# Planting this spring.



## 1lucky (Nov 11, 2018)

Hi everyone,

We are super new to planting, as in we haven't planted anything yet. We've ordered 8 vines from Ty Ty Nursery (2- 2 year Pinot Noir, 2- 3 year Sauvignon Blanc, 2- 3 year Merlot and 2- 3 year seedless variety of table grapes) and they are scheduled to be delivered in mid March. We live in So Illinois, not far from St Louis, zone 6B. I've tested my soil and the PH is around 6.5, have a nice south facing hill to plant them on, we have purchased the galvanized wire, one way vices and the 4x4's to build their trellis. Our plan is planting the vines with 10 feet on each side for the cordons, which would make our rows 40ft long, the plants 20 feet apart and the rows will be 10 feet apart. 

This is the entirety of our plan at the moment, but I have a few questions and looking for suggestions or tips for improvement, the only thing that can't be changed is the plants are on their way and even that can probably be changed.

Questions:

Has anyone use Super Absorbent Polymer when they planted their new vines? Ours will be bare root and 2-3 years old. 

Would you try to adjust your PH level? Like I said ours is 6.5 and that seems to be just on the upper limits of tolerable levels.

We have a nice turf of grass on the hill we are planting on now, we don't want to pull it all up so we were planning on building a 1ft by 1ft raised bed around the base of the vine so we can continue to cut and trim around the plants, more for aesthetic reasons than anything else. Do you see any issues with this?

With the 3 year plants; what is the likelihood that we will produce grapes this year? What about the 2 year plants?

Thoughts?


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## 1lucky (Nov 11, 2018)

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Here is a pictView attachment 52133
ure of the planting area.


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## Masbustelo (Nov 12, 2018)

I would say, regarding the Ph, that you shouldn't worry about it. Since the root zone for grapes can be quite deep you would need to alter tons of soil to an unknown depth.


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## KevinL (Nov 12, 2018)

I can't say I've ever heard of anyone planting Merlot or Pinot Noir in So. Ill. From what I can see they are rated to Zone 7. I have a small planting of Riesling in my vineyard to try it out (rated zone 6, I'm zone 5 so one zone off like you're looking to do). The vines are surviving and growing each year, but so far there just hasn't been enough time in the season to ripen the fruit. 

This article calls out that Merlot and Pinot Noir are not commonly planted in the state because they aren't hardy enough. https://web.extension.illinois.edu/cfiv/homeowners/031129.html

The plants may survive, but I'm not sure you'll get a long enough growing season to ripen any grapes should you choose to leave the flowers on this year. It isn't too far out of the realm of possibility that next winter we'll get a crazy winter that blows far enough south to kill them back to the ground. I've heard of some people trellising their vinifera vines low and then cutting them off of the wire and burying them every season to increase bud survival. Too much work for me...

As far as raised beds around each vine, I don't think there will be too much of an issue. Don't have anything like that around mine, and I cut around the base of mine, and then come by and weed by hand by the trunks. I think you'll still have to do some hand weed pulling by the base of your vines anyway.


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## salcoco (Nov 12, 2018)

20 feet between plant seems excessive. four foot cordon are sufficient thus 8ft between plant will work. Any grass or weed etc around the vine will rob nutrients from the vine. Nominal vineyard planting is a 2 ft wide bare ground swath down the row with the vine centered on the . if desire now is the time to kill the grass to this width and till the ground now preparing for spring. 

vine should be pruned to two bud when you plant let the vine grow at least three years before attempting any crop. roots must be established for the vine to flourish. roots may need to be trimmed as the may be two foot long. make a good hole with a post hill digger if possible a least 12 inch in diameter scour the sides of the hole to allow root penetration. if possible set up a drip system for irrigation before planting. 

I would suggest checking with Winemaker magazine I believe they offer a tutorial on backyard vineyard. it will be helpful in planning, planting and growing grapes.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 12, 2018)

I'm z6 a little west of St Louis. I think you will struggle with those varieties. 

I agree with @salcoco, you don't need that much space between vines. Most everyone around here spaces vines 8' apart (4' cordon each way) with TWC system. 

Don't try for any grapes year one and don't count on any year two either. If you are able to fruit those varieties the books say count on small 1/2 harvest year three and typical harvest year four.


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## CK55 (Nov 13, 2018)

I would recommend VSP trellis as all of those are upright growing, i would also like to know what rootstock you are on, As european vines have to be grafted unless you are in sand or you have a high probability of phylloxera


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## Masbustelo (Nov 13, 2018)

I don't think it's been said in this thread, that it's probably a good idea to visit nearby vineyards to investigate which varieties are being grown successfully in your area. Also you can investigate which trellis system is being used. For example, with a downward trailing variety it would not be recommended to use VSP. Variety, terrain, and climate have much to dictate regarding trellis choices.


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## CK55 (Nov 13, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> I don't think it's been said in this thread, that it's probably a good idea to visit nearby vineyards to investigate which varieties are being grown successfully in your area. Also you can investigate which trellis system is being used. For example, with a downward trailing variety it would not be recommended to use VSP. Variety, terrain, and climate have much to dictate regarding trellis choices.


Merlot, Pinot, and Sav Blanc are all upright growing vines VSP is the best for productivity. I have my opinion on this based on personal experience and the fact that the majority of local wineries use it.


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## wxtrendsguy (Nov 13, 2018)

In IL you are far better off planting hybrids, Traminette comes to mind maybe Marechal Foch for a red. Very good producers and cold tolerant and most important of all since you are a new grape grower less prone to disease. Please note I did not say disease free...to learn about controlling black rot and downy mildew which are like to be your two biggest disease threats. 
Cut back to two buds when you plant, if at the end of the 2019 growing season the cane that grew is less than pencil thickness cut it back again to the two lowest buds, might seem extreme but the new cane that grows from that in 2020 will shoot to the moon and be nice and thick. Then in the 2nd spring since planting or 2021 cut the cane at your wire and allow 4 canes to grow from the top of the trunk, removing all canes below. Essentially in year 3 season you want a trunk and 4 upright fingers developed. In the following year year 4 you will have canes for 2 cordons and can start getting a decent crop. Good luck.


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## CK55 (Nov 13, 2018)

wxtrendsguy said:


> In IL you are far better off planting hybrids, Traminette comes to mind maybe Marechal Foch for a red. Very good producers and cold tolerant and most important of all since you are a new grape grower less prone to disease. Please note I did not say disease free...to learn about controlling black rot and downy mildew which are like to be your two biggest disease threats.
> Cut back to two buds when you plant, if at the end of the 2019 growing season the cane that grew is less than pencil thickness cut it back again to the two lowest buds, might seem extreme but the new cane that grows from that in 2020 will shoot to the moon and be nice and thick. Then in the 2nd spring since planting or 2021 cut the cane at your wire and allow 4 canes to grow from the top of the trunk, removing all canes below. Essentially in year 3 season you want a trunk and 4 upright fingers developed. In the following year year 4 you will have canes for 2 cordons and can start getting a decent crop. Good luck.


You should ideally get full crop year 3. Just saying. Another cold Hardy example is Cabernet franc, it's so cold tolerant it will grow in snow.


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## wxtrendsguy (Nov 13, 2018)

Cabernet Franc might grow in IL but the biggest problem you'll have is cold hardiness..Cab Franc will make it to about -15F but that is just barely. Usually you'll see significant bud damage at -5F and cane damage at -10F. Any lower and you are talking death in increasing amounts...it may not happen in the year after but eventually crown gall will get em. Also the wild swings in temperature during the winter in the Midwest will wreak havoc on deacclimation which will actually make them even more susceptible to cold damage. Trust me I know I replaced 2000 vines after the winter of 2013/2014.


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## CK55 (Nov 13, 2018)

wxtrendsguy said:


> Cabernet Franc might grow in IL but the biggest problem you'll have is cold hardiness..Cab Franc will make it to about -15F but that is just barely. Usually you'll see significant bud damage at -5F and cane damage at -10F. Any lower and you are talking death in increasing amounts...it may not happen in the year after but eventually crown gall will get em. Also the wild swings in temperature during the winter in the Midwest will wreak havoc on deacclimation which will actually make them even more susceptible to cold damage. Trust me I know I replaced 2000 vines after the winter of 2013/2014.


That's not fully accurate, it's as tolerant as Riesling is. Research shows that's cab franc can go to -40 and live without significant damage.


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## Johnd (Nov 13, 2018)

Whose research are you citing??? Here’s some actual research.......


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## CK55 (Nov 13, 2018)

I can't rember which university but it was one on the east coast,will pull the article to it and Link it. I have it bookmarked.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 13, 2018)

To be fair, CK didn't specify -40 F or -40 C !  (Wow, two metric jokes in one day!)

(If you don't get it, Google "google temperature converter".)


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## CK55 (Nov 13, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> To be fair, CK didn't specify -40 F or -40 C !  (Wow, two metric jokes in one day!)
> 
> (If you don't get it, Google "google temperature converter".)


I use imperial system.


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## ibglowin (Nov 13, 2018)

My $0.02 but its all about the GDD (Growing Degree Days) and I just don't think you will have the heat units to ripen Vinifera in your area. You will struggle to keep the vines from dying from Winter damage every year, then if you do get a crop you will more than likely end up watching your hard work wither on the vine in the Fall and not come close to being fully ripe. Honestly I would go back to square one and plant some of the best Cold Hardy Hybrids on the market such as Marquette, Corot Noir, Petite Pearl for reds and La Crecsent, La Crosse, St. Pepin for a really good white. You won't have to worry about Winter damage and you won't have to worry about unripe grapes at the end of the season either.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 13, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I use imperial system.



So do I, but why don't you disabuse yourself and click on the link I provided and find out what -40 F is in Celsius?


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## cmason1957 (Nov 13, 2018)

I will provide this data point. There is one vineyard that I know about in Missouri, somewhere in the north western part of the state that grows some Cabernet Franc. There used to be three, but the other two pulled out the vines. It might grow in Illinois, but it will be a hard go.


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## Johnd (Nov 13, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> So do I, but why don't you disabuse yourself and click on the link I provided and find out what -40 F is in Celsius?



Me thinks he much prefers abuse........


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## CDrew (Nov 13, 2018)

CK55 said:


> That's not fully accurate, it's as tolerant as Riesling is. Research shows that's cab franc can go to -40 and live without significant damage.



So CK55, how much cab franc have you grown in Illinois? Do you know that Riesling is "tolerant"? Do you even know what it is? You keep appealing to higher authority ("Research shows") without quoting sources. You continue to post advice about things you know absolutely nothing about. Dude, stop posting. Everything you post is drivel, speculation, grandiose delusions, or pure nonsense. Most of it, the latter. Yet you post like you actually know, which is a cardinal sin when you actually don't. Because you don't have any knowledge or practical experience with wine making. I would hate to think someone took your advice as fact. You are a legend in your own mind and internet fraud. You are 22 years old with no experience with basically anything.

You never can remember your sources, have data, or post hard facts. You conveniently forget your sources, and despite being called out multiple times for outright lying, continue to post like you have something to offer, which you don't. My recommendation: post only things you have personal experience with. Like wine that went bad. Do not post things you read vaguely, somewhere, elsewhere, that you can't remember and can't quote. No one appreciates it, and this forum suffers from it.


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## VillaVino (Nov 13, 2018)

Pick up the book From Vines to Wines and you will have all your vineyard questions answered. I read it many times when I started my vineyard. As for varieties, Marquette makes for a very good wine. I have Lacresent but they are the biggest PITA grapes to grow. They make a good wine but the effort is quite high. Brianna is easy to grow and makes a good wine. I live on the 44th parallel in Wisconsin. Good luck.


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## wxtrendsguy (Nov 16, 2018)

So back to the OP..can you grow Cab Franc in southern IL? I checked the last several years of weather records in St Louis including the very cold winter of 2014-2015. The verdict is I think you can grow it and it will likely ripen as your last spring frost is around April 15 and first fall frost in late October. That should be enough season to get a crop in. The lowest temps in the last several years has been -6F at St Louis so its probably ok to plant, if you wanted to try something else Chardonnay might work too. You are going to want to learn about leaf pulling and managing your canopy. What type of site are you planting on. A hill? Soil type? and etc...

I see a winery south of you called Blue Sky Vineyard grows cab franc. Go pick their brain...


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## balatonwine (Nov 17, 2018)

wxtrendsguy said:


> I see a winery south of you called Blue Sky Vineyard grows cab franc. Go pick their brain...



Good advise. And I would add, go to other wineries that offer American hybrid wine. Why? Because the discussion has been mostly about *if* one can plant the vinifera varieties (Pinot noir and Cabernet franc) there, but not so much if one *should* do so. It all comes down to Terroir. The vinifera may create a wine, with a lot of work given their susceptibility to fungus and other issues which are less an issue for many hybrids, but in the end may not create really a very good wine. So a side by side taste comparison would be ideal. Maybe a hybrid will make a better wine in that area. And, really, it should be about the quality of the wine, not some overly pretentious desire to grow a particular variety, especialy if doing so creates an inferior wine or if one is not prepared to do all the work vinifera may need to make a really good wine.


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## Dennis Griffith (Nov 17, 2018)

Ok, I'm throwing in my 2 cents here. Currently I'm growing America, Buffalo, and Concord. Next spring I'm planting more America, Sherdan, and Cab Franc. I've been researching the various varieties that will grow in Ohio, Zone 6A (similar to your location in Illinois). I've put together a cheat sheet (below) that I've been making. Based on research that I've done and discussions here on the forum, I'll planting Cab Franc Spring of 2019 and Marquette in Spring of 2020. I'm also interested in growing Petite Pearl. If I listed grafted, I plan on using the 101-14 rootstock. Here's the data:

America red 4 early season TWC resistant
DeChaunac red 5 mid-season TWC Mostly resistant
Dornfelder (grafted) rose 6 early season VSP susceptible
Frontenac red/rose 3 late season TWC somewhat resistant
Geneva Red red 4 mid-season TWC susceptible
Leon Millot red 4 early season TWC Botrytis prone
Marechal Foch (grafted) red 5 mid-season TWC mostly resistant
Marquette red 3 early season TWC resistant
Petite Pearl red 4 late season  TWC highly resistant
Sabrevios rose 3 early season TWC resistant


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## JimInNJ (Nov 17, 2018)

Dornfelder can make a deep red wine. Ripens a full month before Cab Franc. I do not know how the cold hardiness compares.


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