# When to add the oak chips? Primary? Secondary? Bulk ageing?



## abefroman (Jan 3, 2011)

When to add the oak chips? Primary? Secondary? Bulk ageing?

How long do I keep the oak chips in?

Do I want to stir them daily?

This is for the merlot and cab franc, 6gal each, I want a slight oak taste, but nothing over powering.

I have 2 90g oak chip packs

TIA


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## Runningwolf (Jan 3, 2011)

Abe, are you asking these questions when you pick up the product? What do they tell you?


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## abefroman (Jan 3, 2011)

Its an MM kit, I'm not going by their instructions, and the oak chips are the only thing left I am not sure on.


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## jiml (Jan 3, 2011)

I am a new winemaker but if you are asking these types of questions, why aren't you following the kit directions?

It seems pretty clear you don't know enough knowledge(do some research) to just do whatever you want.

But to answer your question, if you aren't going to follow the directions of the kit, you could technically add them at any point. Secondary might be easier compared to primary since CO2 wouldn't make them float up as much(resulting in less control over how oaked it gets. 

As to how long, that depends on how much oak you want. If you do it while bulk aging, you can take a sample every week or so to determine when it has enough oak and rack the wine off the oak.


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## abefroman (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> I am a new winemaker but if you are asking these types of questions, why aren't you following the kit directions?
> 
> It seems pretty clear you don't know enough knowledge(do some research) to just do whatever you want.
> 
> ...



The main think I'm not following is it says to rack off the primary at 1.05, which is where it tells you to add the oak chips, for like 6 days, and it says to stir them daily.

6 days seem a little short, no?

Does stirring make a big difference?


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## jiml (Jan 3, 2011)

It depends on how much oak(quantity of chips) is included and how much oaking that type of wine typically gets.

Stirring will make a difference. Either the chips will float and get less contact with wine. Eventually they will sink. If you don't stir them, they will just sit at the bottom without much contact with the wine reducing the amount of oaking the wine receives.


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## Rock (Jan 3, 2011)

maybe this can help.www.finevinewines.com/c-145-oak.aspx
By the way i never stir when using oak chips or cubes.


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## abefroman (Jan 3, 2011)

Rock said:


> maybe this can help.www.finevinewines.com/c-145-oak.aspx
> By the way i never stir when using oak chips or cubes.



Interesting, that is saying 2 months, and the MM instructions say 6 days, for 90g which is just over 3 oz.


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## jiml (Jan 3, 2011)

abefroman said:


> Interesting, that is saying 2 months, and the MM instructions say 6 days, for 90g which is just over 3 oz.



It also depends on how much oak you need for the type of wine you are making. 

For instance, a Chardonnay could be oaked or unoaked. 

Stating 2 months is just vague as it depends on how much oaking you need for the wine. Most of the kit manufacturers spend a lot of time determining what is going to make the kit the best it can be. 

I believe most people here would suggest that following a kits instructions is going to make kit the best it can be.


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## ibglowin (Jan 3, 2011)

Believe it or not oak chips will give up the goods in a week. 
I actually do have the data to back this up. If anyone is interested, just PM me. 
No need to stir daily but if your in a hurry then stirring will assist in the extraction process.


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## jiml (Jan 3, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Believe it or not oak chips will give up the goods in a week.
> I actually do have the data to back this up. If anyone is interested, just PM me.
> No need to stir daily but if your in a hurry then stirring will assist in the extraction process.



Could you post the data? I think it would be valuable for everyone to see. I have seen people mention exactly what you say but I haven't seen anyone say they have data to back it up.


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## ibglowin (Jan 3, 2011)

Its a PDF and it appears you can attach PDF's. I have the study at work so I will post it tomorrow morning first thing.



jiml said:


> Could you post the data? I think it would be valuable for everyone to see. I have seen people mention exactly what you say but I haven't seen anyone say they have data to back it up.


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## jiml (Jan 3, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Its a PDF and it appears you can attach PDF's. I have the study at work so I will post it tomorrow morning first thing.



Awesome, I look forward to reading it.


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## FTC Wines (Jan 4, 2011)

I oak my reds & apple for 2 months 8-10 table spoons per 5 gal in a mesh bag with sterilized marbles & tied & supported with fishing line. I think that's Jack Kellers method. No stirring, the oak taste is perfect for my taste buds. It gives the apple a "oaked chardonnay" taste. roy


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## JohnT (Jan 4, 2011)

OK, 

My opinion of this... 

you need to make some decisions... 

1) the TYPE of oak flavor you want 
2) the Stength of oak flavor you want. 


type of flavor- There are thousands of flavor compounds in wood that neatly fall into one of two catagories, Deep and surface. 

surface oak will yield the most commonly recognized armomas of wood (much like sniffing a oak board). These flavors are extracted from the surface of taosted oak and are very quick to be extracted (as little as a week). 

Deep oak will yeild the more subtile, and most saught after flavor compounds such as vanillia. These compounds tend to be far less aromatic, but a prized flavor component of award caliber wines. 

The deep oak is extracted from the carmalized wood that is located in the layers benieth the surface of the wood and can take WEEKs to extract. Size of the oak you use also matters since you will need to have a certian level of thickness in your wood to facilitate the caramelized stratum.


In short, If you are hunting for the taste and armoa of the wood, then 1 week should be enough.

If you want to go for the deep oak, i would suggest that you not go with oak chips and, instead, go with the much thicker oak beads. I would leave the oak in your wine for 4 to 8 weeks. 

Also, Try to avoid stirring your wine every day. Although the oak will float, in time the oak will sink to the bottom, spreading out to give good exposure. 

Stirring will serve to airate the wine and will only increase the chance of oxidation and will also reduce the amount of tanic acid present in the wine. 

{Knock on Wood}

The stength of wood flavors is best controlled by the amount of wood you add to your wine and not by the amount of time the wine is exposed to the wood. You need to simply experiment with this to find the right amount. I would suggest creating several batches of wine at once and introduce vayied amounts of oak for varied amounts of time to find what you like best.


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## ibglowin (Jan 4, 2011)

*Artificial Aging of Wines Using Oak Chips*

As promised!

The main thing if you don't want to read through the entire scientific article is that while there are quite a few compounds in oak that get extracted by placing it in a 12-15% solution of Ethanol (i.e. Wine) Oak lactone is the most significant compound and the one that determines quality and acceptance by the consumer. 

Table 1 list the uptake of all compounds by wine during the artificial aging process. Oak lactone levels are shown to peak in the wine at 5 to 7 days depending on the sample. Please note that there were 8 samples and they were done in triplicate. The graph is a little hard to understand at first. 

Look at the Time (in days) and then the level of Oak lactone which is expressed in mg/l. 

View attachment Artificial Aging Of Wine Using Oak Chips.pdf


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## Czaccary (Mar 3, 2022)

abefroman said:


> When to add the oak chips? Primary? Secondary? Bulk ageing?
> 
> How long do I keep the oak chips in?
> 
> ...




did you ever figure out how long to let them sit? during primary or secondary? I would prefer to let them sit couple of months with no stirring, so im assuming once the wine has been cleared and no sediment at the bottom.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 3, 2022)

@Czaccary, abefroman hasn't been on WMT since 2018. Mouse over the person's avatar, and a popup with their "last seen" date will appear.


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