# Racking



## ZAF (Jun 11, 2020)

Dear all,
I have been reading a lot about racking and it seems there is a lack of consistent information out there (or at least my perception of the information is somewhat inconsistent). There are three opinions I found on the web
1- If you are making wine out of a kit or juice (not from actual grapes) your first racking should happen after 2 weeks regardless of the the fermentation stage.
2- first racking should happen once the fermentation has stopped completely.
3- third opinion is somewhere in the middle saying rack after fermentation has stopped or if the sediments have reached 3/4 of an inch (whichever happens first).

Today I have completed 3 weeks of fermentation. The fermentation has slowed down but has not stopped. The airlock is not levelled yet and I can see bubbles. Sediments do not look like they are 3/4 of an inch but I will verify this shortly by taking it out of the dark closet.

Should I just wait until fermentation stops completely before I rack, or should I rack now? My understanding that it is recommended to add a campden tablet in (dosing = 1 tablet per gallon) every time the wine is racked to prevent it from spoiling. Does this recommendation apply if racking is performed prior to completion of fermentation?

I really appreciate this. I just want to make sure that I am not ruining my batch.


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## Johnd (Jun 11, 2020)

ZAF said:


> Dear all,
> I have been reading a lot about racking and it seems there is a lack of consistent information out there (or at least my perception of the information is somewhat inconsistent). There are three opinions I found on the web
> 1- If you are making wine out of a kit or juice (not from actual grapes) your first racking should happen after 2 weeks regardless of the the fermentation stage.
> 2- first racking should happen once the fermentation has stopped completely.
> ...



Time has zero to do with when you rack. It's best to rack as your fermentation nears or reaches completion, which is determined by your hydrometer, not by your calendar. Folks here don't agree 100% on what is the right SG to rack at, but to generalize, it's below 1.010. 
The reason you're racking is important to understand so you can decide how you want to do it, and the reason is to get your wine into a vessel where you can control oxygen exposure, as well as leaving some of the stinky lees behind. 
Personally, I like to rack from a bucket to a carboy while there's still a bit of sugar left, somewhere around 1.000, and I'll let AF finish up in the carboy under airlock, where the final stages of AF are producing CO2 in the airspace to protect the wine.
Having said that, some folks rack a little sooner than 1.010 and do just fine, in my opinion it's risking a wine volcano in the carboy if there's still some vigor left in the yeast. Some folks let their wine totally finish AF in the bucket before racking and do just fine with it, for me, I don't want to risk the exposure to O2. You get to decide for yourself!!!


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## ZAF (Jun 11, 2020)

Thanks @Johnd . When you transfer to a clean carboy do you add campden/kmeta if the fermentation hasn’t completed to help protect again O2? Or do you worry about stopping the fermentation and not add it in this racking?


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## Johnd (Jun 11, 2020)

ZAF said:


> Thanks @Johnd . When you transfer to a clean carboy do you add campden/kmeta if the fermentation hasn’t completed to help protect again O2? Or do you worry about stopping the fermentation and not add it in this racking?



Your sulfite won’t stop fermentation, though it may stun the yeast a bit, but no, don’t add it until you’ve finished AF. The CO2 still being produced by unfinished fermentation is plenty protection for the interim. A good rule of thumb for “finished”, is a SG below .998 that remains unchanged for three days straight.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 12, 2020)

I agree with @Johnd on all points.

Keep in mind that kit instructions are designed to get a complete novice through the wine making process, producing a wine they will be proud of. There are a lot of nuances that kit instructions can't include and still be straightforward.

Rule #1: the yeast is in charge. You can influence it (temperature, adding chemicals, etc), but the fermentation ends when the yeast runs out of sugar to eat OR it produces so much alcohol that it makes its own environment toxic (well, toxic to the yeast). As John said, basing fermentation on elapsed time is wrong. I've had fermentation complete in 4 days, and take as long as a month.

Sure, you'll find disagreement on this forum as to _exactly_ when to rack, but generally between 1.010 and when fermentation is complete is agreed upon.

During fermentation, the expelled CO2 cushions the wine from the air. Air, specifically oxygen, is your enemy -- it oxidizes the wine, so you get the equivalent of rust on steel. Once fermentation completes, that cushion erodes, so you eventually have none. How long does that take? No idea, and I honestly don't care. If I put the wine under airlock shortly before fermentation completes, I eliminate the problem.

Don't add sulfite until fermentation is complete. As John stated, it can stunt the yeast, slowing down the completion.

What is the current specific gravity (SG)? THAT tells you when fermentation is complete. Bubbles in the airlock are not a conclusive answer, as the wine will emit CO2 for some time. The SG always tells the truth.

If the SG is at 0.998 or below and remains there for 3 consecutive days, fermentation is done.

Did you ferment from the beginning in the carboy? That slows things down. You want initial fermentation in an open container (cover with a towel), rack between 1.010 and 1.000 (approximately), and then put it under airlock.

Navigate to my *kit wine list* and read my notes on each batch. This is NOT exciting reading and may help if you have insomnia, but it will provide real time frames.

Please note that once fermentation is done, all time frames in the kit instructions are minimums. You can go longer -- some folks bulk age their kit wines for 12+ months. Shorter is not recommended.


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## ZAF (Jun 12, 2020)

Thanks @winemaker81 . I am not using a kit, rather grape juice. My hydrometer got damaged and I ordered another one. Thats why I can't take a SG reading at the moment.
I kept it open to air (no airlock for 48h) then put the airlock on. It was bubbling rapidly for a good week then started to slow down. Now my airlock fluid level is starting to level back. I can still see bubbles going towards the surface so I know fermentation has not stopped. There is a layer of sediment at the bottom of my carboy.
It has been over 3 weeks since the start of the fermentation, and I am planning to bulk age after racking, which I won't do until fermentation stops.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 12, 2020)

@ZAF, no problem. The difference between a kit and juice is that the kit has been adjusted so sugar, acid, and everything is balanced.

That said, the overall process is the same.

When your new hydrometer arrives, check SG. If it's 1.010 or below, rack immediately. If it's below 0.998, allow small headspace in the carboy. If it's 1.000 or above, headspace is ok.

Let's hold further advice until you have the hydrometer.


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## ZAF (Jul 3, 2020)

Hi Guys, 
I thought I'd give you guys an update on the process of my current batch.
A bit of a background. This batch made out of grape juice. fermentation started May 22nd. 
Unfortunately I don't have a starting SG. The reason is that my hydrometer broke and I bought another from from amazon. i did not notice that it was a PR/TR hydrometer until I have already prepared the juice with the sugar in the fermenter. The mix was 2 cups of sugar in approximately 3 L of 100% red grape juice.
Just over 2 weeks ago I racked the wine for the first time because I felt the segmentation at the bottle were rising and added approx 300 ml of tea for tannins. That involved me dipping a tea bag in boiling water for 6h then removed the bad and poured it into the carboy. I did not have a hydrometer so i could not measure SG.

Ever since the first rack, I did not see any bobble in the carboy but my airlock fluid level was not levelled. I attributed it to probably being trapped CO2. So I decided to take a SG = 1.026. 
I tasted it and I must say it tastes nice. Citrous. The tannins did give the wine a nice mouth feel. I also might sense a fain fuzz. I am not sure if that is just because I saw the SG reading or a real fuzz.

We are now day 42 since the beginning of the fermentation.

Do we think the SG reading is related to tannins two weeks ago or sign of on going fermentation?

Thanks


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## Scooter68 (Jul 3, 2020)

Racking from bucket to carboy is normally done, as Johnd said, based on the SG. 
1) Some folks do it a specific SG number like 1.010. 
2) Some let the ferment complete, (Sometimes accidentally when you have a rapid ferment that finishes before your realize it) 
3) I personally do it based on the SG AND the amount of activity Foam in evidence). A ferment at an SG of 1.010 with LOTS of foam still present is may overflow if racked into a carboy - in that situation I wait until the foam dies way down or the ferment completes (Foam rarely still around then)

Keep in mind there is also the process of fermenting Sur Lies where the grape skins are left in after the ferment completes. I can't address the details of that since I don't do any ferments that way.

So as also mentioned with the possible exception of Sur Lies fermenting, *time is not a factor on when to rack - ever.*
As to adding K-Meta - I would never add that to an active ferment as it might mess with the yeast activity and produce undesired results. Only add the K-meta after the ferment completes.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 3, 2020)

ZAF said:


> We are now day 42 since the beginning of the fermentation.
> 
> Do we think the SG reading is related to tannins two weeks ago or sign of on going fermentation?



The tannins are not responsible for the high SG. Their effect on SG will be utterly negligible.

My opinion is that you have a stuck fermentation. That is, your yeast, for whatever reason, have died.

When you tasted it, did it taste sweet?

If it were my batch, I would make a starter to try to get fermentation going again: https://eckraus.com/using-yeast-starters-for-improved-fermentation/


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## KCCam (Jul 3, 2020)

ZAF said:


> So I decided to take a SG = 1.026.


Do you really mean 1.026? That seems very high. Does it taste sweet? Tannins, per se, do not change the SG. Adding the water would lower the SG, assuming it started over 1.000 (the SG of water).


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## KCCam (Jul 3, 2020)

KCCam said:


> Do you really mean 1.026? That seems very high. Does it taste sweet? Tannins, per se, do not change the SG. Adding the water would lower the SG, assuming it started over 1.000 (the SG of water).


Honest, I posted that before I read sour_grapes post!


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## sour_grapes (Jul 3, 2020)

KCCam said:


> Honest, I posted that before I read sour_grapes post!



Yes, I only beat you by 1 minute if you look at the time stamps!

But, yes, his SG does really appear to be 1.02x in the picture of the hydrometer.


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## stickman (Jul 3, 2020)

Hopefully the hydrometer is actually floating and not resting on the bottom test container.


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## ZAF (Jul 4, 2020)

yes its actually floating.
The wine tastes sweet, but not dessert wine sweet. The airlock is not levelled yet. So there is some CO2 coming out but I actually can't see bubbles in the carboy.

@sour_grapes I was thinking about restarting my fermentation. I was thinking about starting fermentation in a small cup and then add it to the carboy to restart fermentation. What do you think guys?


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## sour_grapes (Jul 4, 2020)

ZAF said:


> @sour_grapes I was thinking about restarting my fermentation. I was thinking about starting fermentation in a small cup and then add it to the carboy to restart fermentation. What do you think guys?



That is close to what the instructions in the link I included in post #10 says. I am confused why you are asking me again?


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## ZAF (Jul 4, 2020)

@sour_grapes sorry I wasn't clear. I don't have years nutrients, so i was thinking about activating yeast and then adding it to the carboy instead.


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 4, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> The tannins are not responsible for the high SG. Their effect on SG will be utterly negligible.
> 
> My opinion is that you have a stuck fermentation. That is, your yeast, for whatever reason, have died.
> 
> ...


Sours grapes, I found that link* very* informative. Have printed it off and will add to my WMT binder........Thanks.........................Dizzy


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## KCCam (Jul 4, 2020)

ZAF said:


> @sour_grapes sorry I wasn't clear. I don't have years nutrients, so i was thinking about activating yeast and then adding it to the carboy instead.


If it were me, I would (and have) follow @sour_grapes’ advice. Get some yeast nutrients and/or the Quick Starter mentioned in the link he provided. Just adding more yeast might work, but something stopped the current yeast from multiplying. It could be lack of nutrients, or pH, or temperature, or any number of things, but simply throwing more yeast at it is unlikely to give you a complete fermentation, IMHO. And it won’t give you any information about what’s wrong if it doesn’t work. Check this site or Google for “stuck fermentation”. You can learn more about wine-making from trying to fix one problem than from making a dozen successful batches.


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## ZAF (Jul 6, 2020)

Thanks guys for all the help.
When you add the starter / nutrient do you leave the carboy open to air (with a cloth on top of it) or do you keep it under airlock?


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## Scooter68 (Jul 6, 2020)

ZAF said:


> Thanks guys for all the help.
> When you add the starter / nutrient do you leave the carboy open to air (with a cloth on top of it) or do you keep it under airlock?



Carboy or Fermentation Bucket?


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## ZAF (Jul 6, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Carboy or Fermentation Bucket?


Its currently in a carboy.


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## KCCam (Jul 6, 2020)

*Do not add yeast to the carboy.* It needs oxygen, and if it does start up, you may have quite a mess if/when it bubbles over.
I'm piecing things together here from previous posts. 
@ZAF please tell me if I am wrong about any of this. You can just refer to the number in the list.

You've done a lot of reading, but have very little actual experience making wine, which is fine, we all have to learn somehow. I was the same, but I made 20 or 30 kits before I tried making wine without one.
You are not making a kit. You stated that you are starting with 3 L of 100% grape juice and 2 cups of sugar May 22.
You broke your hydrometer, ordered another one but didn't notice it was the wrong type. You started the wine anyway, then ordered the correct type.
You must be using a recipe, otherwise how would you know how much sugar to add without a hydrometer? It would be helpful for us to see the recipe.
You started in a primary fermentation *bucket *that has a lid and an air lock, but you left it open for 48 hours then put on the lid and air lock.
You asked for help June 11 because you figured it was getting time to do your first rack into a secondary carboy and were confused by apparently conflicting opinions about when this should happen. You were also unsure about when to add K-meta (campden tablets).
Around June 17 you racked from your primary to a glass carboy (secondary fermenter). Even though you didn't have a hydrometer yet, and all the information in this thread suggested that the time to rack is based completely on your SG readings you figured the amount of sediment justified it.
2 weeks later, July 3, you have a hydrometer, SG is 1.026, in tastes a little sweet, and fizzy. The air lock appears to be not bubbling, and the wine looks fairly clear.
Shortly after that post it is suggested you may have a stuck fermentation and provided with a link to relevant information.
July 6, today, it sounds like you have some nutrient.
Did I get that all correct? Firstly, daily SG readings are *critical* in determining what is happening with the fermentation. If it is dropping, even 0.001, every day, it is not "stuck" but it is slow. Take the reading for 3 consecutive days and let us know. Secondly, all the replies you got said time is not a factor in determining when to rack -- SG is. 2 weeks after you racked to a carboy the SG is 1.026, it seems you racked too soon.

What juice did you use? (Store-bought, from a vineyard, from a friend with vines?) What yeast did you use?


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## KCCam (Jul 6, 2020)

KCCam said:


> What juice did you use? (Store-bought, from a vineyard, from a friend with vines?) What yeast did you use?


I just re-read my post. I hope I don’t sound “snarky”. I am just trying to get the facts straight. Someone else just got a whole lot of advice based on some wrong information at the beginning, which made all the advice opposite to what it should have been. It would really help to know the SG of the juice you started with. If store-bought, you could buy some more and measure it, otherwise whoever you got it from might be able to tell you. Depending on the yeast, there may just be too much alcohol for it.


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## KCCam (Jul 6, 2020)

Also, I would highly, *highly* recommend you make a batch of DangerDave's Dragon Blood Wine

It is quick and inexpensive, and wonderful to drink immediately after bottling. I guarantee that after making one batch of a recipe that’s been tested hundreds (thousands?) of times over many years, you will be able to answer most of the questions you asked here. And if you read the entire thread, as time permits, cover to cover, you will be helping others with their questions!


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## ZAF (Jul 7, 2020)

@KCCam First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to go over the thread and summarize what happened. You spent time and effort going over my work so I could never take it as being snarky rather someone who is genuinely trying to help. I am really learning a lot.
As for the recipe, I started reading a lot online and about making wine out 100% grape juice bought form the store. This is the second time I use this recipe. The first time went very well. Managed to get SG down to below 1 (0.994). The first batch bottle is now stored and hopefully I'll drink it in a couple of months (I bottled it mid may). Pre-bottling it tasted dry.
The first batch was 1L worth. So i simply tripled the recipe but could not take SG reading.
I re-tested the SG yesterday it was the same as before. I am happy to wait 3-4 days and test again.

I have some of the juice stored I'll take basic SG reading and I'll report back. It will obviously be without the added sugar.

What did you mean by "Depending on the yeast, there may just be too much alcohol for it."?
Thanks a lot for taking the time to read and respond.


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## KCCam (Jul 7, 2020)

ZAF said:


> What did you mean by "Depending on the yeast, there may just be too much alcohol for it."?


Too much alcohol kills yeast, or at least prevents it from multiplying, not sure which. Different yeasts have different tolerance to alcohol concentration. EC-1118 is what every kit I ever made included, and is considered a workhorse. It is very tolerant to temperature changes and alcohol to about 18% ABV. Other yeasts are developed for promoting or inhibiting different aspects of the fermentation. Some yeasts die at much lower alcohol levels. If, for example, your grape juice was 1.080 SG before adding sugar, then adding 2 cups of sugar to 3 L of juice would raise it to about 1.125, which is a very high starting sugar concentration. If fermented dry, it would be almost 19% ABV, so it would never actually be able to ferment all the sugar and would stop at some point before that. At the present level of 1.026 it would be almost 14%. Some yeast might have trouble at that level. 
Knowing you made this recipe before helps too. Did you take notes? If you did you might already have the starting SG from that batch, if not, you should start. Did you use the same type of yeast for both? What type was it?


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## ZAF (Jul 8, 2020)

I used red star dady activated yeast which is advertised up to 15%.
It was a busy day yesterday so I did not get a chance to do the SG for the juice. Hopefully will do it today.
So lets say hypothetically speaking if my original SG was 1.15 and now my SG is 1.026 and it won't go any lower, it could mean that I have hit the limit of my fermentation which is approx 15% and that all the yeast have potentially died. And if that is the case, is it potentially safe to bottle at such high SG?


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## ZAF (Jul 8, 2020)

SG of the same juice without added sugar = 1.064


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## sour_grapes (Jul 8, 2020)

Fermcalc indicates OG should have been about 1.106:


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## sour_grapes (Jul 8, 2020)

If true, your ABV is now about 10.5%. Bottling would be a mistake, IMHO.


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## ZAF (Jul 8, 2020)

Cool I was looking for such a calculator. Very helpful!!!!! Thank you


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## ZAF (Jul 8, 2020)

My thoughts exactly. That’s why I am still waiting.


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## KCCam (Jul 8, 2020)

ZAF said:


> Cool I was looking for such a calculator. Very helpful!!!!! Thank you


Yes, that's the one I found too (probably suggested in this forum -- possibly even from @sour_grapes come to think of it). It does everything. If you are at all technically inclined, the information on there site is also very interesting reading.


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## KCCam (Jul 8, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> If true, your ABV is now about 10.5%. Bottling would be a mistake, IMHO.


I agree. I can’t remember where I saw it — I think it was In someone’s signature here — something like “The only guaranteed way to restart a stuck fermentation is to bottle it.” You don’t want bottles exploding.


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## Bramble (Jul 9, 2020)

Hi everyone.
I am racking now a fruit wine off the pulp and was about to sulfite but recall reading somewhere that is not a good thing to do at this stage (~ 1.020). I probably shoudld have started a new thread but I(not having visited winemakingtalk in a while, have forgotten where the "start new thread" button is hidden... AND I am mid racking process so please excuse my appearence. 

Do those who sulfite, sulfite when racking of the pulp/berries/grape skins mid process, ie, ca. 1.020 SG ?


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 9, 2020)

Bramble said:


> I am racking now a fruit wine off the pulp and was about to sulfite but recall reading that is not a good thing to do at this stage (~ 1.020)


* the reason to not sulphite is that you plan to do a secondary malic acid fermentation on grape wine
* the reason to sulphite is that it is protective and makes better quality fruit wine,


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## Johnd (Jul 9, 2020)

Bramble said:


> Hi everyone.
> I am racking now a fruit wine off the pulp and was about to sulfite but recall reading somewhere that is not a good thing to do at this stage (~ 1.020). I probably shoudld have started a new thread but I(not having visited winemakingtalk in a while, have forgotten where the "start new thread" button is hidden... AND I am mid racking process so please excuse my appearence.
> 
> Do those who sulfite, sulfite when racking of the pulp/berries/grape skins mid process, ie, ca. 1.020 SG ?



The vast majority of us sulfite at the completion of fermentation, indicated by a SG below .997 and unchanged for three straight days.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 9, 2020)

Don't understand why anyone would add sulfite (K-Meta) to an ongoing fermentation. 

It can interfere with fermentation but is not going to be a sure fire way to stop a ferment. Most likely outcome are: 1) Stalled ferment (One that could restart on its own later with no warning) 2) Slow down an on going ferment, 3) Create conditions that stress the yeast or otherwise create off-flavors and odors.

So I would NEVER add K-Meta during a ferment unless I was also going to add Potassium Sorbate as well in an effort to stop the ferment permenantly. Even then there is no guarantee that it will stop when you want - at a specific SG.


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## Bramble (Jul 9, 2020)

Thanks for everyone's input... I got it done!

Scooter68 - some people like to add a pinch whenever racking (or transferring) to counter any potential oxygen up-take... I just assumed that meant any racking operation... even during fermentation. Perhaps it is not necessary as the yeast may take it out themselves.


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## KCCam (Jul 9, 2020)

My understanding is never add sulfite while any type of fermentation is active because it hampers the fermenation.

I've seen people ask about it when transferring from primary to secondary. The confusion *may *come because some people leave everything in the primary until fermentation is complete and stable below 0.998. In this case racking into a carboy is *not* for secondary fermentation, and only for degassing and clearing, so K-meta (sulfite) is added, along with Sorbate to stabilize the wine. This is common with Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood because they are fast fermenters and early drinkers. For grape wine, once all fermentation is complete, and the wine is in a carboy to bulk age, then it needs a little sulfite every so often, and racking is a good time to add it, especially since the racking operation itself will introduce some oxygen.

That's my understanding only... from reading, not from doing.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 9, 2020)

Bramble said:


> Thanks for everyone's input... I got it done!
> 
> Scooter68 - some people like to add a pinch whenever racking (or transferring) to counter any potential oxygen up-take... I just assumed that meant any racking operation... even during fermentation. Perhaps it is not necessary as the yeast may take it out themselves.


The accepted process is to use a measured amount, 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons, rather than a 'pinch' OR if you have the means to measure the SO2 levels in your wine you dose it accordingly.

BUT NEVER during fermentation. And the purpose is to maintain a steady SO2 level. Oxygen uptake during racking is rarely ever going threat to wine unless you leave too much head space or splash it around a lot. Even then "Splash Racking" is sometimes desirable. (See: How To Splash Rack Your Wine )

*KCCam - *You are correct - I would never mess with a fermentation in process by adding K-Meta. Some folks will add both K-meta and K-sorbate to stop a ferment but even that isn't a sure thing since it isn't instantaneously effective so you can only ball park what the SG will be when the ferment stops. 
So essentially K-meta is used for 3 basic things and at specific times:
1) In strong concentration - to Sanitize container and equipment
2) At least 18-24 hours before starting a fermentation during the must preperation - To reduce bacteria and prevent/slow wild yeast from starting a ferment before a desired yeast is added
3) AFTER fermentation to prevent oxidation and provide the third part of the things that help preserve a wine(Alcohol, Acidity, SO2) While some folks do measure the dissolved SO2 content and add a specific amount of K-Meta, the most common approach is approximately every 3 months when racking the wine as it's being bulk aged. The final addition being done just before bottling to ensure that the wine is protected as it continues to age safely in the "Sealed" bottle.


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## Bramble (Jul 9, 2020)

KCCam -Yes, this is a question about transferring... off the fruit remains. About mid way in the fementation process.
It seemed strange to me, but there is a tendency to follow rather than think sometimes. 
Never the less, it did feel it odd and well, my popping up here is a reflection of that.

I think you mentioned an interesting point... 


KCCam said:


> "...once all fermentation is complete, and the wine is in a carboy to bulk age, then it needs a little sulfite every so often, and racking is a good time to add it, especially since the racking operation itself will introduce some oxygen.



If one was not racking, would one want to still sulfite?
(or more to the point, is SO2 becomming ineffective over time in a closed bottle?)

Scooter68 -Thanks. Your ALL CAPS helps build confidence. I am still not completely converted, but to be clear, when you or "most people" transfer off of pulp at around 1.020, sulfiting isn't being done? Stuck here in my own small bubble so your vantage point is appreciated.


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## KCCam (Jul 10, 2020)

Bramble said:


> but to be clear, when you or "most people" transfer off of pulp at around 1.020, sulfiting isn't being done?


Correct. Do not add sulfite (usually referred to as K-meta) at this point.


Bramble said:


> KCCam -Yes, this is a question about transferring... off the fruit remains. About mid way in the fementation process.


Do not add sulfite when racking off the “gross lees” (sediment at the bottom of the primary fermenter - what you are calling “fruit remains” or “pulp”) into the secondary fermenter (glass carboy).


Bramble said:


> If one was not racking, would one want to still sulfite?
> (or more to the point, is SO2 becomming ineffective over time in a closed bottle?)


I’m not sure what you mean by “If one was not racking.” Or what you mean by “closed bottle.” If you mean a carboy with an air lock, that is not a closed bottle. The information already given in this thread is quite clear I think. I might be simplifying here, but sulfite is used for 3 reasons, and never while fermentation is occurring. 1) To sterilize equipment and containers. 2) Before fermentation begins - to kill bad stuff. 3) To prevent oxidation, both during bulk aging and before bottling. Bulk aging means leaving the wine in a carboy or barrel for several months or even years either under an air lock or sealed with a plug of some sort. Many chemical reactions occur during this time and SO2 will be consumed or dissipate slowly, requiring more to be added periodically. Once you bottle, you can’t add more, so you have to make sure enough is there to protect the wine for as long as it might have to be in the bottle. So if you are not bulk aging, then at this point you will only need to sulfite your fruit wine once - after fermentation is complete, in addition to Potassium Sorbate to stabilize, and likely a fining agent to speed up clearing. After a week or so, the wine should be clear, and you rack it (transfer it) to another carboy or bucket, leaving the sediment behind so you can bottle it without worrying about getting sediment in the bottles. Sulfite was added a week ago, so you don’t need more now. If it takes several weeks for the wine to clear, then you may need to add some more sulfite before bottling. If you are bulk aging, then you should rack and add sulfite periodically.


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## Bramble (Jul 10, 2020)

KCCam said:


> I’m not sure what you mean by “If one was not racking.”



That was in response to what you said: "... it needs a little sulfite every so often, and racking is a good time to add it...." I was just wondering what was driving the need for more and more sulfite; is it only oxygen uptake or is there something else at play?

But I think you addresed this already in your last post. Thanks fo setting me straight. It will be easier not having to worry about it any more.

In a closed (not airlocked) bulk storage container, would (over time) supplemental sulfite still be in order?


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## Scooter68 (Jul 10, 2020)

In a word - Yes - periodically more K-Meta is added. Unless you are talking about a final container from which that wine will be consumed once opened. Since corks are porous to a small degree, over time wine can lose some of that protection and be subject to some oxidation. (VERY small but it does happen.) Of course other sealing materials like wax over cork etc can help eliminate that but most folks aren't going to that extent to seal AND most folks probably don't keep their wine that long. (Exceptions do happen but then if you are thinking of keeping certain bottle for long-term... you could add a wax seal too.)

For the most part I think the focus is on what additions are made when from Start to prep the wine must until the bottling time.
So for me... I do it this way
*1) When I first crush or cut up the fruit *1/4 tsp K-Meta / 6 gallons - that kills off bacteria and stuns or forestalls wild/undesirable yeast starting a ferment. (Also the best time to add Pectic Enzyme to help break down fruit cells and free the flavors, sugars etc.)
*2) When Fermentation is completely finished *- 1/4 tsp K-Meta/6 gallons as I rack off the lees and begin the clearing an aging process
*3) Every 3 months as I rack during the aging process* - 1/4 tsp K-Meta/6 gallons

My normal aging time is 9-12 months (less with white/light fruit colored wine that take less time to age). More time with wines that are stubborn and refuse to clear completely even with fining agents.
And one final thing I try to do... since I back-sweeten virtually every wine I make to some degree - I add my last dosage of K-Meta along with K-Sorbate a couple of days to a week before I back-sweeten then wait one more week before bottling. The purpose here is to see if any cloudyness pops up or any additional sediment drops out. That doesn't guarantee that sediment won't surprise you after bottling but I consider that last little step a small preventative measure.


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## Bramble (Jul 12, 2020)

Thanks - it is nice to see the overall flow of things.
One question, How much are you back sweetening, which kind of wines (and ABV's)
Does it make a day and night difference or is it more a fine tuning?

I don't usually backsweeten (but I do actually prefer sweeter wines).

Do you have some sort of system, or is it case by case?
Are there reccomendations for how much to backsweeten diferent wines, a chart or something?

(I guess my "one question" comes from an "alternate system" of counting things....)


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## G259 (Jul 12, 2020)

I think that it is a personal choice, I have taken the SG of commercial wines (Woodbridge), and the varietals came in from .995 (SB), to I think, 1.003 for a PG, most were around 1.000. However, as I learned here, adding acid blend can mask the ambient sugar in the wine (added too much sugar back-sweetening, was told to add acid, it worked!) I didn't test the acidity of each of these varietals however, that may be a future study (whoo hoo!) I try for 'around' 1.000 - .995, depending on the fruit used, I like mine a 'bit' drier, in general. Bench trials.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 12, 2020)

Keep in mind that all the wines I make are fruit based (Not Grape based) That alone changes things up a little. Virtually all fruit based wines are a bit better with a little back sweetening - it brings the fruit flavor forward. Some fruits seem weak on flavor until back sweetened - with blueberry that has certainly been true for me and others.

The amount of back sweetening is purely personal preference. The only thing that would influence that would be the ABV of a wine. That is, most Higher ABV fruit wines are too hot to enjoy without more sweetness - so with more sweetness than normal to cover that higher ABV it puts them into a Dessert Wine category. One advantage of the Dessert wine is that folks tend to drink a little less of that at a time.
BUT - in reality it's all purely personal preference and you will probably find that it varies from one fruit variety to another.

The numbers related to sweetness (SG measured after sweetening) don't matter as much as how it tastes to the maker. To one person with one wine they might consider a wine with an SG of 1.010 Sweet but due to the ABV and other factors (Tartness) it might not seem very sweet. Tart Cherry is a perfect example for me. I made a batch and the ABV was 14.5% and the SG was 1.014 BUT when tasting it the sweetness was mostly covered up by the Tartness and the ABV and you only got a sense for sweetness in the finish. Most of my wines seem to end up between 1.010 and 1.000 and I like sweeter wines. Keep in mind also that a wine that has an SG of .990 before you start sweetening might be fine at an SG of 1.000 where a wine with an SG of .998 before you sweeten might end up at 1.005 and seem no sweeter that the other.

The how and when of back sweetening is also purely personal, but; here is why I do it the way I do:
A new wine is sharper and harder to judge for me and the old 'rule-of-thumb' is that when back sweetening you should stop just short of perfect because as a wine matures that sweetness comes through more. So with that sharpness hitting my palate I find it harder to judge how much is enough.
So I prefer to wait until just before I bottle my wine to do the back-sweetening. That way the wine has normally lost that sharpness and my back sweetening is going to be more accurate for me. Also that means I don't' need to add the Potassium Sorbate as soon either because according to most common information Sorbate can age out and produce off flavors in some cases.
Again that's just my personal approach to it.

The actual method I use is very common/standard among most home wine makers. 
I take a 8oz of wine and add a simple syrup (2:1 ration Sugar to Water) I use little plastic syringes and add about 5cc at a time until it's just about perfect. For a one gallon batch I then figure out the total amount added and multiply that times 15*** for a one gallon batch and add to the wine so it's ready to bottle.

** *(16 cups per gallon less the one cup I've already sweetened) So for a 3 gallon batch it would be the amount added times 47)


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 12, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> The accepted process is to use a measured amount, 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons, rather than a 'pinch' OR if you have the means to measure the SO2 levels in your wine you dose it accordingly.
> 
> BUT NEVER during fermentation. And the purpose is to maintain a steady SO2 level. Oxygen uptake during racking is rarely ever going threat to wine unless you leave too much head space or splash it around a lot. Even then "Splash Racking" is sometimes desirable. (See: How To Splash Rack Your Wine )
> 
> ...


Good morning KC. I am somewhat confused? As to #2 above in your post,* just what is done *with the K-Meta 18-24 hours before starting a ferment?...............Dizzy


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## Scooter68 (Jul 12, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Good morning KC. I am somewhat confused? As to #2 above in your post,* just what is done *with the K-Meta 18-24 hours before starting a ferment?...............Dizzy


When you start a wine must from grapes, or fresh fruit you dose the batch with 1/4 tsp of K-meta per 6 gallons of wine must as soon as you add the grapes or fruit and crush them or immediately after you process them and add them to the fermentation container. That dose is to kill off any bacteria in the wine must and stun or retard any fermentation from wild yeasts. That dose should be allowed to be in there 18-24 hours before you attempt to start the fermentation with your desired yeast (yeast starter mix) so that it doesn't retard or prevent your yeast from working.
That step is NOT done with commercially prepared juices, juice pails, or kit wines unless their directions tell you to do so. Bottled juices have normally been pasteurized or treated during their preparation so if your containers are already sanitized there is no need to do the step 2 that I listed in my post.


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## KCCam (Jul 12, 2020)

@Scooter68 , you have added some amazing, detailed, thoughtful, and complete information here. Thank you. This thread is one for your WMT binder, @DizzyIzzy!


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## KCCam (Jul 12, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> The actual method I use is very common/standard among most home wine makers.
> I take a 8oz of wine and add a simple syrup (2:1 ration Sugar to Water) I use little plastic syringes and add about 5cc at a time until it's just about perfect. For a one gallon batch I then figure out the total amount added and multiply that times 15*** for a one gallon batch and add to the wine so it's ready to bottle.
> 
> ** *(16 cups per gallon less the one cup I've already sweetened) So for a 3 gallon batch it would be the amount added times 47)


My personal method for the few Dragon Bloods I've done was to work out how much wine would be required to make a 1/4 tsp addition equivalent to 1/4 cup per gallon, which is how it is often stated. 

So if you take 1/3 cup of wine (80 ml) and add 1/4 tsp sugar, that is the same as adding 1/4 cup per gallon. If you want to see what 3/4 cup per gallon tastes like, add 3/4 tsp sugar to 80 ml wine (or 3/8 to 40 ml). I can do that without a calculator. Hahaha.

40 ml fits nicely into a shot glass, so I put 40 ml each into 6 shot glasses and add 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 tsp sugar to them. That corresponds to 1/4 cup to 1 1/2 cups per gallon. Now I can go back and forth between them to zero in on the one I like best.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 12, 2020)

Adding SO2 ahead of innoculation is not mandatory.

If it's a grape wine that will undergo malolactic fermentation, do not add sulfite as the malolactic bacteria does not like sulfite.

If the fruit is questionable in any way, do add sulfite. It may not help, but it won't hurt. For instance, if the fruit has been sitting without innoculation for more than a day, I'd add sulfite. To the best of my knowledge, most commercial yeasts are sulfite tolerant.

Other than that, adding sulfite is optional. Most commercial yeasts are bred to stamp out competitors, so wild yeasts will be killed when the commercial yeast is introduced. Adding or not adding sulfite prior to innoculation is wine maker's choice.


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