# White Wines - Crisp taste



## ffemt128 (Apr 25, 2013)

I've made several white wines but I have yet been able to achieve the "crisp" taste of the commercial wines. We've made Sauv Blanc, Pinot Grigio, Reislings etc. What can be done to improve the taste and get that "crispness"?


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## ibglowin (Apr 25, 2013)

As an experiment you might start by checking the pH and TA of a wine you really like, then compare to one you have made that isn't "cutting it". If you find the commercial bottle has a much higher TA or lower pH then your on the road to making the wine more to your taste buds. You can always experiment with a bottle or even a couple of splits. Start by bringing the pH in line with the commercial bottle, then check the TA see if you like it. Then do the opposite, bring the TA in line, see if that does the trick. You may find it is one or the other or a meet in the middle type of thing. Use some Tartaric Acid (obviously)!


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## Turock (Apr 25, 2013)

Another little trick you can try---if you have some citric acid, pour a glass of the wine and add just a few crystals--like 2 or 3 of the acid. Stir it up and see if that's more to your liking.


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## ffemt128 (Apr 25, 2013)

I think you are both onto something and are confirming what I thought. I know I adjusted my gewurtztraminer last year several months before bottling. The TA when I checked it was only around .45% and all I was reading were stating it should be .75-.90. 


Prior to last year, I didn't really check the ph or TA prior to fermentation or really much after. Going to start that more often as a before and after check.


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## Inferno (Apr 25, 2013)

First i would source white grapes from areas that are cooler , the central valley and lodi are never going to produce crisp whites.

and if the acid comes in a little low , Using tartaric acid in the must to get your TA between 6.6 and 7.2 and ph between 3.5 and 3.3 has worked well for me .


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## ffemt128 (Apr 25, 2013)

Inferno said:


> First i would source white grapes from areas that are cooler , the central valley and lodi are never going to produce crisp whites.
> 
> and if the acid comes in a little low , Using tartaric acid in the must to get your TA between 6.6 and 7.2 and ph between 3.5 and 3.3 has worked well for me .


 
I've been getting juice buckets, not grapes both from CA and also Chille. Will definately be monitoring up front this year. I have the equipment, no excuses.


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## robie (Apr 25, 2013)

ffemt128 said:


> I've been getting juice buckets, not grapes both from CA and also Chille. Will definately be monitoring up front this year. I have the equipment, no excuses.



No guaranty that those juice buckets are from a cooler (higher acid) or warmer (lower acid) part of Chili or California, so you will need to check the TA.

Always add only half of the acid you think it will take. Stir it in well, give it a few days to fully incorporate into the wine and try it again; repeat if necessary.

The reason for half is if you put in too much, it is much harder to lower the TA.

Remember, the ultimate test is how it tastes to you, so in the end, go more by taste than the actual TA reading.


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## ffemt128 (Apr 26, 2013)

robie said:


> No guaranty that those juice buckets are from a cooler (higher acid) or warmer (lower acid) part of Chili or California, so you will need to check the TA.
> 
> Always add only half of the acid you think it will take. Stir it in well, give it a few days to fully incorporate into the wine and try it again; repeat if necessary.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed 100%. I'll be checking both PH and TA prior to fermentation and adjusting pre opposed to post this time around. I noticed the recommendation for tartaric acid, I have this and have used straight tartaric in the past and will make my adjustments with that this time around, is this recommended opposed to the blend?


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## JohnT (Apr 26, 2013)

I would also recomend a nice tight filter of the wine.


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## ffemt128 (Apr 26, 2013)

JohnT said:


> I would also recomend a nice tight filter of the wine.


 
John,

I generally do filter any whites or blush wines with a 1 micron filter.


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## ibglowin (Apr 26, 2013)

Absolutely. Tartaric Acid only.



ffemt128 said:


> I noticed the recommendation for tartaric acid, I have this and have used straight tartaric in the past and will make my adjustments with that this time around, is this recommended opposed to the blend?


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## joeswine (Apr 26, 2013)

*Grapefruit????????????*

 IF YOU WANT TO GIVE YOUR WINE THE BITE IT NEEDS WITH OUT THE CHEMICALS,ADD SOME GRAPEFRUIT ZEST TO YOUR SECONDARY,THAT WILL IMPROVE THE ACIDITY WITHOUT USING CHEMICALS,TRY IT IT WORKS.


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## Inferno (Apr 26, 2013)

Tartaric acid is extracted from grape pomace .
It's naturally present in grapes .

There is no way grape fruit zest could compensate for 2 g/Litre or higher additions or phs over 3.8 in volumes over one Litre.

Have you done before and after TA and ph measurements with zest?


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## robie (Apr 26, 2013)

Inferno said:


> Tartaric acid is extracted from grape pomace .
> It's naturally present in grapes .
> 
> There is no way grape fruit zest could compensate for 2 g/Litre or higher additions or phs over 3.8 in volumes over one Litre.
> ...



Have you, since you already seem to have the answer?
Have you ever even tried zesting on a white wine?

I don't think the intent would be to utilize zesting to lower the pH by that much. Zesting adds a flavor factor more than change the pH.


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## ffemt128 (Apr 26, 2013)

joeswine said:


> IF YOU WANT TO GIVE YOUR WINE THE BITE IT NEEDS WITH OUT THE CHEMICALS,ADD SOME GRAPEFRUIT ZEST TO YOUR SECONDARY,THAT WILL IMPROVE THE ACIDITY WITHOUT USING CHEMICALS,TRY IT IT WORKS.



I read your previous topic on zesting. Seemed interesting.


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## Inferno (Apr 26, 2013)

robie said:


> Have you, since you already seem to have the answer?
> Have you ever even tried zesting on a white wine?
> 
> I don't think the intent would be to utilize zesting to lower the pH by that much. Zesting adds a flavor factor more than change the pH.



The op was asking how to make wines crisp and in a commercial style
Like these classical varietals are made .

The other poster (joeswine) , in all caps no less , denigrated the use of tartaric acid as the use of chemicals , strongly , IN ALL CAPS !!! 
Zesting will not " IMPROVE ACIDITY" by any measurable means . It may change the taste but not increase acidity as stated. That's why I asked if the tests were done before and after
Tartaric acid is derived from and naturally present in grapes . It's use is regarded as the gold standard in grape winemaking , and certainly is in line with the commercial style the first poster asked about how to make

To insinuate that tartaric acids use is somehow unnatural and wrong is unbelievably biased . 
There isn't a peer reviewed grape winemaking text ever written that advocates the use of a citrus fruit as an addition to grape wines. Even jack Keller doesn't advocate this. And no commercial winemaker would either.

But if rustic additions of non grape derived materials like citrus skins sounds like a good idea , all the more power to you. This is a free society.

It won't give you classic character , it increases the risk of spoilage and browning but its your wine do what you like . Just drink it fast . 

I'm fairly new to forums but have been making wine for over 30 years .
I've never encountered such hostility before in a forum
I can see I'm not wanted here.
I bid you all adieu. 

Farewell
George Foster


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## olusteebus (Apr 27, 2013)

Well dang. Inferno did not last long here on this forum. 

That may be a good thing.

jeeeesh!


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## ibglowin (Apr 27, 2013)

Pretty sure I was the 2nd poster and not only did I not use any caps I was the first to suggest using Tartaric acid..... 

Adieu Inferno.


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## manvsvine (Apr 27, 2013)

Seems like a communications missfire.
Too bad , inferno sure seems to have strong technical chops .


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## ibglowin (Apr 27, 2013)

I see he came back and edited his last post to correct his mistake. What he failed to figure out in his short stay was that Joe uses caps all the time. It doesn't mean he is yelling. It doesn't mean anything. That's just Joe who actually has as much knowledge and experience in winemaking as anyone else on this board plus Joe is not afraid to step outside the box and experiment (like zesting) and then pass along those experiments and how they turned out. 

He meant no harm or ill will to anyone of that I am sure.


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## Rocky (Apr 27, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> Seems like a communications missfire.
> Too bad , inferno sure seems to have strong technical chops .


 
I agree, manvsvine. It was an unfortunate event. I think Inferno would have been a great addtion to the forum for more traditional wine making input and experience. One of the problems with what we enter on the forum is that the "tone" can often be misunderstood or misinterpreted. 

We have had this occur a couple of times of which I am aware and particularly with new members. It takes a short while to get to know some of the players and how they state things. I respectfully suggest that we should all more sensitive to new members.


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## cdjohnston (Apr 28, 2013)

I would adjust the acid prior to fermentation. Use ONLY tartaric acid for pre-fermentation adjustments. Get your pH sub-3.2 and TA closer to 6.8 g/L - go much higher over 7 and you start to strip the enamel right off of your teeth (kidding)

After you cold stabilize the wine then adjust with Malic acid to desired TA. The computation for malic vs tartaric is different but not so much so that in homewine you will have to be too critical.

*DO NOT use malic acid you buy in the store*. that is M-Malic which, in fermentation tends to smell a lot like geraniums.


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## manvsvine (Apr 29, 2013)

I've never read a publication or book that recommended the use of Malic acid for acid adjustment at any stage of grape wine making.
Pambianachi,morewine, cox, Warwick, UC Davis etc all recommend against adding any Malic , tartaric is used .

To use Malic would certainly increase sharpness but maybe too much . Malic would also greatly increase the risk of microbial instability as this additional Malic food source would increase the risk of an in bottle mlf occurring ruining the batch of wine. 
Tartaric would be the industry standard for acid additions . One helpfull thing for us home winemakers is that if you made the wine too sharp with tartaric you could cold stabilize and drop some of the acidity . A great safety valve for us homies. 

Does anyone have a source that recommends Malic additions ? Maybe I'm missing something , but I don't see risk vs reward paying off with Malic additions over tartaric acid additions.

Also my understanding is that geranium smell is produced when malolactic bacteria are exposed to sorbate , they metabolize some of the sorbate and produce the off geranium character.


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## Turock (Apr 30, 2013)

manvsvine---I agree with what you just said there. I've never heard that adding malic is a good thing--never read such a thing either. Infact, I think I remember reading something one time, while I was doing some research, that malic is never used additionally in wine. After all,malic is such a harsh acid.

However, I do agree with CD to get the PH around 3.2 for a white. This is what we do with our Niagara and the crispness is just right at that PH.


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## ibglowin (Apr 30, 2013)

I could see Malic being used in a "country wine" of sorts but never a grape wine.


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## cdjohnston (Apr 30, 2013)

Hi guys! glad to see ya all chimed in. Just as an FYI malic is used commonly post-fermentation, just come on out to the Temecula Valley. Prior to *STERILE *filtering and bottling, malic is regularly used to adjust the final taste profile. It's stable and wont fall out as bitartrate.

But for Turock, you are correct - in the event of over-adjustment, a little cold-stabilization helps in final pH since when the KHT falls out, the pH will rise due to mass action. also additions of potassium carbonate can help - just make sure you do the cold stab to knock out all of the KHT.

And just because you can use malic, does not necessarily mean I do <grin>


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## manvsvine (Apr 30, 2013)

I would NEVER add malic to a grape wine , too much potential downside. pretty hard to get a true sterile filter at home , and I'd rather not max out so2 and use lysozyme.

generally post ferment acid additions are really a tool of last resort .
winemakers should always try to make adjustments prior to pitching the yeast whenever possible.

adding acid post ferment is to dial it in if it didn't come in the right range after ferment. its a band aid . not something I'd intentionally plan on doing.

morewines white wine manual has some very good pratical advice on adjusting acid in a white wine.
3.2 is right at the low end of the 3.2 - 3.5 range that white wines are adjusted to.
I might go that low with a very aromatic white but for chardonnay I'd go at the 3.4 range. if the grapes naturally had a ph under 3.5 I would just leave it alone.

it may be very difficult to get a wine down to 3.2ph and keep your TA under 7 , so you might have to adjust your expectations or be prepared to have amuch higher ta

http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf


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## Turock (May 1, 2013)

I absolutely agree with your statement about making all acid adjustment pre-ferment. We have never made adjustments in the post ferment and in all the years of winemaking we've never had many of the issues that are talked about so much in these forums.

The workhorse of winemaking happens at the primary. It's where you're designing the wine. And the adjustments made there get fully integrated into the wine, yielding much better results. I wish all new winemakers would buy themselves a PH meter, acids,calcium carbonate, tannin, and get used to making wine the correct way right from the start. I agree that acid adjustment post ferment is "error correction." Get it right at the primary and you won't be doing all these acrobatics in the post ferment.

We DO make a lot of fruit wines--and would never consider using malic acid additions. Most fruit is too acid---so we are correcting the PH with carbonate.


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## ffemt128 (May 1, 2013)

Still following all the interesting responses and will be referring back to this when my juice arrives.


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## ffemt128 (May 31, 2013)

I did adjust up the acid on these when the juice came in. Used only tartaric as was recommended. Last night, I decided to give the Sauv Blanc a small try. I have to say that I'm quite impressed at an early age at the difference in taste to past batches. Very good.


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## manvsvine (Jun 13, 2013)

Great news , glad the tartaric worked out , sometimes standard practices are best practices.

keep us posted on how it comes out in the end.


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## ffemt128 (Jun 13, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> Great news , glad the tartaric worked out , sometimes standard practices are best practices.
> 
> keep us posted on how it comes out in the end.


 

I will do that. Last weekend I racked off the heavy lees and gave a dose of K-meta. Both whites are clearing nicely at this point. I look forward to next sampling at the next racking.


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