# Experience with the Sur-Lie additive



## dmw_chef (Dec 9, 2020)

Hi folks - 

Does anyone have experience with the Sur-Lie additive available from morewine? I'd be most interested in finding out who actually makes it so I can get the TDS, but my research has thus far not been fruitful. 

If anyone has experience with this magic powder, I'd be interested in any thoughts on determining dosing (300-700 PPM is a pretty wide range) and thoughts on bench trial procedure. 

thanks


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## Ajmassa (Dec 9, 2020)

Reviews all seem very positive. If it was made by cellar science usually it would say it somewhere right? This one looks like it morewine had it made themselves with a private source. Interesting product tho. Ensures the lees used are clean and healthy.





Sur-Lie | MoreWine


Aging your wine on the lees (sur lie) in red and white wines is known to reduce the perception of acidity, eliminate specific harsh phenolics, increase...




morewinemaking.com





if you contact morewine directly or (moreflavor or whatever) they’d provide all the info you request.





Sur-Lie ageing | MoreWine







morewinemaking.com


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## dmw_chef (Dec 9, 2020)

Cellar science just repackages other people's stuff for the homebrew market (and tacks on a laughable markup, I've just started buying in bulk from Scott Labs directly) and I've found that there's a lot of subtlety in the TDS for some of the products they sell that doesn't make it in to their dumbed down explanation of how to use the additive on the label.

MoreWine doesn't know who the original manufacturer is, but they've offered to try to find out from CS.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 10, 2020)

dmw_chef said:


> Cellar science just repackages other people's stuff for the homebrew market (and tacks on a laughable markup, I've just started buying in bulk from Scott Labs directly) and I've found that there's a lot of subtlety in the TDS for some of the products they sell that doesn't make it in to their dumbed down explanation of how to use the additive on the label.
> 
> MoreWine doesn't know who the original manufacturer is, but they've offered to try to find out from CS.



Well yeah. Buy bulk, save $. That’s universally true. Any time I buy additives in bulk tho it goes to waste. Yeast expires. Certain nutrients get clumpy. Lab stuff like ph buffers or NaOH have shelf lives. i buy fresh once a year now & always do the free S&H.

markup is a high %- but actual $ is just a couple bucks since it’s only for small quantities. Take fermaid K for instance. 8g pack is $1.80. I buy 80g pack for $6. But would be $1.60 at the largest bulk price. And 8g would be 16¢!
‘Prices:quantities’ do all seem standard across the market though. 
I get my yeast from LodiLabs and they qdo the same. Should def keep eyes peeled for deals tho. They often runs a promotion where all their yeast is just a buck a pack. (8g packs)

as far as info provided, I don’t put too much on morewine. They’re more of a middle man. Home winemaking’s Amazon.


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## stickman (Dec 10, 2020)

I believe Cellar Science is a division of MoreWine, they purchase bulk products and use a HEPA laminar flow cabinet for the repackaging operation, it helps keep bacteria and mold spores out the repackaged yeast and additives.


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## dmw_chef (Dec 10, 2020)

I vac seal all my magic powders that I buy in bulk in 100g increments and it lasts just fine with no clumping problems. Once the pouch is opened, keep it in a sealed jar with a desiccant pack to avoid clumping.


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## Jetcontrails (Dec 11, 2020)

dmw_chef said:


> Hi folks -
> 
> Does anyone have experience with the Sur-Lie additive available from morewine? I'd be most interested in finding out who actually makes it so I can get the TDS, but my research has thus far not been fruitful.
> 
> ...


The product being sold by Morewine as Sur-Lie is what I believe to be Laffort’s Biolees product. Laffort has since rebranded the Biolees to Oenolees. Same stuff. 

I’ve used Sur Lie/Biolees/Oenolees numerous times on my experimental and commercial wines with great results. It consistently does exactly what aging on healthy lees does. Absorbs toxins/fatty acids that can prevent alcohol fermentation or ML from finishing. Rounds out edgy wines. Decreases astringency and bitterness. Improves mouthfeel, volume and adds a hint of sweetness, more so at the mid to higher recommended dosages. Works well for long term aging... just gently stir up into suspension once or twice a month.

Overall, a great product for wines that are missing that “something.”


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## dmw_chef (Dec 11, 2020)

You da real MVP. 

Could you expand on your thoughts/experiences with dosing and contact time?


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## MiBor (Dec 11, 2020)

I've used Sur-Lie from More Wine in a Chilean Chardonnay and a Sauvignon Blanc this spring. I used 700 PPM for both wines for a duration of 4 weeks, stirred once every week. After 4 weeks I racked the wines off the lees and used Duo-Fine to finish the clarification process. Than I racked again and the wines sat for an additional 2 months in glass carboys. I filtered with 1 micron pads and bottled both wines in September to make room for the fall grapes.

My impressions of this product are mixed. First, this product created a haze problem in a wine that was stable before (gets cloudy when chilled). In hindsight, I should have fined with bentonite after Sur-Lie and cold stabilized again, but I didn't expect this. Second, even after filtration through 1 micron pads, the wine retained a heavy lees smell and taste that is only starting to subside now, 7 months later. Maybe filtering with 0.45um pads would help with that, or an extended bulk aging and clarification will really help if you have the time to do it.

The good thing about this product is that it indeed provides a generous boost of mannoproteins and other compounds that are characteristic for the sur-lie style wines, so the product works for its intended purposes.
One concern I have is the freshness of the product. I purchased several 10g bags and the first one I opened smelled rancid. I threw it away and the next bag I opened smelled fine. If you decide to buy the larger quantity bags and have leftover product, definitely vacuum-seal and store it in the fridge or freezer.

In conclusion, I think that if I ever use this product again it would be at a lower dosage, followed by bentonite fining, cold stabilization and with an extended aging (at least 6 months) before bottling.


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## dmw_chef (Dec 18, 2020)

Update: Here is the actual data sheet for the product, it is not biolees.


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## Raptor99 (Dec 18, 2020)

Has anyone tried traditional Sur-Lie aging instead of using an additive? I found this: Sur Lie Aging & Bâttonage - WineMakerMag.com


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## dmw_chef (Dec 18, 2020)

I’d like to, it’s a 1-3 year experiment though. On the list, but fairly low priority.


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## TD Fermenting (Dec 19, 2020)

I’m doing 5 gallons of Sauv Blanc from frozen grapes from WGD and intend to do sur lie aging on the fine lees for a few months. Just did first rack after primary fermentation last week. My biggest challenge is that the carboy is totally full and stirring will be fun! Good to know there’s a product out there if this doesn’t work.


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## Jetcontrails (Dec 19, 2020)

dmw_chef said:


> Update: Here is the actual data sheet for the product, it is not biolees.


Nice work putting in the effort to get the TDS. Keller is a German company. Biolees, now Oenolees, is manufactured by Laffort, a French company. Both products are identical in that they’re designed to replace natural yeast lees. If you have healthy yeast lees, and you wish to age your wine sur lie, don’t bother getting involved with these products. Use them if you don’t have healthy yeast lees. 

As for dosing and duration, I treat these lees products as I would when I age on my fermentation yeast lees. I’ve let my Chardonnay rest on the lees nearly a year. About six to nine months of stirring, settle, cold stabilize, and rack clear wine off the tartrate crust that forms on top of the lees, then bottle. The determining factor for me for lees contact is desired wine impact and ongoing health of the lees. Any reductive or off aromas and it’s time to rack.

I want to address one point here, and that is lees contact. Most of the info available to home winemakers dictates that racking off the gross lees is critical and any lees aging should be done on the fine lees only. This “catch all” advice works well for the less experienced, but if you have a healthy fermentation, useful lees may be being dumped down the drain.

For example, my 2019 Napa Cab Sauv ferment was very healthy and the wine is still in barrels on the lees. As for my press protocol, wine goes from press to press pan, where the very heavy lees and organic grape matter settle on the bottom of pan, then straight to barrel. This press to barrel process takes about one hour. In this case, I stirred the lees until desired impact, then settled. ML is done and I monitor every six to eight weeks. My protocol does not mandate anything, so in the case of my ‘19 Cab, I have it still resting on the original lees and it has never been racked. Tastes, great, excellent mid-palate volume, low VA, and only barrel ox. The point being, when it comes to these lees products, many are designed to mimic or replace what you may already have access to.

I don’t get on this site often, but do enjoy reading through some of the posts. I hope some of this info helps.


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## dmw_chef (Dec 19, 2020)

Jetcontrails said:


> If you have healthy yeast lees, and you wish to age your wine sur lie, don’t bother getting involved with these products. Use them if you don’t have healthy yeast lees.



One fine point that I might put here is that this addictive, at least according to the TDS, results in much faster impact than using your own lees. 



Jetcontrails said:


> I want to address one point here, and that is lees contact. Most of the info available to home winemakers dictates that racking off the gross lees is critical and any lees aging should be done on the fine lees only. This “catch all” advice works well for the less experienced, but if you have a healthy fermentation, useful lees may be being dumped down the drain.



I tend to fully agree that the home winemaking community is way more rack happy than I personally consider prudent or necessary. The consequences of lees contact for a home winemaker with a 5 or 10 gallon batch are wildly different from a commercial winemaker making a 500 or 2000 gallon batch.


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## Booty Juice (Dec 20, 2020)

dmw_chef said:


> I tend to fully agree that the home winemaking community is way more rack happy than I personally consider prudent or necessary. The consequences of lees contact for a home winemaker with a 5 or 10 gallon batch are wildly different from a commercial winemaker making a 500 or 2000 gallon batch.



This.


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## MiBor (Dec 21, 2020)

Jetcontrails said:


> If you have healthy yeast lees, and you wish to age your wine sur lie, don’t bother getting involved with these products. Use them if you don’t have healthy yeast lees.


I agree with the above statement. However, for those of us who are not growers and don't have ready access to quality fresh grapes, we have to use these products to mimic a healthy sur-lie aging. For example, all the wine grapes I've been able to buy here in Michigan in the past few years for a decent $/# were overripe, kept in a refrigerated truck for a long time and had lots of raisins. By the time I got the grapes and started processing them, each cluster had berries that were starting to rot. When making wine with grapes like that, the state of the fruit dictates a lot of the following steps (that wouldn't be needed with better, fresher grapes), and also calls for caution with aging on the original lees. 

I also don't really trust the lees left after AF of juice buckets, especially Bello Chilean. All buckets I purchased had a heavy smell of DAP. I suspect that the vendor dumps a lot of DAP in the buckets in an effort to ensure an easy and complete fermentation of their juice, but because they use so much product, some of it is not processed and it is left in the wine and in the dead lees. The lees smell more like ammonia than healthy lees and I wouldn't want to age my wine on something like that. This is the state of things that convinced me to try the Sur-Lie product. I don't expect the quality of my grapes and juice supply to improve anytime soon, so I'll keep experimenting with Sur-Lie and fine tune the process, to get the best out of what's available to me. 

Winemakers who don't have to deal with these problems should heed the advice and use their healthy lees for aging, if that fits their stylistic needs.


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