# First time winemaker - carboy size / brand ?



## jburtner (Apr 19, 2016)

Hi, I am new to wine making but I brewed beer for several years which was great fun. My girl and I enjoy drinking various commercial wines regularly so I thought I would pick up the fermentation habit again to see if we can figure out how match the quality.

I am looking to start off very simple with a number of straightforward kit runs before customizing too much.

I am considering a startup kit of a couple carboys and a primary fermentation vat/bucket with some thermometers, hydro, and a siphon. My local shop has 7.9G primaries which should work well with the various kits. Not sure whether I should go with 5g, 6g, or 6.5g carboys though or something like a wide mouth fermonster. When I brewed beer I preferred a larger carboy and the wide mouth does sound nice for cleaning.

I plan to bulk age in the carboys so I can put off on purchasing bottles and a corker for several months and just get more carboys when I start up another batch then cycle them through new batches whenever I start bottling.

Any thoughts on carboy size, specialized carboys, demijohns, etc??

Also wondering what y'all use for water sources - I wouldn't think that city water would be the way to go but am very interested in your thoughts since it makes up a significant portion of the final product.

Thanks and any advice is welcome and appreciated.

Cheers,
jonathan


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## wineforfun (Apr 19, 2016)

When I started I purchased a 1 gal. equipment kit. I went this route as I wasn't sure this was an endeavor I was going to continue doing. With that said, it is now 4 yrs. later. 
I started off making 1-2 gal. batches as I like to experiment with different recipes, tweaking, etc. Now a lot of people on here will say it is just as easy to make 6 gal. as 2 gal. While that is true, you have to have something to do with all that wine. We only drink 2 bottles per week so I would have way too much wine around. You can give it away, as I do with some, but for me, I have found 2 gal. batches work best. You will find what works best for you.
I would say to start out, you should get a 6 gal. and a 5 gal. carboy. Reason is, when you rack down from 6 gal., you will lose some wine due to sediment settlement and that is where the 5 gal. will come in handy. 
Also, you should always have 1 gal. carboys around for either a) experimenting or b) racking down.

As far as city water, as long as you don't live in Flint, MI, you may be ok. I always use my tap water and have no issues. I don't know your water quality where you live.


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## DoctorCAD (Apr 19, 2016)

You MUST match the carboy to the kit size, most kits are 6 gallons and a few are 5 gallons and there are specialty 3 gallon kits.

6 is the most common by far. your rotation of carboys method is exactly correct, most of us rarely have an empty.

You wont need to buy bottles, just drink 30 bottles of wine between now and when you want to bottle and you are set.

Water is far less important in kit wines, as long as you can drink the water, it is fine. Brita or some other OTC filter can help. If you buy high-end (expensive) kits, they contain much more juice and require much less water, so water quality doesn't matter as much.

Look up "extended timeline for kit wines" and follow the 6 month schedule, but follow all of the other kit directions on your first couple of batches, you won't be stuck with undrinkable wine and you will get the hang of it pretty quick. Oh, just as a passing note, white wines finish up much quicker than reds. Some whites will be perfectly drinkable in 3 months, some reds can take 3 years.

Enjoy the fact that you don't have to fret over time or schedules like you do with beer.


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## bkisel (Apr 19, 2016)

Welcome to the forum!

I'd start with any of the 10L kits from WinExpert or RJ Spagnols. These will result in ~6gal/23L of finished wine. I'd highly recommend using spring water. Good luck!


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 19, 2016)

Welcome!

Definitely go with 6 gallon carboys, as has been said. The 7.9 gallon fermenters will handle all your kits, including those with grape packs. As far as water goes, if it is drinkable, it's OK. Most kits have you start with a small amount of hot water. For that, I use water from the tap, then the remainder is spring water. One thing you don't want to use is distilled water.


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## jburtner (Apr 19, 2016)

Thank you so much for the replies! We can probably go through as many as 500 bottles a year with personal tastings as well as gifts/etc.. - maybe not that many... Of course that's currently commercial offerings - typically 30 - 60 in the cellar. Looking forward to adding my home made offerings to the cellar even if some of them need to sit for a couple years.

Sounds like 6 gallon carboy is the way to go so thanks for the advice - It's very much appreciated! I see this turning into an evolving "thing" ha ha 

Cheers,
jonathan


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## NorCal (Apr 19, 2016)

I have all sizes. I'd trade my 6.5's for 5.0, simply because they are too heavy for me to safely lift when full.


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## cpfan (Apr 19, 2016)

I always try to plan to have one extra carboy. That will be used to rack a wine into. Then clean the first carboy and you have a carboy for your next racking.

So three wines on the go means four carboys.

Steve


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## jburtner (Apr 19, 2016)

cpfan said:


> So three wines on the go means four carboys.
> Steve



But then we have an empty carboy AND an empty primary.....


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## jburtner (Apr 19, 2016)

So when "racking down" and "topping up" how much loss may be typical and what do you typically "top up" with to get back up to ~1" below bung?

Thanks!
-jonathan


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## bkisel (Apr 19, 2016)

jburtner said:


> So when "racking down" and "topping up" how much loss may be typical and what do you typically "top up" with to get back up to ~1" below bung?
> 
> Thanks!
> -jonathan



With my kits that don't have oak or grape skins I'd guess around 500-750ML. Some kits will say you can top up/off with water but I'd not use more than say 500ML for a 23L kit. My preference is to top off with the same or similar wine even if that means buying a commercial wine just for that purpose.


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## wineforfun (Apr 19, 2016)

I agree with Bill, I always top up with either a like wine I have on hand or buy a $10 bottle of commercial wine, like what I am making.
I normally have to top up with between 1-2 bottles of wine through the whole process of a 6 gal. kit.


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## cpfan (Apr 19, 2016)

jburtner said:


> But then we have an empty carboy AND an empty primary.....


Typical timings...one week in a primary, several months in carboys. An empty primary doesn't bother me. Heck I have four primaries...one for beer, two for wine, and the fourth is a bit scratched so it's for storing stuff.

Steve


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## Dhaynes (Apr 23, 2016)

Sounds like you've gotten great advice on picking out your equipment. Now you need to start picking your wine kits. I recently had part one of a two part article on selecting a wine kit published on line that you might find helpful. Part two should be out in a week or so. Here is the link. http://winemakersacademy.com/choosing-a-wine-kit-part-1-owerview/


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## Natrix (Apr 23, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Definitely go with 6 gallon carboys, as has been said. The 7.9 gallon fermenters will handle all your kits, including those with grape packs. As far as water goes, if it is drinkable, it's OK. Most kits have you start with a small amount of hot water. For that, I use water from the tap, then the remainder is spring water. One thing you don't want to use is distilled water.



I'm curious, why not using distilled water ?


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 23, 2016)

Natrix said:


> I'm curious, why not using distilled water ?



It lacks the minerals that you'll find in other water. The yeasties like those minerals.


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## Natrix (Apr 23, 2016)

:< I was worried if I'd miss something else...
I have already read that on the internet, but too late since i've done 4 kit when I find this info. But so far so good, I only use that kind of water at home and never get any problem with my kit or yeast starting. Maybe the water I use are not very well distilled ? 
But for now, I have my 6th wine kit on fermenter and after 24h, it's bubbling like crazy.
In as much as that does not change the taste.


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## richmke (Apr 23, 2016)

GLASS Carboy, 6 to 7 gallons.

I have heard the glass wide mouth are not ready for prime time (breaks too easily). In any case, for long-term aging, you want the regular carboy mouth to minimize air infiltration.

Why glass? Lots of pros/cons between glass and plastic. The one difference is: All-in-one Wine Pump. If you do any serious amount of wine making, you will eventually purchase the all-in-one wine pump. That works on vacuum transfer, and the plastic carboys can't handle the vacuum.

I like the 6.5 to 7 gallon carboys for secondary fermentation, and sometimes the first racking after that. Any kit with an f-pack is more than 6 gallons. The extra room allows you to add the f-pack to the entire kit. Let it sit for 2 weeks, and then rack to a 6 gallon carboy for long-term storage (with some extra in smaller bottles).

Having the larger carboy is also good for the periodic rackings. It allows for one continuous racking without stopping. Critical to avoid disturbing the sediment at the bottom of the carboy. Then I clean the original carboy, and rack it back.

So, in summary: two 7-gallon carboys, the rest are 6 gallon. A few 5 gallons are nice too.

You use the 5 gallons towards the end of aging. After you have racked a few times, you might be below 6 gallons. To eliminate the head space, I rack to the 5 gallon, and put the rest in various size glass bottles (1/2 gallon, 1.5 liter, 750 ml, 350 ml).


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## Stevelaz (Apr 25, 2016)

I started making wine last year and started with a 6 gallon bucket and a better bottle (pet plastic) carboy, actually 2 of them for racking. Love the light weight to lift up and down. Very happy with them. As for topping up i read about and used this: clear marbles! I bought 5 or 6 bags from franks. Steralize them and drop em in to top up. Works great. I also used a 7.8 gallon bucket for the primary for that batch.

This year im now doing 3 6 gallon buckets (18 gal). Im trying out a 15 gallon demijohn a friend of mine let me use. I also bought a 3 gallon better bottle for the remaining 3 gallons that i will use to top off the demijohn, and then top off with the marbles in the 3 gallon. Im doing the primary now in a 30 gallon barrel that same friend also borrowed me....


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## cintipam (Apr 25, 2016)

Hi Stevelaz 

jumping in here to make certain you checked those marbles for lead content before using them. Cheap marbles made in China etc often have traces of lead. I know there are good quality marbles available that some folks use, but I don't know where they buy them. Of course if you use marbles be really really careful when putting them into the carboy. Carboys take a lot of abuse, and every little tap is a possible microfracture that can longterm lead to a carboy "suddenly" breaking without warning.

Pam in cinti


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## Stevelaz (Apr 26, 2016)

They are not really 'marbles" with the colors in them they are the glass clear decorative vase fillers that can also be used in fish tanks ect.. no lead. I use them in my plastic better bottle to top off, i do not think i will be putting them in my glass demijohn tho...


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## garymc (Apr 26, 2016)

I like having an assortment of sizes of carboys including a few one gallon jugs like Carlo Rossi wine or apple cider comes in. Well, apple cider used to come in a gallon glass jug. There is another wine, I forget the brand that comes in a jug that's about 3 quarts. I'm talking about jugs that will take a rubber stopper with airlock. I make wine with different kinds of fruit I grow or get from others, so I never know how big a batch I'll get. I have 6.5, 6, 5, and 3 gallon carboys as well as the jugs, so I can split a batch up and then recombine or re-split as the racking goes. Several people are talking about kits. You said you'd start with kits, not a bad idea, but if you move from kits to using fruit or going to a vineyard and picking grapes, then flexibility is helpful. When you get a corker, get a floor corker unless somebody gives you a hand corker for free, which is what they're worth. Oh, I forgot, I have a 14 gallon demijohn I used once and then noticed a hairline crack about 6 inches long along it's equator. They are very thin walled in that area. They're also not recommended for use with a vacuum pump because of that. Speaking of vacuum pumps, if you think you're going to stay with it and do any kind of volume, eventually you'll want one. I use the Allinone and like it. 
Regarding tapwater, distilled water, etc. People recommend against chlorinated water from your tap, but you can let it sit out a while and the chlorine will dissipate or heat it on the stove and get rid of the chlorine quickly. I'm not convinced the amount of chlorine in tapwater makes that much difference anyway. When you make bread with yeast, do you use tapwater? Similarly, distilled water not having minerals - your fruit has minerals and you use yeast nutrient, so the minute amount of minerals in spring water or tapwater strike me as being of questionable benefitl.


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## brewbush (Apr 26, 2016)

First. I use all 7.9 buckets for all primary fermentation. For degassing and adding chems and f-packs I have 2 6.5 gallon carboys. This allows me to use my wine pump/vacuum to degas and have enough headspace. 
From there you will need a few 5 gallon carboys (all glass for the carboys btw). After degassing you need the 5 gallon size to rerack to and keep topped up. 


Next. I buy a set of 4-6 1/2 gallon and gallon glass jugs to hold the remaining wine on transfers. I get them from a place online. A set of 6 comes for 2-4$ per unit. 


I also would have a case of ez-cap wine bottles. This is for leftovers that do not fill up a 1/2 gallon jug. 


All these are one time purchases and will last forever. 


For water I use reverse osmosis water for wine and tap hot water initially to dissolve bentonite. I occasionally put in 1 tsp of fermaid k for yeast nutrients if the wine kit has a large percentage of tap water.

All buckets are the same I use for beer. I have plastic carboys for beer secondaries. Wine glass because of the vacuum.


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## jburtner (May 1, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the helpful hints. I started with a couple 6g glass carb's, a 7.9g fermentation bucket, heater belt (seems to keep it @ ~75F), auto-siphon, aluminum racking cane, 8' tubing, ph strips, hydro, and some thermometers and brushes... An eclipse chardonnay and pinot kit. Started the pinot last night and it's already making CO2 so well on the way!

Will keep updated and thinking about what to start next after these two kits are racked and bulk ageing... 

Cheers!
-jonathan


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## Irish (May 18, 2016)

Hi there,
Just a link to a similar kit I used for my first few brews, to see if I might enjoy the new hobby, and the results were quite good
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/1_Gallon_Equipment_Only_Starter_Kit.html


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