# Untoasted oak barrel



## WI_Wino

My dad bought an untoasted American oak 5 gallon barrel a number of years ago. He used it once, left a Chardonnay in for about a month. It was completely over oaked, still undrinkable after several years in the bottle. It's been sitting in his basement unused since then.

I've got a couple of cheaper red kits going, a cab and a sangiovese, and was considering borrowing it to age them in. Before I start to figure out how to clean/sanitize and get the barrel ready to go, I wanted get the group's opinion/thoughts on if the untoasted barrel is worth it. I saw the untoasted oak chip thread and it appears untoasted oak can be beneficial to the yeast during fermentation but little on aging. Frequent tasting will be required to ensure the oaking doesn't go crazy.


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## jimmyjames23

You will need to fill that barrel with water and a teaspoon k meta first. You need it to swell to check for leaks. It will very likely leak. 
When the leaking has stopped it's ready for sulphur burning. 
So you need to buy some sulphur sticks or disks. 

Did you want to toast the barrel first?


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## jimmyjames23

If it doesn't stop leaking you will need to remove the cleats and tighten the hoops while half full standing on end. Filled one inch below the bung hole. 
Lots to learn about barrels.


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## jimmyjames23

Here's a link on barrel toasting. 

I use a waste basket (mesh wire) I bought at a dollar shoppe. 
Toasting will drastically remove the new oak flavor. 

http://youtu.be/SJ-N0q6MT0U


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## WI_Wino

I recognize that I have a fair amount of prep work to get the barrel the ready, thanks for the info and links.

Before I try to swell the barrel and plug any leaks though, sounds like I should figure out if I want to toast it. Toasting reduces the amount of oak a barrel imparts on the wine? Or just the speed? Also does toasting significant change the flavor the barrel imparts vs. untoasted? I've read about the benefits of micro oxygenation but it seems like it'll take a larger number of batches to be run through an untoasted barrel to get to that point.


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## jimmyjames23

Toasted barrels impart a toasted oak taste. Coincidentally this is a much milder taste then untoasted oak. 
There are essentially two ways you can deal with an untoasted barrel. Store wine in it for no more than two weeks first batch, on the next batch four weeks the 2nd batch, six weeks 3rd batch. By eight weeks it will provide a continuous Oak flavor.
Just be sure to sulphide between batches. 

If you want to powerwash and toast the barrel with the top off I can give you detailed instructions and some you tube vids. 

You'll need a Hoop Driver. How handy are you?


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## jimmyjames23

Ps. You still need to soak the barrel before toasting if its been sitting dry for months. 

I've seen barrels sitting for a long time...they're not pretty inside. Take a flashlight and check for crystals.


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## Deezil

Personally, i wouldn't toast the barrel.. If you want a toasted barrel, i'd buy another newer one

Toasting the oak, changes the chemical make-up of the wood basically.. Allowing the release of different compounds that contribute different aromas, flavors and structure.. Depends on where the wood came from and what shape the wood is in (chips, cubes, staves, barrels) as to how long it takes or how strong the effect can be..

Your dad was onto something, i think, in having the Chardonnay in there, although the way i'd use the barrel probably isnt along the same lines as what he did.

I'd use it as a primary fermenter, basically. Atleast for a while, while it still has 'goods' to give up. I wouldnt age a wine in it, until it was neutral - but i'd gladly run any number of white wines, fruit wines, and red wines could probably benefit from it as well. When it was neutral though, it'd be wooden-gold for micro-oxygenating fruit wines w/o oak impact

There's another thread going into more of the details we've managed to stir up about untoasted oak; i definitely see benefits to this.. Untoasted oak adds structure & helps reduce vegetative/herbaceous characters


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## WI_Wino

I'm pretty handy, we've done some extensive remodeling and the house hasn't fallen down yet. I would be comfortable pulling the hoops off of one side to pop an end off. I took a flashlight, peeked in through the hold and the inside of the barrel looks mildewy. I'd say a cleaning is definitely in order.

At this point I'm leaning towards not toasting the barrel. From what I've gathered you can plane a barrel down and toast it at a later date. I'm thinking about keeping it simple for my first go around. Clean it, button up any leaks, throw in a couple of batches and sample frequently.


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## jimmyjames23

WI_Wino said:


> I'm pretty handy, we've done some extensive remodeling and the house hasn't fallen down yet. I would be comfortable pulling the hoops off of one side to pop an end off. I took a flashlight, peeked in through the hold and the inside of the barrel looks mildewy. I'd say a cleaning is definitely in order.
> 
> At this point I'm leaning towards not toasting the barrel. From what I've gathered you can plane a barrel down and toast it at a later date. I'm thinking about keeping it simple for my first go around. Clean it, button up any leaks, throw in a couple of batches and sample frequently.



Sounds like a plan. 
You'll need a cooper's croze to plane the barrel. 
To remove the head. First loosen the bilge hoop. Then the quarter hoop then the head hoop. With the hoops (one side only) loosened you'll be able to remove the head hoop and then the head. Do not remove the bilge or quarter hoop. You'll mess up the barrel. 
With the head off you can powerwash the crap out of it. Don't use bleach or cleaners. 
When it dries you can plane the interior if you like. If its a Hungarian barrel the staves will be flat on the inside making it easy to plane with a regular Home Depot available hand plane. American and French barrels have curved staves making a croze a necessity. 

Good luck, keep me posted.


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## WI_Wino

The barrel hoops were already pretty loose. I putzed around with the barrel a little this morning. The head hoop slides right off. The bilge and quarter hoop are loose but still attached to the barrel. I wasn't able to get the head off yet. Looks like I"ll have to pull out the pins so the other hoops can slide up so I can pull out the head. More to come...













Also I found a useful link for basic barrel anatomy: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~flbbm/heritage/cooper/barrelmaking.htm


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## WI_Wino

Also I have a pound of BarolKleen that was laying around as well. Would I still want to use this after powerwashing and burning a sulpher strip? Or is BarolKleen supposedly a replacement for power washing?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/barolkleen-1.html


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## jimmyjames23

I've never used BaroKleen. The thought of lye in wood/wine freaks me out a little. 
Most guys around here (Niagara Region) powerwash, and sulphur. 

That barrel looks great. Pop those cleats out and get to work. 
Just remember...only remove the head hoop. 
Or you'll have firewood. 

PS for toasting I use a 500g bag of your favorite oak chips. But the darker they are... The faster they burn.


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## WI_Wino

You must not be a fan of lutefisk then. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk


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## ibglowin

Looks like its in pretty good shape!


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## WI_Wino

Thanks. The pictures don't show it but I think there may be some mildew/mold on the outside. I'll try to get a close up tonight. If I can get the head off, we'll really be able to see what I'm up against...

Good to hear other people think it's in good shape. I'm concerned as it just sat for several years.


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## Rocky

WI wino, I would pull the hoop nails, pound down all of the hoops to tighten them with a flat faced chisel, reset the nails, fill it with hot water and lots of k-meta (maybe 3 or 4 tablespoons), close it up, let it sit for a week or two and then rinse it well with clear water. Should be fine.


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## WI_Wino

No powerwashing as jimmyjames suggests? From what I've gathered reviewing the posts it seems that you have used oak barrels. Have you ever done anything but rinse?


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## WI_Wino

Got one head off of the barrel tonight. I had to take off both the head hoop and quarter hoop. With just the bilge hoop on I can see what you (jimmyjames) were talking about, the staves get a little wobbly. Anyway here are some pictures of the insides. To my untrained eye it looks like a ton of mildew. Is this bad for an oak barrel? Normal? Unheard of?











Mildew on the outside of the barrel


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## Rocky

If you take a good whiff at the bung opening, what type of odor do you get? Is it moldy? Vinegar? Oak? Wine? Something else? 

Quite frankly, there may be nothing that can be done with the barrel and you are better off getting a new one. If you want to try to recover this one, I suggest tightening up the staves as I suggested above first, adding hot water and K-meta solution (a little lemon juice would not hurt in the K-meta solution) filling the barrel. Let it sit for a week, drain it, rinse it with water and then do the sniff test again. If the off odors are gone and you smell only oak, you might have a chance at recovering the barrel. At this point, when it is airtight, I would burn the sulfur stick inside and let the gas work for a few weeks. Rinse it again with water (preferably hot water) and do another sniff. If the odors are gone and the confidence level is high, I would run a kit through it (probably not an expensive kit!) and see what happens.

Yes, I have used oak barrels from 6 gallon to 50 gallon (a long while ago). When we emptied a barrel and had the wine bottled, we just rinsed them with hot water until the "water ran clear" and let them dry. We had two holes in our barrels, one for the bung and one for the spigot so they dried fairly fast. We replaced the bung and stoppered the spigot opening and kept them until the next year. When the next year came, we filled them with water to make sure they did not leak and then burned a sulfur stick in each one before adding new wine.

I read back through your postings on this subject and it is not clear how old the barrel is or when was the last time it was used or how it was cared for when put away. In your shoes, (_and this is just I_) I would go for it with this reasoning: I have about a 50-50 chance of recovering the barrel; I can get a $50 bucket of juice and make enough wine to fill it; if it works, I have 5 gallons of wine and saved $150 on a new barrel, if it does not I have 5 gallons of vinegar and two planters for my patio.


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## jimmyjames23

Power wash it. 
Toast it. 
Put it back together. 
Swell it with water. 
Try the Barrelakleen 

Worth a shot. 
I've seen way worse.


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## Rocky

You got one head off, even better! Make up the k-meta and citric acid solution and scrub the inside and outside with a scrub brusk. Be careful not to collapse the barrel. Let it dry thoroughly and look for signs of mildew. Repeat as necessary then reassemble, tighten and seal the barrel. Burning the sulfur stick would be good insurance.


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## WI_Wino

The barrel was last used several years ago, say 3-4. I think it got rinsed, air drained for a little then bunged and set down in the basement.

Power washing will have to wait several weeks at a minimum I think. I'm sitting in front of the woodstove watching the outside temp drop steadily (down to 14 F). Spring what?

I think I'm going to start with hand washing with the citrix acid/k-meta solution to see if that cleans it up. The barrel doesn't smell too funky, kind of musty but also like a piece of firewood.


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## ibglowin

Here is my $0.02. Scrub it good on the inside with some Oxyclean and let it soak for a few hours. Rinse well. Reassemble. Fill it with a sanitizing solution made up from four teaspoons of Potassium Metabisulfite powder, and two teaspoons of Citric Acid for every 15 gallons of barrel capacity. Add enough water to fill the barrel, and bung the barrel tightly. Remove the bung every week or so and smell to make sure sulfur can still be detected inside the barrel, replacing the solution if necessary. Rinse the barrel well with water before refilling with wine.


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## WI_Wino

Finally got back around to this. Soaked and scrubbed the barrel in Oxiclean. Rinsed throughly with hot water and reassembled. Hammered the loops down so they were tight and nailed in the hoop nails. Filled it full of water and it was leaking something fierce. Hopefully it seals up soon.


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## ibglowin

Well it looks good at least! Hopefully it will swell and seal in a day or so.


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## robie

Wet it outside and inside twice a day. Just stay with it and it will very likely seal just fine.


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## WI_Wino

Well that didn't take long. I soaked the entire barrel in my utility sink for a day. Got home from work and emptied out the sink. Left the barrel full. No noticeable drop in water level after 10 minutes. So I emptied out half the water in the barrel, dumped in a tablespoon of k-meta, sloshed it around, and filled it back up. After an hour or so, no drop in water level. Looking good so far. I'm thinking of leaving it sit in the k-meta for a week or two to make sure it's good and sanitized. Then letting it air dry and burn a sulfur stick.


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## ibglowin

Excellent news!


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## WI_Wino

Yep, checked again this morning and there wasn't any noticeable drop in water level. Going to leave in the sink for a couple more days then pull it out and set it on a stand so I can really be sure there aren't any slow leaks.


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## jimmyjames23

Good job. 
Patience and care gets the job done.


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## WI_Wino

There looks like to be a slow leak on the bottom. Investigating solutions...


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## jimmyjames23

First solution is to keep full and keep hammering down the hoops with a cleat tool if you have it. 
Second solution is "splintering". A thin piece of oak to fill the gap. A little more difficult but worth it since you've come this far. 
Though the first method will probably work.


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## ibglowin

Get some barrel wax or canning wax and (warm it up a bit) and rub it in that problem spot.



WI_Wino said:


> There looks like to be a slow leak on the bottom. Investigating solutions...


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## WI_Wino

I let it sit for awhile now, still a slow leak. Emptied it out and tried to hammer the hoops some more, no movement. I think this stave might be cracked beyond repair. Ordering some canning wax tonight. 

View attachment 8141


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## ibglowin

Yea, thats a bad one for sure. Wax is like duct tape. Enough of it and you can fix just about any problem!


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## JohnT

Very interesting how that one broke like that. 

Any idea on how it might have happend?


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## WI_Wino

Not sure if it was like that when I got from my dad. Pretty sure I didn't drop it.


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## WI_Wino

ibglowin said:


> Yea, thats a bad one for sure. Wax is like duct tape. Enough of it and you can fix just about any problem!



Wax is arriving tomorrow. How does one actually go about this? Does the wood need to be dry before I rub it on? When you say heat it up, quick microwave? Or double boiler to melt it? I was thinking of starting simple and rubbing it like a crayon on the wood where I think the leaks are. Repeat until successful.


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## ibglowin

Did you order Barrel Wax or Canning Wax? I used canning wax as you can find it any grocery store or hardware store (Ace, True Value etc.) with no need to wait on shipping. Barrel wax is a mixture of bees wax and paraffin wax IIRC. Stays semisoft at room temp. Canning wax is just paraffin and hard as a rock at room temp but its nice as you can cut off a chunk and use a sharp corner edge and just work it into the the trouble spot back and forth. Sorta like coloring when you were a kid. You can warm it a bit in the microwave to soften it. Depending on the size of your piece try 5-10 secs. Just enough to soften a bit but not melt into a puddle obviously then just start working it into the crack or spot that has the drip. No, the wood doesn't need to be dry. Just work it in real well into the crack.


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## WI_Wino

Canning wax, not much time to run errands during the week with work and baby. I'll give that whirl, thanks.


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## WI_Wino

I rubbed wax along most of the bottom half of the barrel last night. Looking this morning there did not appear to be any leaking. Cautiously optimistic at this time...


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## ibglowin

It could take a couple of applications. Glad its holding for you.


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## WI_Wino

The counter I have the barrel sitting on was bone dry when I got home so I'm gaining confidence. Found an extra stopper that fits and airlock. Now, before I throw some wine in there, do I need to order and burn a sulphur stick? Or is having the strong k-meta/water solution in there for the past 2 weeks sufficient?


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## ibglowin

That should have done the trick.




WI_Wino said:


> Or is having the strong k-meta/water solution in there for the past 2 weeks sufficient?


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## jimmyjames23

Sulphur sticks are recommended.


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## ibglowin

Sulphur sticks are for dry barrel storage.


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## WI_Wino

I emptied out the water and k-meta solution from the barrel. Stunk like oak pretty good. I siphoned in my nero d'avola cabernet sauvignon. Will have to watch it and see. Barrel holds more than 5 gallons though. Have 3/4 of a gallon jug left (6 gallon kit). Will need to top off tomorrow.


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## ibglowin

Since this is an untoasted barrel are you going to add some toasted oak cubes to add some toasted oak flavor?


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## WI_Wino

I was going to wait and see before adding more oak to it.


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## WI_Wino

Took a taste test a couple nights ago, slight oak taste to it. Pleasant. Will be testing again in another week.


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## WI_Wino

First batch was in the barrel for 3 weeks or so. Have my second batch in the barrel now, going on 5 weeks. Tasted some last night. It doesn't taste quite right. This is a kit wine so roughly 6 gallons to start. 5 in the barrel left a gallon or so outside that I have been using for topping off. I did a side by side comparison and the wine outside the barrel is much better. So I'm thinking this may be a lost cause for now. Maybe I can toast it at a later date.


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## WI_Wino

Racked the sangiovese from the barrel and added some k-meta. I'm hoping time heals all wounds, this wine isn't very good right now. Filled with the barrel with a string k-meta/water solution. Next steps TBD...


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