# Second Year of Plantation Starting. How to prune?? Help please!



## daniyalsm

Hello everyone!

So I am a newbie at grape farming. I started a small 1.5 acre plantation at my farm last year. (This thread http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=581553#post581553)

I planted one year old table grape plants in end of February 2015. I let them grow without any training in order to maximize root growth.

Now it's pruning season and I have some varieties that require cane pruning (Thompson) and some that require spur pruning (Flame Seedless).

The Thompson plants grew much more than other varieties such as Flame Seedless and King Ruby.

I am not quite sure on how to go about the pruning. The Y posts I have have two holes for top wires that are about 6.5 feet from the ground. The wires will be inserted very soon.

Some questions that I have:

1. For both types of pruning, does the head of the trunk need to go as high as where the top wires will be (around 6.5 feet)?

2. How do I prune? What do I leave on and what do I prune off? Also for some plants some shoots are much longer than the main trunk. Is there a way I can make the shoot the trunk, so that I don't have to wait another growing season for the trunk to reach the top wires?

3. Please help me on how to prune now. I will be very grateful for any help and advice. Thanks


Picture of Y posts taken from earlier in the growing season







One of the shoots (the one creeping along the ground passing the green weeds) is so much longer than the main trunk. This is a Thompson I believe.







Weaker growth of Flame Seedless. Not sure how to prune 











Some prunings from a massively overgrown Flame Seedless vine (not part of main plantation). Some shoots had green interior while others had a white orange dead look. What is normal? Or are both fine and alive?


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## Pat57

I would cut them off with 2-3 buds above the ground and get them trained this year on a stake/pole so they go straight up to the wires. they look a bit twisted and sprawling to train now ? 

Pat


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## daniyalsm

Oh my! I hope I do not have to cut everything and go back to year 1...

Also please let me know if the following types of wires will work fine as line wires.

These samples are 2.5mm steel core covered by 2.5mm pvc and 3mm steel core covered by 2mm pvc.


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## daniyalsm

No one?.........


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## grapeman

There are many ways to go about pruning and training your vines. Like you said you didn't prune last year to let the vine grow good roots. That is good. The second year you want to form the trunk. This takes the whole second season. While it is painful, it is best to prune the vine back to several buds. That puts the stored energy of the roots into just a few shoots and gives a stronger response in the second year. It will grow vigorously. Like alluded to before, use some sort of stake to train the trunk to as it grows to keep it straight. Let it grow up to the top wire and let it bend over to the wire. After it has grown a few feet and gets to be the size of a pencil or so and if you still have plenty of growing season left, then you can cut the vine just below the wire. Let the upper two or three shoots that form below the cut grow and after they get a few feet long select the two that are best and tie them to the wire. These will become the cordons for spur pruning. Keep most of the lower shoots pruned off leaving mostly just the trunk and later the shoots for the cordons. 

This seems harsh but will lead to a more vigorous healthier vine for the future. They will likely be larger by pruning back to a few buds than if you try to form trunks out of small shoots.

As far as wire, what you show is a braided cable which will stretch and isn't all that string. What you want is 12.5 guage high tensile wire. It comes in a spool about 4000 feet and only cost around $100 US. You also want to use a spinning jenny to apply it to keep the coil from tangling and ruining the whole spool. Those are about $50 and up a bit.

I hope this is a bit of help to get you started and is not intended to be an all inclusive set of instructions- only a loose guide.


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## daniyalsm

@pat57 thank you for your help 

@grapeman thank you very much for the detailed info. It seems I will be cutting almost everything then. Also you might not have noticed, but the plant row is offset about 1 foot from the post row (Honestly I do not know why). Will this be a cause for concern, since I won't be able to grow 90 degrees straight trunks.

Also I have to follow the same method this year for the cane pruned varieties right?

Also there is only 1 hole per arm in the 6.5 feet tall Y posts. I can do something like a GDC with this setup right? Or do I need to make more holes in the arms.

I will try to not bother you much this year, since you have told me what to do for now, but I will be asking a few more questions later in the year. Thanks!!


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## grapeman

For the cane pruned varieties do the same things to them as the others up to the point of forming the cordons. They get headed just below the top wire (which should be around the point of the Y). Let all the shoots grow within 6-12 inches of that. They become the canes you select for growing next year. More on that later.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman So I started pruning today. The Thompson variety had much better growth. I removed all side canes and only left one straight one (trunk). Length varied from 12-30 inches depending on apparent health of plant.

The Flame seedless ones were generally much weaker. Those had weak growth and had thin canes growing from almost each bud. Now I might have pruned some of those plants all the way to the bud (including the bud) from where the tiny canes were attached to the main trunk. I later realized that I might have cut all the buds on some plants. They were left with just a straight trunk about 12 inches long with cut buds. Are those plants gone? Thankfully I didn't do this to most, and majority had more than 2-3 buds left.

Also please take a look at the following two photos.

When I cut this shoot, there was some blackened spots in it. Is this plant diseased and dying?






This Flame Seedless plant was bigger than many plants, however it looked very dry, and snapped when I bent it. Is this also dead?






Thanks for your time!


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## havlikn

The second photo doesn't appear to show any green tissue. There should be green tissue present if the portion is still alive. I would try cutting down a little ways on the vine and see if you notice green


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## Johny99

If it is alive you should see green. I agree prune it down. As for the ones you cut down and don't see or pinched off the buds, don't despair yet. Each but is actually three. Often a tendril will form. A healthy vine is very resilient and should grow, even if it comes up from the root stock, assuming your vines are own rooted. If they are grafted and come out below the graft, pinch it off and hope for one above, redraft it, or pull it and start over (sorry).


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## daniyalsm

Thanks for the help! Right now it seems all my grapes are dead after the pruning, but I hope not. Also can you please comment on the first photo in post #8. any clue what that black mass inside the cut area is?

Also I have a bad termite (and some other insects) infestation in the field (underground) and have been told that a lot of seemingly healthy plants might already be dead from underneath...

I have been told to use Chlorpyrifos (which might be banned in the U.S). Can someone please shed light on how dangerous termites are to grapes and what the best thing to do now is. Thank you.

@grapeman
@havlikn
@johny99


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## grapeman

I would not worry about the vine in post 8. It looks like the damage was done last year from some type of vine borer and you just happened to prune where it had bored in the vine. It could also have been just some damage done to the outside of the shoot and it made that one spot die.

Why do you think all the vines are dead after pruning? It is easy to worry over them, but they should grow once the daytime temps get warm enough.

Has a termite infestation been verified there? Here is part of an article I found reading on termites in grapes. It may apply in you situation and environment.

In newly developed vineyards in southern desert regions, surface foraging by _Heterotermes aureus_ has been observed in which young vines were killed. Heavy irrigation practices in desert areas appeared, however, to deter continued attack of established vines. Clearing of native woods, cacti, and other cellulose debris before planting may be advisable in preparing new vineyards.
Control is a matter of prevention. In newly established vineyards remove all cellulose and wood debris to help eliminate food sources. Take care to avoid scarring vines with cultivating tools. Saw cuts 12 inches or more aboveground are rarely a point of entry for termites, unless the heartwood is softened by woodrot fungi or reduced by branch or twig borers. Some surface-foraging termites, such as _Heterotermes_, can gain access to the vines at these points.

I make it a point of not speaking about specific chemicals I have no experience with. Verify you have the problem and then try to find a chemical that is label approved for your location.


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## berrycrush

Just curious, how much does it cost you for each of those concrete Y-shaped post?


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## daniyalsm

thanks you very much @grapeman

Does it mean that I should not let the cuttings of the vines stay in the field for decomposition?

Also they seem dead because they are dry and this is the first time I have pruned them. Plus workers told me about termites.. Hopefully they are not dead.

@berrycrush I believe they were about $8-10 per post. They are 9-10 feet tall or something. 3 feet underground and 7 above.


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## grapeman

You should get in the habit of getting rid of the cuttings after pruning. Some people burn them while others just remove from the vineyard. Either way you remove them to help aid in disease prevention as they can be a source of disease inoculum. In your case if you have termites getting rid of the prunings helps get rid of a source of food for them.


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## Pat57

daniyalsm said:


> thanks you very much @grapeman
> 
> Does it mean that I should not let the cuttings of the vines stay in the field for decomposition?
> 
> Also they seem dead because they are dry and this is the first time I have pruned them. Plus workers told me about termites.. Hopefully they are not dead.
> 
> @berrycrush I believe they were about $8-10 per post. They are 9-10 feet tall or something. 3 feet underground and 7 above.



Those cement Y posts would cost at least $100 here, probably more. Even if you made a form for them and poured them yourself, the concrete alone would probably be about $25 for each one. They must weigh a couple hundred pounds each?


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## daniyalsm

Ok thanks for letting me know grapeman! Highly appreciated.

Now I am going to put some liquid fertilizer that was recommended to me by the person who sold me the grapes. It is 40% Potash and 50% sulphur. Is it good for grapes?

@pat57 Haha wow. Yea they are pretty heavy, however I do not know the exact weight, as I was not there when they were placed in the ground.
Lots of stuff is cheap here, but then again it sells for much cheaper too. 

However some stuff is really expensive. For example a base level Toyota Camry (2.4L) costs in excess of US$ 100,000 here in Pakistan.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman Please have a look and comment. I pruned the grapes as you had told (hopefully did it right). Now they have started sprouting.
Can you please let me know which shoot I should train to go up to the top wire. Or is it too early to choose right now? Also what about the shoots growing at the base and lower parts. Should I let them grow unchecked? I plan to have two steel wires going through the top two holes on the Y posts. The plant spacing is 5 feet within row and 10 feet between row. Can you let me know whether configuration A would be better or whether configuration B would be better.

Configuration A:





Configuration B:





Also if you have any other suggestions, please let me know. It would be highly appreciated 

The images are in no particular order. Everyone is welcome to comment


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## grapeman

I can't comment much at this point about which to leave for the trunk. I am trying to see the pictures, but they are too small to see with my eyes right now and I don't have time to import and enlarge them. As far as the configuration to use, either one will do. If the vine is less vigorous the one with alternating sides might do better and if the vines are really vigorous, the four cordons would help control the vigor. I will check your pictures again over the next few days to see if they get larger. They have before for some reason so they may again. You have a while to figure out what to do. If I don't respond just bump the thread so I see it again.


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## garymc

One of the nice things about growing grapes is all the choices you get to make.


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## daniyalsm

So I went to the farm yesterday and took some pics. The grapes seem to be growing well. The Thompson, just like the previous growing season, are growing much faster than some other varieties such as King Ruby and Flame Seedless. 

Some Thompsons are showing what appear to be future grape bunches.

I have some questions:

1. For now do I leave them to be and grow unchecked?

2. Do I select one cane for the future trunk and make it grow straight up? If so, which cane do I select?

3. What else do I need to do right now?

For question number 2, If I am to choose a future trunk, which one do I choose? Does it need to be the thickest one? Or the one that is growing from the top (the place where I pruned) or the one from the base? 

Please feel free to add anything you would like. Thanks all

@grapeman


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## grapeman

First thing I would do is put in some small stakes to tie the vines to keep them straight. Bamboo is cheap and works well. Something about a half inch (maybe 1 cm) and 5 feet long works well. Push into the soil a foot or whatever you can get fairly easily. I would select one or two of the most vigorous shoots and get rid of the rest this year. Tie them to the stakes as they grow. The stakes should be tied to the wires to keep them from tipping over. Prune out the diseased shoots or begin spraying them for disease. The third picture and next to last pictures shows bad phomopsis or anthracnose (picture too small to be sure). Don't try to keep the flower clusters they will stunt the vines if you let the grapes grow this year.


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## daniyalsm

grapeman said:


> First thing I would do is put in some small stakes to tie the vines to keep them straight. Bamboo is cheap and works well. Something about a half inch (maybe 1 cm) and 5 feet long works well. Push into the soil a foot or whatever you can get fairly easily. I would select one or two of the most vigorous shoots and get rid of the rest this year. Tie them to the stakes as they grow. The stakes should be tied to the wires to keep them from tipping over. Prune out the diseased shoots or begin spraying them for disease. The third picture and next to last pictures shows bad phomopsis or anthracnose (picture too small to be sure). Don't try to keep the flower clusters they will stunt the vines if you let the grapes grow this year.



Thank you sir.

For tying, do I select only the 2 best ones or should I tie all of them?

As for getting rid of the others, that is to be done during dormancy (December-January) right?

All diseased canes need to be pruned immediately right?

Do I just cut the clusters off?

Here are closeups of the two photos:











Thank you!


@grapeman


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## grapeman

Keep the best two shoots and get rid of the rest now. That will allow those two to grow bigger. If possible get rid of the diseased canes now but if it is the only one then you can keep it and hope for the best. I am leaning towards phomopsis with those pictures as the lesions are fairly long and a split in the middle. Anthracnose is close but usually not as long of a lesion and it has a pit in the middle instead of a split. Either way a protective fungicide will help keep it from spreading. You will need to see what is label approved for your location and is effective for the intended diseases.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman

One of my farm workers raised a concern that the plants might leak a lot of fluids if cut right now and cause damage to the plants, when I told him to cut everything except two best shoots.
Is his concern valid or will the plant handle it easily? The average forecast high temperature of the next 2 weeks is around 95F and the average low is around 70F.

Also someone told me to plant hybrid papaya plants between the grape rows. The distance between rows is 10 feet, so he suggested planting papayas in the center of the grape rows. Do you think this is ok, or will it cause too much competition?


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## grapeman

You can wait to remove the infected parts if they are afraid the vines will suffer, but they won't grow as tall and form a good trunk.

Here is a link to anthracnose http://fruit.cfans.umn.edu/grapes/pest/grapeipmguide/disease/anthracnose/

And here is one for phomopsis http://nysipm.cornell.edu/factsheets/grapes/diseases/phomopsis.pdf


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## daniyalsm

grapeman said:


> You can wait to remove the infected parts if they are afraid the vines will suffer, but they won't grow as tall and form a good trunk.
> 
> Here is a link to anthracnose http://fruit.cfans.umn.edu/grapes/pest/grapeipmguide/disease/anthracnose/
> 
> And here is one for phomopsis http://nysipm.cornell.edu/factsheets/grapes/diseases/phomopsis.pdf



They are pretty much laymen and have practically zero experience growing grapes.

Thank you very much for the links. Your help is always highly appreciated and acted upon.

Just one more question for now. Should we remove the infected parts only or should we remove the other shoots also (other than the 2 good ones to keep) right now.


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## grapeman

You want to grow a grape vine trunk or trunks, not shrubs. If you pruned back to 2 or three buds this spring you shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 shoots growing now. If it has many tops remove the smaller more crooked ones. If you leave 8 to 10 shoots growing now, none of them will grow a lot to make a trunk. Year two is for growing trunks. Year one you left most of them to grow to make strong roots, now you only want one or two so it can form a trunk. Don't worry about small shoots forming off the trunk this year they can be removed next springs pruning. If you have too many shoots before the trunk grows, they will keep all of them short and you won't get the trunk this year.


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## daniyalsm

Ok so today I did the sample pruning of all the shoots except for the two I possible future trunks. Please check the photos and see if I did it right. I have only done it on 2 plants and want to make sure this is what had to be done, before proceeding tomorrow.

I am not sure why pictures are rotated this way.

*General view of the plant after pruning*






*A closer view at the pruning cuts*






*A closer look at the base of the two shoots that will be the future trunks*







Can you please look at these pictures I took today and diagnose the disease. Whether it is anthracnose or phomopsis. Also the best course of action is pruning the diseased shoots and spraying with a fungicide right? Also what if all the growing shoots have it? Some of the possible future trunks also have the disease. Will they recover after spraying?






















@grapeman


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## grapeman

You did a good job with the pruning. A nice clean cut at the shoot base helps minimize stubs and having new shoots regrow at that point later. If they do just rub them off with a stiff leather glove. 
Those pictures look more like to phomopsis to me. Mancozeb products help protect the vine. To be effective it is used as a protective product and needs to begin applications as the vine begins to grow in the spring. Cut off the bad ones possible but you obviously can't get rid of them all. Begin a spray program earlier next year and you can gradually get rid of most of it.


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## daniyalsm

grapeman said:


> You did a good job with the pruning. A nice clean cut at the shoot base helps minimize stubs and having new shoots regrow at that point later. If they do just rub them off with a stiff leather glove.
> Those pictures look more like to phomopsis to me. Mancozeb products help protect the vine. To be effective it is used as a protective product and needs to begin applications as the vine begins to grow in the spring. Cut off the bad ones possible but you obviously can't get rid of them all. Begin a spray program earlier next year and you can gradually get rid of most of it.



thank you  the pruning cuts should be as close to the trunk as possible right? and when they are that close, it eliminates 100% chances of any future regrowth right?

Also no use spraying any fungicide now? Will the vines be ok if no sprays for an entire year?

As always thank you very much for your help!


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## grapeman

daniyalsm said:


> thank you  the pruning cuts should be as close to the trunk as possible right? and when they are that close, it eliminates 100% chances of any future regrowth right?
> 
> Also no use spraying any fungicide now? Will the vines be ok if no sprays for an entire year?
> 
> As always thank you very much for your help!


 
Close yes. It helps keep regrowth down but not 100%. That's why I said to rub off any future growth at that point. If you look at the picture you showed you can see a couple tiny buds on either side of the cut. Those may grow but rub off easily if they begin to. 

Not sure what diseases you have their, but you should continue to spray for them because the vines may get them under the right conditions. Observe any precautions listed on the spray labels such as not spraying when temps are about 90 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## daniyalsm

I was at the vineyard yesterday and took some pictures. The Thompson variety has grown very vigorously, with many plants having both shoots above the support wires. I had two different applications of fungicides via spray. First I got them sprayed with Difenoconazole and Azoxystrobin and after 4 days I got them sprayed with Mancozeb and Metalaxyl. I believe the disease has been controlled for now.


I have 5 different varieties growing. 2 of them require spur pruning, while 3 require cane pruning.

First question is what to do for cane pruning varieties whose 2 shoots have already exceeded the top two wire of posts?

For spur pruning varieties, should I prune back to only 1 shoot instead of two and then take two lateral shoots growing from main shoot (future trunk) and place them on the wire to grow in opposite directions?

Also there is one other thing that has got me confused. I have watched some videos on cane pruning and they all tell to leave two canes, one for each side of the wire. I then searched online and found this (http://www.petercoppin.com/factsheets/fruit/grapepr.pdf). According to this, my cane pruned varieties require about 4-10 canes per plant. What does this mean? 

My wire setup is similar to:






How can I have more than 2 canes per plant? Where will they go? 

Please help me on this! @grapeman


Pictures from yesterday:


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## grapeman

I was at the vineyard yesterday and took some pictures. The Thompson variety has grown very vigorously, with many plants having both shoots above the support wires. I had two different applications of fungicides via spray. First I got them sprayed with Difenoconazole and Azoxystrobin and after 4 days I got them sprayed with Mancozeb and Metalaxyl. I believe the disease has been controlled for now.


I have 5 different varieties growing. 2 of them require spur pruning, while 3 require cane pruning.

First question is what to do for cane pruning varieties whose 2 shoots have already exceeded the top two wire of posts?

Head the shoots at the wire. That will allow several shoots to grow from that point and you can lay them and tie onto the wire in both directions. You can tie more than one on each side. You will leave those as the fruiting canes next year. Next year let a few new ones grow along with the fruiting canes that will be the bearing canes the following year and so on.

For spur pruning varieties, should I prune back to only 1 shoot instead of two and then take two lateral shoots growing from main shoot (future trunk) and place them on the wire to grow in opposite directions?

Yes you can do that.

Also there is one other thing that has got me confused. I have watched some videos on cane pruning and they all tell to leave two canes, one for each side of the wire. I then searched online and found this (http://www.petercoppin.com/factsheets/fruit/grapepr.pdf). According to this, my cane pruned varieties require about 4-10 canes per plant. What does this mean? 

You only need more than two shoots if it is a low yielding variety.

My wire setup is similar to:



How can I have more than 2 canes per plant? Where will they go? 

The extra canes can simply grow along with the main one. If I have a long node spacing of say 8 to 10 inches, sometimes it takes an extra one or two to get the desired crop load to keep the vine from getting too vigorous.


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## daniyalsm

Hello sir. I have a question. I pruned one thompson grapevine to just 1 main trunk instead of two as previously done. Prior to pruning, both of this grapevines shoots were more than 10 feet or so.
Now I want to know whether I should prune all the side shoots emerging from this shoot (future trunk). I already pruned the side shoots on the bottom part of the trunk, however there are a significant bit on the upper end. I am confused because I don't know if the plant will be adversely affected by lack of photosynthesis If I prune all the side shoots.

Attached image







Also do you have any idea what is causing these leaves to curl up and have a dried rough feel to them.







Also what kind of grape cluster is this? I saw a few of these and they looked like they were growing on the tendrils






@grapeman Thank you in advance


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## grapeman

You should leave the upper shoots on the vine growing so you get plenty of food build up in the vine and roots. It looks pretty good like that. You select the shoots you want to keep later when you prune again.

The leaves could be affected by insect feeding such as mites on the underside. Not sure what you have there for insect pests. There is also the possibility of herbicide damage which can cause cupping of the leaves. Some form of dicamba can do that and that also affects the flowers at bloom and can cause clusters like that. Two herbicides you want nowhere near a vineyard are dicamba and 2,4-D . It doesn't need to touch the vine as it can cause a cloud under the right conditions and affect the vineyard. Check your herbicides and see what else might be sprayed within a quarter to half mile.


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## daniyalsm

I have a question. As you earlier said I have to select the shoots to keep later when I prune, what if those shoots are all growing from below the head (the area where I pruned the main trunk recently)? Because in most of the pictures I have seen, the shoots or arms are originating from the head and not from below it.












Also can someone identify the disease/condition of this plant. Some of the leaves have discoloured and some turned brown.






Also a few plants have dried up and died. Most of them were small. Should this be a major concern?






Thank you!

@grapeman


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## daniyalsm

Ok so I know it is early to think about it since my next pruning will be in the dormant season, however I am a bit confused on how I will do it. 

I have headed almost all the vines at the top wire level, however I am not sure how I will take two shoots from the head of the vine and put them on the wires. I do not see two separate shoots emerging from the top of the vine (the place where I headed the vine). How will I go about this?


There is one strong shoot emerging from the right side just below the headed vine. I can make this go to one side of the geneva double curtain, however which shoot will I use to go to the other side?





No shoots near the top of this headed vine.




















Also I got my soil pH checked and it is between 8.0 and 8.5. Whats the best way to amend it? Add sulphur or gypsum or add manure? Also the discolouration in post 37 be due to chlorosis, which is caused by high pH soils? If so, how come it is only affecting 1 or 2 plants.

@grapeman Thanks


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## grapeman

Did you get a proper analysis done and not just check the pH? The full test will tell you what is missing and how to correct the pH to the crop grown. Not sure if they do those tests there or not but it would be a good idea to check. The deficient leaves could either be iron or magnesium. The high pH can tie up certain nutrients.

\When you train the shoots up, pick the ones that make most sense to get the structure you want. Remember these vines take several years to form and once you get them there it is relatively easy to maintain their structure.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman I have sent the soil for a proper analysis. Should hopefully get the results in a week. Also sorry to bother you again but can you please clarify one thing.

How do I go from something that looks like:











to this:







There is a large gap between the topmost shoot and the second shoot on the trunk. Do I take number 1 and train it horizontally to one side of the wire and take number 2 and train it horizontally to the other side of the wire? How does it work. I have the same question for both the cane pruned and the spur pruned varieties. What do I do 

Sorry for asking. I just want to get everything right as I have spent a lot of time and effort in this, but do not have the correct technical knowledge.


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## grapeman

That is exactly what you do with them. That is not a large gap at all. The one shoot forms one side and the other shoot forms the other side.


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## Masbustelo

I will let others speak to the pruning. Bu I wanted to say that some of the yellowing you are observing might be related to some of the vines roots having been flooded.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman Thank you very much sir! I didn't know that 

@masbustelo Hmmm. We use flood irrigation as for the grapevines as our drip system is currently dysfunctional. Watering is done about once every 5 days during May and June due to high temperatures (upto 115 F). The soil is sandly loam I believe and doesn't retain water for too long.
I am getting proper soil analysis done. I believe it is not the perfect soil for grapes. The pH is a little over 8 and the organic content is less than 0.4%. I will start amending the soil once I get the final reports.

Also do you have any input on the following pictures. The first two pictures are Thompson Seedless while 3 and 4 are another variety (I believe Flame Seedless). All plants were planted as 1 year old plants in February 2015. Almost 90% of the Thompsons that survived are pretty big as you can see. However only maybe 20% of the Flame Seedless plants are big. The rest are still very small even though they are now 2.5 years old. Is there any possible explanation that comes to mind?

Also the Thompson in the last picture is only about 4 feet tall. It had termite dirt or whatever it is called on it. Can it be that the termites have eaten it from the inside? I have gotten chloropyrifos applied to kill them.


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## daniyalsm

The following picture is of a grape I planted a year before all the rest. It was not trained properly, however it bore a lot of fruit this year (probably over-bore). Can anyone let me know why some of grapes in the bunches have dried up and browned. Is this a disease or is it physical damage.







In the following picture, have I labelled 1 and 2 as the shoots to keep right? Or should one of the shoot to keep be X. X is growing from the same area as number 1 is. 

Another very important question is that once I start putting 1 and 2 on the wire, should I remove all the other shoots and growth right now or do I wait till December in the winters.







Also any clue why this vine has dried up from the top, but begun sprouting again from the bottom? How do we proceed with such cases?





@grapeman I hope my questions do not bother you.


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## grapeman

You may need to hire a grape growing consultant since you have so many questions all the time. We are trying to answer questions here from a picture or two which is not always accurate. The forum is intended to be a place where you can get some advice occasionally to help out not an all inclusive how to grow guide.

I will say that the dried up grapes can be caused by a number of diseases but most commonly by black rot (needs to be controlled with a fungicide before you see it in the grapes). If it is black rot they will shrivel and eventually get all wrinkly and almost black in color. They will hang on the vine all year. All infected clusters need to be pruned off to help reduce the source of future infection. It can lead to total crop loss.

1 and 2 are probably the best choice to leave since the other one has a severe angle to the first and could split the vine when you try to bend it.

The dead looking vine dies because of some vascular failure. It could be cause by a number of things including some disease. We aren't familiar with all disease you may have there. That is why I suggest a consultant. Once located and hired they can provide you with appropriate site specific information and develop a program to deal with the problems.


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## daniyalsm

grapeman said:


> You may need to hire a grape growing consultant since you have so many questions all the time. We are trying to answer questions here from a picture or two which is not always accurate. The forum is intended to be a place where you can get some advice occasionally to help out not an all inclusive how to grow guide.
> 
> I will say that the dried up grapes can be caused by a number of diseases but most commonly by black rot (needs to be controlled with a fungicide before you see it in the grapes). If it is black rot they will shrivel and eventually get all wrinkly and almost black in color. They will hang on the vine all year. All infected clusters need to be pruned off to help reduce the source of future infection. It can lead to total crop loss.
> 
> 1 and 2 are probably the best choice to leave since the other one has a severe angle to the first and could split the vine when you try to bend it.
> 
> The dead looking vine dies because of some vascular failure. It could be cause by a number of things including some disease. We aren't familiar with all disease you may have there. That is why I suggest a consultant. Once located and hired they can provide you with appropriate site specific information and develop a program to deal with the problems.



Sorry about all the questions. There are no reliable grape growing guides or persons in my area and that is why I have to rely on this forum for the stuff I cannot find myself through reading. I probably won't have any more questions for atleast 6 months now.
As always thank you for your help. If there is anyway I can repay you, do let me know.


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## grapeman

I am not saying we can't or won't help you out as best we can. It is just that we aren't familiar with your local problems (and maybe nobody is). Consultants would be trained to recognize those issues and would be better equipped to help you out. We are strictly volunteering our help here and expect no compensation and I for one want to help the most I can but feel in this case I am not being adequate.


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## daniyalsm

grapeman said:


> I am not saying we can't or won't help you out as best we can. It is just that we aren't familiar with your local problems (and maybe nobody is). Consultants would be trained to recognize those issues and would be better equipped to help you out. We are strictly volunteering our help here and expect no compensation and I for one want to help the most I can but feel in this case I am not being adequate.



You are being more than adequate and you do not have to feel any sort of responsibility for the suggestions you give. For they are better than not receiving any


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman hope you have been well and have had a good harvest.

My vineyard is now in its third year, however still many plants failed to reach the top wires. Some which did only had one proper shoot going to one side of the top wire instead of both sides. Now I am wondering how to proceed. Should I prune off everything again and leave just one shoot, or should I take some fruit from lower shoots. 
What about the ones that only reached the lower wires? Can I take fruit from them or do I have to wait another year.

In this picture the grapevine has shoots both on the lower wires and the top wires. The top wire shoot going towards the right is very long, while the shoot going left is short. Can I still get decent fruit from this?






In this vine again the shoot going towards the right is pretty long, while the one going left is short. What can I do about these?






This vine has a strong shoot going towards the right but does not have any proper shoot going towards the left. How should I prune it.






Thank you in advance


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## Marctee

This is a bit of a stretch but u could check the videos on YouTube of Simonit&Sirch. The videos r in Italian but u may be able follow what he is doing visually. Their pruning method is based on maintaining sap flow and not making cuts that, as they dry out, interfere with the flow of the sap. They have an excellent pruning manuals for guyot and cordon. Again not yet in English.


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## Marctee

This is one of the books


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## grapeman

It is good to hear from you again. The vines like the one in the picture are doing pretty well. Prune off the canes on that lower wire, you are aiming for the vine structure growing from the top one. I would prune to back a bit on the top as they are pretty thin looking. Bring them back to where they are about pencil thickness. They are still a bit small to produce a lot of grapes but you can leave a few cluster on those vines this year.

The vines that are still short need to grow some more. Prune off extra canes getting them back to one or two canes and that will help to invigorate them this year. Don't allow them to bear fruit this year as that will drain the energy for growth.

I can't type a lot right now so am quitting for now. The cataracts have gotten worse and it is hard to see to use the computer. I have surgery Tuesday this week to correct the worse one and the second three weeks later.


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## daniyalsm

grapeman said:


> It is good to hear from you again. The vines like the one in the picture are doing pretty well. Prune off the canes on that lower wire, you are aiming for the vine structure growing from the top one. I would prune to back a bit on the top as they are pretty thin looking. Bring them back to where they are about pencil thickness. They are still a bit small to produce a lot of grapes but you can leave a few cluster on those vines this year.
> 
> The vines that are still short need to grow some more. Prune off extra canes getting them back to one or two canes and that will help to invigorate them this year. Don't allow them to bear fruit this year as that will drain the energy for growth.
> 
> I can't type a lot right now so am quitting for now. The cataracts have gotten worse and it is hard to see to use the computer. I have surgery Tuesday this week to correct the worse one and the second three weeks later.


I wish you the best of health and good luck for your surgery. Hopefully your eyes will be back to normal soon. Thanks for the great info 

@marctee thank you for the information


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## treesaver

Grapeman, I hope all went well with your cataract surgeries! I'm gonna have to do that too....but not right away!


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## Hokapsig

treesaver said:


> Grapeman, I hope all went well with your cataract surgeries! I'm gonna have to do that too....but not right away!


 
I had a cataract and they did lens replacement on both eyes for me. When I went in, I was 20/2700 and 20/3200. I came out 20/20 and 20/70. I wish I would have done this 25 years ago.

You spend more time getting drops in your eye than in the operating room. 10 minutes in and out. Little bit of discomfort, but not having to wear glasses works for me. Highly recommend that you get it done yesterday.


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## grapeman

Yes it did go very well for me. I had them done four weeks apart because I was sidelined for a bit when they thought I had a blood clot in the heart. They began me on one blood thinner that gave me symptoms like a stroke. I ended up in the hospital for three days while I had a zillion tests and they put me on heparin which required constant blood tests to monitor it. Finally after three days they gave me another test and it was decided I had a hole in the atrium wall inside the heart that had been there since birth. They stopped the heparin and a few hours later I was let out. After a week or so I was able to get the other cataract out with the new lens (about 10 days ago now). I need to wait a couple more weeks to have an eye exam to see just what I need for glasses. I think I can get away with just reading glasses. Things are just so much brighter and colors are much more vibrant. The surgery really doesn't slow you down much at all. I asked two days ago if I needed to do anything special besides the drops and was told no I can do whatever I want. That is good because there were a lot of things before I wanted to do but wasn't able to. LOL


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman
Sir there are many buds which have more than 1 shoots emerging from them. Do we keep both, or snip one of?








Also there is something that looks like a flower cluster with the shoots, even though bud break happened around 10 days ago. Can you please let me know what these are. Thanks.






Thanks!


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## grapeman

Where there are two shoots, while they are small just flick them off by taking your thumb and just tip them to the side and they should pop off easily. At that point you don't need to prune them off so it is much quicker. Those little things that look like flower buds are flower buds! As the shoots grow so will those and in two to three weeks they will likely be flowering. Don't expect big showy flowers. The caps turn brown on them and drop off exposing the internal flower parts. That lasts a few days and then the small grapes start forming. Good luck sir.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman oh great! So I will flick of the small ones. But what about the big ones. Is leaving them on good or bad? Also for the small ones, how to choose which one to flick off. Thanks sir.


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## grapeman

If the vines are getting established pretty good you can certainly leave some on this year. This is the third year for them isn't it? Figure on about a 50% crop the third year if getting established well. As far as which to take off, if there are two shoots at a node, leave the bigger one. You can always take off more shoots later if they are too thick. You can also take of more clusters later if you are seeing too many. Probably leave one cluster per shoot this year. After bloom and they begin to increase in size leave the first cluster and pinch off the other one or two on that shoot if there with your thumb and pointer finger nails. It goes pretty quickly at that stage.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman Hope you are doing well. Do you have any idea what is causing these brown patches on my Thompson Seedless grapes. We are following a proper spray program.







Same image zoomed in:


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## grapeman

I have seen those type marks from time to time but never been able to tell what causes them.  I suspect some type of piercing insect feeding when they are tiny but never been able to verify it.


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## treesaver

I've had my grapes marked up like that after a hailstorm several times. If it gets very big, it will knock the berries off, but small hail will make them look like that.


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## daniyalsm

@grapeman 
Looking to find some answers. 3 vines (all 3 are thompson seedless) in my vineyard have turned yellow and their grapes are also yellow rather than green. Furthermore these grapes are much smaller than the green grapes on the other vines next to these. Is this some disease or virus?











Some of the grapes have started to brown and die in these unhealthy vines.






In this unhealthy vine, you can notice that a few of the grapes are much larger than the majority. These have red arrows drawn pointing towards them. They are of the size the others should have been if the vine was healthy.







*Other than this*, even in some of the healthy Thompson seedless vines, there are clusters in which some grapes are perfectly fine, while others have browned off and died. I was following a slightly altered version of an Ohio grape spray program I found online (https://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/fruitpathology/Bulletins/Ohio Grape Spray Program-2014.pdf). Can someone help me with deducing what this is? It is mainly affecting the Thompson seedless variety. 






This damage is on an otherwise healthy vine


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## grapeman

I wish I had a quick answer for you. The yellowing vines look like a nutrient deficiency which can also cause shriveled grapes like those. If I had to guess I might say Magnesium or Iron. A leaf petiole sample might narrow it down for you. Also if you could get a foliar fertilizer once the deficiency is identified you could spray on the foliar nutrient which is fairly quick acting.


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## Masbustelo

I'm curious ( because your in a semi-tropical climate):What is your pH? Is there the possibility of high aluminum or other metals? What is your organic matter content? How do other crops in your area grow (meaning do they grow well)? What do your neighbors grow and what are the challenges they face, that are soils related?


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## daniyalsm

Masbustelo said:


> I'm curious ( because your in a semi-tropical climate):What is your pH? Is there the possibility of high aluminum or other metals? What is your organic matter content? How do other crops in your area grow (meaning do they grow well)? What do your neighbors grow and what are the challenges they face, that are soils related?



According to wiki my climate is "five-season semi-arid climate".

The pH is around 8-8.5. I have never gotten soil tested for aluminum. Organic matter content is around 0.7%. I think the summer sun burns up all the organic matter. Crops in our area generally grow pretty well. The main crops grown in my specific area are rice and wheat. Other crops include corn, barley, sugarcane, fodder, all sorts of vegetables, guavas, citrus, mangoes (not suited to this part of Punjab), lychees etc. Basically we can grow almost anything unless it can't width stand the summer heat or the winter cold (which isn't very cold here. Probably reaches 32F only once a year).
As far as soil related challenges, almost every field is different. Some are good at holding water (good for rice), others are well draining etc. I guess one problem is lowering pH for crops like Strawberry, which is also grown on small scale. We can use high sulphur fertilizers for that. 

@grapeman foliar testing is not really prevalent here right now. Should I just get the grapes sprayed for all sorts of micronutrients? Also I sprayed all grapes with GA a few weeks ago.


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## grapeman

You really need to know what is deficient or in too high of an amount before applying foliar. I assume the GA is Gibberellic Acid. That may have some bearing on the grape size since it is used to size up grapes. Maybe it was the wrong dilution rate? I really have no experience with it.


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## Masbustelo

Here is a link to an article regarding soil pH and grapes. Your soil is much more alkaline than that which is recommended. This will affect nutrient uptake and availability to the plants, which may manifest in many different ways. http://www.growingproduce.com/fruits/commentary-how-soil-ph-influences-grapes/ Also your organic content is low. If you receive sufficient rainfall and fire isn't a concern I would consider mulching the entire field with products such as rice hulls, wheat chaff, mango leaves, sugar cane chaff, etc. In time this will be incorporated into the soil profile and aid with many potential issues. Also remember that 50% of the plant is below ground. Mulch may potentially reduce root zone temperature by 7 degrees C. I think the problems with aluminum are associated with acidic soils.


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## daniyalsm

@masbustelo That is true, however there are lots of areas in Pakistan with similar pH soils that are being used for grapes. I guess I will start mulching. I can probably also add cow manure right?
As for wheat straw, we just got done harvesting wheat and have a lot of straw available. How do you suggest I proceed? Should it be on the entire field or only in grapevine rows. Also how thick of a layer should be good?


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## Masbustelo

dani Regarding cow manure; it could be an excellent source of nitrogen etc. but how have you been fertilizing up to this point? And what are your current nutrition levels and plant needs. Have you done a recent soil test? Also regarding using agricultural bi-products with your grapes (which I am advocating) is it contaminated with herbicides? Regarding wheat straw; it can be an excellent mulch you need to keep it somewhat pulled back from the vines if mice are a problem. Regarding depth 6-8 inches. It ought to be deep enough that sunlight doesn't penetrate it. It needs to be periodically renewed because it will decompose (which is good) and be tramped down as well. Do you get adequate rain so that potentially the mulch wouldn't catch fire? The advantages of mulches are many; weed control, less cultivation, lower soil temperatures, increased earthworm activity, intermediate buffer zone for chemicals used on the grapes before they enter the soil, increase organic matter in root zone over time, addition of micro nutrients over time, increased level of desirable fungi and desirable insect activity. If it is possible the entire field should be mulched; you will have much less evaporation. Where I am I use wood chips. Remember that as much plant that you have above ground exists below ground. With mulch and a larger water zone in your soil the plants will be able to extend root development between the rows as well. One final thought is that depending on the chemicals you are using and compatibility; with a permanent mulch and less cultivation it might be possible to inter-crop with something that might increase cash flow. Like chile peppers or bell peppers.


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## daniyalsm

Right now have been using chemical fertilizers. First done was just before bud break and the other was a little over 2 months after the first dose. Fertilizers used have been AS, CAN, SSP, SOP, Epsom salt and Boron.

Current nutrition levels are unknown. Soil test was done about 1 year ago. Our soil was fine in N and K but deficient in P. Those are the only 3 tested for. pH around 8-8.5 and organic matter 0.6-0.8%.

Right now there is fire risk as farmers burn leftover wheat straw in fields after they harvest most for animal feed. May and June are generally dry, with Monsoon starting in July. 

I will probably activate my drip irrigation system in this field soon, so might do even without mulching the entire field. Also my grapevine row to row distance is 10 feet. Do you think inter-cropping will be ok and wont strain the vines? Thanks!


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## Masbustelo

If you have access to adequate animal manures to fertilize your vineyard, and if fertilization is necessary and required, it is to your advantage to use them. You will gain the same increase of nutrients as with chemical fertilizers plus increase your needed organic matter, increase beneficial micro organisms, increase earthworm populations, add micro nutrients as well. I suspect the emphasis on chemical fertilizer comes both from the fertilizer industry propaganda and U.S. agriculture practice. In the U.S. labor is high $, it is cheaper and quicker to apply granules. Also the livestock industry and crop production industry tend to be geographically seperated. Row crop production practices in the U.S don't automatically transfer over as best practice into the vineyard. I would encourage you to use the organic (natural vs man made) materials and manures that you have available. Healthy, high organic soil goes a long way, helping with both chemical soil imbalances and disease and insect pressure. Regarding inter-cropping, I suspect that it won't affect the vines negatively which is why I suggested it. You will have to experiment to find out. Given adequate nutrition, and water is provided I don't believe they will compete. I suspect that U.S. and European monocultural vineyard practice may be in part be related to high labor costs. It is much less labor intensive to run a tractor down a row to mow or clean till vs. intercropping. Your in a unique and somewhat enviable situation. You have a high value crop and low labor cost.


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## Masbustelo

Remember to keep your mulch pulled back about six inches from the vine.


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## daniyalsm

Thank you very much for your detailed feedback and suggestions. I will definitely start incorporating manure, however I believe incorporating at this stage might not be the best, as I have heard fertilization should not be done during berry softening. Will probably do after harvest.
Will also experiment with inter-cropping, as that suggestion was given to me by others as well. 
What is the specific reason to keep mulch pulled back six inches from vine? To prevent rot, or to allow adequate water to reach the vine?


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## Masbustelo

To keep rodents way.


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## daniyalsm

Hi,

Just got a few questions. So my grapes bud break was around 1st March. Today (23rd May - about 82 days ago) some varieties are undergoing veraison. I am wondering whether they will still increase in size or not? I think they are small.
Also how to know when they are ready for harvest? I read in an article that veraison lasts 6-8 weeks, however mine began about a week ago and I doubt it will take that long at least for the Flame Seedless.
















About this Thompson, this is really dense right? I believe there are too many berries. Do you think the berries will gain proper size?






These clusters seem to weight more than 1kg (2.2 pounds)


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## balatonwine

daniyalsm said:


> @grapeman
> Looking to find some answers. 3 vines (all 3 are thompson seedless) in my vineyard have turned yellow and their grapes are also yellow rather than green. Furthermore these grapes are much smaller than the green grapes on the other vines next to these. Is this some disease or virus?



Possibly nutrient issues, such as :

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/IPM/english/grapes/plant-nutrition/iron.html

and the berry damage may be black rot or just sun scald:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/IPM/english/grapes/diseases-and-disorders/sunburn.html

If the yellow leaves are curling, then a pathogen like phytoplasma can cause both yellow leaves and drying of the fruit. This is more serious problem:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/IPM/english/grapes/diseases-and-disorders/phytoplasmas.html

In brief, hard to say exactly what is causing the issue just from photos.


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## balatonwine

daniyalsm said:


> I will definitely start incorporating manure



Raw manure is not ideal as it can be high in salts. Manure is best when first composted. See this:

http://articles.extension.org/pages/32929/compost-use-in-vineyards


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## grapeman

Remember you are growing in an environment strange to may of us in the US. Hard to tell if they will size up a lot more or not. Remember these are pretty young vines and the clusters are large so they may not get to normal full size. I think you have done a great job overall growing where they aren't commonly grown.


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## balatonwine

daniyalsm said:


> So my grapes bud break was around 1st March. Today (23rd May - about 82 days ago) some varieties are undergoing veraison. I am wondering whether they will still increase in size or not?



Yes, they will increase in size to some extent. But also see below. 



daniyalsm said:


> Also how to know when they are ready for harvest?



There are subtle features, such as the exact color and translucency of the berry skin, the color of the stem (it will start to go brown), etc. But those will take experience and time to learn. But since these are eating grapes, there is a much more simple and easy measure when to harvest: just taste them. When the berries are sweet enough to eat while not being too sour, harvest.

I have a few eating grape vines, which are only in one vineyard, and I can tell now by sight when they are ripe enough to eat, but I still taste them to make sure when they are at their best.



daniyalsm said:


> I read in an article that veraison lasts 6-8 weeks, however mine began about a week ago and I doubt it will take that long at least for the Flame Seedless.



In a month just start tasting them for a proper sweetness and sour ratio (or use a refractometer and pH meter to be more numerically exact). There is no clock you can set here to just know when any vineyard will be ripe as there are too many local conditions that will cause your fruit to ripen at a different rate than what ripens somewhere else. 

For example, I have four active vineyards in three different spots on the same hill, yet I do not harvest them all at the same time since they are in slightly different locations and will ripen at different times (those are all wine grapes). 




daniyalsm said:


> About this Thompson, this is really dense right? I believe there are too many berries. Do you think the berries will gain proper size?



Thompsons are often cluster thinned and berry thinned to increase berry size. More about that and how to increase berry size can be found in this publication:

http://www.aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_h/H311.pdf

Also see, as a complete "how to guide" to growing table grapes:

http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/s...ions/growing_table_grapes_ec1639_may_2011.pdf


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## daniyalsm

@balatonwine Thank you very much for the detailed info. As for manure, we only apply it to fields after it well composted.

@grapeman Thank you sir


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## balatonwine

This is for Afghanistan (part of a USAID program managed by the University of California, Davis), but may be helpful for you as well since the agriculture issues in Afghanistan are probably more like those you have than for growers in North America or Europe:


http://afghanag.ucdavis.edu/a_horticulture/fruits-trees/grapes


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## daniyalsm

balatonwine said:


> This is for Afghanistan (part of a USAID program managed by the University of California, Davis), but may be helpful for you as well since the agriculture issues in Afghanistan are probably more like those you have than for growers in North America or Europe:
> 
> 
> http://afghanag.ucdavis.edu/a_horticulture/fruits-trees/grapes



Thank you for the link. I already had read one article from the USAID docs for Afghanistan, but this link contains all of them. I believe the Afghanistan grape growing area will be closer match the Balochistan province of Pakistan, rather than Punjab, but this surely will have a lot of helpful info. I sprayed GA according to the USAID Afghanistan article.


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## rebusify

balatonwine said:


> Yes, they will increase in size to some extent. But also see below.
> 
> 
> 
> There are subtle features, such as the exact color and translucency of the berry skin, the color of the stem (it will start to go brown), etc. But those will take experience and time to learn. But since these are eating grapes, there is a much more simple and easy measure when to harvest: just taste them. When the berries are sweet enough to eat while not being too sour, harvest.
> 
> I have a few eating grape vines, which are only in one vineyard, and I can tell now by sight when they are ripe enough to eat, but I still taste them to make sure when they are at their best.
> 
> 
> 
> In a month just start tasting them for a proper sweetness and sour ratio (or use a refractometer and pH meter to be more numerically exact). There is no clock you can set here to just know when any vineyard will be ripe as there are too many local conditions that will cause your fruit to ripen at a different rate than what ripens somewhere else.
> 
> For example, I have four active vineyards in three different spots on the same hill, yet I do not harvest them all at the same time since they are in slightly different locations and will ripen at different times (those are all wine grapes).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thompsons are often cluster thinned and berry thinned to increase berry size. More about that and how to increase berry size can be found in this publication:
> 
> http://www.aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_h/H311.pdf
> 
> Also see, as a complete "how to guide" to growing table grapes:
> 
> http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/s...ions/growing_table_grapes_ec1639_may_2011.pdf



Hi, does anyone have this guide? The link no longer works. 
http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/s...ions/growing_table_grapes_ec1639_may_2011.pdf


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## sour_grapes

rebusify said:


> Hi, does anyone have this guide? The link no longer works.
> http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/s...ions/growing_table_grapes_ec1639_may_2011.pdf



If you want to join scribd, it appears you can find it there: growing_table_grapes_ec1639_may_2011.pdf | Vitis | Pruning


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