# Wine topping



## derekjames100 (Feb 6, 2016)

I keep a gallon jug aside for topping off carboys after sampling, racking, etc. Once in a while I drink a glass from the jug.

How long is wine good for in the jug? I know a bottle of wine definitely goes bad after 3-4 days of opening, so how can this stay good for months? Should I keep using it for topping if the taste changes? I don't want to ruin all my other wine. 

What do you guys do?


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## stickman (Feb 6, 2016)

If you're using a jug and the flavor is changing for the worse, I wouldn't use it. I've had the occasional remnant jug laying around with significant head space and sometimes surprisingly months later it tasted fine, but how long to expect it to last is a big variable and I would never use suspect wine to top up my tank, too much risk for me, I just drink it.

After ML is complete, I typically clarify, sulfite, and bottle about 3 gallons in standard bottles. I prefer to use my wine for topping vs. store bought as many of the wines today (especially low cost wine) have some residual sugar, which can cause some microbial problems if added to a 6 month old wine in carboy or tank. Another option is to sulfite some wine on the high side and store it in a bag-in-box (preferably a metalized one), that way you can tap off some top up wine without introducing air. I'm sure others will have their methods.


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## derekjames100 (Feb 6, 2016)

Thanks! I will consider those things? Does anyone keep a jug for months and it works for them?


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## ibglowin (Feb 6, 2016)

It will go bad if you have too much headspace for too long without some form of intervention. I use one gallon jugs to top up my barrels and I backfill them with Argon and a tight stopper. This works great for a couple weeks, then I repeat the process. When I get down to half gallon left in the jug I will rack down to a growler or a couple of 1.5L wine bottles.


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## NorCal (Feb 6, 2016)

I keep an assortment of glass; 6.5, 5, 2.5 gallon carboys. 1 gallon, 64 ounce, 32 ounce glass containers with screw caps. The only pain is storage, but worth it. I also used the "head space eliminator" for a few months without any noticeable degradation in the wine.


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## grapeman (Feb 6, 2016)

I agree with NorCal. Keep a variety of jugs and bottles with stoppers and airlocks. That way when you use some up, you can just move the rest to a smaller container and keep it full.


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## ceeaton (Feb 6, 2016)

derekjames100 said:


> Thanks! I will consider those things? Does anyone keep a jug for months and it works for them?



I kept a 1 gallon jug about 3/4's of the way full with a blueberry wine I made last winter. Went to top up the main carboy and could smell the blueberry sherry I had made as soon as I removed the airlock, so no, a few months and it will not be good to top up your other carboy. I had also Kmeta'd it 2x strength, but never tested how high a level I had achieved. It did make my eyes water from the fumes, but obviously it wasn't high enough to protect it in a 3/4 full jug.


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## hounddawg (Feb 7, 2016)

I use my extra to top off with by using smaller jugs, 1/2 gallon down to wine bottles with drilled stoppers and 3 piece air locks, I age my reds while racking to clear using time and buy keeping several smaller jugs and bottles I go up to 2 years using my original wines kept in 1/2 jugs to wine bottles . just acquire plenty of extra smaller drilled stoppers an air locks.
Richard::










derekjames100 said:


> I keep a gallon jug aside for topping off carboys after sampling, racking, etc. Once in a while I drink a glass from the jug.
> 
> How long is wine good for in the jug? I know a bottle of wine definitely goes bad after 3-4 days of opening, so how can this stay good for months? Should I keep using it for topping if the taste changes? I don't want to ruin all my other wine.
> 
> What do you guys do?


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## Brian55 (Feb 7, 2016)

Why wouldn't you top up with a similar commercial bottle, or something from your home made inventory? Then enjoy whatever is left in the bottle after topping up.


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## Floandgary (Feb 7, 2016)

That'd be the safest/easiest (Brian55).. With all of the $$$ you're saving/bottle, it's worth it to scout around for sales and stock up on toppers for your current batch(es)...


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## derekjames100 (Feb 7, 2016)

I hate to open up an entire bottle of my wine just to top up a little and If I put someone else's wine in my wine then it's no longer my wine and I couldn't pass it off as such. To do so would be dishonest.


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## ibglowin (Feb 7, 2016)

Using that logic it would not be "your" wine as you did not start out with "your" grapes either........


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## derekjames100 (Feb 7, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Using that logic it would not be "your" wine as you did not start out with "your" grapes either........




Good point. I'll probably top off with some Joseph phelps insignia then. What's the most you think I can use and still handout bottles calling it my wine?


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## Brian55 (Feb 7, 2016)

derekjames100 said:


> Good point. I'll probably top off with some Joseph phelps insignia then. What's the most you think I can use and still handout bottles calling it my wine?



As much as you need to top it off. It's still your wine, you made it, you fermented it, blended it, tweaked it, etc.. regardless of where you got the grapes or the juice. The only time it would be deceitful is if you led people to believe you grew grapes if you hadn't, or if you were simply placing your label on someone else's bottles.


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## Brian55 (Feb 7, 2016)

derekjames100 said:


> I hate to open up an entire bottle of my wine just to top up a little.



I love when I have to open an entire bottle just to top up a little bit.


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## NorCal (Feb 8, 2016)

derekjames100 said:


> Good point. I'll probably top off with some Joseph phelps insignia then. What's the most you think I can use and still handout bottles calling it my wine?



A gallon will make 5 bottles, so if you use say a quarter of a bottle to top off, it's still 95% yours, close enough in my books.


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## sdelli (Feb 8, 2016)

NorCal said:


> I keep an assortment of glass; 6.5, 5, 2.5 gallon carboys. 1 gallon, 64 ounce, 32 ounce glass containers with screw caps. The only pain is storage, but worth it. I also used the "head space eliminator" for a few months without any noticeable degradation in the wine.




For the chemistry buffs on this forum... Is it REALLY possible to eliminate head space? I heard no... That is why you REPLACE it with a gas... Yes.. I use those bottle tops that you pump to suck the air out.. Seems to help. But it's goal is for a couple days. I do not agree to leave a carboy half empty and believe anything will remove all the oxygen characteristics...
Just because you put it in a vacuum isn't oxygen still present?
Maybe just me.....


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## JohnT (Feb 8, 2016)

NorCal said:


> A gallon will make 5 bottles, so if you use say a quarter of a bottle to top off, it's still 95% yours, close enough in my books.


 
This is exactly what I was going to suggest.. 

I think that everybody here agrees that there is nothing wrong with having a smaller jug for top off. That is perfectly fine. The real issue (just to be clear) is that you are leaving the top off jug only partially filled. 

Use standard wine bottles. Like norcal said, you should get about 5 full bottles. This way you can open a bottle, top off, and drink the remainder, leaving the rest of you top off bottles full and with minimal headspace. 

I use 60 gal oak barrels and have 3 or 4 half gallon jugs that I use for top off. I find that a barrel top off will take most of a half gallon, but still leave me some for sampling.


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## ibglowin (Feb 8, 2016)

Yes, you can eliminate headspace air, you just need to right tools. A Vacuvin pump can't do it as it is not strong enough and the rubber stopper leaks. 

But if you use a good electric vacuum pump that can pull ~20" Hg and have a tight seal on everything so it doesn't leak back in after you pump out the headspace you have no worries about oxidation anymore.



sdelli said:


> For the chemistry buffs on this forum... Is it REALLY possible to eliminate head space? I heard no... That is why you REPLACE it with a gas...


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## sour_grapes (Feb 8, 2016)

sdelli said:


> Maybe just me.....



I don't believe that it is just you.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 8, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Yes, you can eliminate headspace air, you just need to right tools. A Vacuvin pump can't do it as it is not strong enough and the rubber stopper leaks.
> 
> But if you use a good electric vacuum pump that can pull ~20" Hg and have a tight seal on everything so it doesn't leak back in after you pump out the headspace you have no worries about oxidation anymore.



Mike, I know 20" is near perfect vacuum where you live, but for the rest of us, that would only remove about 2/3 of the oxygen. Why don't you think the remaining 1/3 of oxygen is problematic?


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## ibglowin (Feb 8, 2016)

Lets just say I have access to some of the finest analytical GC/MS (gas sampling) instrumentation your tax dollars can buy.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 8, 2016)

I understand that you cannot discuss in detail, but do you find a stoichiometry that is significantly different from air?


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## ibglowin (Feb 8, 2016)

The ratios (percentages) are the same as far as 02/N2 its just not enough O2 left to worry about IMHO especially since I only use it for a few days until it clears well which is like 7-10 days max, then I rack and top up. I do GC and GC/MS on both liquids and gases every single day at work. We have some really nice gas sampling manifolds including pumping stations with both rough and turbo pumps. We use quick disconnects that allow you to pump down a system, then attach an evacuated sample container to it, attach, open valve, expand into container and then close the valve and attach to GC or GC/MS and expand into manifold and analyze.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 8, 2016)

Yes, you can eliminate headspace air, you just need to right tools. A Vacuvin pump can't do it as it is not strong enough and the rubber stopper leaks. 

But if you use a good electric vacuum pump that can pull ~20" Hg and have a tight seal on everything so it doesn't leak back in after you pump out the headspace you have no worries about oxidation anymore.

Well if people are using the allinone which pulls a steady 22 in of vacuum with the headspace eliminator - a tool that keeps the vacuum trapped in the carboy - would you say that it is a good thing then ?


I know if you can flood the carboy with a inert gas it would be best - But there are alot of people who do not have access to inert gas.
Thanks Steve


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## hounddawg (Feb 8, 2016)

hum after reading the last 3 or 4 tech remarks made here this simpleton hillbilly is dropping a 10mg opioid with 750 ml of wine, followed by a Xanax.
I've just been set back years on what I once considered simple wine making,:: jeeze karma is such a ***** anymore,,, lol
Dawg (puppy)


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## sdelli (Feb 8, 2016)

Bottom line... Do not leave head space and replace it with gas!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> It will go bad if you have too much headspace for too long without some form of intervention. I use one gallon jugs to top up my barrels and I backfill them with Argon and a tight stopper. This works great for a couple weeks, then I repeat the process. When I get down to half gallon left in the jug I will rack down to a growler or a couple of 1.5L wine bottles.



How long is to long with 6 inches of headspace in a glass carboy?


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## sour_grapes (Feb 8, 2016)

Here is what I don't get: On this forum, if you show a picture of a carboy with headspace equaling 1 wine bottle, random people will yell at you, unbidden, to top up your carboy lest it be ruined by oxidation. If you show a picture of a carboy with headspace equaling, say, 5 wine bottles, but you pulled a 20" vacuum on it, people will give you a thumb's up. And yet the latter contains a lot more oxygen than the former.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 8, 2016)

@ Paul -

I would have to find the video where i used the headspace eliminator to remove a bottle of wine and suck it in by vacuum alone - I believe the numbers were approx 43 ml difference - 

but I will do more back checking -

here is the actual live video testing 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWfUOU6Z1ZE[/ame]

so 5 bottles of headspace equals approx 305 ml when using the headspace eliminator - that is less than 1/2 of a bottle in a 5 bottle area.

And hopefully the CO2 will compensate the aid in the reduction of headspace - You can always add a heavier gas mixture to aid in this process


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## Brian55 (Feb 8, 2016)

Here's what I don't get. Why not simply top up with a similar wine, be it store bought or something from your personal inventory?
As a side note. I have access to vacuum pumps that will pull down to 28hg. But I no longer use them since I have no idea as to what else you're pulling out at that point?


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## Brian55 (Feb 8, 2016)

sdelli said:


> Bottom line... Do not leave head space and replace it with gas!



Do not leave head space, replace it with wine!!!!!!!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Here is what I don't get: On this forum, if you show a picture of a carboy with headspace equaling 1 wine bottle, random people will yell at you, unbidden, to top up your carboy lest it be ruined by oxidation. If you show a picture of a carboy with headspace equaling, say, 5 wine bottles, but you pulled a 20" vacuum on it, people will give you a thumb's up. And yet the latter contains a lot more oxygen than the former.



I have been trying to find the answers to this for at least a week. 
I never worried about this until a couple weeks ago. Always having headspace I feel my wines suffered now I know why. Any hoo I must be asking the wrong questions, because I came across the last half of the "wine topping" thread and found the answers. lol 

What is a private message?

Thanks


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 8, 2016)

What is a private message?

Thanks[/QUOTE]

It is when you give a private message to an individual


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

Brian55 said:


> Do not leave head space, replace it with wine!!!!!!!



I'm making Vintners Black currant, what do I fill the void with if I' m wanting Vintners Black currant?


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## sour_grapes (Feb 9, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I'm making Vintners Black currant, what do I fill the void with if I' m wanting Vintners Black currant?



Rather than fill the void, you can rack down to a smaller container. Or you could add glass marbles (clean, lead-free) to the carboy.


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## NorCal (Feb 9, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Here is what I don't get: On this forum, if you show a picture of a carboy with headspace equaling 1 wine bottle, random people will yell at you, unbidden, to top up your carboy lest it be ruined by oxidation. If you show a picture of a carboy with headspace equaling, say, 5 wine bottles, but you pulled a 20" vacuum on it, people will give you a thumb's up. And yet the latter contains a lot more oxygen than the former.



When I make a 30/60 gallon barrel, I try to make enough extra in a carboy to satisfy the topping needs. I am very protective of the barrel and was skeptical of the ability of the head space eliminator to protect my wine (as I posted in another thread). At this point I had all my 1 gallon and 64 ounce containers filled with other wine, so I was kind of in a bind, because I needed to rack the barrel. I decided to give the HSE a try and it worked for me. I've since bottled the rest of the topping wine. I'm pragmatic and the HSE proved to be a useful tool when I was in a bind.


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## kevinlfifer (Feb 9, 2016)

I'm with Brian, I now have 500+ bottles on the rack, so what if I have to drink two extra glasses on top off day.


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## sdelli (Feb 9, 2016)

Even if it did work... Which I still doubt all oxygen is gone.... I do not want to age my wine under vacuum!


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## sour_grapes (Feb 10, 2016)

vacuumpumpman said:


> so 5 bottles of headspace equals approx 305 ml when using the headspace eliminator - that is less than 1/2 of a bottle in a 5 bottle area.



So, Steve, have you officially changed your estimate of the pressure your pump pulls? The numbers you just cited indicate a vacuum gauge pressure of 27.5 inHg. That is great! This is about what I calculated way back when when you first posted your video. It is not easy to build an oil-free pump that draws that deep of a vacuum -- you should be very proud.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 10, 2016)

sdelli said:


> Even if it did work... Which I still doubt all oxygen is gone.... I do not want to age my wine under vacuum!



Why do you not like vacuum?, I thought this was the best way to store or bulk age.

Please tell me your thoughts.

Thanks


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## JohnT (Feb 10, 2016)

Topping up with wine is THE best option. 

When Topping up is not an option, and you have no choice but to deal with excessive headspace, A vacuum eliminator is one of your better alternatives. 

I do not use a vacuum because I use Variable Capacity Stainless Steel Tanks, but if I ever had to face excessive headspace, I would top up.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 10, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> So, Steve, have you officially changed your estimate of the pressure your pump pulls? The numbers you just cited indicate a vacuum gauge pressure of 27.5 inHg. That is great! This is about what I calculated way back when when you first posted your video. It is not easy to build an oil-free pump that draws that deep of a vacuum -- you should be very proud.



NO Paul - 
It has always been 22 in of vacuum - tried multiple gauges and this is the vacuum that the pump was designed around including the CFM also. 

I just tested 10 pumps all in a row - all had the same readings (22 in hg ).


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## sdelli (Feb 10, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Why do you not like vacuum?, I thought this was the best way to store or bulk age.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There are many things that can damage wine. A few of the main ones are light, temperature, and oxygen. I am not sold that an area under vacuum still does not contain some elements of oxygen. I also do not like the idea of aging my wine under a vacuum. Not sold on what it might do to the wine over time. I do not run my wine through a transfer pump either. I pay way too much for my grapes to take these chances.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 10, 2016)

vacuumpumpman said:


> NO Paul -
> It has always been 22 in of vacuum - tried multiple gauges and this is the vacuum that the pump was designed around including the CFM also.
> 
> I just tested 10 pumps all in a row - all had the same readings (22 in hg ).



Steve, You have a discrepancy between your gauges and the results reported on your video. It is not possible for them both to be correct.


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## Brian55 (Feb 10, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Why do you not like vacuum?, I thought this was the best way to store or bulk age.
> 
> Please tell me your thoughts.
> 
> Thanks



With easy access to a variety of vacuum pumps (work related) I used to keep my wine bulk aging under vacuum for about a year without knowing if or what the constant vacuum was removing from my wines (aside from the undesirables such as co2) during that time. As I haven't found any documented scientific research regarding this topic, I no longer keep my wines under vacuum for anything more than transfer, and will continue to top up with wine until solid research has been performed regarding the effects of vacuum and the possible removal of aromatics and such...


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 10, 2016)

Brian55 said:


> With easy access to a variety of vacuum pumps (work related) I used to keep my wine bulk aging under vacuum for about a year without knowing if or what the constant vacuum was removing from my wines (aside from the undesirables such as co2) during that time. As I haven't found any documented scientific research regarding this topic,



Brian55
Did you have any issues with your wines that were under a vacuum for about a year or so ?


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## JohnT (Feb 11, 2016)

Here is another thought (on the other hand)... 

The absence of all oxygen will inhibit the proper aging of your wine. 

If you do big bold reds like me, new wine (newly fermented) is just loaded with tannins. The tannin load in new wine can make the wine taste bitter. Low level exposure to oxygen (or Micro-oxidation) will, in effect, nullify some of the tannins in the wine to yield a softer, smoother, wine. This is a big part of the ageing process. 

Now, I am not saying that one should have long term exposure to excessive oxygen. What I am saying is that a low level, short term exposure to oxygen is beneficial to your wine. 

The point here is that you do not need to be overly concerned about racking or an inch of air in your carboy. This can be beneficial. What you should worry about long term exposure and excessive headspace. Just keep the jug filled, and you will have nothing to worry about.

I love the movie "Bottle Shock" where they say that their chardonnay was made in the absence of oxygen, but then they talk about racking the wine 5 times and also show how the wine is barrel aged. Both of those activities will introduce oxygen (at least at a micro level) into the wine. Given that typical chardonnay has a big load of tannins, you WANT a little exposure to oxygen to soften the wine up. The movie always gives me a laugh and when others in my group show concern over the chardonnay, I have to explain things to them.


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## Brian55 (Feb 11, 2016)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Brian55
> Did you have any issues with your wines that were under a vacuum for about a year or so ?



Nothing obviously wrong with them, but I didn't do any A-B comparisons with and without vacuum. For reference they were all topped up with similar wine to within an inch or two as well. I've got a couple three gallon carboys. I could split a kit and do an A-B to see if and what the effect of constant vacuum might be. I stopped aging under vacuum because the more I read and learned about wine making, the more it seemed like it was either overkill, or even possibly damaging to my wine. A simple airlock does the job. I currently only use vacuum to transfer at the point of stabilization, and I don't use more than 15-20hg. I don't think anyone using your product for transfer or bottling has anything to worry about. I just wouldn't recommend long term aging under vacuum until someone has proven it to be beneficial.


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## ibglowin (Feb 11, 2016)

Did I miss where someone was advocating "aging under vacuum"? 

I thought we were only talking about using vacuum as a short term tool (like inert gas) while the wine clears. Not long term bulk aging as in months and months.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 11, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> I thought we were only talking about using vacuum as a short term tool (like inert gas) while the wine clears. Not long term bulk aging as in months and months.



I believe that's Steve's recommendation with the headspace eliminator. A few weeks, maybe a month or so.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 11, 2016)

sdelli said:


> For the chemistry buffs on this forum... Is it REALLY possible to eliminate head space? I heard no... That is why you REPLACE it with a gas... Yes.. I use those bottle tops that you pump to suck the air out.. Seems to help. But it's goal is for a couple days. I do not agree to leave a carboy half empty and believe anything will remove all the oxygen characteristics...
> Just because you put it in a vacuum isn't oxygen still present?
> Maybe just me.....



Could one slice a apple into pieces, lay half on the counter top, vacuum the other, and tell if (vacuum ) makes a difference?

Wait a day and taste. Hummm...???


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## ibglowin (Feb 11, 2016)

Thats what I was thinking to.



Boatboy24 said:


> I believe that's Steve's recommendation with the headspace eliminator. A few weeks, maybe a month or so.


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## Floandgary (Feb 11, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I'm making Vintners Black currant, what do I fill the void with if I' m wanting Vintners Black currant?



Here's where you do your research. Look up a couple of the basic hearty Reds, (Cab, Merlot, Syrah, Petit Verdot, Carmenere, Malbec to name a few), and find out what the dominant flavors are. Wikipedia usually gives a comprehensive rundown on wines. Off hand I'm guessing Cab-Sauv or Syrah


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## Thormo (Feb 16, 2016)

Argon gas every 3 weeks will keep your carboys in good condition.


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