# Ph & TA Challenges



## whynot (Sep 15, 2014)

So first time not making from a kit, I got juice from CA (Cab). 

TA = 4.8 g/L or .48%
PH 3.27 ( steadied around 3.3 but kept ticking down during testing)
SG 1.088 @ 61*

So I need to increase the TA, and likely the PH also.. 

My thought: 

Shoot for a higher TA, which will allow me to increase the PH and still end up with a good TA? 

A combination of tartaric acid (raise TA, lower PH) and K-bicarbonate (raise PH, lower TA). 

The Math:
3.8g of tartaric acid = 1g/L increase in TA, shoot for ~7.0 g/L?
current: 4.8, increase by 2 g/L: 3.8g*2 = 7.6g, 7.6g * 6gal must = 45.6g tartaric acid to add

PH
1 g/L K-bicarb = 0.1 PH increase, so targeting 3.4PH, 2g*23L must = 46g of K-bicarb?

So 
1. does this make sense? 
2. the math seems ok, but will this work? will adjusting both TA & PH in opposites work, will these chemicals do what they are supposed to if both working at the same time? 

Any other thoughts or ideas?


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## ibglowin (Sep 15, 2014)

No, you can't have it both ways. Sorry but its not possible. You can not add Tartaric and Bicarbonate…….

If your numbers are accurate (and they seem completely out of wack to me) there is nothing you can do.

I would re-test TA and pH (please explain how you are testing in detail) and report back.


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## whynot (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks.. I'm using the SC300, and following their directions. 

5ml sample of wine w/ 15ml of distilled water, adding the TA reagent slowing till it hit's 8.2 Ph... take the quantity of reagent added from the dropper, *2 = TA g/L. in my case I put in 2.4 mL of reagent before it hit 8.2PH which = 4.8 g/L TA

PH is easy, you just stick in the probe and it gives you a reading.. (test this before testing TA) 

I'm sure there is some 'margin of error' I too was thrown off by the low PH & low TA.. but they are close enough I'm also considering just pitching the yeast and letting it work... the low TA will mean it will take longer to age..


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## ibglowin (Sep 16, 2014)

They don't always go hand in hand correlation wise (pH and TA) but usually they do. For example if you have a high say 3.8 pH must you usually have a low TA say 4.5 g/L. Then if you add some acid your pH should drop down lower and your TA should rise up. Sometimes one will move but not the other. I get Syrah and Petit Syrah from Lodi, CA region and every year the pH will not budge much from ~3.85 or so even with multiple additions of acid. I might get it down to 3.7 if I am lucky but then I am at the very top of the acceptable TA charts.

Remember pH and TA measure two totally different things also.


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## whynot (Sep 16, 2014)

So I tested again, cal'd the tool.. now I have 3.01 PH, 5.2 g/L TA (2.6ml of reagent added to hit 8.2)... while 5.2g/L is on the low side I think PH is more important and need to get that up to 3.3, 3.4? 

thoughts, and recommendations on product to use to do so?

It should be noted I brought the bucket home yesterday and was cool, tested the SG @ 61*.. it's been sitting in the basement "warming up" so I'm expecting that has some effect as well (tartaric acid is unstable at low temps)?

Ugh.. reading up and k-bicarb, isn't predictable on PH, requires bench testing...maybe just cold stabilization will help? of course with low PH, I have to hope the yeast will do it's work..


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## ibglowin (Sep 16, 2014)

I am having a real hard time believing that pH. Do you have a back up pH Meter or know anybody who has one? How much experience do you have with the Vinmetrica? I would put a call in to them and go over the calibration routine with them to make sure your doing everything right, you have all the correct soltions and are using them properly etc. proper calculations? Sometimes bad probes get shipped out. Fresh reagents?


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## whynot (Sep 16, 2014)

the reagents are the only thing I would question, they are in month 6, however, cal on the PH is pretty simple, put it into a solution and it reads it.. I mean it's a 4.01PH solution, and the probe reads 4.01, if the reagents were bad I'd get a bad reading. 

I've been using them for 6 months now, testing my SO2 (which is the same process as testing TA, but with different probes and reagents). for my barrel aging..


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## JohnT (Sep 16, 2014)

Just to put m own 2 cent in (and in case you did not alreay know this).. 

The difference between TA and PH is that TA measures the weight of acid (in grams per liter) and PH measures acid strength. Your TA is most likely .48 gpl since 4.8 gpl is astronomically high. 

The acid measured in TA is actually a combination of different acids that are present in your wine, and in varied amounts. PH takes into account the strength of the different acids present to give you a better picture. 

Weight VS strength... This is why they are different. 

If you were to add any acid, that would change BOTH the TA and the PH. If you add bicarb, this too would change BOTH TA and PH. 

Given the choice, my advise it to act on your PH as this is a better picture of what state your wine is currently in. IF PH is low, and TA is low, I would assume the wine to be too acidic.


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## whynot (Sep 16, 2014)

Thanks, my thought is the same PH is more "important"

.48% = astronomically high? Everything I've read says .60%-.70% is target, with .50%-.55% being a minimum? Am I'm missing something?


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## JohnT (Sep 16, 2014)

whynot said:


> Thanks, my thought is the same PH is more "important"
> 
> .48% = astronomically high? Everything I've read says .60%-.70% is target, with .50%-.55% being a minimum? Am I'm missing something?


 

I am saying that 4.8gpl is high. .48gpl is a little low.


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## Treeman (Sep 18, 2014)

TA is always a bit awkward to deal with because folks report it with different units. So a 4.8 grams per Liter measurement is the same as 0.48 grams per 100 mL or 0.48%.

I would also suggest you focus on pH for now. If possible, get a lower pH standard when you buy more. I like to use 3.0 rather than 4.01.

The numbers if correct are out of whack. Is this central valley fruit? Any chance you can get some over ripe, high pH, high brix merlot, Syrah, or Zin to coferment? You might ask your supplier if they have any.


Cheers!


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## rhoffart (Sep 18, 2014)

Jumping in to follow thread. Keep the updates coming.


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## whynot (Sep 19, 2014)

So with wacky results I decided against adjusting the wine pre-fermentation, I put in some yeast nutrient, energizer, and some Lavlin 212, and it's bubbling away. After it's done I will likely cold stabilize then test.. hopefully things will even out, if not I can adjust or blend at that point.


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