# Question for Turock about blackberry wine and acid



## croakersoaker (Mar 28, 2013)

any body can chime in if they want. i am about to make 6 gallons of blackberry wine from almost pure blackberry juice obtained by steam juicing.i know that its diluted slighty because of the steam but i dont think its diluted that much.any way if i remember right i tested the ph and it was about 3.0 so my question is can i raise the ph to 3.4 with calcium carbonate and roll with it or do i still need to check with the acid test kit? it seems to me the acid is going to be high enough with out acid blend. is that correct? i used about 75lbs of store bought frozen and fresh blackberries(about 225.00 worth to get 6 gallons of juice). I really love a good strong blackberry wine and im hoping to do it right. thanks in advance for any help


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## Luc (Mar 29, 2013)

Add some banana juice. That will help bringing down the PH but will also add sugar and nutrients. besides that banana's give the wine some body.

Luc


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## WVMountaineerJack (Mar 29, 2013)

I like going 100% juice, we sometimes even just crush the berries and macerate with enzymes overnight and press out the juice and use it that way or steam them like you did but usually only get 1 gallon of juice for every 10 pounds of fruit but there is nothing left but mush when its done juice with the steamer. The acid levels can be harsh, but you have several choices. Treating with a lot of Carbonate I think can throw the blackberry taste and even color off some, we are still debating that with our own berries. If we dont use carbonate we backsweeten between FG 1.020-1.030, honey backsweetens blackberry wine very well. I also dont like the change in color that the carbonate gives, the color is pH dependent and adding carbonate makes it more purple than red. Either way it will turn out great. Do you plan on adding any oak, it goes very well with such a strong blackberry wine. WVMJ


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## Deezil (Mar 29, 2013)

Just to get it out there, pH and TA are two different readings - one is the strength of the acids & the other is the amount of acids present... So doing both tests, is always best... People make do with performing one or the other, but both is preferable.. In this case, i'd guesstimate (with the nature of blackberries) that your TA will be high & you wont need the acid blend

The frozen berries were most likely higher quality than the fresh, as frozen fruit is sold that way because it would spoil before it made it to market (superior ripeness vs 'fresh' produce)

I'd agree with WVMJ, that you'll get 1 gallon per 10-12lbs of blackberries, depending on the size of the berries.. Thats interesting about the color change seen with calcium carbonate in relation to pH; i didnt know..

Hopefully Turock chimes in here, as i still havent got the calcium carbonate additions pre-ferment ( i KNOW Turock stresses pre-ferment acidity adjustments though) to a level where im comfortable with the procedure, myself.. And blackberry is one of my favorites

With the amount of water added from juicing (nobody really knows), i'd suggest taking a TA reading before playing with your acidity too much

Maybe Julie will chime in here, she knows her way around some fruit wines


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## saramc (Mar 29, 2013)

In the future, you may check Walkers Fruit Basket in NY--they have a nice selection of 100% juices. Would definitely save money. But many times part of the fun is processing your own fruit.

Have fun with this though. Has me licking my lips!


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## croakersoaker (Mar 29, 2013)

Help!!!!!!so I went to add calcium carbonate and the directions on my carbonate says 2 tsp lowers acid by .1 my ph was 3.1 so for starters I added 3tsp per gallon thinking I would get my ph to 3.25 but it's now 5.0 what the heck happened according to my math I only added half of what was needed what do I do now?


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## croakersoaker (Mar 29, 2013)

Now I see what I did it actually says 2 tsp per gallon lowers total acid by .1 is it ruined this was a lot of work and a lot of money?


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## croakersoaker (Mar 29, 2013)

Now I see why it did it actually say 2 tsp per gallon lowers total acid by .1 did I ruin all of my work?can it be saved I spent three different days juicing to get this juice not to mention the moneygcc


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## robie (Mar 29, 2013)

croakersoaker said:


> Help!!!!!!so I went to add calcium carbonate and the directions on my carbonate says 2 tsp lowers acid by .1 my ph was 3.1 so for starters I added 3tsp per gallon thinking I would get my ph to 3.25 but it's now 5.0 what the heck happened according to my math I only added half of what was needed what do I do now?



You double posted this as two separate threads. Please don't create multiple threads asking the same question. Thanks.


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## Turock (Apr 1, 2013)

Sorry that I'm late to this thread--was gone for 3 days at the winery doing some bottling.

The thing about calcium carbonate--as you found out--is that you have to add it in small amounts and stir very well and retest. The best way to do this is using 1/4 tsp. at a time. Now that the PH is too high, add some acid blend in small amounts until you get the PH back to about 3.4 Only add the acid in 1/4 tsp. amounts--then much less as you approach the desired PH.

What culture are you going to use on this? 71B is the best culture for blackberry because it metabolizes some of the malic and this gets rid of the harshness that is usually present in blackberry wine.


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## croakersoaker (Apr 2, 2013)

thank you for the reply. I tossed it because i thought it was ruined but have ordered 5 gallons of blackberry juice from walkers.they said that they adjust for sugar content but nothing else so i believe i will need to add it again this time i will be more carefull and add slowly and test often. back to my original question for you. should i just adjust the ph to 3.4 and not worry about acid blend. they said that there juice is 100% undiluted blackberry juice thanks for the help


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## Turock (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm sorry that you got yourself into a mess with this wine. If I had been here, you might not have made that mistake. I'm ALWAYS here--except when I need to get over to the winery. It was sad that just when you needed some input from me, I was GONE.

But the thing about wine mistakes is that they are valuable lessons learned. You've got to be somewhat AR (anal retentive) when making adjustments. I'm glad you tossed the wine--it would have been a BEAR to try a rescue on it.

OK--even tho Walker's told you they have the sugar adjusted, if it were me I would still check the brix of the juice. One thing I've learned in 23 years of winemaking is not to take ANYTHING for granted and not believe anyone until I measure it for myself. So I would check the brix first thing. Then do a PH test. You will never use acid blend in a blackberry wine. It is not imbalanced from not ENOUGH acid--it is imbalanced because of too MUCH acid. So add 1/4 TSP. of calcium carbonate at a time--stir VERY well--retest. As you approach the 3.4 PH, add smaller amounts of carbonate so you don't over-shoot.

If you have it on-hand, I'd like you to use 71B culture on this wine. It does a beautiful job of metabolizing the malic which reduces the harshness on blackberry wine. 71B makes the wine nice and smooth.

If you use another culture, you may need to handle the harshness post-ferment. You would let the wine age 9 months to 1 year, then at bottling time add 1 TSP. of glycerin per gallon to wipe out some of the harshness. This works pretty well, but 71B works better.

Good luck---anything else you need and I'm HERE.


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## croakersoaker (Apr 2, 2013)

thank you i will definately use your procedure and test everything and i will pick up that yeast . the lady at walkers also said they put in pectic enzyme, should i add my own or leave it as is?. Im not sure about pottasium metabisulfite either but she said they heat to 180% when they pack them in the container?


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## Turock (Apr 3, 2013)

It's possible that you wouldn't need to meta this juice pre-ferment. Some people may want to do it but I know many winemakers who never SO2 pre-ferment--especially on bucket juice because they're planning MLF's. We don't use it, ourselves, on bucket juice. But you want to be sure to add meta when you get it over into the secondary. If your PH is about 3.4 then you need about 40 PPM of SO2. 

It would not hurt to give the juice another dose of pectic enzyme. That's one addition that you can't add too much of. Blackberry is so high in solids and the pectic enzyme will help in clearing.

Don't be in a hurry with this wine. Let it sit in the carboy for at least 9 months to age up real nice. While its there, you can oak it if you want.


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## croakersoaker (Apr 11, 2013)

I got the juice from walkers today and the label states 50 ppm sulfites 21 brix and acid level 1.45 would you still us the same procedure ?I haven't tested the sg and ph yet but I will before I start it


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## croakersoaker (Apr 11, 2013)

here's a pic of the label


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## Turock (Apr 12, 2013)

I've never seen a blackberry with a PH like THAT. Be sure to take your own reading and tell me what it is then we'll talk.

The brix is a tad low but it is fine for a fruit wine.


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## croakersoaker (Apr 12, 2013)

I don't think that it the ph I think it is the Ta


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## Turock (Apr 13, 2013)

I thought about that later on. So---what PH did you come up with?


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## Runningwolf (Apr 13, 2013)

The raspberry and cranberry I picked up at Walkers was at about 15 for TA. What I did was held one gallon of juice back in the refridgerator. I replaced it with a gallon of water with sugar added to 21 brix and fermented . After fermentation was completed, racked and stabilized, I reduced the gallon of juice I held back on the stove to about 1/2 or so. When It was still warm I added the predetermined amount of sugar I needed to backsweeten with to this juice then stirred it all into my original batch.


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## croakersoaker (Apr 13, 2013)

I haven't opened it yet as I'm waiting for somevintners harvest cherry to finish in primary then I'll rack it and start this one


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## Turock (Apr 14, 2013)

OK--sounds good. I looked at my brix chart and the potential alcohol on this should be a tad over 12% so that's actually perfect--I wouldn't add more sugar than that.


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## croakersoaker (Apr 14, 2013)

Ok got a new primAry didn't want to wait ph was 3.08 brix was 21 . I am adjusting ph to 3.4 now with calcium carbonate and then I'll add more pectic enzyme. Tomorrow night I'll pitch lakvin 71b 1122 and I'll add half of the yeast nutrient after the lag then the other half at 1.05 . Does that all sound about right?


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## croakersoaker (Apr 14, 2013)

Adjusted to 3.4 took about 1 and a half tablespoons of calcium carbonate and I added 2 teaspoons of pectic enzyme


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## Turock (Apr 15, 2013)

Your plan sounds perfect!!!


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## croakersoaker (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks I've ruined four batches of blackberry. One was too acidic 3.0 two were jam wines that got stuck I thunk because I followed a recipe and added acid blend and the last one was the snafu wig the calcium carbonate. I really have high hopes for this one and only used the pure juice from walkers with no water. Thanks for the help I'll keep you posted


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## Turock (Apr 16, 2013)

I would say that the result of all those mistakes is that you will now be the master of this wine. And if you treat all your wines this way--testing and knowing how to adjust your acids--all your wines will be much better. Don't be in a hurry with it--let it age at least 9 months before thinking about bottling. I know this will turn out great!


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## croakersoaker (Apr 21, 2013)

I was going to add more superferment at 1.050 but it fermented down to 1.030 very fast before I knew itso I added 2 teaspoons on Friday and Saturday I left to go out of town for the night came back today and its at 1.01 and doesn't appear to be doing anything. So I racked it to a 5 gallon carboy and topped up witha bottle of Cabernet and it didn't even fill up the carboy. What should I do now. I used the 71b does it usually stop at 1.01 I would have preferred to get it to 1.0 before racking but didn't want to take any chances. Will it still ferment further if its not doing anything like bubbling?


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## croakersoaker (Apr 21, 2013)

Carboy


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## croakersoaker (Apr 21, 2013)

Is this full enough or do I need more Cabernet.


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## WI_Wino (Apr 21, 2013)

I would top up. I fill mine to just below where the Carboy neck gets narrow.


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## Turock (Apr 22, 2013)

Well, we don't like adulterating our wines with top up wine. We use marbles and glass spheres to fill the carboy. Yes, the level should be up in the neck. So if you like the idea of the Cab, go get some more and top them up.

Another way we top up is using gallon jugs instead of a carboy. It's a good idea to have various glassware available.

Our blackberry finished at 0.99 but even 1 is OK for getting it in the carboy as long as the ferment is not real active and blowing off the airlock. It will finish over in the carboy with no problem. Remember not to bottle it for quite a while--let it age for at least 9 months before contemplating bottling it.


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