# The analytics of an excellent wine?



## NorCal (Apr 24, 2014)

From my complete newbie view, I see four key analytics that can provide numbers as a key indicators on how a wine is going to taste. Is this accurate? Are there other key areas that can be measured?

If you were looking to make a Cab that was a bit sweet, really smooth with medium fruit, medium alcohol and good bouquet, what would you be looking for in terms of the analytics? What are the minimum and the maximum for these key indicators?


PH
Sugar
Alcohol
TA


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## jdmyers (Apr 24, 2014)

I say unless your entering a competition the only thing that matters is taste. Its your wine and you are the primary consumer. If you love it then its exactly correct


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## NorCal (Apr 24, 2014)

I guess I should have prefaced this with that I'm an engineer and I have an end goal of making a wine that could stand up to judging. I'm willing to spend the time and effort to make something really good.


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## 4score (Apr 24, 2014)

Great topic. I'm interested in hearing the responses. I have a cab franc barrel going and I know so far I'm a bit on the high side of ph (3.8). Also, my MLF didn't quite complete before I stopped it. In October malic was 2.46 and I'm at .92 now. So, the higher ph and "some" MLF will give me some "softness" that I'm after. The winery that tested my wine gave mine a TA reading of 6.85. I'm not even sure how to read that much less determine what to do about it!

I know you must be careful with your SO2. Enough to keep things clean, but too much will spoil your bouquet you're after. Because my ph is high, I have to put heavier doses of SO2.

In terms of sugar, my latest test result showed glucose/fructose of 1.64. Anyone know what this means?

I would like to take samples of local winery wines that I love and run the tests to establish a benchmark to shoot for. I wonder if I found two or three wines from different wineries that I especially love, and tested them, if I could find a common benchmark to shoot for in my next project? By the same token, run a couple wines that I'm NOT too fond of and see what is different in the test results.

Don't you just love this hobby.....so much to learn and play with!


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## cmason1957 (Apr 25, 2014)

I hate to break this to a fellow engineer, but there are no hard and fast numbers. All of the numbers you want would be in ranges and depend. 

A dry red will generally be about 3.2-3.4 ph, with very low residual sugar (if any) TA will be 0.6-0.65. Alcohol around 12-14%.

Try those numbers with a sweet fruit wine and it will be Crap. The bottom line is make them taste like you like them. Then they are good to you. Everyone else may call them Crap, but you like them.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 25, 2014)

To pile on to what cmason stated, it's all about balance. In other words, if you have a wine with a low pH, that might be balanced with residual sugar, etc. You don't want acid, sweetness, or alcohol being dominant. They all have to play well together. Having said that, there are "target" ranges for all of these things, based on the kind of wine you're making.

You can get your TA to be exactly .63% on every wine you make. But that will taste very different on a wine that fermented to .998, vs another identical wine that somehow got down to .992.


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## GreginND (Apr 25, 2014)

These might be analytics of what could be construed as a palatable wine, but there are no analytics to define an "excellent" wine. Sorry. As a scientist I originally approached winemaking by the numbers. And then I quickly realized aside from basic balance of the chemistry, the rest is luck, nature and the artistry and palate of the winemaker.


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## JohnT (Apr 25, 2014)

I agree with all said so far and would add the following.. 

The analytics are important for a wine's protection and good health. It is also important for balance, but has very little to do with having an excellent wine. So much more is at play here. 

To me, the most important factors are Color, Flavor, and Clarity. Most competitions are judged, in large part, on these three categories. While having the wrong levels in your listed analytics can affect color, flavor, and clarity, in a negative way, having the right levels is no 
guarantee of having excellent color, flavor, and clarity.

I can have a Welch's "wine" with perfect TA, PH, Brix, and ABV, but that don't make it a premier Cru.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 25, 2014)

I think what everyone is saying is "spot on". Wine making is both a science and an art and ultimately it is about how you use the science to create the art. The "analytics" are not really very informative except as part of the process. And to take one extreme example, you could hit every one of the factors you suggest are key but if you used a different yeast the taste might be very different or if you fermented the wine 5 degrees cooler different esters might be more or less pronounced. You could make your wine absolutely to spec but its mouthfeel could be watery or the taste might fail to linger in your mouth. So more useful "analytics" might be appearance, color, smell, taste, ... and those are not as quantifiable as pH or ABV


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## JohnT (Apr 25, 2014)

Good point Bernard. I would also add the type and duration of oak, the option of MLF, and also the length of macerating the grapes are also factors that affect the wine but not necessarily the analytics.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 25, 2014)

I would sum up as:

Necessary, but not sufficient.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 25, 2014)

JohnT said:


> . I would also add the type and duration of oak, the option of MLF, and also the length of macerating the grapes are also factors that affect the wine but not necessarily the analytics.



Absolutely. My point was not so much about what can affect the wine as about what the right kind of "analytics" look like and I guess the upshot of my post - and I think what everyone is saying is that the real factors are not measurable but are qualitative (the complexity of the flavors, the clarity of the color, the pleasure you get from the aromas (the nose). HOW you achieve this and whether you achieve this every time depends on your understanding of the science that under-girds wine making and your mastery of technique.


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## Calamity Cellars (Apr 25, 2014)

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s&[email protected] Start with fantastic fruit and stay out of the way unless flaws develop. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## NorCal (Apr 25, 2014)

Thank you for the replies and not the responses I expected, which I suspect points to how much I have to learn. I had thought there were limits to the key indicators and if you were trying to achieve a certain end point, that you would adjust the must in a way that it will give you the end product you desire.


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## NorCal (Apr 25, 2014)

Calamity Cellars said:


> You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s&[email protected] Start with fantastic fruit and stay out of the way unless flaws develop.



I spoke to a commercial winemaker tonight, that I respect and he pretty much said the same thing; 95% grapes, 5% keeping it sanitized.


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## Turock (Apr 30, 2014)

I've been reading this thread and thinking how subjective this question is. And the one thing I can say is what some of you have already stated--it's mostly about the quality of the fruit used. AND you really need to know the characteristics of the fruit--the characteristics of THAT grape that you're using. Now a beginner will have a tough time determining that. It takes experience--or asking people who regularly work with that fruit or grape. This why I don't answer threads where the question is on a grape or fruit that I don't work with--because I'm not familiar with its characteristics. That is paramount, in my opinion.

So my best advice is to ask the forum these kinds of questions WHEN you have narrowed down the fruit or grape you want to ferment. Then we can help you with what to expect--what to shoot for with adjustments,etc. in order to get a good result. You can't talk about this in such generalities but when you focus on one fruit or grape, THEN we can have alot to say about it.


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## Calamity Cellars (Apr 30, 2014)

NorCal said:


> I spoke to a commercial winemaker tonight, that I respect and he pretty much said the same thing; 95% grapes, 5% keeping it sanitized.




I think the 95% number is high. Fermentation temperature, yeast selection, barrel selection etc do play a role. I usually say 80% fruit, 15% winemaker inputs, and 5% wild a$$ luck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Runningwolf (Apr 30, 2014)

Calamity Cellars said:


> I think the 95% number is high. Fermentation temperature, yeast selection, barrel selection etc do play a role. I usually say 80% fruit, 15% winemaker inputs, and 5% wild a$$ luck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



I agree with Calamity, The first 80% is the grape and this is Partnership with the vineyard, vineyard manager and Mother Nature. Unfortunately she is the senior partner.
The rest of it falls on the science and art of the winemaker along with some good luck. You can take an ok vintage of a certain varietal and blend it with something else and make it great or you can have a varietal that finishes absolutely superb.


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## JohnT (Apr 30, 2014)

Runningwolf said:


> I agree with Calamity, The first 80% is the grape and this is Partnership with the vineyard, vineyard manager and Mother Nature. Unfortunately she is the senior partner.
> The rest of it falls on the science and art of the winemaker along with some good luck. You can take an ok vintage of a certain varietal and blend it with something else and make it great or you can have a varietal that finishes absolutely superb.


 
Dan, 

I also agree (and would perhaps lower it even more). 

Believe me, if two winemakers start out with the same grapes, their wine can still turn out vastly different. This is due to the fact that even a minor difference in the process can have a far reaching impact on the final product.


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## berrycrush (Apr 30, 2014)

When we say this wine tastes different from that wine, is the difference mostly from the grape or from the oak?


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 30, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> When we say this wine tastes different from that wine, is the difference mostly from the grape or from the oak?



Yes. 

Truthfully, it could be either one, or both. Or any other number of factors. Two winemakers could be given grapes from the same vineyard, yet still produce dramatically different wines.


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## Calamity Cellars (Apr 30, 2014)

I would argue the other direction. When I am researching vineyards for a particular varietal I do extensive sampling of wines made from different regions in Washington State and narrow it down to a preferred ava. I then narrow the tasting to a particular vineyard and am constantly amazed at how similar wines from different wineries are that source from the same vineyard. Of course there are differences but the similarities overshadow them. I use this fact to ensure that there will be a quality as well as consistency in the vineyard and the resulting wines I make. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## cmason1957 (Apr 30, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> When we say this wine tastes different from that wine, is the difference mostly from the grape or from the oak?



It can be from many things. This past year I and another winemaker friend helped pick grapes at a local winery (Vidal Blanc grapes) we each received 10 gallons of passed juice for our efforts, which we both Fermented without adding any other yeast. In the end these three wines (mine, friends, winemaker) taste nothing alike. My friend added some extra tannin and made a semi-sweet wine, I left mine dry and added almost nothing to it to, the winemaker at the winery did some other things. 

My friend and I both entered or wine into a local wine competition and won folks, his got a slightly higher score than mine.


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## NorCal (May 1, 2014)

Turock said:


> ....So my best advice is to ask the forum these kinds of questions WHEN you have narrowed down the fruit or grape you want to ferment. Then we can help you with what to expect--what to shoot for with adjustments,etc. in order to get a good result. You can't talk about this in such generalities but when you focus on one fruit or grape, THEN we can have alot to say about it.



Thank you for the responses.

I will be using Cabernet Franc, that grows very well in this hot region of California, with cool evening breezes. The vineyard typically makes the grapes available to small lot buyers with brix at 25-26.


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## AKsarben (May 24, 2014)

Acid in the range of minimum of .5 and max in the range of 1.0
pH in the range of 2.98 to 3.7 Whites are better at lower pH and red a bit higher. A higher pH gives sort of a salty flavor to the wine. Best I can describe it.
EtOH (alcohol) in the range of anywhere from 9.5 to 13.9 14 if you must, but in commercial winemaking, that puts you in to a different tax bracket and we avoid it as much as possible. Also, EtOH gives a perceptable sweet flavor to the palate, so 13.8 will seem sweeter/softer than 9.5% will.
Sugar is around 0.5% for dry and up to 1.0 % and should be balanced with the acid. Higher acid wines will require a bit of a tweak of sugar to keep from being too tart. It's called a S/A or Sugar/Acid ratio Sugar divided by the acid will give the S/A. 
All I have said is general and vague, and that is because winemaking is cooking. You decide where the flavor profile is YOU want and strive for that. You can always add a bit of Tartaric acid (before/during cold stabilization to bring down a high pH and raise the acid a touch. After that, small amounts of Malic or Citric acid tweaks will get you there. BTW, if you add a small amount of Citric it binds in with the left over Tartaric and better cold staililizes the wine after the initial cold stabilization. Alcohol will drop cream of tartar.
It's 1000 guesses and many tastes to find what you are looking for. It is not 2 eggs, 1/2 cup of oil, 2 cups of flour, 1 tsp salt, 1 tsp baking soda.... and so on for a cake recipie, as each is variable and different as there are different flowers and fragrances.


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## sdelli (May 25, 2014)

Couldn't agree with Calamity more! You can tell he has a lot of experience. No matter how much I try to select good Chilean grapes..... They will never make wine that taste as good as the wine I make in the fall from grapes in the California Valleys! People think I'm crazy on how much my grapes cost per pound..... Until they taste my wine. Funny thing about good grapes... They tend to want to return to their state of personality. So, even if a slight change is made that you might not like..... Give it time and the start to forgive. I believe winemaking is in the vineyard.... We are just cooks in the kitchen and you know all cooks believe their recipe is the best! 


Sam


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## AKsarben (May 25, 2014)

....then there are the clones of the grapes. Riesling has several as well as does Pinot Noir. A famous French wine maker was asked one time what clone he would choose to do a replant of his vineyard. Saying no specific he said " I would plant a minimum of 3 clones and probably more". Knowing that each clone added that to the mix that maybe some of the others were lacking.

Yes, they are difference in grapes, and wine making starts out there... in the vineyard, AND when it is picked. You pick grapes that have green seeds and I guarantee 100% it is NOT going to be the right flavor of one that has been allowed to mature a bit so that the seeds (and resulting grapes) have matured into the ripe fruit a winemaker is looking for.


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## seth8530 (May 25, 2014)

Interesting thread, honestly I feel that the quality of the grapes is crucial and plays a major role in the flavour profile. However, I also feel that the wine maker also plays a large role.

Ie, do you think that if you had Pinot Noirs from two separate regions and in each region the grapes were fermented two different ways. Say at 55 degrees F with no oak and the other was fermented at say 80 F with oak. I believe that the warm fermented oaked pinot noir from the two different regions would taste more like each other than the warm and cold fermented ones from the same region.

This along with techniques such as surlie, coldsoak, MLF, yeast choice... I feel like their is still a lot of room for the wine maker to have a strong impact on the wine.


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## AKsarben (May 25, 2014)

All things being equal, same vineyard, same grapes, same yeast, same temp at winemaking you would still have different wine if one was picked earlier and one later, both Pinot Noir fermented on the skins at same temp, etc. Grapes make the wine. There is only so much you can do with wine making, but in the end it's the grapes. You can use caution, use good wine making techniques, and if you do exactly like X winemaker Y winemaker and Z winemaker on the same grapes/vineyard, they are going to be pretty much indiscernible from each other. A simple change of yeast, or allowing longer skin contact, addition of tartaric acid from the onset (ESPECIALLY latter in Pinot Noir) will have an impact. You want to see bright cherry red colors, add Tartaric Acid to the Pinot before fermentation. Want to see muddy colors? Allow Pinot to ferment at high pH and you will fight it always to get it to the color you want.


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