# Thoughts on starting very small winery.



## whsoj (Jun 22, 2014)

Im looking for thoughts on starting a country fruit winery and meadery. Were I live in nc semi sec fruit wines "Blueberry, Strawberry Blackberry" are very popular. But I dont see any 100% fruit wines commercially avalible, I only see blends. I know nothing about grape growing and cant invest that much money to wait 10+ year for Merlot vines to mature. Im not really looking to make a ton of money, just enough to pay for its self. Just wondering if any of you think it might worth going through the red tape and licensing. Any comments are welcome even calling me an idiot. Thanks in advance.


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## Runningwolf (Jun 22, 2014)

Dear Idiot, LMAO only kidding. If you have access to the fruits get grape juice is no problem for making your blends. Walker's ship all over the country any amount you want. Additionally many wineries do the same thing.


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## salcoco (Jun 23, 2014)

if you don't pay yourself you may be able to break even after a few years. I had a small commercial winery I sold to my partner for health reasons. His daughter took over and seems to be doing well although I don't have access to the books. I would suggest some financial planning before you jump. also expect to work some hours to achieve your dream. It is best to buy all of your product fruit and grapes. good contracts will insure a good product and it is less costly. also you can concentrate on wine making and not farming. Talk to wineries in the area they will be glad to share there thoughts.


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## DoctorCAD (Jun 23, 2014)

How do I turn $150,000 into $1,500?

Start a winery!


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## JohnT (Jul 2, 2014)

The trick here is the startup costs. Depending on your area, and how friendly your town is to the idea, this can cost way more than you might think. I honestly can not see how a commercial operation (one that simply is allowed to manufacture and distribute) can be set up cheaply. 

I would research what is required in your town. Figure on fees and the cost of an attorney, then figure the volume you want to produce, then the cost of the equipment to make that amount, then look at what you need to charge to break even, then consider if anyone would pay that amount. 

This whole though process is what I call "The Dream Smasher".


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## mgmarty (Jul 2, 2014)

This whole though process is what I call "The Dream Smasher". 

Ha! Ha! 


Baco Noir and Seyval Blanc in Utah


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## NorCal (Jul 2, 2014)

Following with interest. I know in CA it would cost tens of thousands of dollars before one could sell the first bottle.


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## UBB (Jul 2, 2014)

Should inquire with GreginND as he is in the process of starting his own winery.


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## Hokapsig (Jul 3, 2014)

I filed with the TTB in April and it wasn't until May that I had all the paperwork in that was acceptable to them. Currently I am in Review Status. I have almost all the PA LCB paper work ready, but it requires $$ to send in this paperwork. It will be well over $1 thousand by the time the state paperwork goes in.


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## Hokapsig (Jul 22, 2014)

Spoke with the TTB today after them having my application for 70 days. The agent said she would review my app and hopefully have something for me within a week. When I get this approval, then on to the state. In the meantime, I will submit my COLA and recipes to the TTB.

Time to start to source wine and juice for the fall.....


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## GreginND (Jul 22, 2014)

I submitted my on-line application in the middle of June. A couple weeks ago the status changed from "Pending" to "Review in process". I had sent a generic email a couple weeks ago asking about time frames. The agent who will review my application called me yesterday to answer any questions I had. She had not even looked at the application yet and it looks like they are really busy. I was told average approval time is currently about 86 days. I told her I wanted to have everything done before the September harvest or my cash flow would be delayed for a full year waiting until the next year's harvest. She seemed to be sympathetic to that and said she'd note that in the file and do what she can. Slowly progress!


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## Calamity Cellars (Jul 23, 2014)

Just a note on TTB applications. They often get lost on a desk. If you go to the TTB website and look up locations you will see two in Cleveland. One is a field office and the other is their main processing center. A kind call to the main processing center seems to help applications get unlost. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Hokapsig (Jul 24, 2014)

I just got my reply and I have 8 items to address. 5 are BS paperwork issues (I listed the full legal name of the winery including the LLC - Do NOT do that). They want more info on my property (tax numbers and such), a diagram of the winery and I need to re-do my OOI form.

I have 15 days to get this info back to them, so I know what I'm doing this weekend.....


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## Hokapsig (Jul 24, 2014)

But Satruday morning, I did make a score to buy a never-used Ebulliometer (possibly without the thermometer) for $500. And my bottler will come home tomorrow night and help me bottle 3 batches....


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## HopsandVine (Aug 8, 2014)

The TTB application for a winery permit does take about 90 days on average. You'll need a bond as well, the total amount of which is dependent upon the amount of tax you'll owe the federal government. You will also need to be licensed in the state you're operating -- and state licenses vary (i.e., in some states, you can complete the application while waiting for the TTB federal permit, but in other states, like New York, your federal permit must be issued before the SLA will approve your state license). From my experience, I have found that you do sometimes need to push on the applications with a phone call -- although it does depend on which specialist is assigned to review it.


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## Hokapsig (Aug 8, 2014)

Hops, I agree. The TTB's site said it would take 65 days and when finally called after 72 days, the TTB said they would have to dig out my application. I have had to re-do 8 questions, all of which have finally been submitted back to the TTB. Time to work on the PLCB state forms.


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## HopsandVine (Aug 20, 2014)

Hokapsig said:


> Hops, I agree. The TTB's site said it would take 65 days and when finally called after 72 days, the TTB said they would have to dig out my application. I have had to re-do 8 questions, all of which have finally been submitted back to the TTB. Time to work on the PLCB state forms.



Definitely don't forget about the state application part. Have you registered with FDA as well (for food facility purposes)? Wineries are generally required to be registered with FDA. It's free for domestic establishments.


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## Hokapsig (Aug 20, 2014)

No FDA registration yet, as a Farmers market/Bakery have asked me to get licensed so they will have the FDA completed (or at least I'm hoping). 

I did send another email today just to see if they forgot about me. Haven't heard back as of yet and I guess you can't send a nasty WTF email. Working on the state license and the additional location application.


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## GaDawg (Aug 20, 2014)

I have been told that if you have more that one acer of grapes, you do not have a hobby, you have a job!


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## GreginND (Aug 20, 2014)

Hokapsig said:


> No FDA registration yet, as a Farmers market/Bakery have asked me to get licensed so they will have the FDA completed (or at least I'm hoping).
> 
> I did send another email today just to see if they forgot about me. Haven't heard back as of yet and I guess you can't send a nasty WTF email. Working on the state license and the additional location application.



I'm trying to remember, didn't you need the FDA registration for your federal application? I thought I had to do that and it was quick and painless. But I may have needed it for my state application. I'm still waiting and haven't heard anything yet.


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## HopsandVine (Aug 21, 2014)

Hokapsig said:


> Hops, I agree. The TTB's site said it would take 65 days and when finally called after 72 days, the TTB said they would have to dig out my application. I have had to re-do 8 questions, all of which have finally been submitted back to the TTB. Time to work on the PLCB state forms.





GreginND said:


> I'm trying to remember, didn't you need the FDA registration for your federal application? I thought I had to do that and it was quick and painless. But I may have needed it for my state application. I'm still waiting and haven't heard anything yet.



The FDA registration is not something the federal TTB winery permit application asks for. However, if producing on a commercial level, it is something a winery will need. It may have been requested on your state application for a license. I'm not sure why it isn't noted or requested on the federal application, as it is an important step.


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## GreginND (Sep 5, 2014)

It's been 93 days and this is all I have heard from the TTB so far . . .

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re72di5phM0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re72di5phM0[/ame]


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## ibglowin (Sep 5, 2014)

Can you call or email them?


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## codeman (Sep 5, 2014)

In general do they approve operations that are in a garage setting? Or possibly a large climate controlled garden shed. (Very clean garage with no car parked inside)


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## salcoco (Sep 6, 2014)

the wine has to be made in a bonded warehouse or in layman's language a place that can be secured. Wine is not taxed on a federal basis until it leaves the bonded area, usually the tasting room or for distribution. TTB site gives you all the requirements.


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## GreginND (Sep 6, 2014)

Yes, you can bond a garage, but you won't be able to use it as a garage any more. It will be a bonded wine production area.

I did write to them. The agent called me back within a few hours. As I suspected, they haven't even looked at the application yet (after 93 days). Even after I talked to them in July and was told they would do their best to get me approved before harvest time. 

I told them if I don't get the licensing done in the next few weeks before harvest, my cash flow (and their taxes) would be delayed until 2016!


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## 4score (Sep 6, 2014)

Wow...a lot of delays and red tape and waiting. What are they so busy doing?


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## Hokapsig (Sep 7, 2014)

I got 2 emails (after sending my emails last week). Although I had an area in the basement set aside as the "bonded area" (a nook beside and under the stairs), the TTB proposed making the entire basement as the bonded area, which I agreed to. 

I also approached the local vo-tech school and found out that they have a graphic arts department. The instructor said that they do commercial printing of labels. I forwarded a list of wine names to the instructor and the TTB's pdf for preparing labels. I would like to have the students give me some labels (or at least some idea for labels) that I can review and send to the TTB. This gives the kids some real world experience and gets me some community good will and possibly some snazzy labels. Maybe the kids parents will come and purchase wine in which thier kid designed the label.....


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## Hokapsig (Sep 7, 2014)

I found out (from the state) that I need a 3 bowl stainless steel sind and a stainless steel handwashing sink installed in the basement. Currently the basement walls are painted/waterproofed, but the basement is unfinished. The state health department may have an issue with that. 

I also have to go and take pictures of the farmer's market with will be the tasting/sales area for the wine. The state permit wants money with all the applications sent to them. I have also been told to file my labels and recipes on the TTB site for approval.


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## GreginND (Sep 7, 2014)

Yes, you will need to submit for label approval. If you anticipate needing labels soon - I would submit what you have as soon as you get your TTB approval. I don't know about your state, but mine is much easier. I'm not in a city jurisdiction so my other issues are not that much of a problem. State is pretty easy. I don't think I need a hand washing sink, but I am putting in a second one anyway. I am mostly worried about not having a handicapped accessible bathroom in the tasting room. I will rent handicap accessible portables during large events but at this time I don't have the $$$ to put in a permanent bathroom. Need some cash flow first.


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## Hokapsig (Sep 13, 2014)

Got an email from the TTB stating they were submitting my application for final approval. Now on to the state license, labels and filing my recipes with the TTB.


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## GreginND (Oct 10, 2014)

Finally after almost 4 months things are happening. I called the TTB a couple days ago and left a message saying it had been another month since they told me they were about to look at my application. Apparently that spurred them to actually look at the application. Other than clarifying some details about my LLC partnership and needing a 5100.1 form (singing authority for LLC partners) the one hangup was that the surety company forgot to add my business name to the bond form. Had to get it amended and initialed to add the name. First time in thousands of bond forms they forgot the name! Anyway, it looks like I should have my license next week!!


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## sour_grapes (Oct 10, 2014)

Hey, Greg, that is great! Progress! You and Ho both so close together. 

I just noticed that the OP of this thread has only posted that one time! Guess we scared him off....


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## Hokapsig (Oct 13, 2014)

We are now working on the PLCB license. But we also went to pick grapes in NC this weekend.


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## GreginND (Oct 14, 2014)

Maybe it doesn't happen so fast? I am not sure what the process is from here. In my on-line application under "Status" it is still with "Specialist Review" and is marked as corrected.

Under that are three more things: Referral Review, Field Review and Manager Disposition. What are those? I was presuming there is nothing more to correct that the application would be approved. I hope these don't take another 4 months each!!!

Can someone who has been through this inform me of what these next steps in the status mean and how much time it might take?

Thanks.


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## Hokapsig (Oct 14, 2014)

Greg, I found that the squeeky wheel gets the oil. The more I called, the faster the process went. It kept my app on the top of the stack. From the time I started calling, it was 6 weeks to the permit.


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## GreginND (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks, but what are the steps after this specialist review? Does it now go to someone else and how do I know who to contact?


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## grapeman (Oct 15, 2014)

Those things are unfamiliar to me. I spoke with one woman who was working with the application, she asked questions for the review, asked for pictures, etc and we had the permit a short while later.


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## Hokapsig (Oct 15, 2014)

Greg, I called the TTB hotline listed on the website. When they answered, I explained that I had submitted my application (have your application number handy) and I wanted to check on my status. I was forwarded to my field reviewer, who reviewed my submissions with me and told me everything looked good (that was a big lie). It took another 3 calls and 4 emails to correct the nit-picky issues. But all is well now....


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## garymc (Oct 15, 2014)

My friend who got a winery license last year sent his renewal in and it sat on someone's desk for a couple of months, then they wanted a $400 penalty for it being late. When you send in your renewal, be sure to have it return receipt requested and know the name of the person who will be signing for it.


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## GreginND (Oct 16, 2014)

Well, here's hoping I will hear back today or tomorrow. I just talked to my reviewer - she is going back and forth with the field reviewer and just needed a couple more dates changed on forms and another signature. She suggested that that should be it and she will get permission to release the approval from the field reviewer.

Fingers crossed . . .


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## GreginND (Nov 3, 2014)

Introducing BWN-ND-21005. 4 Elements Winery has been approved by the federal government. Finally!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 3, 2014)

Congratulations, Greg! Open a nice bottle and try not to think of the hard work before or ahead!


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## Kraffty (Nov 3, 2014)

Congratulations Greg, persistance pays off!
Mike


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## mgmarty (Nov 3, 2014)

Excellent! Congrats 


Baco Noir and Seyval Blanc in Utah


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## grapeman (Nov 3, 2014)

It always seems so long in getting that little piece of paper. Congrats. A month ago would have been nice so you could have made wine under permit this year. Hopefully you can still get some juice to be able to ferment it now.
Good luck with the whole operation!


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## Hokapsig (Nov 3, 2014)

Congrats Greg! I'm now working on the state license and the labels for approval.


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## Runningwolf (Nov 3, 2014)

GreginND said:


> Introducing BWN-ND-21005. 4 Elements Winery has been approved by the federal government. Finally!



Greg great news!!!!!

I heard you had a great time this past weekend. I asked Sue if she was ready to try some wine this morning and I thought she was going to get sick. The AWS conference is a blast and I don't think anyone can even imaging what too much wine is until they attend this event.


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## spaniel (Nov 3, 2014)

GreginND said:


> Introducing BWN-ND-21005. 4 Elements Winery has been approved by the federal government. Finally!



I'm happy for...and jealous of...you!


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## HopsandVine (Nov 4, 2014)

GreginND said:


> Introducing BWN-ND-21005. 4 Elements Winery has been approved by the federal government. Finally!




Congratulations! That's excellent news.


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## GreginND (Nov 7, 2014)

And we received our state license today. We can officially start making wine!


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## Hokapsig (Nov 7, 2014)

AWESOME!!!. 

In PA, the state charges for every little item (background check, additional sales location) and we are still working on the PLCB paperwork. Greg, did you get your labels approved yet?


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## grapeman (Nov 7, 2014)

Still progressing! Way to go. Before you know it you will be in full operation and never again have a spare moment or penny!


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## GreginND (Nov 7, 2014)

No, I need to get formulas and COLAs submitted next. Still trying to figure that out. Apparently I need to create a new TTB on-line registration for that different than what I had for my winery application? I'm trying to figure out how to do formulas - they say they want them before beginning making wine, but I have to start making some things now. I'm still working on my labels. And don't know yet what all I will be able to produce this year.


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## GreginND (Nov 7, 2014)

grapeman said:


> Still progressing! Way to go. Before you know it you will be in full operation and never again have a spare moment or penny!



The pennies have been long gone by now!


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## GreginND (Nov 7, 2014)

And, the registration web page is totally ridiculous.

First - when you go to colas online and click the "new or forgot password" link, you get a pop-up that only has options for resetting your password. You have to actually try to log in with a bogus login and it gives you a page where there is a link at the bottom to register.

So, I went through the entire registration process only to find that clicking the submit button does absolutely nothing. I have no idea how to actually submit my registration to log on. And, it won't save any of my registration and company information, because . . . well, it wouldn't submit.

*sigh*

Any idea how I get onto this?


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## WineQuest (Nov 7, 2014)

As I recall, you have to email them and they set you up with your first password. That's been five years so it may have changed.


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## GreginND (Nov 7, 2014)

My winery permit letter said to go to the website and register.


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## Runningwolf (Nov 7, 2014)

Greg, you have to change your password every six months. Choose a word with a number then when you have to change the password all you have to do is increase the number by one each time to keep it simple. Attached is a label I just got approved for the last wine I developed. IT's not showing up as much as I hoped though.


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## GreginND (Nov 8, 2014)

Dan, Nice label and great advertisement. 

I don't have a problem changing a password periodically, but I need to get a password first! 


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## GreginND (Nov 10, 2014)

After trying all weekend, I finally realized today that it would not submit because there is a pop-up window that must come up to agree that I am being honest in the information I put down. Of course I had my browser security settings set to block pop-ups.

So, application to register for COLAs online has been submitted. But, they say it will take 20 days to approve!?! What a crock. All they have to do is check to see if I have a valid permit and give me a password. Why does it take 20 days to do that? It shouldn't even need the intervention of a human being.

Is this the way it is from here on?


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## WineQuest (Nov 10, 2014)

Yeah, kind of. When you submit labels for approval it can take a while and I have never met anyone that had one approved on the first try. The silver lining is that a resubmit on a rejected label gets head of the line privileges. Send me an email or call and I'll fill you in on some label cheats that I won't post here.


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## HopsandVine (Nov 11, 2014)

GreginND said:


> After trying all weekend, I finally realized today that it would not submit because there is a pop-up window that must come up to agree that I am being honest in the information I put down. Of course I had my browser security settings set to block pop-ups.
> 
> So, application to register for COLAs online has been submitted. But, they say it will take 20 days to approve!?! What a crock. All they have to do is check to see if I have a valid permit and give me a password. Why does it take 20 days to do that? It shouldn't even need the intervention of a human being.
> 
> Is this the way it is from here on?



Are you adding your permit to the COLAs online account? Yes, that takes anywhere from one to two weeks, on average. Sometimes, you can call and it will get added shortly after. I would suggest waiting a week (or a little more) and then calling. There are ways around the two weeks, but it's not common for TTB to add the permit the same day you request it.


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## GreginND (Nov 14, 2014)

Well, it only took 4 days but I got my login instructions today. After trying unsuccessfully to log in to the COLA's on-line - if tried the Formulas button and I got in. I had to add the COLA request to the companies list and now I'm waiting another 4 days? for access to COLAs. Seriously, whoever designed this web site must have been on drugs.


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## ttd666 (May 21, 2015)

Hows your winery going? Curious


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## Hokapsig (May 26, 2015)

In an unlikely event, after being prodded by ffemt, my wife has decided to relinguish her part of the winery to me for the tidy sum of $1. This gets her off of the ownership of the winery (this will appease the 1920's statutes of the PLCB). She will also let me become the manager of the winery (appeasement #2 of the PLCB). From a ruling cited by the PLCB, they will let her continue to own our house which contains the winery and let her continue to have her paychecks deposited into our joint home savings/checking account which will fund the winery. We hope this pleases the powers at the PLCB/PA state police or whoever grants liquor licenses in the state of PA.

Please note that the PLCB now ranks up there with telemarketers, banks and the cable company as my least favorite people to deal with....


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