# Wine from Just plain grapes?



## mennyg19 (Jun 6, 2016)

Hi guys, just joined the forum a couple of days ago. It has always been my dream to make my own wine. I just ordered some grapes, but was told I should wait until the end of the summer (EVERYTHING is seasonal where I live), so I'm preparing all my equipment and stuff before I get started.
Anyway, my dream is to make wine the way they did for thousands of years. With just grapes. I don't want to add sulfites, sugar, yeast or anything else. No additives, just grapes. Is that possible? And if yes, how? I've looked all over the internet and every how to guide has one type or another of additives. I just want to squeeze grapes into wine. Any help?


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## Arne (Jun 6, 2016)

Sure, you need approx. 20lbs of grapes per gallon. Break the skins, squeeze the juice out of them. Throw the skins in if you want them, otherwise just save the juice. Put it in an open container should start fermenting in a few days. If you get a hydrometer, you can measure how much alcohol it should make and use it to tell if the ferment is still going on. It is not an ingredient, just a tool to help measure and let you know what is happening. When it gets towards the end of the ferment, put it in a carboy of some kind to finish out. Let it sit til it clears and enjoy. And welcome to the forum. Arne.


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## DoctorCAD (Jun 6, 2016)

What about spoilage or horrible tastes due to bad yeasts?

Good luck with that...

Remember, "thousands" of years ago, people died at 30 years old.


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## Johnd (Jun 6, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Hi guys, just joined the forum a couple of days ago. It has always been my dream to make my own wine. I just ordered some grapes, but was told I should wait until the end of the summer (EVERYTHING is seasonal where I live), so I'm preparing all my equipment and stuff before I get started.
> Anyway, my dream is to make wine the way they did for thousands of years. With just grapes. I don't want to add sulfites, sugar, yeast or anything else. No additives, just grapes. Is that possible? And if yes, how? I've looked all over the internet and every how to guide has one type or another of additives. I just want to squeeze grapes into wine. Any help?



Yes, it is possible to make wine from just grapes with no additives, it is risky to eliminate the use of sulfites, which protect your wine from spoilage during its creation as well as time in the bottle. It's the one additive I'd never leave out. Many of the procedures we put our grape wines through increase our odds of success and the ultimate quality of the wine. 

As far as the "how?" question, I suggest that before your grapes arrive that you read a few books on winemaking from grapes, understand the activities that occur during wine making, aging and bottling, how they occur and why. The internet is certainly a good resource, but there are numerous books out there that are quite comprehensive and informative. Perhaps even do a few "learning" batches from a wine kit or frozen grape must, there is plenty of proficiency to develop along the way.

If you want to make good wine from grapes, understanding Brix, Ph, and TA, being able to measure them and adjust them as needed are important both for taste and wine stability. Become a student before you attempt to practice.


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## NorCal (Jun 6, 2016)

The good news is, assuming the grapes are wine grapes, you should have the acidity, alcohol potential and tannin which aid in the protection of the wine. SO2 is also an aid to protect the wine from oxygen, but acts to protect from bacteria spoilage. Keeping your equipment and environment super sanitary will be important. On a small batch, I plan on 20 pounds of grapes per finished gallon of wine. 
There is a reasonable chance that you can make something drinkable, but won't age. Using sulfites, engineered yeasts, yeast nutrients increases the odds, gives you a repeatable process and provides confindence the wine will age. Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## mennyg19 (Jun 6, 2016)

3 versus 1 on the vote, so I guess I'll go for it. 
One of the perks of where I live is that seasonal fruits and vegetables are dirt cheap (they literally pay me to take watermelon sometimes). So there isn't so much of a risk factor involved. 
I have to order some equipment from America though. That'll take some time to get here


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## heatherd (Jun 6, 2016)

Welcome to the forum and the hobby!

I use the fewest chemicals possible, but still need yeast and kmeta.


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## cintipam (Jun 6, 2016)

Welcome Menny!

like the others, it will be interesting to follow your attempts. I hope all goes well and you get to enjoy the fruits of your labors. But since you a brand spankin newbee to all this I thought I should mention that watermelon is one of those wines that even experienced wine makers have problems with. It spoils so fast that even with chemicals the results are almost always undrinkable. So, maybe not watermelon with your no chemical plan?

Pam in cinti


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## JohnT (Jun 6, 2016)

A thousand years ago.. 

Doctors believed that bloodletting could cure most ailments, 
most humans did not bathe, 
and sanitary conditions were non-existent. 

People honestly did not know what was happening when grape juice was converted into wine. 

Why not benefit from the thousands of years of winemaking advancement?

No harm in trying, but I think you are opening yourself up to a lot more risk.


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## mennyg19 (Jun 6, 2016)

cintipam said:


> Welcome Menny!
> 
> like the others, it will be interesting to follow your attempts. I hope all goes well and you get to enjoy the fruits of your labors. But since you a brand spankin newbee to all this I thought I should mention that watermelon is one of those wines that even experienced wine makers have problems with. It spoils so fast that even with chemicals the results are almost always undrinkable. So, maybe not watermelon with your no chemical plan?
> 
> Pam in cinti




Oh, im using grapes. I was just mentioning that during the summer round here, watermelon (random example) is basically given away for free...


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## mennyg19 (Jun 6, 2016)

Not arguing with you John. I bet you are right. There are a few reasons why I want to try no additives. First of all is my dream (obviously). Second is health concerns. I am on a very strict diet for gastro issues and most additives give me problems. A little wine here and there doesn't bother me too much, but if I'm making my own, i will probably be getting into the actual drinking part a bit more. Don't want to complicate the issues.
Oh and btw, Abraham lived for more than 100 years


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## sour_grapes (Jun 6, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> One of the perks of where I live is that seasonal fruits and vegetables are dirt cheap (they literally pay me to take watermelon sometimes). So there isn't so much of a risk factor involved.





mennyg19 said:


> Oh, im using grapes. I was just mentioning that during the summer round here, watermelon (random example) is basically given away for free...



May I ask what kind of grapes you expect will be available to you? Table grapes do not make good wine, in case that is what you are targeting.


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## mennyg19 (Jun 6, 2016)

They sell all types of wine grapes here. I live in Israel. Theres a huge wine industry here. I spoke to my local fruit stand owner and he said he'll be able to get me some cab sauv


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## NorCal (Jun 7, 2016)

Cab Sauv is a big grape, providing a lot of tannin and requiring time to have the tannins smooth. Since your wine may not be age worthy, you may want to remove the juice from the must early on to limit the tannin in the wine. If you could get Grenache or Mourvedre grapes it would give you an early drinker with less astringency.


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## Arne (Jun 7, 2016)

NorCal said:


> The good news is, assuming the grapes are wine grapes, you should have the acidity, alcohol potential and tannin which aid in the protection of the wine. SO2 is also an aid to protect the wine from oxygen, but acts to protect from bacteria spoilage. Keeping your equipment and environment super sanitary will be important. On a small batch, I plan on 20 pounds of grapes per finished gallon of wine.
> There is a reasonable chance that you can make something drinkable, but won't age. Using sulfites, engineered yeasts, yeast nutrients increases the odds, gives you a repeatable process and provides confindence the wine will age. Good luck and let us know how it goes.



Thanks for bringing up the 20 lbs. Don't know what I was thinking when I said 10. Will change it to 20. Arne.


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## JohnT (Jun 7, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Not arguing with you John. I bet you are right. There are a few reasons why I want to try no additives. First of all is my dream (obviously). Second is health concerns. I am on a very strict diet for gastro issues and most additives give me problems. A little wine here and there doesn't bother me too much, but if I'm making my own, i will probably be getting into the actual drinking part a bit more. Don't want to complicate the issues.
> Oh and btw, Abraham lived for more than 100 years


 
I applaud and admire your spirit of experimentation. 

My advice, is to attempt to buy the best grapes you possibly can. If it were me, my first concern would be purchasing grapes with the best PH level. I would advise to get a simple acid test kit and, perhaps, you could test the acid levels before making an attempt at wine. You could also get a light refractometer to measure the sugar level of the grapes again before you purchase or making a wine attempt. Testing would help you purchase the best grapes possible. There is a lot of literature out there that can give you an idea of what the best sugar/acid levels are per grape varietal. 

Good luck and please let us know how you are making out...


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## mennyg19 (Jun 7, 2016)

Thanks John. I will look into it. 
Right now I'm waiting to buy grapes. I was told that the best season for it here in Israel is towards the end of the summer. Around August time. I have off from my studies then so I might make an activity out of it and go grape picking up north in the Golan Heights with my wife and kids. (Don't know how excited she'll be, she's not so excited about my dream of winemaking).
In the meantime I'm reading as much as I can. I plan on going shopping on Amazon for equipment within the next couple of days. I have family coming from America in the coming months who can bring the stuff.


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## Mismost (Jun 7, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> 3 versus 1 on the vote, so I guess I'll go for it.
> One of the perks of where I live is that seasonal fruits and vegetables are dirt cheap (they literally pay me to take watermelon sometimes). So there isn't so much of a risk factor involved.
> I have to order some equipment from America though. That'll take some time to get here



good idea! All my attempts to reinvent the wheel have generally resulted in a flat tire experience! 

While you are waiting try to round up some buckets and glass jugs...you can make wine from all kinds of fruits and vegetables like watermelon...there is a recipe section within this forum. Do some reading, make your shopping list and buy in bigger amounts to save on shipping. Keep reading, August will be here before you know it!


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## TonyR (Jun 7, 2016)

mennyg, your dream should work, heck people have been making wine for thousands of years, just buy or pick the best tasting grapes you can, if you are going to make red wine you will need to keep the skins in the must till fermentation is done, you get lots of flavor and tannins from the skins and that is were the wild yeast will be is on the skins. If white wine you will need to press it and just ferment the juice so it stays white. You must keep everything very clean and keep the fementating must covered to keep out critters like fruit flys so you dont end up with vinegar. A tee shirt works good if using a bucket. Because you are not going to use any sulfides you will not be able to keep your wine for long term storage mainly because the alcohol level will be low because of the yeast. Good luck.


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## Masbustelo (Jun 7, 2016)

Just for the record, white grapes can also be fermented on the skins if so desired. These are referred to as "orange" wines.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 16, 2016)

Ok, so even thought this thread is a bit old, my grapes will hopefully be delivered tomorrow and i have a question:
Again, I want to use the wild yeast on the skins of the grapes and not add yeast. Question is, do I was the grapes to get rid of pesticides? Or are there no pesticides? Will the washing get rid of they yeast also?
Thanks again everyone!
Gonna try a petit syrah for my first go


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## Steve_M (Aug 16, 2016)

You do not want to wash grapes, doing so may dilute brix.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 16, 2016)

You need to contact the source for your grapes for that answer (Were pesticides used?)

That's sort of where your plan hits a big bump in the road. Getting rid of the pesticides may also get rid of a lot of the natural wild yeasts on them. 

By the way using a wine yeast is really not using an "additive" it's more like bumping up the speed of fermentation and the quality of that fermentation by introducing a yeast what will provide a better end result. Sticking to your game plan is going to introduce a number of variable over which you will have little or no control without 'additives.' If a bacteria is on the grapes and is not killed off then, as others have mentioned, your entire effort may be the production of an undrinkable wine.
Unless you use some basic tools like a Hydrometer and a TA test kit or pH meter you will sort of starting something putting it in a black box and not knowing what's happening until it's too late to correct any problems that occur.

It wasn't that many years ago that commerical wine makers even struggeled to produce good wines due the the variation of conditions in the vineyard as well as during the fermentation process. That's why some years vintages were so treasured. Now days there are so many ways to adjust the process from the vineyard to the bottle - as result most commercial wines nowadays are not meant to be aged but rather best drunk within a year from bottling. Basic aging is still done at the winery but once bottled keeping wines for several years can lead to some unhappy events.


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## JohnT (Aug 17, 2016)

I agree with scooter.. 

With wild yeast, you do not know what you are getting. It is far safer and has a far better potential for success when you go with cultured yeast. 

I also agree, never wash grapes. This will only dilute the sugar, flavor, and acid that the vintner and God have worked so hard to produce.


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## NorCal (Aug 17, 2016)

Good luck, let us know how it goes. Most all the products we use on the grapes are sulphur based (yep, unless your grapes are specifically organically grown, you will have sulphur). 

All my experience with Petite Syrah us that it will pick up a lot of tannin (gives you the mouth pucker feeling), due to the juice/berry ratio. I would look to minimize time on the skin and press earlier than later. 

How is fermentation going?


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## mennyg19 (Aug 17, 2016)

NorCal said:


> Good luck, let us know how it goes. Most all the products we use on the grapes are sulphur based (yep, unless your grapes are specifically organically grown, you will have sulphur).
> 
> All my experience with Petite Syrah us that it will pick up a lot of tannin (gives you the mouth pucker feeling), due to the juice/berry ratio. I would look to minimize time on the skin and press earlier than later.
> 
> How is fermentation going?




So you think that even with all of @JohnT's opposition i should still give it a try? 
Im getting my shipment of 110 pounds of grapes tomorrow. Is that enough? I have a 25 liter bucket and carboy. Which is about 6.6 gallons each...
I also have a 20 liter carboy which is now aging a Dragon Blood. I should be bottling by the time it comes to move the grapes out of primary. Thats about 5.2 gallons...


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## ceeaton (Aug 17, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> I'm getting my shipment of 110 pounds of grapes tomorrow. Is that enough? I have a 25 liter bucket and carboy. Which is about 6.6 gallons each...



I think with 110 lbs of grapes you'll need a larger fermenter. I calculate roughly 12 gallons of must or 45 litres, plus you need some headspace for the cap when it rises. So if you can I'd go get a larger bucket.

Here's a thread I just saw:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=617349&postcount=5


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## Johnd (Aug 17, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> So you think that even with all of @JohnT's opposition i should still give it a try?
> Im getting my shipment of 110 pounds of grapes tomorrow. Is that enough? I have a 25 liter bucket and carboy. Which is about 6.6 gallons each...
> I also have a 20 liter carboy which is now aging a Dragon Blood. I should be bottling by the time it comes to move the grapes out of primary. Thats about 5.2 gallons...



The 25 liter bucket is not going to cut it, and you can't use carboys for primary fermentation, if you did manage to push all of the grapes through the hole, and were able to punch down through the hole, it would be a holey mess, pun intended.

As Craig said, get a bigger fermenter, a 20 gallon Brute from Home Depot or some other store will work just fine, make sure it's food grade. 

When you press your grapes and rack to glass later on, you'll need more than one 6 gallon carboy, but you won't fill two of them, so have some options on hand before you press and rack. I keep a couple of 3's, a couple of 2's, four 1's and four 1/2's. You don't need that many, but you'll need options, and make sure you have the proper bungs and airlocks for them. I'd estimate that you will end up with +/- 8 gallons in secondary, that just depends upon the grapes themselves.

In subsequent rackings as the wine clears and ages, you'll be able to use the smaller vessels to top up the bigger ones.


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## JohnT (Aug 17, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> So you think that even with all of @JohnT's opposition i should still give it a try?
> Im getting my shipment of 110 pounds of grapes tomorrow. Is that enough? I have a 25 liter bucket and carboy. Which is about 6.6 gallons each...
> I also have a 20 liter carboy which is now aging a Dragon Blood. I should be bottling by the time it comes to move the grapes out of primary. Thats about 5.2 gallons...


 

I am not opposed to it, I just do not recommend it.


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## NorCal (Aug 17, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> So you think that even with all of @JohnT's opposition i should still give it a try?



When I make wine it takes a lot of time, effort and $. Having good biological control of bacteria and introducing yeast that has a proven track record are two components that I believe improve my chances of making a good wine.

Certainly not saying that it won't work without adding SO2 pre-ferment and using known yeast, but I like to improve my odds.

My calculations are:
100 lbs of grapes
11 gallons of must
6.5 gallons finished
32 750ml bottles


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## Rhetoric (Aug 18, 2016)

I'm kinda in the same situation you're in, though not voluntarily. Wine making is not practiced in Japan, so the basic materials are not easily available. But. I have a small garden and some grape vines, so I tried to make wine out of the produce I'd grown. I used the natural yeast on the grapes and it worked great! I liked it so much that I bought some grapes (kinda cheap this time of year) and tried again with commercial yeast. The result was not nearly as satisfactory as the results with the natural variety from my garden, so I kept part of the must and intend to keep it going as a culture. I'm using it now with blueberries and have strawberries and kiwis up next. If the fermentation doesn't become aggressive enough, I'll add a small bit of the commercial yeast (Pasteur Red was all I could get here).


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## stickman (Aug 18, 2016)

Menny, based on your original post, I think you have to make a few batches of additive free wine, if for no other reason, to give you something to compare against should you decide to use additives in the future. 

Most winemakers know someone from the "Old Country" that makes wine without additives, for me, it was my Father-in-law. The wine he made was not that bad when the barrel was tapped, but they never bottled it, so as the occasional jug was drained from the barrel, the remainder eventually spoiled due to oxidation and vinegar bacteria.

There are a number of wineries making additive free wine, but you have to dig a little bit to find information on their winemaking practices. Some wineries are truly old world, and some are using technology such as ozone for sanitizing (accepted organically) to help avoid the use of additives. Some sites here will get you started.

http://postmodernwinemaking.com/when-bottle-sulfite-free-cab
http://www.freywine.com/Our-Winemaking-Philosophy/No-Sulfites-Added
http://postmodernwinemaking.com/sulfite-free-winemaking


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## mennyg19 (Aug 18, 2016)

Thanks @stickman
So after thinking long and hard and after spending a boatload of money on all the equipment and grapes I decided that to make additive free wine only is too risky. 
So I decided to split my grapes and do half and half. That way I can compare the two and see what happens... So here's what I have based on my reading here and online. Remember Im using Petit Syrah, just got the shipment today. Gorgeous, but like @NorCal said, they're small. So the tannin ratio will be high. 
So, tonight I will squeeze into two primaries.
Add K-meta to one, (do I add sorbate also or just sulfites? Also, how much?) and let it sit overnight. The other will just be sitting.
After 24 hours, I will add DV10 yeast to the additive one.
Since the additive free one will not be able to age long, I will be pulling the skins out early, say 5 days into fermentation. The additive one I also don't want so much tannin, so I will pull out after a week and a half and press. (Or maybe longer? Somebody help me out)
Leave both primaries covered with a towel until SG drops below 1.040. Rack into secondary. I have 2 25 liter and 2 20 liter carboys. Someone do the math and tell me if ill be ok please?
Airlock, and let it go. 
When it hits below 1.000 and stabilizes, I will leave the airlock on the additive free one, and add sulfites and sorbate to the additive one and let them bulk age for a couple of months. I will then bottle, the additive free one will probably be after 3-4 months. I will then flash pasteurize the additive free one to kill whatever yeast may be left in there. I saw this: http://www.wikihow.com/Pasteurize-Your-Homemade-Wine
Will it work or kill my wine?

Any comments, suggestions or constructive criticism is welcome and requested 

Here are my 50 kilo of grapes:


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## ceeaton (Aug 18, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Add K-meta to one, (do I add sorbate also or just sulfites? Also, how much?) and let it sit overnight. .... and add sulfites and sorbate to the additive one and let them bulk age for a couple of months.



No sorbates necessary, unless you are back sweetening the wine after fermentation is complete, which I think is unlikely since you are doing Petit Syrah. Sorbate will keep the yeast from budding (how it reproduces) so that would be a disaster in the making if you add it before adding your yeast. I use 1/4 tsp Kmeta per 6 gallons of must. Someone here likely knows how many grams per liter, I don't.

By the way, nice looking grapes there!


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## JohnT (Aug 18, 2016)

Also, 

Be sure to sort your grapes (pull out any leaves or foreign debris).


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## stickman (Aug 18, 2016)

A lot of good advice has been given, but it ultimately depends on what you want from the wine. For the additive free wine, you have a choice, as Norcal suggests, short skin contact to make an early to drink wine, or longer skin contact to deliberately extract more tannin which is a natural preservative. The wine with more tannin will have a longer life, and will be more resistant to vinegar bacteria, but will require more aging time to soften. The choice is yours. As everyone knows, you can spend a lifetime experimenting with wine.


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## NorCal (Aug 18, 2016)

You should have around two 6 gallons of must. 1.6 grams of SO2 in 6 gallons should give you a little less than 50ppm. Then, let the must it sit till the next day and then inoculate. I think it is good to have a plan, but also prepare to deviate. Taste the wine as it is fermenting; how's the flavors, the color, how quickly is it fermenting? Any signs of h2s?

You also have to make the call on extraction vs. your willingness to let it age. Petite Syrah is not an early drinker as a single varietal. 

Good luck!


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## mennyg19 (Aug 18, 2016)

So here are my notes on the first night of squeezing (not done yet).
Those beautiful bunches had a lot of white stuff growing between the grapes, i think its mold. I left the grapes touching the white out of my must. 
It takes a LOT more work than I thought to destem and squeeze grapes... I only got through 2 out of 5 boxes. 
2 boxes got me about 15 liters of must. That means I'm headed toward about 37 liters in total between the two (a little less than 10 gallons). I didn't finish destemming and squeezing the two boxes. I need to go through each stem and pull off the single grapes I missed. There are also a few full bunches that I didnt touch due to the white stuff, so I have to go back and pull off the grapes that are good.
A bunch of bugs were in the grapes. Whatever I got on my hands did NOT go into the must. But I'm sure some got in. Two issues with that: will my wine turn into vinegar now? Also, when I rack, I'll lose all the bugs, right? Cause bugs ain't kosher and that'll be a big issue for me...
About the color. I've never squeezed grapes (besides making concord grape juice when i was 10) so I don't really know, but the juice looks brownish. Not the deep maroon I was expecting, maybe the skins will develop that color?
Anyway, feeling very accomplished and exhausted now. Gnite y'all


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## mennyg19 (Aug 19, 2016)

So I still couldnt finish squeezing my grapes. Friday is a hectic day, gotta prepare for the sabbath. 
I squeezed about half the grapes and got about 20 liters of must, which is a bit less than 6 gallons. Will the rest of my grapes go bad over the next day or two? The temp in the room is pretty nice, about 65 degrees.
I didnt add anything to the must so this will be my additive free one. Starting SG is 1.092 at 27 degrees celsius. I lowered the AC in the room so it should cool. It seems like I wont have to add sugar to my additive one either as the starting SG seems to be perfect. 
The color is developing beautifully. A nice deep maroon. Heres a pic from 5 mins ago:


The brown stuff are seeds, are they supposed to be taken out?
Also, its covered with a cloth and the lid is on top of the cloth, i hope thats good. Like this:


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## JohnT (Aug 19, 2016)

These bugs, are they fruit flies? 

They are know carriers of acetobacter (the most common family of bacteria that will convert wine to vinegar). One or two fruit flies should not really be a concern, but you do want to try and keep as many of those little bastards out as possible. 

It is also good to try and keep as many of the seeds out of the wine as possible. Seeds will add a type of tannin that most people do not like (IMHO, it makes the wine bitter).


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## mennyg19 (Aug 19, 2016)

JohnT said:


> These bugs, are they fruit flies?
> 
> They are know carriers of acetobacter (the most common family of bacteria that will convert wine to vinegar). One or two fruit flies should not really be a concern, but you do want to try and keep as many of those little bastards out as possible.
> 
> It is also good to try and keep as many of the seeds out of the wine as possible. Seeds will add a type of tannin that most people do not like (IMHO, it makes the wine bitter).




I dont think too many critters got in. Im also not sure if theyre fruit flies. Ill check tomorrow night online to see if the pictures match up. I'll also try to get the seeds out tomorrow night. The good thing is that the seeds settle to the bottom, so if I sanitize my arms I can just reach in and get handfuls out...


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## NorCal (Aug 19, 2016)

Hand stripping clusters of grapes is no fun, but it looks like you did a good job of having only the berries in the must. Hopefully fermentation will start on its own shortly.

With time and temperature bacteria will continue to grow on your remaining grapes, so the sooner you can get them crushed and properly treated with SO2, the better. 

My two biggest concerns with your ferment and aging of your all natural wine would be VA development and H2S. Research the best ways to prevent these two things.

Nice start!


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## stickman (Aug 19, 2016)

I'm not trying to disagree with anyone, but unless the seeds are green, I would leave them in your natural wine, without any other protection you will need every bit of tannin naturally available. I agree about the potential VA and H2S, I think it is a roll of the dice at this point.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 21, 2016)

Checked on my natural must this morning. No visible ferment going on. Took a sample to check the SG and nothing changed. Color is gorgeous. But theres a smell off it, not sure if its a yeasty smell or "grapes going bad" smell. I guess I'll wait and see


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## Brub58 (Aug 21, 2016)

I'll second what Stickman said. You want to prevent H2S, because it will take a lot more additives to fix than it will to prevent. You seem concerned about the SO2 additions, so skip them but still consider some early nutrient to help the yeast along. They should consume it as part of the ferment, so there won't be much, if any, left in the final wine.

Also without SO2, the tannin is all that protects your wine. Leave it on the skins longer, not less. Not sure about the seeds. I normally transfer to another fermenter half way along (delestage) and leave them behind, but then I add SO2 at the end.

Good luck. If it works a natural ferment is excellent, but you need to be clean, and apply good practices in all areas.

I wouldn't worry yet - they usually take a couple of days to get going. And I pulled 50kg of grapes off the stems by hand the first year. Got it done in a day, but never again. I'm lucky my wife is still talking to me.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 21, 2016)

Brub58 said:


> And I pulled 50kg of grapes off the stems by hand the first year. Got it done in a day, but never again. I'm lucky my wife is still talking to me.



Took me 2 days and my wife is barely talking to me. And every time she does, it contains some variation of "You've been squeezing grapes every free second!!!"

Anyway, squeezed the second half today and added SO2. I only got 15 liters of must out of this so I am going to try ordering more grapes to get up to at least 20. I ordered 2 15 liter carboys as my 20s and 25s will be too big. 
I also ordered a wine press. Its expensive though. Anybody have any ideas on how to press my grapes after primary without a press and without running myself ragged?
The SG on this half is a bit higher, 1.094. I don't think I need to add any sugar as if I get the SG down to .995, the paper that my hydrometer came with says my wine will be more than 14% ABV. 
Wish me luck! Once again, any comments, advice or constructive criticism is appreciated and requested!


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## mennyg19 (Aug 21, 2016)

I ordered more grapes, but they'll only be available tomorrow at the earliest. Is it a problem to add this to my must? I treated my must with SO2 already. So if I add grapes to it before pitching the yeast, then Im guessing I have to add more SO2 and then wait another 24 hours in order to add the yeast. Correct?


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## Brub58 (Aug 21, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Im guessing I have to add more SO2 and then wait another 24 hours in order to add the yeast. Correct?



I'd add yeast to what you've got to get it started, and sulphite the new grapes separately. Then add the new grapes to the current batch once the current batch is actively fermenting. You really don't want the grapes sitting there too long once you've crushed them. Unless you are doing a natural fermentation, of course, but that's the other batch.


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## stickman (Aug 21, 2016)

What is the current temperature of the natural must?


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## mennyg19 (Aug 21, 2016)

stickman said:


> what is the current temperature of the natural must?




24c, 75.2f


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## mennyg19 (Aug 22, 2016)

Pitched the yeast this morning in the non-natural must. I added the yeast to 100 degree water for 15 mins and then added it. Was that correct?
Natural must had all the grape skin floating to the top so I punched it down. Resulted in some bubbles rising up. Might be the ferment kicking in... I hope this works


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## mennyg19 (Aug 22, 2016)

Ok, so how long after pitching my yeast is it supposed to start looking like its fizzing? Cause i pitched 4 hours ago and it aint moving


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## TonyR (Aug 22, 2016)

If you don't see anything after 3 or 4 days I would add yeast again. Remember you have to punch down the cap a few times a day. Squeezing grapes, thats why people use to wash their feet GOOD them stomp on the grapes.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 22, 2016)

If you have the grapes in a bag - that bag is probably floating at the top. Push it to the side slightly and if the fermentation has begun you'll probably see foam and perhaps some active bubbling. Like TonyR said, a little stir and pushing that bag under the juice will help keep those grapes moist and breaking down. 

And 4 hours is no time at all. Give it 24 to 48 hours at least before you will see activity.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 22, 2016)

I don't have the grapes in a bag.
So a little update and a question:
I pushed the grapes skins down as they all floated to the top. I saw some bubbles so I wanted to see if there was any change on the hydrometer. Take out a sample, drop the hydrometer in, and.... Its too thick? Anywhere I leave go of the hydrometer it stays there. Well, not exactly, but if I touch the hydrometer it will move down to 1.080, if I pull it up a bit, it goes all the way to 1.110. Is this normal???
This happened basically on both must, tho the additive one was a bit better. 
Also, when I stirred the additive one I saw much more bubbles than the natural one, so it seems that's going pretty well.


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## Rhetoric (Aug 22, 2016)

Thank you, Menny, for this. I had the same question and the same observation. I tried inserting the hydrometer into the must,and it just sits there, I can take my choice of several readings, so how to find natural buoyancy?


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## JohnT (Aug 22, 2016)

I assume that your issue is that you are trying to take a reading, but the cap is preventing free movement of the hydrometer. 

If this is the case, I normally first strain a sample of the must into a clear cylinder, then take a reading from that.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 22, 2016)

JohnT said:


> I assume that your issue is that you are trying to take a reading, but the cap is preventing free movement of the hydrometer.
> 
> If this is the case, I normally first strain a sample of the must into a clear cylinder, then take a reading from that.



that's what I did... wine thief, test tube and a crazy hydrometer reading


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## Rhetoric (Aug 22, 2016)

Thanks, JohnT, but that begs the question of how to strain a sample. Do you use a big ladle, a funnel, and cheesecloth? (My thought.) A lot of work. How do you sterilize everything? Do you return the liquid to the fermenting container? Do you return the stained pulp to the fermenting container? It seems like it would be quite difficult to extract. I've got about 8 - 10 inches of pulp to go through to get to liquid.


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## JohnT (Aug 22, 2016)

Rhetoric said:


> Thanks, JohnT, but that begs the question of how to strain a sample. Do you use a big ladle, a funnel, and cheesecloth? (My thought.) A lot of work. How do you sterilize everything? Do you return the liquid to the fermenting container? Do you return the stained pulp to the fermenting container? It seems like it would be quite difficult to extract. I've got about 8 - 10 inches of pulp to go through to get to liquid.


 
Believe it or not, I use my fingers. I dip the cylinder into the wine with my fingers covering it. I then pull my fingers away just a crack to allow the wine into the tube, but not the seeds or skins.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 22, 2016)

There are no seeds or skins in my sample but the problem persists


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## Rhetoric (Aug 22, 2016)

Thanks! That helps a great deal. It's often the practical details that confound me when reading instructions -- I just started winemaking a few weeks ago, and it's going well, but many nagging questions. Two of the musts I've got going, one strawberry-kiwi, one blueberry, are too pulpy for fingers to work, I think. But a piece of cheesecloth with a rubber band might do the trick. Do you put the liquid back into the fermenting container after you've taken the reading?


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## Scooter68 (Aug 22, 2016)

How about a big stainless steel strainer - push it down the dip a cup inside the strainer area to get the juice? Might have to bend the handle on the strainer to get it in the bucket but...

Cheese cloth is going to be hard to work and will clog up quickly. Found a set of three I use on amazon for $15.00 or less.


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## Johnd (Aug 22, 2016)

Rhetoric said:


> Thanks, JohnT, but that begs the question of how to strain a sample. Do you use a big ladle, a funnel, and cheesecloth? (My thought.) A lot of work. How do you sterilize everything? Do you return the liquid to the fermenting container? Do you return the stained pulp to the fermenting container? It seems like it would be quite difficult to extract. I've got about 8 - 10 inches of pulp to go through to get to liquid.



Push a strainer down into the must, it will fill with liquid, scoop out with a cup and pour it into a vessel, take your SG reading. Dump it all back in, assuming you sanitized everything properly.


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## Kraffty (Aug 22, 2016)

Couple of thoughts to offer. You can build your own press pretty inexpensively, mine is made from a couple of 4x4's and the screw for a woodworkers bench vise and a drilled plastic bucket. Works great for the small amount of grapes I process. Secondly taking you SG from thick must. I've mixed half water and half juice when it's too thick, taken the reading (which is now half) and then doubled it to get a more accurate reading. I've never seen this discussed here but It's worked for me in the past. I also pour the samples back into the bucket. Best of Luck, sounds like you're on track.
Mike


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## mennyg19 (Aug 22, 2016)

So, I just checked both musts again...
Both had all the skins on the top so I pushed them down, and... FERMENTATION!!
I didn't try to take an SG reading, will try again tomorrow, but its exciting, especially for my natural one. Natural must smells a little different than the regular one. Maybe it did go bad, but I'll wait until the end and see. I ordered another 45 pounds of Petit Syrah as my regular must is a bit small. I want to fill up my 30 liter bucket and only have 15 liters in there. 
I also am trying to order 220 pounds of Cabernet Sauvignon from a very famous winery around here for when these finish in the primary...


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## Scooter68 (Aug 22, 2016)

*"So, I just checked both musts again...
Both had all the skins on the top so I pushed them down, and... FERMENTATION!!"*

Way to go!!!! Success! Let the waiting begin..... 


OR AS THE OLD VULTURES SAID:


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## Rhetoric (Aug 23, 2016)

Thanks, John T and Scooter 68. Pushing a strainer down in there and scooping up the liquid with a ladle will work with the fermenters I'm using, an 8 Liter glass jar commonly used here in Japan for making plum wine infusions.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 23, 2016)

So i tried getting another reading today and it worked. Same situation like yesterday so I guess the must thinned out a bit. Anyway, the SG dropped beautifully. 
Starting SG was 1.092 for the natural and 1.094 for the additive one. 
Now its at 1.077 for the natural and 1.074 for the additive...


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## mennyg19 (Aug 23, 2016)

The SG on my regular batch is flying down. Its all the way diwn to 1.062, that means in a day it dropped .020, is that normal?
My natural must stayed basically the same at about 1.076


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## Scooter68 (Aug 23, 2016)

What's the temp of the must and/or the room? Higher temps will push the speed of the ferment but with darker wines that's OK. 
Had a blueberry batch go from start to finish in 5 days with an ABV of 13% Temp was in the lower to mid 70s.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 23, 2016)

Its in the mid 70s. Temp of the must is 26C


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## Johnd (Aug 23, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> The SG on my regular batch is flying down. Its all the way diwn to 1.062, that means in a day it dropped .020, is that normal?
> My natural must stayed basically the same at about 1.076



It is. I've had them drop .04 in a day.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 24, 2016)

So I just got my new order of another 45 pounds of grapes. My regular must was a bit small and I wanted more, so ordered more. I am getting another bucket. Will destem, crush, add k-meta and 24 hours later, add that to my already fermenting must. Does that sound good?


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## mennyg19 (Aug 24, 2016)

Regular must: SG 1.038
Natural Must: SG 1.055


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## mennyg19 (Aug 25, 2016)

Regular Must: 1.026
Natural Must: 1.039

I took the skins out of the natural must. I wanted them in there for a week and I crushed that must last Thursday. I basically used my hands to press. Took a strainer and took out all the skins. Then I took handfuls of skins and squeezed as hard as I can until no juice came out when I squeezed. The skins were pretty dry when I finished with them. 
I plan on keeping the two must exactly the same besides for the fact that one will have additives and the other wont. So since I crushed the additive must this past Sunday, I plan on taking out the skins on Sunday, one week later.

I also plan on crushing my new grapes later today. Got some kids to help me out. 
Any comments, suggestions, advice or constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. Thanks y'all!!


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## stickman (Aug 25, 2016)

I understand that you are using time as the gauge, but the natural must is fermenting slower as expected. The additive must will be nearly complete with the sugar fermentation by the time you remove the skins, which means it will have a higher tannin content than the natural wine, due to the ability of alcohol to aid in tannin extraction. There is no real right or wrong here, it will still be a revealing experiment, but just wanted you to understand the difference with skin removal timing.


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## NorCal (Aug 25, 2016)

How do each of them smell? Any signs of h2s?


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## mennyg19 (Aug 26, 2016)

stickman said:


> I understand that you are using time as the gauge, but the natural must is fermenting slower as expected. The additive must will be nearly complete with the sugar fermentation by the time you remove the skins, which means it will have a higher tannin content than the natural wine, due to the ability of alcohol to aid in tannin extraction. There is no real right or wrong here, it will still be a revealing experiment, but just wanted you to understand the difference with skin removal timing.



So you thinkI should press already the additive must?


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## mennyg19 (Aug 26, 2016)

NorCal said:


> How do each of them smell? Any signs of h2s?



So im not sure how to tell for H2S. I googled and it said a rotten egg smell.
So to be honest, when the skins were still in there, the natural one smelled interesting. The closest thing my memory came up with, is that it smelled like this:


Anyway, after I took out the skins, it doesnt smell like that anymore. It smells way cleaner and closer to wine. Yeasty, alcohol smell.

The regular one smells much better (still on the skins)


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## mennyg19 (Aug 26, 2016)

So I crushed another 45 pounds of grapes and added SO2, I plan on adding it to my additive must to ferment. I will leave both sets of skins in for about 3-4 days and then take them all out and press. Hopefully the tannin levels will be similar to the natural must. 
Had two kids help me destem and it still took 2 hours to destem and crush...


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## mennyg19 (Aug 27, 2016)

So my regular must measured at 1.006 yesterday afternoon. It still measured the same tonight. I added from my new must to it. My new must measured at 1.084, and now my must measures at 1.036 i think (not there right now).
I also added from my new must to my natural must. My natural must measured at 1.020 on Friday and caught up to my regular must at 1.005 tonight. I added to it (not as much as i added to the regular must) and it now measures back to about 1.020
Ihope this all works. Now that I added to my natural must from my new crushed grapes its not 100% natural as I added sulfites to the new must on Friday.
Also, I have 25 liters of regular must and about 18 liters of natural must. I have a 20 liter demijohn ready for the regular one and have a 15 liter one on order for the natural must.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 28, 2016)

Regular Must: 1.029
Natural Must: 1.018
Added some skins back to the natural must to get some more tannin maybe. Will hopefully press both musts on Tuesday.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 28, 2016)

Regular Must: 1.020 and 25C
Natural Must: 1.013 and 25C


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## Johnd (Aug 28, 2016)

Time to press!!!


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 28, 2016)

Not to discourage you, but I'm not sure it will be much benefit adding more fruit this late in the ferment. I did that once about 2 1/2 months ago with my first Dragon Blood. I had squeezed the fruit bag daily and it was getting smaller by the hour. Almost nothing left after 5 days into the ferment. I added some frozen blueberries on day 6 for 2 reasons. I had done a lot more reading in the Dragon Blood thread and found that several people were adding more fruit to their 2nd and 3rd batches of DB to try and get more fruit flavor. My must was also getting pretty warm at 84 degrees and wanted to try and cool it off a bit. I stirred, recorded and squeezed the bag twice daily and on day 8, when SG was at .994, I did a final squeeze and removed the pulp. There was quite a bit of the blueberry pulp left that I had added late and surmised that I probably had not gotten much flavor extraction out of the late berry addition. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I felt that the 2# of Blueberries was kind of a waste adding it that late in the game.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 28, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Time to press!!!




Both musts or just the natural?


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## Johnd (Aug 29, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Both musts or just the natural?



I press at around 1.020 (5 Brix).


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## mennyg19 (Aug 29, 2016)

Soo. I pressed my regular must. I ended up using a sock and this:




and a sock. Worked, but it took a while and I didnt get as much juice as I had hoped. Anyway, my demijohn is not full which is an issue. I have a friedn who hopefully will have a 15L demijohn to lend to me.

Plan on pressing natural must tomorrow
Heres a picture of the pressed juice going into my demijohn. Siphoning is cool btw...


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## Johnd (Aug 29, 2016)

I hope it was a clean sock................!! Don't worry too much about the headspace right now, just keep your airlock on and don't mess with it, the CO2still being produced will keep you protected while it finishes fermenting.

If you're doing MLF, you'll want to rack in a couple days to the right sized container and add your MLB. If not, just let it go til it's completely done before racking to the right sized container(s).


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## mennyg19 (Aug 29, 2016)

Brand new white sock (well, now its pretty purple), im not that stupid 
I wanted to ask about the MLF, can I go without it? What are the pros and cons each way?

Im also new to siphoning so I got a mouth splash of wine. I don't know how to describe wine with all the fancy terms, but besides for the bit of yeast and sediment, I have to say that I like the way its coming along...


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## mennyg19 (Aug 29, 2016)

Oh and btw, SG is 1.010


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## Johnd (Aug 29, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Brand new white sock (well, now its pretty purple), im not that stupid
> I wanted to ask about the MLF, can I go without it? What are the pros and cons each way?
> 
> Im also new to siphoning so I got a mouth splash of wine. I don't know how to describe wine with all the fancy terms, but besides for the bit of yeast and sediment, I have to say that I like the way its coming along...



MLF is not a requirement for making red wine. It does have the benefit of smoothing and mellowing the wine by changing the harsher malic acid into the smoother lactic acid. It typically requires the addition of MLB, and nutrients, holding off on adding KMS, and letting the process complete over a few month period of time. The choice is really yours.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 29, 2016)

Johnd said:


> MLF is not a requirement for making red wine. It does have the benefit of smoothing and mellowing the wine by changing the harsher malic acid into the smoother lactic acid. It typically requires the addition of MLB, and nutrients, holding off on adding KMS, and letting the process complete over a few month period of time. The choice is really yours.



The real question is, will MLF quicken my wine being drinkable, I want it to be ready in 6-7 months from now.


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## Johnd (Aug 29, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> The real question is, will MLF quicken my wine being drinkable, I want it to be ready in 6-7 months from now.



The term "drinkable" means something different to everyone, and because you are ready, doesn't necessarily mean it will be. If you are asking, as it seems you are, "how will my wine taste in 6-7 months if MLF is done / not done?", not sure anyone can say unequivocally. It could be nice either way, it could be poor either way, but it'll be very young either way. Generally speaking, and I mean generally, not all, my belief is that the best quality reds are produced with MLF as a part of the winemaking regimen. That still doesn't mean you have to.

If your wine tastes acidic and sharp, MLF will make it better in 6-7 months than it would be without it, and better for all time past that mark. If you try to reduce the acidity / sharpness by other means, like potassium or calcium bicarbonate, the resultant wine can be lower in acidity (higher pH), but take on a flat or flabby mouthfeel. That's not a given either, there are many awesome high pH wines. Every grape is different, so every resulting wine is different too. I guess that's where it's more art than science.

Regardless of which path you choose, when you are doing medium to full bodied red wines from grapes, 6-7 months is infancy. 

Most nice, commercially produced red wines, undergo MLF, spend many months, if not years, in barrels, before even being bottled and released to the general public for consumption.


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## mennyg19 (Aug 30, 2016)

I guess Ill wait on my natural and try to get a MLF culture for my additive one.
Another thing. I moved my regular must to a demijohn, but i didnt have another demi for my natural. (Getting it hopefulyl later today). So I snapped down the lid of my bucket and put an airlock. The airlock on my demi is bubbling away, but my buckets airlock is still even on both sides, is that something to be worried about? Maybe the splash racking started the ferment again on the regular one but since i didnt rack the natural its stalled for now?


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## Scooter68 (Aug 30, 2016)

Plastic bucket seals often don't. You can put some water in the groove with the seal and then try snapping it on again. I don't use those lids anymore - just a muslin cloth over the top and a string to tie it down so it can't get knocked off or fall in.


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## Johnd (Aug 30, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> I guess Ill wait on my natural and try to get a MLF culture for my additive one.
> Another thing. I moved my regular must to a demijohn, but i didnt have another demi for my natural. (Getting it hopefulyl later today). So I snapped down the lid of my bucket and put an airlock. The airlock on my demi is bubbling away, but my buckets airlock is still even on both sides, is that something to be worried about? Maybe the splash racking started the ferment again on the regular one but since i didnt rack the natural its stalled for now?



Odds are that the lid snapped down on the primary bucket isn't airtight, allowing CO2 to escape through the lid instead of through the airlock.


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## brewski09 (Aug 31, 2016)

Man, a lot of negativity to spontaneous fermentation here. 

In short, yes, you can ferment with wild yeast/bacteria and they are going to be most prevalent on the skins of the grapes but you may not like what you get. Also, brettanomyces is generally considered negatively when talking about wine and is probably the most likely spontaneous fermenter you'll get from skins or the environment. I would probably pitch my own yeast first until I had everything else under control and then do a spontaneous ferment. 

If I may recomend checking out Milk The Funk as a resource there's a lot of good info about spontaneous fermentation there (Facebook and Wikipedia pages). I'll forewarn you though, it's geared to sour beer fermentation do some of it may not be applicable to you. The technical knowledge is phnom onl there though and there are a few winemakers (amateur and pro) that are playing with Brett in wine.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 31, 2016)

brewski09 said:


> Man, a lot of negativity to spontaneous fermentation here.
> 
> In short, yes, you can ferment with wild yeast/bacteria and they are going to be most prevalent on the skins of the grapes but you may not like what you get. Also, brettanomyces is generally considered negatively when talking about wine and is probably the most likely spontaneous fermenter you'll get from skins or the environment. I would probably pitch my own yeast first until I had everything else under control and then do a spontaneous ferment.
> 
> If I may recomend checking out Milk The Funk as a resource there's a lot of good info about spontaneous fermentation there (Facebook and Wikipedia pages). I'll forewarn you though, it's geared to sour beer fermentation do some of it may not be applicable to you. The technical knowledge is phnom onl there though and there are a few winemakers (amateur and pro) that are playing with Brett in wine.



Pitching yeast and THEN do a spontaneous ferment? Please explain how this would work.


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## NorCal (Aug 31, 2016)

Menny, what are your brix levels on each of your ferments?


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## mennyg19 (Aug 31, 2016)

Haven't checked. I racked my regular one to a demijohn. Then got a smaller demi because it was too big. Racked it today and got rid of about 2-3 inches of sediment (woohoo!) and it fit perfectly into my smaller one. Proud of my racking abilities


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## mennyg19 (Aug 31, 2016)

I snapped the lid down on my natural one as I dont have a demi small enough for it. Im gettigg one hopefully tonight.


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## Hound (Aug 31, 2016)

cintipam said:


> Welcome Menny!
> 
> like the others, it will be interesting to follow your attempts. I hope all goes well and you get to enjoy the fruits of your labors. But since you a brand spankin newbee to all this I thought I should mention that watermelon is one of those wines that even experienced wine makers have problems with. It spoils so fast that even with chemicals the results are almost always undrinkable. So, maybe not watermelon with your no chemical plan?
> 
> Pam in cinti



Pam,

I'm working on a watermelon wine right now, if it works out, I will keep you updated! It is only a 4 gallon batch, FYI.


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## brewski09 (Sep 1, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Pitching yeast and THEN do a spontaneous ferment? Please explain how this would work.




I was trying to say do enough batches with purchased yeast to know you've got that down before doing a spontaneous batch so you control everything else. Now that I'm thinking about it though, you can pitch yeast and then leave it exposed for spontaneous bacteria too and this will let the pitched yeast outcompete any potential dangerous bacteria while still allowing native bacteria to potentially take hold.


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## mennyg19 (Sep 1, 2016)

Just racked and measure SG again and I'm excited...
.997 on the additive one
.998 on the natural one.
For some reason I keep miscalculating how big my demi has to be, so I need to get a 10L for my natural must. Good thing, I'll be able to get rid of a lot of sediment. I also took a sip of my additive one, and I'm loving it... I'm not such a wine expert, so I dont know all the terms and stuff, but it's a fruity delicious wine. Not much of a puckery aftertaste, no punch in the mouth dryness. Don't know if you all understand my rambling, but I love it and thats what counts...

That puts the ABV at about 14.5% for both of them. If I'm doing the math right...


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## NorCal (Sep 1, 2016)

Congrats! Sounds like two nicely executed ferments.


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 1, 2016)

brewski09 said:


> I was trying to say do enough batches with purchased yeast to know you've got that down before doing a spontaneous batch so you control everything else. Now that I'm thinking about it though, you can pitch yeast and then leave it exposed for spontaneous bacteria too and this will let the pitched yeast outcompete any potential dangerous bacteria while still allowing native bacteria to potentially take hold.



Is this what happens when we cover the primary with just a cloth and no airlock? I'm wondering if that's why kits want to snap down and airlock the primary? Maybe I'm confusing bacteria with yeast's.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 1, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Is this what happens when we cover the primary with just a cloth and no airlock? I'm wondering if that's why kits want to snap down and airlock the primary? Maybe I'm confusing bacteria with yeast's.



Probably not. Native yeast will be overcome by commercial great, in most cases.


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## JohnT (Sep 2, 2016)

Manny, 

Did you take a sip of the "natural" one? How does it compare?


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## mennyg19 (Sep 2, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Manny,
> 
> Did you take a sip of the "natural" one? How does it compare?




Didnt try it yet. Will probably take a sip tomorrow night when I rack. Im gonna have too much anyway for my smaller demijohn.

And its mEnny... Sorry, just been dealing with the name mixups since I was born


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## brewski09 (Sep 2, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Is this what happens when we cover the primary with just a cloth and no airlock? I'm wondering if that's why kits want to snap down and airlock the primary? Maybe I'm confusing bacteria with yeast's.




It can. There are a host of wild yeasts and bacteria. Brettanomyces is the most common wild bacteria to encounter and can range from black peppery to barnyard to acidic to sweat/manure and more. There are potential spoilage bacteria out there as well but I'm no expert in all of this yet (I'll be doing a spontaneous ferment of beer this fall)


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## mennyg19 (Sep 5, 2016)

Ok, big announcement...
I racked my natural wine into a smaller demijohn and had some extra. Due to some kosher laws I needed to get rid of 1/100th of it, but I still had about 1.25L extra. So i bottled .750 and took the rest to my friends for taste testing.
They were pretty honest with me (i think). Most are not major wine drinkers, but said they enjoyed the sip. One gave it a 7 out of 10. 
All in all, it looks like I did well with this. My parents are coming from the states to cisit next week. Even though my wine is in its infancy, I will probably serve them a glass or two out of the bottle and see what they say.
Personally, I like it. Fruity, smooth finish, a little off dry, but not at all sweet. A bunch of people didn't believe me when I said its about 13.5% ABV, they said it didnt have that much of a alcohol kick to it. 
Now, I have 15Liters of regular wine and 10L of natural wine bulk aging.
Question: when do I add the sulfites to the additive wine? And do I add sorbate? I dont plan on back-sweetening it...

Heres a picture of my bottle:


I hammered the cork in afterwards


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## Johnd (Sep 5, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Now, I have 15Liters of regular wine and 10L of natural wine bulk aging.
> Question: when do I add the sulfites to the additive wine? And do I add sorbate? I dont plan on back-sweetening it...



If you're sure fermentation is complete, you can add your sulfites now. If you finished dry and don't intend to add sweetness, you can omit sorbate. Bulk aging will relieve you of CO2 and sediment over the next 6-9 months. Looks good Menny!!


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## ceeaton (Sep 5, 2016)

Menny, a 7 out of 10 is pretty darn good for how young that wine is, so I'd say that is a small victory. Just be patient and age that as long as you can stand to, you will be rewarded in the long run. As John said, if you think fermentation is complete I'd add your Kmeta, especially if your temperatures are warm. Omit the Sorbate if you aren't going to add some sweetness to it.


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## mennyg19 (Sep 5, 2016)

Johnd said:


> If you're sure fermentation is complete, you can add your sulfites now. If you finished dry and don't intend to add sweetness, you can omit sorbate. Bulk aging will relieve you of CO2 and sediment over the next 6-9 months. Looks good Menny!!




Thanks, how much sulfites for 15L? 
Can anyone do math around here?


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## NorCal (Sep 6, 2016)

Congrats. Looks like you got good extraction. I don't let anyone taste my wine for at least a year after fermentation. Mine is just not finished developing at that point.


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## Johnd (Sep 6, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Thanks, how much sulfites for 15L?
> Can anyone do math around here?



Depends on your finished pH, based on that you can determine how many grams / liter you need. If yo want to wing it, it's 15/23 of a 1/4 tsp dose, little over 1/8 tsp. I'm assuming that you're not doing MLF, if that's correct, dose away.


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## mennyg19 (Sep 6, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Depends on your finished pH, based on that you can determine how many grams / liter you need. If yo want to wing it, it's 15/23 of a 1/4 tsp dose, little over 1/8 tsp. I'm assuming that you're not doing MLF, if that's correct, dose away.




1/8 tsp per liter?


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## Johnd (Sep 6, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> 1/8 tsp per liter?



NO!!!!!! Way too much! A little over 1/8 tsp for your entire 15 liter batch!!!


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## mennyg19 (Sep 6, 2016)

Johnd said:


> NO!!!!!! Way too much! A little over 1/8 tsp for your entire 15 liter batch!!!




Good thing I didnt add it yet. So 1/8 for my 15L batch, and Im not adding to my natural batch...


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## Johnd (Sep 6, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Good thing I didnt add it yet. So 1/8 for my 15L batch, and Im not adding to my natural batch...



Menny, take a few minutes and read this article, it includes a chart indicating dosage for a range of pH values.

http://winemakersacademy.com/potassium-metabisulfite-additions/


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## mennyg19 (Dec 7, 2016)

So a little update:
My two petit syrahs (one all-natural and one with additives) are aging in demijohns right now. I plan on bottling in the coming months and then bottle-age.
Interestingly, the demijohn with the additives seems to have settled nicely. Not entirely, but theres a nice think layer of sediment on the bottom. Additive-free demi, is not settled anywhere near that. It starts getting cloudy from halfway down the demi... Any ideas to help it along? No additives...


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## ceeaton (Dec 7, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> So a little update:
> My two petit syrahs (one all-natural and one with additives) are aging in demijohns right now. I plan on bottling in the coming months and then bottle-age.
> Interestingly, the demijohn with the additives seems to have settled nicely. Not entirely, but theres a nice think layer of sediment on the bottom. Additive-free demi, is not settled anywhere near that. It starts getting cloudy from halfway down the demi... Any ideas to help it along? No additives...



Can you put the demijohn in a colder/cooler spot? Don't know what your ambient outdoor temperatures are this time of year, but if it is somewhat degassed, I've noticed my wines settle quicker in my basement (which is 59*F (15*C)) than in my kitchen which averages 66-68*F. I can also put it out in my garage which is anywhere from 40*F to 25*F (4.5*C to -4*C), and if tartaric acid crystals are going to form, it happens rather quickly.


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## Johnd (Dec 7, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> Interestingly, the demijohn with the additives seems to have settled nicely. Not entirely, but theres a nice think layer of sediment on the bottom. Additive-free demi, is not settled anywhere near that. It starts getting cloudy from halfway down the demi... Any ideas to help it along? No additives...



Less than 4 months ago, your wine was grapes. Time and patience are my prescription......


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## JohnT (Dec 8, 2016)

Depending on how thick that layer is, I would consider racking it. 

Other than that, just give it time, your patience will be rewarded!


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## mennyg19 (Dec 9, 2016)

Thanks guys. As there are no added sulfites in the wine, I was hoping to bottle it sooner than later to keep away from the risk of it going bad. That's basically why I'm asking. So I want to bottle in about 3-4 months for the passover holiday.
Ill try a cold crash, and then rack and we'll see what happens...


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## NorCal (Dec 9, 2016)

If it hasn't cleared, expect sediment in the bottle. Not the end of the world, but can make for surprises in the wineglass. Do you have access to a home water filter? I buy 1 and .5 micron filters, which also do a good job of taking particulates out.


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## mennyg19 (Jan 23, 2017)

So I racked my 2 wines today (one with additives, one without). The one with additives racked beautifully and I left about an inch of sediment out. Pretty good racking for a newbie like me, but I lost about a half cup of wine, I didn't want to get too close to the sediment. 
The one without additives was interesting. I shined a light through it and saw a layer on the bottom of sediment. However, when I racked, I realized there was no compacted sediment on the bottom, just like a crust along the bottom of the demijohn. This one is taking a while to settle...


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## NorCal (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks for the update. How are they smelling/tasting?


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## mennyg19 (Jan 23, 2017)

NorCal said:


> Thanks for the update. How are they smelling/tasting?



I didn't have any topping off wine, so I didn't taste it 
Smell is delicious though. No off smells from the additive free wine...


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## drainsurgeon (Jan 23, 2017)

5 months and you did not taste it?? This guy has discipline! (or he's a beer drinker)


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## mennyg19 (Jan 23, 2017)

drainsurgeon said:


> 5 months and you did not taste it?? This guy has discipline! (or he's a beer drinker)




I tasted at the last racking, I had an extra bottle. This time there was too much wine to drop down to a smaller size demijohn and too little to taste.. notes are here: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=621665
About the beer: I don't drink beer unless it's free.


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## mennyg19 (Mar 26, 2017)

So I bottled 5 liters!!! 
Was totally amazing, VERY fruity, and it gets better with every minute in the glass. Here's a pic of my bottles


When it got straight, I knew I had enough to drink.


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## NorCal (Mar 26, 2017)

Congrats and thanks for sharing along the way.


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## JohnT (Mar 27, 2017)

Why the crazy shaped bottle? They do not look like they would easily sit in a rack or be stacked...


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## mennyg19 (Mar 27, 2017)

JohnT said:


> Why the crazy shaped bottle? They do not look like they would easily sit in a rack or be stacked...




They actually stack pretty well believe it or not. Either way, they're mostly gone. All the crazy shaped bottles were given away. They're a great conversation piece. "Were you drunk when you made this bottle?"
I have mostly regular shaped bottles: 375ml, 500ml and 750ml


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## Zigfish (Mar 27, 2017)

question about sulfates. Making a batch of blueberry - my third batch of wine. this is only one gallon, used frozen berries boiled sugar water and dumped over frozen berries in the primary fermentor. thought the hot water would kill any yeast - maybe not. Would most people making wine put in sulfates before fermenting, in this case and in general?

if it ferments out ok and i add sulfates before bottling will this take care of concerns?


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## pip (Mar 30, 2017)

I always use sulfate at the start for my fruit wine. I'd be very tempted to get some sulfate into your blueberry after its finished fermenting, just to be on the safe side.


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