# glass marbles in glass carboy



## 697713132 (Sep 26, 2014)

ok I see where some of ya'll use glass marbles to top up with,, so to speak, my question is,, is it safe to drop glass marbles into a glass carboy without fear of chipping or breaking something,,, I do take it for granted the wine goes in first,, I am not asking about dropping into a dry carboy only a carboy with wine in it already,,, I'm dumb but hopefully not that dumb,,,, 
just hoping to learn some more,,

also does marble size matter, I mean if I got a few big ones like 1 an 1/4 to 1 an 1/2 are them ok to use as well or are they to heavy to safely drop into a glass carboy


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## roger80465 (Sep 26, 2014)

OK, just a contrary opinion here. I helped my son in law bottle wines that had marbles as spacers and I think they are a royal PITA to deal with after the fact. They were a bear to get out of the carboy and a major hassle to clean and dry. I prefer to use commercial wines to top up or another similar wine from my cellar. Far less hassle and my 'investment' is consumable, not storeable.


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## bkisel (Sep 26, 2014)

I do use marbles (and will continue to) from time to time but agree with what Roger said. I've not yet broke or chipped any but they do make a clink when they hit bottom. Don't know if larger marbles would sink faster than smaller ones. If faster I would not risk using them.

Every once in awhile when shopping with the wife I'll look for some sort of baby teething stick that might work in the place of marbles. So far I've only found teething rings.

Once you've built some stock and start doing some repeats you'll have the same or similar wine on hand with which to top off.


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## WineYooper (Sep 26, 2014)

I still use them from time to time on glass and I try to tip the carboy slightly and let them roll down the side to lesson the blow on the bottom. Never had any problem getting them out, just slowly invert the carboy and they will roll down the side. I actually add more water in and swirl around to loosen the lees on the bottom and marbles, then dump them out into an old ice cream pail. You can slow filter the water with your hand pouring them out of the carboy. I clean them just like other equipment and store in a mesh bag in my disinfectant mix in another ice cream pail. Do like my ice cream! No matter how I plan it seems I come up short when racking 2nd & 3rd times in a year and they sure come in handy. I do like to use other similar wine to top up but it doesn't seem to stay around very long so don't always have. Poor planner.


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## rodo (Sep 26, 2014)

I use them frequently and have never had a problem. However I do not use the big ones as they make emptying difficult. I also use those little glass stones that are about the same size as a marble.


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## vacuumpumpman (Sep 26, 2014)

I will use a similar wine to top off per say - 
I have tried marbles - and the air bag I developed and it is still much easier and wiser just to top off with a similar wine.

.


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## jethro (Sep 26, 2014)

Larger marbles will not sink faster than smaller ones.


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## codeman (Sep 26, 2014)

jethro said:


> Larger marbles will not sink faster than smaller ones.



Gravity will have the same effect on large and small marbles. This was settled when we went to the Moon.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

jethro said:


> Larger marbles will not sink faster than smaller ones.



Thank you, Galileo!


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## Treeman (Sep 26, 2014)

A great benefit of marbles is that once they are in the carboy you can stir the lees up by swirling the carboy. This way you do not have to open the air lock and insert another stirring tool during MLF.


Cheers!


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## Bygsky (Sep 26, 2014)

I use the decorative glass marble like thingies from the dollar store. They usually flutter going down and don't clink hardly at all. They are flat.

I prefer using them rather than topping off with other wine. As far as cleaning I pour them into a strainer then into hot water, swirl it around a bit then drain. Pour onto cookie sheets and slide into the oven at 125* for a bit.

Sounds like a lot but really isn't.


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## 697713132 (Sep 27, 2014)

*flat glass marble*



Bygsky said:


> I use the decorative glass marble like thingies from the dollar store. They usually flutter going down and don't clink hardly at all. They are flat.
> 
> I prefer using them rather than topping off with other wine. As far as cleaning I pour them into a strainer then into hot water, swirl it around a bit then drain. Pour onto cookie sheets and slide into the oven at 125* for a bit.
> 
> Sounds like a lot but really isn't.



bygsky can I ask what size flat glass vase fillers (flat marbles) you use, I see they make them from 3/8 and up an I wonder if the smaller would flutter an land softer or if the bigger ones would flutter more slowing them down even more


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## richmke (Sep 27, 2014)

codeman said:


> Gravity will have the same effect on large and small marbles. This was settled when we went to the Moon.



That is only 1/2 the story. While the effect of gravity is the same, friction is different. That was settled when a cannon ball and feather was dropped off a tower.

For very small marbles, van der Waals force has an effect. For very large marbles, moving all that water in the carboy would have an effect. For the size range of marbles we are talking about, I think the effects of friction are not materially different. 

In this instance, I think the main different is the amount of energy imparted to the carboy - how hard the marble hits. All else being equal, a marble twice the size imparts twice the energy when it hits the bottom of the carboy. For all practical purposes, that energy is transferred at a single spot. The glass can only take so much instantaneous energy before cracking. 

The mass of a marble is proportionate to the cube of the radius. A 1 inch marble has 2.3 times the mass (volume) of a 3/4 inch marble, thus imparts 2.3 times the energy when it hits the bottom. A standard 5/8 inch marble is 1/4 the mass of a 1 inch marble.

I would stick with the standard 5/8 inch marble and drop them one at a time. You can drop them quickly since they will not hit all at once.


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## bkisel (Sep 27, 2014)

richmke said:


> That is only 1/2 the story. While the effect of gravity is the same, friction is different. That was settled when a cannon ball and feather was dropped off a tower.
> 
> For very small marbles, van der Waals force has an effect. For very large marbles, moving all that water in the carboy would have an effect. For the size range of marbles we are talking about, I think the effects of friction are not materially different.
> 
> ...



You're my hero!  

[Really, my gut told me there was more to the story.]


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## Rocky (Sep 27, 2014)

Some good points, Richmke. However, I am not sure how van der Waals force comes into play in this example. Can you help me with that? Also, I was not aware of a cannon ball and a feather were dropped off of a tower. Who did that?

Actually, Galileo's principle stated that bodies would fall through a medium at the same rate provided that the effects of the medium (in this case, wine, which is essentially water) are negligible. For example, a cannon ball and a feather would fall at the same rate in a vacuum, because the effects of the "medium" would be zero.


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## Tenbears (Sep 27, 2014)

Least we not forget Archimedes principal which states an object placed in a fluid will be buoyed up by the weigh of the liquid it displaces. although a larger marble weighs more it displaces a greater volume of liquid thus it's weight coeffeciency is equal to a mass of similar density regardless of size.
Taking into account all rules of science and observation made by the great minds of the past. One could safely conclude that a marble falling through a liquid would have the same impact upon reaching the bottom regardless of it's size


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## bkisel (Sep 27, 2014)

Okay guys you're making me bring out the big guns... 






"Viscosity is a measure of resistance to flow or how easily a fluid can change its shape. Water flows very easily so we say it has a low viscosity. Oil has a higher viscosity than water and honey has a very high viscosity at room temperature so these fluids tend to flow more slowly than water.
For a marble to fall through a fluid, the fluid has to change shape to let the marble through. High viscosity fluids have a lot of resistance to changing their shape so the marble takes longer to fall. Dropping a sphere in a liquid is one of the oldest and easiest ways to measure viscosity." Ref: https://www.questacon.edu.au/outreach/programs/science-circus/videos/falling-marbles

Poster richmke is still my hero! He seems to have the best understanding and explanation of the physics involved - small vs. large marble dropped in wine filled carboy.


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## Thig (Sep 27, 2014)

Seems simple to me, a brick and a bb may fall at the same speed but that brick is going to hurt like hell if it hits your toe, the bb not so much.


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## sour_grapes (Sep 27, 2014)

> Taking into account all rules of science and observation made by the great minds of the past. One could safely conclude that a marble falling through a liquid would have the same impact upon reaching the bottom regardless of it's size



Then you surely won't mind sitting on the bottom of a swimming pool with me (holding our breath or using scuba gear), and playing "catch the stone." My assistant will drop a pebble in the water to me, and he will gently unload a boulder from a forklift to you. Are you in? 


I believe that richmke's analysis is pretty good. However, I don't think (but am not honestly sure) that we are in the regime where the friction does not differ in an important way between what we are calling "large" and "small" marbles. Due to the viscosity effect that Bkisel cites, a marble falling through a liquid will eventually reach a steady-state speed (the _terminal velocity_). I doubt that a 23L carboy is tall enough that this will happen for marbles in wine, but don't really know. Interestingly, though, the terminal velocity scales as the square of the radius of the marble (R^2). This is because the force due to gravity scales as R^3 but the frictional force (i.e., the Stokes drag) scales only as R. (Tenbears, this already takes into account Archimedes's principle.) So the terminal velocity of marbles in a viscous medium is much larger for large marbles. 

It gets worse! If we consider the energy of the marble, as rchmke did, we find an astonishing difference. As I said above, the terminal velocity V scales as R^2. But the kinetic energy (0.5mV^2) scales as V^2. And, as rchmke pointed out, the mass scales as R^3. So, put this all together, and the energy scales as R^3 (for mass) times (R^2)^2, or R^7. This is a big difference for big vs. small marbles. Comparing 5/8" marbles to 1" marbles, the ratio of the energies is (0.625)^7=0.037. So, if terminal velocity is achieved in both cases, a 5/8" marble carries only 4% of the kinetic energy of a 1" marble.


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## tonyt (Sep 27, 2014)

697713132 said:


> does marble size matter, I mean if I got a few big ones like 1 an 1/4 to 1 an 1/2 are them ok to use as well or are they to heavy to safely drop into a glass carboy



Certainly size matters, cant believe you really asked. If your marbles are bigger than ours just keep them to yourself. We have enough feelings of inadequacy already.

I have never had any crack or chip. After racking i rinse them in a strainer and store them in a wide mouth galss jar of sanitizing solution. Every now and then i will run them through the dishwasher on without detergent. I have even used them in my barrels before.


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## 697713132 (Sep 27, 2014)

*head now hurts,,*

ok,, listen fellers,, I've told you before I'm just a poor dumb country boy, with that being said I think i'll go with 3/4 flat marbles, the flutter effect should lessen the dreaded dink wince it smacks bottom,,, although I will be using a step down carboys in order to avoid any extra use of said marbiles,,,,,,,,,,, (pun intended) so from my 14 gallon ((room to bubble)) primary,,, i'll go to a 6.5 carboy to a 6 gallon carboy then a 5 gallon carboy, using 1 gallon an 1/2 gallon glass jugs for any extras,,, :I
I am very thankful for your time and knowledge


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## bkisel (Sep 27, 2014)

697713132 said:


> ok,, listen fellers,, I've told you before I'm just a poor dumb country boy, with that being said I think i'll go with 3/4 flat marbles, the flutter effect should lessen the dreaded dink wince it smacks bottom,,, although I will be using a step down carboys in order to avoid any extra use of said marbiles,,,,,,,,,,, (pun intended) so from my 14 gallon ((room to bubble)) primary,,, i'll go to a 6.5 carboy to a 6 gallon carboy then a 5 gallon carboy, using 1 gallon an 1/2 gallon glass jugs for any extras,,, :I
> I am very thankful for your time and knowledge



I see what you're trying to do... No sooner do we settle the physics of spherical marbles through a viscus medium we now have to explain flat marble physics.


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## 697713132 (Sep 27, 2014)

bkisel said:


> I see what you're trying to do... No sooner do we settle the physics of spherical marbles through a viscus medium we now have to explain flat marble physics.



dang-it bkisel I nearly wet my britches laughing,,,,,
btw how does that flat thingies thing work any-way,,lol


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## codeman (Sep 27, 2014)

Thig said:


> Seems simple to me, a brick and a bb may fall at the same speed but that brick is going to hurt like hell if it hits your toe, the bb not so much.



That's because of velocity.


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## 697713132 (Sep 27, 2014)

ok lets figure this pound of brick and pound of feather thing out once an for all, now to make this fair we'll grind the feathers in to one pound of feather dust, an grind the brick into one pound of brick dust, then ya'll can drop the pound of each dust from fifty foot on to my head an i'll let you know the deference,, now to answer any smartass questions upfront, no you can not bind the dust up tight, it's gotta be loose in order to get this right the first time round,,,


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## sour_grapes (Sep 27, 2014)

codeman said:


> That's because of velocity.



No, the brick and the BB will have the same velocity when they hit your toe.


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## richmke (Sep 27, 2014)

bkisel said:


> No sooner do we settle the physics of spherical marbles through a viscus medium we now have to explain flat marble physics. [/IMG]



All the physics on a flat earth moving through an ether has been disproved.


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## Thig (Sep 27, 2014)

codeman said:


> That's because of velocity.



I think it has more to do with mass.


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## seth8530 (Sep 28, 2014)

It has more to do with velocity. E=1/2M*V^2. However, something else important to consider is that the pressure exerted on the carboy ( which is what determines if it will break or not, not the force) is equal to the force exerted over the area. So, one should also consider the the area of the marble which will be hitting the carboy. 

Just yet another thing that needs to be factored in before it is finally decided if smaller or bigger marbles are truly better or worse.


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## bkisel (Sep 28, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> It has more to do with velocity. E=1/2M*V^2. However, something else important to consider is that the pressure exerted on the carboy ( which is what determines if it will break or not, not the force) is equal to the force exerted over the area. So, one should also consider the the area of the marble which will be hitting the carboy.
> 
> Just yet another thing that needs to be factored in before it is finally decided if smaller or bigger marbles are truly better or worse.



Wouldn't we also have to consider the surface on which the carboy is sitting? All other things being equal would a carboy sitting on of lets say a thick feather pillow be less likely to break from a falling marble then a carboy sitting on a cannon ball?


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## roger80465 (Sep 28, 2014)

After all this discussion, I'm even happier I top off rather than using marbles. Far less brain damage


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## seth8530 (Sep 28, 2014)

Nah, one can make the safe assumption that the carboy is sitting on a relatively flat and hard surface pretty safely for the sake of this analysis.

I don't think the surface that the carboy sits on would actually matter a whole lot as far as dropping marbles into the carboy goes.


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## sour_grapes (Sep 28, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> It has more to do with velocity. E=1/2M*V^2.



Seth, your comment is out of context. When it was asserted upthread that it had more to do with velocity, a _specific situation_ was being referenced (a bb and a brick falling on to your toe). In that situation, the velocity is the same. So that is why Thig (and, implicitly, I) cited the importance of mass. 

Of course, in the general situation, where both m and v are free to vary, yes, v is more important.




> However, something else important to consider is that the pressure exerted on the carboy ( which is what determines if it will break or not, not the force) is equal to the force exerted over the area. So, one should also consider the the area of the marble which will be hitting the carboy.
> 
> Just yet another thing that needs to be factored in before it is finally decided if smaller or bigger marbles are truly better or worse.



Well, if you wish. The area of impact presumably varies as R^2. So, you can knock down my analysis by two factors of R, leaving R^5. For the 5/8" vs. 1" marble, that still means that a 1" marble is 10x worse.


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## 697713132 (Sep 28, 2014)

OK NOW I UNDERSTAND,, THIS IS ALL TO BREAK ME FROM ASKING FURTHER QUESTIONS,, 
DANG YA'LL ARE MART
LOL


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## 697713132 (Sep 28, 2014)

BTW: I think ya'll mite bee driving me to drunk


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## seth8530 (Sep 28, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Seth, your comment is out of context. When it was asserted upthread that it had more to do with velocity, a _specific situation_ was being referenced (a bb and a brick falling on to your toe). In that situation, the velocity is the same. So that is why Thig (and, implicitly, I) cited the importance of mass.
> 
> Of course, in the general situation, where both m and v are free to vary, yes, v is more important.
> 
> ...




Yup yup, sound right to me. Context matters. I guess overall the real important question is how much safety margin one really has.


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## bkisel (Sep 28, 2014)

697713132 said:


> OK NOW I UNDERSTAND,, THIS IS ALL TO BREAK ME FROM ASKING FURTHER QUESTIONS,,
> DANG YA'LL ARE MART
> LOL



No, no you're not the problem it is folks (not me of course) that should be spending more time making wine and less time on the computer.


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## freqflyer (Sep 28, 2014)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I will use a similar wine to top off per say -
> I have tried marbles - and the air bag I developed and it is still much easier and wiser just to top off with a similar wine.
> 
> .



Air Bag? Please explain. Do you have pictures?


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## Bygsky (Sep 29, 2014)

Wow. Had to step away for several days and this. 

To think I used terms like thingie and flutter.....


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## 697713132 (Sep 29, 2014)

Bygsky said:


> Wow. Had to step away for several days and this.
> 
> To think I used terms like thingie and flutter.....



yup ,,, but I understood you,,,lol
the rest are punishing me I think,
this is why I never ask my younger brother about much,,,lol
2 phd's (1 engineering the other no clue) has seen to it he cant talk plain English no more,, flutter and thingie are totally understandable,,,,,,


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## tonyt (Oct 5, 2014)

697713132 said:


> yup ,,, but I understood you,,,lol
> the rest are punishing me I think,
> this is why I never ask my younger brother about much,,,lol
> 2 phd's (1 engineering the other no clue) has seen to it he cant talk plain English no more,, flutter and thingie are totally understandable,,,,,,



My son is in the oil industry, CPA background, one day I made the mistake of asking him to explain fracking. Yawn...


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## Thig (Oct 5, 2014)

tonyt said:


> My son is in the oil industry, CPA background, one day I made the mistake of asking him to explain fracking. Yawn...



Some of us CPAs can speak plain English, see post 18 above.


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## tonyt (Oct 5, 2014)

And to think that the OP only wanted to know if size really matters.


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