# Tale of 2 Malos



## porkchopmessiah (Nov 5, 2019)

So I currently have 6 gal of zin and 15 gal of cab .
I just did a chromo sheet and can see the zin almost done but the cab hasn't budged...
I have ruled out he temp since both are at the same temp 68 degrees
Ph is within tolerances as per instructions.
Both rehydrated at same time and appropriate nutrients add to both after inoculation with vp41
Have since reinnoculated with the white labs available locally with no action after 2 weeks.

I am going to check my so2 tonite as this is where I think I may have an issue..
The zin was done with bm4x4, the cab with rc212 which I have read can produce high so2 level..
Has anybody ever dealt with this issue with this yeast? If my test shows I'm right I've read splash racking will help, just curious if any body else has had this issue and how u resolved it..
Current ph of the cab is 3.48, i have ch16 being delivered Wednesday....


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## Ajmassa (Nov 5, 2019)

Some wines just be stubborn like that. And actually I’ve read BM4x4 is more of a pain historically for mlf. (And merlot). 
With all variables the same who knows. My only suggestion would be to run down that entire checklist to help move things along. 
1. Temps up. 68° is low for mlf. I sometimes use a heat pad. Gets me around 75° steady. 
2. Stir the lees 2x a week
3. Adding some oak helps the bacteria latch onto something and not get buried 

I try to keep so2 At crush to a minimum (20ppm ish) or avoid altogether. 
Hopefully the tests tonight will give you some clarity


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 5, 2019)

How would you regulate so2 at crush?,
Already bought oak, and removed heat pad on second inoculation bc I thought I might have cooked the firstbatch....after the wife and kid go to bed I'll post test results and such.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 5, 2019)

I don’t mean I regulate the so2 produced in AF. I just don’t typically add any At crush if all looks good. And if I do my target is around 20-25ppm. So far I’m at 100% success rate coinocculating. . 
I did sequential on my juice this season. No Kmeta added at all. Added ml 2 weeks ago. Chroma is in the jar now taking a baseline test.
*used Avante yeast and VP41 ml


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## Bubba1 (Nov 5, 2019)

I have a slow MLF going right now myself with my all grape sangiovese I did with rc212 and vp41 mlf. Maybe there's something up with the strain of bacteria this year?


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## stickman (Nov 5, 2019)

Even if the free SO2 checks ok, it's the bound SO2 that also affects the MLB. How much SO2 did you add before fermentation? What about starting gravity? The various conditions are somewhat additive, high bound SO2, high ABV, low pH, low nutrients, and low temperature, all have to be considered together as negative factors.
In some stubborn cases, you can get the ML to complete if you add a little bit of wine from the batch that recently completed (as long as SO2 hasn't been added yet). Also note that there will always be a malic spot on the chromatogram if you added to the batch any acid blend that contains malic acid, as only the L-malic portion can be metabolized.


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## Joe B. (Nov 6, 2019)

I have the same problem. Co-inoculate with B7 Direct 1 day after pitching yeast and no problem with my Zin and Grenache. Waited after primary fermentation completed for the Syrah and a second batch of Grenache used VP41 with all the nutrients and nothing after 3 + weeks temps @ 70 stir twice a week. Just reinoculated with B7 Direct last night. This is only my second season as a winemaker so I could have done something stupid and just don"t know it.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2019)

Just did 2 wines with all variables the same aside from varietal. 
Avante yeast. Vp-41 after AF. Hydrated with ACTi-ml and a dose of opti-malo. Temps around 75°. Added 2 weeks ago.
1st Test finished last night. Cab shows no malic spot. Barbera shows bright spot. 
Some wines just take longer. I’ll test again after thanksgiving. Still way too soon to take any action IMO.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2019)

Also would like to point out the importance of an early baseline test. Even though one wine appears complete the other may just be moving slower— which is not a bad thing at all. 

Fast doesn’t always = good. The new style co-innocculation is great for home winemakers but fundamentalists prefer a nice long MLf. The thought is ya might lose some of the magic that occurs during those few months. 
So before assuming it’s not working- no harm in waiting longer to truly confirm no progress before taking action. 

As long as you’re topped up and don’t have some crazy high ph then no need to sweat the lack of sulfite IMO.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 6, 2019)

I am with you @Ajmassa If your wine is topped up and "normal" ph (3.4-3.8) there is absolutely no need to worry about not having the sulfites while Malolactic is taking place. Think to the old French wineries who don't even inoculate for MLF and just let it happen naturally the next spring in the barrel.


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## CDrew (Nov 6, 2019)

Ajmassa said:


> Just did 2 wines with all variables the same aside from varietal.
> Avante yeast. Vp-41 after AF. Hydrated with ACTi-ml and a dose of opti-malo. Temps around 75°. Added 2 weeks ago.
> 1st Test finished last night. Cab shows no malic spot. Barbera shows bright spot.
> Some wines just take longer. I’ll test again after thanksgiving. Still way too soon to take any action IMO.



I think you are holding out on us. This is the first I heard you made wine this year. What's the story? Thought you were taking a break? What grapes, what did you make?


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 6, 2019)

Ok, so my so2 is 10, so that kinda shoots my theory down I guess...
Here is my test sheet, the ones that say non are the gallons that were not innoculated, at any rate I just dosed it with ch16 and oak cubes....


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2019)

CDrew said:


> I think you are holding out on us. This is the first I heard you made wine this year. What's the story? Thought you were taking a break? What grapes, what did you make?



I did lay low for the most part. Though when everything became available my old man asked me to go with him to pick up his juice, which is tradition. Our local spot in south Philly always has the previous year’s wine tapped from the barrel, along with all the Italian meats/cheeses and bread. And ya just shoot the breeze with other winemakers while picking up and perusing the equipment. 
Hard to walk out empty handed. I grabbed a couple juice buckets on a whim- (a cab and a barbera) because, well why not? (And the reason I went sequential ml) Those buckets can make some decent vino and age well. Unfortunately I just couldn’t commit to the typical “life gets put on pause- large grape batch” this year.

*it was a decision we discussed and agreed upon together. And when I got home that day with juice she says “I totally was expecting to see a truck full of grapes to be honest.”
Lol. Nope. I was a good boy


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> View attachment 57452
> Ok, so my so2 is 10, so that kinda shoots my theory down I guess...
> Here is my test sheet, the ones that say non are the gallons that were not innoculated, at any rate I just dosed it with ch16 and oak cubes....



VP-41
White labs
CH-16

3rd times the charm? Or 3 strikes and you’re out? We will know soon enough!


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 6, 2019)

I'm not opposed to making this personal, if I have to go cell for cell, molecule to molecule...


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## Ajmassa (Nov 12, 2019)

I did a 2nd test 1 week after the 1st one (2nd test also including my dads Sangiovese we inoculated). 
Just posting to show how much of a difference another week made. The Cab and Barbera are at 75° and stirred 2x a week. The Sangiovese basically untouched and at 70°. 
Still staying the course. Will test again after thanksgiving. Then likely rack, sulphite, add some oak and put em all to bed for the winter.


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 12, 2019)

Just rubbing it in at this point


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## Ajmassa (Nov 12, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> Just rubbing it in at this point



Lol. No! What I meant was that based on my first test it might have seemed like mlf didn’t take —with one showing progress and 2 not. 
And a week later with absolutely zero visible activity it shows minimal malic. 
Just to say early tests and no visible activity doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not working.


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 20, 2019)

so im gonna kick this to you all bc ive have to admit defeat on the cab MLF...however the zin finished...

should I just finish the cab (sulfite and rack) as normal or is there another avenue?
ph on the cab is 3.54, the zin is now 3.84....its worth noting that I was planning on blending the with the bulk of the zin, which if done 66/33 would result in ph 3.62...which would eliminate some of my playing with the zin to bring down the ph...
given my limited palette, they taste fine so far...
currently the cab is on oak cubes for about 2 weeks now, haven't oaked the zin yet


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## Johnd (Nov 20, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> so im gonna kick this to you all bc ive have to admit defeat on the cab MLF...however the zin finished...
> 
> should I just finish the cab (sulfite and rack) as normal or is there another avenue?
> ph on the cab is 3.54, the zin is now 3.84....its worth noting that I was planning on blending the with the bulk of the zin, which if done 66/33 would result in ph 3.62...which would eliminate some of my playing with the zin to bring down the ph...
> ...



If you haven't yet sulfited the zin, and plan on blending them, why not go ahead and get your blend done and see if the resulting wine will go through MLF with the active bacteria still in the zin?


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 20, 2019)

Johnd said:


> If you haven't yet sulfited the zin, and plan on blending them, why not go ahead and get your blend done and see if the resulting wine will go through MLF with the active bacteria still in the zin?


that had actually occurred, to me, though id only be blending 6 out of 15 gall cab, and the ph post blending was pretty much where I wanted it assuming it didn't complete mlf once blending..but I think bringing ph down in that case easier that bringing up..but point taken....don't really know what I wanna do so the more input from everybody hopefully the better final call...


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 20, 2019)

Ajmassa said:


> Some wines just be stubborn like that. And actually I’ve read BM4x4 is more of a pain historically for mlf. (And merlot).
> With all variables the same who knows. My only suggestion would be to run down that entire checklist to help move things along.
> 1. Temps up. 68° is low for mlf. I sometimes use a heat pad. Gets me around 75° steady.
> 2. Stir the lees 2x a week
> ...



also looking ahead to spring when I try this again, im gonna ditch the sequential and do co inoculation....ifs avoiding so2 at crush do you add ur yeast straight away to supplant any wild yeasts?


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## Ajmassa (Nov 20, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> also looking ahead to spring when I try this again, im gonna ditch the sequential and do co inoculation....ifs avoiding so2 at crush do you add ur yeast straight away to supplant any wild yeasts?



I didn’t add any the first couple years. But still waiting a day because I also added enzymes for extraction. Pickup Saturday morning. Work all day. Enzymes added that afternoon. Yeast added Sunday afternoon. 

But last couple grape wines I tested the must and added for a 25-30ppm target. With co-innoc and 100% success rate. Keep in mind I still have no clue what I’m doing. [emoji16]


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## Johnd (Nov 20, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> also looking ahead to spring when I try this again, im gonna ditch the sequential and do co inoculation....ifs avoiding so2 at crush do you add ur yeast straight away to supplant any wild yeasts?



A little different than AJ, I add my enzymes to each fermenter as I crush / destem grapes into them. The must is tested / adjusted as necessary afterwards, then I add my yeast. My must is normally pretty chilly as the grapes come in refrigerated, and it takes a couple of days for the yeast to get rolling, the enzyme is in there doing its thing the whole time. If my fruit is good, I don't add any SO2 to the must, and pitch my MLB / nutrients as soon as AF gets going.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 20, 2019)

Johnd said:


> A little different than AJ, I add my enzymes to each fermenter as I crush / destem grapes into them. The must is tested / adjusted as necessary afterwards, then I add my yeast. My must is normally pretty chilly as the grapes come in refrigerated, and it takes a couple of days for the yeast to get rolling, the enzyme is in there doing its thing the whole time. If my fruit is good, I don't add any SO2 to the must, and pitch my MLB / nutrients as soon as AF gets going.



Looking back I’ve only added so2 to must once. I do remember existing l levels much lower then expected (Chilean). The so2 threw me off my game with timing. Since it states so2 weakens enzymes and needs to be spaced out ‘x’ hours. Really didn’t have good reasoning. Still finding my way

Routine’s been crush - enzyme- then yeast next night or whenever temps creeped up high enough. Maybe I read too much. Because that thought of “well everyone else does it. You should too” never fully goes away. In spite of not encountering issues and even successfully running an all-natural ferment. Which took noticeably longer to start compared to cultured yeast.


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## mbleill (Nov 21, 2019)

I routinely tape rubber seed starting mats to the sides of my carboys and tanks. The mats stay a constant 80 deg F and will warm up the wine in the containers to about 75 deg F and kicks off MLF relative quickly. The ambient temperature in my winery is about 62 to 65 deg F. 

AMAZON Link: https://www.amazon.com/Ohuhu-Seedli...ords=seed+starting+mats&qid=1574359741&sr=8-6


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 10, 2019)

Ajmassa said:


> I did lay low for the most part. Though when everything became available my old man asked me to go with him to pick up his juice, which is tradition. Our local spot in south Philly always has the previous year’s wine tapped from the barrel, along with all the Italian meats/cheeses and bread. And ya just shoot the breeze with other winemakers while picking up and perusing the equipment.
> Hard to walk out empty handed. I grabbed a couple juice buckets on a whim- (a cab and a barbera) because, well why not? (And the reason I went sequential ml) Those buckets can make some decent vino and age well. Unfortunately I just couldn’t commit to the typical “life gets put on pause- large grape batch” this year.
> 
> *it was a decision we discussed and agreed upon together. And when I got home that day with juice she says “I totally was expecting to see a truck full of grapes to be honest.”
> Lol. Nope. I was a good boy


@Ajmassa , could you share that spot in South Philly for future reference? I'd like to check it out.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 11, 2019)

Mario Dinis said:


> @Ajmassa , could you share that spot in South Philly for future reference? I'd like to check it out.



Sure. It’s called Procacci Bros. They are a produce distributor selling seasonal wine grapes since the 40’s! Every harvest they turn the warehouse into a winemaking depot with grapes, juice, equipment etc. Its down in the industrial area by the stadiums. Very old school joint. 
There’s also Gino Pintos in south Jersey with much more options from different areas. They also do spring harvest juice & grapes beginning around April.
Btw- don’t mention one to the other. It’s a feud straight from a Scorsese movie!

https://m.facebook.com/procacciwinegrapes/


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 11, 2019)

Ajmassa said:


> Sure. It’s called Procacci Bros. They are a produce distributor selling seasonal wine grapes since the 40’s! Every harvest they turn the warehouse into a winemaking depot with grapes, juice, equipment etc. Its down in the industrial area by the stadiums. Very old school joint.
> There’s also Gino Pintos in south Jersey with much more options from different areas. They also do spring harvest juice & grapes beginning around April.
> Btw- don’t mention one to the other. It’s a feud straight from a Scorsese movie!
> 
> ...


Thanks, LOL, I promise I won't mention. Looks like a good place. Have to take a trip there. @AdegaAguiar , we have to check this place out. It's in South Philly.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 11, 2019)

Mario Dinis said:


> Thanks, LOL, I promise I won't mention. Looks like a good place. Have to take a trip there. @AdegaAguiar , we have to check this place out. It's in South Philly.



Who’s your current supplier? Is it Corrados?

I purchased Corrados grapes for the first time last year for my throwback “family red” blend. Very cool shop. Loads of equipment. And no complaints about the grapes. Right on par with Procacci. OP @porkchopmessiah gets his stuff from there too.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 11, 2019)

Ajmassa said:


> Who’s your current supplier? Is it Corrados?
> 
> I purchased Corrados grapes for the first time last year for my throwback “family red” blend. Very cool shop. Loads of equipment. And no complaints about the grapes. Right on par with Procacci. OP @porkchopmessiah gets his stuff from there too.


I started with them, Corrado's, but these past two years I've been buying my buckets of juice at Europa Pombalense in Elizabeth. So far so good.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 11, 2019)

Mario Dinis said:


> I started with them, Corrado's, but these past two years I've been buying my buckets of juice at Europa Pombalense in Elizabeth. So far so good.



Quick google search seems that Europa sells the same juice and grapes as Procacci. Regina juice and Regina & Pia grapes. Or maybe even get it from Procacci. I know all these places like Procacci, Corrados, and pintos redistribute to local shops in the area.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 11, 2019)

Ajmassa said:


> Quick google search seems that Europa sells the same juice and grapes as Procacci. Regina juice and Regina & Pia grapes. Or maybe even get it from Procacci. I know all these places like Procacci, Corrados, and pintos redistribute to local shops in the area.


Yes, Regina is what I have bought at Europa Pombalense. So far I'm pleased with it.


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## porkchopmessiah (Dec 17, 2019)

I'll be heading down to Pintos in the spring for sure....If anybody else is, perhaps a meetup is in order..

I tried to rack all my cab and zin, having given up on malo in the cab
I wound up blending 6 gall of cab with 9 zin, and keeping about 3 gal zin and 8 gallon of cab unblended.

I just had hernia surgery so needless to say racking was harder (had to wait til wife went to work)....wound up using vac pump to pull on empty demijohns with 2 ported bung...it was slow as hell but it got the job done


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## Ajmassa (Dec 17, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> I'll be heading down to Pintos in the spring for sure....If anybody else is, perhaps a meetup is in order..
> 
> I tried to rack all my cab and zin, having given up on malo in the cab
> I wound up blending 6 gall of cab with 9 zin, and keeping about 3 gal zin and 8 gallon of cab unblended.
> ...



Ah that’s a bummer to hear about the surgery. 
Hope ya feel better and heal up quickly. 
Not understanding the pump explanation btw. How is what you explained different than your typical setup?
For the cab I’d have done the same thing too. Can only fight so long unprotected before starts becoming a liability. A little age can still work wonders regardless of the malo imo. 
As far as the Pintos meetup goes— that can be tricky. Pickup day is a long day for me as a one man band. But if timing worked out would be cool. Maybe a coffee or quick bite to eat at a nearby diner, exchange some bottles then hit up Pintos. Definitely prefer beforehand so my grapes aren’t cookin in the back of the truck.


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## porkchopmessiah (Dec 18, 2019)

Lol...breakfast would probably be better, last time I left here at like 6am to get there by 8....but I'm prob gonna get blueberry bushes down there more toward the summer so I'll be passing thru the area again....but either way is a long way off


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## Ajmassa (Dec 18, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> Lol...breakfast would probably be better, last time I left here at like 6am to get there by 8....but I'm prob gonna get blueberry bushes down there more toward the summer so I'll be passing thru the area again....but either way is a long way off



Well if your gonna get em anywhere might as well be there. After all, it is the bluberry capital of the world!


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