# Any one used Lalvin 71B-1122 for acid reduction?



## Adame (Apr 3, 2013)

I was reading about using Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast for acid reduction on high acid grapes and was wondering what disadvantages there may be to using it? Does anyone have any experience with this?


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## djrockinsteve (Apr 3, 2013)

I use Lavin exclusively and have used that strain often. My acid drops out during cold stabilization, often while they are clearing prior to that. 

Rob told me his Brianna was acidic while ours was not yet they came from same batch. Not sure what strain he used on it, I used EC-1118

I didn't take a reading since it was so good. 

I fermented on the Brianna and Lacrosse skins the wild yeast but haven't bottled it yet. I will let you know.


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## grapeman (Apr 3, 2013)

It works well for a fruity high acid cold climate grape. I use it quite a bit for whites.


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## Pumpkinman (Apr 3, 2013)

I used it on one batch of Amarone, it has created a very nice wine, one of my favorites.


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## wineman2013 (Apr 3, 2013)

1112 works to drop Malic durring primary by 3 to 10 percent .

Maurvin b works even better , and drops Malic by 55 percent durring primary .
If you are working with high acid very low ph hybrid grapes this yeast is a great way to get the ph up and allow you to innoculate with MLB that normaly won't start with a ph of 3.2 or lower .

And in a white wine is a great way to smooth out a high acid white like reisling without doing mlf
http://www.maurivin.com/media/21.pdf


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## Adame (Apr 3, 2013)

I grow Marechal Foch , Lacrosse, and Catawba. Last year I used a sugar water mixture to bring the acid down. The wine is really watery as a result. Thought this may be a better option.


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## djrockinsteve (Apr 3, 2013)

This year don't add water. Acid can be reduced several ways plus were you able to get all the juice out of those thick skins? You need all of the juice and pressing alone won't get that.


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## jimmyjames23 (Apr 3, 2013)

Calcium Carbonate works too. 

But a low acid producing yeast is a huge helper.


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## Adame (Apr 3, 2013)

Watery and still tart!


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## Adame (Apr 3, 2013)

Would calcium carbonate be more for "fine tuning", not large adjustments?


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## Inferno (Apr 3, 2013)

have you tested for TA ? what kind of numbers are you getting?

my normal plan of attack with high acid varietals is to use Maurvin B , then do MLF , when its done I cold stabilize .
if its still sharp I add 3 tsp per carboy of a product called biolees then age for a year.

I do this and it works well , I find carbonate makes the wine taste a bit like pond water and kills the fruit flavors so thats why I don't use it. 

if all that isn't enough , I have used a couple juice pails added to the must to bring fruit up and acid down.
I use zinfandel with foch and and merlot or cab sauv pail with frontenac.
1 pail added to 200 lbs of crushed grapes before pitching the yeast.
this worked well with fruit from young vines . as the vines get older I use the first method.


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## Turock (Apr 4, 2013)

I can tell you with confidence that you can move the PH 6 tenths with calcium carbonate and not encounter any chalky off-flavor. We do it every year on our blackberry.

POTASSIUM carbonate is used for minor tweaking only in the post ferment. However, it can damage the nose and flavor of some delicate wines. We don't even own any potassium carbonate because we always acid adjust at the primary pre-ferment.

Adame--the only time you use water for acid adjustment is when working with a fruit that is extremely acidic where using all calcium carbonate would be prohibitive--like on Mustang grapes that start with a very,very low PH. Otherwise, shun the water for acid adjustment and go to calcium carbonate. Many years ago we finally discovered this secret and our wines became first class because of it. Water also becomes necessary in some wines like red raspberry--if you try to make it with no water, the result is not as good as a traditional recipe. But for the most part, we use no water on over 99% of our wines.


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## jimmyjames23 (Apr 4, 2013)

+1

I use CC all the time. I get mine naturally from cleaned, de-membraned, baked, crushed eggshells.


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## Inferno (Apr 4, 2013)

try the maurvin B , mlf and colds stabilising , I assure you on a cold climate grape wine, it will produce the best results.
the malic will be metabolised by the yeast softening the wine , mlf will enhance complexity convert the remaining malic to softer lactic acid and bring out the fruit and if needed cold stabilisation will drop some tartaric further softening the wine. if this approach can work on frontinac , it can work for most high acid wines.

carbonate offers none of these benefits , and involves adding something thnot normaly a part of grape winemaking practice.


if you are working with 16 g/l type fruit , you could do the fermentation and stabilisation protocol above and if after all that and cold stabilising its still to sharp , I would reccomend blending in some low acid wine instead of carbonate . 
some of the best cold climate wines I've tasted have had some central valley or lodi wine blended in atg barreling . some cv cabernet sauvigion is a great way to add a little tannin (something many hybrids lack) and since alot of it is about 4.5 g/l TA it can balce a high acid wine.

10-20% of this blending can work wonders 

if you must use carbonate most of the literature says to add your carbonate prior to primary fermentation minimising any potential negative fruit impact.


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## Adame (Apr 4, 2013)

I actually tried the crushed eggshells in a 6 gallon carboy. I used four eggs, cleaned them, removed the membrane, and baked them at 350. Left them in the carboy from Sat. until last night. The wine mellowed out a lot but now it taste like eggs!


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## Adame (Apr 4, 2013)

I used the accuvin TA test strips for testing my acid. Starting TA was in the red so it was +10g/l.


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## Adame (Apr 4, 2013)

This is a picture of the foch at harvest.


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## GreginND (Apr 4, 2013)

Hmmm, anyone know how those accuvin test strips work? I can't imagine it is that accurate. But if it gives you a ballpark TA that may be useful.


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## djrockinsteve (Apr 4, 2013)

Never had success with them. That's why many of us bought the meters.


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## Inferno (Apr 4, 2013)

a couple of tips with foch , use optired or redstyle durring primary to fix the colour and tame the wild flavours a bit .
use medium toast american oak chips in the primary to fix colour add a little tannin and reduce green character.

then press at about 5 brix , getting the wine off the skins early will reduce the metalic character foch gets when left on the skins too long.


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## grapeman (Apr 4, 2013)

Just a bit of an observation here: maybe you were forced to pick early, but those grapes look like they needed about 3 weeks more ripening- way to many green and pinkish purple grapes and not enough deep blue/black. This would explain the high TA and low pH. It also leads to low alcohol. The wine will be a lot better if ripened up more to get color easier and leave less of the metallic taste inferno mentions. To me sometimes it is medicinal tasting as well. These are all reasons I prefer Leon Millot over Marechal Foch.


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## jimmyjames23 (Apr 4, 2013)

Adame said:


> I actually tried the crushed eggshells in a 6 gallon carboy. I used four eggs, cleaned them, removed the membrane, and baked them at 350. Left them in the carboy from Sat. until last night. The wine mellowed out a lot but now it taste like eggs!



Rack those out ASAP. Otherwise they will stick to the bottom of the carboy. The egginess will dissipate after a the final racking and filter.


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## Turock (Apr 5, 2013)

From what I've read on 71B, it does not CONVERT malic into lactic. It METABOLIZES the malic--uses it up. Conversion of malic is accomplished with bacteria, not yeast.


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## Adame (Apr 5, 2013)

Turock said:


> From what I've read on 71B, it does not CONVERT malic into lactic. It METABOLIZES the malic--uses it up. Conversion of malic is accomplished with bacteria, not yeast.



That is actually what i was hoping to accomplish.


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## Adame (Apr 5, 2013)

grapeman said:


> Just a bit of an observation here: maybe you were forced to pick early, but those grapes look like they needed about 3 weeks more ripening- way to many green and pinkish purple grapes and not enough deep blue/black. This would explain the high TA and low pH. It also leads to low alcohol. The wine will be a lot better if ripened up more to get color easier and leave less of the metallic taste inferno mentions. To me sometimes it is medicinal tasting as well. These are all reasons I prefer Leon Millot over Marechal Foch.



I was actually forced to pick these early. I left a few rows on the vine for a few weeks after these where picked for a friend. They looked and tasted awesome!


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## Turock (Apr 6, 2013)

Inferno said:


> try the maurvin B , mlf and colds stabilising , I assure you on a cold climate grape wine, it will produce the best results.
> the malic will be converted to lactic softening the wine , mlf will enhance complexity and bring out the fruit and if needed cold stabilisation will drop some tartaric further softening the wine. if this approach can work on frontinac , it can work for most high acid wines.
> 
> carbonate offers none of these benefits , and involves adding something thnot normaly a part of grape winemaking practice.
> ...


 
I disagree that carbonate is not part of winemaking. It is absolutely necessary in high acid fruit wines. And most people will find acquiring Maurvin B culture to be problematic because of the high quantities you have to buy. It's also a little expensive. Not every fruit has malic in it, or you may be choosing a different culture for other stylistic reasons. Calcium carbonate does a great job and it is unwise to discourage its use to new winemakers because you are removing a tool from them.

Many new winemakers on this forum have problems with their wines because they have not learned the art of acid adjustment. Malic metabolizing cultures can be of use--but they are not the only way thru the woods of acid management---especially when you're leaving out the idea of tartaric acid management that the Maurvin B culture won't touch. And MLF is not desireable for every wine,either.

There are some good white papers on carbonate use. Anyone can access them to get the lowdown on its proper useage.

Just to set the record straight--these cultures don't CONVERT malic to lactic. They metabolize the malic. Conversion of malic requires bactrum.


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## wineman2013 (Apr 6, 2013)

This is the grape wine section.
Fruit wine methods are not relavent here. Many of us aspire to make grape wines as good as those commercially available not quaint country wines.
Inferno specifically stated that carbonate in not a standard GRAPE winemaking practice , and he's 100 percent right .
Cold stabilizing is much more common than carbonate for grape wines to lower tartaric than carbonate.
And CS is more effective and has no flavor impact.

I've got friends in Quebec and NY who use infernos protocol as a default with very high acid grape wines commercially on varietals which are even higher in acid than the op's
With today's low or no diactyl producing MLB strains you can even do mlf on seval without muddying its nice fruit flavours .

And you are right , maurvin b , does metabolism Malic to alcohol and co2 thanks for telling us twice.
. But it's not that expensive , 25 bucks for 500 grams is a good deal , it's one of the cheaper strains . Put it in the freezer and you've got 3 years to use it. For 13 bucks each you could split a bag with someone 

If it was my wine , I'd try the maurvin, , mlf and check the acid , ph and taste if its still sharp , cold stabilize it as low as possible for the alcohol level. Then test ph , TA and taste . If it was still sharp try biolees and age for 6 to 12 months, if after all that it was still sharp tasting I'd blend in some low acid wine .

If all that didn't produce results I liked , I might consider bench trial with acidex (much better than standard carbonate or egg shells http://store.homebrewheaven.com/acidex-2-oz-p105.aspx ) on some of the wine and blend it back in but I'd be reluctant to do the whole batch.

For those interested here is the maurvin b link
http://www.gwkent.com/maurivin-b-wine-yeast-500-gram.html


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## Turock (Apr 7, 2013)

But then you are including all grapes in this protocol and there are many native grapes that are higher in acid that you wouldn't use this method on. As I said--you may chose other yeasts for other reasons and you shouldn't just buy in to the fact that one size fits all. Especially on cool weather grapes.


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## grapeman (Apr 7, 2013)

There are many ways to do almost everything in winemaking. Almost always some methods will give better results overall, but since wine is such a subjective thing, we accept that what one likes another may not. It is up to each of us to inform ourselves of all the information we can, make an educated guess which method we like and try it. You might be pleased with the results, but maybe not. I have to agree that carbonate is usually my last choice as I have had a number of bad experiences with the wine treated with it, but there is an occasional time where it might help.


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## wineman2013 (Apr 7, 2013)

Turock said:


> But then you are including all grapes in this protocol and there are many native grapes that are higher in acid that you wouldn't use this method on. As I said--you may chose other yeasts for other reasons and you shouldn't just buy in to the fact that one size fits all. Especially on cool weather grapes.



For grapes over 11g per Litre TA , and a ph under 3.2 there are no other yeasts readily available that can reduce Malic durring primary as well as maurvin b can .
This is critical because when working with really high acid cold climate grapes like natives or hybrids you need to get the ph up before mlf as most MLB can't get started at phs that low.

Before maurvin b , carbonate in the primary , 1112 yeast then a long cold stabilization followed by mlf was the default protocol in commercial wineries in the north east . This increased spoilage risk and muddied the fruit character.
But a yeast that can metabolize 56% Malic , bring out fruit flavours and colour , it's a great tool . All I'm saying is try it , a lot of North East professional winemakers swear by it for high acid grape musts . 
In using it myself , I've had great results even with Frontinac that cam in at 23 brix , 15 TA and a 2.9 ph .
Using infernos protocol the ph cam up to 3.3 and the TA down to 8.9 
Blending in 10% cab sauv and aging in a barrel for 12 months with biolees turned what I thought would be cooking wine into a favourite .

Since you have to use yeast anyway , why not try maurvin b? Even if carbonate is part of your protocol I don't see any down side. 

Maurviin b is a step change in yeast for high acid musts . A great tool .

For high acid whites its also good to bring acid down without doing mlf .
So if faced with a 9g/l reisling , a very common situation , maurvin b would be my first choice . 

One size fits all ? No , but it works well without the potential flavour down side of carbonate.

The only way you'll know for sure , is if you do two side by side batches of the same grape must following two different protocols .
One can't know what works best without trying different methods.


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## Adame (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks everyone for all the good info. I am going to do some experimenting with the wine i already made by adding carbonate. Next fall I am going to do some experimenting with yeast! I have another question. What is the difference between potassium carbonate and calcium carbonate?


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## wineman2013 (Apr 7, 2013)

I forgot to mention , one way that grape wines are very different than fruit wines is the tartaric acid itself , this acid produced by grapes and not other fruit is very different .

It can be cold stabilized , tartaric crystals form and drop out of the wine as wine diamonds you can rack away out of the wine lowering the acidity.

You can even seed the wine with cream of tartar (tartaric crystals) and cause easier drop out although this isn't normaly needed.

You just drop the wine a few degrees below freezing temp of water (32'F or zero 'C) but above the freezing temp of the wine ( above 21'f or -6'C) for 3 weeks or more and crystals will drop out , lowering the acid. Rack and redo your acid and ph tests . Most importantly taste it . Winemaking isn't a pure numbers game.


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## manvsvine (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for the maurvin b information , I hadn't heard of it before.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Apr 21, 2013)

Winery grade yeast, at the moment in the US sold only in 500gm and 1Kg packages, we use 5gm for 6 gallons. I'm looking into it.


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## manvsvine (Apr 21, 2013)

http://www.gwkent.com/maurivin-b-wine-yeast-500-gram.html

For 26 dollars I could split this with several people in our wine club.
5 dollars each for 100 grams is good.
I bet this would work well for rhubarb too.


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## Inferno (Apr 25, 2013)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> Winery grade yeast, at the moment in the US sold only in 500gm and 1Kg packages, we use 5gm for 6 gallons. I'm looking into it.



Morewine sells over 35 different winery grade yeasts in small amounts .
http://morewinemaking.com/category/wine-yeast.html


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## Pumpkinman (Apr 25, 2013)

M&M Wine Grape also sells winery grade yeasts in smaller quantities.


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## Adame (Aug 15, 2013)

Any one come up with a good way to buy MaurivinB without spending 50$. I want to try it but the 50$ minimum order seems crazy to me.


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