# Rank newb - planning my first wine from grapes



## milbrosa (Dec 28, 2011)

I've completed about a dozen wine kits, and I'm very confident in my ability to make an excellent wine from a kit. Now I want to try making a wine from grapes. I want to start planning now for the fall harvest. My initial goal is to produce 12 gallons of finished red wine. I don't care what grape variety, so long as it's from a good crop. I'll be happy to produce any style of wine appropriate to the grapes I buy. 

I have the following equipment:

2 ten gallon Brute trash can fermenters that I've fermented all my wine kits in
2 twenty gallon Brute trash cans currently used for storing malted barley that I could press into fermentation service
11 carboys ranging from 5 to 6.5 gallons
hydrometers
refractometer (not ATC)
ph meter (Milwaukee MW102)
wine thief, funnels, airlocks and other sundry fermenting gear
smelly oily Harbor Freight vacuum pump for degassing
Buon Vino Superjet
bottling gear (Vinator, floor corker)

Things I don't have but I know will be needed:

grape destemmer / crusher (hope I can rent)
wine press (hope I can rent)
a supply of grapes

Things I don't have but fear will be needed (and I hope I'm wrong):

Titration equipment for free SO2 monitoring

What have I missed in terms of required equipment?

What do I need to know?

How much grape should I purchase to wind up with 12 gallons finished wine? 



I hope you guys won't mind tutoring a newb. I have been an all-grain beer brewer for six years, and I've made wine from kits for the past three years. I'm mindful of sanitation and I'm not completely in the dark about wine, but I would like to learn and plan as much as possible in advance for my first wine from grapes. 

Thank you!


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## rob (Dec 28, 2011)

I have done this for the past two years and never found a need for any titration eq. The amount of grapes you need so much depends on what they are. I do a Brianna which yields about 5 gallons per 150 pounds. The way you press also depends on the amount, if you press to hard you will damage the seeds and have a more bitter wine, if you press to little you will not have the yield you want.
It really isn't much different than kits, you will need to pay more attn. to your acid-ph levels and the SG. try to reach a 12% even if sugar has to be added. The most important part of all this is patience, leave in the carboy for at least 6 months, that way you can make adjustments as needed.


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## milbrosa (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks Rob. You give me confidence. What do you mean by "try to reach 12%"? Is that a measure of sugar concentration? How do I measure it? What will that look like on the brix scale in my refractometer?

Wow. 5 gallons of wine from 150 pounds of grapes? So I'd need 360 pounds!!! of grapes for 12 gallons of finished wine? How big of a fermenter is needed for that?


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## rob (Dec 28, 2011)

milbrosa said:


> Thanks Rob. You give me confidence. What do you mean by "try to reach 12%"? Is that a measure of sugar concentration? How do I measure it? What will that look like on the brix scale in my refractometer?
> 
> Wow. 5 gallons of wine from 150 pounds of grapes? So I'd need 360 pounds!!! of grapes for 12 gallons of finished wine? How big of a fermenter is needed for that?



you will need a brix of 22 or hydrometer of 1.090 I use a Brute grey trash can to ferment in...it will have a food grade stamp on the bottom, just cover with a towel.


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## rob (Dec 28, 2011)

I think you can get more out of a crush than I do, I have struggled with this


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## milbrosa (Dec 28, 2011)

What kind of press do you use to press the grapes?



BTW, I have a cousin from Austin Texas who was helping some folks at a new winery down there get started back in the '80s. They pressed the grapes with their feet. Seems kinda gross. I saw Lucille Ball do that in an I Love Lucy show a long time ago. It didn't look too bad in black and white.


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## rob (Dec 28, 2011)

milbrosa said:


> What kind of press do you use to press the grapes?
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I have a cousin from Austin Texas who was helping some folks at a new winery down there get started back in the '80s. They pressed the grapes with their feet. Seems kinda gross. I saw Lucille Ball do that in an I Love Lucy show a long time ago. It didn't look too bad in black and white.



I made my own press, I have pictures somewhere on here. What type of grapes are you thinking of doing, whites produce more juice than reds. where will you get your grapes?


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## milbrosa (Dec 29, 2011)

Ah, making a press would be really cool. I'd love to do that, but I know I'd get stalled somewhere along the way and never complete. I commend you for doing it.

As to the questions, I don't know, and I don't know. I am more fond of red wine, so that is what I want to make. What grapes and where I'll get them are up in the air, and I lack the knowledge to select them anyway. I need to call my LHBS to see if they are going to arrange for a group buy. If so, I'll buy what they are bringing in. Else I'll have to explore other options. I've heard tell that there are a lot of wineries in Texas (I haven't visited any), but I don't think there is much in the way of surplus high quality wine grapes for sale here.


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## Rocky (Dec 29, 2011)

Milbrosa, I take it from your comments that you live somewhere in Texas. Have you seen the thread below? Mike (ibglowin) traveled to Carrolton (The Wine Makers Toy Store) and got fresh California grapes there, including the crushing/destemming operation. Seems like a great way to go for you if you are near enough. If you made red, all you would need is a press. If you make white, you don't even need that.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16158&highlight=ibglowin


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## PCharles (Dec 29, 2011)

This is my first year at wine making. I started off with 4 kits. I added several fruit wines such as strawberry and blueberry. I was excited that I was able to nail down 12 gallons of cab sauv. I'm not sure how much this weighed. I was helping a local vineyard/winery. The grapes came right out of the vineyard, through the crusher/destemmer, and into my fermenter. One thing you'll find out is that the skins really swell up. What started as 12 gallons became a good 16 gallons of material. The cap on top was quite thick. *Make sure you have a punch down tool*. You'll need to punch down about three times per day. What started as 12 gallons, which expanded to about 16 gallons, has turned out about 9 gallons of wine. I still have a small bit of lees in the bottom of my carboy after 3 months, but will have that racked off soon. 

By the way, I worried a good deal about a press. I have yet to purchase one. I was surprised to find that I got by fine without one. I used a colander along with a wine bottle. Keep in mind that most of the wine will be sucked from below the cap until all that is left in your fermenter is the cap. That leaves only the cap to be pressed. Once I scooped the skins/cap into my colander, most of the wine flowed freely out of the skins. With only gentle pressing with the blunt end of a wine bottle, I was able to get most of the wine out of the skins. I could have worked it longer, but the lost wine was likely very small. It took me less than an hour to press the skins. 

IMO, the most important tool would be the crusher/destemmer. I can't say for sure that I will continue to be able to get crushed destemmed grapes from my local vineyard/winery. I may also want to get some West Coast grapes that I would need to handle on my own. 

Remember malolactic fermentation. You may want to consider testing kits for measuring MLF completion. That's a big issue after fermentation. Your right to consider equipment for sulfite testing. This year I decided to just add K-meta based on pH. I believe I added 1 tsp to the 9 gallons of wine. I'll add 1/4tsp each time I rack. My pH was 3.6. 

This coming harvest season I hope to increase the volume of grapes that I ferment. This year I just had the cab sauv with nothing to blend with it. Next year I'd like to have more cab sauv, some Merlot, and some Petit Verdot or Cab Franc. If I get local wines, I may very well be able to stagger the earlier harvested Merlot and Cab Franc, finishing several weeks later with the Cab sauv. You might be surprised to know that the wine took 10 days or less to ferment. 

I hope this rambling helps in some small way. 

Best of luck and Happy New Year!

Paul


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## milbrosa (Dec 29, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Milbrosa, I take it from your comments that you live somewhere in Texas. Have you seen the thread below? Mike (ibglowin) traveled to Carrolton (The Wine Makers Toy Store) and got fresh California grapes there, including the crushing/destemming operation. Seems like a great way to go for you if you are near enough. If you made red, all you would need is a press. If you make white, you don't even need that.
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16158&highlight=ibglowin



Rocky, thanks for that thread. Yes, Fine VIne Wines is my regular LHBS, a five mile drive for me, not a road trip. I talked to George back in the summer and he said there'd be a sign up list. I wasn't ready to tackle it for this year, so I didn't order any grapes. I'm planning for next harvest.


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## JohnT (Dec 29, 2011)

You NEED to test the PH of the grape juice. 

With kits, the PH is already factored and it is not so important to test, but with grapes this is a whole different story. 

A lot of factors in processing grapes can change the PH. Things like ripeness and rainfall will require you to monitor and adjust acid. I can not stress how important this is. 

I would get a simple acid titration kit. this costs about $7. A PH Meter (costs around $80) would be better, but a kit should do ya just fine for now.

johnT.


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## ibglowin (Dec 29, 2011)

Welcome to WMT milbrosa!

Sounds like your starting at just the right time to get ready for next Fall's crush! How lucky you are that your only 5 miles away from Mecca! You can have your grapes crushed and de-stemmed at the Toy Store then take then home in your brutes and ferment then a week or so later, bring em back to the Toy Store and use their Press to press off. This is about as easy as it gets unless you buy your own equipment which is $$$.

In the mean time here is a link to a great primer called Guide to Making Red Wine from Morewine. I always buy first from the Toy Store but sometimes George doesn't have a few things and these guys have a nice selection of supplies especially for making wine from fresh grapes.

One other thing you may wish to pick up is Daniel Pambianchi's book Techniques in Home Winemaking Very in depth on EVERY aspect of winemaking. It is my go to reference book.

You will need about 200lbs for 12 gallons. You will want to use the 20G Brutes to ferment in. The 10G will be too small. I did almost 800lbs this Fall that were purchased through the Toy Store and they are turning out fantastic. This was one of the worst harvest on record in CA as well so we know the fruit and the vineyard manager are some of the best out there.

Cheers!


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## milbrosa (Dec 29, 2011)

PCharles said:


> This is my first year at wine making. I started off with 4 kits. I added several fruit wines such as strawberry and blueberry. I was excited that I was able to nail down 12 gallons of cab sauv. I'm not sure how much this weighed. I was helping a local vineyard/winery. The grapes came right out of the vineyard, through the crusher/destemmer, and into my fermenter. One thing you'll find out is that the skins really swell up. What started as 12 gallons became a good 16 gallons of material. The cap on top was quite thick. *Make sure you have a punch down tool*. You'll need to punch down about three times per day. What started as 12 gallons, which expanded to about 16 gallons, has turned out about 9 gallons of wine. I still have a small bit of lees in the bottom of my carboy after 3 months, but will have that racked off soon.
> 
> By the way, I worried a good deal about a press. I have yet to purchase one. I was surprised to find that I got by fine without one. I used a colander along with a wine bottle. Keep in mind that most of the wine will be sucked from below the cap until all that is left in your fermenter is the cap. That leaves only the cap to be pressed. Once I scooped the skins/cap into my colander, most of the wine flowed freely out of the skins. With only gentle pressing with the blunt end of a wine bottle, I was able to get most of the wine out of the skins. I could have worked it longer, but the lost wine was likely very small. It took me less than an hour to press the skins.
> 
> ...



Paul, that helps a lot indeed. It's precisely the kind of information I'm looking for. Punch down tool added to equipment list. I can probably make one. Wine press alternatives I'll look into. Crusher/Destemmer seems like is taken care of if I order from FVW. 

Malolactic fermentation. That is something I definitely need to understand. It's not an issue for kits so I haven't dealt with it. My understanding is that it is desirable, perhaps essential, but must be complete before bottling. True? 

Is it a typical practice to blend the wines from several types of grapes? The major vineyards don't do that, do they? How could they label something Cabernet Sauvignon if it contained Merlot grapes, for instance? As a home winemaker I know I can do what I like, of course, and I'd like to do whatever is likely to yield me a good wine.


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## milbrosa (Dec 29, 2011)

JohnT said:


> You NEED to test the PH of the grape juice.
> 
> With kits, the PH is already factored and it is not so important to test, but with grapes this is a whole different story.
> 
> ...



John, thanks. I do have a ph meter (Milwaukee MW102). I just bought it for testing my mash ph (beer). What I'll need to learn about for wine is the process of testing ph, what to look for, and how to adjust.


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## milbrosa (Dec 29, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Welcome to WMT milbrosa!
> 
> Sounds like your starting at just the right time to get ready for next Fall's crush! How lucky you are that your only 5 miles away from Mecca! You can have your grapes crushed and de-stemmed at the Toy Store then take then home in your brutes and ferment then a week or so later, bring em back to the Toy Store and use their Press to press off. This is about as easy as it gets unless you buy your own equipment which is $$$.
> 
> ...



Mike, thank you for the welcome and the information. 200 lbs for 12 gallons. I'm amazed, but it's really good to know. (Just imagine how many tons of grapes are grown yearly to satisfy the production demands of commercial wineries!) Twelve gallons is what I'll be aiming at for next fall. I think it's a big enough batch size for the effort and for learning the process, but without risking too much if it doesn't turn out great. 

Thanks for those links. I will get Pambianchi's book now so I can absorb it all over the next month. 

Edit: That PDF from morewine looks great! I'm printing that off.


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## ibglowin (Dec 29, 2011)

200lbs or 12 gallons of finished wine is exactly what I started with 2 crushes ago. 

I am just about ready to bottle that first crush now. BTW you will need 2 Brutes (20G) and 100lbs will go into each (crushed, de-stemmed)

You may wish to think about getting 100lbs of Cab Sauv and 100lbs Merlot, then you can bottle some individually and blend some.


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## PCharles (Dec 29, 2011)

milbrosa said:


> Paul, that helps a lot indeed. It's precisely the kind of information I'm looking for. Punch down tool added to equipment list. I can probably make one. Wine press alternatives I'll look into. Crusher/Destemmer seems like is taken care of if I order from FVW.
> 
> Malolactic fermentation. That is something I definitely need to understand. It's not an issue for kits so I haven't dealt with it. My understanding is that it is desirable, perhaps essential, but must be complete before bottling. True?
> 
> Is it a typical practice to blend the wines from several types of grapes? The major vineyards don't do that, do they? How could they label something Cabernet Sauvignon if it contained Merlot grapes, for instance? As a home winemaker I know I can do what I like, of course, and I'd like to do whatever is likely to yield me a good wine.



Yes Milbrosa, 
It is common to see different wine types to be blended. I would blend the finished wine, not the grapes or must. This would be done with bench trials tasted by others to assist in choosing the best blend. This past year my wife and I were visiting a winery in Elkin, NC. The owner of the winery had a professional wine maker. The owner showed me various jars that contained specific blends the wine maker had prepared for him and his wife to taste. They were trying to recreate signature wines that the winery carried from year to year. Wines made from grapes such as Cab Franc and Petit Verdot are often used primarily for blending, albeit some vineyards bottle them as a stand-alone. 

I'm no expert, but it is my goal to have wine varieties to blend or just enjoy as a stand-alone.


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## milbrosa (Dec 29, 2011)

I need to plan on fermentation space. Next fall, I may be able to do it in my garage, perhaps with some supplemental heat. In November in this area, it's equally likely that my garage could be too hot. I ferment my beers in a storage room that I keep at 65 degrees. I think that is too cold for wine. What is the optimal temperature range that I should plan on for fermenting wine?

In the Guide to Making Red Wine from Morewine, it says most winemakers agree that 70 to 85 is acceptable. It also says many winemakers start with temps as low as 60 and allow the temp to come up slowly. Another thing I see is that the heat of fermentation can cause the temperature to rise 10 to 15 degrees over ambient. So maybe fermenting in my 65 degree storage room would actually be acceptable?


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## ibglowin (Dec 29, 2011)

This year was the worst harvest ever in CA. Late by almost 4 weeks...... Rain......

You name it it happened.

In a "normal" year you will be just fine fermenting in Tejas in October. Perfect conditions IMHO.

I pulled it off, in November, in my living room! Not my normal place to ferment for sure but it was warmer than outside by a long shot.

The heat of fermentation can cause 15 degree warmup easily in a primary. At the worst you need a space heater to warm up the area where the primary's are.

65 degrees would be just fine for fermentation liftoff.


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## milbrosa (Dec 30, 2011)

Good news then. I shouldn't have much trouble with primary fermentation. I presume the temperature will subside as primary fermentation ends. Then after pressing and first racking, MLF takes place. Is 65 degrees OK for MLF?


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## PCharles (Dec 30, 2011)

milbrosa said:


> Good news then. I shouldn't have much trouble with primary fermentation. I presume the temperature will subside as primary fermentation ends. Then after pressing and first racking, MLF takes place. Is 65 degrees OK for MLF?



I used the White Labs MLF product. Here is a link to their instruction sheet. Temperature tolerance limits are detailed and you should be fine. I'm sure other MLF products would have similar tolerances.

http://www.whitelabs.com/wine/malolactic.html

Check out the MoreWine procedure for MLF.
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/mlf09.pdf


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## Mikael (Jan 1, 2012)

I really haven't read much of the replies, but I noticed on your wish list you wrote down crusher/de-stemmer. you will save a HELL of a lot of money if you just buy the crusher you DO NOT NEED A DE-STEMMER!!! You will get people *and i know I will get people on me for saying this* but a LOT of people say you don't want stems in the fermenting juice...that's mallarky and I can vouch for that because we use a normal crusher and everything goes in even the stems and our wine came out PERFECTLY FINE!!!! You will be saving 500 dollars if you buy a regular electronic crusher because crusher/de-stemmers from what I have seen run about 1,200 and up. If there is a lower price than that it would be maaayyybe 900 perhaps? But they are still up there. It's a waste of money in my opinion. The stems don't give any off flavorings or tannins or anything. 





Cheers!!!!!!


Mikael


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## milbrosa (Jan 2, 2012)

Thank you for that insight, MIkael. What you are saying seems reasonable to me, but I've never researched it. I didn't even know that it was a point of contention. Actually, I did not know that one could buy just a crusher without a destemmer. I hadn't really researched it. I have always heard the two used together, so I assumed that all crushers also destemmed. 

Fashioning a homemade crusher without a destemmer should be relatively easy.

For now, I plan to buy grapes from Fine VIne Wines. I live just a few miles away. They make it easy for me since I can use their crusher/destemmer when I pick up the grapes.


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## ibglowin (Jan 3, 2012)

You have it made for sure living so close, no need to purchase since you can rent for almost next to nothing. To get a hold of the same quality equipment I would have to drive 200 miles round trip twice, once to crush/de-stem, once to press. For that reason plus I am growing grapes now as well I chose to go with the ease of owning.

BTW the Winemaker's Toy Store has the manual crusher de-stemmer for a very reasonable price right now especially if you have the growers discount. George is expanding into more professional winemaking equipment this year so it should be fun to see all the new toys we (dream of needing) and owning some day.


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## JohnT (Jan 3, 2012)

Mikael said:


> I really haven't read much of the replies, but I noticed on your wish list you wrote down crusher/de-stemmer. you will save a HELL of a lot of money if you just buy the crusher you DO NOT NEED A DE-STEMMER!!! You will get people *and i know I will get people on me for saying this* but a LOT of people say you don't want stems in the fermenting juice...that's mallarky and I can vouch for that because we use a normal crusher and everything goes in even the stems and our wine came out PERFECTLY FINE!!!! You will be saving 500 dollars if you buy a regular electronic crusher because crusher/de-stemmers from what I have seen run about 1,200 and up. If there is a lower price than that it would be maaayyybe 900 perhaps? But they are still up there. It's a waste of money in my opinion. The stems don't give any off flavorings or tannins or anything.
> 
> Cheers!!!!!!
> 
> ...




A couple of thoughts.. 

I have spoken to many that would agree with you, but need to speak of my own experiences.

For white wine, I agree that you do not need to buy one. For my whites, I toss whole clusters of grapes directly into the press and press under little pressure over sveral hours. This, I have found, reduces the amount of tannins in the white wine, thus making the wine softer. This is mostly due to the fact that the juice is exposed to the stems for only a short time.

For reds, on the other hand, I use a crusher destemmer. I then take the must and ferment on the skins for at least a week. This gives the wine a lot of structure, color, and body without the typical bitterness that stems seem to yield. also, The crusher/destemmer does a perfect job of bursting grapes, allowing for more contact of the juice to the grapes skins while not crushing the grape seeds (which, I find, can also make wine seem bitter). This also aids in color and body. 

If it were me, I would examine my situation. If I were just trying a limited batch from grapes, and do not plan on making much more, then it is hardly worth the $500 expense. If I were planning on using grapes from here on out, then the investment might be worth while. My cursher/destemmer was bought in 1995 and has handled a lot of grapes over the years. It has never needed repair or replacement.


A nice "middle of the road" option is to simply get a crusher (hand crank, without a destemmer). These can be aquired for a fraction of the price. I would then run the crushed grapes through a milk crate to "strain out" the stems. For small batchs, this could prove a much more cost effective way to go.


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## milbrosa (Jan 4, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> You have it made for sure living so close, no need to purchase since you can rent for almost next to nothing. To get a hold of the same quality equipment I would have to drive 200 miles round trip twice, once to crush/de-stem, once to press. For that reason plus I am growing grapes now as well I chose to go with the ease of owning.
> 
> BTW the Winemaker's Toy Store has the manual crusher de-stemmer for a very reasonable price right now especially if you have the growers discount. George is expanding into more professional winemaking equipment this year so it should be fun to see all the new toys we (dream of needing) and owning some day.



Mike, that manual crusher de-stemmer looks like just the ticket for a small operation. Though like you said, I don't need it so long as I live within spitting distance of FVW. 

George has really expanded his operation over the years, and I'm happy to see that. I brew a lot of beer as well, so now I buy all my grains and beer yeast and hops from him too.


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