# The Oak Thread



## Wade E

Thanks to KevininPa for finding this info from Morewine.com

Help With Choosing Oak!
The following are results from research done at Stavin and should only be used to give an approximation of what each of these three varieties of oak can bring to your wine. Each sample was made using oak cubes with a two-month contact time and evaluated with no bottle ageing. Please note that due to the complexities of flavor chemistry these findings may or may not translate to your wine 100%. However, this information should be helpful in finding out which type of oak may the best to start with as you refine your oaking tastes.

French Oak Flavor Summary
 
All toast levels have a perceived aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel.
French oak has a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes*. (*Especially at higher toast levels.)
As the toast levels increased the fruity descriptor for the wine changed from fresh to jammy to cooked fruit/raisin in character.
American Oak Flavor Summary
The American oak had aromatic sweetness and a campfire/roasted coffee attribute present in all three toast levels, with Medium Plus and Heavy toast having the highest intensity.
American oak had cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy quality.
American Oak imparted mouthfeel/fullness, especially in Medium Plus.
Hungarian Oak Flavor Summary
The Hungarian oak at Medium toast displayed a high perceived-vanillin content, with roasted coffee, bittersweet chocolate and black pepper characters.
Medium Plus and Heavy toast imparted mouthfeel fullness, with only a slight amount of campfire/roasted coffee. Heavy also had pronounced vanillin. At all toast levels, there were unique attributes such as leather and black pepper, not observed in other oak origins.
Some applicable generalizations of toast levels on oak
The lower the toast, the more tannins (“structure”) and lactones (“wood-like” and “coconut”) will be present in each of the oaks.
The higher the toast, the more spice and smoke notes will be present.
The deeper the toast, the more deep the caramel tones will be (moving into butterscotch at medium plus).
Vanilla will increase up through a medium-plus toast and then decrease with a heavy toast and char.
American oak will be more aromatic, but French oak will give more structure (Hungarian will give less than the French but more than the American).
The greater the toast level, the lower the lactones (“wood” and “coconut”) for all three woods.
Medium plus is the most complex of all of the toast levels, and the most popular.


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## DrJayman

Awesome!

That is the most to the point, layman's (although general) description. 

Will give many a great starting basis, and of course the key is tasting your evolving goodness.

thanks.....


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## gird123

Do you ever mix oak varieties? 1/4 cup American and 1/4 French?


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## ibglowin

No reason you can't. Some kits come with both French oak shavings and Hungarian oak beans. All part of the fun!


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## Beer2Wine

Just last night, I tasted a beer that I brewed last year and aged on hungarian med-toast cubes. The hungarian really brought in touches of vanilla and lots of coffee notes! And that was only after sitting on the oak for about a month. 

I have also considered mixing oaks. I see on the labels for a lot of Argentinian wines that they will do a mix of American and French oak aging. I would assume the American imparts the aromatics while the french helps with added body and structure... A match made in heaven


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## joea132

Found this a while back on an internet search and figured I should share. Thanks "More Wine!"

Oak Cube Dosages:

In general:

1 ounce is 34 cubes 2 ounces is 68 cubes 3 ounces is 102 cubes
So, from this we can calculate the following dosage rates:

“1 ounce per 5 gallons” dosage rate is: 34 cubes for 5 gallons
7 cubes (rounded-up from 6.8) for 1 gallon 2 cubes (rounded-up from 1.8) for 1 liter

“2 ounces per 5 gallons” dosage rate is: 68 cubes for 5 gallons
14 cubes (rounded-up from 13.6) for 1 gallon 4 cubes (rounded-up from 3.6) for 1 liter

“2.5 ounces per 5 gallons” dosage rate is: 85 cubes for 5 gallons
18 cubes (rounded-up from 17.5) for 1 gallon 5 cubes (rounded-up from 4.6) for 1 liter

“3 ounces per 5 gallons” dosage rate is: 102 cubes for 5 gallons
21 cubes (rounded-up from 20.4) for 1 gallon 6 cubes (rounded-up from 5.4) for 1 liter

*NOTE: that 2.5 to 3 ounces per 5 gallons is considered to be equivalent to “new barrel” extraction rates.


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## Runningwolf

Good info, thanks for sharing Joe.


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## ibglowin

They have a boatload of great PDF manuals on just about every subject a winemaker could ever need. I have a nice binder filled with all of them.


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## chris889671

I cut wood to heat with and the sawdust looked the same as what I put in my wine. Is there anything special about the oak shavings or could i just use some sawdust? I know I'm just being cheap but we have at least three different types of oak in the woods. I'm sure it would have to be dried.


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## robie

chris889671 said:


> I cut wood to heat with and the sawdust looked the same as what I put in my wine. Is there anything special about the oak shavings or could i just use some sawdust? I know I'm just being cheap but we have at least three different types of oak in the woods. I'm sure it would have to be dried.



The oak used for wine is always white oak. Red oak is never used. Yes, it is dried. Of course all white oak is not the same. Where it is grown and in what does make a difference.

Should you try your own white oak, I would suggest you first do a test case in a small container with less than your full batch of wine. That way, if your oak is not good for wine, you will not have sacrificed the whole batch.

Let us know if you do try your own oak and how it turns out. You never know, you just might discover a new oak forest suitable for wine making.


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## Dufresne11

Okay guys,

I have read the above and it is good information. I am about to oak for the first time. I have those disposbable cheesecloth socks from my LWS and the correct kind of oak for my wine. Here is my plan:

I am going to pull out about a cup of wine before I oak and save for a base line taste test

put my oak in 

wait for a few weeks?? (chime in here as I am pretty confused as to how long I should oak, everyone tells me "to taste") 

Pull out a cup of "oaked" wine and do a taste test with the "pre-oaked" wine to see how I like it.

How long do you oak??


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## TicinoVintner

gird123 said:


> Do you ever mix oak varieties? 1/4 cup American and 1/4 French?



I had the same question then found this thread. 



Beer2Wine said:


> I would assume the American imparts the aromatics while the french helps with added body and structure... A match made in heaven



Which is excatly what I am looking for in my wine. Has anyone actually mixed the two?


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## Wiz

Wade, I have returned to this post several times. Maybe it should be a sticky.

Mike


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## Wade E

TV, yes lots of people and wineries actually use oak in layers. They will keep the wine in one barrel for awhile then switch to accent it it for another period. Wiz, you got it!


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## Flame145

Dufresne11 said:


> Okay guys,
> 
> I have read the above and it is good information. I am about to oak for the first time. I have those disposbable cheesecloth socks from my LWS and the correct kind of oak for my wine. Here is my plan:
> 
> I am going to pull out about a cup of wine before I oak and save for a base line taste test
> 
> put my oak in
> 
> wait for a few weeks?? (chime in here as I am pretty confused as to how long I should oak, everyone tells me "to taste")
> 
> Pull out a cup of "oaked" wine and do a taste test with the "pre-oaked" wine to see how I like it.
> 
> How long do you oak??


 
Oak cubes impart their flavor pretty quickly. I believe I read somewhere that cubes impart all their flavor in 6 weeks.
Even if you taste your wine immediately after pulling your oak out, its not an accurate. It takes time for the oak to meld / blend / mellow / and incorporate into your wine. So the taste will be different from what you taste from when it is just pulled out.


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## scsjohn

*Basic Oaking Question*

Hello all--first post/question:

I've been using a 28 day kit but recently purchased a winexpert trinity red kit. My question is: when do I add the oak? Primary, Secondary Fermentation, or during the Stabilising and clearing stage? The first time I did it was with oak chips during the primary fermenation stage for about 2 weeks. It didn't really work. 

Now I am going to try oak spirals. I plan on adding 2 spirals to the 5/6 gallons. I was planning on leaving the spirals in the carboy for 6 weeks during the secondary fermentation stage, after racking once. Is this correct?

Thanks for any help,

JA


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## Wade E

Spirals and cubes are much better in bulk aging as they take longer to do the job. Not sure what you mean by the chips didnt work, they always work but each kit has a oak level and thinner kits have less oak as it would over power a thin wine. Also, kits dont usually have enough oak IMO as they dont want a customer to say it was too oaky so you should always taste it and see if your wine needs more.


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## scsjohn

*oak help*

I was using a Vino Italiano 4 Week Wine Kit, Cabernet Sauvignon. It was/is a pretty cheap kit. I tried using 3-4oz of chips in the wine during the primary and left it in for about 2 weeks. It started smelling "mildewy" or not fresh or something. I steamed the chips before using them. The kit was new. The chips seemed ok. It was my first try at leaving them in for longer than a day or 2. 

Anyhow, I think it was the chips that created the stink, but I don't know this for sure. I tried to follow the directions on the sheet. 

I spent more money on the Winexpert's California Trinity Red kit and purchased the spirals. I really like a wine that is oaky and I am hoping to get some tips on when to put the spirals in the wine. I assume it's during secondary in the carboy. I plan on leaving them in there for 6 weeks, even though (according to the sheet) I'm supposed to stabilize and clear after 10 days, or the specific gravity reaches 0.996. 

Does this sound ok?


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## tonyt

scsjohn said:


> I spent more money on the Winexpert's California Trinity Red kit and purchased the spirals. I really like a wine that is oaky and I am hoping to get some tips on when to put the spirals in the wine. I assume it's during secondary in the carboy. I plan on leaving them in there for 6 weeks, even though (according to the sheet) I'm supposed to stabilize and clear after 10 days, or the specific gravity reaches 0.996.
> 
> Does this sound ok?


I use spirals in bulk aging. That is after you rack off the sediment from clearing. Your instructions may say to bottle at that point but many of us rack to a clean and sanitized carboy for 3, 6, 9, or 12 additional months. That is when I add oak spirals. I start tasting the wine every week after the third week. I pull the oak spiral when the taste is just a tiny bit more oak than I want, the assumption being that the oak settles down a bit in time.

If you are not going to bulk age for a few months I would recommend oak cubes in secondary rather than spirals.


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## scsjohn

tonyt said:


> I use spirals in bulk aging. That is after you rack off the sediment from clearing. Your instructions may say to bottle at that point but many of us rack to a clean and sanitized carboy for 3, 6, 9, or 12 additional months. That is when I add oak spirals. I start tasting the wine every week after the third week. I pull the oak spiral when the taste is just a tiny bit more oak than I want, the assumption being that the oak settles down a bit in time.
> 
> If you are not going to bulk age for a few months I would recommend oak cubes in secondary rather than spirals.




Thanks, Tonyt! This is SUPER helpful. One last thing: does the wine level need to be topped off for the bulk aging? 

Thanks!


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## Wade E

Absolutely it needs to be topped off after youve degased it and sulfited it. When bulk aging youll also need to add more sulfite after 3 1/2 - 4 months. Youll want to add another 1/4 tsp per 6 gallons at that point and another 1/8 tsp every 4 months there after. These are just approx #'s and will do fine but S02 testing with a good tester is the best way to ensure everything is on the up and up.


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## tonyt

scsjohn said:


> does the wine level need to be topped offering for the bulk aging?
> 
> Thanks!


absolutely!


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## scsjohn

*Thank you!*

Just wanted to say thanks to all who responded. I feel ready to begin.

JA


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## sour_grapes

I am wondering about recycling neutral barrels into oak staves. I realize that, by definition, a neutral barrel has given up what it can to the wine already. However, what if you were to take the (large-scale) staves from that barrel, and cut them into, say, strips. Perhaps toast them to suit. Do you think there would now be extractable tannins within proximity of the new surfaces? Or do you reckon the original extraction penetrated pretty deep into the original stave?


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## brottman

My LHBS only had oak chips. Is there any ratio to compare a recipe that calls for cubes to the chips? Also - do you need to sanitize the cubes/chips at all before adding to wine?


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## PhilDarby

I got 2 X 3 1/2 litre, white oak barrels, brand new, imported from mexico 4 years ago, one was plain oak inside, the other was highly toasted oak, when I received them, I filled them both with water, to prevent shrinkage, as I had reduced my home brewing due to complications ie I decided to cut down on drinking at the time, as I had just lost my parents and split with my ex, I was therfore, going through a rough patch in my life and alcohol wasn't appropriate anymore, anyway long story short, I have begun brewing again, upon checking these barrels, I got a yield of 3 1/2 litres of oak flavoured water, due to evaporation etc, between the two barrels, the water had been stood for 4 years in brand new oak barrels, so, its probably fair to say that its a fairly accurate description of the results.

I`ve basically combined the 3 1/2 litres of oak water together, to produce a pale brown, whisky coloured liquid, with the results below.

Anyway, i made an apple/mango, 5 gallon brew recently and decided to add 500 mls of this water to the brew, in an attempt to try and age it, the results where totally outstanding, its added a caramelised coffee flavour that is almost indescribably nice.

The original brew was apple mango, with mango being the predominant flavour, for anyone who hasn't brewed this kind of drink, mango appears to have very complexed sugars which take a long time to break down hence, unless u ferment it for a very long time, it has a hint of sweetness.

Anyway, I was itching to sample this drink, so 4 days ago, I added sodium metabisulphate and some gelatine finings, to kill the yeast and preserve some sweetness.

Tonight ive racked it and added 500 mls of the oak water, also, ive been having a sly sampler of about 500 mls of the results. 

Well the taste is awesome, usually this ale tastes a bit similar to what you would expect a mango schnapps to taste like ie slightly thick and creamy with some sugars.

With the added oak water it has a hint of sweetness, some creamy taste and a very strong mid hit of caramelised coffee with an after taste of toasted oak.

Confirming the American oak flavouring above.

Oh just as an add, the wine was left for an hour before drinking just in case there was any nasties in the oak water, the wine was around 15% so i figured it would kill anything lurking in there, lets hope im right ;-)

One other thing, it has completely changed the flavour, if anything it is over oaked, so, now the oak is the predominating taste, but, I have to admit its a very nice flavour.


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