# muscadine wine



## smack (Sep 7, 2010)

on this, my first attempt, i've been following the instructions on youtube(address below) for making muscadine wine, with a few (rookie) deviations.

i did not freeze the muscadines first, though in all my reading that didn't seem too necessary of a step. in the part of the instructions where it says to add additional water to get the initial volume to five gallons, i only had to add about three or four cups (plus the gallon for the sugar water makes 1.25 gallons total added water). The initial SG at this point was 1.145. this particular set of instructions says to squeeze and remove the pulp bag once the SG is 1.040, though i've read a few others with similar instructions varying between 1.020 and 1.040. 

at any rate, today it was 1.035 so i squeezed and squeezed and squeezed (and squeezed and squeezed and squeezed) and used every method i could conjure to extract the maximum juice from my massive pulp bag. In the process i may have been a tad lax in sterilization of various equipment, a lapse which i now pray wont bite me in the rear. i'm left with roughly three and a half gallons of must, which i racked today from my primary stone crock into a five gallon glass carboy. actually it may be incorrect to call it racking as i definitely boogered that step of the process up, and managed to siphon just about all of the sediment into the glass *shaking head* (new guys). 

in this set of video instructions it says to remove the bag, rack into glass to "complete fermentation" but to leave plenty of headroom until fermentation has completed. this is in stark contrast to most instructions which say no headroom; however, these instructions do go on to say that once fermentation is complete, to add five crushed campden tablets and two and a half teaspoons of sorbate, and then rack into a carboy with no headroom and fit an airlock. this i assume to be the step everyone agrees on, but my first question is: why might this author move into a glass carboy with plenty of headroom, how does he know when fermentation has completed (no bubbles i suppose?), and should i have an airlock on the carboy while fermentation is completing in this step, day eight, where there is still plenty of headroom (as opposed to cheese cloth which was on the primary)? this author is specific about adding an airlock after the wine is stabilized and ready for clearing, so it would surprise me if he left out the instructions to employ an airlock now.

question two (i know that was like three questions already but bear with me): i used enough sugar and grapes for this "five gallons" of wine recipe, but i find myself now with only three and a half gallons. should i worry about adding that much water, or can i consider that i should have added this much from the get go. if so i guess i will have no way of determining the alcohol content since my initial SG was based on a must with inadequate water. i don't see myself buying a gallon and a half of comparable wine, and i fear that if i add that much grape juice, i wont know how this wine was _meant_ to taste. i guess my real question is, should i go ahead and add a lot of water now, or should i just get a three gallon carboy?

whew, i know. thats more than anyone here probably wanted to read. if you've gotten this far, i thank you sincerely.

as a newbie, i'm not allowed to post websites or urls on here, so to see the instructions that i've been following, either search youtube for muscadine wine (its the first one that comes up) or after the .com, add /watch?v=jFjgvRa1SmQ to the url


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## smack (Sep 7, 2010)

*oh*


you know, when i read in the instructions that the SG should be 1.090 or higher i thought, great. i'm way higher, nailed it! i'm seeing now that is not the case. when i use the rooftop brew abv calculator i seem to already be at 14.7% abv. the yeast i used was lalvin icv-d47, which has an alcohol tolerance of 14%. . . does that mean mines about to die? its definitely still bubbling. maybe i should get water in there tout de suite.


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2010)

Okay, wow! Trying to figure out where to start. Welcome to our site and will do my best to answer all your questions here. First off that starting sg was Wayyyyyyyyyy to high unless you were trying to make a Port style wine which is a wine with a very high abv. the problem with most recipes out there is that they call form a certain amount of sugar, they should always state to adjust up to a starting sg of about 1.085 or there abouts. I dont have access to those grapes around here so Im not really sure if you added to much sugar or not enough water but either way the only real way to fix this now would be to make another batch of this with a much lower starting gravity and blend the 2 once they were all done fermenting and after stabilization meaning once sulfite and sorbate were added after sg has been stable for a few days. There are two parts of a fermentation, the first part is called aerobic meaning that 02 is needed and beneficial to the fermentation so as the yeast cells could multiply and grow the yeast colony and this takes place during the first few days or basically until the sg has done about 2/3rds of its job. This part of fermentation is best with no airlock on and instead a loose lid or cloth over the vessel or just something to prevent any bugs from getting in. This can also be done with an airlock on but it must be opened a few times a day to stir and get 02 into the wine. Once that has happened and the sg is typically down to about 1.025 or there abouts the fermentation changes and it becomes anaerobic meaning that 02 should be suspended thus making the yeast change their job from multiplying and instead turning their attention more to turning the sugar into alc. This part is best done with a airlock on to slow down the multiplication of the yeast and also to create a cap (blanket) of gas to protect the wine from any oxidation once its actually done fermenting. While its still fermenting its fine to have a space in this vessel as C0 is being produced which will displace any 02 thus protecting your wine and also because this fermentation can still be violent thus needing the extra space in there so as not to over flow your carboy. Do not water this down to fill the vessel as this would be a big mistake and render your wine very flavorless and diluted. At this point you either have to blend it like I stated above or let it age a long time letting the hotness of this wine settle down. Since this batch is now smaller then it was supposed to be you only want to add 1 campden tablet per gallon as to what you have now once its done fermenting and with the very high starting gravity that you had if you correctly took that which Ill get into in a brief second then Im guessing you are gong to have a wine that is going to stop fermenting earlier then what is normal. A typical fermentation would stop around .990 - 1.000, if it stops earlier then that then you have either exhausted the yeast strain by overcoming its tolerance of alc or have a stuck fermentation due to improper balance with ph or acid or possibly also have to cool or too hot of a temp for the yeast. As far as taking a correct starting gravity you really have to dissolve all the sugars very well and stir the batch really well before taking a reading. Its actually pretty hard to get an accurate reading if you didnt violently stir the wine in which most of us use a drill mounted stirrer to do so. Not violently stirring will lead to usually a very high sg or a very low sg as these two levels of liquid dont want to blend easily. Hope this helps and I hope I answered all of the above questions but didnt be afraid to ask more if I didnt or if you have more.


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2010)

As I stated in that long winded post you are most likely going to have a problem with this fermentation or your initial reading was wrong so lets hope it was just your initial reading!


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## smack (Sep 7, 2010)

yeah, when i read the instructions to add water until the liquid level is five gallons, i added it with my strainer bag in there. that thing was the size of a basketball, which should have clued me in that i shouldn't have included its volume in my five gallons. this also made it difficult to "stir vigorously" although i punched the cap several times and stirred it swiftly, i gather that this was inadequate for my initial SG reading. if i had added much more water at the beginning, the SG would have decreased (and the taste diluted too, right?) but at this point it would have a different, less desirable, effect? 
ok, so if i do nothing: 
a) the initial SG reading was wrong, it stops fermenting when its supposed to, i add sorbate and campden tablets, rack a couple of times, bottle, everything is hunky dory. 
b) the initial SG reading was correct, it stops fermenting early, i add sorbate and campden tablets, rack several times, adding campden tablets every few months to the carboy, bottle after a year (?), and i've got a sporty (if unpalatable) wine. is this how to go about making a port as you mentioned or would that have involved some different steps?
woe is me


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2010)

If its still fermenting and your sure you didnt add enough water then it could be safe as to do so now but very gradually. Im just aftraid to tell you to do so not knowing if thats the true case cause if its not you will pretty much ruin this batch! It might be a good idea to try and take a taste now to try and determine if its very strong in flavor or if it tastes about right for what you would want. You are correct about adding 1 campden tablet per gallon and 1/2 tsp of sorbate per gallon once it is determined that it has stopped fermenting by taking a few sg readings over a few dys and the sg is not dropping at all. Is it possible for you to get more of these muscadines as if it ferments out and you have a lot of alc you can sweeten it back by adding the juice of these berries if it needs more flavo or you can sweeten it back by making a simple syrup consisting of 1 cup of boiling water and 2 cups of sugar dissolved in that boiling water and once its cooled down you add this to your stabilized wine and this will help takme the high abv.


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## smack (Sep 7, 2010)

well, as it's my first time, i can't be _sure_ that i didn't add enough water, just that the instructions i attempted to follow:

-as you process [the grapes] pour into a strainer bag you have in your primary fermenter, capturing the pulp and letting the juice run into the fermenter.
-once you are through processing, tie off the strainer bag, crush 5 campden tablets, dissolve into some lukewarm water, adding to your must. stir well and let sit for 12-18 hours.
-add pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, and calcium carbonate, stir well and let sit another 12 hours.
-boil a gallon of water, dissolve sugar, let cool to room temperature, add to must stirring vigorously as you add additional water to bring the liquid level to five gallons. 

i'm wondering if this is the part that i misinterpreted. all the while that these instructions had been scrolling across the powerpoint video there was a photo of the must in a fermenter with the strainer bag floating in it, so i didn't think that five gallons of liquid meant to somehow remove the bag to gauge the quantity of liquid only. its very clearly supposed to make five gallons though, so thats why i'm leaning towards adding the water. i also dont want to ruin the batch.


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## smack (Sep 7, 2010)

Wade E said:


> It might be a good idea to try and take a taste now to try and determine if its very strong in flavor or if it tastes about right for what you would want.



i tasted some per your advice, although it was a bit of an exercise in futility. i've never had muscadine wine before so it just tasted new to me, not sure if its strong or not. definitely sweeter than any wine i've had before. i'm sure it would be an easy assessment for your palate.


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## smack (Sep 7, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Is it possible for you to get more of these muscadines as if it ferments out and you have a lot of alc you can sweeten it back by adding the juice of these berries if it needs more flavo or you can sweeten it back by making a simple syrup consisting of 1 cup of boiling water and 2 cups of sugar dissolved in that boiling water and once its cooled down you add this to your stabilized wine and this will help takme the high abv.



i should be able to get more of the muscadines without trouble for at least a few more weeks. now, are you saying that if the wine tastes too strongly of alcohol, then add the juice, or add water (thus diluting the taste) and then add the juice to resweeten it? 

sorry so many questions. i don't think i'm going to do anything tonight and i've got a long long day tomorrow so i suppose we'll see what happens with the SG tomorrow evening.

out of curiosity, if i were to go the route of adding the water now, what would i need to do to prepare the water?


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2010)

As for the tasting bit did it seem weak in flavo or very strong in grape flavor? If very strong then Id feel safe with you adding some water. If not then Id leave it alone. What I mean by getting more fruit is especially if you water it down and end up with a weaker profile then you want you can make a flavor pac to add back to your wine once its finisihed fermenting and has been stablized with both sulfite and sorbate. What some of us do if our wine ends up needing more flavor is this

Take 20-30% of the amount of fruit used in fermentation...

Simmer on stove about 20 min (low simmer)

Strain.....

Simmer down liquid by 2/3rds, let it cool and then add back to the wine and dgeas the wine and let it start clearing by either time or by adding an ingredient called a fining agent which makes your wine clear faster.


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2010)

If I were to add water Id probably use spring water from a store.


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## CSIJon (Sep 7, 2010)

Smack, I am really glad you posted what you did. I too followed the same youtube video, and was unclear on some of it. I used about 40lbs of muscadines and got less than 3 gallons of juice I dont have a press so I did it the hard way with hands and a gallon bag with rolling pin. I did try the bucket homemade press method but it did not work too well. Where it stated to add water to bring up to the 5 gallon mark, I did this with out the mesh bag. Like you said the bag was rather large. It made a displacement of 1.5 gallons. I added 10lbs of sugar mixed with a gallon of water. This was based on my starting SG of 1.040. Once the sugar and water were added and topped off to 5 gallons, my SG was 1.100. My acid was a little on the low side and I hope that does not hurt me too bad. I pitched my yeast last night and about 18hrs later it is going strong. I have been gently stirring. This is my first batch from real fruit, so we will see. I will keep checking in.


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## smack (Sep 8, 2010)

yeah, i think i'm going to get some spring water and add it tonight (gonna be about 10pm when i get home). i hope that it isn't too late at that point. the yeast is still bubbling good. hopefully i'll get to it before the yeast dies off from too high an abv. i have to rerack the thing to get rid of my inch of sediment from yesterdays debacle anyway.


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## smack (Sep 8, 2010)

Wade E said:


> If I were to add water Id probably use spring water from a store.


oh yeah, i meant to point out that i used 30 lbs of muscadines and 10 lbs of sugar. does that sound like a proper 5 gallon recipe or would that have made a weak 5 gallon flavor?


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## myakkagldwngr (Sep 8, 2010)

I'll be interested in seeing how your's turns out. I too have a muscadine going. I started with 37 pounds of grapes that I crushed and added pectin enzyme to.
I ended up with a starting SG of 1.061.
I only added 5 cups of sugar in 6 cups of water.
I ended up with a SG of 1.075. I let it ferment down to 1.02 then I pressed all I could from my bags (2) I ended up with 3 gallons of must. So I now have it in a 3 gallon carboy. It has slowed down fermenting quite a bit.


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## smack (Sep 9, 2010)

i'm curious, if the abv is above the yeast's tolerance, how long would the high alcohol content take to snuff it out. i only ask because the airlock releases gas about every five seconds, so i wonder if it lends support to the theory that the initial SG was inaccurate.


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## gesnipes (Oct 3, 2010)

smack said:


> i should be able to get more of the muscadines without trouble for at least a few more weeks. now, are you saying that if the wine tastes too strongly of alcohol, then add the juice, or add water (thus diluting the taste) and then add the juice to resweeten it?
> 
> sorry so many questions. i don't think i'm going to do anything tonight and i've got a long long day tomorrow so i suppose we'll see what happens with the SG tomorrow evening.
> 
> out of curiosity, if i were to go the route of adding the water now, what would i need to do to prepare the water?



The video you referenced is the one I used to get started on muscadine wine. It is really easy, so even with your mistakes, it should turn out well. I've been making muscadine wine for 3 years now and every batch turns out great. Like you, I have never frozen my muscadines. In fact, I never add chemicals - including camden tablets. I try to go sulfite free on all my wines. 

Your first batch is probably done by now - my September batch is. The method I have been using is to fill a 6 gallon bucket with muscadines. I boil mine (since I don't use sulfites. I make sure every muscadine is busted. After boiling, I dump into a 6 gallon primary using a straining cloth to capture the pulp. I add 10 lbs of sugar and pectic enzymes. After 3-5 days (depending on fermentation), I strain and move to a carboy. I leave room at the top to add water later when I sweeten. When fermentation slows, I sample. I then sweeten to taste. When the fermentation completely stops, I sweeten again if it is needed. Then I rack. Afterwards I clarify as needed. 

In the final stages, I filter using vacuum pumping through a clarifying filter. This is after the normal clarification. Then I either move to gallon jugs or I bottle. 

It always turns out great and everyone begs for more. Muscadine wine is my single favorite wine. My preference is to NOT use potassiam sorbate. Most people do, but I don't. It causes a higher alcohol wine since the yeast has to hit its tolerance level to stop fermenting, but a little aging and it is smooth - and potent. If you want a lower alcohol content, then you will have to use chemicals. 

Even without chemicals, the wine will keep indefinitely. I have several bottles from 2008, and it is to die for. I use it for Christmas presents, and people ask for more. It is a very good wine. And easy to make.


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## Julie (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi gesnipes,

How big of a carboy do you rack into? Was wondering how much wine you would get from a 6 gallon bucket full of muscadines.


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## smack (Oct 3, 2010)

gesnipes said:


> It is really easy, so even with your mistakes, it should turn out well.



thanks for your vote of support. i caught another curve ball, got orders to little rock arkansas for three months. i left three full carboys with my wife back at home, she's not quite as enthusiastic about this hobby (yet). i figure it wont hurt a bit to let them ferment to dry and just sit in carboys till christmas. when i get home i'll decide whether to degas, sorbate, sulfite, or just to keep letting it all sit. i'll be interested to see how it clears on its own.

i've read some people that say the wine will degas and clear all on its own if you just give it enough time. on the other hand, waldo, the author of this muscadine recipe, recommended to me that i degas and sorbate anyway to eliminate the risk of fermentation restarting. i don't think that will be a risk on the first batch since it is so sweet and such high abv. i think my only concern will be trying to lower the TA. i guess i didn't add enough calcium carbonate at the beginning because TA is between .9 and .95. my second batch i did a little better at somewhere between .8 and .9. 
gesnipes, what is your finished TA usually at?

when i left, my first batch was down to 1.002 SG, it had slowed down quite a bit because the abv was so high (initial SG 1.145), but still slowly bubbling. my second batch was down to .998 since it was pretty much exactly according to the recipe (starting SG 1.090) and the third batch was only a week old. i kinda miss my yeast right now. . . i got used to having something bubbling away in the house. now i'm kind of bored.


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## gesnipes (Oct 3, 2010)

Julie said:


> Hi gesnipes,
> 
> How big of a carboy do you rack into? Was wondering how much wine you would get from a 6 gallon bucket full of muscadines.



I've done both 5 and 6 gallon carboys. Both turn out very good. As you can imagine, the 5 gallon is a little richer, but the difference isn't very noticeable.


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## gesnipes (Oct 3, 2010)

smack said:


> i've read some people that say the wine will degas and clear all on its own if you just give it enough time. on the other hand, waldo, the author of this muscadine recipe, recommended to me that i degas and sorbate anyway to eliminate the risk of fermentation restarting. i don't think that will be a risk on the first batch since it is so sweet and such high abv. i think my only concern will be trying to lower the TA. i guess i didn't add enough calcium carbonate at the beginning because TA is between .9 and .95. my second batch i did a little better at somewhere between .8 and .9.
> gesnipes, what is your finished TA usually at?



My TA is usually between .7 and .9. 

Muscadine, in my opinion, is better as a sweet wine. The flavor comes through better when sweet. However, letting it ferment on its own for 3 months is fine. Fermentation might kick in a little when you sweeten it later.

If you don't mind high alcohol, skip the potasium sorbate. I like to keep chemicals at a minimum, so I don't use sorbate or sulphites. I have 2 year old bottled muscadine wine, and it tastes better than when I first started drinking it in 2008. It keeps well and because I let it ferment until the yeast reaches its tolerance, there is no need of sorbate. I try to keep it a healthy wine.

This is my third year winemaking, and I have never fouled a batch yet.


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## n2tazmania (Nov 12, 2010)

Just joined and was reading through some of the posts here. I am making my first batch of muscadine wine this year and I started out with a s.g. of 1.08. I let it work for 7 days in my primary and then it has been in the secondary for 3 weeks. I just added the fining and sorbate and took another reading and it is 1.02. Is this too high of a s.g.? I read several posts that says wine should be less than 1.00. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first go at wine making.


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## gesnipes (Nov 12, 2010)

n2tazmania said:


> Just joined and was reading through some of the posts here. I am making my first batch of muscadine wine this year and I started out with a s.g. of 1.08. I let it work for 7 days in my primary and then it has been in the secondary for 3 weeks. I just added the fining and sorbate and took another reading and it is 1.02. Is this too high of a s.g.? I read several posts that says wine should be less than 1.00. Any help would be appreciated. This is my first go at wine making.



It will be a sweet wine, but that's not a big deal as long as the abv (alcohol by volume) is high enough. 

In my opinion, muscadine wine is better as a sweet wine. I always back sweeten it. Plus I go for a high abv.


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## Julie (Nov 13, 2010)

Hi n2tazmania

Welcome to winemakingtalk. Can you post your recipe and what you did? 1.020 is high to be done fermenting. It really needs to go down below 1.000 and then you can backsweeten it. Since you added sorbate I don't think you are going to be able to get your sg any lower but muscadine is good as a sweet wine.


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## n2tazmania (Nov 13, 2010)

*recipe*

Here is what I used.

2 qt juice from muscadines
2 qt water
6 cups sugar
pectic
yeast nutrient
1 pack yeast that came with kit

Disolved sugar in water. Mixed all ingredients but yeast for 24 hours. Added yeast and stirred daily for 7 days. Racked over to my secondary and capped. It had been sitting for 3 weeks and had stop bubbling. Racked again and added gelatin finings and sorbate yesterday. Degassed once yesterday and once today.

s.g. was 1.080 when I started
s.g. was 1.020 yesterday

If I figured it right, my abv should be ~7.87%. Is that high enough?

So will it be undrinkable?

I have two other batches that are still going. Both were racked from primary to secondary 2 weeks ago and they are still bubbling. Thanks for the help.


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## gesnipes (Nov 13, 2010)

n2tazmania said:


> Here is what I used.
> s.g. was 1.080 when I started
> s.g. was 1.020 yesterday
> 
> ...



For future reference, visual bubbling isn't a good indicator of when fermentation is complete. Chances are, the yeast were still active when you stopped it with sorbate. Check the SG once a day for three days. If the reading is the same, fermentation is complete. 

As far as being drinkable, let your tastebuds decide. Sample it and see if it's good. Based on your starting and ending SG, you are probably between 7.5 and 8% alcohol. That's enough for a lightweight wine and will probably be enough to stabalize. It won't be a great wine, but it should be good enough to drink.


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## n2tazmania (Nov 14, 2010)

*update*

I checked my other two batches today. They were both racked to the secondary carboy at the same time. One is at s.g. .990 and the other is at 1.020. My questions are

1. Is it time to add sorbate and gelatin finings to the batch that is at .990 or should I let it continue?

2. Do I continue to let the 1.020 batch ferment and keep a check on the s.g. or should I do something to it?


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## Wade E (Nov 14, 2010)

The one that is down to .990 it is time to degas it and stabilize with k-meta and also sorbate if you plan on sweetening. As to the batch that is sgtill fermenting, did you use any nutrient or is the temp cool ? If its cool fermenting then its time to warm it up as its near the end and if you want to make sure it ferments all the way which I highly recommend. If yu did not use any nutrient or not much it may need it to get it to where it needs to be.


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## smack (Nov 16, 2010)

so just to make sure i understand, you always back sweeten, but never add sorbate or k-meta before doing so? do you bulk age? use a fine filter? how many rackings? keep the bottled wine especially cold? just curious how you've made sure that fermentation doesn't restart without sorbate and k-meta. thanks in advance for the info. 


gesnipes said:


> It will be a sweet wine, but that's not a big deal as long as the abv (alcohol by volume) is high enough.
> 
> In my opinion, muscadine wine is better as a sweet wine. I always back sweeten it. Plus I go for a high abv.


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## gesnipes (Nov 20, 2010)

smack said:


> so just to make sure i understand, you always back sweeten, but never add sorbate or k-meta before doing so? do you bulk age? use a fine filter? how many rackings? keep the bottled wine especially cold? just curious how you've made sure that fermentation doesn't restart without sorbate and k-meta. thanks in advance for the info.



The only way to guarantee it won't start fermentation after sweetening is to use sorbate. I keep mine in 1 gallon jugs and drink them as a go. If I were going to bottle, sorbate is probably a good idea.

If I'm going to use kmeta or sorbate, I do it before I backsweeten. You can do it afterward, but since the yeast isn't dormant, sometimes it takes a while for fermentation to stop. For me, it's easier to do this after the wine is stablized.


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