# Apple Wine: Low pH and Low TA ... what to do.



## xriddle (Nov 27, 2013)

Making my first Apple wine. Used fresh apples and a few lemons. 

Crushed added peptic enzymes and campdem tabs and been macerating for 1 week. Measure the TA and ph today and im sitting at 3.1 ph but my TA is only .32. If I add tartaric or acid blend my Ph will sink lower. Any advice?

Thanks


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## WVMountaineerJack (Nov 28, 2013)

Add the same amount of apples again, no lemons. Can you press you apples or just add cider? WVMJ


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## xriddle (Nov 28, 2013)

Just to clarify I used 15 pounds of apples and 3 small lemons. Are you suggesting I add 10 more pounds of apples?


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## salcoco (Nov 28, 2013)

your numbers do not make sense. a ph of 3.1 should have a ta about .9 or better. always add malic acid to apple wine not tartaric or acid blend. I would retest your acid measurement or make sure you have a good acid testing medium.


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## Turock (Nov 28, 2013)

I totally agree with sal. I would retest the PH but a PH of 3.1 might be correct with the lemons in there. But the TA reading would not be .32

On apple wine, we set our PH to 3.3-to 3.4 and disregard TA. To raise the PH, you would use calcium carbonate pre-ferment. My opinion on fruit--PH is more important than TA.


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## xriddle (Nov 28, 2013)

I'll test again to confirm, but my vinmetrica has never been off. Maybe i didnt read the syringe correctly.... quite possible.

If needed ... will a malic acid addition decrease pH like tartaric does?


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## ShawnDTurner (Nov 28, 2013)

I highly doubt that TA is correct. You would be in the 8.5 to 9 range. You can go with that PH if you want, you will just need to back sweeten it to balance the acid.

I am cold stabilizing an apple wine I made in Feb of this year in my garage(OHIO). The PH is 3.15 with a TA of 8.5 ish.


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## Turock (Nov 29, 2013)

Just asking----if the PH REALLY is 3.1, why do you want to add more acid?


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## salcoco (Nov 29, 2013)

I believe he wants to correct his TA. Go with the Ph and ferment. do any adjustments after fermentation if needed.


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## xriddle (Nov 29, 2013)

Just calibrated my Vinmetrica and retested ... A little frustrated.... pH is 3.08 and TA is 3.4. I'm at a loss. Should I add more fruit or just pinch the yeast and hope it goes well? Thanks everyone much appreciated.


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## BernardSmith (Nov 29, 2013)

I would go by taste. I am not certain (certainly could be my ignorance) why TA is so important when it comes to fruit wines. I generally test for pH but that is to make sure that pH is in a range good for the yeast and bad for uninvited bacteria and mold etc. I use taste to determine if the amount of acidity is within an acceptable range. I know that with grapes the balance between tartaric and malic and other acids are important so TA is a measure that grape wine makers consider important but apples are essentially malic. The lemons you added have added more complexity but your tongue should tell you whether the wine needs more acidic bite or not.


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## tingo (Nov 29, 2013)

If I were you I would try this experiment:

Remove a bottles worth or so from the lot and run a bench test. Add malic acid to the wine to raise TA. Since malic acid is less acidic than tartaric the pH will drop less than adding tartaric acid. Plus fruit wines blend well with malic acid. Once you have raised acidity add potassium carbonate and cream of tartar ( .24g/l) and cold stabilize for a week to remove any tartaric acid. This will lower pH. Recheck TA and pH. This may need to be done a few times. You then are left with two choices if it works, calculate your 750ml adjustment to work with your lot of wine or blend this bottle back into your wine. I would let the TA and pH measurements decide that for me when cold stabilization is over. 

I cannot guarantee this will work but I would love to have this wine to try it with. You are luckier than you know. 

By the way, in my opinion, shelf life is out the window. Drink this wine young.


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## xriddle (Nov 29, 2013)

tingo said:


> If I were you I would try this experiment:
> 
> Remove a bottles worth or so from the lot and run a bench test. Add malic acid to the wine to raise TA. Since malic acid is less acidic than tartaric the pH will drop less than adding tartaric acid. Plus fruit wines blend well with malic acid. Once you have raised acidity add potassium carbonate and cream of tartar ( .24g/l) and cold stabilize for a week to remove any tartaric acid. This will lower pH. Recheck TA and pH. This may need to be done a few times. You then are left with two choices if it works, calculate your 750ml adjustment to work with your lot of wine or blend this bottle back into your wine. I would let the TA and pH measurements decide that for me when cold stabilization is over.
> 
> ...



Are you suggesting to do this Pre or Post fermentation? I only have must for now.


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## tingo (Nov 29, 2013)

Pre if possible. Acidity will marry with a wine much better before fermentation. Im not saying you cant do it afterwards but you should try to get your numbers closer to optimum to avoid microbial activity or stress for yeast.


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## LoveTheWine (Nov 29, 2013)

Does the juice taste good? Is it at all tart? If you are unsure of whether or not to adjust TA then my suggestion is: Don't adjust, ferment as is. The last time I was unsure of measurements but adjusted acid anyways, we ended up with almost un-drinkable wine. If you find the cider needs acid later then add it then.
Sounds like your meter could use a replacement probe?


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## xriddle (Nov 29, 2013)

Tastes great to me ... About the probe ... Works fine with all my grape batches .. Just tested 6 batches and numbers all make sense.


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## GreginND (Nov 30, 2013)

You may want to double check your ta calculations. Are you by chance calculating based on 0.1 Normal NaOH and actually using 0.2 Normal?


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## Turock (Nov 30, 2013)

My opinion is that a PH of 3 is very tart for apple--but if you like it like that, no adjustment would be needed. You might just take my previous advice and ignore TA and go with PH. Proper PH, for the fruit you're using, is very important. Very acidic fruit wines often will interfere with the fruit flavor.

There is nothing better than an aged apple, if it's well-made. Some of the best I had was 5 years old. It really mellows in flavor as it ages in the bottle.


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## Turock (Nov 30, 2013)

If you are working with juice--and this is pre-ferment-- and choose to raise the PH, use calcium carbonate--not potassium. Use 1/4 tsp. at a time and stir very well and/or allow the juice to sit for a time before retaking the PH. Take it to 3.3 or 3.4


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## tingo (Nov 30, 2013)

Turock why do you recommend calcium carbonate?

My reasoning for potassium were as follows:

1. Potassium carbonate works faster than calcium carbonate once it is chilled. In my opinion this is a good idea so he can ferment in more ideal conditions. 

2. Potassium raises pH much more than calcium does. 

3. Since the primary acid is malic, the potassium should not precipitate much after cold stabilization, therefore leaving the pH high. 

If it cant be fixed pre-fermentation, the yeast will struggle with lower pH and the lack of acidity will open the door for potential spoilage. In my opinion.


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## xriddle (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm using apples that I picked myself back in October ... No juice ... I bought some Macintosh apples and juiced them and added them to the must measuring the pH before adding them and it raised my pH slightly to 3.2 but the TA is sitting at 3.6 now according to my vinmetrica. I know my probe is working since I tested the TA of 3 batches of grape wine at the same time and my TA for the wines is right on target at .6-.7.


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## ShawnDTurner (Dec 1, 2013)

Did you forget to double your number in regards to your TA? I believe with the VinM they provide you with .1 solution


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## Turock (Dec 1, 2013)

Calcium carb is always the choice when raising PH pre-ferment. Calcium carb in a fruit wine works by neutalizing the acid, since there is no tartrate to convert to calcium tartrate.

Potassium is always used post ferment for tweaking. I know some white papers talk about using it in the must, but many times you're moving the PH many tenths and too much of it CAN damage the nose and flavor of some wines. Potassium carb always needs to be cold stabilized.

However, he already has an acidic wine and when you take an acidic wine into CS, the PH actually FALLS. A wine going into CS at a PH of 3.65 should stay at that PH. PH rises and falls depending on how far away from 3.65 it starts. 

This isn't an exact formula due to buffer capacity and ability to get accurate readings. But in general, wines below 3.65 will fall and wines above 3.65 will rise in PH with CS.

So he is better off using calcium carbonate to neutralize the acid, instead of trying to drop it out.

You can also ferment this with 71B culture which will metabolize some of the malic, making the wine less harsh. If you use this culture, be sure to rehydrate it with Go-Ferm.


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## LoveTheWine (Dec 1, 2013)

Turock said:


> Calcium carb is always the choice when raising PH pre-ferment. Calcium carb in a fruit wine works by neutalizing the acid, since there is no tartrate to convert to calcium tartrate.
> 
> Potassium is always used post ferment for tweaking. I know some white papers talk about using it in the must, but many times you're moving the PH many tenths and too much of it CAN damage the nose and flavor of some wines. Potassium carb always needs to be cold stabilized.
> 
> ...




Except... It sounds like this must is low in acid, so doing any of the above would lower the acid further. The PH being low isn't a problem if your acid is actually low as well.
If anything, acid should be added... but if the must tastes good right now I say ferment as is. If you need to add some acid later because it's too flabby then no big deal.


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## xriddle (Dec 2, 2013)

LoveTheWine said:


> Except... It sounds like this must is low in acid, so doing any of the above would lower the acid further. The PH being low isn't a problem if your acid is actually low as well.
> If anything, acid should be added... but if the must tastes good right now I say ferment as is. If you need to add some acid later because it's too flabby then no big deal.



I think I will go ahead with this and pinch the yeast today and take it from there. But Turock mentioned something that stuck. This is the only batch that I started in my garage and I'm wondering if the cold (Canada weather) caused it to CS dropping the pH as I was macerating. I suppose its possible.

Thanks again to all I'll post once the ferment completes.


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## xriddle (Dec 2, 2013)

ShawnDTurner said:


> Did you forget to double your number in regards to your TA? I believe with the VinM they provide you with .1 solution



You are correct about the solution but i did double my number. I used 1.8ml of the TA solution to get my ph to 8.2. 1.8x2=3.6.


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## Zog (Dec 11, 2013)

sal said:


> . always add malic acid to apple wine not tartaric or acid blend.



Why is that?


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 12, 2013)

Malic main acid in apples. Tartaric in grapes. Citric in oranges. If you add the same kind of acid that is predominate in the fruit you wont risk changing the taste of the fruit so much. WVMJ




Zog said:


> Why is that?


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