# What was your biggest 'ah ha moment' to help you make better wine?



## David Lewis (Oct 22, 2020)

I've only been making wine from grapes for three years now. Each year it gets progressively better and each year I learn a ton on what to do and what not to do. I am a huge lurker on this site. I love to read but rarely reach out for help. It wasn't until this past while that I asked for some help from this site that I realized that I was missing a lot from my knowledge base. Everything that I was doing in the beginning was good(ish). In general everything that I was doing was by the MoreWine book of doing things. But I guess I only read the first couple chapters and never learned to properly take care of my wine after the press and after moving the wine off the gross lees. I had no way to test for MLF completion and had no idea of SO2 management. For me, this was my 'ah ha moment' and I am hoping to cure those problems this year and make a good wine (or at least something my wife likes).

With that being said... What was the lesson that you learned that helped you get to the next level?


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## Johnd (Oct 22, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> I've only been making wine from grapes for three years now. Each year it gets progressively better and each year I learn a ton on what to do and what not to do.  I am a huge lurker on this site. I love to read but rarely reach out for help. It wasn't until this past while that I asked for some help from this site that I realized that I was missing a lot from my knowledge base. Everything that I was doing in the beginning was good(ish). In general everything that I was doing was by the MoreWine book of doing things. But I guess I only read the first couple chapters and never learned to properly take care of my wine after the press and after moving the wine off the gross lees. I had no way to test for MLF completion and had no idea of SO2 management. For me, this was my 'ah ha moment' and I am hoping to cure those problems this year and make a good wine (or at least something my wife likes).
> 
> With that being said... What was the lesson that you learned that helped you get to the next level?


Three things. 
First was when I found this site, caused growth by leaps and bounds.

Second was barrel aging in real wood barrels, big developmental changes in my wine.

Third was moving from kits to grapes (fresh and frozen).


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 22, 2020)

* assuming that sulphite was zero at every transfer and dosing appropriately
* judging wine, judge training, comparing my tastes with the neighbors
. . helps seeing defects I have not produced
. . more experienced judges suggested fixes
. . different people have different sensitivity
* sampling as many different wines as I can
. . helps to be part of a Vinters club

_this is a good topic, I hope it stays active for years_


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## CDrew (Oct 22, 2020)

Year 4 here. It seems like I learn something every time. But like the rest of life, the mistakes you make are the best lessons.

-Enzymes pre-ferment will improve your wine more than any other single thing I have found.
-Better grapes make better wine. Get the best quality you can.
-It is easy to overdo Oak.
-Testing of pH, TA and SO2 is fun, and you can really feel in control of your wine's destiny.


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## Juniper Hill (Oct 22, 2020)

These have made a big difference for me:
Oak barrels - mine are neutral now, but have a huge impact on softening red wines
Susse reserve method - if back sweetening a white wine add unfermented must
Sourcing the best grapes that I am able
Testing brix, pH and TA and making corrections preferment if needed


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## winemanden (Oct 22, 2020)

I think it was when I realized that you could learn from your mistakes, but you could learn even more from other peoples mistakes. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I've learnt an awful lot from you lads.


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## salcoco (Oct 22, 2020)

the fact that although I have been making wine for 35 years there has been something to learn every year.


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## ibglowin (Oct 22, 2020)

Adding on to what John has said I have to add:

1) Knowing when to say when during the press....... More is not always better.

2) Realizing that it's a complete waste of time to try and do any type of straining or filtering during press. Its all going to come out or settle out sooner or later. Press is just step one in a long process of clarification. Don't sweat the small stuff. 



Johnd said:


> Three things.
> First was when I found this site, caused growth by leaps and bounds.
> 
> Second was barrel aging in real wood barrels, big developmental changes in my wine.
> ...


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## Chuck E (Oct 22, 2020)

I've only been doing this 3 years.

1. Knowing what trouble smells & tastes like 
2. Learning about what different strains of yeast do 
3. Using bench testing when using additives 

But, really all the tips on this thread & this blog have made me a much better and more consistent wine maker.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 22, 2020)

Great thread! Really don't know where to start, this forum, going from kits to grapes, the AIO pump and getting the proper equipment are way up there. But I would have to say getting to know professional winemakers personally and understanding their different approaches has helped the most.


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## David Lewis (Oct 22, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> * assuming that sulphite was zero at every transfer and dosing appropriately
> * judging wine, judge training, comparing my tastes with the neighbors
> . . helps seeing defects I have not produced
> . . more experienced judges suggested fixes
> ...



Interesting ideas on judging wine. I just recently started down the path of learning and understanding the tasting of wine in an effort to better understand the wine that I make. I started with this class, it is a free UC Davis course on the matter that is basic but has some good points: *Wine Tasting: Sensory Techniques For Wine Analysis . *Now I just need to take the time to finish this


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## Ajmassa (Oct 22, 2020)

Great thread idea. 

A definite ‘ah-ha’ moment for me was learning that adding oak during the fermentation and adding oak later in aging—- ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! And how oak in fermentation isn’t adding any ‘oak essence’ but rather utilizing the additional tannins for better extraction of different characteristics from the grapes. (sacrificial tannins)

not only did it help my understanding of the use of oak in making wine— but really helped me to understand what’s actually taking place during fermentation ——-which helped my winemaking all around.


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## jackl (Oct 22, 2020)

I grow my own grapes in my micro-vineyard and my growing conditions such as weather, soil, and location are far from ideal. I record each years harvest to include weight, time of harvest, spraying regime, pH and Brix. I’m amazed at how the grapes change from year to year and have learned how to improve the quality and consistency through vineyard management. I also have a better understanding of how I need to adjust my wine making process to compensate for the differences in the grapes.

Also, with all of the science and sanitization behind wine making, I marvel at how my grandfathers who came directly from Italy were able to make good wine following a basic process.


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## David Lewis (Oct 22, 2020)

jackl said:


> I grow my own grapes in my micro-vineyard and my growing conditions such as weather, soil, and location are far from ideal. I record each years harvest to include weight, time of harvest, spraying regime, pH and Brix. I’m amazed at how the grapes change from year to year and have learned how to improve the quality and consistency through vineyard management. I also have a better understanding of how I need to adjust my wine making process to compensate for the differences in the grapes.
> 
> Also, with all of the science and sanitization behind wine making, I marvel at how my grandfathers who came directly from Italy were able to make good wine following a basic process.



My hat is off to you. I have brown thumb and am a pretty ok wine maker. If possible i would like to at least be a good wine maker that doesn't kill everything I touch.


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## David Lewis (Oct 22, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Year 4 here. It seems like I learn something every time. But like the rest of life, the mistakes you make are the best lessons.
> 
> -Enzymes pre-ferment will improve your wine more than any other single thing I have found.
> -Better grapes make better wine. Get the best quality you can.
> ...


 CDrew,
I would never have imagined that it was only year 4 for you. I have seen a lot of posts/comment from you and would have guessed that you had been doing this for so much longer.

And I agree, our mistakes are our best lessons. I just re-bottled my wine that was pressed 2 years ago and am naming it '2 Many Wrong Mistakes'.... I keep blundering this batch and keep finding ways to cure my mistakes. And then I find a new way to blunder it. I finally got it (thanks polyclar and these forums) to the state of drinkable and then bottled it. Only after bottling it did I realize that it was a little flabby and could have used some acid. I took the left over, added some acid and the realized that it was actually pretty darn OK. Of course I realized this after bottling it for the second time. With each mistake I learned a little more. I just hope I'm not the type of person to keep repeating my mistakes


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## NorCal (Oct 22, 2020)

I can‘t say that there was any one moment, rather a collection of learnings, each having an incremental improvement in my wine making ability. Not a year has gone by that I didn’t learn something that made my wine better. Most of which I’ve discussed on this the commercial vs. homemade thread.
The best home made wine I’ve had or tasted as a judge were from winemakers who continually improved their wine. Most were not satisfied with their wines, even though the wines were excellent.


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## G259 (Oct 23, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> My hat is off to you. I have brown thumb and am a pretty ok wine maker. If possible i would like to at least be a good wine maker that doesn't kill everything I touch.



I also tell everyone that I have a 'brown thumb', but isn't acceptance the fist part of being free?(!)


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## David Lewis (Oct 23, 2020)

NorCal said:


> I can‘t say that there was any one moment, rather a collection of learnings, each having an incremental improvement in my wine making ability. Not a year has gone by that I didn’t learn something that made my wine better. Most of which I’ve discussed on this the commercial vs. homemade thread.
> The best home made wine I’ve had or tasted as a judge were from winemakers who continually improved their wine. Most were not satisfied with their wines, even though the wines were excellent.



Yep. I have to admit that thread you have is one of those that i check daily for updates. Some great info!! I feel that the wines that you are making may be comparable to some cab francs that are in the $30-$40 price range. For my wines they may have reached the 10-12 price range (that may be generous). I am eager to be in your spot where you are looking to take a really good wine to a great wine.


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## Mac60 (Oct 23, 2020)

Well I have been making wine for 20+ years, learning from friends of old school wine makers, who's thought process was just get grapes, crush them and let the natural process work. "I don't add shit to my wine" was the mantra. The problem I had was most of their wine tasted like shit and I wanted more. So I read and experimented with putting "Shit" in my wine. I made incremental improvements, but it wasn't until the last 4 years I made exponential progress on the quality and taste of the wine we produce. I believe it was the feed back and knowledge I gained from reading post and getting responses that I have posted on the forum that have made the most difference in the quality of wine we currently produce. This year I believe will be one of the best vintages we have produced. This has been the case for the last 4 seasons. 
Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post and give me insight and advice.
Mike
Cosa Nostra Cellars


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## sour_grapes (Oct 23, 2020)

Mac60 said:


> Well I have been making wine for 20+ years, learning from friends of old school wine makers, who's thought process was just get grapes, crush them and let the natural process work. "I don't add shit to my wine" was the mantra. The problem I had was most of their wine tasted like shit and I wanted more. So I read and experimented with putting "Shit" in my wine. I made incremental improvements, but it wasn't until the last 4 years I made exponential progress on the quality and taste of the wine we produce. I believe it was the feed back and knowledge I gained from reading post and getting responses that I have posted on the forum that have made the most difference in the quality of wine we currently produce. This year I believe will be one of the best vintages we have produced. This has been the case for the last 4 seasons.
> Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post and give me insight and advice.
> Mike
> Cosa Nostra CellarsView attachment 67311



I was reading your post, but in my peripheral vision I could see the triskelion device at the top of your picture. While I was trying to read your text, my distracted brain wondered whether this was from the Isle of Man or from Sicily. Then I got done reading your text, and saw that the heading of your picture was "Casa Nostra." Of course, . It would have to be Sicily on a winemaking forum, no? I was an idiot for not knowing before then. (To be fair to me, I _was_ reading text while this thought process was happening!  )


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## David Lewis (Oct 23, 2020)

G259 said:


> I also tell everyone that I have a 'brown thumb', but isn't acceptance the fist part of being free?(!)


Yes!!! And thank goodness. I stress enough over a couple 5 gallon carboy.


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## pproctorga (Oct 23, 2020)

Coming from making wine from my own muscadines for years and then adding on kits: I'm now applying what I've learned in this forum and making detailed measurements for my grapes. Number one thing I've learned so far: Measure everything and adjust -- don't trust the kit instructions. People say that the manufacturers have accounted for everything, but that's just not true from my experience. Measure and adjust.


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## NoQuarter (Oct 23, 2020)

My simple country wines have been adjusted and changed almost yearly as I learn more and more.
The biggest change was measuring Brix in the gardens. Muscadines, figs, blueberries,elderberries,plums, pears etc.....
I would wait till ripe then pick. started testing Brix and found that another week more and i would get an extra 5 or more brix points. Figs for example double the brix rating from turning dark to turning into a little bag of mush that can fall apart when picked. More than fermentable sugars, very ripe fruits have a much better flavor profile. Ripe is good for eating, overripe makes good wine.


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## JustJoe (Oct 23, 2020)

Finding this site!


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## CDrew (Oct 23, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> CDrew,
> I would never have imagined that it was only year 4 for you. I have seen a lot of posts/comment from you and would have guessed that you had been doing this for so much longer.



Well, technically 5 years but year one I learned the most important lesson of all. And that is; don't leave for a 10 day vacation on the Big Island the day after you pitch your yeast! It was after that debacle that I got serious about learning this craft.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 23, 2020)

I will also say (and I this is meant to be a compliment) that I thought you had a few more vintages on your shelf than 4 or 5.


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## Chuck E (Oct 23, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> A definite ‘ah-ha’ moment for me was learning that adding oak during the fermentation and adding oak later in aging—- ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! And how oak in fermentation isn’t adding any ‘oak essence’ but rather utilizing the additional tannins for better extraction of different characteristics from the grapes. (sacrificial tannins) not only did it help my understanding of the use of oak in making wine— but really helped me to understand what’s actually taking place during fermentation ——-which helped my winemaking all around.



AJ, what are your typical fermentation additions of oak & tannins for a red wine made from grapes?


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## skyfire322 (Oct 23, 2020)

Four things:
-Not all yeast is created equal
-Reading the hydrometer correctly
-A ha! (more like haha) Owning more than two hydrometers.
-Not needing to over-complicate things.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 23, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> AJ, what are your typical fermentation additions of oak & tannins for a red wine made from grapes?


I guess I default to FT Rouge. But I played around with diff types of oak chips. Opti red, tannin Riche, that generic ‘wine tannin powder’ stuff. But I’d say FT rouge is my go to. Mainly because of accessibility. I get most of my stuff online from morewine, which has limited options for fermentation tannins.

I never do a control batch so hard to know the effect. Bu I did one time do a split batch one with oak chips one without. Was Hungarian light toast. I couldn’t tell much of a difference.


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## heatherd (Oct 23, 2020)

For me, the "a-ha's" have been over time and include: 

Learning from all of you!
Knowing (knock on wood) that having a second hydrometer means that your other one will last years. 
Talking with other winemakers to understand their processes, like Kevin at Harford Vineyard, who says he tends to make minimal adjustments to his wine, allowing it to be an example of the varietal, the place, and the vintage.
Streamlining my additions to just yeast, kmeta, oak, tannins, tartaric acid, and MLB.
Tasting and making both mainstream and uncommon varietals.
Doing research on yeast to understand the characteristics they attempt to enhance.
Getting familiar and comfortable with yeast and MLB that work best for me.
Moving from kits to fresh and frozen grapes/juice and tasting that difference.
Knowing that I can do anything I want myself and without anything fancy such as crushing, de-stemming, pressing, and tasting to know if MLF is done.
Moving toward longer bulk-aging and tasting that difference.
Learning that I need to taste my wine throughout the process.
Working with oak at varying stages and in different formats.
Working with tannins of various types at differing stages.
Knowing that wine-making can always be more complex or less so.


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## balatonwine (Oct 24, 2020)

I have personally not had any epiphanies. It has simply been a gradual life long learning experience.


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## CDrew (Oct 24, 2020)

Learning in wine making is an avalanche. THe grapes for me all come in in just 2-3 weeks. You have to adapt, you have to rack and recover, you have to clean and clean and clean. It's actually hard physically. But processing 1000-1500 pounds of grapes is rewarding, and it's fun to drink wine I made 4 years ago. I hope I can drink wine I made 20 years ago.

Bulk fermentation/storage is your friend. Go as long as you can because once it's in the bottle, you can't change the trajectory of what's going to happen.


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## jsbeckton (Oct 24, 2020)

No question in my mind that the biggest difference so far for me was moving on from kits to grape wines.


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## HillPeople (Oct 25, 2020)

Keep your yeast happy and patience.


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## Venatorscribe (Oct 25, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Learning in wine making is an avalanche. THe grapes for me all come in in just 2-3 weeks. You have to adapt, you have to rack and recover, you have to clean and clean and clean. It's actually hard physically. But processing 1000-1500 pounds of grapes is rewarding, and it's fun to drink wine I made 4 years ago. I hope I can drink wine I made 20 years ago.
> 
> Bulk fermentation/storage is your friend. Go as long as you can because once it's in the bottle, you can't change the trajectory of what's going to happen.


Well said. I have never thought about it as an avalanche - but it absolutely is. Having to work at pace, monitor and cross check your steps. not mentioning the sore back.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 25, 2020)

Two early epiphanies:

wine yeast is different from bread yeast
what a hydrometer is
My first 3 years I used bread yeast, as I didn't know the difference, and if I did, I had no source for wine yeast. In January 1984 I saw an ad for a supply shop about 30 miles from home. During my first visit I spoke with owner for more than two hours, and as I started making beer at that time, I was in the shop for a long visit every few weeks.

The internet is the biggest game changer. When I first learned, information came from questionable recipes in the newspaper, other wine makers (who didn't necessarily really know what they were doing), and from books of varying quality and usefulness. The ability to converse with fellow wine makers from literally around the world is honestly amazing.

EDIT: I made friends with 2 wine makers who DID know what they were doing, and their comments helped me learn the difference between wheat and chaff.


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## JohnT (Oct 26, 2020)

much like thee last post, my "AHHA" moment was when i decided to forget everything my father said about making wine when he was a boy. sorry Dad.


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## Jay204 (Oct 26, 2020)

With just 4 years of experience and only 2 years with actual grapes, there's a lot of room for improvement. But so far, the biggest ah ha moments have been:

- switching from kits to grapes for reds (more work, but much more rewarding)
- pre-fermentation enzymes/additives and saignee, in particular, can significantly improve a red wine
- controlling and changing temperatures throughout fermentation has its benefits (spiking temps for extraction, lowering temps to lengthen skin time)
- pay closer attention to ph....learned that the hard way


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## David Lewis (Oct 26, 2020)

Jay204 said:


> With just 4 years of experience and only 2 years with actual grapes, there's a lot of room for improvement. But so far, the biggest ah ha moments have been:
> 
> - switching from kits to grapes for reds (more work, but much more rewarding)
> - pre-fermentation enzymes/additives and saignee, in particular, can significantly improve a red wine
> ...



I was considering trying saignee this year and backed out of it. For those that have are using this method, have the results been worth it?


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## CDrew (Oct 26, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> I was considering trying saignee this year and backed out of it. For those that have are using this method, have the results been worth it?



I did a saignee Rose in 2019 with some questionable Mourvedre grapes. It ended up being really good, and we're nearly out of the 2 1/2 cases I made of it. I would say the Rose was actually better than the red wine from the same grapes, at least so far. I bottled in in April and we were drinking it in May. By June or so it was really nice. We're down to the last 3 bottles so for sure the wife approved.






Saignee-Real time help


Today was Mourvedre day and wouldn't you know it, there was an extra 100 pounds give or take that needed a home. So I got my usual 300 and an extra hundred for Rose. So the grapes were very nice brix 25 off a hillside vineyard in Contra Costa County near Brentwood. My plan is to let the...




www.winemakingtalk.com





I'm doing another Rose this year with really nice Barbera grapes, but it isn't saignee. I just crushed the grapes, and pressed 4 hours later. Discarded the pressings. Shooting for enough volume to get 4 cases since the 2019 will soon be gone.

If you can get enough grapes and not spend too much on them, I highly recommend a quick drinking Saignee that may also improve the base red wine. I'm for sure going to do so again in fall 2021.


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## Jay204 (Oct 26, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> I was considering trying saignee this year and backed out of it. For those that have are using this method, have the results been worth it?



I found that by taking 15-25% of the juice off I got a more complex, fuller boded, deeper coloured red. I will always saignee with any red going forward (unless I don't want those characteristics). My wines seemed thin prior to saignee

As @CDrew mentioned, an added bonus is the rose you can make from it. It gives you another type of wine that is ready to drink early.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 4, 2020)

Just finished adding the MLB and remembered 2 ah ha moments by two members. 
Since I do sequential inoculation I wait until all the wines finish AF and inoculate them at the same time. I used to measure each carboy individually for the amount of bacteria and Acti-ML. I believe it was @Johnd who recommended mixing the entire packet with the Acti-ML then use a syringe to place the proper amount in each carboy which saves a lot of time and I believe a more accurate approach.
The second came from @Ajmassa. After adding the bacteria I fill the carboys to the max making it hard to stir. AJ's recommendation was to use a racking cane to stir. Since the cane is hollow it takes up very little space.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 13, 2020)

I re-read the thread -- although there is not much detailed explanation, there is a wealth of ideas for the new, and maybe not so new, wine maker. Reading through everyone's ah-ha moments provides ideas for learning and research.

A couple more moments for me:

1. The different between fresh fruit and concentrates. I started out with fresh non-grape fruit, migrated to fresh grapes, and much later migrated to kits when I didn't have a good source for grapes. When I found a source last year (after 20 years), I re-learned a LOT of things.

2. Barrels. I made my first wine in 1981 (that's where the "81" in my ID comes from) but didn't own a barrel until a year ago. That dramatically changed my perceptions. Granted, not everyone has the space to handle a barrel, and it's not for everyone. However, if it's possible, I recommend it.


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## David Lewis (Nov 13, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> I re-read the thread -- although there is not much detailed explanation, there is a wealth of ideas for the new, and maybe not so new, wine maker. Reading through everyone's ah-ha moments provides ideas for learning and research.
> 
> A couple more moments for me:
> 
> ...


One of these days I will make a wine that is worthy enough for a barrel!!

On a side note, I do some fruit wines and cider and I feel that these wines have gotten much better as a result of some of the lessons that I am learning from some of my bad (or not so great) wines. The plum wine that I made for my father-in-law actually turned out good enough to slap a nice label on it and proudly share it with friends. And I have been asked if I ever plan to cell any of my cider. If I can get people asking that about my wines, then I will be a very happy camper. Each year gets better as I learn more from all of you.. Maybe this year is it, maybe next


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## winemaker81 (Nov 13, 2020)

@David Lewis, remember that good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.  

Another important lesson is that not all wines are going to turn out great. Yes, we want them to ... but things don't always go our way, regardless of what we do. So we figure out how to make the best of the situation.

Last year's Malbec has an aftertaste that I can't identify, it's harsh. My solution was to back sweeten with cherry juice -- I'm still not terribly fond of it, but everyone else likes it. I call it a win!


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## JohnT (Nov 18, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> One of these days I will make a wine that is worthy enough for a barrel!!



Perhaps you already have. Perhaps a barrel will make your very drinkable wine even better....


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## distancerunner (Nov 18, 2020)

The single biggest “aha” for me was learning how to use inert gas to manage head space.

Edit to clarify: Not so much managing headspace as using gas to purge (sparge?) container prior to racking in order to exclude O2. 

The result was that when other people drank it their reaction went from a polite "It's pretty good" to "You made this?!!"


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## purpletongue (Nov 18, 2020)

This is a great thread question. I'm a newb to the art and only have about a year or so. But what I feel stands out so far...

1) Slow down and enjoy the process and journey. I often find myself frustrated or sore at times dealing with all the carboys, cleaning and sanitizing. Slow down. Listen to music and enjoy the process. Try to organize your time so you don't have to rack multiple carboys in one night or else.

2) Take detailed notes. Make a tasting journal to develop you palette.

3) Don't sweat the small stuff. On disappointment, drink and appreciate the not so special wine with the same reverence you drink the the exceptional wine. One may argue it's not possible and that's the point of the art, but one can argue it's a good exercise to develop a positive attitude toward your art. I just cracked a cheap table bottle of Greek wine I bought. I was really disappointed with the first glass. Now that it's breathed a bit in the decanter, the next glass is so much nicer. Thus, always be positive. I suspect the grapes and especially the yeast hate negativity.


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## purpletongue (Nov 18, 2020)

distancerunner said:


> The single biggest “aha” for me was learning how to use inert gas to manage head space.


Head space does annoy me as a newcomer. Haven't used any inert gas yet. But do find that significant brain energy is spent on working out volumes for different containers when racking down.


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 19, 2020)

FYI- as long as you have CO2 build up in the headspace you have a protective gas.


purpletongue said:


> Head space does annoy me as a newcomer. Haven't used any inert gas yet. . .


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 19, 2020)

two years ago I made a really out of balance mulberry, ,, since then I have designed TA to fit the sweetness I like on finished wine.

commercial sodas, teas, juice boxes, cider, etc also will produce a sloped line, but shifted to the left. ,,, a guess is that 10 to 14% alcohol has an innate sweetness ,,, wines from others, are in this data set


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## TPO (Nov 19, 2020)

distancerunner said:


> The single biggest “aha” for me was learning how to use inert gas to manage head space.


Can you expand on this more?


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## winemaker81 (Nov 19, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> Now that it's breathed a bit in the decanter, the next glass is so much nicer.


Excellent point!

Decanting can make a huge difference in the wine. But if you're not going to finish the bottle, use an aerator. I have *this one*, but any brand works.

A while back I poured 2 glasses of wine for a friend, asking which she liked better. Both glasses were the same wine, one aerated and one not. She tasted them both and told me her decision -- she much preferred the aerated one. At first she didn't believe they were the same wine -- the aerated one was so much better.

Not all wines are that much improved by aeration, but I notice that older reds are.

If we have guests for dinner, I'll decant a bottle an hour ahead of time, otherwise I use the aerator.


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## purpletongue (Nov 21, 2020)

distancerunner said:


> The single biggest “aha” for me was learning how to use inert gas to manage head space.
> 
> Edit to clarify: Not so much managing headspace as using gas to purge (sparge?) container prior to racking in order to exclude O2.
> 
> The result was that when other people drank it their reaction went from a polite "It's pretty good" to "You made this?!!"


Interesting that avoiding that seemingly negligible amount of O2 has made such a difference for you. B/c as I'm sure you know, some oxygen isn't a bad thing as long as it doesn't cause excessive oxygenation sequel to spoilage.


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## purpletongue (Nov 21, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> Excellent point!
> 
> Decanting can make a huge difference in the wine. But if you're not going to finish the bottle, use an aerator. I have *this one*, but any brand works.
> 
> ...


Agree, it's very fascinating the role oxygen plays in both the creation and the serving / consumption aspect of wine.


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## purpletongue (Nov 21, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> two years ago I made a really out of balance mulberry, ,, since then I have designed TA to fit the sweetness I like on finished wine.View attachment 68474
> 
> commercial sodas, teas, juice boxes, cider, etc also will produce a sloped line, but shifted to the left. ,,, a guess is that 10 to 14% alcohol has an innate sweetness ,,, wines from others, are in this data set


This is an interesting graph. I think it deserves a new thread. I'd like to hear you explain your thought process and what the data means to you.


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 21, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> This is an interesting graph. I think it deserves a new thread. I'd like to hear you explain your thought process and what the data means to you.


To me the data set means,
If I am formulating a mixed berry juice or a bottle of tea or a natural soda with high consumer acceptance, I should aim for the line. 
If I am formulating a kids beverage as high C I should stay in the area called sweet.
YES there are exceptions to every rule which can maintain grocery store shelf space that are off the line but then I have to also figure out where the balance is (ex long flavor notes and high acid in cranberry juice)
Wine is a food product and has traits that follow grocery store products (in this culture/ market)


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## purpletongue (Nov 24, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> FYI- as long as you have CO2 build up in the headspace you have a protective gas.


Yes, you're right, during primary and secondary it isn't so much a problem dealing with headspace because the must is producing c02. In primary lots of headspace is fine. Secondary, well it's sort of up to the neck. But once it's not producing c02, then it's gotta be no headspace at all and 02 becomes a real enemy. And that's where racking down and topping up etc... is sort of annoying. But perhaps as I gain more experience the flows between the vintages will prove easier.


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## David Lewis (Dec 4, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> two years ago I made a really out of balance mulberry, ,, since then I have designed TA to fit the sweetness I like on finished wine.View attachment 68474
> 
> commercial sodas, teas, juice boxes, cider, etc also will produce a sloped line, but shifted to the left. ,,, a guess is that 10 to 14% alcohol has an innate sweetness,,, wines from others, are in this data set


@Rice_Guy - I noticed that you are using TA here. Curious to know how many others calculate TA in addition to PH. I remember a post (somewhere at some time) that mentioned not to worry about TA and focus on PH. Because of this reading, I have 100% ignored TA. Am I missing something, and if so how helpful is that TA reading?


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## David Lewis (Dec 4, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> This is an interesting graph. I think it deserves a new thread. I'd like to hear you explain your thought process and what the data means to you.


100% agree with this. I finally re-bottled my year one 'one hundred and one mistakes' wine. After I bottled, I had a large glass left over. I was pretty happy with the corrections that I had made to this screwed up wine
I felt like I had fixed as much as could fix and I should just bottle it and accept the fact that year one wasn't going to be a winner. I just needed to bottle. And after bottling I drank the left over happily. After 2-3 (maybe 15) sips I realized that it had a flat taste to it. Took a PH reading ( I had just gotten a Ph meter and have been using it for my latest batches but wasn't smart enough to use it on a beach that had been in a carboy for 2 years). After the reading tossed some acid in the glass I was drinking.... And wow. This POS wine that I made was good (Good is subjective this time). Now I just have to un-bottle everything, adjust the acid, and then re-bottle. Just not sure I have enough energy.


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 4, 2020)

for most foods we are in a range which is with in reason, ,,, pleasing, ,,, lemon juice and Mountain Dew both have a pH in the mid 2’s however Dew has a low TA (.2%) so the impact on the mouth is fast/ refreshing, , lemon juice typically has a TA of 5% so it has a larger impact on the mouth and a lot of folks wouldn’t drink it straight
* my analogy is that pH is like how fast is dad driving when I stick my hand out of the car window and play airplane, mostly it is pleasant/ transitory and fun.
pH plays a regulatory role, some enzymes will become inactive (ie organisms can’t live) and some chemistry will run faster or as in the balance of sulphite in solution versus free SO2 in the wine.
* TA is related to how much of something is hitting our taste receptors, with dad driving air is light and we think nothing of it, if we change it to bugs in the night air they might sting if dad drives fast but they are nothing at 20 mph, now if the object is stones tossed off a pedestrian bridge it would hurt even if we go 20 mph and may require the emergency room if this was on a freeway.


David Lewis said:


> 100% agree with this. I finally re-bottled my year one 'one hundred and one mistakes' wine. After I bottled, I had a large glass left over. I was pretty happy with the corrections that I had made to this screwed up wine
> I felt like I had fixed as much as could fix and I should just bottle it and accept the fact that year one wasn't going to be a winner. I just needed to bottle. And after bottling I drank the left over happily. After 2-3 (maybe 15) sips I realized that it had a flat taste to it. Took a PH reading ( I had just gotten a Ph meter and have been using it for my latest batches but wasn't smart enough to use it on a beach that had been in a carboy for 2 years). After the reading tossed some acid in the glass I was drinking.... And wow. This POS wine that I made was good (Good is subjective this time). Now I just have to un-bottle everything, adjust the acid, and then re-bottle. Just not sure I have enough energy.


Rebottle question, in this situation I would create a solution as a one acid to four water and syringe the target milliliters into each bottle and then recork said bottle


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## Venatorscribe (Dec 5, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> @David Lewis, remember that good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
> 
> Another important lesson is that not all wines are going to turn out great. Yes, we want them to ... but things don't always go our way, regardless of what we do. So we figure out how to make the best of the situation.
> 
> Last year's Malbec has an aftertaste that I can't identify, it's harsh. My solution was to back sweeten with cherry juice -- I'm still not terribly fond of it, but everyone else likes it. I call it a win!


Just give it another twelve months. Malbec is a bea wine but can be a tad harsh depen upon terror. But it sorts itself out. However - a lot of vintners will blend it with cab sav and merlot to soften. 50% merlot 25% and 25% Malbec and cab sav. Don’t back sweeten with cherry juice. You have gold on your hands with the Malbec. Cheers


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## winemaker81 (Dec 5, 2020)

Venatorscribe said:


> Don’t back sweeten with cherry juice.


Too late, already bottled. However, everyone else likes it and it's a great party wine, so it's not really a loss. Especially if another year will change it. Thanks for the tip!


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## winemaker81 (Dec 5, 2020)

JohnT said:


> David Lewis said:
> 
> 
> > One of these days I will make a wine that is worthy enough for a barrel!!
> ...


I had another "ah ha" moment this morning, as I re-read @JohnT's reply. I've come back to this post several times, as something in the two statements stuck in my mind.

For home wine makers, barrels often take on a sort of mystical quality, sort of a Holy Grail. This was true for me and I see it in many others.

This is my 39th year of wine making -- my first barrel was purchased in the 38th year. I wanted one for decades, but space, cost, etc. stopped me from pulling the trigger. Last year a couple I met through our grape purchasing co-op offered a used barrel for sale, so I jumped on it. This past year has disabused me of many notions, and increased my practical knowledge.

Barrels are not anything mystical -- barrels are simply a time-tested wine making tool. New(er) barrels add oak character. All barrels provide micro oxygenation and concentration of the wine. For some wines, a barrel is absolutely necessary to produce the desired end result. But at the end of the day, a barrel is simply a tool.

A lot of wines do not use oak -- French Chablis never touches oak, nor does Beaujolais Nouveau. For me, 3/4 of one batch from last year spent 10 months in oak, the remaining 1/4 did not. Both wines are very pleasing and I'm happy I did what I did. I sort of wish I had a 50/50 split, but this illustrates the drawbacks of barrels:

They must remain full of something, either wine or a holding solution (when you have 20 gallons of wine and a 14 gallon barrel, 14 goes into the barrel). Wine remains in the barrel until new wine is ready to go in (which is why I wanted a neutral barrels).

Barrels must be regularly monitored. They must be topped up, as evaporation through the wood consumes about 10% of the wine over a year's period, e.g., my 54 liter barrel will cost me ~5.4 liters of wine, making the remaining wine all that much better.

I purchased another used barrel this year so now I am tasked to keep both full.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 5, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> I noticed that you are using TA here. Curious to know how many others calculate TA in addition to PH. I remember a post (somewhere at some time) that mentioned not to worry about TA and focus on PH. Because of this reading, I have 100% ignored TA. Am I missing something, and if so how helpful is that TA reading?


pH and TA are different measures of acid levels, and are not necessarily in sync. These tests provide good information regarding the wine. However titration of red wine is difficult to correctly spot the color change, so I suspect this is one reason a lot of folks don't test for TA.

I truly suck at acid titration, so I don't bother with it.


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## AaronSC (Dec 5, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> pH and TA are different measures of acid levels, and are not necessarily in sync. These tests provide good information regarding the wine. However titration of red wine is difficult to correctly spot the color change, so I suspect this is one reason a lot of folks don't test for TA.
> 
> I truly suck at acid titration, so I don't bother with it.


With a good pH meter it's easy to test for TA, much easier than titration. I fill up a syringe with buffer solution and weigh it. I take 5 ml of wine and add 15 ml of distilled water. You just continuously monitor the pH of the solution until you reach pH of 8.2, when all the acid has been neutralized by the buffing solution. Weigh the syringe again and take the difference and this will show you the number of ml of buffer you used (1 g solution = 1 ml, the beauty of the metric system). With the solution I have 1 ml = .2% TA, so you essentially double the mls to get the % TA. If you used 3.2 ml of solution you have .64% TA.

I now no longer hate or suck at determining TA!

-Aaron


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 6, 2020)




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## winemaker81 (Dec 6, 2020)

AaronSC said:


> I now no longer hate or suck at determining TA!


LOL!

Which pH meter do you have?


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## David Violante (Dec 6, 2020)

AaronSC said:


> With a good pH meter it's easy to test for TA, much easier than titration. I fill up a syringe with buffer solution and weigh it. I take 5 ml of wine and add 15 ml of distilled water. You just continuously monitor the pH of the solution until you reach pH of 8.2, when all the acid has been neutralized by the buffing solution. Weigh the syringe again and take the difference and this will show you the number of ml of buffer you used (1 g solution = 1 ml, the beauty of the metric system). With the solution I have 1 ml = .2% TA, so you essentially double the mls to get the % TA. If you used 3.2 ml of solution you have .64% TA.
> 
> I now no longer hate or suck at determining TA!
> 
> -Aaron


I’m curious why you weigh the syringe before and after to get the milliliters used, why not just subtract the amount used from the starting amount? It would save you a step.

Also, 1G to 1mL is only true based on the weight of your solution percentage, and will not be true for other solutions out there (Ex: 1%, 0.1%, 0.2%). Percent is grams per 100 ml. So a 1% solution is 1G in 100 ml which in mg is 1000mg in 100ml which is 10mg/ml. A 0.1% solution will be 1mg/ml.

I bring this up because you can get different percentages of solution. What solution do you use?


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 6, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> Which pH meter do you have?


That is an Extech PH100, the advantage with that brand is the “bulb” is flat so that samples as small as a drop can be run without DW dilution. The other note that should be said is if one is running 24 juice samples for the vinters club, it is easier on number of clean pipettes needed to instead weigh the sample to 0.01 gram accuracy and then multiply a correction for density (sugar solutions weigh more than water) in the final answer.


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## Snafflebit (Dec 6, 2020)

I have found that keeping good records is what helps me the most. I have a Google spreadsheet that I log every step of the winemaking process. It has saved my butt many times.
Also, I keep extra carboy plugs, bung plugs, airlocks around because Murphy's Law causes me to need something late on a Sunday night when everything is closed.
I have two hydrometers and I have never broken one (knock on wood) but I break the floating dairy thermometers like crazy. Keep extras


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## Ajmassa (Dec 7, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> I remember a post (somewhere at some time) that mentioned not to worry about TA and focus on PH. Because of this reading, I have 100% ignored TA. Am I missing something, and if so how helpful is that TA reading?



coulda been me. Ive definitely made mention of that before. The mindset came after fumbling for a couple years learning the ropes trying to play chemist in my basement. Making acid adjustments being mindful of ph and TA often was a cluster for me. Just trying to balance to 2 and 2nd guessing myself and whatnot. Then I started reading and hearing more and more winemakers make mention that they only focus on ph. And it made sense to me. 
So I won’t sacrifice an ideal ph to tweak the TA. And actually if the ph clocks in at a good range I admit I’ve skipped testing TA altogether. if I’m 3.6 or under Ill just leave it be regardless of TA. If ph is high i just adjust down to 3.6. But with the nature of acid adjustments kinda forces me to do it in g/L —so I’m using TA adjustments as a means to adjust ph—- if that makes sense. Probably confusing and I’m not explaining well. 

Cliffs notes - ideal ph- I don’t mess with it. 
high ph- will adjust down using TA & g/Lto get desired ph. I don’t have it all figured it out but I do like going by this system.


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## purpletongue (Dec 13, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> 100% agree with this. I finally re-bottled my year one 'one hundred and one mistakes' wine. After I bottled, I had a large glass left over. I was pretty happy with the corrections that I had made to this screwed up wine
> I felt like I had fixed as much as could fix and I should just bottle it and accept the fact that year one wasn't going to be a winner. I just needed to bottle. And after bottling I drank the left over happily. After 2-3 (maybe 15) sips I realized that it had a flat taste to it. Took a PH reading ( I had just gotten a Ph meter and have been using it for my latest batches but wasn't smart enough to use it on a beach that had been in a carboy for 2 years). After the reading tossed some acid in the glass I was drinking.... And wow. This POS wine that I made was good (Good is subjective this time). Now I just have to un-bottle everything, adjust the acid, and then re-bottle. Just not sure I have enough energy.


How long did your wine rest after it was bottled? How long was the secondary ferm / racking process?


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## Raptor99 (Dec 13, 2020)

I have learned so many lessons over the past few years that it's hard to choose. One thing that I learned is that wine making is both an art and a science. I started by simply following a recipe I found online. Gradually I learned that I need to measure SG and pH. Then I switched to mostly using a refractometer rather than a hydrometer. Later I started to measure free SO2 at bottling so that I could calculate how much Kmeta to add.

I still do a lot of measuring, but I realized that in the end it is the taste that matters. You need to get the chemistry right so that the yeast are happy and the wine won't spoil due to oxidation. But in the end it is all about the taste. I got to thinking that for many centuries wine makers were not able to measure things like we do, but they found a way. They used their senses to determine how their wine was doing. Of course sometimes they made really bad wine, but not always. It takes time to develop those skills, but that is my goal. Expert chefs measure some things, but many others are determined by what looks, smells, and tastes right.

So now I try to balance the art and science. In primary I can tell a lot about how it is doing by the way it looks, the smell, and the taste. I have an especially sensitive sense of smell, and I can sense a difference in the smell every day in primary. I don't measure SG every day. I can usually tell when it is ready to rack into secondary by using my senses. At bottling time I measure pH but I also taste it. Does it taste too acidic? Not acidic enough? Gradually I am trying to learn how to distinguish the "bite" in wine due to alcohol level, acidity, or tannins. Sweetening helps to moderate the bite. I'll continue to make my share of mistakes, but I want to enjoy the journey.


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## ratflinger (Dec 13, 2020)

That I didn't have to follow the directions, freelancing was allowed and encouraged!


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## purpletongue (Dec 23, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> If we have guests for dinner, I'll decant a bottle an hour ahead of time, otherwise I use the aerator.


Sounds like words of wisdom born from experience.

(edit) As home winemakers, I think decanting and aeration plays a particularly significant role. The wine isn't being aged in barrels for a long time, but it still needs that oxidation to bring out the esters and sweet smelling bouquet out of it. It needs to be warm if it's red, and it needs to be aerated, before consumption to let all that complexity settle out. *I think as a newb


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## winemaker81 (Dec 23, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> Sounds like words of wisdom born from experience.


Experience? Yeah, let's go with that. It sounds more socially acceptable than "wino".

When opening a red, I pour a splash in a glass, insert the aerator and pour a splash in a second glass -- then I compare.

I find that young reds don't get much, if anything, from the aerator, but wines 2+ years old often do. Sometimes it's a wash, and on rare occasion the aerated wine isn't as good. For situations like that, I pull the aerator and keep going.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 23, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> When opening a red, I pour a splash in a glass, insert the aerator and pour a splash in a second glass -- then I compare.



Great idea! Thanks.


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 24, 2020)

will need to think about this, ,, and collect some reds to try


winemaker81 said:


> I find that young reds don't get much, if anything, from the aerator, but wines 2+ years old often do. Sometimes it's a wash, and on rare occasion the aerated wine isn't as good. For situations like that, I pull the aerator and keep going.


as a guess it wouldn’t do anything for cherry or rhubarb or white


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## winemaker81 (Dec 24, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> as a guess it wouldn’t do anything for cherry or rhubarb or white


For a traditional white (fermented from juice) aeration doesn't seem to make any difference, not enough tannin. For a white fermented on the skins? It might.

I wouldn't expect aeration to make a difference in a fruit wine ... but it's worth trying. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!


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## sour_grapes (Dec 24, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> When opening a red, I pour a splash in a glass, insert the aerator and pour a splash in a second glass -- then I compare.



So I did this last night to a young commercial Zin. My wife blind-taste-tested, and easily picked the aerated one. (I agreed it was better.) Thanks again.


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 24, 2020)

? ? however if I am using bitter sweet crab apple for tannin it should help


winemaker81 said:


> For a traditional white (fermented from juice) aeration doesn't seem to make any difference, not enough tannin. . . . I wouldn't expect aeration to make a difference in a fruit wine ... but it's worth trying. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!


again interesting observation


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## winemaker81 (Dec 25, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> however if I am using bitter sweet crab apple for tannin it should help


Good point. It makes sense that any fruit wine with tannin levels approaching red wine levels would benefit, light or dark colored.

I've only got 1 bottle of elderberry left -- I may open it today when my son & his fiance arrive -- she and her mother love the elderberry so I've been giving it to my future d-in-l. We'll taste a sample and she can take the remainder with her.

*Note:* In addition to being an interesting experiment, it's also "promoting good relations with the future in-laws via wine!"


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## purpletongue (Dec 28, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> I find that young reds don't get much,


That's interesting. As a newb I find I'm trying my wines quite young. And the difference between letting it breath and decant vs. straight out of the bottle is pretty profound, but I only have a few vintages under my belt so I see your point that it's not a solid rule, and too much of 02, being "fermenters" can obviously be a bad thing. Another note, I find even after degassing, with a young wine there is still small trace c02. My hypothesis is when this is lifted out during decanting, swirling, it pulls out with it some of the esters and phenols which increase the bouquet (the point of swirling after all), and the introduction of o2 smooths out the edges of the underdeveloped sharp young wine.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 28, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> That's interesting. As a newb I find I'm trying my wines quite young. And the difference between letting it breath and decant vs. straight out of the bottle is pretty profound, but I only have a few vintages under my belt so I see your point that it's not a solid rule, and too much of 02, being "fermenters" can obviously be a bad thing.


It may be that your nose and palate are more sensitive than mine.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 29, 2020)

@purpletongue, I was thinking about this last night when I opened a of my 2019 unoaked 2nd run blend (mixture of Malbec, Merlot, Zinfandel). Just for the heckuvit I compared straight and aerated samples of the wine. I couldn't detect any difference in the aroma, but the aerated had a jammier taste to it.

Thinking further, I realized that most of the wines where I didn't experience any between the aerated and unaerated samples were the budget California reds, like Apothic. My understanding from a recent thread is that a lot of wines in this category use MegaPurple and possibly other additives. This makes me wonder if that has any effect upon the effects of aeration?


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## purpletongue (Dec 31, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> @purpletongue, I was thinking about this last night when I opened a of my 2019 unoaked 2nd run blend (mixture of Malbec, Merlot, Zinfandel). Just for the heckuvit I compared straight and aerated samples of the wine. I couldn't detect any difference in the aroma, but the aerated had a jammier taste to it.
> 
> Thinking further, I realized that most of the wines where I didn't experience any between the aerated and unaerated samples were the budget California reds, like Apothic. My understanding from a recent thread is that a lot of wines in this category use MegaPurple and possibly other additives. This makes me wonder if that has any effect upon the effects of aeration?


I think I seen Apothic before isn't it very sweet? Not familiar with megapurple additives. Sounds like it sucks and is a commercial hack.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 3, 2021)

@purpletongue, MegaPurple is a commercial grape concentrate that is used for color and a hint of sweetness. *Here is* one description.

Apothic is one of a group of CA reds typically priced $8 to $12 USD. Technically it's a dry red, but if it has MegaPurple (apparently most vendors don't admit to it) it will have a tiny bit of sweetness that enhances flavor.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 6, 2021)

_yesterday was a sweetening bench trial on a crab apple (tannin) brouchet, the principal of improving with air exposure over night seems to also apply, today milder and the favorite was a lower sugar._


winemaker81 said:


> Good point. It makes sense that any fruit wine with tannin levels approaching red wine levels would benefit, light or dark colored.





Rice_Guy said:


> ? ? however if I am using bitter sweet crab apple for tannin it should help


Question:
.what kind of chemistry is going on? (polymerization of tannin as it turns less reductive ?)
.was something else happening since the samples sat over night with air?
.bottle shock type of chemistry?


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## winemaker81 (Jan 6, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> was something else happening since the samples sat over night with air?


Finding an informative article on breathing seems tough. Most of the articles I read gloss over the details, other than tannins. However, one article said that breathing affects pigments in the wine, and stated that is one reason why reds benefit more than whites.

I would not think that applies to crab apple wine, as the wine is light colored. I wouldn't think it bottle shock, as my experience is that bottle shock is a negative. My best guess is the tannins softened via oxidation overnight.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 6, 2021)

it could be pigment




winemaker81 said:


> Finding an informative article on breathing seems tough. Most of the articles I read gloss over the details, other than tannins. However, one article said that breathing affects pigments in the wine, and stated that is one reason why reds benefit more than whites.
> 
> I would not think that applies to crab apple wine, as the wine is light colored. I wouldn't think it bottle shock, as my experience is that bottle shock is a negative. My best guess is the tannins softened via oxidation overnight.


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## David Lewis (Jan 21, 2021)

OK, so I broke down and decided I should drink MegaPurple straight. You should see my tongue now; my eight year thinks that I cursed.

Thank you everyone that has provided input on this thread. So much info was provided and I still need a season or two to take in some of the advice that was given from you all!!! 

I had a tasting tonight with a close group of friends that 'allowed' them to taste the progression of the wines that me (and my small group) have created For this comparison, varietal meant nothing. It was all about drinkability. 

Year 1/2018 grapes - (bottled and fixed and fixed again and fixed again) - *F . *This wine has no hope. We have tried to fix all the screw ups but it just is not good (except for that one guy that will drink anything)
Year 2/2019 grapes - About to be bottled. Some slight fixes for O2 issues - * D+* . Not good, but it is better than most 8$ wines. Group consumes was 2 out of six would throw it away; 3 out of six would drink it but not love it; and that last guy will drink anything.
Year 3 /2020 grapes- no fixes. This wine was just pressed this fall. - *B-* . I am ecstatic at this point. All varietals are coming in as OK. At this point I am passing, but I still have many months to screw up. hopefully I dont turn that B into anything lower. I'm crossing my fingers on that one.
Wish me luck, and thanks for helping me down the road. 

On a side note... I have followed each post to this thread as they have come in... but it wasn't until tonight as I re-read this thread that I realized that I still have so much to learn and soo many gallons to screw up. The support in this group is amazing and thank you everyone that has contributed to the forums here!!


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## Snafflebit (Jan 21, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @purpletongue, I was thinking about this last night when I opened a of my 2019 unoaked 2nd run blend ...



Sorry for the side discussion, but do you find second run fermentations to be generally pretty good?


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## winemaker81 (Jan 21, 2021)

David Lewis said:


> I had a tasting tonight with a close group of friends that 'allowed' them to taste the progression of the wines that me (and my small group) have created For this comparison, varietal meant nothing. It was all about drinkability.


If you haven't already, read through *this thread*. The OP is unhappy with a rose and the crew tossed out ideas regarding how to make use of the wine. I won't ruin the surprise ending, but advise watching the video.

Monday we bottled my son's second wine, a blackberry melomel that he sweetened with cherry juice as the wine was flat and tasteless. He sweetened it in July or August, but was unhappy with the result, so he ignored it. I pushed him to bottle it.

During bottling we discovered that the blackberry flavor, while light, has come out so it's not a total disappointment. During a post-bottling glass of Coffee Port, we searched on Sangria, Mulled Wine, and other recipes. While it's not what he was hoping for, he's now satisfied that it will get used.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 21, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> Sorry for the side discussion, but do you find second run fermentations to be generally pretty good?


The short answer is yes. 




My 2019 is a blend of Malbec, Merlot, and Zinfandel -- I was going to age them separately but realized it was more work than I wanted. So the three were fermented separately and then field blended. I reserved a carboy which remained unoaked and put the remainder in a neutral 54 liter barrel with 6 oz Hungarian oak cubes, which barrel aged for 10 months.

The wine is lighter than the 1st runs in color, body, and flavor, but still a very tasty lighter red wine.

The two wines are totally different -- the unoaked is very fruity and the Zinfandel is very forward. The oaked still displays fruit but has nice oaky notes and is richer (barrel aging will do that). I suspect that both have aging potential, but other than a few bottles, that won't happen. 2nd run is what ya drink while the 1st is aging ...

*However* ... how you make the 2nd run is tremendously important. Don't press the 1st run hard, as you'll take all the "goodness" out of the pomace and leave nothing for the 2nd run. I was taught to use half as much water as the yield of the 1st run (e.g., first run is 10 gallons, use 5 for the 2nd run). Last year and this year I used ~40% instead of ~50%, and the wine comes out richer. Quality over quantity.


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## David Violante (Jan 22, 2021)

(my edit was taking out some pronouns... the bane of my existence)

@winemaker81 Bryan, your post about using less water for a better concentration on second runs had me thinking about ways to concentrate wine for better flavor, feel, etc... (spawned in part from how Coloma concentrates their juices). There's of course using more fruit and less-to-no water, and also as I've learned here, using a barrel because it will also concentrate the wine by drawing out water.

I found a website that has a super interesting study on the actual evaporation of water out of wine in barrels, based on differing humidity and temperature. Long story short, the higher the humidity of where the barrels are stored, the less water pulled out of the wine. It seems like we're looking for a more flavorful wine by doing so, but in larger operations it could lead to a significant loss of wine (and revenue) and also an increase in percentage of alcohol. 

Here's the link from microcool citing a study from 1991
Here's a PDF lecture from JHenderson on Barrels & Ageing (2014)
Here's a link to a similar study in the Journal of Applied Thermal Engineering (2004)


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## winemaker81 (Jan 22, 2021)

@David Violante, I will read the studies you listed, but I can already agree with your point. The former owner of my 54 liter barrels said topup was about half a liter per month. My experience was closer to 3/4 liter.

However, last year my one barrel was in a position where it got some sun. This year both barrels are protected from the sun, and my topup is far less.

To the best of my knowledge, alcohol evaporates with the water, so the ABV remains the same. I'll have to look into that.


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## David Violante (Jan 22, 2021)

Here is a better link to the study in the Journal of Applied Thermal Engineering.

Conclusion:
This paper analyses mass transfer through the staves of oak casks. The conclusion drawn is that the stationary stage of mass transfer in a cask can be modeled using a Fickian type diffusion model. Mass transfer modelling depends on the internal and external transfer coefficients, which are both fitted to experimental data.The adjusted data are applied to 2 case studies, and in both cases the absolute error of the model is 0.2%. The model can therefore be said to predict wine losses satisfactorily in ageing facilities,depending on the porosity of the oak used and the temperature, relative humidity and air velocity in the cask area. The model is useful for establishing interior design conditions for ageing facilities to maintain wine losses to a predetermined percentage. Applied Thermal Engineering 25 (2005) 709–718717


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