# Cold soak using dry ice



## Ajmassa (Sep 14, 2020)

Anyone know if attempting a cold soak using dry ice is realistic? Never heard of anyone doing this before (only for transport), however maybe that’s for a good reason. 

~30gal of must. Figured I’d separate into 5gal buckets. Building a little makeshift insulated box, dumping AC into it with flex duct maybe too. I read dry ice wrapped in newspaper can last multiple days in a Yeti cooler. Was thinking a 3 day soak.

Or would this require entirely too much ice to maintain temps?
And is all that co2 going to have any negative effects? (If anything I assume co2 only helps me here)

Other option is to try and finagle a deal with the liquor store owner up the street for a few days of refrigerator space. I’m trying to get the most out of my grapes this year. Doing a little sagneé likely. Frozen jugs later in the ferment. But I think a nice legit cold soak could be a huge benefit. Hard to get even a week of skins time otherwise.


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## Rice_Guy (Sep 14, 2020)

Dry Ice will absorb 270 BTU per pound. To say this another way twenty pounds of dry ice would generate as much cooling as a 5000 BTU air conditioner over one hour, ,,, however if you wanted to cool for a second hour you would want another twenty pounds of dry ice.

Conclusion dry ice is not as practical as a small air conditioner.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 14, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Dry Ice will absorb 270 BTU per pound. To say this another way twenty pounds of dry ice would generate as much cooling as a 5000 BTU air conditioner over one hour, ,,, however if you wanted to cool for a second hour you would want another twenty pounds of dry ice.
> 
> Conclusion dry ice is not as practical as a small air conditioner.


Thank you. I knew you’d have some insight for me regarding the specifics. But let me ask you another question.
Let’s say those 6 buckets were wrapped with insulation sleeves and resting within a little box made of 2” thick insulation boards on all sides. That 20lb 1hour 5000btu equivalent of dry ice could last a bit before another round of ice is needed.
In your professional opinion do you think I would be able to maintain at least 50° with additions every few hours located in a temp controlled ~69° basement? 

thinking the liquor store fridge might be my best bet


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## Rice_Guy (Sep 15, 2020)

* Dry Ice is concentrated CO2 you have a safety issue in the basement, ,,,this is used to humanely put hogs to sleep before they are converted into meat. The concept would be significantly safer done in the garage with the garage door cracked open, or outside.
* Dry Ice will turn from gas to liquid at -109F therefore it is excellent for keeping things frozen. It will have a tendency to pull heat/ release cold into the insulation box till it gets to minus 109. The energy from freezing is a heat sink (wall or barrier) so it will probably get to 32F when freezing on the bucket surface has started and then the mass would hang there. Did you have a temperature in mind?
* this is a fun project I would be likely to try, my approach would be to pull a metal shelf out to put the buckets on, remove the door from the fridge and then tape insulation to the front of the fridge to create the box ,,, OR cool everything in the walk-in fridge pull them home and place them in a cardboard box (weak insulation) which is enclosed by the 2” board on all sides. A small entry should be on the top so you can add dry ice if needed. The heat load for maintaining temp is minimal and most of the heat load will be in the initial cooling to freezing point.



Ajmassa said:


> Thank you. I knew you’d have some insight for me regarding the specifics. But let me ask you another question.
> Let’s say those 6 buckets were wrapped with insulation sleeves and resting within a little box made of 2” thick insulation boards on all sides. That 20lb 1hour 5000btu equivalent of dry ice could last a bit before another round of ice is needed.
> In your professional opinion do you think I would be able to maintain at least 50° with additions every few hours located in a temp controlled ~69° basement?
> 
> thinking the liquor store fridge might be my best bet


,,, the walk-in isn’t as much fun, ,,, what temp did you want to run?
to cool water from 82 to 32 is 50 BTU per pound therefore cooling five buckets is 12,500 BTU and it would take 46 pounds of dry ice to do the initial cooling and what outside air temp did you want to design for for maintaining temp? ought to ask how much per pound dry ice is where you are? Renting chest freezer with a temperature controller would be another neat way since the box shape is there.


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## Johnd (Sep 15, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Anyone know if attempting a cold soak using dry ice is realistic? Never heard of anyone doing this before (only for transport), however maybe that’s for a good reason.
> 
> ~30gal of must. Figured I’d separate into 5gal buckets. Building a little makeshift insulated box, dumping AC into it with flex duct maybe too. I read dry ice wrapped in newspaper can last multiple days in a Yeti cooler. Was thinking a 3 day soak.
> 
> ...



Short of the commercial walkins that we beg our way into, next best bet is probably a large chest freezer or fridge. Dedicated to the mission with an Inkbired temp controller, you should be able to maintain any temp you like, indefinitely.


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## Jay A (Sep 15, 2020)

AJ, I attempted this years ago when I first heard of cold soaking. Vendor wouldn't sell me dry ice until I came back with a pick up truck! Consider a well ventilated garage.

I have 2 vats that hold 15-20 lugs, but they are not insulated. I considered getting the exterior spray foamed & should have because the soak was very short lived. 

I think it got me a couple of extra days before innoculating? I'll check notes tonite. Didn't feel outcome changed much.

good luck


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> * this is a fun project I would be likely to try, my approach would be to pull a metal shelf out to put the buckets on, remove the door from the fridge and then tape insulation to the front of the fridge to create the box ,,, OR cool everything in the walk-in fridge pull them home and place them in a cardboard box (weak insulation) which is enclosed by the 2” board on all sides. A small entry should be on the top so you can add dry ice if needed. The heat load for maintaining temp is minimal and most of the heat load will be in the initial cooling to freezing point.
> 
> ,,, the walk-in isn’t as much fun, ,,, what temp did you want to run?
> to cool water from 82 to 32 is 50 BTU per pound therefore cooling five buckets is 12,500 BTU and it would take 46 pounds of dry ice to do the initial cooling and what outside air temp did you want to design for for maintaining temp? ought to ask how much per pound dry ice is where you are? Renting chest freezer with a temperature controller would be another neat way since the box shape is there.



My goal is not to freeze but only to maintain. At time of pickup the grapes will be cold, likely 32°-40°. I cover with a heavy duty moving blanket into the pickup truck bed lined with insulation boards on all sides for the 1 hour drive home. By the time grapes are crushed they’re likely sitting at about 50°-55°. 

That initial ‘heat load’ would be minimal since I’m shooting for <50°. Just cold enough to delay fermentation for extra maceration time. 

Locally I can get dry ice 25lbs for $50. 45lbs for $70. And I do have a 7cu.ft. chest freezer that could fit x2 6gal buckets unless I find a container appropriately sized to utilize more of that 7cu.ft. freezer. Then rotating vessels from the DIY dry ice box to the chest freezer to maintain <50° for a few days.
Just spitballing ideas here. I’ve got a few weeks to prepare


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

Jay A said:


> AJ, I attempted this years ago when I first heard of cold soaking. Vendor wouldn't sell me dry ice until I came back with a pick up truck! Consider a well ventilated garage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



few days better than no days! That’s substantially more volume than I’d be working with so I could imagine the amount of ice needed to chill those large vats in a non temp controlled garage was quit a bit. But even though you were spitting in the wind so to speak, you still managed to get a couple days. So somewhat successful attempt. Whether the wine benefitted or not is another story. 

I’m definitely going to attempt soaking this must, just not exactly sure how yet Nice of the vendor to not want you to pass out on your drive home lol. 

But how do you know if there was benefit or not? Did you make the same grapes previously to have comparison?


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Short of the commercial walkins that we beg our way into, next best bet is probably a large chest freezer or fridge. Dedicated to the mission with an Inkbired temp controller, you should be able to maintain any temp you like, indefinitely.



I do have a chest freezer I’ll likely utilize. Just can’t fit it all in there at the same time. Not dedicated to the mission unfortunately. But will certainly help the cause. Still playing around with different ideas right now. 

you know the deal. Running standard fermentation with no temp control I’m dry after 5-6 days of active fermentation if I’m lucky. normally crush on Saturday. Yeast on Sunday. Press on Saturday. love to get extra days of skins time. I sprung for Napa grapes (Rutherford Bench) and I want to make the best possible wine I can make.


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## Snafflebit (Sep 15, 2020)

Is your must too warm because of fermentation or because you are keeping it in a warm location?

I am cooling 20 gal of must by putting 1 frozen milk jug in it per day. This drops the temp from 72F down to 66F.
My must is inside a conditioned space. This is not a perfect system but it is simple


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## porkchopmessiah (Sep 15, 2020)

For what it's worth, my 54 liter demijohns fit in my fridge with the shelves removed....got last springs merlot blend in there trying to get all the neutralized Crystal's from adding potassium bicarbonate to drop out


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

Snafflebit said:


> Is your must too warm because of fermentation or because you are keeping it in a warm location?
> 
> I am cooling 20 gal of must by putting 1 frozen milk jug in it per day. This drops the temp from 72F down to 66F.
> My must is inside a conditioned space. This is not a perfect system but it is simple


I haven’t attempted to cool down active fermentation yet. I got nervous the jug would break open. But I do plan on going thru with it this time. And your data of how 1 jug alters 20gal is extremely helpful. hoping this technique could gain a day or 2. 

I was specifically talking about cold soaking before fermentation though. To delay as many days as I could. 3-5 preferably. Figured to do this I need to keep it around 50°. My ultimate goal is 2 weeks from crush till press.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

porkchopmessiah said:


> For what it's worth, my 54 liter demijohns fit in my fridge with the shelves removed....got last springs merlot blend in there trying to get all the neutralized Crystal's from adding potassium bicarbonate to drop out


Surprised that fit! No extra fridge over here tho. When I cold stabilize I rack to carboys and stick in the shed for a few weeks. I made insulation jackets for them and each go in a milk crate.

However keeping 30gal of must chilled for an extended period is new territory for me.
I have some Tupperware containers that I could modify and fit maybe all the must into the freezer. might work.

Maybe I’m putting too much emphasis on skins time idk. But I do know the pros get more than a week and I’m gonna give it the ol college try.


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## Rice_Guy (Sep 15, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> However keeping 30gal of must chilled for an extended period is new territory for me.
> I have some Tupperware containers that I could modify and fit maybe all the must into the freezer. might work.


you have other shapes that get away from round which is inefficient, cubitainer as from the camping store, 30 gallon PE drums, rectangular poly totes, a fiber drum with a simple polyethylene liner, and even plywood box with a polyethylene liner.


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## KCCam (Sep 15, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> It will have a tendency to pull heat/ release cold into the insulation box till it gets to minus 109.


@Rice_Guy has a lot of excellent points in his post. Personally, I believe the biggest issue is temperature *control.* As he says, as long as there is solid CO2, it will be "trying" to bring everything around it down to its temperature, which will be something less than -109°F. If you don't have some way to control it, manually or otherwise, your must will eventually freeze, assuming you have a large enough quantity of dry ice, and your insulation is good enough.

There are 2 separate problems here. The first is dropping your must to the desired temperature, the second is keeping it there.

As already mentioned, dry ice has a given heat capacity at a given temperature, meaning that it will take a specific amount of energy to transform a pound of dry ice from its initial temperature into a gas, at say 50°F. That happens in 3 stages, which happen somewhat simultaneously: warm the solid from its starting temperature to -109°F, sublime ("evaporate") the solid into a gas, at -109°F, then warm the gas to 50°F. It depends on the initial temperature of the dry ice, but 270 BTU per pound sounds right. As Rice_Guy said, assuming your must has the same heat capacity as water, cooling 30 gallons by 50°F would take about 12,500 BTU, or about 46 lbs of dry ice. To go from 55°F to 50°F would be 1/10 of that, or 4.6 lbs. Keep in mind it takes time, because this mode of heat transfer is relatively inefficient.
The second problem is keeping the temperature constant. The cooling required will be related to the mass of your must, the R-rating of your insulation, the temperature difference between the inside and the outside of the insulated box. and how well sealed the box is (vapour barrier). Two methods of control you have that come to mind are: adding and removing the dry ice to cycle the temperature around 50°F (or adding controlled amounts at proper time intervals), and varying the amount of insulation around the dry ice within your box. Preferably you have a remote temperature sensor to monitor your must without having to open the box. Too much insulation around the dry ice, and your must gets warmer, too little, and your must gets colder.


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## KCCam (Sep 15, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> * Dry Ice is concentrated CO2 you have a safety issue in the basement, ,,,this is used to humanely put hogs to sleep before they are converted into meat.


Hahaha, I thought you said "to humanely put *dogs *to sleep before..."   I mean, I figured it was just tongue-in-cheek, but without the obligatory "LOL" or winky face, I was starting to wonder... Glad I read that again!


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## Jay A (Sep 15, 2020)

My Grape of choice is Lanza Sangiovese. Always used enzymes, my goal was to get some extra color out of the skins. I saw no difference in color or taste for that matter. Now I add some decent Alicante to add color. 

The grapes froze on contact with dry ice, obviously not the whole vat, large basketball sized chunks. I. did get concerned about the dry ice cracking plastic vat & wasting all that must. Fortunately that didn't happen. The 5 gallon buckets in a large cooler is a good plan.

I've used frozen plastic juice bottles as ice bombs in the past. Never able to get temps down, only maintain. This year I'm gonna try & get creative with a chiller. 

In addition to my sangiovese,, last year I sprung for 5 cases of $ Washington Cabernet Sauvingon. It was my 1st experience with a "Brute" container due to small volume. Much like yourself a week after crushing I'm usually pressing. I followed the same protocols as always, the cab took 2 weeks to get down to pressing gravity. Temp cruised along @ 76* rock steady. I'm pretty sure my large vats contribute to the higher temps generated while fermenting. Hope this helps.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

@Jay A I’m sure some grapes only have limited color to extract no matter the amount enzymes or time on skins. Sangiovese probably a tough one to do successfully. When I did a sangio I was surprised to see how much lighter it was compared to others. Also had a extra light cab in ‘18.
Your cab goin 14 days is awesome though. You remember what yeast was used? I’ve been using Avante. Probably the one and only negative is how fast it runs dry. How’s that cab. Tasting a year later?


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## Ajmassa (Sep 15, 2020)

@KCCam and @Rice_Guy - lots of useful information said above and it’s much appreciated. I’ve got a good bit to contemplate here
I’m looking at 3 options at this point. 

1. Dry ice additions to Buckets of must stored in an insulation chamber
2. Modify chest freezer to hold 30gal of must
3. Rent some walk-in fridge space at a local business

I’m not overly concerned with temp fluctuations tbh. As long as I can maintain >55° I don’t think it will make a difference. Remember the ultimate goal is just to buy some time. Even if it froze I’d be cool with that because the thawing time would give me the cold soak I’m looking for as well.


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## CDrew (Sep 15, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> @Jay A I’m sure some grapes only have limited color to extract no matter the amount enzymes or time on skins. Sangiovese probably a tough one to do successfully. When I did a sangio I was surprised to see how much lighter it was compared to others. Also had a extra light cab in ‘18.
> Your cab goin 14 days is awesome though. You remember what yeast was used? I’ve been using Avante. Probably the one and only negative is how fast it runs dry. How’s that cab. Tasting a year later?




Good commentary! Personal experience-started 300 pounds of Sangiovese on Sunday, parallel to 350 pounds of Syrah. Enzymes in both. The syrah is like ink. THe Sangio at first was just lightly pink. It's coming around though after 2 days of fermentation. It still won't be a dark wine. But in future years, I think the Sangio might make a nice Rosé.

Regarding Avante speed-Pitched Sunday night, Cap Monday morning. Between Pitching and Tuesday morning (today) it's already dropped from 25 to 15 Brix. I'm thinking press by Friday. It moves so fast, that I wanted to do feeding #2 at 18 brix, but it was already 15 brix when I measured at 0630 today. Pretty cool.

Avante is a great workhorse yeast. I'm still waiting to find a problem with it, but so far, it's a no-brainer.


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## Jay A (Sep 15, 2020)

Ajay, Yeast was Avante on both Sangio & Cab. Very pleased with aroma & flavor, I'll be using again this year. Only difference, MLB was co-innoculated in Sangio. The cab came in later in season & MLB inventory was scarce so by the time I sourced, it was done sequentially. 

I doubt it had any effect on fermentation duration. I think it was all about temperature. Cab was crushed end of October with cooler ambient temps in my shop, & capacity was much less than Sangio.

Very impressed with Washington fruit. Didn't have to adjust a thing. Still sitting on it, at last racking it was tasting great.

This was my 1st Avante ferment. Vigorous with the Sangio. Slow & steady with cab. In years prior I was using 4x4. I can say the washington cab is fruit forward. Never did it with 4x4 so who knows if its fruit or yeast? I'm thinking fruit, the Sangio was similar to prior years with 4x4 with exception to it smell. The avante fermented sangio has a very fruity smell but not too much in taste.


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## BI81 (Sep 16, 2020)

Snafflebit said:


> Is your must too warm because of fermentation or because you are keeping it in a warm location?
> 
> I am cooling 20 gal of must by putting 1 frozen milk jug in it per day. This drops the temp from 72F down to 66F.
> My must is inside a conditioned space. This is not a perfect system but it is simple


I’m currently in the same situation, ended up with some last minute unexpected Pinot and only had Avante on hand, it’s a beast and after 24 hours spiked to 88F, so I’ve been rotating frozen water jugs for an hour or so to get the must temp down to the mid 70’s, pull them out and do a punchdown, and continue the cycle. Seems to have slowed a bit, but Avante is a freight train that’s hard to stop. As @Ajmassa said few days better than no days!!


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## BI81 (Sep 16, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Good commentary! Personal experience-started 300 pounds of Sangiovese on Sunday, parallel to 350 pounds of Syrah. Enzymes in both. The syrah is like ink. THe Sangio at first was just lightly pink. It's coming around though after 2 days of fermentation. It still won't be a dark wine. But in future years, I think the Sangio might make a nice Rosé.
> 
> Regarding Avante speed-Pitched Sunday night, Cap Monday morning. Between Pitching and Tuesday morning (today) it's already dropped from 25 to 15 Brix. I'm thinking press by Friday. It moves so fast, that I wanted to do feeding #2 at 18 brix, but it was already 15 brix when I measured at 0630 today. Pretty cool.
> 
> Avante is a great workhorse yeast. I'm still waiting to find a problem with it, but so far, it's a no-brainer.


Avante is a beast for sure, I inoculated Sunday at 2pm at 23.5Brix, I’m down to 5Brix at 6pm Tuesday!! And that’s with frozen ice jugs keeping the temp down.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 16, 2020)

BI81 said:


> I’m currently in the same situation, ended up with some last minute unexpected Pinot and only had Avante on hand, it’s a beast and after 24 hours spiked to 88F, so I’ve been rotating frozen water jugs for an hour or so to get the must temp down to the mid 70’s, pull them out and do a punchdown, and continue the cycle. Seems to have slowed a bit, but Avante is a freight train that’s hard to stop. As @Ajmassa said few days better than no days!!


That spike to 88° is actually a good thing as far as I know. I’m not positive of this, still learning new aspects all the time so maybe someone could verify. But running hot like that in the first half of fermentation helps pull in extra ‘goodness’ out of those grapes. I forget it it’s color or body or what. But that high heat locks it in, whatever ‘it’ is. 
So in a perfect world for a big red it spikes early followed by slow & steady drawn out finish. —-difficult to achieve for hobbyists but we do our best.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 16, 2020)

Goin for the dry ice chamber. Not a finished product by any means. Likely will double up the sides for 3”. This is 1-1/2” board. Made it big enough to fit a layer of spray insulation somehow and also keep some ice inside around the buckets as well as adding to the must.
Will iron out the particulars as I go I’m thinking. Semi-confident I’ll be able to keep the must cold enough for a few days.
(totally looks like a dead body stored in my basement )


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## Ajmassa (Sep 16, 2020)

Also, not exactly on topic but I salvaged an old coat rack from an elementary school I was working at. Cleaned it up and hung overhead as a drying rack over the sink. Been collecting dust for 6 months and finally got around to tweaking it up to install. Should did it sooner. I’m loving it.


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## stickman (Sep 17, 2020)

Track lights, storage rack, peg board and stainless sink........way better than my plastic laundry tub and old school lead contaminated brass faucet.


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## BI81 (Sep 17, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> That spike to 88° is actually a good thing as far as I know. I’m not positive of this, still learning new aspects all the time so maybe someone could verify. But running hot like that in the first half of fermentation helps pull in extra ‘goodness’ out of those grapes. I forget it it’s color or body or what. But that high heat locks it in, whatever ‘it’ is.
> So in a perfect world for a big red it spikes early followed by slow & steady drawn out finish. —-difficult to achieve for hobbyists but we do our best.


Yes sir, that spike can help with phenolic extraction, but also volatilizes the esters which can lose some aromatics, it all boils down to what style you’re going for. 

I like your effort for temp control, makes me feel less crazy with the cold room I’m building in the garage of our rental house to hopefully accomplish the same goal. The pursuit is almost as fun as achieving the results!!


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## Jay A (Sep 17, 2020)

Nice set up! I like that bottle washer rig. 

If you go ahead with dry ice be mindful of ventilation, especially if you share floor space with natural gas heating equipment.


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## Chuck E (Sep 17, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> I do have a chest freezer I’ll likely utilize. Just can’t fit it all in there at the same time. Not dedicated to the mission unfortunately. But will certainly help the cause. Still playing around with different ideas right now.
> 
> you know the deal. Running standard fermentation with no temp control I’m dry after 5-6 days of active fermentation if I’m lucky. normally crush on Saturday. Yeast on Sunday. Press on Saturday. love to get extra days of skins time. I sprung for Napa grapes (Rutherford Bench) and I want to make the best possible wine I can make.



I have cats, so I have a lot of empty "kitty litter" buckets. They are square-ish and fit/stack much better in the freezer or refrigerator. Since litter is a form of Bentonite, I don't worry about any residue left after washing. This trick has allowed me to make wine on my time schedule. They are smaller than 5 gallons though.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 17, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> I have cats, so I have a lot of empty "kitty litter" buckets. They are square-ish and fit/stack much better in the freezer or refrigerator. Since litter is a form of Bentonite, I don't worry about any residue left after washing. This trick has allowed me to make wine on my time schedule. They are smaller than 5 gallons though.


thats very convenient. Making smaller volumes allows for so much more control so much easier. Unfortunately between my family, friends, and myself, 30 bottles is gone in a flash. When I wanted to bump up my volume I found my comfort zone around 20gal batches. Not as convenient for these things but still doable.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 17, 2020)

Jay A said:


> Nice set up! I like that bottle washer rig.
> If you go ahead with dry ice be mindful of ventilation, especially if you share floor space with natural gas heating equipment.


Stole the idea off another WMT member’s setup (@mainshipfred ) to be able to drop in the washer or remove easily.
Duly noted On the ventilation. I’ve got a window few ft away. Hoping a couple strategically placed fans will do the trick. And a freezer in the room to store ice. Just gotta estimate how much I’ll need.



BI81 said:


> Yes sir, that spike can help with phenolic extraction, but also volatilizes the esters which can lose some aromatics, it all boils down to what style you’re going for.
> 
> I like your effort for temp control, makes me feel less crazy with the cold room I’m building in the garage of our rental house to hopefully accomplish the same goal. The pursuit is almost as fun as achieving the results!!


thanks for clarifying. The fermentation temp battle to balance color & bouquet.
Couldn’t agree more tho. Def thought to myself - ‘am I being ridiculous with this Cold soak idea’? But yea man the prep and trying new techniques to make better wine or improve your setup is a huge part of the fun for
Me. About the journey just as much the destination as they say.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

Dry ice Cold box cold soak is underway! So far seems to be working too.

box holds x6 6gal pails. I bought 100lbs of dry ice blocks. Wrapped them in brown flooring paper and stored in a heavy duty cooler. Also Lined the box with some moving blankets. She’s not fancy but I think it’ll work. Should have plenty of ice for 3 or 4 days.

I’ve got a few block pieces placed between the buckets. And I crushed some up to add directly into the must last night after I added enzymes. Maintaining high 30’s° - low 40’s°
Starting must temp was high 50’s°
Ambient room temp is about 67°


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## Jay A (Oct 27, 2020)

Looks awesome, keep us updated.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

Jay A said:


> Looks awesome, keep us updated.


I will. Working great. Dry ice is no joke. Some low areas in the buckets close to the blocks are freezing up. Temp is easily maintaining 35°-45°

I added another block today and some crushed pieces into the must. Will be plenty. Likely won’t have to do any additions tomorrow.The ice will melt before I’ll need it. Any extra will help our Halloween decor out front on the 31st!

maybe I’ll add some thurs morning and that’s it. That’ll take me into the weekend before inoculating. Moving blankets and paper stuffed in hollow spots made a big difference.
I read about issues from skins being burnt by the dry ice tho. Need to do more reading to see what the actual deal is. Picture is 24hours soaking


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## Jay A (Oct 28, 2020)

Great temps, you may have to crank up the heat to wake it up!


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## VinesnBines (Oct 28, 2020)

A lot of commercial wineries use dry ice to cool grapes. 


http://willamettewines.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Winemaking-Deconstructed-2012.pdf






__





Domaine Serene - Winemaking 2016







www.domaineserene.com


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## Ajmassa (Oct 28, 2020)

VinesnBines said:


> A lot of commercial wineries use dry ice to cool grapes.
> 
> 
> http://willamettewines.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Winemaking-Deconstructed-2012.pdf
> ...


Thanks for sharing that. The most detailed report of commercial winemaking I’ve ever seen. And yeah, it does seem to be fairly common practice.

my comment was based on 1 persons opinion in 1 conversation I found. He said he didn’t like skins to get frostbite because of how it tastes after. And uses actual gueacamole bowls filled with ice on top to remove headspace! If nothing else it’s an interesting convo. I’ve no concern over the frostbite aspect. 








Cold Soak: Dry Ice vs. CO2


I’ll be working with an open top fermenter, e.g., T-bin, and am wondering what the difference would be in effectiveness between the use of dry ice for a cold soak, pre-ferment, versus blanketing with CO2. I’ll be covering the tank with construction plastic and securing that in place with bungie...




www.wineberserkers.com


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## Ajmassa (Oct 28, 2020)

Going into this I figured there was a high probability could be a giant hassle and not worth it. Theory is always different than reality.

Assembling the box (with free material) and figuring makeshift insulation in real time, locating and purchasing the ice (Never used it before ever)- and all the fumbling & curveballs of any 1st attempt - I had my doubts. But it wasn’t bad at all. 2nd time will be a breeze. 

And this is the first time I’ve had control over a ferment. Normally as soon as I crush- the clock starts. Under the gun with about a 2 day window to handle everything needed.

Aside from extraction benefits— I’m putting the grapes on MY schedule. Not theirs. And that in & of itself is priceless imo.

These commercial guys are often put on a pedastal- but in reality I think homewinemakers need to be way more crafty with the deck stacked against us. Most don’t know the struggle. They got it made with all the fancy equipment & staff & funds. Spoiled. put them in our shoes with identical resources, funds, full time jobs, etc etc - I’m willing to bet we can match them punch for punch. Until they eventually stop while we keep goin year after year. Plus it’s their job. We do it for the love of the game. So in summary- WE are the truer more pure winemakers. 
This concludes my TED talk. Thank u.


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## VinesnBines (Oct 28, 2020)

I'm following this closely because like you say I have a day job; add to that my homeplace/farm/vineyard is 340 miles from my other house soo...once I get a crop(s) (hopefully next fall) the grapes are going to have to meet my schedule. I have several varieties so I'll need to utilize freezers, ice, dry ice....whatever tricks I have available to fit harvest/fermentation/day job to my schedule.


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## 4score (Oct 29, 2020)

BI81 said:


> Avante is a beast for sure, I inoculated Sunday at 2pm at 23.5Brix, I’m down to 5Brix at 6pm Tuesday!! And that’s with frozen ice jugs keeping the temp down.


A wine buddy was using Avante on my recommendation. I believe it was Cab Franc that he was trying to make into a port. When the Brix hit his desired level he added his brandy and the Avante said, "What's this? I'm can climb right over it!". He literally could NOT stop the Avante fermentation train!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 31, 2020)

Ending the cold soak today. Monday night to Saturday. 

I’ve been opening the box once a day in the afternoon to mix it up and add some more ice. Before mixing bottoms of the pails were always 20° colder than the tops and clumping up. I did end up adding some FT Rouge to the must. A 1/4 dose on thurs. and another 1/4 dose on Friday. And each day removing MOG as I mixed. (By far the most time consuming part of all this) Vast majority of the leaves and little stem pieces pulled throughout the week (and 1 stinkbug), so feeling good about having a super clean must. 



Also the ice was gone earlier than anticipated and I wasn’t ready to start— picked up another box of ice Thursday. Almost 5 days soaking now. It’s time. Going to transfer into the fermentor today and let it warm up. I never added any so2. Not sure when yeast should be added tho. Ambient room temp is 66°. So maybe at mid 50’s° inoculate?

By the time this warms up and gets goin, along with the cooler temps here I will easily hit my 10 day ‘crush to press’ target and land closer to 2 weeks I hope.


Snapping the lids tight Pushed a lot of co2 into must, and upon opening the 1st time had a mini heart attack appearing as if it started fermenting! Lol


We good though.





1 casualty was my plastic spoon. Sucker snapped in half. And my scale put on IR. dead battery. Had to break out the old OHAUS balance scale I used to use but kept sorta for decor. 

nice and cool. Throwing caution to the wind and fermenting in the basement. I swear to god if I get more fruit flies I will lose my sh*t. 
All in all the extended cold soak was pretty fun and I will surely do it again.


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## CDrew (Oct 31, 2020)

Que the fruit flies.....


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## sour_grapes (Oct 31, 2020)

Looking good, Andrew!



Ajmassa said:


> View attachment 67672
> 
> Had to break out the old OHAUS balance scale I used to use but kept sorta for decor.



Remind me: The scale was salvaged from St. Huberts? Or was it Little Flower? Or elsewhere? (Lots of family members are alumnae of the 2 schools mentioned.)


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## Ajmassa (Oct 31, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Looking good, Andrew!
> 
> 
> 
> Remind me: The scale was salvaged from St. Huberts? Or was it Little Flower? Or elsewhere? (Lots of family members are alumnae of the 2 schools mentioned.)



St Huberts! Great memory! Yeah once I got the digital that balance scale became a decoration. I didn’t wanna get rid of it tho because .....I don’t know. I just liked it. No real reason. I thought it was cool. Maybe for some people in the science/chemistry fields it may not be very cool, but I think it’s a fun throwback. I remember my post about the scale turned into quite a lengthy and interesting discussion.

Still works great!


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## sour_grapes (Oct 31, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Maybe for some people in the science/chemistry fields it may not be very cool,



I think people in those fields are VERY LIKELY to think it is cool! I know I do!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 31, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I think people in those fields are VERY LIKELY to think it is cool! I know I do!


And now that discussion is coming back to me. Was:
‘Practicality’ vs the ‘coolness factor’


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## sour_grapes (Oct 31, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> And now that discussion is coming back to me. Was:
> ‘Practicality’ vs the ‘coolness factor’



Yeah, and I probably came down on the practicality side, despite my comments here!


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

Busy Saturday forced me to stretch the cold box another day. Friends stopped by dressed as ‘Guns ‘n Rosé’ for Halloween (which was so awesome btw) and we got to drinkin. Luckily the box held temps great. Last ice addition was Friday afternoon. By Sunday afternoon the buckets ranged from 43° at the surface to low 20’s° at the bottoms. 

Transferred over 30gal of must into a 44gal fermentor. 45° as of this morning. Stress free cold soak is over. It’s like the first day of work after coming home from a vacation. 
Wasn’t sure when to inoculate, or if I should dose some so2 first to ensure no native yeast takes it. Quick Ph test at crush was 3.56. This morning it read 3.80. Calibrated and checked again. 3.80
Wasn’t expecting that. Calibrated & Checked with my older meter —3.6. Ugh. Why did I do that?!

Checked other wines I know the ph of against my good meter— it read correctly. So I guess 3.8 is correct. Just seems like a big jump from before the cold soak. Would extra cold temps mess with the ph readings?

Then I had to leave for work. I dosed 30ppm so2 because I guess I gotta do a tartaric addition tonight and figured should have some so2 as I tinker since temps will be rising. Not concerned about the ML. Might do sequential inocc anyway. I just hate playing chemist and 2nd guessing my readings.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 2, 2020)

Temperature does affect PH and it can be a Big effect. I found two articles that talk about it:









How does temperature affect pH? - TRUEscience


When measuring pH it’s important to also measure the temperature of the solution, as pH varies greatly with temperature. Many pH meters have a separate temperature sensor and Automatic Temperature Compensation (or “ATC”) built in to help with this. But how does pH change with temperature?And why...




www.truescience.co.uk













How Does Temperature Affect pH? Westlab


Temperature plays a significant role on pH measurements. As the temperature rises, molecular vibrations increase which results in the ability of water to ionise and form more hydrogen ions. As a result, the pH will drop. The dissociation of water into hydrogen and hydroxide ion can be...




www.westlab.com





summary from both:

The pH value of a solution is directly dependent on the temperature.
A pH value without a temperature value is incoherent.
Solution temperature compensation (STC) converts measured pH to the pH at 25°C.
pH values taken at the same temperature or converted using solution temperature compensation can be compared to each other.
To achieve highest accuracy, calibrate and measure at the same temperature.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Temperature does affect PH and it can be a Big effect. I found two articles that talk about it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Appreciate the quick info. After reading your response I realize my question is actually, “can temps affect ph _in spite of auto temp compensation_”? 
My older meter, the Milwaukee ph55 specifically mentions the built in temperature compensation and I always felt confident of measurements knowing it did that. It shows the temp right on the screen too. It’s a good solid meter. Only strike is one decimal point. And that it’s older with the original electrode. I just naturally assumed the VinMetrica also had that same feature and took it for granted.
Upon looking through the VinMetrica website it doesn’t mention that at all. That’s surprising But I guess makes sense now why I was getting 2 different readings.

anyone able to confirm if the VinMetrica ph meter does in fact lack the auto temperature compensation ? If so, I’m sure I’ll never forget again. Ain’t no better way to commit something to memory than finding out the hard way!


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

Found this online calculator to check. 

Corrected ph- 3.5971 Sounds about right. VinMetrica doin me dirty!


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## stickman (Nov 2, 2020)

The temperature affects both the solution as well as the probe, but the ATC of the probe only compensates for the probe error. So the solution can still vary in pH depending on temperature.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

stickman said:


> The temperature affects both the solution as well as the probe, but the ATC of the probe only compensates for the probe error. So the solution can still vary in pH depending on temperature.


Hmmm. Soooooooo... trust nothing? Lol
what’s the move here in this situation to get a legit reading? Warm up a sample in the microwave or something ? To get it closer to room temp?


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## CDrew (Nov 2, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Hmmm. Soooooooo... trust nothing? Lol
> what’s the move here in this situation to get a legit reading? Warm up a sample in the microwave or something ? To get it closer to room temp?



Let it warm up on the counter an hour or so and repeat the reading with your best pH meter and go forward. The perspective is that a lot of wine is made without a pH meter. But scientific winemaking is a good thing, especially with premium grapes like these.

I'd also do a TA titration so you know where you're starting. For instance if TA is 4, then you'd be happy to nudge the pH down even a bit more. If TA is already 7.5, you'd have to think twice about additional acid regardless of pH.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Let it warm up on the counter an hour or so and repeat the reading with your best pH meter and go forward. The perspective is that a lot of wine is made without a pH meter. But scientific winemaking is a good thing, especially with premium grapes like these.
> 
> I'd also do a TA titration so you know where you're starting. For instance if TA is 4, then you'd be happy to nudge the pH down even a bit more. If TA is already 7.5, you'd have to think twice about additional acid regardless of pH.



Oh duh  A Small sample on the counter—sometimes ya just get too up close into something to see the most logical solution and takes another set of eyes.
Well all signs seem to point to an ideal/safe ph range - but I really haven’t gotten good readings on these grapes yet and I’m about to kick things off. And yeah man, considering the nut I dropped on these grapes— (and the occasional evil eye I get when it comes up in convo ) I wanna have confident known levels of ph TA Brix, & so2 before starting and make that sc300 earn it’s paycheck.
Been kicking myself for not getting the YAN test chems considering how cheap it is too. I attempted to finagle lab #’s from the winery I purchased from since I know for a fact they’re also making this Wash cab. Ya know- ‘winemaker to winemaker, can ya help a brotha out?’ kinda thing. No luck tho. Only got a crappy sales pitch. Twice. You’d think I was asking for the nuclear codes based on the responses. They’re now on my sh*tlist.
And you can bet your ass I’ll be looking for Stone & Key Cellar’s 2020 cab once it’s released. I don’t just wanna make a good wine, I want to make it better than theirs!
Subjective Shmubjevtive. It’s game on. (Unfortunately I’m the only one who is aware of this ).
And If that means making a batch of frozen petite Verdot over the winter for blending purposes then so be it!


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## Jay A (Nov 2, 2020)

I had same experience with Vinmetrica pH device after a seven day cold soak. Couldn't find any info at their site either. Much to my surprise I didn't see much change in pH from pre soak test, after sample warmed up.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

Jay A said:


> I had same experience with Vinmetrica pH device after a seven day cold soak. Couldn't find any info at their site either. Much to my surprise I didn't see much change in pH from pre soak test, after sample warmed up.


Lol. That’s funny. We did the same thing in the same manner and dealt with the same issues Probably givin ya deja vu. . Hoping for my own sake that I _do_ see a difference as it warms however.

I woulda paid cold hard cash to see those basketball sized chunks of ice tossed into your vats as everything froze up and you praying the plastic didn’t crack!


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## Jay A (Nov 2, 2020)

Yeah, those chunks of frozen must were at least a 8.6 on the sphincter scale!


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