# Oak Stix experiment



## winemaker81 (Mar 3, 2021)

Last Saturday I've started an experiment using *Next Level Oak's* wine stix. @Mike - Next Level Oak and I got into a long discussion last fall, and that discussion culminated in me starting an oak experiment.

The premise is that I have 3 carboys of red wine, and each has one of Mike's wine stix (kits) in it -- American, French, and Hungarian oak, all with 1 medium toast and 1 medium plus toast piece. A 4th carboy has 2 oz medium toast Hungarian oak cubes. I will be testing the wines every 2 weeks (or so) to see progress. I anticipate the experiment will run for 3 to 4 months, and I may post updates months later, after the wines are bottled and aging.

Among my goals is to see how the oak stix compare to oak cubes, and to get a feel for how long I should leave them in the wine, and if there is any difference in duration between the different oaks. This also lets me compare apples-to-apples in deciding which oak(s) I will use in the future.

I calculated an average size for oak cubes, and the surface area of one of the stix is fairly close to the surface area for 2 oz of cubes, enough that I believe it's a fair experiment.

The results are being posted on my *web site*, and I will post summary notes here as well.

*Notes:*

Mike provided the kits to me, free of charge. In return I'm providing him with my complete notes, with the agreement that my results are what they are, the good, the bad, and the ugly. While I cannot foresee any problems that would not occur with other oak adjuncts, such as staves, spirals, cubes, and chips, I am keeping an open mind.

I do no advertising on my site, nor do I collect personal information. Traffic on my site provides me with no compensation of any form, nor is anyone else gaining from it.

As much as I try to keep the experiment as objective as possible, there is no way to keep subjectivity out. It just occurred to me to do double-bind tastings, so that no one tasting the wines has any foreknowledge which is which.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 22, 2021)

My plan was to taste at the 2 week mark, but I was busy all last weekend. My son found time yesterday to help me with the arduous task of tasting wine ...

I posted details on *my blog* for this experiment, but overall, none of the 4 batches have much oak character yet. However, we noted that each wine tasted a bit different AND the sensation of tannin was in different places on our tongues. We tasted in both directions, e.g., tasted wines 1 through 4 and then 4 through 1, to see if the order made any difference.

It didn't. It's far too soon to visualize what the end result will be. The plan is to taste again in 3 weeks.

*EDIT 1:* I appear to have lost all track of time. The wines sat for 4 weeks, not 3.

The difference in where on the tongue tannin was registered is intriguing. So far I can't say one is better than the other -- they're just different.

*EDIT 2:* I obviously can't read a calendar. I thought today was the 27th, not the 22nd. I could NOT figure out how I lost a week. I just don't drink that much!

It may be that I didn't have enough coffee in me when I posted ... today's entry in the testing log is at the 3 week mark.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 18, 2021)

We conducted our 2nd test yesterday -- with me were both my sons. The notes below are a combination of our reactions, which were very similiar.

A couple hours ahead, for each carboy I withdrew enough wine that I could use the powered stirring rod to mix the wine. Not enough to introduce air, but enough to ensure the carboy was homogenized. Then I replaced the sample.

During this process I compared samples of before and after stirring. With the Hungarian cubes, the difference was clear — the initial sample had a different taste the the stirred sample. For the stix? The difference was almost unnoticeable. Why are the cubes different? The cubes are at the bottom of the carboy and the sample came from the middle. For the stix the sample is taken from where the stix is, in the middle. The process of withdrawing the stix and then withdrawing enough wine to enable stirring appears to have mixed the wine.

Oak Cubes — Detected astringency on the top of the tongue, but not much oak character yet.

American Stix — Very little oak character and didn’t detect any astringency.

French Stix — Detected astringency in the gums, not the tongue. Had a slightly sour taste with respect to the other wines.

Hungarian Stix — Tasted a bit tart, but no more oak character than the other wines.

This test was a bit of a surprise. I expected more oak character from all the wines, but there didn’t seem to be much more than last time.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 18, 2021)

A good test,, thanks for the update.


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## Rembee (Apr 18, 2021)

I don't know how I missed this thread when you first posted it. This is a very interesting, well thought out, comprehensive test. I will be following along. Thanks for sharing it!


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## Johnd (Apr 19, 2021)

Haven’t used the Next Level product yet, but it looks similar in size to Wine Stix, which I’ve used extensively. It takes a solid three months to get all of the long grained tannins and oak flavor out of those, and one per carboy wasn’t enough, two was much more in order. I’m not surprised at your taste / thoughts at this point, the best is yet to come!!


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## winemaker81 (Apr 19, 2021)

The expected duration of the experiment is 5 to 6 months. From experience, cubes need about 4 months and are pretty much expended at 6 months. I'm expecting the stix to be the about the same, but realize that reality may differ from my expectations.

@Mike - Next Level Oak mentioned differences in the end grain of the wood between his product and spirals, so we may see a difference in duration because of that. Cubes have at least 2 faces with end grain, so that may result in faster leaching of oak character. If conditions merit it, I'll extend the experiment a couple of months.

I calculated the surface area of 2 oz cubes and a single oak stix "kit", and the kit has a surface area just a bit less than the cubes. *Note:* I used average values for sizes, so my calculation is an approximation, but IMO good enough for my purposes. If this was a rigorous scientific experiment, my calculations would be unacceptable, but I'm not publishing my results in a scientific journal, so I'm not fussed about it.

The description on *my web site* is long winded, although it's intended for a wide audience so I fleshed out the background, assumptions, and plans. I need to add my surface area calculations to be complete.


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## BarrelMonkey (Apr 20, 2021)

Always fun to see this kind of experiment! Do you taste blind? If not, it might be something to consider. 

(The scientist in me would also be interested to see a zero oak control, but I realize there are practical limits to the number of samples!)


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## winemaker81 (Apr 20, 2021)

We haven't done blind tasting yet. During tastings we are focusing on the taste & smell, and so far are being objective about it. The first tasting was an eye-opener, as the we consistently received the same sensation of astringency on same parts of the tongue. The second tasting was also a surprise, as we didn't get the same results. I have no clue what tasting #3 will bring.

If I had a 5th carboy, I'd have kept a control. As it is, I don't have topup wine, so I'm using a 1999 unoaked Malbec. Topup is only a few ounces per time, so it should not have perceptible impact.


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## winemaker81 (May 8, 2021)

We taste-tested again today. The oak flavors have improved, which makes sense at the 2.5 month mark. I'm not seeing any surprises.

Scroll to the bottom of *the post* for my notes.


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## Chuck Rairdan (May 9, 2021)

Im considering going to suspended wine sticks, wondering what effect cubes laying in the fine lees has not to mention you can readily pull the sticks when you've reached the desired oakiness. Curious to hear your results...


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## winemaker81 (May 9, 2021)

Chuck Rairdan said:


> Im considering going to suspended wine sticks, wondering what effect cubes laying in the fine lees has not to mention you can readily pull the sticks when you've reached the desired oakiness. Curious to hear your results...


I suspect the effect depends on how thick the fine lees is. If it's a dusting, probably nothing.

My take so far is that the stix will have the same effect as the cubes, but differences in surface area may increase the required duration to get the same effect. I suspect that while cubes are toasted on all sides, the stix are toasted "properly" on the outside, but may be less so inside the slots.

Having shaken 6 oz cubes out of a 54 liter barrel, I'm in favor of the stix, for ease of use. AFAIK the current product doesn't work with barrels due to the differences in carboy stopper vs. barrel bung, plus (depending on size) barrels need a lot more oak product than the stix, which are designed for 3 to 6 gallon carboys. However, @Mike - Next Level Oak is currently working on a product that will work for barrels. His design is innovative and should work fine. It's likely I'll be using the new product in my 2021 wines.


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## Chuck Rairdan (May 11, 2021)

The lees are pretty light in this case and I do monthly batonnage during aging. This seems to help keep the reductives down, consumes dissolved O2, breaks up stratification (especially with the oak cubes sitting on the bottom), and likely improves mouthfeel. Wondering if the oak contact with the lees has some chemistry benefits as well, but also like the convenience and suspension of the sticks and curls. Love these studies/experiments that you and others are doing...


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## winemaker81 (May 11, 2021)

I hadn't thought about it, but I'm practicing batonnage as well, as I gently stir the barrel, withdraw a tasting sample, then topup.

In my case, I racked the barrels after 3.75 months, so most (if not all) fine lees is gone. I'm stirring monthly during topup for 6 months, then will avoid stirring until bottling time (3 months), to let any stirred up sediment drop. At this point I may not have any lees; after stirring the wine looks really clear.

As I noted, my experiment carboys are being stirred prior to tasting to ensure they are homogeneous. When the test ends (end of August) I'll rack and verify no sediment (can't see any now) and will bottle before the end of September. New grapes arrive middle of October and I want everything from 2020 except the barrels bottled by then.


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## Chuck Rairdan (May 12, 2021)

Many similarities in our wine making processes. Haven't gone to barrels yet due to the storage and maintenance, perhaps down the stretch


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## winemaker81 (May 12, 2021)

Chuck Rairdan said:


> Many similarities in our wine making processes. Haven't gone to barrels yet due to the storage and maintenance, perhaps down the stretch


Barrels are expensive in several ways, but the results are worth it.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 5, 2021)

Today's tasting of the 4 wines proved interesting in that there were no real surprises. All 4 wines are developing nicely, but all are distinctly different. My original intention was to blend them after the experiment, but we are thinking otherwise.

The surprise winner today is the Hungarian stix, followed by the Hungarian cubes, French stix, and American stix. The order of our preference changes at each tasting. Well, all wines are quite green, less than 8 months old, and continuing to change rapidly.





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Oak Stix Experiment – Bryan's Wine & Beer Making Site







wine.bkfazekas.com


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## Bmd2k1 (Jun 11, 2021)

Great experiment & info...thanks!

Curious how the Stix compare to the Infusion Spirals -- which I'm using in my reds currently, during bulk aging.

Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (Jun 13, 2021)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Curious how the Stix compare to the Infusion Spirals -- which I'm using in my reds currently, during bulk aging.


At this point my opinion is that oak is oak. If you purchase an oak adjunct product where the oak is properly aged and toasted, you will get expected results. I'm getting similar enough results from the 4 containers that the biggest difference is the oak type, e.g., American vs. French vs. Hungarian.

The first few tastings were oddly different, but I suspect that is related to how the oak character diffuses into the wine. The real differences are price and convenience. The price for Next Level Oak's product appears to be comparable to spirals and staves. Oak cubes are cheaper and chips cheaper yet.

NLO's product wins for convenience. To execute this experiment I sanitize a clean 2 gallon fermenter, remove the bug + oak and place in the bucket. Then I withdraw a sample, top up, and replace the bung + oak. With my son's help, it takes about a minute.

Staves and spirals need a segment of nylon fishing line (or similar material) trapped between the stopper and the carboy to make it possible to easily retrieve the product. Cubes and chips? Gotta rack the carboy to get them out.

It's a judgment call -- what works best for you.


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## Bmd2k1 (Jun 13, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> At this point my opinion is that oak is oak. If you purchase an oak adjunct product where the oak is properly aged and toasted, you will get expected results. I'm getting similar enough results from the 4 containers that the biggest difference is the oak type, e.g., American vs. French vs. Hungarian.
> 
> The first few tastings were oddly different, but I suspect that is related to how the oak character diffuses into the wine. The real differences are price and convenience. The price for Next Level Oak's product appears to be comparable to spirals and staves. Oak cubes are cheaper and chips cheaper yet.
> 
> ...


Have ya determined which Oak type and toast you prefer in which Reds?


Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (Jun 13, 2021)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Have ya determined which Oak type and toast you prefer in which Reds?


I'm using Hungarian cubes in neutral barrels, and the Hungarian (cubes & stix) is the current winner is the experimental carboys.

Last fall I experimented with American vs. French fermentation oak, in 2 identical Merlot batches. I preferred the fruit the American produced -- the French was a bit sour. It tasted good (for a totally green wine) but I liked the American better.

Next fall I plan to use American for fermentation and Hungarian for bulk aging in neutral barrels, and in carboys.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 5, 2021)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Have ya determined which Oak type and toast you prefer in which Reds?


Overall, Hungarian medium toast. However, there is no "this is what I want 100% of the time". Some grapes seem to intermix better with different oaks. Also, I'm using medium toast cubes and a mix of medium/medium plus in the oak stix. It's not 100% equal comparison, something I did not realize until now.

I'm planning to purchase American medium toast AND heavy toast for the fall. I'm considering further oak experiments next year -- if I have 4 carboys of 2nd run, doing one with Hungarian medium toast, one with American medium toast, one with Hungarian medium toast + American heavy toast, and the last with American medium toast + American heavy toast. I'm doing most testing with 2nd run wines, so if a carboy turns out badly, I've lost very little monetarily.

EDIT: while this appears to be a duplication of my previous post, yesterday's tasting made me consider more factors.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 5, 2021)

Yesterday's tasting was a surprise, and not a good one.

All 4 carboys tasted "lesser" than the previous tasting a month before. If they tasted like this all along, I'd be extremely disappointed.

I went into more detail in my update to the *Oak Stix Experiment* post (scroll to the bottom), but the short answer is that I believe that all 4 carboys are at a down point in the life cycle. The 4 carboys are the same wine, but with different oaks -- they all seem to have "declined" at the same time (well, they are the same wine), but the tastes are different, which makes sense as they contain different oak adjuncts.

_I do not believe there are any real problems with the wines._

We'll taste again in 3 or 4 weeks. If my supposition is correct, the wines will taste more like they did a month ago.

Yesterday my son & I discussed combining the carboys before bottling, but I've decided against this. I haven't discussed it with him yet, but will do so this afternoon when we bottle his wine. I'm not going to get disagreement, as he's enjoying this as much as I am. 

This experiment needs to extend beyond bottling -- so I intend to bottle them separately and continue tastings every 3 months for at least a year, post bottling.

This experiment began as a testing of @Mike - Next Level Oak's product, it's grown beyond that and is worth continuing to its logical conclusion.


At this point I am very satisfied with Mike's product. The comparison between the Hungarian oak cubes and oak stix is fairly close, and differences are explained by the oak grown in different forests. When all is done I may prefer one over the other in direct comparison, but either wine is pleasing.

Removing the oak from the 3 carboys containing the oak stix is literally just pulling the stopper + oak stix out, topping up, and inserted a vented bung. For the oak cubes? I have to rack the wine off the cubes, then rack back into a carboy, topup, and insert a vented bung. The oak stix win, hands down, on the "convenience" ticket.

Currently I'm planning to end Phase 1 (oak) around the beginning of September. We'll let the carboys rest, undisturbed for 4 to 6 weeks, then bottle. I'd like to bottle before my new CA grapes arrive in mid-October, but we'll have to see how that works out.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 30, 2021)

For numerous reasons, the planned tasting for early August didn't happen. Nothing bad, just that life happens and other things take priority.

Tonight I tasted the wines solo, so the notes are just mine.

WOW! All 4 wines are totally different from 7 weeks ago. I figured last tasting was a downturn in the cycle, and this tasting proves. it. I am very pleased with all 4 wines. And yes, which is "best" has changed again.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 26, 2021)

My son & I conducted our final tasting today, and the results were similar to my last (solo) tasting. I've written my *conclusions* to the experiment, in a new section at the end of the post.

*Experiment Goals*

Determine the duration required to impart a pleasing oak character to each wine
Compare the results between the test samples to see how the oak stix compare to the cubes
Determine if there is a different in the best duration for each of the oak stix types
Determine which sample(s) I like better, to help determine what type(s) of oak I'll use in the future
The results are:

*1. *This is a difficult one to judge, as folks have their own thresholds and likes in oak character. In re-reading our tasting results, it appears that most oak character was imparted by the end of the 4th month. Changes in the wine after that are the effects of bulk aging.

*2. *During the test, there were numerous differences between the batches, but after re-reading the tasting notes, my assessment is that the four batches are equivalent, e.g., I'd equate 1 wine stix kit to 2 oz medium toast oak cubes.

*3. *My assessment is that there was no significant difference in the best duration for any of the samples. This makes sense, given that the result of Goal #2 is that the kits are equivalent to 2 oz oak cubes.

*4. *This personal goal is what I expected. Previous taste tests of other wines led me towards Hungarian oak, and this test confirmed it. This is a personal preference so it may not help anyone else.

*Additional Conclusion - *The many changes in the wines during the test period was a surprise, as the wines all changed in different ways and at different times. Yet the final result was that each is equivalent, allowing for differences in oak character.


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## Bmd2k1 (Jan 21, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> My son & I conducted our final tasting today, and the results were similar to my last (solo) tasting. I've written my *conclusions* to the experiment, in a new section at the end of the post.
> 
> *Experiment Goals*
> 
> ...


Any additional oaking experiments planned? 

Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (Jan 21, 2022)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Any additional oaking experiments planned?


Nothing firm. I considered 3 carboys of the same wine using Hungarian cubes -- one with medium toast, one with dark toast, and one with half-n-half. I've never used dark toast oak, and it would be interesting to see the differences.

One constraining factor is that my primary focus is keeping a pair of 54 liter barrels full. I have a 5 year plan to not make the same blend twice, so that I always have a variety. Depending on what grapes are available to me, this could be difficult to manage.

All experiments (and I love experiments) have to work around that. This experiment worked out as I had 4 carboys of 2nd run wine. My 2021's are FWK, so there's no 2nd run to play with. I had considered purchasing 3 FWK Forte kits -- make one with 2 week fermentation, one with 4 week, and one with 6 week. It seems everyone is crazy about EM -- let's compare apples-to-apples to find out what it does.

It just occurred to me that I could ferment and clear the 3 batches, and reserve 4 liters of each for testing. The remainder of the 3 batches would go into the barrel. I'd need extra top up (15 gallons for a year in a 14.25 isn't quite enough), but I have enough other wine lying around and don't fret about mixing an odd bottle of something else into the barrel. We'll have to see ....

My 2020's are Meritage blends -- #1: 66.7% Merlot, 33.3% Vinifera Blend and #2: 40% Merlot, 40% Zinfandel, 20% Vinifera Blend. I reserved 5 bottles each of the Merlot, Zinfandel, Vinifera Blend, and unoaked samples of #1 and #2. Next fall I intend to taste test all 7 wines to see what the differences are. Since I have 5 bottles of each, the plan is to do the tasting annually 4 more times. This is also a good test of the aging of the Select 900 series Nomacorcs.

Check back with me in 6 years for the results!


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## ChuckD (Jan 21, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Nothing firm. I considered 3 carboys of the same wine using Hungarian cubes -- one with medium toast, one with dark toast, and one with half-n-half. I've never used dark toast oak, and it would be interesting to see the differences.
> 
> One constraining factor is that my primary focus is keeping a pair of 54 liter barrels full. I have a 5 year plan to not make the same blend twice, so that I always have a variety. Depending on what grapes are available to me, this could be difficult to manage.
> 
> ...


I have always likes science but it’s even better when you are REQUIRED to drink wine!


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## winemaker81 (Jan 21, 2022)

I have folks lining up to help with next fall's testing! 

My wife believes I have far too many wine glasses, and I gave each of my sons half a dozen when they moved out. To be fair, I rarely use more than a handful. But if we're tasting 7 wine? For 6 people I need 42 glasses ...


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## Bmd2k1 (Apr 10, 2022)

I'm curious re: your perceived differences and pluses/minuses between Hungarian vs French vs American oak? (I realize this is a subjective thing re: taste - but I'm hoping to garner some additional insights on this topic.)

So far I have only used American Oak spirals (1x per 6gal) of various toast levels in my bulk agings.

Thanks in advance & Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (Apr 10, 2022)

Bmd2k1 said:


> I'm curious re: your perceived differences and pluses/minuses between Hungarian vs French vs American oak? (I realize this is a subjective thing re: taste - but I'm hoping to garner some additional insights on this topic.)


Read my tasting notes from the experiment, as the flow from tasting to tasting will explain a lot.





__





Oak Stix Experiment – Bryan's Wine & Beer Making Site







wine.bkfazekas.com





My summary? American oak produces a fruitier wine. French imparts a bit of sourness. Hungarian is in between. Overall I prefer Hungarian, but am certain to experiment with all 3.

The 2020 Meritage I made used American and French medium toast shredded oak for fermentation oak. While what I read said the variety of fermentation oak doesn't matter, immediately after pressing I found that for the Merlot, the results matched my above statement (American fruity, French sour). However, the flavors muted later on and I blended the wines, so I don't know the long term result. I had planned to save 4 liter of each for later comparison, but messed up and blended them.


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## Bmd2k1 (Apr 10, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Read my tasting notes from the experiment, as the flow from tasting to tasting will explain a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! Will give it a look see ✌


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## tullamore (Apr 10, 2022)

i've never been a fan of oak chips ,spirals, chunks - u can so so easily get over oaked in a short period of time - IMO -mentioned this in one of my earlier posts
- i aways used barrels - mine are all neutral which is great cause my wine sits in for 1.5-2 years - a neutral barrel will soften tannins, gets the fruit quality and still gets a little oak - not much - but i don't want much - i want to taste the fruit - not the oak monster
too much oak u r hiding the wine - a lot of commercial wineries will do that - blast an oak bomb cause something went wrong
what i say to the home wine makers get an oak barrel if u can -start with a small - u have much more control with the outcome
as for what oak - ?????? this the debate that will be going on for 100's of years
this is my 2 cents - been making wine - all from grapes for 34 years 
zin, petit sirah, spanish wine - american oak
chard, bordeaux blends - french oak
italian wines- hungarian 
yet again i made a great cans sav/merot blend in america oak
no right or wrong - but this i know a barrel makes a huge difference in the end product


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## tullamore (Apr 10, 2022)

forgot mention - barrels, chips, staves, etc....- can only take ur wine to a certain plateau
the big difference to making a good drinkable wine to a great/excellant wine -is the wine maker's experience - and the quality of the grape


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## Bmd2k1 (Aug 3, 2022)

@winemaker81 Any planned new oaking experiments on taps??


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## winemaker81 (Aug 3, 2022)

Bmd2k1 said:


> @winemaker81 Any planned new oaking experiments on taps??


I have nothing in mind in the oak dept.

However, I do have some blending ideas. I've been making field blends due to capacity constraints, using a total of 8 lugs to make wine for each 54 liter barrel. Instead of making field blends, I'm considering purchasing eight lugs of a varietal for each barrel, and buying three lugs of blending grapes to make a 23 liter carboy. At bottling time, the idea is to blend some of the carboy into the barrel wines. My current thoughts:

Barrel 1: Tempranillo. My son wants to make Tempranillo this year, and I'm good with that.

Barrel 2: Grenache or Sangiovese. I'd prefer to make Grenache for a Southern Rhone blend, but that will depend on availability.

Carboy: 1 lug each of Syrah, Petit Verdot, and Mourvedre. These will be aged unoaked, and used to make blends with the above, ranging from 5% to 25% of the carboy wine. I'm thinking we'll bench test 5 versions of each (5, 10, 15, 20, 25%) blind to see what everyone likes.

Another idea is to make a non-standard 2nd run wine. I'm considering purchasing 3 FWK Tavola kits, and add the pomace from each batch to a kit in lieu of skin packs. The idea of making all Merlot to see how different the 3 batches turn out due to the different types of pomace.


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