# Kennell Estates Vineyard & Winery



## fivebk

Hi everyone, I am new to wine making with only two batches started to date.

This last summer I decided to start making my own wines and since I live on a small acreage I decided to take the plunge full bore. I have ordered 27 vines for spring 2009 delivery. Before cold weather set in I had all my trellis poles set. Since I live in NW Missouri I had to find cold hardy grapes. I have 8 each of St Croix, Vignoles , and Frontenac Gris , coming and 3 vines of Edelweiss since I already have 3 of these started . Last spring I planted the 3 edelweiss vines and in one season they grew to the top wire and 5 feet each way. If everything goes well, I would like to be able to produce good wines from grapes I’ve grown myself. I also have two apple trees, two cherry trees (one sweet and one sour), two pear trees, three plum trees, and one peach tree. I also will be experimenting with fruit wines from these trees. 





The building in the background will be my future winemaking area.</font>





Future Home Vineyard </font>




Future Home Vineyard </font>





Future Home Vineyard </font>





First Year Edelweiss Vine - planted spring of 2008 </font>





My Future winemaker - Granddaughter Caydence</font>

I did a lot of reading before I started all this and am very excited to start this project. I really enjoy this site and know that if I run into any snags along the way that there are a whole lot of folks on this site willing and able to help.

Bob</font>


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## fivebk

OOPS!!!
Forgot to add my wine in the making.





Apple Wine





Cherry Zin





Both wines bulk aging


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## NorthernWinos

Thanks for sharing the photos of your projects....Your trees are looking real good.

Your wines look great...The apple wine is awesomely brilliant.


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## admiral

Nice looking farm! Nice looking wines! Nice looking family! Thanks for the photos.


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## grapeman

It looks like you have some room to expand there Bob. Great job on the prep work. I bet you can't wait for the spring thaw to get started!


We look forward to a lot of sharing from you about your projects and winemaking. Great to have you aboard.


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## fivebk

Thanks to everyone for all the encouragement . It's true I can't hardly wait for sring . 

Appleman I do have room to expand if everything goes well. I have an additional 2 1/2 acres of land just to the south of my trellises. 

BOB


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## Wade E

Looking good there fivebk!


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## AlFulchino

Bob, its all looking good....oneof yourpictures hit me...tell me about that cherry zin.....i have always been a cherry lover...and to combine it w the wine my grandfather made suits me...i am all ears


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## fivebk

Al Fulchino The cherry zin I made is not from zinfandel grapes I got the recipe from another cite it sounded interesting so I tried it . It is made from welches grape concentrate , cherries , blackberries , blueberries , peppercorns , and oak chips . Cherry zin was just the name put to the recipe . I don't know how it will turn out but it is supposed to be good.It has only been bulk aging for about 6 weeks.

BOB


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## AlFulchino

it sounds delicious...when you get a chance let us know how it came out


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## fivebk

Hi everyone , I will be starting a small vineyard this spring ( 30 vines ) . I already have my poles set so my trellis question is this. I need to know what trellis system will work the best for the grapes I have selected?I don't want to make a mistake when I start running wire this spring. My grape selections are St Croix , Frontenac Gris , Edelweis , Vignoles , and Brianna . (My wife loves white wines) . I have done some research and I think I know what I need ,but it would take a load off of my mind if someone would verify what I need .

Thanks 

BOB


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## grapeman

Those are all hybrid grapes with trailing or semi-upright growth habit. Your easiest option for a home grower would be to use Top Wire Cordon- or TWC. You will want two wires minimum, one at about 30-40" above the ground and the top wire at about 5 feet. This top one will bear the load of the vine and crop load of grapes. Make sure the wire is tensioned either with gripples or wire tensioners. You can just pull them tight, but the crop load will stretch the wire and it will sag. 


Train the vines up a bamboo pole or something similar this year. When it reaches the top wire you can bend the shoot over to one side. I will get more into the training later this year, just ask about it later in the year. You will be growing a vine this year to put down a good foundation of roots. Next year you will form the trunk and maybe some cordon or canes. Then in the third year if growth was good the first two years, you can finish the cordons and start with a small crop.


The Edelweiss on the previous page is a good example of a vine with a good start. You could either leave it basically as is and let it size up this coming year or cut it back to just below the top wire and let new cordons form this year. That would let the trunk size up a bit better. You can leave them as is though and cut the cordons back to where they are the size of a pencil and let them expand from there.


If you keep all your questions under one post about your vineyard, it makes it easier to follow along with their growth as you progress. I went ahead and moved your post and my response over here- hope you don't mind.


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## fivebk

Thanks appleman


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## grapeman

Here is an example of a good system you can use for TWC. This one uses 3 wires at 24", 48" and 60". You notice how the wires attach to the end posts. This system uses gripples. They aren't real cheap, but it allows the wires to be tightened every year. If you buy a starter kit, it comes with the tool and gripples to get you going. One 4000 foot spool of 12.5 guage high tensile wire should be enough to do the whole thing and costs about $100 at Tractor Supply. 


By the way the shorter posts in the picture are really straight up and down- optical illusion because the next post is tilted about 30 degrees.


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## AlFulchino

Fivebk:

yes what he said! 

i will add to :
"You can just pull them tight, but the crop load will stretch the wire and it will sag."

adding that summer heat will actually stretch the wire some as well and the cold will contract the wire some and these factors should not be discounted (what is the length in your pictures?)





length of row will dictate importance of tension as well, as your tension needs decrease w shortness of row, by that i mean, a shorter length is more forgiving.

Rich you are right about the ease a TWC would bring.....i would ask next what his yard size is, expectancy of sun hours, distance between rows and length of because i have a hunch that a system w a double fruiting wire/zone would be worth the initial set-up but later producing a modest incremental increase in upkeep yet a doubling of harvest...what do you think?


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## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> Rich you are right about the ease a TWC would bring.....i would ask next what his yard size is, expectancy of sun hours, distance between rows and length of because i have a hunch that a system w a double fruiting wire/zone would be worth the initial set-up but later producing a modest incremental increase in upkeep yet a doubling of harvest...what do you think?




Are you proposing a GDC or something else?
Al I think fivebk is best off with a single fruiting zone to begin with. He can get a good crop from that zone and they will ripen better than if there is a potential overcropping situation.


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## fivebk

Al, the length of the rows are 60 feet


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## fivebk

As in my pics the end posts are angled about 60 degrees and I plan on using earth anchors with tensioners . I will probably use some wirevise units also. my rows are 10 feet apart


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## grapeman

That is about how I do mine at home also Bob, except I don't have the angled posts plus the extra ones. I tried the tensioners, but I don't like them. The gripples are 100 times easier to use. You pull the wire through with the applicator by squeesing 2 handles together. If the wire loosens with time, you just retension it. I used the ratcheting tighteners and with high tensile wire they are very hard to apply.


For you info here is a picture of the gripple tool, etc.






And a link to where you can get it.


http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=14&amp;idproduct=286


It is also a good source of vineyard supplies.


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## AlFulchino

"...St Croix , Frontenac Gris , Edelweis , Vignoles , and Brianna ..."

Rich I think Geneva Double Curtain is a good option for St Croix and F. Gris because they have great vigor...I have both of these as I believe you do also. The GDC would permit more even ripening versus say a Scott Henry.

I have Brianna and its vigor is medium plus in my view....so w some extra time GDC would work w maybe one extra year of training. His site looks like its going to be a reasonably fertile one and excess growth is always going to need to be clipped off frequently if he goes w single wire fruiting, and as he gets experience with his own set of circumstances in his vineyard he can adjust the crop. For instance in a high water/rain year you may just need extra leaf and crop to avoid low sugar numbers...in drier years he can reduce crop.....I believe that single fruiting zones are best done in low fertile or lower fertile growing conditions.

In fact, let me add this..I am using Scott Henry on an extremely fertile tract of land.....I would strongly consider GDC if I had to start all over again mostly because of possible ripening issues, sun and air flow. Nothing against Scott Henry because it DOES assist on excess vigor, and some other things as well...and definitely in high vigor sites i would choose both of these over single fruiting wires.

Also, i firmly believe that a passionate vineyard owner, of which I believe he is going to be, will dedicate the time needed to succeed if he had one wire, so the extra step for a double wire will be rewarded w more grapes and be doubly appreciated. If his site is low on fertility then i am all with you on a single wire

I do not have experience w Edelweis or Vignoles so I won't suggest anything for those at the moment.

Lastly, i appreciate the discussion with you of the pros and cons.


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## grapeman

fivebk how much farming experience do you have? We don't want to get you in over your head with fancy systems. If you are a novice a single canopy would work great. If however you are on extremely fertile soil(and it looks like you might be) and have farmed for years, then we might want to look at a split canopy system such as Al suggests.


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## fivebk

AL ,I do have a very fertile soil in this area, soil PH is perfect too. I had a local winery owner tell me to use a low wire cordon system for the vignole and brianna because of the mod vigor of these and being semi-upright in growth habit. I want to thank all for the info.

Appleman I think I will use the gripples.

Thanks again 

BOB


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## grapeman

The Vignole is certainly semi-upright but I don't know about the Brianna- Al can tell you on that one. If it is a separate row, you could use VSP (Verticle Shoot Positioning ) on the Vignole and possibly the Brianna. The downside of it is it takes a LOT of wire and almost constant attention to keep it trained. That's the main reason why I suggest TWC. The Vignoles will grow straigt up into the air for the first few weeks and then as it blossoms and fruit sets and gets heavier, they trail down to the sides. It actually works quite well. 


A word of warning for you on the Vignoles- they have extremely well filled and tight clusters. It will likely develop some botrytis. Just monitor it for smell when it does. Botricysed(sp) Vignole is actiually desired somewhat and makes a very nice wine. The Vignoles I made this last autumn had a bit of botytis in it and it is very good.


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## fivebk

Appleman I have lived on this location 3/4 of my life . My dad was a farmer / tractor mechanic. I farmed with my family untill I graduated high school,and then went to auto mechanic training . I became an ASE ceritfied master auto tech and worked within my profession untill I had a serious accident at work .I broke my back ,was paralized for a while ,and was put back together by some amazing doctors. I can get around quite nicely now but I have to do things at a much slower pace than normal.

Sorry for drifting off the subject. I do have a pretty good green thumb and can learn quickly.

BOB


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## AlFulchino

Bob

Rich is right and I am wrong about one thing for sure....too fancy of a canopy can make things somewhat harder early on until the whole project becomes second nature...there is a learning curve that can be directly associated with an effort curve and an ability to give to the project. the only person who can make the ultimate decision is you...only you know the time you can dedicate to this. And right now if you are like me, in the dea dof winter you can only guess at what you can give. I did learn it took a lot more time and effort than I understood going into my vineyard. 

In terms of your vineyard I am looking at things in a results (amount of good crop) fashion to maximize your efforts and passion for this project.

The neat thing is that since your first year should be dedicated to root growth only, you can ascertain what the best route to choose is after assessing the real life year of experience that you will be accumulating this first year. This next growing season will steer you in what direction you wish. This year, after the initial planting ( the easy part) the rest of your vineyard year will be about timing:

when to weed and how often (dont underestimate hahaha
)
when to spray and how often(dontunderestimate hahaha)
double this in the second year

when and what to prune and how often(dont underestimate hahaha)
double this in the second year

so calculate the man hours as this all occurs and see how it fits in with all the rest of your life's duties.

Since you will be cutting back the growth to pencil thickness and best two buds ( and this could be anywhere from 12" -maybe 36" from the ground) after the first year anyway, then your upper trellis wires could all just be poly wire this first year and you may just make your trellis decision then for what works for you personally and that really matters because this is *your* vineyard and then bring in the 12.5 guage or whatever you choose for whatever you decide you can best manage!


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## grapeman

Hey Bob I know a Scottish gentleman who has had his back fused and can't bend at all. Because of this he uses a GDC to split his canopy and still keep the fruit high so he can pick without bending. We need to keep any limitations in mind here. What will you use to maintain the rows with, such as mowing and spraying. If you use a tractor what wheelspace and overall width do you have. If you go with GDC you need to subtract the width of top spreader bar from the row width. If it was 3 feet, you would only have 7 feet spacing- no problem for a lawn tractor but might be too tight for a full sized tractor. 


I hope we aren't driving you crazy with all these questions, but we love to help out fellow growers


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## AlFulchino

the only pay we expect is pictures and lots of them...and maybe a bottle of your first born haahahahahaha....three years from now!!!!


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## fivebk

I have four vertabrea fused in my back and two 6 in titanium rods. I will be using a craftsman garden tractor to care for what I have (mowing sraying etc. ) so distance between rows won't be much of a concern.


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## fivebk

For all the info I am getting that sounds fair to me


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## AlFulchino

i want to see it in writing that i will get some wine!


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## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> the only pay we expect is pictures and lots of them...and maybe a bottle of your first born haahahahahaha....three years from now!!!!




Better make that four years Al- 3 to get a decent crop and a year to make the wine and bottle it!


And Bob started out good with the pictures on the last page












If you are going to continue using the craftsman, we may be able to get you set up with Geneva Double Curtain to minimize bending and maximize air movement, light interception, etc.


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## fivebk

Sorry I have'nt replied for awhile. Been doing some research and looking online for some geneva trellis crossarms. I have not had much luck. You are looking at the most computer illiterate person on the face of this planet. I type with two fingers. I think that I will make my own crossarms out of metal. I have a welder and cutting torch in the shop. Will a one foot space from the post each way be sufficient. The less bending the better. Me and bending don't get along anymore. I should'nt even be doing some of this but if I did nothing I would go crazy. So I go at my own pace and things get done ( just a little slower than I would like).I bought a roll of trellis wire from a local vineyard. A 4000 ft. roll of 12.5 ga. for 80 dollars. Should be enough with plenty to spare.


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## AlFulchino

hi there...personally i think two feet apart will not be enough..i think four feet would be better for sun and air flow and fruit maturation....the second link below shows it pretty well


there is a decent diagram w measurements on your trellis system at this page


http://www.smallfruits.org/Muscadines/production/MuscadineGro/sec14.htm

and


http://www.wvu.edu/~Agexten/hortcult/fruits/grograps.htm


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## grapeman

Here is a link to some at Orchard Valley Supply. They are mainly for metal stakes, but could give you an idea how to build some.


http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=324&amp;idcategory=12


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## fivebk

Thanks for the help 

BOB


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## fivebk

Spring has Sprung!!!!

Yesterday my wife and I were able to get starting working on the vineyard grounds. We tilled the soil in preparation for receiving our new vines which we should get in the next week to ten days.

Here are some pictures!!









Tilling the vineyard grounds.










(I had an audience while working. Left to Right Mongo & 
Tiger)








Ready for the vines to arrive.


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## grapeman

Good luck getting them in the ground. It can be a bit of work, but also a great source of pride and accomplishment. That is compunded when you finally get to make some wine from them.


Once you get them planted you will be well practiced. You can come on over and help me plant mine for the year.


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## AlFulchino

all you need now is a chair, a little bistro table, some wine and a fedora!


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## fivebk

My grape vines arrived last Wednesday. The weather was cooperating. I soaked the roots in water for 12 hours and Thursday I recuited my youngest daughter to help me plant these vines. Here are some pics.













Below - Daughter - Brittney lending a help hand (She wants wine in return for helping



)





Does this now mean I have a vineyard????????


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## AlFulchino

it does! 


it also means you have just decided to allocate a good portion of the 168 hours allotted to you for each week!


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## grapeman

That is the first step in this crazy obsession. You are now a step beyond the obsession of making wine- you are starting at the source. In a few years you will be doing crazy things like clearing land to plant vines on because you ran out of cleared land! Actually I think you have that well covered being from the plains. I know you have plenty of cleared land where you live! 


Way to go!


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## fivebk

Thanks for all the replies . Now all they have to do is grow

BOB


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## chiefmike

Looks good Bob. Nice work!


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## NorthernWinos

Looking GREAT!!!!


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## AlFulchino

you dont have to worry about them growing....especially in year two you will be suprised....what you will have to worry about is your ability to keep up.....then as you become use to the routine, you will find it easier


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## fivebk

Hi everyone,
The new vines I planted april 20th are starting to grow. There are leaves on almost every vine with a couple being a little slower ( but with several buds showing). Now comes some questions.Do I just allow the vines to grow the first year without any training, or is there something I need to do as the vines begin to grow?? 

I have three Edelweis vines that I planted last year, so this would be year 2. I pruned the smaller 2 vines back to about 2 1/2 feet from the ground and they have come on real good this spring with many buds. The larger vine ( the one I am standing by in a earlier pic ) I cut back to just below the top wire. I am wondering if I did something wrong when I pruned this vine because it has been a lot slower to show bud break and the only buds that I can see are within about 8 in. from the ground. What do I do with these 2 year old vines to start training them? Do I need to rub them off and leave only 2 vines to grow ??? When The vine that is slow to growtakes off will I be able to cut back the rest of the dead vine and grow 2 new vines?? 
Sorry about all the questions but I want to try and do things right and I know absolutly nothing about this.
BUT AM WILLING TO LEARN.

I have grass seeded between the trellis rows and it is up and growing too. I will try and get some photos of the vines and vineyard later today

BOB


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## grapeman

First a little terminology-


vine- the whole grape plant


nodes- the bumps along the canes where the buds form


shoots- the new growth during the current year growing from the buds


canes - as the shoots harden off in the fall they become canes and you hope for a copper color not dark or black (bad).


trunk - the same as a tree complete with bark after the first or second year.


Next up - the Edelweiss. You don't want all those buds growing the second year- they will divide the nutrients from the roots/ etc asnd overall growth will be less. I would keep just two or three buds down low and let these become 1 or 2 future trunks. They will grow fast. Let them grow to a few feet past the top wire if you go with top wire cordon. If it is only like July when they get there, cut them just below the top wire (make sure they are bigger than a pencil at that point. That will force a few buds to begin growing and make some summer laterals (shoots that grow from this years shoots). After they grow to a couple feet long and are a bit hardened you can train them down the top wire just like the first picture. What probably happened with that one is it grew big but developed late in the year and it didn't get a chance to harden properly before frost - and it died. Just pick up where you were and deal with what you have.


New vines- two trains of thought here. One - get rid of all but a couple shoots and train them- and end up cutting off next year anyways OR


(and you can probably tell what I lean towards) let most of the shoots grow this year to make a nice strong root system. Next year you would cut back to a couple buds and begin trunk formation.


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## fivebk

When you say a couple buds , do you wait for bud break so you know what is going to grow or prune when dormat , and how do you tell what will produce buds and what won't

Thanks for all the help

BOB


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## grapeman

I prune dormant. If you see a bud down low, chances are very good it will push at least one shoot from the node. There are actually three buds per node. Count 2-3 nodes as 2-3 buds and you will easily get 2-3 shoots from it. You can wait until they start to grow but they will bleed more profusely before healing up.


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## AlFulchino

Since Rich ishelping you wthe pruning, let me cover something else... 


since the buds are pushing right now....and since most of your vines are less than one year, you will have a bit of a pass early on as far as insect and disease pressure...but the pass doesn't last long ....have you developed a disease and insect defense?


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## fivebk

No, The only thing I thought about doing right off the bat was to start spraying with some seven. Last year when I planted the Edelweis insects were attacking them before I knew it.

As far as disease I would like to know what to watch for and what to treat with. Is there a preventative spray program that I should start so as to get in the habit of spraying

Thanks BOB


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## grapeman

I think I will let Al answer this one better for you, but think of disease control like you would in humans or animals. 
Prevention -You can do all you can to prevent it with sanitary practices and avoiding exposure (keep the canopy open and airy).




Curative- Once you get a disease, you need to get rid of it.


To further my analogy, there are separate camps for attaining these things. You can practice homeopathy (?) or conventional medicine. With plants you can use either organic practices or conventional spray programs. 


Please advise us of your personal preferences. We don't want to tell you to pump the sprays to the vines if you only eat organic!


Take it from here Al.


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## fivebk

I have no problem with sprays. nothing at my place comes off being organic.

BOB


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## fivebk

It's been eight weeks since my new vines were planted. Since then I seeded grass in between the trellises. Thought I would share some pics of how things look.






















Pics of new vine that was planted in April.





















Pic of 2 year old edelweis


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## grapeman

Picture perfect vineyard. Once the vines get grown more it will look great!


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## AlFulchino

looking great!



what will be your strategy vis-a-vis the encroachment of the grass into your rows and weeds






did you get a sprayer?


what is your wire height(s)? and what trellis style did you end up deciding upon?


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## fivebk

My weed control will probably be a hoe and maybe round up if I can use it around the vines. I have chosen to use the GDC trellis system. Top wire will be between 5.5 and 6 foot. I have a hand sprayer that I just purchased and it will only be used for insect control. I will get one for weed control and one for desease control

I would like to know if the subject of this thread can be changed as my wife and I have finally decided on a name for our vineyard. I would like to change it to Kennell Estates Vineyard & winery

Thanks BOB


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## Waldo

fivebk said:


> My weed control will probably be a hoe and maybe round up if I can use it around the vines. I have chosen to use the GDC trellis system. Top wire will be between 5.5 and 6 foot. I have a hand sprayer that I just purchased and it will only be used for insect control. I will get one for weed control and one for desease control
> 
> I would like to know if the subject of this thread can be changed as my wife and I have finally decided on a name for our vineyard. I would like to change it to Kennell Estates Vineyard &amp; winery
> 
> Thanks BOB







That should be easy Bob 
Just go back to the original 1st post. Click edit and change it to whatever you wish


Oh by the way.....Your vineyard looks awesome !! Great job


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## grapeman

It has been changed Bob. Your wish is my command, even if I am a bit slow responding lately. It is hard wearing 47 different hats!


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## fivebk

It's been a hectic year. I finally got around to taking some photos of my new vineyard. All but three of these vines were planted in April of 2009. Here are the photos.



































BOB


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## grapeman

Those have done very nicely for you this year Bob. You are keeping the vineyard spotless! Great Job! You want to come up here and clean up some of the extra weeds this year? I have run out of time for weeding. It is all dedicated to training, trimming and netting. Then soon will come harvest, and then some wine making, and then.........................


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## fivebk

I would very much love to come to your place sometime!!!!


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## AlFulchino

i am thoroughly and unequivocally impressed...that is looking darned good

has everything gone as expected? how if your disease pressure?


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## fivebk

As far I can tell I have seen no signs of disease. I did a regular insect control spraying but I also have no idea of what to look for.


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## AlFulchino

that is wonderful.....and now as the weather gets cooler it may seem that you can coast...i would however continue to watch for disease ( not because you will lose vines this year) because the cooler weather may give rise to some fungus finally finding your new vines...and it will give you a leg up on identifying things in time for next year

soon enough you will have your OWN fruit...gonna be a wonderful feeling


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## Waldo

Look awesome Bob..you have done well


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## R Ziegler

Very picturesque. Your vines could be the poster child for getting other ppl to grow them


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## NEBama

Very nice looks great.AL


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## rrawhide

Bob

You are an inspiration to all of us. Keep up the great work.

Your family must be proud.

Congratulations

rrawhide


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## OilnH2O

Looks great! (Especially because there are no deer around!)


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## fivebk

I did my part on deer control this fall!!

Here is a pic













BOB


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## Runningwolf

Very Cool!


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## grapeman

Way to go Bob! Keep the population down and out of the vines.


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## fivebk

Ok guys I'm ready to start with the questions for this season. 

I have 3 Edelweis vines that are three years old this season. Last season I let just 2 canes grow to the top wire ( I am using a GDC trellis system ) and horizontal down the wires.

What do I need to do as far as pruning these vines this year and can I let them set fruit and how much ??

For the other 27 vines I plan on pruning them back to about 18in. off the ground and take 2 canes up to the top wires Correct???

BOB


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## grapeman

On the Edelweiss unless you ran some canes each way last year, which it doesn't sound like you did, Either letone run one way as far as it can on each wire. Then during the growing season, make sure that you train a cane to go the other way on each wire. Maybe alternate the direction of run of each cane. If they are barely to the top wire, cut it off just below the wire. Then as they grow this year, train a cane each way down the wire. Does any of that make sense to you? If you have a single cane on each wire already, you could leave some grapes that form on that cane, just not a lot yet. If only up to the wire, take all fruit off.


The others, cut back to where thy are larger than a pencil width and as you say bring up to the wires during the growing season.


Is the snow going away yet?


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## fivebk

I do have cordons running down the top wires probably 8 - 10 feet and I alternated the direction to give them plenty of room. If that cordon is rather small in size ( towards the end of the run ) should I prune it back and let it grow again. If I let them set fruit what amount of clusters should I keep ( 50% )

The snow is starting to go away ( thank GOD ) I can get to all the vines to prune them except for maybe 2-3 vines.


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## grapeman

Yes prune them back to where they are pencil diameter. Since it will be the first year of those canes, each node will form a shoot this year, and each of those will get about two clusters. Those shoots will become next years spurs if you want to spur prune to cordons each year. After bloom, I would go in and thin the clusters out to about4 clusters per foot maximum this year (one per shoot). If you leave more than that, the spurs will be too small next year.


Sorry, I am horrible in writing down a good explanation and I don't have time to do a diagram on the 'puter right now.


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## fivebk

I went out and pruned a few vines this morning. I have decided not to let the Edelweis bear any grapes this year. By the time I pruned back to pencil size I only have about a 2 foot cordon on the top wire. This is why I have decided to go with growth and not rush production.

The vignoles vines look a little rough but it is probably way to early to get worried about how they handled the winter. They are the least vigorous vines in my small vineyard.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

That will probably be a wise choice in the end. Get the stucture in place. If you can do it quickly, good, if not, take the time the vines need and get it right.


Vignoles are a smaller vine anyways and do take longer to get going. They may also get knocked back from cold since they only withstand about -12-15F without a lot of damage.


----------



## fivebk

I pruned some grapes yesterday and scooped snow this morningWHAT'S NEXT I WONDER!!!!!!!!!


BOB


----------



## grapeman

It's more fun when you do both in the same day!


----------



## AlFulchino

fivebk said:


> I pruned some grapes yesterday and scooped snow this morningWHAT'S NEXT I WONDER!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BOB



spraying


----------



## fivebk

WORKI should have known that was coming






BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

weed control


----------



## MaineGal

A pleasure to read your thread Bob....You've worked hard and it is inspiring to me. Thanks for sharing. Love the pictures  Please keep 'em coming!


----------



## fivebk

I just came in from finishing up the pruning job in my small vineyard. I have a question that I think most anyone could relate to. 

Were any of you just the slightest bit apprehensive about taking a pair of pruners to your new vines that grew soo much better than you thought they would the first year and cutting them back to almost nothing?????

BOB


----------



## grapeman

It can be traumatic for you seeing what you removed. Rest assured that they will overcome that severe pruning, exceeding your expectations for growth this year. The structure of the vine will be greatly improved. No you won't get grapes this year, but next year you should get a pretty good crop. 


Where are the pictures? We want some pictures!


----------



## AlFulchino

apprehensive yes....but as Appleman says...its worth it...i had peole walk and drive by feeling bad for me that i had lost the vines because they saw nothing but little sticks......this will be the last time you ever see little on those vines for the rest of their lives


----------



## fivebk

Well I figured I better get the rest of my trellis supplies ordered, so that's what I did yesterday.

I ordered

Earth anchors
Gripples and pliers
wirevices
Vine tying material

Tomorrow I will order the rest of the metal to finish making my trellis tops. Figured I better start now before the vines decide to start growing.

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

make sure we get a picture in a yr or two of you sitting in front of your mature vines while smoking a cigar and drinking a glass


----------



## grapeman

Thanks for the reminder- I think. I need to order those supplies also for 32 rows of vines










I want some picture of the trellis going in.


----------



## fivebk

Here are some pics of my vineyard coming to life































BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Won't be long now!


----------



## grapeman

And so another season begins...............................


Good luck with them all doing well this year!


----------



## AlFulchino

your a tad before me....the only leaves i saw pop out were behind the greenhouse where its a bit warmer....the rest are just puffed up

have fun this yr !


----------



## fivebk

I have a question. Is there anything I can use to control dandelions in and around my vineyard and not hurt the grapes.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

In the row, Roundup.
In the grass between, a lawnmower. You can also pick them for a nice wine!


----------



## AlFulchino

find some people who like using the greens for salad and also like dandelion wine 



if that dont work, then do what Rich suggested


----------



## Waldo

Ah what I would for some ground like that. My ole red clay and gravel ground just begs to be like that


----------



## ibglowin

fivebk said:


> I have a question. Is there anything I can use to control dandelions in and around my vineyard and not hurt the grapes.
> 
> BOB



I hear one of these can work miracles...... (until the grapes ripen)


----------



## fivebk

NO!!! NO!!! NO!!! Mike, I had some of those years ago and one thing I learned is that they will eat everything EXCEPT!! what you want them to eat !!!












BOB


----------



## ibglowin

They make good BBQ as well!


----------



## fivebk

Well, I found some time in between everything else going on to finish building the rest of my trellis crossarms.

Here are some pics.








































BOB


----------



## grapeman

Those should hold for sure. I am putting up some double wires soon-making mine different. I will show some soon. Gotta get the rest of the posts in first.


----------



## fivebk

Sunday I got the rest of my crossarms mounted to the posts

















































BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Truly a work of art Bob!

Your grapes look very happy as well.


----------



## grapeman

Looks great. Please put an earth anchor in for each row and attach the upper wires to it for lightning protection. Sounds silly, but if lightning strikes and it isn't grounded, it will fry the row of grapes. I will be putting in a few split canopy rows also- I will show what I'm talking about soon. I'm not sure if it has been done like this before, but I'm doing it as part of my training system trial.


----------



## fivebk

Rich. I have a earth anchor at each end of the rows. I started stringing wire this afternoon and will get some pics soon.

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

looking great as everyone said......do you have any free time? i could use some trellis help


----------



## grapeman

fivebk said:


> Rich. I have a earth anchor at each end of the rows. I started stringing wire this afternoon and will get some pics soon.
> 
> BOB



Super! That will do it. I also need some trellis help. I need to install two acres worth! I will give you all the wine you can drink- just wait until you are done for the day to start drinking or we won't get anything done (a glass or two while working is allowed)


----------



## fivebk

I like the pay " BUT " the drive back and forth to work would be a [email protected]#h !!!!! If I lived nearby I would be over and help in a heartbeat. It would be a great way to learn alot about a vineyard that sooner or later I am going to need to know.

I don't think my back could take it either





BOB


----------



## fivebk

I can foresee some big road trips in my future


----------



## fivebk

Today I finished running the rest of my trellis wire. I have to say that the gripples and tool used to tension the wires made the job easy.

Here are some pics

























































BOB


----------



## grapeman

Yep, you need to come up and do that for me now Bob! Looks great! 






PS. You better start using some of those chives


----------



## AlFulchino

your trellis is better than mine!!!!!


----------



## fivebk

I'm kind of proud !!!

BOB


----------



## xanxer82

Nicely done!


----------



## ibglowin

As you should be!Beautiful job, well done Bob.








fivebk said:


> I'm kind of proud !!!
> 
> BOB


----------



## fivebk

Good morning everyone, 

Well it has been almost a month since I posted pics of my vineyard so I thought I would give everyone an update. I am going to post some and first off I want to apologize for the way my rows look . It has been very wet here lately and I have not been able to hoe.

I think things are progressing fairly well , except for the wind storms we have been having . they have been breaking some of my new growth off despite being tied up nicely . It's frustrating when I go look after a storm and see vines that have been growing so good broke off. Every time that happens I know it's a setback for production of grapes next year.

I have had no problems so far ( knock on wood ) with insect control or desease 

I need to ask the experts here a question . 
I am starting shoots along the top wire of my geneva double trellis system. What should be the length of these shoots to become my permenant cordons for next year? 
Should I let them grow as long as they can this year knowing that I will be pruning them ?





































BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Wow, those look great Bob and I am going to listen in and learn from you on this one as well. 

Everything is sooooo green!


----------



## AlFulchino

let them grow as long as they can even if they run into the next vine(s)....believe it or not but they grow thicker than if you cut them at the halfway point between vines and then grow laterals....their innate goal is to be a vine and climb some tree, so if they think that shoot has free run then it knows what to do for its survival and health

looking really GOOD!


----------



## grapeman

One thing you might do to help split the top cordon both ways is after it grows past the wire like it is about a foot or so, cut the tip back to the wire. That way it will form laterals a few buds back from where you cut it. Let those grow and after they get two or three feet long take the best end two and go each way with one on each side. Then keep tying those down and let them run like Al said. That will form your cordons for next year.


They are looking great. I assume those are the ones a couple years or so old?


----------



## fivebk

Rich, all these vines in the photos are just in their second years growth. They have almost caught up in size to my 3 Edelweis vines that are a year older.

I have cut several vines like you said and they are starting laterals. It's always nice to be able to get answers to questions when one starts second guessing what they are doing.

My Vignoles vines have not quite reached the middle wire yet. I can see by comparing them to the others that they are not nearly as vigorous. They may take an extra year to get them where I want them.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Bob the Vignoles aren't quite as vigorous, but more importantly are quite a bit later in the season than the others. At Willsboro where I have them and others, the Marquette for instance are almost touching the ground from the top wire at six foot while the vignoles have grown 12-16 inches. By mid-summer they catch up.


I thought maybe the vines you showed were only second year, but I thought I would play safe. Not everyone has vigor at their sites like we do. I'm getting frantic trying to get the rest of the trellis wires up and get the vines on them. Some of the ones I put on wire last week are up to the six foot wire, and those are Mn 1200 a naturally less vigorous variety.


They look great.


You can do like Al says also, but that only grows one side and that can sometimes become dominant. By terminating it at the wire, you can get the laterals to grow the same size to form next years cordons.


----------



## AlFulchino

yep, i am wrong, i was just assuming the basic rule of thumb


----------



## grapeman

There is no no right or wrong. You definitely want to let them keep growing and not stop them, but in order to get both sides going this year, by making that one cut at the wire, he can get two cordons to form. Give them the balance of the year to size up after that.


----------



## fivebk

Good morning everyone,

This morning I went out and worked in my little vineyard. ( tying up vines, trimming suckers etc. ) I found three leaves , low to the ground, on one vine that I think show signs of decease , but I don’t know what I’m looking at or how to treat it. 

Here is a pic of the leaves and some of the rest of my vineyard
































































BOB


----------



## grapeman

Five Gold Stars for Bob!


As long as you are using a preventative spray program, don't worry too much about a few leaves. I could be disease such as downy or also could be a nutrient deficiency which can show up on older leaves as the new growth pulls nutrients from them to make the new growth. They look great, so unless it spreads, it shouldn't be anything to fret about.


----------



## R Ziegler

Bob, 


I made a post back on July 1 about some vine issues I am experiencing called; "Vine Issues - Please Help!!!".
Al and Rich posted some good links in there to help determine what type of action that I may need to take. Like you it has been very wet here this year, andI just need to start spraying.


The first thing Al asked me was, "Have you been spraying any fungicide this year?", and the second was, "Have you gotten a soil test done?".
My answer for both was, no. I was going to start that weekend, but it up and started raining again.


Good Luck, and I bet Rich or Al will make a post in regards to your problem in the near future.


edit: HA HA!!! Rich chimed in before I even finished my post.


here is a link also. http://grapes.msu.edu/index.htm


----------



## AlFulchino

well Rich got it covered as usual...but i do have one comment.....'boy do you keep that place neat and clean, my hat is off to you.... '


----------



## grapeman

Hey Bob I have a question for you. On your GDC, are you doing two long arms alternating sides with the vines or a 4 way spit? I think I am seeing two arms on one side. I'm not sure which one has the advantage over the other. With mine I am 6.66 feet apart with the vines and am splitting four ways- two trunks, one going high and the other on the lower side-splitting two ways each. That way I have 4 - 3 foot plus cordons per vine.


----------



## fivebk

Rich, I have two long arms alternating sides. When I was deciding on a trellis system all pics I found for gdc system had the vines alternating. 

Since I have the long arms, How long should each cordon be next year? 
Right now my 3 Edelweis vines have vines growing 14-16 ft each way on the top wire.
My 2 year old frontenac Gris vines are 10-12 ft each way and the St. Croix and Brianna are just slightly shorter.
All the vines seem to be growing at a rate of 6-8 in every 5-6 days. 

Rich I really need to get an understanding of what kind of spray regiment I need to be doing. ( What kind of sprays, for what reasons, where can I generally purchase them. length of intervals between sprayings ) pretty much everything because I am somewhat overwhelmed with it all. I understand that a spray regiment for you in your area would vary somewhat from me here in the midwest, but I don't even know where to start. I need to have at least a little grasp on this before any disease decides to set in because I do not want to loose what I've worked this hard to get started.

My Dad, his Dad,and his Dad were all farmers, I chose to be an Auto Tech, but was raised on a farm and learnt to care for the crops we raised. 

As you have probably already figured out I do not have a spraying plan in place



BOB


----------



## grapeman

Bob I will try to put together a basic spray plan for you at some point soon, but for now I will just hit a few points.


First off, there aren't a ton of insect pests to worry about. Grape Flea Beetle (steely beetle), Rose Chafer, Japanese Beetle, Grape Berry moth, Skeletonizer and a few others. Only spray if the damage gets bad or lots of insects are present. Sevin works well, but is an indiscriminate killer so only apply iff absolutely necessary.


Then for diseases, you will need to worry about phomopsis, black rot, downy mildew, powdery mildew and botrytis. They all have their own times of the year and weather conditions to set them off and you need to get familiar with those. It generally only takes one or two fungicides to control all of them present at the time, so it isn't that bad.


For your area you can get the Midwest Spray Guide. Here we have the New York/Pennsylavania Guide. I will get you the links later.


We will get you on the right path soon.


You are doing a great job and we want to see you keep it up.


----------



## fivebk

Thanks Rich for taking the time to help. I know that you are already incredibly busy and I hate to bother you.

The information you, Al, and others like you offer up so freely on this site is greatly appreciated.

BOB


----------



## R Ziegler

Here is the site I was looking for earlier - I find it pretty useful. It is a canadian agro site, but it has great discriptions and useful pictures. Along with the timeframes when one needs to be aware of when the issues may arise, plus a few other things.
I hope this worksfor you.


http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1210281691267&amp;lang=eng#black


----------



## grapeman

That is a nice concise web site. Lots of good color photos and times to be on the lookout. The dates may be a bit behind Bob's but should be similar in pattern.


----------



## fivebk

thanks for the info

BOB


----------



## fivebk

When should leaves start to dry up and fall off the vines? Several of my vines are showing signs of bottom leaves drying up. We have had a few days now of very hot weather 95-98 with a heat index of 115. Humidity hovering around 75-80% Could this be a nutrient deficiency? Would it hurt to fertilize them a little?Or am I just getting paranoid????

BOB


----------



## grapeman

It is likely just a result of those leaves being older and the hot weather. Unless a lot of leaves are yellowing, I would refrain from fertilizer this time of year. If it continues, you could put a small amount of a foliar fertilizer on to make a quick correction, but it is unlikely to be needed.


----------



## AlFulchino

lets see a picture so we can see if its just the oldest or its creeping up the vine...if it is then i would recommend water in conjunction w some fert


----------



## fivebk

Here's a little update on my vineyard

All of my Edelweis, Frontenac Gris and Brianna vines have grown together on the top wires. Most of the St Croix and vignoles have grown together. A couple of vines are just a little behind the rest. Some of the vines have run 16 ft along the top wire both ways from the main trunk.

I can't believe how many bloom clusters I have picked off the vines this year to keep the vine from producing grapes. I hope that is an indication of what's to come next year.

It has been smokin HOT !!!! here the last two weeks with 90% humidity.

Here are some pics




































































BOB


----------



## fivebk

I tried to get the pics to come out side by side but it didn't work and I don't know how to change it. SORRY

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

wow...wonderful...come a long way..great job.....soon you will be eating outside, sipping some wine, right in the rows themselves.....wont be long til thats your new home...i eat breakfast and lunch at mine every day...


----------



## ibglowin

So my only question is with all that land, why only 4 little rows of grapes!

They look great Bob!


----------



## Waldo

Awesome buddy !!!!


----------



## grapeman

They are looking great! You sure keep the grounds well manicured. The corn looks super this year also. You keep the ground under the vines spotless and even have square ends and cut edges in the grass!!!! 


You should be rewarded next year with a good crop of grapes. 


The pictures are coming out side by side on my screen.


----------



## fivebk

Thanks everyone!!!

Mike, You would be surprised how much work is involved in keeping those 4 little rows looking like they do.
I have a couple of reasons for having such a small vineyard. First - I have a very bad back, steel rods and 4 vertabre fused. Second - I have had people tell me that you can't grow good quality grapes on flat land little less Missouri river bottom ground. Me being Me I had to put in some vines and see if I could prove them wrong. This is also the SHOW ME STATE so we most often don't believe anything unless we see it with our own two eyes.

2 1/2 acres of the corn ground belongs to me, so there is plenty of room for expansion at a later date ( if I would happen to go totally crazy )!!!!!!

BOB


----------



## fivebk

My vines have now run the whole length of my trellis. Some of the suckers have reached the ground and I have had to cut them back. The vines have not decided to slow down any. Every time I walk through the vines I find clusters of grapes trying to grow. I am so ready to see what they will do next year.


----------



## fivebk

Here are some pics

















































BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Those are some nice healthy vines Bob!

Fruit next year for sure!


----------



## grapeman

Great looking vineyard Bob, and I sincerely mean that!






I am glad you decided to go with GDC to possibly tame the vigor on your site. Those are as big as three year old vines in most commercial vineyards. Keep up the great work. Oh and if you want to practice picking- I hear Al is about all set to bein in NH. I am a bit behind, so go help Al, then you can come help me and then maybe stop in the Finger Lakes and help somebody there finish up their season!


----------



## AlFulchino

ditto all that Rich said...and i MEAN that too! and i will add in a WOW


----------



## fivebk

I know it's early to be thinking about pruning grapes, but I have some questions about the upcoming pruning of my vineyard. 

Everything I have is on the Geneva double curtain trellis system. this will be the third year for most of my vines. and the fourth year for three Edelweis vines. I did not let anything bear grapes last year.

How many feet of cordon do I allow each vine to have?
When I prune this spring do I prune everything back to just the cordon?
My vines grew very well last year. will I be able to let them produce a full crop or will I have to drop fruit and only produce a smaller crop ( 1/2,2/3, 3/4 etc. )

I know that there are alot of variables when growing grapes, but on average what amount of juice per vine can a person expect to get. The reason for asking this is so I make sure that I have more than enough carboys/ fermenters and supplies ready by harvest time ( I don't care for surprizes ).

I guess that's enough questions for now 

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um9p1eiGiwI[/ame]

is a great series

do not prune too close to the vine because they can dry out in the prune area...i always leave 1/2-1 inch...this is contrary to anything you do in ornamental pruning

each vine should meet the next vine halfway

its not too early to be thinking about it..i walk thru the vineyard every so often thru the winter to get a grasp of what i will be looking at when i do start...in case something shows itself out of the ordinary...

as far as dropping fruit.....if its a nourishing and adequate moisture year then i would let them go...that is opinion on my part...i would easily do this if the vine has shown itself to be vigorous..if it has not ( as some whites can be...then i would consider one cluster per shoot as a limit in this fourth year

as far as juice...it could be anywhere from 12-18 pounds per gallon and anywhere from 15-30 pounds per vine depending on vigor and number of clusters

invest in tanks/carboys that meet your best guesstimate and then plan ahead for a local supplier of food grade barrels that can be had for free or 20-30 bucks each so that you have an escape/relief valve without blowing the budget

this past yr my harvest exceeded estimate....i bought 8 fifty gallon food barrels for the over flow and later was able to rationally purchase more flex tanks based on what i could see in terms of gallonage in front of my eyes


----------



## fivebk

Thanks for the info and link Al. With me using the trellis system i'm using would it be correct to state that I want my spurs pointing downward or can some point upwards and then train them downwards.

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

you would PREFER to have them all point in the direction that you want...but an achievement of 100% perfection is impossible as they often have a mind of their own...what you can often do however is give them a good two fisted grip and bend them before they lignify....guide or training wires also help...forget perfection  that can only happen at a certain Chateau in Los Almos New Mexico  

( just kidding Mike)

plus each year even the perfect spur may throw a bud on the new growth that leads to a bad direction the next season....correction and adjustment will never end...you do the best you can and work w what you have been presented...look for buds that give you what you want...you will be fine

i use a scott henry system on everything...but there are some vines that are better trailers so while they work great on the lower wire they are horrible to train on the upper fruiting zone which would be similar in scope to vsp trained......others that work great in terms of loving to be trained upright in a vsp give me issues w the lower zone which need to point out and down.....sometimes you might get a lower shoot pointing up and there is room so i just let it go up rather than fight city hall

do what you have time for...do what works best for the vine and for you to produce the best cluster(s) on each shoot


----------



## ibglowin

I will probably have about as much luck training my vines as I have had to date trying to train my wife!


----------



## Randoneur

Al,
Just wondering how many buds you leave on young vines vs. fully mature vines? 
I start with 20 on 3rd year vines and work up to 40 (Vinifera vines). Let's not get into pruning weight


----------



## grapeman

I know it's early to be thinking about pruning grapes, but I have some questions about the upcoming pruning of my vineyard. 

Everything I have is on the Geneva double curtain trellis system. this will be the third year for most of my vines. and the fourth year for three Edelweis vines. I did not let anything bear grapes last year. 

How many feet of cordon do I allow each vine to have? 
If I recall corectly Bob you are training every other vine to the same side and the next- to the opposite side. In that case, let the cordons grow 8 feet or whatever it takes to reach each other. Naturally this depends on the length of the current canes you have to prune. Cut them back to no smaller than pencil size.
When I prune this spring do I prune everything back to just the cordon? 
You can cut back to the cordon, or if you have well formed canes coming off and pointing downward, you can clip them back to spurs.
My vines grew very well last year. will I be able to let them produce a full crop or will I have to drop fruit and only produce a smaller crop ( 1/2,2/3, 3/4 etc. ) 
Vines that grew well should be cropped fairly heavily this year to rein in the vigor somewhat. Ones that struggled to make growth should be thinned accordingly.

I know that there are alot of variables when growing grapes, but on average what amount of juice per vine can a person expect to get. The reason for asking this is so I make sure that I have more than enough carboys/ fermenters and supplies ready by harvest time ( I don't care for surprizes ). 
Figure on at least a gallon per vine and you will be close. The slow vigor ones will yield less, while the vigorous ones will ripen out well over a gallon.

I guess that's enough questions for now 

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

Randoneur, 
<div ="msg" style=": left; overflow: auto;">


Al,
Just wondering how many buds you leave on young vines vs. fully mature vines? 
I start with 20 on 3rd year vines and work up to 40 (Vinifera vines). Let's not get into pruning weight 

____

most of my vines are set at eight feet apart ( although i do have a number at 5-6 ft)....so i essentially have four 4 ft cordons..i shoot for about 5-6 inches between spurs.....reality is often different..but never do i go under a fist size separation....on each spur i shoot for 2-3 fruiting buds...unless its a white that needed another season...on that one i will only leave 1-2 buds....but as a rule because of vigor and having to worry about a late frost, 2-3 make most sense
______

Rich.....i have witnessed what cutting back to teh cordon can do...you can dry out some buds and then lose that spur position.....i choose to leave 1/2 inch or so...let it all heal up and if its an issue i can cut it back closer to the cordon at a later safer date...


----------



## fivebk

I found a supplier, fairly close to home, for the chemicals I will need for spraying this season. The gentleman was even nice enough to go through a typical spray program with me. He said he would send directions and spray times with all chemicals ordered.

I bought a good set of pruners last night and plan on trying my hand at pruning as soon as the weather "COOPERATES" !!!!!!! 

I'm starting to get excited about this upcoming season and the vines aren't even close to bud break yet.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Good luck with the patience.................


It is always encouraging when the days get longer and the sun stronger. It has been melting a bit as the sun comes out, but probably not today. It was -5 this AM and going to get near -10 tonight. It sucks so bad that I thought I would leave town and go over to the Finger Lakes for a few days.


----------



## fivebk

You know a little R&R doesn't hurt anyone and God only knows you deserve some!!!!

BOB


----------



## grapeman

It is a combination R&amp;R /work thing.


Tomorrow I am at the 60th annual Finger Lakes Grape Growers Conference and will be making a presentation on growing cold hardy grapes in Northern NY. I will be here for two days for the conference, then stay overnight at my brother's place. I may even get to try a few wines







I just got over here. It took a bit over 5 hours.


----------



## fivebk

Well the weather cooperated!!!!! The temp here today was 62 degrees. I went out and pruned the vines and cleaned up all the canes.

Here are a couple of pics























BOB


----------



## grapeman

What a great looking job!


I thought it was cold and snowy there! What happened?


----------



## fivebk

Rich, The temp for today is only supposed to get into the low 30s, cloudy and cool all day. I guess the weather yesterday just wanted to give me a break and let me spend the day outdoors. I REALLY enjoyed spending the day outside, working with my vines and thinking of the days and work to come.

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Nicely done Bob!





We have been in the upper 50's this week as well. Really nice weather and so glad that we have left Feb behind us. Looking forward to Spring for sure!


----------



## fivebk

Here's another question for those of you with the knowledge. I am getting ready to order some netting for my vines. What width of netting should I purchase to cover my vines? 

My cordons are 6 ft. off the ground and there is a 4 ft. spread at the top between cordons. I can buy netting in 14 and 17 ft. widths.

BOB


----------



## Wade E

Very nice looking although I know nothing about growing grapes.


----------



## Waldo

Looking very good Bob


----------



## grapeman

Get the 17 foot stuff. You really need it to drape over and close without getting a hair net effect.


----------



## fivebk

Sounds Good !!!!

BOB


----------



## fivebk

I have a question. My vines are starting to show bud swell, no green yet but should pretty soon. The weather here is supposed to get nasty for a couple of days, lows down to 30will this hurt my vines????

BOB


----------



## grapeman

They will be fine. I have the same thing here. If the leaves haven't pushed yet, there is no problem.


----------



## fivebk

Thanks

BOB


----------



## fivebk

I think spring is finally here!!!


















BOB


----------



## Runningwolf

HEY Bud is that you? Nice pictures!


----------



## ibglowin

Is this year 3 for you Bob? Time for some fruit! Looking good.


----------



## fivebk

Yes mike, I will get my first crop this year ( hopefully)!!!! Yesterday fedex delivered my bird netting. I'm not taking anything for granted this year. 

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Good luck with them Bob. It is great to see them growing again isn't it? Have you gotten a lot of water lately?


----------



## fivebk

No, just normal spring rains

BOB


----------



## fivebk

Well, My vines are really starting to grow and OF COURSE I have a question already. There are multiple shoots with flower clusters on them already. Do I leave all these or do I have to thin to just one.



































BOB


----------



## Scott B

Looks Great!!!


----------



## Runningwolf

Beautiful vineyard!


----------



## grapeman

If I am seeing it correctly, it looks like you have both primary and secondary shoots there. Remember your vines are still young. If you go through now you can flick off the smaller secondary shoot with your thumb at this stage. That will reduce the stress on the vine and keep it healthier at this age. You could wait a whileand thin then, but it is much easier to do now.


They are looking great. Good job as usual Bob.


----------



## fivebk

Good morning to all!!!

I have been making a list of things needed to have on hand before harvest this year. My biggest concern is whether I will need a crusher or crusher/destemmer.With just 30 vines, lets say an average year, how many pounds of grapes per vine can I expect? I should only have 8 vines come ready to harvest at a time. I understand that it would be alot easier to just purchase a crusher/destemmer. My question is would it be a smart investment with me only having 30 vines?

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

30 vines is 30 gallons of wine. That comes out to about 500lbs of grapes approx. I can tell you thats way to much to do by hand! If you have an option to rent a good crusher/destemmer that will be the cheapest up front. Ultimately it depends on you. Is it worth the expense to have it on hand whenever you need it or are you OK with renting one for a day (if possible) I have to drive 200 miles RT to rent a good hand crusher/destemmer so I am thinking I will purchase one down the road at some point. Problem is this weekend is a great opportunity since everything at FVW is 18% off!


----------



## Rocky

Bob, 


Just one thing; could you try to make the vineyard a little neater?


----------



## fivebk

What can I say, I'm a slacker





BOB


----------



## grapeman

You will need a press, but the crusher/destemmer is up to you and just how much work you are willing to do by hand.


----------



## fivebk

Morning everyone,

I have been keeping up on others reports of wet weather in their area and have one to report of my own. I live in NW Missouri approximately 3/4 of a mile from the Missouri river. Record snows and rains have developed a problem. The dams way up north have been holding back runoff to the point that now the are going to release record amounts of water down the river. They have never had to release this much water ever. They are going to release 110,000 cubic feet per second and want to maintain that level through December. This could mean disaster to the whole Missouri river valley. All towns are planning emergency evacuation plans. If you can a few prayers for all of us in it's path would be greatly appreciated.

BOB


----------



## Rocky

Bob, I have been watching the devastation for the past few weeks and it is tremendous. I am always impressed with the power of nature but I am more impressed with the independence and toughness of the people in that area. I hope that you and your neighbors are spared further destruction. Best of luck to you.


----------



## grapeman

Best of luck to you Bob. Hopefully you are far enough to the river to avoid major flooding.


----------



## ibglowin

Will definitely be sending some your way Bob!


----------



## rrawhide

our prayers are with you, Bob






rrawhide


----------



## Runningwolf

Bob, best of luck to you. Many prayers heading your way!


----------



## fivebk

An update; The emergency disaster board called this evening and told us to start evacuation process. They said we could have flood water hit our area within the next 3 days. I'll keep everyone informed as much as I can. Thanks for the support.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Unbelievable. All the best to you Bob. Stay safe.


----------



## Flem

That is absolutely terrible. Our thoughts and prayers go out to all of you.


----------



## Rocky

Bob, 


This is devastating news. Hang in there and we all wish you the best.


----------



## Scott B

You are in our prayers.


----------



## OilnH2O

We're all still thinking of you --


----------



## ibglowin

Hope all is well Bob. 

It just seems so crazy that in this day and age we can't control flooding any better on the big rivers. If we can build a pipeline for oil across Alaska why can't we build a pipeline from the Mississippi or the Missouri river out west and fill up these empty reservoirs in NM, AZ, UT. It would help the farmers as well as control the massive flooding we have experienced this Spring and SAVE precious water for farm use, recreational use instead of dumping it into the Gulf of Mexico......


----------



## fivebk

Things are crazy here!! I have moved everything except our bed, the TV, a few misc things and a lamp. We are going to stay here untill they call reporting a levy failure. They say it's not if but when it will fail. Culligan just came and pulled their softner systems and the propane company will soon be out to get our propane tank. The biggest problem with all of this is that they will be maintaining the high water levels till at least Dec 1st.

Well I better get back to packing ( I'm tired of it already)


----------



## Flem

Hang in there, brother. You're in our prayers.


----------



## Runningwolf

Sorry to hear that, we're thinking of you


----------



## Rocky

I wish there was something I could do for you Bob. I am truly sorry for your situation. You are always in our thoughts.


----------



## Waldo

Wish I was there to help you out buddy but be assured we will be in prayer for all of you


----------



## rrawhide

wow - what's your status now Bob - any good news?


Still praying for ya'll.


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

I sure hope you are doing OK there Bob. The Weather Channel is even beginning to talk about this flooding. Stay safe and get out of there! I hope your house, barn and vines all weather it alright, but we are all more concerned with you and your family being safe! Continued best wishes.


----------



## fivebk

Well, last saturday we had to proceed with a mandatory evacuation. There was a breach on the missouri river levy just a short 3/4 mile west of my house. I have a great admiration for the local farmers in this area. The corp of engineers came in and tried to patch the levy, but deemed it to unsafe and walked away. Local farmers jumped in and patched it up and have done so two more times so far. They are holding the waters back while our town races to build a levy that may help protect it's people. The farmers know that it is just a matter of time before they will not be successful, but every minute/day helps. SO, so far no water ,but it's just a matter of time.

We have moved into my in-laws 5th wheel camper and will probably be here throughout the summer and fall. My wife's boss let us park in his yard and is supplying us with electricity and water at no charge. We just went and bought a wifi for our laptop to get us back online. I want to thank everyone for their support.

BOB


----------



## fivebk

If you go on youtube and enter Oahe dam or gavins point dam you can see the release of water from these dams

BOB


----------



## Scott B

Glad you are safe. Hang in there!


----------



## ibglowin

Bob,

Thanks for taking the time to check in and let us all know you guys are still above water and on some higher ground at the moment. Hard to believe this will last through the Summer, I wish they could send some of that out our way to help with the wildfire in AZ.....

Know that you and your family are still very much in our thoughts. Stay safe!


----------



## fivebk

Gavins point dam is now releasing more than a million gallons of water a second and plan on doing that till Dec 1st

BOB


----------



## Runningwolf

Bob that is amazing. What a shame they can't devert it. Stay safe and keep us posted.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12HqoCXf7HE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12HqoCXf7HE[/ame]


----------



## ibglowin

fivebk said:


> Gavins point dam is now releasing more than a million gallons of water a second and plan on doing that till Dec 1st
> 
> BOB




AZ/NM will take all you got my good friend.........


----------



## grapeman

Dam, that's a lot of water. Hang in there Bob. We are all rooting for you. At least you get to go camping this summer - hey you gotta look at the positive!


----------



## dragonmaster42

And you won't have to water your grapes - okay maybe a little to positive there. Hang in there Bob. The important thing is you and your family are safe. Remember - things can always be fixed and replaced, but not people and family.


----------



## lieu

Remember - things can always be fixed and replaced, but not people and family. 
Thats a fact!!! I've seen quite a bit of "bad stuff" in my profession and know this to be completely true. With your family and friends safe you can rest assured that things will work out. 
Stay safe,keep your chin up and know that you have alot of people thinking about you. Bruce


----------



## fivebk

Thanks for all the support!!!

I know this is a winemaking forum and not a chat room, but if it's ok with everyone I would like to continue to report on this situation. My winemaking has come to a complete halt and probably will for quite some time. Rest assured I'm not going anywhere and will continue to add my two cents worth whenever I can.

My wine has all been moved to my brother-in-laws. 44 cases in all and 25 gallons still in carboys that probably won't get bottled untill this is over. At least I have a pretty good stockpile of wine!!

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Seems like a pretty good excuse to break out a few bottles of wine! 

Hang in there Bob!


----------



## ibglowin

Yikes,

Just saw this hope you are still OK Bob!

Missouri River levee breaks near Iowa-Missouri border, officials say


----------



## fivebk

Mike, the levy that they are talking about is 3/4 of a mile from my house. I spent the day sitting at a lookout on the bluff in hamburg watching the water fill the farm ground south of my house. The water is now less than a 1/4 mile from the house. My land is some of the highest on the bottom, but it will only be a matter of time before the water takes it..... I got anything of any importance moved out way ahead of time and Barb and I are safe and sound.

BOB


----------



## fivebk

If you want to look at a video with the levee breaking, you can go to Atchison County 911/Emergency Management on facebook. They have the video on their facebook. Here is the link if it works: 




[ame="http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1580026399513"]http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1580026399513[/ame]


----------



## Waldo

Link worked with "cut and paste" Bob 
Makes my spoiled fruit so insignificant
Keeping you in our thoughts and prayers buddy


----------



## grapeman

I made the link active for you. May the water part at your farm like the Red Sea. Stay as dry as you can Bob.


----------



## Runningwolf

Good Luck Bob. I can't even imagine sitting there and watching your property coming closer and closer to disaster. I would be doing the same thing. You continue to be in our thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Scott B

Hang in there!


----------



## fivebk

Here is a picture my daughter took of our place yesterday</font>







Below is a timeline of how fast the water is raising.</font>


----------



## Randoneur

Sorry you are going through this. I hope it doesn't last as long a predicted.


----------



## ibglowin

Nothing like waiting and watching disaster approaching....





Heres hoping for the best and knowing your prepared (as best you can be) for the worst......

Hang in there.

Looks like you got the "resizing" problem figured out anyway!


----------



## rrawhide

Hang in there buddy our prayers are with you and yours.


rick
http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824YYUS


----------



## Scott

Sounds like today is the day to see if the levy will hold. 


Levy holding prayers!!


----------



## ibglowin

OK everybody, lets do this!


----------



## Runningwolf

That is way to cute


----------



## fivebk

That photo is exactly what we needed. My place is still dry tonight, but flood water is within 4-6 feet of the house and maybe 6 inches elevation in that amount of space. The highest release has not got here yet. It should be here fri or sat.

BOB


----------



## Flem

Good Luck and stay safe.


----------



## ibglowin

Here is to still praying that the vines get a nice soaking and the house stays high and dry. 

Did you mess with any sand bags?


----------



## fivebk

Sand bags would not do any good with the situation we are faced with. If they maintain high flow rates ( as predicted) The water would take over the house anyway. As of 7AM this morning I officially have water in the house. No way to get an exact amount , but if I had to guess probably 2 feet right now and the water is still coming up. Several of my close neighbors are in a lot worse shape than I am right now.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Wow, when it really happens to you it starts to sink in the extent of the power of Mother nature. As I drove on our local interstate going by some of the lowlying areas of Lake Champlain coming back from a growers meeting, I was looking at the Lake on the other side of the Interstate- the west side, normally the lake is only on the east side. The covered area is normally just a swampy creek area, but was reclaimed lakebed this spring. My sister was out of her house for two months before they could even go in to see what might be salvaged.


Good luck to you. I don't know what else to say!


----------



## OilnH2O

Well, we know you are figuratively "up to your..." whatever, in the power of Mother Nature, and too busy to post anything, but still thinking of you nonetheless and hoping for a speedy return to "normal."

Dave


----------



## fivebk

Thanks Dave,

I now have 4-5 feet of water inside the house. The Corp is releasing what they said would be their max flow. Then again last night on the news they stated that the flow rate may still have to go up. OHH!!!! WELL !!! My place is already ruined so more water can't really hurt anything. We are going to start looking for a new place to live. Even though my place was homesteaded more than 120 years ago and has been in the family the whole time, we will not go back and try to rebuild just to have this possibly happen again.

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

How about rebuilding on stilts? This will surely kill your vines.:-(


----------



## Rocky

Bob, I am truly sorry for your tragic loss. I would not know where to start to rebuild. Did you lose furnishings with the home? Hopefully you had the time to get irreplacables out of the house.


----------



## grapeman

I feel your extreme pain Bob and wish you all the best in getting your life together again when this tragedy is over with. Everything you had was so beautiful.


----------



## Scott

This morningon the news is even more water being released up north and a mandatory evacuation for Bob's area


----------



## fivebk

AND...... It probably won't be the last increase they make. If they don't have a decent drop in water levels behind the dams they will continue to increase the water flow untill they do. As of yesterday 2 places on the missouri levee system within 15 miles of my place have become unstable and have water within 12 inches of the top of the levee. These spots won't really impact my area to any great extent, I just hate to see more and more people go through what we've been through already

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

The Corps of Engineers: The gift that just keeps giving...........


----------



## Rocky

More like, "Government, the gift that keeps on taking."


----------



## fivebk

Yesterday my daughter, son-in-law and I hitched a plane ride and got a close up look at my place. I think the grapes are a little over watered. What do you think? </font>


----------



## ibglowin

Looks like you won't have to water them for awhile......


----------



## grapeman

They aren't going down without a struggle and are holding their heads high. You try to do the same. We all feel your pain........


----------



## Randoneur

Such a long time for this to go on! Hope things get better soon.


----------



## Runningwolf

Hi Bob, you and your family are in my thoughts everyday. I was going to say I hope all is well but instead I'll say I hope you and your families health is well. Have you been back to see the damage? I am assuming the waters have gone down. Hope to see an update soon.


----------



## fivebk

Here's an update, 

The waters of the mighty Mo have for the most part stabilized. There have been elevation changes in the river, but with water spread out over massive areas of farmground the changes at our new levee around town are minimal. The new levee that was built to protect the town is performing well ( the town is still completely dry) !!!! My house is still standing ( even though it has had water in it since June 15th). At the high point I had 4-5 ft. of water in my house. Right now it's probably only 1-2 ft. deep. The corp has talked about shutting the flow rate down by 10.000 cubic ft. per second. My problem with this is do they want to get rid of the water or do they want it to stay on the farmground as long as they can keep it there. Word is that they want the missouri to return to it's natural state of free flow ( without levees in our area)

We have been looking for a new place to live, but when you live in a small town with sooo many people displaced places to rent or buy are hard to come by!!! We heard through the grapevine of a place that might be available to rent ( cross your fingers ) We should know sometime today.

That's all for now everyone keep the wine flowing

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Wow, amazing, incredible, and just so sad all in the same breath. Know that we are thinking about you and your family. Keep your chin up and keep us posted on how your doing.

Gotta love the COE...........


----------



## grapeman

Good luck in the house or appartment hunting. The camper will begin to get kind of cold in a few months.


They very well could try to eliminate the levees altogether, afterall they did pay farmers to bulldoze the ditches that the government paid to put in. They originally drained the land, now they pay to revert it back to wetlands.


----------



## fivebk

This photo was taken by one of my neighbors on july 17th. Look at my grapevines with water still on them after 32 consecutive days








BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Those vines look pretty good from this distance. House is standing strong still!


----------



## fivebk

Another update,

My wife heard from a co-worker that his grandson was moving out of a rental property in hamburg due to a long drive back and forth to work. We checked on it and were able to rent it for a few months while we wait to see what fema will do ( IF ANYTHING!!! )and then there is a possibility we may be able to purchase the place. It's a change from living on a small acreage to living in town, but barb only has 5 blocks to travel to get to work. We have slowly started to move things in and actually spent last night in the house ( NOT A CAMPER )!!!!

More later

BOB


----------



## Runningwolf

Good news to hear on your birthday, Bob. What happens now to the old house and property, or is that just a wait and see thing?


----------



## lieu

Good to hear Bob. Glad to see that you are looking at the positive (meaning the "only 5 block travel for Barb ). I am quite sure that if you keep that attitude going that it can only help you out in this situation that you and your family are in. Happy B-day and keep your chin up


----------



## fivebk

Dan,

The house will probably be torched when it comes clean up time and the acreage will be put on the market and sold. None of my neighbors are returning to their homes. There will be no one left on the riverbottom that I have called home for 42 years. I guess maybe the COE are getting what they wanted. Most of us that lived out there now have no other choice but to move on. One thing positive about moving into a new place is once everything is moved and in place there's no reason I can't start making wine again!!!!! Woo Hoo...... I know..... I'm terrible aren't I











BOB


----------



## Runningwolf

Thats the attitude!!! Another good thing was the fact you had time to clean out your house and safely remove you family. How many people were caught off guard? 
Question, living on the river bottom did that make you a bottom feeder? LMAO Bob you're in our thoughts everyday and we wish you and your family nothing but the best.


----------



## fivebk

Dan, I guess you could say that!!!

Thanks to all for your interest and concerns

BOB


----------



## paubin

Bob, 
I had followed your vinyard until last winter and always looked forward to a new post and pics. I was really buzy at work this past 6 months and haven't been on the forum much so I missed your flood.You are an inspiration to me and your loss has me devistated(I am sure you are too). The care and dedication you put into your vines amazed me. I've been looking for acreage here in the finger lakes region of NY for a while and plan on emulating your hard work. Good luck and I hope that you find another piece of land where you can start again if that is your wish. My prayers are with you and yours. God Bless !


Pete


----------



## robie

Bob,

If you do go ahead and buy in town, do you think you might buy a small plot outside of town, where you can grow some grapes? How about there in town, is there room for a few vines where you are living?


----------



## grapeman

Sorry I missed this a few days ago Bob. I'm glad you have found a house even if temporarily. I would be devastated myself if that had happened to me after a lifetime of hard work. It was more than a place to live, but a home for your family and friends. I wish you the best of luck and keep up your 'spirits' about the winemaking.


----------



## fivebk

Here's an update,

We are pretty much settled in to our new place. It's going to be awhile I think before we will truely be able to call it home. Alot of our life and memories still belong on the farm. The corp has started to decrease the flow out of the dams. One of my neighbors went out in a boat yesterday and got some photos. There is no longer water in the house it's kind of setting on it's own little island. They could only get within a 1/4 mile of the house. Believe it or not my vines are still green ( could even be fruit ripening on them). The road to the farm is still underwater. 
Pete, your last post really touched me. Everything that I did with the vines and grounds was a labor of love and filled me with pride when I showed it off. If the vines do survive I can't help but not try to transplant at least one of them.
Richard, there is a vacant lot right next to the house we now live in and if we decide to purchase this place we will definitly try to buy the lot.
Rich, Thanks for everything and you never know when one of these days a guy that goes by fivebk might accidently show up on your doorstep !!!

I truely want to thank everyone for their prayers and concerns.





BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Thanks for checkin' in Bob! 

Glad you are still hanging in there and have gotten settled in so to speak in the new place. I don't know how you let go of those vines. Mine are only in there 2nd leaf and I am already thinking to myself how could you ever move from this labor of love......

Stay safe and keep us posted on things when you can.


----------



## OilnH2O

Yes, thanks for the update. 

A week ago I was flying from St. Louis north-west across to Omaha (and back to Montana) and saw the Missouri which has I-29 flooded (and closed) which made the news, back then -- but I saw the numbers of farmsteads flooded, and still that way -- and they were hardly mentioned. The Mississippi north seemed normal, but then when I saw the Missouri I remembered you were south and still flooded as well. It made me realize the difference between the different parts of the river and how it affected those in Southern Missouri/Illinois. I don't know when it will subside, but will continue to keep you in our thoughts. Perhaps you will yet have a flood vintage! Thanks again. 

Dave


----------



## gaudet

Bob,

I haven't been around and happened to just check this out today. I am so glad that you guys are safe and have a place.I wish you guys luck in re-establishing your lives. My wife and I will add you to our prayers. 

I still haven't opened that bottle of cherry chocolate port. But when I do I will surely raise it to you.


----------



## grapeman

Hi Bob.
I haven't had much time this week to check in, but was glad to see you were still safe and moved into a spot that will give you shelter from the storms and winte. It has been so hectic of late as I market more and we had our Lake Champlain WInes Summer WIne Tour this weekend. Keep us updated and I will keep you in the prayers.


----------



## fivebk

Hi guys, I thought I would post a pic of the farm

Look at my vines on the right side of the pic. Water stood on them for 57 consecutive days. At one time it was 4-5ft deep.










BOB


----------



## grapeman

I can see the mudline on the grain bin and buildings. It does look 4-5 feet high. Just devastating. A lot of folks around here including a sister went through this also this year. What a year for the country and the world.


----------



## Runningwolf

WOW, I saw that mud line on the two buildings and thought it was a cool rock foundation. Unbelieavable.


----------



## ibglowin

Looks like the water is finally subsiding just like they said.........





Have you been out to check on the house, buildings and the vines?


----------



## fivebk

Mike, The roads between town and the farm are impassable. It will be awhile before we will be able to get a close up look .

BOB


----------



## AlFulchino

wow...glad i checked in today...we are with you in spirit Bob...wish it could be more!


----------



## fivebk

Thanks Al, glad to hear from you!!!

BOB


----------



## fivebk

Another update,

Sunday Barb, my youngest daughter (Brittney) and myself drove through about a 100 yards of water ( only 3inches deep) to get a look at our farm. the water at our place averaged about 5.5 feet deep and was inside the house at different levels for about 55 consecutive days. The house is just as we thought......beyond repair. 

All my grapevines are still alive except for the vignoles. Only found one small cluster but plenty of signs that at one time there were alot of grapes on them.

I will post some pics next week 

BOB


----------



## grapeman

It must seem sureal to you, until you actually see it first hand. I am so sorry for your loss of home and farm.


----------



## AlFulchino

unbelievable Bob.....i havenotread all the posts...hope you are covered by insurance!

the vines can stand 2-3 weeks of water for sure...first hand experience here....hardening off of the wood will be the issue for itto winter over...pulling for you!


----------



## ibglowin

Thanks for the update Bob. I know it must be incredibly hard to look at the damage.

Thoughts and prayers are still with you and your family.


----------



## rrawhide

Wow, Bob, sure different when we first looked at your pictures. Hard to imagine what damage water can do. Good luck on your decisions to come.


We are all hanging in there with you.


Take care and God Bless


rrawhide


----------



## fivebk

Here's some pics of the farm







































BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Wow.......





























Just a "small" mold issue........


----------



## rrawhide

Wow Wow Bob


What water can do is amazing. Good luck and keep looking up. Our prayers are with you and yours.


rrawhide


----------



## Bartman

Umm, where did the furniture go? Did it get washed out, or have you already removed it? 'Cause if it was washed out the doors, my jaw will drop even further...


----------



## grapeman

Simply devastating all the way around.


----------



## ibglowin

They knew the water was coming so they had time to get everything out before the COE opened the levy.


----------



## Runningwolf

I just don't know what to say this is so sad. I can't even imagine what you were thinking knowing it was coming with so many desicions to make.


----------



## Scott B

Sorry for your loss!


----------



## AlFulchino

something like this makes us realize how small we all are in the scheme of things


----------



## rrawhide

You sure got that right, Al


Have a good day all.


rrawhide


----------



## OilnH2O

As I've followed your thread, Bob, my heart goes out to you and your family in all this. It is one thing to have a 'disaster' and then deal with the outcome. It is entirely a different, and I can't help but think -- even worse -- thing, to know ahead of time that the Corps is going to flood you (because they are 'saving' towns elsewhere), knowing all the time (all those weeks and months!) as it happens, that damage is being done, but then not knowing the extent until it is all over. And only _then_ beginning to deal with the aftermath.

I sense your attitude is far more positive than most people. Please keep that positive mental attitude -- you're an inspiration to me, and I'm sure the rest of your friends who occasionally "check in" on your thread, only to realize you continue to _live_ this tragedy every day. 

Dave


----------



## fivebk

Went for a ride the other day out to the farm. Looked over all the damage and of course the grapevines. Seems 2 of the 4 rows I have did not survive the flooding last year. I called a neighbor that farms the ground right next to my land and he has agreed to purchase the farm. There will be some cleanup on my part, but the good news is he is not going to start any cleanup untill late summer.

I asked him if he had any problem with me leaving the vines untill then to see if I could get one harvest off them. He told me that was fine ( after all 4 years worth of work has went into them so far without a harvest).

The 2 varieties that survived 5 1/2 ft. of water for 55 days were Frontenec Gris & St Croix. I have since pruned them and they were bleeding before I left that day.

BOB


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## ibglowin

I suppose thats a little bit of the old good news/bad news there Bob. Those are some pretty tough vines to have survived that much time submerged.

Wonder if you could dig some up that survived and transplant to the new place?


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## fivebk

I've got to find a place first

BOB


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## grapeman

Simply amazing they could survive that. I hope they give you a decent crop after all your hard work over the last few years.


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## fivebk

*Update on my vines*

Well, after all the flooding last year out of 4 rows of vines I only lost 1 row (vignoles) Edelwiess, Frontenac Gris, Brianna and St. Croix all survived.

Here are some pics


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## ibglowin

Fantastic Bob!

Are the grapes still yours or did you sell the property?


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## grapeman

Wow, those babies are good sized for already this year! Amazing!


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## winemaker_3352

Very nice indeed - I am so sorry you had to experience the flood last year...


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## TxBrew

I am originally from Iowa and it has such pristine agriculture land, why is it not a dominate AVA? The winters? Soil just not good for wine grapes?


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## ibglowin

Bob could tell you better than me but he isn't online as much as he used to be so I will try and quickly fill in the blanks. I believe the grapes and land are actually back in MO just across the MO river. The house, land and of course the vines spent all last Summer under many feet of water as the COE opened up the levee and flooded all the area for miles. Bob and his family were forced to vacate the house and land and found a new home just across the river in IA. There are some amazing (but sad) pictures of the land and house under water if you go back through some of the pages of this thread. Bob came over from the FVW Forum. They just don't come any nicer than him and we could sure use a few more like him these days.


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## fivebk

Mike, Thanks for all the nice comments. The ground is mine untill the grapes are harvested, then sadly I have to dig them up because I am in the process of selling the ground to a long time neighbor ( who is also a farmer ). By this time next year it will all be farm ground.

Here are some pics of what I've been up to lately


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## ibglowin

So sad to see Bob but fully understand that you don't ever want to go through that again. I hope you have great success at transplanting the vines or at least perhaps getting cuttings to try and root. Either way Rich is your man with advise on how to proceed if possible. I hope the harvest is a good one and that the wine produced is more sweet than bitter in the end.


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## winemaker_3352

I hate to see that - but like Mike said - one can understand not wanting to endure that again.

Good like with the grapes this year and keep us posted!!!


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## Runningwolf

Bob glad to see you posting again. Very sad to see the house go but glad to see you moving on after all those years there. Good luck on moving the grapes.


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## fivebk

*Veraison to harvest*

Good morning everyone,

I have a quick question that I know someone can answer for me.

My St. Croix grapes have started veraison. About 50% of the grapes have turned color.

Roughly how long do I have untill they should be ready to harvest???
When they get there what brix should I be shooting for???

My frontenac gris grapes have started to blush
Same question When should they be ripe and at what brix should they be harvested???

Thanks

BOB


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## ibglowin

Perhaps Rich will chime in here Bob. I know he is pretty busy these days. Do you have a refractometer? You will need one to check Brix levels.


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## grapeman

I don't know how I missed this yesterday Bob. It is really difficult to tell how long until they are ripe, especially this year. I suspect it will be a few weeks, but a lot depends on temps during that time. Keep checking them for sugar. St Croix will likely ripen around 20 brix or so. If you can check the pH of a bit of juice, that will tell you more. As it getsw ripe, the pH will rise quickly to 3.8 or so. St Croix also has a good indicator of ripeness in that it will get extremely juicey when ripe. The skin will be very tender and if you squish the grape a bit, it will turn to almost pure juice.


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## fivebk

Thanks guys, 

I know there are a lot of variables. I started to get a little concerned because I am leaving on a trip in less than two weeks and will be gone about 8 days. I sure would hate to get home and find them all gone to waste.

I put my netting on them this last weekend. Should have been watching them a little closer, because the birds had already started to work on them.

I do have both a refractometer and a ph meter and will watch them closely. 

The weather here has finally cooled down (back to normal anyway) we need rain bad. The grapes are going to be a little small I fear because of the lack of rain.

Any crop will make me feel good (being it will be my first and last off these vines)

BOB


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## fivebk

Well, I got home today from the trip I went on with the gospel group I'm in. We had a great time performing on the way to Colorado as well as performing at a park one evening in Estes Park, Co. The mountains were awesome as always, the house we rented was awesome, and the fellowship with friends was priceless.

Now for the "BAD NEWS" I went to the farm this afternoon to check on the grapes only to find that they had all went to waste. I guess 100-105 degree temps for the last I don't know how many days was enough to cause my grapes to ripen faster than anyone could have expected.

My grape growing experience has been less than stellar....... three years growing, training, pruning and learning, one year of flooding and this year a drought with excessive heat.

I have come to believe over the last few years that everything happens for a reason. I now know that I was to learn what that..... " labor of love "...... that every grape grower goes through..... was all about, but that I was not meant to raise any grapes of my own.

I now have a new found respect for every grape grower out there.

I will probably order some fresh grapes this fall and continue to learn all I can about winemaking......

BOB


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## ibglowin

Perhaps you were not meant to raise "those" grapes. Never give up. Never surrender! Start over. Learn from your past. 

Life is all about rebirth!

Glad you had a fantastic time in CO.


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## grapeman

Sorry the grapes were lost Bob, but if you had a great time then you truly won. Plus you had all the great experiences of growing the crop. Farming is all about the growing process and harvest is seldom assured. Last year we had a great crop growing, and then lost almost half of it to the storms right at harvest time.

A farmer gets up after being knocked down, dusts off the dirt and starts over. Maybe your calling is with the church group. Somebody else will always take the risk and grow the grapes if you can get enjoyment and self fulfillment out of the gospel group.


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## fivebk

Hi guys,

Last weekend my youngest daughter went to a wedding and at the reception she started talking to an old friend she had not seen for awhile. He told her that they had just purchased a place and there was a vineyard on the property. They had been trying to find someone to use the grapes before they all went to waste. Brittney told him that I made wine and would probably want some grapes......he gave her my number. I called the next day and arranged to go get some grapes. When I got there I found that he had 30 rows 300ft long divided into what I think are 3 different varieties. Two red and one white. I checked the brix and found one of the reds to be ready to harvest ( some grapes in this bunch were even starting to raisin). With no crusher/de-stemmer I crushed and de-stemmed enough that I now have 12 gallons of must that I added a yeast starter to last night.

With none of the posts marked how do I determine what varieties of grapes these are???

Can they be sent off and tested to find out what they are. The owners have a call into a guy that helped establish the vineyard. Hopefully he can remember what they are

I got fresh grapes after all...... I just don't know what I have..... LOL !!!!!

I tried to pay them some for the grapes, but they said they were just going to go to waste this year anyway so just use what you can. I plan to go back again !!!!

BOB


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## OilnH2O

Bob, my apologies for not checking your thread sooner. Seeing your house tore down tore at my gut. I can't imagine what it was like for you. Glad you're back into the game.

BUT... the news about the grapes you just came by is wonderful! And, you now you now know how "red" and "white" got its name! 

Here's my suggestion -- two labels -- one simply all RED and the other blank, or "white." Think of the ink you can save!

Best wishes,

Dave


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## grapeman

Check the numbers and make the best wine you can from them. Just call them ByChance Red and ByChance White. I'm thrilled you got some.


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## ibglowin

Fantastic news Bob!

Call it Heavens White and Heavens Red! 

Better find a press soon!

Very happy for you!


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## travolta1179

fivebk said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Last weekend my youngest daughter went to a wedding and at the reception she started talking to an old friend she had not seen for awhile. He told her that they had just purchased a place and there was a vineyard on the property. They had been trying to find someone to use the grapes before they all went to waste. Brittney told him that I made wine and would probably want some grapes......he gave her my number. I called the next day and arranged to go get some grapes. When I got there I found that he had 30 rows 300ft long divided into what I think are 3 different varieties. Two red and one white. I checked the brix and found one of the reds to be ready to harvest ( some grapes in this bunch were even starting to raisin). With no crusher/de-stemmer I crushed and de-stemmed enough that I now have 12 gallons of must that I added a yeast starter to last night.
> 
> With none of the posts marked how do I determine what varieties of grapes these are???
> 
> Can they be sent off and tested to find out what they are. The owners have a call into a guy that helped establish the vineyard. Hopefully he can remember what they are
> 
> I got fresh grapes after all...... I just don't know what I have..... LOL !!!!!
> 
> I tried to pay them some for the grapes, but they said they were just going to go to waste this year anyway so just use what you can. I plan to go back again !!!!
> 
> BOB



Hi,

I wanted to know what happens if you don't add yeast? My father never added yeast and his wine is good. Yet I wanted to make some good wine and not sure what route I should be taking to succeed. any tips? I don't want to add to many chemicals like bisulfide. For example my dad always crushed the grapes and never removed the stems. I want to improve the wine making. I appreciate your help.

Regards,

Fred


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## fivebk

You can let natural wild yeast ferment your wine, but it can be very unpredictable. Good one time not so good the next. If you use a wine yeast what that strain can do is very predictable. I myself would not try and make a wine without the addition of some sulfites AKA K-Meta. There are way too many things that can take over a wine and spoil it. I have been told that if you ferment a wine with too many stems it can become very bitter. 

As with anything your choices need to be yours and not what someone else tells you to do.

BOB


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## fivebk

Dave ( OilnH20 )

Great to hear from you again !!!!

BOB


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## travolta1179

Thank you Bob,

I'm just concerned for health reasons, where sulfates can be bad. Ok so adding yeast sounds like a good thing to do to control fermentation. I live in Montreal Quebec in Canada and we purchase grapes from California. Which means that the grapes have been harvested at least 7 days before and shipped to Montreal. Now is taking the refractive index at that point a wasted time?also is purchasing a bladder press a good investment? 

Thank you in advance,

Fred


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## fivebk

Fred,

You can use a refractometer and take a reading, but in the end you will be going by a hydrometer reading. a PH reading and a TA ( total acid ) reading. I would be more concerned after waiting 7 days to get them crushed tested and started quickly.

A bladder press would be a great investment if you can afford one, but it's not at all needed to have that good of press unless you plan on doing a whole lot of grapes in the future.

I pressed 12 gal of red must this morning and ended up with 10 gal of wine. My press is just a screw type ( not even a ratchet type ) and I think it worked fine.

BOB


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## fivebk

Update: I talked with the owner of the small vineyard that I got grapes from last fall. He told me that he wanted to try and work the vineyard this year,but had not a clue how to do so. We talked for awhile and I agreed to help him care for the vineyard (for free grapes this fall). The last 2 weeks I have been going over and pruning grapes whenever the weather was nice. counted the rows and the vines. There are approx. 1440 vines in this vineyard......WOW am I going to be busy or what!!!!!! 

BOB


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## ibglowin

Sounds like a good trade depending on how much work you have to do and how much you get back in return. Did you ever find out what variety these are?


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## grapeman

Yes you should be pretty busy this year with all the work in them. Good luck and how is the pruning coming. My pruning is going REALLY slow as I only have enough stamina for a row or two a day. I need to get the boys busy out there soon so we can get them going good.


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## fivebk

Good morning Mike,

 I talked with the vineyard owner again about finding the owners that started the vineyard and finding out what the three varieties of grapes are. He told me not to hold my breath on him finding them for he has had no luck so far. He would like to sell grapes this fall (pick your own type of thing) but I told him that may be hard to do if you can’t tell them what type of grapes he has.

I am pretty sure one variety is concord. If I had to guess about the other red I would say it is Frontenac and the white…… WHO KNOWS!!!

Rich, good to hear from you

 I am glad to say that pruning is done. It was a BEARCAT!!!! You see these vines have had no care the last 2 years. They were tangled, overgrown, broken and had sucker shoots everywhere. Cordons needed re-tied. Some needed re-started. Some I even had trouble figuring out what was the cordon and what wasn’t. Wires still need to be tightened, some repaired . Out of 28 rows (48 vines per row) the owner pruned 5 and I did the rest. My back, arms, legs and hands are SHOT. I still don’t know how you take care of all those vines by yourself. 

Rich, my wife and I have had you and your family in our prayers everyday. Stay strong and keep a positive attitude……..God will take care of all the rest!!!!

BOB


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## grapeman

Sounds like a lot of work for sure Bob. Glad you got it done. Be sure you lay claim to enough grapes to make all the hard work worth your effort.


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