# And then there were 3



## Boatboy24

Mrs. Boatboy approved the purchase requisition and Santa will be putting Vadai #3 under the Christmas tree. I called Vadai direct this time and spoke to Ruthy. What a pleasant, sweet lady. 

I'll be breaking this one in with the WE LE Super Tuscan, followed by brief visits from the RJS LE Aglianico and Eclipse Forza. Then it'll go into the 'wine from grapes' production line. Didn't buy a stand for this one. I'm going to try and use my other stands as a template and take the DIY approach.


----------



## sour_grapes

Nice! Sounds awesome!



Boatboy24 said:


> What a pleasant, sweet lady.



Oh, so she is American Oak, then?


----------



## ibglowin

Congrats! 

Those stands have gotten crazy expensive. Its almost like they want to hold the line on raising prices on the barrels but try and make up lost $$$ on the stand.

IIRC I paid like $19.99 for my first stand. I would seriously look at one of the Harbor Freight small dollies and just remove the rolling wheels if need be and replace with something else that wouldn't roll.



Boatboy24 said:


> Didn't buy a stand for this one. I'm going to try and use my other stands as a template and take the DIY approach.


----------



## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Those stands have gotten crazy expensive.



$50 at MoreWine!!!!


----------



## bakervinyard

BoatBoy I envy you. Last Christmas I asked Santa for a barrel, Mrs Santa went to the LHBS and they sold her a stainless sleive to put a oak spiral in. not even close if you ask me. I asked for a barrel again. If it's not under the tree this year I'll buy it myself. Bakervinyard


----------



## ColemanM

Congrats Jim. Three is a good number to have. I hope you have better luck with your third than I did mine. Still leaks a little.


----------



## Boatboy24

ColemanM said:


> Congrats Jim. Three is a good number to have. I hope you have better luck with your third than I did mine. Still leaks a little.




I'm hoping that's user error. 

My first two were as water tight as a frog's arse.


----------



## ibglowin

Time for a little dab/rub of canning wax in the area of concern. That will stop it dead.



ColemanM said:


> Congrats Jim. Three is a good number to have. I hope you have better luck with your third than I did mine. Still leaks a little.


----------



## Boatboy24

Wow, that was fast. Ordered Friday and Sandor Claus just delivered.


----------



## JohnT

Congratulations, it's a cask!!!!!!

Nice!


----------



## Boatboy24

Breaking it in this morning and not a drop of leakage so far. I'm just about done and will fill it with sulfited water for a couple days just to be sure. I have 3 kits available (or soon to be). The Aglianico is in my #1 barrel which is now neutral. Also have the WE LE Super Tuscan ready in a carboy and the Forza clearing. I'll put the ST in first, then swap places with the Aglianico from #1, followed by the Forza. At that point, I should be close to 12 weeks aging and will move to wines from grapes with the 2015 vintage. #1 remains my kit barrel.


----------



## Boatboy24

2 days and not a drop of visible water on the outside. I'll fill it up with wine on Friday or Saturday.  Not surprising, as I could barely even find the seams between the staves on this one. 

Not that I've needed it, but this time around, a little bit of beeswax was included with the barrel.


----------



## ibglowin

They all do that with water (SG=1.000) Its when you put wine in (SG= 0.994) and thinner that the leaks show up.... LOL 

Nice to see the bees wax being tossed in. Its a cheap insurance policy for them and having numerous barrels returned.


----------



## Boatboy24

My new 'barrel stand' arrived yesterday. I made a slight modification with some scrap 2x4 and she's ready to go!


----------



## Johnd

I asked Santa (Mrs.) for barrels too, I got a 10 gal American and a 13 gal French. Mrs. Claus said she couldn't find any 6 gallon ones (even though I mentioned The manufacturer name. Not to worry, I'll be making some double kits and doing some blending. Lot to learn about barrel care, but I'm up for it. 

Congrats on your new baby!!!!!


----------



## ColemanM

Wow, Mrs. Clause never sets foot in my basement but to tell me to clean it up. Wish she would bring barrels down here for me [emoji24]


----------



## Johnd

Jim:

First I apologize if I'm hijacking your thread, just seemed like an appropriate place to ask your advice.

Any thoughts would be appreciated before I make this move, this is what I'm contemplating. I've got the two new barrels, 10 and 13 gallon, American and French oak respectively.

Being predominantly a kit maker, and therefore operating in the 23 L / 6 Gal. mindset, I'm thinking of sending the 10 and 13 gal barrels back in exchange for some 5 or 6 gallon barrels. Thoughts being that with 5 gallon barrels, I have a gallon to top up the barrels with, or 6 gallons, I can top up with similar wines I've made or some store bought stuff. They just seem to be more right sized than the 10 or 13.

I'd value your opinion / experience here before exchanging barrels.


----------



## Boatboy24

@Johnd:

I had a similar predicament earlier this year. I started out making kits and still do 4-5 red kits per year. I have 1 barrel dedicated to that and each kit spends about 3 months in there. My 2nd barrel is all wine from grapes (as the third one will also be after a few kits are run through). A couple months ago, I thought about getting a 30L instead of another 23, thinking that I'm moving into larger/more batches of grape wines. But I'm also wanting to do more blending. I decided that I'd stick with mostly 6+ gallon batches of wines from grapes. That allows me to age 2 at a time. Regarding kit winemaking and a 6 gallon barrel. I have no regrets. Yes, you have to top up with something, but that hasn't been an issue for me. It gives me a reason to buy wines.  I also have a decent inventory of varying types of wine from what I've made. So finding a good topper is never an issue. I'd recommend going with 23 liter barrels. I have no personal experience, but from what I've read, the smaller the barrel, the harder it is to seal up. And let's face it: bigger is better. 

And if you're using Italian carboys, they are usually more than 23 liters. I've found that if my carboy is topped properly, there isn't room in the barrel for all it's contents and I have a bottle or sometimes two left for topping the barrel. When I take a wine out of the barrel, it goes into my Better Bottle, which is 23 liters. So usually no need to top that. Wines are usually only in there for a month, then they are bottled.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> @Johnd:
> 
> I'd recommend going with 23 liter barrels. I have no personal experience, but from what I've read, the smaller the barrel, the harder it is to seal up. And let's face it: bigger is better.
> 
> And if you're using Italian carboys, they are usually more than 23 liters. I've found that if my carboy is topped properly, there isn't room in the barrel for all it's contents and I have a bottle or sometimes two left for topping the barrel. When I take a wine out of the barrel, it goes into my Better Bottle, which is 23 liters. So usually no need to top that. Wines are usually only in there for a month, then they are bottled.



Thanks for the input, I'm gonna make the switch out. I'll probably end up with three 23L barrels for the price of the other two larger ones.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> @Johnd:
> 
> When I take a wine out of the barrel, it goes into my Better Bottle, which is 23 liters. So usually no need to top that. Wines are usually only in there for a month, then they are bottled.



Done Deal!!!!!!!! 10 and 13 on their way back to the supplier, three 23 liter Hungarian Med Toast Vadais and stands on their way to me, and a little money back to Mrs. Claus.

A few questions, Jim, if you don't mind. 
One average, how much do you end up topping up your barrels on a monthly basis? 
I've ordered both, but are you using the wooden bungs or the silicone bungs?
Leaving a wine in the barrel for 30 days, how long is it before the 23 l barrels become neutral?
Have you ever left your wines in a neutral barrel to bulk age for extended periods of time, like 6 months or a year?


----------



## ibglowin

I will let Jim chime in as well. I have 4 (neutral) 23L Vadai's.

You need to top up at most every two weeks. Any longer and you will have too much headspace and risk oxidizing your wine. At two weeks you will add 4-6 oz depending on your storage conditions (temp, RH)

Never use the wooden bungs, they are a PITA and stick and don't seal very well. Only use a silicon bung.

A barrel will impart oak for ~ 2years of constant use. After that its neutral so you just start adding oak spirals or cubes or staves for the oak flavor. What is more important than oak flavor from the barrel is the micro-oxidation and concentration through evaporation (angels share) These are the things that will take your wines to the next level and what no amount of storage in a sealed glass container will ever achieve.

Small barrels like these are good for about 6-7 months max more than that is just too much oxidation due to the higher wood to wine ratio over larger sized barrels.


----------



## Boatboy24

Johnd said:


> A few questions, Jim, if you don't mind.
> One average, how much do you end up topping up your barrels on a monthly basis?
> I've ordered both, but are you using the wooden bungs or the silicone bungs?
> Leaving a wine in the barrel for 30 days, how long is it before the 23 l barrels become neutral?
> Have you ever left your wines in a neutral barrel to bulk age for extended periods of time, like 6 months or a year?



I'm anywhere from 1-2 glasses (ie: 1/4-1/2 bottle) every 2-3 weeks. 

Up until this most recent barrel, I've been using #8 stoppers with s-type airlocks. I just like being able to look at the airlock and know I have a good seal. I did buy a silicone bung to go with this new barrel though and will see how I like it. I've never used the wooden bungs - I've heard they can be near impossible to get out after a while.

2 years of use and you're pretty much neutral. 

Yes, I go longer in the neutral barrels. My kits always go for about 3 months, but wine from grapes will go 3-6.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Small barrels like these are good for about 6-7 months max more than that is just too much oxidation due to the higher wood to wine ratio over larger sized barrels.



Mike, Jim, thank you both for your responses, advice duly noted.

Mike, the quote above, if I'm understanding it correctly, is that you don't leave any one wine in a 23 L barrel longer than 6 - 7 months. Micro - oxygenation is too great in comparison to the volume of wine in the smaller barrel, and can cause the wine to oxidize. Is that correct? 

I assume the same applies to the amount of oak flavor that is imparted in the wine due to the interior barrel surface area to wine volume ratio.


----------



## ibglowin

Yes, for a new barrel you need to have quite a few wines lined up to place in them. A good break in schedule (for oak) is 4-8-12-16-24 (weeks) So if you getting 3 new barrels you better have a bunch of wine to fill them up and keep them all full all the time.

Your SO2 levels will also drop like a rock in these small barrels. They will go to 0ppm free SO2 in as little as 12 weeks leaving your wine completely unprotected. You need a very accurate way of determining SO2 levels. SOmething like a Vinemetrica or an A/O Rig.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Yes, for a new barrel you need to have quite a few wines lined up to place in them. A good break in schedule (for oak) is 4-8-12-16-24 (weeks) So if you getting 3 new barrels you better have a bunch of wine to fill them up and keep them all full all the time.
> 
> Your SO2 levels will also drop like a rock in these small barrels. They will go to 0ppm free SO2 in as little as 12 weeks leaving your wine completely unprotected. You need a very accurate way of determining SO2 levels. SOmething like a Vinemetrica or an A/O Rig.



Understood. I've got 10 wines in carboys, 2 fermenting, and an itchy order finger, so I'll be ok for a while. I'll probably put 2 in operation immediately and hold off on the third for a bit. 
I'll keep a close eye on the free SO2, I use the Vinmetrica SC300.


----------



## ibglowin

Another side note (aka tricks of the trade) is that the oak levels seem to fall back after 3-6 months or so. So you should be able to take a wine that was only in for a month or two and rotate it back in for another month or two after the barrel has been broken in a bit.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Another side note (aka tricks of the trade) is that the oak levels seem to fall back after 3-6 months or so. So you should be able to take a wine that was only in for a month or two and rotate it back in for another month or two after the barrel has been broken in a bit.



I'll keep that option in the mix. The three barrels showed up yesterday, still shrink wrapped as I won't have time to start breakin until this Sunday. 

Do you follow the Vadai breakin instructions or a variation that you've developed by experience?

I saw beeswax mentioned above as well, I'm assuming I would use that to fill cracks if I have some problematic leakage that won't subside??


----------



## ibglowin

The Vadai sealing instructions are very good and will seal most barrels if followed. That said out of my 4 barrels 2 of them simply would not seal completely without the application of some wax on the bad spots.


----------



## Boatboy24

Johnd said:


> I'll keep that option in the mix. The three barrels showed up yesterday, still shrink wrapped as I won't have time to start breakin until this Sunday.
> 
> Do you follow the Vadai breakin instructions or a variation that you've developed by experience?
> 
> I saw beeswax mentioned above as well, I'm assuming I would use that to fill cracks if I have some problematic leakage that won't subside??



I follow the instructions pretty closely. Crazy hot water on each head for 20-30 minutes (inside and out). I usually heat it up in the tea kettle to near boiling. Then a gallon or two of the hottest water I can get into the tap inside. Again, 20-30 minutes. I repeat 2-3 times so I've covered each segment of the inside. The whole process takes a few hours, but its worth it. Then I fill it with water and 1/4 tsp of sulfite and let it sit for 24-48 hours, inspecting for leaks a few times a day.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Then I fill it with water and 1/4 tsp of sulfite and let it sit for 24-48 hours, inspecting for leaks a few times a day.



Let's talk water. Vadai instructions say to fill with "tap" water after the various boiling water treatments. Thus far in my barrel prep (it's got 2 gallons of boiling water in it now), I've been using distilled water. My thoughts are that I don't want to put any chlorine or other tap water additives that might be in the water into my barrel. I bought enough water to do the whole process in distilled. Am I going over the top, or on the right track?


----------



## Boatboy24

I've always used tap, and I know ours has chlorine in it. Never had an issue. Having said that, if you've already bought the distilled, there's certainly no harm in using it. In between batches, I rinse with the hottest water I can get from the tap as well.


----------



## Johnd

Wow!! My first wine just came out of the Vadai after 33 days, what a different wine. It really does take it to another level. 

Appreciate input from you and Mike, cut the learning curve way down. I can't believe how much wine the barrel / angels gobbled up in that time, well over a 750 ml bottle. I guess that'll fall back with subsequent batches now that the barrel is quenched.


----------



## thruhike00

Curious as to aging in carboy before or after the barrel and how long. So if you have a red that has been carboy aging for 6mos, then barrel age for 60-90 days, is it back the carboy or straight to the bottle after? Going to take the pluge on a couple of 6gal barrels. I enjoy the variety of the numerous kits available and trying to find some fresh juice for the other. Is there any reason other than MLf to not use the same barrel for kits and fresh juice? Looking at Vadai website, $178 per barrel plus shipping. Any temperature considerations for storing wine as I do not have a cellar. Thanks!


----------



## Johnd

thruhike00 said:


> Curious as to aging in carboy before or after the barrel and how long. So if you have a red that has been carboy aging for 6mos, then barrel age for 60-90 days, is it back the carboy or straight to the bottle after? Going to take the pluge on a couple of 6gal barrels. I enjoy the variety of the numerous kits available and trying to find some fresh juice for the other. Is there any reason other than MLf to not use the same barrel for kits and fresh juice? Looking at Vadai website, $178 per barrel plus shipping. Any temperature considerations for storing wine as I do not have a cellar. Thanks!



My wines have been carboy aging for 6+ months, as I wanted them clear for barreling so I don't have to deal with sediment in my barrels. That's not a rule, just my preference. First wine into barrel 1 went 33 days, the oak flavor got where I wanted it in that time, subsequent wines in that barrel will take longer. The oak falls off as the barrel gets used and I understand it will be neutral after 2 years. 

First wine in came out today and is in a carboy where it will stay until I bottle it in August. It could be bottled, but then I'll drink it too soon. 

I know of no reason, other than MLF, not to interchangeably age kits and fresh juice wines in the same barrel(s). 

When I have neutral barrels, I'll still use them for the other benefits of barrel aging, micro-oxygenation and concentration of the wine. 

I have three Vadais and numerous carboys, all aging in my home at room temperature. I live in the south, have no basement, and haven't done a cellar yet. It's not the ideal temps, but I haven't had any issues. Once wines are bottled, they go into refrigerated storage at 55 degrees. Hope that helps.


----------



## ibglowin

Once the barrel is neutral in 2 years just throw in 3 oz of cubes or beans or a spiral or a stave for the oak flavor and let the barrel work it's magic still with the micro ox and concentration through evaporation. As long as you keep it clean and the wines at a decent level of SO2 they can last almost indefinitely.


----------



## Boatboy24

thruhike00 said:


> Curious as to aging in carboy before or after the barrel and how long. So if you have a red that has been carboy aging for 6mos, then barrel age for 60-90 days, is it back the carboy or straight to the bottle after? Going to take the pluge on a couple of 6gal barrels. I enjoy the variety of the numerous kits available and trying to find some fresh juice for the other. Is there any reason other than MLf to not use the same barrel for kits and fresh juice? Looking at Vadai website, $178 per barrel plus shipping. Any temperature considerations for storing wine as I do not have a cellar. Thanks!



I usually leave mine in a carboy for a month or two after barrel time. This just allows me to let it 'settle' and make any final adjustments (two of my 3 are neutral). Kits usually get finishing tannin during this time and if necessary, I'll throw some more oak on.


----------



## thruhike00

Boatboy24 said:


> @Johnd:
> 
> I had a similar predicament earlier this year. I started out making kits and still do 4-5 red kits per year. I have 1 barrel dedicated to that and each kit spends about 3 months in there. My 2nd barrel is all wine from grapes (as the third one will also be after a few kits are run through). A couple months ago, I thought about getting a 30L instead of another 23, thinking that I'm moving into larger/more batches of grape wines. But I'm also wanting to do more blending. I decided that I'd stick with mostly 6+ gallon batches of wines from grapes. That allows me to age 2 at a time. Regarding kit winemaking and a 6 gallon barrel. I have no regrets. Yes, you have to top up with something, but that hasn't been an issue for me. It gives me a reason to buy wines.  I also have a decent inventory of varying types of wine from what I've made. So finding a good topper is never an issue. I'd recommend going with 23 liter barrels. I have no personal experience, but from what I've read, the smaller the barrel, the harder it is to seal up. And let's face it: bigger is better.
> 
> And if you're using Italian carboys, they are usually more than 23 liters. I've found that if my carboy is topped properly, there isn't room in the barrel for all it's contents and I have a bottle or sometimes two left for topping the barrel. When I take a wine out of the barrel, it goes into my Better Bottle, which is 23 liters. So usually no need to top that. Wines are usually only in there for a month, then they are bottled.



I am making double batches of wines now from kits. Have 2 of the following in carboys: fontana merlot (I know its cheap but not a bad table wine) fontana cab, WE CA trinity red, RJS super tuscan, and have just ordered double kits of the WE old lodi zin and CC Rosso Fortissimo.

Looking at barrels, I was going to order 2-3 23L, but leaning more towards one 40L for the double kits and maybe a 23L. Having a 40l would allow me to oak age two kits at a time. And could use it when I able to find fresh juice and keep the 23l barrel for future kits.

Any holes in this plan before I pull the trigger?


----------



## Boatboy24

thruhike00 said:


> Any holes in this plan before I pull the trigger?



Nope - as long as you're comfortable with having to keep a 40L full.


----------



## thruhike00

Jim,

Stalked you a little bit on FB on your Broad Run Cellars page. My older sister lives about 15 miles from you. Mind if I stop by and see the operation next time I'm up from NC visiting? Trying to get some real world advice before I start fresh juice or grapes, and seeing if I want to go down this rabbit's hole.


----------



## Boatboy24

thruhike00 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Stalked you a little bit on FB on your Broad Run Cellars page. My older sister lives about 15 miles from you. Mind if I stop by and see the operation next time I'm up from NC visiting? Trying to get some real world advice before I start fresh juice or grapes, and seeing if I want to go down this rabbit's hole.



Sure! Where's your sister live?


----------



## thruhike00

Sis just outside of Lorton and niece is in Alexandria. I have an eight year old and we make several "educational"trips a year to Smithsonian, natural history museum, art museums, monuments, etc. Crazy thing is her school doesn't allow free passes for these trips and counts as unexcused absences, and really gives me a hard time for taking these trips. Times have changed since I was in elementary school. They gave one of her classmates unexcused absence for behind the scenes tour and the very last shuttle launch that her uncle was on. Evidently, an education is only something you can get in the classroom these days.


----------

