# Cannot drink store wine



## x_diver (Aug 1, 2014)

I have been making wine for a little over a year. I was ready to give up wine altogether when I started because my acid reflux would flare up as soon as I began drinking store bought wine. Interestingly, though, I have no problems drinking my homemade wine. Has anyone else experienced this? 


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 1, 2014)

I haven't experienced that, but am glad you found a way to enjoy wine. I'm curious as to what kind of wine you're making: kits, country wines, juice buckets, fresh grapes?


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## x_diver (Aug 1, 2014)

I make some wine from fresh fruit when I can get it at a reasonable price. Otherwise, I make it from frozen fruit, homewinery.com fruit concentrates and other miscellaneous kits.

I went on vacation last weekend and had some really nice wine in a restaurant and my acid reflux started up immediately. Just wondering if it's only me.


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 1, 2014)

I find these type of statements odd. While I am not discounting your experiences I know that I make my commercial wines that are available in stores exactly the same way as I did my home wines so I am not sure how a store bought wine could cause symptoms that a home made wine does not.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 1, 2014)

This does not make any sense to me either unless you're making nearly flat wine. Now with that said, I have a lady friend that said she cannot drink New York wines as she breaks out in hives and goes into an asthma attack. Thats pretty bazaar but I've witnessed it in their house and out wine tasting. Now get this, many of the grapes along Lake Erie are sourced from New York. I send Grapes/juice to the Finger Lakes and receive some from them. She wants to blame them for putting too many sulfates in the wine, I say it's all psychological.


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## cimbaliw (Aug 1, 2014)

I have a couple of thoughts on the matter:
1. Perhaps commercial wines have a higher alcohol content that may worsen the reflux. Conversely, higher sugar content liquids are proven to worsen reflux.
2. It's possible that higher sulphite, or some other chemical concentration in commercial wines may also worsen the symptoms.

Are you using prilosec as a fining agent


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## x_diver (Aug 1, 2014)

I was giving this some more thought. I age everything in glass. I never add oak. Do commercial wines generally get aged in oak? Wondering if this has something to do with it.

I only drink red wine. I set the alcohol in my wines to be about 10%. 





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## roger80465 (Aug 1, 2014)

I second the premise that maybe it is the sulfites. I understand the sulfite content in commercial wine is much higher.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 1, 2014)

roger80465 said:


> I second the premise that maybe it is the sulfites. I understand the sulfite content in commercial wine is much higher.



I don't agree with this. I use the same at home as I do commercially. You would be surprised how inconsistent wineries are with add sulfites.


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## dking193 (Aug 1, 2014)

I have a friend that doesn't drink much wine because he gets really red in the face after a couple of glasses. His doctor told him it might be the sulphite in wine. He claims my wine does not have the same affect. I of course use sulphites in my wine as well, but I try my best to go with minimal levels according to PH levels. My understanding is the ppm has to be pretty high to cause issues but perhaps some are more sensitive to it? 

Of course the phenomenon with my friend might have something to do with free wine is much better for him.


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## Rocky (Aug 2, 2014)

I definitely prefer my wine to store bought including wines that I was drinking on a regular basis just 6 years ago, before resuming home wine making. Some people refer to it as "cellar palate" where one becomes inured to the wines from his or her own cellar. If it is, it has affected many members of my family and many friends.

I think it has to do with some additive, be it sulfites or something else. I was told by wine makers in Italy that they do add extra sulfites to the wines they export, particularly to the US. This is because the wine may be in a warehouse for some number of days where temperatures can range from the 50's to over a 100 degrees F.


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## Geronimo (Aug 2, 2014)

roger80465 said:


> I second the premise that maybe it is the sulfites. I understand the sulfite content in commercial wine is much higher.



I agree. I have a relative that gets severe headaches from commercial white wines, but she loves mine. 

I told her to try an experiment with a commercial white wine... open the bottle, decant, and wait 12 hours. Sure enough, it reduced the problem a lot. 

FWIW, I have a similar reaction to nitrates in cured meats (acid reflux that makes me feel like I swallowed a handful of chemicals). I buy some uncured bacon, and I don't have a problem. Now I buy chicken sausage that's nitrate free and I'm happy as a clam!


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 2, 2014)

roger80465 said:


> I second the premise that maybe it is the sulfites. I understand the sulfite content in commercial wine is much higher.



I absolutely hate this completely ignorant statement. 

Sulfites in commercial wines are often lower than the home winemakers' because they (we) are better equipped to minimize O2 exposure and therefore do not need higher levels of SO2 to protect the wine. Also, we have better SO2 & pH monitoring equipment therefore you will never see a commercial winemaker adding an arbitrary '1/4 tsp to five gallons every time it's racked' as home winemakers often do. I personally know many many commecial winemakers from tiny to huge and each and every one of them want to add as little to the wine as possible not the other way around. Lastly, you should know the symptoms of a sulfite reaction before you jump to the conclusion that sulfites caused this. Sulfites cause asthmatic symptoms not what the original poster described.

What you, and many other, did by making this uneducated and uninformed statement is perpetuate a common falsehood.


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 2, 2014)

Let me say this clearly......

Sulfites do not cause headaches. Sulfites do not cause hangovers. Sulfites do not cause red cheeks. Sufites do not cause acid reflux.

There is a small percentage of the population that truly has a sulfite allergy issue. They not only cannot drink wine but cannot eat dried fruit. They cannot take sulfur based medications. They do not get the above listed symptoms.

Please google it. Read about it. Learn the truth. Stop perpetuating inaccurate information. Please, please, please


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 2, 2014)

Geronimo said:


> I agree. I have a relative that gets severe headaches from commercial white wines, but she loves mine.
> 
> I told her to try an experiment with a commercial white wine... open the bottle, decant, and wait 12 hours. Sure enough, it reduced the problem a lot.
> 
> FWIW, I have a similar reaction to nitrates in cured meats (acid reflux that makes me feel like I swallowed a handful of chemicals). I buy some uncured bacon, and I don't have a problem. Now I buy chicken sausage that's nitrate free and I'm happy as a clam!



Nitrates are not sulfites.


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## GaDawg (Aug 2, 2014)

I can't afford to drink the wine I have become accustomed to


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## roger80465 (Aug 2, 2014)

Calamity Cellars said:


> Let me say this clearly......
> 
> Sulfites do not cause headaches. Sulfites do not cause hangovers. Sulfites do not cause red cheeks. Sufites do not cause acid reflux.
> 
> ...



Time to dial it back a bit. If you want to educate, feel free. If you want to start name calling, you are stepping over the line.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am curious as to your MEDICAL qualifications to make such broad statements. As for 'google it', that suggests if it is on the internet, it has to be true. Are you a French model?

People react differently to many items. Just because you and your colleagues use less sulfites does not mean other wineries follow that program.


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## dralarms (Aug 2, 2014)

Wow,

Take a step back, everyone. I don't know what causes the op's problems but can tell you my wife can't take sulfa or sulfar drugs and yes store bought wine makes her have an upset stomach and headaches.

She can drink mine just fine.

We are all a big hapoy family here and there is no reason for anyone to take offense at each other.

And as far as "cellar palette", I nevef could drink store bought wine, could barely stand local winery fair, as far as mine I can drink all I want and I love it. Every "wine drinker" that I give my stuff to tells me mine is the best they ever drank.


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## Julie (Aug 2, 2014)

Calamity Cellars, you need to calm down. If you feel the need to be rude to people, take it to a pm.


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## Stressbaby (Aug 2, 2014)

Actually I thought it was a good post. Too often we react to anecdotes, then those stories are repeated, then they become legend, then "truth." How many times have you heard of someone getting sick from a flu shot? Same thing. Nobody gets sick from a flu shot. Period. There is no living, viable infectious agent in a flu shot. And there is no need for a medical degree to know this information. 
And before anyone asks for my medical qualifications, I'm a doctor. 


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 3, 2014)

roger80465 said:


> Time to dial it back a bit. If you want to educate, feel free. If you want to start name calling, you are stepping over the line.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion. I am curious as to your MEDICAL qualifications to make such broad statements. As for 'google it', that suggests if it is on the internet, it has to be true. Are you a French model?
> 
> People react differently to many items. Just because you and your colleagues use less sulfites does not mean other wineries follow that program.



Please point out where I called someone a name. I said they made an uniformed statement but did not call any one a name.

Interesting that multiple people can diagnose the op's problem as a sulfite reaction and implicate commercial wines as having higher sulfite levels with no medical knowledge or facts and no one tells them to dial it down.

My 'anecdotal' information on how commercial wineries make their wines is probably going to me more accurate since I am a commercial winemaker and I actually know them and how they make wine.


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## manvsvine (Aug 3, 2014)

Alan is pretty right on track , 
There is a lot more internet noise about sulfites than there is good science .
Sulfites are an issue with 10% of asthmatics and the occupationaly sensitized .
Beyond that it's less than .0001 percent of the population who are naturally sensitive .
The cdc has studied this extensively and the FDA rates sulfites as GRAS .
Dried apricots and hotel salad bars have 30 times the sulfite that a 4.2 ph commercial wine is allowed to have.

The ethanol in wine is the most toxic ingredient by a long shot.

Alan's been a long time poster on several Internet forums and one of the few professional winemakers who help us homies , I've read his posts for years , never seen him post a single innacurate one .


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## dking193 (Aug 3, 2014)

I was driving back from beach today and missed several post. Got exciting in here for a bit. I decided to do some testing tonight that forced me to open and drink several wines, hence the late post. 

What I concluded in my testing of SO2 in commercial wines backs Calamity to a large degree when it comes to sulfites in commercial wines. I tested 3 tonight. low $10, med $17, and higher $31 bottles of wine I had in stock. a. 24ppm Cab, b. 21ppm Melbac and c. 26ppm Pinot Nior. I was very surprised they were this low. I used the Vinmetrica SC-300 for the testing. 

This is a very small sampling and only reds, but I found it interesting. May require more testing (drinking) tomorrow night to see PH and TA levels.


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## seth8530 (Aug 3, 2014)

I believe that Calamity Cellars, could have delivered his message in a more constructive manner, but I can understand why he is upset. He puts a lot of care and craftsmanship into his work, and it can be really upsetting when people just make broad assumptions about what the commercial sector does ( which he is a member of). 

Ie, I would be extremely upset if people started bashing nuclear engineers without first consulting a physic book or journal to provide relevant facts.

Second,these kind of misconceptions about sulfites are not excusable for a wineforum. We are supposed to be the guys who are in the know, not the ones without a clue of what we are talking about. Sulfites do not cause hangovers, headaches, acid reflux.. ect. BTW, the Google search I made took less than 35 seconds. 

And, before someone says that came from the internet, and decides that makes it worthless I would like you to also consider all the other valuable information that also resides on the internet. 

http://www.winespectator.com/drvinny/show/id/5517


http://guides.wsj.com/wine/wine-tips-and-tricks/why-do-i-get-headaches-from-wine/


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## grapeman (Aug 3, 2014)

I can understand and share Calamity's frustrations. As I do direct marketing with the public through farmers markets I meet hundreds of people every day tasting my wines. There is no larger single subject brought up by the public than so and so not being able to drink wine because there is a sulfite sensitivity. I deal with cold climate grapes which in general are higher in acid therefore in general needing less sulfite for protection. I still need to reassure the public about the safety of drinking wine in spite of the "Contains Sulfites" requirement on the label. It really does get to a person needing to spend so much time trying to educate them about this.


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## JohnT (Aug 3, 2014)

Calamity is a man that really knows his stuff. As a professional (calamity), I can understand how he may feel frustrated at times. His fault is that he tends to forget who the members of this forum are made up of.

Calamity, your advice and contributions have been very valuable, but 99.99% of the members here are in it for the sake of enjoyment. When you go off like that, it sucks the fun out of it. I point out that you should be the bigger man given your experience level and education. Please have patience with those not as fortunate as you. keep calm, and *kindly* correct that with which you disagree with.


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## Gwand (Aug 3, 2014)

Stressbaby said:


> Actually I thought it was a good post. Too often we react to anecdotes, then those stories are repeated, then they become legend, then "truth." How many times have you heard of someone getting sick from a flu shot? Same thing. Nobody gets sick from a flu shot. Period. There is no living, viable infectious agent in a flu shot. And there is no need for a medical degree to know this information.
> And before anyone asks for my medical qualifications, I'm a doctor.
> 
> Stress baby, Never say never in medicine. That's my experience after 31 years as an academic physician.
> ...


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## Geronimo (Aug 3, 2014)

cimbaliw said:


> I have a couple of thoughts on the matter:
> 1. Perhaps commercial wines have a higher alcohol content that may worsen the reflux. Conversely, higher sugar content liquids are proven to worsen reflux.
> 2. It's possible that higher sulphite, or some other chemical concentration in commercial wines may also worsen the symptoms.



Alcohol content, pH and juice quality are all nearly identical between commercial wines and homemade wine from kits. 

Telling people that it's all in their heads? That all commercial wines are better in every way, so the person experiencing the issue must be wrong? Interesting...


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## Stressbaby (Aug 3, 2014)

Gwand said:


> Stressbaby said:
> 
> 
> > Actually I thought it was a good post. Too often we react to anecdotes, then those stories are repeated, then they become legend, then "truth." How many times have you heard of someone getting sick from a flu shot? Same thing. Nobody gets sick from a flu shot. Period. There is no living, viable infectious agent in a flu shot. And there is no need for a medical degree to know this information.
> ...



Gary,
As an academician, I'm sure you know this, but for the benefit of the other readers, I have to point out that you've sited a 24 year old study using telephone interviews, highly prone to recall bias and association bias. Bias aside, a study such as this hardly establishes causation. One obvious alternative explanation is that merely visiting a walk-in clinic increases risk of a flu-like illness...hardly unexpected given that people with flu-like illnesses often go to walk-in clinics for treatment.
Robert


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## Stressbaby (Aug 3, 2014)

PS: Sorry for the threadjacking.

The point is this: sulfites are to winemakers what flu shots are to primary care physicians.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 3, 2014)

Being a commercial winemaker along with Grapeman and Calamity I can tell you that we strive to put the right recommended dose of sulphites in the wine based off the ph. There is nothing worse then smelling a wine for its aroma and picking up S02. To generalize all commercial wineries like you would all home winemakers is so wrong. Just go to a wine trail event sometime and taste the different wine from different wineries. Some make a lot of bad wine and some make all good wine.


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## ibglowin (Aug 3, 2014)

Was it _only_ 5 years ago a younger man who also happens to go by the name "Calamity Cellars" on another winemaking forum was panicked and didn't know what to do with his Cabernet Sauvignon with a pH of 3.9….

A little kindness goes along way and is always appreciated.



JohnT said:


> Calamity is a man that really knows his stuff. As a professional (calamity), I can understand how he may feel frustrated at times. His fault is that he tends to forget who the members of this forum are made up of.
> 
> Calamity, your advice and contributions have been very valuable, but 99.99% of the members here are in it for the sake of enjoyment. When you go off like that, it sucks the fun out of it. I point out that you should be the bigger man given your experience level and education. Please have patience with those not as fortunate as you. keep calm, and *kindly* correct that with which you disagree with.


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## Rocky (Aug 3, 2014)

Okay then, let's approach this from another direction. Let's not discuss what it is not, let's discuss what it is. If it is not sulfites, then what is it? There has to be something in commercial wines that causes issues and discomfort with people and don't tell me it is psychosomatic. I know what a burning the length of my esophagus feels like. I don't think it was the ethanol because at the same time I could and would drink _Wild Turkey_ bourbon (50.5% ABV) either neat or with rocks and have no effect. Nor was it 'cellar palate' because at the time, I was not making wine and I had not made wine for more than 15 years. Are there other additives that we have not mentioned? Lastly, why would a wine maker in Italy say that they increase the sulfite level for exported wines to protect them in storage? That does not seem to be information that would increase sales of his wine.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 3, 2014)

Rocky, in transporting wine internationally it does get beat up some and also goes though different ambient temperatures. I often sell bulk wine to wineries in the tri state area and always up the sulphites in that wine to protect it. The free S02 which protects the wine becomes bound. At the same time I record how much I am adding so even the bound S02 stays in check. You have to know approximately how much you're going to lose for the task at hand whether it is just racking or filtering and bottling at the same time. If you have less than 20ppm in you wine and lose 30% during filtering and bottling, that's not leaving most wines with a lot of protection. Next time you bottle, check your S02 before bottling and than check a bottle the next day to see your loss.


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## JMK (Aug 3, 2014)

Could it be possible that the culprit be compounds being leached from oak barrels? I would guess that the majority of home winemakers only use glass carboys to bulk age versus oak barrels. Do you feel the effects after drinking commercial wine made in stainless steel?


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## seth8530 (Aug 3, 2014)

I have read studies that link wine headaches to tannins, something high quality reds have a lot of. Also, important to.consider is what you eat with your.commercial wine. Could be that in honor of buying the commercial wine you are eating something that causes acid reflux or a bad stomach.


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## Geronimo (Aug 3, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> I have read studies that link wine headaches to tannins, something high quality reds have a lot of. Also, important to.consider is what you eat with your.commercial wine. Could be that in honor of buying the commercial wine you are eating something that causes acid reflux or a bad stomach.



Tannins? 

A) I have made many high tannin reds and no one has ever complained of a reaction.

B) I hear about headaches in regard to whites more than reds, and whites rarely have much in the way of tannins.



> To generalize all commercial wineries like you would all home winemakers is so wrong.



Can we please try to have a little respect for the OP? He says he's tried commercial wines (many of them) and has mysterious reactions that cause _acid reflux_. He didn't say it was sulfites and he didn't say anything about headaches. 

Wine is very acidic. All of it. Kit wine, store bought wine... you name it. 

I chimed in that I have a _similar_ mysterious reaction to nitrates, and got scolded for not talking about sulfites. 

I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread... and hope this isn't an indicator of where this forum is going.


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## GaDawg (Aug 3, 2014)

Hay folks if you drink enough wine, homemade or otherwise you are going to have a headache. It's called a hangover 


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 3, 2014)

I will admit I might have been a bit aggressive in my initial response but I am absolutely disgusted with the ever pervasive ignorant sulfite statements that I constantly hear in every venue that wine is discussed. 

I find it amusing that some one used my concerns about a high pH wine that I was making four years ago as some sort of response to my post. Never once in that phase of my wine making did I spread falsehood or misinformation. I may have been short on knowledge but I did not spout out misinformation...big difference. I do my research before I say something publicly. If my opinions are conjecture then I say so. I have an idea of what caused the op's issue but I do not have facts so I have not included those thoughts here. 

As a long term result I'll bet no one that reads this thread will ever blame acid reflux on sulfites so I guess my mission is accomplished.


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## JohnT (Aug 3, 2014)

moderators....

i think it is time that thread be deleted.
this is getting way too heated and feelings are starting to get hurt.


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## manvsvine (Aug 3, 2014)

I would disagree , this is probably one of the most enlightening threads I've read here.
There should be less tolerance of falsehoods and scientifically poor advice spread on the forum. 
When misinformation is spread , the purveyor should be called on it.


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 3, 2014)

manvsvine said:


> I would disagree , this is probably one of the most enlightening threads I've read here.
> There should be less tolerance of falsehoods and scientifically poor advice spread on the forum.
> When misinformation is spread , the purveyor should be called on it.



I could not agree more.


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## roger80465 (Aug 3, 2014)

Folks, I am here to learn and I learn something every day. I love the banter and the help that flows so freely here. If I am wrong about something, I will gladly stand corrected. Feel free to educate me, that is what I am here for. Seems my understanding about sulfites is incorrect. I apologize if I mislead anyone.

That said, attacking someone for inaccurate information is not helpful. Statements like "I absolutely hate this completely ignorant statement", whether intended or not, attacks the person as well as the statement. 

Then to follow up with "I will admit I might have been a bit aggressive in my initial response but I am absolutely disgusted with the ever pervasive ignorant sulfite statements that I constantly hear in every venue that wine is discussed." Every venue....hmmm. Seems to be a common misconception. This quote is no calmer or respectful than the first. Please educate rather than attack. That is all I am saying. 

Statements like these remind me of Donald Trump. He has tremendous experience and knowledge, but his delivery causes my brain to go <click>.

This ends my response to this forever. Have a great day.


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## ibglowin (Aug 3, 2014)

Correcting misinformation is one thing but personal attacks and or being verbally abusive to others forum members will not be tolerated. If you can't play nice with others you will be asked to leave.



manvsvine said:


> When misinformation is spread , the purveyor should be called on it.


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## Calamity Cellars (Aug 3, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Correcting misinformation is one thing but personal attacks and or being verbally abusive to others forum members will not be tolerated. If you can't play nice with others you will be asked to leave.



I did not attack anybody personally nor was I verbally abusive. Specifically, I criticized an inaccurate statement. Should we tolerate misinformation?


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## ibglowin (Aug 3, 2014)

That is up for debate. Would you speak to your wife in that fashion? Your Boss/Supervisor? I would hope not. Its all in the delivery. You can correct misinformation but you don't have to be rude. You sir are rude since the day you signed up for this forum. Consider this a first and last.


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