# how many times can you treat with reduless?



## saddlebronze (Dec 23, 2013)

I treated my wine with reduless and it helped. I did it again but went past the 72 hour mark before racking so it didn't help much (I assume). can I treat a third time??


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## JohnT (Dec 26, 2013)

saddlebronze said:


> I treated my wine with reduless and it helped. I did it again but went past the 72 hour mark before racking so it didn't help much (I assume). can I treat a third time??


 
Things to consider.. 

1) What level of treatment have you made (what amount have you used so far? Reduless add copper to the wine which is not the healthiest thing in the world when taken in high concentrations.

2) Are you sure that a third treatment of reduless will help? Again, reduless is just a method (although a very good one) for delivering copper into wine. I would consider testing it out on a small sample first.

3) how long has it been between treatments? Have you given the reduless a chance to work?

4) I do not believe that your going past the 72 hour wait time should have prevented the reduless from working.

5) what exactly are you trying to fix?


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## Turock (Dec 26, 2013)

I presume you're treating a H2S problem. The protocol for Reduless is that if you didn't catch this soon enough so that the Reduless did not work, then you are to go to copper sulfate. But when you order the copper sulfate, you should order the copper sulfate bench trial kit along with it. You test the wine to find out the dose of the copper sulfate.

But you shouldn't use the reduless over and over again. Use it once---if the H2S remains, then it's time for testing and the use of copper sulfate.


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 26, 2013)

I know a few winemakers that have used it twice to correct the issue, I agree with John about using it a third time. You might want to try Nobleese.


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## JohnT (Dec 26, 2013)

Turock said:


> I presume you're treating a H2S problem. The protocol for Reduless is that if you didn't catch this soon enough so that the Reduless did not work, then you are to go to copper sulfate. But when you order the copper sulfate, you should order the copper sulfate bench trial kit along with it. You test the wine to find out the dose of the copper sulfate.
> 
> But you shouldn't use the reduless over and over again. Use it once---if the H2S remains, then it's time for testing and the use of copper sulfate.


 
From what I understand, Reduless is a much more efficient method for deploying copper into wine. Unless my understanding is incorrect, adding copper sulfate would have less of a chance to correct the issue. 

Also, we need to know the symptoms. What flaw are we trying to correct? if it is bonded H2S (mercaptans) or in most anything other than the "rotten egg" smell of H2S, then copper sulfate is most definitely not the solution.


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## Turock (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes, John--I'm concerned with mercaptan formation too, at this point!!!


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## saddlebronze (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes, this is a Lodi Zin from grapes that I used RC212 and did not provide enough nutrient evidently. Tried the wire and it helped, tried the reduless twice and it helped both times, but it still has a sulfur nose. The wine tastes great if you hold your nose, but that is not how I prefer to drink it It is time for racking again so I will do that and see if I can blow off some of that with racking and maybe I will skip adding meta this time since, what can I loose.


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## JohnT (Dec 27, 2013)

Saddle, 

Have you tried a nice "Splash Racking"?

With H2S, very little goes a long way. The human nose can detect amounts as little as 1ppm. I would try a splash racking at this point (if you have not already done so. I would also give a nice heavy dose of k-meta to knock out the yeast (try to bring the SO2 up to about 50 ppm).

This issue I find is that reduless will treat the H2S that exists in your wine, but does nothing to prevent the still active yeast in the wine from manufacturing more. by adding K-meta you can kill the yeast off so that the issue does not come back.


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## Turock (Dec 27, 2013)

Saddlebronze---In the future, always be sure to use good nutrient management so that you don't have to revisit this problem. 

Kill the yeast with sulfite? Well, I question that one. But since you already dosed with Reduless, some splash racking at this point might be helpful.


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## saddlebronze (Dec 27, 2013)

Well splash it is!! Will report back.


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## LeChat (Dec 30, 2013)

saddlebronze said:


> Yes, this is a Lodi Zin from grapes that I used RC212 and did not provide enough nutrient evidently.



I am experiencing the same problem with a Cab made from fresh grapes and also RC212. The funny thing is that the merlot that I did the exact same way except with EC1118 turned out fine.

I am on my second treatment of Reduless (first with 0.3 g/Gal and again with 0.3 g/Gal). The treatment range is 0.4-0.6 g/Gal so I figured I would do it once with a little bit less than the minimum and try again as needed.

I have to rack it again this PM, so I will see if there is still a stinky problem with it! I also ordered Noblesse and Copper Sulfate at the same time so I still have a few options in my bag.

It goes without saying that I ordered a fermentation helper along with the reduless to prevent this problem from resurfacing again in the future.


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## LeChat (Jan 9, 2014)

Just to give a little update. 

The second dosage of reduless appeared to cure the stinky out. I racked after 72 hours and added some ageing tannin as well as two oz. of medium+ american oak and will proceed to age the wine a few more months before it goes in my barrel.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 9, 2014)

Very cool, if you wait approximately 3 - 4 weeks from the time you added the tannins, your wine will be noticeably different, I too had to use Redulees on a batch of wine, although it cleared the issue, it appeared to render the wine a bit stripped of flavor and aroma.
I added Tannin Riche extra and hoped for the best. 
Fast forward almost 5 weeks later, I am pleasantly surprised, the wine has a nice aroma, very nice taste that is consistent with the type of wine, the tannins are perfect, just enough astringency. 
I bottled this wine yesterday. I brought a bottle up from the cellar and decanted for an hr, the wine opened up nicely. The biggest compliment was seeing my wife drink a glass, she normally prefers white or sweeter wines.


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## manvsvine (Jan 9, 2014)

splash racking is something that should only be done durring or immedialy after fermentation , if its more than a week later it can actualy make the problem much worse , the o2 at that point can push the wine even further into mercaptan development.

its a great first intervention but later it can work against you.

its not a bad habit to always splash rack off the gross lees at the first racking .

reduless is a good intervention but if the first application doesn't get it all , you should add some ascorbic acid which will convert the mercaptans back into treatable sulfides that will react to copper.

then your next intervention may be either reduless or CuSO4 .

then noblesse may be used to help give the wine its body and nose back , do a final odour clean and fine out residule copper.


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## JohnT (Jan 10, 2014)

Could not agree more manvine!


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## manvsvine (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm just repeating scott labs guidlines. When in doubt read the literature , its saved me every time . 

depending on how bad the h2s is you would use reduless or cuso4 for the second treatment.

if its mild use reduless as this will have the least fruit surpressing impact but if its bad h2s , use the CuSo4 and don't forget the ascorbic acid . without it late stage bad h2s cannot be reversed .

the CuSo4 will close the wine up flavour wise but noblesse or another SIY will bring it back.


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## manvsvine (Jan 10, 2014)

prevention is better than the cure , why did you get h2s in the first place?

nutrient issue? fussy yeast like montrachet? too long on the gross lees?


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## RegionRat (Jan 10, 2014)

manvsvine said:


> prevention is better than the cure , why did you get h2s in the first place?
> 
> nutrient issue? fussy yeast like montrachet? too long on the gross lees?


 

Montrachet is fussy. I make gallons and gallons of hard cider. Montrachet is my go to yeast for cider. I had H2S problems twice when I was first learning. The first time set the learning curve for me. I went through all the steps described above. Splash racking, then copper wire, and it finally took reduless to fix the problem. I now keep it on hand all the time just in case.

Lesson learned is to make sure to use nutrient during fermentation. Since I make sure to manage nutrient level I have never had an issue.

Good luck to you!

RR


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## manvsvine (Jan 10, 2014)

try d254 . it will give your cidre better mouthfeel , body and aromatics .
apples and pears are low in nitorgen and high in malic acid. a fussy yeast like montrachet will hate that.

a complex nutirent is essential with cidre and meed , fermaid K would be my first choice , 1 gram per gallon


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## RegionRat (Jan 11, 2014)

manvsvine said:


> try d254 . it will give your cidre better mouthfeel , body and aromatics .
> apples and pears are low in nitorgen and high in malic acid. a fussy yeast like montrachet will hate that.
> 
> a complex nutirent is essential with cidre and meed , fermaid K would be my first choice , 1 gram per gallon




Thank you for the input. I do use ferment k, I also rehydrate my yeast with 
Go-ferm. I chose montrachet on the advice of some people in another forum that make cider alot. It is their yeast of choice. I am very dialed in on the stuff I make. Ever one loves it. I will, on your advice use d254 on my next batch. I will report back on the results.

RR


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## manvsvine (Jan 11, 2014)

d47 has also being an ICV yeast produces good aromatics and mouthfeel in cidre in many ways its the sister to d254 but d254 is more tollerant of adverse conditions and low nutrient . D47 is not as fussy as montrachet but can go to h2s if there isn't enough nutrient. that said , I've never had it turn on me when matched with fermaid K.

if you want to ferment really cool to focus aromatics , r2 would also be a good choice its very low temperature tollerant and has similar properties to d254 and d 47.

if your apples are really high in acid and produce a sharp cidre , 71b 1112 will eat 2-10% of the malic acid and take the edge off a bit. I use it for crab apple cidre.


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## saddlebronze (Jan 20, 2014)

Success!! I wanted to resurrect this thread since I have been reading a lot on this site and came across the thread about using ascorbic acid to reduce the mercaptans back to H2S and then using reduless. Well, it worked. I have no sulfur nose and the wine tastes good according to the War Department. I just wanted to thank the community here for the unique contribution you make to home winemaking. I had never come across a problem like this and thanks to you all I did not have to embrace the D word (dump). Being the winemaker I can tell I lost a little flavor on the last treatment, but I can live with that. May bottle as is or oak and try Noblesse. I suspect I was dealing with mercaptan formation right from the beginning since I did not treat right away and that is why it did not work with the wire or the reduless the first couple of times.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 21, 2014)

saddlebronze,
Thanks for the update!


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## manvsvine (Jan 23, 2014)

Glad it worked , prevention is the best path but when needed ascorbic is a key last intervention tool. As a winemaker a basic understanding of chemistry is better than blindly following old traditions

The key thing to remember is with h2s the earlier the intervention the better , the later you act the worse the problem and the more radical the intervention needed . And the more the wine is impacted.

It's even possible for the wine to progress to unsalvagable


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## saddlebronze (Jan 26, 2014)

Not to hijack my own thread back, but what should I use to precipitate the copper out since I treated 3X with Reduless? Will it strip more flavor or is there something that will just pull out the Cu?


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## manvsvine (Jan 26, 2014)

As I mentioned in my earlier post , nobless is the best next step , reduless has a lesser impact than cuso4 but nobless will give the wine it's middle back and improve it's fruit nose .

Don't forget to add some so2


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## saddlebronze (Jan 26, 2014)

Thanks, Ill start looking for Nobless.


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