# Help Trimming/Managing Vines



## scubaman2151 (Feb 25, 2008)

Hi guys.


Well I have these grape vines in the backyard and they have never been properly trimmed or grown. They were there when we bought the house and we would just cut them back when they got too big. Well its time to start doing things right. I don't know how old these are maybe you guys could give me a clue on that, I believe they are at least 19 years old. There are 2 vines and they both are concord vines.









Lol don't worry about the x-mas lights those will come down.








First vine^.








Second Vine^.








Both vines^.








The mangled heap of vines on top of the wires.








Same^.








There used to be vines here, 2 I think but I'm not sure what happened to them. I would like to put 2 new vines into here but do I need to keep them concord vines as well or can I put like a vinifera type grape vine in?
OK update. I went out today and took another more in depth look at the vines. I will be referring to the pics like that first one posted is pic #1, the 2nd one posted is pic #2 and so on.

If you look at picture #2 there is actually 2 separate vines in that picture. The larger more thick one to the left and the smaller one from the right.

Then if you look in that last pic posted to-wards the back right before the back metal pole there is a 2ft-ish long piece of black. That is actually a vine that got cut off somewhere along the way. That is slowing growing back so I would need some advice on how to help that grow in the right direction. (We are supposed to get like 8in of snow tonight but if we don't Ill get some more up close pics for you guys tomorrow.) So in total I have 4 vines. 2 real close together, one by itself, then the one on the far right.

Now if you look at pics 2 the main vine to the right grows up about 1ft then sort of splits off into three trunks (Not sure if thats the right word) but one trunk is a little larger then the others. The second smaller vine to the right of the pic has basically one main vine that goes up into the trellis and then goes into smaller vines. In pic #3 that vine has that one main trunk that you can see then those two smaller trunks.

Now all these trunks feed into the top of the trellis and then all gathers into that big mess on top that you can see. What I was planning on doing was following the main trunks and as soon as the trunks hit the top of the trellis I would start trimming there. Just basically cut everything back except for as far as those trunks go then let the vines grow back this year so I can help them grow in the right direction or as evenly as possible. How does this sound?


Thanks for reading.


Scuba


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## grapeman (Feb 25, 2008)

Well Scuba, I see a lot of potential here. The arbor was probably started with a single vine on each of the six posts. I would work towards that again. The one side has died out. You have a couple options. Transplant the extra smaller one at one of the locations or get a few replacements. Do you want to replace them with more Concords or replace them with some other variety? I cover this first instead of pruning, because getting new vines started takes longer than getting one already established pruned and bearing. Decide what kinds you want and let us know- someone might have a couple for you.


Now for pruning. If you prune too severly this year, you won't get a crop. I would bring the vines back mainly to the bigger wood near the top, pruning most of the smaller canes off, but leave a few of the nice ones about a pencil's diameter running across the top. That will allow new canes to come from the buds on it's length and fill in the top and give you some grapes this year. Let some of the canes come off the main trunks to fill in the sides. This is pruned for an arbor which maximizes the sunlight and air movement. It is different than pruning for a two or three wire trellis. You can develop a slightly fuller arbor as you get other vines on the other side. 


I think you have a pretty good idea of how to begin since you have read the book From Vines to Wines.


Keep us in the loop of your progress and let us know what other vines you would like. I think I would stay away from Vinifera since you are in a fairly cold climate and just have a few vines. Have fun Scubaman.


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## Wade E (Feb 25, 2008)

I know absolutely nothing about growing grapes scuba but hope that you can get these in check as my friend had a neighbor with a set-up similiar to this and it was insanely growing grapes. It was like sitting under a grape shaded area like a cabana. Good luck and hope you get the help you need and someday you can teach me.


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## scubaman2151 (Feb 26, 2008)

Well I wanted to plant 3 new vines. I was hoping to plant merlot vines, but I didnt know if the temp where I live was to cold. In the last 10 years the lowest temp ever was -2*F. So I think merlot vines would work ok.


Scuba


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## grapeman (Feb 26, 2008)

Scuba, the Merlot would grow, but would be very borderline. They MIGHT survive, but the buds would probably die back most years and you wouldn't get a crop. Here is some information from Cornell on them. 





<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>



</TD>
<TD>Merlot</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Origin:</TD>
<TD>Bordeaux, France</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Source:</TD>
<TD>Federal Research Station Geiweilerhof, West Germany</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>







<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="50%">Back to Other Reds</TD>
<TD width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Color:</TD>
<TD>Blue/black</TD>
<TD>Fruit Maturity:</TD>
<TD>Mid-late season</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Clusters</TD>
<TD>Medium, cylindrical, shouldered</TD>
<TD>Wood Maturity:</TD>
<TD>Moderately late</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Berry:</TD>
<TD>12-17 mm, round</TD>
<TD>Cold Hardiness:</TD>
<TD>Tender - 2</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Cluster Compactness:</TD>
<TD>Well filled</TD>
<TD>Killing Temperature:</TD>
<TD>-9.4°</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Disease &amp; Disorders:</TD>
<TD>Botrytis, crown gall</TD>
<TD>Relative Vigor:</TD>
<TD>Moderate on C.3309</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Location</TD>
<TD>Year</TD>
<TD>Wt. (lb)</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD>
<TD>(grams)</TD>
<TD>(Tons/Acre)</TD>
<TD>Date</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Fredonia</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>1.4</TD>
<TD>69</TD>
<TD>117</TD>
<TD>2.1</TD>
<TD>34629</TD>
<TD>21.7</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>2.5</TD>
<TD>56</TD>
<TD>79</TD>
<TD>2</TD>
<TD>34616</TD>
<TD>20.4</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>2.9</TD>
<TD>54</TD>
<TD>112</TD>
<TD>3.1</TD>
<TD>34599</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>2.3</TD>
<TD>60</TD>
<TD>103</TD>
<TD>2.4</TD>
<TD>34605</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Geneva</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>0.7</TD>
<TD>78</TD>
<TD>108</TD>
<TD>2.4</TD>
<TD>34624</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>2.1</TD>
<TD>84</TD>
<TD>136</TD>
<TD>4.5</TD>
<TD>34620</TD>
<TD>--</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>3.1</TD>
<TD>67</TD>
<TD>98</TD>
<TD>3.3</TD>
<TD>34592</TD>
<TD>18</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>2</TD>
<TD>76</TD>
<TD>114</TD>
<TD>3.4</TD>
<TD>34612</TD>
<TD>19.5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Hudson</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Valley</TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>0.8</TD>
<TD>51</TD>
<TD>--</TD>
<TD>3.6</TD>
<TD>34600</TD>
<TD>17.3</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>0.6</TD>
<TD>63</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>0.9</TD>
<TD>34593</TD>
<TD>20.3</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>0.7</TD>
<TD>57</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>2.3</TD>
<TD>34596</TD>
<TD>18.8</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Long Isle</TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>1.9</TD>
<TD>--</TD>
<TD>76</TD>
<TD>1.2</TD>
<TD>34611</TD>
<TD>17.4</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>3.8</TD>
<TD>56</TD>
<TD>117</TD>
<TD>2.9</TD>
<TD>34614</TD>
<TD>22.8</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>4.9</TD>
<TD>72</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>2.9</TD>
<TD>34614</TD>
<TD>Rot</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>3.5</TD>
<TD>43</TD>
<TD>92</TD>
<TD>2.3</TD>
<TD>34613</TD>
<TD>20.1</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Summary:</TD>
<TD>Botrytis infections are not uncommon, but not a major problem in most years. The trunks are winter tender and subject to crown gall attack. Perhaps a more restirictive rootstock would help attain wood maturation. Because it ripens before the o</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Recommendations:</TD>
<TD>Can only be recommended for superior sites.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="50%">http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/vinfvar/otherreds.htmlBack to Other Reds</TD>
<TD width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>






If you want vinifera, a better choice would probably be Cab Franc- much hardier and ripens relatively early. It is one of the parents of Cab Sauvignon.. 

























<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>

</TD>
<TD>
<H1>*Cabernet franc*</H1>
<H1>
<TABLE height=29 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=174><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="50%" height=17>Back to Red Variety List</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=middle width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



</H1></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Origin:</TD>
<TD>France</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Source:</TD>
<TD>Austin Goheen University of California, USDA Davis, California</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
Color:</TD>
<TD>blue/black</TD>
<TD>
Fruit Maturity:</TD>
<TD>Late</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Clusters:</TD>
<TD>Medium, conic often winged</TD>
<TD>
Wood Maturity:Moderately late</TD>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Berry:</TD>
<TD>11-13 mm, round</TD>
<TD>
Cold Hardiness:</TD>
<TD>Hardy - 5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Cluster Compactness:</TD>
<TD>Loose</TD>
<TD>
Killing Temperature:</TD>
<TD>-16.6°F</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Disease &amp; Disorders:</TD>
<TD>None</TD>
<TD>
Relative Vigor:</TD>
<TD>Medium to high on C. 3309</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>Location</TD>
<TD>Year</TD>
<TD>Wt. (lb)</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD>
<TD>(grams)</TD>
<TD>(Tons/Acre)</TD>
<TD>Date</TD>
<TD>(%)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Geneva</TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>1.8</TD>
<TD>84</TD>
<TD>87</TD>
<TD>3.5</TD>
<TD>34259</TD>
<TD>21</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>4.3</TD>
<TD>88</TD>
<TD>150</TD>
<TD>6</TD>
<TD>34255</TD>
<TD>15.2</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>5.2</TD>
<TD>76</TD>
<TD>84</TD>
<TD>2.7</TD>
<TD>34247</TD>
<TD>20.7</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>3.8</TD>
<TD>83</TD>
<TD>107</TD>
<TD>4.1</TD>
<TD>34251</TD>
<TD>19</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>Long Isle</TD>
<TD>1985</TD>
<TD>3.6</TD>
<TD>--</TD>
<TD>105</TD>
<TD>7.7</TD>
<TD>34241</TD>
<TD>18.5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1986</TD>
<TD>5</TD>
<TD>75</TD>
<TD>111</TD>
<TD>3.9</TD>
<TD>34249</TD>
<TD>21.5</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>1987</TD>
<TD>5.9</TD>
<TD>82</TD>
<TD>101</TD>
<TD>3.6</TD>
<TD>34249</TD>
<TD>20.6</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD>Mean</TD>
<TD>4.8</TD>
<TD>52</TD>
<TD>106</TD>
<TD>5.1</TD>
<TD>34246</TD>
<TD>19.4</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=4 width=450 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD>
Summary:</TD>
<TD>Vine and fruit is similar to Cabernet Sauvignon, but growth is more moderate, canes ripen earlier and are more winter hardy, approaching that of White Riesling in most years. Fruit ripens with or slightly before Cabernet Sauvignon. In France the variety</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
Recommedations:</TD>
<TD>Recommended for areas with a long growing season.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

<TABLE height=29 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=174><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD align=middle width="50%" height=17>Back to Red Variety List</TD>
<TD vAlign=top align=middle width="50%">Back to Table of Contents</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman (Feb 26, 2008)

Scuba, I don't have any Merlot and just 25 Cab Franc planted last year so I can't speak for them. Another non-vinifera vine you might consider is Corot Noir. It is a very promising cold hardy variety that would be well suited to your site. Here is a link to a pdf file describing all about it. I could let you get 3 of them this spring when the ground thaws for just the cost of shipping to you.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/reisch/bulletin/Corot_noir.pdf


Here is a picture of the clusters.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 1, 2008)

I talked to Double A vineyards and here is what they told me: 


"The Merlot grapes are probably the most difficult variety that we
carry to grow. They are probably too tender for where you are and would
require a pretty good spray regimen to keep them disease free. You may
want
to consider Chambourcin or Noiret as an alternative. Sue"


Do you guys know anything about either of the vines she recommended?


Thanks for the reccomendations so far as well. I am tending to shy away from the Cab Frac right now because im not sure how close of a taste it has to Cab Sav. I really dont like Cab Sav too much.*Edited by: Scubaman2151 *


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## grapeman (Mar 2, 2008)

Noiret grapes are one of the newly released varieties from Cornell that were extensively tested. I have a bit of experience with them and they grow well even up here. The are pretty early ripeners so they should be great there. They are lighter on the heavy tannins than is Cab Franc and Corot Noir, so if you don't care for those heavier attributes, than Mpoiret should work very well for you. Here is a bit of information on them.


A mid-season red wine grape suitable for the production of varietal wines that will be richly colored with notes of greenand black pepper, raspberry and mint aromas, and fine tannin structure.
‘Noiret’™ is a complex interspecific hybrid red wine grape resulting from a cross made in 1973 between NY65.0467.08 and‘Steuben’. Moderately winter hardy. Moderately resistant to powdery mildew, black rotand botrytis bunch rot.Downy mildew can occasionally be a serious problem.Spring frost not usually a problem. Budbreak usually takes place after Concord and GR7, but before most _V. vinifera _cultivars.
Harvested between late September and early October. No special problems with machine harvesting.Excellent wine quality – superior to other red hybridvarieties.
*Overall Recommendation *- ‘Noiret’™ represents a distinct improvement in the red wine varietal options available to cold-climate grape growers. Wines are free of the hybrid aromas typical of many other red hybrid grapes. Care should be taken to grow ‘Noiret’ on sites less susceptible to extreme winter temperatures, and downy mildew.
•• ••• •••


<DIV align=center>


<DIV align=center>
<DIV align=left>I don't have any experience with Chambourcin, but there are good things said about that older variety.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 2, 2008)

I am going to head to the store and get a bottle of Cab Sav and Cab Franc and re-try those two and see how they are again. Then I will go from there. Are any of these going to need to be sprayed?


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## grapeman (Mar 2, 2008)

Unfortunately Scubaman, pretty much all grapes along the east side of the Mississippi will need some sprays. You can reduce the number of sprays with certain cultural practices and can get away with just a few per year on the drier years. You don't need to use chemicals as there are some organic sprays that you can use to reduce or prevent most diseases. With just a few vines you don't need to worry much about most insect pests.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 2, 2008)

Any idea what I would need? Also I have a dog how would these chemicals effect him? What happens if I dont spray?


Scuba


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## grapeman (Mar 2, 2008)

I won't get into a discussion of what sprays to use. You can read labels at the garden centers or ask there what you can legally use in your area. You can also ask a local extension agent for recommendations. I will say that you can use quite safe materials for home use. One such material is simple baking soda for powdery mildew- as an example. It not only helps prevent it, it also will kill it to some extent. Some guys spray with milk with limited sucess. Ask what diseases you have locally and what can be used.


You can also help limit disease pressure by keeping the foliage far enough appart to allow better air movement. This slows down diseases from getting established. Lots to the subject. You can't get a really quick simple answer. It will need to come in time.


Get the vines in and growing and the old ones pruned first. You won't need a lot of spray for the first year.


Here is a link to a site with other links to tons of information- especially Cornell. They are one of the leaders on the east coast in research and development of new varieties.


http://pss.uvm.edu/grape/


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## rodman (Mar 3, 2008)

Scuba if I remember correctly you live in the Cleveland area, if not this post may not help. I planted 50 vines last year and researched Chambourcin grapes. What I found was that they would be very borderline for our area and may need special care to have them winter. I decided being a novice that I wanted varieties that would give me a better chance at success. I did in fact plant Corot Noir and Noreit as 2 of the 5 varieties that I planted.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 3, 2008)

Yes you are correct I am in Cleveland. East side. I hear were getting more snow tonight . What do you think of the Noreit? I am kinda on the fence between the Cab Franc and the Noreit.


Scuba


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## rodman (Mar 3, 2008)

I only plantedmine last spring, so I can't give youmuch info. I'm sure appleman can give you better advice. I do think you will be better off with either of them than the Chambourcin unless you are right on thelake. If you live close enough to the lake you maybeable to plant a less hardy variety.


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## grapeman (Mar 3, 2008)

Scuba, unless you are hung up on a vinifera grape, I woild go with the Noiret. Cab Franc will be borderline also for your location- will ripen in a good year, and other years will be a low sugar acid monster. The Noiret was bred in NY and is ideally suited for your locale. I have had Noiret grapes to try, but didn't get to make wine with any last year. They are a truly impressive looking grape and the taste is much more vinifera like than other hybrids. I currently am growing them and will be looking forward to vinifying them in the next year or two.


I also have Cab Franc planted, but don't expect them to make it some years to ripening. They were to slowest growing smallest vines I planted last year.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 3, 2008)

Works for me. You have persuaded me, I am going to get the Noiret. I will contact Double A Vineyards Wednesday to find out when these need to be planted.


Scuba


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## grapeman (Mar 3, 2008)

I would estimate you would want to plant them between Mid and Late April where you are(if the snow has melted and ground thawed).


If you are given the choice between 1-yr and 1X-yr you might want the larger ones. They have more root reserve to them and will get off to a faster start. You will dig a bigger hole and they will potentially give you a better vine for mere pennies extra. I just checked and see they only have #1 - 1 year vines right now in own rooted and grafted. Check with them and they might have a few larger ones though.
Good luck whatever you plant.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks, Ill be sure to keep you updated.


Back to the other old vines. When I prune those back I want to prune anything smaller the the size of a pencil right? Everywhere and anywhere, if its under a pencil size it get pruned?


Scuba


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## grapeman (Mar 3, 2008)

That would be a start but don't prune excessively at first. You will need some one year wood(smooth bark and a copper color) for the new growth to come from and get grapes from. It has gotten quite stringy the last couple years. Let some stuff grow a bit even if it is just a little small. You can prune some more out next year to get it a bit better shape. Watch it as it grows this year and you begin to get a feel for what the different types of bark and wood are. *Edited by: appleman *


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 4, 2008)

Ok I need 1 year wood. Lets say there is a vine of 1 year wood that is 10ft long (just saying). Can I cut that back to 2ft? 5ft? and still be ok, or do I have to leave it alone?


Scuba


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## grapeman (Mar 4, 2008)

You would cut it back to a couple feet, since you have a bunch of them. There are formulas for how many buds to leave, but I think you need more instructions and experience before you worry about that.


One thing that would be very helpful to you would be if there was a vineyard in your area. You go to them and offer to help prune for a while. They show you the basics and you help them for a day and learn the basics of what to look for on actual linving vines. That is about the best way to get a good grasp on how to do it.


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## peterCooper (Mar 4, 2008)

Having read about a million articles on pruning, I think there is definitely a need for someone out there to do a pictorial (or video) tutorial on how and when to prune. I'm just confused on the issue. fortunately I only just put in a couple of Le Noir this week so I don't have to prune until next winter (I think)


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## grapeman (Mar 4, 2008)

peter that is part of the problem, there are about a million ways to do it depending on variety, area of the country, growing conditions,etc.


Here is a link to some videos done covering mainly spur type pruning, but can be adaped for other styles such as cane pruning, which Scuba will be doing.
http://www.finevinewines.com//Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5138


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 4, 2008)

There is vineyards by me but it seems weird that they would let me come help considering I have no idea what im doing .


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## Wade E (Mar 4, 2008)

You will be doing other things for them also in exchange Im sure. I have a local vineyard that also does this and if you do enough work for them they give you a case of wine or grapes for you to take home and ferment yourself. Gee how i wish i had the time but 99% of the time that I dont have to work Im watching my kids cause my wife is at work. Cant wait till the kids get a little older so I can have a built in baby sitter.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 4, 2008)

I would ask to help with the prunning taking place here in the next month of so right?


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## grapeman (Mar 5, 2008)

Yes that's right Scuba. You won't learn specifically how to do yours, but you will learn what to look for and then adapt that to your conditions.


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## Tomy (Mar 5, 2008)

Other than learning on the job how to prune you can see for yourself how they mulch, what chemicals they use for pest control,so much more,and the tools of the trade so to speak. I would jump at the chance to help at a vineyard, but alas there is none close by. Tomy


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## BonnieJoy (Mar 9, 2008)

Scuba - Noiret makes a very nice red wine. You won't be disappointed. If you want to taste test, Presque Isle in North East PA produces Noiret varietal. I had the privilege of sampling from the barrel last Summer









Good luck with your grape arbor. I'm sure with all the help you get on this forum it'll be awesome.


Bonnie


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 26, 2008)

Well 99% of the snow has finally melted and the temp hit about 45* so I went out and started pruning my vines. Considering I didnt know too much what I was doing I think I did pretty well. I got rid of all the dead vines that we just hanging around, cut back most of the vines that were under the size of a pencil. I didnt trim them too far back just becuase it might get cold again but once I get everything cleaned up back there I will post some more pics.


Scuba


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## grapeman (Mar 26, 2008)

Sounds good Scuba. It got up to about 45 here today also. We have lost about 6 inches of snow in the last 2 days. If we could get to about 45-55 and stay there during the day I would be happy. I actually saw a dozen robins on a neighbor's lawn today! First ones I have seen since last fall!


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## swillologist (Mar 26, 2008)

I am going to go out and see if I can kill my vines tomorrow. I try to use a four-cane kniffin. I don't know if it is the right one to use or not. It's just what I am used too. It's the one that Dad always used. He just grew concords for juice and jelly.


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## farmer (Mar 26, 2008)

I am going to try to prune this week end . The snow is gone but now there is mud. 
I need to start training my Frontenac vines, does anyone have a suggestion on what method I should use? I have been looking at articles on-line and foundmany different opinions.
Double A Vineyards suggest high wire cordon. A local vineyard I visited last summer was using four-cane kniffin and on the Minnesota grape grower forum one grower said he uses VSP for all the hybrid wine varieties.


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## grapeman (Mar 27, 2008)

The Frontenac is generally a vigorous vine and will adapt to just about any system pruned to. I would say a lot depends on what you are comfortable with pruning. You need to keep the vine in balance to prevent it from becoming overly vigorous. You need enough fruit so it doesn't put on too much vegetation. I have both 4 arm kniffen and VSP for the Frontenac to compare types on my soil. I have seen a similar soil use VSP for the Frontenac and it works very well. The fruit ripen more evenly and it keeps the vigor down on the Frontenac.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 29, 2008)

The deer came to visit as I was prunning .


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## grapeman (Mar 29, 2008)

Looks like the snow is gone! Yeah! I see you have 3 sets of pruners there. Shouldn't take long to prune the vines with those helping. LOL


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 29, 2008)

Lol thats not even half of them. I saw 8 running around the other morning.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 31, 2008)

Some updated pics of the vines after I prunned.


















I also ordered my Noriet vines today.


I plan on planting them right here:






But should I plant the vine right under the vertical wire so the vine can climb up it, or should I plant it in the middle of the two vertical wires and then just have the vine jump up to the next horizontal wires?


Thanks,


Scuba


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## grapeman (Mar 31, 2008)

I would plant in the middle. The vine will attach itself where it wants. If you try to run it right up the wire, it may rub and cause problems.


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## scubaman2151 (Mar 31, 2008)

Thanks, hows the prunning job? To much, to little?


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## grapeman (Mar 31, 2008)

It will probably be good for year one. You could take off more, but if you go too heavy handed it throws the vine into vegetative mode instead of a good bearing mode.


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## scubaman2151 (Apr 16, 2008)

Ok so I got my 3 vines in today and they look great. I let the roots soak in water for about 2hrs then I planted them. I had some trouble with the holes, they were only about 1 - 1 1/2 ft deep. Question though, 2 of the 3 vines are planted on the right side of the arbor when looking stright at it. These are on a incline and when I water them 75% of the water runs down and away from the vines taking some soil with it. Any suggestions on how I can get more water to the roots and less running down the hill?


Scuba


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## grapeman (Apr 17, 2008)

Make a berm around the vines with the top of it level. Just take some soil and mound it up in a circle around the vine, leaving a depression in the middle where the vine is. About a foot and a half is good. Then you just fill the hole like you would a bowl. Don't overdo it with the water.


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## scubaman2151 (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks, will do.


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## scubaman2151 (Apr 21, 2008)

I got a EXCELLENT ideafrom another forum about how to water on a hill. Take a water bottle, cut open both ends so you have a tube like thing. Diga hole on the hill above your plant and then put the bottle into the hole. Water through the bottle and all the water goes into the dirt and gets to the roots without running off. I have been doing this for a few days now and this works very very well. I also did this with some ornimental grass I have on a hillside. 




Scuba*Edited by: Scubaman2151 *


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## grapeman (Apr 21, 2008)

Yeah I saw that hint- it is a great one. You can also use a milk jug and drill a small 1/8 inch hole in the bottom. Fill the jug up and place it near the vine. It will take hours to empty the jug and slowly soak in the ground. With larger amounts of vines to do, I find the little berm method much quicker for me. I make the small berms when I plant and then when I need to water I just run it into the depression that holds about 2 gallons. Takes about 20 seconds to fill up so it is much quicker for me.


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## NorthernWinos (Apr 21, 2008)

_I use the berm method on all my plants...cabbages to zucchini...currants to grapes..roses...etc ...After I plant something it is just natural now to make a little basin around each plant....It makes watering so much easier.

Why is the font like this????
_


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## scubaman2151 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well I have been watering and checking on my vines quite a bit. Finally the buds have been opening and the flowers are starting to come out. I am glad to see this and I hope that the vines are taking.


Scuba


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## grapeman (Apr 26, 2008)

Is it the new vines or your old ones that have flower clusters? It is always good to see some growth. Before you know it they will be going gangbusters.


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## Wade E (Apr 26, 2008)

NW, you must have inadvertently hit the Italic button. Glad to hear that your vines are doing good Scuba. Hopefully you can make a batch of your own wine in the next few years.


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## scubaman2151 (Apr 27, 2008)

The new vines have some flowers on them, not to many maybe 2-3 on each vine and they are still small but they are growing. The old vines have a bunch of flowers and those are much larger.


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## scubaman2151 (May 3, 2008)

Update on the vines. One is doing pretty well the buds are opening and there is a few leaves coming out, the other 2 are slower but they are coming along, probley becuase they are getting less sunlight. 













The other 2:










The old vines:










I know its not the best growing conditions but it seems to be working well enough.


Scuba*Edited by: Scubaman2151 *


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## grapeman (May 3, 2008)

Things look like they are going pretty good there Scuba. I hope you guys are past frosty mornings. They are opening up pretty good now. Here's hoping your old vines give you some grapes this year. You should see flower clusters pretty soon.


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## Wade E (May 3, 2008)

Looking good Scuba.


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## scubaman2151 (May 3, 2008)

It has been raining steadly up here for the past week so I havent been able to get back there and do any work. I have to weed a little bit then I want to lay some mulch around the base of the vines. Do you think I will get any grapes from these new vines this year?


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## grapeman (May 3, 2008)

You don't want to get any grapes from the new vines. If they get flowers, the clusters should be removed to allow the vine to grow a healthy rootsystem. The recommendations are to wait until the third year to take a limited crop and then the fourth year take a full crop. It is hard to wait, but if you crop much too soon, it stunts the vines and limits future yields a lot.


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## Wade E (May 3, 2008)

I heard that putting mulch down around the vines make them susceptible to fungus's. Is this true appleman?


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## scubaman2151 (May 3, 2008)

Thanks for the advice Apple. Someone else told me that I should cut back some buds so there is only 2-3 buds on each vine. Should I do this? If yes, which buds do I leave, the top buds, the lower buds?


Scuba


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## grapeman (May 4, 2008)

Wade the mulch is OK if not too thick to harbor insects and rodents. Mulch is one of those arguments that basically comes down to personnal preferences.


Scuba, when the guy says to cut back to 2-3 buds, he means chop off the top 2/3 of your vine before planting so you basically have a little stub left. By doing that, you leave just a few buds and the vine can put more energy into growing those few shoots. Yours are fine like they are in my opinion. What you need to be working on this year is developing strong roots and lots of root reserves. To do this, you let all the shoots grow this year to provide food through photosynthesis. That way, next year you make probably the hardest cuts to be made and cut your poor vine back severly to about a foot tall. That forces all those stored reserves into the few buds left and your vine will grow better for it next year. It gives larger trunk diameter. If you leave weak spindly trunks, the new growth will actually be bigger than the supporting trunk and hurt the vine in the long run. Just remember there are many ways to do everything and no real right way or wrong way. Choose what you are comfortable with and work with that. You only have a few vines, so who cares if they are different than some other persons.


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## NorthernWinos (May 4, 2008)

If you could lay some landscape fabric, or even a thick layer of newspapers around the base of the vine would sure help...then put some sort of mulch over it...This would kill the grasses and conserve moisture, at least for a year or two till the vines get established....Otherwise once your grasses grow up around the vine you'll be wanting to use the weed whip and might damage the vine.

Just my two cents.


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## scubaman2151 (Aug 11, 2008)

Here is a update of my vines:









































And the vine that died ^


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 11, 2008)

Scuba...Thanks for Posting your photos....Always nice to see others vines and yards...etc.

Your first photo looks like an ivy...what variety is that grape....I find it interesting that different varieties have different shaped leaves.

Your last vine needs a decent burial....


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## Wade E (Aug 11, 2008)

Looks great Scuba, how many hours of sun do they get per day you think? I would like to do something like that but dont think it would get enough sunlight but I see yours in the shade doing okay.


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## scubaman2151 (Aug 11, 2008)

Northern: As far as I know they are all concord grape vines that have been allowed to grow wherever they wanted for the past 2 decades. This was the first year they got a proper trimming.
Wade: Those vines probley get around 3hrs of light in the morning, it doesnt do anything but it is light. The good sun starts right at noon and goes to around 5-7. So they do get light but not a whole ton.


Scuba


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## Wade E (Aug 11, 2008)

I dont think any of my back yard gets that much. I would have to top off some awfully large trees in my woods to get that much!


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## scubaman2151 (Aug 12, 2008)

I mean dont get me wrong, its not great sunlight but I guess its sunlight none the less. Those two vines are right behind a garage and next to a whole oak tree.


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## AlFulchino (Aug 12, 2008)

the best sunlight to get is themorning sunight....and that pretty much goes for all plants


looks like you are doing well ressurecting the vines...nice to see


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## grapeman (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks for the update Scuba. The grapes seem to have done pretty well this year for you in spite of the weather. You even have some grapes this year after the heavy pruning. The canopy should have developed more fruitful buds this year for next year. The trellis shoul be covered next year with both lush growth and grapes hanging down. Check the roots of the vine that died and see if something ate it. Very unusual that it would die like that after making some nice growth.


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## scubaman2151 (Aug 13, 2008)

OK ill check the roots. The vine the died was planted rather close to a large tree, would the trees massive root system interfere with the grape vine? I figured it might be something like that.


Scuba


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## grapeman (Aug 13, 2008)

Yes the tree would rob a bunch of water and could make it dry. I'm not sure it would kill it though. Some trees do give off a toxic substance to keep competition down. It may just be too close to the tree.


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## scubaman2151 (May 15, 2009)

Well spring is here again and it gladdens me to see everything green and growing. I have trimmed the grapevines again (not the new ones, the old ones) and started to clean up the yard. This is the second year now the new vines have been in and I must say I am very pleased with how much growing they have done. Even since this year has started they have just shot up with new growth and buds. I'm keeping them to the arbor that is already there and will let them start to work their way up it. I trimmed the old vines and the tree well so that the new vines should get plenty of sun this year.

Scuba


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## grapeman (May 15, 2009)

Hey Scuba, how have ya been. It's been ages since you popped in. I was wondering how things were with you the other day.


Good to hear things are starting out well this year.


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