# A table grape experience



## BobF (Sep 22, 2010)

Last year I made a gallon from Welch's Black grapes. At stabalize time it was quite tasty, like commercial concord wines only better 

I added sulfite and sorbate and a bit of sugar to bring it off dry. I left it for about a month and bottled.

A few days ago I opened a bottle. Up front it was very, very good! The finish was geranium :-(

I've concluded that it went through a volunteer MLF. Apparently I didn't use enough sulfite ...

Two lessons: 1) Use enough sulfite! 2) Table grapes CAN make a tasty wine.


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## ffemt128 (Sep 22, 2010)

Interesting. We just bought a large pack of grapes at costco and I know our 3 y/o won't eat them all before they go bad. May have to consider adding them to something in the near future as a filler for body and additional flavors.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 22, 2010)

BobF said:


> Last year I made a gallon from Welch's Black grapes. At stabalize time it was quite tasty, like commercial concord wines only better
> 
> I added sulfite and sorbate and a bit of sugar to bring it off dry. I left it for about a month and bottled.
> 
> ...



With the finish being a geranium - does that mean the wine is bad or just not what was expected?


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## BobF (Sep 22, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> With the finish being a geranium - does that mean the wine is bad or just not what was expected?


 
geranium indicates MLF with sorbate.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 22, 2010)

BobF said:


> geranium indicates MLF with sorbate.



Do you have to throw it out now?


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## BobF (Sep 22, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Do you have to throw it out now?


 
Yep. Nothing can be done. Thankfully it was a 1g batch.


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## stdkls28 (Sep 22, 2010)

Sorry but what is "MLF"?


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 22, 2010)

stdkls28 said:


> Sorry but what is "MLF"?



Malolactic fermentation - is a process where certain types of bacteria degrade the malic acid that is available in a wine into lactic acid and CO2 gas.

I have a question related to this - how can ensure that you prevent MLF from occurring? I and doing a chardonel and seyval and i don't want to do an MLF and i don't want it to occur on its own either.


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## BobF (Sep 22, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Malolactic fermentation - is a process where certain types of bacteria degrade the malic acid that is available in a wine into lactic acid and CO2 gas.
> 
> I have a question related to this - how can ensure that you prevent MLF from occurring? I and doing a chardonel and seyval and i don't want to do an MLF and i don't want it to occur on its own either.


 
I haven't done this ...

I've read that there are 4 ways to prevent MLF:
1. Low temp
2. Low pH
3. SO2 > 35ppm
4. Lysozyme

Sorry, no links.


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## JohnT (Sep 22, 2010)

most MLB is very sensitive to SO2. I recomend going with a heavy hand when adding sulfite.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 22, 2010)

JohnT said:


> most MLB is very sensitive to SO2. I recomend going with a heavy hand when adding sulfite.



Yeah - isn't the SO2 level suppose to be around 50-55ppm anyway?


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## non-grapenut (Sep 22, 2010)

not all of my accidental MLFs were unpleasant or geranium-my...it happened to a peach and then to a grapefruit wine and both were amazing.


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## BobF (Sep 22, 2010)

non-grapenut said:


> not all of my accidental MLFs were unpleasant or geranium-my...it happened to a peach and then to a grapefruit wine and both were amazing.


 
Had they been sorbated?


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## ellijaywinemaker (Sep 22, 2010)

BobF said:


> Last year I made a gallon from Welch's Black grapes. At stabalize time it was quite tasty, like commercial concord wines only better
> 
> I added sulfite and sorbate and a bit of sugar to bring it off dry. I left it for about a month and bottled.
> 
> ...



Grape concentrate does make a tasty wine. Next time use potassum sorbate at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon evryone needs a little potassum in there diet LOL


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## non-grapenut (Sep 24, 2010)

BobF said:


> Had they been sorbated?



It was in the beginning of my hobby days and I didn't put enough sorbate in. Back then I had an experience when I put too much sorbate in a blueberry wine, so I was a little shellshocked for a bit. I am over it now, though I did have a cherry wine that slightly MLF'd even though I did put in enough sorbate. Mother Nature is a powerful thing.


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## jet (Sep 24, 2010)

AFAIK sorbate will not prevent MLF.


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## BobF (Sep 24, 2010)

ellijaywinemaker said:


> Grape concentrate does make a tasty wine. Next time use potassum sorbate at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon evryone needs a little potassum in there diet LOL


 
Who said anything about concentrate?


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## BobF (Sep 24, 2010)

non-grapenut said:


> It was in the beginning of my hobby days and I didn't put enough sorbate in. Back then I had an experience when I put too much sorbate in a blueberry wine, so I was a little shellshocked for a bit. I am over it now, though I did have a cherry wine that slightly MLF'd even though I did put in enough sorbate. Mother Nature is a powerful thing.


 
I don't think sorbate prevents MLF. I asked b/c I'm curious why you didn't get geraniums. My understanding is that MLF combined with sorbate = geranium.

In my case, I didn't pay enough attention to sulfite - I didn't keep it high enough to prevent MLF. That, combined with sorbate, is what caused my geranium problem.

I knew better.


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## non-grapenut (Sep 24, 2010)

yeah...definitely a problem when trying NOT to use a whole lot of sulfite....MLF happens. I really try to limit my sulfites...headaches...so...as you pointed out, Bob...MLF happens now and then.


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## Wade E (Sep 24, 2010)

Was the wine fizzy at all from MLFing in the bottle?


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## BobF (Sep 25, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Was the wine fizzy at all from MLFing in the bottle?


 
Barely enough to notice, but a bit was there.


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## myakkagldwngr (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm still in the learning process,
so what I understand there are times you want to MLF, so you don't sorbate at all.
And there are times you don't want MLF, so you do sorbate and it better be enough.
What is usually the deciding factore to do MLF or not?


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## jet (Sep 25, 2010)

myakkagldwngr said:


> I'm still in the learning process,
> so what I understand there are times you want to MLF, so you don't sorbate at all.
> And there are times you don't want MLF, so you do sorbate and it better be enough.
> What is usually the deciding factore to do MLF or not?



Sorbate and MLF combined can result in an off, geranium, smell. AFAIK, the best way to prevent MLF is to keep the SO2 (aka meta, aka sulphite) high enough.


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## BobF (Sep 25, 2010)

jet said:


> Sorbate and MLF combined can result in an off, geranium, smell. AFAIK, the best way to prevent MLF is to keep the SO2 (aka meta, aka sulphite) high enough.


 

That's correct. Sorbate does nothing to inhibit MLF. Sufficient sulfite levels are needed to prevent MLF. There are also commercial enzymes available to block MLF.

MLF is supposed to smooth out wines that are harsh due to malic acid content. Whether or not you want MLF depends on the grapes and style of wine you're after.


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## non-grapenut (Sep 27, 2010)

myakkagldwngr said:


> I'm still in the learning process,
> so what I understand there are times you want to MLF, so you don't sorbate at all.
> And there are times you don't want MLF, so you do sorbate and it better be enough.
> What is usually the deciding factore to do MLF or not?



When I am getting ready to sorbate, I ask myself if this would taste good bubbly...if the answer is yes, I always bubble a couple/few bottles (no sorbate or sulfite) and drink it < 1year old. I save those for special occassion. I use Wade's sparkling wine directions and a raincoat.


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