# Red Wine



## lawrstin (Feb 21, 2014)

Red wine should always be oaked. Agree or disagree? 


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 22, 2014)

It really depends on your taste, I usually add some level of oak to my reds.


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## lawrstin (Feb 22, 2014)

Must be my vanity but it must be oaked! I'm not sitting on a fence, mostly laying in gutters. All great reds end up oaked. 


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## FTC Wines (Feb 22, 2014)

I agree whole heartedly. Oak ALL my reds, even put oak in some of my Apple Wine! Roy


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 22, 2014)

Oak is really a personal preference, aside from oaking certain types of wine to produce a wine that is similar or even identical to its commercial equivalent, the level of oak really depends on the winemakers personal preference.
I like a certain amount of oak in my red without making it the dominant flavor. 
When you add oak (during fermentation, in the secondary and so on), and what type of oak you add also makes a really big difference. So to answer your question, yes I feel that most reds benefit from oak additions.


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## JohnT (Feb 24, 2014)

"MUST" is a rather strong term. Let me just say that I "PREFER" my reds oaked.


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## bkisel (Feb 24, 2014)

If the kit has it I put it in according to directions and as I'm typing I'm thinking that all the reds I've done have come with either oak powder or chips.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 24, 2014)

Pinots and lighter reds dont need oak.

But I do like oak.


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## kevinlfifer (Feb 24, 2014)

I like oak!!


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## Gwand (Feb 24, 2014)

Some less expensive Barberas and some Langhe Nebbiolos and a portion of Cotes du Rhone and Cotes du Villages never see oak. I personally like at least a bit of oak even in light weight reds.


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## lawrstin (Feb 24, 2014)

DoctorCAD said:


> Pinots and lighter reds dont need oak.
> 
> But I do like oak.




I was under the impression that Pinot Noir favors French oak or a mix of American and French oaks.


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## JohnT (Feb 24, 2014)

lawrstin said:


> I was under the impression that Pinot Noir favors French oak or a mix of American and French oaks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


 

That all depends on your particular tastes. I found that I prefer oaking my pinot (using a type of oak know for good yield of vanillan.


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## Skycrestfarm (Feb 24, 2014)

Its a matter of taste...


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## cmason1957 (Feb 24, 2014)

I pretty much oak all my reds with some type of oak. I fit is a kit, I add the chips or sawdust in the primary, then add some extra to the secondary. I find that the ones in primary don't add much oak flavor, but rather do more for mouthfeel. 

In my whites, I tend not to add anything.


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## Turock (Feb 26, 2014)

I look at this as a stylistic choice. I like things unoaked--AND oaked. I would never consider one or the other to be "wrong" or "right."

After the MLF, we DO oak our Pinot Noir and it's very delightful.


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## tmmii (Feb 26, 2014)

I oak on dry reds. Not on the sweeter ones. 


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## lawrstin (Feb 26, 2014)

The advantages to oaking a red wine are well documented. The improvement to the wines stability in clarity and color, the softening and wood flavors that give smoother and deeper texture when oaked correctly should always have consideration in our decisions to oak or not. 


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## sour_grapes (Feb 27, 2014)

lawrstin said:


> Red wine should always be oaked. Agree or disagree?





lawrstin said:


> The advantages to oaking a red wine are well documented. The improvement to the wines stability in clarity and color, the softening and wood flavors that give smoother and deeper texture when oaked correctly should always have consideration in our decisions to oak or not.



Remind me again what the point of this thread is?


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## peaches9324 (Feb 27, 2014)

The Italian cab I have just done did not include oak in the kit. I had some shredded medium toasted oak on the shelf so I put it in a straining bag and put it in the primary and since the oak was coming out of the bag I tasted the must and thought that would be enough for mouth feel if nothing else. Still had some oak floating that's why I decided to take the bag out of it. This kit has been my lil experiment.. glad I decided to go for it!


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## lawrstin (Feb 27, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Remind me again what the point of this thread is?




My apologies sour grapes if my opinion offended you. 


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## Dino466 (Feb 27, 2014)

First red I made was a Winekitz Gamay Bergamais - no oak - big red cherry flavour . Loved it - I did not drink much red at the time.Since starting to make wine I have gone from a white wine drinker to reds. Now I prefer reds and I prefer some to stronger oak flavour, depends on the wine. And I think taste develop over time  and changes. I think the more red wine you consume (not in one sitting) the more you will lean towards more oak flavouring.


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## olusteebus (Feb 27, 2014)

I have oaked two times if am correct. Both times were a disaster. One red, one white. It seems to me, never oak a wine you want to drink within a year. On the white, I may have a different problem that I don't know about. I should not have but I oaked a Coastal White.


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## peaches9324 (Feb 27, 2014)

Bergamais is a great intro to red wines and as far as oaking whites I found the timing is of essence. I oaked one of my pear wine and it sucked! If I had racked it earlier off the oak it would of been good.


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## GreginND (Feb 27, 2014)

lawrstin said:


> My apologies sour grapes if my opinion offended you.



I don't think sour grapes was offended. I also wonder what you intended with this thread. I am not offended, just confused. Let me explain why.

You posted saying red wine should be oaked then asked if people agree or not. After only one response you state rather emphatically that all red wine must be oaked. Then you post talking about how the characteristics of the oak on color, stability and clarity should be considered when making the decision to oak, implying that not all red wine should be oaked? That it is still a decision to be decided based on a number of factors? And, if you are so emphatic and "vain" as you say about this topic, why do you want to hear others' opinions? So, I understand why sour grapes may have asked what the purpose of the post was.

But, back to your original premise - "all red wines must be oaked":

Since you asked if we agree or disagree, I will offer my opinion.

I disagree! It depends on the grape, the style and the vintage. Some red grapes, such as Baltica, are best unoaked to allow the young bright cherry flavors to shine. A Marquette, on the other hand, will generally always benefit from oak.

So, I disagree because there are no general rules that will apply to every red grape.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 27, 2014)

Yes, Greg correctly intuited my take, and articulated it in a way I could not. That is exactly what I meant!


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## lawrstin (Feb 27, 2014)

GreginND said:


> I don't think sour grapes was offended. I also wonder what you intended with this thread. I am not offended, just confused. Let me explain why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







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## lawrstin (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm certainly passionate that any red should be oaked. I would love to hear other than it's a personal taste preference against oak. Isn't everything us little winemakers do a personal preference?

Certainly, if one is to make wine he must consider why we add oak or do not add oak. The fascinating history behind how oak came to be incorporated in wine making was no accident. 

Since there is so much we really still don't understand about oaking six hundred years later since it's inception I consider it's a valid question. 

Peace and love.


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## GreginND (Feb 27, 2014)

Well, unfortunately it is even more complicated. When you say "oak", do you mean barrel aged? If it is not barrel aged then you do not get the micro oxygenation and concentration due to evaporation. You are absolutely correct that we still don't have a full understanding of the factors that influence 'oaring'.

And I don't know that it is _all_ about personal taste. A balanced wine is better than an unbalanced wine. This also has to do with oak or not, oxygenation or not, regardless of my personal taste. Some grapes may become less balanced with oak treatment.


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## botigol (Feb 27, 2014)

Additionally, there is the topic of how much oak. I like and expect oak in certain wines, but I have tasted far too much chateau plywood in the last couple of decades. That said, there are plenty of people who like that profile, because they keep producing it.

So, I disagree and even if we find common ground on which to agree, we may disagree on the details.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 27, 2014)

lawrstin said:


> The fascinating history behind how oak came to be incorporated in wine making was no accident.



Wait! I am confused. I thought that the marriage of oak and wine _*was*_ an accident, a happy accident. What is the history that you refer to? (This is an honest question.)



> Peace and love.



Ditto. Served with wine.


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## lawrstin (Feb 27, 2014)

Oak Barrels were not an accident but a necessity and the only practical means of transporting wine for distribution back in the day. 


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## sour_grapes (Feb 28, 2014)

lawrstin said:


> Oak Barrels were not an accident but a necessity and the only practical means of transporting wine for distribution back in the day.



Okay, thanks. That was my understanding, too. It's just that I filed that under "accident." (I mean, what if it had happened that cedar trees made the best barrels?)

I suppose I also file "retsina" under happy accident.


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## lawrstin (Feb 28, 2014)

There was no MTV or reality TV so great wise men actually thought the process through (joke).


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## lawrstin (Feb 28, 2014)

Another attribute of oaking is tannins. The word tannin origin is tanna from high German and it does translate in English to mean "oak". 

Tannins + Health = Good. 

and

Tannins make age worthy wines.


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## terroirdejeroir (Feb 28, 2014)

I have been reluctant to chime in here because my experience level is just kind of middlin'. My first question is: are you referring to oaking after primary fermentation only or do you mean any oak whatsoever? 

I have produced wines with no oak beyond the primary and I generally like them. I have produced rather heavily oaked wines and I generally like them too. However, I really don't like what I would refer to as oak flavor. In other words, I don't want the wine to taste at all like wood. That being said, I do love the flavor profile that oak brings to the wine once the oakiness has aged out. 

I concur with the earlier poster that I wouldn't want to oak an early drinker. It seems to me that oaked wine takes a minimum of nine months to be drinkable and sometimes much longer.


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## david77daniel (Mar 2, 2014)

Hi !

From what I know ... when it comes to Oak .... you should always ask yourself how much tannin do you really want . 

For example a soft wine like Pinot Noir doesn't really enjoy Oak that much . Pinot Noir is wine that is well produced in Germany where the temperature is really low ... so Pinot Noir is really soft and with great flavors and aromas . 

On the other hand you can have a wine like Cabernet ... where you should always ask yourself ... How much oak do I want , this wine already has lots of tannin , so especially if you have a new barrel , you should always pose yourself that question !!


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## david77daniel (Mar 2, 2014)

There are 2 ways of making Oak barrels - the french way (aka European way) , and the American way .

The French did not make barrels out of their oaks until the wood did not stay for about 3 years outside so the sun and the rain would change it, so most of the tannin would wash away . After that the oak was burned so it would give a toasty aroma . 

The Americans handled differently the oak , they did not wait that long .... so their oak makes a wine too coarse , because most of the tannin is still in the wood . 

They also use steam instead of fire .... so it doesn't have that nice aroma of toast ... an aroma that Chardonnay loves very much . 

American Chardonnay is too oaky ... a lot of people would say !! 

From what I know Americans started to use the European way of making barrels !!


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## joshjacobsen (Mar 6, 2017)

Hi all,

Just discovered Winemaking Talk, very helpful content as I'm new to winemaking so thanks for everyone's contributions. 

I see mention of Bergamais in this forum so wanted to piggyback w/ a question I had, specifically - does anyone know what it means? I gather that it's a Gamay but I'm puzzled as to why it isn't called that as I can't find any information on Bergamais (ie it it a region, a producer, a language translation)? Asking simply because I'd like to know what I'm buying if I go this route as it'd seemingly be easy to purchase a kit or concentrate thinking it's one thing only to find out it's another.

Thanks!


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## StBlGT (Mar 6, 2017)

Yes, it is a gamay, and bergamais is a wine style named from the beaujolais region of france.

Edit: wow, this is an old thread...


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## joshjacobsen (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks, hadn't even realized how old this thread was .


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## 4score (Mar 7, 2017)

Gwand said:


> Some less expensive Barberas and some Langhe Nebbiolos and a portion of Cotes du Rhone and Cotes du Villages never see oak. I personally like at least a bit of oak even in light weight reds.



I agree. Generally, the lighter reds don't need oak. When I was in France on a trip to the Rhone region, they talked a lot about limiting the oak and said the US uses "too much oak" when it's not necessary.

I happen to like a little oak so I did my 60 gallons of barbera in new American oak (barrel) for 9 months. Just enough to add some oak flavor and nose without stepping too much on top of the bright red fruit.

I have learned that a 5-gallon carboy with one little oak stave (stick or spiral) REALLY adds oak fast. I mean it was deceptive! A couple months of that may be all you need.


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