# Enforcement of 200 gallon rule?



## calvin (Feb 7, 2015)

Not that I ever plan on making more than 200 gallons of wine per year. But I was killing some time and searched the web for a while, looking for a story about anyone being prosecuted or arrested for breaking the 100/200 gallon rule. I found nothing. Just stories about illegal stills and moonshine. 

Has anyone on this site heard of such a case? I'd be interested to hear the facts about it

Again I have no intentions of breaking the rule. I already have more wine than I know what to do with. Just curios


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## richmke (Feb 7, 2015)

It seems like one of those numbers that is absurdly high for an individual, and not economical for a business.

Hence, if they ever find an unlicensed business, it is an easy conviction. Find 4 barrels of wine (55 gallons each), and the guy is toast.


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## shoebiedoo (Feb 7, 2015)

I only make around 180 gallons per year so I couldn't tell you


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## Runningwolf (Feb 8, 2015)

richmke said:


> It seems like one of those numbers that is absurdly high for an individual, and not economical for a business.
> 
> Hence, if they ever find an unlicensed business, it is an easy conviction. Find 4 barrels of wine (55 gallons each), and the guy is toast.



Why would this guy be toast? What is the definition of MAKING 200 gallons? Does it refer to bottling 200 gallons or fermenting 200 gallons. I have never been able to get that answer. Either way having over 200 gallons aging would not be an offence, right? How would that be any different then me having 1500 bottles in my basement which equates to 350 gallons?


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## Floandgary (Feb 8, 2015)

I would think that prosecution might be the plan if,,IF a person were suspected of making AND distributing more than said 200 gallons of product AND were guilty of failing to share with the local authority a portion of (presumed) profits, (in the way of licenses/fees). Never know about them revenooers tho!!


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## dralarms (Feb 8, 2015)

My understanding is that you can have on hand all you want, but can only make up to the 200 gallons a year. My first 2 years I made almost 200 gallons a year, last year I only got about 100 gallons made due to a unfortunate remodeling task.


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## ibglowin (Feb 8, 2015)

The presence of four barrels of wine by and of itself is not against the law. One could easily have 2 barrels from 2 different years. The law is there to put some form of limits on home brewing. 200G is about ~3 bottles of wine a day. If you are drinking that much a day you have some serious problems. 

If your caught making more than 200G chances are pretty good your selling some of it and not paying the GOV their share of taxes owed to them and that is the real reason for the law.



richmke said:


> Find 4 barrels of wine (55 gallons each), and the guy is toast.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 8, 2015)

....but what is the definition of making it? 200 gallons fermented or bottled? You can control how much you ferment but what if you want to bottle wine from three years worth of wine that has been aging?


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## ibglowin (Feb 8, 2015)

Ferment as that is when you actually turn it into alcohol. No one will ever know or really care if you make over 200 in a single year 99.99999% of the time. The law is there to shut down illegal business being run out of a house not zoned for that business, not paying taxes etc, etc.etc.. If you have cars coming and going all day and at odd hours with people carrying out bottles and cases of wine etc. Your neighbors are going to be the one that "rat" you out to the authorities.


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## dralarms (Feb 8, 2015)

I give a bunch away. Never, ever sell it or take "gratuities" for it. I find the pleasure of making it and watching friends faces when they find out that I make better stuff than you can get around here.


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## LeChat (Feb 8, 2015)

Pffft, I have frequently made over the 200 Gallon.


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 8, 2015)

ibglowin said:


> 200G is about ~3 bottles of wine a day. If you are drinking that much a day you have some serious problems.




Phew, scared me for a minute there, but I only drink 2 1/2 so I'm ok!


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## ffemt128 (Feb 9, 2015)

ibglowin said:


> Ferment as that is when you actually turn it into alcohol. No one will ever know or really care if you make over 200 in a single year 99.99999% of the time. The law is there to shut down illegal business being run out of a house not zoned for that business, not paying taxes etc, etc.etc.. If you have cars coming and going all day and at odd hours with people carrying out bottles and cases of wine etc. Your neighbors are going to be the one that "rat" you out to the authorities.


 

I would have to agree with this. Once it starts fermentation, it is wine. PI WINE told me this with the early wine. "Since fermentation stated they have to charge the taxes on the product." That being said, I've gotten juice that had fermention started that was sold as juice since it was not the intent for fermentation to start. For a home winemaker, it would be hard to prove when you started fermentation as we are not required to keep records...

I'm not a lawyer and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express either..


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## A2 (Feb 9, 2015)

For the record, if you do break the law please don't post here that you have.


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## GaDawg (Feb 9, 2015)

If you pitch the yeast it is tech. Wine.


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## GaDawg (Feb 9, 2015)

I don't see how one could make 200 gal of wine if one drinks 3 bottles a day?


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## Jericurl (Feb 9, 2015)

Honestly I think if they ever get someone on this law, they were already looking at them for something they were doing illegal. Either selling the alcohol or something else entirely.

I really don't think most of us have anything to worry about.


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## richmke (Feb 9, 2015)

In WI, the tax is due when the wine is bottled. So, technically, you can sell a carboy of old grape juice, and the person "makes" the wine by bottling it.


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## GreginND (Feb 9, 2015)

richmke said:


> In WI, the tax is due when the wine is bottled. So, technically, you can sell a carboy of old grape juice, and the person "makes" the wine by bottling it.



According to the Feds, it is wine as soon as you start fermenting it. Taxes are another issue. Tax is due as soon as it is removed from the bonded area.

I would presume for home winemaking, the feds would consider it wine when you fermented it. But, if someone doesn't keep records on when they start their wine, it would be hard to prove what year it was made in.


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## Sage (Feb 9, 2015)

dralarms said:


> I give a bunch away. Never, ever sell it or take "gratuities" for it. I find the pleasure of making it and watching friends faces when they find out that I make better stuff than you can get around here.



I see this a lot, "give it away". I would not be posting that on any forum. Read the rules about use.


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## x_diver (Feb 9, 2015)

Luckily I only make 199 gallons a year. And my neighbors are direct beneficiaries of my efforts.


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## dralarms (Feb 9, 2015)

Sage said:


> I see this a lot, "give it away". I would not be posting that on any forum. Read the rules about use.




Nothing wrong with giving it to family and friends. You will have to explain this.


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## Sage (Feb 9, 2015)

dralarms said:


> Nothing wrong with giving it to family and friends. You will have to explain this.



TTB, The Personal Use Exemption

Under Federal law, any adult may, without payment of tax, produce wine for personal or family use under regulations in 27 CFR § 24.75, which provide the following: 
•The individual must follow applicable State and local laws.
•The individual must be 18 years of age or the legal age to purchase wine in the locality, whichever is older.
•The individual may produce, without payment of tax, per household, up to 100 gallons of wine per calendar year if there is one adult residing in the household, or 200 gallons if there are two or more adults residing in the household. 


"•The individual may remove wine from the place where it is made for personal or family use, including use in contests or tastings."


•The individual may not produce wine for sale or offer wine for sale.


I read this as for your/family consumption. Note the "remove from the place where it's made". Doesn't say for friends use, only family or contests. 

For what it's worth, my opinion is, I would not advertise anything on a public forum!!


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## calvin (Feb 9, 2015)

I think he was giving it to his friends for a "tasting"


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## dralarms (Feb 9, 2015)

Sage said:


> TTB, The Personal Use Exemption
> 
> Under Federal law, any adult may, without payment of tax, produce wine for personal or family use under regulations in 27 CFR § 24.75, which provide the following:
> •The individual must follow applicable State and local laws.
> ...



Well if they want to harass me for giving wine to friends I guess they can do what they want.


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## LeChat (Feb 9, 2015)

Austin said:


> For the record, if you do break the law please don't post here that you have.



Good thing it's unrestricted where I live no?


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## A2 (Feb 10, 2015)

LeChat said:


> Good thing it's unrestricted where I live no?



I wish it was that simple. 

Servers are in Texas. I have to try and operate under Texas law as a consequence. I';m sure no trouble would come of it, but agencies will contact me, I'll tell them off. They'll come back with some sort of warrant, I'll fight some more. 

Really, abiding by the law keeps me from having to tell Uncle Sam to mind his own business, but of course I don't have to do that if you're not posting in the community that you broke the law.


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## LeChat (Feb 10, 2015)

Austin said:


> I wish it was that simple.
> 
> Servers are in Texas. I have to try and operate under Texas law as a consequence. I';m sure no trouble would come of it, but agencies will contact me, I'll tell them off. They'll come back with some sort of warrant, I'll fight some more.
> 
> Really, abiding by the law keeps me from having to tell Uncle Sam to mind his own business, but of course I don't have to do that if you're not posting in the community that you broke the law.



Feel free to give them my IP address so that they can come arrest me in Canada.

You might be surprised to learn that not all jurisdictions operate under the same rules.

I would never post about breaking the law on a public forum. After all, we all know that people posting on forums always tell the whole truth (and nothing but!).

I do get your point that you don't want to deal with this BS (is it ok to swear in Texas?)....


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## A2 (Feb 11, 2015)

LeChat said:


> Feel free to give them my IP address so that they can come arrest me in Canada.
> 
> You might be surprised to learn that not all jurisdictions operate under the same rules.
> 
> ...



First off, I'm not giving anyone's IP address freely. I'll fight that. 

I understand jurisdictions are different. Laws are different other places. Unfortunately the US Government doesn't care where you're at till they find out about it. They will contact me all the same. 

I ask a very simple thing. Make more than 200 gallons? Don't post it. Murder someone? Don't post it. Either way the feds come knocking on my door and I can live without it.


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## Bartman (Feb 11, 2015)

Austin said:


> I ask a very simple thing. Make more than 200 gallons? Don't post it. Murder someone? Don't post it. Either way the feds come knocking on my door and I can live without it.


No cryptic implied-homicide posts either??!! Man, this forum is just no fun anymore.


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## A2 (Feb 11, 2015)

Bartman said:


> No cryptic implied-homicide posts either??!! Man, this forum is just no fun anymore.



Why I oughta! 

Kidding.... please gmen, just kidding.


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2015)

Bartman said:


> No cryptic implied-homicide posts either??!! Man, this forum is just no fun anymore.



In Fire Island, NY, it's illegal to eat ice cream in public. (Seriously.) 

I did it anyway.


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## LeChat (Feb 11, 2015)

Just-a-Guy said:


> In Fire Island, NY, it's illegal to eat ice cream in public. (Seriously.)
> 
> I did it anyway.



I farted in a full elevator once.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 11, 2015)

LeChat said:


> I farted in a full elevator once.



Better that at church on those wooden pews !! The vibration can be felt through the entire bench !!


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## roger80465 (Feb 11, 2015)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Better that at church on those wooden pews !! The vibration can be felt through the entire bench !!



First hand experience, eh?


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 11, 2015)

roger80465 said:


> First hand experience, eh?



Never tell your son to pull your finger during church !!


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## grapeman (Feb 11, 2015)

I can honestly say I have made well over 200 gallons of wine every year now since 2010. All you need to do for making that much is get a license to do so from the TTB and in my case the State Liquor Authority of New York. If you want to make more than 200 gallons all it takes is a dedicated lockable winery and storage room, the proper bond, background check, fingerprints, full financial disclosure , several months lead time. adequate equipment and knowledge, diagram or blueprint of the winery and storage, and so on and so forth. Nothing to it. Of course don't forget adequate bookkeeping, reipces, label approval, insurance marketing and on and on. 

Please count your blessings you can make up to 100 gallons for a single person or 200 gallons for two or more (over legal drinking age of course). That really will give you enough to drink so please don't push the limits!


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## Just-a-Guy (Feb 11, 2015)

grapeman said:


> I can honestly say I have made well over 200 gallons of wine every year now since 2010. All you need to do for making that much is get a license to do so from the TTB and in my case the State Liquor Authority of New York. If you want to make more than 200 gallons all it takes is a dedicated lockable winery and storage room, the proper bond, background check, fingerprints, full financial disclosure , several months lead time. adequate equipment and knowledge, diagram or blueprint of the winery and storage, and so on and so forth. Nothing to it. Of course don't forget adequate bookkeeping, reipces, label approval, insurance marketing and on and on.
> 
> Please count your blessings you can make up to 100 gallons for a single person or 200 gallons for two or more (over legal drinking age of course). That really will give you enough to drink so please don't push the limits!




Having dealt with the NY SLA a bit over the years (on behalf of clients), I would say you pretty much nailed it. Piece of cake. Oh, and just as a little side note, make sure no money transfers into or out of any of your accounts involve anyone that might, well, fail a background check. Oh, and btw, the SLA is known to padlock shops, so you show up and can't get in your own place. So, just make sure you have somewhere else to sleep. And be sure to have in your Rolodex (or whatever people call it any more) the names and phone numbers of some former SLA members who are now in private practice. They, um, know the ropes.


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## roger80465 (Feb 11, 2015)

grapeman said:


> I can honestly say I have made well over 200 gallons of wine every year now since 2010. All you need to do for making that much is get a license to do so from the TTB and in my case the State Liquor Authority of New York. If you want to make more than 200 gallons all it takes is a dedicated lockable winery and storage room, the proper bond, background check, fingerprints, full financial disclosure , several months lead time. adequate equipment and knowledge, diagram or blueprint of the winery and storage, and so on and so forth. Nothing to it. Of course don't forget adequate bookkeeping, reipces, label approval, insurance marketing and on and on.
> 
> Please count your blessings you can make up to 100 gallons for a single person or 200 gallons for two or more (over legal drinking age of course). That really will give you enough to drink so please don't push the limits!



They should require that kind of onformation on our politicians and judges!


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## mmadmikes1 (Feb 11, 2015)

I have not gone over that amount in years. Only because I have been busy with other project. Think I will be a lot over this year cause its only February and the fermenters have been full sine New Years


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## GaDawg (Feb 12, 2015)

For me wine making is fun, it's a hobby. if it becomes work I'll stop making wine.


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## JohnT (Feb 12, 2015)

HMMMM.... 

I got a question.. 

Not that I would EVER dream of exceeding the limit, but I wonder if you had TWO adults making different wines in the same household. Would this mean that each can make 200 gallons?


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## Deezil (Feb 12, 2015)

Not so much John, it takes 2 adults to qualify for the 200 gallons/year; a single adult living alone can only make 100 gallons/year.


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## wineforfun (Feb 12, 2015)

JohnT said:


> HMMMM....
> 
> I got a question..
> 
> Not that I would EVER dream of exceeding the limit, but I wonder if you had TWO adults making different wines in the same household. Would this mean that each can make 200 gallons?



Not according to post #23.


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## calvin (Feb 12, 2015)

Well I guess no one has anything to worry about since no one on this forum could site one instance of an individual getting in trouble for making over 200 gallons per year. Just keep your mouth shut, don't sell any and you will be ok. 

Again. I made 115 gallons last year and it's more than I know what to do with.


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## seth8530 (Feb 13, 2015)

I think that is the biggest thing. Don't self incriminate yourself and second don't sell your wine.


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