# White 5 Gallon Buckets... Food Grade?



## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Ok... I know we are supposed to use only "food grade" plastic containers... and I know that almost (if not all) used food grade buckets that you get from restuarants (man those dumpsters are hard to climb out of) are white.
Question: Are the white buckets that the hardware stores sell food grade? I called my local hardware store and asked them... they said they did not know, but they did know that the black buckets were not food grade.
Input?


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2009)

Look for HDPE on the bottom of the bucket. That should be food grade.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Good info... thanks Tom.


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## cpfan (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom said:


> Look for HDPE on the bottom of the bucket. That should be food grade.


I don't think that HDPE guarantees Food Grade. HDPE is a type of plastic, and I believe that there are MANY formulations of HDPE.

The following is my recollection of a forum post a couple of years ago. Ropak, a Canadian manufacturer of pails, was asked about some of their pails. Their response was specific to certain pails, and ONLY the white ones were food grade.

I don't believe that his can be generalized to all manufacturers. Despite what is treated as 'common knowledge' by people on the 'net.

Steve


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2009)

The HDPE is the only plastic that will not leach chemicals in the wine. I disagree about the color. There is a gray BRUTE HDPE bucket that I know is used as a fermentor.


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## smurfe (Nov 30, 2009)

I doubt very much you will get an answer form them. You would probably have to get that answer from the manufacturer. This can be tough to do though as the contact info is rarely on the container. What I do is normally look for an HDPE symbol on the container and use it. Here is an article though that stresses that not all HDPE plastic is indeed food grade. It even lists articles to avoid including the white plastic buckets at a hardware store. I will say though that I have used buckets they say not to use such as the kitty litter buckets. I use at my own risk though. 

Read these and compare what you read to the symbols on the buckets and you should have your answer. Make sure to read the controversy about the re-use of PET plastic which everyone assumes is the ideal plastic to use. These articles state not to re-use PET plastic. Also remember that the Better Bottles many of use use and insist one uses over a water cooler plastic carboy are indeed made of PET plastic. We know those work great so who do you believe? 

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/plastics.html#foodgrade

http://suchismitamajumder.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/how-plastic-grading-works/


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## cpfan (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom said:


> The HDPE is the only plastic that will not leach chemicals in the wine. I disagree about the color. There is a gray BRUTE HDPE bucket that I know is used as a fermentor.


My comment was based on Ropak's response to somebody asking about a specific Ropak bucket. They do not make Rubbermaid Brutes. And just because they are "used as a fermenter" does not make them food grade.

Steve


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## cpfan (Nov 30, 2009)

Smurfe:

In one of the discussions of PET plastic, somebody posted a link to a list of 'different' PET plastics. Hundreds (maybe even a thousand) formulations. Each with it's own specific properties.

Just steps away from me are two different brands of water bottles. Both have the '1' PET recycling code. One is a flimsy plastic that 'crinkles' when pressed. The other (Aquafina from Pepsi), a thicker, stronger plastic. My Better Bottles are made of an even thicker, stronger plastic. Easy for me to believe that they have much different properties. Yet all three are PET.

The discussions about the various plastics has been going on for years on this and other wine making forums. I do not believe that a simple generalization can be made that 'xxx' plastic is good/bad because of the number of different formulations.

As I understand it, food grade plastic contains no recyled material whatsoever. It is new plastic with approved additives (including colours, I imagine) only. As a result it is more expensive. So the 'cheap' buckets in the hardware store (no matter what colour/plastic) are not food grade.

And we haven't even discussed how this plastic behaves when in contact with alcohol.

Steve


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Wow...Looks like I'm gonna have to forget about saving a dollar and go for the good stuff... unless I can find a restuarant or diner that can help me out.


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2009)

William,
Both CP and Smurf are right. I look at it as "Why take the chance". I think all of us woulsd say "buyer beware".
Get an approved bucket and you will not have to "toss" a good batch of wine.


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## Wade E (Nov 30, 2009)

Id feel fine about using 1 for a primary if they were white, had the HDPE and had a #1 or #2 on it, anything lower then that and id leave it for something else.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom... you won't see this old Hillbilly tossing any wine... good or bad. You should taste some of the "likker" I've drank over the years. Of course, I'm more selective now... I put it in a real glass before I hold my nose and turn it up.
Just kidding... you are absolutely right. I'm going to the homebrew store this weekend and get some more buckets, carboys, and airlocks.


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## cpfan (Nov 30, 2009)

Wade:

HDPE means recycle code #2. IE they mean the same thing. So I hope you never find one that says HDPE and #1.

BTW, if you are picking up a used pail, make sure that you know what was stored in it. Food stuffs should be OK (except pickles) but cleaners? Beware.

Steve


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Id feel fine about using 1 for a primary if they were white, had the HDPE and had a #1 or #2 on it, anything lower then that and id leave it for something else.



Wade... now look what you did... I turned the bucket upside down to see if it was food grade and all of the wine must spilled out on the floor.
Wow... that would be a nightmare, wouldn't it? I am going to be very careful what type of buckets I use in the future.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

cpfan said:


> Wade:
> 
> HDPE means recycle code #2. IE they mean the same thing. So I hope you never find one that says HDPE and #1.
> 
> ...



Will do... thanks Steve.


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2009)

William said:


> Tom... you won't see this old Hillbilly tossing any wine... good or bad. You should taste some of the "likker" I've drank over the years. Of course, I'm more selective now... I put it in a real glass before I hold my nose and turn it up.
> Just kidding... you are absolutely right. I'm going to the homebrew store this weekend and get some more buckets, carboys, and airlocks.


My son lives in N. Carolina and said he will bring up some special "local moonshine" when he comes up in December.
I bet you know where to get sum ...


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom said:


> My son lives in N. Carolina and said he will bring up some special "local moonshine" when he comes up in December.
> I bet you know where to get sum ...



You can bet your bippie... and I'm talking pure stuff... 190 proof run from a sugar wash in a 15.5 gallon keg with a reflux tower on top. If I can only remember where I saw that contraption.
Last N.C. shine I had was so bad the guy had to put apples in it to smooth it out. Shame.


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## Wade E (Nov 30, 2009)

Almost every plastic is actually food grade and used to hold food with the exception of #7 here. Even recycled plastics can be food grade as long as certain FDA protocols are followed. don't think there's an issue using any HDPE buckets for brewing as long as you're sure what was previously in them.

1 PETE (polyethylene terephthalate) some waterproof packaging
2 HDPE (high density polyethylene) Milk, detergent and oil bottles, toys and plastic bags
3 PVC (polyvinyl chloride) Food wrap, vegetable oil bottles, bubble wrap
4 LDPE (low density polyethylene) Many plastic bags, shrink wrap, garment bags
5 PP (polypropylene) Refrigerated containers, some bags, most bottle tops, some carpets, some food wrap
6 PS (polystyrene) Throwaway utensils, meat packaging, protective packaging
7 Other (mixed plastics) No recycling potential - must be landfilled.
(Society of the Plastics Industry - SDI)


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

I have always been careful with my brewing, and I think I'll just get some buckets that I can be sure about... tell me about your Zinfandel from grapes. I almost married the girl who introduced me to Zinfandel... good thing I didn't... she's rich... would have been a b**ch trying to live with her and all of that $$$.


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

I've been using a 5 gallon mayo bucket since day one. Don't know why, but after I brought it home( Iwashed it twice through the dishwasher at the restaurant first) I poured a box of Baking Soda in there and filled it with boiling water. Rinsed it good and have been using it everysince. It is only for a primary, so obviously it nots going to hold anything for long, for a secondary, I would be absolutely sure you use something designed for alcohol, Better Bottles, etc.

Soo..I brew in a bucket and drink from a mason jar. I may be part hillbilly myself!!!

Troy


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## Wade E (Nov 30, 2009)

Ok, CP, youre right and I havent looked at the bottom of my stuff for a long time but PET is #1, HDPE is #2 and PVC is #3


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> I've been using a 5 gallon mayo bucket since day one. Don't know why, but after I brought it home( Iwashed it twice through the dishwasher at the restaurant first) I poured a box of Baking Soda in there and filled it with boiling water. Rinsed it good and have been using it everysince. It is only for a primary, so obviously it nots going to hold anything for long, for a secondary, I would be absolutely sure you use something designed for alcohol, Better Bottles, etc.
> 
> Soo..I brew in a bucket and drink from a mason jar. I may be part hillbilly myself!!!
> 
> Troy



Heck, you may have more Hillbilly in you than you know. I am sitting here looking at 3 cases of Mason jars... guess I'll have to figger out somethin' to put in 'em, eh?


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom says, fill a mason jar with the fruit of your choice, top it off with grain alcohol, don't know where you would find that HB? Cap it and forget about it for a while. Look for his recipe for raspberry cello.
Troy


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## Tom (Nov 30, 2009)

Yep butt, also use it for Steamed Juice


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> I've been using a 5 gallon mayo bucket since day one. Don't know why, but after I brought it home( Iwashed it twice through the dishwasher at the restaurant first) I poured a box of Baking Soda in there and filled it with boiling water. Rinsed it good and have been using it everysince. It is only for a primary, so obviously it nots going to hold anything for long, for a secondary, I would be absolutely sure you use something designed for alcohol, Better Bottles, etc.
> 
> Soo..I brew in a bucket and drink from a mason jar. I may be part hillbilly myself!!!
> 
> Troy



Troy... next year I'll trade you some venison for some moose, elk, or caribou. I usually get 2 or 3 on the hill behind my house... shot one last year sitting on a chair in the kitchen with the back door open. She... I mean He... was delicious.
I would do it this year, but I'm still recuperating from a head-on collision... a drug dealer from 2 counties over lost control and crossed over into my lane. On a 2 lane in WV there's not much room to dodge that kind of a mess. I didn't turn him in... actually didn't know he was a dealer until after the wreck. I'm gonna get his insurance good... broke 11 ribs and fractured my sternum in multiple places. Not my 1st rodeo... seems I can't have a fender bender... it's always a doozie... or else it's nothing.
Anyway... my dog has to look all around to see how many deer are in the yard before she chooses a spot to do her stuff.
Life is good...


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> Tom says, fill a mason jar with the fruit of your choice, top it off with grain alcohol, don't know where you would find that HB? Cap it and forget about it for a while. Look for his recipe for raspberry cello.
> Troy



That'll work... but sugar alcohol is cleaner. The best lookin' gal around here comes up to see if I can help her find something to put in her jar of cherries from time to time. That's all I am going to say...


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Tom said:


> Yep butt, also use it for Steamed Juice



Use what for steamed juice?


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

I still have a couple gallons of Raspberries I picked last summer that are burning a hole in my freezer. I don't have a copper tube contraption available so I will probably have to use Everclear when I get around to it.

Sorry about your injury, bad enough to get hurt, but when it's someone elses fault makes it that much worse.

Couple months ago I was helpin a couple fellas move a big air compressor tank and the guy in back lost his grip. It ended up on my foot! It was an accident, but if he had listened to our instruction, thing may have been a different outcome. Just put a shoe on last week for the first time in a while.

Being hurt wasn't the worst part, I had to turn down a job installing antennas for $42.00/hr. That hurt worse then the broken bones in my foot.

But we'll make it.

Life IS good!!
Troy


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah, I read about your missing out on that good job on another thread... That Everclear sure is expensive.
You aren't going to make a nice batch of raspberry wine with them?


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

I would have loved to make wine with them, but it was a crappy raspberry year and thats all I ended up with, summer before that I slayed em, but that was before I got hooked on making wine, sure did make some fine pancake syrup though. LOL Takes alot of berries to make wine with.

Did make some this year with low bush cranberries, and they were hard to catch this year too. Had a hell of a time getting the ferment started, but the gang helped me through it by teaching me how to make a yeast starter instead of just rehydrating the yeast and adding it to it.

Made a batch out of the wild rose petals(from the rose hip bush), it was great, next year I will hire a bunch of kids to collect a whole bunch. It will be the first time I make a huge batch. Like 20 gals or so.

I'll probably use a large Rubbermaid trash can to ferment it in.

Troy


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

HB, if I am part hillbilly, part hippie, and part Alaskan. Does that make me a "Hillipeekan"? LOL


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah, these guys sure know what they're doin' with the wine... that raspberry syrup sounds delicious... hot flapjacks with raspberry syrup on a cold morning... yum.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> HB, if I am part hillbilly, part hippie, and part Alaskan. Does that make me a "Hillipeekan"? LOL



You are a Tundra Turkey... lol.


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

Gobble Gobble there bro'! LOL Yeah the syrup was outrageous, used raspberries, blueberries, and low bush cranberries mixed. If I knew about wine making then it would have been just as good.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> HB, if I am part hillbilly, part hippie, and part Alaskan. Does that make me a "Hillipeekan"? LOL



I was in high school and college in the 60's and 70's... turned down a ride to Woodstock... it rained like hell the whole time, but everybody still talks about it as being the greatest event of the era for the movement. You should talk to someone who was there... what they can remember was a nightmare.
How old are you? Were you there? You know what I mean.


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

Just turned 43. Lots and lots of hippies(and vets from the era here), so I have met several people who were at Woodstock and they agree. Been around them so long I am part hippie myself.LOL I may be a young hippie, but a hippie none the less.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> Gobble Gobble there bro'! LOL Yeah the syrup was outrageous, used raspberries, blueberries, and low bush cranberries mixed. If I knew about wine making then it would have been just as good.



Troy... speaking of "Gobble, Gobble," last Thanksgiving (of all days) my wife and I were sitting out back and counted 41 turkeys walking along the hill behind the house. It was so beautiful that I never once thought about reaching in the door and grabbing a gun... well, maybe I did think about it once or twice, but I didn't do it.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Nov 30, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> Just turned 43. Lots and lots of hippies(and vets from the era here), so I have met several people who were at Woodstock and they agree. Been around them so long I am part hippie myself.LOL I may be a young hippie, but a hippie none the less.



Gotcha... time knows no bounds... more power to you bro. Always a hoot to chat with you... 
Think I'm gonna watch the last part of this football game... Nawlins' is whippin' the Patriots...
Catch you tomorrow, Troy.


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## arcticsid (Nov 30, 2009)

We had a thread going and hunting came up. I have been here over 30 yrs and spend several of those living in the bush. I have killed thousands of animals, but don't think I have ever hunted in my life. I , like you, dig just seeing them. Never understood why Turkeys don't make it here. They tried to transplant Pheasants here a while ago, they didn't make it, but the Foxes and the Martens were happy.LOL

They are ready to relaese Wood Bison back into the wild here next year. They were here like 100 yrs ago. If the crazy Natives don't blast them all, we may have them repopulated in the wild again.

Heres a thread for you to jump into.
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5206

Troy


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## upper (Nov 30, 2009)

Hey William,boy howdy you got a two lane driveway? You go get em..............Upper


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## rawlus (Dec 1, 2009)

back to the fermenters...
my standard 6.5gal pail+lid is HDPE
my better bottles are PETE
and my white 10gal brute that i do most of my fermentations in now is LDPE with NSF Std 2 indicated. (NSF/ANSI Standard 2: Food Service Equipment
Equipment commonly known as 'fabricated food equipment': kitchen, bakery, pantry and cafeteria units, and other food handling and processing equipment including tables and components, counters, shelves, sinks, hoods, etc.) with the Brutes, white, grey and yellow are Std 2 food Grade while the red and black are lesser Std 21 (which is approved for food waste and refuse)


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

upper said:


> Hey William,boy howdy you got a two lane driveway? You go get em..............Upper



Nossir... the only way into my place is up a single lane coming up the hill. You can't see my place from the road, but I can see down to the river. If you get real lost and bumble up my drive, you will be greeted. Last ones to bumble were 4 guys drinking store bought whiskey straight from the bottle. We had a little talk... One of them had a pistol... I had an assault rifle... haven't seen anyone else up here since. Nice and quiet up here.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

rawlus said:


> back to the fermenters...
> my standard 6.5gal pail+lid is HDPE
> my better bottles are PETE
> and my white 10gal brute that i do most of my fermentations in now is LDPE with NSF Std 2 indicated. (NSF/ANSI Standard 2: Food Service Equipment
> Equipment commonly known as 'fabricated food equipment': kitchen, bakery, pantry and cafeteria units, and other food handling and processing equipment including tables and components, counters, shelves, sinks, hoods, etc.) with the Brutes, white, grey and yellow are Std 2 food Grade while the red and black are lesser Std 21 (which is approved for food waste and refuse)



When you say "brute" do you mean a big bucket? That sounds great... would love to get my hands on a couple of those.
I shy away from colored buckets.
Take care...


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## arcticsid (Dec 1, 2009)

HB, how much did you get for his pistol?LOL!! Brute trash cans HB, the greyish ones. Got a brand new 20 gal in the shed bought ready to burn a whole in the wall, it's waiting for spring. They say they work great for a fermenter, and they're pretty cheap too.


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## rawlus (Dec 1, 2009)

brute is a Rubbermaid® Brute. from their commercial products line, the 10 gallon is an ideal size for wine batches. I got mine from a restaurant supply, apparently outback steakhouse around here uses them for food prep. larger ones, usually gray (which is also food grade) are often avail at hardware big box stores, janitorial supply places, etc. you could probably get the 10gal size online too... valley vintner sells them i think.

the 10 gallon is only slightly taller than a 6.5 gal fermenter, but it has two nice beefy handles on the sides, the lid is a loose lid (no gasket), but it makes it easier for me to do daily pushdowns or whatever and then i just transfer to secondary that much sooner.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> HB, how much did you get for his pistol?LOL!! Brute trash cans HB, the greyish ones. Got a brand new 20 gal in the shed bought ready to burn a whole in the wall, it's waiting for spring. They say they work great for a fermenter, and they're pretty cheap too.



I let him keep it... by the way, it was a nice one... 44mag revolver... looked like a Red Hawk. I think these old boys knew I was a Nam vet during Tet and were just testing me... hope I passed their test.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

rawlus said:


> brute is a Rubbermaid® Brute. from their commercial products line, the 10 gallon is an ideal size for wine batches. I got mine from a restaurant supply, apparently outback steakhouse around here uses them for food prep. larger ones, usually gray (which is also food grade) are often avail at hardware big box stores, janitorial supply places, etc. you could probably get the 10gal size online too... valley vintner sells them i think.
> 
> the 10 gallon is only slightly taller than a 6.5 gal fermenter, but it has two nice beefy handles on the sides, the lid is a loose lid (no gasket), but it makes it easier for me to do daily pushdowns or whatever and then i just transfer to secondary that much sooner.



That is ONE NICE BUCKET! By the way... I finally got around to checking out my white 5-gallon hardware store specials... they have the number 2 in a triangle with "HDPE" under the 2. Maybe I lucked out... but they are only 5 gallons each.


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## xanxer82 (Dec 1, 2009)

William said:


> I let him keep it... by the way, it was a nice one... 44mag revolver... looked like a Red Hawk. I think these old boys knew I was a Nam vet during Tet and were just testing me... hope I passed their test.



Did you at least get the whiskey? 

Or was that swill?


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## arcticsid (Dec 1, 2009)

It was store bought shee-eet
He got to take it, along with him, I assume.


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## rawlus (Dec 1, 2009)

the brute bucket was ~$15 or so for the 10gal one. great deal. lid was an extra $5.


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## xanxer82 (Dec 1, 2009)

Yeah, I like a couple of storebought whiskeys. Haven't many from other sources though.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

xanxer82 said:


> Did you at least get the whiskey?
> 
> Or was that swill?



Troy is correct... I believe it was Jack Black, which I absolutely despise!


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## xanxer82 (Dec 1, 2009)

Haha yeah that stuff is pretty bad. I'd rather have the original jack over that.


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## arcticsid (Dec 1, 2009)

Yeah that Jack Black, guys got a bad rap, even way up here! Maybe you should have took his pistol, dumped out his booze, then whipped up his butt! Oh oh, can we say butt in here? Should have said assets.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

rawlus said:


> the brute bucket was ~$15 or so for the 10gal one. great deal. lid was an extra $5.



Yessir... those are nice buckets... ever think about adding a spigot?


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> Yeah that Jack Black, guys got a bad rap, even way up here! Maybe you should have took his pistol, dumped out his booze, then whipped up his butt! Oh oh, can we say butt in here? Should have said assets.



Yeah... they probably deserved it, but it might have just been a mistake... and there were 4 of them... I would have had to shoot them, and I absolutely despise all of the paperwork that goes with that.


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## arcticsid (Dec 1, 2009)

I was sorta thinkin bout mounting one over my bunk, adding a spigot AND a hose!

Save having to get up for a refill!

Hey, long winters here, gotta consider all the angels.

LOL

Troy


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## arcticsid (Dec 1, 2009)

In all seriousness HB, alot of people use these Rubbermaids for fermenters. My local home brew shop wants like 35 skins for a plastic 6 gallon fermenting bucket. Hog wash! I could buy two 15 gallon rubbermaid trash cans for that. One to ferment in, and one to wonder what goes in it next.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> I was sorta thinkin bout mounting one over my bunk, adding a spigot AND a hose!
> 
> Save having to get up for a refill!
> 
> ...



Now there's an idea... don't forget the shutoff valve.


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

xanxer82 said:


> Haha yeah that stuff is pretty bad. I'd rather have the original jack over that.



Absolutely!


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## Hillbilly Bill (Dec 1, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> In all seriousness HB, alot of people use these Rubbermaids for fermenters. My local home brew shop wants like 35 skins for a plastic 6 gallon fermenting bucket. Hog wash! I could buy two 15 gallon rubbermaid trash cans for that. One to ferment in, and one to wonder what goes in it next.



Like Will Smith said when he was flying that alien fighter plane in "Independance Day,"... "I have GOT to get me one of these."


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