# Where to cut? Please look.



## Alex856 (Mar 9, 2014)

Hello, I need some advice on where to prune. 

This a Vanessa hybrid, last year was the first crop, so I think 2014 will be the 5th or 6th summer here in Southern New England.







My biggest issue is where to prune C. Would leaving both C1 and C2 be possibility, since they aren't close to the head, or depending on the balance needed for the plant? Or would I prune C vine to one cane?

Should I leave a renewal spur on A, even though it would be above the B cane? 

It seems I am 'cane' pruning, does this mean renewal spurs aren't needed, or is it possible to do both.

Any general or specific advice, much appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## grapeman (Mar 9, 2014)

What type of training system are you going for? The vine looks like it has just been growing all over with no ryhyme or reason to it. You need to decide on some sort of system and then train the vine and prune for that system.


----------



## Alex856 (Mar 9, 2014)

Well, compared to some other things I've seen I wouldn't say this looks like an unruly mess. So far it's generally been trained towards a conventional Y umbrella system, as indicated in the guide for the vine, which came from a reputable grower- Stark Bros. I believe. But it's a simple guide. Also, it does appear I'm headed towards cane pruning as opposed to spur pruning. 

So does anyone else here have a more helpful answer?


----------



## dralarms (Mar 9, 2014)

Ouch,

Grapeman is one of the most knowledgeable people here. His question is valid, what are you shooting for?


----------



## grapeman (Mar 9, 2014)

I think you are confusing my response as being unhelpful. I did not say it was an unruly mess. I asked what training system you are shooting for and now you have answered. An Umbrella Kniffen is not a common type of training , but it will work and you can easily train the vine to follow that for this year. I don't see any wires there to tie the canes to. Normally for Umbrella Kniffen you use either two or three wires, either at 4 and 6 feet or 2,4 and 6 feet. Keep both canes growing on A and bring them up over the top wire and bring back down to the 4 foot wire. If it is much longer than that, cut if off a ways below the 4 foot wire. Keep two of the canes on the other side bringing them away from the center and back down, just like the other side. Try and turn them outward and down. You can keep the B cane to fill in the center and that will form some renewal canes for next year. Trim out most of the rest of what doesn't form the structure.

If you don't want my advice fine, I will refrain from helping you in the future. I might suggest not snapping off the hand you are asking to feed you. If you think I am being unfriendly you should be trained by someone I was.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Mar 9, 2014)

Alex856,
Wow, That is one hell of a way to make a first impression here at WMT. Not a good start here for sure, try a few other forums and see what kind of replies you get. I for one would not help you anymore If I were Grapeman.


----------



## blumentopferde (Mar 9, 2014)

You better don't mess with grapeman, he's the brain and the backbone of this forum 

You might also turn this into a common VSP-System by cutting everything off besides B.
Leave the small shoot above B as renewal spur (just in case) and cut C entirely off after the bend close to the the stem.

But beware, I'm also new to this and might miss something!

I can see from the picture that there is some kind of wiring, but for me it is still not clear what kind of training system you're aiming for.

Is it the Y-umbrella-system you're aiming for? If yes, do you mean something like that:

*___***___*
**/**\/**\**
*****|*****
*****|*****


Then I'd rather leave the uppermost canes on both arms instead of the lowermost cane...


----------



## Alex856 (Mar 9, 2014)

Oh come on, I have high standards too, and I wasn't sure what to expect from a wine making forum. But my response was not to cause any vitriol, it was more to get some juices flowing . 

Unfortunately, I already cut off cane A, since the book I have, the old "Pruning Guide" and some other things I've read, indicate just two fruiting canes, not four.

I was just guessing on the umbrella, so maybe it was the Y system. I'm sure you guys are light years ahead of that old book by now, so... ..blumentopf -love Austria, spent a few summers in Lainnach, Kaernten as a child..however.... I thought the canes lower to the trunk are the ones to keep, in general...so now I'm confused.

Grapeman, if you'd like to accept my apology and help me out just a bit more on cane C and B, minus cane A, I'd greatly appreciate it.


----------



## grapeman (Mar 9, 2014)

Generally when you use the Umbrella Kniffen, you will train the trunk up to almost the top wire where it is headed. That sends out shoots that are then selected to either be used for that year's canes or shortened up to grow replacment shoots for the following year. If the vigor is low (as yours appears to be) you may select two canes to grow. Again, arch them over the wire and tie down to the one below. By using only two canes, it will help envigorate those two shoots and also the vine somewhat. If the vine becomes very vigorous, then next year select three of four canes. This increases the load on the vine (more grapes) which will reduce the vigor of those shoots. Play around with it until you get a feel for keeping the vine in balance.

How high is the vine now at the Y? I can't tell in the picture. I prefer to have the canes grow outward from the center, not cross it like in yours. As the new shoots form from the buds and thus the grape clusters, it can become overgrown in the center when they arch across each other. Since you already cut A I would leave B, C1 and probably C3 - trying to turn them outward. By leaving two of the C canes, if one breaks you will have the other. There is no true right and wrong way and you can adapt as the vine grows and you get a better understanding of what is going on.

Try doing a Google search for Umbrella Kniffen and you will get a few more sources.


----------



## blumentopferde (Mar 9, 2014)

Just for better understanding:

There are 2 ways (amongst a hundred others  ) to grow vines:

Upwards and downwards. Here in Europe we only grow them upwards. That is because we almost exclusively grow viniferas and those tend to grow straight upwards. 
If you want to grow your vine upwards you better leave the lowermost canes, otherwise your canopy will become so high that you'll need a ladder to work on it 

American grape varieties grow more "relaxed". They will hang down if you let them. Since this is an American variety, you can also let it grow downwards. In that case I'd leave the shoots as high as possible but still at a height you can comfortably reach with your hands (about the height of your head).


----------



## Alex856 (Mar 10, 2014)

Thanks a bunch. The only other plant I have is a Niagara which I decided to train on a four cane Kniffen system, which was clearer to learn than what I am doing with this Vanessa. The trouble is there is so much information out there now, which takes several years to figure out, and many more to master, but a decision needs to be made now. 

So your info on vines crossing in the center, and direction of growth, is very helpful. The Y is only about three feet from the ground, based on directions for the growers guide for the plant. 

It looks like you've got a sparkling operation up there in NY, I'm sure lots of people benefit from your help. Hopefully the season will be robust; I hear a big El Nino might be kicking in. Thank you again for your assistance.


----------



## blumentopferde (Mar 10, 2014)

3 feet would be low enough for a Vertical Shoot Positioning / Guyot - System.

You might keep B as a single fruiting cane and bend it to a wire that is slightly higher, or to two wires, at a distance of about 10 inch.
You could keep the small renewal spur, if you didn't cut it off yet.

Or you turn it into a hanging system and keep C3 and everything above it to establish the right arm of the umbrella and also keep B so you can build up the left arm. For that you'll need a wire slightly above C3 and another wire a bit deeper to keep the canes in place. You might also need to support the stems in some way.


That's my take on it, I hope that I'm not missing something!


----------



## blumentopferde (Mar 10, 2014)

This is an illustration to the description above:


----------



## Alex856 (Mar 10, 2014)

Thank you, I look forward to checking this out in detail. Please eat lots of schnitzel and wurst for me..


----------

