# Vanilla beans, oak and other additions



## wineforfun (Apr 1, 2013)

Trying to get a handle on exactly what these things do and when to use them. 

Vanilla beans - what do they do flavor wise? can/should they be used with only certain types of wines? when do you add them, primary or secondary?

Oak - what does this do flavor wise, is it what gives that bitter or smokey flavor I taste in some merlots and cabs? should you only use them on certain wines or flavors?

Been making numerous variations of dragon blood, Welch's grape concentrates, sweet cherry juice and cranberry/raspberry juice wines. Wanting to know what the additions of any of the above would do for these wines or if I should even use them on these.

Thanks and if this has been answered or "sticky note", just let me know.


----------



## Noontime (Apr 3, 2013)

Only you can answer what you should put in your wine depending on your own personal taste, but I suppose there are tradtional uses for oak and vanilla.

I'd say vanilla is usually used in meads and desert wines...obviously anything you would want to taste like vanilla. Orange creamsicle wine, chocolate port, vanilla mead (honey wine). I'm sure it would add an unwanted flavor to some wines, like a big red like Cab.

Same thing goes for oak. Yes, it's the oak that gives the smokey flavor in some wines (heavily toasted oak), but it can also smotth out a wine, add vanilla or buttery notes, etc. You could oak fruit and concentrate wines, but I'd try just a little bit at first to see if that's what you want.

For me, good wine is integrated well and has harmony in the flavor, so adding flavor adjuncts should be appropriate to the base wine; I love coffee but I wouldn't add coffee beens to a pinot grigio, although I'm sure it would be quite good in a mead or dark beer.


----------



## djrockinsteve (Apr 3, 2013)

I use American medium toast oak chips for my reds and a few whites. It's all in what flavor you want. We like our Merlot well oaked 8-10 ounces by weight for 5 gallons) others 4-6 ounces. 

I allow them to age with the wine 10 months. 

If you are unsure take a small bottle and add some wine. Add 1-2 oak chips for a few days. Sample. Taste the difference. 

You will have to experiment to find your exact taste. There are several kinds of oak and toasting. Tell us what wines and your preferences and we can give a few recommendations.


----------



## JohnT (Apr 3, 2013)

When oak is (IMHO) correctly toasted, a layer of caralemized wood forms just below the "char". This layer contains varried amounts of a compound called Vanillan. This compound is (almost) identical to that in the vanilla bean. 

Adding vanilla to your wine is a way of cheating. A way to add the same flavor profiles as if you used properly prepared oak. The issue here is that the compounds are not the same and will react differently over time. 

My advise is to not cheat. Use high quality oak with at least a medium toast and allow for a nice lond exposure to your wine. When it comes to vanillan, the bigger pieces of oak you use the better!


----------



## wineforfun (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks, that clears up some of what I was looking for. I have tried a couple of store bought wines that had a smoky flavor too them and that is what I wanted to know, if it was the oak.
As far as the vanilla goes, just wondering when to use it, ie: primary, secondary, etc. 

I understand about finding what I like but before I worry about that, I wanted to know when/where you would typically use these things and what the result would be.


----------



## Turock (Apr 4, 2013)

We recently made a vanilla concord. It turned out great! We've never used vanilla bean in the secondary but I've read about people doing it that way. We had the experience of using cinnamon sticks in the secondary and the flavor was good in the bottle right afterward, but dissipated down to almost nothing after a couple months. So we were dubious about the results of vanilla bean in the secondary ater that experience.

So what we did was start researching about making our own extracts. The science behind this is that it takes a higher alcohol content to extract the oils and flavors than you find in a wine. For the vanilla, we used 8 vanilla beans in a bottle of vodka. Shake it once in a while and in a month or so you'll have an extract to work with. 1/2 ounce per gallon of wine works out great. For the cinnamom, we used 10 sticks in a bottle of vodka and used the same 1/2 ounce per gallon. We added it to some apple and pear wine and it holds up very well in the bottle. 

As for oak, you should try experimenting. This is half the fun of making your own wines. When you do it, use moderate amounts of oak. If the flavor isn't enough, you can always add some more. But there's nothing worse than too much oak--it tastes like you're chewing on a board. Toasted french oak can lend vanilla notes--Hungarian oak lends carmel notes. A good moderate amount of oak is about 1/2 cup per 5 gallons---taste the wine after a few months and add a little more if you wish. Red wines, and fruit wines like blackberry and especially elderberry are mighty fine drinks with some oak on them.


----------



## JohnT (Apr 4, 2013)

Just to add on what turock said, I would encourage everybody to experiment with oak. IMHO, it is the best way to kick your wine up to the next level. 

A while back, I wrote an article on oak (at least my take on it). Here is the link.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/entries/take-on-oak.html


----------



## Noontime (Apr 4, 2013)

When to use oak definitely makes a difference as well. When added during fermentation it creates softer more integrated tannins compared to ageing it in oak (or with oak cubes, staves, etc). It's very common for the smaller oak chips to be added during fermentation, and then larger oak cubes or staves added for bulk ageing.


----------



## suecasa (Apr 5, 2013)

If I'm following re; oak. Shreds or fine oak should only be used in primary? If they can be used later will they just settle out? If you use cubes or spirals can they be reused (in similar wines)?


----------



## Turock (Apr 6, 2013)

In primary fermentation, chips or powder are typically used. They give up their flavor pretty quick--in a week or so. 

You can still use chips in secondary ferment but many people like spirals or cubes which can take a couple months to release all the flavor. Once you use the oak, you don't want to reuse it because the flavors are gone.


----------



## Noontime (Apr 6, 2013)

There was a really interesting article in Wines & Vines about traditional oak and additives, and it basically came down to time and surface area. Chips and powder have a huge amount of surface area so they give up their flavor (and other stuff) really quickly. This can have a dramitic effect on flavor at first, but over time as everything integrates, flavors tend to smooth out. Cubes and spirals have less surface area but are still designed to give up their flavor in a relatively short amount of time (compared to barrel aging), providing smoother and fuller flavors short term but also improving with age. Staves have a small surface area and release their goodies slowly like a barrel does, so the wine is aging as the oak releases it's flavors and integrates into the wine.

They did a much better job of explaining it than I did I'm sure. As Turock said, you can use any of the oak at any time, but chips and powder are used by many in the primary so it can interact with whatever magic the yeast do during fermentation, creating compounds and smoothing tannins in a way that's not possible any other way.


----------



## Turock (Apr 6, 2013)

Another way to approach oaking is to make extracts. You could have some french medium toast extract,hungarian oak extract, American oak extract,etc. then play with them--maybe even add a little of 2 different ones. The nice thing about extract is that you can immediately oak a wine and the flavor is there right now. 

To make extract, add chips to a bottle of vodka. In a short time, you'd have all the oak you need for quite some time.


----------



## Noontime (Apr 6, 2013)

Turock makes a great point about blending. That's one of the benefits of the cubes I find...you can create blends and even buy premade blends of different types and toasts of oak. Oh the fun.


----------



## Elmer (Apr 7, 2013)

All the Mosti Mondale kits I have bought come with a bag of oak chips. The direction has allways called for adding the oaks during the secondary fermentation. 

I have altered the directions and followed a few courses of action:

Put all the oak in during secondary fermentation
Put all the oak in during bulk aging
put 1/2 oak in secondary and 1/2 in the bulk age.

According to MM directions-oak in the secondary is the best way to allow the oak to settle into the flavor.
However I dont always trust the directions, because secondary is 2 weeks and bulk aging is months to years.

Of course would it be over oaking to add all the oak in secondary and then a spiral for aging?
Can you over oak? what if you add oak after every racking?
I currently have chianti (aging) and Cabernet Franc (just begun).
I am going to take the 1/2 & 1/2 approach with both!


----------



## phat (Apr 7, 2013)

Elmer said:


> Of course would it be over oaking to add all the oak in secondary and then a spiral for aging?
> Can you over oak? what if you add oak after every racking?
> I currently have chianti (aging) and Cabernet Franc (just begun).
> I am going to take the 1/2 & 1/2 approach with both!



Yes, it's possible to over oak, but it depends on your taste. Some people like a lot, and some like a little - since it's harder to take it out than put it in, most of us 
start with a bit and move up the scale. 

I normally add the small oak to my kits in the primary (the "dust" or small chips) - however if the kit comes with cubes I do those during bulk age. I also have a nice big back of large chunks of french oak, and most of my bigger reds, I add more oak (that I toast up to medium in my oven) during bulk age. - often use the kit chunks (if any) then taste, and decide if I'm adding more on a racking.


----------



## winointraining (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm new to winemaking , but i smoke a lot of meat and use oak chips from jack daniels barrels. they are white oak , can you use those chips for flavor ?


gary


----------



## phat (Apr 7, 2013)

Elmer said:


> I currently have chianti (aging) and Cabernet Franc (just begun).
> I am going to take the 1/2 & 1/2 approach with both!



Oh, in case you care - chianti is normally "lightly" oaked - Italian DOC chianti is aged
in enormous oak barrels that are normally reused for decades and decades and only scraped out every few years. the result is that the wine doesn't get a lot of oak flavor to it - unlike traditional (small) french barells - that are often started new and toasted and only used once. 

but of course, do what tastes good to you


----------



## Noontime (Apr 9, 2013)

winointraining said:


> I'm new to winemaking , but i smoke a lot of meat and use oak chips from jack daniels barrels. they are white oak , can you use those chips for flavor ?
> 
> 
> gary


There are a couple of things to consider Gary. 1) The wood was used for aging whiskey and may/will impart that flavor into your wine. 2) The oak has already given all of it's flavor to the whiskey, that's why Jack Daniels doesn't want it anymore. 3)


----------

