# No nose



## crackermonkey (Mar 26, 2020)

So I’ve made more than a dozen kits at home over the last 2 years, some have turned out great but none of them have smelled like the description of the wine . I compared a one year old WE bronello I made to one my father in law made at a u brew and his smelled excactly like the description and mine smelled like red wine that’s it but still tasted great . Wondering what I’m doing wrong fermenting temperature? Storage temperature? Letting ferment too dry ? 
thx


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## jbo_c (Mar 29, 2020)

Even tiny amounts of residual CO2 seem to inhibit aromas in my experience.

That said, very red kit I’ve ever made(and that’s a fair number, though not as many as some) has been lacking in nose regardless of the flavors.

Jbo


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## crackermonkey (Mar 29, 2020)

Well it’s good to hear I’m not alone .i make the Washington Merlot often and when I’m pouring it into the fermenter it smells awesome tons of chocolate and other aromas and the nothing once cleared . I am a little worried about degassing to much and causing oxidation, is There a way to check co2 levels?


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## jbo_c (Mar 30, 2020)

I don’t know of a scientific test though there may be one. Like many went to vacuum racking and have had good success. Still light on nose, though. 

Jbo


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 31, 2020)

crackermonkey said:


> Is there a way to check co2 levels?


* i am not aware of any home method. However , We have lab instruments and on line sensors so the technology exists. Hach and Parr are examples.
* if I do TA on a carbonated sample I microwave,, stirr,, cool ,, then run. For soda the carbonated pH is typically 0.1 units lower and TA about 0.1% higher.
* if I pull 15 inches Hg on a bottle it might have a trace/ few bubbles form. If it releases bubbles constantly I assume I can taste it. An interest fun activity while shut up in the basement is to vacuum a sample, hit the table with a hammer and watch a cloud of bubbles form. There might be a test in there. 
i don’t have test data but My assumption is that a 5 inch vacuum with no bubbles is normal flavor.


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## Johnd (Mar 31, 2020)

crackermonkey said:


> is There a way to check co2 levels?



You can do what we have called the "Poof Test". Put some wine into a container, about 3/4 full, like a test tube or small bottle, cover the open end with your thumb, and shake it vigorously. When you release your thumb from over the opening, if you get a "poof" of gas coming out, your wine still has residual CO2 in it. If no "poof", then you should be degassed sufficiently.


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## Swedeman (Apr 1, 2020)

jbo_c said:


> Like many went to vacuum racking and have had good success. Still light on nose, though.


I doubt applying vacuum preserve wine flavor, rather the opposite. It's reasonable to assume to you will lose more volatile compounds with vacuum than without (depending on time and degree of vacuum). Having said that; I can't back that up with any peer review studies. Only my own test that I did once, did half a batch with vacuum degassing and the other half without. The difference was noticeable so I don't use vacuum anymore on my wines even if I'm not sure I would have got the same result again. Still, there a descent nose to my kits. Your mileage my vary.


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## Johnd (Apr 1, 2020)

Swedeman said:


> I doubt applying vacuum preserve wine flavor, rather the opposite. It's reasonable to assume to you will lose more volatile compounds with vacuum than without (depending on time and degree of vacuum). Having said that; I can't back that up with any peer review studies. Only my own test that I did once, did half a batch with vacuum degassing and the other half without. The difference was noticeable so I don't use vacuum anymore on my wines even if I'm not sure I would have got the same result again. Still, there a descent nose to my kits. Your mileage my vary.



Hmmmm, I suspect that there will be a lot of people very concerned about your one time study. Having vacuumed hundreds, if not thousands of wines, including vacuum racking, degassing, and vacuum bottling, I am one of them. Studies have been conducted by pros on vacuum degassing wine without reporting “noticeable difference“. Here’s some relevant clips from an article written by a respected wine source, no mention of loss of wine flavor.


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## jbo_c (Apr 1, 2020)

I feel certain there must be “some” loss of aromatics with vacuum moving wine, but I taste virtually every batch both before and after(just because I can) and have never detected a loss of aroma.

Jbo


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## jbo_c (Apr 1, 2020)

Just to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting vacuum would improve taste per se, only that it would ensure removal of dissolved CO2, which absolutely mutes flavors.

Jbo


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## Swedeman (Apr 1, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Hmmmm, I suspect that there will be a lot of people very concerned about your one time study. Having vacuumed hundreds, if not thousands of wines, including vacuum racking, degassing, and vacuum bottling, I am one of them.


I didn't say I vacuumed wine once, I said I did a side by side test on the same batch once. Have you done that? Since I stopped vacuuming my wine, I'm pretty pleased with the nose. Though that doesn't prove that vacuuming wine is bad nor doesn't say that that is the reason the nose on my wine has improved. My only intention was to start a thought process. If one is happy with the nose, fine. If not, is there anything I can do about it? Your vacuum setup (degree of vacuum and time) might or might not influence it.

Let me ask you something, what is "nose"? That is compounds volatile enough to be released from the wine so one can smell them. Even without the need of vacuum. Now apply vacuum and ask yourself if you will increase the release of those compounds or not. Also, swirling around wine in a glass improves the nose. Why? 

Fermenting at lower temperatures is believed to improve aroma as less volatile compounds are lost due to the less vigorous fermentation. 



https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream/handle/10919/10173/CaptureandReturnBodyMatter.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y



_"AROMA & FLAVOR TRAPPING Several procedures for trapping volatiles from the escaping CO2 stream in wine have been reported (Simpson and Miller 1984a, Muller et al. 1993, Miller et al. 1987, Todd et al. 1990). *It has been shown that a large number of volatile components can be lost to the atmosphere during vinification due to their inherent volatility and the ease with which they are entrained to the escaping carbon dioxide* (Muller et al. 1993). There are a number of factors that affect the extent to which the volatiles are lost. Simpson et al (1984a) state that the extent of loss of aroma compounds depends upon temperature, rate of gas evolution and the type of fermentation vessel utilized. Vapor phase concentration 14 is also affected by ethanol concentration and carbon dioxide evolution "_

Now adopt that to degassing using vacuum or simply letting time do the degassing.

That fact that Tim isn't mentioning it the article is hardly a proof that it doesn't happens. If it's enough for you to notice it the difference is another thing.

But, whatever bites your biscuit.


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## joeswine (Apr 1, 2020)

*Swedeman*: I've done vacuum degassing in the past and from my experience your correct you lose Alcohol first, and then the chemical balance in the structure of the wine because you've crated an imbalance in the structure of the mix.
Transferring is one thing ,pulling a vacuum with out knowing how deep or knowing what the actually wine trade off is not for me. I'm old school I make wine with the time processes in mind to do the work as required.
I've found with the volume I make (and its small) that I control the process and the time frame ,it doesn't control me.
*Keep in mind I make kits a lot and if one intends to make wine you should expect to put the time the wine requires ,*


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## Johnd (Apr 1, 2020)

@Swedeman , I’ve smelled / tasted wines before and after vacuuming countless times never noting any difference between the before / after product. There’s no disagreement that CO2 exiting wine can release aroma compounds as it exits, whether you vacuum rack, whip it with a drill, splash rack, etc. 
I’m no proponent of vacuuming beyond what’s necessary to either degas or move wine from vessel to vessel, it’s a big part of how lots of folks move wine. Personally, I’ve vacuum racked for many years out of the fermentation vessel, vacuum racked off of the gross lees a few days later, vacuum racked into a barrel, vacuum racked out of the barrel, and vacuum racked into bottles before being corked. Again, never noted any before / after differences, and that’s the point I was trying to make. No mention of flavor / aroma loss in the article is relevant, in my opinion.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 1, 2020)

It’s not anything to with use of vacuum imo. It’s just the nature of (some?) kits. This was one of the biggest differences I’ve noticed in kit wine compared to wine from fresh grapes/juice — the lack of a strong nose/bouquet.
Another thing I noticed was lack of strong legs.


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## Swedeman (Apr 2, 2020)

Johnd said:


> I’ve smelled / tasted wines before and after vacuuming countless times never noting any difference between the before / after product.


I didn't say that everybody would, but I did and maybe someone, who is unhappy, would.


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## Johnd (Apr 2, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> It’s not anything to with use of vacuum imo. It’s just the nature of (some?) kits. This was one of the biggest differences I’ve noticed in kit wine compared to wine from fresh grapes/juice — the lack of a strong nose/bouquet.
> Another thing I noticed was lack of strong legs.



I think the general consensus over the years, at least here, has been on that track, kits are lighter on the nose than grape / commercial wines. I’ve had, and still do, some that were pretty aromatic later in life, but generally speaking, believe that to be true. 

Much has been written of legs, it’s not on my list as important to evaluate, some say it only indicates the presence of alcohol. When I see inky legs staining my glass after a few swirls, that first sip holds extra promise, at least for me!


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## Ted Brumleve (Apr 2, 2020)

No matter the exact process, concentrating (removing water) the kit juice has to remove some of those volatile compounds that give aromas to the nose. Kit concentrates vs whole juice is not a fair fight. But you can still make good wine from kits.


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## bkisel (Apr 2, 2020)

Swedeman said:


> I doubt applying vacuum preserve wine flavor, rather the opposite. It's reasonable to assume to you will lose more volatile compounds with vacuum than without (depending on time and degree of vacuum). Having said that; I can't back that up with any peer review studies. Only my own test that I did once, did half a batch with vacuum degassing and the other half without. The difference was noticeable so I don't use vacuum anymore on my wines even if I'm not sure I would have got the same result again. Still, there a descent nose to my kits. Your mileage my vary.


That is a very interesting observation. It does make sense that you'd loose some aroma.


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## joeswine (Apr 2, 2020)

I'm the process which ever you chose, you loose some of the structure of the mix. have you ever notice when someone is trying to extract the NOSE of a commercial wine they swirl the glass then for some strange reason they have to stick their entire nose in the glass and breath deeply to extract the aroma?
This is common in wines, the other thing is the legs, thats the alcohol content in the wine speaking to you sating yes I'm here that's part of my the structure.
The one thing I can say about *KITS* is that the process is easy ,straight forward and can be rewarding, especially if you can* think outside the box*


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## crackermonkey (Apr 3, 2020)

Wow, well I did not expect to learn so much about vacuuming when I started this post , 
I was in the same camp as the majority here that kit wine just doesn’t produce a good nose ,until a bottle of my father in laws WE Brunello blew me away . It smelled just as described by the manufacturer. It was a year old just the same as mine but smelled completely different. His was made at a now closed down u brew and mine in my basement. The only thing difference I can think of is his wine cellar is cold between 9 and 12 c depending on time of year , mine is closer to 18 . What’s your opinions on the proper temp for aging wine ?


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 3, 2020)

Aging is thought to be less important than the temperature where you run your fermentation. Low fermentation temp is used to retain fruity aroma. 
Do you have other space? Some folks in the vinters club safely ferment in the garage with no heat. Yes it gets slushy and stops in january, , , but it works. When I run low temp I put a temperature controller on the fridge and do age at basement temp.


crackermonkey said:


> The only thing difference I can think of is his wine cellar is cold between 9 and 12 c depending on time of year , mine is closer to 18 . What’s your opinions on the proper temp for aging wine ?


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## joeswine (Apr 3, 2020)

Wine doesn't like warm climates speeds up the processes for the good or bad,cooler climates slow the wine down and allows the process to happen naturally. Make sense?
Always remember the structure has had to be there from the start for all this to happen.


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## winemanden (Apr 3, 2020)

jbo_c said:


> Just to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting vacuum would improve taste per se, only that it would ensure removal of dissolved CO2, which absolutely mutes flavors.
> 
> Jbo


So, if CO2 mutes flavours, why do people spend so much cash buying wine that has been carbonated ( Champagne style or otherwise)? Isolation Nitpicking again, me that is not you


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## crackermonkey (Apr 3, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Aging is thought to be less important than the temperature where you run your fermentation. Low fermentation temp is used to retain fruity aroma.
> Do you have other space? Some folks in the vinters club safely ferment in the garage with no heat. Yes it gets slushy and stops in january, , , but it works. When I run low temp I put a temperature controller on the fridge and do age at basement temp.


I ferment usually by the specs of the kit which is always between 18 -22 so you think I should try fermenting at less than 18 . 
I store my of 8 months or older In 120 bottle wine fridge , temperature now lowered to 15 degrees Celsius, bulk aging carboys I just lowered to 15 as well In a temperature controlled room .
And I am about to purchase an old Pepsi cooler which I plan to convert to a wine fridge and try aging some of my wine at much cooler temperature.


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## joeswine (Apr 3, 2020)

Your talking about 2 different things.
Wine that is created to have a carbonation and or processes that need to be removed from a wines natural finish.


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## winemanden (Apr 3, 2020)

Just been vacuuming. Hmm, this wine smells and tastes the same as before I started. Sorry, vacuuming the living room doesn't count.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 3, 2020)

winemanden said:


> So, if CO2 mutes flavours, why do people spend so much cash buying wine that has been carbonated ( Champagne style or otherwise)


CO2 changes the flavor. If you take a soda and let the gas out it will taste “flat” the pH is higher, it seems to taste sweeter, it will lose the slight bitter carbonic notes, the TA will have decreased. You can also see these difference with sparking water.
Yes some vendors will buy a low TA white wine, carbonate it and sell as a sparkling. It goes back to the concept of balancing flavor. Sugar brings out fruity notes but to balance sugar a beverage will be formulated with acid and/or tannin and/or other bitter flavors.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 3, 2020)

Kits are designed to ferment fast for immediate gratification. A red is usually built with tannic flavor backbone that won’t volatilize, so folks accept tannic as normal.
You could run at the bottom temp of the yeast, for many 10C / 50F.


crackermonkey said:


> I ferment usually by the specs of the kit which is always between 18 -22 so you think I should try fermenting at less than 18C


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## Ted Brumleve (Apr 3, 2020)

Made a kit white several years ago that went through primary in the 72F kitchen and smelled wonderful. At bottling, it had almost no flavor or aroma. Nearby professional winemaker said "Oh, I ferment all my whites at 64F. My pole barn has serious A/C." My basement is not 64F, but it is cooler than 72F. Time to find another fridge?


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## joeswine (Apr 3, 2020)

Remember what I said about temp verses fermentation = outcome depending on structure of the base quality.


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## jsbeckton (Apr 3, 2020)

Never had any real nose on any kit that I have ever made. It’s one of my gripes with kits.


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## crackermonkey (Apr 4, 2020)

Ok guys , so now I’m I bit paranoid I have not been degassing enough ,just uncorked my super Tuscan I just bottle two weeks ago after 3 months bulk aging . I poured i tiny bit out out my thumb over the top shook it and when removed it went pop ! It does not taste bubbly . So do I un cork them all degas them and re bottle or is the damage done and I ride it out . 
oh I’m checking two more bottled batches tonight and bunch bulk aging .


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## Johnd (Apr 4, 2020)

crackermonkey said:


> Ok guys , so now I’m I bit paranoid I have not been degassing enough ,just uncorked my super Tuscan I just bottle two weeks ago after 3 months bulk aging . I poured i tiny bit out out my thumb over the top shook it and when removed it went pop ! It does not taste bubbly . So do I un cork them all degas them and re bottle or is the damage done and I ride it out .
> oh I’m checking two more bottled batches tonight and bunch bulk aging .


“Degassing” isn’t an activity/step in real winemaking, it’s just something that happens over the time it takes wine to be ready to bottle. When was the last time you visited a winery and while on the tour, the guide said: “And this is the state of the art, Acme QT-375 Gen 2 Degassing Chamber”?

In our impatient world, degassing has been introduced as a way to get your wine ready to bottle earlier. I did it when I made kits, until I wanted to make better wine, then I started using barrels and actually finishing my wines before bottling. 

Cant tell you what to do with wine that still has CO2 in it, that’ll have to be your choice, there’s no silver bullet. If it doesn’t bother you, roll with it. If it is noticeable, you might just try giving a bottle a few shakes / poofs when you open it, or aerate / decant upon opening, that may help. Don’t bottle poofy wine, it’s not finished.


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## Doug’s wines (Apr 4, 2020)

Early on I bottled a couple of batches of kit wine that wasnt fully degassed. Every so often I open a bottle and it’s still there. I put it in a decanter, give it several good full swirls, let it sit for about an hour and it seems to take care of the problem. Now I don’t bottle for at least a year, so don’t seem to have the issue anymore. 

On dumping - I have an interesting experience on this one. I did a GSM kit that I split with a friend (RJS Primeur Spanish Grenache Syrah) and noticed my half had a lot of gas in it. I dumped the bottles, degassed and rebottled (there’s a thread on this board somewhere about it). He did not. We had the chance to open and taste them side by side recently. on opening his was still gassy (been a little over 2 years) and we both preferred mine. After an hour in the decanter, his was the same or even slightly better (don’t tell him I said that!). The next day mine was vinegar and his was still tasting good... I’m not really sure of the full takeaway as this only represents 1 test, but personally I decided I would probably never dump a batch again just go through the decanting process. Also decided I need to drink the rest of that GSM soon.

hope this helps.


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## winemanden (Apr 5, 2020)

Quite a long time ago I made an Elderberry +Grape concentrate wine following a recipe someone had optimistically called Burgundy. It finished slightly too acid but not enough but not enough to justify fiddling with so when it was ready( no sign of gas), I bottled it. Twelve months later I opened the first bottle. It was gorgeous, but there was a slight fizz with no sediment at all so I assumed must have come form a Malolactic ferment in the bottle. Anyway the wine seemed in good balance. I only regret I haven't been able to replicate it.
Regards to all, Stay safe.


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## FermentoSapiens (Apr 5, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> It’s not anything to with use of vacuum imo. It’s just the nature of (some?) kits. This was one of the biggest differences I’ve noticed in kit wine compared to wine from fresh grapes/juice — the lack of a strong nose/bouquet.
> Another thing I noticed was lack of strong legs.


I have not experienced any lack of nose in most kit wines I have made. In fact, the latest I made had really good nose and way better than commercial wine I can afford to buy. It was the Winexpert Eclipse Barossa Valley Shiraz. And the legs are really strong and many. Legs are not low/missing in any kit wine I have made, and I think legs is most about ABV?(not necessarily quality of the wine but high abv. What I think lack in most kit wines is tannin. They have less of that dry mouthfeel than many commersial wines. I have started to use extra tannin because of that.


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## crackermonkey (Apr 5, 2020)

FermentoSapiens said:


> I have not experienced any lack of nose in most kit wines I have made. In fact, the latest I made had really good nose and way better than commercial wine I can afford to buy. It was the Winexpert Eclipse Barossa Valley Shiraz. And the legs are really strong and many. Legs are not low/missing in any kit wine I have made, and I think legs is most about ABV?(not necessarily quality of the wine but high abv. What I think lack in most kit wines is tannin. They have less of that dry mouthfeel than many commersial wines. I have started to use extra tannin because of that.


The only wine I have that has any nose is that excact saa a me wine it took nine months to get there but now it’s great . What temperature do you ferment at ?


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## FermentoSapiens (Apr 6, 2020)

crackermonkey said:


> The only wine I have that has any nose is that excact saa a me wine it took nine months to get there but now it’s great . What temperature do you ferment at ?


I try to keep it at 21-22 c. When the fermentation is very active I stirr carefully when I have opened the lid to squeeze the grape bag, and it helps to get the temp back down from 23-24 c. White kits I try to ferment at about18 c in the basement.


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