# Just do Kits?



## bkisel (Jul 22, 2013)

Do any of you experienced wine makers just do kits? There is something about keeping it, wine making, simple that appeals to me. Also, there seems to be enough brands and variety of kits available to keep one busy for years on end.

Or, must one move on from kits because that is just the way it is? What would be the appeal?

Thanks...


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## kevinlfifer (Jul 22, 2013)

I only do kits for grape wine. But I do Skeeter, and a variation on that with left over freezer fruit.

Both adhere to the KISS system.


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## jamesngalveston (Jul 22, 2013)

I have only done one kit...and it was a white zin, (for my sister).
I can buy that stuff all day long, if I wanted a grape wine.
To be....Tasting a wine made from fruit of any kind is the appeal.
Go into a wine store, tell them you want some wine made from figs.
they will just laugh more then likely.
But if you tasted mine...you would be tossing those kits. and looking for figs. Maybe not if your a grape wine person.


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## DoctorCAD (Jul 22, 2013)

I may be the exact opposite of James, as I really only like grape wines. The rest, just a taste here or there is good enough to keep me happy, but I always come back to grapes.

Done lots of kits, lots of concentrates, lots of fruits and one pure juice.


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## jamesngalveston (Jul 22, 2013)

I will say this...even if a kit is 150, and you get 30 bottles of good wine.
its a lot cheaper then buying 30 at 15 to 20 bucks each...for sure.


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## tingo (Jul 22, 2013)

I agree with the doc. Grapes are it for me. But I hardly ever describe to the KISS method myself. Im not knocking it, it just isnt for me. Im more of a MIAPAP, make it as precise as possible. Fresh grapes allow me to have control over certain factors. But then again I am limited to seasons where you are able to ferment year round.


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## shoebiedoo (Jul 22, 2013)

I think Making wine should be what you want it to be, Fun. If you're happy with kit's I don't see any reason to move on. On the other hand if you find a supplier for Juice buckets it doesn't hurt to try one. they're usually under $60 so if you end up like it, all the better. if you don't then you haven't wasted too much time as I would dare say you will drink the wine anyway.


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## bkisel (Jul 22, 2013)

shoebiedoo said:


> I think Making wine should be what you want it to be, Fun. If you're happy with kit's I don't see any reason to move on. On the other hand if you find a supplier for Juice buckets it doesn't hurt to try one. they're usually under $60 so if you end up like it, all the better. if you don't then you haven't wasted too much time as I would dare say you will drink the wine anyway.



Would that be ~$60.00 for 23L of juice? What would the yeast, fining and clearing agents cost. Could you make a wine on the level of a high end kit that you're paying $100.00+? I'm not cheap but I am frugal; that would be a substantial savings over both store bought and high end kit.

Thanks...


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## Sammyk (Jul 22, 2013)

WE do both but do not care for straight grape. We do some muscadine in the fall from our grapes. If we can get fresh fruit at a decent price I like to make fresh fruit wines. But we have found that we really like Orchard Breezin a "mist" type wine. If you add about sugar up front, about 4 to 5 pounds, it raises the ABV. Everything is included, kmeta, sorbate, bentonite, more fining agents and fruit pack. The Cornucopia from Amazon includes corks, labels and sleeves and most of them are really good plus all of the above in the Orchard Breezin'.

Check out this thread
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f84/cornucopia-2-kits-we-love-sale-priced-amazon-39228/

We both adore the coconut and the Strawberry Merlot. Our grown daughter buys them for us to make for her and her friends too.


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## BobF (Jul 22, 2013)

Nothing wrong with kits at all. All of my grape wines are kits. I have an orchard and a desire to experiment, but really good true wines can be made from kits - and a lot easier than fresh unless you live in an area where your favorite varieties are being grown in quantity.


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## shoebiedoo (Jul 22, 2013)

bkisel said:


> Would that be ~$60.00 for 23L of juice? What would the yeast, fining and clearing agents cost. Could you make a wine on the level of a high end kit that you're paying $100.00+? I'm not cheap but I am frugal; that would be a substantial savings over both store bought and high end kit.
> 
> Thanks...


I'm not trying to sway you at all but I'm saying Juice buckets, if you can get them in your area, are another option for sure. while I don't look at cost real close, the most impressive batch I've made is a 6 gallon batch of Barolo that initially cost $54. I added a grape pack for a cost of $20 and with oak and everything else I would say my total investment was less than $90 totally, probably less. I have a Malbec with even less than that (using raisins instead of a grape pack) that's really good too. depending on where you are, this is a good alternative. it all depends on what's available to you. I'm sure others in this board will help you with availability, depending on where you live. the caveat is, it a seasonal proposition (fall and spring).


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## vernsgal (Jul 23, 2013)

I have only done kits for the past few years. I must have hit the 50th kit mark by now.Spagnol's has a yearly sale that I usually pick up 12-15 per year. I have to say, this year I have started on fruit as well. Will continue with my kits
( most of them tweeked to some extent) maybe just not so many. lol


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## tonyt (Jul 23, 2013)

I only do kits. 40 so far in five years. I have five or six that I do every year and another six per year that I try new kits. I usually do a few limited kits when they come out. I have a long list of kits I still want to try. Just did my first Cabernet this year and still have not done a Merlot, but one day I will.


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## TheGoodLife (Jul 23, 2013)

I just do kits. I've tried the Skeeter Pee and Dragon's Blood but they're just not my cup of tea.


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## Bartman (Jul 23, 2013)

I think you will find most folks on this forum, just do kits or do mostly non-grape fruit wines, including those who have there own fruit sources. Not many commercial-level winery folks on here, and fresh grapes are hard to come by unless you live near the source or have a good local supplier. I am fortunate that in Dallas, Fine Vine Wines coordinates shipments of fresh grapes from California each October, so I can get fresh grapes in small quantities halfway across the country.

Kits are usually seen as the 'gateway drug' to winemaking  because they are so simple and hard to mess up, plus they include all the stuff you need in one reasonably priced package. I had made about 30 kits before I 'graduated' to frozen juice buckets which can be even *simpler* than kits (depending on the brand - I have made only Mosti Mondiale's which are pre-balanced and pre-inoculated with yeast). Then I jumped to fresh grapes, but still make kits and frozen juice too. The appeal to me is similar to the difference between making a cake from a box mix or making it from scratch: both can be delicious, but I am much prouder of something I have made from 'scratch'.


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## GaDawg (Jul 23, 2013)

I live in West Georgia, if I want a Merlot I make a kit or I don't get my Merlot! I only make kits, I also only make what I (and the ladies) like to drink


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## MrKevin (Jul 23, 2013)

I also only do kits, but I and dying to make wine from fresh grapes and as soon as I can figure out a way to get them to Alaska without costing me hundreds of dollars in shipping alone, I will. 

Kevin


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## kevinlfifer (Jul 23, 2013)

I see that the most of us in this thread only do kits, not necessarily because we are adamant that that's all we want to do, but because of convenience. I for one have wanted to try Luva Bella juice but my schedule has never allowed me to make the run. As for fresh grapes, I would try it but again, getting them would be a hassle. That's where it supposed to bee fun concept kicks in. So, until getting raw materials other than kits becomes simpler, I will remain a kit guy.


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## Turock (Jul 23, 2013)

In 24 years of winemaking, I've never made a kit wine. We cut our teeth on grapes. If you just want to make kits, no problem. There's no need to do other wines if you don't care to. But there is nothing like a well-made fruit wine because they are hard to find in wine shops and wineries.

There's just something very gratifying about making a wine from fruit that tastes EXACTLY like the fruit.


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## Sammyk (Jul 23, 2013)

Turock hit the nail on the head for us. We love fruit wines from fresh made fruit because it is not something that is readily available to buy. Fresh fruit it is not always available or the price is too high to buy fresh. Until we made muscadine from our own grapes we rarely if ever drank wine. But the muscadine and our blueberries got us hooked on drinking and making wine.
The mist type kits with bumped up sugar also fits what we like to drink, not too dry and not too overly sweet by bumping the sugar.


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## FABulousWines (Jul 23, 2013)

Although I am relatively new to this, I consider myself a kit guy. I agree with the sentiment that you can spend a lifetime in the kit realm and never run out of things to try, especially if you consider all the tweaks that are possible. The Argentine Malbec I have now aging already meets or exceeds many of the commercial Mendoza Valley Malbecs I have tried. It is quite exciting.

However, I am not one to say never. I am curious enough to try just about anything once just for giggles. I guess that is how I got into wine making in the first place! I currently have a DB going, just to see what all the fuss is about. I will no doubt at some point try a "from scratch" fruit wine or two.

But for the most part, I think I will be quire content with doing high to medium end kits.


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## JohnT (Jul 23, 2013)

I do not do kits. 

When I started winemaking, kits were not nearly what they are today. Quite simply, 25 years ago, they tasted nasty. 

I had the chance to taste some of the kit wines being produced by some of the folks here and was shocked to see how far kits have come. Just Plain Shocked! I also have started to see (over the last couple of years) that kits now directly compete with fresh grapes wines in a number of wine competitions.

I now find that it is a great comfort to know that I can fall back on kits when I retire. Kits mean that I can continue winemaking until the day I die. I can also continue with this obsession no matter where or when I might retire. 

To sum up, I plan on doing the exact opposite of what most expect. I started with whole grapes and will "evolve" to doing kits. Ain't dat a kikindapants?


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## vernsgal (Jul 23, 2013)

I can't wait til next year when my 1st fruit wines are ready! Especially my blackberry


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## wineforfun (Jul 23, 2013)

I am pretty new to winemaking also. I just made my first kit. Only reason was because I wanted a zinfandel and that was the only way I was going to get it. 
I have mostly been making dragon blood, welches concentrate, mead and other specialty wines. I don't like getting stuck on doing just one type.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 27, 2013)

shoebiedoo said:


> I think Making wine should be what you want it to be, Fun. If you're happy with kit's I don't see any reason to move on. On the other hand if you find a supplier for Juice buckets it doesn't hurt to try one. they're usually under $60 so if you end up like it, all the better. if you don't then you haven't wasted too much time as I would dare say you will drink the wine anyway.


Agreed. If you're happy with kits, keep doing it!


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## Geronimo (Jul 27, 2013)

I'm sticking to kits for red wine. I know a few vintners and have read a few books. These people learn their grapes over many years of experience and adjust to the harvest. The kits are all that, but we don't need to know the soil, roots, climate etc. 

Juice buckets are likely just a crap shoot. Sure you can do some analysis and make some adjustments but if it was that easy we'd all be down at the bulk produce store buying up lugs of their grapes. Why not? 

For anything but red wine, I don't feel like I need to produce a wine that meets or exceeds a comparable store wine. But the kits still shine for many of these specialty wines. A friend just used a low cost white kit for a base and added blueberry Vintners Harvest fruit puree. A very nice blueberry wine for around $100 / 6 gallons and very little effort.


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## FABulousWines (Jul 27, 2013)

Geronimo makes a very good point. I have visited a lot of local wineries and had even thought about starting a second career as a vintner. However, many of the vintners I have spoken to who have started this sort of thing in semi retirement have all stated that they underestimated the amount of time and cost for the upkeep of a good vineyard. That is just not what I want right now; maybe if I was younger and healthier.

One of the real selling points for me on kits is the ability to get such a diverse variety of great vintages from growing regions all over the world.


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## saramc (Jul 27, 2013)

bkisel said:


> Would that be ~$60.00 for 23L of juice? What would the yeast, fining and clearing agents cost. Could you make a wine on the level of a high end kit that you're paying $100.00+? I'm not cheap but I am frugal; that would be a substantial savings over both store bought and high end kit.
> 
> Thanks...



Check out Walkers Fruit Basket in NY. They have a wide variety of 5 gallon hot packed 100% fruit & grape juices, or if you are within driving distance you can even get gallon jugs. The container is dosed with k-meta, acid and brix checked, documented on label. I kept a 5-gallon container in cool basement for seven months before I used it and it was still at same brix, etc & made the best rhubarb wine ever! They typically provide a yeast pkg and instructions. You pay $25-35 shipping for a 5-gal container. Amazing stuff. Short of using bentonite preferment, big bag less than $5, I never spend $ on fining agents, proper temperature mgt, serial racking and aging has ALWAYS taken care of clearing. 
You simply need some pectic enzyme, k-meta, yeast nutrient & sorbate(if backsweetening)..talking $10 if that and you have extra for addl batches. A pkg of SuperKleer is $2-4. MANY commercial wineries buy juice from Walker's and win awards with their wines.

And www.homewinery.com has a great assortment of 100% grape/fruit concentrates. Very budget friendly and available by the pint for one gallon batches or half gallon jug for up to a five gallon batch. Beats frozen grocery store concentrate hands down, plus cultivar selection is amazing!! Watermelon, pineapple, passionfruit, blueberry, plus many grapes, etc.


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## Marauderer (Jul 27, 2013)

I have been doing wine kits for a couple of years now and really like the quality of wine that it makes. I have so many other things I like to do that I don't want to devote anymore time to my wine making.

The only thing that could make me do other than a kit is if I could find a recipe and the ingredients to make a "Sauterne" wine. Anyone know of one??


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## BobF (Jul 28, 2013)

Great point Barry and exactly where I've been for a while. Other interests are taking priority and I'm not sad about it.


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## Geronimo (Jul 28, 2013)

Marauderer said:


> The only thing that could make me do other than a kit is if I could find a recipe and the ingredients to make a "Sauterne" wine. Anyone know of one??



Sauternes is a region in Bordeaux known for it's white Muscadelle/Muscat dessert wines with unique flavors due to noble rot. Look at the bottom of this map. I think what you're asking for is a rare white that can costs hundreds of $$$ from this region, correct? Since they fight to produce every drop of that wine, I can't imagine they'd ever source the juice to kit makers. The noble rot is extremely hard to predict so production is really spotty.

http://www.terroir-france.com/picts/bordeaux_map.gif


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## cimbaliw (Jul 28, 2013)

BK, there probably is no need to make a command decision between kits and traditional wine making. Eight months ago I also was trying to "do the math," now I just make wine. I do mostly kits because of time and convenience. 

I'm not sure, at this time, that the extra work involved with fruit fits my schedule although I trust everyone here when they quote a more robust experience with both taste and personal satisfaction. On the other hand straying from kits to make simple stuff like skeeter pee, Dragon's Blood and Ed Wort's Apfelwein has taught me a lot and expanded my comfort zone. The Joeswine tweaks are further expanding my arsenal. I encourage you to kick back and enjoy the journey and answers to such questions will present themselves.


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## Marauderer (Jul 28, 2013)

Geronimo said:


> Sauternes is a region in Bordeaux known for it's white Muscadelle/Muscat dessert wines with unique flavors due to noble rot. Look at the bottom of this map. I think what you're asking for is a rare white that can costs hundreds of $$$ from this region, correct? Since they fight to produce every drop of that wine, I can't imagine they'd ever source the juice to kit makers. The noble rot is extremely hard to predict so production is really spotty.
> 
> http://www.terroir-france.com/picts/bordeaux_map.gif


Geronimo, You are absolutely correct. Any Sauterne you buy that isn't a premium usually has a very poor taste to me. I remember back in the late 60's and early 70's everyone was making a Sauterne. E&G, and all the other inexpensive producers had one. I had a Swiss Fondue recipe that used Sauterne and it has really spoiled me. I have been using my Liebfraumilch that I have been making from kits and it has turned out really well. I take a long time on a kit, about three months or more and age a minimum of 12 months and it is very smooth.


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## Marauderer (Jul 28, 2013)

BobF said:


> Great point Barry and exactly where I've been for a while. Other interests are taking priority and I'm not sad about it.



Bob, it sounds like you are really enjoying life's journey!!


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## jensmith (Jul 28, 2013)

Never did a kit. One day I will get rich and run out of free or cheep fruit and try one. Kinda hard to pay $60-150 for a kit when I can make a super nice fruit wine for $10 a five galleon batch.... Or even if I pay for fruit it still cost me less then $50 a batch. Besides, I don't like most store bought grape wines. Most kits are just grapes, or flavored grape wine. I do want to try a kit, just out of curiosity! I have plenty of freinds who would dispose of anything I did not like


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## RCGoodin (Jul 28, 2013)

jensmith said:


> Never did a kit. One day I will get rich and run out of free or cheep fruit and try one. Kinda hard to pay $60-150 for a kit when I can make a super nice fruit wine for $10 a five galleon batch.... Or even if I pay for fruit it still cost me less then $50 a batch. Besides, I don't like most store bought grape wines. Most kits are just grapes, or flavored grape wine. I do want to try a kit, just out of curiosity! I have plenty of freinds who would dispose of anything I did not like


 
You want a great kit that is affordable, try this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ELJK1E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I just bottled this after a year in the carboy. My wife said it's the best I've made yet and I've made plenty of them. I'm on a subscription with Amazon, so this kit cost me about $75.00. You can't get the 15% subscription anymore. I think today it's 5%. Still a good deal. The cheapest commercial Amarone, in my area, is $47.00 a bottle. A friend said he is going to pay for the next kit, I will process it, and we'll spit the bottles. My cost gets very cheap for 15 bottles then.


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## Geronimo (Jul 28, 2013)

RCGoodin said:


> I just bottled this after a year in the carboy. My wife said it's the best I've made yet and I've made plenty of them. I'm on a subscription with Amazon, so this kit cost me about $75.00. You can't get the 15% subscription anymore. I think today it's 5%. Still a good deal. The cheapest commercial Amarone, in my area, is $47.00 a bottle. A friend said he is going to pay for the next kit, I will process it, and we'll spit the bottles. My cost gets very cheap for 15 bottles then.



Wow you're the first person I've ever heard actually taste a wine from one of these buckets. I wonder how they can do it? A 23 liter kit shipped for under $90 which is typically less than 16 liter (more like the 12 liter) kits.


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## Marauderer (Jul 28, 2013)

RCGoodin said:


> I just bottled this after a year in the carboy. My wife said it's the best I've made yet and I've made plenty of them.



RC, I am just like that. When I found out that each step wasn't time critical sometimes it just sits and clarifies while I am out and about for weeks.


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## RCGoodin (Jul 28, 2013)

Geronimo said:


> Wow you're the first person I've ever heard actually taste a wine from one of these buckets. I wonder how they can do it? A 23 liter kit shipped for under $90 which is typically less than 16 liter (more like the 12 liter) kits.


 
I'm fermenting my second Barbaresco. My first Barbaresco just turned 1 1/2 years in the bottle. I'd say it's as good as my expensive Stag's Leap Merlot. My wife is fine with all the whites I've done from Amazon also.

I think my next order from Amazon is going to be a Pinot Noir.

Also, check out their Ice Wine. I have Canadians stating it's as good as any $90 bottle in Canada.


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## cimbaliw (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks for the link RC, I've not tried a juice bucket yet and it looks like this will be the first! Gotta love the free shipping with Amazon Prime.

BC


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## RCGoodin (Jul 28, 2013)

cimbaliw said:


> Thanks for the link RC, I've not tried a juice bucket yet and it looks like this will be the first! Gotta love the free shipping with Amazon Prime.
> 
> BC


 
Yeah, with Prime you'll get it a couple days also. I used to get it tax free, but Arizona is now making Amazon charge tax. Oh well, it's still a good deal.

Sign up for the 5% subscription discount. You can cancel it later and still get the 5% off. Or, if you like the wine, have them send you a bucket every 6 months (you can adjust that also). Did I mention the kit comes with corks, labels, and foil tops?


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## WI_Wino (Jul 28, 2013)

cimbaliw said:


> Thanks for the link RC, I've not tried a juice bucket yet and it looks like this will be the first! Gotta love the free shipping with Amazon Prime.
> 
> BC



I have had decent luck with the amazon kits but you should note that the 23L buckets are not all juice. They are reconstituted concentrate.


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## Rocky (Jul 28, 2013)

WI_Wino said:


> I have had decent luck with the amazon kits but you should note that the 23L buckets are not all juice. They are reconstituted concentrate.


 
I have read the same thing about Mosti Modiale All Juice Original. That is why I no longer use that series.


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## cimbaliw (Jul 28, 2013)

Any 100% juice - juice bucket recommendations?


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## BobF (Jul 29, 2013)

Thinking aloud .... the buckets that are partly reconstituted concentrates are prolly done that way as a means to balance the buckets and achieve a reasonably consistent product for brix, acidity and overall body.


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## RCGoodin (Jul 29, 2013)

BobF said:


> Thinking aloud .... the buckets that are partly reconstituted concentrates are prolly done that way as a means to balance the buckets and achieve a reasonably consistent product for brix, acidity and overall body.


 

I've made plenty of these kits and they've all been more than acceptable. You can purchase the expensive ones, but they'll come out the same.


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## BobF (Jul 29, 2013)

That was my point ... concentrate isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depends on how much, etc.

There are two high-end kits sitting across the room. They both make great wine and get rave reviews. They both list "concentrate and/or grape juice" in the ingredients.

I have one pure juice bucket experience and it will likely be my last. Life's too short to have to fiddle and tweak just to make something drinkable. A little concentrate for good balance is a good thing.

With a well balanced base, your fiddling and tweaking can be focused on personalizing and refining rather than heroic measures to save the life of a bad wine.


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## WI_Wino (Jul 29, 2013)

BobF said:


> That was my point ... concentrate isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depends on how much, etc.
> 
> There are two high-end kits sitting across the room. They both make great wine and get rave reviews. They both list "concentrate and/or grape juice" in the ingredients.
> 
> ...



Agreed. if you have decent water then I don't think there is any reason to get the 23L kits when the same concentrate can be had in smaller volume (add your own water). You pay less for shipping and handling.


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## BobF (Jul 29, 2013)

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that a mostly concentrate kit or bucket are going to be equal. However, used judiciously, concentrate has a perfectly acceptable place in winemaking kits and juice buckets.

Nothing wrong with going the pure juice route either, just make sure you're not shooting yourself in the foot for something that doesn't really matter.

FWIW, I would gladly take perfectly balanced, perfectly sweetened grapes of my favorite varieties, all gently stomped by vineyard fairies with clean, disease-free feet!


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