# Extended Maceration



## sdelli (Oct 30, 2013)

After 10 days of fermentation all three bins are at around .998.... Tonight I shrink wrapped the bins and gassed them with Argon. Now.... 3 days of extended maceration.....


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## KeystoneHomebrew (Oct 30, 2013)

Was this on purpose, or out of necessity? Just curious.


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## sdelli (Oct 31, 2013)

KeystoneHomebrew said:


> Was this on purpose, or out of necessity? Just curious.


 It was both on purpose since I wanted to try it and see its results but also out of necessity since I do not have the time to press until this weekend.


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## JohnT (Nov 1, 2013)

sdelli said:


> After 10 days of fermentation all three bins are at around .998.... Tonight I shrink wrapped the bins and gassed them with Argon. Now.... 3 days of extended maceration.....


 

Good Luck, I hope it works out for you. 
I see this as very dangerous and would not recommend this to anyone.


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 1, 2013)

Isn't an extended maceration usually started BEFORE the yeast is pitched? In other words: keep the juice cold and on the skins for a few days, then let it warm back up and pitch the yeast?


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## sdelli (Nov 1, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> Isn't an extended maceration usually started BEFORE the yeast is pitched? In other words: keep the juice cold and on the skins for a few days, then let it warm back up and pitch the yeast?



It is done both ways and times...


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## sdelli (Nov 1, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Good Luck, I hope it works out for you. I see this as very dangerous and would not recommend this to anyone.



Thanks... I think it is not as dangerous as you think if done correctly. If you turn the container into an air tight vessel and gas it... It is basically just like being in a gassed carboy. Only still on the skins. The real question is how will it effect the taste of the wine because it could make it better or more tart... I am pressing tomorrow and we will see.....


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## tingo (Nov 1, 2013)

Please post your results. Im interested to see what you will create post fermentation. My prediction is a very tannic dark wine.


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## sdelli (Nov 2, 2013)

Pressed today... Wine was dark and thicker at the press... But tasted very good! Not tanic at all...


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## sdelli (Nov 2, 2013)

All in carboys...


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## cedarswamp (Nov 2, 2013)

Whatcha got there? Looks good.


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## seth8530 (Nov 3, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> Isn't an extended maceration usually started BEFORE the yeast is pitched? In other words: keep the juice cold and on the skins for a few days, then let it warm back up and pitch the yeast?



Cold soak is typically the term used for prefermentatoin soaking and extended maceration is the term used for after fermentation. I would not be surprised however if extended maceration is used to describe both phases.


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## tingo (Nov 3, 2013)

Not tannic? Sounds like you pressed at the right time. Good job. Were you tasting everyday to watch for a change in tannic flavors?


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## sdelli (Nov 3, 2013)

tingo said:


> Not tannic? Sounds like you pressed at the right time. Good job. Were you tasting everyday to watch for a change in tannic flavors?


As soon as it got out in the air for a few minutes it level out nicely.... I decided not to take the chance and keep opening it to the air since it was only going through a 3 to 5 day extension. After the press I did a total blend that mixed the two fermentations of D21 and BM4X4.... Taste came together well.... Final blended SG came in at .995


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## KeystoneHomebrew (Nov 3, 2013)

Great experiment. And the wine looks great! 

Are you doing an MLF on them next?


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## sdelli (Nov 4, 2013)

KeystoneHomebrew said:


> Great experiment. And the wine looks great!
> 
> Are you doing an MLF on them next?



Thanks.... Tonight is has been 48 hours and the carboys need a racking off the gross lees... Then I am going to do a MLF using VP41 this time. I heard a lot of good things about this one so I am going to try it out. I have used Bachus in the past with good results as well....


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## KeystoneHomebrew (Nov 7, 2013)

VP41 has produced some great wines for me, as has Bachus, but I think you made the right choice. Great strain there!


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## TicinoVintner (Nov 9, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Cold soak is typically the term used for prefermentatoin soaking and extended maceration is the term used for after fermentation. I would not be surprised however if extended maceration is used to describe both phases.




Cold soak is pre fermentation, (some studies have questioned if this brings any results and many winemakers no longer use this method) EM is fermentation and beyond. Last year I went 27 days with whole berries before pressing. The wine is extremely complex with a great mouth feel, however it's still too young to bottle. This years EM is still going.....

Edit, just checked the calander and I am now on 31 days since harvest. maybe I should go check it. Lol.


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## seth8530 (Nov 9, 2013)

Hehe, nice to hear.. I think my cold soak increased the sugar by a couple brix.. however, I have not tried mine side by side against a non coldsoaked wine. that ifs quite the extended mascrration you got going on.


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## TicinoVintner (Nov 9, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Hehe, nice to hear.. I think my cold soak increased the sugar by a couple brix.. however, I have not tried mine side by side against a non coldsoaked wine. that ifs quite the extended mascrration you got going on.



Hmmm, I am not sure if that is possible at all (someone please correct me if I am wrong) but sugar development happens in the grape via photosynthesis from the nearest leaves. As soon as you remove the grape from the plant and the sun you remove any chance for further sugar development. The increase in Brix may be from the fact that it had a colder temperature than what is considered to be the normal range of your hydrometer.


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## seth8530 (Nov 9, 2013)

TicinoVintner said:


> Hmmm, I am not sure if that is possible at all (someone please correct me if I am wrong) but sugar development happens in the grape via photosynthesis from the nearest leaves. As soon as you remove the grape from the plant and the sun you remove any chance for further sugar development. The increase in Brix may be from the fact that it had a colder temperature than what is considered to be the normal range of your hydrometer.



Ah, but you are correct that that sugar development halts as soon as soon as they are removed from the plant.. However, a reason why the cold soak could increase the brix would be because as the juice and the grapes have longer to sit more sugars from the sugar rich grapes (relative to the juice) can diffuse to the less sugary juice thus raising the over all brix of the juice. I will use an ebuilometer on my final product to get the ABV. Using that and the final gravity we should be able to tell just how high the cold soak raised our sugars up.


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## TicinoVintner (Nov 10, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Ah, but you are correct that that sugar development halts as soon as soon as they are removed from the plant.. However, a reason why the cold soak could increase the brix would be because as the juice and the grapes have longer to sit more sugars from the sugar rich grapes (relative to the juice) can diffuse to the less sugary juice thus raising the over all brix of the juice. I will use an ebuilometer on my final product to get the ABV. Using that and the final gravity we should be able to tell just how high the cold soak raised our sugars up.



That makes sense but I don't think a cold soak raised your total Brix, more like you have a more accurate reading as the sugars has properly diffused throughout the whole must. So what I'm trying to say is the cold soak raised your Brix to a more accurate reading but did not raise your ABV which should be the same if you did a cold soak or not. But I could be wrong as I do not know the physiology of cold soaks however everything that I have learned so far would have me believe that cold soaks cannot increase total Brix. 
Cold soak discussion in a EM thread, ADHD anyone?.....SQUIRREL!!


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## seth8530 (Nov 10, 2013)

interesting point. I guess the question is it's does that extra time on the sins allow for any extra sugars to get released that would normally not get released. of course extra sugars are not the only thing one ifs after from a cold soak though.. I would be interested in doing some extra reading on the matter. at the very least I do enjoy having a Mir accurate set off initial readings.


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## TicinoVintner (Nov 10, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> interesting point. I guess the question is it's does that extra time on the sins allow for any extra sugars to get released that would normally not get released. of course extra sugars are not the only thing one ifs after from a cold soak though.. I would be interested in doing some extra reading on the matter. at the very least I do enjoy having a Mir accurate set off initial readings.



No it wouldn't. Sugar is in the liquid pulp not the skins. Extra time on the skins is a good thing ( at least for my grapes) as you get more tannins, color and various other flavor and structure profiles. I read somewhere (maybe WBM) over the pros and cons of cold soaking and one WM said the only benifits of a cold soak would be if you harvested the grapes in higher temps. So the cold soak would help to bring the temps down and make it more fruity before starting fermentation, but you can get the same effect by harvesting in cooler temps which is why many California vineyards harvest at night. Many belive to capture every aspect (aroma, flavor, color) you need to start fermentation ASAP. Except for the guys making Amarone. Which brings us full circle back to which technique is superior. Ask 3 winemakers, get 5 answers. Lol


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## seth8530 (Nov 10, 2013)

Yeah, I guess the least we can agree on is that extra time on the skins allows for better extraction of other goodies. I am personally a fan of cool fermentations but I am running a side by side test with pinot and chard where one is cool and the other is fermented hot to try and get a good comparison.. However, I guess I should not derail this thread.


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## TicinoVintner (Feb 13, 2014)

The grapes I harvested in early Oct. have finally ended their EM. I pressed them yesterday the tried a small sip, then another, then a few more in a moment where the only words I could find were OMFG! It's not like any wine I have ever tried before. I can't really even describe it other than to say it tastes like freshly squeezed grape juice but with 13% alcohol and very smooth tannins. Even my wife and her mother were blown away. Good things happen when you break the rules.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 13, 2014)

Sdelli,
They look great! I cold soaked my Sangiovese and Cab Sav this past fall, both batches are amazing, I can't wait to try the finished product a year or so down the road!


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## JohnT (Feb 14, 2014)

Now you know why I am such a big fan of making wine from fresh grapes. Impossible to do this sort of thing any other way.


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## seth8530 (Feb 14, 2014)

Yeah, fresh grapes (perhaps frozen must too) are the way to go if at all possible. Be sure to keep us on the loop about how your wine comes along with age!


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## berrycrush (Feb 14, 2014)

Just wonder if one can use cream charger ( contains N2O ) instead of more expensive Argon canister to purge the oxygen in the fermenting bin...


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## sdelli (Feb 14, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> Just wonder if one can use cream charger ( contains N2O ) instead of more expensive Argon canister to purge the oxygen in the fermenting bin...




Not sure.... But I can tell you that I invested into a small tank and gauge with a trigger handle on it. I get it filled with an Argon/co2 mixture for only about $16. It lasts months!


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## sour_grapes (Feb 14, 2014)

Is N2O actually cheaper than Ar?? I would find that shocking. Ar is 0.5% of the atmosphere, fer cryin' out loud.


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## berrycrush (Feb 14, 2014)

Should Ar be expensive? don't know, but this one is:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009MH5PC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## sour_grapes (Feb 14, 2014)

I see what you mean. But, like sdelli, this is what I had in mind:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/shielding-gas-contents-1-size-20-cu-ft


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## sdelli (Feb 16, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> Should Ar be expensive? don't know, but this one is:
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009MH5PC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20




This is the type of tank I was referring too.... Not cartridges.

http://www.uwelding.com/i/argon40CF.JPG


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## ForzaItalia (Feb 16, 2014)

Sdelli any chance you can post a picture with the guage and trigger? Thanks! 

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Wine Making mobile app


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## sdelli (Feb 16, 2014)

Here ya go.... Tanks , gauges and spray tip I purchased from Harbor Freight. I have it filled locally....


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## ForzaItalia (Feb 16, 2014)

Awsome thanks! Thinking about trying this on my Chilean Malbec this year.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Wine Making mobile app


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## REDRUM (Feb 25, 2014)

Oops... sorry.. posted in wrong thread and I don't know how to delete


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