# Developing a Robot for Fruit Growers - what do you think?



## candersen10 (Feb 6, 2017)

Hello, my name is Charlie and I am working to build a robot for fruit growers. Here is a video of an early prototype: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzl5cuP6yLY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzl5cuP6yLY[/ame].

What do you think about this? The product is a robotic cart that follows the user, and can also return to a specified point on command. On my farm, it would be very useful for harvesting apples and grapes, and also for spreading mulch (as shown in the video) and in other tasks where I'd otherwise be jumping into/out of a skid steer to spread small bits of material or collect objects.

The cart will be built out of aluminum so will not corrode, and should weigh about 100 pounds and be able to carry 250 pounds or so (at least several bushels of apples).

Any thoughts or feedback on the idea? What might you pay for something like this?


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## salcoco (Feb 6, 2017)

video doesn't work


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## grapeman (Feb 6, 2017)

No way to tell how we like it when the video just shows an error. I tried searching You tube but I can't find it. Better try again to add a link to it. Thanks


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## candersen10 (Feb 6, 2017)

grapeman said:


> No way to tell how we like it when the video just shows an error. I tried searching You tube but I can't find it. Better try again to add a link to it. Thanks



Video should work now - Sorry!


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## NorCal (Feb 6, 2017)

I think there will be a market for grape harvesting in the next 5 years in CA. Minimum wage is going from the current $10.50 to $15.00, in steps of $1 per year. Frankly I think it will be really bad for these workers, because their jobs will be disappearing. There will not be waitresses at restaurants, all table top electronics where you order and pay for food. Same at fast food places. I can see it like the back of my hand.

I manage 20 acres of vines for our community and we contract out everything. The biggest expense is the contractor's labor, which I foresee going up significantly. A cart that could serve as a collection point for the workers cutting grapes and shuttles to/from the macro bin would be useful and replace a significant amount of the labor in our operation. Same goes for pruning. It takes as much labor to remove all the clipped canes as it does to clip them.

So, even if you don't see people getting real excited about it today, know the economics in CA may change their point of view in the future.


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## Johny99 (Feb 7, 2017)

Neat idea. Now if you can make it climb a 20 degree slope I could put it to work! Seriously, I think the load capacity would have to increase but I sure like the idea of not having to get on and off the tractor all the time


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## candersen10 (Feb 7, 2017)

How much load capacity would you like? I'm imagining there are tasks (harvesting, pruning, etc.) where you don't need much more than a few hundred pounds of payload. What did you have in mind though?


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## berrycrush (Feb 7, 2017)

What will be the price per unit?


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## candersen10 (Feb 7, 2017)

berrycrush said:


> What will be the price per unit?



For first couple hundred, we would try to sell them for between $4 and 5K. Price will come down as we scale up. This is a cost up (what it costs us to build), not value/price down (the value a customer would get from one) estimate.

For $4-5K you'd get 250 pound payload capacity, 5 miles run time on a charge, following capability and return to set point/return to home, and an aluminum build for corrosion resistance.

If it did the work we've explained (followed, returned along path to home point, carried 250 pounds, traveled up to 5 miles on a charge), does that price sound realistic?


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## NorCal (Feb 7, 2017)

At $16 loaded, 8-10 hours per day, if it could replace a runner, it would pay for itself in a few months. My biggest concern would be its ability to navigate the vineyard.


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## Johny99 (Feb 7, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> How much load capacity would you like? I'm imagining there are tasks (harvesting, pruning, etc.) where you don't need much more than a few hundred pounds of payload. What did you have in mind though?



On my terrain, I'd say ~300 lbs or so. But for me slope and terrain is important. Those on flat ground might think differently. Then again, I'm jealous of the little elevatated tram systems I saw in vineyards and olive groves in Italy


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## candersen10 (Feb 8, 2017)

NorCal said:


> At $16 loaded, 8-10 hours per day, if it could replace a runner, it would pay for itself in a few months. My biggest concern would be its ability to navigate the vineyard.



NorCal - when you say $16 loaded are you referring to a $16 labor rate? Sorry, didn't understand that part of your comment.

Regarding navigation, in your operations, are there paths that an operator would walk that are decently maintained, or is everything a 90 degree slope with mud etc. (I'm exaggerating of course)? Our plan would be for the robot to just exactly retrace the first path the operator walked to return to home.


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## candersen10 (Feb 8, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> On my terrain, I'd say ~300 lbs or so. But for me slope and terrain is important. Those on flat ground might think differently. Then again, I'm jealous of the little elevatated tram systems I saw in vineyards and olive groves in Italy



Johny99, do you have a link anywhere to the elevated tram systems that you have seen? If so would love to see it. Thanks!


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## NorCal (Feb 8, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> NorCal - when you say $16 loaded are you referring to a $16 labor rate? Sorry, didn't understand that part of your comment.
> 
> Regarding navigation, in your operations, are there paths that an operator would walk that are decently maintained, or is everything a 90 degree slope with mud etc. (I'm exaggerating of course)? Our plan would be for the robot to just exactly retrace the first path the operator walked to return to home.



Loaded = min wage + taxes, benefits. Of course the terrain of vineyards is quite varied. The applicability would be those vineyards that are large, but are not designed for mechination. This would typically mean head trained, poor spacing, hilly terrain etc.


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## NorCal (Feb 8, 2017)

An interesting and relevant article today out of the Wine show in Sacramento.


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## candersen10 (Feb 8, 2017)

NorCal said:


> An interesting and relevant article today out of the Wine show in Sacramento.



NorCal - super interesting for sure! Thanks for sharing.

From our perspective, it seems like the low hanging fruit (no pun intended) for near term commercial robotics is with fairly simple products, however, rather than very complex pruning robots which are still a few years away from what we see for widespread commercial use.


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## Johny99 (Feb 8, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> Johny99, do you have a link anywhere to the elevated tram systems that you have seen? If so would love to see it. Thanks!



I'll post a picture when I get home next week. If I forget, pm me.


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## candersen10 (Feb 9, 2017)

*Any feedback on the unit economics shown here?*

Any feedback on the unit economics shown here for a laborer in harvest and transit time etc.?


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm curious as to the travel speed you have. 3mph isn't a blistering pace, but it's not crawling either. Can the robot actually do that effectively and safely?


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## candersen10 (Feb 10, 2017)

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm curious as to the travel speed you have. 3mph isn't a blistering pace, but it's not crawling either. Can the robot actually do that effectively and safely?



Boatboy, it seems to do fine at that speed. 3 MPH is generally around average walking speed. Loaded up very heavily on bumpier ground with 3 or 4 plastic lugs on top it would have to be slowed a bit perhaps.


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## candersen10 (Feb 12, 2017)

Here:http://www.agrbt.com/AGR%20Burro%20Overview.pdf is a 1 page overview of the idea, now more fully showcased. Any more feedback/thoughts?


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## havlikn (Feb 12, 2017)

Just my two cents, most vineyard operations have a four wheeler or tractor. Seems like you would need this to be pretty inexpensive for an operation to buy in. Not trying to drown your idea, but want to provide an insight from a grower.


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## candersen10 (Feb 12, 2017)

havlikn said:


> Just my two cents, most vineyard operations have a four wheeler or tractor. Seems like you would need this to be pretty inexpensive for an operation to buy in. Not trying to drown your idea, but want to provide an insight from a grower.



Havlikn, good point. Our assumption (maybe wrong?) is that there are a lot of tasks such as picking where people are picking, then marching lugs back and forth to a larger collection point. If our Burro robot could carry 250 pounds of picked produce and run the route back to a collection point to be emptied before returning back to the picker, who could simply continue picking rather than making the trip, would that create any value?


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## havlikn (Feb 12, 2017)

I have seen many vineyards that just pull a trailer behind an implement and then just move it ahead as they go on

Now an area I could see a great application for a robot would be something to pick up all the printings in the spring. Time saver


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## candersen10 (Feb 12, 2017)

havlikn said:


> I have seen many vineyards that just pull a trailer behind an implement and then just move it ahead as they go on
> 
> Now an area I could see a great application for a robot would be something to pick up all the printings in the spring. Time saver



Does this use case exist in many places (guys collecting bins to larger place by hand, or carrying bins to collection place by hand)? Or is everyone running a vineyard tractor with wagon behind it and picking up bins where they have been left by pickers?






When you say picking up the printings (prunings) in the spring, is that job being done by hand with a lot of removal of the prunings by hand also? Or do you mean something different?


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## havlikn (Feb 12, 2017)

I would say most people use machines and trailers. I meant to say prunings. Spell check isn't the greatest


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## candersen10 (Feb 13, 2017)

havlikn said:


> I would say most people use machines and trailers. I meant to say prunings. Spell check isn't the greatest



Are guys removing prunings very proactively? Or do they just drop them to the ground and then take them into a windrow and then pick them up later with a tractor?


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## havlikn (Feb 13, 2017)

People will use tractor but many may not have implement to drag the ground to pick them up


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## candersen10 (Feb 13, 2017)

What if while pruning you had a cart behind with a large volume capacity bed to throw prunings right into? The cart could return to dump itself, and then come back to you. You would not have to get into a tractor at all and could just keep working.

Value? Or none?


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## havlikn (Feb 13, 2017)

Yes I see a purpose there


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## candersen10 (Feb 13, 2017)

havlikn said:


> Yes I see a purpose there



Any takers here for helping us sell something like this (selling for $4K or so - this product in a more commercial form (i.e. Robust, farm tough, etc.): http://www.agrbt.com/AGR Burro Overview.pdf) or perhaps in buying an early build? If interested, send me a note ([email protected]).

What would be a realistic price point? Running full tilt a single unit could replace 10 miles of material transport back and forth, and would run on its own so no need for an operator.

In essence, a Burro would function as a virtual conveyor belt from a pick point to a collection point.


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## Johny99 (Feb 18, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> Johny99, do you have a link anywhere to the elevated tram systems that you have seen? If so would love to see it. Thanks!


 
Here is a picture of one. They were on very steep slopes, some were a monorail and others had two rails, elevated with a little engine (gas I guess) and cars.


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## candersen10 (Mar 19, 2017)

We are making progress on our product, and have a survey for customer feedback.

Could anyone on the forum that has an interest in a robotic following cart fill this out? Thanks!
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...jWT-NZeJYYX2hEO2L5UVO1Wg/viewform?usp=sf_link

To keep tabs on our progress, please visit www.agrbt.com. Image below shows our new 4WD prototype.


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## candersen10 (Aug 22, 2017)

Looking for feedback now on our concept. Could forum members check out this video (see link below), and give us an idea of whether something like this might create value?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3Fk6O-ObE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3Fk6O-ObE[/ame]

We've spent a lot of time talking with growers of hand picked crops like blueberries, raspberries, and table grapes. Now, looking for feedback from wine grape growers too (especially those who hand pick). Could you see a cart like this working in your operation as a labor saving device to keep pickers picking continuously rather than running crops to the end of rows?


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## balatonwine (Aug 22, 2017)

I don't see the point of this product. It is a specialized tool and an added expense that can be done with existing tools the farmer already has. And how are empty trays delivered to the pickers? A obvious omission in this marketing video.

Currently, our trays are placed into the center of the row empty, and filled by workers, and replaced into the row when full. A Tractor with tailer comes along driving over the trays, and a small crew picks up the full trays and stacks them on the trailer. Tractor then delivers a full load to the winery (so no extra tray transfer step needed as with this robot product). And picks up more empty trays to deliver to the field ahead of the workers (same crew goes down a to-be-picked row depositing empty trays). It is all simply a matter of managing the work flow properly. A robot following the picker around is not only not needed, but from my understanding of this simplistic video, a large operation might need as many as a quarter or half as many $8,000 robots as there are workers? Or do you just have a person walking a robot through the field and waiting (doing nothing and on paid time) while the robot makes a delivery of a rather small load to the collection point? Quite an expensive investment that is unnecessary, IMHO.

By the way, our vineyards are on quite a slope. We are not growing raspberries, and vineyards can be in some challenging terrain. Nice videos of a tool on flat ground bouncing over not much more than little bumps. I bet our diesel 4x4 tractor can climb a steeper slope with a full trailer with many times more fruit weight than this little robot could handle on a flat surface. Again, don't see the advertised savings for us.


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## candersen10 (Aug 22, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> I don't see the point of this product. It is a specialized tool and an added expense that can be done with existing tools the farmer already has. And how are empty trays delivered to the pickers? A obvious omission in this marketing video.
> 
> Currently, our trays are placed into the center of the row empty, and filled by workers, and replaced into the row when full. A Tractor with tailer comes along driving over the trays, and a small crew picks up the full trays and stacks them on the trailer. Tractor then delivers a full load to the winery (so no extra tray transfer step needed as with this robot product). And picks up more empty trays to deliver to the field ahead of the workers (same crew goes down a to-be-picked row depositing empty trays). It is all simply a matter of managing the work flow properly. A robot following the picker around is not only not needed, but from my understanding of this simplistic video, a large operation might need as many as a quarter or half as many $8,000 robots as there are workers? Or do you just have a person walking a robot through the field and waiting (doing nothing and on paid time) while the robot makes a delivery of a rather small load to the collection point? Quite an expensive investment that is unnecessary, IMHO.
> 
> By the way, our vineyards are on quite a slope. We are not growing raspberries, and vineyards can be in some challenging terrain. Nice videos of a tool on flat ground bouncing over not much more than little bumps. I bet our diesel 4x4 tractor can climb a steeper slope with a full trailer with many times more fruit weight than this little robot could handle on a flat surface. Again, don't see the advertised savings for us.



balatonwine, thank you for the feedback. very helpful. A few points/clarifying questions below.

(1) How large is your operation, and is percentage of time spent picking versus shuttling picked produce around a concern?

(2) *And how are empty trays delivered to the pickers? A obvious omission in this marketing video.*
We assume that a picker would send the robot back after removing a last empty tray, and that when the robot reached the collection point, the people unloading it would refill it with empty trays to return to the picker with.

(3) *Or do you just have a person walking a robot through the field and waiting (doing nothing and on paid time) while the robot makes a delivery of a rather small load to the collection point? *
We assume picker would continue picking into a removed empty bin while the robot ran back to be emptied, and returned empty, thus eliminating shuttling time and allowing the picker to just pick.

(4) *bet our diesel 4x4 tractor can climb a steeper slope with a full trailer with many times more fruit weight than this little robot could handle on a flat surface.*
Our small prototype is an early prototype; we believe we can engineer our robots to work quite nicely on very steep slopes (albeit with <400-500 lb payloads).

(5) Overall, no point to our idea it sounds like in Vineyards?

Thanks!


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## NorCal (Aug 22, 2017)

We are getting ready to harvest our first 7.5 tons (head trained Mourvedre for Rose) tomorrow.

Macrobins on a trailer are staged at the end of the rows. Each plant has around 10 lbs of fruit, 40 or so vines per row. So, every two or three rows, we get a full macro bin. The macro bin trailer is then taken by tractor to the weigh station, 1/8 mile away. In this scenario, I don't see applicability. 

However, we have other vineyards, where it is hard to get a macro bin in close proximity to the picking of the grapes. This is a much better application for the robot. One of the biggest problems, besides labor costs (Our CA minimum wage is going up $1 per/hour each year, all the way up to $15) is finding people to do the work, period. So, I see a growing need for innovative solutions that can take aid or take the place of field workers.


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## candersen10 (Dec 6, 2017)

An update:

Here is what we have now: 

And some more information on refined machines here: www.agrbt.com/products.html

I think we've found that wine grapes aren't the best jumping off point, but that table grapes, blueberries, cane berries, and stone fruits seem like good ones. We are building towards those now.


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## grapeman (Dec 12, 2017)

One suggestion I would have for you for testing the prototype would be to use a loaded cart to test for stability on a normal field - including less than perfectly smooth terrain, hills, slight ruts from tractor operating in wet weather when sprayings need to be done even though ideally you would not rut the rows up. There are often rodent holes spring up from woodchucks, gophers, etc. Having used carts with beds the size you have, they are often not all that stable when loaded lets say 3 or 4 lugs high. That small caster wheel on the back could cause the cart to tip over on uneven ground. I think the product might have some use, but may need a bit of further refinement especially at $8000.


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## candersen10 (Dec 12, 2017)

We have some improvements from the video in terms of prototype robustness





Here are the types of operations we intend to run it in for early customers 

Does it look up for the task in those types of settings?


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## cozmogeek (Dec 13, 2017)

That thing is a beast now!


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## candersen10 (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks!

Here it is hustling around. 
.


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## balatonwine (Dec 15, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> Does this use case exist in many places (guys collecting bins to larger place by hand, or carrying bins to collection place by hand)? Or is everyone running a vineyard tractor with wagon behind it and picking up bins where they have been left by pickers?



Where did you source this image? Without knowing, I would guess that image is most likely a use case in countries where such labor is cheap enough compared to running a tractor to make it practical. And thus would probably see no economic sense to purchase your robot.

So then I searched the image source. Looks like France:

https://chenebleu.wordpress.com/2011/11/01/harvest-2011-beauteous-weather-bountiful-grapes/

But notice, they are mostly using machines (in this image, it is an ATV). So it would seem that manual labor is limited, or is not a limiting or economic factor as I guessed. Because, surprise.... they are actually mostly using machines, in the rows, to bring grapes out of the field. Similar to the scenario I already recounted.


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## balatonwine (Dec 15, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> What if while pruning you had a cart behind with a large volume capacity bed to throw prunings right into? The cart could return to dump itself, and then come back to you. You would not have to get into a tractor at all and could just keep working.
> 
> Value? Or none?



I would say that the cart would just be in the way during pruning for manual pruners. And if you have ever pruned vines, you should know the cutting do not fit neatly into a box. they can often be quite a tangle of mostly airspace. And what do the pruners do (again as previously mentioned before) when the cart was off "dumping" the cuttings? Lag time, or else having to purchase more machines to keep a row of bins always available. Manual pruners work fast. Besides, a lot of large commercial vineyards use machines to do the trimming. And a simple, rather inexpensive, 3-point hitch rake on a tractor can make piles for later pickup.






Eventually.... eventually, there will be a market for such a robot. But in those areas where field labor costs are high or not available due to shortage (and the terrain is relatively flat). Don't see it practical yet in many areas however.


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## candersen10 (Dec 15, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> Eventually.... eventually, there will be a market for such a robot. But in those areas where field labor costs are high or not available due to shortage (and the terrain is relatively flat). Don't see it practical yet in many areas however.



What about these spaces? http://www.agrbt.com/images/Video/in field operations.mp4

Could anyone see it working there?

We've concluded that the wine grape market is not the right one for us. Bin trailers are not something we want to compete with.


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## balatonwine (Dec 15, 2017)

candersen10 said:


> What about these spaces? http://www.agrbt.com/images/Video/in field operations.mp4
> 
> Could anyone see it working there?
> .



I personally know below zero about blueberries.


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## candersen10 (Jul 23, 2018)

Thoughts on this one now? 

Here's an image of it in blueberries.


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