# Easing into grapes



## crushday (Dec 20, 2019)

I was notified this week that the three Tempranillo kits (WE LE2019) I ordered are on their way. Nice. Since they don’t come with skins and, in an effort to ease into making wine from grapes, I ordered a frozen pail of Tempranillo grapes from Brehm. 

My plan is to split the frozen must into thirds and add that to each of the kits, making sure that an equal proportion of the skins gets to each 7.9 gallon fermenter. I’m sure this idea will be both celebrated and challenged - mostly challenged.

For you grape guys, what do I use to crush the grapes in the bucket? And, feel free to tell me how dumb of an idea this is...


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## jsbeckton (Dec 20, 2019)

Don’t see any issues with this as a lot of people reuse pressed skins. Only concern might be throwing the kit acids off balance.

Never had a Brehm bucket but thought they were already crushed and destemmed?


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## CDrew (Dec 20, 2019)

It might be more interesting to do the frozen must all the way through, and compare to the kits in the end. But I see you are trying to elevate the kits, so that's fine too.

In any case, I can only see the grapes as improving your effort.

You don't need to press until the end of fermentation, and for just 1 bucket you could use a home made bucket press made from 3 buckets.

But why not throw it all in 1 30 gallon fermentor (like a Brute or similar) do primary fermentation and then split it up into carboys. That to me would be much easier, and 100% satisfactory and more realistic if you're on the way to all grape wine making.


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## crushday (Dec 20, 2019)

CDrew said:


> It might be more interesting to do the frozen must all the way through, and compare to the kits in the end. But I see you are trying to elevate the kits, so that's fine too.
> 
> In any case, I can only see the grapes as improving your effort.
> 
> ...


I’m liking this more and more. Although I don’t have a brute, I could get one. And, I do have a 1 gallon fruit press that I use currently to press the skin packs when I do make kits. Great idea...

Question: how do you rack from fermenter to carboy? I suppose via a pump?


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 21, 2019)

Those Brehm buckets aren't cheap and I'd be tempted to just ferment it on its own. But if you wanted to add to a kit, I'd recommend @CDrew 's approach. To simplify, you could go to your local big box store and grab some paint strainer bags. Ferment with the grapes in those bags. Then to 'press', all you need to do is take them out and squeeze them by hand.

Going from fermenter to carboy, I use a pump. If that isn't an option, just make sure you elevate the fermenter somehow so you can use gravity.


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## CDrew (Dec 21, 2019)

For me, fermenter to carboy is easy. After fermentation, everything goes in the press, the new wine is collected in a bucket and a giant funnel is used to get it into carboys and intellitanks. That very first racking off the press has so much oxygen already that you are not adding more with pouring it into a carboy. Plus, that exposure is said to be beneficial in initially softening the tannins of the new wine. Usually the wine is still fermenting a bit at that point too, and thus still producing CO2. Anyway, it works perfectly well and no pump needed.

I kind of show it in the pics starting on post 65 here:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/vintage-2019.70012/page-4

After the initial press/carboy thing, then I use vacuum racking from then on.

Good luck. With your degree of dedication, I see grape wine making being a big success for you.


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## bluecrab (Dec 21, 2019)

I’ll piggyback off the suggestions above. You have an opportunity to compare Brehm to kits. Why not ferment the Brehm to completion and age the free-run separately. Then, take the unpressed skins and ferment the kits on them. I think that might give you the best of both worlds. Whatever you choose to do will be interesting. Keep us posted.


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## crushday (Dec 21, 2019)

bluecrab said:


> I’ll piggyback off the suggestions above. You have an opportunity to compare Brehm to kits. Why not ferment the Brehm to completion and age the free-run separately. Then, take the unpressed skins and ferment the kits on them. I think that might give you the best of both worlds. Whatever you choose to do will be interesting. Keep us posted.


Man, I love this forum site. Thank you to everyone who has weighed in on this project. Here’s what I’m going to do. I like the comparative opportunity afforded to me and the bonus of using the grape skins for the kits after the frozen must is pressed after primary. However, my whole system is set up for 6 gallon minimums. One bucket isn’t going to give me enough finished wine to age in the carboys/barrels I have. To get a true comparison, I’ll want to age the same amount of time, first in glass and transfer to a barrel before bottling. So, I’ll buy a second frozen must pail when Brehm calls to give me my shipping quote.

Here are the numbers on the Tempranillo must:

Pail 18UVT (22.9 Brix, 5.9 TA, 3.43 pH, 211 YAN)

I’ll want to do a MLF after it’s pressed right? First timer here... What bacteria is recommended? When to add?

This will be super fun...


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## crushday (Dec 21, 2019)

I’ll post back after I get everything started in January.


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## CDrew (Dec 21, 2019)

crushday said:


> I’ll want to do a MLF after it’s pressed right? First timer here... What bacteria is recommended? When to add?
> 
> This will be super fun...



Consider doing a co-innoculated MLF. Lots of discussion here and lots of success reported. My co-inoculation method is to add the bacteria as soon as the must forms a cap the first time. I've used CH16 for 3 years and have not had any issues. VP41 is reported to do well too. I've never used it, but would given what's reported here. 

You can also do a sequential MLF but that's more work, and takes longer.

Based on the Brix do you intend to chapitalize the must to Brix 24-25?

Interested to hear what you do.


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## nynethead (Jan 5, 2020)

for mlf I use a freeze dried product from Chr Hansen [email protected], easy to use, no starting just stir into wine, $20 for 66 gallons worth and stores in freezer.
https://www.chr-hansen.com/en/food-...beverages/cards/product-cards/viniflora-oenos


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 5, 2020)

crushday said:


> For you grape guys, what do I use to crush the grapes in the bucket? And, feel free to tell me how dumb of an idea this is...


On your first pail you could crush with a potato masher, run roughly a quart at a time in a flat bottom kettle or ice cream pail.


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## crushday (Jan 5, 2020)

It's a good idea. Here's what I'm planning right now, but first a listing of the inventory:

2 Brehm Tempranillo buckets
3 WE LE19 Tempranillo kits
Additive Pack for Brehm Frozen Fruit (Reds) - ordered from Morewinemaking.com
VRB yeast
Dry Malolactic Bacteria - Viniflora CH16
Lallzyme EX-V
Tannin Riche Extra (18 g)

I'm going to make all five at once but keep the LE19 and Brehm buckets separate. From one of the buckets, I'm going to scoop out a reasonable amount of the skins, press them with my fruit press and add the skins to the kit batch and add the pressed juice to the Brehm buckets. 

I'll perform a 24 hour cold soak on the Brehm batch using the right amount of the EX-V, understanding that a little goes a long way. I'll be mashing the Brehm bucket a couple times during this period.

I'll use the additive pack from MoreWine in the Brehm batch, as per package instructions.

I'll pitch the VRB in both batches and 24 hours later pitch the CH16 as a co-inoculation on the Brehm only. Punch downs will be twice a day, according to my normal practice.

I will not be doing a EM on either batch but follow generally excepted wine making practices. Both will be bulk aged for a minimum of 12 months and barrel aged the same amount of time in 6 gallon barrels. 

All of this will commence on Wednesday this week. A little nervous...


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## stickman (Jan 5, 2020)

The Brehm fruit is already crushed and destemmed, so no need to "mash" unless that's something specific to accomplishing your style. The thawing process takes around 2 to 3 days depending on the ambient temperature, though in your case it may depend also on the shipping process. To some extent, with the freezing and thawing process, you get a cold soak whether you want it or not.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm not sure I would mix the kit juice in with the straight from grapes. Kits are already at the expected ta, pH for the style of the kit. That may well not be the style you want. That plus the age old admonition to not put a kit through mlf, the malic acid used to backhand the kit may or may not be synthesized by the Malolactic Bacteria.


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## Rocky (Jan 6, 2020)

Question: how do you rack from fermenter to carboy? I suppose via a pump?[/QUOTE]

This is something I have on all my fermenters and it is no problem to use.

https://labelpeelers.com/vintage-shop-1-2-inch-bottling-spigot/

I have it on 10, 20 and 32 gallon fermenters and all of my 7.9 gallon buckets. Easy to install with a spade bit hole in the fermenter, easy to clean and sanitize. I have my fermenters on a table about 3 feet off the floor, position the carboys under the spigot (may need a length of hose) and fill from there. If I have grape skins either loose or in a bag, I remove them before opening the spigot.​


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## crushday (Jan 10, 2020)

1/10/2020, 7:45am It has begun. I opened up the buckets this morning to see how much was thawed. To my surprise they were 99% thawed. A little ice in the very center that mixed right in. I put the buckets in my fermenting room at 75 degrees 22 hours ago. They were shipped from Portland, Oregon only a 2 hour drive from my house. They were frozen solid when they arrived.

Getting the lids off was actually a challenge. I guess I need to lift weights if I'm going to be much more of this. I added Lallzyme EX-V as per the instructions. Tonight, or in 8-10 hours, I'll add the Opti-Red and FT Rouge tannin.

1/10/2020, 12:30pm I came home for lunch and dropped my tilt hydrometer in the must. It too think with the skins to measure the gravity but the temp is 47 degrees. I did take refractometer measurement and it measures 23.1 (brix). I held it up to light in my shop as it's raining to Biblical proportions today and didn't want too get wet.

1/10/2020, 7pm Added Opti-Red and Tannin FT Rouge, temp is 56 degrees. Tomorrow morning, if temp is 70+, I’ll add the yeast.


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## CDrew (Jan 10, 2020)

If the must is still cold, you might wait 24 hours for the EX-V to do it's magic before you add the Tannin and risk precipitating the enzymes. Fermentation is going to take a bit of time to start if cold anyway.

I've got to look up the VRB yeast. Can't wait to hear how this goes. MoreWine says Spanish and perfect for Tempranillo!

Did you end up getting a fermenter Brute or something else?


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## crushday (Jan 10, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Did you end up getting a fermenter Brute or something else?



Thanks for the direction. Tonight I'm going to check the must temperature, do a hydrometer reading and ascertain next steps. Based on temp, maybe pitch the yeast (VRB). 

To answer the question on the Brute. I couldn't find a food grade brute locally. So, my plan is to ferment each bucket separately and after the press add the juice to my conical fermentor(s) for secondary. Each fermentor will hold a maximum of 8 gallons of juice so I hope I can get by using just one. If not, I'll split.


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## NorCal (Jan 10, 2020)

Home Depot carries brutes. I wanted white ones and they delivered them free to the store for pick-up.


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## Rocky (Jan 10, 2020)

To answer the question on the Brute. I couldn't find a food grade brute locally. 

Crushday, do you not have a Home Depot in your area? They have the Brutes and they are certified to NSF Standard #2.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rubberm...ey-Round-Trash-Can-with-Lid-2031186/100211748


SORRY, NORCAL. I PULLED THE TRIGGER BEFORE I SAW YOU HAD REPLIED TO THIS.


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## crushday (Jan 10, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Home Depot carries brutes. I wanted white ones and they delivered them free to the store for pick-up.


I did order one but it won't be at the store until the 16th - 21st. I'll keep my current trajectory and use the Brute for the next batch. Thanks for the help, @NorCal I so much appreciate it.


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## crushday (Jan 10, 2020)

Rocky said:


> To answer the question on the Brute. I couldn't find a food grade brute locally.
> 
> Crushday, do you not have a Home Depot in your area? They have the Brutes and they are certified to NSF Standard #2.



I do have a HD and a Lowes a few miles from my house that does have Brutes. However, I was unable to verify if they were food grade so I was hesitant to purchase. Thanks for the education and the lead...


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## CDrew (Jan 10, 2020)

The gray ones are food grade as are the white ones. The others I’m not sure about. But the gray ones are always in stock. 

I like the square ones that nest in the back of the van better. But those I had to order from Amazon


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## Johnd (Jan 10, 2020)

I, too, started with the grey ones, you should be able to find them very easily at HD or Lowes. All of my current fermenters are the white food grade containers, some Brute, and a couple of a different brand that I got a good deal on one year.


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## stickman (Jan 10, 2020)

Here is the statement from Rubbermaid:

"Rubbermaid Commercial Products is proud to announce the expansion of NSF/ANSI Standard 2 Food Equipment and Standard 21 Thermoplastic Refuse Container certification to all standard colors and sizes of round and square BRUTE bases. Certification also applies to all standard round lid colors as well as square lids in gray and white. Our Brutes are also BPA Free."


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## Rocky (Jan 10, 2020)

crushday said:


> I do have a HD and a Lowes a few miles from my house that does have Brutes. However, I was unable to verify if they were food grade so I was hesitant to purchase. Thanks for the education and the lead...



Just look for "NSF" on the underside of the container. The top is included.


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## crushday (Jan 11, 2020)

Thanks again to everyone who has weighed in on my Tempranillo project. Now that I have started, and seeing what I actually have, my original idea of getting the bucket and adding the grapes to my three Tempranillo WE LE19 kits was extremely ill advised. You all helped me avoid a very big mistake. 

Both buckets are well on their way. I should be able to add the yeast tomorrow morning. After the fermentation is complete, I’ll press the grapes and add the pomace to the wine kits and begin those. I can’t wait to taste the difference between the buckets and the kits.


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## Chuck E (Jan 11, 2020)

Johnd said:


> I, too, started with the grey ones, you should be able to find them very easily at HD or Lowes. All of my current fermenters are the white food grade containers, some Brute, and a couple of a different brand that I got a good deal on one year.



White Brutes here too! Easier to keep clean.


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## crushday (Jan 11, 2020)

I'm pretty surprised at the temp this morning. Yesterday at 12:30pm, it was 46 degrees. Last night, prior to going to bed, it was 56 degrees. This morning, it is only 58 degrees. I have a wireless thermometer inside one of the buckets and a thermometer on top of the bucket lid. You can see from the picture that it's 73.6 degrees on top of the bucket. That's pretty close to the floor so I'm happy with the temp as I have it set to be 75 degrees in my fermentation room which is well insulated.

I'll check again tonight. I would like the must up to about 70 degrees before I pitch the yeast. The VRB temp range is 58-85, so I'm currently at the low end of the range. Too risky...


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## crushday (Jan 11, 2020)

I just this evening put two and two together. I leave town on Thursday morning this coming week for a quick business trip. I’m scheduled on the first flight Sunday morning home. I could come home late Saturday night but that puts a strain on Mrs. Burgin to retrieve me from the airport late at night. I guess I could pay $35 a day at the parking garage at Sea/Tac but that’s like getting your car out of impound. I’ll be getting back around 8:15am on Sunday.

Mrs. Burgin is going to have to “punch the cap” while I’m gone. I’ll give her an in service tomorrow morning. 

I ordered the buckets a couple days before Christmas and because of Christmas and New Year, they were not shipped to me until January 8th. I was expecting them on the 3rd. But, as circumstances would have it, I fear I’m risking O2 on the wine as I won’t be able to press until late Sunday morning or early afternoon and get everything sealed up.

Will I be Ok?


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## cmason1957 (Jan 11, 2020)

You could always cool it down and let it ferment very slowly. There is a winery in Missouri that does that with their reds. Works out great.


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## Johnd (Jan 12, 2020)

crushday said:


> I would like the must up to about 70 degrees before I pitch the yeast. The VRB temp range is 58-85, so I'm currently at the low end of the range. Too risky.



It’s really not risky to pitch your yeast at the low end as your temps come up. The yeast will activate at a speed controlled by the temps, so slowly at first, increasing as your temps do. Didn’t recall that you added sulfite, your cultured yeast may also shove some other inhabitants to the side as it takes up more and more space. They’re there, acclimating to the rising temps, trying to establish a foothold, so the sooner the better for that. When doing frozen must, pitch temp was 50, nary a worry.


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## Samuel Alecci (Jan 12, 2020)

Have you looked into the gofermenterjr? It punches automatically. You set the schedule. Also eliminates the need for fermenter and press it does it all. The equipment isn’t inexpensive but you buy it once and then use Replacement bags for fermentation and racking. You can even store wine with no oxidation in the racking bags. Add oak chips etc. Little sanitation required, no added sulfites needed. Excellent wine results especially with reds. https://www.gofermentor.com/gofermentor-jr/


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## mainshipfred (Jan 12, 2020)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I really don't see what the problem is. If you were able to pitch the yeast today, especially if you just sprinkled it on top, it wouldn't start until tomorrow sometime. My guess would be 6-7 days from now there would still be plenty of CO2 to protect the wine.


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## crushday (Jan 12, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> You could always cool it down and let it ferment very slowly. There is a winery in Missouri that does that with their reds. Works out great.


Craig, that’s a good suggestion and one I hadn’t thought of. The temp is currently 64 degrees. When I went to bed, it was 62. The increases in temp are way slower than I would have expected. I pitched the yeast yesterday (Saturday) morning.

I’ll keep you posted.


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## crushday (Jan 12, 2020)

Johnd said:


> It’s really not risky to pitch your yeast at the low end as your temps come up. The yeast will activate at a speed controlled by the temps, so slowly at first, increasing as your temps do. Didn’t recall that you added sulfite, your cultured yeast may also shove some other inhabitants to the side as it takes up more and more space. They’re there, acclimating to the rising temps, trying to establish a foothold, so the sooner the better for that. When doing frozen must, pitch temp was 50, nary a worry.


John, yep, I didn’t add sulfite. And, I pitched the yeast yesterday morning when the must was 61 degrees. Last night it was 62 and this morning, 64. No noticeable yeast activity. Certainly, I’ll poke my head in there a couple times today and note the changes. Thanks for the help.


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## crushday (Jan 12, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I really don't see what the problem is. If you were able to pitch the yeast today, especially if you just sprinkled it on top, it wouldn't start until tomorrow sometime. My guess would be 6-7 days from now there would still be plenty of CO2 to protect the wine.


Fred, that’s what I need to hear. I did sprinkle it on top, yesterday morning. Last night, I stirred it all in with the GoFerm. This morning, must is 64 degrees and nothing to suggest I inoculated. Once I see some mid paced activity, I’m planning on adding the bacteria for MLF.

That actually opens up another catalog of questions. Since I’m planning on adding the pomace to the WE LE19 Tempranillo kits, that will have just been taken out of the Brehm batches, can I really add the pomace (laced with MLF bacteria) to the wine kits?

And, barrel aging... Can I put MLF’d wine in a barrel and six months later but a kit back in it? Or, do I need to dedicate a MLF barrel(s)?


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## crushday (Jan 12, 2020)

Samuel Alecci said:


> Have you looked into the gofermenterjr? It punches automatically. You set the schedule. Also eliminates the need for fermenter and press it does it all. The equipment isn’t inexpensive but you buy it once and then use Replacement bags for fermentation and racking. You can even store wine with no oxidation in the racking bags. Add oak chips etc. Little sanitation required, no added sulfites needed. Excellent wine results especially with reds. https://www.gofermentor.com/gofermentor-jr/


@Samuel Alecci Thanks for the link. I checked it out. Cool concept. Real question related to the fermentation bags that have a 1.5” opening. How do you conveniently get the must through that tiny opening? That alone could feel like purgatory.

Update: Should have watched the video. It doesn’t leak from the gathered bag secured by a hose clamp?


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## mainshipfred (Jan 12, 2020)

crushday said:


> Fred, that’s what I need to hear. I did sprinkle it on top, yesterday morning. Last night, I stirred it all in with the GoFerm. This morning, must is 64 degrees and nothing to suggest I inoculated. Once I see some mid paced activity, I’m planning on adding the bacteria for MLF.
> 
> That actually opens up another catalog of questions. Since I’m planning on adding the pomace to the WE LE19 Tempranillo kits, that will have just been taken out of the Brehm batches, can I really add the pomace (laced with MLF bacteria) to the wine kits?
> 
> And, barrel aging... Can I put MLF’d wine in a barrel and six months later but a kit back in it? Or, do I need to dedicate a MLF barrel(s)?



I can't/won't touch the kit/MLF/barrel question since I don't do kits and don't give it much thought. Plus you are going to get some differing opinions. There is a member who just recently did an experiment separating the same kit and doing MLF on one with positive results. I believe he is now waiting for it to age to see if the balance issue widely discussed plays a role with the wines.


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## CDrew (Jan 12, 2020)

I can't really answer the MLF question directly, but I do know some wineries practice is to put aging wine that hasn't done MLF into barrels that previously had MLF bacteria and that serves to inoculate the new wine. So in your case, if you feel MLF is not desirable, I would not put the wine in a previously MLF barrel.

At your low temps, you'll get an automatic extended maceration, which is pretty cool (no pun intended!). Once fermentation starts, you may find that the exothermic portion of fermentation will warm things up a bit too.

Good times. Keep us posted.


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## crushday (Jan 12, 2020)

Update: 5:20pm - I added the CH-16 MLF bacteria as I have a moderate yeast fermentation going. Punching the cap makes a lot more sense to me now. This was the first time I've had 6-8" of skins, seeds and stems in an organized block. There were also what looked like worm holes (or similar to a cooking pancake) presumably where CO2 has been escaping. 

A word on the bacteria. I ordered the smallest amount available, which was packaged for 60 gallons of must. The amount in the package was maybe a teaspoon, or a little bit more. Measuring out 1/10th of that was a total guess. I don't imagine that too much is too much...


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## CDrew (Jan 12, 2020)

Yes, the standard amount of MLB is for 66 gallons, but you can't really use too much and I would not try and measure it out, especially this cold where the MLB will be slow. Good going. I added the whole amount to 45 gallons most recently and it was fine. I have parsed out portions which also works fine. But you're right just estimate and move on. 

Your description of the cap is spot on. Just be sure to stir up the bottom of the fermenter too.


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## crushday (Jan 12, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Your description of the cap is spot on. Just be sure to stir up the bottom of the fermenter too.


Thanks for the wise direction. Tomorrow morning I'll do just that and add it to my punching down. I can already see a major difference in the juice in terms of the color. It's looking really dark and deep. I wish I could say that I was being captivated by the aroma. Having smelled every adjunct, I would say it resembles the GoFerm the most. That, undoubtedly, will change.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 13, 2020)

crushday said:


> Thanks for the wise direction. Tomorrow morning I'll do just that and add it to my punching down. I can already see a major difference in the juice in terms of the color. It's looking really dark and deep. I wish I could say that I was being captivated by the smell. Having smelled every adjunct, I would say it resembles the GoFerm the most. That, undoubtedly, will change.



I do wine from grapes and kit wines. But, I don’t own a barrel. If I did, I don’t think I’d own just one - I’d use one set for fresh grapes and another set for kits, just to avoid the possibility of MLB/kit wine interaction.


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## stickman (Jan 13, 2020)

crushday said:


> 1/10/2020, 7:45am
> Getting the lids off was actually a challenge. I guess I need to lift weights if I'm going to be much more of this.



Next time you're at the home store, get one of these bucket openers, it will help minimize the chances of you ending up in the emergency room getting stitches. It's just a cheap plastic handle, but it makes a big difference if you're opening more than a few buckets.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Warner-7-75-in-Plastic-Paint-Bucket-Opener/1000027151


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## crushday (Jan 13, 2020)

I decided to work from home today so I can more closely monitor my little project. I was just out there to check. I may have made a potential volume error fermenting these batches in the buckets that were delivered. As you can see from the pictures, one of them is only 1.5" from the rim and the other closer to 1". Of course, spilling over would not make me happy. Am I at risk? I seem to remember a @stickman image in the 2019 Cab string with the pre-fermentation must being really close to the rim of his stainless fermentor so I think I'm ok. However, now I wonder how a large portion of his must didn't hit the floor.

Also, when I stirred this morning I was cautious as to not create a volcano. I've had a few of these with some of the wine kits I've made and that's seriously the makings of a very bad day...

Here's the pre-fermenation levels...




Here's the levels after 24 hours of active fermentation...


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## mainshipfred (Jan 13, 2020)

crushday said:


> I decided to work from home today so I can more closely monitor my little project. I was just out there to check. I may have made a potential volume error fermenting these batches in the buckets that were delivered. As you can see from the pictures, one of them is only 1.5" from the rim and the other closer to 1". Of course, spilling over would not make me happy. Am I at risk? I seem to remember @stickman image in the 2019 Cab string with the pre-fermentation must being really close to the rim of his stainless fermentor so I think I'm ok. However, now I wonder how so of his didn't hit the floor.
> 
> Also, when I stirred this morning I was cautious as to not create a volcano. I've had a few of these with some of the wine kits I've made and that's seriously the makings of a very bad day...
> 
> ...



My guess would be the cap won't get much bigger if you were active for 24 hours. The harder part will be punching down without the grapes falling out.


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## CDrew (Jan 13, 2020)

A trip to Home Depot for a 20 gallon Brute would solve this problem definitively!

But I agree with @mainshipfred that you're likely fine if you keep an eye on it. 

Things look good and I'll bet smell pretty nice right about now.


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## crushday (Jan 13, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Things look good and I'll bet smell pretty nice right about now.


Wow, definitely turned an aromatic corner during this punch down, even since this morning at 5:30am. Smells like wine now...


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## crushday (Jan 13, 2020)

Well, I'm glad I decided to work from home today. I went out at 2pm to punch and as you can tell from the images, I had the developments of a pending mess. I believe I acted quickly and with the information provided in this string related to the Brutes, I went to HD and purchased one. They didn't have a 20 gallon pail so I bought the 32 gallon. NSF was stamped on the bottom. I did order a white 20 gallon a few days ago but it won't be available for pick up until the week of the 16th. Obviously, I could not wait that long. My experience with active ferments is that days 2-4 are the heaviest and I was just getting into that season. The alternative of waiting meant a lot of cleanup and lost must.

After a quick spritz with StarSan and transfer, all is safe.


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## CDrew (Jan 13, 2020)

Bravo!


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## sour_grapes (Jan 13, 2020)

Livin' on the edge! No harm, no foul I guess.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 13, 2020)

You made a good call there.


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## crushday (Jan 15, 2020)

Potential critical decision. Remember I'm flying out in the morning. I came home for lunch and my intention was to check SG with my hydrometer, adjust for the temperature and take a reading. SG is down to 1.009. Taste is outstanding. Color is good, but could be darker. I have to admit I wasn't mentally prepared for the split second of wonder I had upon experiencing the carbonation of the wine upon first sip.

Should I press tonight and get Mrs. Burgin off the hook? Or, do I stay the course and she punches down until I get home and, I press on Sunday? Looking for collective wisdom. I need to make my decision by 7pm to give me enough time to get it done before needing to hit the sack.

What say you?


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## bshef (Jan 15, 2020)

I’d let it ferment to complete dryness, .990 . It won’t hurt to wait as long as Mrs. B punches down twice a day. She probably will enjoy the punch. I find it gratifying; the beauty and aroma is rewarding.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 15, 2020)

I would agree with the wait, get it as cold as possible and let it soak out as much of that color as you can. It loses some color as it clears. And you shouldn't necessarily expect it to get to 0.990 anything under 1.000 is dry, it gets as dry as it gets, sometimes there are non-fermentable sugars present.


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## Chuck E (Jan 15, 2020)

Bring Mrs. B a present from your trip and ask her to punch it down.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 15, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> Bring Mrs. B a present from your trip and ask her to punch it down.



But not in that order! 

But I agree with the sentiment...


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 15, 2020)

Wait.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 15, 2020)

I vote stay the course - ferment to dry and appreciate Mrs B’s willingness to pitch in.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 15, 2020)

If you don’t wait we will all be very upset with you. [emoji16]


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## crushday (Jan 15, 2020)

Ok, ok, ok... Mrs. B is going to join the team. I’ll report back with press pictures on Sunday.

Thanks to everyone!


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## CDrew (Jan 15, 2020)

I agree with everyone else. Let your wife do the punchdowns. Let it ferment close to dry. I usually press at -0- Brix and let it do the last little bit

An encouraging story-I had a similar thing last year, where I had to be away 2 days with two 25 gallon ferments in progress. And, I asked that in between each individual ferment, she had to resterilize just to reduce the risk of cross contamination. In the end she did a great job, and enjoyed it enough that this year she asked to do the mid day punch downs while I was at work. Figure the more they invest in the process, the more supportive they will be.


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## crushday (Jan 19, 2020)

Update: I pressed the skins this morning. Specific gravity measured at .993. Mrs. B did great. I had six gallons of free run wine and 1.25 gallons of pressed wine. I decided to add the pressed wine to the free run. I know others try to keep those separate but I didn't taste a significant difference between the two so I mixed them. I have it under air lock to complete fermentation and MLF.

Following the plan, I also started the three WE LE19 Tempranillo kits and added four cups of pomace to each. They are already fermenting. I assume the VRB yeast from the Brehm is still active. I was going to use VRB anyway. Also, I realized after including the pomace that I'm inadvertently introducing the CH16 bacteria too. Some regret about that right now. I'm hoping that I didn't just start what will become "flabby" Tempranillo.

I also started 18 gallons of MM All-Juice Masters Cab and 18 gallons of WE Lodi Cab, both inoculated with Avante yeast. Both had skins and oak chips. MM provided light toast and WE provided medium toast.

Here are some pics from the "press"...


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## CDrew (Jan 19, 2020)

Outstanding. Color extraction looks great. I agree about combining press and free run, especially at this volume.

Where did you get that nice stainless funnel?


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## crushday (Jan 19, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Where did you get that nice stainless funnel?


I purchased the funnel at my LHBS... I actually have three of them. PM your address and I'll mail you one.


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## Johnd (Jan 19, 2020)

You shouldn’t worry too much about the MLB in the skins, I’ve done it with no ill effects at all. Just make sure to remember that you can’t use any sorbate. If you do feel like the wine is lacking some acidity, it’s easy enough to do taste trials and add a little tartaric to the party....


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## CDrew (Jan 20, 2020)

crushday said:


> I purchased the funnel at my LHBS... I actually have three of them. PM your address and I'll mail you one.



That's a very kind offer but I found one on Amazon for small $$. But really, I appreciate it.

Looking forward to further updates!


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## crushday (Feb 14, 2020)

Update: I’ll be moving the Brehm batch to a carboy on Sunday - tasted it last night. Although it tastes fantastic, it is very tannic. Having made nearly 100 kits (91, and counting), none of those have this level of tannins to my taste. I’m hoping (and, guessing) they’ll soften in time. I’m in no hurry to bottle or consume this wine. It’s not even slated for a barrel until May 2021 and bottled in November of that year. I’m giving it the gift of time. 

The original plan was to finish with Riche or Riche Extra but have a question about that now.

Can someone speak to the tannin level and what I might expect in the future?


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## Johnd (Feb 14, 2020)

crushday said:


> Update: I’ll be moving the Brehm batch to a carboy on Sunday - tasted it last night. Although it tastes fantastic, it is very tannic. Having made nearly 100 kits (91, and counting), none of those have this level of tannins to my taste. I’m hoping (and, guessing) they’ll soften in time. I’m in no hurry to bottle or consume this wine. It’s not even slated for a barrel until May 2021 and bottled in November of that year. I’m giving it the gift of time.
> 
> The original plan was to finish with Riche or Riche Extra but have a question about that now.
> 
> Can someone speak to the tannin level and what I might expect in the future?



I've never had the need to add any tannin products to my grape wines, extraction has always seemed to provide plenty to work with. In young wines, the taste is very disjointed, often fruity followed quickly by tannic puckering and maybe even a little bitterness in the finish, in addition to perhaps a little green taste or even sourness. Some of this can also be contributed to CO2 still being present in the wine, but the wine should improve vastly from here. Over time, tannins combine into longer chains and some drop out in the form of sediment, the overall effect is a softening of the tannins to the taste. The fruit may come and go a bit as the wine ages, but should shine through in the end. The young, green tastes subside, CO2 dissipates, and if you've got decent fruit and done a good job as a winemaker, it'll all come out in the wash, you'll have a very nice wine to be proud of. The most important part of your plan is already in place, time.


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## crushday (Feb 14, 2020)

@Johnd - That’s exactly what I needed to hear - thank you!


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## ibglowin (Feb 14, 2020)

I have always added a dose of Tannin FT Rouge (pre-AF) to all my fresh grape wines going all the way back to 2010. If you like long lived powerful wines this is a key ingredient IMHO.



Johnd said:


> I've never had the need to add any tannin products to my grape wines.


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## CDrew (Feb 14, 2020)

Sounds great. The astringent tannin taste now does not surprise me at all. It's normal. It will fade slowly. I agree that young wine seems to taste like young wine for a long time, maybe 18-24 months, then it comes together over a few months. I'm quite happy with my 2017s at this point and just starting to warm up to my 2018s. Though the Petite Sirah has a (long) way to go!

Someone here mentioned to wait a minimum of 18 months before tasting, and I basically agree with this, though invariably small amounts get tasted for quality control when racking!.

I too use a small amount of FT Rouge, but much earlier in the process(during fermentation), and if you are happy with things now I would not add more tannin.

When your Tempranillo is bottled,, I'll trade you 2019 tempranillos if you'd like to do a swap.


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## crushday (Feb 14, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Sounds great. The astringent tannin taste now does not surprise me at all. It's normal. It will fade slowly. I agree that young wine seems to taste like young wine for a long time, maybe 18-24 months, then it comes together over a few months. I'm quite happy with my 2017s at this point and just starting to warm up to my 2018s. Though the Petite Sirah has a (long) way to go!
> 
> Someone here mentioned to wait a minimum of 18 months before tasting, and I basically agree with this, though invariably small amounts get tasted for quality control when racking!.
> 
> ...


Sets my mind at ease. A swap is clearly on the horizon. I’ll PM you after bottled!


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## Chuck E (Feb 16, 2020)

crushday said:


> I purchased the funnel at my LHBS... I actually have three of them. PM your address and I'll mail you one.



What is the diameter of the large end of the funnel and the diameter of the spout end?


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## crushday (Feb 16, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> What is the diameter of the large end of the funnel and the diameter of the spout end?


The funnel is 9.5” wide. The spout is 3” long and tapers down to a 3/4” opening at the end. Hope that helps.


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## crushday (May 30, 2020)

Update: This has been in the barrel for 30 days. I snuck a taste. It’s very good. Obviously still young, but very good. Has a lot of potential. Surprisingly light in color - much like a Pinot. 

Topped up.


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