# presoaking oak cubes



## muskie003 (Aug 6, 2015)

so I use oak cubes (French-medium toast if that makes a difference) in my winemaking process. I always add them into my secondary container (glass carboy) for bulk aging. however, after about ten days or so I always have to open my container to top off the juice bc the headspace has gotten too much bc all the oak cubes are absorbing liquid. I hate doing it this way so I want to start presoaking them.

whats the best way in public opinion? throw them in with the juice in primary? water? and if you use anything other than the juice that you're going to place into the secondary anyway, is there any "flavor loss" from the cubes?

thanks


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## GreginND (Aug 6, 2015)

Are you are using an enormous amount of oak cubes, I have never observed any significant decrease in volume due to them soaking up wine. If you want to pre-soak them, I would use a bit of the wine you would top it up with to soak them in and then add them.


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## Kraffty (Aug 6, 2015)

I haven't really noticed a similar problem but only add about 1/2 to 1 cup of cubes at a time. I just top up with wine but I guess I'd go with putting them in the primary rather than water or unfermented juice if I had to. I'd just hate to give up any of the oak flavor to water that's going to be tossed away.
Mike


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## terrymck (Aug 6, 2015)

The only time you would loose volume to oak cubes soaking up the wine is when you take them out. You can't loose volume if they are still in the carboy. The wine is still there; just inside the cubes. Even to make a difference when taken out you would have to be putting them in by the shovel full. The reality is when the cubes are put in the volume increases because the cubes displace the liquid.


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## jsiddall (Aug 6, 2015)

I agree that you can't lose volume compared to _before_ adding the cubes, but it is definitely possible to lose volume _after_ adding the cubes.

However, that is likely going to be offset by the fact that the dry cubes should float above the wine level.

I also have never noticed a drop in liquid level from adding cubes


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## muskie003 (Aug 6, 2015)

interesting. I always assumed it was the oak cubes. so from the time I put the juice into the secondary (when SG is right around 1.000) and add dry oak cubes - about ten days after (usually) the level of the juice in my carboy ALWAYS drops about an inch in the neck. I suppose it could be gas blowing off thru the airlock, but that seems like a lot to me. that ten day mark is when I usually start to see some of the cubes that were previously floating now starting to sink. I got some extra cubes - I'm gonna have to conduct an experiment!


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## DoctorCAD (Aug 6, 2015)

If the wine is in your carboy
and the oak cubes are in your wine...
and the oak cubes absorb wine...
the wine is still in the carboy.

Physics don't lie.


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## Kiwisholland (Aug 6, 2015)

Was thinking haiku, but too many syllables


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

Okay, here is a Physics quiz: You put a BIG rock into a rowboat, and then row out to the middle of a lake. Then you take the rock, and throw it overboard. Comparing the lake water levels just before and just after you throw the rock overboard, does the water level of the lake go up, or does it go down, or does it stay the same?

(Note: I have edited this question to clarify, as it was not well-phrased initially. Hat tip to BernardSmith, who pointed this out in the next post down.)


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## BernardSmith (Aug 7, 2015)

Is the answer gonna be different if, from the bank, you simply heaved the big rock into the water or dropped the rock from a aeroplane?


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## syncnite (Aug 7, 2015)

Suppose the cubes have air trapped inside that is released slowly over 10 days? Would the cubes then be displacing less wine? If a big plastic ball containing air is attached to the bottom of the carboy, and a hole is made on top, and it fills with wine, wouldn't the level go down as the air escapes? 

For the record, I think the original problem is just degassing. So I'm speaking theoretically.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

BernardSmith said:


> Is the answer gonna be different if, from the bank, you simply heaved the big rock into the water or dropped the rock from a aeroplane?



I can now see that my post was not clear. I meant, will the level be higher when the rock is in the boat, or after you drop it over the side of the gunwhale.

I will edit the original to clarify.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

syncnite said:


> Suppose the cubes have air trapped inside that is released slowly over 10 days? Would the cubes then be displacing less wine? If a big plastic ball containing air is attached to the bottom of the carboy, and a hole is made on top, and it fills with wine, wouldn't the level go down as the air escapes?
> 
> For the record, I think the original problem is just degassing. So I'm speaking theoretically.



But the case you cite is not analogous. In your hypothetical case, the ball is displacing its entire volume. If you, instead, just floated the ball on top of the wine (as you would with oak cubes), it would only displace a volume equal to the volume of water that has the same mass as the ball.

Coincidentally, I added oak cubes to one of my wines last night. The cubes floated, but only a _very_ small volume was above the surface.


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## jsiddall (Aug 7, 2015)

Answer to @sour_grapes: the lake level will actually go _down_ immediately after throwing the rock in the water. The reason is that in the boat the weight of the rock caused the boat to displace the same weight of water which because water is less dense means more volume. When you throw the rock into the water it sinks, due to its higher density, but because it takes up less volume than the same weight of water there is a net volume decrease.

Answer to @BernardSmith: yes, very different. When thrown from the bank the rock will simply raise the lake level by the volume of the rock. Now, if the boat from sour_grapes question above were pulled ashore, the lake would be at the same level in both cases.

Answer to @syncnite: Assuming the cubes are still floating at the end (as far as I can tell they never sink in winemaking timeframes) then the liquid level will stay _essentially_ the same. The reason is that none of the matter in the carboy is changing state or density. So while some of the wine will soak into the cubes thus causing the cubes to float lower in the wine, the equivalent weight of displaced air from the cubes takes the same volume as the cubes now displace in the wine. If the density of cubes themselves were significantly higher than the wine then you would see the level dropping as the wine soaked into the cubes.

Of course I made many assumptions in those overly simplistic explanation, but the net effect of all of them don't change the outcome significantly.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

Ding ding ding! @jsiddall gets the gold star! And a very good explanation, too -- thank you.

This is relevant to the problem at hand. Imagine that, instead of throwing the rock overboard, the rowboat developed a leak, and the whole boat (and rock) sank. The lake level would go down, as jsiddall noted. This is close to the situation we have with the oak cubes. It _is_ possible for the wine level to go down after the cubes get saturated. But the effect is very small. (See post #13.)


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## muskie003 (Aug 7, 2015)

haha. I didn't think I was gonna stir up a physics debate. let alone one with a ton of hypotheticals. I did an experiment for you guys. didn't have an empty 5gal carboy to use so I used a one gal jug with an airlock and stopper, filled with water, and added 3/4 cup of dry oak cubes.

not sure if these pics will show up or not but.....
in the first pic and second, its hard to see but there is a black sharpie mark on the jug indicating the level of the water
in the second and third pic, notice the sharpie line now...that's only 12 hours later! 

so perhaps physics don't exist in my basement, but it appears that oak cubes can soak up liquid and lower your level to create more air space. wood is porous, but its also buoyant. all those cubes appear submerged but they're actually kinda floating trying to all push their way out of the neck. its not changing the physical volume of liquid in the container, but tis moving it into spaces previously occupied by air. so in a sense, the air that was once in the pores of the cubes is now at the top, just under the stopper.

if u drop a tree trunk in a river, its gonna float. but it'll eventually become saturated and sink.

im sure in the 5gal carboy of wine, there is also some degassing, but I don't think my water is fermenting.

so back to my initial question - do u guys think soaking in the bucket during primary with the juice is better, or do you worry about any kind of contamination and soak it in a distilled water and lose some flavor?


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

Good on you for doing the experiment! It is nice to see validation of theory!

I agree with Greg. _If_ you really want to presoak them, presoak them with the wine you would use to top off the carboy. You can think of it as "pre-topping off" if you want.

Or, of course, you could just top off later.


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## jsiddall (Aug 7, 2015)

muskie003 said:


> haha. I didn't think I was gonna stir up a physics debate. let alone one with a ton of hypotheticals. I did an experiment for you guys. didn't have an empty 5gal carboy to use so I used a one gal jug with an airlock and stopper, filled with water, and added 3/4 cup of dry oak cubes.



Unfortunately your experiment has some other real-world effects that are dominating the result. In your case, the friction between the cubes and the carboy are causing a "log jam" of sorts at the neck. As a result, cubes that would otherwise be floating on the surface of the liquid are in fact pushed below the surface. The dominant effect is that low density cubes forced below the liquid level artificially raised the level. As the liquid soaks into the cubes and displaces air the net density increases and the liquid level drops as you witnessed.

Maybe that was the original question after all!


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

I agree with @jsiddall 's analysis, but note that the "friction" or "jamming" action is an important component of it. Otherwise, it would not matter if there were many small pieces or one big one. (Not that he or she implied otherwise.) In absence of jamming, one would expect the same volume of wood to be above the surface whether the cubes are floating separately on the surface or together in the neck.

Interestingly, with that modification (of jamming), it makes the situation closer to @syncnite 's analogy, where the body is being artificially held below the surface, instead of floating.


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## richmke (Aug 7, 2015)

How about this analogous physics experiment:

Fill two graduated cylinders halfway with water. Let's say that is 10 cc for a 20 cc cylinder.

Into GC1, add 1 cc of a non-porous rock. Maybe a solid stainless steel marble (doesn't rust) or otherwise chemically react with the water for a short period of time.
Into GC2, add 1 cc of a porous rock. Something that is dense enough to sink. Volcanic rock?

Immediately after adding the rock, the two GC's will read the same.

After a while, the porous rock will absorb some of the water, and the internal gas will be displaced. The water level in GC2 will have dropped, whereas the water level in GC1 will have remained unchanged.

So, assuming that the oak cubes sink naturally, they initially have air pockets that allows the oak cubes to absorb wine, like a sponge. Assuming the oak cube swells less than the volume of water it absorbs, then the wine level in the carboy will drop over time.

The only difference "jamming" would have is that it allows the oak cube to be submerged while being less dense than wine. But, the effect is still the same.


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## heatherd (Aug 7, 2015)

Aside from all the physics and log jam debates, what happens to my oak cubes when I put them in at the same phase is that the must foams up a bit. When that foam recedes in a couple of days, the level is lower, and I top up with a similar wine. For me, that's fine because I don't want a wine volcano from the oak.

My wine volcanos always occur when adding tannin powder or oak staves/powder/cubes. Not sure why, but its consistent.

Could be you're having the same issue?

Heather


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## roger80465 (Aug 7, 2015)

You people are making my head hurt! I'm on the way to the wine cellar!


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## muskie003 (Aug 7, 2015)

jsiddall said:


> Unfortunately your experiment has some other real-world effects that are dominating the result. In your case, the friction between the cubes and the carboy are causing a "log jam" of sorts at the neck. As a result, cubes that would otherwise be floating on the surface of the liquid are in fact pushed below the surface. The dominant effect is that low density cubes forced below the liquid level artificially raised the level. As the liquid soaks into the cubes and displaces air the net density increases and the liquid level drops as you witnessed.
> 
> Maybe that was the original question after all!



yeah that sorta is my question. I am in agreement with you on the "log jam" and that's what I'm hoping to eliminate or at least alleviate by presoaking them. I feel like the soaked cubes will give me a truer "juice level" in the carboy bc I don't want to have to open the container at all to top off. in theory, if they're already saturated, they wont have the air space that causes them to increase head space once the pores begin absorption.

I also agree on the headache and the need to go to the cellar!!!!

but all I really wanted to know was if anyone threw them in a juice bucket and just kept em in there with the primary fermentation process, and then just transferred them with the juice into the secondary container. or if there was any reason that would cause a problem. 

what can I say? I love oak! and it fades over time so I use a good bit of it. but I also like the purity of not topping off at all with a similar varietal.

regardless, I enjoyed this and appreciate the input!


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## richmke (Aug 7, 2015)

heatherd said:


> My wine volcanos always occur when adding tannin powder or oak staves/powder/cubes. Not sure why, but its consistent.



Because the powder/staves/cubes serves as nucleation points for the gas bubbles to form.

Similar to dropping a mentos into a carbonated beverage.


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## richmke (Aug 7, 2015)

muskie003 said:


> I feel like the soaked cubes will give me a truer "juice level" in the carboy



1) Does it matter? If you have to top off, you have to top off. Does it matter if you have to top off right away, or a week later?

2) The oak cubes will soak up whatever your put them in. That will leach into the wine when you put them in.

3) The oak will give up its essence into whatever you soak them in. So, whatever liquid you don't pour into the carboy has oak that gets poured down the drain.

In summary: Nice idea, but IMHO, not a good one.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 7, 2015)

muskie003 said:


> but all I really wanted to know was if anyone threw them in a juice bucket and just kept em in there with the primary fermentation process, and then just transferred them with the juice into the secondary container. or if there was any reason that would cause a problem.



There is one definite problem, and one "maybe" problem.

For sure, what you are describing will turn out to be a minor pain in the pitooty. The cubes will sink and get buried in the gross lees. You will have to retrieve them, clean them off, and transfer to secondary, and then repeat the process upon racking for aging (lest you lose some of their oaken goodness due to limited contact time).

Maybe a problem (I am not at all sure on this): The oakiness may get diminished during the primary fermentation process.


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## JohnT (Aug 12, 2015)

I am sort of with Rich. 

Just top off the wine if needed, but that small bit of air should not pose much of a problem if the PH and level of SO2 is right.

johnT.


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