# An American Marzen



## jswordy

This is probably the last possible week, being so far down heah in the South, that I can get away with a naturally temp-controlled lager ferment, so I have boiled up my version of Marzen and I have it in a 54-degree water bath that is on the concrete floor of my root cellar. 

Next up will be to lager it for 3-4 weeks and then see if I can get the bottles to last all the way through until October, when conditions will again get right for a true to form natural Marzen again.

If it doesn't turn out, I am SOL on a natural fermentation for the year. Wish me luck!


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## jswordy

I checked it yesterday afternoon and it is slowly bubbling. Perfect. It will hit 87 here today, so I hope that water bath and the root cellar keep temps down in the 50s inside the fermenter! I think I'll be good on it, but I would have been better off last week. 

Glad it is not in the house, too, since the root cellar smells like rotten eggs (normal, but not something the wife would like in the house).


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## RevA

Hi Jim,

Looks good. Any possibility of getting your recipe?


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## jswordy

Let's wait and see if it works out first. LOL....


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## Mismost

I bought a brand new freezer and temp control for my beer making...I was so excited to be able to control temps. Then one of my meat freezers dies, I shot a couple of deer, went fishing, and friends gave a us a 4H pig project...new freezer is full already and the garden looks like it will be a bumper crop this year.

Reckon I'll just have to drink wine with my pork and beans!

Ohhh... the last beer I did was a Kolsch. With Joe working my brain on tweaking wine ideas....I pitched the zest from a couple of oranges in the bucket. I called it a Kolschwerks Orange and it's nice, light, crisp and refreshing...finally made a beer my wife likes!

Looking for cheap used fridge for the shop and beer making.


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## jswordy

Mismost said:


> I bought a brand new freezer and temp control for my beer making...I was so excited to be able to control temps. Then one of my meat freezers dies, I shot a couple of deer, went fishing, and friends gave a us a 4H pig project...new freezer is full already and the garden looks like it will be a bumper crop this year.
> 
> Reckon I'll just have to drink wine with my pork and beans!
> 
> Ohhh... the last beer I did was a Kolsch. With Joe working my brain on tweaking wine ideas....I pitched the zest from a couple of oranges in the bucket. I called it a Kolschwerks Orange and it's nice, light, crisp and refreshing...finally made a beer my wife likes!
> 
> Looking for cheap used fridge for the shop and beer making.



To me, it would not be a legit Marzen if I used a freezer and temp control. I am interested in natural temp control of the ferment.

http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/M%E4rzen.html


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## Mismost

jswordy said:


> To me, it would not be a legit Marzen if I used a freezer and temp control. I am interested in natural temp control of the ferment.
> 
> http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/M%E4rzen.html



Yes Sir, I am interested too. Just ain't gonna happen here in South Texas. We have warm, hot, and hotter....then Summer gets here!

Temp control is just the next step I want to make to try and make better beer. As a side note, I finished out my time in the Army in Germany. It was the memories of those beers that started me brewing and then wine making. Just never really liked BMC industrial American beers even when they were free!


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## jswordy

Mismost said:


> Yes Sir, I am interested too. Just ain't gonna happen here in South Texas. We have warm, hot, and hotter....then Summer gets here!
> 
> Temp control is just the next step I want to make to try and make better beer. As a side note, I finished out my time in the Army in Germany. It was the memories of those beers that started me brewing and then wine making. Just never really liked BMC industrial American beers even when they were free!



My root cellar is beneath my limestone sided house. It is 65 down there in August when it is 95-plus outside. It's where I store my wine overflow from the Vinotemp.

I'm the other way. I have made wine for years, it is my preferred drink, only made beer for the past year or so. As a sideline, I can make my wine equipment do double duty and still produce great beers. I do not want to become an equipment addict like so many friends I have who are home brewers. If I am going to sink $1,500 to sky's the limit into beer equipment, I'll just go out and buy my beer and save myself a lot of work. Plenty of beer challenges available without spending lots of money.


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## jswordy

Tasted a bit fruity before it went into lagering. I know now I could have done better in my yeast choice; beginner's mistake. We'll see how it is on the other side of lagering. Lager's a whole nother world, especially without the equipment to make it nice and predictable.

Next up is a super-easy British Golden Ale using all extract. I just want to get something to drink in the bottles with this one.


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## Mismost

I always do taste tests as I move through the process and it never tastes like I think it should! Too sweet, too malty, too hoppy...it amazes me how much the the carb effect changes the flavor of the beer. And serving temps too...I did a Porter that tasted like 3 different beers depending on the temps it was served at...which is OK with me.

I got into wine because I could make my beer equipment do double duty. Besides, it takes a lot of beer to make good wine...gotta have something to sip on for a couple of years!


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## RevA

I started brewing to learn enough of the fermentation process to make wine and ended up making both because its fun. If I could justify the expense I'd get temp control for lager fermentation, but as it doesn't carry over very well to winemaking, I make lagers in the deepest part of winter and California common and ale the rest of the year. IMHO I think layering will help take away the fruity taste...


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## ceeaton

jswordy said:


> Tasted a bit fruity before it went into lagering. I know now I could have done better in my yeast choice; beginner's mistake. We'll see how it is on the other side of lagering. Lager's a whole nother world, especially without the equipment to make it nice and predictable.
> 
> Next up is a super-easy British Golden Ale using all extract. I just want to get something to drink in the bottles with this one.



I agree with RevA. Excessive fruitiness and diacetyl will be reabsorbed by the yeast as a food source as it lagers. When I had a working lagering refrigerator, that was a pretty normal phenomenon. I had a temperature control and used W308 exclusively. I used to raise the temperature slightly after primary fermentation was complete and it acted as a diacetyl rest and would absorb any of the "buttery" effects of that yeast. Only would take a week or so, then I carefully plunged it down to about 33*F for a few months.

Hope your batch turns out great!


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## jswordy

Thanks, guys. I did not detect any diacetyl flavor in it. I was hoping the fruit would be absorbed; it did not seem to be an overwhelming flavor. We shall see. I used Saflager S-23, and saw later that brewing forums are down on it. They seem to like S-189 better. Using a dry yeast because I don't want to be a slave to brew days.

RevA, I started the other way, wine first. So I am used to waiting around for a result! 

I should be safe at 3-4 weeks to bottle carb, I think. If not I have another packet of yeast. Could I just take a small sample, let it come to room temp, and add sugar to see if it is still viable before bottling?


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## jswordy

Mismost said:


> I always do taste tests as I move through the process and it never tastes like I think it should! Too sweet, too malty, too hoppy...it amazes me how much the the carb effect changes the flavor of the beer. And serving temps too...I did a Porter that tasted like 3 different beers depending on the temps it was served at...which is OK with me.
> 
> I got into wine because I could make my beer equipment do double duty. Besides, it takes a lot of beer to make good wine...gotta have something to sip on for a couple of years!



Yeah, the beer is all labor up front, while the wine is all labor on the back end of the process. I am just trying hard to avoid more equipment around. I have a fruit press that I have not even had time to use yet, and I've had it a year now. 

Still, for $200 plus the controller, I could have a brand new lagering freezer....

AHHHH! See how that happens?


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## Mismost

jswordy said:


> Yeah, the beer is all labor up front, while the wine is all labor on the back end of the process. I am just trying hard to avoid more equipment around. I have a fruit press that I have not even had time to use yet, and I've had it a year now.
> 
> Still, for $200 plus the controller, I could have a brand new lagering freezer....
> 
> AHHHH! See how that happens?



Yeah BUT...freezer with temp control is very multi use...fermentation, lagering, cold crashing wines/beer, keg/beer cooler...heck, in pinch you can even use to store frozen stuff like meat and dead bodies! At least that's how I sold the deal to my red head!


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## RevA

Three to four weeks should still be fine to just prime and bottle, but testing is always best.
Din't know if you've ever tried this method before, but it works pretty well for me when I want to try something quikcly....
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/
Winemaking and brewing tend to easily help one hoard/collect equipment...


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## jswordy

Mismost said:


> Yeah BUT...freezer with temp control is very multi use...fermentation, lagering, cold crashing wines/beer, keg/beer cooler...heck, in pinch you can even use to store frozen stuff like meat and dead bodies! At least that's how I sold the deal to my red head!



And now it's full of deer! Which is good... I have 200 lbs of deer meat, myself. Since I dispersed my goat herd, it is all we eat as a staple meat.

Not ready to jump in yet. I still have wine equipment I have never used, including a vacuum pump I bought from Runningwolf a couple years ago.

But I see a Haier 5 CF freezer at Wally is $169...

ARRRGH! See how it starts?


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## jswordy

RevA said:


> Three to four weeks should still be fine to just prime and bottle, but testing is always best.
> Din't know if you've ever tried this method before, but it works pretty well for me when I want to try something quikcly....
> http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/
> Winemaking and brewing tend to easily help one hoard/collect equipment...



I have seen an abbreviated version of that method on the net. This is my first lager, so we will see what happens first. I do agree with the guy, the basic reason is to clear the beer, though there are obvious benefits to aging even ales. Cold-clearing wines has been in my bag of tricks for some time.

I really should jump in on some kind of unit, though, so I don't have to transfer into gallon jugs to use the refrigerator I have now....

ARRGH! See how it starts?


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## RevA

jswordy said:


> I have seen an abbreviated version of that method on the net. This is my first lager, so we will see what happens first. I do agree with the guy, the basic reason is to clear the beer, though there are obvious benefits to aging even ales. Cold-clearing wines has been in my bag of tricks for some time.
> 
> I really should jump in on some kind of unit, though, so I don't have to transfer into gallon jugs to use the refrigerator I have now....
> 
> ARRGH! See how it starts?


I think that's the problem we all face, I'm saving for a BIG keerzer, a fruitpress, a few oak barrels and...
Which is probably why I can't seem to get rich...


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## jswordy

RevA said:


> I think that's the problem we all face, I'm saving for a BIG keerzer, a fruitpress, a few oak barrels and...
> Which is probably why I can't seem to get rich...



Hahaha, I am so far away from rich that not only can't I "seem to get rich," I actually CAN'T! 

I'd settle for just seeming to... BUT NO!


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## jswordy

It should be about time to let this warm up, prime it and bottle it. It does not seem to be clearing as well as I had hoped, even with Brewer's Clarity in it. Heavy solids have fallen but it has a haze. I'll have to have a taste and see. Maybe this weekend I can get it bottled.


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## jswordy

My first lager is in the house from my farm shop fridge, transferred to a clean carboy and warming up for priming and bottling this weekend. Right now, it tastes remarkably like Samuel Adams Boston Lager and has about the same IBU. I won't call it a clone, but it does taste a lot like it as of now.

As predicted by the more expert folks here *(thank you!)*, the fruitiness is gone now. Since it appears a success, here's the recipe.

*AMERICAN MARZEN EXTRACT RECIPE (with conversions for all-grain)*

6 gallon starting boil, yielded about 4 to 4 1/2 gallons to bottle for me.

*In bag:*

1.5 lb. Weyerman CaraRed
2 lb. Belgian Bisquit

*Steep* 30 minutes (All-grain: add to mash)

*Remove from heat. 

Add:*

6 lb. Maris Otter LME (All-grain: Converts to ~ 8 pounds grain)
1 oz. Centennial hops (bittering)

*Boil 45 minutes

Add:*

1 lb. table sugar
4 oz maltodextrine (All-grain: Skip this addition)
1 oz. Centennial hops (aroma)

*Boil 15 minutes.*

Remove and cool. Once wort is cool to yeast pitching temp, transfer to fermenter and...

*Add: 
*
1 vial Clarity Ferm (Brewer's Clarity) - Optional. Clears & makes it low gluten.

Safale S-23 Lager Yeast (this is what I used, sprinkled on top; use your preferred yeast)

*Ferment in a cool place* or using a water bath or refrigeration to achieve 50-54 degrees liquid temperature.

When krausen falls and fermentation slows (it took me a week), *transfer to carboy or gallon jugs* and refrigerate for lagering. (I simply stuck mine in the fridge in gallon jugs.)

*Lager 4-8 weeks.*

Prime and bottle (I'll use 1 oz. table sugar per gallon), or transfer to keg and carbonate.

Notes: 

1. ABV: 5% (German Marzen typically 5.8-6.3%; Samuel Adams Boston Lager, 4.9%)

2. Calories per 12 ounce serving: 168

3. By German law, a Marzen can only be made October through April, when temperatures are favorable in Germany.


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## RevA

It looks great! Brewing that tomorrow!


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## LoveTheWine

Hey Jim, I make a Marzen/Oktoberfest every year too! Mine is all grain and a triple decoction mash.
Did you use gelatin to clear? Works every time for me. 

Here are some pics of my brew day and my assistant brewer.


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## jswordy

Nope, I use Clarity Ferm (Brewer's Clarity) to make it gluten free by US government standards. All my beers get it now.

Do you have a brew day uniform like your assistant is wearing? If not, you need one. Awesome.

I don't do all-grain because I do not want more equipment, so I am limited by my equipment. I like your sparge setup.


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## LoveTheWine

jswordy said:


> Nope, I use Clarity Ferm (Brewer's Clarity) to make it gluten free by US government standards. All my beers get it now.
> 
> Do you have a brew day uniform like your assistant is wearing? If not, you need one. Awesome.
> 
> I don't do all-grain because I do not want more equipment, so I am limited by my equipment. I like your sparge setup.



I need a Guinness onesie! I started all grain with BIAB which required no more equipment but drastically improved my beer.


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## jswordy

LoveTheWine said:


> I need a Guinness onesie! I started all grain with BIAB which required no more equipment but drastically improved my beer.



Yep, BIAB is a good way. I'm happy. Got pro brewers telling me to enter contests, it must taste half good.


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## jswordy

OK, lager guys, help me out. One week in, opened a bottle, got CO2 escape, smoke in neck, beer is flat. My ales all carb well in 5-7 days, what do you think?

5 oz table sugar in one cup water in 4-1/2 gallons beer. Been at room temp from bottling onward.

Tastes great, nice and clear - just flat.


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## RevA

Hi,
Give it another week or two, should improve. Lagers tend to take longer, in all aspects. (Probably why most Homebrewers generally brew ale)


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## jswordy

RevA said:


> Hi,
> Give it another week or two, should improve. Lagers tend to take longer, in all aspects. (Probably why most Homebrewers generally brew ale)



Thanks. It threw lots of lees in the fridge so I didn't think the yeast was dead. Still, the reassurance counts for a lot. Helluva lot more work, though more equipment would solve a lot of that (of course). 

I'm going to try an American ale yeast on my next ale. It is said to be very clean.


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## RevA

You could always just ferment ale yeast at near lager temps, gives it a more lager like taste. Also takes a bit longer than normal ale, but not as long as a lager.


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## ceeaton

jswordy said:


> Thanks. It threw lots of lees in the fridge so I didn't think the yeast was dead. Still, the reassurance counts for a lot. Helluva lot more work, though more equipment would solve a lot of that (of course).
> 
> I'm going to try an American ale yeast on my next ale. It is said to be very clean.



I agree with @RevA. All of my lagers have taken double if not triple time of ales to carbonate in the bottle. I remember a batch (a really long time ago, like in the late 1990s) that I made for my older brother as a Christmas gift. I left a month for it to carbonate in the bottle, and when we opened one up after I gave him the gift (wrapped one case, left the other cold), same thing you got, smoke in the neck, little if any carbonation, and you could taste the residual sugar from the refrigerated wort I had added to carbonate. A month or so later when it hung out at higher temps, he really liked the lager (as did his beer making friends), so in the end it was a good gift.

Ultimately it helped me noddle that I had to part with some cash to get corny kegs and force carbonate my lager batches. After that I got a device so I could bottle off of the keg when I wanted to be more mobile with my beer.


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## jswordy

RevA said:


> You could always just ferment ale yeast at near lager temps, gives it a more lager like taste. Also takes a bit longer than normal ale, but not as long as a lager.



I have an old chest type Coke cooler. I ferment the ale at room temp (70), let it settle out a week, bottle condition a week, then put the bottles in the Coke cooler. It has a similar effect to lagering, I think.


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## jswordy

ceeaton said:


> I agree with @RevA. All of my lagers have taken double if not triple time of ales to carbonate in the bottle. I remember a batch (a really long time ago, like in the late 1990s) that I made for my older brother as a Christmas gift. I left a month for it to carbonate in the bottle, and when we opened one up after I gave him the gift (wrapped one case, left the other cold), same thing you got, smoke in the neck, little if any carbonation, and you could taste the residual sugar from the refrigerated wort I had added to carbonate. A month or so later when it hung out at higher temps, he really liked the lager (as did his beer making friends), so in the end it was a good gift.
> 
> Ultimately it helped me noddle that I had to part with some cash to get corny kegs and force carbonate my lager batches. After that I got a device so I could bottle off of the keg when I wanted to be more mobile with my beer.



Thanks. With ya on all but the extra equipment. I can see where that all would be nice, but I really don't need more stuff in my life. I like ales, they make use of what I already have, so it's no biggie. This one is just an experimental lager.


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## ceeaton

jswordy said:


> ... I like ales, ...



That was the side benefit of the "extra" equipment. I'd brew a batch of ale (bitter/pale ale/esb etc) on Saturday morning, rack it on Wednesday, keg it on Friday, and be drinking it when I made the next batch on Saturday. At that time I was reusing a White Labs English Dry Ale yeast that just motored through a batch in a few days, and dropped out in a few more. I found a great place to buy some Maris Otter on the cheap ($45 delivered for 55lbs). Did that for a few years in a row (hit my maximums each year here in PA) and gained 40 lbs. Only make a few batches of beer a year, mostly in the fall when it's cool for Christmas time sharing.

Wine making has made me lazier than I used to be. Soon will reach perfection when someone will have to pour my drink and position the straw so I can enjoy with as little movement as possible.


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## RevA

jswordy said:


> I have an old chest type Coke cooler. I ferment the ale at room temp (70), let it settle out a week, bottle condition a week, then put the bottles in the Coke cooler. It has a similar effect to lagering, I think.


Pretty much the same effect yes


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## jswordy

It's carbed. Hoppier than I really like, have to crank down the hop additions next time. Otherwise good. Other tasters have liked it.


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## jswordy

Cracked open a Marzen after bottling 6 1/2 cases of beer Monday, thereby declaring my independence from InBev!

The hops have mellowed more now. Nicely drinkable. The wife loves the stuff...


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## jswordy

Early review from a taste tester: "Bloody brilliant beer my friend!!! You need to brew 20 more cases asap!"


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