# Oak Chips vs. Oak Essence



## JoeCal1952 (Jul 21, 2015)

*Hello folks!
I actually wrote an article on how to use the FastFerment for wine making, but I have run into issues regarding the adding of the oak that comes with kits such as WineExpert. When I add the oak directly to the FastFerment, I run into problems with the chips clogging the valve at the bottom, and when I am ready to bottle, there are always some chips stuck in the bottle filler hose causing me grief. OK, This latest wine that I have not yet started is a Cabernet from WinExpert. I also ordered a mesh bag and a bottle of oak essence. I really want to use the oak that came with the kit, but there is no way to secure the mesh bag anyplace. If I just throw the bag into the wine, it will sink to the bottom and stop the lees from falling into the collection ball. If I tie a string around the mesh bag and wrap the string around the top of the vessel, when I put the lid on, there is an area there that is not completely air tight because of the string. So, after all that you have read, my question is, can I forego the oak chips completely, maybe add some tannin, then add the entire 4 oz. bottle of oak essence when it is time to bottle. I am not looking for an award winner here, just a good drinkable Cab. Oak cubes and spirals also have their own problems with the FastFerment. Sorry I bought it!
Advice???*


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## Kraffty (Jul 21, 2015)

How about a plastic bucket instead this time around. Maybe use the FastFerment as a secondary?
Mike


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## sour_grapes (Jul 21, 2015)

I cannot recall your situation precisely: You do the entire alcoholic fermentation in the fastferment, but age in a carboy, right?

I would be tempted to use powdered tannin during fermentation (like FT Rouge). As I understand it, the oak (or tannin powder) during fermentation is sacrificial, rather than for flavor, so either should suffice. I would then add any desired oak to your aging vessel.

Just my thoughts!


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 21, 2015)

Kraffty said:


> How about a plastic bucket instead this time around. Maybe use the FastFerment as a secondary?
> Mike



Sounds like a plan - I haven't started this batch yet so I have time to obtain a bucket. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## wineinmd (Jul 21, 2015)

Tape the string for the mesh bag to the inside of the FF.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 21, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I cannot recall your situation precisely: You do the entire alcoholic fermentation in the fastferment, but age in a carboy, right?
> 
> I would be tempted to use powdered tannin during fermentation (like FT Rouge). As I understand it, the oak (or tannin powder) during fermentation is sacrificial, rather than for flavor, so either should suffice. I would then add any desired oak to your aging vessel.
> 
> Just my thoughts!



Well, I had got in touch with the guy who invented this fastferment and he does the entire fermentation in the fastferment, no carboy. I figured he would know best since he created the original conical vessel, but I am having tons of issues with oak clogging the valve, and as I already stated, there is no place to tie a mesh bag without losing the ability to keep this vessel airtight. I have made all my wine by dropping the oak directly into the vessel. All wines turned out fine but there were bottling issues. A few pieces of oak would always get left behind somewhere in that valve, or stuck to the side of the vessel, and come out and clog the filler hose...


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 21, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> Tape the string for the mesh bag to the inside of the FF.



I thought of this as well and it is a good idea. Only problem I see with this is if the tape would come loose and everything fell into the wine. It gets pretty warm and moist all around the top of the fast ferment. I honestly don't see why this unit has to be air tight. You don't bulk age in it. It is designed to get the wine into the bottle quick and age in the bottle, so even oak chips probably won't be in there long enough to even help? Maybe wrapping the string around the top is the way to go - so it isn't as air tight as it should be. I really need to get a bucket or a carboy...Thanks for the help!


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## Thig (Jul 21, 2015)

Have you tried fishing line, I can't imagine it would be thick enough to cause an air leak.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 21, 2015)

Thig said:


> Have you tried fishing line, I can't imagine it would be thick enough to cause an air leak.



Well - there ya go! I probably have some 2 lb test in the garage. That is thin and wont break - It is worth a shot...Thanks a million!!! I will keep you all posted on this - It would be a shame to ruin a good Cab by using oak essence instead of chips, although I may still add some essence in at bottling. Have a great day!!!


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## wineinmd (Jul 21, 2015)

Dental floss would probably work as well.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 21, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> Dental floss would probably work as well.



Thanks again - I went with the fishing line. All looks good - By tomorrow morning the fermentation will have begun and then it is a waiting game. I think when I am all done, I am going to get a Carboy and use this for primary fermentation only, transfer to a carboy and age it, then back to the fastferment for easy bottling..I threw in some extra tannin as well.

What are your thoughts on using a yeast nutrient? I have fermaid K but never tried it and really don't know why I would need it???


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## sour_grapes (Jul 21, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> Well, I had got in touch with the guy who invented this fastferment and he does the entire fermentation in the fastferment, no carboy.



*Fermentation*, yes, but aging? I should think not. As I implied earlier, I am assuming you want to do the entire alcoholic fermentation (both primary and "secondary" fermentations) in the fastferment. However, you don't propose to age it in that vessel, do you?


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 22, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> *Fermentation*, yes, but aging? I should think not. As I implied earlier, I am assuming you want to do the entire alcoholic fermentation (both primary and "secondary" fermentations) in the fastferment. However, you don't propose to age it in that vessel, do you?




No I don't - there is way too much head space - It was suggested to me to compensate the extra head space by sanitizing plastic soda bottles and float them on top of the wine, but I feel that is utterly ridiculous. I will find a 5 gallon Glass Carboy and do it right. Thanks for your input!!!!


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## vacuumpumpman (Jul 22, 2015)

you can always make an oak extract by use of chips and vodka or ever clear.


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## JohnT (Jul 22, 2015)

I am not a kit winemaker (whole grapes), and I do not know the specific instructions your kit recommends, but my advice would be to try the following.. 

Do not oak until after you rack your wine post fermentation. This is just as soon as the wine clears and a distinct layer of lees can be seen. (the wine goes from chalky in color to the true color of the wine. 

When you do oak, use the largest pieces of oak that you can find and comfortably use. For a 5 gal batch, I suggest 2.5oz of oak beans for 2-3 months. Check your wine each month, then rack off of the oak when the wine is to your liking. 

Select a toast that fits what you are trying to achieve. A light toast yields a "Raw Wood" flavor, medium toast yields an oak wood with vanilla tones, and dark toast yields smoky, chocolate, coffee, vanilla tones.

Much of the desired oak flavors comes from a layer that only exists just below a char. If you look at your chips, there is no char and the chips are too thin to propagate this layer. I am not sure of essence and exactly what that might bring to the party, but it seems to me that this could not be as good as the real thing.

The above is just my two cents. Other's may have different opinions, and this is simply what I would do.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 22, 2015)

vacuumpumpman said:


> you can always make an oak extract by use of chips and vodka or ever clear.



I do have a 4 oz. bottle of oak extract that I am going to add before bottling if I am not happy with the oak that these chips bring...Thanks again for your help. I am not new to wine making but new to the fastferment and I am not sure I like it...The reason I got it is I have a bad back, and buckets and carboys are hard to move around and lift


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 22, 2015)

JohnT said:


> I am not a kit winemaker (whole grapes), and I do not know the specific instructions your kit recommends, but my advice would be to try the following..
> 
> Do not oak until after you rack your wine post fermentation. This is just as soon as the wine clears and a distinct layer of lees can be seen. (the wine goes from chalky in color to the true color of the wine.
> 
> ...



I value your opinion greatly! The oak that I have in there I figure won't hurt any, but I hear when using these oak chips in primary, it really isn't the same as aging with large oak as you stated. When it is time, I will get proper oak beans for this Cabernet. They suggest French Toasted oak and American Heavy Oak in the instructions. I guess these kits are really made for a quick ferment and a quick bottle to table, so you buy more frequently...LOL - When I was a kid I used to make wine with my grandfather in barrels in a hot garage. Not too much sanitizing back then. Just Zinfandel grapes, yeast, and a cheese cloth cover for the barrel. Never had issues either. Thanks for your input. When I get my carboy I will age as you say...


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## richmke (Jul 22, 2015)

During active fermentation, the airlock is optional. During that time, you can use the airlock hole in the lid to secure your line holding the mesh bag.

Otherwise, wait until you transfer to a carboy to add the oak during aging.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 22, 2015)

richmke said:


> During active fermentation, the airlock is optional. During that time, you can use the airlock hole in the lid to secure your line holding the mesh bag.
> 
> Otherwise, wait until you transfer to a carboy to add the oak during aging.



Thank you, another thing I never knew that the airlock is optional. Regarding that, There was activity in the airlock this morning and now it stopped, but you can see and hear the bubbling sound in the vessel??? Why would you think the airlock isn't bubbling? I know it is fermenting for sure. There is about 2 inches of foam on top of the must and it sounds like an alka seltzer....LOL


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## sour_grapes (Jul 22, 2015)

I'd say you must have an air leak around your airlock.


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## richmke (Jul 23, 2015)

Is there a gasket on the fastferment lid? If not, there should be for a good air tight seal. If there is one, there could be an air leak there too.

Do you have a string (fishing line, dental floss, etc) holding a bag? If so, that might be breaking the seal of the gasket.

It could be that you have a partial seal, and it was active enough to push through the airlock. Now that fermentation has subsided, it might be bleeding out and bypassing the airlock.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 24, 2015)

*Thanks to all!!!*



richmke said:


> Is there a gasket on the fastferment lid? If not, there should be for a good air tight seal. If there is one, there could be an air leak there too.
> 
> Do you have a string (fishing line, dental floss, etc) holding a bag? If so, that might be breaking the seal of the gasket.
> 
> It could be that you have a partial seal, and it was active enough to push through the airlock. Now that fermentation has subsided, it might be bleeding out and bypassing the airlock.



That's exactly what it was. I removed the fishing line and let the mesh bag just float on top of the wine and this morning the airlock looks extremely active. I didn't think a simple 2 lb test line with some plumbers tape would make a difference but it did. Actually, it wouldn't have made difference since an airlock isn't required in primary as I am told, but it made me wonder if fermentation was stuck. Tanks for the response and help!


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 24, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I'd say you must have an air leak around your airlock.



That's all it was and it is corrected. I was hanging the oak chips in a mesh bag using very thin fishing line. Problem solved. I cook the line off and let the bag float hoping it doesn't sink and block the valve. next batch of wine I make I am going back to the bucket and carboy!


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## JohnT (Jul 24, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> That's all it was and it is corrected. I was hanging the oak chips in a mesh bag using very thin fishing line. Problem solved. I cook the line off and let the bag float hoping it doesn't sink and block the valve. next batch of wine I make I am going back to the bucket and carboy!


 

I have to say from reading your posts that this fast-ferment is way more trouble than they are worth. I agree, go back to carboys....


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 24, 2015)

JohnT said:


> I have to say from reading your posts that this fast-ferment is way more trouble than they are worth. I agree, go back to carboys....



I hear they are great for beer, but even though my wines come out fine, it is a heap of trouble. Going to go and get a bucket and carboy and 2 new airlocks - I have everything else, just deciding on a good full body dry red to make...


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