# Anyone have experience making sacramental wine?



## Dhaynes (Mar 22, 2015)

The resident sacramental wine maker at my son's Church retired a few years ago. So they have started having to buy port for their services. They use about 25-30 gallons a year. They have asked if we would help them start to make their own wine again and train a few of their members to do it. We're honored but a little out of our comfort zone. Other than some skeeter pee and dragon blood my wife and I have only made kits. We've made two chocolate raspberry port kits but I don't think that is what they have in mind  

I don't recall seeing a straight port kit. There is usually a fruit and/or a chocolate combined with it. Anyone know of a straight port kit? I remember reading about people making port from other red wine kits but I don't recall the details. I'm thinking kits are still the way to go because if you have a group of part time inexperience wine makers you want to keep it as fool proof as possible. Having all the chemistry taken care of by experts would certainly make it easier and reduce the chances of making some bad wine.

I was thinking we might need some bigger fermenting and aging vessels but really 30 gallons is just 5 six gallon kits. Then there is the question of how to bottle it? 1.5 L bottles, gallon jugs? Anybody have any experience with this or any ideas? Any help would be appreciated. 


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 22, 2015)

I would be more than happy to talk to you and work with you.
Please PM me with a phone # and when to call and I would be honored to to help out your church for you.

.


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## reefman (Mar 23, 2015)

vacuumpumpman,
That would be a great thread to start, as I might be in the same situation as Dhaynes and I'm sure there are others. The person who makes our wine at church is nearing retirement so we will be in the same situation.
Can you list some basics?


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## JohnT (Mar 23, 2015)

Rather than all of those carboys, I would go with making 2 54-liter demijohns and also make it from fresh grapes. 

ok, so here is what I would do...

Ferment 9 36-pound lugs on their skins to a brix of 11% or 12% sugar* remaining. Punch down 2 times a day. 

Once that brix level is achieved, add 6 gallons of 80 proof brandy and allow to sit on skins for a day. 

Press and rack into secondary. Add additional back sweetener if needed. After second racking put on med toast oak cubes for 3 weeks. 

This should yield 108 liters of port. 

* use the Pearson's square to refine this. I am assuming that you have a, initial brix of 24%, but your initial brix will vary. 


As far a bottling, I would measure how much is used each week and try to use bottles of that size. You goal should be to have no left overs.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 23, 2015)

I have been making port style wine for approx 10 years or so, but I am no expert on it. 
It has always been a concern how to get the alcohol up there without dilution.
My ports are made from ever clear (195 proof ) and they are added during fermentation and it stops the fermentation because of the high alcohol content , which leaves you with a heavy bodied port and typically little sweet to off set the ABV. I will typically add the alcohol once there is approx 4% residual sugar left - but that is to the eyes of the winemakers taste. 

I use everclear, typically I would add distillers charcoal with the everclear for a week prior to using it. That would usually take out most of the odors that come from it (fussils oils ) Back in the day (from what I read) Port was fortified with non cut brandy, which means distilled wine and not diluted with water,so the abv was similar to everclear

no need to back sweeten or adding sorbate - it can be an early drinking wine as well if done properly.

I also will add oak sticks in the everclear for approx 2 weeks - if not longer prior to adding to my port - it adds a little extra flavoring - similar to brandy

I hope this helps ?????

I personally will not use demi jons as the glass is to thin for me and it I would like to know how much wine do you go thru at 1 setting ?


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## the_rayway (Mar 23, 2015)

Interesting. Generally the sacramental wine we use is concord, and at a usual wine alcohol level. There is a store in town that sells it by the gallon. However, the person at our church who used to supplement has passed on, so a call went out to the general population for any red wine which could be donated. We have used nearly every grape available it seems...

Do you find that most of the churches you all go to use port-strength wine? What denomination are they? Mine is Lutheran.


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## richmke (Mar 23, 2015)

In doing some quick research:

1) Grapes only
2) Max 18% ABV
3) Brandy ok (made from grapes). Everclear is not (made from grain).
4) Sugar seems to be ok.
5) K-meta and K-sorbate is ok

This is a decent summary (mentions 14% abv max, but I've seen 18% in other places):
http://www.davenportdiocese.org/lit/liturgylibrary/Policies/litWinesEucharist-updated112711.pdf

Dilution of the wine is a no-no. However, reconstituting the grape juice is not discussed (kits are a recent phenomena).

So, I would probably skip the port kits, but buy a high end kit.
But, a high end kit has a long aging requirement.
So, maybe a mid-range kit that you can drink in 9 months.

Bottle in whatever quantity is convenient for the Church. If you go through gallons each Sunday, then the larger bottles may be preferred.

If I were doing it, I would:
Get a high end Zinfandel kit.
Boost SG to 1.12 (abv of 16% if all sugar converted).
Use RC-212 (2 packets), which gives up at 14% ABV, which would leave a sweetness of 1.014 SG.

To be on the really safe side, use frozen grapes so you don't have to reconstitute with water.

You don't need a really high quality wine. People are not drinking an entire glass.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 23, 2015)

Rich 
why not then purchase juice buckets then ?
you can not pass up the price

alot cheaper and easier to work with - considering you take so little of it and you always can add a bit of sugar if needed.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 23, 2015)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I use everclear, typically I would add distillers charcoal with the everclear for a week prior to using it. That would usually take out most of the odors that come from it (fussils oils ) Back in the day (from what I read) Port was fortified with non cut brandy, which means distilled wine and not diluted with water,so the abv was similar to everclear




..Or you can run it through a Brita filter twice. This also helps cheap Vodka



the_rayway said:


> Interesting. Generally the sacramental wine we use is concord, and at a usual wine alcohol level. There is a store in town that sells it by the gallon. However, the person at our church who used to supplement has passed on, so a call went out to the general population for any red wine which could be donated. We have used nearly every grape available it seems...
> 
> Do you find that most of the churches you all go to use port-strength wine? What denomination are they? Mine is Lutheran.



I agree with Ray. I am surprised they would use anything but a semi sweet wine. Are they really using a fortified port in church? I remember churches even using Pink Catawba. Concord seems to be the norm now.


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## seth8530 (Mar 23, 2015)

Or perhaps the frozen must pathway would be a good compromise between kit and juice..... If you can make a kit, the only thing that separates you from working with frozen must is a simple press.

The whole debate of everklear vs brandy is an interesting one. Ideally, you would use high proof grappa, which would give little dilution of grape character since it is distilled from grapes, and the abv is high enough to require relatively small additions. Unfortunately, most grappa I have seen in the US are novelty items with very high price tags.

So,I don't know how many of you guys regularly make mixed drinks with brandy, but the quality seriously counts. Ie, So, I would think long and hard before reaching for the bottom of the shelf brandy to fortify with. To be honest, I think you might be better off with high proof eveklear than a bottom shelf brandy when you start thinking about the quality of the end product for this very reason.


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## richmke (Mar 23, 2015)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Rich
> why not then purchase juice buckets then ?



Fresh juice is good too, if it is available when you want to ferment. Frozen is available anytime.


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## JohnT (Mar 24, 2015)

seth8530 said:


> Or perhaps the frozen must pathway would be a good compromise between kit and juice..... If you can make a kit, the only thing that separates you from working with frozen must is a simple press.
> 
> The whole debate of everklear vs brandy is an interesting one. Ideally, you would use high proof grappa, which would give little dilution of grape character since it is distilled from grapes, and the abv is high enough to require relatively small additions. Unfortunately, most grappa I have seen in the US are novelty items with very high price tags.
> 
> So,I don't know how many of you guys regularly make mixed drinks with brandy, but the quality seriously counts. Ie, So, I would think long and hard before reaching for the bottom of the shelf brandy to fortify with. To be honest, I think you might be better off with high proof eveklear than a bottom shelf brandy when you start thinking about the quality of the end product for this very reason.


 

Seth, 

I make with brandy. The additional flavor is really worth it (smokey, oaky goodness). All everclear does is bring a grain tasting burn. 

Brandy is far more expensive (Even though I use EJ (gallo) at about $50 per gallon). I really do not drink a whole lot of it (a carboy of it will keep myself and my two brothers well stocked for a year or two) so it does not cost me too much. 

I ask that you do not take my word for it. I assume that you have not made port with brandy, but I urge you to give it a try. Split a batch with 1/2 brandy and 1/2 everclear. I am almost certain that you will prefer the one with brandy.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2015)

john 
I understand where you are going with the brandy and all -
but if you clean up the everclear with carbon and add alot of oak to it.
I will turn it very brown in color - similar to brandy - while still keeping the high ABV.

So I ask you John - have you ever tried this exact procedure ?

I have been making ports now for 12 years now - every year at least 6 gallons if not more this way, they need to sit for
at least 1 year to be smooth. Yes it does have a nice oaky taste because of the oak added to the everclear.


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## JohnT (Mar 24, 2015)

vacuumpumpman said:


> john
> I understand where you are going with the brandy and all -
> but if you clean up the everclear with carbon and add alot of oak to it.
> I will turn it very brown in color - similar to brandy - while still keeping the high ABV.
> ...


 

My first batch was with everclear. I did oak the port, but not the everclear. Got to say that I did not like the taste of it. Have you every tried making with brandy???


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## NorCal (Mar 24, 2015)

I had a carboy of Zin from fresh grapes that got stuck at 5 brix, took a gallon out, added two handles of Costco brandy (works out close to 20% abv) and the resulting port is quite nice and could be consumed now after 7 months.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2015)

Yes - I have tried the brandy method

I personally like stopping the fermentation so I know exactly where the 
alcohol % is at. I noticed that it has a lot more body and overall taste in the port as you are not diluting it.

I do know that you should use carbon then heavy oak it for a minimum a week if not longer - in order to get rid of any aftertaste from the grain alcohol.

I noticed over the years that there are many ways to make wine - there is no perfect method. I personally like how simple this procedure is and the outcome of the final product.


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## JohnT (Mar 24, 2015)

VPM, 

I dunno.... My thinking is that there are more flavor components to brandy then just wood and alcohol. I just keep thinking of what I would prefer to sip on. 

Still, you do have me curious though. Perhaps I will give it a try.

On stopping fermentation... 


I too like to stop the fermentation, but for two other reasons... 

I stop the fermentation but allow the port to macerate on the skins. This really draws out a ton of extra body and color. 

By stopping the fermentation, I am retaining the natural fruit sugars and am not using any artificial back sweeteners. I do believe that this tastes better.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2015)

JohnT said:


> VPM,
> 
> I dunno.... My thinking is that there are more flavor components to brandy then just wood and alcohol. I just keep thinking of what I would prefer to sip on.
> 
> ...





I totally agree about the stopping fermentation - I like to cold macerate on the skins prior to fermentation. The reason being I don't want the skins to soak up all that alcohol.

heres a test - try taking vodka and adding alot of wood chips to it and come back 1 week later and tasting it ?


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## Runningwolf (Mar 24, 2015)

I think we have got way off the topic and should start a new thread here. With that said I do not like grain alcohol but running it through a brita filter several times helps. I use clean spirits made from grapes. If you have a distillery near by you may be able to get some. I ferment dry and then add the spirits so I do not have to add as much spirits resulting in less dilution. This is not the traditional method but I find it works very well for me. I back sweeten to 8.5% rs. I do not use any k-meta at all.

Someday I will try the more traditional way.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2015)

Dan 
You are correct about getting off the topic - but I have been in contact with the original poster -Dhaynes - and found where he can pick up chilean juice in his area for him.


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## seth8530 (Mar 24, 2015)

JohnT said:


> Seth,
> 
> I make with brandy. The additional flavor is really worth it (smokey, oaky goodness). All everclear does is bring a grain tasting burn.
> 
> ...



Well, and that is the question I bring up, is the BAD flavor (IMHO) from cheap brandy worse than a half as small amount of everklear?

I would not mind testing both ways out, but to be honest it seems for some reason that the whole port argument with cheap non grappa like brandy vs high proof grain spirit is more of an ideological argument than one based in any kind of fact most of the time.

I am still open either way though.


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## jensmith (Mar 24, 2015)

I avoid church.... But the one my Mother goes to and made us go to as kids uses concord grape JUICE, not wine. I guess the wine maker retired long long ago! 

Back on topic now


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## Dominic1920 (Mar 25, 2015)

Getting back on topic. Port is never used for sacramental wine that I ever heard of. Its usually a red wine that has had a little water added to it during the consecration. As some have said here already some churches (read: Not Catholic) who use simple grape juice for its mere symbolism. But since its supposed to represent the blood of Christ red wine is what most sacraments use.


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## Dhaynes (Mar 25, 2015)

Don't worry about getting off topic. I asked about port for communion wine because that's what they are using now. Several people have asked why port? I don't know but my in laws go to a different Episcopal Church and they use port as well. I'm going to ask my son's church that question. Once we get past "that's what we've always done" I'm betting it will come down to 1) It is dark red like blood and 2) it is sweet which may be more appealing to members who aren't wine drinkers. One other possible consideration is that all of the members drink from the same silver challis. They also mix the wine with water to symbolize the blood and water that came from Jesus side when a Roman soldier pierced his side after his death. The higher alcohol content of the port when mixed with water would still have a higher alcohol percentage that wine mixed with water. Maybe it's the antibacterial properties of the higher alcohol content they at going for. Guess I'll find out soon enough.

A lot of conservative churches are teetotalers so they avoid wine all together so they use grape juice instead. Many of them will argue with you that the "new" wine they had in Bible times was fresh grape juice that hadn't fermented. It's amazing how far people are willing distort the clear meaning of words to make them fit their personal bias. It's hard to know where this is more prevalent politics or religion  But at least the teetotalers usually us individual cups instead of one shared cup so they don't need the alcohol for its antibacterial properties.

Special thanks to Steve aka "vacuumpumpman" who spent over an hour this evening on the phone talking through the various options and sharing a wealth of knowledge about all things wine related. It was quite an education! Even if we don't end up doing port for the church, I now have a wealth of good information for making my next personal batch of port.


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## JohnT (Mar 25, 2015)

jensmith said:


> I avoid church.... But the one my Mother goes to and made us go to as kids uses concord grape JUICE, not wine. I guess the wine maker retired long long ago!
> 
> Back on topic now
> 
> ...


 

Concord??? Are they praying that the good lord will change it into something good?? (Sorry, I could not resist)....


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## JohnT (Mar 25, 2015)

seth8530 said:


> Well, and that is the question I bring up, is the BAD flavor (IMHO) from cheap brandy worse than a half as small amount of everklear?
> 
> I would not mind testing both ways out, but to be honest it seems for some reason that the whole port argument with cheap non grappa like brandy vs high proof grain spirit is more of an ideological argument than one based in any kind of fact most of the time.
> 
> I am still open either way though.


 

Seth, 

Although EJ brandy is not a Hennessy VSOP, it is rather drinkable. When I have a little left over, it does not go to waste. I am thinking that it is way more drinkable then filtered grain alcohol that has been oaked.


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## seth8530 (Mar 25, 2015)

I think you are under estimating how much I dislike e&j. To me it kind of had this over the top bubble gum flavor. 

I used to make cocktails with it and never liked them that much. Then I tried using a hither quality spirit and it was like night and day. 

So that is the argument I bring to the table, what is better more low quality brandy or less neutral grain alcohol? Grappa itself has attributes that in my opinion makes it hard to decide if it is more similar to everklear or drinking brandy.


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## jensmith (Mar 25, 2015)

JohnT said:


> Concord??? Are they praying that the good lord will change it into something good?? (Sorry, I could not resist)....



Well... It is said the he turned water into wine, maybe they are trying to speed it along! 
Besides, have you not learned to carry two mini bottles to church? One empty for the grape juice and one full of good wine for the cup 
Those are the best memorys of church. Sitting in the back phew swapping dirty jokes with the old farmer and eating peanut MM's. What Mother never knew.... 


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## JohnT (Mar 25, 2015)

jensmith said:


> Well... It is said the he turned water into wine, maybe they are trying to speed it along!


 
I hope that is the case. After all, didn't the good lord suffer enough for our sins?????


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 25, 2015)

Dhaynes said:


> Don't worry about getting off topic. I asked about port for communion wine because that's what they are using now. Several people have asked why port? I don't know but my in laws go to a different Episcopal Church and they use port as well. I'm going to ask my son's church that question. Once we get past "that's what we've always done" I'm betting it will come down to 1) It is dark red like blood and 2) it is sweet which may be more appealing to members who aren't wine drinkers. One other possible consideration is that all of the members drink from the same silver challis. They also mix the wine with water to symbolize the blood and water that came from Jesus side when a Roman soldier pierced his side after his death. The higher alcohol content of the port when mixed with water would still have a higher alcohol percentage that wine mixed with water. Maybe it's the antibacterial properties of the higher alcohol content they at going for. Guess I'll find out soon enough.
> 
> A lot of conservative churches are teetotalers so they avoid wine all together so they use grape juice instead. Many of them will argue with you that the "new" wine they had in Bible times was fresh grape juice that hadn't fermented. It's amazing how far people are willing distort the clear meaning of words to make them fit their personal bias. It's hard to know where this is more prevalent politics or religion  But at least the teetotalers usually us individual cups instead of one shared cup so they don't need the alcohol for its antibacterial properties.
> 
> ...



It was truly a pleasure talking to you Dennis !
I really enjoy helping or just talking to other winemakers. 

Good luck on you adventure - if you have any questions - you can always post them or give me a personal pm as i am stuck home for the next several weeks


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## richmke (Mar 25, 2015)

Dhaynes said:


> Don't worry about getting off topic. I asked about port for communion wine because that's what they are using now.



If you are going to make fortified port, I would ask the church about using grain alcohol (everclear). That seems to be a big no-no with sacramental wine. The consensus seems to be "grape only".


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## Dhaynes (Apr 1, 2015)

Finally heard back from the priest, "All Episcopal Churches use port". So, guess we're making port. I don't think they are as picky as other churches are about not using anything but grapes. Hard to see how you would get the high ABV without adding sugar or distilled alcohol. If you added a lot of raisins could that give you enough sugar to get to 18% or so?

Anyone have a recommendation for a kit to serve as the base wine?


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## seth8530 (Apr 1, 2015)

I don't do kits, but you might try taking a good strong red kit ( perhaps one with grapes similar to that used in port) and dilute it down to around 30 brix and an acceptable PH.. and then ferment to around 12% and then fortify. You should still have residual sugar... Think like ice wine.


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## corinth (Apr 1, 2015)

*anyone-have-experience-making-sacramental-wine*

Dhaynes,

What you are attempting to do is very much a blessing for your church. Though I am not an Episcopalian, you will probably need to ask a lot more questions before you attempt the actual process. 

If your Priest has final say , that would make things a lot easier for you; however, that being said, often, there are committee's that work in conjunction who give the Priest or Pastor their learned opinion from both a biblical view, any health issues that could arise as some parishioners have definite views as they are often part of your church council when it comes to matters of such importance. 

Though I am a practicing Catholic, I have volunteered many hours working with many Christian Denominations and various religions as the spirit guides me and at times, the path can be a rocky one.

My bottom line here is you need to talk to your pastor more and present your ideas to what ever church council may be part of the decision making process.

I bid you PEACE
Ed


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## richmke (Apr 1, 2015)

Dhaynes said:


> I don't think they are as picky as other churches are about not using anything but grapes. Hard to see how you would get the high ABV without adding sugar or distilled alcohol.



Brandy is distilled alcohol from grapes, so still meets the requirements. Grappa is also. I don't know which tastes better, but Grappa is a secondary product (made from pressed skins) and costs more since it is mostly imported.


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## JohnT (Apr 1, 2015)

We should ask Frier Tuckman.....


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