# Aging



## Deborah

I've always made my wine from the kits and I ordered two from your site yesterday. If I go strictly by the kit instructions and bottle age without any additional preservatives when is the wine normally drinkable and how long will it last. I have been under the impression that you drink 6-12 months after bottling is that correct?


Also please tell me a little more about bulk aging as I've never tried that. How long do you normally leave in the carboy before bottling if you use that method and is protecting it from lightbeneficial in that process? I would think the bulk aging would be better for reds?


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## winemaker1

I bulk age, away from light(5 or 6 gallon) in glass,all of my wine for at least one year. The heavier the body the longer the shelf life, also if the alcohal is 12-14% the winewill age longer. I just had a bottal of 1991 Vidol,Michigan white wine, it was past its prime but was still good wine.


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## bdavidh

Not that I know much, but I'm letting mine bulk age 6 months before bottling. I'm also oaking the reds during that period. I'd let them go longer, but I need the carboys.


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## Tjah

I am bulk aging three kits now, that Cabsauv( that I almost discarded during the learning phase) a Merlot and a Sauv Blanc.They are in the wine cellar at 57 degrees. {got that ChillR 600 installed




)Do I need to rack during the aging process,if so,how often?


George, I am looking forward to the Crushendo! Thank You again!


Judy


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## masta

I myself have just started bulk aging my reds at the end of last year to try and improve the final product. In the bottle I have found most reds need at least 8 months to really get good. My problem with bulk aging is the same as others...lack of available carboys!<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><O></O>


Here are some older posts that cover bulk aging and oak:<O></O>





http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1 1&amp;KW=bulk+aging


http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3 4&amp;PN=1


More Info:


http://winemakermag.com/departments/468.html*Edited by: masta *


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## geocorn

Tim Vandergrift, the Technical Services Manager for Winexpert states there is not much difference between bulk and bottle aging, except one very important point. Bottled wine is much easier consumed that wine still in the carboy!


Masta is correct in that the 15 liter red kits really need about 6 months to open up. The whites from 3-6. This is not to say you can not enjoy them before. It is just that it is worth the wait!


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## masta

I have gathered some 5-gallon carboys recently so I guess a test is in order for bulk aging vs. bottle aging of some of the reds I am making now. I plan to bulk age 5 gallons and bottle the remanding gallon then taste test side by side.



<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><O></O>


If it is true that there is no true difference in the end result of the wine then I seetwo advantages to keeping the wine in a carboy longer: <O></O>


Addingmore oak to your red wines before bottling and like George passed along...not as easy to graba bottle and open it before it is ready!



<O></O>


*Edited by: masta *


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## Joseph1

Masta,


I used to bulk age my kit wines about 6 months before bottling. After reading comments by Tim Vandergrift on bulk aging, I have shortened my bulk aging period to 2-3 months. I find that this brief period provides two advantages in addition to those you have noted in your post. First, any additional matter in suspension has more time to settle out resulting in a clearer wine at bottling. Second, the wine has time to naturally release additional CO2 in case my vigorous stirring was not vigorous enough.


Joseph


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## geocorn

I agree with Joseph on the bulk aging. Not getting the CO2 out of your wine seems to be one of the bigger problems. By bulk aging, you allow more of the CO2 to escape and, as a result, not bottle it with your wine.


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## masta

Good point George and Joseph on the C02. I know I have had some issues with that when I first starting making wine. It certainly gives a funky taste to the wine....but will fade away after it can breathe a bit.<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><O></O>


I have a Vacu-vin I use on opened bottles I am not going to finish right away and could be used to test the amount of CO2 in the wine. When you pull vacuum on a bottle of wine any gas will come right out of solution.<O></O>


Sounds like a plan for all the new red wine kits starting this year. Bulk age a few months with some oak, test'em and bottle them up.<O></O>


Maybe the new cellar will look a bit fuller come next winter!<O></O>


*Edited by: masta *


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## Joseph1

My first wine kit was a Selection Pinot Noir that I bottled 8 weeks after starting. Apparently I did not stir vigorously enough and bottled CO2 with my wine. The result was a very funky, musty,yeasty taste and aroma. Although it faded after letting the wine breathe an hour, I still knew it was there.


Since this experience, CO2 has become my number two concern after sanitation. As part of my degassing routine, I use the Vacuvin on the carboy. After stabilizing and adding the finings but before topping up, I use the Vacuvin. I pull a vacuum and leave it about 15 minutes then pull a vacuum again. I do this foran hour and then top up and replace the air lock. It seems to pull a lot of CO2 out of suspension.*Edited by: Joseph *


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## masta

What do you use for a stopper to allow you to pull vacuum on the carboy?


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## Joseph1

I used the Universal Carboy Cap. The Vacuvin stopper fits over theshorter of the two stems. George has them as item 2610.


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## masta

Thanks Joseph...I will have to try this. Degassing and getting all the C02 out of your wine is certainly critical to a good final product!


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## Hippie

A vacuum is not necessary if you are using proper degassing procedures. It is a waste of time, unless you just find it fun. You should be stirringwith a drill mounted degasser.Also, if you filter just once with a minijet, you will likely have no more CO2 saturation. A proper racking schedule will also eliminate your CO2 problems.


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## MedPretzel

I have to agree with CW on this one. Maybe the vacuvin thing works on 1-gallon jugs okay, but not with anything more. It's a total waste of time for me, at least.





I bought a thing called a "wine whip" and it broke (snapped right in the middle of degassing and fell into the carboy). It seems like the fizz-ex is the way to go.


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## Hippie

I promise if you try and rush any wine, the CO2 monster will reach out and knock you sideways right when you least expect it.


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## MedPretzel

Yes, I remember only too well.There is still evidence of my wine-turned-into-volcano in the basement.


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## Hippie

Yes, you need that reminder, huh?


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## MedPretzel

Constantly. 


This is how it usually goes around my wines:


"Should I bottle yet?"


Look up at the ceiling, pondering this question. I see the spot where it all flew up.


"No, wait a little bit"


Look at the wine.


"But it hasn't done anything in months"


Look at the spot.


"Neither did that one."


Leave the basement.


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## Hippie

Very good. That one step in winemaking is making your wines just all the better by slowing down the process.


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## masta

Saw this on bulk aging vs bottle aging from Tim Vandergrift who is the Technical Services Manager of Winexpert Limited and thought I would share it...
<DIV ="postcolor">"Everybody repeat after me:

*There is no difference between bulk ageing and bottle ageing!*

When the wine is stable (finished fermenting, clear, at an appropriate sulphite level) it ages as well in a bottle as it does in a carboy.

I've gotten just as many gold medals with bottle-aged as with bulk-aged wines. "*Edited by: masta *


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## Hippie

To me, that is a very encouraging statement, since I always think I am bottling too soon.


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## MedPretzel

I agree. I like knowing that I have lots of bottled wine. It just makes it so much easier if an unexpected guest shows up. Then I have at least a variety to choose from.


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## Hippie

I hear ya. I have a prety good selection, maybe not enough actual grape wines, but a selection of otherwise.


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## MedPretzel

Does the oak taste come out even more by aging, or only when you've got the oak beans/chips/whatever in the carboy?


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## Hippie

Only when the oak is in does it get stronger or more pronounced, until all the goody has been extracted. I don't think anyone wants that much oak.


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## Joseph1

When I read Tim Vandergrift’s comment, as well as his previous comments on bulk aging, I always read them in the context of kit wine making. After all, kit manufacturers have designed a product to get into the bottle in six to eight weeks.<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

Although it seems that every book I can recall reading recommends bulk aging, I am beginning to think Tim’s comment may also apply to scratch wines. It does take longer for a scratch wine to reach stability than a kit wine. Perhaps it’s a matter of definition (early part of bulk aging actually being stabilization). I have always bulk aged my scratch wines after they were stable. Do others do this, or do they bottle when stable?

I understand the benefit of bulk aging in an oak barrel or when using oak chips/cubes. Beyond this, is there any benefit to the winemaker to bulk age in glass? Are there any chemical reactions that occur in bulk that do to occur in the bottle? Do scratch wines require more time for a blending of complex components? Has anyone done an experiment comparing the taste of a scratch wine bottled when stable and one bulk aged?



I would appreciate any thoughts, comments and opinions on this. Maybe I can bottle my scratch wines a littlesooner.


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## Hippie

The only thang I can see how bulk aging, after oaking and being sure the wine is stable, is beneficial, isthat the carboy of wine will all age at the same rate, while bottles might be subject to individual temp swings, vibration, noise, light, etc. *Edited by: Country Wine *


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## MedPretzel

I think Country is right on this one. This is what I have understood to be true as well.


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## jshuey

I have a great deal of respect for Tim Vandergrift...no one knows more about making excellent kit wines than Tim. And I am not an "expert" on winemaking in general by any measure, BUT...wine made from scratch from grapes will age MUCH more slowly in bulk than in a bottle. After a few years, there is a noticable difference in wines in a magnum (1.5 lt) vs in a .75 lt bottle. As I understand it...based on reading folks who apparently understand such things, it has to do with the ratio of wine exposed to oxygen over time...that left in the bottle @ corking plus the slow exchange through the cork that occurs. It would seem to follow logically then that wine in a 6 gallon container would age more slowly yet.


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## Hippie

Welcome to the forum John!


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## Joseph1

John, Welcome to the forum and thanks for your comments. I am certainly no expert on wine making; I am a newbie trying to understand what is going on with my wine.<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

Tim’s comments raised questions in my mind regarding bulk aging. I have read in several places that wine benefits from bulk aging, but no explanation as to how it benefits. Since my post, I have done some research on aging to see if I can gain an understanding of what is happening to my wine.

In general there are two phases to the aging process: oxidative aging and reductive aging. Oxidative aging occurs between fermentation and bottling. Reductive aging begins once the wine is in the bottle. Both phases are necessary.

During oxidative (bulk) aging, the wine is in contact with a small amount of oxygen. This occurs as part of the winemaking process at racking, testing, tasting, fining, filtering and bottling. This contact with oxygen results in a number of chemical reactions, such as polymerization of tannin and pigment, stabilization of color and a reduction in volatile esters. In addition to the ongoing chemical reactions, the wine maker may undertake stylistic actions (sur lie aging, aging in oak or with oak chips). Bulk aging also allows time for the fruit particles to fall out of suspension 

During reductive aging, the wine is in the bottle and no longer in contact with oxygen. The oxygen present at bottling will bind with the SO2. The chemical reactions occurring in the bottle begin to develop the wine’s bouquet. Eventually, there will be a slow exchange of oxygen through the cork. As John pointed out, because of the smaller ratio of headspace to wine, a wine bottled in 1.5L bottles will age slower than one in 750ml bottles.

It may be that kit wines are manufactured so that the chemical reactions during bulk aging either do not occur or the occurrence is insignificant. This may be the reason that bulk aging would not be necessary. Although it seems logical, I do not know if this is the case. Perhaps someone else on the forum does know. If the wine maker departs from the instructions by adding tannin or additional sugar to the must, or makes stylistic changes, bulk aging a kit wine would be necessary.

To answer some of my own questions from my previous post: the chemical reactions that occur during bulk aging are different than the reactions during bottle aging. This process takes longer for scratch wines than for kit wines. As John had indicated, the larger the container the more time required. Bulk aging beyond that required may be done if cellar conditions are unfavorable as Country Wine pointed out. Since bulk aging is required for a wine to become stable, there can be no experiment comparing a scratch wine bottled when stable to one bulk aged. To complete the aging process, the wine has to spend time in a bottle.
I think I’m beginning to understand.


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## Hippie

Very good essay, Joseph. I hope every member reads this.


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