# MLF Malo-lactic fermentation



## OldCanalBrewing (Apr 3, 2012)

Okay. I have read til I was sleeping on this subject. I am getting a bucket of Chilean Pinot Nior soon and want to do it well. I have plenty of fermenting under my belt, but none with the juice buckets. 

I am not sure I am ready to do this and don't really want to waste a whole bucket if I fudge it up. Would the wine turn out fine without it? I think I'd rather try on a one or two gallon batch first to see if I don't mess up. The buckets should come balanced.

Thanks!


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## Julie (Apr 3, 2012)

well I'm not one to recommend an MLF and I'm sure those who do this will come on with some advice. But where I get my chilean buckets, they already balance the acid and innoculate it with yeast and the winemake there tells me if I am drinking this wine within 2 years don't bother with an MLF.

So I guess what you need to figure out is whether or not this is an early drinker or are you going to be aging this for over 2 years. And the other thing you need to understand, do you like dry wines or do you like off dry or semi dry. If you prefer off wines, the an MLF will not be to your liking cuz you can not sweeten a wine that has gone thru a MLF.

Hope this helps.


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## PCharles (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm in the same boat, being a first timer with frozen juice buckets from Chili. I plan to add grape skins and hope to replicate wine just as if it were made from crushed grapes. Julie makes a good point in that if you don't like your wine dry, avoid MLF. I like dry reds, so that objection is out for me. Performing MLF doesn't take a great deal of time, it smooths out the bitterness of a young dry red wine. Also, it might be difficult to prevent MLF from happening on its own. 

Best of luck with your frozen juice wine.


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## grapeman (Apr 4, 2012)

MLF is not at all difficult. Like said, keep the wine dry for home use as you won't be sterile filtering. 

Let it ferment as usual and when put into glass, innoculate with the mlb after that first slightly dirty racking. The small packets come with nutrient in them so it is an all inclusive thing however you take advantage of the fine lees as a food source for the bacteria. Keep the wine warm around 70-75 and be sure not to silfite at that racking. Gently stir or tip the carboy daily to keep the lees in suspension. It will take about a month to finish. Look for small bubbles rising around the outside and forming a bubble ring at the top. 

Testing for finish is best, but not a necessity. After the bubbling ceases, it should be done and you sulite then. I let it bulk age for a while after this and that will ensure it is finished.


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## pioneergirl (Apr 4, 2012)

*Just a topic I was beginning to research*

I am considering (and likely will) adding an MLF culture to my next batches of red wine. I have never done this and would still consider myself a daring novice. As stated above, it is supposed to smooth out the tannin taste and I read that it is used for wines that will be drunk on the sooner end rather than the later end. I am open and anxious to hear more feedback from those that use MLF in their dry red wines. The when they add it, how long they notice it active (if you notice it at all?) and what the experience has been over aging and taste of wine?

I have to go back and check my book too and get back on this topic. (gotta run.)


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## robie (Apr 5, 2012)

pioneergirl said:


> I am considering (and likely will) adding an MLF culture to my next batches of red wine. I have never done this and would still consider myself a daring novice. As stated above, it is supposed to smooth out the tannin taste and I read that it is used for wines that will be drunk on the sooner end rather than the later end. I am open and anxious to hear more feedback from those that use MLF in their dry red wines. The when they add it, how long they notice it active (if you notice it at all?) and what the experience has been over aging and taste of wine?
> 
> I have to go back and check my book too and get back on this topic. (gotta run.)



Just make sure you don't try to do an mlf on a kit wine. That's a no-no.


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## pioneergirl (Apr 5, 2012)

I wanted to do more research on this. Is this because the wine kits/juice concentrates already are "balanced" out? I still haven't grabbed my book.....But, I know my little book has about 3 paragraphs on the topic and I don't recall it referencing kits at all - only refering to pressed juices.

And because I don't know what I am talking about, the question in my mind is what will it do to ruin/how will it go wrong in a juice concentrate &/or wine kit???

I think this is a good discussion....

What types of wine/juice would you put an MLF into and why it won't work in other situations

Which reds/whites

When/timing/how long to "leave" before moving to next steps.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 5, 2012)

If you do a MLF and decide to test buy a chromatagraphy Test Kit. Presque Isle has excellent prices on them and they are very easy to do. You will waste a lot of money buying a Accuvin kit. They are very hard to read and inaccurate.


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## robie (Apr 5, 2012)

pioneergirl said:


> I wanted to do more research on this. Is this because the wine kits/juice concentrates already are "balanced" out? I still haven't grabbed my book.....But, I know my little book has about 3 paragraphs on the topic and I don't recall it referencing kits at all - only refering to pressed juices.
> 
> And because I don't know what I am talking about, the question in my mind is what will it do to ruin/how will it go wrong in a juice concentrate &/or wine kit???
> 
> ...



The reason for MLF is to soften the wine, because of the acids in the wine. Kit wines have already had the acids manipulated to a great degree and will not benefit that much from MLF.

Most kits wines come with sorbate. If you add sorbate and an MLF bacteria can get to it, it produces a really bad off taste, that will render the wine pretty much undrinkable and unfixable.

Wines that benefit from MLF?
Chardonnay
Pinot Noir
Cab/Sav
Red Zin
Syrah.
... just to name a few. This may be over simplified but:
MLF seems more necessary on a grape grown in cooler regions, compared to the same grape grown in warmer regions, because of their higher acid, but that's not always true. (Cooler weather tends to produce more acid in the same grape variety compare to it being grown in warmer weather. Think of sugar developing during the heat of the day, acid developing during the cool of the night. Take away some of the warmth of the day and add more coolness overall, you can get more acid.)

Really, MLF can be a pain to get started and more pain to determine when/if it is (ever) finished. It can take well over a month to complete it; meanwhile, you can't add sulfites to protect the wine until MLF is completed.

The wine has to be tested regularly to determine if MLF ever started and when it is completed.

Last MLF I did was a challenge. It just didn't seem to want to start; I kept temperature at the recommended 68F. Nothing happened for 6 weeks. Finally, I raised the temperature to about 72F, and MLF started. 2 and a half months after I started malo had dropped about half, but I chickened out and added Kmeta to stop MLF and protect the wine. It was a very stressful time, I can assure you, as I was afraid the wine was going to ruin. (Wine has almost not free SO2 left in it by the time it comes out of fermentation, so it had no protection until after MLF was stopped.)

Something like a chardonnay, kit or not, can get a lot of benefit from lees aging and stirring without having to go through MLF. This alternative works wonders for any Chardonnay, IMO.

My advice, leave MLF's until you get experienced with fresh/frozen grape wine.

Me? I'll do MLF again next Fall... go figure!


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## cpfan (Apr 5, 2012)

robie said:


> The reason for MLF is to soften the wine, because of the acids in the wine. Kit wines have already had the acids manipulated to a great degree and *will not benefit that much* from MLF.


Further to this point, MLF is not recommended for most kit wines. It is said to create a "flabby" wine. Can't recall what that means exactly, but I'm damn certain that I'm not spending extra money on a kit in order to make a "flabby" wine.

A few years ago, a Heron Bay kit rep said that some of their kits were OK with MLF. I think Heron Bay is all but discontinued. Some people consider the Williams cans of concentrate to be kits, but they are not "true" kits (at least IMO). Pretty sure that none of the major kit brands recommend MLF.

Steve


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## Turock (Apr 6, 2012)

The wine becomes flabby under an MLF because MLF's reduce the wine's acid. Pinot Noir is a harsh little wine when done in fruit style--meaning no MLF. I guess SOME people may like it in fruit style, but I'm not a fan of it. Like it only when an MLF has been done.

The comment about waiting to do an MLF until you have more winemaking experience under your belt is a good one, in my opinion. We never attempted it until we had refined our winemaking experience. We MLF'd a Pinot Noir and it turned out real nice. Was complete in about 3 weeks--not 2 months. And if you want to do it, I recommend reading up on it until you understand the process and its requirements. There's a lot of white paper written on the subject that you can find if you Google the subject. I always recommend homework before attempting things you've never done before.


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## PCharles (Apr 6, 2012)

Here is a link to an MLF guide. http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wmlfinfo.pdf

I believe it was Mike (ibglowin) who first tipped me off on about this guide. Hopefully it will address any questions about MLF that you may have.


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## robie (Apr 6, 2012)

PCharles said:


> Here is a link to an MLF guide. http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wmlfinfo.pdf
> 
> I believe it was Mike (ibglowin) who first tipped me off on about this guide. Hopefully it will address any questions about MLF that you may have.



I use that guide, too. Just have to think when using it, because it has some typo's that could cause problems. Still, it is good to reference.


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## shanek17 (Apr 7, 2012)

robie said:


> The reason for MLF is to soften the wine, because of the acids in the wine. Kit wines have already had the acids manipulated to a great degree and will not benefit that much from MLF.
> 
> Most kits wines come with sorbate. If you add sorbate and an MLF bacteria can get to it, it produces a really bad off taste, that will render the wine pretty much undrinkable and unfixable.
> 
> ...




Hey Robbie thanks for the info , you make some great points and im happy to read about it as im eager to learn about MLF. But i have a question about when you said "you can't add sulfites to protect the wine until MLF is completed."

because then after you said you dumped in the sulfites when your MLF was half way done. 

Is there any way to know if a cider or wine is going through MLF without buying expensive kits? I have some homemade batches going and am hoping I dont have to worry about disturbing MLF!


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## cdjohnston (Apr 16, 2012)

Hey OldCanalBrew:

On kit wines (in a box) that have been manipulated by the manufacuturer, I would be careful. Make sure that they did NOT use D-Malic as part of the acidification. On pails meant as "KIT" it's iffy. For pails meant for commercial use or a concentrate i would not be so worried. The commercial pails and concentrate are just raw juice. You MUST adjust your acid to your winemaking style (using tartaric).

L-Malic occurs naturally in wine. D-Malic is commonly used to acidify flabby white wine prior to sterile bottling.

With the "be careful" warning issued, MLF is very good. Your wine becomes more stable and the mouthfeel is a little wider. Last thing you want is MLF taking place in the bottle. MLF does release CO2 and may cause exploding bottles or at least fizzy wine.

Most kits I know of will adjust using tartaric acid which will simply fall out. If they used D-Malic acid to adjust and you go through MLF you will get the aromas of Geraniums and other stinky things happening. Not a desirable thing.

Just check with the maker about the addition of D-Malic in their kits and MLF with confidence!


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## robie (Apr 16, 2012)

shanek17 said:


> Hey Robbie thanks for the info , you make some great points and im happy to read about it as im eager to learn about MLF. But i have a question about when you said "you can't add sulfites to protect the wine until MLF is completed."
> 
> because then after you said you dumped in the sulfites when your MLF was half way done.
> 
> Is there any way to know if a cider or wine is going through MLF without buying expensive kits? I have some homemade batches going and am hoping I dont have to worry about disturbing MLF!



I am sorry for the late response, but I somehow missed your question before.

I added Kmeta halfway through to terminate MLF. Because it had been so long in MLF, I didn't want to leave it any longer. 

The only sure way I know of to know if MLF is underway is to test for it with a proper test setup. A chromatography test kit is general the way to go. Accuvin also sells a simple test kit. Either way, you have to test, wait several days, then test again, to really know if MLF is underway.


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## pioneergirl (Apr 25, 2012)

I have put a "hold" on this topic too for the time being. I ran across a journal article that was very scientific (down to exactly when to add and whether the exact timing had any effect on final product, odors, tastes, what type of tastes, scientists, graphing, and such) and kind of shut my brain down! I needed a glass of wine after reading it. 

It left me at a point that I didn't know whether MLF would make any difference at all on a wine kit. Yes, they are calibrated to turn out "right" -- but then what....I will wait until I regain my fortitude to do proper research on the topic before I dive into it. I sooooo appreciate the feedback regarding adding into kits. I'll have to start my own thread - didn't mean to hijack this one in any way when I regain my strength.


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