# Homemade vs. Commercial and what I am doing to close the gap



## NorCal

My goal is to make a $5 bottle of wine that will stand up to the local $25+ commercial wines that I like. This is my 7th vintage and below are the conclusions that I have reached, what I have tried and what I am trying.

I believe my wines would will stand up (blind tasting of knowledgeable people) against the average and below wineries in our area. The same cannot be said versus the top wineries in our area. I recently opened up a bottle from my favorite winery in the area and said to myself, $*#@#, why can't I make wine that taste like this. 

The difference I find is the depth and breadth of flavors I get from these excellent commercial wines. 

I believe that the biggest differentiating factor for me the ability to control fermentation temperature, which has been discussed before. Their ability to cold soak, slow fermentation and do extended maceration after fermentation has been completed is where the depth and breath of flavors are being extracted from the grapes.

Since I'm making 100-200 gallons per year, the cost associated with buying a chilling unit is beyond the hobby level. So, this is what I've done and this is what I'm trying to elevate the quality of my wines.

*Blending* - I find myself leaning on Petite Sirah and Petit Verdot more and more as a means to bring color, tannin and depth to my wines. It has made my Cab Sauv and Cab Franc's much better wines.

*Slowing Fermentation* - I've tried fermenting in my cold box (65-69 degrees), frozen milk cartons and this year adding 50%-70% of the yeast that is called for. Fortunately this year, grapes were late, so we naturally had cooler ambient temps and my fermentations were 10-12 days vs the typical 7

*Free Run* - This year I kept the free run cab franc separate from the pressed cab franc. The freerun has much more of the varietal flavor than the pressed wine. I used a much higher percentage of the free run wine in this year's barrel. 

*Slow to Press* - Even though the brix level hit 0, I let it sit an extra day / day and a half. The weather was cooler than usual and I may be flirting with spoilage opportunities, but I was willing to take the chance.

*Saignee* Pulling 15%-30% of the juice out of a red ferment 

Anything else you can think of?


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## WellingtonToad

We are in parallel. We appear to have been making wine for the same about of time, and have the same issue. 
I do however describe it differently. To me, I separate flavour and taste. Taste being mouth feel, acid, and tannins. Flavour is the berries, and a little from the oak. 
Firstly, I believe a two hour rest in the decanter before drinking goes a part of the way there. 
Blending helps a lot, but I use Merlot with Cab Say or Shiraz. It really doesn't take much. Less than 5% will lift the wine. 
We differ in that you make a lot more than me. I only do 100 litres a year. I was thinking it was the barrel I needed. Do you keep a close eye on sulphur levels in the barrel? 
I am interested in what others have to say.


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## salcoco

I notice neither of you discuss yeast selection. nor do you discuss variable oak aging, ie American, French and Hungarian. I believe the micro-oxygenation provided by a barrels is also key.


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## ibglowin

I think one thing you may not be putting more thought into perhaps is quality of the fruit. I know you have better fruit than many/most of us that rely on mass produced, mass picked fruit out of the Lodi AVA but perhaps it might not be the best clones of the same fruit, might be the soil or vineyard site. Yeast selection might play a role. Barrel size and selection may have an impact.

So @NorCal the burning question I have is who is your favorite commercial red wine from the area that you compare things to?


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## mainshipfred

To start with and to compare, the cost of my $5 bottle with grapes from Cali will be much higher than yours since your cost of fruit is half of what we pay here on the East Coast for probably higher quality. With that being said we do have a few varietal here in Virginia that are favorable to our area. Those include most notably are Viognier, Petit Manseng, Norton, Petite Verdot, Tannat and Cab Franc. With the exception of Cab Franc and a Norton I made in 2017 this year will be my first attempt with Virginia fruit. With the exception of the Viognier which came in at a pH of 4.20 all the numbers were really good and the fruit was near perfect. Last year was the first time I paid a premium for quality fruit and those 2 wines are my best to date although I can't rule out the experience I've gained hasn't contributed to that. My point is I'm now a believer in the quality of the fruit makes a huge difference so we'll have to wait and see how the VA wines turn out. I am also a fan of blending and slow fermentation so far has been limited to whites. My batches are not large enough to separate the free run from the press so I haven't tried that. Saignee is something I tried for the first time this fall but with wines I am making for the first time so there will be nothing to compare to. What I suspect will be my best wine this year will be the PV which came from 3 different Virginia vineyards but I'm looking forward to all of them.

My add to your list is quality friuit.


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## NorCal

I have the luxury of living in a community that sells grapes to the local wineries. I get the exact same grapes that are sold the wineries. @4score and I have also built relationships with other commercial vineyards and pool our needs to buy grapes by the ton. For me, I can take access to fruit off the table.
My reds are aged in barrels and I’ve purchased a number of new American and French barrels, so that too is off the table.

I know the owner of a great winery and the winemaker well and he has tasted and given me feedback on my wines a number of times. I told him I was trying to emulate his Viognier last year. He asked if I was able to ferment for three months, like he does. That is what really confirmed in my mind what I believe is the biggest differentiating factor.


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## CDrew

Having seen the @NorCal set up, and tasted the wine, I'd say you're being too hard on yourself. Because the wine is already excellent, and any of us would be proud with that result. And the fruit there is beautiful and well tended, and likely better than anything out of a Lodi commercial vineyard. I have not tasted enough Cabernet Franc to know exactly what to look for, but are you comparing apples to apples or Gala to Granny Smith?

I had another thought too. @NorCal, you mentioned that you minimize fermentation additives like Opti-Red or tannin. For sure, the commercial guys do not, and they have access to all the specialized toys. 

Agree with this:



NorCal said:


> I believe that the biggest differentiating factor for me the ability to control fermentation temperature, which has been discussed before. Their ability to cold soak, slow fermentation and do extended maceration after fermentation has been completed is where the depth and breath of flavors are being extracted from the grapes.



And that's not to mention how commercial process on a large scale is just better than what can be done in the garage. For instance, I was at a winery 3 days ago picking up grapes. They were loading the crusher and immediately steam cleaning the bins. Then the bins were filled with must and ready for fermentation. So in 30 seconds the 1000 pound bin was emptied, cleaned, sterilized and back in use with no wasted motion. I was thinking how smart and how quick that was with no cleaner needed. The owner let me use the steam wand to clean out my Brute fermentors and I was immediately impressed. It was a combination steam cleaner and pressure washer. Perfect. And likely every stage of the commercial process is like that.


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## mainshipfred

CDrew said:


> Having seen the @NorCal set up, and tasted the wine, I'd say you're being too hard on yourself. Because the wine is already excellent, and any of us would be proud with that result. And the fruit there is beautiful and well tended, and likely better than anything out of a Lodi commercial vineyard. I have not tasted enough Cabernet Franc to know exactly what to look for, but are you comparing apples to apples or Gala to Granny Smith?
> 
> I had another thought too. @NorCal, you mentioned that you minimize fermentation additives like Opti-Red or tannin. For sure, the commercial guys do not, and they have access to all the specialized toys.
> 
> Agree with this:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's not to mention how commercial process on a large scale is just better than what can be done in the garage. For instance, I was at a winery 3 days ago picking up grapes. They were loading the crusher and immediately steam cleaning the bins. Then the bins were filled with must and ready for fermentation. So in 30 seconds the 1000 pound bin was emptied, cleaned, sterilized and back in use with no wasted motion. I was thinking how smart and how quick that was with no cleaner needed. The owner let me use the steam wand to clean off my Brute fermentors and I was immediately impressed. It was a combination steam cleaner and pressure washer. Perfect. And likely every stage of the commercial process is like that.



I'v often wondered if fermenting in a large bin would make a difference similar to aging in a commercial size barrel as opposed to a 30 or 40 liter, liquid to surface ratio aside.


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## 1d10t

You can get a chest freezer that goes up to around 185 gallon capacity. You'd lose some back to spacing depending on what bin you could find to fit inside. Temperature movement would be slow. Many in the home brew beer community are using aquarium controllers off of sleaze bay for temperature control. 

Not sure what the heating/cooling business is like in your area but I'd try and 'friend' a couple guys and have them be on the lookout for someone that is upgrading an old cooling system with new. You might be able to convert it to your use.


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## crushday

This is one of the most intriguing forum posts in recent memory. Although I have nothing to add, I'm raising my glass to @NorCal for helping me fine my craft. And, I want to be notified when something else is added to the post...


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## Rice_Guy

I am surprised no one has suggested oxygen exposure yet. 

After racking UC Davis does tricks with their floating cover tanks as covering the tank with a plastic shroud and bleeding nitrogen in. Have also seen setups where they have plastics and keep a slight positive pressure on the system with N2


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## WellingtonToad

1d10t said:


> You can get a chest freezer that goes up to around 185 gallon capacity. You'd lose some back to spacing depending on what bin you could find to fit inside. Temperature movement would be slow. Many in the home brew beer community are using aquarium controllers off of sleaze bay for temperature control.
> 
> .



Last year I tried the temperature control route. It was not successful. It's not just about maintaining temperature, it's about maintaining the right temperature. 
Colour and aroma start from the beginning of the ferment. The required temp is about 28 - 30C. After that there may be a benefit from cutting back on temperature to extend the ferment, and reduce the volatile blow off. 
Another opportunity that I have seen another wine maker doing with good success, is to start with a natural ferment before innoculating with yeast. Wait until the natural ferment is underway then inoculate. He got amazing results in terms of aroma and flavour. I am only looking at trying it this year. 
As for being too hard on one's self, the challenge is always for gold medal, and once that is achieved best wine of show.
I and I am sure many others want to drink the best wines we can. Just don't want to have to buy it.


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## 1d10t

WellingtonToad said:


> Last year I tried the temperature control route.



This is my first real year of trying wine and after a couple of kits I'm trying juice buckets. I have an old fridge that I put shelf in and can do two 8 gallon ferment buckets at a time. I keep the temperature probe strapped to the bucket about 3/4's of the way up the liquid height. On top of that I've turned it into a stir plate that uses 2 inch bars. I keep it degassed, the yeast stirred and the temperature constant throughout the full volume that way. I do the MFL towards the end of ferment but I keep the critters stirred and in suspension. After I add the nutrient for the 1/3 sugar break I seal and don't open the buckets until time to rack. I have a syringe that I use through the air lock grommet to do the MLF. I can worry less about oxygen and contamination that way. 

This year I did 4 buckets. I scheduled pickup of 2 Merlot at the end of August and then 2 Chardonnay around mid October. With other things going on this gave me plenty of time to get the Merlot racked to the secondary before having to worry about the Chardonnay.


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## WellingtonToad

@1d10t don't get me wrong, I haven't given up on temp control. I am just suggesting that there is a lot more to know. 
I make wine from grapes. Cab sav or Shiraz. 
Your set up is interesting, but I can't see how I would set it up. I think I need to punch down the cap or at least do a pump over to get as much as I can from the grapes. 
I Typically get a 3degree variation between centre of must to my temp probe. It is just a case of live with it. 
Thereis one other concern on my mind. I keep reading about a conflict between alcohol content and berry flavour. The higher the alcohol the lower the berry flavour. 
Wine making is all about balance. Maybe I am just a bit hot on the alcohol. 
There is so much to know.


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## Ajmassa

15%-30% pulling- saignee style is intriguing. Concentrating the wine and getting a rose out of it too? Win/win. Definitely doing this. 

Tho not always the case. It wouldn’t have mattered much on my cab last year. Can’t get color if there’s no color to give. My Paso Robles grapes were a sorry excuse for a cab. Silly me assumed high price = high quality. Was very frustrating when planning all year and selecting what you think will be nice quality grapes. High ph is expected, but lacking color, brix and acid? Fughetaboutit 
All the little tricks of the trade are great. But when push comes to shove the fruit quality is everything. I’m fine tho. Really. Totally over it. [emoji16]
West coasters probably wouldn’t understand.


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## CDrew

Ajmassa said:


> West coasters probably wouldn’t understand.



?

I'd say, we understand perfectly. Even living in the middle of it, access to small lots of premium grapes is still a chore. If I wanted 5 tons, I could have them tomorrow morning 7 am, but when you want 500 pounds or less, you have fewer options. Great fruit is still great fruit. I have found that you need to be opportunistic. Often I won't know until Thursday night, what grapes I'll get on Saturday morning. It's both fun and a bit of a lottery feeling thing. You hear about some nice grapes available, jump on them that day. Pick them yourself if you need to. It's why I've been hesitant to make a large amount of a single variety. What if you got a looser? Then you'd have nothing.

I will say that you folks back east pay a lot more for grapes than we do, but refrigerated transportation of perishable grapes costs money, and so you have to pay a premium.


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## jsbeckton

I’m new to wine but have spent 10 years trying to emulate my favorite Belgian beers. On my scale I have the ability to control temperature and water profiles that are said to be “the key” but I’ve never come close to perfecting. 

On that note though, many of the worlds best breweries maintain their own proprietary yeast strains. I’m convinced that is a big part of the puzzle. I wonder if the same is true for wineries or if they are using yeast strains that are commonly available?

Here’s to continuing to chase the dragon though!


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## Scooter68

Not knocking what you are doing Folks - but Now I know I'm doing the right thing for me personally. I could never devote the time and money for traditional wines(Grape wines). That and the fact that "Fruit Wines" are virtually impossible to find makes me happy that I have limited my efforts to wines for which there are not commercial equivalents (Other than Plum).

Sounds like a lot of great work by you folks and I certainly applaud you and appreciate your comments on my questions. Cheers to you all and hope your ventures are successful.

My initial interest was sparked because I looked online and locally and could not find the very fruit wines I like - Apple was the primary spark - simple?? Nope, even when I found it, laws prevent shipping of the wine. So... Make my own. 

The dedication so many of you have to trying to meet or exceed your commercial wines is impressive. This is a hobby where that is not an easy task compared to say Woodworking where high quality furniture and other wood products are no longer readily available. Both hobbies often take locally produced raw materials and transform them into outstanding products. Wine making is, however; loaded with so many variables that you have to understand and control to produce that high end result. (Woodworkers - I'm not denigrating us either, I do both)

Again thanks for taking the time to let us know how much effort you put into your wine making.


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## Ajmassa

Fair point on the fruit wine. But for me It really has no bearing on commercial wines readily available. I love making wine. And I love grape wine. Not about $. Or availability. 
It’s because I enjoy it. And enjoy striving to improve, adding new tools or ideas to the toolbox. And always learning. 

take that cab I referenced. It’s by no means a bad wine. Just not what I was going for. I can barrel it to add some umph. Or Make another to blend it. Or leave it be. Adapting and troubleshooting as needed just comes with the territory. And still very much enjoyable. 


Btw @CDrew the west coaster thing was not meant seriously [emoji16]


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## jgmillr1

NorCal said:


> the cost associated with buying a chilling unit is beyond the hobby level.



Not necessarily. My first chiller was a small industrial unit I bought off eBay for $350. Excellent temp control. Worked great and could even cold stabilize a 200gal insulated tank given enough time. I still use it for heating up frozen or refrigerated fruit when I get it.

Here is a similar one you could buy now:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-A-CW-520...9ce20:g:irgAAOSwc5JdrTmu:sc:Other!46031!US!-1


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## jgmillr1

NorCal said:


> My goal is to make a $5 bottle of wine that will stand up to the local $25+ commercial wines that I like



Keep in mind that those retail-priced $25 commercial wines also cost $5 or less for the winery to make (plus overhead, of course). While considering how great some of the commercial wines are, also don't forget the number of "meh" wines you've bought off the shelves.

My $0.02 for the things that differentiate amateur vs. commercial wines, in rough order of importance:

Knowledge of proper winemaking techniques. (Serious winemakers like @NorCal clearly have this one down) 
Proper dosage of ingredients based on the volume you working with.


Knowing what to do and when to do it (pressing, nutrients, oxygen elimination, etc...)

Knowing how to quickly spot and resolve issues (H2S, astringency, too hot/cold, etc...)
Record keeping
Experience in managing the wide variety of grape chemistry you get year to year and vineyard to vineyard
Close relationships with vineyards to ensure quality fruit is picked at the desired time
Cleaning and sanitation protocols

Having quality equipment (this is where more space and money go than most amateurs have to play with)

Stainless vessels & oak barrels vs. Brute trash cans & oak chips
Pumps, presses, filters, bottling equipment that efficiently process the wine while minimizing oxygen exposure
Lab equipment and the knowledge of using it to measure pH, TA, SO2, brix, etc...
Temperature control
Inert gas sparging
Separation of production and aging spaces with their own environmental controls

Volume and breadth of production (This is where it is hard for amateurs to compete with the scale of commercial operations)

Large batch sizes in large tanks ensures uniformity and minimizes oxygen exposure
Large variety of batches allows for blending out faults and insufficiencies while blending in complexity and depth to the wine

Having known many winemakers around here, once you get them talking candidly they will gripe about how their own batches turned out also. You will always be your own worst critic. Complacency will never improve your wine, so we all strive to critique and improve what we do. Keep on brewing.


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## JoP

NorCal said:


> My goal is to make a $5 bottle of wine that will stand up to the local $25+ commercial wines that I like. This is my 7th vintage and below are the conclusions that I have reached, what I have tried and what I am trying.
> 
> I believe my wines would will stand up (blind tasting of knowledgeable people) against the average and below wineries in our area. The same cannot be said versus the top wineries in our area. I recently opened up a bottle from my favorite winery in the area and said to myself, $*#@#, why can't I make wine that taste like this.
> 
> The difference I find is the depth and breadth of flavors I get from these excellent commercial wines.
> 
> I believe that the biggest differentiating factor for me the ability to control fermentation temperature, which has been discussed before. Their ability to cold soak, slow fermentation and do extended maceration after fermentation has been completed is where the depth and breath of flavors are being extracted from the grapes.
> 
> Since I'm making 100-200 gallons per year, the cost associated with buying a chilling unit is beyond the hobby level. So, this is what I've done and this is what I'm trying to elevate the quality of my wines.
> 
> *Blending* - I find myself leaning on Petite Sirah and Petit Verdot more and more as a means to bring color, tannin and depth to my wines. It has made my Cab Sauv and Cab Franc's much better wines.
> 
> *Slowing Fermentation* - I've tried fermenting in my cold box (65-69 degrees), frozen milk cartons and this year adding 50%-70% of the yeast that is called for. Fortunately this year, grapes were late, so we naturally had cooler ambient temps and my fermentations were 10-12 days vs the typical 7
> 
> *Free Run* - This year I kept the free run cab franc separate from the pressed cab franc. The freerun has much more of the varietal flavor than the pressed wine. I used a much higher percentage of the free run wine in this year's barrel.
> 
> *Slow to Press* - Even though the brix level hit 0, I let it sit an extra day / day and a half. The weather was cooler than usual and I may be flirting with spoilage opportunities, but I was willing to take the chance.
> 
> *Saignee* Pulling 15%-30% of the juice out of a red ferment
> 
> Anything else you can think of?


Hi NorCal,
I wonder how realistic is to try to make a high quality wine for 5 dollars a bottle?
Do you buy your grapes, or do you have your own vineyard?
Even if you buy the grapes, do you factor in the cost of the work you put in?
Not to mention the automated and streamlined process a commercial winery has, as well as the high volume of output that lowers the overall cost.
Anyway, if you succeed, let us know.
In my case, I make about 35 gallons of Cab every year from my own grapes and it doesn't come inexpensive.
If you factor in all the expenses with the vineyard maintenance such as pruning, spraying, fertilizing, weeding by hand (if you don't want to use pesticides), picking, crushing, pressing and all the aditives, plus the wine making , it will come out to not less than 20 dollars per bottle in my case.
Some times you can't put a price on a hobby you enjoy so much.
Good luck!


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## NorCal

jgmillr1 said:


> Not necessarily. My first chiller was a small industrial unit I bought off eBay for $350. Excellent temp control. Worked great and could even cold stabilize a 200gal insulated tank given enough time. I still use it for heating up frozen or refrigerated fruit when I get it.
> 
> Here is a similar one you could buy now:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-A-CW-520...9ce20:g:irgAAOSwc5JdrTmu:sc:Other!46031!US!-1



Thermodynamics has never been a strong suit, so I’d struggle to determine if something this small could change the mass I would be fermenting, when I needed it, in any significant way. Great idea that warrants further investigation.


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## sour_grapes

NorCal said:


> Thermodynamics has never been a strong suit



I hear ya!! Same for me.

If I have done this calculation correctly, the cited 1400 W cooling capacity of the unit @jgmillr1 has cited would translate to 4777 BTU/hr. This means that, ideally, every hour, you could reduce the temperature of 600 gallons of must (~4800 lbs) about 1deg F.


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## jgmillr1

sour_grapes said:


> This means that, ideally, every hour, you could reduce the temperature of 600 gallons of must (~4800 lbs) about 1deg F.



And even that could be enough to keep up with the heat produced during fermentation, if that is the goal. For cold stabilization, it would take couple days to get down to temp. Definitely the tortoise in the race.

It all comes down to using the right tools for the job at hand and the budget.

If you go the small industrial chiller route, just be sure the lower temp range is where you'd want it. I stabilize my wines at 24-26'F set point on the chiller. I had to follow the chiller manual to switch a jumper and adjust the refrigerant low pressure cut off point to achieve this. Be sure to use propylene glycol (food grade) rather than ethylene glycol.


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## mainshipfred

JoP said:


> Hi NorCal,
> I wonder how realistic is to try to make a high quality wine for 5 dollars a bottle?
> Do you buy your grapes, or do you have your own vineyard?
> Even if you buy the grapes, do you factor in the cost of the work you put in?
> Not to mention the automated and streamlined process a commercial winery has, as well as the high volume of output that lowers the overall cost.
> Anyway, if you succeed, let us know.
> In my case, I make about 35 gallons of Cab every year from my own grapes and it doesn't come inexpensive.
> If you factor in all the expenses with the vineyard maintenance such as pruning, spraying, fertilizing, weeding by hand (if you don't want to use pesticides), picking, crushing, pressing and all the aditives, plus the wine making , it will come out to not less than 20 dollars per bottle in my case.
> Some times you can't put a price on a hobby you enjoy so much.
> Good luck!



This sometimes comes up as a debate but I never consider my time when I'm doing something as a hobby or daily chore. When I play golf the cost is the greens fee and not the 4 hours it takes to play or time get there. Similarly when making dinner the cost is the cost of food not the prep time, etc. If it's your lively hood or it takes from your lively hood then you time should be taken into consideration. Just my opinion.


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## NorCal

JoP said:


> Hi NorCal,
> I wonder how realistic is to try to make a high quality wine for 5 dollars a bottle?
> Do you buy your grapes, or do you have your own vineyard?
> Even if you buy the grapes, do you factor in the cost of the work you put in?
> Not to mention the automated and streamlined process a commercial winery has, as well as the high volume of output that lowers the overall cost.
> Anyway, if you succeed, let us know.
> In my case, I make about 35 gallons of Cab every year from my own grapes and it doesn't come inexpensive.
> If you factor in all the expenses with the vineyard maintenance such as pruning, spraying, fertilizing, weeding by hand (if you don't want to use pesticides), picking, crushing, pressing and all the aditives, plus the wine making , it will come out to not less than 20 dollars per bottle in my case.
> Some times you can't put a price on a hobby you enjoy so much.
> Good luck!


I’m talking all costs except for my time. I make 100-200 gallons per year. I buy grapes from local commercial and private vineyards, new bottles, corks, capsules, label, barrel/oak, electricity to store, etc. All in, it’s under $5 per bottle.


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## CabSauv

In addition to what you already seemed to identify to help bring out the depth, have you considered doing a smaller batch than what's called for in the recipe - meaning run off 10% or so of the juice? Maybe it's not that simple or I am too new to winemaking but it seems like a simple addition to what you're already doing and may help quite a bit?


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## sour_grapes

CabSauv said:


> In addition to what you already seemed to identify to help bring out the depth, have you considered doing a smaller batch than what's called for in the recipe - meaning run off 10% or so of the juice? Maybe it's not that simple or I am too new to winemaking but it seems like a simple addition to what you're already doing and may help quite a bit?



NorCal did put in his original list:



> *Saignee* Pulling 15%-30% of the juice out of a red ferment



Is this what you had in mind, or something different?


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## jburtner

What kind of temp ranges and timeframes might you want to complete AF and extended maceration? At lower temps and slower AF is oxidation more of a concern due to less CO2 and do we need to also consider NO2 blanketing the must? I could be talked into a dedicated tank and glycol unit for this kind of protocol if it produces significantly better product... I've been looking at CD's for next fall, a bladder press, and larger tank options. I think oak adjuncts are fine and you can take apart a barrel and toast the staves yourself for better oakonomy.

Cheers!
-jonny


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## CabSauv

sour_grapes said:


> NorCal did put in his original list:
> 
> Is this what you had in mind, or something different?



Nope, that was it. I must have missed it.


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## 1d10t

@NorCal Put this on your list yet? 


CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — A dozen bottles of fine French wine arrived at the space station Monday, not for the astronauts, but for science.

The red Bordeaux wine will age for a year up there before returning to Earth. Researchers will study how weightlessness and space radiation affect the aging process. The goal is to develop new flavors and properties for the food industry.

https://apnews.com/a1f6e241e7324ba7ab4ee1a05ddf39f8


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## NorCal

1d10t said:


> @NorCal Put this on your list yet?
> 
> 
> CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — A dozen bottles of fine French wine arrived at the space station Monday, not for the astronauts, but for science.
> 
> The red Bordeaux wine will age for a year up there before returning to Earth. Researchers will study how weightlessness and space radiation affect the aging process. The goal is to develop new flavors and properties for the food industry.
> 
> https://apnews.com/a1f6e241e7324ba7ab4ee1a05ddf39f8



I bet the wine is out of this world.


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## mainshipfred

jburtner said:


> What kind of temp ranges and timeframes might you want to complete AF and extended maceration? At lower temps and slower AF is oxidation more of a concern due to less CO2 and do we need to also consider NO2 blanketing the must? I could be talked into a dedicated tank and glycol unit for this kind of protocol if it produces significantly better product... I've been looking at CD's for next fall, a bladder press, and larger tank options. I think oak adjuncts are fine and you can take apart a barrel and toast the staves yourself for better oakonomy.
> 
> Cheers!
> -jonny



Extended maceration has always scared me a little so I never really tried it. The only thing I could recommend is whatever temperature you decide to go with make sure your yeast is compatible with it.


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## Chuck E

jburtner said:


> What kind of temp ranges and timeframes might you want to complete AF and extended maceration? At lower temps and slower AF is oxidation more of a concern due to less CO2 and do we need to also consider NO2 blanketing the must? I could be talked into a dedicated tank and glycol unit for this kind of protocol if it produces significantly better product... I've been looking at CD's for next fall, a bladder press, and larger tank options. I think oak adjuncts are fine and you can take apart a barrel and toast the staves yourself for better oakonomy.



What are "CD's"?


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## CDrew

Crusher-Destemmer?


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## 4score

My local favorite commercial winery is Runquist, in Amador. They make wines that always motivate me to try harder. The owner, Jeff Runquist, has been fairly open with me about his approach to his award-winning wines. His Barbera, for example. He told me the precise Brix (and pH) to harvest, combined with a slight water-back strategy. He gave us his pressing strength (gallons per pound) and crushing on top of fine oak chips. He was nice enough to give me a bucket or two of the very same chips he uses.

Temperature control is the biggest gap for us. As NorCal said, this year was the exception as things ran late and we got to ferment in nice cool weather (for a change).

I'm a big believer of trying a non-sacc yeast (engineered, not wild) and then switching over to a proven Saccharomyces yeast. I did this last season using Prelude yeast, followed by Avante. So far, there is a mouthfeel difference versus another barrel I did with just the Avante, but I still think we need more time to evaluate. Last season, we only let the Prelude go for the initial 3 or 4 Brix. This year, with our Cab, we went deep with the Prelude (from 26.5 to 7.5) before switching to Avante. Should be a good sample!

NorCal and I want to try a farm-to-bottle Franc-off next year. Perhaps a few other locals as well. All harvest from the same vineyard. Grab enough to make a carboy of wine and off you go. Let's try different (well documented) strategies and meet back in a year with your respective (non-blended) bottle of CF. Blind tastings and rankings. Winner gets the "pot"! (Pot tbd). Please don't give NorCal any more tips, just private message me!


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## jsbeckton

There is a website in the brewing community called ‘brulosophy’ where seasoned amateur home brewers do fairly ‘scientific’ experiments to put all of the things that homebrewers argue over to the test. They make a control batch and a test batch, then serve 20-30 people a triangle test of 2 control and 1 test beer and ask them if they can first pick the different beer. Then if they are correct they then ask which they prefer.

The results are pretty interesting and sometimes pretty unexpected. For the most part it seems that no single variable makes a significant different according to the data from the individual experiments. 

Some may say that means that all of these little things we obsess about don’t really matter as much as we think they do. I think that it might actually be that there is no one single ‘key’ that separates a great beer from a decent beer but rather it’s all the little things collectively that make the difference.

I often wish there was a similar website for wine making (let me know if I’m just not aware of it). Of course the turnaround time for beer is much faster and it can be made year round so I guess it’s a lot more practical than it would be for wine.


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## jburtner

Temp control seems achievable on a small scale even if a little pricey. Are slow ferments lasting multiple months for a red that much of a thing? Would it necessarily be the longer slower activity of the yeasties or more about the extended maceration? How about then raising the temp for another month+ to complete mlf?

Cheers!
-johann


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## CDrew

4score said:


> My local favorite commercial winery is Runquist, in Amador. They make wines that always motivate me to try harder.
> 
> NorCal and I want to try a farm-to-bottle Franc-off next year. Perhaps a few other locals as well. All harvest from the same vineyard. Grab enough to make a carboy of wine and off you go. Let's try different (well documented) strategies and meet back in a year with your respective (non-blended) bottle of CF. Blind tastings and rankings. Winner gets the "pot"! (Pot tbd). Please don't give NorCal any more tips, just private message me!



Runquist is a favorite of mine too. He is unapologetic about not being a grower, but makes really great wines from grapes he buys from other vineyards, which he typically names on the bottle. I've been a wine club member there for years. I'd like to be included in the 1 pick, 1 carboy competition.

I'm interested in the Prelude concept too, but not sure I'm brave enough to go there yet.


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## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> Runquist is a favorite of mine too. He is unapologetic about not being a grower, but makes really great wines from grapes he buys from other vineyards, which he typically names on the bottle. I've been a wine club member there for years. I'd like to be included in the 1 pick, 1 carboy competition.
> 
> I'm interested in the Prelude concept too, but not sure I'm brave enough to go there yet.



I used WLP603 Torolaspora delbrueckii on my Lodi Zin this year. It's a co-inoculation of two Saccharomyces strains & Torolaspora delbrueckii. It's really too early to say for sure, but I detect a fuller body in this young wine. I would like try the sequential Prelude to Avante next season.


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## Chuck E

4score said:


> My local favorite commercial winery is Runquist, in Amador. They make wines that always motivate me to try harder. The owner, Jeff Runquist, has been fairly open with me about his approach to his award-winning wines. His Barbera, for example. He told me the precise Brix (and pH) to harvest, combined with a slight water-back strategy. He gave us his pressing strength (gallons per pound) and crushing on top of fine oak chips. He was nice enough to give me a bucket or two of the very same chips he uses.
> 
> Temperature control is the biggest gap for us. As NorCal said, this year was the exception as things ran late and we got to ferment in nice cool weather (for a change).



I'd have to say that I think I could engineer a small scale jacketed SS tank for temperature control. But it would not be cheap. It's probably $2000 just for the heater/chiller unit...


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## stickman

@NorCal all of the variables being discussed here is what has kept me making wine for 29 years. Once you have good fruit and you're making wine without any major flaws, you start to make stylistic choices to dial-in the final wine you are trying to achieve. Of all the things being discussed, extended maceration can have a major impact, but the impact can be positive or negative depending the grapes, how it's done, and what you are looking to achieve. Unfortunately with any treatment it takes so long to determine what the end result might be. I did a few batches a number of years ago and the following is from my notes.

2002, 70% Sonoma Cab, 30% Napa Merlot, initial combined brix 24.5, pH 3.4, RC212, 1/2 lb Hungarian oak cubes, fermentation peaked at 87F and the cap was punched for 12 days, heavy mil plastic was put on top of the cap followed by an MDF circle and another plastic sheet over the top of the vat, co2 was used daily to purge the space between the plastic sheets. The skins were gently pushed into the liquid daily for a total of 39 days of skin contact. The wine was pressed and put into a 30gal French oak barrel for 12 months, and the usual ML and sulfite/racking treatments applied. This wine ended up too tannic and undrinkable for 5 years, I still have this in the cellar and it is enjoyable now, but still has a tannic edge. I'm certain I didn't press this wine at the right time, it was just an experiment and you have no choice but to accept the results. I open a bottle occasionally and it is a great conversation piece for those who enjoy wine.

2003, Lodi Petite Sirah (Caterina Label), no brix or pH recorded, 85F peak, punched 8 days, 18 days on skins total, finish details similar to above. I have one bottle of this wine left, it was dark with very nice fruit and tannin, it was a favorite of friends and family at the time.

2003, 70% Sonoma Syrah, 30% Mendocino Carignane, initial combined brix 24.9, pH 3.65, RC212, 1/2 lb Hungarian oak cubes, Color Pro enzyme, fermentation peak cap 88F wine 82F, punched cap 8 days, 19 days total skin contact, finish details similar to above, still several bottles and magnums left in the cellar, this wine was absolutely massive and undrinkable when young, probably the most complex and extracted wine I've made to date, a friend describes it as the "cigar wine", there is a core of fruit but still surrounded by tannin, another enjoyable conversation piece for fellow winemakers but not for the general population.

Not enough data to draw many conclusions, but the Lodi fruit that I've had over the years always seemed to have less tannin overall, so it may simply be more forgiving during extended maceration. I understand more about wine now then I did at the time, so I may do another extended maceration with a greater focus on the exact press time, you have to be available to act when the time is right and not wait for the weekend.

Also add to the list for consideration:

10% to 20% whole cluster fermentation

Lees contact during bulk aging


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## NorCal

I made a plea to the owner and winemaker, see below. It’s been a week and no response. I’m on a first name bases with both of them, so it’s not like a cold call. I’ll let you know if I get the meeting. 

_
XXXXX, YYYYY,

Grant (_they both know Grant) _introduced me to wine making in 2013 and I got hooked and have been making wine out of the garage ever since. Me and my little group have gone on to make some pretty good wines, having won golds, double golds and two best in classes at the CA State Fair.

I feel we have plateaued in what we can do with the equipment and knowledge we have and collectively we would like some advice on how to continue to improve. We won't ask you to sample any of our wine (unless you want to), but rather discuss areas of wine making that we are not strong in. 

Examples:
How important is cold soak, extended maceration?
How important is it to control fermentation temperature for duration and peak temperatures?
Are enzymes something that have a benefit to our local fruit?
Does leading with non-saccharomyces yeast result in a better wine?

We chose you two, because we feel you are the best winemakers in our area. We can meet when and where you would like and I'm thinking 45 minutes, 1 hour tops. We would like to make it worth you while, we can bring lunch, dinner or buy a case of wine. If either one or both of you would be willing, that would be great.

Please let me know if you are interested,
Ken_


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## bshef

You folks in California have the premier enology program in the country at UC Davis. I would suggest contacts there or enrolling in the program. Alternatively for anyone that is really interested, an internship as a winemaker. I’m not sure 45 minutes or an hour with a winemaker will be a lot of help. Anyway, good luck.


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## NorCal

bshef said:


> You folks in California have the premier enology program in the country at UC Davis. I would suggest contacts there or enrolling in the program. Alternatively for anyone that is really interested, an internship as a winemaker. I’m not sure 45 minutes or an hour with a winemaker will be a lot of help. Anyway, good luck.


Thanks for the reply. We are 30 minutes away from UCD and three of the winemakers in our area are graduates, including the one I’m targeting. I think the 45 minutes would provide direction on what would be worth our time to explore.


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## stickman

I don't think there is a better way to improve your results than talking to a professional that uses the same fruit and makes the wine in the style you desire. Most of us know the "standard" red wine procedures, crush, ferment, punch it, press, rack, barrel ML, rack so2, rack so2 etc., and this is fine to get a new winemaker started, but that procedure doesn't discuss wine style and assumes that all fruit is the same, which we know isn't true. I think the details are everything with respect to the fruit you have and the style you're trying to achieve.


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## bshef

Stickman and NorCal, That’s what I’m getting at but I get more from doing than talking. Volunteering, internships and such have given me more I sight than talking to winemakers. Maybe that’s just my learning style. I’ve learned more in the actual harvest and processing than in weeks of talking or discussion.


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## NorCal

bshef said:


> Stickman and NorCal, That’s what I’m getting at but I get more from doing than talking. Volunteering, internships and such have given me more I sight than talking to winemakers. Maybe that’s just my learning style. I’ve learned more in the actual harvest and processing than in weeks of talking or discussion.


I’m there with you; I learn by doing. I just would like some direction on what their opinion is on what I should do next.


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## NorCal

It’s been a few weeks since I sent the email and no reply. 

However, I bumped into the owner/winemaker in a vineyard of all places. I wasn’t sure if I’d bring it up or not, as I felt that his no response was indicative of his interest in getting together. However, he apologized for not responding and said he’d get with his winemaker and find a time to get together! I’m not counting on hearing from him, but it leaves the door open to follow up with him after the holidays.

I also wanted to share that my Cab Franc barrel, that is pre-blended, copying a 100 point wine’s proportions is tasting excellent. I did all the elements that I outlined in the first post on the Cab Franc, which is 62% of the total wine.


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## Chuck E

I have been watching the "Wine Revealed" video series. It is now evident to me, that I will never be able to make a wine equal to a great commercial wine. @NorCal, @4score , and @CDrew all have the ability to visit the vineyards and know the grapes. I buy the grapes off a truck. I will never be able to know what I am getting. It's very disappointing... I feel like I'm a good winemaker, with good instincts and good technique: but without intimate knowledge of the farming of the fruit, I will never equal my goal of top wine.


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## CDrew

Chuck E said:


> I have been watching the "Wine Revealed" video series. It is now evident to me, that I will never be able to make a wine equal to a great commercial wine. @NorCal, @Boatboy24, and @CDrew all have the ability to visit the vineyards and know the grapes. I buy the grapes off a truck. I will never be able to know what I am getting. It's very disappointing... I feel like I'm a good winemaker, with good instincts and good technique: but without intimate knowledge of the farming of the fruit, I will never equal my goal of top wine.



But then your challenge is to make the best wine you can from the raw material you can get. It's still worthwhile and I'll bet in the end you'll have some excellent wine. I'm not expecting to make Opus 1 either! You said before you liked the Carnivore wine, and I'll bet you can make wine at least that good, and probably better.


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## Boatboy24

Chuck E said:


> I have been watching the "Wine Revealed" video series. It is now evident to me, that I will never be able to make a wine equal to a great commercial wine. @NorCal, @Boatboy24, and @CDrew all have the ability to visit the vineyards and know the grapes. I buy the grapes off a truck. I will never be able to know what I am getting. It's very disappointing... I feel like I'm a good winemaker, with good instincts and good technique: but without intimate knowledge of the farming of the fruit, I will never equal my goal of top wine.



I buy off a truck as well. Even the 'local' stuff that I'm fortunate enough to get through @mainshipfred, comes from multiple vineyards. We're not 100% sure of the source or quality, other than knowing that our nearby commercial winery uses the same grapes - we just get part of their order. In the end, all of us home winemakers are just working with whatever we can get, aside from the few that grow their own. Fortunately for most of us, we have access to decent to good quality produce and as long as we don't screw it up, have the opportunity to make some pretty good wine. Are we going to be able to reproduce a $100 Brunello? Never. And that's OK.


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## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> But then your challenge is to make the best wine you can from the raw material you can get. It's still worthwhile and I'll bet in the end you'll have some excellent wine. I'm not expecting to make Opus 1 either! You said before you liked the Carnivore wine, and I'll bet you can make wine at least that good, and probably better.



Yes, I can make a "Carnivore" type wine. And Thank You for cheering me up. I think we all put so much effort into making good wine, making the jump to really good takes more than good winemaking skills.


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## jpwatkins9

If you are fortunate, you may have a winery near you that grows some of their own grapes. We have the Texas Hill country within an hour or so drive and group to help pick. If I want any of the grapes, all I have to do is ask. I use a 6 gallon primary fermenter, so not taking much. The folks that run these winery’s around here love to have people come out and help with the harvest, and we visit enough to see the vines and the fruit develop during the year. Great fun. I have a Cabernet Sauvignon that I bottled this year after 18 months of bulk aging that looks and tastes good so far.


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## Steve Wargo

"Wine Revealed" is a good series, spending most of the time in Italy and neighboring Slovenia. That said many of the vineyard managers and winemakers interviewed on Wine Revealed basically the same things as other Wine Related documentaries. "The Wine Show" series on Hulu is a good watch if you focus on the vineyards and winemakers they visit and interview. "People Of The Vines" is a good vineyard related series that I watched on Amazon.


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## Steve Wargo

Chuck E said:


> I have been watching the "Wine Revealed" video series. It is now evident to me, that I will never be able to make a wine equal to a great commercial wine. @NorCal, @4score , and @CDrew all have the ability to visit the vineyards and know the grapes. I buy the grapes off a truck. I will never be able to know what I am getting. It's very disappointing... I feel like I'm a good winemaker, with good instincts and good technique: but without intimate knowledge of the farming of the fruit, I will never equal my goal of top wine.



https://www.44wineries.com/ not too far from Chicago. You should visit the vineyard. It might change your mind


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## NorCal

The meeting with one of the top commercial winemakers in our area is scheduled for Friday!

@4score and I are gathering our questions, but if you have any you would like asked, list them here and I'll include them.


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## mainshipfred

NorCal said:


> The meeting with one of the top commercial winemakers in our area is scheduled for Friday!
> 
> @4score and I are gathering our questions, but if you have any you would like asked, list them here and I'll include them.



_Immediately the first thing that comes to mind is how much emphasis do they put on TA as opposed to pH. 

This is your original list, have you added anything to it? 
Examples:
How important is cold soak, extended maceration?
How important is it to control fermentation temperature for duration and peak temperatures?
Are enzymes something that have a benefit to our local fruit?
Does leading with non-saccharomyces yeast result in a better wine?_


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## montanarick

How about : Use of bentonite for protein removal - when and how to best use and dosage


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## Boatboy24

I'd be curious to know about their use of sulfite. Do they go with minimums recommended based on pH, or higher than that?


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## ibglowin

Here is an easy one. I am pretty sure most if not all wineries in WA State do not adjust the pH at all. If the grapes come in at the proper phenolic/physiological ripeness they go with it. Much the same growing conditions in your area of NOCAL maybe even hotter. Do they mess with what Mother Nature brought them?


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## Rocky

Why would we want to make our homemade wines taste as bad as commercial wines?


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## Chuck E

Rocky said:


> Why would we want to make our homemade wines taste as bad as commercial wines?



I want to make the best wine possible on a small scale. If I can duplicate the techniques of the best Napa wineries, that has to improve my wine; don't you think?


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## mainshipfred

Rocky said:


> Why would we want to make our homemade wines taste as bad as commercial wines?



To me commercial is a relative term. Of course there are the large commercial wineries that turn out hundreds of thousands of cases a year that probably have several winemakers that never touch the wine, but then there are the boutique wineries which are also considered commercial but actually have a winemaker that is hands on through the entire process. I'm not sure but I believe this is the type of winery and winemaker @NorCal is referring to.


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## NorCal

Rocky said:


> Why would we want to make our homemade wines taste as bad as commercial wines?



Good point, "commercial" is a broad statement. Since most commercial wines are sold for under $9 and while there are some good ones, there are a lot of bad ones. I want to make a the quality of wines that my favorite, local winery makes. I can get the same quality fruit that they do, but in blind tasting, I don't think my wines would fair well against them.

The winery sells into the $25-$35 category and I have seen their winery grow a lot in the past 5 years. The owner/winemaker is passionate with intense attention to detail and the hired winemaker is a UCD grad and has really improved their wines since joining them around 5 years ago. They have plenty of 90+ point wine enthusiast, wine spectator wines and have done well at SF Chronicle event as well. They are the only wine club I belong to and I shake my head when I drink their wine, saying, why can't my wines taste like this. @4score have a list of 46 questions right now, so we are going to have to figure out how to make the session flow, without it being a big question answer session, while still getting the answers to the questions we want to ask.


----------



## NorCal

ibglowin said:


> Here is an easy one. I am pretty sure most if not all wineries in WA State do not adjust the pH at all. If the grapes come in at the proper phenolic/physiological ripeness they go with it. Much the same growing conditions in your area of NOCAL maybe even hotter. Do they mess with what Mother Nature brought them?



I will ask. The grapes from our area tend to be out of balance pH wise. I make Cab Franc out of the same grapes they make their Cab Franc out of. I dump a pound of tartaric acid in every bin (1,000 pounds) of Cab Franc I make, to bring the starting pH closer to 3.6-3.7, from 3.9-4.0


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## Rocky

Guys, please! I posted that in jest. (For some reason I can't get emojis to work consistently on my posts or you all would have understood that.)

I know what NorCal means and what he is trying to do and I applaud his efforts. I am also sure that his wines are much better than the credit he gives them. I know this, a. because he is an old car guy (like I used to be with my Packard's), b. because I read his posts which are invariably accurate and sensible and c. because anyone who could restore that 'Stang like that has to be a perfectionist. In the patois of the classic car hobby, he is not trying to make just a "driver," rather he is going for Pebble Beach.


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## 1d10t

Would they let you hang around if you managed to get some vacation days at the right time/times?


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## NorCal

1d10t said:


> Would they let you hang around if you managed to get some vacation days at the right time/times?


You would think it would be that easy, but not in California where you cannot volunteer for a for-profit business. It is hard to believe, but it's true (article). 

Thanks @Rocky for your impression of my capabilities, but I truly feel like I'm still on the wine making learning curve and that I should be producing better wines than I am, with the fruit that I have available. I feel like I can make wine that is clean and free of faults, but I don't see them winning 90+ points from a major review source. Hopefully I'll gain some info to close the gap between where I am and the commercial quality wine I aspire to make.


----------



## Johnd

Chuck E said:


> I want to make the best wine possible on a small scale. If I can duplicate the techniques of the best Napa wineries, that has to improve my wine; don't you think?



I subscribe to the theory. You can learn to make wine without flaws, and you can duplicate many of the techniques, the hardest part is getting your hands on the fruit. Some techniques may be a bit of a stretch if costly equipment is involved, carbonic maceration comes to mind. 

One of my favorite wineries is Del Dotto, I’m using the same yeast and barrels that they do for some of their cabs, but couldn’t weasel much more info about their production process, there are so many other variables to consider. Without the fruit, whether it’s from the best areas of CA, or WA, or OR, it’s hard to duplicate superior results. I’m satisfied making the best wine I can from the fruit I am able to get, at least for now....


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## mainshipfred

NorCal said:


> You would think it would be that easy, but not in California where you cannot volunteer for a for-profit business. It is hard to believe, but it's true (article).
> 
> Thanks @Rocky for your impression of my capabilities, but I truly feel like I'm still on the wine making learning curve and that I should be producing better wines than I am, with the fruit that I have available. I feel like I can make wine that is clean and free of faults, but I don't see them winning 90+ points from a major review source. Hopefully I'll gain some info to close the gap between where I am and the commercial quality wine I aspire to make.



That's interesting, I often help out at wineries as do many others. I wonder if Virginia has the same law.


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## NorCal

We had our meeting. It FAR exceeded my expectations.

There were 4 home winemakers, the owner/winemaker and the hired UCD winemaker. We were there for a total of 3 hours and included tasting all their wines and the owner/winemaker tasting ours. There is a lot of information and I want to gather everyone’s collective thoughts/take aways and I won’t be able to do it until Monday.

Suffice it to say, I have a number of things that I know I can do that will make a substantial difference.


----------



## jburtner

That’s great news. Looking forward to reading your notes. 

Cheers!
-johann


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## Ajmassa

I smell a future editorial piece for winemaker mag.


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## Boatboy24

NorCal said:


> You would think it would be that easy, but not in California where you cannot volunteer for a for-profit business. It is hard to believe, but it's true (article).



Could you contract out for $1?


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> That's interesting, I often help out at wineries as do many others. I wonder if Virginia has the same law.



I'd be surprised. There are a ton of places that wouldn't get harvest done if it weren't for volunteers. Granted, the volunteers usually eat and drink fairly well when the work is done, but they certainly aren't paid.


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## NorCal

Boatboy24 said:


> Could you contract out for $1?


 CA requires min wage $12, going up $1 hr each year for the next 3 years. Love the weather, not fond of the politics.


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## bshef

The federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) prohibits employees from volunteering at a for profit business. So how does all that work in Virginia? It can get complicated. The vineyard on a farm winery may be an agricultural entity that sells grapes to the winery. Depending on the number of employees on the farm, the farm may be exempt from the agricultural provisions of the FLSA. Some Virginia vineyards really rely heavily on volunteers. Others not so much or none at all. Virginia is heavily supporting agrotourism so it appears the state is not worrying about a little volunteerism. The feds are too understaffed to bother enforcing volunteerism by rich wine geeks when the minimum wage and overtime laws are ignored for folks earning $7.25 per hour. 
The California situation was the state of California enforcing the state minimum wage and overtime laws. That was not the feds. The feds are more concerned about migrant workers not being paid and being housed in hovels. 
This may change in Virginia. OSHA has started inspecting small wineries so who knows what is next?


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## Boatboy24

NorCal said:


> CA requires min wage $12, going up $1 hr each year for the next 3 years. Love the weather, not fond of the politics.



Sounds like you need a firm, fixed price contract with them.


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## 1d10t

NorCal said:


> CA requires min wage $12, going up $1 hr each year for the next 3 years. Love the weather, not fond of the politics.


There was some clarification a while back. "Intern" was widely abused. They are there to learn, not provide anything of value to the company. When I said 'hangout', that is what I meant. Just observe and ask questions. No running for coffee, picking up laundry, etc.  However, it sounds like you got what you wanted from your meeting? Maybe no need for that?


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## NCWC

Not sure of your age but here in Ohio if you are 60+ you can take up to 20 hours of a college course. There is Vesta which is online, take Cellar Operations, and you get to intern at a winery and learn 1st hand about Winemaking. I am in the Kent State enology program, but I am paying for the full course. I have a small winery in Cleveland, Ohio area. (1000-1500 gal) We put 3 wines in the SF Chronicle and just won a Double Gold, Gold, and Silver. The most important things I have learned are yeast selection, blending yeast, blending barrel types, blending varietals. Holding back 5-10 percent freerun in a carboy to blend in / at bottling for more fruit. Pre and Post must analysis. Proper fermentation temperatures like 80-90 for reds under 60 for whites. Enzymes to add for extraction of phenols, and color. Whites are way harder to make than reds for me at least. Many other small details that all add up to great wines.


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## MarkT

NorCal said:


> We had our meeting. It FAR exceeded my expectations.
> 
> There were 4 home winemakers, the owner/winemaker and the hired UCD winemaker. We were there for a total of 3 hours and included tasting all their wines and the owner/winemaker tasting ours. There is a lot of information and I want to gather everyone’s collective thoughts/take aways and I won’t be able to do it until Monday.
> 
> Suffice it to say, I have a number of things that I know I can do that will make a substantial difference.
> View attachment 58310




Casque is one of our favorite wineries. Which group are you in and is it open to newbies?


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## NorCal

@4score, @Busabill , 4Score's son and I first sat down at a local cafe with the owner/winemaker and the hired UCD winemaker and talked for a solid hour 15 minutes over lunch (we bought). We then went to the tasting room and tasted and discussed the wines (4 whites, 4 reds) they were pouring. After we were done tasting we asked if the owner/winemaker if he wouldn't mind tasting our wines, which he said yes. We had left them in the cars.

There was a lot of information discussed and it was in conversational mode, so it while we covered a lot of territory, it wasn't in the exact question/answer manner that I was thinking. So instead of listing the questions and answers, I'll list the takeaways from 3 of us.

#1 French oak rules for Bordeaux and Rhone wines.
#2 Aggressively adjust up-front, get below 3.6, add, check next day, add again
#3 Ability to control fermentation temperatures is the biggest gap, ice jugs, dry ice, insulated foam boards...or get a chiller
#4 Great fruit, long controlled ferments, French oak, purposeful blending, aging before releasing seems to be major focus areas
#5 More modest of SO2 adds, (get pH down!) not exceeding 200 total or feels like it strips wine

#1 Not necessary to rack as often as we do after gross lees removal
#2 Be more modest on the SO2 adds
#3 Do big adjustments pre-ferment if required
#4 Go long on MLF if necessary
#5 Keep an eye on cleanliness everywhere

#1 acid adjust to 3.4 or 3.5 before fermentation - don’t be afraid.
#2 might be worth playing with extended maceration...at least for a week or two.
#3 We use too much SO2, better to take the risk than over SO2.
#4 Keep it topped and limit rackings.
#5 Don’t be scared of new oak - always strong after a couple months, then it will integrate later
#6 Fruit flies suck and do a lot of damage to wine flavors
#7 Choose varietals we know grow well in our climate – Cab Sauv and most whites are a stretch

When asked what he saw as the biggest mistake made by home winemakers, he replied not keeping things sanitized.

The feedback on the wines we brought to taste (2017 Bordeaux Blend, 2018 Cab Franc, 2019 whole cluster press Tempranillo rose, 2018 Cab Franc) was good. His words were, "you don't need my advice, these wines are really good". He has told me my wine were not good in the past, so I trust that when he says he thought the wines are good that he means it.

Overall, I felt re-inspired to push my wine making to the next level. I really think either making less wine, so I can focus on things like fermentation control, or invest some money into equipment and maintain my 150 or so gallon per year scale.


----------



## 1d10t

NorCal said:


> #3 Ability to control fermentation temperatures is the biggest gap, ice jugs, dry ice, insulated foam boards...or get a chiller


What temps?


----------



## Ajmassa

Fantastic stuff here!! Really top notch. Very much appreciate you sharing all of this info with us. I’ll be making some changes based off this thread now. 
I’ve been naturally gravitating to a lot of these techniques already. The modest so2, minimal racking during aging, letting MLF run longer etc. 
The temp control is something I haven’t entertained yet. But if frozen jugs can get me more days on the skins and the pros say it’s worth doing then think I should give it a shot. 
The Biggest takeaway by far for me is the acid adjusting. Very reassuring to hear it. This was my plan going into my last batch too. Was gonna go to 3.6 come hell or high water! But Come game time I wimped out! Was hesitant to overdo it with 4.0 must. My addition barely made a dent. 

Now that’s I know its ok to be aggressive I will be doing exactly what was suggested. Shooting for under 3.6. check next day and adjust again. 
Thanks @NorCal @4score


----------



## NorCal

Cold soak below fermentation temps, in the 50’s, bringing up the temp when it’s time to ferment.


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## Boatboy24

Thanks so much for this. Fascinating comments regarding the aggressive adjustments up front. I think a lot of us are afraid to do too much and therefore end up with wines that aren't quite what they could have been. 

A little confused on this comment regarding sulfite: _"#5 More modest of SO2 adds, (get pH down!) not exceeding 200 total or feels like it strips wine"_. I hope that's not saying don't exceed 200ppm.


----------



## NorCal

Boatboy24 said:


> Thanks so much for this. Fascinating comments regarding the aggressive adjustments up front. I think a lot of us are afraid to do too much and therefore end up with wines that aren't quite what they could have been.
> 
> A little confused on this comment regarding sulfite: _"#5 More modest of SO2 adds, (get pH down!) not exceeding 200 total or feels like it strips wine"_. I hope that's not saying don't exceed 200ppm.



The comment means, aggressively add acid up front to bring the pH down, so you don't need large SO2 adds through the life of the wine. He said, if you keep the pH down, where your target adds are 30, then you can keep total SO2 under 200ppm.


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## crushday

Awesome post!


----------



## Boatboy24

NorCal said:


> The comment means, aggressively add acid up front to bring the pH down, so you don't need large SO2 adds through the life of the wine. He said, if you keep the pH down, where your target adds are 30, then you can keep total SO2 under 200ppm.



200ppm sounds really high to me. Maybe not for commercial wines, but far more than I use for my own.


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## CDrew

Was there an upper limit addition of tartaric acid to achieve the desired pH?


----------



## cmason1957

The other interesting thing I read was homeworkers rack to often. I have sort of been thinking that same thing and am considering cutting back to every 6 or maybe even 9 months while bulk aging for longer.

And go long on MLF, the rush to get it under sulfite isn't a good thing.


----------



## NorCal

CDrew said:


> Was there an upper limit addition of tartaric acid to achieve the desired pH?


They use the same Cab Franc grapes from the same vineyard as I do. It regularly comes in 3.8 to 4.0 at 25.5/26 brix. I’ll add a pound of tartaric in the macrobin and it will drop the 1,000 pounds down .2 I’ve never dared going further than that, but I will this season, all the way down to 3.6, but in smaller increments than a pound at a time.


----------



## NorCal

cmason1957 said:


> The other interesting thing I read was homeworkers rack to often. I have sort of been thinking that same thing and am considering cutting back to every 6 or maybe even 9 months while bulk aging for longer.
> 
> And go long on MLF, the rush to get it under sulfite isn't a good thing.


I asked the winemaker if “wanting something to do” was a good reason to rack, he chuckled. My usual regime is press, let settle for a day or two, rack1. Let mlf complete in the barrel, rack2. Wait 3-4 months rack3. Right before bottling rack4. I think it’s safe to eliminate rack3. If I let it stay in the barrel for 18 months vs 11 months, maybe I’d do a rack3.

He really advocated keeping the barrel topped every 3 weeks, aiming for topping additions of 500 ml. If you are using more, top sooner, less stretch out the interval.


----------



## NorCal

Boatboy24 said:


> 200ppm sounds really high to me. Maybe not for commercial wines, but far more than I use for my own.


At 3.9 pH the target level is 74, which I’ve had a number of wines at. Wine in barrels eats up 2X as much SO2 as in glass, so I’ve hit 200 pretty easily on some of my wines. At 3.6 the target is only 38 ppm, thus the emphasis on making the big brave adjustment up front.


----------



## Dom Lausic

Wow! Thanks @NorCal, what a great post. So motivating and validating to get such feedback from an accomplished winemaker! Glad to hear it worked out better than anticipated!


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> 200ppm sounds really high to me. Maybe not for commercial wines, but far more than I use for my own.



I assume that meant 200ppm total so2 added over the course of the aging process. So x4 overall additions of around 30ppm keeps it reasonable at 120ppm
But my 3.9ph wine for instance, in bulk for 1.5 years, required over that cumulative 200ppm added throughout aging- maintaining a 70ppm free so2 level. Had I not been a wimp at crush it would eliminate the need to flirt with that so2 threshold. 
Seems like long term barrel aging would make keeping that number down difficult though.

*edit- ah my bad. didn’t mean to be redundant @NorCal.


----------



## NCWC

I rack about 24 hours after press then I ML. Then I rack in 3 weeks. Then in 3 weeks I rack to barrels and add SO2 but I store in barrels with a 25ppm of so2.
Make small acid adjustments (.1 .2 up or down) during barrel aging. Then I stage to bottle in a stainless steel tank and do final SO2 adjustment to what it should be normally around 50-60 ppm. You really don't need to go too much higher. Even if the wine is 4.0ph You are going to drink it in the next 5 years right. I have wine 10 years old and it is fine


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## ZebraB

Great info. Did he state what the target addition of SO2 for white wines or is the 30 for both red & white wines?


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> 200ppm sounds really high to me. Maybe not for commercial wines, but far more than I use for my own.



FWIW, I just weighed a few 1/4 tsp of K-meta and the average was 1.95 grams. Using Fermcalc with an initial SO2 of 0, 1.95 grams of K-meta and 6 gallons it took the SO2 to above 50 ppm. If one were to use the 1/4 tsp method and bulk aged for a year using every three months of racking and sulfiting it would be over 200 unless something changes when it becomes bound. This does not take into consideration pre ferment additions or that given off by fermentation itself. Again I'm not sure about what happens when it becomes bound.


----------



## NorCal

mainshipfred said:


> FWIW, I just weighed a few 1/4 tsp of K-meta and the average was 1.95 grams. Using Fermcalc with an initial SO2 of 0, 1.95 grams of K-meta and 6 gallons it took the SO2 to above 50 ppm. If one were to use the 1/4 tsp method and bulk aged for a year using every three months of racking and sulfiting it would be over 200 unless something changes when it becomes bound. This does not take into consideration pre ferment additions or that given off by fermentation itself. Again I'm not sure about what happens when it becomes bound.



Yes, we are talking total SO2 (not free SO2) not exceeding 200ppm, including any pre-fermentation additions. His point is that above that level that the sulfur additions influence the wines taste in a negative way. 

He did not speak specifically to whites, but with the pH, it would certainly be below the reds. Interesting to note that they barrel age their whites for 10 months, mostly neutral French oak.


----------



## mainshipfred

NorCal said:


> Yes, we are talking total SO2 (not free SO2) not exceeding 200ppm, including any pre-fermentation additions. His point is that above that level that the sulfur additions influence the wines taste in a negative way.
> 
> He did not speak specifically to whites, but with the pH, it would certainly be below the reds. Interesting to note that they barrel age their whites for 10 months, mostly neutral French oak.



I realize everyone doesn't have the means to measure SO2 but I always thought the 1/4 tsp method was an over kill. especially if aging in glass. As far as aging whites in barrels I posted in another thread I neutralized a barrel specifically for whites. I've had the Viognier in it for about 2.5 months and it's quite nice. As much as I would like to leave it there until spring I have another I would like put in so probably 3 months each. That is interesting though since except for Chardonny's I believe most wineries age their whites in SS.


----------



## mainshipfred

Did the topic of TA ever come up or do they only speak of pH.


----------



## 4score

NCWC said:


> Not sure of your age but here in Ohio if you are 60+ you can take up to 20 hours of a college course. There is Vesta which is online, take Cellar Operations, and you get to intern at a winery and learn 1st hand about Winemaking. I am in the Kent State enology program, but I am paying for the full course. I have a small winery in Cleveland, Ohio area. (1000-1500 gal) We put 3 wines in the SF Chronicle and just won a Double Gold, Gold, and Silver. The most important things I have learned are yeast selection, blending yeast, blending barrel types, blending varietals. Holding back 5-10 percent freerun in a carboy to blend in / at bottling for more fruit. Pre and Post must analysis. Proper fermentation temperatures like 80-90 for reds under 60 for whites. Enzymes to add for extraction of phenols, and color. Whites are way harder to make than reds for me at least. Many other small details that all add up to great wines.



Congratulations on your success at the San Francisco Chronicle Competition. That's fantastic.


----------



## 4score

Boatboy24 said:


> 200ppm sounds really high to me. Maybe not for commercial wines, but far more than I use for my own.


200 ppm isn't that high for me when trying to baby-sit 4.0 pH wine for > 18 months. We've been adjusting to 3.6 -3.7, but need to take our foot of the SO2 pedal a bit. 50 ppm was a common add. Going to aim for 20-30 going forward.


----------



## stickman

I previously posted part of an article about SO2 in this thread, it confirms much of what is being said about SO2 here. Several points were made in the article, but the primary one was that the molecular so2 charts shouldn't be followed with high pH wines; the recommendation is 20 to 30ppm free during bulk aging. The point about the 200ppm total so2 was also made.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/high-ph-after-mlf.70626/


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Did the topic of TA ever come up or do they only speak of pH.



I initially got the idea to adjust down to under 3.6 without regard for TA from that one interview on the winemaking podcast. Remember that? That winemaker was saying he still measures it at crush but doesn’t factor into his decision making at all. Even when questioned further he doubled down- “3.6 or under. No exceptions.” 
Now with multiple reliable sources I’m stoked to confidently make aggressive adjustments w/o second guessing it. 

Btw, since my NaOh expired year ago I haven’t replaced or tested TA at all and it’s been kinda nice.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> I initially got the idea to adjust down to under 3.6 without regard for TA from that one interview on the winemaking podcast. Remember that? That winemaker was saying he still measures it at crush but doesn’t factor into his decision making at all. Even when questioned further he doubled down- “3.6 or under. No exceptions.”
> Now with multiple reliable sources I’m stoked to confidently make aggressive adjustments w/o second guessing it.
> 
> Btw, since my NaOh expired year ago I haven’t replaced or tested TA at all and it’s been kinda nice.



I was just curious since all the commercial guys I know don't deal with TA.


----------



## stickman

I also posted a previous article regarding the TA issue. We have to keep in mind the context here, the type of grapes, and where the grapes are grown etc., more times than not, in California, the mature grapes that come in with high pH often are also high in potassium, so most of the tartaric acid added to achieve say a 3.6 pH, ends up eventually precipitating out as potassium bitartrate. This method, adjusting down to 3.5 to 3.6 pH when needed, has worked for me with grape must from California.

I don't have experience with grapes other than California or Washington, but reportedly some grapes can have issues with high malic acid causing the high pH, either because of the variety or because of cool climate and harvest conditions, under ripe fruit etc., in this case, adding acid to lower the pH would probably be the wrong thing to do.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I was just curious since all the commercial guys I know don't deal with TA.



Very interesting. I knew you were dialed into the scene down there but I didn’t realize you talked shop that far in detail. Or that the local Maryland winemakers are also not dealing with TA. I actually thought it was somewhat of a faux pas. Though it seems to be more status-quo then I realized. These guys in Amador, Sebastiani Vineyards & Winery in Sonoma, the Maryland winemakers etc etc.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Very interesting. I knew you were dialed into the scene down there but I didn’t realize you talked shop that far in detail. Or that the local Maryland winemakers are also not dealing with TA. I actually thought it was somewhat of a faux pas. Though it seems to be more status-quo then I realized. These guys in Amador, Sebastiani Vineyards & Winery in Sonoma, the Maryland winemakers etc etc.



I'm actually in Northern Virginia at the foot hills of the Blue Ridge and Bull Run Mountains.


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## Boatboy24

Thanks @NorCal, @mainshipfred, @Ajmassa, @4score, et al. I had 200ppm *free* in my head and just couldn't get my brain around that high a number. 200 in total makes so much more sense.


----------



## jsbeckton

NorCal said:


> Cold soak below fermentation temps, in the 50’s, bringing up the temp when it’s time to ferment.



Great stuff! Any mention on length of the cold soak or if they add any enzymes during this period? 

It was mentioned that fermentation temps were a big factor. Maybe I missed it but did they say what those temps were (only made not of the cold soak temp above).

Thanks again for passing all this great stuff on!


----------



## NorCal

mainshipfred said:


> I was just curious since all the commercial guys I know don't deal with TA.



I specifically asked about TA and he said that he knows what it is, because it comes on the panel from the lab, however he doesn’t take it into account when making pre-ferment adjustments, only pH.


----------



## NorCal

jsbeckton said:


> Great stuff! Any mention on length of the cold soak or if they add any enzymes during this period?
> 
> It was mentioned that fermentation temps were a big factor. Maybe I missed it but did they say what those temps were (only made not of the cold soak temp above).
> 
> Thanks again for passing all this great stuff on!


Cold soaks 3-5 days (that I remember) and I don’t recall discussing peak temps, only that they warm up to enable fermentation. Maybe @4score can recall if it was mentioned.


----------



## NCWC

Whites wines a lot less here is the table for red and white. I personally would never go over 63 no matter the pH.
Table
pH Desired So2
2.90 11
3.00 13
3.10 16
3.20 21
3.30 26
3.40 32
3.50 40
3.60 50
3.70 63
3.80 79
3.90 99
4.00 125


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## Rice_Guy

Just a thought but you may want some business cards with “consultant”


NorCal said:


> You would think it would be that easy, but not in California where you cannot volunteer for a for-profit business. It is hard to believe.


A very interesting thread! Glad you got in. THANKS!


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## jburtner

This is awesome and thanks for sharing! Interesting that no concern regarding TA was indicated. Was there an upper TA limit discussed at all WRT getting pH down to 3.6 range pre-AF?

Cheers,
johann


----------



## NorCal

jburtner said:


> This is awesome and thanks for sharing! Interesting that no concern regarding TA was indicated. Was there an upper TA limit discussed at all WRT getting pH down to 3.6 range pre-AF?
> 
> Cheers,
> johann



TA wasn't discussed, besides it not being a factor they take into account during their wine making. Perhaps this is due to the nature of the fruit in our region, where the fruit always ripens, but maintaining acidity is the challenge.


----------



## ZebraB

Question: Now that it has be suggested to target a lower SO2, how are you planning on implementing this? Since I am fairly new to wine making, I'm not sure how much goes away over time in a glass carboy. Do you target the high end for the PH and check every 3 months? Or put it slightly higher for insurance knowing free SO2 will go down over time? If the target adds are 30 for a 3.6 PH. Given that there is some SO2 from fermentation. (n of 1 = 13PPM) this puts it slightly above middle of the range. 

I have a white wine with 3.1 PH and is at 16PPM, so not sure when I should check again or if I should add some more since it is just 3 weeks from completing fermentation with many more months ahead. I definitely want to put the minimal amount of SO2 since it is my best batch so far. Any advise would be appreciated.


----------



## Rice_Guy

NorCal said:


> TA wasn't discussed,. . .Perhaps this is due to the nature of the fruit in our region, where the fruit always ripens, but maintaining acidity is the challenge.


 Did you just say you would like to import some of our wonderful northern grapes? 




ZebraB said:


> I have a white wine with 3.1 PH and is at 16PPM,


Oxygen is the enemy therefore I would let good enough alone, as in the meeting notes I try to minimize number of times I treat the wine.


----------



## NorCal

ZebraB said:


> Question: Now that it has be suggested to target a lower SO2, how are you planning on implementing this? Since I am fairly new to wine making, I'm not sure how much goes away over time in a glass carboy. Do you target the high end for the PH and check every 3 months? Or put it slightly higher for insurance knowing free SO2 will go down over time? If the target adds are 30 for a 3.6 PH. Given that there is some SO2 from fermentation. (n of 1 = 13PPM) this puts it slightly above middle of the range.
> 
> I have a white wine with 3.1 PH and is at 16PPM, so not sure when I should check again or if I should add some more since it is just 3 weeks from completing fermentation with many more months ahead. I definitely want to put the minimal amount of SO2 since it is my best batch so far. Any advise would be appreciated.



I plan on being mindful of what I have learned from this knowledgeable winemaker and the big takeaway on SO2 management was prevention; make the big acid adjustment up-front to prevent the need of adding 50+ ppm every time. I did a study a few years ago, where I kept track of how much SO2 dropped in different containers over a few vintages. Using a glass carboy, solid bung as the baseline, the FlexTank consumed 2X the SO2 and the 60 gallon barrel 4X the SO2 as the carboy. So where I was adding 10 in the carboy, I would need to add 20 in the flex and 40 in the barrel. For these reasons, I check the barrel every 8 weeks, Flextanks/Spiedels every 10 weeks and glass carboys every 12 weeks. I will target the high end of the addition scale on the front-end and taper to the low-end of the range as I approach bottling, keeping other factors in mind like the alcohol content, tannin and if I think the wine will be put away for a while.

I agree with @Rice_Guy , I would leave the white wine alone. You are at the top end already. Check again in 3 months.


----------



## NorCal

Rice_Guy said:


> Did you just say you would like to import some of our wonderful northern grapes?



Perhaps a blend? A 50% Northern Hybrid with some Sierra Foothills Petite Sirah / Petit Verdot. I bet that would make a decent wine. 

I usually make Petite Sirah and Petit Verdot each year for blending purposes with my Cab Franc or Cab Sauv. Last year I had extra of both so I bottled a few cases of 50% PS/50% PV. It is quite tannic and not drinkable at this point, but I think another 3 years or so, it may be approachable. However, if it had a lighter, lower brix blending partner, it could be quite the match.


----------



## Chuck E

Ss Brewtech has a 10 gallon, jacketed brite tank. At $550 that's pricey, but it means you could have total temperature control on a small scale. The small glycol heater/chiller is the key expensive component. I think we are looking at temps between 0 to 30C to take on "cold soaking" to optimal fermentation. I think this could be done for about $2 large.


----------



## jsbeckton

Chuck E said:


> Ss Brewtech has a 10 gallon, jacketed brite tank. At $550 that's pricey, but it means you could have total temperature control on a small scale. The small glycol heater/chiller is the key expensive component. I think we are looking at temps between 0 to 30C to take on "cold soaking" to optimal fermentation. I think this could be done for about $2 large.



Can do same thing with a cheap/used chest freezer and a temperature controller. I think the issue is more challenging for those making 1000# at a time.


----------



## mainshipfred

I use a chest freezer as well. It's only a 7 cuft and I wish I would have gotten the 10. I did raise the lid about a foot and build a removable shelf and can get four 6 gallon buckets in it easily.


----------



## Chuck E

@NorCal How big is your fermentation tank for red grapes?


----------



## jsbeckton

mainshipfred said:


> I use a chest freezer as well. It's only a 7 cuft and I wish I would have gotten the 10. I did raise the lid about a foot and build a removable shelf and can get four 6 gallon buckets in it easily.



I also made an immersion probe so I can control the must/wort temperature directly rather than try to infer what it must be based on air temp. Takes a lot of guess work out of it.

I only make ~10/gal at a time so should be really easy to soak @55 for 4-5 days then warm it up for fermentation.


----------



## ZebraB

If your interested in the Ss Brewtech has a 10 gallon, jacketed brite tank, there is a 15% off one item and they do offer the brewtech. Use code UPGRADE.

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ss-brewtech-brite-tank-10-gal-1

Since I just started,the old used craig's list refridge will have to work for now. But perhaps in the future ... I like the idea of minimizing the lifting in and out of the refridge


----------



## NorCal

Chuck E said:


> @NorCal How big is your fermentation tank for red grapes?


I ferment around 120 gallons of must at a time,.


----------



## jsbeckton

Was there any discussion of yeast? I now that many breweries maintain proprietary strains so was wondering if wineries do the same or if they are just using what is commercially available?


----------



## NorCal

jsbeckton said:


> Was there any discussion of yeast? I now that many breweries maintain proprietary strains so was wondering if wineries do the same or if they are just using what is commercially available?


There were a number of yeast mentioned, but all commercially available that you would use for Rhone and Bordeaux wines. Most their wines are made with multiple strains, including some non-sac yeasts.


----------



## Rice_Guy

The one commercial guy who is part of the Vinters club uses several yeast “to add complexity “.


jsbeckton said:


> Was there any discussion of yeast? I know that many breweries maintain proprietary strains so was wondering if wineries do the same or if they are just using what is commercially available?


Operating a micro lab with the ability to maintain pure culture is a dedicated operation, this would include periodically testing culture to make sure it was still doing what it was supposed to. Gallo might afford it but small guys couldn’t.
The brewery standard is reuse yeast five (?) times then regrow a starter from pure culture to minimize contamination/wandering genetics. Yes Miller has a micro department.


----------



## jsbeckton

Rice_Guy said:


> Operating a micro lab with the ability to maintain pure culture is a dedicated operation, this would include periodically testing culture to make sure it was still doing what it was supposed to. Gallo might afford it but small guys couldn’t.



I think that the mega breweries have micro labs but wouldn’t be surprised if the smaller ones just pay a lab to develop/maintain a strain that they use. It can make a big difference IMO as some of these breweries will publish their recipe but it’s hard to replicate without that yeast strain. Some go so far as to tell yo how to steal it from a bottle of their beer (Bells)!


----------



## mainshipfred

Rice_Guy said:


> The one commercial guy who is part of the Vinters club uses several yeast “to add complexity “.
> 
> Anything I make over 6 gallons gets 3 yeasts for added complexity. I'm still not to the point where I know which 3 work best together for the particular varietal. For now I first go with a recommended yeast for that varietal then see what profiles the different ones contribute. A lot of times it turns out to be an eenie meenie miney mo.


----------



## Rice_Guy

jsbeckton said:


> I think that the mega breweries have micro labs but wouldn’t be surprised if the smaller ones just pay a lab to develop/maintain a strain that they use. It can make a big difference IMO as some of these breweries will publish their recipe but it’s hard to replicate without that yeast strain. Some go so far as to tell yo how to steal it from a bottle of their beer (Bells)!


You are correct that suppliers are willing to "customize" a product in part since it hooks me on having only one supplier. I laugh since the start usually is marketing saying we wanted exactly like competitor "X".

With the winery manager from the club, he does not ferment a blended yeast. What he is looking for is the individual traits which can be produced with healthy individual yeast. For the equipment he has, this means primary is in tote sized HDPE and he is forced to combine when it goes to his secondary which is a floating lid Stainless. The Vinters club has gotten to taste the wine produced from several yeast selections on the same juice and they are different. I agree @mainshipfred when a yeast test is lined up on a table with a score sheet, it has felt like "an eenie meenie miney mo". 
We have a lot of variables besides the yeast, , , , , , I am still on the learning curve for making wine.


----------



## ZebraB

There is a good article on process of wine making for aromatics that showed up in my email today. It doesn't go into yeast but does state a lot about temperature and process and I will do a few tweaks #1) for white primary fermentation is done <60F and closed fermentation.

https://winemakermag.com/technique/wine-aromatics-techniques?mc_cid=8f64d0d090&mc_eid=dee720b3e1


----------



## MiBor

To me, this is the most interesting and informative thread on these forums so far. I am deeply thankful to @NorCal and all the other contributors for sharing this wealth of information with the rest of us. This thread made me think hard about my winemaking techniques and how I could improve the quality of my wines without spending a whole lot of money on professional equipment. I also decided to start getting ready early for next season so, after re-reading the thread for the 5th time, I came to the conclusion that temperature control is what would make a lot of difference in my winemaking. It would enable me to do longer cold soaks and extended maceration, as well as stretching the AF time to some degree. So I went and bought a refrigerated circulator with a digital control on eBay (Neslab RTE-111), and 100' of stainless steel tubing to make a custom heat exchanger in my insulated fermenter. I'm familiar with heated/refrigerated bath circulators from work (defense industry) and I know how to use them. I think that with an external temperature probe in a long theromwell, I can control the liquid must temperature to +/-1 degree F. What I'm not sure about is how to create some gentle agitation in the must for even temperature distribution. One idea I've had was to use a circulation pump (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SG3XSD...olid=2YK76CEZXAYU1&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it) on a timer to do a pump-over every 15-20 minutes. That would probably work well and make me feel better about only being able to punch down the cap in the early morning and late in the evening. If anyone has other ideas, I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## NorCal

MiBor said:


> To me, this is the most interesting and informative thread on these forums so far. I am deeply thankful to @NorCal and all the other contributors for sharing this wealth of information with the rest of us. This thread made me think hard about my winemaking techniques and how I could improve the quality of my wines without spending a whole lot of money on professional equipment. I also decided to start getting ready early for next season so, after re-reading the thread for the 5th time, I came to the conclusion that temperature control is what would make a lot of difference in my winemaking. It would enable me to do longer cold soaks and extended maceration, as well as stretching the AF time to some degree. So I went and bought a refrigerated circulator with a digital control on eBay (Neslab RTE-111), and 100' of stainless steel tubing to make a custom heat exchanger in my insulated fermenter. I'm familiar with heated/refrigerated bath circulators from work (defense industry) and I know how to use them. I think that with an external temperature probe in a long theromwell, I can control the liquid must temperature to +/-1 degree F. What I'm not sure about is how to create some gentle agitation in the must for even temperature distribution. One idea I've had was to use a circulation pump (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SG3XSD...olid=2YK76CEZXAYU1&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it) on a timer to do a pump-over every 15-20 minutes. That would probably work well and make me feel better about only being able to punch down the cap in the early morning and late in the evening. If anyone has other ideas, I'm open to suggestions.



Please do start a thread when you pull this together. I agree that temp control during fermentation is THE big process differentiator that separates good home made wine and excellent commercial wine.


----------



## Rice_Guy

The standard agitation in 40 ft tall milk silos is to bubble compressed air in the bottom. Some references about wine are using nitrogen (even CO2)


MiBor said:


> What I'm not sure about is how to create some gentle agitation in the must for even temperature distribution. . . . . That would probably work well and make me feel better about only being able to punch down the cap in the early morning and late in the evening. If anyone has other ideas.


The temperature tanks I have dealt with tend to have a 6 inch Thermo well, or at most a 12 inch. This probably goes back to the risk of having some yahoo break it while cleaning or mixing the contents.
You are talking about two functions. Temperature control vs punch down of the cap. When punching down for a 1000 gallon or larger vat I would use the pump. For smaller systems I have wondered about using a round stainless perforated cover to hold the cap down however this might be verging on liking the toys more than the end product.


----------



## Steve Wargo

Most likely some of you have seen the info on the link below. I'm glad we have a place to share what we've tried ourselves or information found at other sites. https://extension.psu.edu/an-introduction-on-low-temperature-fermentation-in-wine-production


----------



## MiBor

Thank you all for the input. Once I have the system put together I'll start a new thread and post pictures and observations. My goal is to test the temperature controlled fermenter this spring, by doing a batch of Australian or Chilean Sauvignon Blanc juice with QA23 yeast at 59F and see how much of the floral and citrus notes I can retain. I fermented the same wine at about 68-70F before and I lost a lot of nose and flavor, so this will be a good test.


----------



## mainshipfred

MiBor said:


> Thank you all for the input. Once I have the system put together I'll start a new thread and post pictures and observations. My goal is to test the temperature controlled fermenter this spring, by doing a batch of Australian or Chilean Sauvignon Blanc juice with QA23 yeast at 59F and see how much of the floral and citrus notes I can retain. I fermented the same wine at about 68-70F before and I lost a lot of nose and flavor, so this will be a good test.



I'm not sure if I remember this correctly but in another thread I thought there was discussion about the way the juice is processed doesn't allow the cold ferment to enhance the aromatics of the wine. I can't find the thread or the source and I could be wrong or it could have pertained to kit wines.


----------



## MiBor

mainshipfred said:


> there was discussion about the way the juice is processed doesn't allow the cold ferment to enhance the aromatics of the wine


I remember reading something like that but it was about kit wines. I have personal experience with juice buckets of Sauvignon Blanc turning out great when I could keep them cool during fermentation and not so great when I couldn't.
For the sake of it, I've started putting together a list of not expensive and readily available parts that would make a good temperature controlled fermenter for anyone who would like to step up their wine making game. I think I've got it in the ballpark of $250 for the 15 gallon fermenter (not including the chiller) and $300 for the 30 gallon, but I'm not sure that 304 stainless steel is good enough for wine (cooling coil) or if it has to be 316 SS which is more expensive.


----------



## Ajmassa

MiBor said:


> I remember reading something like that but it was about kit wines. I have personal experience with juice buckets of Sauvignon Blanc turning out great when I could keep them cool during fermentation and not so great when I couldn't.
> For the sake of it, I've started putting together a list of not expensive and readily available parts that would make a good temperature controlled fermenter for anyone who would like to step up their wine making game. I think I've got it in the ballpark of $250 for the 15 gallon fermenter (not including the chiller) and $300 for the 30 gallon, but I'm not sure that 304 stainless steel is good enough for wine (cooling coil) or if it has to be 316 SS which is more expensive.




I’ll be going with a much less complicated & much less expensive method. 

A handful of Frozen water jugs. Tossing in when appropriate, rotating more in & out as needed, and hoping for the best. 

If my ~4 day ferment becomes a 6 dayer I’m calling it a win


----------



## sour_grapes

MiBor said:


> I remember reading something like that but it was about kit wines. I have personal experience with juice buckets of Sauvignon Blanc turning out great when I could keep them cool during fermentation and not so great when I couldn't.
> For the sake of it, I've started putting together a list of not expensive and readily available parts that would make a good temperature controlled fermenter for anyone who would like to step up their wine making game. I think I've got it in the ballpark of $250 for the 15 gallon fermenter (not including the chiller) and $300 for the 30 gallon, but I'm not sure that 304 stainless steel is good enough for wine (cooling coil) or if it has to be 316 SS which is more expensive.



IMHO, 304 should be good enough. True, 316 is more corrosion resistant, but my understanding is that this superior performance is predominantly against corrosion by chlorides (i.e., salt water applications). I don't see where 304 would fall short in just a solution of organic acids.

Maybe @Rice_Guy would know with more certainty; no shortage of 304 used in the food industry!


----------



## Rice_Guy

The cost of fabrication is so much greater than the difference between 304 and 316 stainless. We use 316 as the standard.

In home use it shouldn’t be exposed to long term K metabisulphite, it won’t matter , , rinse ALL stainless even if it is 316, concentrated acid and salt can pit it.


sour_grapes said:


> IMHO, 304 should be good enough. True, 316 is more corrosion resistant, but my understanding is that this superior performance is predominantly against corrosion by chlorides (i.e., salt water applications). I don't see where 304 would fall short in just a solution of organic acids. . . .used in the food industry!


----------



## Rice_Guy

* chiller: try a dorm fridge or small chest freezer off Craig’s list. One of the techniques used is to build an ice bank to flatten out the load on the refrigeration unit and run a smaller compressor.
* cooling coil: for home use, plastic ought to be good enough. PEX and polyethylene tubing can be heated in a gas/propane flame to where it softens and then bent into round or straight shapes. I make my racking canes and other customized tubes. If I wanted some stainless in the chill line silicone tube is an easy connector (ex 8mm ID snugs well on 3/8 inch OD) If you bend SS tube, the tool for bending electrical conduit is good.
* pump: no way to get away from it. If you ice bank you need to pump an antifreeze solution. The pump should be the biggest expense, Craig’s list sometimes has beer set ups.
* temperature controller: Amazon has inexpensive choices. You need positive shut off (mechanical relay). The solid state relays leak current which is ok for electrical heaters but not motors. A good controller has a probe with at least 3 feet of cord. You don’t want the controller in the controlled environment.


MiBor said:


> I've started putting together a list of not expensive and readily available parts that would make a good temperature controlled fermenter for anyone who would like to step up their wine making game. I think I've got it in the ballpark of $250 for the 15 gallon fermenter (not including the chiller) and $300 for the 30 gallon, but I'm not sure that 304 stainless steel is good enough for wine (cooling coil) or if it has to be 316 SS which is more expensive.


For 5 or 6 gallon carboys I use the garage fridge with a probe going inside. In active fermentation, the must is about 2 degrees warmer than air temp.
I like “toys” however the frozen milk jug works well if my wife needs the garage fridge.


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## jsbeckton

Chest freezer and thermowell allow me to control must temp within 1-2 degrees on the cheap. Only limitation is that I can only fit about 25g but that’s not a problem for my needs.

Bonus...the rest of the year it holds kegs!


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## 1d10t

As a former appliance repair person that tried to get a decent used refrigeration unit off of Craig's list, let me just say I now refer to it as 'Craig's Liars' and have stopped even looking at that as a resource for ANYTHING. Most units had Freon leaks and the sellers knew it and were trying to get people to pay them to haul their junk away.


----------



## MiBor

jsbeckton said:


> Chest freezer and thermowell allow me to control must temp within 1-2 degrees on the cheap. Only limitation is that I can only fit about 25g but that’s not a problem for my needs.


@jsbeckton How do you use the chest freezer? Do you have containers that fit well in it? Could you post a picture of your setup? I've read about it, but I haven't seen a chest freezer setup for wine.


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## jsbeckton

MiBor said:


> @jsbeckton How do you use the chest freezer? Do you have containers that fit well in it? Could you post a picture of your setup? I've read about it, but I haven't seen a chest freezer setup for wine.



I have the chest freezer on temperature controller (inkbird makes one) and the temp probe in a thermowell. The thermowell is just a tube of metal through the rubber stopper. I think you can but such a thermowell but I just made my own. I then use this to control the temp of my wine/beer with no concern about the difference between air temp and liquid temp. 

It’s really nice and very cheap considering how many chest freezers are on Craigslist.


----------



## Ajmassa

I’m constantly learning and tweaking my techniques. Definitely a lot of trial and error over the years finding my way to make the best product possible. 
I put together a list of changes I’ll be making this year. I know this isn’t a one-size-fits-all type of thing - but this is what I’m doing to hopefully improve my wines and/or process. Stemming from a combo of personal experience, this forum, podcasts etc

1. Water airlocks - No More!. I hate them and always did. Exclusively using waterless bungs now. 
2. Keeping rackings to a bare minimum post-MLF. I don’t mind some lees. Doesn’t make it ‘dirty’ and I don’t view some lees as something that should influence my decision making. 
3. Must pH < 3.6 or Bust! Adjusting must down at crush regardless of TA. Check & repeat next day before yeast. Ultimately cutting so2 needed in the wine and eliminating a needy high pH wine. Plus I despise post fermentation acid adjustments and would like to avoid at all costs. This is probably the most dramatic change out of everything. 
4. I can’t cold soak the must without proper equipment so I’ll be trying to slow fermentation with temp control. The yeast is hella strong and ferments quick. Will try out frozen water jugs this year to lengthen time on skins. 
5. Vigorous punchdowns as often as possible if able. Minimum 3x daily but preferably much more, but careful not to overdose on tannin
6. 10%-15% of the stems will stay in the ferment for some more tannin help- unless they’re green. The hardest part about this is determining if the fruit would benefit or not just by tasting grapes. So will default to a small amount. 
7. Waiting longer till stabilizing. Co-inoculation goes crazy fast. And after MLf is complete the wine is still Co2 protected. So after chroma test shows complete I will let it go another 4-6weeks *minimum. Will ensure the last little bits of MLF & AF finish——— Another contributing factor is because I’m releasing more sugar at pressing since whole berries do not ferment inside the grape easily I’ve learned. Heard a podcast discussing whole berry/cluster ferments. The pressed wine’s SG was MUCH higher than the free run’s after pressing a whole berry ferment. (Whole cluster with the stalk still on the grape even moreso.) And I get a ton of whole berries passing thru. Enough to be a factor? Maybe. Probably not. But no harm is letting it go longer. 
8. Fermenting till dry in primary, and even slightly longer. Stopping punchdowns towards later stages & leaving cap in place for protection. Using non-H2S cultured yeast makes doing this much more ideal. I’ll sacrifice splitting batches for yeast complexity for more days on the skins without risking h2s. 
9. Only using fresh yeast, enzymes, nutrients, malo etc. When I buy bulk it gets wasted too often. I once used enzymes a year old that had zero effect I believe. 
10. Fruit flies. I still have no idea how to properly combat them. Even built an enclosed plastic chamber before with so-so results. But not worth the hassle. Would like to remedy the fruit flies somehow. 
11. And I’m going to start filtering before bottling. Just something course to ensure the wine is as clean as possible before bottling


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa said:


> I’m constantly learning and tweaking my techniques. Definitely a lot of trial and error over the years finding my way to make the best product possible.
> I put together a list of changes I’ll be making this year. I know this isn’t a one-size-fits-all type of thing - but this is what I’m doing to hopefully improve my wines and/or process. Stemming from a combo of personal experience, this forum, podcasts etc
> 
> 1. Water airlocks - No More!. I hate them and always did. Exclusively using waterless bungs now.
> 2. Keeping rackings to a bare minimum post-MLF. I don’t mind some lees. Doesn’t make it ‘dirty’ and I don’t view some lees as something that should influence my decision making.
> 3. Must pH < 3.6 or Bust! Adjusting must down at crush regardless of TA. Check & repeat next day before yeast. Ultimately cutting so2 needed in the wine and eliminating a needy high pH wine. Plus I despise post fermentation acid adjustments and would like to avoid at all costs. This is probably the most dramatic change out of everything.
> 4. I can’t cold soak the must without proper equipment so I’ll be trying to slow fermentation with temp control. The yeast is hella strong and ferments quick. Will try out frozen water jugs this year to lengthen time on skins.
> 5. Vigorous punchdowns as often as possible if able. Minimum 3x daily but preferably much more, but careful not to overdose on tannin
> 6. 10%-15% of the stems will stay in the ferment for some more tannin help- unless they’re green. The hardest part about this is determining if the fruit would benefit or not just by tasting grapes. So will default to a small amount.
> 7. Waiting longer till stabilizing. Co-inoculation goes crazy fast. And after MLf is complete the wine is still Co2 protected. So after chroma test shows complete I will let it go another 4-6weeks *minimum. Will ensure the last little bits of MLF & AF finish——— Another contributing factor is because I’m releasing more sugar at pressing since whole berries do not ferment inside the grape easily I’ve learned. Heard a podcast discussing whole berry/cluster ferments. The pressed wine’s SG was MUCH higher than the free run’s after pressing a whole berry ferment. (Whole cluster with the stalk still on the grape even moreso.) And I get a ton of whole berries passing thru. Enough to be a factor? Maybe. Probably not. But no harm is letting it go longer.
> 8. Fermenting till dry in primary, and even slightly longer. Stopping punchdowns towards later stages & leaving cap in place for protection. Using non-H2S cultured yeast makes doing this much more ideal. I’ll sacrifice splitting batches for yeast complexity for more days on the skins without risking h2s.
> 9. Only using fresh yeast, enzymes, nutrients, malo etc. When I buy bulk it gets wasted too often. I once used enzymes a year old that had zero effect I believe.
> 10. Fruit flies. I still have no idea how to properly combat them. Even built an enclosed plastic chamber before with so-so results. But not worth the hassle. Would like to remedy the fruit flies somehow.
> 11. And I’m going to start filtering before bottling. Just something course to ensure the wine is as clean as possible before bottling




@Ajmassa-Good post. I enjoyed your post enough, I thought I'd comment too:

1-Preach it brother!

2-Right. Rack#3 in February, bottle in the fall. Considering full airtight seal while bulk aging with sanitary fittings.

3-That's going to be a bit of a leap for me. I'm going to go to the first: pH 3.6 or TA 6.5. But I'm willing to do a tune up acidification later. Did that this year with good results. Rose went from good to very good with 1g/Liter tartaric. It's sitting at 6.5 TA right now.

4-Not bothering to cool or slow. Maybe some future year. Fur sure, not doing bottles of ice. Why don't you consider dry ice?

5-Yep-lots of punch downs also help remove excess heat. I have gotten up at 2am to punch down.

6-Stems, huh? Why?

7-I agree. I still had measured Malic (just a trace) when chromo said done.

8-I am going longer primary ferments this year too. Maybe by 1 or 2 days. Not sure it's needed after EX-V, but worth a trial. Also doing deeper ferments to keep more cap submerged.

9-Goes without saying. Lost 10 gallons of Mourrvedre to questionable left over yeast. Not happening again.

10-Not an issue I deal with. I saw maybe 2 this year. They swarm the pomace though but stay out of my garage.

11-I had this thought too. But with the enzyme treatment, the wine gets amazingly clear on it's own. So if the filtration adds O2 exposure, I'm not interested.

12-Off the reservation here, but will do much more thorough testing this year. I have a decent lab set up only lacking sulfite test equipment to be remedied soon. Not measuring with syringes either. I have volumetric pipettes, burettes, beakers, flasks, stir plates, lab standard buffers, the works. I'm thinking the Vinmetrica SC-100 is in my immediate future, since with a good temperature compensated pH meter, I don't think the SC-300 is needed. Please correct if wrong.


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> @Ajmassa-Good post. I enjoyed your post enough, I thought I'd comment too:
> 
> 1-Preach it brother!
> 
> 2-Right. Rack#3 in February, bottle in the fall. Considering full airtight seal while bulk aging with sanitary fittings.
> 
> 3-That's going to be a bit of a leap for me. I'm going to go to the first: pH 3.6 or TA 6.5. But I'm willing to do a tune up acidification later. Did that this year with good results. Rose went from good to very good with 1g/Liter tartaric. It's sitting at 6.5 TA right now.
> 
> 4-Not bothering to cool or slow. Maybe some future year. Fur sure, not doing bottles of ice. Why don't you consider dry ice?
> 
> 5-Yep-lots of punch downs also help remove excess heat. I have gotten up at 2am to punch down.
> 
> 6-Stems, huh? Why?
> 
> 7-I agree. I still had measured Malic (just a trace) when chromo said done.
> 
> 8-I am going longer primary ferments this year too. Maybe by 1 or 2 days. Not sure it's needed after EX-V, but worth a trial. Also doing deeper ferments to keep more cap submerged.
> 
> 9-Goes without saying. Lost 10 gallons of Mourrvedre to questionable left over yeast. Not happening again.
> 
> 10-Not an issue I deal with. I saw maybe 2 this year. They swarm the pomace though but stay out of my garage.
> 
> 11-I had this thought too. But with the enzyme treatment, the wine gets amazingly clear on it's own. So if the filtration adds O2 exposure, I'm not interested.
> 
> 12-Off the reservation here, but will do much more thorough testing this year. I have a decent lab set up only lacking sulfite test equipment to be remedied soon. Not measuring with syringes either. I have volumetric pipettes, burettes, beakers, flasks, stir plates, lab standard buffers, the works. I'm thinking the Vinmetrica SC-100 is in my immediate future, since with a good temperature compensated pH meter, I don't think the SC-300 is needed. Please correct if wrong.



I want to start filtering not for wine clarity but just for cleanliness. On a small batch i made I noticed a slight swirly sheen on the surface after pouring a glass. I figured adding a course filtering at bottling will only help. 
My primaries are either in a 55gal or 32gal brutes. So tossing in frozen jugs of water to keeps temps down and maybe get another day or 2 seems like it’s achievable and I’m gonna give it a shot. 
As far as the 3.6 adjustment, this was actually my plan going into 2018 season but I chickened out b/c of the TA side effect. Ultimately my small addition barely made a dent, ph crept back up and stayed gifting me with all the joys of a high ph wine lol. 
With the Vinmetrica I have the sc-300 but haven’t used it enough to really have an opinion. I can say the ph meter is quality. Calibrates quickly and stabilizes a reading quicker than my Milwaukee ph-55 ever did. 
One thing I love about this hobby is that it can be as simple or as involved as you want it to be. And it’s fun to always be working to improve or tweak your operation up.


----------



## Ajmassa

Oh and the decision about stems is just to add a little something extra. They say it can compliment high acid wines and also compliment high brix wines- if done right*. Which is insanely complicated and I’m assuming need years of experience to make confident decisions with them. 
The old timers in my fam used 100% of them. And I’d say about 5% sneak thru my C/D already. So will toss in another handful and hope the wine gods are lookin out for me!
There’s tons of literature out there about it. Definitely an interesting topic. Here’s an article that gets into nice detail

https://wineanorak.com/wholebunch.htm


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> 8-I am going longer primary ferments this year too. Maybe by 1 or 2 days. Not sure it's needed after EX-V, but worth a trial. Also doing deeper ferments to keep more cap submerged.
> .




So much info in these last couple posts I missed this initially. And yeah, that EX-V works wonders. I Definitely need to stay aware and not overdo it if the fruit allows it. 
But regarding the deeper ferment— wouldn’t you want the opposite with a more shallow tub? Deeper= narrower = thicker cap=less skin contact since only the bottom of the cap is in contact Imagine fermenting in a 50’ tall 6” pipe/tank. Almost none of that cap would be in the wine. And this is why I assumed those standard red fermentation tubs resemble a baby pool. To spread out the cap for maximum skins contact. (I don’t actually know this. Just an assumption)


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa said:


> So much info in these last couple posts I missed this initially. And yeah, that EX-V works wonders. I Definitely need to stay aware and not overdo it if the fruit allows it.
> But regarding the deeper ferment— wouldn’t you want the opposite with a more shallow tub? Deeper= narrower = thicker cap=less skin contact since only the bottom of the cap is in contact Imagine fermenting in a 50’ tall 6” pipe/tank. Almost none of that cap would be in the wine. And this is why I assumed those standard red fermentation tubs resemble a baby pool. To spread out the cap for maximum skins contact. (I don’t actually know this. Just an assumption)



Not sure. A deeper, narrower ferment means more weight of the cap pushes down into the wine. I do not know what is better. I did like doing an accidental deep ferment last fall where the cap barely stayed in the 44 gallon brute. It's very good now at a young age. I think the wine is better, but it could just be me.


----------



## NorCal

Ajmassa said:


> I’m constantly learning and tweaking my techniques. Definitely a lot of trial and error over the years finding my way to make the best product possible.
> I put together a list of changes I’ll be making this year. I know this isn’t a one-size-fits-all type of thing - but this is what I’m doing to hopefully improve my wines and/or process. Stemming from a combo of personal experience, this forum, podcasts etc
> 
> 1. Water airlocks - No More!. I hate them and always did. Exclusively using waterless bungs now.
> 2. Keeping rackings to a bare minimum post-MLF. I don’t mind some lees. Doesn’t make it ‘dirty’ and I don’t view some lees as something that should influence my decision making.
> 3. Must pH < 3.6 or Bust! Adjusting must down at crush regardless of TA. Check & repeat next day before yeast. Ultimately cutting so2 needed in the wine and eliminating a needy high pH wine. Plus I despise post fermentation acid adjustments and would like to avoid at all costs. This is probably the most dramatic change out of everything.
> 4. I can’t cold soak the must without proper equipment so I’ll be trying to slow fermentation with temp control. The yeast is hella strong and ferments quick. Will try out frozen water jugs this year to lengthen time on skins.
> 5. Vigorous punchdowns as often as possible if able. Minimum 3x daily but preferably much more, but careful not to overdose on tannin
> 6. 10%-15% of the stems will stay in the ferment for some more tannin help- unless they’re green. The hardest part about this is determining if the fruit would benefit or not just by tasting grapes. So will default to a small amount.
> 7. Waiting longer till stabilizing. Co-inoculation goes crazy fast. And after MLf is complete the wine is still Co2 protected. So after chroma test shows complete I will let it go another 4-6weeks *minimum. Will ensure the last little bits of MLF & AF finish——— Another contributing factor is because I’m releasing more sugar at pressing since whole berries do not ferment inside the grape easily I’ve learned. Heard a podcast discussing whole berry/cluster ferments. The pressed wine’s SG was MUCH higher than the free run’s after pressing a whole berry ferment. (Whole cluster with the stalk still on the grape even moreso.) And I get a ton of whole berries passing thru. Enough to be a factor? Maybe. Probably not. But no harm is letting it go longer.
> 8. Fermenting till dry in primary, and even slightly longer. Stopping punchdowns towards later stages & leaving cap in place for protection. Using non-H2S cultured yeast makes doing this much more ideal. I’ll sacrifice splitting batches for yeast complexity for more days on the skins without risking h2s.
> 9. Only using fresh yeast, enzymes, nutrients, malo etc. When I buy bulk it gets wasted too often. I once used enzymes a year old that had zero effect I believe.
> 10. Fruit flies. I still have no idea how to properly combat them. Even built an enclosed plastic chamber before with so-so results. But not worth the hassle. Would like to remedy the fruit flies somehow.
> 11. And I’m going to start filtering before bottling. Just something course to ensure the wine is as clean as possible before bottling



What a great list, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Ike64

Good list @Ajmassa 
The hard part is to remember to implement these come next fall. 
My two cents worth.
2. I minimize rackings, too (mostly because of non-wine life). Stirring the lees (batonage) occasionally is important to increase mouthfeel and reduce acid of lower pH wines.
3. Totally agree.
4. I am definitely using jugs of ice next year. My fermentations went way too fast this year.
5. I recommend thorough, but not over vigorous punch downs. Two years ago I was way to vigorous and I think I oxidized the wine/must. This year I made sure the cap was broken-up and well mixed, but I was careful not to over do it. I think this still provides the yeast with plenty of oxygen.
11. I started filtering too. I don't like using fining agents. So, I let the wine rest in carboys until late summer, do a final rack with a fine filter and bottle. It doesn't necessarily add to the sterility of the wine, but it does reduce the amount of sediment.
12. @CDrew, dittos. Also, Colorado State University has an extension, in Grand Junction, to support Colorado's wine industry. Full disclosure, I buy my grapes from them. They run a complete wine chemistry profile on the fruit when it's picked and they will also run chemistry on my wine. I usually send them samples after primary. I'd highly recommend contacting State University extensions or community colleges in viticultural areas close to where you live. In my experience, their always willing to help and answer questions.


----------



## stickman

@Ajmassa all very good points. The main issue I always think about is what kind of wine are we trying to make, I imagine the answer is different for many of us. Do we match the wine making techniques to the fruit we have and the desired wine style? Here's another podcast for you, the whole podcast is good, but Pax Mahle starts at the 22 minute mark and discusses his thoughts on the wine style he likes and how he achieves it, this doesn't mean this is right for everyone, but it does show how different things can be. He's picking earlier than most, fermentation with stems included, whole cluster, sometimes a partial crush on all or part of the fruit, sometimes uses carbonic maceration which he also explains. He did receive a 100 points on one of his Syrah's, again it's not for everyone, but many very good points are discussed.

Geoff Kruth interviews Jason Haas of Tablas Creek and Pax Mahle of Pax Mahle Wines on working with Rhône grape varieties in California.
http://traffic.libsyn.com/guildsomm/Rhone_Grapes_in_California.mp3?dest-id=52314


----------



## ibglowin

Thanks @stickman enjoyed the detailed talk about Rhone varietals and the Paso AVA. We hit Tablas Creek back in September. Going to more than likely make a quick road trip back up to Paso in a few weeks as we will be back in the area.


----------



## mainshipfred

There are so many schools of thought on a lot of these topics, except fruit flies, and I'm afraid I'll never be able to understand most of them either through reading or practice. I truly believe in @stickman's comment on the desired wine style. That along with our belief in a theory, successful past experiences or just the fear of changing will lead us in different directions with our decision making. 
1. During fermentation both primary and secondary (MLF) I have no issue with the S shaped air locks. Once the wine has off gassed substantially I always use solid bungs, especially in barrels.
2 and 11. I also don't rack very often during bulk and I have been filtering my reds with a 5 um for the same reason as you, a clearer wine. You do introduce O2 while filtering but I just run argon through a sparging stone prior to bottling. Sometimes I take DO readings and sometimes not. Whites I filter with a 1 um.
3. This one is borderline for me, I recently took a 4.2 pH Viognier down to a 3.57 pre fermentation and it's pretty good and ready to bottle. But taking it down more then .4 kind of scares me.
4. I've not played much with cold soak or EM so I can't comment on that. I do however try to maintain 75-85 must temps for reds and 50-60 on whites.
5. I do as soft a punch down as I can for the tannin reason and feel 3 times a day is adequate.
6. No comment and the CD is not perfect. I just remove the visible stems as I punch down.
7. As much as I can find no reason not to I still do a post fermentation MLF. The carboys are filled to within a half inch and I let them sit 3 months to complete. I won't do the first test for 2 months. It then gets sulfited and waits it's turn in glass or goes in a barrel.
8. Same as you with regard to finishing in primary. I'm a big fan of multiple yeasts whether non H2S or not and will more than likely never change this. Just call me stubborn!
9. Never had much of a problem with this although I can't say any of my additives ever get that old except maybe yeast.

My add to the list is waiting for the wine to become somewhat finished prior to blending and almost always provide some type of blending. My thought is blending adds to the complexity and if blending wines that have just finished secondary or close to it you just don't know what qualities they will bring in 10-12 months.


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> @Ajmassa all very good points. The main issue I always think about is what kind of wine are we trying to make, I imagine the answer is different for many of us. Do we match the wine making techniques to the fruit we have and the desired wine style? Here's another podcast for you, the whole podcast is good, but Pax Mahle starts at the 22 minute mark and discusses his thoughts on the wine style he likes and how he achieves it, this doesn't mean this is right for everyone, but it does show how different things can be. He's picking earlier than most, fermentation with stems included, whole cluster, sometimes a partial crush on all or part of the fruit, sometimes uses carbonic maceration which he also explains. He did receive a 100 points on one of his Syrah's, again it's not for everyone, but many very good points are discussed.
> 
> Geoff Kruth interviews Jason Haas of Tablas Creek and Pax Mahle of Pax Mahle Wines on working with Rhône grape varieties in California.
> http://traffic.libsyn.com/guildsomm/Rhone_Grapes_in_California.mp3?dest-id=52314



“Everyone is an amateur.” 
-Max Pahle on established & respected French Rhône winemakers. 

^^Loved this take. 

And the context wasn’t a burn. Essentially—the American winemakers striving to make the correct calls in their French grapes grown here is actually no different than what the established Frenchies are dealing with over there. Always learning, adapting to conditions and applying winemaking logic in hopes of making the right calls with everchanging harvests. 

Thanks for sharing @stickman. I enjoyed it. 
And by the way- he poked fun at the Cali ‘BRW style’ somewhat (Big Red Wine- where a varietal’s unique characteristics can be overshadowed by the...’bigness’), but as a home winemaker with limited means, I’m perfectly content making a quality BRW!!!


And here’s the link to the podcast I referenced yesterday about whole cluster & whole berry fermentation. Also discusses carbonic maceration, natural fermentations, and acidulated water additions to knock down high Brix°. 
(If using a phone it’s also in the itunes podcast app too—plays in the background & no need leave the screen on the website.)
https://www.insidewinemaking.com/032


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## Chuck E

A few months ago I watched the "Wine Revealed" series. There was one episode, where the wine maker talked about everyone in California trying to make wines that would score high on Parker's scale because they would sell better. I agree that this is part of what yields Cali BRW styles. 

It's ALL about the choices we make as craftsman...


----------



## NorCal

I’m in search of big, but big because I got the most out of the grapes.

I’ve found I can dump Petit Verdot or even better Petite Sirah in any wine and make it big. Not always better, just darker, bolder, big tannin, but I found that these grapes are like spices and that if used in excess, will dominate the wine. However, used in moderation can add the look, feel and taste of a wine that has better extraction and complements the wine, expanding the taste on the back-end vs. changing the wine in a monolithic fashion.

I feel the closest I’ve been able to get to this goal is in my current barrel, where I deployed a number of strategies to make the best wine I could. I’ve never had a wine taste as good as it does, as young as it is (5 months). I’ve learned though that these things change and good early doesn’t always translate to good finished, so I’m keeping an eye on it.


----------



## cmason1957

NorCal said:


> I’m in search of big, but big because I got the most out of the grapes.
> 
> I’ve found I can dump Petit Verdot or even better Petite Sirah in any wine and make it big. Not always better, just darker, bolder, big tannin, but I found that these grapes are like spices and that if used in excess, will dominate the wine. However, used in moderation can add the look, feel and taste of a wine that has better extraction and complements the wine, expanding the taste on the back-end vs. changing the wine in a monolithic fashion.
> 
> I feel the closest I’ve been able to get to this goal is in my current barrel, where I deployed a number of strategies to make the best wine I could. I’ve never had a wine taste as good as it does, as young as it is (5 months). I’ve learned though that these things change and good early doesn’t always translate to good finished, so I’m keeping an eye on it.



I think, if it were me, I would be out there with a straw checking it every single day or at least once a week. Just to see if it changed any and then crying when it was all gone.


----------



## mainshipfred

NorCal said:


> I’m in search of big, but big because I got the most out of the grapes.
> 
> I’ve found I can dump Petit Verdot or even better Petite Sirah in any wine and make it big. Not always better, just darker, bolder, big tannin, but I found that these grapes are like spices and that if used in excess, will dominate the wine. However, used in moderation can add the look, feel and taste of a wine that has better extraction and complements the wine, expanding the taste on the back-end vs. changing the wine in a monolithic fashion.
> 
> I feel the closest I’ve been able to get to this goal is in my current barrel, where I deployed a number of strategies to make the best wine I could. I’ve never had a wine taste as good as it does, as young as it is (5 months). I’ve learned though that these things change and good early doesn’t always translate to good finished, so I’m keeping an eye on it.



I couldn't agree more with your good early/good late comment. But it can be good early and late, just different. Which is the reason for my earlier comment about waiting for a more finished wine to blend.


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## rødvinselsker

Just starting this journey, just began my second kit without skins; Eclipse Merlot kit with skins starts later today. I consider these kits to be baby steps to understanding this process. My ultimate goal is to retire next year and eventually turn this into a business, though that will involve a decent amount of capital and a consulting wine maker. That said, the base of knowledge in this forum is fantastic, and has probably led to as many questions as answers.

My goal is to create a process flowchart and use spreadsheets to track condition of the grapes and what I'm doing. Process before creativity. Getting ready to order buckets of frozen must for my fourth go: Merlot and Cab sauv from Livermore. To get the most out of them, and aside from yeast selections, one primary question was fermentation time and temp. I found this article that sheds a bit of light on my questions, https://winesvinesanalytics.com/col...le/60528/Winemakers-Heated-About-Fermentation (I actually read the cached version since the article wouldn't load).

Thanks and look forward to continuing to read your comments and interact with everyone!


----------



## Rocky

I don't know, Guys. I have read through this thread and I believe I understand what you are trying to do. However I, for one, refuse to compromise my wine just to make it taste as bad as commercial wine.


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## Mead Maker

I totally agree with Rocky.

My homebrew is better than anything I can buy. And my friends all agree — they have pretty much given up on commercial wines.

And with hundreds of gallons just sitting around in my wine room I’m happy to give them away just to make room for whatever fruits 2020 and my friends will bless me with.

BTW, I‘ve never used a wine kit. Seems too much like a high school chemistry class.


----------



## NorCal

My commercial bar is set above the grocery store wine. Most of the volume moved in the grocery store is back sweetened, mega purple junk wine. 

My sights are set at comparing my wine against those seeking wine spectator, wine enthusiasts, Parker scores. A good wine is like good art, hard to describe but you know it when you see/taste it.


----------



## Rocky

NorCal said:


> My commercial bar is set above the grocery store wine. Most of the volume moved in the grocery store is back sweetened, mega purple junk wine.
> 
> My sights are set at comparing my wine against those seeking wine spectator, wine enthusiasts, Parker scores. A good wine is like good art, hard to describe but you know it when you see/taste it.



I want everyone on this forum to understand that I completely agree with NorCal and what he is trying to do. I truly believe it is a commendable endeavor and I also believe he will have spectacular results. An analogy, that I have used before relating to Classic Cars, it is the difference between winning a ribbon at Pebble Beach with a 100 point Packard and a local car show with a good looking daily driver.


----------



## mainshipfred

NorCal said:


> My commercial bar is set above the grocery store wine. Most of the volume moved in the grocery store is back sweetened, mega purple junk wine.
> 
> My sights are set at comparing my wine against those seeking wine spectator, wine enthusiasts, Parker scores. A good wine is like good art, hard to describe but you know it when you see/taste it.



I can't buy that all commercial wines are bad or every wine one makes is better than any commercial wine. I think we all make good and not so good wines and on occasion something we think is spectacular. But like @NorCal and others I'm not satisfied with this and strive to get as many as possible to the spectacular level.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I can't buy that all commercial wines are bad or every wine one makes is better than any commercial wine. I think we all make good and not so good wines and on occasion something we think is spectacular. But like @NorCal and others I'm not satisfied with this and strive to get as many as possible to the spectacular level.



Well said. The term “Commercial wine” definitely has quite a wide range. And “quality” is also relative. The commercial wines in my house are $15-$20 bottles when I shop— $8-15 when she shops  Always finding diamonds in the rough. But will also grab an expensive bottle on occasion. It’s not often- but when I drink a high quality wine of our style preference there’s no comparison. I’ll think to myself- “Oohh. So THIS is what wine is supposed to taste like!” Talkin a big dry red. Aged enough. High abv, high acid, high tannin, balanced. 

The expensive ones are still hit or miss—but more hit. And those really good ones ya don’t need a refined palate to note the difference. Compared to most cheapos it can be like a man amongst boys. The last time I had this was a few months back with 2017 Cab from Wash St Red Mountain about $45. Forget the name tho. It began with a D. Ugh. I need to go back and check that.
All im trying to say is that for me, REGARDLESS of whether it’s achievable or not with my available fruit and means, making something comparable to this type of wine I consider high quality will always be my ultimate goal. Yes for the wine but mainly because I enjoy doing it.


----------



## Mead Maker

After reading NorCal’s comments I realized that we seem to be living in two different worlds. I talked to my wine making buddies and none of us had ever seen wine spectator or wine enthusiast magazines, although a few had heard of them. And as for Parker Scores, that drew blank stares. Had to Google it to learn about Robert Parker and the Wine Advocate.

Hounddawg, who has called himself a hillbilly winemaker, seems to live in my world except there are no hills here below sea level. I guess I’m a swamp jumper winemaker. Around here, if you shoot it you eat it, and if it’s sweet you turn it into wine.

Our scoring criteria is fairly simple: does it taste good? After sampling, do you want to eat the whole thing or drink the whole bottle?

We enter all the wine competitions, and we all strive to produce “spectacular wines.” I wonder how Robert Parker would judge what we make.

Judging is always a crap shoot. I had a very tasty wine that was dinged because it “tasted of mulberry,” a comment that indicated too much tannin. My reaction was, “but it’s mulberry wine! Of course it tastes of mulberry.” Came in second place behind a wine kit. 

I’ve never used a kit, imported grapes from Chile or Australia, or even California. If it doesn’t grow here we don’t spend our money on such things.

I have a friend who is a professional “wine expert,” trained at UC Davis. When he leaves California to return to the swamp every year or so he calls ahead and requests a half-dozen bottles of wine to share. We sit around and drink my wine and eat whatever we shot, and sometimes we even talk about wine. He calls my wines “unpretentious.”

Next time he’s in town I’ll ask him for my Parker Scores.


----------



## rødvinselsker

Mead Maker said:


> After reading NorCal’s comments I realized that we seem to be living in two different worlds. I talked to my wine making buddies and none of us had ever seen wine spectator or wine enthusiast magazines, although a few had heard of them. And as for Parker Scores, that drew blank stares. Had to Google it to learn about Robert Parker and the Wine Advocate.
> 
> Hounddawg, who has called himself a hillbilly winemaker, seems to live in my world except there are no hills here below sea level. I guess I’m a swamp jumper winemaker. Around here, if you shoot it you eat it, and if it’s sweet you turn it into wine.
> 
> Our scoring criteria is fairly simple: does it taste good? After sampling, do you want to eat the whole thing or drink the whole bottle?
> 
> We enter all the wine competitions, and we all strive to produce “spectacular wines.” I wonder how Robert Parker would judge what we make.
> 
> Judging is always a crap shoot. I had a very tasty wine that was dinged because it “tasted of mulberry,” a comment that indicated too much tannin. My reaction was, “but it’s mulberry wine! Of course it tastes of mulberry.” Came in second place behind a wine kit.
> 
> I’ve never used a kit, imported grapes from Chile or Australia, or even California. If it doesn’t grow here we don’t spend our money on such things.
> 
> I have a friend who is a professional “wine expert,” trained at UC Davis. When he leaves California to return to the swamp every year or so he calls ahead and requests a half-dozen bottles of wine to share. We sit around and drink my wine and eat whatever we shot, and sometimes we even talk about wine. He calls my wines “unpretentious.”
> 
> Next time he’s in town I’ll ask him for my Parker Scores.


FWIW, I've had my share of Parker and James Laube highly rated pinot's and cabs that didn't sit well with me, both French and American. It's all a matter of taste, but in many cases, their reviews are just a starting point. You drink what you like, and if you like it eat the whole thing, though you may only want to drink half the bottle ;-)


----------



## NorCal

Mead Maker said:


> After reading NorCal’s comments I realized that we seem to be living in two different worlds. I talked to my wine making buddies and none of us had ever seen wine spectator or wine enthusiast magazines, although a few had heard of them. And as for Parker Scores, that drew blank stares. Had to Google it to learn about Robert Parker and the Wine Advocate.
> 
> Hounddawg, who has called himself a hillbilly winemaker, seems to live in my world except there are no hills here below sea level. I guess I’m a swamp jumper winemaker. Around here, if you shoot it you eat it, and if it’s sweet you turn it into wine.
> 
> Our scoring criteria is fairly simple: does it taste good? After sampling, do you want to eat the whole thing or drink the whole bottle?
> 
> We enter all the wine competitions, and we all strive to produce “spectacular wines.” I wonder how Robert Parker would judge what we make.
> 
> Judging is always a crap shoot. I had a very tasty wine that was dinged because it “tasted of mulberry,” a comment that indicated too much tannin. My reaction was, “but it’s mulberry wine! Of course it tastes of mulberry.” Came in second place behind a wine kit.
> 
> I’ve never used a kit, imported grapes from Chile or Australia, or even California. If it doesn’t grow here we don’t spend our money on such things.
> 
> I have a friend who is a professional “wine expert,” trained at UC Davis. When he leaves California to return to the swamp every year or so he calls ahead and requests a half-dozen bottles of wine to share. We sit around and drink my wine and eat whatever we shot, and sometimes we even talk about wine. He calls my wines “unpretentious.”
> 
> Next time he’s in town I’ll ask him for my Parker Scores.



Love it! Made my day.


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## cmason1957

I treat Points noted on a wine bottle similar to how I treat movie reviews. I know that (back in the day) if Roger Ebert said it was a movie he liked and had good acting, script, etc. Unless he said it was mostly just talking, I was probably going to like that movie. My point, find a point giving group that you agree with, most of the time, if they say it is 95 points and you have agreed with their ratings in the past, you are probably going to like that wine and every so often try one that might be out of your normal, just becasue, every so often you find out that regardless of the poor rating it got, you like it.


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## MiBor

I follow this thread more than any other threads on this forum. My goal is to make the best possible "big red" wine at home, with the understanding that a commercial winemaker has tools and can employ techniques that are cost prohibitive for the home winemaker. I looked a lot into temperature control and how it influences the quality of red wine, but lately I've been intrigued by some french techniques that are possible to use in a home setting: saignée and délestage. (_For those who don't know, saignée involves the removal of a proportion of juice from a tank of crushed red grapes. This technique increases the amount of skins relative to juice in the tank and typically results in a concentration effect, producing richer wines with more color and tannin. Délestage consists of draining off the wine after fermentation has begun and straining out some of the seeds from the juice. The removed wine is sprayed into a second tank to aerate it. After all the wine juice is removed from the first tank it is pumped back in over the top of the cap. This achieves a second aeration and helps ensure a complete fermentation._)
I know that some of the more experienced winemakers on this forum are using these methods and I was wandering if anyone would like to share their experience and findings. In my opinion the distinguishing characteristic of a "big red" wine is concentration (of color, flavor, tannins, alcohol, etc.) and that level of concentration and extraction can't be achieved without changing the skin to juice ratio, along with managing the tannin extraction from grape seeds.


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## cmason1957

I would say do be careful with the saignee method, don't remove to much. Before you ask, I don't know how much is to much. I do know I had 300 lbs of St. Vincent, which is a hybrid red grape grown in the midwest, drained off enough juice to make 6 gallons of rose. While the rose was very good, the main wine was horribly over tannic and very recently my wife and I decided it was best fed to the Gods of the drain.


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## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> I would say do be careful with the saignee method, don't remove to much. Before you ask, I don't know how much is to much. I do know I had 300 lbs of St. Vincent, which is a hybrid red grape grown in the midwest, drained off enough juice to make 6 gallons of rose. While the rose was very good, the main wine was horribly over tannic and very recently my wife and I decided it was best fed to the Gods of the drain.



Interesting. that’s about 1/3 juice removed. I’m about to do 1/4 removal. Fingers crossed

I did load up 300lbs worth of once lightly pressed skins Into 6 gal of juice before. Fermentation was sludge. Resulting wine though was an incredible improvement in color and body than typical buckets.
And if going the saignee route I guess ya gotta anticipate a heavy boost in tannin. My understanding is that to do this proper ya wanna have high acid and Brix to match that tannin for a balanced big red.
Although not every commercial big red has numbers that agree with that thought so who knows 
My spring grapes are usually low 3’s ph and I’m not against bumping brix. Hoping 25% extra skins isnt too heavy.


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## 1d10t

cmason1957 said:


> I would say do be careful with the saignee method, don't remove to much. Before you ask, I don't know how much is to much. I do know I had 300 lbs of St. Vincent, which is a hybrid red grape grown in the midwest, drained off enough juice to make 6 gallons of rose. While the rose was very good, the main wine was horribly over tannic and very recently my wife and I decided it was best fed to the Gods of the drain.


Not even a candidate for blending or topping up?


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## CDrew

Like AJ, I did this last year as well. Removed 100 pounds out of a 400pound Mourvedre crush and made Rose with it. The Rose is done/bottled/very good and I plan to do it again, though I may follow @cmason1957 and just dump the skins. I'll make that call in real time.

You can read about it here if interested:





Saignee-Real time help


Today was Mourvedre day and wouldn't you know it, there was an extra 100 pounds give or take that needed a home. So I got my usual 300 and an extra hundred for Rose. So the grapes were very nice brix 25 off a hillside vineyard in Contra Costa County near Brentwood. My plan is to let the...




www.winemakingtalk.com





The skins were returned to the main fermentation. The resulting wine had an unrelated issue and I tossed half of it. The other half with a different yeast is decent. It's been blended with 2 gallons each of Primitivo and Syrah. The extra skins did not make it too tannic, though I really can't tell what good it did. I am going to do it again this year but with more attention to chemistry, and better grapes.

If you want a big wine, I'd suggest you start with the highest quality grapes you can get, use enzymes, to extract more flavor from the skins, and make sure the brix is 24 or better before you start fermentation.

Regarding delestage, that would be pretty easy to do on a home scale-I think @stickman does that with a bottom valve and a bucket, but I can't see how it's that much better than a thorough punchdown. But I don't really know and would encourage @MiBor to try it. Good luck!


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## mainshipfred

My understanding is it's gentler on the seeds and you don't get as much of the harsher seed tannins. When I punch down I make sure I don't hit the bottom.


----------



## cmason1957

1d10t said:


> Not even a candidate for blending or topping up?



This was from 3 years ago, as I recall. We keep hoping the tannins would call, but it was too much even for a heavy peat Scotch drinker (Lagavullin) like me.


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## NorCal

Doing my Cab Franc barrel blend this last season, I did the following.
Yield: 13 gallon Rose juice, 1 gallon Jelly, 38 into barrel, 6.5 CB, 5 CB, 3 CB (66.5 gallon net). Net was 14 gallons/66.5 = 21%. I think I could have done more; not a lot of grippy tannins.


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## MiBor

I found this document looking for how much juice to remove for a successful saignée: Winemaking treatment – Saignée - The Australian Wine Research Institute
It says:_ "The amount of juice bled off can vary from 10 to 20%; however, there is no evidence that removal of 20% is more beneficial than the removal of 10% (Gardener 2015)." _


----------



## MiBor

It looks like délestage and seed removal are not the same process, but are done at the same time. Seed removal is what I'm most interested in doing because I believe most of the bitter tannins are extracted from the seeds during AF. And with a 15-20% saignée the level of tannins is going to be high. My approach would be to remove the seeds as much as possible and let the skin tannins (softer) be extracted instead. A 2" PVC valve installed close to the bottom of a brute ought to be good enough for what I'm trying to do.
I found this PDF online with a quick description of the process, from Ronan Sayburn:
http://ronansayburn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Delestage.pdf


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## rødvinselsker

My understanding of délestage is that many of the seeds come out as the wine is moved to another container and are separated using a straining device. If you have a filter inside your fermentation tank, seeds won't come out. After the liquid has been removed it is returned to the fermentation tank with half the seeds (or the portion you choose to add back), and then the process is repeated daily, or every other day, until fermentation is complete.


----------



## stickman

I have run batches using delestage with and without an internal strainer. Without the strainer the 1.5 inch outlet on my tank will plug up, but can easily be poked through from the top with a plastic rod, and once flowing freely the tank will drain without trouble. The seeds are easily removed from the bottom of the receiving pail after dumping the wine back to the fermenter. I've played around with removing the seeds in a few past batches, but I prefer a fairly tannic wine and found that removing seeds, at least with the grapes I'm using, wasn't the direction I wanted to go. I don't really want to have to add tannin from a bag. Maybe the seeds are more of an issue with extended maceration, certainly the seeds may be a problem if they are under ripe, or possibly removal is beneficial for the early to release fruit forward wine discussed in the article. Once again it comes down to the type of grapes on hand and the wine style you are after. I'll admit my wines are a bit rustic and they do take a few years in bottle to come around.


----------



## NorCal

I continue to watch last year’s wine in barrel, the Cab Franc blend, where I deployed many of these techniques to close the gap. Even though it is still in barrel and a year away from enjoying, I am confident in saying that it is the best wine I’ve ever made.
So, what about this year, the 2020 vintage? What else can I do to make my wine this concentrated, deep wine that has deep, lush, long lasting flavors, that is smooth as silk on the back end? There are two additional steps I would like to do:

1. I would love to do a cold soak for 3 days, but when making a barrel quantity of wine, I cannot figure out an economical, garage based way of doing this. 
2. Use free-run juice only. On the 2019 Cab Franc Blend, I used a higher % of free-run juice to pressed juice, but fell short of committing to 100% free-run. I think I can still get enough tannin structure to make the wine I want to make out of the tannin in the skins, with the varieties I use without using the pressed juice.


----------



## cmason1957

One of the wineries that my wife and I are wine club members of has been doing virtual tasting for several weeks now. They have been done by the winemaker, which is very interesting. This winery is probably small to medium sized they have 1,200 acres with about 400 planted. Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, Sauvignon Blanc, Zinfandel, Merlot, Syrah, Pinot Noir, Primitivo, Sangiovese, Barbera and Dolcetto and probably a few others. I tried to find a picture of the barrel room to include in this post, but was unable. Suffice to say 6 (or maybe 8) barrels high, probably 20 barrels deep and I am going to guess well over 50 rows like that.

One big difference that I heard the winemaker talk about that is nearly impossible for us as homewinemakers to duplicate is variety of barrels. They will put the same wine into 4 or 5 different types of barrels, some one barrel only different and by different types, I mean from a different producer, different place the wood comes from. On the last tasting the winemaker (Hoss) talked about using this particular barrel because it imparts a particular type of spice note, but then he also puts some in this other barrel for a different spice not. If any one is interested, you won't have the wines to taste, but you can remedy that, if you so desire.

If you wish to view the taste-in-places here is a link to them: Virtual Tasting — Brutocao Cellars
The last three Barbara, Sryah, and Sangiovese he goes into some detail about the barrels.


----------



## jsbeckton

I did a 3 day cold soak on my Syrah this year but my scale is small. I use 2 chest freezers that I can fit about six 5 gal buckets in. I could probably double that by removing the lid, adding a 2x10 “collar” and then replacing the lid back on top of the collar to let me stack buckets on top of one another.


----------



## mainshipfred

jsbeckton said:


> I did a 3 day cold soak on my Syrah this year but my scale is small. I use 2 chest freezers that I can fit about six 5 gal buckets in. I could probably double that by removing the lid, adding a 2x10 “collar” and then replacing the lid back on top of the collar to let me stack buckets on top of one another.



It's not that hard to do, Instead of using 2x material I ripped and doubled up 3/4 " plywood and raised it 12". 2x material is not always the straightest and with plywood you get a nice seal. The hardest thing is lifting the lower buckets out of the freezer and you do have a different temperature at the different levels.


----------



## mainshipfred

NorCal said:


> I continue to watch last year’s wine in barrel, the Cab Franc blend, where I deployed many of these techniques to close the gap. Even though it is still in barrel and a year away from enjoying, I am confident in saying that it is the best wine I’ve ever made.
> So, what about this year, the 2020 vintage? What else can I do to make my wine this concentrated, deep wine that has deep, lush, long lasting flavors, that is smooth as silk on the back end? There are two additional steps I would like to do:
> 
> 1. I would love to do a cold soak for 3 days, but when making a barrel quantity of wine, I cannot figure out an economical, garage based way of doing this.
> 2. Use free-run juice only. On the 2019 Cab Franc Blend, I used a higher % of free-run juice to pressed juice, but fell short of committing to 100% free-run. I think I can still get enough tannin structure to make the wine I want to make out of the tannin in the skins, with the varieties I use without using the pressed juice.



In this months issue of WineMaker Magazine there is an article on small glycol chillers. I'm not saying they are economical at around $800.00 to $1,000.00 but they are a lot less expensive than I would have thought. This brought me to dig a little deeper (very little digging) and found water chillers for much less the cost. I have no idea what size, flow or temperature would be required. I have a meeting on Tuesday with the contractor installing the chillers at the winery I'm working on and I was going to pick his brain on the topic. @stickman and some of the others could probably have some insight on this. I know the winery is only going to have one larger chiller and somehow this can individually control the tanks, the tank room, barrel room and case storage. Can't say I'm personally going to pursue a system but it's certainly making me think.


----------



## stickman

I've worked in chemical plants for 20yrs and during that time specified equipment for several reactor cooling projects. Most of the time there is a main cooling loop as you indicate, and each major piece of equipment or tank etc. will have a separate coil circulation pump. This way you can maintain a uniform high rate of circulation through the jacket and set a jacket or coil temperature set-point to be maintained for each tank. Separate jacket circulation systems aren't always needed for very simple applications, but are a real advantage for sensitive products where the actual coil or jacket temperature is critical. An example might be a main cooling loop running at 25F so that cold stabilization can be done in various vessels, but at the same time it wouldn't be desirable to try to control a red ferment at 85F by trickling a little 25F fluid through the jacket, you would end up with an uneven jacket temperature, basically a little cold spot at the jacket inlet. I could go on and on all day, but don't want to bore people with this kind of stuff.


----------



## mainshipfred

stickman said:


> I've worked in chemical plants for 20yrs and during that time specified equipment for several reactor cooling projects. Most of the time there is a main cooling loop as you indicate, and each major piece of equipment or tank etc. will have a separate coil circulation pump. This way you can maintain a uniform high rate of circulation through the jacket and set a jacket or coil temperature set-point to be maintained for each tank. Separate jacket circulation systems aren't always needed for very simple applications, but are a real advantage for sensitive products where the actual coil or jacket temperature is critical. An example might be a main cooling loop running at 25F so that cold stabilization can be done in various vessels, but at the same time it wouldn't be desirable to try to control a red ferment at 85F by trickling a little 25F fluid through the jacket, you would end up with an uneven jacket temperature, basically a little cold spot at the jacket inlet. I could go on and on all day, but don't want to bore people with this kind of stuff.



I think there would be a lot of us not considering it boring. Maybe over our heads butt not boring.


----------



## sour_grapes

Agree with Fred!


----------



## Chuck E

On a really small scale, you can wrap copper tubing around a beer keg, then insulate with fiberglass. What always eludes me is the chiller equipment and the control system. Where do you find cheap stuff that works?


----------



## mainshipfred

Chuck E said:


> On a really small scale, you can wrap copper tubing around a beer keg, then insulate with fiberglass. What always eludes me is the chiller equipment and the control system. Where do you find cheap stuff that works?



My thoughts would be a solenoid and valve connected to a T stat. Somehow though I would think a thermocouple would have to be installed in the tank. Stickman also referenced a pump and I'm not sure if that would be required to be able force the fluid through the additional coil if the unit pump doesn't have the capacity. Also if using glycol line size might have to be taken into consideration since when cooled I think it would be pretty thick. But I'm no expert.


----------



## sour_grapes

Chuck E said:


> On a really small scale, you can wrap copper tubing around a beer keg, then insulate with fiberglass. What always eludes me is the chiller equipment and the control system. Where do you find cheap stuff that works?



I have purchased used industrial chiller units from eBay in years past. They aren't exactly cheap, but sometimes you find a bargain.


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> I have purchased used industrial chiller units from eBay in years past. They aren't exactly cheap, but sometimes you find a bargain.



Why did you stop using them?


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> Why did you stop using them?



Oh, these purchases were for work. I was just suggesting a source.


----------



## NorCal

I’ve seen a few hydroponic (corrected) chillers come up on Craigslist. They are being used for indoor grows. I’ll start keeping my eye out again.


----------



## sour_grapes

NorCal said:


> I’ve seen a few hydrophobic chillers come up on Craigslist. They are being used for indoor grows. I’ll start keeping my eye out again.



Did you mean "hydroponic chiller"? I was intrigued by what a "hydrophobic chiller" could be, but I think it was a simple mistake, right?

On a related note, I went to eBay to see if my advice upthread was worth anything. I didn't see any inexpensive used chillers of the sort I had in mind, but there were a lot of inexpensive _new_, smaller chillers that were being marketed for cooling CO2 lasers used for fabrication. They were described as "thermolysis water chillers." I have no idea what could mean or what physical principle they are based upon. Unless they meant a regular chiller that is being used to cool a thermolysis system?


----------



## jsbeckton

Interesting. I work in the power plant business and in these applications a typical cooling system has just one circulating pump running with each “load” having a supply and return branch to/from the main loop. You can easily adjust the temp for each load by opening/closing the throttle valve for that particular load. Kinda works the same way that hot water radiators heat houses just on a larger scale.

Beer brewers often use a homemade “immersion chiller” of coiled copper pipe and just use cold tap water to cool down the wort quickly. The tricky part is that for a cold soak you typically need to get the must much cooler than your tap supply but I wonder if it wouldn’t be too difficult to just have 2 separate coils run in series. The first could be submerged in a bucket of ice water to get the tap closer to freezing and the second could be in the must to allow the now chilled water to remove heat.

Certainly not as efficient as working with a refrigerant but a lot easier and it’s only needed for a few days.


----------



## MiBor

I got a solid state recirculating chiller (like this: SSDchiller) off eBay for around $250 and I connected it to a stainless steel immersion coil (like this: coil) for $50.
It chills 6 gal of water to near 0 Celsius in an insulated tank in about 5 hours on the lowest setting using 27% glycol. I plan to use it in the fall for an extended cold soak of my red wine this year.


----------



## JoP

stickman said:


> I have run batches using delestage with and without an internal strainer. Without the strainer the 1.5 inch outlet on my tank will plug up, but can easily be poked through from the top with a plastic rod, and once flowing freely the tank will drain without trouble. The seeds are easily removed from the bottom of the receiving pail after dumping the wine back to the fermenter. I've played around with removing the seeds in a few past batches, but I prefer a fairly tannic wine and found that removing seeds, at least with the grapes I'm using, wasn't the direction I wanted to go. I don't really want to have to add tannin from a bag. Maybe the seeds are more of an issue with extended maceration, certainly the seeds may be a problem if they are under ripe, or possibly removal is beneficial for the early to release fruit forward wine discussed in the article. Once again it comes down to the type of grapes on hand and the wine style you are after. I'll admit my wines are a bit rustic and they do take a few years in bottle to come around.


Hello Stickman,
Where did you get the drain valve?
I will try it if I can install a large diameter valve on my 44 Gal fermenter
Thanks


----------



## stickman

@JoP The valve on my stainless vessel is an industrial ball valve that came with the purchase, it works well, but is not ideal as it is difficult to clean. It would be better to use sanitary type fittings and valves if possible; I just haven't changed mine yet. Sanitary fittings are available from various online stores, I've been using St Pat's of Texas. For the Brute, I just use John Guest speedfit style PEX fittings and valves available from most home stores; these can be assembled and disassembled easily by hand.





__





St. Patrick's of Texas






www.stpats.com


----------



## JoP

stickman said:


> @JoP The valve on my stainless vessel is an industrial ball valve that came with the purchase, it works well, but is not ideal as it is difficult to clean. It would be better to use sanitary type fittings and valves if possible; I just haven't changed mine yet. Sanitary fittings are available from various online stores, I've been using St Pat's of Texas. For the Brute, I just use John Guest speedfit style PEX fittings and valves available from most home stores; these can be assembled and disassembled easily by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St. Patrick's of Texas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stpats.com


Thank you Stickman,

I never knew about St Pat's of Texas.

It looks like they carry lots of things others don’t, but a bit pricy perhaps.

I was able to find an affordable valve assembly on US Plastics online store site.

It is made up of three components, all FDA approved for potable water.

The prices are not bad also:



Bulkhead #16798

2" Loose PVC Tank Fitting with Santoprene™ Gaskets - 2-7/8" Hole Size | U.S. Plastic Corp.

Nipple #27095

2" Pipe x 2" Length Close Threaded Pipe Nipple | U.S. Plastic Corp.

Ball Valve #19769

2" Threaded CWV PVC Ball Valve | U.S. Plastic Corp.

I also found this article about The Delestage method for home winemakers on WineMakerMag.com by Daniel Pambianchi:

Delestage Fermentation: Techniques - WineMakerMag.com



In order to do this of course you need to raise the fermenter a couple of feet, but with a 44 Gal. fermenter weighing around 200 Lbs., I’m not Shure how.

If anyone has an idea how to achieve this in a garage with some sort of mechanical or hydraulic lift, please let me know.

Cheers


----------



## stickman

There are many different ways to do it, as simple or as complicated as you like. I just put the Brutes on a table made of a piece of plywood sitting on empty pails, and dump the must buckets into the Brute once it's all set up.


----------



## purpletongue

I'm going to contribute as a total newb. Apologies upfront. From what I've read in the book on home wine making I'm reading. It looks like you have fairly extensive techniques to bring that quality up. What's reiterated over and over in my book is quality of fruit. Once you know what you're doing. The end product is closely coupled with the starting product. When you talk about matching a $25 dollar commercial vintage, you might be reaching the limits of what you can do on a small scale. That being said, how much equipment do you have when it comes to acid testing (malo / tartaric)? Have you ever taken one of your hard worked wines for testing before bottling at a winery? It costs but it may be beneficial to you considering the level you're working at.

I'd say to hit that level of vintage commercial wines, aging is key, good fruit, perhaps barrel aging though I know that's a contentious subject. Again, I'd just go back to starting with the best fruit you can lay your hands on and then aging your wine. Perhaps carboy aging so you can taste it as it matures. I'm intrigued by the idea of blending. But my instinct is that won't necessarily get one to that $25 level. Unless you have the skill and varietals to work with like they do in Bordeaux. (*I'm a newb so take my comments with that in mind) Very interesting techniques you're employing though! Makes my kit stuff look like those beginner lego sets that just make a simple little car with a lego man.


----------



## NorCal

purpletongue said:


> I'm going to contribute as a total newb. Apologies upfront. From what I've read in the book on home wine making I'm reading. It looks like you have fairly extensive techniques to bring that quality up. What's reiterated over and over in my book is quality of fruit. Once you know what you're doing. The end product is closely coupled with the starting product. When you talk about matching a $25 dollar commercial vintage, you might be reaching the limits of what you can do on a small scale. That being said, how much equipment do you have when it comes to acid testing (malo / tartaric)? Have you ever taken one of your hard worked wines for testing before bottling at a winery? It costs but it may be beneficial to you considering the level you're working at.
> 
> I'd say to hit that level of vintage commercial wines, aging is key, good fruit, perhaps barrel aging though I know that's a contentious subject. Again, I'd just go back to starting with the best fruit you can lay your hands on and then aging your wine. Perhaps carboy aging so you can taste it as it matures. I'm intrigued by the idea of blending. But my instinct is that won't necessarily get one to that $25 level. Unless you have the skill and varietals to work with like they do in Bordeaux. (*I'm a newb so take my comments with that in mind) Very interesting techniques you're employing though! Makes my kit stuff look like those beginner lego sets that just make a simple little car with a lego man.


Great post! Lots of ground to cover. Good fruit, without question is #1. It really should have been the first on my list, but I didn’t even mention it. I did however mention in a few post later:

_I have the luxury of living in a community that sells grapes to the local wineries. I get the exact same grapes that are sold the wineries. @4scoreand I have also built relationships with other commercial vineyards and pool our needs to buy grapes by the ton. For me, I can take access to fruit off the table._

As far as measurement equipment to measure the key items, I have a Vinemetrica 300, the same equipment as small wineries. I measure malo/tartaric to assure mlf completion. I also have access to the same labs. 

I age in the same 60 gallon oak barrels (I buy mine from them) although they are 3rd year French oak and I add spirals to equal a second year barrel.
I do have access to all Bordeaux grape varieties; my current barrel is Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sauv and Petit Verdot.

Is there a limit that can be done on a small home winemaker scale? Not sure there is. I think it is a matter of what you are willing to invest in time, $ and having the desire to achieve your goal. 

Since I know and talk to commercial winemakers, who are pursuing that 98 point wine spectator wine I have a sense for what they deem important. We are in deep discussion on how much fruit to drop right now (beautiful clusters cut off just to reduce the lb/vine) which goes back to your initial point of having the best fruit possible.

Actual clusters in vineyard , pic taken a few days ago


----------



## stickman

I can only imagine that dropping fruit has to be one of the toughest things to do, for me it would be better to not watch. On the other hand, I hear plenty of winemakers say it's better to have a little of something good, than a lot of nothing special.


----------



## Snafflebit

stickman said:


> I can only imagine that dropping fruit has to be one of the toughest things to do, for me it would be better to not watch. On the other hand, I hear plenty of winemakers say it's better to have a little of something good, than a lot of nothing special.


The first few plants hurts then it is “oh well” . I have been told if you are dropping more than 20%, there was something wrong done with the pruning or you are doing something wrong.


----------



## capablanca

It's an excellent topic from which I learned a lot. I have the chance to get grapes from a small but good quality wine producer. Although the wine I produced has been better than many commercial wines so far(at least for being balanced), it is below the complexity and aroma strenght of the winery's own bottles, even the cheapest ones that are not barrel aged and sold around 6 USD . Same grapes, but not the same result. The main difference should be cold maceration and temp control as pointed in the previous posts. This year I am trying a new approach hoping that I can compensate the lack of professional fermenting equipment and controlled enviroment: I splitted 200 kg merlot to batches and trying a careful wild fermantation approach on 60-70 kg of them. (24 hours on their own without kmeta, then adding Pied de Cuve like starters made from 6 different market grape samples on their wild ferment for a week and selected according to the result) Although a few days is left to press, my initial impression is that wild ferments are more "tasteful and interesting" compared to the remaining batches fermented with RC212 and IOCR9008.


----------



## Chuck E

@capablanca 
Are you using enzymes in your musts?


----------



## capablanca

Chuck E said:


> @capablanca
> Are you using enzymes in your musts?


There is only one aroma enzyme product available for sale locally (for home brewers at least). It is kind of a no name product, so I refrain using it.


----------



## DPCellars

NorCal said:


> CA requires min wage $12, going up $1 hr each year for the next 3 years. Love the weather, not fond of the politics.



We have assisted a local Lodi winery in the past. They said that because of California laws, they were not able to allow us to help, for the reasons stated by @NorCal. Instead, they make it a special event for club members. Those who attend are charged a fee to participate.

Darn near went broke when I helped pick some Zin. At a staggering fee of $0.25, I almost had to hitch a ride home. Lol


----------



## Snafflebit

DPCellars said:


> We have assisted a local Lodi winery in the past. They said that because of California laws, they were not able to allow us to help, for the reasons stated by @NorCal. Instead, they make it a special event for club members. Those who attend are charged a fee to participate.



It is the side effect of requiring health coverage under Covered California now. Volunteer sorters at my favorite winery in Livermore had to be put on the payroll. so of course most were let go.


----------



## Rocktop

What an incredible thread! 
Now considering a cold soak for my upcoming Pinot Noir batch.
Question, after the crush and before the cold soak, would you SO2 then or after it comes out of the chiller and warming up for for fermenting?


----------



## DPCellars

Snafflebit said:


> It is the side effect of requiring health coverage under Covered California now. Volunteer sorters at my favorite winery in Livermore had to be put on the payroll. so of course most were let go.



So sad to hear this. There are workarounds (as mentioned in my post reply). Unfortunately, I believe they would only work with the smaller boutique wineries who do not need the volume of the larger wineries.


----------



## DPCellars

Rocktop said:


> What an incredible thread!
> Now considering a cold soak for my upcoming Pinot Noir batch.
> Question, after the crush and before the cold soak, would you SO2 then or after it comes out of the chiller and warming up for for fermenting?



I'm only in my third season of attempting winemaking. I hear the level they are talking in this forum and my eyes roll back into my head. I have a LONG way to go and do much to learn. I better keep reading.


----------



## NorCal

Rocktop said:


> What an incredible thread!
> Now considering a cold soak for my upcoming Pinot Noir batch.
> Question, after the crush and before the cold soak, would you SO2 then or after it comes out of the chiller and warming up for for fermenting?


I SO2 right at crush to kill any bacteria and wild yeast. Don’t over do it. Make sure the yeast you plan on using can tolerate some level of SO2.


----------



## Rocktop

Ok thank you NorCal. A quick check of my planned fermentation spreadsheet (which I downloaded from a link you provided sometime ago, thank you) I planned on using BM4X4 for my pinot red and ICV-GRE for the rose i will be making via saignee.


----------



## crushday

NorCal said:


> I know the owner of a great winery and the winemaker well and he has tasted and given me feedback on my wines a number of times. I told him I was trying to emulate his Viognier last year. He asked if I was able to ferment for three months, like he does. That is what really confirmed in my mind what I believe is the biggest differentiating factor.


NorCal, do you know the fermentation temp that would result in a 90 day fermentation period? I’m very curious...


----------



## NorCal

crushday said:


> NorCal, do you know the fermentation temp that would result in a 90 day fermentation period? I’m very curious...


I can find out but my guess is that a lot of that time is prior to starting fermentation and bringing the temp up at the minimum level to keep fermentation going.


----------



## crushday

NorCal said:


> I can find out but my guess is that a lot of that time is prior to starting fermentation and bringing the temp up at the minimum level to keep fermentation going.


I'm satisfied with your guess as it makes sense. I'm wondering because I'm going to be getting some Pinot Noir soon and I want to give this project the best opportunity for success. My impression of PN is that it's finicky and presents fermentation challenges - especially to extract nice color, body and flavor profile while not leaving it off-dry. It's one of favorite varieties and I'm so much looking forward to working it soon. I've had both really great Pinot and really bad. My personal iterations have tended toward the latter. But, not from grapes as I recently transitioned from wine kits.

I'm in research mode over it...


----------



## NorCal

crushday said:


> I'm satisfied with your guess as it makes sense. I'm wondering because I'm going to be getting some Pinot Noir soon and I want to give this project the best opportunity for success. My impression of PN is that it's finicky and presents fermentation challenges - especially to extract nice color, body and flavor profile while not leaving it off-dry. It's one of favorite varieties and I'm so much looking forward to working it soon. I've had both really great Pinot and really bad. My personal iterations have tended toward the latter. But, not from grapes as I recently transitioned from wine kits.
> 
> I'm in research mode over it...


I don’t have experience with it, but I’d almost approach it like making a white, except ferment on the skins. I’ve always wanted to make Pinot Noir, but my warm climate doesn’t support it....hmmm maybe a Pacific Northwest road trip in my future


----------



## crushday

NorCal said:


> hmmm maybe a Pacific Northwest road trip in my future


As an idea, next year, when I come down for my ration of CF I'll bring you some frozen grape must from the Willamette Valley. Color extraction will be easier since they'll be frozen. You'll need a way to "gently" ferment them by keeping the temp manageable. You have a year to figure that out. It's a standing offer... I think you have a basement, right? If so, problem solved.


----------



## NorCal

crushday said:


> As an idea, next year, when I come down for my ration of CF I'll bring you some frozen grape must from the Willamette Valley. Color extraction will be easier since they'll be frozen. You'll need a way to "gently" ferment them by keeping the temp manageable. You have a year to figure that out. It's a standing offer... I think you have a basement, right? If so, problem solved.


Thanks @crushday. Great offer, I appreciate it. I’m already committed next year to do a GSM barrel, but maybe the year after.


----------



## NorCal

I was given 100 pounds of beautiful Grenache grapes and didn’t want to make a mess with my destemmer. I knew a winemaker (now bonded) that was crushing today and I asked if I could run mine through his equipment at the end. He said yes. His equipment was on point. I will definitely be figuring out how to sort AFTER crushing the grapes next year. Another small step to close the gap!


----------



## Boatboy24

Interesting. I think you should just invest in one of those optical sorters that kick out the bad grapes with a blast of air.


----------



## NorCal

A quick video of the destemmer, shake table and sorting line. The take away is that all the small stems and jacks are taken out of the ferment. This can only improve the quality of the finished wine.


----------



## jsbeckton

Interesting. I wonder if most wineries bother with this level of stem removal or not? Thought I read somewhere that as long as you removed 90% the remainder wouldn’t hurt anything. About to crush next week, thanks for triggering my OCD!


----------



## Ajmassa

jsbeckton said:


> Interesting. I wonder if most wineries bother with this level of stem removal or not? Thought I read somewhere that as long as you removed 90% the remainder wouldn’t hurt anything. About to crush next week, thanks for triggering my OCD!


I’m thinking it’s multiple little nuances like this when all combined together can be the difference between an 89 point wine and a 95+.


----------



## Ajmassa

Came across a little article with the Caldwell Bineyards winemaker describing their process. Thought it was interesting to see how a high end joint does it. They give a cold soak before AF and at the end fill the headspace with gas till cap drops. Also noticed he does not add acid yet is able keeps the so2 ppm low despite ph around 4. 
Anyway, here’s the link WBM_2019_01_January


----------



## cmason1957

Interesting native year ferment. Don't see that very often in commercial wineries in America.


----------



## ibglowin

I would say 50% of the wines I buy from WA State each year are fermented from native yeast. And that is a fair amount of wine.


----------



## ZebraB

interesting about adding dry ice directly into the must to keep the temp down for initial cold soak. I would have been scared that it would leave some imparting taint, but guess not. 

Thanks for sharing


----------



## JoP

Ajmassa said:


> Came across a little article with the Caldwell Bineyards winemaker describing their process. Thought it was interesting to see how a high end joint does it. They give a cold soak before AF and at the end fill the headspace with gas till cap drops. Also noticed he does not add acid yet is able keeps the so2 ppm low despite ph around 4.
> Anyway, here’s the link WBM_2019_01_January
> View attachment 66350


Hello Ajmassa,
I can’t access this article, it says:
“The publisher chose not to allow downloads for this publication”
How did you access it?
Thanks


----------



## Ajmassa

JoP said:


> Hello Ajmassa,
> I can’t access this article, it says:
> “The publisher chose not to allow downloads for this publication”
> How did you access it?
> Thanks


Yea it was a funky link. But works on my iphone. No downloading needed. It’s just like a digitial version of the magazine. Wine Business Monthly from Jan ‘19. That’s why I included a screenshot showing the main part about the winemaking. Here’s all of it. Hope the quality transfers and able to be read.


----------



## NorCal

One of the major limitations noted for the home winemaker is the ability to cost effectively and accurately control fermentation temperature. One of the major benefits to me is that the lower temperature extends the fermentation time, providing more time on skin for better color and flavor extraction, and maintaining as much fruit flavor as possible. My typical red fermentation:

Day 0 25 brix, GoFerm, innoculate yeast
Day 1 22 brix, sign of fermentation, add FermK
Day 2 15 brix usually 1/3 done late in day, add FermK
Day 3 7 brix,
Day 4 4 brix
Day 5 <1 brix 
Day 6 Press

One of the workarounds I have tried in extending the fermentation time is reducing the amount of starting yeast. I can say this has been successful in extending fermentation by 2-4 days. I've been adding 65% -70% of the recommended grams of yeast. 

This time, I may have pushed my luck or found the limit of what I should do. I added around 50% of what I would normally add (.6 grams of yeast / gallon of must) This is a fermentation that I am doing for a Bordeaux blend, that is for the heavily weighted to Merlot. Here are my notes thus far.

Day 0 26 brix, GoFerm, innoculate yeast
Day 1 23 brix, sign of fermentation, add 50% FermK
Day 2 20 brix 
Day 3 15 brix add 50% FermK
Day 4 14.5 brix
Day 5 11.5 brix 
Day 6 9.6 brix
Day 7 7.8 brix
Day 8 6.2 brix
Day 9 4.8 brix (added a 25% dose of FermK)
Day 10 3.7 brix
Day 11 2.8 brix (where we are now, will updated this post)
Day 12 1.2 brix
Day 13 .8 brix
Day 14 .2 brix. Success!

Cab Franc fermentation temps have stayed between 78-84 degrees, using Avante yeast. While looking at my numbers as I type, I would say they look good. However, I've been sweating this one quite a bit. I have been taking brix measurements with precision hydrometers and there have been a few instances where the brix level did not changed in a 12 hour span. I thought for sure the ferment was stuck more than once. I'm hoping to press on day 13, which will be my longest ever ferment for a red by 3 days.

While the recommendation of how much yeast/gallon of must varies some, most recommend 1.2 grams of yeast per gallon of must (brix >24.5). Avante has a recommended range. I did speak with a Fermentation Specialist at Scott's lab on what is happening biologically and she thinks that the ferment isn't reaching a "critical biomass" and that because it is taking this long that there are other organisms competing for the available nutrients. She saw this as a risky way to achieve my objectives, with the risks being a stuck fermentation, oxidation, off flavors from non-sacc yeast, acetic acid spoilage. She recommended looking into enzymes, EXV and sticking to an efficient fermentation schedule.

Will I do it again? Probably not, but hopefully this wine will finish out and be nice bold and flavorful wine.

Note how dark this wine is for a Cab Franc!


----------



## Ajmassa

I would think that technique would just extend the lag phase—not slow down the entire thing. That would bother me as well. Hopefully not too stressed and all works out. Extremely useful info you shared.

I have been rehydrating my yeast with GoFerm and mixing into the must since starting grape wines. But for the 1st time w/ grapes I just sprinkled the yeast on top and left it be. This extended my lag phase by a full day I believe. Will do this again in a couple weeks. and also going for a cold soak to try and get 10+ total days on skins. Sounds like 70% yeast could help too (NOT 50%!). Thanks for sharing all that


----------



## BI81

Came across a very interesting article on various winemaking techniques and the impact on phenolic extraction.

A Review of the Effect of Winemaking Techniques on Phenolic Extraction in Red Wines 

I haven’t made it through the entire paper yet, but figured some would find it relevant to this thread and most of our goals in making the best wine possible.

The main points I’ve taken away so far are that cold soaking prior to alcoholic fermentation may actually be detrimental to long term color stability, and the impact that fermentation temperature has on extraction is extremely important.


----------



## BI81

NorCal said:


> One of the major limitations noted for the home winemaker is the ability to cost effectively and accurately control fermentation temperature. One of the major benefits to me is that the lower temperature extends the fermentation time, providing more time on skin for better color and flavor extraction, and maintaining as much fruit flavor as possible. My typical red fermentation:
> 
> Day 0 25 brix, GoFerm, innoculate yeast
> Day 1 22 brix, sign of fermentation, add FermK
> Day 2 15 brix usually 1/3 done late in day, add FermK
> Day 3 7 brix,
> Day 4 4 brix
> Day 5 <1 brix
> Day 6 Press
> 
> One of the workarounds I have tried in extending the fermentation time is reducing the amount of starting yeast. I can say this has been successful in extending fermentation by 2-4 days. I've been adding 65% -70% of the recommended grams of yeast.
> 
> This time, I may have pushed my luck or found the limit of what I should do. I added around 50% of what I would normally add (.6 grams of yeast / gallon of must) This is a fermentation that I am doing for a Bordeaux blend, that is for the heavily weighted to Merlot. Here are my notes thus far.
> 
> Day 0 26 brix, GoFerm, innoculate yeast
> Day 1 23 brix, sign of fermentation, add 50% FermK
> Day 2 20 brix
> Day 3 15 brix add 50% FermK
> Day 4 14.5 brix
> Day 5 11.5 brix
> Day 6 9.6 brix
> Day 7 7.8 brix
> Day 8 6.2 brix
> Day 9 4.8 brix (added a 25% dose of FermK)
> Day 10 3.7 brix
> Day 11 2.8 brix (where we are now, will updated this post)
> Day 12 TBD
> Day 13 TBD
> Day 14 TBD
> 
> Cab Franc fermentation temps have stayed between 78-84 degrees, using Avante yeast. While looking at my numbers as I type, I would say they look good. However, I've been sweating this one quite a bit. I have been taking brix measurements with precision hydrometers and there have been a few instances where the brix level did not changed in a 12 hour span. I thought for sure the ferment was stuck more than once. I'm hoping to press on day 13, which will be my longest ever ferment for a red by 3 days.
> 
> While the recommendation of how much yeast/gallon of must varies some, most recommend 1.2 grams of yeast per gallon of must (brix >24.5). Avante has a recommended range. I did speak with a Fermentation Specialist at Scott's lab on what is happening biologically and she thinks that the ferment isn't reaching a "critical biomass" and that because it is taking this long that there are other organisms competing for the available nutrients. She saw this as a risky way to achieve my objectives, with the risks being a stuck fermentation, oxidation, off flavors from non-sacc yeast, acetic acid spoilage. She recommended looking into enzymes, EXV and sticking to an efficient fermentation schedule.
> 
> Will I do it again? Probably not, but hopefully this wine will finish out and be nice bold and flavorful wine.


There’s an Inside Winemaking podcast where Jim Duane talks about inoculating with half of the recommended dose because he has intrinsic feelings that yeast companies (and all companies for that matter) are trying to sell more yeast. He makes incredible wines and hasn’t had any issues doing so, so take that for what it’s worth. I wish I could remember which episode it was so I could reference but my brain is failing me at the moment.


----------



## BI81

Ajmassa said:


> I would think that technique would just extend the lag phase—not slow down the entire thing. That would bother me as well. Hopefully not too stressed and all works out. Extremely useful info you shared.
> 
> I have been rehydrating my yeast with GoFerm and mixing into the must since starting grape wines. But for the 1st time w/ grapes I just sprinkled the yeast on top and left it be. This extended my lag phase by a full day I believe. Will do this again in a couple weeks. and also going for a cold soak to try and get 10+ total days on skins. Sounds like 70% yeast could help too (NOT 50%!). Thanks for sharing all that


I don’t know that I’d be comfortable slacking on yeast nutrition with out YAN numbers, the last thing you want is volatile sulfur compounds in your wine. But, if you’ve got good grapes the results could be an amazing wine with added complexity, just a gamble and another risk/reward decision to be made.


----------



## NorCal

I have decided that I am going to add a post crush sorting step to my process next season. I decided to move forward on the project after pulling this much stem material out of the 400 pounds of Cab Sauv I recently crushed. I did not use my crusher and this amount seems quite excessive, but it did drive home the point that by removing this material, it should improve the quality of my wine.



Here is my plan. Since my method is to have a macrobin of grapes in the back of my truck, I will use my current sorting chute (maybe shorten) for the pre-sort inspection. Will need a tall step stool for people to stand on to do the pre-sort.


I will need to create a stand for the destemmer to sit on and then build a post crush sorting chute that will dump into a bucket. The bucket can then be dumped into another macrobin, my Wineasy or Brutes for fermentation. The height of the post crush chute should allow for chairs. I'll probably use a donor folding table for legs and shorten one end an inch or so. 



Any thoughts or feedback?


----------



## GR!

I think it’s a great idea! This past crush, I sorted right off the chute and got a similar amount of stems out of 300lbs of grapes. Although its probably not as feasible for the quantities you're doing, here is my setup...




My wife stands at the top (where I am in the pic) and sorts the grapes and tosses them into the hopper. I stand to the right of the lower brute and crank with my right hand and grab stems with the left. Not bad for 300lbs, not recommended for 3,000lbs!


----------



## Boatboy24

Curious how the grapes will make their way down the post-crush chute. Assume it's gravity, but wondering how much help they'l need. Do you picture a person on each side, plucking stems and pushing grapes down the chute?


----------



## stickman

Like a craps table with those rakes.


----------



## GR!

It'll be a "craps chute"!


----------



## mainshipfred

I think the chute needs a vibrator of some kind.


----------



## NorCal

I envision gravity will take the juice and a push by the sorter(s) will slide the grapes down the now crapless chute. It will definitely add some time or labor to get the job done. Hopefully this Covid thing will be behind us by next season and I can get back to inviting friends and family.


----------



## Renegade.Rich

Hi NorCal and others,

I read that this thread is about what the professional wine maker is doing that the amateur is not. In my wine journey I have made the step from amateur to professional. I am wondering if people here have thought of doing similar. Things I have found that are different are:-

- taking risks
- getting financial backing
- sharing
- a strong eye on the marketing in much of what you are doing
- working at scale
- cold temperatures!
- becoming a jack of all trades
- belief in yourself and your product

You can find some of the story for me and my partner among the main articles and blogs at Renegade and Longton .


----------



## Rocktop

On the topic of stem removal, I am happy to say my DYI crusher destemmer worked a charm and removed more stems then we have done before . Little to none in the must.


----------



## GR!

Renegade.Rich said:


> Hi NorCal and others,
> 
> I read that this thread is about what the professional wine maker is doing that the amateur is not. In my wine journey I have made the step from amateur to professional. I am wondering if people here have thought of doing similar. Things I have found that are different are:-
> 
> - taking risks
> - getting financial backing
> - sharing
> - a strong eye on the marketing in much of what you are doing
> - working at scale
> - cold temperatures!
> - becoming a jack of all trades
> - belief in yourself and your product
> 
> You can find some of the story for me and my partner among the main articles and blogs at Renegade and Longton .



I was always curious how disgorging works on a commercial scale


----------



## Rice_Guy

consider ten or twelve inch concrete block, it can go away when crush is done


NorCal said:


> ‘Will need a tall step stool for people to stand on ‘
> I will need to create a stand for the destemmer to sit on and then build
> Any thoughts or feedback?


----------



## NorCal

Item 1 of 3 has been constructed from leftover wood and wheels off of a harbor freight furniture dolly. This raises the destemmer 10 inches. Not the prettiest, but it should stay in place and make the destemmer more mobile.


----------



## 1d10t

So, the de-stemmer is the red machine? The grapes come out of that cutout and roll down the red sheet metal? Just trying to picture how that works.


----------



## BI81

NorCal said:


> One of the major limitations noted for the home winemaker is the ability to cost effectively and accurately control fermentation temperature. One of the major benefits to me is that the lower temperature extends the fermentation time, providing more time on skin for better color and flavor extraction, and maintaining as much fruit flavor as possible. My typical red fermentation:
> 
> Day 0 25 brix, GoFerm, innoculate yeast
> Day 1 22 brix, sign of fermentation, add FermK
> Day 2 15 brix usually 1/3 done late in day, add FermK
> Day 3 7 brix,
> Day 4 4 brix
> Day 5 <1 brix
> Day 6 Press
> 
> One of the workarounds I have tried in extending the fermentation time is reducing the amount of starting yeast. I can say this has been successful in extending fermentation by 2-4 days. I've been adding 65% -70% of the recommended grams of yeast.
> 
> This time, I may have pushed my luck or found the limit of what I should do. I added around 50% of what I would normally add (.6 grams of yeast / gallon of must) This is a fermentation that I am doing for a Bordeaux blend, that is for the heavily weighted to Merlot. Here are my notes thus far.
> 
> Day 0 26 brix, GoFerm, innoculate yeast
> Day 1 23 brix, sign of fermentation, add 50% FermK
> Day 2 20 brix
> Day 3 15 brix add 50% FermK
> Day 4 14.5 brix
> Day 5 11.5 brix
> Day 6 9.6 brix
> Day 7 7.8 brix
> Day 8 6.2 brix
> Day 9 4.8 brix (added a 25% dose of FermK)
> Day 10 3.7 brix
> Day 11 2.8 brix (where we are now, will updated this post)
> Day 12 1.2 brix
> Day 13 .8 brix
> Day 14 .2 brix. Success!
> 
> Cab Franc fermentation temps have stayed between 78-84 degrees, using Avante yeast. While looking at my numbers as I type, I would say they look good. However, I've been sweating this one quite a bit. I have been taking brix measurements with precision hydrometers and there have been a few instances where the brix level did not changed in a 12 hour span. I thought for sure the ferment was stuck more than once. I'm hoping to press on day 13, which will be my longest ever ferment for a red by 3 days.
> 
> While the recommendation of how much yeast/gallon of must varies some, most recommend 1.2 grams of yeast per gallon of must (brix >24.5). Avante has a recommended range. I did speak with a Fermentation Specialist at Scott's lab on what is happening biologically and she thinks that the ferment isn't reaching a "critical biomass" and that because it is taking this long that there are other organisms competing for the available nutrients. She saw this as a risky way to achieve my objectives, with the risks being a stuck fermentation, oxidation, off flavors from non-sacc yeast, acetic acid spoilage. She recommended looking into enzymes, EXV and sticking to an efficient fermentation schedule.
> 
> Will I do it again? Probably not, but hopefully this wine will finish out and be nice bold and flavorful wine.
> 
> Note how dark this wine is for a Cab Franc!
> View attachment 66671


@NorCal what ambient temp is your cold room during fermentation? This is my first year fermenting in a similar set up in the garage “micro winery” vs the dining room. I’ve got a half ton of Cab Franc fermenting with Avante. Ambient temps have been in the 68-70F range through fermentation with must temps peaking at 80F. Today is day 6 and the must is down only down to 11.5 Brix (25Brix initial), by far the slowest fermentation I’ve ever had, and despite it being intentional it is extremely nerve racking!!


----------



## BI81

On a side note this is the first year I’ve attempted multiple fermentation temperatures (not must temps, only ambient) and I’ve been amazed at the impact temperature has on fermentation kinetics.

Some unexpected Pinot Noir came available within a days notice and I had to use Avante (it was all I had on hand) and fermented in the dining room at 72-75 ambient, the Avante ate through all of the sugar and finished fermentation in 3 days (the fastest I’ve ever experienced).

The Cab Franc mentioned earlier is on day 6 and only a bit over half way (11.5 Brix) fermenting at 68-70 ambient.

And a rose pulled from a saignee of the same grapes is fermenting at 59-60F and it is only down to 22 Brix (this was inoculated with Rhône 4600 which may also have an impact).

So...depending on your risk tolerance dropping ambient temp seems to have a significant impact on fermentation time even when controlling must temps directly though jacketed tanks isn’t an option.


----------



## NorCal

BI81 said:


> On a side note this is the first year I’ve attempted multiple fermentation temperatures (not must temps, only ambient) and I’ve been amazed at the impact temperature has on fermentation kinetics.
> 
> Some unexpected Pinot Noir came available within a days notice and I had to use Avante (it was all I had on hand) and fermented in the dining room at 72-75 ambient, the Avante ate through all of the sugar and finished fermentation in 3 days (the fastest I’ve ever experienced).
> 
> The Cab Franc mentioned earlier is on day 6 and only a bit over half way (11.5 Brix) fermenting at 68-70 ambient.
> 
> And a rose pulled from a saignee of the same grapes is fermenting at 59-60F and it is only down to 22 Brix (this was inoculated with Rhône 4600 which may also have an impact).
> 
> So...depending on your risk tolerance dropping ambient temp seems to have a significant impact on fermentation time even when controlling must temps directly though jacketed tanks isn’t an option.


Interesting. I went and looked at my records and this was my 20th ferment with Avante yeast, ranging from 100-2000 pounds Of grapes. The cab franc this year was 14 days to ferment dry. The longest ferment regardless of temperature or how much yeast added (even in 67 degree ambient) had been 10 days, most all 7 days or less.


----------



## heatherd

cmason1957 said:


> The other interesting thing I read was homeworkers rack to often. I have sort of been thinking that same thing and am considering cutting back to every 6 or maybe even 9 months while bulk aging for longer.
> 
> And go long on MLF, the rush to get it under sulfite isn't a good thing.


I've been doing one after fermentation and one before bottling, adding 1/4 teaspoon kmeta every three months.


----------



## heatherd

4score said:


> 200 ppm isn't that high for me when trying to baby-sit 4.0 pH wine for > 18 months. We've been adjusting to 3.6 -3.7, but need to take our foot of the SO2 pedal a bit. 50 ppm was a common add. Going to aim for 20-30 going forward.


That makes sense - I'm going to reduce mine as well. Thinking 1/8 tsp every three months.


----------



## heatherd

mainshipfred said:


> There are so many schools of thought on a lot of these topics, except fruit flies, and I'm afraid I'll never be able to understand most of them either through reading or practice. I truly believe in @stickman's comment on the desired wine style. That along with our belief in a theory, successful past experiences or just the fear of changing will lead us in different directions with our decision making.
> 1. During fermentation both primary and secondary (MLF) I have no issue with the S shaped air locks. Once the wine has off gassed substantially I always use solid bungs, especially in barrels.
> 2 and 11. I also don't rack very often during bulk and I have been filtering my reds with a 5 um for the same reason as you, a clearer wine. You do introduce O2 while filtering but I just run argon through a sparging stone prior to bottling. Sometimes I take DO readings and sometimes not. Whites I filter with a 1 um.
> 3. This one is borderline for me, I recently took a 4.2 pH Viognier down to a 3.57 pre fermentation and it's pretty good and ready to bottle. But taking it down more then .4 kind of scares me.
> 4. I've not played much with cold soak or EM so I can't comment on that. I do however try to maintain 75-85 must temps for reds and 50-60 on whites.
> 5. I do as soft a punch down as I can for the tannin reason and feel 3 times a day is adequate.
> 6. No comment and the CD is not perfect. I just remove the visible stems as I punch down.
> 7. As much as I can find no reason not to I still do a post fermentation MLF. The carboys are filled to within a half inch and I let them sit 3 months to complete. I won't do the first test for 2 months. It then gets sulfited and waits it's turn in glass or goes in a barrel.
> 8. Same as you with regard to finishing in primary. I'm a big fan of multiple yeasts whether non H2S or not and will more than likely never change this. Just call me stubborn!
> 9. Never had much of a problem with this although I can't say any of my additives ever get that old except maybe yeast.
> 
> My add to the list is waiting for the wine to become somewhat finished prior to blending and almost always provide some type of blending. My thought is blending adds to the complexity and if blending wines that have just finished secondary or close to it you just don't know what qualities they will bring in 10-12 months.


@mainshipfred Which yeasts are you using for which wines?


----------



## heatherd

Ajmassa said:


> I would think that technique would just extend the lag phase—not slow down the entire thing. That would bother me as well. Hopefully not too stressed and all works out. Extremely useful info you shared.
> 
> I have been rehydrating my yeast with GoFerm and mixing into the must since starting grape wines. But for the 1st time w/ grapes I just sprinkled the yeast on top and left it be. This extended my lag phase by a full day I believe. Will do this again in a couple weeks. and also going for a cold soak to try and get 10+ total days on skins. Sounds like 70% yeast could help too (NOT 50%!). Thanks for sharing all that


I've always been sprinkling the yeast, hadn't thought to add 70% of it.


----------



## heatherd

BI81 said:


> I don’t know that I’d be comfortable slacking on yeast nutrition with out YAN numbers, the last thing you want is volatile sulfur compounds in your wine. But, if you’ve got good grapes the results could be an amazing wine with added complexity, just a gamble and another risk/reward decision to be made.


To me, it would be interesting to compare, even on a small scale, using 100% of the yeast with no nutrients, versus 70% of the yeast with nutrients, versus 50% with nutrients to get a sense of the impacts on the ferment.


----------



## purpletongue

NorCal said:


> Great post! Lots of ground to cover. Good fruit, without question is #1. It really should have been the first on my list, but I didn’t even mention it. I did however mention in a few post later:



Sorry for delayed reply. World's been crazy, hence myself. Thx for appreciating my post!

I admit you're correct and I'm wrong. There is no reason a home winemaker can't hit that $25 mark. Think about the beginning of commercial wine making. Those early commercial wineries were asking the opposite question: How do I get my bulk, big volume commercial wine to taste like my Nonno's home cellared stuff? From that viewpoint, I admit I was in err. You can absolutely reach the best pinnacle of wine with very little capital, at home. Such is the history of wine and the grape. And so we come back to the genesis of this culinary project. The starting fruit - which involves either scouting an exceptional grower or taking the leap of being a grower yourself, which is a whole new path of discovery to learn. It's known the starting fruit is the essence, but it should be noted that it is only as good as the practice and art that the wine maker employs. That I suppose is the balance. The fruit and the knowledge and art. It makes no sense to argue which is more important.

I hope you have had good luck with your crew of fellow winemakers. I have no doubt with your dedication, which is evident, you will surely reach that level of exceptionalism you desire. When you do. Treasure that moment, and perhaps don't even share it. Just keep it to yourself and your closest friends and family. Such is the rhythms of life, and there is a special truth and authenticity to your creation that is shared privately, in humility. I love this idea of winemaking. It is both social and creative. It is an artistic symbiosis with the earth and the vine.


----------



## jsbeckton

I know that it’s not practical to control temp on a large scale but have you tried to isolate this variable on a small scale to see what difference it makes?

For example, on a 100gal batch take 5g and ferment that in a controlled setting like a chest freezer. Once these fermentation’s have completed you can compare the two to see if this is the variable that is making the biggest difference.

Just a thought, and sorry if it’s already been discussed.


----------



## NorCal

jsbeckton said:


> I know that it’s not practical to control temp on a large scale but have you tried to isolate this variable on a small scale to see what difference it makes?
> 
> For example, on a 100gal batch take 5g and ferment that in a controlled setting like a chest freezer. Once these fermentation’s have completed you can compare the two to see if this is the variable that is making the biggest difference.
> 
> Just a thought, and sorry if it’s already been discussed.


I haven’t, but I’ve tried the same wine that was vs wasn’t cold soak, slow fermented, made by @4score. The cold/slow ferment had more fruit and flavor, which is what I’m pursuing in my wines.


----------



## heatherd

All this talk of measuring and adjusting pH pre-ferment made me remember I need new solutions for my meter... 

Great news! Hannah now offers individual packets, like yeast or MLB, of both of the calibration solutions and the cleaning solution. Each one is the right amount for the task. The calibration ones now have expiration dates, too:
"HI77400P is a set of premium quality pH 4.01 and 7.01 calibration buffer solutions. Each sachet has the lot number and expiration date stamped on it and is made of light block foil ensuring freshness each time one is opened. Hanna's line of calibration buffers have been specially formulated to have an expiration of 5 years from the date of manufacture for an unopened sachet. The HI77400P is for 5 sachets of pH 4.01 and 5 sachets of pH 7.01 with each containing 20 mL of buffer."




__





HI77400P pH 4.01 and 7.01 Calibration Buffer Sachets (10 x 20mL, 5 Each)


pH 4.01 and 7.01 calibration buffer with +/- 0.01 pH accuracy, 10 sachets single use with 20 mL of solution



www.hannainst.com








__





General Purpose Cleaning Solution (25 x 20 mL Sachets) - HI700601P


The HI700601P General Cleaning Solution is specially designed for agricultural applications that require the removal of deposits from electrode surfaces.



www.hannainst.com


----------



## Ajmassa

heatherd said:


> All this talk of measuring and adjusting pH pre-ferment made me remember I need new solutions for my meter...
> 
> Great news! Hannah now offers individual packets, like yeast or MLB, of both of the calibration solutions and the cleaning solution. Each one is the right amount for the task. The calibration ones now have expiration dates, too:
> "HI77400P is a set of premium quality pH 4.01 and 7.01 calibration buffer solutions. Each sachet has the lot number and expiration date stamped on it and is made of light block foil ensuring freshness each time one is opened. Hanna's line of calibration buffers have been specially formulated to have an expiration of 5 years from the date of manufacture for an unopened sachet. The HI77400P is for 5 sachets of pH 4.01 and 5 sachets of pH 7.01 with each containing 20 mL of buffer."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HI77400P pH 4.01 and 7.01 Calibration Buffer Sachets (10 x 20mL, 5 Each)
> 
> 
> pH 4.01 and 7.01 calibration buffer with +/- 0.01 pH accuracy, 10 sachets single use with 20 mL of solution
> 
> 
> 
> www.hannainst.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General Purpose Cleaning Solution (25 x 20 mL Sachets) - HI700601P
> 
> 
> The HI700601P General Cleaning Solution is specially designed for agricultural applications that require the removal of deposits from electrode surfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> www.hannainst.com


When I first started testing for ph I used these exclusively. They were the only buffers sold at my LHBS and I loaded up. I think they were around x2 packets for a buck. I loved them. I barely make a dent in the 16oz bottles before they expire. I still have some packets and use them occasionally. I would fold them over and tape shut getting more than just a one-time use out of it.


----------



## heatherd

Ajmassa said:


> When I first started testing for ph I used these exclusively. They were the only buffers sold at my LHBS and I loaded up. I think they were around x2 packets for a buck. I loved them. I barely make a dent in the 16oz bottles before they expire. I still have some packets and use them occasionally. I would fold them over and tape shut getting more than just a one-time use out of it.


I could only find the big bottles around here, so end up throwing all of it away for fear my tests would be tainted by bad chems.


----------



## mainshipfred

heatherd said:


> @mainshipfred Which yeasts are you using for which wines?



I really don't have a set yeast for any certain wines and it sometimes depends on what the grapes have to offer. For whites though I like to get as much pineapple, grapefruit or as much fruit as I can and per a personal preference I stay away from yeast that promote floral notes. For Bordeaux's varietals and even though they are not grown in France I tend to use the "D"s, D254, D80, D47 and D21 but also use BDX and Syrah. I also like a spicy wine especially in a Zin so a yeast that brings out these notes are always a consideration. But my favorite yeast of all is Vintner's Harvest R56 especially in big reds. I'm by no means an expert but I truly believe splitting batches and using multiple yeasts really enhances the complexity of the wine.


----------



## heatherd

mainshipfred said:


> I really don't have a set yeast for any certain wines and it sometimes depends on what the grapes have to offer. For whites though I like to get as much pineapple, grapefruit or as much fruit as I can and per a personal preference I stay away from yeast that promote floral notes. For Bordeaux's varietals and even though they are not grown in France I tend to use the "D"s, D254, D80, D47 and D21 but also use BDX and Syrah. I also like a spicy wine especially in a Zin so a yeast that brings out these notes are always a consideration. But my favorite yeast of all is Vintner's Harvest R56 especially in big reds. I'm by no means an expert but I truly believe splitting batches and using multiple yeasts really enhances the complexity of the wine.


Got it, I have used the "D"s as well. Haven't tried R56 yet but will add to my list.


----------



## jsbeckton

Well, I’m going on day 14 on my Lanza Cab split batch with D80 a d D254 (3 of those days cold soak). First time using either yeast and the ferment has been pretty slow and steady never getting above about 72F. Currently one is at 1.030 and the other is at 1.012.

It’s still dropping by about 5-10 points a day. Not sure if I should be happy about the long contact time or nervous it will get stuck! Anyone have experience with these yeasts? They were both fed with yeast nutrient at day 5.


----------



## NorCal

jsbeckton said:


> Well, I’m going on day 14 on my Lanza Cab split batch with D80 a d D254 (3 of those days cold soak). First time using either yeast and the ferment has been pretty slow and steady never getting above about 72F. Currently one is at 1.030 and the other is at 1.012.
> 
> It’s still dropping by about 5-10 points a day. Not sure if I should be happy about the long contact time or nervous it will get stuck! Anyone have experience with these yeasts? They were both fed with yeast nutrient at day 5.


Great combination of yeasts, have done these a few times. I’ve tasted individually, but the blend of the two have always tasted the best.


----------



## 4score

jsbeckton said:


> Well, I’m going on day 14 on my Lanza Cab split batch with D80 a d D254 (3 of those days cold soak). First time using either yeast and the ferment has been pretty slow and steady never getting above about 72F. Currently one is at 1.030 and the other is at 1.012.
> 
> It’s still dropping by about 5-10 points a day. Not sure if I should be happy about the long contact time or nervous it will get stuck! Anyone have experience with these yeasts? They were both fed with yeast nutrient at day 5.


The D80 & D254 combo is a great and popular combo. I did a controlled test a few years back and the differences were notable. One (can't remember which) had more of a nose expression than the other....but the other one (with less nose), had much brighter taste and fruit. Very interesting. We used these two once again this year on our Barbera.


----------



## jsbeckton

Just sampled my post fermentation with the split batch of D80 and D254. These taste like two completely different wines! One is more fruity and full bodied while the other is less fruity and more tannic. I tasted them along with the blend and after that the blend is really nice and complex so see why this is a popular combo. I may have just moved on from my standard BM 4x4 to this new combo.


----------



## David Lewis

jsbeckton said:


> Just sampled my post fermentation with the split batch of D80 and D254. These taste like two completely different wines! One is more fruity and full bodied while the other is less fruity and more tannic. I tasted them along with the blend and after that the blend is really nice and complex so see why this is a popular combo. I may have just moved on from my standard BM 4x4 to this new combo.


Funny that you mention this. I've been doing a D80 and D254 combo for a couple years now. This year I split my batches out to also include a batch with BM4x4. I just racked off the gross less today and combined my batches. Individually I though the BM4x4 was the best. But the D254/D80 combo was the winner. In the end I just threw them all together.


----------



## NorCal

I got back on the post crush sorter. I have the elevations so they work with my set-up (see post 250) ; from macrobin in the back of my truck, do a cluster sort, into the crusher/destemmer and the remove all the green bits that find their way through. I’m trying to emulate this, picture of the sorting conveyor at a local small winery.


My “conveyor” will be a vinyl table cloth (borrowed one for the test fit). The crushed grapes will be slid down hill into a bucket, that will then be tossed into the fermentation vessel. Adds time and labor, but another step to making better wine.


I made it so it all is bolted together, so it makes it easy to store.


----------



## purpletongue

NorCal said:


> I made it so it all is bolted together, so it makes it easy to store.


Nice build! I love modular stuff like that.


----------



## Boatboy24

You're going to need to lengthen the chute so those chairs can be spaced safely at least 6 feet apart.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> You're going to need to lengthen the chute so those chairs can be spaced safely at least 6 feet apart.



Really hoping by next harvest we won't have to be worrying about that.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Really hoping by next harvest we won't have to be worrying about that.



I'll drink to that!


----------



## Chris Johnson

I spent some time at a friends winery as they were barreling down at the end of harvest. I was lamenting the fact that I blew through the acid this year. It was spectacular fruit, but the pH was in the 3.7-3.8 range. She showed me their stash and said that folks without optical sorters always need to add acid to account for the potassium released from the stems even if they fully de-stem. Can’t catch all the stems and we should adjust for it. It was one of her tips, she said get more aggressive as I increase the whole cluster.

A few years ago, a different wine maker had told me that his commercial destemmer left 10-15% stems and he adjusted acid by 0.15 pH units in his Pinot to compensate for it. I ended up adjusting Cab and PS to 3.55 this year and after MLF, we are sitting in the high 3.6’s. So far so good.


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## purpletongue

Chris Johnson said:


> I spent some time at a friends winery as they were barreling down at the end of harvest. I was lamenting the fact that I blew through the acid this year. It was spectacular fruit, but the pH was in the 3.7-3.8 range. She showed me their stash and said that folks without optical sorters always need to add acid to account for the potassium released from the stems even if they fully de-stem. Can’t catch all the stems and we should adjust for it. It was one of her tips, she said get more aggressive as I increase the whole cluster.
> 
> A few years ago, a different wine maker had told me that his commercial destemmer left 10-15% stems and he adjusted acid by 0.15 pH units in his Pinot to compensate for it. I ended up adjusting Cab and PS to 3.55 this year and after MLF, we are sitting in the high 3.6’s. So far so good.


Should you not just be testing the juice after de-stemming and then pressing? So you're left with the pure juice to test. At the end of harvest and pressing you're left with a juice you test for acidity and sugar. Then you correct. Am I missing something?


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## VinesnBines

Reds are fermented on the skins and pressed after primary fermentation is complete. Your theory is correct for whites.


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## Chris Johnson

purpletongue said:


> Should you not just be testing the juice after de-stemming and then pressing? So you're left with the pure juice to test. At the end of harvest and pressing you're left with a juice you test for acidity and sugar. Then you correct. Am I missing something?


Applies mainly to reds. Destemmer doesn’t remove 100% of the stems. I usually de-stem, add 25 ppm of SO2 and walk away for 24 hours before I start looking at numbers. Acid additions are better integrated if made before fermentation. During the fermentation, residual stems and fragments will release potassium which will raise the pH of the solution. Many of us co-inoculate, so adjusting acid as part of the press cycle could interrupt MLF. So if you add more acid up front to account for the stems in the process, you’d be more likely to hit whatever pH you are targeting. Post-ferm acid additions should be rather minor.


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## purpletongue

Chris Johnson said:


> Applies mainly to reds. Destemmer doesn’t remove 100% of the stems. I usually de-stem, add 25 ppm of SO2 and walk away for 24 hours before I start looking at numbers. Acid additions are better integrated if made before fermentation. During the fermentation, residual stems and fragments will release potassium which will raise the pH of the solution. Many of us co-inoculate, so adjusting acid as part of the press cycle could interrupt MLF. So if you add more acid up front to account for the stems in the process, you’d be more likely to hit whatever pH you are targeting. Post-ferm acid additions should be rather minor.


Thank you for the explanation. I haven't pressed myself so this is way outside my experience. After making my post I was thinking that it was the must and the cap that changed it for reds. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It seems as much as one may use science to create a consistent product, there is nonetheless a level of intuition and artistry that is intrinsic to this art.


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## NorCal

Chris Johnson said:


> Applies mainly to reds. Destemmer doesn’t remove 100% of the stems. I usually de-stem, add 25 ppm of SO2 and walk away for 24 hours before I start looking at numbers. Acid additions are better integrated if made before fermentation. During the fermentation, residual stems and fragments will release potassium which will raise the pH of the solution. Many of us co-inoculate, so adjusting acid as part of the press cycle could interrupt MLF. So if you add more acid up front to account for the stems in the process, you’d be more likely to hit whatever pH you are targeting. Post-ferm acid additions should be rather minor.


It will be interesting to test the theory(?) that potassium gets released by stems left in the must. I hope it correct, because we battle to retain acidity in the grapes that I get from this region, so every little bit helps.


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## Booty Juice

I thought more stems = less acidity (higher Ph) was established – not theory. I say this not as an enologist but as someone with a bunch of old-ass relatives here and abroad who partial whole-cluster ferment going back generations. In the old country they typically start with low Ph grapes (3.2 ish) and make no adjustments. Up in El Do Co, they usually start with 3.7 ish PN’s or Syrah’s and knock the hell out of them down to 3.3 ish pre ferment, and sometimes lightly pop em again post ferment.


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## jgmillr1

Booty Juice said:


> I thought more stems = less acidity (higher Ph) was established – not theory. I say this not as an enologist but as someone with a bunch of old-ass relatives here and abroad who partial whole-cluster ferment going back generations. In the old country they typically start with low Ph grapes (3.2 ish) and make no adjustments. Up in El Do Co, they usually start with 3.7 ish PN’s or Syrah’s and knock the hell out of them down to 3.3 ish pre ferment, and sometimes lightly pop em again post ferment.


We shouldn't confound potassium, TA, the varietal and growing region with the treatment of the grapes. On the west coast, the grapes are fought to retain acidity (TA) while east of the Rockies the grapes are fought to lower it, for example. Different varietals and growing conditions being the main differences of course.

If the stems contribute potassium then the pH will rise but not drastically resolve an unbalanced TA. The stems also impart an astringency to the wine from their tannins that is not so pleasant. 

The solution is to ripen the right grapes in the right region. Fresno isn't known for its Pinot noir nor the Willamette for its Cab Sauv. Stems or no stems won't make up the difference.


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## purpletongue

Booty Juice said:


> I thought more stems = less acidity (higher Ph) was established – not theory. I say this not as an enologist but as someone with a bunch of old-ass relatives here and abroad who partial whole-cluster ferment going back generations. In the old country they typically start with low Ph grapes (3.2 ish) and make no adjustments. Up in El Do Co, they usually start with 3.7 ish PN’s or Syrah’s and knock the hell out of them down to 3.3 ish pre ferment, and sometimes lightly pop em again post ferment.


Out of curiosity what is the chemical explanation as to why stems decrease acidity?


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## wood1954

purpletongue said:


> Out of curiosity what is the chemical explanation as to why stems decrease acidity?


The plants potassium increases as the grapes ripen, the stems end up with a lot of the potassium which decreases the acid


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## purpletongue

wood1954 said:


> The plants potassium increases as the grapes ripen, the stems end up with a lot of the potassium which decreases the acid


Thank you.


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## Snafflebit

Potassium is in the grapes in combined forms like potassium sulfate and potassium phosphate. The potassium ions K+ become disassociated in the wine and reattach to tartaric acid to form potassium bitartrate, which is a stable salt. The potassium combines preferentially to tartaric acid and not the malic acid, this can also imbalance the acid ratios.


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## purpletongue

Snafflebit said:


> Potassium is in the grapes in combined forms like potassium sulfate and potassium phosphate. The potassium ions K+ become disassociated in the wine and reattach to tartaric acid to form potassium bitartrate, which is a stable salt. The potassium combines preferentially to tartaric acid and not the malic acid, this can also imbalance the acid ratios.


Are you a chemist or just nerdy?


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## Snafflebit

purpletongue said:


> Are you a chemist or just nerdy?



My undergrad electrical engineering classes were beating the snot out of me. Dispirited, I decided to try organic chemistry and life sciences. I thought that these classes would be easier LOLOLOL. I graduated as an MSEE

Snafflebit =


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## cmason1957

Snafflebit said:


> My undergrad electrical engineering classes were beating the snot out of me. Dispirited, I decided to try organic chemistry and life sciences. I thought that these classes would be easier LOLOLOL. I graduated as an MSEE
> 
> Snafflebit =



You are not alone in that career path for certain, but I stayed an EE the whole time, the one chemistry course that was required was enough for me to know not to go that way and since EE is pretty much just 4 years of fancy math, I was set. Of course, then I went down the Computer Sciences path and got my Masters in that and promptly forgot all that math stuff.


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## NorCal

I can see wine making be a draw to people with an analytical bent, as there is a lot of applied science. I was a bio-chem under grad for a while, until I decided not to pursue dentistry, so I got some of the chem basics down. I finished my undergrad in industrial technology, followed by an mba.


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## Booty Juice

Snafflebit said:


> Dispirited, I decided to try organic chemistry....



I hope you have recovered from that trauma and can laugh about it now.


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## The green Dragon

Rice_Guy said:


> I am surprised no one has suggested oxygen exposure yet.
> 
> After racking UC Davis does tricks with their floating cover tanks as covering the tank with a plastic shroud and bleeding nitrogen in. Have also seen setups where they have plastics and keep a slight positive pressure on the system with N2


Ive heard of commercial wineries using dry ice when “pressing off” whatever that is to achieve the same thing.


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## sour_grapes

Snafflebit said:


> My undergrad electrical engineering classes were beating the snot out of me. Dispirited, I decided to try organic chemistry and life sciences. I thought that these classes would be easier LOLOLOL. I graduated as an MSEE
> 
> Snafflebit =





cmason1957 said:


> You are not alone in that career path for certain, but I stayed an EE the whole time, the one chemistry course that was required was enough for me to know not to go that way and since EE is pretty much just 4 years of fancy math, I was set. Of course, then I went down the Computer Sciences path and got my Masters in that and promptly forgot all that math stuff.





NorCal said:


> I can see wine making be a draw to people with an analytical bent, as there is a lot of applied science. I was a bio-chem under grad for a while, until I decided not to pursue dentistry, so I got some of the chem basics down. I finished my undergrad in industrial technology, followed by an mba.



But the guy who knows the MOST about this is busy hand-making _masa_ from blue corn he grew and processed (nixtamalized, stone-ground) himself...


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## franc1969

Mmmm, tamales on order?


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## sour_grapes

franc1969 said:


> Mmmm, tamales on order?



Well, as a matter of fact... What's for Dinner?


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## purpletongue

Snafflebit said:


> Dispirited, I decided to try organic chemistry and life sciences.


I remember hearing organic chemistry was super hard. Congrats on your degree and thx for the explanation.


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## PSlattery

cmason1957 said:


> I would say do be careful with the saignee method, don't remove to much. Before you ask, I don't know how much is to much. I do know I had 300 lbs of St. Vincent, which is a hybrid red grape grown in the midwest, drained off enough juice to make 6 gallons of rose. While the rose was very good, the main wine was horribly over tannic and very recently my wife and I decided it was best fed to the Gods of the drain.


I have also made an over tannic Tempranillo with the similar quantities of grapes but I pulled enough juice off for 5 total gallons of rose. The rose taste great but the rest tast really tannic and will try to blend a little in with some Cabernet. Personally If I add the skins in from the rose I will keep it at the 10% range going forward.


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## MiBor

PSlattery said:


> Personally If I add the skins in from the rose I will keep it at the 10% range going forward.


I processed 360 lbs. of California grapes this year to make a Super Tuscan blend. I pulled a little over 3 gallons for rose in the beginning and ended up with about 26 gallons of wine fermented on skins, so my saignee was in the 10-12% range. I also did complete rack-and-returns every day since I couldn't really punch the cap in my 120L Speidel fermenters with so many skins. The wine is already very good. I can tell that saignee made a significant difference. The color, flavor and tannins are more concentrated in this year's wine than in any other wines I made in the past without pulling any juice in the beginning. I believe that after 7-8 months of barrel aging I'll have a truly awesome wine, definitely the best I've made so far. I credit these forums and this thread for the knowledge to make this happen.


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## NorCal

MiBor said:


> I processed 360 lbs. of California grapes this year to make a Super Tuscan blend. I pulled a little over 3 gallons for rose in the beginning and ended up with about 26 gallons of wine fermented on skins, so my saignee was in the 10-12% range. I also did complete rack-and-returns every day since I couldn't really punch the cap in my 120L Speidel fermenters with so many skins. The wine is already very good. I can tell that saignee made a significant difference. The color, flavor and tannins are more concentrated in this year's wine than in any other wines I made in the past without pulling any juice in the beginning. I believe that after 7-8 months of barrel aging I'll have a truly awesome wine, definitely the best I've made so far. I credit these forums and this thread for the knowledge to make this happen.


That is awesome @MiBor . I have found a lot of little positive actions add up to a significant overall improvement, but saignee is for sure one of the top ones in order to get the extraction and depth of flavor without the benefit of temperature controlled cold soak & fermentation that the good commercial operators have . Congratulations.


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## Gilmango

Stumbled on this great thread by searching 'bulk v bottle aging'. Ironically I don't see that discussed much here but this is exactly the sort of thread I want to follow if I keep making wine, hence my comment. (New winemaker 3 kits in with 2 to go, then probably trying whole grapes this fall since I'm blessed to live in NorCal myself, in SF).


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## NorCal

Gilmango said:


> Stumbled on this great thread by searching 'bulk v bottle aging'. Ironically I don't see that discussed much here but this is exactly the sort of thread I want to follow if I keep making wine, hence my comment. (New winemaker 3 kits in with 2 to go, then probably trying whole grapes this fall since I'm blessed to live in NorCal myself, in SF).


Welcome...if you want commercial quality Cab Franc grapes, destemmed and crushed for you and you are willing to drive a few hours to get it, send me a PM.


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## jsbeckton

Gilmango said:


> Stumbled on this great thread by searching 'bulk v bottle aging'. Ironically I don't see that discussed much here but this is exactly the sort of thread I want to follow if I keep making wine, hence my comment. (New winemaker 3 kits in with 2 to go, then probably trying whole grapes this fall since I'm blessed to live in NorCal myself, in SF).



I made the WE Lodi cab 2 times and bottled per the instructions (1st) and also bottles after one year (2nd). Honestly never could tell any difference. I’d say it’s maybe helpful if you are using an oak adjunct that extracts slower but I would expect the differences to be subtle. If you are looking for a bigger improvement I’d suggest you give all grapes a try before you invest in many more kits. Wish I had made the move sooner myself.


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## MiBor

Gilmango said:


> Stumbled on this great thread by searching 'bulk v bottle aging'. Ironically I don't see that discussed much here but this is exactly the sort of thread I want to follow if I keep making wine


I remember wondering about that myself in the beginning, when I was making wine from juice and kits. After I started using grapes I realized that 8-12 months of bulk aging are necessary for the wine to completely clear, for tannins to convert and oak/acid to be integrated properly. When I started using oak barrels, bulk aging necessity became even more obvious as the MOX process takes a long time. 
There are many other reasons bulk aging for a year is thought of by many as an unquestionable part of wine making. Personally, I want my wine to be as close as possible to a "finished" form before it goes into bottles. When it comes to wine, I don't like surprises.


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## Gilmango

jsbeckton said:


> I made the WE Lodi cab 2 times and bottled per the instructions (1st) and also bottles after one year (2nd). Honestly never could tell any difference. I’d say it’s maybe helpful if you are using an oak adjunct that extracts slower but I would expect the differences to be subtle. If you are looking for a bigger improvement I’d suggest you give all grapes a try before you invest in many more kits. Wish I had made the move sooner myself.


Thanks for the input. I feel like many here preach bulk aging, but many are doing grapes not kits, often using barrels, doing malolactic ferments, etc. where it could easily take 6-12 months. With kit wines it seems like the advantages of bulk aging are a bit less, and that if the wine is clear and free of CO2, it will generally age faster in the bottle. 

But seemingly even kit wines might take advantage of bulk aging as it: 
(1) allows you to skip some of the clearing agents (bentonite, chitosan, kieselsol, etc.) as time and a few rackings might get you clear wine without filtering or fining; 
(2) might allow the wine time to de-gas naturally without risk of over oxidizing if you have to stir or whip it to de-gas (for those of us new to this, like me, who don't have a vacuum pump this is really worrisome - don't want to bottle with CO2 but don't want to oxidize the wine). But without a barrel or a pump and without temperature control maybe there is still some C02 risk even after 6-12 months of bulk aging and a few rackings if I don't stir it while it is young?; 
(3) gives you the opportunity to see what your wine is maturing into so you could, for instance, add tannins or oak or even glycerin, while bulk aging if the wine isn't rounding into what you hoped it would be;
(4) perhaps the most basic, it keeps you from drinking the wine too soon, before it peaks.

I'm sure there are other possible advantages of bulk aging, even for kit wines, and I'd love to hear them. But at the end of the day, if the wine is clear, CO2 free, tastes OK (you feel no need to add things), and you can exercise patience (not tempted to open too many bottles too soon), maybe bottle aging is just as good (or better if it ages faster).

To be clear, I am not in a big race. I've started experimenting with extended macerations which add weeks to my process, and I'm willing to do other things which add time, if they will give me a better end product. Just not sure how much bulk aging will add (vs. bottle aging). And I am eager for the feedback of seeing whether I can make something I would enjoy drinking.


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## cmason1957

I seldom bottle a big red kit wine before a year of bulk aging. That being said, I often add some extra tannin adjuncts, maybe some extra oak, some extra something to make the taste what I want before it goes into the bottle. To me bulk aging is always preferable over bottle aging, no matter what the beginning materials were. I just feel that bulk aging allows everything in the batch to come to some level of equilibrium.

The exceptions I make are for things like skeeter pee and lower alcohol wine cooler kits (of course I always increase the alcohol to at least 10%).


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## NorCal

I was able to have my grapes* cold soaked* for three days at a commercial winery. The jury is out for me if this is a significant contributor to flavor extraction. I think I’ll be able to assess that at the post mlf racking.


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## cenk57

I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?


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## wood1954

I don’t, but sure sounds like a great idea.


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## mainshipfred

cenk57 said:


> I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?



If you have a walk in capable of 32F not being used I'd say you have the perfect solution. If you get it down to temp I don't see any reason to use the frozen jugs.


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## franc1969

cenk57 said:


> I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?


I would be jumping for joy! I have someone I know with a walkin in his barn, thought of asking to use it for fermentation, but for the half hour to get there.
For anyone else space challenged, I saw a flexible chest freezer/refrigerator at Costco, for something like $200? Very cheap, was looking at an upright to replace my freezer but I several of these are better. I think it was 7 cubic foot, looks like it would take two buckets or carboys. I hope they still have it when I go back in a week, I couldn't take it then.


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## cenk57

franc1969 said:


> I would be jumping for joy! I have someone I know with a walkin in his barn, thought of asking to use it for fermentation, but for the half hour to get there.
> For anyone else space challenged, I saw a flexible chest freezer/refrigerator at Costco, for something like $200? Very cheap, was looking at an upright to replace my freezer but I several of these are better. I think it was 7 cubic foot, looks like it would take two buckets or carboys. I hope they still have it when I go back in a week, I couldn't take it then.



I am not sure why I haven't done this yet. I just make wine in my basement, which is 66 degrees year round - not bad. But I will be moving to the walk in from now on. I make a lot of white and fruit (I grow on our farm) wines as well. I think the cooler ferment temps would be very, very helpful to those delicate wines with a low temp tolerance yeast. And I already have an amazing tool in my barn. I just can't believe I haven't used it for winemaking. Thank you all for the inspiration!

You could also build an insulated space in the corner of a garage or somewhere and use a CoolBot controler and a small window A/C unit to cool it down. Just need some lumber and a couple sheets of foam board insulation.


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## NorCal

We are closing on two years since the original post. With 325 replies and over 34,000 views, it is clear that a lot of people come to the site to learn ways they can improve their wine. This is not an exhaustive wine making list, rather a list of items I think separates a good homemade wine from a 90+ point commercail wine. 

I've changed the original order, and added items that I feel were good additions to the list. Like poker, most all wine making questions could be answered with "it depends". Whether these items are relevent to a given wine really depends on the situation. 

*Fruit quality* – you can make bad wine with great grapes, but you cannot make great wine from bad grapes

*Post crush berry sorting* – removing MOG

*Saignee* - Pulling 15%-30% of the juice out of a red ferment

*Cold soak* – getting flavor and color out without the tannin

*Yeast choice* – multiple yeasts, non-sac yeast as options

*Controlling fermentation temps* - controlling the ferm temps to achieve objectives

*Delestage* – removing seeds from ferment

*Time to press *- Pressing pre AF completion on tannic wines, pressing post AF on wines that would benefit from extended maceration.

*Free Run *– Softer wine, with a higher level of fruitiness and less astringency
*
Barrel aging *– micro ox

*Blending* - making additions that complement the wine

*Bottle aging* - give it a few years before releasing


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## Tberns

cenk57 said:


> I just read the majority of this great thread! Very good information indeed. There were many mentions of "chillers" and diy cool boxes made from chest freezers. But I was wondering, would a walk in type cooler work for cold soaking and cooler ferments? If there was a mention of that here, I missed it so I would apologize. Reason being, we have a 14x14 walk in cooler in our barn that is used for storing produce in the warmer months. It can easily cool down to 32F. I ferment mostly in 20 gallon brut containers. I have never used the cooler in winemaking (don't know why). It seems like it would be a perfect answer to this. Cold soak for 2-3 days, then increase the ambient temp in the cooler to the ideal fermenting temp (or a few degrees lower). To drop the temps fast, I was thinking of tossing in a couple of frozen jugs when I place the containers in the cooler. Does anyone use a walk in cooler for this sort of thing?


I have an 8x8 walk in cooler as part of my home winery/vineyard setup and I love it. It is great to be able to adjust temps for different stages of the winemaking process. I just completed malolactic fermentation and will be racking into stainless tanks for bulk aging at 55 degrees. Not the least expensive option but a great long term investment.


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## Gilmango

Great to re-read this whole thread after starting to bottle my first 2021 wine from grapes (not the best grapes but I learned alot including the importance of blending), and being in the midst of fermenting my second 2022 wine from grapes which I have higher hopes for.


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## meridaen

Fantastic read. I'm 4 years in and absolutely looking to close the gap a bit. Have started giving a local wonery some free labour in exchange for some of his premium fruit come March (in Aus). I haven't tried saignee yet so I'm definitely going to give that a go.

Not so sold on the cold soak yet, but my thoughts on yeast are changing the longer I read the posts on here.

So glad to have found this place, even if I'm not a big poster just yet.


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## MiBor

NorCal said:


> I've changed the original order, and added items that I feel were good additions to the list. Like poker, most all wine making questions could be answered with "it depends". Whether these items are relevant to a given wine really depends on the situation.


I totally agree with the above @NorCal statement. I also feel that another line item should be added to the list, specifically co-inoculation of MLF bacteria for big reds. I tried it for the first time this year on some Lodi CS grapes and found that, along with controlling the fermenters' temperature to 18C, it allowed me to have a 25 day ferment on skins before the cap stopped forming. I have never experienced that before without the added CO2 produced by the malolactic conversion. 10 days was the longest I was able to keep the wine on the skins. @crushday hinted to the same thing in his most recent thread and maybe he could elaborate on the subject, having more experience with co-inoculation. I used VP-41 MLF bacteria for my wine this year (ICV D254 and D80 in separate fermenters) which extended the fermentation time on skins to 25 days. I checked the malic acid conversion with chromatography after pressing and found that the MLF was done, so I could add SO2 to protect the wine sooner and not have to wait another 4-6 weeks for a post AF MLF. The extended skin contact with the wine added a lot of extra flavor and not that much tannin as I was afraid it would do. I'm ready to barrel the wine and I'm curious how it will evolve in the coming months, but as it stand now it is really much better than any other wine I made at this early stage in its life.


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## crushday

MiBor said:


> @crushday hinted to the same thing in his most recent thread and maybe he could elaborate on the subject, having more experience with co-inoculation.


I'm a huge fan of co-inoculation. Like you, my ferments done in this style have an average duration of 21+ days. This provides a safe*** extended maceration due to the blanket of CO2, which is heavier than O2, over the must. ***As you know, decay needs oxygen as a catalyst to rot. I stop punching after 10 days, cover with a lid and gasket and let the must be. Once the skins have sunk enough to present wine, I press. After I settle for a couple of days, I rack off the gross lees to storage under airlock and topped up. Although I'm certain MLF has completed, I don't typically test for lactic until the next rack - about 2 months.

I recently experimented with adding the MLB after racking off the gross lees. I was motivated by an anomaly in my schedule and wasn't sure what life would look like 20-25 days after pitching yeast and if I'd be able to press at that time. I was trying to ferment for 10 days, settle and then go on a trip. Although I've yet to finish MLF on those batches of wine, perhaps they'll finish.

My conclusions are these: 1) Co-inoculation allows the yeast colony and the bacteria colony to grow and thrive at the same time - experience tells me they play well together and are not fighting for resources. 2) Since my approach to winemaking is using the minimum possible additives and adjuncts, co-inoculation doesn't require bacteria nutrients in my experience. I say this because I've never added MLB nutrients to the wine and until this last go around have quickly finished MLF consistently. 3) I will always co-inoculate moving forward since I've had great success doing so.

You've likely seen this from Lallemand Wine: https://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Let me know what other questions you have and I'm always open to a phone call or zoom session. Just ask.


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## jsbeckton

Glad this is working for you. Just wanted to point out that you may be giving too much credit to the CO2 “blanket” idea. This is not really true that a steady blanket forms. For example, if you think about air, it’s a mix of gasses and not a series of layers, due to the ideal gas law properties.

What happens is that during active fermentation the high rate of CO2 being relaeased is providing protection but once that slows air (and O2) are indeed in contact with the wine which is why a lot of people press once fermentation slows.






Can CO2 Form a “Blanket?”







beerandgardeningjournal.com


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## crushday

jsbeckton said:


> Glad this is working for you. Just wanted to point out that you may be giving too much credit to the CO2 “blanket” idea. This is not really true that a steady blanket forms. For example, if you think about air, it’s a mix of gasses and not a series of layers, due to the ideal gas law properties.
> 
> What happens is that during active fermentation the high rate of CO2 being relaeased is providing protection but once that slows air (and O2) are indeed in contact with the wine which is why a lot of people press once fermentation slows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can CO2 Form a “Blanket?”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beerandgardeningjournal.com


Thanks for the explanation and the attached link providing the article. I read it. Not to belabor this idea, I'd like to point out that my fermentors get sealed, not air tight mind you, but enough to provide force exerted by the expressed CO2 gas particles colliding with the wall and lid of the fermentor. The only way O2 could enter the vessel is if a vacuum formed, which is unlikely due to the resident temperature of the must being higher than the ambient air. This is especially true when time is considered a factor in the process against the vigorous chemical process.


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## jsbeckton

Ahh, didn’t catch that your fermenter was sealed so you are sort of talking more of a “purged headspace” than “blanket of CO2”. The only time I tired this was with a wide mouth fermentor (fermonstor) I used to use for beer. It had an airlock but big enough opening to get the must in. Towards the end of fermentation, instead of opening to punch down the cap, I left it sealed and kinda sloshed it back and forth a bit.

My batches are too big for this now so I use the food grade Rubbermaid cans. This has a lid but nothing I’d trust with keeping enough air out for several weeks so I moved more to the cold soak side to increase contact time.


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## TurkeyHollow

Has anybody ever done side-by-side tests with a split batch and checked dissolved O2? I would love to see if the flood of Ar I've been evacuating O2 with actually has any efficacy. I've had good results so far (hope I didn't just jinx myself) so I'll continue to do so but I've read so many articles, it just would be nice to see something with real numbers other than the theories of fluid motion. I'm open minded about it - in my recent readings I've seen actual dissolved O2 studies comparing splash racking vs auto-siphon vs mechanical pump. To my surprise the pump won out over the auto-siphon. I can be convinced, I just need to see the data.


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## meridaen

Apart from the fact that article is pretty much an opinion piece, isn't the amount of CO2 coming from the wine still relatively high well after fermentation has slowed down?


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## BarrelMonkey

It might not be a bad idea to hang a little bag of dry ice in the (semi-sealed) fermenter, just to help augment any Co2 that's still off-gassing from the wine. Like this:


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## TurkeyHollow

BarrelMonkey said:


> It might not be a bad idea to hang a little bag of dry ice in the (semi-sealed) fermenter, just to help augment any Co2 that's still off-gassing from the wine. Like this:
> 
> View attachment 94083


That makes sense since the temperature will help the (cooler) CO2 sit right on the must. Again, it's all theory... I just like to see numbers to back up what I think makes sense. I like the thought, though.


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## Rotundifolia

One of the commercial wine makers in my making club told me to wait till the cap fell. If I did not have time to press that day, then add frozen water bottles, cover my brute with saran wrap and put outside at night (we live near Seattle area).


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