# Yeast for Norton



## Ron22 (Aug 26, 2012)

OK I have my Norton grapes. 
Vineyard said Brix 26. 
I pressed a small sample and got an SG of 1.100 and a TA of 9g/L no PH reading yet.
I was thinking of using 71B-1122 to drop the malic acid. I have used it on my Frontinac last year and was happy with it there with no MLF.
Or should I go with a "normal" Norton yeast.
The yeast I can buy localy are BM45, BDX, MT, or Syrah (Midwest Supplies)


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## altavino (Sep 4, 2012)

it depends , if you are not planning on doing mlf , 71b or maurvin b .

or if you are going to do mlf (something i'd strongly reccomend unless you are going to sweeten this wine ) 

use any of those . although bm45 can be a pain to finnish.


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## robie (Sep 4, 2012)

Spent the weekend in Iowa picking Norton and a little Noiret and St Vincent. 

Just something to consider - not all wineries do an mlf on Norton. Compared to many other varieties, it generally has such a high malic acid content that a full mlf can create an off taste. Having said that, the wine maker for the Norton we picked does do an mlf and his Norton turns out fantastic.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 4, 2012)

robie said:


> Spent the weekend in Iowa picking Norton and a little Noiret and St Vincent.
> 
> Just something to consider - not all wineries do an mlf on Norton. Compared to many other varieties, it generally has such a high malic acid content that a full mlf can create an off taste. Having said that, the wine maker for the Norton we picked does do an mlf and his Norton turns out fantastic.



This is very true - I have had a norton both ways.

Without the MLF - make sure you have the tannins to smooth the acid out. It does taste very good this way...

Going this route - i would use the 71B...


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## altavino (Sep 4, 2012)

actually its not absolutely true , modern mlb strains don't produce off flavours at higher malic acid levels . if there are off flavours there is another issue such as wild mlb/ spoilage organisms, VA or reduction happening or the native / hybrid grape was left for two long on the skins.

I know several professional winemakers in Quebec who work with extreamly high acid grapes , above 12g/l 
malic consuming yeast , mlf and cold stabilisation are default practices used with these grapes.

some strains of mlb can produce buttery flavours in a white wine but these are not generally noticeable in a red wine and many available mlb strains are now available that produce very low levels of diactyle . generaly one only selects a diactyle producer when you intentionally want buttery flavours in a chardonnay.

a winemaker can simply select an appropriate mlb strain , also the timing of when you innoculate , ie a co innoculation vs a post alcoholic ferment innoculation can have a big impact. these are such commpn practices if buttery flavours are produced in a red wine , it could be considered an error on the part of the winemaker

lots of information on this from lallamnds website as well as scott labs website.

interesting Norton article http://wine.appellationamerica.com/wine-tasting/The-Character-of-Norton.html


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## robie (Sep 4, 2012)

altavino said:


> actually its not true , modern mlb strains don't produce off flavours at higher malic acid levels . if there are off flavours there is another issue such as wild mlb/ spoilage organisms, VA or reduction happening or the native / hybrid grape was left for two long on the skins.
> 
> I know several professional winemakers in Quebec who work with extremely high acid grapes , above 12g/l
> malic consuming yeast , mlf and cold stabilisation are default practices used with these grapes.
> ...



You just might be more current thatn the article by a Dr. Murli Dharmadhikari, who wrote about the high malic acid issue. The article did not have a date on it, so it could be very outdated.

The problem would be to keep the diacetyl as low as possible, because reds don't usually benefit from its taste at all and Nortons would even less. Also, the extremely high malic acid levels might be differenty in different growing areas, just don't know.

I wonder, can the low volume, home wine maker readily acquire that malic-reducing yeast and MLB? Some are av available in only very large quantities.

Before I went to pick Norton last week, I read that same article to which you referred. Nice article. I know one thing, since I had my first taste of Norton last year, I have been nearly in love with its wine. Very different, but very, very good wine. Some say it is most like a Tempranello. All I know is it is different and delicious. All the Norton I have tasted is from the same vineyard from which I picked Norton this last weekend. I really would like to taste Norton from other areas and will.


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## altavino (Sep 4, 2012)

http://www.lallemandwine.com/spip.php?rubrique4&lang=en


lots of info on lallmandwine.com , in the science and practice section , click on bacteria on the left hand side and it brings up a lot of articles.

for the home winemaker , maurvin b and 71 b are widely available malic consuming yeasts .

vp41 MLB is a very low diactyl producer and is commonly avalable, its also a very easy to use and reliable strain and is tollerant of very low ph , low temperature , high so2 and generally difficult conditions. 

baccus MLB is a a low to moderate producer , 

baccus is $16 for one carboys or six gallons worth , where as vp41 is $32 for 60 gallons worth at morewine

if splitting vp41 or any 2.5 gram dose between carboys , I innoculate a litre of wine with a little optimalo in it , let it get going nice and bubbly in a warm spot for 3 or 4 days , then add 100ml of this started litre between each of 10 carboys which have had optimalo added already. I use a 50ml syringe for this. I stir gently to get the fine lees and optimalo into suspension , squirt the mlb wine in and put the airlock on and leave it alone in a warm spot with no more stiring 6 weeks later test for mlf completion.

adding so2 at the crush also greatly reduces diactyl production


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## altavino (Sep 5, 2012)

looking at my notes , I bought maurvin b from gw kent. http://www.gwkent.com/maurivin-b-wine-yeast-500-gram.html


I did buy 500 grams , but it was only $25 bucks .

if you live in the heart of an area that is a cool climate or grows lots of hybrids and americans , it shouldn't be too hard to find some friends to split it with.

I use it on my cabernet foch & cabernet libre hybrids and my old vine marachel foch . 
you can keep yeast in the freezer for 3 years . I just add 1/3 more the second year and double up the 3rd year.

71b will consume 5-10% of the malic , mauvin b will do upto 50% and produces zero diactyl while it consumes the acid

maurvin b produces nice fruit and structure and its a low h2s producer so its a good yeast to use even if malic acid is low in your grapes.

its also great for high acid white wines where you won't be doing mlf .


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## robie (Sep 5, 2012)

altavino said:


> looking at my notes , I bought maurvin b from gw kent. http://www.gwkent.com/maurivin-b-wine-yeast-500-gram.html
> 
> 
> I did buy 500 grams , but it was only $25 bucks .
> ...




Good to know, thanks.

Actually, that price, considering how long the yeast will last, is not that bad. At more wines, by the time they buy in bulk and split the yeast up into smaller packets, it is still several dollars for only enough for one 6 gallon batch.

Next year, if I make the trip back to southwestern Iowa to pick Norton, I am going to drive it, instead of fly, and beg/borrow, hoping I can buy and take back 20 gallons of Norton. Should be fun and worth the drive. I just can't say enough about that grape!

According to the guy who owns the vineyard, the experts say one should not try to grow Norton in Iowa. Apparently, that doesn't hold true for the southwestern corner of the state, as there are two Norton growers in that area (that I know about, at least), and they both grow great Norton grapes that results in a great wine.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 5, 2012)

I am going to try and get some Norton next year - wanted to this year - but ran out of carboys to do it..


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## robie (Sep 5, 2012)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I am going to try and get some Norton next year - wanted to this year - but ran out of carboys to do it..



From where you live, there should be ample supply nearby.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 5, 2012)

robie said:


> From where you live, there should be ample supply nearby.



Oh there is - there was no issue finding them - had several vineyards that i could get them from.

But - i have 45 gallons of strawberry/peach 35 gallons of chardonel, sav blanc, pinot noir, apple spice. Not enough room.

Will be expanding my carboys over the next year to accommodate...


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## bigdrums2 (Sep 5, 2012)

Horton vineyard's norton from Virginia has a substantial Malo taste to it, very creamy and buttery and different from Missouri norton's. Norton can make a great wine with good hands and in my opinion should have a better reputation when compared to vinifera.


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## Ron22 (Sep 6, 2012)

Well I had 2 6 gal primaries so I did one with 71B the other with MT.
Pressed it off the skins today and put in one 5 gal carboy.
It was late so no real data on TA differance fromt he two. Did a tast test but not real noticiable differance. Really needs to AGE at this point.
Any sugestions for how much of chips and which type. We likeoak but do not want to over due it either.


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## altavino (Sep 8, 2012)

you might try some Hungarian cubes medium toast , I find Hungarian goes well with native varieties .
a bit more vanilla than frendh oak but not over the top like american oak can be.

2 oz (about 100 cubes if you use stavin brand) per carboy is a good starting point. add them age for 2 months and taste , you can rack off or add more depending on your taste preferences.


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