# Apple juice AND concentrate



## Downwards (May 17, 2013)

I love the apple wine. I think it's because it was my first wine that came out well, that I'm particularly attached to it. I also know I love doing it because I buy the cider in gallon jugs and keep the jugs for bulk aging. I've done apple from concentrate, apple (crushed cider) with black currant, and a cyser that I made with the jugged sweet cider. 
I think for my next one though, I'm going to do one made with apple cider and then sweetened as must with apple concentrate instead of any sugar. I would guess that any problems I have with this will be with it being too tart. How would I go about correcting this? Is it time to learn about MLF, being that the malic acid is the tartest tasting, or do I simply adjust the acid with some calcium carbonate? Will aging help with this also, maybe I won't need to adjust at all? Is there an acidity or pH I should watch for that is just too much?

Thanks!


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## seth8530 (May 17, 2013)

I would give MLF a go and use a yeast strain that can handle the acid. Also, make sure to check the TA and PH before and after fermentation.. That way there will be no surprises.


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## Deezil (May 17, 2013)

I dont think you'll have too many problems adding concentrate to apple juice to up the sugar.. Maybe the TA/pH, but you'll want to taste it to determine that.. 

You could calcium carbonate it, just be careful that you dont overdo it.

If you go the MLF-route, realize that its going to change the perception of the wine as it eats away the acidity, shifting the balance of the wine and can hide flavors you wanted to save or create flavors you didnt see coming.

I have an apple-pear wine that i made last fall, it MLF'd itself, I enjoy the outcome myself but if you're attached to a particular batch with a particular taste-profile, just dont want ya to be disappointed if MLF changes it towards something you havent tasted much before

It's hard for me to stay out of that Apple-Pear


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## Dokki (May 17, 2013)

I've back-sweetened with Apple Juice concentrate without issue. Didn't MLF either.

http://siponthis.org/prior-vintages/2011-2/2011-apple-wine/
http://siponthis.org/currently-brewing/2012-apple-wine/


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## vacuumpumpman (May 17, 2013)

I always added apple juice concentrate - old orchard, and never had a problem yet.


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## saramc (May 18, 2013)

Deezil said:


> I have an apple-pear wine that i made last fall, it MLF'd itself
> 
> It's hard for me to stay out of that Apple-Pear



Funny you said that, I have an apple-pear currently going thru a natural MLF. For 11 months I had fabulous, though a bit tart, crystal clear wine, was a month away of final stabilizing and whammo, vigorous ferment noted just two weeks later. After the racking until lees free I had only touched it to dose with k-meta once a quarter, that is all. I was 'omg, it is MLFing itself!!'. Put a big sticker 'do not add sorbate' on the carboy. Looking forward to seeing where this batch ends up, smells great.


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## Turock (May 18, 2013)

Some people do an MLF on apple. But another thing you can try is using a malic acid metabolizing culture such as 71B. The malic in apple doesn't seem as harsh to me as it does on pear. But the 71B will make it nice and smooth. Maybe an option to MLF.

I see no problem with sweetening it with a juice or concentrate--just be sure it's 100% apple juice.


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## Turock (May 18, 2013)

Hmmm--MLF'ing itself. This almost sounds pornographic.


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## Arne (May 18, 2013)

saramc said:


> Funny you said that, I have an apple-pear currently going thru a natural MLF. For 11 months I had fabulous, though a bit tart, crystal clear wine, was a month away of final stabilizing and whammo, vigorous ferment noted just two weeks later. After the racking until lees free I had only touched it to dose with k-meta once a quarter, that is all. I was 'omg, it is MLFing itself!!'. Put a big sticker 'do not add sorbate' on the carboy. Looking forward to seeing where this batch ends up, smells great.


 
Sara, at least yours was still in the carboy. When I had it happen it was already bottled. Was only a gal. but 3 out of the 5 bottles blew their corks. The other two were put in the reefer and opened shortly thereafter. It was a really nice sparkling wine. Didn't make up for the mess of the first three, tho. Anyway, over the years there have been a lot of threads about refermenting in the bottles and apple seems to be the culprit a lot of the time. Arne.


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## Downwards (May 18, 2013)

Turock, I have lots of 71B, maybe I'll see how that goes first and then think about mlf after I taste it. Thanks!

Any way to calculate approx how many cans of concentrate would be needed to sweeten up apple cider to about 1.080? I don't mean hard cider here, I mean fresh cider. Not really looking for exact figures, I know they will vary. Just an approximation of how many per gallon so I'll have a ballpark number to buy.. Going to use about 10 gallons of fresh cider and an unknown number of concentrates.


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## Turock (May 19, 2013)

Downwards---Oh, I see what you're trying to do now. I thought you were asking about using concentrate to sweeten at BOTTLING.

Well, maybe the thing to ask yourself is how much concentrate you need for upping the FLAVOR--not so much to hit a specific brix for setting alcohol content. I have never set a fermentation in this way, but I guess I would go by tasting the juice. Once you get a couple cans of concentrate in there, then check the SG. If you're happy with the flavor, finish off the SG with sugar to hit your target. 

I'd be careful doing this--sometimes you're shocked by how much the SG rises with just a couple cans of concentrate.


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## Downwards (May 19, 2013)

Exactly! The flavor is what I'm after here. I like the flavor in commercial hard ciders- very crisp and apple-y. In the wine I've made the apple just isn't there, at least not in the same way. I figure it's because I'm sweetening it with sugar syrup, and not with apple syrup- for lack of a better term. 
I want an apple wine that is just blasting with apple flavor. 

Side note: I did actually back sweeten my cyser (made from cactus and sage honey and soft cider) with apple concentrate though. I really like that too! Sadly, I used elderflower as an adjunct there and it's a little too strong right now. It it doesn't mellow, I'll make another batch of cyser the same way and add it..


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## Turock (May 20, 2013)

OK--here's another idea. Have you ever looked at the Vintner's Harvest, Alexander's Sun Country, etc. for an apple PUREE? I'm not sure if they sell pureed apple. 

Last year we bought some peaches from the Amish auction that didn't have real high flavor. So we added a can of peach puree(I think it was Vintner's Harvest) to the primary. Wow--turned out with excellent flavor.

It's not that I'm against 100% apple concentrate--but the puree might be fanastic if you could find it. Might have more flavor.

The other thing about apple is that to bring the flavor out to its best, apple can take a couple years to really come into its own. So making it every year eventually gives you enough to be bottling while more is aging up for you. Several year old apple is really good. Last year we made apple on the fruit--not pressed juice. We wanted to experiment with seeing if all fruit made any difference. We used several varieties of apples. Still too young to evaluate so the jury's still out on that. 

What do you think about an f-pack with a high-flavored apple? Maybe Golden Delicious? And don't forget to do a cool ferment on this in order to retain the volatiles. Like 70-72 degrees.


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## Turock (May 20, 2013)

And yet another thought---retention of flavor doesn't always happen in the primary. Adding flavor right before bottling really bulks up the taste. Like backsweetening with 100% apple concentrate instead of just plain sugar.


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## Downwards (Jun 1, 2013)

I did go for this one- 5 gallons of cider (came with 5 more gallon carboys for aging in!!) and 5 apple juice concentrates. While I was at the store I couldn't resist adding two bottles of blueberry juice to the cart, and then to the fermenter at home. Still required about 6 cups sugar to get to 1.080. pH was about 3.5, used lalvin kv1116. Started day before yesterday and its already 1.020. Fermenting at 67-71 F.


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## saramc (Jun 2, 2013)

Apple with blueberry sounds delish!, and do not hesitate to consider playing with a touch of vanilla when doing tasting trials. Just a smidgen of a good vanilla extract can make apple shine. Something to think about.


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## Arne (Jun 3, 2013)

saramc said:


> Apple with blueberry sounds delish!, and do not hesitate to consider playing with a touch of vanilla when doing tasting trials. Just a smidgen of a good vanilla extract can make apple shine. Something to think about.


 
Totally agree,Sara. The vanilla really makes the apple pop. Arne.


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## Downwards (Jun 3, 2013)

Sadly, I have a great big bag of vanilla beans that need to go into something, but they won't find their way into this wine. The reason is that I'm using this one to experiment with "oaking" with other fruit woods ( http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f74/other-woods-38436/index2.html#post427912 ) and I am afraid that I will complicate things further if I do the vanilla as well. Guess that just means I'll have to make another batch though, because this really sounds great.


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## Turock (Jun 4, 2013)

Go buy a bottle of vodka and put about 8 vanilla beans in it. If the package is unopened, they'll last. But once it's opened, they can dry out. We bought a package of 25 vanilla beans so once opened, I had to make 2 batches of extreact to preserve them. Extract is so easy to use--can even dose just one glass at a time to see how you like it--then you have all the remaining extract to dose a whole carboy if you like it. 

I always have extracts sitting on the kitchen counter.


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## dralarms (Jun 4, 2013)

How long does it take to make the extract?


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## saramc (Jun 4, 2013)

Turock said:


> Go buy a bottle of vodka and put about 8 vanilla beans in it. If the package is unopened, they'll last. But once it's opened, they can dry out



Vacuum sealers work wonders for preserving the freshness of vanilla beans. If you have a wine bottle vacuum sealer like Vacuvin, you can even put the beans in a clean, dry wine bottle. Makes for a pretty presentation on kitchen counter. I buy them in bulk too. Nothing quite like your own vanilla extract (mine age for a year, Evan Williams Honey Reserve makes a killer base.. but three months minimum if in great need) or other extracts for that matter.


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## Downwards (Jun 4, 2013)

These vanilla beans are totally dried out already. A baker friend of mine gave them to me for that reason. They are still really fragrant though, they just break like twigs, and can't really be split. Anyway I think they'll still be as good later as they are now, they are well wrapped and sealed.


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## Turock (Jun 6, 2013)

Yes, Sara I originally put the beans in an empty Everclear bottle and sealed them, but I was still parenoid about them drying out----I feel safer knowing they're in the vodka!!

Sara----Have you ever made fruit extracts? I'm working with a lime right now. Should some sugar be added to it? Any experience in make lime extract?


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## saramc (Jun 6, 2013)

Turock said:


> Yes, Sara I originally put the beans in an empty Everclear bottle and sealed them, but I was still parenoid about them drying out----I feel safer knowing they're in the vodka!!
> 
> Sara----Have you ever made fruit extracts? I'm working with a lime right now. Should some sugar be added to it? Any experience in make lime extract?



Oh yeah, lime extract, done. You can make a dry version or sweet. Peels of limes, no pith, 8 oz jar packed as full as you can, cover with pure grain or vodka, stick in refrig for cold extraction, about 4 weeks. Sweet extract, like a cordial/liqueur, make a 2:1 simple syrup, steep as many pith free lime peels (key lime & regular limes, are they called mexican limes?) as you can in this syrup, allow to cool to room temp, transfer ALL contents to sealed jar, but add pure grain/vodka until you increase volume by half, make sure any solids are immersed. Taste in two weeks. Bump up ACV as needed. You can add lime juice, as you create the simple syrup, strain out pulp before pouring in jar.


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## Turock (Jun 7, 2013)

OK--here's what I did. A fifth of vodka with 6 cut up limes in it and 3 of them zested. The bottle is so packed with limes that I couldn't zest all of them. I started this on May 1st and tasted it the other day and the lime flavor is OK but not as intense as I need it to be. I just now put in the frig per your recommendation. So it's the cold that helps with extraction?

Not trying to make a liqueur--just a very intense extract, altho lime liqueur really sounds great! Thanks Sara--no doubt that you are the master of extracts.


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## saramc (Jun 8, 2013)

Turock said:


> OK--here's what I did. A fifth of vodka with 6 cut up limes in it and 3 of them zested. The bottle is so packed with limes that I couldn't zest all of them. I started this on May 1st and tasted it the other day and the lime flavor is OK but not as intense as I need it to be. I just now put in the frig per your recommendation. So it's the cold that helps with extraction?
> 
> Not trying to make a liqueur--just a very intense extract, altho lime liqueur really sounds great! Thanks Sara--no doubt that you are the master of extracts.



The longer you allow to sit, the better. But re: cold extraction, many essential oils are ice extracted, so the thought process carries over to extract making (at least in my experience). Do not be afraid to replace the first set of lime with new, if you feel it has teached its peak but you still want a bit more oomph. Oh, and I will only use organic for this, due to the preservative they tend to use on citrus (nasty neurotoxin which I personally think no amount of washing truly removes).


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## Turock (Jun 8, 2013)

Oh that's a good idea to replace the limes with more--didn't even think of that. Did not realize that cold helps extract the oils--is that the same with the vanilla extract? Maybe I should throw that one in the frig,also.

Never saw organic limes--guess I'm going with neurotoxin extract.


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## saramc (Jun 8, 2013)

Turock said:


> Oh that's a good idea to replace the limes with more--didn't even think of that. Did not realize that cold helps extract the oils--is that the same with the vanilla extract? Maybe I should throw that one in the frig,also.
> 
> Never saw organic limes--guess I'm going with neurotoxin extract.



S'alright...I use non-organic when I cannot find them. With vanilla I let mine extract at room temp for a year (make a new batch every Halloween), but if your beans are dry it does take more than usual. I have never tried cold extraction with them because I love my vanilla extract as-is.


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## Turock (Jun 9, 2013)

OK Sara---I'll just let the vanilla sit on the counter. Hey-------thanks for all your help!!


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## Downwards (Aug 9, 2013)

I did wind up doing a second batch of this double apple (I call it that because it is apple cider with apple concentrates as must), so that I could go ahead and put vanilla in the blueberry apple. Not regretting that at all! Just cleared enough that I could finally taste it and it's really good! Thanks for the idea saramc.


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## RegionRat (Aug 9, 2013)

I have been following this thread and have to put in my 2¢.

I have been trying to get that crisp apple taste in my final apple wine. Kinda like "Woodchuck Amber Hard Cider"

I came across a web page where the author uses organic apple extract. . You dont need much, just 1/4 tsp per gal when you back sweeten. I ordered some and believe me that is all you need. Strong flavor.


Here is the site I read on making hard cider.

RR


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## Deezil (Aug 10, 2013)

That really crisp apple flavor (I personally cant stand it, but I understand) comes from something like a Granny Smith apple.. Make a wine from Granny Smith apples and I bet you pucker


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## Downwards (Aug 10, 2013)

I do love the Granny Smiths, especially with cheese. But I don't exactly want just that tartness, even though I was looking to get more of that too. In the past some of my apple wines have been just generically wine like- I've had some people think it was a white grape wine where I was looking for real apple flavor. I think more and more fruit was the key. This one, even with the blueberry and vanilla, does taste like apple. That said, I could really go for a Granny Smith wine too one day, sounds like a good idea!


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