# Huge score or major headache



## sjo (Oct 8, 2012)

A 5 year old 1 acre vineyard with 650 vines.

I called a local lady to try and buy some grapes. She said between black rot other pests and birds she ended up with nothing. She then asked if I would be interested in her vineyard. 
She would like someone to take it over and continue to operate it organically and in return would like some of the fruit or finished product. She never got to the wine making stage.
I have been looking at planting a small vineyard for myself. This is quite larger than I was intending. We just have to decide if we can find enough time to make it work. On the plus side my kids worked there this summer a couple days and would be a big help. On the negative side , all the work going into someone elses vineyard.
There are 4 varieties of grapes. St Croix, Marquette, Frontenac and Edleweiss.
My main question is how much harder is a vineyard grown organically?
Any major concerns I should be looking at?
Thanks
Scott


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## Runningwolf (Oct 8, 2012)

Scott I cannot help you but Rich (grapeman) will be able to assist in answering your question.


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## BobR (Oct 9, 2012)

I have to agree with Dan on this. Rich (grapeman) is the go to guy when it comes to growing grapes, but if someone made me that offer and I had help, I'd jump on the idea of being able to mess with some grapes. There are probably a lot of "what if" questions that I'd want answers to, but if she is above board and seems like an honest person, then give it a try. Hopefully, you can always walk away if it gets to be too much, or you end up investing large amounts of your own money. It seems like that you know her, which makes it better than a total stranger making you the offer.


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## grapeman (Oct 9, 2012)

You make no mention of where you are so I have to assume it is at least cold and probably moist to wet where you are. Young vineyards should be relatively free of disease pests such as blackrot. For her to lose the whole crop tells me there is a real disease pressure there and it will be an EXTREME challenge to go fully organic. That is always the dream and desire of beginning farmers until they get a reality check of no crop, especially when it comes to grapes.

I would let her know you might be interested if she would at least let you spray the vineyard using an Integrated Pest Management approach or IPM. With that you constantly monitor for disease and insect pest problems and only spray when they reach an action threshold. That way you minimize pesticide use (either chemical or truly organic). The point is you need to spray something when the problem gets to a certain level. Black rot needs an effective protective fungicide application on a regular basis for at least the first part of the year until cluster closure stage when the grapes become immune to further black rot infections. 

Take it from there and if she agrees, then go into it with the assumption you will be doing a LOT of work.


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## sjo (Oct 9, 2012)

Is it possible to judge the health of a vineyard this time of year when the fruit is gone and most of the leaves have fallen?
SJO


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## UBB (Oct 9, 2012)

grapeman said:


> go into it with the assumption you will be doing *a LOT of work*.



needs repeating.


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## Jah_Son (Oct 9, 2012)

Do it. 

If you ever want to grow grapes, you'll never get a better chance than this to learn. Go into it to learn, knowing you can't do any worse!


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## winemom (Oct 9, 2012)

Don't want to hijack the thread, but this has me wondering: how much wine will 650 vines produce (assuming the vines were healthy)?


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## grapeman (Oct 9, 2012)

sjo the vineyard should not have the leaves fallen yet so that tells me there was a downy mildew problems likely also. You need a spray program in place in order to get a decent crop which leads me to the following response:

winemom to answer your question, the varieties planted can yield between 500 and 1000 gallons for 650 vines if they are healthy.

You will need something to do with all these grapes or drink a lot of wine!


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Oct 9, 2012)

Go with it! the worst thing that can happen is you walk away, can't do that if you grow your own. Going organic with a problem vineyard is a hard pull, you need fungiside reguardless. Pestisde can be done organicaly, skip the herbiside and mow a lot. 

From now to your next step is do lots of reading. Jan/Feb/March.. you will purne, if it had not been purned in a few years this spring will be a lot of work. Don't be afraid to over prune, it may take a year extra to get to full potential but it will be worth it. 

As soon as buds break begin spraying the fungiside. 
My biggest issue with my vineyard is mowing and mowing and mowing. 
If you have a drought year like we had here in the midwest, watering may be an issue depending on how old the plants are and how dry it gets, young plants will need water. You may be OK there. 
Bugs, mostly jap beatles. there are organic pestisides just check into them, if you have the ok to go non organic, sevin works well.
Don't forget to mow. 
in the fall, bird netting and waiting for harvest. 

Enjoy!


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## winemom (Oct 9, 2012)

grapeman said:


> You will need something to do with all these grapes or drink a lot of wine!



We have a few wineries in our area (Finger Lakes of NY) that have a side business of selling fresh grape juice to home winemakers. The OP may have no trouble getting rid of juice.


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## derunner (Oct 9, 2012)

What would be a fair split for something like this. In farming a 50/50 split is common if the land owner puts up half the expenses and does none of the work. 3/5 for the farmer if they put up all he expenses. Of course with grapes, the plants are already there and owned by the land owner, so it is the labor, fertlizing? control measures, and harvesting.


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## sjo (Oct 10, 2012)

Brew and wine- yes, I figure I have a lot to read in the next few months. I also had to make sure my wife and kids were on board as they will be helping out quite a bit. The vineyard hasn't been totally neglected although time was an issue for the owner. Pruning has been kept up . I think the biggest issue is getting will be getting a handle on the pest and black rot. She did have what she described as a decent crop this year considering the early problems, however she lost that to the birds as she has no netting.

Grapeman - You said the leaves should not have fallen yet. Would that be true for central Minnesota? I have noticed some other vineyards around with dried up and falling leaves while others still appear green.

I do have a question regarding water. The vineyard is located a couple hundred feet from a lake. I was planning on pumping lake water for our needs. Would the use of lake water be a problem for the sprays?


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## grapeman (Oct 10, 2012)

It is possible for the leaves to have fallen in central Mn if you have had hard freezes below 25-26 degrees F. If not, the leaves should still be on the vine although a few begin to fall normally. Using lake water should not be a problem, but it may not be needed in an established vineyard unless you have a drought.


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## sjo (Oct 10, 2012)

Spent a little more time looking at the plants and have ytaken a few pictures. If anyone has suggestions on what I am looking at please don't hesitate to respond. 1pict it appears that something is digging at base of vine. quite a few vines have been dug at but doesn't appear to have damaged them. What would it be?


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## BobR (Oct 11, 2012)

sjo,

Sorry, can't be of any help on your grape problem. Whenever I have a problem, I always hope that Grapeman will come to the rescue. It's nice to know that there are people out there like him who really know there stuff. The digging and the hole on the other hand looks like voles. If that hole goes into the ground, then I would bet you have a vole population. If it's just digging, then maybe a squirrel. Believe me, I have been fighting a losing battle with both all year. Voles have the place destroyed. I don't know how much mouse posion I have put in those holes and they just keep multiplying. They are in the grapes, and all over the yard. For years, we had a population of chipmunks around here and we all lived in peace, but for some reason, the chipmunks have been gone for about a year and these worthless voles have taken over. They will dig holes that will end up being 8 to 10 inches across and the ground just keeps sinking where ever they dig. Then they have all of these runs/trails all over the place. I'd hate to think about just how many I actually have. Last winter, I had a hawk that hung around, but I haven't seen it in a while. 

Good luck!


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## grapeman (Oct 11, 2012)

Nice looking vineyard to start!

The second picture is just showing some foliar phylloxera- not a big deal. The first picture looks like mildew got it. From the rest of the pictures, I would say you got some heavy freezes, so the leaves just dropped naturally- a good thing! My big clue there is that a good share of the trees leaves have dropped also- only the oaks left which is normal.

I think you would be alright going with the vineyard - just investigate a spray program for next year.

Good luck!


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## sjo (Oct 11, 2012)

Bob, I never heard of a Vole. Had to do a search to find if they were even in Minnesota. According to the MN Dnr we have them. Maybe the field mice I have been seeing are Voles. All the holes dug are right at the base of the vine but did not appear to harm the vines. 
Grapeman thanks for the response on the leaves. The one I was most concerned with is not a problem. Thats good to hear.
I was doing some reading and found some conflicting info. Some say that mulch is a good place for Black Rot to exist. And not to use it if you are prone to Black Rot. Most all other places I read recommend using mulch. Is mulch an issue? All the rows have a good amount of it.
Is Neem oil adequate for a spray program in an Organic Vineyard? Is there a better option? Will using lake water have an ill effect on a spraying program?
Thanks
Scott


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## grapeman (Oct 11, 2012)

An organic vineyard is going to be very hard for you in your climate. Neem oil is better than nothing, but likely will not give enough control, especially for black rot. 

Mulch is not bad, but can be a haven for moles, mice and voles which can chew the bark off the vines and girdle them (causing a slow death).

Again, lake water will do no harm.


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## BobR (Oct 11, 2012)

sjo,

I'm not sure, but I want to say that the vole and the field mouse might be one in the same. If not, they are a close relative. If they are in the grapes, then I'd bet they are eating the roots. Just a completely worthless little rodent that will give you BIG headaches. Buy some mole pellets, or bags of mouse poison and put some down each hole. From what I read on them, once they figure out what is killing them, they will stop taking the bait, so you must have a plan B. Over the summer, I was cutting the grass around my vines and I had a huge black snake laying there, he had to be five feet easy. I cut the grass all around it and it didn't even move. When I got close, it had a couple of small lumps inside of it. If he was eating voles/mice then he could stay as long as he wanted.


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## blumentopferde (Oct 18, 2012)

grapeman said:


> Nice looking vineyard to start!
> 
> The second picture is just showing some foliar phylloxera- not a big deal. The first picture looks like mildew got it. From the rest of the pictures, I would say you got some heavy freezes, so the leaves just dropped naturally- a good thing! My big clue there is that a good share of the trees leaves have dropped also- only the oaks left which is normal.
> 
> ...



grapeman, may i ask you why you would regard foliar pyhlloxera as "not a big deal"? I always thought that phylloxera would be about the worst thing to have in a wineyard!


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## grapeman (Oct 19, 2012)

The foliar phylloxera mainly affects the leaves. It is more cosmetic than a true damage to the vines unless it occurs in huge numbers. It is the root feeding form that damages the vines more. Either way, hybrids have a built in resistance to damage as most have American varieties of vitis riparia in their breeding. Unless you get the majority of leaves with 25 or more lesions on them, the damage to the photosynthetic capacity is not bad enough to warrant spraying.


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## blumentopferde (Oct 19, 2012)

thanks for the clarification!


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## BobR (Nov 5, 2012)

sjo,

I know that it has only been about one month, but did you ever decide to take over that 1 acre vineyard?


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## sjo (Nov 6, 2012)

Bob,
I have spent a bit of time doing some research both here and elsewhere. We do intend to give it a try if the owner is willing to give some consesions to the total organic plan if that is not working.
SJO


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## BobR (Nov 6, 2012)

Well good luck Scott, hopefully it will work out. Keep us posted!


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## sjo (Mar 1, 2013)

Well were set to go. Tomorrow we will start pruning. A lot of reading surfing and a grape conference has taught us well. My wife is very excited about this and has wanted to get out all week to start pruning. My kids seem eager but we'll see how they feel a couple hours into it. Thanks to the posters in the forum who have lent their knowledge. And a special thanks to Grapeman for all his wisdom. We hope and pray you pull through healthy and happy.
Scott


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## grapeman (Mar 2, 2013)

sjo the important thing for the kids is to make the work a fun job. If they enjoy it, they will do it willingly. If you make it a chore, these won't offer to help again.

Don't worry about me. I have been doing pretty well this last couple weeks. Monday I go in again for 2 days of chemo. Then after a while we do a scan to see how th lymphoma is responding to the chemo. This weekend is hecktic with meetings and such. I just need to avoid sick people as much as possible.


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