# Degas Prior to Racking



## RickD (Jan 26, 2021)

I'm planning my first batch. Blackberry (1 gal), from frozen berries. The idea of trying to efficiently degas in a one gallon jug does not appeal to me. However, I've seen one process that I like:

1. Transfer the finished must to a bucket lined with a mesh bag;
2. Strain using the mesh bag (I only have "250 micron");
3. To the filtered must, add K-meta, K-sorbate, and Bentonite;
4. Degas with wine whip (it's what I have);
5. Rack.

Will this process yield good results?


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## Rembee (Jan 26, 2021)

If you are planning to ferment on the berries then you would do better fermenting in a 2 gallon bucket for your primary fermentation with the mesh bag and a lid with air lock or a damp towel to cover with. In the beginning stages of fermentation the yeast need some O2 in order to increase the population of the colony. Once the SG reaches 1.040 or less you can then squeeze the juice from the straining bag, discard the berries and rack over to a 1 gallon glass carboy and place it under an airlock. The CO2 gasses in the wine will displace any O2 and create a seal until further racking/aging is down.


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## Rembee (Jan 26, 2021)

This 2nd stage of fermentation I consider it to be the clarification stage where the wine is allowed to clear, drop out lees and age. I usually let it sit in the clarification stage for at least a month before I preform the 2nd rack into a 1 gallon pitcher or the 2 gallon bucket where I then degas. Then I rack back into a clean 1 gallon carboy and place it back under an airlock.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 26, 2021)

RickD said:


> I'm planning my first batch. Blackberry (1 gal), from frozen berries. The idea of trying to efficiently degas in a one gallon jug does not appeal to me. However, I've seen one process that I like:
> 
> 1. Transfer the finished must to a bucket lined with a mesh bag;
> 2. Strain using the mesh bag (I only have "250 micron");
> ...


to separate the solids the mesh bag method works well for small batches. i’ve done it where i did the whole ferment with a mesh lined bucket. Then just simply removed the bag afterwards and squeezed the fruit before transferring to glass. 
I don’t see any red flags in the process described. But the degassing seems unnecessary. Unless you plan on bottling super early i don’t believe there’s any need for it. Before it dissipates naturally the Co2 helps protect the wine.


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## RickD (Jan 27, 2021)

My primary is a 2 gal bucket.



Ajmassa said:


> to separate the solids the mesh bag method works well for small batches. i’ve done it where i did the whole ferment with a mesh lined bucket. Then just simply removed the bag afterwards and squeezed the fruit before transferring to glass.
> I don’t see any red flags in the process described. But the degassing seems unnecessary. Unless you plan on bottling super early i don’t believe there’s any need for it. Before it dissipates naturally the Co2 helps protect the wine.



Thanks, Ajmassa! Bottling "super early" is precisely my goal!


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## winemaker81 (Jan 27, 2021)

I see a few issues with the process. Here's food for thought:

1. Ferment to whatever point you desire, e.g., I press between 1.020 and 1.000
2. Transfer the finished must to a bucket lined with a mesh bag
3. Strain using the mesh bag (I only have "250 micron")
4. Put in gallon jug with airlock and let fermentation complete
5. Add Bentonite;
6. Degas with wine whip (it's what I have)
7. Allow wine to settle, 7 to 14 days; rack carefully.
8. Let wine age as long as you intend.
9. Add K-meta and K-sorbate, backsweeten (fruits usually need this)
10. Bottle 

As @Ajmassa said, for longer aging degassing is not necessary. However, I find the wine clears faster so there is a benefit.


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## Johnd (Jan 27, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I see a few issues with the process. Here's food for thought:
> 
> 1. Ferment to whatever point you desire, e.g., I press between 1.020 and 1.000
> 2. Transfer the finished must to a bucket lined with a mesh bag
> ...


I like your suggested process, only change I'd make personally would be to introduce the bentonite in the must prior to pitching yeast. Bentonite seems more effective when it is circulated through the fermenting must, though the dosage needed is higher pre fermentation than post.............FWIW Edited: had the dosage thing typed in backwards.


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## RickD (Jan 27, 2021)

I truly appreciate all the suggestions! But, to be clear and as I originally stated, the idea of trying to efficiently degas in a one gallon jug simply does not appeal to me. Admittedly, I may soon learn otherwise.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 27, 2021)

A caution about your planned bottling early. You are going to be bottling a wine that changes dramatically between 3-4 months time and 9 months time. Unless you plan to just take a whack at how much to back-sweeten or not to back-sweeten at all,. _(If you are NOT going to back-sweeten then don't add sorbate at all.)_ Bottling a blackberry wine early can lead to a wine that is too dry, lacks flavor or is too sweet. Just my personal experience from doing fruit wines only, early bottling leads to regrets later on. A wine aged in bulk can be adjusted for sweetness just before bottling after the sharp edges of a new wine are gone. BUT once bottled you have to accept that the wine "Is what it is" from then on.
I started wine batch 49 last week and with 2 exceptions everyone has been a fruit wine (non-Grape) ALL of them changed dramatically as they aged. I have never regretted waiting longer to bottle but I have regretted those that I bottled too early as I couldn't adjust them after that. (Re-bottling is NOT a reasonable option in my book.)


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## Johnd (Jan 27, 2021)

RickD said:


> I truly appreciate all the suggestions! But, to be clear and as I originally stated, the idea of trying to efficiently degas in a one gallon jug simply does not appeal to me. Admittedly, I may soon learn otherwise.


I lost sight of that in the reading of the post. An easy way to degas a gallons glass jug without beating the hell out of it with a whip and drill:

Buy a Vacuvin Wine Saver (https://www.amazon.com/Original-Vacu-Vin-Vacuum-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE ) if you don't already own one, they're great for preserving open wines for a few days. The Vacuvin stopper will fit over the cylindrical tube opening inside of a universal carboy bung, with a little effort, slide it down on there tight. Put the bung into the opening of the gallon glass jug of wine and pump it. The vacuum inside the jug will cause CO2 to be released from the wine. You can do a lot of pumping at one time, or just leave it under vacuum and pump a few times a day, or a combination of both, it will degas the wine.


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## RickD (Jan 27, 2021)

Excellent! Thanks! I wonder if a #6.5 stopper could be drilled to accept one of these: Amazon.com: Vacu Vin Wine Saver Vacuum Stoppers Set of 4 – Grey: Wine Bottle Stoppers: Kitchen & Dining ?


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## RickD (Jan 27, 2021)

RickD said:


> Excellent! Thanks! I wonder if a #6.5 stopper could be drilled to accept one of these: Amazon.com: Vacu Vin Wine Saver Vacuum Stoppers Set of 4 – Grey: Wine Bottle Stoppers: Kitchen & Dining ?


For 12 bucks you can try it. Duh.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 27, 2021)

RickD said:


> Excellent! Thanks! I wonder if a #6.5 stopper could be drilled to accept one of these: Amazon.com: Vacu Vin Wine Saver Vacuum Stoppers Set of 4 – Grey: Wine Bottle Stoppers: Kitchen & Dining ?



sure can. and depending on the stoppers (they vary slightly from different manufacturers) you can get them to fit around the nipple inside the universal style bungs too. (or just use different hose pieces to make it work like the one on the far right)
I use these sometimes as a temporary way to remove the o2 from the headspace until i find time to rack to proper sized vessel. But works just as well to degas too. 

**pro tip courtesy of @Johnd - before drilling out a rubber bung stick it in the freezer for a while. The soft rubber can be a pain to drill


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 27, 2021)

RickD said:


> Excellent! Thanks! I wonder if a #6.5 stopper could be drilled to accept one of these: Amazon.com: Vacu Vin Wine Saver Vacuum Stoppers Set of 4 – Grey: Wine Bottle Stoppers: Kitchen & Dining ?


Rubber stoppers are hard to drill, the college lab method was a cork borer which is in essence a brass tube that is sharpened. Might be easier looking for a large rubber grommet at the hardware store.


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## 1d10t (Jan 27, 2021)

For some reason when I looked at the title and saw "degas" I wondered what Edgar Degas had to do with wine making. Now that I'm always going to make that connection I thought I'd inflict it on others. Feel free to add me to you ignore list.


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## Johnd (Jan 28, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> Rubber stoppers are hard to drill, the college lab method was a cork borer which is in essence a brass tube that is sharpened. Might be easier looking for a large rubber grommet at the hardware store.


Freeze them first, then drill.


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## RickD (Jan 28, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> (or just use different hose pieces to make it work like the one on the far right)



Ingenious. I am so gonna try this! This way I don't have to dedicate a stopper. I have a spare airlock that I can cut a nipple from. I "know a guy" that has no problem giving away 1-2" samples of by-the-foot tubing.

Does the Vacu-stopper give a visual clue that it has lost vacuum?


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## Johnd (Jan 28, 2021)

RickD said:


> Ingenious.  I am so gonna try this! This way I don't have to dedicate a stopper. I have a spare airlock that I can cut a nipple from. I "know a guy" that has no problem giving away 1-2" samples of by-the-foot tubing.
> 
> Does the Vacu-stopper give a visual clue that it has lost vacuum?


No visual clue, but when you push the nipple in the middle to the side, you can clearly hear a hiss as the vacuum is broken. If you don't hear the hiss, enough CO2 has come out of solution since the last pumping to equalize the pressure. Simply pump up another vacuum. Once wine is degassed, I've had this Vacuvin stopper / universal bung arrangement hold vacuums for months.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 28, 2021)

Johnd said:


> Once wine is degassed, I've had this Vacuvin stopper / universal bung arrangement hold vacuums for months.


Interesting -- I find that my Vacu-Vin keeps a vacuum in a bottle for only about a week.

However, my stoppers are _very_ old, so I'm going to purchase new ones as it's likely the material has degraded with time. Looking at Amazon, it appears the design of the stopper has changed a bit, but the pump itself looks the same. Which is cool, as mine still works.


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## RickD (Jan 28, 2021)

I can't believe that someone has not come up with a wifi Vacu-stopper! Or for that matter a wifi airlock that notifies you when bubbling drops below your setting. How about a Bluetooth hydrometer?

Oh my...Tilt™ - Blue Digital Hydrometer and Thermometer (northernbrewer.com)

PLAATO Airlock V3 - Wireless Hydrometer and Airlock – Midwest Supplies 

This is the story of my life.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 28, 2021)

I have 8 carboys in motion ... at $129 a pop, I'm ok with checking my airlocks on a regular basis ... although post-fermentation I'm using vented bungs. In this regard I'm going to remain a Neanderthal!!!


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 28, 2021)

RickD said:


> Ingenious. I am so gonna try this! This way I don't have to dedicate a stopper. I have a spare airlock that I can cut a nipple from. I "know a guy" that has no problem giving away 1-2" samples of by-the-foot tubing.
> 
> Does the Vacu-stopper give a visual clue that it has lost vacuum?


no vacuum indicator, , , when tested I could do 15 inches Hg with it.

my VacuVin mostly sits since the 12 volt vacuum pump/ cork/ tubing setup can pull 22” Hg.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 28, 2021)

When folks talk about using *"Rubber"* bungs, stoppers etc - I hope those folk are making sure that those stoppers are food safe and aren't going to taint you wine with the smell of rubber. If and once that happens, it's there forever, wine ruined. I would never look at a typical hardware store for such things. I value my wine and my time too much for that.


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## Johnd (Jan 28, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Interesting -- I find that my Vacu-Vin keeps a vacuum in a bottle for only about a week.
> 
> However, my stoppers are _very_ old, so I'm going to purchase new ones as it's likely the material has degraded with time. Looking at Amazon, it appears the design of the stopper has changed a bit, but the pump itself looks the same. Which is cool, as mine still works.


I find the same thing with wine bottles, but it is applied differently to a carboy. The stopper fits over the nipple inside the universal bung, and it's a super tight fit, pretty hard to get on the first time you try. The bung is subsequently in contact with the glass, as opposed to the stopper being in contact with the glass in a wine bottle. I don't think the little fins on the stopper are as efficient as the full surface contact of the universal bung.


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## SLM (Jan 31, 2021)

I have read here many times that wine will naturally degas with time. I'm still trying to figure out how that works. I rack to a carboy, minimal headspace, airlock. If the water in the airlock doesn't move, where is the CO2 going?


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## winemaker81 (Jan 31, 2021)

SLM said:


> I have read here many times that wine will naturally degas with time. I'm still trying to figure out how that works. I rack to a carboy, minimal headspace, airlock. If the water in the airlock doesn't move, where is the CO2 going?


The gradual degassing is slow enough you'll not notice it. Looking at the airlock during late fermentation you see a lot of activity because the yeast is actively producing alcohol and CO2. In the degassing process there is no replenishment of CO2 so the activity level is much lower.

Fill a carboy to 80%, place the drilled stopper and airlock. Now tilt the carboy and vigorously move it back-n-forth. Look at the airlock, if the wine is degassing, you'll see LOTS of activity for a short while.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 31, 2021)

What @winemaker81 said is correct. To be more specific, the CO2 diffuses through the water in your airlock, and is released to the atmosphere. This is because the fraction (i.e., partial pressure) of CO2 in the atmosphere is fairly low (~0.5%).


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## SLM (Jan 31, 2021)

Nice explanations. Any guidelines on time to degas?


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## Scooter68 (Feb 1, 2021)

Also, with very small levels of CO2 release you could have a small air leak in your bung/stopper or where the airlock passes through that allows CO2 to escape without going through the airlock. YOu can try a trick similar to that used to detect natural gas leaks (Without the soap of course) - Put a little water on your stopper and around where your airlock passes through. If you are early on in the degassing you may see some fine bubbling or water movement where there's a leak. As long as you have a positive pressure situation that leak is harmless.
Time to degas is as long as it takes. If you plan on aging your wine at least 6 months you probably won't have to worry about degassing manually.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 1, 2021)

Degassing can occur any time after fermentation completes. After the first racking, I wait until the sediment drops heavily and then compacts a bit before racking again. The more lees compact, the less wine you lose, but leaving the wine on the gross lees will eventually impart off smells and flavors as the grape solids start to decompose. Timing is a trade-off.

I degas as a final step in the second racking, and as I mentioned in a previous post, the faster the CO2 is out of the wine, the faster it will clear. Kits say to degas before fining as the fining agent (typically kieselsol/chitosan) won't work correctly if CO2 is holding sediment in suspension.


EDIT: Fixed numerous typos. Note to self -- proof read better before posting...


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2021)

@SLM, I think I misunderstood your question, which I believe is "how long does degassing take?"

@Scooter68's answer is good advice. He's telling you want you _should_ do. I'll expand that by saying what you _can_ do.

The rule of thumb I was taught is 1 week, 3 weeks, 3 months. [I no longer follow this, but it's good general advice.]

Fermentation takes a week, then press. Let the wine clear 3 weeks then rack. Rack again after 3 months and bottle. The total duration is 4 months, and the guys that did this _mostly_ had clear wine. Some stirred well (not at the level the kit instructions say) at the second racking to ensure the K-meta was well mixed, and some splash racked, both of which help with degassing. None did any exceptional degassing and few used fining agents.

As a general guideline this timing worked fairly well, in my recollection ~95% of the time. Only a few wines were not ready to bottle at the 4 month mark. [this doesn't include barrels, as they bottled just before the following year's wine was ready to go into the barrel.]

In fact, it's often possible to bottle at the 3 month mark -- but the earlier the bottling, the greater the risk of dissolved CO2 and/or suspended sediment in the bottle. I've had corks pushed out (no explosions!) and heavier-than-I-like sediment in the bottle. 

If _you_ have a need to bottle early? Do it -- it's your wine and your schedule. A lot of us must work our wine making schedule around family and work commitments, e.g., gotta have free time to do pressings & rackings.

But unless you have that pressing need (pun intended), let the wine set another few months. 6 months is a good round number for a new rule-of-thumb.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 2, 2021)

For me it's 9-12 months aging always and no bottling until the wine is clear. Peach bottled 10 days ago was almost 18 months aging/clearing. Apple Cider was bottled this past week was from August/September not perfectly clear but... It's cider and If folks want a crystal clear hard cider there is plenty of that out there on store shelves in beer bottles. I wanted to get my aging area cleared off a little before spring. I've never had a degassing issue yet. 

I've only had 3 disasters/close calls in 5 1/2 years. 
1) Lost a batch of strawberry that got the sulfurous smell and would not go away with splash racking, copper wire whipping or reduless - tossed it eventually only 1 gallon thankfully
2) Lost a batch of Pineapple/Mango before it got started - Let it set too long obviously without, enough, K-meta and it spoiled by day 3. Probably should have kept it cooler too.
3) One of my last two batches of Apple cider was tasting blaaah flat - until my clue light went on - checked the pH 3.83. With low ABV and not enough acid until I corrected it, that batch would have probably not lasted much longer. THAT was a save but too close for comfort.

I do not want to be like that US Calvary lieutenant. His commander wrote the following in his fitness report on the young officer: "To his credit he never makes the same mistake twice, but; seems intent on making every mistake once."


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## SLM (Feb 2, 2021)

Thanks for the info, which brings up more questions. What are the adverse effects of CO2 besides pushing corks? I would think a little bit of CO2 would help prevent oxidation in the bottle. Does it affect taste? Is there a way to know when it's gone?


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2021)

SLM said:


> Thanks for the info, which brings up more questions. What are the adverse effects of CO2 besides pushing corks? I would think a little bit of CO2 would help prevent oxidation in the bottle. Does it affect taste? Is there a way to know when it's gone?


My understanding is that there's always a bit of CO2 in the wine, but (hopefully) not enough to produce ill effects.

In addition to producing your very own volcano, the one adverse effect that comes to mind is the wine will not clear as the CO2 holds particles in suspension.

Enough CO2 will affect taste, like any carbonated beverage. BTW -- if you have CO2, do not bottle in regular screwcaps. They are not designed for pressure and if the pressure exceeds the glass's strength, the bottle can explode. Corked bottles do not present the same problem, as the cork will blow -- unless you use a cork cage to hold it on. Any time a wine is sparkling, use a beer or champagne bottle as they are designed for the pressure.

The easiest ways I know to detect excess CO2 is to stir the wine vigorously for 10 seconds -- it will foam a lot if there is excess CO2. Or in a jug/carboy 90% full with an airlock on top, give it a hard shake or 3 -- this will produce a lot of activity in the airlock.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 3, 2021)

* I would not worry about pushing a cork on a wine which was finished fermenting. The gas will be in equilibrium with the winery conditions (room temperature?) so a majority of the CO2 will have escaped.
* Having CO2 and O2 in a corked bottle will still allow the oxygen to do its damage, ,, these gases are not exclusive of each other. ,,, However if you have active gas release as through an air lock it will tend to flush the head space which will reduce the potential for oxidation in the carboy.
* CO2 will make a wine taste more acidic and if you ran numbers as is/ after you can measure the shift. CO2 also contributes bitter notes which help balance sweet.
* I have a small vacuum on the bench, my read is that when it isn’t obvious I can usually pull more out with 15 inches Hg or more. I see light bubble formation in many commercial/ smaller wineries.
.

if it takes more than 5 inches Hg (equal to a home vacuum cleaner) to get active bubbles I would ignore it.
* heat also will pull CO2 out




SLM said:


> Thanks for the info, which brings up more questions. What are the adverse effects of CO2 besides pushing corks? I would think a little bit of CO2 would help prevent oxidation in the bottle. Does it affect taste? Is there a way to know when it's gone?


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 9, 2021)

*First of all, thank you for posting photos of how to put things together, , this has gotten me looking through parts on how I could use the VacuVin check valve to degas.*


Ajmassa said:


> sure can. and depending on the stoppers (they vary slightly from different manufacturers) you can get them to fit around the nipple inside the universal style bungs too. (or just use different hose pieces to make it work like the one on the far right)
> I use these sometimes as a temporary way to remove the o2 from the headspace until i find time to rack to proper sized vessel. But works just as well to degas too.
> 
> **pro tip courtesy of @Johnd - before drilling out a rubber bung stick it in the freezer for a while. The soft rubber can be a pain to drillView attachment 70893





RickD said:


> This picture was taken well towards the end of degassing 750 ml of blackberry wine. I started out using the VacuVin, and it worked amazingly well. There was a very sudden and significant drop in volume of wine...the level started out at the TOP of the piece of blue tape. Will consign my whips to stirring.View attachment 71426


This is what I came up with. I can pull a vacuum with my cheap 12 volt pump from Amazon,, use a bung to funnel onto the top of a VacuVin and connect the inside diameter with a hardware store nylon union to a standard single hole bung. . . . I would still like to put a vacuum switch in the system to turn the pump on and off
? ? I am guessing the 1960 cars had that part , , , , any ideas about a vacuum switch ? .


I should let this sit for a week to see how tight the VacuVincheck valve is. One last note, the check valve in Steve’s head space eliminator will hold a higher vacuum, so far the best VacuVin has pulled is 17 inches Hg.


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## RickD (Feb 9, 2021)

Johnd said:


> I lost sight of that in the reading of the post. An easy way to degas a gallons glass jug without beating the hell out of it with a whip and drill:
> 
> Buy a Vacuvin Wine Saver (https://www.amazon.com/Original-Vacu-Vin-Vacuum-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE ) if you don't already own one, they're great for preserving open wines for a few days. The Vacuvin stopper will fit over the cylindrical tube opening inside of a universal carboy bung, with a little effort, slide it down on there tight. Put the bung into the opening of the gallon glass jug of wine and pump it. The vacuum inside the jug will cause CO2 to be released from the wine. You can do a lot of pumping at one time, or just leave it under vacuum and pump a few times a day, or a combination of both, it will degas the wine.



I have two different manufacturer's versions of the S-shaped airlocks. FWIW, I can confirm that the VacuVin stoppers fit the top ends of both airlocks nicely, and will pull a heckuva vacuum (around 17" ?) on a 1 gallon jug. I am so gonna try this. Will try my home made whip on the 1 gallon carboy prior to vacuum.




I do app. 1.2 gallon batches. This is 750ml of blackberry wine I've been experimenting with. I started out degassing with the Vacuvin. It worked very well, especially in the beginning of the process. I couldn't help but think that if I could just pull a little more vacuum, I could make quick work of this. Pulled out the Mityvac. When it hit just under 20" it appeared to pick up where the Vacuvin had left off in terms of bubbling (I have no way of directly measuring the vacuum on the Vacuvin). A couple more minutes at about 25" and they were almost- but not quite, gone. I could never get them to disappear completely, but Im going to try again later today.

What is most interesting to me is that when I started degassing, the level of the wine was slightly above the TOP of the blue tape. I may have lost a teaspoon getting a hydrometer sample. No clue where the rest went. If this wine was a metallic material I would say that the decrease in volume could be due to a change in crystal lattice structure.


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## stickman (Feb 9, 2021)

@Rice_Guy you're probably thinking of a vacuum advance diaphragm like the one below; you would have to rig up your own micro switch.



Advance Auto Parts - Down for Maintenance


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