# Improving my Wine



## ckassotis (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi all,

So I entered my first two wines in the MVWS Wine Competition this year. They were my first two wines I have made, a Concord and a Riesling, both Alexander's. I think the Concord was anyway, might have been another brand, but canned concentrate for sure. 

At any rate, I got my actual score sheets back today from these wines and wanted to share some of the comments and hopefully get some feedback from you guys as to how I can address some of them going forward! Definitely some productive feedback I thought. I think anyway, haha. 

Okay so wine #1 - Johannisberg Riesling, sweet Vinifera

-All judges loved the clarity and the sparkle, remarked on the color. 
-The biggest complaint was the nose - two remarked that it was a vinegared smell, they all agreed that it was very unpleasant. One said not vinegared, remarked it was a sulfury odor. 
-However, they all marked me well for taste, all three remarking that it was surprisingly nice tasting considering the nose. 
-Overall notes were that the taste and look were quite wonderful but that the nose ruined the quality of the wine. 

So, certainly I had noticed a nose that I didn't entirely like to this wine. The taste was always fine though, so I never paid too much attention to it. Not sure how I would have gotten a vinegared smell to it, but perhaps the sulfur smell was being misidentified by some of them?

wine # 2 - Concord, NA sweet

-Judges commented on the dark/oxidized coloring of the wine. 
-Again commented on the lack of bouquet, 1 mentioned too much sulfur, and the other mentioned a vinegary/sulfury smell. 
-Again they all remarked on great flavor and fruitiness. Also remarked on nice finish.

So here my question is the following - how can a wine be both over-sulfited as well as oxidized? Wouldn't one prevent the other?


TAKE-HOME MESSAGES

Seems like the nose is where my wines need the most work. Could this be to oversulfiting? I was pondering this the other day, and thinking that I sulfite at every racking. I have since switched to every other, but perhaps that could be where my problem was? Any other comments/suggestions? It seemed like the taste was on, which is good if nothing else! 

Thanks for the help!


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## robie (Mar 12, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> So here my question is the following - how can a wine be both over-sulfited as well as oxidized? Wouldn't one prevent the other?



Congrats on stepping up and entering your wines in the first place. Good going!

The wine could be both over sulfited and oxidized, if you added the sulfites AFTER the wine was already oxidized.

My guess is the wine was not oxidized, but over-sulfited, which also would mute the aroma. CO2 will also mute the aroma.


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## Minnesotamaker (Mar 12, 2012)

The one thing that has always been pounded into my head is that..."90% of a wine's score is earned in the vineyard." I've never been a big fan of the canned concentrates. They'll make wine, but not sure I'd expect it to fare well in stiff competition. Try focusing on finding fruit that is top notch and that'll at least give you the potential of tremendous results if everything else goes well.


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## Turock (Mar 13, 2012)

I totally agree with Lon. In fact, in our wine judgings at the county fair, kit wines are not allowed.

Concentrates are fine for drinking, but they'll never get big awards. In 2007 we won Best of Show for a concord. The judges told us it won, against many other wine types, because it was perfectly balanced. We had put in some extra work on that bottle before it went to judging, and the grapes it was made from was from a real good year where the grapes did not go thru heavy rains before harvest. 

Wines from the fruit give you the best chance of, at least, winning a few blue ribbons.


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## JohnT (Mar 13, 2012)

Could not agree more. Concentrates will only take you so far. 

When you use concentrates, you are giving up a large portion of control on how you make your wine. You rely on the concentrate to yeild high quality juice and that is very rarely the case. You are also doing away with the chance to control the maceration process. 

Next time, try either a better kit or (better yet) start with real quality wine grapes. Avoid concord. I find that any wine made from concord grapes always tastes like grape jelly.


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## ckassotis (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions robie!

As for the comments, I think you might have misunderstood! I wasn't trying to win any awards here certainly, was just shooting for unbiased feedback that I could use to improve going forward. 

I totally agree that I doubt I would win awards with concentrates, especially considering they were going up against fresh grape wines. 

I already have 100% juice kits going, and have some fresh grapes coming this Fall. However, I would never suggest that anyone new try fresh grapes. There are too many things to learn first, and spending large amounts of money seems like a waste to me until you learn them! Assuming this sulfite lesson was correct, I'm happy to have learned it on a concentrate and not have ruined something significantly more expensive!


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## winemaker_3352 (Mar 13, 2012)

I think what they are trying to get at is that wine from concentrates will only taste, smell, and the overall balance will just be so so.

K-meta addition - this is what i do.

Add in primary up front
Add during stabilization after fermentation
Add in 3 months during aging
Add in 4 months during aging
Add in 4-5 months during aging (usually bottle shortly after)

the SO2 additions can be spread out as the wine will retain more as time goes on.

You can also buy SO2 testers so you know exactly where you are.

Start with monitoring your SO2 levels in the concentrates - it will improve the overall quality.

What grapes are you getting this fall and where from??


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## russfink (Mar 13, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> So here my question is the following - how can a wine be both over-sulfited as well as oxidized? Wouldn't one prevent the other?



It's probably not over-sulfited, but there were probably significant sulfur defects in the wine because of yeast stress. Possibly caused by lack of nutrients, high or low ph. Tough to tell.

Did you use any yeast nutrient? If so, what brand?


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## JohnT (Mar 13, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> Thanks for the suggestions robie!
> 
> As for the comments, I think you might have misunderstood! I wasn't trying to win any awards here certainly, was just shooting for unbiased feedback that I could use to improve going forward.
> 
> ...




Starting with fresh grapes is not as expensive as you might think. There are ways to make do with a minimum of investment. As far as learning, you already know how to make wine from concentrate, So I assume that you know how to make wine from quality juice. 

The only part you have never done is to make your own juice first. This is not as big a deal as you might think, but it makes all the difference!

1) crusher-destemmer - this is a very expensive piece of equipment that takes the stems off of the grapes and gently "smushes" them. You can ge the same effect by first pulling all the stems off the grapes by hand. For 5 gal of wine / 64 lbs of grapes, this will not take too much time. I could do this in about 30 minutes. 

Once you have clean berries, place them into a container (unused garbage can) and squash them with your bare (very clean & soaked in k-meta) feet. This will crush the grapes without crushing the seeds. Do this until you feel the grapes become very soupy and you only feel seeds under foot.

Once complete, treat with k-meta. 

Note: for red wine, you want to ferment for about a week, then press. For white wines, you may want to press right away.

2) press - again, can be a very expensive piece of equipment. For very small batches (5 gal or so), you could simply go to a restaurant supply store and get a big sieve. I have seen where a 5 gallon bucket (riddled with small holes) was used. In either case, simply strain off the skins/seeds from the juice, then apply a plate (china) and some gentile pressure to get as much as you can. 


Summary- so for a 5 gal batch, in addition to what you already have, all you need is a strainer and a small (20 gal) unused garbage can. A 5 gal bucket costs around 2.50 and a garbage can costs around 10.00 at lowes. A total investment of 12.50.

All this really takes is time. I HIGHLY recomend that you give it a try!


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## russfink (Mar 13, 2012)

Or you can buy a juice bucket from a local grower.


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## JohnT (Mar 13, 2012)

russfink said:


> Or you can buy a juice bucket from a local grower.



I would give fruit a try if you are making red wine. This way you can control maceration (time the wine sits on the skins to control body, color, and flavor. Since bucket juice come viod of any grapes skins, red wines tend to be very light. 

Bucket juice is just fine for white wines though.


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## ckassotis (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks Jon for your sulfite explanation. I think I was definitely over-doing it on adding this, quite possibly leading to the results I saw.

I'll need to buy some of the cheap little SO2 kits and test those wines and see what I come up with. 

As for grapes this fall, not entirely sure. I'm thinking Norton, maybe Chardonel and possibly a little something else. Not sure from where, have been talking with a winemaker friend to just steal a small portion of the ones he is already buying, since I'd only be taking ~100 pounds or so of any one variety for this year. 

As for yeast stress, I don't think that would be it, but who knows. pH and TA were spot on for those, and nutrients were added as well. Not sure what brand, whatever Midwest supplies. 

@John - I might not have been clear, sorry. Certainly not suggesting that grapes will not always provide a more superior project or that these are terribly hard to do. I would however stand by the fact that I would recommend to no one stepping into winemaking with fresh grapes. I think there are a lot of important lessons to learn first, which as you noted, I hope I have. I should have fresh grapes for this season, and look forward to the process. Unless you are getting a free-pick though, these will always be more expensive than buying some of the concentrates. Especially for worthwhile grapes! I certainly know the process though, as I have helped out with crush time at a few wineries now in the past year.


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## russfink (Mar 13, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Since bucket juice come viod of any grapes skins, red wines tend to be very light.



Yeah, and that isn't to be overlooked either.


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## ckassotis (Mar 13, 2012)

Yeah from what I have been reading, you really need to get a bucket with grape pack, or something of the sort, if you want to avoid that problem. Obviously not an issue with the whites.


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## robie (Mar 13, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> As for grapes this fall, not entirely sure. I'm thinking Norton



If you find a good source for Norton, please let me know. I am interested in Norton, too.


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## Turock (Mar 14, 2012)

CK--when using concentrates from the grocery store, they already have sulfites in them. So I would say it's pretty easy to over sulfite. I would think a wine like this one would need very little racking because there aren't many solids in juice. Our wines are made from grapes and fruit, and even with these, we rack only once and we never add more sulfite. 

We all know that proper sulfite levels depend on PH and you can run some SO2 tests so you can get a handle on how much to use for the fruits you use. We have never tested in 23 years of winemaking. But we have strict control over our PH on all our wines. We've learned proper sulfite levels from experience, because when we started out, there was no internet and the explosion of help for home winemakers like there is today. We sulfite at the primary and never again until we bottle.

I think what I'm saying is that new winemakers may be racking too much and adding too much sulfite. One of the best ways to oxidize is by too much racking, too much opening the airlock for tasting. Once our wine gets to the secondary, it's never opened again until bottling time. Reducing your wine's exposure to O2 will be a big help.

I think you should try some grapes. When we first started out, our first wines were concord. They are inexpensive grapes and a good way to cut your teeth on wine from grapes. Niagara is another good one for a white. Niagara is one of my favorites because it's highly aromatic.


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## Turock (Mar 14, 2012)

Doing reds with some heat will give you all the color you can handle. Sometimes, it's little techniques that yield the results you're looking for. Also, no water additions unless using high brix grapes.


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## ckassotis (Mar 14, 2012)

Hmm thanks for the suggestions Turock! I think racking too much and sulfiting too much might be a common problem, as you say. 

I'm looking to get some fresh grapes this season, very excited to give that a shot!


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## JohnT (Mar 15, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> @John - I might not have been clear, sorry. Certainly not suggesting that grapes will not always provide a more superior project or that these are terribly hard to do. I would however stand by the fact that I would recommend to no one stepping into winemaking with fresh grapes. I think there are a lot of important lessons to learn first, which as you noted, I hope I have. I should have fresh grapes for this season, and look forward to the process. Unless you are getting a free-pick though, these will always be more expensive than buying some of the concentrates. Especially for worthwhile grapes! I certainly know the process though, as I have helped out with crush time at a few wineries now in the past year.


 
I am sorry to disagree with you. In fact, the first wine I ever made was with fresh grapes and I would recommend fresh grapes to any newbie. 

In my experience, kits require WAY more handling and chemistry then I feel I need when using fresh grapes. 

My point above was to quickly sum up a simple and cheap method to use when starting with fresh grapes and that the process is not as bad as you portrayed.


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## Turock (Mar 15, 2012)

I agree with you, John. The reason we like working with grapes is that you have total control of the process without anyone else's hand being involved like you do when working with juice buckets, concentrates, etc. And cold weather grapes are very forgiving to work with, unlike the high brix grapes of Calif where you need more knowledge to get a good result. We started with grapes--been doing it now for 23 years--and I have to say we've never fermented concentrates. Grapes aren't hard to work with, but there is more cost with a crusher, buying brute containers,etc.


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## ibglowin (Mar 15, 2012)

Might have to disagree with your disagree there John. 

I found kits the perfect entry into winemaking. Way less equipment needs. Basically "cookbook" directions" and they produced a very good end product if you gave it enough time and purchased a higher end kit with a grape pack and better juice. 

I am totally dumbfounded by your comment about kits requiring more chemistry than fresh grapes. In my experience I found that couldn't be further from the truth. 

Kits are acid and pH balanced out of the box and need no adjustments. You don't even need to monitor SO2 if you bottle within 3 months of stabilizing. Sure you can dig into the nitty gritty details if you want to with a pH meter and SO2 analyzer if you really want to go that far. If you don't you can just follow the SO2 top off instructions supplied with the kit. 

Working with fresh grapes...... Much, much more equipment to purchase and or rent. Lets see, pretty non-stop chemistry if you don't want to resort to just dumb luck. pH, TA, SO2, MLF, more pH, more TA, cold stabilization, more SO2.......

Kits gave me all the knowledge and confidence to move on to fresh grapes when I felt ready. I just bottled by first batches of Cab Sauv and Merlot from 2010 made from fresh grapes. They turned out fantastic. Best wine I have ever made for sure. 

They would have been a complete and utter disaster without the training I had from making kits. I would have learned either way for sure but this winemaker really appreciated the ease, flexibility and affordability that winemaking kits offered up front while I learned the process and decided this is a "hobby" I really enjoyed and wanted to not only stick with, but take to the next level.

Cheers,


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## robie (Mar 15, 2012)

I have to agree with ibglowin on this one. Kits are much easier and a great way to break into wine making. Helps one gain a little comfidence before diving into all those calculations and chemical additions.

With kits, about the only adjustment to be made is when bulk aging and adding additional SO2. TA adjustments before bottling a kit should IMO be done by taste, rather than by chemical test.


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## Dugger (Mar 15, 2012)

JohnT said:


> ........
> In my experience, kits require WAY more handling and chemistry then I feel I need when using fresh grapes.........



My gosh, what kind of kits are you making!? I don't think it can get much simpler.


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## JohnT (Mar 15, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> Might have to disagree with your disagree there John.
> 
> I found kits the perfect entry into winemaking. Way less equipment needs. Basically "cookbook" directions" and they produced a very good end product if you gave it enough time and purchased a higher end kit with a grape pack and better juice.
> 
> ...


 

Guys, 

I KNOW THAT I WILL GET ARGUEMENT OVER THE FOLLOWING......

MLF is optional, as is cold stabilization (I never cold stabalize). TA and PH are essentially the same thing. Granted, the PH levels are an unknown, and you should test, but you should also test when making kits. 

Monitoring the SO2 is also an optional exercise. Granted you may wish to maintain the 30 ppm level, but it does not mean that really, really need to do this.

The kit cookbooks also call for de-gassing and also the use of sorbates (also things that I never do). 



OK, so lets just say that the chemistry is the same (for the sake of arguement). I have posted on this thread a way of making from grapes that will only cost around $12.50 in equipment. A 5 gal pail and a new 15 gal garbage can is all you need. Sure, you could go the extra mile and purchase a six dollar titration kit to measure acid, but you would still be paying under $20 extra.

The training you received from making a kit was obtained by reading the kit's set of instructions. On a simular note, there are scads of "how to" books on making wine from real fruit. Not knowing how instruction sets are put together, I would assume that they simply tell you WHAT to do and not WHY you should do it. The "how to" book is a far better teacher. 

My point is that I would not rule out making wine from grapes for "first timers". Many of us started with grapes, and are very glad for it. I, myself, made only 1 kit in my lifetime. It turned out OK, but not nearly as good as the wine I make from grapes.


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## russfink (Mar 15, 2012)

TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?


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## ibglowin (Mar 15, 2012)

OMG!

John and I agree about something!



JohnT said:


> I, myself, made only 1 kit in my lifetime. It turned out OK, but not nearly as good as the wine I make from grapes.


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## digitaleye (Mar 15, 2012)

russfink said:


> TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?



I believe that is correct correct regarding the pH scale and its certainly possible for wines or musts with different TA to have the same pH.


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## robie (Mar 15, 2012)

russfink said:


> TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?


 

True, they are not the same. When one goes up, you can expect the other to go down, and visa-versa.

As far as the relationship of how much one changes in regard to the other, that is very variable from one wine to the next and even one batch to the next. That's why when one adjusts the acid level, one should adjust it by half of what the formula dictates, stir really well, then test/adjust again.


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## digitaleye (Mar 15, 2012)

Regarding kits v. actual grapes I'm reminded of a quote fromm a local winemaker who told me once (and I paraphrasing here) that 90% of the final quality of the wine comes form the original quality of the grapes. Only 10% is what is done to them in the winery. 

His point was that you can make really good wine if you start with really good grapes and just don't eff them up.

My point is that those probably aren't the very best grapes getting processed into wine kits.

No don't get me wrong, I'm sure you can get decent wine form a kit, no need to flame me here but I think if you have any possibility of getting your hands on just picked grapes or better yet just ready to be picked grapes you should do it.


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## ckassotis (Mar 15, 2012)

You do indeed! pH does use a logarithmic scale, which makes comparing the two quite difficult as robie noted. 

My one point of contention between fresh grapes and kits would be the cost I think. While you say that you have listed a very cheap collection of items that can be used to make it work, you haven't really. You are missing all of the chemicals, additives, yeast, etc. that you will need to buy and that will come provided with the wine kit already. 

Nevermind the actual grape cost. I haven't seen any quality grapes that can match the price on some of the kits. Not to say they all don't. Some of the elite kits can get very expensive. The trade-off being that you don't need to do nearly as much work or have any many supplies on hand. But you certainly aren't going to get going for $20, especially when you haven't accounted for fruit yet!


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## ckassotis (Mar 15, 2012)

And so as not to be misunderstood - I have grapes coming in a few months. Eagerly anticipating their arrival. I just am happy that I didn't start with grapes. I do think that at the end of the day you will likely end up with better quality from fresh, but I like that I have now learned quite a few good lessons that I can use to hopefully really excel with these grapes.


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## robie (Mar 15, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> And so as not to be misunderstood - I have grapes coming in a few months. Eagerly anticipating their arrival. I just am happy that I didn't start with grapes. I do think that at the end of the day you will likely end up with better quality from fresh, but I like that I have now learned quite a few good lessons that I can use to hopefully really excel with these grapes.


 
I am in total agreement with you on this. Before you get your grapes, be sure you have all the chemicals ON HAND. There will not be time to order things once the grapes arrive. Decide if you are going to do an MLF, so you can acquire the bacteria ahead of time. Same for yeast, decide what type you will use and pre-order it.

www.morewinemaking.com has a really nice manual for making red wines and one for white wines. I would use them as a reference.


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## ckassotis (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks, I need to check those manuals out. 

One further thought, from robie's comment. There is more urgency with fresh grapes. I got a kit that was well recommended a week or so ago, but have been deciding which yeast to use since then. I like that there isn't a crazy rush to get it started. I did my homework, and ordered the yeast I wanted last night. Not to say that you can't do all that before, but it allows more room for error. 

My only other thought on the matter is that kits do also allow you to try your hand at varietals that you might not get a chance to make otherwise. I realize that now some places do frozen grape pails, which you can use to get a lot of otherwise inaccessible varieties, but in terms of fresh grapes, you are (mostly) going to be looking nearby, or at most, within the country. If you want to try some Italian grapes though, or something of the sort, I believe you would need to try a kit. I could be wrong though!


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2012)

russfink said:


> TA and PH are essentially *not* the same thing, by my understanding. Fundamentally different. TA is linear while PH is logarithmic. So, the TA will rise much more rapidly then the PH will drop. It's a factor of 10, the difference between ph 3 and ph 4. Do I have that right?


 

PH measures the strength of acid present in wine. TA measures the total weight of acid in wine. There can be a difference, but either measurement will do.


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> You do indeed! pH does use a logarithmic scale, which makes comparing the two quite difficult as robie noted.
> 
> My one point of contention between fresh grapes and kits would be the cost I think. While you say that you have listed a very cheap collection of items that can be used to make it work, you haven't really. You are missing all of the chemicals, additives, yeast, etc. that you will need to buy and that will come provided with the wine kit already.
> 
> Nevermind the actual grape cost. I haven't seen any quality grapes that can match the price on some of the kits. Not to say they all don't. Some of the elite kits can get very expensive. The trade-off being that you don't need to do nearly as much work or have any many supplies on hand. But you certainly aren't going to get going for $20, especially when you haven't accounted for fruit yet!


 

OK, 

The $20 is just for the additional equipment you would need. Of course you would need to purchase fruit, but the cost of fruit is comparable to the price of a kit.

So if I am making 5 gallons of finished wine, I would go with 2 lugs (65 lbs) of grapes. This tends to yeild around 6 gallons (the extra gallon is used for top off). If the grapes come in around $28 to $32 a lug (which is typical for my local), then the total cost of the fruit is $56 to $64. Not knowing the price of kits, I assume that this may be more expensive? Do good kits cost $64? 

Asside from producing a better wine (I think that we are all agreed here), there is the artistic element that I felt I missed when making a kit. Making a kit involves predetermined instructions. All of the maceration, blending, etc is done by someone else. It felt like I "painting by numbers". 

For me, the thought that if everone that buys the same kit, and follows the same directions, ends up with the exact same wine is rather disheartening. 
With fruit, there is a sense of adventure and the knowledge that anything can happen. This coupled with great results is a feeling that I think every beginner (that has the means) should experience.

Now before everyone gets their "knickers in a twist", I am NOT saying that kit wines suck. Quite the opposite, I was quite amazed by the level of quality wine that kits yeild. All I am saying is that (IMHO) you can get a better quality wine from real fruit. 

Sure, there is more labor involved, but aren't the best things in life worth working for? 

In summary, I still say that beginners should not be first turned on to kits and should wait to used fresh grapes. *With a little more effort, and only a little extra cash, you can make a great wine from fresh fruit. A wine that is potentially better than wines made from a kit. *

*also, If you get stuck on a problem, we members of winemakingtalk.com are here to help.*


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## Julie (Mar 16, 2012)

PH is the measurement of the strength of acid, TA is the measurement of the percent of weight of acid. 

TA affects the taste of wine and PH affects the stability of wine.


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## ibglowin (Mar 16, 2012)

Wow,

I want to know what grapes your using that you get 6 gallons of finished wine from 65lbs of fruit!

I have made almost every varietal of vinifera noble (from 2 different states) and they all seem to produce ~6 gallons of finished wine from ~100lbs of fruit.



JohnT said:


> So if I am making 5 gallons of finished wine, I would go with 2 lugs (65 lbs) of grapes. This tends to yeild around 6 gallons (the extra gallon is used for top off).


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## ckassotis (Mar 16, 2012)

Yeah I won't disagree with you that I think that you can potentially do more with grapes than kits. 

However, yeah - first, you should need 100 lbs for ~6 gallons. That's certainly what people around here get. 

My key argument would just be that there are a lot more things that you need to be concerned about with fresh grapes. I think it is good to learn some of the basic skills first without needing to address everything your first time around. Totally respect you for going ahead with fresh grapes your first time out though. I really would not have wanted to. I also don't want to do anything with the bare basics though, and I feel I would need to spend a significant amount of extra money on supplies for fresh grapes in order to meet my "acceptable" level of comfort. Everyone is different though, and I salute your willingness to go all out your first time! I am super excited to try fresh grapes this fall!


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2012)

Let me re-phrase... 

I take two lugs and make 5 gallons of wine. 

while under secondary, I place most in carboy, and some in gallon jug. When fermentation is complete, I rack both the gallon jug and the carboy into one carboy (filled).


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> Wow,
> 
> I want to know what grapes your using that you get 6 gallons of finished wine from 65lbs of fruit!
> 
> I have made almost every varietal of vinifera noble (from 2 different states) and they all seem to produce ~6 gallons of finished wine from ~100lbs of fruit.


 
glowin, 

What happened? A minute ago, we were on the same side (and even agreed on something)!! (haha) . 

BTW, If the fresh grapes you are using are (in any way) related to concord, then all bet are off. Go with a kit!  ROTFLMAO!!!!


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## Julie (Mar 16, 2012)

JohnT said:


> ......
> BTW, If the fresh grapes you are using are (in any way) related to concord, then all bet are off. Go with a kit!  ROTFLMAO!!!!



JohnT, that is not nice! There are a lot of people who like to make wine from concord, straight or blended with various fruits. Just because you have certain standards that you live by does not mean that the whole world needs to live by those standards as well. 

Please be considerate of others feelings when posting derogatory remarks.


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2012)

Julie said:


> JohnT, that is not nice! There are a lot of people who like to make wine from concord, straight or blended with various fruits. Just because you have certain standards that you live by does not mean that the whole world needs to live by those standards as well.
> 
> Please be considerate of others feelings when posting derogatory remarks.


 
Julie, 

That was the furthest from my mind. Most of those who know me (runningwolf, back me up on this), know that this is just an inside joke and that I hate the flavor of concord grapes. I know that others like them, and I am not judging them (at least that was not my intent).

Sorry, do not want to offend. 

(can I leave the corner now?)


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## Julie (Mar 16, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Julie,
> 
> That was the furthest from my mind. Most of those who know me (runningwolf, back me up on this), know that this is just an inside joke and that I hate the flavor of concord grapes. I know that others like them, and I am not judging them (at least that was not my intent).
> 
> ...



lol, yes you can. I know what you mean but there are a lot on here who do not and I just don't want to give any winemaker a bad impression of winemakingtalk or you.


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2012)

Julie said:


> lol, yes you can. I know what you mean but there are a lot on here who do not and I just don't want to give any winemaker a bad impression of winemakingtalk or you.


 

Yea, I see what you mean.. 

It takes a long time for people to find out that I am an opinionated jerk.. LOL.


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## grapeman (Mar 16, 2012)

Julie said:


> PH is the measurement of the strength of acid, TA is the measurement of the percent of weight of acid.
> 
> TA affects the taste of wine and PH affects the stability of wine.


 
I guess it really would be sort of a percent of weight of acidity, and when expressed in % would be that. With that said, it is usually measured in grams per Liter or xg/L that is why a TA of .8% can also be expressed as 8g/L .. The whole thing is really oversimplified so the average person can sort of understand it, but you can read whole chapters in books discussing it. Total Acitity and Tartaric Acidity while sometimes close, can be very different at other times. I'm sure Mike could probably explai it a whole lot better. All I know is that if I have a wine with greater than 10g/L or 1.0% TA, it is gonna taste tart and would need some residual sugar to balance it out better.


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## ibglowin (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is a pretty decent explanation on the difference between pH and TA:

*Why are pH and Titratable Acidity [TA] not "proportional"?*


*The question asks why it is that wines or musts with different TA’s can have the same pH and vice versa.

In a must or wine there are both free and bound, hydrogen particles.

pH is a measurement of how many free positively charged hydrogens are around.

When measuring TA, you add sodium hydroxide to the must. What happens is, you deal with the free hydrogens, those responsible for the pH. But even as you do and as you continue to add more sodium hydroxide, you actually start to unhook bound hydrogens and make them free.

Only when you have added sufficient sodium hydroxide to unhook all accessible hydrogens is your measurement of TA complete.

Since the proportions of free and bound hydrogens varies greatly according to grape varietal, ripeness, growing conditions and so on, so does the relationship between pH and TA.*


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## Turock (Mar 17, 2012)

We have proven to ourselves time after time that it is PH that affects flavor. We used to measure TA, but over many years we gave it up and started working more with PH. Now, we are working with cold weather grapes and fruit--not Calif grapes. Our wines improved dramatically, especially our Niagara, by controlling the PH. We ran some bench tests, years ago, to prove to ourselves how different PH levels affected flavor. That really opened our eyes.

I don't care what John says--LOL We LOVE concord and have made some fabulous blends with it that are a real hit. I like wines that taste like the fruit they are made from. Don't care for wines that taste like "wine."


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## JohnT (Mar 17, 2012)

Turock said:


> We have proven to ourselves time after time that it is PH that affects flavor. We used to measure TA, but over many years we gave it up and started working more with PH. Now, we are working with cold weather grapes and fruit--not Calif grapes. Our wines improved dramatically, especially our Niagara, by controlling the PH. We ran some bench tests, years ago, to prove to ourselves how different PH levels affected flavor. That really opened our eyes.
> 
> I don't care what John says--LOL We LOVE concord and have made some fabulous blends with it that are a real hit. I like wines that taste like the fruit they are made from. Don't care for wines that taste like "wine."



So, what I said is valid.

The measure of free electrons, ph, measures the intensity or strength of acid content. Ta measres how much acid is present (or weight) of acid in g/l. 

Different acids have different strengths. 

Although ph measurement is prefered, the beginner can get by with a ta test.


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## Turock (Mar 17, 2012)

John--I was directing this to what Julie had said, which was that TA affects flavor more than PH. I disagree with that---PH affects the flavor much more.


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## ibglowin (Mar 17, 2012)

pH is NOT a measurement of free electrons!

Like I posted above: *pH is a measurement of how many free positively charged hydrogens are around.* A positively charged ion is a Proton. In our case we are interested in measuring H+.

If you are using pH as your only method to adjust a wine, you are making a huge mistake IMHO. A wine having a TA of 6.6 g/l can have a pH of anywhere from 3.15 to 3.96. THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE! 

This is why you can't use just one or the other really but you must use BOTH!

Here is an excellent Primer on the differences between pH and TA in Wine



JohnT said:


> So, what I said is valid.
> 
> The measure of free electrons, ph, measures the intensity or strength of acid content. Ta measres how much acid is present (or weight) of acid in g/l.
> 
> ...


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## winemaker_3352 (Mar 17, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> I'm thinking Norton, maybe Chardonel and possibly a little something else.



Personally for the first time going with grapes - i would suggest chardonel.

If harvested right - it pretty much makes itself.

Norton can be hard to get right - it tends to have high TA and high PH if not harvested or grown properly.

I think around here they harvest norton almost in november.


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## Julie (Mar 17, 2012)

Turock said:


> John--I was directing this to what Julie had said, which was that TA affects flavor more than PH. I disagree with that---PH affects the flavor much more.



Hey, don't be pickin on me!  LOL, just teasing.


I am really finding this thread very interesting and very informative.


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## Turock (Mar 18, 2012)

ibglowin---PH is the most important reading you can take because it affects the wine so much. Especially because it has a powerful affect on the efficiency of sulphur dioxide, prevention of oxidation and bacterial infection. 

TA is not a measure of total acid,but the acid that's available to ract with sodium hydroxide. TA varies according to varietal,growing conditions,ripeness,etc. I'm not interested as to WHICH acids a fruit will give me--I'm interested in the POWER of those acids. I can modify them thru PH control. TA and PH have no direct relationship. The best you can say is that a high TA is associated with lower PH and vice versa. So what you say is true--a high TA wine can have a varied PH. That's why you want to measure the PH in order to control the power of the acid. This is what will make a better tasting wine, rather than adjusting the TA and ignoring PH. PH tells you more because it tells you the power of the acids present--TA does not and is too variable to be of much use because you can't tell which acids are present.


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## ibglowin (Mar 18, 2012)

I agree that pH is important but you can't just ignore TA and make your wine based solely on a pH reading IMHO.

Case in point was this years Petit Verdot from California grapes. If you recall it was a pretty bad harvest with a cooler than normal Summer and late season rains that compounded things even more. 

Initial numbers on this must was pH of 4.07 and TA of 5.7 and a Brix of 27.5. I added 2.5L of acidulated water and retested the must. The results now were pH 4.03, TA 4.5 and Brix of 25.0. I added more Tartaric and retested the must to find a pH of 3.98 and a TA of 6.5

If I only focused on pH and kept adding acid until I got the pH down to ~3.6 I have no doubt that the TA would have gone well over 10.0 and I would have had an undrinkable and very "tart" Petit Verdot.

You have to measure both, balance both as best you can and at some point decide this is as good as it is going to get, and go with it.

My numbers after MLF are pH = 3.83 and TA =6.0. Not perfect but not way out of whack. I could make another addition of acid and try and tweak the numbers a bit more but as this will be used mainly as a blending wine (in small amounts) the numbers will become pretty insignificant when blended in with predominately Cab Sauv and Merlot that had pH's in the 3.5 to 3.6 and TA in the 6.6 to 7.5 range

Cheers,


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## Runningwolf (Mar 18, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Julie,
> 
> That was the furthest from my mind. Most of those who know me (runningwolf, back me up on this), know that this is just an inside joke and that I hate the flavor of concord grapes. I know that others like them, and I am not judging them (at least that was not my intent).
> 
> ...


 
LMAO, How did I miss this entire thread? Very good conversation even if John is dragging me into the mud with him. LOL Honestly John I do not care for Concord or Niagara by themselves. Blend the two together or with other grapes or fruits they are awesome. My Niagara got me out of trouble this week blending it with raspberry and plum wines. Blending it with Cranberry is also awesome. Boy I'm glad no one brought up the big *"W"* word. LOL


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## Turock (Mar 19, 2012)

There is no doubt in what you say when working with Calif. grapes. 

But as I often say--I only work with cold weather grapes and fruit. One does not need to pay attention to TA when working with them. They are basically balanced out, as opposed to the high brix grapes. It's far more important to have good PH control, and most winemakers I know are taking a TA reading to know what the range of the PH might be. But that is not as accurate as a PH reading when you're trying to move in tenths. Fruit and cold weather grapes need good PH control because you're using no water.

So to say you ALWAYS have to consider and measure TA is not always correct. Depends what you're working with.


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## ibglowin (Mar 19, 2012)

I guess we will just have to "agree to disagree" on that point.

So what cold hardy grapes are you making wine from?

Do you grow them yourself or purchase from someone?

I could see if you have been making wine from the same grapes for 20 years being able to pretty much go on "autopilot" after awhile but I suspect 95% of the winemakers on this forum are not in that category nor will they ever be.


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## JohnT (Mar 19, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> LMAO, How did I miss this entire thread? Very good conversation even if John is dragging me into the mud with him. LOL Honestly John I do not care for Concord or Niagara by themselves. Blend the two together or with other grapes or fruits they are awesome. My Niagara got me out of trouble this week blending it with raspberry and plum wines. Blending it with Cranberry is also awesome. Boy I'm glad no one brought up the big *"W"* word. LOL


 

What "W" word????


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## JohnT (Mar 19, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> pH is NOT a measurement of free electrons!
> 
> Like I posted above: *pH is a measurement of how many free positively charged hydrogens are around.* A positively charged ion is a Proton. In our case we are interested in measuring H+.
> 
> ...


 

Glowin, 

OK, Misspoke in the electrons, but my point is still valid... 

PH is the measure of the STENGTH of acid that is present. 
TA is the mesure of the acid WEIGHT present. 

These are really two different types of fruit. 

Additionally, I am simply trying to say that a beginner can make do with just measuring the TA to get wine that is fairly stable. They do not need to invest the $80 (min) in a PH meter. 

GEEEEEEEEZE!

A proton is a particle that exists in an atoms nucleus and is used to determine atomic weight. It is not an ION. Ions are determined by the number of electrons present. 

johnT.


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## GreginND (Mar 19, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Glowin,
> 
> OK, Misspoke in the electrons, but my point is still valid...
> 
> ...



Sorry, John. You are only right that the nucleus of atoms contains protons. But a positively charged hydrogen atom is simply a proton. Atomic hydrogen consists of one proton (nucleus) and one electron. When it loses the electron it becomes positively charged. All that's left is one proton. 

An ION can be either positively charged or negatively charged.


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## ckassotis (Mar 19, 2012)

I would disagree in that I think most cheap TA kits are extremely hard to read accurately. Especially with red wines. 

pH meters on the other hand are considerably cheaper than $80 these days and would serve you better than a TA kit if you had to choose one over the other - in my opinion.


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## Turock (Mar 19, 2012)

Well, I don't see it as a point to agree OR disagree with. TA is mightily important when working with warm weather grapes. The balance of TA and PH produce a much better tasting wine. Your example of the initial numbers of your Calif grapes is proof of what you are saying. Warm weather grapes demand a whole different skill set than cold weather grapes do. The two are not the same, by any means.

The thing I disagreed with is that "you ALWAYS have to take TA into account." The wines that we make are proof that TA is not that important of an issue FOR US. All the new wine makers in our wine club are working with TA because that is the way they were taught. Many of their wines have problems because they are working high acid fruits and grapes and the TA reading is only ballpark for their estimation of PH. 

We USED to work with TA many years ago. We ended up tossing the TA test kit and going with PH control--such a difference in our wines!! We often have people say to us,"why doesn't ALL wine taste like your's?" Or,"where can I buy this wine?" We didn't get those comments until we started eliminating water additions to our wines, and then being very strict with PH control. And I think that's the big thing for us--we use NO WATER. So that demands PH control.

We make cherry,serviceberry, plum,red raspberry,black raspberry, blackberry,pear,apple,strawberry,elderberry,paw paw fruit wines. Grape wines are concord, Niagara,catawba. We also make some Calif wines from concentrate for blending purposes,also. We also live in an area with high acid soil---so a PH meter is a small price to pay in order to make good wines from high acid fruits. We grow a lot of our fruit or it's growing wild in the fence rows. We have a very small vineyard of concord. We pick the bulk of our concord and all of the Niagara in vineyards in our area. We also hit the Amish fruit auctions for strawberries because we get better fruit from the Amish than any of the local fruit farms.


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## ckassotis (Mar 19, 2012)

I think I was agreeing with you actually. But now I think I have to disagree! 

I think once you are producing water-free wines from fruits (not grapes, which I don't see why you would ever add water to), pH and TA both become necessary. Blackberry in particular, can have prohibitively high TA values while having pH values that fall within the acceptable range. I think it matters more with fruits other than grapes, although I personally would still use both for all wines.


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## Turock (Mar 19, 2012)

Our blackberry here is very acidic. Usually comes in around 3.0 or a tad under. We still make it with no water and get rave reviews on it and blue ribbons in judging. And we ignore its TA and just go with it. It tastes like a blackberry pie! My brother is a BIG fan of blackberry wine. He's had many commercial bottles of blackberry and he constantly tells me that our blackberry is better than any he's ever had. 

But a lot of this depends on the taste buds of the drinker. Some people have more of a tolerance for different flavor intensities than others do. No problem with checking TA of it and adjusting if that's what tastes better to you. Experience and your own tastes are always the way to go---there are 20 ways to do something, and all of them are correct.


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## JohnT (Mar 19, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> I would disagree in that I think most cheap TA kits are extremely hard to read accurately. Especially with red wines.
> 
> pH meters on the other hand are considerably cheaper than $80 these days and would serve you better than a TA kit if you had to choose one over the other - in my opinion.


 

I do not seem to have a problem. There have been times where I performed TA test twice on the same wine and got the same results.


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## JohnT (Mar 19, 2012)

GreginND said:


> Sorry, John. You are only right that the nucleus of atoms contains protons. But a positively charged hydrogen atom is simply a proton. Atomic hydrogen consists of one proton (nucleus) and one electron. When it loses the electron it becomes positively charged. All that's left is one proton.
> 
> An ION can be either positively charged or negatively charged.


 
Re-read the following.. 

"A positive charged Ion is a proton". I was disagreeing with this in that an ion is created by a change in the number of electrons in an atom. Yes, in the case of hydrogen, a positive ion is just a proton (since it only contains 1 electorn and 1 proton). However, any other element could still contain a number a electrons. The important thing here is that there is an imbalance between the number of portons and the number of electrons. I will not even go into neutrons.


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## joeswine (Mar 19, 2012)

*horse of a different color*

just got on this thread ,yes, yes, yes,kits are the way to start and progress from,no dought,they give a new wine direction,structure and fundamental wine basics,they are the stepping stones to progress your wine making skills and learn to( think outside the box,)mentality  Once you've connected the dots enough times you'll get the Idea of how to connect the dots with fresh juice and after a period of trials and errors,the fundamentals will be install and you'll be able to travel between the two realms with easy and confidence,then you can step out side the box at will,or take the final step and much more work and toil with fresh fruit or grapes,both are a art form if done correctly.
kits are the starting point,to move forward from----- the building blocks.....


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## Julie (Mar 19, 2012)

JohnT said:


> What "W" word????



Oh JohnT I'm sure if you think about it it will come to you and let's just don't go there. Dan you are going to head to the corner,


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## Runningwolf (Mar 19, 2012)

JohnT said:


> What "W" word????


 Welches


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## Runningwolf (Mar 19, 2012)

Turock said:


> Our blackberry here is very acidic. Usually comes in around 3.0 or a tad under. We still make it with no water and get rave reviews on it and blue ribbons in judging. And we ignore its TA and just go with it. It tastes like a blackberry pie! My brother is a BIG fan of blackberry wine. He's had many commercial bottles of blackberry and he constantly tells me that our blackberry is better than any he's ever had.
> 
> But a lot of this depends on the taste buds of the drinker. Some people have more of a tolerance for different flavor intensities than others do. No problem with checking TA of it and adjusting if that's what tastes better to you. Experience and your own tastes are always the way to go---there are 20 ways to do something, and all of them are correct.


 

Turock, I do believe that it is important to take TA and ph tests. JohnT I have to agree with most folks the Accuvin TA tests are inaccurate along with their other test kits.

Now Turock you mention not using water and getting excellent results but you don't mention how. I would like to hear more about this. I also did a good quaint of fruit wines and grapes this year without water except for one. I am not saying if it is right or wrong, I would just like to hear more about it. I ended up taking very high acid fruit and blending it with very low acid grapes and it turned out very good. This was not the plan but rather a desperate move that I hope to improve on and keep doing.

I am enjoying this thread and find the debate very interesting (lets keep it respectful of each other's methods). The scientific part of the nutrons and such, I am clueless on and skip over.


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## grapeman (Mar 19, 2012)

Wow, lots of opinions here!

To me, I work with cold climate grapes. Niagara is not a cold climate grape and at an acceptable pH, has an inherent very low TA, so Turock, when the pH is in line, the TA is also nothing to worry about. Niagara is more of a cool climate grape. You are absolutely correct in that you should not water it down to lower the TA. If the TA is too high, the grapes weren't ripe. You can monitor the brix and pH and when they start getting in the correct range,, the TA will be also.

True cold climate grapes such as Frontenac or LaCrescent have a screaming high TA while the pH is low, say under 3.0. As the grapes ripen, the pH starts to rise and the TA drops. By checking for the riper pH range for those of say 3.3, the TA will begin to drop sharply. At some point, all the factors come into line if you have enough of a growing season. When the pH gets to about 3.4, the TA will get to around 1.0 to 1.2g/L and the brix will be at about it's max. If you get the TA much lower, the pH will rise too rapidly. When working with true cold climate grapes you really need to test pH, brix, TA and taste. They all are important. And no I don't use the cheap TA test kit. I use a digital benchtop pH meter, a Hannah mini-titrator and refractometer along with my tongue.


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## Turock (Mar 20, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Turock, I do believe that it is important to take TA and ph tests. JohnT I have to agree with most folks the Accuvin TA tests are inaccurate along with their other test kits.
> 
> Now Turock you mention not using water and getting excellent results but you don't mention how. I would like to hear more about this. I also did a good quaint of fruit wines and grapes this year without water except for one. I am not saying if it is right or wrong, I would just like to hear more about it. I ended up taking very high acid fruit and blending it with very low acid grapes and it turned out very good. This was not the plan but rather a desperate move that I hope to improve on and keep doing.
> 
> I am enjoying this thread and find the debate very interesting (lets keep it respectful of each other's methods). The scientific part of the nutrons and such, I am clueless on and skip over.


 
OK--so what would you like to know about it? There's not much to it, altho it might be hard for a beginner because you are "off recipe" and have to estimate how many gallons the must will make so you can adjust your chemistries accordingly. We also freeze all our fruit first in order to extract more juice. We like this technique because it yields wines with a big nose and intense flavors.


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## JohnT (Mar 20, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Welches


(OK, I'm having a Senior moment). 

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!


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## Runningwolf (Mar 20, 2012)

Turock said:


> OK--so what would you like to know about it? There's not much to it, altho it might be hard for a beginner because you are "off recipe" and have to estimate how many gallons the must will make so you can adjust your chemistries accordingly. We also freeze all our fruit first in order to extract more juice. We like this technique because it yields wines with a big nose and intense flavors.


 I believe most folks on here also freeze fruit (except grapes) before pressing. What I was trying to get at are you adjusting with chemicals or by blending with other juice.


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## SarahRides (Mar 20, 2012)

Wow! Very informative thread everyone.............I suppose I should be ordering a new pH meter soon before the Chilean grapes come in!


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## Turock (Mar 21, 2012)

Runningwolf--Yes that's correct. Because most of the fruit is so acidic, we are adding calcium carbonate to bring the PH in line. There's only one thing we add acid to--and that's the Niagara. We DO blend, but not for any kind of control.

Sarah---I think a PH meter is the way to go because the litmus paers aren't very good indications. PH influences taste so much, and if you get your wines better adjusted at the primary, your results will be so much better and you avoid having to try adjustments when you're trying to bottle.


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