# WE vs RJS



## dswendell (Jun 18, 2020)

Hey all, 

I’ve only ever made WE eclipse series reds, they switched obviously to a new brand (private reserve?) Not sure if it’s good or bad.

Anyway, looking for my annual kit, I’ve never tried an RJS kit. I was looking at the 
Italian Super Tuscan online.

Pros vs cons? Another recommendation?

Thanks!


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## TonyP (Jun 18, 2020)

I've gone back and forth between WE and RJS and I find them to be about equal. However, under WE's new product structure, I'm finding RJS to be a slightly better value. In choosing, I look for the kit that best fits my need and whether that's WE or RJS is secondary. For example, I'll soon be doing an RJS Argentina Trio which doesn't have a comparable WE. One exception to what I've said is in the LEs where I've never tried RJS. I've found WE LE kits to be almost uniformly very good.

BTW, I made the RJS Super Tuscan and found it to be excellent. I saved some for 2+ years and it was great.


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## Brian55 (Jun 19, 2020)

dswendell said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I’ve only ever made WE eclipse series reds, they switched obviously to a new brand (private reserve?) Not sure if it’s good or bad.
> 
> ...


If I were to make just one annual kit. The RJS Super Tuscan would be one of my top choices. Consistently excellent.

I'll let others be the test pilots for the revamped WE line up. Until I hear positive reports from reliable sources, I'm going all RJS for the time being.


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## joeswine (Jun 19, 2020)

Either kit has its good points I've never descovered really bad profiles on either.
I've made a ton of kits from $40 to $200 dollars , it's all subjective to taste, nothing more.


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## Rocky (Jun 20, 2020)

I have made wine from both manufacturers and in my opinion, RJS is superior. That said, I have made most of my wine from WE kits because my supplier only carried that brand and the prices were really reasonable. In almost every case, I do some "enhancing" to the WE kits.

Regarding RJS Super Tuscan, I would say it is one of the best wine kits that I have ever made. Looking back through my notes, I see no other enhancements to this kit than a little more oak. (I think I may have been a squirrel in a previous life.) BTW, the best price I have seen on this kit is here:

Wine Ingredient Kit - En Primeur Winery Series - Italian Super Tuscan 

Note that there is free shipping to the lower 48.


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## dswendell (Jun 20, 2020)

Rocky said:


> I have made wine from both manufacturers and in my opinion, RJS is superior. That said, I have made most of my wine from WE kits because my supplier only carried that brand and the prices were really reasonable. In almost every case, I do some "enhancing" to the WE kits.
> 
> Regarding RJS Super Tuscan, I would say it is one of the best wine kits that I have ever made. Looking back through my notes, I see no other enhancements to this kit than a little more oak. (I think I may have been a squirrel in a previous life.) BTW, the best price I have seen on this kit is here:
> 
> ...


This is great info! And a great price too. Thanks so much!


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## vineyarddog (Jun 20, 2020)

Rocky said:


> BTW, the best price I have seen on this kit is here:
> 
> Wine Ingredient Kit - En Primeur Winery Series - Italian Super Tuscan
> 
> Note that there is free shipping to the lower 48.


Home Brew Ohio store on Amazon has it for $153.57 w/Prime shipping!


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## bkisel (Jun 20, 2020)

I've a preference for RJS over WE. However because of where I shop I do 2-3 times more WE kits than RJS. Guess my preference for RJS isn't that strong. 

BTW, the RJS Super Tuscan is one of my favorites!


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## joeswine (Jun 20, 2020)

Super Tuscan, bring the SG to 14/15% 
Add I cup of SunMaid raisins to the primary along with 2cups of oak(any kind) . And one bag of grape skins.( Vinco)
In the secondary powder tannins and let nature do its thing for a few months, then rack and let rest for a year.
Get ready for staying away to be good this one needs patience.


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## rustbucket (Jun 20, 2020)

I haven't made the En Primeur Winery Series - Italian Super Tuscan. But, an 18 liter En Primeur kit, as I recall, means that it has 16 liters of juice and 2 liters of grape skins.


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## joeswine (Jun 20, 2020)

So your almost there in creating the profile.


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## SpoiledRotten (Jun 21, 2020)

I’m still trying to get a grasp the one kit per year line from the OP. Is that all the wine you make in a year, or do you mean that you make the rest of your wine out of grocery store juice? I buy 10-15 kits a year, 5 per order, so it seemed odd to me that one kit would last a year.


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## joeswine (Jun 21, 2020)

To each his or her own.
Asking for advice on what,when and how is what we're here for.,I for one since 2007 and before that on the old forum have heard it all time and time again , so I say the question was ???


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## wood1954 (Jun 21, 2020)

So what’s so good about super Tuscan? Smooth tannins, easy acid, great mouthfeel, good flavor? I see so much about it
on the forum but no actual description.


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## TonyP (Jun 22, 2020)

wood1954 said:


> So what’s so good about super Tuscan? Smooth tannins, easy acid, great mouthfeel, good flavor? I see so much about it
> on the forum but no actual description.



In my case, I can't comment on a comparison versus WE as I haven't made the WE. Instead, I judge a wine against my expectations and general experience. That goes to the heart of your post because each individual will have their particular preferences, which is why I drive a Chevy instead of a Ferrari.

I'm curious to see what others express. In order for me to be able to compare specific wines, I need a live / side-by-side comparison which isn't possible. To do so, would require me to make two equivalent wines at the same.


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## GaDawg (Jun 22, 2020)

TonyP said:


> That goes to the heart of your post because each individual will have their particular preferences, which is why I drive a Chevy instead of a Ferrari.


The reason I don’t drive a Ferrari may have something to do with a $250,000.00 price tag...


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## DizzyIzzy (Jun 22, 2020)

Rocky said:


> I have made wine from both manufacturers and in my opinion, RJS is superior. That said, I have made most of my wine from WE kits because my supplier only carried that brand and the prices were really reasonable. In almost every case, I do some "enhancing" to the WE kits.
> 
> Regarding RJS Super Tuscan, I would say it is one of the best wine kits that I have ever made. Looking back through my notes, I see no other enhancements to this kit than a little more oak. (I think I may have been a squirrel in a previous life.) BTW, the best price I have seen on this kit is here:
> 
> ...


Rocky, can you describe the characteristics of that wine for me? Thanks,............................Dizzy


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## DizzyIzzy (Jun 22, 2020)

Brian55 said:


> If I were to make just one annual kit. The RJS Super Tuscan would be one of my top choices. Consistently excellent.
> 
> I'll let others be the test pilots for the revamped WE line up. Until I hear positive reports from reliable sources, I'm going all RJS for the time being.


Brian, Can you describe the characteristics of that wine for me? Thanks..............Dizzy


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## DizzyIzzy (Jun 22, 2020)

wood1954 said:


> So what’s so good about super Tuscan? Smooth tannins, easy acid, great mouthfeel, good flavor? I see so much about it
> on the forum but no actual description.


Wood, that's *exactly* what I want to know................what does it taste like, and what makes it such a superior wine? That's alot of $$ to pay for a kit unless you know what to expect. Any feedback for us would be great.......................Dizzy


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## Darrell Hawley (Jun 22, 2020)

GaDawg said:


> The reason I don’t drive a Ferrari may have something to do with a $250,000.00 price tag...


That's a lot of wine to give up just to drive a Ferrari.


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## Brian55 (Jun 22, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Brian, Can you describe the characteristics of that wine for me? Thanks..............Dizzy


Buy a commercial bottle or three, to see if it's something you enjoy.


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## dswendell (Jun 28, 2020)

SpoiledRotten said:


> I’m still trying to get a grasp the one kit per year line from the OP. Is that all the wine you make in a year, or do you mean that you make the rest of your wine out of grocery store juice? I buy 10-15 kits a year, 5 per order, so it seemed odd to me that one kit would last a year.



haha I use to make several a year. Been out of the game for a year or two. So I’m just easing back into it. Ill make this one, we’ll see what life is looking like by the fall. I plan on bulk aging this for awhile. May start another!


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## SpoiledRotten (Jun 28, 2020)

I usually order 5 kits at a time. Have several here, and after seeing the Wine Lovers stir, I jus ordered 6 from them. Maybe I’m set for the rest of the year.


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## Sailor323 (Jun 30, 2020)

I haven't made the Reserve or Private Reserve by WE. I don't like the WE Classic because they combine Sulfite and Sorbate in a single packet and I never use Sorbate. Not really a big deal since a always have K-meta on hand anyway.


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## Jon Hunwick (Jul 12, 2020)

Chiming in here as a long-time WE maker. 

RJS and Winexpert use nearly the same amount of juice. The former is still Grape Juice _from Concentrate,_ and the latter _Concentrate_. 

They no longer add water beforehand to the Winexpert kits. This means that the water you use matters more, but otherwise it means the kit is more portable. It's a common issue that people don't recognize that the bigger kit isn't necessarily better quality. Worried that WE will backpedal because people can't get over the change. 

Personally I've found the quality more consistent than ever in WE, and RJS is a bit over the place, though I prefer their marketing.


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## Rocky (Jul 12, 2020)

_"RJS and Winexpert use nearly the same amount of juice. The former is still Grape Juice from Concentrate, and the latter Concentrate.

They no longer add water beforehand to the Winexpert kits. This means that the water you use matters more, but otherwise it means the kit is more portable. It's a common issue that people don't recognize that the bigger kit isn't necessarily better quality. Worried that WE will backpedal because people can't get over the change." _

Jon, may I ask where you obtained this information? Are you saying that RJS begins with a concentrate and then adds water to it in order to increase the volume? I somewhat agree that "the bigger kit isn't _necessarily_ better quality" but I also believe, as Hugh Keough did "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that is the way to bet.” 

I must respectfully state that it does not agree with my experience.


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## GaDawg (Jul 12, 2020)

I generally believe Occam’s Razor


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## Jon Hunwick (Jul 13, 2020)

Rocky said:


> _"RJS and Winexpert use nearly the same amount of juice. The former is still Grape Juice from Concentrate, and the latter Concentrate.
> 
> They no longer add water beforehand to the Winexpert kits. This means that the water you use matters more, but otherwise it means the kit is more portable. It's a common issue that people don't recognize that the bigger kit isn't necessarily better quality. Worried that WE will backpedal because people can't get over the change." _
> 
> ...



I received the information from our representative at Winexpert. By all means I am making the assumption that RJS follows the same formula that Winexpert used to, and the way Winexpert used to make the kits is so: they start with the concentrate then add water, as you mentioned before.

If RJS doesn't do this, then I would be impressed but would also wonder how such a large kit could ferment properly with such a high concentrate, without going off like a must from a 100% juice company like Mosti Mondaile.


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