# plum wine problem



## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

hi everyone my name is eric. i am in the process of making my first batch of plum wine. i am following stu's formula for prize winning plum wine. it is a 20 gallon batch. i started with 1.11 which i see as maybe too high for plum wine. once the hydrometer read 1.01 i filtered into 5 gallon carboys where it has been for a littlle over a week now. i am in denver and the air is cold and the carboys are in the garage. the fermenting seems to have been stalled and it is now starting to discolor and clear out from the top gradually to the bottom. i had a little left over from the filtering proces, about 1/3 gallon. so i put it in a gallon jug and put it in the fridge. after several days it cleared and the sediment was at the bottom. i sampled it and it was still sweet and fruity but obviously a little drier. all in all good. i decided to take a sample of each one of the carboys and it tastes mainly like alcohol. it seems to have lost all fruit flavor. i am hoping that this can be corrected but i fear for the worst. i understand that i can sweeten if needed but i am hoping that the fruit flavor will come back. can anyone give me some advice as to what is going on or what i can do?


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## St Allie (Oct 11, 2009)

hello eric and welcome to the forum,

You have gone a wee bit high on the alcohol there for a fruit wine.. normally we suggest between 1.080 and 1.095.What that does though, is it masks the flavour and then all you can taste is the alcohol. 

after stabilising ( sorbate and sulphite additions)

To get the flavour back you will need to sweeten it a little again, you can make an fpac .. which would be reduced plums, water and sugar ( if you have saved any plums in the freezer?).. or you can make a simple syrup which is 2 parts sugar to one part water. This will help dilute the alcohol down to a better level and replace some of the fruit flavour, sweeten to just under what your tastebuds prefer .. as it will sweeten slightly more with cellaring.

Allie


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

You have a VERY high alcohol wine. Fruit wines should be in the 1.085 starting gravity range.
How many pounds of fruit you use?
keeping it in a cold garage will slow the fermentation. You say you "racked" it @ 1.010 was that just before you put it in a cold garage?
Give us the recipe! and step by step what you did


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## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

i started with 85lbs ripe plums. fermented in 30 gallon bucket until it read 1.01 and then i filtered it into carboys where ithas been for little over week. everything has been done in garage where it has been quite cool. the little bit leftover that i put in the fridge tasted nice and sweet so i am just confused as to why it would taste different from what i sampled from the carboys. it still needs to clear more. probably 1/4 of the way cleared. if i am to sweeten more would i be safe to use sweet n low? i am worried to create more fermentation with regular grain sugar. also will the plum flavor be salvaged or is that lost?


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## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

is there a chance that what i am sampling will regain some of the fruit flavor and sweeten more in the next couple months? i am thinking that it may also just be concentrated at the top of the carboys and has not yet mixed all the way.


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## Wade E (Oct 11, 2009)

Okay. By putting the small amount in the fridge you took the temp down below where the yeast can ferment leaving that wine with residual sugar and it didnt ferment the rest of the way down like the rest did and thats why you have more alc in the rest hiding all the good fruit flavor. What you need to do is add 1/4 tsp of sulfite per every 5 -6 gallons and you also need to add potassium sorbate which will stabilize your wine and not let it ferment anymore even if you add more sugar. After adding both of those you can then sweeten your wine without it fermenting again. Sweetening it will bring out the fruit some but it will need more time for the fruit to really come forward and the abv to mellow into the wine, probably 6-8 months.


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## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

thanks for the tip. what kind of sulfite should i use? also, how much potassium sorbate per 5gallon carboy? should i do this soon? i was also told that i should filter off the lees so that any additional flavor changes would stop. is this correct?


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## Wade E (Oct 11, 2009)

You dont have to filter a wine. Proper rackings will do this itself. I rack when it gets about 3/4" deep. Potassium Metabisulfite (K-meta) which is also campden tablets is the sulfite I use but Sodium Metabisulfite (Na-meta) can also be be campden tablets. For Potassium Sorbate just follow the directions from the manufacturer but it is usually 1/2 tsp per gallon. You should also add more sulfite after every 3 months of being in the vessel without fermentation. I would add both sulfite and sorbate after fermentation is done and dont add sorbate without the sulfite. Sorbate is only added once!


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

ALSO;
Sweetening wine .. DO NOT use sweet n low.
You need to make simple syrup which is 2 parts sugar to 1 part water. Boil water and add sugar heat till clear using a whisk. .
for 20 gallons I would use 8 quarts of sugar to 4 quarts of water. If you have it in 4 carboys add 1 quart of simple syrup to each 5-6 gallons. OR to YOUR taste.


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## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

so to follow your advice i should stabilize with sulfite and sorbate.. can i do this asap? also, how long do i wait until i can sweeten once i stabilize?


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

If your wine is DRY (= .990) then you can stabilize. That is adding K-meta AND sorbate. Once added at proper amounts you can sweeten after you know the fining's are well dispersed / dissolved. you can also add clearing agents to clear faster. Then start aging..... Rack as needed.
Don't forget to DEGAS!


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## St Allie (Oct 11, 2009)

If your wine is already dropping out sediment and clearing.. the fermentation sounds done., check your SG doesn't change over a 3 day period..( less than 1.000) you can rack it off the sediment that has dropped out already if you want or just Hit it with sulfite and sorbate, stir it up well to help degas it.. 

you can sweeten it straight away after sorbate and sulfite additions.. or do it in the morning. You're basically good to go onto clearing the wine, then bulk storing if you wish to.. or bottle when really bright and clear.

Allie.


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## Wade E (Oct 11, 2009)

I always stabilize once fermentation has stopped and I check that by taking a gravity reading 3 days in a row to make sure it is not still dropping. You can sweeten right after stabilizing the wine but then you should wait at least a week afterwards to make sure it doesnt start to ferment cause it can happen on very rare occurances. Dehassing a wine by stirring crap out of it is also recommended to get rid of C02 trapped in the wine from fermentation and by doing this it will help the wine to clear much faster.


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## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

also, can i just dump the sulfite and sorbate on the surface or does it need to be stirred down? i was going to rack in a couple weeks. is it ok for me to pour the correct amount of simple syrup in the bottom of the carboys and siphon on top of it so that it mixes without stirring too much?


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

also, can i just dump the sulfite and sorbate on the surface or does it need to be stirred down? 
*NO it should be dissolved in either wine or water then added and stirred*.i was going to rack in a couple weeks. is it ok for me to pour the correct amount of simple syrup in the bottom of the carboys and siphon on top of it so that it mixes without stirring too much? *YES no problem
Rack now on top ot the k-meta and sulfite mix well, then add the simple syrup
Make sure it's degassed!*


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## eric (Oct 11, 2009)

what is the proper process of degassing?


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## St Allie (Oct 11, 2009)

Degassing is when you give the wine a really good stir.

Do it when you add the sorbate and sulphite. 5 to 10 minutes. watch for foaming.

Sterilise a long handled spoon and stir in one direction and then the other to help the C02 escape from the wine.. some wines need longer stirring than others, then put it back under airlock.

If you are planning to bulk age your wine under airlock for a couple of months, any lingering gases should dissipate. 

Allie


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## eric (Oct 12, 2009)

so... i degassed the wine and stabilized it. i will probably add the simple syrup soon when i rack. the cold weather has probably been an ally the last couple days by stopping the fermenting. i've documented everything since the start for these types of issues so that i dont make this mistake again with plum wine. i just really really hope that the simple syrup will help the fruit flavor make a comeback. i plan on having the wine in the carboys for at least 3 more months and probably rack twice more.


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## Luc (Oct 12, 2009)

I hate to spoil the fun guys, but...........

You are using 85 pounds for 20 gallon and in my book
that is way to low for making a fruity plum wine.

I make plum wine every year, and this year again 120 liter (about 35 gallon).
For this amount I used 200 kilo plums (being about 440 pounds).

I just watered it down a bit with simple syrup (1 kilo sugar on 1 liter water) to bring down acidity a bit and sugar up. I did not add more as 10% water this way. My plum wine has a very strong flavor and even takes oak well.

So I truly believe you used a far to high fruit/water ratio to get a fruity wine.

And now something really becomes clear to me.
This is of course why everyone is so determined to make f-packs. You are using a way to low amount of fruit for making a decent wine.

Luc


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## Midwest Vintner (Oct 12, 2009)

Tom said:


> If you have it in 4 carboys add 1 quart of simple syrup to each 5-6 gallons. OR to YOUR taste.



tom> we use much less sugar than this for most of our wines. 1 quart = 940 ml and we typically use about 500 ml of the syrup. but the "to your taste" is always a good idea. everyone will make wines different. *that is a good thing!* many fruit wines can be good both semi-dry>sweet, but takes more time and experience to get a good semi-dry than the sweet. real hard to make a dry fruit wine.



Luc said:


> I hate to spoil the fun guys, but...........
> 
> You are using 85 pounds for 20 gallon and in my book
> that is way to low for making a fruity plum wine.
> ...



agreed luc. it's not abnormal for us to use 5+ lbs/gal of fruit in our wines. the only wines we don't use more lbs/gal are the berry and pecan.


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## eric (Oct 12, 2009)

my recipe was as follows:
11 gallons hot water
7 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient
7 1/2 tsp peptic enzyme powder 15 crushed camden tablets 
6 tbs + 4 1/2 tsp. acid blend
3 packets cote de blanc yeast
30-45 lbs suger
75 pounds ripe plums (i used 85)

this was supposed to be a 15 gallon recipe and it came out to fill 4 carboys at 5 gallons a carboy. i thought it was a good thing to have so much as it was actually extra fruit. does this sound too low in fruit?


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## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

Thing is Luc..

He's already made this batch with the recipe he found. It can't really be changed at this stage, we can only encourage him into trying one of the heavier fruit based recipes in our files next time. At least that way he will be able to compare the difference for himself.

Allie


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## Tom (Oct 12, 2009)

eric said:


> my recipe was as follows:
> 11 gallons hot water
> 7 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient
> 7 1/2 tsp peptic enzyme powder 15 crushed camden tablets
> ...


F Y I 
75# of fruit is what I would use for 12 gallons. I would also think around 16-18#'s of sugar would work. You must use your hydrometer so the gravity is 1.085


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## eric (Oct 12, 2009)

i will remember this for the future. i just hope that i will be able to salvage what i currently have. have any of you made this mistake before with plum wine and been able to correct it so that it came out enjoyable?


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## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

Eric,

You had already tried your wine when it was slightly sweeter and hadn't fermented down so dry.. and you liked what you had made.

Sweetening what you have made, after it's all sorbated etc.. will bring it back to that taste level again for you.

We all make our wines individually to taste. What you like in a wine, isn't necessarily what I like, or Tom likes, or Luc likes. As long as you like what you make, that's all that matters.

Allie


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## Wade E (Oct 12, 2009)

I concur ith Allie. I personally would use more fruit and less sugar but whats done is done and I dont believe this wine is lost at all. It will take some tinkering and age to get it into shape so done even think of giving up on it. Pull a specified amount out and play with sweetening and take notes to how much you add of anything and when you find what you like mutiply that by what you have left in the bigger vessel and fix the rest. Dont try to do this to the whole batch cause 1 slip an you may screw up everything. I always extarct the small amount and work with that so that I dont over sweeten the whole batch.


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## Tom (Oct 12, 2009)

Yep I agree what Allie said. Many times you will hear ME say "To Your Taste". As long as you like it go for it. We are here to help you refine your wine making.
As you make more wine your "Taste" buds will refine. This is when you will understand and know what a particular wine should "taste".


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## eric (Oct 12, 2009)

thank you all for your help and time. i will most definitely keep everyone posted real time. i'm sure i will have more ?'s


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## eric (Oct 12, 2009)

i actually had some car troble today or else i would have racked with the simple syrup. should i experiment with a gallon or so?


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## Wade E (Oct 12, 2009)

Definetly would!


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## eric (Oct 12, 2009)

will it be ok to rack this weekend with the sweetening solution or do i need to do it sooner since i stabilized yesterday?


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## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

it'll be fine til the weekend.

Allie


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

i noticed that the wine possibly started to ferment again after i stabilized. there was approx 1/4 inch of small white bubbles on the surface of each carboy. is there something else i should do to make sure it is stabilized or is this typical? i understand that it is important to make sure that wine will not ferment anymore when i add the simple syrup. any advice?


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## Tom (Oct 13, 2009)

Did you degas?
If not do it now


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

i degassed. maybe not enough?


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

should i give them another good stir?


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## Wade E (Oct 13, 2009)

What temp are you degassing at as anything much lower then 74* will not let it degas very well.


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

its probably closer to the 60's range since the it is in the garage. chilly here in denver. no other place to put the carboys tho. should i stir it up more? also, how will i know its safe to rack and sweeten?


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

it definitely appears to be fermenting again. all of the carboys are slowly bubbling and the airtrap bubbles every 30 seconds or so. i imagine that more of the sorbate is what it needs? also, i think it may be in the upper 50's range for temp.


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## Wade E (Oct 13, 2009)

If you put the recommended amount f sorbate in there then dont add any more. It most likely was not done fermenting and trying to stop a fermentation in progress is near impossible without sulfiting it to the point you would not want to drink it. Check your sg now and again in a few days to see if it is dropping. You are not going to be able to get gas out of your wine at those temps. You must consider getting a brew belt or building a fermentation box or you will have problems making some wines at those temps.


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

will do. i assume this means that more alcohol is being produced...


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

when the sg does not change for at least 3 days it is done fermenting right?


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## Wade E (Oct 13, 2009)

Correct, a few days in arow with no change in sg means stable.


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

at that time.. ok to rack and sweeten?


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## eric (Oct 13, 2009)

sg currently 1.00 on all 4 carboys.


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## eric (Oct 14, 2009)

i was wondering if one of you have a 5 gallon recipe for plum wine that i might be able to follow. its possible that i can get a small batch of the plums that a previously picked for my current batch. the plums dont have much longer until they are no good anymore. they are falling off the trees and squishy, but very ripe and sweet. i just hate to see them go to waste so i would love to take another shot at it this year before its too late. my goal with the first batch was a wine that was fruity but a little stronger. and obviously i used too much sugar that time. i would still like to make a plum wine that is somewhere around 13-13.5% i'm not sure how many #s i can get but id say somewhere around 30# will that be enough for a 5gallon recipe that anyone has perfected? if so, may i use it?


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## St Allie (Oct 14, 2009)

Pick the plums first, weigh them and let us know how much you have.

you might like to do a heavier percentage of fruit this time in a smaller batch to compare.

Allie


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## Wade E (Oct 14, 2009)

If you look under recipes i have a 6 gallon recipe that will just need to be reduced to a 5 gallon recipe. Change everything but the yeast packet. Make sure the plums are very ripe!


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## eric (Oct 14, 2009)

i think rather than change the recipe i will just shoot for the 6 gallon batch. i hav powder enzyme. is it ok to use 1/4 tsp of that or does it have to be liquid. i am only missing couple ingredients to the recipe but will collect them soon. the plums are in yard of neighbor to relative. i dont want to be greedy by asking for more (since ive already picked 85#) but they are going to waste. its a shame really. in the case that i can get more, would it be better for my current batch to come up with some sweetening solution using extra plums or is simple syrup ok?


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## Wade E (Oct 14, 2009)

(For the wine you have now) If you are happy with the flavor then simple syrup will work fine and it will also bring forward some fruit flavor also. 
As far as pectic enzyme goes use whatever you have and go by the manufactureres instructions on how much to use and done be afraid to use a little extra of thisw stuff as it does not hurt and some fruits really require more.


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## eric (Oct 14, 2009)

its a littler hard to tell the flavor i have now due to the high alcohol content. its really masked. should i go by what had sampled from the batch that was in my fridge as described in earlier posts? also, it does not specify in your recipe when to apply the acid blend. common sense tells me its in the beginning of process. i want to play it on the safe side tho and b sure.?


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## Wade E (Oct 14, 2009)

You should always adjust acid up front as this will help fermentation if everything is balanced correctly. Sometimes this has to be readjusted again after fermentation as citric acid can get consumed during a fermentation. If the flavor is that masked then it probably need some flavor added back along with lots of ageing.


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## eric (Oct 16, 2009)

i went to a local homebrewing companyhere in denver by the name of stomp then grapes. they were very informative. i took a sample of my batch to them and had it checked for contaminates. all clear!! and with the advice of an employee there i will be sweetening with california honey, and adding natural plum flavor. i was able to modify a bit of the sample that i took in there and it seems as if it will come out quite good. obviously the alcohol level will still be high but the finished product after some aging should come out quite enjoyable.


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## eric (Oct 16, 2009)

i am not going to be able to get more of the plums from the neighbor. does anyone have any ideas of where i can order some?


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## St Allie (Oct 16, 2009)

Why don't you have a look around and see what other fruit is ripe and really cheap due to being seasonal?.. Are apples cheap at the momen? Apple cider and apple wine are both well worth making if you can get the fruit cheap.

What about 'pick your own fruit' type places?.. They are often worth filling your car to the brim for.

Allie


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## mmadmikes1 (Oct 16, 2009)

I climbed a plum tree today and got about 15 lbs, but the real hit was the black walnut tree next to it


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## eric (Oct 16, 2009)

is it ok to use grocry store produce?


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## St Allie (Oct 17, 2009)

You can use grocery store produce, however be aware that most produce is picked slightly underripe and often coolstored for long periods.. this can affect the flavour and amount of juice you will get from the fruit.

If using shopbought products.. I'd suggest you choose pre packaged juices for ferment.. It can often work out cheaper and you cut out a lot of work for yourself. If using juices.. read the back of the packaging carefully.. you want 100% juice ( not 'fruit drink') and 'no preservatives added'. Some preservatives.. such as potassium sorbate.. will make your fermentation difficult, if not impossible, to get started.

Allie


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## Wade E (Oct 17, 2009)

I agree, most grocery stores get their products from places that ship them pretty far and these places pick them early resulting in lower sugars and higher acids and not as much flavor. There are some goo finds in the produce area but some of them can be very bland and not worth it. Frozen fruit is another story though and you can get some good fruit that way as its picked ripe and then flash frozen and freezing fruit is a good thing for wine makers as it beaks down the cellular walls which in turn gives us better color and flavor extraction in our wines.


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## Tom (Oct 17, 2009)

AS one who makes alot of frresh fruit wines I agree with the above posts. I would find a farmer or a U-PICK place.
Plan on making fruit wines when that fruit is in season.


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## eric (Oct 20, 2009)

sorry for the absence for so long. all is going well with the current batch. it seems to be re-gaining much of the plum flavor on ts own. i did rack it on sunday and used a clearing agent yesterday. it is a 2 part clearing agent (super clear) and it seemed to have much effect in just half a day. i noticed that the wine at the top of the carboy was almost transparent and in good plum wine color. now it seems to have gotten a little cloudier. any advice?


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## St Allie (Oct 21, 2009)

be patient.. the quick clearing finings still take a few weeks to drop the solids out.

I know they say sooner on the packaging, however there will be a lot of fine particles with the plum wine.. so wait it out.

Allie


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## mmadmikes1 (Oct 21, 2009)

Last wine I had clear than cloud back up had restarted fermentation. Happened because I was rushing the wine


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