# Might have killed the yeast....eek!



## mcoltezo (Nov 4, 2010)

Hi,

We've made 4 or 5 kits to date at home and are having a blast with it, though we're still new with all of this! We just put on two kits and one is bubbling away in the airlock and the other is not. My partner wasn't sure if the temp was right with the water added to start each of the yeast packets. We think the one not working may not have been warm enough though it was pretty foamy.

One difference between the two kits is they are both 6 gal kits but we're planning one for a 5 gal carboy and so have only put about that much water in the 6 gal bucket for primary fermentation. This is the one that isn't appearing to do much. 

I'm suspecting the yeast is not working and took a guess at what to buy....and checked when I got home what I should have bought. The yeast that was used was Lalvin EC-1118. The yeast I bought is Lalvin K1-V1116. I know nothing about yeasts. Can I use what I bought? Does it sound like my yeast is dead?

The kit is a Cabernet Sauvignon by Wine Maker's Choice. ....it's a Zeller's purchase (with airmiles!!) (The other kit is same company, Pinot Noir.)

Thanks in advance for any help.

Deanna


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## JohnT (Nov 4, 2010)

mcoltezo said:


> Hi,
> 
> We've made 4 or 5 kits to date at home and are having a blast with it, though we're still new with all of this! We just put on two kits and one is bubbling away in the airlock and the other is not. My partner wasn't sure if the temp was right with the water added to start each of the yeast packets. We think the one not working may not have been warm enough though it was pretty foamy.
> 
> ...



V1116 is a very stong yeast that should ferment up to 18%. It is great for hard and fast fermentation leaving goo crisp flavors. This is more of what I look for in a white wine yeast. 

In short, Yes, the yeast will work in your reds. I would, however, recommend that you go with Lalvin RC212 which is more suited to classic reds.


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## mcoltezo (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks for your quick response!

Does it sound like I did in fact kill the yeast? 

Thanks


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## JohnT (Nov 4, 2010)

This sounds like you have an 20% increase in the sugar and acid levels of your wine. V1116 is rather good at surviving in a high acid, high sugar environment. It sounds like it is more likely that the temp may be your problem. Can you tell me if you think that the temp was too cold or too hot?


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## cpfan (Nov 4, 2010)

Deanna:

Tough to answer your question without further info. Did you take any specific gravity readings? What temperature is the must/wine at?

Some wines will ferment more slowly than others, and some will show little visual sign, especially if the gases are escaping from the primary from somewhere other than the air-lock.

Steve


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## mcoltezo (Nov 4, 2010)

cpfan said:


> Deanna:
> 
> Tough to answer your question without further info. Did you take any specific gravity readings? What temperature is the must/wine at?
> 
> ...



Hi Steve,

The starting specific gravity was 1.080 on Oct 30th. I have the house temp at 67 F. Normally these wine kits have started as the Pinor Noir did: sit a couple days then start bubbling in the airlock. We also taped up around the lid of the bucket. I was sure I was smelling it before we did it, too. And the other bucket we also taped and almost immediately it started with the bubbles. That's why I'm thinking it needs new yeast. If so, can I just add the yeast that was suggested above or should I try to get the same kind as came in the kit (Lalvin EC-1118)?

Cheers,
Deanna


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## Wade E (Nov 4, 2010)

67* is way too cold to get a frementation started and if you rehydrated the yeast with hot water its also possible you have used water that was too hot and killed the yeast. Im not a believer in this procedure and would either just sprinkle or best to make a yeast starter. I agree with JohnT on yeast selection.


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## mcoltezo (Nov 4, 2010)

Wade E said:


> 67* is way too cold to get a frementation started and if you rehydrated the yeast with hot water its also possible you have used water that was too hot and killed the yeast. Im not a believer in this procedure and would either just sprinkle or best to make a yeast starter. I agree with JohnT on yeast selection.



Hi,

I know 67 is chilly...for a wine but actually the Pinot Noir started fermenting pretty much on schedule the other day and our other wines were started around this temp last winter. It definitely was quicker once the weather warmed up. (Come to think of it the very wine that isn't starting now is the same one we started last Feb!).

Our directions told us to use warmish water to start the yeast. Can you just put it in the bucket straight from the packet? What's a yeast starter?

I'll go get the yeast suggested by John. Thanks for the second.

cheers, Deanna


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## Wade E (Nov 4, 2010)

yes you can just sprinkle the dry yeast right onto the must and its actually safer then rehydrating unless you have an accurate thermometer to check the temp as too hot will kill the yeast dead! A yeast starter is when you take the yeast and put it into a small amount of grape juice or orange juice or the like with some nutrient about 24-48 hours before starting your wine so its rip roaring once your wine is ready for it and it also proves that the yeast is good and hasnt expired. I would just get the temp of yoiur wine up to 75* and I bet it will take off just fine.


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## cpfan (Nov 4, 2010)

mcoltezo said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> The starting specific gravity was 1.080 on Oct 30th. I have the house temp at 67 F.


Deanna:

Have you taken any other sg readings? It may be fermenting quietly. Without a second sg reading, you won't know.

Steve


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## mcoltezo (Nov 4, 2010)

Wade E said:


> I would just get the temp of yoiur wine up to 75* and I bet it will take off just fine.



eek! ....well.....I am curious to know if this is all it would take but we normally keep the house at 63 and we're already finding it a bit warm (at 67). ....we wear more layers--me more than my Partner--and it helps with the gas bill.....

I don't have any way to get it so warm.  ....can't really afford a heating blanket and actually kind of wonder about those and if they could have a negative effect on the wine. I'd heard they're not good for humans.

hmmmm.... time for tonight's first glass of wine to contemplate this....

(PS thanks for the rest of your reply. Maybe we won't start the yeast in warm water next time...? We were following the directions.)


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## Craig (Nov 4, 2010)

In my area north of Minnesota, Winnipeg Manitoba to be precise, most winemakers here use brewbelts on primaries and even secondaries to keep the temp up without changing the temp of your house or basement. As we speak my unheated basement is 62F. You can also wrap your primary with a blanket or towel to help build the temp as fermentation starts, but keep an eye on the temp as the fermentation process creates a lot of heat. Right now I start fermentation on the main level of the house and move the process downstairs later on.


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## mcoltezo (Nov 4, 2010)

Craig said:


> You can also wrap your primary with a blanket or towel to help build the temp as fermentation starts, but keep an eye on the temp as the fermentation process creates a lot of heat.



Hi Neighbor ...oh, by about 8 hours I think! 

I didn't realize it generates heat. I'll go down and wrap something around my bucket and see if that doesn't help. That's good to know.

(My Pinot Noir is bubbling away, though even at 67! Curious. Maybe it's more tolerant.)

Thanks Craig,

Deanna


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## Craig (Nov 4, 2010)

Hey check out "the Map" under winemakers tools. Stick your location on there, I knew I wasn't the only person in Sask, Man, NW Ontario and ND.


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## Dugger (Nov 5, 2010)

mcoltezo said:


> ... We also taped up around the lid of the bucket. I was sure I was smelling it before we did it, too. And the other bucket we also taped and almost immediately it started with the bubbles...



Hi Deanna - when you say tape up the lid, do you put tape around it to seal the cover to the bucket or just put a couple of strips to hold the lid in place? A lot of us just lay the cover on loosely to afford easy access to monitor the fermentation. Others put the lid on tight and use an airlock. Whatever you do, don't seal the cover to the bucket without a way for the fermentation gases to escape.
Most kits just have you sprinkle the yeast on top and as long as the must temp is reasonable, the yeast will start working within a day. This is the easiest and safest way. 
Good luck ... Doug


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## mcoltezo (Nov 5, 2010)

Dugger said:


> Hi Deanna - when you say tape up the lid, do you put tape around it to seal the cover to the bucket or just put a couple of strips to hold the lid in place? A lot of us just lay the cover on loosely to afford easy access to monitor the fermentation. Others put the lid on tight and use an airlock. Whatever you do, don't seal the cover to the bucket without a way for the fermentation gases to escape.
> Most kits just have you sprinkle the yeast on top and as long as the must temp is reasonable, the yeast will start working within a day. This is the easiest and safest way.
> Good luck ... Doug



Hi Doug,

We use an airlock. The first bucket we found for fermentation used to hold bulk food and so the lid doesn't seal perfectly and the airlock did nothing. With the seal of tape the airlock now does its thing and we can see when it finally slows down and is probably ready for the next step. 

Actually we just purchased another bucket as I just couldn't find any food grade that were big enough to reuse :-( This new bucket lid goes on a lot tighter and we're not looking forward to trying to get the thing off, but it still seemed to be letting fermentation gases out.... Or, so I thought. This is the bucket is question for which I started this thread.

Oh, Update: put blankets around them last night...and ....not much different but it's only been one night. I'm thinking of just going and getting more yeast and wrestling the lid off...eek. (It _was_ really hard to get to snap shut...wish me luck!)

Well, that was a long reply!


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## Dugger (Nov 5, 2010)

So the bucket in question has the lid on tight and has an airlock but no bubbles are coming out? This might not necessarily mean you have no fermentation. To quote cpfan " visual signs of fermentation are highly overrated" or something like that. The only way to tell for sure is to take hydrometer readings - if the SG is dropping then fermentation is underway. That is why I use a loose lid, so I can easily remove the cover and take a quick reading; in fact, I just leave my hydrometer in the bucket so I don't have to clean it each time. You are right about it not being easy to remove a tight lid!
Regarding the blanket, you won't get much heat generated in the bucket until a robust fermentation is underway.
The brewbelt is different from a heating blanket/pad - the belt is just a thin belt with 2 heating wires through it - it just wraps around your bucket/carboy; they are a great help and use practically no energy to run.
Before you add more yeast, take a SG and see if in fact you already have a ferment going.


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## mcoltezo (Nov 5, 2010)

Dugger said:


> So the bucket in question has the lid on tight and has an airlock but no bubbles are coming out? This might not necessarily mean you have no fermentation. To quote cpfan " visual signs of fermentation are highly overrated" or something like that. The only way to tell for sure is to take hydrometer readings - if the SG is dropping then fermentation is underway.



Yep, that's how the bucket is. There's a bit of condensation on the airlock but no bubbles actively moving the inner cap. 

Thanks for your suggestion. I will do it this morning. If it's not fermenting I'll go get the suggested yeast. 

It doesn't smell like the other bucket which, to me, smells normal for this stage but the SG will confirm what is or is not happening. 

...all of this providing I can in fact get the lid off!

There is also more room in this bucket too, given we're planning a 5 gal vs 6 gal carboy next but as I mention above....it smells different. I'll update after the SG reading. 

....got to psych myself up to do this.......I fear finger damage......be afraid...be verrry afraid!!


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## mcoltezo (Nov 5, 2010)

Update.....

Starting SG was 1.1 and today it's 1.02. Hmm! And, my directions indicate to let it sit until it reaches 1.02. 'course, now I'm wondering if I'm reading it right but the hydrometer is definitely sitting much lower in the juice. 

So what gives?! I'm guessing it's the fact that there is so much extra room in the bucket above the liquid than the other bucket, so the airlock was not showing anything. I anticipated they'd move at pretty much the same time given they're from the same company and we've made these kits before. The Pinot Noir is acting as expected. But the Cab-Sau was a test but I didn't expect to see differences right from the start. I was just curious how its taste would differ given the juice to water ratio is different than this same kit we did before (we have 3 bottles left from the 6 gal version).

So, I guess there's no panic. 

I've left the hydrometer in the bucket. I like that suggestion!

Cheers and thanks for your help.


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## Dugger (Nov 5, 2010)

Glad to hear it's going in the right direction.


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## mcoltezo (Nov 5, 2010)

Yeah, whew!

Do you think it was/is so different because it's got more space in the bucket (5 gal in 6 gal pail)? I ask 'cause we'll likely do this again.

Thanks


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2010)

mcoltezo said:


> Yeah, whew!
> 
> Do you think it was/is so different because it's got more space in the bucket (5 gal in 6 gal pail)? I ask 'cause we'll likely do this again.
> 
> Thanks



As Dugger pointed out, and is highlighted in my signature, you should not depend on visiual signs of fermentation.

I'm a bit surprised that an inexpensive kit from Zellers has an original sg of 1.100. I would have guessed 1.082 roughly. But then I have never made one. I haven't noticed them in the Zellers near here, but then I haven't looked for them either.

Steve


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## Dugger (Nov 5, 2010)

Deanna - no, the headspace in the bucket would not influence fermentation. When you say 5 gal in a 6 gal pail, are you referring to 5 Imp gal ( 23 liters) or 5 US gal ( 19 liters)?

Steve - I was a bit surprised at the high SG as well. It could be because the must was not mixed well with the water to begin with or it could be because the kit was made to 5 gal rather than 6 gal ( I'm assuming these are US gal).


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2010)

Dugger said:


> it could be because the kit was made to 5 gal rather than 6 gal ( I'm assuming these are US gal).


Great point. I forgot about that point. It's not something that I would do, so it escaped my mind.

Steve


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## mcoltezo (Nov 5, 2010)

Dugger said:


> Deanna - no, the headspace in the bucket would not influence fermentation. When you say 5 gal in a 6 gal pail, are you referring to 5 Imp gal ( 23 liters) or 5 US gal ( 19 liters)?
> 
> Steve - I was a bit surprised at the high SG as well. It could be because the must was not mixed well with the water to begin with or it could be because the kit was made to 5 gal rather than 6 gal ( I'm assuming these are US gal).



Hi Steve and Dugger,

They must be the US gal. I knew US & Imp were different but not by that much. No, we have a couple of 18.9 L carboys and I was going to use one of them. In prep, I used a 23 L pail but only put in about 18 or so litres. It was a bit of a guestimation...I just filled to a little higher than the 15 litre mark on the bucket and figured we'd adjust when we rack to the carboy.

I looked back in our notes and we've done 3 from Zellers (you can buy them with an HBC gift card that you can get with Airmiles!! Free wine! Fits our pocket book.). The starting SGs were 1.08, 1.09, 1.08 and the recent ones are 1.086 and the big one in question, 1.1. I'm pretty sure that's what it said. There was a lot of foam so I did have some _fun_ getting the reading.

I won't rack anything for a couple of days. I want to wait for the Pinot Noir to be ready so I only have to wash stuff in one session. We're also going to start two more: Aussie Shiraz (Zellers), and Riesling (Cheeky Monkey).

Cheers


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2010)

mcoltezo said:


> and Riesling (Cheeky Monkey).


Finally a GOOD ONE. 

Could be decision time for you. I believe that this pack comes with a sweetening pack (Vineco web-site lists it as a "1"). I haven't made this kit, but I did make the Cheeky Monkey Gewurztraminer. I made it as per the instructions. Next time, I'll be making it dry. It's not overly sweet but it's sweeter than we like.

So do you prefer a dry Riesling or one that's off-dry?

Steve


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## mcoltezo (Nov 5, 2010)

cpfan said:


> Finally a GOOD ONE.
> 
> Could be decision time for you. I believe that this pack comes with a sweetening pack (Vineco web-site lists it as a "1"). I haven't made this kit, but I did make the Cheeky Monkey Gewurztraminer. I made it as per the instructions. Next time, I'll be making it dry. It's not overly sweet but it's sweeter than we like.
> 
> ...



Steve,

I'm laughing and smiling! Yeah, a good one.... Actually, I'm drinking the Cheeky Monkey Gewurztraminer right now! Truly! 

I find it sweeter than my preference. My Partner wanted to try it. I'm into dry. I used to drink Bordeaux way back in my youth but then had latched onto something called Grand Vernaux....a French Table wine..... "tasty, yet cost effective" as I like to say. They (LCBO) stopped carrying that one about 4 1/2 years ago.... :-( and I floundered a bit....Now we're making our own.

The Gewurztraminer is okay, but we're trying the Riesling next. Again, Riesling is sweeter than my preference but my Partner likes it...and it's a compromise on whites. We've tried Ken Ridge and the Cheeky Monkey along with a wonderful Aussie Shiraz at Wine Kitz (the 5 week). Those were when we weren't making them at home. The Ken Ridge were...okay...but not spectacular. The Shiraz was great almost from the start...and then kept getting better. They were out when we just went looking. The "Wine Maker's Choice" from Zellers are actually not bad and well...tasty, yet cost effective (or free with airmiles!)! Though we're trying the one in a 5 gal (18.9 L) this time to see if there will be a taste difference. It was okay the last time and then got better as time went along even from the 6 gal size.

How do you make a wine less sweet? (or more, for that matter)


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## diggerdan17 (Nov 6, 2010)

mcoltezo said:


> Steve,
> 
> I'm laughing and smiling! Yeah, a good one.... Actually, I'm drinking the Cheeky Monkey Gewurztraminer right now! Truly!
> 
> ...



you add half the f pac up front before the fermentation starts !


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## Dugger (Nov 6, 2010)

For a drier Riesling, you might try the Johannesburg (sp?) Riesling if you can find it; I believe it is a drier one.


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## cpfan (Nov 6, 2010)

diggerdan17 said:


> you add half the f pac up front before the fermentation starts !


Yep thats how you make it drier. To make it dry, add the whole pack up front. Thats what I usually do with the Ken Ridge Showcase German Gewurztraminer.

Steve


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## mcoltezo (Nov 6, 2010)

That's cool. I didn't know you could alter sweet or dry except by adding sweetener which we tried one time and didn't overly like.


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