# Welch Grape Juice



## rosa6329 (Dec 22, 2011)

Well I am new to this wine making business. My girlfriend is purchasing me a wine kit along with a wine press. So while I wait for that to come, I was eager to start making mine. Therefore I purchased two welch's juice containers not the frozen one. I forgot to measure the sg before and after I added sugar. So what I have done so far was take out little less than two cups of juice in each container and added one cup of sugar to each. Then I split one yeast packet in half for each container. I know that during fermentation it will bubble and release gas. I am on the fourth day so far and its still bubbling. I went to measure the sg and I am at 1.072 on both containers. Is it too late to syphon the juice into a bigger container and add more water? Does it even need more water? What do you think? Is it suppose to smell bad? haha


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## Deezil (Dec 22, 2011)

You can move them both to a bigger container but i wouldnt add water.

Smell 'bad', as in? rotten eggs or what?.. Bad is a very general term and the more general you are, the less help you're likely to find here. We're sticklers for the details, as that's where one's mistakes are usually found.

Chalk it up as an experiment, enjoy the ride & know theres more to do, better notes to take, when you approach a more serious batch.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 22, 2011)

Deezil said:


> You can move them both to a bigger container but i wouldnt add water.
> 
> Smell 'bad', as in? rotten eggs or what?.. Bad is a very general term and the more general you are, the less help you're likely to find here. We're sticklers for the details, as that's where one's mistakes are usually found.
> 
> Chalk it up as an experiment, enjoy the ride & know theres more to do, better notes to take, when you approach a more serious batch.



Sorry, the odor smells like rotten fruit/rotten eggs. Is that a normal sign?


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## Deezil (Dec 22, 2011)

That is most likely a nutrient deficiency. If you have any yeast nutrient or energizer on hand, i would add per the directions. 

It's like going to the restaurant, ordering a steak, baked potato, salad & beer... And when you get your plate, there's the bone & fat from a steak, the baked potato skin, an empty salad bowl & the waiter took a drink off your beer on the way to the table..

Need to provide the yeast with all the missing nutrients not readily found in the grape juice. It's resulting in H2O gases being made, because the yeast are stressed. Adding the nutrient / energizer (2 different things) will help from making any more gas. To remove the gas / smell already made, splashing racking is usually recommended, but if that doesnt work - you're looking at neutralizing it with the introducing of copper somehow. Try splash racking first (siphoning back and forth, roughly, to expel gas) and if that doesnt work, im sure someone with more copper-using experience will chime in.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 22, 2011)

Deezil said:


> That is most likely a nutrient deficiency. If you have any yeast nutrient or energizer on hand, i would add per the directions.
> 
> It's like going to the restaurant, ordering a steak, baked potato, salad & beer... And when you get your plate, there's the bone & fat from a steak, the baked potato skin, an empty salad bowl & the waiter took a drink off your beer on the way to the table..
> 
> Need to provide the yeast with all the missing nutrients not readily found in the grape juice. It's resulting in H2O gases being made, because the yeast are stressed. Adding the nutrient / energizer (2 different things) will help from making any more gas. To remove the gas / smell already made, splashing racking is usually recommended, but if that doesnt work - you're looking at neutralizing it with the introducing of copper somehow. Try splash racking first (siphoning back and forth, roughly, to expel gas) and if that doesnt work, im sure someone with more copper-using experience will chime in.



I will try the splash racking. While doing this, should I syphon everything including the sediments at the bottom then add it all back? After splash racking should I continue to let the gasses to escape or put a cap so no air can escape? 

Thanks!


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## Deezil (Dec 22, 2011)

Splash rack everything. Your yeast colony is somewhat in the sludge at the bottom, you dont wanna lose that yet.

You always want to let the gasses escape during primary fermentation. Adding an airlock now, effectively, makes a bomb.... The yeast & sediment is rising and falling in the must right now, and if it rises and clogs the airlock, then the pressure builds and.. Well.. Your girlfriend wont be so keen on your new hobby if she sees you scrubbing the ceiling


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## rosa6329 (Dec 22, 2011)

Deezil said:


> Splash rack everything. Your yeast colony is somewhat in the sludge at the bottom, you dont wanna lose that yet.
> 
> You always want to let the gasses escape during primary fermentation. Adding an airlock now, effectively, makes a bomb.... The yeast & sediment is rising and falling in the must right now, and if it rises and clogs the airlock, then the pressure builds and.. Well.. Your girlfriend wont be so keen on your new hobby if she sees you scrubbing the ceiling



Now is their any difference between splash racking versus shaking up the bottle to relieve the gas? I am no expert thats why I need your knowledge


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## Deezil (Dec 22, 2011)

Because your batch is A) small, B) has a ways to ferment yet... you can get away with shaking it. When you get into larger batches or when the fermentation is almost done, you dont want to introduce oxygen into the must because it will oxidize/ruin the wine (theres no fix for oxidation) or its just too hard to pick it up and shake  . 

But at this point, oxygen is a good thing. So shake it to hell and back, until the smell changes.


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## closetwine (Dec 22, 2011)

First off... I'm all about the Welche's Cheapo stuff for practice, but realize by not using concentrate, you're looking at a very thin wine.. I'd say this one is your learning curve... Get you ready for the Real stuff!


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2011)

Rosa, I made a wine from Welch's concord grape juice (like one buys at Sam's club) just for fun. I made 6 gallons and looking at my records, I added 9.5 cups of sugar to raise the SG to 1.098. It fermented out very well to dry in 16 days at which time I stabilized and back sweetened it. I did not like the strong concord taste, so I added 6 lbs of mixed frozen berries (blueberries, blackberries and red raspberries) to flavor it. As the f-pack would rise each day, I would squeeze it by hand and it would sink to the bottom. I left the f-pack in for about 2 weeks and then cleared and bulk aged the wine for 2 months. I bottled it and it is a nice, fun wine, i.e. one to drink in the afternoon with nothing. It is not a great wine to have with a meal, just a nice refreshing beverage.


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## Sammyk (Dec 23, 2011)

Rocky are you saying that after it was done, you put it back in the primary with the berries for 2 weeks?


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## rosa6329 (Dec 23, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Rosa, I made a wine from Welch's concord grape juice (like one buys at Sam's club) just for fun. I made 6 gallons and looking at my records, I added 9.5 cups of sugar to raise the SG to 1.098. It fermented out very well to dry in 16 days at which time I stabilized and back sweetened it. I did not like the strong concord taste, so I added 6 lbs of mixed frozen berries (blueberries, blackberries and red raspberries) to flavor it. As the f-pack would rise each day, I would squeeze it by hand and it would sink to the bottom. I left the f-pack in for about 2 weeks and then cleared and bulk aged the wine for 2 months. I bottled it and it is a nice, fun wine, i.e. one to drink in the afternoon with nothing. It is not a great wine to have with a meal, just a nice refreshing beverage.



Now when you say 6 gallons of it, is that straight juice or juice mixed with water?


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2011)

Yes, *Sammyk*, I had it in a 5 gallon carboy and a 1 gallon carboy after sweetening. I added it all back to a fermenter, added the fruit in a bag and snapped down the lid tightly with an airlock installed.

*Rosa*, I did not add water other than the water used to dissolve the 9.5 cups of sugar in the simple syrup I made to raise the SG, which would have been about 4.25 cups.


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## Sammyk (Dec 23, 2011)

Rocky, is it safe to assume you had stabilized the wine first so it would not re-ferment?


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2011)

Yes, Sammyk, I stabilized before sweetening.

As I said, the wine is more like an afternoon beverage (although it has a lot of "kick") and is just nice to sip in the afternoon instead of a beer. The fruit flavors are all there and it does go with some sweeter cheeses and crackers.


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## Sammyk (Dec 23, 2011)

Ok, so what would be the difference in simmering the fruit and just adding the resulting juice, as opposed to put it in a bucket and then racking right away to carboys?


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## Rocky (Dec 23, 2011)

I guess you could do that and I would imagine that the result would be a slightly thinner wine due to fewer TDS (total dissolved solids) from the fruit itself. I think it could work either way and I am pleased with the result I got.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 23, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Yes, Sammyk, I stabilized before sweetening.
> 
> As I said, the wine is more like an afternoon beverage (although it has a lot of "kick") and is just nice to sip in the afternoon instead of a beer. The fruit flavors are all there and it does go with some sweeter cheeses and crackers.



What did you add to stabilize the wine?


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## Julie (Dec 23, 2011)

rosa6329 said:


> What did you add to stabilize the wine?



k-meta, also called Potassium metabisulfite and Sorbate.


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## Geronimo (Dec 23, 2011)

Juice made for drinking is also lacking in acid usually. Most people that attempt the "Welch's experiment" blow it on many levels. Getting the right initial SG, acidity and adding some yeast nutrient are the main ones.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 25, 2011)

So my sg is dropping. It's still in its first fermenting period. At what number on the sg am I looking for before I rack it? Or do I want until the bubbles stop before racking?


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## Rocky (Dec 25, 2011)

You could rack it to a carboy at about SG 1.020-1.030 and then ferment to dry (SG ~ 0.995). At that point it will be dry. If you want to sweeten the wine, stabilize it with K-meta and K-sorbate, wait a day or two to be sure that fermentation has stopped and then sweeten with simple syrup.


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## Geronimo (Dec 26, 2011)

Personally I'll never rack until primary is done, ~0.995 give or take a few points. I can't imagine what early racking might add, but I can say that patience is a virtue in all forms of brewing. Yeast often spin off weird compounds in the first day or two that they will clean up in the end if given the chance. There is no race to end the primary... 3 weeks is perfectly fine. Once in secondary, you're waiting for a lot of interesting things to happen (like oaking, clarifying, and developing character in bulk). This phase can continue for many months if desired. 

I have a gripe with the "ready in 6 weeks" on most of the wine kits. Yes, you can make a drinkable wine in 6 weeks. Add 6 months to it, and it goes from "drinkable" to "very good" or better.


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2011)

Rosa, you could leave the wine in your primary, as Geronimo points out, but make sure you snap down the lid very tightly when the SG hits around 1.020-1.030 and install an airlock in the lid. There are two stages to fermentation, aerobic ("with air" or primary) and anaerobic ("without air" or secondary). They both can be done in the same vessel if you so choose. I do it both ways and I don't see a major upside to either one other than a little less work in leaving it in the primary vessel vs. getting off the "gross lees" in going to the secondary vessel. Since you are working from juice, you should not have appreciable gross lees.


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## Geronimo (Dec 26, 2011)

Interesting response Rocky, I was wondering why I've been reading about changing up the fermentation after a few days. Maybe it's best to move this to a new thread, but I disagree with the practice you've mentioned (not that it hurts anything, but it's unnecessary). 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program


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## Rocky (Dec 26, 2011)

Not following you, Geronimo. Which practice that I mentioned do you disagree with and what part of it is unnecessary?


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## rosa6329 (Dec 27, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Rosa, you could leave the wine in your primary, as Geronimo points out, but make sure you snap down the lid very tightly when the SG hits around 1.020-1.030 and install an airlock in the lid. There are two stages to fermentation, aerobic ("with air" or primary) and anaerobic ("without air" or secondary). They both can be done in the same vessel if you so choose. I do it both ways and I don't see a major upside to either one other than a little less work in leaving it in the primary vessel vs. getting off the "gross lees" in going to the secondary vessel. Since you are working from juice, you should not have appreciable gross lees.



Ok so once I hit around 1.020 I should seal the cap and leave it in the same container or should i transfer into another container and close the lid?


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2011)

Yes, Rosa. That is what I have done on occasion, particularly when there is not a lot of sediment. Since you were using grape juice, I don't imagine you have a lot of sediment. Snap down the lid with an airlock installed and watch the airlock to see when fermentation has stopped for about three days in succession. At that point the wine should be dry. If you are fortunate enought to have a spigot you can rack the wine from the fermenter through it into a carboy. Remember to remove the airlock before opening the spigot or you will draw the liquid from the airlock into the primary.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 28, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Yes, Rosa. That is what I have done on occasion, particularly when there is not a lot of sediment. Since you were using grape juice, I don't imagine you have a lot of sediment. Snap down the lid with an airlock installed and watch the airlock to see when fermentation has stopped for about three days in succession. At that point the wine should be dry. If you are fortunate enought to have a spigot you can rack the wine from the fermenter through it into a carboy. Remember to remove the airlock before opening the spigot or you will draw the liquid from the airlock into the primary.



So the first fermenting stage you wouldnt or would use an airlock?


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## Rocky (Dec 28, 2011)

Rosa, I would not snap the lid down and add an arilock in the first stage, i.e. from starting SG to about 1.020. From that point on, which I consider the secondary stage, I would add the airlock and snap down the lid.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 28, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Rosa, I would not snap the lid down and add an arilock in the first stage, i.e. from starting SG to about 1.020. From that point on, which I consider the secondary stage, I would add the airlock and snap down the lid.



after that is done, what am I looking for exactly?


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## Rocky (Dec 28, 2011)

You would be looking for the end of fermentation, i.e. when there was no more evidence of conversion of sugar to alcohol and CO2. Once the airlock stops its bubbling activitiy for three consecutive days, your wine should be completely fermentetd to dry. Open the air lock and check the SG. It should be well under 1.000. At that point you could rack it into a carboy, sanitize and stabilize with K-meta and K-sorbate, add clarifiers if you choose to and allow to completely clear. Back sweeten if you feel you need to and then either bulk age in the carboy or bottle and allow to age in the bottle.


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## rosa6329 (Dec 28, 2011)

Rocky said:


> You would be looking for the end of fermentation, i.e. when there was no more evidence of conversion of sugar to alcohol and CO2. Once the airlock stops its bubbling activitiy for three consecutive days, your wine should be completely fermentetd to dry. Open the air lock and check the SG. It should be well under 1.000. At that point you could rack it into a carboy, sanitize and stabilize with K-meta and K-sorbate, add clarifiers if you choose to and allow to completely clear. Back sweeten if you feel you need to and then either bulk age in the carboy or bottle and allow to age in the bottle.



Now I am not going to sit around for 3 days straight to see if stopped bubbling. Is it safe to say that every time I look and it's not bubbling for 3 days is ok ? Instead of k-sorbate can I use Campden tablets?


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## Rocky (Dec 29, 2011)

I mean if you check you wine daily and it is not bubbling for three days, it is finished. 

K-sorbate and Campden tablets are two different things. Campden tablets are Potassium Metabisulfite (K-meta) in tablet form. Both are needed for stabilization.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 2, 2012)

So I started a mini fermenting trail on Welchs Juice on 12/18. Then on the 12/30 I got a reading of 1.040. Then today I checked it, its at 1.034. Its still in its primary and it has been past two weeks from the starting date. Should I continue to wait to see if the sg will decrease even more or should I transfer it into another container? What do you think??


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## Rocky (Jan 2, 2012)

It does not seem to be coming down very fast. Make sure you give your hydrometer a little spin when you put it in the wine to make sure that bubbles of CO2 are not bouying it up. I would let it get to 1.030 or less and then rack it into a carboy. You may be coming up on a stuck fermentation and it may stop around 1.010 or so. You might want to consider a yeast energizer when you rack.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 2, 2012)

Rocky said:


> It does not seem to be coming down very fast. Make sure you give your hydrometer a little spin when you put it in the wine to make sure that bubbles of CO2 are not bouying it up. I would let it get to 1.030 or less and then rack it into a carboy. You may be coming up on a stuck fermentation and it may stop around 1.010 or so. You might want to consider a yeast energizer when you rack.



I did spin it the hydrometer as I was placing it in. Like you said, it just seems its going down very slow..hmmm:


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## chevs15 (Jan 2, 2012)

I just bought some Welch's Grape Juice frozen concentrate to make a 5 gallon batch. Can I start this in a carboy or do I need to start this in a primary bucket?


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## rosa6329 (Jan 2, 2012)

chevs15 said:


> I just bought some Welch's Grape Juice frozen concentrate to make a 5 gallon batch. Can I start this in a carboy or do I need to start this in a primary bucket?



I say bucket because you need some extra space during your fermenting. Send the recipe =)


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## rosa6329 (Jan 3, 2012)

just took another reading I am at 1.030. I started this batch on the 12/18. Its taking forever to drop. Should I wait or transfer it into a secondary?


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2012)

Since it is moving so slowly, there would be no problem in racking to the carboy now.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 3, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Since it is moving so slowly, there would be no problem in racking to the carboy now.



I can add a campden tablets to it when I rack it?


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2012)

Don't add the K-meta (campden tablets) until fermentation has completely stopped. The k-meta can stun the yeast and then it will really slow down.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 3, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Don't add the K-meta (campden tablets) until fermentation has completely stopped. The k-meta can stun the yeast and then it will really slow down.



So since the sg wasnt as low as I wanted it, should I wait a couple more days before adding potassium sorbate, Kieselsol and Chitosan? Or should I just add them now?


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## rosa6329 (Jan 3, 2012)

rosa6329 said:


> So since the sg wasnt as low as I wanted it, should I wait a couple more days before adding potassium sorbate, Kieselsol and Chitosan? Or should I just add them now?



Does anyone know?


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## chevs15 (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm going to start this tomorrow! If I wanted to add oak chips to this, when would be the best time? Also, add bentonite or not?

Thanks!


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2012)

Do not add the K-sorbate. That will stop all further yeast activity. Let the wine go on fermenting until it stops fermenting on its own. Just be sure to keep it under airlock at this point. K-sorbate is only needed if you want to back sweeten the wine and want to be sure that it does not start to ferment again. Kieselsol and Chitosan are used to clarify the wine. Let it go by itself for now.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Do not add the K-sorbate. That will stop all further yeast activity. Let the wine go on fermenting until it stops fermenting on its own. Just be sure to keep it under airlock at this point. K-sorbate is only needed if you want to back sweeten the wine and want to be sure that it does not start to ferment again. Kieselsol and Chitosan are used to clarify the wine. Let it go by itself for now.



Thanks rocky


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

So after my 15 days of fermenting I transferred it into another container. When I did it I saw very little/no bubbling. Now it's starting to bubble like it did when it was in its primary stage. Right now it is topped off so there's very little air in it. How come it's starting to bubble like crazy again? Not going to explode right?


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## Rocky (Jan 4, 2012)

The last SG reading was 1.030 so it has some more fermenting to do. It could have warmed somewhat increasing the fermentation activity. Keep it under airlock. It will be fine.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

Rocky said:


> The last SG reading was 1.030 so it has some more fermenting to do. It could have warmed somewhat increasing the fermentation activity. Keep it under airlock. It will be fine.



Wl do, then check it in two weeks?


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## chevs15 (Jan 4, 2012)

What's should the starting SG be? And what should I do if it's a little higher?


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

chevs15 said:


> What's should the starting SG be? And what should I do if it's a little higher?



Well since I'm a newbie stupid me forgot to check the sg before putting the yeast


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## chevs15 (Jan 4, 2012)

My starting SG is 1.100. Is that too high? If so, what can I do to fix that?


Thanks


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

chevs15 said:


> My starting SG is 1.100. Is that too high? If so, what can I do to fix that?
> 
> 
> Thanks



Did you purchase the juice containers or the frozen ones? How much sugar did you add?


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## chevs15 (Jan 4, 2012)

I used the frozen concentrate. I multiplied the recipe I posted by 5 to make 5 gallons.


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

chevs15 said:


> I used the frozen concentrate. I multiplied the recipe I posted by 5 to make 5 gallons.



where did you post it?


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

rosa6329 said:


> where did you post it?



Nevermind I found it  for making a 5 gallon batch of welchs juice and using 10 tsp of acid blend, 5 tsp of pectic enzyme, 5 tsp of yeast nutrient. Does that seem like a lot?


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## chevs15 (Jan 4, 2012)

Lol I just followed what I was told.... We will see


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## rosa6329 (Jan 4, 2012)

chevs15 said:


> Lol I just followed what I was told.... We will see



I looked at the frozen cans and it contains the same ingredients as the bottle juice did. Unless I looked at the wrong frozen ones..? Is there a difference that I didnt see??


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## chevs15 (Jan 4, 2012)

Someone with more experience should answer that one! I have no idea! Lol


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## chevs15 (Jan 5, 2012)

So I put the activated yeast on last night. Before I went to bed I checked on it and I could hear it bubbling.

This morning there is a little foam on the top but I do t hear or see any action going on. Should I worry?


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## Lizerdking (Jan 5, 2012)

rosa6329 said:


> I looked at the frozen cans and it contains the same ingredients as the bottle juice did. Unless I looked at the wrong frozen ones..? Is there a difference that I didnt see??



Only difference I know of is making it a stronger thicker juice by using concentrate (ie, 3 cans per gallon rather than the 2 you would use if you were just mixing to make juice), the premixed stuff tends to be thin once fermented out.

1.1 is going to be hot... not bad, it'll taste like wine, but like someone spiked it with a little vodka...

My first batch was basically this, starting SG of 1.1 with 13 cans of concord, but I added some blackberries, peppercorns, a banana slurry, some oak chips, all the things I could think of to try and make it taste a little less like concord.

It's been aging in a carboy almost a year now, and the heat was starting to dissipate last i tasted it in october... 

Higher proof needs to sit a little longer to calm down, lower proof tends to be drinkable sooner..



chevs15 said:


> So I put the activated yeast on last night. Before I went to bed I checked on it and I could hear it bubbling.
> 
> This morning there is a little foam on the top but I do t hear or see any action going on. Should I worry?




Nope, wait at least a few days before you panic, every batch is different, I've had em start in hours, and had em start in 72 hours...


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## chevs15 (Jan 5, 2012)

Wow! Great info! Is there a way I can bring down the SG a bit?
Also, when and how did you add the oak chips, etc..?

Thanks so much!


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## Lizerdking (Jan 5, 2012)

Other than making another batch with low SG and then blending the two together, you're stuck where you are at. Make some other batches and let this one sit awhile, Skeeter Pee is where it's at to help keep your hands off the stuff you want to age. 

Oak chips can be added whenever from what i understand, I usually throw them in after degassing and sorbating, I started out using mesh bags that tended to rip out on me. Now i just add them straight in, let set for 4-8 weeks and re-rack when i feel it's been long enough. 

The banana slurry,the peppercorns, and the smushed blackberries all went in the primary.


The longer you let it bulk age the better, just make sure your airlocks don't run dry, and to re-up on your sulfate every few months. I usually re-rack to help with getting the sediment out of the mix when adding the sulfate, it'll help it clear and make a better presentation when it's bottled. I hate thinking it's clear, bottling and storing it. Only later when going to down to the wine rack to grab a bottle to give away/share to find out there are floaties (or sinkies would be a better description), they don't bother me, but friends not familiar with wine making tend to curl their noses...


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## rosa6329 (Jan 6, 2012)

So Welch Juice is in stuck fermentation. I went to take a sg reading and I am at 1.020. Its been in its primary since 12/18. What should I do??


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## chevs15 (Jan 6, 2012)

If I started at SG 1.10... At around what SG should I rack to a carboy?


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## rosa6329 (Jan 7, 2012)

chevs15 said:


> If I started at SG 1.10... At around what SG should I rack to a carboy?



No idea mine is stuck at 1.020 I am not sure if I should add some yeast energizer or nutrient in it...?


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## chevs15 (Jan 8, 2012)

I tested mine yesterday and it was at 1.05. So its dropping. Still pretty bubbly and foamy! Smells great though. Should I airlock it yet?


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## Lizerdking (Jan 9, 2012)

Things tend to slow down, that last bit of sugar takes the longest to ferment out. To give it a kickstart you can give it a good stir to mix in some air. You can probably siphon it off to a carboy and put an airlock on it today or tomorrow. I usually do that when it's between 1.02 or less. Don't worry too much about oxidation at this point, until you degas it there's not much of a worry with air contact. In fact getting a little extra oxygen mixed in will help it finish fermenting.


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