# Vacuum Filtering gone all wrong



## calvindcd (May 31, 2012)

Just got my 10" housing water filter set up. When I pulled the vacuum, the wine filled the filter fine. The out side of the filter was the problem.
Air bubbles were not able to be purged. I attempted turning the housing upside down, pinching the tube, speeding up, slowing down....
I verified filter was in properly, nipples were tight, top tight....
I did notice that there was air bubbles traveling up the threads of the housing suggesting an air leak. I reseated, retightened, etc but nothing.
& gal of wine beat up pretty bad. 
I think it may be a bad o ring..... Anyone have an ideal of what to do?


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## tonyandkory (May 31, 2012)

Nope sorry .... I'd use water while I'm figuring it out if I was you though lol ... there are a few people on here that use those they may know... you might want to provide make and model info for pump and filter.


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## vacuumpumpman (May 31, 2012)

which filter housing were you using ?
how much vacuum was being applied ?
what size micron filter also ?

well you beat me to both of those questions as well (provide make and model info for pump and filter) - thanks tony


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## calvindcd (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm not sure of the make and model is the one from morebeer.
the filter is a 3 or 4 micron filter 
I tried filtering at many different vacuum pressure is mostly between 5 and 10 
due to the fact that I was watching air bubbles go up through the threads I still think it might be am o ring


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## vacuumpumpman (Jun 1, 2012)

try a thicker o ring - that may solve your problem. Or possibily a different filter housing


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## calvindcd (Jun 22, 2012)

So, I got a new filter housing. I used plumbers tape and made a tight seal with a wrench for the stainless nipples. 
Still did not work. .. I still have air bubbles coming from the out tube. Now what? Can I use plumbers putty?


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## vacuumpumpman (Jun 22, 2012)

calvindcd said:


> So, I got a new filter housing. I used plumbers tape and made a tight seal with a wrench for the stainless nipples.
> Still did not work. .. I still have air bubbles coming from the out tube. Now what? Can I use plumbers putty?


 

DO NOT USE PLUMBERS PUTTY !!

are the air bubbles still coming from the thread area ? if so you may just have a bad housing , or the wrong housing. I know of alot of people who have bought from filterfast for the complete filter setup and did not have this problem. 
Or is the air bubbles at the exit only , usually caused if the filter has air trapped inside or your wine still has CO2 in as it is under vacuum and the filter is aiding the removal of CO2.

What happens when you use just plain water ?


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2012)

Calvin, you could not have a mis-match in threads (e.g. fine and coarse) on the fittings and housing, could you? Could something be cross-threaded? Just some thoughts. Hope you find an answer.


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## Wade E (Jun 22, 2012)

Is it right where a hose meets a fitting and do you have a hose clamp there? If its happening inside the filter then Im guessing you are using a string wound filter and these will do this as they trap tons of air in them and thats why I recommend the poly filters, also the poly filters dont trap nearly as much wine when done also!


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## calvindcd (Jun 22, 2012)

Here is a video 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMI3-1gj-GI&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## rodo (Jun 23, 2012)

That looks like air that has not been purged from the filter/housing. It is a huge amount of air not what I would expect to see from a hose/fitting leak, nor is it the O-ring as we would see a stream of bubels from the suorce.


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## Deezil (Jun 23, 2012)

Wade E said:


> If its happening inside the filter then Im guessing you are using a string wound filter and these will do this as they trap tons of air in them and thats why I recommend the poly filters, also the poly filters dont trap nearly as much wine when done also!





rodo said:


> That looks like air that has not been purged from the filter/housing.



If i was a betting man..... 

I wanna say, somewhere a long while ago on this forum, there was a few posts about these types of filters & about soaking them in a k-meta laced solution prior to filtering, to avoid the massive amounts of air trapped in the filter like shown in the video.. Not 100% but pretty sure it was around the time i joined the forum, this was circulating heavily


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## grapeman (Jun 23, 2012)

It looks like the red button is not seating well. When you tip it sideways or upside down it gets worse. That button is an air intake, so if it is leaking, that is where the air is likely coming from.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2012)

Calvin, I would try to elimiate the possible sources one at a time. I suggest that you dissassemble the fittings and housing and wrap the threads with a goodly layer of pipe tape. If is still leaks after that, the air has to be coming in thru another opening in the top, e.g. the air intake as Rich suggests. Due to the water in the threads, I am betting that the problem lies there.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jun 23, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Calvin, I would try to elimiate the possible sources one at a time. I suggest that you dissassemble the fittings and housing and wrap the threads with a goodly layer of pipe tape. If is still leaks after that, the air has to be coming in thru another opening in the top, e.g. the air intake as Rich suggests. Due to the water in the threads, I am betting that the problem lies there.


 
I know my first housing I had to remove that pressure relief and apoxy the hole closed. I also in the past - just had a bad housing for what ever reason - but for 11 dollars it is not worth the hassle as well -
http://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-158117-Filter-Housing.asp


I just rembered that I tapped the inside of the filter housing to thread in a 1/2" plastic pipe so it will suck all the way to the bottom , that should elimate all your problems hopefully.


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## WildBill (Jun 23, 2012)

Mine did that on my initial run using water, I just didn't have the housing tight enough.


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## TJsBasement (Jun 23, 2012)

Shouldnt the O ring block liquid from even getting to the threading, looks like it on the video.


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## WildBill (Jun 23, 2012)

Yes,the O-ring blocks the liquid in and seals the air out. I just didn't have it tight enough to the O-ring. It frustrated the heck outa me till I noticed the water was in the threads. I tightened it again and it worked like a champ.


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## jvernice (Nov 10, 2012)

*Why Vacuum?*

I am curious as to why you are using vacuum filtration. It is much more effective to push the wine through the filter. I am an industrial chemist and I very rarely see a vacuum filtration system. Try putting your filter after the pump and you will see much better performance and you will never have this problem. You do need to monitor differential pressure so as to not exceed the recommendation of the media supplier (just like a pool filter). Most filtration systems for small systems don't have a differential pressure gauge, so just make sure your standard pressure gauge is placed on the inlet side of the filter. An increase in pressure indicates clogging and reduced flow. A sudden drop in pressure indicates a hole in the media or "blow-by" around the gaskets. Since your tubing is most likely very short after the filter, you can assume outlet pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure and therefore, is the same as differential pressure.


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## BobF (Nov 10, 2012)

Does the o-ring have any lube on it? Silicone lube works wonders keeping these from binding as you tighten the housing.


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## vacuumpumpman (Nov 10, 2012)

jvernice said:


> I am curious as to why you are using vacuum filtration. It is much more effective to push the wine through the filter. I am an industrial chemist and I very rarely see a vacuum filtration system. Try putting your filter after the pump and you will see much better performance and you will never have this problem. You do need to monitor differential pressure so as to not exceed the recommendation of the media supplier (just like a pool filter). Most filtration systems for small systems don't have a differential pressure gauge, so just make sure your standard pressure gauge is placed on the inlet side of the filter. An increase in pressure indicates clogging and reduced flow. A sudden drop in pressure indicates a hole in the media or "blow-by" around the gaskets. Since your tubing is most likely very short after the filter, you can assume outlet pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure and therefore, is the same as differential pressure.


 

To answer some of your questions - vacuum would mainly only be used for wine because you want as little contact with Oxygen, it does not come in contact with any impellers or airrates the wine using a vacuum system.It can also fill bottles very easily and very little maintanice and cleanup is a snap also.

The typical filters should be able to filter 60 gallons plus (all depending on your clarity ) and if you notice that the vacuum is increasing and the flow has slowed down - I would come to the conclusion that the filter is partially plugged


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## ffemt128 (Nov 10, 2012)

BobF said:


> Does the o-ring have any lube on it? Silicone lube works wonders keeping these from binding as you tighten the housing.


 
I had a very small amount of keg lub on the O-Ring. No binding and seals well.


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## vacuumpumpman (Nov 10, 2012)

Would mineral oil work as well ? Atleast I know that it is food grade - not saying the others are not - but I do not normally carry keg lub - but maybe I should ?


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## BobF (Nov 10, 2012)

I wouldn't hesitate to use mineral oil. The amount amount that should be used is very, very little.

Did I mention not much at all?


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## jvernice (Nov 11, 2012)

Do you have a vent valve on the filter housing? If so, it will open under vacuum. You cannot use a filter housing with a vent valve as I mentioned in a previous post, these housing are not meant for vacuum filtration.


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## vacuumpumpman (Nov 11, 2012)

I have noticed alot of people on this forum have no problem with the relief valve on top and others do. I would recommend this one that has no vent on the top - if you were going to purchase one.
http://filter.filtersfast.com/search?w=pentek+158326&asug=&view=list&submit1.x=0&submit1.y=0


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## Wade E (Nov 11, 2012)

Ive been using the vent release cap for years with no problem but maybe slight variations in the caps are the difference and some may open, I guess it makes sense, just weird that I and many others have never had a problem.


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## jvernice (Nov 12, 2012)

If you think about it, the vent is spring-to-close and therefore negative pressure (vacuum) will provide a force against the normal spring action and you will get an air leak. If you insist on using this housing, some valves may be replaced with a screw.
I am still curious as to why you insist on using vacuum filtration. In my 35 years of industrial experience I have rarely seen a vacuum filtration system. There are so many negatives to using vacuum versus pressure filtration systems.


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## Deezil (Nov 12, 2012)

jvernice said:


> I am still curious as to why you insist on using vacuum filtration. In my 35 years of industrial experience I have rarely seen a vacuum filtration system. There are so many negatives to using vacuum versus pressure filtration systems.



It's because we're working with wine

If you're not pulling it with a vacuum, then you're pushing it with..... a propeller? Like an aquarium pump? Cant send your wine through something like that unless its made for wine (expensive) because it will beat up/oxidize/ruin the wine you send through the pump..

Or are you thinking that if you pressurized the carboy holding the wine that it would go through the path of least resistance making its way through a racking cane & tubing into a clean carboy? I dont know how much pressure that would take & it would probably depend some on the elevation of the working carboy & the clean carboy... And then to pressurize a carboy enough to push wine through a filter? I dunno how i'd feel standing around that


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## vacuumpumpman (Nov 12, 2012)

jvernice said:


> If you think about it, the vent is spring-to-close and therefore negative pressure (vacuum) will provide a force against the normal spring action and you will get an air leak. If you insist on using this housing, some valves may be replaced with a screw.
> 
> Unless if you use this one, which has no vent at all -
> http://filter.filtersfast.com/search?w=pentek+158326&asug=&view=list&submit1.x=0 &submit1.y=0
> ...


 
To answer some of your questions - vacuum would mainly only be used for wine because you want as little contact with Oxygen, it does not come in contact with any impellers or airrates the wine using a vacuum system.It can also fill bottles very easily and very little maintanice and cleanup is a snap also.


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## BobF (Nov 12, 2012)

Multi-purpose is the crux of it for me. I use vacuum for racking/degassing, so I naturally want to use the equipment for filtering too. There is no way to go the other way. You can't degas with a pump!


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## Wade E (Nov 12, 2012)

Yep, vacuum is way better on your wine then pushing and you cant degas by pushing unless your splash racking. Its also way better on your carboy to transfer as a carboys shape will hold it together way better under vacuum then be pressurized!


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## jvernice (Nov 13, 2012)

I now understand why you want to use vacuum, but you must then deal with the demons associated with not using proper equipment. You can buy a beverage pump with FDA approved contact surfaces for about $200 (http://www.bigbrandwater.com/550se32gpmsu.html). A system which is primed will NOT introduce any air (oxygen) as you are only pushing wine. Cavitation is not usually an issue with pumps of this magnitude, especially the one cites above (3.2 gpm). The only time air would be en-trained would be at the very end of the batch. As my father taught me, use the proper tools for the job and the job will be that much easier.


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## John Prince (Mar 1, 2013)

There is a pressure relief button that sometimes leaks. Take the top off and tighten the screw from the bottom. I've had problems with that before.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 1, 2013)

John Prince said:


> There is a pressure relief button that sometimes leaks. Take the top off and tighten the screw from the bottom. I've had problems with that before.


 
John 
there is typically a stop on the button part so you can only tighten it soo much. The best option is to purchase one without the release valve 
pentek 158326 = $7.99
pentek 158116 = 15.60
from filterfast.com

or you can always remove the valve and use a stainless steel bolt and washers or orings on both side to completely seal it off


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## John Prince (Mar 1, 2013)

Just when I thought I didn't need anything else. Thanks, I'll order it tomorrow.


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## REDBOATNY (Mar 2, 2013)

I posted on another thread an easy way to bypass the relief valve. Remove the spring, and either shorten the screw, or drill and tap the red button through, tighten the screw securely against the seal.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 19, 2013)

I would like to let everyone know that I started a new thread on 
Tips and tricks for the whole house filtration system - If you ever had a problem with the whole house filtration - I believe I might of found a solution for you -

see link and let me know your comments on that thread - please

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/tips-tricks-using-whole-house-filter-37737/


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## jvernice (Apr 20, 2013)

Hello calvindcd! What you are seeing are bubbles from the filter media. Since you are using a depth filter and its surface area is so great, it could take a very long time to "extract" the bubbles from the filter. Yes, these are bubble that must be displaced by water (or wine). If you pump water through it, you will get rid of the bubbles much faster; and if you insist, you can then switch to vacuum filtering. By the way, pumping though the filter is always better than vacuum filtering. I know I will foster some controversy from a lot of home brewers, but I work on industrial scale filtration and have decades of experience with filtration systems, and pumping not only eliminates this problem (as well as many others), but these filters and housing are designed to be used under pressure, not vacuum. Give pumping a try and you will not be sorry.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 20, 2013)

jvernice said:


> Hello calvindcd! What you are seeing are bubbles from the filter media. Since you are using a depth filter and its surface area is so great, it could take a very long time to "extract" the bubbles from the filter. Yes, these are bubble that must be displaced by water (or wine). If you pump water through it, you will get rid of the bubbles much faster .



I believe that calvindcd mentioned this in his first post 
*"I did notice that there was air bubbles traveling up the threads of the housing suggesting an air leak. I reseated, retightened, etc but nothing"*

With that being said - I would assume that he possibly has the wrong type filter or housing. It really has nothing to do with vacuum or pressure. 
Please check out this thread to make sure that you are using the proper filter vs housing whether you are using vacuum or pressure

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/tips-tricks-using-whole-house-filter-37737/


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## rhattin (Apr 26, 2013)

*What vacuum level is too much?*

Sveral posts in different threads have asked the question what level of vacuum should you draw either as you rack/transfer your wine from one glass carboy to another and thereby degas the wine further, it or as you vacuum fill your wine bottles. 
A couple of considerations: one is the integrity of the glass carboys, and the level of the wine in the carboys. My approach to date is to max the vacuum draw, which for my pump is 27 in Hg, or about .52 psi absolute ( 14.7 - .52 relative) . This is a lot of vacuum and I suspect my gauge may be misreading although I have no easy way to check it. No effects so far on the glass carboys, but it certainly does a number on the plastic ones. I feel a lot safer using the carboys that have the extra ridges running vertically ( have a green tint to them). 
The second consideration is the effect on the dissolved CO2, and the ethanol, that is is solution. I have noticed that if I add small stainless steel screws, to the bottom of the recieving wine, I will get much more Carbon dioxide release at lower vaccum levels than without. My guess is they are nucleation sites for the CO2 coming out of solution. More importantly tho' is the effect of very strong vacuum on the alcohol in solution. I finally found a boiling point versusatmosphere table for ethanol (ethanol producers database). Given the average temp that we work at is 20 deg C, then


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## jvernice (Apr 27, 2013)

Do yourself a favor and stop using vacuum filtration. There are so many more potential problems to vacuum filtration systems than pressure filtration. Don't take my word for it, just try it and then let the facts be your deciding factors.
I guarantee that your problems will be eliminated.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 27, 2013)

jvernice said:


> Do yourself a favor and stop using vacuum filtration. There are so many more potential problems to vacuum filtration systems than pressure filtration. Don't take my word for it, just try it and then let the facts be your deciding factors.
> I guarantee that your problems will be eliminated.



Jvernice - I personally talked to rhattin the other day, his main questions were what levels of vacuum for the different procedures.You have expressed your views before about how you like pressure filtration. If you read his whole article not once does he mention anything about filtration


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## jvernice (Apr 28, 2013)

Sorry about that. This was meant to be posted to another topic.


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## derunner (Apr 28, 2013)

Was there an answer to he air bubbles?

I found i had to remove the red air release button and put in a stainless screw to firmly pull the gasket and seal this opening. these filter housings are made for positive pressure and not vacuums so they are going to pull in air if they are spring loaded. Also i had to use teflon tape on the npt fittings and really tighten the hoses on the clamps. Works well now.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 28, 2013)

derunner said:


> Was there an answer to he air bubbles?
> 
> I found i had to remove the red air release button and put in a stainless screw to firmly pull the gasket and seal this opening. these filter housings are made for positive pressure and not vacuums so they are going to pull in air if they are spring loaded. Also i had to use teflon tape on the npt fittings and really tighten the hoses on the clamps. Works well now.



Take a look at this thread - 
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/tips-tricks-using-whole-house-filter-37737/

I also do not recommend the relief valve as like you noted it will suck in air. And yes telfon tape on NPT threads is always a good idea - What size hose are you using for the filter barbs ??


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## derunner (Apr 28, 2013)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Take a look at this thread -
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/tips-tricks-using-whole-house-filter-37737/
> 
> I also do not recommend the relief valve as like you noted it will suck in air. And yes telfon tape on NPT threads is always a good idea - What size hose are you using for the filter barbs ??



I'm using the thicker vacuum hose you sent me. Its extra thickness may require clamps be firmed up more, or perhaps all hoses need to snuged up tight. I used a nut driver, but a small ratchet my might have given more torque on the clamp.


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## John Prince (May 12, 2013)

If there is a pressure relief valve on the top that could be your problem.


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