# What’s wrong with whipping to degas?



## kuziwk (Feb 13, 2020)

I would love to get a vacuum pump but for the cost I can get a pretty decent wine kit so I haven’t ever convinced myself to get one. I don’t mind whipping the wine really, however is there any benefit to using a pump or a brake bleeder? I typically switch drill directions right before the wine creates a vortex to minimize air contact. On the kits That don’t get bulk aged for a year, sometimes I still have a bit of CO2 that you can’t taste but it’s visible in the glass, decanting before serving takes care of this. 

Does whipping reduce the shelf life of the wine or remove aroma? 

I typically only run the drill constantly changing directions for 4 minutes, seems much quicker than any pump or brake bleeder.


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## Johnd (Feb 13, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> I would love to get a vacuum pump but for the cost I can get a pretty decent wine kit so I haven’t ever convinced myself to get one. I don’t mind whipping the wine really, however is there any benefit to using a pump or a brake bleeder? I typically switch drill directions right before the wine creates a vortex to minimize air contact. On the kits That don’t get bulk aged for a year, sometimes I still have a bit of CO2 that you can’t taste but it’s visible in the glass, decanting before serving takes care of this.
> 
> Does whipping reduce the shelf life of the wine or remove aroma?
> 
> I typically only run the drill constantly changing directions for 4 minutes, seems much quicker than any pump or brake bleeder.



Nothing’s wrong with it, keep on whipping!!


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## rustbucket (Feb 13, 2020)

Whipping helps the CO2 in the wine to quickly escape from solution but, at the same time, it also introduces oxygen into the wine. That is most likely the reason kit manufactures include a healthy dose of potassium metabisulphite for addition to the wine at this stage. The potassium metabisulphite combines with the oxygen and negates its harmful effect.


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## tjgaul (Feb 13, 2020)

I thought I didn't need a vacuum pump . . . until I finally bought one. Degassing is a big benefit and you naturally degas on every transfer, but for me the side benefits outweigh this feature. Being able to make transfers with carboys on an even level (no gravity concerns) and the ease of filling any type of bottle (no more balancing the needle valve on the pinnacle of a steep punt) are two giant pluses in my book. Not to mention how much faster the pump moves wine compared to a siphon. The AIO pump is one of my favorite pieces of equipment.


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## rustbucket (Feb 13, 2020)

Tim, if I wasn't using plastic carboys, I would go the vacuum pump root as well. There are no downsides to its use that I can think of and many advantages, several of which you pointed out in your posting. 

Wine whipping followed by with the addition of potassium metabisulphite does work for me with one prize winning wine, my only contest entry, and many genuinely expressed complements from others to my credit.


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## kuziwk (Feb 13, 2020)

rustbucket said:


> Tim, if I wasn't using plastic carboys, I would go the vacuum pump root as well. There are no downsides to its use that I can think of and many advantages, several of which you pointed out in your posting.
> 
> Wine whipping followed by with the addition of potassium metabisulphite does work for me with one prize winning wine, my only contest entry, and many genuinely expressed complements from others to my credit.



I could think of one benefit to whipping, basically that some H2S and other unpleasant gases get removed. I don't actually use a whip though it's stiring rod and each paddle is on hinges to allow it to get past the carboy neck. Centrifugal force causes the hinged paddles to swing out and it stires the wine. I change directions every 10 seconds with a powerful brushless drill to prevent a vortex in the middle, it only takes about 4 minutes really. I've heard of guys whipping for 45 minutes which is crazy and not necessary.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 13, 2020)

rustbucket said:


> Tim, if I wasn't using plastic carboys, I would go the vacuum pump root as well. There are no downsides to its use that I can think of and many advantages, several of which you pointed out in your posting.
> 
> Wine whipping followed by with the addition of potassium metabisulphite does work for me with one prize winning wine, my only contest entry, and many genuinely expressed complements from others to my credit.


I would think it would be better to added you meets bisulphite prior to shipping the wine and exposing it to a large amount of oxygen, rather than adding it after the fact.


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## Jal5 (Feb 13, 2020)

You could do the DIY pump using a HF vacuum pump.


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## kuziwk (Feb 13, 2020)

Jal5 said:


> You could do the DIY pump using a HF vacuum pump.


I'll google it when I get a chance, I might have an 12 v RV pump kicking around. Has anyone imploded a carboy with Al that negative pressure? Lol


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## Ajmassa (Feb 13, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> I'll google it when I get a chance, I might have an 12 v RV pump kicking around. Has anyone imploded a carboy with Al that negative pressure? Lol



Anyone who says yes is a liar!
Someone posted a cool YouTube video a couple months back. @Cmason1954 or @sour_grapes maybe. Running tests on glass under vacuum. 

The glass was ALOT thinner than a carboy. And then they started scratching the hell out of it too. 
Never imploded. Then for entertainment they went crazy on the scratches and the vacuum to implode it but only got ended up with a crack.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 13, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Anyone who says yes is a liar!
> Someone posted a cool YouTube video a couple months back. @Cmason1954 or @sour_grapes maybe. Running tests on glass under vacuum.
> 
> The glass was ALOT thinner than a carboy. And then they started scratching the hell out of it too.
> Never imploded. Then for entertainment they went crazy on the scratches and the vacuum to implode it but only got ended up with a crack.


Yep, it was me. It's always hard for me to find this video again, but here it is. . 

You won't implode one, is the bottom line.


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## Johnd (Feb 14, 2020)

Additionally, for many years, I’ve been degassing with a vacuum pump capable of pulling 29 inHg, it degasses any wine in minutes with no oxygen exposure. I’ve PERSONALLY vacuumed an empty 6 gallon glass carboy down to 29 inHg with no problems at all.


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## dmguptill (Feb 14, 2020)

I was happy to get the AIO pump because I had problems getting all the gas out by whipping. I tried warming the wine up first, buying new, more efficient whips, etc. Often had detectable CO2 left. I've never understood how people get away with whip degassing for less than 5 minutes. Never worked well for me. Maybe I was doing something wrong.


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## kevinlfifer (Feb 14, 2020)

I stopped degassing with the stirrer a couple years ago. I keep it in carboy 9 mo + and let it degas on it's own. I could only do that after I built up an inventory of drinkable wine. Doing so allows tartrate to fall out and gives time for all particulates to settle. I took 5 years for me to develop such patience. I rack it every 4 mo or so.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 14, 2020)

A Better bottle will start to pull in at 5 inches Hg vacuum, Using a 12 volt vacuum pump ($18) from the science supply house I can pull 19 inches Hg. The big difference with the plastic pumps will be you aren’t capable of pulling a large volume of gas coming out of solution, how fast do you want to be?


kuziwk said:


> I'll google it when I get a chance, I might have an 12 v RV pump kicking around. Has anyone imploded a carboy with Al that negative pressure? Lol


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## kuziwk (Feb 14, 2020)

dmguptill said:


> I was happy to get the AIO pump because I had problems getting all the gas out by whipping. I tried warming the wine up first, buying new, more efficient whips, etc. Often had detectable CO2 left. I've never understood how people get away with whip degassing for less than 5 minutes. Never worked well for me. Maybe I was doing something wrong.



Perhaps it has something to do with barometric pressure, higher altitudes, humidity ect. Some climates might be easier to degas and other might hold onto that c02


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## kuziwk (Feb 14, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> Perhaps it has something to do with barometric pressure, higher altitudes, humidity ect. Some climates might be easier to degas and other might hold onto that c02





Rice_Guy said:


> A Better bottle will start to pull in at 5 inches Hg vacuum, Using a 12 volt vacuum pump ($18) from the science supply house I can pull 19 inches Hg. The big difference with the plastic pumps will be you aren’t capable of pulling a large volume of gas coming out of solution, how fast do you want to be?


What does it mean to pull in "inches" of vacuum? How do you measure the inches?


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 14, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> Perhaps it has something to do with barometric pressure, higher altitudes, humidity ect. Some climates might be easier to degas and other might hold onto that c02


* opinion, a little CO2 doesn’t matter, is adds sharpness to flavor and most consumers won’t pick up on it. CO2 is reductive and helps prevent oxidation.
* solubility; Henry’s Law, , solubility is linear with atmospheric pressure and percentage in the atmosphere. Therefore a vacuum reduces pressure and it comes out faster. Therefore pulling with a higher volume reduces the percentage in the head space so it comes out faster. This effect is primarily on the surface, therefore pumping through 3/8 inch tubing exposes a larger surface so it comes out faster, and therefore mixing with a whip moves saturated wine to the surface so it comes out of solution. (however a small propeller at 1 rpm mixes better than a whip)
* humidity has no effect, climate has no effect
* warmer temperature increases the rate, coming out of solution absorbs heat.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 14, 2020)

The old system was have mercury in a U tube and actually measure the difference, today it is done with a gauge. We also talk about feet of water column (an air lock holds about one inch difference) and if metric Kpa.


kuziwk said:


> What does it mean to pull in "inches" of vacuum? How do you measure the inches?


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## Wayne Freeman (Feb 14, 2020)

Although I have the AIO wine pump I use it for everything but degassing. Racking and bottling are far more important uses for it.

For degassing, I've repurposed (or added a purpose for) the AIO Head Space Eliminator. I have an old Vacu-Vin and have combined that with the head space eliminator. I've posted about this before, with photo. 

Here's the link to that post: Oct 20, 2019

It takes a few days to degas completely but I don't have to open the carboy and don't have to introduce any air or oxygen into the wine. Plus, I get a little exercise out of the process!


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## kuziwk (Feb 14, 2020)

Wayne Freeman said:


> Although I have the AIO wine pump I use it for everything but degassing. Racking and bottling are far more important uses for it.
> 
> For degassing, I've repurposed (or added a purpose for) the AIO Head Space Eliminator. I have an old Vacu-Vin and have combined that with the head space eliminator. I've posted about this before, with photo.
> 
> ...



How many pumps does it take?

Also I thought a little bit of oxygen, such as through rackings helps with aging, why go through the trouble of vacuum racking?
Commercial wineries age in oak which also expose the wine to oxygen, this makes the wine subjectively better.


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## Wayne Freeman (Feb 14, 2020)

I never count the pumps. I pump for maybe a minute or so each time, until it's bubbling pretty well. Of course, after a few days, the bubbling decreases and I have to look closer to find any bubbles. It also depends on how much head space there is. I'll do this every time I make a trip down to the basement for any reason at all, which is several times a day (the garage and freezer are on the same floor as the wine cellar). It usually takes a week or so to degas. I figure it's a more natural method, like what happens in an oak barrel due to the slight negative pressure from the wine's soaking into the wood and evaporation.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 14, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> How many pumps does it take?
> 
> Also I thought a little bit of oxygen, such as through rackings helps with aging, why go through the trouble of vacuum racking?
> Commercial wineries age in oak which also expose the wine to oxygen, this makes the wine subjectively better.



There is a difference between gross oxygen exposure and micro-oxidation created by the pores in an oak barrel.


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## kuziwk (Feb 14, 2020)

DoctorCAD said:


> There is a difference between gross oxygen exposure and micro-oxidation created by the pores in an oak barrel.


Right but racking from the bottom up...is it really that bad? Other than that we are not getting any other form of oxygen into a sealed up carboy. It would be cool if we had some sort of micro oxy units to mimic a barrel.


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## Johnd (Feb 14, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> Right but racking from the bottom up...is it really that bad? Other than that we are not getting any other form of oxygen into a sealed up carboy. It would be cool if we had some sort of micro oxy units to mimic a barrel.



The microx units you speak of already exist, they are very expensive. Barrels and flex tanks are your best bang for the buck. Flex tanks don’t provide oak taste in your wine, you must use adjuncts to do that.


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## Amanda660 (Feb 15, 2020)

I used to whip to degas but now just let time do it for me. I really think I'm making better wine going the slow road  I also think racking my wines with my AIO has been a game-changer - swear by that piece of equipment.


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## kuziwk (Feb 16, 2020)

Johnd said:


> The microx units you speak of already exist, they are very expensive. Barrels and flex tanks are your best bang for the buck. Flex tanks don’t provide oak taste in your wine, you must use adjuncts to do that.


I've heard of flex tanks, can you get them in 23L? I like the idea of having more control with the oak flavor and being able to see the level through a flex tank to know when to top up.


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## kuziwk (Feb 16, 2020)

Amanda660 said:


> I used to whip to degas but now just let time do it for me. I really think I'm making better wine going the slow road  I also think racking my wines with my AIO has been a game-changer - swear by that piece of equipment.



Yes I also bulk age without clearing agents for 10-12 months on the big reds. So you're saying I should skip degassing at all and just rack every 3 months or so? I just like to get rid of the gas so the bulk of the sediment drops out quicker.


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## Johnd (Feb 16, 2020)

kuziwk said:


> I've heard of flex tanks, can you get them in 23L? I like the idea of having more control with the oak flavor and being able to see the level through a flex tank to know when to top up.



Google is your friend : https://flextank.com/products-tanks.php


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## CDrew (Feb 16, 2020)

Smallest flextank is 15 gallons, and smallest practical Flex tank is 30 gallons. ( I say this because you have to get to the 30 gallon Flextank to use the bottom spout sanitary fittings). There are no 5 gallon flex tanks.

You can get 5 gallon Intellitanks, but they don't really emphasize micro-oxidation. They are more like a HDPE carboy with good fittings. I use the 15 gallon Intellitanks and think they are great and a practical solution for the home wine maker.

Assuming you age 12 months and rack a few times, "degassing" is not a step you need to worry about.

The Allinone is a nice unit and really helps with racking chores even in carboys. But if that is too expensive, any vacuum pump can be made to work and do the same job. You'll just have to figure out the plumbing yourself. I have an allinone that I use and also have a hospital surplus suction pump that moves more air and thus racks things faster. But once you use vacuum to rack, you'll never do it any other way until you make big volumes and positive pressure pump it. It seems like a lot of cash at first, but after your first racking you'll realize it's worth.

But if this is all for kit wines, meant to drink young, it probably doesn't matter if you micro-oxygenate or not. Bottle at a year and they will likely be plenty "degassed".


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 17, 2020)

The easiest to find 23 liter vessel is a LDPE jug as used for camping. It is rated at 8586 cc oxygen per square foot *day. For reference a Better Bottle is PET which should be 35.5 (depends on thickness) or an EVOH wine bag which is rated at 0.1 to1.9. (Bag in Box) I haven’t seen similar numbers on wood barrels.


kuziwk said:


> I've heard of flex tanks, can you get them in 23L?



Note they flex so this test has a check valve. , , this is about 4 gallons squashed in the milk crate


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## StreetGlide (Feb 17, 2020)

Knowing what I know now, I am so sorry I did not buy an AIO sooner. Without question I’d never be without one again. It just makes this hobby so much easier that it’s worth every penny to me.


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

Wayne Freeman said:


> Although I have the AIO wine pump I use it for everything but degassing. Racking and bottling are far more important uses for it.
> 
> For degassing, I've repurposed (or added a purpose for) the AIO Head Space Eliminator. I have an old Vacu-Vin and have combined that with the head space eliminator. I've posted about this before, with photo.
> 
> ...


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Yep, it was me. It's always hard for me to find this video again, but here it is. .
> 
> You won't implode one, is the bottom line.




Nope. You're. Just. Wrong.

It happened to me about 10 years ago when a 6 1/2 gallon glass carboy failed under a closed vacuum. The faith you put in a random YouTube video by some random dude who happened to NOT implode a carboy is dangerous. Neither he nor you have any grasp of the hazards involved.

I had vacuum degassed carboys many times before my incident, but this time it happened suddenly and without warning, and it failed catastrophically. Your blanket statement that it WON'T happen and anyone who says so is a LIAR are demonstrably WRONG. 

Sorry, but you don't know how misinformed you are. Your 'opinion' has no basis in fact, regardless of how many YouTube videos you dredge up to 'prove' your 'belief'.

If this post seems hostile, I apologize. It's just that the risks are too great to other people's safety to let your post go unchallenged. My experience (as well as science) show the fallacy of your position. 

WineDad


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Additionally, for many years, I’ve been degassing with a vacuum pump capable of pulling 29 inHg, it degasses any wine in minutes with no oxygen exposure. I’ve PERSONALLY vacuumed an empty 6 gallon glass carboy down to 29 inHg with no problems at all.



So anecdotally you've had a carboy withstand approximately 2 atm of negative pressure. Which exactly proves that you (once, according to your account) successfully depressurized an empty carboy to less than -29 psi and it didn't fail. Once. That time. One off. Random chance. Dumb luck (emphasis on 'dumb').

I had repeatedly duplicated that process many times before I imploded a carboy full of wine under less pressure. My experience proves that it _*can*_ happen. Yours 'proves' that it _didn't. _Once.

Blindly wishing and believing it _won't_ happen to you makes you a prime candidate for a Darwinian Award. Given the potential risk for catastrophic failure, why would you take the chance?

There are alternative ways to degas with a partial pressure that don't involve the grave personal risk involved with a closed vacuum of a glass carboy.

WineDad


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## cmason1957 (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> Nope. You're. Just. Wrong.
> 
> <......>
> If this post seems hostile, I apologize. It's just that the risks are too great to other people's safety to let your post go unchallenged. My experience (as well as science) show the fallacy of your position.
> ...



Okay, so you feel I'm wrong, and you are absolutely certain it was the use of vacuum that caused the failure.

Maybe, maybe not.

Perhaps I was a bit over the top saying you can't implode them, but I didn't and I won't call anyone a Liar.

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> So anecdotally you've had a carboy withstand approximately 2 atm of negative pressure. . . . . . and it didn't fail. Once. That time. One off. Random chance. Dumb luck (emphasis on 'dumb').


* there is wisdom in not pushing the equipment, eventually if we go beyond design* it will break* and even at design spec it breaks after years of use
* need to read back a few posts to what you are referring to , , , , but it is extremely hard to go beyond one atmosphere of vacuum unless you are living in a pressure vessel as a diving chamber, , , , even with a diffusion pump in the lab.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> I had repeatedly duplicated that process many times before I imploded a carboy full of wine under less pressure. My experience proves that it _*can*_ happen. Yours 'proves' that it _didn't. _Once.



I am interested in learning the details of your experience. I have also (successfully) evacuated carboys to low pressures, but I have also seen catastrophic failures with laboratory glassware due to evacuation. Therefore, although I do evacuate carboys, I am always wary. (Those laboratory cases were due to people using the wrong glassware, so not fully relevant here, other than to inform of the dangers.)

We are listening and I believe you, so you do not need to be defensive or strike out at others who contend differently. I hope that we can learn from your experience.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 27, 2020)

Comin out guns blazin! Lol
Hey @WineDad - I made the comment about ‘anyone who says they have is a liar!’ Obviously that’s not meant in a literal way so don’t be so offended. 

But if you insist on being hostile then direct it at me please. 

And of course there’s always exceptions. But the only thing this proves is that there were extra variables involved causing it. Because under normal working conditions this DOESNT happen. I’ve pulled vacuums on countless carboys countless times. On demijohns- large glass bubbles with thin glass. On very old carboys with scratches. Small jugs. Everything. 

Not just me though. 1 incident out of thousands upon thousands of accounts of carboys under a vacuum seal w/o incident. The sky is not falling. Please stop trying to put the fear of god into anyone using a vacuum pump. And try not to be so condescending while your at it. 

A shame. Coulda been a nice discussion about your vacuum incident and the potential causes.


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

Sorry if I came on too strong. If it's not apparent, it's a topic I feel strongly about. Ten years after the event it still rattles me to think of what _could have_ happened. I don't want anyone else to stumble into something I should have known better not to do.

I've got more than a little experience with fluids under pressure (positive and negative). It's amazing what negative pressure can do, even to steel tanks. At least steel is high strength and _will_ flex a little before failing. Glass is brittle and fails when deformed, usually catastrophically.

Like everyone else I've broken my share of bottles, beakers, hydrometers, thermometers, jars and jugs, usually through carelessness or inattention. That carboy imploded while doing something I'd done many times before without any indication it was unsafe or about to fail.

As I said, I should have known better. It's my hope that other's can learn from my mistake. Carboys DO break under vacuum and there's no way of knowing if, when, under what pressure or after how many cycles it might occur. To believe otherwise is simply whistling past the graveyard. 

WineDad


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

There are safe ways to use a vacuum pump to degas. But one of those ways is _not_ by creating a 2 atm underpressure in a glass carboy. Even if failure only happens "maybe 1 in a thousand times", is that an acceptable risk? Based on the potential for personal injury, would it be acceptable if a carboy burst like the one in the YouTube video if you wife or child happened to walk by just when it let go?

Me either.

WineDad


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## sour_grapes (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> There are safe ways to use a vacuum pump to degas. But one of those ways is _not_ by creating a 2 atm underpressure in a glass carboy. Even if failure only happens "maybe 1 in a thousand times", is that an acceptable risk? Based on the potential for personal injury, would it be acceptable if a carboy burst like the one in the YouTube video if you wife or child happened to walk by just when it let go?
> 
> Me either.
> 
> WineDad



I am not disagreeing with you, just wanted to clarify something before someone else jumps on you: As pointed out above, you cannot create a 2 atm. underpressure. You can only create a 1 atm. underpressure.

While I am at it (and here I am speaking to the group, not to you specifically), I do not believe it makes much difference whether you pull 25 inHg or 29. That is like being concerned about whether your driveway will crack if you park a 7000 lb truck or an 8000 lb truck on it.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> There are safe ways to use a vacuum pump to degas.


I am reminded of being 26 or 27 and someone in the plant emptied a tank without checking the relief valve. They imploded it, only happened once since everyone walking by could see it and say s#*&[email protected] ! ! Don’t think they worked there long.

A full carboy/or tank is relatively safe.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 27, 2020)

There is no way in the world I'm going to stop using the AIO whether is be racking, bottling or degassing. In my 3 years of wine making I personally used a vacuum on over a thousand glass vessels. Add that to all the members on the forum that that have been making it a lot longer than me and your 1 in a thousand is ridiculously low.


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I am interested in learning the details of your experience. I have also (successfully) evacuated carboys to low pressures, but I have also seen catastrophic failures with laboratory glassware due to evacuation. Therefore, although I do evacuate carboys, I am always wary. (Those laboratory cases were due to people using the wrong glassware, so not fully relevant here, other than to inform of the dangers.)
> 
> We are listening and I believe you, so you do not need to be defensive or strike out at others who contend differently. I hope that we can learn from your experience.



I was using an Enol vacuum bottling machine to draw a negative pressure inside a 6.5 gallon carboy (plain heavy duty blown glass, not borosilicate, not 'safety' glass; just plain glass). It was a procedure I had done frequently before without incident to degas wine. The carboy was one of several (10+) I had used before in wine making and bottling/de-gassing. It had roughly 6 gallons of fermented and fined wine that was being degassed before racking for bulk aging. The carboy was not "laboratory" grade, but I don't know of any that are.

There is no pressure gauge on the Enolmatic and there was no inline gauge to measure the vacuum, so I don't know what the vacuum draw was in Hg, psi or hectopascals. There were no visible scratches or production flaws on the carboy. It had been purchased new from a local wine and homebrew store.

My procedure at the time was to degas under vacuum for 10 or 15 minutes before racking while tending to other tasks. The process had been going on for probably 5 minutes with minor bubbles and surface foaming visible as CO2 came out of solution. 

Without being moved or jostled, the carboy suddenly sheared radially around the bottom third of the carboy spilling wine over my entire work surface (plywood) as well as everything in the storage area under it. Without even considering the consequences I rushed across the workspace to turn off the pump before it shorted and grabbed the shattered carboy to place it in a laundry sink. Still not thinking, I started grabbing shards without gloved hands and began mopping up 6 gallons of prime Chardonnay amongst the shattered fragments. 

Soon rational thought returned and it dawned on me to check for lacerations, blood and missing didgets. I could have slashed a wrist or sliced through a femoral artery and bled out on the basement floor (home alone). Not pleasant thoughts.

One nasty cleanup. Needless to say, it was the last time I degassed that way.

WineDad


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## Johnd (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> So anecdotally you've had a carboy withstand approximately 2 atm of negative pressure. Which exactly proves that you (once, according to your account) successfully depressurized an empty carboy to less than -29 psi and it didn't fail. Once. That time. One off. Random chance. Dumb luck (emphasis on 'dumb').
> 
> I had repeatedly duplicated that process many times before I imploded a carboy full of wine under less pressure. My experience proves that it _*can*_ happen. Yours 'proves' that it _didn't. _Once.
> 
> ...



I’ve vacuumed glass carboys hundreds, if not thousands of times, you can cram your Darwinian Award up your ass douche bag.


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

Johnd said:


> I’ve vacuumed glass carboys hundreds, if not thousands of times, you can cram your Darwinian Award up your ass douche bag.



Large Member. Small hands? Some kinda mature discourse, there Bubba. 

If/when you sober up maybe we can have an adult conversation. Until then, good luck with your vacuum degassing. At some point in time you may really need it.

Buh Bye


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## kuziwk (Feb 27, 2020)

....right...well...how about that corona virus


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## WineDad (Feb 27, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I am not disagreeing with you, just wanted to clarify something before someone else jumps on you: As pointed out above, you cannot create a 2 atm. underpressure. You can only create a 1 atm. underpressure.
> 
> While I am at it (and here I am speaking to the group, not to you specifically), I do not believe it makes much difference whether you pull 25 inHg or 29. That is like being concerned about whether your driveway will crack if you park a 7000 lb truck or an 8000 lb truck on it.



So, I never said I had pulled a 2 atm vacuum. I replied to a post saying the poster had pulled a 29 psi vacuum. If one atm is 14.7 psi, twice that number is ~29 psi or 2 atm. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## Johnd (Feb 27, 2020)

WineDad said:


> Large Member. Small hands? Some kinda mature discourse, there Bubba.
> 
> If/when you sober up maybe we can have an adult conversation. Until then, good luck with your vacuum degassing. At some point in time you may really need it.
> 
> Buh Bye



I’m perfectly capable of a mature discussion, but also capable of responding to disrespectful discourse in kind. There’s a level of human respect and decorum here that clearly escapes you, we disagree regularly without belittling or disrespect. 
If you’re now attempting our second shot at mature discourse by starting off with a lame penis size reference and the implication that I’m drunk, and may just stay that way indefinitely, you’re clearly off your rocker. Recall, you started this “mature discourse” with insults, not I. 

Very few folks get off to such a great start on this forum, congratulations are in order.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 28, 2020)

Guess I'm lucky - I've never had to de-gass. I believe if you age a wine long enough in bulk, it will de-gass itself, one more reason to age in bulk. Never had a pop from pressure when I pulled a cork or a fizzy wine. 

Vaccuum racking for me would have ONE appeal, Not having to lift heavy carboys - that, at some point might be reason enough for me to do it.


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## dmguptill (Feb 28, 2020)

Seems to me that vacuum racking as a means of degassing (like what is done with the AIO) is going to result in a much lower vacuum than if you simply seal up your carboy and pull a vacuum on it. Since the wine is continually filling in the void made by the pump. So much lower probability of implosion in that scenario than one where you're decreasing pressure as much as possible on a full carboy without racking.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 28, 2020)

One thing I would point out, is that, if you vacuum rack, you never keep the carboy under vacuum pressure for an extended period of time, it is only there as long as it takes to rack and for a six gallon carboy that is under 5 minutes. 

Oh well, the chance for an intelligent discussion was lost. I wonder if the issue was just the carboy broke, as has happened to others while the carboy was just sitting there and the vacuum was being blamed unfairly.


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## ThunderFred (Feb 28, 2020)

You heartless monsters! He TOUCHED BROKEN GLASS!!!!11!!1 Another potential victim of senseless vacuum-carboy murder, America's #1 under-reported crime. WineTroll I mean WineDad is just trying to save lives. You'll see how funny it is when you pick up broken glass in your wine room and your uncaring family finds you months later dead on the floor in a pool of dried chardonay and blood!!!!!

I'm with WineTroll I mean WindeDad on this one. Just to be safe I threw out my vacuum cleaner and boarded up all the windows on my house. This thread has literally saved my life!!!!


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## Johnd (Feb 28, 2020)

ThunderFred said:


> You heartless monsters! He TOUCHED BROKEN GLASS!!!!11!!1 Another potential victim of senseless vacuum-carboy murder, America's #1 under-reported crime. WineTroll I mean WineDad is just trying to save lives. You'll see how funny it is when you pick up broken glass in your wine room and your uncaring family finds you months later dead on the floor in a pool of dried chardonay and blood!!!!!
> 
> I'm with WineTroll I mean WindeDad on this one. Just to be safe I threw out my vacuum cleaner and boarded up all the windows on my house. This thread has literally saved my life!!!!



LOL!! Seriously though, there’s always room for intelligent discussion centered around winemaking, but never room for attacking and / or belittling other members. Kudos to our moderators for their work behind the scenes maintaining the level of decorum and respect for the members that is appropriate. I’m always up for an intelligent disagreement, and always have much to learn about this hobby / art / obsession, but can’t stand to see folks attacked by a bully. If any of you were offended by my response to him, I apologize for my words, and stand by the intent.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 28, 2020)

I just can't tell you how hard it was to hold back. This is the only forum I ever belonged to and I constantly tell people how cordial and helpful everyone is. Glad he's gone.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 28, 2020)

One thing I’d never do is run a continuous vacuum to degas a carboy. Plenty of co2 is removed doing transfers, bottling, and pulling headspace o2 (takes 10-30 seconds) But if one wanted to solely degas then isn’t recommended procedure to pull a vacuum until the co2 fizz forms a bit, then stopping and allowing it to dissipate before running again?. 
I’ve only seen Steve’s AIO claim degassing as an intended use for a vacuum pump - is this possibly for liability reasons? Not to say it’s probable that carboys start imploding if running the pump for a while- but I’m sure it doesn’t help. 

I’d like to clear the air anyone able to confirm following statements?
1. Vacuum pumps for transferring & bottling wine will degas as a byproduct of intended use- allowing a product to claim it degasses wine. 
2. If you DO decide to pull a vacuum solely to remove co2- running the pump continuously is NOT advised. 
3. There is little to no risk of imploding carboys/lifelong PTSD when properly using an AIO or similar pumps.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 28, 2020)

Johnd said:


> If any of you were offended by my response to him, I apologize for my words,




Na, but this apology offends me!


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## Johnd (Feb 28, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Na, but this apology offends me!



That just means that it wasn’t intended for you, as you were obviously not offended.....plus, I suspect you’d have responded similarly were the tables turned.


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## Johnd (Feb 28, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> I’d like to clear the air anyone able to confirm following statements?
> 1. Vacuum pumps for transferring & bottling wine will degas as a byproduct of intended use- allowing a product to claim it degasses wine.
> 2. If you DO decide to pull a vacuum solely to remove co2- running the pump continuously is NOT advised.
> 3. There is little to no risk of imploding carboys/lifelong PTSD when properly using an AIO or similar pumps.



1. I agree with the statement
2. Mostly agree. When you initially start degassing, so much CO2 / foam develops, that you need to shut it on and off to avoid sucking foam. Once the little bubbles give way to larger ones, you’re done anyway, so there’s no need to continue, don’t know why anyone would. 
3. The AIO won’t pull a vacuum down to 29 inHg like an HVAC type vacuum pump can, I recall Steve saying it was Lin the 22 - 25 range. Having pulled 29 on carboys full of wine to degas countless times, I still believe there’s little to no risk if your carboy doesn’t have some defect, be it inferior glass, a manufacturing defect like a thin spot, a previously existing cracked or damaged area. Can you ever say that anything is completely impossible and will absolutely never happen? Of course not, nothing in life has those sorts of guarantees. You take bigger risks every day just driving a car. If it were an impending disaster, you’d have read about it here and folks wouldn’t be using the AIO and other vacuum racking tools.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 28, 2020)

Johnd said:


> That just means that it wasn’t intended for you, as you were obviously not offended.....plus, I suspect you’d have responded similarly were the tables turned.



Lol. Good intuition. 

Curious now- what’s the “large member” bio origin?


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## Johnd (Feb 29, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Lol. Good intuition.
> 
> Curious now- what’s the “large member” bio origin?



I’m 6’-4” and 260#, figured I’d qualify...., not old enough for senior member, LOL!


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 29, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> anyone able to confirm following statements?
> 1. Vacuum pumps for transferring & bottling wine will degas as a byproduct of intended use- allowing a product to claim it degasses wine.
> 2. If you DO decide to pull a vacuum solely to remove co2- running the pump continuously is NOT advised.
> 3. There is little to no risk of imploding carboys/lifelong PTSD when properly using an AIO or similar pumps.


* Transferring at a low vacuum as 5 inches Hg will degas the wine. Much of the magic in this is that fresh surface area is exposed so that gas is continuously pulled off, , this also is the magic of using a wine whip at ambient pressure.
* Using an AC pump it will eventually reach a point where mechanically it has reached its limit. At this point no mass is pulled out of the vessel/ the pump is just spinning. If one has a check valve they can maintain the state/ allow CO2 to come out slowly and save energy. , , Steve will point out that his head space eliminator is expected to hold a vacuum measured with the suction bulb about 2 weeks. The AC vacuum pump is designed to operate continuously when it is removing moisture from a new AC install.
* If we read posts in WMT we can collect a data set on risk. It seems to be less than 1 time out of 10,000. As with all risk, , (as breaking a carboy Swishing cleaner at the sink ) , , it exists so we should be careful. , , , ie I have broken more glass cleaning.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 29, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> . As with all risk, , (as breaking a carboy Swishing cleaner at the sink ) , , it exists so we should be careful. , , , ie I have broken more glass cleaning.



Yep. Heard that.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 29, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Yep. Heard that. View attachment 59083



Is this recent or an old pic you saved.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 29, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Is this recent or an old pic you saved.



Couple years old. And have respected just how slippery PBW can be ever since.


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## Swedeman (Mar 1, 2020)

Quoting myself:

"It is well documented that low fermentation temperature, due to less vigorous fermentation, preserve wine flavor as less volatile compounds is lost. Applying vacuum seems less attractive to me for the very same reason, any thoughts on that?"


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## Obbnw (Mar 1, 2020)

Just wandered through this thread and have one comment. 

Pressure in inches-hg is not psi. Psi is roughly 1/2 inches-hg. IE 29 inches- hg is about 14.5psi.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 1, 2020)

Swedeman said:


> Quoting myself:
> 
> "It is well documented that low fermentation temperature, due to less vigorous fermentation, preserve wine flavor as less volatile compounds is lost. Applying vacuum seems less attractive to me for the very same reason, any thoughts on that?"



Never heard that before. I think it’s less about the vacuum and more about co2 removal and o2 exposure when it comes to degassing. 
1. Vacuum transferring while letting co2 dissipate over time is minimal time under vacuum. Body armor slowly removed and strong o2 tolerance formed by barrel aging or normal handling over time. 
2. pulling Vacuum to remove all the co2 soon after AF =no body armor and delicate, easily affected by normal handling. 
3. Degassing by manual agitation removes co2 but also takes on some o2 = no armor but but can better take an o2 punch. 
But the vacuum itself I don’t think puts those compounds at risk. things like removing all co2 at once, zero or excessive o2 exposure, or filtering/fining agents theoretically could. Color compounds probably 1st casualties. But with medium quality fruit and an average joe palate all these differences might be minimal anyway. But could turn world class grapes into either good wine or great wine. 

Keep in mind I’m just a carpenter- not a scientist. Just talkin shop here. Its all relative anyway. I think as long as the winemaker justifies decisions with logic then they aren’t ever wrong. Many times that logic is - “because it’s just a hobby, I’m comfortable doing it this way, and never had a problem doing it before.” Can’t argue with that.


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