# Joes ancient orange mead



## Arne

Made a batch of JOAM early last fall. Was simple to make, but after it finished fermenting, had to taste it. Was not my favorite, but others said it was really good. Tasted it last nite and it is coming around. Think a lot of the taste was the pith on the orange rind, but it is blending in or leaving. Anyway, it has fallen clear and think it will soon go into bottles to sit for a year or two. Bet it will turn really good before it is done. Google Joes ancient orange mead for the recipe. I followed it using the whole orange slices and bread yeast like it said. It's gonna be some pretty good wine. Arne.


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## desertwind56

I made some last August, but I used wine yeast (forgot to write down what kind). Just bottled it a couple of weeks ago. It tastes good except for the bitter aftertaste from the pith. We broke down and opened a bottle last night, and I think this may taste pretty good over time.

I'm currently fermenting a batch of mead with just orange juice and leaving out the whole orange. Going to add orange zest and the spices when done fermenting. I'm hoping for something that tastes like JAO without the pith taste.


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## fatbloke

desertwind56 said:


> I made some last August, but I used wine yeast (forgot to write down what kind). Just bottled it a couple of weeks ago. It tastes good except for the bitter aftertaste from the pith. We broke down and opened a bottle last night, and I think this may taste pretty good over time.
> 
> I'm currently fermenting a batch of mead with just orange juice and leaving out the whole orange. Going to add orange zest and the spices when done fermenting. I'm hoping for something that tastes like JAO without the pith taste.


Sorry, tried a number of variations and they just don't come out "good" (which is relative).

Dry, it's just not nice and can take a long time to come good as the lack of sweetness tends to highlight any pithy taste.

Besides, it just takes a bit of thought and analysis. Yes, he uses bread yeast. Fine. Yes, he also uses the whole orange, fine. Yes that is quite a lot of honey for what would have been written as a 1 US gallon recipe (I make mine as 1 imp gallon and it still comes out good).

So, the nutrient seems to come from the raisins.

Because of the honey in the recipe, and the fact that bread yeast won't ferment it dry, it needs something to help reduce the potentially cloying sweetness, the orange helps and the pith gives a little bitterness, so I'm presuming that when the recipe was developed, it was intended to have a hint of orange marmalade, as there's no tannin in the recipe other than what might come from raisins.

Not forgetting that it's a recipe designed specifically with the new mead maker in mind so they can get a batch on the go, pretty much from what's in the kitchen stock cupboards etc........


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## Arne

Fatbloke, I think maybe it is the sweetness I didn't really care for,but as time is passing it is really getting better. Havn't decided whether to make any more or not tho. Gave my wife a taste and she said it was really good so will probably have to make another batch. Arne.


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## fatbloke

Arne said:


> Fatbloke, I think maybe it is the sweetness I didn't really care for,but as time is passing it is really getting better. Havn't decided whether to make any more or not tho. Gave my wife a taste and she said it was really good so will probably have to make another batch. Arne.


Ah, well if its the sweetness that's too much then don't bother trying any commercial means that're described as "dessert" means then as you'll probably hate them........vvv sweet!

I like mine at about 1.010, maybe up to 1.015 so I usually ferment dry and then backsweeten to that level....


regards

fatbloke


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## xanxer82

Meade is unique. I have a btach and it's a bit hazy.. not in bottles yet... thinking about sticking it outside for a couple of hours to get cold and letting it warm up.. maybe that will help.


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## fatbloke

xanxer82 said:


> Meade is unique. I have a btach and it's a bit hazy.. not in bottles yet... thinking about sticking it outside for a couple of hours to get cold and letting it warm up.. maybe that will help.


Well, it depends on a few things, like what the haze is i.e. yeast and brewing sediment or if you back sweetened with honey, a protein haze.......

If you have got the lees racked out, then time is usually best, but if you can't wait, then cold crashing often helps, as does bentonite, then maybe sparkoloid, then chemical fining.

Filtering is worthy of consideration but can be costly on filter pads/elements...
and should really only be used to give a final polish.

Either way, if you have and can spare the container, I'd say its best to bulk age the mead as its less likely to vary from temperature difference issues while ageing...

regards

fatbloke


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## mmadmikes1

Most of the meads I have made are being dranks in 4 mouths by the crazies around here. They keep asking me to make more and have taken to bringing me honey. I dont backsweetin.


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## fatbloke

mmadmikes1 said:


> Most of the meads I have made are being drunk in 4 mouths by the crazies around here. They keep asking me to make more and have taken to bringing me honey. I don't back sweeten.


Well, as ever that's your choice as you're the maker.......

I've yet to find a dry mead that I've enjoyed, but also, I don't like the cloyingly sweet dessert meads - so I try and back sweeten with honey of the same type as originally used in the must to retain the flavouring character.....

Plus, I try to consistent in my process methods so the only variables are the honey and alcohol level

regards

fatbloke


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## xanxer82

It's been racked off the gross and fine less since christmas. used ec 1118 on it instead of bread yeast. Didn't need any back sweetening. The Starting SG was suffiecint to burn out the yeast and leave a nice amount of residual sugars. Taste is pretty good. Just that haze. I don't think I'm going to bother running it through my filter. Enough time will take care of that. I do think the cold stabilization may help though. Since it's just a one gallon US batch, it's not worth the chemistry.. perhaps a little bentonite if anything at all.
Thanks for the input bloke.  The next batch will probably be 3 or 5 gallons.


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## mmadmikes1

fatbloke said:


> Well, as ever that's your choice as you're the maker.......
> 
> I've yet to find a dry mead that I've enjoyed, but also, I don't like the cloyingly sweet dessert meads - so I try and back sweeten with honey of the same type as originally used in the must to retain the flavouring character.....
> 
> Plus, I try to consistent in my process methods so the only variables are the honey and alcohol level
> 
> regards
> 
> fatbloke


It never get past about 1.01 and in my opinion that's about right. I don't use bread yeast because most time I use a slurry to start and the original yeast was Premier Cuvee


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## fatbloke

xanxer82 said:


> It's been racked off the gross and fine less since christmas. used ec 1118 on it instead of bread yeast. Didn't need any back sweetening. The Starting SG was suffiecint to burn out the yeast and leave a nice amount of residual sugars. Taste is pretty good. Just that haze. I don't think I'm going to bother running it through my filter. Enough time will take care of that. I do think the cold stabilization may help though. Since it's just a one gallon US batch, it's not worth the chemistry.. perhaps a little bentonite if anything at all.
> Thanks for the input bloke.  The next batch will probably be 3 or 5 gallons.


Erm, no I suspect that it just ran out of nutrient. EC-1118 is good for 18% and while the amount of honey/sugar in the recipe for a JAO is enough to poop out bread yeast, I'd bet that properly managed, EC-1118 would take it dry. 

Besides, if you used wine yeast then it's not JAO is it. Similar maybe, but Joes recipe is worked out like that for a reason. Mainly so that new mead makers take ingredients from their kitchen cupboards and bingo, they've got a batch of mead on the go. It's basic, because it's meant to be.

I've made about 8 or 9 slight variations on the JAO recipe and it just doesn't come out nice. Nothing compares to the original.

Either way, it's your brewing so you decide what's in it......

well done if you're happy with what you've made though. 

regards

fatbloke


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## xanxer82

I think you're correct about the nutrient. Perhaps I will make an experiment a la Luc and do two one gallon batches one using bread yeast and another using wine yeast....


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## Love_in_Texas

I have some lovin on itself in my closet. I did deviate, using anise instead of clove. He's about a month old and cleared up about 75%. Im excited! I dont care what kinda yeast it uses if its yummy!!!


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## fatbloke

Love_in_Texas said:


> I have some lovin on itself in my closet. I did deviate, using anise instead of clove. He's about a month old and cleared up about 75%. Im excited! I dont care what kinda yeast it uses if its yummy!!!


No, that's fair enough, but with a lot of wine yeasts, it ferments dry and it doesn't make for a good dry recipe.

It's meant to be sweet (and easy to make/get the ingredients etc). Of course, the anise will make it taste a bit different due to the differences in flavour. I don't know how powerful the anise is, but cloves are definitely "less is more" because it's the alcohol that extracts the flavour from them......

so if the rest of you batch was made as per the recipe/suggestions by Joe, then I don't see why it shouldn't come out good.

don't forget, normally it's not bad at all, when first racked, but if you can age it some it should improve quite a lot....

regards

fatbloke


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## 2PUPs

*Jaom first batch*

Ancient Orange Mead (by Joe Mattioli)
1 gallon batch 

3 1/2 lbs Clover or your choice honey or blend (will finish sweet) 
1 Large orange (later cut in eights or smaller rind and all) 
1 small handful of raisins (25 if you count but more or less ok) 
1 stick of cinnamon 
1 whole clove ( or 2 if you like - these are potent critters) 
optional (a pinch of nutmeg and allspice )( very small ) 
1 teaspoon of Fleishmann’s bread yeast ( now don't get holy on me--- after all this is an ancient mead and that's all we had back then) 
Balance water to one gallon 

This will be my first try at making mead . Well off to the kitchen I go. Will keep posted on the process .


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## DaveM

I was all pumped to bottle this bad boy today (it was clear)...but all of the oranges and raisins were still sitting at the top of the carboy. I stuck the racking cane in it, and that disturbed all kinds of sediment. So I just racked it, cleaned the carboy, then racked it again and am waiting for it to clear again. How long can I expect that to take? If I'm impatient, should I just add some sparkolloid?


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## Julie

DaveM said:


> I was all pumped to bottle this bad boy today (it was clear)...but all of the oranges and raisins were still sitting at the top of the carboy. I stuck the racking cane in it, and that disturbed all kinds of sediment. So I just racked it, cleaned the carboy, then racked it again and am waiting for it to clear again. How long can I expect that to take? If I'm impatient, should I just add some sparkolloid?



LOL, don't be impatient, when I made this I racked and it cleared by the following weekend. Also, I noticed that it really wasn't good until it was 6 months old.


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## fatbloke

DaveM said:


> I was all pumped to bottle this bad boy today (it was clear)...but all of the oranges and raisins were still sitting at the top of the carboy. I stuck the racking cane in it, and that disturbed all kinds of sediment. So I just racked it, cleaned the carboy, then racked it again and am waiting for it to clear again. How long can I expect that to take? If I'm impatient, should I just add some sparkolloid?


Patience young Jedi !

It's very easy to "jump the gun" with JAO. Just because its clear, it doesn't mean its ready. The whole point seems to be, that when the fruit has dropped, there's nothing to hold a little of the yeast. So you have something to rack, that's not cloudy. Bread yeast doesn't flocculate well, and comes back into suspension very easily and with the fruit still in there, it should be topped up and safe from possible spoilage organisms.

So, yes, if you've taken it off the fruit, I would suggest that you fine it, to remove the sediment sooner rather than later. Rack off as far down as you can, carefully, into the clear area, then the last bit of liquid can be racked into a separate bottle which is put into the fridge for a day or so, until its clear, and you can then remove the last of the clear liquid.

It might be ready to drink, but probably not, so age it for 6 months.

regards

fatbloke


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## Ken914

FB, how long does it normally take for the fruit to drop... or is that a random thing?


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## Julie

Ken914 said:


> FB, how long does it normally take for the fruit to drop... or is that a random thing?



about 2 months but could be longer.


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## Ken914

Thanks, Julie!

I remember that Debbie posted that her fruit never dropped. I was wondering when I should just say "long enough" if that happens to my 3g batch.


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## Julie

Ken914 said:


> Thanks, Julie!
> 
> I remember that Debbie posted that her fruit never dropped. I was wondering when I should just say "long enough" if that happens to my 3g batch.



Take a reading, if it is below 1.00, rack it into another carboy.


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## fatbloke

If you deviate from the recipe, then you "void the warranty". Most people who make JAO have brewed other stuff and because when they made X to produce Y they get a little concerned.

So they can't seem to get their head round this rather unusual concept of "mix it together and leave it alone". They're so used to having to complete other small steps or tweeks to whats going on.

I seem to recall my first JAO taking 3 to 3 and a half months for the fruit to drop. They just need to have a little faith, because if there was anything amiss with the recipe, I'm pretty sure it would have showed itself by now, discrediting this simple yet excellent recipe.....


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## Arne

The JOAM is stuck on the back of the workbench. Kinda forgot about it. Will have to give it a try shortly and let you know how it is. Probably should bottle it sometime, but it isn't hurting anything where it is. Trying to get all last years wines finished up and bottled so I can have the carboys back. The fruit trees have all flowered and looks like a bumper crop. Arne.


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## Ken914

Roger that, Sir. Thank you.

Mine has been going just over a month... I'm good with leaving it alone, but it's nice to know approximately what to expect.


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## Trog

Just noticed that the JAOM that I started in June is only in a 1/2 gallon bottle not a 1 gallon. Should I add a 1/2 gallon water and let it sit or just let it go?


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## Ken914

Ken914 said:


> Mine has been going just over a month... I'm good with leaving it alone, but it's nice to know approximately what to expect.



I'm at 4 months... a few pieces of fruit have fallen. Most still at the top.


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## DConnolly

*Bottling question....*

I started my first batch of JAOM on July 4th and it's perfectly clear and a few of the raisins are starting to drop. Took a little sample this weekend and it tastes awesome. I used local honey that was very sweet and was probably mostly wildflower honey if I had to guess. I'm planning to bottle it sometime in the next week or two and am wondering if I should get it off the lees and fruit first into another jug first. Or just send it straight into the bottles and hope I don't get some sediment. Thoughts?


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## bricklayer67

fatbloke said:


> Well, as ever that's your choice as you're the maker.......
> 
> I've yet to find a dry mead that I've enjoyed, but also, I don't like the cloyingly sweet dessert meads - so I try and back sweeten with honey of the same type as originally used in the must to retain the flavouring character.....
> 
> Plus, I try to consistent in my process methods so the only variables are the honey and alcohol level
> 
> regards
> 
> fatbloke



When you back sweeten with raw honey, I assume you boil it to kill any organisms, but how do you get it clear? I don't usually back sweeten anything until just before bottling, so I don't want to introduce any haze, cloud, or bacteria into otherwise clear and sterile wine. Any suggestions?


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## fatbloke

bricklayer67 said:


> When you back sweeten with raw honey, I assume you boil it to kill any organisms, but how do you get it clear? I don't usually back sweeten anything until just before bottling, so I don't want to introduce any haze, cloud, or bacteria into otherwise clear and sterile wine. Any suggestions?


No, absolutely not.

I don't boil or otherwise use heat on any honey, excepting when it's crystalised in the jars, then I just put the jars into hand hot water to gently bring it back to liquid (just replacing the water with more hand hot water, when it's gone cold - yes it does take 2 or 3 hours, but I prefer that, too ruining a good honey).

It's why I try quite hard to locate either raw honey, or honey that I know hasn't been over processed (like the cheapo supermarket type honey). Heating it seems to destroy too much of the more subtle flavours and aromatics.

In any case, honey is pretty much, the most naturally anti-septic substance nature has to offer. Hell you can even spread it on open wounds and all it does is to help the healing process.

Of course, if it's not been mega processed, there's more of a chance that it will cause a protein haze. But that's why I like to back sweeten to about the level I enjoy my meads at i.e. about the 1.010 mark (a.k.a. medium). That's done once it's been racked off the gross lees, and invariably the other sediment take any protein haze with it as it settles out. 

If you clear a mead, then age it, before back sweetening, any haze either has to drop out again naturally, or you have to hit it with finings.

Yes, you'd normally make the back sweetening process just before bottling, but by doing it after the first racking, it just saves the effort and hassle of clearing it twice.

dunno if any of that helps or not......

regards

fatbloke


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## bricklayer67

I never boil or heat my honey in any way before starting a batch, because it I know it will alter the flavor somewhat. I also use Lalvin KV-1116 yeast, which tends to dominate any fermentation it is involved in, plus a dose of campden tablets at the first racking, so I don't worry about any natural yeasts in the raw honey. Also, I don't usually have to backsweeten my meads because I use cold stabilization to stop fermentation at a predetermined point - I like 1.008 or 1.010 also. But I would love to use honey as a sweetener for strawberry and blackberry wines, so I'm starting to think I should A) make a super sweet mead and use it strictly for blending into these wines, or B) do the sweetening at first racking and add sulfites. Thank you for the suggestions and information!


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## Arne

The JOAM will be a year old on the 14th. Tried a little last night. It is very clear and very sweet. It has a taste that I do not think I really care for. I think it might be the orange pith, but it might be a combination between the pith and cloves. Anyway, it does not taste bad, but it is not going to be one of my favorites. Think I will pack it away in a couple of bottles and see what happens with it. It has not dropped any sediment in months. Will it probably start fermenting again or will I probably be ok bottling it without sorbating it? Arne.


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## docanddeb

That bitter taste fades after 2 yrs. Mine is now 2 yrs 9 mos old... 1 bottle left from the gallon I made. I got me started making melomels, which I looovvveee!

Debbie


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## fatbloke

Arne said:


> The JOAM will be a year old on the 14th. Tried a little last night. It is very clear and very sweet. It has a taste that I do not think I really care for. I think it might be the orange pith, but it might be a combination between the pith and cloves. Anyway, it does not taste bad, but it is not going to be one of my favorites. Think I will pack it away in a couple of bottles and see what happens with it. It has not dropped any sediment in months. Will it probably start fermenting again or will I probably be ok bottling it without sorbating it? Arne.


If you stuck to the recipe, then the yeast should have "pooped out" (reached it's tolerance).

People always seem to complain about "pith bitterness", but I'd suggest that it's there to try and balance some of the high levels of residual sweetness, giving almost an "English Marmalade" type hint until it mellows out.

So you should be fine with bottling it.

Of course, if you're really worried about it, you can always find a type of orange that has only got a thin layer of pith below the skin.....


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## docanddeb

If I did it again... I would zest the peel, then peel the pith off the orange segments.

Debbie


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## Arne

Yep, this was one of those experments. I suppose if I bottle it and stick it back i will not be happy with myself when it turns out great and I have to wait for a couple of years to get some more that is good. Kinda wonder what the abv is, but never used the hydrometer on this one, just followed the recipe like they said to do. Think that bread yeast made the abv a little higher than most of the wines I make. Least the burn test going down says so. lol. Anyway this has been fun and I still have enough honey to make another three gallons but think I'm gonna use it for something else. Havn't decided what yet, but will get it goin one of these days. Arne.


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## Ken914

Arne said:


> The JOAM will be a year old on the 14th. Tried a little last night. It is very clear and very sweet. It has a taste that I do not think I really care for. I think it might be the orange pith, but it might be a combination between the pith and cloves. Anyway, it does not taste bad, but it is not going to be one of my favorites. Think I will pack it away in a couple of bottles and see what happens with it. It has not dropped any sediment in months. Will it probably start fermenting again or will I probably be ok bottling it without sorbating it? Arne.



Do you feel the flavor has a hint of medicine? It's not hot like too much alcohol... more like what orange cough syrup might taste like.

That's how my 5 month old JOAM tasted. I'm hoping that it mellows.


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## Arne

Ken914 said:


> Do you feel the flavor has a hint of medicine? It's not hot like too much alcohol... more like what orange cough syrup might taste like.
> 
> That's how my 5 month old JOAM tasted. I'm hoping that it mellows.



Think you might have hit the nail on the head, Ken. Does kinda taste like medicine.But, I'm gonna bottle it and leave it alone for a while. We will see what happens with it. No matter what, will most likely drink it anyway. Arne.


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## docanddeb

You will be amazed at the changes over the next 6-10 months. I only made a gallon, so we opened 1 every 6 months or so... 1 bottle left.

Debbie


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## Arne

Finally bottled the stuff. It mellowed out some more. Kathy took a couple of small swallows and said it is getting better. Will try and remember to bring this up when I crack one of these bottles. It definately is drinkable. Time will tell. Arne.


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## fatbloke

Arne said:


> -----%<-----Think that bread yeast made the abv a little higher than most of the wines I make. Least the burn test going down says so
> -----%<-----


No, actually that's a false result. Bread yeasts are designed as CO2 producers to "prove" breads while making them, whereas wine yeasts are selected for there ability to produce alcohol.

The "alcohol hot" taste (I think of it as "medicinal", whereas Ken Schramm likens it, in his book, to Listerine) can show through on meads of any strength, but yes, it does age out/mellow. It's one of the reasons that a lot of commercial meaderies will make their offerings quite sweet, with a high finished gravity, because the sugars can mask that flavour so it's drinkable/saleable earlier.

It's been "guesstimated" that JAO will be in the region of 10 to 11 % ABV (YMMV of course). Because if you did measure it at the start, you'd find that you only get the reading from the honey in water, the sugars in the fruit won't have mixed in, whereas they will have done by the time it's finished.

Meads are strange beasts, not always seeming "good" or right when young, which is why they're often aged not just for months, but years.......

Either way, well done on getting it sorted out and I hope it turns out good (as I suspect it will).


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## Dvorak

Started my first 1 gallon batch of JAOM this afternoon.

I forgot to take an SG reading before I added the yeast 

I took one about 4-5 hours after I added the yeast (and it was already pretty active). The SG was 1.14 at that time.

Does that sound about right? Or is the active fermentation throwing things high (extra CO2 in suspension)?

Thanks!


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## Arne

That very well could be pretty close on your S.G. This mead finishes out sweet (the alcohol kills off the yeast before it finishes dry, so there is still sweetness left in the mead). They say the bread yeast does not make as high a alcohol as wine yeasts, so they poop out sooner. Arne.


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## fatbloke

Arne said:


> That very well could be pretty close on your S.G. This mead finishes out sweet (the alcohol kills off the yeast before it finishes dry, so there is still sweetness left in the mead). They say the bread yeast does not make as high a alcohol as wine yeasts, so they poop out sooner. Arne.


Well some seem to have managed to get it down to the 1.020 to 1.030 region. Irrespective though, I suspect that's why Joes original recipe used whole oranges, so a little pithy bitterness counteracts the residual sugars making it taste less sweet than it otherwise would.......

Personally I just mix the recipe "as is" and let it do it's thing until the fruit drops. Of course, it can be a bit of a pig to rack off the fruit debris/lees, as bread yeast doesn't flocculate very well and can be brought back into suspension just my moving the fermenter. I usually move mine to where it's got to sit the day before......


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## Ken914

Nothing really to add... mine has been sleeping in the carboy, nestled in the garden tub with all the other carboys. I'll probably bottle in the spring.


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## Arne

fatbloke said:


> Well some seem to have managed to get it down to the 1.020 to 1.030 region. Irrespective though, I suspect that's why Joes original recipe used whole oranges, so a little pithy bitterness counteracts the residual sugars making it taste less sweet than it otherwise would.......
> 
> Personally I just mix the recipe "as is" and let it do it's thing until the fruit drops. Of course, it can be a bit of a pig to rack off the fruit debris/lees, as bread yeast doesn't flocculate very well and can be brought back into suspension just my moving the fermenter. I usually move mine to where it's got to sit the day before......



I got mine to clear just by racking and letting it sit, then rack again. I followed the instructions on the recipe and never did take a s.g. reading. Taste buds say it has finished sweet and a little burn going down says there is alcohol in it. Life is good, Arne.


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## DaveM

I just finished the last bottle of the first batch of this that I ever made. *sigh* Too bad it was only a 1G batch. If I wanted to make a 3G batch, would I just triple every ingredient? Even the yeast? Any suggestions for making a 3G batch that would be different than making the 1G batch?

Thanks for your help everyone.


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## Arne

I believe you should be good to go by trippeling everything but the yeast. I know you would be with wine yeasts, but I mite put 2 packs of yeast in, just because they are a different yeast. It wouldn't hurt to have extra yeast, but wouldn't be good to not have enough. They should multiply and make enough either way, tho. Arne.


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## fatbloke

Arne said:


> I believe you should be good to go by trippeling everything but the yeast. I know you would be with wine yeasts, but I mite put 2 packs of yeast in, just because they are a different yeast. It wouldn't hurt to have extra yeast, but wouldn't be good to not have enough. They should multiply and make enough either way, tho. Arne.


Spot on there Arne, I'd only be thinking about modifying things if I was making 10's of gallons at a time, as fermentation is an exothermic reaction and normal sized batches i.e. 1 to 5, maybe up to 10 gallons in 1 hit shouldn't be a problem, but much over that and I'd be thinking of how to keep the ferment cooled as there'd be no point if the yeast got cooked from the heat generated in a "large" batch.....


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## DaveM

Another question about JAOM:

The last batch I made tasted great to me. I used some solid honey from a beekeeper around where I live. Would I see a great drop in quality if I used some liquid honey from a major manufacturer of honey? (Bee-Maid, etc) It was kind of a pain last time getting the solid honey into liquid honey.


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## mmadmikes1

A lot of honey being sold in stores is not pure honey. I mean A LOT. Yes quality can be hurt if you get a cheap honey that is not real or one that has been cooked and pasteurized to prevent crystallizing. Being said, a great price on a good quality honey is Costco. Usually less than the fake or diluted honeys at the stores. They will mix honey with corn syrup and call it honey. sometimes as much as 50/50. If it says product of China, don't buy it


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## fatbloke

mmadmikes1 said:


> A lot of honey being sold in stores is not pure honey. I mean A LOT. Yes quality can be hurt if you get a cheap honey that is not real or one that has been cooked and pasteurized to prevent crystallizing. Being said, a great price on a good quality honey is Costco. Usually less than the fake or diluted honeys at the stores. They will mix honey with corn syrup and call it honey. sometimes as much as 50/50. If it says product of China, don't buy it


Concur, but then again, it's less of a problem here. The EU is mega strict with imports from outside the EU states.

I often use cheaper/blended/store bought honey for JAO as the flavour of the honey isn't the main focus taste.

As for crystalised honey being a pain, well I just scoop it out the container by weight, then it goes into a food processor with some of the water that's gonna be used in the batch and I blitz the hell out of it. Honey is hygroscopic when it's crystalised and will mix back down relatively easily. If it's one of those plastic pouring cans that contains the honey, I either just cut the top off it and scoop out, or if you're worried about not using it all at once, then you can just sit the container in a pan/sink/bowl of warm water, just changing the water when it gets cold, and repeating this until the honey has reliquified. It's not the quickest way, but is less likely to have any damaging effect on the honey, reducing aroma and the more subtle flavouring of a varietal honey......


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## mmadmikes1

I microwave mine. It is liquid fast


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## fatbloke

mmadmikes1 said:


> I microwave mine. It is liquid fast


Ah, well yes, that is another way, but it will heat the honey, which is something I try to avoid at all costs......

But hell, you go with whichever method suits you best.

Notwithstanding, some of your methods are good ideas. I personally, aren't as anal as a lot are, when it comes to how I'm making my batches, so I'm thinking I'll do a step feeding batch to see how it comes out.....


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## mmadmikes1

It become liquid before the temp is very high, about 75 degrees. I have just started my second batch of mead(yesterday) that I didn't heat the honey. First one I put into bulk aging Friday and it seems to be doing GREAT. Glad I listened to you no heat guys. The flavor is real nice and the mead is only 3 months old. So we learn from each other. Step feeding makes strong mead. Gets the girls pie eyed evert time


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## fatbloke

Great to hear that the no heat ethos is spreading........

I make about 15 gallons per year, all 1 gallon batches. Which is sort of why I've picked up a few tricks, especially like JAO as per the recipe (ok, well that's going with equivalents as closely as possible) is good, but having tried the majority of experiments people seem to try, and learning that most of them don't work well. It doesn't make for a good dry recipe.....


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## Ken914

DaveM said:


> Another question about JAOM:
> 
> The last batch I made tasted great to me. I used some solid honey from a beekeeper around where I live. Would I see a great drop in quality if I used some liquid honey from a major manufacturer of honey? (Bee-Maid, etc) It was kind of a pain last time getting the solid honey into liquid honey.



1. Be sure you're getting real honey (see the post above about corn syrup blends).
2. With the cinnamon & clove flavor being so strong, I don't believe my palette isn't sophisticated enough to tell the difference.
3. Remember that buying honey locally is supports small business and keeps the money in your community. I get a better deal on my blueberries if I promise the guy a couple of bottles of wine. A beekeeper might make the same kind of deal.


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## Ken914

I bottled mine tonight after 10 months in the carboy. 

I got 12 bottles out of a 3g recipe. When I consider loss from the fruit displacement, yeast, and other lees.... I think I'm happy with that. Perhaps a better winemaker could have squeezed another bottle out.

It's certainly not an every day wine, but I enjoy it.


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## ohbeary

Paul, I have 4.5lb imp of honey, what do I need to do with it to make mead/melomel as I have 9 small oranges and lots of sugar?


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## Arne

ohbeary said:


> Paul, I have 4.5lb imp of honey, what do I need to do with it to make mead/melomel as I have 9 small oranges and lots of sugar?



Go to the recipe section and scroll down til you get to Joe Mattioli's Ancient Orange Mead. That will give you something to do with your honey. Arne.


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## wineforfun

Quick question for those of you that have made this mead. I see it calls for only 1 tsp of yeast, is that correct? I have seen a similar recipe to this that calls for the whole package. Just curious. 
Also, could I back off the honey to 3lb., instead of 3 1/2 so it isn't quite as sweet? 
Thanks for the help.


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## fatbloke

wineforfun said:


> Quick question for those of you that have made this mead. I see it calls for only 1 tsp of yeast, is that correct? I have seen a similar recipe to this that calls for the whole package. Just curious.
> Also, could I back off the honey to 3lb., instead of 3 1/2 so it isn't quite as sweet?
> Thanks for the help.


Don't see why not...... it wouldn't be much different from me using all the same weights and quantities, but making it up to 1 imp gallon a.k.a. 4.55 litres rather than 1 US gallon or 3.78 litres is it.


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## Arne

This post came back from the dead. The JAOM is still sitting on the shelf in bottles. Think I saw 3 there the other day. Some day before spring will open a bottle. Will let everybody know how it is then. Arne.


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## TasunkaWitko

I started a batch of this tonight; I have seen the same recipe on a couple of forums and finally decided that - given the time frame involving mead - I am not getting any younger. Everything went well, and I think it will turn out quite good. 

A couple of deviations, more from necessity than anything else:

The amount of honey I used was probably an ounce or three shy of 3.5 pounds, but I am sure it will be fine. The biggest share of it was raw, unfiltered Montana honey, while half a pound of it was a blend of Montana honey and Montana huckleberry, just because that is what I had on hand. 

I grated what looked like a pinch of nutmeg off of a whole...nugget? Nut? I am not sure what it is called. It might have been a bit more, but I am sure this will be fine, too. 

I wanted to zest and then juice the orange, but couldn't find one part of my juicer that was needed; so, I zested it, then peeled it (pulling off any substantial "strings" of pith), then cut the segments into chunks and tossed everything in. My logic was that this would be much easier to remove from the fermenter, and also would eliminate any potential bitterness from the pith. My son, who has made this before, said that he noticed no bitterness when he made his (pith and all), but by then I had already done it, so we will see how it goes. It will be fine, I am sure. 

Having no Fleischmann's yeast, I used a generous teaspoon of "Western Family" yeast, which is distributed by a regional grocery chain. As with everything else above, I am willing to bet that this will be fine.

Between the honey and about half a gallon of water (i used a local spring water that makes great beer), I had about 3/4 of the fermenter filled by the time I was finished. I will leave this alone for 3 days or so until the most active period of fermentation is complete, then will top up to a gallon. 

More as it happens, etc. &c...

Ron


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## meadmaker1

Sounds like you didnt read the recipie lol
Youll be fine. 
Juicing might have hurt you.


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## TasunkaWitko

Well, I didn't juice the orange - I intended to, but my kids lost a critical part to the juicer. I did remove the pith, though. I cut it out of the skin and peeled most of it off the meat of the orange. The segments I cut in chunks for easy removal. 

As for the yeast, I am going to gamble that the honey won't know the difference.  it started up quickly and is going great this morning.


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## scodoublet

Newbie to the site here!
Saw this thread and had to reply.

I have actually made this a bunch of years ago.
It tasted really good, but too sweet for me.

It also led me down a path of fermenting everything I could find to make different flavored meads.
Blueberries, strawberries, rhubarb, dandelions, maple sap, vanilla beans, watermelon....

Some came out good, or at least drinkable, but that watermelon batch still makes me shiver!


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## Arne

scodoublet said:


> Newbie to the site here!
> Saw this thread and had to reply.
> 
> I have actually made this a bunch of years ago.
> It tasted really good, but too sweet for me.
> 
> It also led me down a path of fermenting everything I could find to make different flavored meads.
> Blueberries, strawberries, rhubarb, dandelions, maple sap, vanilla beans, watermelon....
> 
> Some came out good, or at least drinkable, but that watermelon batch still makes me shiver!



If it came out too sweet, cut down on the honey you put in up front. You can ferment it dry and add honey back after ferment to sweeten it to your taste. Arne.


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## Jocelyn

Just started a batch of this on Sunday. Looks beautiful fermenting nicely. I followed the recipe to a T.

I made my first batch of mead a few months ago it's very bitter and very potent. Had a buddy crawling on the floor after a few glasses. Really hoping this one taste better can't be much worse LOL

I followed a super traditional recipe for the first one just honey water and yeast I think part of my issue is using a workhorse wine yeast. The other part is it's only a couple months old


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## Arne

Jocelyn said:


> Just started a batch of this on Sunday. Looks beautiful fermenting nicely. I followed the recipe to a T.
> 
> I made my first batch of mead a few months ago it's very bitter and very potent. Had a buddy crawling on the floor after a few glasses. Really hoping this one taste better can't be much worse LOL
> 
> I followed a super traditional recipe for the first one just honey water and yeast I think part of my issue is using a workhorse wine yeast. The other part is it's only a couple months old




Probably going to have to let it sit. It will probably get better after a year or two. Make sure if bulk aging you keep your sulfites up. Arne.


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## CrownedBee

I'm with Arne - letting it age will help. We have a JAOM that's nearing 2 years old, and it is so mellow. Lovely to sip, sweet and citrusy, with no bitterness. I did a grapefruit variant that is closer to 20 months old. Even though I removed a lot of the pith at fermentation, it was still too bitter last time I had a bottle. Admittedly, that was several months ago. Maybe I'll taste again at the 2 year mark and see where it's at!


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## Jocelyn

My mead is clearing pretty nicely crazy enough it still seems to be having some action in the airlock. Is it OK that some of the fruit appears to be exposed at the top? I have it filled pretty high but A couple of the raisins are sitting on top of the orange. Should I rack it off?


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## Donatelo

I put this recipe together last night and wish I had read this subject stream here before I got started. I would have peeled the orange and zested the peeling leaving behind the pith. I used a packet of Red Star Cote des Blanc yeast, which has an alcohol tolerance of around 12%.
I intend to leave it sitting until October 27, 2018.

Do you think the bitter taste from the pith will dissipate by then?


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## Burton Kent

Why hasn't anyone simply zested the orange then peeled it when making JAOM? Tossed the pith in the trash and avoid the bitterness? 

I've made limoncello, and the one thing you learn is to zest the lemons and have no pith at all. Pith introduces bitterness. The recipe I used is at https://limoncelloquest.com/, and currently on the first page he shows a lemon microplane zester. That thing works amazingly well, cuts into the zest without picking up pith unless you're pressing hard.

Some oranges have very thin skins with very small amounts of pith. Some oranges have really thick skins with lots of pith. Seems to me that the folks not liking the bitterness probably had thick peels?


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## meadmaker1

JOA is a love/hate wine.
Ive had people ask if they could buy some and had someone standing next to them looking for some place to spit it out.
If you would tend to leave orange zest out of a recipe it probably wont be your favorite.


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## Burton Kent

meadmaker1 said:


> JOA is a love/hate wine.
> Ive had people ask if they could buy some and had someone standing next to them looking for some place to spit it out.
> If you would tend to leave orange zest out of a recipe it probably wont be your favorite.


I said leave out pith, not zest. Zest is awesome.

But ok, I get it's part of the recipe.


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