# Bottling in glass juice bottles



## John Kimble (Oct 27, 2019)

Team,
I have a serious surplus of glass juice bottles with twist cap. I'm wondering if properly cleaned and sanitized can I bottle an aged wine in them? If so, and if anyone has first-hand experience doing this, how long can the wine be effectively kept, is there a higher oxygen permeation etc?
Image of bottle attached.


----------



## cmason1957 (Oct 27, 2019)

You can't seal that bottle up sufficiently to age wine in. At least I wouldn't try to.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 27, 2019)

Agree with @cmason1957 if you're using that twist cap. But if you had a stopper that fits, you could use that.


----------



## winointraining (Oct 29, 2019)

What about mason jars? Would they seal enought?


----------



## cmason1957 (Oct 29, 2019)

Don't all mason jars require heat to activate the seal?? Pretty much wine bottles are the only thing I am going to suggest someone try to age wine in. If you are storing it to drink next week, just about anything will work.


----------



## iridium (Oct 29, 2019)

Cmason1957 is correct. Mason jars must be boiled to create the proper vacuum seal for preservation. Just putting on the metal cap and ring won’t work for long term preservation.


----------



## Intheswamp (Oct 29, 2019)

Really? Unheated mason jars won't work? I'm a newbie and completely uneducated but it seems mason jars would work, in regards to the seal. I've used them for storing miscellaneous things through the years (other than canning meat in them) and many times when I go to open one there is definitely a seal on them...either a gasket seal of sorts or a slight vacuum seal. 

When corking a wine bottle with a natural cork it is understood that the aging process incorporates an exchange of gases and oxygen. So, if the mason jar leaked a tiny bit of air (in either direction)...well, so do corks. Besides, the heating of mason jars in canning is really different than storing an alcoholic beverage in them...deadly bacteria such as E coli is a reason for the heating beyond the boiling point. High-acid water bath canning depends primarily on the acidic environment to control bacteria. The vacuum seal is to insure no outside, possibly deadly, bacteria enters the jar. With wine the acid range easily falls within the range of water bath qualified vegetables and fruits. With the wine's acid content along with its alcohol content it seems that it is somewhat self-preserving, better than water bath canned vegetables even, other than the vacuum seal. Corks don't create a vacuum...except momentarily when you remove them from the bottle.

In my area I've seen everything from shine to wine in mason jars. Maybe what I have experienced has not aged for ten years in the jars, but there again I see corks advertised as only being "Good for 2 years". When we age in a 1-gallon jug with an airlock on it, there, too, we don't have a heated/vacuum seal. I guess it might depend on the length of time you're planning on bottle aging.

The one thing I would be concerned with is the much wider air/wine contact area in the jar compared to a bottle. But, as for seal itself, I'm not looking for a vacuum. 

Just my two cents worth and definitely subject to ridicule, correction, slaps on the wrist, accusations of blasphemy, and agreement.


----------



## Johnd (Oct 29, 2019)

Wonder if you might just use your juice jars with the caps applied as tightly as you can, and dip them in bottle sealing wax. Might be an inexpensive solution, but I don't know about the O2 permeability of wax sealing.....


----------



## bshef (Oct 29, 2019)

Wax sealing is hit or miss. My mother tried to seal wine with wax. Didn’t work so well.


----------



## Intheswamp (Oct 29, 2019)

Maybe some heatshrink bands to seal the lids. Here's some on Amazon. A possible issue is the perforation...you might look further and find some non-perforated ones...
https://www.amazon.com/PRINTED-Perforated-Cosmetic-Compatible-Diameter/dp/B07CT7XHYP/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?hvadid=77927986713488&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=b&keywords=heat+shrink+clear+bands&qid=1572380383&sr=8-12-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExREYwVkNJQjU3TVlMJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTY0MzY0QzNRNEJINE9WMlQ5JmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA0MjMzMDMxSjdTRUpFVzBYWjRQJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1


----------



## iridium (Oct 29, 2019)

@Intheswamp You actually raise some good points. In fact i think most of your post is agreeable. Those points bring up two other things to consider. First while a band and a lid may work, we don't necessarily know whether the oxygen transfer is at the same rate as a cork. If it is more that could be a problem for long term storage. Second, is the opposite problem. Since it appears advantageous for micro gas exchange to occur, a mason jar may prevent that. As you point out you store a lot of items in mason jars and there always appears to be a vacuum created. That may create a situation where no gas exchange can occur. So that could be a problem.

Regardless, I admit to having no first hand knowledge of mason jar storage or glass juice bottle storage. I have been able to scrounge enough bottles for my needs.


----------



## CDrew (Oct 29, 2019)

Wine bottles and corks are well proven for 500 years. I'm waiting for something better, but for sure, Mason jars and recycled juice containers are not it. Mason jars are fine for jellies and jams and preserves and other cool stuff but not wine.

Would you really want to pull out a Mason jar of wine at Christmas dinner?

This is a weird conversation. Fine wine, and Mason jars are hard to use in the same sentence, just sayin'


----------



## Intheswamp (Oct 29, 2019)

I did not know that we were talking fine wine and Christmas dinner. The OP asked about possibly recycling juice bottles to age wine in. This was seen as something negative. An option of using mason jars for a better seal was offered. Now, it has progressed to "fine wine" and "Christmas dinner". Yes, a weird conversation.


----------



## Intheswamp (Oct 29, 2019)

Hmmm, maybe use animal organs to age it in? 

"That's right, Mr. Martini. There is an Easter Bunny."


----------



## Rice_Guy (Oct 30, 2019)

The juice jar will work for wine storage. The limitation on the cap is that it is a fairly thin (20 gauge? ) steel with an enamel coating on it. The steel will eventually rust through, with moist cellar conditions I would give it less than five years. With dry air conditioned warehouse we would rate it as ten to twenty years. The comments about wax are useful since this will delay rust, Rustolium on the outside would also delay rusting through.

The plastic seal on the inside of the cap will have lost some of its spring. Yes there will be a percentage of the caps which are capable of leaking when reused. From a practical point of view less than 1/10 and more than 1/100. If the bottle could be stored on side without dripping it is good. The tightness of the twist and smoothness of the glass lip will be the issue. If I was concerned I might wrap with silicone fusion tape, not dip in wax.

Oxidation is always an issue with wine. I would keep the ullage low, as 1/4 to 1/8 inch. (this lowers the risk of oxidation below what a bottle with 1.5 inch ullage has) The risk from 1/8 inch ullage will be acids in the wine penetrating a pore on the enamel and rusting on the cap. (Wine screw caps typically have a plastic liner) The normal capping line spares steam into the ullage as the cap is applied which pulls a vacuum as it cools. Vacuum works magic! If you can figure out how to pull a slight vacuum your bad seals rate should be in the range of 1/100,000.

The steel in mason jars lids is similar to what we would use in a factory setting. As with juice caps the long term risk is rusting through.


----------



## Rice_Guy (Oct 30, 2019)

The rubber on the rim is the primary reason they are sealed. The vacuum created in the head space is the primary reason mason jars have sealing rates in the range of 99,999 per 100,000 and factory produced jars are per million.


cmason1957 said:


> Don't all mason jars require heat to activate the seal?? Pretty much wine bottles are the only thing I am going to suggest someone try to age wine in. If you are storing it to drink next week, just about anything will work.


The FDA rule is an acid food, pH 4 or less, which is held for 10 minutes above 100C is considered commercially sterile. We hot fill and then run a ten minute steam tunnel to “sterilize” the jar and lid.


----------



## Intheswamp (Oct 30, 2019)

I might do a little fact finding. I live in my paternal grandparents old house. I actually have some old mason jars with canned goods in them that my grandmother put up. These jars are easily pushing 40 years old by now (more likely over 50 years old)...we've lived here for over 30 years. The jars are in the very top of some tall kitchen cabinets and I just haven't needed the space so they've just sat there all this time. Peering into them it seems that the contents have all gone to liquid...I have no idea what was in them, though my grandmother did make the occasional jug of blackberry wine.  I may just have to open one of those jars and see how the lid looks on the inside. I think I'll do this outdoors with gloves and maybe even a mask...botulism is a real thing and I've managed to stay alive for this long, why risk it? 

I used to get shine from an old fella that ran with my maternal grandfather years ago. He was younger than my grandfather so kind of tagged along with him. My grandfather died way before I was born and other than "family" stories about him this old fella and one more old fella let me in on other "aspects" of my grandfathers life.  The old fella once told me that you never knew where you'd end up when you got in the car with my granddaddy. He said one time he got on the car and ended up in a town probably 40 miles away...a fair distance back in the 1930-40's. The next time he got on the car with my granddaddy he said they ended up in Orlando, Florida...400 miles away!<GRIN> My grandfather was a bootlegger...the old fella turned into the predominate moonshiner for the area and made excellent whiskey. He went as far as to haul charred kegs back from Tennessee(?)...good "charred" whiskey! Anyhow, the old moonshiner has been dead for a couple of decades now and *if* I still had some of that rye whiskey squirreled back it would be well over 30 years old and *probably* be *very* good!!!  He bottled it in gallon jugs with a metal cap. I would drag the jug out on special occasions (what I deemed "special"<grin>) and share a drink with friends...or just myself.<g> After about 15 years of storage I noticed a tiny dark spot on the white lid...it ended up being rust. So, in this situation around 15 years was the life of one of those juice jug lids. Fair enough, I guess. I replaced the lid and the universe clicked along fine thereafter. Anyhow, with a lot of added info, that's my little rusted lid story.


----------



## Rice_Guy (Oct 30, 2019)

In the swamp, ,
* botulism will not grow in the pH in wine, it requires higher than 4.0
* botulism requires an anaerobic environment, this is possible since we work to exclude oxygen and add reducing agents as meta. In the lab we would grow clostridium in CO2
* botulism will not grow in 8% alcohol, don’t know the lower cut off but think beer 5% is safe too
* botulism will not grow in high osmotic pressure, ie jelly and jam and phosphate/ salt cured foods
* the SO2 typical in wine will prevent the growth of most microorganisms
ie there isn’t a botulism risk.
Oxidation , acetaldehyde , change of flavor are expected risks , , , . but they won’t kill you. Awful lot of rules the FDA makes us follow,


----------



## Intheswamp (Oct 31, 2019)

Er, I don't think I implied there was a problem with botulism in wine. 

Good information, though, Rice_Guy. Thanks for sharing it!


----------



## sour_grapes (Oct 31, 2019)

Intheswamp said:


> Er, I don't think I implied there was a problem with botulism in wine.



Well, FWIW, I thought you (may have) implied that!



> I have no idea what was in them, though my grandmother did make the occasional jug of blackberry wine.  I may just have to open one of those jars and see how the lid looks on the inside. I think I'll do this outdoors with gloves and maybe even a mask...botulism is a real thing and I've managed to stay alive for this long, why risk it?


----------



## Intheswamp (Nov 1, 2019)

My bad. I shouldn't have mentioned my grandmother making wine in the same conversation with botulism. The canning jars I'm pretty sure were vegetables and fruits. There are still some jars with what looks like small round fruit in them. Some of the liquid stuff may be soup stock of some sort...I just mentioned the wine part as there might be a surprise in one of the jars. Who knows?


----------



## Scooter68 (Nov 1, 2019)

The combination of acidity, alcohol, and the delicate flavors of wine - just don't seem to mix with using a metal lid and a seal that might degrade in prolonged contact with the first two. Anything that comes off that metal or that rubber sealing material is going to be in your wine. Wine bottles are not that hard to come by that I need to resort to canning jars or other bottles.

We aren't talking about moonshine and it's 'delicate' flavor, we are talking about wines that are a bit more subtly flavored.


----------



## bshef (Nov 1, 2019)

I suggest recycle the juice bottles and put aged wine in wine bottles with corks. Too much time and effort has gone into the wine to chance with juice bottles.


----------



## Intheswamp (Nov 1, 2019)

Well, I agree...wine seems proper in a corked wine bottle laying in an incline rack in a cool grotto in the southlands of France. But that wasn't the gest of the OP's post. I think it was more along the lines of making use of what something already on hand. I've got no argument that a properly corked wine bottle is better.


----------

