# going to college for winemaking?



## Spacedonut (Feb 15, 2011)

I was wondering if anyone knows anything about some of the enology programs in the U.S. I am looking into Cornell and so far it sounds like a great program I am hoping that someone has personal experience with anything of the sort?


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## GerardVineyard (Feb 15, 2011)

If you are from Grand Rapids MI, check into Northwestern MI College in Traverse City. They currently have a Viticulture program and are looking into an Enology program as well. I have heard these programs are picking the program that was at MSU before they stopped the program a few years ago.

Another option is a program called VESTA - Viticulture and Enology Science and Technology Alliance, which is an online program. In works with 8 different colleges including MSU and offers both certificate and Associate of Applied Science programs. Visist there website at www.vesta-usa.org I heard of this program while attending a vineyard seminar hosted by MSU in TC last month.

NorthCentral Michigan College in Petoskey is also working on putting together an associates program in these two areas in the near future. I just completed 2 workshops there this past year and earned 36 CEU's thru their Institute for Business and Industry. The instructor is a local vineyard / winery owner. It was a great program !!


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## AlFulchino (Feb 15, 2011)

i would like to ask a question being a bit of an iconoclast....what is it about wine making and or viticulture that you could not teach yourself?


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## cpfan (Feb 15, 2011)

Not applicable to Spacedonut but Niagara College in Niagara-on-the-Lake (St Catharines) Ontario has a Teaching Winery and just started a Brewery this past fall. They also have a vineyard as part of the school grounds. Wonder if they grow their own hops.

Steve


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## Spacedonut (Feb 15, 2011)

There is nothing i couldn't teach myself persay. but I believehighly in higher education and if i can turn something i may enjoy into a college experience and a carrer then why not?


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## GerardVineyard (Feb 15, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> i would like to ask a question being a bit of an iconoclast....what is it about wine making and or viticulture that you could not teach yourself?




Same as, you can teach yourself to cook. But, over the years my culinary degree has gotten me some nice jobs that required me to have an education.


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## AlFulchino (Feb 15, 2011)

i am not against it...afterall i sent one youngin' to college to be an engineer...and i realize that certain times like for medicine it has its place....and i would even agree that the school environment fosters communication that might lead to a tid bit here and there of information that would be extremely helpful

i would even venture that a chemist or physicist would have a nice time playing w experieiments that they might not have easy access to

but none of that compares to loss of intuition primarily brought about by the average school environment....

additionally most careers can be learned on one's own and via visiting people already in the field....even apprenticing if you will

but to me the biggest loss for the average person is loss of individuality...a certain blandness and average-ness is fostered for the purposes of passing tests

once again..i am not against schooling 100%....but i believe it has less place and importance that is typically accorded to it

i can point to many things and businesses that buttress my point but that would be overkill...i just wanted to make a simple point...and we wont even talk about all the money thrown into education these days for less than superior results.

i think this...that if *you* in particular *want* to be a winemaker or viticulturist....then *you*......will

a school can expose you to things for *sure*...but i think you can find them *anyway* if you have natural curiousity


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## AlFulchino (Feb 15, 2011)

I hear you Gerard....and i have no argument with your point....so many businesses want to see that people have jumped thru certain hoops...it gives a reasonable assumption that a person has put time into learning something and should be competent to s degree as to perform duties that the business would require.


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## Spacedonut (Feb 15, 2011)

I would love to be able to apprentice somewhere that would be an amazing experience. But to my knowledge if I plan on being employable most people will want to look at some peice of paper saying I can do what is they want me to. I personally think our education system is a "bit" mind numbing but ive dealt with that for 16 out of the 20 years of my life and I am still "unique".
But I also don't know much about the wine industry as of yet so I may be incredibly wrong about the need of a degree to be employable. 
That is partly why I asked my first question. So I could start to figure out what I would need to do to become an apprentice or an employee at a winery/vineyard.


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## AlFulchino (Feb 15, 2011)

well its a good question and a good topic, i am glad you raised it...you have to find your own path in life and i am not here to shake your tree...i will share something with you that i told my engineer son who went to a fine school and works for a defense contractor....and make note of the word 'average' .....i told him....'the *average* engineer has his or her job because of what some visonary put in from of him or her'


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## midwestwine (Feb 15, 2011)

Des Moines community college in Iowa has a ecology program that's is online and you only have to do 2day of class time at the school. Every week their is a video posted online that is from the class the day before. Paul Gospodarczyk is the teacher. I have taken vin 150 and that was a great class. Here is a link for the program.

https://go.dmacc.edu/programs/viticulture/Pages/welcome.aspx


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## grapeman (Feb 15, 2011)

Cornell has a very good Enology and Viticulture program. It not only teaches you all the basics, but they have access to labs, vineyards and wineries all in one location. They also do research on cooperating farms in the vineyards and wineries. They also can aid in placing you in hands on work all around the world. A couple young men from my area are in foreign countries gaining valuable experience in Australia and France. Taken as a whole, it can certainly aid you in gaining some experience and respect in the workplace later.

I have had a lifetime of experience in agriculture and had an Associates degree in Agronomy Plant Science. When I began working with grapes and doing on farm research nobody listened because I don't have a Masters or Doctorate degree. I have had a great opportunity networking with Cornell researchers and have gained a bit of respect from them, but others still think I am just some dumb yokel. That would change if I had the degree. Would I know any more (maybe a bit because you do learn something while in school) than I do now- not a lot, but I would be listened to more intently. There is a joke among a few friends saying they need to chip in and buy me an online phd degree for a few hundred bucks. That piece of paper would get me more respect. I am happy with what I know (although intend on learning until I die) and just hope to help others learn.

Good luck whatever you choose.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 15, 2011)

Well as far as the Enology program goes I have a friend that is taking one on line at Penn State and does a few weekends in the class room a year. Knowing what he already knows as a successful winery owner he is still amazed at what he's learning from different classes.

I agree with everything Al said about wanting to do it and learning it hands on I did that and was quiet successful up until the recession and my job was cut. I have applied to many jobs that I am well qualified for and would be a better candidate then the one they pick but it all comes back to "you didn't meet minimal requirements of at least a BS degree". Damn ask anyone on this forum and they'll tell you I got BS.LOL The other little line they give you is "you're over qualified" which means you're over 50 and too f*ing old!

Looking back I can say I regret not serving my country and for the first time in my life not having a degree.


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## Spacedonut (Feb 15, 2011)

So far Cornell is definantly looking like it has the most impresive program of the ones i have looked at. I was in the "AP" program at my high school and have always enjoyed lab science stuff but I definantly love getting my hands dirty and it looks like Cornell mixes the two of those really well. I think I am going to start looking for oppurtunities for work at a winery somewhere here in michigan to start out with.... Better than working at taco bell.... 
and it would be nice application fodder when the time comes.


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## robie (Feb 15, 2011)

Out in California, don't UC Davis and maybe Stanford have some kind of enology degree programs?


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## Spacedonut (Feb 15, 2011)

davis and fresno I know do. as far as stanford goes..... google time


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## JasonH (Feb 15, 2011)

Since you are young, you may want to take a major in chemistry or biology. If you get good grades and make grad. school, you can do your thesis on something winemaking related. That program at cornell sounds great but make sure it provides some kind of degree or opportunity to fall back on. I wish I would thought of all this myself before college!


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## AlFulchino (Feb 15, 2011)

from Rich:" When I began working with grapes and doing on farm research nobody listened because I don't have a Masters or Doctorate degree. "

so my question is would i want to prefer to learn from people who do not listen to someone like you Rich who knows a lot? I will answer that....*no!* afterall dont these people teaching you basically know whats from a book or on the job field training that anyone can find their way into ...and that book is 99% of the time a book that anyone can already read for the most part. 

and also you said "I am happy with what I know (although intend on learning until I die) and just hope to help others learn."

exactly! and i would add...if you take two people ...one who got the wine education at age 25 and another who learned things on their own....and they both continued in the field until age 65 for example.....could anyone here answer definitively that one OR the other was guaranteed to have more knoweldge and or success than the other during the life they each led?

i would venture that if a young man, in fact if *i were a young man* today were to put aside what the 2 or four yr school would cost in tutelage and room and board and spend the same time being a good nuisance around as many vineyards as he could....reading as much as he could during the same time, could, in the end....take what was to be his school money and get some land and start his own place and be a ahead in the game as the one who felt school was the only way....

and remember, as we all know some people decide on a career change later in their life...so as an added benefit.....the one who saved his or her money and bought the land, had an asset that the schooler did not


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## Runningwolf (Feb 15, 2011)

_i would venture that if a young man, in fact if *i were a young man* today were to put aside what the 2 or four yr school would cost in tutelage and room and board and spend the same time being a good nuisance around as many vineyards as he could....reading as much as he could during the same time, could, in the end....take what was to be his school money and get some land and start his own place and be a ahead in the game as the one who felt school was the only way...._

Al this is so true. But one thing we are leaving out is that all the money in the world can not buy you a personality and usually not make you a leader either. Without these two things you will never make it on your own in the public. When I would hire management people I always looked for leadership skills first. We could teach you the job but not how to be a leader (of course we could fine tune and teach additional skills).


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## jet (Feb 15, 2011)

In my limited experience, what your degree is in, is not as important as having one and who issued it.


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## Randoneur (Feb 15, 2011)

I would consider UC Davis and Cornell at the top, but do look at Virginia Tech. also. They are right up there too. If you go to the right school you will be able to get out in the field and get hands on experience that will put you ahead of most of the others.


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## grapeman (Feb 15, 2011)

Here is a link to part of the Cornell program
http://grapesandwine.cals.cornell.edu/


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## GerardVineyard (Feb 15, 2011)

robie said:


> Out in California, don't UC Davis and maybe Stanford have some kind of enology degree programs?




UC Davis does. 

The online VESTA program I stated earlier, does have an internship portion to the program. You would intern at a winery or vineyard, depending on the program


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## GerardVineyard (Feb 15, 2011)

Spacedonut said:


> I think I am going to start looking for oppurtunities for work at a winery somewhere here in michigan to start out with.... Better than working at taco bell....
> and it would be nice application fodder when the time comes.



With Spring approaching, volunteer at a local vineyard to help with Spring pruning. This may help get your foot in the door when they do need to hire someone.


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## ibglowin (Feb 15, 2011)

WSU in Washington State also has an excellent program. You could get your foot in the door of any mom and pop winery operation if you have the real world experience but a large corporate operation like many wineries in CA or WA State wouldn't take a second look at you without at least a certificate. That is just the way of the world.


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## Racer (Feb 15, 2011)

VESTA can be a good fit for someone like me. I'm still trying to make a living and pay all the bills(at the young age of 51). Each class whether viticulture or enology requires x hours of practical application to get credit for the class besides the classroom time you need to attend online.My last viticulture class needed 32 hours of practical application, my beginning wine making class this winter needed only 8 hours at a winery.
If your just starting out(way younger then me) you'd be better off going to one of the bigger named universities.Name dropping(big school degree) still gets more attention then years of experience in the field gets you.


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## AlFulchino (Feb 15, 2011)

"Name dropping(big school degree) still gets more attention then years of experience in the field gets you."

good wine and good grapes? what does that get you?


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## ibglowin (Feb 16, 2011)

Al,

Not all of us are as blessed as you to have winemaking in our blood and vineyard soil under our finger nails. For the rest of us its make a batch of wine from either fresh grapes, a frozen pail or a kit, then wait 2 years to see how the "experiment" turned out. Rinse, Repeat......... 

It works but takes 10-20 years to become an expert (of sorts) in the field. 

Thus the rise of certificates and even degrees in Viniculture and Enology. Now they can't teach you everything you need to know to be able to make a great wine right out of the gates but its a starting point that hopefully cuts down on the time (trial and error and mistakes) that would arise otherwise.

There is absolutely no substitute for experience. Even if you have a piece of paper that says you can pass a test, 90% of the graduates of these programs have to intern (work for free) for a fair length of time before they get a paying gig. The 10% that get a paying job off the bat have REALLY good inside connections. They usually start out by steam cleaning and topping off barrels. Not all that glamourous. Alot of these kids in WA State start off working for a winery for a few years, get some "real world" experience under their belts then quit and try and make a go of it for themselves. Most usually don't get rich. Many do succeed and quite a few fail, even with that piece of paper. 

You still have to have a good business plan, good grapes, a little bit of talent and a lot of luck!


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## AlFulchino (Feb 16, 2011)

Mike, i hear you and you are one person that i respect VERY much and as i stated earlier ( more than once) i do not discount college at all, it has its place, i even went for a while ( only to learn that a person doesnt need it)...but i will stand up and say that 100% of our population has less faith in themselves than they should and that is their hindrance

you mentioned having wine making and land ....well before that when i was nineteen i started a landscape business and a great aunt asked me about it and said i couldnt do that because i had no background in it..i started one and built it up...five yrs later i sold that business...it still runs today 32 yrs after i started it.....at age 24 i bought a gas station ( convenience store type) ran into the same great aunt...who..guess what? said the same thing....ran several of them...twenty something yrs later sold that...also had another business that i ran for a decade that i knew nothing about...made some money lost some money...learned a lot along the way...bought the land along the way..it was not given to me...and 80% of my grapes are ones that i had never made wine from until last yr......80% ( i planted them in 07) no one taught me....it is about reading, talking with people, guaging where they are coming from, taking a chance and its instinct...instinct which you have as well..everyone does..and we sold 100% of the wine made w those previously unknown to me grapes in the first yr....how did that happen? not as inferred Mike.....why does it always have to be that people who have done well have to have it attributedm or inferred to some gift of money, heritage or land like a silver spoon? 

what i am in effect saying is not that i am better than anyone i just have a faith that others choose to ignore even though it is free for the taking) ....if anyone takes that( silver spoon syndrome) as the meaning it is because the person only looked at the current surface.....i am saying that if any one of you reading had true faith in yourself then you could do more than i could or at least as much...and who is stopping you?

most people doubt themselves to a degree that acts as a self applied brake...
_____
editting this in...you said it takes 10-20 yrs to become an expert in the field regarding soils....who says??????who says you have to be an expert? or that it need take 10-20 yrs? this implies the very heritage that you decried me as having....

great subject matter and conversation Mike ( i mean that )


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## Spacedonut (Feb 16, 2011)

Im loving this discussion that has started.
Your probably right about having everything i need to start on the path to working at and owning a winery and the only thing stopping me is a lack of self confidence and I feel that school is a way to build up that confidence. 
but I also have a strong drive to succeed at everything i do and can't stand being told it wont work. Hell im the only reason my mom's vacum still works after 10 years of abuse. and she just wanted to throw it away. 
Please keep up this great discusion I would love to hear about this from every angle possible


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## roblloyd (Feb 16, 2011)

I teach Microsoft and Cisco certification classes (besides consulting) and while they aren't needed if you have experience, sometimes it's that piece of paper that gets you in the door and/or is required on the job application.

I've met some microsoft certified people that can't fix anything but they can pass a test.

I say get the certificate and get experience.


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## cpfan (Feb 16, 2011)

roblloyd said:


> I teach Microsoft and Cisco certification classes (besides consulting) and while they aren't needed if you have experience, sometimes it's that piece of paper that gets you in the door and/or is required on the job application.
> 
> I've met some microsoft certified people that can't fix anything but they can pass a test.
> 
> I say get the certificate and get experience.


Used to work for a place that wouldn't give a couple of computer techs without certificates the job "officially" or the pay raise but they were doing the job. When both left in a short time frame, they were in trouble because the hired (at more money) replacements with the certificates were no good.

Steve


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## AlFulchino (Feb 17, 2011)

Steve, your post illustrates a key point that i was making...organizations dependent on a culture of paper certificates often lose out on ingenuity, independence and individual drive because of a dependency on the safety net that a document provides.....afterall they think... the document covers their butt in the blame game when that is a factor.

Sometimes hey cannot see the best tree from which to cut wood because they are told it must be wrapped in a paper certificate


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## joea132 (Feb 17, 2011)

I tend to agree that you don't need a degree to be successful. I did 3 semesters in college, incurred $30,000 in debt, and ended up dropping out and making more than my friends who finished the program with $120,000 in debt.

That being said, teaching yourself can sometimes be very difficult. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on and one thing I've noticed about wine making is that everybody has a different method for everything. 

Long, cold fermentations or short, hot fermentations? 
Natural or lab yeasts?
Sulfites or au natural?

What I've learned from studying is the basic process, the different options I have and how they will affect the outcome. I plan on experimenting and making educated guesses to figure out what suits my tastes best. *After all, isn't that the most fun part of winemaking anyways? * (My thoughts now are to apply scientific principles to a traditional proccess)

I am also looking into starting a winery as a retirement option, so I'm not just an alcoholic with a creative flair! (although that's still up for debate!) I am looking into college courses as a way to bolster my knowledge but the best information I've gotten so far has been from books and talking to the fine people that make up these forums.


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## AlFulchino (Feb 17, 2011)

Joe i love your post...allow me to make some observations and comments:
_______
"I tend to agree that you don't need a degree to be successful. I did 3 semesters in college, incurred $30,000 in debt, and ended up dropping out and making more than my friends who finished the program with $120,000 in debt."

When i was 18 back in 77 i was accepted to a school that would have left me and my dad 45 k in debt.....i told him forget it..it made no sense...debt shackles you and you have to conform to what is taught so that you are not wasting money...

"That being said, teaching yourself can sometimes be very difficult. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on and one thing I've noticed about wine making is that everybody has a different method for everything.

Long, cold fermentations or short, hot fermentations?
Natural or lab yeasts?
Sulfites or au natural?"

Excellent points to raise....teaching yourself can be difficult...so isnt repaying 120 k as you mentioned...but teaching yourself is NOT impossible...lets look at your examples....long, cold fermentations or short? hot fermentations......did you go to school to ask these questions? NO! they arose out of natural evolution and curiousity based upon real life wondering...so teach yourself by two ways...search the internet and ask questions and experiment yourself and find what works for you.....case closed, mystery solved...120 k saved

"What I've learned from studying is the basic process, the different options I have and how they will affect the outcome. I plan on experimenting and making educated guesses to figure out what suits my tastes best. After all, isn't that the most fun part of winemaking anyways? (My thoughts now are to apply scientific principles to a traditional proccess)"

whether you learned basic process from studying or not you would have discovered the basic process on your own with or without college....natural curiousity, discovery and the like were not invented in school...they come from inside....in the end you say inst that the most fun anyway...exactly..and for the most part school strips the human spirit of this....just look at the school system a a whole...more money is thrown at it....more hours and more hours.....and for what?



"I am also looking into starting a winery as a retirement option, so I'm not just an alcoholic with a creative flair! (although that's still up for debate!) I am looking into college courses as a way to bolster my knowledge but the best information I've gotten so far has been from books and talking to the fine people that make up these forums."

look at the dichotomy in your own last paragraph.....you start out by towing the college line and in the end you admit the best stuff you have gotten is on your own...i rest my case


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## joea132 (Feb 17, 2011)

I think the point in a nutshell is that college is a very expensive research tool that is completely optional given a modest amount of motivation.

Very good points Al.


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## Midwest Vintner (Feb 17, 2011)

i'm going to have to agree with AL here. winemaking is just as much an art form as it is a technical job. you can learn the technical stuff in reading a few books or researching the net. you want a job at a vineyard/winery, know your stuff and make a few successful batches. show up with a few bottles and some knowledge.  bet any degree won't beat a great batch of wine!  lol

a degree in the business world, and/or any kind of math/science kind of profession will open doors. when it comes to artistic abilities and such, it's not near as helpful. I have a multimedia degree and people want to see what you can DO, not just what you know. that said, i'm not the best. lol. i might have been better off teaching myself some of it (minus some of the animation, but who can get a job in that with an associates and not any experience?). some things can be self taught and experience in any form is usually better than a degree. it all depends on your motivation. we've had winery jobs open around my area. didn't need any experience. that said, i bet i would've been fired quick with a winery opening soon. lol! so i work machining until i can afford to quit.


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## Rootedmotion (Feb 17, 2011)

I havent really had time to read all the posts but since i just graduated college and have job in the wine field i guess i will throw in my two cents. 

For me I went to college to play college soccer. i started out as a business major in hopes to own my own business someday, maybe something along the lines of sports since i have played almost every sport under the sun at some point in time. Well I quickly found a passion for photography and started shooting all the college sporting events and started getting work published in newspapers. If i had not gone to school for soccer I would have joined the military and who knows where i would be today. Because of college i found my passions, photography and wine. 

Yes, i have 80k worth of studen loan debt but I grew up as a person and my college expieriences have def contributed to where and who I am today. Not that the military wouldnt have, i just dont think that was the life fore me. (Nothing against the military, my father went to the Navel acadamy and spent 30 years in the Navy and i couldnt be more thankful for people who devote their life to protecting our freedom!) 

I worked at the winery where i am at now as a summer job spraying grapes, pruning, hanging wire and other things that needed to be done in the vineyard. They offered me a full time job to quit school and stay with them as the head of the vineyard maintenance at 21 years old. Well i went back to school and 2 years later graduated with a degree in photojournalism and my own photography business. Spent 6 months applying to newspapers all across the country and decided i wanted out of the city i was living and wanted to move back home. Contacted the winery here and asked the winemaker if he had an opening for me. 

I started here in may and was named the assistant winemaker in June at age 23. I did not know much about the winemaking process when i started but because i had to dive right in I feel my knowledge is well on its way to someday owning my own winery. 

just my two cents


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## AlFulchino (Feb 17, 2011)

my son went to school for baseball..so i know where you are coming from...school didn't give you your passion for photography...that was already in you waiting to come out.....whatever you are around exposed you to something.....you even evidence against the argument for college because college gave you 80 k in debt and you found yourself in wine making which has developed into a career via on the job exposure

if college gave you your interest in photography and wine then i would think we should be seeing 300 million passionate beer makers 

your last paragraph says it all....i would only add one thing...you are motivated from the inside....

to me for the most part colleges are a collection point for a society that has wasted the energies and passions..natural passions of the vast majority of 13-18 year-olds



colleges and universities for the most part are vast beauracracies ( sp?) to house an industry of self perpetuating educators.....

universites and colleges are good for collection points like a library.....but not any more......the real university and college collection point in this point is history is the internet........anyone can learn anything on their own now and can do so without the trappings of culture and the slavery of debt


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## Rootedmotion (Feb 17, 2011)

I am in no way disagreeing with the points you have made about universities and society today making it an importance to have a little piece of paper. And yes there was an artist in me that was dieing to come out and college just happened to let it out. 

But the expieriences that I had in college have helped to make me who I am today and I feel that I would have never learned to use that motivation inside me if i had not been challenged and tested the way college courses do. The college system in america is very flawed and does not educate someone like it probably was designed to do, but it is the lifestyle and the expieriences of trying to cram 3 10 page papers into a week while playing a college sport or some other activity that really educates someone into using the potentional modivation they have inside them.


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## Manimal (Feb 20, 2011)

In theory, I agree that you can learn all you need to be a great winemaker through self-study. However, there are certain opportunities that being in college presents that would be difficult to achieve on your own. For example, being surrounded by professionals in your field of study along with other enthusiastic students who are passionate about winemaking; access to academic journals/texts which can be hard to find outside of an academic environment; co-op placements that allow you to get real-life work experience in the field; labs and facilities with professional equipment for wine testing and analysis... etc., etc. 

We could argue the merits of formal education vs. self-study forever, however from a practical standpoint, if you plan on pursuing a career in winemaking, having a diploma/degree is going to go a long way to helping you get a job, and the contacts you make during the college experience can help you a lot as well.


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## AlFulchino (Feb 20, 2011)

Manimal....i can sum up my reply in a few words and anymore would just be repeating myself...and i take the lead from your first sentence....

in theory, you are correct...and dont forget to add the price tag to that theory


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## Manimal (Feb 20, 2011)

I suppose that if I were in the U.S. I might have more sympathy with your disdain for formal education since tuition costs are through the roof there. In Canada, academic institutions are subsidized through the government, so while our taxes are higher and the costs of everyday life are accordingly higher, deciding to go to college is not something that cannot pay for itself after a couple of years of employment in your chosen field. I've completed two university degrees and am currently working on a college diploma in winemaking/viticulture and I am doing o.k. financially without coming from a wealthy family, etc. 

Also, remember that there are other costs than the financial ones... the cost of spending unnecessary years struggling to gain respect as a wine professional (working menial jobs in other fields in the meantime ) and the cost of fighting to get your foot in the door/move up in the wine industry because you don't have that piece of paper. Take a look at the job listings on winejobs.com or any other similar website.... what do you think the first qualification is for pretty well any winemaker or assistant winemaker position?? 

And let's be honest, right or wrong, no one looking at your resume is going to care how many of carboys of wine you've got going in your basement if you don't have that piece of paper.


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## AlFulchino (Feb 20, 2011)

your question

"what do you think the first qualification is for pretty well any winemaker or assistant winemaker position??"

i take it that your answer is the diploma

i thought the answer would be and should be your wine and your abilities...
i supposes this could go on and on...i think its time the topic goes to bed...there are no winners nor losers...its all a matter of belief i guess


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## grapeman (Mar 6, 2011)

Bringing this topic back up as I have another option for you that would probably be less expensive, but I don't know about eligibility requirements.

I spoke quite a bit the last couple days with the young gentleman in charge of this program in Geneva at the Finger Lakes Community College. They have their own vineyard and a brand new winery and lab. You get hands on experience and then may be placed in an internship at a participating winery. It is a two year program and sound like it would be a great place to get your feet wet, and maybe a bit purple. If you liked the area you probably could move on to Cornell and finish with that program.

http://www.flcc.edu/academics/viticulture/index.cfm


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## mmadmikes1 (Mar 7, 2011)

Damn I sat and read this whole post. I have had time to talk to people at many wineries because we are loaded hear in Washington. The amount of people I have talked to that have been to college is real low in this industry here. Another point, my brother works at IBM and is the only person there he knows who does not have a degree and he is the senior program for security. Even big companies will look past degrees for right person. Remember Bill Gates quit college to start Microsoft. I don't belittle higher education but it does seem to bottle everyone into thinking same way


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## AlFulchino (Mar 7, 2011)

Mr Mike from Washington state.....i am with you! Not against higher ed..it has its place....just not NEARLY to the degree it is afforded under the current beauracracy.....and cultural mindset...but fear not ....its all collapsing under its own inefficiencies


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 7, 2011)

i can understand going to school for engineering or a something that is complicated, but wine isn't really that complicated. growing vines isn't that hard of concept to get either. it's something you can learn on your own. if you have carboys AND bring IN some good wine, do you think they'll look at that resume? i'd think so. lastly, everyone has their own wine style and i'd be willing to bet that a winemaker is looking for someone willing to conform to their style rather than be one to tell them how to do it. i'd be apt to equivalate winemaking to art than a mathematical science. i mean, how much school do you need to read a hydrometer, do pH and/or titration test, S02 test test and come up with some recipes (or even follow one)?

i am lucky though, my dad does have a horticulture, culinary and restaurant managment degree. that said, we aren't growing our product, but we are going to have a very nicely landscaped winery.

also, i've seen 2 local wineries hire people without any experience needed, per ad.


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## grapeman (Mar 7, 2011)

The reason I brought up the community college degree is that it would be MUCH cheaper and affordable than a full university program. Because they are so hands on you get experience rather than quite so much theory. The degree will have less merit to it by those that want it, but it will do the average guy just fine. It establishes the basics that don't have the intuition of somebody like Al who is blessed with it.


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## ibglowin (Mar 7, 2011)

And you think this is a good thing? Just curious.

As we fall further and further behind other countries in math and science and more and more jobs are lost overseas there will be fewer and fewer people left that have the discretionary income available to purchase things like a $30 bottle of "Cenare"........ 

We desperately need our school system to succeed, not "collapse under it's own inefficiencies".



AlFulchino said:


> ...but fear not ....its all collapsing under its own inefficiencies


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## AlFulchino (Mar 7, 2011)

looks a bit like a dig but best to look past it

"It establishes the basics that don't have the intuition of somebody like _____ who is blessed with it."
__________________
Rich, you are not wrong...but the statement about it establishing the basics is also not undyingly and forever correct either.....also, i will tell you Rich what i tell everyone....everyone has intuition (you Rich are blessed w it)...it is usually chased out of the human spirit that everyone posess's by pressures from society...truth be told Rich and i mean this from the bottom of my heart...i am dumber than most...i have a short attention span...probably a bit lazier than i should be too ...but when i was young i saw that most authorities only knew and did what other people told them to do and that they themselves were products of conditioning and easily fell into a layer of safety and comfort...so i figured i could find my way simply using common sense and be no worse for the wear

please remember that i am not against higher ed...take Mike for example.....higher educational resources can help him achieve what a landscaper doesn't need necessarily...now take that another step....has Mike or someone he works with ever felt restricted in their creativity? i am sure the answer has to be yes...he also achieves more in some instances because he is affiliated with a group...it bends both ways sometimes...the funny thing to is that at the end of the day...he plays happily with wine...where he can shine in his own way...that is cool...just a shame that he cant live that way all the time at work as well....not that he doesnt enjoy his work, i am sure he does...any way..points made



***********

Hi Mike...you asked and commented:
"And you think this is a good thing? Just curious.

As we fall further and further behind other countries in math and science and more and more jobs are lost overseas there will be fewer and fewer people left that have the discretionary income available to purchase things like a $30 bottle of "Cenare"........

We desperately need our school system to succeed, not "collapse under it's own inefficiencies".
*****
me:
it is a good thing for something to fail when it is largely ruining young people...incredible amounts of money have been thrown at it, the system, in the name of making it better...you and i are about the same age...you and i have witnessed the same arguments since we have been in our teens Mike about how to make the system better..always in the name of our children...in the name of the future...you and i heard the same debates in the 80's...in the 90's and this last eleven yrs.....so please someone...anyone tell me why we have fallen further behind other countries? the logic from the people who run and support and cry for our educational system have been given all they want and more...and still it is never enough ...a rising tide lifts all ships so why didn't their answers work? why is it that only certain people succeed? why? remember we are talking about the entire system....if a current broken system fails it will be analagous to the old soviet union collapsing under its own weight....that was a system that was uninspiring and cookie cutter...money was thrown at that system too but people were left disillusioned just like what our school system as a whole does to our children...exceptions? good teachers? yes on both counts....and that is the problem, they are exceptions....a short time ago a young teacher in NY related that her own union and superiors stifle the things she needs to do...she is not wrong

by the way.....Cenare at 30 dollars when factored for inflation for a guy from NM who grew up in the seventies is nothing more than a ten dollar bite

when you say we desperately need for the system to succeed...Mike that was said by people in the colonies back in the 1750's 60's and 70's because they were under the umbrella of the empire that never saw the sun set an empire that had the most enlightened embrace of 'natural law' to that point in history.....and that system too was thought also to need to succeed....but you see, rot rises to the top after the cream first rose and is left to sit out unattended

and that last few words is the case in a nutshell...and to make light of this serious matter and to poke fun at myself a little.....when you hear father al say :"
rot rises to the top after the cream first rose and is left to sit out unattended.." i would add the following...for those with ears to hear...hear...and for those w eyes to see....see


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## Randoneur (Mar 7, 2011)

IMHO get as much education as possible and get multiple degrees if you can. Get work study when and where ever possible. Educational achievement is proof that you are focused on goals and can see your plans through to completion. You either have work ethic or you don't. Use that work ethic to get an education and the use it in your career.


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## AlFulchino (Mar 7, 2011)

just saw your post before exiting the page....your statement only hold water w a sincere person....example of the rot rising to the top is the degree holder sitting in a white house in washington..he says the same things that you said..so we have to go past the easy words....i know you are sincere...but the rot has risen to the top....it is evident everywhere..Mike said.....we are behind in the world...so degrees are not evidence of anything


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## AlFulchino (Mar 8, 2011)

*Ernest and Julio Gallo*

timing seems to be everything some time....went to turn the tv last night....on comes Biography on CNBC which occasionally has some good stuff....the subject of Ernest and Julio Gallo was the story for the evening....below is the trailer so that you can find the right show.....this topic came to mind when they discussed how Ernest learned how to make wine.....it will blow you away....if you are serious about going to school for winemaking or not.....or if you you are serious about what *you* can do for yourself, then watch this tv program...i am sure it will be repeated or is On Demand on cable...the timing for me to see this and share it is uncanny...i dont want people believing me because i believe what i know...i want you to see it for yourself..and this tv program is priceless in that regard

cant get the video to embed so here is the direct link

http://classic.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1436171248&play=1



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http://classic.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1436171248&play=1
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## Flem (Mar 8, 2011)

I only caught the last part of it but it was very enlightening. I hope to see the whole thing.


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## AlFulchino (Mar 8, 2011)

Hi Flem...i agree it was very entertaining too..i don't want to spoil it by saying more...but after a huge family tragedy those boys did what they had to do....and this topic is apropos to it.


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## Wade E (Mar 8, 2011)

Schooling is absolutely needed in life! The problem in this world is the fact that we(most people now a days) are just putting it time with no passion, dont follow the path that they are interested in so its all wasted, and the right people cant afford it. To the right person schooling can take you so much farther. Unfortunately for me I couldnt afford it nor could I stand getting past all the BS I had to take to get to Point B where I wanted to be. All the BS requisites needed to get into the class I wanted taking night school for 2 years pushed me to the point where I said screw it. I was going for what Rich does before he goes out into his vineyard to fulfill his real dream. I dont see my daughter going to college as she isnt good in school now matter what we do here, We've had tutors for her and everything. My son on the other hand is very strong in school but by the time he's ready for college there will be no way Ill be able to help him financially get there. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here but lets not say schooling isnt a good thing. Without it I highly doubt we would be on these computers or for that matter be able to read what the person in front of you posted. Personally I dont think its the schools fault, I think its ours in that we dont push our kids hard enough and they get away with so much now. WE cant even spank our kids anymore!


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## Wade E (Mar 8, 2011)

Basically what I meant to say here before I got off subject here is that if your passionate about it Im asure you could leant something here that maybe you wouldnt digging in the dirt yourself. Learning hands on is always best but sometimes the errors made doing that can be lessoned quite a bit by learning from someone has already has knowledge in this area. I wouldnt go trying to take apart my transmission myself without at least someone there who has done it before.


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## roblloyd (Mar 8, 2011)

I sort of agree with Wade, but I would try rebuilding a car without anyone else teaching me how. Books and internet can teach quite a bit. Would I open up a car repair place based on books? No. That's where schooling helps, or at least some type of degree/certificate comes in. I don't think you'd have customers banging your door down looking to be your 2nd car repair project.

Can you make it on your own? Of course, many have but isn't against the norm? Passion, desire, and taking control is what does it. Toss in a degree and you'll blow the doors off the normal person who wasn't sure what they want.
I was a computer science major and someone I was graduating with in the same computer classes was asking me about what computer to buy. Not sure what he's doing today but he had no passion for going above and beyond textbooks.

Teaching for the past 5 years has also shown me that some people need a place to get away and learn. Learning on your own is not easy with life going on all around you. Even worse if you're married, job & kids. No way will the average person have the discipline to focus on what they need.

I'm learning about wine when the house is quiet and everyone is asleep - even the dog. Luckily I don't need as much sleep as everyone else here.


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## AlFulchino (Mar 9, 2011)

i am not sure that any poster here in this entire thread ever ruled out schools as having a place, so i am not sure why that concept gained any ground...there are cases as mentioned where a school is the only place that can gather certain resources...among them costly equipment and chemicals.....however...the results of our school system as a whole is plain for all..and..as Wade pointed out himself....often two yrs of wasted hoops and the many points that i have raised have poisoned the well (Wade's stories, made my case several times in his post)

money keeps getting poured in....the next generation of parents get blasted w propaganda from the school machine and fall into line and out comes what???...on and on....why repeat it all?....the Gallo Biography which i recommended everyone to watch said it all....and that will take any bias about the issue away if anyone has any thoughts concerning me or my views...the point of this topic was simple and that is what started this.......the Gallo father never taught his boys how to make wine....watch that program and see for yourself what happenned!

remember this topic's first question was about one thing...going to school for winemaking...it is good to bring that idea back full circle now

and in the end....if you want to go to school for winemaking...knock yourself out..who am i or anyone else to tell you know? i am no one certainly...but this is a discussion board...yes? the question was raised...it was a good exercise to flesh out


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## J-Gee (Mar 9, 2011)

For some reason,I was late picking up on this thread and just read it in it's entirety.I greatly appreciate all of the posts. Al...I certainly enjoyed your insight and comments.You said it so well.


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## AlFulchino (Mar 9, 2011)

very kind of you....thank you .....


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