# This year's Crush



## Donz (Oct 5, 2022)

Seems like there is not as much activity here for this time of year! So, here are some pics of this year's crush.

We did a Zin as always 80% Old vine Zin / 12% Carignane / 8% Alicante Bouschet. Also a Cab 42% / Sangiovese 42% / Merlot 16%

Ferment is well under way with Avante and Bravo again this year. Pressing this weekend.


----------



## Cynewulf (Oct 5, 2022)

Donz said:


> Seems like there is not as much activity here for this time of year! So, here are some pics of this year's crush.


I’ve been thinking the same thing and have been missing all the harvest and crush photos. Thanks for sharing yours!


----------



## VinesnBines (Oct 6, 2022)

Harvest pictures. I should have taken more crush pictures.


----------



## crushday (Oct 6, 2022)

Donz said:


> Ferment is well under way with Avante and Bravo again this year. Pressing this weekend.


Really plump looking fruit. You say you're pressing this weekend - that's in 3 or 4 days. Obviously, you're planning on pressing before AF has completed unless there's a several day delay in your supplied pics. Can you share your thoughts on that?


----------



## Donz (Oct 6, 2022)

It has been six days since pitching the yeast and we're almost completely dry today. Plan is to press on Saturday... I'll take some pics of my old press that has been in the family since 1956!

Fruit was really nice this year, especially the Zin.


----------



## ibglowin (Oct 6, 2022)

Wow! Definitely some drop dead gorgeous fruit you got there. And you are in Canada?




Donz said:


> Seems like there is not as much activity here for this time of year! So, here are some pics of this year's crush.
> 
> We did a Zin as always 80% Old vine Zin / 12% Carignane / 8% Alicante Bouschet. Also a Cab 42% / Sangiovese 42% / Merlot 16%
> 
> ...


----------



## Donz (Oct 6, 2022)

Yes, in Montreal Canada. The fruit is from Lodi, and we get it here under the Caterina label, it's normally really nice. From what I understand, it's distributed from Elkhorn fruit company in Lodi.


----------



## Obbnw (Oct 6, 2022)

Tempranillo - we destem by hand and it is obvious my wife did this 7 gallon bucket since the grapes are still intact and so clean (have another full 7 gallon bucket out of the picture that I did that is much messier). Mashed them with a potato masher, measured sugar and PH (24 and 3.6), dumped a packet of premier rouge, fermented for about 6 days to 1.01, did a light press and combined the juice in one completely full 7 gallon bucket, fermented to dry for a week or so, racked into 3.5 gallon jars. Will let sit till around thanksgiving before I think about racking again. Only 10 more buckets to go ; )


----------



## Flufnagel (Oct 6, 2022)

Hopefully this isn't too many photos in a single post...! Here's a few random samples from my 2022 efforts.

This year's fruit (5 lugs, 180 lb) was Zinfandel 26 brix, Barbera 22 brix, Merlot 22.8 brix, and Sauvignon Blanc 23.6 brix, all trucked in from Lodi/Central Valley. I sourced the grapes from Corrado's in Clifton NJ which is 20 minutes from where I live.

After crushing, I pulled 2L of juice each from the Barbera and Merlot (_saignée_ method) and combined them 50/50 to make a small 4L batch of rosé, which I have never tried before. The Sauv. Blanc is obviously on its own; I'm aging _sur lie_ with 10g/gal American oak on that one, going for something less edgy/acidic and a bit deeper. The grapes and pressed juice are shown below.

After fermenting each varietal individually, I pressed the Zin and Barbera together as a 7:3 blend (6 gal). I pressed Merlot by itself but ended up blending it with some of the Zin mix in a 2:1 ratio (3 gal) since the Merlot seemed a little flat on its own.

Everything is racked and topped up in various states of rest at the moment, awaiting next steps. I also have a blueberry wine going in primary, not pictured!


----------



## Donz (Oct 6, 2022)

This is where we stand with the Zin today


----------



## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 6, 2022)

Donz said:


> Seems like there is not as much activity here for this time of year! So, here are some pics of this year's crush.
> 
> We did a Zin as always 80% Old vine Zin / 12% Carignane / 8% Alicante Bouschet. Also a Cab 42% / Sangiovese 42% / Merlot 16%
> 
> ...


Both of those blends sound so good.


----------



## Ajmassa (Oct 6, 2022)

Flufnagel said:


> Hopefully this isn't too many photos in a single post...! Here's a few random samples from my 2022 efforts.


the answer is no. There is no such thing as “too many photos“ on this site!

great post btw. I grabbed grapes from Corrado’s once before. I love how they line up all the gear outside in the lot. when you pull up it’s like an army of barrels and demijohns in battle-ready formation. Congrats on a another successful wine season.


----------



## Flufnagel (Oct 7, 2022)

Ajmassa said:


> Congrats on a another successful wine season.


Thanks! Well, it seems off to a good start, anyway. 

The scene at Corrado's is fun. Contractor vans and pickup trucks backed up to the loading dock, various middle aged guys of mostly southern European descent, clearly enthusiastic to commence the yearly ritual.

I have seen some negative comments about Corrado's, but they're so much closer to me than Gino Pinto, and that enables me to be impulsive which is what typically happens when my schedule has an opening. There's a place in Elizabeth (Europa Pombalense) that I may check out next year. But honestly, I have no complaints about the 2021 and 2022 grapes I've gotten from Corrado's.

Here's to good wine from this year's grapes in 2023!


----------



## Donz (Oct 7, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Both of those blends sound so good.


Both great blends that we have done for many years. I normally try and blend Petit Syrah with the Zin but we couldn't get any this year, so I swapped it with Alicante.


----------



## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 7, 2022)

Flufnagel said:


> Thanks! Well, it seems off to a good start, anyway.
> 
> The scene at Corrado's is fun. Contractor vans and pickup trucks backed up to the loading dock, various middle aged guys of mostly southern European descent, clearly enthusiastic to commence the yearly ritual.
> 
> ...


I get all my grapes from friends vineyards, local wineries sometimes sell me excess fruit and etc. I work in the industry so it’s pretty easy to get grapes and borrow macro bins and etc


----------



## Cynewulf (Oct 7, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> I get all my grapes from friends vineyards, local wineries sometimes sell me excess fruit and etc. I work in the industry so it’s pretty easy to get grapes and borrow macro bins and etc


Awesome - let’s see the photos!


----------



## Jbu50 (Oct 7, 2022)

Yes it’s been a quiet 2022 crush out here this year.


----------



## David Violante (Oct 8, 2022)

Flufnagel said:


> Hopefully this isn't too many photos in a single post...! Here's a few random samples from my 2022 efforts.



Love your DIY press!


----------



## David Violante (Oct 8, 2022)

We did 4 lugs of DeChaunac and another 6 of Steuben. This was the first time I did a saignee and was amazed at how thick the remaining must was. I ended up just breaking the cap and stirring by hand. Well, sanitized hand… I didn’t expect the variety of temperature of the must either. I thought it would be more uniform. The cap was warm, the must just underneath really warm, and the bottom quite cool.


----------



## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 8, 2022)

Cynewulf said:


> Awesome - let’s see the photos!


I will be picking my last grapes of the year tomorrow and will post photos for you.


----------



## Cap Puncher (Oct 10, 2022)

David Violante said:


> We did 4 lugs of DeChaunac and another 6 of Steuben


Did you use Prelude on these?


----------



## David Violante (Oct 10, 2022)

I didn't... I should have though...! I moved where I store them and totally forgot. I used RC212 on both. Very interestingly, the DeChaunac moved through fermentation quickly. The Steubens I cold soaked and then fermented, and their fermentation temperature remained cool and took a bit longer even in the same fermentation space.


----------



## hawkwing (Oct 10, 2022)

David Violante said:


> I didn't... I should have though...! I moved where I store them and totally forgot. I used RC212 on both. Very interestingly, the DeChaunac moved through fermentation quickly. The Steubens I cold soaked and then fermented, and their fermentation temperature remained cool and took a bit longer even in the same fermentation space.


Did you have any sulfur smells? I just heard about that issue but have never experienced it before. I think adding some DAP part way through and maybe the beginning helps prevent it. I’ve always used yeast nutrients so maybe that’s why I’ve never experienced that.


----------



## David Violante (Oct 10, 2022)

I didn't smell any H2S. 

I use a nutrient protocol on all my fermentations of GoFerm, Fermaid O, and K. They didn't need any DAP, which I would only use towards the end if needed. Actually, the gallon I pulled off from the Steubens as saignee for a rose got down to 1.010 and seemed to stall. I warmed it a little from 62 to 68 and that didn't help, so I added a small amount of DAP and it finished nicely. The remaining original amount finished on their own at 62. There was probably enough YAN in the must with the remaining grape skins.


----------



## cmason1957 (Oct 11, 2022)

Didn't think I was going to be able to make any wine from grapes this year. 
Pickup was supposed to be the weekend I was in Arizona.
Got a call last Thursday that the grower I get grapes from had about 500 lbs of Chambourcin, how much did I want.
Wife agreed that 200 lbs should be about right, so out to Swiss, MO (about 20 miles south of Hermann, MO) and today 
we have wonderful fermentation going. First picture early this morning before punching down. and second is about 5 minutes after punch down.
Looks and smells like a winery in the basement. 24 brix, so probably 13.5%ABV or thereabouts. 

Doing something new, co-inoculation of Malolactic Bacteria. (My wifes comment to that was don't F*@K UP my Chambourcin)


----------



## VinesnBines (Oct 11, 2022)

Very nice! I have about 250 lbs of my Chambourcin in a Brute, I pitched the yeast last night so I'm going to do the first punch down soon. I had the fruit flies under control until this morning.  I'll post pictures of the must ASAP.


----------



## winemaker81 (Oct 11, 2022)

cmason1957 said:


> Looks and smells like a winery in the basement.


Ditto! Mrs. WM81 hates the smell of fermentation -- I've got the windows in the wine area open and a fan running, so less "aroma" will waft upstairs.

Dang! That looks beautiful!


----------



## cmason1957 (Oct 11, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Very nice! I have about 250 lbs of my Chambourcin in a Brute, I pitched the yeast last night so I'm going to do the first punch down soon. I had the fruit flies under control until this morning.  I'll post pictures of the must ASAP.



I control the fruit flies by just having a fan running in the fermentation area. Never have much problem with them. 



winemaker81 said:


> Ditto! Mrs. WM81 hates the smell of fermentation -- I've got the windows in the wine area open and a fan running, so less "aroma" will waft upstairs.
> 
> Dang! That looks beautiful!



I count myself very lucky that my wife is also my cellar rat. She loves the smells of winemaking. Just wishes she could smell it better. Right now she has a cold and sinus issues, can't smell nothing.


----------



## Ajmassa (Oct 11, 2022)

David Violante said:


> I didn't smell any H2S.
> 
> I use a nutrient protocol on all my fermentations of GoFerm, Fermaid O, and K. They didn't need any DAP, which I would only use towards the end if needed. Actually, the gallon I pulled off from the Steubens as saignee for a rose got down to 1.010 and seemed to stall. I warmed it a little from 62 to 68 and that didn't help, so I added a small amount of DAP and it finished nicely. The remaining original amount finished on their own at 62. There was probably enough YAN in the must with the remaining grape skins.


Sounds like you’re having some fun over there Dave! RC212 is def legit. That bad rap is a moot point if using nutrients. 

And those grapes….— I’ve honestly never once in my life heard of either of them before lol. But I certainly have heard of saigneé. And a sluggish rosé. Can’t say for sure but my theory is the juice lacks a ton of the nitrogen from little maceration time. I plan to use more nutrients for rosé in the future if not testing YAN. 

But the later stage DAP is actually what compelled me to post. I’ve been under the impression that it’s the direct _opposite_ of what you said. That once the abv reaches a certain point the DAP no longer helps the yeast but actually will feed the nasties instead b/c …. science. (*fact checkers-lookin your way!)

And thought Ferm-O is recommended if later stage nutrients are needed specifically b/c it lacks DAP. Now I may be completely wrong here and I can’t cite sources, but i committed it to memory so it must have come from somewhere lol. 
Regardless though the wine gods were on your side. I’m glad to see everything worked out.


----------



## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 12, 2022)

Ajmassa said:


> Sounds like you’re having some fun over there Dave! RC212 is def legit. That bad rap is a moot point if using nutrients.
> 
> And those grapes….— I’ve honestly never once in my life heard of either of them before lol. But I certainly have heard of saigneé. And a sluggish rosé. Can’t say for sure but my theory is the juice lacks a ton of the nitrogen from little maceration time. I plan to use more nutrients for rosé in the future if not testing YAN.
> 
> ...


Saignee is a common practice when you get fruit that lacks flavor and concentration it’s popular in the wine region I work in for the premium wines the cheaper wines don’t do it and are way less interesting or exciting and bland. 

It improves the flavor and body of a wine a lot.


----------



## VinesnBines (Oct 12, 2022)

Chambourcin this morning before and after punch down. I don’t have much room to spare but the ferment is cool and slow.


----------



## Donz (Oct 12, 2022)

We pressed on Saturday, started bright and early. The Zin smells amazing and has a normal dark purple color even more so this year with the addition of Alicante. The Cab/Sangio/Merlot is more on the red side and also smelling great. Everything is transferred to my basement cellar for barrel and demijohn aging. Wraps up 48 cases this year.


----------



## David Violante (Oct 12, 2022)

Ajmassa said:


> Sounds like you’re having some fun over there Dave! RC212 is def legit. That bad rap is a moot point if using nutrients.
> 
> And those grapes….— I’ve honestly never once in my life heard of either of them before lol. But I certainly have heard of saigneé. And a sluggish rosé. Can’t say for sure but my theory is the juice lacks a ton of the nitrogen from little maceration time. I plan to use more nutrients for rosé in the future if not testing YAN.
> 
> ...


AJ I actually learned the saignee process from some of your posts so thank you! It makes complete sense that the rosé doesn’t have the necessary YAN, and I don’t have the means to test it, especially for such small runs. I just follow the nutrient protocol. Same with the other ferments to be honest.

As I understand it, the first 1/3 of fermentation time is the most critical and where yeast use the most nitrogen for growth. The best things to use are GoFerm (or similar) for micronutrients when hydrating, and balanced nutrients (O and K) which are like eating your vegetables. After that initial time it’s seemingly moot, and the only reason to use something like DAP is to finish it out if you have to because it’s like feeding candy to kids.

I’ll have to find the references and post them... the wine gods were definitely watching over me.

Steuben grapes taste like cotton candy off the vine. Amazing. They now taste a bit spicy. I wish I had done an EM with them, but they cold soaked and I read somewhere that too much time on the skins makes them a bit like concords. So… they’re settling out now and will go into hibernation with some oak for company fairly soon. They’re a bit tannic at the moment and a little sharp. I’ll see about a cold crash after a short time. They may make a really good port. That’s my next move with last year’s Frontenac...


----------



## SLM (Oct 15, 2022)

250 lbs each merlot and syrah from Lonesome Spring Ranch WA. Pulled about 5 gals for saignee, first time trying this method.
This is my second year using grapes. Last year was all CS from same region, different farm. I'm not pleased with the product yet but can't point to any user error so don't know how to improve this year. Not that there's any major flaws or stink, just not a very good wine. But the excitement of the crush holds promise of better things to come.


----------



## BarrelMonkey (Oct 15, 2022)

I'm loving the pictures of grapes and gear in this thread, it's particularly interesting to see so many grapes that are so different from what I'm used to ( = mostly Pinot Noir).

And @David Violante it looks like we have very similar equipment - hand crank destemmer with stainless hopper, #30 (?) stainless basket press and one of those little transfer pumps.


----------



## David Violante (Oct 16, 2022)

BarrelMonkey said:


> I'm loving the pictures of grapes and gear in this thread, it's particularly interesting to see so many grapes that are so different from what I'm used to ( = mostly Pinot Noir).
> 
> And @David Violante it looks like we have very similar equipment - hand crank destemmer with stainless hopper, #30 (?) stainless basket press and one of those little transfer pumps.


Yes indeed! I’ve been gathering things little by little, here and there, to make the process easier and better. Everything but the pump has been second or third hand. I do love a good DIY and have made a press previously, which worked really well but it was fairly big and cumbersome to move around. I even looked into making a crusher destemmer, a move up from a manual crusher I have, which was a move up from a milk-crate in a bin. Those things are just fabulous.

I anticipate the efficiency and ease is going to make me want to make more…


----------



## cmason1957 (Oct 16, 2022)

Not crush, but today was press day for our Chambourcin grapes. I've never had such a sloppy mess in 10 years of wine making. I did add pectin enzyme to the must prior to fermentation. I'm pretty sure I have always done that. Maybe it was that the grapes were on the vine an extra week from when they were ready to pick, due to being out of town.


----------



## winemaker81 (Oct 16, 2022)

cmason1957 said:


> Not crush, but today was press day for our Chambourcin grapes. I've never had such a sloppy mess in 10 years of wine making. I did add pectin enzyme to the must prior to fermentation. I'm pretty sure I have always done that. Maybe it was that the grapes were on the vine an extra week from when they were ready to pick, due to being out of town.


My son & I finished pressing our large batches and I'm chilling. You REALLY made my day!

Those are now your official wine making clothes!!!


----------



## VinesnBines (Oct 16, 2022)

Ha! I had squirts when pressing my Chambourcin today. I did not add peptic enzymes and the grapes didn’t hang too long. I had to wrap plastic around the press at the end of the press. It must be the nature of the grapes this year.


----------



## hawkwing (Oct 16, 2022)

I had squirts too and I added Lallzyme EX-V. I did use a mesh bag in the press. I’m planning to cut the bottom off a pail to place over for next time.

My filter sprayed me today. I was filtering a kit port I made. I tilted the bucket to try and get the last bit and there must’ve been a chunk in there that got sucked in and plugged it a bit. It was at the end so no big deal.


----------



## David Violante (Oct 16, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Ha! I had squirts when pressing my Chambourcin today. I did not add peptic enzymes and the grapes didn’t hang too long. I had to wrap plastic around the press at the end of the press. It must be the nature of the grapes this year.


I have a fermenter bucket with a crack in the bottom, I think I’m going to just cut out the bottom and use the bucket around my press. Thank you @crushday for the idea from your pictures!


----------



## crushday (Oct 16, 2022)

David Violante said:


> I have a fermenter bucket with a crack in the bottom, I think I’m going to just cut out the bottom and use the bucket around my press. Thank you @crushday for the idea from your pictures!


I celebrate your idea. I was loosing a lot of wine from the "squirt factor" and I did not want to use the internal mesh bag provided with my press. My hesitancy was around the storage, use (sanitation) and cleanup of the bag. Too much hassle...

Often, wine was squirting several feet in all directions! The fitted 55 gallon drum is perfect for my use!


----------



## Cap Puncher (Oct 18, 2022)

Had a nice day crushing with the WVA last Monday! 400 lb of Lodi Old Vine Zin split into 3 fermentors.
-2 day cold soak. 3.5 gallons off for a rose
-Fermentor 1: Prelude+Avante +VP41 (coferment)
-Fermentor 2: Prelude+BM4X4 +VP41 (coferment)
--Fermentor 3: Native yeast ferment yeast and ML. (No additives at all- will become sacramental wine if it is good)

The ferment was so vigorous it held up my punch down tool with complete ease.

My future winemakers made a guest appearance for a punch down!


----------



## Donz (Oct 18, 2022)

I find that Avante and Zin is a match made in heaven!


----------



## Cynewulf (Oct 18, 2022)

Cap Puncher said:


> Had a nice day crushing with the WVA last Monday! 400 lb of Lodi Old Vine Zin split into 3 fermentors.
> -2 day cold soak. 3.5 gallons off for a rose
> -Fermentor 1: Prelude+Avante +VP41 (coferment)
> -Fermentor 2: Prelude+BM4X4 +VP41 (coferment)
> ...


Do you know what the starting pH was?


----------



## hawkwing (Oct 18, 2022)

Donz said:


> I find that Avante and Zin is a match made in heaven!


I hope so!


----------



## Cap Puncher (Oct 18, 2022)

Cynewulf said:


> Do you know what the starting pH was?


I got pH=3.84. TA=4.7. I corrected one fermentor to pH3.47 the other to 3.6 (I’m blending them anyway). Brix was25-26. There were some raisins that leeched out more sugar after it started fermenting. 

In the native fermentation, I picked 5lb(after destemmed) of wild grapes from our church. They were pretty acidic. After adding those to 8gal of must, the pH was 3.57 Brix 25. I was happy with that balance since I couldn’t add anything (accept other grapes). It added some of the yeast and other goodies from the vines at the church too (hopefully not bad).


----------



## David Violante (Oct 19, 2022)

Ajmassa said:


> But the later stage DAP is actually what compelled me to post. I’ve been under the impression that it’s the direct _opposite_ of what you said. That once the abv reaches a certain point the DAP no longer helps the yeast but actually will feed the nasties instead b/c …. science. (*fact checkers-lookin your way!)
> 
> And thought Ferm-O is recommended if later stage nutrients are needed specifically b/c it lacks DAP. Now I may be completely wrong here and I can’t cite sources, but i committed it to memory so it must have come from somewhere lol.



AJ, I finally had a moment to look back through some postings on YAN and Staggered Nutrient Additions (SNA). @Raptor99 has a good posting *here*. The paper on Advanced Nutrients in Mead-Making is very helpful in understanding the additions and why. I found it a helpful read, again ... although designed for mead, I think it applies well to winemaking. Bryan (@winemaker81) recently had an issue with RC212 and had to add additional nutrients to overcome their needs beyond what is generally accepted. Same issue I had with the saignee / rose.

There are a lot of other posts about YAN and SNA, Deezil has some really good information as well. 

Basically, and I'm typing this for my benefit as well, from @Raptor99 's post, the SNA protocol looks like this:

Rehydrate with GoFerm
At 24 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-O
At 48 hours add the rest of the Ferm-O
At 72 hours add 1/2 of the Ferm-K and 1/2 of the DAP
At the 1/3 sugar break add the rest of the Ferm-K and DAP
This is where I then came into a conundrum as to what to do.... if there's a potential / persistent need for nutrients based on a sluggish fermentation and/or H2S smell (having tried to account for all other reasons), what nutrients do you add and how much. As the protocol starts with F/O and ends with DAP, I used a small amount of DAP. 

When I looked back through the postings here I found some variety of how additions were made and even when. In 2010, Deezil began with GoFerm, then half the Fermaid K addition after the lag phase, then the other half at 1/3 break, then all the Fermaid O at the 1/2 - 2/3 break. Postings in the thread *here*. 

Around the same time, Seth discusses going up to the limits of Fermaid K, and then using as much Fermaid O as is needed, as it does not contain thiamine, and therefore you won't reach the legal limit of it in your wine. Posting of that thread *here*. 

In 2013, Deezil has *this amazing post* on YAN, GoFerm, Fermaid K & O, and DAP with some recommendations based on Brix, and addition schedules to round the fermentation spikes into hills. Organics to start (O&K), DAP in the middle, and if low YAN grapes/must, you _could _use DAP to finish although Fermaid O would be better since yeast will use-up all organic sources to the end, but only use inorganics up to 2/3 break or so. If moving from organic (Fermaids) to inorganic (DAP) the yeast can switch easily, yet moving in the opposite direction is more difficult and can create a lag. 

Winemaker Magazine posted *this article *from Bob Peak about YAN and completely advocates DAP. I can't find a date but I'm guessing it's old. They also have *this article* from Dave Green saying that DAP should not be used as a substitute for the organic form of nitrogen. 

Back to 2013, I get to lean on the wisdom of @jswordy for having *these same conversations* with Deezil and Seth now almost 10 years ago:
_"Fermaid O is the ideal nutrient to use whenever you can use it. This means pretty much most things that have a somewhat decent nitrogen content. It will result in an overall really balanced steady fermentation. Fermaid O uses amino based nitrogen which the yeast can still utilize even when the yeast reaches the point that cant use DAP. Also, avoid using nutrients after the 1/2 mark unless the wine makes signs of being distressed. Then it would be fine to use something like fermaid O to help it out. But you do not want to overload it with too much because it might not use it all."_​​_"So take home message, Fermaid O rocks when you can use it. When you can't, try using it in conjunction with Fermaid K or DAP to help make up for really large nitrogen needs. Then switch back to Fermaid O. Also, Fermaid O works better than DAP in the late phases of fermentation since it is a amino acid based nitrogen source."_​
Sooooo.... very long story short, as you said, I should have used Fermaid O towards the end instead of DAP.


----------



## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 19, 2022)

David Violante said:


> AJ, I finally had a moment to look back through some postings on YAN and Staggered Nutrient Additions (SNA). @Raptor99 has a good posting *here*. The paper on Advanced Nutrients in Mead-Making is very helpful in understanding the additions and why. I found it a helpful read, again ... although designed for mead, I think it applies well to winemaking. Bryan (@winemaker81) recently had an issue with RC212 and had to add additional nutrients to overcome their needs beyond what is generally accepted. Same issue I had with the saignee / rose.
> 
> There are a lot of other posts about YAN and SNA, Deezil has some really good information as well.
> 
> ...


Dap is fine, I think that advice from back then is dated, I am a professional winemaker and I have had to add dap as well as either fermaid k or nutristart which is lafforts equivalent after the halfway mark with no issue, sometimes you get hydrogen sulfide towards the end of fermentations and they get stuck. Which is what happened to my Syrah this year. 

As long as you don’t put it in right as fermentation stops you are fine.


----------



## David Violante (Oct 19, 2022)

Thank you, it's good to hear the experiences of others where the paper meets the road, as it were. I didn't have any issues (so far, knock on wood) with the rose after the addition of DAP. There was a little lag, and then it took off again and finished pretty well.


----------



## Ajmassa (Oct 19, 2022)

David Violante said:


> AJ, I finally had a moment to look back through some postings on YAN and Staggered Nutrient Additions (SNA). @Raptor99 has a good posting *here*. The paper on Advanced Nutrients in Mead-Making is very helpful in understanding the additions and why. I found it a helpful read, again ... although designed for mead, I think it applies well to winemaking. Bryan (@winemaker81) recently had an issue with RC212 and had to add additional nutrients to overcome their needs beyond what is generally accepted. Same issue I had with the saignee / rose.
> 
> There are a lot of other posts about YAN and SNA, Deezil has some really good information as well.
> 
> ...


Well that is one helluva thorough post Dave! Overloaded with info. Even tho you conceded at the end of your post about late stage O it doesn’t seem as black & white now tho does it? At least not to me. Some conflicting info in there.

And actually this was referenced in passing the other day. Tho we didn’t discuss it further than that it did seem @ceeaton was under the same impression as I was. All I can say is that I had committed this to memory based on, well based on constantly talking shop on here pretty much.

But I will absolutely not die on this hill! My heels are not dug in and always open to understanding more.
But With all that said, I’m not gonna change anything just yet. And I think a lot of home winemaking for many of us is just finding a comfort zome and sticking with it. unless obviously we learn something we’ve been doing is actually incorrect.

@Nebbiolo020 ’s insight is also helpful. That technically it’s probably correct. But to negatively affect your yeast it’s probably gotta be closer to the extreme side of “late”. 

All of this is helpful. And I appreciate you taking the time to out all the info together like you did. In the meantime I’ll continue stay the course of:

DAP & K after inoculation or first punch 
K at 1/3 to 1/2
O in the event more is needed after this.

(Just a reminder- testing YAN eliminates all this guesswork!)


----------



## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 20, 2022)

Ajmassa said:


> Well that is one helluva thorough post Dave! Overloaded with info. Even tho you conceded at the end of your post about late stage O it doesn’t seem as black & white now tho does it? At least not to me. Some conflicting info in there.
> 
> And actually this was referenced in passing the other day. Tho we didn’t discuss it further than that it did seem @ceeaton was under the same impression as I was. All I can say is that I had committed this to memory based on, well based on constantly talking shop on here pretty much.
> 
> ...


My rule of thumb is if fermentation is still going and you get any hint of hydrogen sulfide then throw in another dose or half dose of nutrients right away and make sure it gets mixed in good. Then monitor the wine and see if it improves because nutrients are the best way to correct the problem early on, you can get all kinds of problems from insufficient nutrients including stuck fermentation, poor yeast growth, off flavors and aromas. What my advice is, no matter what always add nutrients to every batch of wine it’s a cheap insurance policy against flaws that can end up costing you your entire batch if not taken care of. 

Happy to drop by and answer any questions what I’m doing at commercial wineries is just the same stuff on a much larger scale and a lot of home winemakers can take the practices scale them down and improve the wines they make dramatically.


----------



## Cap Puncher (Oct 23, 2022)

Finally pressed out the old vine zin yesterday with my little helpers! I got to use my re-furbished #45 press (that took me way too long to finish). No big squirts like the other( I was using a mesh bag)


----------



## hawkwing (Oct 23, 2022)

I was using a mesh bag and mine still squirted.


----------



## Donz (Oct 24, 2022)

I think all of the squirting problems arise when enzymes are added preferment. I never understood the need for this and feel it's useless.


----------



## hawkwing (Oct 24, 2022)

I don’t know it was recommended and this was my first time making from whole grapes. So I have no idea what it’s like without enzymes. Maybe next year I’ll try one batch without to see the difference.


----------



## CDrew (Oct 24, 2022)

Donz said:


> I think all of the squirting problems arise when enzymes are added preferment. I never understood the need for this and feel it's useless.



I have to disagree. Enzymes make a huge difference in color and body. So, not useless!

I've had squirts either way. It's normal. My bladder press even came with a cover to contain the squirts and direct it down into the collection gutter. A quick wrap with plastic wrap also accomplishes the same goal.


----------



## hawkwing (Oct 24, 2022)

I wish I thought of the plastic wrap idea before I had to wash my walls, stove, cupboards etc. and wipe the floor multiple times. Oh well next time.


----------



## winemaker81 (Oct 24, 2022)

Donz said:


> I think all of the squirting problems arise when enzymes are added preferment. I never understood the need for this and feel it's useless.


Which enzymes? There are dozens -- many are maceration enzymes, but some are post-fermentation enzymes which are specifically NOT for pre-fermentation and fermentation usage (designed for clarification and turn grape solids to mush).

Like @CDrew, I've gotten amazing color using enzymes. The wines I've made since using a maceration enzyme (Scottzyme ColorPro) have also had better aroma, body, and flavor. It's more difficult to judge as grapes vary by year, but it appears my yields are up (leaving less wine in the pomace).


----------



## Donz (Oct 24, 2022)

We have used Lallzyme EX in the past. Over the years, we have been trying to reduce the chemicals and additives in our wine as much as possible and the results are still excellent.


----------



## Ajmassa (Oct 26, 2022)

Cap Puncher said:


> Finally pressed out the old vine zin yesterday with my little helpers! I got to use my re-furbished #45 press (that took me way too long to finish). No big squirts like the other( I was using a mesh bag)


Absolutely awesome pics man!!! whether the wines amazing or the wine sucks doesn’t even really matter. Those memories of “helping dad squish the grapes” will last a helluva lot longer. And at the end of the day that’s really what it’s all about anyway.


----------



## SLM (Nov 7, 2022)

Finally pressed Syrah and Merlot. 21 days on skins, 18 day ferment, SG 1.008. 20 gal syrah, 17 gal merlot, 3 gal each saignee rose, also 10 gal blackberry.
But here's a question. Of 6 carboys of reds, only the free run is pushing airlocks, 3 days after press. Is pressed juice slower to continue ferment or what?











Squirt protector


----------



## winemaker81 (Nov 7, 2022)

SLM said:


> But here's a question. Of 6 carboys of reds, only the free run is pushing airlocks, 3 days after press. Is pressed juice slower to continue ferment or what?


AFAIK, there should be no difference. If anything, I'd expect the hard pressings to have more yeast so they'd go faster.

Yet another reminder that Mother Nature and Dionysus are in charge ...


----------



## CDrew (Nov 7, 2022)

SLM said:


> Finally pressed Syrah and Merlot. 21 days on skins, 18 day ferment, SG 1.008. 20 gal syrah, 17 gal merlot, 3 gal each saignee rose, also 10 gal blackberry.
> But here's a question. Of 6 carboys of reds, only the free run is pushing airlocks, 3 days after press. Is pressed juice slower to continue ferment or what?



I would not read anything into it. Looks like you had some fun. I would check your stoppers carefully, as I have had a tough time getting those "universal" bungs to seat and seal properly. I dislike them so much, I threw all of mine out.

But with that said, you do need to get your fermentation finished-any thought about warming it up a bit?


----------



## SLM (Nov 10, 2022)

CDrew said:


> I would not read anything into it. Looks like you had some fun. I would check your stoppers carefully, as I have had a tough time getting those "universal" bungs to seat and seal properly. I dislike them so much, I threw all of mine out.
> 
> But with that said, you do need to get your fermentation finished-any thought about warming it up a bit?


Good idea! It has been rather cool.
I rotated airlocks with same results, only the free run is making bubbles. However, SG progress is consistent in all carboys regardless of appearance.


----------

