# Transplaning old plants, stumps with new shoots help needed



## Kilohertz (Jul 22, 2017)

Hi all!

Brand new to grape growing, but old in many other ways.  I have a hop yard with about 130 plants and decided to add some grapes to the acreage.

It all started last week with a complete landscape reno job I was hired to do, clearing a 1/3 acre of all the homeowner's grass, garden and grape vines, they're going with Xeroscape. Anyway, first task was he wanted all the grape plants/stumps removed and all other weeds around them. He had already cut them off with a chainsaw last year, they were mature large plants with 3-5" trunks, the house was built in the 90's and the grapes are probably 15 plus years old?? This spring they all started new shoots and were growing very vigorously when I arrived last week with my excavator. I asked the homeowner if I could keep the stumps and said yes, decided that I would salvage as many as I could so I began digging them up. Tried to get as much root as I could without too much damage to the plants new growth. They came out with a bit of a struggle and certainly not the best way to remove, had to cut/break some of the larger horizontal roots but I got them all out, probably about 25-30 total. Brought them home and wrapped all the root structure with burlap sacks and soaked them with water and placed them in a shady area below my deck, out of the hot summer sun. Within 3 days the leaves had wilted and dried on all but 2 stumps, but the shoots are still soft and green and most are about 2-4' long. I soak the burlap twice a day and have an area about 1600 sq' to put them in. I just don't have my Bobcat or Excavator at home right now as they are on the job site and will be for another week or so. I have all the equipment and materials for the vineyard, 100's of 8-9' fence posts, trellis wire and a post hole auger, drip lines and all the irrigation bits required, so building the yard will be a snap, I am just concerned about the plants right now, that all this might be a lost cause.

What can I do to keep the plants as healthy as possible before I can get them in the ground? Am I doing the right thing keeping the roots moist? Should I cover them in loose dirt instead? I have a large pile of 10 year old horse manure that I could put them in, but it is in direct sun all day, maybe that would be a good thing to do??

Some details which may be important....I live in the sunny Okanagan outside of Vernon BC. Plants came from wine country in the heart of the vineyard area in Kelowna. Most of them are wine grapes, no idea the variety but he said the previous homeowner was a HUGE wine maker, had a whole section of the homes basement setup for wine making, hundreds of bottles left there etc. There are about 5 or so table grapes plants...I tried to keep them separate but by now are probably all mixed up. 

My goal is to have some plants which will allow me to make some wine some day, and have a some fruit for the fall to enjoy, if it works, great, if these don't make it, then I will start over and do it again next year with known good practices.

Anyway, I look forward to becoming part of the community of grape growers and wine makers, and appreciate any and all help you may be able to provide.

Cheers!


----------



## salcoco (Jul 22, 2017)

I would continue to keep the roots moist . prior to planting cut off the dead shoots. the problem you may have is that if they start to grow this late will they be strong enough to last the winter. regardless plant all the roots and although none should show any shoot growth let them overwinter. the roots will grow and next spring you should have grape vines. once they start in the spring reduce the shoots to one util growth is at trellis height. growth should be vigorous because of the root size. good luck


----------



## Kilohertz (Jul 22, 2017)

Thanks for the encouraging words! 

Have been reading some more on the topic and I think I am going to move them to the manure pile, it is very old and loose fluffy and easy to get all the roots buried. I have one Bobcat here and I plan to fill the bucket with water and let them soak in there for a few hours then plant them in the pile of dirt. Once I get my other equipment home in a week or so, I can dig the holes, plant the poles and setup the drip lines. Until then, I just have to water them with the hose every day and hope they stay green inside the roots and stump.

Again, thanks!


----------



## Kilohertz (Jul 22, 2017)

Well phase one has begun, hopefully this will buy me some time until I get the machines home to build the vineyard. Fluffed up the pile and made a spot to plant temporarily, have a sprinkler setup on a timer. Should I water every day? Enough to keep the soil moist but not saturated?

Couldn't fit them all in the first load, some of the big ones shown below will go in the next batch.

Cheers


----------



## balatonwine (Jul 23, 2017)

In my humble opinion there are quite a few problems here.

- Hard to tell from photos, but I do not think you got enough of the root system. Three foot horizontal radius of roots (and probably much more vertical) on a vine that old would be a minimum. Those mature and thick roots cut too short are unlikely to pull in much water now. More, smaller, feeder roots are needed (and their microryzae).

- Wrapping in burlap is fine if you replant in a few hours. That is just to keep the roots moist. Beyond that time they should have been in water. And if you could not plant within 8 hours, then they should have been trenched an buried till you can plant. Or better, just plant into large containers (see below).

- Too much green was left. All that green was supported by a much larger root system that no longer exists. Yet, all those leaves were continuing to transpire, and just sucked out all the water from the rest of the plant, drying it out (maybe irreparably). And the plant could not pull much water from burlap, no matter how moist you keep it. Most greenery should have been cut off immediately.

- A lot of large roots seem to be cut. All entry points for disease.

- Doing this in summer. Should have been done in Spring (I know, that was not an option, but that does not make it less a problem).

I doubt many will survive. If it were me, and if I was determined to continue this project, I would just grade them and only try to save the ones with the longest main roots and the most small feeder roots (and having to choose, pick those with more feeder roots over those with just the longer large main roots). And those I would plant immediately into containers, not in the ground (I actually have a few really large containers just for this purpose - in fact, the old vines are pulled out, soaked in water a few hours and immediately put into containers). You then keep the containers in a cool, shady spot. Keep the soil most. Keep them in the containers through next summer in the cool, shady spot and keep it well watered. This is to limit leaf growth demands on the new root system that will be developing next year. These plants will need a lot of TLC for at least a year, so best not to over stress them. In two years, plant the entire root ball and soil from the container into the vineyard.

You can make large, temporary containers with geofabric. Make a multilayer tube in the diameter of sufficient size for each vine's root system and fold over the bottom. Place the tubs all together, sides touching (seams inward touching another nearby tube to prevent unraveling), so many such containers give vertical support to all of them. This type of container is far more difficult to move later, however, for final planting.


----------



## grapeman (Jul 23, 2017)

I am with Balatonwine on this one. To add to what he said you have no idea what the vines are and as such if they are susceptible to phylloxera. If they were vinifera and grafted you very likely will have a hard time getting the correct planting height to have the rootstock take root and not the top of the vine rooting so basically you lose the phylloxera resistance of having a rootstock. It seems like a lofty idea and project but the outcome is likely to be a lot of wasted time and effort. Wish I could be more upbeat about.


----------



## Johny99 (Jul 24, 2017)

Balatonwine has it. I'd select good solid chunks of root. And get them into containers. Keep the shoot length to a minimum, I pinch mine off at about 10-15 cm. I'd wait to plant in early spring, if you have a basement or root cellar you can keep them in. If not, dig them in good and deep, and keep them damp until first freeze. In the containers, I use sand, I'm concerned your manure might be a bit rich. Keep them moist, I water my containers daily down here in Washington.

Grapeman has a valid concern except I believe the Okanagan is like us with no phylloxera. All of my vines are own rooted, either from the nursery or my cuttings. Good luck, ambitious but it is fun to see a green shoot emerge from a cutting!

PS are you a sparkly with a handle of kHz?


----------



## Kilohertz (Jul 25, 2017)

Hi guys,

Sorry, been working on this landscape job and haven't been home much...out of town most of the time.

Appreciate all the good input...I remember when I started the hop farm what the learning curve was like....forgot how much each species is different and requirements are different...huge learning curve for me again....but his one caught me in my busiest time of the year, so I don't have time to dedicate to building containers and treating them like they should be, thx for the info though...I had to put them in the manure, setup the sprinkler, and get back to work. After 2 days a few of them came back to life, green leaves...looked good...then the bloody deer came in and ate the leaves...oh well. Venison on the table fed by grapes are good I hear. 

If I get a few days off anytime soon I will get the yard setup...see if I can find a way to shade the stumps...but otherwise they are on their own for the rest of the summer. 

Thanks again all who have offered guidance....will keep you posted...any other thoughts of course are welcome.

Cheers


----------



## Kilohertz (Jul 25, 2017)

New grape home....next to 100 year old "heritage hops".


----------



## Kilohertz (Jul 25, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> PS are you a sparkly with a handle of kHz?



Sparky, yes. 
...- . --... -.- .... --..


----------



## ZHill (Jul 25, 2017)

Kilohertz said:


> Sparky, yes.
> ...- . --... -.- .... --..



I smell amateur radio junkies.


----------



## Kilohertz (Jul 26, 2017)

We definitely have a smell...especially after a hamfest. 
Cheers


----------



## Kilohertz (Aug 18, 2017)

Thought I would update you on my plants...seems some of them are quite happy where they are and have sprouted new leaves, looks like 5 have new leaves and about 10 others have small white little nodes on the remaining stubs of vines that I cut back to about 10", they may open into leaves...still waiting. Weeds are doing well, providing a little shade doing what weeds do.  We are thru the hottest part of the summer now and they are getting water every day. Hopefully they will make it thru the winter then into their permanent home in the spring.

Cheers


----------



## balatonwine (Aug 18, 2017)

This is good news. Thanks for the update.


----------



## Kilohertz (Oct 23, 2017)

2

I was called back for phase 2 of the landscape job and to my surprise, found 2 more grape plants that had survived my previous land clearing, amazing how rugged these plants are...they had been run over numerous times with the Bobcat and excavator....and had grown 6' long branches since July. Unfortunately I didn't have my excavator to dig them out this time...what a pain using a shovel and pick, took a half hour to get the last 2 plants out..but they are home now and planted in with the others...total 25 now. We'll see in the spring how they do....I'll keep you posted.

Cheers


----------



## Kilohertz (Apr 13, 2018)

So here we are, spring finally seems to be here, been 7-13C most days for the last few weeks, a few chilly nights, snow has been off the manure pile with the transplants for about a week now and I am wondering when I should start to see activity from the stumps? There are a few shoots left on a few that I trimmed back to 6" or so last year after I planted them but no sign of new growth. I imagine it will be a few more weeks of heat needed to warm the soil..should I move them now into their final home in the vineyard or wait to see if they survived the winter and show some life and then move them. 

I have the excavator home this weekend and could get them moved in a day, soil is nice and soft.

Your thoughts?

Cheers


----------



## balatonwine (Apr 14, 2018)

Normally, one plants when the vines are dormant. Lets the soil settle around the roots before sap flows.


----------



## treesaver (Apr 18, 2018)

Well. we are waiting for an update! Been folowing this thread for awhile, and am curious how they did over winter! Could the person you got the grape plants from give you any insight of what cultivar they are? It would be helpfull to know for trellis accommodations and pruning! Good luck!


----------



## Kilohertz (Apr 18, 2018)

I'm waiting for an update too.  I ended up working last weekend so couldn't get them moved. Thankfully it's still cold here, it's 1C right now, only getting to 10-12C during the days and no signs of life yet on the plants. Given our very cool start to spring, I am hoping they are just dormant. Supposed to be sunny this weekend and so far not booked for work....fingers crossed.

Unfortunately no history on the plants at all, the homeowner I did the work for only has owned the house for a year, and he had no interest in the grapes, and has no idea from the previous owner what they were, except all but 4 were wine grapes, and there was an extensive amount of wine making gear left behind, hundreds of bottles etc. Too bad it was all thrown out before I got there. 

Cheers


----------



## Kilohertz (Apr 20, 2018)

Well the machine is home, it's supposed to be sunny and warm next week, going to the plant them this weekend. Shouldn't take too long with a "shovel" like this. 

More pictures to follow this weekends activities.

Cheers


----------



## Kilohertz (Apr 21, 2018)

All graded and laid out, I'm planning 8' row space with 4' plant space. Does this about right? It looks like a lot of space between the rows..I have a few documents that state this as "preferred".

What do you recommend?

Thanks


----------



## treesaver (Apr 21, 2018)

Four foot between vines is too close! I have some that I planted first that are six, and that is barely enough space between plants. The last I planted, I spaced at ten foot rows and seven foot between plants.


----------



## Kilohertz (Apr 22, 2018)

Four hours to dig the holes and plant 26 plants, they were all in by 5pm today. About 3/4 look promising with new fine roots growing from the old big roots, not a lot of fine roots but hopefully enough to get them going again. Still need to do the final leveling but the plants are in and covered. I'll give them this year to show some life and the ones that don't produce new shoots or show any life get pulled, and the holes will be filled with some new vines.

Fingers crossed...supposed to be 20-24C all week...finally. Maybe enough to get them to pop some new growth.

Cheers

PS went with 7' row spacing and 6' in row spacing.


----------



## sour_grapes (Apr 22, 2018)

Every time you post, all I do is stare at that Fastback!


----------



## balatonwine (Apr 24, 2018)

treesaver said:


> Four foot between vines is too close!



There is no single correct in row vine planting distance. Many factors involved in deciding, such as vine variety, soils, climate, training method, etc. etc. etc. "Typical" in row distances can range from 3 to 12 feet depending on the local combined factors.


----------



## Kilohertz (May 8, 2018)

Well 2 weeks in the new location and no sign of life in any of them....been 20C+ for the last few weeks or so, some rain and I have watered regularly. As this is new to me, not sure what to conclude. We are at 51DEG N, so always a bit later spring, but I would have thought they should at least be showing shoots or some activity.

Thoughts?

Thanks


----------



## treesaver (May 8, 2018)

See my last post on 0% survival of vidal blanc. Grape vines are tough, but you were torturing them pretty well! Good luck to you, just give them plenty of time!


----------



## Kilohertz (May 9, 2018)

For those of you following this saga....I found 2 today with signs of life....tiny little leaves starting to sprout, and only on the plants with previous shoots still remaining, the ones that are just stumps, nothing showing. I'll post some pics this weekend and any more updates. We had a plethora of rain today, enough to washout our road combined with all the snow melt, was a busy day of getting my equipment across the washed out area so I could continue working.

Cheers


----------



## Kilohertz (May 19, 2018)

Now up to 3 showing signs of life...23 to go. Not sure how long to give them to show signs? Anyone? If they are not going to sprout, I want to get some replacements in before it's too late in the year.

Here they are.


----------



## Kilohertz (Jun 18, 2019)

Well I just realized I haven't updated this story for a while....last year was a blur. I landed a large contract and didn't really have time to do much with the plants except water them by hand a few nights a week. So by last summer I had about 8 or 10 that showed hope but the hot summer months were hard on them and by fall most had lost leaves, the weeds had invaded and it was really just a sad state of affairs, a nightmare to keep weeded and I finally gave up. I haven't been out yet this year to even look to see if anything survived a second winter, the weeds are 4' tall and I am contemplating dozing the whole area under and starting again with new plants. I found a local supplier selling 1 gallon pot size plants for $15 each. I may just buy a number if varieties and do it again, with a nice grass between rows to keep the weeds down, drip lines, proper poles and supports.

Anyway, that's the update for now. I will hack my way thru the weeds to see if any of them show life, but the John Deere 450 is 100' from the vineyard and ready to clear the area for a new start if they are dead.

Thanks all for the support and guidance, I learned a lot, and if I ever find another vineyard parting with their plants, I will get them in the ground within a a few days. 

Cheers


----------



## ThunderFred (Jun 19, 2019)

Thanks for the update and taking us along for the ride. So often we only hear stories about success, there's much to be learned from failure. I've learned much from your thread and appreciate your efforts.


----------



## Kilohertz (Jun 21, 2019)

Well I'll be darned...I went out this morning before I went to work, and hacked my way thru what are now 5-6' of weeds, with actual trunks,  and I found all the traffic cones I had used as markers to indicate healthy plants last year, and most of them had bloody big leaves and tall shoots growing out of the stumps of the old plants, bloody amazing. I couldn't believe it, maybe the weeds created a sort of greenhouse moist environment for them, whatever it was, I am going to bring my excavator home this weekend and weed the entire area. I bought 5 new plants today as well and will incorporate those into the vineyard. Very cool, it's been very hot for 2 weeks but now we are in a cool spell and if I can get the whole area cleaned up, I can transplant the new vines into the vineyard, setup the drip lines and plant some poles and wires.

Sorry to keep this thread going, but hey, nature will find a way.


----------



## Kilohertz (Jun 24, 2019)

Pictures, say 1,000 words...

BEFORE, can't see the fastback



DURING, Gotta love that big shovel...


AFTER, finally, 6 healthy plants, still can't see the fastback  but it's there


I am a sucker for punishment or what.....


----------



## Kilohertz (Jun 25, 2019)

Here they are...


----------



## Stressbaby (Jun 26, 2019)

They want to live!


----------

