# Correcting 'flowers' in wine



## Jal5 (Jan 7, 2021)

I had a red wine bulk aging last winter in a 5 gallon carboy that was correctly fitted with bung and airlock that developed the flowers in wine problem- some kind of stuff floating up to the top of the neck of the bottle. I researched it here and elsewhere and determined it to be mycoderma. I treated it by screening it through multiple layers of cheesecloth and adding a heavy dose- 1/4 tsp of Kmeta and immediately bottling it. I have tasted it since then and it is just a meh kind of merlot, nothing great, it has a taste of the kmeta still I think and if I take the time to decant it when serving it is better but still meh.

I know have two 5 gallon bottles of red wine bulk aging that have the same problem- one from last spring juice and one from last fall juice. Picture is attached. sorry for the bad cellphone pic.


Is there any other remedy and why am I getting this again? I am pretty stringent about cleanliness of all items used in making wine and it is correctly sealed to keep out air while aging. I am not sure what is really causing the problem. thanks. 
Joe


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## salcoco (Jan 7, 2021)

the normal causes which you seem to have addressed are sanitation, air leaks , ph and k-meta dosage. if the ph is high might need heavier dosage of k-meta. I would rack and do a double dose of k-meta for the wine you say have problems.


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## Jal5 (Jan 7, 2021)

I need to take a pH reading and will post those results. Thx. Joe


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## Jal5 (Jan 10, 2021)

pH tester is on the way, but I decided to not fool around with this and racked and added Kmeta 1/2 tsp to both the 6 gal carboy and the 5 gal carboy. strange that I have a 1 gal jug of the same wine that is in the 5 gal carboy and no signs of anything on the top of the bottle neck. Maybe I am just seeing binder ingredients from the campdens that I crushed last racking, where as this time I added powdered kmeta and mixed it in well? I will keep an eye on it closely over the next several weeks. both taste and smell good, just need more aging time. the question will be whether I bottle early or let them stay in carboy.

Joe


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## NCWC (Jan 11, 2021)

get a spray bottle of 70proof vodka or do a 70/30 everclear and water
spray in the bottle, couple squirts it will most likely go away


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2021)

Hey @Jal5, are you sure it’s mycoderma? 
I’ve had mycoderma, but also surface crud I mistook for mycoderma at times. 
The instance i did indeed have legitimate flowers of wine— it was unmistakable. The surface growth looked like tiny little rice kernels close up almost. The wine took on a brownish tint. and the smell and taste was so bitter. There was no question what it was. It sat with a ton of headspace with no sulphites for an extended period of time. 

But i also had some fake-outs too. In carboys, topped up and properly sulphited. Yet the surfaces developed some sort of growth it seemed. Smelled good. Tasted good. But still surface crud. It wasn’t mycoderma fortunately. I can’t explain what it was exactly, and it still happens every so often. It’s almost as if lees from the bottom goes into suspension and collected on the surface. I’m sure there’s a scientific reason for the cause. i just don’t know it. 
Now when i see it i will use a rolled up paper towel to skim the top, wipe the rim clean, and give the carboy a confident spritz of kmeta sanitizer directly into the neck and plug ‘er back up.


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## David Violante (Jan 12, 2021)

I’ve had the same experience as AJ, and the folks here related that it could be excess proteins and non-dissolvable items floating up. I’ve done the same thing, wiped it away, made sure I had enough sulfite, sprayed with kmeta and said a little prayer.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 12, 2021)

David Violante said:


> I’ve had the same experience as AJ, and the folks here related that it could be excess proteins and non-dissolvable items floating up. I’ve done the same thing, wiped it away, made sure I had enough sulfite, sprayed with kmeta and said a little prayer.



Interesting. I still haven’t figured out what causes it. But i am positive it’s not mycoderma. Tho i cant determine if @Jal5 has the same thing going on from the blurry pic——but it certainly sounds like it. 
Some of my wines get it. Some don’t. In both high ph & low ph. Always properly sulphited. Fully topped up. Smell unaffected. Taste unaffected. Who knows. 
My gut tells me it stems from room conditions. Temps, pressure, humidity etc. 
The first time i dealt with it i also feared mycoderma since it would return soon after removing. I racked, dosed high so2, bottled and monitored. Never got worse or developed more growth. Aged nicely actually. 

@Jal5 This thread below is when i 1st experienced the issue. Maybe you’ll find something useful in it.
*spoiler alert*- it has a happy ending.






Lees rising to top??


I’ve got a batch at about 10 months. It’s topped up and properly sulfited. Haven’t been checking up on it lately and yesterday I noticed some surface growth. Wine smells great, tastes great. When taking a sample with a pipette the pink creamy substance coated the pipette. The wine directly...




www.winemakingtalk.com


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## David Violante (Jan 12, 2021)

I’m curious, mine occurred in all the carboys where I used nutrients and bentonite. I’m *not* saying there’s a correlation, more so asking if that could be a contributing factor? Also, only in the ones that are from grapes. My mead and cranberry don’t have it. No bad smells or tastes either. Here’s a few other pictures. This was when I was tasting and before cleaning and adding to top off...


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## Ajmassa (Jan 12, 2021)

David Violante said:


> I’m curious, mine occurred in all the carboys where I used nutrients and bentonite. I’m *not* saying there’s a correlation, more so asking if that could be a contributing factor? Also, only in the ones that are from grapes. My mead and cranberry don’t have it. No bad smells or tastes either. Here’s a few other pictures. This was when I was tasting and before cleaning and adding to top off...
> 
> View attachment 70425
> View attachment 70426
> View attachment 70427


Yep same stuff, although those pics are a bit more extreme. As temps drop and levels falls that mess stays stuck to the sides. I feel your pain. i hate it. But seems harmless as far as i can tell. I used to think i was the only one dealing with it. 

And yes, always wine from red grapes. As far as other common denominators it’s a guessing game. i don’t use bentonite ever. I always use nutrients during fermentation. I’ve found no correlation to the wines that get it to the ones that don’t. In the thread i linked in my last post there’s a couple pics. 

Right now i’ve got 15+ carboys & demi’s filled and fortunately they’ve all got clean surfaces. That’s rare though. usually there’s at least one or 2. i racked and sulphited most of it a month ago.


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## David Violante (Jan 14, 2021)

AJ do you use KMeta tabs or powder? I am using tabs at the moment (using up what I bought in bulk) and am switching to powder. Not sure how I thought taking a powder, turning it into a tablet, to crush it back into a powder, was super helpful. I’m going to call it an experience builder. I’m wondering if, as someone here suggested, it’s partly a binding agent? I’m going to take a sample and see what i can find with a microscope.


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## David Violante (Jan 14, 2021)

@Jal5 I feel like we’ve sidetracked your OP a little, is the conversation helpful? Has your condition returned / how’s it going?


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## Jal5 (Jan 26, 2021)

Thx guys for those pictures. Mine looks similar but not as much film as David’s. The two 5 g carboys are fine so far no sign of the film. The 1 g just developed some film. I will treat with powdered kmeta today. No white wines ever develop it only the reds.


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## Jal5 (Jan 26, 2021)

Maybe these pics will help?


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## Jal5 (Jan 26, 2021)

AJ read your thread. Hope mine has a similar happy result!


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## Jal5 (Jan 27, 2021)

Took pH today 1/2 g can sauv 3.52
Some film at neck of bottle. Siphoned into two 750 bottles added kmeta and corked. Will see how this goes now. Smell and taste is good.
here is the neck with film pic.
joe


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## Ajmassa (Jan 27, 2021)

David Violante said:


> AJ do you use KMeta tabs or powder? I am using tabs at the moment (using up what I bought in bulk) and am switching to powder. Not sure how I thought taking a powder, turning it into a tablet, to crush it back into a powder, was super helpful. I’m going to call it an experience builder. I’m wondering if, as someone here suggested, it’s partly a binding agent? I’m going to take a sample and see what i can find with a microscope.


Both. sorta. carboys i use powder. demis and barrel i use the indose granules (not the tabs). Haven’t noticed any correlation though. 



Jal5 said:


> Took pH today 1/2 g can sauv 3.52
> Some film at neck of bottle. Siphoned into two 750 bottles added kmeta and corked. Will see how this goes now. Smell and taste is good.
> here is the neck with film pic.
> joeView attachment 70887


It does sound and look like the same thing. But either way you are handling properly. Confident all will be fine in the end.


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## David Violante (Feb 13, 2021)

Follow up on the microscopy~ below are a bunch of pics from two different carboys that has the floating material on the top. The furthest pictures are 100x, then 400x, then 1000x. It looks like yeast with some budding, and there are some pics with bentonite crystals. *UCDavis* has a great site for microscopy of wine~ I hope these come out ok, I used an iPhone against the lens. I’m still working on what they actually are... the wine smells and tastes great still...


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## David Violante (Feb 17, 2021)

Follow up to the follow up: 

I emailed with a very helpful microbiologist from UC Davis who related that the condition was a biofilm consistent with Candida and that it would be difficult to figure out anything more specifically unless we did DNA testing. There are other types of biofilms also, including mycoderma (flowers of wine). 

There are about six types of Candida on their website, and this one looks the most like _Candida stellata_. Their site has some interesting information about its involvement in/with wine. He suggested maintaining proper headspace, SO2 management, and cellular temperature below 12C (53.6F). He also sent a link to Purdue's website about biofilms: _Treatment of Film Yeasts_. 

There are still no changes in taste, color, smell, etc... This looks like the perfect time to pitch the idea "we need a wine cellar with a partition for a cold storage fruit cellar for all the things from our garden" to my wife...


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## stickman (Feb 17, 2021)

@David Violante I usually build first and then answer questions when the yelling starts; this method has worked for 32yrs of marriage so far.


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## Daboyleroy (Mar 2, 2021)

stickman said:


> @David Violante I usually build first and then answer questions when the yelling starts; this method has worked for 32yrs of marriage so far.


In June it will be 54 “marvelous “ years TO THE SAME WOMAN
same method
easier for forgiveness than..... permission


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## Jal5 (Apr 3, 2021)

Update- glad to report that no more film in any of the bottles or bulk aging carboys. We were away for two months so I was a little bit worried what I would find when we got home. It will age a little longer before bottling since we don’t need the carboys right now.

next month on to spring grapes!
Joe


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## hounddawg (May 15, 2021)

hum, i found this thread, i have 24 gallons finished apple wine, was fermented all together, then racked into 4#-6 gallon carboys, they are 1 year bulked and getting ready to back sweeten and bottle, I've made country wines longer then I have been on here, about a month ago I went in to check airlocks and 1 has flowers, they were all made together, bunged the same time racked same time, even the k-meta solution was from the same at the same time, yet, I am trying to find out why and what to do about, I have never had wine flowers before, this is after i drew out some samples then i refilled it, so only the neck was and is the airspace, i lowered the level for better pictures,, any ideals, i wish to never have a repeat, ideals needed and wanted,,,
Dawg
Dawg
for


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## winemaker81 (May 15, 2021)

David Violante said:


> I’m curious, mine occurred in all the carboys where I used nutrients and bentonite. I’m *not* saying there’s a correlation, more so asking if that could be a contributing factor? Also, only in the ones that are from grapes. My mead and cranberry don’t have it. No bad smells or tastes either. Here’s a few other pictures. This was when I was tasting and before cleaning and adding to top off...


That looks like grape solids. I've had stuff like that adhere to the top of the carboy numerous times, typically early in the process. I simply racked the wine, cleaned the carboy well, and refilled. I can't recall having off-tastes or smells when it occurred, so I assumed it was light stuff that floated instead of sinking.

@hounddawg, what does the wine smell and taste like?


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## hounddawg (May 15, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> That looks like grape solids. I've had stuff like that adhere to the top of the carboy numerous times, typically early in the process. I simply racked the wine, cleaned the carboy well, and refilled. I can't recall having off-tastes or smells when it occurred, so I assumed it was light stuff that floated instead of sinking.
> 
> @hounddawg, what does the wine smell and taste like?


it smells like apple, but taste of alcohol, since it has not been back sweetened yet
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (May 15, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> it smells like apple, but taste of alcohol, since it has not been back sweetened yet


I'd clear out the solids and proceed. Unless the wine tastes bad, IMO you're fine.


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## hounddawg (May 15, 2021)

funny, you do something for years, one thing goes awry and you're a baby duck in a new pond, 
Thank Yawl so Very Much
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (May 16, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> funny, you do something for years, one thing goes awry and you're a baby duck in a new pond,


I know exactly how you feel -- my H2S episode last fall was the first time I personally encountered it.

I practiced Soo Bahk Do, a Korean martial art, for quite a few years. The art has no black belt -- in Soo Bahk Do, the belt is midnight blue, which symbolizes that everyone will always have more to learn, and will never fully master everything there is to know. This certainly applies to winemaking!


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## Jal5 (May 17, 2021)

I would clean that stuff off, spray some kmeta in there and proceed. As long as it tastes and smells good I don't think it is flowers. I had it when I used crushed campden tabs during the last processing the fermentation. This current 6 g I am making uses only the kmeta powder so I will report if there is a difference or not in the future.


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## hounddawg (May 17, 2021)

I've used k-meta powder from the start,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (May 17, 2021)

hum must be slipping went to ask a question but went blank by the time i got this post pulled up, and no i have not been sampling,,, lol
Dawg


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## Jal5 (Jul 25, 2021)

Further update. So the stuff came back in the5 g carboy. I have doused it with kmeta twice and filtered it the second time I added kmeta. Frustrated. 
any other ideas?
Joe


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 25, 2021)

* layer grain alcohol gently on the surface
* drop the pH below 3.0
* remove oxygen as with a head space eliminator or argon
* you must have some residual sugar , remove sugar with 1118
* keep free sulphite high/ above spec till you are close to bottling



Jal5 said:


> Further update. So the stuff came back in the5 g carboy. I have doused it with kmeta twice and filtered it the second time I added kmeta. Frustrated.
> any other ideas?
> Joe


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## Jal5 (Jul 26, 2021)

I never added grain alcohol how do I ado it and what does it accomplish?


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## Jal5 (Jul 26, 2021)

I will take a pH reading and SG today


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 26, 2021)

alcohol at 18% is toxic to all microbes. 
For me the key is to add fairly slow, ,, at the surface line where the infection was to minimize mixing, using a syringe/ pipette. It will mix fairly fast but I may have a few minutes where the local concentration is over 18%.


Jal5 said:


> I never added grain alcohol how do I add it and what does it accomplish?


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## hounddawg (Aug 1, 2021)

ok now i have the one i sent pictures of, and another i found today, ok these were from scratch, 4#-6 gal carboys, i have 2 with no problem, just straight apple,,,, but the 2 apples with the white film , both has cinnamon and all spice, I've got 20 or so carboys 6 gal or larger, all over from 14 to 18 months,, and not a thing on any other of the rest, just 2 of 4 of apple carboys, the two straight apple are just fine, but the only difference i can think of,, is the two with white film have allspice and cinnamon 
Dawg


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## G259 (Aug 1, 2021)

Infection from the spice jars? I like the Kmeta, and (new to me) grain alcohol solutions above, that's interesting.


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## Raptor99 (Aug 1, 2021)

I have wondered about the danger of infection when adding spices to secondary. What I have done is saturate the spices for 10 minutes in a tiny amount of K-meta in a small cup covered with plastic wrap to sanitize the spices before adding them to the carboy. I'm not sure that this is adequate, but it is what I am trying.


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## hounddawg (Aug 1, 2021)

Raptor99 said:


> I have wondered about the danger of infection when adding spices to secondary. What I have done is saturate the spices for 10 minutes in a tiny amount of K-meta in a small cup covered with plastic wrap to sanitize the spices before adding them to the carboy. I'm not sure that this is adequate, but it is what I am trying.


sounds good to me, i have been planning to not use spices anymore, these were my first in a non-mead wine, there's a couple on here and if they chime in, we'll both know for sure, but that dose make since ,,,
Dawg


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