# Grape Skin Packs Available!!



## Pumpkinman

I wanted to let everyone know that you can find Grape Skin Packs at Brew and Wine Hobby

Brew And Wine Hobby.com carries the 3 varieties offered by Pak labs, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon & Shiraz. Each pack is 2.5 kg, or 5 lbs - for $24.50
Shipping was real fast as well, I received mine in 2 days.

The service is great, the owner, Rich, is very quick to answer any question via email or by phone, I sent and received a few email at 7:30 am, he was returning email from home!

I had questions about the Kamil Juice that I've heard so much about, he gave me detailed info, much more than the LHBS that I am used to.

If you are going to order, they are in the process of updating their website, I had to enter a quantity of 4 before the shopping cart took my order, but don't be afraid, it only charges you for one.
I made Rich aware of this and he assured me that he is going to have that corrected asap.

The bottom line is that we can now order these Grape Skin packs without having to order a bundle of 4 like we had to when ordering from Pak Lab via Ebay.
The service is great, the prices are very fair and these folks stand behind their products!

A win win in my book!

Tom


----------



## eblasmn9

Thanks for the information, Tom. Im going to check it out.


----------



## ibglowin

Dang they are big but pricey!


----------



## Pumpkinman

Not really much more than they were when listed by paklab


----------



## ibglowin

They were only ~$13 when you could buy them separately from Fine Vine Wines (made by Cellar Craft).


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Pumpkin.........How big (liters) are their Kamil juices. I dont see it on their site.


----------



## Rocky

ShawnDTurner said:


> Pumpkin.........How big (liters) are their Kamil juices. I dont see it on their site.


 
They are huge, 2.5 Kg or about 5.5 pounds.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

I was referring to the amount of juice it looks like they are 11 liters


----------



## Rocky

Hey, I never said I could read!


----------



## ldmack3

If you zoom in one of the jugs you can get the Ph, TA, Brix, etc. and the size.


----------



## Pumpkinman

I was talking to Rich, he wanted me to know that a lot of people are calling these juices 100% fresh Juice, he let me know that these are adjusted to some extent and the Kamil winery, but that didn't change the fact that loads of people are claiming it to be the best that they ever had.
I might try the Kamil Moscato.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Mike, how long ago could you get them from Fine wine Vines, and how many lbs were there?
Unfortunately, these are not cellar craft.


----------



## ibglowin

They were the smaller ones about 1.5L IIRC. This was about 18 mo ago.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Yep, so all in all, these aren't so much of a bad deal.


----------



## deboard

Has anyone done one of these kamil juices? They are not quite 3 gallons, and I'm assuming no water is added? That's a bit of an awkward size truthfully, at least for those of us who have carboys in gallons.


----------



## ibglowin

Except that by the time you have paid the extra $25-30 (with shipping) you could have bought the higher end kit WITH the grape pack! LOL



Pumpkinman said:


> Yep, so all in all, these aren't so much of a bad deal.


----------



## tonyt

Glowin, where am I supposed to get a Montepulciano or Sangiovese with skins. And unless I want WE (hard for me to get) what about skins for Brunello or Nero D'Avola? Teach a guy how to make wine from grapes and he forgets bout us little people. Shoot, if Pumpkinman would have posted this in Kit Winemaking area you probably wouldn't have even seen it. Love ya anyway!


----------



## tonyt

Now someone please pull the knife out of Mike's back.


----------



## ibglowin

Ha! Raisins my good man, raisins for those Italian blends!


----------



## ibglowin

Everytime I buy a new barrel I have to buy a breakin' Red kit! So thats one a year (still) these days it seems!


----------



## Impiryo

Is it worth adding these to higher end kits that already have a grape pack, or is that excessive? Starting a cc malbec and mosti RI amarone shortly.


----------



## ibglowin

That would be excessive IMHO.


----------



## Rocky

Impiryo, IMHO, yes it is worth it. I have not made the CC Malbec but I did the Mosti RI Amarone. I thought it was thin (I used both the raisins and the grape pack) and would have benefited from more skins.

Edit: I saw Mike's post after I had posted mine and I would like to emphasize that I am only talking about the MM RI line. I feel that the MM line is notoriously thin. I also know that Mike is a big fan of Cellar Craft, as I am. In the case of the Malbec, it may be overkill. I just don't know.


----------



## DoctorCAD

They DON'T have them. Just tried to buy some.


----------



## smcalli1

DoctorCAD said:


> They DON'T have them. Just tried to buy some.



Did you try to order online? I ordered online a couple days ago and didn't get a backorder notice. Of course, I haven't received them yet either.


----------



## ldmack3

I've done several and do 2 at a time so I have a full 5 agl with enough left over for topping. Problem is Vadai is out of 5 gal barrels for the next 2-4 months. So I am using some commercial and other lower quality kits to top off.

So far they have been great.


----------



## Pumpkinman

> Ha! Raisins my good man, raisins for those Italian blends!


I like using raisins as well, but too many raisins can impart a sherry like taste.

I still don't understand the discontent with these grape skin packs, many are trying to tweak their kits to get a more commercial or traditional wine out of them. One of the most experienced wine makers that I've exchanged emails with is Bzac, he actually recommends adding 5 lb grape skin pack, he went as far as to make his own from a fresh lug or two of grapes.

If the core of the issue lies within the $24.50 that they cost for 5 lbs, I think that is one of the silliest things I've heard, we spend more money on various additives and equipment that we may or may not need, when someone comes across a product that has been talked about many times here on winemakingtalk, only to be dismissed as "they're not available anywhere", I would think that you would be excited at the possibility of fellow wine makers being able to improve their wine and wine making experience.

Not everyone can afford or has the room for Crushers, Destemmers and Presses, this has the potential of giving those of us that make wine from Juice buckets and Kits to improve and experience the whole push down the cap, rack off the gross lee experience, not to mention, for those of us that use juice buckets, we will be able to start experimenting with products like opti -red when using the skins and so on, isn't that what this community is supposed to be about? Helping others and getting the most out of the wine making experience?

Mike, you are a moderator and have a winery, you have a lot to offer this community, I would think that you would be more receptive and encouraging than this.

Should I keep my reviews and advice to myself from here on out?


----------



## Pumpkinman

> They DON'T have them. Just tried to buy some.



DoctorCad, I just called them to see what is going on, they told me that they have a shipment coming in the middle of next week, they have been placing smaller orders as to not have product sitting around getting old.


----------



## ibglowin

Tom,

I think they are a great addition and have used them myself in the past. My comment was if you are spending $100 for a lower end kit that doesn't have a grape pack then you spend $30 more for a grape pack just make sure you couldn't find a better higher end kit for the same money or perhaps even less.

Thats the only point I was honestly trying to get across.


----------



## deboard

I'm with Ibglowin, I wouldn't add these to a $100 kit, but I might add one to a juice bucket!


----------



## Pumpkinman

I have a $100 plus Brunello kit that I added it to.


----------



## ibglowin

I would have added $4 (1lb) worth of organic flame red raisins from Whole Foods instead of a $30 grape pack........ 

But I am SURE IT WILL BE FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wade E

As good as some kits can be I just wonder if they can be even better with using more and more skins. I know there has to be a cut off but Im willing to bet even maybe a Winery Series could benefit from 1 maybe 2 of these packs and be a "$40" bottle of wine? I know I know, here we go again with pricing of wines knowing very well Ive had $8 bottles that were better then $25 bottles.


----------



## Pumpkinman

I let you know how this compares to my buddies Brunello, exact same kit, started the exact same time, only difference is the addition of the grape skin Pack.
I am thinking about substituting the "heavy toast oak chips" included with a Heavy Plus oak infusion spiral, after 24 hrs, you can hardly even taste the oak. I'll wait another day and decide.
By the way, I found a fairly inexpensive source for Oak Infusion spirals, the real spirals from the the barrel mill, American oak spirals for $7.99 and French oak Spirals for $10.99, compared to $14.99 and up for 2 spirals.


----------



## tonyt

Sorry I didnt mean to start an argument. Just wanted to tease Mike. I use raisins too with good results thanks to Mike's suggestion. Most of my comments are tongue in cheek.


----------



## ibglowin

As mine are Tony!


----------



## Wade E

With the exception of maybe 2 kits I always add additional oak to my reds.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Good to know Wade, I am real new to Kits.

Tony, this isn't an argument, I never intended it to be, and no worries, you didn't start anything my friend. 

My comments were intended to try to figure out why I found a bunch of posts indicating that there was some serious interest in Grape Skin Packs until they couldn't be sourced anymore, then when I find them, it seems that it is being advised against using them?

I was excited to share what I thought was going to be a great link.

If this can help make a better wine, or even just make a few people a little bit more excited about making their next batch, why knock it?

Yes, I agree, I've used raisins as well, and even in the dragon blood and Melomel recipes, you will see that I add raisins, no doubt about it, but this wasn't about finding raisins, this was about finding a product that people had been looking for, available for less than the $79.99 that you had to buy previously, essentially making them within most wine makers reach.

I do understand about purchasing higher quality kits, but even that is subjective, I for instance, tasted my buddies Brunello and even very young could see where is was going, I thought it was real good, this became the kit I wanted to try. 
I don't know how the others are, but I do know that I wanted to try this one, I really enjoyed it.

Why add the Grape skins? Well, to be honest after reading all of the positive reviews about using them, and reading Bzacs post on tweaking kits, it seemed like a no brainer.



> But I am SURE IT WILL BE FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Mike, LMAO...you Don't have to agree with me, I'm not sitting at home sobbing because you didn't agree with me...LOL

I'll keep you posted on the outcome.


----------



## ibglowin

If I ruffled any feathers I certainly apologize. I know full well we are all just trying to make GREAT wine in the end!


----------



## tonyt

Pumpkinman said:


> My comments were intended to try to figure out why I found a bunch of posts indicating that there was some serious interest in Grape Skin Packs until they couldn't be sourced anymore, then when I find them, it seems that it is being advised against using them?
> I was excited to share what I thought was going to be a great link.


That describes my situation with the skins packs. I was ready to place an order and even had a shopping cart filled then I realized that the next five kits I have planned either have grape packs or are white. I'll have to wait and see what I plan for fall to determine if I need skins and what variety. I will likely do a Muntepulciano and need one for that bud not sure if I want Syrah or Merlot? I WAS very pumped to have a supplier at hand though.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Mike,
First off, my apologies, I reread my posts and it does have the feel that I am attacking you, it really wasn't my original intention. I've received a message from another member telling me just how helpful you have been to him, and I realized that it wasn't fair to you to condemn you opinion.

Tony, Merlot was recommend due it being more of a middle of the road type that won't change the character of the wine like Cab Sav for instance, Cab can have the more pronounced Cab Franc like "green pepper" notes, something that I really do not want in my traditional Italian Reds..LOL!


----------



## Rocky

Tom, Mike and Tony,

I have read and re-read the posts and I don't see any conflict, rather an honest exchange of ideas and opinions. I also want to say that you three guys are among my favorites on this forum. "Can't we all just get along?" Like my Grandfather used to say, "Don't make me take my belt off!"


----------



## tonyt

Hahaha I use to say that too, never did any good.


----------



## ibglowin

Were all good. It can be hard to judge just how things are being said and or meant when all you have is the dry written text to go on. Things can be misconstrued. I think that happened in this case. I am a big fan of grape packs and always have been. 

Looking forward to seeing how things turn out with this new source!


----------



## Pumpkinman

Rocky, thanks for the kind words! Mike, thanks for understanding.


----------



## seth8530

Do you think that any of these grape skins would go well with a Pinot Noir? I am trying to keep the flavor as true as I can....


----------



## ibglowin

My guess is no. None of the high end kits that put out a Pinot Noir come with any form of skin or even raisins. Even the new 18L Eclipse NZ Pinot Noir doesn't have any. There must be a reason.


----------



## ldmack3

Spoke to Rich at BWH today.
He has had a tremendous increase in demand for the grape packs and has 100 each coming next week.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Rich is a good guy, i'll order from someone as honest as him any day!!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

The megioli Pinor Noir comes with skins


----------



## ShawnDTurner

http://www.finevinewines.com/XPListDet2.asp?MM_PartNumber=ME07A


----------



## Boatboy24

ShawnDTurner said:


> The megioli Pinor Noir comes with skins




I noticed that. Were it not for the mixed reviews I've seen on the Meglioli kits, I'd probably have ordered one already.


----------



## seth8530

So pinot Noir.... Skins or no skins?


----------



## DirtyDawg10

Wish I had seen this thread before. Rich and B&W Hobby are my LHBS. He's about a 5min drive for me. I was talking to him about the Kamil juices he carries and I'm thinking of trying one in the near future.


----------



## jimmyjames23

seth8530 said:


> So pinot Noir.... Skins or no skins?



Skins and use Lalvin Bourgorouge RC212 for the yeast. It preserves/enhances color and mouthfeel.


----------

