# "You Should Sell Your Wine!"



## KAndr97 (Apr 12, 2019)

Anybody else get this from their family and friends all the time? Whenever I mention my latest brew, everyone asks me how much I'll sell it for or why I don't set up a stand at the market. I'm just not that committed. Plus, I like to drink my wine. I don't get this response about any of my other hobbies, but everyone seems to think that basement hooch is a huge cash cow.


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## dralarms (Apr 12, 2019)

Yea, I get it all the time. Too bad it’s against federal law. I like my wine and freedom to much to get started on that


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## Scooter68 (Apr 12, 2019)

Plus they don't understand what "Selling" involves in terms or business and possibly Liquor licenses, not to mention health department standards. As you said, I do it for my enjoyment and I share freely with people who appreciate the varieties I make. IF they, on occasion, want to contribute to the cost of supplies for a new batch - I'm open to that but I never ask for it.


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## salcoco (Apr 13, 2019)

old saying"if you want to make a small fortune in wine business start with a large one"


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 13, 2019)

I get that as well. Or "can I buy a bunch of this from you?". When I start to talk about licensing, taxation, etc. I lose them pretty quickly. LOL!


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## ibglowin (Apr 13, 2019)

I get it as well. When I tell them I would want $15-20 a bottle they usually say Oh........ It's like they think because you made it it should be cheap/almost free.


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## Scooter68 (Apr 13, 2019)

Solution - Get Danica Patrick to promote your wines under her label.


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## skyfire322 (Apr 13, 2019)

All the time! While it'd be nice to earn a profit from my favorite hobby, I tell thim I don't want to go through all the hoops to get a license and don't want to break the law. I will admit that a few Alexander Hamilton's have magically appeared in my "winemaking fund" jar, though.


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## Obbnw (May 21, 2019)

That's why I don't share my wine 

But seriously how could anyone make any money at it? I'm a cheap spanish wine guy, so my average wine purchase is $10/bottle and the wine I make is at best $10/bottle quality so it will be years before I just recoup the money I have spent (with all my time being free).


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## cassandrafallon (May 21, 2019)

I’m not saying selling wine for $5/bottle to friends in college (mist varieties, cost about $2 got bottles for free and people brought them back) paid for a lot of my partying, but I’m not saying it didn’t.


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## cmason1957 (May 21, 2019)

cassandrafallon said:


> I’m not saying selling wine for $5/bottle to friends in college (mist varieties, cost about $2 got bottles for free and people brought them back) paid for a lot of my partying, but I’m not saying it didn’t.


Selling wine without a license is something that the feds look very poorly on. I wouldn't say anything about it anywhere. And yes, they do investigate things like that. Is it worth the $10k and two to three years, plus the cost of a lawyer?


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## Scooter68 (May 21, 2019)

The Wine I make you cannot buy in any store (Its fruit wine and 100% the fruit on the label not a hidden blended). Not looking down on blends but for me this is what I like.

I make wine as a hobby and because you can't buy what I make.

Even if I was crazy enough to 'get legal' for selling - It wouldn't be worth my time and effort. Folks that suggest selling homemade with are often the people with the "Get Rich Quick" schemes and no concept of what it really takes to do it right.


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## cassandrafallon (May 22, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> Selling wine without a license is something that the feds look very poorly on. I wouldn't say anything about it anywhere. And yes, they do investigate things like that. Is it worth the $10k and two to these years, plus the cost of a lawyer?


For clarity I’m not suggesting it, we all do stupid shit in college and I knew plenty of people doing much stupider things. Just an amusing memory looking back.


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## Scooter68 (May 22, 2019)

Cassandrafallon - Agree - Think that it was just a reminder to all. We do get some 'free thinkers' on here from time-to-time. The occasional bottle 'sold' to a friend is one thing but a regular sale of your wine to various people another matter.

A similar comment should be considered about the volume of wine we make as well. Federal and most state laws set a limit at 200 gallons of wine per household per year (Assuming at least to adults in residence) A quick check of numbers shows that to consume that much wine in a years time each of those two adults would have to consume at least 35 ounces of wine per day every day of the year. So the federal limits are really pretty lenient. Aging and various small give aways aside I really doubt that most folks on this forum consume that much wine every year. Point is that while the Feds aren't going to be out looking to detect someone selling a few bottles here and there or someone exceeding the limits on production, but IF you are going to do either frequent selling or large scale production of wine, it would wise to 'get legal' in the eyes of the law. As cmason stated, the costs of getting caught in a blantant or flagrant disregard of the laws can get pretty steep. So exceeding those limits by large amounts is getting pretty flagrant. Some states by the way are more stringent on both production and even the 'free' distribution of wine. (Alabama I believe has a limit on the books of 5 gallons per year for home wine production.)

I know this is belaboring issues the majority of us don't face but again, there are those who appear on here who lean toward those 'get rich quick' schemes, sometimes without realizing the potential costs. 

I happen to have a nephew of that sort who will see me having made something and suddenly he's telling me I can make a lot of money by selling whatever it is. Of course he has tried a number of schemes, unsuccessfully and I just tune him out whenever he starts talking about such things. 

Making wine has become a fun hobby for me, one of several I can indulge in now that I'm retired - and I intend to stay retired - making wine to sell.... that's work.


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## BernardSmith (May 22, 2019)

Forget about regulations for the moment. To make a living selling wines that you make means that you need to sell enough to bring in - what? $50,000 a year? That means you need to cover fixed costs (your winery, storage, and the like ) and variables like labor and raw materials, so you are talking about - what? $100,000 .00? At say, $10.00 a bottle - selling price (I am ignoring taxes) that means you need to sell 10,000 bottles (ignore breakages, catastrophes with temperature , with cleaning and sanitation, with leaks etc - That means you need to make -what? 15,000 bottles a year (to have a pipeline) . That's about 1,250 cases - and that's about 24 cases each and every week or more than 800 bottles a month. Of course if you viewed a salary of $50,000 as too high then you could afford to sell fewer... but it strikes me - and I am not a business person - that the idea of becoming a commercial wine maker - no matter how good your wine might be - sounds like a recipe for anxiety. As a hobby home wine making is a joy. As a business for someone just staring off it must be close to a nightmare.


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## Ron0126 (May 22, 2019)

BernardSmith said:


> Forget about regulations for the moment. To make a living selling wines that you make means that you need to sell enough to bring in - what? $50,000 a year? That means you need to cover fixed costs (your winery, storage, and the like ) and variables like labor and raw materials, so you are talking about - what? $100,000 .00? At say, $10.00 a bottle - selling price (I am ignoring taxes) that means you need to sell 10,000 bottles (ignore breakages, catastrophes with temperature , with cleaning and sanitation, with leaks etc - That means you need to make -what? 15,000 bottles a year (to have a pipeline) . That's about 1,250 cases - and that's about 24 cases each and every week or more than 800 bottles a month. Of course if you viewed a salary of $50,000 as too high then you could afford to sell fewer... but it strikes me - and I am not a business person - that the idea of becoming a commercial wine maker - no matter how good your wine might be - sounds like a recipe for anxiety. As a hobby home wine making is a joy. As a business for someone just staring off it must be close to a nightmare.



I agree 100% ... and yet ... there's a guy just down the road from me that set up his own winery, licensed, legal, and making a ton of wine. He started just by making some kits and fruit wines but loved doing it so much he kinda took it a step further. Every Saturday (that's currently the only day they're open) there are dozens of people coming to tour his place -- it's in the basement of his personal home.
https://cat-n-bird.com/
He actually gave me about 150 empty bottles because regulations won't let him wash and reuse them. WIN! 

He hasn't quit his day job but he has it going on full bore.


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## BernardSmith (May 22, 2019)

But your last line is the clincher. He hasn't quit his day job.. so whatever he makes and sells is cherry on the cake unless of course he is running that business as a non profit (Not a not for profit)..


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## Scooter68 (May 22, 2019)

Agree Bernard - Once you invest in the license and health department certifications you are going to be investing a significant amount. A dedicated room or whatever is required by your local and state codes. It turns a hobby into a lot of effort, even if you have another primary income, just breaking even on your investment is going to be a effort.

On the other hand today I had some work done on our house. The two guys doing the work didn't know it but after they finished I walked them up to our other house where they are going to do some more work in the next week or so. That 'other house' is where I make my wine. They left with big smiles on their faces and two bottles of wine each. Peach for their lady and a Tart Cherry and a Black Currant for the guys. I think they will be coming back to do the rest of the work soon. Oh and they got to taste some young unsweetened Tart Cherry and they were hooked. I might end up coaching one of them through wine making 101.
It's a fun way to reward those who do good work for me.


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## BernardSmith (May 22, 2019)

Spot on, Scooter68. Spot on.


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## Ron0126 (May 22, 2019)

BernardSmith said:


> But your last line is the clincher. He hasn't quit his day job.. so whatever he makes and sells is cherry on the cake unless of course he is running that business as a non profit (Not a not for profit)..



They’re hosting weddings, conducting multiple private corporate events, and selling a ton of wine (check out their website). Matt’s been making wine for a long enough time to have oak barrel aged his reds for 3-5 years. It’s a full fledged business and from what I’ve seen, is highly successful. Plus his wine is really, really good! He is a sales manager for a software company and he’s pretty successful at that too.

I think it all boils down to how badly do you want it to happen. Matt and Robyn want it and they’re making it happen.


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## jgmillr1 (May 22, 2019)

BernardSmith said:


> That means you need to make -what? 15,000 bottles a year (to have a pipeline)



Yep, and to sell that much wine you need employees which then cut into any "profits" there appear to be. So you need to sell more then...


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## LouisCKpasteur (May 22, 2019)

Yes, people have asked me if I've ever thought about selling it. I always tell them, to make them feel good, that it's priceless, and that's why I'm giving it to them. Now I have a decent budget for playing around with this hobby, so I always got something going - even stuff that I don't like (Moscato) because I know others DO. Even though I'm old, I still like impressing the ladies, and keeping them stocked with wine makes them very happy. Some good observations on this thread. Along with the difficulties of ramping up production and getting a pipeline going, I would worry about style and varietal 'creep'. Most of my favorite wines tend to be French, American, and Italian, from producers who do only a few things with only a few varietals. That's what I think of when I think of a traditional winemaker. When you start having to do kowtow to the marketplace you may find yourself having to do things you don't really want too. So your premium Red whatever still wine which used to sell for 60 bucks is not moving because the 'publics' taste has changed so maybe some consultant tells you to use that varietal and make a sparkling wine that maybe is outside your area of competence. I'd be inclined to say no thanks. I'll keep doing what I do to tastes come around again. Of course, you may not be able to stay solvent until that happens which is why I would suck at running a winery.


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## KAndr97 (May 28, 2019)

dralarms said:


> Yea, I get it all the time. Too bad it’s against federal law. I like my wine and freedom to much to get started on that



To be honest, I wouldn't wanna buy any wine made under the table. Whenever someone suggests skirting those regulations, I'm reminded of the hot sauce guy whose house was raided by the feds. I can't find it at the moment but this guy was selling and giving away home made hot sauce on a sauce forum. His house got raided by the feds (unconnected to the sauce I think) and they found his house to be absolutely filthy. Not like clothes on the floor dirty, like infested with vermin and jars of moldy sauce all over his kitchen. That's why when my coworker offered to sell me some of her boyfriend's moonshine, I politely declined.


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## dralarms (May 28, 2019)

KAndr97 said:


> To be honest, I wouldn't wanna buy any wine made under the table. Whenever someone suggests skirting those regulations, I'm reminded of the hot sauce guy whose house was raided by the feds. I can't find it at the moment but this guy was selling and giving away home made hot sauce on a sauce forum. His house got raided by the feds (unconnected to the sauce I think) and they found his house to be absolutely filthy. Not like clothes on the floor dirty, like infested with vermin and jars of moldy sauce all over his kitchen. That's why when my coworker offered to sell me some of her boyfriend's moonshine, I politely declined.


Dang. That’s just nasty.


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## Scooter68 (May 28, 2019)

No one is advocating skirting regulations. Hobbyist wine makers like most of us on this board are highly unlikely to be making wine in unsanitary conditions. Wine can develop too many off-tastes too easily and most folks on here are extremely cautious in their entire wine making process. Suggest you read some more threads on here to get a better idea of how careful folks are about the wine making process. 

The point about any governmental regulation is that very often they require record keeping in great detail and re-occurring health checks of anyone involved. Licensing fees alone are the biggest reason for not becoming a legal seller of wine unless you are prepared to go all-in as a winery. A lot of folks give away their wine because they want to. We don't even suggest anyone paying us for the wine. Some people will offer us fruit or other supplies because they would like to try a wine and they don't want to do it themselves. 

And finally - Moonshine is a totally different story - that process does in fact involve some seriously dangerous by-products that can all too easily end up in that bottle plus making ANY amount without a license is illegal anywhere in the US. I know folks do it but on here - we don't discuss it for that same reason.

As to that sauce guy, if the feds were on his tail... Most reasonable people should already have seen something strange about him if they are around him much at all.


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## KAndr97 (May 28, 2019)

Scooter68 said:


> No one is advocating skirting regulations. Hobbyist wine makers like most of us on this board are highly unlikely to be making wine in unsanitary conditions. Wine can develop too many off-tastes too easily and most folks on here are extremely cautious in their entire wine making process. Suggest you read some more threads on here to get a better idea of how careful folks are about the wine making process.
> 
> The point about any governmental regulation is that very often they require record keeping in great detail and re-occurring health checks of anyone involved. Licensing fees alone are the biggest reason for not becoming a legal seller of wine unless you are prepared to go all-in as a winery. A lot of folks give away their wine because they want to. We don't even suggest anyone paying us for the wine. Some people will offer us fruit or other supplies because they would like to try a wine and they don't want to do it themselves.
> 
> ...




I wasn't suggesting that y'all were, but everyone I know IRL thinks that I can just set up a booth at the local farmer's market and raise my finger to the authorities.


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## cmason1957 (May 28, 2019)

KAndr97 said:


> I wasn't suggesting that y'all were, but everyone I know IRL thinks that I can just set up a booth at the local farmer's market and raise my finger to the authorities.


I always ask those folks if they will front me the money for the funds and serve the time for me. After explaining the amount and lengths most will go away and shut up.


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## Scooter68 (May 29, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> I always ask those folks if they will front me the money for the funds and serve the time for me. After explaining the amount and lengths most will go away and shut up.



Yup - And folks suggesting a farmer's market booth are like my nephew who is always looking for and ready to talk about some 'get rich quick' scheme. He's tried several himself with no success. I just thank them for their idea (sometimes) and move on. Hard to enjoy the benefits of a successful scheme when you are behind bars of facing a big fine/lawsuit.


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## BernardSmith (May 29, 2019)

Farmer's markets are a wonderful institution and the ones we have around here are really quite incredible but I don't see anyone making a real living selling what they grow/make at those markets. One of my colleagues has a small farm and she sells vegetables (and some meat) from her farm but her day job is as a member of faculty at the state university. The only way you can end up with a small fortune at a farmer's market is if you start with a large one.


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## askins3097 (May 30, 2019)

I’ve had many people offer to buy wine from me. To the point I could probably sell 20-30 cases a year right now without even trying. My wife works in an office with like 900 people. Her office friends love wine lol. I just tell her no, it’s a federal offense, they can have a bottle if they’d like, just bring me the empties. 

As far as doing it legally, there’s a lot of small boutique wineries doing it out of their basement around my area. It’s completely 100% doable for the average person if they take the time to educate themselves on basic business principles. Are you going to get rich and quit your day job? Probably no chance. At least not in Western Pennsylvania. Could you take your hobby to the next level, at least break even and get some level of gratification for your efforts? Regardless of what the naysayers will tell you, Yes, or there wouldn’t be so many people doing it. Some day when I’m closer to retirement it’s an idea I might entertain. Right now I’m too busy with my regular career and plus I still have a lot to learn. I’d like to turn my 10 years of experience into 20-30 before I’d ever consider applying for a license.


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## CDrew (May 30, 2019)

I so hate the idea of turning a hobby into a job. This is a good long term hobby, but if you need to turn a profit, selling to the public, it's a whole different thing.

It's different if you're 25 and pursue an interest in enology and at 35 establish a winery. For that, I'd say good luck to you. But the idea of having to make a profit in wine starting at age 55 or 60 is pretty daunting.

And the legal complications are endless. 

With alcohol related things, the feds take it very seriously, and it's not smart to try and slip around the law.


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## Scooter68 (May 31, 2019)

CDrew - add to that the different state laws and you have to be certain that you comply with their alcohol license / sales laws AND the Health department, State and Local.

And then there is that thing about shipping across state lines. Most times when I find a wine or any alcohol drink on-line, I also find that they cannot ship to another state or at least the states I have lived in. (Arkansas and Virginia)

So you are correct - at the serious commercial level there are methods and limits that would strangle a lot of mom & pop wineries or just make it very challenging. And after all, I retired to enjoy life, not to pick up the sword to do battle with Federal, State, and Local authorities to simply sell wine.


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## KevinL (Jun 2, 2019)

I always told people that it was illegal and if they wanted a bottle just to bring me empties. I was at the point though where I would want to produce more, but really didn't have the money to sink into the hobby. So because I was giving bottles away, my batches would vanish less than a month after they were made. I've always loved sharing the wine with folks.

Then I read from Wines to Vines, and then started doing serious digging into the regulation. I had a conversation with my wife who told me "good luck with that." I took that as permission to begin.

I converted an old 100 square foot room off the side of my house into the winery. We opened last October. www.lfvwarrenville.com

Each state and city varies. Red Tape has been the most frustrating part of it. In the end about 40% of my costs in getting established (To include planting the grapes) was spent satisfying red tape. The first few years were spent researching soil, trellises, grape varieties and winemaking. The next was spent entirely researching red tape.

Having been through it all I'm thoroughly convinced that the TTB and ILCC do not need to exist. But since they do, it is nice that the people there are generally helpful. It was more time consuming and annoying that actually frustrating. Combine all of it together and that's where the frustration builds.

For my operation I have about $3,000 annually in overhead (Licenses, Insurance, Website, phone etc.) Considering I make around 7-8$ a bottle profit, I've got to move around 35 cases of wine before I make a dollar. If I manage to cover expenses this year it'll be on the back of fruit wines while the vineyard matures. Once I have a good pipeline going I'll look into aging things a little longer. I think I calculated that even when things are going full speed and if I sell out each year I'll probably be making $2-3 an hour. So definitely not get rich quick. And yes, I still have my day job. I don't anticipate I'll be going full time with this any time in the next two decades. 

It helps that this business is as much my wife's now as it is mine. She runs all of the marketing, website, sales, label design and COLA approval. I have the added benefit of being in my hometown and fairly well connected to the community. I've had help from my family, friends, and the guys at my VFW post. Having started in 2016, this is the first year that we hope to turn a profit. We'll see how it all goes.

Anyway, I guess my point is if you want to do it, it's possible. There will be some work that you probably won't enjoy. But at the end of the day I find that having a community that is excited about me opening as well as lots of people saying they enjoy the wine is really rewarding.


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## sour_grapes (Jun 2, 2019)

I am just grateful that people don't say to me "You should *BUY* your wine!"


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## Scooter68 (Jun 2, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> I am just grateful that people don't say to me "You should *BUY* your wine!"




WOW ! That would leave a mark.


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## Bkat (Jun 3, 2019)

I think a lot of the obstacle is cultural. Used to be, in places like France, farmers regularly made and sold small batch wine as a side income to everything else they were doing. Since then, even French government has made that more complicated, but there are still a lot more micro-producers in EU than here in the US. Lots of reasons for that but I suspect a big one is, US government doesn't want small producers, so it becomes political. 

In Illinois, liquor distributors hold huge sway over state government and have lobbied hard to prevent craft producers of wine, beer, and spirits from getting any real traction, so cost to enter market is made onerous. Beer is the worst. A few years back, the Wirtz family (they own the Chicago Blackhawks) lobbied for, and got, major restrictions on micro brewers because (wait for it) they would cause the Wirtz family's liquor distribution company immense financial harm. Needless to say, Miller, Budweiser, etc. all supported the effort lest they lose market share to a couple guys making a few hundred gallons of actual beer.


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## Scooter68 (Jun 3, 2019)

And state by state the rules vary.

Anyone from Alabama on here?

*You are legally limited to producing not more than 5 gallons per year.
*
Yup for many of the folks on there that's one batch per year. Or five little batches or... You get the picture. Crazy restrictive. Of course who's going to monitor that. Well some states check shipping manifests so if you have a drum of wine base shipped via truck - they can easily track you down. (In Virginia we had a sofa made and shipped to our home there from out of state - in less than a year we got an official letter informing us we had to pay the sales taxes ASAP - States do track such things.)

*
Here's the actual code quote:*

Ala. Code §28-4-3

The laws against possession, transportation or delivery of prohibited liquors shall not apply to the possession of wine or cordial made from grapes or other fruit when the grapes or other fruit are grown by the person making the same for his own domestic use upon his own premises in this state and when such person keeps such wine or cordial for his own domestic use on his own premises in any quantity not exceeding five gallons for one family in 12 months.


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## KevinL (Jun 3, 2019)

Bkat said:


> In Illinois, liquor distributors hold huge sway over state government and have lobbied hard to prevent craft producers of wine, beer, and spirits from getting any real traction, so cost to enter market is made onerous. Beer is the worst. A few years back, the Wirtz family (they own the Chicago Blackhawks) lobbied for, and got, major restrictions on micro brewers because (wait for it) they would cause the Wirtz family's liquor distribution company immense financial harm. Needless to say, Miller, Budweiser, etc. all supported the effort lest they lose market share to a couple guys making a few hundred gallons of actual beer.



I do think the culture is changing. A lot of people in my generation are in to the whole local thing. I see the appeal. There's something nice about being able to see where your products are produced for niceties like wine.

On Illinois, the distributors are a big problem. When I was first started researching this in 2013 I almost wrote off my project. The Illinois General Assembly passed a self-distribution exemption back in 2014 (or 2015?) that allowed for self distribution of up to 5,000 gallons per year. As I operate out of my residence, I'm not worried about ever hitting that mark as far as production (I estimate I'll do 400 gallons in a good year.)

I currently have the cheapest of Illinois Licenses: the Limited Wine Manufacturer license



> A limited wine-manufacturer may make sales and deliveries not to exceed 40,000 gallons of wine per year to distributors and to nonlicensees in accordance with the provisions of the Illinois Liquor Control Act. A limited wine manufacturer uses only grapes, berries, other fruits, fruit products, honey and vegetables produced or grown in Illinois, except as defined in the Illinois Liquor Control Act, Section 5/1-3.31.



I've spent a lot of time reading the Illinois Liquor control act as I was doing this. The license isn't as restrictive as it originally reads. The limitation to use of Illinois Grown products actually comes in over time and maxes out at 40% of everything I produce after I've been operating for a while. This license was also eligible for a self-distribution exception, which I have. So I'm free to wholesale to any retailer and skip the distributor. I've only done direct to customer at this point though.

That doesn't mean that the distributors like to be skipped. I've heard in some parts of the state that if Wirtz catches you with something on your shelf that they didn't sell you, then they (being the main game in town) will cut you off and put you out of business unless you keep your shelves stocked with their goods. With the explosion of craft brewing I don't know if that Chicago Mob-style way of doing things has persisted. I haven't tried to get into any grocery or liquor stores yet.

The biggest limitation with my license is that it does not allow me to do events. That's not an issue now, as I can't seem to keep up with demand. The city park district has asked that I do a tent at events, and I'm already seriously considering upgrading my license to allow me a little more freedom. I probably won't ever do a wine tasting event, but I'm up for showing up at the Local Park District 4th of July and the City Art festival. I'm a bit nervous about upping my overhead at this point though.


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