# Orange wine fermentation didn't start



## socialdougal (Mar 29, 2015)

Here's the recipe:
Ripe oranges 10
Brewed tea for tannin
Sugar 1kg
Store-bought orange juice 0.5L
Active dried baking yeast 4gm
Vegemite 2 pea-size blobs for yeast nutrient
Water to 5L

The oranges' squeezed juice, store juice, zest, sugar and some of the water went into a pan for a boil

Orange pulp discarded, zest retained

That whole mix, including zest, went into the primary fermenter and cooled until tepid

Primed the yeast with a tsp sugar

Added the tannin and yeast to the cooled mix, topped up to 5L with water, capped and airlocked. Ambient temp is at around 20 C

No activity after 24 hours

What could be wrong, folks?


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## Julie (Mar 29, 2015)

Baking yeast is just not going to do it. You need something a little more aggressive, I would try Lavlin 1118.


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## Bergmann (Mar 29, 2015)

I agree with Julie!
Why do people want to go through all the efforts involved in producing wine and them use bread yeast. I mean it is not like it is any cheaper. And doing so would be like putting cooking oil in a car engine. they are both il, but have two completely different purposes.


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## Turock (Mar 29, 2015)

Gotta use a proper nutrient,also.


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## cpfan (Mar 29, 2015)

socialdougal said:


> What could be wrong, folks?


Could be you need to wait another day or two.

Steve


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## socialdougal (Mar 31, 2015)

Thanks folks.

For some reason I didn't get notifications of your comments. I expect that's my fault.

Anyway, I can tell you that the fermentation is going nicely now. I'm not sure if it was really needed or if I could have just waited, but I added 30% more primed yeast.

I brewed beer from kits years ago, and now I just decided to get back into brewing on a whim and I'm in a different country, so I don't have all the gear to hand. I even had to make my own airlocks for the first two batches of wine (apple and orange) I have going here. The oranges came from a tree growing in a public area. The bread yeast was handy because I bake my own bread.

There are no brewing shops here, and I believe that's because alcohol production is by licence only. I have provisions and equipment on order, and I did find one local supplier of malt extract in 1lb 4oz jars as well as an overseas supplier of hops, so beer will be on the brew soon.

Meanwhile, I did locate one forum post about using baking yeast by a brewer with a lot of experience. His trials had concluded that it is not as problematic as is widely believed.

My main concern about this wine now is having all that zest in the fermentation jar. The recipe is an adaption of one I found on the Net. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Thanks again.


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## wineforfun (Mar 31, 2015)

The zest will be fine, you will rack off of it when moving from primary to secondary. Some of it may be problematic in your racking cane but most should stay back.


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## BernardSmith (Mar 31, 2015)

Hi Socialdougal and welcome. Dougal's a guid Scottish name. 
Brewers need heat but wine makers generally don't... What was the reason for boiling the OJ? I guess my thinking - for what it's worth - and it may be worth very little - is that your wine might taste a little....um.... thin. You are diluting about - what? 3/4 L of OJ with about 4 L or more of water... I don't know about you but generally, if I am drinking orange juice I prefer my OJ to be undiluted. Adding yeast and fermenting out the sugars does not intensify the fruit flavors...

Now, the acidity of OJ is such that a _little_ water helps cut it but I am thinking _your_ OJ might taste more like faintly flavored water than orange wine given the quantity of water with which you have diluted the juice. If I were you I might have added only store bought OJ to make up the liquid to 5 L , not water. Wine ain't beer and you really want to add more fruit juice rather than water when wine making. 
Rather than Marmite or Vegemite you might simply proof some yeast in a little water and boil that mixture. The dead yeast will provide some basic nutrients without the sodium and other flavors in the yeast extract.
Good luck


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## socialdougal (Mar 31, 2015)

wineforfun said:


> The zest will be fine, you will rack off of it when moving from primary to secondary. Some of it may be problematic in your racking cane but most should stay back.



I'd planned to strain the mix when moving to secondary, so getting the zest out shouldn't be an issue. My concern is more about whether that much zest will make the whole batch bitter. That's the recipe, though, and the author says hers turned out good, so let's see what happens. Cheers!


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## socialdougal (Mar 31, 2015)

BernardSmith said:


> Hi Socialdougal and welcome. Dougal's a guid Scottish name.
> Brewers need heat but wine makers generally don't... What was the reason for boiling the OJ? I guess my thinking - for what it's worth - and it may be worth very little - is that your wine might taste a little....um.... thin. You are diluting about - what? 3/4 L of OJ with about 4 L or more of water... I don't know about you but generally, if I am drinking orange juice I prefer my OJ to be undiluted. Adding yeast and fermenting out the sugars does not intensify the fruit flavors...
> 
> Now, the acidity of OJ is such that a _little_ water helps cut it but I am thinking _your_ OJ might taste more like faintly flavored water than orange wine given the quantity of water with which you have diluted the juice. If I were you I might have added only store bought OJ to make up the liquid to 5 L , not water. Wine ain't beer and you really want to add more fruit juice rather than water when wine making.
> ...



Thanks Bernard. Dougal is the name of a wee west highland terrier who was born in Australia, adopted a funny-looking geezer and his wife in Singapore, and now lets them live with him in Japan, laddie.

Boiling the mix was called for in the recipe, whose orange content was only 10 whole oranges. I decided on adding the extra store-bought OJ. So the total juice content was the juice of 10 whole oranges plus the store juice. The zest does appear to be giving the mix a great orange essence at this stage. I'd say the heat was needed at least to dissolve the sugar and soften the zest, and probably also to eliminate any microbes in the mix.

I'll see what it turns out like, but at this stage I'm thinking you're right about upping the juice content to at least 3L and maybe reducing the amount of zest. Great advice on the yeast nutrient till I get some. Cheers for that.

I also have an apple wine on the go. Will be sure to post here how they turn out.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 1, 2015)

socialdougal said:


> Thanks Bernard. Dougal is the name of a wee west highland terrier who was born in Australia, adopted a funny-looking geezer and his wife in Singapore, and now lets them live with him in Japan, laddie.
> 
> Boiling the mix was called for in the recipe, whose orange content was only 10 whole oranges. I decided on adding the extra store-bought OJ. So the total juice content was the juice of 10 whole oranges plus the store juice. The zest does appear to be giving the mix a great orange essence at this stage. I'd say the heat was needed at least to dissolve the sugar and soften the zest, and probably also to eliminate any microbes in the mix.
> 
> ...



Ah... as in Dougal of the the Magic Roundabout? (I think he was a terrier but don't know if he was a heiland dug). 

An effective way for wine makers to eliminate wild and unwanted yeasts and other bacteria is to use K-meta (Campden tablets). When dissolved in water they release SO2 and SO2 is a good bactericide (sulfa drugs are still used, I believe, in animal medicine as a general spectrum antibiotic). At higher concentrations (about 2 oz of K-meta per gallon of water) you can use this to sanitize all your equipment.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 1, 2015)

BernardSmith said:


> Ah... as in Dougal of the the Magic Roundabout?



This is funny! I knew of the concept of the Magic Roundabout traffic circle, but I did not know that the name came from a cartoon! 



> (I think he was a terrier but don't know if he was a heiland dug).



All-knowing Wikipedia says "Skye Terrier."



> When dissolved in water they release SO2 and SO2 is a good bactericide (sulfa drugs are still used, I believe, in animal medicine as a general spectrum antibiotic).



By the way, sulfa drugs are chemically completely dissimilar to sulfites.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 1, 2015)

Thanks, Paul. I guess I simply assumed that the sulfur in sulfa drugs was the key element in those antibiotics... Much more complicated than that, it seems... 

When I was a kid , the Magic Roundabout was a great children's five minute animation the BBC broadcast just before the evening's news, but when I went to university, we watched the same programs as if they were part of the underground (Dylan the Rabbit was always completed spaced out and Zebedee (boiing!) was both "the man".. and the master... ("time for bed"), and Ermitrude the cow.. and Florence.. oh..and Mr McHenry on his bike... TV on mild altering substances...


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## sour_grapes (Apr 1, 2015)

BernardSmith said:


> TV on mild altering substances...



Gee, all we did like that in college was play "The Love Boat" and "Fantasy Island" as drinking games.


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## socialdougal (Apr 1, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> This is funny! I knew of the concept of the Magic Roundabout traffic circle, but I did not know that the name came from a cartoon!
> 
> 
> 
> All-knowing Wikipedia says "Skye Terrier."



Yes, Dougal was a _Magic Roundabout_ character. It was a collection of puppets/toys put in motion, but the really interesting thing about the show (which was aimed at kids) was revealed years after it went off the screen. The writer of the original books had based his characters on drug users and dealers. Dougal could never stay still and was on speed, I think. Dylan the rabbit clearly liked his weed, and Zebadee (spelling?), the toy who bounced in on a spring, was a dealer.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 1, 2015)

The books came later, I think. The original, original was stop frame animation and was a reworked version of a French animation. The British producers simply used original film and wrote their own story lines that had nothing to do with the original stories. Eric Thompson, I think it was, was the narrator and it was his narration that created the story thread for the British version. 

and yeah, Paul... British TV was often far more cutting , sharp and original than US network TV - Zed cars, for instance


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## socialdougal (Apr 14, 2015)

Just an update on the wine (not The Magic Roundabout) - The fermentation is still going, but slowed to a point where I decided to strain out the zest and other scraps. Racked it into a clean jar to do that, and I like what I can see and smell. It looks to be clearing and has a pleasant zesty essence along with a discernible scent of alcohol. Capped and airlocked the jar, and keeping at fermentation temperature (about 20-22°C). The plan is to rack again after fermentation ends, then move to a cooler spot. How's that sound?


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## BernardSmith (Apr 14, 2015)

sounds good. You may want to use a new (and sanitized) baster or wine thief to draw a small sample and taste the wine.. In my opinion, as with cooking, it is so important to taste the wine even while it is in the middle of fermenting - At the very least you can get a sense of the changes that the wine is undergoing and you can get a sense of how the flavors and tastes develop and change. Wine from oranges - I think - may surprise you with its bitterness.


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## socialdougal (Apr 14, 2015)

BernardSmith said:


> You may want to use a new (and sanitized) baster or wine thief...



Why "new"?


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## BernardSmith (Apr 14, 2015)

Apologies for my lack of clarity - You don't want to use a baster you have used for basting meat or the like... so "new" was perhaps the wrong word. I should have said a wine or beer dedicated baster


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## socialdougal (Apr 14, 2015)

Ah, ok. I'll just let it settle after stirring it up, then I'll give it a taste test.


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## socialdougal (Jun 21, 2015)

Just in case there's some interest, I thought I'd report back that I just tried my tomato wine (mentioned in this thread) for the first time today. I have to confess I was expecting it to taste like ****, but I am surprised that it is very good. I like it very much. It was not easy to make, but I have learned how to do it better next time. I was thinking I would give up on country wines and stick to beer brewing only, but will def make some more tomato wine. I used baking yeast and didn't have a clarifier. However, I do like the taste even though it's a tad cloudy. If the recipe's of interest, let me know. Will update again after I get to the orange wine.


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## BernardSmith (Jun 22, 2015)

Tomato is one wine (among many) I have not yet tried to make. I'd be curious about your recipe. Did you use water or only the juice extracted from the fruit?


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## socialdougal (Jun 23, 2015)

Canned tomato and water. Also, start the fermentation in a larger vessel. Mine overflowed because of the vigorous start. Also, there were a lot of solids to remove. Might be worth liquidizing the tomato pulp.

Recipe - 4.5L+ (6 bottles) of tomato wine

Tomato pulp 6 cans
2 tbsp lemon juice
1kg sugar
4gm yeast
2 peas of Vegemite
boiled cooled water to 4.5L+
(Pectinase clarifier)

boil 3-4 litres of water and cool

boil tomatoes in 1-2L water, dissolve sugar, add LJ

pour 1L of water into fermentation jar, add tomato mixture, top up with water to 4.5L

Heat a cup of water, dissolve a tsp sugar and vegemite, let it cool till tepid, mix in yeast, set aside

When the mixture in the jar is tepid, add the yeast mixture + pectinase and stir

Cap and attach airlock

After fermentation ends, rack into clean 5L jar.

Then apply time and patience. 

After it's clear, bottle through a filter paper in funnel and wait a few weeks for improvement before drinking.


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## quiltertoo (Jun 23, 2015)

Several years ago when I had an overabundance of tomatoes I made tomato wine. I didn't care for the wine I made with ripe tomatoes. The taste of tomatoes in wine just didn't appeal to me. I used it in cooking which was o.k. At the end of the season I made a green tomato wine. The smell of the fermenting wine was pretty bad and I almost tossed the batch before it was finished. The wine turned out to be a nice white wine with no hint of green tomato. No one could guess that it was made with green tomato.

Mary Lou


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## BernardSmith (Jun 23, 2015)

OK . Now I am very intrigued. I know what Vegemite is (I prefer Marmite) and I know what a pea is but what is a pea of Vegemite? Is that a volume? And what is it doing in the recipe? Is that simply in place of nutrient? And for tomato wine, what yeast would you suggest


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## socialdougal (Jun 24, 2015)

I did use Vegemite as a nutrient when making this wine. That was before you advised me how to make a nutrient, Bernard. "Pea" is a means of describing a volume. A piece about the size of a garden pea. 

As for yeast, I used baking yeast as it was all I had at the time.


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