# Primary/Secondary Fermentation (How Long)



## mcthomas (Mar 18, 2013)

I have started my first 6 gallons of wine. All in individual 1 gallon batches.
4 Blueberry. Two batches the same, different yeast, Two batches the same with Peptic Enzyme, Acid Blend, Yeast Nutrient, and different yeast.
Using the Premier Cuvee and regular Bread Yeast.

I like a sweet wine, without the wine after taste common with most store bought bottles..
I figured I would try my luck at brewing, after a bunch of reading...
I also put on some Banana and Raisin and Orange and Raisin...

Two batches of Blueberry should finish Dry, and two should finish sweet or semi sweet. Two batches with 4-1/2 cups sugar, two batches with 6 cups sugar. 

The Bread yeast definitely appears to brew quicker..
The Wine yeast has more of an Alcohol taste..
The Bread yeast has slowed down in the last day, the Wine yeast seems to be about 2 days behind the bread yeast as far as slowing bubbling in the primary. 

As far as the Flavor, the Bread Yeast and 6 cups of sugar (3 tasters), is the best, hands down. Good flavor, and no aftertaste. 

The two brews with 4-1/2 Cups Sugar, Peptic Enzyme, Yeast Nutrient, and Acid Blend have the twang after taste I was looking to avoid..
It seems to be betting worse as the wine continues to ferment..

It's been about 8 days at about 80 degrees must, stirred every day, once per day.. Everything looks fine. No extra growth, etc.. Sanitized properly..

The Banana and then the Orange is developing this same flavor.. Seems to be related to the additives.. The must tasted absolutely fantastic when I first made it up.. Seemed like they would be the best batch.. Now,, getting that bitter twang after taste also. They were put on one day later than the blueberry...

My question..
It seems like, the initial fermentation is converting the sugar into CO2 and alcohol correctly. The two blueberries are almost stopped bubbling.. Very slow. They don't have much sugar taste at all..
Once the sugar is converted over to Alcohol,,,, it seems that the brewing is going to stop.. 
Seems like it would run out of sugar, or the alcohol content will kill the yeast. 

Maybe not the latter with a dry wine,,, but, more like the running out of Sugar.. 
When this is racked to the secondary,, just what is really going on in the Secondary,, if the Sugar is gone,, or the Alcohol content has killed the yeast. At this point,, isn't the wine aging, and should it not start to clear?
The Blueberry wine is pretty clear to begin with.. Made with Frozen blueberries. 

The orange (made with frozen concentrate), and the banana made with banana and peels, and both made with raisins are going to take a wile to clear...

Could a guy,, add a Campden tablet and Potassium Sorbate,, stop the fermenation and start clearing when the wine has the taste he is looking for?
And,, if he wanted it a bit sweeter, couldn't he then add the sugar to get the sweetness he wanted?

If that would work,, then,, how would you gauge the Alcohol content of the wine, if you had the Specific Gravity of the Must after adding the Sugar, and at this point, that you finished fermentation, or stopped fermentation..

I plan on running these same batches again,, after I decide which yeast I am going to pick.. Surely leaning towards the bread yeast right now...
And running one batch with only Peptic enzyme, one only with Acid Blend, one only with Yeast Nutrient, and one with nothing but the yeast, to see if I can nail down where this typical wine tang and after taste is coming from.

To be honest, I am surprised that I prefer the bread yeast as the "Best" of the batches.. But,, my Mom has been brewing for years, and her best recipe is 4 of the Welches frozen grape juices, 3 cups of wine and the Bread Yeast put into warm water, the poured directly into the carboy to make 5 gallons.. I have never seen anyone that did not gloat over this recipe. And, she knows nothing about clearing, Peptic Enz, Acid Blends, etc..
In fact,, I am testing some of her Semi Sweet Grape wine as I type this..

I am trying all sorts of tests,, and laughing,, that her wine is better than mine.. Ha..Ha.. 

Anybody care to toss in some knowledge, comments, etc...
Anything is appreciated....

I will be moving all of my blueberry over today to 1 gallon jugs for the Secondary,, and making a false wine with the left over musts,, after adding about two cans of Welches White Grape Concentrate to the must, and about 5 cups of sugar..

I would really like to start the Orange and Banana again... Holy Smokes that was good stuff before it got 4 or 5 days old in the Primary... Alcohol or not,, I would like to sip that stuff on the porch.. Man,, that was great...
Too bad it took that twang taste... 

One more comment.. Over the last couple of weeks,, I have tasted probably 70 bottles of wine.. I picked two from the Biltmore in Asheville, NC that I considered Ok... And I picked 4 bottles from the Pigeon Forge/Gattlinburg Wine tasting tour.. It amazed me, how many of their wines had this twang taste also,, and the smell that over powered the clean fruit smell of the wine.
I hope someone else out there knows what I am trying to say about the twang... Ha..Ha.. 

Long post,, but,, I type really fast.. and think too much about this.


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## MNwino (Mar 18, 2013)

When I seen you where using bread yeast I stopped reading. When it stops fermenting I would just sweeten and drink it. It may never clear because of the bread yeast. Sounds like you prefer hootch to wine. Nothing wrong with that. Its all what you like afterall. No reason to really age any of it then.


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## DoctorCAD (Mar 18, 2013)

None of the "wines" you are making will finish sweet. Yeast eats all of the sugar and converts it to alcohol. If you want sweet, you need to do what we call back sweetening. You basically stabilize the wine and add the sugar back to it.

And...and this is the hardest thing to do...don't touch it for 6 months.

Oh, and bread yeast is for bread...not wine.


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## Arne (Mar 18, 2013)

I believe I have had some experience with the twang you are talking about. My wife complains about it. She will say this wine has it and the next one doesn't. Personally I have no idea what she is talking about, but if I could figure out what it is would try and make the wines without it. We drink very little storebought wines and she drinks very little all the time, so she has never colmplained about the store bought ones. If you figure out what it is, let me know and we can see if we can get rid of the taste. Arne.


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## jswordy (Mar 18, 2013)

mcthomas, I'll answer you straight up from the old-time ways on making a flavorful sweet wine that finishes sweet with no need for adding sugar. Use these rough guidelines:

When you start, add 8-10 pounds of fruit for every gallon of water added. Then, for every pound of fruit you use, add one pound of sugar. Then, select a wine yeast that finishes early (under 16% ABV max tolerance). Or use a bread yeast, which will not tolerate high alcohol levels.

What you are doing is killing the yeast by alcohol poisoning before all the sugars have been used up, resulting in residual sweetness. Many people do not like wines this sweet, or consider them "beneath them," or the sign of "an undeveloped palette," but a good sweet wine is a fine thing.

If you have a hydrometer, you can keep track of all this with the specific gravity readings on it. Record your starting and ending SG's. Keep the records until you adjust to the point where you get the right sweetness you desire. Then work with those readings on that wine. But a hydrometer is not necessary to making a residually sweet wine, just good record-keeping about amounts of fruit, sugar and water used, and yeast type.

You will not need to "stop fermentation" to get sweet wine cuz you have added so much sugar the yeast will drown in their own alcohol pee and the wine will still be sweet.

Now, when your primary bucket stops "working" (usually 5-7 days) and you see no more active bubbling in the still liquid, then you transfer to a carboy for secondary or what the old timers called "settling." Use an airlock, and leave enough room at the top of the carboy for it to gas out. Usually filling it to the upper "shoulder" will work and allow for 4-6" of space.

Notice I have said nothing about acid blend. Pectic enzyme does NOT alter the flavor of wine. But acid will. It can lend a metallic-like taste if used too much. So wait on adding acid blend until after you are all done fermenting and are about to bottle. Then bench test and adjust acid if needed. Be VERY cautious. It is easy to go too far with acids, and when it is done, it is done.

But the old timers just used a squirt of lemon juice to give it some "twang" a couple weeks before bottling. That settles and then you bottle. You might try that or lime juice as an alternative.

One more thing on the flavor you perceive: Too much k meta (free SO2) can add a flavor, but it usually is more like burnt matches.

Hope this helps some. This flies in the face of making wine as a lab experiment, but it works. 

All are welcome here in beginning winemaking, and thank you for your questions. I think the fact that you are asking them means you could become a great winemaker with experience and experimenting.


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## jswordy (Mar 18, 2013)

Coming back now for your secondary question. There are two stages of yeast's lives: aerobic and anaerobic. 

The primary is the aerobic (with oxygen) stage, where yeast grow prolifically and basically keep expanding population until their food resources run out or they pollute their own world so badly with alcohol that it kills them all. In my high sugar wine description, nearly all those yeast will be dead in primary.

Ideally, strong yeast like wine-specific yeast can survive higher alcohol. In winemaking as done in kits and recommended for newbies, at the stage where wine is dry and you are putting it in secondary you are transferring it just as the yeast is entering the anaerobic (without oxygen) stage. This is a stage where pops of yeast stabilize, and many and myriad chemical changes occur in the wine as it interacts with the yeast. Some yeast will feed off each other or even off the lees at the bottom of the container. They enter a survival mode that is good for the wine in an anaerobic environment. It is equally bad for the wine in the open air.

Plus, the wine is becoming more and more susceptible to oxygen and being oxidized as the CO2 made by vigorous aerobic yeast is slowing, so closing it off from air is good. Some CO2 is still produced, and we let that escape with an airlock.

At this stage, dead yeast accumulate over a longer time in the bottom of the carboy, usually in a formation called "compact lees." A lot of dead yeasties are all in a small layer of settlings. The action of yeast in its anaerobic stage adds characteristics to the wine, as well as the wine interacting with the lees and the mellowing of the alcohols.

This is why wine is aged and allowed to settle out its debris until clear, and why the finished liquid is aged even more after bottling. Time makes any drinkable wine much better, and some undrinkable ones fabulous. How much time depends on the type of wine.

Now if your mother were to save back a nice clear bottle of her Welch's concord for just 6 months, she would be amazed at how much better it tastes. Likewise, with blueberry, if you keep it more than a year, after that 12th month it gets much better and tastes completely different from what it was before. With strawberry, it improves to perhaps its best at two years. Each wine has its time, and while I enjoy drinking very much, I try to let at least a few bottles alone until their time arrives.


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## Phador (Mar 19, 2013)

Just wanted to say, I really appreciate your explaination of how the yeast does it's job jswordy, I learned a lot!


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## mcthomas (Mar 19, 2013)

Yes.. Phador... Thank you for your Comment... 
Mr. jswordy surely understands the concept of what is going on in there.... I always look for the concept in something also.. Once you understand the concept, the world opens up...

I got a good grip on it.. It was the best article written I have ever seen on the subject..
I was writing another note, while he was writing his note.. Maybe we posted at the same time... Mine never went through.. But,, it was spooky.... He was answering my questions,, almost in order of what I was writing.... 

I had started to thinking,,, that there really was not that much going on in the secondary as far as fermentation with what I was brewing at the time, although I was not ready to go to the primaries yet.. Due to the SG readings I started with on one, it should have run out of sugar before the secondary stage,, and therefore would have started to starve the yeast....
I knew that would be different than the second batches that had more sugar and would most likely have sugar left over,, and would most likely kill the yeast (I was using two control groups, one with wine yeast, one with Bread yeast)...
I figured the starving yeast would act differently than the yeast killed by alcohol....
Like I said,, he was answering my questions,,,, In order.. Ha.Ha... But my post was lost when I clicked submit for some reason... 
I also wrote a post to reply to Arne, to give him what I had found already about the twang taste I was trying to pin down.. Lost that one two, on the second attempt... 
I wrote two more, copied and pasted them,, and saved them,, and they did not post....
Going to do the same here now, but post until I see it show up.....

Yes, Mr. jswordy surely nailed down the concept for all of us... I greatly appreciated it...
This is what is going on,, and this is the physics behind what is going on, and this is how you can use that knowledge to make that knowledge useful.. He would be an excellent professor.. One,, that if you listened in class,,, passing the test would be pretty easy....

You guys have a great forum here....


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## mcthomas (Mar 19, 2013)

Arne: I have posted the Recipes that I am using for the 4 separate gallons of Blueberry, and 1 gallon of Banana/Raisin, and one gallon of Orange/Raisin.. All yeast was started for 4 hours before added to musts.. The 3 lb packs of Frozen Blueberries were thawed differently.
The first were mashed frozen.. Not so easy...
Each must was treated with Campden Tablets after mashing and adding sugar and water, and allowed to set 24 hours before adding the yeast starters.
Each waited 4 hours after starting the yeast in a starter, started at 105 degrees.
The musts were held at 80 degrees.. Buckets were in a water bath with an aquarium heater. 
I brewed this batch at 80 degrees, because I wanted to brew the next batch a cool slower brew and see the difference.. All other batches will be held at a steady 70 degrees. I have two large containers and have two adjustable temperature aquarium heaters.. 
I heat an old cabin with a wood stove and propane backup this time of the year, so I needed something with volume to manage the temperature swings, and reduce and eliminate them for my testing. So, these batch were held warm, but constant at 80 degrees.

Batch 1 and 2: The wine yeast had Nutrient added, the Bread yeast did not. 
Also batch 1 had a slightly sweeter pack of frozen blueberries.
This batch had 6 cups sugar added to Must.

Batch 3 and 4.. Bread yeast in one Wine yeast the other, both exact same additives.
This batch had 4 cups sugar added to must.


From my testing.. It appears to be limited to either or both together, the Acid Blend, or the Peptic Enzyme that I added to the must. It is possible that the Yeast Nutrient could add to this. I'll explain why I have said this.

This paragraph was added after Mr. Jswordy's fine post... The paragraph after this one was written before, but it would not post yesterday.
That may be further limited down to the Acid Blend, because it appears that the Peptic Enzyme would not really affect the flavor in that way. But having too much or too little acid would definitely give the wine a bite,, and since things like lemons and limes are acidic, it could definitely give it a bitter bite, which is part of the twang,, if I had to describe it.. but more actually.. Considering the myriad of chemical transactions and reactions(thanks Mr. jswordy) are taking place, there could be adverse or un-assumed reactions.. Considering the yeast is working aerobic at one stage and anaerobic at another, they are basically changing the way that they live between the two environments, first in the primary, and second phasing in the secondary environment. So, what happens at the Primary will have different yeast effects than the secondary environment.. 
I think frequent tasting at the secondary stage might even pin down the day that the twang starts to set in.. I have an acid test and sulfite test kit on the way, and I am going to pay close attention to the levels in my test groups, and see if I can pin it down to some concept I can use to find the range per batch where it can be avoided... 
Previously written comments below:

A word of caution.. I may be looking for the best Hootch around, and trying to get away from that perfectly balanced wine,, or I may be making Hootch,, on my way to the perfectly balanced wine,, Only time will tell.. 
But, these batches were brewed to actually test, the differences in yeasts,, in similar musts.. The yeasts used were Premier Cuvee general purpose wine yeast, and standard Fleshmans bread yeast, that my Mom has used for 20 years.
I think just about everyone agrees that Bread Yeast is a No-No,, but, I can't ignore that I have been drinking my Moms home brew for many years, and enjoying it, and have heard thousands of comments about how good it is, while I was enjoying and sharing a glass with friends.. So, I have to test both to see if I can match or beat her brew, and what it takes to do it.

First,, let me say,, I was using Recipes found on the Internet.. The "Best Blueberry",, etc.. But, not sure if my taste and the authors are the same in wine, so here goes. 

The batches without the Acid Blend and Peptic Enzyme do not have this twang. 
The Wine Yeast (Premier Cuvee) batches all have yeast nutrient. 
The batch that does not have Acid Blend and Peptic enzyme, but only Yeast and Nutrient, has a very slight hint of this twang, but, it is hard to notice.. So, it might add to the problem, but, not create it. These are batches 1 and 2. 

Both batches (Batch 3 and 4) that have the additives are heavy with the twang. 
I was not testing the sugar content, just wanted two different final sweetnesses.. But, the wine batches with 4-1/2 cups of sugar and Acid Blend and Peptic Enzyme with Premier Cuvee vs the Bread yeast same recipe,, the Premier Cuvee batch is really, really heavy with this twang..
I won't be able to drink the Batch 4, and won't be able to enjoy the batch 3. 

I was trying to experiment with Wine Yeast verses Bread yeast this test batch group,, and end up with what I thought a batch 1 and 2 Semi Sweet, and Batch 3 and 4 Semi Sweet, I could back sweeten if I wanted to..

Here are the Blueberry Wine batches 1-4. 
Each must was treated with Campden Tablets after mashing and adding sugar and water.
Each waited 4 hours before adding the yeast starters, started at 105 degrees.
Batch 1 and 2 was done in two gallon food safe Cake Frosting buckets.
Batch 3 and 4 was done in four gallon food safe Cake Frosting buckets.
Must temperatures were kept close to 80 degrees.. A little high, but, constant.
Used a water bath and a fish aquarium heater to keep temp regulated. 
Stirred each of the batches at least once per day. 
Bread yeast brewing was much more vigorous. Wine yeast slower but had a more definite taste of Alcohol. Clean fruit tastes in the first 3 days of brewing were varied.. No clear distinctions in the batches until past the 4th day. The clear and clean fruit flavors,, I will not try to comment, because it makes no sense to me right now. One of the Bread yeasts, and one of the Wine yeasts were best, but, from Batch 1 and from Batch 4, but this batch overpowered by the twang. 
The aroma,, changed drastically between the batches, but, best aroma finally from the yeast brew batch 1. 
Clarity of the blueberry brews best in batch 1 and 2, but, have not yet racked out of primary to see a clear bottle difference.

All have 3 pounds of Frozen Blueberries.. Each batch of blueberries was mashed the same way, but, the first was mashed slightly frozen, second thawed in Microwave, third was thawed in hot water, and fourth was simmered and mashed warm. I do not know what effect this might have on the batches.. Was trying to figure out the best way to get a good mashed berry.. Frozen was definitely not the way to do it.. Microwave thaw was next best, and simmering was the easiest.

BATCH 1, 
Bread Yeast – 1 Tsp Sugar
6 Cups Sugar
Started with Frozen Blueberries.
SG 1.014 at 96 degrees.. Just the Juice, No sugar.
SG 1.084 at 96 degrees.. Is the Juice and Sugar together.
BATCH 2
Premier Cuvee Yeast – 1 Tsp Sugar, ¼ Tsp Nutrient
6 Cups Sugar
Started with Defrosted Blueberries in Microwave.
SG 1.010 at 96 degrees.. Just the Juice.. No Sugar. 
SG 1.090 at 96 degrees... Is the Juice and Sugar together.
BATCH 3 
Bread Yeast 1 Tsp Nutrient – 1 Tsp Sugar 1-1/2 Tsp Acid Blend, 1 Tsp Peptic Enzyme.
4-1/2 Cups Sugar
Started with Blueberries thawed in water in the sink.
SG 1.010 at 96 degrees.. Just the Juice No Sugar.
SG 1.070 at 96 degrees.. Is the Juice and Sugar together.
BATCH 4
Premier Cuvee Yeast 1 Tsp Nutrient – 1 Tsp Sugar 1-1/2 Tsp Acid Blend, 1 Tsp Peptic Enzyme.4-1/2 Cups Sugar
Started with Blueberries simmered in water on the stove. 
SG 1.010 at 96 degrees.. Just the Juice No Sugar.
SG 1.070 at 96 degrees.. Is the Juice and Sugar together.

The last two gallons were Banana and raisin and Orange Juice Concentrate and Raisin.
Both done with Acid Blend, Peptic Enzyme. Both have a heavy twang,, but started out with a beautiful aroma and a fantastic flavor. Now fall into the "Probably won't drink" category,, and hope I find someone that likes this junk category.. Ha.. But,, I will definitely brew these two again.

The Banana Wine
2-1/2 Pounds Ripe Bananas (not overripe)
2-1/2 Pounds Sugar (Should be 5 Cups)
1 Pound of Raisins (chopped or Minced)
1 Teaspoon Yeast Nutrient
¼ Teaspoon Grape Tannin
3 Teaspoons of Acid Blend
1 Campden Tablet (Crush and Disolve in water, add to Must and then let Sit over night)
1 Package Champaign Yeast
1 Gallon of Water. (I add two more cups to be able to top off later in the 1 gallon after racking)

Orange Wine Recipe
12 Oz Frozen Orange Juice or 10 to 12 Oranges (I used Minute Made Premium Original) 
1 Pound Raisins
2-1/2 Pounds Sugar (Should be 5 Cups)
½ teaspoon pectic enzyme powder
½ teaspoon acid blend
1 teaspoon Yeast Nutrient
1 Packet All Purpose Wine Yeast (Premier Cuvee)
1 Campden Tablet Crushed and dissolved, added to must, set 24 hours then add yeast starter.
1 Gallon Water. 

The only common denominator in all wines that have the twang is the Peptic Enzyme and Acid Blend. The twang is much more evident in the wines started with less sugar. It maybe that the Extra Sugar has some negative effect on the generation of the flavor, or, possibly hides it.
I have never thought about it,, Hmmm... Just did a quick search..
"is cane sugar acidic or alkaline".. Seems since it is a food product,, whether it is acidic or alkaline is based on its content after digestion.. Not really what I am looking for...
I'll have to mix some up with some distilled water and test it when my kits get here...
If it is not acidic, it could actually be diluting it. Hmmm.... 

So,, I'm sure that will give you some ideas about the twang, and you might be able to verify if you have old batches with your original recipes you can let the wife taste and see if she agrees with this,, and she is able to pin down different acid contents as being the culprit..

I know it has to be a common ingredient in Commercial wine making.
I went on some wine tours in the last few weeks with some friends...
We tasted all of the wines at the "Biltmore" in Asheville, NC. I only found two of their wines that I was willing to purchase and "Have to Drink".. These also had the twang, were in the sweet wine list, and we not so bad..
Then, we went on a Wine Tasting Tour in Pigeon Forge/Gattlinburg Tn. 60 bottles of wine to taste..
Out of the 60, I found about 4 to 6 that were in the Good to Ok category..
I had to sample our homemade wine when I got back to the car, to remember what wine without twang tasted like.. Strange.. Most of the wines on the tour had it.. 
So,, Arne,, don't take your wife on the tour,,unless you really want her to appreciate your brewing Hobby ..
Anyway,,, we had a ball driving around to the different Wineries and tasting the wines..

Each batch I brew will be testing some point to figure this out.
I chose blueberry,, because I really like it, and brewed the best gallon of wine that I have ever tasted once with two pounds of frozen blueberries, 1 packet of bread yeast, and six cups of sugar, and I have tried this 4 or 5 times over the last 10 years, and have never been able to duplicate it,, even with what I remember the exact recipe. 
It is possible that I have this batch running right now, in batch 1. But, I'll have to wait until I rack it and give it a week or two to be able to tell. But, to be honest, should be able to tell in the must.. Looks good so far. 
If batch 1 works out,, I am going to start thinking that the temperature of the must being constant really does make a difference.. Next batch I run, I am going to run it at 70 degrees.. It was the temperature I kept my house at in Baton Rouge, when I brewed the first batch 10years ago. The rest of the batches,, I know the temperature was not constant, although, I had the same recipe. This batch is not as sweet, and it was brewed at 80 degrees and brewed faster.
It is the same heavy body, clean tasting, very blueberry wine with a clean aroma, and an alcohol taste that only comes after the taste, not during or before. Something that I really prefer. 

Ok,, so not too bad for a guy who just started reading about wine making two or three weeks ago.. I'll figure it out.. But,, I am going to be asking some strange questions when I do..

MR. JRWORDY... This is what I was talking about.. I was typing this, while you were typing your response.. spooky,, huh!... Ha..Ha.
Like,, when the alcohol content is actually high enough to kill the yeast, or, when the sugar is gone, it seems like the yeast will eventually die from alcohol poisoning or lack of food, so it will stop replicating. At this point,, in my opinion, not long after moving to the Secondary,, what is the wine actually doing? A slow bubble here and there.. Is it actually slowly degassing,, and not really brewing? If the alcohol content is acceptable, or too high to support yeast growth and replication, could the wine fermentation be stopped and degassed, and the clearing process started?
Could this be done at a stage of Taste, rather than a stage of fermentation (but, most likely finished fermenting).. If this is true, my Hootch, could be ready in say, 10-15 days most likely, and further time spent racking and clearing, with maybe only 4 or 5 days between racking to allow for sedimentation..
Arne: I know I am suggesting breaking every rule of winemaking in the book.. 
But, maybe I am talking about perfecting "Hootch making".. if this is the type of wine that I and your wife enjoys..
The only negative comment we ever have from Mom's home brew is,,, It's too sweet. And that comment always comes from someone who can spit out a list of shelf wines they prefer.
Every one else that tastes it,,wants to brew their own. I have lots of friends now who did not drink wine, because they don't like it, who uses Mom's recipe to brew their own..
Or,, should I say we have lots of Hootch drinking friends now.. Ha..

Cheers.. if anyone cares to drop two cents in..


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## mcthomas (Jan 13, 2016)

Arne said:


> I believe I have had some experience with the twang you are talking about. My wife complains about it. She will say this wine has it and the next one doesn't. Personally I have no idea what she is talking about, but if I could figure out what it is would try and make the wines without it. We drink very little storebought wines and she drinks very little all the time, so she has never colmplained about the store bought ones. If you figure out what it is, let me know and we can see if we can get rid of the taste. Arne.



After several years of brewing and testing and making notes.. I find it pretty darn simple to tell you how to get rid of the Twang, and make some really, really fine "Hooch" according to Mr. MNwino.. Ha.. 
I have had some hard core snooty wine drinkers along with everyone else beg for bottles of it... 

It's really simple... 
If you don't like the Twang,, stop using Wine Yeast, and swap over to Bread Yeast.. Red Star or Fleshmans (I prefer)... 
Yeast either dies from Starvation "Lack of food, ie.. Sugars, etc", or it gets Alcohol Poisoning, from the conversion and dies.. Bread yeast will convert as much sugar as some of the best distillers yeasts.. I have proved it too many times to accept the advice of those like Mr. MNwino, who think they know what they are talking about.. 

What would happen to a dog that was starving to Death, or that was dying from Alcohol poisoning.. Right.. I don't want that in my wine either.. 

What works every time... Take A SG reading.. When you get close to zero, get ready to pull it off.. Don't let the yeast get sick, and toss up in your wine. Actually, I think it comes from both ends... 
When you get to zero, or .01 before zero, or sooner, pull the wine, hit it with Potassium Sorbate and Potassium Metabisulfate to kill the yeast, and the next morning, rack it off... Get rid of the dregs... 
I pull a vacuum on mine that same day, and degass it.. Then, I clear it the next day, using Bentonite Clay... I brew (Primary), and degass and clear (secondary) in 10 to 14 days max, and have never had anyone say anything but, they Love the wine.... 

Read the articles from jswordy on what is happening in the Primary and Secondary fermentation, and see if that doesn't make perfect sense to you.. 
I can promise you.. Your wife would love my wine.. I don't like the twang either, and the only way I get it, is, if I let the wine sit after the Primary fermentation is finished, and let the yeast puke and poop in the wine.. At least that is what I see happening to it.. 

Don't let it sit without clearing it first.. You can buy a cheap vacuum pump from Harbor Freight that runs off of a Compressor.. A venturi pump.. $10.00.. You can see it in this video.. I pulled it out of it's box, to make it smaller to pack and put away.. Cheers.. Tell your wife I said hello, and my Gals (Grin) feel the same way.. All of them love a glass of wine on the front porch.. Ha..

The Video is not a step by step.. Just picked up the camera and recorded a bit here and there.. But, you see the operation.. I brew in a 100 year old cabin, warmed by a tweaked wood stove.. Not the perfect place to brew in the winter when I have time, but, it is brewed in a Science Lab sort of way.. Watch for the Manual Secondary towards the back of the video.. You can see how it's done.. I stopped posting when I found out what I wanted to learn.. Didn't want to offend people like Mr. MNwino, who are not interested in learning new tricks.. Cheers. Hope that helps.. 

The Video.. If it won't let me post the link,, Search for "Long Horn Rocket Stove", then you have found my channel.. Just click on the videos, then search for this title: How to Make Wine Overview. 10-14 days to Bottling.

https://youtu.be/ZnPsMlY70mk


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## mcthomas (Jan 13, 2016)

MNwino said:


> When I seen you where using bread yeast I stopped reading. When it stops fermenting I would just sweeten and drink it. It may never clear because of the bread yeast. Sounds like you prefer hootch to wine. Nothing wrong with that. Its all what you like afterall. No reason to really age any of it then.



Ha..Ha...Ha.. 
I did not know enough to argue with you back in March of 2013, when you made this comment,,, but,,, since I wanted to come back and help someone who was looking for the exact thing I was looking for, I figured I would comment...

You don't have a clue..Ha.. And, that is a proven fact.. 
I have made loads of wine since I was just a Junior.. I'll make two points.. 
I make wine that even the most picky wine drinkers love.. 
And,, I almost never use Wine Yeast.. Just once here and once there to prove that people don't care for wine brewed with it.. I always do it when I am making two of the exact same batches... Not once, has "ANYONE" picked the wine yeast over the Bread Yeast, and that is 3 years and hundreds of gallons of proof.. 

#2.. I clear my wine over night.. I treat one evening, and rack it the next.. I usually let it set a few more days, and rack it a final time, but, I don't always have to do it a second time.. I'm sure you are saying Hmmmm.. Right about now.. 
But, using Wine yeast, I have to fight with it and tweak it, and wait for it to clear on it's own.. So, fact #2 is dead wrong.. 

But, in your defense, I may be totally wrong.. To be honest, I don't know what you consider wine, and what you consider hooch.. But, if you are referring to what I brew as being inferior, like I said.. You don't have a clue..

Can't teach an old dog new tricks.. I know why they say that.. 
You should give up your "Old Dog", for a new one, and learn some new tricks.. Might find out that you like them just fine.. Cheers... 

Go ahead and try it.. I'll be happy to know that if you did, you have a big smile on your face.. I never have to see it, or know it.. I just know if you try it, you'll like it.. Look for a post just before this one if you want a few more tips/tricks on the procedure.. "How to Make Wine Overview. 10-14 days to Bottling.. Cheers..


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## Arne (Jan 14, 2016)

mcthomas said:


> After several years of brewing and testing and making notes.. I find it pretty darn simple to tell you how to get rid of the Twang, and make some really, really fine "Hooch" according to Mr. MNwino.. Ha..
> I have had some hard core snooty wine drinkers along with everyone else beg for bottles of it...
> 
> It's really simple...
> ...




Always ready to learn and try something new. Will give this a whirl and will report back. Probably won't get back to this post, but if it works will start a new one. Thanks for taking the time to give some advise. Only times I have tried bread yeast were with JOAM and years ago with welches (over 40 years ago) and with some chokecherry probably 30 or so years ago. Will give it a whirl again. Arne.


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