# Bulk aging question



## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

I am posting this in beginners because I have switched from the FastFerment to bucket/carboy and am a bit confused. I hear folks talk about bulk aging. I know what this is, but unsure if it is meant for those who use fresh grapes, or does it pertain to winexpert and other kits as well? The directions on these kits are specific and say to bottle roughly after 4 weeks total including primary and secondary fermentation?

Thanks!


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## cmason1957 (Jul 27, 2015)

Bulk aging can be used on any kit or fresh grapes. You follow the kit instructions up until the bottle at 4 weeks, at that point you put it in a well topped up carboy (very little air gap at the top) and leave it. I rack mine every 60 to 90 days, add 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulphite every other racking. Bottle after 6 months to a year.

Next obvious question will be why, wine improves with time. I don't think any wine, except for dragons blood, skeeter pee, and maybe the Island Mist kits are ready to hit a bottle after 4—6 weeks.


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## GaDawg (Jul 27, 2015)

Some age longer in a carboy, I age in the bottle, unless I'm adding oak then 6 weeks before the bottle. Personally I can not tell the difference between bottle aging and carboy aging.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

cmason1957 said:


> Bulk aging can be used on any kit or fresh grapes. You follow the kit instructions up until the bottle at 4 weeks, at that point you put it in a well topped up carboy (very little air gap at the top) and leave it. I rack mine every 60 to 90 days, add 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulphite every other racking. Bottle after 6 months to a year.
> 
> Next obvious question will be why, wine improves with time. I don't think any wine, except for dragons blood, skeeter pee, and maybe the Island Mist kits are ready to hit a bottle after 4—6 weeks.



Thanks - The directions are misleading and say after bottling, wine will taste better with age. Aging in bottles I would think makes each bottle different and doesn't allow for addition of oak/peppercorns, etc., to age in bulk.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

GaDawg said:


> Some age longer in a carboy, I age in the bottle, unless I'm adding oak then 6 weeks before the bottle. Personally I can not tell the difference between bottle aging and carboy aging.




I guess the big difference to me would be aging in bulk with oak and whatever else you might want to add would make all the wine the same. I too age in bottles and some bottles taste different than others, but that's just me. As long as I know I can bulk age with kits, I am fine and really appreciate your help

Thanks!


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## Floandgary (Jul 27, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> I guess the big difference to me would be aging in bulk with oak and whatever else you might want to add would make all the wine the same. I too age in bottles and some bottles taste different than others, but that's just me. As long as I know I can bulk age with kits, I am fine and really appreciate your help
> 
> Thanks!



On the correct trail! Bulk vs bottle aging is simply treating the entire batch to the same condition with respect to oaking, backsweetning, flavoring, blending, etc. After you've done whatever treatments you want, you can certainly bottle and allow to age. Free's up a carboy for more! The only drawback might be a defective cork or two which would affect those bottles


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

Floandgary said:


> On the correct trail! Bulk vs bottle aging is simply treating the entire batch to the same condition with respect to oaking, backsweetning, flavoring, blending, etc. After you've done whatever treatments you want, you can certainly bottle and allow to age. Free's up a carboy for more! The only drawback might be a defective cork or two which would affect those bottles



Thanks!!! Free up the carboy for more!!! I like your style!!!

So far I haven't run into corking issues or anything going bad, luckily....

Trying a Pinot Noir for the 1st time and really going to experiment with flavors....
Excited!!!


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## Floandgary (Jul 27, 2015)

Getting set up to bottle 2014 California Pinot Noir from juice bucket. Ferment totally dry, add 1# dried cherry for 1 month. 11 months in carboy (I have plenty). Yummy! I am also a big fan of decanting or aerating at drinking time. Grapes/Juices from CA should be primo this year after so much drought


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

Floandgary said:


> Getting set up to bottle 2014 California Pinot Noir from juice bucket. Ferment totally dry, add 1# dried cherry for 1 month. 11 months in carboy (I have plenty). Yummy! I am also a big fan of decanting or aerating at drinking time. Grapes/Juices from CA should be primo this year after so much drought



Sounds good - I want to add some pepper corns but not sure if I can use household type pepper corns, and how many of them for 6 gallons? Dried Cherry sounds good! How much of that do you add and when - I heard it all gets done when aging?


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## Boatboy24 (Jul 27, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> Sounds good - I want to add some pepper corns but not sure if I can use household type pepper corns, and how many of them for 6 gallons? Dried Cherry sounds good! How much of that do you add and when - I heard it all gets done when aging?



That Syrah I mentioned earlier with the peppercorns also had dried cherries and blueberries in the primary (3oz of cherries and 4oz of blueberries). I also threw a banana in there. As far as the peppercorns, I used Tellicherry during aging. Same stuff you'd use in the kitchen. IIRC, I had about 20 in 6 gallons. It was way too much. I'd start with 5-10 and test after about 2 weeks.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> That Syrah I mentioned earlier with the peppercorns also had dried cherries and blueberries in the primary (3oz of cherries and 4oz of blueberries). I also threw a banana in there. As far as the peppercorns, I used Tellicherry during aging. Same stuff you'd use in the kitchen. IIRC, I had about 20 in 6 gallons. It was way too much. I'd start with 5-10 and test after about 2 weeks.



OK - I found the tellicherry peppercorns online, but all I could find in the way of dried cherries were ones that say "tart". I already started the wine though, so I guess it is too late for the cherries???


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## roger80465 (Jul 27, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> That Syrah I mentioned earlier with the peppercorns also had dried cherries and blueberries in the primary (3oz of cherries and 4oz of blueberries). I also threw a banana in there. As far as the peppercorns, I used Tellicherry during aging. Same stuff you'd use in the kitchen. IIRC, I had about 20 in 6 gallons. It was way too much. I'd start with 5-10 and test after about 2 weeks.



I did a similar thing with a RJS Australian Shiraz. I added 1 tsp black peppercorns for about 2 weeks and tasted it 3-4 times during that time. I racked off pepper when the flavor was just beyond what I wanted to achieve. It is now about 4 mo in the bottle and the pepper is present but subtle. I'm really happy with the results


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## Boatboy24 (Jul 27, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> OK - I found the tellicherry peppercorns online, but all I could find in the way of dries cherries were ones that say "tart". I already started the wine though, so I guess it is too late for the cherries???



I don't recall off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I didn't use tart cherries.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 27, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> I don't recall off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure I didn't use tart cherries.



That's OK Jim - I'll keep looking for something more along the lines of dried black cherries...I know they are sweet, but don't know what it will do in the secondary fermentation process. It may cloud up the wine???


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## Lovewinemusic (Jul 28, 2015)

Do you treat the fruit or peppercorns prior to introducing to the must? Do you add into, primary or secondary? I've always wanted to try something like this but have been concerned about a mistake/results, especially on premium kit$$. Would it be crazy to try coffee beans or an old leather belt? Totally kidding about the latter!! LOL!


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 28, 2015)

Lovewinemusic said:


> Do you treat the fruit or peppercorns prior to introducing to the must? Do you add into, primary or secondary? I've always wanted to try something like this but have been concerned about a mistake/results, especially on premium kit$$. Would it be crazy to try coffee beans or an old leather belt? Totally kidding about the latter!! LOL!



It's not crazy at all to try coffee beans - I fully intend on adding them to mine, but I always though these things went into the secondary to age with the wine. As for treating? Peppercorns you can use any kind and maybe just a rinse, but I know little about dried cherries and when to add them. I would think fruits would cloud up the secondary, and unless you filter your wine, which I don't, it may be cloudy, but Boatboy24 would know the answers to that...
Jim - are you around for help here???

Hope this helps Lovewinemusic!


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## Boatboy24 (Jul 28, 2015)

Lovewinemusic said:


> Do you treat the fruit or peppercorns prior to introducing to the must? Do you add into, primary or secondary? I've always wanted to try something like this but have been concerned about a mistake/results, especially on premium kit$$. Would it be crazy to try coffee beans or an old leather belt? Totally kidding about the latter!! LOL!



Read through joeswine's thread called "Thinking Outside the Box". All sorts of stuff in there from grapefruit zest to coffee beans, etc. But no, I wouldn't go with an old leather belt. Or shoe. 

Edit: Sorry, that thread is "When good wines gone bad". In it, he talks about thinking outside the box. http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14483


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## Boatboy24 (Jul 28, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> It's not crazy at all to try coffee beans - I fully intend on adding them to mine, but I always though these things went into the secondary to age with the wine. As for treating? Peppercorns you can use any kind and maybe just a rinse, but I know little about dried cherries and when to add them. I would think fruits would cloud up the secondary, and unless you filter your wine, which I don't, it may be cloudy, but Boatboy24 would know the answers to that...
> Jim - are you around for help here???
> 
> Hope this helps Lovewinemusic!



Your wine is going to be cloudy in primary and secondary, so adding fruit at this point should do no/minimal harm. Worst case is it takes a little longer to clear or you get a pectin haze. Both easily fixed.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 28, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> Your wine is going to be cloudy in primary and secondary, so adding fruit at this point should do no/minimal harm. Worst case is it takes a little longer to clear or you get a pectin haze. Both easily fixed.



OK thank you!!! Just trying to enhance this wine to it's fullest!


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## Floandgary (Jul 28, 2015)

I know that introducing fruits to wines can result in some cloudiness, but the other ingredient we all have at our disposal will take care of that,,,,,, TIME. After I've done my post ferment experimenting and racked off the solids, it will sit for a year or so with racking's/k-meta treatment every 2-3 months. Solids WILL precipitate out. In this instance, another advantage of bulk aging, otherwise (unless you filter) you will have sediment in your bottles. There's a whole 'nuther school of thought about filtering too!!


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 28, 2015)

Floandgary said:


> I know that introducing fruits to wines can result in some cloudiness, but the other ingredient we all have at our disposal will take care of that,,,,,, TIME. After I've done my post ferment experimenting and racked off the solids, it will sit for a year or so with racking's/k-meta treatment every 2-3 months. Solids WILL precipitate out. In this instance, another advantage of bulk aging, otherwise (unless you filter) you will have sediment in your bottles. There's a whole 'nuther school of thought about filtering too!!



I appreciate the input! I like the idea of TIME and rackings - I have tasted filtered wines and they just are stripped of their character, imo. I'll be on here from time to time letting ya'll know how things are going. As far as oak, peppercorns and coffee beans, I don't think they will have an effect on clouding in the secondary, but dried cherries will, I think - LOL!


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## Kraffty (Jul 28, 2015)

A suggestion as alternative to dried cherries, that I've used a few times, is black cherry concentrate. I bought mine at the GNC health products store, it's 100% natural juice but incredibly concentrated. You can add an ounce or two to make it as subtle or strong as you like and I didn't have any clouding issues at all. 

Mike


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 28, 2015)

Kraffty said:


> A suggestion as alternative to dried cherries, that I've used a few times, is black cherry concentrate. I bought mine at the GNC health products store, it's 100% natural juice but incredibly concentrated. You can add an ounce or two to make it as subtle or strong as you like and I didn't have any clouding issues at all.
> 
> Mike



Thanks Mike - I have a bottle of that I use every day just for health issues. I think that should have gone in the primary though? It is highly concentrated and I am wondering if it would restart a fermentation in the secondary? I don't know enough about it to know what it will do. I have a 6.5 gallon aging carboy and if that thing starts to "re-ferment" I don't know if it would spill over? Like I said. I don't know. What about all natural cherry extract which already has alcohol in it and definitely won't cloud anything??


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## MarkTX (Jul 28, 2015)

Since they don't build basements in my area, I use the MBR closet for bulk aging. After discovering a loose stopper air lock on an "bulk aging" carboy I opted for used 5 gal SSteel corny kegs. This means finding an argon tank & regulator but once the keg is properly sealed / pressurized the wine is no longer affected by air, light, etc. Argon doesn't carbonate like CO2. Corny kegs are easy to lift, move, store and never break. I use a picnic tapper to fill a bottle every few months which pulls any sediment off the bottom & I get to drink it. The big drawback is 5 gallons of wine in a used corny keg doesn't look impressive like when it is bottled! My thoughts.


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## JoeCal1952 (Jul 30, 2015)

MarkTX said:


> Since they don't build basements in my area, I use the MBR closet for bulk aging. After discovering a loose stopper air lock on an "bulk aging" carboy I opted for used 5 gal SSteel corny kegs. This means finding an argon tank & regulator but once the keg is properly sealed / pressurized the wine is no longer affected by air, light, etc. Argon doesn't carbonate like CO2. Corny kegs are easy to lift, move, store and never break. I use a picnic tapper to fill a bottle every few months which pulls any sediment off the bottom & I get to drink it. The big drawback is 5 gallons of wine in a used corny keg doesn't look impressive like when it is bottled! My thoughts.



Sounds like a good idea for you! Whatever works best!


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