# Secondary fermentation in Demijohn



## Mudkicker (Oct 9, 2015)

Hello, this is my first post.

I am in the process of starting the second fermentation in six 54 litre demijohns.
(First fermentation took place in plastic barrels with crushed de stemmed red grapes that was left to ferment for eight days.)

I usually do the second fermentation in my heated garage in 54 litre demijohns with air locks. I have two questions...

1. Should I fill the demijohns all the way to the brim or leave space between the wine level and air lock.

2. How many days should I leave the wine in my heated garage for secondary fermentation before I rack the wine and transfer to my cellar?

Thanks in advance.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2015)

Hi Mudkicker and welcome to the forum. Glad to have you aboard.

You say you are using a 54 liter demijohn as a secondary fermenter in a heated garage. I would assume that you normally transfer to the demijohn when the SG is around 1.020. Is this correct? If so, you will still have some fairly active fermentation and I would leave a good bit , a liter or two should suffice, of airspace to avoid the dreaded "wine volcano" that could ensue. As far as how long you should leave it in the garage I would depend on my hydrometer and not my calendar. Were it my wine, I would keep it there until the SG was in the 0.993-0.998 range before moving it. By the way, how do you intend to move the wine to you cellar? Will you be stabilizing the wine? What final SG are you anticipating? What variety of grapes are you using?


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## Mudkicker (Oct 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hi Mudkicker and welcome to the forum. Glad to have you aboard.
> 
> You say you are using a 54 liter demijohn as a secondary fermenter in a heated garage. I would assume that you normally transfer to the demijohn when the SG is around 1.020. Is this correct? If so, you will still have some fairly active fermentation and I would leave a good bit , a liter or two should suffice, of airspace to avoid the dreaded "wine volcano" that could ensue. As far as how long you should leave it in the garage I would depend on my hydrometer and not my calendar. Were it my wine, I would keep it there until the SG was in the 0.993-0.998 range before moving it. By the way, how do you intend to move the wine to you cellar? Will you be stabilizing the wine? What final SG are you anticipating? What variety of grapes are you using?



Hi Rocky, thanks for the detailed reply. Your questions are WAY too advanced for me LOL. I am of Italian descent and my parents came off the boat in the 1953. My brother and I are carrying on the tradition the way we were taught. Only a few years ago we began to use bisulphate and yeast haha.
Here is how we have been doing it for the last several decades with mixed results year to year.
-crush grapes into plastic barrels. Add bisulphate.
-wait 24 hours and add yeast. 
-let ferment for 7 days while push cap down daily
-press the must and put juice into demijohns
-add air locks and let sit for 30 days in garage at 22 Celsius
-rack into clean demijohns and transfer into cellar.
That's about it.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2015)

We have a lot in common, Mudkicker. My side of the family is all from around Caserta. My wife's grandparents on her Mom's side came from Abruzzi and Calabria and her Dad's side came from Trentino-Alto Adige (her grandmother spoke both Italian and German). When I started "helping" make wine at home (late 1940's early 1950's) we made it much the way you describe except we did not kill of the native yeast and did not add a wine yeast to the must. I think we started using _Sodium_ Bisulfite in the late 1960's as a stabilizer and later moved to Potassium Metabisulfite.

You did not say what variety of grape you are using. We used a blend of Zinfandel and Muscat (3:1) and co-fermented both on the skins of both grapes. The process would begin in the first or second week of October. We would strip the grapes from the stems and leaves, crush them into open working barrels and let them fermenter for a week to 10 days depending on the activity in the fermentation. We "punched down" the cap a couple of times a day. We would then draw the wine out of the bottom of the working barrels through an opening plugged only by a tapered peg. The wine was put into aging barrels (54 gallon whiskey barrels) with an open bung hole on top and a spigot on one end and the barrel was kept "topped off" with wine as the barrel absorbed and wine evaporated. It was important to segregate the first run wine out of the working barrel and save this for the "family." Wine from near the "bottom of the barrel" and wine from pressing was also segregated and this was for people outside the family and for people who overstayed their welcome. We did not use airlocks on the barrels. We just made sure that the exposure to air was limited to the diameter of the bung hole. These barrels, depending on the activity, were sealed in early December with a bung and kept until around Easter the following year when they were opened. The wine was mostly "bottled" in 1 gallon jugs. Later, with the advent of sulfites in our process, we added sulfite to the barrel just before sealing the with the bung. 

I am very interested to know how you get the wine from the garage to the cellar. You certainly are not moving a 54 liter demijohn full of wine, are you? Hopefully you have some type of pump.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We have a lot in common, Mudkicker. My side of the family is all from around Caserta. My wife's grandparents on her Mom's side came from Abruzzi and Calabria and her Dad's side came from Trentino-Alto Adige (her grandmother spoke both Italian and German). When I started "helping" make wine at home (late 1940's early 1950's) we made it much the way you describe except we did not kill of the native yeast and did not add a wine yeast to the must. I think we started using _Sodium_ Bisulfite in the late 1960's as a stabilizer and later moved to Potassium Metabisulfite.
> 
> You did not say what variety of grape you are using. We used a blend of Zinfandel and Muscat (3:1) and co-fermented both on the skins of both grapes. The process would begin in the first or second week of October. We would strip the grapes from the stems and leaves, crush them into open working barrels and let them fermenter for a week to 10 days depending on the activity in the fermentation. We "punched down" the cap a couple of times a day. We would then draw the wine out of the bottom of the working barrels through an opening plugged only by a tapered peg. The wine was put into aging barrels (54 gallon whiskey barrels) with an open bung hole on top and a spigot on one end and the barrel was kept "topped off" with wine as the barrel absorbed and wine evaporated. It was important to segregate the first run wine out of the working barrel and save this for the "family." Wine from near the "bottom of the barrel" and wine from pressing was also segregated and this was for people outside the family and for people who overstayed their welcome. We did not use airlocks on the barrels. We just made sure that the exposure to air was limited to the diameter of the bung hole. These barrels, depending on the activity, were sealed in early December with a bung and kept until around Easter the following year when they were opened. The wine was mostly "bottled" in 1 gallon jugs. Later, with the advent of sulfites in our process, we added sulfite to the barrel just before sealing the with the bung.
> 
> I am very interested to know how you get the wine from the garage to the cellar. You certainly are not moving a 54 liter demijohn full of wine, are you? Hopefully you have some type of pump.



Haha that is too funny. Both my parents are from a small village just outside the city of Caserta. I usually tell people that I am "Casertano"

When transferring to the cellar (la cantina), we attach a wooden dowel to a hose. At the inserting end, we raise the hose about 2 inches so that the mud at the bottom of the demijohn is not disturbed, we call this "la feccia".
We siphon into 5 gallon pails and carry the pails to the cellar and pour into clean demijohns that are already placed in the cellar.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 10, 2015)

It is now 24 hours since pressing and pouring into 54L demijohns with air lock. I left about 5 inches of head space from the bottom of the airlock to the wine line.
There is absolutely no indication of bubbling activity, air locks are still.
What can this mean?

Also, I read somewhere that people stir the wine during the second fermentation, this seems counterintuitive to me because I expect to have filtration through sedimentation.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2015)

Wow, wouldn't it be funny if we were related?! I am sure my grandparents were from a small village near Caserta, too. I am not sure of the name but I do remember my maternal grandfather mentioning a town or village and the name (phonetically) sounded like "cammy yawn." He died in 1951 when I was about 9 years old so I never really got to talk to him about his home. Are you living in Canada? (Only asking because you cited a Celsius temperature.) And you carry the wine in 5 gallon buckets from the garage to the cellar. That sounds like a nice work out. 

Hard to tell what no indication of bubbling means without a hydrometer reading. Can you see evidence of positive pressure from the demijohn to the outside, i.e. if you have the S-type airlock, is the liquid being pushed toward the exit side or if you have the 3-piece type is the cup shaped piece inside suspended in the liquid? If you have a wine store nearby, get a hydrometer and check the Specific Gravity of your wine. In any case, because it has been 24 hours with little evidence of any active fermentation, I suggest filling the demijohns up to the point in the neck where the diameter is constant. That will minimize any exposure to air (much as we did with the open bung holes in the barrels). 

Stirring wine in the secondary fermenter is normally done when fermentation is not complete and one wants to re-suspend the yeast that has fallen to the bottom and is mixed in the sediment. Again, you really need a hydrometer to check the SG. If it shows that your SG is in the low 0.990's, fermentation is essentially complete.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wow, wouldn't it be funny if we were related?! I am sure my grandparents were from a small village near Caserta, too. I am not sure of the name but I do remember my maternal grandfather mentioning a town or village and the name (phonetically) sounded like "cammy yawn." He died in 1951 when I was about 9 years old so I never really got to talk to him about his home. Are you living in Canada? (Only asking because you cited a Celsius temperature.) And you carry the wine in 5 gallon buckets from the garage to the cellar. That sounds like a nice work out.
> 
> Hard to tell what no indication of bubbling means without a hydrometer reading. Can you see evidence of positive pressure from the demijohn to the outside, i.e. if you have the S-type airlock, is the liquid being pushed toward the exit side or if you have the 3-piece type is the cup shaped piece inside suspended in the liquid? If you have a wine store nearby, get a hydrometer and check the Specific Gravity of your wine. In any case, because it has been 24 hours with little evidence of any active fermentation, I suggest filling the demijohns up to the point in the neck where the diameter is constant. That will minimize any exposure to air (much as we did with the open bung holes in the barrels).
> 
> Stirring wine in the secondary fermenter is normally done when fermentation is not complete and one wants to re-suspend the yeast that has fallen to the bottom and is mixed in the sediment. Again, you really need a hydrometer to check the SG. If it shows that your SG is in the low 0.990's, fermentation is essentially complete.



I am in Montreal Canada. We come from a village called Vezzara and the county is Conca Della Campania. We still own my dad's childhood home there. I speak fluent Neapolitan dialect.
Tomorrow morning I will measure the SG and let you know. This year we bought half Merlot and half Cabernet and 4 cases of Alicante to give color. 30 cases total. For the first time ever we had the grapes de stemmed, I wonder if we will taste a difference now that the wine fermented without seems. 
In the circa 30 years of us making wine, only once, in 1999 our wine tasted like store bought wine. Every other year it tasted like home made.
Yes, the three piece airlock definitely has positive pressure, but no active bubbling. Usually the suspended cup moves up and down, this time there is no movement.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 11, 2015)

Results from this morning...


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2015)

Great! Looks like 0.996 or so. You are probably looking for something like 0.992, right? Check it again in a few weeks. You may not see visible signs of fermentation but it still can be occurring.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Great! Looks like 0.996 or so. You are probably looking for something like 0.992, right? Check it again in a few weeks. You may not see visible signs of fermentation but it still can be occurring.



I have never used a Hygrometer before so I don't even know what my target is to be honest with you.
What I will do now is top up the demijohns up to where the diameter of the neck is constant.
But my question is, should I stir or not? Like I mentioned it seems counterintuitive to me because I want the wine to be clear when I rack for the first time and transfer to cellar. What do you think?


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## Bubba1 (Oct 11, 2015)

Mudkicker & Rocky we could all be related my father is also from Caserta a town called Marigiliano my last name is Somma like the mountain next to Vesuvius and we made wine the same way you described for years it was all good we did a 3:1 ratio of muscat and allicante. thanks for the memories.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2015)

I would not stir the wine at this point. I would top it off and let is sit for about two weeks and then move it to the carboys in the cellar.

Your wine would be considered "dry" by most people right now. Anything below SG 1.000 is considered "dry." Further, people have broken the "dry" category all the way down to "bone dry" which has an SG of about 0.990. I would suggest that if you topped off as you describe and keep the wine in the carboys for about two weeks, rack off any sediment that you still have in the "garage" carboys and move the wine to the "cellar" carboys you will have a drinkable wine around Easter, 2016. If you let the wine bulk age in the cellar for a year or two, you will have a really great wine. Keep an eye on your sulfite levels if you plan to bulk age. When I bulk age in demijohns (I only have two), I add about 1/2 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite every 3 or 4 months. This works for me but you should determine what works for you.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2015)

Bubba1 said:


> Mudkicker & Rocky we could all be related my father is also from Caserta a town called Marigiliano my last name is Somma like the mountain next to Vesuvius and we made wine the same way you described for years it was all good we did a 3:1 ratio of muscat and allicante. thanks for the memories.


 
Wouldn't that be something, Bubba. My last name is (surprise!) Rocco and my paternal grandmother's was Fusco, my Mother's maiden name was Iovino and her Mother's maiden name was Capabianco. I wish I knew the towns or villages my grandparents came from but, sadly, I don't. My maternal grandmother and my paternal grandfather died long before I was born and both of my remaining grandparents died in 1951 when I was 8 or 9. I do know that they all emigrated just before the turn of the 20th Century and ironically, my Mother's Father and my Father's Mother came over on the same ship but at different times.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I would not stir the wine at this point. I would top it off and let is sit for about two weeks and then move it to the carboys in the cellar.
> 
> Your wine would be considered "dry" by most people right now. Anything below SG 1.000 is considered "dry." Further, people have broken the "dry" category all the way down to "bone dry" which has an SG of about 0.990. I would suggest that if you topped off as you describe and keep the wine in the carboys for about two weeks, rack off any sediment that you still have in the "garage" carboys and move the wine to the "cellar" carboys you will have a drinkable wine around Easter, 2016. If you let the wine bulk age in the cellar for a year or two, you will have a really great wine. Keep an eye on your sulfite levels if you plan to bulk age. When I bulk age in demijohns (I only have two), I add about 1/2 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite every 3 or 4 months. This works for me but you should determine what works for you.



Thanks for the info Rocky. When you say "bulk" age, is that any different than what I currently do...that is leave the wine in 54 litre carboys in the cellar for one year before racking into one gallon and one litre bottles?

Few more questions for you...
-should I add Potassium Metabisulfite after the first racking?
-should I continue with air locks or caps once transferred to the cellar?
-should I age with wood chips?
-what is the main reason that my wine never tastes like store bought? It always tastes like home made. What is the missing link?


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## Mudkicker (Oct 11, 2015)

Bubba1 said:


> Mudkicker & Rocky we could all be related my father is also from Caserta a town called Marigiliano my last name is Somma like the mountain next to Vesuvius and we made wine the same way you described for years it was all good we did a 3:1 ratio of muscat and allicante. thanks for the memories.


Bubba, we are 80km northeast from Marigliano. You are very close to Naples you lucky bum! Best pizza and espresso on the planet!


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2015)

Thanks for the info Rocky. When you say "bulk" age, is that any different than what I currently do...that is leave the wine in 54 litre carboys in the cellar for one year before racking into one gallon and one litre bottles? That is referred to as bulk aging, i.e. aging in bulk in a 54 gallon vessel vs. aging in a 750 ml bottle.

(As for these other questions, you would get varying answers from people, but this is what I do and what works for me. Therefore, what I am noting here is my way and is a suggestion and not necessarily a recommendation.)

Few more questions for you...
-should I add Potassium Metabisulfite after the first racking? I would add K-meta (Potassium Metabisulfite) at the approximate rate of 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons. More precise wine makers would test for sulfites and add based on their results. A quarter teaspoon is a good rough amount if you are not being precise, i.e. testing. 
-should I continue with air locks or caps once transferred to the cellar? Again, some people would say solid stopper, some would say with airlock. Personally, I use an airlock so I don't have to worry about significant changes in barometric pressure forcing the solid stopper out of the vessel when I am not looking. One the other hand, if you use an airlock, you have to check the liquid level from time to time to be certain it has not dried out and is letting air in the demijohn. Lastly, I prefer the S type airlock because I find the liquid in it evaporates at a slower rate than in the 3 piece design.
-should I age with wood chips? This is a matter of individual taste. I happen to like an "oakey" wine so I add oak cubes during bulk aging.
-what is the main reason that my wine never tastes like store bought? I would guess it is because you are a good wine maker! It always tastes like home made. (and it is!) What is the missing link? I have heard this comment many times as though "store bought" wine is the way "wine" is supposed to taste. Personally, I prefer the taste of my homemade wine to store bought wine. I know what has gone into it and what has not such as other varieties of grapes, chemicals, dyes, color enhancers, sweeteners, thickeners, et al, not to mention field mice, rabbits and snakes that happen to be in the way when the grape picking machine comes through. 

You are Italian so I would wager that you also like to cook and bake (I know that I do). Is Ragu better than your pasta sauce? Or is the bread you buy in the store better than your own? My wife makes all of our bread and we refer to it as our "communion host." I'll bet you can make an excellent pizza that would put Pizza Hut and Papa Johns to shame. Do you like the taste of your wine? If so, you have succeeded in making good wine. If not, what is it about your wine you feel is lacking vs. store bought. If you can identify that, then that is something you can work to improve.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 12, 2015)

Rocky, I can't thank you enough for your detailed responses, it helps a lot!

What you say about home made bread, pizza and pasta sauce is so true...I cannot even pallet stuff like Ragu and Classico, yuck!!!

For example, I don't like Liano, I find it too thick and full bodied. Some of my favourites are Niponzzano and Farnito in terms of "affordable wines"

I guess that I would like my wine to be a touch thicker and have more body.

This year, having fermented my wine without the stems for the first time makes me very curious to see if I will be able to notice a difference in taste from previous years.

I've always wanted to purchase oak barrels to bulk age my wine, perhaps one day.


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## heatherd (Oct 12, 2015)

Muddkicker,
I think oak and tannins will help your wine. Adding both during the year of aging will help their taste.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 12, 2015)

heatherd said:


> Muddkicker,
> I think oak and tannins will help your wine. Adding both during the year of aging will help their taste.



Can you recommend a tannin product designed to use during bulk aging?
Regarding Oak, chips or cubes?


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## heatherd (Oct 12, 2015)

Scott Labs has a few tannins:
http://www.scottlab.com/product-132.aspx

I like spirals for aging, but chips and cubes also work.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 16, 2015)

My wine is currently in secondary fermentation in my garage at 22 degrees Celsius. What difference would it make if I rack and transfer to cellar in four weeks instead of two weeks?


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## Rocky (Oct 16, 2015)

Mudkicker said:


> My wine is currently in secondary fermentation in my garage at 22 degrees Celsius. What difference would it make if I rack and transfer to cellar in four weeks instead of two weeks?


 
I am sure you are protecting it with an airlock. I don't think it would make a lot of difference if you have to leave it for an extra two weeks. It would be best to move it as soon as possible to the cellar which I imagine has a lower and more constant temperature and probably better protection from UV light.


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## Mudkicker (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I am sure you are protecting it with an airlock. I don't think it would make a lot of difference if you have to leave it for an extra two weeks. It would be best to move it as soon as possible to the cellar which I imagine has a lower and more constant temperature and probably better protection from UV light.



Hey Rocky, yes they are all properly air locked and for sure the cellar has more constant temperature and is cold and dark.

My father insists on racking it one more time in a few months from now before it is ready to drink. Is this necessary?


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## gabe (Oct 14, 2018)

Do yourself and your back a favor.
To transfer your wine from garage to cellar look into purchasing the allinonewinepump.com. It will even transfer from cellar to garage if need be.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 15, 2018)

GABE - Please check the date of this thread -* It's THREE (3) Years old *- pointless to post to it


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