# 2020 Fall Grape Season Coming Up



## jgmann67

It’s only Feb 29th, I know... And, Spring grapes are a big deal too, I get it. But, I’m getting antsy for Fall 2020 grapes from the West Coast. 

Not sure what I’ll put into the mix this year. So far, I’ve made:

A Petite Sirah and a PS- Zin blend
A three grape meritage. 
An OVZ
A Cab-Syrah field blend. 

Feeling the need for a something extra for my fifth year of wine from grapes. Lucky I have 5-6 months to think about it.


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## Boatboy24

You need ample quantity to sufficiently break in that new press. A barrel might be in order too.


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## mainshipfred

I could possibly have a source for a ton of Tannat if I act fast enough but it's to much for me alone. Tannat is a big, bold high tannic wine that does well in Virginia even though there is not a lot extra planted. Most vineyards keep it for themselves. The cost by the ton was under a dollar per pound.


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I could possibly have a source for a ton of Tannat if I act fast enough but it's to much for me alone. Tannat is a big, bold high tannic wine that does well in Virginia even though there is not a lot extra planted. Most vineyards keep it for themselves. The cost by the ton was under a dollar per pound.



I read up on the flavor profile - sounds like its right in my wheelhouse of wines - plum, licorice, dark chocolate, smoke... all good. 

High acid, high tannin - kinda like a petite sirah. 

I will need to sample a Virginia tannat wine to know for sure. Recommend any in particular?


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## mainshipfred

My first Virginia Tannat was 2019. At crush it had a pH of 3.39 and 24 brix. I made no adjustments at crush and post MLF is 3.45. As far as buying a VA Tannat you will probably have to order it from a winery. I can recommend Effingham Manor 2017, Chrysalis 2016 but although a bit pricey the 2008 is fabulous and although I never had the Horton 2016 all their other wines are very good and they are the most reasonably priced. If you just wanted to get a general sense of the wine I would imagine a Cali or French would be easier to find.


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> My first Virginia Tannat was 2019. At crush it had a pH of 3.39 and 24 brix. I made no adjustments at crush and post MLF is 3.45. As far as buying a VA Tannat you will probably have to order it from a winery. I can recommend Effingham Manor 2017, Chrysalis 2016 but although a bit pricey the 2008 is fabulous and although I never had the Horton 2016 all their other wines are very good and they are the most reasonably priced. If you just wanted to get a general sense of the wine I would imagine a Cali or French would be easier to find.



Okay. I looked online with the People’s Republic Wine and Spirits Store in PA... nothing in stock anywhere near me.


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## jgmann67

A related question... What makes the most reliably good field blended wine?

I ask because I did the 50-50 Cab-Syrah field blend last year and it was flawlessly easy and shows promise to be a fantastic wine. I'm reading up on how some winemakers in Virginia do a field blend of Tannat, Malbec and Cab Franc. That's very interesting to me.


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## mainshipfred

Can't help you with that. I don't think the commercial guys I know do much field blending. Does it list the wineries?


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## cmason1957

Field blending takes some guesswork. I have done it the past two Chilean season, and last year California season. I try to stick with things that, looking at the taste profiles seem like they might go well together. Cab Sauv, Merlot, Zinfandel, Sryah, Malbec are some I think you can blend together and get a good tasting outcome. I often will do equal parts of all. I am thinking this year Chilean to do 2 Merlot, 1 Cab Sauv, 1 Sangiovase, sort of a Super Tuscan. I may swap the Merlot and Cab Sauv.


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## Chuck E

My 2019 Chilean Carménère + Malbec (50/50) is really tasting nice, but I am gonna give it more time in the bottle. 20% Syrah plus anything else seems to go pretty well too.


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Can't help you with that. I don't think the commercial guys I know do much field blending. Does it list the wineries?



No. I didn't notice any names of wineries. Now looking to see if I can find that article I was reading...


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## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> Field blending takes some guesswork. I have done it the past two Chilean season, and last year California season. I try to stick with things that, looking at the taste profiles seem like they might go well together. Cab Sauv, Merlot, Zinfandel, Sryah, Malbec are some I think you can blend together and get a good tasting outcome. I often will do equal parts of all. I am thinking this year Chilean to do 2 Merlot, 1 Cab Sauv, 1 Sangiovase, sort of a Super Tuscan. I may swap the Merlot and Cab Sauv.



I was actually thinking of a California Tuscan style wine, too. Maybe in a 2 Sangio, 1 merlot, 2 Cab, combo.


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## cmason1957

jgmann67 said:


> I was actually thinking of a California Tuscan style wine, too. Maybe in a 2 Sangio, 1 merlot, 2 Cab, combo.


The nice thing about California Super Tuscan is anything goes. I have also thought about adding a little bit of some white in there, just not sure what. And I'm open to ideas.


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## Boatboy24

cmason1957 said:


> The nice thing about California Super Tuscan is anything goes. I have also thought about adding a little bit of some white in there, just not sure what. And I'm open to ideas.



Viognier? 5% or less. I'd go with 2-3%.


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## sour_grapes

IIRC, Malvasia Bianca is/was the traditional (required) white as part of the Chianti DOC rules before they were amended.


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## Ajmassa

My ‘17 Tuscan field blend was:
4 lugs Sangiovese 
2 cab
2 merlot

Not much insight to offer though. Was my 1st larger all-grape batch workin solo. Fruit wasnt great. Sangio was super light too. And I made a lot of mistakes. Learned a lot tho. I didn’t adjust the must. Stuck around 1.003. Killed myself trying to restart. Never got it below 1.000. Heavy hand on tartaric. Overdid the k-bicarb. 
Still in bulk. One day I might try something. Or maybe age will do it for me. 
not very ideal conditions for a noob. Started off behind the 8ball. 
I’d like another shot at a Tuscan one day. With healthy fruit. And I’d also use less sangio.


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## Ignoble Grape

jgmann67 said:


> It’s only Feb 29th, I know... And, Spring grapes are a big deal too, I get it. But, I’m getting antsy for Fall 2020 grapes from the West Coast.
> 
> Not sure what I’ll put into the mix this year. So far, I’ve made:
> 
> A Petite Sirah and a PS- Zin blend
> A three grape meritage.
> An OVZ
> A Cab-Syrah field blend.
> 
> Feeling the need for a something extra for my fifth year of wine from grapes. Lucky I have 5-6 months to think about it.


Equally as important is yeast selection. I feel like a gardner with the seed catalog. Looking through flavors and profile charts. Can easily kill a Saturday afternoon.


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## cmason1957

Ignoble Grape said:


> Equally as important is yeast selection. I feel like a gardner with the seed catalog. Looking through flavors and profile charts. Can easily kill a Saturday afternoon.


By golly, that is the truth. So many years, so many choices. I am thinking BM45 or bm4x4 for my mixture (Merlot, cab sauv, and sangiovese)


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## jgmann67

So much in the world has gone sideways, I'm really hoping to have access to decent grapes this year (that's not coming from anywhere other than my own paranoia). We're into the summer now and it's time to downshift on my kit wine making... I have a SLM, a Three Moons Cab, a Forza and two Luna Bianca's all in progress right now, and just bottled two other batches of kit wine. So, everything that goes into the wine fund from now until September will be dedicated to wine-from-grapes. If I'm doing my math right, that will be enough for 15-20 gallons of finished wine, depending on quality. 

I'm still undecided as to what I want to do, except:

a. A field blend was very easy last year. So, a California "Super Tuscan" blend of Sangio, Cab and Merlot, holds a lot of appeal for me - simplifies yeast and MLB selections, too.
b. Doing a single varietal, or two singles, is also appealing but there is added expense.....


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## Chuck E

I will be doing Zinfandel or Primitivo, Chardonnay, and Merlot. I would like to turn some of the Zin into rosé, using the Saignée method. I hope to make about 8-10 cases total.


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## mainshipfred

I'll be doing a Zinfandel and Touriga from Cali but everything else will be local. More than likely a Voignier and Petit Manseng for whites but might sub a Vidal Blanc or Albarino for one of them. Those will be 6 - 8 gallon batches. For reds I'm going to make less varietals but larger quantities of Norton, Tannat, and Petit Verdot, thinking 20+ gallons of each. If I can get my hands on some Cab Franc or Nebbiollo I might do that as well. I already have 14 or so gallons of Cab and Shiraz from spring.


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## Boatboy24

Assuming I'm gainfully employed, I'm leaning in a similar direction to Fred. Will probably do another 'double' batch of Zin/Petite Sirah field blend. In fact, my 2019 version of that needs to come out of the barrel and be replaced with my Touriga. For my second red, I'm not sure yet. And if I can mooch off of Fred's connection again, I'll probably do local Viognier and Petite Manseng again.


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## CDrew

I feel like planning is virtually impossible! There is no way to know when grapes will be ripe, what grapes will be available and what my schedule will look like! With that said, I have goals, rather than plans. Plans will need to wait a few years until I semi-retire.

I honestly think most "Field Blends" these days are a myth. They are fermented separately and then blended. The one notable exception I know is the Lytton Springs vineyard at Ridge. That vineyard has numerous red grapes (Zinfandel, Petite Syrah, Carignan, alicante, mourvedre) all randomly planted in the same field and harvested at the same time.

For 2020 my goals are: (aiming for 60 gallon total production plus or minus)
Primitivo/Zinfandel-This will be my 4th year making grapes from this vineyard and since it belongs to a friend, there's always a friendly wine competition on pick day.
Cabernet Franc-This will be a new one for me, but @NorCal is managing the purchase and I'm hoping to buy 1/2 ton (split with 2 other wine makers).
Sauvignon Blanc-This is a request from my wife, no source of grapes yet, but working on it. White wine is new territory for me.
Syrah-A maybe this year, but since I have vintages from '18 and '19, I'd like to keep the vertical going.

Wish list for 2020-
Barbera-One of my favorite food wines
Rose-Was fun and tasty 2019-
I'll be opportunistic depending on what is available in September and October. 

Good luck everyone!


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## The Dutchman

My plans for this fall are:

6 gallons of Noble Muscadine. I know not everyone is a fan of muscadines, but I have made some really good dry versions of it in the last years.
This year will be the first time I adjust acidity downward for it, to see what that does to this variety.

6 gallons of Noble Muscadine Rose. Got to press it as fast as possible because the muscadine skins will give of their color really fast.

6 Gallons of Tempranillo. Getting 4 lugs and do 1 lug Saignee method, then add those skins to the rest.

6 gallons of syrah. Same as the tempranillo do 4 lugs.

6 gallons of Muscat juice. Was very happy with last year, so I will make it again.

6 gallons of Chenin Blanc juice.

and 30 to 34 gallons of a red blend consisting of 3 buckets of Sangiovese, 2 buckets of Syrah, and 2 lugs of Carignan.
And to that, I will add all the Syrah and Tempranillo skins after I press those, so I can do an extended maceration of about a week to 10 days on those skins.

Also not necessarily trying to promote my business, but I got set up to be a local distributor for F Colavita & Son this year in Northwest Arkansas. 
Just throwing it out there because last year there was no distributor for this entire region, so if there are people in this area wanting grapes or juice, feel free to reach out to me.


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## Ignoble Grape

Went to visit the grower last weekend. First outing in 3 months. Cabernet all the way!

The plan so far:

500 lbs Cab Sav. I'll be breaking this into 3 batches: 2 for me to play with yeast, 1 for The Girl. She's going to be in charge of making her own wine since she's stuck at home from college this semester. It will be ready for the big 2-1. 
400 lbs of Merlot - Standard.
200 lbs of Petite Verdot. 
I have to say, I'm really happy I have a hobby through all of this.


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## CDrew

You know it’s serious now!

Time to get yeast for this year so I went down to Lodi Wine Labs. They had fully restocked the central table with this year's yeast. 500gm packages of almost every yeast ever mentioned here on the forum. So I got 500gm of fresh Avante but still have about 50-60gm of last year's which I am going to see if it survived and can still be used. Really starting to look forward to fall and wine making as it's a beacon of hope in this COVID trainwreck.

Also heard yesterday that both the Primitivo and Syrah vineyards are in great shape and a good harvest is anticipated.

So wishing everyone the best wine season which will start for some in August and for me in September.


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## Johnd

I'm really on the fence about winemaking this year. I've got a full 60 from 18 ready to bottle this fall, plus a 60 and a 30 from 19, and still have three carboys of wine left from 19 that I've yet to do anything with. Think I might just do a small batch, enough to add to the 18 gallons I have to fill up the 60 that'll empty in the fall. Some sort of blend, I've got 12 gallons of cab and 6 of petit verdot. Should be able to make a go with that............


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## CDrew

Johnd said:


> I'm really on the fence about winemaking this year. I've got a full 60 from 18 ready to bottle this fall, plus a 60 and a 30 from 19, and still have three carboys of wine left from 19 that I've yet to do anything with. Think I might just do a small batch, enough to add to the 18 gallons I have to fill up the 60 that'll empty in the fall. Some sort of blend, I've got 12 gallons of cab and 6 of petit verdot. Should be able to make a go with that............



But...You need to keep your West Coast pipeline running smoothly! My vote-do at least a 60 gallon barrel worth! Your future self will thank you.


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## mainshipfred

I keep wondering if wineries will make the same quantity of wine they previously made this year. I know, at least in my area, the wineries were struggling with sales and probably have more inventory than normal. I guess it depends on how much storage they have. I see it being excess grapes at a reduced rate or elevated prices to make up for the lost revenue. Will know soon!


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## Johnd

CDrew said:


> But...You need to keep your West Coast pipeline running smoothly! My vote-do at least a 60 gallon barrel worth! Your future self will thank you.



Actually, the owner of the winery where I have my grapes delivered offered to let me buy grapes with him from Oregon and Washington. I believe the quality will be a step up from my Lodi source, so I’ll probably be taking the year off from them anyway. No worries there, they’re second generation and won’t be going away any time soon.


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## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Actually, the owner of the winery where I have my grapes delivered offered to let me buy grapes with him from Oregon and Washington. I believe the quality will be a step up from my Lodi source, so I’ll probably be taking the year off from them anyway. No worries there, they’re second generation and won’t be going away any time soon.



I remember you feeling differently and maybe it's the supplier I get my grapes from but I have never been very keen on the Lodi grapes. I have a 2018 Washington Cab Franc that the grapes were shipped to a local winery the day they were harvested that is very nice. It's also my understanding Oregon has a nice climate for Pinot Noir.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> It's also my understanding Oregon has a nice climate for Pinot Noir.



It’s my understanding that if ya get grapes from Oregon and they are NOT Pinot then you are a crazy! 
If Washington? I’m doin Cab all day
Hard not to go with a regions go-to varietal. That’s exactly why I’ve done the Malbec from South America twice now.

my fall plan still wide open. Though a Washington Cab does sound very appealing


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## CDrew

Not that it will sway you guys, but I just got back from a road trip to Eastern Washington and they are making some great wine there. It's a little expensive and I went over the usual wine budget, but despite the COVID precautions everywhere we had an excellent time. And it isn't just cab. Great barbera, terrific Syrah(L'Ecole) at several places and really nice cabs at Canvas Back. Even had some very nice( bought a case) Sangiovese at Reininger Anyway, I can recommend Walla Walla and the Columbia River AVA as a surprisingly nice wine growing area. I didn't have a single Pinot. Lol.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> It’s my understanding that if ya get grapes from Oregon and they are NOT Pinot then you are a crazy!
> If Washington? I’m doin Cab all day
> Hard not to go with a regions go-to varietal. That’s exactly why I’ve done the Malbec from South America twice now.
> 
> my fall plan still wide open. Though a Washington Cab does sound very appealing



Chili is also gaining popularity with their Pinot. I have a 19 that is a little hotter (I made no adjustments) and darker than you would expect from a Pinot but I would put the nose and palate against any I've had, especially for a young wine.


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## mainshipfred

CDrew said:


> Not that it will sway you guys, but I just got back from a road trip to Eastern Washington and they are making some great wine there. It's a little expensive and I went over the usual wine budget, but despite the COVID precautions everywhere we had an excellent time. And it isn't just cab. Great barbera, terrific Syrah(L'Ecole) at several places and really nice cabs at Canvas Back. Even had some very nice( bought a case) Sangiovese at Reininger Anyway, I can recommend Walla Walla and the Columbia River AVA as a surprisingly nice wine growing area. I didn't have a single Pinot. Lol.



Mine came from Horse Haven Hills AVA and paid $2.00 per lb so they were expensive grapes.


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## CDrew

HHH, Red Mountain, the Rocks (actually Oregon) lots of great little AVAs.

Unfortunately they are charging close to Sonoma prices but at least are doing a great job with the wine. I already want another visit.


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## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> I remember you feeling differently and maybe it's the supplier I get my grapes from but I have never been very keen on the Lodi grapes. I have a 2018 Washington Cab Franc that the grapes were shipped to a local winery the day they were harvested that is very nice. It's also my understanding Oregon has a nice climate for Pinot Noir.



I‘ve been pretty satisfied with the Lodi haul thus far, especially when considering that they’re under $1.00 per pound sitting in my truck in Louisiana. There are lots of solid red varietals from the northern reaches, cabs, cab franc, just gotta be from areas where they can ripen sufficiently. Can’t forget about Syrah, there are world class syrahs from up there, big and bold as you please. I’m kind of excited to see what he’ll have to choose from, I’m supposed to call him in August to talk about the selections.


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## GR!

mainshipfred said:


> I keep wondering if wineries will make the same quantity of wine they previously made this year. I know, at least in my area, the wineries were struggling with sales and probably have more inventory than normal. I guess it depends on how much storage they have. I see it being excess grapes at a reduced rate or elevated prices to make up for the lost revenue. Will know soon!


 Where do you get your VA grapes from?


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## CDrew

We should have a whole discussion about Syrah. Such good wine. Maybe better than Cabernet. Grows so well in Northern California, and apparently eastern Washington. I have not been a huge fan of the Australian Shiraz but that's just me. My own Syrah the last 2 years has been fun and so far, great.

@Johnd We went to Cayuse. Great winery. Expensive but very good. Everyone needs a visit to Walla Walla.


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## Johnd

CDrew said:


> We should have a whole discussion about Syrah. Such good wine. Maybe better than Cabernet. Grows so well in Northern California, and apparently eastern Washington. I have not been a huge fan of the Australian Shiraz but that's just me. My own Syrah the last 2 years has been fun and so far, great.
> 
> @Johnd We went to Cayuse. Great winery. Expensive but very good. Everyone needs a visit to Walla Walla.



Definitely on my list when I get up that way. Was supposed to go up to the corner this year for a week in April, the Covid took care of that plan.


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## CDrew

Johnd said:


> Definitely on my list when I get up that way. Was supposed to go up to the corner this year for a week in April, the Covid took care of that plan.



It was a good surprise to me. We were up there for a wedding, and had a great time in Walla Walla. The wineries are being very careful about the COVID-19 restrictions. You have to have a reservation at each place, but the reservations can be obtained at the door. It seemed safe and OK to me. But we could drive, so understood that it's difficult from back east. I hope you get there when this COVID thing is over.


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## Ajmassa

with a handful of local suppliers close by I’m lucky enough to have many different options 

All kinds of lodi grapes, Amador gold, Suisun valley fruit-Lanza. LMP, Tenbrink, Koch Ranch
Pricey cab from Sonoma called ‘Dundsen Vineyard’. Also Paso Robles grapes.
El Dorado County in Sierra Foothills
Wash St Rattlesnake hills. Also can get Red Mountain

The biggest problem I face is wanting to get the best quality fruit I can get but I honestly just don’t know enough about all this. —The AVAs. What types of seasons means for diff things—
And nobody’s gonna tell ya the quality came in crappy this year for their product. I might just as well put on a blindfold and throw a dart against the wall


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## Johnd

CDrew said:


> It was a good surprise to me. We were up there for a wedding, and had a great time in Walla Walla. The wineries are being very careful about the COVID-19 restrictions. You have to have a reservation at each place, but the reservations can be obtained at the door. It seemed safe and OK to me. But we could drive, so understood that it's difficult from back east. I hope you get there when this COVID thing is over.



Early on, Seattle was a Covid war zone, and there was no way in hell I was getting into a contaminated sheet metal tube for 3 hours. Still kinda feel that way about flying......


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## Boatboy24

Johnd said:


> Actually, the owner of the winery where I have my grapes delivered offered to let me buy grapes with him from Oregon and Washington. I believe the quality will be a step up from my Lodi source, so I’ll probably be taking the year off from them anyway. No worries there, they’re second generation and won’t be going away any time soon.



I'd be curious to know how expensive they are. In my limited experience, WA grapes do not come cheap.


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I'd be curious to know how expensive they are. In my limited experience, WA grapes do not come cheap.


I'll certainly be happy to share the information when I get it. It'll be interesting to see what he's going to have access to this year. I know he typically has 3 tractor trailer loads of grapes delivered from the west coast, so the quantity is there for pricing advantages.


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## GR!

Ajmassa said:


> with a handful of local suppliers close by I’m lucky enough to have many different options
> 
> All kinds of lodi grapes, Amador gold, Suisun valley fruit-Lanza. LMP, Tenbrink, Koch Ranch
> Pricey cab from Sonoma called ‘Dundsen Vineyard’. Also Paso Robles grapes.
> El Dorado County in Sierra Foothills
> Wash St Rattlesnake hills. Also can get Red Mountain
> 
> The biggest problem I face is wanting to get the best quality fruit I can get but I honestly just don’t know enough about all this. —The AVAs. What types of seasons means for diff things—
> And nobody’s gonna tell ya the quality came in crappy this year for their product. I might just as well put on a blindfold and throw a dart against the wall



Where do you source your grapes from? In the past I have use Procacci Brothers in PHL and Hartford Winery in MD but would like to find a few more options.


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## Chuck E

@Ajmassa
I'm with you, I don't know enough about the AVA's and the annual growing conditions in each location. I listen intently to all the folks on this site, and read the news from industry web sites; but it's still difficult to know what to choose from the limited supplies we get trucked in.


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## mainshipfred

GR! said:


> Where do you get your VA grapes from?



I get them from local vineyards but only because I have a relationship with them. From your other post you can also get grapes and juice from S&S Wine Grapes in Jessup, MD. They are like Procassi in you don't pre order just get what they have at the time.


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## Cynewulf

GR! said:


> Where do you source your grapes from? In the past I have use Procacci Brothers in PHL and Hartford Winery in MD but would like to find a few more options.


The Virginia Vineyards Association advertises grapes for sale and a few of them will sell smaller quantities: 5. Grapes for Sale – Virginia Vineyards Association.


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## Ajmassa

GR! said:


> Where do you source your grapes from? In the past I have use Procacci Brothers in PHL and Hartford Winery in MD but would like to find a few more options.


Living in south jersey I’m lucky enough to have multiple options relatively close for fresh grapes

1. Gino Pintos Hammonton Nj - offer multiple options. Around a dozen diff vineyards each fall (own fleet of trucks. Act as own supplier)
2. Procacci Bros S. Philly- 2 different Central Valley options typically (private supplier. Pia)
3. Keystone Homebrew Montgomeryville PA - similar to Pintos (F Colavita & Son supplier)
4. Corrados North Jersey - similar to Procacci


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## GR!

Thanks for all the info. Im trying to get my Fall plan together. Im thinking I want to do about 15 gallons of Cab/Merlot blend and 6 of Viognier. Last time I tried fresh grapes it didn't turn out well, hopefully this time I can turn it around!


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## mainshipfred

GR! said:


> Thanks for all the info. Im trying to get my Fall plan together. Im thinking I want to do about 15 gallons of Cab/Merlot blend and 6 of Viognier. Last time I tried fresh grapes it didn't turn out well, hopefully this time I can turn it around!



Others may disagree but I would recommend getting a juice bucket for the Viognier. The processing is close to the same for whites and there is a considerable cost difference with grapes and juice. I feel reds are a different story though and it's worth the money to go grape. What didn't you particularly dislike about your last batch?


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## Stressbaby

Couple of supplies questions, not worthy or a separate thread...
1. Found a pack of VP 41 in the fridge. The expiration date reads: "EXP -18C: May-21." Does it mean it has to be stored at -18C to be good until May 21? If so, does anyone have experience with year-old MLB?
2. Looking for tannin derived from grapes rather than oak, and all I can find is 1kg packages for $300-400. Home grape grower/winemaker, I don't need that much. Is anyone aware of tannins _from grapes_ in smaller quantities?


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## mainshipfred

Stressbaby said:


> Couple of supplies questions, not worthy or a separate thread...
> 1. Found a pack of VP 41 in the fridge. The expiration date reads: "EXP -18C: May-21." Does it mean it has to be stored at -18C to be good until May 21? If so, does anyone have experience with year-old MLB?
> 2. Looking for tannin derived from grapes rather than oak, and all I can find is 1kg packages for $300-400. Home grape grower/winemaker, I don't need that much. Is anyone aware of tannins _from grapes_ in smaller quantities?



In a brief search I see Scott Labs has UVA'TAN and TAN Soft in 500 gram packs. Still a lot at $189 and $211. There has to be other products out there though


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## Ajmassa

@Stressbaby I’ve used Lodi Labs website for some stuff over the years. one thing I took notice of was the amount of tannin selection they offer. Much more than other sites. Many are only sold large quantities- but definitely not all. (I’ve had nothing but positive experiences dealing with Lodi btw. Great customer service)
Its worth a look 









Tannins


Lodi Wine Lab offers wine and water analysis services as well as products for the Wine and Beer Industries.




www.lodiwinelabs.com


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## GR!

mainshipfred said:


> Others may disagree but I would recommend getting a juice bucket for the Viognier. The processing is close to the same for whites and there is a considerable cost difference with grapes and juice. I feel reds are a different story though and it's worth the money to go grape. What didn't you particularly dislike about your last batch?



I'll give the white bucket a try. I gave grapes a try in Sept '16 and they just didn't come out well. It was my first foray into it and I just assumed it was just like a kit. I Didn't take any readings, didn't make any adjustments, just crushed into a bucket and tossed the yeast. Had no clue what a punchdown was or how to spell MLF. Needless to say it was an epic fail. After that I gave up on the hobby for awhile because I was so busy with work. I think I'm ready to give it another shot this year, and plan on leaning on the forum heavily for guidance!


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## Stressbaby

Ajmassa said:


> @Stressbaby I’ve used Lodi Labs website for some stuff over the years. one thing I took notice of was the amount of tannin selection they offer. Much more than other sites. Many are only sold large quantities- but definitely not all. (I’ve had nothing but positive experiences dealing with Lodi btw. Great customer service)
> Its worth a look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tannins
> 
> 
> Lodi Wine Lab offers wine and water analysis services as well as products for the Wine and Beer Industries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lodiwinelabs.com



Thanks! They do have UVA Tan in 250g packets. UVA Tan was the brand specifically recommended.


----------



## mainshipfred

GR! said:


> I'll give the white bucket a try. I gave grapes a try in Sept '16 and they just didn't come out well. It was my first foray into it and I just assumed it was just like a kit. I Didn't take any readings, didn't make any adjustments, just crushed into a bucket and tossed the yeast. Had no clue what a punchdown was or how to spell MLF. Needless to say it was an epic fail. After that I gave up on the hobby for awhile because I was so busy with work. I think I'm ready to give it another shot this year, and plan on leaning on the forum heavily for guidance!



Don't know if you have a crusher destemmer but you can always bring the grapes to my shop, chances are I'll be crushing something. BTW, there are 5 of us locals meeting at a winery on Sunday at 2:00. it's 3 Creeks 18548 Harmony Church Road, Hamilton VA. I'll text Brandon to let him know as well. Didn't know we had so many of us so close. I know the winemaker and was going to ask if he could sit with us for a while.


----------



## GR!

mainshipfred said:


> Don't know if you have a crusher destemmer but you can always bring the grapes to my shop, chances are I'll be crushing something. BTW, there are 5 of us locals meeting at a winery on Sunday at 2:00. it's 3 Creeks 18548 Harmony Church Road, Hamilton VA. I'll text Brandon to let him know as well. Didn't know we had so many of us so close. I know the winemaker and was going to ask if he could sit with us for a while.



I actually do have a crusher destemmer, but thank you for the offer! I work Sunday morning but I think I get off early enough to stop into the winery for a bit, thank you for the invite!


----------



## jgmann67

I just remembered that I didn’t update Jim Gearing at WW with my new email address (shut the old one down when we moved). Did that yesterday.

I feel like we’re getting close to ordering time.

Hoping for a good season this year - got the new press AND a barrel on the way thanks to Fred.


----------



## Boatboy24

I'm looking forward to it as well. I suddenly have too many empty carboys.


----------



## CDrew

Things are jelling a bit. Planning the Primitivo as usual, the Cab Franc (assuming the harvest dates work), I found a good source of Sauvignon Blanc in the foothills, and even a source of Tempranillo at one of the wineries I frequent. That's likely enough. I also hope they are spread out a bit timewise. As a back up I have Syrah and Sangiovese ready to go if the timing does not work for the others.

My other goal, this year is to get another winemaker started. One of my new colleagues is a homebrewer and home distiller(or was in Ohio), and he is keenly interested in making wine here in Northern California this fall. So See one, do one, teach one! He's getting his basic equipment together now, will use one of my fermentors, and will likely crush and press with me. That should be fun too. Now it's up to the weather, the heat and time. The weather and heat levels right now are ideal for a good harvest. Looking forward to it.


----------



## CDrew

mainshipfred said:


> I keep wondering if wineries will make the same quantity of wine they previously made this year. I know, at least in my area, the wineries were struggling with sales and probably have more inventory than normal. I guess it depends on how much storage they have. I see it being excess grapes at a reduced rate or elevated prices to make up for the lost revenue. Will know soon!



I was up in the foothills yesterday and talked to one of the small to medium sized (3000-5000 cases per year) winemakers there. For 2020 he is only doing grapes off his own property (43 acres) and is not buying any outside grapes for about the first time ever. Also, he is ending his program of making wines for other labels. So I would say, based on a small local sample, there is some idea of cutting back a bit. He even said I could come and pick some of the Tempranillo and possibly Barbera. He didn't say anything about cutting prices, though his wine club specials are pretty generous already. As Fred says above, he has been clearing inventory with "case specials" just for the wine club and said this cleared 80 cases on just last Saturday alone.

Anyway, I hope the family operations make it through this period. We as home winemakers are fortunate, in not needing to make our income from wine, and can just focus on wine as a hobby.


----------



## jgmann67

We’re a week or so past veraison. Wonder when the price lists will come out.


----------



## Ajmassa

**Just a heads up for others in the northeast area** Keystone HomeBrew (mainly a F Colavita & Son distributor) and Gino Pintos both said to anticipate selection & pricing in about a week as they iron out pricing. 

For fall I’m definite on making the muscat blend I did 2 years ago. 300lbs. Maybe a natural ferment again. We’ll see. This wine was always done with the cheaper grapes from south Philly’s Procacci Bros. My brothers and dad are all looking forward to spending the day here. Should be a great time. And pickup is always fun at Procacci with the cold cuts & the prior vintage’s barrel on tap.
Any other wines I’m doing I’ll have to wait and see the menu before deciding.


----------



## Ajmassa

2 separate crush days by myself was too much work in 2018. May lighten my load even more and use Keystone. Theyre connected to a winery Stone & Key Cellars and offer C/D services. This would be a massive timesaver. 
On the phone he couldn’t tell me what fall’s COVID protocol will be just yet but for Chilean they did this:
_“FOR GRAPES, if you plan to crush your own grapes at home, then the pickup procedure will be the same as for juice. If you want your grapes crushed here ($1.50 per lug), then we will need to crush them once they arrive and freeze them until your scheduled pickup date. We have buckets (new for $17.50, used for $5.00) that we can crush into for you. With our safety protocols in place at this time, we cannot use your buckets from home”_​Cold soak!— nice bonus! I think it’s a great deal. For ~20gal of wine I’d get 8 lugs/288lbs. Comes to only $42 extra to have my grapes destemmed, crushed into 5gal buckets (I assume), frozen and stored till pickup. Not bad. 

So far Im leaning towards Wash State cab w/ a Petite Verdot lug or 2 tossed in to hedge my bet.


----------



## Stressbaby

Picked Foch and Frontenac yesterday at 19. Again this year, heavy losses due to critters. I bought one of those inflatable scarecrows which helped some.

My Frontenac last year was not color stable, so I'm going to try the hybrid red color stabilization techniques in the first post here. No enzymes, no up-front tannin additions, but GRAPE tannin (UVA TAN) after pressing. Thanks again @Ajmassa for the Lodi Labs tip.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> 2 separate crush days by myself was too much work in 2018. May lighten my load even more and use Keystone. Theyre connected to a winery Stone & Key Cellars and offer C/D services. This would be a massive timesaver.
> On the phone he couldn’t tell me what fall’s COVID protocol will be just yet but for Chilean they did this:
> _“FOR GRAPES, if you plan to crush your own grapes at home, then the pickup procedure will be the same as for juice. If you want your grapes crushed here ($1.50 per lug), then we will need to crush them once they arrive and freeze them until your scheduled pickup date. We have buckets (new for $17.50, used for $5.00) that we can crush into for you. With our safety protocols in place at this time, we cannot use your buckets from home”_​Cold soak!— nice bonus! I think it’s a great deal. For ~20gal of wine I’d get 8 lugs/288lbs. Comes to only $42 extra to have my grapes destemmed, crushed into 5gal buckets (I assume), frozen and stored till pickup. Not bad.
> 
> So far Im leaning towards Wash State cab w/ a Petite Verdot lug or 2 tossed in to hedge my bet.



The cold soak would be nice but having someone else do the crushing takes some of the fun out of it, especially since you have a motorized C/D. I get grapes from different sources so I'm not having to crush the entire fall harvest at the same time which helps.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> The cold soak would be nice but having someone else do the crushing takes some of the fun out of it, especially since you have a motorized C/D.



Agreed—- IF the juice was worth the squeeze!
To clean I can’t spray water hard or it’ll remove paint. To prep I need to carefully remove any lose chips, and I coat everything in silicon spray. In spring I had to take apart the motor completely then reassemble to get running. Then get the monster up on the painters baker i use. Not light. Clamp & screw in the ghetto metal chute I made. Then the plexi cover. Gotta keep some paper towels over a spot that splatters grease out. Very very needy. Plus all the other prep, work, sorting, & cleaning that day. A lot when alone. 

Id love to fully refurbish it and I’d thoroughly enjoy that. But between the company and house renovations- winemaking projects tend to fall down the list. Been looking at proper stands. Will spare me at least some of that headache. C/D Stands.


----------



## Boatboy24

Reached out to Jim Gearing of Washington Winemakers this morning. He says the pricing and order form should be out by the end of the weekend. What great timing - I'm going back to work on Monday!


----------



## Ajmassa

No Wash St grapes to the east coast this year it seems

Can’t decide
Koch or 169 ???


----------



## Boatboy24

Got the Washington Winemaker's price list a bit ago. What's everyone making? Anyone make a Pinot Noir from their grapes in recent years? I need to make another, but am not sure about the idea of one from Lodi. Zin would be another choice (and one I really like), but I have 14 gallons from 2019. My partner (Dad) suggested another "Prisoner" style blend like we did in 2015, but I've got those wines ready to blend from 2018. I might just do the same 4 wines (Zin, Cab, Syrah, Petite Sirah), but target a different style blend. 

Noticed they have Albarino grapes - I'm tempted. 

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome - especially if you've had success with WW grapes in the past.

Edit: Here's the list of what's available.


----------



## Cynewulf

This will be my first year and as it’s looking like downy mildew is going to ensure that I get very little from my vineyard, I’m thinking of ordering from WW. I was thinking of either a Cabernet Franc varietal or a blend similar to one I’ve had from a producer in the southern Rhône - Merlot, Syrah, Grenache - unusual in that region for the inclusion of Merlot but very nice.


----------



## CDrew

Boatboy24 said:


> Got the Washington Winemaker's price list a bit ago. What's everyone making? Anyone make a Pinot Noir from their grapes in recent years? I need to make another, but am not sure about the idea of one from Lodi. Zin would be another choice (and one I really like), but I have 14 gallons from 2019. My partner (Dad) suggested another "Prisoner" style blend like we did in 2015, but I've got those wines ready to blend from 2018. I might just do the same 4 wines (Zin, Cab, Syrah, Petite Sirah), but target a different style blend.
> 
> Noticed they have Albarino grapes - I'm tempted.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome - especially if you've had success with WW grapes in the past.
> 
> Edit: Here's the list of what's available.
> 
> View attachment 65130



Ha-since you've given us the chance to spend your money, I vote 1/2 your production of Syrah, and 1/2 Barbera. The Barbera will be ready relatively quickly and great with food, and the Syrah will be a presence for years. Another great choice for a food wine would be the Sangiovese. What I would specifically not do, is make a central valley Pinot Noir. That's hard to get right even where the conditions are more favorable.

Your prices don't look all the bad. Most in the neighborhood of $1 per pound.

How much are you making?


----------



## Boatboy24

CDrew said:


> Ha-since you've given us the chance to spend your money, I vote 1/2 your production of Syrah, and 1/2 Barbera. The Barbera will be ready relatively quickly and great with food, and the Syrah will be a presence for years. Another great choice for a food wine would be the Sangiovese. What I would specifically not do, is make a central valley Pinot Noir. That's hard to get right even where the conditions are more favorable.
> 
> Your prices don't look all the bad. Most in the neighborhood of $1 per pound.
> 
> How much are you making?



I'll be doing somewhere between 12 and 15 lugs total. Thanks for reinforcing my concern on the PN. I think if I want to make that, I'll need to travel 2-3 hours north to get some better selection.


----------



## CDrew

To me, Lodi is trying hard to carve out it's own thing. There are a lot of grapes in the area. But, it's just part of the central valley. So hot climate grapes are likely what you want from there. Zinfandel is a staple there. Great from the foothills(Amador, El Dorado) and places like Dry Creek in Sonoma. I'm a huge fan. Pinot Noir not so much. It likes cooler temps. Coastal California and Oregon. Those grapes are likely not available back east. Maybe look for Central coast Pinot Noir. Great wines from around SLO and even Santa Barbara.

For me, I like wine that compliments food. That's my bias and I'll own it. We are having a '16 Syrah tonight with Salmon I caught last month in Alaska. Doesn't get much better.


----------



## jgmann67

Thinking 4 lugs of Sangiovese, and 3 lugs each of Cab and Merlot for a field blended California Super Tuscan.

So, if I’m doing the math right, 10 - 36 lb lugs will produce about 33 gallons of must, and about 20 gallons of finished wine. Is that correct?


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Thinking 4 lugs of Sangiovese, and 3 lugs each of Cab and Merlot for a field blended California Super Tuscan.
> 
> So, if I’m doing the math right, 10 - 36 lb lugs will produce about 33 gallons of must, and about 20 gallons of finished wine. Is that correct?



Sounds about right. my estimate has it at 36gal of must and about 25gal of finished wine
(lbs of grapes - last digit = gal of must)

360lbs=36gal must
70%= 25gal
Low yield 60%= 21.5gal

*We’re in the ballpark. I just know when I wanna fill a 14.25gal demi & 5/6gal carboy x8 lugs gets me there w/ spare change.
smaller volume field blends definitely limits our blend options. And keeping separate to blend later adds so much work, time, planning, —just everything.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Thinking 4 lugs of Sangiovese, and 3 lugs each of Cab and Merlot for a field blended California Super Tuscan.



The 1st “larger” grape batch I did on my own was a ‘17 super Tuscan field blend. And I F’ed it up royally! I was clueless and taking in a ton of new info all at once w/ too much tinkering. 

Was x4 Sangio. x2 Merlot x2 Cab. Cheap unhealthy Pia fruit from Philly. And Sangio was a lot lighter than I realized. Sooner or later I’ll do another to try and redeem myself. I like your blend much better. Are you getting Lodi grapes for this?


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Thinking 4 lugs of Sangiovese, and 3 lugs each of Cab and Merlot for a field blended California Super Tuscan.
> 
> So, if I’m doing the math right, 10 - 36 lb lugs will produce about 33 gallons of must, and about 20 gallons of finished wine. Is that correct?



I agree with AJ. Somewhere between 21 and 25 gallons. I typically get 7 gallons, or a bit more, from 3 lugs.


----------



## DPCellars

Ajmassa said:


> @Stressbaby I’ve used Lodi Labs website for some stuff over the years. one thing I took notice of was the amount of tannin selection they offer. Much more than other sites. Many are only sold large quantities- but definitely not all. (I’ve had nothing but positive experiences dealing with Lodi btw. Great customer service)
> Its worth a look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tannins
> 
> 
> Lodi Wine Lab offers wine and water analysis services as well as products for the Wine and Beer Industries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lodiwinelabs.com


I live in Lodi and love going into LWL. Last year I sent in my wine panels at the end of the day. Within two hours, I had my results. The staff there is absolutely amazing. They are as passionate as they are knowledgeable. I am pretty certain my next car will have to wait, because LWL is gonna end up with my money instead.


----------



## DPCellars

CDrew said:


> To me, Lodi is trying hard to carve out it's own thing. There are a lot of grapes in the area. But, it's just part of the central valley. So hot climate grapes are likely what you want from there. Zinfandel is a staple there. Great from the foothills(Amador, El Dorado) and places like Dry Creek in Sonoma. I'm a huge fan. Pinot Noir not so much. It likes cooler temps. Coastal California and Oregon. Those grapes are likely not available back east. Maybe look for Central coast Pinot Noir. Great wines from around SLO and even Santa Barbara.
> 
> For me, I like wine that compliments food. That's my bias and I'll own it. We are having a '16 Syrah tonight with Salmon I caught last month in Alaska. Doesn't get much better.



What's interesting is that last year, Lodi exported more Cabernet Sauvignon than they did Zinfandel. There are a couple of wineries here that can give Napa a run for their money with our local Cab. Sadly, I am starting to feel a personal departure from Zin. I made a mistake of taking a swig of a late harvest, thinking it was a standard OVZ. Man, it's like tequila. One bad night and it sticks with you for a long time. lol


----------



## CDrew

@DPCellars we are practically neighbors. I live just outside of Sacramento to the east and frequently go to LWL for supplies. It's maybe a 30 minute drive for me.

LWL turn around is great. Super pro, quick and no nonsense.

Hit me up if you have a home wine maker quantity of grapes and I will join in your purchase, especially if Barbera!

I have to say, I've not had a Lodi cab that compares to the richness of Napa or Sonoma but I do have an open mind and willing to try. Most lodi varietals seem to be grown for highest possible yield vs highest possible quality but I know they are trying to change that. I hope they do.


----------



## DPCellars

CDrew said:


> @DPCellars we are practically neighbors. I live just outside of Sacramento to the east and frequently go to LWL for supplies. It's maybe a 30 minute drive for me.
> 
> LWL turn around is great. Super pro, quick and no nonsense.
> 
> Hit me up if you have a home wine maker quantity of grapes and I will join in your purchase, especially if Barbera!
> 
> I have to say, I've not had a Lodi cab that compares to the richness of Napa or Sonoma but I do have an open mind and willing to try. Most lodi varietals seem to be grown for highest possible yield vs highest possible quality but I know they are trying to change that. I hope they do.



Man, that sounds great! So...out of curiosity... What would you consider a "home wine maker quantity of grapes"? I am so new to this that I do not really know what that is. Most I have produced in my staggering 2 years is 96 bottles. lol


----------



## CDrew

DPCellars said:


> Man, that sounds great! So...out of curiosity... What would you consider a "home wine maker quantity of grapes"? I am so new to this that I do not really know what that is. Most I have produced in my staggering 2 years is 96 bottles. lol



Great question. I like to see a minimum of 300 pounds of grapes. With a maximum around 500 pounds. That's what I can deal with. Others will feel differently.


----------



## franc1969

Boatboy24 said:


> Got the Washington Winemaker's price list a bit ago. What's everyone making? Anyone make a Pinot Noir from their grapes in recent years?
> Noticed they have Albarino grapes - I'm tempted.


My friend has Pinot Noir from last year- it was decent, but nothing spectacular but good for drinking with meals. I doubt you can make spectacular without knowing the vineyard and grapes you are really getting. My goal for now is something I like better than bulk wine, it'll do. 
Last year they did not get Albarino grapes, as order was later than grapes could hold. I don't know about juice. They also did not get Touriga juice, which is what I am trying for this year, along with Albarino and Tempranillo juice.
Everything is juice for me, with added lugs of probably Petit Sirah. I just don't have it in me to deal with much pressing, though I have gotten an offer of a press to use. A couple gallons will be jelly. Last year's Merlot and Barbera was wonderful.
What's the difference between what would be called Primitivo vs Zinfandel?


----------



## DPCellars

CDrew said:


> Great question. I like to see a minimum of 300 pounds of grapes. With a maximum around 500 pounds. That's what I can deal with. Others will feel differently.



Just missed it. I hand picked and crushed about 400 pounds of Pinot last Wednesday and 400 pounds of Cab on Sunday. Pressing the Pinot tomorrow morning.


----------



## CDrew

franc1969 said:


> What's the difference between what would be called Primitivo vs Zinfandel?



They are basically the same and can be sold in California as either. I read that the Primitivo is ripe about 1 week earlier than Zinfandel given the same conditions, but I don't know that to be a fact. Europe considers the two to be the same.

I do know this will be my 4th year making wine from Primitivo and look forward to picking on the 19th of September assuming it continues to ripen at the same rate!


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Reached out to Jim Gearing of Washington Winemakers this morning. He says the pricing and order form should be out by the end of the weekend. What great timing - I'm going back to work on Monday!



Congrats Jim!


----------



## tullamore

Boatboy24 said:


> Got the Washington Winemaker's price list a bit ago. What's everyone making? Anyone make a Pinot Noir from their grapes in recent years? I need to make another, but am not sure about the idea of one from Lodi. Zin would be another choice (and one I really like), but I have 14 gallons from 2019. My partner (Dad) suggested another "Prisoner" style blend like we did in 2015, but I've got those wines ready to blend from 2018. I might just do the same 4 wines (Zin, Cab, Syrah, Petite Sirah), but target a different style blend.
> 
> Noticed they have Albarino grapes - I'm tempted.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome - especially if you've had success with WW grapes in the past.
> 
> Edit: Here's the list of what's available.
> 
> View attachment 65130


this gives us in Canada a guideline on what we will be paying - list will be out in about a week or so - all my grapes come from lodi, Amador County and El Dorado


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Got the Washington Winemaker's price list a bit ago. What's everyone making? Anyone make a Pinot Noir from their grapes in recent years? I need to make another, but am not sure about the idea of one from Lodi. Zin would be another choice (and one I really like), but I have 14 gallons from 2019. My partner (Dad) suggested another "Prisoner" style blend like we did in 2015, but I've got those wines ready to blend from 2018. I might just do the same 4 wines (Zin, Cab, Syrah, Petite Sirah), but target a different style blend.
> 
> Noticed they have Albarino grapes - I'm tempted.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome - especially if you've had success with WW grapes in the past.
> 
> Edit: Here's the list of what's available.
> 
> View attachment 65130



The only problem I have with getting the whites from WW is they are stored too long. I got Sauv Blanc in 18 and they were not in the greatest shape. The wine turned out only OK. I talked to Chrysalis about Albarino but they wanted $3.00/lb which is way too much but they are the only ones I know of that grow it locally. I may opt for a bucket though. Other than that I don't know what to do about the OVZ since reading @CDrew's post on Primitivo. Don't know if it makes sense to do a field blend of the two. Other than that I'm going to find out what my local options are on Friday but I have to make a Syrah which I'd rather get from Cali. The one nice thing about WW is you get all the grapes at the same time. Last year I think I crushed 6 or 7 different times.


----------



## ibglowin

Sauv Blanc is always the first grape picked at harvest anywhere in the US so if they are holding it until the Cab Sauv is ripe and shipping it all on the same truck its pretty effing old and been sitting in cold storage for weeks and weeks.


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> The only problem I have with getting the whites from WW is they are stored too long. I got Sauv Blanc in 18 and they were not in the greatest shape. The wine turned out only OK. I talked to Chrysalis about Albarino but they wanted $3.00/lb which is way too much but they are the only ones I know of that grow it locally. I may opt for a bucket though. Other than that I don't know what to do about the OVZ since reading @CDrew's post on Primitivo. Don't know if it makes sense to do a field blend of the two. Other than that I'm going to find out what my local options are on Friday but I have to make a Syrah which I'd rather get from Cali. The one nice thing about WW is you get all the grapes at the same time. Last year I think I crushed 6 or 7 different times.


If you’re willing to drive a bit farther, it looks like Ingleside Vineyards has Albarino they’re willing to sell in smaller quantities, though they don’t mention pricing. https://virginiavineyardsassociation.org/advert/2020-grapes-for-sale/


----------



## Boatboy24

Cynewulf said:


> If you’re willing to drive a bit farther, it looks like Ingleside Vineyards has Albarino they’re willing to sell in smaller quantities, though they don’t mention pricing. 2020 Grapes For Sale



Interesting. I wonder what their pricing is like.


----------



## Ajmassa

New stand arrived yesterday. C/D fits well. Minor tweak to the crusher will fit perfectly. 
. Many similar models similarly priced out there. Purchased from morewine. A proven winner imo. And i’m a satisfied customer....again.


----------



## Boatboy24

franc1969 said:


> My friend has Pinot Noir from last year- it was decent, but nothing spectacular but good for drinking with meals. I doubt you can make spectacular without knowing the vineyard and grapes you are really getting. My goal for now is something I like better than bulk wine, it'll do.
> Last year they did not get Albarino grapes, as order was later than grapes could hold. I don't know about juice. They also did not get Touriga juice, which is what I am trying for this year, along with Albarino and Tempranillo juice.
> Everything is juice for me, with added lugs of probably Petit Sirah. I just don't have it in me to deal with much pressing, though I have gotten an offer of a press to use. A couple gallons will be jelly. Last year's Merlot and Barbera was wonderful.
> What's the difference between what would be called Primitivo vs Zinfandel?



I've got Touriga from last year in my 40L barrel now (2nd wine in it). Pretty sure @mainshipfred did Touriga as well. Both from grapes. Mine is pretty good so far. A little light/mellow, but I think the barrel time will concentrate things up a bit.


----------



## franc1969

Boatboy24 said:


> I've got Touriga from last year in my 40L barrel now (2nd wine in it). Pretty sure @mainshipfred did Touriga as well. Both from grapes. Mine is pretty good so far. A little light/mellow, but I think the barrel time will concentrate things up a bit.


See, that's what made be completely rearrange what I want this year. I'd really like a Touriga blend from grapes, so I have a bit more flexibility to pull off a few gallons for a port-style to age on the skins.
So I think I've settled on several whites and zinfandel, contemplating an Italian juice bucket too. More planning ahead for grapes next year.


----------



## Boatboy24

OK, I think I've made up my mind and need to do a Super Tuscan style blend this year. We'll get some Sangio, Cab Franc, Cab Sauv and Merlot. And because they are Lodi grapes and I really like it, I'll do some Zin on its own. The Super Tuscan grapes will provide some good blending options for the leftovers, so this should all work out well.


----------



## Boatboy24

franc1969 said:


> See, that's what made be completely rearrange what I want this year. I'd really like a Touriga blend from grapes, so I have a bit more flexibility to pull off a few gallons for a port-style to age on the skins.
> So I think I've settled on several whites and zinfandel, contemplating an Italian juice bucket too. More planning ahead for grapes next year.



FWIW, I just topped up the Touriga barrel and sampled both the barrel wine and the top-up wine. Both are very nice, but even after just one month in that 40L barrel, there's a big difference. It was a field blend of 5 lugs Touriga and 1 lug of Tempranillo.


----------



## mainshipfred

I think I'll be getting most of my grapes from my commercial friend. He has 4 tractor trailer loads coming from Cali and Washington. They are a bit more expensive but I know they were picked only a few days prior and he has better control over the numbers than I do. I'll still be getting some Zin from WW though so I can catch up with everyone.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I think I'll be getting most of my grapes from my commercial friend. He has 4 tractor trailer loads coming from Cali and Washington. They are a bit more expensive but I know they were picked only a few days prior and he has better control over the numbers than I do. I'll still be getting some Zin from WW though so I can catch up with everyone.



Is he always getting that much from the West Coast, or is this another bad year in VA with all the rain?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Is he always getting that much from the West Coast, or is this another bad year in VA with all the rain?



So far from my understanding the rain did not have much of an effect on the harvest he is doing a lot of custome crushes with the new production facility


----------



## jgmann67

Put my order in with WW.

in addition to the Super Tuscan blend, I’m going to do 4 lugs of Malbec. Almost 1/4 ton of grapes - more than I’veever done. Funny - Mrs Mann didn’t even bat an eye.

I gotta get my supplies in order. Going to use D254 on the Super. Still thinking about the Malbec. And probably Beta for an MLB.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Put my order in with WW.
> 
> in addition to the Super Tuscan blend, I’m going to do 4 lugs of Malbec. Almost 1/4 ton of grapes - more than I’veever done. Funny - Mrs Mann didn’t even bat an eye.
> 
> I gotta get my supplies in order. Going to use D254 on the Super. Still thinking about the Malbec. And probably Beta for an MLB.



Dropping mine in the mailbox this morning. 15 lugs for me this year, which is also the most I've done (at once, at least). My MoreWine cart is full - just need to review once more before sending that in. 

FWIW, I used D254 on my last Malbec (a California). Using BM4X4 for the ST.


----------



## Ajmassa

Cabernet Sauvignon from Rutherford Bench of Napa Valley. $3.29/lb

Yep. _actually_ Napa Valley. For home winemakers.
First time ever seeing this personally. There’s always alot of AVA’s made available but I have never seen a true blue Napa Valley option, ever. They’ll often find clever ways to insert a “Napa” reference in descriptions- but never offering actual napa grapes, until now.

Seemed noteworthy enough to mention.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa said:


> Cabernet Sauvignon from Rutherford Bench of Napa Valley. $3.29/lb
> 
> Yep. _actually_ Napa Valley. For home winemakers.
> First time ever seeing this personally. There’s always alot of AVA’s made available but I have never seen a true blue Napa Valley option, ever. They’ll often find clever ways to insert a “Napa” reference in descriptions- but never offering actual napa grapes, until now.
> 
> Seemed noteworthy enough to mention. View attachment 65532



Where from, Andrew?


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> Where from, Andrew?


My guess is California, Paul.


----------



## Ajmassa

Sorry @sour_graoes lol. Couldn’t help myself.

Rutherford Bench Napa Cab is being offered by Keystone. (LHBS/winery in Montgomerville, PA. About 30min north of Philly)

Keystone Premium Grapes & Juice
(The Lodi grapes are listed under the “All Fresh Grapes & Juice” tab.)


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa said:


> Sorry @sour_graoes lol. Couldn’t help myself.



Ouch, you got me good!


----------



## Boatboy24

I dunno, AJ. That looks like 36lbs for $3.29 to me. How many dozen lugs did you order?


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> Ouch, you got me good!


Ok. Ok. Bad jokes rightly deserve some patronizing 




Boatboy24 said:


> I dunno, AJ. That looks like 36lbs for $3.29 to me. How many dozen lugs did you order?


Lol yeah it’s a funky order form UI. I added 8 them to my cart just to quickly see a total. Minimum 36 lugs needed for a purchase!? That’s how they get ya!

In all seriousness I’d love to make these grapes at some point. It’s just such a huge leap from the other already pricey Premium grapes. From highest $2.09/lb to $3.29!
I think I’m gonna go for the Lake County Red Hills cab tho. 
On the phone last week I was asking about wash st and lake county and the guy didn’t leave any room for debate. Said the LC grapes are consistently incredible and he sold me! probably pullin the trigger tomorrow.


----------



## GreenEnvy22

I think I'm skipping making any wine for 2020. I made a huge amount last year, and I'm already short on space to store it before I've even bottled it all.
We also harvested our own Muscat earlier this week, but only got about 120 lb of grapes, last year I got about triple that. So we decided just to preserve the juice and make some jellies and like. We also froze a whole bunch of them in small snack bags for the kids lunches at school.
I'm still making a batch of beer every month or so, and my garden and hot sauces are keeping me busy too.
At least I got to try out my newly electrified grape crusher, worked well.


----------



## jgmann67

Looking in the basement, i have three carboys of OVZ and 5 carboys of various kit wines that should probably fin their way into the bottle in the next couple weeks. Thank goodness for a three day weekend (and now I know why they call it “Labor” day).


----------



## jgmann67

Ordered all my supplies and got a message from Jim Gearing. My pick up time is between 10 and 11.

I’ll be crushing on site.


----------



## Boatboy24

I got a confirmation email from Jim, but no time. Lucky you! I'll be there around 10 regardless. 

Also had to place a second order with MoreWine - just realized I forgot the Lallzyme and OptiRed.


----------



## Boatboy24

A little over a week from pickup day and I'm starting to get giddy. Following that usually comes the 'oh sh*7! I'm not ready!' moment. All of my supplies have arrived, but I remembered that I need another Brute this year - Home Depot trip this weekend and time to finish organizing the winery. Can't wait.

Who is going to be at the Washington Winemakers pickup next weekend? I know we have @mainshipfred, @jgmann67, @Cynewulf, and (I think) @ceeaton. Anyone else?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> A little over a week from pickup day and I'm starting to get giddy. Following that usually comes the 'oh sh*7! I'm not ready!' moment. All of my supplies have arrived, but I remembered that I need another Brute this year - Home Depot trip this weekend and time to finish organizing the winery. Can't wait.
> 
> Who is going to be at the Washington Winemakers pickup next weekend? I know we have @mainshipfred, @jgmann67, @Cynewulf, and (I think) @ceeaton. Anyone else?



I have an extra brute laying around, BBJ. And, giddy begins to describe it. My supplies arrive tomorrow. Need to clean and prep, get some more blocks for the press.


----------



## franc1969

I think I am near the end of the pickup queue. Got my order in on Monday, finally made up my mind. Just juice buckets, but I plan on watching the crusher / destemmer so I know how it will work for later.
I think I have everything, still have extra fermaid coming. And have new 12 liter demijohns.


----------



## mainshipfred

franc1969 said:


> I think I am near the end of the pickup queue. Got my order in on Monday, finally made up my mind. Just juice buckets, but I plan on watching the crusher / destemmer so I know how it will work for later.
> I think I have everything, still have extra fermaid coming. And have new 12 liter demijohns.



Unless your crushing I think they are flexible. Most of us are planning on being there around 10, sure would be nice to meet you. I placed my order on Sunday and still don't have a pick up time. Jim and Eric do you want to carpool?


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Jim and Eric do you want to carpool?



I'll have my dad with me and will be dropping my son off for his baseball game on the way.


----------



## jgmann67

It’s looking like Mrs Mann will be flying down with me. We’ll be there right around 10.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> It’s looking like Mrs Mann will be flying down with me. We’ll be there right around 10.



Look forward to meeting her, no Craig!


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> Jim and Eric do you want to carpool?



Sure, Fred. Are you thinking meet up at your shop?


----------



## mainshipfred

Cynewulf said:


> Sure, Fred. Are you thinking meet up at your shop?



Thought it might be easiest.


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> Thought it might be easiest.


Sounds good. What time should I come by?


----------



## mainshipfred

Cynewulf said:


> Sounds good. What time should I come by?



What do you think, 9 - 9:15?


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> What do you think, 9 - 9:15?


Perfect - I’ll be there.


----------



## kvaden

I'll be there next week. I _think _I have everything I need... It being the first time I've done this, I'm looking forward to seeing how the process works.


----------



## franc1969

mainshipfred said:


> Unless your crushing I think they are flexible. Most of us are planning on being there around 10, sure would be nice to meet you. I placed my order on Sunday and still don't have a pick up time. Jim and Eric do you want to carpool?


I will be with my mom, we are not early people by any means, so we'll see what time I can manage to get her out. I am planning on running past Ikea for the one thing that I can't otherwise be bothered with.
And, I think the Heather who is after me is heatherd from here. She hasn't been on here all spring and summer.


----------



## Boatboy24

franc1969 said:


> I will be with my mom, we are not early people by any means, so we'll see what time I can manage to get her out. I am planning on running past Ikea for the one thing that I can't otherwise be bothered with.
> And, I think the Heather who is after me is heatherd from here. She hasn't been on here all spring and summer.



I tried to tag her in a post earlier, but her name never came up. Wondering if her account somehow got removed?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I tried to tag her in a post earlier, but her name never came up. Wondering if her account somehow got removed?



I've been emailing with her recently. She is only getting one bucket of Albarino. She is also not early people from what I remember. I'll see what time she is coming.


----------



## mainshipfred

kvaden said:


> I'll be there next week. I _think _I have everything I need... It being the first time I've done this, I'm looking forward to seeing how the process works.



What time Kelly? Erik and I are driving together and crushing at my place. Do you want to join us?


----------



## kvaden

mainshipfred said:


> What time Kelly? Erik and I are driving together and crushing at my place. Do you want to join us?


We’re aiming for around 10, but I have a couple people in tow already that will be along. And I’m just getting juice this time. I may be interested in checking out the crushing process, though. I’ll reach out later this week to check in. Thanks!


----------



## jgmann67

Wine supply fairies came!! I think I got everything... tannin already in stock.


----------



## Boatboy24

Looks like we're delayed a week.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Looks like we're delayed a week.



This is what kind of bothers me with these group buys. Norcal and Cdrew are already harvesting and I'm sure there are others in Cali. Also Procacci, S&S and I believe Gino Pinto and CFP already started getting fruit. I would think the grapes we are getting that have already been harvested are being stored properly but who knows how long they have been in storage. The Grenache last year was especially bad and the Tempranillo the year before wasn't much better. Neither made a very good wine and I still have 7 gallons of the Tempranillo I just can't bring myself around to bottle. I think they need to take lessons from Chili on proper proceedures.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> This is what kind of bothers me with these group buys. Norcal and Cdrew are already harvesting and I'm sure there are others in Cali. Also Procacci, S&S and I believe Gino Pinto and CFP already started getting fruit. I would think the grapes we are getting that have already been harvested are being stored properly but who knows how long they have been in storage. The Grenache last year was especially bad and the Tempranillo the year before wasn't much better. Neither made a very good wine and I still have 7 gallons of the Tempranillo I just can't bring myself around to bottle. I think they need to take lessons from Chili on proper proceedures.



I've been lucky (and so far pleased) with what I've gotten there. And the prices are very good. It seems Jim may be learning a lesson about getting orders in earlier. I've wondered that the last two years - it always feels like we're getting orders in so late. I'd love to be able to get Lanza grapes again. But the 3 hour drive to Philly, and the added cost is a lot. Anxious to see what this year's crop looks like when we pick it up.


----------



## GR!

mainshipfred said:


> This is what kind of bothers me with these group buys. Norcal and Cdrew are already harvesting and I'm sure there are others in Cali. Also Procacci, S&S and I believe Gino Pinto and CFP already started getting fruit. I would think the grapes we are getting that have already been harvested are being stored properly but who knows how long they have been in storage. The Grenache last year was especially bad and the Tempranillo the year before wasn't much better. Neither made a very good wine and I still have 7 gallons of the Tempranillo I just can't bring myself around to bottle. I think they need to take lessons from Chili on proper proceedures.



I did the 6hr round trip to Gino Pinto’s this morning! Got Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sav, and Petit Verdot. I was super happy with the grapes and am thinking they will be my go-to for the foreseeable future.


----------



## franc1969

What's the pricing like at Gino Pinto for those varieties? I couldn't do a trip right now, but it would be helpful to compare. Next year I plan some grapes, and Italian juice that wasn't happening this year.
I am a bit frustrated with the Washington Winemakers delay, even though I just made up my mind. I have a workshop that Saturday the 3rd, a procedure scheduled for the Monday after. It's going to be a push to get these going well, when I won't be home or functional until Tuesday. I'm not sure if I can even do the workshop, or do more than wave from a distance and grab my buckets. I have to get a Covid test on the Friday to be cleared for the procedure, likely should be isolated ahead of time too.


GR! said:


> I did the 6hr round trip to Gino Pinto’s this morning! Got Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sav, and Petit Verdot. I was super happy with the grapes and am thinking they will be my go-to for the foreseeable future.


----------



## mainshipfred

GR! said:


> I did the 6hr round trip to Gino Pinto’s this morning! Got Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sav, and Petit Verdot. I was super happy with the grapes and am thinking they will be my go-to for the foreseeable future.



When I picked up my spring grapes Mike told me they are trying to open a facility in Ashland for fall 2021. If it happens it's a no brainer for me. That 6 hour trip is a long one. But to those who travel much further, especially @crushday, sorry for whining.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> When I picked up my spring grapes Mike told me they are trying to open a facility in Ashland for fall 2021. If it happens it's a no brainer for me. That 6 hour trip is a long one. But to those who travel much further, especially @crushday, sorry for whining.



Ashland would be good - only issue there is dealing with 95, but at least it isn't summer traffic.

@GR!: Do you have a price list from Gino's?


----------



## BMarNJ

GR! said:


> I did the 6hr round trip to Gino Pinto’s this morning! Got Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sav, and Petit Verdot. I was super happy with the grapes and am thinking they will be my go-to for the foreseeable future.


I got California barbera grapes at GP yesterday. $42/36lbs. They were in great shape. That place was hopping.


----------



## GR!

Boatboy24 said:


> Ashland would be good - only issue there is dealing with 95, but at least it isn't summer traffic.
> 
> @GR!: Do you have a price list from Gino's?



Didn't get a list but Lodi Cab Franc & Merlot were 42, Petit Verdot was 48, and Cab Sav was 46


----------



## GR!

mainshipfred said:


> When I picked up my spring grapes Mike told me they are trying to open a facility in Ashland for fall 2021. If it happens it's a no brainer for me. That 6 hour trip is a long one. But to those who travel much further, especially @crushday, sorry for whining.



It definitely was a long day but when you look at what those West Coast guys are doing.... ill keep my 6hrs and 300lbs of grapes!


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Ashland would be good - only issue there is dealing with 95, but at least it isn't summer traffic.
> 
> @GR!: Do you have a price list from Gino's?



GP still essentially the Harford equivalent. 


https://www.winemakingtalk.com/attachments/scanned_from_a_lexmark_multifunction_product08-19-2020-125349-3-pdf.66205/?hash=51920c5a7c7cd64063df0b4e8e0189c4


----------



## GreenEnvy22

GreenEnvy22 said:


> I think I'm skipping making any wine for 2020. I made a huge amount last year, and I'm already short on space to store it before I've even bottled it all.
> We also harvested our own Muscat earlier this week, but only got about 120 lb of grapes, last year I got about triple that. So we decided just to preserve the juice and make some jellies and like. We also froze a whole bunch of them in small snack bags for the kids lunches at school.
> I'm still making a batch of beer every month or so, and my garden and hot sauces are keeping me busy too.
> At least I got to try out my newly electrified grape crusher, worked well.


Having said that, I now find myself with 350lbs of Dornfelder grapes in my back yard, and an offer for a similar amount of free Riesling grapes to be dropped off. Will need to run this by the boss to see what she says.


----------



## tullamore

BMarNJ said:


> I got California barbera grapes at GP yesterday. $42/36lbs. They were in great shape. That place was hopping.


being in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, just got our price list from our supplier - Amador County - barbera $78/lug, - petit sirah lodi premium $62/lug, malbec $59/lug, merlot $55/lug - grapes will be in 1st or second week of october


----------



## AaronSC

tullamore said:


> being in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, just got our price list from our supplier - Amador County - barbera $78/lug, - petit sirah lodi premium $62/lug, malbec $59/lug, merlot $55/lug - grapes will be in 1st or second week of october


Is it typical for Amador Barbera to be so expensive? I live in Amador and I always think of it as the grape that everyone grows (and often has some trouble selling). Malbec here is a much rarer commodity so I would have thought that would be the pricy one.

That being said the Barbera from Amador is worth it -it does superb out here.


----------



## tullamore

AaronSC said:


> Is it typical for Amador Barbera to be so expensive? I live in Amador and I always think of it as the grape that everyone grows (and often has some trouble selling). Malbec here is a much rarer commodity so I would have thought that would be the pricy one.
> 
> That being said the Barbera from Amador is worth it -it does superb out here.


transportation is a killer as well as cnd dollar - i agree the barbera from Amador is great
the grapes from El Dorado, the cab sav, pinot noir, sirah, merlot, etc... are at $98/lug
i've made some pinot from there a few years ago - WOW!


----------



## jgmann67

Don’t like what I’m seeing from Delta customers about this year’s deliveries. Begs a question - what if the grapes aren’t up to par (overripe, rotty, etc)? What do you do??


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Don’t like what I’m seeing from Delta customers about this year’s deliveries. Begs a question - what if the grapes aren’t up to par (overripe, rotty, etc)? What do you do??



I couldn't find any reviews but the quality of grapes has always been my concern, I think you're stuck with them.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Don’t like what I’m seeing from Delta customers about this year’s deliveries. Begs a question - what if the grapes aren’t up to par (overripe, rotty, etc)? What do you do??



I think Fred is right. I'm concerned as well. I'm hoping Gino Pinto gets their Virginia location open.


----------



## GR!

Boatboy24 said:


> I think Fred is right. I'm concerned as well. I'm hoping Gino Pinto gets their Virginia location open.



Oh come on, it’s only a 6hr drive! You can stop in Philly on the way back and get a 10am cheesesteak!


----------



## Boatboy24

I will say that the two field blends I made from WW grapes last year (Touriga/Tempranillo, Zin/Petite Sirah) are coming along very nicely. I tasted both on Friday night and was very pleased.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> I will say that the two field blends I made from WW grapes last year (Touriga/Tempranillo, Zin/Petite Sirah) are coming along very nicely. I tasted both on Friday night and was very pleased.



same here - I’ve been very happy with what I’ve gotten from them so far. Only 5 more days, then we’ll know.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> same here - I’ve been very happy with what I’ve gotten from them so far. Only 5 more days, then we’ll know.



I'm scared.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Don’t like what I’m seeing from Delta customers about this year’s deliveries. Begs a question - what if the grapes aren’t up to par (overripe, rotty, etc)? What do you do??



Seein a few posts with concern over WW grapes but nothing specifically mentioned. What’s goin on with this? @Boatboy24 @mainshipfred


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Seein a few posts with concern over WW grapes but nothing specifically mentioned. What’s goin on with this? @Boatboy24 @mainshipfred



I meant to ask the same question, I can't seem to find anything real derogatory either.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I meant to ask the same question, I can't seem to find anything real derogatory either.


Jim said something about reviews online right? Or over the ETA? Or a concerning email?

just curious. Trying to connect the dots but cannot. 

(sidenote - think that’s kinda cool you can read feedback posts and know what to expect. I hate blindly ordering and just hoping for the best. Unfortunately you can’t wait till reviews are in before making a decision)


----------



## Cynewulf

I think Jim was referring to this link that was shared with the WW list from a guy in Colorado that received grapes from Delta Packing last weekend, which is I believe who WW gets their grapes from: Facebook Groups.


----------



## tullamore

for time ever buying grapes under the PIA label - bought some nebbiolo- 
pressed on the weekend - color looks good and pleased with the taste -will wait to see in about a year for the final product
was always happy with the quality under Delta


----------



## BMarNJ

Cynewulf said:


> I think Jim was referring to this link that was shared with the WW list from a guy in Colorado that received grapes from Delta Packing last weekend, which is I believe who WW gets their grapes from: Facebook Groups.


My California barbera grapes from Gino Pinto were from a company called Lodi Gold, but its part of Delta. They were in great shape. So probably not a blanket issue, maybe only some deliveries?


----------



## Boatboy24

Cynewulf said:


> I think Jim was referring to this link that was shared with the WW list from a guy in Colorado that received grapes from Delta Packing last weekend, which is I believe who WW gets their grapes from: Facebook Groups.



Yep, that's it! Crossing my fingers that ours look nothing like that. This is only my 3rd year ordering through WW, and while I haven't bottled any wines from those grapes, they are good so far - especially last year's.


----------



## Cynewulf

This is my first year so I’m hoping for the best.


----------



## jgmann67

One of the WW members provided a link to a Facebook page complaining about the quality of their delivery from Delta.



I asked Jim Gearing about our delivery. But up to this point, he hadn’t seen our delivery yet.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> One of the WW members provided a link to a Facebook page complaining about the quality of their delivery from Delta.
> 
> View attachment 66528
> 
> I asked Jim Gearing about our delivery. But up to this point, he hadn’t seen our delivery yet.



They will get there sometime Friday. The truck is unloaded and ready for the 7:30 pick up group. They will still be pretty cold by the time we get there. Just checked 67 Friday going down to 43 and 64 on Saturday, bring a jacket.


----------



## Ajmassa

Presented without comment.


----------



## stickman

@Ajmassa Are you still sleeping in the house?


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> @Ajmassa Are you still sleeping in the house?


Lol. I definitely pushed my luck. Though the bulk came at pressing which I had moved into the garage from the basement. 

spring ferments are pleasant. Fall kicks my ass. Not just me though. All my neighbors been complaining of a bad fruit fly season. Even with just a bowl of apples on the counter, but fermenting 30gallons of grape juice and skins takes it to another level even with preventative measures taken. 

I def need to rethink my fermentation setup and move it out of the house into the garage or shed.


----------



## mainshipfred

My new 2020 toys, two 50 liter barrels and a 40 liter bladder press. Just have to get the casters on the second barrel cradle.


----------



## GR!

mainshipfred said:


> My new 2020 toys, two 50 liter barrels and a 40 liter bladder press. Just have to get the casters on the second barrel cradle.View attachment 66539


 You are going to love the bladder press! (does this mean our barrels are in?!?!?)


----------



## mainshipfred

GR! said:


> You are going to love the bladder press! (does this mean our barrels are in?!?!?)



They are, I thought I posted it. They're ready to start drinking your wine. Let me know when you and Brandon want to pick yours up.


----------



## Boatboy24

@mainshipfred: I take it that's the press from the WW member. Looks like a beauty.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> @mainshipfred: I take it that's the press from the WW member. Looks like a beauty.



Really is, crushed and pressed the Vio today. I was told to press at .2 bar and work my way up to .8 adding more grapes each time. Turns out I was able to get all 150 lbs in it and could probably have gotten 200. With reds after going through fermentation and having the enzymes working longer 200 should be no problem. BTW, I pressed to 2 bar.


----------



## Boatboy24

It's Crush Eve! Finally!


----------



## CDrew

mainshipfred said:


> Really is, crushed and pressed the Vio today. I was told to press at .2 bar and work my way up to .8 adding more grapes each time. Turns out I was able to get all 150 lbs in it and could probably have gotten 200. With reds after going through fermentation and having the enzymes working longer 200 should be no problem. BTW, I pressed to 2 bar.



How did you choose 2 bar? I have played around with press pressures too, from a low of 1 bar to a high of 2.5 bar where the pressure relief opens. There really isn't any guidance out there. I've settled on 1.5 bar and found there is essentially no more wine from 1.5 to 2 bar, or if there is any it's just a trickle out of the press. But I agree, the bladder press is a huge improvement overall.

Here is a tip to protect your bladder press in the "off season". I'm sure you have a 32 gallon Brute trash can. Invert that over the press and use a ratchet strap to keep it together. That keeps it from getting banged up during the 11 months that it isn't being used.


----------



## mainshipfred

CDrew said:


> How did you choose 2 bar? I have played around with press pressures too, from a low of 1 bar to a high of 2.5 bar where the pressure relief opens. There really isn't any guidance out there. I've settled on 1.5 bar and found there is essentially no more wine from 1.5 to 2 bar, or if there is any it's just a trickle out of the press. But I agree, the bladder press is a huge improvement overall.
> 
> Here is a tip to protect your bladder press in the "off season". I'm sure you have a 32 gallon Brute trash can. Invert that over the press and use a ratchet strap to keep it together. That keeps it from getting banged up during the 11 months that it isn't being used.
> 
> View attachment 66577



First of all I like what yo did to keep the press on the dolly, probably steal that idea. The winemakers told me to stop a .8 for the best quality juice. But what is .8? Is it when the pressure holds steady at .8. As the grapes relax the pressure drops. I went to 2 because I didn't like my yield and you're right after a certain point there is not much more juice to be extracted.


----------



## Boatboy24

Aaaaaannnnd, just like Christmas Eve, I'm ready for bed at 6pm on Crush Eve.


----------



## CDrew

Boatboy24 said:


> Aaaaaannnnd, just like Christmas Eve, I'm ready for bed at 6pm on Crush Eve.



What are you talking about? 2020 is already fermented, pressed and racked off the gross lees and nearly done with MLF!

(But have fun tomorrow with the grape santa)

And why is it that crush and fermentation are so fun, and bottling is such a chore?


----------



## jgmann67

CDrew said:


> What are you talking about? 2020 is already fermented, pressed and racked off the gross lees and nearly done with MLF!
> 
> (But have fun tomorrow with the grape santa)
> 
> And why is it that crush and fermentation are so fun, and bottling is such a chore?



I love bottling... and capsuling and labeling.

Going out to the garage to prep my fermenters.


----------



## Boatboy24

Soldiers clean, lined up and ready for battle. Grapes arrived a bit ago and word is they are in good shape (phew!). Sounds like several juice buckets weren't on the truck though and another delivery will be made next weekend. And there are apparently several buckets that nobody ordered. May have to bring some cash...


----------



## jgmann67

Home and the must had been dosed with llalzyme ex.

My good ph meter refuses to calibrate, though. And the difference between the good ph meter, and my cheap one is about.18. I think I’m going average them out and call it a deal. That puts my musts at approximately the following:

Malbec - 3.65. Sg is about 1.095
Cab-Merlot - 3.52 SG about 1.10 
Sangiovese - 3.41 SG 1.095. 

That’ll work.

I was going to field blend the Super Tuscan blend before fermentation. But, the largest fermenter I have is 32 gallons and I worry that nearly 29 gallons of wine will blow the top off of it when the cap forms. So, they’ll stay apart till after pressing.


----------



## mainshipfred

It was good seeing you Jim, hope you enjoy the barrel. My crush numbers are:

Petite Sirah - brix 24 - pH 3.78 probably going to take it to 6 to 6.5 and leave the brix alone.
Carignan - brix 17 - pH 3.71 
OVZ - brix 23.2 - pH 3.70 pretty much the same as the PS.

Not sure yet what I'll do with the Carignan, it's only one lug which will be blended with 4 lugs of OVZ after fermentation so I might leave it alone. I'll make my final decisions tomorrow after I take the readings again.


----------



## Boatboy24

Good seeing all of you today. Dad and I got back, had lunch, then got to work. Crush took just over an hour and cleanup about 45 minutes. Not too bad. Mrs Boatboy did jump in and crank the C/D for a few lugs. Much quieter event this year, with no other family or friends. Stupid COVID. Just hung on the deck with Dad for about an hour after we finished and had a beer. About that time, Mom showed up and we hung out there w/ Mrs Boatboy; enjoying the spectacular weather. We ordered some pizza and I opened up my last bottle of "Pahpy's Blend". This was one of three different blends we did in 2015 with Cab, Syrah and Petite Sirah and was my Dad's #1 choice of the 4 or 5 blends we tried during bench trials. Ultimately bottled 3 blends, but this one turned out best. It was really good. I just finished adding enzymes to the grapes and will measure Brix and pH in the morning, prior to pitching the yeast. Any required acid adjustments will be done as well.

All in all, this was a pretty good crush. The grapes were in very good shape, and going by taste, will make some very good wines. So far, extraction is good already - especially on the Zin and Merlot. Excited to see how things turn out.

Again, it was great seeing everyone, even if in masks. Looking forward to trying everyone's wines. And I'll post some pics tomorrow. The only one I have on my phone is the back of my car full of grapes. The rest are on Mrs. Boatboy's phone.


----------



## CDrew

mainshipfred said:


> Carignan - brix 17 - pH 3.71
> 
> Not sure yet what I'll do with the Carignan, it's only one lug which will be blended with 4 lugs of OVZ after fermentation so I might leave it alone. I'll make my final decisions tomorrow after I take the readings again.



That Carignan does not sound ripe. How do the seeds taste? I might keep it separate, for now. I know it's a small amount, but no reason to risk the larger amount by doing it all together.


----------



## franc1969

My juice buckets are still at 52°F at nearly 1am. Should be fermentable temps by morning, but the basement is only 63°F. Should be long cool ferments.
Got to pickup quite a bit later than intended. Apparently be there at 10:30 was interpreted as leave the house at 10:45. 
I'll be back again next Saturday to get the rest.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> It was good seeing you Jim, hope you enjoy the barrel. My crush numbers are:
> 
> Petite Sirah - brix 24 - pH 3.78 probably going to take it to 6 to 6.5 and leave the brix alone.
> Carignan - brix 17 - pH 3.71
> OVZ - brix 23.2 - pH 3.70 pretty much the same as the PS.
> 
> Not sure yet what I'll do with the Carignan, it's only one lug which will be blended with 4 lugs of OVZ after fermentation so I might leave it alone. I'll make my final decisions tomorrow after I take the readings again.



It was really good seeing you guys. I’ll want to read up on barrel prep again over the next couple weeks, make sure I know what I’m doing

I’ll make sure Craig gets that Tannat too. 

But I agree - that Carignan doesn sound ripe.

Over the time these grapes finish in the primary, I have to figure out how I’m going to set up my press (first time actually using a real one) and get about 30 gallons of finished wine in bottles.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Good seeing all of you today. Dad and I got back, had lunch, then got to work. Crush took just over an hour and cleanup about 45 minutes. Not too bad. Mrs Boatboy did jump in and crank the C/D for a few lugs. Much quieter event this year, with no other family or friends. Stupid COVID. Just hung on the deck with Dad for about an hour after we finished and had a beer. About that time, Mom showed up and we hung out there w/ Mrs Boatboy; enjoying the spectacular weather. We ordered some pizza and I opened up my last bottle of "Pahpy's Blend". This was one of three different blends we did in 2015 with Cab, Syrah and Petite Sirah and was my Dad's #1 choice of the 4 or 5 blends we tried during bench trials. Ultimately bottled 3 blends, but this one turned out best. It was really good. I just finished adding enzymes to the grapes and will measure Brix and pH in the morning, prior to pitching the yeast. Any required acid adjustments will be done as well.
> 
> All in all, this was a pretty good crush. The grapes were in very good shape, and going by taste, will make some very good wines. So far, extraction is good already - especially on the Zin and Merlot. Excited to see how things turn out.
> 
> Again, it was great seeing everyone, even if in masks. Looking forward to trying everyone's wines. And I'll post some pics tomorrow. The only one I have on my phone is the back of my car full of grapes. The rest are on Mrs. Boatboy's phone.



The Cab/Merlot are still pretty stiff. The Malbec and Sangio are breaking down very nicely. I know I’m not supposed to, but I stirred in the yeast and nutrient (rather than let it lay on top). Hoping for a slower start, longer finish and more time on the skins.

Wish I had someone who was interested in making wine here. Everyone in my house is only down for drinking it.


----------



## Boatboy24

Been in the lab the last couple hours, measuring and adjusting. Yeast starters are now going and I'll pitch shortly. Here are my numbers:

Cabernet Sauvignon: 23.2, 4.02 (adjusted down to 3.54)
Sangiovese: 22.8, 3.48 (no adjustments)
Merlot: 23.0, 3.81 (adjusted down to 3.57)
Cabernet Franc: 25.0, 4.02 (adjusted down to 3.38 )
Old Vine Zin: 23.6, 3.76 (adjusted down to 3.56)

I decided that I've been too passive about pH adjustments in the past. Previously, I probably would have only adjusted the CS and CF and even then, probably only down to 3.75 or 3.8. What shocked me was the change in the Cab Franc. The starting pH was the same as the Cab Sauv and I added exactly the same amount of tartaric acid to both. I'm going to stir and remeasure again before pitching the yeast - I hope I didn't screw that one up.

BTW, all adjustments targeted a finishing pH between 3.55 and 3.60 and the tartaric added was half of what I calculated I needed to get there.


----------



## mainshipfred

My morning numbers:

Carignan - 19.5, 3.59 
OVZ - 24.5, 3.59
PS - 25.2, 3.76

The Carignan and OVZ changed dramatically, PS not so much. Only going to adjust the PS down .2. Yeast cultures are made, going with:

Carignan - GRE to help with the vegetal characteristics due to the low brix.
OVZ - R56, AMH, D21, They all contribute to spices which I like in a ZIN.
PS - R56, Syrah, HD-S135 (Fermentis) All 3 are for big reds. Strangely enough I don't get any tannin structure from the PS so I'll probably add some tannins as well.


----------



## CDrew

@Boatboy24 

So for the CS, how many g/L did you add? That looks like a substantial adjustment. Just trying to calibrate my "what's normal" scale. My biggest add this year was 1.5g/L based on anticipated finished wine, but I'm will to adjust again at the mid winter rack.

I, too, have found an non-linear relationship, and especially at first noted a pH overshoot, which then a few hours later had settled at a higher number.


----------



## Boatboy24

CDrew said:


> @Boatboy24
> 
> So for the CS, how many g/L did you add? That looks like a substantial adjustment. Just trying to calibrate my "what's normal" scale. My biggest add this year was 1.5g/L based on anticipated finished wine, but I'm will to adjust again at the mid winter rack.
> 
> I, too, have found an non-linear relationship, and especially at first noted a pH overshoot, which then a few hours later had settled at a higher number.



It was 3 lugs of grapes, which I expect will produce a 7-7.5 gallons at press. Let's call it 27 liters. I added 54g of tartaric, which would give me an addition of 2g/L. After about a 90 minute rest and another stir, I remeasured the Cab Frank and it had come back up to 3.59. The Cab Sauv rose up to about 3.62.


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## Boatboy24

Oh, and if anyone's interested, here are my yeast selections:

Sangiovese: BM4X4
Merlot: D21
Cabernet Franc: D254
Cab Sauv: BM4X4
Zinfandel: RP15


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## Cynewulf

Nice seeing @Boatboy24 and @kvaden again, meeting @jgmann67, and thanks again to @mainshipfred for the ride and the crush yesterday. I got just a lug each of Carignan, Grenache, and Syrah, plus a bucket of Grenache. I think that the Grenache grapes may actually have been Grenache Gris, as they were awfully pink. I crushed everything together, keeping 10% ish of whole clusters and 3 gallons of the juice. I wish I’d taken measurements before adding the juice but it can’t be undone. The must measures 22 Brix and pH 3.45. No additions and I’m about to pitch the pied de cuve from what was left of the Cabernet Franc from my vineyard. Wish me luck.


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## jgmann67

Is the wide difference in the same grapes (for example, my Merlot vs yours) a product of sourcing grapes from different vineyards in Lodi? Or should I go back and test again??


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Is the wide difference in the same grapes (for example, my Merlot vs yours) a product of sourcing grapes from different vineyards in Lodi? Or should I go back and test again??



Did your Merlot have Cab mixed in?


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> My morning numbers:
> 
> Carignan - 19.5, 3.59
> OVZ - 24.5, 3.59
> PS - 25.2, 3.76
> 
> The Carignan and OVZ changed dramatically, PS not so much. Only going to adjust the PS down .2. Yeast cultures are made, going with:
> 
> Carignan - GRE to help with the vegetal characteristics due to the low brix.
> OVZ - R56, AMH, D21, They all contribute to spices which I like in a ZIN.
> PS - R56, Syrah, HD-S135 (Fermentis) All 3 are for big reds. Strangely enough I don't get any tannin structure from the PS so I'll probably add some tannins as well.



Make sure to keep an extra eye on that petite sirah with fermentis 135 so we can compare notes. Curious about Lag phase and max temp.

I had visible activity overnight but took 2 days for the 1st strong cap to punch. Didn’t know if was from yeast or from not hydrating.
And temp couldn’t quite breach 80°. (rarely I’m able). Think it peaked at 77° or 78°but oddly wasn’t until after the most vigorous portion was already passed


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Make sure to keep an extra eye on that petite sirah with fermentis 135 so we can compare notes. Curious about Lag phase and max temp.
> 
> I had visible activity overnight but took 2 days for the 1st strong cap to punch. Didn’t know if was from yeast or from not hydrating.
> And temp couldn’t quite breach 80°. (rarely I’m able). Think it peaked at 77° or 78°but oddly wasn’t until after the most vigorous portion was already passed



Will do, I did hydrate the yeast and used GoFerm. Inoculated around 1:00, will probably go back around 7 or 8 to see how things are going. My shop is around 70.


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## bluecrab

I picked up my grapes from Washington Winemakers, too. I added Lallzyme EX-V on Saturday. On Sunday, I stirred the must, gently blended a sample and filtered it, calibrated with fresh chemicals, and tested. Here are my numbers.

Cab Sav: 26 Brix, pH 4.07
Cab Franc: 26 Brix, pH 4.03
Malbec: 22 Brix, pH 4.11

The Malbec was unexpected, low Brix and high pH. On all varieties, I adjusted acid down to pH 3.4. I prefer 23 Brix, but I did not water back.


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## Boatboy24

bluecrab said:


> I picked up my grapes from Washington Winemakers, too. I added Lallzyme EX-V on Saturday. On Sunday, I stirred the must, gently blended a sample and filtered it, calibrated with fresh chemicals, and tested. Here are my numbers.
> 
> Cab Sav: 26 Brix, pH 4.07
> Cab Franc: 26 Brix, pH 4.03
> Malbec: 22 Brix, pH 4.11
> 
> The Malbec was unexpected, low Brix and high pH. On all varieties, I adjusted acid down to pH 3.4. I prefer 23 Brix, but I did not water back.



Our Cab Franc numbers aren't far apart, but interesting about the Cab Sauv. I had a similarly high pH (4.02), but only read 23.2 Brix.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Make sure to keep an extra eye on that petite sirah with fermentis 135 so we can compare notes. Curious about Lag phase and max temp.
> 
> I had visible activity overnight but took 2 days for the 1st strong cap to punch. Didn’t know if was from yeast or from not hydrating.
> And temp couldn’t quite breach 80°. (rarely I’m able). Think it peaked at 77° or 78°but oddly wasn’t until after the most vigorous portion was already passed



At 5am about 16 hours after pitching of the 7 ferments the 135 had the largest cap by far. About 6-7" thick in a 10 gallon brute with about 6 gallons of must. R56 was next with about 4" and the rest 2-3" Temps in all of them 71-73 and the shop temp 69. I'll start tracking the SG progress this evening.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Our Cab Franc numbers aren't far apart, but interesting about the Cab Sauv. I had a similarly high pH (4.02), but only read 23.2 Brix.



Similarly our Zin numbers are quite different. Don't know if it makes any difference but before taking the readings yesterday I transferred the must back and forth to try to get a more homogenous mixture for the readings.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Did your Merlot have Cab mixed in?


Yes, mixed the two.


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Similarly our Zin numbers are quite different. Don't know if it makes any difference but before taking the readings yesterday I transferred the must back and forth to try to get a more homogenous mixture for the readings.



I thought they were reasonably close, but attributed the difference to the fact that we probably mixed differently. In the future, I may take 3 or 4 measurements and average them. On a couple of the wines yesterday, I did take a second. But they were the same in both cases. 

I will say that using the SC-300 is pure joy. I hadn't used it in a while (it's been stored in solution), so I dunked it into some 4.01 calibration standard before I got started. It locked right in at 4.01.


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Yes, mixed the two.



Well, that explains it.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, that explains it.



it does??


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> it does??



Were the numbers you posted for your Merlot only, or the mix of the two?


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Were the numbers you posted for your Merlot only, or the mix of the two?



A mix - i crushed them together into the same fermenter.


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> A mix - i crushed them together into the same fermenter.



And mine was Merlot only.


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## Cynewulf

Checked this morning about 17 hours after inoculating with the pied de cuve and had about a 3-4” cap and sg at 1.08 down from 1.096.


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## mainshipfred

Cynewulf said:


> Checked this morning about 17 hours after inoculating with the pied de cuve and had about a 3-4” cap and sg at 1.08 down from 1.096. View attachment 66696



What's your punch down tool?


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## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> What's your punch down tool?


It’s a 6” piece of oak baseboard molding screwed to a 36” oak dowel. I think it cost me $7 in parts from Home Depot.


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## Boatboy24

Just finished my first punchdowns and added a half dose of Fermaid O. Off to the races! Tomorrow, I'll pitch MLB.


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## jgmann67

Yesterday was a busy day in the garage. Fed the wines some Fermaid O before dinner. Then pitched my MLB last night before bed. Caps are solid.

Will need to do an SG test to see where we are, but things are moving along nicely. Using the cool garage was a great idea.

I’ll need to revisit the pH when active fermentation is done I guess.


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## Boatboy24

Rehydrated my VP41 with Acti-ML after work and while that was gearing up, I added Opti-Malo to each batch. Caps are big this evening. I'll start to measure SG daily tomorrow and will also add the remainder of the nutrient. Weekend plans and the potential arrival of hurricane remnants are forcing me to keep my head on a swivel regarding when to press. Originally scheduled for Sunday, but it might just happen on Saturday.


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## franc1969

I have to say- rehydrating with Go-Ferm has really wowed me. The yeasts had what seemed to be no lag time at all. Three of my juices are 2/3 done at under 48 hours. Even the Zinfandel/Assmanhausen is moving fast, over 50%. I added the nutrients at the start, missed the 1/3 break completely on all to add any more. I expected the QA23 might move faster than I could get home Tuesday, but wow.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Make sure to keep an extra eye on that petite sirah with fermentis 135 so we can compare notes. Curious about Lag phase and max temp.
> 
> I had visible activity overnight but took 2 days for the 1st strong cap to punch. Didn’t know if was from yeast or from not hydrating.
> And temp couldn’t quite breach 80°. (rarely I’m able). Think it peaked at 77° or 78°but oddly wasn’t until after the most vigorous portion was already passed



I started this spreadsheet for the progress of the different yeasts I'm using. Kind of interesting seeing the progressions. The starting gravity is based on brix readings which are not as accurate so there may be a little contradiction between the initial and first reading. They were all re-hydrated using Go-Ferm. I'll take another set of readings this evening and again tomorrow morning.


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## jgmann67

Checked my SG last night. The Sangiovese is really cooking along. All three wines were in the 1.04 to 1.05 range. Going to feed the wine this morning. 

I’ll have to recheck pH after I clear the wines. Hopefully my readings were close.

I might keep the wines on the skins until next weekend.


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## mainshipfred

Morning readings, snapped the lids on the OVZ and Carignan with air locks. The PS is in 10 gallon brutes so nothing I can do except them covered. A little concerned with the BA11 Viognier in the cooler, however it is slowly but steadily dropping. Depending what it reads this evening I may take it out of the cooler to finish.


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## Boatboy24

Fed last night and things are really rolling this morning. You could hear all 5 fermenters rumbling. I still haven't measured SG, but will today at some point. Like @jgmann67 , my Sangiovese seems to be winning the race so far. 

Looks like things will fall into place for a press on Sunday, though still not certain.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Fed last night and things are really rolling this morning. You could hear all 5 fermenters rumbling. I still haven't measured SG, but will today at some point. Like @jgmann67 , my Sangiovese seems to be winning the race so far.
> 
> Looks like things will fall into place for a press on Sunday, though still not certain.



Mine are chugging along faster than I expected. Might press as early as tomorrow evening.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Mine are chugging along faster than I expected. Might press as early as tomorrow evening.



How many days on the skins would that be?


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> How many days on the skins would that be?



If you count Saturday and Friday it would make 6 days. I used Opti Red, Booster Rouge and FT Rouge and the color is very nice. Extremely dark for the PS and about what you would expect on the ZIN.


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> What's your punch down tool?


Since you’re interested in punch down tools, Fred, I thought I’d share a couple of short videos from one of my favorite wineries: Clos Fantine in Faugères. You’ll get to see how they use the ‘pigeou artisanale de Clos Fantine’ in their huge cement tanks. If you’re curious, towards the end of the first video she says something like ‘In this tank this year it was juice at the beginning and we did a délestage. After that we left it alone and didn’t touch anything. Now we’re at the point of removing it from the tank so we’ll do a punch down so the juice rises back into the cap and makes it more liquid.’

In the second video they explain they only punch down once or twice total because they prefer to leave the must ‘tranquil.’


----------



## Ajmassa

Cynewulf said:


> Since you’re interested in punch down tools, Fred, I thought I’d share a couple of short videos from one of my favorite wineries: Clos Fantine in Faugères. You’ll get to see how they use the ‘pigeou artisanale de Clos Fantine’ in their huge cement tanks. If you’re curious, towards the end of the first video she says something like ‘In this tank this year it was juice at the beginning and we did a délestage. After that we left it alone and didn’t touch anything. Now we’re at the point of removing it from the tank so we’ll do a punch down so the juice rises back into the cap and makes it more liquid.’
> 
> In the second video they explain they only punch down once or twice because they prefer to leave the must ‘tranquil.’



Great videos. A shame they can’t do pumpovers in the cement tanks. He’s gonna be working those tanks all day long! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Cynewulf

Ajmassa said:


> Great videos. A shame they can’t do pumpovers in the cement tanks. He’s gonna be working those tanks all day long! Thanks for sharing.


Yeah, no doubt. At the beginning of the second video, the guy with the camera says, ‘And so after an hour and a half of effort, the cap has been pierced.’ My understanding is this particular winery doesn’t use any pumps; everything is done with gravity. As best I can tell, they do just one délestage (which also must be a pain without a pump), then seal it up for however long fermentation is going to take, then finish with the one punch down at décuvage. So at least he doesn’t have to do it every day. Having had a few bottles over the years, I will say the results are delicious.


----------



## mainshipfred

I've always thought if the skins are left to the open air if will cause spoilage organisms primarily acetic bacteria.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I've always thought if the skins are left to the open air if will cause spoilage organisms primarily acetic bacteria.


If it’s a sealed cement tank though is that the same thing as open air? That space is filled with some seriously strong gasses. I guess that would prevent the bacteria.

And delestage is an interesting technique not often utilized at home. But anyone who uses some type of racking pipe filter is more then capable to doing it. Then I guess after some time passed just dump back in on top of the skins. While still punching down routinely?
The act itself is very doable. But fguring out what grapes would benefit, how often to do it, and would it even be worth it—- that’s another story.


----------



## Cynewulf

Ajmassa said:


> If it’s a sealed cement tank though is that the same thing as open air? That space is filled with some seriously strong gasses. I guess that would prevent the bacteria.


Indeed. In a couple of these videos when people look in the opening at the grapes they’re warned about getting too close as they get hit in the face by carbon dioxide.


----------



## franc1969

My Albarino and Viognier are getting close. Tomorrow evening or Saturday I will combine the fermenting carboys to settle out yeasts. I have each split into two to ferment. Zinfandel with Assmanhausen is surprisingly almost done as well. Syrah slowed, I hope it will finish up without issues. I am probably just unfamiliar with how the yeast is progressing, though it did blast past and I missed the timing for extra nutrients.
I was supposed to be back on Saturday for Malvasia that missed the last truck. Then it was unavailable and substituted Muscat- which ended up not happening as Delta sent truck short again, and without notice. Jim is going to pick up some buckets from S&S as replacements, particularly as part of what has gone missing again is his own juice. I gave some possibles but really am not sure what I will be getting. Something will work out. The possibles were all from next year's projects, but I'd planned to get juice and grapes so I'd have skins. At this rate I could have gone to pick up Italian juice, but really don't have time to run to Gino Pinto.


----------



## Boatboy24

Here are this morning's numbers:

Cab Sauv: 1.016 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 23.2)

Sangiovese: 1.004 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 22.8)

Merlot: 1.022 (D21, starting Brix of 23.0)

Cab Franc: 1.036 (D254, starting Brix of 25)

Zin: 1.008 (RP15, starting Brix of 23.6)

I'm not sure what to do. Thinking I should press the Sangio and Zin tomorrow (Saturday), but it's a busy day and I absolutely hate the thought of setting up and cleaning up twice. A little concerned about the Cab Franc. Thoughts?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Here are this morning's numbers:
> 
> Cab Sauv: 1.016 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 23.2)
> 
> Sangiovese: 1.004 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 22.8)
> 
> Merlot: 1.022 (D21, starting Brix of 23.0)
> 
> Cab Franc: 1.036 (D254, starting Brix of 25)
> 
> Zin: 1.008 (RP15, starting Brix of 23.6)
> 
> I'm not sure what to do. Thinking I should press the Sangio and Zin tomorrow (Saturday), but it's a busy day and I absolutely hate the thought of setting up and cleaning up twice. A little concerned about the Cab Franc. Thoughts?



lots of CO2 in those wines. If it’s me (and it likely will be when I take readings tonight), I’d cover those wines, keep the bugs away and go one more day into Sunday. Press everything in one day.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Here are this morning's numbers:
> 
> Cab Sauv: 1.016 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 23.2)
> 
> Sangiovese: 1.004 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 22.8)
> 
> Merlot: 1.022 (D21, starting Brix of 23.0)
> 
> Cab Franc: 1.036 (D254, starting Brix of 25)
> 
> Zin: 1.008 (RP15, starting Brix of 23.6)
> 
> I'm not sure what to do. Thinking I should press the Sangio and Zin tomorrow (Saturday), but it's a busy day and I absolutely hate the thought of setting up and cleaning up twice. A little concerned about the Cab Franc. Thoughts?


You can let those suckers go another day or two for sure, even when they are done fermenting, you've got days of CO2 in there. I'd wait til Sunday and do the ones that are below 1.000, the rest when they are all below. Or just let em all go for several days for a little mini EM........


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Here are this morning's numbers:
> 
> Cab Sauv: 1.016 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 23.2)
> 
> Sangiovese: 1.004 (BM4X4, starting Brix of 22.8)
> 
> Merlot: 1.022 (D21, starting Brix of 23.0)
> 
> Cab Franc: 1.036 (D254, starting Brix of 25)
> 
> Zin: 1.008 (RP15, starting Brix of 23.6)
> 
> I'm not sure what to do. Thinking I should press the Sangio and Zin tomorrow (Saturday), but it's a busy day and I absolutely hate the thought of setting up and cleaning up twice. A little concerned about the Cab Franc. Thoughts?



Keep in mind the Cab Franc had the highest brix so to me it makes sense it is the furthest behind.


----------



## jgmann67

While caps are still forming, they are not nearly as tall or firm. The sangio is the weakest of the three. The Malbec is in the middle and the Cab/Merlot is the most firm. Makes sense.

I’m going to make some blocks for my press today in preparation for tomorrow or Monday.


----------



## mainshipfred

This will be the last post of my numbers since I'm pressing today. For me it was an interesting exercise seeing the progression of the different yeasts.


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> This will be the last post of my numbers since I'm pressing today. For me it was an interesting exercise seeing the progression of the different yeasts.


Looking good, Fred. How do you get the odd numbers on your readings? Just when it appears to be between two hash marks?


----------



## mainshipfred

Cynewulf said:


> Looking good, Fred. How do you get the odd numbers on your readings? Just when it appears to be between two hash marks?



That plus I have a finish hydrometer which reads more accurately.


----------



## Cynewulf

mainshipfred said:


> That plus I have a finish hydrometer which reads more accurately.


Got it. I think I need one of those. Now that my must is below 1.000 everything is slowing down and it’s getting harder to read the changes.


----------



## mainshipfred

Cynewulf said:


> Got it. I think I need one of those. Now that my must is below 1.000 everything is slowing down and it’s getting harder to read the changes.



I reads 1.020 to .990. Pretty nice to have.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> This will be the last post of my numbers since I'm pressing today. For me it was an interesting exercise seeing the progression of the different yeasts.



Wow! Huge difference on your two Viognier batches. Are they both still in the cooler?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Wow! Huge difference on your two Viognier batches. Are they both still in the cooler?



They are, didn't check today too busy pressing.


----------



## franc1969

mainshipfred said:


> That plus I have a finish hydrometer which reads more accurately.


I'd like to see this, for reference. I don't know if you have posted a photo before. Where did you buy this?


----------



## mainshipfred

There are many to choose from, here is one example. I would recommend the polycarbonate ones though since the neck is so thin. I broke 2 glass ones before going to the poly. 



Amazon.com


----------



## franc1969

Thanks, I must have never really looked before.


mainshipfred said:


> There are many to choose from, here is one example. I would recommend the polycarbonate ones though since the neck is so thin. I broke 2 glass ones before going to the poly.
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com


----------



## Boatboy24

Did the final punchdowns this morning and now can't get this out of my head:


----------



## Boatboy24

Well, the 2020 Crush/Press is in the record books. Things are moving along very well and for where they are in the process, the wines are tasting and smelling pretty darn good. Tried something a little different this year for press. Prior to Dad showing up, I vacuum racked all the free run out of the wines using the GHT and AI1. So when he got here, all we had to do was load the press and then, well, press. (And of course, clean up). Since I wasn't busy vacuum racking and multi-tasking while dad was loading the press, I was able to clean the fermenters while he was doing that. We pressed ~a quarter ton of grapes, split into 5 batches in just over two hours - all with my 18L press. I'm still worn out, but feel that we continue to find ways to shave time off the process every time. As I said when we finished: "The hard work is done now and we can sort of relax". I'll have some racking to do in a few days, but that's relatively easy. 

BTW: Thanks @mainshipfred for the loaner carboys at the last minute. As it turns out, I did have enough - I had moved two 6 gallon carboys to an out-of-the-way spot in the basement to make room for the fermenters and press process and 'found' them shortly after I got back from seeing you. As my grandmother always said: "Too much efficiency causes inefficiency.". But your 7 gallon carboys came in very handy and helped to reduce the number of containers needed.

When we finished, we sampled the 2019 Old Vine Zin and Touriga Nacional. Super pleased with them so far. Also tried the 2018's (Zin, Cab Sauv, Syrah and Petit Sirah) and really looking forward to the blending trials in a few weeks.


----------



## jgmann67

Punched the grapes late last night and will hit them again this morning. Planning on pressing them around 10:00 ish. My buddy and my daughter’s fiancé are coming over to help with the process.

After I punch the grapes I’ll start staging equipment - the press, buckets, etc. this is the first time using a real press. I should probably go watch a few videos on YouTube before the day gets away from me.

I haven’t used my GHT in a few years because of the way the butt press is setup. I always get a clean, junk free, press with it.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Punched the grapes late last night and will hit them again this morning. Planning on pressing them around 10:00 ish. My buddy and my daughter’s fiancé are coming over to help with the process.
> 
> After I punch the grapes I’ll start staging equipment - the press, buckets, etc. this is the first time using a real press. I should probably go watch a few videos on YouTube before the day gets away from me.
> 
> I haven’t used my GHT in a few years because of the way the butt press is setup. I always get a clean, junk free, press with it.



Have fun, nice when you get help.


----------



## jgmann67

Started my day by clearing out a work area in the garage. It was going to rain pretty much all day. Set up my work table and starting bringing equipment up from the basement - press, buckets, carboys, AIO, etc.

Didn’t get any more bottling done unfortunately... and the LHBS is closed on Mondays, so I didn’t have the selection of carboys I was hoping to have. I had enough, sure. But my 3 gallon carboys were unavailable.

My buddy Burns showed up to help out. My daughter and her fiancé couldn’t make it because of work meetings (they came over for dinner later).

I started with the Sangiovese because it was going to give me the greatest yield... it did. About 11.5 gallons. The Cab/Merlot and the Malbec each gave up around 10 gallons.

The Malbec was a very clean press.

The wines tasted pretty damned good, too. Very happy with this year’s wines. From first scoop to clean up, with a lunch break in between, we were done in 4 hours. Just in time for me to shower, go get an MRI and come home to butcher a tenderloin into filets. We had the 2017 Meritage, a 2016 Petite Sirah and a Rose with dinner.

My shoulders are sore. Didn’t expect that. But, I’m happy with the new press. I’ll get to moving the wines around and doing some testing in the next day or two.

slept like a stone.


----------



## Johnd

Nice looking batch @jgmann67 !! Four hours isn’t bad at all, you really got some nice colors out of your grapes. Just curious since we both started making wine from kits and progressed to grapes, how are you enjoying the wine from grape side of winemaking, and how you feel the final product will measure up.


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> Nice looking batch @jgmann67 !! Four hours isn’t bad at all, you really got some nice colors out of your grapes. Just curious since we both started making wine from kits and progressed to grapes, how are you enjoying the wine from grape side of winemaking, and how you feel the final product will measure up.



i still feel like I have a long way to go before my wines from grapes are where I want them to be. The wines from kits are predictably better so far.

The petite sirah I made in 2016 is just starting to drink the way it should. And the meritage from 2017 isn’t what I was hoping it would be (terrible time with MLF).

The 2018 OVZ is going in the bottle this fall. It tastes a little flat - going to check pH again and maybe adjust itand sit on it another month or so before bottling.

The 2019 Cab-Syrah blend is actually very good. The best yet. I may bottle that this winter after a couple weeks in the barrel. 

These grapes have been trouble free so far (knock wood). The extraction of color, especially in the Malbec, is phenomenal.

I need to see if my MLF took off and recheck pH. But they tasted pretty good out of the press. So, fingers crossed.


----------



## Boatboy24

Looking good, Jim!

My Sangiovese was the best yield of the bunch as well. From 3 lugs each:

Zin: 7.5 gallons
Cab Sauv: 7.75
Cab Franc: 7.25
Sangio: 8.25
Merlot: 7.75


----------



## Chuck E

@jgmann67 
I have the same press as you. The spacer blocks tend to move around when I press. Do you put any sort of slippery spacer under the ratchet to keep the blocks aligned?


----------



## jgmann67

Chuck E said:


> @jgmann67
> I have the same press as you. The spacer blocks tend to move around when I press. Do you put any sort of slippery spacer under the ratchet to keep the blocks aligned?



this was our first time using the press and we had the same issues as you did. The extra set of hands helped a lot. But, we’re already talking about ways to engineer around the slippage (maybe making half moon top plates, and adding washers to the ratchet mechanism).


----------



## jgmann67

Chromo is back. I think it looks great. Will leave the wine sit on the fine lees, and stirring every couple of days for the next few weeks.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Chromo is back. I think it looks great. Will leave the wine sit on the fine lees, and stirring every couple of days for the next few weeks.



Moving along rather nicely.


----------



## stickman

@Chuck E @jgmann67 I have a basket press and found that the spacer blocks have to be wet, if dry they will slip around. I didn't get a good look at your ratchet so I'm not sure if it is significantly different than mine.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to introduce the Class of Two Thousand Twenty:




Finally got everything racked this morning. Will probably do the Sangiovese one more time, as I pulled in some sediment. All in all, pretty good yield. Things are smelling and tasting great. Tiny bubbles present in all carboys. I did a co-inoculation on the 6th, so I'll likely run chromatography Halloween weekend.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to introduce the Class of Two Thousand Twenty:
> 
> View attachment 67149
> 
> 
> Finally got everything racked this morning. Will probably do the Sangiovese one more time, as I pulled in some sediment. All in all, pretty good yield. Things are smelling and tasting great. Tiny bubbles present in all carboys. I did a co-inoculation on the 6th, so I'll likely run chromatography Halloween weekend.



As my fam would say— that’s beauTEEful !

I think I see 11gal yields for the merlot and sangio
And 7gal yields for Zin, CS, & CF- correct?

What was the starting amount? 5lugs for merlot and sangio? And the rest 3lugs ea.?


----------



## jgmann67

That really does look awesome. I stirred mine yesterday before heading out. Feeling like I want to get it off the fine lees this week or next and put the Super Tuscan together.

Good lunch with the Chromotography.It seems this year’s grapes get high marks all the way around. Should be some fantastic wine in a few years.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa said:


> As my fam would say— that’s beauTEEful !
> 
> I think I see 11gal yields for the merlot and sangio
> And 7gal yields for Zin, CS, & CF- correct?
> 
> What was the starting amount? 5lugs for merlot and sangio? And the rest 3lugs ea.?



3 lugs for all of 'em. That's 8gal for the Merlot and Sangio.


----------



## heatherd

Boatboy24 said:


> Good seeing all of you today. Dad and I got back, had lunch, then got to work. Crush took just over an hour and cleanup about 45 minutes. Not too bad. Mrs Boatboy did jump in and crank the C/D for a few lugs. Much quieter event this year, with no other family or friends. Stupid COVID. Just hung on the deck with Dad for about an hour after we finished and had a beer. About that time, Mom showed up and we hung out there w/ Mrs Boatboy; enjoying the spectacular weather. We ordered some pizza and I opened up my last bottle of "Pahpy's Blend". This was one of three different blends we did in 2015 with Cab, Syrah and Petite Sirah and was my Dad's #1 choice of the 4 or 5 blends we tried during bench trials. Ultimately bottled 3 blends, but this one turned out best. It was really good. I just finished adding enzymes to the grapes and will measure Brix and pH in the morning, prior to pitching the yeast. Any required acid adjustments will be done as well.
> 
> All in all, this was a pretty good crush. The grapes were in very good shape, and going by taste, will make some very good wines. So far, extraction is good already - especially on the Zin and Merlot. Excited to see how things turn out.
> 
> Again, it was great seeing everyone, even if in masks. Looking forward to trying everyone's wines. And I'll post some pics tomorrow. The only one I have on my phone is the back of my car full of grapes. The rest are on Mrs. Boatboy's phone.


I'm really bummed that I missed you guys! I had it in my mind that I'd ordered Malvasia Blanca juice, which was short, when I'd actually ordered Albarino which was there on day 1 of pick-up. So I went on 10/17 and it was just me and my fam. Did you guys get any additional stuff beyond what you ordered?


----------



## jgmann67

heatherd said:


> I'm really bummed that I missed you guys! I had it in my mind that I'd ordered Malvasia Blanca juice, which was short, when I'd actually ordered Albarino which was there on day 1 of pick-up. So I went on 10/17 and it was just me and my fam. Did you guys get any additional stuff beyond what you ordered?



I asked and there was nothing extra to snap up unfortunately.

We still haven’t formally met yet. Let’s hope there’s an opportunity sooner than later to swap bottles and stories.


----------



## heatherd

jgmann67 said:


> I asked and there was nothing extra to snap up unfortunately.
> 
> We still haven’t formally met yet. Let’s hope there’s an opportunity sooner than later to swap bottles and stories.


Yep, hopefully next fall things will be better and we can all get together. I stuck bottles in my Jeep to swap at WW pick-up but alas no. Next fall I suspect I'll do some more grapes again. Pick of 2019 Touriga Nacional crush/pick-up with Craig, me, and Fred to prove I exist.


----------



## Boatboy24

I didn't get anything beyond what I'd ordered. They did have several buckets of unlabeled red juice, but I think that was it. If they had extra Albarino, I would have likely left with some.


----------



## jgmann67

Got a wild hair last night and decided to go ahead bring the kids down to the basement and rack them off the goop. Too much headspace in the carboys for my tastes. I went out and bought a 3 gallon, and had a 6 gallon open. After some consternation, I figured out the order to rack everything so it fit better. 

Yielded about 11 gallons of Malbec (will likely be closer to 10 at next rack); and 18.5 gallons on Super Tuscan blend (which will drop to 17 -ish at next rack).

No activity that I could see. But it’s been cool in the garage Moving to the basement should help with that.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> this was our first time using the press and we had the same issues as you did. The extra set of hands helped a lot. But, we’re already talking about ways to engineer around the slippage (maybe making half moon top plates, and adding washers to the ratchet mechanism).



If I'm understanding the issue correctly I would make the following recommendation. Remove the ratchet pins and hand crank it until you get adequate pressure on the blocks then reinsert the pins and start ratcheting. I also start by hand pressing the half blocks.


----------



## mainshipfred

Picked up and crushed 235 lbs of Tannat today. Got 28 - 30 gallons of must in 4 ten gallon fermenters. Thursday or Friday the Petit Verdot will be harvested and Saturday or Sunday the Norton. Going to do a similar quantity of both. Now all I need which I'm probably too late for is Syrah and Cab Franc. With my new normal quantity of 200+ lbs I need more 10 gallon fermenters, the 6 gallons just don't cut it, unless I put 4 gallons in each which would be 8 fermenters per varietal. So this year, including spring, minus the angels share I'll end up with:
15 gal Shiraz (spring)
14 gal Cab Sauv (spring)
8 gal Viognier
13 gal Petite Sirah
14 gal OVZ
20 gal Tannat (hopefully)
20 gal Petit Verdot (hopefully)
20 gal Norton (hopefully)


----------



## buzi

Boatboy24 said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor to introduce the Class of Two Thousand Twenty:
> 
> View attachment 67149
> 
> 
> Finally got everything racked this morning. Will probably do the Sangiovese one more time, as I pulled in some sediment. All in all, pretty good yield. Things are smelling and tasting great. Tiny bubbles present in all carboys. I did a co-inoculation on the 6th, so I'll likely run chromatography Halloween weekend.



Are you cutting back this year!?!


----------



## Chuck E

mainshipfred said:


> If I'm understanding the issue correctly I would make the following recommendation. Remove the ratchet pins and hand crank it until you get adequate pressure on the blocks then reinsert the pins and start ratcheting. I also start by hand pressing the half blocks.



I will try that next time. I was thinking of placing a piece of Teflon in between the ratchet and the spacer blocks.


----------



## Ajmassa

My top blocks are cut to fit snug around the threads and allow just about full surface contact of the ratchet bottom. Not sure but this might make a difference. I don’t get any slippage issues. I do like Fred said. Hand push round tops and get ratchet and blocks all snugged up before cranking


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa said:


> My top blocks are cut to fit snug around the threads and allow just about full surface contact of the ratchet bottom. Not sure but this might make a difference. I don’t get any slippage issues. I do like Fred said. Hand push round tops and get ratchet and blocks all snugged up before crankingView attachment 67216



thats exactly what my buddy and I were thinking.


----------



## mainshipfred

Picked up some beautiful Petit Verdot today, wish I had taken pics. Off the vine it was 25 brix and 3.43 pH. Every cluster would have qualified for the cover of any magazine. I'm going to be very disappointed if I screw this one up.


----------



## jgmann67

Thought I was done for the season. Interesting development - I may have a line on some decent quality Pennsylvania Cab Franc. Is anyone local interested? 

If that falls through and it’s not to be this year, it will definitely be next year.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Thought I was done for the season. Interesting development - I may have a line on some decent quality Pennsylvania Cab Franc. Is anyone local interested?
> 
> If that falls through and it’s not to be this year, it will definitely be next year.



Keep that networking close at hand. Even without yeast they seem to multiply.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Picked up some beautiful Petit Verdot today, wish I had taken pics. Off the vine it was 25 brix and 3.43 pH. Every cluster would have qualified for the cover of any magazine. I'm going to be very disappointed if I screw this one up.



Wow! Great numbers! Pics or it didn't happen. 

PS: your carboys are cleaned and ready with KMeta in them. I'll touch base toward the end of the week - can bring 'em by Friday eve or Saturday morning.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Thought I was done for the season. Interesting development - I may have a line on some decent quality Pennsylvania Cab Franc. Is anyone local interested?
> 
> If that falls through and it’s not to be this year, it will definitely be next year.



Do you deliver?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Do you deliver?



No. But we’re a hospitable bunch for northerners.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Wow! Great numbers! Pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> PS: your carboys are cleaned and ready with KMeta in them. I'll touch base toward the end of the week - can bring 'em by Friday eve or Saturday morning.



No hurry, whatever is best for you.


----------



## mainshipfred

Got a call from a vineyard telling me they had Norton available, I thought I was done for the season but can't pass up Norton. The grapes weren't in the best of shape and starting to raison. The brix from a few berries was 22.5 and was told the pH was all over the place depending on which block they came from. I'll check that tomorrow as well as recheck the brix and make the proper adjustments. I'm looking at this to see what I've learned over the years and what kind of wine I can make out of a less than desirable fruit.


----------



## Ignoble Grape

*Summary Report for 2020:*

150 lbs direct-press whole cluster Chardonnay - Made 10 gallons buttery Chard, and about 10 bottles of pet-nat sparkling wine - hoping to avoid smoke taint
150 lbs of direct-press whole cluster Merlot for 9 gl. of Rose - hoping to avoid smoke taint
300 lbs Merlot - likely smoke taint
54 lbs of Cab from a friend's vineyard - yielded 4 gallons juice - very likely smoke taint, fermented on heavy-toast American Oak chips
230 lbs Petite Verdot - Split into 2 ferments with different yeast/oak - likely smoke taint
500 lbs Cabernet - Split into 3 ferements with different yeast/oak - only one I'm not worried about smoke
5 gallons piquette made from the Cab/Petite Verdot pomace - because why not? It's a COVID kind of experiment. ;-]

All-in-all, this has kept my weekends full from late July-now. The irony is that it was the most work I've done with different ferments going, and aside from the 500 lbs of Cab, it could all be for naught with the fires. Hedged my bets where possible and now the waiting begins.

Used the new bladder press - very, very good purchase. Will not go back to the basket press. My upper arms thank me.




Chard- happily cool fermenting for about 20 days... wonderful tropical aromas.




Look at that must! You can almost smell it...



Glorious day out in Carmel Valley, CA



Putting those new-to-me stainless steall variable capacity tanks to good use - two are filled, with one empty for racking - will see if I can get a welder to put in outlet valves about 4 inches up after I empty them next fall. Also need to figure out a way to warm them up a little. 




Rose and Chard - done. 



Aaaaand one more pic of happy grapes from 2020!


----------



## CDrew

Wow. Great year in the winery. Congrats.


----------



## jgmann67

Well, I finally got around to moving the wine off the finer lees and hitting it with kmeta. MLF came out beautifully and the wines taste very good (particularly the Malbec).

I plan to move the wines through the barrel starting next week. Probably the Malbec first. Doing the math in my head - 11 gallons of Malbec; about 18 gallons of the blend; and an 8 gallon barrel.

I figure doing the Malbec first and letting it sit an extra week, that way I can blend together the oaked and unoaked wines. The blend will be a lot easier.

Thinking too about my barrel schedule - first run through the barrel - 6-8 weeks; second run - 8-10: third run - 10-12; and if there’s time before next year’s grapes I’m thinking of pushing the 2019 cab-syrah through the barrel for a bit.

comments always welcome.


----------



## jgmann67

It starts...


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> It starts...



Get yourself one of these. A piece of 2x4 screwed into the carpeted sides gives enough 'sidewall' to keep a barrel in place. Very handy and makes moving around super easy.









18 In. x 12 In. 1000 lb. Capacity Hardwood Dolly


Amazing deals on this 18In X 12In 1000Lb Wood Dolly at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




www.harborfreight.com


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Get yourself one of these. A piece of 2x4 screwed into the carpeted sides gives enough 'sidewall' to keep a barrel in place. Very handy and makes moving around super easy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18 In. x 12 In. 1000 lb. Capacity Hardwood Dolly
> 
> 
> Amazing deals on this 18In X 12In 1000Lb Wood Dolly at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.harborfreight.com



Im going to stop at HF on my way home. Thank you!!!


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Im going to stop at HF on my way home. Thank you!!!



Did you end up getting one? I meant to send a pic of what I was talking about w/ the 2x4s.


----------



## stickman

Not only a nice barrel, that's also a nice piece of furniture.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Did you end up getting one? I meant to send a pic of what I was talking about w/ the 2x4s.
> 
> View attachment 71454



Not yet. Going to run over today after my dr’s Appt. I like that a lot though. Off the floor and easy to move.

How often should I check and top a new barrel? I’m going to check it weekly and have a 1.5L bottle in the fridge to used to top. Should be plenty (hopefully).


----------



## mainshipfred

If it were me I would check it weekly for the first few weeks to a month to see how it reacts with the humidity and make your decision then. But I would guess every month or two would be fine.


----------



## Boatboy24

Agree with Fred. It'll suck up a little more than normal the first week or two, but settle into a fairly predictable pattern after that. I have to check more frequently in the winter due to the lower humidity.


----------



## jgmann67

After 1 week, it sucked up about 300 ml. Not bad. Topped and put the bung back in. We had off today so I went out to the garage to cut up some 2x4. Very happy with it:


----------



## mainshipfred

How long did you keep it filled with water before you put the wine in? I usually let it sit 24 hrs.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> How long did you keep it filled with water before you put the wine in? I usually let it sit 24 hrs.




Yep - 24 hours filled with spring water. I did that after running a couple gallons of hot spring water in it to seal things up.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Yep - 24 hours filled with spring water. I did that after running a couple gallons of hot spring water in it to seal things up.



Ya know, I never really thought about it, but our public water supply does contain chlorine. I wonder if I should be using something else to break in a barrel.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Ya know, I never really thought about it, but our public water supply does contain chlorine. I wonder if I should be using something else to break in a barrel.



The tutorial videos I watched used filtered tap water to screen out chlorine and other hard stuff, so I figured I’d just go right to the spring water instead.

I’m having a bit of an emergency with my 2019 Cab-Syrah blend. Last year, it was tasting pretty great. But things got away from me and I left the wine on the oak cubes for an extended period of time. I believe I had something bacterial going on because I started to see floaters at the top of the carboy. I racked and dozed the wine. But, I tasted the wine last night and it had a sour nose and taste.

I’ve been kicking myself every time I look at those carboys. If my wine is turning to vinegar, is there anything I can do???


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Ya know, I never really thought about it, but our public water supply does contain chlorine. I wonder if I should be using something else to break in a barrel.



Maybe I'm just lucky I've not noticed any negative affects yet. Plus I've always heard the K-meta/sulfite solution somehow gets rid of the chlorine. It takes a lot of water to fill a 30, 40 or 50 liter barrel. Then you have cleaning the barrels which you have no choice but to use city water. I not sure what other choices we have.


----------



## jgmann67

The Malbec has been in the barrel going on three weeks. I’m going to give it another taste at week four. At week two, I could tast the oak, but it’s not very strong. The wine was also a little sour. Going to check pH coming out of the barrel. 

Plan was to leave it in the barrel 4-6 weeks.


----------



## jgmann67

Four weeks in the barrel for the Malbec. The sour is pretty much gone. The taste is pleasant, markedly better. Definitely going another couple weeks (at least, maybe another 4 weeks since I have two gallons of unoaked Malbec to blend) in the barrel. 

Initially, I was considering putting the 2019 cab-syrah through it after I got done with the super tuscan blend. But, I haven't tasted it since filtering it a couple weeks ago. If I can't save it, I'm just going to roll from the 2020 wines into the 2021s.


----------



## CDrew

jgmann67 said:


> Four weeks in the barrel for the Malbec. The sour is pretty much gone. The taste is pleasant, markedly better. Definitely going another couple weeks (at least, maybe another 4 weeks since I have two gallons of unoaked Malbec to blend) in the barrel.
> 
> Initially, I was considering putting the 2019 cab-syrah through it after I got done with the super tuscan blend. But, I haven't tasted it since filtering it a couple weeks ago. If I can't save it, I'm just going to roll from the 2020 wines into the 2021s.



So was the sour taste just dissolved CO2? I have heard that the barrel makes the CO2 dissipate really fast. No first hand experience though.


----------



## jgmann67

CDrew said:


> So was the sour taste just dissolved CO2? I have heard that the barrel makes the CO2 dissipate really fast. No first hand experience though.



Most, if not all, of the co2 was gone by this racking. So I don’t know if I can answer whether the barrel makes co2 dissipate. But, that makes sense with everything I’m told about micro oxidation in barrels.

I’m still planning to test the ph when the Malbec comes out of the barrel. Hopefully it will give me some insight into the sour taste (and whether the barreling is only masking it).


----------



## jgmann67

Additional question: regarding the wine I set aside to top up the barrel. I took the Malbec scrapes and poured them into a 1.5L bottle, corked it and put it in the fridge. After using up about 600ml to top the barrel, i poured it into a 750ml bottle (poured the rest in a glass for the winemaker to taste), corked it and put it back in the fridge. Am I doing it right? I figure the cold will keep it from oxidizing.


----------



## winemaker81

jgmann67 said:


> Am I doing it right? I figure the cold will keep it from oxidizing.


There's no need to keep it in the fridge if the bottle is full to normal levels. I refrigerate for a week to help precipitate solids, then screwcap or airlock the bottle and put it with the other wines.

I have a *thread *where I've displayed my results in saving wine.


----------



## jgmann67

winemaker81 said:


> There's no need to keep it in the fridge if the bottle is full to normal levels. I refrigerate for a week to help precipitate solids, then screwcap or airlock the bottle and put it with the other wines.
> 
> I have a *thread *where I've displayed my results in saving wine.



That’s the thing... revisiting the barrel and topping up each week leaves a good bit of headspace in the bottle. Especially when I’m only pouring 75-100ml at a time. So, I figured it was best to refrigerate. Added bonus that particulate will drop to the bottom of of the bottle.


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## winemaker81

jgmann67 said:


> That’s the thing... revisiting the barrel and topping up each week leaves a good bit of headspace in the bottle.


Get smaller bottles. I have a bunch of 375 ml screwcap bottles + 200 ml screwcap bottles. A while back I purchased a handful of "sample" size bottles in the grocery store. The wine was marked down a lot to sell, and the wine was utter garbage. I poured the wine out and kept the bottles.

Regarding screwcaps, they can be reused a limited number of times before the seal fails. I screw the cap on tight, turn it upside down and look for leaks. If it leaks, move the wine to a new bottle and recycle the leaky one.

You're topping weekly? AFAIK, most folks top monthly. If your bung is tight, you'll get a vacuum due to evaporation, so your wine in the barrel is fine and you'll use more topup at once. Keeping topup in 375 ml bottles will work better.

All that said, refrigeration helps, although if you have a lot of head space, the wine will oxidize eventually.


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## jgmann67

winemaker81 said:


> Get smaller bottles. I have a bunch of 375 ml screwcap bottles + 200 ml screwcap bottles. A while back I purchased a handful of "sample" size bottles in the grocery store. The wine was marked down a lot to sell, and the wine was utter garbage. I poured the wine out and kept the bottles.
> 
> Regarding screwcaps, they can be reused a limited number of times before the seal fails. I screw the cap on tight, turn it upside down and look for leaks. If it leaks, move the wine to a new bottle and recycle the leaky one.
> 
> You're topping weekly? AFAIK, most folks top monthly. If your bung is tight, you'll get a vacuum due to evaporation, so your wine in the barrel is fine and you'll use more topup at once. Keeping topup in 375 ml bottles will work better.
> 
> All that said, refrigeration helps, although if you have a lot of head space, the wine will oxidize eventually.



new barrel. So, I’m checking weekly for the first month. Then monthly thereafter. I have 375’s and can probably find smaller bottles if necessary.


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## sour_grapes

jgmann67 said:


> Additional question: regarding the wine I set aside to top up the barrel. I took the Malbec scrapes and poured them into a 1.5L bottle, corked it and put it in the fridge. After using up about 600ml to top the barrel, i poured it into a 750ml bottle (poured the rest in a glass for the winemaker to taste), corked it and put it back in the fridge. Am I doing it right? I figure the cold will keep it from oxidizing.



I think the refrigeration will help. How about a Vacuvin in addition?


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## Boatboy24

I like the vacuvin idea and have read that refrigeration significantly slows the rate of oxidation.


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## jgmann67

Oh yeah. I have a vacuvin somewhere. Got lost in the move.


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## stickman

I agree, use the vacuvin or use smaller bottles. Refrigeration does slow down the oxidation, but because of that the wine ends up saturated with oxygen, and the wine can dissolve even higher levels of oxygen due to the cold temperature. The oxygen becomes reactive once the wine warms up. It's probably not that big of a deal in a young red wine, but maybe more of an issue in white or more delicate wines.


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## jgmann67

It's been six weeks in the new barrel. The oak is very present. We'll leave it another couple weeks. Then dose with Kmeta, return it to the carboys and blend it in with the 2 gallons of unoaked left overs. Alternatively, I bought some medium plus toast French Oak spirals that I would consider dropping in to the left overs for a couple weeks just to oak it up a bit (probably should have thought about that last month).


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## winemaker81

jgmann67 said:


> I bought some medium plus toast French Oak spirals that I would consider dropping in to the left overs for a couple weeks just to oak it up a bit


Instead of using the spirals, you could leave the wine in the barrel a couple of more weeks beyond what you're planning. When blended you'll get (more or less) the same result and you'll still have the spirals for another use.


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## jgmann67

winemaker81 said:


> Instead of using the spirals, you could leave the wine in the barrel a couple of more weeks beyond what you're planning. When blended you'll get (more or less) the same result and you'll still have the spirals for another use.



that was my plan originally. Happy to hold the spirals for a different effort.


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## jgmann67

With added time on my hands, I shuffled the Malbec out of the barrel and put the first 8 gal of ST blend into the barrel. The wine isn’t sour at all. Tastes pretty damned good. So, maybe it was just me. Still I’ll probably test the ph this weekend just to be sure.


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## jgmann67

Three months later and the first 8 gallons of Super Tuscan is racked out of the barrel, and the next 8 gallons is in. This time, we'll oak for 4 months. 

The Malbec is tasting just fine and I'm contemplating bottling in August.


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