# Can some one help with sugar, please?



## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

We are using alla hygrometer and ready to add sugar. I can not figure out how the calculators work. I have 2 quart jars of inverted sugar made with water.

On the Alla hygrometer the reading is below meniscus , below 60. So it looks like it needs quite a bit.

How much inverted sugar is needed?


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## cpfan (Oct 31, 2011)

Sure would be nice if you provided some further details. What are you making? How much? Where are you in the process? etc etc.

Also I am GUESSING that you mean that the sg is below 1.060. That's the only 60 that I see on my alla hydrometer.

Steve


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## Julie (Oct 31, 2011)

Like Steve said please post up what you are making and where you are at in the process. Without knowing what you are doing it is hard to know if you are trying to add sugar to a must or if you are backsweetening a wine.


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

Not only new to wind but new to forums too.

Blueberry wine, very similar to the recipe posted on here.

I am on the 2nd day and need to add acid blend and pectic enzyme and need to bring up the sugar first.

The alla hygrometer is hard to read and does not show the sugar. Now I know it should have been measured first sugar first.

We would like get to 1.090


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

2.5 to 3 gallons finished


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## wjdonahue (Oct 31, 2011)

Wow..that's kinda "hot" for a fruit wine at 1.090. I usually never go above 1.070 or I start getting a burning alcoholic finish


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't know, this is our first time. I am just going by what the recipe calls for and it says bring it up to 1.090

The original recipe was for 5 gallons and we cut it in half to make 2-1/2 gallons but I don't think that would change what the SG should be.

And Steve is right it is 1.060.


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

Would like to get to 10 to 12% alcohol.


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## Julie (Oct 31, 2011)

Has this started to ferment? You should have your sugar added prior to fermentation and shoot for an sg of 1.080.

The best advice anyone can give you on here, since you are so new at this, is go to the tutorial section and get an understanding of the process of making wine.


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=151051#post151051

is the original thread, I know what to do after I get the sugar up


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## Julie (Oct 31, 2011)

I read that post, are you saying that you have not added the yeast as of yet? What did you mean by "I added the sugar and water an yeast nutrient and the SG is now right on"? 

1.080 will give you the ABV range you are looking for.


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

I am sorry, this is so confusing and I confused the issue by not understanding.
On day one I added 7.5 lbs of frozen blueberries and 4 pounds of sugar and yeast nutrient to make 2-1/2 gallons

On day 2 is says to bring the sugar up to 1.090 and it is only reading 1.060.

So what I wanted to know is how much inverted sugar to add.

Once the sugar is right I will add the acid blend and pec enzyme

And tomorrow the yeast.


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## tjbryner (Oct 31, 2011)

I would add the pectic now and give it 12 hrs. before adding sugar then check your SG it should go up some. Then add your simple syrup till you get the correct SG reading for the % you are looking for.

Just how I do it.

TJBryner


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## Julie (Oct 31, 2011)

Sammyk said:


> I am sorry, this is so confusing and I confused the issue by not understanding.
> On day one I added 7.5 lbs of frozen blueberries and 4 pounds of sugar and yeast nutrient to make 2-1/2 gallons
> 
> On day 2 is says to bring the sugar up to 1.090 and it is only reading 1.060.
> ...



You need to add the peptic enzyme and acid blend now, rule of thumb 1 cup of sugar will raise your sg .018. Add two cups of sugar and take a reading, if you are anywhere between 1.070 and 1.090 don't add anymore. If you need more add 1/2 cup at a time. And take out some of the must add the sugar to that and warm it up but do not boil until sugar is dissolved, then add it back to your must.


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

I talked to George at The Wine Maker's Toy Store on Tom's advice. Went over step by step what I had done.

He told me to add 3 cups of sugar to the must. I kept the heat on very low and constantly stirred until the sugar dissolved. Cooled it down and add it to the bucket. Stirred for 5 minutes. Tasted it and it was very sugary.

Took a reading and the hygrometer stayed the same. Called him back and while on the phone I test the hygrometer in water and it registered 1.00. So we do know that they hygrometer works.

He was stumped why it stayed the same after adding that much sugar.

So, he said to add the pectin and enzyme (which I did) and the yeast tomorrow.

Anyone have any ideas why it stayed the same? There were 4 pounds of sugar originally and then 3 more pounds today. Best guess is the there is 3 gallons in the bucket now.


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

3 more cups today not 3 more pounds.


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## SBWs (Oct 31, 2011)

*3 cups should be about right...*

To get from 1.060 to 1.090 in 2.5 gallons of must you would need to add 1.71 pounds of sugar. To get from 1.060 to 1.090 in 3 gallons of must you would need to add 2.06 pounds of sugar. 1.71 pounds equals about 3 cups so the amount George told you should have done the trick. 

Question; did you stir the sugar (simple syrup) in real good?


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

Thank you SBWs.

It is in a 3-1/2 gallon bucket so it was not touching the bottom. I know because I pushed it down a few times and it bounced back up to the same reading. I also put in the vial-like container it came in and got the same reading. With water in the vial it did read 1.00


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## Julie (Oct 31, 2011)

SammyK,

None of what you say is making any sense. First off, this is still the blueberry that you started in another thread, am I correct or is this another wine you have started? I am going by what you posted that it is the wine you posted in a prior post. In the future please keep the same subject in the same thread.

Secondly if this is still the first wine, your initial sg was 1.060 so there is only one way you can now have 1.000. The must is fermeting. How many days has it been since you initially started this wine to today?


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## Sammyk (Oct 31, 2011)

It is the same wine and was started on Friday so today is the 3rd day. I did add 2.5 teaspoons of yeast nutrient the day I started it. IF, it was fermenting, I could not see it. It did not look like it was fermenting....

When I stated the SG was right on, I was wrong. I was not reading the hygrometer right. So, I don't know what it was at the start.


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## cpfan (Oct 31, 2011)

Sammyk....

It's a hy_*d*_rometer.

From wiki


> Not to be confused with hydrometer.
> 
> A hygrometer is an instrument used for measuring the moisture content in the environmental air, or humidity.



Steve


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## tjbryner (Oct 31, 2011)

Sounds like you have a working fermentation to me. Maybe some wild yeast?


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## SBWs (Oct 31, 2011)

*Wouldn't add any more sugar!*

Sammy,

I went and read the first post. If I read right you added 4 lbs of sugar when you started and then added 3 cups yesterday. That is about 5 3/4 lbs of sugar total. If you added that much sugar to 3 gallons of plain water the S.G. would be around 1.075. That doesn't take into account any sugar in the blueberries. 

I'd say no more sugar until you figure out your hydrometer.


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## robie (Oct 31, 2011)

Sammyk said:


> Anyone have any ideas why it stayed the same?



I am a little late to this thread. Are you putting the hydrometer directly in the fermentor of must or are you putting some of the must in a tube and putting the hydrometer in that?

Make sure there are no must solids touching the hydrometer to either bouy it up (not likely) or hold it down. It is best to strain some juice and put just the juice in the tube, which came with the hydrometer. 

I know you said you stirred for 5 minutes, but it sounds to me that one of the following is the problem:
1, The sugar is not totally dissolved or the simple syrup is not mixed into the must very well. The simple syrup will not mix well on its own; it has to be stirred in pretty vigorously. Stir the fire out of the must!!! Check SG again.
2, The hydrometer is not totally free to move up and down in the sample. If in a tube, it could be clinging to the side of the tube. if in a tube, make sure the hydrometer is centered in the tube. Give it a spin and make sure it does not hang on the side.


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## Sammyk (Nov 1, 2011)

No more sugar will be added because it is very sweet to the taste. No grainy, sugar particles were tasted. I did the hydrometer (Alla) reading both ways, in must and in the tube, with the same results. The first sugar was not totally inverted, the 2nd 3 cups were heated (not boiled) in the must.

Might be wild yeast though I did not see any fermentation taking place.

Going to add the yeast in about 12 hours and will hydrate it first as per package instructions.

Being a "cook" for 45 years does not mean you can find a recipe on the Internet, and it does not mean you can follow directions for a recipe and not know all of the basics of wine making. A found recipe does not tell you the basics! Now I wished I had found the forum first. 

One thing for sure, it has been a great learning experience.


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## tjbryner (Nov 1, 2011)

What was your SG this time? 

The few times I left my wines go on wild yeast the were very slow getting going, The only way you could tell was to check the SG. 

I would check your SG again before pitching the yeast to see if it has changed at all.


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## Sammyk (Nov 1, 2011)

It is still reading the same after adding the pectin and enzyme..........


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## greyday (Nov 4, 2011)

Welcome to the forum! First batches should always be the best you can make them, but mostly experiments (and, of course, fun). I'm about to dump my first batch ever, I was bulk aging but had no idea what I was doing, and the carboy is half lees, the wine has little color, and it smells a bit like, well, it smells bad. I didn't take any SG readings as I didn't know, I just sort of played and learned; all my other batches are doing quite nicely, and I credit that experiment (and this forum) with it. So while you obviously want to get it right and not waste the fruit, don't have your heart set on it being perfect, you'll perfect your own method as you go (it's not an exact science, winemaking).

As for your problem--I would likely take a SMALL amount of the must, maybe a measuring cup's worth, stick my hydrometer in it, and continue adding sugar until the readings changed. If this worked, I'd consider continuing to sweeten. If not, then I wouldn't.

It's frowned upon, but with heartier yeasts and a record of your hydrometer readings you CAN add sugar during fermentation, you just have to do it carefully. Best to sort it out BEFORE pitching the yeast, as you can still add fruit and water to dilute beforehand, or go for a strong yeast and a high alcohol concentrate with the volume you have. 

There are a few of us around here who actually aim for the higher ABVs; I've made two batches of marionberry, the first one I did with the standard recipe and ended up around 12%, my current one is hovering around 16%. I like both of them, neither tastes too weak or strong, but friends have had issue with each for their own personal reasons. So on that level, don't be overly concerned with the current sweetness level, but definitely figure out what's up with the hydrometer readings before adding more (can you borrow or buy a second hydrometer? When things are odd in my batches I tend to test with two different ones).

Also, punch the fruit down, even crush it against the bottom of the primary, give it a good 3-5 minutes of stirring, then test the must in the hydrometer tube or a separate container (like a pint glass) and see how it's looking. 3lbs of sugar should have had SOME effect unless it's already fermenting, so it seems to me that, even though you tested your hydrometer in water, something could be off with it.

And a quick question--what temperature is the room you're currently keeping the must in? And did you add campden tablets at the beginning?


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## Sammyk (Nov 4, 2011)

We did add 96 oz of fruit concentrate two days go. It is cooking along now that I realized I added too much sugar and the reading was 1.160. I did not think about the sugar in the 2 cans for Welch's grape juice I added (it was optional in the recipe).

It is around 70 in the kitchen where I have them.

No I did not add any campden.

The reading was 1.060 yesterday. The recipe said not to stir down into the bottom so I have only been stirring the top few inches.

And now I am not sure when to remove the fruit or when to rack? Should I add campden and how much for 6 gallons?


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## greyday (Nov 4, 2011)

1.160 will either be very sweet or very strong; for blueberry, I'm not convinced either is a bad thing!

You add Campden at the beginning (to, among other things, prevent wild yeast from fermenting) and at the end of fermentation, so you're fine right now. When you are done syphoning into the secondary, crush 1 campden tablet per gallon, so for 6 gallons use 6 tablets. You'll want to do this again every 4 months (if you bulk age that long) and just before bottling. Also, with all the irregularities with the SG, I'd suggest adding potassium sorbate when you rack to your secondary as well (you add after adding campden); but if you ferment to dry (which I also suggest, as it's going to end up sweet no matter what you do) it probably won't be necessary, as you'll end up with a wine that is 18%+ (the sg calculator says over 21% if fermentation stops at 1.00), and no new fermentation is likely to develop in that much alcohol. Hopefully you used a VERY hearty yeast or fermentation will likely stop around 1.04-1.06. Which isn't bad if you like your wines sweet...

For racking, with that high an SG I suggest racking when all signs of fermentation cease. If it seems to have ground to a halt, and your SG is in the 1.04 range, taste it and see if it's not overbearingly sweet; at that point you can likely rack or, if you are using some really strong yeast, let it ferment further. I highly doubt you'll reach the general sweet-spot target for blueberry wine (1.000, according to my winemaker's bible), as that would be almost 22%, and I highly doubt your yeast will live that long.

As for when to remove the fruit, that's really up to you, it's a matter of personal preference. It can be removed any time after fermentation starts to slow. If your fruit is jam-bagged and there is enough flavor in the must alone, removing it does prevent you having to punch it down twice a day to avoid infection, but the longer it's in the must the more opportunity for it to add flavor and body to your wine. I usually remove mine just before racking to a secondary unless the wine has substantial body. I also usually squeeze out as much as I can from it, then let the bucket sit for another 10-12 hours (to let more of the solids fall) before syphoning.


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## greyday (Nov 4, 2011)

Also, two options for if it ends up too sweet: 1) You can fortify it and make a port-like wine, they're meant to be strong and sweet, and if you use brandy you can dilute the sweetness while not removing much body at all. 2) you can dilute with an extremely dry wine. Both of these options are expensive, of course.

If there's enough flavor (note: not JUST sweetness), diluting with water is fine, as it will bring down both the ABV and the SG. But be warned that you may then end up wanting to add a no sugar added f-pack (harder because blueberries are naturally sweet), and it will get complicated getting it to somewhere that you're happy, but it CAN work. Important lesson from all of this is, as was previously stated I believe by Julie, it's always easier to add sugar later than to try to take it out.

Good luck, though! Sounds like, at the very least, you'll end up with a pretty strong dessert wine...


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## Sammyk (Nov 4, 2011)

It wound up too sweet because I added 2 cans off Welch's frozen grape juice as per the recipe and I did not think about the sugar in the concentrate. So we added 96 oz of blueberry concentrate 2 days ago.

The SG is 1.060 this morning. The recipe does not say when to remove the fruit. I did not add campden in the beginning. When should I add that?


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## greyday (Nov 4, 2011)

Again--remove fruit whenever you feel like it (I wrote a longer first response on the previous page that you might have missed since we moved on to page 4; check the end of page 3 if you haven't already). I usually leave it until fermentation slows, but if you're racking to storage and not to a secondary, definitely a couple days before racking, and probably a day or two before stopping fermentation/adding backsweetening/fining, to allow all the fruit bits time to settle, as removing the fruit will definitely disrupt the lees and you'll want to give it time to settle back down. Also, once you add Campden and any other fining agents/F-pack/etc, give it at least a day to settle before racking, and degas in the secondary, not in the primary.

Campden should, at this point, be added when you want to stop fermentation, and then every four months (if bulk aging a long time) and one last time before bottling. If you rack for less than four months, then just do it before racking and before bottling and you'll be fine!


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## Sammyk (Nov 5, 2011)

Today 

Peach is 1.070, was 1.080 5 days ago. Should it be dropping faster then that? It is still fizzing.

Blueberry is 1.050 and actively fermenting.

Both still have the fruit in the bucket.


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## tjbryner (Nov 5, 2011)

Sammyk said:


> Today
> 
> Peach is 1.070, was 1.080 5 days ago. Should it be dropping faster then that? It is still fizzing.
> 
> ...



What is the temperature?
What yeast?
There are a lot of variables to the questions you ask, and not much information given. The more we know the better we can help.


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## Sammyk (Nov 5, 2011)

Both used Lalvin. Temperature is 68 to 70


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