# Throwing in the towel on the Brunello.



## Rocky (Jul 26, 2012)

I think I have taken this Brunello as far as I can and I am at my wits end, and believe me, that is not a long journey!

This Brunello was made from 3 Mosto Bello juice buckets that I bought late in the season last year. When I got them home and into a fermenter, my first SG reading was 1.058. I knew I had a problem then but I decided to go ahead anyway. Being 180 miles from the supplier, I had no alternative. It fermented down to about 1.010 and then stopped. After many tries, I got it going again and it finished out at about 0.996. The wine is very, very dark and not a nice color at that, more a deep purple than a red. It has a slightly "off taste" not spoiled but not fruity.

I have three 5 gallon carboys of it plus a 1/2 gallon jug. I made three+ bottles of "port" from the 1/2 gallon by adding sweetened Brandy (Christian Brothers, 40% alcohol) to bring it to 20+% ABV. The port is not bad but three bottles will last me for a long time. 

For the other three carboys, right now I plan to bottle some and just put them away for a year or two, make some more port, cook with some and turn some to vinegar. I am open to ideas as to what to do with the wine. 

The lesson here for me is to buy my juice buckets early in the year being sure they are not half fermented when purchased.


----------



## robie (Jul 26, 2012)

Hey Rocky,

Tell me more about the color and the off taste. I am no expert, but if we throw out enough ideas, we might come up with something.
Is the color brickess - oxidized?
Is the off taste an oxidized taste or a chemical taste?
Does it taste of burnt rubber?

Seems if it partially fermented in the bucket before you got it, it could have some issues with volatile acid, but that taste is generally an acetone or nail polish remover taste. Take a whiff of some nail polish remover and decide if it is similar to your wine.

If the wine is oxidized, you can treat that. That dark color just might be oxidation, though. Of course you already know what oxidized wine tastes like.

Have you tried treating the wine with some bentonite? A teaspoon stirred in really well and allowed to settle can take a lot of bad stuff down with it. Better to do a smaller bench test.

Try a bench test sample with some tannin powder.

Try heating the wine to about 60C; let it cool and taste. If that helps, it could be some pyrazines.

Take a sample and shack it for about a minute to over aerate it. That might point to something, too.

Hate to hear about such a large batch being a possible throw-away.


----------



## Wade E (Jul 26, 2012)

Just another reason why I wont buy these buckets, IMO they dont come out as good as a good kit and are a lot more work and usually dont even come close to a good kit.


----------



## Rock (Jul 26, 2012)

Wade E said:


> Just another reason why I wont buy these buckets, IMO they dont come out as good as a good kit and are a lot more work and usually dont even come close to a good kit.


Yea Wade you keep buying the kit wines,more grapes for us.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks for the great reply, Robie. Lots of good ideas there. I will get back to it tomorrow and answer your questions. In a nutshell, it seems to have a very, very slight oxidized taste that the alcohol in the Brandy completely washed away when I made the Port. I will investigate your other suggestions. This is a great help. I hate to give up on wine.


----------



## Wade E (Jul 27, 2012)

Hey Rock. In no way do I think kits are better then grapes!!!!!! I just think the kits are better then most juice buckets.


----------



## DoctorCAD (Jul 27, 2012)

Real Brunello is often described as freakishly black, so the color might be right. The taste is generally VERY strong, not very "berry-like" at all, some might describe it as "off".

Maybe its fine...


----------



## Bartman (Jul 27, 2012)

Wade, I tend to agree about juice buckets and kits, but there are always exceptions. As usual, it goes back to "you get what you pay for" (hopefully). The Mosto Bello buckets were listed at $54 (retail) for 5 gal, which is pretty dang cheap for that much juice (compared to $100+ for Mosti Mondiale's Chile Fresco 6 gal buckets). I'm not trying to beat you down Rocky, but I would say the quality of this juice is questionable from the start. Some folks enjoy the challenge of making something good out of less-than-stellar ingredients, but to me, it's not worth the time and effort, even if the result is passable.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 27, 2012)

Bart, I understand what you are saying and let me give you another perspective. I made 12 gallons of Verdicchio from juice and it is great. I made 18 gallons of Cabernet Sauvignon from juice it is turning out to be one of my best wines. In the interest of full disclosure, I did add two Syrah grape packs to this wine in primary. I have tried Mosti Mondiale's Zinfandel and Cabernet Sauvignon in the "All Juice Original" buckets and found them to be poor, very thin and lacking in taste. At the same time, I have also made MM AJO Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Grigio and found them to be excellent. 

There does not seem to be any hard and fast rule but _generally_, white juice buckets seem to be good. This would square with how white wine is made, i.e. crushing and pressing the grapes immediately and not leaving the juice on the skins. Red juice buckets seem to be a craps shoot. Kits with grape packs and adding grape packs to juice buckets seem to result in a better wine.

The argument of grapes vs. juice vs. kits will rage on forever. I have made lots of wine from all three sources. Wine from grapes can be great and it can also be poor, depending on the year. There is no question that making wine from grapes requires more work, more equipment and is an order of magnitude more "messy." For me, it is not worth all that to make a wine that is marginally better (maybe!) than a wine I can make from good juice or a top quality kit, employing some minor additions and ameliorations. Just my opinion and experience, not trying to convince anyone one way or the other.


----------



## shoebiedoo (Jul 27, 2012)

I DO think the grape packs help immensely when making the red "bucket wines" The whites I've made have all been real good. The Verdicchio Rocky made was superb! My Barolo (from juice) is one of the best red's I've made and I'm real proud of it. I did, just order a 4 pack of the Fior D?uva grape packs from ebay for the fall buckets. We'll see how they turn out.

I've often thought about going with frozen must but the cost factor almost triples  So, I'm sticking to juice AND buckets.


----------



## Wade E (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree that white wine buckets are better as are cheap white wine kits and also agree that the Mosti All juice buckets suck!!! Other then that IMO you either need to buy high end kits or take it to the next level with grapes and all the equipment and knowledge!


----------



## joeswine (Jul 27, 2012)

*When good wines gone bad?*

NOT SUCH A FAR STEP TO TAKE ,FROM GOOD TO NOT SO GOOD,WHITE WINES ALWAYS TEND TO WORK OUT BETTER AS A RULE WHETHER ITS FRESH JUICE OR KITS,BUT THEIR IN LIES THE TRICK,BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF TANNINS,AND HEAVY PIGMENT,THEY IN THEMSELVES ONCE COMPLETED ARE WHAT THEY ARE ,LITE,CRISP AND USUALLY THIN IN BODY,THAT'S THEIR NORMAL MAKE UP,WHILE REDS TEND TO TAKE ON HEAVER MORE ROBUST TASTE DUE TO THE TANNINS.,AS FAR AS JUICE TO KITS OR FRESH JUICE IN GENERAL,OVER THE PAST 3 TO 4 YEARS I've NOTICE A MARKED DIFFERENCE IN THE BODY AS WELL AS THE AROMA (VIRTUALLY NONE)IN THE CHILEANS ,THE CALS AND ITYS ARE NOT FAR BEHIND EITHER i THINK THERE CUT TO MUCH,(TMO),ROCKY, MOST WINES ARE CORRECTABLE ,UNLESS THEIR VERY ACIDIC AND OR EXTREMELY OXIDIZED,SOME SMELLS CAN BE CORRECTED THROUGH FINE FILTERING,STRONG DEGASSING,TO BRING THEM AROUND AND TASTE CAN ALWAYS BE ADJUSTED SEND ME A COUPLE OF BOTTLES AND I'll EXCHANGE THEM WITH YOU ,DON'T GIVE UP YET ,...


----------



## joea132 (Jul 27, 2012)

I would put it aside and let it age for a while. Age does some incredible things to a wine and maybe will smooth out the flavor into what you're looking for. Might as well let it sit. It couldn't hurt.


----------



## joeswine (Jul 29, 2012)

*time in a bottle*

In some cases its works ,but in most a defect only gets infectious and with out proper corrective action is a true waste of wine.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 12, 2012)

I dug up this old thread to give you all an update on what is happening with the Brunello. Back in July, I was really out of ideas and generated this thread. I got a lot of great help from you all. Thank you!

I decided to keep the wine and see what happens with it after it had some age on it. I adjusted the SO2 and waited. In the meantime (here comes another MM bashing) I had a double batch of _MM AllJuice Masters Edition Granbarolo_ going. Even though this kit has both a grape pack and raisins (and I used both), it was coming out much thinner and more acidic than I had expected. I wondered if blending this wine with the long suffering Brunello would help. Afterall, the Brunello was very heavy, very dark and lacking any tartness whatsoever. I drew out some sample wine from both varieties and tried three blending ratios: 3:1, 2:1 and 1:1 in a bench test. All three were a major improvement over either of the wines alone and the 2:1 was to our (Bev & mine) taste the best. The long and the short of it is, I blended two 5 gallon carboys of Brunello with one 5 gallon carboy of the Granbarolo and now have 3 carboys of a wine (_Granbrunolo?_) that I feel is really good. I still have 1 each 5 gallon carboy of both Brunello and Granbarolo, which I plan to let go as they are to see what, if anything, happens with some serious aging.

The lesson that I have come away with is to not give up on a wine (as long as it is not spoiled) just because the taste, aroma, mouth, etc. is not what I like. Blending wines is a means of combining wines that have strengths and weaknesses that complement, that is provide what is lacking, in another wine. This may not work in all cases and I advise going slowly, but it sure worked for me.

Thanks, again, for all your help.


----------



## Wade E (Oct 12, 2012)

So glad all that money didnt go down the drain!!! Nothing better then makers. G chicken salad out of chicken sh!t it it working out!


----------



## joeswine (Oct 12, 2012)

*Decisions*

That is why I started, when good wines gone bad, what to do , how do it and do not give up. P


----------



## rob (Oct 12, 2012)

Joe,

Is When Good Wine Gone Bad available in a readers digest version


----------



## Rocky (Dec 11, 2012)

I wanted to post an update to this thread. Yesterday, I filtered all three 5 gallon carboys of the 2:1 Blend of Brunello:Granbarolo. I put 13 gallons (2 each 5 gallon and 1 each 3 gallon) up for some more aging and I bottled 9 bottles of the blend. We are giving it away as part of our Christmas Gift to our "Gourmet Club," which is completely misnamed. (A more accurate description would be the "Gourmand Club") Anyway, the reason for including it in our gift is that we had a blind taste testing of three ratios of the Brunello and Granbarolo at one of our "Gourmet Nights" and the 2:1 was the favorite. I call it "Brurolo, the Gourmet's Choice." 

The important point of all this is I had two wines which I found lacking. Luckily for me, the negatives of one were the positives of the other, and verse visa (yes, I know that is backward but that is how my Father used to say it). So, if you have a wine or two that is lacking, try to define what is lacking and remedy it. (Also, be sure to read the thread, "When good wine goes bad," or words to that effect, by Joeswine!)

Happy winemaking to all. (BTW, as I write this, I have a glass of my Brurolo going (not the first) and I am felling really "toasty.")


----------



## robie (Dec 11, 2012)

That works for me!!! Glad it turned out OK. There is something really nasty about pouring wine down the drain.


----------



## joeswine (Dec 11, 2012)

*Sometimes you win*

As amateur winemakers, the quality of the product that we start off with is very very important, like Rocky. Some of the buckets of juice I have bought were very good and some not up to par .. I stated in the past that I think that the bucket juice is not always up to par , and I stand behind that .Rocky, sometimes you have to throw the towel,when it comes to white wines it is there or not, the must that settles in the bottom of the bucket during fermentation tells you how much solids are in the wine structure. Usually, very little in the whites but are much stronger in the Reds, sometimes it is better to know when to throwing in the towel, taken from a guy who knows how to Frankenstein, a wine, better to keep your standards high, do not you think,?


----------



## Rock (Dec 11, 2012)

Really Rocky?Giving away wine that you say is not worthy?I hope not.I would never give wine to my friends that i was not proud of!!!!


----------



## Rocky (Dec 12, 2012)

Joe and Rock, I guess that I did not explain myself very accurately. The blended wine, "Brurolo," is really great. It is one of the best wines that I have ever made. That is my point. I had two wines that were disappointing and was able to blend them into a wine that I am very proud to give to friends. Sorry that I was not clear on that. I plan to enter this wine in the 2013 Pittsbugh Amateur Winemakers Competition.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Dec 12, 2012)

Rocky, I think I'll have to taste one to be certain that it is really that good, you can feel free to send it to my address at....lol


----------



## Tom_S (Dec 12, 2012)

robie said:


> There is something really nasty about pouring wine down the drain.



Unless it's really nasty wine.


----------



## GreginND (Dec 12, 2012)

Pumpkinman said:


> Rocky, I think I'll have to taste one to be certain that it is really that good, you can feel free to send it to my address at....lol



Yes, we need proof!


----------



## Rock (Dec 12, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Joe and Rock, I guess that I did not explain myself very accurately. The blended wine, "Brurolo," is really great. It is one of the best wines that I have ever made. That is my point. I had two wines that were disappointing and was able to blend them into a wine that I am very proud to give to friends. Sorry that I was not clear on that. I plan to enter this wine in the 2013 Pittsbugh Amateur Winemakers Competition.


OOOOWell cheers to that.Good luck in the competition.


----------



## Rocky (May 8, 2013)

Update: Today I bottled 66 bottles of "Gourmet Select," the last of my Brunello-Barolo blend. A few weeks ago I bottled the 1 each 5 gallon carboys of straight Brunello and Granbarolo, both of which were improving. Thus endeth the odyssey of my disappointing Brunello (from Italian juice) and Granbarolo (from MM AllJuice Masters Edition).

The point I would like to leave you all with is never to give up on a wine and always try to find a way to make it something you love. I used to tell my little daughter (who is now 46), "Christopher Columbus never gave up. Benjamin Franklin never gave up. Oliver Twiddledee (Who's he???)... See? You don't know because he _gave up_."

Happy winemaking!


----------



## ibglowin (May 8, 2013)

Good one! 



Rocky said:


> Oliver Twiddledee (Who's he???)... See? You don't know because he _gave up_."
> 
> Happy winemaking!


----------



## robie (May 8, 2013)

Great to hear that brunello finally made it!

This time next week I'll be up near Venice tasting some barolo. Verona a few days later for sure sampling some Amarone. The agriturismo, where we're staying outside of Verona also has their own vineyard and winery, where they produce Amarone. The wine maker is supposed to give us a tour of the winery and of course some tastings. When I raise a glass, I'll toast you, Rocky.


----------



## Julie (May 8, 2013)

Rocky,  all I can say is thank God you finally came to your senses. Just remember any wine that is not coming out the way you want it to is headed to the blending room!


----------



## Rocky (May 8, 2013)

robie said:


> Great to hear that brunello finally made it!
> 
> This time next week I'll be up near Venice tasting some barolo. Verona a few days later for sure sampling some Amarone. The agriturismo, where we're staying outside of Verona also has their own vineyard and winery, where they produce Amarone. The wine maker is supposed to give us a tour of the winery and of course some tastings. When I raise a glass, I'll toast you, Rocky.


 
Good for you Robie. I hope you have a great time in Italy. That "Agriturismo" system that they have in Italy is truly amazing. I believe that the farm, vineyard, cheese factory, etc. has to earn at least half of their income from the production of their specialty and the remainder from tourism, in order to be classified as an "Agriturismo" and be subsidized by the Italian government. When we stayed near Pienza in southern Tuscany, I got the feeling that more than half of their income came from tourism because they insisted on payment in cash for most things. In any case, it was the best vacation that we have ever had. We plan to return in 2014.


----------



## Dugger (May 9, 2013)

robie said:


> Great to hear that brunello finally made it!
> 
> This time next week I'll be up near Venice tasting some barolo. Verona a few days later for sure sampling some Amarone. The agriturismo, where we're staying outside of Verona also has their own vineyard and winery, where they produce Amarone. The wine maker is supposed to give us a tour of the winery and of course some tastings. When I raise a glass, I'll toast you, Rocky.



Robie - if you are handy and have time I would recommend visiting Castlefranco Veneto, just putside of Venice, toward Verona. It is a great town to sight see, especially the old walled part and they have a wonderful outdoor market. We spent some time there with an exchange student we had previously hosted. Great old world experience without the hordes of tourists in Venice. In olden days the merchants of Venice went there to vacation.


----------



## robie (May 9, 2013)

Dugger said:


> Robie - if you are handy and have time I would recommend visiting Castlefranco Veneto, just putside of Venice, toward Verona. It is a great town to sight see, especially the old walled part and they have a wonderful outdoor market. We spent some time there with an exchange student we had previously hosted. Great old world experience without the hordes of tourists in Venice. In olden days the merchants of Venice went there to vacation.



Thanks. I'll take a look at it. We are staying a few miles west of Venice. (I don't have it in front of me but it just might be we are staying where you are suggesting we visit.) Neither of us really care for spending time in Venice, it was just a part of the package. We plan on spending 1/2 day there, just so we can say we've been there. The rest of the two day allotted to that region will be spent seeing other places and traveling down the Adriatic Sea coast.


----------



## robie (May 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Good for you Robie. I hope you have a great time in Italy. That "Agriturismo" system that they have in Italy is truly amazing. I believe that the farm, vineyard, cheese factory, etc. has to earn at least half of their income from the production of their specialty and the remainder from tourism, in order to be classified as an "Agriturismo" and be subsidized by the Italian government. When we stayed near Pienza in southern Tuscany, I got the feeling that more than half of their income came from tourism because they insisted on payment in cash for most things. In any case, it was the best vacation that we have ever had. We plan to return in 2014.



Thanks, Rocky. We'll be in Italy for 10 days... the trip of a lifetime for us. 2 days in Rome, 4 in Tuscany, 2 in Venice, and 2 in Verona. I believe the highlight will be a day trip to Cinque Terra - 5 towns built into the cliffs on the west coast. Look it up on google. I can hardly wait!!!


----------



## joeswine (May 10, 2013)

*Italy*

JUST,RETURNED FROM NEW MEXICO,NO AMARONE HERE BUT SOME REALLY GOOD TEQUILA,WOULD LOVE TO DO A ITALIAN WINE TRAIL TOUR IN THE NEAR FUTURE,YOUR A LUCKY MAN,,,,,,


----------



## Pumpkinman (May 11, 2013)

Robie, 
If you have time while in Tuscany, friends if mine own a winery/vineyard/bed and breakfast in Radda in Chianti called fattoria il Poggerino. 
Thier names are Stefano and Benedetta. The area is incredible, beautiful is an understatement! their wine is amazing, they even press their own olive oil.
Well worth the trip.


----------



## tucson (May 11, 2013)

Joe, what part of New Mexico, I lived in most of the state at one time or another.


----------



## joeswine (May 12, 2013)

*Tucson*

Last year, we did visit to Albuquerque, Santa Fe, AND sky city. Like most vacations , once you get started , it is time to leave. Friends of ours wanted to go see New Mexico this year and so we said yes. We would go also . He works for the Hilton as a manager and gets outstanding room rates so there was no question. 


We flew from Newark to Dallas, Dallas to Albuquerque picked up the car in Albuquerque and drove 13 miles north of Santa Fe to a place called* Buffalo thunder*, that is? That was our point of destination, from there we went to Taos, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, and sky city. It was wonderful week in review for me in review, to take in the sights that I have already seen, this time detail, would like to see other pueblos, but did not have the time, next time I am going to make the time and expense of going to Chaco Canyon, the flights were horrendous. Do not use American Airlines at any cost. There were disrespectful and time delayed but that is another story................... yours , JP N


----------



## tucson (May 12, 2013)

Chaco Canyon is amazing, can be hot and dry so go prepared. Also the train from Chama, New Mexico to Antionio is well worth the trip, but our next trai. Ride we will go from Chama to the half way house and ride the bus back to Chama. From the half way house to Antionio is flat and not as scenic. Pay the extra and get the rear coach car, big comfy seats and free sodas and snacks - well worth it.


----------



## ibglowin (May 13, 2013)

Glad to hear you had a good trip Joe! Sorry the timing didn't work out to get together this time, hopefully on another trip out this way! Which did you prefer. Red or Green? LOL. Did you happen to stop at Black Mesa Winery on the way to Taos? Excellent wines with grapes grown from here in NM. Next time you come out this way may I suggest you give Southwest Airlines a try! They are the best in the business these days. Flights are on time, great prices and two bags checked per person for FREE! You would have to fly out of Newark, NJ. They have a one stop, change planes at Chicago Midway and then direct into ABQ. The fare is currently showing as low as $535 RT.


----------



## joeswine (May 13, 2013)

*Chaco Canyon*

Thanks, we will do Chaco Canyon probably the next time we go to Sedona ,how far is it from there? Thanks for your reply. Y


----------



## tucson (May 13, 2013)

To get to Sedona go,to Pheonix and its a short drive up 17. Southwest Airlines is the only way to go. I travel every week and when I go to Napa a case of wine is checked free and considered my free second luggage. The winery's will put it a box made for airlines, I've don't this 6 to7 times and never broken a bottle.


----------



## ibglowin (May 14, 2013)

I have lived here for 28 years and never been to Chaco. It is just not on the way to anywhere. Its hard to get to, via rough washboard road. Its hot so you have to go early. I have been to Sedona on several occasions. Sedona is like dying and going to heaven. Breathtaking beauty all around you. Paved roads, hotels, B&B's, places to eat, Slide Rock Canyon (must see place to play in the water). Flagstaff is only 90 miles North so you could combine a trip to the Grand Canyon and Sedona. Southwest has a ton of flights in and out of Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix. Chaco is flat out amazing from a scientific aspect. How they figured out all the angles and coordinates for the solstices without any tools. PBS did an hour long documentary in 2003 that was narrated by Robert Redford. Every now and then they will show it on your local PBS station. Its almost out of print on DVD but you can still find it online from a few sellers, even Amazon. The DVD is not cheap ($30) but it allows you to see the breathtaking beauty and amazement of Chaco without the long drive to get there. Lots of people seem to still make wrong turns today. There is nothing out there but Chaco, no close hotels, restaurants, food, gas, water. Very primitive to say the least. The DVD also has excellent aerial (helicopter) shots that show just how long and straight the lines are that connect even mesa to mesa. That aerial view is very important to fully understanding and grasping Chaco in my opinion. Not saying its not worth seeing, its just a "real hike" as they say!


----------



## joeswine (May 15, 2013)

*chaco canyon*

thanks I think the dvd will do for now,and yes I have been to Sedona 4 times each time I have wanted to move their it is a very special place ,on this earth.................jp


----------

