# Malolactic fermentation



## Runningwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

Since there are quiet a few members attempting this for the first time in the next few weeks, is there any advice someone can give us on proper procedures.

When racking to the secondary do you rack off all of the sediment? I've read temps should be about 65*-75*. Do not use L 1118 yeast. Does the carboy need to be topped up during this process with no sulfites? How does the tests work and what numbers are you shooting for on them?


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## Wannabe (Apr 1, 2011)

Wonderful suggestion.


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## Flem (Apr 1, 2011)

Excuse me Wannabe for redirecting this thread back to its original intent. I believe Dan's questions pertain to the steps in MLF (malolactic fermentation) and not to general wine making procedures. Again, I apologize but there are many who are going to be using this type of fermentation in the near future.


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## Wannabe (Apr 1, 2011)

Sorry. You are correct. I was very interested in his question and my mind just went racing. Didn't mean to carried away


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## Wade E (Apr 1, 2011)

Yo want to carry over some sediment as the malo lactic bacteria use this for nutient. You should have this topped up as this fermentaion produces very little C02 and there is very low sulfite levels at this time. Ive never heard of the EC1118 yeast not being used. I dont recommend using any sulfites as it can hider the bacteria. Check out the tutoarials for MLF as far as testing, they are very good and informative videos and can show you better then anyone could explain it probably.


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## winemaker_3352 (Apr 1, 2011)

I have no experience with this - but i have read that the Lalvin D-47 is great if you are looking at doing MLF.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

The use of Citric acid or Lalvin EC 1118 yeast is not recommended if you intend to have Malolactic fermentation. EC-1118 produces SO2 that can interfere with a malolactic fermentation

This is the link.


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## Wade E (Apr 1, 2011)

Dan you are right, the EC1118 inhibits ML fermentation and Jon is also right, that yeats prefers MLF. I dont use either of thiose yeasts.


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## Flem (Apr 1, 2011)

Dan, What type of yeast comes in the juice buckets from L'uva Bella? Will it hinder MLF?


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## Runningwolf (Apr 1, 2011)

I do not know. It is already added when they come in so I am just running with it.


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## Julie (Apr 2, 2011)

Dan, didn't Frank or Joey, not sure which one, tell us that they use 1118? I would swear that is what they said because you said that is what I use. I do believe it was Frank who made this comment. We were asking about adding yeast and he said not to because it was already added and if you did you would have to use the same yeast and that is when you said "1118 is what I use."


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## Wade E (Apr 2, 2011)

I just did some research on this as I always do when I dont know the answer so that I am informed. Under low nutrient conditions this yeast actually produces higher levels of S02 in the wine which is why it inhibits MLF. So i you do use this yeast I recommend using a malolactic bacteria strain that has higher tolerances to S02 like Lalvin VP41 which has a high abv tolerance of 15% and S02 tolerance of 50 - 60 ppm.


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## Racer (Apr 2, 2011)

Thanks for bringing up the topic about MLF now. I don't know if all the juice from chile is done this way but my source by me sells juice that is pre-innoculated with ec-1118 yeast. So Wades comments need to be followed if thats what folks will be working with. Here's a link to Midland that shows each variety is all set to go with the yeast already added in the juice for you. I haven't looked it back up but bacchus may be another mlf strain that can tolerate high So2 levels too. It has handled all my mlf's without a problem every time I've used that strain.


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## Wade E (Apr 2, 2011)

If thats the case Id hit it with sulfite and add another yeast. Im not saying that because it wont work but just because 1118 isnt the greatest yeast fir bringing out the aspects of what each wine can. Below is a great link to selecting your yeast according to the type of wine you are making any what you want to accentuate.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf&pli=1


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

I don't like juice buckets that already have yeast. I would add meta and make a starter of something like RC212 for reds. 
Now if you plan on MLF on more that 4 buckets I would suggest lalvin VP41 or 33 as these pkg is good for 66 gallons and is much cheaper that getting 1 pkg per 6 gal.


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## Racer (Apr 2, 2011)

I would normally pass on pre-innoculated juice too but I'm running low on white wine and I wanted to see how this vendor was to work with. The one shop in chicago I've dealt with before was a real PITA to work with on grape orders in past years. I talked with the vendor I gave a link for and what he told me was that the juice comes from the processor(Chile?) already set with the yeast in the juice. Since his order time line matches all the east coast suppliers time line I'm reading here I started to assume that the vendors you folks out east have are also getting the buckets that way too.It might pay to double check.


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## Julie (Apr 2, 2011)

Racer said:


> I would normally pass on pre-innoculated juice too but I'm running low on white wine and I wanted to see how this vendor was to work with. The one shop in chicago I've dealt with before was a real PITA to work with on grape orders in past years. I talked with the vendor I gave a link for and what he told me was that the juice comes from the processor(Chile?) already set with the yeast in the juice. Since his order time line matches all the east coast suppliers time line I'm reading here I started to assume that the vendors you folks out east have are also getting the buckets that way too.It might pay to double check.



I think you are right, I got a juice bucket last fall from Comsumers Produce and on the bucket it stated that the yeast was already added. So I'm thinking that the buckets are all coming that way as well.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> I don't like juice buckets that already have yeast. I would add meta and make a starter of something like RC212 for reds.
> Now if you plan on MLF on more that 4 buckets I would suggest lalvin VP41 or 33 as these pkg is good for 66 gallons and is much cheaper that getting 1 pkg per 6 gal.



Tom when getting the cultures like this, how do you separate them. Its says very minimal air contact. Do you separate it dry or add it to a cup of wine and then separate.


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## Wade E (Apr 2, 2011)

Just dont leave a package sitting on your workbench all day otherwise its fine either.


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Runningwolf said:


> Tom when getting the cultures like this, how do you separate them. Its says very minimal air contact. Do you separate it dry or add it to a cup of wine and then separate.



They are dry. Just rehydrate them and add. I hydrate them in 11 shot glasses (why 11? if I had 11 6 gal carboys thats 66 gal thats what VP41 will do) then divide that into the number of carboys


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Julie said:


> I think you are right, I got a juice bucket last fall from Comsumers Produce and on the bucket it stated that the yeast was already added. So I'm thinking that the buckets are all coming that way as well.


NOT mine...


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Thanks Wade. I'll have to return the one I got Friday at PI and get another one that you recommended. Thanks for doing the research as there is so many of us trying it for the first time in the next couple of weeks.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> They are dry. Just rehydrate them and add. I hydrate them in 11 shot glasses (why 11? if I had 11 6 gal carboys thats 66 gal thats what VP41 will do) then divide that into the number of carboys



Thanks Tom. So I could just rehydrate them in a beaker with 90 Ml of water and add 30 ml to my three carboys, right. Is water ok to use, the instructions say's not to. Otherwise I'll just use wine.


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Wait.
What culture did you get?


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom, it's called Vinaflora Oenos. It is good for up to 65 gallons.


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Eitherwill work.
DO NOT ADD META TILL MLF IS OVER

Do NOT EVER add Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

So you're saying I can use this culture even though it said not to use with ec1118?


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## grapeman (Apr 2, 2011)

I take a 500 ml beaker and add 330 ml warm water. I then add the whole packet of culture to it along with a bit of starter. Let that go for the length of time needed to activate it and then add 5ml water mixture per gallon. That way you can treat many size carboys or containers with the correct amount.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

That makes sense just like Tom's shot glasses. Since I have three 6 gallons carboys its an easy split. Thanks Rich.


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## djrockinsteve (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> Do NOT EVER add Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF



Tom why is that and can you still sweeten prior to bottling without risking refermentation?


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## Wade E (Apr 2, 2011)

The mixture of the 2 can cause a Geranium taste and smell and no you wont be able to sweeten this wine without risk of refermentation.


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

djrockinsteve said:


> Tom why is that and can you still sweeten prior to bottling without risking refermentation?




YOU CAN'T with a WINE that went thru MLF


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## djrockinsteve (Apr 2, 2011)

Always learning. Thanks.


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

Runningwolf said:


> So you're saying I can use this culture even though it said not to use with ec1118?


I've Not used that culture. Not sure why it cant with 1118. Why did you get this culture if it says not to use with 1118?


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Tom said:


> I've Not used that culture. Not sure why it cant with 1118. Why did you get this culture if it says not to use with 1118?



I'm a rookie and took what they gave me. When I got home I did a search and found those instructions on line from Fallbright Wineries in the Finger Lakes.


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## Wade E (Apr 2, 2011)

Dan, you have an S02 tester now so check it and make a decision then as to if its safe to use that culture. Thats why we have thses testing units!


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Dan, you have an S02 tester now so check it and make a decision then as to if its safe to use that culture. Thats why we have thses testing units!



HUH! why didn't I think of that, boss?


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

DUH !!!!


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## Wade E (Apr 2, 2011)

Hehehe, mine comes in on Tuesday! I will be giggling like a little schoolgirl!


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## Runningwolf (Apr 2, 2011)

want some candy?


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## Tom (Apr 2, 2011)

What next??
Flashing?


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## KevininPa (Apr 2, 2011)

Keep S02 down
make sure ph is above 3.20
use a good nutrient like microessentials
keep warm >70 degrees
keep carboys topped off well
be patient


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## ibglowin (Apr 2, 2011)

OK, that's creepy........ 




Runningwolf said:


> want some candy?


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## Flem (Apr 3, 2011)

Ok, so it sounds like I should be using Lalvin VP41 for the MLF on my Carmenere juice bucket as it should be compatible with the EC1118 that I believe my juice bucket will have in it. Does in come in individual packets for 6 gallon batches? I hope I can get it through one of the internet vendors as I can't get it locally.


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2011)

No, only comes for 66 gallons. Yes, you can get thru at least one of our approved vendors


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## Wade E (Apr 3, 2011)

I would also get some Opti Malo plus (nutrient ) to go with it!


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## Flem (Apr 3, 2011)

Tom said:


> No, only comes for 66 gallons. Yes, you can get thru at least one of our approved vendors



Holy Crap!! $29.95 for 66 gallons. And I only need it for 6 gallons. Since it's dry I should be able to divide it. Question is: will the remainder keep for any length of time?


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## Runningwolf (Apr 3, 2011)

Flem said:


> Holy Crap!! $29.95 for 66 gallons. And I only need it for 6 gallons. Since it's dry I should be able to divide it. Question is: will the remainder keep for any length of time?



I paid like $17.00 at Presque Isle. You should be able to find something for six gallons but it is still $10.00. You can not save it. It must be used immediately.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 3, 2011)

Ok started two MLF's today for the Carmenere and Melbec. 
Carmenere sg .998 ph 3.42 S02 18ppm
Melbec sg 99.4 ph 3.44 S02 12

Holy smokes I didn't realize I would get a volcano upon stirring, use caution LOL

Used Italian carboys and with three wines I ended up a quiet short. I racked the Melbec and Carmenere into six gallon carboys and my Zinfandel into a five. I realize each one holds about 1/4 gallon extra. I used the zinfandel for topping up the other two.


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## grapeman (Apr 3, 2011)

You can open the package and take out what is needed. Use a gram scale. Reseal the package and freeze it. It will keep about 6 months with no problem.

MLB is expensive. You can buy Bacchus from wine supply stores for about $8 and it does 5-6 gallons. It is in the same packages as yeast. It also comes with it's own nutrient so is easy to use. I have had some people like the taste of the wine with that rather than the fancier ones.


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## Wade E (Apr 3, 2011)

Dan, since these were buckets of juice and not from grapes where you press them then they are loaded with C02 just like a kit so yes they will foam. Its mainly because you are putting something in there that the C02 nucleus's can attach to which make them release. Kind of like a balloon or bubble on a popcorn ceiling.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks Wade, just a heads up to thse following me. Don't fill your carboy to the top before adding and stirring your culture. I planned on vigorous stirring and ended up with gentle stirring several times over 20 minutes.


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## Flem (Apr 3, 2011)

So Dan, with your Carmenere SO2 level only being 18ppm, mine should be approximately the same---right? Therefore I should not have to use a culture that needs a tolerance against high SO2 levels. Is that correct? The one that had been recommended was quite expensive ($29.95) and made 66 gallons. Does anyone have a "cheaper" recommendation for a 6 gallon batch.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 3, 2011)

Mike what about this one if you can't buy it local.


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## Wade E (Apr 3, 2011)

Every fermentation will produce different levels of everything. You really should test everything. Also, not everybatch needs MLF but in general most red wines will benefit from it. Below is a link for some good reading material on MLF. Flem, Im betting your S02 levels are just fine but if your worried either test it or aerate it a little but at this stage Id vere from that one much. 
http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wredw.pdf


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## grapeman (Apr 3, 2011)

Runningwolf said:


> Mike what about this one if you can't buy it local.


 Yes, that is the one I recommended on the last page of posts. They run right around $8. They are more than yeast, but are harder to keep viable so cost more.


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## buddy (Apr 3, 2011)

Tom said:


> Eitherwill work.
> DO NOT ADD META TILL MLF IS OVER
> 
> Do NOT EVER add Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF



Oops. I back-sweetened a chokecherry wine that went through MLF about a month ago. Right now it tastes fantastic. How long could this wine go before it starts to flower (geranium).


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## Tom (Apr 3, 2011)

Did you add Sorbate?


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## Julie (Apr 3, 2011)

buddy said:


> Oops. I back-sweetened a chokecherry wine that went through MLF about a month ago. Right now it tastes fantastic. How long could this wine go before it starts to flower (geranium).



how do you know it went through MLF?


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## Racer (Apr 3, 2011)

There are test kits for checking whether or not the malic acid has been converted or not. Here's a link that has a good explaination and has a link to their mlf manual too.


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## buddy (Apr 3, 2011)

Julie said:


> how do you know it went through MLF?



The MLF happened spontaneously. There were the telltale signs of small bubbles rising in the carboy for about a month and a half. 
I had made two 6 gallon batches of chokecherry wine about 2 weeks apart. The first batch I added k-meta soon after the fermentation was over. I did not add any k-meta to the second batch as quickly as the first and then I noticed all the bubbles, so I let it run through the MLF as this could be very good for a chokecherry wine.

Did you add Sorbate? 
Yes. The original batch was 6 gallons. I bottled 4 gallons of that dry with k-meta only. Sorbate as well as k-meta were added to the other two gallons. Back-sweetened to a specific gravity of 1.019

I think I will just keep sampling a bottle from time to time to see if any strange taste develops.


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## Julie (Apr 3, 2011)

I am not sure you went through and mlf, this don't normally happen with a fruit wine. I am thinking you went through a re-fermentation. Have you been taking readings of your wine?


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## buddy (Apr 3, 2011)

Julie said:


> I am not sure you went through and mlf, this don't normally happen with a fruit wine. I am thinking you went through a re-fermentation. Have you been taking readings of your wine?



The wine did ferment to dry (.995). There was no additional sugar added after fermentation.
From what I have read Chokecherry is very high in malic acid and this is why I thought that MLF occurred.


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## Wade E (Apr 3, 2011)

Yep, this fruit, apple, and blackberry among a few others do have enough malic acid in them for a fermenant to be possible. If you do taste the geranium you will just have to add an f-pack or somethng to mask it.


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## Flem (Apr 3, 2011)

Okay guys, I'm going to order the Lalvin you recommended for the MLF. I have a sizeable order for George (gonna get that Italian Floor Corker) so I'll include it with that. Thanks again!


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## Runningwolf (Apr 3, 2011)

WOW an Italian floor corker. Very cool, you are getting serious.


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## hoffman13954 (Apr 9, 2011)

I have been reading and reading about MLF. I am fermenting a Pinot Noir that I purchased from Luva Bella. It sounded like something that I wanted to do to make the best tasting wine I can. I have noticed that if you look at most articles about it they are not talking about doing a MLF with kit wines or juice. I have now read a couple of places that they do not recommend doing a MLF on kit wines since they are adjusted for acid prior to you receiving the kit. I don't want to mess up my first wine kit so I will forgo the MLF until I get a little more experience. 

Daryl


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## grapeman (Apr 9, 2011)

Please don't do mlf on kit wines.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 9, 2011)

hoffman13954 said:


> I am fermenting a Pinot Noir that I purchased from Luva Bella. I have noticed that if you look at most articles about it they are not talking about doing a MLF with kit wines or juice. I don't want to mess up my first wine kit so I will forgo the MLF until I get a little more experience. Daryl



So daryl are you doing a kit wine and a bucket of juice. The juice is Pinot Noir, which kit wine did you get? Are you also going to forgo mlf on the juice?


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## hoffman13954 (Apr 9, 2011)

Maybe I am using the wrong terminology. I considered the juice that I picked up at Luva Bella as a kit wine since they have added everything to it before I purchased it. They told be that all I had to do is open and stir. Doesn't get much easier than that. 

Daryl


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## Runningwolf (Apr 9, 2011)

I had a feeling thats what you meant. This is a kit wine. Its basically concentrated juice with all the chemicals premeasured already for you in packets, along with step by step instructions. They are actually quiet good.
I am doing an MLF on two of my three reds. Julie is not doing the mlf on hers. When I talked to Joe their winemaker he does not do an mlf either. So it is totally your call on which way to go. This is my first time doing it. As Rich posted above, do not do MLF's on a kit wine.

Doing an MLF on Juice could get you an MILF.


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## hoffman13954 (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks Dan, now I know which direction I am going to go and that is not to do MLF. I think I might have ended up with something that I didn't want to drink. I can't imagine a wine with a fish taste. Sends chills down my spine. 

Daryl


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## Flem (Apr 10, 2011)

Daryl, I'm still confused as to what you purchased. A kit wine like Dan referred to above or a juice bucket with the yeast added. If it's the latter, you have to do a little more than just stir it up. Just curious.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 10, 2011)

Mike, he got the juice bucket.


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## Julie (Apr 11, 2011)

Hi Daryl,

What juice did you buy at Luva Bella's? Just curious.

Dan is doing the MLF on a Malbec, I decided not to do an MLF on my Malbec, we are going to compare the difference.


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## hoffman13954 (Apr 11, 2011)

Mike & Julie,
I purchased the Pinot Noir. It is in a 6 gallon bucket. The Luva Bella instructions that they give you say to stir and ferment. They didn't say anything about adjusting the acid, sugar, etc. I also talked to one of the guys that was bringing out the buckets and he told me that everything was added for me. If they did only put the yeast in guess what the family is getting for Christmas gifts. My sister in law will get 2 bottles. 
Julie, did you go to fat jimmies yet?

Daryl


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## almargita (Apr 11, 2011)

So I can safely assume that if I get a Chilian juice bucket, it doesn't need all the additional steps of a MLF & different yeasts. Everything is adjusted & included in the bucket, similar to a kit, less the clearing agents?? A successful wine can be made as is without all the tweaking & expense of the MLF & whatever else. Just trying to make the best wine in the easiest method & have never done any juice buckets.
AL


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## Runningwolf (Apr 11, 2011)

Yes Al that is correct. I would call Luva Bella's and see what they have and get it there.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 11, 2011)

Julie said:


> Hi Daryl,
> Dan is doing the MLF on a Malbec, I decided not to do an MLF on my Malbec, we are going to compare the difference.



Juile last night in the chat room we were doing some fermenting and I got to experiment with a MILF also.


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## ibglowin (Apr 11, 2011)

Going into the corner early today eh..........


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## Julie (Apr 11, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Going into the corner early today eh..........



I think he is on a roll, he started getting into trouble last night and apparenty he is still going strong.


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## Julie (Apr 11, 2011)

hoffman13954 said:


> Mike & Julie,
> ....
> Julie, did you go to fat jimmies yet?
> 
> Daryl



No Daryl, haven't had the chance yet but did tell my husband we need to head up there.


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## Flem (Apr 17, 2011)

Going to start my Carmenere juice bucket very soon. I am planning to put raisins in the primary and put it through malolactic fermentation (after primary). I know not to add sufites before the malolactic fermentation but I have a question about topping off. The bucket is six gallons. I know from experience that a six gallon bucket or kit will not fill a 6 gallon carboy even after settling out the lees. Not wanting to rack to a 5 gallon carboy and save the balance for future use unless I absolutely have to, will the little bit of sulfites in a commercial bottle of carmenere affect the malolactic fermentation process?? Thanks!


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## Tom (Apr 17, 2011)

Mike,
do primary in a bucket (lay lid on top). Let it go dry and rack to 6 gal carboy. You should not have much over. Put that in a 750ml or 1.5ltr. Add MLF to carboy and let it sit W/O meta for 2-3 months. Then rack and add mets.


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## ibglowin (Apr 17, 2011)

Not as long as the overall SO2 level is below what the MLB can withstand. It varies by culture.

May I ask why you would want to put raisins in with Carmenere? The flavor profile just does not go together IMHO. You would be better off with a CC Cab Sauv Grape Pack or just adding in some Tancor Grand Cru down the road if you need more mouthfeel, etc.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 17, 2011)

Tom said:


> Mike,
> do primary in a bucket (lay lid on top). Let it go dry and rack to 6 gal carboy. You should not have much over. Put that in a 750ml or 1.5ltr. Add MLF to carboy and let it sit W/O meta for 2-3 months. Then rack and add mets.



Tom you got me confused. He has a 6 gallon bucket of juice he will ferment out of. The question is when he transfers to a carboy to do the mlf he'll fall short in the Italian carboy. Can he use a comercial wine to top up with at that point or will the possibility of it having sorbate in it effect it. This is also the same question I had.


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## grapeman (Apr 17, 2011)

If the bottle of commercial wine has 60 ppm sulfite and you add it to a 30 bottle carboy, you are only raising the sulfite levels 2 ppm. This is not enough to inhibit mlb so the mlf will occur.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 17, 2011)

Rich, what about the Sorbate in the commercial wine. Will that have any effect?


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## Flem (Apr 17, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Not as long as the overall SO2 level is below what the MLB can withstand. It varies by culture.
> 
> May I ask why you would want to put raisins in with Carmenere? The flavor profile just does not go together IMHO. You would be better off with a CC Cab Sauv Grape Pack or just adding in some Tancor Grand Cru down the road if you need more mouthfeel, etc.



I believe one of the mods suggested using raisins. I wanted to use a Cab Sauv grape pack but George didn't have them and didn't know when they were coming in. I asked the forum for other sources but came up empty.


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## grapeman (Apr 17, 2011)

Most commercial wines are made without the use of sorbate so that shouldn't be a problem. If it is a red, chances are very high that no sorbate was used, so no problem.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 17, 2011)

grapeman said:


> Most commercial wines are made without the use of sorbate so that shouldn't be a problem. If it is a red, chances are very high that no sorbate was used, so no problem.



Ok so one more question Rich. I have two carboys going through mlf. If I need to top them up later, would I be able to use my own wine that I did add sorbate too?


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## grapeman (Apr 17, 2011)

I would not risk it using any wine that was treated with sorbate. I am not sure at what level it could affect the wine adversely. Not worth the risk in my opinion.


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## ibglowin (Apr 17, 2011)

That sounds like sound advice!


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## Runningwolf (Apr 17, 2011)

Thanks thats what I needed to hear.


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## Flem (Apr 17, 2011)

Does anyone else have any thoughts as to whether or not I should add rasins to the primary for the Carmenere juice bucket. I believe a couple of guys on the FVW forum thought it might be a good idea. I can't get Cab grape skins.


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## Wade E (Apr 17, 2011)

I dont do juices, I have had not so good results with them myself. Just dont feel the quality is there.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 17, 2011)

Mike I have not used them before but Tom does. I think folks are split on using them. If its just for mouth feel you can always get this by adding glycerine later on after fermentation if you think it needs it. Julie adds corn syrup sometimes for the same reason if she is going to sweeten it also.


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## ibglowin (Apr 17, 2011)

IMHO any grape pack would be better than raisins on this juice. FVW has Cab Sauv and Syrah grape packs. Looks like they are out of Cab Sauv ATM (back in stock late next week). But a Syrah with its pepper spice (Carmenere has a nice spice itself) would be 10x better than raisins. Raisins should only be used for Italian varietals IMHO. You will end up with a hint of raisin trust me.



Flem said:


> Does anyone else have any thoughts as to whether or not I should add rasins to the primary for the Carmenere juice bucket. I believe a couple of guys on the FVW forum thought it might be a good idea. I can't get Cab grape skins.


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