# A Legal Question



## tatud4life (Jul 10, 2012)

Have a question about the possibility of selling wine. I know that selling other forms of alcohol is highly frowned upon by the government. I am assuming that the same goes for wine. I didn't know if there was any difference since wine making is basically a natural process and other forms are mechanical in nature. I'm not talking about selling mass quantities across the world. Just maybe the occasional sell to some friends just to help recoup the cost of the additives and equipment. Any guidance is very welcome. Thanks in advance!!


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2012)

TT4L, you need to check your state laws as the laws governing the sale of wine vary from state to state. You might try batering with your wine on a _quid pro quo_ basis.


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## tatud4life (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks guys! I figured that was the situation. I'm sure I can get "reimbursed" by my friends for my efforts. As far as my conscience, Uncle Sam gets enough from me for it not to keep me up at night. I will check the state laws here and see what it says. Thanks again guys!!


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## roadwarriorsvt (Jul 10, 2012)

Remember, its only illegal if you get caught!


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## tatud4life (Jul 10, 2012)

Exactly!!!


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## dangerdave (Jul 10, 2012)

I make wine for a few close peoples. I do not sell it. They pay for the kit, bottles, corks, labels, etc, and I make it in my cellar. I repeat, "_I make wine for people_".

It's all in the verbage.


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## tatud4life (Jul 10, 2012)

It's always in how you word things. I've learned that the hard way with my wife sometimes. Lol I'll see how it goes. Nobody might like my wine or SP. I highly doubt it with the SP, but you never know. At least my wife has it in her mind that she will have an unlimited supply of alcohol.


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## DoctorCAD (Jul 10, 2012)

Advertising an illegal activity on an open internet sight is really stupid.


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## tatud4life (Jul 10, 2012)

Who is advertising? I was simply curious if the law applying tithe sale of other forms of alcohol differed from the sale of wine. I didn't know if wine making being a natural process had any differences.


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## JohnT (Jul 11, 2012)

*Don't be an idiot!*

Guys, 

A very close freind of mine had all of the wine making equipment, wine stock, and supplies seized by the police! I do not want to even talk about the fines he ended up paying.

This was a couple of years ago. He did as was suggested in this thread and only sold to friends. The problem is that one of his fiends had a friend that was a cop. You simply can not count on other people to keep their mouths shut or to whom they might "give a taste" of wine. 

I NEVER SELL WINE TO ANYONE, EVEN TO MY OWN FATHER OR BROTHER! If they want wine bad enough, have them get their own supplies and then you can make wine together. just do not accept even a dime for finished product!

Any other way, unless you have a license, IS ILLEGAL! I do not believe that there is a single state that allows for the manufacture and sale of an alcoholic beverage without a license. 

Be safe, be legal, and have fun!


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you John!!! That is the whole reason that I posed the question in the first place. I wanted to make sure that I didn't do anything that would jeopardize mine or my family's well being. Not to find ways to circumvent the law. Although I do think that too much of my hard earned money is taken by the powers that be, I'm not going to do anything to put my family at risk of anything. If anything, I'm making wine to save myself some money. I have to support my wife's addiction! Lol. Just kidding. 

I didn't know if wine making being a natural process made any difference in the eyes of the law. I didn't assume that it did and I hadn't done the research to find out, but I did think this would be the best place to start looking. I was not trying to find an end run around any laws or advertise any intent to do so by myself or anyone here. I apologize if that was perceived!! Not only to I not want to risk my freedom and finances, I don't want to put anyone here at risk either!!


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

if the so called powers that be could find a way to get their cut it wouldn't be illegal.
same go's for another well known substance! its all about the all mighty dollar.....just like higher taxing of cigs,soda, fast food etc...
they don't give a shite about your health they want more of your money.. they play the health card to justify stealing more of your income...


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Exactly Cindy!!! I don't want this to turn political or anything, but that was the real reason that the other substance was deemed illegal in the first place. No taxes were being paid on the sale of it. Yes, there is health risks if it isn't produced correctly, but taxes was the real reason behind it. That is fine though. I will drink whatever my wife leaves me. 

BTW Cindy, I checked the lid for the primary and it does not have a run on the bottom. I thought it did, but I was wrong. Sorry. :'(


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## robie (Jul 11, 2012)

IMPORTANT NOTICE

The opinions expressed on this thread are just that - opinions; opinions of individuals and not endorsed in any way by the forum's management or owner.

No response on this or any other thread of this forum should not be construed as valid legal advice.

The forum in no manner condones or upholds any illegal practices.

In order to legally make wine for sale, all required local, state, and federal laws must be adhered to fully. No one should consider engaging in making wine for sales without first acquiring legal representation.


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

WOW!!! This thread has gone well beyond what I originally intended! I was just looking for an answer to a question. I have my answer and a whole lot more.


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## JohnT (Jul 11, 2012)

cindy said:


> if the so called powers that be could find a way to get their cut it wouldn't be illegal.
> same go's for another well known substance! its all about the all mighty dollar.....just like higher taxing of cigs,soda, fast food etc...
> they don't give a shite about your health they want more of your money.. they play the health card to justify stealing more of your income...


 

Another card they play... "It's for the children". Just how much lottery money actually goes to fund schools? (which is why they said that they needed it in NJ)? 

We recently had a series of renevations to our only school in town. $26 million! This is an elementry school for 800 students (K through 8) and all of that money was to go to renevations of what currently exists. 

This will not add a single new classroom, just update existing ones. 

This was above and beyond the current school budget. 

This is also a state where we have the highest per capita property taxes in the nation. 

Let's do the math... 

26,000,000 divided by 800 is 32,500 per student. That is more than most colleges charge per year!

Well that's new jersey for ya. Someone's pockets got very heavy on this deal!


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

this is interesting
In order to sell your wine you must be registered as a Bonded Wine Cellar (BWC). Alcohol is taxed by the federal government via excise taxes. So, while you cannot sell your own finely crafted home-made wine you are permitted to take it off your premises to organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions, such as home winemaker’s contests, tastings or judgings. Remember that under no circumstances can your wine be sold or offered for sale at these or any other venue. If you do wish to sell your wine it is heavily suggested that you have your wine made by a BWC to help save on the cost of licenses, taxes and other fees.
How much can I make legally?
To most accurately answer this question you should check local statutes as the amounts legal to make will vary. Most states allow federal law to dictate their own law. Other states amended the federal law but still permit between 100 and 200 gallons of wine at home. The overall amount is usually determined by the number of persons in the household who are of drinking age.
Believe it or not but there are still some states that refuse to legalize home wine making. Alabama and Mississippi are the only remaining states where making your own wine and beer at home are still illegal as a hobby. All other states allow some homemade wine and beer to be crafted. Most states allow home wine makers to share their wine with their family and guests within certain legal parameters.
In Tennessee and Texas, as in most other states, they allowed the federal law to determine their state law with regards to legal amounts to make. Idaho law states that beer made from “native materials” is legal. What they mean by native materials can be found out by calling their local regulation agency.
The last two states to legalize the hobby of home wine making are Oklahoma and Utah. Both states, within the past 10 years, legalized homemade wine and beer much to the delight of their residents.


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## JohnT (Jul 11, 2012)

robie said:


> IMPORTANT NOTICE
> 
> The opinions expressed on this thread are just that - opinions; opinions of individuals and not endorsed in any way by the forum's management or owner.
> 
> ...


 
HERE, HERE! It is simply not worth violating any existing laws for a hobby!


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## JohnT (Jul 11, 2012)

Cindy, 

This goes all the way back to prohabition. Most folks do not realize that home wine making (for personal consumption) was legal during those dark days. They were, though, very specific about what was legal and what was not. Selling of any alcohol was a big no-no (just ask elliot ness or al capone).


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

tatud4life said:


> WOW!!! This thread has gone well beyond what I originally intended! I was just looking for an answer to a question. I have my answer and a whole lot more.



I've learned a lot from this thread! you asked a good question isn't that why we read forums is to learn? I never once thought to google this topic and whats associated with it until now and I learned some things

In 1919 President Woodrow Wilson signed into law the 18th Amendment to the United States Constitution. This enacted what would be known as the Prohibition Era (1919-1933). The 18th Amendment outlawed the manufacturing and consumption of alcoholic beverages “for beverage purposes.” This resulted in breweries, vineyards and distilleries, across the country, being closed down or used to make malt for non-alcoholic purposes.
Based on an IRS ruling in 1920, the making of wine was looked upon more graciously. That ruling changed the standards for allowable alcoholic content in wine and cider but not beer. Beer was not allowed to have an alcoholic content higher than 0.5%.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt repealed Prohibition in 1933 when he signed into law the 21st Amendment. However, not contained within that amendment was the legalization of home beer making (home wine and cider making were both legalized at that time).
Home brewing of beer was finally legalized in 1978 when President Jimmy Carter signed bill, H.R. 1337, which repealed Federal restrictions on home-made beer and excise taxes on small amounts of home-made wine and beer. However, even with the passages of the 21st Amendment and H.R. 1337, states were charged with regulating alcohol within their own borders. As a result some states have not legalized home wine making or home brewing of beer even to this day.


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

I read the book From Vine to Wine and it stated that you can make 100 gallons per adult in the house. I know that is just from a book and the laws are different. I need to check my states requirements just so I don't do anything they wouldn't like.


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## robie (Jul 11, 2012)

tatud4life said:


> I read the book From Vine to Wine and it stated that you can make 100 gallons per adult in the house. I know that is just from a book and the laws are different. I need to check my states requirements just so I don't do anything they wouldn't like.



That's a very smart thing to do.


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

WOW Cindy!! I just learned something!!! I too thought it was a legitimate question, but it started to balloon into something more. I belong to TVOS and learned that Tennessee was actually going to be a huge grape and wine producer until prohibition started. Not until the last 50 years I believe has grape growing and wine making started to catch on again here. I do like discussions like this though. You can learn a lot from others and try to impart a little bit of your own knowledge to the world.


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Tennessee state law states that "A private individual I the person's own home may manufacture and possess wine or beer in an amount not in excess of that amount annually permitted as of January 1, 1997, by federal statutes and regulations relative to household manufacture and consumption; provided that the wine or beer is for personal consumption by members and guests of the household. Such wine or beer may also be transported by the person, member, or guest without being in violation of this part; provided that the amount being transported at one (1) time shall not exceed five (5) gallons. 

(b) It shall be inferred that transportation of more than five (5) gallons is for the purpose of resale or redistribution. 

(c) For purposes of this section, "beer" means the undistilled and unfortified product, of any name or description, of the normal alcoholic fermentation of malt or other ingredients except grapes. 

Other sites I read also state that the limit is 100 gallons of wine for a single adult home and 200 gallons for a 2 adult home.


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## RCGoodin (Jul 11, 2012)

What's wrong with setting up a booth at the local Farmer's Market and having a sign that says: "I can't sell this wine because I don't have a license, however I can take donations of $15 per bottle."?


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## saramc (Jul 11, 2012)

this is interesting
So, while you cannot sell your own finely crafted home-made wine you are permitted to take it off your premises to organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions, such as home winemaker’s contests, tastings or judgings. Remember that under no circumstances can your wine be sold or offered for sale at these or any other venue. *Actually, taking your home fermented/brewed concoctions off-site legally will depend on what your state law has to say about it. Some states do not allow off-site amateur contests, tastings, judgings. Big to do in California not too long ago.*

How much can I make legally?
To most accurately answer this question you should check local statutes as the amounts legal to make will vary. Most states allow federal law to dictate their own law. Other states amended the federal law but still permit between 100 and 200 gallons of wine at home. The overall amount is usually determined by the number of persons in the household who are of drinking age. *Don't forget the federal law combines beer and wine in the limit/year...so you cannot make 200 gallons of wine and 200 gallons of beer if you have 2 "of age" within the household...but then again, check your state law because they can MINIMIZE the federal law.*

Believe it or not but there are still some states that refuse to legalize home wine making. Alabama and Mississippi are the only remaining states where making your own wine and beer at home are still illegal as a hobby. *Friend in AL told me it is now legal to make wine at home in AL. I know in May it passed the HOUSE level, but I cannot find any confirmation if it has hit SENATE yet. *


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## robie (Jul 11, 2012)

RCGoodin said:


> What's wrong with setting up a booth at the local Farmer's Market and having a sign that says: "I can't sell this wine because I don't have a license, however I can take donations of $15 per bottle."?



Would be illegal! Taking a donation, rather than a specific selling price, is something non-profit organizations do for making the "donation" tax deductible. But they don't do it with alcohol!

Really, questions like this should be asked of an attorney. No one on this forum, through this forum can truly and legally answer such a question, not even a member who is an attorney.

The moderators on this forum are not trying to be difficult, but in order to keep this forum legal and up-and-operating, it cannot become a venue for this sort of discussion. 

Really folks, there are some out there who would love to put their proverbial thumb on our forum and squash it. Short of removing this thread, let's individually have such discussion offline with an attorney.

Let's leave it with this - short of a license and approval by all local, state and federal legal approval, we home wine makers cannot sell our wine.

Peace!!!


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Understood! I would not want that to happen. I have talked to too many nice people that are willing to help with this hobby in anyway they can. I would hate to see anything bad happen to anyone here or to this site because of a discussion that I started. Robie, since I started this discussion, I have no problem with this thread being locked or removed. I am just speaking for myself of course, but I have grown to enjoy talking to you guys and would hate to see that stop over this. I now am clear on the laws in my state and the laws of the federal government. Thank you everyone that responded and thank you for helping me understand the law on making and the selling of alcoholic beverages!!!!!!


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

I sell eggs you wanna talk about chickens? I have a girl that lays tripple yolk eggs!
I can tell which girl lays them cause she's the one limping
check out this egg!!!!


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Works for me Cindy!!! Those are some impressive eggs!!! What chicken did the black one come from? Which came first? The chicken or the egg?


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

youre a funny fellow!!! the black one is an avacado do you know the meaning of avacado?


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## JohnT (Jul 11, 2012)

Oh, 

To me it looked like an alligator egg!


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Noun
A pear shaped tropical fruit with green or blackish skin and rich yellowish pulp enclosing a single large seed. 

Adjective
Of the dull yellowish green of the meat of an avocado. 

 lmao!!!!

So which came first?


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

BOOOOOOONK! that explains the fruit but I was looking for the meaning of the word avacado.
The history of avocado takes us back to the Aztecs and their language, Nahuatl, which contained the word ahuacatl meaning both "fruit of the avocado tree" and "testicle."  I figure he who is above made the chicken 1st and told it to lay eggs for us to enjoy in many different ways! the incredible edible EGG!


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

ROFLMAO!!!!! I didn't know that about avocado!!! That explains why it looks that way! And yes, I would He made the chicken first.


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

also avacado's hang together on the tree one is always hanging lower then the other at any given time
sound familiar?


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

cindy said:


> also avacado's hang together on the tree one is always hanging lower then the other at any given time
> sound familiar?



That is just too funny!!!!! And NO!!! That does not sound familiar!!! Is one bigger than the other?


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

tatud4life said:


> That is just too funny!!!!! And NO!!! That does not sound familiar!!! Is one bigger than the other?



sure its familiar go look in the mirror "Is one bigger than the other?"
I don't know could be I suppose


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

cindy said:


> sure its familiar go look in the mirror "Is one bigger than the other?"
> I don't know could be I suppose


 

LMAO!!!  

What kind of chickens do you have?


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## cindy (Jul 11, 2012)

red sexlinks- are named Nuggets 1-6
silver lace wyandotte- Silvia
gold lace wyandotte- Goldie
easter egger-Ester
barred rock-Roxie
buff orpington-Buffy
copper marans-Sweet pea
and a silkie named Phyllis Diller
my copper Marans Roo's are called dogfood lol their in the freezer.....


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Dang! You have a lot of hens!!! My Pappaw had some when I was young. I have no clue what breed they were. I just helped him turn them into dinner for us.


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## DoctorCAD (Jul 11, 2012)

cindy said:


> red sexlinks- are named Nuggets 1-6
> silver lace wyandotte- Silvia
> gold lace wyandotte- Goldie
> easter egger-Ester
> ...



I hear that they taste like chicken!!!


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## tatud4life (Jul 11, 2012)

Lol! Why does everything taste like chicken?


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## GWDawg1 (Jul 11, 2012)

Sorry, Cindy but you are wrong about Mississippi

"Title 67 Alcoholic Beverages
Chapter 3 Sale of light wine, beer and other alcoholic beverages Section 11

Every person shall have the right to make homemade wine for domestic or household uses only, free of all restraint by this chapter or otherwise, and no such election as provided for in Sections 67-3-7, 67-3-9 and 67-3-13, shall deprive any person of the right to make homemade wine for domestic or household uses only."


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## robie (Jul 12, 2012)

GWDawg1 said:


> Sorry, Cindy but you are wrong about Mississippi
> 
> "Title 67 Alcoholic Beverages
> Chapter 3 Sale of light wine, beer and other alcoholic beverages Section 11
> ...



I didn't know that, either.

Thanks for the update.


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## cindy (Jul 12, 2012)

no I'm not wrong, it's what I pulled off the web so they must be wrong.
besides we were tring to change the subject


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## Fabiola (Jul 14, 2012)

cindy said:


> red sexlinks- are named Nuggets 1-6
> silver lace wyandotte- Silvia
> gold lace wyandotte- Goldie
> easter egger-Ester
> ...



I have a barred rock that lays pink eggs (left)


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## Fabiola (Jul 14, 2012)

Rocky said:


> TT4L, you need to check your state laws as the laws governing the sale of wine vary from state to state. You might try batering with your wine on a _quid pro quo_ basis.



I found this link that has the laws for home winemaking in the 50 states:

http://www.americanwinegrape.com/blog/index.php/category/hottest-topics-in-wine/homewinemaking/


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## Rocky (Jul 14, 2012)

Great post, Fabiola. Thanks.


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