# Glass marbles, how to tell not leaded



## ejiang

When you buy marbles, how do u tell if it is not leaded?


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## TonyP

ejiang said:


> When you buy marbles, how do u tell if it is not leaded?



I tried to figure this out (probably spent 50 hours), came to the conclusion I couldn't be certain and decided not to use them. Even if you find food safe marbles, question whether they are alcohol safe. Some wine makers say clear marbles are OK, and that's certainly better than colored, but not they're not for me. If you need something like marbles, consider HDPE (high density polyethylene) balls. HDPE is widely used in food packaging and FDA approved food grade HDPE is readily available online for around 10 cents or so. If you decide to go this route and have difficulty finding a source, let me know. Also, if you want marbles, consider putting them in an alcohol safe plastic bag.

Tony P.


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## TonyP

One more quick point. Many of the balls are hollow and float. I think that's a good thing because they also take up some air space and reduce wine / air contact.

Tony P.


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## BobF

MoreWine has some. Each 3# is supposed to displace ~1L. I have NOT used these, I just happened to see them on their site one day.

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/9195//Glass_Marbles_For_Topping_Up_-_3_lbs


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## seth8530

Uhmm, guys, dont really want to break this to you but, wine glasses are actually made from leaded glass. This is done because leaded glass has a high index of refraction and creates all the pretty reflection and shimmering qualities of good quality wine glasses. Last time I checked Wine glasses were safe to drink from. 

Shocked me when I heard about it to

Source: Dr. Roberto Benson, UTK Material Science Engineering.


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## Deezil

True enough Seth (leaded crystal, anyways - dunno the difference between crystal and regular glass), but the time that the wine spends in the glass isnt near long enough for anything significant to leech out and hurt us.... A tad different when you consider leaded glass marbles in an aging carboy


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## ejiang

Deezil said:


> True enough Seth (leaded crystal, anyways - dunno the difference between crystal and regular glass), but the time that the wine spends in the glass isnt near long enough for anything significant to leech out and hurt us.... A tad different when you consider leaded glass marbles in an aging carboy



That's is exactly what I wanted to say


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## seth8530

If you look at the chart down below you can see exactly what our glass is made of. As you can see container glass has Aluminum in it. That does not sound extremely pleasant to me. However, we do not tend to worry about that now do we? Container glass is used in drink-ware. I think the secret is that thier has to be some sort of DRIVING FORCE to make the Al come out of solution. Their has to be something to make this chemical reaction happen. To me it seems logical to say the same is true for leaded glass. 

To make the argument of some kinds of glass being dangerous for wine making and others not dangerous you would have to believe that only the leaded glass has a leaching interaction with the wine while the other types of glass for some reason have no reaction at all. I will however draw the line at painted marbles.. Put something that is painted in everclear and I would not be surprised to see that the Everclear turns the colour of said paint.


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> True enough Seth (leaded crystal, anyways - dunno the difference between crystal and regular glass), but the time that the wine spends in the glass isnt near long enough for anything significant to leech out and hurt us.... A tad different when you consider leaded glass marbles in an aging carboy



My thinking is that their will not be any leaching at all. No matter how much time passes. Btw, fun fact.. Glass is not crystalline at all. Else you would not be able to see thru it. However, I am not sure on what is the naming distinction between crystalline and regular glass.


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## mmadmikes1

Glass marbles will be fine but the plastic ones you might want to reconsider. Leeching out of glass is not a problem. What is your carboy you are adding the marbles into made of???? Sometime people over think $hit


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## Deezil

Call me an over-thinker then, last i checked its not illegal or a sin.

Seth - There's plenty of documentation out there about the leaching of lead from leaded stemware into acidic solutions (wine). To be plain ol "crystal", it has to have 24%+ lead content; "light crystal" has to have 4%, while "heavy crystal" can have up to 32% lead. They've actually begun to, somehow, make lead-free crystal, although im not sure it has all the same properties.

Mike - If you remember older carboys, they were (and most glass at the time was) tinted green because of the chemical make-up - i cant remember what it was that made the green color, right now... They've since changed the chemical make up, to make them safer for acidic solutions (because carboys are used for more than wine & beer) - theres some information out there about that too, but it takes a little deeper digging..

But anyways, this was about the marbles - not the carboys or the stemware - and i'd have to agree on passing up the painted marbles. Being an overthinker, i'd put more thought in it personally, before using the clear ones - and i imagine i'd draw the same conclusion as TonyP.

But.. To each their own.


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## ejiang

mmadmikes1 said:


> Glass marbles will be fine but the plastic ones you might want to reconsider. Leeching out of glass is not a problem. What is your carboy you are adding the marbles into made of???? Sometime people over think $hit



I accumulated 6 of 23 liter carboys, 2 of 19 liter, and one 12 liter.

I am making 3 CC showcase, 2 paklab Onxy, 4 paklab vino


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## Bartman

I'm with Mike. Why should I assume glass marbles are anymore likely to have 'leachable' lead than the glass carboys?

Moreover, lead poisoning is a much greater risk to children than adults (while it can affect adults dramatically if it's acute poisoning, the amount that might be leached from glass marbles would be infinitesimal), and since my children with developing nervous systems and brains are not drinking my wine, I am even less concerned about the possibility.


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## mmadmikes1

Deezil said:


> Call me an over-thinker then, last i checked its not illegal or a sin.


 OVER THINKER>>>>O its a sin ...for sure. Everything seems to be. If the same chemical was used that made green coke bottles then I am screwed because I drank a lot out of those bottles.


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## Deezil

mmadmikes1 said:


> OVER THINKER>>>>O its a sin ...for sure. Everything seems to be. If the same chemical was used that made green coke bottles then I am screwed because I drank a lot out of those bottles.





Still dont remember what chemical is the cause of the green tint, but i know coke will eat rust off metal.. And i've drank my fair share as well


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## seth8530

Hey, Im going to talk to my Professor for material science and see what he says. Im sure he knows better than all of us. And it should be interesting to see what he has to say.


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> Call me an over-thinker then, last i checked its not illegal or a sin.
> 
> Seth - There's plenty of documentation out there about the leaching of lead from leaded stemware into acidic solutions (wine). To be plain ol "crystal", it has to have 24%+ lead content; "light crystal" has to have 4%, while "heavy crystal" can have up to 32% lead. They've actually begun to, somehow, make lead-free crystal, although im not sure it has all the same properties.
> 
> Mike - If you remember older carboys, they were (and most glass at the time was) tinted green because of the chemical make-up - i cant remember what it was that made the green color, right now... They've since changed the chemical make up, to make them safer for acidic solutions (because carboys are used for more than wine & beer) - theres some information out there about that too, but it takes a little deeper digging..
> 
> But anyways, this was about the marbles - not the carboys or the stemware - and i'd have to agree on passing up the painted marbles. Being an overthinker, i'd put more thought in it personally, before using the clear ones - and i imagine i'd draw the same conclusion as TonyP.
> 
> But.. To each their own.



Hey, good post. I did not see the documentation until this morning. According to the abstract the lead leaching at one min was 30% of the total lead found at 24 hours. The concentration at one mind was also 50% of the concentration found at 30 mins.

So at 1 min we had 107.4 nano grams per ml. And at 24 hours we had 467ng/ml Which is quite tiny.. To be dangerous according to get elavated levels of lead in the blood you need 25 micrograms per decileter.

Converting the units at 1 min we have .01074 mico grams per dl
at 24 hours we have .0467 micro grams per dl .

I am going to make a gross assumption. I am going to assume that the concentration increases linearly ie every day it sits we add .0467 micrograms per dl. Which is not accurate because the rate of absorption slows down over time in a large manner. 

*If we say that
.0467 micrograms_per_dl *Days_to_reach_elevated_level=Elavated_level.
we het .0467*D=25
D=535.33*
It would take 535.33 days for the concentration of lead to reach the amount in elevated blood. In reality it would take much longer for this to happen because the leaching rate decays over time. 

Also consider that drinking a solution that has the same concentration as elevated blood you would need to somehow drink enough of the leaded wine to make your blood reach the same concentration as is in your drink.

I believe the human body has 5 liters of blood in it. which is 50 deci liters.
If you say that
*Xmicrogram/50 Deciliters =25 microgram/deciliter 

We find that you would need to consume 1250 micrograms of lead.* 

So lets find out how much of our leaded wine we would need to drink to consume 1250 micrograms of lead.



.*0467 micrograms per/dl*deciliters=1250micrograms.
You would need to drink 26766.59 deci Liters of our leaded wine.

Ie almost 2,676,600 ml of leaded wine.. ie 3568.8 bottles one wine.* 
This calculation would be like taking leaded wine and somehow pulling all the lead out of it.

*So in conclusion, If the amount of lead leached per day stayed constant (it wont it will go down) it would take 535 days to reach a dangerous blood level concentration. Once you had a wine with a dangerous blood level concentration you would need to extract the lead from 3500 bottles of it and put that in your body.

However, A couple things could lower the needed amount of wine needed to poison one's self. Ie if the marbles leach much faster than the glassware due to either increased surface area or possibly increased lead concentration inside of the marbles.*

If we said for laughs that the marbles leached 50 times as well as the glass ware then you would only need 70 bottles of this wine.. Also, I do not know whether or not lead keeps accumulating in your body over time or how quickly your body can get rid of it..

Food for thought. I personally would choose unleaded marbles, but I like to play safe.


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## TonyP

Sorry, but I don't see it. When you can use HDPE, which is safer, cheaper, and better, why even consider marbles. There's a lot of information posted, but no one's shown statistics on what's in marbles from child-labor sweat shops in China. Besides lead, there's cadmium and who knows what else. Also, putting marbles in alcohol is different from other liquids. It only makes sense to me to consider marbles in alcohol safe plastic bags.

Tony P.


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## seth8530

TonyP said:


> Sorry, but I don't see it. When you can use HDPE, which is safer, cheaper, and better, why even consider marbles. There's a lot of information posted, but no one's shown statistics on what's in marbles from child-labor sweat shops in China. Besides lead, there's cadmium and who knows what else. Also, putting marbles in alcohol is different from other liquids. It only makes sense to me to consider marbles in alcohol safe plastic bags.
> 
> Tony P.



Plus HDPE isnt very likely to shatter your carboy if it drops too fast.


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## TonyP

seth8530 said:


> Plus HDPE isnt very likely to shatter your carboy if it drops too fast.


 Seth, good point. Also, the HDPE balls I'm referring to are hollow, but strong. When added they sit on top of the wine. My thinking is that this provides two advantages. First, the balls are between the wine and the air which should provide extra protection. Second, they can actually eliminate air space by sitting on top of the wine.
Tony P.


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## seth8530

TonyP said:


> Seth, good point. Also, the HDPE balls I'm referring to are hollow, but strong. When added they sit on top of the wine. My thinking is that this provides two advantages. First, the balls are between the wine and the air which should provide extra protection. Second, they can actually eliminate air space by sitting on top of the wine.
> Tony P.


Hmm, if they are just sitting on top of the wine then they are not really doing that great of a job to eliminate head space. because you are going to have a very large number of small unprotected areas... However, the concept of using heavy food grade plastic to displace volume seems like the way to go... We should research this.


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## TonyP

seth8530 said:


> Hmm, if they are just sitting on top of the wine then they are not really doing that great of a job to eliminate head space. because you are going to have a very large number of small unprotected areas... However, the concept of using heavy food grade plastic to displace volume seems like the way to go... We should research this.



Seth, I haven't had my coffee yet so I'll use that as an excuse if I'm wrong. However, it seems to me that filling an area with plastic balls has to reduce the amount of remaining area. Thus, adding a 1 cubic inch ball to a carboy eliminates 1 cubic inch of head space (until you have no remaining head space), whether the ball is at the top or the bottom and a 1 cubic inch marble or plastic ball eliminates the same area.

Tony P.


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## seth8530

That is mostly true except that *an object can only displace volume of the medium it is inside*. ( well for the most part)... Think of it this way. When you use marbles that sink to the bottom of the carboy you are displacing wine which then displaces air. When placing marbles into the wine you can add as many marbles as you could possibly need to make the wine push the all the air out and potentially even displace wine outside of the carboy.

Now if you are placing HDPE balls on the top of the wine you are displacing air. When you displace air the air is going to go outside of the carboy. Some could feasibly get pushed into the wine but that isn't very likely I don't think. However, the issue with the HDPE balls is that you can only add as many of them as will fit inside the head space. But you will not be able to displace the air that is in between all the of the HDPE balls.

Another Idea might be to use a fermentation bag filled up with stainless steel marbles or shot? It could be placed inside slowly and I dont think you need to worry about stainless steel leaching anything nasty into your wine.


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## bob1

round objects do not store well or pkg well as they leave a lot of air around them. Letting them float on the wine does not sound like a good fix for head space. You are still going to have air between them.


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## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> Another Idea might be to use a fermentation bag filled up with stainless steel marbles or shot? It could be placed inside slowly and I dont think you need to worry about stainless steel leaching anything nasty into your wine.



Vacuumpumpman took a thought like this, and use a straw + air to blow it up inside the carboy and displace volume.. When you pulled the straw out, it sealed.. Inserting the straw let the air out again when you needed to remove it.. I think his were 1L-size, but i dunno if they ever caught on well enough for him to get a bunch made

Maybe he'll chime in at some point


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## TonyP

bob1 said:


> round objects do not store well or pkg well as they leave a lot of air around them. Letting them float on the wine does not sound like a good fix for head space. You are still going to have air between them.



Sorry to be difficult here, but I suspect I'm not saying this properly. Any two objects of the same cubic area will displace exactly the same amount of space irrespective of whether we're displacing, solids liquids, or gasses. If you have a 10 ounce container with 5 ounces of liquid and add a one ounce solid, you only have 4 ounces left, irrespective of whether the object floats or sinks. In my example, the remaining 4 ounces is air. Then, adding another 4 ounces of solid and the container is full; again irrespective of whether the solid objects sink or float. Thus, you're always displacing air out the top until the container has no more air left.

In other words, Seth's point ("an object can only displace volume of the medium it is inside") is only correct in isolation. In both cases (floating or sinking balls), the end result is that air is displaced. The idea of adding marbles or plastic balls is to displace a certain amount of air and adding marbles or plastic balls of the same size displaces the same amount of air. Functionally, they are interchangeable.

Continuing my point with the quote, above, sinking balls and floating balls both displace air in the carboy until the liquid gets to the top. I would prefer to have plastic balls and a small amount of air instead of only air at the top of the carboy. If you're hung up with shape, the balls come in many sizes, so you can get pea size.

Finally, HDPE balls come in either solid or hollow. If you're hung up with floating versus not, solid HDPE balls are also superior to marbles which are not food safe. They are cheaper (roughly $5.00 for 100 balls) and safer.

Tony P.


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> Vacuumpumpman took a thought like this, and use a straw + air to blow it up inside the carboy and displace volume.. When you pulled the straw out, it sealed.. Inserting the straw let the air out again when you needed to remove it.. I think his were 1L-size, but i dunno if they ever caught on well enough for him to get a bunch made
> 
> Maybe he'll chime in at some point



+1 for this idea or sinking HDPE


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## seth8530

TonyP said:


> Sorry to be difficult here, but I suspect I'm not saying this properly. Any two objects of the same cubic area will displace exactly the same amount of space irrespective of whether we're displacing, solids liquids, or gasses. If you have a 10 ounce container with 5 ounces of liquid and add a one ounce solid, you only have 4 ounces left, irrespective of whether the object floats or sinks. In my example, the remaining 4 ounces is air. Then, adding another 4 ounces of solid and the container is full; again irrespective of whether the solid objects sink or float. Thus, you're always displacing air out the top until the container has no more air left.
> 
> In other words, Seth's point ("an object can only displace volume of the medium it is inside") is only correct in isolation. In both cases (floating or sinking balls), the end result is that air is displaced. The idea of adding marbles or plastic balls is to displace a certain amount of air and adding marbles or plastic balls of the same size displaces the same amount of air. Functionally, they are interchangeable.
> 
> Continuing my point with the quote, above, sinking balls and floating balls both displace air in the carboy until the liquid gets to the top. I would prefer to have plastic balls and a small amount of air instead of only air at the top of the carboy. If you're hung up with shape, the balls come in many sizes, so you can get pea size.
> 
> Finally, HDPE balls come in either solid or hollow. If you're hung up with floating versus not, solid HDPE balls are also superior to marbles which are not food safe. They are cheaper (roughly $5.00 for 100 balls) and safer.
> 
> Tony P.



What you said seems logical, However, if you place objects that are denser than water inside the wine you will be able to displace more volume than you would be able to displace with floating objects.. Their is more volume to displace inside the wine than their is on top of it. The trouble with your idea is that you are going to end up with a pretty decent area of air exposure because floating spheres are not able to perfectly displace all of the air volume. ie if you want to displace 1.6 cubic inches of air but your sphere is 1.62 cubic inches its not going to work. You are going to be stuck with that 1.6 cubic inches of air.


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## TonyP

Can anyone else please explain this better than me?

Seth, I'll think about your points and get back to you tomorrow. However, let me say I suspect I won't agree and we'll have to just agree to disagree. My perspective is not only logical, it's basic math and science. Density is of no consequence when you refer to displacement. Sorry, but that's how it is unless you change the universe. A bowling ball and a hollow ball of the same area displace the same amount. Density has an impact on weight per size but not area.

It's like this, Seth, if you fill a 6 gallon carboy with 6 gallons of concrete, 6 gallons of fluff, 6 gallons of wine, 6 gallons of air, or 6 gallons of HDPE, the carboy is full. The only difference is how much the carboy weighs. The area is not impacted: 6 gallons equals 6 gallons.

Also, you're missing the basic point. Is any 1 cubic inch object different from any other object of 1 cubic inch when it comes to displacement and the answer is no. If not, when you try a cubic area math problem, you'd have to ask what the object is made of. I guarantee in math you never asked in an area math problem what the object was made of.

Note that I'm not suggesting HDPE balls displace air completely and perfectly. Clearly, the fact that they are inflexible does not allow that.

Beyond that, the only important point of this entire topic is whether marbles are better than HDPE, and I've never heard anyone say, "yes".

Tony P.


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## mmadmikes1

I like girls that make there own wine :L)


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## seth8530

TonyP said:


> Can anyone else please explain this better than me?
> 
> Seth, I'll think about your points and get back to you tomorrow. However, let me say I suspect I won't agree and we'll have to just agree to disagree. My perspective is not only logical, it's basic math and science. Density is of no consequence when you refer to displacement. Sorry, but that's how it is unless you change the universe. A bowling ball and a hollow ball of the same area displace the same amount. Density has an impact on weight per size but not area.
> 
> It's like this, Seth, if you fill a 6 gallon carboy with 6 gallons of concrete, 6 gallons of fluff, 6 gallons of wine, 6 gallons of air, or 6 gallons of HDPE, the carboy is full. The only difference is how much the carboy weighs. The area is not impacted: 6 gallons equals 6 gallons.
> 
> Also, you're missing the basic point. Is any 1 cubic inch object different from any other object of 1 cubic inch when it comes to displacement and the answer is no. If not, when you try a cubic area math problem, you'd have to ask what the object is made of. I guarantee in math you never asked in an area math problem what the object was made of.
> 
> Note that I'm not suggesting HDPE balls displace air completely and perfectly. Clearly, the fact that they are inflexible does not allow that.
> 
> Beyond that, the only important point of this entire topic is whether marbles are better than HDPE, and I've never heard anyone say, "yes".
> 
> Tony P.



Sorry, I should of been clear about when I was talking about density. I meant to say that items that are denser than water would be better because they would sink to the bottom. That is the only reason why I mentioned the density. 

Also, I agree with you that we both know that HDPE do not completely displace the air and I agree they are better than having nothing to displace volume. However, why settle for better when we can have best?

I do not think that marbles are best... However, I believe that some sort of submerged volume displacement is what we are after due to the fact that it gives you infinite control over how much volume you wish to displace. 

Im hoping that we can work together as a community to come up with a solution that is is not good, or better.. But something that works perfectly.


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## BeerAlchemist

I don't see why unleaded marbles would be an issue, no one seems to have issues leaving wine in a glass carboy for a year or more. My understanding is that heavy metals either do not or very slowly leave the body so accumulation over time is a concern, so to that end I wouldn't use leaded glass for long periods. For instance, I put Scotch into my crystal decanter to serve, but never store it in there. 

Another thought would be getting some 316 SS bearings. My understanding is that sulfite can pit 304 over time, but the 316 is highly resistant so should be a good long term solution. Obviously for glass carboy users this probably would be a bad idea for fear of breakage, but for barrels and Better Bottle users SS should work fine. Thoughts?


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## seth8530

I feel like stainless steel ball bearings are the way to go. What I would do is put them inside of some sort of fermentation bag or pantyhose that I could slowly lower into the carboy. If you used them inside of a better bottle then that would work even better. 

I have not heard about any ill effects about stainless steel and alcohol.. But I could be wrong.,


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## TonyP

For me, I don't believe in using anything in making wine that's not food grade or food quality, particularly when they're available. I've looked a lot and have never found food grade marbles. Food quality HDPE balls are readily available. In case you're not familiar, many primary fermenters are made of HDPE. HDPE is also the most popular material for reusable water bottles. You can buy food quality 100 HDPE balls for around $5.00 and are available solid or hollow.

Why would you use anything else?

Tony P.


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## bob1

I say make it easy. Make a lot more than you need and rack down. Allows you to drink some on the way also.


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## saramc

I know MarbleKing in the US makes 100% lead free marbles, but one would need to check with them re: food grade. http://www.marblekingusa.com/Home_Page.php


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## Deezil

I was gonna call them but they closed a half-hour ago


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## TonyP

If you guys call, mention that the marbles will be in alcohol. It sometimes makes a difference.
Tony P.


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## seth8530

TonyP said:


> For me, I don't believe in using anything in making wine that's not food grade or food quality, particularly when they're available. I've looked a lot and have never found food grade marbles. Food quality HDPE balls are readily available. In case you're not familiar, many primary fermenters are made of HDPE. HDPE is also the most popular material for reusable water bottles. You can buy food quality 100 HDPE balls for around $5.00 and are available solid or hollow.
> 
> Why would you use anything else?
> 
> Tony P.



Im pretty sure stainless steel is food grade. Isnt that what most K kegs in bear making are made of as well as a lot of their top end brewing equipment and fermentation devices?


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## TonyP

seth8530 said:


> Im pretty sure stainless steel is food grade. Isnt that what most K kegs in bear making are made of as well as a lot of their top end brewing equipment and fermentation devices?



Seth, clearly stainless steel is used widely in the food industry from cookware, to utensils. And, in fact, wine is stored in stainless steel when not in barrels. However, there are different grades of stainless steel depending primarily on the ratio of chromium to nickel. There are also different types of stainless steel. So the answer is sometimes. For example, I have stainless steel appliances and wouldn't want to leave red red wine dripping on them for 6 months. Also, I don't know why, but I think it could leave a metallic taste.

Tony P.


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## seth8530

TonyP said:


> Seth, clearly stainless steel is used widely in the food industry from cookware, to utensils. And, in fact, wine is stored in stainless steel when not in barrels. However, there are different grades of stainless steel depending primarily on the ratio of chromium to nickel. There are also different types of stainless steel. So the answer is sometimes. For example, I have stainless steel appliances and wouldn't want to leave red red wine dripping on them for 6 months. Also, I don't know why, but I think it could leave a metallic taste.
> 
> Tony P.



So i guess the question we need to ask is whether or not different grades of stainless act differently in wine.I personally want to say it should not make a difference because I believe that most grades of stainless have enough in common to where they should act in a similar manner. With stainless characteristic possibly increasing with increased chromium if I am to trust my intuition.


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## saramc

saramc said:


> I know MarbleKing in the US makes 100% lead free marbles, but one would need to check with them re: food grade. http://www.marblekingusa.com/Home_Page.php


 
Just spoke to MarbleKingUSA, and they said their clear marbles are appropriate for use in the case of volume adjustment in winemaking. They knew exactly what I was talking about.
Prices are as follows and do not include shipping:
9/16” ~3000pc in 25# carton for $36
5/8” ~2100pc in 25# carton for $29.40
¾” ~1300pc in 25# carton for $39.00


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## BobF

Great info sara!


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## BeerAlchemist

TonyP said:


> Seth, clearly stainless steel is used widely in the food industry from cookware, to utensils. And, in fact, wine is stored in stainless steel when not in barrels. However, there are different grades of stainless steel depending primarily on the ratio of chromium to nickel. There are also different types of stainless steel. So the answer is sometimes. For example, I have stainless steel appliances and wouldn't want to leave red red wine dripping on them for 6 months. Also, I don't know why, but I think it could leave a metallic taste.
> 
> Tony P.



This is why I stipulated 316 SS, I was reading that 304 can slowly pit out over time due to level of sulfite wine makers use. However, 316 is highly resistant to sulfite.


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## seth8530

Ok so it seems sulfite resistant stainless and certain qualified marbles are the way to go if you ask me.


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## Deezil

Thanks for the discussion guys - gotta love finding (as a whole), quality answers


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## TonyP

Ok so it seems HDPE balls are the way for me. Here's an interesting link to a forum question on stainless steel and k-meta

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/accidental-k-meta-experiment-33946/


Tony


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## BeerAlchemist

TonyP said:


> Ok so it seems HDPE balls are the way for me. Here's an interesting link to a forum question on stainless steel and k-meta
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/accidental-k-meta-experiment-33946/
> 
> 
> Tony



Are you quoting yourself 

304 and 316 SS both have 18% chromium; however, professional wineries use the more expensive 316 stainless because of its higher resistance to pitting. Particularly they use 316 in areas exposed to the gas as that is much more corrosive, so things like lids will be 316. I believe the difference is the added Molybdenum. 

"A 20% concentration of sulphur dioxide dissolved in water at 20 degC can be expected to give a corrosion rate between 0.1 and 1.0 mm/year on 304 types, but a rate below 0.1mm/year on 316 types and hence is 'mildly' corrosive."
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=37

Now me not liking to add anything into a system doesn't need to be there, I'm not even happy with that .1mm a year as that means the metal is not passivating and the sulfides are continually etching a new surface and something is ultimately going into solution. I'm hesitant to use HDPE for two reasons, it can hold onto odors and they will get scratched up and become a nice way to innoculate my wine with undesirables, I would be much happier with a PET ball if it is available. So, for me, I would ideally use something like borosilicate glass marbles if I could find them, or some other food safe glass.


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## TonyP

Clearly it's not likely we'll drink enough wine for this to be an issue. But I'd still like to get to the best answer. Putting wine in a glass for 10 minutes strikes me as a lot different than putting marbles in carboy for a year. In spite of what's been said above, I can't believe there is such a thing as food grade marbles and I'm concerned about more than lead, for example cracking.

Alternatively, HDPE balls are available that must meet FDA food quality standards. PET and HDPE products are used now in wine making (for example: BetterBottles, primary buckets) and are prevalent many beverages. At 10 cents each or less, they cost less than marbles or SS balls.

Tony P.


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## BobF

I wonder if the same level of concern exists about the content of the *glass* carboys that the *glass* marbles are being added to.

Maybe sara will contact the carboy mfrs for us


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## TonyP

BeerAlchemist, hopefully no. All I meant to do was mention an ancillary forum topic I thought might be of interest. Consider posting on the other topic, as well, as you probably know more about SS than I do.
Tony P.


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## BeerAlchemist

Yeah, I'm not too worried about such things. Clear glass really gives me little to be worried about as long as its lead free. I just figure over time the glass would be less costly as they should last much longer. Or perhaps I will just use 5 gallon BB's and save enough in other containers to top off and never worry about this .


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## BeerAlchemist

TonyP said:


> BeerAlchemist, hopefully no. All I meant to do was mention an ancillary forum topic I thought might be of interest. Consider posting on the other topic, as well, as you probably know more about SS than I do.
> Tony P.



I was just teasing...I can't say I'm anywhere near an expert, just what I have learned over a decade of brewing is enough to get me in the right direction for pulling research...everything with wine is new so figuring out the whole SO2 thing was news to me too. Good idea to post that over there too, perhaps help someone doing a search down the road. Cheers.


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## Grasshopper

*Floaters v Sinkers*

Although I am a bit late in reading this thread, let me add my $0.02 on the subject of floating vs. sinking spheres for minimizing oxidation.

The oxygen in the air above the wine is not the problem per se (assuming it stays in the air which it doesn’t). It is the oxygen that is dissolved in the wine that oxides it. How quickly the oxygen in the air will dissolve depends on a) the concentration of oxygen in the air, and b) the surface area of the wine-air interface. How much oxygen is available to dissolve depends on how much air is available as does how quickly the oxygen concentration in the air will decrease as oxygen is dissolved in the liquid. The addition of floating or sinking spheres addresses both the surface area and the air quantity issues. Adding sufficient sinking spheres to force the liquid into the neck of the carboy significantly reduces surface area and the volume of air space. I don’t think floating spheres will reduce the surface area as much and I have doubts that the area reduction is as effective as the spheres are free to move or rotate (e.g. caused by vibration or release of CO2) to expose fresh surface. You might be able to get as many cc’s of floaters as sinkers into the carboy to give an equal reduction in air quantity but this won’t be true for all sphere diameters. Thus I think sinkers are the better choice and if you want to be really anal, you can use a can of inert gas to sweep the air out of the neck.


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## TonyP

Good points, Grassy. I agree with it all.
Tony P.


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## robie

Grasshopper said:


> you can use a can of inert gas to sweep the air out of the neck.



Inert gas works very well, but one can't depend on it unless it is reapplied at regular intervals.


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## Floandgary

seth8530 said:


> My thinking is that their will not be any leaching at all. No matter how much time passes. Btw, fun fact.. Glass is not crystalline at all. Else you would not be able to see thru it. However, I am not sure on what is the naming distinction between crystalline and regular glass.



Do believe that the "crystalline" designation refers to the common usage of leaded glass,,,,, Crystal-cutware, chandeliers, faux jewelry, etc.


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