# Ferment on premise...legal in the US?



## gonzo46307 (Aug 28, 2009)

I know our Canadian brethren talk about the FOP's around them...but you never hear about any in the states. I assume if it was legal, someone would be doing it.

Recently a co-workers wife started a "class" at a local farm stand. She's basically renting the equipment and making a kit wine (I don't know which brand, but it's a Pinot Grigio). The person running the "class" is suppose to give her a call when it's time for the next step. She never got the call, and the "teacher" isn't returning her calls...it's been about 4 weeks since the yeast was pitched.

The whole set-up sounded like it was a FOP in disguise, and I think my co-worker said his wife paid a couple of hundred for the class. :< (I obviously replied that I'd teach her for $50 and a bottle of Knob Creek )

I'm still waiting to hear back about the rest of the story...it just seems kind of strange.

Peace,
Bob


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## St Allie (Aug 28, 2009)

Bob,

You think the 'teacher' has absconded with all the kits?

it does sound weird.

Allie


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## Wade E (Aug 28, 2009)

There are a few in the states like http://www.water2wine.us/. The prices are ridiculous IMO opinion and probably why they dont do that good here.


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## gonzo46307 (Aug 28, 2009)

St Allie said:


> Bob,
> 
> You think the 'teacher' has absconded with all the kits?
> 
> ...



My local supplier offers a class twice a year, it's a 3 hour class going through the basics of kit winemaking (let's face it, just follow the instructions). It's $25 and he gives a $15 gift certificate with the class.

I can see an 8 week class for in depth winemaking, but for a kit that seems a bit extreme.

Hopefully, she didn't get taken for too much.

Peace,
Bob


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## gonzo46307 (Aug 28, 2009)

Wade E said:


> There are a few in the states like http://www.water2wine.us/. The prices are ridiculous IMO opinion and probably why they dont do that good here.



I must have googled "ferment on premise legality", "legally ferment on premise"...etc, and didn't come up with that. My kung-fu is weak.

Peace,
Bob


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## mmadmikes1 (Aug 28, 2009)

It is legal in Washington. Each state has its own laws...10th amendment ......I know of 3 FOPs near me. Not counting the hundreds in BC. It is more popular there


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## Wade E (Aug 28, 2009)

The only reason I knew of it was that a forum member on another forum was talking about that place.


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## BobF (Aug 28, 2009)

I give up ... What is an 'FOP'?


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## Wade E (Aug 28, 2009)

*F*erment *o*n *P*remise or a store that will charge you to make your wine at their store and basically do most of the work for you.


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## BobF (Aug 28, 2009)

thanks ... live and learn


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## Tom (Aug 28, 2009)

Here in NJ ther are a few places where you can make wine from grapes. You must be there and use their wquipment to get around the "laws". Kicker is you must make enough for either a full barrel or a 1/2. Prices are out of site compared to doing it at home. I would rather make many different wines than make one for 55 gallons.


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## Madriver Wines (Aug 29, 2009)

Now we know what FOP is so what is SOB?? ...Wait dont answer that!! My name will come up [email protected]##


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## myakkagldwngr (Aug 29, 2009)

I know that I'm still at the step "before" novice in wine making, but isn't alot of the fun being able to walk into the room and see the carboys bubbling.
Wasn't it Carly Simon that sang "Anticipation"?


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## smurfe (Aug 29, 2009)

Yes, you can own a Ferment on Premise in the US. As Wade says it isn't very popular here though as the prices are very high. In Canada it is popular as commercial wines are so expensive compared to the US due to taxes. I don't know if commercial property is cheaper there. I know what it cost here and it would be a tough go to operate where I live. Your best bet is to find a local brew shop that teaches beginner classes and go from there. Many shops rent certain equipment like corkers and filters that help keep costs down.


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## gonzo46307 (Aug 29, 2009)

All these comments make me even more curious about the situation.

It'll be interesting when I ask him about it on Monday. Hopefully his wife didn't get scammed. The farmstand is 3rd generation, pretty big operation. It looks like they rented a corner out to this couple for a wine shop, hopefully they didn't get hosed as well.

Peace,
Bob


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## gonzo46307 (Aug 29, 2009)

myakkagldwngr said:


> I know that I'm still at the step "before" novice in wine making, but isn't alot of the fun being able to walk into the room and see the carboys bubbling.
> Wasn't it Carly Simon that sang "Anticipation"?



I have the same "airlock addiction" as well.

I love watching the bubbler. 

Peace,
Bob


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## Tom (Aug 29, 2009)

smurfe said:


> Yes, you can own a Ferment on Premise in the US. As Wade says it isn't very popular here though as the prices are very high. In Canada it is popular as commercial wines are so expensive compared to the US due to taxes. I don't know if commercial property is cheaper there. I know what it cost here and it would be a tough go to operate where I live. Your best bet is to find a local brew shop that teaches beginner classes and go from there. Many shops rent certain equipment like corkers and filters that help keep costs down.



Speaking of using corkers from HB shops. I thought when I just started making wine. Hmm now I can't remember that far back. Well anyway I thought the hand corker I had was great. Well the owner "rented" for $5.00 a Italian floor corker. YEP! that was a LONG time ago. WEll guess what happened.. yes right after I used it on 60 bottles I bought an Italian corker..


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## gonzo46307 (Sep 4, 2009)

*...Update*

It's definitely a ferment on premise deal. My co-workers wife finally got a hold of the person running the "class". They already transferred the wine to the secondary, and they (co-worker + wife) went over there to do the stabilizing stage. The guy said he'd call them in 2 months when it's ready to bottle.

She was under the impression that she would be doing all the work at the various stages...not happening so far. When they asked the guy, he said they could stop by anytime and he would show her any step of the wine making process. She responded by saying ,"but, that's not my wine".

Half the fun (besides drinking it), is watching the various stages as the wine progresses. "Getting your hands dirty", so to speak.

The cost...$250, and you get 30 (approx) bottles of wine, no equipment or anything.

I told him that she could have spent the money on a compete kit, and she'd be able to re-use the equipment over and over. He agreed. He said she already has plans to convert a room in the basement for wine making.

Peace,
Bob


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## canoe (Sep 4, 2009)

gonzo46307 said:


> The cost...$250, and you get 30 (approx) bottles of wine, no equipment or anything.
> 
> I told him that she could have spent the money on a compete kit, and she'd be able to re-use the equipment over and over. He agreed. He said she already has plans to convert a room in the basement for wine making.
> 
> ...



Thats expensive. The finished 16L-18L kits at an FOP here run $150-$170. The finished 10liter kits about $110- $115 last I checked. We pay more for commercial wine here, so someone using an FOP here would still be saving quite a bit.


You don't do anything but bottle. (legally you are required to pitch the yeast). They don't want you doing anything else though, it would get in the way and slow them down.

It sounds like your co-workers wife payed extra money, but still didn't get the opportunity to do the process herself.

Cheers
Bill


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 5, 2009)

i'm glad fruit wines are cheap. for a 5 gallon batch, we typically pay about $50 for all of the supplies. most of the batches are free (alteast the fruit, not the rest) as we know people with fruit trees or with bigger gardens. they give us fruit, we give them an agreed amount of bottles when it's done. it's a win, win situation


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## canoe (Sep 5, 2009)

Just read elswhere that the Canadian FOP model is illegal in the US.

In the US you have to be either licenced as a winery, or if an FOP use a model known as a Home winemaking center. They can rent space to the customer but the customer must do all steps. The FOP owner is not allowed get involved in the process other than supplying equipment and advice.

Cheers
Bill


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## mmadmikes1 (Sep 5, 2009)

canoe said:


> Just read elswhere that the Canadian FOP model is illegal in the US.
> 
> In the US you have to be either licenced as a winery, or if an FOP use a model known as a Home winemaking center. They can rent space to the customer but the customer must do all steps. The FOP owner is not allowed get involved in the process other than supplying equipment and advice.
> 
> ...


That is incorrect here in Washington , but every state has its own laws, Hell there are still places in America it is illegal to sell booze. In Washington you need a liqueur license, but not the same as bar, same as store selling Beer and Wine


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## gonzo46307 (Oct 11, 2009)

Update time...

She only got 2 cases (24 bottles) out of the kit. That's over a gallon of loss, which is really surprising for me. Even if they never topped off, and just used inert gas to offset the oxygen in the carboy...a gallon is way too much to loose.

The final tally is $250 for 24 bottles of wine. Oop's I forgot, he charged her $10 to filter the wine as they bottled it... So it's $260 for 24 bottles.

I told him next time to just give me $50 and I'll kick him in the ***. 

Peace,
Bob


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## Wade E (Oct 11, 2009)

Wow, thats like $11 per bottle! Ill do it for them next time!


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## cpfan (Oct 11, 2009)

gonzo46307 said:


> Update time...
> 
> She only got 2 cases (24 bottles) out of the kit. That's over a gallon of loss, which is really surprising for me.



Some places believe in maing the kits as 5 US gallons instead of 6.

Steve


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## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

Hell some of my fruit wines cost me the price of yeast..
The rest no more then 1.50 a bottle as I get fruit at a "deal"


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## non-grapenut (Oct 12, 2009)

Where's the fun in that? It's like drinking a virgin pina colada!


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## non-grapenut (Oct 12, 2009)

non-grapenut said:


> Where's the fun in that? It's like drinking a virgin pina colada!



I meant F.O.P.!!!!


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## JakeSnow (Oct 12, 2009)

There is a FOP place in town so I went in to check it out. Wine was made from Winexpert kits and cost anywhere from $9-$14 a bottle. It is popular here but it seemed to me to take away all the fun. I headed to the brew shop and found wine kits there and that's how I got started. To my amazement doing it yourself cut the cost in third! What a rip off the FOP was, although I'd have to invest in all the equipment and do all the sanitization etc.
As of the legality of it, yes each state has it's own laws. However, the federal gvt says you cannot brew more than 200 gallons of alcohol a year or sell the wine you make yourself or else the ATF will be knocking on your door. 
So how do they get around that? They mix up the juice and water and walk away. YOU pitch the yeast therefore starting the fermentation process and therefore responsible for creating alcohol. They rack and store the wine for you. You purchased grape juice, but end up taking wine home.


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## non-grapenut (Oct 13, 2009)

I have an email in to the ATF here in Florida. I posed the important questions: what happens if I want to gift a bottle, what happens if I want to mail a bottle to my sister, what happens if I want to commercially sell my creations--what would be the cost of the license and permit to do each of these. I will share what info I get with everyone...


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## JakeSnow (Oct 13, 2009)

Disclaimer: I"m not a legal expert.
With that in mind, I think it's perfectly OK to give a gift of homebrew. Problem comes when you sell it because 1.) human (the public) will consume it. Your homebrew needs to follow health standard etc. 2.) the gvt wants some tax money from it. 3.) alcohol is a controlled substance so you need a liquor license.
As far as mailing it, I think the USPS is against mailing alcohol or liquids. I don't know about FedEx or UPS. I think I remember when WineMaker Mag has their annual competition they state to have the wine in an unmarked box and lie if asked if you are mailing a liquid. (but don't quote me on that). There are also problems with mailing alcohol over state lines. It's all a big mess.


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## Huh? (Oct 14, 2009)

non-grapenut said:


> I have an email in to the ATF here in Florida. I posed the important questions: what happens if I want to gift a bottle, what happens if I want to mail a bottle to my sister, what happens if I want to commercially sell my creations--what would be the cost of the license and permit to do each of these. I will share what info I get with everyone...



Non-grapenut,

You can gift your wine to anyone you choose. You can make up to 100 gallons per year without a permit for personal use, 200 gallons annually if you have a spouse. You cannot mail a bottle to your sister through the US Postal Service. UPS will ship your wine. I don't know about FedEx. To sell your creations, you will need either a Bonded Winery or Bonded Wine Cellers permit from the TTB (Tax and Trade Bureau). There is no cost to obtain the permit, but you will be required to post a Wine Bond. The minimum wine bond amount is $1,000 and they cost between $100 -$150. In addition, the TTB will want $0.17 per gallon of any wine produced, if you produce less than 150,000 gallons annually. If more than that, then they want $1.07 per gallon.

There are other requirements besides filling out the application for the permit. The TTB does a background check on you, you have to supply financial information, you have to prove your site is secure and you have to have all of your equipment either installed or on order at the time you send them the application. Each permit is site specific. This list is not all inclusive. If you go to the TTB website, it will walk you through what you need to do and who you can contact if you have any questions. (www.ttb.gov)

That's just the federal government. Each state has their own unique set of laws and regulations. You also want to be cognizant of county and local laws and regulations such as, zoning, health permits, sewage requirements, etc.

I also want to state that I'm not an attorney. This information can change at the whims of Congress and regulators at any time.

Huh


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## non-grapenut (Oct 14, 2009)

Wow, "Huh!" I'd quote you but...wow...We all know "if it was THAT easy, everyone would be doing it," right? Let me now break into some dueling banjos and move back on with my simple life. BTW: that info was quite helpful. We all have goals..or should we call them, dreams?


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## Lakewood Wines (Nov 1, 2009)

*FOP, Winery permitting*

Huh gave a good explanation of the requirements for a bonded winery. There are two federal permit required, "Basic Permit" which defines the operation (IE. Distillery, winemaking /Blending,Rectifier, wholesale Etc) and then there is there is the permit to "establish and operate a wine premise". The latter is the "Bonded situation". In addition to the bond, background check, proof of finances ect, the is also zoning,environmental, water quality and others to deal with.
In Florida we also require a state licenses.
In addition to the Permits, There is label approval and state brand approval.
In regards to FOP places, if you read the TTB regs, if the FOP performs any of the processes other than testing (IE specific gravity, etc) it is considered you are making wine for resale and therefor require permitting.
We still do FOP although our mainstay is bottle sales.
Regard
Frank Vespa 
Lakewood Wines
www.winemakingpantry.com


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## Wade E (Nov 1, 2009)

Man, the 2 of you are a plethera of winery info and we really appreciate that whether it steers us away due to too much BS or just lets us know what we're in for!


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 1, 2009)

I would NEVER make more than 100 gallons. So I cant add either


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## Lakewood Wines (Nov 1, 2009)

*Permits,FOP*

Wade
I would never try to discourage anybody from getting the proper permits or licenses to fulfill a dream, our just open a dam good business. Quite the opposite. My only advise is to go it steady and gain the understanding of what is expected of you as you go along. Many wineries are run out of households (providing permitting is OK). And be assured that if you contact the TTB, they bend over backward to tell you what is required and how to go about collaborating the documentation for the permitting. it seems cumbersome but it really is one step at a time, don't rush it, take it one step at a time and be as concise as you can.
I don't know if there are FOP shops in your area, but FOP's are a good adjunct to a startup winery. 
Remember once you get your permitting you then need to seek out a distributor. A winery is allowed to retail off their premise, but to sell to other retailers you must go through a "Wholesaler"
I would be willing to answer any questions pertaining to permitting, or I can direct you to where to get the info needed.
Regards
Frank V
Lakewood Wines
www.winemakingpantry.com


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## non-grapenut (Nov 2, 2009)

Lakewood Wines said:


> Wade
> I would never try to discourage anybody from getting the proper permits or licenses to fulfill a dream, our just open a dam good business. Quite the opposite. My only advise is to go it steady and gain the understanding of what is expected of you as you go along. Many wineries are run out of households (providing permitting is OK). And be assured that if you contact the TTB, they bend over backward to tell you what is required and how to go about collaborating the documentation for the permitting. it seems cumbersome but it really is one step at a time, don't rush it, take it one step at a time and be as concise as you can.
> I don't know if there are FOP shops in your area, but FOP's are a good adjunct to a startup winery.
> Remember once you get your permitting you then need to seek out a distributor. A winery is allowed to retail off their premise, but to sell to other retailers you must go through a "Wholesaler"
> ...



Frank, Thanks for all this info. I am just dabbling in it now..sometimes they say if you make a business out of a hobby, it takes the fun out of it...are THEY right?


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## Lakewood Wines (Nov 3, 2009)

*Winery*

I have a lot of fun everyday. The biz allows me to get more in depth as to how to make good wine, blending and finishing. No doubt some great wine is made from kits, the addition of properly oaked blending wine and chemicaly ballanced wines rival even the best kits.
Regards
Frank
www.winemakingpantrty.com

PS-You won't have any sustantial income for a couple of years,that is why I mentioned the FOP as a great adjuct to a startup winery.


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## cpfan (Nov 3, 2009)

First, remember that FoPs are better known in Canada, so there is less of a sell involved.

I opened an FoP in a small BC town (pop 5000) in Sept 2001, and showed an operatiing profit at the end of the year (note that does not mean I covered the startup costs). The previous FoP in town had closed April 2001, so there was a bit of a built-up demand. I closed Sept 2007, and to the best of my knowledge there is no FoP in that town yet.

Steve


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