# First Attempt Using Frozen Must



## rødvinselsker (May 7, 2020)

Two pails of Livermore CS & two Merlot arrive today. From what I've read, it takes 1-3 days to thaw. Do most simply thaw at room temp or do you use a heated wrap to help the process? Also ordered a Vinmetrica SC-300 to check other vitals; that should keep my up at night since chemistry was never my strong.

My game plan is that when thawed I'll consolidate the cab and merlot into separate 20 gallon brutes, inoculate with D21, GoFerm Protect Evo, and Lallzyme EX-V. Per advice from a JohnD thread, I'll also co-inoculate with CH16 shortly after AF begins to facilitate MLF. After AF hits 1.0, rack into 5 or 6 gal carboys and add Opti Malo Plus, then top off. Once MLF is complete, re-rack, and add two medium toast oak spirals to each carboy.

Since this is my first non-kit fermentation, please chime in to let me know what I'm missing. Thanks!


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## CDrew (May 7, 2020)

Sounds like a good start to me.

I try and give the enzymes a 12 hour head start on the yeast. Don't know if that's 100% necessary

You may want to feed the fermentation with some Fermaid O or Fermaid K as you go. The first feed at cap formation and the second at 16-18 brix. That's a safer approach to avoid a stressed fermentation.

D21 is a very good yeast. It doesn't get much talk here but I don't know why. I used it extensively in 2018 and had good success with it.

The CH16 has been a good MLF performer for me too, and I don't think you'll need to feed it with the Opti Malo unless you want to. I've always just done the "direct inoculation" approach recommended by Chris Hansen(the manufacturer), and I add it just after the first cap forms.

Regarding oak-It's easy to over do it. You're probably fine, but just be aware. You might want to do the CS with 2 and the Merlot with 1. Then taste. If the merlot needs more oak, you can always go another round of oaking.

Good luck, and post pics.


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## stickman (May 7, 2020)

I've been thawing at room temperature with some periodic mixing.


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## Johnd (May 7, 2020)

My advice is to let it thaw as slowly as possible, you'll get a few days of cold soaking for free. I'm also a big advocate, when doing coinoculation of yeast and MLB, of feeding each of them properly, you do not want them competing for nutrients.

Consider using Fermaid K as your yeast food, and Opti-Malo as your MLB food, adding half dose of each at the time of MLB addition to the must. Second dose of Fermaid K at 1/2 - 2/3 sugar depletion, second dose of Opti-Malo when you have pressed and racked off of the gross lees, this will give your MLB the food it may need to finish up in the carboys without the benefit of the skins/pulp/ etc.

Lastly, while I don't rehydrate yeast, I do believe that rehydrating your MLB with Acti-ML is a very inexpensive insurance policy to get the MLF going well.

Sounds like you've got a great project about to kick off, enjoy!!!!!!!!


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## rødvinselsker (May 7, 2020)

OK, this is disappointing, just received two of the four pails, no insulation in the corrugated box to keep them frozen during the seven day transit, and the packages were stained with juice. The grapes are no loner frozen. Waiting for a reply from the vendor, grapesforwine. In the mean time, curious if anyone else has had this happen, or if it's normal. Not sure what to do at this point but ask for a refund and try someone else, like Brehms. Live & learn.


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## Johnd (May 7, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> OK, this is disappointing, just received two of the four pails, no insulation in the corrugated box to keep them frozen during the seven day transit, and the packages were stained with juice. The grapes are no loner frozen. Waiting for a reply from the vendor, grapesforwine. In the mean time, curious if anyone else has had this happen, or if it's normal. Not sure what to do at this point but ask for a refund and try someone else, like Brehms. Live & learn.View attachment 60887
> View attachment 60888
> 
> View attachment 60890
> View attachment 60889


Are they still cool? I wouldn’t hesitate getting enzymes and yeast on board.


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## CDrew (May 7, 2020)

Just go for it as long as it isn't spoiled smelling. I think it thawed while on it's way to you. Were the grapes crushed? They almost look like they are still whole.

The company will not want to pay to return ship them, so hopefully you get some $ back. But seriously, I'd get your fermentation started ASAP. You have nothing to loose other than a few grams of yeast.

Edit: Looks like @Johnd and I are thinking along the same lines. Delay now can only hurt you.


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## rødvinselsker (May 7, 2020)

Got the Brute cleaned up, rehydrated the yeast with GFPE and pitched it around 6:15PM. Didn't have a bit to drill a hole in the 20Gal brute for the spigot I bought, and didn't want to waste anymore time since the grapes/juice were already over 60*°* F. Also don't get my Lallzyme EX-V until tomorrow, so not sure if it will too late to use. Finally, never got an answer from the seller as to whether SO2 was added, though I've heard most pails of frozen must are sulfited. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath. 

On another note, the Eclipse Stags Leap Merlot smells heavenly and is tearing through fermentation.


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## Johnd (May 7, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> Got the Brute cleaned up, rehydrated the yeast with GFPE and pitched it around 6:15PM. Didn't have a bit to drill a hole in the 20Gal brute for the spigot I bought, and didn't want to waste anymore time since the grapes/juice were already over 60*°* F. Also don't get my Lallzyme EX-V until tomorrow, so not sure if it will too late to use. Finally, never got an answer from the seller as to whether SO2 was added, though I've heard most pails of frozen must are sulfited. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath.
> 
> On another note, the Eclipse Stags Leap Merlot smells heavenly and is tearing through fermentation.


Add your EX-V when you get it, it’ll work. Follow th dosage instructions, it doesn’t take much!


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## rødvinselsker (May 9, 2020)

FedEx tracking says the the EX-V and Opti-Red should be here today, so still planning on putting them in when they arrive. 

36 hours in, no noticeable fermentation, but the must is warming, so some activity. I put my carboy warmer on the brute to coax the temp up to 82*°* F. Also wondered if whole berries would slow down the onset of fermentation, and found this on GuildSomm.com, 

"Most winemakers on the west coast refer to whole berry ferments as the process where you remover the rollers from the crusher/destemmer and render it just a destemmer that removes berries from stems without rupturing them. The article you posted refers to whole cluster and whole berry ferments as the same thing but more commonly whole cluster ferments means some % of whole clusters with stems goes into the tank (stems contribute a lot of tannin) whereas whole berry ferments refer to fermentations composed of a large % of unruptured berries and no stems. Whole berry fermenations have become increasingly popular over the last few years as they tend to slow the down pace of fermentation at the beginning giving the wine more time on the skins and giving the wine maker more control over the process. They also result in less busted seeds and less harsh seed tannin."

Patience weedhopper.


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## Johnd (May 9, 2020)

82°F is plenty warm enough, if it’s inside at room temps, you should consider removing that heat once it gets going and generating its own heat.

Not sure how the whole berries will factor into your AF timing, nor how the EX-V will perform. My guess is that it’ll still get in there to do its thing through the stem holes, as will the yeast, plus, I see plenty of popped berries in your photo. Your plan seems solid.

BTW, I re-read your original post, noted your plan to add 2 oak spirals per carboy, might want to consider 1 per carboy. After you’ve gotten the oak flavor from one, you can always add another til you get the taste right. Spirals have a lot of surface area and, for me, can put a lot of oak on board pretty quickly.


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## Chuck E (May 9, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> FedEx tracking says the the EX-V and Opti-Red should be here today, so still planning on putting them in when they arrive.
> 
> 36 hours in, no noticeable fermentation, but the must is warming, so some activity. I put my carboy warmer on the brute to coax the temp up to 82*°* F. Also wondered if whole berries would slow down the onset of fermentation, and found this on GuildSomm.com,
> 
> Patience weedhopper.



I like to keep my red ferments in the 70-80F range. Don't forget to punch down the cap at least twice a day. The punch down will also break the berries so the EX-V will work better.


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## rødvinselsker (May 9, 2020)

I may be overdoing the punch down, if that's possible. The heater is connected to a controller with probe in the must, keeping it steady at 82°F. Two days in and I can hear it doing something, just can't see it as visibly as I would like. 

AF began ahead of what I planned, for obvious reasons, so wondering if I should still do TA & pH tests with the SC-300 that just arrived.


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## Boatboy24 (May 9, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> AF began ahead of what I planned, for obvious reasons, so wondering if I should still do TA & pH tests with the SC-300 that just arrived.



Were it my wine, I'd want to test, just to know - at least for pH. If they are significantly off from desired levels, you're better off adjusting now. Just be sure you've removed any CO2 from your sample first.


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## crushday (May 9, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> View attachment 60887



That lid looks bloated...

I sure hope you can get this wine going... Any word on the other two buckets? This late spring heat is a killer...


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## rødvinselsker (May 9, 2020)

Johnd said:


> 82°F is plenty warm enough, if it’s inside at room temps, you should consider removing that heat once it gets going and generating its own heat.
> 
> Not sure how the whole berries will factor into your AF timing, nor how the EX-V will perform. My guess is that it’ll still get in there to do its thing through the stem holes, as will the yeast, plus, I see plenty of popped berries in your photo. Your plan seems solid.
> 
> BTW, I re-read your original post, noted your plan to add 2 oak spirals per carboy, might want to consider 1 per carboy. After you’ve gotten the oak flavor from one, you can always add another til you get the taste right. Spirals have a lot of surface area and, for me, can put a lot of oak on board pretty quickly.



You're probably right about the oak, always easy to add later if it's not enough. Regards to the whole berries, I'm doing a deep punch, though not bottoming out, to see if I can break the berries without bursting the seeds. The number of stems is also a bit of a problem, but keep weeding them out. This was clearly mechanically harvested.


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## rødvinselsker (May 9, 2020)

crushday said:


> That lid looks bloated...
> 
> I sure hope you can get this wine going... Any word on the other two buckets? This late spring heat is a killer...


The two buckets of CS were reported damaged. That's a drag because I wanted to ferment separately and blend the two after aging. Guess I'll go to Brehms for that.


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## rødvinselsker (May 9, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> Were it my wine, I'd want to test, just to know - at least for pH. If they are significantly off from desired levels, you're better off adjusting now. Just be sure you've removed any CO2 from your sample first.


I'll test tomorrow morning, if for no other reason, to get an idea of how to use the darn thing and know what I'm looking for. Fortunately, given the condition of the grapes, the vendor did the right thing and has credited the order. I don't know whether this will turn out good or not, but good knowing I won't take a hit if it doesn't.


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## crushday (May 9, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> The two buckets of CS were reported damaged. That's a drag because I wanted to ferment separately and blend the two after aging. Guess I'll go to Brehms for that.


You might consider winegrapesdirect.com - I’ve had a super great experience with them. They have Livermore...

See my latest string...


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## rødvinselsker (May 10, 2020)

Update: SG last night at 7 pm last night sitting at 1.054; this morning 7 am it's still sitting at 1.054. I tend to be the guy who likes to solve tough problems, though I would have preferred my first grape experience go a bit smoother. That said, seems many fermentations that get stuck this early are often due to high brix; this one was over 26, in and of itself not that high, but as @crushday pointed out, the top of the container was swelling. So, if that was CO2 from AF due to native yeast, I can only assume it was gobbling up the glucose, leaving mainly fructose.

Got ahead of myself an added EC1118 to try to get things going again, but feel I should have racked it and re-inoculated with Uvaferm 43 RESTART, known as a fructophillic yeast (it works well in stuck fermentations where the remaining sugars are fructose). If the EC1118 doesn't work then I'll try the 43 as a last resort. Past that, it becomes fertilizer :-(

FWIW, here's what I found in case anyone else runs into this issue. The process is cumbersome, but depending on your investment, patience and equipment, may be worth it.


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## CDrew (May 10, 2020)

What's the temperature? I'd be pretty surprised if it's stuck so early. Can you see any evidence of fermentation? Did you proof your yeast before starting?

But you have had your trial here! By next fall, you'll know what to do and not do and be ready for harvest.


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## rødvinselsker (May 10, 2020)

CDrew said:


> What's the temperature? I'd be pretty surprised if it's stuck so early. Can you see any evidence of fermentation? Did you proof your yeast before starting?
> 
> But you have had your trial here! By next fall, you'll know what to do and not do and be ready for harvest.



Followed protocol for yeast rehydration starting with 110*°* F for the GoFerm Protect, then at 104*°* slowly added the D21. Let that sit for 20 minutes, then slowly added a small amount of juice. Same thing I did for the Eclipse kit. Same protocol for the EC1118. But, like you said, got it out of the way.

I'll check the SG tomorrow night or Tuesday morning; want to give the new yeast time to propagate.


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## cmason1957 (May 10, 2020)

I think you may have jumped to soon to assume it was having problems. I don't measure the sg ever 12 hours, heck not even every 24 hours. Particularly, if I see some evidence of fermentation.


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## rødvinselsker (May 10, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> I think you may have jumped to soon to assume it was having problems. I don't measure the sg ever 12 hours, heck not even every 24 hours. Particularly, if I see some evidence of fermentation.


Measured it at start on Thursday at 7:00 pm and not again until Saturday when it read 1.054. You would expect that within another 12 hours it continue it's downward progress, seems to me anyway.


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## stickman (May 10, 2020)

Did you add Fermaid as planned?


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## rødvinselsker (May 10, 2020)

stickman said:


> Did you add Fermaid as planned?


I did that yesterday afternoon, along with the Opti-Red and Lallazyme. Five hours later I checked the SG. Perhaps I'm wrong about my perception, but just doesn't seem to be much going on there, but not throwing in the towel yet.


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## rødvinselsker (May 11, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> Measured it at start on Thursday at 7:00 pm, and it was around 21 brix, well below stated 25.2 by supplier, and not again until Saturday when it read 1.054. That's why I'm concerned that AF started in transit; not sure how else the SG goes from a stated 11.107 to 1.054 in 48 hours. You would expect that within another 12 hours it continue it's downward progress, seems to me anyway.





crushday said:


> That lid looks bloated...
> 
> I sure hope you can get this wine going... Any word on the other two buckets? This late spring heat is a killer...


I looked at WineGrapesDirect and the vineyard description was virtually identical (it's since been changed) for the grapes from my vendor, though they were $99/pail delivered (I guess you get what you pay for). The label indicated these came from Bulk Grapes / Wine - Misson Wines – Family-Owned Vineyard. WGD indicates Brix 25.4, pH 3.78, TA .55, and my "supplier" indicated Brix 26.75, pH 3.79, TA .59. Guess my question is, did your initial readings confirm their estimates to be correct? And, were they frozen???

Thanks,

Tim


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## crushday (May 11, 2020)

Tim, I'm not the best resource, because of proximity, to help you gauge the certainty the must would arrive frozen from WGD. When I deal with WGD, I drive and pick up the grapes. It's worth it for me to drive 2 hours because I save on the shipping and have been buying in lots of 10+ pails each time.

However, Brehm is in Portland metro too and I have ordered grapes from them and they were shipped (FedEx) via a well insulated box and arrived frozen solid. It only took two days to get to my house but they did arrive frozen. And, it took 3 days to thaw enough to get the grapes out of the pail and the core was still mostly frozen.

Email Andrew at WGD and just ask about the shipping: [email protected]

Again, great guys to work with...

And, the advertised readings were within a few 100ths of my tests... Didn't check Brix, though. Not worried about the ABV...


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## rødvinselsker (May 11, 2020)

crushday said:


> Tim, I'm not the best resource, because of proximity, to help you gauge the certainty the must would arrive frozen from WGD. When I deal with WGD, I drive and pick up the grapes. It's worth it for me to drive 2 hours because I save on the shipping and have been buying in lots of 10+ pails each time.
> 
> However, Brehm is in Portland metro too and I have ordered grapes from them and they were shipped (FedEx) via a well insulated box and arrived frozen solid. It only took two days to get to my house but they did arrive frozen. And, it took 3 days to thaw enough to get the grapes out of the pail and the core was still mostly frozen.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate the information and email.


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## Ajmassa (May 11, 2020)

Just read thru this whole thread. Unless I missed it I don’t think you described what’s going on visually with the wines. 
Are the grapes forming a dry cap still? Whenyou punch down are you seeing the wine all bubbly and purple? Or is it sitting there wet and dead? 
Should be fairly easy to determine if it’s active testing aside. I never had a cap stop forming until the end. And sometimes the SG drop can trick ya -slowing to a halt and then picking up like gangbusters.


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## rødvinselsker (May 11, 2020)

Likely my rookie eyes, but the cap just appears to be lifeless. I checked the SG tonight and it's down to 1.039, so can't really say if it's the new yeast or, as you say, the original fermnation taking a break then starting back again in earnest. After watching the Eclipse come alive as it did, this batch just seemed to sit there, and given the condition when it arrived, guess I just thought the worst. I'll update when/if it hits 0.996. 

In the mean time I bought some Uvaferm 43 just in case I need it for a future problem fermentation. Hard to believe all the stuff I've purchased already just to support this new hobby, just like having a track car.


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## rødvinselsker (May 13, 2020)

This appears headed towards .996 and have kicked around leaving it on the skins for a week before MLF but don’t want to invite bacteria. It’s in a brute 20 gal with a plastic lid. I’ve seen no kmeta since it will thwart MLF; just curious if anyone has concerns about that plan. Thanks!


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## CDrew (May 13, 2020)

Congrats. I am not an expert, but I would not leave it that long in the brute. Too much oxygen and spoilage potential. It's time to press into carboys, and than rack after 2-3 days off the gross lees.


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## rødvinselsker (May 13, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Congrats. I am not an expert, but I would not leave it that long in the brute. Too much oxygen and spoilage potential. It's time to press into carboys, and than rack after 2-3 days off the gross lees.


Thanks for that. I wondered about oxygen penetration. What are you guys fermenting in when you do EM?


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## Ajmassa (May 13, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> Thanks for that. I wondered about oxygen penetration. What are you guys fermenting in when you do EM?


As a home winemaker and not a winery some things just aren’t realistic. Though smaller volumes can use that “big mouth bubbler” thing.

A couple times when timing wasn’t working out - and its dry by Friday night but I can’t press till Sunday, I’ve covered the cap with some sanitized plastic. A few layers. Plus the lid. But that’s risking the dreaded h2s also.

getting max out of those skins within a hobbyists means safely* is often discussed here. Some try temp control. Enzymes. Cold soaking the must. Split batches for multiple yeast strains Etc. different tricks. Some easier than others. the never ending pursuit of great wine! But start getting cocky and the wine likes to show ya who’s boss with some curveballs.
Getting quality fruit is the first step- which isn’t easily accessible to everyone. My top priority is always a complete and healthy fermentation 1st. Getting cute is 2nd


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## crushday (May 25, 2020)

How's your wine coming along?


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## rødvinselsker (May 25, 2020)

It stuck for a couple of days so I decided to rack and press the grapes into another carboy, then used Uvaferm 43. It’s currently going through MLF so I’ll be testing my new toy to monitor the progress. Not holding my breath, but hopefully will have a better idea in a few weeks. Thanks for asking.


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## crushday (May 25, 2020)

rødvinselsker said:


> It’s currently going through MLF so I’ll be testing my new toy to monitor the progress. Not holding my breath, but hopefully will have a better idea in a few weeks.



So sorry this has been a complete nightmare for you. I ordered “fresh” cuttings from this same company and they arrived dried out and lifeless. I used rooting hormone and put them in a planter but I’m not expecting much. Time will tell.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 26, 2020)

Thread bump*

(After seeing it mentioned today). @rødvinselsker how’d you make out with this?
Anything to update ?

did it end up going dry eventually? (You certainly added yeast enough times! Lol)
Complete MLF & now aging?
Ever end up getting more frozen must- this time actually frozen ?


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## grapesforwine (Sep 5, 2020)

Hello all, this shipment was damaged and a full refund was provided to the buyer. We apologize for the inconvenience. If there is ever a damaged bucket in transit, we refund 100% or immediately reship without any questions asked even though UPS/FedEx will not reimburse us for transit delay related damage to "perishable goods". This goes to our customer satisfaction guarantee. 

UPS had some issues delivering during the months of April/May and we tried to add extra thermal padding and cold packs after the issues with this particular shipment. 

Hope to earn your business in the future! 

BTW - we also have pickup options from our warehouse in Portland. It is located near PDX airport.


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## Hayden_Bradbury (Mar 1, 2021)

Thread Bump

I just ordered grapes from @grapesforwine and I am interested how everything is turning out @rødvinselsker? 

I ordered a pail of Cabernet and a pail of Sangiovese.


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## chitownwine (Mar 22, 2021)

How did they arrive? Any complaints?


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## Meadini (Mar 22, 2021)

I ordered a pail of Cabernet Sauvignon from them that arrived on Friday. It took five days to get t Denver. It was thawed when I got home at six but still very cold. It smelled and tasted great and fermentation is progressing well.


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## Tim3 (Jun 13, 2021)

I also ordered a few buckets from them. You can tell the fruit is machine harvested, which is fine, but you should be prepared to pull some sticks, leaves, and bugs from the must after it’s thawed. Also, take their brix and ph readings with a grain of salt. For example the 2020 Cabernet Sauvignon buckets arrived with brix between 22-23 and PH between 3.96 - 4.0. The 2019 bucket I bought was 23.5 brix and PH of 3.94. I can’t tell you how many times I calibrated my meter to verify (even bought more PH solution just to make sure). Anyway, nothing a bit of balancing can’t fix. Overall I’d recommend it for the price but when you want to make something really special look at buying from Peter at Brehm!


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## rødvinselsker (Jun 16, 2021)

Sorry I've been absent from this thread for so long. Was in the process of selling my business, and now that I'm finished with that project it's time to focus on what's important: Making good wine!

While the initial presentation of the merlot was a bit disappointing, I did get it to complete AF and MLF, then bulk stored it with oak for about ten months before bottling. Can't say it wasn't clumsy, given it was my first wine from fruit, but the results were far from disappointing. Since it was my first go, I don't really have a point of reference to compare the fruit to another vintage, but it's more than drinkable. Bottled it about 30 days ago and will uncork one and report back when we return from Paso Robles in August.

I will say that if you like what they offer, it can be compelling since their prices are delivered. If you want to go past just pails, they offer barrels what hold about 500 pounds of must in each. If my math is correct, that's 2.5 tons of grapes.

Good luck!


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## Chuck E (Jun 16, 2021)

rødvinselsker said:


> I will say that if you like what they offer, it can be compelling since their prices are delivered. If you want to go past just pails, they offer barrels what hold about 500 pounds each. If my math is correct, that's 2.5 tons of grapes.



.25 tons, still a lot!


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## rødvinselsker (Jul 10, 2021)

Chuck E said:


> .25 tons, still a lot!


Duh, yah, guess I was confusing pounds and gallons. but still not a bad deal if the fruit if good, and so far the results indicate it is. Just going to wait until it's really cold to place another order so it stays frozen ;-)


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