# About To Try the RJ Spagnols Super Tuscan



## Mike Parisi (Dec 1, 2019)

To be delivered tomorrow.

I have been reading the instructions, and I know I will need several gallons of water, but I have no idea how much I will need. The instructions say to add 4 liters of water to the primary fermenter, add bentonite, add the juice, then fill the fermenter to the 6 gallon mark with more water.

So, here are my initial questions:

1. How many gallons of concentrate are included in the kit? So I will know how much water I will need.
2. Should I use bottled drinking water? Tap water? Our water here is pretty hard.

I want to make sure I have enough water on hand before starting.

Thanks. I am very new to this. Just finished my first kit, bottled a week ago, so trying to get this one going while the garage is still warm enough.


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## Lwrightjs (Dec 1, 2019)

I've always used tap. I hear that if your water is good enough to drink then it's fine for winemaking.
For gallons of concentrate, it should say on the box.


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## Mcjeff (Dec 1, 2019)

I use spring water as I have a well and softener. I usually buy a 3 gallon pack to have on hand, but this kit doesn’t take much, maybe a little over a gallon.


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## Johnd (Dec 1, 2019)

Mike Parisi said:


> To be delivered tomorrow.
> 
> I have been reading the instructions, and I know I will need several gallons of water, but I have no idea how much I will need. The instructions say to add 4 liters of water to the primary fermenter, add bentonite, add the juice, then fill the fermenter to the 6 gallon mark with more water.
> 
> ...



I use spring water, but you can use tap if it’s good. 

As far as how much water, check out the kit you ordered, it should disclose the volume of liquid in the kit, in liters. Subtract that from 23 liters and that how much water you’ll need.


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## Rocky (Dec 1, 2019)

Mike, I assume you are referring to the RJ Spagnols En Primeur kit which has 16 liters of concentrate and 2 liters of crushed grape skins for a total of 18 liters. I have not made this kit for some time now but I made it years ago and it was outstanding. I find that my key to the amount of H2O to add is driven by the ABV that I would like to hit and therefore on the initial and final SGs. This particular wine can be made to a very high ABV (as much as 14%). So using the formula, (ISG-FSG) x 131 = ABV, I would assume an FSG of 0.992 and add water to lower the ISG to the appropriate level. For example, if you target ABV is 12.5% and you assume a final SG of 0.992, you would need an initial SG of 1.088 or slightly less. Also, before you pitch your yeast, stir the juice and grape skins very well because you will get additional sugar from the grape skins. Give it some time then take and adjust to your target ISG before pitching the yeast.

Lastly, and I am one of the few on the forum who do, I use distilled water for reconstituting. My rationale is that only water is removed from the grape juice to make the concentrate and distilled water is pure H2O with no salts, minerals, etc. Therefore, I am only adding back what was removed.

Good luck. That is a great wine.


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## Johnd (Dec 1, 2019)

Rocky said:


> Mike, I assume you are referring to the RJ Spagnols En Primeur kit which has 16 liters of concentrate and 2 liters of crushed grape skins for a total of 18 liters. I have not made this kit for some time now but I made it years ago and it was outstanding. I find that my key to the amount of H2O to add is driven by the ABV that I would like to hit and therefore on the initial and final SGs. This particular wine can be made to a very high ABV (as much as 14%). So using the formula, (ISG-FSG) x 131 = ABV, I would assume an FSG of 0.992 and add water to lower the ISG to the appropriate level. For example, if you target ABV is 12.5% and you assume a final SG of 0.992, you would need an initial SG of 1.088 or slightly less. Also, before you pitch your yeast, stir the juice and grape skins very well because you will get additional sugar from the grape skins. Give it some time then take and adjust to your target ISG before pitching the yeast.
> 
> Lastly, and I am one of the few on the forum who do, I use distilled water for reconstituting. My rationale is that only water is removed from the grape juice to make the concentrate and distilled water is pure H2O with no salts, minerals, etc. Therefore, I am only adding back what was removed.
> 
> Good luck. That is a great wine.



If that’s the correct kit, you’ll need to add water to 23 liters BEFORE adding the grape pack, so you’ll need 7 liters (2 gallons) available to get to 23, though you may not need it all. It’s a good practice to put a 23 L mark on your bucket if it doesn’t come with one. Once you mix your bentonite / water, then add the concentrate, just fill up to the 23L mark.


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## Rocky (Dec 2, 2019)

John, what you say is true and your method will give you an ABV that, while in a narrow range, will vary. The method I use gives me the ABV that I want and not what the kit gives me. I do this with all my wines and it works fine for me.


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## Johnd (Dec 2, 2019)

Rocky said:


> John, what you say is true and your method will give you an ABV that, while in a narrow range, will vary. The method I use gives me the ABV that I want and not what the kit gives me. I do this with all my wines and it works fine for me.



Understood Rocky, and I’m sure it works wonderfully for you. This is the OP’s second kit, he’s just learning to follow kit instructions, and asked how much water to have on hand, which I answered, along with some reaffirmation of the process detailed in the instructions. I also firmly believe he’d be way better off following the instructions on his second kit.


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## pproctorga (Dec 2, 2019)

I have this same kit finishing fermentation now. Since you’re just starting with this hobby my suggestions are:

Start with the instructions. It will tell you how much water to add. However, before adding the final half gallon or so, check your OG. You want to do what Rocky says and get it in a range. For this wine around 1.10 would be typical. If your OG is too low then you end up with a weak wine. If it’s too high you get a stuck fermentation and the FG is too high with residual sugars. That was my case.

I went with the instructions for water additions. I had conflicting numbers for OG from my hydrometer and my refractometer, so I let it ride, figuring that the EC-1118 yeast could handle it. It turned out to be too high so the yeast died and I had to add more water and yeast to get the final gravity back down.

For water types, get to know your water. If its hard then you’ll want to blend it down or go with bottled water. Get a test kit or send a sample to Ward labs so you know what you have. I’ve tested my water and it has near-distilled properties, so I can use it. The process of making the kits leads me to understand that they’re basically pulling distilled water out of the juice to make the concentrate, so we need to put something close to that back.


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## Rocky (Dec 2, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Understood Rocky, and I’m sure it works wonderfully for you. This is the OP’s second kit, he’s just learning to follow kit instructions, and asked how much water to have on hand, which I answered, along with some reaffirmation of the process detailed in the instructions. I also firmly believe he’d be way better off following the instructions on his second kit.



I missed that it was only his second kit. Likely he should follow the instructions with the caveat that pproctorga states above, i.e. check SG before adding the last couple liters of water. This is a great kit and the wine should be fairly high in ABV. I have seen "Super Tuscans" (which is a made up term and can consist of many combinations of varieties of grape) approaching 15% ABV. When I make a "Super Tuscan" I blend Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese and Merlot juices and add home made grape packs (usually Zinfandel). My ABV is normally around 14%.


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## 1d10t (Dec 2, 2019)

Water's cheap. Buy 'enough' and it won't go to waste.


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 2, 2019)

Rocky, yes that is the kit, and thanks for the tips. I will definitely follow the instructions, it was just that they didn't say what kind of water to use. And before topping off to the 6 gallon mark on the fementing bucket, I will tak a SG reading, looking for close to 1.10. The kit was delivered this afternoon, so will look to start it tomorrow.

Another question. What is the best way to remove the cap from the bladder? Pry it off with a screwdriver? cut it off? Should I take the bladder out of the box first? Anyone have a youtube on that? LOL.

I'm asking because of the accident I had with the Mosti All Juice kit. I got the bladder out of the bucket, laid it down on a table, and pried the top off. In the process, I spilled out maybe 1/2 liter of juice before controlling the bladder.


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## 1d10t (Dec 2, 2019)

Should I make a bladder leakage joke here? Depends.....


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## Rocky (Dec 3, 2019)

Mike, there is a tool for removing the caps on the juice bags,
https://labelpeelers.com/equipment/cappers/pvc-shrink-tool-bag-decapper-combo/
but I made one of my own out of wood


Alternatively, you can avoid the cap all together by clipping off one corner of the bag at the bottom and letting the juice run out that way. Have the bag positioned over your fermenter before cutting off the corner. Lastly, early on, I just used to hold the bag securely around the cap and pry it off with my fingers.


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## Lwrightjs (Dec 3, 2019)

You guys don't use your teeth to pry those caps off? Oops...


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 4, 2019)

Got it started today. I ended up using a plain bottle/can opener to get the cap off the juice bag. It worked great. So well, in fact, that the top came off so fast that I had a spill before I could get the juice directed into the bucket. Also, clumsy me, about half of one of the two bags of wine skins missed the bag and went diretly into the juice. But I suppose those will just get left behind when I rack into the carboy.

Initial readings on the hydrometer: SG 1.11, Brix 24.0


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## Brian55 (Dec 4, 2019)

Mike Parisi said:


> Got it started today. I ended up using a plain bottle/can opener to get the cap off the juice bag. It worked great. So well, in fact, that the top came off so fast that I had a spill before I could get the juice directed into the bucket. Also, clumsy me, about half of one of the two bags of wine skins missed the bag and went diretly into the juice. But I suppose those will just get left behind when I rack into the carboy.
> 
> Initial readings on the hydrometer: SG 1.11, Brix 24.0


Some people skip the bag and let the skins swim, it does make racking a bit more of a chore.


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## ras2018 (Dec 4, 2019)

I have a designated bowl that I wrap my muslin bag around and dump the skins into and tie off. Once I’m ready for my skins, out of the bowl they go tied and and ready for a swim.


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## tjgaul (Dec 4, 2019)

Just throwing my 2 cents in. I made this same kit last year and just bottled it about a month ago. I made it to 6 gal +/- after the initial racking (ie: a little over 23L in primary). Even with the primary being in excess of 23L the starting SG was over 1.100. The end result is a fairly hot wine (high ABV), but the flavor is good and the oak and added tannins along the way make it very drinkable. It's already one of my favorite kits and I am hopeful that it mellows further with time. Oh, the water . . . straight from my unfiltered well.


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2019)

I do something similar to ras2018. I have an old stock pot that I open the bag over and secure with a large rubber band. I pour the grape skins/pack into the bag, remove the rubber band and tie a know in the neck of the bag. Any thing that runs through the bag is caught by the pot and added to the wine. This helps a lot when I rinse out the bag that the skins are in and pour into the bag to get everything into the wine.


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## pproctorga (Dec 8, 2019)

tjgaul said:


> Just throwing my 2 cents in. I made this same kit last year and just bottled it about a month ago. I made it to 6 gal +/- after the initial racking (ie: a little over 23L in primary). Even with the primary being in excess of 23L the starting SG was over 1.100. The end result is a fairly hot wine (high ABV), but the flavor is good and the oak and added tannins along the way make it very drinkable. It's already one of my favorite kits and I am hopeful that it mellows further with time. Oh, the water . . . straight from my unfiltered well.



I’m curious as to what your FG was. Mine right now will not get below 1.000, and after multiple properly prepped repitchings. Has anyone ever used glucoamylase to dry out their wines?


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## tjgaul (Dec 10, 2019)

pproctorga said:


> I’m curious as to what your FG was. Mine right now will not get below 1.000, and after multiple properly prepped repitchings. Has anyone ever used glucoamylase to dry out their wines?



SG 1.102 @ 72 degrees on 4/28/18 
FG .993 @ 61 degrees on 5/24/18 
Used RC-212 and gave it some Fermax to start and Fermaid-O on 5/3 (SG 1.034)

According to the FermCalc app this should be about 15% ABV.


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 14, 2019)

Racked into the carboy 3 days ago. SG was 1.014. Has been bubbling away, so I didn't take another reading until today. SG .992. But it is still bubbling away, about 1 bubble per second. Could that be CO2? Do I wait until it stops before gegassing it? If i degassed it now, would it just continue to make C02?


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## sour_grapes (Dec 14, 2019)

At 0.992, it is pretty much done fermenting. I would wager you are just witnessing outgassing of the CO2; your wine is currently saturated with it.

From here, there are a few routes to getting it fully degassed. The easiest is just to let it sit in the carboy under airlock for ~6 mos.


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 15, 2019)

The bubbling has slowed down, about 1 every 3 seconds now. Will wait a few more days, then go through the degassing and add the clarifying and stabilizing chemicals. Then just let it sit.


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 16, 2019)

The bubbling had slowed to about one every 8-10 seconds. So I racked into the fermenting bucket,degassed , added the chemicals to clarify and stabilize, and racked back into the cleaned and sterilized carboy. No bubbling at all, so it must have just been the CO2 bubbling out.


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 21, 2019)

The instructions say to either bottle it after 30 days or let it age in the carboy for another month before bottling. If I decide to let it go a second month before bottling, would it be of any benefit to rack it into another carboy just to get it off the sediment? If so, is there anything special I should do other than just racking it over (and taking a taste)? Add any more clarifying agents?


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## skyfire322 (Dec 21, 2019)

Mike Parisi said:


> The instructions say to either bottle it after 30 days or let it age in the carboy for another month before bottling. If I decide to let it go a second month before bottling, would it be of any benefit to rack it into another carboy just to get it off the sediment? If so, is there anything special I should do other than just racking it over (and taking a taste)? Add any more clarifying agents?



You wouldn't need to add any more clarifying agents if you re-rack. Let gravity take care of it at this point. And while I haven't made this particular kit yet (next red on my list), I heard bulk aging for at least three months takes it to the next level.


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## tjgaul (Dec 27, 2019)

Aging really helps any big bold red and I think it is especially true for this wine. I fermented this in April 2018 and bulk aged it until Nov 2019 (about 18 months). It is very good right now, but I think it will still improve quite a bit with a year in the bottle. 

I know that's a long wait if you are anxious to drink your new wine. Even if you're in a hurry I would let it sit at least one regular cycle (3 months) before bottling. If it has been fully de-gassed that should be enough time to let it fully clear. If you do bottle early be sure to set aside a few bottles to let them grow up to be toddlers. You will notice the difference. Good luck and enjoy!


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## Mike Parisi (Dec 28, 2019)

Thanks for the replies. Since this is only my second try at wine making, I will be anxious to try it. But I think i will be able to wait at least the two months, and maybe try to wit at least 3. After I bottle it, I will definitely set aside at least 12 bottles for a year, as I am doing with my first batch, a Mosti Nero D'Avola (which already tastes pretty good, after only a month).


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## Mike Parisi (Jan 16, 2020)

Just racked the Super Tuscan to another carboy after a month of clearing. It already looks quite clear, but I will wait at least another month before bottling. I am sneaking a tast as I post this. It is pretty good already, although not nearly as good as the Nero D'Avola at the same point. Very earthy, with almost a pine aroma, or maybe juniper. Or maybe just a peppery aroma. Did anyone else get this vibe?

I am going to really like this one, too, but I think it will clearly need more aging than the Nero.


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## jsbeckton (Jan 17, 2020)

I made this 2 years ago so still fairly young but I go back and forth on it. Sometimes I think it’s really good and other times I pick up the jammy tase that I associate with kit wine. To date the RJS Amarone Classico is the only kit wine that I have never found to have that.


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## Mike Parisi (Jan 17, 2020)

Is the Amarone Classico a really good one? Is it drinkable early?

Early, as in drinking within a month or two of bottling. Not early in the day, although that would work too, on some days.


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## jsbeckton (Jan 17, 2020)

Mike Parisi said:


> Is the Amarone Classico a really good one? Is it drinkable early?
> 
> Early, as in drinking within a month or two of bottling. Not early in the day, although that would work too, on some days.



Well...depends on how early you bottle [emoji57]

I may be in the minority here but IMO most kit wines do not change significantly after 1 year. They change of course, but @ 1yr it’s 90-95% of what it will be at 3-4 years. Again, that’s my opinion anyways after 15 premium kits and 4 years. People say “just wait” but I’ve been waiting 4-5 years now and some (the WE Lodi can comes to mind) are just kinda stagnate and don’t seem to be getting any better.

That said, to me, the RJS Amarone Classico was better at 6mo than any WE Eclipse wine that I ever made at 4yrs. Just had a bottle tonight with a spaghetti dinner and I forgot that it was a kit wine as I was drinking it which doesn’t happen often.


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## Brian55 (Jan 17, 2020)

Mike Parisi said:


> Is the Amarone Classico a really good one? Is it drinkable early?
> 
> Early, as in drinking within a month or two of bottling. Not early in the day, although that would work too, on some days.



I would recommend 2-3 years from the end of fermentation before drinking this one, especially early in the day. It's a big red and requires a decent amount of aging.


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## pillswoj (Jan 18, 2020)

jsbeckton said:


> I may be in the minority here but IMO most kit wines do not change significantly after 1 year. They change of course, but @ 1yr it’s 90-95% of what it will be at 3-4 years. Again, that’s my opinion anyways after 15 premium kits and 4 years. People say “just wait” but I’ve been waiting 4-5 years now and some (the WE Lodi can comes to mind) are just kinda stagnate and don’t seem to be getting any better.



The Eclipse Lodi CS was possibly the most meh high end kit I have done, It did undergo a change for the better at around 23 months but never wowed me, I have one bottle left 4.5 years old. The Eclipse Stags leap Merlot was excellent at 2 years, unfortunately was gone before 3 years. The RJS EP series all tend towards great after 2 years keeping in mind individual styles and tastes.


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## jsbeckton (Jan 18, 2020)

pillswoj said:


> The Eclipse Lodi CS was possibly the most meh high end kit I have done, It did undergo a change for the better at around 23 months but never wowed me, I have one bottle left 4.5 years old. The Eclipse Stags leap Merlot was excellent at 2 years, unfortunately was gone before 3 years. The RJS EP series all tend towards great after 2 years keeping in mind individual styles and tastes.



I’ve done the SLM 2x, one of the better ones but I now have bottles @2yr and at @4yr and they taste pretty similar. I’m not expecting the 4yr one to get any better.

I think I’ve made my last WE kit and I have found the RJS high end kits to be much better.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 18, 2020)

Mike Parisi said:


> Is the Amarone Classico a really good one? Is it drinkable early?
> 
> Early, as in drinking within a month or two of bottling. Not early in the day, although that would work too, on some days.



I last made the Amarone 4 years ago and opened a bottle the other night. It's excellent. But like any big, bold red, gets better with time. 18-24 months is my recommendation for both the Amarone and the Super Tuscan.


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## Mike Parisi (Feb 15, 2020)

Bottled the Super Tuscan today. Nice and clear and tastes pretty good. Ended up with an extra 2/3 bottle, so will sample that later today of tomorrow.


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## jsbeckton (Feb 15, 2020)

I make the ST and the Amarone Classico about 2.5 years ago. The ST is pretty good but Amarone is much better IMO. It’s one of only a handful of kits I’d ever make again.


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