# Which type of yeast?



## Gypsy509 (Sep 18, 2018)

Hi,
We live in Florida and have been making wine for about 25 years now. We have a self contained and temperature controlled wine cellar with our equipment and make about 100 gallons total of Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Syrah each year.
Up until now we have never added any sulphites, yeast or additives. We learned from my Italian father-in-law who had been a winemaker for over 50 years and that is how he made his wine.
I have been doing research and would like to try and add some yeast this year but there are so many strains to choose from that it is very confusing. I was thinking of either ICV-D254 or RP15 for making 70 gallons of Petite Syrah.
Does anyone have any recommendations?
Thanks,
Gypsy509


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## Ajmassa (Sep 18, 2018)

I’m on opposite end. Attempting the old school way for the 1st time this year. 

D-254 is a proven winner. And part of a popular combo (maybe the most popular) of d254 and d80. And then blending together later. Tried this on a Malbec split into 2 ferments in May. I’ll be Blending in a barrel shortly. But so far The d254 has much stronger and more desirable bouquet. Haven’t tasted yet. 
I’m unfamiliar with RP-15


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## sour_grapes (Sep 19, 2018)

I have had good luck with both D254 and RP15. I have come to settle on '254 as my "go to" yeast.


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## Johnd (Sep 19, 2018)

I’m doing about 1200 pounds of Cali Cab this year and using two yeasts, D254 and BM4x4, my two favorites for big, bold reds.


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## Donz (Sep 19, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I’m doing about 1200 pounds of Cali Cab this year and using two yeasts, D254 and BM4x4, my two favorites for big, bold reds.



John - are you blending your Cab this year or just 100% Cab?


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## Johnd (Sep 19, 2018)

Donz said:


> John - are you blending your Cab this year or just 100% Cab?



I'm doing 100% Cab this year. Have my order in for the premium cab, but won't know whether or not it's available until harvest, it just depends upon the yield in the vineyard as to whether or not they can fill my order. If it's not available, I'll be doing the Lodi Cab that I did some of last year. In either case, the ferments will be separated with different yeasts and blended together once MLF has completed and the wine goes into a 60 gallon barrel. I'll probably crush and destem a few lugs into a third, smaller vessel to do a ferment with natural yeasts as well, and that will be blended into the mix if it works out.


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## Donz (Sep 19, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I'm doing 100% Cab this year. Have my order in for the premium cab, but won't know whether or not it's available until harvest, it just depends upon the yield in the vineyard as to whether or not they can fill my order. If it's not available, I'll be doing the Lodi Cab that I did some of last year. In either case, the ferments will be separated with different yeasts and blended together once MLF has completed and the wine goes into a 60 gallon barrel. I'll probably crush and destem a few lugs into a third, smaller vessel to do a ferment with natural yeasts as well, and that will be blended into the mix if it works out.



That sounds good.

My grapes are from Lodi. I'll be doing a Cab/Cab Franc/Merlot blend this year (dominantly Cab). BM4x4 and VP41 for yeast and malo.


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## CK55 (Sep 19, 2018)

Donz said:


> That sounds good.
> 
> My grapes are from Lodi. I'll be doing a Cab/Cab Franc/Merlot blend this year (dominantly Cab). BM4x4 and VP41 for yeast and malo.


I like merlot and cab franc, the real cab. not cab sav. cant stand it.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 19, 2018)

I don't have a favorite yet, there are too many I haven't tried. There is one that noone seems to ever mention which is Vintner's Harvest R56 I don't know what it's like on it's own because I always blend. I also like to use yeasts known to be compatible with MLF. 71B-1122 is one I keep on hand as one of my blenders for this reason. But I've always had luck with D254, D80, RC212, BM45, BM4X4, Clos, Syrah and Rhone 4600. I have 2 packs of PR15 I will be using for the first time this fall.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 19, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I like merlot and cab franc, the real cab. not cab sav. cant stand it.



I’m callin BS! You can’t stand Cab? But like merlot and cab franc? Bold reds. And grow 100 other varietals at your joint?

What’s your beef with Cab Sav? 
Because it just so happens to be the grape that gets the most focus- the most TLC- and made into some of the biggest boldest wines around. Often with all kinds of things going on in a good one. 
And some of the good ones— the really good ones, but not necessarily the most expensive ones, I find myself blown away by he powerful bouquet. And first taste can think “Now THIS is the gold standard. This is what a big bold dry red is supposed to be like!” 

Maybe you just haven’t had a good one. [emoji6]


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## Johnd (Sep 19, 2018)

Donz said:


> That sounds good.
> 
> My grapes are from Lodi. I'll be doing a Cab/Cab Franc/Merlot blend this year (dominantly Cab). BM4x4 and VP41 for yeast and malo.



Sounds like a nice blend. My last year batch was all Lodi as well, 66% Cab, 16.5% Merlot, 16.5% Petite Sirah, BM4x4, VP41, been in a new St. Martin French barrel for almost a year now. The edge is starting to come off now, but not much oak yet, hoping to leave it in for another year.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 19, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’m callin BS! You can’t stand Cab? But like merlot and cab franc? Bold reds. And grow 100 other varietals at your joint?
> 
> What’s your beef with Cab Sav?
> Because it just so happens to be the grape that gets the most focus- the most TLC- and made into some of the biggest boldest wines around. Often with all kinds of things going on in a good one.
> ...



Cab Sauv is the most planted grape in the world. Someone must like it.
https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2014/01/cabernet-now-worlds-most-planted-grape/


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## mainshipfred (Sep 19, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Sounds like a nice blend. My last year batch was all Lodi as well, 66% Cab, 16.5% Merlot, 16.5% Petite Sirah, BM4x4, VP41, been in a new St. Martin French barrel for almost a year now. The edge is starting to come off now, but not much oak yet, hoping to leave it in for another year.



John, what size barrel is that? Must be a large if there's not much oak after a year.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 19, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> John, what size barrel is that? Must be a large if there's not much oak after a year.



His Frenchie is a 30gal. Apparently these Saint Martin french barrels take a while to give off the essence. Which is intentional so ya can reap the microO2 benefits in a smaller barrel just as ya would in a full. They toast their non-fullys to a “medium long” i(smaller flame over a longer time period) instead of med-plus to counter the “smaller volume/ less time needed” aspect that is typical of most smaller barrels. 
I know this because when I did my research Saint Martin was the only undersized french barrel I could get in the US and spoke with their US rep multiple times.


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## CK55 (Sep 19, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Cab Sauv is the most planted grape in the world. Someone must like it.
> https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2014/01/cabernet-now-worlds-most-planted-grape/


Its more of everyone lemming training onto the bandwagon than really enjoying it. I don't like it and think its overproduced junk. And it tends to be the same or not very good.


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## Johnd (Sep 19, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> John, what size barrel is that? Must be a large if there's not much oak after a year.



It’s a 30 gallon barrel with a fairly big wine in it. Still super fruity and tannic, but the oak will eventually shine through........at least that’s the plan!! This year I’m doing a 60, hopefully Alain Fouquet if I can get it...


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## Ajmassa (Sep 19, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Its more of everyone lemming training onto the bandwagon than really enjoying it. I don't like it and think its overproduced junk. And it tends to be the same or not very good.



Just remember That wagon didn’t form from nothing. Was a legitimate reason the lemmings hopped on. 
Plus Your generalizing all the cabs produced as a whole. But not all grapes are grown the same. And not all wine is made the same. That is blatant Grapeism. #CabSavLivesMatter


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## Johnd (Sep 19, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Its more of everyone lemming training onto the bandwagon than really enjoying it. I don't like it and think its overproduced junk. And it tends to be the same or not very good.



I purposely ignored the first anti-cab comment, as you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect your right to your opinion. I, however, don’t share it. It would be nice if you were respectful of others preferences instead of characterizing everyone who likes cab as “lemming training onto the bandwagon”. 

My opinion is that Cabernet Sauvignon is the king of wine, and is what I prefer over all other varietals, though Petite Sirah gives it a hard run in my book. I buy and consume some of the finest cabs produced and make a fair amount of my own from grapes, and will continue to do so.


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## CDrew (Sep 19, 2018)

Cabernet Sauvignon makes great wine. No lemmings needed to figure that out. It sounds like "Sideways" where the protagonist doesn't like Merlot for no good reason.

I also agree that Petite Sirah is almost always interesting and worth a try and second look. Even a little bit blended into Zinfandel makes a much better wine, but it stands on it's own just fine too. I want to make some of my own this year and hopefully a source and an open Saturday will coincide! 

@CK55 I actually think your "opinion" is a weird bias with no thoughtful basis. Making categorical statements is not credible. In fact, I'll bet you can't blind taste a Cabernet vs a Merlot vs a Cab Franc or even a Zinfandel! (and not sure I could either, but happy to try!)

As for "overpriced" sadly, you are right. The Napa cabs I drank 30 years ago in my poverty 20s, are now so expensive that it demands an occasion. But wines from the foothills around here are top flight-Amador, El Dorado etc have fantastic wine at reasonable prices. It reminds me of Napa 30 years ago. And for me, it's a 40 minute drive on a Sunday afternoon.

Anyway, to paint with such a broad brush, that all Cabs are "overpriced junk" only suggests to all that you are an uninformed and inexperienced wine consumer. Sorry to have to say that, but it's so. I hope you will open your mind a bit and experience what's out there.


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## Donz (Sep 20, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I purposely ignored the first anti-cab comment, as you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect your right to your opinion. I, however, don’t share it. It would be nice if you were respectful of others preferences instead of characterizing everyone who likes cab as “lemming training onto the bandwagon”.
> 
> My opinion is that Cabernet Sauvignon is the king of wine, and is what I prefer over all other varietals, though Petite Sirah gives it a hard run in my book. I buy and consume some of the finest cabs produced and make a fair amount of my own from grapes, and will continue to do so.



Well said.


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

CDrew said:


> Cabernet Sauvignon makes great wine. No lemmings needed to figure that out. It sounds like "Sideways" where the protagonist doesn't like Merlot for no good reason.
> 
> I also agree that Petite Sirah is almost always interesting and worth a try and second look. Even a little bit blended into Zinfandel makes a much better wine, but it stands on it's own just fine too. I want to make some of my own this year and hopefully a source and an open Saturday will coincide!
> 
> ...


Actually for the record I could tell all those apart. I'm very good at blind tasting. I just keep having mediocre hot out of balance $50 bottles of napa cab where it's like everyone is trying to copy everyone else.


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I purposely ignored the first anti-cab comment, as you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect your right to your opinion. I, however, don’t share it. It would be nice if you were respectful of others preferences instead of characterizing everyone who likes cab as “lemming training onto the bandwagon”.
> 
> My opinion is that Cabernet Sauvignon is the king of wine, and is what I prefer over all other varietals, though Petite Sirah gives it a hard run in my book. I buy and consume some of the finest cabs produced and make a fair amount of my own from grapes, and will continue to do so.


I never said all cabs are bad nor said everyone who drinks them is basically just jumping on a bandwagon. But I just don't like cab sav. It's a personal preference and I feel that cab franc is more balanced. I can take blended can sav but I don't like it straight I've never tasted one even a $500 bottle that I liked. I can guarantee that I have tasted enough wine and studied enough go be able to tell a wine apart from taste. Even if it's very subtle.


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Just remember That wagon didn’t form from nothing. Was a legitimate reason the lemmings hopped on.
> Plus Your generalizing all the cabs produced as a whole. But not all grapes are grown the same. And not all wine is made the same. That is blatant Grapeism. #CabSavLivesMatter


Again, I feel that it's gotten to the point where cab sav is uninspiring because it's the #1 grape. I support other people liking it I don't hate it i just don't like it's flavor profile personally. Now on to the actual topic


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## Johnd (Sep 20, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> His Frenchie is a 30gal. Apparently these Saint Martin french barrels take a while to give off the essence. Which is intentional so ya can reap the microO2 benefits in a smaller barrel just as ya would in a full. They toast their non-fullys to a “medium long” i(smaller flame over a longer time period) instead of med-plus to counter the “smaller volume/ less time needed” aspect that is typical of most smaller barrels.
> I know this because when I did my research Saint Martin was the only undersized french barrel I could get in the US and spoke with their US rep multiple times.



I just ordered my new 60 gallon barrel and, in the process, found another high quality French barrel available in the 30 gallon size, PM me if you're interested, and I'll share the contact info for the sales guy...........


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I just ordered my new 60 gallon barrel and, in the process, found another high quality French barrel available in the 30 gallon size, PM me if you're interested, and I'll share the contact info for the sales guy...........


I have a preference towards french oak, its more mellow, and suits most of the wines i make better. ive actually tested american oak and fubared a couple wines with over oaking.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 20, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Again, I feel that it's gotten to the point where cab sav is uninspiring because it's the #1 grape. I support other people liking it I don't hate it i just don't like it's flavor profile personally. Now on to the actual topic



Yes back on topic. Just anticipate a care package with bottles marked only by numbers! I need to put this guarantee to the test. I gotta know if you really are a 22yr old prodigy or not. 

For yeast this season I plan on giving renaissance Andante a whirl. Non H2s. High tolerances. Eats up 30% malic acid. And using on Paso Robles clone #8 , but #1 in my heart, Cabernet Sauvignon! Lol


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## Ajmassa (Sep 20, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I just ordered my new 60 gallon barrel and, in the process, found another high quality French barrel available in the 30 gallon size, PM me if you're interested, and I'll share the contact info for the sales guy...........



Thanks John I’d appreciate that. I haven’t ordered the Saint Martin yet and I will check this one out too.


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yes back on topic. Just anticipate a care package with bottles marked only by numbers! I need to put this guarantee to the test. I gotta know if you really are a 22yr old prodigy or not.
> 
> For yeast this season I plan on giving renaissance Andante a whirl. Non H2s. High tolerances. Eats up 30% malic acid. And using on Paso Robles clone #8 , but #1 in my heart, Cabernet Sauvignon! Lol


My 2 go to yeasts are Rc212 and BM4x4. i would probably use QA23 for my whites. Since it adds fruity notes that i would want in a white wine.


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## Gypsy509 (Sep 21, 2018)

Thanks for all the info on the different yeast strains. We decided to go with the d254. 
We get the grapes from Papagni growers in Ca. Pick up next Saturday from the distributor.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 21, 2018)

Gypsy509 said:


> Thanks for all the info on the different yeast strains. We decided to go with the d254.
> We get the grapes from Papagni growers in Ca. Pick up next Saturday from the distributor.



Have fun with the crush. Hope you have help. Are you getting lugs or bulk?


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## Gypsy509 (Sep 22, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Have fun with the crush. Hope you have help. Are you getting lugs or bulk?


We ordered 28 boxes of 6# each. I'm not sure what a lug is?


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## meadmaker1 (Sep 22, 2018)

reposted from photo thread.
Are these not lugs.
The term would certainly apply if you had to lug one around


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## mainshipfred (Sep 22, 2018)

Gypsy509 said:


> We ordered 28 boxes of 6# each. I'm not sure what a lug is?



Typically 36 lb boxes. Sometines 42 lb.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 22, 2018)

Gypsy509 said:


> Thanks for all the info on the different yeast strains. We decided to go with the d254.
> We get the grapes from Papagni growers in Ca. Pick up next Saturday from the distributor.



I've not done a ton of batches, but have done 4 PS and all with D254. I've been happy with every one of 'em.


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## jgareri (Sep 22, 2018)

Going to be using D254 on my old vine zinfandel this year. Hopefully it works out well


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## Gypsy509 (Sep 23, 2018)

Gypsy509 said:


> We ordered 28 boxes of 6# each. I'm not sure what a lug is?


Whoops I meant 28 boxes of 36# each not 6....lol


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## mainshipfred (Sep 23, 2018)

Gypsy509 said:


> Whoops I meant 28 boxes of 36# each not 6....lol



Thank goodness, if you were making 70 gallons with 168 lbs of grapes it might have been kind of thin. LOL


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