# Battonage...?



## Deezil (Oct 28, 2011)

I think it was Joeswine who mentioned this in one of his threads.. Possibly the almond wine thread? Not sure at the moment.. 

I had heard of it before, looked into it and im interested in how it works.. Any information from some of you more technical peeps with maybe some pdf's or something..? 

Would be greatly appreciated, i would like to try it with my current blackberry wine if it attributes to mouthfeel and smoothness like im thinking.. But i would have to do it like.. Yesterday


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## Deezil (Oct 30, 2011)

Anyone with experience in it at all, wanna share?


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## Racer (Oct 30, 2011)

I usually do battonage with chardonay to give it more mouth feel. The biggest thing I try to make sure of is that the wine gets racked off of the gross lees after primary fermentation is complete. Once that is done I then just try to remember to gently stir the fine lees back into suspension on a simple to remember schedule. Some other key things to watch out for are. Don't scrap the yeast off the bottom with your stirring tool. You want only the slow break down of the yeast to occur. Do taste and smell the wine on a regular schedule too. Once I start to smell more of a yeasty component in the wine is the time to rack off of the fine lees and call it quits. For my preferences I usually do battonage for up to 6 months. I'm sure others will chime in and give their schedules and lengths of time they prefer to use too.


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## djrockinsteve (Oct 30, 2011)

Would you avoid the use of a fining agent during this time and allow it to clear naturally?


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## Racer (Oct 30, 2011)

Yes, I don't do any fining or clearing until after I'm done with battonage. I do add So2 after primary fermentation is complete though(if its a white wine). If its a red wine it needs to remain SO2 free until after MLF is complete. If you do try a longer time on battonage like I do you might find that the wine will end up dropping clear for you from having had the lees stirred up and settled so many times.


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## robie (Oct 31, 2011)

Batonnage means to stir. I assume you are talking about surlies (lees aging) and batonnage (stirring) ala - aging on the lees and stirring.

The process is not recommend for most red wines, just the lighter ones like Pinot Noirs. Of course there are always, always exceptions.

Your wine is a berry wine. Have you researched to determine if aging on the lees and stirring is recommended for such a wine? I would be surprised if it is recommended, but I honestly can't say one way or the other. 

Lees aging gives a wine a nutty, yeastie taste, like what you have with many nice champagnes. Think about what yeastie, nutty champagne tastes like and make sure that is something you are truly after. It goes well with chardonnay, but not everyone likes chard aged on the lees.

Just make sure the gross lees have been racked off completely. All you want in the lees is possibly some of the very fine lees, but mostly the yeast. Go ahead and add the Kmeta for stabilizing at the usual time.

There are several schools of thought about surlies/batonnage. Some don't want any stirring; some stir about once a week. If you are not going to stir, you will need to age on the lees for a much longer time to get good results.

Good luck and let us know how it all turns out.


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## robie (Oct 31, 2011)

One more thing, as Racer said, it is very important that you taste and smell the wine regularly. If it should start taking on a bad smell, rack the wine immediately to stop the surlies process.

To determine the level of the nutty, yeastie taste you want, each time you get ready to stir, just before stirring, taste and smell the wine, rather than waiting to taste after the wine is stirred. Each time you taste before stirring, the wine should take on more of the yeastie, nutty taste than before.

You would not do any fining until after the lees aging process is finished. As Racer said, you might not need to fine. If a white, you might still want to filter just before bottling.

(I guess another good point of reference for the taste might be to ask yourself if you like bread, fresh bread, that has a very heavy yeast taste. Personally, I do, but not everyone does.)


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## djrockinsteve (Oct 31, 2011)

This is similar to keeping the lees in a champagne bottle for years before degorging it. The sediment and yeast give champagne it's flavor. I leave mine in the bottle a year.


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## robie (Oct 31, 2011)

djrockinsteve said:


> This is similar to keeping the lees in a champagne bottle for years before degorging it. The sediment and yeast give champagne it's flavor. I leave mine in the bottle a year.



Yes, very similar. I figure that if one doesn't like Champagne, one wouldn't like anything else aged on the lees. 

I do like Champagne and I do like Chardonnays aged on the lees. I just like the difference in character that aging on the lees gives a nice chard. I haven't tried it on a Pinot Noir, but would like to one day. It just doesn't work well at all on something like a Cab. The Cab will start smelling and tasting rotten I think.


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## shoebiedoo (Nov 10, 2011)

Racer said:


> Don't scrap the yeast off the bottom with your stirring tool. You want only the slow break down of the yeast to occur.



Everything I read lead to doing this? Although I've only started the process. Why don't you want to scrape the Yeast off the Bottom? what do you dir then? stir just above the lees?

Steve


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## robie (Nov 10, 2011)

shoebiedoo said:


> Everything I read lead to doing this? Although I've only started the process. Why don't you want to scrape the Yeast off the Bottom? what do you dir then? stir just above the lees?
> 
> Steve



There are several schools of thought about surlies/batonnage.

One is to not do batonnage (French for stir) at all and just let the wine set on the dead yeast for several years. Surlies is French for aging on the lees. This thought is to do surlies, but no batonnage.

Another is to stir the lees up into the wine periodically. I have never heard of stirring but not stirring the yeast up off the bottom. The whole idea of batonnage is to get the dead yeast back into suspension. It is the dead, decaying yeast, not the grape remains, mingling with the wine that actually creates that biscuity, nutty, yeasty flavor and adds the extra mouth-feel and smoothness to the wine. It happens as the cell walls break down and get distributed into the wine.

If I were not going to stir up the yeast, I wouldn't even bother with the surlies process unless you intend to leave it for well over a year.


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## roblloyd (Nov 11, 2011)

I was just reading about this tonight in my wine making book. I also was going to give it a try on my chardonnay. I just started MLF on it tonight, along with a Merlot. 

You beat me to asking about this!


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## djrockinsteve (Nov 11, 2011)

Rob I have read that doing that to Chardonnay can really improve the the taste. Maybe I'll try that next year.


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## robie (Nov 11, 2011)

roblloyd said:


> I was just reading about this tonight in my wine making book. I also was going to give it a try on my chardonnay. I just started MLF on it tonight, along with a Merlot.
> 
> You beat me to asking about this!



Normally you wouldn't want to do surlies/battonnage on your Merlot. The buttery flavor doesn't typically go well with reds. Pinot Noir is an exception.

This process, along with oaking, is what gives some chards that buttery flavor.
You can still do it on your Chardonnay if you haven't racked off the yeast. I don't know your particular procedure for Chardonnay MLF. If yeast are still present, after MLF, don't rack; add stabilizing Kmeta; stir up really well once a week. You will need to do this lees aging and stirring for at least a couple of months to get appreciable results. Three months is good. 

After taste is where you want it; proceed as normal and clear with or without fining.


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## robie (Nov 11, 2011)

djrockinsteve said:


> Rob I have read that doing that to Chardonnay can really improve the the taste. Maybe I'll try that next year.



The buttery taste it gives a Chardonnay is really nice. However, you also need to enjoy the biscuity, nutty, yeasty taste, which you typically get from a Champagne, because that is also the flavor you will get.

I am trying to think of a commercial Chard as an example that has gone through surlies/batonnage, but I can't off hand. When you taste one, you will recognize it right away.


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## robie (Nov 11, 2011)

One thing I forgot to mention about surlie is that different yeast strains give slightly different results. D47 is noted for its very positive effects with surlie and its temperature range (58 to 69F) is much lower than most yeast. This is an advantage now that winter is upon us, so heating up the must is not an issue.


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