# to each their own,,,,



## hounddawg (Jun 8, 2020)

i've long pondered the way some if not most use mathematics equations , and complicated formulas to make your wines, such adherandance to wine making, where as i just go with the flow, after several years of pondering,, i have decided yawls enjoyment to your ways are as enjoyable to yawl as my ways are to me, , i can see now that your ways are as enjoyable to yawl as my ways are to me, after all after patience,,, is pleasing to ones self,, which is the entire point,
Dawg,,,,


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## BernardSmith (Jun 9, 2020)

Hmmm... I think that the numbers are more about arithmetic than mathematics when we are talking about wine making. But I suspect that the value of numbers really turns on a desire for control. 

You may be able to make a great wine every time you pitch your yeast but each batch you make may be very different from any other batch you make - even when you use what are ostensibly the same ingredients. Numbers used as targets help you make the current batch taste more like a clone of the previous one. 

Related to consistency is the ability through numbers to control outcomes rather than leave everything to chance. If I know the TA of this batch of hibiscus wine and I know that it is OK but could be more (or less) tart, then I know what TA I need to aim for for my next batch - all other things being equal (ABV, sweetness, tannin levels etc) . 

In short , numbers are about control and highlight their use points to whether the wine maker leaves more or fewer things to chance and luck


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## hounddawg (Jun 9, 2020)

Welp, in the hills away from sophisticated folk like you for generations we have done just fine, mathematics or arithmetics, split any hair you wish, to be honest, yawls best has been boones farm , tj swan and mad dog,,,, you are free to suit yourself, because you can bet your bottom dollar. i'm only worried about suiting myself period, see how nice that is? and nare a true country wine is ever described as earthy (dirt) chalky (tasted that back in school) leather (so sad) ,,, naw i'm cool with the country way, like i said suit yourself, because you can bet, I am,,,,,,,,
Dawg






BernardSmith said:


> Hmmm... I think that the numbers are more about arithmetic than mathematics when we are talking about wine making. But I suspect that the value of numbers really turns on a desire for control.
> 
> You may be able to make a great wine every time you pitch your yeast but each batch you make may be very different from any other batch you make - even when you use what are ostensibly the same ingredients. Numbers used as targets help you make the current batch taste more like a clone of the previous one.
> 
> ...


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## 1d10t (Jun 9, 2020)

Math explains the physical world. It doesn't define it. Do you measure anything in your wine making? 1 pack of yeast? 2 pounds of sugar? It's all math.


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## hounddawg (Jun 9, 2020)

1d10t said:


> Math explains the physical world. It doesn't define it. Do you measure anything in your wine making? 1 pack of yeast? 2 pounds of sugar? It's all math.


you asking me?


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## hounddawg (Jun 9, 2020)

i measure everything, i keep track of everything, but i sure don;t agonize over trying to match any ones preconceived expectations, or copy any wine you'll find on any rack, to those that do i have no problem with, but it sure seems funny that my ways get such scrutiny, do my own thing and have no problem with those that do as they please, i make what i please , and no one else should have a problem with that, i have never made any wine that i did not do from scratch, no kits, no grapes, to those that do i'm cool with that, as i said suit ones self, as for educating me on what defines the world, please,,, if you aint fond of my opinions you are free to breeze on by, as i said you do your way ,, i.ll dang sure do my ways, from generations of old timers that learned to make very good wines with out trying to copy others ways?,, so dose my ways needle you ?, if so why,, i came here in peace, my tannings come from crabapples, , i grow most of my fruits and berries, i use 243 feet deep well water running through lime stone, i'm as free to suit myself as you are, since i have no problem with you suiting yourself it makes me wonder, why you worry how i do my ways,,, Funny Huh,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 9, 2020)

1d10t said:


> Math explains the physical world. It doesn't define it. Do you measure anything in your wine making? 1 pack of yeast? 2 pounds of sugar? It's all math.


never said it wasn't did i ?


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## hounddawg (Jun 9, 2020)

i am here to broadening my horizons, not to debate or argue \, some get peddy , why i don't know, i have zero problem with those that make grape wines, why the itch about country wines,
DAWG


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## robert81650 (Jun 10, 2020)

Get um Dawg....... I make all kinds of wines, mainly fruit juice wine from peaches, plums, apples, oranges, kits and the like. I please my own taste and no one else’s.......


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## robert81650 (Jun 10, 2020)

I try to go by the seemingly simple winemaking rules that apply, but I do mainly what I like to do.


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## hounddawg (Jun 10, 2020)

robert81650 said:


> I try to go by the seemingly simple winemaking rules that apply, but I do mainly what I like to do.


as do i. but i'll be dang if i'll worry about parts per million,,,,gallon-pint-quart, 
that's what gets me, in this post all i said i could see how others enjoy all that figuring, when a bit of well water some sugar, fruits an/or berries and yeast along with my trusty hydrometer, i've got a ph meter and other toys, but jeeze , i explained how i could see how they enjoyed fretting, as i enjoy of instinct and taste, but ole well, hehe no worries till you hear, HEY YAWL WATCH THIS, lol
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 10, 2020)

robert81650 said:


> Get um Dawg....... I make all kinds of wines, mainly fruit juice wine from peaches, plums, apples, oranges, kits and the like. I please my own taste and no one else’s.......


you're a manure stirrer lol. i like that about you,,,,,, and heck yeah, your wines sound great to me, i like those who walk their own walk, we are the sheep that eat the wolves,,,,,,
Dawg


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## cideriswine (Jun 10, 2020)

About 20 seasons ago, I bought grapes from a local grower and made my first wine. I followed what books told me and added this and that to change the grape juice into something it was "supposed" to be, but after a few years I realized I didn't know what I was doing, didn't have sophisticated measuring equipment and decided to take the lazy approach. The wine will be what it is. Its going to be different every year.
I'm not going to intervene. If I don't like it, I'll blend it, distill it or dump it.
After a while I realized that if you start out with good ingredients, the wine almost makes itself, you don't have to do a whole lot to make good wine. Most of my effort goes into getting good grapes or juice.


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## wood1954 (Jun 11, 2020)

I started making wine because so many commercial wines I can afford are too acidic, too tannic or just poorly made. I use PH numbers to determine how much so2 to use to protect my wine. Use math to decide how much potassium bicarbonate to add, I used to be more concerned about TA and measuring free so2. Now I add minimum amounts of so2 and don’t worry. I measure SG so I know how much alcohol I’ll have. Basic wine making can be easy if the right ingredients are used with good fruit. I’m closing in on my style of wine that I like, I do make wine for family as well but it’s usually a kit and I just follow instructions. Country wine making is fun, I’ve made very good blackberry and blueberry wines and some really bad apple and strawberry wine as well as bad pie cherry wine.


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## hounddawg (Jun 11, 2020)

wood1954 said:


> I started making wine because so many commercial wines I can afford are too acidic, too tannic or just poorly made. I use PH numbers to determine how much so2 to use to protect my wine. Use math to decide how much potassium bicarbonate to add, I used to be more concerned about TA and measuring free so2. Now I add minimum amounts of so2 and don’t worry. I measure SG so I know how much alcohol I’ll have. Basic wine making can be easy if the right ingredients are used with good fruit. I’m closing in on my style of wine that I like, I do make wine for family as well but it’s usually a kit and I just follow instructions. Country wine making is fun, I’ve made very good blackberry and blueberry wines and some really bad apple and strawberry wine as well as bad pie cherry wine.


you'll get there strawberry tart/sour cherry, sweet cherry taste like cough syrup, and yes agreed basic math is needed, but parts per million is only needed for coping commercial, i've made mass amounts of country wines all are very good, not only to me but to many others in my neck of the woods, when working commercial retail, once i spent a couple grand on 2 bottles of wine, one sip o f each and i poured them down the drain, now very old cognac, oh my gawd you wanna talk good, FMAR, that is divine to say the least,,,
Dawg


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## zelix (Jun 11, 2020)

I wish I could just 'freestyle' it. I'm on my first kit. I'm following everything to the letter. I'm guessing I should follow the rules to learn them. When I get a few batches under my belt I'll jump out doing my own thing. I do want to get into country wines. It's something I'm reading up on at this very moment.


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## Ajmassa (Jun 11, 2020)

well I’m a city boy. Never really even heard of country fruit wine till saw it on this forum. I grew up with winemaking. But we lived in small rowhomes with no property to grow fruit.

family would buy grapes or juice from a local distributor and make their dinner vino supply for the year. process was simple & old school tho they still had their little tricks and techniques they used. But was more about family then it was the wine.

I took that style and now with the internet was able to add my own style and improve the wine.
And mainly— I ENJOY IT and learning little nuances about the process. It’s fun for me. And I have No hate for anyone else’s style. 

But not sure why your so defensive dawg. Have people been giving you sh*t about your winemaking ?


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## hounddawg (Jun 11, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> well I’m a city boy. Never really even heard of country fruit wine till saw it on this forum. I grew up with winemaking. But we lived in small rowhomes with no property to grow fruit.
> 
> family would buy grapes or juice from a local distributor and make their dinner vino supply for the year. process was simple & old school tho they still had their little tricks and techniques they used. But was more about family then it was the wine.
> 
> ...


a few don't care for my lack of traditional style, i've tried to make some understand that with a tracheostomy, it way reduces my palliat, smell is your biggest attribute to taste, and some say country wines are not wines, so be it, i'm fine with their views yet back in olden times dates and grapes were both used, and mead, also known as honey wine, it ain't near as bad as it used to be, and most on here are very helpful, but i still now and then get told i can't make the same wine year to year, which from growing i knew who made elderberry and muscadine, and who could do so with razor precision year in and year out, like them little nuances, i made this post saying i understand they enjoy there way and i enjoy mine yet i get semantics on arithmetic vs mathematics, then the next post was how do you measure 1 packet of yeast so on so forth, i've been all over the united states, and walked by myself in most ever projects sleep in them all but harlem i was downtown harlem from 2am to 4 am, but i knew better then to sleep there, so yes if i feel someone is being even slightly condescension , yep i speak up, the only thing i fear on this earth is a mad woman, lol, and it has only been 3 or 4, but i am as proud of my elders ways as you are of those that came long before you, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 11, 2020)

zelix said:


> I wish I could just 'freestyle' it. I'm on my first kit. I'm following everything to the letter. I'm guessing I should follow the rules to learn them. When I get a few batches under my belt I'll jump out doing my own thing. I do want to get into country wines. It's something I'm reading up on at this very moment.


yes and once you learn the basics you'll never believe how many ways you can go, 
Dawg


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## Ajmassa (Jun 11, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> yes and once you learn the basics you'll never believe how many ways you can go,
> Dawg



^^^ YES. THIS !

This says it all. Learn the basics. Understand what you’re doing. And then mold your process and your wine however ya want. As long as you are aware of what you’re doing then any reason for any decision is justified. There is no wrong way!
_To each their own._

We may come from extremely different backgrounds, and make completely different wines with completely different processes, but one thing is certain—— a pissed off woman is scares us just the same!


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## joeswine (Jun 11, 2020)

To each their own, very true.


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## zelix (Jun 12, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> yes and once you learn the basics you'll never believe how many ways you can go,
> Dawg




Thanks for replying. I was hoping that I was going about all this the right way.


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 12, 2020)

We don’t need any numbers to make wine. It is a traditional product, , wine existed before we were literate, before we imported Arabic numerals.
The numbers are there for consistency batch to batch and day to day. The numbers let the plant manager hire someone fresh out of high school and permits them to make product consistent with ten years ago. A formula also lets a PC monitor the operation and eliminate the job of the expert with 20 seasons of experience. @zelix you can use the numbers that apply to grape, to reduce the learning curve with country wine.

Wine is hedonic, , , for enjoyment. I laugh since 2019 butternut squash/ cranberry wine, made by the numbers, ,isn’t very good 9 months out.


hounddawg said:


> i've long pondered the way some if not most use mathematics equations , and complicated formulas to make your wines, such adherandance to wine making, where as i just go with the flow, after several years of pondering,, i have decided yawls enjoyment to your ways are as enjoyable to yawl as my ways are to me, , i can see now that your ways are as enjoyable to yawl as my ways are to me, after all after patience,,, is pleasing to ones self,, which is the entire point,


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## joeswine (Jun 12, 2020)

I think there is a time and place for numbers and a time and a place for common sense.
Wine making from day one was a blend of both we weren't there so we really don't know for sure,do we?
Today's wine making is definitely a combination of both and of you don't think so ,well what can I say, as subjective as this craft is , numbers play a part Just as ,juice,fruits and water if you don't believe that's then you haven't read to many of these threads and the thousands of the same questions that are asked ,how ,when,why,amount ,does this effect and so forth.
Numbers do count as well as hands on experience.
It all depends on what your using in place of numbers as we know them ( today).


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## hounddawg (Jun 12, 2020)

joeswine said:


> I think there is a time and place for numbers and a time and a place for common sense.
> Wine making from day one was a blend of both we weren't there so we really don't know for sure,do we?
> Today's wine making is definitely a combination of both and of you don't think so ,well what can I say, as subjective as this craft is , numbers play a part Just as ,juice,fruits and water if you don't believe that's then you haven't read to many of these threads and the thousands of the same questions that are asked ,how ,when,why,amount ,does this effect and so forth.
> Numbers do count as well as hands on experience.
> It all depends on what your using in place of numbers as we know them ( today).


never said they don't
so you figure that greeks and romans were figuring parts per millions?
yes numbers count, espespecialy to copy a wine, of course not even that is the all being, or else one vintage year would not be worth more than another vintage year? in just what way do i not think so well?
good wine is a art, but to make what's on the shelf i figure you do need parts per millions, just my opinion,, why does that upset you so,? i never knocked on those that wish to use complicated math/arithmetic to make wine, as the title says it all, TO EACH THEIR OWN,, i enjoy the old timers from the deep woods ways, as you enjoy your way, again as the title says . to each their own, i stated up front , not here to make a fuss, just state'd my observations from a few years on here, you suit yourself as i do suit myself,,, so why do you take such offence,,, oh well i reckon that now i can ponder why you are so upset, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 12, 2020)

joeswine said:


> I think there is a time and place for numbers and a time and a place for common sense.
> Wine making from day one was a blend of both we weren't there so we really don't know for sure,do we?
> Today's wine making is definitely a combination of both and of you don't think so ,well what can I say, as subjective as this craft is , numbers play a part Just as ,juice,fruits and water if you don't believe that's then you haven't read to many of these threads and the thousands of the same questions that are asked ,how ,when,why,amount ,does this effect and so forth.
> Numbers do count as well as hands on experience.
> It all depends on what your using in place of numbers as we know them ( today).


i know you are very passionate about being very accurate so your wine is one way or another, and i know for a fact your wines are very good, all i said was you enjoy your way and i enjoy my ways, i never meant to offend no one at all, 
Dawg


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## joeswine (Jun 12, 2020)

I'm definitely not upset ,there's no reason to be.
Just a conversation  nothing more.


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## akron (Jun 13, 2020)

Math, numbers, quantities are all part of the ”recipe” to me that is needed to get going with a batch I want to re-create. But much of the outcome is the process and techniques after the recipe is implemented. In fact it seems like the biggest part is in the technique.


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## joeswine (Jun 13, 2020)

After the process. Yes?


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## hounddawg (Jun 13, 2020)

akron said:


> Math, numbers, quantities are all part of the ”recipe” to me that is needed to get going with a batch I want to re-create. But much of the outcome is the process and techniques after the recipe is implemented. In fact it seems like the biggest part is in the technique.


most of my country wine recipes are from 1825 to 1845, some figuring dose help, but old time math was a dab, a pinch, a handful a peck,, so on so forth, as i like to recreate the ole country folk ways, there's many ways. and to each their own, all my tannings come from crab apples, and several more odd ingredients, but i have no clue about grapes if i did it would be a resaleing . or any other dessert wine...
Dawg


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## MustyMike (Jun 14, 2020)

There’s more than one way to skin this cat lol my 2 cents are if you know winemaking you can more or less make your own recipe that works. All of the math and exact measurements come into play when you are making someone else’s wine ie: a kit. Someone had to make that kit first and say this is what needs to be added to make what I think is a good wine. Are there certain measurements that can be agreed upon throughout any wine? Yes. Such as the amount of k-meta to add per gallon for preserving. However, a lot of it adds up to our individual tastes. I won’t speak for anyone, but I feel if you are a home brewer then don’t expect to make the same exact wine year after year if you are fermenting your own fruit. Commercial wines can be consistent because they are made in bulk and can be adjusted for very specific deficiencies. As a home brewer you can trust that it’s good wine because I said it was, as I crushed it, fermented it, and watched it’s progress throughout. It doesn’t really matter what fruit you use to me, wine is wine, and if it’s good it is good. To each their own


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## joeswine (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm not going to disagree with you,BUT, if you have had a chance to follow any of my threads you'll see that in a experimenter, and that standard rules were meant to be bent not broken.
Well before kit wines came along major manufacturers of wines around the world had process standards ,that's not to say home wine makers didn't it just was their own.
Ex. When Italian imergrant came to this country they brewed wine in tubs,that's it tubes, and in the tenaments were they lived people would come with pots an purchase wine.
And when they were asked " when was this made ? The wine maker would reply " A DAY A GO" no sicence just what they were tough , " by the way I'm Italian", my grandfather made it by the barrels ,one was this year's and the other was done the year before, no maybe just process, inherited thought , JohnT had a great family story if he would chime in and it explains the same, they in the past did it and it can be a combination of math "which the Romans and Greek's were using by the way, or straight up inherited skills .
To the More process minded wine maker it's a combination of both and for others it's inherited skills or trial and errors, which ever ,To Each His Or Her Own. Moving on.


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## GaDawg (Jun 14, 2020)

Factoid...Before he made wine, Robert Mondavi worked in the family grocery and his job was to buy grapes for the winemaking Italian families.


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## hounddawg (Jun 14, 2020)

MustyMike said:


> There’s more than one way to skin this cat lol my 2 cents are if you know winemaking you can more or less make your own recipe that works. All of the math and exact measurements come into play when you are making someone else’s wine ie: a kit. Someone had to make that kit first and say this is what needs to be added to make what I think is a good wine. Are there certain measurements that can be agreed upon throughout any wine? Yes. Such as the amount of k-meta to add per gallon for preserving. However, a lot of it adds up to our individual tastes. I won’t speak for anyone, but I feel if you are a home brewer then don’t expect to make the same exact wine year after year if you are fermenting your own fruit. Commercial wines can be consistent because they are made in bulk and can be adjusted for very specific deficiencies. As a home brewer you can trust that it’s good wine because I said it was, as I crushed it, fermented it, and watched it’s progress throughout. It doesn’t really matter what fruit you use to me, wine is wine, and if it’s good it is good. To each their own


not to mention how come with commercial wines is one vintage is more valuable than other years proving that even no matter how to make each year, well,,, mother earth decides how the cow ate the cabbage,,,,
Dawg


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## reeflections (Jun 14, 2020)

As a photographer, new to wine making, I see a parallel between the two crafts. They are both a combination of science and art. One has to learn a bit of each to reach your goals. On photography forums I used to follow, there were some that could give you mathematical formulas of lens curves and focal distances but were unable to make a pleasing image because they never saw the art side of the spectrum. Then there were those that had great ideas, but they couldn't transfer their ideas to a pleasing image because they didn't understand the science of light.

I'm beginning to believe this is similar with wine making. Instead of physics, wine making uses more chemistry, but the principles are the same. You start with learning the fundamental science, then learn the fundamental goals (your art). Later, you can further your craft by expanding on your art goals and learning the necessary science to achieve them. Or, you can study more of the science and let that expand your art. I prefer the former, while others might prefer the latter. Both are valid to be sure. 

One major difference, on forums anyway, is that photographers can share our final product with each other online. Most of us will never be able to taste each other's wine.


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## hounddawg (Jun 14, 2020)

reeflections said:


> As a photographer, new to wine making, I see a parallel between the two crafts. They are both a combination of science and art. One has to learn a bit of each to reach your goals. On photography forums I used to follow, there were some that could give you mathematical formulas of lens curves and focal distances but were unable to make a pleasing image because they never saw the art side of the spectrum. Then there were those that had great ideas, but they couldn't transfer their ideas to a pleasing image because they didn't understand the science of light.
> 
> I'm beginning to believe this is similar with wine making. Instead of physics, wine making uses more chemistry, but the principles are the same. You start with learning the fundamental science, then learn the fundamental goals (your art). Later, you can further your craft by expanding on your art goals and learning the necessary science to achieve them. Or, you can study more of the science and let that expand your art. I prefer the former, while others might prefer the latter. Both are valid to be sure.
> 
> One major difference, on forums anyway, is that photographers can share our final product with each other online. Most of us will never be able to taste each other's wine.


no i mail wines and i receive wine by mail, just 2 weeks ago i received a very good bottle of cranberry and a killer bottle of blackberry,, i have sent or received many bottles both way, and you are spot on, all wines take simple math, to make your style yet others use very complicated formulas,
i plainly started by saying all ways are right, it depends on what one wants,
Dawg,,,


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## reeflections (Jun 15, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> ... i mail wines and i receive wine by mail...



That's cool! I had no idea. But still not quite as easy as posting a pic for everyone.

Totally agree with you that all ways are right. After all, it's a personal craft.


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## cmason1957 (Jun 15, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> no i mail wines and i receive wine by mail,
> Dawg,,,



Since nobody else mentioned this, please be aware that in the US, it is illegal to send alcohol via the mail system. It might or might not be illegal to send marinade. UPS and/or FedEx are somewhat better choices, but Your Mileage May Vary. Just be careful out there.


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## hounddawg (Jun 15, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Since nobody else mentioned this, please be aware that in the US, it is illegal to send alcohol via the mail system. It might or might not be illegal to send marinade. UPS and/or FedEx are somewhat better choices, but Your Mileage May Vary. Just be careful out there.


fudge that i ha no luse about thank you cmason1957
DAWG

AH PS I WAS JOKING ABOUT SENDING SENDING ANY THING, WHEW,, LOL,


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## winemaker81 (Jun 15, 2020)

@reeflections, your idea has a lot of merit, although I did it the opposite. I found a recipe for rhubarb wine in the local newspaper and started with the art, then later moved to hard science, and gravitated towards the middle ground. I orbit that center, and my opinions vary a bit as I learn new things. Years ago I imagine people started on the art side, but with the internet and availability of information, I suspect many are starting on the science side.

As @MustyMike said above, large vendors have the resources to blend and tweak to make consistent batches from year to year. If you're a plonk vendor (I'm not British, but that word sounds right) making non-vintage wine, you have a vested interest in consistency. If you're Chateau Petrus, you have a vested interest in making the best wine you can from that year's harvest.

I'm on the Petrus side, philosophically speaking. I'm strive to make the best wine I can from what I have. Sure, I'd like next year's wine to be like a favored batch from the past, but I don't honestly worry about it. All I can do is my best. Mother Nature handles the rest.

IMO the science side is risk management. I control the factors that I consider important so the yeast can do its thing.


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## reeflections (Jun 15, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> @reeflections, your idea has a lot of merit, although I did it the opposite. I found a recipe for rhubarb wine in the local newspaper and started with the art, then later moved to hard science, and gravitated towards the middle ground. I orbit that center, and my opinions vary a bit as I learn new things. Years ago I imagine people started on the art side, but with the internet and availability of information, I suspect many are starting on the science side.
> 
> As @MustyMike said above, large vendors have the resources to blend and tweak to make consistent batches from year to year. If you're a plonk vendor (I'm not British, but that word sounds right) making non-vintage wine, you have a vested interest in consistency. If you're Chateau Petrus, you have a vested interest in making the best wine you can from that year's harvest.
> 
> ...



I think even with a recipe there is some very basic science that is necessary to understand. What yeast does and needs to do its work, range of temperatures, maybe S.G. readings, sanitizing. etc..

Basically, I think I am growing into the same philosophy as you as I learn.

I am using recipes but I have already tweaked them some. I have never used a kit and doubt I ever will. They seem pretty expensive. Plus, my 1st stab at fermentation was about 20 years ago when I made a couple of kit beers. They turned out good but I never felt like I really made them, more like I just put them together like an Ikea desk. But as Dawg says, all ways are right.


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## hounddawg (Jun 15, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Since nobody else mentioned this, please be aware that in the US, it is illegal to send alcohol via the mail system. It might or might not be illegal to send marinade. UPS and/or FedEx are somewhat better choices, but Your Mileage May Vary. Just be careful out there.


so is it legal with fedex or ups?
Dawg


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## reeflections (Jun 15, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> so is it legal with fedex or ups?
> Dawg



It doesn't look very promising according to this site:






__





How to Ship Alcohol: Detailed Guide on Alcohol Delivery | FreightRun


Do you want to know how to ship alcohol? Get information about ✔alcohol shipping laws, ✔how to pack and ship differ types of alcohol and other liquids and much more.



www.freightrun.com


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## sour_grapes (Jun 15, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> so is it legal with fedex or ups?
> Dawg



Here is my understanding. The USPS is a federal institution (and the power to create it is explicitly given in the US Constitution). As I understand it, it is against federal law to use USPS to ship alcohol. UPS and FedEx, being private enterprises, are not subject to those laws.

However, as @reeflections's post conveys, shipping (by any means) is still subject to state laws. Some states are okay with it, others not.


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## reeflections (Jun 15, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Here is my understanding. The USPS is a federal institution (and the power to create it is explicitly given in the US Constitution). As I understand it, it is against federal law to use USPS to ship alcohol. UPS and FedEx, being private enterprises, are not subject to those laws.
> 
> However, as @reeflections's post conveys, shipping (by any means) is still subject to state laws. Some states are okay with it, others not.



Arkansas is on the no-ship list. Plus:

"...you will need to create a special contract with UPS or FedEx. Next, you will have to figure out exactly where you can ship wine. When you know which places you can ship it to, then you can use UPS Freight or FedEx Freight to ship it to its destination.


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## cmason1957 (Jun 15, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> so is it legal with fedex or ups?
> Dawg



Shipping wine is almost always prohibited, if you don't have the licenses. And for UPS anyway, the receivers need to sign for it. However, add indicated, you may be able to ship marinade to just about anyone. It really helps if you bring in already packed boxes or so I understand.


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## hounddawg (Jun 15, 2020)

reeflections said:


> It doesn't look very promising according to this site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thank you
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 15, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Here is my understanding. The USPS is a federal institution (and the power to create it is explicitly given in the US Constitution). As I understand it, it is against federal law to use USPS to ship alcohol. UPS and FedEx, being private enterprises, are not subject to those laws.
> 
> However, as @reeflections's post conveys, shipping (by any means) is still subject to state laws. Some states are okay with it, others not.


thank you
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 15, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Shipping wine is almost always prohibited, if you don't have the licenses. And for UPS anyway, the receivers need to sign for it. However, add indicated, you may be able to ship marinade to just about anyone. It really helps if you bring in already packed boxes or so I understand.


ignorance is bliss, over the last several years well yawl know
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 15, 2020)

so marinade it is, after all i've seen many a chicken smoked in bud.
Dawg


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## sour_grapes (Jun 15, 2020)

I go with the "marinade" route, as well.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 16, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I think even with a recipe there is some very basic science that is necessary to understand. What yeast does and needs to do its work, range of temperatures, maybe S.G. readings, sanitizing. etc.


Thanks, but you're giving me FAR too much credit.  

I used an expended beer ball ("beer sphere") as a fermenter, used a scale to weight the rhubarb, added the amount of sugar indicated in the recipe, and dumped in a package of bread yeast. It went a couple of weeks, smelled like alcohol, and there was no activity. IIRC, the recipe said to wait a certain duration, which I did.

Next I poured the "wine" off the sediment, and bottled in quart screw cap whiskey bottles.

I had no siphon tube and had no idea what a hydrometer was. There was no science, and calling it "art" requires a huge suspension of disbelief!

Prior to my second batch of rhubarb 2 years later, I purchased H E Bravery's _Successful Wine Making at Home_. I have an unfair habit of calling it the worst book on home wine making, because of his attitude on fruit wines, e.g., use as little fruit as possible to avoid fruit flavor. However, the book covers the basics and taught me a lot. IIRC, prior to that batch I found a wine & beer making supply shop (which I later became co-owner), and used wine yeast for the first time. Chris, the owner of _The Winery_ in Rome NY, taught me a LOT.

Today's beginners have things soooo much better. The net provides an amazing mass of information, a large part of which is actually useful. Wine making in 1981 required following a recipe of questionable accuracy OR finding someone who knew how to do it. Book stores didn't carry wine making books, so the I purchased Bravery's book at _The Winery_.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 16, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I am using recipes but I have already tweaked them some. I have never used a kit and doubt I ever will. They seem pretty expensive.


In my area, kits can be cheaper then fresh grapes. A low end kit, which results in decent wine, cost between $60 and $100 USD, and including corks, run $2.75 to $4.25 per bottle. The high end kits range up to $8.00/bottle.

In contrast, the combined Malbec, Merlot, and Zinfandel I purchased last fall is roughly $6.25 bottle (quick estimate). My cost would have been higher, but I joined a group that made a bulk purchase of ~12,000 lbs of grapes, so we got a better price.

OTOH, shipping on individual kits is pricey as they are heavy, so I purchase only from my local shop. Shipping and availability of the fruit can have a huge impact on cost.

Have we veered far enough off the original topic?


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## reeflections (Jun 16, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> Have we veered far enough off the original topic?



I guess "to each his own" is a pretty wide topic. 



winemaker81 said:


> In my area, kits can be cheaper then fresh grapes. A low end kit, which results in decent wine, cost between $60 and $100 USD, and including corks, run $2.75 to $4.25 per bottle. The high end kits range up to $8.00/bottle.
> 
> In contrast, the combined Malbec, Merlot, and Zinfandel I purchased last fall is roughly $6.25 bottle (quick estimate). My cost would have been higher, but I joined a group that made a bulk purchase of ~12,000 lbs of grapes, so we got a better price.
> 
> OTOH, shipping on individual kits is pricey as they are heavy, so I purchase only from my local shop. Shipping and availability of the fruit can have a huge impact on cost.



I have never attempted grape wine and didn't realize how expensive grapes were. I have only used frozen fruit or fresh bananas. Oh and a batch of Skeeter pee and a gallon of ginger wine. All cheaper than the kits I've seen. Especially since I have no local place to buy them.


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## M38A1 (Jun 18, 2020)

Hey Dawg.... I've pretty much given up on kit wines, can't make a decent grape wine and have gravitated to fruity sweet wines lately. But my strawberry attempts still suck bad. Started out reading the "how to make wine" stuff, learned a TON here from everyone and have somewhat come to an understanding that if I follow some basic recipes and use some basic target points, I can make a fun drinkable product.

I LOVE what everyone has offered up to help me and the broad range of responses has helped me grow personally in wine making. I've just sort of settled into the simple stuff at the moment because I can do it with success, it tastes good, and it's where I'm comfortable.

It's not right, and it's not wrong what I'm doing and how I do it. It's the virtual friendships here and the knowledge of everyone who has jumped in to help and answer any silly question I pose. I think we all grow in different ways on this journey.


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## hounddawg (Jun 19, 2020)

M38A1 said:


> Hey Dawg.... I've pretty much given up on kit wines, can't make a decent grape wine and have gravitated to fruity sweet wines lately. But my strawberry attempts still suck bad. Started out reading the "how to make wine" stuff, learned a TON here from everyone and have somewhat come to an understanding that if I follow some basic recipes and use some basic target points, I can make a fun drinkable product.
> 
> I LOVE what everyone has offered up to help me and the broad range of responses has helped me grow personally in wine making. I've just sort of settled into the simple stuff at the moment because I can do it with success, it tastes good, and it's where I'm comfortable.
> 
> It's not right, and it's not wrong what I'm doing and how I do it. It's the virtual friendships here and the knowledge of everyone who has jumped in to help and answer any silly question I pose. I think we all grow in different ways on this journey.


i've never used grapes nor kits, but country wines is what i love, what fruits and berries that i don't grow then i buy from homewinery.com, they say that a half gallon of concentrate is good for 5 gallons but it is not, if you do a six gallon then you can call and get the half gallon concentrate plus over the phone you can get pints, but what i do is when i make somthing i but 3 half gallon concentrates, put 12 gallons of water in my ferment barrel then add the 3 concentrates to it, that gives you 13 & 1/2 gallons, when ferment is over i rack into two 6 gallon carboys, and the extra i rack into gallon, half gallon even wine bottles and air lock, now this around extra gallon and a half, i use to top off with by time to bottle you'll be down to 2# 6 gal carboys, and no watering down, full flavor fruits and berries, they sell 53 different concentrates some different type grapes and some fruits and berries, i've tried venters and golden harvest wine bases but they in my opinion cant hold a light to homewinery.com concentrates, but remember if only making a 6 gallon batch the call get you half gallon concentrate and a couple pints, or if you want to make 2## 6's then buy 3 half gallon concentrates, or if you have a 3 gal carboy then buy one concentrate add 4 gallons of water to your ferment barrel, that way you can rack into the 3 gallon carboy and a couple smaller jugs to top off with, i got gallon, half gallon and pint jugs with 38-400 threads that way a drilled 6 & 1/2 bungs will fit all three and airlock, each time i rack then top off i move my extra must to smaller jugs, to airlock a wine bottle use a number 3 bunk or a small universal bung that fits your carboys turned upside down will fit a wine bottle, i hope this helps you,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 19, 2020)

M38A1 said:


> Hey Dawg.... I've pretty much given up on kit wines, can't make a decent grape wine and have gravitated to fruity sweet wines lately. But my strawberry attempts still suck bad. Started out reading the "how to make wine" stuff, learned a TON here from everyone and have somewhat come to an understanding that if I follow some basic recipes and use some basic target points, I can make a fun drinkable product.
> 
> I LOVE what everyone has offered up to help me and the broad range of responses has helped me grow personally in wine making. I've just sort of settled into the simple stuff at the moment because I can do it with success, it tastes good, and it's where I'm comfortable.
> 
> It's not right, and it's not wrong what I'm doing and how I do it. It's the virtual friendships here and the knowledge of everyone who has jumped in to help and answer any silly question I pose. I think we all grow in different ways on this journey.


on your straw berry after it is done what do you back sweeten to? and what is your ABV?
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jun 19, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I guess "to each his own" is a pretty wide topic.
> 
> 
> 
> I have never attempted grape wine and didn't realize how expensive grapes were. I have only used frozen fruit or fresh bananas. Oh and a batch of Skeeter pee and a gallon of ginger wine. All cheaper than the kits I've seen. Especially since I have no local place to buy them.


NO TO EACH THEIR OWN means just that, reeflections is right it is a very broad topic,,,
Dawg


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## winemanden (Jun 23, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> ^^^ YES. THIS !
> 
> This says it all. Learn the basics. Understand what you’re doing. And then mold your process and your wine however ya want. As long as you are aware of what you’re doing then any reason for any decision is justified. There is no wrong way!
> _To each their own._
> ...


You're right Dawg and Ajmassa, learn the basics, but most of all, learn from your own mistakes!. Better still, join a Forum like this learn from other peoples mistakes, and make sure you don't do the same!
I've been a Country winemaker since 1957, made some good wines, a few brilliant wines, a few rough ones. That's life. I don't make as much as I used to, but I still enjoy making it, and even more I enjoy drinking it. 
Regards to all, Stay safe.


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