# Degassed wine now cloudy again after back sweetening. HELP!



## laceyogden (Feb 4, 2016)

Hi all!

On our first batch of wine using a kit as well as a FastFerminter. We started with a Pinor Noir. Our hydrometer readings are as follows:

1st- 1.085
2nd- 1.000
3rd- .996

After the 3rd and final reading, we cleared the wine and also back sweetened it along with adding our metabisulphite, sorbate and clarifier. Our reading was then 1.20 and has remained that for two weeks which would lead me to believe it has not begun the fermentation process again.

When we went to bottle it tonight, it is again very cloudy and does not taste well at all anymore yet our reading is still at 1.20.

HELP! I'm not sure what to do now??


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## vernsgal (Feb 4, 2016)

What did you have as a clarifier? Time will let your wine clear.Give it 3 months.If you don't want to wait you can add chitosan and kiesol if not the 1st time.
I would recommend giving it some time


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## sour_grapes (Feb 4, 2016)

Sounds like you are doing well and are on your way to good wine. Was this from a kit? If so, which one?

Couple of things: First, your SG is almost certainly 1.020, not 1.20. Second, there is probably nothing wrong, but you will need to be quite a bit more patient. Generally, the longer you can wait, the better. I let my red wines age about 4 mos. before bottling, and then about 14 more mos. before drinking. At a month or two, they taste very harsh and unpalatable. If you wait a few months, the cloudiness will almost certainly settle down.


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## Dhaynes (Feb 5, 2016)

Just curious as to why you back sweeten a Pinot? That's usually a dry wine. Also how much sugar did you add? A SG change from .996 to 1.020 would take a good deal of sugar. Nothing wrong with that if that's the way you like it. Just curious.


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## laceyogden (Feb 5, 2016)

My husband and I are both wine drinkers who love wine but hate it dry! We love the flavor of a Pinot but we can never find a good sweeter red wine so we were trying to make our own. Anyone familiar with Roscato? That's our favorite wine. And I hate to admit it but our reading is in fact 1.200


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## terrymck (Feb 5, 2016)

_And I hate to admit it but our reading is in fact 1.200_

You must have added a S/L of sweetener! How much and what was it?


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## cpfan (Feb 5, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> My husband and I are both wine drinkers who love wine but hate it dry! We love the flavor of a Pinot but we can never find a good sweeter red wine so we were trying to make our own. Anyone familiar with Roscato? That's our favorite wine. *And I hate to admit it but our reading is in fact 1.200* ��



Please post a picture of your hydrometer. I have never seen one that reads 1.200. Mine maxes at 1.150.

As already asked...which kit is it, and what did you sweeten with? Possibly the sweetener is the cause of the cloudiness.

Steve


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## sour_grapes (Feb 5, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> That's our favorite wine. And I hate to admit it but our reading is in fact 1.200 ��





cpfan said:


> Please post a picture of your hydrometer. I have never seen one that reads 1.200. Mine maxes at 1.150.



Agree with Steve. It may save you some time if you take a look at this video:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty7PAJaBsts"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty7PAJaBsts[/ame]


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## laceyogden (Feb 5, 2016)

I was sweating it but I got home to look and you all were right! 1.020 is the correct reading! Just keeping y'all on your toes and just want to make sure you really know what you're talking about before I take your advice  

So some more details... Wine brand is Winexpert Vinters Reserve Pinot Noir. Once we got to .996 reading, we back sweetened it with a sugar/water solution and then degrassed it, and added the packets it came with (metabisulphite, sorbate and then the chitosan clarifier). It almost immediately cleared and stayed that way for 2 weeks. The instructions say to bottle after 14 days so when we went to do so, we immediately noticed sludge sediment that came out first. We weren't sure what to do so we mixed it back in and then proceeded to bottle again and it was then murky. The taste is almost like it is sparkling now. Before stabilizing and clearing, the kit instructions say to NOT rack the wine because it could prevent clearing so not sure why or what to do with the remaining sediment if it is what is causing the wine to be cloudy again.

The instructions say if needing go degas again, we must add extra Metabisulfite powder to prevent oxidation but the local shop told me to just leave to clear on its own or put the collection ball back on and remove the sediment that collects. Would love any help I can get!


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## Floandgary (Feb 5, 2016)

Not to discourage you, but problems started at "FAST FERMENT" then everything seems to have been hurry, hurry, hurry... "The hurrier you go the behinder you get"... One step at a time will serve you better. When adding ingredients allow a little time in between. You're making wine, not shocking pool water.


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## laceyogden (Feb 5, 2016)

Not discouraging at all... This is our first rodeo and went with a kit initially so we could learn the process of things and we are just following the instructions that came with the kit and so far has gone perfect up until now.


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## heatherd (Feb 5, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> I was sweating it but I got home to look and you all were right! 1.020 is the correct reading! Just keeping y'all on your toes and just want to make sure you really know what you're talking about before I take your advice
> 
> So some more details... Wine brand is Winexpert Vinters Reserve Pinot Noir. Once we got to .996 reading, we back sweetened it with a sugar/water solution and then degrassed it, and added the packets it came with (metabisulphite, sorbate and then the chitosan clarifier). It almost immediately cleared and stayed that way for 2 weeks. The instructions say to bottle after 14 days so when we went to do so, we immediately noticed sludge sediment that came out first. We weren't sure what to do so we mixed it back in and then proceeded to bottle again and it was then murky. The taste is almost like it is sparkling now. Before stabilizing and clearing, the kit instructions say to NOT rack the wine because it could prevent clearing so not sure why or what to do with the remaining sediment if it is what is causing the wine to be cloudy again.
> 
> The instructions say if needing go degas again, we must add extra Metabisulfite powder to prevent oxidation but the local shop told me to just leave to clear on its own or put the collection ball back on and remove the sediment that collects. Would love any help I can get!



Lacey,

Two things stand out from what you typed, and both are solvable:

First you said you stirred the sediment back into the wine. That needs to settle back to a layer at the bottom, and then you need to rack the wine off of it.

Second you said your wine tastes sparkling. That is gas. You can solve this by giving it time to degas on its own, or stirring to degas.

One other thing for next time: You should add the kmeta and sorbate before you back-sweeten to prevent refermentation.

So... your wine needs to sit to clear. Also be sure to rack before bottling so that you don't have to worry about disturbing sediment.

No worries, your wine is salvageable! Never bottle wine that is fizzy or cloudy because those won't fix themselves in the bottles.

Heather


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## laceyogden (Feb 5, 2016)

Thanks so much for your reply Heather! Just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In our kit instructions, it only had us rack once before 2ndary fermentation and the the step after 2ndary was stabilizing and clearing. We only mixed the sediment back in when it came time to bottle because we were afraid racking it would prevent it from clearing. The instructions very clearly say to not rack again after 2ndary. Any idea why we still had sediment after stabilising and clearing? I don't see anything about racking once again before bottling?


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## sour_grapes (Feb 5, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> The instructions say to bottle after 14 days so when we went to do so, we immediately noticed sludge sediment that came out first. We weren't sure what to do *so we mixed it back in and then proceeded to bottle again* and it was then murky. The taste is almost like it is sparkling now. *Before* stabilizing and clearing, the kit instructions say to NOT rack the wine because it could prevent clearing so not sure why or what to do with the remaining sediment if it is what is causing the wine to be cloudy again.





laceyogden said:


> Thanks so much for your reply Heather! Just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In our kit instructions, it only had us rack once before 2ndary fermentation and the the step after 2ndary was stabilizing and clearing. *We only mixed the sediment back in when it came time to bottle *because we were afraid racking it would prevent it from clearing. The instructions very clearly say to not rack again after 2ndary. Any idea why we still had sediment after stabilising and clearing? I don't see anything about racking once again before bottling?



At the risk of being obvious and pedantic, when your wine clears, it clears because the particles that were suspended in the wine fell out of suspension, and now form sediment at the bottom. Yes, your kit instructions tell you not to rack off of this sediment after secondary, but they DO NOT say to stir up the sediment before bottling. In fact, they say:


> After 14 days, check your wine for clarity by drawing a small sample into a wineglass and examining it in good light. If it is not completely clear, leave for another 7 days. Do not bottle cloudy wine: it will not clear in the bottle.



Yes, I agree that your instructions do not say anything about racking just before bottling. And they are correct, you do not HAVE to rack before bottling, as long as you can siphon the wine into your bottles without disturbing the sediment layer. However, many of us find it easier to rack the wine into a clean container just before bottling, so that we do not have to worry about disturbing the sediment during the start/stop actions of bottling.

At this point, my advice would be to wait a week, let everything settle out, and then rack into a clean container. Make sure it is well-degassed at this point. Then bottle.


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## hounddawg (Feb 6, 2016)

just my 2 cents but I notice some giving you advice are for lack of better words, brains, I have figured out that using my thinking instead of listening to them, (of which is why I'm on here) only hurts myself, hence once again why I'm on here,
Richard::


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## Dhaynes (Feb 6, 2016)

Lacey - When you say you are using a Fast Fermenter, I'm assuming you are talking about one of the new cone shaped fermenters with the removable bowl on the bottom. I've never used one but I am assuming that the whole purpose of this design is to let the lees settle into the bowl which you can then remove and dump. If this is the case you should not need to rack the wine. Just let it sit for as long as it takes for the sediment to all drop out and the wine to clear and then close the valve and remove the bowl. Just whatever you do don't stir it again with the sediment still in the fermenter. 

After you remove the sediment you can whip the wine with a drill powered whip to degas it if needs it. To check this you can thief some wine into a small tube or bottle that you can cover with your thumb or the palm of you hand to seal it air tight. Then just shake the bottle a little. Put it up to your ear and remove your thumb / hand. If you hear a pop sound or if you saw bubbles rising up when you were shaking then you still have CO2 and need to degas some more. Be sure to sanitize your test container first. The VR Pinot kit makes a nice wine but you are going to want to let it age at least 6 months and preferable a year before you start to drink it. All of the WE instructions for their larger kits (Select, Eclipse, etc.) all have a statement that says if you are going to age the wine for more than 6 months you need to add more metabisulfite. Once I read that we started adding it to our VR and IM kits as well. I'll try to find an instruction sheet from one of these kits so I can give you the exact wording.
[ update ] From Eclipse instructions: "If you want to age your wine more than 6 months, you must add extra metabisulphite powder to prevent oxidation. To do this, dissolve 1.5 grams (1/4 teaspoon) of metabisulfite powder into 125ml (1/2 cup) of cool water and gently stir into the wine."


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## laceyogden (Feb 6, 2016)

hounddawg said:


> just my 2 cents but I notice some giving you advice are for lack of better words, brains, I have figured out that using my thinking instead of listening to them, (of which is why I'm on here) only hurts myself, hence once again why I'm on here,
> Richard::



No comprende hounddawg... Too much wine last night??


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## laceyogden (Feb 6, 2016)

Thank you so much for your response! Super super helpful!!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 6, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> Thanks so much for your reply Heather! Just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. In our kit instructions, it only had us rack once before 2ndary fermentation and the the step after 2ndary was stabilizing and clearing. We only mixed the sediment back in when it came time to bottle because we were afraid racking it would prevent it from clearing. The instructions very clearly say to not rack again after 2ndary. Any idea why we still had sediment after stabilising and clearing? I don't see anything about racking once again before bottling?



I'm wondering if you just got confused at stirring your lees back into suspension, at the wrong part of the process. After stirring it in, you add packets,stir, let settle (clear) ,usually 14 days,then rack off lees or sediment, Then bottle, if I'm following you correctly.??

Thanks!


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## laceyogden (Feb 7, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I'm wondering if you just got confused at stirring your lees back into suspension, at the wrong part of the process. After stirring it in, you add packets,stir, let settle (clear) ,usually 14 days,then rack off lees or sediment, Then bottle, if I'm following you correctly.??
> 
> Thanks!



Would love to get your thoughts based on these instructions. Wondering if it's me wrong or it.


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## Johnd (Feb 7, 2016)

That's the way WE has you do their kits. Primary in bucket, rack to carboy (leave thickest sediment) to finish AF. Stir it all up, degas, add KMS and clearing agents, let sit. It works.....


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> Would love to get your thoughts based on these instructions. Wondering if it's me wrong or it.
> 
> Oops I did it again (see my next post)
> 
> ...


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> Would love to get your thoughts based on these instructions. Wondering if it's me wrong or it.



Hi

Step 1 is done in bucket.
5 to 7 days, Rack to carboy let finish fermenting, then...

10 to 14 days later (usually) gets you at the correct Sg 0.996 or less,- DON'T RACK-. First you need to stabilize which is metabisulphite , sorbate, stirring to remove CO2 gas, if no F-pack then go adding finning agent, stir again (degassing). Seal or replace bung with airlock and let sit for 14 days.

After this check to see if it cleared, if not wait until it does clear, when it clears you want to be gentle if you have to move the carboy, if you move it and it disturbs the lees or sediment leave a day or so, and let it settle back down, then you can (leaving sediment behind) , bottle your wine.
The main thing is do not stir again, after stirring at degassing and adding your packages. you do not stir again if you do you have to wait until it clears before you bottle.

Hope this helps and I hope I didn't misunderstand you post. 

Thanks


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> Would love to get your thoughts based on these instructions. Wondering if it's me wrong or it.



Are you using the fast fermenter that has a collection ball underneath it?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden

Hi 
If you are using the fast fermenter with the collection ball this is probably the way to do it.

Do step one, after adding yeast let ferment 5 to 7 days. At 1.010 drop the sediment.
Let sit 10 to 14 days. Your wanting a Sg at 0.996 or less at this reading ADD your packets while degassing if you have F-pack add ,if not add clearing agent (stir out gas) degassing. Let it sit for 14 days, if clear drop sediment ,if not clear, leave 7 more days. If clear drop out sediment at ball. At this time you should be able to bottle.

These Fast Fermenters will have advantages and disadvantages. You will have to learn them.
The disadvantage will be at the 14th day of clearing(needing to take a clean sample of your wine,(to see if it is clear) because your ball will have sediment in it, you would need to do this from the top, BUT if you open the top you introduce oxygen.) So this is a disadvantage, making you drop a little more wine from the ball. Which will make your first bottle be cloudy, which could be filtered and drank by you while you bottle. Which would be an advantage to me lol.
So if your wine is still sitting in the fast fermenter , let it sit and clear, when it is clear, drop sediment from ball, then bottle.
If you need help ask there are very smart people on this forum. 

Billpizzaiolo uses two of these fast fermenters he would be very a knowledgeable person to ask.

Thanks!!


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## laceyogden (Feb 8, 2016)

So if I get a sample from the top, it is clear but from the bottom, it is still very murky. I will put the collection ball back on and dump that amount and see if it's clear after that.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> So if I get a sample from the top, it is clear but from the bottom, it is still very murky. I will put the collection ball back on and dump that amount and see if it's clear after that.



Do you have a glass carboy, if so what size?


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## laceyogden (Feb 8, 2016)

Sure don't... Just the fast ferment system that our brew shop recommended over the glass carboys.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> Sure don't... Just the fast ferment system that our brew shop recommended over the glass carboys.



Have you opened the top since you degassed?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> So if I get a sample from the top, it is clear but from the bottom, it is still very murky. I will put the collection ball back on and dump that amount and see if it's clear after that.



Ok reading back thru the post I stopped here, where you say you get a sample from the top. If you did by opening the lid, and it's not ready to bottle, you will probably want to get some Private Preserve from you local brewery store. I believe it's around 10 bucks, and spray it into the top to force the oxygen out, and replace lid, and wait till it clears then bottle. I have not used one of these fermenters, so I am in the dark and assuming you have to open lid for upper access. Don't get discouraged you'll figure out how to "get er done". Hope I'm helping and not hindering. 

If I'm hindering please let me know, and we will find more knowledgeable help.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> So if I get a sample from the top, it is clear but from the bottom, it is still very murky. I will put the collection ball back on and dump that amount and see if it's clear after that.



What did you find out? What answers were hidden inside the ball? Kinda like fortune telling. The curiosity is getting the best of me.
I'm thinking about getting one of these fermenters. 

Thanks


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## laceyogden (Feb 8, 2016)

So, I reattached the collection ball and allowed for it to fill up and I ended up dumping it. There was just a small amount of sediment but it was very murky. I then took a sample from the bottom and it was clear so I think it needed to just be racked before bottling. I will probably leave it for another week or so before bottling just to be sure. I highly recommend the FastFerment though... It's been so easy and fun to use!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 9, 2016)

laceyogden said:


> So, I reattached the collection ball and allowed for it to fill up and I ended up dumping it. There was just a small amount of sediment but it was very murky. I then took a sample from the bottom and it was clear so I think it needed to just be racked before bottling. I will probably leave it for another week or so before bottling just to be sure. I highly recommend the FastFerment though... It's been so easy and fun to use!



Thank you!!


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