# Wine room hell - and a question



## spaniel (May 7, 2016)

I posted a pic earlier of a rack I"m building for a new wine room filling the space underneath our staircase. As we planned the remodel (half our downstairs is involved) I reiterated two things to the contractor regarding the wine room - the entire thing needed plastic vapor barrier on the warm side of the walls, and minimum R19 insulation.

In cleaning out the garage space the contractor has been using for supplies, I realized that there was no trace of vapor barrier. I had been traveling when he built the walls on and we had conversed about the insulation, but I'd assumed the vapor barrier was a no-brainer in this situation for an experienced contractor, especially since we had discussed it multiple times.

I conversed with my wife, who was there more through the process…we are 99% convinced that my brand new wine room was constructed with no vapor barrier.

It is going to be a fun conversation telling him that he's not getting paid unless he strips it back down to studs and re-builds it correctly.

Which leads me to my question. It has become clear to me during this process that the guy has zero planning ability and if something confuses him at all, he gives up and moves on to something else. The wine room is built over a crawl space, and while the floor is tiled he did nothing to insulate of vapor barrier underneath the floor in the crawl space. I actually can't find any decent information on what to do under the floor when a crawl space is involved. Should this be insulated with vapor barrier as the walls?


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## Mismost (May 7, 2016)

When dealing with contractors....most verbal communication is useless. You need to actually draw pictures for their use. We have a special name for them, we call them plans. Not taking sides here. Experience has taught me most construction problems are really communication problems. Hope you get it sorted out.


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## spaniel (May 7, 2016)

Mismost said:


> When dealing with contractors....most verbal communication is useless. You need to actually draw pictures for their use. We have a special name for them, we call them plans. Not taking sides here. Experience has taught me most construction problems are really communication problems. Hope you get it sorted out.



He had detailed schematics, to scale, to the inch. We had detailed discussions, which included a plastic vapor barrier. If a professional contractor does not understand the condensation risks inherent to a wall with a 20-30F potential temperature differential, they have no business in the contracting business. Should a contractor not know the business better than a customer paying for their experience?

No, the schematics didn't blow out and show the exact position of the vapor barrier. Nor did I dictate the routing of the plumbing or HVAC for him. This is what you pay people who claim to have the capability to do the job to do for you.

My repeated emphasis on the need for a vapor barrier was overkill, if anything. If he didn't understand the job, he should have asked questions or researched it. Googling "building a wine room" yields a plethora of informative articles, each one emphasizing the importance of a proper vapor barrier.

I've actually gauged my expectations by asking 3 friends who have careers totally unrelated to construction what they would do if they were constructing an insulated wall with a 20-30F potential temperature differential. An IT manager, an entomologist, and a sales guy. All three knew the condensation risk and the need for a vapor barrier with no prompting. So I don't think I'm out of line for expecting a professional contractor to understand this. In my career when I agree to a deliverable, I am accountable to know how to do it, learn how to do it, or ask questions to make sure I understand. I do not think my expectations are unreasonable.

Of note, the contractor had to move a single light fixture 4 times because he couldn't take proper measurements and plan ahead…too close to wall with fixture in hand before he did it, then too close with globe attached, then too low to allow for mirror he had in hand, then too low to clear sink assembly he had in hand to plan.


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## TonyR (May 8, 2016)

That is why it is a VERY good idea to get references for a contractor and to check the references, everyone has a phone. Or you learn how to do it yourself::


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## bkisel (May 8, 2016)

I've been burnt a number of times to the tune of several thousands of dollars. On two occasions that I can recall it was because I failed to get the details written down. On one occasion I talked with a lawyer friend of mine and her advise was that that some battles are not worth fighting. Lick your wounds and next time get it in writing is kinda what she said.

Thankfully most of my experience with contractors over the years has been positive. I've gotten what I paid for and sometimes more.

All this being said I do hope your issue works out to your satisfaction.


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## Mismost (May 8, 2016)

Your "contractor" sounds like the guys that painted my house! I marked siding boards I wanted replaced, it was written into the contract that I "really didn't need", they quoted the replacement in the cost, and then just used tons of caulking to "fix" those boards....you don't fix rotten, you replace it! It did get nasty. Turns out these guys were actually stealing this job from their boss and doing it on the side. The company owner made it right...when he found out what was going on.

I think you do need to insulate under the crawl space...that'll help.

Another thought I had and bear in mind, I hate painting, there may be a coating you can apply to new wall that doubles as a vapor barrier....actually, I was thinking of something like that Rhino bed liner you use to paint truck beds. Pricey, but as I recall, this is a small area.


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## sour_grapes (May 8, 2016)

Mismost said:


> Another thought I had and bear in mind, I hate painting, there may be a coating you can apply to new wall that doubles as a vapor barrier....actually, I was thinking of something like that Rhino bed liner you use to paint truck beds. Pricey, but as I recall, this is a small area.



Shellac is good. BIN Shellac has a perm rating of 0.4, qualifying it as a Class II vapor barrier. I went this route on one project. 

Obviously, I hope you get satisfaction from the company, but this may be an option just in case.


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## Runningwolf (May 9, 2016)

Didn't the insulation come with a vapor barrier on it?


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## mrramsey (May 10, 2016)

Albeit I do most of my own work but even then I photograph all stages of construction as a reference. If they used the kraft faced insulation that would be the vapor barrier. It should have been installed with the paper side toward the warm side of the room (opposite of the cellar interior).

If they did that you should be ok. Also insulate the floor in the same manor.


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## MattWI (May 10, 2016)

Sounds like my neighbors contractor. He started working on the house 3 years ago and has spent the last year fixing the issues that arose bc of corners he cut. He was a subcontractor (painter) who wanted to pick up extra work.

Get your job specs in writing and know that not all contractors (like any other professional) are created equal. Handyman types, in particular, have a habit for approximating (or delivering something that will work like what you asked for vs. delivering what you asked for)


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## JohnT (May 11, 2016)

What a nightmare! I feel really bad for you. 

All I can say is.. Stick to your guns!


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## spaniel (Sep 11, 2016)

Runningwolf said:


> Didn't the insulation come with a vapor barrier on it?



The kraft paper on typical wall insulation is not a real vapor barrier. And reversed into a wall, it will do very little to actually stop the movement of moisture. Completely insufficient. A real plastic vapor barrier is required.

An update.

After discussion, he claimed no knowledge of multiple prior discussions regarding the vapor barrier, but agreed to rip it to the studs and re-do it. I sent him multiple web links on the proper way to built the wall in a wine cellar. He tried to do it when I could not be there, but I took off work and showed up unexpectedly. He had ripped off the drywall, and was in the process of installing the vapor barrier right behind it, on the cold side of the wall, on top of the insulation. I reiterated the proper contstruction, to which his reply was "but that will take all day". I told him that sounded like a personal problem. After delving into the fact that I had sent him multiple examples of the proper way to do it, and the fact that a contractor should have a basic understanding of a vapor barrier, he quit and walked away from it. He said he didn't like being criticized, I said I didn't like incompetence, and that was that. Last time I take a gentlemen's agreement and pay more than I'm comfortable with in advance on a handshake that it will be done right.

While initial impressions were good, once we got into the job we realized he was a drunk. He'd show up around 9, shuffle around in a hungover daze for a couple hours unable to answer my wife's questions, and accomplish perhaps an hour of work before taking a 2 hour lunch. He'd show up again around 1, work a couple hours, and call it a day at 3.

He was simultaneously working on a coworker's kitchen. That guy had to hire another guy to re-do most of the job. He had him install a range vent, he ran it into the attic and ended it there. So much for the person who referred him.

So I spent all my free time since my prior post re-doing much of what he did in my kitchen and doing the entire wine cellar myself. The electrical work was scary, and I still have to re-do the dryer vent. It's done right, up and running, and functioning well. Guess I know drywall now.  When he had previously installed the cooler, he over-sized the hole and hadn't even insulated 2 inches all around it.

I'll post pics when I have them loaded the right place. I've got room for around 400 bottles, plus about 9-12 carboys of in process wine in the lower section (it's built underneath a staircase). It's so nice to be fermenting my Cayuga in a finely controlled environment rather than fighting my $15 Craigslist fridge.


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## AZMDTed (Sep 12, 2016)

Well, I'm glad it's done and you're able to enjoy the cellar now. You've got both a story about him as well as the pride of doing it yourself. Costly, but some things are best taken for the lesson learned and just move on. 

It's a shame that we can't trust everyone and have a verbal agreement and a handshake. But as you say, now you can do drywall


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