# PH vs TA



## JimmyT (Oct 3, 2014)

I've been reading on here trying to figure out the difference and nothing I've seen comes right out and says it. Am I correct in in concluding in a dumbed down version that TA (tartaric acid) is the total amount of acid and that ph is the strength of that acid?


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## seth8530 (Oct 3, 2014)

Here, give this link a read. I think it did a very good job of explaining things. 

http://blog.eckraus.com/blog/wine-m...nce-between-ph-and-titratable-acidity-in-wine


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## JohnT (Oct 3, 2014)

JimmyT said:


> I've been reading on here trying to figure out the difference and nothing I've seen comes right out and says it. Am I correct in in concluding in a dumbed down version that TA (tartaric acid) is the total amount of acid and that ph is the strength of that acid?


 

In short, yes. TA is total amount of acid (weight) and PH is the accumulated strength of the acid present.


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## ibglowin (Oct 3, 2014)

TA doesn't stand for Tartaric Acid. Its Titratable Acidity and measures all acids present in a must including Malic.



JimmyT said:


> I've been reading on here trying to figure out the difference and nothing I've seen comes right out and says it. Am I correct in in concluding in a dumbed down version that TA (tartaric acid) is the total amount of acid and that ph is the strength of that acid?


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## Turock (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm going to take a swing at this and may or may not confuse you further!! Like you, I never understood the validity of TA readings. Everything you read about it always places TA as a more valuable reading than PH--even the E C Kraus article. But I disagree. On another site, I was talking about this very thing with a group of commercial winemakers in Calif. They said some very intersting things about the subject. I made the comment that I think TA measurement is a hold-over from the days before PH meters. TA gave you a direction of where the acid was on the grape or fruit, and where that direction ended up when making adjustments. They pretty much agreed with that comment. They said that they don't even measure TA anymore, which I found quite interesting. What they do is work with PH AND the taste. When they're adjusting high PH must, they bench test as they drop the PH and when the flavor is where they want it, they stop adjusting.

Most of the time, you can't really state exactly WHERE the PH should be for a given grape, and that is why tasting is so important. But we have found thru 25 years of fermenting the same grapes and fruits over and over again, that we have a target PH in mind. BUT--we STILL taste as we are adjusting. And here's why:

TA and PH have no real direct relationship to one another. TA is the acid available to react with sodium hydroxide--unhooking all accessible hydrogen ions. Since the proportions of free and bound hydrogens varies greatly according to varietal, ripeness, growing conditions, etc., so does the relationship between PH and TA. So the best you can say is that higher TA is associated with lower PH and vice versa.

Now knowing PH is very important because it has a powerful effect on the efficiency of SO2. It prevents oxidation and bacterial infection. You need to know the PH in order to know how much free SO2 is needed for preservation. Need to know what the PH is before going into MLF.

To me, PH readings trump TA. I find TA a useless number because ther's nothing you can do with it because of the variables involved in variety, ripeness of the fruit, etc. PH tells you more and is a very usefull number to know.


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## JohnT (Oct 3, 2014)

Very nice summary Turock!


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## berrycrush (Oct 3, 2014)

The way I understand it: It is easier to measure PH than TA. But TA is more truthful in the sense that it does not depend on other factors such as sugar, alcohol and ion concentration or temperature.


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## Turock (Oct 3, 2014)

But what does the measurement TELL you? Can you use it in any logical fashion? TA varies too much to put much value on as to what you should do with the info.

Ph is PH whether there's alcohol or sugar or not. PH readings are not affected by it.


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## GreginND (Oct 3, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> TA doesn't stand for Tartaric Acid. Its Titratable Acidity and measures all acids present in a must including Malic.



Yes, you are measuring all the acids present, but the value is expressed in units of grams of tartaric acid per liter (or percent). Thus, the TA value makes an assumption that all is tartaric even if it's not. It's not that significant but it is how the units are expressed.


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## BernardSmith (Oct 3, 2014)

Turock said:


> But what does the measurement TELL you? Can you use it in any logical fashion? TA varies too much to put much value on as to what you should do with the info.
> 
> Ph is PH whether there's alcohol or sugar or not. PH readings are not affected by it.



I strongly agree with Turock. TA is an indication of flavor but your mouth is better indicator. And TA I think is a hold over from wine makers use of grapes where the dominant acid is tartaric and not say malic or citric or some other acid - lactic, for example. In many ways they are not *that* different but they do not taste at all similar. pH on the other hand will give you an indication of the stability of the wine and how much SO2 it will need. It will also give you an idea of how much stress (or not) you may be subjecting the yeast to in a way that TA has nothing to say about that. 
I guess what I am saying is that wine making is both an art and a science but you cannot dismiss the art (taste) and imagine that you can make a good wine simply by trying to get the numbers "right".


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## berrycrush (Oct 4, 2014)

Turock said:


> But what does the measurement TELL you? Can you use it in any logical fashion? TA varies too much to put much value on as to what you should do with the info.
> 
> Ph is PH whether there's alcohol or sugar or not. PH readings are not affected by it.



It tells you the amount of substance, i.e. the acid, just that. Try an experiment: 
take a sample and measure both PH and TA, then dilute the sample by a factor of 2 and measure again. Which measurement makes sense?


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2014)

It tells you how much Acid (weight) you have in your must pure and simple just like pH gives you a number.

The values for whites and reds are well known and documented. TA responds proportionally to any acid addition or adjustment. pH does NOT. 



Turock said:


> But what does the measurement TELL you? Can you use it in any logical fashion? TA varies too much to put much value on as to what you should do with the info.
> 
> Ph is PH whether there's alcohol or sugar or not. PH readings are not affected by it.


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## Turock (Oct 5, 2014)

As long as a certain PH doesn't cause a problem with SO2 and it tastes good, who cares about the TA? If we're specifically talking about numbers, TA alone won't help you. And I'm sure none of you are saying that. If you want your wine to fall within a certain few points of TA, that's fine. But that is after you make sure the PH is at a good place AND it still tastes good.


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## ibglowin (Oct 5, 2014)

Thats where your argument falls apart. Who cares if your wine has a perfect pH of 3.5 but to get there you added so much Tartaric that your wine is now tart and taste like shat. You can not stick you head in the sand regarding TA and just go by pH you need to balance and work with both numbers.


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## Turock (Oct 5, 2014)

No one is saying "a perfect PH"--rather a PH that won't be so high as to present SO2 problems. Once it tastes good to you, you KNOW that the TA is correct without even testing the number.


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## ibglowin (Oct 5, 2014)

What SO2 problems. You add acid until you get your pH AND TA numbers in the best possible alignment then you sulfite to the level required for your pH once the wine is finished and stable.

There are many commercial wineries especially in WA State turning out award wining wines that are garnering 93, 94, 95 point ratings in Wine Spectator that have 20 year drinking windows associated with them and selling for anywhere from $40 - $80…... and they have pH's in the 3.7 and even 3.8 range. Doesn't sound like they care too much about their pH being a perfect 3.5 at all.


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## BernardSmith (Oct 5, 2014)

I know that Turock can speak for himself but I don't think that he is saying that any specific pH is perfect or even good. I think he is simply saying that when you know your pH then you know how much free SO2 your wine needs for stability. Whether the pH is 3.2 or 3.9 or 4.0 it matters not a whit. What matters is that you know what it is if your aim is to add enough SO2. As for TA what ever the number is is less relevant than whether the wine gives you pleasure when you drink it and that is a matter less of the TA in and of itself than how the TA is balanced with the sweetness and the alcohol content.


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## Turock (Oct 7, 2014)

By a problem with SO2, what I mean is that you don't want the PH so high that it takes a tremendous amount of SO2 for preservation.

With SOME grapes, you can start out with a high PH. And you think to yourself that you should get the PH down to 3.5 or below. But the problem with that is you'll end up with nothing more than a good case of battery acid!!! So the way to approach it is to begin bench testing, while dropping the acid. And you get it to a point where it tastes REALLY good--and the reason for that is because you are adjusting the TA but you're not doing it by some TA number--so then you test the PH. And you find out that the PH is only 3.7!!! Well, you better leave it there or else you'll lose the flavor and the wine will be too acidic if you take the PH any lower. So you adjusted it not by a PH number--not by a TA number. If we're strictly talking numbers--TA tells you nothing. Your pallete is a more accurate indication of where the TA should be than some number. And then you should take a PH reading so you know how much free SO2 the wine needs, and so that you know the PH isn't too low for something like an MLF. 

So you are correct in saying there is no perfect PH--nor is there a perfect TA. I agree entirely with you. You've got to go by how it tastes. Because adjustment of taste IS adjustment of TA.


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## ibglowin (Oct 7, 2014)

OK,

I know you (Turock) have been making wine for 20+ years and your palette is probably better than any pH meter but remember the majority of the folks on this board do no have your experience so, until you have that experienced palette most winemakers really need to both taste and know their numbers (pH and TA) and keep track of them for future reference.


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## Turock (Oct 7, 2014)

Well, yes---I cannot argue with that. I don't mind if someone takes TA readings and uses it as a guide as they get their feet on the ground. But they should also know that because TA varies due to variety, ripeness, growing conditions,etc. that the number is not dependable. They should ALWAYS be tasting and stop adjustments when THEY think it tastes good to them. I think PH is a very important number--as I said, PH trumps TA and by that I meant that IT is the number to know. So many new winemakers ask for help with tartness and yet, they are not taking a PH reading! And if they want to take TA readings, I'm OK with that but I hate it when people report a TA reading but NOT a PH. It leaves you in the dark.


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## grapeman (Oct 7, 2014)

I strongly agree that pH is very important for winemaking. Using vinifera grapes TA is probably not that important but I can tell you that using cold hardy varieties of grapes requires at least a good reading of TA. While in general a rising pH results in a loweing TA, it is not always a lineal path. Certain varieties like Frontenac, LaCrescent and Marquette can be absolutely screaming high in TA even as pH comes into a desireable range. We still take readings of TA on these varieties to make sure we are in an acceptable range. Taste is important, but when TA is just too high your tongue can't detect the difference between say 14 or 16 grams/Liter. Both are higher than you really want, but 14 may be manageable while 16 is just too high most of the time. This year we are finding that in much of the Northeast we did not get a good ripening year. At my commercial vineyard for example we are picking 3 weeks later this year and sugars are close to normal, but pH is lower and TA is higher. It is a good year to sharpen our skills for lowering acitity, whether measured with pH or TA.


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2014)

OK, 

So not I have a question.. 

Does anybody use a formula to adjust acid via PH readings only? PH is not a linear scale. In other words, my understanding is that the amout of acid needed to, say adjust from a PH of 3.7 to a level of 3.8 is not the same as the amount of acid needed to adjust from 3.7 to, say, 3.6. 

What I have been doing is using the TA readings for adjustment, then retesti8ng the PH. I repeat this (in a bench test) until taste and PH are acceptable. 

Is there such a formula that will consider only current PH, the desired PH, and spit out the amount of acid (Tartaric only) needed for the adjustment?


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## seth8530 (Oct 8, 2014)

Honestly,I am pretty sure you can math it out if you want. However, another way to do it that is also easy would be to take a sample and add acid/carbonate to it until you reached the desired PH and track the mass of acid/carbonate used and the volume of the sample prior to adding the acid/carbonate to setup a proportion and figure out how much you wold need to use on the large scale.


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## ibglowin (Oct 8, 2014)

There is no way to accurately do that as pH doesn't react in any linear or straight forward fashion all the time due to the variables in the must that cause buffering (like Potassium being released once crushed). TA is a different animal as it (as has been stated) is just a "weight" reading of available acid in g/L


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2014)

Glowing, 

That was exactly my understanding. 


Seth, 

That is pretty much how I do it now. Just wondered if anyone has come up with a mathematical/functional recommendation based on PH. Must say that I am disappointed, of all the members, I figured that YOU would be the one to have one!


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## ibglowin (Oct 8, 2014)

He would need a Ph.D in Chaos Theory……..


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## seth8530 (Oct 8, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> He would need a Ph.D in Chaos Theory……..



Yup, Glowin described the crux of the issue precisily. Calculating how much acid you need to add to CaCo3 solution of a certain PH to reach a certain PH is one thing.. Doing the same thing with something as uncertain and complex as wine is another issue.


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## grapeman (Oct 8, 2014)

I dream of the day when I have the need to lower the pH of some must or wine................. sigh.


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## ibglowin (Oct 8, 2014)

We need this guy.......


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> We need this guy.......



I am NOT a winemaker, my mother had me tested.....


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## Scooter68 (Aug 1, 2016)

First - I know this is an old/dead thread but I think from time-to-time it's a good idea to revive a thread that has useful and sometimes controversial (?) information/comments.

I'm still rather new to wine making having only started in July of 20-15 with a blueberry wine. Since then I've made Blackberry, Black Raspberry, Black Currant, Peach, Strawberry, Apple and Apricot wines. All small batches of 1-3 gallons. 
So far I've only had a couple of failures where the end wine after 4-6 months was one lacking any decent taste and had very little detectable alcohol, the other ended up developing a very off taste that I could not remedy.

BUT my reason for wanting to revived this thread is that throughout the past year I have tried repeatedly to get a reasonable knowledge of the Acid question as regards to testing, including both TA and pH testing.
TA testing, while regarded by so many at the more important of the seems to be something that a person with a good sense of taste can accomplish just as accurately since TA testing does not tell one if the wine has sufficient acids to keep well. In this thread, I have agree with posts by Turoc, a pH test has greater value since one's tongue can most often tell us if the right acids are present. (Granted training to recognized acid tastes is a good idea)
pH testing on the other hand tells us if the wine has enough acid to keep well. It may not be able to tell us which acids are present but it does tell us if the acids present will permit us to store the wine without risk of spoiling.

One final point - I keep seeing comments hear that TA testing determines the amount of Tartaric Acid despite the fact that the more sources I keep reading state that's it's Total Acidity only and cannot be assumed to mean that's how much Tartaric acid is there. Interesting since proponents of both views state their point most emphatically. 

So I'll end with this - IS there a chemist in the house? Can someone tell us precisely what a TA test actually measures and is it safe or wise to ASSUME that the result of a TA test really is reading how much Tartaric acid is present.
My reading from various sources keeps suggesting that relying on a TA test without a taste test is a fools game and likewise relying on a pH test without a taste test is just as foolish. I don't mind doing both other than the time an effort involved IF the information from each is really that valuable.


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## TonyR (Aug 2, 2016)

Everyones tastes (tongue) are different. TA stands for TOTAL ACID. Buy a good Ph meter and test your Ph and for a few dollars buy a bottle of regent ( mixed sodium hydroxide) and accurately test your Ta


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## cmason1957 (Aug 2, 2016)

It takes almost no time to do a pH test. Once you have done that, it takes maybe a minute to do a titratable acid test. (add until you read a ph of 8.2) there is value in both numbers. But they aren't hard and fast values, generally just ranges and taste does matter.


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## Masbustelo (Aug 2, 2016)

http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/pdf/a...ship between total acidity, TA, and pH .pdfpH, Total Acidity, and Titratable Acid (TA) defined
(TA) is a measure of the amount of acid present in a solution. It is expressed as
grams/liter (g/L) and is obtained by multiplying to percent TA by 10. So, a TA of 0.60% is expressed as
6g/L.
pH is defined as the measure of the strength of acid in a solution. On a pH scale, 7 is considered
neutral. The lower the number on the pH scale, the more acidic. Conversely, the higher the reading on
the pH scale, the more alkaline. pH is a logarithmic scale. So, for each increment there is a factor of 10.
So, a reading of 5 is 10 times more acid than a reading of 6.
Total Acidity (TA) is a measure of the complete acid content in a wine. While it is more accurate, this
measure is not easy to ascertain. So, Total Acidity is often measured using the next best thing, which is
the measure of titratable acid. Hence, the terms, while used interchangeably, mean different things, but
in practice are based upon the results of acid titration.
** Note – while TA and pH are related in that they are associated to acidity, amount of acid and strength
of acid are very different. For example, two solutions with the same g/L of acid may have very different
pH readings if one solution’s acid is weaker than the other’s


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## Masbustelo (Aug 2, 2016)

It appears that part of the confusion comes from the parent use of TA as an abreviation within the wine making community for both Titrateable acid, and total acid. Very few home wine makers would have access to the laboratory equipment necessary to do the tests required to do total acid testing. The testing commonly done with a pH meter is a titrate test that does not discern total acids present, but does ascertain the acids present to be titrated.


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## GreginND (Aug 2, 2016)

Chemist in the house:

The titration to determine TA measures all acids in the wine. It is not only measuring the tartaric acid.

That being said, Turock's original very well articulated comment is spot on. In many cases I don't even bother to measure TA anymore. It's about taste. I use pH religiously to make sure I have proper control of SO2.


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## Tnuscan (Aug 2, 2016)

Thanks @Scooter68 for opening this thread I had missed it.


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## Julie (Aug 2, 2016)

I agree with Greg, I concentrate on the PH and taste test where acid is concern.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 2, 2016)

To ALL - Thanks. Yes I agree completely with Truock's comment. 

One of the big reason's I posted and tried to revive this is that I purchased some Sodium Hydroxide to use with my pH meter to get accurate readings. In part because after reading about the color change issue and thinking about my Blackberry, Blueberry, Black Currant, and Black Raspberry wines and the standard TA test methods - good luck reading that. Anyway then I went looking for the proper quantities of must to start with and calculations methods once the meter reads 8.2 What I found was videos and postings/ articles etc that varied dramatically: 
- Dilute the must with a neutralized distilled water, 
- Dilute with distilled water, 
- Use as 5 ml sample straight, 
- Use a 10 ml sample (diluted, staight etc), 
- Use 15 ml straight, no, dilute it.
And on and on. Just a little confusing 

SO after a little more reading I came to the following:
1) Use 15 ml of undiluted must (This is where the guidance varies so much)
2) Add Sodium Hydroxide (.2 Normal solution) until the meter reads 8.2 stirring smoothly as you go and Remembering that the process goes slow until about 7.00 and then speeds up quickly.
3) Once completed find the ml of Sodium Hydroxide added - for instance 6.5 ml of .2 Normal would equal a TA of .65 

*Now please stop me if that is wrong before I run off and run this test and drive myself up the wall.... again. * 

By the way - In the end I agree - who cares what the TA numbers say if it tastes like bilge water or gags you, curls the tongue etc. Our tastes vary and the TA just gives us an idea of where you are compared to average wine numbers. At least that's my take. 

And for one last bit of discussion during the search I even had sources that came right out and said that a TA test gives you the amount of Tartaric Acid in your must (Yeah, One was from Yakima Community College) And of course in this very thread that comment is also made. Anyone want to kick that ball around a little? 

*UPDATE:* Ok tested one of my 4 gallon carboys of peach wine fermented now for 9 days. ALL testing done by taking the clearest liquid off the top.
SG is at .991 (Declared that finished and added a campden tablet after testing and after racking.
Recalibrated my pH meter - found it was dead on both at the 4.01 and 7.01 buffer checks
pH measured at 3.63 
TA tested with 15 ml sample and added Sodium Hydroxide until 8.20 reached. 
needed 8ml to reach that point. By the numbers I think are correct this is a TA of .80 
Does this make sense to anyone? TA seems high compared to pH BUT the must is pretty sharp tasting. This is one gallon of a 4 gallon batch. To that batch I added 2.5 tsp of Acid Blend after initial testing showed both mildness (not at all tart) in the unfermented must and a pH of 3.59 prior to fermentation.



(Oh yeah by the way, I am retired that's why I have so much time to do the reading, research and write the _LONG _postings. Sorry)


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## Johny99 (Aug 3, 2016)

Many good thoughts. I too have read that TA is essentially measuring tartaric, but my weak brain also seems to remember that statement was made in the context that tartaric is the predominate acid. 

Wine Science says " Acidity in wine is customarily divided into two categories –volatile and fixed. Volatile acidity refers to acids that can be readily removed by steam distillation, whereas fixed acidity refers to those that are poorly volatile. Total acidity is the combination of both categories. Depending on the country, total acidity may be expressed in terms of tartaric, malic, citric, lactic, sulfuric, or acetic acid equivalents".

Some chemistry text explains what it is really measuring. I'd dig to find the reference but I have a day job, it is dark out, my glass of wine is empty and it is my bed time.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 3, 2016)

_"Some chemistry text explains what it is really measuring. I'd dig to find the reference but I have a day job, it is dark out, my glass of wine is empty and it is my bed time."_

Well said - The topic is quite deep and between chemists and Vintners they can really tie a mind into knots.


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## morettisf (Aug 3, 2016)

Go with PH as your indicator for stability and adjust your Free SO2 accordingly. Sometimes wines can have a nice high TA number but the PH is off and high as well. Here's a great PDF that has a chart on how to adjust your SO2 doses for the PH level you read. See p.2 Vintner's Vault PDF


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## Tnuscan (Aug 3, 2016)

Yes... I agree this has almost driven me nuts, and I have about driven ibglowin nuts.

But hey in't that what ibglowins are for?


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## ibglowin (Aug 3, 2016)

Nah, trust me you are nowhere near the top!


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## Johnd (Aug 3, 2016)

C'mon folks, you can make wine by monitoring only pH, but we all know that good winemakers pay attention to both. Don't talk yourself into taking the easy route, work your pH and TA together, do the best you can. Some wines will trap you with a low pH and TA, but that's a grape problem and a chance to grow and learn. Tackle it. Do the chemistry. Have fun solving the problems. Get fresh chemicals now, judgement day is at hand!


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## Scooter68 (Aug 4, 2016)

Yeah, I may check TA but honestly pH and a healthy tongue are the best tools. And in practical terms - As long at my pH meter is accurate to within .05 - good enough. We are shooting at moving target with wine. I'm not making any wine that will be destroyed or harmed if my meter is a little off - I'm more concerned about what it tastes like when I pop that cork - so you get it 'in range of your target' and go for it. Until someone has an inexpensive test that will tell me which acids are there and how much of each...


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## ibglowin (Aug 4, 2016)

See my post #14 on this tired old thread. Ignore TA at great risk. You must manage both. It takes years and years to calibrate a mouth. It takes 10 seconds to calibrate a pH meter.


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## Tnuscan (Aug 4, 2016)

I agree that knowing the pH is all that is needed to make a nice wine, how much SO2, where you need to be for MLF, how long you can cellar your wine etc. but the TA will help you DIAL it all in, gives you a better picture on how and why. 

TA will help inform you which route you can take to bring the wine into balance. Every wine I drink that is off a little is usually within a decent pH range but the TA is way up or down.

You can do it by taste. I know someone that owns a successful winery, and has won many medals, and he just goes by pH and taste. And they are all balanced wines.

Every wine that I love to drink is always "IN BALANCE".

This is what I gather from my studies, now lets see if I can make a nice wine this fall. lol


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## Scooter68 (Aug 4, 2016)

OK let me ask this again - In doing a TA test with a pH meter I'm using a .2 normal Sodium Hydroxide reagent. What sample size do I use? 10ml or 15ml (Undiluted -clear must) I used a 15ml and my TA was pretty high(8ml) = .8 Obviously this would be the case if the proper sample size is 10ml. 5ml isn't big enough to get my meter into 10 or 15 will work.


I ask because when I tried to check the precise procedures my searches return all kinds of directions from 5ml straight must to 15ml diluted with 'Xml' of distilled water or even 'neutralized distilled water' I have issue with doing the TA but part of the issue is that directions seem a bit squirrely. Guess I could go look at a kit but again there seem to be different approaches.

Thanks - Just trying to use TA to check the calibration of my tongue


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## ibglowin (Aug 4, 2016)

If you purchase a TA kit follow the directions. If you just cobbled together regents and so forth use the universal TA formula:

*TA as tartaric acid (g/100 ml) = (V) (N) (75) (100) / (1000) (v)*


V = ml of sodium hydroxide solution used for titration 
N = Normality of sodium hydroxide solution 
v = sample volume (ml)


If you want the most accurate TA reading you start with distilled water that you have added NaOH to until the pH is 8.2. I have done enough TA's both ways and the difference is only a drop or two of NaOH which is why you can use regular distilled water if you want.


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## Tnuscan (Aug 4, 2016)

Scooter68 said:


> OK let me ask this again - In doing a TA test with a pH meter I'm using a .2 normal Sodium Hydroxide reagent. What sample size do I use? 10ml or 15ml (Undiluted -clear must) I used a 15ml and my TA was pretty high(8ml) = .8 Obviously this would be the case if the proper sample size is 10ml. 5ml isn't big enough to get my meter into 10 or 15 will work.
> 
> 
> I ask because when I tried to check the precise procedures my searches return all kinds of directions from 5ml straight must to 15ml diluted with 'Xml' of distilled water or even 'neutralized distilled water' I have issue with doing the TA but part of the issue is that directions seem a bit squirrely.  Guess I could go look at a kit but again there seem to be different approaches.
> ...



Ok, if your using 0.2 then pull 15 cc or ml of your must or wine. Rinse syringe with distilled water, pull 10 cc or ml of the 0.2 normal.

Add 0.2 normal until color change or pH of 8.2

Each cc or ml will be your percentage -- 3 cc/ml =30%, 7 cc/ml = 70%

Using 0.2 normal you need to keep the must/wine sample at 15 cc/ml every time.


EDIT: this works with 0.2 normal *(ONLY)*


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## Scooter68 (Aug 4, 2016)

Thanks - Nice thing about using the pH meter - color of the wine does not matter.

But one question on that - Distilled water has it's own pH unless you adjust it to 8.2 won't that skew the test? (That was the guidance on at least one other document I found) Again using a pH meter the color of the wine doesn't matter, I'm watching meter numbers not the color and I'm not using the Phenolphthalein Color Solution either)

Personally I think using the pH meter for TA testing is well worth then investment - More and more I hear people leaning of pH as the required test to be sure your wine will keep. So if one is going to invest in a pH meter just get the Sodium Hydroxide and have the results of both tests quickly. 

Note to all: - I got some oral syringes (10ml) free at Walmart Pharmacy today They just gave me 4 of them along with 4 Five ml syringes as well.


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## Tnuscan (Aug 4, 2016)

Yes it will change it, I deleted that info in my last post. Every time something is added to the sample , it has an effect. I just went and checked and the addition of 20ml of the distilled water changed the 10ml of wine from 3.4 to 3.3, that along with a couple extra drops of NaOH could make unwanted mistakes.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 4, 2016)

Thanks - You are not the only one to do that. Same directions are on several sites including the directions on one vendors site for using their TA test kit.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 24, 2017)

I purchased several different small box kits for testing acids in wine. Each were from different suppliers, each had different formulas to reach the end point. I remember having one that was giving me results that were odd. I called the company the man I was speaking with asks me to describe the small bottle. When I did he said that it had to be older than 5 years because they had replaced the label. lol

I wanted to share this because, if your going to test make sure your regents are fresh. I've stopped buying the small kits and now purchase from larger suppliers. Some of this stuff sits on the shelves too long.


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