# Wine cellar questions



## ChuckD (Dec 1, 2021)

Having been bitten by the wine making bug, I have converted my root cellar into a "wine cave". I ripped out some old decaying shelving (non treated lumber) and outfitted it with some new shelving including a 10-foot long shelf on the long wall for secondaries and three-high shelves in the back for wine bottles. I planned on using some plastic crates I found at Menards for bottle dividers... they hold 16 bottles each. I already have plans for a matching three-high shelving along the right side wall. I have been reading everything I can find online about wine cellars but most of the content references those fancy multi-zillion dollar climate controlled wine rooms. As you can see, mine is intended to be passive only... and not so pretty.

A few questions:
1. My cellar has a gravel floor with drainage underneath... I have never had standing water in the cellar. Would concrete be better?
2. I have not monitored the temperature closely but It stays below 65 degrees in the summer and just under 40 degrees in the winter. I know this is outside the published ideal range for wine storage but it's what I have. Right now the entrance faces west and the block is directly behind the stone retaining wall which is about three feet thick. I think I am losing/gaining a lot of heat through this wall and the poorly sealed door so the plan is to add 2" of insulation (r10) to the inside of that wall, increase the door insulation to 4", and weatherstrip the door. Hopefully that will decrease the annual temperature swing. being underground the temperature changes seasonally but there are no short-term fluctuations. Is this acceptable for bulk aging and bottle storage?
3. There is a 4" vent pipe through the roof at the rear of the cellar. Is this good or should I cap it?

Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Also, I know it seems like a lot of work for eight bottles of wine, but I only made 10 gallons last year and a wedding and family reunion pretty much drank through that. I have 22 gallons brewing right now and plans for more in the spring, so come next summer I should start filling it up. If I don't give my wife the combination to the door, I might even start building an inventory .

Chuck


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 1, 2021)

1) concrete is nice mainly since you don’t have to worry about wildlife, But not essential! gravel will pack and make a nice work surface. you have washed stone? ,, which never packs, I would create a flat work surface by laying plastic decking over traffic areas. decking could be vacuumed if you ever break a carboy. ,,,, Remember in the old days everyone had a soil/ gravel surface, also food plant rules if it touches the floor we scrap it.
2) the temperatures aren’t bad! Daily cycling will draw microgram levels of oxygen through corks so daily cycles are bad. I like insulation, remember good gaskets on the door. ,,,, this is better than what many of us have.
3) the vent will be extremely useful, example if you want to run power to the cellar or put solar on the top with battery lighting. Yes I could see putting a removable closed cell foam plug in it. This also leads to humidity control choices.
4) humidity, do you have a way to monitor it? At 80% RH you will see mold on everything, including treated wood. At 50% you should be stable. This leads back to a floor, modern concrete will put a plastic moisture barrier in, if you need humidity control consider using a high density expanded polystyrene panel instead of eight mil poly.

. . . wish I had a space like that , ,


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## winemaker81 (Dec 1, 2021)

If you wire for lights, you can add a small heater for the coldest part of the winter.


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## salcoco (Dec 1, 2021)

try to keep the temp variance to less than 10 degrees.


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## balatonwine (Dec 1, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> Remember in the old days everyone had a soil/ gravel surface



Our wine cellar floor when we bought the property was simply dirt. Was dirt for the 100++ (do not know exactly) or so years the cellar existed before we bought it.

Our "upgrade" was digging down a bit, then adding compressed gravel then bricks**. The bricks simply helped to keep the floor level without issues if things "spilled" and needed a bit of mopping up (to prevent the floor from getting "fuzzy"....). Never even considered concrete.

** The bricks were also maybe 100 years old, from a nearby demolition we got rather cheaply.


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## ChuckD (Dec 1, 2021)

Thanks for all your input. 

The floor is washed stone, so it won't pack down. I never even thought of brick... that would look really nice and maintain drainage. I'll keep my eyes open for some used ones.

As for the temperature swings, I hope the added insulation will tighten that up a bit but I don't know if I can keep it to 10 degrees annually. I thought stability was more important than the upper and lower limit, no? I think I'll start looking for a reasonably priced recording thermometer and humidistat. Any thoughts? 

When I built the cellar, I put a 3/4" pvc pipe through the roof so I could run electricity. I think I'll push a rod up through that so I can feed some power in there. It's too late for trenching now but I could run an extension cord from the house for this winter.


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## ibglowin (Dec 1, 2021)

In a perfect cellar you try and minimize daily temp swings as well as annual temp variations. So IMHO anything you can do to further insulate the cellar will minimize the daily temp swings. Your Summer high temps are not a huge concern but anything you can do to keep it a little cooler will help out (again insulation should help here). Your Winter temps are however much cooler than preferred so anything you can do to bring those temps up closer to 55 will really help IMHO. Your wine is basically being cold stabilized for months each winter so you may see larger amounts of wine diamonds dropping out at those temps. Again insulation will help here and perhaps closing off the roof vent during the winter may help if your losing heat there. Lastly placing some sort of heater in the cellar during the coldest months of the winter should be a possibility. Perhaps one of those oil filled electric heaters would be enough to bring the temps up into the lower 50's.

If you have Wifi at the house one of these is great for keeping track of both temp and humidity with data logging (free).






Amazon.com: Govee WiFi Thermometer Hygrometer H5179001, Smart Humidity Temperature Sensor with App Notification Alert, 2 Years Free Data Storage Export, Remote Monitor for Room Greenhouse Incubator Wine Cellar : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com: Govee WiFi Thermometer Hygrometer H5179001, Smart Humidity Temperature Sensor with App Notification Alert, 2 Years Free Data Storage Export, Remote Monitor for Room Greenhouse Incubator Wine Cellar : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com





If no wifi then at least pick up a cheap temp/humidity gauge that at least you can look at the temps/humidity when you enter the cellar each time.


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## balatonwine (Dec 1, 2021)

ChuckD said:


> I never even thought of brick... that would look really nice and maintain drainage.



Yes, the brick, looks very good.

For reference, photos (10 years ago), below. After the walls were renovated, and fine gravel being laid down, then after the bricks are laid (and we started piling in some of our junk.... sorry for the mess.....)


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## ChuckD (Dec 1, 2021)

ibglowin said:


> In a perfect cellar you try and minimize daily temp swings as well as annual temp variations. So IMHO anything you can do to further insulate the cellar will minimize the daily temp swings. Your Summer high temps are not a huge concern but anything you can do to keep it a little cooler will help out (again insulation should help here). Your Winter temps are however much cooler than preferred so anything you can do to bring those temps up closer to 55 will really help IMHO. Your wine is basically being cold stabilized for months each winter so you may see larger amounts of wine diamonds dropping out at those temps.



Thanks. I just ordered a non-smart thermometer/hygrometer with 24hr max/min for the cellar. being underground I don't think daily temperature swings are going to be the issue, just the seasonal swing. I know colder temps speed settling of lees, and I have come across cold stabilization in my readings... is it a good thing to do? and what are the ice diamonds you speak of? I do have an oil filled heater that I use in my basement bathroom/fermenting room. If needed I can put that in the cellar during the coldest months.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 1, 2021)

Wine diamonds (not "ice diamonds") are preciptated potassium bitartrate (aka, cream of tartar).


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## winemaker81 (Dec 1, 2021)

Cold stabilization is cooling the wine to below 40 F and keeping it there for a week or 2. Closer to 32 F is better, but any temperature in the range works. Some folks will go below freezing, but I recommend against it. Freezing wine damages it, and the freezing point of wine is not a constant value -- it varies with ABV, sugar, and other constituents.

The cool temperature lowers the saturation threshold for tartaric acid, and excess drops out of suspension as crystals. This reduces the acidity of the wine somewhat and has the side benefit of clearing the wine, as other solids will drop with the tartrates.

Rack the wine before it warms up.

If the wine is not high in acid, I don't see a real value in cold stabilization. When I lived in Upstate NY, I did it for my Finger Lakes whites as they were all high in acid. Putting the carboys on my porch for 2 weeks reduced the acid and they came out crystal clear.

My cellar is 58 F in the winter and I've noticed some wines have dropped crystals at that temperature. Some folks bulk age at a lower temperature, as some crystals may drop -- this prevents crystals in the bottle if someone leaves one in the fridge for a week or 3.


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## jak (Dec 2, 2021)

Keep in mind that anything you do to insulate decreases air flow which will increase humidity. I would not use an kind of oil heater as it will make some fumes (even if it says ventless heater). But if you use a burning heater, I would also add a carbon monoxide detector in there. Elec heater would be safer. If humidity is too high, you could put down plastic sheathing under bricks or planks or even sheets of plywood. Yes, wood and plastic sheathing on the floor would fail eventually, but it will last for years.


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## ChuckD (Dec 2, 2021)

I'm OK with the washed stone for now... I just like the look of brick so I will do that if I can find some freebies. The oil filled heater I have is an electric heater with oil in it to absorb and radiate the heat. They do a good job of maintaining a set temperature with minimal fluctuation. Copy that on the humidity with ventless heaters... I use a propane construction heater and wood stove in my shop, and you can't burn the propane too long or you get lots of condensation on cast iron tools which leads to rust. My new digital thermometer/hygrometer for the cellar should be here on Monday so I can monitor humidity levels.


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## ChuckD (Dec 5, 2021)

So, the temperature in the cellar had been sitting tight at 44 degrees so I added 2" of high-density foam-board to the "outside" wall, plugged the vent pipe, and weather stripped the door. After a few days the temperature climbed about two degrees. On the outside of the roof, I have two inches of foam-board and about two feet of fill so I'm probably losing a lot of heat through the ceiling as well. I have one of those infra-red thermometers, so I checked, and the roof was 42 degrees while the lower walls and floor were at 48. Yesterday I put my oil-filled heater in the cellar and set the temp to 48 degrees and that's where it was today. I plan on increasing the temperature a few degrees a day until I hit 55 or so then leaving it there for the winter. 




My thermometer/hygrometer won't be here until tomorrow, so I don't have any humidity readings, but it feels really high right now... like nearing 100%... my breath was condensing on the ceiling and my note pad was damp after a few hours. What are my options for humidity control? The cellar is 6.5 feet x 10 feet with a 6.5 foot ceiling height. Is a room sized dehumidifier too large? should I open the vent and put in a fan to circulate the air a little? should I seal the block walls? Any help would be appreciated.


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## hounddawg (Dec 6, 2021)

a dehumidifier might help you, they tend to be handy in underground homes,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Dec 6, 2021)

i have been contemplating on some 8 foot tall by 10 foot long galvanized culvert, placed where the top is at a elevation of 4 feet below the surface, 
with access from a closet down to a wine bottle cellar, 
Dawg


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 6, 2021)

*the first step in humidity control is to have a vapor barrier on all surfaces, especially the floor.
* you have a heater running now, so I doubt that you are close to 100%, it is called relative humidity not absolute humidity. The moisture holding capacity of air increases as the temperature rises therefore a constant N grams of water could be 100% at 42F (ceiling) but a significantly lower at 55F.
* barrels are best with higher humidity since it reduces the angels share
* fans/ air movement reduces the risk of mold (localized high humidity)
* a small motor operated dehumidifier might be overkill/ act as a heat source, the one I run in the basement has a digital humidity readout and will cycle on/ off instead of just running
* there is a chemical/ no electricity moisture pickup system which is advertised for closets, might be enough especially on a tight box
* venting is trial and error, you need readings to get an idea how much moisture wicks in, if you don’t have iridescent salt build up on the walls wicking moisture shouldn’t be too bad
* your photo looks good, expanded polystyrene tolerates moisture but isocyanurate board doesn’t (it is a nitrogen polymer).


ChuckD said:


> My thermometer/hygrometer won't be here until tomorrow, so I don't have any humidity readings, but it feels really high right now... like nearing 100%... my breath was condensing on the ceiling and my note pad was damp after a few hours. What are my options for humidity control? The cellar is 6.5 feet x 10 feet with a 6.5 foot ceiling height. Is a room sized dehumidifier too large? should I open the vent and put in a fan to circulate the air a little? should I seal the block walls? Any help would be appreciated.


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## montanarick (Dec 6, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> *the first step in humidity control is to have a vapor barrier on all surfaces, especially the floor.
> * you have a heater running now, so I doubt that you are close to 100%, it is called relative humidity not absolute humidity. The moisture holding capacity of air increases as the temperature rises therefore a constant N grams of water could be 100% at 42F (ceiling) but a significantly lower at 55F.
> * barrels are best with higher humidity since it reduces the angels share
> * fans/ air movement reduces the risk of mold (localized high humidity)
> ...


You are always a wealth of information


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## ChuckD (Dec 6, 2021)

I got my temp/humidity gauge today and put it in the cellar. After 6 hours of acclimation the temperature is 46 degrees with a relative humidity of 83%. I'm still increasing the temperature slowly with the heater (shooting for two degrees per day or less) so we will see where the humidity is when I hit 55 degrees.

For now, I'm just going to add a small fan to circulate the air. Once I get the temperature up, I'll try playing with opening the vent a little to let some of the moist air out. I could add vapor barrier to the floor but I sure as hell won't be digging up the cellar to add vapor barrier to the walls. A dehumidifier would work in the winter because I could actually use the heat they generate. In the summer it might create too much heat. Either way, I would rather not spend the $200.


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 7, 2021)

In home construction the vapor barrier is applied to the warm side of the wall, this is to prevent humidity in the living area from hitting cold fiberglass > creating ice > losing essentially all insulation value. For home use I think the paint companies have come up with basement wall barriers as Ugly Paint. @mainshipfred you are in the business, any favorite wall skin? Menards also has a builder counter where contractors can leave their business card, it might be worth while talking to some local folks who do basements, ,,,, this is not a new problem.
You are thinking about slowly getting to a target of 55F. My gut feel is that a soil moisture balance creating today’s humidity will take longer than reaching a temperature balance, if you have a controller like an ink bird ($19) I would set it where you want the temp and let the controller do the monitoring so you get to a soil moisture balance faster. (Ink bird also has cooling contacts for summer). You are in a part of the country with snow/ freezing soil, you will actually reach a winter equilibrium. When the soil thaws expect that you have a new seasonal balance and that summer is the only time where mold is an issue. ,,,, mold spores in the environment is low in heating season.
Using 1970s technology one of the labs at U of I ran summers with AC cooling below target and then heating the air back up to proper working temp/ relative humidity. Granger and HVAC companies have controls to automate this. ,,,, There are neat solutions like condensate pumps and condensers but if you can use a chemical absorbent it sure is a lot less fuss.


ChuckD said:


> I got my temp/humidity gauge today and put it in the cellar. After 6 hours of acclimation the temperature is 46 degrees with a relative humidity of 83%. I'm still increasing the temperature slowly with the heater (shooting for two degrees per day or less) so we will see where the humidity is when I hit 55 degrees.
> 
> For now, I'm just going to add a small fan to circulate the air. Once I get the temperature up, I'll try playing with opening the vent a little to let some of the moist air out. I could add vapor barrier to the floor but I sure as hell won't be digging up the cellar to add vapor barrier to the walls. A dehumidifier would work in the winter because I could actually use the heat they generate. In the summer it might create too much heat. Either way, I would rather not spend the $200.


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## ChuckD (Dec 7, 2021)

Thanks. I guess I could seal the interior with a concrete sealer to help control the humidity. I think I’ll just monitor the situation for now while I get the temperature up where it belongs. I don’t want to be doing any painting until I can open it up and crank up some fans. We will see what summer brings.


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## bstnh1 (Dec 8, 2021)

ChuckD said:


> I got my temp/humidity gauge today and put it in the cellar. After 6 hours of acclimation the temperature is 46 degrees with a relative humidity of 83%. I'm still increasing the temperature slowly with the heater (shooting for two degrees per day or less) so we will see where the humidity is when I hit 55 degrees.
> 
> For now, I'm just going to add a small fan to circulate the air. Once I get the temperature up, I'll try playing with opening the vent a little to let some of the moist air out. I could add vapor barrier to the floor but I sure as hell won't be digging up the cellar to add vapor barrier to the walls. A dehumidifier would work in the winter because I could actually use the heat they generate. In the summer it might create too much heat. Either way, I would rather not spend the $200.


$200 is just the beginning when you buy a dehumidifier. The cost of running it will soon dwarf what you paid for it!


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## ChuckD (Dec 8, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> $200 is just the beginning when you buy a dehumidifier. The cost of running it will soon dwarf what you paid for it!


I have been looking at some of the desiccant dehumidifiers. Do you have any experience with them? I was wondering about added heat and operating costs. This is a very small space (6’x10’x7’high)


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## montanarick (Dec 9, 2021)

maybe you could try some "DamRrid" we've always used it in our RV to keep humidity under control


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## MisterEd (Dec 9, 2021)

Thoroseal is an excellent concrete sealer. I used it my well cistern and also have it on the walls of my converted 1000 gallon buried storage tank/wine cellar. It stops all moisture migration and has been applied for over 15 years with no failure or problems.

The dehumidifier would be a good winter solution as it provides the heat output as well.


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## ChuckD (Dec 9, 2021)

I have the temp up to 52 and the humidity is pretty stable at 90%. I have the roof vent pipe open and I’m going to put a small adjustable vent in the door to let some colder dry air in. At least my corks won’t dry out . 

I will put a vapor barrier on the floor and start sealing walls this summer. Does anyone have experience with the small thermoelectric dehumidifiers? Most of them are rated for a pint or two a day. Just wondering about how much heat they put out.


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## ChuckD (Dec 29, 2021)

I have had the oil filled heater in the cellar for a month now. I have it set at 60 degrees and the cellar is holding at 55 degrees. RH has leveled out at 74%. I had two wines bulk aging in the wine room (aka basement bathroom) at 62 degrees but I had to up the temperature to restart a stuck fermentation so I transferred the apple and an elderberry wine to the cellar.



this spring I plan to put a vapor barrier paint on the walls and waterproof the floor to control humidity.


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## ratflinger (Dec 29, 2021)

Sure you want to wait? That paint seems to be getting more expensive every day.


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## ChuckD (Dec 30, 2021)

ratflinger said:


> Sure you want to wait? That paint seems to be getting more expensive every day.


I plan on doing it when the outdoor temp hits 50 so I can vent it good for a few days while painting and after. So, like May.


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## ChuckD (Jan 5, 2022)

Just an update on the cellar. I got the temperature up to 55 where it is holding very steady with continuous heat set at 60. The humidity was very high but is falling now that the cold winter air is here 


I’m sure I will need to address humidity this summer. I also think I can keep the temps up a little easier next year. When I was remodeling the cellar I left the door open for at least a week and let the temperature plummet to 42. I was thinking at the time that, like veggies, just above freezing was good.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 6, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Just an update on the cellar. I got the temperature up to 55 where it is holding very steady with continuous heat set at 60. The humidity was very high but is falling now that the cold winter air is here
> View attachment 82986
> 
> I’m sure I will need to address humidity this summer. I also think I can keep the temps up a little easier next year. When I was remodeling the cellar I left the door open for at least a week and let the temperature plummet to 42. I was thinking at the time that, like veggies, just above freezing was good.



Hopefully you will level off to 60-65% which would be ideal. Even 55% wouldn't be hateful. I keep mine at 62-65%


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## ChuckD (Jan 6, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> Hopefully you will level off to 60-65% which would be ideal. Even 55% wouldn't be hateful. I keep mine at 62-65%


Thanks. I imagine it’s a lot easier to increase humidity than decrease it. I’ll continue to track the temperature and humidity during the summer.


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## ibglowin (Jan 6, 2022)

Nicely done!


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 6, 2022)

*A caution if you plan to ferment inside the cellar*, OR another reason to actively use the roof vent > yeast produce CO2!

Oscar Meyer uses CO2 to put hogs asleep as they are conveyed to the kill floor
In the old days of tall dairy silos the CO2 build up from fermenting silage would take out a farmer once and a while

IF you ferment in glass or plastic low humidity doesn’t matter.


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## ChuckD (Jan 6, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> *A caution if you plan to ferment inside the cellar*, OR another reason to actively use the roof vent > yeast produce CO2!


No fermenting. I plan on using the cellar for bulk aging and wine storage. I also keep totes of empties in there. I’ll shoot for 55 degrees in the winter. It tends to get into the mid 60’s in the summer. I wouldn’t have guessed that a few 5 gallon batches of wine could produce lethal levels of CO2.


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## Ohio Bob (Jan 29, 2022)

Not sure what I can add here to some well placed advice you’ve already received. I’m in northern Ohio and my wine cellar was built when the house was built. Concrete floor, insulated walls to keep the rest of the basement from heating it up, placed on the northeast corner of the house. My cellar is 55F in winter, 65F in summer, which is good enough for making wine from buckets of juice. If I had access to fresh California juice I might think differently.

I strongly agree with previous posts about keeping wood out of the cellar. Humidity will continue to foster mold on those surfaces. Your vent pipe might be the trick to get power in but also to transfer the air. Air has little thermal capacity compared to the cellar because it has no mass. Refreshing the air volume may have little effect on the temperature of the cellar. Or at least something you can live with.


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## ChuckD (Jan 29, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> Not sure what I can add here to some well placed advice you’ve already received. I’m in northern Ohio and my wine cellar was built when the house was built. Concrete floor, insulated walls to keep the rest of the basement from heating it up, placed on the northeast corner of the house. My cellar is 55F in winter, 65F in summer, which is good enough for making wine from buckets of juice. If I had access to fresh California juice I might think differently.
> 
> I strongly agree with previous posts about keeping wood out of the cellar. Humidity will continue to foster mold on those surfaces. Your vent pipe might be the trick to get power in but also to transfer the air. Air has little thermal capacity compared to the cellar because it has no mass. Refreshing the air volume may have little effect on the temperature of the cellar. Or at least something you can live with.


I’m building an addition on the house this year and the basement wall will be within a foot or two of the cellar so it will expose that wall. I’ll take advantage of that and insulate the block from the outside. I also plan on putting a door through from the new basement where I’m planning a wine making area. Another two feet of fill over the roof of the cellar when I’m all done should help keep the temperature stable.


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## pproctorga (Jan 30, 2022)

As for CO2 I ferment in my cellar and was concerned about high levels. I have ventilation fans I can turn on so I put an O2 sensor in to ensure proper air quality. As an example I just finished 3 five gallon batches and the O2 never got below 20%. The cellar has a tight seal with concrete floor and walls and foam above. I never have to run the fans. I really thought I’d see the O2 levels vary more.


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## bstnh1 (Jan 31, 2022)

The CO2 from the fermentation of the wine in a 750-milliliter bottle is approximately 0.01 grams—_grams!_


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## ChuckD (Apr 28, 2022)

Cellar Update:
Well as soon as the frost went out of the ground the relative humidity shot right up to 90%. The gravel floor is wet but no standing water. There is minimal moisture on the walls. I have the door cracked now and a fan inside to get some air circulation. Outdoor temps are still in the 30’s at night and around 50 in the day.

This fall I’ll cover the gravel with a heavy rubber roof material then pour concrete. I think I’ll add a small sump pit so I can pump out any water that might accumulate. I’ll also be sealing the walls with the thoroseal.


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## ChuckD (Apr 29, 2022)

You know it’s damp in the cellar when you have these guys guarding the wine!


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## vinny (Apr 29, 2022)

That's a nice root cellar. It's going to make a pretty awesome wine cellar. I was trying to steal ideas. Mine is probably a little bigger, and we don't need half of it. I was wondering if I could convert half to dry/wine storage, but I'm buried in a few feet deep. I don't think I could get it warm enough on just one side. Doors closed, it doesn't get above 6 C in the heat of summer. That's about 42 'Merican. It's a long way from power, too. 

I had a couple thoughts reading through, though. Your standard poly vapour barrier should be plenty for underneath the concrete. It is all I have in my crawl space over gravel and it is 62% humidity right now. 5 degree outside and it's cold, wet, warm, cold, as we go though the melt. Outdoor humidity is 51% right now.

You could drill your floor rebar into your cinder blocks to keep the floor and walls shifting together and seal the gap between wall and floor with a flexible caulk. Paint the floor into the walls to really seal it up.

I have good ventilation in the crawl space which keeps the humidity down as well. If you are putting a door into the basement addition, you could come up with a simple air exchange system either based on humidity or temperature control to turn fans on. Next to the door? In the door? One high vent from basement to cellar, another low cold/moist air return vent from cellar to basement. Might be easier than trying to use an independent heat system and external ventilation. Depending on your intended use for the basement, if it's a nice middle ground temperature, lower than upstairs temperature, but higher than cellar, it could be a good avenue for balancing temps and humidity with relative ease.

Last thought, if you were considering more insulation for temperature control the reflective insulation below can add around R-10 with one layer. If you glued it to your walls it would also act as a vapour barrier.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 29, 2022)

OK so I’m not comfortable with plugging the 4 inch vent. Is there any way you can use that to make it sort of a heat exchanger system. Not letting direct outside (cold or warm air) in through there but somehow running it to or through a temperature controlled space.
what heater are you using now ? your best bet is a small electric heater, or a hydro electric heater (electric liquid filled baseboard) 

anything else will eat up oxygen and add moisture.

if your humidity is too high a humidifier has 2 benefits. It removes moisture and the compressor used to take humidity out actually warms the air a little.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 29, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I have the temp up to 52 and the humidity is pretty stable at 90%. I have the roof vent pipe open and I’m going to put a small adjustable vent in the door to let some colder dry air in. At least my corks won’t dry out .


 90% is like a swimming pool.


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## ChuckD (Apr 29, 2022)

@vinny 
If you have a warmer side and a cooler side you could divide it with an insulated wall with another door. Could you do some sort of passive solar heater above ground and circulate the warmth down to the cellar? It wouldn’t take much to go from 45 to 55. When I build the addition I’ll add more insulation to the roof and another foot or more of soil on top. When I get it connected to the new basement I’ll have plenty of temperature control options. 

@FlamingoEmporium
This winter I used an electric oilfield heater to keep it around 52. With our dry winter air the humidity crashed… only to spike up to “amphibian” levels as soon as the ground thawed. We will see what summer brings but I think sealing the walls and floor will make for big improvements.


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## ChuckD (Apr 29, 2022)

@vinny 
Do you have a roof vent? If you want to actively draw in warm outside air into the cellar with no power install a solar chimney on the top vent. It’s just an oversized pvc pipe about 6 feet tall painted black. The sun hits it and warms the air inside. If you have a low vent you open that and it will draw in warmer outside air. You would just need a damper to control air inflow to maintain your desired temperature.


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## vinny (Apr 30, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> @vinny
> Do you have a roof vent? If you want to actively draw in warm outside air into the cellar with no power install a solar chimney on the top vent. It’s just an oversized pvc pipe about 6 feet tall painted black. The sun hits it and warms the air inside. If you have a low vent you open that and it will draw in warmer outside air. You would just need a damper to control air inflow to maintain your desired temperature.



I do. Mine is a bit of a challenge. It's a cistern that cracked coming out of the mould, so they didn't put the floor on it. I cut a door centered in the front with a concrete saw, built out a frame, edged it in galvanised steel and used a fridge door to seal it. It has a front room to isolate it from outside temps as you enter. I dug into a hill and only the first door is visible. Everything else is buried. It works amazing for root vegetables, but I didn't leave much room to change anything.

It did shift under the weight of all the backfill, I've been considering redoing the front room which is built from wood. I'll have to really research my options to see what I can do. Maybe I can add a middle room that I can regulate. The biggest concern is we hit -40 here for a spell every winter. Last year we had a long stretch and hit -55 with wind chill for a time. I don't know if I can do much passive heating that would combat that. 

My shop is 40x60 2x6 framed construction. With a concrete pad that size and good insulation it is easy to regulate temps. Right now my business is more than utilising it, but like all things wine, if I am patient I will have all that space to work with once we move the business out. 

I just can't help but see a good idea and think, damn, I should do that. 

I thought some of my ideas might spark an idea too, but you obviously have your plans and options well thought out.


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## ChuckD (Apr 30, 2022)

vinny said:


> I thought some of my ideas might spark an idea too, but you obviously have your plans and options well thought out.


Oh you have. When I build the addition I’ll add low and high chases through from the basement. Even if I don’t use them it’s easy to do when everything is dug up and we are forming walls. Actually the whole new basement is going to be wine my making/game processing/canning kitchen. It will even have an exterior entrance facing the garden and vineyard.

for the poured floor, if I dig out the stone I’ll expose the footings so I could drill and tie into them with a water stop in between the new floor and footing. The cellar ceiling is already only 6’-5” in the center and I don’t want to make it any shorter.


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## vinny (Apr 30, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Actually the whole new basement is going to be wine my making/game processing/canning kitchen. It will even have an exterior entrance facing the garden and vineyard.



Good for you, that's gonna nice to have. Just don't ever do the math on how much a bottle of wine costs including all the upgrades! 

Are you still planning your vineyard, or have you got it established? I have been considering planting some vines to see what happens. I know it's possible, but winters are going to be hell on them.


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## ChuckD (Apr 30, 2022)

vinny said:


> Good for you, that's gonna nice to have. Just don't ever do the math on how much a bottle of wine costs including all the upgrades!
> 
> Are you still planning your vineyard, or have you got it established? I have been considering planting some vines to see what happens. I know it's possible, but winters are going to be hell on them.


YEP!
The area is cleared and ready for the plow. My neighbor is going to plow it up a few times to cut up the sod then drag it flat for planting grass. The grapes will be here the second week of June! 50 Marquette and 26 Petite Pearl


-40F. That’s going to be a tough one. I plan for -25 and we haven’t seen that in many years here.


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## vinny (Apr 30, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> YEP!
> The area is cleared and ready for the plow. My neighbor is going to plow it up a few times to cut up the sod then drag it flat for planting grass. The grapes will be here the second week of June! 50 Marquette and 26 Petite Pearl
> View attachment 87729



 Not messing around!

You have a similar landscape to here. Maybe the country always just looks like home to me? 



ChuckD said:


> -40F. That’s going to be a tough one. I plan for -25 and we haven’t seen that in many years here.



Ya, that's why I was thinking I could give it an uncommited go with a few vines and see if it's just a set up for heartbreak.


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## ChuckD (Apr 30, 2022)

@vinny 
Yeah, check out the book “Northern Winework” by Tom Plocher and Bob Parke. Plocher has developed several hardy grape varieties. U of Minnesota does a lot with northern grapes as well. 

The basement won’t be anything fancy. Painted concrete walls and floors with a stainless commercial sink and some rehabbed cabinets.


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## vinny (Apr 30, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Painted concrete walls and floors with a stainless commercial sink and some rehabbed cabinets.


Sounds glorious!


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## ChuckD (Aug 13, 2022)

So we had 2.7” of rain overnight and this morning I went out to the cellar to check airlocks and found this



It gets damp but in 26 year’s I’ve never seen standing water! A little sleuthing and I found the problem. The downspout water dumps on the ground near the top of the cellar and it formed a sinkhole behind the retaining wall, exiting in the little “well” at the door of the cellar. 


I have a drain tile under the “well” so it drained out in a few hours. The last two months have been dry so the humidity in the cellar had dropped into the 70’s. It’s a tad higher now!

I still plan on pouring a floor and sealing the walls this fall. Looks like I need to fill that hole and reroute the rain gutter outfall too.


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 14, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> The last two months have been dry so the humidity in the cellar had dropped into the 70’s. It’s a tad higher now!.


After seeing cellars in Europe, ,,, the humidity isn’t high enough unless the walls have black mold.


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