# Malbec Must, Yee Ha! Any issues?



## Busabill (Oct 25, 2015)

Hey folks, so I just got a 5 gallon bucket of Malbec Must from WGD. Yee ha!!! The measurements are SG 1.116 with a PH of 3.69 and TA of .52. I know that's a little low for TA and a little high for PH. I'm thinking of adding 6 tsp of TA which should get it to around .76 TA after studying the more wine guide. this will also bring down the PH into more of a stable range. Does this sound about right to everyone? Do you think that's adding too much TA? 

Thanks and cheers!


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## sdelli (Oct 25, 2015)

I believe you mean Tartaric Acid? Yes... That is too much! I would add no more then 20-30 grams


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## Busabill (Oct 25, 2015)

sdelli said:


> I believe you mean Tartaric Acid? Yes... That is too much! I would add no more then 20-30 grams



OK sdelli, it sounded like a bit much to me as well. So in the end I added 5tsp, which in the end is about 25 g. Hopefully everything will come out good!


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## JohnT (Oct 26, 2015)

Ditto on it being too much. a good TA for reds is .6 to .70. I usually shoot for the low end of that (.60). and do an additional adjustment to suit my tastes.

You really should add by weight, but in general a level teaspoon of tartaric acid will raise the TA by (.15). So for your 5 gallons, I would only add 2.5 level teaspoons to arrive very close to .60.


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## Wild Duk (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm about 7 days into my fermentation of Malbec grapes from WGD. I added about 40g of tartaric but I also added some water to bring down the brix a tad. I didn't measure TA but after addition, PH was 3.4


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## Busabill (Oct 27, 2015)

I am on day 3 and bubbling away. 40 grams? That also seems like a lot I added 5 level teaspoons which is about 25 grams I believe. What ending tartaric acid number were you looking for? Just curious. I did not add any water though. And yes the briix was a little high I just went for it.  Cheers!


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## ColemanM (Oct 27, 2015)

I added 40 grams, but I had 2 buckets. 20g each with about 3 liters total water. It ended up at 1.106 and fermented to .994 last I checked. Undergoing mlf as we speak so not sulfited. Hopefully will hit .990. Used bm45 tastes amazing. Just pressed the petite sirah the other day. Another soon to be amazing wine!!


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## Busabill (Oct 27, 2015)

Ah two buckets that makes sense! Curious about two things as I am still learning. What kind of pH meter do you use? I tried using the strips and I could not seem to get an accurate reading with them. Also what kind of water have you added? Regular tap water? And was a petite Syrah also frozen must from WGD?


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## ErikM (Oct 27, 2015)

"WGD"?
Did you get them shipped, and if so, mind sharing the shipping cost?


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## ColemanM (Oct 27, 2015)

Yup WineGrapesDirect. Com $30 per pail shipping. Unfortunately the cost of doing business if you live in Minnesota. I have not tested the numbers yet. I went with what they stated the numbers were and an email response from Michael stating the reason he sent 20g with the pail. Unbelievable customer service! I plan on checking the numbers, unfortunately I have to wait till after mlf because I hear it could throw the members off IIRC. Both taste amazing and I have decided to save the money I would spend on kits and buy more frozen grapes. I have a Hanna Ph meter by the way. 
one's a kit and the other isn't. Guess which is which. [emoji16]


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## ColemanM (Oct 27, 2015)

I use bottled water for winemaking. Not distilled though.


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## Busabill (Oct 27, 2015)

Thanks and yes they have great customer service Michael will take care of you. I'm lucky that I live in Sacramento California and was able to pick them up myself from us cold storage where they store then. But still outstanding customer service! And judging by how my Malbec looks the right is the kit.


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## Busabill (Oct 27, 2015)

Oh ok bottled. Not acidulated? I have not had to add water yet but I may need to as I watch the malbec closely.


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## ColemanM (Oct 27, 2015)

Technically I added the acid to the water, in turn acidulating it. The volume of the water plus the anticipated yield of must dictates the amount of acid. Yup. The one on the right is a kit. The left is the petite sirah.


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## JohnT (Oct 29, 2015)

Coleman, 

I like that method also. My thinking is that adding the acid to the measured water, then adding the water to the must should be less stressful to the yeast than adding concentrated acid directly to the must.


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## heatherd (Oct 31, 2015)

jmforem said:


> "WGD"?
> Did you get them shipped, and if so, mind sharing the shipping cost?



Another place is M&M (juicegrape.com) and they have frozen juice and frozen must (crushed grapes) all year long. 

The frozen must from M&M or WGD are perfect for people who want to work with grapes out of season, don't want to mess with crushing, or don't have access to anything local to them geographically. Plus they give you a 6 gallon must every time, so it is entirely predictable and reliable.

For a red you would get a frozen pail of must; you could possibly reduce your cost by doing a double batch of red with (1) frozen must and (1) frozen juice. The toro negro cab sauv frozen grapes are $119.00. Their frozen cab sauv juice is $75.00. So you could do a 12 gallon batch for $194.00 + tax + shipping. That is pretty cost-effective. I would conferment and mix the juice and grapes together.

I did a batch similarly where I used (1) frozen must from M&M and (1) fresh juice pail from Chile. That worked out to be $119 + tax + shipping and $60 for the fresh pail (no shipping from Harford Vineyard). I cofermented the grapes and juice. The wine is really getting good now! A double batch is also a great way to beef up your back stock in your cellar.

So if you wanted to do a white you could just get a frozen pail of juice. Those are $75 to $150 + tax + shipping. It's an easy jump from a kit for someone who wants to make a white. Especially if you want to do a Chardonnay and take it through MLF, that can only be done with juice.

Anyone who makes this jump would need to have on hand the chemicals that are used in kits (yeast, kmeta, oak, sorbate only if back-sweetening), plus pectic enzyme, tartaric acid, clarifiers, tannins, and MLF culture. Testing supplies are also needed for at least pH and MLF, whether in the form of strips or a meter.

I know folks think that making wine from grapes is a more expensive route but I find the opposite to be true, especially when using fresh grapes and juice, and more so when using juice pail + lug of grapes for reds. I can make a batch of fresh white pail for $60 and a batch of fresh red for $115 with a pail + lug of grapes; that's two batches for the price of one high-end kit. Nothing beats the control I have over the process.

All-grape winemaking can be more expensive but it depends on the cost of your grapes. If you grow them or get a good deal, it could be super cheap. Plus there are wine kits that are $200+ for 6 gallons. When you get to that point, all-grape starts to look affordable. Cheap isn't the only measurement, anyway. The point is to make something enjoyable and that you are proud of.

I provide the costs just so that folks have a basis for making their own decisions - rather than an assumption that kits are the most affordable way to make grape wine. I find that not to be true. 

They are certainly convenient and a good way to learn the process with controlled variables, and I still use them. But I am making the very most of fall and spring harvest, and just doing a few kits in the off season, now that I have access to fresh grapes and juice.

Best of luck!
Heather


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## Busabill (Nov 1, 2015)

Very nice write-up Heather. Where are you located if I might ask? I too find out that wine from grapes can be very inexpensive. This harvest I got 100 pounds of Cabernet for $50, and 100 pounds of Zinfandel for $50, that's a really good value! But I do like the frozen must from WGD, and the Malbec I'm doing from there is coming along nicely. I would like to find a juice bucket quickly to add to the malbec skins once I press them, I think this would be a great value as well! Any recommendations on which juice bucket may be nice with the Malbec skins? As I've never combined skins and just like this. you mentioned Hartford vineyard. Where is that? I'm in Northern California. Have a nice Sunday! And cheers!


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## ColemanM (Nov 1, 2015)

A blend I often see is a Malbec Syrah (Australian) or cab. Malbec (French/Californian). I made a juice bucket from Luva Bella three years ago from Midwest supplies. They were pre balanced and yeast was already in there. All three varieties, cab, merlot and Syrah tasted exactly the same and in my opinion, were worse than kits. I've never tried Chilean or any juice bucket since. I'm also getting the run around from M&M for the 4 frozen musts I ordered on 9-2 so I'm kinda salty with them. I would really like to know your view, heather, on the juice buckets you get. Pre balanced or not? Quality or not. I've made my last kit ever with my pressed petite sirah skins from WGD (LE super Tuscan from WE) due to the fact I can't stand kit taste (Luva Bella had it). I love the idea of stretching the skins but gave reservations. Please help. Sorry for the long winded write up. Between the fire, cigar, drinks and two kids wanting to toss cardboard in the fire, this has taken 20 minutes to write. Umm what was my point again? [emoji12]


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## heatherd (Nov 1, 2015)

Busabill said:


> Very nice write-up Heather. Where are you located if I might ask? I too find out that wine from grapes can be very inexpensive. This harvest I got 100 pounds of Cabernet for $50, and 100 pounds of Zinfandel for $50, that's a really good value! But I do like the frozen must from WGD, and the Malbec I'm doing from there is coming along nicely. I would like to find a juice bucket quickly to add to the malbec skins once I press them, I think this would be a great value as well! Any recommendations on which juice bucket may be nice with the Malbec skins? As I've never combined skins and just like this. you mentioned Hartford vineyard. Where is that? I'm in Northern California. Have a nice Sunday! And cheers!



I am in Maryland. Harford Vineyard is north of Baltimore.

Sounds like you got a good deal on your grapes!

Maybe a cab sauv bucket?


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## heatherd (Nov 1, 2015)

ColemanM said:


> A blend I often see is a Malbec Syrah (Australian) or cab. Malbec (French/Californian). I made a juice bucket from Luva Bella three years ago from Midwest supplies. They were pre balanced and yeast was already in there. All three varieties, cab, merlot and Syrah tasted exactly the same and in my opinion, were worse than kits. I've never tried Chilean or any juice bucket since. I'm also getting the run around from M&M for the 4 frozen musts I ordered on 9-2 so I'm kinda salty with them. I would really like to know your view, heather, on the juice buckets you get. Pre balanced or not? Quality or not. I've made my last kit ever with my pressed petite sirah skins from WGD (LE super Tuscan from WE) due to the fact I can't stand kit taste (Luva Bella had it). I love the idea of stretching the skins but gave reservations. Please help. Sorry for the long winded write up. Between the fire, cigar, drinks and two kids wanting to toss cardboard in the fire, this has taken 20 minutes to write. Umm what was my point again? [emoji12] View attachment 25598



The buckets I get from Harford are not pre-balanced, are not inoculated, and seem to be high-quality. I have purchased Chilean, Italian, Californian, and Maryland grapes and juice from them. I have been entirely satisfied, and count myself lucky to be within a reasonable drive to their vineyard.

I had a good experience with M&M as well, but only used them once. I suspect they will come through for you in the end. I really liked the quality of wine from their must. Those are not balanced or inoculated, to my knowledge. Given that you're in Minnesota, these guys and WGD may be your best source for grapes and juice.

Never bought from Luva Bella because they aren't close to me geographically. That is strange that it was low quality.


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## Wild Duk (Nov 1, 2015)

I just pressed by Malbec from WGD. SG.998. 
I added all the skins to a pail of Amarone I picked up last week. Not sure if it's a good blend, but we will see. If anything it will make an OK juice pail much better. I know this pail is inoculated with 1118, but I'm hoping the BDX yeast from the grape skins actually takes over the ferment.


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## Busabill (Nov 2, 2015)

ColemanM I too am done with kits...there is certainly an off taste for me. Nice setup you have there...what's in your glass? That is a great color! Looks like a sweet wine or whiskey of some sort! I just had some port from V Satui. Man that stuff Is good! Perhaps I will order another frozen must bucket (the storage place for WGD is within driving distance) and add the malbec skins to that! That may make something crazy and fun!! I'm just not sure about a juice bucket as Ive never used one and I can't find one within driving distance anyway.


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## JohnT (Nov 2, 2015)

Busabill said:


> ColemanM I too am done with kits...there is certainly an off taste for me. Nice setup you have there...what's in your glass? That is a great color! Looks like a sweet wine or whiskey of some sort! I just had some port from V Satui. Man that stuff Is good! Perhaps I will order another frozen must bucket (the storage place for WGD is within driving distance) and add the malbec skins to that! That may make something crazy and fun!! I'm just not sure about a juice bucket as Ive never used one and I can't find one within driving distance anyway.


 

Coleman, 

You simply got it kid! Fire, Cigar, and (Brandy?). That is what I call "Smelling the Roses"!

I highly recommend that you folks give fresh grapes a try. If at all possible, you will find that it is cheaper in the long run. Not including equipment costs, wine costs me about $4.50 per bottle. 

What I really like is that I feel that I have more control over more aspects of the wine making process. I can also QC the grapes (or sort them), which I can not do with frozen must of juice pails.


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## heatherd (Nov 2, 2015)

Busabill said:


> ColemanM I too am done with kits...there is certainly an off taste for me. Nice setup you have there...what's in your glass? That is a great color! Looks like a sweet wine or whiskey of some sort! I just had some port from V Satui. Man that stuff Is good! Perhaps I will order another frozen must bucket (the storage place for WGD is within driving distance) and add the malbec skins to that! That may make something crazy and fun!! I'm just not sure about a juice bucket as Ive never used one and I can't find one within driving distance anyway.



Mmmmmm, V Satui has a madeira that the hubby and I bought when we were there, and still talk about it. Yummy stuff.


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## heatherd (Nov 2, 2015)

Busabill said:


> ColemanM I too am done with kits...there is certainly an off taste for me. Nice setup you have there...what's in your glass? That is a great color! Looks like a sweet wine or whiskey of some sort! I just had some port from V Satui. Man that stuff Is good! Perhaps I will order another frozen must bucket (the storage place for WGD is within driving distance) and add the malbec skins to that! That may make something crazy and fun!! I'm just not sure about a juice bucket as Ive never used one and I can't find one within driving distance anyway.



You could order from juicegrape.com if you want a frozen juice bucket.


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## ColemanM (Nov 2, 2015)

its my "go to" Cognac.


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## Busabill (Nov 2, 2015)

Haha I have been meaning to try that!


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## Busabill (Nov 2, 2015)

heatherd said:


> Mmmmmm, V Satui has a madeira that the hubby and I bought when we were there, and still talk about it. Yummy stuff.



Oh yes we bought some of the Madeira while we were there too. good stuff!!!


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## jsiddall (Nov 4, 2015)

JohnT said:


> I highly recommend that you folks give fresh grapes a try. If at all possible, you will find that it is cheaper in the long run. Not including equipment costs, wine costs me about $4.50 per bottle.
> 
> What I really like is that I feel that I have more control over more aspects of the wine making process. I can also QC the grapes (or sort them), which I can not do with frozen must of juice pails.



More control? yes. Better tasting? yes. Cheaper? no way.

Fresh grapes are expensive here. If they aren't for you then I envy you! 3 lugs of CV stuff here start at $150 and go up from there.

100 lb CV frozen must starts at $200+$60 shipping and goes up from there.

MLB is about $30+ shipped depending on strain

A couple of malic tests are probably $10+

Yeast, additives, oak etc. are another $10+

So 6 gal finished wine from fresh starts around $200 and from frozen around $310 That's about $7+ per bottle for fresh and $10+ per bottle for frozen not including equipment. Moving out of CV might double those costs.

The most expensive kits at my LHBS are CC Showcase and RJS En Primeur. Both can be had for about $130 or just over $4 per bottle.

One alternative I just tried this fall to cut costs is a fresh juice bucket with skins from Festa Juice. These are under $100/6 gal finished or just over $3 per bottle. I cannot comment on how the bucket on its would have been because I added about 20 lb pressed skins to it, but early on all indications are that it will end up much better than a kit, and there is obviously no KT. It does seem a bit thin compared to the all grape wine though. I suppose you get what you pay for.


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## JohnT (Nov 4, 2015)

jsiddall said:


> More control? yes. Better tasting? yes. Cheaper? no way.
> 
> 3 lugs of CV stuff here start at $150 and go up from there.
> 
> ...


 
For me, the breakdown is as follows.. 

For my dealer, a high end price would be (per lug) $38-$42. Most years it is much lower and sometimes the price below the $30 per lug price) So, my 3 lug batch comes to about $114 - $126 on the high end. 

This should yield about 7.5 gallons or about 29 bottles of the finished stuff. This brings the grape cost to $3.93 to 4.34 per bottle. 

For me, there is no shipping. I pick them up from my local distributor (about a 45 minute drive). 

An acid test kit ($7.95) will perform close to 20 tests. This cost, then is about .40 per test. If you test twice per batch, this works out to .80 per batch (or about .03 per bottle) 

Yeast 2 (pkts) runs about $2.50 per batch (or about .09 per bottle) 

Oak is about $6.00 or (.21 per bottle) 

A pound of k-meta works out to about $8.00. A pound will be spread out over (at least) 5 or 6 batches when you also factor in the washing of equipment and bottles. This works out to .045 per bottle.

MLB costs me about $30 for a 66 gallon batch or 8 three lug batches. This translates to 3.75 per batch (or .13 per bottle) 

so... 

grapes 3.93 - 4.34
test kit .03 
yeast: .09
Nutrient .02
acid(avg) .02
Oak .21
kmeta .04 
MLB .13

So, my Total cost per bottle is $4.47 to $4.88 (and most years even cheaper than that). With the exception of what I call specialty grapes (imported or hard to find), I have never had a per bottle cost top $6. 

Of course this is due to my location. I live in the NYC area where there are a TON of good, solid, old world folks (and thus a big market for all things winemaking related). I also have a good relationship with my distributor (over 25 years).

In my post, what I was trying to do is to simply put forward the notion. Even if you have to drive a long way, perhaps it will be worth it. Even if you have to pay for shipping, perhaps you could work out a deal where it will be worth while.

A I am saying is that worth looking into...


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## Busabill (Mar 29, 2016)

So an update on the mall Malbec. I pulled it out of MLF two weeks ago or so which means it was in MLFfor almost four and a half months! Partially because I had no way to test it but mostly because I was busy with a military retirement etc. I was tasting along the way though and let me tell you it tastes amazing! Taste like a 40 or $50 bottle already, of course I am biased though. And I was afraid that I'd added too much TA to it but it doesn't seem like it, it tastes amazing! I just oaked the three gallons with about one and a half ounces of French Oak so it is now starting to age in oak. Really looking forward to this Malbec from WGD and wishing I had bought two pills of it!


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## ColemanM (Mar 29, 2016)

I also finally dosed with kmeta my (4) pails. Sitting now in two 6.5 gallon carboys. One getting 4 oz of medium French. The other 4 oz American medium toasted. One carboy is two months older, and used a ratchet press, the other used a blichmann wineasy. The first is more astringent in tannins but both are very dry. Can't wait til 2018 when I can put these in rotation. [emoji24]


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## Busabill (Mar 30, 2016)

Coleman, awesome! How long will you oak it? 2018 is a long way off! I'm not sure I can wait that long. What are your plans for it through the aging process? I really need to get a press, that will make it all so much easier!!


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