# Chilean Juice first timer.



## WineYooper (Apr 18, 2016)

I have ordered 6 gal of Cab juice and it will be in this Wednesday. The yeast has already been pitched I've been told and I have 24 hours to pick up. The message was they were frozen and would be available starting at noon. Here is the hitch, I expected this last Saturday and have a trip set up for this Thursday and am concerned what is best to do. I was planning to transfer to my primary and just warm up and let ferment commence with the stirring once or twice a day as it progressed. My concern now is with it sitting for four days am I best to just keep it in my basement 60 F and let it slowly ferment till I get back home since I will not be there to stir. The other item I have been doing reading on is MLF. Per the book most wineries do this first before pitching the yeast. I'm a little confused on this issue and very nervous about this due to the notes about MLF in the bottle. From my country fruit winemaking I have lots of experience with the ferment process but do not want a pricey error. Some guidance here would make me feel a whole lot better and worst case I will reschedule the trip till after ferment is done.


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## cintipam (Apr 18, 2016)

I honestly think you should reschedule. I tried leaving a red bucket in the basement for 2 days and not only did it make a mess when I opened it, because I was new at buckets I didn't understand that the initial SG had dropped a lot already. I tried to add sugar to bring it up to expected SG level for a beginning must and it took me a long time and lots of attempted fixes to turn that poor wine into something drinkable.

Can't comment on MLF, never tried it being a white wine lover.

Pam in cinti


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## WineYooper (Apr 18, 2016)

My plan was to transfer to 7.9 gal primary at home and transport juice bucket in plastic bag to control leakage out bucket blow hole. Thanks. May be rescheduling.


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## shoebiedoo (Apr 18, 2016)

I would think you would be fine for a couple days with out stirring. I would just bring it home and put it in the 7.9 gal fermenting bucket with an air lock. you will infuse a lot of oxygen when you transfer it. 

just my 2 cents


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 18, 2016)

With no grapes or grape pack, I think you'd be just fine.


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## Johnd (Apr 18, 2016)

With regards to the MLF issue, I have also been doing a lot of reading, in books and in winemaking sites / blogs / UC Davis literature, etc.. If you're going to MLF your wine, doing it at the very end of alcoholic fermentation, or after alcoholic fermentation will work out just fine. You can find endless information on the web about MLF prior to alcoholic fermentation, at the same time as alcoholic fermentation, at the tail end of AF, and post AF. I don't recall reading anything that indicated that most wineries do MLF prior to AF, but I imagine that some do.


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## WineYooper (Apr 18, 2016)

I had just read it in 'The Wine Maker's Answer Book by Allison Crowe. Guess I need to read & research more to learn what the difference is and if it's something I need to accomplish. Just want to insure there is no spoilage in the bottle.


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## Johnd (Apr 18, 2016)

I haven't read that one, but lots of wineries do alcoholic fermentation right after harvest/destem/crush is completed and then barrel their wines for the winter, letting MLF take place in the barrels during the winter and/or when temps rise in the spring. No doubt, it can be done both ways. 

Here's an interesting read if you're so inclined: http://lfbisson.ucdavis.edu/PDF/VEN124 Section 4.pdf


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## JohnT (Apr 19, 2016)

Not clear if the must will be thawed when you pick it up? 

If still frozen, would simply wrapping the bucket in a ton of blankets to keep the must cold work??


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## WineYooper (Apr 19, 2016)

Midwest said it was froze and would be starting to thaw by the time I can get it. Will have to see where it is at. If it is still partially froze, insulating and slowing thawing out is another option. Been thinking about just bringing it on driving trip and let it warm and stir daily, wouldn't be a huge deal to bring, just inconvenient.


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## Johnd (Apr 19, 2016)

I just got three pails, two frozen red musts (grapes and juice) and one frozen white (juice only). They were shipped frozen on a Wednesday, I received them on Friday, not frozen solid, more like slush. Put them into 7.9 gallon buckets and 24 hours later they were at 65 degrees. That's three days from frozen to fermenting temps, and it's 74 in my fermenting area. 

Were it me, I'd get it, bring it home, transfer to fermenting buckets with loose lids or towels, and take the trip, it'll just be getting going when you return. Plenty time to stir.


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## WineYooper (Apr 20, 2016)

Thanks JohnD. I am leaving work shortly to pick up. I have also read quite a bit more on MLF and have a much better understanding of what it is and can do. My fishing partner cannot go so I have cancelled my two days off of work and will babysit the juice now. So sorry the Lake Superior fish will not get to meet me this weekend.


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## WineYooper (Apr 20, 2016)

Picked up my juice and at home measured temp, 50 on bottom, 53 on top. Yeast has been added already before I got it and Midwest said I do not have to worry about MLF, already taken care of by supplier. The instructions say to add bentonite. I know it may help clear but do I need to worry about when I usually bulk age for 11-12 months. Seems if I de gas and rack every three months I should be good. Opinions? I have used Super clear on my fruit wines in the past and helped.


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## ceeaton (Apr 21, 2016)

WineYooper said:


> Seems if I de gas and rack every three months I should be good. Opinions?



If you have the time I wouldn't worry about any clarifiers. Time is the best clarifier in my opinion. A year aging should do the trick, plus you really don't have to worry about degassing unless it is aged in a cool basement.


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## divertab2 (Apr 21, 2016)

*Chilean juice*

I also picked up some Chilean - Quick question.
I was exhausted when I brought them home and clearly not paying close enough attention. Instructions said 4tsp of Betonite per 6 gallons, I in inadvertently added (using a strange measuring spoon)6 tsp

With Bentonite being a clarifier - any side effect or issues with using too much (50% - 6tsp instead of 4tsp)?

If this is too much, how do you counter it or do you rack off the wine now, clean the bucket and puck back in to reduce the volume of Bentonite?


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## barbiek (Apr 21, 2016)

No relax! I don't think the 2 tsp extra is going to alter the taste or anything!


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## JohnT (Apr 22, 2016)

I agree with barbiek. Bentonite is an insoluble mineral and should not really affect the taste of the wine. Adding more is not really a problem. the only negative might be a slight chance that you may need to add an additional racking at some point.


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## WineYooper (Apr 26, 2016)

My Cab Sauv is just about done fermenting, sg 1.008 and I still have in my primary with the lid loose, not snapped down. Ferment started on Friday morning and by the time I got home from work the sg had dropped already to 1.076 from start at 1.085. Did not add anything to adjust the sg from measured start point. The first day was the most action I saw with about .5 to .75 in of foam. After that all I saw was shimmering surface with lots of tiny bubbles. Sure is different than country fruit wine. Will rack tomorrow night when I get home, to secondary, stirred tonight and want to give it one night to settle some of the lees I may have stirred up. I did have to use the brew belt since it never got above 65 outside the whole time, only 46 out now. The temp I kept from 70 to 75, definitely liked the range and most action closer to 75. I did add the bentonite to begin with after reading more about it on the tutorials here. Am planning to add the oak to secondary, another first for me. The empty juice pail comes in handy for using my one step for cleaning, with the lid to keep the lady bugs out. So far a great experience. Cannot wait for sampling down the road. Thanks for all the input on this.


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## Pittsburgh127 (Apr 26, 2016)

I picked up 5 buckets at Luva Bella on April 9th. I brought them home, and let them sit in the basement wine making room over night with a small heater set to 76 degrees. The next day I popped the lids, stirred them well and added some oak chips to the cab franc, malbec and zin. Left the oak out of the barbera and pinot grigio. Vigorous fermentation kicked in by the next morning. With a daily stirring the cab frac, malbec and barbera were down to .992ish within a week and racked to carboys. The zin and pinot grigio took about 11 days to get below .996. All are quietly finishing their fermentation in glass carboys. Being my first attempt at juice buckets, I'm not certain how I'll procced from here. Vacuum degassing? Use a clearing agent? Long bulk aging? I dunno. Any suggestions?


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## Johnd (Apr 26, 2016)

Pittsburgh127 said:


> I picked up 5 buckets at Luva Bella on April 9th. I brought them home, and let them sit in the basement wine making room over night with a small heater set to 76 degrees. The next day I popped the lids, stirred them well and added some oak chips to the cab franc, malbec and zin. Left the oak out of the barbera and pinot grigio. Vigorous fermentation kicked in by the next morning. With a daily stirring the cab frac, malbec and barbera were down to .992ish within a week and racked to carboys. The zin and pinot grigio took about 11 days to get below .996. All are quietly finishing their fermentation in glass carboys. Being my first attempt at juice buckets, I'm not certain how I'll procced from here. Vacuum degassing? Use a clearing agent? Long bulk aging? I dunno. Any suggestions?



I'm doing a Zin right now from frozen grape must, it's racked, skins pressed, AF complete, and in carboy now undergoing MLF. When that's done, I'll sulfite it and let it sit until it clears, I'm adding nothing and am prepared to wait. It'll also get a turn in the barrel eventually. I don't care if I have to wait years. 

Mu pinot Grigio bucket, upon AF completion, was degassed with electric vacuum pump, sulfited, and I added chitosan, all about 4 days ago. It's clear as a bell halfway down and progressing well.


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## FTC Wines (Apr 27, 2016)

I picked up 3 juice buckets, 2 Cabs, one Malbec, from Prado Grapes in Riverview Fl on Sat. Added a tsp of tannin, a lb of organic raisins mushed, and a lb of store bought Chilean red grapes. Today, SG 1.055, I'm going to flavor pack /chaptilize with a qt of Home Winery Cab concentrate per Each 6 gal bucket. Hope this will kick up the results! Wasn't very impressed with my last/first bucket. Roy


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## WineYooper (Apr 27, 2016)

Pittsburg127, being my first time I elected to add the bentonite at start of ferment which will help clearing according to the tutorials on this site. If it were me I would add KMS and sorbate if you are going to backsweeten, if not, skip the sorbate. Depending on quantity of gross lees transferred from primary to secondary I would think about degassing and racking at this time, if not a lot was transferred I would think about degassing in the carboy, adding in the kms premixed in a small amount of water, especially if there is not much head space, this is where you could have a volcano if you just add powdered kms to carboy. Normally I add kms when I am racking from primary to secondary. My first racking after transfer to secondary is about 3 weeks but I judge by how much sediment I see in the bottom of carboy, if you degass well on racking to secondary you may not see as much drop out. Sorry if this is confusing, work is getting in the way. Will repost more later.


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## divertab2 (Apr 27, 2016)

Johnd said:


> I just got three pails, two frozen red musts (grapes and juice) and one frozen white (juice only). They were shipped frozen on a Wednesday, I received them on Friday, not frozen solid, more like slush. Put them into 7.9 gallon buckets and 24 hours later they were at 65 degrees. That's three days from frozen to fermenting temps, and it's 74 in my fermenting area.
> 
> Were it me, I'd get it, bring it home, transfer to fermenting buckets with loose lids or towels, and take the trip, it'll just be getting going when you return. Plenty time to stir.




Where did you get the juice from ? I must be missing those who ship?
Why the loose lids with towels? I always close the primary and either airlock or in the Chileans, use the port that comes with it


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## Johnd (Apr 27, 2016)

@divertab2,

Buckets are from Brehm Vineyards, a Zinfandel and Pinot Grigio from Sonoma. Nice service they have, grapes are destemmed and crushed into buckets and frozen, just thaw and continue the winemaking process from there. 

I ferment all my stuff with loose lids or towels just to keep stuff out of the must. Nothing wrong with fermenting under airlock, just not necessary til you transfer to a carboy to complete alcoholic fermentation.


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## Rodnboro (Apr 28, 2016)

FTC Wines said:


> I picked up 3 juice buckets, 2 Cabs, one Malbec, from Prado Grapes in Riverview Fl on Sat. Added a tsp of tannin, a lb of organic raisins mushed, and a lb of store bought Chilean red grapes. Today, SG 1.055, I'm going to flavor pack /chaptilize with a qt of Home Winery Cab concentrate per Each 6 gal bucket. Hope this will kick up the results! Wasn't very impressed with my last/first bucket. Roy


 
I picked up mine today from Jacksonville. Did you check the acid and sg on yours? Mine are still cool, but the Malbec checked 1.078 sg, .3 TA, and 3.9 ph. the Merlot checked 1.088 sg, .3 TA, and 3.7 ph.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 28, 2016)

Rodnboro said:


> I picked up mine today from Jacksonville. Did you check the acid and sg on yours? Mine are still cool, but the Malbec checked 1.078 sg, .3 TA, and 3.9 ph. the Merlot checked 1.088 sg, .3 TA, and 3.7 ph.



Does your pH meter compensate for temp?


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## Rodnboro (Apr 29, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Does your pH meter compensate for temp?




Actually no, I didn't think of that. I'm going to check it again this morning at room temp. Thanks


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## FTC Wines (Apr 29, 2016)

Rodnboro, my SG & PH was almost identical to yours. Didn't test TA. The raisins, grapes & Cab concentrate kicked up the SG to 1.104 ish. More in line to where I wanted to be. Ferment is going very strong, even at 67*. Smells wonderful, throughout the house! Roy


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## Floandgary (Apr 29, 2016)

Pittsburgh127 said:


> I picked up 5 buckets at Luva Bella on April 9th. I brought them home, and let them sit in the basement wine making room over night with a small heater set to 76 degrees. The next day I popped the lids, stirred them well and added some oak chips to the cab franc, malbec and zin. Left the oak out of the barbera and pinot grigio. Vigorous fermentation kicked in by the next morning. With a daily stirring the cab frac, malbec and barbera were down to .992ish within a week and racked to carboys. The zin and pinot grigio took about 11 days to get below .996. All are quietly finishing their fermentation in glass carboys. Being my first attempt at juice buckets, I'm not certain how I'll procced from here. Vacuum degassing? Use a clearing agent? Long bulk aging? I dunno. Any suggestions?



You've likely noticed that most who've been at this long enough to have a stock built up have learned and lean towards the TIME method. A year for most Reds is generally sufficient to naturally degas and clarify (rack-overs @3months). Nothing wrong with vacuum method if you have the equipment. Bucket juices/wines usually clear quite well by then too unless you've treated with (eg.) raisins, cherries, or other dried fruits. Your call and good luck!!


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## Pittsburgh127 (May 3, 2016)

Floandgary said:


> You've likely noticed that most who've been at this long enough to have a stock built up have learned and lean towards the TIME method. A year for most Reds is generally sufficient to naturally degas and clarify (rack-overs @3months). Nothing wrong with vacuum method if you have the equipment. Bucket juices/wines usually clear quite well by then too unless you've treated with (eg.) raisins, cherries, or other dried fruits. Your call and good luck!!



My current plan is to vacuum degas and then clarify with Super-Kleer KC. I think... I do have about 500 bottles in my wine racks right now, so I'm going to try bulk age this for at least six months or more. I think... LOL


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## thruhike00 (May 3, 2016)

Johnd said:


> @divertab2,
> 
> Buckets are from Brehm Vineyards, a Zinfandel and Pinot Grigio from Sonoma. Nice service they have, grapes are destemmed and crushed into buckets and frozen, just thaw and continue the winemaking process from there.
> 
> I ferment all my stuff with loose lids or towels just to keep stuff out of the must. Nothing wrong with fermenting under airlock, just not necessary til you transfer to a carboy to complete alcoholic fermentation.



John,

how many bottles do you think you end up with out of a bucket from Brehm?


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## Johnd (May 3, 2016)

thruhike00 said:


> John,
> 
> how many bottles do you think you end up with out of a bucket from Brehm?



My brix was 29ish on both pails, so I added nearly a gallon of acidulated water. As it stands today, I have racked off gross lees and am in MLF, one full carboy and a full 1/2 gallon glass jug. Without accounting for angels share in the barrel, I'm guessing 32 or 33 for two buckets, so 16 for 1. 

YMMV depending on Brix adjustments. If I get 30 after the barrel, I'll be happy.


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## trolo (May 4, 2016)

Pittsburgh127 said:


> My current plan is to vacuum degas and then clarify with Super-Kleer KC. I think... I do have about 500 bottles in my wine racks right now, so I'm going to try bulk age this for at least six months or more. I think... LOL



I have made well over 10 buckets of juice now and I suggest to age at least 6 months. I rack out of primary into Carboy and kmeta let sit for about a month then rack off again. The forget about it for about 4 months. The I rack and sorbate back sweeten if needed and clearifer I like isinglass. The sit for about 2 weeks then bottle. 

Please any corrections if I missed something haha. 
Tom


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## Johnd (May 4, 2016)

The Brehm buckets I did weren't juice buckets, they were grape must, grapes harvested, destemmed and crushed into buckets and frozen. If you're getting juice only buckets, your yield will be much higher than mine


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