# Sanitizing Bottles What do you use (Poll)



## Mac60 (Aug 28, 2020)

Looking for some input on what everyone uses to sanitize their bottles before bottling
SO2 or Star san


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## Chuck E (Aug 28, 2020)

I used to use SO2, but the vapors get to me if I do a lot of bottles. So I switched to StarSan. 
I just bought the Fast Wash system from the folks who make Fast Racks. This makes short work out of sanitizing bottles.


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## Mac60 (Aug 28, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> I used to use SO2, but the vapors get to me if I do a lot of bottles. So I switched to StarSan.
> I just bought the Fast Wash system from the folks who make Fast Racks. This makes short work out of sanitizing bottles.


Thanks Chuck,
I made a case sanitizer with pump and 5 spout bottle filler to use this year. We are filling 850 next week, and plans for the season are going to be 1000 we needed some improvement in the process. I hope this helps cut the production time, last year it took 3 of us 15 hours.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 28, 2020)

I use 80% new bottles and the other 20% are my used bottles. The new ones I don't do anything with. The used I soak them in oxyclean over night to remove the labels, rinse and place them back in a box. At bottling I treat them like new bottles. Probably get some grief over this.


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## Mac60 (Aug 28, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I use 80% new bottles and the other 20% are my used bottles. The new ones I don't do anything with. The used I soak them in oxyclean over night to remove the labels, rinse and place them back in a box. At bottling I treat them like new bottles. Probably get some grief over this.


We use about 30% new and 70% is from last years wine without labels, I have always sanitized both used and new bottles might be overkill but its become part of the process its going to be allot faster now we can do 12 bottles at a time.


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## bstnh1 (Aug 29, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I use 80% new bottles and the other 20% are my used bottles. The new ones I don't do anything with. The used I soak them in oxyclean over night to remove the labels, rinse and place them back in a box. At bottling I treat them like new bottles. Probably get some grief over this.


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## bstnh1 (Aug 29, 2020)

I'm at the point where the only bottles I use now are those that I filled before. I rinse them with hot water after we've emptied them, let them dry and store them. When I'm ready to bottle, I wash them with OneStep or Easy Clean; sanititze with K-Meta, drip-dry a couple of minutes and bottle.


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## JohnBurns (Aug 29, 2020)

To sanitize I use 50/50 SO2 and water morning of bottle filling and let them drain upside down


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## bstnh1 (Aug 29, 2020)

JohnBurns said:


> To sanitize I use 50/50 SO2 and water morning of bottle filling and let them drain upside down



Why 50/50??? I assume you mean 50% water, 50% SO2 solution.


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## JohnBurns (Aug 29, 2020)

yes 50% water and 50% kmeta. I wash bottles evening before and drip dry upside down in wine cases. Morning of bottle filling I make fresh SO2 -1 rounded TBSP to 1/2 gallon water then 50/50 to bottle sulphiter. Two squirts to each bottle and let drip again upside down in wine cases until filling.


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## bstnh1 (Aug 29, 2020)

That seems like a pretty weak sanitizer. Its roughly 1 T per gallon after you dilute it 50/50. The standard K-Meta mix is 3 T to a gallon of water. I sanitize bottles and everything else with the full strength mix.


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## Sailor323 (Aug 30, 2020)

I use meta, 2 oz per US gallon


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## jvbutter (Aug 30, 2020)

JohnBurns said:


> yes 50% water and 50% kmeta. I wash bottles evening before and drip dry upside down in wine cases. Morning of bottle filling I make fresh SO2 -1 rounded TBSP to 1/2 gallon water then 50/50 to bottle sulphiter. Two squirts to each bottle and let drip again upside down in wine cases until filling.


50 kmeta / 50 water... Ok, so water is from the tap... 50 kmeta? whats your mixture rate. I really don't think its 1c kmeta dry powder and 1 cup water. Are you talking about a typical 1/4t - 5g water sanitizing solution? or a 1T - 1 gal water cleaning solution


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## Mike Parisi (Aug 30, 2020)

Might be overkill, but better safe than sorry, right?

Whether the bottles are new or ones that have been used and rinsed, I submerge them a few at a time in a bucket with 3 gallons of Easy Clean solution, let the bottles fill, then pour it back out. Then I move them to the bucket with 5 gallons of Star-San solution. Let them fill, then drain and invert them in the box with a layer of paper towels on the bottom. I do this the day I am going to bottle the wine.


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## bstnh1 (Aug 30, 2020)

Mike Parisi said:


> Might be overkill, but better safe than sorry, right?
> 
> Whether the bottles are new or ones that have been used and rinsed, I submerge them a few at a time in a bucket with 3 gallons of Easy Clean solution, let the bottles fill, then pour it back out. Then I move them to the bucket with 5 gallons of Star-San solution. Let them fill, then drain and invert them in the box with a layer of paper towels on the bottom. I do this the day I am going to bottle the wine.



Nope! I don't see that as overkill at all. Sounds like good sanitizing practice to me!!


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## Yooper🍷 (Aug 30, 2020)

I use one step. Never have had a problem


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## JohnBurns (Aug 31, 2020)

bstnh1 said:


> That seems like a pretty weak sanitizer. Its roughly 1 T per gallon after you dilute it 50/50. The standard K-Meta mix is 3 T to a gallon of water. I sanitize bottles and everything else with the full strength mix.


thanks. I might switch to full strength. I just don't want to detect it in the wine.


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## bstnh1 (Aug 31, 2020)

From an art


JohnBurns said:


> thanks. I might switch to full strength. I just don't want to detect it in the wine.



From an article by Tim Vandergrift: "When sulphiting the inside of bottles it isn’t necessary to rinse the sulphite solution away with water. After draining upside down for as little as five seconds the amount of sulphite retained in the bottle will only increase the free sulphite content of the added wine by a little over 1 part per million. You can rinse if you want to, but it won’t make any difference and takes extra time."


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## DizzyIzzy (Aug 31, 2020)

I sanitize with 2 oz. K-meta to one gallon of water...................Dizzy


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## RichardC (Aug 31, 2020)

I only use SO2 because it's what I got but, it screws bad with my asthma so as soon as I can buy StarSan at a reasonable price, I'll get some!


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## CDrew (Aug 31, 2020)

Here's my take. I use StarSan for virtually every action in the winemaking process except the bottle sterilization. It just seems that residual StarSan is slippery and I don't want slippery at bottling, and the tiny amount of additional sulfite seems like a benefit more than anything else.

The fumes are an issue and I bottle in the garage with the door open and fan on for just that reason.

2T KMBS, 1T Citric acid. Too easy.


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## JohnBurns (Aug 31, 2020)

bstnh1 said:


> From an art
> 
> 
> From an article by Tim Vandergrift: "When sulphiting the inside of bottles it isn’t necessary to rinse the sulphite solution away with water. After draining upside down for as little as five seconds the amount of sulphite retained in the bottle will only increase the free sulphite content of the added wine by a little over 1 part per million. You can rinse if you want to, but it won’t make any difference and takes extra time."


Excellent! Thanks


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## Old Corker (Aug 31, 2020)

I use the 2oz. Kmeta/Gal. Water to sanitize just about everything that touches the wine. I do rinse out the bottles afterward bc I don't want any more in the wine than is needed. I'm only bottling one or two batches at a time so it's not a deal. I'm thinking about getting a second of those sanitizer squirter thingies so I can have one for sanitizing an one for rinsing. 

If there is one thing I might be over killing on its washing the bottles. I mix up a gal of Easy Clean (One Step) pour some in each bottle then run a bottle scrubber on a drill. I just like to start with a sparkling clean bottle inside and out.


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## Mac60 (Aug 31, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Here's my take. I use StarSan for virtually every action in the winemaking process except the bottle sterilization. It just seems that residual StarSan is slippery and I don't want slippery at bottling, and the tiny amount of additional sulfite seems like a benefit more than anything else.


Thank you CDrew
That's exactly what I have been thinking, I use StarSan, but I was thinking about switching..
THANKS FOR ALL YOU AWESOME RESPONSES.
This is truly an amazing resource.
MAC,


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## Dan M (Feb 21, 2021)

I use Star San for sanitizing everything. The first time I went to a local wine supply store, I was advised to use Star San instead of Meta. I make a spray bottle bottle full with about 1/16 oz of Star San. I use One Step to clean the bottles, spray the inside with a bottle rinser and hang them on a bottle tree. They are usually still wet when I bottle. I've only been doing this for a year but haven't had any problems.


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## TurkeyHollow (Feb 22, 2021)

We use both. Star San on the brewery side and SO2 on the winery side.


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## thunderwagn (Feb 22, 2021)

As a long time homebrewer (beer) I use Star San for sanitizing all my equipment. I'm curious, what the downside is to using Star San to sanitize wine bottles, if any?


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## JustJoe (Feb 22, 2021)

I use starsan on everything for both wine and beer making.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 22, 2021)

I am on the both side also. SO2 for the wine and Star San for the beer. I think if beer could tolerate the SO2, I would only use that.


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## Donz (Feb 22, 2021)

Jet bottle washer fitting on the cellar sink tap with hot water, that is it. Then placed upside down in wine boxes. I have never had a problem.


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## Sailor323 (Feb 22, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I am on the both side also. SO2 for the wine and Star San for the beer. I think if beer could tolerate the SO2, I would only use that.


I use SO2 to sanitize my beer bottles, no problem


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## Sailor323 (Feb 22, 2021)

Does anyone now the shelf life on StarSan after it has been mixed?


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## CDrew (Feb 22, 2021)

Sailor323 said:


> Does anyone now the shelf life on StarSan after it has been mixed?



It depends on the purity of the water. If you used distilled, it last months. If you use tap water, it tends to turn cloudy in a week or two. It may still be Ok but I discard at that point. I believe there is a pH threshold you can measure but I don't recall what it is.


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## bstnh1 (Feb 23, 2021)

K-meta ( 3 Tbls. / gal. plus citric acid) in a bottle rinser. I use it for all my sanitizing.


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## sluff (Feb 23, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> K-meta ( 3 Tbls. / gal. plus citric acid) in a bottle rinser. I use it for all my sanitizing.


Do you rinse before bottling? Thanks!


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## RonObvious (Feb 23, 2021)

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I swear I can taste StarSan, even when mixed at the proper ratio and even when fully drained. I stopped using it a long time ago for that reason. I use sodium percarbonate for heavy duty disinfecting, but it's VERY alkaline and oxidizing, so I follow it up with a rinse of citric acid. For general sanitizing, I use KMETA with citric acid.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 23, 2021)

sluff said:


> Do you rinse before bottling? Thanks!


I don't. I clean the bottles, inspect them visually for "stuff", rinse with K-meta, and drain on a bottle tree. The dry bottles go neck down in clean cases (if a case looks ratty or the cardboard at the bottom doesn't pass visual inspection, I recycle the case).

At bottling time, each bottle is visually inspected again before filling.

The bottles are clean, there is nothing inside anything can grow on, and nothing can get in. A lot of commercial wineries take bottles from the vendor and place them on the bottling line, no extra steps.


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## Bliorg (Feb 23, 2021)

I fill a bucket with StarSan at the recommended rate (1 oz/5 gal), submerge the bottles probably about 8 at a time, let them sit in the solution submerged for a few minutes, dump them back into the bucket and let them drain. And new bottles are dirty, contaminated with cardboard dust and anything that goes into cardboard (which is not a hygenic, sanitary product). They need to be sanitized.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 23, 2021)

It appears that thousands of successful commercial wineries are doing it wrong.


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## 7munkee (Feb 23, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I use 80% new bottles and the other 20% are my used bottles. The new ones I don't do anything with. The used I soak them in oxyclean over night to remove the labels, rinse and place them back in a box. At bottling I treat them like new bottles. Probably get some grief over this.


Glad to see I'm not the only one who uses Oxyclean. In my dirty carboys especially.


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## dralarms (Feb 23, 2021)

I mix 3 tablespoons of kmeta and 3 tablespoons of citric acid in a gallon jug. Was told the critic acid reduces bottle shock.


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## Bossbaby (Feb 23, 2021)

7munkee said:


> Glad to see I'm not the only one who uses Oxyclean. In my dirty carboys especially.


oxyclean does a great job on stains, but we dont know about sanitizing. so I just go SO2 to be safe.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 23, 2021)

dralarms said:


> I mix 3 tablespoons of kmeta and 3 tablespoons of citric acid in a gallon jug. Was told the critic acid reduces bottle shock.


maybe it’s me—- but i’ve never noticed this mysterious bottle shock i always read about. maybe my palate is not distinguished enough to notice. I will purposely open a bottle soon after bottling in an attempt to detect it. 

BTW- as far as bottle prep goes— i would rinse w/ hot water, sanitize w kmeta, dry on tree, then have to wipe clean the kmeta residue. with multiple cases and working solo this got to be too much. i now fill right from box. felt guilty the 1st time i did it. —— i got over it.


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## CDrew (Feb 23, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> maybe it’s me—- but i’ve never noticed this mysterious bottle shock i always read about. maybe my palate is not distinguished enough to notice. I will purposely open a bottle soon after bottling in an attempt to detect it.
> 
> BTW- as far as bottle prep goes— i would rinse w/ hot water, sanitize w kmeta, dry on tree, then have to wipe clean the kmeta residue. with multiple cases and working solo this got to be too much. i now fill right from box. felt guilty the 1st time i did it. —— i got over it.





You may be right about the "bottle shock" but I religiously wait at least 4 weeks before even tasting. UC Davis should employ some science here.

Bottling by yourself is tough. Even a little bit of help moving or sanitizing bottles, speeds things up tremendously.

Regarding Oxi-clean and one-step, lets get real. They are excellent cleaners. Maybe that's enough. But they are not sanitizers, and that's what you need.



dralarms said:


> I mix 3 tablespoons of kmeta and 3 tablespoons of citric acid in a gallon jug. Was told the critic acid reduces bottle shock.



I do not think that citric acid has any other role to play other than to lower the pH and make the sulfite solution more effective. And in fact, tartaric acid has the same effect, just not quite as efficiently. But it's more appropriate in wine. But 3 tablespoons of citric acid is way more than you need. Just measure the pH. Then you know where you are.


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## dralarms (Feb 24, 2021)

CDrew said:


> Bottling by yourself is tough. Even a little bit of help moving or sanitizing bottles, speeds things up tremendously.


I disagree. I bottle all my own alone and have done it for years.


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## bstnh1 (Feb 24, 2021)

sluff said:


> Do you rinse before bottling? Thanks!


If you mean do I rinse the K-meta from the bottles, NO! I sanitize them and put them on a bottle tree. I bottle within a few minutes of sanitizing.


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## bstnh1 (Feb 24, 2021)

dralarms said:


> I disagree. I bottle all my own alone and have done it for years.


I have always bottled alone too. It's not an issue.


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## dralarms (Feb 24, 2021)

CDrew said:


> You may be right about the "bottle shock" but I religiously wait at least 4 weeks before even tasting. UC Davis should employ some science here.
> 
> Bottling by yourself is tough. Even a little bit of help moving or sanitizing bottles, speeds things up tremendously.
> 
> ...


I was told to use equal parts of kmeta and citric acid. And there’s very little left to change the ph.


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## bstnh1 (Feb 24, 2021)

I find Oxyclean very difficult to rinse completely. It just suds up way too much. I stick with One-Step. It may cost a few cents more, but it rinses easily.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Feb 24, 2021)

As i understand it, the citric acid lowers the Ph, increasing the effectiveness of the kmeta. StarSan works by acidic vapors. Why not combine the two? Why not add some oxy to the mix? A bigger question: Is the whole sanitizing of bottles over rated? Air is full of airborne pathogens. So is our breath, should we mask up?. Operating room tables work under sterilizing UV lights. Yet wineries pull bottles directly from the factory boxes? Some, including myself, placing the wet top of a bottle on the bottom of a dark carboard box? Cardboard is cellulose, and absorbtive. A wet, dark sponge. Take away any sterilizing effect of UV sunlight and it's a great growth medium. Are we innoculating and cross contaminating each bottle every time we place it on a bottle tree? Perhaps I shouldn't have had that third cup of coffee, but as all are successful with what seem to be flawed methods, can it really be that important?


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## bstnh1 (Feb 24, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> As i understand it, the citric acid lowers the Ph, increasing the effectiveness of the kmeta. StarSan works by acidic vapors. Why not combine the two? Why not add some oxy to the mix? A bigger question: Is the whole sanitizing of bottles over rated? Air is full of airborne pathogens. So is our breath, should we mask up?. Operating room tables work under sterilizing UV lights. Yet wineries pull bottles directly from the factory boxes? Some, including myself, placing the wet top of a bottle on the bottom of a dark carboard box? Cardboard is cellulose, and absorbtive. A wet, dark sponge. Take away any sterilizing effect of UV sunlight and it's a great growth medium. Are we innoculating and cross contaminating each bottle every time we place it on a bottle tree? Perhaps I shouldn't have had that third cup of coffee, but as all are successful with what seem to be flawed methods, can it really be that important?


Are you willing to make a few batches with no sanitization and document the results? I'm not.


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## reeflections (Feb 24, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> As i understand it, the citric acid lowers the Ph, increasing the effectiveness of the kmeta. StarSan works by acidic vapors. Why not combine the two? Why not add some oxy to the mix? A bigger question: Is the whole sanitizing of bottles over rated? Air is full of airborne pathogens. So is our breath, should we mask up?. Operating room tables work under sterilizing UV lights. Yet wineries pull bottles directly from the factory boxes? Some, including myself, placing the wet top of a bottle on the bottom of a dark carboard box? Cardboard is cellulose, and absorbtive. A wet, dark sponge. Take away any sterilizing effect of UV sunlight and it's a great growth medium. Are we innoculating and cross contaminating each bottle every time we place it on a bottle tree? Perhaps I shouldn't have had that third cup of coffee, but as all are successful with what seem to be flawed methods, can it really be that important?



Of course we aren't quite as concerned with our wine as we would be with exposed organs in surgery. We all can make our own choice about the tradeoffs between safety and extra cost or time. We make the choices and live with any consequences. 

I find that rinsing used bottles of my own wine thoroughly and before the wine dries, then sanitizing with k-meta with a plunger along with the new bottles, feels like a proper tradeoff for me. Not too hard for the 5-15 gallons I usually bottle at a time, yet makes me feel safe.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 24, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> As i understand it, the citric acid lowers the Ph, increasing the effectiveness of the kmeta. StarSan works by acidic vapors. Why not combine the two? Why not add some oxy to the mix? A bigger question: Is the whole sanitizing of bottles over rated? Air is full of airborne pathogens. So is our breath, should we mask up?. Operating room tables work under sterilizing UV lights. Yet wineries pull bottles directly from the factory boxes? Some, including myself, placing the wet top of a bottle on the bottom of a dark carboard box? Cardboard is cellulose, and absorbtive. A wet, dark sponge. Take away any sterilizing effect of UV sunlight and it's a great growth medium. Are we innoculating and cross contaminating each bottle every time we place it on a bottle tree? Perhaps I shouldn't have had that third cup of coffee, but as all are successful with what seem to be flawed methods, can it really be that important?



I'm not sure how many folks on the forum ever had a chance to work at a winery or even been exposed to the operation. Cleanliness isn't taken lightly but also isn't taken to the extremes we are taught to do. A T-bin that has been exposed to all the outside elements all summer long is simply hosed down then filled with either crushed grapes or pressed juice. The crusher and pressed are hosed down to remove any pulp, seeds or stem and that's it. As you said bottles, although they are always new in boxes, are just sent to the bottling line. Sometimes a little puff of nitrogen or argon is placed in the bottle to remove dust and some oxygen. I've been building and helping out at wineries for several years now and although I take a little more care in sanitation and cleanliness than they do I do keep it to a happy medium.


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## reeflections (Feb 24, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I'm not sure how many folks on the forum ever had a chance to work at a winery or even been exposed to the operation. {snip}



Never even been in a winery (past the sampling bar), but I did spend about 5 years at Miller Brewing Company - 50 years ago.

We filled a lot of new bottles out of the case there. But we also filled the returnable long necks that came back from bars and restaurants. They ran through some kind of acid that ate most of the labels and most of the mold and dead things inside. Those that still had labels were soaked in tubs of hot water and hand scrubbed to remove the labels and put back on the line.

They were then filled with beer and then they passed by a light where an "inspector" was supposed to watch for foreign matter in the sometimes clear and sometimes amber bottles as they sped past in front of the light. If they saw anything inside, their job was to pull the bottle and it would be emptied and taken back to the front of the line. This was a union job and many there did not really have much concern. I remember one woman in particular that was always doing her nails while the bottles whizzed by. I personally saw several bottles with some sort of gunk go right to the pasteurizer, where they would go next to the cases and then the warehouse. I even saw one with a dead mouse make it past the inspector. I just happened to be walking by so I was able to pull it. 

Needless to say, I have never drank from a returnable bottle since. I also never drink from cans that don't come in enclosed cases. Another story.


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## wood1954 (Feb 25, 2021)

I have been using starsan, but after dropping dropping a bottle because it was so slippery and because if I add too much starsan it takes forever to rinse it out, I don’t like the smell of starsan so I rinse till clear. From now on I’ll use kmeta just to rinse out any dust, pour a little in and drain it then fill with wine, should save a lot of time.


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## Sailor323 (Feb 25, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> I find Oxyclean very difficult to rinse completely. It just suds up way too much. I stick with One-Step. It may cost a few cents more, but it rinses easily.


I agree, I'd never use Oxyclean for this purpose. I sanitize with K-meta and when cleaning is necessary I use a detergent designed for cleaning dairy equipment, it has no odor and rinses easily and completely


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## Paulietivo (Feb 25, 2021)

Reading all of the comments was like a memory flashback for me. I think I have tried all of these methods for sanitizing. I started with dunking the entire bottles in buckets of sanitizer and then rinsing. Then I had the pressurized bottle washer attachment on the sink. Then I used to use the vinitor bottle squirter. 

Now I'm all in on I'm all in on @vacuumpumpman and his Pressurized Bottle Washer / Sanitizer/ Transfer Pump. This thing is amazing.

It turns on automatically when you put a bottle on it and boom you have full flow sanitizer (SO2) cleaning the bottles for you. Then just put it on a clean sanitized bottle tree.

I realized that when I finish drinking a bottle of wine I wash it with soap and water. Then squirt some star san in it and store it on a bottle tree.
When its time to bottle my wine, I use SO2 in the pump and don't rinse it. Just pop it on the bottle tee. 

After bottling I rinse my carboys out and clean them with the same pump and sanitizer I used for the bottles. 

If you have the all in one wine pump, then you know bottling by yourself is a breeze. I cork one bottle as the other one is filling. 
Salute!


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## balatonwine (Feb 25, 2021)

The thread is wrong to only limit the question to only two options:

"What do you use Star San or SO2"

As if....... those are the only options in the world....

The world is more complex. A better question would be simply:

*What do you use to sanitize your bottles before bottling?*


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## Bossbaby (Feb 25, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> The thread is wrong to only limit the question to only two options:
> 
> "What do you use Star San or SO2"
> 
> ...


what is your preferred method of sanitizing?


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## Mac60 (Feb 25, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> The thread is wrong to only limit the question to only two options:
> 
> "What do you use Star San or SO2"
> 
> ...



Well I created the thread to gain some insight on what % of fellow wine makers preferred Starsan or Kmeta, I use both but specifically for bottling I was looking for some insight. Which I got and I always appreciate the feedback


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## winemaker81 (Feb 25, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> maybe it’s me—- but i’ve never noticed this mysterious bottle shock i always read about.


Bottle shock is real, but it doesn't happen all the time, maybe 25% in my experience. Enough that I don't touch bottles for a few months. But that's a good idea, in general.



mainshipfred said:


> Cleanliness isn't taken lightly but also isn't taken to the extremes we are taught to do.


I used to know a dozen or so winery owners in the Finger Lakes of NY. More than a few laughed at the extremes home winemakers went to, in various areas. It's easy to take what we're told at face value. I did that, and had to unlearn a lot of things over the years. This is why I try to explain _why _I do things, so others can make informed decisions. 



bstnh1 said:


> Are you willing to make a few batches with no sanitization and document the results? I'm not.


I've been cleaning, sanitizing, and storing bottles, then doing nothing extra at bottling since ~1990. I've never had a bad bottle that can be attributed to anything beyond the cork, although I've had a few batches go bad. [If there is a lot of rain before harvest, enough that grapes are bursting on the vine and yellow jackets are feasting, DO NOT try to pick the good berries. There aren't any ...]



reeflections said:


> We all can make our own choice about the tradeoffs between safety and extra cost or time. We make the choices and live with any consequences.


Excellent point.


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## Ivywoods (Feb 26, 2021)

Star san, Kmeta, One step.
What is the difference?
Is Kmeta the same chemical compound as One step? I have one step. It says you don't need to rinse. I am assuming that it's safe to do it this way.


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## dralarms (Feb 26, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Star san, Kmeta, One step.
> What is the difference?
> Is Kmeta the same chemical compound as One step? I have one step. It says you don't need to rinse. I am assuming that it's safe to do it this way.


One step is a type of oxiclean. Kmeta is potassium metabisulfite. Stan San I’m not sure about what it actually it


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## Ivywoods (Feb 26, 2021)

Thank you dralarms! I've heard people say they will not use an oxiclean sanitizer. Does anyone know the reason ?


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## reeflections (Feb 26, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> I've heard people say they will not use an oxiclean sanitizer. Does anyone know the reason ?



I have never used oxiclean but I was of the understanding that it is a cleaner - NOT a sanitizer. Star San and K-meta are sanitizers and not cleaners. Cleaning and sanitizing being 2 different operations. 

I use PBW for cleaning and K-meta or Star San for sanitizing.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 26, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Thank you dralarms! I've heard people say they will not use an oxiclean sanitizer. Does anyone know the reason ?



One Step is sold as both a cleaner and sanitizer. I have cognitive dissonance that says one product cannot do both of those tasks. I use oxyclean (Free of scents) for cleaning and then either KMeta or Star San for sanitizing.

Some folks don't like the "slimy" feel that oxyclean based cleaners leave on products.

Those folks who say I've never used Oxyclean, I use PBW might want to read up on the differences between PBW and Oxyclean. The active ingredient in PBW is 30% Sodium Metasilicate and the rest composed primarily of percarbonate (Oxyclean) and sodium bicarbonate.


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## reeflections (Feb 26, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> Those folks who say I've never used Oxyclean, I use PBW might want to read up on the differences between PBW and Oxyclean. The active ingredient in PBW is 30% Sodium Metasilicate and the rest composed primarily of percarbonate (Oxyclean) and sodium bicarbonate.



I guess that's referring to me. I have nothing against Oxyclean - just never used it. I bought a jar of PBW a year ago and haven't used it up yet. Is Oxyclean cheaper? Better?


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## cmason1957 (Feb 26, 2021)

reeflections said:


> I guess that's referring to me. I have nothing against Oxyclean - just never used it. I bought a jar of PBW a year ago and haven't used it up yet. Is Oxyclean cheaper? Better?



Oh sorry, no that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, your message wasn't displayed on my screen when I typed it up. Others have said the same thing and I just wanted to point that out. 

Yes, Oxiclean is cheaper, by a lot. Costco Price is $20/nearly 12 lbs. PBW is $25/4lbs at labelpeelers. Maybe less expensive other places. PBW is the beer industry cleaner of choice, I will say that. Is it better, that I can't really say, having never used it. I do know Oxyclean (the scent-free type) does a great job cleaning anything I have ever needed to clean.

And no I don't work for Oxyclean or any other company that makes something like that. Software Developer, in case anyone wonders if there is a conflict of interest.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 26, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I'm not sure how many folks on the forum ever had a chance to work at a winery or even been exposed to the operation. Cleanliness isn't taken lightly but also isn't taken to the extremes we are taught to do. A T-bin that has been exposed to all the outside elements all summer long is simply hosed down then filled with either crushed grapes or pressed juice. The crusher and pressed are hosed down to remove any pulp, seeds or stem and that's it. As you said bottles, although they are always new in boxes, are just sent to the bottling line. Sometimes a little puff of nitrogen or argon is placed in the bottle to remove dust and some oxygen. I've been building and helping out at wineries for several years now and although I take a little more care in sanitation and cleanliness than they do I do keep it to a happy medium.


Exactly! I've only been a cellar rat - harvest helper for a couple days at two wineries but hosing down with water was the most cleaning that I observed. Picking lugs and t-bins had been power washed or hosed out; fermenters were hosed out; crushers were hosed off; grapes were not sorted before crushing (unless there was extra - free help); bottles taken from the box to bottling line.

My favorite story is when as part of a class exercise we crushed a few bunches of grapes to test pre-harvest; after testing we all tasted the fresh juice (eight people drank out of the same pitcher) and the vineyard manager/winemaker took the pitcher and poured the remaining juice into an active fermentation. At that pint I realized that wine is a preservative and active fermentation kills plenty of bad bugs. This was pre-COVID - not sure we would drink after each other now. Not sure if the winemaker would do anything differently.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 26, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Star san, Kmeta, One step. What is the difference?


There are two purposes here: cleaning and sanitizing.

Cleaning is, well, cleaning -- removing visible and not-so-visible particles and residue from equipment.

Sanitizing is killing _most_ of the yeast, bacteria, and the like.

BTW, sterilizing is killing _all _of the yeast, bacteria, and the like.



cmason1957 said:


> I have cognitive dissonance that says one product cannot do both of those tasks.


H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) is a sterilizing agent, and Oxyclean produces H2O2 when dissolved. It makes sense to use OneStep or Oxyclean for both cleaning and sanitizing. HOWEVER -- the H2O2 concentration matters, e.g., this is why standard 3% H2O2 can't be used to sterilize COVID-19, it can't guarantee 100% removal. [I don't know if 3% H2O2 is a good enough sanitizing agent for wine making, and am not recommending it without further investigation.]

My understanding is that OneStep, if reconstituted according to directions (1 Tbsp in 1 gallon water), will sanitize. However, I have no idea what concentration of Oxyclean is required to achieve the same effect. That needs to be investigated.

I racked a bunch of small containers yesterday -- before starting I made a gallon of OneStep and ran it through my wine pump. I could see discoloration, so I pumped that gallon from container to container. The first time through wiped out all discoloration in the pump.

It appears I did not clean the pump as well as I should have. My new process is to pump a gallon of OneStep through the pump, at least once, before use. And to pump OneStep through it again before putting it away. During pumping I sprayed the inside of all primary fermenters -- one touch and discoloration wiped away.

OneStep is strong. My son (chemical engineer) looked at it, said it's essentially industrial grade H2O2. He advised washing it off if it gets on your skin. It's not going to burn like acid, but he said long term exposure may not be a good thing, so better safe than sorry. His job includes working in a testing lab, so he's very cautious with any and all chemicals.


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## CDrew (Feb 26, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Star san, Kmeta, One step.
> What is the difference?
> Is Kmeta the same chemical compound as One step? I have one step. It says you don't need to rinse. I am assuming that it's safe to do it this way.




OxiClean is an excellent cleaner and you can make it even more similar to PBW by adding about 1/3 by volume of TSP/90. But plain OxiClean (Free) is great on it's own. One step is the same percarbonate chemical as OxiClean. Neither are sanitizers. And, One Step no longer says it is a sanitizer. Back in the day, it did. But it never was a true sanitizer.

I think the reason that Oxiclean feels slippery, is that as an alkaline cleaner, it forms a soap on contact with the oils of your skin. And,I've never found it hard to rinse off of equipment.

Sanitizers only work after the surfaces are clean. StarSan is mostly phosphoric acid and works by lowering the pH below where most bacteria can survive.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 26, 2021)

*According to the US FDA*, a product containing 7.5% H2O2 is a sterilizing agent. Search for "peroxide" on the page. According to the vendor docs, 30 minute exposure is required for high level disinfection. Sterilization takes a lot longer, but we're sanitizing, not sterilizing.

We should question how ALL sanitizing products are supposed to be used.

I've been rinsing equipment in K-meta water for decades, shaking it off, and using it. However, I read recently that the water isn't the sanitizing agent, it's the SO2 vapor. So -- like most home winemakers -- I've been doing it wrong. We should probably rinse the equipment and then let it set to allow the residual K-meta water vaporize. For how long? I have no idea [yet].

This requires research, so we're working from facts, and not blogs and other hearsay.

This discussion has reinforced my belief that the best first step to sanitizing is to put all equipment away clean. If there's nothing to grow on, microbial life has a much lesser chance of being present, so all sanitizing methods will work better.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 26, 2021)

I found this article from Winemaker mag, which is very good reading, not a technical journal, but very technical minded. It talks about both cleaning and sanitizing. Cleaning is basically what has been said above PBW, OxyClean same base, PBW is stronger than Oxyclean. Chlorine is also mentioned, primarily for glass and then rinsed very, very, very, very well.

Sanitizing:


> In stronger doses, potassium metabisulfite works well to sanitize your equipment, with no negative consequences. Make a solution of 8 teaspoons dry measure of potassium metabisulfite added to 1 gallon (4 liters) of warm water. Rinse your equipment in this solution for about 5 minutes, and let drip dry. {/QUOTE]
> 
> Keep it Clean - WineMakerMag.com
> 
> ...


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## TurkeyHollow (Feb 26, 2021)

When friends and family save bottles to be filled, sometimes they're not as clean as they would be if they would have been rinsed as soon as they were emptied. I found this article awhile back that can save you money on PBW: Super-charge your Oxiclean – Bertus Brewery . Sometimes I use this to get all the heavy material off the bottles or carboys. I ALWAYS follow up with cleaning them before sanitizing. On the wine side, after cleaning, I'll sanitize everything (except my stainless) with SO2 then let dry until I'm ready to use again. I'll sanitize once again just before use. Maybe a little overkill but I would hate to lose a batch of wine because I didn't spend the extra 5 minutes.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 26, 2021)

I live and die by PBW and StarSan. I use StarSan for beer making and since my equipment is interchangeable, I stick with the same protocol. PBW is expensive but I try to make use of a batch and it does the job every time.


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## Bossbaby (Feb 26, 2021)

TurkeyHollow said:


> When friends and family save bottles to be filled, sometimes they're not as clean as they would be if they would have been rinsed as soon as they were emptied. I found this article awhile back that can save you money on PBW: Super-charge your Oxiclean – Bertus Brewery . Sometimes I use this to get all the heavy material off the bottles or carboys. I ALWAYS follow up with cleaning them before sanitizing. On the wine side, after cleaning, I'll sanitize everything (except my stainless) with SO2 then let dry until I'm ready to use again. I'll sanitize once again just before use. Maybe a little overkill but I would hate to lose a batch of wine because I didn't spend the extra 5 minutes.


what does SO2 do to stainless ??


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## skyfire322 (Feb 26, 2021)

7munkee said:


> Glad to see I'm not the only one who uses Oxyclean. In my dirty carboys especially.


Oxyclean FTW! It's so much readily available and cheaper.


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## Old Corker (Feb 26, 2021)

I use Oxyclean when I have a heavy cleaning job. Like a Craigs List carboy or bottles from friends. Also use it when I’m out of One Step. After reading all of this I’m wondering why I don’t just use it for all cleaning jobs. I may have just evolved again.


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## TurkeyHollow (Feb 27, 2021)

SO2 can be corrosive to stainless steel. It will stain and if left in contact with SS long enough, can pit an corrode. Different grades of SS react differently with SO2. What Happens When SO2 Reacts With Steel?


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## Sailor323 (Feb 27, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Thank you dralarms! I've heard people say they will not use an oxiclean sanitizer. Does anyone know the reason ?


I have used Oxyclean to clean household articles and find it to be very difficult to rinse. There are other oxygen cleaners (like one step) that are easy to rinse.


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## distancerunner (Feb 27, 2021)

Currently, PBW for cleaning. Formerly sal soda.

Currently StarSan for santizing. Formerly Kmeta in distilled water.

Except bottles prior to bottling. Then Kmeta on the day of bottling. Bottles drain on tree.

Open to trying other products.


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## balatonwine (Feb 27, 2021)

Bossbaby said:


> what is your preferred method of sanitizing?



Simply as an example: An ammonia solution makes for a very good sanitizing agent for the bottle itself (probably better than Sulfite alone). Rinse well with water or another solution. Sanitizing need not be the same as the final rinse. And tap water alone is pretty sterile enough for home wine making purposes for a final rinse in most places (it has to pass a lot of codes to reach your tap, and is pretty dead biologically). If in doubt, use hot water. Water over 60°C will kill most problems.

Personally, I use a Sulfuric acid solution to clean the bottle. Then rinse with hot water and Sulfite. The Sulfite is mostly only to add SO2 to the wine, not to so much sanitize the bottle. But that is just me.


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## heatherd (Feb 28, 2021)

CDrew said:


> You may be right about the "bottle shock" but I religiously wait at least 4 weeks before even tasting. UC Davis should employ some science here.
> 
> Bottling by yourself is tough. Even a little bit of help moving or sanitizing bottles, speeds things up tremendously.
> 
> ...


OneStep has some sanitizing properties because it has hydrogen peroxide in it: One Step - LOGIC, Inc. (ecologiccleansers.com) I use it on my equipment and love that it's low-foam and fairly natural. 

After a few years of cleaning and sanitizing my bottles, I'm now in @Ajmassa's camp of bottling directly in the box.


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## heatherd (Feb 28, 2021)

reeflections said:


> I guess that's referring to me. I have nothing against Oxyclean - just never used it. I bought a jar of PBW a year ago and haven't used it up yet. Is Oxyclean cheaper? Better?


OneStep is different than household Oxyclean in that it doesn't need rinsing, doesn't leave a residue, is low-foam, and has some sanitizing properties from the hydrogen peroxide in it. I like it because it streamlines my work.

Here's what the manufacturer says about it:
"One Step is the only environmentally sound, non-toxic, no-rinse cleanser on the market today for brewers and wineries. Unlike other cleansers that require rinsing because of their alkaline nature or that use materials that can be harmful to the environment, One Step — the original no-rinse cleanser — uses active oxygen to clean your equipment. In addition to being designed to minimize residue and while maximizing detergency, One Step uses oxygen entrained within a mineral crystal that dissolves when combined with water. The oxygen is then released to form hydrogen peroxide – a compound long known for its sanitizing and disinfectant abilities. The hydrogen peroxide completes its work and then degrades into oxygen and water, leaving behind only the minerals that are stable, naturally occurring compounds – no different than minerals often found in drinking water. Because One Step is essentially non-foaming when used at the recommended concentration, it may be used in clean-in-place (CIP) systems as well as in the soak tank. One Step may be used on, essentially, all surfaces and is safe for brass, copper, aluminum and stainless, as well as polycarbonate and vinyl."


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## VillaVino (Feb 28, 2021)

Been using one step for many years. Started to use oxy clean for the tougher cleaning situations but always finish with a one step rinse.


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## gamble (Feb 28, 2021)

I find a light tapping of quartz crystal to my bottles and equipment seems to keep them clean. If they are really dirty I will apply essential oils


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## CDrew (Feb 28, 2021)

heatherd said:


> OneStep has some sanitizing properties because it has hydrogen peroxide in it: One Step - LOGIC, Inc. (ecologiccleansers.com) I use it on my equipment and love that it's low-foam and fairly natural.
> 
> After a few years of cleaning and sanitizing my bottles, I'm now in @Ajmassa's camp of bottling directly in the box.



No doubt but requires a 20 minute or more exposure to sanitize. The nice part about Star San and KMBS is that it's basically instant.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 28, 2021)

CDrew said:


> No doubt but requires a 20 minute or more exposure to sanitize. The nice part about Star San and KMBS is that it's basically instant.


According to *Midwest Supplies*, StarSan requires 1 to 2 minutes of contact. Other vendors said either 1 minute or 1 to 2 minutes.

Another page, might be the manufacturer's, said StarSan is good only for 1 hour after mixing. I moved off the page and haven't found it again. *Northern Brewer* says the solution is good for 3 to 4 weeks in a sealed container. Ok ... who's right? Unless it's the manufacturer's page, be cautious of what is believed. I have nothing against StarSan, just pointing out that what we take as facts may not be facts. It's hard to know what to believe. This is equally true for all products.

We had a discussion a few weeks ago regarding pectic enzyme. A lot of sites regurgitated what's in a study from 1950 ... regarding products that no longer exist. Someone contacted current vendors, who presented current facts. We have to triple-check our sources to ensure they are up to date and reliable.


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## Bill Pet (Mar 1, 2021)

I've used starsan for the last 5 years. No problems. Works fast, no rinsing. According to many posts when I first started using it, it keeps well. Ok to use as long as it still foams -- 2-3 months in a closed container. One issue, it turns cloudy within a short time when mixed with water containing minerals like tap water and store spring water. White stuff actually precipitates out. I use distilled water. In fact, just add the starsan to a gallon distilled water jug.


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## balatonwine (Mar 1, 2021)

heatherd said:


> Here's what the manufacturer says about it:
> "One Step is the only environmentally sound, non-toxic, no-rinse cleanser on the market today for brewers and wineries. Unlike other cleansers that require rinsing because of their alkaline nature or that use materials that can be harmful to the environment, One Step — the original no-rinse cleanser — uses active oxygen to clean your equipment. In addition to being designed to minimize residue and while maximizing detergency, One Step uses oxygen entrained within a mineral crystal that dissolves when combined with water. The oxygen is then released to form hydrogen peroxide – a compound long known for its sanitizing and disinfectant abilities. The hydrogen peroxide completes its work and then degrades into oxygen and water, leaving behind only the minerals that are stable, naturally occurring compounds – no different than minerals often found in drinking water. Because One Step is essentially non-foaming when used at the recommended concentration, it may be used in clean-in-place (CIP) systems as well as in the soak tank. One Step may be used on, essentially, all surfaces and is safe for brass, copper, aluminum and stainless, as well as polycarbonate and vinyl."



And I want none of that.... whatever.... in my wine.

This is *totally* me and *totally* me alone.... So no matter what product I use, I will rinse. 

But we are each different. This is *not* a critique. Simple stating my personal preference. No science to back up my claim. It is just me. To each their own. Cheers.


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## VillaVino (Mar 1, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> And I want none of that.... whatever.... in my wine.
> 
> This is *totally* me and *totally* me alone.... So no matter what product I use, I will rinse.
> 
> But we are each different. This is *not* a critique. Simple stating my personal preference. No science to back up my claim. It is just me. To each their own. Cheers.


You’re not alone. If I know the bottles or equipment is going to sit long enough to dry, I’ll just leave the One step on it. If I’m cleaning and I’m bottling within a short while (say 30 mins), I’ll rinse with water too.


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## StreetGlide (Mar 2, 2021)

This is what I do. Not saying it’s the best or even right for that matter, but it’s worked. Everything gets washed in One Step or Oxy (No scent). Bottles and fermenters always get sanatozed with Kneta. Fermenters pour half a cup of solution in seal it for 15 mins or longer and let the vapors do their job, then I do rinse with hot water after pouring kmeta out. Bottles I use that plastic bottle sanatizer tool (can’t think of the name but sure you all seen it and or have one) kmeta gets shot in the bottle then the bottle goes back in the box lined with clean paper towels to dry and again let vapors do their job bottles don’t get rinsed. Everything else, spoons, AIO hoses and fittings, etc I use starsan out of a spray bottle give everything a good mist make sure it’s in contact a few minutes and that’s it.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 2, 2021)

StreetGlide said:


> This is what I do. Not saying it’s the best or even right for that matter, *but it’s worked*.


Emphasis mine. There is no such thing as "best" in this context -- what matters is if the solution used is effective. So far, I can't recall anything said in this thread that I don't believe would be effective for cleaning and/or sanitizing.

We're looking at different methods of cleaning and/or sanitizing, and looking at products critically. This has been a truly valuable discussion.


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## mbrssmd (Mar 3, 2021)

This year I’m facing my first bottling (Barbera/rosé and red/CabFranc + PetitVerdot). This thread has been extraordinary. I really appreciate everyone’s contributions on their experiences, which has given me a lot of things to think about as I plan out my methods.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 6, 2021)

TurkeyHollow said:


> When friends and family save bottles to be filled, sometimes _they're not as clean as they would be_ if they would have been rinsed as soon as they were emptied.


Emphasis mine. I reviewed this thread and laughed again when I read this. I nearly spit my wine out the first read through, which would have been a terrible waste of wine!

Everyone receiving a bottle of my wine gets the same instructions -- rinse the bottle when done, drain it, and return it. Failure means no more wine.

Sometimes ya gotta be a hardass about these things ....


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## Paulietivo (Mar 7, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Emphasis mine. I reviewed this thread and laughed again when I read this. I nearly spit my wine out the first read through, which would have been a terrible waste of wine!
> 
> Everyone receiving a bottle of my wine gets the same instructions -- rinse the bottle when done, drain it, and return it. Failure means no more wine.
> 
> Sometimes ya gotta be a hardass about these things ....


People have "returned" bottles to me and in some cases I just put them in the recycle bin. Thanks for the bottles, aka headache of trying to clean out whatever you let grow in there. Ahh no thanks.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 7, 2021)

Paulietivo said:


> People have "returned" bottles to me and in some cases I just put them in the recycle bin. Thanks for the bottles, aka headache of trying to clean out whatever you let grow in there. Ahh no thanks.


I'm WAY too cheap. $35 USD for 2 cases of bottles pushes my costs way up on each carboy.

I rinse all bottles in hot top water, regardless of where they come from. If it's mine, I visually inspect and sanitize, then put way. If it's not mine, soak in OneStep & hot water, use a bottle brush, sanitize, and put away.


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## Paulietivo (Mar 7, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I'm WAY too cheap. $35 USD for 2 cases of bottles pushes my costs way up on each carboy.
> 
> I rinse all bottles in hot top water, regardless of where they come from. If it's mine, I visually inspect and sanitize, then put way. If it's not mine, soak in OneStep & hot water, use a bottle brush, sanitize, and put away.


$35 for 2 cases is expensive. I've been getting bottles between $9-$13 per case. 
Also agree if new are used always its way too expensive. I reuse all of my own bottles that I personally use. The ones that are returned to me are something not worth the hassle but if I need bottles then yes I will attempt to get them usable.


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