# MLF for a Pinot Noir?



## FTC Wines (Oct 18, 2016)

Going to start my MLF's for our Cabs tonight or tomorrow. Over thinking, but haven't heard any one doing it to a Pinot Noir. Fresh grapes & juice bucket. Only 2nd MLF. Thanks. Roy


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 18, 2016)

Oh yeah, I'd do MLF if it were mine.


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 18, 2016)

FTC Wines said:


> Going to start my MLF's for our Cabs tonight or tomorrow. Over thinking, but haven't heard any one doing it to a Pinot Noir. Fresh grapes & juice bucket. Only 2nd MLF. Thanks. Roy



I used CH35 successfully on a PN Chilean juice bucket and grapes this Spring. So far I like it but it is still very young, and I don't know Pinot Noirs very well so I couldn't tell you if it will be considered a positive thing down the road. It did soften up the mouth feel and acidic bite a bit, thought the bite on my PN wasn't harsh and in your face like it can be with a Cab Sauv.


----------



## FTC Wines (Oct 18, 2016)

Ok, Thanks guys. Only my second P N, and first from grapes. Future daughter in laws favorite wine, so I 'd like it to be the best I can make it. Will start it tonight. Roy


----------



## AmityFlatts (Oct 18, 2016)

I am starting my MLF tonight on my Pinot Noir. I pressed it last night as the Primary was done. Since I got a packet of bacteria that does 66 gallons I am going to also MLF my Pinot Gris. I stopped at the local wine shop yesterday and they sold me Viniflora Oenos, they told me it was the one I wanted???? I would have added it to the wine last night but I didn't get any nutrient for it and was concerned about starting it without using any. I will stop and get some nutrient today and add to the wine tonight. My Pinot Noir was looking good this morning. I will rack in a day or two and get into carboy sizes that fill me to the neck.


----------



## FTC Wines (Oct 18, 2016)

Amity, you have a lot more Lee's than I did. Racked of the gross Lee's after lunch, doing PH # now then adding the MLF enz. Picked up 3 bottles of Pinot Noir, for topping off, as I have non in winery. Roy


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 18, 2016)

Amity, you want to hold up and let those settle a bit, then rack off the gooey stuff since once you add that MLB you'll want to leave it alone, other than some light stirring, for quite a while and you don't want that many lees in there. They call them gross lees because there are lots of them, and you definitely have some gross lees in those carboys. Try to get it down to a dusting if you can (you might have to wait a few days, but that is fine and worth the wait).


----------



## Turock (Oct 18, 2016)

We always MLF Pinot Noir---otherwise it's quite harsh.


----------



## AmityFlatts (Oct 18, 2016)

Not trying to hijack your thread FTC 

The pic below looks like a lot of gross lees also, but it was about 30 minutes after pressing and putting in carboys. You can tell which bottle I filled first. The pic above was this morning at about 11 hours. When I get home tonight I hope the lees look like a smaller quantity.






Wine shop set me up with some nutrient for my bacteria today. Sounds like I should let it settle another day or two, then rack, then add the bacteria to get the MLF going


----------



## FTC Wines (Oct 18, 2016)

No worries on hijacking my thread, all knowledge is good. I racked 6 carboys & pitched my MLF tonight. My ph's was low on 4 out of 6 carboys, 3.22 lowest 3.48 highest. The juice buckets were the lowest, fresh grapes closer to the 3.5 Hope the MLF works. Roy


----------



## AmityFlatts (Oct 20, 2016)

So I racked off my lees tonight, ended up with 13 gallons, two five gallon carboys full, and one with about 3 gallons in it. I see above FTC said he was going to top off with some store bottles of wine. 

How does one get rid of the air space? Shall I get 3 one gallons bottles and fill them, blow a balloon up in the 5 gallon carboy, I dont really want to dump somebody else's 2 gallons of wine into my 3 gallons of wine? 

There must be a good way to resolve the carboy sizing issue I havent thought of.


----------



## FTC Wines (Oct 20, 2016)

Amity, I was very pleased that I only needed one bottle of store P N to top off my 2 carboys. Needed 4 bottles of my wine to top off 4 Cab carboys, Roy


----------



## Johnd (Oct 20, 2016)

AmityFlatts said:


> So I racked off my lees tonight, ended up with 13 gallons, two five gallon carboys full, and one with about 3 gallons in it. I see above FTC said he was going to top off with some store bottles of wine.
> 
> How does one get rid of the air space? Shall I get 3 one gallons bottles and fill them, blow a balloon up in the 5 gallon carboy, I dont really want to dump somebody else's 2 gallons of wine into my 3 gallons of wine?
> 
> There must be a good way to resolve the carboy sizing issue I havent thought of.



A good option for 13 gallons is two 6's and a 1 gallon. Having a variety of sizes is the easiest way to resolve this issue. In addition to demijohns and 6 gallon carboys (which comprise most of my glass storage vessels), I keep on hand an assortment of smaller options, including 5,s, 3's, 1's, and 1/2's. It offers combinations to accommodate those off quantities of wine without excessive waste or topping up. My two cents.


----------



## FTC Wines (Oct 20, 2016)

Amity, Over thinking about all your Lee's. I pressed my P N in my wine press, but poured the must into a fruit bag that was inside the oak basket. That way after that batch is pressed I empty the fruit bags contents & press the next 40 ish lbs. I think that leaves almost all the gross Lee's behind. Still getting 7.5-8 gals from 3 lugs of grapes. Just a thought. Roy


----------



## AmityFlatts (Oct 20, 2016)

FTC I appreciate the thoughts, I have lots to learn, I really have no idea what I am doing. I have made a few batches of wine, I did the dragonsblood and skeeter pee from this forum a few years ago. I got lots of grapes and read a little on Pinots and went after it. The 4 carboys of pinot gris I have going is milkier than I thought it would be, it hasn't cleared much at all.

I didn't pull out my press to press the must. I transferred from the fermentation barrel with a 5 gallon bucket thru a kitchen strainer. The free run thru the strainer once captured went straight into the carboys. The skins and seeds the strainer caught I just pressed with my hand into the strainer. I know I didn't get all the juice out but wasn't to concerned with getting it all as I had more juice than I figured I needed. I read somewhere crushing seeds and skins to extreme kicked out bad flavors, so I wasn't chasing every last drop. I pressed pretty hard with my hands, but nothing like the press would have done. Tossed the skins into the garden to compost down over the winter. 

The gross lees didn't really reduce between 11 hours and 2 days of settlement time. I thought it would consolidate more but it didn't.

Last night racking off the gross lees, I tried to not suck any of the lees, and quit at the elevation as shown below. Figure I lost a little wine, but wasn't interested in getting the junk with the racking. Maybe I got to close??? Curious how close others rack to the junk in the bottom of the bottle??


----------



## FTC Wines (Oct 20, 2016)

Amity, I understand better now. As to your last pics, I would have racked right down to the "gook" i.e. Gross Lee's. At this early stage I'm not too concerned about getting a little stuff transferred. Closer to bottling I'm way more fussie. Others may do it differently. My P N is in MLF now. Roy


----------



## Rob_S (Oct 26, 2016)

Just finished doing a wine from my own Pinot Noir grapes and it was also my first vintage and fermentation of this variety. Used CSM yeast and Alpha as the malo. Did a co-inoculation. After wine finished, pressed the wine, racked off the gross lees, did a chromatography and found it did not complete the malo where some of the malic acid was still present and confirmed there was some lactic acid so the malo was partial. The malo resumed after adding a bit of Opti-Malo and it then continued pretty vigorously. Malo finished about a week and a half later. TA ended up about 5.3 and pH about 3.5 ish. 

Rob


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 8, 2016)

I'm pretty new on this forum, but I just wanted to point out how helpful reading different threads has been, this one included. 
The "deciding to use dif sized vessels/topping off by adding similar style" discussion, and "how close to get to the lees"
convo have been very informative. I appreciate this forum so much. And I started feeling guilty benefitting from threads without letting them aware. 
AJ


----------



## AKsarben (Dec 10, 2016)

ML is Malolactic Bacteria. It converts any Malic to a lesser harsh Lactic acid. 
First off, I am an Associate Winemaker at Fenn Valley Vineyards, near Fennville, MI. I have been working in that capacity since 1999. I inoculate all the wines with yeast and in the case of most red wines and a few whites (like Chardonnay) with ML MBR31 we get from Scott Laboratories. I put this in there so you know my background and not my bragging.

Pinot Noir we ferment is not very acidic. T/A is somewhere in .500 to .400 range when we crush and pH is too high as a rule. A little Tartaric acid at the beginning, to up the acid to around .700 is good and it lowers the pH from the 3.80 range to something more likeable, like pH of 3.35 +/- . 

If your Pinot noir wine is anemic in acid before and high in pH adding ML will make it even more so. Just be aware of that. You will probably have to come back in and add Tartaric acid (Not malic) later on to raise the acid and lower the pH before you cold stabilize.

The advantage of adding Tartaric acid early on to fresh crushed grapes is it seems to really stabilize the color in the pigments. Too high pH early on and we get a washed out red - brown color, and it does not come back later after pressing.

Good color with early additions of Tartaric acid, but don't go overboard IF you plan on doing a ML fermentation. ML does not like low pH unless you buy some expensive bacteria that was developed to work well with lower pH wines.
Always add ML after the wine has gone below 1 brix, and not above. ML can sometimes interact with the sugars giving odd flavors. (addendum) There is some advocates on co-innoculaton of yeast and ML bacteria, but this is usually on purchased, well groomed, ML that get along together. Problems with co-innoculation is that yeast have a tendency to use up the nutrients that ML would like to have to grow. Plus, some really don't prescribe to this idea as things can go "south" on this approach easier than to just wait.

Don't add ML if you added Citric acid as that can create some funky smells and nose as ML and citric acid have a tendency to produce some rather "buttery" flavor components (Diacetyl) see here: http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/318/ML%20Brochure.pdf

"Some" gross lees are preferrable during ML when you are looking for spontaneous ML. It is easier to get the "spontaneous" from real fruit, and not canned product. ML is killed at temps above 100 F by the way, and something that canned, or concentrates, usually have gone above in temps.

Hope this helps.


----------



## AmityFlatts (Dec 13, 2016)

So I have been stirring my pinots a couple times a week for a month and a half, as I go thru the MLF process. Tonight I see a couple of my 1 gallon jugs have floaties,  The big carboys dont have this issue. So is this ready for dumping, am I contaminated, or what do you think is going on here?


----------



## stickman (Dec 14, 2016)

Are you using chromatography to track ML progress? From the picture it looks like you have a little too much headspace, the floating plates look like vinegar bacteria or some type of surface yeast, in either case it's not good. Top up and overflow to remove the floating material. Test for ML completion and add sulfite if ML is complete.


----------



## AmityFlatts (Dec 14, 2016)

I have not been using Chromatography paper to track,


----------



## AKsarben (Dec 14, 2016)

You don't need to stir the wine, especially a couple times a week. It should be through the ML in about 3-4weeks. You may have introduce too much air and you may not have a very good Pinot noir now....


----------



## JohnT (Dec 15, 2016)

Welcome AK!!! 

I am not familiar with MBR31. Do you know how this might compare with CH16? 

I have used Vinaflora Eonos in the past, but this strain is rather picky about the level of PH and also level of SO2 that it can survive in. 

Recently, I switched to CH16 which has a much higher Acid and SO2 tolerance. I am very happy with the results of this strain, but would gladly trade up for something even better. 

Amity, 

Like AK said, there is no real reason for stirring the wine so often. 

In fact, I do not stir at all. I normally do my MLF in series. I wait until yeast fermentation is complete, give the wine a racking, then innoculate with MLB. I do not open the wine up again except to taste every so often. 

Although not a accurate, I find that the tongue is a cheaper and easier way to tell if MLF is complete. 

For MLB to survive, I need to maintain a lower level of SO2 (well below 30ppm) and higher PH (normally higher than 3.5). The process of MLF also will further raise the PH. In other words, wine is at its most vulnerable state (to outside nasties) during MLF. With this in mind, I try to keep opening up the wine to a minimum.

After I am happy with the MLF, I rack again, then add a final acid adjustment (tartaric) according to taste. I then raise the SO2 to the appropriate level for the current PH. This, then carries the wine through 18 months of bulk ageing.


----------



## AKsarben (Dec 15, 2016)

Thanks for the welcome JohnT !!
Chr. Hansen ML, CH16 is well respected by many top wineries and winemakers. If I recall, it was very good ml and able to work at higher EtOH levels. At the winery we use MBR 31 for some time. Mainly because it works well for us and tolerates lower pH as well as easy to add. Either direct inoculate or mix with cool water. PLUS it comes from Scott Labs, and we take advantage of ordering it in July, with our other order for free shipping. We generally order around $12,000 or so then and keep it in the freezer until used. Vinflora CH16 is sold by Gusmer Enterpries for those that are curious. (addendum) MBR31 works very well at lower pH wines.  Total SO2 is more critical than free. For example we add 30ppm to the grapes at the crush. Bear in mind that during yeast fermentation most of that is all boiled off. There is little free SO2 at the end. Also note that wines above 85 degree F can stunt ML and 95 degrees can actually kill it. We wait until wines fall below 80 degrees before we add the ML strain.

Taste is good, and so is recording the pH just after fermentation and then later when you believe it is done with ML Fermentation. I use Chromatography papers in the lab to see the change from Malic to Lactic on the sheets. Smelly, time consuming (takes 3 days) but does give very good visual on complete ML with no questions.

Add tartaric acid before doing some cold stabilization and then when done it makes for wine at the level of acid you shoot for.


----------

