# Oak Barrel Use With Kits



## pracz (Feb 26, 2010)

What are the thoughts here about using an oak barrel for wine kits? Rather than using the provided oak chips/shavings, do any of you use a barrel? Does it overpower the wine?

The price for a 6 gallon through Vadai is a pretty good deal. How many times can you reuse a barrel?

Regards,

Pete


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## Dean (Feb 26, 2010)

I would opt for a 5 gallon barrel to use with kits so that you can have "topping up" wine as well. As soon as you start to use the barrel, you can only keep the wine in there for about 3 to 4 weeks as the oak will be VERY powerful. But after about 5 or 6 batches, you can start to bulk age in the barrel, and that will require topping up as wood breathes and you will lose the "angel's share". This will give the concentration effects on your wine that many commercial wines get, and will make your kits that much better.

You should be able to get 10 to 15 wines out of a Vadai before it going neutral. But even then, when neutral, you can still use oak alternatives and get the concentration effect, which is much more important IMHO.

Just remember that a barrel should NEVER be kept empty for longer than 1 or 2 months at the most. Also get yourself some sulphur sticks to burn at the opening of the barrel if you plan to keep it empty for a little while. That has the same effect as k-meta gas and will help to kill the nasties that will start to inhabit wet wood (which is why you should always keep it full).


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## pracz (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks, Dean. That is great info!

When a barrel is not in use do you recommend keeping it full of water?


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## JimCook (Feb 26, 2010)

Pete,
Water in a barrel means spoilage organism infiltration. I personally use two different barrels currently for my wines - a French oak 5-gallon and a Hungarian oak 6-gallon. I prefer the 6-gallon, actually, as I can top up with some of the wine that I'm drinking at the time and it helps alleviate the 'small container hodge podge' of different wines in small amounts. I have used both barrels multiple times, although the French oak barrel has been in production longer. I do not leave them empty ever - when one wine goes out another goes in. My current carboy situation allows me to do this and I keep my production high enough. 


When I plan on using a barrel, I do not add the oak originally provided with the kit. I have found that there are some distinct flavors from oak chips and cubes that I can taste in my wine for a year after it's been made. The barrel-oaked wines do not have this and the flavors not only seem to be more integrated, but the wines are generally better. While some of this could be attributed to the barrel concentration effect of water evaporation, a wine that was only in a barrel for 2-3 weeks doesn't have that much concentration effect and still tastes better (in my opinion) than wines made with chips/beans. 


As Dean astutely noted, if you are going to have an empty barrel, it needs to be hit with a sulfur stick to essentially fill it with in an antibacterial means of protection. Freezing an entire barrel is another option I've heard, but does not seem practical to me. 


Plan ahead and know that you'll likely only have your first wines in a 5- or 6-gallon barrel for a couple of weeks at the start. If my first wine was in for 2 weeks, the next was in for 4, then 2 months, then 4 months... you get the picture. 


- Jim


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## robie (Feb 26, 2010)

Dean,

Questions on the concentration effect you mentioned. 

First of all, I am a newbie and I am really wanting to learn and understand the whys and what-fors. So, the following should be considered question and not fact.

I have heard that due to this breathing effect, a typical 59 or 60 gallon oak wine barrel will loose 5.5 to 6.5 gallons of wine per year. I assume this lost space is replaced by air until the barrel is topped off again. I also assume this is a big part of the concentration effect.

So, some oxidation seems good for wine maturation, am I right? I would say that most kit wines don't get aged in oak barrels. Maybe this lack of concentration is why I hear kit makers say that even with an aged kit wine, sometimes they have to leave a wine decanted for "several" hours before it is at its best. Maybe it also (partially) explains why kit wine is some times thinner than commercial wine.

A great deal is written about the care that kit makers should take to prevent oxidation and I'm sure this is valid instruction. However, in some cases can't we possibly taking this too far, considering few kit makers utilize oak barrel concentration?

Having said all this, and having made an assumption that some oxidation is good, what about the lowly Better Bottle? One of its main criticisms is that it is a material that will, over a period of time, let wine evaporate out and air in. I don't know what the air exchange rate is or even if it actually does exchange air for wine, since it isn't actually made of "plastic", but if it does exchange at a reasonable rate, as compared to an oak barrel, why wouldn't it be a good idea to "plan" on placing a young wine in a Better Bottle for a specified time, in order to gain some of the advantage of this concentration effect?

Of course this would not be a good idea if the Better Bottle material actually affects the taste of the wine, but my understanding is that it doesn't.


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## pracz (Feb 26, 2010)

JimCook said:


> Plan ahead and know that you'll likely only have your first wines in a 5- or 6-gallon barrel for a couple of weeks at the start. If my first wine was in for 2 weeks, the next was in for 4, then 2 months, then 4 months... you get the picture.
> 
> 
> - Jim



Thanks, Jim!

Do you typically use a different barrel for reds and whites? Do you just rinse the barrels after each use?

When is the best time to incorporate the barrel? I would assume you would want to put the wine in the barrel after the wine has been stabilized but prior to fining. Then, if bulk aging, transfer to glass after enough time on oak. Is that correct?

Thanks again. Sorry for all the basic questions.

Pete


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## Goodfella (Feb 26, 2010)

I know it is ideal to keep the barrels full of wine....


But if not, could you keep it full of water and k-meta?


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## JimCook (Feb 26, 2010)

Richard, 


Micro-oxygenation is different than oxidation on the scope of what happens. The wood of the barrel allows oxygen to enter the wine in the same fashion that a cork does in a wine bottle. The comparative ratio of the surface area of wood compared to the volume of wine inside will determine oaking rates and the lower the rate, the more the time value of micro-oxygenation can take place. 


As the water evaporates from the barrel, the wine solids are left behind. If a wine started at 8% wine solids and 92% water (simplified numbers, but close to accurate), concentration over time due to water evaporation may result in 10% wine solids and 90% water (again, numbers used as examples). The micro-oxygenation is about oxygen getting in and the concentration is about water getting out in the same manner. As the water evaporates, the liquid levels in the barrel drop. If the barrels are not topped up, the air exposure creates oxidation on a more grand level and the wine could become spoiled. The topping up keeps the air exposure minimized while the barrel effects still happen. So, micro-oxygenation is good and oxidation is not so good on a high level. 


Pete,


No apologies are needed for questions, basic or otherwise. If you oak a red in a barrel and then put a white wine in there, it could turn pink. The wood is porous and that creates a residual effect. I haven't oaked any whites currently because my white production is limited and I've used selective oak beans instead. 


You could oak during fermentation, although it can be a messier proposition in a barrel (foaming and lees and all that stuff). I personally oak after the wine has settled and is stabilized. I rack off of the remaining sediment into the barrel and then let it go. I top up at least weekly (if the humidity levels in the house are lower, this needs to happen a little more frequently) and taste test to see how the oaking levels are coming along. 


For my process, I will either bottle the wine coming out of the barrel or put it back into a glass carboy. For my 5-gallon barrel, as I do not have any 5-gallon carboys, I generally go to blending or bottling. The 6-gallon barrel offers me more flexibility to this end. 


I do rinse the barrels out between each use with quite hot water and then cold water. The cold water final rinsing helps the temperature of the barrel drop rapidly and jump over those magic temperatures where microorganisms flourish. Do I need to rinse between each filling - perhaps not. I do it because I like to start from a baseline with each of the wines in the barrel and spraying/shaking some water around inside doesn't deplete the barrel. 


Goodfella,


I personally don't like spending money on oaking water.




I'd rather oak my wine. Since the K-meta levels will drop in a water solution that is exposed to air faster than a sealed container (the same reason why barrel-aged wine needs to be tested for SO2 levels more frequently than glass-aged wine), I wouldn't personally trust it. Others may use this method, although I wouldn't be comfortable with it. 


- Jim


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## pracz (Feb 26, 2010)

Jim - 

Thanks again. This was a great barrel use lesson!

Regards,

Pete


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## Goodfella (Feb 26, 2010)

Goodfella,


I personally don't like spending money on oaking water.



I'd rather oak my wine. Since the K-meta levels will drop in a water solution that is exposed to air faster than a sealed container (the same reason why barrel-aged wine needs to be tested for SO2 levels more frequently than glass-aged wine), I wouldn't personally trust it. Others may use this method, although I wouldn't be comfortable with it. 


- Jim[/QUOTE] 








I agree completely... personally, I don't expect my barrels will ever be dry. But I have heard alot of people ask about what to do if they don't have enough wine to keep it full. So I am just trying to help with that dillhema.


Easiest solution..... make plenty of wine!!! FOR SURE.




P.S. Good read about the benefits of barrels!!!


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## JimCook (Feb 26, 2010)

That's the way to do it - when planning to add a barrel into your winemaking equipment list, plan to add a couple of kits so you can have a 'backlog' of wine to begin with. By my third kit being oaked in a barrel, I was already at about one and a half to two months oaking time. I made sure I had three kits lined up before I started using the barrel. Now, as the oaking levels take six months or so, it's not a problem having kits lined up. 


- Jim


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## Goodfella (Feb 26, 2010)

On average.... How often do add k-meta while barrel aging? My barrels are still potent, but when oaking 6 months......


Also, people recommend fermenting a chardoney, then a pinot noir IN a new barrel to break it in..... What do you think about that?


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## JimCook (Feb 26, 2010)

The oaking hits pretty fast with a new barrel and especially so for a small one (5- or 6-gallon)so I personally stuck with wines that could take a more aggressive oaking and not miss a step (cab, merlot, shiraz, etc.). The very first run generally took two weeks or so and the next was 3-4 weeks. I havetwo Pinot runs in my French oak barrel - one that was just bottled and another currently being oaked, but that has been used several times now. 
If you have a SO2 testing method like Aspiration-Oxidation or a Ripper titration (including the Titrette versions), it's good to test your wine in barrels to figure out how the SO2 levels are doing. Different wines with different environmental conditions outside the different barrels all amounts to consistent testing on your part to see how your barrels behave. I generally top up with commercial wines that I'm drinking at the time, as it takes a glass or so for a 6-gallon per week depending on the relative humidity levels. Other than that, I'd shoot for adding 1/8 tsp. K-Meta every 1 to 1.5 months. That's guesswork, however - accurate testing is the way to go even in glass. Since I'm using commercial top-up wine, it is likely to have higher sulfite levels than my home wine, and that would affect the outcome. 


- Jim


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## Dean (Feb 27, 2010)

Wow, I don't need to answer. Jim has answered better than I could have.


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## robie (Feb 27, 2010)

Dean,


Yes, Jim described the difference between micro-oxidation and oxidation,
which was very helpful.

There were several issue not addressed.

There is still the Better Bottle issue.

Also, the issue that many (most?) kit wine lacks the advantages of the concentration effect, because barrel aging is typically not done. Doesn't the lack of concentration contribute to kit wine being thin, even if it is not the only issue behind thin wine?

If the Better Bottle does provide micro-oxidation and doesn't affect taste, why wouldn't utilizing them in the aging process be helpful?

I wonder if anyone has ever measured the rate of evaporation of wine in a 6 gallon Better Bottle under controlled conditions? I could work on it, but I don't have very close control of temperature and humidity in my basement.

I probably should have asked the question under its own topic heading; it just seemed that where I asked it was the right place at the time.


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## grapeman (Feb 27, 2010)

Dancerman, the Better Bottles are not very porous at all to oxygen. The amount of wine lost is neglible. A tiny bit of air exchange may occur, but I have left wine in them for up to a year, and never had it drop even as much as a normal air exchange when the barometer changes. I wouldn't rely on it concentrating wine at all.


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## Dean (Feb 27, 2010)

Yep, and now Appleman has answered for me too! Besides, I'm not the person to ask about Better Bottles. I'm somewhat of a traditionalist when it comes to them. In the past they did have problems with air exchange and I'm told that they have that fixed now. However, I can't bring myself to use them, and while I'm still young and strong, I can easily lift full carboys and the added weight from the glass is not a problem for me. I hold a bit of a prejudice against that product, and can only state opinion of "don't use them for micro-oxygenation, but if you want oxidation, then use them". 

Again, I've been told they've fixed that problem, but I won't use them to test it out. Even if they did fix the problem, they only had oxygen transfer the equivalent of PET bottles, and when I was bottling beer, I could keep beer for close to a year in those without any ill effects.

Also, it seems you are confusing terms here. "Micro-oxygenation" is desirable, and any form of "oxidation" is not, unless you are pre-oxidzing as per Daniel Pambianchi's article on pre-oxidation in winemaker mag to prevent browning of whites. However, that's a radical new technique to wine making.

Again, in short, a better bottle is nowhere near porous enough to get you a concentration effect. Only wood can do that.


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## robie (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks, guys,

I had heard on this forum to not use Better Bottles for aging because they leak air. That's why I was wondering - if they are "that" porous, why they wouldn't provide some concentration effect.

Everything I read on the internet indicated that they are not porous enough to let in significant air. So that clears that up.

BTW, because the 6 gallon Better Bottles have a mouth almost twice the diameter of a glass carboy, they work well for the second stage of fermentation, when racking to a carboy and oak shavings, powder or chips need added. Its mouth is big enough that the oak can be placed in a muslin bag, if desired, then easily stuffed into the bottle.

Because it is impossible to vacuum degas with Better Bottles and because picking them up with an air lock attached sucks all the liquid out of the air lock and into the wine, I don't use them for much else.

Thanks again.


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## Teamsterjohn (Oct 1, 2010)

Im planning on buying an oak barrel and was hoping to find some info on them. All you guys did a great job on answering everyones question, and more. I plan on using for red wine, but im thinking that ill make a white wine for some friends and us that time to help break in the barrel for the first time (2 weeks) then for my red wine, I can plan on keeping it in there for the 4 weeks. 5 or 6 gallon barrel is whats holding me up now. I want a 6 gallon barrel, but the price seems almost double that of a 5 from where I have been looking. Not to many 6 gal barrels out there, unless im just missing finding them.


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## Wade E (Oct 1, 2010)

Like said above if making wine from kits youd be much better with a 5 gallon as youd be surprised at how often and how much youll need to top up.


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## ibglowin (Oct 1, 2010)

Your not looking in the right place then!

Vadai Barrels

Only $11 more for the 6 Gallon Barrel.








teamsterjohn said:


> Im planning on buying an oak barrel and was hoping to find some info on them. All you guys did a great job on answering everyones question, and more. I plan on using for red wine, but im thinking that ill make a white wine for some friends and us that time to help break in the barrel for the first time (2 weeks) then for my red wine, I can plan on keeping it in there for the 4 weeks. 5 or 6 gallon barrel is whats holding me up now. I want a 6 gallon barrel, but the price seems almost double that of a 5 from where I have been looking. Not to many 6 gal barrels out there, unless im just missing finding them.


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## Teamsterjohn (Oct 2, 2010)

WOW, Great prices, Thank you very much. A 5 gallon barrel with a gallon left over to top off with sounds like the way to go.


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## Goodfella (Oct 2, 2010)

I love my Vadai 5.3 gallon. It leaves you some top up wine on 6 gallon batches....


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## ibglowin (Oct 2, 2010)

Quite a few of us are using Vadai barrels. 

Sandor is quite a character on the phone. Be careful as he likes to talk and its on your nickel!







teamsterjohn said:


> WOW, Great prices, Thank you very much. A 5 gallon barrel with a gallon left over to top off with sounds like the way to go.


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## Teamsterjohn (Oct 2, 2010)

There are a few to order from. Toasted or bees wax? What is carved? and also galvanized hoops? Thanks guys


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## Wade E (Oct 2, 2010)

Toasted is what you want, beeswax barrels are sealed and will not add any oak flavor to your wine nor will they micro oxygenate your wine most likely as the pours of the wood are sealed preventing any evaporation. As for carved Im not sure but my guess is the fact that they will emboss emblems or something on the heads for you if wanted. The hoops can really make the barrel look really decorative as the galvanized ones would be shiny as compared to the black iron ones.


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## Goodfella (Oct 2, 2010)

Wade is correct.


They will also toast the barrels to whatever you want...


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## ibglowin (Oct 2, 2010)

Here are a couple of snaps of my 6 gallon (medium toast). I am just about ready to put my first batch in it so will be prepping it soon. 

I did order the stand for $15. The other thing you will want to pick up is a solid silicon bung as well as a breathable silicon bung.


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## Goodfella (Oct 2, 2010)

NICE!!!!!! Pretty sweet Buddy.


Where did ya get you silicon bungs?


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## Teamsterjohn (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks guys, I will be calling them tomorrow.


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## ibglowin (Oct 3, 2010)

I am pretty sure you can also order silicon bungs from Vadai as well. They have a page for them at least.


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## Teamsterjohn (Oct 4, 2010)

I ordered mine today. Is the breathable silicone bung like a airlock? If not, what is it used for, what size bung do I need to order for it for an airlock. Thanks for all the help guys.


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes,

The breathable works much like an airlock.


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