# Persimmon wine variations



## Stressbaby

Several years ago we moved to a house with the largest persimmon tree (Diospyros virginiana) I've ever seen. We've made bread and cookies from the fruit in the past but I always told myself I'd make wine someday. 

The yield varies from year to year, but as luck would have it, this year, the year I started winemaking, this tree has one of the heaviest yields in memory. Also one of the earliest...a month ahead of schedule. Three days ago it started raining ripe persimmons and over the past 3 nights I've gathered just under 30# of ripe persimmons. The tree is still absolutely loaded with fruit. If I can keep up I should end up with >100# of persimmons.

So my question is this: what are some variations of a basic persimmon wine recipe? Google shows the Jack Keller recipe of course, and most links are pretty close to that same recipe. I found one that used saffron, that sounded interesting. I'm willing to try something that is untested...I should have plenty of fruit to experiment with. I'm interested in any and all ideas.

Thanks.

Robert


----------



## Gowers Choice

We made an experimental one gallon batch last night. Used half sugar and half honey, and Pasteur Red yeast. Finished it about 11 last night. Checked the water filled vent bottle this morning for signs of bubbles/fermentation and didn't see any. Then noticed the vent tube wasn't in the bottle. Next I noticed the cork and vent tube were not on the one gallon carboy. It was then my wife said OMG LOOK AT THE CEILING. The batch blew it's cork some time in the night and there is now persimmon mung stuck to the ceiling in my kitchen.


----------



## roadwarriorsvt

If you are just starting a wine, it may be best to use a food grade primary (bucket). Yeasts need oxegen at this stage. Once your wine is approaching dry, transfer to a gallon jug with an air lock. The ceilings stay cleaner this way! Haha


----------



## saramc

I have not made my persimmon batch yet...waiting on the fruit to be ready here. BUT, I am thinking about either mading a mead vs wine and adding vanilla or ginger. Those two additions are a few of my favorites when enjoying persimmons.
Will watch this post with interest!
Stressbaby--where are you geographically that your persimmons are ready so soon?


----------



## BobF

I've not done this wine.

Any time I do a new wine, I like to do it as straight up as possible. Usually a small, 3g batch.

This lets me assess the wine on it's own with a good base of experience to build on for future batches. This also leaves the opportunity to blend with other wines, backsweeten with a variety of juices, etc. without other ingredients getting in the way.

I would start by collecting/freezing as much as possible. Test a sample of the juice for pH, TA and sugar. Taste the skins for tannin.

Plan your batch and make adjustments based on these results aiming for little to no water additions.

There is a common opinion that Keller's recipes are light on fruit and high on alcohol. Keep this in mind.

Above all, keep us posted on progress and results!


----------



## Stressbaby

GC,
Ouch, sorry about that!

saramc,
I am in central Missouri. We had spring 3 weeks early and severe drought.

I like those ideas, I had thought of maybe some combination of cinnamon/vanilla/allspice/clove or maybe orange/citrus. 

I will post my trials here. Is the general approach to make these additions to the secondary?


----------



## Stressbaby

BobF said:


> I've not done this wine.
> 
> Any time I do a new wine, I like to do it as straight up as possible. Usually a small, 3g batch.
> 
> This lets me assess the wine on it's own with a good base of experience to build on for future batches. This also leaves the opportunity to blend with other wines, backsweeten with a variety of juices, etc. without other ingredients getting in the way.
> 
> I would start by collecting/freezing as much as possible. Test a sample of the juice for pH, TA and sugar. Taste the skins for tannin.
> 
> Plan your batch and make adjustments based on these results aiming for little to no water additions.
> 
> There is a common opinion that Keller's recipes are light on fruit and high on alcohol. Keep this in mind.
> 
> Above all, keep us posted on progress and results!



Thanks Bob. I've already found that to be true about Keller's recipes and automatically bump the fruit by a pound or more. The carambola I made from his recipe will need an f-pac.

I won't be able to press any juice from this fruit. When you mash these through a coarse strainer you get what I'd call a pulp, more like a purée or oatmeal consistency. But I can sure post the test results from the primary.


----------



## Gowers Choice

Persimmons are different than most fruit wines. By the time they're ripe and falling off the tree they're the consistency of baby food. We basically just cut them with water. There's alot of pulp and slop to a batch of persimmon wine. But I think it's some of the most flavorful of the fruit wines.


----------



## andy123

I have a persimmon tree. Last year the crop was so heave the limbs were breaking off from the weight. I've made some pleasant tea but havent done a wine yet.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

I am also in central Missouri and have an abundance of early ripening persimmons. I have a test batch right now using the Keller recipe, but modified to target an ABV of 12%. Very surprised at the pale yellow color given the dark orange color of the fruit. Still in secondary ferment. I would be happy to share enough persimmons for a batch to any local winos. I have five trees that are pretty ripe and a couple of large trees in the woods that are still green.

I am pretty new at this, but I have also made Keller's frozen strawberry recipe as well as his blackberry recipe. I have to say the strawberry is shaping up to be completely awesome and will taste the blackberry when I rack at the end of the month.


----------



## Stressbaby

Terroirdejeroir,
I'm in Fulton, not far from you. Some time we should get together and compare our product. I've bottled 2 gal of guava, and currently in carboys I have hibiscus, beautyberry, highbush cranberry, and starfruit, all home grown. In the freezer and greenhouse I have a number of other fruits which I'm just collecting/waiting until I have enough to make a batch (banana, guava, calamondin, plumeria, plus several other shy producers). 
I'm up to ~50# of persimmons in the freezer, but I also have 20# of pumpkin that I want to get going first.


----------



## Stressbaby

My first batch of persimmon wine is in the secondary. I took BobF's recommendation and made this one more or less straight up, using sort of a combination of 2-3 recipes. Per gallon:

3.5 lbs American Persimmons
1.75 lbs finely granulated sugar
1 tsp pectic enzyme
2 tsp acid blend
1 Campden tablet, crushed and dissolved
1 tsp yeast nutrient
8 pints water
Red Star Champagne wine yeast

Some recipes called for less acid, some more. I started with 1t acid blend but starting pH was 3.8 so I added more. OG 1.090. Most recipes start with 2# sugar. I'm glad I dialed that back, otherwise I would have overshot badly on OG.

I didn't deseed these persimmons. Most recipes said to do so, some said you didn't have to, but it would increase the tannins. I started deseeding these and OMG what a mess. 

Then at 36 hours my 6 gal bucket was overflowing with foam. Given that I didn't want *too* much tannin and given my overflowing bucket, I removed the nylon straining bag. What was ~18# of persimmon was down to about 8# of mostly skin and seed; the must was the consistency of oil, very thick.

Last night I was at 1.010 and it went to the secondary. Some of the thicker stuff from the bottom went into a 1 gal so hopefully I can use that to top off the 5 gal.

Any thoughts on not deseeding are welcome. Also welcome are any thoughts on removal of the persimmon bag at 36 hr.

PS: I'm using a Better Bottle for this batch and every time you lift it by the handle is sucks a little water from the airlock down into the wine.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

I started an experimental one gallon batch with some early ripening persimmons that weren't quite as sweet as yours as I added 29.3 oz of sugar to get to a 1.085 OG. I also left the seeds in as I cannot imagine separating them from the goo. I used Red Star Montrachet and didn't have any foaming problems.

My batch is about seven weeks old now and extrememly clear. Also surprisingly yellow as I would have expected more of an orange tint based on the color of must. I will probably sample, stabilize and back sweeten some time next month.

I currently have 18.5 lbs of persimmons in the freezer and will probably gather another 5-10 lbs later today. I will likely start a larger batch soon and I am considering using Prise de Mousse (Lalvin EC-1118) yeast to see what difference that makes. 

Good luck!


----------



## Stressbaby

terroir,
I see a ridiculous amount of pulp/gross lees/sludge in my secondary now. Did you see that? Did it compact?


----------



## Brew and Wine Supply

Had a customer in the other day and our discussion was about leaving the seeds in or not. We came to conclusion to leave them in. Some of the persimmons from the south are the size of a tangerine where the ones up here are like ping pong balls. One recipe we looked at said to quarter and remove seeds, we figured they were talking about the larger ones. 

I was going to try a small batch this year but with the drought the squirrels got everything this summer.

Stressbaby- let it sit a while it will compress. BTW how long has it been in the secondary?
Looking good!


----------



## terroirdejeroir

I strained quite a bit of lees out when I went from primary to secondary, but nothing like your photo. I still got a lot of precipitate in secondary. I had some peach wine going at about the same time and I probably got 2-3 times as much precipitate from the persimmon. It has cleared really beautifully, though - hang in there!


----------



## kfrinkle

Just got back from my secret spot out in the woods where I gather persimmons. I have about 100lbs right now, will hopefully have close to 200 lbs when all is said and done, and yes, these are the native N. American ones. I have to fight the deer off to get my allotment. 

The first time I made this wine, I spent an ENTIRE day trying to smoooosh (extra o's required) the fruit through a medium size hole strainer, and it was a pain. I added water to each batch I strained to try to get as much pulp out as possible. What I ended up with was a 7 gallon bucket of sludge, that when fermenting, had a crust that was 1/2 the height of the bucket!

I vowed to never make this wine again, but alas, I will be doing it this year. I have a 30 gallon primary now (stainless steel) and was thinking of making the wine in there, we shall see.

So this year, I am hoping to leave seeds in, and it seems from reading this thread, that the jury is not quite in on leaving seeds in or not. For the size of each persimmon, over 50% of the fruit itself is usually seed with the variety we get here in SE Oklahoma. I always work very hard to get as much of the pulp off the seed, but if I could leave the seeds in the mash, maybe I could save more of the overall fruit? But alas, I am worried as to how the seeds will affect the flavor. So should I :
(1) deseed and strain, or 
(2) throw the frozen persimmons whole into my primary and just mash it up and add water

Also, if anyone wants my recipe from my first attempt (which came out exceptionally well), I can post it.


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> Then at 36 hours my 6 gal bucket was overflowing with foam. Given that I didn't want *too* much tannin and given my overflowing bucket, I removed the nylon straining bag. What was ~18# of persimmon was down to about 8# of mostly skin and seed; the must was the consistency of oil, very thick.
> 
> Any thoughts on not deseeding are welcome. Also welcome are any thoughts on removal of the persimmon bag at 36 hr.


This wine, of all the fruit wines I have made, was the messiest, most labour intensive, and had the largest cap that I had to break down up to 5 times a day! It was ridiculous.

One option on the deseeding is to use a small lingerie washer bag to strain the pulp through. The holes are too big to let the seeds through, but will let everything else through. Bonus is that the bag is mashable, and you can twist the living daylights out of it to get the max out of the persimmons. It makes a horrible mess, but you might find it easier than using a solid metal strainer.

As for the mess at fermentation, if I do not make it in my 30 gallon primary, I will break up the batch in such as a way to spread it out over multiple 5 gallon buckets. You will lose a ton of volume over the course of processing this wine. First time I made it, I had 7 gallons to start with, ended up with 13 bottles at the finish! I would love to know how to make this stuff not lose so much volume over the course of the rackings.


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle,
I would like to see your recipe.
As I watch this first 5 gallon batch, I have to say I'm in agreement about the lost volume. The pulp/lees is not compacting much at all and if I were to rack off the wine right now I might get perhaps 3 gal from the 5 gallon I started with. I think I will be ordering some more 3 gallon carboys.


----------



## kfrinkle

2011.01.15 
Spent the entire day filtering good stuff out of a 5 gallon bucket of persimmons. Put two 2.5 gallon zippies back in the freezer.
I am not sure how much pulp was left, but it was thick even after bucket was filled to 6.5 gallon level. 

Mixed the following in 7 gallon food grade bucket:
- unknow lbs of persimmon pulp
- 1 tbsp yeast energizer
- 1 tsp pectic enzyme
- 3 tbsp acid blend
- 1/2 tbsp wine tannin
- 6 lbs of sugar
- 1/4 tsp campden
- water to make approx 6.5 gallons
Covered and let sit overnight

2011.01.15 
Added the yeast at 9:00 PM. Unable to get S.G. reading, too thick! Added extra 1 lb of sugar.

2011.01.16
Fermentation has begun! 

2011.02.09
Removed polybag, transferred to carboy

2011.03.04
Racked off to carboy, still fermenting. Added approx. 22 OZ of local (Caddo) honey.

2011.03.17
Racked off again. Specific Gravity was at .996 at 73F. Tasted a little astringent, very high alcohol taste, hopefully stabilizer + sugar will help with this.

2011.05.04
Racked off again. Added stabilizer + 3 lbs sugar.

2011.07.02
Bottled tonight. Nice honey taste with persimmon. Not bad at all! 13 bottles total, a little darker than the pear wine from December.


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle, did you get a final SG?


----------



## kfrinkle

No, I did not. Once I measure it in the .990 arena and backsweeten later, I am too lazy to do a final S.G., I just sweeten to taste and leave it at that.


----------



## Stressbaby

I racked mine off last night, and after starting with a full 6 gal primary, I have now one full 3 gal carboy. I think it is pretty much done fermenting but I didn't get a SG. It has a strange smell...generously it is earthy, less than generously it is a musty, dirty feet sort of smell. I googled this and found something on TCA. But it seems that TCA would be unusual to see this in a wine which is barely a wine. Hopefully this is just persimmons being persimmons.


----------



## kfrinkle

Yeah, I remember mine smelled a bit off at the beginning as well, be patient!


----------



## Stressbaby

Indeed, I had to pull a little out because I overfilled, and the funky smell is mostly gone already. Thanks for the reminder, kfrinkle!


----------



## Stressbaby

Today I started a couple of gallons of Persimmon-Orange mead. My wife is much happier with the smell of the kitchen this time.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Care to share a recipe? I still have 6 pounds of persimmons in the freezer...


----------



## Stressbaby

I couldn't find a recipe, so I pieced this together from other mead recipes and based it in part on my first persimmon wine. Remember, I'm pretty new at this and you get what you pay for. 

3# 10oz honey
6# persimmons
4t acid blend
2 oranges, rind and juice
1/4 tsp yeast energizer
2t yeast nutrient
2t pectic
14 pints water

I boiled 7 pints water with the honey the way most mead recipes recommend. In the other 7 pints I dissolved yeast energizer and nutrient, acid blend, OJ. I put the persimmon mush in the bag with the orange rind and poured the boiling honey water over it. After it cooled I added the other half of the water mix and the pectic. In the morning I will pitch the yeast. 

My SG is 1.075 but I left a little room for a bump from the persimmons or to add some honey later in the fermentation. TA is ~6.75 as tartaric, pH is 3.4. Based on the smell alone I think I have too much orange, but we'll see. Right now I have a little over 2.5 gal, and I figure I need every bit of that for a final volume of 1 gal.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Just racked, sampled, stabilized and back sweetened my early one-gallon batch of persimmon wine. Beautifully clear, pale golden color and the taste is, how do you say - oo la la!

The five gallon batch is still perking away with vast quantities of what could only be described as "gross" lees.


----------



## Stressbaby

terroir, 
That is good to hear!
I added another 10oz of honey to my Orange-Persimmon mead while in the primary and it went into the secondary this morning at 1.004. So much pulp...I will be lucky to finish with a gallon!


----------



## Stressbaby

The mead is in two 1 gal carboys which are each about 1/2 full of pulp. I got some cheesecloth, I'm going to try to filter this pulp and see what I get...I'll report back. 

I did find a Jack Keller blog post where he describes a technique whereby he puts the persimmon in a panty hose and puts that inside of a straining bag. I may try that next time.

I started 10 gal of what I hope to be lightly spiced persimmon wine using the base recipe plus 3 cinnamon sticks and 1t pumpkin pie spice (cinnamon/clove/ginger/nutmeg). The cinnamon was notable on day two but by today it is not notable at all...replaced by that funky persimmon smell I got last time. It's a huge freakin' pulpy foamy mess. Will add some pics this weekend...


----------



## kfrinkle

So I spent about 6.5 hours on Saturday getting my 2012 batch of persimmon wine ready to go. After the wife did some research online, we ended up buying a Marshall rotary ricer (with wooden pestle). This was an awesome buy! I took my persimmons out of the freezer Friday night, and started working on them Saturday late morning. I was able to fill the cone about half full, then start the pressing process. Once I got most of the pulp out of each little batch, I took the rest and put it in a pot. I repeated this until the pot was about 75% full of seedy, sticky, gummy leftovers. I then added some water to this, heated it on the stove for a little bit, and then strained this through the rotary ricer again! This time, after I had gotten most of the remaining sticky goo into my primary, I poured some warm water over what remained in the ricer. This finished the process. What was left by this times was about 95% seeds. It was a very long and tedious process, but I feel that I got a lot more out of this time. Also, the consistency was much thinker after this, hence more pulp was pulled out of each persimmon. I ended up starting two 5 gallon batches, hopefully I will end up with 5 gallons after all is said and done!


----------



## Stressbaby

Good tip on the ricer, kfrinkle. Keep us posted. There has to be a better way with these persimmons.


----------



## Hokapsig

guys, thanks for the posts. I was offered all the persimmons that I could handle and wanted to know if a wine could be prepared from them. According to my source, the persimmons are great right now as they are very sweet from the first frost. I will have him collect as many as possible and freeze them for me. It sounds like this wine is very messy to make, but is it worth it after all the issues????


----------



## Stressbaby

Hokapsig,

I don't know yet. Terroir and kfrinkle seem to think so. Time will tell.

I've made three batches now, 3 gal (started as 6.5), 1 gal mead (started as 2 gal), and 5 gal which probably still has 1/2 gal of pulp, even after the first racking (started with 10.5 gal). I'm going to have to make an extra 1 gallon batch just to top off my 5 gallon carboy after I rack off of this pulp! So...unless you figure out a better method or recipe than what I'm using (4# whole fruit/gallon must), you'll end up with just a quantity of wine just under 50% of your quantity of starting must.

Each of my musts has been so thick I could barely get a SG reading. I've wondered if I couldn't improve the "return," so to speak by using somewhat less fruit/gallon.

Also, on about day 4-5 in the primary each of my batches has developed a very peculiar musty or musky smell. My wife says it smells like stinky feet. Honestly it's pretty nasty. kfrinkle said he recalls a funky smell as well so I don't think it is just me. I'm pretty sure I didn't contaminate it but it apparently caused this guy to think that he had and to pitch his wine after 2 weeks. Anyway, it is subsiding in my oldest (3 gallon) batch.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

I haven't had any odor issues, but I use a little less fruit - three pounds per gallon. Just drank a couple glasses of my early season one gallon batch that were left over when I bottled over the weekend. Not sure how to describe it, but it was very pleasant. 

I have a five gallon batch going and I got 3 gals and 2.25 liters of wine out of it. I used ICV-D47 on this batch whereas I used Red Star Montrachet on the first batch. Only difference I have noticed so far is the first batch was a lot paler. Might have to sample a bit when I rack again in about ten days.


----------



## kfrinkle

One may be tempted to thin that sludge prior to pitching the yeast, since we always like to get a good SG reading, but with the amount of stuff that precipitates out, I think it is a bad idea. For some reason, my fermentation is a little slower this batch, however I think it may be due to temps in the house, which are hovering around 65F, as opposed to my normal 70F. I am not getting the massive crazy cap each day due to the slower fermentation, which might, in itself, be a blessing. I used champagne yeast this time around.
It has been actively fermenting since Sunday, but I think I will put it into carboys this Sunday, even if it is not quite as fermented out as I would like. Not sure if that is a good idea or not.


----------



## Stressbaby

Yesterday I pitched the yeast on persimmon-orange batch. I used the basic recipe + rind and juice of 2 oranges/gallon.

The Hyvee in Columbia has started stocking some beer brewing supplies. I stopped by there yesterday and picked up a 3 gal carboy and a 12" funnel-filter. I needed to rack my last batch off of (yet more) pulp, so I moved most of that to the new 3 gallon, added some more pumpkin pie spice; the last bit I moved to a 1 gallon and after finding several food recipes that combine rosemary and persimmon, I dropped 1T dried rosemary into that 1 gallon. So as far as variations go, right now I've got:


3 gallon straight up
3 gallon "spiced" (cinnamon, ginger, allspice, nutmeg)
1 gallon orange-persimmon mead
1 gallon rosemary-persimmon
1+ gallon orange-persimmon wine

Here is a pic of the funnel-filter. I'm going to give this a try with this new batch.

Robert


----------



## kfrinkle

Racked off to one 5 gallon carboy, one 6 gallon carboy, and a few smaller ones today, I could barely get the stuff through the siphon, but I did not want to strain it yet. Here is what that stuff looks like now.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Here is a shot of my most recent persimmon batch that I just stabilized. Pitched the yeast (ICV-D47) on 10/28. The bottle next to the carboy is from an earlier small batch I made from some early ripening persimmons using RedStar Montrachet. The color difference is pretty substantial even though the wine always looks darker in the carboy than in the bottle.


----------



## Stressbaby

Yesterday I racked 3 gal of straight persimmon and 1 gallon of persimmon-orange mead. These wines are 2 and 2.5 months old. Both of them have the same *nasty smell* that all 4 of my batches of persimmon wine have starting around the third day in the primary. They all smell like a cross between smelly feet and my 18 year old son's gymbag.

As to the possible cause...could it be the prep? For each batch, I left the persimmons on the skins; in three of the four, I poured boiling water over the fruit and sugar, and for one of the four, water wasn't boiled. All were adequately sulfited. I can't see a difference between them. None of my other wines (I have a dozen batches of other various things) have this smell. I was thinking of taking a small sample of persimmons and boiling, mashing, then straining the the liquid, pectin be damned. I was also thinking of going with straight pulp to see if that made a difference. Or maybe it is just persimmons...

As to the remedy...I need one...something...I have 10 gallons of this stuff and it will pain me to dump it. Would splash racking help? Other thoughts? Just more time?


----------



## kfrinkle

You might as well try splash racking. Now, are these the small native persimmons or the oriental variety? I take skins off of the small ones, and I would definitely take the skins off the big oriental ones.

I am currently racking off my persimmon batch. It is a horrible mess. However, I am going to have about 6 gallons of sludge left. The sludge has a ton of excellent color and material left in it. Can I referment this stuff?


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle, these are the native American persimmons.

I don't know about refermenting...did you try it?

I splash racked one of the three gallon carboys, the spiced persimmon wine, and I will say that it has improved enough for me to be confident I will eventually have 3 gal of drinkable cinnamon-nutmeg-ginger-spiced persimmon wine. Not sure if it is the splash racking, the spice, time, or some combination of the three. I will try splash racking one of the others this weekend.

After reading some of Luc's pecic enzyme experiments, I'm thinking of taking my next 4# bag and mashing the pulp off of the skins and then hitting the pulp alone with a big dose of pectic before even starting the wine. If I do that I'll post some pics of the experiment.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Just opened a split of the persimmon wine from the test batch I made from an early ripening sample. It isn't totally ready yet, but I am thrilled. Fermented it dry and then sweetened to 1.000. Very smooth and tasty with a super long citrus finish. Can't wait to taste the final product. Three gallons bulk aging....

If you are near mid-Missouri I still have 5-6 pounds in the freezer that I would part with.


----------



## Stressbaby

terroirdejeroir said:


> Just opened a split of the persimmon wine from the test batch I made from an early ripening sample. It isn't totally ready yet, but I am thrilled. Fermented it dry and then sweetened to 1.000. Very smooth and tasty with a super long citrus finish. Can't wait to taste the final product. Three gallons bulk aging....
> 
> If you are near mid-Missouri I still have 5-6 pounds in the freezer that I would part with.



Terroir, I bet you could get another gallon out of that! I have 16# left, still trying to decide what to do with it.

I've been sampling each of my variations as they are racked and while I won't say I'm thrilled, they are all getting better. My orange-persimmon is the best so far and at an earlier age than the others. 

I started another small batch today, and as I noted above, I'm trying a new and different way of managing the fruit in an effort to get more wine, less pulp. If it works better, I'll post pics and details.


----------



## Stressbaby

Probably time to update this thread.

I took the first batch, straight persimmon, and split it into three 1 gal batches. One got no oak, one got light oak (5g chips) and one got heavy oak (10g chips). After only 3 weeks the heavy oak smelled a lot like burnt toast so I racked them off of the oak chips. The heavy oak is clear and bottled and the other two are still aging. I needed the carboy. 

Currently I have:
1 gal straight persimmon, unoaked
1 gal straight persimmon, light oak
1 gal straight persimmon, heavy oak - bottled
3 gal spiced persimmon (cinnamon sticks/apple pie spice)
1 gal spiced persimmon (rosemary...don't ask me where I got that idea)
1 gal orange-persimmon - bottled
1 gal orange-persimmon mead - bottled

The ones with orange cleared with no trouble at all, the others are proving slower and more difficult to clear.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Interesting. I am surprised you are having such trouble clearing. For me, the persimmon wine clears better than any other fruit wine. It is the only one I have done that will clear completely in a couple of months without any clarifying agents. We should get together and compare notes....


----------



## Stressbaby

We tasted and bottled about 6 gallons of various persimmon wine variations yesterday. The remaining wine cleared beautifully with Isinglass.

Straight persimmon - unoaked (1 gal) and light oak (1 gal, heavy toast American) - meh. Minerally? I'm not normally found of minerally wines. Definitely flabby. I looked back at my notes and found a preadjustment pH of 3.8, and I subsequently pounded it with what looks like a heavy dose of acid blend and citric preferment. Then later in my notes I found a post ferment pH of 3.8 as well. I bottled this one without any backsweetening or other adjustments. This is a bit of an experiment, we'll see. I'm also looking for a little more rounded wine here. See below for some adjustments.

Rosemary persimmon (1 gal) - this one came out pretty well surprisingly. It is not backsweetened but the rosemary is there and while it won't be a back-porch sipper, it will be pretty good with the right meal.

Spiced persimmon (3 gal, cinnamon, ginger, allspice, nutmeg) - I think we nailed this one. Let's put it this way...my wife and her best friend love it. I backsweetened just a little, 50g/gallon. This one will be perfect for the fall.

Some general observations after 80# persimmons and about 10 gallons...


Isinglass may be the preferred fining agent; bentonite and SuperKleer didn't complete the job, but in my trials, Isinglass cleared these wines with ease.
Addition of some orange seemed to greatly aid in clearing.
STOUT dose of pectic enzyme perferment helps with clearing - like triple the usual dose
The standard Jack Keller 4#/gallon recipe provides enough fruit, but yields only about 50% of the desired volume of wine due to the pulp. So in the end you need 8# fruit/gallon for wine from native persimmons.
I have not yet made a straight persimmon wine that is to my liking.
The funky smell is generally gone by 6 months.

Now I still have 16# of persimmons in the freezer. Here is my plan, using a version of the Turock bentonite schedule, and using Go-Ferm/Fermaid instead of standard yeast nutrient to see if it affects the funky smell. Feedback welcome:

16# persimmons
4 oranges, rind and juice
Juice of 2 lemons
~3T acid blend preadjustment
12t pectic (!)
~6# sugar preadjustment
4 Campden tabs
Oak cubes, medium toast
4g Fermaid K
Go-ferm (1.25 grams/ 1 gram of yeast/17mls of water) 

To each 4# bag frozen persimmons, add 1 Campden tab. Allow to thaw, around 8 hours, squeezing the bag occasionally to mix. Add 2t pectic to each bag, mix thoroughly, and let it sit overnight. Put fruit in straining bag. Add orange rind, citrus juice, acid blend, and fruit to primary. Boil water and dissolve sugar. Pour sugar water over fruit mix, water to 4 gallons, stir, and let cool. Add 4t pectic and let sit overnight.
The next morning adjust sugar to 1.085-1.090 and acid to pH of 3.4. Rehydrate yeast with Go-Ferm and pitch.
The next day add bentonite.
Add Fermaid K when sugar down 1/4-1/3.
To secondary at 1.010 or so.
Rack off all of the pulp in a couple of weeks. If I continue to like the effect of the oak on the first batch, I'll try oak cubes on this batch in the secondary.


----------



## Gowers Choice

Was wondering what yeast everyone is using for their persimmon wines. We usually use Cotes de Blancs or the Champagne. However, this fall I'm thinking of atleast one experimental batch using just the natural yeast on the fruit. I don't know about anyone else's persimmons, but mine are usually covered in a natural yeast by the time they fall from the tree. Has anyone else tried the au-natural approach ?


----------



## Stressbaby

Interesting idea. I haven't tried it. My fear would be fermentation from a yeast with 7-8% alcohol toxicity. Are you going to drop back the sugar some?


----------



## kfrinkle

*its that time of year again!*

So I thought I would jump back into this thread. I still have not bottled my 10 gallons from last year, I should take a pic of at least one of them, it has a nice medium orange color, not sure on the taste yet. My second 5 gallon batch ended up a little more yellow for some reason, and it is not yet ready.

I am went out to grab my first batch of persimmons on Saturday, and the trees out in the woods are loaded. The only problem I had was getting my cooler back the 3/4 of a mile I hiked in with. I immediately ran what I picked through my rice masher, and it was nice, but I am thinking about being lazy and doing a fermentation of the whole fruit, skipping the processing portion. I am just trying to figure out if I can get a 30 gallon batch going in my Blichmann wineasy primary, and if it can actually get pressed and strained through the bottom of that beast without being clogged up.

Thoughts on the fermentation leaving seeds and skin on?


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle - I've done it that way without any issues at all. Tannins are not a problem.

I've bottled several batches from last year. All but the last one had that funky smell. It took me 90# of persimmons, but finally on the last batch of 16# I think I figured out how to manage without getting the funny smell. The keys for me were: 1) keep the temp down in the 19-21C range; 2) don't use D47; 3) GoFerm and staged additions of Fermaid-K. My last batch looks and smells great...it is not bottled yet.

This year my tree is loaded but unlike last year, the persimmons are hanging in there, staying on the tree longer. Of those that are dropping, at least half are not ripe and can't be used. I've got 15-20# so far and hopefully will get another 15# before we're done, but at this rate I will be nowhere near the 90# I got last year.


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> kfrinkle - I've done it that way without any issues at all. Tannins are not a problem.
> 
> I've bottled several batches from last year. All but the last one had that funky smell. It took me 90# of persimmons, but finally on the last batch of 16# I think I figured out how to manage without getting the funny smell. The keys for me were: 1) keep the temp down in the 19-21C range; 2) don't use D47; 3) GoFerm and staged additions of Fermaid-K. My last batch looks and smells great...it is not bottled yet.
> 
> This year my tree is loaded but unlike last year, the persimmons are hanging in there, staying on the tree longer. Of those that are dropping, at least half are not ripe and can't be used. I've got 15-20# so far and hopefully will get another 15# before we're done, but at this rate I will be nowhere near the 90# I got last year.



I do not know if I have ever noticed this smell you speak of after it gets transferred to secondary. Our house stays below 70F this time of year, and usually is closer to 65-67F range. Did you ever clear up the smell issues with the different variations you made? It makes me wonder if the smell is in the skins, because I have never fermented with skins on.... Thoughts?

Also, how much water are you adding to a batch?
I have attached the pics of my two batches, the early one looks nice and golden in color, the second, which I started this spring (froze that batch) is lighter in color and still cloudy....

I am intrigued with the thoughts of using some yeast besides Champagne, but man, Champagne really ferments that stuff like mad.


----------



## Stressbaby

It definitely is not the skins that gives the odor. This last batch I made (recipe below) has not one whiff of the funky smell and I fermented it on the skins. So far, the smell has not gone completely away from any of the other batches. I may end up tossing all of them.

Here is the recipe for the last batch. It is just now 2 months old and it is excellent. I used apple instead of grape juice and the apple is prominent...maybe too prominent...and I may go with fresh citrus, grape concentrate, or mix of apple and grape next time. My wife is picky and while it is not clear, it smells and tastes great; she already likes it at 2 months. This recipe made 6 gal of must, but because my native persimmons throw a ridiculous amount of gross lees/pulp, you end up with 1/2 of the original volume of wine; so I have this batch in a 3 gal carboy. The pH was adjusted from 4.54 to 3.48. OG 1.090

16# persimmon in 4 x 4# ziplock bags, frozen
3 cans apple jc concentrate
5# sugar
4 Campden tabs
1t Fermaid-K
1t Go-Ferm
4g (1t) tannin
12t pectic, divided doses
6T + 2t acid blend
~4.5gal water
2t bentonite
K1-V1116

To each 4# bag frozen persimmons, add 1 Campden tab. Allow to thaw, around 8 hours, squeezing the bag occasionally to mix. Add 2t pectic to each bag, mix thoroughly, and let it sit overnight. Put fruit in straining bag. Add apple concentrate, acid blend, tannin, and fruit to primary. Boil the water and dissolve sugar. Pour sugar water over fruit mix, stir, and let cool. Add 4t pectic and let sit overnight. Next morning make acid adjustments and sugar adjustments (totals shown above; I would cut the original additions back by 1/3 to start with and then make adjustments at this point after everything as set for a while). Rehydrate yeast with Go-Ferm and pitch. Closely watch the temp and cool it down if >22C. The next day add bentonite. Add Fermaid K when sugar down 1/4-1/3. To secondary at 1.010 or so. Racked off all of the pulp in a couple of weeks to 3 gallon carboy.


----------



## kfrinkle

Interesting on the recipe, thanks! What were your thoughts on using the kv-1116 yeast as opposed to champagne? I am pretty minimalist when it comes to the fruit wines, and the wife does not like too many extra additives, so whatever i do, i keep it simple. That being said, i am going to try to fill up my 30 gallon primary about 1/2 full of whole persimmons, add water to get it to 2/3 and then all the little extras. I thought about this last night, with the blichmann wineeasy, the press piston may do a good job of getting the extra liquid out of the pulp. And yes, all my batches up through last years also lose half volume to sediment, it is pretty amazing isnt it?


----------



## kfrinkle

Went out yesterday morning for a couple of hours, had a pretty darned heavy cooler to walk back out 3/4 of a mile out of the woods, but I am thinking a few more trips and I should have enough for a 30 gallon batch. Now if I can find freezer space to hold them until it is time.

I took a few pictures out there, it was windy and most of them did not come out, but here are a couple of nice ones. These are small trees, which border the patch of large trees, needless to say, I am going to fill the freezer as these ripen.


----------



## jamesngalveston

omg i wish i had some...the best part of fall was when they got ripe in louisiana as a kid...i really looked forward to it every year..sometimes we had to do battle the racoons for them.
lucy man you are to get those babies. and thats the big ones...


----------



## Stressbaby

LOL! At least you can reach those. As I said in my first post, my tree is enormous, biggest one I've ever seen. Not one branch within reach anywhere around the tree, and the girth is prob 6 feet. I just have to pick mine up off of the ground after they fall.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Stressbaby said:


> kfrinkle - I've done it that way without any issues at all. Tannins are not a problem.
> 
> I've bottled several batches from last year. All but the last one had that funky smell. It took me 90# of persimmons, but finally on the last batch of 16# I think I figured out how to manage without getting the funny smell. The keys for me were: 1) keep the temp down in the 19-21C range; 2) don't use D47; 3) GoFerm and staged additions of Fermaid-K. My last batch looks and smells great...it is not bottled yet.
> 
> This year my tree is loaded but unlike last year, the persimmons are hanging in there, staying on the tree longer. Of those that are dropping, at least half are not ripe and can't be used. I've got 15-20# so far and hopefully will get another 15# before we're done, but at this rate I will be nowhere near the 90# I got last year.



Interesting that your trees are holding on to their fruit. The trees I have access to are just a few miles away from yours (I am less than a mile from Callaway County), but all my persimmons dropped weeks ago. I have access to probably thirty different trees across 150 acres with several different orientations and micro-environments and they are all devoid of both fruit and leaves.

I am going to start a five-gallon batch as soon as I have a fermenter available and I look forward to using K1-V1116 to see how it turns out. I like it with peaches, but I have never used it on persimmons.


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> LOL! At least you can reach those. As I said in my first post, my tree is enormous, biggest one I've ever seen. Not one branch within reach anywhere around the tree, and the girth is prob 6 feet. I just have to pick mine up off of the ground after they fall.



Yeah, but I still wait for these to hit the ground. Picked some more today, I am thinking I have at least two weeks of picking left, some trees are not even close to ripe, this is an interesting season for sure.


----------



## kfrinkle

terroirdejeroir said:


> Interesting that your trees are holding on to their fruit. The trees I have access to are just a few miles away from yours (I am less than a mile from Callaway County), but all my persimmons dropped weeks ago. I have access to probably thirty different trees across 150 acres with several different orientations and micro-environments and they are all devoid of both fruit and leaves.



Yeah, even out in the woods where I go, the different patches that I visit are in very different stages of ripeness. In fact, there is one tree off by itself that is not even ripe yet, and several that are almost done dropping their fruit for the season.


----------



## Gowers Choice

Did 6 different 5 gallon batches this year. Tried Cotes de Blanc, Pasture Red, Pasture Champagne, and a batch using the natural yeast of the fruit.


----------



## kfrinkle

Gowers Choice said:


> Did 6 different 5 gallon batches this year. Tried Cotes de Blanc, Pasture Red, Pasture Champagne, and a batch using the natural yeast of the fruit.



I was thinking about the natural yeast myself. It has been rather warm here the last few days, and the persimmons on the ground will start smelling rather musty after one day on the ground, made me think there might be a festive amount of natural yeasts on them. I might try my hand at a 5 gallon batch of natural as well. For the natural yeast batch, did you freeze the fruit first? And did you ferment with seeds and skins?


----------



## Stressbaby

Thought I would post some pics as well. Just one tree, but I really only need one.


----------



## Stressbaby

Gowers Choice said:


> Did 6 different 5 gallon batches this year. Tried Cotes de Blanc, Pasture Red, Pasture Champagne, and a batch using the natural yeast of the fruit.



Gowers, please post your results here!


----------



## jamesngalveston

thats the biggest persimmon tree i have ever seen.
here in texas and louisiana, they get about 30 feet thats it.maybe 8 inches across....
and the racoons love them......


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

The ones I planted are almost 6 feet tall this year, at least the biggest one. I went to the asian market today and bought 6 pounds of asian persimmons to make a melomel from (just for practice when mine start to have fruit). WVMJ


----------



## jamesngalveston

pays to be prepared jack....how old do the trees have to be before baring fruit...


----------



## jamesngalveston

last year i picked about 400 lbs of blackberries, and left another 400 on the vines, i have all ready purchased picking bins for this year and have a contract to keep in a commercial freezer and pull as i need...this year I hope to get at least 800 lbs. thats a lot of port.


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> Thought I would post some pics as well. Just one tree, but I really only need one.



Wow, that is impressive! I am thinking of transplanting a few trees to my yard. Do you have a male tree somewhere nearby?


----------



## Stressbaby

jamesngalveston said:


> pays to be prepared jack....how old do the trees have to be before baring fruit...



4-9 years from seed according to this.

Persimmons are dioecious and therefore not self-fertile. I know of not one other persimmon near mine, but obviously there is at least one male tree around somewhere. I have a few seedlings I'm allowing to grow up nearby to ensure pollination in the event that a neighbor decides to cut down my tree's baby daddy.

Interesting to learn that there are two "races" of American persimmon, a hexaploid 90 chromosome northern race, and a tetraploid 60 chromosome southern race centered in the southern Appalachian mountains.


> Surveys have found only the 90-chromosome race north of the Ohio River and west of the Mississippi River. The 90-
> chromosome race extends into the Tennessee Valley and southward where it competes with the 60-chromosome race.


According to most sources, they don't cross pollinate and are sexually distinct. However, a couple of the sources say that the northern type pollinated by the southern type can produce seedless fruit.


----------



## Stressbaby

I meant to also point out that the one link says freezing, drying, and ethylene will remove the astringency. I haven't tried drying but can certainly testify that freezing works in this regard.


----------



## Gowers Choice

The natural yeast batch is not really doing much. It's formed a cap of foam inside the carboy and is putting off very few bubbles. The other 5 batches that have yeast are bubbling right along. I'm thinking of pitching some yeast into the natural batch? What do you all think?


----------



## kfrinkle

Gowers Choice said:


> The natural yeast batch is not really doing much. It's formed a cap of foam inside the carboy and is putting off very few bubbles. The other 5 batches that have yeast are bubbling right along. I'm thinking of pitching some yeast into the natural batch? What do you all think?



Well that was my concern, that the natural yeasts just would not be up to the job of converting sugars to alcohol fast enough to ensure that things do not get funky.... If you have the persimmons to spare, I think it is a great experiment to not add yeast. You might need warm temps for the natural yeasts to do their job well, what temp is the must at?


----------



## Gowers Choice

I think the temperature is the reason. It was getting very cool at night while it was in the primary. Low 40's and the only place we can keep it was in the garage.


----------



## kfrinkle

Yeah, I would suggest putting that primary someplace a little warmer?


----------



## jamesngalveston

have never seen a seedless persimmon...in louisiana and texas they get about the size of a half dollar, for a big one.


----------



## kfrinkle

Was out picking today, saw lots of persimmons, and these blue berries on a vine. Any ideas what they might be?


----------



## Gowers Choice

Natural yeast batch finally started bubbling steady. Hopefully by February we'll have something worth drinking.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

They look like wild grapes, best to do a google on them to see if they match up just to be safe. You guys have probably already had a good frost, how do the persimmons taste? WVMJ



kfrinkle said:


> Was out picking today, saw lots of persimmons, and these blue berries on a vine. Any ideas what they might be?


----------



## Stressbaby

Gowers - if your persimmon is ready by February you will be making good time!

Jack - our persimmons are often ready long before a frost. I had ~20# collected prior to our first frost this year. From my reading, the "first frost" thing is a myth and my experience certainly confirms.


----------



## kfrinkle

I cannot seem to match up the vines and leaves to anything by picture.... As formthe persimmons, no frost here yet it SE oklahoma, but i have picked a ton, and they are very sweet and mushy. I only pick off the ground though.


----------



## kfrinkle

Just a quick question... How do you guys measure the S.G. with the sludge that you start with? I am going to be very careful with a large batch in the next couple of weeks, and am not sure how to get a decent reading.


----------



## Stressbaby

Spin it, spin it, and spin it again. 
And take multiple readings.


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> Spin it, spin it, and spin it again.
> And take multiple readings.



I shall give it a go. I am about a week out from starting I think. I got another 5 gallons this AM. So right now, if my freezer I have at least 17 one gallon zippies in various stages of frozenness. I think adding about 10 gallons of water to that might get me to about the 22-24 gallon mark on my 30 gallon primary, which is about as full as I will go with this fruit due to the crazy cap size I have experienced in the past.... I think each gallon bag is probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 6 lbs....


----------



## kfrinkle

Ok, so I started the process. I have 17 one-gallon zippies of persimmons that I threw into my 30 gallon primary. I then added 10 gallons of H20. This was Sunday night. Monday night, I added the requisite amount of sodium bisulfate. This afternoon I added some pectic enzyme. The sludge is up to about 55 degrees F at the moment. I tried getting a S.G. reading, and without sugar added I think it is at about 1.045 or so, it was tough to tell. I am thinking I will have to add some more sugar but I want the pectic enzyme to do its job. Tomorrow night it will be closer to 65 F at which point I can add some sugar if needed and then Thursday morning I will throw some Champagne yeast on top! It was nice not putting 17 gallons of persimmons through my rice strainer, saved me hours of work, I hope it comes out!


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle, 
Keep us posted. We would love to see some pics.
My 1 gal bags aren't full, but I get 4-5#/bag. I have around 10 bags frozen but I'm not starting mine for a couple of months yet because I have plum and sweet potato to make first.


----------



## kfrinkle

So i added 9 more lbs of sugar this evening. Temp was up to 60F. I pitched three packets of champagne yeast on it as well. It was tough still getting a SG reading. I pushed a strainer down into the mess and used a wine thief to get some liquid without pulp into my s.g. Vessel, still no idea what the real SG is though, i am thinking about 1.07. I actually had a question: should i stir the yeast into the must since it is so thick, or leave it on top?


----------



## Stressbaby

I would leave it on top for 12 hours then stir well.
It is a familiar sight!


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Has anyone ever tried using raw sugar with persimmons? I am starting a new batch soon and am considering going with raw cane sugar. I really like what it did to my dried apricot wine.


----------



## kfrinkle

Actually, i always use raw cane sugar, never the white granulized stuff. Always turns out fine for me.

Also, persimmon picking has just gotten crazy, got over six gallons worth this morning.


----------



## Stressbaby

I went out this past weekend after the wind died down and got 13# in about 30 minutes before the back got sore!
I think my tree still has probably 75# on it but when you get home after dark it is hard to get them!


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> I went out this past weekend after the wind died down and got 13# in about 30 minutes before the back got sore!
> I think my tree still has probably 75# on it but when you get home after dark it is hard to get them!



Yeah, this time of year there is sooo little light. Luckily for me, my work is very flexible on when I get stuff done, so on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I can actually go out picking first thing in the morning and then head into the office after lunch. It is well worth it.


----------



## kfrinkle

So the cap on this batch was about six inches thick this evening. Egads... I added one half gallon water to this must, it almost seems to be thickening up! Fementation is also not going ridiculously fast either.


----------



## Snafflebit

kfrinkle said:


> Was out picking today, saw lots of persimmons, and these blue berries on a vine. Any ideas what they might be?



I am thinking this is wild grape, but there are no leaves so it is difficult to tell. Or you could ferment up a batch of poisonberry wine for when the in-laws stop by. I wonder what those two other orange colored fruits are.


----------



## kfrinkle

Naw, it is poisonous, i have a botanist colleague who identified it for me. Sadly, no vino from it.

As for the persimmon wine, even in a thirty gallon primary, the cap is getting out of control. My wife was peeking in on me stirring it and asked if there was even any liquid in the fermentor.


----------



## Stressbaby

Wow. Any off odors? What is the temp?

I racked a bunch of wine today; my last persimmon batch used some apple concentrate and is coming right along! It is plenty "appley." I dropped in a vanilla bean. I opened a bottle of unoaked straight up persimmon from last year and it was also very good.


----------



## Gowers Choice

kfrinkle said:


> Actually, i always use raw cane sugar, never the white granulized stuff. Always turns out fine for me.


 
Have you noticed a difference in taste or flavor using the raw cane versus the white granulized sugar?


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby said:


> Wow. Any off odors? What is the temp?
> 
> I racked a bunch of wine today; my last persimmon batch used some apple concentrate and is coming right along! It is plenty "appley." I dropped in a vanilla bean. I opened a bottle of unoaked straight up persimmon from last year and it was also very good.



Sorry for the slow response. No off odors at the moment, and temp is at 60F. This is the coldest fermentation temp i have had for persimmon. I am thinking of going to a three times a day must breaking schedule over Turkey Break.


----------



## kfrinkle

Gowers Choice said:


> Have you noticed a difference in taste or flavor using the raw cane versus the white granulized sugar?



I prefer the raw sugar, it does impart a different flavor and color, be forewarned. I personally think it really adds an extra level of complexity to the taste. But hey, each to their own right?


----------



## kfrinkle

So fermentation is still going on, the cap is getting smaller and more manageable. Temps still down near 60F. I am unable to get a SG reading due to the thickness and will just wing it on when to rack to secondary. It has been seven days thus far, will give it at leat a few more days, maybe even a week. The cap on this stuff really seals off the must from the rest of the world well inbetween break ups. Also, I only had a SLIGHTLY off smell for about half a day. It now smells almost lije really ripe mangoes, very interesting. I think lower temps are the way to go, specially with champagne yeast. I am going to add more sugar today, hoping that more alcoho, will help break the sludge down more.


----------



## kfrinkle

So, I racked off on Tuesday. I will have to admit, I was HORRIBLY disappointed. I had started with approximately 15 gallons of whole persimmons, 10+ gallons of water plus a decent amount of sugar. I started transferring from my stainless steel beast and it was like pushing sludge through a straw. Luckily my hose had a reasonable diameter and I was able to make it happen. However, the sad part was that I ended up with 10 gallons spread across two 6 gallon carboys. I had expected to get three 6 gallon carboys completely topped off. Furthermore, I had hoped that the press piston on my Blichmann Wineeasy would help press extra liquid out of the remaining sludge. It did not, that persimmon sludge was so incompressible that it was not worth me getting the press piston out to press it in the first place. I scooped out three 5 gallon buckets of sludge from the bottom of my primary. So in essence, the amount of water I put in is about the amount of liquid I get out.

So now my two 6 gallon carboys are sitting in the garage, airlocks burping like mad, and I think I will be lucky if I get 5 gallons free and clear from those two together due to sediment buildup. *sigh*

Moral here for me is that I will be doing persimmon in small batches from now on, and I will be putting them through a rice strainer to get just the pulp before I start a batch. Luckily, I have another 5 gallons at least, stored in my freezer and I think I can get maybe two more batches started with what I have.


----------



## Stressbaby

I feel your pain.

I tried steam juicing 5# of persimmons last weekend - a waste of time. I flogged those persimmons for 2 hours and ended up with 3 cups of purple juice. I didn't get an SG on it but the juice was just barely sweet and the persimmon character was gone.


----------



## Gowers Choice

I have six 5 gallon batches of persimmon going now, and from the looks of them I don't expect any more than 15-17 gallons of wine to bottle. But that is the nature of the beast when it comes to persimmons, but still worth it, one of my favorites.


----------



## ChrisTom

Making my first batch of wine ever a persimmon wine. (not new to brewing, just winemaking) The varietal I believe is the Hachiya. I have a very large and old persimmon tree in my backyard and wanted to try something different with the persimmons this winter. The persimmons this year were unbelievable! Two persimmons = 1#! I skinned, mashed, and removed the seeds although my persimmons are practically seedless. My persimmons are also nearly a jelly consistency when ripe.

I used Jack Keller's recipe (x 5) straight except for having used D47. On day 6 (now) the head has settled down a little but since I did not use a mesh sack I was unable to get a good initial SG which is definitely bothersome. I'm a little concerned that the recipe calls for too much sugar given that my persimmons are incredibly sweet when ripe. The good news is that I'm not having trouble with fermentation as I've had at least a 2-3in. frothing head since pitching. The batch smells fine, definitely alcoholic but still sweet.

I've added only half the sugar (~6#) as per the recipe but any suggestions on adding more? I'm thinking of just straining to secondary and seeing what happens maybe adding 3# more. Should I try and clear some up by filtering to get a good SG before doing any of this? My hydrometer just seems to float like crazy but reads well in tap. Temps not an issue.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Stressbaby

American persimmons or Asian?


----------



## ChrisTom

Hachiya is the Asian persimmon. I ended up straining and racking into a carboy. After straining out the pulp I ended up with exactly 5 gallons so I was pleased with that. There is a slight astringency that I hope clears up but it was definitely pleasant at 6 days. I think there is just too much CO2 to get a good SG reading.


----------



## Gowers Choice

Racked my six batches off the sludge tonight. Went from 30 gal of wine and sludge, down to around 15-16 gal's of straight wine. Blended a batch of cotes de blanc's with a natural yeast batch, and blended a batch of champagne with some cotes de blanc. Will bottle late February.


----------



## Stressbaby

Gowers, 
Could you post your recipe(s)?


----------



## Gowers Choice

All of our wine is very basic. Just hand picked fruit, yeast and sugar. The persimmon is a little different in that we cut the persimmon slop with water while in the primary. Other than that we use 2 lbs of sugar per gallon of wine, so 10 lbs for a 5 gal carboy. It's usually 2-5 days in the primary for most batches, and then 120 days in the carboy before bottling. For the most part we use Cotes de Blanc yeast for all our wine. I have several cousins and uncles who never add store bought yeast to their wine, it's always the natural yeast off the fruit. The batch of persimmon I did this year with the natural yeast probably had the best flavor of the 6 batches we made.

All this comes from my grandfathers recipe/methods which he brought over from Germany in the late 1800's.


----------



## Gowers Choice

btw, we made our persimmon in two different batches. Roughly 50 lbs of persimmons cut with around 12 gal's of water. This made three 5 gal carboys worth. For the first 3 days we stirred the mixture up regularly while in the primary, then gave it 2 days the settle and siphoned off the top. There was still plenty of fruit suspended in it, because the carboys still ended up being around 25%-33% sludge.


----------



## Stressbaby

I collected about 60# last year and I'm finally getting around to making some wine from them.

This batch, intended to yield 3 gal:
20# persimmons
3 cans Welch's white grape concentrate
Sugar: 5#
Campden:4 tabs
Yeast nutrient: 3t stepwise
Yeast energizer:	3/4t
Tannin: 1t
Pectic enzyme:	12t divided
Acid blend:	5T
4 gal water

SG starts at 1.085. pH 3.06. Going with K1-V1116 and standard energizer/nutrient (rather than GoFerm/Fermaid-K), but might bump that to 4t of nutrient. The plan is to watch the temps closely today and tomorrow and not let the thing heat up. Bentonite day 3.


----------



## Stressbaby

Update: down to 1.020, so far so good. Very hard to know the proper volume on this wine considering the fruit bag is around 1.5 gal and the pulp will be another 2 gal or so. It is up to the top of the bucket but hasn't overflowed. Rotating ice packs every 8-12 hours and with that I've been successful keeping the temp under 21C (70F) for the entire fermentation. Added bentonite 10g this morning.


----------



## ChrisTom

Finished first batch of persimmon wine! Using Jack Keller's recipe (using D47), very roughly adjusted for the brix of the must, turned out great. The wine at bottling was totally drinkable and resembled. Since the initial SG is a mystery I have no idea what alcohol content is. Very crisp and refreshing profile though. I have absolutely no qualms other than realizing I need a hydrometer with a greater scale or multiple hydrometers as the initial SG was higher than I could read. I let it dry out/bulk age for six months and bottled last weekend. I bottled 187ml x 48 as single serving samplers for friends and 750ml x 12 for aging.


----------



## Stressbaby

ChrisTom,
Very nice!
I actually just opened a bottle of my persimmon wine from 2012...very pleased to say that it knocked my socks off! Very nice dry white wine! Unfortunately I ruined 2/3 of this batch by trying to oak it. However, I still have 40# of persimmons from last year.


----------



## Stressbaby

Update:
I bumped the fruit in this batch to 20# and that was a volumetric mistake. By doing so, I 1) added 25% more pulp and 2) reduced the room in the primary. So now after getting the wine off the pulp I am 1/2 gal short of the 3 gal target. I'm hopeful but not optimistic that the pulp will settle a little more and I can squeeze another 1/2 gal out of the 1.5gal of pulpy stuff I have left.


----------



## Stressbaby

Update:

The 3 gallon batch above has fallen clear thanks to the bentonite. It is a little sharp, so I started a second 3 gallon batch, similar recipe:

16# persimmons
3 cans Welch's white grape concentrate
Sugar: 6#
Campden:4 tabs
GoFerm 1t
Fermaid K 1 tsp, divided
Tannin: 1t
Pectic enzyme:	12t divided
Acid blend:	2T + 1t
4.5 gal water
K1-V1116

SG 1.085. pH 3.59. I used Fermaid K and GoFerm. Ice packs to keep the temp down. More sugar, presumably due to the fact that there is more water. We're at 1.020 and so far, so good. 

The plan is to blend these two batches and get something with a level of acidity I like.


----------



## kfrinkle

Finally bottled my 2012 persimmon. Came out really nice and smooth, has a serious honey undertone to it. Started two 5 gallon batches today with what was left in my freezer. Used the ricer, which helped. I have up on measuring SG and just threw about 6 lbs in each bucket. I had almost 5 gallons of awesome puree to begin with, split it into a 6 and 4 gallon batch in my 7 and 5 gallon plastic primaries.

I did try making a batch in my 30 gallon stainless steel primary last fall. That ended up being a disaster. I got 5 gallons out of it, still bubbling in a carboy right now. I did not ricer the persimmons on that batch though. Never again.

It was a good persimmon year for sure, but I will be glad when these two batches I just started are under airlock. What a pain this stuff is to make, thank god it tastes great. But you gotta do what you gotta do, I needed my freezer space back!


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle said:


> It was a good persimmon year for sure, but I will be glad when these two batches I just started are under airlock. What a pain this stuff is to make, thank god it tastes great. But you gotta do what you gotta do, I needed my freezer space back!



Haha. I'm still not sure I agree with you that it tastes "great." I've made 150# of persimmons into wine now over 7-8 batches and I have yet to have one I would call great. I have high hopes for the last two batches.


----------



## kfrinkle

You know, when the weather gets cold this fall, remind me and I will ship you a bottle of mine... 

I used champagne yeast on my current two batches and things were already going to town this AM. One bucket is still seriously too think, the other has a little more fluidity to it. I am thinking of adding a little more water to the thicker sludged bucket, thoughts?


----------



## Stressbaby

Persimmons are here! Just picked up the first of the 2014 batch. The rate limiting step in my persimmon gathering this year will be freezer room.

The blended batch from 2013 persimmons is clear and is tasting pretty good.


----------



## ChrisTom

Unfortunately we pruned back our persimmon tree too far to produce enough fruit to do anything with. The birds got most of the ripe fruits. I have high hopes for next years' harvest and wine though. I have no regrets using D47 and Jack Keller's recipe and will likely use it again with only minor modifications. I only have two bottles left from 2013 and there's a good reason for it; it was so good we rationed it. Everyone that tried it, loved it, especially the oldest stuff. I didn't think that this wine would get much better after year. In fact, I thought it would be garbage after a year but it's the best it has ever been. Next year I'm going to use real cork and bottle age the bulk of it for a year. Mine, even after six months of bulk aging, continued to very slowly ferment. It bottle conditioned in a year to nearly sparkling wine. I personally think removing the skin really helped make my persimmon wine what it is. The fruit is tannic enough without the skin IMHO. 

Also, the Japanese cultivar "Hachiya," what I have, will likely produce a distinctly different wine than the North American variety. I don't know if anyone else wants to chime in on that.


----------



## Stressbaby

ChrisTom said:


> Also, the Japanese cultivar "Hachiya," what I have, will likely produce a distinctly different wine than the North American variety. I don't know if anyone else wants to chime in on that.



I'm sure that this is the case. I just dumped my last 8 gallons of (native) persimmon wine down the drain. It has proven very difficult, for me anyway, to get a drinkable wine from this fruit unfortunately.

It is nearly impossible to separate skins with the native persimmon, particularly after they are frozen. After seeing a recipe for elderberry wine that used persimmon juice made from cooking (boiling) the persimmons, I thought I'd try that next.


----------



## kfrinkle

Stressbaby,

I ended up not picking persimmons this year, but I did bottle last years a week or so ago. When spring comes, I would like to ship you a bottle of mine, let me know what you think..... I love the taste of this stuff. I would like to see if mine tastes just like yours and you are just not fond of it, or if there is a distinct difference.

-karl


----------



## Stressbaby

kfrinkle, that would be awesome.
I will try to reciprocate in some way.


----------

