# Planting and first year care



## ATX Red (Apr 16, 2022)

Hi all. About to order my first potted vinifera, and super nervous. The scion types and root stocks are well suited for the area. While there's a ton of info out there, sometimes it's difficult to find how those processes might change in the first year. So, thank you all so much for the help in advance!

- Any recommendations for a potting mix to use with the potted soil when it goes in the ground? I'm thinking something with decent nitrogen content to help kickstart things.

- Spraying schedule: How does this change in newly planted vines that will already have some green? Do you start going right away?

- Drip irrrigation: Where emittors would normally be placed, they wouldn't hit the initial roots that haven't spread out from the pot yet. How do vineyards handle watering freshly planted vines?


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## VinesnBines (Apr 16, 2022)

I usually plant dormant vines, however I have planted potted vines I raised from cuttings. 
First, I would not add potting soil to the hole or add any nitrogen. You want the plant to build roots not lots of vigorous vine. The planting instructions with dormant vines say NOT to fertilize or mulch the first year.

As for irrigation, you should be sure the vines get an inch of water per week for the first year. I didn’t bother with irrigation last year for my first year vines and even with a dry year, they survived. I didn’t get a lot of top growth but they should be tough. As long as the drip nozzle is close to the hole or uphill of the vine, it will be fine. I’m sure there will be planting instructions so be sure to read those.

Where are you and where did you order the vines?


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## VinesnBines (Apr 16, 2022)

Oh ;yes start spraying right away if you have green growth.


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## ATX Red (Apr 16, 2022)

Thanks. I'm in central TX (consistent low 80's at the moment). i was going to order from Novafine, but I have a couple options written down. Inventory is starting to get scarce though, so need to hurry!


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## VinesnBines (Apr 16, 2022)

Double A has a lot left. I got an email that they have more than anticipated. What do you want? They are great to work with and sell dormant vines. They sell certified ones. Nova vine is good too.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 16, 2022)

Here is the list.


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## ATX Red (Apr 16, 2022)

On their site, I can't tell what type their selling. Dormant roots? green potted? Something else?


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## VinesnBines (Apr 16, 2022)

Dormant 1 year vines. They don’t sell green potted.


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## ATX Red (Apr 16, 2022)

Oh, I think I’m too late in the season for dormant. I doubt they want to wake up to 85+F temps.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 17, 2022)

I would emphasize water for the roots to get established. Year one is root growth, you can forget fertilizer and potting mix, they will encourage confined roots.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 17, 2022)

It is your choice about dormant vs potted. Yesterday I finished planting a small plot of 90 dormant vinifera. We are expecting temperatures in the 80s by mid week in zone 7. I'm not at all concerned about stress on the dormant vines. Wednesday, I'm getting delivery of 248 dormant vines to be planted in the larger vineyard in zone 6. 

I assume since you have researched the appropriate rootstock and clones for your area, you have checked on planting recommendations. NovaVine is reputable so you should be fine.

How many vines are you planting; which varieties?


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## ATX Red (Apr 17, 2022)

Actually, looking through Double A, it looks like they're completely out of 1103p rootstock, so it's not really an option anyway. It seems like it will be the best for my high PH, high lime soil. 

Desired varieties are a cross between the wife's favorites and ones that grow well in TX, so Tempranillo, Mourvedre, Syrah, and a few others. I only have about 40 vine capacity at 6-foot spacing.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 17, 2022)

Push the vinifera to 3 or 4 foot spacing. The trend is for 3 foot between vines and 4 foot between rows. If you can manage without much automation go for the close spacing. I went with the 3/4 spacing with the small, 90 vine vinifera. 

I do 6 feet between vines and 10 foot rows with my hybrids. Since I have 1.5 going to 1.75 acres of hybrids, I'm doing the wider spacing. My husband insisted on 10 foot rows; good thing, we both have hit trellis posts with the tractors even at 10 feet.

Early in the year, Double A had Temranillo with 1103 rootstock. I passed on them because I wanted 101-14 or 3309. My second choice was Syrah but they didn't have that; I went with Barbera for the red vinifera.


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## balatonwine (Apr 18, 2022)

While I understand the desire to get something in the ground in the spring and see nice green leaves in a few weeks, personally, I think the best time to plant vines is in the late autumn, as dormant bare rooted plants. Over winter really lets their roots settle into the soil, and the undisturbed winter soil moisture really gets them off to a good start. Hope this helps.


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## toadie (Apr 18, 2022)

I agree fully with @balatonwine plus it has the added benefit of needing no or very little water. The problem is finding what you want in the fall or the quantity.


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 18, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Here is the list.



Holy cow, someone must have backed out on a large Sayval Blanc order.


ATX Red said:


> Oh, I think I’m too late in the season for dormant. I doubt they want to wake up to 85+F temps.


No problem planting dormant vines in 80 degree heat. I have to do it in Florida because by the time Double A ships, when it is warm enough for them to, it's already in the 80's here. I actually prefer this because there seems to be less transplanting shock. I've tried some green potted table grapes and noticed some transplant shock.

Unlike VinsenBines, I do give them some super triple phosphate and nothing else simply because it promotes good root growth.


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 18, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Push the vinifera to 3 or 4 foot spacing. The trend is for 3 foot between vines and 4 foot between rows. If you can manage without much automation go for the close spacing. I went with the 3/4 spacing with the small, 90 vine vinifera.
> 
> I do 6 feet between vines and 10 foot rows with my hybrids. Since I have 1.5 going to 1.75 acres of hybrids, I'm doing the wider spacing. My husband insisted on 10 foot rows; good thing, we both have hit trellis posts with the tractors even at 10 feet.
> 
> Early in the year, Double A had Temranillo with 1103 rootstock. I passed on them because I wanted 101-14 or 3309. My second choice was Syrah but they didn't have that; I went with Barbera for the red vinifera.


What hybrids do you grow?


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## VinesnBines (Apr 18, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> What hybrids do you grow?


I have several; primarily Traminette, Vidal Blanc, Chelois, and Baco Noir. I have smaller plantings of Chambercian, Cayuga White, Marchel Foch, Chardonel and Marquette. I have a smattering of others. I have a couple vinifera vines in that same location. 

I have so many different varieties because we only have two other commercial vineyards in a 50 to 75 mile radius. Most of these varieties are grown by the other vineyards. Also, in the mountains, just a few miles distance or feet of elevation will make a difference. I think I will settle on the four whites listed and three reds (Chelois, Chambercian and Bac Noir...though Baco better get it's act going. I've not had a lot of luck with Foch even though the closest vineyard to us is growing as a major variety. 

The jury is out on Marquette; no crop yet and the early bud break may be a deal breaker. We are having later and later frosts (mid May killer frosts and freezes).


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 18, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I have several; primarily Traminette, Vidal Blanc, Chelois, and Baco Noir. I have smaller plantings of Chambercian, Cayuga White, Marchel Foch, Chardonel and Marquette. I have a smattering of others. I have a couple vinifera vines in that same location.
> 
> I have so many different varieties because we only have two other commercial vineyards in a 50 to 75 mile radius. Most of these varieties are grown by the other vineyards. Also, in the mountains, just a few miles distance or feet of elevation will make a difference. I think I will settle on the four whites listed and three reds (Chelois, Chambercian and Bac Noir...though Baco better get it's act going. I've not had a lot of luck with Foch even though the closest vineyard to us is growing as a major variety.
> 
> The jury is out on Marquette; no crop yet and the early bud break may be a deal breaker. We are having later and later frosts (mid May killer frosts and freezes).


I purchased some grapes from some online nursery back when I was doing a feasibility study to see if I could do grapes in Florida, basically I wanted to see if I could effectively manage the fungal diseases in a high humidity environment and if 68 degrees average growing temp would work... I didn't want to grow Muskadines at all other than a couple for table eating. I cant remember who it was, but I ordered 6 Catawba but the leaves do not resemble that grape at all, and in fact, it produces a blue grape and the leaves look exactly like Chambercian, very beautiful plant and it's doing well with an average growing temp of 68 degrees. Obviously I'm not positive it is Chambercian but I haven't found anything else that matches that leaf so I'm 90% positive that's what it is.

There are a lot of really good hybrids out there that make really good wine. It's a shame that the marketing guru's in California have brainwashed the public into thinking if it is not a pure vinifera then it isn't worth drinking. I've made some great wine from Black Spanish that were my second trial variety, it makes a really interesting red off the skins because the flesh is pigmented. I have to stick with PD resistant varieties which is a shame but these Chambercian vines so far have been doing well. If they continue to do so, I may increase my plantings.

Why the 10' spacing? I get the tractor issue, I have the same problem but why are you choosing to do the 3-4 planting with the vinifera? You'll be mowing with a push mower if the weeds get deep. I have a large order coming of the Andy Walker releases next spring and I'm starting to get the trellises in now and I'm doing a 5-6 spacing and I'm thinking that's tight! I've seen that 3-4 spacing before but always figured it was someone getting a bit too carried away with an unrealistic production expectation.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 19, 2022)

The top vineyard consultants in Virginia suggest the 3/4 spacing. Since my vinifera plot has only 90 vines and is 24' by 54' on perfectly flat ground (40 foot elevation - zone 7), I decided to pack them in and yes, we will mow between the vines with a push mower.
Here is the plot Saturday morning, as I was putting in the second half.



In the main vineyard, 300 miles away to the Southwest mountains, (2100 feet elevation - zone 6 - average slope 17 degrees and max slope of 23 degrees) I went with 6 feet between the hybrids (4 feet for vinifera) and initially 9 feet between the rows. The PU will barely miss the trellis posts at 9 feet, so I agreed to 10 feet. Since we have now knocked over three posts in two years....
This picture was last summer:


The picture above is deceiving as to steepness. This snow picture from December 2020 gives you a better idea of the side sloop and steepness:



To ID your vines, I suggest you contact Lucie Morton; she is a top expert in _Ampelography_ (ID grapes by the leaf). She is also a huge advocate of the 3/4 spacing for vinifera.


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 19, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> The top vineyard consultants in Virginia suggest the 3/4 spacing. Since my vinifera plot has only 90 vines and is 24' by 54' on perfectly flat ground (40 foot elevation - zone 7), I decided to pack them in and yes, we will mow between the vines with a push mower.
> Here is the plot Saturday morning, as I was putting in the second half.
> 
> View attachment 87228
> ...


Thank you very much for the information. Your property looks lovely. I think I'm going to look onto that 3/4 spacing, land isn't getting any cheaper!


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## mljcpa (May 10, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> Why the 10' spacing? I get the tractor issue, I have the same problem but why are you choosing to do the 3-4 planting with the vinifera? You'll be mowing with a push mower if the weeds get deep. I have a large order coming of the Andy Walker releases next spring and I'm starting to get the trellises in now and I'm doing a 5-6 spacing and I'm thinking that's tight! I've seen that 3-4 spacing before but always figured it was someone getting a bit too carried away with an unrealistic production expectation.



Where were you able to fined the new Andy Walker vines? I would like to order some for East Texas for next spring. Thanks!


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## ATX Red (May 23, 2022)

So it's been about 9 days since arrival of 3 varieties. They spent a week inside at 70'f, and then a couple days where they were outside half the day in the shade. They've been sitting in their moist woodchips and and a bit of native soil. One variety has bud breaks everywhere and is ready to go. The other two varieties have done absolutely nothing. Do you think I should wait for some green on the last two before planting?


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## VinesnBines (May 23, 2022)

In Virginia we try to get the dormant vines in the ground as soon as possible. My protocol is to keep the box in a cool place (usually basement or cellar0. I open the box and make sure the wrappings are damp and cool. on planting day I soak the vines in a bucket, in the cellar for 12 hours and never more than 24 hours. I like to get them in the ground within a week of the nursery shipping day. E.g. first shipment of vines left the nursery on April 11, they arrived on April 13 and I had half in on April 15 and the other half on April 16. The second shipment left the nursery on April 18, they arrived on April 20 and I had the first vines in the ground on April 25 and the rest in by the 26th. I plant the vines and within a couple hours water with at least one gallon of water, then pray for rain.

I did have some that had broken bud by the time they were planted - that year we were almost two weeks past shipping before we were finished. The vines did fine but I was not happy they were leafing out.


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## ATX Red (May 23, 2022)

Right, if I was early in the season that's what I would do. At this point I'm in the mid 80's though, so I don't know if there's additional protocol for a longer acclimation period, or waiting for bud break if going into the ground at those temps.


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## VinesnBines (May 23, 2022)

I would think it more important to get the dormant vines in the ground rather than wait for bud break regardless of the temps. Dormant vines are asleep and temps are not as important as they are for green vines/plants. Once a plant is leafing out, they are far more sensitive to temperatures. My advice ,after 40 plus years of planting and growing nearly everything in every season, is get the dormant plant in the ground ASAP. A green plant needs far more babying and care.


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## ATX Red (May 25, 2022)

Great, Tempranillo went in the ground yesterday. The other two will go tomorrow. Should I be worried that's it been 10 days since arrival and no green yet on the other two varieties?
Also, when would you target starting the spray program? When they outgrow the vine shelter, or before that? Thanks again.


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## VinesnBines (May 25, 2022)

I would not be worried that no green showing. I would take that as a good sign that they are still dormant. I really think they should be dormant until in the ground no matter how hot the air temps. I put Vidal in on April 26 and last week a couple were still just starting to bud. We had temps in the 80 and near 90. The vines break when they are ready. Late breaking varieties are later coming out of dormancy when first planted.

I would start the spray as soon as you get buds or leaves. Best for you to get in the habit even though you may not have much disease in the tubes. They will be out the tops of the tubes quite soon.


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## ATX Red (May 26, 2022)

Awesome, thanks again. So I'll start spraying this weekend, but it brings up more questions - 

- I'm guessing I'm going to have new green buds every day for a while. Should I just check every vine every day or two and give them a spritz to anything that pops up?

- During this stage, if you spray something a couple days ago, but it has twice as much green growth now, how does that change your normal spray schedule?

- With the need to be able spray very small amounts, possibly every day or two, can you keep something like Mancozeb in a spray tank for an extended period of time? I think you would need to make a decent size batch to get everything measured correctly, but would only need a tiny bit each day.


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## VinesnBines (May 26, 2022)

Don’t be spraying every couple days. Get into a routine of every week to 10 days. Spray the vies ad whatever spray is left, dispose of it ad clea the sprayer. It this year but whe you get fruit, you wi have to stop using mancozeb 66 days before harvest. That was by the Ed of Jue you probably will have to switch to captan.


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## ATX Red (Jun 3, 2022)

OK, first spray time. I'm reading the Mancozeb label and am utterly lost on mixing a batch. 

".88 to 2.35oz per 1000ft." is all the help I'm given. I'm guessing the amount of water you use to mix it is variable, as long as you're using that much product per 1000ft. However, if you're spraying a first-year vine, there's going to be a 100X difference in what you need to cover compared to a 4-year old with a huge canopy. How can one rate be applied to such different amounts of growth?

I'm spraying <40 vines that are just starting to get half way up their shelters, so I thought I would just start with a small spray bottle. I'm completely lost on how to mix this for the bottle though, for how much growth I have. Any guidance would be really appreciated! Thank you.


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## Cynewulf (Jun 3, 2022)

ATX Red said:


> OK, first spray time. I'm reading the Mancozeb label and am utterly lost on mixing a batch.
> 
> ".88 to 2.35oz per 1000ft." is all the help I'm given. I'm guessing the amount of water you use to mix it is variable, as long as you're using that much product per 1000ft. However, if you're spraying a first-year vine, there's going to be a 100X difference in what you need to cover compared to a 4-year old with a huge canopy. How can one rate be applied to such different amounts of growth?
> 
> I'm spraying <40 vines that are just starting to get half way up their shelters, so I thought I would just start with a small spray bottle. I'm completely lost on how to mix this for the bottle though, for how much growth I have. Any guidance would be really appreciated! Thank you.


I mix 1 teaspoon of mancozeb per gallon of water in case that helps. Just mist the vines with it; don’t worry about the application dose beyond that.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 3, 2022)

So I have 90 new vines and although my spacing is three feet between the vines, let’s assume that they are four feet apart so that is 360 feet or roughly 1/3 of 1000 feet. Since you have 40 vines you will need about 1/6 of an ounce mixed in about a quart of water. A dry ounce is two tablespoons so I would suggest one teaspoon in a quart of water. It may not take that much or it may take a little more.

Does that make sense? Someone else may venture to tell you that I’m wrong so let’s see if you get a better answer.

I was going with the lowest dose for caution.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 3, 2022)

Cynewulf posted as I was typing. Either dose will not be too much. You will get the hang of it soon.


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## ChuckD (Jun 3, 2022)

I have 30 new vines in the ground with buds just starting to break and I’m planting the final 25 tomorrow. Blue grow tubes will be installed this weekend. What type of spray regime do you recommend for new bare root vines?

I’m in NE WIsconsin and it’s a new vineyard. So no history of grapes on this ground.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 3, 2022)

I suggest starting a spray regime of Mancozeb and Neem oil or Mancozeb and myclobutanil. Start spraying when the leaves appear and spray every 10 to 14 days. If you are planting red French Am hybrids, do not use sulfur. Next year if you plan on any grapes, switch from Mancozeb to Captan in early to mid July. Mancozeb has a pre harvest interval of 66days; meaning you shouldn’t harvest until 66 days after the last Mancozeb spray.

When the Japanese beetles arrive, I add Sevin in the mix. I mix everything in the same spray tank.

It is good to train yourself to spray. Once you get in the habit it is easy to keep on schedule.


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## ChuckD (Jun 3, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I suggest starting a spray regime of Mancozeb and Neem oil or Mancozeb and myclobutanil. Start spraying when the leaves appear and spray every 10 to 14 days. If you are planting red French Am hybrids, do not use sulfur. Next year if you plan on any grapes, switch from Mancozeb to Captan in early to mid July. Mancozeb has a pre harvest interval of 66days; meaning you shouldn’t harvest until 66 days after the last Mancozeb spray.
> 
> When the Japanese beetles arrive, I add Sevin in the mix. I mix everything in the same spray tank.
> 
> It is good to train yourself to spray. Once you get in the habit it is easy to keep on schedule.


I have Brianna and Marquette along with two seedless Mars.

I have read no grapes until year three. And then very limited. Can I sneak a few In earlier?


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## VinesnBines (Jun 3, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I have Brianna and Marquette along with two seedless Mars.
> 
> I have read no grapes until year three. And then very limited.


Some people try to get a crop in the second year. Late frosts made that choice for me in 2020 and 2021.

I think the vines are stronger if they have at least three years growth before attempting to bear a crop.


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## ChuckD (Jun 15, 2022)

So my Petite Pearl have been leafed out in the tubes for about 12 days and the Marquette are just starting. I have some mancozeb arriving this week. I’ll give them their first spray this weekend. 

I already see some grape clusters forming on the PP! Do I leave them or should I take the grow tubes off so I can pinch them off? They are already getting bushy enough that it will not be easy putting the tubes back on!


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## VinesnBines (Jun 16, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> So my Petite Pearl have been leafed out in the tubes for about 12 days and the Marquette are just starting. I have some mancozeb arriving this week. I’ll give them their first spray this weekend.
> 
> I already see some grape clusters forming on the PP! Do I leave them or should I take the grow tubes off so I can pinch them off? They are already getting bushy enough that it will not be easy putting the tubes back on!


Try to pinch them off as best you can. I know it is hard with grow tubes and you will miss some. Use your own judgement about the grow tubes. I had to pull them off some o my first year vines to spray and kill the Japanese beetles. Some vines are nearly destroyed and others untouched.

Anyway, I believe leaving clusters on young vines will weaken them. Don't sweat it but try to pinch them off.


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## ChuckD (Jun 20, 2022)

Cynewulf said:


> I mix 1 teaspoon of mancozeb per gallon of water in case that helps. Just mist the vines with it; don’t worry about the application dose beyond that.


So I ordered Manzate Pro-Stick and the directions call for 1.5 to 4.0 lbs/acre. What would I mix up for spraying my baby vines? They are still in the grow tubes and show no signs of disease.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 21, 2022)

I suggest between a teaspoon to a tablespoon per gallon. How many vines do you have? 

It is easier to calculate when you have grown vines and know how much spray you need for each spray. If you have a quarter acre of vines, you use a pound max in however much water you need to spray the vines. For baby vines I go light so you could manage wit a teaspoon per gallon.

For example, I have 1.12 acres of three and four year old vines. I have a 55 gallon sprayer on my tractor. It takes two and 1/2 tanks to spray 1.12 acres. To keep it fairly simple, I divided four pounds by 137.5 gallons or by 2.5 tanks and decided that I needed 25.6 ounces or 1.6 pounds per tank.


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## ChuckD (Jun 21, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I suggest between a teaspoon to a tablespoon per gallon. How many vines do you have?
> 
> It is easier to calculate when you have grown vines and know how much spray you need for each spray. If you have a quarter acre of vines, you use a pound max in however much water you need to spray the vines. For baby vines I go light so you could manage wit a teaspoon per gallon.
> 
> For example, I have 1.12 acres of three and four year old vines. I have a 55 gallon sprayer on my tractor. It takes two and 1/2 tanks to spray 1.12 acres. To keep it fairly simple, I divided four pounds by 137.5 gallons or by 2.5 tanks and decided that I needed 25.6 ounces or 1.6 pounds per tank.


Thanks. I have 55 vines. All in grow tubes. I planned on using a spray bottle so I probably won’t go through a gallon. 

I wish they would just list a concentration that you would use to wet the vines for full coverage.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 21, 2022)

The garden products - Bionide brand - does list for a gallon...the ag size gives pounds or ounces per acre. On the other hand, I used the garden size Sevin and had to figure out how to use in my 55 gallon sprayer. I finally calculated like I was using a garden hose sprayer. That made it much easier.


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