# Kumis or milk wine?



## BernardSmith

I saw a thread posted here about three years ago with a recipe for milk wine. Mare's milk wine is a traditional wine drunk in Mongolia and that part of the world but the recipe here looks a great deal a stronger than the 2.5% ABV it is traditionally drunk. 

Looks like a version of this can be made using either lactose free cow's milk or ordinary cow's milk to which a lactose enzyme has been added. Has anyone tried making this wine? It is supposed to taste a little like sake. 
I ask because kumis would seem to involve both a bacterial and a yeast fermentation and that might require the addition of some acid (not called out in the recipe). The other question I have is that the recipes I have seen all seem to suggest that the milk is diluted by the same volume of water... Cannot figure out the reason for that.. Thoughts? 

Last question: If you have made this kind of wine before, would using a fat free milk be preferable to a full fat milk? Or does that not matter as the fat is bound up in the curds that form and does not create a problem for the wine and its longevity (fats breaking down and spoiling)..


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## vernsgal

Can you attach a link to the recipe you're referring to? Now I'm just curious,lol


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## GreginND

I'm just wondering why anyone would want to make this?!?


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## seth8530

Been their! Done that!

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/my-milk-wine-project-7095/

Before you read the thread and think poorly of me, please remember that this was in my earlier days of wine making. My technique and passion for wine making has changed quite a bit since then. Also, I did not mind the curds that were formed from using milk with fat, I just assumed they were alcoholic cheese.


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## vernsgal

hahaha! Thanks Seth! Would never think poorly of you! How did it turn out? did you ever drink it?


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## seth8530

Well, this is going back down memory lane, but I seem to recall it had a very strong kind of barnyardy kind of taste. Not quite like the awesume milkshake it tasted and smelt like during fermentation.


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## BernardSmith

seth8530 said:


> Well, this is going back down memory lane, but I seem to recall it had a very strong kind of barnyardy kind of taste. Not quite like the awesume milkshake it tasted and smelt like during fermentation.



Barnyardy taste sounds like there might have been some contamination with Brett... From what I have read elsewhere the taste is supposed to be similar to sake. But that aside it seems like millions of folk drink something like this from the Steppes to Columbia and for the price of a gallon of milk (albeit it lactose free milk) I don't see what's not to try. I guess I am just fascinated by folk drinks and the kinds of alcoholic beverages that folk (not professionals) traditionally make and drink.

But knowing what you know now, is there some reason to dilute the milk? Why do all the recipes for this suggest adding the same volume of water to the milk?


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## seth8530

I would not dilute the milk if I was to remake the wine. Umm, I am not ruling out if it was infected or not, but just to be honest I think the wine was just a bit funky on its own.

I recommend you try it, at the very least you earn some bragging rights.


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## vernsgal

seth8530 said:


> i recommend you try it, at the very least you earn some bragging rights.


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## BernardSmith

seth8530 said:


> I would not dilute the milk if I was to remake the wine. Umm, I am not ruling out if it was infected or not, but just to be honest I think the wine was just a bit funky on its own.
> 
> I recommend you try it, at the very least you earn some bragging rights.



Planning on starting this wine this week- perhaps tonight if I can find the lactose free milk.


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## vernsgal

BernardSmith said:


> Planning on starting this wine this week- perhaps tonight if I can find the lactose free milk.



can you keep us posted on it? This sounds intriguing!


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## GreginND

I'd rather drink Welches.


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## BernardSmith

GreginND said:


> I'd rather drink Welches.



It may taste horrific... or it may taste delicious. I know that nothing would make me try advocaat (an egg brandy the color of egg yolks) but then I forced myself to taste it and I kicked myself because of what I had refused to try for years... It may be a disaster or it may be an incredible folk drink... but I won't know until I try it. 

I will use this thread to post a note on any progress I am making towards this drink.


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## vernsgal

BernardSmith said:


> It may taste horrific... or it may taste delicious. I know that nothing would make me try advocaat (an egg brandy the color of egg yolks) but then I forced myself to taste it and I kicked myself because of what I had refused to try for years... It may be a disaster or it may be an incredible folk drink... but I won't know until I try it.
> 
> I will use this thread to post a note on any progress I am making towards this drink.



I used to love advocaat. My dad bought me a bottle every year for Christmas.It was my eggnog lol


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## BernardSmith

3/9/14
Found a gallon of lactose free & fat free milk and added 1 lb of sugar to bring the gravity to about 1.080. (2 qts seem to be calcium enriched and so have added carrageenan... ) 
Added 1 t nutrient and 1/2 t energizer.
pitched 71B yeast.


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## seth8530

Ready yourself for the milkshake smell!


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## BernardSmith

seth8530 said:


> Ready yourself for the milkshake smell!



Thanks Seth, I will prepare myself, although I'm not sure I know what a milk shake smells like (we make our own and they don't seem to have unexpected smells) 
This morning I see that the milk begun to ferment and that there is a froth sitting atop the container. No unpleasant aromas, but then I have a batch of alfalfa mead fermenting and several gallon batches of cider fermenting on the same counter top. 
Capped the container and shook it vigorously to aerate and keep the yeast suspended. Replaced the cap with sheet of aluminum foil. Will check the gravity again this evening. Last night it was about 1.080 although the solids in the milk will suggest a greater ABV than the sugar content will provide. (I added 16 oz of sugar last night but intend to add another 16 oz this evening if there is still evidence of a good fermentation).


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## BernardSmith

3/11/14 The kumis was very active during the night. I have been fermenting this in two large jars and although one of the jars had about 4 inches of head room I found a pile of curds on the counter this morning. This despite the cover I had loosely placed over the mouth of the jar to keep our cats out. 

Looks like there are about three inches of curds sitting on top, a very small layer of lees on the bottom and a thin liquid that resembles whey in the middle. The jars have a diameter of about 6 inches (I started with one gallon of milk and 2 lbs of sugar and my volume at this time is about 1.5 gallons )

Tried to draw a sample and measure the gravity but the froth and milk particles in the measuring cylinder make it impossible to read the hydrometer. Gave up after two attempts. 

I tried the curds and they taste very sweet. This makes me wonder whether using my hydrometer to get an indication of the ABV is in fact useful. I am wondering how much of the sugar will be bound up in the curds so that even if the potential ABV was say, 10.5%, the true ABV even when the gravity falls below 1.000 may be only 6 or 7%.


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## BernardSmith

Was able to siphon off enough of the clear liquor to measure the gravity this evening. It has already fallen to about 1.010. Removed the curds with a spoon and racked the wine into a small carboy. Was able to rack 1/2 gallon with perhaps another 1/4 gallon I need to refrigerate and allow the remaining liquid to separate from the lees and remaining curds.

Tasted the curds: not sweet although the liquor that seeped from the curds was.


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## chasemandingo

How is this one going? lol


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## BernardSmith

I have it in two different containers. One is very clear and one is slightly cloudy. The clear bottle has an inch or so of curd like lees at the bottom. The cloudy one has a thin layer of lees. I am going to wait another week and then rack them both together into a single carboy and taste. I tasted the curds and they were sweeter than I imagined and really quite tasty when still moist. I allowed them to drain and decided that I did not like them dry. I am a luddite when it comes to being able to psot photographs but will try.


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## BernardSmith

Sorry , Not able to post photos - not sure why - but anyway - I tasted some of this kumis today and it tastes ... interesting. I did not take an hydrometer reading but it tastes sweet although it should have more or less fermented dry. My kumis has (presumably) a far higher ABV than traditionally made milk wine - it's also made from cow milk and not mare. It's certainly drinkable although there is not much of a nose to it but I don't see me choosing this wine as I settle in for the evening or after a day working in the garden. The carboy with the not yet perfectly clear kumis is still not yet perfectly clear and I think I am going to add some bentonite to see if that might help it


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## photoactivist

This sounds fascinating! How is it coming along now that fermentation seems to have subsided?
In cheesemaking, you separate the curds and whey; would that maybe be helpful here? Like to separate first, then ferment the whey alone?
I my just try this, it really is captivating!


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## BernardSmith

Had not thought about the kumis for a while and coincidentally I looked at it yesterday when I moved a gallon of t'ej (Ethiopian honey wine) I started last week into the basement area where I store my wines. I need to taste it again to see how it is doing. 
The fermentation process itself separates the milk into curds and whey and the fresh curds (when still very moist) taste sweet and are fairly full of alcohol: like a sweet but potent cheese. The dried curds lost their sweetness. 
You remove the curds from the whey and allow the whey to continue fermenting. One small jar is very clear while the other seems to be more cloudy than I was expecting.


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## BernardSmith

I tasted the kumis last night and while it is not something that will become part of my regular wine making it has a very interesting sweet and sour taste. Sour, not in a bad way and not overpoweringly sour but there is a sourness to the taste and the mouthfeel - perhaps because of the added carrageenan - is good. I was trying to think what the flavor reminded me of and I think it does remind me of sake - For the record, I started off with a gallon of milk and ended up with enough kumis to fill three bottles.


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## BernardSmith

Tried another glass of the kumis about 6 months after I started this batch and 2.5 months after my last tasting ... and the kumis is actually quite drinkable. Not wonderful but certainly something that I would be happy to drink a second glass. 
I have a lactomel quietly aging in the basement and will steal a sip later this evening...


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