# 2018 Cab Blends



## stickman (Dec 9, 2018)

Picked up a 1,000 lbs of 2018 frozen must yesterday, currently in the process of thawing and warming up, thought I'd take a peek. I'm going with two slightly different cofermentation blends, both will be 60%Cab, 20% Merlot, and 20% Malbec, the only difference between the two is that the Cabernet for blend 1 will be from Sonoma - Moon Mountain AVA (27.8 brix), and the Cab for blend 2 will be from Washington - Red Mountain AVA (28 brix). The Merlot is from Sonoma - Pigasus Vineyard, and the Malbec is from Washington - White Salmon Vineyard. The blends are admittedly a bit Frankenstein being from California and Washington, but we'll see how it goes, hoping for the best.

I didn't conduct any measurements yet, but based on the provided numbers, I estimate each batch will get around 1.2 gallons of acidulated water to drop the blended brix from 25.4 to 24.5. I could leave the water out, but I'm not sure I'd like the ABV that high; it's a crap shoot.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 9, 2018)




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## CDrew (Dec 9, 2018)

That is a lot of frozen must! Who sells like that?

Good luck, will follow this thread. 

Will you need to ferment indoors given its winter most places?


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## stickman (Dec 9, 2018)

@CDrew The must is from Brehm, a few of us together buy around 50 pails. The photos were taken in my garage which is heated, so we're in good shape fermenting there. A similar thread from 2017 is https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/2017-cab-blends.62595/


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## NorCal (Dec 9, 2018)

I would co-ferment with the lower brix grapes, before I would water it back. Assuming you are shooting for a big CA Cab. Sounds like a great end of season project!


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## stickman (Dec 9, 2018)

@NorCal I agree, I am co-fermenting with the lower brix grapes, but the must blend is still a bit high at 25.4 brix. When you start getting up into the 15% range it gets a little tricky, I have had some good high ABV wines, but I've also had many I didn't care for. These blends are only 60% Cab, so they may not handle the alcohol as well, I'm looking (or hoping) for more balance.


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## CDrew (Dec 9, 2018)

stickman said:


> @CDrew The must is from Brehm, a few of us together buy around 50 pails. The photos were taken in my garage which is heated, so we're in good shape fermenting there. A similar thread from 2017 is https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/2017-cab-blends.62595/



I read last year's thread, and interesting you think freezing the fruit obviates the need for enzymes. A reasonable thought since it likely ruptures cell walls of the grapes.

Is there a reason you don't do fresh grapes? It seems that would save you at least half the $. The frozen must does look like the equivalent of fresh grapes though.

Anyway, looks like fun.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 10, 2018)

Got to tell you I'm more then a little jealous.


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## NorCal (Dec 10, 2018)

It’s definitely a matter of preference. I don’t consider 25.4 brix to be on the high end range of brix, rather close to the minimum I would look for. Maybe I’ve been bitten by the big cab bug. The grapes look great and it should make some excellent wine.


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## heatherd (Dec 10, 2018)

stickman said:


> Picked up a 1,000 lbs of 2018 frozen must yesterday, currently in the process of thawing and warming up, thought I'd take a peek. I'm going with two slightly different cofermentation blends, both will be 60%Cab, 20% Merlot, and 20% Malbec, the only difference between the two is that the Cabernet for blend 1 will be from Sonoma - Moon Mountain AVA (27.8 brix), and the Cab for blend 2 will be from Washington - Red Mountain AVA (28 brix). The Merlot is from Sonoma - Pigasus Vineyard, and the Malbec is from Washington - White Salmon Vineyard. The blends are admittedly a bit Frankenstein being from California and Washington, but we'll see how it goes, hoping for the best.
> 
> I didn't conduct any measurements yet, but based on the provided numbers, I estimate each batch will get around 1.2 gallons of acidulated water to drop the blended brix from 25.4 to 24.5. I could leave the water out, but I'm not sure I'd like the ABV that high; it's a crap shoot.
> 
> ...


Your grapes look lovely!!


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## stickman (Dec 13, 2018)

Finally getting a chance to update; everything was cold soaked for about 3 days with 30ppm sulfite and Lallzyme EX, the grapes definitely softened up a bit, I was going to let it go at 25.5 brix, but it ended up at 27 brix after the soak so I watered it back to 25 brix. The must pH was 3.63 initially, but dropped to 3.54 after adding the 6gm/l acidulated water, only a couple of hundredths higher for the Red Mountain blend. A 3 gallon DV10 yeast starter was added Tuesday evening when the must temperature was around 55F. Made first nutrient addition yesterday, roughly 1g/gal each of Superfood and DAP. The nutrient level of the Red Mountain fruit is ridiculously low at 22ppm, try fermenting that without nutrient addition! Cap was up this morning with current temperature at 61F.

This pail is the White Salmon Malbec just after cold soak, initially you couldn't see any juice.



pH after adding acidulated water



Vat and Brutes


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## CDrew (Dec 13, 2018)

Beautiful looking start.

You really planned it out well with regards to the height of your caps and the size of your fermenters!


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## SethF (Dec 14, 2018)

Looks great. I cold macerated this fall after crush (~34 gallons of must) for 7 days before ferment. Excited with the current status after MLF.

Where are you, and how much did Brehm charge? 

Thanks
Seth


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## SethF (Dec 14, 2018)

I looked at the Brehm site. $275.00 per 5 gal pail? And it looks like it's not crushed? 
Your initial post said "must?"


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## stickman (Dec 14, 2018)

As part of a group, I've been purchasing frozen must from Brehm every year for 19 years, it wouldn't be right for me to discuss publicly the pricing our group receives. Generally the grapes are crushed and destemmed, but the level of crushing depends on the size of the berries. You may not be able to tell in the photo, but many of those berries are 3/8" diameter, and they will get crushed slowly via punch downs during the primary fermentation, many wineries prefer must this way.


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## stickman (Dec 19, 2018)

I've been doing two drain and returns daily, punched the cap a few times along the way. Cap temperatures for the Brutes only hit 78, the vat being a larger volume got up to 84F. The vat is down to 0 brix, the brutes are at 1 Brix, trying to figure out the pressing schedule with the neighbor, maybe Friday or Saturday or possibly after the holidays. The color and aroma is good, no H2S issues, the taste has just a little sweetness left with slight tannin in the finish, I'm assuming the tannin will increase in the next couple of days on the skins.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 19, 2018)

Is a drain and return the same as a pump over? Sounds like a different method to accomplish the same thing.


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## stickman (Dec 19, 2018)

If you drain a pail at a time and dump back, I would say it is the same as a pump over, but if you drain all of the juice and allow the cap to drain and then return, I would say that is different than a pump over. I do the full drain and return until near 0 brix, then for the remainder of sugar, switch to one pail at a time for the full volume of juice.


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 19, 2018)

Glad I'm not the only one who uses a grilling thermometer to measure must temp. I use my Thermapen.


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## stickman (Dec 19, 2018)

Yea, I've got a couple of other dial thermometers, but nothing like the Weber instant gratification.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 20, 2018)

Just curious here since I've never heard those terms, but what's "drain and return" and "co-fermentation"?


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## stickman (Dec 20, 2018)

In this case, co-fermentation refers to combining and fermenting all of the grape varieties together. Historically this has been a tradition where certain vineyards were inter-planted with different grape varieties that were known from experience to compliment each other. Co-fermentation is sometimes confused with co-inoculation which usually refers to the addition of the malolactic culture early during the primary fermentation process.

"Drain and return" is just that, the fermenting juice is drained from the skins or "cap" and then returned or dumped back into the fermenter. If you drain a pail at a time and dump back, I would say it is the same as a "pump over", but if you drain all of the juice and allow the cap to drain and then return, I would say that is different than a pump over and is sometimes called a "delestage".


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 20, 2018)

stickman said:


> In this case, co-fermentation refers to combining and fermenting all of the grape varieties together. Historically this has been a tradition where certain vineyards were inter-planted with different grape varieties that were known from experience to compliment each other. Co-fermentation is sometimes confused with co-inoculation which usually refers to the addition of the malolactic culture early during the primary fermentation process.
> 
> "Drain and return" is just that, the fermenting juice is drained from the skins or "cap" and then returned or dumped back into the fermenter. If you drain a pail at a time and dump back, I would say it is the same as a "pump over", but if you drain all of the juice and allow the cap to drain and then return, I would say that is different than a pump over and is sometimes called a "delestage".


Thank you


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## stickman (Dec 23, 2018)

Completed the press yesterday, the press yield was around 8gal for each batch, the overall yield was 38gal per batch, I expect 35gal each after gross lees racking. The sg was .992, but the press released a little sugar as usual. All of the wine was put back into pails with lids to settle, will dump into the tanks today. The Moon mountain batch has a woody tannic note that is very interesting, the Red mountain batch currently has a bit less tannin and more noticeable fruit, obviously too early to make any real determinations, but they are definitely different wines.
I don't have a phone right now so I'm using an older camera for these, it seems like I have to take 5 to get one usable shot, then again, after a few glasses of wine it could just be operator error.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 31, 2018)

WOW, with that pomace you could make a nice batch of Aguardente (Grappa).


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## stickman (Jan 1, 2019)

Yea, we had 4 pomace cakes like that one, but these days I feel like the wine is enough work. Maybe with a big chest freezer it could be saved for a better time.


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## stickman (Jan 13, 2019)

Racked off of the gross lees Dec 27th and transferred to the tanks, allowed air contact, added two French oak staves to each tank, also added CH16 ML culture.

Obvious ML activity has been visible in the tanks for the past week, I'll probably do a chromatogram in a week or so just to get a starting point for comparison. Nothing unusual to report.


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## Johnd (Jan 13, 2019)

stickman said:


> Racked off of the gross lees Dec 27th and transferred to the tanks, allowed air contact, added two French oak staves to each tank, also added CH16 ML culture.
> 
> Obvious ML activity has been visible in the tanks for the past week, I'll probably do a chromatogram in a week or so just to get a starting point for comparison. Nothing unusual to report.
> 
> View attachment 52890



Lookin good @stickman , I can almost smell the fruity aroma wafting out of the tank.....


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## Mario Dinis (Jan 17, 2019)

stickman said:


> Racked off of the gross lees Dec 27th and transferred to the tanks, allowed air contact, added two French oak staves to each tank, also added CH16 ML culture.
> 
> Obvious ML activity has been visible in the tanks for the past week, I'll probably do a chromatogram in a week or so just to get a starting point for comparison. Nothing unusual to report.
> 
> View attachment 52890


Can you one do a ML fermentation with pre squeezed grape juice bought in 6 gallon pails or only with juice from grapes squeezed at home?


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## cmason1957 (Jan 17, 2019)

Mario Dinis said:


> Can you one do a ML fermentation with pre squeezed grape juice bought in 6 gallon pails or only with juice from grapes squeezed at home?


You can do Mlf on any juice, no matter where it came from. Except you don't want to do it on a wine kit. I do it on juice brought in from Chili and California almost every year.


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## stickman (Jan 28, 2019)

Checked pH and also ran a chromatogram; ML looks to be complete, pH is 3.63 for the Moon Mountain blend, and 3.69 for the Red Mountain blend, I'll probably wait another couple of weeks before racking and sulfiting.


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## stickman (Mar 5, 2019)

Finally did the post ML racking on these two Cab blends, they were just starting to pick up a hint of reduction. Pumped to clean tanks and added two additional staves for a total of 4, the two I just added are American oak med+ convection toast, I don't remember ordering American oak staves so I'll have to check the records, I added them before I realized they were different, we'll see what happens. Added 35ppm so2 to both tanks during transfer.

Red Mtn pH 3.67
Moon Mtn pH 3.61

A little reductive and tannic at this point, it took a couple of hours in the glass to open up, the red mountain definitely has a little less tannin and fruit perfume that makes it different. Color looks nearly the same, Moon Mtn on the left, Red Mtn on the right.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 5, 2019)

When you talk about reductive, what are you referring to.


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## stickman (Mar 5, 2019)

My use of the term is associated with the wine aromatics closing up due to lack of oxygen, these Cabs are fairly tannic, and before any sulfites are added, the wine has a high oxygen demand, much higher than what the plastic can pass. I didn't blanket the wine during the transfer, and the additional two staves will slowly provide some needed oxygen.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 5, 2019)

stickman said:


> My use of the term is associated with the wine aromatics closing up due to lack of oxygen, these Cabs are fairly tannic, and before any sulfites are added, the wine has a high oxygen demand, much higher than what the plastic can pass. I didn't blanket the wine during the transfer, and the additional two staves will slowly provide some needed oxygen.



Got it, my commercial friend advised me not to be shy with aerating the wine in the early stages.


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## SethF (Mar 5, 2019)

So please tell me about your experience with the flex tanks. Are those 15 gallons or 30 gallons? Do you have the ability to compare the micro oxygenation to barrels? Do you end up losing any volume to evaporation?


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## stickman (Mar 5, 2019)

I have 4 of the 30gal ECO Maturation tanks. I purchased the first tank in 2010 after my previous two 30gal barrels went neutral. My experience with the tanks so far has been good, but I think a barrel is still the gold standard; the tanks have certain advantages with respect to ease of cleaning and empty storage, controlled oxygen permeability, new oak of your choice for each batch, and light weight (approx 22lbs). 

I don't have any instrumentation for scientific analysis of the rate of micro oxygenation etc. The gas and water vapor permeability of various plastic materials is well known and documented in the food packaging industry. I don't believe there is any significant evaporation loss from the tank, though unrelated, the level of wine does drop over time as the staves become soaked.


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## SethF (Mar 6, 2019)

stickman said:


> I have 4 of the 30gal ECO Maturation tanks. I purchased the first tank in 2010 after my previous two 30gal barrels went neutral. My experience with the tanks so far has been good, but I think a barrel is still the gold standard; the tanks have certain advantages with respect to ease of cleaning and empty storage, controlled oxygen permeability, new oak of your choice for each batch, and light weight (approx 22lbs).
> 
> I don't have any instrumentation for scientific analysis of the rate of micro oxygenation etc. The gas and water vapor permeability of various plastic materials is well known and documented in the food packaging industry. I don't believe there is any significant evaporation loss from the tank, though unrelated, the level of wine does drop over time as the staves become soaked.


Thanks. Where are you getting the Oak Staves in those sizes?
Are you racking to empty tanks, or to other containers and then back into the tanks?
I would be so afraid to be doing the work on the hardwoods!
Still debating, and concerned about handling of the tanks, esp the 30 gallons.
I presently use 6.5 and 7.5 Fermonsters, and like them, but I don't believe there is any O2 permeability.
I asked about the angel's share because I think it contributes to the viscosity and concentration of the wine.
I will never deal with barrels, just not worth it for me.


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## stickman (Mar 6, 2019)

I usually rack from tank to tank, if I get into a bind I can always temporarily use a Brute or a couple of demijohns. There are many suppliers for staves like that, those particular staves I purchased direct from evOak. Presque Isle caries the Mercier brand of staves, which I've also used; you have to call to place an order.

https://oaksolutionsgroup.com/evoak/


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## Mario Dinis (Mar 8, 2019)

When you bottle your wine, how much metabilsulphite do you use to sanitize your bottles?


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## stickman (Mar 8, 2019)

I adjust the sulfite in the wine before bottling. Bottling day I rinse the bottles with a 1% sulfite solution, around 10g mixed with water to 1 liter, I'l toss in a couple of teaspoons of citric acid once the sulfite is dissolved, bottles remain upside down in cases until I'm ready to fill.


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## Mario Dinis (Mar 19, 2019)

stickman said:


> I adjust the sulfite in the wine before bottling. Bottling day I rinse the bottles with a 1% sulfite solution, around 10g mixed with water to 1 liter, I'l toss in a couple of teaspoons of citric acid once the sulfite is dissolved, bottles remain upside down in cases until I'm ready to fill.


Thank you


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## Mario Dinis (Mar 19, 2019)

Need an opinion here. I use pails of California juice. Don't have the room nor the equipment for grapes. I'm planning on doing Malbec, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon, maybe throw Syrah in it too. Separate fermentation and blend later. I see a lot of recommendations for D80, D254 and D21. I usually use Red Star Premier Rouge, but this time I'd like to try something different. What do you recommend for each wine?


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## CDrew (Mar 19, 2019)

Mario Dinis said:


> Need an opinion her. I use pails of California juice. Don't have the room nor the equipment for grapes. I'm planning on doing Malbec, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon, maybe throw Syrah in it too. Separate fermentation and blend later. I see a lot of recommendations for D80, D254 and D21. I usually use Red Star Premier Rouge, but this time I'd like to try something different. What do you recommend for each wine?



I've had good results with Premier Rouge, D254 and D21. Of these three, I prefer the D21, but that's personal opinion only. It started easily, produced no "off" smells, completed quickly and did not get quite as warm during fermentation (this can be both good and bad).

I also used Avante for the first time in 2018, and really liked that too. It is my plan to use this for all red wine going forward because of it's excellent kinetics and absolute freedom from H2S.

I would guess that there are more good choices than bad ones, so pick one that you've had a good experience with and use that. Or, since you have so many fermentations planned, experiment with one of them to see what you really like.

Good Luck


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## Mario Dinis (Mar 19, 2019)

CDrew said:


> I've had good results with Premier Rouge, D254 and D21. Of these three, I prefer the D21, but that's personal opinion only. It started easily, produced no "off" smells, completed quickly and did not get quite as warm during fermentation (this can be both good and bad).
> 
> I also used Avante for the first time in 2018, and really liked that too. It is my plan to use this for all red wine going forward because of it's excellent kinetics and absolute freedom from H2S.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I've had great results with Premier Rouge. I just want to try something different. I have never used anything else besides Premier Rouge.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 19, 2019)

I'm going to sound like a broken record to some but don't be afraid to split the batches and use different yeasts. Last spring I did a grape S African Cab using D254, D80 and 71B that is turning out very nice. My fall Syrah I used Syrah, AMH and D47. This one is going through too many changes to know how it will turn out but it could be promising. As CDrew said there are a lot of choices.


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## Mario Dinis (Mar 19, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I'm going to sound like a broken record to some but don't be afraid to split the batches and use different yeasts. Last spring I did a grape S African Cab using D254, D80 and 71B that is turning out very nice. My fall Syrah I used Syrah, AMH and D47. This one is going through too many changes to know how it will turn out but it could be promising. As CDrew said there are a lot of choices.


Thank you for your input. I'm just afraid of screwing up a good thing.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 19, 2019)

Mario Dinis said:


> Thank you for your input. I'm just afraid of screwing up a good thing.



Look at it this way, if you split the batch in 3rds and you mess up one of them you still have 66% of good wine. I know things happen but I have a feeling you won't allow any mess ups.


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## Mario Dinis (Mar 19, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Look at it this way, if you split the batch in 3rds and you mess up one of them you still have 66% of good wine. I know things happen but I have a feeling you won't allow any mess ups.


You're right


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## stickman (Mar 22, 2019)

Also checked the sulfite for the 2018 blends, only checked one and it was at 15.4ppm free so I added another tablet to each tank, which is approximately 17.6ppm addition.


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## Johnd (Mar 23, 2019)

stickman said:


> Also checked the sulfite for the 2018 blends, only checked one and it was at 15.4ppm free so I added another tablet to each tank, which is approximately 17.6ppm addition.



I’ve never used those big tabs, how do they work out on large batches? Do you just drop them in and let them dissolve?


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## mainshipfred (Mar 23, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I’ve never used those big tabs, how do they work out on large batches? Do you just drop them in and let them dissolve?



When I help at the winery they tell me to break them in 4ths and drop them in.


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## stickman (Mar 23, 2019)

@Johnd I'm using the 2g tablets, they also make a 5g version, but the name indicates the pure so2 delivered, so it can be misleading as the 2g tablet actually weighs 5.5g, containing 66% kmeta and 33% potassium bicarbonate. In my case the tanks are tall and narrow compared to a barrel, the tablet falls to the bottom and sends a plume of bubbles all the way to the surface, which is intended to provide mixing, but I always mix the tank anyway, I use a stainless rod or a racking cane to move the staves around which reach the bottom of the tank. The tablets are convenient and work well for tanks and barrels in the cellar, but I don't use them right before bottling as they tend to increase the co2 content of the wine.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 23, 2019)

K-Bicarb 33%?? 

What’s the logic there? What don’t I know?


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## CDrew (Mar 23, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> K-Bicarb 33%??
> 
> What’s the logic there? What don’t I know?



In the scheme of things, it's a tiny amount of CO2, and the bicarbonate turns it into a fizzy tablet like Alka-seltzer so it dissolves quickly and the rising bubbles serve to distribute the KMBS.

I am planning on using it next year because it looks easier!

I assume this is:
https://morewinemaking.com/products/effervescent-so2.html


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## stickman (Mar 23, 2019)

The one pictured is this.

https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/products/oenosteryl-2?variant=24299725446


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## Ajmassa (Mar 23, 2019)

CDrew said:


> In the scheme of things, it's a tiny amount of CO2, and the bicarbonate turns it into a fizzy tablet like Alka-seltzer so it dissolves quickly and the rising bubbles serve to distribute the KMBS.
> 
> I am planning on using it next year because it looks easier!
> 
> ...



Yeah i wasn’t concerned about co2 at all. In fact I think it’s welcome. Just adds protection. 
But was thinking in regards to k-bicarb is an antacid. 

But I’m assuming now that the dose is so minuscule that there’s no detectable effects from it, correct?


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## stickman (Mar 23, 2019)

@Ajmassa5983 I haven't noticed any significant effect on pH. One 2g net so2 tablet (5.5g gross) in a 30gal batch might drop the TA by .02g/l.


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## stickman (Jun 27, 2019)

Just did a quick check and taste on the 2018 cab blends, not much to report, color is good but maybe a little less than the 2017, aromatics starting to close a bit, taste is typical with a little fruit showing but tannins are dominating, there is less difference between the two at this point. Didn't bother testing so2, just added another 17ppm to both tanks.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 27, 2019)

stickman said:


> Just did a quick check and taste on the 2018 cab blends, not much to report, color is good but maybe a little less than the 2017, aromatics starting to close a bit, taste is typical with a little fruit showing but tannins are dominating, there is less difference between the two at this point. Didn't bother testing so2, just added another 17ppm to both tanks.
> 
> View attachment 55263



what is the ph?


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## stickman (Jun 27, 2019)

@mainshipfred you made me get off the lazy chair and calibrate my pH meter. 

Samples are at 20C

Moon Mtn. pH 3.65
Red Mtn. pH 3.72


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## mainshipfred (Jun 27, 2019)

stickman said:


> @mainshipfred you made me get off the lazy chair and calibrate my pH meter.
> 
> Samples are at 20C
> 
> ...


Sorry, the only reason I asked is i have a Cab Franc that is extremely tannic with a ph of near 4. A winemaker told me reducing the ph would mellow out the tannins. But you do have a Cab Sauv that should be tannic and 3.65 and 3.72 sounds right on target


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## stickman (Jun 27, 2019)

My opinion is that low acidity will allow for higher tannin without it being too aggressive. That's why the cult cabernet's can have low acidity and high pH, but still have balanced velvety tannins. If you already have aggressive tannin, and then you add acid, it usually exaggerates the tannin and acidity/tartness impression.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 28, 2019)

stickman said:


> My opinion is that low acidity will allow for higher tannin without it being too aggressive. That's why the cult cabernet's can have low acidity and high pH, but still have balanced velvety tannins. If you already have aggressive tannin, and then you add acid, it usually exaggerates the tannin and acidity/tartness impression.



I planned on doing an acid bench trial this weekend on the CF, a Syrah and a Touriga all around 4. I'll see how much of a difference a lower ph makes.


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## Martin Siebring (Jun 28, 2019)

stickman said:


> @Ajmassa5983 I haven't noticed any significant effect on pH. One 2g net so2 tablet (5.5g gross) in a 30gal batch might drop the TA by .02g/l.



What are you using to measure so2? I just got the Vinmetrica SC-300 but it's giving strange readings. I'm wondering if I have a bad probe.


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## stickman (Jun 28, 2019)

I'm using the old school wet method Aeration Oxidation. What do you mean by strange readings, is it repeatable? Several members have the Vinmetrica so they may be able to help.


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## Martin Siebring (Jun 28, 2019)

stickman said:


> I'm using the old school wet method Aeration Oxidation. What do you mean by strange readings, is it repeatable? Several members have the Vinmetrica so they may be able to help.



I'm following the directions precisely. No matter how much SO2 titrant I add, the reading on the meter will spike up to a high number and then gradually decrease back down to a reading around 5. The manual says the endpoint is reached when the reading stays above 50, but it never gets there. Am I doing something wrong?

Maybe I am just misreading the directions. I thought the reading needed to stabilize above 50 for 15 seconds, but does it just have to remain above 50 for 15 seconds even though it is dropping?


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## mainshipfred (Jun 28, 2019)

I didn't go back and reread it but what I do is add the titrant until it starts to beep and and beeps for 20 beeps. if it stops before 20 continue to add the titrant until you do reach the 20.


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## Martin Siebring (Jun 28, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I didn't go back and reread it but what I do is add the titrant until it starts to beep and and beeps for 20 beeps. if it stops before 20 continue to add the titrant until you do reach the 20.



Yeah that makes sense. I'm not sure why I was thinking the reading needed to stablize, it doesn't say that anywhere in the manual...


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## stickman (Sep 10, 2019)

Checked the SO2 and pH of the 2018 Cab blends:
Red Mountain, pH 3.73, SO2 14.4 ppm free
Moon Mountain, pH 3.65, SO2 15.7 ppm free
Added another SO2 tablet to each, approx 17.6 ppm

They are both interesting wines at this point, but very difficult to describe the difference, there is some red fruit showing, but I detect mostly tannic differences right now, Moon Mountain has more woody vine character, the Red Mountain tannins seem a little more grassy vine in nature. 

I ordered 500lbs of Moon Mountain Cab for the 2019 harvest, were going to do a 100% single vineyard Moon Mountain Cab this year.


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## stickman (Jun 4, 2020)

I missed updating this thread, so I'm adding information from my hand written notes to fill in the gap.

12/10/19, added 17.6 ppm SO2 to both cab tanks; no analysis was done.

3/1/20, ran sulfite test and got 16.5 ppm free; added another 17.6 ppm SO2 to both Cab tanks, stirred lees twice over the following few weeks.

6/4/20, today ran sulfite test on the Red Mountain Cab and got 22.4 ppm free; I'll add another dose of SO2 when I rack these wines to demijohns in preparation for bottling, hopefully soon. The wine has softened up quite a bit, the oak and fruit have come together, now I just need to get off of the lazy chair and get this stuff bottled.


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## stickman (Jun 12, 2020)

Procrastination is still happening, so I decided to add another so2 tablet (17.6 ppm) to each tank and re-suspend the lees. I'm hoping to rack to demijohns maybe in a couple of weeks.


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## Ajmassa (Jun 17, 2020)

stickman said:


> Procrastination is still happening, so I decided to add another so2 tablet (17.6 ppm) to each tank and re-suspend the lees. I'm hoping to rack to demijohns maybe in a couple of weeks.


Re-suspend the lees? As a byproduct of mixing in the so2 tab?
Or is there a greater purpose here for stirring up the lees so close to bottling?


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## stickman (Jun 17, 2020)

I had to stir because of the so2 addition, but it's part of my normal routine, most of my so2 additions don't involve a racking. At this late stage the lees settle fairly quickly, but figure as long as they're clean I might as well try to get as much from the lees as possible.


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## Ajmassa (Jun 18, 2020)

stickman said:


> I had to stir because of the so2 addition, but it's part of my normal routine, most of my so2 additions don't involve a racking. At this late stage the lees settle fairly quickly, but figure as long as they're clean I might as well try to get as much from the lees as possible.


Ah ok. Glad you clarified. Intentionally suspending lees in red wine is not something I see mentioned often. Actually I mostly see the opposite with an emphasis on having zero lees and crystal clear wine.
Even in late stages I never viewed lees dust as a bad thing. Though Ive only stirred it up very occasionally early on during MLF but never thought to do it later on.
But I do like the idea of it—-especially if going a while without racking. 
-mixing in so2 thoroughly
-extracting any last bits of ‘goodness‘ from lees
-(& my own little personal theory based on gut not science)~~a little o2 introduced to keep the wine honest/keeping the wines white blood cells in shape and not so fragile to future o2 shocking it’s system. (For glass storage at least)


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## stickman (Jun 18, 2020)

Normally with heavier reds the lees should be removed early in the process, as most people do, but later during aging, maybe 4 to 6 months after ML, some winemakers will add back the reserved fine lees and continue aging with occasional stirring. The reserved lees are kept until needed by storing in barrels, and are regularly stirred to provide access to some oxygen and prevent sulfur odors.


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## stickman (Jun 24, 2020)

Finally pumped the Red Mountain Cab to the bottling rack, it's a little more mature than the Moon Mountain Cab, enjoyable even at this stage, but I'm sure it will improve in the bottle. The carboy has very little oak and is different than the tank aged as expected. I considered blending the carboy with the tank aged stuff, but decided to keep it separate; it will provide some interesting conversation during future tastings. I'll probably check the SO2 one last time before bottling, hopefully in the next couple of weeks.


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## stickman (Aug 22, 2020)

Finally got around to bottling the Red Mountain Cab blend, the 7 cases are my share. The wine is very good at this point, nice fruit, huge body, mouthful of tannin but the texture is nice, we'll see what happens after some cellar time. I have to admit the bottle prep is a major pain, the bottles were already clean, but I still gave them a sulfite solution rinse before filling. 

Next in line for bottling is the Moon Mountain Cab, I'll need to purchase bottles for this batch.


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## Venatorscribe (Aug 23, 2020)

stickman said:


> Finally got around to bottling the Red Mountain Cab blend, the 7 cases are my share. The wine is very good at this point, nice fruit, huge body, mouthful of tannin but the texture is nice, we'll see what happens after some cellar time. I have to admit the bottle prep is a major pain, the bottles were already clean, but I still gave them a sulfite solution rinse before filling.
> 
> Next in line for bottling is the Moon Mountain Cab, I'll need to purchase bottles for this batch.
> 
> View attachment 65083


Yeah - agree with you re the bottle prep. I do similar. Store bottles clean and treat mine with a Star San rinse prior to bottling. I've learnt to cope with the monotony by listening to pod casts.


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## stickman (Oct 6, 2020)

Just updating this one, thinking about bottling the 2018 Moon Mtn. Cab in a month or two, decided to run a free SO2 test since it's been around 4 months from the last test. It came in fairly low at 12.4 ppm, so I added another 17.6 ppm tablet to the tank. As usual I'll give the wine a couple of weeks and then transfer to the bottling rack, check and adjust sulfite again, then bottle a couple of weeks after that. In this tank the SO2 seems to be dropping about 5 or 6 ppm per month. The wine is very enjoyable at this stage, nice fruit, tannins have softened, it definitely has brighter acidity than the Red Mountain.


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## stickman (Oct 26, 2020)

I checked the sulfite level again in the 2018 Moon Mountain Cab, it's at 20.7 ppm free; I had expected that some of the last addition would bind up. I went ahead and bumped it up an additional 10 ppm today in preparation for moving it to the bottling rack and bottling, yea like I said before "soon". I'm trying to keep the sulfite level in a reasonable range, it tastes good now and I don't want to wait 5yrs to start drinking it.

I pre-ordered 500# of must maybe 6 weeks ago, it was before the fires occurred in Sonoma. For obvious reasons, most of the must will be from the 2019 season, with a few pails from 2020. I'll probably receive it some time in November, and I'll start a new thread when that plan firms up. It's just another 60% Cab, 20% Merlot, 20% Malbec, blend which has been working well.


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## stickman (Dec 21, 2020)

Finally moved the 2018 Moon Mountain Cab to the bottling rack, after it comes up to room temperature I'll do some final SO2 testing and tasting before bottling, tannins have dropped down so the wine is drinkable now, but will be nice after some bottle time. During the transfer I moved the hose from vessel to vessel to blend the carboy aged wine with the tank aged. Corks are on order and I still need to get a couple cases of new bottles. 

The 2020 must will be picked up the first week of the new year, I figured it would be best to get through the holidays before starting the new wine.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 21, 2020)

What corks did you order. I'm down to about 175 and will need to order soon. I have been using the Scott Labs lower grade but was thinking about getting Nomacorc's.


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## stickman (Dec 21, 2020)

I've been getting the Scott Lab UF grade by the 1,000, they are very good quality and Scott Lab has a very tight TCA inspection program. I also think Nomacorcs are good quality at a reasonable price, they have a number of different specifications to select from, I've been looking at them, but it's just another thing I've decided not to change just yet. I think this wine making thing is a combination of science, art, and a little bit of superstition.


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## CDrew (Dec 21, 2020)

I’ve been drinking a bit of my 2018 bottled with normacorc s and so far not one failure or failure to seal. They are a good product in my opinion. Worthy of a test bottling.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 21, 2020)

January?! Well I could think of no better way to start off the new year then with a Brehms ferment. Good luck to you sir

The Moon Mt cab color looks absolutely amazing. As always!
Like you I also try to blend vessels prior to bottling for bottle consistency but isn’t always easy when vessels are all different sizes. I’ll often do it the night before or that day if I can’t keep full vessels. I should probably make more ofe an effort to allow some time between like your doing.
So did you make a Moon/Red carboy blend? Would be interesting to see how the cabs compared to each other as well as a blend. And also-what type of staves did you go with? Same type for both cabs?


stickman said:


> Finally moved the 2018 Moon Mountain Cab to the bottling rack, after it comes up to room temperature I'll do some final SO2 testing and tasting before bottling, tannins have dropped down so the wine is drinkable now, but will be nice after some bottle time. During the transfer I moved the hose from vessel to vessel to blend the carboy aged wine with the tank aged. Corks are on order and I still need to get a couple cases of new bottles.
> 
> The 2020 must will be picked up the first week of the new year, I figured it would be best to get through the holidays before starting the new wine.
> 
> ...


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## stickman (Dec 21, 2020)

I didn't do a Moon/Red carboy blend, though I probably used a bottle or two for the occasional top up after sampling the tank. Used two American oak med+ convection toast staves, and two French oak med+ infrared toast, it was the same oak for both cabs.


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## stickman (Feb 27, 2021)

Finally closing this one out after two years. We bottled the 2018 Cab blend and got 14 cases overall as expected, only 10ppm so2 was added for the bottling process. The wine has huge body and the fruit and tannin are in reasonable balance, I'm sure it will take at least a year in bottle to see what we really have. A few other things are on the to do list, the 2019 Cab is at the one year mark and needs to be racked soon, and the 2020 Cab blend looks like it finished ML so I'll probably start a chromatogram for that today.


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