# Kits vs Grapes - Your Thoughts?



## WineQuest

I am wondering your opinions on competitions that judge kit wines and wines made from grapes side by side. I have an opinion but I'll wait for a few responses before sharing....


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## joeswine

*Time and theory*

IN MY OPPION,IF YOU ARE A DECENT WINE MAKER AND HAVE GOOD CONTROL OF YOUR PROCESS IT DOESN'T MATTER,WHAT DOES MATTER WITH GRAPES IS THE QUANTITY AND THE TIMING THIS YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER AS A HOMEWINE MAKER AND NO VINEYARD OF YOUR OWN AND EVEN THEN THE TYPE OF GRAPE AND ALL THE OTHER FACTORS YOU HAVE A MARGINAL AMOUNT OF CONTROL OVER,THAT BEING SAID IF YOU UNDERSTAND WINE MAKING PRINCIPALS,THEN IT'S A CHALLENGE ALL THE WAY AND IT CAN BE REWARDING.
IF YOUR A KIT MAKER AND TIME IS ESSENTIAL AS WELL AS SPACE THEN THIS IS THE WAY TO GO, FOLLOW THE PROCESS WITH MOST KITS AND A DESCENT BOTTLE WILL FOLLOW BUT EVEN HERE IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BASICS YOU CAN RUN AGROUND.
BOTH HAVE THERE PRO'S AND CON'S WHAT YOU CHOSE IS AND SHOULD BE BASED ON THE ABOVE FRACTURES TO START. IF YOUR A BEGGINNER THEN KITS ARE WHERE YOU SHOULD START IF YOUR ON YOUR OWN. THERE THE PROCESS IS EXPLAINED OUT AND CONNECTING THE DOTS IS A GOOD LEARNING PROCESS...THE REST WILL COME LATER.


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## JohnT

Kits and kit technique have evolved to the point where they should be judged side by side. 

I am not a "Kit Guy" and I always make from fresh grapes. I have been very impressed by the level of quality in the kit wines I have tasted.


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## seth8530

I do not think kits and and wine from grapes/juice/frozen must should be judged together. It is basically saying that one should be allowed to enter Betty crocker cake side by side with someones made from scratch cake.

I understand that kit wines require skill to make well and I also realize that kit wines can make perfectly great wines. However, from an art of winemaking perspective I do not think it is fair to grape winemkakers to compete side by side with kit wines since pretty much 75% of the hard parts and techniques involved with making wine get removed when you make a kit. 

Ie, no grape choice, no cold soak vs no cold soak, no mlf, no choosing when to press, no going out to vinyards and negotiating for and choosing your fruit.

In eccesne, I think most of the hard choices and technique based challenges get removed when you make a kit wine. And thus, I do not think it is fair for kits and grape wines to compete against each other.

That being said, I don't have issue with kit wine or kit winemakers. But I don't think they should compete together.


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## bkisel

Great question. I hope a lot of folks contribute to this thread by posting their opinion(s).

My feeling is that if it is a wine "tasting" competition it is about judging end result (i.e. the taste) and not the processes to get to the taste. Also, it would seem to me that the wine maker starting from grapes would have a huge advantage over the kit maker in that he/she has control and creativity over more of the process. No?


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## GaDawg

bkisel said:


> My feeling is that if it is a wine "tasting" competition it is about judging end result (i.e. the taste) and not the processes to get to the taste.




I totally agree, it's a tasting competition!!! And one who grows there own grapes should have a huge advantage. If one can not bake a better scratch cake better than a box cake maybe doesn't deserve to win 



Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## codeman

It's about the final product. I don't care if it's fresh grapes, frozen, concentrate, kits, etc. If it tastes good that's all that matters. If someone can take a low end kit and make iy taste great then they deserve to win (if in competition)


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## seth8530

Not to step on any toes, but taste is only one of many parts that are judged in a competition. And since I can not say it any better than bzac, I will quote him.


> you under stand how wines are judged , the mystery of why kits to well in competitions is obvious. check out the score sheets
> 
> you get ten points for visual , colour and clarity so if the wine is clear , not hazy and sediment free , you’ll get ten points . now with a kit the clarity is aided by using the strong two part clarifiers that come with every kit and the colour is extracted and enhanced by the manufacturer , no skill or judgement of the winemaker is needed to get ten points. where as in a grape wine , grape quality , extraction, maceration temperature , filtering / fining , racking and time and a fair amount of skill is required to get ten points . these are all variables requiring skill to get right . vs , follow the instructions.
> 
> for the nose and flavor categories , again these are set by the manufacturer for the most part . deciding to add more oak or barrel age is about the only area the winemaker has influence over . even the cheapest kit should be able to get 20 out of 30 in each of these categories .
> 
> and in balance as these are all set and adjusted by the manufacturer and require no skill to get right and are not subject to fruit variation. so again even the most basic kit should be able to get 20 out of 30. so just following the instructions you should get 70 points with the cheapest Costco 45$ kit. spend a little more to get a bit better quality and flavor and 75 points and a bronze medal should be achievable painting by numbers / following the instructions
> 
> . if you can’t get a bronze medal with a 6 week mid range kit by following the instructions and giving it a year to age , you should give up winemaking. where as , it can take a few years to master all the skills it takes to get a grape wine in the zone , every time you make it. a grape winemaker has dozens of critical decisions to make and skills to master , it takes about 4 to make a kit. and that ease of use in making an acceptable , reliable product is a great thing for those who want to make wine very easily at home, its is the best thing about kits.



Perhaps I don't agree that if you don't win after aging a kit wine for a year you should give up... But overall, I think he gave a very good sypnopsis of why kit wines are at an unfair advantage in competition against grape wines.


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## bkisel

seth8530 said:


> Not to step on any toes, but taste is only one of many parts that are judged in a competition. And since I can not say it any better than bzac, I will quote him.
> 
> 
> Perhaps I don't agree that if you don't win after aging a kit wine for a year you should give up... But overall, I think he gave a very good sypnopsis of why kit wines are at an unfair advantage in competition against grape wines.



Very informative. So why do kit and grape wine makers compete with each other in the first place? Don't the entrees know that it is an "open" (my term) competition? If so then, in my opinion, any advantage real or imagined shouldn't be labeled "unfair".


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## ibglowin

I have made too many kits to remember an exact count but out of let's say the 50 or so Ultra Premium red wine kits probably only 3 or 4 came ANYWHERE near any wine I have ever made from fresh grapes. I personally don't think they can compete (kits) head to head. 

I do see and understand the argument from a "purist" standpoint and the Box Cake vs Made from Scratch is a good analogy. I am sure one's personal palette can and does come into play here as if you personally like the profile that a kit wine makes out of the box then why go to all the extra trouble (and expense for extra equipment) to make wine from fresh materials if your happy with the outcome from a boxed product which you can make on your schedule and not Mother Nature's.


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## DoctorCAD

Seth, if any of that were true, then why even bother to judge the kit wines at all? I mean (according to the quote you posted) a monkey could make a $1000 bottle of wine by farting near a kit wine.

Thats a load of crap and we all know it. I can make a kit wine that follows the instructions to the letter and if I don't have good technique or good sanitation, I will make alcoholic swill. Hardly a "bronze medal winning" wine. 

Its almost like the author thinks that no skill, patience, technique or "art" are required to make kit wines taste as good as possible.

As to judging, I can't see any difference between grape, kit, or concentrate wines that are judged on clarity, nose, color and taste. 

What about juice buckets???


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## franki1926

I think kits have a clear advantage in contests ( look a the results from this years winemaker amateur results) seems that it was dominated by kits.


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## WineQuest

OK, my take on the topic. I am not saying that either way of making wine is superior or inferior but they are very different and one should not be compared to the either in a competitive environment nor in an environment where feedback is given without acknowledging the difference. The fact is the two methods require a very different skill set, again not superior or inferior but just plain different.


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## JohnT

Before this gets too heated, let me point out that by saying kits and grapes should not be judged side by side, you are in fact inferring that kit wines are inferior. We winemakers are artists that are very proud of our work, so this could be offensive to some. 

There is no harm in having them compete side by side. I know of some kit wines that have won gold in competitions and some wines from grapes that were simply not fit for consumption. If it is true that kits are at a disadvantage, then wouldn't any award won be much more meaningful? Remember, most competitions rate on a point system. Just because one wine wins gold, does not mean that another can't will gold too!

I say let them all compete together and let the judges decide. It is not like we are talking about having Welch's wine compete too! 

johnT.


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## Rocky

Interesting and much discussed topic and I would like to weigh in with my view. First, let me reiterate that I have been involved in various levels of winemaking for many years, going back to the late 1940's when all I did was strip grapes from the stems. I have made wine from grapes with family and alone, I have made wine from fresh juice purchased at a winery, from kits, from commercial juice buckets and from other fresh fruits and processed fruit juices. I have made great wine from grapes and from juice buckets and kits and I have made some really bad wine from grapes, juice buckets and kits. For that matter, I have had really good cakes made from a box and really bad cake "made from scratch."

Here are some random thoughts on the subject:

1. I don't believe the difficulty or the travails suffered by the winemaker is any part of the judging in wine competitions. I believe the competition is and should be based on the end product.

2. I think many people who make wine from grapes enjoy the "tradition" of doing so much like someone that grows or buys tomatoes and make their own sauces, even though just as good or better alternatives are available commercially. 

3. Making wine from kits, fresh juice or juice buckets is much easier to do and more predictable than making wine from grapes and requires less equipment, time, space and clean up and could be more economical, all things considered.

4. Making wine from kits, fresh juice or juice buckets, for me, has resulted in wines that are many times better than wine that I have made from grapes and certainly easier to do and more consistent.

5. Making wine from fresh grapes may result in a wine that is marginally better than a kit, juice buckets or fresh juice, but see point 3, above.

6. I note that when people argue the merits of grapes vs. kits, juice buckets or fresh juice produced wine, it almost always is those who make wine from grapes criticizing those who do not and not the other way around. I wonder why this is so. I believe that in some cases it could be:

a. they make wine from grapes only to say that "they make wine from grapes" as in, look at me and what I can do, i.e. they have a psychological need for the attention it brings.
b. they are understandably peeved because they go through so much "trouble" making their wine for a product that may be (arguably) better than the other methods.
c. they understand that kits are improving and continuing to improve and they have railed against them for so long they cannot find a delicate way out.

In any case, people have to decide for themselves what best works for them. At this point in my life, it is kits, juice buckets and fresh juice. The only reason I would make wine from fresh grapes (and I have no plans to do so) would be to satisfy point 2, above. On the other hand, if you find that grapes are the way for you to go, knock yourself out!


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## seth8530

DoctorCAD said:


> Seth, if any of that were true, then why even bother to judge the kit wines at all? I mean (according to the quote you posted) a monkey could make a $1000 bottle of wine by farting near a kit wine.
> 
> Thats a load of crap and we all know it. I can make a kit wine that follows the instructions to the letter and if I don't have good technique or good sanitation, I will make alcoholic swill. Hardly a "bronze medal winning" wine.
> 
> Its almost like the author thinks that no skill, patience, technique or "art" are required to make kit wines taste as good as possible.
> 
> As to judging, I can't see any difference between grape, kit, or concentrate wines that are judged on clarity, nose, color and taste.
> 
> What about juice buckets???



Why do you doubt it is true? And yes, making the assumption that is true, kit wines do in fact deserve to be judged. I just believe they should be in a separate side of the competition. And no, according my quote, a monkey could not fart and make a medal winning wine.

The reason that I support that they should be judged seperatly is just for the same reasons you mentioned. If the only two things one needs to practice are good general fermentation technique and sanitation then I believe that the skills needed to make the two approaches are in foundation not equal and thus judging them together are not fair.

From what I have heard from the author he does not think that kit wines do not require skill or are not relevant from an artistic point of view, its just that the variety and type of skills make them unequatable in competition.



franki1926 said:


> I think kits have a clear advantage in contests ( look a the results from this years winemaker amateur results) seems that it was dominated by kits.



That is one of the things I would have liked to have pointed out, but I am glad someone other than me did it. And this is a year to year occurrence. I do not think the problem is that the grape wine makers can not make good wine, I just think that the way wine is judged is in kit wine makers favor.



JohnT said:


> Before this gets too heated, let me point out that by saying kits and grapes should not be judged side by side, you are in fact inferring that kit wines are inferior. We winemakers are artists that are very proud of our work, so this could be offensive to some.
> 
> There is no harm in having them compete side by side. I know of some kit wines that have won gold in competitions and some wines from grapes that were simply not fit for consumption. If it is true that kits are at a disadvantage, then wouldn't any award won be much more meaningful? Remember, most competitions rate on a point system. Just because one wine wins gold, does not mean that another can't will gold too!
> 
> I say let them all compete together and let the judges decide. It is not like we are talking about having Welch's wine compete too!
> 
> johnT.



The issue is that in competition, kit wines often do not only win, but they inundate the medal booth. There are good kit wines and their are good grape wines, and their are bad takes on both of them. 

Also, as I mentioned before, I think that kit wines are at an unfair advantage, instead of a dis advantage. The issue with comparing them side by side is that all competitions judge the wine/beer/cider/mead relative to each other whether they should or not. It happens, it is not supposed to, but that is how people work.

I just think it is a bit weird and unfair that kit wines should compete with grape/ whole fruit/white juice wines when the levels of technique and involvement in them are not even comparable.


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## seth8530

GaDawg said:


> Seth seems to be saying that kits make a superior wine and should not be compared to grape wine. And he says he only make wine from grape. So should we conclude that Seth is only interested in making inferior wine and does not want his inferior wine to be compared to superior kit wine because he feels he does not have a chance to win? Bless his heart.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Wine Making



Sure, if that is really what you want to think.


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## blazerpb

Wow Rocky !!! Your opinion on #6 points a b c almost contradicts when you wrote "it almost always is those who make wine from grapes criticizing those who do not and not the other way around."
Points 1 thru 5 are very good and I could not argue.


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## WineQuest

Rocky said:


> Interesting and much discussed topic and I would like to weigh in with my view. First, let me reiterate that I have been involved in various levels of winemaking for many years, going back to the late 1940's when all I did was strip grapes from the stems. I have made wine from grapes with family and alone, I have made wine from fresh juice purchased at a winery, from kits, from commercial juice buckets and from other fresh fruits and processed fruit juices. I have made great wine from grapes and from juice buckets and kits and I have made some really bad wine from grapes, juice buckets and kits. For that matter, I have had really good cakes made from a box and really bad cake "made from scratch."
> 
> Here are some random thoughts on the subject:
> 
> 1. I don't believe the difficulty or the travails suffered by the winemaker is any part of the judging in wine competitions. I believe the competition is and should be based on the end product.
> 
> 2. I think many people who make wine from grapes enjoy the "tradition" of doing so much like someone that grows or buys tomatoes and make their own sauces, even though just as good or better alternatives are available commercially.
> 
> 3. Making wine from kits, fresh juice or juice buckets is much easier to do and more predictable than making wine from grapes and requires less equipment, time, space and clean up and could be more economical, all things considered.
> 
> 4. Making wine from kits, fresh juice or juice buckets, for me, has resulted in wines that are many times better than wine that I have made from grapes and certainly easier to do and more consistent.
> 
> 5. Making wine from fresh grapes may result in a wine that is marginally better than a kit, juice buckets or fresh juice, but see point 3, above.
> 
> 6. I note that when people argue the merits of grapes vs. kits, juice buckets or fresh juice produced wine, it almost always is those who make wine from grapes criticizing those who do not and not the other way around. I wonder why this is so. I believe that in some cases it could be:
> 
> a. they make wine from grapes only to say that "they make wine from grapes" as in, look at me and what I can do, i.e. they have a psychological need for the attention it brings.
> b. they are understandably peeved because they go through so much "trouble" making their wine for a product that may be (arguably) better than the other methods.
> c. they understand that kits are improving and continuing to improve and they have railed against them for so long they cannot find a delicate way out.
> 
> In any case, people have to decide for themselves what best works for them. At this point in my life, it is kits, juice buckets and fresh juice. The only reason I would make wine from fresh grapes (and I have no plans to do so) would be to satisfy point 2, above. On the other hand, if you find that grapes are the way for you to go, knock yourself out!




Now who is saying offensive things?

I was very clear in my post that I don't thing either way is superior or inferior bit that they are different processes and therefor should not be competing against each other.


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## ibglowin

Reminder. Keep this discussion civilized. If you agree or disagree on a point fine but no personal attacks.


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## botigol

In regards to the 'medal count' discussion, wouldn't we need to know the proportion of entries of each type in order to decide whether kit wines were disproportionately represented in the medals? On this subject; I have no data on which to base this, just my guess; I bet that there is a larger number of kit wines entered into a lot of the amateur competitions.


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## GaDawg

Seth, IMHO we have moved way beyond the point that this is a worthwhile discussion.


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## seth8530

botigol said:


> In regards to the 'medal count' discussion, wouldn't we need to know the proportion of entries of each type in order to decide whether kit wines were disproportionately represented in the medals? On this subject; I have no data on which to base this, just my guess; I bet that there is a larger number of kit wines entered into a lot of the amateur competitions.



Yes, that is also important to consider. I would not be surprised if their are more kit entrees, but the question to find out would be just how many more.


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## Rocky

blazerpb said:


> Wow Rocky !!! Your opinion on #6 points a b c almost contradicts when you wrote "it almost always is those who make wine from grapes criticizing those who do not and not the other way around."
> Points 1 thru 5 are very good and I could not argue.



I was opining on just why they find it, in MOST cases, so necessary to do so. If you took it as attacking them rather than trying to understand why and suggesting some reasons that I think are plausible, I regret your misunderstanding. In any case, I did say "almost always" so I am covered.


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## Rocky

WineQuest said:


> Now who is saying offensive things?
> 
> I was very clear in my post that I don't thing either way is superior or inferior bit that they are different processes and therefor should not be competing against each other.


 
What, exactly, is offensive and to whom is it offensive?

Secondly, why are people so hung up on the "process" rather than the result? 

This reminds me of an incident from many years ago when I lived in Dayton and we had a neighborhood tennis tournament. The person that won had a very "ugly game" (he did not hold his racquet correctly, did not follow through, wore the wrong shoes, etc.) but he beat all the "club" players with their designer outfits, great racquet preparation, stroke and follow through, etc. After the tournament was over, someone said, "Tony should not have won, his game is terrible. How could they give the trophy to him." I said, "We gave the trophy to him because he won the majority of sets in his matches by taking at least 6 games by at least a margin of 2. That was the requirement to win." How he got the ball back over the net, how ungainly was his serve, his forehand, his backhand, etc. did not matter. There were no points for style, just the result.


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## ibglowin

You can download the entire 2014 Winemaker Mag Amateur Wine Contest results from their website. Over 3000 entries. They do not separate Kits from fresh grapes anywhere in the results. Kits go head to head. Sometimes the fresh grapes win, sometimes the Kits win. I guess they only care about the finished product and keeping it open to as many contestants as they can garner since they charge $25 a entry. Lots of kits in the medal count. I would guess to say that this competition has more kits than any other amateur competition. If anyone knows of any competition where Kits are in a whole different category on their own please point it out.


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## codeman

Can't we all just get along?


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## JohnT

If I may, Let me just re-emphasize a point I made earlier.. 

In most competitions, Wines are judged on their own accord. Most competitions can have several gold, silver, and bronze medals in any given category. The fact that there are many good wines or many bad wines entered does not really influence any chance at getting a medal. Medals are awarded as a result of points given and not how good or bad other wines happen to be. 

With this in mind, having a separate category should not matter. The wine will still be awarded the same points and will still have the same shot at winning a medal.

Rocky, I hear what you are saying. I used to be one of those that wore the "only make from whole grapes" badge. Several years ago, I saw the error of my ways and now believe in the quality of kit wines. 

I continue to make from whole fresh grapes mostly because of the following reasons. I do not discount the possibility that I will switch to kits when I get older though....

1) I find it cheaper since I already own the equipment. 
2) I have a nice size labor force (Family/Friends) willing to take part in crush
3) I do no know of any kit that will produce 500 liters of wine
4) Yes, tradition plays a part. The grape crush is a annual party the most look forward to. I actually have friends and family member flying in for the event.


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## Rocky

John, you have an ideal situation for a person who enjoys the tradition of making wine from grapes. When we made wine from grapes at home it was a weekend event. Grandfather, Father, Uncles, Cousins all pitched in to help and we made a large volume of wine, usually between 2 and 5 barrels, depending on existing inventory, the quality of the grapes, money available, etc. (Yes, 5 barrels is over the 200 gallon limit, but I would guess that the statute of limitations has expired on this.) Grandma, Mom and Aunts did the cooking and it was very memorable. We would go through up to 100 boxes of grapes in some years. I went to school with purple hands for weeks.

The largest batch I make now is a triple or a quadruple is I am making my Zinfandel-Muscat blend, as I am doing now. I guess I am making between 100 and 150 gallons a year or almost the equivalent of 2 or 3 barrels. I am making more of a variety of wines and that I another thing I like about kits. 

I think I may have unintentionally offended some by my comments but that was not my intent. More than anything, I believe people should do what they feel comfortable doing and no one should criticize their choice. All situations are different. Yours is ideal for making wine from grapes and/or kits. The best of both worlds.


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## jensmith

Sooo... Wines are judged against a score sheet, not each other. In that case how the wine compares to other wines does not come onto play. Correct? Each bottle gets its own score. Not a better or worse then some other bottle. 





Sent from my iPod touch using Wine Making


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## ibglowin

Correct. There is no predetermined limit to the number of Gold, Silver or Bronze Medals. If your wine attains the minimum score for that medal you win irregardless of how many others have already achieved that score.



jensmith said:


> Sooo... Wines are judged against a score sheet, not each other. In that case how the wine compares to other wines does not come onto play. Correct? Each bottle gets its own score. Not a better or worse then some other bottle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Wine Making


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## jensmith

Ok. Thanks.
In that case I do not care how or from what some other wine in the compition is made. My own personal score is all that maters. 



Sent from my iPod touch using Wine Making


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## JohnT

jensmith said:


> ok. Thanks.
> In that case i do not care how or from what some other wine in the compition is made. My own personal score is all that maters.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ipod touch using wine making


 

exactly!!!!!!


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## wineh

ibglowin said:


> You can download the entire 2014 Winemaker Mag Amateur Wine Contest results from their website. Over 3000 entries. They do not separate Kits from fresh grapes anywhere in the results. Kits go head to head. Sometimes the fresh grapes win, sometimes the Kits win. I guess they only care about the finished product and keeping it open to as many contestants as they can garner since they charge $25 a entry. Lots of kits in the medal count. I would guess to say that this competition has more kits than any other amateur competition. If anyone knows of any competition where Kits are in a whole different category on their own please point it out.


The Winemaker mag contest also has "Best in show kit/concentrate" and "Best in show estate grown" to showcase the different strategies. The grand champion wine is usually (but not always) made from grapes. One year, a mead won.


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