# K2CO3 = Contamination ?!



## hector (Feb 14, 2013)

Hi there !

If you have a Must with a high TA , is adding for example K2CO3 for bringing the pH up a way to contaminate the Must ?!

Hector


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## winemaker_3352 (Feb 14, 2013)

It won't contaminate it - it will help lower the acid and raise the PH.

Just make sure you can CS along with it - it will help to drop out the TA and help remove the K2CO3 - Potassium Carbonate.

I like to use KHCO3 - Potassium BiCarbonate.


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## JohnT (Feb 14, 2013)

HMMMM is this k-carbonate or k-bicarb?

Is there a difference (I do not know the chem form of k-bicarb)


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## hector (Feb 14, 2013)

winemaker_3352 said:


> It won't contaminate it - it will help lower the acid and raise the PH.


 
In fact , I lost two batches because of contamination and I'm trying to find out the Cause . 

K2CO3 works for me and brings the pH up and releases each time lots of CO2 . But , as I said , the fruits I use for wine making have high TA and specially after adding the pectic enzyme , more acid is released in the Must . Therefore , before adding SO2 and after adding the enzyme , I have to add K2CO3 . 

How can you be sure that by adding a salt , you're not introducing some Bacteria into the Must ?

I also decided to add the pectic enzyme first after crushing , then waiting for 12 hours , then adjusting the S.G. and the pH , then addig SO2 and pitching the yeast 12 hours later . 

What do you think about that ?

Hector


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## novalou (Feb 14, 2013)

hector said:


> In fact , I lost two batches because of contamination and I'm trying to find out the Cause .
> 
> K2CO3 works for me and brings the pH up and releases each time lots of CO2 . But , as I said , the fruits I use for wine making have high TA and specially after adding the pectic enzyme , more acid is released in the Must . Therefore , before adding SO2 and after adding the enzyme , I always have to add K2CO3 .
> 
> ...



You "lost" two batches. What happened, tasted bad, smelled bad, looked bad? Maybe your assumption is wrong.

How do you sanitize your equipment, ect. Share more of your wine making process.


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## hector (Feb 14, 2013)

novalou said:


> How do you sanitize your equipment, ect. Share more of your wine making process.


 
I sanitize everything very carefully using 1% Solution of K-Meta which is made freshly by myself . 

My Process of wine making is as follows :

1- Crushing

2- adjusting the pH

3- Adding SO2

4- Waiting for 12 hours

5- Adding Pectinase

6- Waiting for 24 hours

7- Adjusting the S.G. and the pH

8- Pitching the yeast

9- Waiting for the Cap to form

10- Adding half of the yeast nutrient needed and after 1/3 sugar depletion , adding the rest . 

But , 2-3 Days after pitching , H2S and Ethyl Acetate were emitted strongly .

Hector


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## winemaker_3352 (Feb 14, 2013)

hector said:


> How can you be sure that by adding a salt , you're not introducing some Bacteria into the Must ?




In the sense that being contaminated means there is a presence of a minor and unwanted constituent- then yes.

But that doesn't mean it ruins it - the chem is used a lot in winemaking, baking, club soda, etc. The chem does what it is suppose to do - if the batch is ruined and not drinkable - it is not b/c you used KHCO3.

If it is unwanted - you don't have to add it in at all..

I use this all the time - it has never ruined a batch.

Did you add to much and make it flat??

If you don't CS with this - the KHCO3 will remain in the wine - you might be tasting that. Try CS for 4-5 weeks..


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## hector (Feb 14, 2013)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Did you add to much and make it flat??
> 
> If you don't CS with this - the KHCO3 will remain in the wine - you might be tasting that. Try CS for 4-5 weeks..


 
The pH was very low ( 2.6 - 3.0 ) and I had to use relatively large amount of K2CO3 to 

bring the pH up to 3.5 . 

Besides , it's not the matter of tasting . It's the bad smell of H2S and Ethyl Acetate . 

Do you realy mean that I can keep the Must for about a month before pitching ?!!

Hector


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## novalou (Feb 14, 2013)

hector said:


> The pH was very low ( 2.6 - 3.0 ) and I had to use relatively large amount of K2CO3 to
> 
> bring the pH up to 3.5 .
> 
> ...



H2S is probably caused by too much sulfites in your wine or stressed yeast. 

Cold stabilization (CS) is done after fermentation.


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## hector (Feb 14, 2013)

novalou said:


> H2S is probably caused by too much sulfites in your wine or stressed yeast.
> 
> Cold stabilization (CS) is done after fermentation.


 
I re-hydrate the yeast before pitching and add the nutrient and the fermentation temperature and the pH is controlled . So , I think there is no stress factor affecting the yeast . 

Specially "Ethyl Acetate" makes me sure that it is a contamination . 

Hector


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## winemaker_3352 (Feb 14, 2013)

Yes - CS is done after fermentation is complete.

Ethyl Acetate - nail polish remover smell - if you are in your primary fermentation - that smell comes from the DAP nutrient if you added that in.

Stir it in real well - H2S smell will aid from this as well.

I stir vigorously 2-3 times a day when I am in my primary...


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## hector (Feb 14, 2013)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Ethyl Acetate - nail polish remover smell - if you are in your primary fermentation - that smell comes from the DAP nutrient if you added that in.


 
The smell which comes after adding DAP is "Ammonia" ( NH3 ) .

According to Jack Keller's homepage , Ethyl Acetate is a sign of oxidation of Alcohol and/or contamination with Acetobacter . 

Hector


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## GreginND (Feb 14, 2013)

FYI

Potassium Carbonate - K2CO3 - the dipotassium salt of carbonic acid
Potassium Bicarbonate - KHCO3 - the monopotassium salt of carbonic acid

I thought it was best to use calcium salts with must prior to fermentation and potassium salts post fermentation for acid adjustment. Cold stabilization after potassium salt addition.

Either way I would not adjust acid much more than 0.1% TA. To much calcium will give a chalky taste and too much potassium will give a salty taste.

This in itself will not contaminate your wine. If you have acetobacter I would check your sanitation and sulfite levels.


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## winemaker_3352 (Feb 14, 2013)

hector said:


> The smell which comes after adding DAP is "Ammonia" ( NH3 ) .
> 
> According to Jack Keller's homepage , Ethyl Acetate is a sign of oxidation of Alcohol and/or contamination with Acetobacter .
> 
> Hector




Ahh - Hector - you are right - it is ammonia....

Sorry about that....


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## hector (Feb 15, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Potassium Carbonate - K2CO3 - the dipotassium salt of carbonic acid
> Potassium Bicarbonate - KHCO3 - the monopotassium salt of carbonic acid
> 
> Either way I would not adjust acid much more than 0.1% TA. To much calcium will give a chalky taste and too much potassium will give a salty taste.


 
Thanks Dear GreginND .

I have BSc in Chemistry , so I know the chemical Compounds . 

I have to add enough of that salt in order to bring the pH up to 3.3-3.5 , otherwise the yeast will 

be in stress and I don't want to add water , too . 

Besides , I should say that K2CO3 was the only food-grade salt used to reduce the acidity available to me and I didn't buy CaCO3 because of the chulky taste . There are no wine making supply shops where I live and it's not possible to order online , either . 

I can get the additives just from a Firm that works as the Distributor of a german chemical Company 

in my Country . 

Hector


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## hector (Feb 15, 2013)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Ahh - Hector - you are right - it is ammonia....
> 
> Sorry about that....


 
It's O.K.

You don't need to say sorry !


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