# Early Sulfur Smells in Must Fermentation



## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

Hi, I'm new to the forum and have read a lot of threads about my questions, but i think i just have too many to find all of the answers.

I am 3 days into my primary fermentation with muscadines and plums, everything seems to rolling pretty well, but since day 2 I am smelling a hint of sulfur coming from my fermentation bucket. 

I have 6 gallons of must in a 7.5 Gal fermenting bucket
using 1 packet red star montrachet yeast

I have already added the appropriate amount of camden tablets and let sit covered with cheese cloth for 24 hours, then I added Pectic Enzyme and let sit for 12 hours before adding my yeast starter.

After the 2nd day of fermentation is whenever I first noticed the light hint of sulfur, I stirred well and let it continue.

Day 3 there a more pungent smell of Sulfur, I stirred again and added a half dose of yeast nutrient.

Do you think there is chance that I might need to add more more yeast? I don't think I have an infection, only overworked yeast. 

Any advice would be very helpful, I just want to be able to take of the problem as quickly as possible.

Thanks in Advance!


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## Johnd (Nov 30, 2016)

Acast285 said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forum and have read a lot of threads about my questions, but i think i just have too many to find all of the answers.
> 
> I am 3 days into my primary fermentation with muscadines and plums, everything seems to rolling pretty well, but since day 2 I am smelling a hint of sulfur coming from my fermentation bucket.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you have things in the right order and well in hand. H2S is indicative of stressed yeast, although I believe a faint odor is present in many of my ferments even when things are on track.

The more pungent smell should be of concern, several common things can stress your yeast, too low of a pH, not enough nutrients, temperatures outside of the recommended ranges come to mind as common issues. If your temps are in the 70-75F range, that should be good. If your pH isn't much below 3.2 ish, that should be good too.

I doubt you need more yeast, but suspect that you may be a little nutrient deficient if other factors are in line. Have you hit the 1/3 sugar depletion mark and added your next half dose? You didn't say what nutrient you are using, but when I get a strong H2S smell, I hit it with 1/3 dose of DAP, which usually knocks it out very quickly, and continue on with my Fermaid K nutrient plan.


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## ceeaton (Nov 30, 2016)

+1 what @Johnd sez. Also stay away from the refried or baked beans for a while.

Oh, and welcome to WMT!


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## Johnd (Nov 30, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Also stay away from the refried or baked beans for a while.



Oh my..................that's some really bad Dad humor!!!!!


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

Haha! I have it staged in a closet, it's keeping a constant 72 deg temp, and as of this morning my girlfriend is referring to is as the fart closet.


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

I will take another SG reading this evening and determine my sugar depletion. I ordered a digital ph scale, but it won't deliver until Friday. Do you think that if it's a PH issue, it might be too late by friday?


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## Johnd (Nov 30, 2016)

Acast285 said:


> I will take another SG reading this evening and determine my sugar depletion. I ordered a digital ph scale, but it won't deliver until Friday. Do you think that if it's a PH issue, it might be too late by friday?



Unless you picked your muscadines and grapes too soon, not really thinking it's a pH problem, my money is on the nutrients, but it's still good to know what your pH is.


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## whackfol (Nov 30, 2016)

In addition to a nutrient addition, give it a good stir. A little air can help with the fermentation. It's very young so you should not have to worry about oxidation.


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

whackfol said:


> In addition to a nutrient addition, give it a good stir. A little air can help with the fermentation. It's very young so you should not have to worry about oxidation.



After a good stir this morning it actually smelled pretty nice. I was considering taking the lid off and securing cheese cloth on the top again. Do you think it's too late in progress to do so?


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## ceeaton (Nov 30, 2016)

Acast285 said:


> Haha! I have it staged in a closet, it's keeping a constant 72 deg temp, and as of this morning my girlfriend is referring to is as the fart closet.



Well, I know how well a good fermentation "stinks" up the kitchen (and the rest of the house for that matter)("stinks" in my wife and kids opinions, not mine), so I can imagine it is pretty concentrated if it is in a small closet. Just don't go in there and close the door, you might pass out from too much CO2 and not enough O2 (though I'd suffocate with a smile on my face in that situation).


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

whackfol said:


> In addition to a nutrient addition, give it a good stir. A little air can help with the fermentation. It's very young so you should not have to worry about oxidation.



After a good stir this morning it actually smelled pretty nice. I was considering taking the lid off and securing cheese cloth on the top again. Do you think it's too late in progress to do so?


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

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Got home from work and the must was bubbling and stinking like crazy, here is a pic of what it looked like as soon as I took off the lid as well as the yeast nutrients I am using. Any other insight?




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## Johnd (Nov 30, 2016)

You should be punching that cap down several times per day, it'll help release all of the gases being generated, as well as improving extraction. 

I'm not familiar with that nutrient, but looked it up, should be fine. Dosage is 1 gram for each 5 liters.


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

Any idea what those light spots are?


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## ceeaton (Nov 30, 2016)

Acast285 said:


> Any idea what those light spots are?



Looks like CO2 and yeast forcing it's way through the cap. Like @Johnd said, you should be punching that thick cap down a couple of times a day to keep the skins moist (so the yeast can do their thing). Looks like your cap has cracks in it which leads me to think it is drying out a bit.


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## Acast285 (Nov 30, 2016)

Unfortunately during the week I'm only able to punch the cap down at 7 am and 6 pm, hopefully that won't cause issues. My main concern is the increased sulphur smell and if I might have an infection. I took an SG reading after stirring and it read 1.04 two days in. Is that a concern or am I just worried too much about the smell? My temp has increased to 76 degs.


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## whackfol (Nov 30, 2016)

Give your nutrient a look. I looked up what I think is the one you have and it does not have any DAP. If this is the case and you're not too far along, I'd hit it with some DAP. The products I know have the nutrients it appears are in yours plus some N. That's what you are missing.


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## Johnd (Dec 1, 2016)

Acast285 said:


> Unfortunately during the week I'm only able to punch the cap down at 7 am and 6 pm, hopefully that won't cause issues. My main concern is the increased sulphur smell and if I might have an infection. I took an SG reading after stirring and it read 1.04 two days in. Is that a concern or am I just worried too much about the smell? My temp has increased to 76 degs.



Punch as frequently as you can. It's ok that you can't punch in the day, but add a few in between 6 pm and 7am. 

Sulphur smell is not an infection, it's stressed yeast emitting H2S. At 1.040, you should have applied dose 2 of your nutrients, have you?


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## Acast285 (Dec 1, 2016)

I applied a half dose of nutrients on day two, and I plan on picking up some DAP this evening. Will I be good to add DAP this evening? Is it possible to add too much nutrient?


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## Acast285 (Dec 1, 2016)

My local homebrew shop sell these two items that contain DAP, which one would work best in your opinion?

http://www.lahomebrew.com/product-p/b101501.htm

http://www.lahomebrew.com/product-p/b100480.htm


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## whackfol (Dec 1, 2016)

I can't tell what's in the yeast energizer. The second appears to be DAP. That would be my choice. What you added earlier plus the DAP approximates what I use. Not sure where you are with your fermentation, but I suggest making a small addition of DAP first (maybe just 1/3 of recommended). You can add more. But too much, too late is not good either. The same nutrients that the yeast likes, bacteria likes.


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## Acast285 (Dec 1, 2016)

My original SG reading was 1.10, last night it read 1.04, do you think it's too late?


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## garymc (Dec 1, 2016)

I like Lalvin 71B-1122 for muscadines. The Montrachet only has an alcohol tolerance of 13% and you started at 1.1, so it might be close to done at 1.040 regarding adding more nutrient. 71B is 18%. Also Montrachet can produce H2S and other things. The cheesecloth would have been a good idea as soon as the yeast was pitched and punching down/stirring 2 or 3 or more times a day. I wonder about the stale air in the closet, too, not so much that the must won't get enough oxygen, but any odors produced will be very concentrated. Just that you'll notice it more. If the sulfur smell persists, you may have to splash rack it.


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## Acast285 (Dec 1, 2016)

What about adding a little more sugar and DAP, do you think that will help it to improve?


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## whackfol (Dec 1, 2016)

If you are still smelling h2s, My recommendation would be to add a little DAP and stir well. You're at 60% sugar depletion and don't want it to get stuck.


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## whackfol (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm more familiar with the Brix scale but I think both Brix and s.g have the same zero. Most of the vinifera grapes I have fermented go dry at below zero. I know little about muscadine wine. What is made in my area has some residual sugar. I don't know if this is a customer preference or how best to present muscadine. What are you shooting for.


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## ceeaton (Dec 1, 2016)

No more sugar unless you plan on pitching another yeast. As @garymc said, the alcohol tolerance of the yeast you pitched is below what your initial SG would produce if it went dry, so adding more sugar will only leave a higher residual sugar, plus a lot of your second addition of nutrient. I suggest punching down as much as you can, maybe add a small dose of dap (I'd prefer Fermaid O), and hope it finishes dry. You can Kmeta and backsweeten it later down the road, aim for dry at this point.


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## Acast285 (Dec 1, 2016)

I had an SG of 1.02 this evening, i punched down and stirred a good bit, added a half dose of DAP and capped with an airlock (I've been using a blow off tube in case I had too much must for the bucket) and it's bubbling nicely with little to no smell!


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## Acast285 (Dec 2, 2016)

Does this look like enough headroom to you guys?


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## ceeaton (Dec 2, 2016)

So did you rack it from a bucket, I'm feeling a little lost here as to what you are doing? I usually wait until it goes dry, then press the grapes and rack it into a carboy, wait a few days and rack it off the gross lees.


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## Acast285 (Dec 2, 2016)

Yes it was in a bucket, my SG was just over 1.00, so I went ahead and racked it this evening


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## Stressbaby (Dec 3, 2016)

That is about how much headspace I would leave if racking between 1.020 and 1.000. It's obviously still finishing fermentation, you have CO2 protection for the time being.


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## Stressbaby (Dec 3, 2016)

Also, I didn't see this directly addressed previously, but I have added an extra pinch of nutrient as late as 1.040 if I detect any off-odors. This practice has worked very well for me without any complications but I would welcome any more experienced winemakers to correct me on this if needed.


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## Acast285 (Dec 3, 2016)

I gave it a good stir this morning, my SG hasn't changed much since 6pm last night, still just under 1.01. I was able to take a PH reading this morning as well, and it's at 3.6 and my temp is at 68 deg F. Is that where my ph should be at this point?


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## ceeaton (Dec 3, 2016)

Acast285 said:


> I gave it a good stir this morning, my SG hasn't changed much since 6pm last night, still just under 1.01. I was able to take a PH reading this morning as well, and it's at 3.6 and my temp is at 68 deg F. Is that where my ph should be at this point?



As far as your pH I think you are fine, or at least that isn't a dangerous number (not too high, not too low). Muscadines have so much flavor that if the pH was too low additional sugar added at backsweetening would round it out. I defer to winemakers who have used the grapes before. I've enjoyed a wine my older brother made last Spring and decided at some point I need to make that wine.

So do you have just some of the skins in the carboy, or did you rack it off all of the skins and leave them behind in the bucket? If they are still in there, I'd get them out once your SG stays the same for three days in a row (they can stay in there a bit longer, but I wouldn't age long term with them in there, unless you are doing an experiment like @AZMDTed is doing with extended maceration).


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## Acast285 (Dec 3, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> As far as your pH I think you are fine, or at least that isn't a dangerous number (not too high, not too low). Muscadines have so much flavor that if the pH was too low additional sugar added at backsweetening would round it out. I defer to winemakers who have used the grapes before. I've enjoyed a wine my older brother made last Spring and decided at some point I need to make that wine.
> 
> So do you have just some of the skins in the carboy, or did you rack it off all of the skins and leave them behind in the bucket? If they are still in there, I'd get them out once your SG stays the same for three days in a row (they can stay in there a bit longer, but I wouldn't age long term with them in there, unless you are doing an experiment like @AZMDTed is doing with extended maceration).



I racked off majority of the skins, what you see at the top in the picture is just what came through the tube when racking. There's still a ton of fibers in there from the plums. Also I separated the Muscadine skins from the grapes and did not add the Muscadine skins in the primary. I did however include the plum and cranberry skins.

Will all of the fibers eventually sink to the bottom to rack out? At this point about half of the carboy looks to mixed in with a lot of fibers and I'm afraid it's going to displace the must so much I'm going to have to add some water to get the level back up.


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## Acast285 (Dec 3, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> As far as your pH I think you are fine, or at least that isn't a dangerous number (not too high, not too low). Muscadines have so much flavor that if the pH was too low additional sugar added at backsweetening would round it out. I defer to winemakers who have used the grapes before. I've enjoyed a wine my older brother made last Spring and decided at some point I need to make that wine.
> 
> So do you have just some of the skins in the carboy, or did you rack it off all of the skins and leave them behind in the bucket? If they are still in there, I'd get them out once your SG stays the same for three days in a row (they can stay in there a bit longer, but I wouldn't age long term with them in there, unless you are doing an experiment like @AZMDTed is doing with extended maceration).



I racked off majority of the skins, what you see at the top in the picture is just what came through the tube when racking. There's still a ton of fibers in there from the plums. Also I separated the Muscadine skins from the grapes and did not add the Muscadine skins in the primary. I did however include the plum and cranberry skins.

Will all of the fibers eventually sink to the bottom to rack out? At this point about half of the carboy looks to mixed in with a lot of fibers and I'm afraid it's going to displace the must so much I'm going to have to add some water to get the level back up.


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