# When to Press when Co-inoculating?



## jsbeckton (May 7, 2019)

Fermentation started Saturday and MLB was pitched on Monday. The MoreWine manual suggests pressing at 0Brix but also not starting MLB until after the press.

For those that co-inoculate, do you still press at 0Brix or do you wait for MLF to be complete first? Seems like waiting going be an issue if it takes awhile.


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## CDrew (May 7, 2019)

I've co-inoculated the last 2 years and just press when it's time-near zero brix. I'm sure by then the MLF bacterial colony is established and they will survive the press just fine.


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## GreginND (May 7, 2019)

I agree. Just proceed as normal. Press when you normally press. Your ML bacterial will be just fine. I prefer co-innoculation 24-48 hours after pitching the yeast. I find MLF finishes quicker and I can get the wines protected with SO2 sooner.


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## Donz (May 7, 2019)

I pitch 24 hours after yeast and press at 0brix. The MLF always continues until complete.

Just don't sulfite too soon, give it some time to complete.


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## Boatboy24 (May 7, 2019)

Yep. As others have said: press on the 'normal' schedule. Just no sulfite until MLF is cone.


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## sdelli (May 7, 2019)

I have always done separate but may give it a try in the future. What bacteria is your best choice in this method?


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## Donz (May 9, 2019)

VP41 all the way.


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## cmason1957 (May 9, 2019)

sdelli said:


> I have always done separate but may give it a try in the future. What bacteria is your best choice in this method?



I don't think the choice of bacteria matters all that much if co-innoculating or not.


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## Donz (May 9, 2019)

Some are better workhorses than others.


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## CDrew (May 10, 2019)

Donz said:


> VP41 all the way.



I may try that this year. The last 2 years I've had very good no drama results with CH16, but I see the VP41 mentioned a lot. Anyone done a head to head comparison?


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## sdelli (May 10, 2019)

One problem I see is it will cost more to add to the must vs finished wine. A pack of VP-41 does 66 gal.


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## Johnd (May 10, 2019)

sdelli said:


> One problem I see is it will cost more to add to the must vs finished wine. A pack of VP-41 does 66 gal.



It’ll do 66 gallons of finished wine, which means must of around 100 gallons. Most things that are added to must are based upon your anticipated volume of finished wine. After all, most of these additions can’t be dissolved into solids like skins, seeds, suspended sediments, etc., only into the liquid juice / wine.


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## jsbeckton (May 10, 2019)

Or, I pressed this morning at just under 0 brix (SG=0.997) and had a few questions.

I netted 8.5g of free pour and about 1g of pressed wine. I was only expecting about 7g total for the 108# so is this unusual?

I understand that I am supposed to rack off the gross lees in a day or 2 so how worried do I need to be about air before then? Currently just sitting in buckets with lids on loose. I have 7g carboy that I was going to use but need to rethink with this new net so may need to pick up a 3g carboy or something.

Since I got a really good net volume should I still keep the ~1g of pressed wine if it means having to get another carboy or something? I’ve read it’s not as good as free pour but also that it add complexity so not sure what to do.

Thanks!


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## CDrew (May 10, 2019)

So you got a good yield. This is not an exact science. Congrats.

No way in heck I'd discard your press wine. Get ahold of yourself!

I'd get in carboys pronto, and If it were me, with just 10 gallons of wine I'd mix it all together. You're going to need more carboys anyway, so go buy a couple of 3s, and a couple more 6s. Maybe some 1 gallons too. That will simplify your life when racking. Rack as soon as you can-24 hours is good. 48 is OK too. Usually other things dictate your pace.


Edit-And while you have 9.5 gallons now, It's going to be more like 8-8.5 gallons after you rack off the lees. But it sounds like your fermentation went very well. You started Saturday and pressed on Friday at 0 brix. That's perfect timing wise. Did you taste it yet? It's probably better than you think!


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## Johnd (May 10, 2019)

No need to worry about air space just yet, you can pinch down on it when you leave the gross lees behind in a few days. In addition to 6's, I keep a few three gallon carboys, one gallon and 1/2 gallon glass jugs around, and even fill bottles to keep from wasting too much in the early stages. As MLF completes, gas dissipates, sulfite gets added, you'll be racking off of sediment another time or two and can continue to consolidate your wine into fewer and fewer vessels. Keep the free run apart from the press if you like, or combine them, but definitely don't toss it.


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## mainshipfred (May 10, 2019)

I agree with everyone else about needing different size vessels. I have 7, 6.5, 6, 5, 3, 1, 3/4, 1/2, 750ml, 500ml and 373ml and use everyone of them. But I have to say my favorite purchase was the argon set up. I don't rely on it long term but in a pinch it's a time saver.


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## jsbeckton (May 10, 2019)

Yup. I brew beer also so already have a decent supply: 7,7,6.5,6,6,6,6,5,1,1. 0.5,0.5

But no 3!

What’s the argon setup? I have a C02 system but don’t typically rely on purging with gas and instead try to top everything up.


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## mainshipfred (May 10, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Yup. I brew beer also so already have a decent supply: 7,7,6.5,6,6,6,6,5,1,1. 0.5,0.5
> 
> But no 3!
> 
> What’s the argon setup? I have a C02 system but don’t typically rely on purging with gas and instead try to top everything up.



As I mentioned I don't rely on it either but in a pinch when you chose the wrong size carboy and don't feel to transfer to the proper size a shot of argon is the ticket. I suppose you could use CO2 as well and I agree topping up is the only sure fire solution.


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## CDrew (May 10, 2019)

Yes-If you have a Co2 set up that works as well as argon.

But the ideal method is to have full containers with minimal head space.

I'll bet a 7 gallon and a 1 gallon will do it when you rack off the lees, and if there's any left, even a wine bottle works fine, and will eventually be your "topping" wine.

So I did a quick calc of my losses to date after 3 rackings, for what you might expect going forward.

For Syrah, my losses have totaled totaled 13% after the initial press of 23 gallons

For Primitivo losses were 15.2% of my initial press of 36 gallons. I had a lot of gross lees with this, not sure why.

I don't know if this is normal, but It's what I got. I'd be curious to hear your final tally.


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## jsbeckton (May 10, 2019)

CDrew said:


> So I did a quick calc of my losses to date after 3 rackings, for what you might expect going forward.
> 
> For Syrah, my losses have totaled totaled 13% after the initial press of 23 gallons
> 
> ...



I started with about 11.5 gal so lost about 18% during the press. I could probably have pressed a lot more than 1 gal but was hesitant to go too far since it was my first press. Also, I have a bit of a side experiment going on where I also bought a 6 gal juice bucket of the same varietal and added that to the pressed skins. Therefore nothing is really lost just yet.


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## sdelli (May 11, 2019)

I am attending the WineMakers Magazine convention next week. One of the classes I am taking is advanced MLF. Be an interesting topic to bring up co-inoculation.


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## mainshipfred (May 11, 2019)

sdelli said:


> I am attending the WineMakers Magazine convention next week. One of the classes I am taking is advanced MLF. Be an interesting topic to bring up co-inoculation.



Make sure you share it with us. Even though the vast majority swear by it I'm still not sold.


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## mainshipfred (May 22, 2019)

sdelli said:


> I am attending the WineMakers Magazine convention next week. One of the classes I am taking is advanced MLF. Be an interesting topic to bring up co-inoculation.



Did you make it to the seminar?


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## sdelli (May 30, 2019)

I did. Interesting change being in Michigan this year. Entered 3 wines and got awards on 2 of them. I think the third is still to young. I will wait a couple years and enter it again to see....


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## mainshipfred (May 30, 2019)

sdelli said:


> I did. Interesting change being in Michigan this year. Entered 3 wines and got awards on 2 of them. I think the third is still to young. I will wait a couple years and enter it again to see....



Congrats! Did co-inoculation come up?


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## knockabout (Jun 2, 2019)

I’ve been looking at attending the conference but if I add on the pre and post workshops it’s not in the budget. Mind if I ask how helpful the conference was to you?
Thanks


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