# Cold stabilization mistake?



## FTC Wines (Dec 9, 2016)

Ok a month before Thanksgiving I put a 6 gal carboy of Pinot Noir, a Kit, in the wine refrig. Temp was 34* . We needed the frig for Turkey day so pulled the wine out & didnt rack it for over 2 weeks. To my Suprise No diamonds were found. So did they "re absorb " or does Pinot Noir typically not throw diamonds. Thanks, Roy


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## MAJ (Dec 9, 2016)

It's my understanding that there are many variables that determine how much acid will precipitate out of solution during cold stabilization, including how much, if any, tartaric acid was added pre-ferment..… 

That being said, I cold stabilized my Lanza Petite Syrah for 4 months at 31,* put it back in the cellar at 55* for another 2 months and then racked it…. The bottoms of the carboys were layered piles of diamonds.


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## cimbaliw (Dec 9, 2016)

I'm no chemist but I have to think that once tartaric acid has cold precipitated from a supersaturated aqueous solution... it ain't goin' back into solution.


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## farmer (Dec 9, 2016)

I don't do kits but it is my understanding that the acid is adjusted for the type if wine being made . Why are you refrigerate it to drop acid ?


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## ceeaton (Dec 9, 2016)

Just to add to the fun, my Pinot Noir from a juice bucket and added grapes this Spring dropped not only diamonds but some emeralds when sitting in the carboy in my basement that is right now 59*F. I have it out in the garage at 27*F hoping it will drop what it's gonna drop.

The nice thing is when you give a wine away and there are diamonds in the bottle, you can explain that 1) you used actual grapes in your wine and 2) they will think you are really intelligent because when they google wine diamonds, what shows up it what they saw and what you explained to them. So move that tassle to the right side (or is it to the left) you professor of wineology and drinkability.


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## FTC Wines (Dec 10, 2016)

Thanks all. I C S the kit because we have been plagued with diamonds. Many in our kit wines, especially Cabs, Malbec, & Amarone. Currently have a Pinot Noir juice bucket with 18 lbs of grapes aging. Also 7.5 gals of Cab from grapes, & 12 gals of Cab juice buckets with real grapes added. Which we will all C S. Craig I too give the Diamond lecture inc "Google Diamonds". My friends may not be as " blank " as yours, I get stares & the deer in the headlight look! Roy


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## jgmann67 (Dec 10, 2016)

This is all starting to sound a little "Big Bang Theory" to me... when is Penny getting here?

I've gotten plenty of diamonds out of kits. I'm hoping that the kits and wine from grapes I have in carboys right now will drop diamonds over the next couple months. It can get down to the low 50's down there if I let it.


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## salcoco (Dec 10, 2016)

why are you all cold stabilizing the wine? is the taste off? or are you just following some unwritten rule that requires it to be cold stabilized. this tool should only be used when there is access acid and the ph is okay. but foremost what is the taste before and after?


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## ceeaton (Dec 10, 2016)

jgmann67 said:


> This is all starting to sound a little "Big Bang Theory" to me... when is Penny getting here?
> 
> I've gotten plenty of diamonds out of kits. I'm hoping that the kits and wine from grapes I have in carboys right now will drop diamonds over the next couple months. It can get down to the low 50's down there if I let it.



@salcoco , I stabilize by default since I'm too cheap to keep my basement warm. It's a nice temperature for fermenting "steam" type beer (hybrid lager beers).

My two boys love that show...now just think if the kits are synthetic grapes and they add a bunch of tartaric acid just to throw us off the trail!

Once I get below 65*F the diamonds start dropping! I'm down to 57.2*F this morning, it's 26*F outside, so my wine and beer in the garage is safe. I'm good to 18*F for the beer.


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## salcoco (Dec 10, 2016)

is there really any improvement?


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## FTC Wines (Dec 10, 2016)

Salcoco, I'm not sure I really taste a big difference. For a wine maker my taste buds should be better than they are. I can measure the ph etc & they did drop, so I'm only going to Cold Stabilize on high TA & PH wines. Thanks again for the informative replies. Roy


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## geek (Dec 10, 2016)

I made a couple mistakes doing CS on a couple wines last year and earlier this year, one a CC Showcase kit and the other was my Chardonnay made from grapes last year.

I was not aware of making sure the pH is "in good range". I think I wouldn't place a kit through CS but the more knowledgeable people can chime in.
My Chardonnay from grapes was tasting awesome to me but it had this haze that wouldn't completely clear, so decided to CS and it cleared nicely within about 10 days, however the good flavor it had was just not there any longer, great aroma but flat flavor (haven't checked what its pH is at right now, so maybe a bit high and needs some tartaric addition when served because it is already bottled..!!). 
This is the wine I sent in for the recent white competition and I know it would've won at least a silver if I hadn't CS.

The wines you added for example pot. bicarbonate or calcium carbonate to drop the acid and up the pH, they are in need to CS.

All in all, I'd like to "master" CS from the home winemaker perspective and in fact *would love to see if someone with better knowledge can put a matrix together for whites and reds indicating, based mostly on pH?, the "go" and "no go" situation.*


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## Johny99 (Dec 10, 2016)

FTC Wines said:


> Ok a month before Thanksgiving I put a 6 gal carboy of Pinot Noir, a Kit, in the wine refrig. Temp was 34* . We needed the frig for Turkey day so pulled the wine out & didnt rack it for over 2 weeks. To my Suprise No diamonds were found. So did they "re absorb " or does Pinot Noir typically not throw diamonds. Thanks, Roy



This seems to be a confusing thread, but then again I'm on my third glass of wine. The "diamonds" reabsorb when the wine warms up. I can find the chemistry reference if you want. Has to do with saturation which is temperature dependent. No harm in just cooling it down again then rack it when you take it out of the fridge. 

Cold stabilization is done for just that, stability under cold temps. If you are happy with your wine and don't care if it drops diamonds if it gets cold, then in my opinion, don't sweat it.


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## ceeaton (Dec 10, 2016)

geek said:


> All in all, I'd like to "master" CS from the home winemaker perspective and in fact *would love to see if someone with better knowledge can put a matrix together for whites and reds indicating, based mostly on pH?, the "go" and "no go" situation.*



I think you are better off using a simple table, as matrices don't have column/row descriptions. I think if I were to develop a simple table to help decide whether to use CS or not, the two main table headers would be "tastes good" and "doesn't taste good, too acidic" and possibly "tastes bland, flabby" (that would make it three headers). 

I have never done a Cold Stabilization on purpose to lower acid levels, I do it to clarify my wines/beers. I normally cool my wines as cold as I can get them (in the garage during the winter months) so that I don't get wine diamonds in bottles I give away, otherwise I get phone calls and have to explain that they won't die from the wine they just ingested unless they get in a car and find the nearest phone/electric pole. I have never noticed a distinct flavor change in my wines after hanging out in the garage. But I'd have to admit, that is a step I take before I bottle and regularly consume a wine.

For reds, I age in my basement which is now in the high 50's temperature wise. I have noticed that both red wine from grapes/juice buckets and from kits will drop diamonds at my cellar temperatures. Personally, I don't mind getting to the bottom of a bottle and seeing diamonds there. Just wish they were worth something and I could sell them on the open market to buy more wine making supplies and raw materials. Or better yet if I could give them to my wife and she'd like them (and me).


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## FTC Wines (Dec 11, 2016)

John, Thanks for stating that wine diamonds reabsorb. I assumed that's what happened. Will decide if I'm going to do a second Cold Stabilization, my problem is I like to drink my red wines at 55 to 60* so I think my reds throw more diamonds because of that. Roy


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## Johny99 (Dec 12, 2016)

FTC Wines said:


> John, Thanks for stating that wine diamonds reabsorb. I assumed that's what happened. Will decide if I'm going to do a second Cold Stabilization, my problem is I like to drink my red wines at 55 to 60* so I think my reds throw more diamonds because of that. Roy



Just to be more thorough, as they reabsorb, the acid level goes back uo, so it is a truly reversible process. Thus a second cold soak won't lowere the acid any more tan a complete one did before being re absorbed. I've tried it, fun experiment.

I also recall reading someplace that the pH can go down but can also go up as a result of cs. Old brain recalls it is a function of initial acid concentration. 

I cs my reds, easy just roll the barrel out into the driveway in the winter. I like to chil them in the fridge if they don't come straight from the cellar and well, sometimes they stay in a bit too long. I also gift to folks I know hat like their reds chilled a bit. I'd speculate that is common with Pinot noir.


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## Johnd (Dec 13, 2016)

Johny99 said:


> I also recall reading someplace that the pH can go down but can also go up as a result of cs. Old brain recalls it is a function of initial acid concentration.



You recall correctly. The break point is right around pH 3.6. If your pH is below that point, CS will lower your pH (increase acidity), above that point it will raise your pH (decrease acidity). I posted a link to an article outlining the chemical process responsible for this some time back, it's fairly technical. 

I only perform CS when I have a specific goal in mind, not as a matter of course. My wines are bulk aged at 55F and I occasionally get some precip from them at that temp, it does little to affect the acid in the wine. Once bottled and stored at 55F, no additional precip occurs, but if you stuck one of my bottles in the fridge in the low 30's for a few weeks, I suspect it would drop diamonds.


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## salcoco (Dec 13, 2016)

My remarks about tasting the wine before doing anything to it including cold stabilizing is in regards to" is the wine to the winemakers satisfaction". Cold stabilizing is a tool among many if high acid wine is at hand. your taste would tell you that but some wine makers like acidity and some wines should have an acid bite to them. I was only trying to introduce caution in making wine not just follow rules or formula making wine. I personally went through the stages many of you are going thru now. measure add additives measure again then repeat. I spent money on more accurate instruments to make sure my measurements were also more accurate. Having gone through all of this I found no profound improvement after fermentation . Pre-fermentation numbers are paramount. the acid ,sugar and Ph should be correct before you start. this is my philosophy after 30 years of making wine. If you are all more comfortable following some rules and measurements to reach "magic" numbers post fermentation please go forth with good luck.


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## ibglowin (Dec 13, 2016)

Wine kits are tartrate stabilized and do not need to be cold stabilized. Juice buckets, wine from fresh grapes can benefit from sold stabilization.


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## geek (Dec 13, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Wine kits are tartrate stabilized and do not need to be cold stabilized. Juice buckets, wine made from fresh grapes can benefit from sold stabilization.



Do they 'sell' those too?


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## joeswine (Dec 13, 2016)

Sometimes when we play with are wine *as I do* adding extra solids to the base it then becomes denser than the normally accepted standard in a kit,and hazier, cold stabilization helps clear a stubborn wines haze problems (*if the normal practice has failed),* in white wines , Also it slows down the aging process at least that's what I've found .


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## NCWC (Dec 18, 2016)

Cold Stabilization
•	Process of eliminating the tartrates formed by tartaric acid crystallization.
•	Cold temperatures can, when wine is in the bottle, cause this reaction to occur.
•	Crystals can appear which is not pleasing to the consumer.
Cold Stabilization Tests
•	Freezer test -
•	Take a small filtered sample and place in a baby food jar or small mason jar.
•	Place in freezer for 12-16 hours.
•	Let thaw and if crystals don’t form, wine is stable.
Cold Stabilization Methods
•	Cold chill - place wine in an area where temperature is between 140 - 250 F. 
•	This will normally take 2-3 weeks.
•	If these temperatures cannot be achieved, keep at 390 F for a few months. 
•	Cream of tarter - potassium bitartrate.
•	Use 50-100 g/hL of cream of tartar.
•	Gently stir into wine and allow to sit at 390F for a week or two.
•	Process is called seeding - initiates the crystallization process.
•	Crystals can be reused for other wines to seed.


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## wpt-me (Dec 20, 2016)

Got an extra zero in those "F" temps ??

Bill


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## FTC Wines (Dec 21, 2016)

Bill, I was thinking it was a decimal point missing, not to be TOO technical! Lol, Roy


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