# Rescued vineyard, following 3 vines, pruned differently.



## NorCal (Jan 23, 2022)

I would like to preface this thread by saying that I’m no expert, but I‘ve successfully worked on multiple vineyards and worked with real vineyard professionals over the years. We walked into the current situation 6 months ago when we bought the property with 178 vines. I believe the vines were properly cared for originally (20+ years ago), but fell into an unmanaged state. The biggest issue was that the spurs were allowed to grow above the first and sometimes second guide wire.

The vines were not suckered, sprayed or irrigated when we bought the property. 85% of the fruit had to be tossed, mostly due to mildew.

I did an unsympathetic pruning, balancing this years fruit, proper vine structure and aesthetics. I marked these three vines which represents the overall vineyard and I will follow them on this post all the way through to harvest.

Vine 1, the GOOD
Able to prune spurs below guide wire, 2 buds per spur left from last year’s wood mostly available at a reasonable height. Spurs may not be pointing in the right direction, but it’s what I had to work with.



Vine 2, the BAD
Spurs above first catch wire and in some cases above the top catch wire. I lopped the whole thing off and started over. Two shoots used from last years wood to start a new cordon.



Vine 3, the UGLY
Spurs above first catch wire and in some cases above the top catch wire. No shoots from last year to start a new cordon. Left a shoot from last years wood where available, but not possible on many spurs.


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## balatonwine (Jan 24, 2022)

Taming an old vineyard. Been there, on a vineyard with about 1500 vines to trim.


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## Snafflebit (Feb 7, 2022)

What type of grape is this? Have you found signs of Eutypa?


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## balatonwine (Feb 7, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> What type of grape is this? Have you found signs of Eutypa?


To whom are you asking? Me or @NorCal


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## Snafflebit (Feb 7, 2022)

@NorCal specifically, but I am willing to listen to others


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## NorCal (Feb 7, 2022)

Zin, Syrah and Cab Sauv. There were no signs of eutypa in the vineyard.


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## NorCal (Mar 25, 2022)

We've had bud break, so I thought I would provide an update.

Vine 1, the GOOD
Looking back, I'm not sure I would have labeled this one as good as you can see I did major pruning to reduce the height of the spurs. I did get pretty consistent two shoots per spur. I suckered around the spur locations but there wasn't much.



Vine 2, the BAD
This is yet to be seen. There are shoots coming out at the locations expected and who knows, this may turn out to be the way to restart this vineyard in the future, provided there are new shoots available in the right location.




Vine 3, the UGLY
This is where I think I didn't do the vine any favors. I am now thinking that instead of pruning the spur down below the first guide wire, perhaps I should have taken it all the way down to the cordon and selected new spur locations as they came up.



I'd rather have a new spur location on the cordon than a goofy one at the max height I would want the spur. What I wasn't sure of is if and how many new spur locations would appear if I took all the spur locations down to the cordon.


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## balatonwine (Mar 26, 2022)

NorCal said:


> We've had bud break, so I thought I would provide an update.
> 
> Vine 3, the UGLY
> This is where I think I didn't do the vine any favors. I am now thinking that instead of pruning the spur down below the first guide wire, perhaps I should have taken it all the way down to the cordon and selected new spur locations as they came up.
> ...



I agree that you you left those too high. I would never allow spurs to get that tall. But I do know in CA vineyards they often do. I personally think this is not a good idea. It is so easy to keep the spurs close to the cordon, and IMHO, one should.

Grape vines are vines. I have headed them, to trunk only, with no visible buds, yet they will still sprout shoots. With vines, the error is often in being too cautious than in being too radical.

If one does a radical cut, suggest to not let those bear and fruit that year, so not to stress the vines, but even if you do not do this, the vine often is okay. Grape vines are amazingly resilient to pruning. The greatest issue is the large cut does increase the possibility of trunk disease. But doing the more drastic pruning in an appropriate time, and applying appropriate treatments to the cut, can reduce that.

Hope this helps.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 27, 2022)

I try not to sacrifice a fruiting spur until I get a bud started near the cordon. So, I can have three canes growing on a spur sometimes. If the renewal bud does not get up to size I will trim it back to one bud and usually the next year it grows strong enough to replace the spur.


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## NorCal (Apr 14, 2022)

Update on the three. 
vine 1 good. Suckered, strong growth.




Vine 2 Bad. The growth is lagging behind the vines that have established cordons, but it may be a new start for this type vine.



The Ugly. Still ugly with little hope for anything productive this season. It may have been better to lop it off at the cordon wire and establish new cordons for next year.


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## Snafflebit (Apr 14, 2022)

There is a difference in vigor and bud break across varieties. Are these three vines pictured the same variety?
Also, neglected vines get out of balance, and accepting a smaller crop in the beginning may be a better choice than radical vine surgery.
And also, some areas of a vineyard have different soil composition and layers, and those vines can struggle, but it is usually a visible block of vines affected. Those areas can be pruned to bear smaller crops.


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## NorCal (Apr 14, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> There is a difference in vigor and bud break across varieties. Are these three vines pictured the same variety?
> Also, neglected vines get out of balance, and accepting a smaller crop in the beginning may be a better choice than radical vine surgery.
> And also, some areas of a vineyard have different soil composition and layers, and those vines can struggle, but it is usually a visible block of vines affected. Those areas can be pruned to bear smaller crops.


Good point. The good & bad are Zin and the ugly is Cab Sauv. The Cab Sauv has significant less vigor across the vineyard than the Zin and Syrah.


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## NorCal (May 8, 2022)

Another update, for those following along.



The good, strong growth, good fruit set.



The bad has good fruit set as well, but lagging behind.



The ugly is going to be a waste of a year. Maybe a cluster or two. I would have been better off to lop all the spurs down to the cordon and just planned on picking new spurs for next year. In this case, I’m not sure the cordons are all that healthy.


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## Snafflebit (May 10, 2022)

On "The Ugly", I am guessing that you cut off last year's canes by trimming back the spur. It is not easy to determine what was trimmed in the photos. New buds pushing off a spur or cordon are often not fruitful unless you get lucky. Pruning vines is a game of guessing and sometimes you lose. I talked to a vintner who was growing Cab Sauv, Syrah and a few other varietals around Grass Valley and he cane pruned everything. I was shocked, but it worked for him and maybe your plan to cut off the arms is right.


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## NorCal (May 11, 2022)

I'm happy the results of the good and bad vines, I think short term and long term they were good solutions. Clearly I made an error on the ugly type vines, but I need to plan for next year. The ugly vines were those vines that had really extended spurs, up to 2 feet and above the top wire in some cases. They also did not have a confienently located shoot from last year that I could start new cordons like the "bad" scenario. Looking back, how would you have pruned this type vine, knowing there wouldn't be any fruit that next year, but you were looking to get the vine back into shape in the long term?

White - is what I did
Red - cut the spurs flush with the cordon, to establish new spurs
yellow - cut cordons off, look to to establish new cordons 
pink - cut it all off and look to establish new cordons


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## NorCal (May 11, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> On "The Ugly", I am guessing that you cut off last year's canes by trimming back the spur. It is not easy to determine what was trimmed in the photos. New buds pushing off a spur or cordon are often not fruitful unless you get lucky. Pruning vines is a game of guessing and sometimes you lose. I talked to a vintner who was growing Cab Sauv, Syrah and a few other varietals around Grass Valley and he cane pruned everything. I was shocked, but it worked for him and maybe your plan to cut off the arms is right.


I could see the benefit of cane pruning. I would only do that one year, to get new cordons in place and then going forward do spur pruning.


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## VinesnBines (May 11, 2022)

Several vineyards in Virginia cane prune. I wanted to spur prune my young vines for frost protection (double pruning) but I was having trouble establishing the cordon so most of my vines are cane pruned.

Out of curiosity, why the preference for spur pruning? Ease of pruning? Less tying down?


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## NorCal (May 11, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Several vineyards in Virginia cane prune. I wanted to spur prune my young vines for frost protection (double pruning) but I was having trouble establishing the cordon so most of my vines are cane pruned.
> 
> Out of curiosity, why the preference for spur pruning? Ease of pruning? Less tying down?


The rmain reason is that the rest of the vineyard is spur pruned and would want to maintain vine to vine consistency.


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## Snafflebit (May 11, 2022)

NorCal said:


> Looking back, how would you have pruned this type vine, knowing there wouldn't be any fruit that next year, but you were looking to get the vine back into shape in the long term?



I personally would do a few things:

Preserve two well positioned canes in the head of the vine that could be used to replace the cordons. 
Continue to shoot thin the spurs until there are 2-3 canes that reach pencil thickness on each spur. 
Around harvest before the rains start either prune the spurs down to the lowest cane that reached 2 feet long, or decide the cordons are bad and cut them off and lay down the renewal canes you preserved.

Cutting off the cordons now will push the new canes and cause them to grow long internodes and that makes bad cordons. If that happens, the lateral shoots off a cane are good for new arms because of their short internodes.


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## TurkeyHollow (May 11, 2022)

I thought the variety determined the pruning and trellising methods. If the fruit is born closer to the ends of the cane, it was cane pruned. If the fruit is born closer to the cordon (or spurs), it was spur pruned.


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## VinesnBines (May 11, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> I thought the variety determined the pruning and trellising methods. If the fruit is born closer to the ends of the cane, it was cane pruned. If the fruit is born closer to the cordon (or spurs), it was spur pruned.


I know Nebbiolo has to be cane pruned because it will not bear on the first four buds nearest the trunk or cordon. Otherwise, I don’t know which varieties bear close or far from the cordon.


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## TurkeyHollow (May 11, 2022)

On the vines @NorCal showed (the good, the bad & the ugly), is that a type of algae on them? I'm in the North East and have something very similar looking on trees. I'm now wondering if that is going to affect my vines or if it has any impact on the quality of vine/fruit health. Still fairly new to the vineyard side so all info is appreciated.


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## TurkeyHollow (May 11, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I know Nebbiolo has to be cane pruned because it will not bear on the first four buds nearest the trunk or cordon. Otherwise, I don’t know which varieties bear close or far from the cordon.


Good to know as I've looked for data on varieties and best trellis / pruning practices... I guess there are no hard fast rules. The things I've read aren't practiced in local vineyards. I'm just trying to understand their decisions so I can be comfortable with mine as we expand.


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## NorCal (May 12, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I personally would do a few things:
> 
> Preserve two well positioned canes in the head of the vine that could be used to replace the cordons.
> Continue to shoot thin the spurs until there are 2-3 canes that reach pencil thickness on each spur.
> ...


I‘ll let this year ride. I was planning on pruning strategy in Januar of next year, given how the vines turned out. Of the ugly there will not be any well positioned shoots for next year, because of how I pruned it.


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## NorCal (May 12, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> On the vines @NorCal showed (the good, the bad & the ugly), is that a type of algae on them? I'm in the North East and have something very similar looking on trees. I'm now wondering if that is going to affect my vines or if it has any impact on the quality of vine/fruit health. Still fairly new to the vineyard side so all info is appreciated.


It’s a lichen I believe. I know it can’t be good for the health of the vines. This vineyard went neglected for many years prior to my purchase last year. I knock it off when I can and hoping a few sprays with controlled copper will help eradicate it.


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## TurkeyHollow (May 12, 2022)

NorCal said:


> It’s a lichen I believe. I know it can’t be good for the health of the vines. This vineyard went neglected for many years prior to my purchase last year. I knock it off when I can and hoping a few sprays with controlled copper will help eradicate it.


I'm glad to hear that it was on neglected vines - not that you had to deal with it but that it may not happen on vines cared for. Like I said, I had what looks to be the same thing on some Hickory trees and it just brushed off (didn't have a real "grip" on the bark. It looks like your vines are well lignified so it may be fairly easily remediated. Either way, good luck - the vines all look like pruning will bring them right back.


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## Snafflebit (May 12, 2022)

What is interesting to me is the lichen seems to indicate you have high humidity. I have never heard of lichen hurting the underlying plant. It does not extend deeper than the top of the bark. Sulfur spray might knock it back also.


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## NorCal (Jun 12, 2022)

Update. 3 sprayings to date, 4th planned tomorrow. No signs of mildew, which wiped the vineyard out last year, before I bought it. Minor hedging to keep the rows apart, with a fresh weed mowing. Have not started irrigation yet.



The Good, vigorous and 10 big clusters. Will leaf thin later, but we have some brutal 100 degree days coming up.




The Bad, 13 medium clusters. Much more consistent growth, lots of fruit.




The Ugly, 3 clusters. Confirms I should have called it a lost year and focused on developing 2 new cordons, given the health of the current cordon.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 23, 2022)

I also have been trying to improve cordon health by half measures, cut of one arm then the other arm next year, etc. It's kind of working but I have seen new cordons have problems with eutypa also. I could have gotten a bud started down the trunk and top work that into a new cordon then chop off the old cordon. Now I am thinking I should cut off whole cordons and get some water shoots going and rework the cordon. Even if I lose 2 years, ugh.


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## Joe B. (Jun 25, 2022)

NorCal, what product have you been applying for the mildew?


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## NorCal (Jun 25, 2022)

Joe B. said:


> NorCal, what product have you been applying for the mildew?


Just sulphur / water thus far. I was going to alternate with a copper based spray, but thus far I’ve stuck with sulfur. 

I also have to add that I hurt my back this last time. The backpack has to weigh 50 pounds or more and the vineyard has some elevation to it. I’ve had lower back issues in the past (60’s, 6’4”). Two weeks later, I’m still dealing with lower back pain, although I turned the corner I think.

I’ll need to figure out a better way, without carrying the pack.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 25, 2022)

So I’m 120 pounds (woman) 5’ 4” and 60 with back pain. The backpack was too much for me but I tried until it broke. I discovered that a 3 gallon Chapin sprayer is ideal in lieu of the backpack. I can slide it along the ground and when it gets to 1/2 empty I can carry it easily. I plan to use my new pro sprayer on the tractor for fungicide but I’m still using the 3 gallon for herbicide or small area spraying. I’m short enough though that I don’t have to bend much to get the handle and slide it on the grass.

Maybe a tank on the back of an atv? I considered that option before we got 3pt hitch sprayer.


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## Joe B. (Jun 25, 2022)

Sorry to hear about your back I had the same issue with a foot a couple of years getting old sucks I'm in my 60's also. At least you have it under control and the high temps should will help out from here on.


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## NorCal (Jun 25, 2022)

Is this a sign of mildew stains or it starting to develop more woodened shoots?


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## Joe B. (Jun 25, 2022)

The red stains probably not, the black looks like it could be. Look at the underside of the leaves of the newer shoots from the tip on down it will be white and quite visible. Even if it is on the leaves some it is just a matter of keeping it off the fruit. Which is not difficult with the temps we experience in the summer. I have some mildew on the underside of the leaves on my Barbera ever year but have not had any on the fruit. I don't use sulfur but use Stylet Oil and Kaligreen, with mixed results, Zin and Grenache stay clean and the Barbera and Syrah I battle ever year. I even spray limesulfer when dormant but the Barbera and Syrah keep me busy.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 26, 2022)

I think the blackish marks on the shoots is powdery mildew. I would expect to see some signs on the leaves.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 28, 2022)

I just performed a second round of leaf pulling and yes, I found signs of the same powdery mildew on my stems. And no, I did not see any clear signs of powdery mildew on the leaves. So, I increased the sulfur to 3 Tbsp. per gallon and sprayed today.


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## Joe B. (Jun 29, 2022)

Snafflebit,

How often do you spray and what sulfur product do you use. Do you add a spreader/sticker? I'm considering trying sulfur again next year.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 29, 2022)

I use an app called Pest Prophet and the grape powdery mildew model which is precise, but I could simply spray sulfur on a two-week cycle and probably be fine. No rain in San Jose summers to wash off the sulfur.

I have been traveling and lax on the spraying schedule.

I use just this and water. It sticks to leaves just fine. It is cheap. and available on Amazon. 
​​


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## NorCal (Jun 29, 2022)

…and of course it has a “except in California“ notice.


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## NorCal (Jun 29, 2022)

The first signs of veraison in the vineyard. Im seeing mildew pressure on the cab, but not the Syrah or Zin.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 29, 2022)

Wow, veraison already. I am guessing that is a picture of the Zinfandel


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## NorCal (Jun 29, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> Wow, veraison already. I am guessing that is a picture of the Zinfandel


You are a vineyard dude! Nicely done, Zin. There are some football sized clusters in there. 
The real question will be, how many I can get in the bin. We share this property with a lot of wildlife. When we moved here last year the vineyard was a mess with mildew everywhere and I have a feeling that even the local foxes, skunks, opossums, squirrel, birds passed on the fruit. There are a lot of deer (and a bear sighting down the street), but we’ve never seen one on our fenced property.
I‘m hoping I’m on the glide slope to harvest, but ya never know.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 30, 2022)

Are you trying any netting or fencing? Nothing will stop the bear but you might stop the rest.


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## NorCal (Jul 1, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Are you trying any netting or fencing? Nothing will stop the bear but you might stop the rest.


The property is fenced, 4 foot with no-climb, but nothing that would stop any of the animals. I’ll have to wait and see how much the other residents consume to see if I need to better secure the fruit. I’m getting a fruit zone going and I know it will also make it easier for the critters to get it too.


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## VinesnBines (Jul 1, 2022)

I was cleaned out overnight so I wouldn’t wait long.


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## Neb Farmer (Jul 1, 2022)

Got critters? This will work


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## NorCal (Jul 10, 2022)

Some better pics of the fruit.

Good


Bad


Ugly


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## Snafflebit (Jul 10, 2022)

The new cordons look very fruitful and you have good fruit set. Do you irrigate and/or fertilize?


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## NorCal (Jul 11, 2022)

I’ve started to irrigate. We’ve had a few hot streaks and this week it’s going to be a 97-103 week. So far the canopy is holding up. I think there will be leaf loss due to mildew as well as leaf hoppers. I’m done spraying for mildew. I think I’ll fasten the seatbelt and see what the vineyard delivers. I’m still learning. If the canopy collapses on a variety, I may decide on making it a rose this year. 
Overall, the Zin is huge, Syrah doing good and the cab sauv is struggling.

Tonights sunset.


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## wood1954 (Jul 11, 2022)

I can relate to carrying a heavy backpack sprayer, I’m going to make a small motorized cart to move mine. My neighbors son is going to college studying engineering and he said he’d help design it. I wish I would have bought a small wheeled unit.


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## NorCal (Jul 11, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> I can relate to carrying a heavy backpack sprayer, I’m going to make a small motorized cart to move mine. My neighbors son is going to college studying engineering and he said he’d help design it. I wish I would have bought a small wheeled unit.


Oh do share! I saw the benefit of the high speed fan, blowing the leaves aside, while it was getting misted with the water/sulfur. I was thinking of how I could make something to accomplish this task without spending $400.

I'd like to see if I could attach something to the jeep and I have a sprayer and a battery operated leaf blower. I do not have turn-arounds at the end of the rows, so pulling a trailer is out. May be a winter project.


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## Snafflebit (Jul 11, 2022)

You can also dry blow sulfur dust on the vines, which has better coverage and is lighter. But of course you have dust to deal with.


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## ChuckD (Jul 11, 2022)

NorCal said:


> I'd like to see if I could attach something to the jeep and I have a sprayer and a battery operated leaf blower.


I will be making one of these for next year. 15 or 20 gallon tank sprayer with 30’ hose married to a DeWalt 60 volt max, axial fan leaf blower.


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## Joe B. (Jul 12, 2022)

It really looks good I would be putting in an order for bird netting so you can get the vines covered before the ripening fruit attracts all the critters. The commercial guys can weather bird losses but they devastate us hobby growers. FYI, smaller netting holes size will slow down raccoons but not stop them as they will find a seam and get into the canopy instead of just picking the fruit through the netting..


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## ChuckD (Jul 12, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> I can relate to carrying a heavy backpack sprayer, I’m going to make a small motorized cart to move mine. My neighbors son is going to college studying engineering and he said he’d help design it. I wish I would have bought a small wheeled unit.


Do you have one of the backpack blowers or just a sprayer? For the sprayer, something like a golf bag cart could work. @Vern was talking about mounting his backpack blower tight behind his tractor seat so he could ride and spray. Apparently you need it tight behind you… almost as if you are wearing it.


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## NorCal (Aug 20, 2022)

Harvest day!

Weighed out the three vines:
Good 6.0 lbs
Bad 5.2 lbs
Ugly .2 lbs

I would say the good had reasonably good grapes, the “ bad “ had better looking grapes, the ugly had a single decent cluster.


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## wood1954 (Aug 20, 2022)

NorCal said:


> Harvest day!
> 
> Weighed out the three vines:
> Good 6.0 lbs
> ...


Doesn’t sound too bad, cluster looks great


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## Snafflebit (Aug 21, 2022)

Nice looking cluster. What Brix did you target?


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## NorCal (Aug 21, 2022)

For most reds, my target is 25.0 by 3.5….that’s my bullseye. 

Zin 25.3/3.8, adjusted to 23.5/3.45 (rose)
Syrah 24.6/3.7, adjusted to 24.6/3.6
Cab 23.3/3.6 (no adjustment, 10 gallon blender)

I was going to wait to pick on the Cab, but logistics took precedence. I knew there wasn’t a lot of fruit, so I didn’t want to have to fire up the operation for 150 pounds of Cab. Cab is not a good variety for my area. I may look to graft cab Franc on to those vines, which does well here. This 10 gallons of cab will be blended with some high brix cab franc I’m getting this season.


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## Snafflebit (Aug 25, 2022)

I love Cab Franc. I know Rhone varietals are popular in your area also. There is even a Riesling vineyard named Madrone on US 50 that makes excellent wine. I have talked to two vineyard managers who have switched weak Cab Sauv vines from cordon to cane pruning with good results. Fewer cuts to the trunk means less disease pressure.


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