# Wyoming Vineyard



## CowboyRam (Oct 13, 2013)

I am planning a small vineyard here in Riverton, Wyoming. I am thinking of planting the Petite Pearl, and maybe a few table grapes (for the wife; she likes to can). Not sure of the variety yet. I plan to put the rows 8' apart, but not sure on how far apart for each vine. I have been thinking of 5' between vines. Is this too close? Also from my research I have not seen anyone use railroad ties for end post; is there a reason for this?


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## GreginND (Oct 13, 2013)

Petite pearl is a good choice but it seems to be a slow grower. That being said, I just pulled the grow tubes off 100 first year petite pearl and found several perfect clusters hidden within. I have mine planted 8 feet apart but I have super fertile soil. The creator of PP, Tom Plocher, suggests 6 feet between vines around here.

I think folks shy away from rail road ties because they are preserved with creosote. It can be toxic and not the best for agricultural use.


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## CowboyRam (Oct 15, 2013)

What trellis system works best for the petite pearl? I have read that it has open trailing growth habit that is suitable for high wire training; does that mean that I can get away with single wire trellis?


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## GreginND (Oct 15, 2013)

I've heard that high wire is the way to go and it's what I'm going to use you should be good with one wire.


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## grapeman (Oct 15, 2013)

It may be easier to get the vine trained with an additional wire or two. You can use bamboo or some other material for a pole to train the vine up. You can tie that to the additional wire/s. I use two wires for the High Wire or Top Wire Cordon system.


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## CowboyRam (Oct 15, 2013)

How high should the top wire be? Is five feet good?


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## GreginND (Oct 15, 2013)

If you can get it closer to 6 feet, all the better. You want the fruiting canes that hang down to have enough length to have at least 15 or so leaves. 5 feet may be a little short.


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## CowboyRam (Oct 15, 2013)

Thanks; I have not set my post yet so I will get it as close to 6' as I can. I will also plan to do two wires; would it be best to put the lower wire 15" below the top wire?


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## CowboyRam (Oct 17, 2013)

Got my end post in today. Looking forward to spring so I can get the vines planted, and finish up my trellis.


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## grapeman (Oct 17, 2013)

CowboyRam said:


> Thanks; I have not set my post yet so I will get it as close to 6' as I can. I will also plan to do two wires; would it be best to put the lower wire 15" below the top wire?


 
I go 3 feet and 6 feet for the wires. You can tie the trunk of the vine loosely to the 3 foot wire and it helps keep it a bit straighter.


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## CowboyRam (Oct 22, 2013)

I have also been looking at the Frontenac also. I know that there are several vineyards in Wyoming that are growing the Frontenac; so I know that they will grow here. I am still leaning towards the Petite Pearl though. Comparing the two; about what time of year do they ripen? Also about what time of year is the bud break?


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## OilnH2O (Oct 25, 2013)

I don't recall if you're east of the divide? I think so - and about 5000' elevation. That might make a big difference. I know for here in Missoula, we're just under 3000 msl and west of the divide, so get milder winters. 

I've found my last frost is right around first of May, and first right around mid-September, with a hard frost around the first week in October. That seems to define what we can grow here. You might check with your county agent, or even the local weather - the airport maybe? - for past data on freezes. That's always helpful information. One of the things I've found in my Missoula vineyard is that those dates make a difference in my brix readings. For two and three years ago, my Foch and Leon Millot were 21-23* brix - where this fall the average was 18.5. 

So, I guess I'm saying your question will be best answered most likely by your own experience! 

Good luck!


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## CowboyRam (Nov 6, 2013)

I think I need to rethink the variety of grapes I am going to grow. It looks like the Petite Pearl ripens late season; I think this is going to be to late for my climate. I am thinking that I need a grape that ripens early; It can also get fairly cold Here in Riverton, Wyoming. Any suggestions on a good grape? .


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## grapeman (Nov 7, 2013)

Have you considered growing Marquette? The biggest problem I see with it is the risk of a freeze in the late spring. It breaks bud early and begins to grow. If it freezes real late, it can nip the early growth and it has to grow agin making the grapes a bit late, otherwise it ripens fairly early. It is hardy to about -30F.


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## CowboyRam (Nov 10, 2013)

I am thinking of going with the St. Croix, or Sabrevois. What grape make a better wine? Now I prefer a sweet wine. Any pros and cons for each vine?


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## GreginND (Nov 10, 2013)

Personally not a fan of sabervois. If these are your options, I'd go with st croix. You could consider Frontenac or Frontenac Gris. The former is a red grape the does well on the sweeter side. The Gris is a grey grape that can make a nice sweeter white or more rose style.


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## CowboyRam (Nov 10, 2013)

I have looked into the Frontenac but was concerned with them having enough time to ripen. They ripen sometime towards the end of September right? Here in Riverton we usually get our first frost sometime around the middle of September. Now there is a vineyard near Torrington Wyoming that does grow the Frontenac, but their first frost come a little later that Riverton's.


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## grapeman (Nov 10, 2013)

Personally I don't care for the taste of Frontenac- it is too strong of flavor and aromas and the acid levels will scream where you are.
St Croix will make a better sweet wine than Sabrevois. Have you checked out the Marquette? It makes a real nice Pinot Noir style wine and is pretty cold hardy and bears well along with maturing in time for you.


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## CowboyRam (Nov 10, 2013)

Ervin cellars here in Riverton grows the St. Croix so it may be a good choice; The Marquette might work as well. It ripens about mid September. Table Mountain Vineyard near Torrington also grows the Marquette; I should maybe take a trip down there and talk with Patrick. 

What do you think of the Geneva Red? The only thing is could it survive when the mercury drops below -30. When I first decided to grow grapes I would never of thought it would be this difficult to pick a variety to grow.


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## grapeman (Nov 11, 2013)

GR-7 or Geneva Red is too tender for you there. It will do alright to about -15F and below that will freeze to the ground. I ripped mine out here last year after having it freeze 3 years in a row. I replaced it with St Croix. St Croix is a very juicy tender variety so you need to pick it ASAP when it is ready- the next day may be too late and they split or at least mash upon picking.


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## CowboyRam (Nov 11, 2013)

grapeman said:


> GR-7 or Geneva Red is too tender for you there. It will do alright to about -15F and below that will freeze to the ground. I ripped mine out here last year after having it freeze 3 years in a row. I replaced it with St Croix. St Croix is a very juicy tender variety so you need to pick it ASAP when it is ready- the next day may be too late and they split or at least mash upon picking.



I was thinking that the GR-7 was not hardy enough, but I thought I see what others had experienced. 

I am more and more leaning towards the St. Croix.

Thanks, Grapeman


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## CowboyRam (Nov 13, 2013)

I have made my decision on the grapes that I am going to grow. St. Croix, Valiant, and the Somerset ( to make the wife happy). According to Double A Vineyards recommended spacing between vines is 8' for the St. Croix and Valiant, and 6' for the Somerset; I am guessing that is the spacing that I should use. 

I was also talking with the owner of Irvin Cellars and she recommended that I plant the vines at a 45deg angle to the ground; So they could be laid down and covered for the winter. It that something that I really need to do?


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## grapeman (Nov 13, 2013)

Since you are growing cold hardy vines there is no need to lay them down in the winter so no need to plant on an angle. If you do you will get very crooked vines that can be more susceptible to crown gall. I'm surprised a vineyard recommended this to you. Burying was usually reserved for trying to keep vinifera vines alive in cold areas.


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## CowboyRam (Nov 13, 2013)

Ok, thanks.

That is how she had all of her vine planted. I was not wanting to do it that way. We get a lot of mice in our haystack during the winter, and I know if I covered the vine with straw I would have them in my in my vines.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 4, 2013)

Does it make much difference if I buy #1,or #2 bare root vines from Northeaster Vine Supply, or 1yr extra, or 1yr #1 form Double A Vineyards.


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## grapeman (Dec 4, 2013)

All the vines from both of them will grow well. Even the #2 vines have a good root system.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 5, 2013)

I am thinking that I would not see much difference in growth, or am I all wrong?


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## grapeman (Dec 6, 2013)

The number 1 will grow a bit more, but essentially they are cut back at planting so you end up close to the same.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 11, 2013)

I ordered my grape vines today; I decided to go with the St. Croix, Petite Pearl, and Somerset.


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## cygnus (Jan 25, 2014)

Hi Cowboy
We live at Lovell and have about 400 vines 16 rows with 25 per row. They are 275 of Frontinac and 125 of LaCresent( I think) my wife is the expert and I am just the farmer. our vines were 4 years old this last summer and we got 90 gallons of red juice and 6 gallon of white. 5 of the rows were ony 2-3 years old and didn't produce. 
We have made about every mistake we could because we learned at a vineyard in Yakama WA where they had heritage(European) vines and we put in hybrids. 
The first year we put on grow tubes and left them on during the winter -35 deg and we lost about half the white and 35 percent of the red . We should have taken the tubes off and they would have hardened better,We had 100 of each that year. 
The next summer we replanted and added 25 white and 75 red. The next year we added 100 red. 
We put the cordon on the second wire and tried to make them grow up to the 3rd and 4th wire for 3 years and then went to a Univ of Wy seminar and found that with hybrids we should put the cordon on the top wire and let them grow down so this past summer we started retraining and they grew much better.
We put the rows 9 ft apart and planted a vine every 4 ft. should have planted them 6 ft apart. The soil is very fertile and the vines very hardy. We used steel post every 20 ft which worked well except I used steel post on the ends and the wire tension and vine load bent the end post so I have to replace them with wooden this spring.

We bottled 32 bottles of white today and have about 90 bottles of red We still have 45 gallons in the fermenter---anyone want some

Larry & Nancey
Lovell WY


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## CowboyRam (May 19, 2014)

In the last two days I have got my St. Croix and Somerset vines planted. I did get a little bit of a surprise; I ordered 33 Somersets and got one extra. That makes 59 holes dug in the last two days, and 33 more to go tomorrow.


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## byathread (May 20, 2014)

I'm guessing that vineyard operator suggested planting at an angle because even the hardy hybrids can suffer some years there. My favorite website for historical climate data is below. Looks like Riverton (downtown) has hit -46F and has a mean annual extreme minimum of around -30F. I think even the hardiest of hybrids would be damaged at 40 below. Might be worth considering, though it may only dip below -40 once every 15 years or more (and likely less often going forward).

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/Climsum.html


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## CowboyRam (May 24, 2014)

92 hole later: Left side 25 St. Croix, Middle 34 Somerset, Right side 33 Petite Pearl.


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## grapeman (May 24, 2014)

That is looking great. Nice job.


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## GreginND (May 24, 2014)

Very impressive. Great job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## CowboyRam (May 24, 2014)

Thanks. 92 holes dug and no buried treasure. I enlisted my son to help plant; he thought it was an awful lot to work. If and when I expand, I am going to rent an auger next time.


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## mgmarty (May 25, 2014)

Really looks nice!


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## CowboyRam (May 27, 2014)

One week after planting. May 27 2014




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## CowboyRam (May 31, 2014)

Today I noticed that a few vines are developing what looks like grape clusters; should try and reach in the grow tube and clip off these clusters? Here several days ago I was thinking that out of the 92 vines planted that I was going to have 2 or 3 not survive, but it looks like every one is budding out. This is getting exciting watching these vines grow.


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## grapeman (May 31, 2014)

Don't worry too much about the clusters. They generally wither up and fall off for one reason or another. Later in the year when you remove the tubes to allow the vines to harden off, clip the remaining clusters off.


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## CowboyRam (May 31, 2014)

Ok, Thanks


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## CowboyRam (Jun 2, 2014)

Another photo I took today. St. Croix in grow tube with grape cluster.




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## berrycrush (Jun 3, 2014)

Do you plan to remove the cluster in the tube? I guess you have to remove the tube to get the clusters?


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## CowboyRam (Jun 3, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> Do you plan to remove the cluster in the tube? I guess you have to remove the tube to get the clusters?



No, I am going to do like Grapeman recommends and wait until I remove the grow tubes in the fall and clip off the clusters.


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## grapeman (Jun 3, 2014)

Be sure to remove the growtube bout mid August to give enough time for the vines to harden and to get the remaining clusters off before they start to ripen.


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## blumentopferde (Jun 4, 2014)

grapeman said:


> Be sure to remove the growtube bout mid August to give enough time for the vines to harden and to get the remaining clusters off before they start to ripen.



Interesting! I've never removed the grow tubes from the vines until they were large enough to fill the trellis. I'd always leave them on to protect the stems from rodents and from glyphosate which I use once in a while.

Maybe I should remove them earlier this time!


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## grapeman (Jun 4, 2014)

Here we have extreme cold in a lot of areas of the country. They do not harden off well until the tubes are removed. It takes several weeks to harden off enough to ensure they survive the winter well. Warmer areas need not remove them or at least not as soon.


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## blumentopferde (Jun 4, 2014)

grapeman said:


> Here we have extreme cold in a lot of areas of the country. They do not harden off well until the tubes are removed. It takes several weeks to harden off enough to ensure they survive the winter well. Warmer areas need not remove them or at least not as soon.



Thanks for the explanation!


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## cygnus (Jun 8, 2014)

We left the grow tubes on the first winter and had about 40 percent winter kill on the whites and 10 percent on the reds. when we planted new vines after that we always hardened them by removing the tubes Aug 1. and didn't loose as many during the winter. We also mound the dirt up about 6 in on the new vines the first winter.

We live in Lovell which has about the same weather as Riverton.

Larry


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## CowboyRam (Aug 17, 2014)

Just removed the grow tubes off of the vines. The ST. Croix and Somerset did fairly well, several made the top wire, some are close to making it, and there are a few that did not. The Petite Pearl got set back from some weed spray. I had several vines send up more that one shoot. Should I trim back to only one now, or should I wait until next spring? Also the ones that made it above the top wire should I trim them just above the wire now or wait? There were several vines that have grapes, should remove them now that I can get to them?


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## rawatts (Aug 17, 2014)

do the antelope eat your vines? I am from Twin falls, Idaho. Sorta miss the west


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## CowboyRam (Aug 19, 2014)

Have not seen any antelope around where we are, but I did have some problems with some deer. They pruned back some vines before I put an electric fence around the vines. I had a few vines might have made the top wire if it had not been for the deer.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 19, 2014)

We have had fog all week. Somebody send use some sun. Here is a photo of the frost on the vines.


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## BobR (Dec 19, 2014)

Had some snow yesterday in the Riverton, IL area, but the sun came out in the afternoon and it's now all gone. Been having some serious deer issues this year. First year in 4 that the deer are going through my trellis wires. So far, this is the 4th time that they have damaged the wires
.


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## RedSun (Dec 19, 2014)

I think deer likes to eat leaves off grape vines.... Put on deer fence....


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## CowboyRam (Dec 19, 2014)

I put an electric fence around my vines.


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## RedSun (Dec 20, 2014)

So the deer still squeezed in?

My local vineyard all fenced in with metal mess wires....

Also, what are you going to do with 34 Somerset vines? I do not think you can eat all the grapes from the vines. Plan to blend with the other grapes in making wines?


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## CowboyRam (Dec 20, 2014)

The plan was to sell some at the farmers market.


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## byathread (Dec 20, 2014)

BobR said:


> Been having some serious deer issues this year. First year in 4 that the deer are going through my trellis wires. So far, this is the 4th time that they have damaged the wired.



Venison goes really well with a nice red wine!


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## byathread (Dec 20, 2014)

BobR said:


> Been having some serious deer issues this year. First year in 4 that the deer are going through my trellis wires. So far, this is the 4th time that they have damaged the wired.



Venison goes really well with a nice red wine!


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## CowboyRam (Apr 1, 2015)

About two weeks ago I trimmed my vines down to three buds. Should I put the grow tubes back on?


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## mgmarty (Apr 1, 2015)

Only if you think you need to protect them from varmints or wind. I never used them.


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## grapeman (Apr 1, 2015)

It might be a good idea if you have rabbits or deer. You are limited to those buds and if something eats them off, it will set the vines back.


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## RedSun (Apr 1, 2015)

The entire vineyard should be fenced to fend off the deer and rabbits. I believe deer loves grape leaves. Birds are another story down the road.

I do not use tubes. fence coming up in a month....


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## OilnH2O (Apr 2, 2015)

I used the blue tubes only the first year, until they grew out of the top of the tubes. I don't think they will do much unless, as above, the problem is rodents from the ground.


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## CowboyRam (Aug 20, 2016)

Update on my Wyoming Vineyard. As of today some of my vines have the cordon arms grown out, some just barely made the top wire, and a few that maybe next year will make the top wire. I had a few get stunted by some weed spray, but over the last three growing season I have not lost one vine as of yet. I thought I had lost one early in the summer, but it finally started having some growth. 
I did let a vine or two produce to grapes this year, but not many. One thing that surprises me is that my Petite Pearl is way ahead of my St. Croix, and Somerset. I was expecting the St. Croix and somerset to ripen ahead of the Petite Pearl. 







Taken August 8th





Taken August 15th





Taken August 20th


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## mgmarty (Aug 21, 2016)

Looks great! Watch them birds! Your going to be real busy next year.


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