# To sanitize or not, is there a compromise?



## shanek17 (Aug 5, 2012)

What do yall think ? sanitizing seems to be the biggest concern among many home brewers whether making wine or beer. And I notice that some people begin obsessing and stressing over sanitizing. I am beginning to see both perspectives on this subject and Id like to here your thoughts on it. Do the yeast have natural strength to keep things good? Does the alcohol percentage and other beneficial ingredients help to keep things good and in balance? 

I watch this video recently and this is what helped me see the other perspective on the matter. 


brew bannana beer - for all the sanitizing freaks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Fb-JwtE4Lw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## GreginND (Aug 5, 2012)

I've talked about this before. Wine has the right levels of alcohol and acid to prevent bacteria that are harmful to us from growing in it. It is very forgiving. Other bacteria, while not harmful to us, can spoil wine and judicious levels of SO2 in the must and wine are best to protect it. Given that, I find it wholly unnecessary to obsessively sanitize every bucket, spoon, etc with sanitizer solution as long as they are CLEAN. For crying out loud, we don't wash all our grapes in sulfite before we crush them. We take them from the field and dump them into the crusher. How will a clean hand or clean spoon be worrisome?

I wash everything well with hot soapy water, sometimes with sanitizers or even bleach when I put them away. When I get out my equipment I will rinse well with hot water. Rarely do I rinse with sanitizer. In 12 years I've never had a spoiled batch.

I haven't made beer but I believe you need to be much more strict in your sanitation because beer is lower in acid and lower in alcohol creating an environment which is more prone to bacterial growth.


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## oldwhiskers (Aug 5, 2012)

I don't go overboard like some that I have seen that think they have to be as sterile as a laboratory, but I make sure everything is clean and I use a spray bottle with a StarSan solution to spray everything down before use. So far I have not had a problem, probably the biggest thing to do is to clean everything well after each use.


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## DoctorCAD (Aug 6, 2012)

If you DO get a "bad" batch, you will curse yourself up and down while sitting on that toilet in extreme pain!


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## Bartman (Aug 6, 2012)

I agree with Greg. In the five+ years I have been making wine (between 500 and 600 gallons in 3-6 gallon batches), I have had -0- ruined or 'bad' batches from sanitizing-related issues (two disappointing batches that had to do with degassing and sediment removal), and I rely on city-sanitized tap water (which I drink directly) to keep things sanitary 'enough'. For example, when fermenting fresh grapes or with a grape pack, I don't sanitize the stirring spoon I use every day - I wash it with hot water before and after stirring and let it air dry.

In those 5+ years, I have had several occasions to sit on the toilet DoctorCAD refers to from eating bad food at restaurants - but I haven't stopped eating out either!


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## GreginND (Aug 6, 2012)

I'm not worried at all about anything in wine being harmful to me. I am mostly concerned about wine spoilage microbes. Judicious use of SO2 in the wine will keep them at bay. Wine is not sterile, equipment is not sterile, even if we obsessively rinse with sanitizer. I don't think anyone submerges everything in bleach right before their wine touches it. As long as you keep things CLEAN, sanitary and the wine itself has sufficient levels of sulfite I can't imagine it having any problems from microbes.


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## robie (Aug 6, 2012)

Bartman said:


> I agree with Greg. In the five+ years I have been making wine (between 500 and 600 gallons in 3-6 gallon batches), I have had -0- ruined or 'bad' batches from sanitizing-related issues (two disappointing batches that had to do with degassing and sediment removal), and I rely on city-sanitized tap water (which I drink directly) to keep things sanitary 'enough'. For example, when fermenting fresh grapes or with a grape pack, I don't sanitize the stirring spoon I use every day - I wash it with hot water before and after stirring and let it air dry.
> 
> In those 5+ years, I have had several occasions to sit on the toilet DoctorCAD refers to from eating bad food at restaurants - but I haven't stopped eating out either!



Some of those people who text while they drive have also been doing it for years and never had a single problem...

What's so wrong about following proven, sanitation procedures? It's not expensive, it's not hard, and it works.


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## GreginND (Aug 6, 2012)

robie said:


> What's so wrong about following proven, sanitation procedures? It's not expensive, it's not hard, and it works.



Didn't mean to imply not to follow proven sanitation procedures. I just think some folks get overly obsessed with sanitation to the point of overkill. Clean and dry equipment is generally sanitary enough for wine. That's all. 

What I see over and over are people getting all anxious and worried about their wine if the forgot to rinse their spoon with some sanitizer before stirring their must.


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## DoctorCAD (Aug 6, 2012)

GreginND said:


> Didn't mean to imply not to follow proven sanitation procedures. I just think some folks get overly obsessed with sanitation to the point of overkill. Clean and dry equipment is generally sanitary enough for wine. That's all.
> 
> What I see over and over are people getting all anxious and worried about their wine if the forgot to rinse their spoon with some sanitizer before stirring their must.



I went to a barrel tasting at a winery in the Livermore Valley several years ago. The head vintner was using a rag to wipe off the wine thief between blending and tastings.

He simply rinsed the wine thief off and hung it back up on the wall next to the barrel. I asked him about it and he said that he had been doing that for a long time and hadn't had a batch go bad yet.

After there is a 12% solution of alcohol in the wine, it keeps itself pretty sterile.


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## BernardSmith (Aug 6, 2012)

As a very new newbie to wine making I can see two different positions being argued here but these arguments seem to highlight two very different points along the time line of wine production. It is one thing to argue that when the wine in question is already at 11 or 12 percent ABV it may be relatively protected from all kinds of undesirable bacterial growth (although presumably MLF takes place through bacteria) It is quite another thing to argue that in the first days of fermentation when the must may contain 1 or 2 or even 5 or 7 percent alcohol by volume and where the pH may yet be so high (insufficiently acidic) as to not dis-inhibit spoilage, where the yeast you have added may be competing with other wild yeasts and other bacteria that you might prefer don't take root or flourish, that a more sanitary approach may be useful. Being more careful about cleanliness and sanitation in the earlier stages of wine production does not mean that you "obsess" about sanitary practices.


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## bob1 (Aug 6, 2012)

I was one that obsessed about it until I did the same thing Doctor Cad did and I saw the same thing he did. I asked for a sample from the barrel he got out a thief and rinsed it off in the sink, he did hold it up for a bit and let most of the water run off , then got me a sample. But still to this day I dont thief my wine till a rinse with sanitizer or use a spoon that wasnt. Though I know I dont need to.


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## oldwhiskers (Aug 6, 2012)

I just play it safe, I'd rather drink the results of my labor instead of risking having to pour it out. The spray bottle of StarSan is so easy its not really a bother.


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## joea132 (Aug 6, 2012)

I've argued this on here myself. People obsess and stress over sanitizing when wine in and of itself is a relatively poor environment for bacteria. I am pretty strict especially in the beginning but tend to be more lax after fermentation. I understand playing it safe and I do add sulfites but I don't over stress it and sometimes let it get a little low on sulfites before I replenish them.


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## joeswine (Aug 6, 2012)

*As you beginning as you end?*

THE REASON FOR SANITATION. SIMPLE, BE TRYING TO FIGHT THE BACTERIA IN ITS NATURAL STATE IN THE WINE, AS WELL IS EVERYTHING THE WINE COMES IN CONTACT WITH YOU'RE ALSO REINSTATING BACTERIA TO CONTROL GROWTH OF THE WINE AND TO STABILIZE THE GOOD BACTERIA IN IT . THE RULE OF THUMB IS TO SANITIZE EVERYTHING THAT THE WINE COMES IN CONTACT WITH LIKE ROBIE SAID, IT'S NOT EXPENSIVE TO DO , ITS THE CORRECT PROCEDURE TO FOLLOW AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY BATCHES OF WINE YOU MADE . I'VE BEEN WAKING MAKING WINE FOR 10 YEARS NOW AND HAVE MADE EVERY MISTAKE IN THE BOOK, SOME OF THEM WAS FROM IMPROPER SANITATION(TRYING TO MOVE TO FAST- CUTTING TIME), BUT YOU DON'T FIND THAT UNTIL YOUR DOWN LINE IT'S TOO LATE( THE TIME YOU THOUGHT YOU SAVED) , . SOME OF THEM ARE FROM RACKING NOT TAKING MY TIME , PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE IN THIS CRAFT, NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO , NO MATTER WHAT YOU SEE IF YOU ASK A MASTER WINEMAKER OR ANYONE WITH A SMALL WINERY OR ANYONE WITH GOOD WINE MAKING PRACTICES , . THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT SANITATION IS THE KEY ............ A YOU DO IN THE BEGINNING- AS YOU ARE IN THE END


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## rjb222 (Aug 6, 2012)

When I first talk to my customers I assume they are first timers. After I get to know them I will give them hints as to how clean they need to be. If they start off being lackadaisical then they will make a bad wine. I have had people with many wines come in and have a bad batch. It does not happen every time but it does happen. So when I talk to my customers cleaning is one step sanitation is another I always recommend a non rinse sanitizer. Even if the wine does not turn out bad from using no sanitizer every thing that is left behind effects the flavor. So do you need to be over the top no but be aware that every thing you do or don't do effects the final result.


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## Sudz (Aug 9, 2012)

Good sanitation technique can also be a blessing when things do go wrong. 

Like many of you I brew and make wine using much of the same equipment. I've never had a brew go bad but a few months back I noticed my wines were crashing at about 6 months. The hunt was on for the cause although I was fairly certain it was a bug in something.

Long story short, my Kmeta had lost it's strength setting on the shelf and since I wasn't measuring SO2, I didn't know it. I measure it now and this issue has been resolved but it did leave me with a bug in my system which continued to cause problems. Review of my sanitation process ruled out most everything involved. I replaced plastic and hoses and continued to search. I finally investigated my bottling bucket spigot and became concerned that I couldn't disassemble it for cleaning. Discovered from the forums that you can and should. When I broke down my spigot I was shocked at the crud I found inside between the body pieces.

Now most of you probably would say the spigot isn't a concern, just throw it in a solution of Kmeta for a soak which is what I had been doing for wines (iodophor for brew). I can't say for certain it was the cause of my problem, but I have three of these in various items and they all get torn down for cleaning now. 

My wines since then have been clean. 

I have always maintained a fairly intense sanitizing routine. Knowing this I was able to eliminate a number of potential areas which help in zeroing in on the spigot. Had I not been following good technique, finding the problem would have been significantly more challenging.


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## rjb222 (Aug 9, 2012)

Sudz said:


> Good sanitation technique can also be a blessing when things do go wrong.
> 
> Like many of you I brew and make wine using much of the same equipment. I've never had a brew go bad but a few months back I noticed my wines were crashing at about 6 months. The hunt was on for the cause although I was fairly certain it was a bug in something.
> 
> ...


You can never go wrong with what you are doing. If there Is a question at all sanitize. This is a good description of what I described previously in my post of what is left behind will effect the wine. Excellent work.


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## GreginND (Aug 9, 2012)

Yes. Case in point. Make sure everything is clean and you have proper SO2 in your wine.


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## bstnh1 (Aug 10, 2012)

In the overall scheme of things, the time good sanitation takes is miniscule compared to your overall time and effort involved in producing and bottling 6 gallons of wine. What's the point of going through all that effort and increasing your chances of having to pour it all down the drain 6 months later? After all, how long does it take to give a spoon, etc. a couple of squirts of KMeta or Starsan?


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## Marauderer (Aug 10, 2012)

Interesting thread. I have only made four batches of wine so far and everyone has turned out great. I always wash my equipment well after using it and then rinse with hot water before using it. I use my metabisul to sanitize and I don't think I am obsessed. I only use kits so far and really enjoy the results.


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## joeswine (Aug 11, 2012)

*Down the road*

As you make more batches, down the road you'll find the right way to do things has been handed down to us, from professionals and at times they do they do know what they're doing , that'sbwhy their profession.............. sometimes you follow have to follow the teachings. S


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## shanek17 (Aug 12, 2012)

joeswine said:


> As you make more batches, down the road you'll find the right way to do things has been handed down to us, from professionals and at times they do they do know what they're doing , that'sbwhy their profession.............. sometimes you follow have to follow the teachings. S



Who do you mean when you say professionals ? that's kind of a broad perspective for beer brewers. Although when I think of commercial beer brewers I think they really do need a different procedure for sanitation. If you consider how different it is for a large commercial brewer it makes sense to me. They have large batches worth thousands of dollars or more that are at stake, and they do not want to compromise that. Also their environment may be totally different from our own environment here as home brewers. At home I can easily wipe down my kitchen and give it a quick sanitizing and even after as I take care of my brew I can easily keep things clean. But in a large brewing building it may be harder to keep that much surface area clean and sanitized all the time... perhaps there are other factors involved, but I thought id put that in perspective, because we cant just do everything exactly the same as the professionals if the variables are different.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 12, 2012)

Just a note for all the K meta users. Most commercial wineries do not use K Meta to sanitize. They use a solution of Citric Acid. Cheaper and safer. 
Malvina


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## Runningwolf (Aug 12, 2012)

Malvina. when you say a solution of Citric Acid, are you talking just Citric Acid? I use a meta/citric solution that is about 50/50 of each.


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## shanek17 (Aug 12, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Just a note for all the K meta users. Most commercial wineries do not use K Meta to sanitize. They use a solution of Citric Acid. Cheaper and safer.
> Malvina



Can you tell us some more about this iv heard citric acid is powerful for home brewers. As the poster below mentioned id like to know how its mixed and if its simply citric acid. Can it be used within the wine or mead to protect from oxygen and kill the yeast? or is it strictly for sanitizing outside the wine/mead.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 12, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Malvina. when you say a solution of Citric Acid, are you talking just Citric Acid? I use a meta/citric solution that is about 50/50 of each.



Yes just Citric. You would be surprised how little K meta is used for cleaning and washing tanks and equipment. First is is not good for stainless and workers can't get into tanks and clean with it. And it is far more expensive. 

_Can it be used within the wine or mead to protect from oxygen and kill the yeast? or is it strictly for sanitizing outside the wine/mead. _


Citric Acid protects no more than Tartaric Acid. If I remember correctly it should not exceed 3/4 teaspoon per gallon as it can give a still wine a fizz and creates an artificial flavor. However in small amount it can freshen up a white wine. 
Malvina


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## GreginND (Aug 13, 2012)

As with anything used as a sanitizer, be careful that you don't allow it to get into your wine in any appreciable amounts. Not only will citric acid increase the acidity, but if you are doing an ML fermentation it will be metabolized to produce more diacetyl which may give unwanted aromas and flavors.


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## Marauderer (Aug 13, 2012)

I have always followed the directions on my 4 megar batches and they have aged great. I have been wanting to branch out, so to speak, and try a batch using just the mead concentrate and add everything else.


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## joeswine (Aug 14, 2012)

*sanatation,what's the meaning*

 this is a subject unto itself and needs to broken down into three separate meanings---sanitation,---cleaning---and sterilization---these are the actual steps we use in the industry to safe guard the wine,not all agree on the correct method or the means to achieve the end result,but the net result is the same,to create a healthy wine you need to start out right.

 if you care to follow me on (when good wines gone bad ) cleaning up, I will discuss the steps as I see them and the products we use to help us get there...

when good wines gone bad (cleaning up )


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## GreginND (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks Joe. Right on. There are definitely different topics here.

In my original reply I did not mean to imply that we should not sanitize anything. I was responding to the original poster's question about whether or not we go overboard and is there a happy medium. My opinion is that we should use common sense.


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## joeswine (Aug 14, 2012)

*Off the beaton path*

Thanks for taking a look, when good wines gone bad was developed ,is really the culmination my own experiences and that of the people around me in winemaking industry ,whether their home winemakers or some of my friends ,a couple of my associates who own actual wineries .

 Now I'll start,( when go wines gone bad)

* Cleaning up *


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## troutstix (Aug 19, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Just a note for all the K meta users. Most commercial wineries do not use K Meta to sanitize. They use a solution of Citric Acid. Cheaper and safer.
> Malvina



Hi Malvina,
Do you know what dilution ratio they are using to make a Citric Acid sanitizing solution? Thanks in advance!
ts


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 19, 2012)

troutstix said:


> Hi Malvina,
> Do you know what dilution ratio they are using to make a Citric Acid sanitizing solution? Thanks in advance!
> ts



I am hearing 4-8 tablespoons per gallon. I use a tablespoon of k meta as well. It is very strong and you have to be careful not to inhale. 
Malvina


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## rjb222 (Aug 19, 2012)

Citric acid in it's self is not a sanitizing solution. The addition of citric acid to Sodium Metabisulfite increases the strength of the sodium metabisulfite. It also shortens the life time use of the sodium metabisulfite. When mixing a proper solution of citric acid and sodium metabisulfite use 1/4 tsp. Sodium metabisulfite 1 Tsp citric acid or a multiplication of those base amounts. One needs to respect the use of chemicals while use properly they are helpful and harmless used incorrectly you can make some thing that is undrinkable or worse poisonous.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 20, 2012)

rjb222 said:


> Citric acid in it's self is not a sanitizing solution. The addition of citric acid to Sodium Metabisulfite increases the strength of the sodium metabisulfite. It also shortens the life time use of the sodium metabisulfite. When mixing a proper solution of citric acid and sodium metabisulfite use 1/4 tsp. Sodium metabisulfite 1 Tsp citric acid or a multiplication of those base amounts. One needs to respect the use of chemicals while use properly they are helpful and harmless used incorrectly you can make some thing that is undrinkable or worse poisonous.


What you say is the conventional wisdom of Amateur Winemakers yet if you talk to a variety of commercial winemakers Citric is used exclusively. And there are reasons why. Citric does not produce toxic fumes and is safer for Stainless. It is much more economical. And in the proper strength will kill bacteria. Imagine getting in closed top tank to clean it with a solution of K meta. Not going to happen much less with a solution you describe.
Malvina


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## jensmith (Aug 22, 2012)

Question. How many of you rinse off your equipment with tap water after you sanatise it? I keep finding myself trying to rinse off the nasty sanatizers before letting my equipment touch the wine. Even though the directions say NOT to! Especisly at botteling time. Although with the cambdon I don't have that erge as much as with the star san. I know I nuts, is anyone else?


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## vacuumpumpman (Aug 22, 2012)

I do not rinse as I have well water and no clorine to kill off any bacteria - and I would be defeating the purpose of santazing

I will also add 1 tsp of equal amounts of sulfite and citric or tartric acid for my solution = the acid will drop the ph from water which os 7.0 to wine levels aprox 3.5 and the sulfite will be much more efficient. 

Question ? 
If I dont add acid and rince my bottles with the label - which is 2 oz to 1 gallon of water. Once I add my wine to those bottles with all that residue - will that increase my sulfite levels in my wine that is in the bottles ?


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## rjb222 (Aug 22, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> What you say is the conventional wisdom of Amateur Winemakers yet if you talk to a variety of commercial winemakers Citric is used exclusively. And there are reasons why. Citric does not produce toxic fumes and is safer for Stainless. It is much more economical. And in the proper strength will kill bacteria. Imagine getting in closed top tank to clean it with a solution of K meta. Not going to happen much less with a solution you describe.
> Malvina


 Thats funny I was just at a convention at Niagra at the lake. I asked the head vintner for RJS this exact question. And the answer I was given was exactly what I originaly posted. She Just started with RJS and has extensive comercail experiance and said that there were certain things that were very different with kit wine making with the chemestry used and the law that forces kit juice to be pasturized. Very interesting conference indeed.


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## rjb222 (Aug 23, 2012)

The only reference i can find on a commercial site comes from The Vintners Vault. Here is the cut and paste.

Chlorinated TSP is used for sanitation of stainless steel items, floors and most plastics, the typical dosage is 1 cup per 5 gallons and must be rinsed with a citric acid solution to neutralize the residue.

For use in sanitation of all equipment, and surfaces inside and outside of a winery. (Not for use with barrels) To be used in conjunction with Citric Acid. Using a five step process, a surface must be rinsed, then the TSP solution, another rinse, a Citric Acid solution, and finalized with a rinse. The surface is now sanitized.

The chlorinated TSP is the sanitizer the citric acid is the neutralizer.
I went to LDCarelson,Grape Stompers and several others none recommend using citric acid on it's own as a sanitizer. They had different concentrations of mixture and on the Grape stompers site they outright said there was many different solution mixture concentrations there was a book quoted the had two different concentrations listed in the same book. Each sit though did list a basic sanitizing solution of 1 part potassium or sodium metabisulfite to 4 parts citric acid.


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## spaniel (Aug 25, 2012)

No experience with commercial-scale wineries, but on the dairy farm we used phosphoric acid solution on the stainless steel equipment and pipelines.

For winemaking, I've never been the anal sort. As has been said, you are not pasteurizing the grapes as they are mashed so starting with 100% sterile equipment is a waste of time. The goal is to get the mashed grapes sulfated and into active fermentation in an expedient fashion...if you dilly-dally long enough, the bacteria WILL catch up with you, despite how you sanitize your equipment.

Having made >1500gal of wine in 5gal batches over the past decade, I have never lost a batch to spoilage. I wash equipment with soap/water, cap clean carbuoys after cleaning and rinse again before use. Most equipment is simply soap/water washed after use. Corks are soaked in campden tablet solution before use. Bottles are typically soaked in bleach water (helps with label removal), thoroughly rinsed, then the mouth covered with tinfoil before putting in the oven on low heat to dry out. During bottling, the foil serves as a temporary cap after filling before corking as a batch.

The one thing I have bucked conventional wisdom on is primary fermentation. I probably seal mine off from air more than most people. Needed? Probably not, many get away without it. However, as a biochemist and cell biologist I can't help myself.


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## Sudz (Aug 26, 2012)

Good discussion on an important subject...

Some of my buddies and I were kicking this subject around and a specific area came up for which none of us had an answer.

Assume for the moment that the rule of "nothing touches the wine which hasn't been sanitized" is valid and practiced by most specifically after fermentation. Our debate was surrounding the use of your fingers in managing things which utilized sanitized implements. 

Is a hand considered sanitary if it has been in a sanitizing solution? Are you placing your wine at risk if you grab something which is associated with the wine? Obviously a bare hand would be a infection risk, but what about one that's been sanitized?

What say ye?


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## Bartman (Aug 26, 2012)

Well, I would say this is getting a little overzealous, since you could also consider airborne germs (yeast, bacteria, etc.) to be floating around constantly as well. But being reasonable, a sanitized hand stays sanitized until it touches something that has not been sanitized. And 'sanitizing' your hand is the best you can do, since the means of sterilizing at home (boiling, burning or chemical agents like Clorox) are not something you want to do to your bare hands.

As an academic discussion, I'd say a sanitized bare hand is safe to touch your equipment with as long as your hand touches no un-sanitized surfaces (countertops, plumbing fixtures, your pant leg, etc.).


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