# New member with 6 gallons of fresh Cardonel juice, need advice.



## strut (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi all,

Like I said, I just received about 6 gallons of freshly squeezed Chardonel juice ready to go into a fermenter. This is my first try at wine making but I do have a bit of experience with a hydrometer and fermenting _stuff _

I prefer a full bodied dry red wine, but understand this grape can 
make a good dry white wine. It helps the juice only cost me a lunch tab with a friend. 


I have a generic recipe for Vinifera & hybrid grapes suggested to me by my local supply house:

SG 1.100
Acid 0.5% to 0.8%

One Gallon:
1 Camden Tab
1/2 tsp. Pectic
Yeast Lalvin D47 or EC 1118

The yeast I picked up is Red Star Premier Cuv'ee, any problems here?
So, is it safe to just multiply the Camden and Pectic for a 5 gallon batch?
I'm not entirely clear on what the Fruit Acid % means. I understand pH and have a digital meter. Can you convert this fruit acid % to a specific pH?

I have read that Chardonnay's are often oaked . I don't guess the charred oak chips I have around are going to work, huh?

Any help & suggestions you can give me will be appreciated. Thanks!


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## ColemanM (Sep 3, 2014)

Are you going for a crisp dry white or a rounded fuller buttery white? If you can get powdered French oak from a local brew shop, then adding some to the FERMENT will get you the fuller. You could also use a mix of light toast and untoasted chips, but anything larger like cubes or sticks will not work as well. Keep the ferment towards 65* or lower. Hopefully someone will add info on the pH. Good luck!!

Welcome to the forum! 

Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## strut (Sep 3, 2014)

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure exactly what characteristics I like in a wine, I'm far from a connoisseur. I can tell you that I dislike sweet wines. I occasionally buy and enjoy Cabernet, Shiraz, and Merlot. Shiraz is probably my favorite. I don't generally buy whites, but I've had some I liked. I stay away from boxed wines, but have enjoyed the inexpensive "2 buck chuck" from Trader Joe's. I save my $$$ for a good bourbon  


I did come home to a surprise and found my 6 gallons of juice was actually 6 gallons of crushed grapes. It took me a bit to figure out how to deal with it, but a few hours later and a lot of work, I got about 4 gallons of juice out of the deal. Maybe I'll try some Grappa with the remnants 

I'm sitting at a temperature adjusted SG of 1.105, with the Camden and Pectin doing it's thing overnight. I'll pitch the yeast tomorrow. 

I'll be fermenting in my basement that stays in the low to mid 60's year around.

I still haven't looked into the whole fruit acid % vs. pH thing. I've got a bit to figure that out.

My oak is heavy charred, maybe 1/8" thick by 1/4-1/2" chip.


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## seth8530 (Sep 4, 2014)

ColemanM said:


> Are you going for a crisp dry white or a rounded fuller buttery white? If you can get powdered French oak from a local brew shop, then adding some to the FERMENT will get you the fuller. You could also use a mix of light toast and untoasted chips, but anything larger like cubes or sticks will not work as well. Keep the ferment towards 65* or lower. Hopefully someone will add info on the pH. Good luck!!
> 
> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



What do you mean anything larger like cubes or sticks would not work? Are we talking sacrificial tannins for colour retention, or are you talking about for good oak character and tannin extraction?



strut said:


> Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure exactly what characteristics I like in a wine, I'm far from a connoisseur. I can tell you that I dislike sweet wines. I occasionally buy and enjoy Cabernet, Shiraz, and Merlot. Shiraz is probably my favorite. I don't generally buy whites, but I've had some I liked. I stay away from boxed wines, but have enjoyed the inexpensive "2 buck chuck" from Trader Joe's. I save my $$$ for a good bourbon
> 
> 
> I did come home to a surprise and found my 6 gallons of juice was actually 6 gallons of crushed grapes. It took me a bit to figure out how to deal with it, but a few hours later and a lot of work, I got about 4 gallons of juice out of the deal. Maybe I'll try some Grappa with the remnants
> ...



If you want to do this dry you are going to need to do this in one of two ways. A dry crisp white wine with acid balance perhaps not oaked, or you can do a more of an oak forward creamy buttery approach my employing oak and MLF.

Thier are actually methods for testing TA that involves using a PH meter to find the endpoint. I would recomend you do that if you have that method available to you.

Here, give this link a read,

http://www.grapestompers.com/articles/measure_acidity.htm

BTW, I highly recommend against using your oak chips in the wine. Oak for wine is one of those things that have developed over a number of years. Nowdays, you have three main choices, French, American and Hungarian oak all with their different toast levels. I prefer using cubes and staves for all of my oak addition since it more closely resembles what one would get from a barrel due to their thickness. Plus, since they have a lower surface area per unit volume they take longer to extract flavour and tannin and thus it is harder to over dose your wine with cubes, staves and spirals than with chips and powder.

However, oak powder can have a use in red wines ( maybe whites not sure) for helping stabilize colour by doing some magic with the yeast. ( not quite sure of the mechanism off the top of my head).


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## ColemanM (Sep 4, 2014)

Sacrificial. I am trying to give the OP a buttery Chardonnel. During the fermentation the oak and must have a reaction to each other, yet the actual oak profile is not nearly as pronounced as if the oak was placed it finished wine. The oak adds body and some flavor, thereby achieving a Chardonnay like buttery profile. Ferments are generally short times, under 6 weeks  so cubes would be less effective in giving up what they have to offer to the must. Powder gives everything up very quickly, though will mostly fall out of suspension with yeast and not make the wine "taste" over oaked. Something whites should never be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## seth8530 (Sep 4, 2014)

Ahh thanks for the clarification. I guess if the user found that they wanted some more oak in their wine after the "sacrificial" tannin addition that they would always then turn to barrels, cubes, and staves for more complex oak characteristics if they found that is what they wanted.


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## strut (Sep 4, 2014)

Thanks Seth, I read over the acidity article you provided.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind the complex Titration calculations vs. just measuring the pH of the must.

The method of adjusting the acidity is the same as if you were adjusting the pH of any other liquid. One (I) would assume their would be a simple correlation or ratio of T.A to pH? e.g. TA 0.65% = 3.5pH or to adjust TA by 0.01% adjust pH by X.


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## strut (Sep 4, 2014)

I found this.

...and this.


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## ibglowin (Sep 4, 2014)

pH and TA are not the same. See this article


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## ibglowin (Sep 4, 2014)

That would make winemaking easy wouldn't it. Unfortunately there is no direct correlation between pH and TA, only a general correlation as they measure two completely different things.



strut said:


> One (I) would assume their would be a simple correlation or ratio of T.A to pH? e.g. TA 0.65% = 3.5pH or to adjust TA by 0.01% adjust pH by X.


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## strut (Sep 4, 2014)

I read over ibglowin's link. It was very informative.

"pH represents how much acid is in a wine
regardless of how strong it tastes,
whereas a titration measures
how strong that acid tastes."

Got it.

Yet it goes on to say...

"IN REALITY...
A wine that has a proper range of pH will usually result in a wine that also has an acceptable level of tartness. The opposite usually holds true as well. A wine that has a proper level of tartness will likely have an acceptable pH reading. But, this is not a given! You can't always assume this will be the case. For some wines getting the acidity levels correct can be a challenge."

So, since I don't have a TA test available... If I shoot for a ~3.6pH using a balanced wine acid mix I "should" be ok for this batch?

I'll pick up a TA test kit next time I'm in town. I need to pick up a few smaller 3 gal carboys anyway.

Thanks everyone.

PS. Anyone ever use 1/2 or 1 gallon mason jars for racking and clearing of small batches?


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## seth8530 (Sep 4, 2014)

If you have a PH meter you do not really need a TA test kit. Do some reading, you can actually take a sample and use the PH meter to identify the end point needed to reach a certain PH. Based on the amount of base needed to do that you can get the TA. This should work much easier than using an acid testing kit.


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## ibglowin (Sep 5, 2014)

strut said:


> So, since I don't have a TA test available... If I shoot for a ~3.6pH using a balanced wine acid mix I "should" be ok for this batch?



It all depends on the grape and where it comes from. You have to know your starting materials and their associated chemistry to really know. Otherwise you are just guessing and maybe guessing wrong.

That is why you really need not only the pH meter but also a TA test kit of sorts. That said, the only thing that a TA test kit comes with is a plastic cup with a nice snap on lid, indicator (which you don't need if you are using a pH meter) a 10ml plastic syringe to accurately measure your titrant and of course the most important thing your titrant which is usually 0.1N NaOH. This is why a TA kit is one of the least expensive things you can purchase for wine making. Its pretty simple.

If you get grapes with a high pH say 3.8, 3.9 or even 4.0 I can pretty much guarantee you if you add enough acid to bring that wine down to pH of 3.6 you will have added so much acid your TA will be out of range, perhaps way out of range and now too tart.

Also you only want to use Tartaric acid and not any type of acid blend!

Hope this makes sense.


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## strut (Sep 6, 2014)

I was at 3.6 pH without adding any acid so I just went with it. Picking up TA kit just to play with and have the titrant of my pH meter.

Out of curiosity, can or should you adjust TA after the ferment? I assume that just like a mash or beer, pH and TA will change as the wort ferments?

I really appreciate all the info thus far! 

I have a few bushels of fresh picked red NY Muscatine I just de-stemmed and froze last night (by hand  ). Wine is hard! I'll be posting for help with them in a few days.


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## ibglowin (Sep 6, 2014)

You can adjust post ferment but it is always better to adjust preferment. Studies have shown that wines that were adjusted preferment actually tasted noticeably better than those that were adjusted post ferment. If you were at 3.6 preferment then you are more than likely in the ballpark TA wise. I have had California Cab that came in around 3.65 that was filed in perfect with only about 25gms of Tartaric. The wine would have been good without any addition I am sure but if you have the tools you may as well use them.


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## strut (Oct 29, 2014)

Just to follow up... here is a pic I took about a month ago of the Chardonel after its first rack. I am still surprised at how orange colored the wine is at this point. I am kind of concerned it got oxidized, but I have no idea how it could have. I did throw a few toasted oak chips in the must during the primary fermentation, but racked them off. Is this normal for a white? 

The 6 gallon is a Chambourcin I made from fresh crushed grapes. It is amazingly dense and richly colored. It is going through MLF now. I have very high hopes for this wine.

I still have a bushel of red NY Muscat grapes that I processed and froze 2 months ago. I need to pick up a few more primaries and carboys before I start this last one of the season.


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## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2014)

That is very typical (color) when you are looking at that much white wine in one large container. If you take 3oz out and pour it into a wine glass and look at it again you should feel better about the color.


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## grapeman (Oct 29, 2014)

A bit dark, but well within normal ranges. If the grapes got nice and ripe and got more skin color, it usually ends up a bit darler than clear wine even when pressed right away. I don't think you need to worry about oxidation.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 30, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> That is very typical (color) when you are looking at that much white wine in one large container. If you take 3oz out and pour it into a wine glass and look at it again you should feel better about the color.



Ironically, what Mike is referring to is called Beer's Law. Shouldn't it really be called "Wine's Law?"


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 30, 2014)

As was already said, that looks about normal. Maybe a touch dark, but that's hard to say from a picture on a computer monitor. Nothing to worry about as seen from these eyes. 

Where did you get your Chambourcin?


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## strut (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks everyone that puts my mind at ease.

I got all three of the varieties from a local vineyard in Southern Indiana. The only cost was a bottle of each when they're done!  My mother got some of each to make jam. She said the Chambourcin made the best jam she has ever had.


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## strut (Nov 1, 2014)

I racked both of my wines off the lees tonight. They are doing great as far as I can tell. Both taste good, dry, with plenty of acid and no off flavors. I was going to stabilize, but my wine lady (who owns the supply shop) said she never does, and simply leaves them alone to age until bottling. 

What should my acid levels look like at this point? I did get a test kit, but I assume the levels I'm shooting for when finished would be different then the numbers prefermintation.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 2, 2014)

strut said:


> I was going to stabilize, but my wine lady (who owns the supply shop) said she never does, and simply leaves them alone to age until bottling.



Define "stabilize"? Do you mean to say that you are planning to forgo adding K-meta, and bottle without? Why? What do you think will benefit from this?


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## strut (Nov 2, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Define "stabilize"? Do you mean to say that you are planning to forgo adding K-meta, and bottle without? Why? What do you think will benefit from this?



No, sorry, maybe that was the wrong term. I meant protecting the wine from oxidation and infection while it bulk ages in the carboy. I don't plan on bottling for at least another 10 months.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 2, 2014)

Good, I think. So you _will_ add k-meta but will skip the potassium sorbate? I think that is what you mean...


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## strut (Nov 2, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Good, I think. So you _will_ add k-meta but will skip the potassium sorbate? I think that is what you mean...



I was told to leave it alone for now. I used Camden tablets preferment as per the recipe. Do you think it needs another dose of Potassium Metabisulfite now or in the future? No plans for sorbate . I appreciate your patience with my noobness


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## sour_grapes (Nov 2, 2014)

I am hoping that someone with more experience than I have will weigh in. I don't know how much of your pre-fermentation SO2 would survive the fermentation process. Personally, I would be concerned that you will not have enough SO2 to protect your wine from oxidation and spoilage for 10 months aging.

Again, why do you think there is a benefit to forgoing the k-meta?

Of course, the best approach would be to test it (and the _p_H), but I am guessing you don't have the means to do so.


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## strut (Nov 3, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> I am hoping that someone with more experience than I have will weigh in. I don't know how much of your pre-fermentation SO2 would survive the fermentation process. Personally, I would be concerned that you will not have enough SO2 to protect your wine from oxidation and spoilage for 10 months aging.
> 
> Again, why do you think there is a benefit to forgoing the k-meta?
> 
> Of course, the best approach would be to test it (and the _p_H), but I am guessing you don't have the means to do so.



I'm not saying their is benefit of forgoing k-meta, just that none of my recipes say it is needed.

I don't have a way to measure SO2. I do however have a digital pH meter, but I'm doubtful of its accuracy at this time. I tried to calibrate it, but the only buffer solution I have currently is 0.2N Sodium Hydroxide which is pH14! This is the max my meter reads and was only registering 12 in this buffer. I calibrated using this, but I'm concerned it isn't accurate. I've ordered some pH 4.1 & 7 buffer solutions. I'll get back to you when they arrive.


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## seth8530 (Nov 3, 2014)

I would start looking at winemaking as more of a process and less of a cookbook kind of deal. I would add sulfite once fermentation is complete based on your soon to be calibrated PH probe. I am pretty sure that it is pretty safe to assume that all the free SO2 gets bound during fermentation.


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## ibglowin (Nov 4, 2014)

Sodium Hydroxide is NOT a buffer and you can not calibrate your pH meter using this. Your meter is smart enough to know what buffer solution you stuck it into (once you get some buffer solution.) You can pick some up at your local home brew store or several online sources including More Wine, Amazon etc. For winemaking you need to have both 4.01 and 7.0 buffer solutions. Some should have come with your pH meter as well.



strut said:


> I do however have a digital pH meter, but I'm doubtful of its accuracy at this time. I tried to calibrate it, but the only buffer solution I have currently is 0.2N Sodium Hydroxide which is pH14! This is the max my meter reads and was only registering 12 in this buffer. I calibrated using this, but I'm concerned it isn't accurate. I've ordered some pH 4.1 & 7 buffer solutions. I'll get back to you when they arrive.


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## strut (Nov 8, 2014)

My pH buffers came in the mail today. I tested both pH and TA:

Chardonel pH 3.7, TA ~0.7% 
Chambourcin pH 3.5, TA ~0.6%

What would you recommend for a k-meta dose per gallon?


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## seth8530 (Nov 9, 2014)

I don't have one handy, but there are charts that tell you how much to add based on ph.


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## strut (Nov 9, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> I don't have one handy, but there are charts that tell you how much to add based on ph.



Thanks Seth, I did finally dig up this:
http://www.homebeerwinecheese.com/SO2.html

After some reading, it looks like its best to lower the pH of the Chardonel to closer to 3.2. Would you suggest doing so with my TA at about 7% already?


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## seth8530 (Nov 9, 2014)

I would only lower TA until you hit the flavour you want, then adjust so2 based on the ph that gave you.


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## strut (Nov 10, 2014)

My concern was adding tartaric acid to lower the pH without adding too much acid bite as the 7% TA seems to be where I'd want it.

I've done a bunch of reading and now understand it is more important to get this wine's pH down than to worry about TA. It looks like my plan will be to dose with tartaric acid to get to pH 3.5. Then I will cold-stabilize for a few weeks, which should lower the pH another tenth or two and lower the TA a bit. This should get me close to pH 3.3 which will give me some room to use calcium carbonate to get TA back down to where I'd like it if needed later(where it is now ~7%)

I'll dose with k-meta once the pH is down a bit.

Anyone see any problems with this plan?


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## grapeman (Nov 10, 2014)

While the pH is higher than I would like it, what does it taste like now? Do you plan on sweetening it? If you want to sweeten, a lower pH may be needed to balance a sugar addition. If it tastes good now and you don't want to sweeten, cold stabilize it to lower the pH a bit and I might just leave it alone. Being too fussy with acid, pH, TA, etc can sometimes lead to problems you don't want or need.


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## strut (Nov 10, 2014)

I think it is pretty tasty as-is. I don't plan on sweetening unless it needs it in the end. I prefer dry wines.

My only concern at this point is SO2 and keeping the wines protected.


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## seth8530 (Nov 10, 2014)

I disagree, I think you should do TA to taste, and use the PH that give you to know which so2 dose you should apply... No big deal to add some extra sulfites.


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## ibglowin (Nov 10, 2014)

I see a little problem. Why in the world would you add Acid which will lower pH and raise TA only to add Carbonate down the road which would lower TA back down as well as raising the pH.

Carbonate effects both pH and TA…..

Cold stabilization will not lower pH, it will drop acid which will……. RAISE the pH.



strut said:


> My concern was adding tartaric acid to lower the pH without adding too much acid bite as the 7% TA seems to be where I'd want it.
> 
> I've done a bunch of reading and now understand it is more important to get this wine's pH down than to worry about TA. It looks like my plan will be to dose with tartaric acid to get to pH 3.5. Then I will cold-stabilize for a few weeks, which should lower the pH another tenth or two and lower the TA a bit. This should get me close to pH 3.3 which will give me some room to use calcium carbonate to get TA back down to where I'd like it if needed later(where it is now ~7%)
> 
> ...


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## strut (Nov 10, 2014)

The current pH of 3.7 is actually to high for cold-stabilization. 

"Cold Stabilization. Wines with a pH greater than 3.65 should not be cold stabilized. When wines are cold-stabilized, the goal is to precipitate potassium bitartrate crystals so that they don’t fall out of solution in the bottle. Above pH 3.65, this salt acts like an acid. So, by removing an acid from the solution, it causes your pH to increase. However, if the wine’s pH is LESS THAN 3.65, cold stabilization will help to LOWER your pH. Below this point, potassium bitartrate acts as a base, so removing from solution causes the solution to become more acidic. Pretty cool, huh?"

http://enology.umn.edu/2012/10/17/high-total-acidity-and-high-ph-how-to-handle-it/

So the premise is to use tartaric acid just to get the pH down below 3.65 and then cold crash to lower it even more. This is the most pH "bang" for my TA "buck".


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## ibglowin (Nov 10, 2014)

Good luck with that.


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## strut (Nov 10, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Good luck with that.



Are you saying this information is incorrect?


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## peaches9324 (Nov 10, 2014)

strut said:


> Thanks everyone that puts my mind at ease.
> 
> I got all three of the varieties from a local vineyard in Southern Indiana. The only cost was a bottle of each when they're done!  My mother got some of each to make jam. She said the Chambourcin made the best jam she has ever had.



What a deal!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 11, 2014)

strut said:


> The current pH of 3.7 is actually to high for cold-stabilization.
> 
> "Cold Stabilization. Wines with a pH greater than 3.65 should not be cold stabilized. When wines are cold-stabilized, the goal is to precipitate potassium bitartrate crystals so that they don’t fall out of solution in the bottle. Above pH 3.65, this salt acts like an acid. So, by removing an acid from the solution, it causes your pH to increase. However, if the wine’s pH is LESS THAN 3.65, cold stabilization will help to LOWER your pH. Below this point, potassium bitartrate acts as a base, so removing from solution causes the solution to become more acidic. Pretty cool, huh?"
> 
> ...



Here is a perhaps better explanation: http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-TartrateInstability-rev2.pdf


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## strut (Nov 11, 2014)

Interesting. This states that the "tipping point" in table wine is actually pH 3.9, where as pH 3.65 is tartaric acid's species in pure water.

With that, it looks like I should just cold crash and go from there.

Thanks for the link sour_grapes!


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## strut (Nov 12, 2014)

After reading as much as I could find on tartaric acid species pH tipping point, the general consensus was still around 3.65. Out of an abundance of caution, and since there wasn't any real harm in a 1g/l dose of tartaric at this point, I went ahead and gave it this dose. This should get my pH down to 3.6, and raise my TA to 0.8%. I will cold crash, which should both lower the pH further to ~3.5 and lower the TA back to around the 0.7% I started with. That's the plan anyway... At least I'm learning a bit

I ordered an SO2 test kit.


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