# Newbie makes big mistake!



## Kozzie (Feb 13, 2018)

Hi - I[m hoping you can help. On Sunday, I was starting a liebfraumilch kit. Right off the bat, I mistakenly added Potassium Sorbate instead of the required Bentonite. Once I realized the mistake, I went ahead and added the Bentonite and then the yeast packet.

My question is - do I have 6 gallons of stuff to throw down the drain, or is there anyway I can rescue it? I checked it today and its not doing anything.

Any advice or suggestions or would be greatly appreciated!


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## sour_grapes (Feb 13, 2018)

You may be able to salvage this by getting a robust yeast colony going by making a large "starter." Sorbate doesn't kill the yeast, it just stops them from budding (reproducing), so you may be able to get by this way.

http://eckraus.com/wine-making-yeast-starter/
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/YeastStarter.asp
http://winemakersacademy.com/importance-yeast-starters/


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## Kozzie (Feb 13, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> You may be able to salvage this by getting a robust yeast colony going by making a large "starter." Sorbate doesn't kill the yeast, it just stops them from budding (reproducing), so you may be able to get by this way.
> 
> http://eckraus.com/wine-making-yeast-starter/
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/YeastStarter.asp
> http://winemakersacademy.com/importance-yeast-starters/




Thanks Sour Grapes! I'll give it whirl and see what happens.


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## meadmaker1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Lol I started a batch last week of carmelized honey mead and added a gallon of cold press apple juice that was given to me as it had gone past is best if used buy date. Four days later with minnor activity and no change in sg, I dug the juice jug out of the trash to finnaly read the lable. And not organic as I had thought .
I hydrated a new pack of yeast started about a half gallon with honey and trippled nutreant added ahand full of chopped dates and raisins let it go about 10 hours till it was turbulatly fermenting and added it to the batch. Next morning I could hear the fizz in the bucket. 
So I expect you can save yours too


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## Kozzie (Feb 14, 2018)

meadmaker1 said:


> Lol I started a batch last week of carmelized honey mead and added a gallon of cold press apple juice that was given to me as it had gone past is best if used buy date. Four days later with minnor activity and no change in sg, I dug the juice jug out of the trash to finnaly read the lable. And not organic as I had thought .
> I hydrated a new pack of yeast started about a half gallon with honey and trippled nutreant added ahand full of chopped dates and raisins let it go about 10 hours till it was turbulatly fermenting and added it to the batch. Next morning I could hear the fizz in the bucket.
> So I expect you can save yours too




Thanks Keith! I'm going to make the yeast starter tonight. I'll post how it goes!


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## Kozzie (Feb 17, 2018)

Didn't get to making the yeast starter until today. Following ec kraus instructions, I've added 1 pint of wine must and a "healthy" 1/4 tsp of yeast nutrient, plus EC118 yeast to a quart jar. Stirred it and covered it. My next question meadmaker1 and Sour_grapes, is that enough yeast nutrient? I'm making 5 gallons. Thanks again!


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## sour_grapes (Feb 17, 2018)

Kozzie said:


> Didn't get to making the yeast starter until today. Following ec kraus instructions, I've added 1 pint of wine must and a "healthy" 1/4 tsp of yeast nutrient, plus EC118 yeast to a quart jar. Stirred it and covered it. My next question meadmaker1 and Sour_grapes, is that enough yeast nutrient? I'm making 5 gallons. Thanks again!



When you say "wine must," what do you mean exactly? Given your situation, it should NOT be the must from the kit, because that has sorbate in it. You should use another source. If it were mine, I would consider using a white grape juice that does not have sorbate, benzoate, or other preservative in it. Perhaps something like this:

*White Grape Juice Cocktail Frozen Concentrate http://www.welchs.com/products/juic...white-grape-juice-cocktail-frozen-concentrate*


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## Kozzie (Feb 17, 2018)

Yep - again a newbie mistake. Why didn't I think of that? I did use wine must. but that's ok. I can go get the white grape juice cocktail concentrate and a packet of yeast and do it again. Sheesh!, I drive myself nuts, sometimes, lol. Thank you.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 17, 2018)

Kozzie said:


> Sheesh!, I drive myself nuts, sometimes, lol. Thank you.



I drive myself nuts sometimes, too. But, to be fair, it is not a very far trip!


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## meadmaker1 (Feb 17, 2018)

I believe jack keller site has a good how and why to rehydrate and make a starter.
I ll work on posting links but im gona play my age card until I get I down. 
1/4 tsp is not too much and I use honey instead of must but sugar would work too. Shake the crap out of it and wait several hours
My misstake is nearly ready for secondary after one week so I know it works. I used d47 so 1118 should have no problem


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## Kozzie (Feb 17, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I drive myself nuts sometimes, too. But, to be fair, it is not a very far trip!


Yeah, I know what you mean, LOL


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## Kozzie (Feb 17, 2018)

meadmaker1 said:


> I believe jack keller site has a good how and why to rehydrate and make a starter.
> I ll work on posting links but im gona play my age card until I get I down.
> 1/4 tsp is not too much and I use honey instead of must but sugar would work too. Shake the crap out of it and wait several hours
> My misstake is nearly ready for secondary after one week so I know it works. I used d47 so 1118 should have no problem



Thanks!, I'm going to look for the white grape juice first, but if I can't find it, I'll go with your idea. Nice to know it will work.


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## Kozzie (Feb 19, 2018)

Went to 5 stores yesterday and can't find that frozen concentrate. So I'll go ahead and try the sugar method. In a quart jar, how much sugar should I put in? I know it was a pint of must(juice), but how much sugar should I add to a pint of water?
thanks for your help!


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## meadmaker1 (Feb 19, 2018)

Wouldn't use the must because of sorbate. Hydrate your yeast add it to water with ferm aid and "some" sugar a couple table spoons. How much would depend on volume it will be added to. You could match sg of must if you feel you need


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## Kozzie (Feb 19, 2018)

meadmaker1 said:


> Wouldn't use the must because of sorbate. Hydrate your yeast add it to water with ferm aid and "some" sugar a couple table spoons. How much would depend on volume it will be added to. You could match sg of must if you feel you need



Right on the must as Sour-Grapes pointed out. I will use a couple of tablespoons and see what happens. Thanks!


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## Trevor7 (Feb 26, 2018)

@Kozzie Does this have a happy fermentation going? Just curious.


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## Kozzie (Feb 27, 2018)

Trevor7 said:


> @Kozzie Does this have a happy fermentation going? Just curious.


Unfortunately no. I made the yeast starter by rehydrating the yeast and then adding the water (making a pint) and 2 tbls surgar. The next morning the yeast had foamed violently to the top of the quart jar and died back down. I pitched it and nothing. I hate to give up, so undaunted I went and bought a couple more yeast packets (EC-1118). This time I rehydrated the yeast and following some instructions from the links above, added 2 tsps sugar and waited 2 hours and added 2 tsps sugar. it was foaming nicely, so I pitched it and again nothing happened. 

I'm about to call it quits, but if anyone thinks I should try again I will. I've got 2 more yeast packets. But I don't know if I try it again, will having 2 or 3 yeast packets in the must affect the taste?

Thoughts welcome by all!


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## meadmaker1 (Feb 27, 2018)

Wow. That must have been a pile of sorbate. 
It shouldnt go bad any time soon. 
You might freeze it or at least some of it to use for back sweetening. 
Or try adding it to your starter little by little. 
Dilution might work also but if not you've wasted even more juice.


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## Kozzie (Mar 2, 2018)

meadmaker1 - yes, must have been. Although it seemed like a standard packet. I didn't keep it so I don't know amount of sorbate that was in it. I've not tossed it yet - so its good to know it won't go bad soon. I thought I'd try it again this weekend, keeping the starter fed for more than 4 hours. Maybe that wasn't enough time.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 2, 2018)

Kozzie said:


> meadmaker1 - yes, must have been. Although it seemed like a standard packet. I didn't keep it so I don't know amount of sorbate that was in it. I've not tossed it yet - so its good to know it won't go bad soon. I thought I'd try it again this weekend, keeping the starter fed for more than 4 hours. Maybe that wasn't enough time.



Yes, I think you need to generate a humongous starter. When you normally pitch yeast, the "lag phase" where the yeast colony is growing large enough to make a noticeable dent in the sugar takes about a day or more. You need to generate a colony of that order, since once you pitch it, that is all the yeast you will have. It will take some time to build up a colony, and it will also take a lot of juice or other source of sugar and nutrients. (That is why I suggested grape juice earlier.)


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## Kozzie (Mar 2, 2018)

sour_grapes - that makes perfect sense. I just can't find that juice anywhere near where I live. I went to 5 different grocery stores and none carry it. The ones I found had preservative in it (which I definitely don't need, lol). So I went the sugar water option. If I can find the juice concentrate I think that would be the way to go. I'm going to keep looking but right now I can't even find it on line. Wal-mart is no longer carrying it....

So if I go the sugar water route, I would follow http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/YeastStarter.asp instructions.

Just a thought, I might be able to find apple juice frozen concentrate. Do you think that would work or would it flavor the wine too much and make it apple tasting?


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## Kozzie (Mar 2, 2018)

sour_grapes, meadmaker - I should also add I did find Welch's white grape and peach frozen concentrate - what do you think of using that instead?


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## sour_grapes (Mar 2, 2018)

The Jack Keller directions are to build up a healthy (but small) colony to pitch, under the assumption that this colony will be able to go on and replicate itself. You are dealing with a different situation, so you need to build up a large enough colony to complete the entire fermentation without the ability to reproduce.

Personally, liebfraumilch with a little peach sounds okay to me. Sounds better than dumping it!


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## Kozzie (Mar 2, 2018)

sour-grapes - good point and I hate the idea of dumping it. I'll follow ecKraus and improvise the sugar requirements (last time the starter fermented wildly and most of the yeast died) and see what happens. Fingers crossed.

On a more positive note, last week I bottled wine from the grapes we grow and peach wine from our peach tree (pic attached). Both are still young but have good taste.


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## meadmaker1 (Mar 3, 2018)

I completely agree with sour grapes.
Ive never done a kit but I'm wondering if, just because it comes with the kit, it the correct amount of any included substance to add. 
K sorbate package says 1/4 tsp per gallon to stabilize 1/2 tsp per gallon if back sweetening. 
I have put together chemical packs for freinds and always add a little for spillage, waste, or gettong stuck in the package. 
I dont even trust recipes. Read and research find the common ground make a plan, ifan ingredient seems out of sort ask here before committing.


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## Kozzie (Mar 3, 2018)

good points meadmaker1. I wish I had kept the packet. It probably was more than 1 tsp. Anyway, I've begun another yeast starter and will keep you up to date.


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## Kozzie (Mar 11, 2018)

An Update. I tried 3 times this past week to make a yeast starter (using sugar water 2x and once with apple juice) and didn't have any luck - my timing was bad I think with determining when the yeast was at its peak. I finally ordered the EC Kraus Quick Starter. Today, I made a great yeast starter and before I added it, i checked the must with my hydrometer. When I started the must last month, the SG was 1.0998. Today its was .998! What a surprise! Somehow, between then and now, the yeast started working. I tasted it and it was really pleasant. Needless to say I didn't add the Quick Starter, and actually racked the must into the carboy for secondary fermentation.

An interesting note - the wine instructions said for primary fermentation to securely put the bucket lid on and plug the hole with an airlock. EC Kraus blog said never do that as the yeast needs the oxygen, which makes sense.

A really big thank you Sour_Grapes and MeadMaker for all your support and advice and telling me to not give up. This is going to be a very good wine and I shall toast both of you! I'm very grateful. Let's hope the rest of fermentation goes well, if not I'm going to be back with more questions!

Thanks again!


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## meadmaker1 (Mar 11, 2018)

This will probably be the finest wine you have ever tasted. 
And the fermentation prossess will never be repeatable


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## sour_grapes (Mar 11, 2018)

Yay! I love a happy ending. (Too bad I don't go to enough massage parlors.) I agree with everything that @meadmaker1 (Keith) said.


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## Kozzie (Mar 12, 2018)

Yep, one lesson I learned and will never repeat! @Meadmaker, lol


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## Kozzie (Mar 12, 2018)

meadmaker1 said:


> This will probably be the finest wine you have ever tasted.
> And the fermentation prossess will never be repeatable





sour_grapes said:


> Yay! I love a happy ending. (Too bad I don't go to enough massage parlors.) I agree with everything that @meadmaker1 (Keith) said.



Thank you guys so much. Paul, glad you convinced me to not throw it out,


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## Kozzie (Jul 9, 2018)

Sour_Grapes and Meadmaker 1 - I just wanted to share pics of the Liebraumilch that was bottled last month. It looks and tastes amazing. Thank you both. I'm so glad you talked me through it!


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## sour_grapes (Jul 10, 2018)

Kozzie said:


> Sour_Grapes and Meadmaker 1 - I just wanted to share pics of the Liebraumilch that was bottled last month. It looks and tastes amazing. Thank you both. I'm so glad you talked me through it!



Awesome. I am very happy about this! Prosit!


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