# French Oak vs. Eastern European Oak



## Tin_Man (Feb 5, 2022)

Hello all, 

I am curious to hear thoughts on French Oak barrels vs. Eastern European Oak (Hungarian) barrels. These two types of barrels are actually made from the same species of tree (Quercus petraea or Quercus robur). Is there any difference then?


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## Jovimaple (Feb 6, 2022)

I don't have an answer to your question, but welcome to WMT!


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## mainshipfred (Feb 6, 2022)

I think you will find the general consensus is there is a difference and it all depends on which forest they come from. I believe France has five main forests and Hungary has three but the same species is also grown in other Eastern European countries. They have different soils, elevations and climates (terroir) which play a part in flavor profiles. For cost reasons I stick with the Hungarian.


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## She’sgonnakillme (Feb 6, 2022)

I have both a Hungarian and French barrel that are both in the “break in” stage and only on their second wine. After leaving wines in both for four weeks, the French version was more pronounced, it will be interesting to see how the second batch from each turns out after 8 weeks. I would encourage you to read @winemaker81’s oak experiment logs as he had some great observations noted that may answer your questions


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## winemaker81 (Feb 6, 2022)

As @mainshipfred pointed out, there is a difference between French and Hungarian oak.

I am struggling with an answer, as I can tell you _my _taste, but that doesn't mean yours is the same. That said:

French oak produces a more sour taste than Hungarian, and in my winemaking I prefer Hungarian. Yet I'm a fan of Bordeaux and Rhone wines. Like Fred advises, go with the cheaper barrel.

The oak stix experiment that @She’sgonnakillme mentions is on my web site (see my sig). The link is listed on my home page.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 6, 2022)

Here is what can be found at morewinemaking.com:



> French Oak Flavor Summary
> All toast levels have a perceived aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel.
> French oak has a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes*. (*Especially at higher toast levels.)
> As the toast levels increased the fruity descriptor for the wine changed from fresh to jammy to cooked fruit/raisin in character.
> ...


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## Tin_Man (Feb 6, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> As @mainshipfred pointed out, there is a difference between French and Hungarian oak.
> 
> I am struggling with an answer, as I can tell you _my _taste, but that doesn't mean yours is the same. That said:
> 
> ...



@winemaker81 I found your website, and the oak stix experiment, and totally loved it! I am impressed that you have recorded that much data over that much time. A true marvel.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2022)

At our level of wine making, I believe the main difference between French Oak and Hungarian Oak barrels is that the French Oak costs more.


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## Glidewaves (Feb 7, 2022)

In general, they use more Hungarian oak in Italy. When I make Italian varieties I use Hungarian either barrel or cubes.


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## balatonwine (Feb 7, 2022)

Why are you not considering American Oak?


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## winemaker81 (Feb 7, 2022)

From what I read, pre-WWI, the French used Hungarian oak. The war cut supply lines so they switched to their native oak, and never switched back.


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## Tin_Man (Feb 7, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Why are you not considering American Oak?



From my experience I believe American oak to be inferior for winemaking. It's a completely different species of tree (Quercus alba). It also grows faster, meaning it has looser grain. Loose grain is less porous and more fibrous meaning more tannin extraction. It can make the wines quite harsh in barrel. 

French or Hungarian oak is usually tighter grain (slower growth). Tighter grain is more porous with less fibers. These pores better regulate oxygen exchange over time, tannin extraction is usually better too. 

You can actually measure the grain on your barrels at the croze where the staves end.

Again, just my opinion, but there is some science behind it.


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## balatonwine (Feb 7, 2022)

Tin_Man said:


> Again, just my opinion, but there is some science behind it.



Thank you for the reply.

Different oaks simply create different wines. If you like the types of wine they make or not is less science and more preference and market pressure.....






A comparison of French, Hungarian, and American Oaks | MoreWine







morewinemaking.com





If you do not like the wine one oak makes over another, that is fine. But then you still need to really consider what @mainshipfred said, since location even within a country will matter.

Side note: I live in Hungary, if you did not check.... so my choice of oak, if used, is based on locality... slow foodish concept, and supporting local economies..... If I lived in Texas, I would probably buy American. But that is just me. Which is the only reason really why I asked.


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## winemanden (Feb 7, 2022)

Going by what I've read, American Oak barrels were used to give Spanish Rioja wines a taste of vanilla.


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## Kitchen (Feb 17, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Why are you not considering American Oak?



The main issue with American oak is that it is not seasoned as long since it is predominantly used in Bourbon barrels that are looking for an intense in your face flavor. Most cooperages will only let their American staves season for 6 months. They are also not as interested in only using the highest quality staves. Wine barrels need to be tighter since wine has no sugar in it. Bourbon barrels do not need to be made to as high of a standard since the sugar in the bourbon will help plug any loose spots. 

In contrast, cooperages that specialize in wine barrels let their staves season for at least 2 years, which allows for a softer flavor profile.

I have a sour cherry mead sitting in a new American oak barrel that had staves seasoning for three years and made to the same standards as a wine barrel. I thought for sure the favor would be intense, since that is the reputation American oak has. The cooper assured me otherwise. It's been 10 month so far and the flavor is still mild and progressing like an European wine barrel would.

With that said, American oak does have a very different flavor profile, think sweat coconut with hints of dill, eucalyptus, mint. There is still vanilla, but really none of the baking spices that European oak is known for.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 17, 2022)

Kitchen said:


> The main issue with American oak is that it is not seasoned as long since it is predominantly used in Bourbon barrels that are looking for an intense in your face flavor. Most cooperages will only let their American staves season for 6 months. They are also not as interested in only using the highest quality staves. Wine barrels need to be tighter since wine has no sugar in it. Bourbon barrels do not need to be made to as high of a standard since the sugar in the bourbon will help plug any loose spots.


Where are you getting your information? I found several American cooperages for wine barrels, and all claimed 24 months of seasoning. For bourbon barrels, it varied from 6 months to 24 months. Wine barrels are toasted while bourbon barrels are apparently charred.

Bourbon has no sugar in it. Unlike blended whiskey's which often are colored with caramel, bourbon gets it's color and vanilla taste from the new oak.


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## Jim Welch (Feb 17, 2022)

From my reading on various whiskeys, my understanding is that the "sugar" in Bourbon is from the sugar in the Oak barrel that gets leached out during aging, I believe the charring plays a role in how much sugar is available to be leached out iirc. Residual sugar in the whiskey wash gets trapped in the still pot, I don't think sugar can be distilled at the temp range alcohol is distilled except perhaps microscopic amounts perhaps, if sugar can be distilled at all.


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## Siwash (Feb 17, 2022)

Tin_Man said:


> It's a completely different species of tree (Quercus alba).



That's actually not entirely accurate.. yes they are different, but both quercus are part of the white oak family.


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## Tin_Man (Feb 17, 2022)




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## balatonwine (Feb 20, 2022)

Kitchen said:


> With that said, American oak does have a very different flavor profile, think sweat coconut with hints of dill, eucalyptus, mint. There is still vanilla, but really none of the baking spices that European oak is known for.



Thanks for such details. Appreciated. Which is basically what I said: The oak will create different wines. If you like that wine or not is a personal issue.

*Rant:* But again, still I wonder, why an American wine maker would not want to create an American wine? Rather than a European "like" wine. I understand the market pressure to make every wine taste like it came from France... but why should that be? Maybe time to move away from over powerful "influencers" in the industry (dare I name names?). Great things are being done with creative ideas in distilled beverages and beers, yet the wine makers still cling to trying to make their wine taste like some French winery. To my way of thinking, that is maybe a little bit silly. Of course I often operate outside the norm. But I have done well for myself over the years seeing around curves. Take that for what it is worth. Hope this helps.

*Side note:* Wine industry needs to change:









The Wine Business Sees a Problem: Millennials Aren’t Drinking Enough


As baby boomers retire and buy less wine, producers need new ways to tempt a White Claw generation back from other alcoholic drinks, according to a new report.




www.nytimes.com


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## Siwash (Feb 20, 2022)

Well we all mostly live in North America abs yet we prefer foods, wines, even customs that are not "american" whatever that is... wine itself isn't american. It was brought to this continent by Europeans. And wine consumption was low in the USA until the post war years.


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## balatonwine (Feb 20, 2022)

Siwash said:


> wine itself isn't american.



If you want to take that tack, actually most "Americans" are not American either (really European, Asian, African, etc).

So you can see that entirely misses the point...... 

Let us talk about modern American wine options: as in current and future wine making possibilities. Not the past.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 20, 2022)

For what is worth the for our five commercial winemakers I know use both French and American oak. They each bring their own tastes to the wine.


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## balatonwine (Feb 20, 2022)

This video of traditional cooperage wine barrel making in Portugal. They are using oak imported from the USA. The entire video is great to watch. But I am inserting it here at the point where it says they are using wood imported from the USA:


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## winemaker81 (Feb 20, 2022)

@balatonwine, thanks for posting the video. It was fascinating to watch. I want one of his barrels!! [No, I'm not joking!]

This really makes me appreciate the effort and skill that goes into a barrel.

On topic, I'm still experimenting with oak varieties. So far I'm liking American oak for fermentation, as it provides a basic fruitiness. For aging, I'm leaning towards Hungarian. An interesting experiment would be to make 2 batches of wine -- one with American for fermentation and Hungarian for aging, and reverse that for the second batch.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 2, 2022)

cmason1957 said:


> For what is worth the for our five commercial winemakers I know use both French and American oak. They each bring their own tastes to the wine.


I have never used American oak in winemaking, Only French oak and thats how its been at the wineries I have worked at. I have always been taught that French oak is generally just superior and none of the winemakers ive studied under have had high opinions of American oak barrels.


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## tullamore (Mar 2, 2022)

i have all 3 - depending on what i'm making 
example - all my italian wines go in Hungarian barrels -
my zins and petit sirah, spanish varietals tend to do better in american oak - sometimes i throw in a cab as well
Bordeaux blends, chards go in french oak
there is no right or wrong answer - 
if a wine is made properly it will do well in any of the 3 oaks - and all with 3 different taste profiles


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 2, 2022)

tullamore said:


> i have all 3 - depending on what i'm making
> example - all my italian wines go in Hungarian barrels -
> my zins and petit sirah, spanish varietals tend to do better in american oak - sometimes i throw in a cab as well
> Bordeaux blends, chards go in french oak
> ...


I use French oak in my Zinfandel, tend to prefer medium toast.

I just like the characteristics it adds.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 2, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> I use French oak in my Zinfandel, tend to prefer medium toast.
> 
> I just like the characteristics it adds.



But, if I am following your comments correctly, you have never actually compared it to American oak. Is that correct, or did I miss something?


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 3, 2022)

sour_grapes said:


> But, if I am following your comments correctly, you have never actually compared it to American oak. Is that correct, or did I miss something?


I have personally used French oak only but I worked at a winery that used American oak for Zinfandel but it wasn’t my choice so whilst I’ve not personally used American oak I’ve had wines for comparison.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 3, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> I have personally used French oak only but I worked at a winery that used American oak for Zinfandel but it wasn’t my choice so whilst I’ve not personally used American oak I’ve had wines for comparison.



Okay, great. Good to know. It was this that threw me:



Nebbiolo020 said:


> I have never used American oak in winemaking, Only French oak and thats how its been at the wineries I have worked at.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 3, 2022)

sour_grapes said:


> Okay, great. Good to know. It was this that threw me:


Yeah, that was the exception, but on all the wines I’ve been responsible for I just like French oak and I’ve tested some Hungarian oak.

my favorite barrel maker is Seguin Moreau.


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## balatonwine (Mar 4, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> I have always been taught that French oak is generally just superior



If one wants to make a wine like a French wine, this may be true. I may even agree.

But French wine styles are only one option in making wine. They may be common and economically marketable, but who is to say they are really "superior" since wine is often a matter of personal taste.

So maybe generically calling French oak superior, for all wine varieties, may be a bit over rated and simply an opinion. Maybe "superior" simply means "what I expect". And if so, maybe an opinion that may limit experimentation and exploring options that may lead to amazing results which some other people may prefer. As always, always IMHO (in my humble opinon). Hope this helps.


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## tullamore (Mar 4, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> If one wants to make a wine like a French wine, this may be true. I may even agree.
> 
> But French wine styles are only one option in making wine. They may be common and economically marketable, but who is to say they are really "superior" since wine is often a matter of personal taste.
> 
> So maybe generically calling French oak superior, for all wine varieties, may be a bit over rated and simply an opinion. Maybe "superior" simply means "what I expect". And if so, maybe an opinion that may limit experimentation and exploring options that may lead to amazing results which some other people may prefer. As always, always IMHO (in my humble opinon). Hope this helps.


totally totally agree - its all about personal taste - this debate about what oak to use is old and never gets resolved - there is no right or wrong
in my wine group three of us will make the same blend - all 3 are oaked separate in American, french and hungarian 
after 1 year we all share the 3 different wines - each oak brings something different to the table - this is the fun part about wine making - trying different things
one likes this one a little more than the other , etc..... the beauty part of this is i have the luxury of all 3 different types of oak barrels 
this i will share a little tidbit - -living in ontario Canada- and knowing a wine barrel distributor - says American oak is used more than what people know -


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## winemanden (Mar 5, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Thanks for such details. Appreciated. Which is basically what I said: The oak will create different wines. If you like that wine or not is a personal issue.
> 
> *Rant:* But again, still I wonder, why an American wine maker would not want to create an American wine? Rather than a European "like" wine. I understand the market pressure to make every wine taste like it came from France... but why should that be? Maybe time to move away from over powerful "influencers" in the industry (dare I name names?). Great things are being done with creative ideas in distilled beverages and beers, yet the wine makers still cling to trying to make their wine taste like some French winery. To my way of thinking, that is maybe a little bit silly. Of course I often operate outside the norm. But I have done well for myself over the years seeing around curves. Take that for what it is worth. Hope this helps.
> 
> ...


It's the 'MARKET'! When you've got thousands of Dollars tied up in a vintage, you've got to sell it. Sometimes you've got to set you're own tastes aside just to survive. With all that money and future at stake, it takes a brave man to be different.


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## balatonwine (Mar 5, 2022)

winemanden said:


> It's the 'MARKET'! When you've got thousands of Dollars tied up in a vintage, you've got to sell it. Sometimes you've got to set you're own tastes aside just to survive. With all that money and future at stake, it takes a brave man to be different.



Yes, I know it is the market. Thought it was pretty obvious when I said I "understand the market pressure".

My *rant* was more pontificating about entrepreneur like myself who take on personal risk, versus those that are risk avoidance. So you basically only repeated what I said.

So what I was saying is those that are willing to risk might find or create marvelous things. Not simply maintaining the status quo. Most of your life is surrounded by things created by entrepreneurs who took personal risks for their ideas. What you call "brave men" (and women) really define and drive the world. Not risk avoiders. But of course I felt that was all fairly obvious. And since contained in a defined "*rant*" I hope everyone can take that for what it is worth: My opinion (and to some my opinion my be worth less than dirt, which is okay, as that is their opinion). But I hardly need education.  Hope this helps.


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## tullamore (Mar 5, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Yes, I know it is the market. Thought it was pretty obvious when I said I "understand the market pressure".
> 
> My *rant* was more pontificating about entrepreneur like myself who take on personal risk, versus those that are risk avoidance. So you basically only repeated what I said.
> 
> So what I was saying is those that are willing to risk might find or create marvelous things. Not simply maintaining the status quo. Most of your life is surrounded by things created by entrepreneurs who took personal risks for their ideas. What you call "brave men" (and women) really define and drive the world. Not risk avoiders. But of course I felt that was all fairly obvious. And since contained in a defined "*rant*" I hope everyone can take that for what it is worth: My opinion (and to some my opinion my be worth less than dirt, which is okay, as that is their opinion). But I hardly need education.  Hope this helps.


not many people think outside the box - or roll the dice - they have many opinions and there are too many monday morning quarterbacks - which s fine - everyone has the right to voice their opinions 
this is we are who we are - ENTREPRENEURS!! - we take the risks and the rewards and the lumps!!
there's no can't in our world - But - we put smiles upon peoples faces!!!!!!
so Balatonewine i salute u - from one risk taker to another!!!!!!!!


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## Gilmango (Mar 5, 2022)

Tin_Man said:


> View attachment 84790


Or, as I was taught in 9th grade biology class, King Phillip Came Over From Germany Saturday.

Turns out my school was an outlier as Wikipedia says: King Phillip Came Over For Good Spaghetti Taxonomy mnemonic - Wikipedia

"Do kindly place candy out for good students" (adding Domain)
"Keep pond clean or fish get sick"[1]
"Kings play chess on fancy glass stools"

also
In the Community episode "Virtual Systems Analysis" (S03E16), the character of Pierce Hawthorne uses the mnemonic "*K*evin, *P*lease *C*ome *O*ver *F*or *G*ay *S*ex."
In The Mentalist episode "Fugue in Red" (S04E10), the character of Patrick Jane uses the mnemonic "*K*ids *P*refer *C*heese *O*ver *F*ried *G*reen *S*pinach."

Then I found this whole hoard KPCOFGS - King Phillip Came Over From Germany Stoned (mnemonic for taxonomy Order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species) | AcronymFinder: 

*King Phillip Came Over From Germany Stoned *
Kids Prefer Cheese Over Fried Green Spinach (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Paul Cried Out for Good Soup (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Phil Cleans Octopi For Gene Simmons (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Philip Came Over For Good Spaghetti (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Philip Came Over for Grape Soda (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Philip Come Out For Goodness Sake (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Philip Couldn't Order Five Good Sandwiches (Mnemonic for Taxonomy Order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Phillip Came Over for Good Sex (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Phillip Came Over For Good Soup (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Phillip Came Over from Germany Sick (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Phillip Came Over From Great Spain (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Phillip Crossed Over France Going South (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Plute Came Out From Giant School (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
King Prawn Curry or Fat Greasy Sausages (taxonomy mnemonic)
Kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Species King Philip Can Only Find Green Socks (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species (taxonomy order)
Kings Play Chess on Fat Girls' Stomachs (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
Kings Play Chess on Fat Green Stools (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
Kings Play Chess On Fine Glass Surfaces (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)
Kings Play Chess on Fine Gold Sets (mnemonic for taxonomy order: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species)


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## Jim Welch (Jun 14, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> This video of traditional cooperage wine barrel making in Portugal. They are using oak imported from the USA. The entire video is great to watch. But I am inserting it here at the point where it says they are using wood imported from the USA:



that is an awesome video!


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