# need Mead educational



## tonyt (Jun 29, 2014)

I know nothing about Mead, ask me about winemaking and I will bore you for hours. My adult nephew wants to learn about making and tasting mead. Where should I send him, what can he read.


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## warmuthj (Jun 29, 2014)

Search for Joam joes ancient orange mead recipe here. Start a gallon batch of that exactly how it directs. Then read up on mead. I suggest this because from day one to first decent sip is 6 months.


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## seth8530 (Jun 29, 2014)

Actually, the new quick mead on the block is BOMM. Which is used a belgian trappist yeast I believe and end up kind of dry.

If you want a whole lot of mead info, the gotmead forums is a nice place.


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## byathread (Jun 29, 2014)

Have him pick up a copy of The Compleat Meadmaker by Ken Schramm (helluva nice guy, and he makes fantastic meads). Also, I'll second the Gotmead forums, they are top notch.


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## BernardSmith (Jun 29, 2014)

Ken Schramm, is I think, considered one of the experts on mead making. The Compleat Meadmaker is very readable and clear to novice wine and meadmakers 

The one thing that is never very clear to me, however, is whether mead makers use large quantities of honey because the flavor is too thin if you used a quantity of honey that would result in a mead with a normal ABV (say 12 percent) or whether they choose to use a great deal of honey because they believe that mead should approach stratospheric levels of alcohol, so rather than use, say 2.5 - 3 lbs of honey, many meads discussed in Gotmead use 3-4 lbs /gallon (one pound of honey will increase the gravity in one gallon by about .040). This results in either a very sweet mead (with the yeast dying of alcohol poisoning) or meads of very high alcohol content if the yeast survives. The problem exists, I think, because the very same material that is providing the flavor is providing the sugar and so the alcohol.


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## seth8530 (Jun 29, 2014)

Eh, I would not say all meads are done sky high sugar. I make all of mine dry. I think the reason why you see sky high meads is because their are quite a few people who like the idea of a super strong mead for some reason. Just like some people here try to make 18% ABV wines from ec1118 as their normal drinker.


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## SouthernChemist (Jun 29, 2014)

BernardSmith said:


> Ken Schramm, is I think, considered one of the experts on mead making. The Compleat Meadmaker is very readable and clear to novice wine and meadmakers
> 
> The one thing that is never very clear to me, however, is whether mead makers use large quantities of honey because the flavor is too thin if you used a quantity of honey that would result in a mead with a normal ABV (say 12 percent) or whether they choose to use a great deal of honey because they believe that mead should approach stratospheric levels of alcohol, so rather than use, say 2.5 - 3 lbs of honey, many meads discussed in Gotmead use 3-4 lbs /gallon (one pound of honey will increase the gravity in one gallon by about .040). This results in either a very sweet mead (with the yeast dying of alcohol poisoning) or meads of very high alcohol content if the yeast survives. The problem exists, I think, because the very same material that is providing the flavor is providing the sugar and so the alcohol.



Some people seem to assume that mead should always be strong just like some people assume that mead should always be rather sweet.

I personally have had better results when I make mead with a similar thought process to making a drier white wine. My problem with meads I have had from other people is that they suffer from being so sweet that it is sickening, so strongly flavored by an adjunct (fruit, spices, etc.) that you cannot even taste the honey component, or too hot. Quality of honey is pretty important, too. I think sometimes people use more honey because what they have is of a lower quality.


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## byathread (Jun 30, 2014)

BernardSmith said:


> The one thing that is never very clear to me, however, is whether mead makers use large quantities of honey because the flavor is too thin if you used a quantity of honey that would result in a mead with a normal ABV (say 12 percent) or whether they choose to use a great deal of honey because they believe that mead should approach stratospheric levels of alcohol...



A couple things here. First, lots of people like sweet meads. Its much easier to make sweet meads than sweet wines. Also, I believe its much easier to make decent sweet mead than decent dry mead (as the residual sweetness can cover some flaws). For me, I find my traditional dry meads are best around 14% otherwise they can come off a bit thin (even though I often oak and sur lie/battonage my drys as well). Even though this is a bit higher than traditional dry wines I find that meads perhaps hide a higher ABV better. Maybe not, I certainly enjoy some new world wines in this range that still come off without being hot. I think the magic in good mead is managing fermentation. If you have a clean fermentation (this means proper rehydration of yeast, aeration and stepped nutrient additions), good flavor density, and balance you can pull off a good dry mead.

For the record, I make mostly dry and some off-dry meads. Years ago I made lots of sweeter meads. These were usually popular but I gave most of it away (as I found it wasn't really my taste). That's something else about meads, though ancient, in the modern world there is no specific framework of styles for meads (unlike wine and beer), and far fewer commercial examples so I found it took me quite a while longer to determine what I liked in the mead world - mostly dry meads, cysers, melomels.


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## Bob1016 (Jun 30, 2014)

I would agree with the thin taste to most average strength meads (11-13abv), especially dry ones. I have a bunch of varietal traditional bulk aging in the 12.5-13abv range (depending on method of calculation) and they are perfect, medium bodied table meads; but they all got 6+mos of sur lie with frequent battonage, a good does of tannin and a little oak (50ppm blanc soft, and 5g/gal mixed oak). A small acid addition (no where near wine levels) tends to help as well. Aside from these, I think the perfect starting OG for a dry mead is around 1.105-1.110, depending on the honey type. 
There is another problem. For some reason, mead making is associated with brewers as opposed to winemakers, and, while mead is unique, it is far closer to wine than beer, including the mouthfeel: relying on structure, tannins, complexity, and acidity compared to unfermentable dextrins. A medium bodied wine tasted by a beer person will tend to taste thin when it's simply not (relatively). 
There is a benefi to making sack meads: I think it is a lot easier to make a great high abv sweet mead at home, than a comparable wine for the simple reason that the average home winemaker can't wait until higher grape maturity, or botrytis to set in. 
I'm sure someone will correct me there, but before you do, ask yourself: if you spent as much time, energy, resources, and experience devoted to mead making as you did making that port or TBA style wine, which could come out as higher quality? Could you honestly buy the same high quality grapes as you could high quality honey? Aside from this, it just comes down to preferences: some people prefer wine as opposed to mead.

Just a few thoughts.


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## byathread (Jul 1, 2014)

Well said, Bob!


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## PAFruitWines (Jul 4, 2014)

this is very interesting reading to the newbie. I have only been making wine for about 6 mos. i'm happy drinking DB and fruit wines from concentrate for everyday. I want to do some sweet, high ABV meads for holidays and special occasions. 2 months ago I started a spiced cyser. I used honey from Costco and caramelized it in a pressure cooker. how does "quality" honey differ? also so much conflicting info and recipes on the internet about meads. I just got 10 lbs of blueberries. I want to make a melomel. I want it to be a sweet mead with a light blueberry flavor. any suggestions on a recipe and honey?

thanks! Mike


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## seth8530 (Jul 5, 2014)

Quality of honey makes a major difference. Try ordering a honey sampler from a distributor and taste the differences.


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## byathread (Jul 5, 2014)

Check out Honey Locator (or try your local farmer's market) and befriend your local beekeepers! Ask how much honey they produce per year and how they process their honey. The less processed the better (honey does not need to be heated or filtered - and the consumer loses out on nutrition and flavor/aroma when honey is anything more than strained at room temp to 100F). You're sure to find some unique and delicious honey.


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## Bob1016 (Jul 6, 2014)

There's a reason I have a blog: so I don't have to take up a ton of space in a single post. 
http://meadscience.blogspot.com/2014/05/sourcing-honey.html?m=1
Much shorter post, see?


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## PAFruitWines (Jul 7, 2014)

Bob1016 said:


> There's a reason I have a blog: so I don't have to take up a ton of space in a single post.
> http://meadscience.blogspot.com/2014/05/sourcing-honey.html?m=1
> Much shorter post, see?



I read your blog. im not far from Dutch Gold. I think im going to go there and get several varieties and do some gallon batches of a fast drinker recipe I have seen. this should B a good learning experience for me to see how different varieties taste.


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## Bob1016 (Jul 7, 2014)

That is a very good thing to do for palate education. The BOMM recipe is good for quick turnaround, but I still prefer the flavor of wine yeast and the time it takes for those to batches to age.


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## Deezil (Jul 9, 2014)

Been watching this thread develop, but I guess I'll finally chime in..



SouthernChemist said:


> Some people seem to assume that mead should always be strong just like some people assume that mead should always be rather sweet.





Bob1016 said:


> For some reason, mead making is associated with brewers as opposed to winemakers, and, while mead is unique, it is far closer to wine than beer, including the mouthfeel: relying on structure, tannins, complexity, and acidity compared to unfermentable dextrins. A medium bodied wine tasted by a beer person will tend to taste thin when it's simply not (relatively).



I've noticed that the same people that assume mead should always be strong, also tend to assume that mead is closer to making beer than wine. While the folks at GotMead are full of knowledge, most of them, from the reading i've done, seem to approach mead from a brewing standpoint.



SouthernChemist said:


> My problem with meads I have had from other people is that they suffer from being so sweet that it is sickening, so strongly flavored by an adjunct (fruit, spices, etc.) that you cannot even taste the honey component, or too hot. Quality of honey is pretty important, too. I think sometimes people use more honey because what they have is of a lower quality.



Lower quality honey could be part of it.. But if the meads you've tasted are that far off, it's probably also to hide a flaw or three. 

You have to take purposeful steps to make meads with body - sur lie battonage, SIY's, oaks... If you dont know how to do these things, the most-common way to make a mead that tastes like alcoholic honey-water (a flaw, to some), taste more like what people think mead is, is to add more honey. 

These same people generally dont know much about yeast, yeast nutrients, or the other tweaks they could do, to find that same outcome.



SouthernChemist said:


> I personally have had better results when I make mead with a similar thought process to making a drier white wine.





byathread said:


> That's something else about meads, though ancient, in the modern world there is no specific framework of styles for meads (unlike wine and beer), and far fewer commercial examples so I found it took me quite a while longer to determine what I liked in the mead world - mostly dry meads, cysers, melomels.



It's not that there arent specific frameworks for mead styles - there are - they just dont have much share of the American Marketplace... But there are definitive differences between traditionals, sack meads, bochets, melomels, braggots, etc.

But the only time these differences really seem to matter is when it comes to entering Mead competitions. Like traditionals, in most competitions, have to be fermented without any additions of yeast nutrients. So, being a new meadmaker, and making a Gold-winning Traditional, aren't two things that normally coincide.

Most of the debating over the differences and details with mead styles, happens with folks that are from Europe / aren't from the US. Mead just hasnt 'caught up' to wine and beer, in the States. Like battonage/oak/SIY's, you wont really know that there debate is there, until you go looking for it.



Bob1016 said:


> There is a benefit to making sack meads: I think it is a lot easier to make a great high abv sweet mead at home, than a comparable wine for the simple reason that the average home winemaker can't wait until higher grape maturity, or botrytis to set in.
> I'm sure someone will correct me there, but before you do, ask yourself: if you spent as much time, energy, resources, and experience devoted to mead making as you did making that port or TBA style wine, which could come out as higher quality? Could you honestly buy the same high quality grapes as you could high quality honey? Aside from this, it just comes down to preferences: some people prefer wine as opposed to mead.



I would agree with you, that it's much easier to make a sack mead than a sweet wine... When you don't yet know what you're doing. 

Once you have the knowledge though, the product is determined mostly by the materials (honey or grapes) you have to work with. If you live in CA, WA, or the Finger Lakes area, and you cant make a decent sweet wine........

When you have high quality grapes, the wine will almost make itself - this takes more work in the vineyard, but less in the winery (and thats what you pay for, with high quality grapes). Bees however, are only ever going to do so-much of the work for you. 

I dont think its so much a question of which materials will make the highest quality, but what materials of the highest quality, do you have access to.



BernardSmith said:


> The one thing that is never very clear to me, however, is whether mead makers use large quantities of honey because the flavor is too thin if you used a quantity of honey that would result in a mead with a normal ABV (say 12 percent) or whether they choose to use a great deal of honey because they believe that mead should approach stratospheric levels of alcohol, so rather than use, say 2.5 - 3 lbs of honey, many meads discussed in Gotmead use 3-4 lbs /gallon (one pound of honey will increase the gravity in one gallon by about .040). This results in either a very sweet mead (with the yeast dying of alcohol poisoning) or meads of very high alcohol content if the yeast survives. The problem exists, I think, because the very same material that is providing the flavor is providing the sugar and so the alcohol.



The group of folks at GotMead in particular, tend to use higher amounts of honey than what's advised around here, because most of them approach making mead from a brewers perspective and their use of yeast nutrients is generally limiting. 

Just my opinion here, but I believe that most brewers are used to 'front loading' their batch - meaning they add everything upfront and just let it work away until it stops, while praying they got the amounts right. I know I've never read of a beer where they step-fed the malts into the batch, like we can do with the honey. 


Personally, I make my meads like some others have mentioned - in the 'style' of a drier white wine. Red-fruit melomels can be done in more of a red wine style, although not fermented at the extremes that some reds are, because that would entirely blow off the honey's aromatics. 

I wont make a batch without sythesized inactivated yeast (SIY) products, if i can help it, though - Booster Blanc or Rouge, Opti-Red/-White... The timing of the additions, when done right, will bring out that mid-palette that can be missing or lackluster, extends the finish of the wine, and also improves the body.. 

I havent used oak in any of my wines/meads yet, as I'm striving to make nice examples of these flavors sans-oak, to gain a better understanding of the oaks when I do bring them into the fold. 

PAFruitWines/Mike, if you start a new thread in this Mead section for your blueberry melomel, I'm sure you'll get more help that you anticipate.


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## Bob1016 (Jul 30, 2014)

This is known as Joe's Ancient Orange Melomel/Mead (JAOM), and can produce a decent mead, but I find that people either like it or not (I'm one of the latter). If you would like to do it I highly suggest using bread yeast (either fliechmans or red star) because dry versions (using wine yeasts) tend to be completely out of balance.


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## tonyt (Aug 7, 2014)

Thanks folks. I'm still not sure what I'm going to try.


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## byathread (Aug 8, 2014)

The world is your oyster!

Ever try any commercial meads? What have you liked?


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## the_rayway (Aug 9, 2014)

Hey Tony,
Something I wish I had done sooner, which I'm currently rectifying, is making a plain mead out of really wonderful honey. By plain I mean: find a honey that when you taste it raw is exactly what you like (different strokes, as they say). I like one that tastes like buttered toast with honey as a base.

Then mix up a batch, using all of your wine knowledge of nutrients, etc. then split it up a bit. Leave a gal plain, put oak in another gal, and two different oaks in a third. Or something to that order. Then you have a bit to play with and see what it really will taste like.

I'm enjoying the search for 'the best honey I can find - from home'. I need stuff I can get locally for most of my meads. Sourcing (and tasting) is one of the best parts of the whole process IMHO!


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## seth8530 (Aug 9, 2014)

I got a really good supplier in Oregon, but they are a bit expensive... So I am going to go scouting for more honey.. I found this place willing to do me 240$ for 5 gallons of honey.

One of the best comercial meads I have had thus far, and its a session mead, is from nector creak.

If you are at the store and you want to buy a mead, I would advice seing what the selection offers and see which of the selection has won at the Mazers Cup International. That is my best way of choosing commercial mead.


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