# Does yeast selection matter for aged reds?



## JimInNJ (Jan 4, 2018)

Merchants offer a dazzling array of yeast options with descriptions that make us want to try them all, even suggesting that we blend several for greater complexity. We are inclined buy into the marketing hype, sniffing and tasting throughout the process and convincing ourselves that we can perceive all those ephimeral notes of strawberries, hazelenuts and whatever, but after a year or two in the bottle does it really still make any difference?

Have you done side by side comparisons of split batches after a year or more? Could you tell a difference? Are there certain yeasts that stand out?

Or would it be better to choose yeast based solely on such boring parameters as alcohol and SO2 tolerance, H2S production, temperature range, fermentation speed, MLF compatibility, nutrient needs and the like?

Are there any clear winners in that category?

Thanks,
- Jim


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## pillswoj (Jan 5, 2018)

I think if you are using exclusively EC1118 (as supplied in most kits) then there are definite advantages to going to a yeast designed for Reds such as RC212 or BM4x4. I notice a difference when switching out the EC1118 and really it is only included in kits because it is foolproof.

Whether I could taste the difference between BM4x4 and RC212 I am not so sure.


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## cgallamo (Jan 5, 2018)

Not sure about 1 or 2 years down the road, but I made a Zin last spring put half on AMH and half on Rockpile, and it is pretty different. AMH is spicier and otherwise soft and mellow. The Rockpile is a little heavier structured feel with more fruit. Sorry for my lousy description, but they do taste different in the carboys.


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## ceeaton (Jan 6, 2018)

I did do a side by side ferment about a year and a half (plus) ago (QA23 and D47), but it was on two Pinot Grigio juice buckets from Chile. In the case of my experiment, I can't really tell the difference between the two wines, though I'll admit I had been a bit heavy handed in an acid adjustment, and "unadjusted" one of the wines before bottling. Now that was a white, so I can't say whether that experiment would apply to a red wine. I guess you'll just have to try it, age it and report back on your findings. Of course if you need someone as a taste tester in a few years, just PM me and I'll give you my address!


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## JimInNJ (Jan 6, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> I guess you'll just have to try it, age it and report back on your findings. Of course if you need someone as a taste tester in a few years, just PM me and I'll give you my address!



What if the test was BDX vs Clos on homegrown Cabernet Franc and Dornfelder?


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## JimInNJ (Jan 6, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> I think if you are using exclusively EC1118 (as supplied in most kits) then there are definite advantages to going to a yeast designed for Reds such as RC212 or BM4x4. I notice a difference when switching out the EC1118 and really it is only included in kits because it is foolproof.
> 
> Whether I could taste the difference between BM4x4 and RC212 I am not so sure.


Years ago when I was dabbling with winemaking I used 1118 and D47 on whites and Pasteur Red on reds, and they all worked as advertised. Now there are all these interesting choices and I guess I'm mostly wondering how they compare to Pasteur Red or whatever they are calling it now. It was always fast, effective, cheep, available and made decent wine.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 6, 2018)

cgallamo said:


> Not sure about 1 or 2 years down the road, but I made a Zin last spring put half on AMH and half on Rockpile, and it is pretty different. AMH is spicier and otherwise soft and mellow. The Rockpile is a little heavier structured feel with more fruit. Sorry for my lousy description, but they do taste different in the carboys.


Your descriptions work for me. Was the Zin from grapes? I would think the AMH would drive a longer maceration in that case, which could have a significant impact.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 7, 2018)

I've actually done many side by side comparisons of beer yeasts. Telling a lager from an English ale from a Belgian isn't that hard, but telling one lager from another, or one English ale from another... There are differences, but they are subtle, and they keep changing in the bottle over time. Eventually settled on a few favorites, but mostly based on reliability.

I finally planted a mini vineyard two years ago. Just enough Syrah, Cabernet Franc and Dornfelder to make a couple gallons of each. I might have close to a full crop this coming season, assuming the Syrah survives this winter. So here I am obsessing about one of the least important choices for next fall: yeast!


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## balatonwine (Jan 7, 2018)

Yes, yeast does matter:

https://www.winesandvines.com/features/article/49782/How-Yeast-Affects-Wine-Flavors

But not necessarily of overriding importance. "_A selected yeast can account for about 10% of the sensory definition of wine_", from:

http://www.decanter.com/features/yeasts-do-you-know-whats-flavouring-your-wine-245861/

Far, far more important is the quality of the grapes themselves.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 7, 2018)

Lately I've been splitting all my batches and using different yeasts. I don't have the palate yet to determine how a newly fermented wine will turn out in the long run. So after fermentation I combine the two. I learned this from a professional winemaker. He said it will make a more complex wine. My last batch I used 4 yeasts.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 7, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Lately I've been splitting all my batches and using different yeasts. I don't have the palate yet to determine how a newly fermented wine will turn out in the long run. So after fermentation I combine the two. I learned this from a professional winemaker. He said it will make a more complex wine. My last batch I used 4 yeasts.


I'd like to do that, but set aside a couple bottles of each before blending, for evaluation after ageing.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 7, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> I'd like to do that, but set aside a couple bottles of each before blending, for evaluation after ageing.



Good idea, but my problem with that would be having the right sized carboys.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 7, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Good idea, but my problem with that would be having the right sized carboys.


I've got 1/2,1,3 and 5 gallon handy, but my problem will be original batch size, since I only planted enough for maybe two gallons each of three varieties that ripen separately over several weeks.


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## cgallamo (Jan 7, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> Was the Zin from grapes? I would think the AMH would drive a longer maceration in that case, which could have a significant impact.


Looking back at my notes the AMH took longer to ferment, so yes, I actually moved it to a warmer room to finish up.


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## ceeaton (Jan 7, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> What if the test was BDX vs Clos on homegrown Cabernet Franc and Dornfelder?


Oooh, I've used both yeasts and have made both wines from local grapes around here, sounds like a wonderful experiment (and a good tasting one at that)! Do you make a blend of the Cab Franc and Dornfelder or do them as single varietals? I've only made one batch of each as single varietals, but I could see blending a percentage of either into the other, especially since my Cab Franc was on the light side, as far as body and color go (the flavor is pretty good).

After reading your earlier post, I agree with the differences or lack thereof you note with different beer yeasts. I started first with beer (May 1990) and love to make the same ingredient batch with different yeasts (mostly English) and have settled on WLP007 for my "house" yeast. I like the way it hacks at the malt and lets the bitterness of the kettle hops come through, especially on a low gravity English bitter.


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## Donatelo (Jan 7, 2018)

According to an article in winemaking Magazine, when making a particular wine ( I'm making Gewurztraminer) a particular strain should be used to develop the true taste of that wine. It lists D47 as the best choice for my Gewurztraminer. I'm going to see if I can find it.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 8, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> Oooh, I've used both yeasts and have made both wines from local grapes around here, sounds like a wonderful experiment (and a good tasting one at that)! Do you make a blend of the Cab Franc and Dornfelder or do them as single varietals? I've only made one batch of each as single varietals, but I could see blending a percentage of either into the other, especially since my Cab Franc was on the light side, as far as body and color go (the flavor is pretty good).
> 
> After reading your earlier post, I agree with the differences or lack thereof you note with different beer yeasts. I started first with beer (May 1990) and love to make the same ingredient batch with different yeasts (mostly English) and have settled on WLP007 for my "house" yeast. I like the way it hacks at the malt and lets the bitterness of the kettle hops come through, especially on a low gravity English bitter.



In my previous searches regarding yeast for Dornfelder and Cab Franc I had stumbled across several of your posts. So when you chimed in on this thread I already knew something of your interests. LoL. I'm very interested in your lessons-learned vinifying Dornfelder.

2017 was the second year for my little vineyard, so I only allowed a very few clusters to ripen, and harvested enough grapes to make 1/2 gallon total as a field blend. Most of the Dornfelder was lost to bird damage before I got the netting up, and most of the rest of that was consumed as table grapes before the resulting sour rot could get it, however it did produce a bit of a second crop that went into the blend. Something like 65% Syrah, 30% Cabernet Franc, 5% Dornfelder. With a batch that small I can't afford much for tasting and lab work, so I'm somewhat flying in the dark, but still learning a lot... Like that bird netting is required, and that the shelf life of K-Meta is significantly shorter than 14 years. My plan for 2018 is to bottle the three varietals separately, plus a blend. I do not know if I will have enough to split batches and actually do any side by side comparisons of yeast. What are the practical limits on batch size, before issues like oxygen exposure overwhelm the experiment?

I also consider WLP007 my house ale yeast for both American and English styles. I find it very reliable, given solid temperature control and a healthy starter. Two things a beginner is unlikely to have. Which may be part of why US-05 / WLP001 / WY1056 is so often recommended -- the beer equivalent of EC-1118. I occasionally use WY1469 West Yorkshire for lower gravity ales, especially darker ones.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 8, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Yes, yeast does matter:
> 
> https://www.winesandvines.com/features/article/49782/How-Yeast-Affects-Wine-Flavors
> 
> ...


Those articles directly address my original question and provide considerable insight. Thanks!

Here is another that meshes with the two above:

https://www.winesandvines.com/colum...72280/Yeast-Terminology-Science-and-Marketing


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## JimInNJ (Oct 4, 2018)

As promised, a yeast comparison is underway with this year's Dornfelder.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 4, 2018)

I am worried that effects from your headspace may overwhelm your yeast choices. Personally, I would want those vessels topped off better or racked down to smaller vessels.


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## JimInNJ (Oct 4, 2018)

The next morning a cap formed and filled most of the headspace.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 4, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> The next morning a cap formed and filled most of the headspace.



Oh, I totally apologize. I thought those pics were from AFTER most of the fermentation had taken place. I did not pick up that these were the vessels for primary fermentation. Ignore my comment and move on!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 5, 2018)

Heard a podcast talking about this exact topic. The host’s opinion was that no, yeast selection does NOT matter for ages reds. Namely big reds that are barrel aged for 20+ months. 
Said that the characteristics gained from yeast are noticeable early, but after barrel aging for some time those aspects fade and the wines natural tannin/profile take its place. 
He made sure to stress he was referring to big bold reds. (Keep in mind it was a Napa Cab winemaker)


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## Maynard123 (Oct 5, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> 2017 was the second year for my little vineyard, so I only allowed a very few clusters to ripen, and harvested enough grapes to make 1/2 gallon total as a field blend. Most of the Dornfelder was lost to bird damage



I have learned something this year about birds quite by accident. Last year I had quite a bit of trouble with them getting my grapes as they would ripen so. However this year my wife put up three bird feeders and kept them full each day and I didn't get any bird damage. I only have two rows of vines so maybe it will only work on a small scale but I will be supporting the buying of bird seed next year.


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## Maynard123 (Oct 5, 2018)

To weigh in on the yeast question one factor to consider is how dry you want the wine to be, some will ferment more of the sugars out for example Pasture Red VS a Champagne yeast. It depends on what you are trying to achieve.


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## JimInNJ (Oct 5, 2018)

This year I thought my primary avian foe was a catbird, who wasn't much interested in the feeders. He was giving me quite a scolding while I was working on the netting. Then my buddy saw a squirrel run up a trunk behind me and go to town on the berries. We fastened the netting close around every trunk and post, but the next day I found a squirrel sized hole gnawed through. That night there was an electric fence fully armed and operational. And it actually appears to have worked.


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## JimInNJ (Oct 6, 2018)

I can totally see yeast characteristics in a big red being overwhelmed after two years in oak.

My plan is to divert a couple bottles of each before the remainder is blended and oaked, and do side-by-side tastings of the unoaked samples at the one and two year marks.

Given the small volumes I have to work with, these will probably be 375ml bottles. I hope to do the same thing with my Syrah and Cab Franc with slightly different yeast choices, assuming enough survives to harvest. Further along the process some of the blend will be divided again for an oak comparison experiment.

I've already learned something from this experiment: that it is a lot of extra work.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 6, 2018)

For a small 2nd or 3rd year(?) harvest I think this is kinda perfect. Experiment your ass off now and find which direction you’d like to take later. 
Is 2019 expected to harvest decent volume for ya?


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## JimInNJ (Oct 6, 2018)

This is 3rd year. Last year I only allowed a couple bunches per vine to ripen, and the wildlife (and ensuing sour rot) got most of the Dornfelder before I got the netting up, so we used the rest of that as table grapes. The Syrah and Cab Franc, together with a bit of Dornfelder second crop, made me a half gallon of wine.

The Dornfelder is four plants, totaling 26 feet of trellis. I got three galllons this year, and it would have been at least four if not for the squirrels.

Syrah set a good crop, but had a lot of insect damage this year. Will see how much is good in two or three weeks when it is ripe. Cab Franc looks like it wants to wait for November.

The plants are getting established, and I'm learing as much as I can, so hopefully a full harvest next year.


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## JimInNJ (Oct 6, 2018)

Is there really much difference in FG between something like Pasture Red VS a Champagne yeast, or is it mostly a matter of other compounds generated by some yeasts producing a greater impression of body and sweetness. I don't think I've ever seen attenuation numbers published for wine yeast the way they are for ale yeasts.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 6, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> Is there really much difference in FG between something like Pasture Red VS a Champagne yeast, or is it mostly a matter of other compounds generated by some yeasts producing a greater impression of body and sweetness. I don't think I've ever seen attenuation numbers published for wine yeast the way they are for ale yeasts.



Pretty much all wine yeasts will take a not-unreasonably-high-initial-gravity must to dry. Some are not rated to survive above ~14%. Pasteur Red is rated to 16% tolerance.


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## JimInNJ (Oct 30, 2018)

I now also have Syrah split between D80 and Clos, and Cab Franc split between BDX and Pasteur Red. Will update in a year or two. ;-)


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## mainshipfred (Oct 30, 2018)

My Cab Franc has D254, D47 and BM 4X4 and turned out wonderful after press. The Syrah I used CLOS, Syrah and Rhone 4600. But you're a better man then me. My update will be 1 year.


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## Tom Martin (Nov 19, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> I think if you are using exclusively EC1118 (as supplied in most kits) then there are definite advantages to going to a yeast designed for Reds such as RC212 or BM4x4. I notice a difference when switching out the EC1118 and really it is only included in kits because it is foolproof.
> 
> Whether I could taste the difference between BM4x4 and RC212 I am not so sure.



Which do you prefer over the EC-1118 the BM4x4 or RC212 if you could only get one? Mainly I am making Red Blends, Cabs, Malbecs etc


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## sour_grapes (Nov 19, 2018)

Of those, I would pick D254


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