# Adventures in Wild Fermentation



## Cynewulf (Oct 5, 2020)

I thought I might document what I'm trying this year in case it helps anyone else out. I have a small vineyard in northern Virginia with about 75 grapevines that I've struggled to get going over the past four growing seasons. It's gone from all Cabernet Franc to about one third Cab Franc and two thirds hybrids due to disease and other things. I wasn't able to get much this year but am ready to get started making wine so bought three lugs of grapes from California through Washington Winemakers - Grenache, Carignan, and Syrah - along with a bucket of Grenache juice. My hope is to very roughly imitate a blend from a French winery in Fitou, Domaine Grand Guilhem, that I had recently that is 55% Grenache, 30% Carignan, and 15% Syrah with up to 15% of the bunches not destemmed. Not a fancy wine but exactly the kind of wine I love in France. I love old school, old world wines with savory notes, low/no oak, and a bit of acidity. It seems harder to find them in the States, at least at a price I can afford, so I'm hoping to learn how to implement some of what they do, including relying on wild, native, indigenous, ambient (whatever we're supposed to call them) yeasts and low sulfites if I can. 

To prepare, I thought I'd try making a 'pied de cuve' or wild yeast starter from the 15 lbs of Cabernet Franc grapes I was able to salvage from my vineyard this year. I picked them Sunday, September 27 and destemmed and crushed them into a bucket. The must measured 18 brix that Sunday and on Tuesday morning there was clear fermentation activity. The SG dropped steadily by about .01 a day until it read 1.020 the morning of Sunday, Oct 4. It had a fruity smell and nothing to suggest spoilage so I decided to use it. One thing to note is that I have never made wine or brewed beer in this house so I don't think there should be any commercial yeast around (I'd actually feel a little better if there was as I reckon it could always jump in to finish the job). The closest winery is 3.5 miles away and there are some breweries a little closer so I suppose maybe their yeasts could make the trip into my vineyard or cellar but I have no idea.

October 3 I picked up the grapes and crushed them with @mainshipfred, reserving around 9-ish lbs of whole clusters and adding 3 gallons of the Grenache juice (kind of wish I had just done all grapes but too late). The starting gravity was 1.096 and pH 3.45. October 4 I added the pied de cuve in the afternoon and by the evening it was bubbling away. October 5 morning the SG was 1.080 with a 3" cap and in the evening SG was 1.070 with a thicker cap. I'm hoping for a relatively slow ferment and would like it to macerate for at least two weeks. I'd prefer longer but I'm starting to reach the limits of my adventurous risk tolerance.

I hope this is of interest and might help someone curious about wild ferments, etc. as I was only able to find a few posts from folks who have done it. I'll try to follow up from time to time to describe how it goes and would also be keen to hear from others that have tried similar or other interesting techniques; especially if you've been successful but even if you weren't.


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 5, 2020)

Following...


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## BI81 (Oct 6, 2020)

Interested to hear your progress, thanks for posting!


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## Jbu50 (Oct 6, 2020)

Very interested to hear how you make out..! 

_(In the meantime just want to share quick story from last week. My neighbour purchased 10 lugs of Central Valley California Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, brought them home, dunked all the grape bunches into a barrel of water, then pulled them out one at a time and rinsed them off with the garden hose and put them on a table to dry briefly before crush and destem. No additives were added, no yeast added, nothing. I assumed the worst would occur - that all the wild yeast were washed off and that the fermentation would be slow and perhaps stop short. BUT, by the end of the third day a huge cap had formed and the must was fermenting feverishly and had a great fruity smell. Ended up fermenting dry to 1.000 at pressing. The wild yeast survived indeed. I was shocked but very pleased as I'd like to try that myself...!)_


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 6, 2020)

we have to remember that all “cultured” yeast was once a “wild“ yeast.


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## VinesnBines (Oct 6, 2020)

I was planning to buy some PV grapes from a local vineyard but the manager forgot and crushed everything on Oct. 1. I was out of town and asked him to put them in cold storage. When I finally picked them up the morning of Oct 5, they were starting to ferment...SG was 1.052. I went on and pitched my yeast and 18 hours later i was down to 1.040. I expect we were using a little wild yeast and whatever cultured spores were floating around the winery. I was planning a yeast combo anyway so I got a head start on the ferm.


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## Cynewulf (Oct 6, 2020)

Jbu50 said:


> Very interested to hear how you make out..!
> 
> _(In the meantime just want to share quick story from last week. My neighbour purchased 10 lugs of Central Valley California Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, brought them home, dunked all the grape bunches into a barrel of water, then pulled them out one at a time and rinsed them off with the garden hose and put them on a table to dry briefly before crush and destem. No additives were added, no yeast added, nothing. I assumed the worst would occur - that all the wild yeast were washed off and that the fermentation would be slow and perhaps stop short. BUT, by the end of the third day a huge cap had formed and the must was fermenting feverishly and had a great fruity smell. Ended up fermenting dry to 1.000 at pressing. The wild yeast survived indeed. I was shocked but very pleased as I'd like to try that myself...!)_


Very interesting - thanks for sharing! I was a little nervous preparing the pied de cuve because there was a good rain a day or two before and I didn’t know if that would have an impact on the yeast but it seemed to start just fine. Based on what I’ve read, I’m also not sure how much depends on what is on the skins vs what is in the ambient environment. How long did it take to ferment to dry?


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## Cynewulf (Oct 6, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> we have to remember that all “cultured” yeast was once a “wild“ yeast.


Absolutely agree. To be honest, the more I read about this subject, the more I suspect that what I like in the wines I was describing is the result of limited activity by what we would consider spoilage organisms, maybe some brettanomyces and/or acetobacter. There is a smell and flavor in some so-called ‘natural wines’ from France and Georgia that I tend to describe as savory, prosciutto-like that I really like. I tasted it again recently after having read more about volatile acidity, and I’m starting to think the smell and taste I’m thinking of may actually be more of a balsamic note and possibly the result of a slightly higher level of VA than we would typically expect in a well made wine but still integrated and not overpowering. Playing with fire...


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## CoteRotie (Oct 6, 2020)

I think UC Davis did a study a while back and found that just about all "wild" (i.e. uninoculated) yeast fermentations finished with a commercial strain (as checked by DNA analysis). However, I think those were all done in commercial wineries. If you've never made wine in this house maybe you have the potential for more "excitement".


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## Cynewulf (Oct 6, 2020)

CoteRotie said:


> I think UC Davis did a study a while back and found that just about all "wild" (i.e. uninoculated) yeast fermentations finished with a commercial strain (as checked by DNA analysis). However, I think those were all done in commercial wineries. If you've never made wine in this house maybe you have the potential for more "excitement".


Excitement mixed with a little terror. I think I’ve seen that study. Originally I was going to wait until I’d had at least one season of using commercial yeast because I wanted to have it in the air to finish the job but the pied de cuve seemed to be working and I don’t stand to lose that much so figured what the heck. There’s a packet of yeast in the fridge if it gets stuck.


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## Cynewulf (Oct 6, 2020)

Day 3:
AM: SG 1.050
PM: SG 1.040

Cellar temp: 66F
Must temp: 70F
Punch downs 3x daily

My commercial beer making brother on the west coast asked for more pictures:


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## VinesnBines (Oct 6, 2020)

NIce! Faster than my wild/commercial ferm. Though I dropped from 1.040 at 6 am to 1.030 at 3 pm. I don't have so many bubbles but a cap of about 7 inches.


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## Jbu50 (Oct 6, 2020)

Cynewulf said:


> Very interesting - thanks for sharing! I was a little nervous preparing the pied de cuve because there was a good rain a day or two before and I didn’t know if that would have an impact on the yeast but it seemed to start just fine. Based on what I’ve read, I’m also not sure how much depends on what is on the skins vs what is in the ambient environment. How long did it take to ferment to dry?


7 days


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## sour_grapes (Oct 6, 2020)

Cynewulf said:


> Excitement mixed with a little terror.



There is a fine line between "terror" and "terroir"!


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## Cynewulf (Oct 8, 2020)

Day 4:
AM: SG 1.026
PM: SG 1.018

Day 5:
AM: SG 1.008
PM: SG 1.004

Cellar temp: 66F
Must temp: 70F
Throttling back to punch downs 1-2x daily


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## Cynewulf (Oct 10, 2020)

Some of these are guesses as everything is slowing down and I don’t have a final gravity hydrometer.

Day 6:
AM: SG 1.000
PM: SG 0.999

Day 7:
AM: SG 0.998
PM: SG 0.997-ish

The plan, such as it is, is to punch down lightly once a day now to wet the cap, then press off the skins when the cap falls.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 11, 2020)

Cynewulf said:


> Absolutely agree. To be honest, the more I read about this subject, the more I suspect that what I like in the wines I was describing is the result of limited activity by what we would consider spoilage organisms, maybe some brettanomyces and/or acetobacter. There is a smell and flavor in some so-called ‘natural wines’ from France and Georgia that I tend to describe as savory, prosciutto-like that I really like. I tasted it again recently after having read more about volatile acidity, and I’m starting to think the smell and taste I’m thinking of may actually be more of a balsamic note and possibly the result of a slightly higher level of VA than we would typically expect in a well made wine but still integrated and not overpowering. Playing with fire...



I think I may have posted this before. I took a short vintner's course and one of the classes we were discussing faults. A couple of bottles of wine with brettanomyces were opened to sample. Not sure what it's supposed to taste like but I didn't find it offensive at all, in fact neither did the majority of the class. Acetobactor on the other hand is a different story.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 11, 2020)

Cynewulf said:


> Some of these are guesses as everything is slowing down and I don’t have a final gravity hydrometer.
> 
> Day 6:
> AM: SG 1.000
> ...



I've never had a cap completely fall even at .994 or 5. Just have to assume it's the CO2 keeping it afloat.


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## Cynewulf (Oct 11, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I've never had a cap completely fall even at .994 or 5. Just have to assume it's the CO2 keeping it afloat.


Thanks, Fred. I maybe should have said that the plan was to let it go for another week or two or until the cap falls, whichever happens first. I was a little disappointed that fermentation went as quickly as it did, even though the must temp never seemed to go over 70F. I may cover the cap with some plastic wrap to limit oxygen contact since I don’t have a CO2 tank yet.


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## Cynewulf (Oct 11, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I think I may have posted this before. I took a short vintner's course and one of the classes we were discussing faults. A couple of bottles of wine with brettanomyces were opened to sample. Not sure what it's supposed to taste like but I didn't find it offensive at all, in fact neither did the majority of the class. Acetobactor on the other hand is a different story.


I probably should have said acetic acid or volatile acid, as it’s present in all wine to varying degrees: There's Vinegar In My Wine!. I suspect it may be what I’m tasting in the low/no sulfited French wines I like in a slightly higher concentration than we typically expect to find in a bottle of wine. 
I really like this interview with another of my favorite winemakers, Mattieu Lapierre: Terroir and Technique in Beaujolais: Talking Natural Wines with Mathieu Lapierre | Wine Spectator. His father Marcel reintroduced a lot of the traditional ‘natural’ techniques to the cru Beaujolais Morgon region but Matthieu explains why he thinks complete nonintervention is unwise. He actually will tolerate 400-600 mg/L of VA depending on the richness of the wine, but works hard to control it. I like this quote: ‘VA “is a component of wine, but you should never seek it out,” he says and laughs. “There is always enough!”’ I’ve had both the Lapierre Morgon and their Raisins Gaulois a couple of times and both are delightful. I actually have a bottle of Georgian wine I brought back on my last trip to Tbilisi that I want to share with you one of these times we get together that I think is a fair example of what I’m thinking of. I’d be interested in your reaction.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 11, 2020)

Cynewulf said:


> I probably should have said acetic acid or volatile acid, as it’s present in all wine to varying degrees: There's Vinegar In My Wine!. I suspect it may be what I’m tasting in the low/no sulfited French wines I like in a slightly higher concentration than we typically expect to find in a bottle of wine.
> I really like this interview with another of my favorite winemakers, Mattieu Lapierre: Terroir and Technique in Beaujolais: Talking Natural Wines with Mathieu Lapierre | Wine Spectator. His father Marcel reintroduced a lot of the traditional ‘natural’ techniques to the cru Beaujolais Morgon region but Matthieu explains why he thinks complete nonintervention is unwise. He actually will tolerate 400-600 mg/L of VA depending on the richness of the wine, but works hard to control it. I like this quote: ‘VA “is a component of wine, but you should never seek it out,” he says and laughs. “There is always enough!”’ I’ve had both the Lapierre Morgon and their Raisins Gaulois a couple of times and both are delightful. I actually have a bottle of Georgian wine I brought back on my last trip to Tbilisi that I want to share with you one of these times we get together that I think is a fair example of what I’m thinking of. I’d be interested in your reaction.



I'd like that, I really need to explore wines from different regions.


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## Cynewulf (Oct 16, 2020)

Day 13 update:
Nearly imperceptible changes in SG since last Saturday (Day 7) with my basic hydrometer - seems to be somewhere between .996 and .998. Very gentle punch downs 1x a day just to wet the cap. I thought about placing plastic wrap on top of the cap then decided to let it ride and see what happens. Just a sheet and the Brute lid snapped on. Cellar has stayed about 64-66F. No off tastes or smells. Taste is very fruity with maybe a hint of bitterness on the finish that is slowly fading. I was hoping for a three week maceration but I think I’ll quit while I’m ahead. Maybe next year when I have a CO2 tank. Tomorrow we press!


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## AaronSC (Oct 18, 2020)

CoteRotie said:


> I think UC Davis did a study a while back and found that just about all "wild" (i.e. uninoculated) yeast fermentations finished with a commercial strain (as checked by DNA analysis). However, I think those were all done in commercial wineries. If you've never made wine in this house maybe you have the potential for more "excitement".


If I remember correctly they found that in 'wild yeast" fermentations the dominant strain ended up being Montrachet, which had established itself over much of California's wine country. I'm pretty sure something similar happened in the Finger Lakes. One year early on I had put in a juice and grape order at Fulkerson's or Fallbright, but near the end of the season I saw they still had some Aurore left (which you probably can't find any more but it was an early-ripening white.) I bought five gallons and brought it home. It was kept at 34 degrees in the tank so very cold. It was 16 Brix so I added a bunch of sugar to it. Normally you would dissolve the sugar in water first, but I was dumb and new at this and just poured the sugar directly into the carboy of juice. The wine had clearly already started fermenting since as soon as I poured in the sugar the entire carboy turned instantly white as a huge amount of CO2 came out of solution at the same time. The wine shot up ten feet from the mouth of the carboy and a huge stream of it splattered off the ceiling! We lost about a half gallon of juice, and I was laughing so hard I couldn't breathe. Some other people were less than happy for some reason though...

Goes to show that some "wild yeasts" can be fermenting a wine at close to freezing, though I think these were the children of cultivated yeats chosen for their ability to ferment white wines at cold temps.

-Aaron


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## Cynewulf (Apr 9, 2021)

It was a busy winter with a lot of house projects, but here is the six month update for the curious:

Pressed on October 17 and ended up with about 5 gallons of free run and 4.5 gallons of presse.




I racked the presse about a week later off the gross lees but still haven’t racked the free run as the lees seemed to be much finer and there is no problem with clarity.


In November, I noticed something floating on the top of the free run that I was afraid was candida mycoderma.


After a few days I dribbled 1/8 tsp of K Meta in 1/2 oz of water on the top. Nothing more has grown, but I suspect that it may be what @Ajmassa suggested in another thread on wine flowers: just some of the lees floating to the top. Left everything alone for the most part over the winter then found a steady littlebubbling in all the carboys at the beginning of April suggesting that MLF is taking place spontaneously, though I don’t have the chromatography kit to track it. Tasted for the first time last weekend and everything is very promising, though young with a lot of youthful fruit but no off flavors or anything that concerns me.



About the second run: I had reserved three gallons of Grenache juice from the juice bucket in my refrigerator for the second run and added those back on press day to the pomace along with 3 lbs of Marquette grapes from my vineyard I had been storing in the freezer. The Grenache juice was clearly fermenting in the fridge as the plastic gallon jugs they were in had swollen considerably. Fermentation was cruising for two days but the morning of the third day there was a hideous sulfur smell. I don’t know if I wasn’t punching down frequently enough to get the yeast sufficient oxygen through the low ratio of juice to skins or if adding yeast nutrient would have prevented the H2S. I did punch downs every two hours to aerate the must then decided to press that evening. I racked after two days and the sulfur smell had diminished, though was still very present. This was incredibly discouraging after everything else seemed to be going well, but I’ve left it alone for the past five months with no additional treatments and the good news is that the H2S smell is totally gone and the smell and taste of the wine are great for its age. Hope this helps to calm some nerves in the future if someone encounters the dreaded hydrogen sulfide.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 9, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> It was a busy winter with a lot of house projects, but here is the six month update for the curious:
> 
> Pressed on October 17 and ended up with about 5 gallons of free run and 4.5 gallons of presse.
> View attachment 73192
> ...



All good to hear, I had an H2S problem with a Viognier that I just let sit and it also went away. BTW, that press looks familiar. Have you given any thought to fall or are just going to rely on your vineyard?


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## Cynewulf (Apr 9, 2021)

Thanks again, Fred. Come visit your old press any time you like. The vineyard is waking up and I’m optimistic that I’ll get enough to finally make something of it this year. Still, I’m tempted to pick up some more of that Carignan and maybe Syrah from WW. I’m not sure if I posted this earlier, but I have a strong suspicion that the Grenache they sold me last year was actually Grenache Gris rather than Noir. It was just too pink and I think helps explain some of the lighter color of my wine. I’ve also thought about following up on that local lead on the Blaufrankisch or maybe Horton grapes but don’t know yet. I’m also tempted to order a barrel but would like to better understand what I can expect from my vineyard before deciding on a size so maybe next year. What are your thoughts/plans for fall?


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## mainshipfred (Apr 9, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> Thanks again, Fred. Come visit your old press any time you like. The vineyard is waking up and I’m optimistic that I’ll get enough to finally make something of it this year. Still, I’m tempted to pick up some more of that Carignan and maybe Syrah from WW. I’m not sure if I posted this earlier, but I have a strong suspicion that the Grenache they sold me last year was actually Grenache Gris rather than Noir. It was just too pink and I think helps explain some of the lighter color of my wine. I’ve also thought about following up on that local lead on the Blaufrankisch or maybe Horton grapes but don’t know yet. I’m also tempted to order a barrel but would like to better understand what I can expect from my vineyard before deciding on a size so maybe next year. What are your thoughts/plans for fall?



Your right about the Grenache, mine were grapes but the same thing, too light, my Nebbiolo was extremely light as well. Since there are no spring grapes this I might bump up fall a little but going to try to stick with as much local as possible and hope my Washington State Cab Franc deal doesn't fall through again this year.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 9, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> It was a busy winter with a lot of house projects, but here is the six month update for the curious:
> 
> Pressed on October In November, I noticed something floating on the top of the free run that I was afraid was candida mycoderma.
> View attachment 73196
> ...



awesome detailed update. i need to go back and read this entire thread. 1st time seeing it. 

For the record tho— about the surface crud— i have absolutely no science to back up that lees theory. just basing off my own observations. 
Either way looks like things are working out well over there. love to see it. saluté


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## Gilmango (Apr 9, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I think I may have posted this before. I took a short vintner's course and one of the classes we were discussing faults. A couple of bottles of wine with brettanomyces were opened to sample. Not sure what it's supposed to taste like but I didn't find it offensive at all, in fact neither did the majority of the class. Acetobactor on the other hand is a different story.


Nice, I brew sour and funky beers with brettanomyces pretty often. Now that I have begun wine making I know that I need to be extra careful to not unintentionally get brett (or the other bacteria I use in sour brewing, mostly lactobacillus and pediococcus) into my wine. But that is not new as I brew lots of clean beer styles as well where I need to avoid that.

But your story reminded me that I was once lucky enough to visit a friend who was then one of the winemakers at Gallo of Sonoma, Gallo's fancy winery in Dry Creek AVA of Sonoma. Earlier that day they had been tasting all the different wines which were in contention to be included in their most premium blend, the Ernest and Julio Gallo Estate Cabernet. They had settled on just 4 component wines and on the %s they'd be adding them in, and I got to try each of the 4, plus the blend. What was fascinating was that one of the 4 was infected with brett. My friend and the other winemakers decided that at the 1 or 2% level that bretted wine added another dimension to the blend. They must have neutered the brett with sorbate and/or filtering before doing their large scale blend and bottling, lest it find more to chew on in the un-bretted majority of the blend.


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## Cynewulf (Apr 9, 2021)

Gilmango said:


> Nice, I brew sour and funky beers with brettanomyces pretty often. Now that I have begun wine making I know that I need to be extra careful to not unintentionally get brett (or the other bacteria I use in sour brewing, mostly lactobacillus and pediococcus) into my wine. But that is not new as I brew lots of clean beer styles as well where I need to avoid that.
> 
> But your story reminded me that I was once lucky enough to visit a friend who was then one of the winemakers at Gallo of Sonoma, Gallo's fancy winery in Dry Creek AVA of Sonoma. Earlier that day they had been tasting all the different wines which were in contention to be included in their most premium blend, the Ernest and Julio Gallo Estate Cabernet. They had settled on just 4 component wines and on the %s they'd be adding them in, and I got to try each of the 4, plus the blend. What was fascinating was that one of the 4 was infected with brett. My friend and the other winemakers decided that at the 1 or 2% level that bretted wine added another dimension to the blend. They must have neutered the brett with sorbate and/or filtering before doing their large scale blend and bottling, lest it find more to chew on in the un-bretted majority of the blend.


This isn’t really what I’m going for, but as one who brews with brett, you may find this interesting: Did Mandy Heldt Donovan just ruin her wine?.


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## Cynewulf (Apr 9, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> awesome detailed update. i need to go back and read this entire thread. 1st time seeing it.
> 
> For the record tho— about the surface crud— i have absolutely no science to back up that lees theory. just basing off my own observations.
> Either way looks like things are working out well over there. love to see it. saluté


Thanks, Aj! I really appreciate all of the things you’ve documented over the years and I’m happy to give back a little to the community here. And don’t worry, I won’t hold you accountable if I’m wrong about the surface crud. I’m just adding my own observations for posterity that it may not be anything to stress out too much over. But keep an eye on it just the same...


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## Cynewulf (Jul 20, 2021)

Quick update: I was able to borrow @mainshipfred ’s chromatography kit on 7/5/21 and it looks like MLF has completed in the 3 carboys I tested. 


Still no additions or extra rackings since the first couple of weeks. The wine still tastes fine, no off flavors, though it’s nothing super exciting. It’s much lighter in color and structure than I expected, which I suspect may be due to the Grenache Gris substitution and perhaps the Grenache juice addition; mistakes I wouldn’t make again. It will be interesting to see how it evolves and at different temperatures: my cellar is in the upper 60s right now and I think this will drink better chilled down to 50-55. Still an enjoyable learning experience and one that gives me better confidence for the next time. I have the Allinone bottling kit on order and look forward to bottling this up in a few more weeks.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 21, 2021)

Wild Fermentation Chapter 2: 2021. My young vineyard ripened enough grapes this year that I’m able to make a bit of wine from it. The hybrids ripen early here in Virginia and I harvested my Itasca on 7/24: 18.75 lbs at 19 Brix and 3.12 pH.


They ought to be a little more gold and I think I should have perhaps waited one more week but with the hot dry weather we were having at the time I was worried about losing too much acid. The grapes and juice tasted great anyhow. I destemmed and crushed everything by hand then immediately pressed 14.75 lbs and got 3.25 liters after a lot of work with the press. I can now sympathize with everyone who has pressed white grapes - what a pain. I put the pressed skins in the freezer and the other 4 lbs of grapes I left to macerate on the skins. The next day the pressed juice was at 1.084 SG and the macerating at 1.094. After two days the pressed juice showed signs of fermentation and the day after the macerating juice kicked off. Gravity descended steadily in both ferments. I pressed the macerating grapes after one week on 7/31 at 1.040 and let it finish in the carboy. Everything was dry by 8/6 and I racked the two together.


We’ll see how it turns out next summer.

I had to harvest my Marquette a little earlier than I wanted as the bees were starting to really go after them. I picked 85 lbs on 7/31.


I left 35 lbs (40%) of whole clusters, crushed and destemmed the remaining 50 lbs, and added the pressed Itasca skins I’d saved. Took readings the next day and got 1.094 SG and pH 3.10. I didn’t do the pied de cuve starter this time and am glad I didn’t as I got a much longer, slower ferment than when I used one last year. Punch downs were a little difficult the first week but much easier the second. Fermentation started spontaneously two days after crush, like the white, and went down slow and steady for two weeks, reaching 0.998 around 8/12. I continued light punch downs just to wet the cap for another week (no plastic wrap or CO2, etc.). It was interesting how the fruitiness would fade in, out, and back in and astringency would do the same thing over the course of the maceration.

Finally pressed on 8/19, three weeks after harvest and crush and got a little over five gallons.



Racked off the gross lees on 8/21. Checked pH and it’s gone all the way up to 3.48, which gives me more hope for MLF in the spring.


We’ll see how things go with it over the next year. It still has some fruit along with some savory notes and it will be interesting to see how it evolves.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 22, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> Wild Fermentation Chapter 2: 2021. My young vineyard ripened enough grapes this year that I’m able to make a bit of wine from it. The hybrids ripen early here in Virginia and I harvested my Itasca on 7/24: 18.75 lbs at 19 Brix and 3.12 pH.
> View attachment 77777
> 
> They ought to be a little more gold and I think I should have perhaps waited one more week but with the hot dry weather we were having at the time I was worried about losing too much acid. The grapes and juice tasted great anyhow. I destemmed and crushed everything by hand then immediately pressed 14.75 lbs and got 3.25 liters after a lot of work with the press. I can now sympathize with everyone who has pressed white grapes - what a pain. I put the pressed skins in the freezer and the other 4 lbs of grapes I left to macerate on the skins. The next day the pressed juice was at 1.084 SG and the macerating at 1.094. After two days the pressed juice showed signs of fermentation and the day after the macerating juice kicked off. Gravity descended steadily in both ferments. I pressed the macerating grapes after one week on 7/31 at 1.040 and let it finish in the carboy. Everything was dry by 8/6 and I racked the two together.
> ...



Pretty successful season so far, how is the Cab Franc coming.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 22, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Pretty successful season so far, how is the Cab Franc coming.


It’s still going for now - I’m starting to think I may actually get something from them. By this time last year, downy mildew had pretty much taken over and the Cab Franc was defoliated by 8/27/20 so couldn’t ripen further. This year it completed veraison about a week ago and I’m hoping it will hold on for at least another two weeks or more. The crop is smaller than what set last year and I suspect I have about 50-60 lbs. I haven’t tested the chemistry yet since we got about 5-6” of rain this week and everything is going to be off. It’s supposed to be dry this week so should have a better sense of where things are next weekend. I did taste a few of the riper grapes and they were sweet and watery. The seeds were crunchy but still a bit of green in them. I think the vineyards in Virginia tend to harvest Cab Franc in October but I also think they are usually going for a style that is much riper than I am hoping for as I like it a bit lighter.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Aug 22, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> It’s still going for now - I’m starting to think I may actually get something from them. By this time last year, downy mildew had pretty much taken over and the Cab Franc was defoliated by 8/27/20 so couldn’t ripen further. This year it completed veraison about a week ago and I’m hoping it will hold on for at least another two weeks or more. The crop is smaller than what set last year and I suspect I have about 50-60 lbs. I haven’t tested the chemistry yet since we got about 5-6” of rain this week and everything is going to be off. It’s supposed to be dry this week so should have a better sense of where things are next weekend. I did taste a few of the riper grapes and they were sweet and watery. The seeds were crunchy but still a bit of green in them. I think the vineyards in Virginia tend to harvest Cab Franc in October but I also think they are usually going for a style that is much riper than I am hoping for as I like it a bit lighter.


Cab franc usually will come in 1-2 weeks earlier than most other red grapes it’s almost always 14 days earlier than Cabernet Sauvignon, it is grown as a sort of insurance grape in a lot of places because it can survive adverse weather conditions including cold better, try to get it as ripe as possible because Cabernet franc tends to be vegetal and very green if you don’t and can be very off putting if it isn’t ripe but when it is ripe it can be a fantastic grape.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 22, 2021)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Cab franc usually will come in 1-2 weeks earlier than most other red grapes it’s almost always 14 days earlier than Cabernet Sauvignon, it is grown as a sort of insurance grape in a lot of places because it can survive adverse weather conditions including cold better, try to get it as ripe as possible because Cabernet franc tends to be vegetal and very green if you don’t and can be very off putting if it isn’t ripe but when it is ripe it can be a fantastic grape.


I’ve heard those things but haven’t yet determined the difference between ripe and overripe. I have a preference for Cabernet Francs from Loire Valley appellations like Chinon or Bourgeil which tend to be lighter and from what I can figure out they usually harvest around 2500 GDD (which we passed two weeks ago) and pH 3.3. I’ve also had an excellent one from Languedoc-Roussillon where I think they harvest at around 3300 GDD. One of the Virginia growers I’ve talked to said they never harvest Cab Franc before pH 4.0 and around 4000 GDD because they’re afraid of green flavors then they add acid back to 3.5 or so and maybe ameliorate. It was good but I’m not really interested in that style. I may just have to take what I can get if downy gets me again, but my goal is to see how things are looking over the next two weeks with a target of brown crunchy seeds, skins a little less bitter, and pH around 3.3-3.4.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 23, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Pretty successful season so far, how is the Cab Franc coming.


Here are a few pictures of the better looking vines. The clusters are smaller and the shoots more scraggly than last year, but at least it’s looking like I’ll get something.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Aug 24, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> Here are a few pictures of the better looking vines. The clusters are smaller and the shoots more scraggly than last year, but at least it’s looking like I’ll get something.
> View attachment 77880
> 
> View attachment 77881
> ...


Not bad looking, pretty nice grapes for the vines age which isn’t very old from the thickness of the trunk. What kind of soil are they planted in?


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## Cynewulf (Aug 24, 2021)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Not bad looking, pretty nice grapes for the vines age which isn’t very old from the thickness of the trunk. What kind of soil are they planted in?


Thanks, the vines were planted in 2017. I haven’t had it tested but as far as I understand and can tell the soil is clay loam with equal parts clay, silt, and sand.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Aug 24, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> Thanks, the vines were planted in 2017. I haven’t had it tested but as far as I understand and can tell the soil is clay loam with equal parts clay, silt, and sand.


Cool yeah then this year is really the first year you would want to harvest grapes from them I have a vineyard that I planted between 2015-2019. And my earlier plantings are just finally starting to produce good yields. My Sauvignon blanc was the exception it made a full crop the year after I planted it and I just let it and now this year they are loaded again.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 27, 2021)

I pulled the trigger on the Cab Franc yesterday. I wanted to let it hang for another week or two but was looking at this:



i ended up with about 35 lbs, less than I was hoping for but better than nothing:



Not too bad looking, though more uneven ripening and shot berries than I realized. I tried to remove as many of those as I could in the vineyard. The clusters were tiny compared to last year, I suspect because the vines were defoliated at the end of last August with unripe clusters still on them and weren’t able to store enough carbohydrates for this year. I left them to cool off overnight in my cellar then crushed today, leaving 4 lbs of whole clusters.


Initial numbers look better than I expected: 1.088 SG and 3.4 pH. Expect fermentation to start spontaneously tomorrow or the day after.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Aug 27, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> I pulled the trigger on the Cab Franc yesterday. I wanted to let it hang for another week or two but was looking at this:
> View attachment 78014
> 
> 
> ...


Nice, grapes look good and I think the numbers are pretty good as well. I am eager to hear about how it turns out.


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## tkmorita (Aug 29, 2021)

Great post! And I appreciate all the follow-up!

I’m a homebrewer just about to start my journey into wine. I brew a lot of mixed fermentation, spontaneous, and brett beers and am excited about the idea of doing a spontaneous wine. I’ve tried to gather as much information as I can about tips on spontaneous but there isn’t much out there.

Anyway, I’m likely going to obtain about 100-150 lbs of Sangiovese from a commercial vineyard. They aren’t biodynamic or organic certified, however, there should still be plenty of wild stuff on there, correct? I hear how risky spontaneous wine is, but not much evidence to back that up as long as quality processes are implemented…controlled fermentation, minimal oxygen post fermentation, etc.

I hear great things about prolonged skin contact, and increased extraction with higher ferm temps, but worry about oxygen pickup if it finishes too soon. I figure a slow lag phase with spontaneous fermentation can help with this. However, how do you balance ferm temperature? From my understanding, a typical red ferment is 70-85, with higher temps promoting more extraction, but making fermentation quicker. I’d ideally want ~2 wk skin contact time.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 29, 2021)

tkmorita said:


> Great post! And I appreciate all the follow-up!
> 
> I’m a homebrewer just about to start my journey into wine. I brew a lot of mixed fermentation, spontaneous, and brett beers and am excited about the idea of doing a spontaneous wine. I’ve tried to gather as much information as I can about tips on spontaneous but there isn’t much out there.


Congrats on getting started in wine! The limited amount of practical info I was able to find was one of the inspirations for this post. I know it’s not for everybody but I figured there’d be a few curious people out there looking for information/experience as I was (still am).



tkmorita said:


> Anyway, I’m likely going to obtain about 100-150 lbs of Sangiovese from a commercial vineyard. They aren’t biodynamic or organic certified, however, there should still be plenty of wild stuff on there, correct?


There should be. My vineyard is definitely not organic. Not because I wouldn’t like it to be, I’ve just learned that it’s not possible if I’m going to have a part-time hobby vineyard in Virginia. I spray with Mancozeb, Captan, and Myclobutanil at regular intervals (respecting pre harvest intervals). In spite of that I’m kicking off my fourth spontaneous ferment and haven’t had an issue yet.



tkmorita said:


> I hear how risky spontaneous wine is, but not much evidence to back that up as long as quality processes are implemented…controlled fermentation, minimal oxygen post fermentation, etc.


Agreed. I’ve seen a lot of warnings about the risk but no actual negative experiences being related, though I’m certainly open to hearing about them. As you said, keep things reasonably clean, limit oxygen post ferment, etc. I’d suggest that includes limiting rackings as well. For now I’m racking once off the gross lees then two weeks before bottling, unless there is an H2S or other issue. This seems to be the protocol of a lot of the natural wine producers I follow and it seems to be working so far. I’ve seen theories and a few academic papers suggesting that fermenting on stems and/or lees contact may help reduce the need for SO2 additions. My personal preference is to limit or eliminate SO2; not for health or philosophical reasons, but for the microbiological diversity and related flavor potential. Again, not suggesting anyone else do this if they’re not comfortable with it, that’s just me and the wines I’ve enjoyed the most have been low or no added sulfites.



tkmorita said:


> I hear great things about prolonged skin contact, and increased extraction with higher ferm temps, but worry about oxygen pickup if it finishes too soon. I figure a slow lag phase with spontaneous fermentation can help with this. However, how do you balance ferm temperature? From my understanding, a typical red ferment is 70-85, with higher temps promoting more extraction, but making fermentation quicker. I’d ideally want ~2 wk skin contact time.


I wanted a long slow ferment too if you saw at the beginning of this thread, though it didn’t work out exactly as I hoped. I suspect that was because I used the pied de cuve starter so ended up inoculating with a pretty healthy wild culture and going to dry after only six days. I still left it on the skins for another week with no issues. This year I’m not using a starter but crushing and letting everything start on its own and have had nice, slow ferments of about ten days to two weeks. I personally think you’re good macerating for another week after you get to dry as the must is saturated with CO2 and other antioxidants, but theoretically you want the keep the cap wet. (I say theoretically because I’ve seen a study where they actually observed less VA with no punch downs).

I don’t control the temperature but ferment in my cellar which stays in the mid 60s in the summer and my must temps seem to stay around 70. I think letting the ambient yeast do their thing at the activity and alcohol levels they are comfortable with help with that, whereas relying only on saccharomyces from the beginning may result in a more vigorous ferment at higher temperatures. The non-saccharomyces yeasts are always far more abundant and kick things off while the saccharomyces population slowly builds to finish things off. If you have the temperature control ability and wanted to, I know some natural winemakers will ferment in the 70s for the most part then let it finish warmer at the end. I honestly don’t know what that gets you but it’s an option if you wanted to couple a longer ferment with some warmer temperatures at the end to get the extraction you’re looking for. 

Full disclaimer: all of this is based on my limited experience along with a few theories/opinions and some research, YMMV. If you’re looking for more info in English, I’ve found this blog to be full of interesting practical details from mostly French winemakers that practice ‘natural winemaking’ techniques: Wine Tasting, Vineyards, in France. I learned of a technique one winemaker in the Loire uses where he fills an amphorae full of whole clusters of Cabernet Franc submerged/topped with juice from previously pressed grapes to eliminate oxygen and leaves them sealed until about Christmas before pressing. I may try that with a sample of my Marquette next year if I get a large enough harvest.

I hope this is helpful and look forward to hearing about what you decide to do and how it turns out!


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## Booty Juice (Aug 30, 2021)

@Cynewulf - Excellent, thank you!


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## tkmorita (Aug 31, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> …For now I’m racking once off the gross lees then two weeks before bottling, unless there is an H2S or other issue. This seems to be the protocol of a lot of the natural wine producers I follow and it seems to be working so far. I’ve seen theories and a few academic papers suggesting that fermenting on stems and/or lees contact may help reduce the need for SO2 additions. My personal preference is to limit or eliminate SO2; not for health or philosophical reasons, but for the microbiological diversity and related flavor potential. Again, not suggesting anyone else do this if they’re not comfortable with it, that’s just me and the wines I’ve enjoyed the most have been low or no added sulfites.



I’m in the same boat with SO2…would like to minimize as much as possible for microbial expression and complexity. I’m curious though, what is the reason for the racking 2 weeks before bottling? Clarity? Adding a small amount of sulfite? I’m fine with a little sediment in the bottle so I was planning on just doing once after the initial gross lees, and then bottling straight from fermenter whenever I decide it’s ready



Cynewulf said:


> .you have the temperature control ability and wanted to, I know some natural winemakers will ferment in the 70s for the most part then let it finish warmer at the end. I honestly don’t know what that gets you but it’s an option if you wanted to couple a longer ferment with some warmer temperatures at the end to get the extraction you’re looking for.



This sounds like a good plan. I know from beer brewing it’s a good idea to ramp up just as fermentation is finishing. It helps make sure you fully ferment out (a lot more polysaccharides to work through in beer), and helps clear diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and potentially sulfur.

Really appreciate the response, helpful tips, and great resource. I’ll be sure to post about my experience as long as I get my grapes!


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## franc1969 (Sep 1, 2021)

tkmorita said:


> what is the reason for the racking 2 weeks before bottling?


Both reasons you stated, plus evening out flavors through the wine volume. Particularly if you have been aging on fine lees or with oak.


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## tkmorita (Oct 11, 2021)

This past Saturday I got my grapes! 150 lbs of Sangiovese and 100 lbs of Cab Franc. They were a little more ripe than ideal:

sangio: 26 Brix, pH 3.56
Cab Franc: 28.2 Brix, pH 4.06

I ended up pulling off a bit of juice on each (saignee) for a separate rosé and then diluting each bin to about 24 Brix (Rosés diluted to 21 Brix). I also added some Fermaid O and tartaric acid to bring both pH’s closer to 3.4 (I’m not against adding stuff, just want to have the complexity of the wild stuff fermenting it rather than a commercial isolate).

I’ve been mixing things up about three times a day. Hopefully fermentation kicks up in the next day or two.





sangiovese on day 1:


Cab franc on day 1:


Sangiovese at 48hrs:


Cab franc at 48 hrs:


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## mainshipfred (Oct 13, 2021)

I left all my inhibitions behind and tried a wild ferment on my Viognier. Mostly because the winery I got the grapes from said that is how they ferment theirs. So far so good although it is going slowly.


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## Cynewulf (Oct 17, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I left all my inhibitions behind and tried a wild ferment on my Viognier. Mostly because the winery I got the grapes from said that is how they ferment theirs. So far so good although it is going slowly.


Can’t wait to hear how it goes, Fred!


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## tkmorita (Oct 19, 2021)

So there were subtle signs of fermentation on both sets of grapes (Sangio and Cab Franc) by day 3, and then by day 4 there was a nice cap starting to develop. I’ve been punching down 3 times a day and the temp has held pretty steady around 72-75F.

I happened to also have a forced fermentation test going (small juice sample on a stir plate with a heating pad to keep it closer to 90F), and unfortunately that test seems to have stalled at about 7% abv. Day 9 and day 10 readings were the same.

I ended up making a small starter of Lalvin Bourgovin RC212 and pitching it into each batch on day 10 to ensure fermentation can complete. I really wanted to go 100% wild, but having that fermentation test stall made me nervous. At least the early portion of fermentation was all wild.

It’s now day 11 and I’m at 14.5 Brix. Based on this rate, I should be close to dry around day 17 (unless that Bourgovin really starts to speed things up).

punching that Sangio cap, day 10:


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## mainshipfred (Nov 9, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> Can’t wait to hear how it goes, Fred!



Well it got stuck around 1.015. The initial brix was 28 though I think it was higher since I didn't take the reading until the second day and they were overly ripe to begin with. It first got stuck at 1.030 so I added a cultured yeast but I'm guessing the alcohol level might have been too high already. I used D47 and BA 11. Today I'm preparing a starter using a champagne yeast I have. We'll see how it goes. On the bright side there is no H2S or any off putting odors and it actually tastes fine, just a little sweet and of course harsh.


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## Joe B. (Nov 10, 2021)

This is a great read, thanks for all the posts. I keep a fresh batch of EC1118 yeast on hand each year in case a ferment get's stuck. Only had to use it once and it did the job.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 10, 2021)

The starter appears to be working. I doubled the recommended amount of Go-Ferm and yeast and added some DAP. Then throughout the course of the day added about 2000 ml of the wine to get it used to the high alcohol. This morning there is activity and it went from 1.015 to 1.011 so I'm thinking it will finish.


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## Cynewulf (Nov 10, 2021)

That starting Brix does seem pretty high. Does the winery you got them from usually do a spontaneous ferment when it’s that high, and/or are they going for some residual sugar? As far as I can tell, the ‘natural’ winemakers in France that I follow don’t seem to let their grapes hang that long unless they are pursuing a particular style with residual sugar at the end. On the other hand, they’ll talk about the fermentation taking months or even over a year to complete sometimes, which puzzled me with my limited experience of having fermentation complete after about two weeks. Makes me wonder if some fermentations actually stick or just start going _really_ slow…. Hope you’ll be happy with the end results.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 10, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> That starting Brix does seem pretty high. Does the winery you got them from usually do a spontaneous ferment when it’s that high, and/or are they going for some residual sugar? As far as I can tell, the ‘natural’ winemakers in France that I follow don’t seem to let their grapes hang that long unless they are pursuing a particular style with residual sugar at the end. On the other hand, they’ll talk about the fermentation taking months or even over a year to complete sometimes, which puzzled me with my limited experience of having fermentation complete after about two weeks. Makes me wonder if some fermentations actually stick or just start going _really_ slow…. Hope you’ll be happy with the end results.



It is their style and they do take it to dry although when you read their description they call it sweet with 1% residual sugar. Since the grapes were so ripe it almost appears it's going to be a somewhat of an orange wine even though I pressed immediately after crush. If you would have said really, really, really slowly I might have agreed but it stayed at 1.015 for over a week. I found out the winery's also got stuck so I don't feel so bad. When the time comes I'll do bench trials watering it back though as I mentioned it is really not that bad for such a young wine. Perhaps you might want to try it sometime.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 16, 2022)

Here’s a brief update on last year and what’s going on this year. I bottled everything back in May. The Marquette was nice but a little thin - a known issue with hybrids, I think. I blended in 10% Cabernet Franc and I think it made a significant improvement. I’ve opened a bottle or two since then, but think it needs another few months to a year or beyond to fully integrate as the acid seems a little out of sync with the fruit, but I think it’s improving with time.

The Itasca came out very nice and my wife really likes it. It is very different than any white wine I’ve tried, with flavors of apple, pineapple, and honey, and a surprising and unusual curry spice finish.

I think the Cabernet Franc is promising and also will benefit from some time.

So far this year I’ve harvested the hybrids on August 5 and 6, a little earlier than I wanted, but I had some critters that were really starting to go after them. I ended up with around 85lbs of Marquette again and about 45lbs of Itasca.

This year I’m experimenting with carbonic maceration. I filled a 3 gallon Fermonster with whole Marquette clusters and added a quart of juice from crush. After about two days the juice showed fermentation activity. I’m debating whether to press this Friday or to fill it with free run from my traditionally macerating Marquette for 90 days then press replicating a technique used by Sebastien David for his Coef cuvée but I’m leaning toward the latter.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 20, 2022)

Opened up the fermonster yesterday. Made the dumb rookie mistake of sticking my nose in it and got a painful blast of CO2 in the face. I tasted a couple of the berries on top and they were delicious and just as I’d heard advertised: prickly carbonation, fruity and slightly boozy. I was tempted to press them right then but I’d like to experiment further so filled it up to the top with 1.25 gallons of free run from my traditionally macerating Marquette and will leave it for 90 days. 


If this is successful, next year I may get another fermonster to be able to do one carbonic maceration and one extended steeping/maceration like this.


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## Cynewulf (Sep 10, 2022)

The airlock on the fermonster was good for a week or two after I topped it up but then wine started pushing out through it and making a bit of a mess. I’ve switched to a blow off tube and that seems to be working, though even then at first there was enough pressure to push the bung out. I tasted this morning and am very happy so far - rich and floral and very different than my traditionally macerated Marquette. Still a lot of fermentation activity. Only two months to go before pressing.




Interesting how the color is leeching out of the grapes. The wine samples I’ve taken so far have a deeper purple color than my other Marquette, which tends toward red.



I opened a bottle of my 2021 Marquette from last year and am very happy with how it is developing. The fruit and acid are coming into balance, with nice cherry flavors and the savory finish that I love in natural wine. The color seems stable without the browning I’ve seen in some hybrid wine. This was 100% Marquette and not the blend with 10% Cabernet Franc I did, so it is very light on tannins - maybe even a little too thin. I think in another 6 months to a year it’s going to be very good.


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## VinesnBines (Sep 10, 2022)

I’m extremely interested since I had to freeze whole clusters of my Marquette and Leon Millot. Later this fall/winter I’ll ferment both as whole cluster. Or sooner since I wouldn’t press for several weeks.

The Leon Millot May work well with whole cluster since it can be like Pinot noir. Anyway a good time to experiment!


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## Cynewulf (Nov 6, 2022)

I think I’m ready to call my fermonster experiment a success. I pressed yesterday after allowing it all to steep about 3 months. From the 3 gallon fermonster packed to the top with Marquette grapes then filled with free run wine from the rest of my batch, I ended up with about 2 gallons of free run and another half gallon after pressing the clusters. Here is what it looked like after pouring off the free run. 


Pretty mushy. 

It’s delightfully perfumed and has a silky mouthfeel. None of the thinness that has disappointed me with my other Marquette. I’d almost say it’s ready to drink now, but I’m going to put it away until it’s time to bottle all of the 2022s next summer. The real test will be to see how it compares side by side with my more traditionally macerated Marquette. That will help determine if this technique becomes part of my standard routine.


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## Obbnw (Nov 6, 2022)

Cynewulf said:


> I think I’m ready to call my fermonster experiment a success. I pressed yesterday after allowing it all to steep about 3 months. From the 3 gallon fermonster packed to the top with Marquette grapes then filled with free run wine from the rest of my batch, I ended up with about 2 gallons of free run and another half gallon after pressing the clusters. Here is what it looked like after pouring off the free run.
> View attachment 94889
> 
> Pretty mushy.
> ...


Maybe it is ready now ; )

I was thinking of trying carbonic... this year as a way to make some early drinkable wine since it is how Beaujolais nouveau is made.

Didn't have the energy this year...


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## sjjan (Nov 8, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> Well it got stuck around 1.015. The initial brix was 28 though I think it was higher since I didn't take the reading until the second day and they were overly ripe to begin with. It first got stuck at 1.030 so I added a cultured yeast but I'm guessing the alcohol level might have been too high already. I used D47 and BA 11. Today I'm preparing a starter using a champagne yeast I have. We'll see how it goes. On the bright side there is no H2S or any off putting odors and it actually tastes fine, just a little sweet and of course harsh.


I used wild fermentation last year with all the grapes I bought and that worked fine.

This year, one batch of montepulciano grapes just would not ferment to dryness while last year the same grape grower delivered montepulciano grapes that fermented great to dryness with just wild fermentation. So this year this batch (almost 300 liter) is stuck at 1.016 and also with acidic acidity problems which accumulated during the a slow fermentation of almost 2 months. So, I am dumping this wine. I could try to fix it by adding water (bringing the alcohol level down) and using champagne yeast to complete the fermentation. So ... even though I am a big fan of wild/natural fermentation, it doesn't always work out well.


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## zappoid (Nov 8, 2022)

Cynewulf said:


> I actually have a bottle of Georgian wine I brought back on my last trip to Tbilisi


May I ask you to make real short review of Georgian wines you tried in Georgia. I myself stay in Georgia second year (contract job), and before arriving was full of expectations, now I'm very skeptical about the issue: reality was not so brilliant: 95% is cheap generic stuff not worth to try, 4% is just OK, and 1% maybe not bad to try. It is the joy for me to have Spanish wine from time to time.


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## Cynewulf (Nov 8, 2022)

zappoid said:


> May I ask you to make real short review of Georgian wines you tried in Georgia. I myself stay in Georgia second year (contract job), and before arriving was full of expectations, now I'm very skeptical about the issue: reality was not so brilliant: 95% is cheap generic stuff not worth to try, 4% is just OK, and 1% maybe not bad to try. It is the joy for me to have Spanish wine from time to time.


I’ve been to Georgia three times and also had mixed experiences with the wine. Just as in France, I found the best wine by seeking out the smaller producers. Most of the wine that I had in the restaurants in Tbilisi wasn’t great. The saperavi was often harsh or even bitter if it was from qvevri.

However, I found a wine shop near Freedom Square that I returned to on all my visits where I found some delicious wines. I believe it is part of a collective or some kind of consortium of artisan winemakers: Vino Underground, Galaktioni Street 15 in Tbilisi, https://m.facebook.com/100063641253789/. The ladies that work there are very knowledgeable about wine and winemaking and helped me find some wines I really enjoyed.

This is a saperavi made in a lighter style that I really like. I don’t remember exactly, but I think I was told they remove a certain amount of the skins to achieve a lighter, fruit forward wine, in contrast to the overly tannic saperavis you often find in country:



This is another favorite, from the Tavkveri grape and made in qvevri. Fuller bodied than the other, savory and delicious. I still have one last bottle that I need to drink soon:


The wine shop has a book with profiles of the winemakers and they showed me the section for this one:



On the other end of the spectrum, our government partners there make wine every year in a cellar they have and would always invite us down for a taste. Very cool concept, but sadly I never found what they were making palatable.





This trip down memory lane is making me thirsty and hungry for some khachapuri and khinkali!


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## zappoid (Nov 8, 2022)

Tavqveri is best varietal I've tried. This year I myself started my firsts batches. I do not expect great results, hope wine will be drincable. It was Chinuri (white) and Tavqveri and Shavkapito (red). And next year will try more complex protocol.


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## Brandon Thomas (Nov 15, 2022)

Thank you for posting this thread over the past few years! I'm in a similar situation up in the Finger Lakes. We harvest different varieties from a friend's vineyard (Cab Franc, Riesling, Chardonnay, Saperavi) with the intention of producing wine as naturally as possible. 

Sadly, we struggle to get beautiful wines! This year the Cab Franc got hit with tons of VA. We had to press the Saperavi after 8 days on the skins due to too much tannin and color extraction. Previous vintages have also been attacked with VA, and when not, they lack finesse and fruitness. We work very clean, rack when suggested, and so on. 

When you rely on natural yeast, do you add any Go-Ferm or Fermaid? 

Our natural ferments take 6-9 days to get going after crush. I'm thinking this is too long for the must to be unprotected, even though we add a few ppm of SO2 at crush.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 15, 2022)

Brandon Thomas said:


> Our natural ferments take 6-9 days to get going after crush. I'm thinking this is too long for the must to be unprotected, even though we add a few ppm of SO2 at crush.


That seems way too long. Adding k-meta may be part of the problem -- commercial yeast are selected for SO2 tolerance, and the wild yeast you get (luck of the draw) may not be.

Next year, divide the grapes in 3 batches. Do one with wild yeast, and the other 2 with different commercial yeast selected for their qualities.


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