# Sanitizing solution confusion



## Brock (Oct 18, 2009)

I am preparing to make 1 gallon of a sanitizer to use to sanitize my equipment prior to each use, and have some confusion on 2 different methods.

First - Metabisulphite - says to use 12.5 tsp per gallon of water. 

Sounds like, what is confusing about that.

Second - potassium bisulfite - says to use 1 tsp per gallon of water.

Why is 1 using so much more chemical than the other and both say they are excellent sanitizers for equipment. 

Please help me understand if at all possible.


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## Tom (Oct 18, 2009)

WELCOME ! 

Potassium Metabisulfite is the most common. Use 3 tablespoons for 1 gallon.
After using, store it in a small carboy, bucket or gallon jug. I will last for months.
Use and return it back. Suggestion is to add some to a spray bottle and then you can spray what you want sanitized. Simple and handy way.
Hope this helps....


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## Brock (Oct 18, 2009)

*Follow up*

I have a container of Potassium Bisulfite and no potassium metabisulphite. Since it seems your saying to use less of the metabisulphite than what the instructions say, which makes sense to not have to rinse after spraying. 

Do you know at all why is there such a variance dilutions of both compounds. Since I currently only have bisulfite would it hurt my wine or anything to increase the amount of chemical used, to make sure I have a proper and strong enough sanitizer.

Thanks


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## Brock (Nov 1, 2009)

*difference I have found*

I have know found and calculated the chemical compounds. Potassium Metabilsulphite when added to water becomes potassium bisulfite, therefore the potassium bisulphite is actually via chemical strength is the more pure form and is stronger ie takes less to produce same result as Metabisulphite. 

To keep things simple in future since everyone seems to use metabisulphite I am gonna stick with it.

Thanks for help


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## Wade E (Nov 1, 2009)

You have hit the nail on the head and I never noticed this thread. Also, some manufacturers make different strengths of a chemical compared to other manufacturers increasing this confusion. Just make sure when sanitizing to use the correct strength cause there is equipment sanitizing and then there is the ratio used for adding to wine.


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## cpfan (Nov 1, 2009)

Metabisulfite (both sodium and potassium, although usually potassium) have three uses in winemaking. All are different dosage. I have NEVER seen a k-meta label that explains the three dosages. I seem to recall one that showed two in French, but only one in English.

Uses...

1) Sanitation - 50g per 4 litres 

2) pre-fermentation shock - not sure of dosage

3) post-fermentation preservative - 1/4 tsp per 23 litres (6 US gallons) - or measure free SO2 and adjust as required

All subject to personal preference.

Steve


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## Wade E (Nov 1, 2009)

Im pretty sure the ratio for #2 is the same as #3 and thats why they dont include it. Thats why you add 1 tablet per gallon in the beginning or at the end of fermentation with campden.


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## dderemiah (Nov 4, 2009)

Be careful not to inhale the fumes (at the sanitizer level there seems to be a large amount of fumes). It burns! I think the reaction when you breath it is making sulfuric acid in your lungs if my high school chemistry is right. Tiny but still not good for you.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 5, 2009)

*More questions...*

I'm struggling with this issue myself.
I found a supplier offering Potassium Metabisulfite in a strength that require 1 tbsp per gallon for sanitizing, and 1/8 tsp per gallon as a must additive.
Campden tablets are Potassium Metabisulfite, also. I notice ALL instructions say to crush up the tablets before dissolving.
Question is: why would Campden tablets be used in preference to the powder? Convenience? Safety in handling (re: comment above about inhaling dust)?


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 5, 2009)

I dont use Campden, I use powder and mix it. Who want to spend time crushing up tablets? not me


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2009)

Old Philosopher said:


> Question is: why would Campden tablets be used in preference to the powder? Convenience? Safety in handling (re: comment above about inhaling dust)?



I use K-meta powder rather than campden tablets. When I ran a store, old-time winemakers who were used to campden tablets preferred the tablets (I think some didn't believe me that it was actually K-meta). Other folks used campden because a lot of the old recipe books specify it.

And i think that crushing campden is more likely to result in dust than using the already powdered stuff.

Steve


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## arcticsid (Nov 5, 2009)

CP, I use K Meta powder. Because of my suggestion, my LHBS is now carrying this in bulk, instead of the small 2 oz. packs which can get to be spendy while using it to sanitize eguipment etc.

Of course they keep this in a bucket with a lil scoop. Now I am concerned that some people may be exposed to this dust while scooping what they want to purchase.

I am wondering if they should put some sort of a disclaimer on this bucket. Providing masks may seem a lil overkill. I am wondering if I shouldn't suggest they weigh it out themselves into ziploc bags and sell their amounts already in the bag.

This isn't something I considered when I suggested they offer bulk quanities, they buy it in a cardboard box, with a plastic bag liner.

I am concerned about this for not only any liability they may face, but for the safety of anyone scooping into this bucket.

Please advise.

Troy


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2009)

Troy:

Is there any kind of warning on the original cardboard box???

When I ran an FoP/LHBS, I did not repackage any chemicals. Early on, I did not have a scale. But also, I was busy making kits for others. Even if I did repackage, I would not have done K-meta. That stuff STINKS. Plus it bothers my throat. Anyone with asthma type problems should avoid at all costs.

I did sell the 2 oz (50g) packages, but also sold the 250g/500g, and even 1 kg packages.

Steve


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 5, 2009)

I also dont like the dust or breathing the fumes that why my spray bottle is full of 99% alcohol I get from Kogers. It is the only place I can get 99%


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## Wade E (Nov 5, 2009)

I use powder myself and dont know why anyone would buy tablets once they strat making wine in succession. I understand when you get started and are making small batches and just dont want to play around with powder or scales but once you start making more wine you are just throwing money down the drain with the tablets. I also use NA Meta. as its cheaper and is stronger for sanitizing. I also use a corkidor with a 1 gallon jug of k-meta in there which keeps the corks sanitized well but you better open that bucket outside or you will be knocked on your ***!


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2009)

Wade E said:


> you better open that bucket outside or you will be knocked on your ***!



Thanks for that comment Wade. I have wondered about that from time-to-time.

This might be a good time to mention that there are other choices for sanitizing. K-meta bothers me, so when I started making beer, and learned that K-meta was not recommended for beer (not strong enuff), I switched to iodophor for wine & beer.

Steve


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## Wade E (Nov 5, 2009)

I like the Starsan even better as you could use it on plastic buckets without it staining if you leave it in too long. Iodophor is a good product but it stains even worse then red wine.


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## cpfan (Nov 5, 2009)

Well StarSan is not readily available in Canada. I haven't had a lot of problems with iodophor staining. It did stain my plastic hoses when I ran an FoP. But they were hanging to dry over the sink where I sprayed a LOT of iodophor, and I didn't bother to rinse it off hoses that weren't going to be used immediately. The plastic rods from an auto-siphon (which were attached to those hoses) did not stain. I don't believe that the primaries that I was using stained either, but I sanitize immediately prior to use, so no sitting around with iodophor in them.

Steve


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## Wade E (Nov 5, 2009)

They are both great products. I like Starsan again as it will last a while stored even after mixing like k-meta solutio does But I also have Iodophor in my basement also. As far as sanitizing time goes they are pretty much equivalent as Starsan works in 60 seconds and Iodophor is 90 seconds and both are no rinse.


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## hector (Nov 7, 2009)

mmadmikes1 said:


> I dont use Campden, I use powder and mix it. Who want to spend time crushing up tablets? not me



I'm going to use the powder too as follows :

1% solution ( 10 Gramms dissolved in 1 liter water ) as Sanitizer 

and

10% solution ( 100 Gramms dissolved in 1 liter water ) as Preservative . 

How do you make your Sanitizer and Preservative ?

Hector


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## arcticsid (Nov 7, 2009)

I don't understand the weights/ or ppm measures. But 1/4 tsp is ehnough for 6 gallons of wine in the primary. For sanitizing I use 3 TBLS per gallon of water.

Can't comment on any of the other products out there, I have only used K meta.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

*H2o2*

Has hydrogen peroxide (food grade) ever been used as a sanitizer? If not, why not? It's used extensively in hospitals to sanitize surfaces and equipment.


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## St Allie (Nov 7, 2009)

Well you can use bleach as well.. thing is... it needs to be really well rinsed off with boiled/boiling water, or it'll taint your wine.

( be careful to warm glass carboys well, before using boiling water, or it may crack the glass)

Allie


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

St Allie said:


> Well you can use bleach as well.. thing is... it needs to be really well rinsed off with boiled/boiling water, or it'll taint your wine.
> 
> ( be careful to warm glass carboys well, before using boiling water, or it may crack the glass)
> 
> Allie


Is that anything like pouring hot grease down the toilet? :<


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## arcticsid (Nov 7, 2009)

Oh...O.P., just when I was begining to think you might be one of the brilliant ones amongst us!!!!!LOL

Troy


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> Oh...O.P., just when I was begining to think you might be one of the brilliant ones amongst us!!!!!LOL
> 
> Troy


I was the brilliant one who got to replace the toilet after my wife pulled that stunt!


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## bob1 (Nov 7, 2009)

Peroxzide is used for a case of over doseing your wine with sulphate. It is used to get SO2 levels down if you over do it or have an accident and drop to much in.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

bob1 said:


> Peroxzide is used for a case of over doseing your wine with sulphate. It is used to get SO2 levels down if you over do it or have an accident and drop to much in.


Yeah, it's an oxidizer, and works on some microbes by over dosing them. It's not a disinfectant, per se.


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## cpfan (Nov 7, 2009)

Old Philosopher said:


> Has hydrogen peroxide (food grade) ever been used as a sanitizer? If not, why not? It's used extensively in hospitals to sanitize surfaces and equipment.



Yes. and it's even used by beer folks since the residue is said to be fermentable (I think I got that right).

When I ran an FoP and didn't want to use K-meta as a sanitizer, and a couple of customers were concerned about iodine, I used hydrogen peroxide.

Steve


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## Wade E (Nov 7, 2009)

Ive heard of this but dont know enough about this to try or recommend anyone doing so. I tried looking it up but found no links t a good understanding of it. Do you know of a good link to this info. There also has to be a con to this as peroxide is also a poison!


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Ive heard of this but dont know enough about this to try or recommend anyone doing so. I tried looking it up but found no links t a good understanding of it. Do you know of a good link to this info. There also has to be a con to this as peroxide is also a poison!


When I was looking for non-toxic, non-chemical treatments for our hot tub, we chose H2O2. Even at that time, the spa companies were saying it was _not_ a sanitizer. We added a mechanical sanitizer, but that's another story.

Apparently, the spa guys were ignorant, or just wanted to sell another product, because H2O2 is a very effective sanitizer, by means of its oxidation properties.
Here's one quick link:
http://www.greenlivingtips.com/articles/64/1/Hydrogen-peroxide-tips.html

And a quote from that site:


> Most of the debate about chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite) stems from its ability to form more toxic byproducts such as dioxin, furans and other organochlorines when reacting with other elements.
> 
> Hydrogen Peroxide on the other hand, is simply water with an extra oxygen molecule (H2O2) and breaks down into oxygen and water. It's certainly kinder on the environment. H2O2 is produced by both animal and plant cells and is formed naturally in the environment by sunlight acting on water.
> 
> ...



Here's another link:
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4606163_hydrogen-peroxide-kill-bacteria.html

In part....


> How Hydrogen Peroxide Kills Bacteria
> Hydrogen peroxide is always in a dark-brown bottle as light decreases its potency. Hydrogen peroxide is created from oxygen and hydrogen molecules. It is the oxygen responsible for the killing of germs. When hydrogen peroxide is applied to a surface, it reacts quickly and then breaks down into water hydrogen. At the same time, free oxygen radicals are released; these create oxidation, a chemical process in which oxygen combines with another substance to break down or change the function of the molecules. Through oxidation, the bacteria decomposes, rendering it harmless



Since it neutralizes sulfites, it's probably not something to add to a must, as it will also add oxygen. But for equipment sanitizing, it sounds perfectly effective, and the only bi-products are hydrogen and water.


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## arcticsid (Nov 7, 2009)

O.P. how much wine were planning on making in that hot tub?
LOL


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> O.P. how much wine were planning on making in that hot tub?
> LOL


 Whassa matter? You never heard of a REAL Roman bath? 

Sounded like I was off-track, but my point was that 1/2 cup of H2O2 per week, replaced $30 worth of "recommended" chemicals.


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## Wade E (Nov 7, 2009)

Ok but Ive heard of it being used as you said to reduce the S02 levels in wine, everything Ive read says not to swallow so is there a way to precipitate it out or something. What rate would it be used at to do so?


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Ok but Ive heard of it being used as you said to reduce the S02 levels in wine, everything Ive read says not to swallow so is there a way to precipitate it out or something. What rate would it be used at to do so?


I'll try to find something more specific on toxicity, but H2O2 is naturally produced by the body to begin with. 
The thing is, H2O2 breaks down rapidly into H and O. Once it has oxidized, there are no residual compounds left to "poison" you. Food Grade H2O2 is usually sold in 30% or 35% solutions. There are ample warnings not to use it full strength. When diluted, there is little risk. Many people who swear by drinking it as an oxidant, are still alive. The AMA has said there is no clinical proof that it does any good, or bad, and the FDA (insert your own opinion here) has warned it might cause stomach problems. Some of this information is in the links I provided.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

Maybe this will shed more light on it:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/Mhmi/mmg174.html



> Ingestion
> If ingested, solutions of hydrogen peroxide up to concentrations of 9% are generally nontoxic; however, even a 3% solution is mildly irritating to mucosal tissue and may cause vomiting and diarrhea. Ingestion of industrial-strength solutions (=10%) causes systemic toxicity and has been associated with fatalities


http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-hydrogen-peroxide.htm



> Is hydrogen peroxide used for drinking water disinfection?
> 
> In the 1950's, hydrogen peroxide was first used for drinking water disinfection in Eastern Europe. It is known for its high oxidative and biocidal efficiency. Hydrogen peroxide has not been used often for drinking water disinfection, but it's popularity seems to increase. It is often used combined with ozone, silver or UV.



A disinfectant solution of H2O2 is a 50/50 dilution of 3% H2O2 in water. That's about a 1.5% solution. I still can't find anything on the dilution for reducing SO2.


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## Wade E (Nov 7, 2009)

Okay I pulled this up and still would stay away. 
"Adding Hydrogen Peroxide will oxidise sulfites in wine. So theoretically if you are allergic to sulfites then yes it would work. However, I would be very careful with this because the reaction is H2O2 + SO2 which forms H2SO4 (AKA Sulfuric Acid). About 1ml in a 750ml bottle should be sufficient... but I don't recommend you do it without knowing how. Maybe just look for a low sulfite wine

p.s. when i say 1ml i mean 1ml of 3% peroxide okay" 
I also pulled this up which contradicts wht the other guy said!

"	
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Wine - cabernet
Expert: Tim - 11/16/2005

Question
I made a batch of cab. in nov 2004 from juice i bought. It was a kit that makes 6 gallons . I may have used a little to much sodium medabisulfite in the sterilising process of the equiptment. The wine has the same smell. It tases good but the bouquet has that sodium smell. can i add something to get fid of this?

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Answer
Anthony,

Try a little Hydrogen Peroxide. Set up a benchtop trial; 1 ml peroxide into 100 mls wine, then 2 mls into 100 mls wine,...and so on) the peroxide binds free SO2, and breaks down into CO2 and H2O. This is not legal commercially, but works for home wine, and it is harmless. Measure carefully though, too much peroxide, and you will end up with too much acetaldehyde, which will spoil the wine"


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 7, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Ok but Ive heard of it being used as you said to reduce the S02 levels in wine, everything Ive read says not to swallow so is there a way to precipitate it out or something. What rate would it be used at to do so?


This is an e-book, so I couldn't cut and paste:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zf...resnum=1&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Modern winemaking By Philip Jackisch

He says, ".7ml H2O2 (3%) per gallon" if your wine is at 10 ppm SO2.


This is a Power Point Presentation about SO2.
The H2O2 reference is on page 39, starts on page 38.

http://www.makewine.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/feb-2007-presentation.ppt

I don't know...all this is way beyond where I am with wine making. I was just trying to find out if it would work for equipment.


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## Wade E (Nov 7, 2009)

Thats more like what I was looking for. Ive heard of it a few times and have never needed it this info cause Im very careful in all my additions but its always good to know.


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## Old Philosopher (Dec 21, 2009)

*Storing/using k-meta*



Tom said:


> WELCOME !
> 
> Potassium Metabisulfite is the most common. Use 3 tablespoons for 1 gallon.
> After using, store it in a small carboy, bucket or gallon jug. I will last for months.
> ...


I finally found where I'd read this before. With a solution stored in a 1 gallon jug, used and returned to the jug, how often is too often? In other words, how often would you want to make up a new "stock" solution, if you were re-introducing "used" sanitizer back into the jug?


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## Tom (Dec 21, 2009)

If you open the carboy/bucket and you take a "sniff" and it takes your breath away then its still OK.. LOL !
When it gets real "cloudy" then toss it


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## Wine&Ale (Dec 23, 2009)

So did I read correctly early on in this thread? Starsan is ok to use for sanitizing wine making equipment?


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## arcticsid (Dec 23, 2009)

Sorry I cant help you on that one Wine(do you have a first name?) Others have used Starsan and I will let them comment on its usage.

My LHBS is selling bulk Kmeta( as per my suggestion) for $2.99/lb. Thats alot of chemical. I personally still like to go with the 3 TBLS per gallon, but to reuse it seems a little extreme. The stuff isn't that expensive. it is indeed pretty "powerful" and will indeed take your breath away.

Keep in mind Wine. Cleaning and sanitizing are two completely different things. As far as anitizing goes, until I am sold on something different, I am going with the K meta. If you don't like the smell or the fumes, than don't breath it!! This sanitizing discussion will never end...you may as well ask about using plastic to ferment or age your wine. as long as these discussions live, we will always have something to talk about.

I will say one thing however, many in here and other places have said that the "non chlorinated" Oxi Clean, or similar powdered oxegen products work very nice for a cleaner. But, when it comes to sanitizing, the debate goes on. CP uses an iodine based something for a sanitizer, i think it is mentioned somewhere earlier on in this thread.


How much of a chance are you wiling to take after you spent all that money and time on a nice kit?


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## Runningwolf (Dec 23, 2009)

Wine&Ale said:


> So did I read correctly early on in this thread? Starsan is ok to use for sanitizing wine making equipment?



Yes Starsan is fine for sanitizing. You still need to use a cleanser first.


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## Wine&Ale (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks Guys. I will have to say that I find Oxy Clean free or Sun oxygenated cleaner to work great on my beer making equipment so +1 on that! Glad to hear there is no problem with Starsan as I have great luck with that for beer making as well so that will make life a little simpler. arcticsid, I fixed my sig line to reflect my name or nickname as it were, sorry about that.

Hmm, well I thought I fixed my sig line that is? Any way Al is whatch ya can call me if you like.


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## arcticsid (Dec 23, 2009)

Al, even if thats not your real name LOL, you arent required to say so or name your location in here. but in alot of aspects its nice to know where you are.

So many people in here anymore it gets hard to keep track of whose who. because we are all friends, at least I hpe so, it gets really old having to refer to someone by their "username". keep your "username" to what ever you like but I would rather refer to you as Al than "hey "MDFR GH Brewer"

Nice to have you on board all the same I hope we can all learn and share together!!

Troy


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## Wine&Ale (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks for the welcome Troy. Al is actually a a shortened version of my first name, it's as good as any of the names that I answer to.....lol I must say that so far this seems like one of the friendliest forums that I have checked out and everyone seems quite helpful so I can see why it's membership is growing.


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## cbw (Dec 23, 2009)

With a k-meta solution, I too use the "sniff" test ... if it makes me cough, the k-meta solution is good to go. Interestingly enough, k-meta sanitizing strength solution lasts longer in my spray bottle than in a 1 gallon jug. One must be more porous than the other.

I also keep a 2 gallon bucket (with an o-ring snap lid) of Star San sanitizing strength mixture in our wine making area to give things a quick soak. I use litmus paper to measure the acid level. Seems I listened to a recording from the Star San inventor who said if the ph is greater than 3.0, the solution is still good to go. A good source for the food-safe, o-ring lid buckets is your local bakery.

We use both k-meta and Star San


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## Dugger (Dec 23, 2009)

Some time ago I switched from Sodium Meta to OxySan for sanitizing - it is an oxygen based no rinse product and is non toxic; however, it's not reusable and loses its effectiveness after 12 hours so I do use more of it in the long run. I also switched from pink cleaner ( chlorine based) to a product called EcoLox, which is also environmentally friendly, making it easier on the septic tank system and also easier to breathe in my confined wine making area.
.. Doug


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## Wade E (Dec 23, 2009)

Star san if a great sanitizer but is also a little high priced to be using for wine. I use it only for beer cuse sulfites and beer dont go well together especially if you are goig to bottle carb. Sulfite is way cheaper and also very good sanitizer. They both are great in the fact that they can be stored for long peroids of time unlike Iodophor which is only good for around 12 hours.


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## MarineDoc (Jan 5, 2010)

Brock said:


> I am preparing to make 1 gallon of a sanitizer to use to sanitize my equipment prior to each use, and have some confusion on 2 different methods.
> 
> First - Metabisulphite - says to use 12.5 tsp per gallon of water.
> 
> ...



*****************************************************

I too am confused about cleaning vs sanitizing. 
On the label it says 
"Description: This compound is used to sanitize winemaking equipment. It cleans with active oxygen, and does not contain chlorine or bisulfite. Effectively removes fermentation residues.

Use: *Dissolve one tablespoon of B-Brite powder in one gallon of water to create a sanitizing solution. Sanitize winemaking equipment for at least one minute, then rinse with clear tap water. Discard solution after use.*

*******************************************************
Then from the same supplier, on the Potassium Metabisulfite page is goes on to say:
"Description: Potassium Metabisulfite is added to wine to inhibit bacteria and yeast growth, as well as slow down oxidation. It may leave an unpleasant aftertaste in wine if the dose is too high. This chemical is also used in a water solution as an antiseptic rinse to sanitize equipment. It is identical to, but better than, Sodium Metabisulfite, because it does not add sodium to one's diet.

CAUTION: Some people, particularly asthmatics, can have a severe allergic reaction to this substance.

Use: For wine: 1/8 teaspoon (1 gram) of powder per gallon of wine provides 150 ppm free SO2. A little bit goes a long way, so be careful! Always test the free S02 content of your wine (using Titrets and Titret holder) to determine the proper amount to add. Generally speaking, the target free SO2 for red wines is 20-30 ppm and 25-40 ppm for white wines. The exact target depends upon the pH of the wine."

*For sanitizing solution: Dissolve 1 to 2 oz. (2 to 4 tablespoons) Potassium Metabisulfite powder in one gallon of water."
*
I guess my questions are:
1. Is B-Brite alone enough to clean and sanitize my equipment? 
2.Should I be using both products to clean and sanitize.
3.What IS the best method to clean and sanitize?

Information is confusing for a newbie.

Thanks


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## rawlus (Jan 5, 2010)

MarineDoc said:


> *****************************************************
> 
> I guess my questions are:
> 1. Is B-Brite alone enough to clean and sanitize my equipment?
> ...



many of the oxygen-type cleaners hint that they also sanitize to some degree but do not get into specifics because in order to officially be a sanitizer they need to be certified as such which requires registration and lab trials, etc. I suspect many of these would do alright at sanitizing given the correct strength and contact time but we don't readily know these so it's easier to stay away from these products as sanitizers and just use a second product for that duty.

what these primarily do however is Clean, b-brite, one-step, pbw, etc. all use similar components to clean. oxygen, peroxide, or something similar with their own proprietary surfactants and other additives.

sanitizers like the iodine-based liquids, or k-meta/sodium-meta, etc are not effective cleaners but can be more effective sanitizers than the oxygen cleaners because their use as a sanitizer is well known and prescribed with measurements and contact time for efficacy.

procedure depends on what you're cleaning - containers or tools/instruments.

i clean all physical visible dirt or crud off everything with soap and water and rinse well after each use. on a big activity day like starting wine or racking or bottling, i will soak everything in PBW or One-step to fully clean, then depending on my needs will make up a batch of k-meta sanitizer to dip items to sanitize or more often, will put the solution of k-meta+citric acid into a household spray bottle and spray things before using them in wine. (this solution will keep for a good amount of time in a spray bottle so there's less waste.) spray the hydrometer or spoon or mix-stir or test cylinder... for hoses and tubing i will have clean hoses because i already cleaned them fully after my last use, so i'll run PBW or One-Step through them for a bit, drain and then run some k-meta solution through them and drain. i'll spray the outside of the tubing with k-meta or soak the entire hose in k-meta solution depending on what i have available. typically the spray bottle is most convenient.

if you do a good job of keeping your equipment clean after use, then the cleaning right before the next use can go pretty quickly with much of the focus simply on sanitization.

empty carboys i spray a bit of k-meta soluition into them and bung them with a solid stopper. that little bit of k-meta gassifies and keeps mold or other bacterial activity from occurring while the carboy is in storage. you only need a little bit of solution to do this. one or two sprays of the sprayer. next use i rinse out.

what can get confusing is that k-meta is used as both a wine preservative in a low-strength solution and as a sanitizer in a much higher-strength solution.

follow the directions on the sanitizers - sanitizing is the last step before wine contact and it is okay to drip dry the items before touching the wine but don;t rinse as that will defeat the purpose of sanitizing in the first place - unless you are rinsing with a sterile liquid like cooled boiled water.

think of sanitizing somewhere between clean and sterile. sterile is not really attainable in practice, but we want something more than visibly clean, we want it visibly clean and also sanitized which means the bulk of microorganisms have been dealt with.

the k-meta plays an additional role as trace amounts remaining in carboys or on tools and tubing during rackings and bottlings will reduce the effects of oxygen exposure during these activities.


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## Old Philosopher (Jan 5, 2010)

After a lot of reading, and asking questions, I went with K-Meta.
The package I got said, "1/8 tsp per 6 gallons of wine as a stabilizer; 3 TBS per gallon of water as a sanitizer"
I appreciated the simple directions, and not a lot of techno-babble.


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## cpfan (Jan 5, 2010)

Old Philosopher said:


> After a lot of reading, and asking questions, I went with K-Meta.
> The package I got said, "1/8 tsp per 6 gallons of wine as a stabilizer; 3 TBS per gallon of water as a sanitizer"
> I appreciated the simple directions, and not a lot of techno-babble.


OP:

Simple instructions...yes.

Correct...no. K-meta is not a stabilizer. It should be used in conjunction with potassium sorbate (the real stabilizer).

Omitted...K-meta is an anti-oxidant.

Steve


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## bob1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Keep it simple buy Potassium Metabisulfite by the pound and just drop 2 or 3 TBL spoon in a gallon of water and if you like a tblspoon of citric acid. It is also easier to measure a 1/4 teaspoon of Potassium Metabisulfite than crushing 5 campten tabs. Also keep some handy in a spray bottle. If your hydrometer and wine thief come in a container that is sealable pour some in it and store them that way, after a good rinse of course, and they will always be ready and sanatized. You can do same with spoon 1 1/2" PVC and 2 end caps.


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## MarineDoc (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks Ol Wise One.
You have finally cleared the mud from the waters. I now have a much better understanding of which product to use for what.
One addition question, what is "PBW"?
Thanks again. This info was a great help.


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## cbw (Jan 5, 2010)

bob>>If your hydrometer and wine thief come in a container that is sealable pour some

Ah Bob ... k-meta in sanitizing solution quantities loses its effectiveness over time (which varies in container, etc) ... to err on the safe side, I wouldn't just store my equipment in solution and consider it good to go.

I store my carboys and fermenters with a little k-meta is them ... and have to periodically change out the solution ... to keep the bugs, mold etc out of them ... but to really consider them "sanitized," I mix up fresh solution for everything.


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## jmc1590 (Jan 5, 2010)

PBW: Powdered Brewery wash. Have heard many good things, but I'm still too new at this to form an opinion.


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## whiner (Jan 5, 2010)

How did they sanitize everything 2500 years ago?!


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## Wade E (Jan 5, 2010)

K-meta will hold its strenght for quite some time esoecially if you use citric acid at the same ratio of kmeta with it. Ive had gallon jugs with lids for well over 4 months that were still very strong. The more headspace there is in a vessel the fatser it will lose power though due to exposure. DStar san will last quite awhile also. Iodophor losses its ability after 12 hours. Dont know much about Brewey wash though.


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## rawlus (Jan 6, 2010)

PBW is only a cleaner, not a sanitizer. just to be clear.


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## cbw (Jan 6, 2010)

wade>Star san will last quite awhile

I use litmus paper to measure the PH of my Star San. If it's in the range of 3, it's still sanitizing strength. How long Star San stays at sanitizing strength varies from container to container to spray bottle, etc.


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## Ecolox (May 19, 2017)

You should look into Ecolox natural sanitizers, they are about 100 times more efficient than bleach, but so safe that if ingested it will cause no harm to humans.
Ecolox 240 is an in-situ system that will produce a very strong sanitizer made by only water, table salt and electricity.


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## Scooter68 (May 19, 2017)

Old Philosopher said:


> I'm struggling with this issue myself.
> I found a supplier offering Potassium Metabisulfite in a strength that require 1 tbsp per gallon for sanitizing, and 1/8 tsp per gallon as a must additive.
> Campden tablets are Potassium Metabisulfite, also. I notice ALL instructions say to crush up the tablets before dissolving.
> Question is: why would Campden tablets be used in preference to the powder? Convenience? Safety in handling (re: comment above about inhaling dust)?



*Tablets are used for one reason - Simplicity.* For small batches measuring the correct amount of powered k-meta would be very difficult without a digital scale and even then - it takes a little time. (_ECKraus directions for Potasium Bisulfate calls for 1/16 tsp for one gallon to pre-treat before fermentation)* _ Tablets are pre-measured and most beginners, like myself with 2 years of wine making, find the tablets one less measurement to keep straight (Teaspoon or tablespoon?). Seems like every month someone is asking for help when they overdose their batch with something. 

So - as long as you are making larger batches or don't mind the time to measure with a scale, the powder K-Metabisulfate or K-bisulfate means just one product for all 3 uses.

Here are the directions on the ECKraus site: 


_ABOUT THIS PRODUCT: (PS150) *Potassium Bisulfite* is a granulated powder that release sulfur dioxide when dissolved in a liquid. It is added in small doses directly to fresh juices 24 hour before adding yeast. This is to destroy any wild molds and bacteria that may have been on the fruit. Potassium Bisulfite is also used in stronger doses with water as an equipment sanitizer. You can use it to sanitize fermenting vessels, hydrometers, wine bottles, hoses or any other glass, metal, plastic or wood that comes into contact with your wine. Each 1/16 teaspoon of Potassium Bisulfite and will impart approximately 75 parts-per-million (p.p.m.) of sulfur dioxide (SO2) to each gallon of wine. Each gram will impart 238 p.p.m. to each gallon of liquid. Use our Campden Tablet Measurer to measure 1/16 of a teaspoon. Comes with complete directions.


TO PURIFY JUICE: Add one 1/16 teaspoon of Potassium Bisulfite per each gallon of juice, or for each 8 pounds of crushed fruit. Pre-dissolve in a small amount of water before adding to the juice. Allow the juice to ventilate in an open container for 24 yours before adding yeast. For over-ripe and potentially moldy fruits, double the dosage.

TO SANITIZE EQUIPMENT: All equipment should be cleaned with soapy water first. Dissolve 1 teaspoon of Potassium Bisulfite per each gallon of water. Also add 1/2 teaspoon of Citric Acid. Sanitize fermentation vessels by putting in 2 to 3 inches of solution in the bottom of the vessel. Seal the vessel air-tight for 20 minutes to allow the fumes from the solution to permeate the inside walls. You can also put in the vessel other equipment such as hoses, hydrometer, air-locks, rubber stoppers to be sanitized at the same time.

AT BOTTLING TIME: Add 1/16 teaspoon per each gallon of wine to preserve its color and flavor. Pre-dissolve in a small amount of the wine first. Potassium Sorbate is also recommended at this time to eliminate re-fermentation. Bottle immediately after adding.
_

*NOTE:* I use shot glasses and the end of a wooden utensil for crushing and dissolving my Campden tablet and pre-dissolving other small quantity items. So I keep at least 3 shot glasses around. And of course if you can get different shaped shot glasses that helps keep separated the different chemicals you might pre-measure.


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## Ecolox (May 19, 2017)

Take a look at Ecolox 240it is a compact on site system that can produce all the disinfectant that you will need at a very low cost. 
We lease out the systems for $175 a month!



Scooter68 said:


> *Tablets are used for one reason - Simplicity.* For small batches measuring the correct amount of powered k-meta would be very difficult without a digital scale and even then - it takes a little time. (_ECKraus directions for Potasium Bisulfate calls for 1/16 tsp for one gallon to pre-treat before fermentation)* _ Tablets are pre-measured and most beginners, like myself with 2 years of wine making, find the tablets one less measurement to keep straight (Teaspoon or tablespoon?). Seems like every month someone is asking for help when they overdose their batch with something.
> 
> So - as long as you are making larger batches or don't mind the time to measure with a scale, the powder K-Metabisulfate or K-bisulfate means just one product for all 3 uses.
> 
> ...


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## Scooter68 (May 19, 2017)

I have less than $400.00 invested in equipment. Leasing a system??? You are looking for commercial wine makers not most of the folks on here.


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## Ecolox (May 19, 2017)

We do also have a smaller system for households, it will definitely fit the purpose
http://store.ecolox.com/ecolox-one-electrolyzed-water-generator-home-unit/


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