# Is it possible to make a sweet wine without pottasium sorbate?



## blabablab (Apr 6, 2016)

Hello All,
I have been making wine for just over a Year, and I have been doing fine, but I am wanting to age some of my wine without the side effect tastes that potassium sorbate will add after a few years. Is there any way to not add potassium sorbate and have a sweet wine, or does it have to stay dry? 

Thanks!


----------



## sour_grapes (Apr 6, 2016)

Well, one approach that the home winemaker can follow is to use a non-fermentable sweetener.


----------



## Floandgary (Apr 6, 2016)

And what are those "side effect tastes" you mentioned? Not that my taste buds are Sommelier rated, but I've done many with and without K-Sorbate and have perceived no noticeable differences. Could be any of a number of things you're sensing. For what it's worth, I ferment to dry, stabilize (with Sorbate), then back sweeten if necessary


----------



## dcbrown73 (Apr 6, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Well, one approach that the home winemaker can follow is to use a non-fermentable sweetener.



Sweet and Low?


----------



## Runningwolf (Apr 6, 2016)

After about 12 months Sorbate taste does come out. Some people are very sensitive to it and taste it even sooner. I do not detect it but I know several people that do.


----------



## heatherd (Apr 6, 2016)

I think the non-fermentable sugars will have more of a taste than sorbate.

I ferment to dry and add sorbate only when back-sweetening.


----------



## BernardSmith (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi Blabablab and welcome. 

You could look for a yeast with very low tolerance for alcohol and step feed the must so that you will have more sugar than the yeast can ferment. The wine MAY BE naturally stable although I would think that over time there may be enough hardier yeast cells in that wine that could reproduce and so will ferment that sugar out. If that was a concern you could look into a small UV light pasteurization unit but I don't know how good the smaller units are OR you might use sterile -sized filters to remove all remaining yeast cells. But for that your wine would need to be absolutely clear if you are not to clog the filter.


----------



## blabablab (Apr 7, 2016)

Thanks for the replies everyone! 

I am referring to the pineapple/celery aroma that comes out after a few years. I am planning on aging for about 4 years as a standard, but also wanting to do a few up to 20(partly for an experiment, and a few for my soon to be born son, as part of a 21st birthday present  ) 

Has anyone used non-fermenting sweeteners, and if so, is there a noticeable difference between that and cane or corn sugar? 

Also, BernardSmith, what yeast would you recommend for a low alcohol tolerance that would work good for fruit wines? I have been using Cote des blanc as it has yielded the best fruit flavors from my experiments. 

I would rather stay away from filters that are fine enough to remove the yeast since I have heard they can remove some of the flavors. 

Does anyone know how industrial winemakers do this, or do they not make sweet wine without adding K-sorbate?


----------



## sour_grapes (Apr 7, 2016)

blabablab said:


> Does anyone know how industrial winemakers do this, or do they not make sweet wine without adding K-sorbate?



No expert here, but my understanding is that they sterile-filter, that is, they filter the wine with a filter fine enough to screen out yeast.

These threads were informative regarding non-fermentable sweeteners:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34834

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21627


----------



## cpfan (Apr 7, 2016)

You could ferment to dry, bottle, age, and then sweeten prior to serving. Then you would not need sorbate, and would not be exposed to the possibility of fermentation in bottle.

Steve


----------



## blabablab (Apr 7, 2016)

Ok, out of curiosity, aren't campden tablets supposed to kill wild yeast, so would campden tablets before bottling be enough to kill the remaining yeast? I know they cannot stop a fermentation, but if it has stopped and you add sugar and campden tablets, is it likely to start back up? 

Also, I don't believe campden tablets ever create any side effect tastes, but please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## RevA (Apr 7, 2016)

Kmeta doesn't kill all the yeast, it slows down fermentation and yes keeps wild yeast at bay. I doubt you would be able to stabilise with it. Non-fermentable sugars work, you just have to find something that you like the taste of. I use xylitol as well as brewcrafts wine sweetner


----------



## blabablab (Apr 7, 2016)

Ok, good to know. 

I have a few questions about Xylitol:
Has anyone used Xylitol before? 
Is there enough of it added typically to create bowel issues in sensitive people? 
Is it discernible from regular sugar? 
Will it have any effects on a wine that is aged for a long while?


----------



## GreginND (Apr 7, 2016)

There is a winery in Montana using non-fermentable sweeteners this year with good success (Tongue River Winer). There are now some approved by the TTB for commercial use. He is using various combinations of Erythritol, Stevia and Monksfruit.

I believe these are available from Stevia.com.

Trade names:

Erysweet+ - blend of erythritol and stevia extract.
Monksweet+ - blend of erythritol, monk fruit extract and stevia extract

I have tasted some of the wines using these and they are pretty darn good alternatives to sugar.


----------



## blabablab (Apr 7, 2016)

Thanks for the reply! 

So i see it on amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Truvia-Natural-Sweetener-Baking-Blend/dp/B00935AGUM/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?srs=2602761011&ie=UTF8&qid=1460045389&sr=8-1&keywords=Truvia+pound

Does this look correct? This is what following the buy stevia link took me to on stevia.com

Also, would you recommend this over Xylitol. Xylitol does seem alot cheeper.... Thanks!


----------



## heatherd (Apr 7, 2016)

blabablab said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> So i see it on amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Truvia-Natural-Sweetener-Baking-Blend/dp/B00935AGUM/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?srs=2602761011&ie=UTF8&qid=1460045389&sr=8-1&keywords=Truvia+pound
> 
> ...



My inclination would be to use the natural option. 

Having tasted stevia, I can tell you it tastes different in coffee than refined or cane sugar. 

It might be worth getting a packet or two for a bench test before committing to pounds of a non-fermentable sweetener in gallons of wine. I would suggest tasting wine with sorbate and wine with stevia to be sure you like one more than the other on a small scale.

I still maintain that you can do this but the non-fermentables have a more pronounced taste than sorbate in a sweet wine.

Most of the time, folks are using this in cider to backsweeten while not destroying yeast. Or they are using these because someone wants a reduced calorie wine for diabetic purposes.


----------



## blabablab (Apr 7, 2016)

Well, my goal in short is to create a sweet wine that can be aged without getting the taste of sorbate after it has broken down into ethyl sorbate. I can't even tell the difference with potassium sorbate in a wine less than a year old. The only reason I don't want to use it is because of the very long term taste that comes out. 

In short, what would everyone suggest to make a sweet wine that will age well?


----------



## Floandgary (Apr 7, 2016)

cpfan said:


> You could ferment to dry, bottle, age, and then sweeten prior to serving. Then you would not need sorbate, and would not be exposed to the possibility of fermentation in bottle.
> 
> Steve



Steve's idea seems to be the least invasive and easiest to do to accomplish your goal. Given enough time (which it appears you intend to do) every molecule of whatever is included in the batch will leave it's mark. 20 yrs is a LONG time. Would have to think that there are very few people who regularly drink wine much more than even 10 years old AND containing some of the wonders of modern chemistry. Besides,,, what's to say that your son will even like a sweet wine??? :< I'd believe that a 20 yr old bottle of anything made by my Dad would be pretty cool


----------



## cpfan (Apr 7, 2016)

blabablab said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> So i see it on amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Truvia-Natural-Sweetener-Baking-Blend/dp/B00935AGUM/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?srs=2602761011&ie=UTF8&qid=1460045389&sr=8-1&keywords=Truvia+pound
> 
> Does this look correct? This is what following the buy stevia link took me to on stevia.com



Doesn't look right to me. That product is Truvia mixed with sugar. Thus sorbate will probably be required.

Steve


----------



## GreginND (Apr 7, 2016)

I can't find any information on the "natural flavors" that are added to the Truvia baking product. There may be things there that could cloud your wine. 

Here is a link to the company that makes and sells the blends for commercial uses and for wineries. Under their products link you can find all kinds of different sweetener options. Tell them you want to experiment with using it in wine and they may send you some free samples. Can't hurt to ask.

http://www.stevivaingredients.com


----------



## PhilDarby (Apr 7, 2016)

One time I used to back sweeten using aspartame, which at the time I thought gave a nice taste, I wont use it anymore because it has been linked to ill health in some people reportedly.

I then resolved myself to using sorbate and drinking in the short term.

There is wines you can make which are sweet and keep well, port or sherry type wines, which also, don't need sorbate.


----------



## TonyR (Apr 7, 2016)

Or learn to drink dry wine


----------



## RevA (Apr 8, 2016)

blabablab said:


> Ok, good to know.
> 
> I have a few questions about Xylitol:
> Has anyone used Xylitol before?
> ...


Usually you don't add enough Xylitol to be an issue, if you add enough to be an issue I think you would be making a syrup, rather than a wine IMO...


----------

