# Pinot Noir Words of Wisdom



## stickman

Just wondering if anyone has experience with Pinot Noir from grapes fresh or frozen. My wife doesn't drink much wine, but this year she requested a Pinot Noir, and who am I to refuse? Most of my experience is with Cab/Bordeaux type blends; have not yet made a pinot. I have read a lot of information on the web, and the general consensus is that this grape is finicky to grow and convert to wine. 

This Friday 20 pails of frozen grapes are arriving, 10 Pinot Noir, 8 Sangiovese, and 2 Syrah. So far, I'm not planning anything crazy, the pinot will be fermented with RC212, and I was expecting to do a standard sequential ML. I might consider doing a co-inoculation, just not sure if I want to experiment with this batch.

The pinot Noir numbers as reported:
Brix 23.6
TA 8.1 g/l
PH 3.32
YAN 369 ppm

I'll re-measure Brix, TA, and PH once I get them thawed. Given that the YAN is fairly high, I was only planning on a couple of small doses of Supervit and Superfood, primarily for the vitamins and micro nutrients, though I know RC212 gets hungry.

Three days cold soak is automatic during thawing, not sure if I should deliberately extend it. Lallzyme EX-V is on hand.

More than 10 years ago I talked to an assistant winemaker at a winery that uses these grapes, and at that time, they were doing an extended skin contact between 20 and 30 days post fermentation. I tasted the wine and it was very good.

I'm planning to hold fermentation liquid temperature to not exceed 82F, maybe 87F cap temperature, though I have read about some arguing for higher temps.

Aging will be in a 30gal flex tank, I have Mercier French oak medium toast staves on hand.

Any experience or handling considerations would be appreciated.


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## Boatboy24

There was a good article on making Pinot in Winemaker earlier this year. I've been wanting to do one, but there's so much bad PN out there, I've been intimidated to try. Maybe next fall - the cellar is getting full and I might not cry too much if I have to dump a batch.


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## ceeaton

I purchased a Chilean juice bucket and a lug (18 lbs) of grapes this Spring. Used RC 212, did a MLF using CH35 (not sure why I didn't use CH16, oh well). My starting numbers were pH 3.65, TA 3.5 g/L, SG 1.086 before grape addition (old pH meter used). Don't know the YAN but I just yawned. I adjusted with tartaric acid to pH 3.33 (overshot). I did two additions (split total in half, one addition at fermentation onset, other around 1.060 as I noticed a H2S aroma starting up). 

Just went up and measured it (cold stabilizing in my garage below 40*F) and got a pH of 3.40 and TA of about 8 g/L (didn't let it warm up too much so the readings may be off a bit, used new pH meter). The aroma is quite nice at this point (could smell it even in the cold garage when I took the airlock off to get my 15 ml sample), has nice color (used Lallzyme EX-V, some Opti-red and Booster Rouge). Added 1 oz of Hungarian M+ cubes when I pitched the MLB. Later added a French M+ Winestix which has been in there for about three months.

First PN I've ever attempted. I can tell it will be at least a nice drinkable wine, just weighing options as to how much longer I leave that Winestix in there, as I can taste the oak and don't want to overdo it and hide some of the nice fruity characteristics the young wine is exhibiting at this point.

So that is what I've experienced, not wisdom at this point, but maybe after I do 20 more PN's.

Good luck with your new adventure!


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## Stressbaby

Just curious, why keep the fermentation temp down?

Also, why co-inoculate? Winemakers with way more experience than I have say it is too risky.


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## Johnd

Stressbaby said:


> Also, why co-inoculate? Winemakers with way more experience than I have say it is too risky.



There are pros and cons regarding every MLB inoculation timing, dig on the net long enough and you can talk yourself out of any of them. I've typically done it sequentially, but just completed my first co-inoculation, with good success. My reason for giving it a go, was that I had some high Brix must, and would have some ABV's approaching 15% after AF was complete, an inhospitable environment, but not impossible. 

I pitched after AF was underway for a couple days and never looked back. Pressed on schedule, racked the wine off of the gross lees two days later, two weeks after that, the cabs were done, the PS two weeks later. The Merlot is still poking along. 

I'm not advocating either timing, both have worked for me thus far. Co-inoculation was much easier and finished earlier in the process, maybe I just lucked out........


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## stickman

Stressbaby said:


> Just curious, why keep the fermentation temp down?
> 
> Also, why co-inoculate? Winemakers with way more experience than I have say it is too risky.



I'm just trying to stay within the temperature range given by Lalvin for RC212 and keep the fermentation stress free and clean. I found a pinot Noir fermentation guide provided by Laffort, but it looks more like an additive sales sheet than anything else. Surprisingly they indicate rather cool fermentation at 72F to 77F.

I agree with Johns comments on co-inoculation, many pros and cons either way; I will probably stay with sequential for now. What I like about the co-inoculation concept, is that adding the ML culture early provides significant competition to any spoilage bacteria that may have survived the initial sulfite addition. It's kind of like planting a lawn, you put the grass seed down before the weed seeds germinate. 

View attachment pinot-noir winemaking.pdf


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> I'm just trying to stay within the temperature range given by Lalvin for RC212 and keep the fermentation stress free and clean. I found a pinot Noir fermentation guide provided by Laffort, but it looks more like an additive sales sheet than anything else. Surprisingly they indicate rather cool fermentation at 72F to 77F.
> 
> I agree with Johns comments on co-inoculation, many pros and cons either way; I will probably stay with sequential for now. What I like about the co-inoculation concept, is that adding the ML culture early provides significant competition to any spoilage bacteria that may have survived the initial sulfite addition. It's kind of like planting a lawn, you put the grass seed down before the weed seeds germinate.



As we talk about all of the time here, we all have different taste in wine that should guide our production techniques and processes. I haven't done a pinot from grapes, but if I did, my taste in wine would lead me to make it as big as I could, cold soak, enzymatic extraction, heat spike in the upper 80's, vigorous punchdowns, as much time on skins as I could get, some good time in an oak barrel, you get the picture. 

I wouldn't produce a pinot that exhibited the light, delicate characteristics and subtle nuances that some folks just love about pinot, because that's not what I like.

Depending upon either what you prefer, or upon what you desire to produce, it seems that should guide your processes. Cold soak, no enzymes, delicate yeast, lower and controlled fermentation temps, gentle punchdowns and extraction, less time on skins, would yield a much different wine than the one described above. Maybe a wine that's lighter, fruitier, more aromatic, lighter tannins could be produced.


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## JohnT

I have made several batches of pinot over the years. 

A good pinot is a great thing. The grape tends to run a lot lower in color extraction than, say, a merlot. At first, I was put off by the lighter color (being a fan of big and bold), but I have to say that Pinot it MEANT to be lighter! 

IMHO, pinot has a much more delicate taste and flavor. Where I first was disappointed in the color and body, I ended up thinking that extended maceration would have actually made the wine less enjoyable. Again, this is strictly my own opinion. 

Each batch I have made was with a hot and fast fermentation lasting usually 6 days. I found that the result also like a good oaking to make the wine even more complex. 

In short, I would forego any more cold soak than needed to thaw, grip-it-and-rip-it on the fermentation (allow temps even into the high 80's), keep the RC-212 well fed, rackoff the gross lees ASAP, and give it a good long oaking.. 

--- again this is just my opinion ---


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## DoctorCAD

Personally, I like an unoaked Pinot.


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## Redbird1

JohnT said:


> I have made several batches of pinot over the years.
> 
> A good pinot is a great thing. The grape tends to run a lot lower in color extraction than, say, a merlot. At first, I was put off by the lighter color (being a fan of big and bold), but I have to say that Pinot it MEANT to be lighter!
> 
> IMHO, pinot has a much more delicate taste and flavor. Where I first was disappointed in the color and body, I ended up thinking that extended maceration would have actually made the wine less enjoyable. Again, this is strictly my own opinion.
> 
> Each batch I have made was with a hot and fast fermentation lasting usually 6 days. I found that the result also like a good oaking to make the wine even more complex.
> 
> In short, I would forego any more cold soak than needed to thaw, grip-it-and-rip-it on the fermentation (allow temps even into the high 80's), keep the RC-212 well fed, rackoff the gross lees ASAP, and give it a good long oaking..
> 
> --- again this is just my opinion ---


I've always read that whites should be fermented cooler and slower in an effort to reduce blowing off the more delicate flavors, so it seems a bit counterintuitive to have a hot and fast fermentation on a wine with delicate taste and flavor. Perhaps reds behave differently than whites. Can you share your reasoning for the grip-it-and-rip-it approach?


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## mfzona

If you want it dark, you need really extended maceration on the skins. Color extraction is tuff with this thick skinned grape. If you don't mind color in between rose and your merlot, you can ferment just like any other red.


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## JohnT

Redbird1 said:


> I've always read that whites should be fermented cooler and slower in an effort to reduce blowing off the more delicate flavors, so it seems a bit counterintuitive to have a hot and fast fermentation on a wine with delicate taste and flavor. Perhaps reds behave differently than whites. Can you share your reasoning for the grip-it-and-rip-it approach?


 
I do not know if I agree with ALL whites having a cold fermentation. It all depends on what you like. I prefer my wines less fruity and hot fermentation will result in wines that are a lot less fruity. Chardonnay, for example, I prefer to be dry and not fruity, but a Riesling I like cold ferment to keep the fruit tones.

Same is true with pinot noir. With a hot fermentation, IMHO, the resulting wine still has a delicate flavor, but just not as fruity. To my tastes, this works well.


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## Redbird1

JohnT said:


> I do not know if I agree with ALL whites having a cold fermentation. It all depends on what you like. I prefer my wines less fruity and hot fermentation will result in wines that are a lot less fruity. Chardonnay, for example, I prefer to be dry and not fruity, but a Riesling I like cold ferment to keep the fruit tones.
> 
> Same is true with pinot noir. With a hot fermentation, IMHO, the resulting wine still has a delicate flavor, but just not as fruity. To my tastes, this works well.


Makes sense. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!


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## stickman

Thanks for the responses, like most topics in winemaking, it's a mixed bag. I looked at some additional information online as well as in books that I have here, and it appears that most of the so called "reserve" pinot gets a cold soak as well as some extended maceration, somewhere between 18 and 30 days total skin contact. Many of the fresh grape fermentations have 20% to 30% of the juice drained to increase the skin to juice ratio, not really an option with frozen must. Barrel aging seems shorter on average than typical, maybe 9 to 12 months for lighter styles, and 12 to 17 months for reserve. Being the first Pinot, I'll probably be a bit cautious, but I'll post pics and make some decisions along the way. One way or another we will have fun. For the moment I can relax, the shipment has been delayed until Wednesday next week.


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## berrycrush

I did 100 pound Chilean Pinot this year, my first time too. I broke them up into 6 primary fermenters with three different yeasts and two styles: destemed and whole-cluster, so I end up with six one gallon jars plus some extra. Whole cluster ferments a bit slower then the detemed, Assmanhausen yeast is the slowest to start. The most noticeable thing about Pinot is its acidity, way higher than Cab and Merlots, color wise they are still pretty dense, you can see in the pictures. MLF has mixed results, some completed and some not fully. I plan let them age in the one gallon jars, no oak at all.

See pics at 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/albums/72157667724200816


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## sdelli

I made a California Pinot Noir from fresh grapes a couple years ago. Turned out fantastic! Just remember with this variety. Less is more! Don't get carried away into your deep winemaking ideas. Let it be... Use a neutral barrel if possible. I used RC-212 then mlf then 8 months in a nuetral barrel.


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## stickman

Well this is just the first peek at the must during the thaw. I've got the garage heat turned up as it's been quite cold lately, pails have been thawing since Thursday night, they're at 50F now. Added 30ppm sulfite and will check temperature in the morning, add enzyme and get yeast going.


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## sdelli

Looks great. What are you fermenting in?


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## stickman

I'm doing two different batches, the Pinot Noir will be in the stainless vat, and the Sangiovese Syrah 80/20 blend will be in two Brutes. I added the Lallzyme EXV and Lysozyme earlier this morning, and added the 4 gallon RC212 yeast starter (using RC212 on everything) around 3:00pm. I'll dump the pails into the fermenters sometime tomorrow, the garage heat is set and maintaining 70F, expecting -13F outdoors tonight. I'll post some pics once everything is dumped tomorrow.


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## heatherd

I agree with those who say that they make pinot with restrained amounts of oak. 

I've made two batches of pinot, one with oak and one without. I really like the one without better. I prefer to taste the delicate aspects of the wine. My two cents, but everyone's palette is different.

If I were making pinot for my spouse I would find out whether they are drinking pinots with more or less oak. I would taste the commercial ones that they prefer to get a sense of the oakiness.


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## stickman

@heatherd thanks for reminding me about the oak, the pinot she likes is aged in neutral barrels, Mahoney Vineyards, in fact, the grapes I purchased are from the same vineyard, so I guess I have no excuse if the wine doesn't turn out good.
I dumped everything into the fermenters, the Sangiovese only got a half dose of Lallzyme EXV as I knocked over the cup of solution before it was all added, I think I said a few "words of wisdom" at that point. The fermentation is just getting started, the must is still a bit cool.


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> I'm doing two different batches, the Pinot Noir will be in the stainless vat, and the Sangiovese Syrah 80/20 blend will be in two Brutes. I added the Lallzyme EXV and Lysozyme earlier this morning, and added the 4 gallon RC212 yeast starter (using RC212 on everything) around 3:00pm. I'll dump the pails into the fermenters sometime tomorrow, the garage heat is set and maintaining 70F, expecting -13F outdoors tonight. I'll post some pics once everything is dumped tomorrow.



Lysozyme? Not going to MLF?


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## stickman

I'm going to do the standard sequential ML using CH16. I've been using a low dose 150ppm Lysozyme for the past 5 years to reduce bacterial activity during the early thawing and fermentation stage, and I've also used it after ML. The lysozyme activity drops off very quickly in a red wine with significant tannins present. I have not seen any delay of ML after fermentation when using this low dose. I'm sure that most of the time it is not needed, but my decision to use it is primarily based on my perception of higher risk associated with unseen preprocessed fruit.


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## stickman

The cap came up, so I drained some must to have a look and add a little oxygen. Still a little cool at 63F. Fruit and berry aromas are very nice.


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## Boatboy24

Nice color!!


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## ceeaton

I smelled the berry flavors when I opened the post. I must have finally got that smell-a-vision to work properly...


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## stickman

Yes, I'd say the Lallzyme is working, the Sangiovese only got a half dose, but there is 10% (1 Pail) Syrah in the batch that was absolutely black/purple. I have another pail of the Syrah still thawing as I received it late, I guess my super Tuscan will be 80/20 Sangiovese Syrah. The Pinot is definitely a different hue.


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## stickman

The Pinot is down to 12 brix, the cap temp was 87F yesterday and 86F today. This Pinot is truly different than any other wine I've made so far, the strawberry/raspberry aromas are intoxicating, I think I've just been hooked, now the challenge is getting the wine through the process and into bottle capturing some of these aromatics. A lot of things can happen between now and then.

The Sangiovese is at 10 brix, added the last of the nutrients, looks and smells good, hopefully it will finish without H2S, I know this RC212 can be trouble.

Just a few pics.


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## Johnd

You're getting me fired up, my frozen musts from Spain are scheduled in the first week of 2017.


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## stickman

I thought the frozen must from Spain was interesting also. I'm on vacation through the new year so this timing worked out well for me, although the Holidays are a crazy time.


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> I thought the frozen must from Spain was interesting also. I'm on vacation through the new year so this timing worked out well for me, although the Holidays are a crazy time.



I've been communicating with the supplier, it was supposed to be delivered just after thanksgiving, but he ran into problems. It seems that when shipping individual pails of must, no alarms are set off at US Customs (must coming in from Canada). My order was to be shipped on a pallet, which saves bucks if you have enough pails. The pallet set off a chain of events including USDA certifications, need for a Customs Agent, etc, which delayed shipping. I pushed it back to first week of January. Good way to kick off 2017.


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## stickman

@Johnd The new year will be here before you know it.

I pulled a sample of the Pinot while doing a drain and return. The color looks a little light , which I suspect is typical of most Pinot that doesn't have Mega Purple or other additions. Really nice, it's at 5 brix and drinkable now if you like sweet sparkling Pinot.


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## Johnd

I like it @stickman! I'm keeping tabs and anxious to hear how it comes out. You've got me wanting to do a Pinot now.... I think this spring, instead of doing Chileans, I'm going to get a few frozen pails from Brehm to get my fix.


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## Boatboy24

Looks good, stickman. A little light, maybe. But as you probably know, there are solids in there. Once they settle out, you should have a darker color. And that's a small sample too.

BTW: A sweet, sparkling Pinot Noir is suddenly sounding very good.


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## stickman

Decided to press yesterday as the neighbor was off work, otherwise I would have had to press by myself, sg was around 1.0, so it was a little earlier than the usual .992. It looks like there was some color left in the pinot skins, so I put a couple of gallon bags into the freezer for future kit use, or maybe I'll add them back to one of the current carboys for further extraction. At this stage the flavors are clean, the Pinot definitely has greater fruit and aromatics than the Sangiovese, but I suppose that's expected.

Photos
Sangiovese Press
Sangiovese Glass
Pinot Noir Press
Pinot Noir Skins


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## philbard

I do a lot of Pinot Noir, living in the Willamette Valley. Besides the quality of the fruit, fermentation temperatures and yeast make the biggest differences in how it turns out. All the other phases, cold soak, extended maceration, etc matter too but less I think. A heat spike early in primary seems to provide bigger fruit extraction, too long at high temps can blow off your nose, but a day or so doesn't seem to harm it. If you stay cooler you will get a little better bouquet but will not have as much extraction. I often get to the upper 80's or even 90. Frankly, I believe the growing conditions play a far larger role. CA Pinots are grown in hotter conditions and when we drink them here in Oregon they almost always seem over the top, lacking in the subtle nuances that wines from cooler climates provide.

One thing that is constant, Pinot is always changing. Month to month it will have different personalities, especially in barrel. In May it will be fruity and have great body, in June it will seem to have gone into hibernation. Not until we have been 1, or better, 2 years in the bottle do we attempt to judge the results definitively.

Good luck


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## stickman

@philbard thanks for the comments. This is the first Pinot for me, so I don't have anything for comparison. These grapes are from the Carneros AVA and I also have access to the White Salmon Underwood WA vineyard, they are the best available to me. I can tell already that I'll be making more in the future; after 25 years of making Cab blends, that I'm very satisfied with, this batch of Pinot is making me think.......

Thanks again


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## stickman

Just an update; I only did one racking two days after the press. Did the first chromatogram a couple of days ago and it looks like they are finished with ML; the CH16 culture was added Jan 1, but the wine was still fermenting at .996sg. It took longer to reach .992 than my usual DV10, but I guess that's expected with RC212. The temp in the storage area has been steady at 68F. The Pinot PH ended up at 3.70, and the Sangiovese is at 3.76. Ill be conducting a little taste testing, and possible acid touch-up over the next couple of days, and will then sulfite and rack.


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> Just an update; I only did one racking two days after the press. Did the first chromatogram a couple of days ago and it looks like they are finished with ML; the CH16 culture was added Jan 1, but the wine was still fermenting at .996sg. It took longer to reach .992 than my usual DV10, but I guess that's expected with RC212. The temp in the storage area has been steady at 68F. The Pinot PH ended up at 3.70, and the Sangiovese is at 3.76. Ill be conducting a little taste testing, and possible acid touch-up over the next couple of days, and will then sulfite and rack.



Very nice, that's the kind of chromo you gotta love to see! So how are they tasting and what's your oak plan, if any, for the pinot?


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## stickman

The taste is as expected, quite a bit of co2, and a little leesy, the Pinot sample took about 3hrs in an open glass to get back to the original fruit profile, good fruit and very supple at this point, not much tannin that I can detect as it seems smooth. I couldn't resist putting into the 30gal tank one French oak medium toast stave at the same time I added the ML culture. For a Cab I would usually use 4 or 5 staves, but I know this is a completely different wine, and as discussed earlier, I don't want to cover the fruit with oak. The 6 gal carboy I left unoaked. The color looks reasonable, maybe a little light, but similar to Pinots from this area in the Carneros.


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## Johnd

Looks beautiful!


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## stickman

I moved ahead with the Pinot and Sangiovese post ML racking. I used a Brute as a temporary holding vessel while I cleaned the Flex tank. With the Pinot I didn't want to do that additional handling, so I went from tank to tank. I added tartaric acid at .5g/L to get the pH of the Sangiovese down to 3.70. Sulfite was added to both batches at 50ppm for an initial dose, I'll probably check and adjust in a week. So far the taste and aromas are nice, the Sangiovese has a slight coffee aroma at this point, smooth and nothing offensive.


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## stickman

Just updating, I did some tasting and final adjustment of the PH today, I added another .5g/l tartaric acid to the Sangiovese for a total of 1g/l, and then added 1g/l tartaric to the Pinot. The taste is good so far, still leesy with some fruit showing through, nothing unusual. I was too lazy to do TA's, the PH went up significantly from the start. I attached a juice panel I received from the supplier for the Sangiovese, it is interesting to see the ratio of malic to tartaric acid, I suppose it gives you some idea of what is lost during ML conversion.

Pinot Noir

Brix 23.6, TA 8.1 g/l, PH 3.32, After AF PH 3.52, After ML PH 3.70, adjusted final PH 3.55

Sangiovese/Syrah co-ferment

Sangiovese Brix 23.2, TA 7.65, PH 3.32 
Syrah Brix 26.5, TA 5.60, PH 3.88
Blend Brix 23.9, TA 7.20, PH 3.59, After AF PH 3.64, After ML PH 3.76, adj final PH 3.60


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## stickman

Re-incorporating the lees back into my friends 2016 Amador Sangiovese. The wine crushed Oct 1st, fermented, was racked twice after pressing, and then racked and sulfited after ML completion Nov 3rd. It has been tank aged on 5 French oak staves since then. Did some tasting and put the reserved lees back in today. So far so good, slight grippy oak tannins, but hopefully the lees will smooth everything together.


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## stickman

Updating this thread; I decided to do some so2 testing, the following wines are in the cellar and the current numbers are:

Sonoma Sangiovese/Syrah blend, 36ppm free so2, 3.61 pH, added 10ppm so2 today
Sonoma Pinot Noir, 33ppm Free so2, 3.55 pH, added 10ppm so2
Amador Sangiovese, 20ppm free so2, 3.72 pH, added 20ppm so2

I included a couple photos, or it didn't happen, right?


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## JohnT

How do you keep that wood floor so clean?? I have a concrete floor in mine that I pressure wash every 6 months and mine still looks bad.


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## stickman

That floor is 3/4" hardwood that has a factory finish, so it is very durable. I've had plenty of spills and overflows etc., but they are easy to clean if you get to them quickly. The seams between the boards are the weak point, so a floor that was finished in place may be better in that respect. When I built the cellar, I had no intent of using those materials, that was my Wife's idea. If left to me, it would have been something simple and functional, like 4" styrofoam walls and ceiling on a sealed concrete floor; who am I to complain?


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> That floor is 3/4" hardwood that has a factory finish, so it is very durable. I've had plenty of spills and overflows etc., but they are easy to clean if you get to them quickly. The seams between the boards are the weak point, so a floor that was finished in place may be better in that respect. When I built the cellar, I had no intent of using those materials, that was my Wife's idea. If left to me, it would have been something simple and functional, like 4" styrofoam walls and ceiling on a sealed concrete floor; who am I to complain?



I don't know, I kinda like the floor. I'm sure the seams can be a pain to clean, but your whole area is neat, clean, squared away, looks really good.........


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## cgallamo

Glad you updated the post. I was missing in action for a few months and had not seen it. Very cool to see your entire process, equipment, and methodology.


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## JohnT

I like the floor also. It looks WAY nicer than my sad, tired old concrete slab. It is just that it looks so neat and clean.....


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## stickman

I have only made three kits in 27 years of wine-making, but I couldn't resist starting a Pinot Noir Kit using some skins reserved frozen from the batch above, interestingly the kit came with RC212 rather than the typical EC1118. It will be interesting to taste the kit vs the frozen must. I still have over a hundred gallons of various wines yet to bottle, my share is only about 40gal.


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## balatonwine

I am only commenting on this now as I just read this tread (only joined this forum a few months ago) and saw there was no comment on this issue specifically:



stickman said:


> I have read a lot of information on the web, and the general consensus is that this grape is finicky to grow



I grow Pino Noir. I have found it not difficult to grow at all. In fact, it is one of the easiest grapes to grow.

Pinot Noir was actually one of the varieties I selected specifically to be a challenge, and it has been the least challenging grape variety to grow for me. No more difficult than Pinot Gris, which I have a lot of (which makes sense, since these are basically the same grape with just a few minor genetic differences). 

Yes, this grape has about half the yield of my Welschriesling / Italian Riesling, but that is again no different from my Pinot Gris. And that is just the nature of the grape, and does not make it perse "difficult". And it is actually, with Pinot Gris, the most disease free of the varieties I grow. For example, my Gewürztraminer and Welschriesling are far more susceptible to disease like powdery mildew or bunch rot than either Pinot. My Turán is more susceptible to frost than either Pinot (in fact, of the two, my Pinot Gris has had more frost damage than the Pinot Noir, and even the frost damage on all but very young vines of Pinot Gris was negligible).

The grape does have more narrow environmental requirements than other grapes, but that does not make it a "difficult" plant. The only difficulty there arises when a person tries to force it to grow in environments the grape is not suited for. People then wrongly blame the vine. But really, it is the person who is being difficult by not realizing this variety simply has more environmental limitations than other grape varieties.



stickman said:


> and convert to wine.



No problem at all to convert into wine in general. But, "therein lies the rub" (Hamlet, Act 3, scene 1). What type of wine? A lot of Pinot Noir is used to make Champaign or sparkling wine. Some is used to make a rosé wine (which is what I do). My rosés are easy to make. The "difficulty" in wine making is trying to make a red wine. That is "the rub". This grape's thin skin (not a thick skin as incorrectly stated) and chemical composition requires special treatment (i.e. extended maceration, etc), as is it's tendency to greatly express the local terroir; ergo, no two red wines from Pinot Noir from different locations will be the same. That makes it "difficult" to make a wine for the mass market which expects a "consistent" wine. But makes it a wonderful grape to express local terroir. So it really is not "that" difficult, just not "consistent" (again, when grown appropriately within its environmental limits). But, quite frankly, I like that most about Pinot Noir: Every one is unique, making it one of the least boring read wine on the planet.


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## stickman

Just an update; had some time to do so2 testing, the following wines are in the cellar and the current numbers are:

Sonoma Sangiovese/Syrah blend, Tank 30ppm free so2, 3.60 pH, nothing added today
Sonoma Pinot Noir, Tank 30ppm Free so2, 3.53 pH, nothing added today
Sonoma Pinot Noir, 6gal carboy 32ppm Free so2, 3.55 pH, nothing added today
Amador Sangiovese, 22.7ppm free so2, 3.70 pH, added 17.6ppm so2 today

The owner of the Amador Sangiovese would like to bottle in the next couple of months, so this may be the last sulfite addition, but I'll check again pre-bottling to be sure it is in a reasonable range once it has settled and been racked. The wine at this point is not a fruit bomb, but is medium bodied with nice complex berry fruit and oak.

The photos are of the Amador Sangiovese, dropping in a 2gr so2 tablet, effervescence as the tablet dissolves while sinking to the bottom of the tank, sample before stirring the lees, after stirring the lees, on the right is my 2015 Sonoma Cabernet used as top up, which is showing nice aromatics, but is still tightly wrapped. The Cabernet is massive compared to the Sangiovese.

Boy I'm getting old, my hand has alligator skin, I guess I need to drink more wine to increase my anti-oxidant intake.


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## ceeaton

Yea, don't like the skin on my hands. Starting to remind me of my grandpa's and I'm only 54+ yrs old. More red wine sounds like the ticket!

I'll implement a new wine infusion program and get back to you...I'm sure the results will be positive in nature.


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## sour_grapes

ceeaton said:


> Yea, don't like the skin on my hands. Starting to remind me of my grandpa's and I'm only 54+ yrs old. More red wine sounds like the ticket!
> 
> I'll implement a new wine infusion program and get back to you...I'm sure the results will be positive in nature.



Yeah... they'll seem better for about 6 hours! After that, the effect seems to fade...


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## Boatboy24

I always thought the alligator issue was due to too much wine and skin dehydration. But what do I know. I'll test the antioxidant theory with you, though I think liver damage might just outweigh the skin benefits.


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## stickman

Just doing some quality control tasting with my 2016 Sonoma Carneros Pinot Noir currently in a flex tank, on the right is a 2014 Lamelson Pinot Thea's Selection from Willamette Valley. Not too much difference in appearance. They are both nice, however the Lamelson needed about 5 to 10 minutes to blow off a papery alcoholic aroma, I wasn't impressed, probably a little co2, but afterwords nice berry aromas and flavors are showing. I actually prefer the Carneros Pinot at this point, it is showing brilliant raspberry aromas and flavors with greater depth; makes me think of bottling it right now, but I'll hold off for several more months. It's hard to believe it will get any better, I've been doing this for a long time and it still makes me a little nervous until it's in the bottle.

Just for fun I checked the pH on both; Lamelson 3.36, Carneros 3.51.


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## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> Yea, don't like the skin on my hands. Starting to remind me of my grandpa's and I'm only 54+ yrs old. More red wine sounds like the ticket!
> 
> I'm 54+ as well. The question is +what.


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## ibglowin

OK so why do a side by side taste test on an Oregon PN vs a California PN? They taste nothing alike!


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## stickman

ibglowin said:


> OK so why do a side by side taste test on an Oregon PN vs a California PN? They taste nothing alike!



Mike, you're right, but my intent was really to taste what I had in the tank. The Willamette Pinot was just what I had in the cellar and thought I would open and use it for top-up. I figured I might as well do a comparison since the bottle was open, didn't want to waste..........


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## stickman

I racked the Amador Sangiovese today, went into demijohns and will stay in the cellar until a few weeks before bottling day when we'll move it to the high rack. Very nice wine, good fruit, a little forward oak at this point, but that will harmonize in the bottle. PH is 3.70, I'll check sulfite content a little closer to bottling.


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## ibglowin

What kind of oak adjunct are you using?


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## stickman

This batch I used 3 - Mercier French Oak medium toast, and 2 evOAK French Classic medium plus convection toast. The Mercier medium toast looks more like medium plus based on appearance; the toast is somewhat variable along the stave. The evOAK convection toast is very uniform light brown in appearance and matches the marketing claim.


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## stickman

Just updating; we finally bottled the Amador Sangiovese yesterday. It ended up being close to 33gal with the two demijohns and one 3gal carboy. It went into a mix of regular bottles, some magnums, and two 24btl cases of splits. I tested the sulfite level and it was a bit low at 22ppm free, I recommended to raise it, but it's not my wine, so the owner decided to bottle half as is, and the other half was raised by 12ppm by dosing the bottles with 1ml of a calculated sulfite solution. We dosed the bottles because there was a small amount of sediment in the demijohns that we didn't want to disturb by mixing. The wine is very nice at this point; we'll see what happens in the bottle.


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## Redbird1

On first glance, it looked like you were running wine through those black iron pipe fittings, but I can't tell what's going on inside that tee. Those aren't made to handle anything potable. 

Brown paper on the carboys is a great idea. I have tons of that around the house. I'll be stealing that idea.


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## stickman

The wine does not run through the tee, it goes straight through the 1/2" polyethylene tube which is compression sealed inside the adapter below the tee. This allows you to adjust how much of the tube extends into the bottle to get the right fill height once the bottle is removed. The sealed annular space in the lower portion of the adapter forces the bottle to vent through the overflow tube. The black pipe is only used to provide enough weight to kink the silicone tubing which shuts off the flow when the bottle is lowered. It is not the best system by any means, but it works for my purposes.


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## Redbird1

stickman said:


> The wine does not run through the tee, it goes straight through the 1/2" polyethylene tube which is compression sealed inside the tee. This allows you to adjust how much of the tube extends into the bottle to get the right fill height once the bottle is removed. The sealed annular space in the lower portion of the tee forces the bottle to vent through the overflow tube. The black pipe is only used to provide enough weight to kink the silicone tubing which shuts off the flow when the bottle is lowered. It is not the best system by any means, but it works for my purposes.


Makes sense. I was wondering what that smaller tube was for. 

I'm a big proponent of "If it works, go for it," so that is my kind of device.


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## stickman

I managed to get the Carneros Sangiovese and Pinot Noir filtered and pumped up to the bottling rack. The Sangiovese had a ton of tartrates at the bottom, looks like a folded blanket. I ran a sulfite test and found both fairly low, Sangiovese was at 17.9 ppm, and the Pinot was at 12.8, so I added 17.6 ppm to each tank. We'll be bottling this stuff sometime this week. I'll need the tank space soon as I just received another 1000 lbs of frozen must. I'll be doing two different Cabernet blends; I'll post in a separate thread.


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## sdelli

Who do you make all that wine for?


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## stickman

Two other people are involved; one guy makes his wine here during the fall with fresh grapes that he sources from a local vendor, the other guy is a neighbor that has a share of the wine I produce from frozen must during the winter. My share of the wine is is around 30 to 40gal and is primarily for myself and family parties we host, a few special gifts, as well as the occasional bottle I bring when visiting others. It's always an adventure to open bottles of wine throughout the aging process, and I found that if I don't make at least 30gal annually, I'll run out of the wine before it has had a chance to mature.


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## ceeaton

stickman said:


> ,,. It's always an adventure to open bottles of wine throughout the aging process, and I found that if I don't make at least 30gal annually, I'll run out of the wine before it has had a chance to mature.


 One good thing about the flextanks is that they keep you from "tipping" to get samples out! Maybe I should invest in one or two...


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## sdelli

stickman said:


> Two other people are involved; one guy makes his wine here during the fall with fresh grapes that he sources from a local vendor, the other guy is a neighbor that has a share of the wine I produce from frozen must during the winter. My share of the wine is is around 30 to 40gal and is primarily for myself and family parties we host, a few special gifts, as well as the occasional bottle I bring when visiting others. It's always an adventure to open bottles of wine throughout the aging process, and I found that if I don't make at least 30gal annually, I'll run out of the wine before it has had a chance to mature.



That is not too bad. I end up making around 60 to 75 gal a year. It is a lot but it is nice always drinking 4 year old wine!


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## Johnd

@stickman , just curious for an update on your ‘16 Pinot and Sangiovese. I’m sure they’re bottled by now, and approaching 2 years old, how are they tasting? Any lessons learned to share?


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## stickman

John thanks for asking; we're getting ready for another 1,000 pounds of frozen must, mostly Cab including some Red Mountain fruit, which should arrive in the next couple of months.

We did the main bottling for both wines in Dec 2017, and had a 5gal carboy of each left as unfiltered reserve. We just got around to bottling the reserve two weeks ago. Both wines are very different than the typical Cabernet I'm used to making, more lean fresh and crisp style.

At this point the Pinot really stands out, it has the strawberry, raspberry, and cranberry type of profile that I have not seen in any wine I've made before; however, I've never made a Pinot before so I have nothing to compare. I will be making more of this in the future.

The Sangiovese is still closed at this point, more complex, fine tannins, but less fruit overall than the Pinot, nothing like the ultra ripe 32 Brix Chalk Hill Sangiovese I made back in 2004, that wine was massive fruit from the day it was fermented to the day it went into bottle. I suspect the current Sangiovese has a greater potential to improve in the bottle, unlike the 2004 which never improved though it was always very good (I still have one bottle and one magnum left in the cellar).

When comparing the reserve vs the initial bottling, the flavor profiles are the same, but both wines have a greater CO2 content in the earlier bottling, maybe a little too much, I was a bit overprotective given the sensitive nature of these wines, but that will all be part of the fun in future tastings.

The photos are of the final racking and SO2 adjustment before bottling of the reserve wines. The glass is the reserve Sangiovese, alongside the fumbled Riedel glass (they don't last long in my cellar).


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> John thanks for asking; we're getting ready for another 1,000 pounds of frozen must, mostly Cab including some Red Mountain fruit, which should arrive in the next couple of months.
> 
> We did the main bottling for both wines in Dec 2017, and had a 5gal carboy of each left as unfiltered reserve. We just got around to bottling the reserve two weeks ago. Both wines are very different than the typical Cabernet I'm used to making, more lean fresh and crisp style.
> 
> At this point the Pinot really stands out, it has the strawberry, raspberry, and cranberry type of profile that I have not seen in any wine I've made before; however, I've never made a Pinot before so I have nothing to compare. I will be making more of this in the future.
> 
> The Sangiovese is still closed at this point, more complex, fine tannins, but less fruit overall than the Pinot, nothing like the ultra ripe 32 Brix Chalk Hill Sangiovese I made back in 2004, that wine was massive fruit from the day it was fermented to the day it went into bottle. I suspect the current Sangiovese has a greater potential to improve in the bottle, unlike the 2004 which never improved though it was always very good (I still have one bottle and one magnum left in the cellar).
> 
> When comparing the reserve vs the initial bottling, the flavor profiles are the same, but both wines have a greater CO2 content in the earlier bottling, maybe a little too much, I was a bit overprotective given the sensitive nature of these wines, but that will all be part of the fun in future tastings.
> 
> The photos are of the final racking and SO2 adjustment before bottling of the reserve wines. The glass is the reserve Sangiovese, alongside the fumbled Riedel glass (they don't last long in my cellar).



Very nice update, thanks for taking the time to do it. Just curious, what determination did you make that caused you to set aside a portion of the Pinot as “Reserve”? Anything more than unfiltered?


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## stickman

@Johnd Both of the wines left were unoaked, unfiltered, and sitting on a good layer of fine lees. I wish I could say it was a well thought out decision, we just decided to leave the two carboys for after the holidays, which was based on how we felt at the time after bottling 60 gallons, no real schedule planned, but as you know, one month turned to two months etc. I finally said to my neighbor WTF we have to get this stuff out of here, the 2018 fruit will be here soon enough, and we still have around 70 gallons of 2017 Cab to bottle.


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