# Maximum temp for wine storage



## Sammyk (Jan 24, 2013)

As per the title I am looking for the maximum temperature for aging/storing wine until it is drank.

I have a unique situation. While we have central air we do not use it. We don't mind the heat and have huge ceiling fans in every room

I have my wine in an upstairs bedroom. In the summer it can be 90 degrees in that room because it faces south. I will need to use a window air conditioner in that room.

So, what is the ideal storage temperature? Will 70 degrees work?


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## Rocky (Jan 24, 2013)

Sammyk, keeping the temps around 70 degrees is okay but it is on the high side (the "ideal" temperature and humidity are supposed to be 55 degrees F with 75% RH). An important consideration is relatively constant temperature, so if you could keep it from fluctuation, that would be better. Also protect it from UV light and vibration.


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## MrKevin (Jan 24, 2013)

Sammy

For Reds 70 would work thought not Ideal (ideal being 58+/-). The biggest problems is temperature fluctuations. I my opinion the upstairs is about the worst place to store wines. But if you can keep the room temp stable and as low as possible you can probably make it work. This will cause the wine to mature faster. I'm sure others will chime in and correct me if I'm incorrect. 
Whites should be kept pretty cool about 55+/-, so find some place else or get a good wine fridge. 

Kevin


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## Sammyk (Jan 24, 2013)

Unfortunately there is no other place. Garage will get too warm. No basement. We tried them under the house in a crawl space and mold/mildew grew on the outside of the carboys.
I can close the blinds and keep the sun out.

We have about 300 bottles so a fridge is out.


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## ibglowin (Jan 24, 2013)

70 is a whole lot better than 90! Just remember that 55 is the magic temp to age a red wine to perfection. Just because you don't have that temp doesn't mean your wines will be destroyed. It just means that they will age faster and go downhill quicker than if stored at 55. You will still get years of age time in which to drink them but not as much as if kept at ~55. Keeping the area as cool as possible (close to 55) in the Winter will help slow the overall aging process. Large daily temperature fluctuations are actually worse for a wine than a warmer but static temp. Keep it as cool as possible and keep the temp as stable as possible. Add insulation (12" attic blanket) to the area above where the wine will be stored. This will greatly dampen the temp swings year round. Use the window AC in the Summer for the "cellar".


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## TonyP (Jan 24, 2013)

Sammy, 300 bottles is enough wine that I'd find the best location. And the best location is where it is coolest, given that somewhere close to 70F will probably be your best. My suggestion is to find that place and go with it. It may be under your room air conditioner.


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## Sammyk (Jan 24, 2013)

Right now we have them in the walk in closet with the door closed and it is staying in the 60's. We have the register shut, the blinds closed and the main door closed. It is also winter. Because it is upstairs we are worried about the weight even though it is a good sized walk in closet.
There is no other place in our home to put the wine.
If the weight was not a problem (and we are not sure if the weight IS a problem) we would find an air conditioner to put in the closet but there is no window in the closet and I think you have to have a window for an air conditioner.

I never intended to get so far into wine making but YOU are all enablers! LOL!!


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## Rocky (Jan 24, 2013)

Sammy, weight should not be a problem if the footprint of your wine rack is at least 4 square feet. I estimate that the wine and the bottles weigh between 650 and 700 pounds plus the rack. Even if the rack weighed 100 pounds, that would be a load of 200 lbs/sq. ft. Unless you have a very old house (pre 1900) you should be fine.


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## dangerdave (Jan 24, 2013)

I've got your solution, Sammy! Start pulling up floor boards. Depending on the design of your house, you may be able to build some wooden box units inbetween your floor joists. Line the boxes with some form of vapor barrier to prevent moisture/mold from the crawl space. Use the priviously removed floor boards to create hinged hatches to access the space and _voila_!

Oh, and you are _very_ welcome! Don't mention it!


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## Thig (Jan 24, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> We tried them under the house in a crawl space and mold/mildew grew on the outside of the carboys.



Sammy, not related to your question and probably even less my business but if you have mold growing under the house not only is the wine in danger but your house also. Mold is usually a sign of excess moisture and inadequate ventilation. If you fixed those problems you might be able to store the wine under there. Could be something as simple as putting down a moisture barrier (covering the ground with plastic sheeting) and opening up the foundation vents.


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## NoSnob (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm not sure anyone actually addressed the issue of what the maximum temp is for wine storage. From what I read in the literature, research has shown that any temp above 82F results in substantialy degraded quality of wine. Since most heated/cooled homes are maintained at 68-78F, inside temps are acceptable though far from ideal. As noted, there are other variables including vibration and direct UV light which worsen the situation. 

With several hundred bottles on hand and wanting it to age at closer to ideal temp, I bought a LeCache refrigerated wine cabinet. I keep it at 58F & it maintains RH of about 78. My big problem is that I drink the wine before it has a chance to show me how long it will keep!

If others have additional information on this I would like to hear it.

NS


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## btom2004 (Jan 24, 2013)

Agree Thig is correct. May also just have to place a vent fan below at well as the ground plastic shetting.

I was thinking after reading DangerDaves post. Sammy said it's a small closet. Instead of attempting to put an airconditioner in there, as they do drip water while in use and will damage the floors if not checked. 

I've seen where other covert a refrigerator into a wine storage unit. I think he should get one of those mini friges, covert it with the coverter to the temp. he wants and then just take the door of while it's in the closed. This way he can keep the whole closet at a certain temp. I win the prize for best idea of the day.


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## Sammyk (Jan 24, 2013)

It is not a small closet it is a large closet. We have 2 Sam's Club wine racks in there and there is room for maybe 10 more. More of a concern is the weight.
We have around 300 bottles on the 2 wine racks plus a bunch of 1-gallon carboys aging in the closet.
Living in NC the humidity is very high in the summer.
The mold or mildew was only on the outside of the bottles. Wiped right off with a rag in light bleach water.
Ripping up the floor is not an option as we hope to sell and move to a smaller home in about a year.


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## Rocky (Jan 24, 2013)

Sammyk, that is a little different load problem. If you are using the Sam's Club wine racks and they are fully loaded (probably about 425 pounds), you have a load of about 100 or so pounds per square inch under the feet. A safer way to do it would be to get some 8' 2x6's, lay them on the floor and set the wine rack on them. That would distribute the weight more evenly.


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## Sammyk (Jan 24, 2013)

Rocky we did talk about putting a sheet of ply wood under the rack to distribute the weight better. I did calculate the weight pretty close to your figures.
I thought I had the problem of storage in the crawl space until there was mold or mildew. We invested in large lidded totes that held 8 1-gallon carboys. I was concerned about rats/mice chewing on the bungs/airlocks. 

Then when we checked the airlocks we saw the mold or mildew on the outside of the bottles. 

It meant crawling on hands and knees to get in and out so that was a real pain in the rear. Temperature was pretty constant at around 55 degrees in the summer.
So we moved them back inside. 

And we did not think about the heat until everything was upstairs and we had a couple of warm days last week.
Hindsight ......!


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## DaveL (Jan 24, 2013)

What about a regular refridgerator? Turn it as high as possible. wouldn't 40 degrees be better than 70?


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## terroirdejeroir (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't know if you have any budget available, but I bought a used chest freezer off craigslist for $50 and connected a Johnson Controls external thermostat. Mine keeps a maximum of 140 bottles at 57 degrees for about a $100 investment.


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## Sammyk (Jan 25, 2013)

We have over 300 bottles aging plus many 1-gallon carboys.


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## galen1 (Jan 25, 2013)

It sounds like you care about all your work in making the wine. So you should care about proper storage. If there is no good place in your home to store your wines then get some sort of refrigeration unit as terroirdejeroir suggested and be done with it here at your present house and then you don't have to deal with this problem when you move.


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## Julie (Jan 25, 2013)

Sammy, they do sell air conditioner units that do not need to be placed in a window, they are portable and need the water drained here and there. You can pick one up for around $300.


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## Sammyk (Jan 25, 2013)

Thank you Julie! I think we are going to look into an air conditioner that can work without a window. We do have an air conditioner for the guest room and may just air condition the whole room.

If we were going to stay in this home we would dig a wine cellar in a hill next to the garage.


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## Rocky (Jan 25, 2013)

_"If we were going to stay in this home we would dig a wine cellar in a hill next to the garage."_

Now, there is a great idea. If you get down below the frost line, which I would not imagine is very deep in NC, you will keep the temperatures in the 50's.


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## Sammyk (Jan 25, 2013)

Rocky we do not have a frost line here. Ground does not freeze as we do not get cold enough or long enough. That is why the crawl space worked good.

Problem is the mold/mildew and it is really hard to access without crawling on hands and knees and we are too old to do that.
Next home will have something more accessible if we decide to continue in wine making. Our plans are to travel though.


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## DaveL (Jan 26, 2013)

You most definetly have a frost line. VA is 16-18 inches. You won't be much less. Of course an 18 inch cellar wouldn't be much use so it shouuld not be a problem. I am assuming your still in NC as your bio says.


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## Sammyk (Jan 26, 2013)

DaveL I am sorry you are wrong, we do not have a frost line where we live. I have ponds and water gardens here and they do not even get ice on them!
We moved here in 2000 and have never seen a frost line. In fact, we weed our massive flower beds every winter.


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## TonyP (Jan 26, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> DaveL I am sorry you are wrong, we do not have a frost line where we live. I have ponds and water gardens here and they do not even get ice on them!
> We moved here in 2000 and have never seen a frost line. In fact, we weed our massive flower beds every winter.



It sounds wonderful. FYI, though, I looked at the weather right now and it says Newtown NC is 28F. The temp. in the past few days has been in the 20s. I lived in Charlseton, SC (200 miles south of Newtown) for several years and we had frost a few times a year.


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## Julie (Jan 26, 2013)

Actually, Sammyk you do have a frost line. Most places do, just because you have not seen anything freeze over does not mean you do not have a frost line. You probably should fine out what the frostline is in your area, if you have a big storm come thru and you end up with low temps for a period of time you can see things freeze up on you.


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## Sammyk (Jan 26, 2013)

We are in a cold snap here right now but going back up to the 60's in a two days. Yes we do get frost here but the ground does not freeze. NOTE: frost and freezing ground /frost line is completely different elements. 

It does not stay cold enough for the ground to freeze here. Two or three years ago we got 6 inches of snow (snow is rare for us) but it melted a day later because the ground was 55 degrees. And it was only because of the 6 inch volume it took 2 days to melt. An inch or two of snow (which is rare) will melt by 11am once the sun hits it.

In the mountains yes they probably have a frost line but I am not in the mountains. I have not tested the dirt in the mountains with the temperature probe so I cannot say one way or another if they have a frost line or not.

My business is plants (we owned a nursery/garden center for 13 years in MI and an aquatic business here for 13 years) and we have grown every kind of plant for the OVER 40 years. I started at 21 years old with my own greenhouse and a houseplant business.
In MI where we are from, frost line was 36 inches.
Do any of you have a probe to test the temperature of dirt/ the ground? Well, I do and the dirt stays 55 degrees in the winter.

TonyP yes you probably had a frost in Charleston but I can promise you your ground did not freeze nor did you have a frost line where the ground froze so that you could not dig in the dirt.

Heck they have frost in FL but that does not mean that their ground freezes. And a frost line is how deep down the ground freezes!


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## Sammyk (Jan 26, 2013)

Julie you are USDA zone 6 A and my guess is your frost line is around 12 to 18 inches. That is just a guess. How far am I off?
*TonyP* you don't list your location but I could probably give a good guess on your frost line if I knew it.


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## Sammyk (Jan 26, 2013)

*Here is our 5 day outlook, I rest my case. freezing rain yesterday but high of 50 today. Now how long with the .10 of an inch of ice last in 50 degrees?
*

*Today Jan 26 *





50°F
24°F
Partly Cloudy

Chance of rain:0% Wind: NNW at 4 mph Details


*Sun Jan 27 *




45°
30°
Partly Cloudy

Chance of rain:0% Wind: E at 5 mph Details


*Mon Jan 28 *




54°
40°
Cloudy

Chance of rain:10% Wind: S at 6 mph Details


*Tue Jan 29 *




68°
53°
Partly Cloudy

Chance of rain:10% Wind: SSW at 6 mph Details


*Wed Jan 30 *




64°
43°
T-Showers

Chance of rain:60% Wind: SSW at 11 mph


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## Julie (Jan 26, 2013)

Sammy the comments here were not intended to become a debate, more of a caution than anything else. No one is asking you to prove anything.

If I lived in NC and I was looking to store my wine underground I would assume there was a frostline simply because it does snow there and it does get below freezing, even if it is only occasionaly. Today's weather is always changing, we have more warm days in the winter here than we had when I was a child.

Again, just my opinion not a debate.


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## TonyP (Jan 26, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> Julie you are USDA zone 6 A and my guess is your frost line is around 12 to 18 inches. That is just a guess. How far am I off?
> *TonyP* you don't list your location but I could probably give a good guess on your frost line if I knew it.



I live off the Atlantic in Lewes, Delaware. I know my zone is 7B.


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## Sammyk (Jan 26, 2013)

Tony you too may get frost but I am betting your ground does not freeze either and you have not frost line.

In the 13 years we have lived here I can count on one hand the number of times we had snow in my area.


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## novalou (Jan 26, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> Tony you too may get frost but I am betting your ground does not freeze either and you have not frost line.
> 
> In the 13 years we have lived here I can count on one hand the number of times we had snow in my area.



I think you are all missing the point. Regardless of your location, you just need to be far enough in the ground where the temperature remains stable year round. So in Sammy's case, maintain 55F in the summertime. Probably need to go down 2-3 feet, I imagine.


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## DaveL (Jan 27, 2013)

http://www.catawbacountync.gov/depts/u&e/designcodes.pdf

Sorry, I like a good debate.Its a great way to learn. The world would be a boring place if we all saw things the same way. I look at this conversation through the prism of 20+ years in the foundation business. 
But this is strictly a theoretical debate since any celler you build is likely to be more that 10" deep anyway.


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## Sammyk (Jan 27, 2013)

Not sure what your point is DaveL. While we do live in Catawba county we are on a geological ridge in our own micro climate. This was told to me by the Department of Agriculture inspector when we asked why does it not rain here for the most part when it rains all around us. Two miles from us a friend will get a few inches of rain and we get nothing.

WE don't have cellars/basements here because of the cost of digging in red clay.

And if we were to build a wine cellar which we won't, it would be 6 to 8' deep, so the point is really moot.

In our next home maybe/maybe not on a wine cellar.

We don't have cellars/basements because of the cost of digging in red clay.


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## DaveL (Jan 27, 2013)

No real point other than I think we differ on the definition of Frost line. 
Other than that we are saying the same thing It's a moot point. 
I bet we could have a fun discussion about politics over a beer or better yet a glass of skeeter pee. lol


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