# 0% survival Vidal Blanc?



## Stressbaby (May 5, 2018)

I installed 125 vines last year. Had decent growth on most vines, excellent growth on Vidal - all hit my top wire and most developed 4-8' cordons and had to be tipped because they were growing across the vines to either side. Canes as thick as my thumb.

I have 100% survival on Foch, Frontenac, Traminette, Chardonel, and Chambourcin, 100%. I have 42/44 on Norton, lost two of those over the winter. Almost all have bud break to the top of the pruned vine, one Norton died back a lot but has bud break near the ground.

Vidal right now looks like a complete loss. I see no bud swell/bud break on any of the 36 vines. When you scrape back bark on the vines there is no green.

How long would you leave these vines to see if something comes back?
Causes?
Possible to get any vines and replant this year or do I wait for next year?
Other thoughts?


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## salcoco (May 5, 2018)

there root system should still be intact assuming there loss is cold and not chemical. cut a few down to the ground level. if roots are as I believe you will get new growth. it will similar to the Norton vine that has started further up the trunk. alternate is keep pruning down until you see green and stop at this level to watch growth. you can still plant in Missouri this year if you can find plants.


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## Stressbaby (May 5, 2018)

salcoco said:


> there root system should still be intact assuming there loss is cold and not chemical. cut a few down to the ground level. if roots are as I believe you will get new growth. it will similar to the Norton vine that has started further up the trunk. alternate is keep pruning down until you see green and stop at this level to watch growth. you can still plant in Missouri this year if you can find plants.



Thanks Sal. 
Chemicals can be ruled out. I poked around carefully and found a basal shoot on 5 of the 36 vines. Does that change your thinking? I pruned a couple down to about 10" and still no green.
It will be really difficult to find time to replant this year even if I could find vines.


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## BigH (May 5, 2018)

Where are you located and how cold did it get there this winter? Iowa State lists Vidal Blanc as moderately cold hardy : -10 F. 

H


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## Stressbaby (May 5, 2018)

"For Missouri, September 2017-January 2018 ranks as the driest September to January period in more than 40 years"

http://climate.missouri.edu/news/arc/feb2018a.php

Central Missouri. We hit -9F in January. Also, total of 0.5" precipitation in Nov and December combined.


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## salcoco (May 6, 2018)

I think that the roots are still the answer. if you can irrigate or have good rainfall I believe that you will get growth from the roots. I presume these are not grafted. if grafted might have problem on growth. I live in Kansas city area and have had plants die as you describe but still comeback from the roots. again these were ungrafted grapes.


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## cmason1957 (May 6, 2018)

I have a friend who owns a winery in Missouri, it by Hermann. They have lost all their Vidal vines over the past three years. I am going to assume due to the dryness.


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## treesaver (May 6, 2018)

It was very dry here where I live these last six months. Up untill this last week, we had not had more than just over an inch in that time period, and most of that came as skiffs of snow which just evaporated. All my vines made it, but I'm in heavy clay soil, that just won't give up it's moisture! My new planting of verona are all just out of bud break and all the older vine too, so it's off to the races for another growing season. Just hope the hail stays away! I forgot to mention that I'm in NE Ks.


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## grapeman (May 7, 2018)

Sorry I did not chime in on this sooner. Friday we had a very nice day until the evening. Storms developed in the area and we were under tornado watch - a rare event here. About 8 PM the winds went from 0 to probably 40 mph. It kept building until at 10:45 the power went out. Some in the area are still out and may be for several more days. I put up a high tunnel last year and was worried about that. About 11 PM we heard breaking branches, cracking and then thump. A pine tree broke off at about 40 feet up, fell, hit another tree, broke off a 12 foot log which landed 25 feet away from the high tunnel and the top fell on the other side of the tree it hit.

The others have given you pretty good advice here. The super dry weather probably played a factor for you. Since you probably can't get replacements this year prune back if you can and see what will regrow this year. Part of the problem as well as the dryness was probably the super vigor you had last year with them. Vines that grow so fast and get such thick shoots seem to be less prepared for cold weather events than slower growing vines. They may have gotten too much fertility last year during the growing season. Anyway, see what grows back. You may be surprised and they will all grow back for you.


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## treesaver (May 7, 2018)

I forgot to add a thought to my former post. I've told about this on here one other time, but it bears repeating. I had a friend bring an enclosed trailer here several years ago. I parked it about fifty feet from my concord vines, and then had a micro burst hit that night. The wind came from all directions, depending where you were! It took that trailer right through the middle of my vines, breaking down the trellis and ripping vines off and breaking cordons off. Trailer ended up down below my orchard on it's side, hurt pretty bad. I about cried the next morning when I saw my vineyard. The point is, there were several vines broke off at the ground. That summer all but one grew back. That one never pushed a stem up, so I kept a few prunings and rooted them the following spring. When they had good roots going, I took my shovel out and went to plant one in that spot. When I doug into the old vine roots, they were all very much alive yet, but still hadn't put out any new shoots above ground. At that point, it was too late for the old plant, but I cannot understand how it could remain alive for a season and a half, and not have some photosynthesis to feed the roots! To say I was amazed is an understatement!


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## Stressbaby (May 8, 2018)

salcoco said:


> I think that the roots are still the answer. if you can irrigate or have good rainfall I believe that you will get growth from the roots. I presume these are not grafted. if grafted might have problem on growth. I live in Kansas city area and have had plants die as you describe but still comeback from the roots. again these were ungrafted grapes.





cmason1957 said:


> I have a friend who owns a winery in Missouri, it by Hermann. They have lost all their Vidal vines over the past three years. I am going to assume due to the dryness.





grapeman said:


> The others have given you pretty good advice here. The super dry weather probably played a factor for you. Since you probably can't get replacements this year prune back if you can and see what will regrow this year. Part of the problem as well as the dryness was probably the super vigor you had last year with them. Vines that grow so fast and get such thick shoots seem to be less prepared for cold weather events than slower growing vines. They may have gotten too much fertility last year during the growing season. Anyway, see what grows back. You may be surprised and they will all grow back for you.





treesaver said:


> I forgot to add a thought to my former post. I've told about this on here one other time, but it bears repeating. I had a friend bring an enclosed trailer here several years ago. I parked it about fifty feet from my concord vines, and then had a micro burst hit that night. The wind came from all directions, depending where you were! It took that trailer right through the middle of my vines, breaking down the trellis and ripping vines off and breaking cordons off. Trailer ended up down below my orchard on it's side, hurt pretty bad. I about cried the next morning when I saw my vineyard. The point is, there were several vines broke off at the ground. That summer all but one grew back. That one never pushed a stem up, so I kept a few prunings and rooted them the following spring. When they had good roots going, I took my shovel out and went to plant one in that spot. When I doug into the old vine roots, they were all very much alive yet, but still hadn't put out any new shoots above ground. At that point, it was too late for the old plant, but I cannot understand how it could remain alive for a season and a half, and not have some photosynthesis to feed the roots! To say I was amazed is an understatement!



Thanks to everyone for replies.
I didn't think the winter drought was that bad but I'm beginning to think that it really was. I irrigated for an extended period yesterday, several hours, and there was no pooling whatsoever - the ground soaked up the water like a sponge. I still see growth on only 5 plants but I'm going to keep them hydrated and I will post back with updates.


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## fathertom (May 8, 2018)

I live in the Panhandle of Texas, and we had no measurable moisture from October 13 until now. I irrigated in the winter to keep the roots moist. I have 100 Vidal Blanc. They are late to come out, some of the latest budbreak, so that might be a thing for you also. I lost none, but it was probably because of the winter watering. A neighbor, who didn't water had loss.

If your roots are still good, and you had a winter episode, either a frost in the Autumn that killed the vines before they went dormant, or cold, then who knows??? How did your grapes go dormant? If it was slow, the carbohydrates that withdraw to the roots should be fine. If they went dormant too quickly, then the carbohydrates in the vines didn't have a chance to go to the roots. In your fertilization, perhaps adding potassium after fruit will help the roots in the future. Hope they all pop back up for you.


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## Stressbaby (May 10, 2018)

Friend down the road with 10 acres of vines came by to look and didn't have any great ideas, said much the same as folks in this thread, watch them for another couple of weeks. But he has a consultant coming up from Hermann and he's going to bring him by to take a look.


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## jgmillr1 (May 10, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> But he has a consultant coming up from Hermann and he's going to bring him by to take a look.



Thanks for the update. Please post back here with any further findings. I've been looking at adding some Vidal to our vineyard but this raises some hesitations.


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## shrewsbury (May 11, 2018)

I have 180 vidal blancs, 60 planted last year. I have 100% survival. We have had 2 straight years of low rain fall, here in Ohio, and I have spent numerous hours watering. I have watered via sprinkler and 5 gallon buckets and spent more time watering than weeding last year. Vidals are picky and high maintenance. 
I hope you have life underground and they pop back up. 
good luck!


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## Stressbaby (May 20, 2018)

Nothing yet...starting to think about replacements...
We do not like any hybrids that are foxy. My wife's favorite wine is Marlborough SB. Thinking of Frontenac Blanc, Itasca, Brianna, La Crescent...


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## cmason1957 (May 20, 2018)

La Crescent does very well in Missouri. The citrus flavors are almost overwhelming from it.


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## KevinL (May 21, 2018)

I'm in Northern Illinois, and I planted a few Vidal. We had a pretty dry late summer, and all of my Vidal seems to have survived that plus the extended winter we had. Bud break has been late though. The last few are showing signs now.


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## Stressbaby (Jun 2, 2018)

I'm up to 11 vidal vines with growth. The living vines are pretty vigorous - from a basal shoot almost to the top wire already on a couple of them.

Got a decent 1/2" rain this morning - going to just sit tight and see...


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## Stressbaby (Jun 9, 2018)

Keeping the water on 'em. Up to 13 vines back.


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## shrewsbury (Jun 11, 2018)

Glad to hear!


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## Stressbaby (Jun 12, 2018)

Up to 14.

The consultant from Hermann came by tonight. @grapeman nailed it. Diagnosis is winter injury. Fertile soil, big thick canes, excessive vigor, long internodes, unprepared for winter cold. In retrospect was a mistake to prune off lower canes as this directed all energy into the one great big thick trunk. 

We scraped the base of some vines which have no visible growth and still seeing green, so hoping we still get some more back. He said he wouldn't hesitate to replant. NO FERTILIZER. Taper water late summer and fall. Leave all the canes and choose a cane which is thinner with shorter internodes.


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## CK55 (Jun 13, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> Up to 14.
> 
> The consultant from Hermann came by tonight. @grapeman nailed it. Diagnosis is winter injury. Fertile soil, big thick canes, excessive vigor, long internodes, unprepared for winter cold. In retrospect was a mistake to prune off lower canes as this directed all energy into the one great big thick trunk.
> 
> We scraped the base of some vines which have no visible growth and still seeing green, so hoping we still get some more back. He said he wouldn't hesitate to replant. NO FERTILIZER. Taper water late summer and fall. Leave all the canes and choose a cane which is thinner with shorter internodes.


Ouch, hope you dont have to replant.


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## Stressbaby (Jun 13, 2018)

I imagine I will have to replant, just hope it's not so many.


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## Stressbaby (Jul 22, 2018)

Up to 18 - half of the plants have come back.


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## shrewsbury (Jul 22, 2018)

Great news!


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