# Barrel Fermenting a White Kit with Surlies



## robie (Aug 25, 2011)

I have been planning this "experiment" for awhile now. I just got my Vadai 6-gallon barrel, so I am ready to go.

*The purpose of this actually is multiple:*
1), To produce a kit Chardonnay that hopefully will be even better than what it would be if fermented in the normal manner in a plastic fermenter bucket and stabilized/clarified immediately after secondary fermentation is completed.

2), Learn and experiment with the surlies/battonage process to improve a white wine. The "experts" say this process should seriously improve the final result of the white wine, even a kit wine.

3), Prep the barrel for aging red wines by first fermenting wine in the barrel.

4), Enjoy the very best hobby I have ever had in my entire life.

...

I have read several articles that indicate a barrel for aging red wines will have extra special nuances/characteristics if it is first utilized for fermenting. It is the result of the yeast and all the enzymes (and stuff) that make up fermentation. 

Much of what I have learned so far comes from "WineMakers' Magazine", writer - Tim Vandergrift. He covered this process in the Dec2010/Jan2011 and Feb2011/Mar2011 editions of the magazine.

He fermented 3 whites in his barrel before he turned it over for aging red wines. Of course once a red wine is introduced to the barrel, it can no longer be utilized for white wines, unless you want your whites to look more like a rose. I intend to only ferment one white. The reason being I can't go grab a kit off the shelf for free like Tim can.

*Supplies:*
Barrel - Vadai 6-gallon Hungarian oak barrel. 
I chose this barrel because it is very tried and proven by many home wine makers. Also, these barrels have won trials where the same wine was placed in American, French, and Hungarian (Vadai) oak barrels. When finally blind taste tested, the Vadai beat both the American and French oak.
I was pleasantly surprised when after treating the barrel, it never leaked a drop of water.

Chardonnay Kit: Mosti Mondiale Renaissance, Australian Chardonnay.
Hard to argue against a nice 16liter MM kit. My only reservation was that the kit came with, not a nice dependable white wine yeast, but the old standby - EC-1118. I couldn't believe they put that yeast in such a premium kit.

Had I reread the Tim V. article before I bought the kit, I likely would have gotten the Cellar Craft Washington Chardonnay instead. The reason is not because it is necessarily a better kit, but the article indicated Washington Chards are a little better for surlies than Australian and California Chards might be. However, the MM Ren. Australian Chardonnay kit has a sticker on top that says the grapes came from California and the kit was built in Canada. So, it is not really an Australian Chardonnay after all, just Australian "Style". As it turns out, it will likely do fine and I am glad I bought the one I did; I have made several other MM kits and have always been satisfied with the results.

Yeast: Lalvin ICV D47
This choice is very, very important, as this yeast is especially effective for barrel fermenting whites and aging on their lees, which is exactly what I am going to do. (Ok, maybe I should not be so upset over the MM REN. Chard kit having EC-1118 after all. I would have gone for this D47, anyway, but I can't believe they wouldn't go for a little more applicable yeast.)

Start: I will start the fermentation tonight (08/25/2011).

Primary fermentation: Primary ferment length per MM instructions.

Secondary fermentation: Secondary will be in a glass carboy. (The wine will not be racked from this carboy until surlies/battonage is completed in late November.)

Length of surlies and battonage: Three months. This is a fairly short time period for surlies, which can last up to two years (autolysis doesn't happen until the end of the first year). I feel it is adequate for my first time. According to what I have read, three months is long enough to acquire many of the positive results. (It still will need some additional aging, but I would like to at least sample this by Christmas.)

I won't write anymore now; if anyone is reading this, they might already be dosing off.

More to follow tomorrow!


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## robie (Aug 25, 2011)

One thing I lack is a control source - a bottle of this particular kit, made utilizing the normal process, with which to compare the final results. Not much I can do about that. Mike?


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## ibglowin (Aug 25, 2011)

Couple of things Rich.

Its a "kit" you know they will only package EC-1118 as it will ferment to dry even in the event of a nuclear war.......





Secondly, I have 2 bottles left of this 2009 kit and my kit juice came from Australia according to the package contents!

Sorry, not sharing as it would not be a good control source as the juice is not the same!





I am very interested in your results however!


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## Wade E (Aug 25, 2011)

Sounds like it can only improve the wine.


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## robie (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks, Mike.

A bottle that aged wouldn't have made a good control compared with a young bottle, anyway.

I know about the EC-1118 and the reason why they pack it. However, the Meglioli Barolo (more expensive!) did not have EC-1118, so I was hoping against hope.

The D47 is a perfect yeast for what I am doing. I have high expectations for the barrel fermentation and the surlies process. Pinot N. is my favorite, but I do enjoy a nice chardonnay. Actually, maybe I enjoy it all.


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## uavwmn (Aug 27, 2011)

Dancer, actually I am NOT dosing off but copying and pasting this thread. I have been lately thinking about getting an oak barrel and using it for aging my wines. 


Funny, all of a sudden you pop up with this thread. And I have been picking at Mikes wine head also.


I would definitely use my barrel for a couple of whites also before the reds go in. I have used the battonage process on my first chard and it was wonderful. So, I wish you the best of luck with that process. 


Keep updating this thread.






PS......what is a "surlies"?


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## ibglowin (Aug 27, 2011)

Sur Lies and Biolees are 2 additives that are supposed to give your wine the same taste/mouthfeel as the battonage process in just a few weeks time.


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## robie (Aug 27, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Sur Lies and Biolees are 2 additives that are supposed to give your wine the same taste/mouthfeel as the battonage process in just a few weeks time.



Biolees and Surlees are pretty much the same product,just different makers.

I have used Biolees a few times on some kits and like the results. It works great for taking the "edge" off (example) a chardonnay that didn't get MLF. You can put a pinch in a bottle of wine, seal it up for 24 hours then taste it; it really does smooth things out. It gives the wine an almost "slightly sweet" taste. Its affects are more pronounced where the kit wine really needs the enhancement, of course. If it works, you will definitely know it.

A few weeks before bottling, I like to add it to a small sample of my kit wine and determine if it will improve the wine.

From what I have read about Biolees, it is not recommended for a quality fresh or frozen wine from grapes. It is best suited for kits. Some may disagree.

The surlies process also smooths out the wine, but it also adds a lot of flavor differences and enhancements that Biolees and Surlees additives don't/can't.

I plan on allowing 1 gallon of my chardonnay to stabilize and clarify the standard, non-surlies way. The other 5 gallons will receive the 3 months of surlies/battonage.

Once my wines are ready, if I can't tell the difference between a Biolees treated sample of the 1 gallon and a sample of the surlies/batonnage processed sample, I will certainly let everyone know. Yes, I will make sure I do this trial and report on it.


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## robie (Aug 27, 2011)

uavwmn said:


> Dancer, actually I am NOT dosing off but copying and pasting this thread. I have been lately thinking about getting an oak barrel and using it for aging my wines.
> 
> 
> Funny, all of a sudden you pop up with this thread. And I have been picking at Mikes wine head also.
> ...



It is encouraging when others are interested, so thanks, I will keep posting.

The surlies/battonage process is not as effective on the aromatic whites, like Gerts. and Riesling (and the others). However, I have read where some wineries do it on them successfully, anyway. I also read where it can work well with Pinot Noirs, even though it is not at all recommended for other reds.

The article in WineMaker recomends Chardonnay, Sav Blanc, and Pinot Grigio. According to my research, Pinot Blanc and Chenin Blanc also work with it.

Sur lies in French means "on lies". It is the process of, after secondary is completed, leaving the wine on the fine lees (dead yeast) for a period of time. Battonage, as you already know, is the process of periodically stirring those lees back into suspension in the wine.


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## robie (Aug 27, 2011)

Update:

8/25/2011 I built the kit in a standard fermentor bucket. I hydrated two packets of D47 yeast with some Go Ferm and stirred it into the must. 

Starting SG was 1.100 (That seemed high for a Chard, so I used two different hydrometers to make sure my reading is good).

The yeast works best at between 59 and 68F, so trying to keep the fermentation cool is going to be a challenge. My tap water is about 70F. My basement this year is about 70F, although in normal cooler years it is about 66F.

8/26/2011 at 7 AM.
The wine looks cloudy, as though fermentation is getting ready to go, so I poured the must into my barrel. Immediately, the fizzing started in the barrel. Fermentation is well underway.

The temperature of the must is about 68F, since I had set the fermenter bucket directly on the cooler floor (on purpose).

I placed the barrel in a tub filled about halfway with 70F water. The barrel is about half under water to keep it cool.

I added a bung with a tub coming out. The other end of the tube was placed in a wine bottle that is about 1/3 filled with sanitizing solution. The end of the tube is under the surface of the solution as it must be, so lots of bubbling is going on.

8M - stirred the must well. Still lots of fizzing

8/27/2011 - 8 AM.

Checked temperature - 72F. I know I am going to have a challenge keeping the fermentation as cool as the yeast wants. I figure 72 to 74F is about the best I will be able to do. I could add ice, but I don't intend on doing so.

Wine is really fizzing!!!! Hard to believe it could be so active at such a low temperature. No foam.

Stirred the must well. Up to this point there had been almost no foam at all. Wow! When I stirred it, it really foamed up and out of the barrel. I think it was the yeast reacting with the loose oak pieces still in the barrel. 

Foaming settled down in about 10 minutes. SG is now about 1.085.

Left off the bung and placed a folded paper towel over the hole. This is to let in more oxygen, which this stage of fermentation requires.


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## robie (Aug 29, 2011)

8/29/2011 - AM
SG is at 1.048. Temperature is 72F.

Still fermenting very hard. Still no foaming going on.

The instructions say that at between 1.040 and 1.050 to add yeast nutrient to the primary, stir it well, and rack everything to a carboy.

Hm-m-m-m-m, that seems a little high an SG for me to rack, so I modified that just a little -
I added the nutrient to the fermenting barrel, stirred it well, but left the wine in the barrel for now.

My experience with MM kits is that the nutrient can cause excessive foaming to start up, which if in a carboy, can create the dreaded wine volcano. Same can happen in the barrel of course, so I put the bung in with the end of its exhausting hose placed in a bottle of sanitizing solution, its end under the surface of the solution.

I will give it all day today and likely all night tonight and check it again. If foaming is stopped or never start in the first place, I'll go ahead and rack it to two carboys:
1 gallon to a gallon jug to be stabilized and clarified per the instructions.
5 gallons to a 5-gallon glass carboy for surlies/batonnage treatment, with no stabilization or clarification yet. The surlies/battonage process itself helps protect the wine from spoilage, so I will add the Kmeta a little later.

I will likely not add the sorbate at all. Clarification will not start until late November.


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## ibglowin (Aug 29, 2011)

Take that guy to dry in the barrel!


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## robie (Aug 30, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Take that guy to dry in the barrel!



That was my first inclination because had I been fermenting a Mosti kit in a fermentor bucket, I would definitely ferment to dry in the single container.

This go around, I am concerned about that extra oak time on a more delicate chardonnay and how well the D47 yeast might do if left that long in a barrel. Also, I am going out of town and likely won't return before secondary finishes, so I decided I would do secondary in a carboy this time. 

If the oakiness turns out to be low, I will likely ferment to dry in the barrel next time. (If this turns out to be a good process, there likely WILL BE a next time, since I figure I will buy a new barrel every year.) According to what I read, the amount of oakiness a red aging in the barrel would absorb will be more than the amount absorbed during fermentation in the same barrel. The oak clings to the yeast and other stuff so much of it will eventually get racked off during clarification.


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## robie (Aug 30, 2011)

8/30/2011 -- 6AM



Checked the SG; it is 1.030. Time to rack to secondary.



Stirred the barrel really well then let it set for about 30 minutes.



Using a vacuum pump, racked first to the gallon jug, which will be finished the normal way, according to the remaining kit instructions.



Racked the remainder to a 5-gallon glass carboy. Had about 750ml extra, so it went into a wine bottle.



All three bottles kept right on fermenting. Placed an air lock on each bottle.

Placed bottles in a tub of 68F water to keep the temperature down.



The wine in the 5 gallon carboy will not be removed from this carboy until late November.



I will start the battonage (stirring) next week. i plan on stirring twice a week for awhile, then moving to once a week.

I am surprised at how quickly the D47 yeast has fermented the wine at such a low temperature (~72F).

The instructions say I should have racked when the SG was between 1.050 
and 1.040. The reason I waited until 1.030 was to give the wine one 
more day in the barrel. As it is, it didn't stay in the barrel very 
long. I might have waited one more day, but I didn't want to buck the 
instructions by too much. The more I think about it the more I wish I had waited one more day to rack out of the barrel... next time.


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## ibglowin (Aug 30, 2011)

Your going to be saying just one more day for a long time........





You can always add some light toast Hungarian beans if it needs more oak down the road.


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## robie (Aug 30, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Your going to be saying just one more day for a long time........
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I won't be saying "one more day", because I am caving.




After I read your previous post and the more I thought about it, considering I would have left the wine in a primary bucket the whole time, I will go home tonight and see if I can even taste the oak in the chardonnay. If the oak is not too strong already, I believe I will put the 5-gallon 
carboy and the split back into the barrel until Thursday or Friday, 
depending on the SG. 

The whole idea of barrel fermenting in the first place is to condition 
the barrel. Considering the wine has been in the barrel only about 4 
days, and that I am only going to ferment one kit in it, I really ought to give the barrel some more time on the yeast.

I took all the lees over when I racked, so nothing of significance has been lost. I know there will be lots of oak in suspension, but I should be able to judge what might stick to the wine. I'll leave the one gallon in its present container. 

The yeast is still going pretty strong, so I figure it will survive moving the wine back, if I do it tonight; the SG should still be above 1.020.

This definitely is a learning experience.


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## robie (Aug 31, 2011)

8/30/2011 PM

I moved the wine from the 5 gallon carboy and the 750ml bottle back into the barrel. Everything seems to be fermenting well, still.

8/31/2011 AM
Checked the barrel. SG is down to 1.012. Temperature is about 72F, still. All looks well. Not regrets about going back to the barrel.


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## ibglowin (Aug 31, 2011)

You going to do another white after this or switch to reds?


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## robie (Aug 31, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> You going to do another white after this or switch to reds?



I'd love to ferment one more white at least, but I am out of kits. It turns into a fight when I want to buy another kit. So, I'll switch to aging reds after this one. I don't need another Chardonnay and I am not that crazy about the other whites, which I can get in a kit and which can handle barrel fermentation (oaking), like Pinot Griz and Sav Blanc can.

Problem is, it doesn't look like my grapes will be here until early October, but my barrel will be empty by next Saturday. Currently aging in carboys, I have a Pinot Noir, Melbec, Barolo, and CC Cab/Syrah blend. Some of them can use a little more oak. I will run them through the barrel just to keep it busy until my fresh grapes get here.


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## robie (Sep 6, 2011)

9/2/2011 PM
SG .999
Racked the wine from the barrel to a 5 gallon carboy. (The 1 gallon had already been racked from the barrel a few days earlier.)

The wine still has a little fermentation to go, but it is close to being finished fermenting.

I will process the 1 gallon container as per normal instructions - add stabilizer and start the clearing process.

The 5 gallon container will start the surlies(lees aging)/battonage(stirring) process in a few days. No stabilizer will be added for awhile, though. I don't intend on ever adding any sorbate. 

Since it is a white, if the wine doesn't clear normally, I will use a clarifier. I do intend to filter this wine before bottling.

From now until the end of November, it will be check (smell), stir and wait.


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## rhoffart (Sep 6, 2011)

Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel. It is a MM Chardonnay Del Veneto. I racked it into the barrel this past Saturday. Note: Don't put 28 degree wine in a barrel then top it off. As it warms it expands.







You really got me thinking about the yeast provided with these kits.


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## ibglowin (Sep 6, 2011)

You will be adding the sulfite in pretty soon right?


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## robie (Sep 6, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> You will be adding the sulfite in soon pretty soon right?



This is the area where I am least comfortable.

The articles said the yeast themselves are supposed to provide a level of protection for awhile... but certainly not a long while.

(There is also the issue of oxidation! Whites are more susceptible than reds. Even with a good bung properly attached, Tim V. wrote there is a lot of air exchange going on between the bung and the inside surface of the top of the carboy. It just isn't as tight a seal as one might think.)

In my research of lees aging I have not been able to determine when sulfites should be added; only that they should NOT be added soon after fermentation is completed.

If one reads Tim V.'s article in Winemaker Magazine, IMO, it reads he added the Kmeta several months down the road. However, he was not very specific, so it is open to interpretation. Regardless, I just can't wait very long unless I get some specifics (very specific!) on the subject!

One article said the yeast don't actually die as quickly as one would think. It indicated the yeast are still "doing things", like producing enzymes for breaking down yeast walls (a process that can ruin a red wine). So, adding Kmeta, which slows them down or sometimes even kills them, too soon is not what is wanted for lees aging. Problem is, it didn't say WHEN it should be added.

I am still trying to find out more about this issue. If something doesn't surface, I'll likely add the Kmeta within a week.

Good thing mankind is very sensitive to the H2S smell. That's why I will need to smell the wine regularly. I'll be watching the color, too.


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## robie (Sep 6, 2011)

I just got this out of another article Tim V. wrote in Winemaker Magazine.

at http://www.winemakermag.com/stories/article/indices/43-yeast/924-sur-lie-wine-kits

............................
• Seven-day primary, rack to carboy and top up

• Stir twice per week for six weeks

• Add 25 PPM FSO2 (about one-quarter teaspoon of metabisulfite powder 
per six gallons, or about 1 gram per 23 liters. It’s helpful to get a 
sulfite test kit and measure this to double-check your addition)

• Stir once per week for eight weeks

• Stir once per month for one year


...


*Sulfite, oak, stink and when to go to bottle*

Too little sulfite and your sur lie wine will almost certainly oxidize. 
Too much and the SO2 will bind to too many compounds and reduce or 
flatten the aromas. Grape winemakers have to worry because their wines 
either need to complete or avoid malolactic fermentation. Wine kits 
don’t undergo MLF, but need the right amount of sulfite to keep them 
from oxidation or colonization by aerobic bacteria.
.............................

It didn't say to NOT add the initial dose of Kmeta; it just says to adjust free SO2 levels after 6 weeks. It does read to me that Kmeta is not added until after the first six weeks of stirring. 

All opinions are gladly accepted.

Ugh!


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## robie (Sep 6, 2011)

The following is enough for me to believe that I should maintain proper SO2 levels DURING surlies. I believe it states that I should add the stabilizing amount of Kmeta as soon as fermentation is complete. (see last sentence)

At:

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/surlie/surlie.htm

.........................
It is worth noting that the early use of SO2 increases the number of 
compounds that bind with later SO2 additions. Excessive SO2 tends to 
oppose wood/oak flavours and stunts flavour development, whereas 
insufficient SO2 favours premature ageing and flattens the wine.

When malolactic fermentation (MLF) is to take place, extra care must be 
taken with sur lie ageing since no (or very little) sulphur dioxide 
will/should be present to protect the wine. Sur lie ageing in this 
situation does provide some assistance against oxidation (through 
oxidative buffering and the fact that some dissolved carbon dioxide will
remain from fermentation), but it also provides a window of opportunity
for the development of unwanted bacteria. The most secure approach is 
to inoculate with a MLF culture early on in the ageing process, or 
perhaps during alcoholic fermentation itself. Some winemakers, however, 
feel that a period of non-SO2 lees contact post MLF can contribute 
further complexity to wines. For more information regarding the 
connection between MLF, sulphur dioxide and lees contact, see the MLF article. 

In the case of wines which are not to under go MLF, or where a wine has 
already completed MLF, it is helpful to maintain suitable sulphur 
dioxide levels while sur lie ageing. See the Sulphur Dioxide article for details. 
............................

Of course there will be no MLF for a kit wine.

Thanks, Mike, for bringing up your question about sulfites. I have been unclear on this issue from the beginning and knew I would have to re-address it soon enough.


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## ibglowin (Sep 6, 2011)

I haven't done a barrel ferment or a battonage process on a white. I just know that sometimes a wine will hold on to CO2 for dear life and other times it will degas itself in a matter of days after completing fermentation. Almost every white that I didn't top off immediately or keep a close eye on the SO2 has prematurely oxidized to some extent. I would be fearful to leave a white wine in a barrel or in a carboy for too long without some sulfite for protection from browning mostly.


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## robie (Sep 7, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> I haven't done a barrel ferment or a battonage process on a white. I just know that sometimes a wine will hold on to CO2 for dear life and other times it will degas itself in a matter of days after completing fermentation. Almost every white that I didn't top off immediately or keep a close eye on the SO2 has prematurely oxidized to some extent. I would be fearful to leave a white wine in a barrel or in a carboy for too long without some sulfite for protection from browning mostly.



The wine is out of the barrel now. 

I agree. Ironically, last evening I again read where some wine makers prefer to hold off SO2 adjustments until well into lees aging. However, the article pointed out that lots of others didn't agree with that approach. So, I'll go ahead and stabilize when I am sure fermentation is complete.

I tasted the 4 reds, which I still have in carboys. Two of them can use some more oak. I put the Melbec in the barrel first.


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## robie (Sep 7, 2011)

rhoffart said:


> Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel. It is a MM Chardonnay Del Veneto. I racked it into the barrel this past Saturday. Note: Don't put 28 degree wine in a barrel then top it off. As it warms it expands.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Glad it is of interest to you. 

The yeast provided with the kits is a good yeast with a very neutral flavor profile. It is there because it is one of the most reliable strains, and reliability is what we really need when we are starting out. Afterall, the kit manufacturers have to warranty the kits, so they will want to make sure everything they furnish is reliable.

That said, understandably if you don't use their supplied yeast, they won't guarantee the kit.

Once a person gets some experience and understands the characteristics of other yeast strains, along with knowing the strains' need for nutrients, correct temperature range, and alcohol tolerance, he/she might carefully start experimenting. 

I see this as one of the first steps in moving toward making wine from fresh/frozen grapes.

The first time I did this the wine got a very bad case of H2S. I didn't properly feed a strain of yeast that its documentation clearly stated it needed more nutrients than some other strains and that it also was more susceptible to H2S than some other strains.

I was able to save the wine, but it could have been a very expensive lesson to learn. If you try this, you really need to do your homework.

Just be careful.

Let us all follow your progress with your new barrel.


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## ibglowin (Sep 7, 2011)

Hey you know the rules! Pics of the new barrel or it never happened!







rhoffart said:


> Thanks for all the update ... you got me hooked. I have my first wine in my new barrel.


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## rhoffart (Sep 7, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Hey you know the rules! Pics of the new barrel or it never happened!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





You seen it over there ...


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## ibglowin (Sep 7, 2011)

Gotta post it here as well!


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## robie (Sep 7, 2011)

Your barrel is prettier than mine! Mine is all water and wine stained on the outside already.

The Melbec I put in it came out of a Mexican carboy, which was filled to the proper point. In order to fill the barrel, I had to add another full 750 ml bottle of commercial Melbec. Guess my barrel is a little over 23 liters. How about yours and Mikes, have you measure the volume?


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## ibglowin (Sep 7, 2011)

One of my barrels takes a about 0.3L less than the other one to top off with for sure. If it was full in a Mexican carboy you know its going to need a bunch to top off in the barrel or an Italian carboy for sure


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## robie (Dec 1, 2011)

Time for the next step.

As planned, the 5 gallons of Chard has been aging on the lees and stirred weekly for three months now. The one gallon reference container has been setting cleared, but unbottled for the same amount of time. Both have been setting in a room at about 65F.

Monday night I added the fining agent to the 5 gallons, which ends the surlies/batonnage experiment. It started clearing right away. I can already easily see my hand through the glass carboy. It will take a couple more weeks at least before it clears.

I sort of modified what I was going to do with my one-gallon reference wine. My intentions was to treat it exactly like the instructions said, but after clearing it, I ended up leaving it on the light lees for this three month period. All the sediment that was in the wine at clearing time was pretty much just the dead yeast.

What this means is that the one-gallon container also went through the surlies process, but not the batonnage. It did set on the lees, just wasn't stirred. Several famous french wineries believe in doing surlies by itself but never batonnage. I am a bit surprised at how smooth the one-gallon has become. It doesn't have that sharp edge some kit chards, which don't go through MLF, have. (Of course kits wines should never go through MLF.)

I guess I shouldn't have let it set on the lees, since I now will never know how it would have turned out, had I processed it based on kit instructions. However, I can live with that difference.

Even though the one gallon went through surlies, it tastes much different than the 5 gallon,which went through batonnage. The 5 gallon definitely has the nutty, biscuity, yeasty flavor one tastes in a champagne. I think once it clears, it is going to be nice.

Once the wine is clear, I'll put both wines through cold stabilization and let it set in the carboys for a couple more months. After that I'll bottle it. I haven't decided when I'll pull the cork on any of it; likely June or July. 

I'll taste each carboy before I bottle it and report how it tastes at that time.


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## robie (Dec 1, 2011)

Sorry I forgot to point out the one-gallon of chardonnay, though very smooth, doesn't have the nutty, biscuity, yeasty taste, which the 5-gallon container has. I'm sure the difference is the one gallon was not regularly stirred as was the 5-gallons.

I haven't yet added any oak to either container. The wine was fermented n a brand new 6 gallon oak barrel. I like both oaked and un-oaked chardonnays. I'll taste it soon and determine if I want to add more oak.


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## ibglowin (Dec 1, 2011)

DancerMan said:


> I haven't yet added any oak to either container.



<div style=": rgb255, 255, 255; margin-left: 2px; margin-top: 2px; margin-right: 2px; margin-bottom: 2px; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb0, 0, 0; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; -: none; ">If one of them was fermented in a brand new barrel I would say one of them has been oaked!


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## robie (Dec 1, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> DancerMan said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't yet added any oak to either container.
> ...



They were both fermented in my brand new barrel as one batch, then split into two containers afterward, so they both have some oak already, just very little (I'll explain). 

What I meant was I haven't added any "additional" oak once the wines were paced in the individual containers. The kit came with two types of oak, but I haven't used any of it, yet.

Interesting but the amount of oaking that took place in the barrel during that one week of fermenting is not nearly as much as if after fermentation I had put the chardonnay in the new barrel for one week. The wine now has very little discernible oak in it.

Apparently the fermentation in the barrel has some affect on the amount of oak the barrel gives off during that period. I was concerned about one week in a new barrel being too much, but Tim V. of Wine Maker Magazine mentioned that fermenting in a new barrel would not oak the wine as much as one might think. 

I know that seems to contradict the idea that oak chips/ dust/ powder added during fermentation oaks works faster than if the same oak were added during aging. Go figure.

I am not sure I want to oak the wine any more than the little it already has. I have read some on this and many believe oak doesn't go as well with the results of surlies and batonnage. I will wait and make that determination later through bench trials.

One other thing I failed to mention is that the non-batonnaged wine in the one-gallon jug is a deep gold color. The five-gallons is not as deep, more straw colored than gold, more like a better chardonnay typically is colored. Seems the process has leached out some of the color through absorption by the yeast remains. However, the sediment in the bottom of both containers is pretty much the same color. maybe the difference in the sediment color will show up more after full clearing.

Right now I am reading a really good book about the 1976 Paris competition ("Judgement Of Paris" by George Tabor), where Stag Leaps' Cab and Chateau Montelena's Chardonnay beat out the French. This factual book goes into great detail about the players at both wineries and carries their lives back many years prior to the competition. (Just a super book for wine lovers; really inspiring.) It specifically says the 1973 chardonnay was aged in oak barrels for many months but it DID NOT go through MLF. I was surprised about no MLF.


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## ibglowin (Dec 1, 2011)

Good info Richard!
And totally agree about "Judgement of Paris". You should have read that before your trip to Napa! I wish Napa could go back to that magic time period. I think WA state is in that time period right now which is why I buy almost 100% of anything commercial from there these days.
Highly recommended read!


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## robie (Dec 2, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Good info Richard!
> And totally agree about "Judgement of Paris". You should have read that before your trip to Napa! I wish Napa could go back to that magic time period. I think WA state is in that time period right now which is why I buy almost 100% of anything commercial from there these days.
> Highly recommended read!



Yes, had I read it before, I would have been better able to relate in Napa. As I read the book, I find myself wishing I had known about those wineries, so I could have visited them. That's OK, we go to some wine country around California every Spring Break, so we will get our chance. (The wife's sons both live nearby.

I keep hearing about the wineries in the Santa Cruz Mountains. My wife's son lives in Santa Cruz, so I have been to several of the wineries there, just not to the specific ones which had wines in the Paris contest. There is a tasting room in Santa Cruz that carries wines from all of them. I found that from winery to winery, all the like wines, even across different varietals, had the same underlying taste. Unfortunately, it was a taste for which I didn't care at all. I didn't taste a single wine I thought was worth $10. 

In August I attended a wedding in those mountains and was served a Pinot Noir from there. I couldn't even finish the glass I was served. I am no wine snob, but honestly, I have tasted better box wine.

Speaking of snobbery, I know what you mean about southern Sonoma County and all of Napa Valley. That's why I don't go there much anymore. They really think they have arrived. Northern Sonoma, Mendocino and Lake Counties are still good places to visit.


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## robie (Dec 5, 2011)

The five gallons of surlie/batonnaged wine is already very clear after only a week or so after adding the fining agent.

I have a friend who also likes Chardonnay. After a couples game of Hand And Foot (that's a card game!), we went down to the basement and tasted both the five gallons of lees-aged and stirred, and the one gallon of just lees aged. She liked both very well. We both could tell the difference between the two. Both were softer (smoother) and fruitier than I had guessed they would be. They both were very nice, still a little green on the tongue from youth, though. I don't think either will be ready to drink for another 6 to 12 months in the bottle. I will adjust the SO2, filter, and bottle them some time over the next couple of months.

The characteristics of the surlies/batonnage process is present, just not as prevalent as it would be had I continued it for a year (or two) rather than the 3 months, which I did this time. Nice thing about this process is one can control just how much of that taste is present by varying the time.

One thing I can't measure about either of these two sub-batches of wine is the effect barrel fermentation had on them. This is the only time I have ever done a barrel fermentation. I have never made a Chardonnay before.

I am glad I did this experiment and I am pleased with the results. I think it would be fun to enter a bottle of each of the two sub-batches in the big Wine Maker's Magazine wine contest next year. One never knows how it might be perceived. Naturally, not everyone will like the taste lees aging and stirring brings to the Chardonnay.

Next Chardonnay I make, I definitely will do surlies and batonnage. I am thinking seriously about the MM Meglioli Chardonnay for next time or maybe a Brehm frozen grape Chardonnay, as I really want to make an extra special Chard one day. (I must have a little Mike Grgich in me.)


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## ibglowin (Dec 5, 2011)

Well done Richard thanks for the update!


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