# To stir or not to stir (an amateur's yeast question)



## PrincessVintah

Just started our second WE kit, a Spanish Rioja. Our first kit was a Johannesburg Riesling which is now bulk aging.

The kit instructions say to sprinkle the yeast on top of the juice in our primary fermenter, but not to stir. Our LHBS has put out a pamphlet that says to go ahead and stir to get the yeast activated more quickly. 

What are your thoughts on this? And is it normal for the oak I added to float on top in spite of vigorous stirring? I'm a tad worried that that will keep the yeast from being able to sink and start fermenting.


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## robie

PrincessVintah said:


> Just started our second WE kit, a Spanish Rioja. Our first kit was a Johannesburg Riesling which is now bulk aging.
> 
> The kit instructions say to sprinkle the yeast on top of the juice in our primary fermenter, but not to stir. Our LHBS has put out a pamphlet that says to go ahead and stir to get the yeast activated more quickly.
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? And is it normal for the oak I added to float on top in spite of vigorous stirring? I'm a tad worried that that will keep the yeast from being able to sink and start fermenting.



If you do it the way the LHBS recommends, if it fails, you should be able to hold them partially responsible. 

Sprinkle on top or stir it in, either way will work. I think sprinkling gives the yeast time to acclimate. If you make a liquid yeast starter, you always stir it in, but you have to make sure the starter temperature is within a few degrees of the must.

Oak will always float at first. Once it becomes waterlogged, it will sink. However, during heavy fermentation, the CO2 in the wine can still bring the oak to the surface, but that's not a problem at all. A few dozen pieces of oak will not adversely affect 20 billion yeast, so don't worry about that. Do the instructions say for you to stir the oak back in periodically? I always keep a red stirred during primary.


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## PrincessVintah

Thanks, Robie! Our kit instructions don't say anything about stirring periodically. But I'm glad you said that you keep yours stirred during primary, because my gut instinct has been telling me to stir it once in a while. It's only been two days, and I haven't seen any bubbling in the airlock yet. Still early, I know. So perhaps I'll give her a stir today to mix in the oak again and see what happens in the next couple of days.


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## robie

Yep, the oak on top is not a problem. The yeast should mostly have sunk by now, on their own. A good stir at this point will be a good thing. It can't hurt a thing but can help by adding a little oxygen to help the yeast get going.

You are making a red. You can stir twice a day for the first 3 or 4 days of fermentation. If the instructions say to add an air lock already, go ahead and do so. If not, you can just cover the air lock hole with something to keep critters out of your wine. 

What is the temperature of the must? For a red to start fermenting, it is best if the temperature is in the mid 70'sF. One nice piece of wine making equipment is a brew belt. It applies heat to the wine to keep it warm until fermentation starts. Once fermentation starts you can turn the belt off because fermentation creates its own heat. When fermentation slows (time for second stage of fermentation), if the temperature drops below about 72F, turn the brew belt on again. This will help the wine finish out properly. Placing a brew belt around a glass carboy is something we all do regularly and without any problems.

Good luck!


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## jswordy

When I pitch yeast directly, I usually do not stir for the first 24 hours afterward. Then I stir twice daily after that to incorporate the yeast, oxygenate, and mix the sugars to make them more bioavailable. Once my racking day is established, I will not stir for the 24 hours prior to racking to allow more sediments to fall.


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## PrincessVintah

Good advice from all of you. The temp is usually around 72-73°, but with cooler weather coming on shortly a brew belt may be a good idea. I do live in Utah, and it can get cold. 

Thanks for all the advice. I have a tendency to stress out over the small stuff a bit, but I'm sure that as I learn and gain more experience that will subside. Having access to the wealth of knowledge on these forums helps a lot.


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## gfmonk

I also tend to stress out over little things. I'm thinking that will go away with experience. I just started a Old Vine Zin and I sprinkled the yeast on top and in less tan 12 hours fermentation had started in full force!


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## jswordy

Over the weekend I was at the winery of a guy who has won tons and tons of first, second and best of show awards. He has a huge board with them all on it. He's been making wine since the 70s.

I saw maybe 15 things he was doing right there in my plain sight as he showed me around that would cause this forum to go ballistic!



Then he pulled his tasting glass out of the chlorine bleach bath he keeps it in, right there on his winemaking bench, washed it out well with water ("I'm a big believer in chlorine!" he said), and began hitting me with samples of his award-winning wines.



Now there are forum people clutching at their chests after reading that last paragraph! 



But boy was that wine *GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD* when he poured it out of the half-empty gallon jugs where he had it stored in his fridge for who knows how long!!! One of them was raspberry he said won the best of show like 3 years ago!!!!!!



It's good to be careful and prudent, but not to obsess.


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## robie

Yep, I see that same thing from time to time.

As you already know, wine making is pretty forgiving. There are "best practices" and "just get by practices". Some of the things he is doing is not best practice now and never will be. Adopt a best practices methodology and you will avoid many of the problems he likely has had in the past or will someday have. 

We all have a choice. Sort of like the pay me now or pay me later issue.


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## PrincessVintah

robie said:


> As you already know, wine making is pretty forgiving. There are "best practices" and "just get by practices". Some of the things he is doing is not best practice now and never will be. Adopt a best practices methodology and you will avoid many of the problems he likely has had in the past or will someday have.
> 
> We all have a choice. Sort of like the pay me now or pay me later issue.



I agree absolutely. I just get confused when with our first batch (a Riesling, now bulk aging in our second carboy) we stirred the yeast in on the advice of our LHBS brochure, and it was fermenting wonderfully on day 2 and finished fermenting on day 5. With this batch (Spanish Rioja) we sprinkled they yeast on top and didn't stir it in (hubby wanted to follow kit instructions exactly) and now, on day 3, the airlock is still not bubbling. You can smell the yeast pretty strong, though, so I'm sure it's doing something.

Could it be simply the difference between making a white and making a red? Is it that my primary fermenter is a 10 gallon bucket instead of the 7.9 gallon bucket my friends loaned me to start my first batch?

I love the learning process, which is probably why I ask so many questions. I want to understand the finer points of the process. I have this vision of someday having some young, wannabe winemaker come to me with all of these same questions. And I will answer them all without hesitation. And they will think I am brilliant and wise, and they will worship me and wear a t-shirt with my face on it..............Okay, that went a bit too far. But you get the point. I love learning. I want to make great wines. Yet I am a beginner and must start the learning process somewhere. Thank you all for being the "Master" to my "Grasshopper"! (Please tell me that you get that reference!)


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## robie

Nothing wrong with wanting to be your very best. It starts with some learning experiences and training (and an active imagination). You will do just fine.

If you are getting a definite yeasty, fermentation smell, something must be happening for you. I assume you took an initial specific gravity reading; what is the reading today? It should be dropping but if fermentation just started, probably not that much.

The hydrometer is your friend!


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## jswordy

Is it the same yeast in both recipes?

I have also found that the ingredients in the must affect how vigorous the yeast is. 

Also, the temp of the must affects the yeast.

I don't airlock my primaries, but for example I have had 71B1122 rock and roll along like crazy and sound like Rice Krispies, and I have had it barely popping bubbles at the surface. They all turned out to be good wines. Your hydrometer is your source for info on what is going on, rather than your senses. If it is dropping, stuff is happening. The faster it drops, the more is going on.

As a side note, whole bananas sliced into 1-inch chunks and tossed in the primary in a mesh bag have been a wonderful invigorator for yeast in my experience, and they add body to the wine.

Robie, there are many paths to enlightenment, says the Buddha. I am not about to criticize a man with 40-plus years experience, plus a huge board full of first and second place ribbons and best in show awards. 

On the other hand, I am not about to say anything in advice to anyone else on the board here that is not a "best practice," because I don't want to ruin a beginner's first wine. Stuff may work great for me that is not approved here, but I can't be sure it will transfer to someone else.

That said, I also suspect that a lot of what is considered best practice is driven by fear and marketing, rather than science. I personally practice many of these things, not because I know they actually work, but because I am afraid of what might happen if I don't.


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## robie

jswordy said:


> Robie, there are many paths to enlightenment, says the Buddha. I am not about to criticize a man with 40-plus years experience, plus a huge board full of first and second place ribbons and best in show awards.
> 
> On the other hand, I am not about to say anything in advice to anyone else on the board here that is not a "best practice," because I don't want to ruin a beginner's first wine. Stuff may work great for me that is not approved here, but I can't be sure it will transfer to someone else.
> 
> That said, I also suspect that a lot of what is considered best practice is driven by fear and marketing, rather than science. I personally practice many of these things, not because I know they actually work, but because I am afraid of what might happen if I don't.



That's why "they" say wine making is "an art".

No, I wouldn't say anything to your friend, either. He is a proven winner, regardless. He has his process down and it works for him, that's all that matters. But as you said, I wouldn't advise a beginner to do practice some of his methods.

I think it comes down to numbers. The greater the number of things you do by "best practice", the more likely you are to have success IN THE LONG RUN.

I still bet there are a lot of valuable things you can learn from that friend.


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## PrincessVintah

Ahhhhh.........the hydrometer! Why didn't I think of that?!

Just tested at 1.020. Yesss!! So it is doing something after all. I also checked the temperature, it's at 79.5 even though the house temp is only 72. We keep the fermenter in the dining room out of the line of the swamp cooler just so it doesn't cool down too much. Gotta say it's looking (and smelling) pretty good to me.


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## robie

PrincessVintah said:


> Ahhhhh.........the hydrometer! Why didn't I think of that?!
> 
> Just tested at 1.020. Yesss!! So it is doing something after all. I also checked the temperature, it's at 79.5 even though the house temp is only 72. We keep the fermenter in the dining room out of the line of the swamp cooler just so it doesn't cool down too much. Gotta say it's looking (and smelling) pretty good to me.



Yep, fermentation UNDER WAY!!! Some people don't like the smell of fermenting wine. My dog doesn't, for sure; he starts sneezing. I love that smell! 

I do my fermentation down in the basement. When I open the door and go down, I get a good indication of the health of the fermentation just by the smell. Fermentation problems usually show up in the smell as well.


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## PrincessVintah

robie said:


> Yep, fermentation UNDER WAY!!! Some people don't like the smell of fermenting wine. My dog doesn't, for sure; he starts sneezing. I love that smell!



I'm with you, Robie! I LOVE that smell! Every once in a while I catch myself thinking, "Geez, my house smells like a brewery!" And then I remember.....it IS a brewery! And then I smile!


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