# Wild Grape Wine Questions



## ChuckD (Jan 1, 2022)

I have asked questions about my wild grape wine project on several different threads. Today I was looking for some particular advice I had received and had trouble finding the right post. Since I have more questions (so, so many questions) I thought I would bring it together in one place so I can refer back to it as the wine ages.

First, my previous wine making experience is 10 gallons of apple wine that I made last year to excellent reviews by friends and family. This year, along with the wild grape, I am making a beet, elderberry, and apple. I decided on wild grape because the vines (Vitis riparia) around here had some of the biggest grapes I had seen and some of them were damn near edible! So I picked, manually destemmed, and froze 28lbs.

On 11/28 I put 24.3lbs of frozen grapes in straining bags, put them the in the primary, and added 8 quarts of boiling water with 9.8lbs of sugar. After crushing the grapes with a wine bottle and adding water to bring the volume up to 5 gallons, the SG was 1.062 so I added another 5.2lbs of sugar in 4 quarts of water. The starting SG was 1.114 and the pH was 3.06. I added 1.2g of K-meta and let it sit for 12 hours then added 6t of pectic enzyme and adjusted the pH to 3.15 with a small addition of calcium carb. At 24 hours I added rehydrated Lalvin 71b yeast. I stirred and pushed the bags down 2x per day. On 12/3 I realized I had forgotten the yeast energizer, so I added it at that time (6t). I pulled the seeds and skins on day 7 and manually squeezed out what I could.

I racked the wine on 12/8 when the SG was still 1.014 with a pH of 3.28. at the time it still had some of that that thick and sweet grapey flavor with a harsh alcohol taste. I ended up with 6 gallons. On 12/24 I racked again and made what I hope is an inconsequential error... I reported a hydrometer reading of 1.020 and leading to a suggestion that I try and restart a stuck fermentation, which I did by adding a starter of EC118 on 12/28. Looking back, I think I really was reading 1.002 on the hydrometer! The addition of the EC118 didn't seem to get any active ferment going and today the SG was 1.001. There are only the finest pin-prick bubbles rising in the neck of the carboy.

to-be-continued...


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## ChuckD (Jan 1, 2022)

So, my questions are around taste and aging and oak... I taste the wine just about every time I am manipulating it. A week ago, it still had a very strong grape flavor with what I jokingly described as a "jet fuel" finish. This led to discussions about acetic acid, but I think it's more the harsh taste of new wine and an active fermentation... my apple wines started out the same but mellowed considerably after a few months.

On this site I have come across the term "foxy" tasting so I searched for the term and I'm wondering if that is what I am tasting now. It still has that smell of freshly crushed wild grapes, which is quite strong. Today I took about a half cup of the wine, added a pinch of sugar, and poured it back and forth between two glasses a few times over several hours then tried it again. The harshness was considerably mellowed but it still has that strong smell. There doesn't seem to be any tannin taste at all. 

I think I'm going to add oak while bulk aging. Will this help out? Is there a way to fix the foxy smell? or do I just set it aside until next fall and hope for the best?


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## winemaker81 (Jan 2, 2022)

Some native American grape varieties have that foxy taste. I've had Concord aged in oak that came out very nice. However, nothing you do is going to make it taste like Vinifera. I can make a pleasing wine, but CS and Merlot are not worried about competition.

I'd go light on oak. 28 lbs nets about 2 gallons, so it's heavily diluted to make 6 gallons. Try 1/2 to 1 oz oak cubes for a month or two. IME, over oaking a light bodied wine can produce a sharp oak after-bite.

Before bottling, bench test with glycerin (for body) and a light back sweetening.

Next year, don't add water. You'll get a lot less wine, but it will be fuller bodied.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

Thanks. I’m just hoping to make something drinkable. The recipe I used counseled against a pure wild grape wine because of the high acid. Although mine really didn’t need as much correction as they said it would. Maybe I’ll try a smaller batch next time.

I did buy some spirals. I’ll try a half spiral first and add the other half if it needs more. I’m looking to avoid racking it again so soon.


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## wood1954 (Jan 2, 2022)

Next year try straight grape juice. Also try getting MLF going to help reduce the acid. The only time I made wild grape wine I made it like a port. I kept adding sugar till EC 1118 died I think I got around 18% Abv. after about 4 years it was pretty good.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 2, 2022)

Also cold stabilize. With small batches you can put a gallon in the fridge for a week.

I was thinking of port as well. Could also blend with a low acid juice.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Also cold stabilize. With small batches you can put a gallon in the fridge for a week.
> 
> I was thinking of port as well. Could also blend with a low acid juice.


When would I cold stabilize in the oaking/aging process? And I live in Wisconsin. Right now I could cold stabilize a bulk tank full of wine in the Unheated basement of my woodworking shop! It stays right around 32 degrees.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 2, 2022)

You can cold stabilize any time after fermentation is done. I'd remove oak just to avoid mess.

I lived in upstate NY and cold stabilized on my porch.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> after about 4 years it was pretty good.


. The patience required for wine making is the biggest surprise I have had. I’m used to “my grandmas recipes” that call for bottling and drinking in two months! Of course when someone gives me a bottle they are generally waaaaay to sweet and taste like cough syrup. 

I am not by nature a patient man. This hobby calls for some major changes in my mindset!


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## Jovimaple (Jan 2, 2022)

@ChuckD This is why you make multiple quick drinkers like skeeter pee or dragon blood. Then it's easier to let the wines that benefit from aging do their thing.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

I know! Apparently The beet and elderberry also benefit from extended aging. Looks like my apple will be the only wine I can drink this year! I have been looking at the skeeter pee thread and think it may be my best shot for making something I can drink out on the deck this summer. 

I recently found a great deal on equipment and thought I might unload some… because who need 11 carboys right? Now I’m starting to think I might need more


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> You can cold stabilize any time after fermentation is done. I'd remove oak just to avoid mess.
> 
> I lived in upstate NY and cold stabilized on my porch.


I think I’ll oak first then and wait for some warmer weather. We’re looking at an extended cold spell up here with below zero nights. Temps usually moderate in late February.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 2, 2022)

You may enjoy the Skeeter Pee. Personally I don’t like it as well as my hard lemonade (better than Mike’s). I can post the recipe if you are interested. It uses dried malt extract so is more like a beer.
You may also like the Dragon Blood but even with extra fruit, I find it thin and weak. 
Not trying to discourage you from trying; just a word of warning that Dragon Blood and Skeeter Pee may disappoint.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> . The patience required for wine making is the biggest surprise I have had. I’m used to “my grandmas recipes” that call for bottling and drinking in two months! Of course when someone gives me a bottle they are generally waaaaay to sweet and taste like cough syrup.
> 
> I am not by nature a patient man. This hobby calls for some major changes in my mindset!


The advice to age the wine is good advice -- all wine benefits from aging, some for months, some for years. That said, if you like the way it tastes, drink it. It's yours and no one else has a say in the matter.

To teach yourself patience, split each bath -- 1 case for drinking, 1 case for a year of aging. Bulk age heavier reds and fruits for longer, bulk age whites, lighter reds, and lighter fruits for less time. This gives you drinking wine and aging wine.

Record your impressions each time you open a bottle. Force yourself to pay attention to the wine, how it tastes and smells. Read your notes from first to last to understand how the wine ages and improves.

Will this teach you patience? Darned if I know! But if you stick to splitting batches, you will have wine that has aged a year from bottling, and you will have the opportunity to taste your wines at their best.


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## Vinobeau (Jan 2, 2022)

I've been making Wild Grape wines since 2007. Most of the time I've mixed them with Concords, but in a number of times I've blended them with Cranberry or Tomato. The 2007 batch was made to be a Port and was fortified with Brandy. The Port was made with 8.7 Lbs per gallon, and I haven't tasted it yet! In 2019, I made a one gallon batch with 10 pounds of grapes via Carbonic Maceration. I then made a three gallon second run with those grapes. The CM batch was close to terrible. I bottled 2 bottles of the CM batch to taste in 10 years and blended both batches. The blended batch was pretty good. I then blended the Wild Grape with 2 gallons of Tomato and that turned out. 

I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> You may enjoy the Skeeter Pee. Personally I don’t like it as well as my hard lemonade (better than Mike’s). I can post the recipe if you are interested. It uses dried malt extract so is more like a beer.
> You may also like the Dragon Blood but even with extra fruit, I find it thin and weak.
> Not trying to discourage you from trying; just a word of warning that Dragon Blood and Skeeter Pee may disappoint.


Hello VinesnBines,
Thanks for your input on the Skeeter Pee, I have no idea what it is but I would agree if it is thin & weak I probably wouldn't like it either. A question our your hard lemonade, how long do you let it age? I would be interested in the recipe if you wouldn't mind posting it.
Thanks,
Bernice


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## Vinobeau (Jan 2, 2022)

Well, I got to thinking - went down in the cellar and retrieved a bottle of the Fox Port! Wow, very nice and no Foxy taste. Hopefully, I won't finish the bottle tonight!


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## Jovimaple (Jan 2, 2022)

@SeniorHobby My Skeeter Pee tastes like lemonade with a bite. I ferment a third to a half of the lemon with the water and sugar, but then I add more lemon concentrate to taste. My 2nd batch of dragon blood, I doubled the fruit compared to the original recipe, and it is not a thin wine at all.

Skeeter Pee is currently the favorite of my friends who have tried my wines, and I have had several people ask for more. I plan to make 12 or more gallons this spring. It's nice because it's a quick drinker, and great over ice or chilled on a hot summer day. I tell people it goes with whatever you would choose to pair lemonade with.





__





Original Skeeter Pee Recipe


Skeeter Pee Recipe The original, inexpensive, quick, easy to make, easy to drink, naturally fermented, lemon, hot-weather, thirst quencher. ——————————- For a 5 gallon batch 3 bottles of 32 oz 100% lemon juice (e.g ReaLemon in the green plastic bottles or equivalent) 7 lbs sugar (or 16...




www.winemakingtalk.com





Here's Lon D's website for his original recipe for Skeeter Pee: Skeeter Pee Recipe

There's a whole forum on Skeeter Pee, and Dragon Blood is a variation that builds on the Skeeter Pee process. I tweaked the recipe for SP so I do 3 or 6 gallon batches instead of 5 gallons, and I don't use a yeast slurry - I just use Lalvin EC-1118 that I rehydrate in a cup of water for 15 minutes per Danger Dave's method for Dragon Blood wine.






Dragon Blood: Triple Berry Skeeter Pee


I think I have neglected to add the Dragon Blood Recipe the recipe section, so here it is. PM me if you have any questions. Here's the newest version (v3.0): Please read recipe completely before beginning! "DRAGON BLOOD" *Silver Award winner at the 39th Annual Cellarmasters Amateur...




www.winemakingtalk.com


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> Well, I got to thinking - went down in the cellar and retrieved a bottle of the Fox Port! Wow, very nice and no Foxy taste. Hopefully, I won't finish the bottle tonight!


Better share!!


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

Jovimaple said:


> @SeniorHobby My Skeeter Pee tastes like lemonade with a bite. I ferment a third to a half of the lemon with the water and sugar, but then I add more lemon concentrate to taste. My 2nd batch of dragon blood, I doubled the fruit compared to the original recipe, and it is not a thin wine at all.
> 
> Skeeter Pee is currently the favorite of my friends who have tried my wines, and I have had several people ask for more. I plan to make 12 or more gallons this spring. It's nice because it's a quick drinker, and great over ice or chilled on a hot summer day. I tell people it goes with whatever you would choose to pair lemonade with.
> 
> ...


When you say you tweaked the recipe, are you talking about the Skeeter Pee or Dragon Blood. I would like the recipe for the hard lemonade, if you are willing to share.
Thanks!


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

I remember seeing something about adding cranberry concentrate at the end on the skeeter pee site. That sound good too. I’m not expecting wine… just a light lemonade drink over ice.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> When would I cold stabilize in the oaking/aging process? And I live in Wisconsin. Right now I could cold stabilize a bulk tank full of wine in the Unheated basement of my woodworking shop! It stays right around 32 degrees.


I'm with you on the cold stabilization Chuck, my thermometer showed a nice chilly -22 this morning. I'm in central Minnesota just a little SW of St Cloud. What part of Wisconsin are you from? Rice Guy is from the Madison area if I remember right. I am wondering if there are any central Minnesota wine clubs. Probably need to get a separate post going on that.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

I believe you about the aging. I started my second batch of apple on Election Day last year and bottles it in early May. We had a family reunion in late September where most of it was consumed. Lots of compliments on it but I could taste a little bitter or sharp aftertaste. I had two bottles left and opened one a few days ago. No harsh aftertaste at all! I haven’t been keeping notes but it was a much better wine than what we were drinking even three months ago.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> I'm with you on the cold stabilization Chuck, my thermometer showed a nice chilly -22 this morning. I'm in central Minnesota just a little SW of St Cloud. What part of Wisconsin are you from? Rice Guy is from the Madison area if I remember right. I am wondering if there are any central Minnesota wine clubs. Probably need to get a separate post going on that.


I’m about an hour north of Green Bay. I know there is a wine club in southern Wisconsin that meets around Milwaukee. To my knowledge nothing in north or central WI. I would like to get involved with one too. I find of the hardest things for me is trying to decipher tastes with nothing more than someone’s written description. Tasting lots of homemade wines would help with that.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Some native American grape varieties have that foxy taste. I've had Concord aged in oak that came out very nice. However, nothing you do is going to make it taste like Vinifera. I can make a pleasing wine, but CS and Merlot are not worried about competition.
> 
> I'd go light on oak. 28 lbs nets about 2 gallons, so it's heavily diluted to make 6 gallons. Try 1/2 to 1 oz oak cubes for a month or two. IME, over oaking a light bodied wine can produce a sharp oak after-bite.
> 
> ...





ChuckD said:


> I’m about an hour north of Green Bay. I know there is a wine club in southern Wisconsin that meets around Milwaukee. To my knowledge nothing in north or central WI. I would like to get involved with one too. I find of the hardest things for me is trying to decipher tastes with nothing more than someone’s written description. Tasting lots of homemade wines would help with that.


I get what you are saying as far as the tasting, another opinion is always useful and it is helpful to have someone who is in the winemaking hobby as they might have a better idea of what could be wrong based on the learning that has taken place already. I have not spent a lot of time at county fairs, but I've read that people have submitted wines to be judged at fairs. Next summer I will have to look into that if I can't find a club in our area before then.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 2, 2022)

Jovimaple said:


> @ChuckD This is why you make multiple quick drinkers like skeeter pee or dragon blood. Then it's easier to let the wines that benefit from aging do their thing.





SeniorHobby said:


> Hello VinesnBines,
> Thanks for your input on the Skeeter Pee, I have no idea what it is but I would agree if it is thin & weak I probably wouldn't like it either. A question our your hard lemonade, how long do you let it age? I would be interested in the recipe if you wouldn't mind posting it.
> Thanks,
> Bernice


This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
Hard Lemonade 
12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate 
1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
7 teaspoons yeast nutrient 
3 pounds corn sugar
2 packages of EC1118 or Nottingham yeast 
Potassium Sorbate
Cane sugar
Rehydrate yeast with 1cup of warm water, 1 tablespoon of lemonade concentrate and a bit of yeast nutrient. Let rehydrate for 30 minutes.
For the wort mix the dry malt extract and corn sugar with 2 gallons of boiling water. After sugar is dissolved, remove from heat and add the rest of the yeast nutrient. Add 10 cans of the lemonade concentrate and cold water to make 5 gallons. Once cool, pitch the yeast. I ferment in a car boy with airlock. This is more beer than wine.
I let it ferment until it clears then I back-sweeten. After I rack to a bottling bucket, I add a mix of 4 cups of cane sugar, 2 cans lemonade concentrate, 3 cups of water and 3 1/2 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. You can use up to 8 cups of sugar but I find that too sweet. This is ready to drink on bottling day. I keg mine and don’t bother with the sorbate. You can make a million alternatives. I added a concentrate of hibiscus tea to my last batch. That was marvelous!

I don’t want to start a war over Skeeter Pee and Dragon Blood. I’m just offering an alternative.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.


I read several sources that recommended against too many wild grapes in the mix. I actually went a little high with mine because they were very sweet for wild grapes. I hope the foxy taste disappears. I guess time will tell. I’ll be looking at port recipes for ideas too.

I really like foraging and the idea of wild wines intrigues me! We’re getting a lot of exotic autumn berries (Elaeagnus umbellata) in my area and it has me thinking about trying them too.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

When you say more beer than wine are you talking like the lemon flavored beers everyone has? If so I will pass. Lots of folks love them but I never liked fruity beer. Each to their own I say !


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.


I have seen a lot of country wines blending rhubarb and fruit. Would this work with wild grape to make a rose-like wine? I’m not a fan of straight rhubarb (too plain), but I have access to nearly unlimited quantities of the stuff. I could make a batch and blend it with the grape wine. Before I do anything I think I’ll give it a year of bulk aging though.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
> Hard Lemonade
> 12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
> 1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
> ...


Thanks,
When did you add in the hibiscus tea and not being a tea drinker where did you find the hibiscus tea?


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I have seen a lot of country wines blending rhubarb and fruit. Would this work with wild grape to make a rose-like wine? I’m not a fan of straight rhubarb (too plain), but I have access to nearly unlimited quantities of the stuff. I could make a batch and blend it with the grape wine. Before I do anything I think I’ll give it a year of bulk aging though.


I'm pretty new at it too, I have rhubarb in my freezer waiting till I get familiar enough with the wine making process to try a batch.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> When you say more beer than wine are you talking like the lemon flavored beers everyone has? If so I will pass. Lots of folks love them but I never liked fruity beer. Each to their own I say !


My recipe is a hard lemonade like Mike’s; the process is more like a beer. It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade. It does have malt in the mix but not boiled like a beer. It is similar to Skeeter Pee but I like it more.


SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks,
> When did you add in the hibiscus tea and not being a tea drinker where did you find the hibiscus tea?


I took hibiscus tea bags that I bought at the grocery and made a super strong tea. I recall I used three tea bags in 4 ounces of water. I steeped the tea for 5 minutes or so and added the “tea” to a gallon of my lemonade. I had nearly 6 gallons so I put 5 in my keg and added the hibiscus tea to the extra gallon and bottled that gallon.


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## Jovimaple (Jan 2, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> When you say you tweaked the recipe, are you talking about the Skeeter Pee or Dragon Blood. I would like the recipe for the hard lemonade, if you are willing to share.
> Thanks!


I linked the original Skeeter Pee recipe (skeeterpee.com) as well as the thread here on WMT in my earlier post. That's more of a lemon wine - higher ABV than a hard lemonade. The original recipe is for 5 gallons. If I recall correctly, the original for Dragon Blood is also for 5 gallons. However, at the time I had only 3 gallon carboys, so I just tweaked the measurements a bit so it would be 6 gallons instead of 5. I did that for both SP and DB.


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## ChuckD (Jan 2, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade


Sounds good. I’d like to try it with a mix of concentrated lemon and cranberry. When you list corn sugar is that corn syrup or just white sugar made from corn? Can you pick that up in any grocery store?


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 3, 2022)

To your original post; “foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape, foxy increases with ripening at 1.080 it is low, foxy is fruity/ aromatic.


ChuckD said:


> I have seen a lot of country wines blending rhubarb and fruit. Would this work with wild grape to make a rose-like wine? I’m not a fan of straight rhubarb (too plain), but I have access to nearly unlimited quantities of the stuff. I could make a batch and blend it with the grape wine. Before I do anything I think I’ll give it a year of bulk aging though.


Wine is a balance of flavors, for this year I built long flavor notes into my rhurbarb by adding about 1% tannic crab apple. My rhubarb is mostly straight rhurbarb juice with a high TA around 1% and back sweetened to 1.015. (my rhubarb has won best of show/ water in rhubarb makes it weak) Another source for longer lasting (tannin like) flavors is cranberry, that said concord and cranberry make a good blend.
Clubs, Wausau has a group. ,, Jenny Craig Corkers ? If you call YeaLittleOldWinemakingShop of Wausau they should be able to tell you more about events otherwise I could hunt out a name for juice bucket purchasers from the Madison club. @SeniorHobby LaCrosse (on Mississippi River) has enough folks to have a wine contest and buy juice buckets out of Madison. Minnesota has quite a few Mississippi valley wineries (active vinters), and the extension program from Univ. of Minnesota, ,,, and an on campus winery to help Minnesota residents.


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## ChuckD (Jan 3, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape,


YES! This is what I am experiencing. It’s the aroma that carries it. The taste is not bad, just very simple… it tastes like Welches grape juice with alcohol to me. I’m just going to let it ride for a year or more. Hopefully oak and age will improve it. Question… if You’re aging a wine for a few years what is the ratio of bulk aging to bottle aging?

When you do pure rhubarb do you juice it or press it?

And thanks. I’ll look them up. It would be nice to taste some other wines and compare notes (for me ask questions mainly)


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## VinesnBines (Jan 3, 2022)

Corn sugar is a loose powdered sugar that you need to buy from a beer and wine supply store. Corn syrup may be the liquid version but I’m not certain.


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## JustJoe (Jan 3, 2022)

I have been making wine from wild grapes for several years with very good results. I use Lalvin 71b because it converts a significant amount of the malic acid to milder lactic acid much like the MLF process. The taste of the wine is very good but if you are defining good as 'how close is it to a good cabernet?' you will be disappointed. Some people have told me they prefer the wild grape wine over the cabernets. It is a different wine just as rhubarb or blackberry or elderberry make different wines and they are all very good wines when they are made well.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 3, 2022)

My rhubarb process is to freeze 1/2 inch dice for at least a week > then thaw and press > refreeze the juice in square cubitainers till ready with a carboy. ‘21 crop I did several yeast (ex Maurivin B) in a test to remove TA.


ChuckD said:


> *it tastes like Welches grape juice with alcohol . . . Hopefully oak and age will improve it. Question… if You’re aging a wine for a few years what is the ratio of bulk aging to bottle aging?
> *When you do pure rhubarb do you juice it or press it?


_OPINION; foxy is a pleasing aroma which balances out low aroma fruit as elderberry or cranberry._ For where you are I would look for cranberry from Three Lakes or Brigadoon or VonSteil wineries and and try ratios as 25%/ 50%/ 75% to see how the flavor balance changes. 
Age will add complexity, ,,, at low levels acetaldehyde (oxidized ethanol) reminds me of dried apricots sharp notes, ,,, however if you start in that direction it builds to higher levels so I fight oxygen. Age seems to decrease the TA some via complexes between acids and alcohol which again changes the flavor profile. Age is an excellent tool if you are dealing with tannic notes and want them to soften (complex into larger molecules that fall out). From what you have posted it doesn’t sound like you are dealing with tannins.
I vote for chilling to drop potassium bitartrates out. One of the club members is a garage fermentor which means his carboys survive 28F and if you have a PET carboy I could see doing freezer temperatures. As a new wine maker I would not vote for tying up a carboy for two years, folks dealing with small/ astringent tannin molecules as choke cherry will age in the bottle. ,,,,, specifically to your question of the rate in bulk age versus bottle age, there are so many “it depends on” that I don’t think there is a straight answer.


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## ChuckD (Jan 3, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> _OPINION; foxy is a pleasing aroma which balances out low aroma fruit as elderberry or cranberry._ For where you are I would look for cranberry from Three Lakes or Brigadoon or VonSteil wineries


Yes again! When I pull a little out of the carboy for measurements it smells very good but when you stick your nose in the glass it’s too much! Alone or in a blend I’m sure I’ll be able to make something good out of this.

We like the wines from VonSteil. I joke to my wife that between her and the friends she has introduced to Three Lakes, when we go for a visit I expect to see at least a tasting room named in her honor . In fact my question about rhubarb wine is due to her tasting their strawberry rhubarb the other day. I have been tasked with making strawberry rhubarb and a blackberry wine… her Three Lakes favorite


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## winemaker81 (Jan 3, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Question… if You’re aging a wine for a few years what is the ratio of bulk aging to bottle aging?


Some of our members bulk age up to 2 years, especially in barrels.

If you are aging in carboys or other non-oak containers? I don't see an advantage for aging longer than 12 months (which doesn't mean someone won't point one out). Wines age faster in the bottle, so it makes sense to bottle just before the next year's wine is ready for the carboy. For barrels, I bottle just before the new wine is ready for the barrel, as barrels must be kept full, either wine or a holding solution.


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## ChuckD (Jan 3, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> I vote for chilling to drop potassium bitartrates out. One of the club members is a garage fermentor which means his carboys survive 28F and if you have a PET carboy I could see doing freezer temperatures.




I have two of these. Would that work for cold crashing in freezing weather?


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## winemaker81 (Jan 3, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I have two of these. Would that work for cold crashing in freezing weather?


That should work fine.

Personally, don't let the wine freeze, as that damages it. The freezing point of wine is not a constant, as it depends on ABV and other constituents. I advise against letting the wine drop below 30 F. When cold stabilizing, I like 32-35, but anything under 40 F is sufficient.

I've had crystals drop during storage in the upper 50's F.


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## Raptor99 (Jan 3, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
> Hard Lemonade
> 12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
> 1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
> ...



Thanks for sharing your recipe. I don't brew beer, so I have some questions:
1. What does the malt extract add?
2. How is the flavor affected by using corn sugar vs. table sugar?
3. Do you carbonate it?


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## VinesnBines (Jan 3, 2022)

I do carbonate in a keg. If you try to bottle carb you have to keep a watch on the carbonation level and then pasteurize the capped bottles in boiling water. I’ve never tried that and think it too much trouble. If I bottle, I bottle it still.
I’m not sure what the malt and corn sugar add other than a flavor profile that is different than Skeeter Pee which uses all cane sugar. Skeeter Pee is a lemon wine and my recipe is a maltier hard lemonade. It tastes a lot like Mikes Hard Lemonade and that’s my best explanation.


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## Raptor99 (Jan 3, 2022)

Thanks, I may have to try it with malt and corn sugar. Can anyone else tell me the flavor difference between corn sugar and cane sugar?

I don't have a keg, so I bottle carbonate.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 3, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> My recipe is a hard lemonade like Mike’s; the process is more like a beer. It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade. It does have malt in the mix but not boiled like a beer. It is similar to Skeeter Pee but I like it more.
> 
> I took hibiscus tea bags that I bought at the grocery and made a super strong tea. I recall I used three tea bags in 4 ounces of water. I steeped the tea for 5 minutes or so and added the “tea” to a gallon of my lemonade. I had nearly 6 gallons so I put 5 in my keg and added the hibiscus tea to the extra gallon and bottled that gallon.


Thanks VinesnBines for the recipe, I think I will try that one!


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## ChuckD (Jan 3, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> My recipe is a hard lemonade like Mike’s; the process is more like a beer. It is not a shandy or fruit beer but genuine hard lemonade.


Thanks. I’ll definitely give this a try. I think I’ll split it at the end and try half lemon and half cranberry.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 3, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> To your original post; “foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape, foxy increases with ripening at 1.080 it is low, foxy is fruity/ aromatic.
> 
> Wine is a balance of flavors, for this year I built long flavor notes into my rhurbarb by adding about 1% tannic crab apple. My rhubarb is mostly straight rhurbarb juice with a high TA around 1% and back sweetened to 1.015. (my rhubarb has won best of show/ water in rhubarb makes it weak) Another source for longer lasting (tannin like) flavors is cranberry, that said concord and cranberry make a good blend.
> Clubs, Wausau has a group. ,, Jenny Craig Corkers ? If you call YeaLittleOldWinemakingShop of Wausau they should be able to tell you more about events otherwise I could hunt out a name for juice bucket purchasers from the Madison club. @SeniorHobby LaCrosse (on Mississippi River) has enough folks to have a wine contest and buy juice buckets out of Madison. Minnesota has quite a few Mississippi valley wineries (active vinters), and the extension program from Univ. of Minnesota, ,,, and an on campus winery to help Minnesota residents.


Thanks Dave, I have thought the same thing about the wild grape wine, I don't like the smell, but the wine tastes fine. So do you think if I ferment a batch of cranberry wine & blend that it would loose the foxy smell.


JustJoe said:


> I have been making wine from wild grapes for several years with very good results. I use Lalvin 71b because it converts a significant amount of the malic acid to milder lactic acid much like the MLF process. The taste of the wine is very good but if you are defining good as 'how close is it to a good cabernet?' you will be disappointed. Some people have told me they prefer the wild grape wine over the cabernets. It is a different wine just as rhubarb or blackberry or elderberry make different wines and they are all very good wines when they are made well.
> Thanks Joe for the response, I did use the Lalvin 71b yeast so I hope my wine will turn out! It is still in the early stages of clearing so in time I will know.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 3, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> Thanks, I may have to try it with malt and corn sugar. Can anyone else tell me the flavor difference between corn sugar and cane sugar?
> 
> I don't have a keg, so I bottle carbonate.


Ok, newbie here, what is the process to carbonate?


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 3, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> To your original post; “foxy“ is more of an aroma than a taste, it is the smell of really really ripe concord or niagara grape, foxy increases with ripening at 1.080 it is low, foxy is fruity/ aromatic.
> 
> Wine is a balance of flavors, for this year I built long flavor notes into my rhurbarb by adding about 1% tannic crab apple. My rhubarb is mostly straight rhurbarb juice with a high TA around 1% and back sweetened to 1.015. (my rhubarb has won best of show/ water in rhubarb makes it weak) Another source for longer lasting (tannin like) flavors is cranberry, that said concord and cranberry make a good blend.
> Clubs, Wausau has a group. ,, Jenny Craig Corkers ? If you call YeaLittleOldWinemakingShop of Wausau they should be able to tell you more about events otherwise I could hunt out a name for juice bucket purchasers from the Madison club. @SeniorHobby LaCrosse (on Mississippi River) has enough folks to have a wine contest and buy juice buckets out of Madison. Minnesota has quite a few Mississippi valley wineries (active vinters), and the extension program from Univ. of Minnesota, ,,, and an on campus winery to help Minnesota residents.


Thanks Rice Guy for the help again, I would like to find something a little West of the Twin Cities metro regarding a wine club location. I would like to avoid driving the two hours and fighting the traffic if I could. Might have to if I strike out in my area.


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## Raptor99 (Jan 3, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Ok, newbie here, what is the process to carbonate?



I like my hard ciders sweetened *and *carbonated. I am aware of three ways to achieve that:

stabilze and sweeten, then carbonate in a keg
sweeten without stabilization, then pasteurize when the carbonation level is right
use a non-fermentable sweetener and bottle carbonate
I use #3 because I don't have a keg and it seems simplest to me. Before bottling, I sweeten with erythritol (Swerve brand) and add the appropriate amount of sugar for carbonation. This is "bottle carbonation" because the fermentation after bottling provides the CO2 for carbonation. You need to add the right amount of sugar, because if you add too much you will end up with "bottle bombs."


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 3, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> My rhubarb process is to freeze 1/2 inch dice for at least a week > then thaw and press > refreeze the juice in square cubitainers till ready with a carboy. ‘21 crop I did several yeast (ex Maurivin B) in a test to remove TA.
> 
> _OPINION; foxy is a pleasing aroma which balances out low aroma fruit as elderberry or cranberry._ For where you are I would look for cranberry from Three Lakes or Brigadoon or VonSteil wineries and and try ratios as 25%/ 50%/ 75% to see how the flavor balance changes.
> Age will add complexity, ,,, at low levels acetaldehyde (oxidized ethanol) reminds me of dried apricots sharp notes, ,,, however if you start in that direction it builds to higher levels so I fight oxygen. Age seems to decrease the TA some via complexes between acids and alcohol which again changes the flavor profile. Age is an excellent tool if you are dealing with tannic notes and want them to soften (complex into larger molecules that fall out). From what you have posted it doesn’t sound like you are dealing with tannins.
> I vote for chilling to drop potassium bitartrates out. One of the club members is a garage fermentor which means his carboys survive 28F and if you have a PET carboy I could see doing freezer temperatures. As a new wine maker I would not vote for tying up a carboy for two years, folks dealing with small/ astringent tannin molecules as choke cherry will age in the bottle. ,,,,, specifically to your question of the rate in bulk age versus bottle age, there are so many “it depends on” that I don’t think there is a straight answer.


Hi Rice Guy, I am assuming that you are suggesting buying a cranberry wine and blending his wild grape with it? As I am from Minnesota and we are not into the cranberry growing as Wisconsin area is, have you ever made cranberry wine from berries then blending?
Thanks!
Bernice


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 3, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> I like my hard ciders sweetened *and *carbonated. I am aware of three ways to achieve that:
> 
> stabilze and sweeten, then carbonate in a keg
> sweeten without stabilization, then pasteurize when the carbonation level is right
> ...


Ok, a little more work than I thought. How is the flavor if you don't do the carbonation thing? Also, are there charts to know how much sugar to add? Not interested in blowing up bottles and making a mess of things!


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 3, 2022)

The aromatic notes are easy to push out of a wine by fermenting closer to 75 or 80F. ,,,,,_ or if running a vacuum concentrator on Niagara grape tossing the aroma fraction from the condenser ,_ ,,, the question then is what do you put in for aromatics? do you run cranberry in a primary at 60F and mix with the high temp grape that you blew the aroma off of?
I happen to like the foxy aroma so I let it in the wine but dilute it a bit with less aromatic juice. For guessing a target ratio I will bake pies with different fruit levels, ,,,  yum! and sometimes the kids turn up their nose  but its a lot better than waiting a year to taste the concept in a finished wine.


SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks Dave, I have thought the same thing about the wild grape wine, I don't like the smell, but the wine tastes fine. So do you think if I ferment a batch of cranberry wine & blend that it would loose the foxy smell.


edit ~ I have access to cranberry juice either as freshly pressed from someone who drove up north or as a 32 oz concentrate at the store.
FYI hard apple cider folks have the priming sugar down to a formula


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## Raptor99 (Jan 3, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Ok, a little more work than I thought. How is the flavor if you don't do the carbonation thing? Also, are there charts to know how much sugar to add? Not interested in blowing up bottles and making a mess of things!



Here is a calculator: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend It is for beer, but works as well for cider and mead. Another one is here: Homebrew Priming Sugar Calculator. One complication is how much CO2 is already dissolved in the wine. The first calculator above makes a certain assumption based on temperature, but if you vacuum degas you might have less starting CO2. That is something I am currently trying to figure out.


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## wood1954 (Jan 4, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> When would I cold stabilize in the oaking/aging process? And I live in Wisconsin. Right now I could cold stabilize a bulk tank full of wine in the Unheated basement of my woodworking shop! It stays right around 32 degrees.


Make sure it stays above about 25, after enough time it will drop a lot of acid.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 4, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> How is the flavor if you don't do the carbonation thing?


SeniorHobby; still cider and lemonade are just as tasty uncarbonated. Nether one carbonated will hold a head like a beer and neither contain hops or heavy amounts of malt so they don't have a "flat" taste. Though the flat taste of beer is a trained taste. Think the difference in still wine and sparkling wine; still flavored water and sparkling water. 
I only carbonate cider and lemonade in my keg. I didn't carbonate either until I got a keg and regulator. Another "cheat" method is to add a carbonated drink, ginger ale, Sprite, Mello Yellow, Mt Dew. I wonder if a carbonated soft drink machine would work? Anyone tried? Maybe that is in the wine carbonation thread.

Sorry to hijack but we got into the quick fement/fast drink discussion.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 4, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> Here is a calculator: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend It is for beer, but works as well for cider and mead. Another one is here: Homebrew Priming Sugar Calculator. One complication is how much CO2 is already dissolved in the wine. The first calculator above makes a certain assumption based on temperature, but if you vacuum degas you might have less starting CO2. That is something I am currently trying to figure out.


Thanks Raptor99! I will have to give it a try, still trying to understand the whole CO2 thing in wines, I also do not have a method to degas my wines so will have to do some research yet.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 4, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> SeniorHobby; still cider and lemonade are just as tasty uncarbonated. Nether one carbonated will hold a head like a beer and neither contain hops or heavy amounts of malt so they don't have a "flat" taste. Though the flat taste of beer is a trained taste. Think the difference in still wine and sparkling wine; still flavored water and sparkling water.
> I only carbonate cider and lemonade in my keg. I didn't carbonate either until I got a keg and regulator. Another "cheat" method is to add a carbonated drink, ginger ale, Sprite, Mello Yellow, Mt Dew. I wonder if a carbonated soft drink machine would work? Anyone tried? Maybe that is in the wine carbonation thread.
> 
> Sorry to hijack but we got into the quick fement/fast drink discussion.


No problem with the hijack VinesnBines, I'll take all the information I can get. I was a little concerned how soon I would try the recipe without knowing much about the carbonation thing, but glad to know that it will work either way. I am going to have to try it and down the road can looking into the carbonation thing.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 4, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I've been making Wild Grape wines since 2007. Most of the time I've mixed them with Concords, but in a number of times I've blended them with Cranberry or Tomato. The 2007 batch was made to be a Port and was fortified with Brandy. The Port was made with 8.7 Lbs per gallon, and I haven't tasted it yet! In 2019, I made a one gallon batch with 10 pounds of grapes via Carbonic Maceration. I then made a three gallon second run with those grapes. The CM batch was close to terrible. I bottled 2 bottles of the CM batch to taste in 10 years and blended both batches. The blended batch was pretty good. I then blended the Wild Grape with 2 gallons of Tomato and that turned out.
> 
> I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.


Hello Vinobeau, 
This might be taboo, but is it out of line to used frozen cranberry concentrate to mix with the fermented wild grape wine post ferment to help with the foxy smell / improve taste?


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## ChuckD (Jan 4, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Sorry to hijack but we got into the quick fement/fast drink discussion.


No problem. Digression points are a bonus! And you gave me a new recipe to try. 

besides, If I were to complain about hi jacking a post I expect the heavens would open up and strike me dead.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 4, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> And you gave me a new recipe to try.


I've tried limeade but the lemonade is still my favorite. We drank 5 gallons in a hurry last summer. I'm thinking of starting a new batch when my IPA keg kicks. Actually it a toss up between another IPA and the lemonade. Of course I could do both and just bottle the lemonade. Choices!


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## winemaker81 (Jan 4, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> This might be taboo, but is it out of line to used frozen cranberry concentrate to mix with the fermented wild grape wine post ferment to help with the foxy smell / improve taste?


Nothing is taboo -- you can do anything you want! [Granted, some ideas are not _good _ideas ...]

One of the recommended tips for backsweetening is to use frozen concentrate to reduce the amount the wine is diluted. Check that you like the flavor of the concentrate first, and bench test with a small amount of wine & concentrate to ensure it is going to work out to your satisfaction.

@VinesnBines' idea of using carbonated water is a good one. You could also use a sparkling wine, such as Prosecco.

To carbonate beer I use 1/2 to 3/4 cup sugar in 5 gallons, typically 2/3 cup. You can also purchase carbonation drops -- the ones I'm familiar with use 1 drop for 12 oz liquid, so a 750 ml champagne bottle uses 2.

*Important:* Use only bottles that are designed to handle pressure! Beer and champagne bottles are best, and you need a bottle capper. Do not use screwcap bottles, as you can produce a grenade.

For dry wines, it is easy -- just prime and cap. But to maintain sweetness? To pasteurize a bottle in the midst of carbonation, you need to raise the temperature to 140 F to kill the yeast. However, I have NO idea how you'd figure out the remaining sugar is at a good point. Open a bottle to test it? You could end up opening a lot of bottles before you get it right. Or is there an answer here I'm missing?

If you use a non-fermentable sweetener, bench test first to ensure you like the flavor. If that doesn't work, some type of kegging system is probably the best choice.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 4, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> However, I have NO idea how you'd figure out the remaining sugar is at a good point. Open a bottle to test it? You could end up opening a lot of bottles before you get it right. Or is there an answer here I'm missing?


The posts I have read (not tested) is to fill a plastic water bottle or soft drink (pop) bottle with your "brew". Every couple days squeeze the bottle and when it seems firm, you have reached the proper level of carbonation. Most likely a couple weeks. 

I've struggled with carbonation in bottles. Early in brewing, I did pretty fair with bottle carbonation. Lately not so well. I think I have gotten lazy.


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## Vinobeau (Jan 10, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Hello Vinobeau,
> This might be taboo, but is it out of line to used frozen cranberry concentrate to mix with the fermented wild grape wine post ferment to help with the foxy smell / improve taste?


It wouldn't bother me. I think its a good idea as long as you add Sorbate before. Depending on how I made the last batch of Cranberry, I will make a second run and use them for different blending. I may add some to a foxy grape wine or even blend them with the original Cranberry that might be too strong tasting. Sometimes, although not too often, the second run turns out drinkable by itself. I've blended second runs of Cranberry & Elderberry, also. Frozen Concord concentrate would work, also.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 10, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> It wouldn't bother me. I think its a good idea as long as you add Sorbate before. Depending on how I made the last batch of Cranberry, I will make a second run and use them for different blending. I may add some to a foxy grape wine or even blend them with the original Cranberry that might be too strong tasting. Sometimes, although not too often, the second run turns out drinkable by itself. I've blended second runs of Cranberry & Elderberry, also. Frozen Concord concentrate would work, also.


Thanks, I think I will try that. I checked in one local store and they only carry cranberry juice mixed with apple and apple is the lead ingredient on the list. Would you mix it like you would normally drink it and then add to the wine? At what concentration? I'm told that wild grape wine is acidic and also cranberry is acidic, just curious, how do they go together to make a better tasting wine, you would think that it would turn out even more astringent?


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## Vinobeau (Jan 10, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks, I think I will try that. I checked in one local store and they only carry cranberry juice mixed with apple and apple is the lead ingredient on the list. Would you mix it like you would normally drink it and then add to the wine? At what concentration? I'm told that wild grape wine is acidic and also cranberry is acidic, just curious, how do they go together to make a better tasting wine, you would think that it would turn out even more astringent?


I would simply add the can of concentrate with out any water, that will give you a better concentration of the flavor. I don't believe that the Wild Grape wine improves the flavor of the Cranberry, but visa versa. I solve any excess astringency by back sweetening.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 10, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I would simply add the can of concentrate with out any water, that will give you a better concentration of the flavor. I don't believe that the Wild Grape wine improves the flavor of the Cranberry, but visa versa. I solve any excess astringency by back sweetening.


I talked to Rice Guy and he said I could always add the juice after bottling. I'm not sure if I don't have a good wine already as I just threw the grapes, sugar and yeast together, didn't worry about pH or TA. This wine was started last fall, sitting in a carboy to this day. Had it in my laundry room, it gets light, vibration from the washer. Who knows? It has a strong flavor, but not sure if its the foxy flavor or oxidation.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 10, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> didn't worry about pH or TA


In 40 years of winemaking, I have not worried about either. I use pH test strips to determine if I'm in a good range, and use my taste buds to make adjustments. Typically my taste buds will tell me what I need to know.

I don't have a problem with testing. If it helps folks, cool.



SeniorHobby said:


> I'm not sure if I don't have a good wine already


Do you like the taste? If so, don't mess with it. Trust yourself.


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## Vinobeau (Jan 11, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> I talked to Rice Guy and he said I could always add the juice after bottling. I'm not sure if I don't have a good wine already as I just threw the grapes, sugar and yeast together, didn't worry about pH or TA. This wine was started last fall, sitting in a carboy to this day. Had it in my laundry room, it gets light, vibration from the washer. Who knows? It has a strong flavor, but not sure if its the foxy flavor or oxidation.


Absolutly, its your call.


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## SeniorHobby (Jan 11, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> In 40 years of winemaking, I have not worried about either. I use pH test strips to determine if I'm in a good range, and use my taste buds to make adjustments. Typically my taste buds will tell me what I need to know.
> 
> I don't have a problem with testing. If it helps folks, cool.
> 
> ...


It is strong tasting, I have added sugar to a glass and it is tolerable. Do you think it is wise to bottle without being balanced? Probably need to add a meta to prevent explosions / spoilage?


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## winemaker81 (Jan 11, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> It is strong tasting, I have added sugar to a glass and it is tolerable. Do you think it is wise to bottle without being balanced? Probably need to add a meta to prevent explosions / spoilage?


I would not bottle until I was happy with the wine. While you can adjust the wine, bottle-by-bottle as you use it, it's more efficient to fix the carboy.

Keep in mind this wine is young. Leave it in the carboy, as it can use more aging, and this gives you time to determine what you want to do. Don't be in a rush.

Another flavoring option is cherry concentrate. It has a fairly strong flavor and won't jack up the acid.

If you backsweeten, you must add sorbate + K-meta, else you will produce mini-volcanoes.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 11, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> In 40 years of winemaking, I have not worried about either. I use pH test strips to determine if I'm in a good range, and use my taste buds to make adjustments. Typically my taste buds will tell me what I need to know.


I didn't test TA with a couple batches recently. The PH of the pumpkin was 3.47 and the PH of the elderberry/Chelois was 2.90. About 3/4 way through primary, the pumpkin was super tart and the Elder/grape was less so. They both evened out at the end of primary but I'm sure the TA was the culprit. We'll see what takes place.



winemaker81 said:


> I would not bottle until I was happy with the wine. While you can adjust the wine, bottle-by-bottle as you use it, it's more efficient to fix the carboy.


Really good advice. Though sometimes I have to bottle because I'm never real happy (banana, coffee). In those instances others have been happy with the wine. I decided I just didn't like either one.

Now to figure out what to do with that fig batch that seems to have a bad case of VA. I may have a nice cooking vinegar, I hate I wasted the figs.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 2, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I've been making Wild Grape wines since 2007. Most of the time I've mixed them with Concords, but in a number of times I've blended them with Cranberry or Tomato. The 2007 batch was made to be a Port and was fortified with Brandy. The Port was made with 8.7 Lbs per gallon, and I haven't tasted it yet! In 2019, I made a one gallon batch with 10 pounds of grapes via Carbonic Maceration. I then made a three gallon second run with those grapes. The CM batch was close to terrible. I bottled 2 bottles of the CM batch to taste in 10 years and blended both batches. The blended batch was pretty good. I then blended the Wild Grape with 2 gallons of Tomato and that turned out.
> 
> I will stick to only using about 2 - 3 pounds of Wild Grapes per gallon and blending with a 2nd run of Cranberry.


Hello Vinobeau,
Fellow wild grape member here. I was reading your post about the Carbonic Maceration. That sounds very interesting. I looked up what it meant and was curious how you ferment with CO2 by itself. I did read that some have done it in a plastic bag with dry ice. Without being a professional winery, I was wondering what home winemakers do to make this happen? in the above posts it sounds like there are a few methods to ferment the wild grapes.
Thanks,
Senior Hobby


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 2, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
> Hard Lemonade
> 12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
> 1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
> ...


Hello VinesnBines,
I started a batch of the Mike's Hard Lemonade today! I'm wondering about the bottling though. I don't have a bottling bucket. Just wondering if this needs to be bottled or can I leave it in a carboy? Do we need to worry about head space and CO2 spoilage. If I bottle, the calcium carbonate should take care of any secondary ferment, right? I taste tested the mix before I put it in the carboy and I like it already!
Thanks,
Senior Hobby


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 2, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> I like my hard ciders sweetened *and *carbonated. I am aware of three ways to achieve that:
> 
> stabilze and sweeten, then carbonate in a keg
> sweeten without stabilization, then pasteurize when the carbonation level is right
> ...


Hi Raptor99,
I just started my Mike's Hard Lemonade today. Reading your above #3 method still has me a little concerned. How do I know how much sugar is the right amount? Also the statement bottle carbonate, how do you exactly do that?
Is it out of the question to leave it in a carboy?
Thanks,
Senior Hobby


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## Raptor99 (Feb 2, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Hi Raptor99,
> I just started my Mike's Hard Lemonade today. Reading your above #3 method still has me a little concerned. How do I know how much sugar is the right amount? Also the statement bottle carbonate, how do you exactly do that?
> Is it out of the question to leave it in a carboy?
> Thanks,
> Senior Hobby



You can leave it in the carboy and drink it fairly quickly, or put it in the fridge and not bottle it at all. In that case it won't be carbonated. You should only bottle carbonate in bottles that are designed to withstand the pressure of carbonation (beer or champaign bottles). If you want to carbonate it you need to use one of the methods in the post you quoted above.

The method I use is this:
1. Make sure that the fermentation is completely finished. This is important so that you don't create "bottle bombs."
2. Rack the cider or lemonade into a sanitized carboy or bucket with enough free room for stirring
2. Add the right amount of non-fermentable sweetener and priming sugar (see below), and mix thoroughly. I usually dissolve the sugar first in a small amount of boiling water so that it is easier to mix in. I let it cool before adding it to my cider.
3. Bottle in beer bottles with crown caps.
4. Wait 2-3 weeks for the renewed fermentation to carbonate the contents of the bottles. If the room is cold then it might take longer.

As for the amounts:

1) Sweetener (I use Swerve brand erythritol): Do bench testing by adding some sweetener a little bit at a time to a small sample. When the sweetness is about right, calculate how much to add to your entire batch.

2) Priming sugar: You can use an online calculator to determine how much to add. Here is one: Beer Priming Sugar Calculator | Brewer's Friend. By experimentation I have determined that 2.5 Tbls. per gallon is about right for my preferred amount of carbonation.

If fermentation is not finished, or you add too much priming sugar, your bottles may leak or explode. The first few times it is good to open a bottle after about 2 weeks. If it gushes out like a fountain you should put the rest of the bottles in the fridge until you consume them to avoid explosions.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 3, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> You can leave it in the carboy and drink it fairly quickly, or put it in the fridge and not bottle it at all. In that case it won't be carbonated. You should only bottle carbonate in bottles that are designed to withstand the pressure of carbonation (beer or champaign bottles). If you want to carbonate it you need to use one of the methods in the post you quoted above.
> 
> The method I use is this:
> 1. Make sure that the fermentation is completely finished. This is important so that you don't create "bottle bombs."
> ...


Thanks Raptor99!
It sounds like an interesting project. I do have a few champaign bottles and a few beer bottles to try it with. I will have to get the correct sugar and crown caps. Good to know with trying it after two weeks! I will do a small batch and see how it goes before jumping in too deep. I would imagine that I need a special tool to do the capping?


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## Raptor99 (Feb 3, 2022)

This is the capping tool I use: https://www.amazon.com/Ferrari-LDC-4016-Bottle-Capper/dp/B001D6KGTK/

Champaign bottles take a different type of cork and a different tool than wine bottles. Some but not all champaign bottles will take the same crown caps as beer bottles.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 3, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> This is the capping tool I use: https://www.amazon.com/Ferrari-LDC-4016-Bottle-Capper/dp/B001D6KGTK/
> 
> Champaign bottles take a different type of cork and a different tool than wine bottles. Some but not all champaign bottles will take the same crown caps as beer bottles.


I was just shopping and looked at that. So you use mainly beer bottles if the champaign bottles use different caps.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 3, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> I was just shopping and looked at that. So you use mainly beer bottles if the champaign bottles use different caps.


Any preference on type of caps to use?
Thanks!


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## Raptor99 (Feb 3, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Any preference on type of caps to use?
> Thanks!



I haven't used champaign bottles (yet), but I got some 22 oz beer bottles that I use for a "family size" serving of cider. I use caps like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZSEH8VW. If you have Craig's List in your area, you could watch it for a good deal on empty beer botles.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 3, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Hello VinesnBines,
> I started a batch of the Mike's Hard Lemonade today! I'm wondering about the bottling though. I don't have a bottling bucket. Just wondering if this needs to be bottled or can I leave it in a carboy? Do we need to worry about head space and CO2 spoilage. If I bottle, the calcium carbonate should take care of any secondary ferment, right? I taste tested the mix before I put it in the carboy and I like it already!
> Thanks,
> Senior Hobby


If you choose to bottle, you should either use potassium sorbate or plan to watch the carbonation level as raptor99 says and stash in the bottles in the refrigerator before they start to explode and they will since you back sweeten. Since it will be finished in a short time and ready to bottle or drink, you don’t need to bother with headspace. You can bottle without a bottling bucket. Just rack to a bucket and use a cup and funnel to fill bottles.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 3, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> I was just shopping and looked at that. So you use mainly beer bottles if the champaign bottles use different caps.


Sparkling wine made using *methode champenoise* have bottles that can be crown capped, as that is part of the process. The "mushroom" shaped cork is the final bottling; a crown cap is used prior to that. Note that not all crown caps are the same size; most fit the common size used by American non-twist-off beer.



SeniorHobby said:


> Any preference on type of caps to use?


Whatever caps sold by your LHBS should be fine.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 3, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> I haven't used champaign bottles (yet), but I got some 22 oz beer bottles that I use for a "family size" serving of cider. I use caps like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZSEH8VW. If you have Craig's List in your area, you could watch it for a good deal on empty beer botles.


Thanks Raptor99,
The recipe didn't really give a timeline on the fermenting process, just said till it clears, any ideas of how long that might take?


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 3, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> If you choose to bottle, you should either use potassium sorbate or plan to watch the carbonation level as raptor99 says and stash in the bottles in the refrigerator before they start to explode and they will since you back sweeten. Since it will be finished in a short time and ready to bottle or drink, you don’t need to bother with headspace. You can bottle without a bottling bucket. Just rack to a bucket and use a cup and funnel to fill bottles.


Thanks VinesnBines!


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 3, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Sparkling wine made using *methode champenoise* have bottles that can be crown capped, as that is part of the process. The "mushroom" shaped cork is the final bottling; a crown cap is used prior to that. Note that not all crown caps are the same size; most fit the common size used by American non-twist-off beer.
> 
> 
> Whatever caps sold by your LHBS should be fine.


Thanks winemaker81!
I will have to look at the specs on the caps to make sure I get the right type!


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## Raptor99 (Feb 4, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks Raptor99,
> The recipe didn't really give a timeline on the fermenting process, just said till it clears, any ideas of how long that might take?



"Until it clears" can vary a lot depending on the type of the fruit, effectiveness of the pectic enzyme, etc. It could be from 2 months to over a year. Patience is the key ingredient for clearing.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 4, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> "Until it clears" can vary a lot depending on the type of the fruit, effectiveness of the pectic enzyme, etc. It could be from 2 months to over a year. Patience is the key ingredient for clearing.


I have just made a Skeeter Pee recipe with a hard cider twist.


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## Raptor99 (Feb 4, 2022)

Sometimes my hard cider takes 5-6 months to clear. I don't add any chemicals to clear it, so I just wait for it to clear on its own.

On the other hand, if you like how it tastes there's nothing wrong with bottling and drinking it before it is completely clear. It's mostly a cosmetic issue. And if you bottle carbonate, there will be a small amount of sediment in each bottle caused by the fermentation of the priming sugar.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 4, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> Sometimes my hard cider takes 5-6 months to clear. I don't add any chemicals to clear it, so I just wait for it to clear on its own.
> 
> On the other hand, if you like how it tastes there's nothing wrong with bottling and drinking it before it is completely clear. It's mostly a cosmetic issue. And if you bottle carbonate, there will be a small amount of sediment in each bottle caused by the fermentation of the priming sugar.


Thanks!
I should have started it a few months earlier to have it ready by summer!


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## winemaker81 (Feb 4, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> On the other hand, if you like how it tastes there's nothing wrong with bottling and drinking it before it is completely clear.


This is a key point. A wine is ready to drink when the maker says it is. Sure, experienced winemakers know that aging is normally beneficial, and we encourage beginners to age their wine for better results, but it's not required.

Keep in mind that we might start drinking a wine young, and 6 to 12 months later we'll kick ourselves for not waiting!


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## Vinobeau (Feb 5, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Hello Vinobeau,
> Fellow wild grape member here. I was reading your post about the Carbonic Maceration. That sounds very interesting. I looked up what it meant and was curious how you ferment with CO2 by itself. I did read that some have done it in a plastic bag with dry ice. Without being a professional winery, I was wondering what home winemakers do to make this happen? in the above posts it sounds like there are a few methods to ferment the wild grapes.
> Thanks,
> Senior Hobby


I followed the recipe for "Wild Grape, Nouveau Style" wine, found in" Mary's Recipes". Take a handful of grapes and crush them into the botom of the seal-able buckett. Place the rest of grapes, still attached to the stems into the bucket. Seal the bucket and let it sit for 4 to 5 weeks in a cool spot. Then you remove the stems & crush the grapes and start the regular fermentation.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 5, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I followed the recipe for "Wild Grape, Nouveau Style" wine, found in" Mary's Recipes".


What is the shelf like of the wine? Beaujolais nouveau has a life measured in months.


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## Vinobeau (Feb 7, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> What is the shelf like of the wine? Beaujolais nouveau has a life measured in months.


I have no idea how long it will last. The straight Beaujolais was terrible and I kept four bottles of it to try in 5 to 10 years. The rest of the batch i blended with some Elderberry & Cranberry & Tomato. That blend turned out drinkable!


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## winemaker81 (Feb 7, 2022)

Vinobeau said:


> I have no idea how long it will last. The straight Beaujolais was terrible and I kept four bottles of it to try in 5 to 10 years. The rest of the batch i blended with some Elderberry & Cranberry & Tomato. That blend turned out drinkable!


Carbonic maceration is fermenting whole, uncrushed grapes in an anaerobic environment, typically produced by filling a tank with grapes and pumping in CO2 or nitrogen. The resulting wine ages VERY quickly, and in Beaujolais, each fall's Nouveau production is on the market by November 15. From my own experience, the wine is declining by late January and by April it's in rough shape, approaching undrinkable.

The process you described appears to mimic this, as the crushed grapes will produce CO2, so the whole grapes will ferment inside the skins in an anaerobic environment.

If this is carbonic maceration, you will not get 5-10 years from the wine -- 5 months may be it.

Please note I don't know this for a fact -- I'm comparing processes and making what is hopefully1 an educated guess.

Does anyone else have any experience with this process?


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## wood1954 (Feb 7, 2022)

BTW, the foxy taste went away after about three years


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 8, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> You may enjoy the Skeeter Pee. Personally I don’t like it as well as my hard lemonade (better than Mike’s). I can post the recipe if you are interested. It uses dried malt extract so is more like a beer.
> You may also like the Dragon Blood but even with extra fruit, I find it thin and weak.
> Not trying to discourage you from trying; just a word of warning that Dragon Blood and Skeeter Pee may disappoint.


Hello VinesnBines,
I started your recipe of Skeeter Pee last week. Just curious, is there any maintenance I need to do? No daily testing, etc? I put it with my other wine in a cooler dark room after starting it; probably should have put it in a warmer room. It had some bubbling buildup on the top after a few days. I shook it a few days and brought it out in a warmer room. It seemed to have a small buildup like lees on the bottom so I shook it every day for three days to mix the yeast up a little. It looks like it is more bubbly looking now although I don't think I've seen any bubbling in the airlock. Does this take a few months to complete?


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

Check your fermentation with a hydrometer. It should have started about 1.040 - 1.050 and ferment in one to two weeks to dry. .998 or thereabouts. It will start to clear as it hits 1.000 or lower. Keep it under airlock because it is lower alcohol; more like beer than wine.

As soon as it is dry, in a large sauce pan, add between 4 to 8 cups cane sugar (I use 4 but you should add 4 to the whole batch then taste; add more if necessary for your taste), 2 cans lemonade concentrate, and 3 cups water and, stirring continuously, bring to a simmer. Remove from heat, and dissolve 3.5 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. Add lemonade/sugar/sorbate solution to a 7 gal bottling bucket. Rack the fermented lemonade from your carboy into bottling bucket with the sorbate solution, stirring thoroughly.

You can bottle in beer or wine bottles, or you can keg. Even with the sorbate, you will probably get a little bit of carbonation as it sits, but it is usually not enough to pop a cork. I usually keg, and force carbonate.

It is ready to drink on bottling day. 

Here is the original recipe: Full Hard Lemonade recipe


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 8, 2022)

Thanks VinesnBines,
After I posted the question I found the original recipe and noticed the process. I followed the recipe given but didn't check the sg when I started (beginning wine maker yet). I will check it to see where I am at. I did just shake the carboy and it had lots of bubbling going on so I think I am ok. I will let you know how it goes!


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

Keep on shaking! Just take a reading now and go from there. I love this stuff; cross between wine and beer. I brew beer too so have to remember that not everyone has a handle on beer processes.

I just beer get done. Sometimes I take a reading of SG but beer will tell me when it is done. Krausen will fall and the beer clears, then I bottle or keg.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 8, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Keep on shaking! Just take a reading now and go from there. I love this stuff; cross between wine and beer. I brew beer too so have to remember that not everyone has a handle on beer process.


Great, I was hoping when I was shaking it that I was doing the right thing. After reading the recipe I saw that they recommended putting in a bottling bucket. I don't have one of those. I was wondering if this can be used for the carbonation process. I don't have a keg either. Can you give me an idea of what is a good keg type. I am pondering the carbonation thing and a little hesitant because of the explosion possibilities! I do like the possibilities of the lemonade recipe for other flavors!


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

Just bottle it like wine if you choose. I have a beer kegging system and keg in corny kegs. The system can be a bit pricy. Lo Basico Ball Lock Keg System (USED KEG) Adding the CO2 tank (empty) adds about $82 so a keg system is about $200. Unless you plan to keg wine or beer; probably not a good purchase. 

No concerns of explosions with carbonation; getting the keg to seal can be a pain as can be leaks around fittings and the regulator. But when it all goes well, kegging is great! I use a lot of keg lube and new gaskets.


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 8, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Just bottle it like wine if you choose. I have a beer kegging system and keg in corny kegs. The system can be a bit pricy. Lo Basico Ball Lock Keg System (USED KEG) Adding the CO2 tank (empty) adds about $82 so a keg system is about $200. Unless you plan to keg wine or beer; probably not a good purchase.
> 
> No concerns of explosions with carbonation; getting the keg to seal can be a pain as can be leaks around fittings and the regulator. But when it all goes well, kegging is great! I use a lot of keg lube and new gaskets.


Thanks,
That is the answer I was looking for. It can get quite costly if you want to go "all in" with this whole process. A few more questions, do I need to bottle it? If this is something that will be used up rather quickly (not by me only! HaHa) would it be fine to leave it in a carboy? If I do bottle it, skip the carbonation part? 
As long as I have a listening ear, do you have your own grapes? I am seriously thinking about planting some grapes this year. Background; I live in Minnesota on heavy black soil with lots of clay interspersed. It is quite windy where I live but that doesn't stop the mold from coming out as my tomato plants do get it every year. I give them a complete haircut (except for a few on top) of leaves about three times a year just to keep the mold out. I am thinking about planting the vines on the South side of an evergreen grove I have. This area gets extreme South sun and is about the driest part of my yard as well it gets good air circulation (evergreens are trimmed up to about 10 ft). Do you think the evergreens might contribute to an environment that might be too acidic for grape plants?


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 8, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks,
> That is the answer I was looking for. It can get quite costly if you want to go "all in" with this whole process. A few more questions, do I need to bottle it? If this is something that will be used up rather quickly (not by me only! HaHa) would it be fine to leave it in a carboy? If I do bottle it, skip the carbonation part?
> As long as I have a listening ear, do you have your own grapes? I am seriously thinking about planting some grapes this year. Background; I live in Minnesota on heavy black soil with lots of clay interspersed. It is quite windy where I live but that doesn't stop the mold from coming out as my tomato plants do get it every year. I give them a complete haircut (except for a few on top) of leaves about three times a year just to keep the mold out. I am thinking about planting the vines on the South side of an evergreen grove I have. This area gets extreme South sun and is about the driest part of my yard as well it gets good air circulation (evergreens are trimmed up to about 10 ft). Do you think the evergreens might contribute to an environment that might be too acidic for grape plants?


Hi Again,
I am sitting on about 10 gallons of wild grape wine that is a little acidic. I am reading about MLF and think that I am going to try it. The book I'm reading talks about Malic & Lactic Acid test strips so you know what you are dealing with. I checked Midwest Wine Supply Store and they just carry a acid testing kit. Do you use acid testing strips and if so, what brand & where can I find them.
Thanks,
Senior Hobby


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks,
> That is the answer I was looking for. It can get quite costly if you want to go "all in" with this whole process. A few more questions, do I need to bottle it? If this is something that will be used up rather quickly (not by me only! HaHa) would it be fine to leave it in a carboy? If I do bottle it, skip the carbonation part?
> As long as I have a listening ear, do you have your own grapes? I am seriously thinking about planting some grapes this year. Background; I live in Minnesota on heavy black soil with lots of clay interspersed. It is quite windy where I live but that doesn't stop the mold from coming out as my tomato plants do get it every year. I give them a complete haircut (except for a few on top) of leaves about three times a year just to keep the mold out. I am thinking about planting the vines on the South side of an evergreen grove I have. This area gets extreme South sun and is about the driest part of my yard as well it gets good air circulation (evergreens are trimmed up to about 10 ft). Do you think the evergreens might contribute to an environment that might be too acidic for grape plants?


It is a quick drinker but also lower in alcohol so oxygen will be more damaging. I've never kept it in a carboy more than a couple weeks so I have no idea what will happen. If you were planning a party, I'd say skip the bottles and drink it up. I still think you would prefer to stick in some kind of bottle for storage. Use the sorbate and forget carbonation. Mix it with Sprite or Ginger ale if you want a fizz.

I do have a vineyard in the mountains of Virgina. You probably should start a new thread with questions because there are several Minnesota growers in the Forum and several U Minn cultivars that will work on your site. Evergreens are no problem for grapes, just don't let the pines shade the grapes. Grapes like sun.


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## ChuckD (Feb 8, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Check your fermentation with a hydrometer. It should have started about 1.040 - 1.050 and ferment in one to two weeks to dry. .998 or thereabouts. It will start to clear as it hits 1.000 or lower. Keep it under airlock because it is lower alcohol; more like beer than wine.
> 
> As soon as it is dry, in a large sauce pan, add between 4 to 8 cups cane sugar (I use 4 but you should add 4 to the whole batch then taste; add more if necessary for your taste), 2 cans lemonade concentrate, and 3 cups water and, stirring continuously, bring to a simmer. Remove from heat, and dissolve 3.5 teaspoons of potassium sorbate. Add lemonade/sugar/sorbate solution to a 7 gal bottling bucket. Rack the fermented lemonade from your carboy into bottling bucket with the sorbate solution, stirring thoroughly.
> 
> ...


I started one on Saturday but it’s in a primary bucket in a 75 degree room and fizzing like mad. I missed the part about fermenting in the carboy. Should I rack it into a carboy before it hits “dry”?


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## winemaker81 (Feb 8, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> A few more questions, do I need to bottle it? If this is something that will be used up rather quickly (not by me only! HaHa) would it be fine to leave it in a carboy? If I do bottle it, skip the carbonation part?


If you have them, you can bottle in gallon jugs, as you may use a gallon up fast enough to avoid oxidation. Also, once opened for consumption, keep the jug in the fridge to slow oxidation.

I buy Carlo Rossi Burgundy and Chablis in 4 liter bottles. I decant the jug into five 750 ml and one 375 ml, and use them for cooking. The wine is $17, a new jug is $10, so the wine is $1.25 per 750.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

I like that idea Bryan! My gallon jugs are always in use and I'm too cheap to buy more.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I started one on Saturday but it’s in a primary bucket in a 75 degree room and fizzing like mad. I missed the part about fermenting in the carboy. Should I rack it into a carboy before it hits “dry”?


You probably are fine but if you have a lid for the bucket, you might pop it down with an airlock. Don't let it stay out of airlock after it finishes fermentation. I've just always fermented under airlock.


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## ChuckD (Feb 8, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> You probably are fine but if you have a lid for the bucket, you might pop it down with an airlock. Don't let it stay out of airlock after it finishes fermentation. I've just always fermented under airlock.


It’s going fast. I’ll transfer it before it hits 1.010 or so.

I also noted that the recipe doesn’t include k-meta. I didn’t add it to the “must” since I figured there’s no real fruit so shouldn’t have any wild yeast to kill off. What about pre-bottling? I would think the standard dose would be beneficial.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 8, 2022)

No kmeta. This is a beer rather than wine. Not a long storage beverage. It won't last long enough for you to worry about oxidation or long storage. It will go down fast. Let me know if I am wrong.


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## ChuckD (Feb 8, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> No kmeta. This is a beer rather than wine. Not a long storage beverage. It won't last long enough for you to worry about oxidation or long storage. It will go down fast. Let me know if I am wrong.


Me thinks you will be right. It’s at 1.024 tonight and if I degassed it and put it on ice it would be very drinkable as-is!


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 8, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Me thinks you will be right. It’s at 1.024 tonight and if I degassed it and put it on ice it would be very drinkable as-is!


Hello ChuckD,
I think I am just a step ahead of you with the Skeeter Pee recipe. I tested mine today and the sg is at 1.0 so it won't be long. I am seeing a buildup on the bottom so I will probably be racking as soon as it's done fermenting. Does anybody know an approximate number of times to rack, or just follow the norm, watch the lees?


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## ChuckD (Feb 8, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> Hello ChuckD,
> I think I am just a step ahead of you with the Skeeter Pee recipe. I tested mine today and the sg is at 1.0 so it won't be long. I am seeing a buildup on the bottom so I will probably be racking as soon as it's done fermenting. Does anybody know an approximate number of times to rack, or just follow the norm, watch the lees?


From what I have read you rack it once after fermentation is complete, let it clear, then stabilize, sweeten and bottle.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 9, 2022)

You don't rack my hard lemonade. It clears in primary. The beauty of my recipe is it is easy and fast. No extra steps are necessary, no k-meta, no stabilization. It is a malted lemon drink with no more than 7% AVB. Too much racking or O2 can make it funky though with the lemon flavor, you probably wouldn't notice.
Check the original recipe: Full Hard Lemonade recipe


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## SeniorHobby (Feb 9, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> You don't rack my hard lemonade. It clears in primary. The beauty of my recipe is it is easy and fast. No extra steps are necessary, no k-meta, no stabilization. It is a malted lemon drink with no more than 7% AVB. Too much racking or O2 can make it funky though with the lemon flavor, you probably wouldn't notice.
> Check the original recipe: Full Hard Lemonade recipe


Thanks!
I'll just keep watching it then!!


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## ChuckD (Feb 9, 2022)

Of course when I copied the recipe I didn’t include the part about doing all the fermentation in a carboy. I don’t trust it sitting in a bucket long enough to clear, Even with a sealing lid, so I’ll be racking mine to a carboy tonight.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 9, 2022)

The solids dropping out is great. It will clear pretty fast.


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## ChuckD (Feb 9, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> No extra steps are necessary, no k-meta, no stabilization.


I get the no K-meta but doesn’t back sweetening without sorbate, even if it’s just the few cans of concentrate, kick start fermentation in the bottle?


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## VinesnBines (Feb 9, 2022)

Read the instructions AGAIN. 3.5 teaspoons of sorbate. Must add! Stabilization to me means time to end fermentation. Sorry to be confusing.


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## SeniorHobby (Mar 31, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> This is ready to drink as soon as fermentation is complete. Usually about 2 weeks after “brewing”.
> Hard Lemonade
> 12 cans frozen lemonade concentrate
> 1 pound extra light dry malt extract (beer supply store)
> ...


Hello VinesnBines,
I have a question on the Skeeter Pee with a twist. Is this like wine with oxidation? I have a large carboy and apparently don't drink enough; but I have not worried about the headspace as I would in my winemaking. Should I be bottling it after it is complete to avoid this?
Thanks!


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## Derrald (Sep 25, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> Next year try straight grape juice. Also try getting MLF going to help reduce the acid. The only time I made wild grape wine I made it like a port. I kept adding sugar till EC 1118 died I think I got around 18% Abv. after about 4 years it was pretty good.


Can you use baking soda to lessen acid?


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## Derrald (Sep 25, 2022)

Derrald said:


> Can you use baking soda to lessen acid


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## wood1954 (Sep 26, 2022)

I think it would make the juice bitter, try mlf bacteria or potassium bicarbonate


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## Derrald (Sep 26, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> I think it would make the juice bitter, try mlf bacteria or potassium bicarbonate


I may try that with this batch of (indian; mustang; fox) grape wine. Again, it has been many years since i have tried this. I do remember doing an orange, peach, mango from concentrate and it did well with a couple tsp of baking soda and the wine snobs that tried it never mentioned bitter. I am going to try it.


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## Derrald (Sep 26, 2022)

The potassium bicarbonate that is.


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## Rice_Guy (Sep 26, 2022)

Derrald said:


> Can you use baking soda to lessen acid?


#1 chill the wine for a few weeks in a fridge or garage/ shed which is between 28 and 34 F
#2 potassium bicarbonate is normal and food grade chemical is available at the local wine supply store, potassium gives a bitter note I wouldn't do this for over .2 pH unit
#3 back sweeten the finished wine, sugar is magic and it will also increase the fruity notes
#4 baking soda has sodium in it, it works but give slight salty note.
#5 as wood said MLF

My favorite process is to mix with a less acidic juice.


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## Derrald (Sep 26, 2022)

Thank you


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