# Can I bottle my wine without potassium sorbate?



## agdodge4x4 (Dec 9, 2010)

My wine is still clearing in 1 gallon jugs and has a very very thin layer of sediment on the bottom. Should I rack it and keep letting it sit or rack it into bottles? Also, since its been finished fermenting for several weeks now, can I get away with two crushed campden tablets and bottling or do I HAVE to use potassium sorbate? Id rather not use it.


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## Sirs (Dec 9, 2010)

Myself I don't use campden tablets or sorbate in any of my wines but I normally have abit more alcohol than normal in mine. I'm sure some of the others that use all the chemicals will let you know before long. I say this just to let you know it can be done


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## cpfan (Dec 9, 2010)

IF fermentation is finished (got a specific gravity for reference?), AND you do not sweeten the wine, AND you sanitize the bottles properly, THEN you can omit the sorbate.

Steve


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## Tom (Dec 9, 2010)

I agree with Steve.
You should add however sulfite unless you plan on drinking fast.


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## buddy (Dec 9, 2010)

Sirs said:


> Myself I don't use campden tablets or sorbate in any of my wines but I normally have abit more alcohol than normal in mine. I'm sure some of the others that use all the chemicals will let you know before long. I say this just to let you know it can be done



Sirs, I found your comment very interesting. I was thinking of trying this myself. Could I ask, typically how long could your wine go age wise before it starts to decline?


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## Runningwolf (Dec 9, 2010)

Yes keep racking until your wine is totally clear and sediment free. I don't mean every few days but maybe every 2-3 weeks. I have a feeling you are anxious to bottle and drink. Campden tablets are used at the rate of one per gallon. As to what Steve was eluding to make sure you have the same sg reading three days in a row to ensure the fermentation is complete. If you are not going to sweeten your wine there is no need for sorbate.


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## Sirs (Dec 9, 2010)

buddy said:


> Sirs, I found your comment very interesting. I was thinking of trying this myself. Could I ask, typically how long could your wine go age wise before it starts to decline?



sent you a pm, I've never had wine make it past 5 years before it was gone but all have been good up to at least that old most never last past first year or so lol they get drank to quick


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## BobF (Dec 9, 2010)

Runningwolf said:


> Yes keep racking until your wine is totally clear and sediment free. I don't mean every few days but maybe every 2-3 weeks. I have a feeling you are anxious to bottle and drink. Campden tablets are used at the rate of one per gallon. As to what Steve was eluding to make sure you have the same sg reading three days in a row to ensure the fermentation is complete. If you are not going to sweeten your wine there is no need for sorbate.


 
If the wine is DRY, I agree. If there is any residual sugar, you always run the risk of fermentation picking up again later.


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## mmadmikes1 (Dec 9, 2010)

BobF said:


> If the wine is DRY, I agree. If there is any residual sugar, you always run the risk of fermentation picking up again later.


This is not entirely true. If like was stated you have a high enough alcohol level you will not start fermenting again because the yeast die. I make mead that way now and It always has residual sugars.


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## Dugger (Dec 9, 2010)

buddy said:


> Sirs, I found your comment very interesting. I was thinking of trying this myself. Could I ask, typically how long could your wine go age wise before it starts to decline?



At the LE tasting with Tim Vandergrift a while ago, he said something very interesting about how long to keep wines. He referred to Clark's law of aging which states that a wine will stay at it's peak for the same length of time it took to reach that peak and then slowly decline from there. In other words if a wine takes 2 years to peak it will hold that for another 2 years and then start to decline. I'm sure the "clark's law" bit was just a humorous take from Clark's laws of predictability, but the timelines are interesting. Has anyone ever heard of this before? I know that aging and holding are dependent on many factors and these guidelines would not be set in stone but it is an interesting statement he made.


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## BobF (Dec 10, 2010)

mmadmikes1 said:


> This is not entirely true. If like was stated you have a high enough alcohol level you will not start fermenting again because the yeast die. I make mead that way now and It always has residual sugars.


 
Yep, I thought of that when I posted, but it wasn't the OP that mentioned high alcohol. Of course 'high alcohol' depends on the specific yeast used.

If you have a yeast advertized as a 14% yeast and your abv is close to 14% AND you have residual sugar ... 

Me? I'd sorbate or sterile filter before bottling. I'm anal like that. I've never had a surprise and I want to keep it that way!


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## cpfan (Dec 10, 2010)

BobF said:


> If you have a yeast advertized as a 14% yeast and your abv is close to 14% AND you have residual sugar ...


We get regular posts from people who thought yeast max is 14%, the ferment will stop at 14%, and it keeps going to 18% (or whatever).

Not a reliable method of wine making.

Steve


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## BobF (Dec 10, 2010)

cpfan said:


> We get regular posts from people who thought yeast max is 14%, the ferment will stop at 14%, and it keeps going to 18% (or whatever).
> 
> Not a reliable method of wine making.
> 
> Steve


 
That's my point. Best to manage sugar levels and yeast choice to get a dry wine at the desired abv. Then use sorbate and backsweeten to taste.


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## cpfan (Dec 10, 2010)

BobF said:


> That's my point. Best to manage sugar levels and yeast choice to get a dry wine at the desired abv. Then use sorbate and backsweeten to taste.


Not necessary to manage yeast if sugar levels are right, unless the yeast is not expected to reach the desired level. If you're aiming for something resaonable (under 14%) and using most wine yeast, yeast choice is not a problem.

Steve


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## BobF (Dec 10, 2010)

cpfan said:


> Not necessary to manage yeast if sugar levels are right, unless the yeast is not expected to reach the desired level. If you're aiming for something resaonable (under 14%) and using most wine yeast, yeast choice is not a problem.
> 
> Steve


 
Steve - This will be my last comment. Feel free to have the last nit.

Yeast selection IS important as is the level of sugar. They work together. Bottom line is that if you have residual sugar, you risk a restart of fermentation unless you do *something* to prevent it.

This can be sorbate. It can be fortification well beyond the alcohol tolerance level of the yeast. It can be sterile filtering.

It is prudent to see how far the ferment went. If it is dry, it doesn't matter. If it is NOT dry, you should to do *something* to prevent referment before bottling.


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## deboard (Dec 10, 2010)

So, I'm curious as to what is the problem with using Potassium Sorbate (at least if you haven't done MLF)? Is it just that it is another chemical or is it something else? I'm not judging, I fully support everyone's right to make their wine however they please of course. 

But look around your cupboard and refrigerator at the labels and see how many of them have Potassium Sorbate in them. Quite a few in mine.


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## mmadmikes1 (Dec 10, 2010)

you don't sorbate when you MLF and it is fine. Guys I am never in a hurry to bottle and if a mead hasn't restarted in 1 year, it is not going to. Mead has been found in the Egyptian tombs thousand of years old and still good. I dont back sweeten grape wine so I don't use sorbate for that either, I do use K-Met. I do back sweeten fruit wines so they get sorbate and K-Met. Tried fruity rocket fuel and no one much liked it.There is more why than one to skin a horse and like many here I have learned a lot the hard way. Like many here also I have made hundreds of gallons of wines and like what I make. I am sure you like what you make as well. Every question deserves. answers from experience because if it works, it isn't wrong. Just as what you do works for you what I do works for me. We can give a person all possible answers and let them decide what they want to do.


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## Wade E (Dec 10, 2010)

It is just the fact of using a chemical to them. Some people like to be totally natural and I understand but you must be knowledgeable in this area as to amount of abv tolerance a wine yeast has. Most are around 14-16 abv and some around 18. The thing is Ive seen 18 make it to twenty and 16 make it to 18 so you really need to make sure your above a bit what it is rated for.


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## Wade E (Dec 10, 2010)

Also, higher abv' slike Sirs is talking about are their own preservative and keep bacteria at bay. The lower the abv the more it gets wiser to use sulfites.


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## Dugger (Dec 11, 2010)

There are also some who say that sorbate can add a sweetness to the wine; personally I have not tasted it but then my taste buds aren't as acute as they used to be.


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## Wade E (Dec 11, 2010)

Well I dont see a problem with that as if using it you would most likely be sweetening your wine anyway or there really is no need to use it anyway.


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## deboard (Dec 11, 2010)

I think the chemical name turns people off, most people equate chemical names with bad things it seems. (Except Alcohol, which has quite a good reputation)

My wife's mother would always say she would never use a chemical like Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) in her food. But she ran through bottles of something labeled "Good Taste" (from the asian store) like it was going out of style. Look at the ingredients - only one - MSG. 

Potassium Sorbate has a toxicity almost exactly the same as table salt. I think it needs a new name - "Wine Freshener" maybe? "Fizzy Wine Preventer"? "Broken bottle preventer"?


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## Dugger (Dec 11, 2010)

Yes, I totally agree, and that is why I normally don't use the sorbate that comes with kits ( I rarely sweeten, only when kits come with F-packs), but then I have been making kits for 15 years and feel very comfortable not using the sorbate. Just this year I started my first fruit wine ( blackberry) and since this process is new to me I definitely use sorbate and when I finally get around to fresh juice wines I will use it as well, until I feel comfortable enough with that process to not use it if I choose.
I guess my point is that until you are comfortable/confident with the whole process, then you should use the sorbate for ease of mind. 
However, if your wine is dry and you add sorbate there can be a perceived sweetness and this is what deboard wanted to know, I believe.
P.S. Another name for sorbate at some supply stores is "wine stabilizer" - perhaps this is more palatable!


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## deboard (Dec 11, 2010)

Would you put any of these in your wine?

Potassium Bitartrate
2-methoxy-3-isobutyl pyrazine
4-vinylguaiacol
4-vinylphenol
Terpenes

probably not if they were in a bottle. But all of these are part of the chemical composition of a wine grape. Grapes also contain dihydrogen monoxide!


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## mmadmikes1 (Dec 12, 2010)

I have no problem with chemicals, just don't add anything I don't need. Original question was "can i bottle without Potassium Sorbate" answer is if you do it right, yes


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## agdodge4x4 (Dec 13, 2010)

I thought potassium sorbate was not something you wanted to add to a wine that is going to be aged for more than a year.

Is this not true?


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## xoltri (Dec 13, 2010)

agdodge4x4 said:


> I thought potassium sorbate was not something you wanted to add to a wine that is going to be aged for more than a year.
> 
> Is this not true?



Potassium sorbate just prevents yeast cells from reproducing. If they can't reproduce, even if there are a few live yeast cells in a sugary wine, there won't be enough to cause a re-fermentation. Aging has nothing to do with it.


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## Wade E (Dec 13, 2010)

I have wines that are now 6 years old with sorbate and they are fine. Some have lost their peak due to being lighter fruit wines but thats nothing to do with sorbate.


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## agdodge4x4 (Dec 14, 2010)

Thats what I needed to know. I read in some of my books that it can impart a 'taste' after some time. It was the Berry book...or Garey..can't recall. So, thats why I was asking.

Thanks for the info.


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## agdodge4x4 (Dec 29, 2010)

OK...I have racked my wine, and its still at the same SG it was months ago. There was only a small layer of sediment, but I did not add campden this time since I did it last time. I topped up to close to the stopper, and its fitted with an air lock...just sitting there.

Now, how do I handle stabilizing it now? Before I bottle it, I will put in one crushed campden tablet...or two according to some books, and I will add the k-sorbate at 1/2 tsp per gallon. Now do I need to rack this wine into a carboy of dissolved sorbate and campden and let it sit for a few days before it goes into the bottle or what? In other words, will I need to rack again or just dissolve it and send it to the bottle?


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## Tom (Dec 29, 2010)

OK now depending on when you added the meta you may NOT need to add any more.
When you stabilized with the tabs it is good for 3 months. So, if you did that less than 3 months ago you are set.
Now for the sorbate. 
What kind of wine is this?
When did you make it?
do you plan on sweetening or add a f-pac?
You may not need to add sorbate depending on your answer.


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## agdodge4x4 (Dec 30, 2010)

There is one gallon of red and one gallon of white wine.

Not sure when the wine was started...its in my notes at home. Neither is crystal clear yet, but Im not sure if it will clear or if I should let it clear in a bottle or what. I think it was started in October.


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## cpfan (Dec 30, 2010)

agdodge4x4 said:


> There is one gallon of red and one gallon of white wine.
> 
> Not sure when the wine was started...its in my notes at home. Neither is crystal clear yet, but Im not sure if it will clear or if I should let it clear in a bottle or what. I think it was started in October.


Most of us feel that clearing in the bottle is a bad idea. You will likely end up with sediment which most people don't like.

Steve


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## agdodge4x4 (Dec 30, 2010)

So how long does it take for it to clear? 4 months? six months? I mean, you can see through it, its just not like white wine in a bottle that is crystal clear.


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## Renee212 (Oct 25, 2016)

*Sorbate and Wine Conditioner*



Runningwolf said:


> Yes keep racking until your wine is totally clear and sediment free. I don't mean every few days but maybe every 2-3 weeks. I have a feeling you are anxious to bottle and drink. Campden tablets are used at the rate of one per gallon. As to what Steve was eluding to make sure you have the same sg reading three days in a row to ensure the fermentation is complete. If you are not going to sweeten your wine there is no need for sorbate.



recently made 5 gallon of Blackberry Wine with VINTNER's Best ready Juice- 
followed directions on the jug which also called to add sorbate- I finished it with Wine Conditioner (sugar syrup) and did not realize it already had sorbate in it- needless to say, as now I have wine with a double portion of Sorbate- I messed up, drinking 2 glasses of very nice tasting & smelling wine, I paid for it a few hours later with extreme Di......a- apparently very sensitive to the chemical- will be making another batch, and perhaps mixing the 1 st with the 2nd?? or will the sorbate eventually lessen or die off after 6 month or so? I will probably need to use the conditioner again, but not any more sorbate- bad experience- sugg
estion?


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## Arne (Oct 26, 2016)

Renee212 said:


> recently made 5 gallon of Blackberry Wine with VINTNER's Best ready Juice-
> followed directions on the jug which also called to add sorbate- I finished it with Wine Conditioner (sugar syrup) and did not realize it already had sorbate in it- needless to say, as now I have wine with a double portion of Sorbate- I messed up, drinking 2 glasses of very nice tasting & smelling wine, I paid for it a few hours later with extreme Di......a- apparently very sensitive to the chemical- will be making another batch, and perhaps mixing the 1 st with the 2nd?? or will the sorbate eventually lessen or die off after 6 month or so? I will probably need to use the conditioner again, but not any more sorbate- bad experience- sugg
> estion?



First off, welcome to the forum. I don't believe I have heard of anybody having your problem with the sorbate. I do know it looses its ability to keep the wine from refermenting if it gets old, so maybe it will go away with time. The sorbate is used in combination with sulfites (campden tabs or k-meta powder) to keep the sugars you sweeten back with from refermenting. If you let your wines ferment dry and you do not sweeten, you do not need the sorbate. Otherwise there are some nonfermentables that you can use to sweeten that you do not need the sorbate. Good luck with it, Arne.


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