# Has anyone made cranberry wine?



## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

I have been _trying _to start the 5 gallon jug of cranberry I got last week from Walkers Fruit Basket. I've had trouble from the get-go!

I decided to use Cote des Blancs instead of the included Montrachet because I wanted some residual sugar. I started the yeast with 1/2 cup of warm water then stirred it well into the juice last Thursday. Nothing! I realized that my water wasn't warm enough (the thermostat on the new hot water heater was set to 90 degrees) so I started over on Saturday, this time being sure the water was the right temp. Nothing! My house has been on the cool side but not cool enough to fire up the furnace. I took the juice temp and it was 60. No wonder the yeast wasn't working! Using the oven mostly I warmed the kitchen and the juice to 72 and still nothing. Last night I decided to use the yeast they sent figuring they sent it for a reason. I expected it to be perking away this morning but nothing! I expected it to be perking away when I got home from work. Nothing! I added 3 more teaspoons of yeast nutrient and stirred some more just a bit ago.

What do I try next? How long can juice go before it's no good? HELP!!


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2007)

Cotes Des Blanc will range fro 12-14% abv. Montrachet will sop at 13% so what it came with would be better and Montrachet is supposed bring out the color and body better. What is the SG of this right now? If too high for reason it will give it trouble. Did you add any k-meta?
*Edited by: wade *


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## dfwwino (Oct 22, 2007)

What's the PH and acidity? What's the SG? Also, I wonder if Walker's oversulfited. I once had a wine that was oversulfited prefermentation (can't remember why, other than the winemaker was stupid). It took several days before fermentation began, while I frantically watched waiting for a microbial infection to destroy my must. Luckily, it did not and the wine turned out well. I vigorously stirred the must each day, agitated it, to drive off the sulfites as best I could.


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## dfwwino (Oct 22, 2007)

Wade's post gave me a thought (it wasn't there when I wrote mine). I read elsewhere on the forum (probably Bill B) that Walker's adds sufficient prefermentation sulfites. Did you add more sulfites? If so, there's your problem.


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## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

The only thing I added besides all the yeast was the yeast nutrient that came with it and then more this afternoon. SG is the same as when it arrived--1.196 and sulfites are 50 PPM. It's supposed to be a put the yeast in and go deal so I figured acid and pH are already balanced.


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## dfwwino (Oct 22, 2007)

I understand the yeast in and go deal. However, you've got no fermentation after four days, which is not normal. So there is some reason fermentation is not taking off, which could include PH imbalance, oversulfiting, lack of nutrient or some other reason. Cranberry is very acidic. Too much acid could be causing problems. Therefore, if you did an acid and PH test, it might help you diagnose the problem. you might also want to test for Sulfites and make sure there's only 50 PPM. *Edited by: dfwwino *


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## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

The can says the acidity is 1.13. No pH was given.

I have to leave for a while but I'll be back ...hopefully to say things are bubbling away!


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## dfwwino (Oct 22, 2007)

That seems like a very high level of acidity. But then I took a look at Bill B's tutorial on Walker's juice and he had some similarly high levels of acidity:
http://www.finevinewines.com//Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3962


I always thought acidity for fruit wines should be in the .50 to .60 range. Maybe you should give Bill B. a PM. 


Acidity and PH _usually_ have an inverse relationship. Because of your high acid level, the PH might be low. If PH is too low, it can inhibit yeast fermentation. 


If you don't have testing tools, I would start with the assumption that there are too much sulfites and use a drill stirrer or spoon to stir the must vigorously at least twice a day. I would make sure my yeast packets were reasonably fresh, not outdated, and I would keep pitching the same yeast every day until fermentation started. If nothing happened, I might resort to attempting to lower the acid with Calcium Carbonate. But it's like being blind without performing tests for PH, acid and sulfites. Don't believe what you read. Employees make mistakes. Someone could have overdosed the sulfites, provided a mistaken acidity level, given you really old yeast. *Edited by: dfwwino *


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## jobe05 (Oct 22, 2007)

Joan: Acid does seem a bit high, but I only know what I read, No experience here with Acid............ Well.............. in wine..............






The SG seems a bit high also, nit impossible, but a little high. 

I would wip the snot out of it (as Waldo would say) to add a little oxygen to it then I would do what NW does, Put it next to the fridge to warm it up a bit. That yeast is going to need to be 77 degrees+ to start with an SG of 1.198...... Just my thoughts

*Edited by: jobe05 *


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## lockdude (Oct 22, 2007)

1196 is awful high Sg.The yeast may not start with that much sugar.I would put a 1/2 gallon of the must in a gallon jug,and add some water to it to drop the sg.Pinch it with a pack of yeast and after a day of fermenting,add it back to the rest of it.If you can get a gallon of it going good in a starter,it should start.Dont add anymore neutrents.
lockdude


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2007)

That is going to be a sweet wine and dont recommend using a yeast that will take it any higher or you will have a very hot bottle of jet fuel. The acidity is very high and really should not be above .70 typically. I think you should call Walkers tommorow and ask them if this should be watered down as both of those #'s a very high in my opinion.


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## jobe05 (Oct 22, 2007)

I would think she would be safe adjusting from 5 gallons to 6 gallons. THat would put the acid almost right and the SG .......... maybe a little low but easier to adjust.

Does Walkers ship 100% pure straight juice, or is it already watered down? I may have to try the Blackberry and Black currant if it 100%. 

*Edited by: jobe05 *


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## grapeman (Oct 22, 2007)

Either you typed in the wrong SG or it is extremely high. Those must be numbers provided by Walkers because my hydrometer only goes up to 1.160 and that is 21% ABV.1.196 would be pretty hih to begin fermenting. I like the idea lockdude has. Make a starter with a diluted gallon- I would go half and half. It sure wouldn't hurt to whip it good to drive off some of the sulfites. You had three strikes working for you. Warm up the must, lower the sulfites and make a yeast starter. The acid is probably ok. You want the cranberry tart, and the residual sugars(especially if that high) will balance it out well. It probably wouldn't hurt to give Walkers a call and verify the numbers- errors can happen!


Good luck with it Joan. I'm rooting for you!


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## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

Excuse my stupidity, gentlemen!! I have never read SG well. It has confused me from my first batch of wine and apparently that hasn't changed! The Brix on the can is 21 which works out to just under 11% abv and that is accurate on my hydrometer. What does that make the SG?


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## grapeman (Oct 22, 2007)

Joan said:


> Excuse my stupidity, gentlemen!! I have never read SG well. It has confused me from my first batch of wine and apparently that hasn't changed! The Brix on the can is 21 which works out to just under 11% abv and that is accurate on my hydrometer. What does that make the SG?


~1.084 Actually it is a little over 11% and if it goes to dry it will likely be over 12%(add the extra point under 1.000 at about .992)


That should ferment once the sulfites are a little lower.*Edited by: appleman *


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## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

Oh dear lord! I've been reading it bass ackwards!!





I'm going to find my drill!


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## grapeman (Oct 22, 2007)

Joan are you just a little lissdexic? You have to watch out for those backwards bass!


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## jobe05 (Oct 22, 2007)

Applemans right, 1.084 should start with no problems. I'd put it in a warmer spot and watch it for another day, but for $0.69, I would go ahead and do another starter using some of the cranberry juice, mix with 50% water.

And still stir the snot out of it!


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## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

The snot's been beat out of it and it's in a warmer place. I am crossing my fingers that it will be up and running in the morning.

I forgot to report...I broke my floating thermometer on Saturday checking the juice temp.


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## dfwwino (Oct 22, 2007)

appleman said:


> Joan are you just a little lissdexic? You have to watch out for those backwards bass!






Well, I must be xicdexliss because I had earlier read that SG as 1.096. Yup, 1.196 would be a huge SG, off the charts. But now that we're at 21 brix, too much sugar is definitely not the problem, which leaves excess sulfites,too low of PH, bad yeast or bad karma. I bet it is the first. Time to start using that drill and driving off sulfites. 


Joan, it helps when taking the SG readings not tostart drinking the wine until after you obtain the SG reading.






By the way, my eyes are so bad now I can barely read the SG.I need to get some reading glasses. Aging sucks.*Edited by: dfwwino *


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## Joanie (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm wondering about the karma thing, dfw! I've never had this much go wrong. I'm starting to get a tad nervous wondering about what else might go wrong with it!






Thanks for all your help, gentlemen! I appreciate it more than you know! I'll keep you posted!


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2007)

This is probably all that will go wrong with this batch and it will be the go medal winner.


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

Houston, we have a problem! I got hold of a pH meter and the pH reads 1.06. I can safely say my yeast is in a hostile environment! Can it be saved?


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## grapeman (Oct 23, 2007)

Joan don't fret too much. I really doubt that reading. If you have a digital pH meter, I would say it needs calibrating or the probe has gone bad. The strongest acid there is, is only 1, so I doubt that the cranberry juice is 1.06. That would likely eat through the plastic jug. If it is truly that acidic, I think Walker's would gladly send you a new jug to avoid problems! The Karma continues!


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm seriously fretting!!!!!


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

I soaked the brand new meter and did a do-over... it now reads 4.94. Am I in a good range?

I have to leave for work...any and all replies/suggestions/help won't be read until I get home.


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## dfwwino (Oct 23, 2007)

I think we need to send in a Wine Rescue team. Do we have such a special forces unit? 4.94 does not seem right either. Wines generally have a PH between 3.2 to 3.8, and if outside that range, it is only a .1 or .2variance. A PH of 3 is 10 times more acidic than a PH of 4. The higher the PH, the lower the acidity and vice versa. If a PH of wine is too high, e.g., over 4, it can be unstable and subject to microbial infection. If a PH of wine is too low, it will inhibit not only microbial infection, but also yeast fermentation. Because you're getting no fermentation, I suspect your must haseither too much sulfites or too low a PH (which might be possible with highly acidic cranberry). I would have expected the PH to be lower, especially given the juice is cranberry. Perhaps the probe is bad. I would read through your PH meter instructions, make sure you calibrate it in accordance with instructions, make sure your buffering solution is good, and try again. Take multiple readings to ensure you're getting the right reading. *Edited by: dfwwino *


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## grapeman (Oct 23, 2007)

Joan like dfw says, you need to calibrate the probe using the two buffer solutions. One is generally 4.01 and the other 7.01. I suspect that you didn't get those solutions with the meter and haven't calibrated it yet. Once that is done, it is really easy to get an accurate reading. Walkers should be able to give you the pH values.


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## dfwwino (Oct 23, 2007)

I would definitely call Walker's and tell them the problems you're having. My understanding is that the juice is supposed to be balanced so that fermentation starts without a hassle. Something is out of wack. We're on day 5 now.


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## lockdude (Oct 23, 2007)

If they used northern cranberrys,it could be bensoic acid thats causing the problem.Did you try to make a watered down starter?
lockdude


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## dfwwino (Oct 23, 2007)

Very good point, Lockdude. Benzoic acid does inhibit or prevent yeast fermentation and cranberries can contain high levels of benzoic acid. Now is there any way to measure benzoic acid? Joan, I would call Walker's and see if other customers are having problems with fermentation of the cranberry juice. And if there's still no activity, get a watered down starter underway. *Edited by: dfwwino *


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm _*finally*_ getting some action! It's weak but it seems to be working. I'm not touching anything until it's rolling!!!

I just spoke with Walkers. I was told the cranberry does take several days to start, it starts off slow, but will eventually be more vigorous. I guess I'm okay. I think! I asked about the pH on it but she didn't have the numbers right there but would if I needed them. Now if someone will jump start my heart! I swear getting a batch going is the hardest part of winemaking for me!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for holding my hand thru all of this. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

What do you mean by a "watered down starter"?


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## dfwwino (Oct 23, 2007)

Joan,
Lockdude brought up an excellent point that I had not considered. Unlike Southern blueberries, Northern blueberries and cranberries may contain high levels of benzoic acid, which is a preservative. Because I make blueberry wine with Southern blueberries, I have not personally experienced this issue, but have read elsewhere about it. Now that you have some initial fermentation underway, my guess is that the dose of 50 ppm sulfites and the natural benzoic acid in cranberries does a double whammy on yeast. Therefore, it probably takes a few days until SO2in the must leaves solution as gas for the SO2 level to drop enough so the double whammy effect is gone. No science, just a guess. Because you now have some activity, I guess that the SO2 level has dropped significantly andI would wait and see what happens in the next twelve hours. If, by then,the fermentation activity has not increased, I would do as lockdude suggests and create a yeast starter with 1/2 must and 1/2 water. A watered-down starter will reduce the acid level and SO2 level in the volume of must used for the starter. The problem is that you will need to transfer the remaining must to a larger container because once you have a healthy starter, you will be pitching a larger starter back into the remaining must, which will be more than five gallons. *Edited by: dfwwino *


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

How much are you talking with 1/2 must and 1/2 water. Do you mean use half of the total must?


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## dfwwino (Oct 23, 2007)

Lockdude's post motivated a little research with Google. There's actually a scientific article about benzoic acid in northern berries, which states:



"The most problematic compound with reference to winemaking from lingonberry is benzoic acid, which contributes to the acidity of the berry. As a microbicidal compound, benzoic acid also prevents fermentation of lingonberry juice. Thus, the known pH-dependent ability of _Saccharomyces cerevisiae_ yeast to uptake benzoic acid from solutions was applied. By suspending 15-20%(w/w) of the yeast for 10min in undiluted lingonberry juice, the benzoic acid concentration was reduced by 75-91%, titratable acids by about 14% and pH increased by 0.1 units. The resulting undiluted juice was successfully fermented with a new yeast inoculum. Thus, yeast may be used as a selective absorbent to remove a certain fermentation-hindering component from the juice. These results offer new insights into berry juice fermentation."
http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2003/isbn9512264358/


I also found a Treatise on Chemistry, which states that cranberries withstand fermentation and putrefication better than most fruits due to benzoic acid in them. 


Therefore, Walkers probably does not need to treat the must with sulfites, or at least not with a full dose of 50 ppm,prefermentation because of the presence of the preservative benzoic acid. You might suggest to Walker's that it determine the level of benzoic acid in its northern berry musts before dosing with sulfites.*Edited by: dfwwino *


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

Never mind... I found my answer! Thanks Appleman and Lockdude!

Thanks dfw!


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## lockdude (Oct 23, 2007)

Great! Im glad you got it going.I knew you would.
lockdude


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## grapeman (Oct 23, 2007)

We are keeping our fingers crossed for you Joan! Good Luck


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## Joanie (Oct 23, 2007)

It's still not making much progress so I made a starter. How long should I let that work before adding it back to the primary?


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## grapeman (Oct 23, 2007)

Wait until it is bubbling along happily with a good head.


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## Wade E (Oct 23, 2007)

Joan, this is not going to be an active fermentation like a red wine. Its not going to look like its doing anything other than the sizzling especially if the Cotes Des Blanc took over. Both of these yeasts are slow cookers.


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## dfwwino (Oct 23, 2007)

There is an article in Brew Your Own by John Palmer: "Brew Scene Investigation." I guess we can call this topic "Wine Scene Investigation." I am just hoping for Joan's sake, we can soon stamp "Case Closed." Take heart that your bad experience has provided a fountain of education and interest to the rest of us. Got to watch out now for that benzoic acid.


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## lockdude (Oct 23, 2007)

I read the BSI.Joan,let the starter work for at least 24 hours so it will have lots of active cells when you add it.I started a cranberry tonight,but its made with old orchard frozen cranberry juice.I used 19 cans and 1 pound of sugar for 5 gallons.I used the cotes de blank so it will die at somewhere between 13-14%.Starting sg was 1110.I made a small test batch of it and it was really good,and finished dry.This one will be about the same.I figured 3 gallons wasnt going to last till the holidays,and everyone will want some so I had to make more.I used 5 tsps tartaric,and 1 and 1/4 of tannin.Its really good.Yours will get going once you add the starter,and like wade said,that yeast is a little slow,but good.
lockdude


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## Joanie (Oct 24, 2007)

Morning report!

The starter is bubbling along almost as vigorously as the 4 1/2 gallons in the primary! It was sooo wonderful seeing them working this morning. (I was up and hour early to check on them! I swear sometimes wine watching is worse than worrying about my children!!) 

Again, thank you all for your help. You're been fantastic! I owe you big time!


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## grapeman (Oct 24, 2007)

Bubble baby, bubble! Sounds like it got going pretty good even without the starter. Wait a while and pop it back in there and it should be all set


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2007)




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## Joanie (Oct 24, 2007)

You got that right, brother!!! 

I added the starter to the fermentor and it's happily bubbling away.



It was torture, I tell ya!!


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## dfwwino (Jan 13, 2009)

Joan,


Please update us on your cranberry wine. I am thinking about ordering a pail from Walker's. Do you recommend it?


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## Joanie (Jan 14, 2009)

Hey DFW!

Well...it has good color and flavor but it's a tad tart! It would be better if it was backsweetened a bit just to take that edge off. Certainly the price is good or rather it was when I bought mine 2 years ago.

It's a bear to start...be sure to make a starter. Would I make it again? I'm not so sure as there are a whole lot of other flavors I want to make.


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## Bill B (Jan 14, 2009)

Joan sorry you had this problem with the cranberry. I too had this same problem with Walkers Cranberry. As said in an earlier post the acid in cranberries doesn't like to be fermented. Mine was real tough to get started. I also called Walkers and they said that they have had complaints about the cranberry getting started. (this was last year)Im glad you got it going. As to the HIGH acid in the juices, I too was concerned however after making over 25 HOT PACK juices the acid levels are of no concern IF and I mean IF you back sweeten. Then you will be quite surprised at how clean and crisp your wine will taste. Those who have tasted my Blackberry and Blueberry will attest to this. One more thing on various juices the PH was 3.10 to 3.50


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## dfwwino (Jan 15, 2009)

Bill,


I saw that Walker's offers hot press grape juice in various varieties. Have you made any of the grape varieties? If so, how were your results?


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## Bill B (Jan 15, 2009)

dfwwino, I have made the Concord, Riesling,Chardonnay,and the Traminette. Theseall made wonderful wines. No problems. These juices come with yeast(Montrechet) and a packet of yeast nutrient. If you want to add oak this you must add your own. Also I found that these will benefit from A Cold Stabilization for about 1 week. 
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