# wine ferment and storage room help



## olusteebus (Apr 8, 2018)

I have asked Norcal these questions as he built such a nice wine storage room but I thought I would also post my questions.

I have a wine room that is 24 x12 with concrete floor, roll insulated ceiling with blown foam on top. The walls are roll insulated and covered with plywood.

I plan on building a room in there 6 feet by 12 along the back wall.

I plan on building a 2x4 studded wall with roll insulation. I plan on a floor with 2-inch foam sheets below plywood sheet flooring. The outside walls are roll insulated. I plan on building a lightweight door with 2-inch foam as a core and a skin of underlayment - about an 8th-inch hardwood laminate.

I will have an AC wall unit on an exterior wall, probably a 5000 or 6000 btu unit. The temps I would like to maintain are between 55 and 60 degrees.

My main question is , do I need to use vapor barriers in the floor and walls for moisture control.?

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 8, 2018)

Where in the world are you.
I am a heating and ac guy. The company I work for is also an insulation contractor .
The issues to be concearned with , warm moist air will seek cold dry air. (Warm seeks cold). 
Cold air tends to dry.
Wall mout ac's aren't designed for this.

Definitely seal the walls and lid with pastic glue it up and tape the seams. The floors ill come back to.

Window units can and will freeze at these temperatures but if they are over sized, and dont run long enough and cycles are spaced far enough apart, it will thaw between cycles. (Problem avoided)
The condensate created by cooling can be kept into tne air this way also. Moisture will build on the ac coil as it runs. If it stops befor it begins to drain an the fan stays running, the coil will dry the moiture back into the space.
The size you list should be fine.
The floor
The ground in most of the country 50-60 degrees
Closed cell foam around perimeter and a heavy coat of deck/floor paint (the nasty oil based stuff) or the fancier garage floor paint. And you have a sturdy easily cleanable floor.
Ive seen tile glued over floor paint, looked awsome and is holdong up well.
The slab woks well to help regulate temperature where I am. Half the year it keeps things warmed to 55 degrees.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 8, 2018)

I believe he's in Fla Keith. My cooler is 4' x 6' with a 7' ceiling, way too small and I use a 5000k window unit. It works fine except in the winter where the humidity gets dow to 40%, the summer is better at around 65-70%. The default setting on the unit is 60* and I'm OK with that. I do use an Inkbirk with a humidity sensor. With all that being said do you thing a 5 or 6k would be large enough. His space is 3x the size of mine and he probably has a warmer ambient. You know way more then me about these things but I would use an 8k, especially with the batt insulation being used.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 8, 2018)

I did a little math. 5000 btus is almost 5 times the size needed for standard cooling. Give or take based on r values. I would think doulble would be good. A plan for expantion would be a good idea. More btus wont hurt, short run cycles with continuous fan. 
I would buy a foam core metal door prehung with magnetic weather strip.


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## olusteebus (Apr 9, 2018)

I live in north Florida. Humidity is very high.

Let me see if I understand this. 

I should put plastic on the walls, concrete floors and ceiling. Correct?

The plastic will be below the foam filled floor and on the outside of the wall roll insulation. Correct?

Is 5000 btu's not enough. Should I go with 10000 btu's?

Thanks for your help


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## Johnd (Apr 9, 2018)

olusteebus said:


> I live in north Florida. Humidity is very high.
> 
> Let me see if I understand this.
> 
> ...



Ideally, in high humidity areas like the areas you and I live in, the vapor barrier is best located on the WARM side of the wall. In retrofit, unless you are building new walls, this is sometimes difficult to accomplish, insulating with closed cell spray foam (though more costly) accomplishes the goal pretty easily, as the foam is a vapor barrier, and a great insulator. If you are able to foam the roof and walls, you put your room in a much better spot to be able to avoid the condensation problems and resulting mold / mildew growth that is common when maintaining temps in the 55 - 60 F range in very hot, humid climates.

As far as the slab goes, that's a little more forgiving. My room also has a concrete slab, which was poured on top of a layer of 6 mil visqueen, which is the moisture barrier, and it has no moisture issues. If yours has the same configuration, probably not much to worry about there, consider putting down a layer of visqueen below the 2" foam sheets, just to be safe, it's an inexpensive safeguard.


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## olusteebus (Apr 10, 2018)

I am rethinking what size ac to get. I am considering a btu rating of 8000 to 11000. Would that be too much or is that a concern.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 10, 2018)

I ran a quicky load calc with a free site 
I had to guess at some of your insulation values but two differant sites called for 2k btus cooling.
Seems higher than I would expect but im not in florida.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 10, 2018)

Wine Cellar BTU Calculator – Wine Cellar Joe
winecellarjoe.com › wine-cellar-btu-calc...


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## olusteebus (Apr 10, 2018)

AT BTU calculator I got almost 5000 btu's but that is just for cooling. I think I need more in order to keep it at about 55 to 60 degrees. Not sure but I am looking at a 11000 btu's now.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 10, 2018)

Thats an awful lot. 
You should call whispercool. See what they want to sell you. Be ready to give them r values


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## stickman (Apr 10, 2018)

I agree with @meadmaker1, I ran some load calculations and get around 2,000 btu's. Going up to 5,000 btu's makes sense due to the standard AC btu rating being based on maintaining a warmer room temperature.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 10, 2018)

Had an estimater run it through Cellar Cool with a 95 degree ambiant. To cool to 55 and its just over 2000btus cooling. Id get a cheap used one to test. Spend more if it works ok and have a spare.


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## NorCal (Apr 10, 2018)

Been running strong for 4 years now.


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## olusteebus (Apr 11, 2018)

What I am doing is go with a 500 btu with automatic restart if power goes out- I think I need that suing an inkbird. 

3 inches of 5 r foam floor insulation on slab between 2 x4 covered by ply wood.

4 inches of foam, 7.7 r for interior wall.

I don't know what is in 5.5 inch exterior walls but I suspect it has vapor barrier because the man who built it added an ac unit, most likely. Hope so. I plan on posting images later


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 11, 2018)

That foam sucks for r value
You can get r15 fiberglass that fits a 2x4 wall (r11 r13 r15) probably cheaper too.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 11, 2018)

Don't know what foam you were considering but it does suck. Closed cell which also acts as a vapor barrier is around 6.5/in and open cell which is not a vapor barreir is about half that. Both are relatively expensive. I agree with @meadmaker1 and would just use batt unless you wanted to spring for the closed cell.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 11, 2018)

olusteebus said:


> What I am doing is go with a 500 btu with automatic restart if power goes out- I think I need that suing an inkbird.
> 
> 3 inches of 5 r foam floor insulation on slab between 2 x4 covered by ply wood.
> 
> ...





meadmaker1 said:


> That foam sucks for r value
> You can get r15 fiberglass that fits a 2x4 wall (r11 r13 r15) probably cheaper too.




I think pink rigid foam is about R5 PER INCH, so he is looking at closer to R15 for the proposed 3-inch board. Is that what you meant, 'Bus?


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## mainshipfred (Apr 11, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I think pink rigid foam is about R5 PER INCH, so he is looking at closer to R15 for the proposed 3-inch board. Is that what you meant?



I thing he might have been referring to the wall foam insulation.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 11, 2018)

That sounds closer to what I would expect. There are some low r products out there.
I used r13 for the calculator
I wouldnt trust a vapor barrier that I didnt do myself, or at least see. Glued up is best and tape the seams and corners. Staples work too but run packing tape down each stud/plate, dont leave holes. 
You dont want to have go back and fix it when you could be making or drinking more wine


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## olusteebus (Apr 12, 2018)

meadmaker1 said:


> That sounds closer to what I would expect. There are some low r products out there.
> I used r13 for the calculator
> I wouldnt trust a vapor barrier that I didnt do myself, or at least see. Glued up is best and tape the seams and corners. Staples work too but run packing tape down each stud/plate, dont leave holes.
> You dont want to have go back and fix it when you could be making or drinking more wine




That is what I plan to do. Here is the foam board I will be using. It has an r value of 7.7, I will use two which will bring it to 15.4, Not bad for a wall I guess. Thanks to all


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## NorCal (Apr 12, 2018)

Yea, R value is not that good on the foam board, but it’s costing me less than $100 to run for the entire year, so not that much money on the table to save. That’s with our Placer County 100 degree summers, with the AC kicking on 6 months out of the year 69 degrees on, 65 degrees off.


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## NorCal (Apr 12, 2018)

This is what I used. I think you can see it in the background, if not I’ll take a pic tonight, if there is interest.


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## olusteebus (Apr 13, 2018)

Is that not the same stuff I am using?I knew it wasn't the best but I read where you do not want to use roll insulation when cooling down that low.


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