# Skip Secondary Fermentation?



## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

I've got a Winexpert World Vineyard Pinot Noir juice kit ready to rack after 7 days of fermentation. Actually, no signs of fermentation in the last two days.

Initial SG = 1.084
Reading yesterday = .992
Sample was very clear and almost tasted good.

Here's my dilemma: The instructions say to rack into secondary until SG =<1.010 Well, my SG right now is .992 and clear.

My thought was to rack into carboy, do the stabilizing and clearing for bulk aging x 2months.

BUT, the instructions also say that on the third racking, that the sediment is stirred back into suspension during degassing and then with the inclusion of the metabisulphite and sorbate.

So, my thought is to skip the "secondary fermentation racking" and proceed directly to the stabilizing and clearing step for bulk aging.

Here's the instructions: http://www.winexpert.com/pdfs/kit-instructions/world-vineyard_eng.pdf

What say you oenologists?

Bob


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## ffemt128 (Feb 24, 2011)

I would rack into secondary allow to sit as additional sediment will still fall out. Degass, stabilize and add clarifiers in a couple weeks. Allow to sit 2-3 weeks then rack into clean carboy then age X amount of time. 

Basically I would still more or less follow the directions for time references even though your wine has already fermented dry. I would not be in a hurry to process this through just because your sg is already .992.


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## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

ffemt128 said:


> I would rack into secondary allow to sit as additional sediment will still fall out. Degass, stabilize and add clarifiers in a couple weeks. Allow to sit 2-3 weeks then rack into clean carboy then age X amount of time.
> 
> Basically I would still more or less follow the directions for time references even though your wine has already fermented dry. I would not be in a hurry to process this through just because your sg is already .992.



I agree, Doug, but am concerned about the instructions regarding the need for sediment to be stirred up at the final stage. If I rack into a secondary right now, I'll be leaving the primary fermentation sediment behind. Would there be that much more sediment in the secondary after a couple of weeks?

Bob


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## ffemt128 (Feb 24, 2011)

vinividivici said:


> I agree, Doug, but am concerned about the instructions regarding the need for sediment to be stirred up at the final stage. If I rack into a secondary right now, I'll be leaving the primary fermentation sediment behind. Would there be that much more sediment in the secondary after a couple of weeks?
> 
> Bob



Leaving the primary sediment behind, there won't likely be much sediment in secondary. That being said, after you add the clarifiers and allow to settle out, you will be surprised what falls. After adding the clarifier, allow to sit 2-3 weeks to allow sediment to compact then rack into clean carboy.

There shouldn't be any concern with stirring back in the secondary sediment as this should be minimal and the clarifier will drop it back out quickly.


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## winemaker_3352 (Feb 24, 2011)

I agree with Doug - as kits generally won't have as much sediment fall out as you would if you were using grapes or fruits.


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## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

Jon & Doug,

I really appreciate the rapid replies to this. But I've also read posts on the forum that say to follow the instructions exactly as the kits have been designed for optimal results.

I posted the link to the instructions, but this is the part on Step 3 that concerned me re the sediment issue:

"Winexpert kits require the sediment to be stirred back
into suspension. Racking the wine off the sediment prior
to fining may permanently prevent clearing. Please be
sure to stir all of the sediment up from the bottom."

If I don't have any (or very little), do you think the end product will still be as good? Another kit from a different company said nothing about degassing, stabilizing, etc. It gets confusing, especially when the instructions for a particular kit line are "one size fits all".

Thanks again.

Bob


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## ffemt128 (Feb 24, 2011)

vinividivici said:


> Jon & Doug,
> 
> I really appreciate the rapid replies to this. But I've also read posts on the forum that say to follow the instructions exactly as the kits have been designed for optimal results.
> 
> ...




Your end product will be just as good. Allow it to bulk age as you originally planned and you won't be disappointed.


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## Danml (Feb 24, 2011)

The Instructions.......Do NOT rack the wine before stabilising. Winexpert kits require the sediment to be stirred back into suspenion. Racking the wine off the sediment prior to fining may permanently prevent clearing. Please be sure to stir all of the sediment up from the bottom.

After 12 kits complete...on my 13th, I have not had any trouble with any kit.
i was told when I purchased my first kit to follow the instructions step by step and you can't go wrong. So far that has held true.

Dan


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## ffemt128 (Feb 24, 2011)

Danml said:


> The Instructions.......Do NOT rack the wine before stabilising. Winexpert kits require the sediment to be stirred back into suspenion. Racking the wine off the sediment prior to fining may permanently prevent clearing. Please be sure to stir all of the sediment up from the bottom.
> 
> After 12 kits complete...on my 13th, I have not had any trouble with any kit.
> i was told when I purchased my first kit to follow the instructions step by step and you can't go wrong. So far that has held true.
> ...



I've done wine expert kits both ways and have not had issues either way. There will still be sediment fall out if the heavy lees are left behind from primary to secondary transfer. After adding claifier even more will fall out.


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## Danml (Feb 24, 2011)

ffemt128 said:


> I've done wine expert kits both ways and have not had issues either way. There will still be sediment fall out if the heavy lees are left behind from primary to secondary transfer. After adding claifier even more will fall out.



Understood. But staying with the detailed instructions eliminates any confusion or questions, especially when doing your first few kits. JMHO


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## WeLoveCab (Feb 24, 2011)

I just had this exact situation on my Merlot and Pino Noir... I racked out of the primary to secondary, let sit for a couple days, then proceeded to Stabalize and Clarify... The reason I moved forward was since the wine had fermented dry in Primary there would be no CO2 producton to push O2 off the top of the wine. So I did just as the directions indicated, stired my sediment into suspension, added all the stuff, degassed and top up.


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## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

WeLoveCab said:


> I just had this exact situation on my Merlot and Pino Noir... I racked out of the primary to secondary, let sit for a couple days, then proceeded to Stabalize and Clarify... The reason I moved forward was since the wine had fermented dry in Primary there would be no CO2 producton to push O2 off the top of the wine. So I did just as the directions indicated, stired my sediment into suspension, added all the stuff, degassed and top up.



So, to understand, you did have some sediment after the secondary was done? That was my primary concern, again due to the instructions. I found it counter-intuitive to stir up sediment when we are normally racking OFF of it. 

Thanks,
Bob


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## WeLoveCab (Feb 24, 2011)

vinividivici said:


> So, to understand, you did have some sediment after the secondary was done? That was my primary concern, again due to the instructions. I found it counter-intuitive to stir up sediment when we are normally racking OFF of it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob




Yea, I racked from Primary to Secondary as normal pulling over the normal amount of sediment. Let sit for a couple days checking each day to make sure fermentation was really done. Then I proceeded with step 3.


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## Lurker (Feb 24, 2011)

Vinividivici; I found it counter-intuitive to stir up sediment when we are normally racking OFF of it. 

Thanks,
Bob[/QUOTE]

Bob, Google Battanage


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## WeLoveCab (Feb 24, 2011)

Lurker said:


> Vinividivici; I found it counter-intuitive to stir up sediment when we are normally racking OFF of it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob



Bob, Google Battanage[/QUOTE]


My opinion: I think they have you stir it all up so that the clarifiers can bond to them.


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## robie (Feb 24, 2011)

The particular (single) clearing agent WineXpert utilizes, requires sediment to be present. If there is no sediment, there will be bonding issues. Without sediment, the bigger stuff will still fall to the bottom, but you could be left with a hard to get rid of haziness. 

For your WineXpert kit, you can't go by instructions from non-Winexpert kits, as they utilize different clearing agents.

You will still produce some sediment during secondary. That should be enough to clear properly. Just be sure to stir it up well when you add the clarifier.


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## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

Lurker said:


> Vinividivici; I found it counter-intuitive to stir up sediment when we are normally racking OFF of it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bob



Bob, Google Battanage[/QUOTE]

Lurker, that was VERY informative. But, it sounds like their referring to grape wines and not plain juice kits? Thanks for the tip!

Bob


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## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

robie said:


> The particular (single) clearing agent WineXpert utilizes, requires sediment to be present. If there is no sediment, there will be bonding issues. Without sediment, the bigger stuff will still fall to the bottom, but you could be left with a hard to get rid of haziness.
> 
> For your WineXpert kit, you can't go by instructions from non-Winexpert kits, as they utilize different clearing agents.
> 
> You will still produce some sediment during secondary. That should be enough to clear properly. Just be sure to stir it up well when you add the clarifier.



Robie,,

Thanks for your post, as it relates directly to the WineXpert kit.

Bob


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## vinividivici (Feb 24, 2011)

I've since racked to secondary, following the kit instructions, and also allowed some of the fine lees to transfer at the end. The batch looked great and also pretty clear at this stage. 

It will stay in the secondary for ten days, per the instructions. Then, it will get the degassing, additives, etc, for racking to the carboy.

This turned into quite a discussion, and seems to illustrate the differences in kit instructions.

Thanks to all who've posted!

Cheers!

Bob


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## Westerman (Nov 15, 2013)

What happens when you add in the clarifyers right after primary fermentation


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