# want to plant about a 1/2 acre. a few questions



## TimTheWiner (Jul 18, 2012)

So I am VERY new into this hobby (less than a year), and just recently made the jump from kits to fresh produce. I definitely am looking forward to grapes later this year. I am probably jumping way ahead with dreams of a 20 acre vineyard someday, but my current job is killing me and I need something to fantasize about. Anyhow, my dad has a small (maybe 1/4-1/2 acre) field that he is tired of mowing and mentioned maybe we could put some vines on it. I see Cabernet Franc grows well in CT (which I love) and maybe would try a white varietal as well. Big question is what time of year do most people try to get the vines started in the ground? I am assuming spring which will give me time to save $$ and plan for next year. Also what route do most people go for vines? Cuttings from other vines or ordering from a site like http://www.doubleavineyards.com/c-1-buy-grapevines.aspx or http://www.willisorchards.com/category/Grape+Vines

I am trying to guesstimate what a project like this will cost, and I want to keep cost at a minimum for now since it will not be commercially sold, but quite intriguing and seems like a good small scale to start with


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## GreginND (Jul 18, 2012)

You want to replace a field that you have to mow with grapes to reduce the work? Keep dreaming. 

Just kidding. 

Planning will be important. You don't say where you are or what varieties you will plant. If you need grafted vines you can't just take cuttings. If you are using other hybrids, cuttings may be an option but I think it's too late to take cuttings now. They need to be taken when the plants are dormant. But I don't have a lot of experience so I could be wrong. I would say that purchasing vines will be your best option. You will want to plan to place your orders this coming fall/winter to make sure you can get what you want for spring planting. You also will want to prepare your soil this year. Get a soil test to see if you need to amend it. If it is grass it may b depleted of nitrogen.


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## garymc (Jul 18, 2012)

$10,000 an acre is one estimate for getting a vineyard started. That would include economy of scale, which you don't have, but your advantage is that you won't likely be hiring people, buying a tractor, etc. If you're able to scrounge things like trellis posts and do a lot of (all of) the labor yourself it could be cut to a few hundred dollars for 1/4 to 1/2 acre. You have to think about the things that need to be done in advance and there are 2 kinds of advance. Things that can be done any time and things that must be done during a growing season or a dormant season. For instance, you might start killing grass and weeds now during the growing season since sprays will be ineffective when they're dormant. You might put in a couple of rows a year for 2 or 3 years, for instance. If you know what variety of vines you're going to raise, you can start planning the trellis system (or just go with something simple to start.) You could be looking around for materials to use for trellis posts (scrounging.) One of the 2 nurseries you mentioned has a good reputation.


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 18, 2012)

Well I am assuming that using some "standard" spacing info that I've looked at I would fit about 200-250 vines which would run me around $650-$850. I think starting the prep work this summer/fall for a spring planting would be ideal. Is it indeed spring when I should be planting? I see that one of the sites sells them as two years old, does that mean I could have a crop in a year or two rather than 3-5??


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 18, 2012)

GreginND said:


> You want to replace a field that you have to mow with grapes to reduce the work? Keep dreaming.
> 
> Just kidding.
> .



lol, what I meant was I can be the one "managing" the field (like its really that big) vs my dad. I am thinking about Cabernet, Sauvignon Blanc, and possibly Riesling. Is the soil testing expensive??


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## tfries (Jul 19, 2012)

We put in a 1/2 acre vineyard 5 years ago. Tilling and preparation of the soil was a few hundred. Planting the 392 vines, trellis materials and instillation were around 1600. Deer fencing and instillation was about 1000. The 392 vines were $2.50 each. As we are dry farming, this did not include any irrigation. A 25 gallon sprayer and 3pt carry all for the tractor was about 500. 1700 feet of bird netting was $500. Powdery mildew and botrytis sprays are a couple hundred a year. Time commitment is several hours a week for vine positioning, tucking and spraying. 

You might think that a 1/2 acre vineyard is not that big, but if you have a full time job and only have weekends to "manage" the field, you will be surprised how much of your spare time is required. You need to be prepared to be fully committed to the vineyard from bud break to harvest.


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 19, 2012)

Well, I basically see this as the ideal opportunity to see if it's something I would really want to do on a large scale someday. Did you have to pay for labor? I am confident I can do all of the trellis, post, fencework myself. I really just have to convince my grandmother to allow me to do it, but their house is only 5 minutes from me so it would be the perfect scenario to get my feet wet and learn the basics. I was a little worried about the deer/bird factor and hadn't really figured that in at all. I wish I personally had the land to do it, but own (and occupy) a duplex at the moment and for at least the next few years so it doesn't seem the ideal place to start.


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## grapeman (Jul 19, 2012)

Cost for that size vineyard can be all over the map. As the others have said, it can be very expensive, but you may substitute some of the expense with a lot of hard work. 
Don't skimp on the trellising. It needs to be substantial and well constructed.
Don't use own-rooted vines for those vinifera you have chose.
Buy from a reputable source such as Double A Vineyards or Grafted Grapevines for those varieties.

As time and the conversation moves along, I will try to give better responses, but time is at a premium this time of year. 

Good Luck!


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jul 19, 2012)

For the first three years about all you do is mow!. I have in about 200 plants and have done it as cost effective as I can. Untill the plants get bigger I use 2 gallon pump up sprayers now, looking at a 15 gallon battery powered one at the farm supply. Posts.. I have a 100x600 strip of cedar trees I am cutting down a few at a time. With the drought, I am watering with 6 gallon "gas" type cans for the young plants I planted this year. Have already lost a few. 12 ga wire, I picked up a 1200' roll at the farm supply for just over $100. Start now looking into what type of grapes you want to grow/make wine out of as you order in the fall ( aug/sept/oct) and plant in the spring (Apr/May). 
Start preping where you want to plant now. we ran a sub soiler ( big hook that plows only one row about 6" wide but we went 2' deep.) Spray with herbicide along the rows to kill off anything under the plants ( I did not do this and have been fighting the weeds there more than anything). Set your rows up at 10' apart, closer if you are not using a tractor ( I have an old Ford 8N that works well, traded for it with an old Farmall M, that was too big). Plants should go about 8' apart depenting on type. End posts can be wood but use metal T posts about every 3rd to 4th plant to susport the wires. First year you probally wont need wires but run them all at one time, no reason to come back and do the work again. If you are running an irragation system, run that wire high enough to get a push mower under it, you may not use one but once the weeds get away from you it is an easy way to get a handle on it. 
The use of bambo poles is handy, had a friend get 3/8 rebar for his stakes, costs a bit more up front but will last forever if you plan on expanding through the years. Bamboo rots out after a while with a life of bout 2 to 4 years. Grow tubes come in handy for the first year, I borrowed some from my friend as he is not planting anymore ( established), cut costs there, or check with a vineyard, they may sell them cheap, new they run between $1 and $2 each. Don't have a problem with deer, just birds, so bird netting when its time to harvest in three to four years. Getting older plants will not give an earler harvest, just a more established plant. 
Plant tyes, the black rubber ones work great for tying the stakes to the wire, but for attaching the plants use the 1/2" green plastic tape, they come in rolls and you can tear off whatever length you need. a handy item is an nail apron to put the plant tyes and trimers in, or anything else you need to carry around with you with out filling up your pockets. A pair of good thin leather gloves, heavy ones for winter.
Sorry for the ramblings, just posting what comes to mind.
Good luck, the reward in the end is worth the work up front.


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 19, 2012)

Well I was/am quite gung ho about the project and doing quite a lot of reading here and some productive google searches. However, not the future of the land in question may be unknown. My grandmother is 88 and I explained to my dad my intentions, he said I could use 1/3 of the field for now and possibly expand later (would kind of rather do it in one shot), but if something happens to her and my 6 aunts/uncles were to get the house I'm sure they would sell it and split the proceeds which would render my years of time/$$ useless. It would be nice if I could someone buy out that small area, but I don't know that the town would allow it and I can't assume any future owner would rent be the land or allow me any access. DAMN! Guess I got a little ahead of myself but I NEED to find a way to get deeper into this sooner rather than later.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jul 19, 2012)

I found a 3 acre plot, was a hay field for sale. the owner financed half for three years. Thats how I got started. With the economy as it is there is someone willing to sell something at a decent price.


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## TJsBasement (Jul 19, 2012)

You could always check out the local tax sales, sometimes property goes really cheap.


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 19, 2012)

Stinks because all property and land in CT is quite expensive. I drool over 5 acre lots in NC and other places that can be had for <$20k, here even a .5 acre is $40k+. Anyway, I may have slightly good news. I talked to my grandmother about the field and she seems like it would be ok, although my dad still thinks that .2 acres is going to be way more than I can handle alone and should start with about a 1/3 of the field. I feel like if it's going to take 3 years for a harvest, then I would prefer to just plant everything at once. Although I am a bit nervous have never tilled, or done much work like this in my life so I will be learning every step of the way. I'll try and post some pics of the area at some point or maybe I'll start a "vineyard progress" thread as I see many do. Also worried that if the houses gets heired to her kids (my aunts/uncles) then the house will be sold, but maybe there is a possibility I could buy off just the small lot or request a future owner to utilize the land? I figure it's worth the money and time just to learn the process.


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## BobF (Jul 19, 2012)

I wouldn't do it. The uncertainty isn't really that uncertain - sounds like the property is NOT going to be yours in the end.

Offer to help out at a local vineyard if you want to learn. You might even be able to work a deal for purchasing grapes at a discount. How much do grapes grown by pros cost in your area? I was considering a Chambourcin planting. I did the research and figured out the cost, the years until harvest, the ongoing time and cost ... then I found that I can buy Chambourcin grapes semi-local for $.65/#, with free use of the vineyards crusher/destemmer. They also have Seyval same price and a press that's also free to use.

Once I got over the romance factor, guess what I decided?


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 19, 2012)

Well maybe it is mostly the romantic attraction at this point. I would just like to believe that there's a way in the future but it would be a lot of time and energy lost if not. I am going to one local Vineyard tomorrow and hoping to pick their brain a bit. There are two others that are about 30 minutes from me.


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## bigdrums2 (Jul 19, 2012)

I did something similar to you with probably a 1,000 invested - good trellis system, wire and vines. If you want to go cheaper, a lot of vineyard will let you keep cuttings if you spend a day working for them. Hundreds of cuttings and then good experience. Now, my two cents....check out hybrids. You can lower your costs significantly and still have good wine. Vinifera is just too fussy - its from Europe, not here. 
Anyways, double a and grafted grape are very good. Grafted I on the winepress forum and gives good tips all the time.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jul 19, 2012)

ShockwaveCT said:


> Although I am a bit nervous have never tilled, or done much work like this in my life so I will be learning every step of the way. I'll try and post some pics of the area at some point or maybe I'll start a "vineyard progress" thread as I see many do. Also worried that if the houses gets heired to her kids (my aunts/uncles) then the house will be sold, but maybe there is a possibility I could buy off just the small lot or request a future owner to utilize the land? I figure it's worth the money and time just to learn the process.


 
You should have seen it the first time I tried to run the tractor with the brush hog

See if she would deed that section of property to you so you won't loose it.
Good luck!


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## Ron22 (Jul 19, 2012)

Like other have said risky if she might give the land away. Either way I would start small the first year and plant more the next for 3 years. You will learn from you mistakes on the first batch and can aply it to the next batch. 
Also see if you can work some kind of deal for her to dead you the part you plant.
By the wy I just planted a few vines so I have no idea what I am talking about


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## TimTheWiner (Jul 20, 2012)

So I refuse to give up on the idea, I may talk to some aunts/uncles and see if I might buy own the small piece of land if/when the time came. For now, I have a question about irrigation. Her well is somewhat shallow and rather not have to be dependent on her water source. I don't know if "just rain" will do it, so I found some 250 gallon rain collection drums for $125 or 60 gallon used food drums for $25. Does anyone have any good links or resources on this kind of irrigation? Do I need a pump/electricity? I am also interested in how to collect the rain other than using a roof.


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## bigdrums2 (Jul 20, 2012)

1 year vines should definitely be watered often, several time a week in the summer (if it's hot where you are at) or they will die. After that just once a week would probably be good.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 2, 2012)

So I am trying to do as much research as possible on what's involved in starting a vineyard start to finish including soil info/additives, actual planting, training, pruning, etc. I know these forums are a GREAT resource, but I am curious if there is any kind of book (or textbook), DVD, or and other resource that has a detailed start-finish breakdown of creating a vineyard. I don't want to miss any steps or important information. I know this undertaking will require hundreds of hours of research.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 2, 2012)

"From vines to wine" Not sure of the author, will check when I get to the store.


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## grapeman (Aug 2, 2012)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> "From vines to wine" Not sure of the author, will check when I get to the store.


 
Jeff Cox

In my humble opinion, much of what he preaches is not necessary for vineyard preparation. Example in point is where he recommends digging a trench and filling it with remixed soil. That may be practical for a small plot, but not your intended vineyard size.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 2, 2012)

May look into it at least. I can always take what I find useful and disregard what doesn't seem necessary or apply to my situation. I am thinking it may be a good idea to start a "Vineyard startup" thread as many have with pics and entries along the way. I think I will be doing soil tests this week.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 3, 2012)

So I will be going to the local Ext office today to pic up my soil kit for this weekend. I came across this page (an EXCELLENT source of info) and noticed that they recommend plowing/tilling NOW and adding soil additives (for ph, pot, mag, etc) this fall (prior to planting in the spring). No problem. One thing I am curious about is they mention a winter ground cover crop. Does this sound like a good idea from anyone with experience, or should I just cover the field with some organic compost to kill of the existing grass and then just till all together in the spring? I like the idea of a compost layer but afraid I won't be able to add anything to the soil until spring then.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 3, 2012)

Had my soil tested, really needed nothing. They said one pound of 6-6-12 per 1000 sq ft. Which comes out to be about a tablespoon per plant. I let it go.
As for vineyard prep, all we did was run a sub soiler down the rows just before planting. With exception of the drought here everything turned out pretty good.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 3, 2012)

So I feel dumb, but what exactly is a sub soiler? I picked up my test kit today. Should I be mixing together the soil from the top 0"-8" depth along with the 8"-16" depth? I am curious if this area will be ok with a "hand"/one person tiller or if I need to find a tractor or plow? How deep should I be breaking up the ground?


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 3, 2012)

a sub soiler is a large hook that goes on the back of a tractor. Insted of plowing a wide swatch, it just cuts a line in the soil where you want to plant. We went down 2'. Most of the county is limestone rock sticking out of the ground, how I got lucky to put this down 2' with out any rocks is beyond me.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 3, 2012)

Looks good! I really want to test soil tomorrow, but with a yard full of grass should I be turning up all the grass/sail FIRST b4 I test or should it not matter much. I want to be sure I'm doing things the right way every step.

And somewhat off-topic, any idea what the water requirements are like per vine? If I had two 4x8 pieces of plywood collecting rainwater, I would collect roughly 150 gallons per month. I don't know if this is sufficient for 150 vines, or if I would need a large surface area for collection.


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## grapeman (Aug 3, 2012)

Do not mix the two tests. 
The samples are best taken with a core tool for soil samples. See if you can borrow one from where you get the soil test kit. Follow the directions for collection for an accurate sample.

A properly prepared soil is of great benefit. The subsoiler is good at breaking up hardpan if the field you plant in has been farmed extensively in the past.

That amount of water is totally inadequate for a vin3e, but may not even be necessary in Connecticut as you likely get 40 inches of rain per year. I only get 30 inches per year and that is enough for the vines on most soils. The vine will consume close to a gallon per DAY not month.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 3, 2012)

Yes, CT averages over 40" per year but I was not counting winter months since the vines will be dormant. I am counting April through Oct which I consider to be the growing season and rain averages around 3.75-4.25" during those months. I was going to install a 350 gallon rain barrel gravity fed to drip lines, but maybe not necessary? I am assuming I would be watering weekly if rain is not present??


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## grapeman (Aug 3, 2012)

It won't hurt to water when you don't get rain, but usually with 4 inches a month, that is an average of an inch per week which is just about ideal. We have gotten only 1.5 inches of rain a month in June and July this year and while it is a bit dry, even the new vineyard is doing great with no watering. That is one good thing about being a bit wetter in the east than the west.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 3, 2012)

So maybe I can wait on an irrigation system? I would still feel much better if I had something in place, but I would assume I could do it while, or shortly after planting next year.


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## tfries (Aug 4, 2012)

My wife and I (mostly my wife) hand watered our 1/2 acre for the first two years. Lots of long hoses and a couple of hours of time every couple of days. Now that the vines are established we dry farm. We get 45-50 inches of rain a year.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 4, 2012)

Cool, the biggest issue is that I don't want to be using my grandmother's water at all since she has a well so I would want to be completely self-sufficient. I hope someone else can chime in about soil sampling before I get out there Saturday afternoon to test. Everything I have been looking at has been saying to take separate samples from a 0"-8" depth and a separate sample from the same area at a 8"-24" depth.  Is this completely necessary and should I be keeping the top soil and sub soil samples apart from each other and then doing two separate tests or should I be combining everything together? The instructions from Uconn say to sample at a 0"-8" depth, but I imagine the roots go quite deep which is why the grape specific sites recommend separate samples at 8"-24". What do I do!!?? If I till the field, I can't imagine that I would be tilling soil this deep or be able to add nutrients or change pH etc at that depth anyway (say over 16").


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 4, 2012)

I think you have answered some of your own question, getting nutrients below 6 to 8" requries some major tilling. The roots will spread in all directions. the deep ones for water the shallow for nutrients. So if you add nutrients to the top of the soil the shallow roots will take them to the plant.
As for watering, if you have enough rain there will be little needed watering. We are in a major drought ( thunderstorms right now! yea) and I have had to water my young plants all summer with 6 gallon water jugs and have lost about half of 100 plants put in this spring ( hoping the roots are still alive and will come back next year). The first year of planting, I did not water at all and only lost 2 or 3 out of 150 plants.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 4, 2012)

Ok, well that makes me feel a bit better. I know I an probably OVER-researching this project, but I want to be well educated so I don't make too many stupid mistakes along the way. I guess I will just do soil samples at about the 8" level and call it a day. Sometimes I think I am over estimating my potential yield as well, thinking that with 150ish vines, I will have 100% yield and thus 450+ bottles of wine per year. I'm sure I do need to take disease and other natural factors into account.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 4, 2012)

Depending on varital, rain, plant vigor etc... a good guesstomate..about a gallon per plant of juice after the third to fourth year. Strip the grapes the first two years and longer for smaller plants. You want all the energy to go to the roots and stem not fruit.
Birds are my bigest loss of grapes, Don't have a deer or turkey problem but they can wipe the grapes out pretty quick too.


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 4, 2012)

Yes, I am afraid I will be battling all of the above and scared to think what bird netting and/or deer fencing would add to the budget. I can already see approaching the $1509-$2000 range and I really don't want to consider spending over $2k on this project especially since its more of an educational project and may not yield much long-term unfortunately (due to possible long-term land use restrictions). My dad has been using containers filled with coyote urine to ward off the deer in his small flower/vegetarian garden but I can't say that it would necessarily keep them from so many delicious grapes.


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## grapeman (Aug 4, 2012)

I just purchased 5000 feet of 17 foot over the top netting for $900 delivered so a quarter acre would be under $250, a half acre for under $500. We are building a netting applicator platform which will run a few hundred dollars that will allow us to install or remove about an acre an hour.

If you use a coring tool, that collects the representative sample from the full 8 inches. You take a minimum dozen plugs, dumping them in a plastic pail and mix them to give a representative sample of the whole area sampled. The deeper sample is for a subsoil sample and will show what is available to deeper roots.

Like I said, follow their collection guide. I am kind of a stickler when it comes to soil samples as my degree is in Agronomy - Plant Science and I took many courses in Soil Science.


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## ibglowin (Aug 4, 2012)

So how in the heck did you end up in drafting! 

No money in Agronomy?


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## TimTheWiner (Aug 5, 2012)

I will surely have my work cut out for me and will be documenting the process in a separate thread. I encountered many large (100+ lb) rocks within 16" of the surface. Since I will be purchasing the vines from Double A Vineyards with sizable roots in place, I think I really need to till the surface then hand dig EACH ROW down to about the 18" depth or so, so I won't have issues planting and getting them to grow well, plus it will ease in post installation in the spring.


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