# What will oak cubes do for my red wine?



## Gekko4321 (Nov 14, 2011)

I am making a RJ Spags EP Cab and a Cellar Craft Showcase Zin. I am bulk aging for 6 months. I have American medium toasted oak cubes I bought seperately. What will these do if I add to bulk age process? I consider the Cab somewhat 'flabby' right now, although it is young. Will oak firm it up and give it more complexity? The Zin had 2 packets of oak 'dust' that I added already in case there is a threat of over-oaking. I guess what I mainly want to know is what will adding oak for a period of time do to structure/flavor of wine? Thanks!


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## ibglowin (Nov 14, 2011)

Here you go:
http://www.finevinewines.com/oak2.htm


It is been my experience that as long as you use the supplied oak on a kit (and nothing more) you cannot over oak a kit no matter how long you leave it in.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 14, 2011)

Hi Mike. I have used the oak with the kits but I still feel something is lacking. Knowing if it is simply the youth of the wine versus needing oak is still something I need to figure out. Do you have a specific oak rec for the above mentioned wines, i.e., type of oak-American, French and what delivery method-cube, chip, dust?


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## ibglowin (Nov 14, 2011)

My first year making kit wines I pretty much followed directions to the letter. That said these kits you mention are some of the finest you can purchase. IMHO, they will take a minimum of 12-14 months to be drinkable, 14-18 months to get good and 18-24mo to become great. If your tasting a wine you have made at 3 months or even 6 months you have a LONG way to go to build the flavor profile.
I have several 23L Vadai barrels (which I now use exclusively) made from Hungarian oak which is very similar to French oak. I am not a huge fan of American oak. Just not in love with the flavor profile. I use some French oak beans as well when I feel like bumping up the oak or layering with two types of oak.
Just remember that you can always add more oak but you can't take it out once its in so be careful if you go adding more than what came with the kit.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 14, 2011)

Thanks Mike. I just went to your web site for the first time and it is quite impressive! I recall seeing the name Chateau Michaelena before, specifically that great label of the chateau! Never connected the two! I started some vines last year after finding 3 on my property from a previous owner. What I planted grew and yielded fruit this year while the inherited 'wild' ones need a proper trimming to yield fruit I believe. Love your setup! I see you made the CC Showcase Zin that I just degassed and cleared last night. Any recs for that particular wine, i.e. oak addition, cold stabilization? I plan to bulk for 6 months. Appreciate any advice. Thanks again for your continuing guidance!


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## ibglowin (Nov 14, 2011)

My CC Showcase OVZ has been a love hate relationship. I left the fines on for almost 6 months and that seemed to left some type of funky off taste (metallic, hard to describe) anyways I don't make that mistake anymore. If I decant the bottle for a few hours it opens up nicely and has great Zin aroma. I think you will like it, it like all the Showcase series will take a year minimum to get close to being drinkable. 
I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Showcase line of kits.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 14, 2011)

Did you cold stabilize that particular one? If not, how are the wine diamonds? Do you think adding some type of oak would enhance it? Or just leave it be?</font></span>


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## ibglowin (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't CS any of them. The winery is 55 degrees 6 months of the year and they will drop a small amount of crystals after about 18 mo or so. All of the Showcase reds have dropped a small amount after 18 mo the way I store them. They stick to the side of the bottle and if you pour carefully they will stay in the bottle.


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## ibglowin (Nov 14, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> Do you think adding some type of oak would enhance it? Or just leave it be?</font></span>



I seem to recall that kit not having a whole lot of oak. I would make as is, bulk age it for 4-6 months or so and then taste. If you think it needs more oak by all means add an ounce or two. Check the oak level every two weeks if you do.
It goes without saying you should never top off with water, only a similar wine.
If you feel like its still missing something other than oak, you are probably in need of some post fermentation finishing tannin like TanCor Grand Cru. That will help with the finish for sure.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 14, 2011)

It came with 2 bags of oak dust that you just mixed into the must. FYI. I may try adding oak with the cab I am making and see how it plays out.Thanks as always for the great advice.


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## RickC (Nov 14, 2011)

Gekko, I have made both of these kits. They are both about 20-21 months old now. Onthis EP Cab my wife and I both felt the same as youduring bulk aging that itneeded a bit more oak so added 1 American Medium Plus spiral for about 3 weeks. Be careful with American Oak as it does get a bit strong quicker than French. For the kits I am making right now I may switch to French if I need additional oak. 
I also made the CC Showcase OVZ and did not add any additional oak to that one. I believe it will turn out OK to my taste. That said, everyone's tastes vary with oak. 
I like the spirals for added oak because it is much easier to begin tasting at 2 weeks and pull them out by the fishing line whenever I am happy with the flavor without having to transfer.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 14, 2011)

Thanks Rick. I was planning to use a hop bag to drop them in. Figured it would be easy to pull then. Do you put the whole bag of oak in? I assume that is considered a 6 gallon carboy dose? Looks like half a cup. Appreciate the advice on American oak. Funny question I have about this extended aging. I keep hearing kit wines are good for about 3 years for reds and 2 years for whites. Yet there are many who say 18-24 months minimum for some of these higher end reds. How do you balance the 2? They seem to conflict. Is it a matter of bulking with additions of SO2 during a 18-24 month bulk age run, then in bottle it is good for 3 years? I didnt want to bulk that long to be honest. I am eager to drink but even more eager to bottle and label my first creations.


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## tonyt (Nov 14, 2011)

I'm a big believer of drinking your first batch after it's done, bottle per instructions schedule and let sit six weeks. During that six week wait, start another batch that you can bulk age 3 months before bottling. Third kit can bulk age even longer. By now you are finishing up drinking the last of your first kit and wishing you had not drank it all because it's getting so good now. At this point you're thoroughly hooked and need more carboys and so on. it's a slippery slope but so worth it.


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## ibglowin (Nov 14, 2011)

You really only need to bulk age 6-8 months. That gives enough time for the wine to clear well, oak to settle in and for the wine to develop enough of a flavor profile so that you can tell what it will be like when it grows up. You should only need 1 or 2 Sulfite (top up) additions max (1/8tsp). One at 4mo and another just before bottling.
You can ease into drinking them at 12-14 months but they really don't get good until 16mo. YMMV as they say, I know we have a few folks on this forum that start hitting them hard at only 3-6mo.


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## RickC (Nov 15, 2011)

Maybe I misunderstand when you are planning to add this additional oak but I wouldn't recommend putting a hop bag into a carboy. Inside primary is fine. 


I always use the oak that was supplied with the kit during primary fermentation and then during time in the carboydecide whether or not additional oak is needed. I also don't utilizethe additional oak based on what should be a fill. Others may disagree with me here but it's simply my taste. Assuming the kitalready has oak then you are simply adding a bit more to your taste. May take a full dose and may not. I am tentative here because I overoaked a wine several years ago and it was barely drinkable. Had to blend with something else in the glass. It's easier to start with lessand add more if needed.


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## RickC (Nov 15, 2011)

Mistake in second paragraph. I don't utilize the additional oak based on what should be a full dose.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hi Rick. What is wrong with the hop bag idea? Or muslin bag I suppose. Seemed like an easy way to 'tea bag' the carboy and maintain control of oak removal. Also I was going to add today as I have 2 months left of the 6 month bulk age. Figured on advice above I would give it a check every 2 weeks.The article Mike supplied was great in that the oak will add 'mouthfeel' which I feel is missing right now.I find the cab thin right now. Is that because it is young? Will it firm up on its own? I was pretty much convinced as of yesterday that this oak addition might be a good idea. The RJS EP Cab came with oak powder and chips that went into the primary already fyi. This would be in addition to that. Any thoughts?


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## tonyt (Nov 15, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> What is wrong with the hop bag idea?


How would you get the tea bag of oak out of the carboy? I am assuming your are aging in a standard glass or plastic carboy with narrow 2 inch or so top opening. Oak beans, cubes and chips will pour out of an empty carboy with a little water. Oak Spirals and staves can be tied to fishing line or dental floss for easy retrieval. I have seen wire cage gadgets for holding oak but thought those were for barrels, not sure if they would fit through the neck of a carboy.

I too usually use all provided oak and then add more if I want during aging. I'm kind of an oak monster and keep a large selection of dust, chips, cubes, spirals and staves. I keep American and french oak in several toasts. Also have a small barrel and hope to get another.


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## RickC (Nov 15, 2011)

Agree with Tony. I don't believe you could get the bag out. That's why I like spirals. Easy to remove without racking to a clean carboy. With only 2 months to go you could add the beans to the carboy and rack and bottle if you get to your desired taste before the full 2 months is over. 
I can't answer your question for sure about lack of age but I believe it needed the extra oak. Once I added the extra spiral, the mouthfeel and flavor changed a lot at only 3 weeks. We sampledours at about 21 months old last weekend and my recommendation still holds. I may wish I had left the spiral ina bit longer.


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## Gekko4321 (Nov 17, 2011)

I am gonna give it a shot and will let you know how it goes. I think I can pull off the hop bag/oak cube move. Live and learn. Thanks for all the advice.


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## Wade E (Nov 17, 2011)

They sell a stainless steel oaking tubes, Heres the 1 George sells for this as a bag can develop mold being in there too long. 



http://www.finevinewines.com/XPListSubRe.asp?MM_PartNumber=5007


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