# Ebulliometer



## RegionRat (Dec 28, 2012)

First off, has anyone tried to make one. I was looking and I think I can buy all the glassware and put one together for around $150. Secondly I can save about $35 of the build cost if someone that owns one would shoot me a PM and give me a little info. 

I know it is not something that is needed for wine making. I am just OCD enough and love to figure these thing out, the building part that is.

Thanks


----------



## Runningwolf (Dec 28, 2012)

Really, out of glass? Aren't they usually made out of brass? If you could make one for $150 that would be awesome since they cost close to $800. I am looking at a distillation apratus for the purpose. They cost about $230 complete with a heating mantle.


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 28, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Really, out of glass? Aren't they usually made out of brass? If you could make one for $150 that would be awesome since they cost close to $800. I am looking at a distillation apratus for the purpose. They cost about $230 complete with a heating mantle.



Absolutely out of glass. I have read up on the process and it is really a simple procedure. In a nutshell it is just the difference in boiling points of 2 liquids; water and your wine sample, at a given barometric pressure. I really dont think one would have to buy a fancy stainless steel device. The more I think about it I am gonna pull the trigger and order all the stuff. 


RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Dec 28, 2012)

This is very cool and I'm very interested in hearing how you make out. Please keep us posted and include pictures.


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 28, 2012)

I just ran the numbers in my head and figured around $150. Okay I was off a little. $112.08 from one site and $86.48 from Amazon. But the Amazon order had a few things in it for something else. Lets keep our fingers crossed and see if this thing will work.

RR


----------



## barryjo (Dec 29, 2012)

Interesting you should bring up the ebuillometer. I asked a regional wine supply house about one. They had never heard of it!!! Our local winery does use one.
As a tinkerer myself, I understand the challenge. But if you are looking to find ABV, go to www.fermcalc.com and near the end, select the Honneyman method. Supposedly just as accurate and WAY cheaper.


----------



## Runningwolf (Dec 29, 2012)

barryjo said:


> Interesting you should bring up the ebuillometer. I asked a regional wine supply house about one. They had never heard of it!!! Our local winery does use one.
> As a tinkerer myself, I understand the challenge. But if you are looking to find ABV, go to www.fermcalc.com and near the end, select the Honneyman method. Supposedly just as accurate and WAY cheaper.


 
A wine supply house that never heard of a ebuillometer? I wonder how experienced they are in the wine making business. I agree very few places sell them due to the cost. You can purchase one through Presque Isle Wine Cellars. 
I don't think the Rat is looking for a quick calculator for the abv. As a tinkerer, he's out for the challenge and I'm curious as h#ll on how it turns out. 
I'm seriously looking at a distillation apparatus for doing the same thing plus checking for VA.


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you.

There are numerous way so figure ABV using math and hydrometers. I have read about most of them and was already aware of the site you directed me to.

With topping up, back sweetening, blending etc it becomes more difficult to get a true reading. I feel the accuracy of the ABV for the home wine maker is really not needed. I really don't care if my wine is 12.3% or 11.6% ABV. I really only care that the ABV is somewhere above 8% and a little less the rocket fuel. My main concern is taste.

I am doing this for no other reason then I like the challenge of figuring things like this out. Plus it is one more gadget to display when I am showing my wine lab to friends, lol.

The owner of my LHBS, who also runs a commercial winery, told me he is required by law to get accurate ABV of the wines her sells. He does not own an ebuillometer. He sends sample out for analysis. He was very interested when I mention I was going to try my hand at building one. Maybe I can repay him for the kindness he has shown me in plethora of questions I have for him when I go to his shop.

Update on glassware. UPS Tracking Number say first package will be here on Monday. Woop Whoop! Pictures to follow.

RR


----------



## barryjo (Dec 30, 2012)

Region Rat, you have way more motivation than I do. Congratulations!!!!While I like a challenge, I also subscribe to the KISS method!
My challenges come in the form of making wine out of available bases. One of my first was an onion wine. Several folks liked it for cooking.
As for the Honneyman method, the good thing about that is you can determine ABV just before or as you are bottling. And I find that one of the first questions people ask me about my wine is "how much alcohol"?
Don't know why. 
Keep us informed on the project.


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 30, 2012)

barryjo said:


> Region Rat, you have way more motivation than I do. Congratulations!!!!While I like a challenge, I also subscribe to the KISS method!
> My challenges come in the form of making wine out of available bases. One of my first was an onion wine. Several folks liked it for cooking.
> As for the Honneyman method, the good thing about that is you can determine ABV just before or as you are bottling. And I find that one of the first questions people ask me about my wine is "how much alcohol"?
> Don't know why.
> Keep us informed on the project.



On one hand I am a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. method. On the other hand I love to tinker with stuff. I have heard the term, " Gadget-Man" more then once. 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA5II5AlO7w"]Where does he get all those toys?[/ame]

Like you I am looking forward to the challenge of making wine from different things. Currently I have a dozen different wines aging. And at least that many more ready to start. Only 2 of them from kits. I will post about those as they near completion.

RR


----------



## KevininPa (Dec 30, 2012)

What are your plans for replicating the thermometer and calculation disc?


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 30, 2012)

KevininPa said:


> What are your plans for replicating the thermometer and calculation disc?




Those 2 items account for 1/2 the cost of this build. I found a place that sells all the replacement parts for the big dollar Stainless Steel model. Thermometer $70,OUCH and the disk $35.

I down loaded a picture of the disc but it was too pixelated when I tried to blow it up and make my own.

I looked high and low for a narrow range thermometer that would work but failed. 

Any suggestions?

RR


----------



## ColdClimateWines (Dec 30, 2012)

Could you pass on the site with the replacement parts. A fire damaged our disk, though the thermometer and still survived. The cool box it came in is overly charcoaled. 

I think if you are a good tinkerer you could build the still fairly easy. If you know mig a stainless rig would be safer when you knock it over with your elbow. Good luck!


----------



## Runningwolf (Dec 30, 2012)

These parts can be purchased at Presque Isle Wine Cellars.

*Ebulliometer Thermometer, for Electric Ebulliometer *

$66.50 




Ebulliometer Thermometer for the Electric Ebulliometer
[Product Details...] 

Quantity: 


*Ebulliometer Disc for Calculating Results *

$42.25 




Ebulliometer disc for calculating results.
[Product Details...] 

Quantity:


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 30, 2012)

ColdClimateWines said:


> I think if you are a good tinkerer you could build the still fairly easy. If you know mig a stainless rig would be safer when you knock it over with your elbow. Good luck!



I was going to make the make the condenser out of copper tubing but the cost shot way up when you started adding the cost of the specialty fitting needed. The condenser I chose was $14. I am more worried about breaking that $70 thermometer.

Check your inbox.

RR


----------



## ColdClimateWines (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks for the note. Yeah it's amazing how expensive it is and ours is mercury, which I have banned all CFL bulbs from the winery to avoid a superfund site. Basic chemware will build a still fairly inexpensive, compared to the $850 price tag.

However you might think about an inexpensive candy therm or even a good meat therm. Get a rubber cork drill a hole to seal. You do not really need the fancy drain fittings, just pour the wine out. The cooling tower or top part just fill and empty. You could make that out of 1 inch Cu pipe.


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 30, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> These parts can be purchased at Presque Isle Wine Cellars.
> 
> *Ebulliometer Thermometer, for Electric Ebulliometer *
> 
> ...



I found that site last night but if would not let me add things to the shopping cart. I even regesterd as a user.
I found the things I needed at _Davison Winery Supplies
_(I dont know if i can post the direct link as I was criticized by a Moderator for doing that) PM me if you want the direct link. The prices are similar. 

The thermometer from you source says 'Ebulliometer Thermometer, for Electric Ebulliometer' I wonder if the 'electric' part makes a difference.

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Dec 30, 2012)

It does matter and I just noticed that. If you look further down the page they have the one you need.


----------



## RegionRat (Dec 30, 2012)

I wish I could find the thermometer that has the sliding scale on it. I have never seen it in use but I guess you set you get you boiling point of water, zero it, and boil you sample then read ABV right on the thermometer

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euKt2X_rxk4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euKt2X_rxk4[/ame]

RR


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 5, 2013)

*Update*

I got all the glassware today. Now just waiting on one more package with thermometer and disc.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 5, 2013)

Now it is beginning to shape up.


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 5, 2013)

Hey Rat, things are looking good. I like your choice of instruments. Did you get your digital refractometer on Amazon? I got the same one for a fraction of the price elsewhere.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 5, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> Hey Rat, things are looking good. I like your choice of instruments. Did you get your digital refractors on Amazon? I got the same one for a fraction of the price elsewhere.



Thanks, I just hope the dam thing works, lol. 

Yes I got it on Amazon. I never knew anything like that existed. While I was researching how an Ebulliometer works I saw a youtube video of someone using one. All I can say is WOW, best money spent EVER! If you dont mind sharing where you got yours.

Dose anyone know what the_ Ebulliometer Ruler_ does? Do I need it? I cant find any reference on its need of use.

RR


----------



## GreginND (Jan 5, 2013)

The thermometer is critical. Accurate results depend on very high precision temperature measurements. A meat thermometer or even a standard laboratory thermometer will not work. I looked at the thermometers that come with the ebulliometers and they have a very narrow range (+87 to +101 °C) with 0.1 degree precision. I have searched our laboratory supply company websites and can't find one similar and as accurate. 

Having never used an ebulliometer before I'm not sure what the calculating disc is for. Is it just a scale for converting the temp difference to alcohol? In that case you may be able to just calculate it yourself. Presumably there's a formula to do so. Or does the disc also compensate for atmospheric pressure changes? I don't know.


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 5, 2013)

is that like the scale for determining the BP of water and then the corresponding amount of alcohol? The ones that I used had a dial...


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 5, 2013)

GreginND said:


> The thermometer is critical. Accurate results depend on very high precision temperature measurements. A meat thermometer or even a standard laboratory thermometer will not work. I looked at the thermometers that come with the ebulliometers and they have a very narrow range (+87 to +101 °C) with 0.1 degree precision. I have searched our laboratory supply company websites and can't find one similar and as accurate.
> 
> Having never used an ebulliometer before I'm not sure what the calculating disc is for. Is it just a scale for converting the temp difference to alcohol? In that case you may be able to just calculate it yourself. Presumably there's a formula to do so. Or does the disc also compensate for atmospheric pressure changes? I don't know.



I could not agree more about the thermometer. I found several places that sell the exact one I need. They are not cheap!

I know what the disc does. I was asking about the "Ebulliometer Ruler." I cant find anything on what it is for or how to use it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1ST2Yd-XU"]Here is a video of an Ebulliometer being used.[/ame]

RR


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 5, 2013)

Hokapsig said:


> is that like the scale for determining the BP of water and then the corresponding amount of alcohol? The ones that I used had a dial...



That is what I am thinking. Same thing as the disc just a different shape.

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 5, 2013)

RegionRat said:


> Thanks, I just hope the dam thing works, lol.
> 
> Yes I got it on Amazon. I never knew anything like that existed. While I was researching how an Ebulliometer works I saw a youtube video of someone using one. All I can say is WOW, best money spent EVER! If you dont mind sharing where you got yours.
> 
> RR


 
I use mine all the time when starting a wine. It's a lot easier to use than the regular refractometer. It's easier in the sense it's sometimes difficult to get a sharp line to look at when looking through a hand held.


----------



## tingo (Jan 5, 2013)

I know this thread is about ebulliometers but running wolf and rat have peaked my curiosity once again. I guess I was always under the impression refractometers were best used for testing fruit before harvesting. So now I ask, besides requiring the use of less wine, what is the benefit of using a refractometer to measure brix over a hydrometer?


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 5, 2013)

You're absolutely right and that when I use it. To get a brix reading from crushed fruit or juice before fermentation. It is faster and and only need a few drops rather then filling a 250ml flask up with wine for a brix reading from a hydrometer. 

With the right spread sheet you can continue to use a refractometer after fermentation begins.

Tingo one other thing; don't get caught up or confused with what is a necessity and just plain "boys and their toys".


----------



## ColdClimateWines (Jan 5, 2013)

The first step is to boil water in the ebuliometer and take accurate note of the temp. Here in the Adirondack Coast at about 180ft above sea level the range is 96 to 100 degreesC. You can tell you have reached boil when the temp holds for a minute.
Next mt the h2o out and put in vino , about 10 ml if I recall . Replace the water in the top with fresh cool water . Again heat the vino to boiling and note the temp . Vino will boil at a much lower temp than H2o.
The get the wheel and place the one pointer to your water boil temp e.g. 98C . Tighten the nut and line up the vino boil temp the indicator calculates the equasion(sort of like a slide ruler) and indicates at the arrow what your ABV is. 

Sorry if I confused you. Without the wheel in front of me I forget which indicated is exactly which. Remember, you have to check the water first every time, on different days or even the same day if a pressure front is moving thru, cause the water boil temp can change by a few degrees.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 5, 2013)

tingo said:


> I know this thread is about ebulliometers but running wolf and rat have peaked my curiosity once again. I guess I was always under the impression refractometers were best used for testing fruit before harvesting. So now I ask, besides requiring the use of less wine, what is the benefit of using a refractometer to measure brix over a hydrometer?



Sorry about getting off topic. Maybe should have started another thread. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpkgZlPcdPk"] Here is a video[/ame].

That video shows the easy of use.

Like Wolf was saying. It is so quick and easy to use. I use an eyedropper rather then a wine thief.






Runningwolf said:


> You're absolutely right and that when I use it. To get a brix reading from crushed fruit or juice before fermentation. It is faster and and only need a few drops rather then filling a 250ml flask up with wine for a brix reading from a hydrometer.
> 
> With the right spread sheet you can continue to use a refractometer after fermentation begins.
> 
> Tingo one other thing; don't get caught up or confused with what is a necessity and just plain "boys and their toys".



It does only read Brix but, so what. There are apps and charts to convert. This forum seems to rely on sg. Other forums and Greg at my wine supply shop uses Brix. Call it what you may it all boils down to being able to keep track of fermentable sugar. Do you need it, absolutely not


Oh yeah the_ Boys and Their Toys _does apply here!

RR


----------



## tingo (Jan 5, 2013)

I love toys, thats why I ask..... Now I need to go shopping lol


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 5, 2013)

tingo said:


> I love toys, thats why I ask..... Now I need to go shopping lol



I got mine from Amazon. Runningwolf said he got his somewhere else and he did better on price.

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 5, 2013)

I also got my at Amazon. I paid $139 2-3 years ago. I see the price has gone up just a bit.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002NX0WHS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 6, 2013)

Craigslist in Harrisburg had a refractometer for $50. I've been searching for a used ebulliometer, which is one of the items that PA LCB wants to see when opening a winery to see how you determine ABV for paying taxes on your alcohol produced.


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 6, 2013)

Refractometers can be found anywhere from $29 on sale around the holidays to well over $100. Shop around and compare what you're getting.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 8, 2013)

*Update: The Damn Thing Works!!*

I got the remaining items for my latest project today.Well, I could not wait to try it out. I dug through all my notes to find something bulk aging that has been topped off with least amount of water. 

Anyway here is what I got:

With Hydrometer; Hard Cider: sg to start 1.065, sg now .998. According to the math that should be 9.1 ABV (with narrow range hydrometers)

With my contraption; Boiling point distilled water 99.6° F. Boiling point of sample 92.6° F. According to the dial I am dead center between 9 and 9.1 ABV!!

Woop Woop!!

Let me do a little tweaking and I will post a video.

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 8, 2013)

Rat this is really cool. Looking forward to the video.


----------



## galen1 (Jan 19, 2013)

I like your enthusiasm towards being accurate with alc. in your wine. Yes wineries must be within 1% abv. Region Rat, your on the right track and I hope your glass equipment works but should be cal. with an ebulliometer. I have been taught that you should never use a refractometer after fermentation starts. Alcohol renders it useless. It will give you a reading but its not accurate. As for the ebulliometer, well it's built for one reason, accuracy. Again, I was taught that the wine sample must boil within 2% points of the water boiling point. This means that you must dilute the sample usually 4/1 or 5/1 to get close to the water boiling reference point. This is done because of accuracy. Then take the results and times it by 4 or 5. The farther away the less accurate. I have tried this with full strength, half, it matters. If any of you want to send me a 100mil sample, I would be glad to test it for you. There are wineries that I have visited that don't know how to use an ebulliometer correctly. Hope this helps.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 20, 2013)

galen1 said:


> I like your enthusiasm towards being accurate with alc. in your wine. Yes wineries must be within 1% abv. Region Rat, your on the right track and I hope your glass equipment works but should be cal. with an ebulliometer. I have been taught that you should never use a refractometer after fermentation starts. Alcohol renders it useless. It will give you a reading but its not accurate. As for the ebulliometer, well it's built for one reason, accuracy. Again, I was taught that the wine sample must boil within 2% points of the water boiling point. This means that you must dilute the sample usually 4/1 or 5/1 to get close to the water boiling reference point. This is done because of accuracy. Then take the results and times it by 4 or 5. The farther away the less accurate. I have tried this with full strength, half, it matters. If any of you want to send me a 100mil sample, I would be glad to test it for you. There are wineries that I have visited that don't know how to use an ebulliometer correctly. Hope this helps.



Pleasure meeting you, thanks for the reply.

I built the ebulliometer for two reasons. First to get an idea of the ABV and second to see if I could build one. I really do not think it needs to be calibrated against the values from a commercially made ebulliometer .As I do not have any formal chemistry or physics training other the basic High School and a few classes in college. The physics/ chemistry is the should be the same in what I have built and what you are using. I am not a commercial winery so I really don't need to have 100% accurate results. I am happy being 3-5% of actual ABV. I would like to send you a sample you us to compare results. I would like to know more about the procedure you mentioned using. There is not a lot of information on the use of an ebulliometer on the internet.

The refractometer I bought before I knew the the alcohol changes the value of the reading. But that makes sense now. It is for testing sugar concentration in a water solution. I was kinda bummed thinking I had wasted that money. I emailed the manufacturer and the pointed to the More Wine web site. Where found an Excell Work Sheet to do the conversions form Brix to sg.. All is well now.

Thanks again for your observations.

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 20, 2013)

Hey Rat, I didn't want to get into it that deep earlier but since you brought it up, I have used that same spreadsheet quiet a few times. It gives you a nice electronic copy of all of your notes. Just be sure to include your first brix reading with it.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 20, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> Hey Rat, I didn't want to get into it that deep earlier but since you brought it up, I have used that same spreadsheet quiet a few times. It gives you a nice electronic copy of all of your notes. Just be sure to include your first brix reading with it.



Please in the future get deep. I am just learning this stuff. 

I have been taking reading with the meter and with a hydrometer at the same time. I have notice the sample needs to be 'degassed' to get a good reading with the meter. I also have found the readings differ from time to time. The jury is still out is I will continue to use it during fermentation.

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 20, 2013)

Your sample needs to be degassed and around 68* to get a good hydrometer reading.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 20, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> Your sample needs to be degassed and around 68* to get a good hydrometer reading.



Temp is always around 70*. I have a water bath with aquarium heater that the fermenters sit in. With the meter I see bubbles form on the glass and it throws off the reading. I should also degass the sample for the hydrometer? I have just been spinning the hydrometer to get the bubbles off of it. 

RR


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 20, 2013)

These very bubbles and the ones you don't see can lift your hydrometer giving it a false reading.


----------



## RegionRat (Jan 20, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> These very bubbles and the ones you don't see can lift your hydrometer giving it a false reading.



Roger that.

RR


----------



## galen1 (Jan 20, 2013)

PM me your number and when to call RR. I'll explain it to you as it was me.


----------



## montanarick (Feb 7, 2019)

would you happen to have available an itemized list of equipment you used to construct your ebulliometer? thanks!


----------

