# please help, do I need to cement my end posts? general anchor/trellis post question.



## TimTheWiner

So my 120 vines are getting shipping on April 15. I live in CT and hoping the end of April will be a good time to plant. Anyhow. I REALLY want to get my trellising and deer fencing up asap. I know it can wait until later in the year, but expecting our first baby in August, so I want as much as possible done now. My main question is that a lot of websites and university studies I have seen show very sturdy and somewhat complex systems for trellis end posts and bracing, however my rows are ONLY 60' long (12 vines each row). Most area vineyards with much longer rows seem to have more basic setups. My question is do I need the end post angled away from the row (at 45 ° for instance), or is vertical ok. I am using 6"-8" cedar end posts and 4"-6" midposts every 20'. I was planning on just digging about a 10"-12" hole about 2' deep and dropping in the post then surrounding with dry quikrete, and pouring in the required water. Should 1 bag be enough or do I need more? Do I even need to concrete, or are rocks/soil enough (I don't think so). I can also get 30" long earth anchors for about $5 each. I am into this project for almost $2,000 and really can't spend any more. The guy at home depot was saying I need carboard tubes to pour the concrete into the holes (another $4 each) and would need at least 2-3 bags per hole. Just getting very expensive. Any ideas/suggestions? Pics welcome. Thank you!!!


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## grapeman

Forget the concrete if only using one bag for a couple reasons. First it will not be enough to adequately surround the post to keep it from moving. Secondly being in CT you will be subject to frost action which will cause the post to be heaved out of the ground after a few years. The concrete lets the frost get under the post and as it freezes it pushes the post up a couple inches or so. 

60 feet is pretty short and you can get by with just the bigger post on the end, set at a slight angle to allow for a bit of wire sag- as the wire sags a bit it will pull the posts upright. I know you have plenty of stones there so dig the holes a bit bigger and pack the hole with small stones to keep it tight. The stones let the water work through so they don't heave from the frost. 

I know it gets expensive, but you spent most of the money on prepping the site. You don't have a lot more to spend now, so do what you need to for the good of the vineyard. Certainly forget the cardboard tubes- the guy is thinking about normal PT posts setting on top of a concrete footing like you would do for a deck.


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## HillPeople

I agree with Grapeman- forget concrete. In small vineyards with short rows like yours, vertical end posts with a wire or cable tensioning wire to an earth anchor will work fine. I used turnbuckles on the tensioning wire and though somewhat unconventional it works very well. 
I would encourage you to hold off on the trellis work until the soil is prepped, planting holes dug and the vines put in. It will make things so much easier if you're not trying to do all that work with trellis in the way.
Attached a picture of the start of our little vineyard in mid-May 2012- 105 vines, so roughly what you are putting in. It would have been difficult with the trellis in the way.


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## bigdrums2

Ditto. You could do vertical though and brace it with a 2x4.


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## GreginND

There's a point where I see a mix of opinions - plant the vines first or put in your trellis posts first? I was thinking it would be better to first put in the posts (not the wires). This way you minimize the risk of the equipment running over your new vines. 

So -- Put in posts -- plant the vines -- put in wires.

Thoughts?


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## bigdrums2

That's what I did.


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## Brew and Wine Supply

I'm in my 4th year and just setting posts now
I set "t" bars at the ends and some in the mid section and ran just a top wire to keep the bamboo standing up.
If weather is with me I'll get the rest of the posts in soon.
I'm doing like Grapeman said, just lean them back and pack tight. My rows are about 100' long.


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## TimTheWiner

Ok, sounds like great information. Maybe I'll just use concrete for the end posts of the outside deer fence and that's it. I can get 30" long 5" helix earth anchors for $5 each so a much more cost effective option. I like the idea of the slight angle, just not sure how I'll pack rocks under the angled part of the cedar that's in the hole (not like packing around a vertical post) and of course I have hundreds of rocks that were removed from the prepping last call. And I don't want to install the wires yet, but I mainly want to get all end and mid posts set in the ground. I put in a chain link fence last year, but the posts were a LOT smaller and I premixed the concrete, too much work. Thanks a LOT guys. I'll have updated pics in my thread over the next month or 6!


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## flyfishun

I agree with grapeman also. My rows are about 70 to 80 feet and I have anchor braces on the ends. I used 3ft metal posts and drove them all the way in then did the standard wire twist from the ground to about 3/4 up my end post. For my trellis wire I also used a ratcheting device on the ends so I could adjust my wires in the future. I found them at the farm and ranch store. I too am in sand and rock so the anchors were a bit hard to do but really make a difference.


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## TimTheWiner

OK, just want to be 100% of how I should set me end posts which needs to get done within the next 2 weeks. I have posted a pic below of what I see as the 3 options all of which use earth anchors as well. Option 1 would seem the quickest and easiest. They are 60' rows with 2 mid posts (20' apart). The pic is concerning the beefy end posts. All of the mid posts will be done like Fig 1 with NO augers.


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## flyfishun

I used option one with a 6 in x 8ft post with the anchor. If I had to do it again I would do the same thing


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## UBB

GreginND said:


> There's a point where I see a mix of opinions - plant the vines first or put in your trellis posts first? I was thinking it would be better to first put in the posts (not the wires). This way you minimize the risk of the equipment running over your new vines.
> 
> So -- Put in posts -- plant the vines -- put in wires.
> 
> Thoughts?


This is my plan for my new vines this spring. I broke the ground and set the end posts last fall. More soil prep and line posts go in before the vines ship. Right or wrong that's the plan.


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## TimTheWiner

I think I like that plan the most as well. Trellis post/deer fence in, then plant vines, then install trellis wires. I DO more and more like Option 1. I just hope it will be strong enough. Btw, UBB, what kind of soil work do you have to do now? I did all my soil amendments and tilled in the fall. Is there anything I need to do prior to digging the plant holes/tilling? Should I shovel dig the vines holes or use the auger?


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## UBB

ShockwaveCT said:


> I think I like that plan the most as well. Trellis post/deer fence in, then plant vines, then install trellis wires. I DO more and more like Option 1. I just hope it will be strong enough. Btw, UBB, what kind of soil work do you have to do now? I did all my soil amendments and tilled in the fall. Is there anything I need to do prior to digging the plant holes/tilling? Should I shovel dig the vines holes or use the auger?


It was sod when I tilled it up in the fall. I'll till it up again and auger in the line post holes is all.


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## TimTheWiner

Ok great, just wanted to make sure I wasn't forgetting anything.


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## Abrnth3

I am just thinking if you have frost heave as we do here in Central Illinois, you may want to go a little deeper then 24". If you can get below the frost line your post most likely will not get pushed up from frost. I believe the frost line is close to 24" most years. We generally put our post in 30" just for added security. No crete just a good tamping of the soil as we back fill holes. Wants its settled a few years it's like concrete. Good luck.


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## TimTheWiner

I not sure about frost heave. I know I put in about 8 chain link fence posts 2' with 1 bag of concrete each, and they are quite sturdy after 3 years. I think a vertical post and hole will be more familiar to me. I just see so many people with angled end pots, by maybe they are larger rows. Can anyone possible guide me to more info on the kind of tools necessary for pulling/looping the wire and crimping or grip poles. I really hope I am not going to need to BUY some specialty tools that'll never get used again.

And all the cedar posts we're bought last year, and most close to 8' so not sure i could go down 30" especially if I ended up going at an angle.


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## ThePlantGuy978

I have often wondered and tried to use a hand held post hole digger to create a hole at a 45 deg. angle. I have never been successful.
Any hints??

Hans


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## Brew and Wine Supply

ThePlantGuy978 said:


> I have often wondered and tried to use a hand held post hole digger to create a hole at a 45 deg. angle. I have never been successful.
> Any hints??
> 
> Hans


 dig it a bit bigger and a little extra on one side where you want it to lean. I have set mine at about 30* with this method, more like #2 above. when you do it like that set the post in on the vine side and put a few hand fulls of dirt/rocks in then lean away from the vines and fill. If they start to straighten up, I'll bracing will be used.
I kept away from concrete because if at some time in the future I need to replace a cedar post I only need to remove the post and re dig, not bring in a back hoe to remove a bunch of concrete too.


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## HillPeople

Shockwave, attached is a picture showing the endpost system I used. They are 6-8" pressure treated yellow pine, 8' long, 2' in the ground. They are tensioned using 3/16" cable and turnbuckles, anchored with stoney earth anchors. The trellis wire is through-post, running through Gripples. It's easy and works very well. My rows are 120' long.


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## grapeman

I recommend you not run the wire through the posts, but use large fencing staples instead. If run through the post, it can be a problem if a post breaks off and needs replacing- how to get the wire out of the post. The staples just make it easier.


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## TimTheWiner

Thanks B&W for the idea on setting them at an angle. And that pic and details of the next setup look great as well. I may just try both methods and see which I prefer. I really hope I can find done tool rental as I really don't want to be spending a fee hundred more dollars on a wire puller, gripper tool or crimp tool, or a spinning jenny.


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## UBB

FWIW, here is what my end posts look like. Hard to tell but they are at an angle. Dug the holes using an old ice auger:: and I did use QuikCrete in the holes as well. In the ground since 09 and no problems thus far.


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## flyfishun

In just going to say. My vineyard is 8yrs old. My wires for my middle posts are through the the post. A 3/8 wood bit works great and I have not had any post problems. I am in western WA in a very wet area. I used 6in pressure treated posts and have had no problems. Through the post wires are much easier to manage from my point of view are the way to go. Do not concrete the end posts but use the tension posts on the end to stop the posts from leaning. Just my opinion.


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## grapeman

I knew somebody would say they have had the wires through the posts with no problems. I think most people have either done it or thought about it. The problem isn't with the hole making the post rot, it is how do you replace the post with the wire running through it. I did the same thing many years ago and have had to replace a couple posts- it isn't the easiest thing to do. If you have three wires you have three chunks of post to cut out and split away from the wire. With fencing staples, just pull the staple and replace the post. 

The nice thing about a vineyard and making wine is there are as many ways of doing things as there are wine makers and grape growers.

See below for a picture of square posts with wires running through them - what a pain to replace those posts as they rot off.


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## Brew and Wine Supply

grapeman said:


> - what a pain to replace those posts as they rot off.


 
Another reason not to concrete them in.


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## OilnH2O

Well, I did mine like B&W and similar to "Option 2" - the angles were more like 30* - and over time, the have crept upright. That's only 50-feet long, in rocky soil, with clay and cobbles and lots of tamping. (See "Missoula Vineyard" post #36 http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/missoula-vinyard-19860/index4.html) But, with the wire-droop due to the weight of cordons and hanging fruit, I've tightened the wires with the turnbuckles and slowly... s-l-o-w-l-y... over 4-5 years they - the posts - are now upright! 

I'm wondering about re-digging the holes back to where they were and then putting in some sort of earth anchor or bracing. So keep us... uh, 'posted!'


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## TimTheWiner

That last post makes me want to put them in about 30 deg just for that reason, so if they pull inwards they'll end up vertical. Just seems easier to pack rocks around a vertical post rather than angled. If I am not mistaken, for VSP won't I need 7 wires. 1 at the bottom them three pairs (1 on each side at 3 heights)?. Also if this is the case do I need a wire strainer for EVERY single wire? If so, even at $2.99 each that's $165 just in wire strainers.


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## TimTheWiner

And one more thing for OilnH20, did you have an earth anchor pulling them the opposite direction or any kind of tie down? Probably has something to do with them straightening back up?


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## saddlebronze

To avoid the need for wire tensioners, I use a wire stretcher from Tractor supply. A simple rig that tensions the runs and then wrap them around the end post and release. The tool is reusable.


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## TimTheWiner

saddlebronze said:


> To avoid the need for wire tensioners, I use a wire stretcher from Tractor supply. A simple rig that tensions the runs and then wrap them around the end post and release. The tool is reusable.



Any pic?


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## saddlebronze

Tractor supply item number 360031299 SpeeCo fence stretcher. Real good for trellis wires and end post anchor lines. Picture on the website.


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## TimTheWiner

Looks good, thanks for the part #. So this Sat all 45 holes are getting dug with the auger. All mid posts will be set like Option 1. I think I will try to put the end posts at about 30 deg angle like option 2 (and earth anchor as well) still not sure exactly how to pack the holes. Rocks in the bottom and dirt on top, or dirt only. My dad mentioned possibly digging (by shovel) an angle about 30 def for the post to lean against. Not sure if this would be better, but sure a lot of extra work. Will post pic example below.

On a side note, if I am doing mostly VSP, and have 7 wires per row (bottom cordon and 3 pairs up), does EACH wire need a wire strainer/tensioning device? That's a Huge cost I didn't plan on.


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## TimTheWiner




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## TimTheWiner

Also interested to know as far as the mid/line posts go, how wide to make the hole in comparison to the post, and if I should place it in the center and pack stones all the way around, or push to one side of the hole and then pack.


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## OilnH2O

ShockwaveCT said:


> And one more thing for OilnH20, did you have an earth anchor pulling them the opposite direction or any kind of tie down? Probably has something to do with them straightening back up?



Shock,
I guess I should have stated it outright - I was relating the experience of rows with angled end posts, but without any earth anchor or bracing. I chose to use what little room I have to get in a couple extra vines, rather than have even shorter rows. 

In your first post, you had a question of "do I need the end post angled away..." because of the short run of the row - 60 feet I think you said. My rows are at 42-44 feet long. My holes were hand-dug with a post hole digger - there is no room for equipment in my back-yard because it IS a back-yard, and it's on a slope (and I'd have had to tear down a section of fence at the side of the house to get equipment in anyway, and didn't want to do that). 

So I angled the posts, holes were 30 inches +/- deep, and then posts angled _across_ the vertical hole, as you have illustrated as _Option 2_ above (but more with a _chamferred top edge_ rather than the hole dug on an angle all the way to the bottom). Lots of tamping and placement of rocks and cobbles to prevent the post from moving to the vertical, BUT no earth anchor or bracing. Over time (6 years) the posts were pulled to the vertical. AND, I don't think the fact that the wire is tensioned using a turnbuckle or a tensioner tool makes any difference. It is the tensioned wire that is pulling the post from the angle to an upright position. Without tensioning the wire, you will get a lot of droop from the canes and fruit. And, I think if you started at the vertical, it will end up pulling the posts _inward._ 

Thus, my final sentence in my first post saying I am probably going to have to re-do the end posts (again by hand!) but will put in some sort of earth anchor or brace (because, otherwise, they will continue to be pulled together). But, having said that, the bracing will not be done the proper way simply because I don't have the room. 

I hope that makes more sense!


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## grapeman

Using an auger with stones there you will have a hard time lining them up perfectly. Therefore you should center the first post and fill around it tamping with a 2x4 on end. Then the next post line that up with the first post and the end post and place where it makes the straightest row. Keep going from there.


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## TimTheWiner

grapeman said:


> Using an auger with stones there you will have a hard time lining them up perfectly. Therefore you should center the first post and fill around it tamping with a 2x4 on end. Then the next post line that up with the first post and the end post and place where it makes the straightest row. Keep going from there.



Straight rows won't be an issue, there are no stones larger than the palm of a hand because all of the boulders were removed in the fall (each row dug with backhoe 2' deep and 3' wide, then back filled by hand. 250 hrs of work. 

To Oil, that's go info. I will however be using wire tensioners (strainers or grapples) on trellis wires as well as end post to earth anchor in the ground.


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## TimTheWiner

I had a friend do a little math for me (10 years since I've used trig), and if I went with option 2 but then measured out 1' 1.75" away from it and dug down to the bottom of the hole with a shovel on that same side, then I should end up with an approx 30° angle that I could then lay the post on. Does this seem like a good idea, or seem like too much extra work vs just "leaning" it to the side? If I did try to shovel out at an angle, at least there would be no air pocket under it or awkward space to fill, the cedar would lay flat on the angle, then just fill (end up looking kind of like Option 3). Starting this TOMORROW! And thanks for ALL your help, you guys are great and no negativity like automotive forums, etc.


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## HillPeople

Shockwave,
There is virtually no difference between vertical end posts or end posts set at 30 degrees. The key is an earth anchor that is impossible to pull out. We used Fenox stoney earth anchors available here:
http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/Stony-Ground-Anchors-Fenox-p10.htm
With angled end posts there is a slight advantage in the end post "digging in its heels" so to speak, but that is minimal in comparison to the resistance provided by properly installed and tensioned anchors. We set the end posts vertical and have turnbuckles on the anchor cable. Once trued to plumb they absolutely will will not move even a fraction of an inch once the trellis wires are tensioned. Nothing will move unless it breaks- it's just basic physics.
I have an idea that angled end posts are a carry over from French and Italian vineyards where the upland soils were loose, dry, sandy and stoney. There the angle may have aided a little more with less reliance on rock solid anchors.
One of the disadvantages of angled end posts is that they are usually 2' longer than the line posts due to the drop in height. I think it's a no brainer to use all 8' posts- 4-6" diameter for line posts and 6-8" for end posts. Just my 2 cents. I'm sure there would be disagreement.


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## TimTheWiner

I ended up going with these for earth anchors, mainly because the cost was attractive and just added it to the hundreds of dollars charge to my HD card (interest free thank god).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202719...toreId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202719050#.UV9rqFdWXKU

They are not quite as beefy as the ones I've seen in local vineyards, but I think/hope they should be sufficient. I DO really want to slightly angle my end posts, but I think the length of my posts may prevent it anyway. All my mid posts are cut to 8' 2" (so about 6' out of ground, or about 5' 10" top VSP wire height), but my end posts are just about 8' or a max of maybe 9', so think angling them may not even be an option or the vertical height once angled at 30° may not be high enough for the top wire. So I think vertical it may be, and I feel like I can get a vertical post a bit more secure with tamping rocks. 14 hours til kick off!


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## spaniel

For 12-vine rows I do not think you NEED to use concrete, obviously it will be more solid if you do. My original rows are 10 vines each. I used treated 4X4 angled endposts (would have used 6X6 for longer life but didn't have it at the time) with steel runner posts. For ground anchors, I bought $2 36"X3/8" re-rod at Lowes. Then, using a hole in the blade on my tractor, I bent a loop into the top for the wire to the post and a 90-degree bend toward the bottom with 6" bent out. Then I dig a hole ~3ft deep, and pour 2X80lb bags of concrete over the bent end of that re-bar...that ground anchor isn't going anywhere.

The auger-style ground anchors are difficult to use in our heavy soil, they just don't want to bite and they are very difficult to turn in.

I did concrete my endposts, thought I left room to move things if they ever need replacing. We can get really nasty winds here, I was concerned if I did not cement them. We got an 80+ mph wind here last year when the grapes were hanging heavy; the windward row bent three steel runner posts that I bent back today as I was pruning, but the near endpost held it from doing any more damage.

Today I put in my longest row...30 vines coming in soon. I used a similar setup, except I found some 4X6 endposts (really wish I could have found 6X6 but ran out of time). I will put a couple non-concreted 4X4 runner posts in addition to the steel ones to hold this longer run, with long staples on the wires.

For tighteners, I order Wirevises from Orchard Valley supply for <$2 apiece. Easy to install and use, each spring I just clamp a vise-grip onto the wire, put a foot on the endpost and tug hard, and I'm done.

RE the frost -- if you concrete the hold from bottom to the top, yes you are likely to get frost heaving. That's why you don't do it that way. I dig my holes ~3ft deep, but wider than an auger would, and pour a wider pad about a foot deep that ends about 2' below the surface. The frost won't get under that here. Been doing it that way for 25 years now and never had a post move.


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## Trieste

Great thread! I'm about to set posts as well, and am wondering if 2' is deep enough for the holes? I'm planning on a slight angle and angles for the end posts, and like many other here have 60' rows. Cheers!


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## TimTheWiner

I think 2' was sufficient, but if you have longer posts, I don't think it hurts going deeper. From what I understand, general rule of thumb is 1/3 of the post in the ground. For me, we dug out to 2' with the backhoe so it wasn't hard getting to 2', but you knew when you hit the "bottom". Rocks galore.


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## Trieste

Shockwave,where did you get your trellis supplies? Anyone good nearby?


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## TimTheWiner

Craigslist for the cedar (and it wasn't as "good" as I hoped). Tractor supply for wire and most tools and accessories.


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## Trieste

I think I just talked to the guy that sold you the posts. He said he may have a few more. Funny.


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## jswordy

Not building a trellis (yet) but I have built a lot of farm fence! A few comments FWIW:

-- If you set your posts 36" as the goal (if possible to drill that deep), they will be much more stable than if you go 24" and the trellis/fence will last longer.

-- I would use concrete on the end posts, whether you angle them or not. The concrete increases the diameter of the post and makes for better anchoring. I concrete in all corner and gate posts on my farm fence. I would not use it for line posts. One drawback: Concrete does make it more difficult to replace rotted posts later on.

-- The use of 1-1/2" staples on the wires will be more than sufficient to hold them. If you do not drive the staples in tight, you can still turnbuckle the wires for tautness or use a stretcher. Much easier to replace posts later.

-- If you do not have a stretcher but have a truck, heavier model garden tractor or ATV, attach the wire to the vehicle by looping it back on itself around the hitch and winding it around itself, and pull it taut. Staple tightly in place and cut.

-- On the end posts, wires should be looped around the post and wound around themselves, and staples also used. This is a much sturdier construction than relying on staples alone.

-- There is an alternate end post system that involves building an H of posts and the crisscrossing an X of wire on it, tightening that with two pieces of wood or conduit that are then left in place. It is typical of farm fence corners and would require no anchors.

I use an X but this illustrates the point...





-- Whatever you do, be aware of the amount of weight on these wires. Fully mature vines an be several hundred pounds each with fruit on them. Plan accordingly and upsize whenever possible.

Like I say, FWIW...


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## TimTheWiner

Thanks for the insightful reply. I wish I had seen it before finishing everything last month, but still have the wire to run. I did only manage to go t o24" deep on the end posts, mostly because the rocky soil made it difficult to dig at all (had to use a backhoe to dig out last year to 2' deep). I wanted to cement the end posts, but couldn't see swinging the extra $150-$200 at the time, so I beat rocks in around it. Some seem very secure, a few not so much. My idea is that although there is a lot of forcing pulling inwards and down on the end posts, I am hoping that running an opposing wire to the ground with 36" earth anchors with not allow them to pull in. We'll see I guess.


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## jswordy

ShockwaveCT said:


> Thanks for the insightful reply. I wish I had seen it before finishing everything last month, but still have the wire to run. I did only manage to go t o24" deep on the end posts, mostly because the rocky soil made it difficult to dig at all (had to use a backhoe to dig out last year to 2' deep). I wanted to cement the end posts, but couldn't see swinging the extra $150-$200 at the time, so I beat rocks in around it.



That'll work!



> Some seem very secure, a few not so much. My idea is that although there is a lot of forcing pulling inwards and down on the end posts, I am hoping that running an opposing wire to the ground with 36" earth anchors with not allow them to pull in. We'll see I guess.



That'll work, too!


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## HillPeople

As long as your earth anchors are secure, nothing's going anywhere.


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## bchilders

ShockwaveCT said:


> OK, just want to be 100% of how I should set me end posts which needs to get done within the next 2 weeks. I have posted a pic below of what I see as the 3 options all of which use earth anchors as well. Option 1 would seem the quickest and easiest. They are 60' rows with 2 mid posts (20' apart). The pic is concerning the beefy end posts. All of the mid posts will be done like Fig 1 with NO augers.



Either of these will be fine and for rows less than 100' option 2 and 3, IMHO, are an overkill. I did option 1 on 100' rows with no anchors but I do intend to go back and put inside angle brace posts. I don't like wires on the outside of the rows. I used 9"x 10' end posts 30" deep.


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