# How was wine made hundreds of years ago without all the chemicals we have today?



## WineStream (Feb 16, 2013)

Hi all:

I have been reading at this site for some time now, searching as well. I haven't found any answer to my conundrum, so here goes:

Something that has bothered me about wine making since I started (which wasn't long ago in the relative scheme of things) is the number of chemicals that one is supposed to use when making wine. Some hundreds of years ago, I can't imagine that wine makers had Campden, metabisulphate, sorbate, acid testers, pH testers, hydrometers, acid blend, clarifying agents, let alone sanitizers! So how did they do it?

I've done the kit thing, and yeah, it turns out OK to great, but I hate that I'm dumping packs of things into the wine that makes me cringe because I'm not sure if I can even pronounce the chemical(s).

What am I missing? Why is the common method of wine making so chemically intensive? I do not envision the people of 500 or so years ago washing out their barrel, bucket, or whatever with sanitizer. The primary fermentation was probably done with a cloth laid over the top of the bucket, likely a wooden bucket. Secondaries might have been glass with an airlock, but I'm sure they didn't have a degassing paddle on a drill. I'm thinking their siphon was a hose made of canvas or some animal's entrails and it was likely started but sucking on the low end. Bottles were probably hard to seal with a cork (if they had corks) because the glass would have been manually blown. We're sure they were eating, drinking, and being merry and we're sure it included wine. So how could they make it with out "modern technology"?

Has anyone else contemplated this? What have you found? Why can't wine be made "simply"?


----------



## dralarms (Feb 16, 2013)

They drank it faster and there were not as many bad bacteria.


----------



## Stefani (Feb 16, 2013)

With the advent of wood barrels, coopers would bend the planks of the barrel with coal fire. 

Would the smoke of coal fire add sulfates to the wine?

Wine and beer was also safer to drink than the water because, of the alcohol in the wine and beer. 

Hence the toast...To good health!


----------



## DoctorCAD (Feb 16, 2013)

You are right, none of the things you mentioned are NECESSARY for wine making.

Just like seat belts, power brakes, fuel injection, dual clutch transmissions, and air bags are not NECESSARY when making a car.

Are 1952 cars better than 2013 cars, are 1952 wines better than 2013 wines?????

Science has simply made winemaking easier for us all, just like science has made almost everything easier for us all.


----------



## btom2004 (Feb 16, 2013)

Basically wine making is the same now, as it was ages ago. The only thing that has evolved is the the need to mass produce this stuff to supply the world. The science of todays time only insures, that your wine stays fresh and bacteria free. However you can still make wine as they did ages ago without any of the chemicals we use. 

If you place juice in a vesal it would decay and ferment into wine, without the addition of anything. The natural yeast, which is present on all fruit will do it's thing. However would you think it safe to drink? How soon after fermenting before it spoils? How long would you wait until it's cleared enough to drink? ect. 

All of these questions fast forward to today's time...hence the things we now know and do to wine to make it great.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Feb 17, 2013)

They didn't add much 500 yrs ago....but the life expectancy was 36 yrs old.....


----------



## Deezil (Feb 17, 2013)

It can be made "simply", but it comes with some limitations/restrictions.

Yes, they drank wine ages ago - this we've all heard - but what you dont hear much about is how much wine went bad, or how many winemakers found better livings in the vinegar business. 

Wine can still be made "traditionally", and we've all heard stories on this forum of someones uncle/father/grandfather/friend who makes wine the old-fashioned way, and some of them turn out decent/nice wines... But it doesnt last, the wine that is... Maybe a year, tops - but definitely not long enough to "peak"

And you dont hear much about the menagerie of things they DID add to the wine - oak being one of the few that actually worked out... Lead, animal entrails, among a few that didnt..

When you go back in history, they didnt always store their wine in glass with corks... Wasnt really until the last few centuries for that, i'm sure - wine used to be kept in clay jars, such as amphora, that were sometimes lined with beeswax.. Most were sealed with organic stoppers that didnt survive but archaeologists have removed fragments of ancient wines from inside some amphora - in greece, egypt, etc...


----------



## Craiger (Feb 17, 2013)

There are alot of factors. The use of chemicals allows for more tailoring of tastes. For instance, if I want to back sweeten (and store my wine for any length of time) I have to add potassium sorbate and sulfites. Back then, they wouldn't have done that. 

Also, if we're speaking about sulfites, they pretty much guarantee a product won't spoil. A commercial winery can't afford to have their product spoil, so they're going to do whatever it takes to ensure that won't happen.

Having said that, I think we go too nuts with that stuff (sulfites in particular, and even sanitation). We have super hot water and detergents that they never had back then, and I would be willing to bet that more times than not, they ended up with wine instead of vinegar (or else the tradition would be vinegar making, and not winemaking), even without sulfites, and a proper sanitation regimen.

I've been making wine for 7 years. The last few years, I never use sulfites or sanitize anything when I'm making wine from grapes (I just made the dragon blood recipe and used all the recommended chemicasl). I've never made vinegar or had wine spoil. Yes, I drink my wine within a couple of years. And my wine is very good. Not great, but very good.

I have a friend who's been making wine without sulfites (or using "proper" sanitation techniques) for over 40 years. In all that time he's made one batch of wine that was so bad he wouldn't give it away, and that was because he let the grapes sit too long before he crushed and they were getting moldy.

So, sulfites and chemicals ensure a product that won't spoil. They are also used to "improve" wine, or at least tailor it to individual preferences. They are not necessary, and hundreds of thousands of people continue to prove that, but you usually won't find that type of person on an internet forum.


----------



## deboard (Feb 17, 2013)

What you are referring to as Traditional Winemakers were in fact, just winemakers using the latest techniques to make the best wine they could. They weren't intentionally leaving things out in the name of the art. In fact, they probably put some horrifying things in their wine in attempts to make it better/keep longer. Since they didn't know about sulfites, they could not choose to use them. That is very different from intentionally following old methods. 

They didn't know about sulfites, but if they did, I guarantee you the vast majority would have used them, just as they do today. 

The same things that spoil wine today existed then, and my guess is that they tried everything they could think of to protect their wine. Sure, there were probably a few who weren't sure about the latest development (using beeswax as a seal for example), and decided in favor of using the old method (whatever that might have been). But in general, winemakers have always used the latest technology, and always will.


----------



## WineStream (Feb 17, 2013)

DoctorCAD said:


> You are right, none of the things you mentioned are NECESSARY for wine making.
> 
> Just like seat belts, power brakes, fuel injection, dual clutch transmissions, and air bags are not NECESSARY when making a car.
> 
> ...



Given that my career is in the automotive industry and being a car guy, I can totally relate to this analogy. It's ironic that you mention double clutch transmissions since this is specifically the sub-industry that I work in 

Using your analogy, I can understand better. Based on the quantity of wine that my wife, friends, and I consume; we need the mass quantity wine that comes from chemical-infused commercial wine. This would be the "daily driver" car, something average, family car, made in the last 10 years. Then there's the special, homemade wines; limited supply, not something you drink everyday. This would be akin to say, a 71 Corvette that spends most of it's life under a cover in the garage and only comes out when the weather is nice. At some point though, it's all gone and it has to wait until a new batch is ready. At least for those of us in the north, it's like putting the 'Vette away for winter.

Thanks for the excellent clarification.


----------



## WineStream (Feb 17, 2013)

Craiger said:


> Having said that, I think we go too nuts with that stuff (sulfites in particular, and even sanitation). We have super hot water and detergents that they never had back then, and I would be willing to bet that more times than not, they ended up with wine instead of vinegar (or else the tradition would be vinegar making, and not winemaking), even without sulfites, and a proper sanitation regimen.
> 
> I've been making wine for 7 years. The last few years, I never use sulfites or sanitize anything when I'm making wine from grapes (I just made the dragon blood recipe and used all the recommended chemicasl). I've never made vinegar or had wine spoil. Yes, I drink my wine within a couple of years. And my wine is very good. Not great, but very good.



This is perhaps my current status as well. I didn't elaborate on it in the IP because I didn't want to taint people's responses by thinking that I have too much of a predisposition. Over my 1.5 years of wine making (thanks to a 1 gal. kit from my wife as a Christmas present!), I've made kits, fruits, juices, and straight-up grapes direct from the vine; and of course I now have a whole host of primary buckets, carboys, siphons, etc. I've had some epic fails (apple cider), and one batch from grapes that got poured out. But I've had some really great stuff, too. But, aside for the kits, I try to use very little chemicals if any at all. I do use a sanitizer on my carboys, bottles, and corks. But, when I'm using the thief or racking, I typically just rinse the tools with the hottest possible water. For me, fermentation is done when the yeast dies or there's no more sugar. I was very surprised when I first started reading in this forum that there's not a lot of discussion of such natural winemaking.

Perhaps the biggest factor for why I wonder why natural winemaking isn't discussed more is what's been mentioned here already: time to consumption. I'm impatient by nature. People write about storing wine for months in carboys and years in bottles. That doesn't happen for me. If my wine is in a carboy for more than a month it's because I've been too busy to put it into bottles. Consumption in our house is about a little over 1L per day. If we want some homemade stuff, I go downstairs with a carafe and draw off a liter. If I had a batch of wine still around after a year, I'd probably pour it out on principle because it would mean I didn't like it enough to have drunk it in that time.

Thanks to all for the input here. It has clarified some things for me. I will continue to enjoy reading and hopefully contributing here.


----------



## BobF (Feb 17, 2013)

deboard said:


> ...
> 
> They didn't know about sulfites, but if they did, I guarantee you the vast majority would have used them, just as they do today.
> 
> ...



Sulfite has ALWAYS been part of the winemaking process! Just b/c winemakers didn't know about it, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

SO2 is a natural byproduct of alcoholic fermentation


----------



## Craiger (Feb 17, 2013)

Winestream,
Yes, I think we are similar. I want to drink good wine. I know the way I make it from grapes (no sulfites and I don't add yeast) is good. I have no problem serving it to guests or giving it away. It's a great table wine. Having said that, it's not fine wine, and it's not wine that I will age for more than 2 years. Most of my wine is gone within a year. 

I'm very happy with that, and I've proven (as has my friend who's made wine for about 40 years) that hot water and detergents do a very adequate job of removing bacteria that will cause spoilage. I just like using little to no chemicals. Do I think those chemicals are horrible, dangerous things? No. I do use them for other types of wine I make. I just enjoy having my grape wines as pure as is reasonably possible.

I think our methods aren't discussed more on forums because as I mentioned, a lot of the guys using these methods don't spend their time on forums. They might just be simple old-fashioned guys. Also, the reality is, there isn't much to discuss when talking about traditional ways: crush, ferment, rack, rack some more, bottle. Not much to talk about.

I enjoy this forum because despite my simple ways of making wine, I really benefit from the knowlege of the people here and it helps me understand (and remedy) some problems when I run into them.


----------



## tingo (Feb 17, 2013)

Necessity is the mother of all invention, but that being said I agree with a lot of what is being said here. Tools are easily under stood: crushers were simply stomping feet, presses were wood planks with weights for pressure or even sacks like our strain bags, and corks were wood plugs driven in by mallets. As for airlocks, i know from my family that italians used to pour olive oil on top of thier wine in the barrels. This was their airlock. As the wine level lowered the oil remained on top blocking out oxygen. As equipment began being manufactured, olive oil also became their "food grade grease". Since they were making wine from fresh fruit and not kits there was no preservation of juice needed. The acidity, tannin, and alcohol were their main means of preservation. Also we use sulfites to kill off or stun wild yeasts so that we may reinoculate with a cultured strain. Since these strains only began production after Louis pastuers discovery of their involvement in wine making, wild yeast was a necessity to them. Now I assume clarification was of little concern to early winemakers but when it did become the norm.....who the heck suggested they try ox blood?!!! Must be the same guy who suggested we start eating prairie oysters! Lol


----------



## GreginND (Feb 17, 2013)

I also tend toward less additives. Although I will not make wine without added sulfite.

In the "old" days they drank the wine as it was fermented - usually dry. If they wanted it sweet they sweetened it when they served it or used other methods to stop fermentation like alcohol addition (e.g. Port).

As many people like sweeter wines the use of stabilizers (sorbate) has become an important part of winemaking. People somehow have an aversion to adding some simple syrup to their wine when they pour it. But you can do that and not worry about trying to stabilize. Keep the wine dry. Of course that makes it more difficult to control the sweetness level. On the other hand it allows each person to have the sweetness level they like.

Just some thoughts. There are some good articles about how wines have changed with modern techniques - for the better.


----------



## btom2004 (Feb 17, 2013)

WineStream said:


> If I had a batch of wine still around after a year, I'd probably pour it out on principle because it would mean I didn't like it enough to have drunk it in that time.


 You should know by now after reading this forum, it may take one to two years of aging; before some wine even begin to taste good. Think about that the next time you pour out a wine, that is just still too young to taste good. Flavor improves with age. Look at it this way. Say to yourself...ok I don't want to drink it this year, I'll sample it again next year. Give it a few years of bulk aging.


----------



## BobR (Feb 17, 2013)

DoctorCAD said:


> Are 1952 cars better than 2013 cars, are 1952 wines better than 2013 wines?????



WineStream, Craiger, tingo and GreginND:

I agree, it would be nice to have a forum where "old school" wine making could be discussed, but I am not sure that any of the current "old timers" would have much input. I found out first hand last fall, that even modern equipment does not compute with an old school wine maker. I wanted to make Concord wine from someone who would have the old recipe. I found out that recipes did not exist. As I was told by one old guy, I make it as I go along. Things change from one batch to the other and there is nothing that I can write down for you. He also insisted that I have a clay crock, an oak barrel. When I told him that I have a plastic bucket and a carboy, he didn't have any idea of what I was talking about and he never offered to help any after that. He used no yeast and had no idea of what a campden tablet would be used for.
I will say one thing, whenever this old school topic is brought up, it sure stirs up a hornets nest. I guess it would be like if I was interested in restoring 1952 model cars, that would be a waste of time. Why invest the time and money in a '52 car when I could go out and buy a new car for the same price that the '52 would cost to completely restore. Yeah, I think that there are a lot of things that where better 50 years ago, beginning with our pride and life style. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=550154135009477&set=vb.100000446875683&type=2&theater


----------



## WineStream (Feb 17, 2013)

BobR said:


> I found out that recipes did not exist. As I was told by one old guy, I make it as I go along. Things change from one batch to the other and there is nothing that I can write down for you. He also insisted that I have a clay crock, an oak barrel. When I told him that I have a plastic bucket and a carboy, he didn't have any idea of what I was talking about and he never offered to help any after that. He used no yeast and had no idea of what a campden tablet would be used for.



I would have to agree with your "old guy". When I get my juice straight from the local grower, I ask them not to kill the wild yeast. When I get the juice home, I add nothing to it. I use a plastic bucket and carboys of plastic and glass, but I wish I had oak barrels. I have to say that I have a little plastic bottle with campden tablets, but I don't know when I've used one.

Sounds like his "recipie" is good.


----------



## BobR (Feb 17, 2013)

WineStream,

Yeah, the only thing that honked me off about him was, he was after me to get grapes and then he would show me how he, his father and his grandfather had always made wine. After buying the grapes and driving six hours round trip to get them, he didn't offer any help once he found out that I didn't have a clay crock and that I planned on using a plastic bucket and then I just had to have a barrel. I could not age wine in a carboy. When I picked the grapes up from the vineyard, they told me that I would need to add sugar to increase the brix and he flipped out, since he didn't use any extra sugar. Oh well, some day I will give old school a try. 
My grandfather died back in 1973 and he had been making Concord wine since 1936. He had a vineyard out on the farm and his wine making room was a dirt floor room in the basement of this 100 year old farm house. There was no running water down there. In fact, the only running water he ever had came from a cistern and for drinking water, he would go out a get a bucket of water from the old hand pump well. There was one light bulb in this room and he used no yeast that I know of. He had two old, dusty wine barrels and a wood framed wine press and of course a large clay crock. He never bottled his wine, it just stayed in the barrels, but that was the best Concord that I have ever had. I have never found anything that has ever come close. Some day, I will make his wine and when I do, it will be a proud moment for me. I only wish that I would have learned from him on how to grow grapes and make wine, but when you are young and stupid, you don't give any thought to these things. Now that I'm old and stupid, I kick myself for not learning a lot of things that he did out on the farm. If any of you ever hear of any old school Concord recipes, please keep me in mind.


----------



## mmadmikes1 (Feb 18, 2013)

I never add sorbate, even when backsweeting. I have now reach the point of not using K Meta as an additive art all either. I have some wonderful wine 3 and 4 years old and a lot of mead with nothing in it as well. You need to boil most of your equipment and allow time for wine to age before bottling. To control oxidation, I control O2. I age in corny kegs that I bleed off O2 and fill dead space with CO2. I still have not had a untreated wine go bad and can not say same about wines I made while still adding chemicals. It is as simple as control the micros and control; the O2. When wine is finished the alcohol will control the micros, I still have to prevent oxidation. No, you dont have to add chemicals, but you will need to be a bit anal and have a willingness to allow more aging time before bottling. I am bulk aging about a year and 1/2 these days


----------



## Bartman (Feb 18, 2013)

WineStream said:


> Something that has bothered me about wine making since I started (which wasn't long ago in the relative scheme of things) is the number of chemicals that one is supposed to use when making wine. Some hundreds of years ago, I can't imagine that wine makers had Campden, metabisulphate, sorbate, acid testers, pH testers, hydrometers, acid blend, clarifying agents, let alone sanitizers! So how did they do it?
> 
> We're sure they were eating, drinking, and being merry and we're sure it included wine. So how could they make it with out "modern technology"?
> 
> Has anyone else contemplated this? What have you found? Why can't wine be made "simply"?



Yeah, I have to agree with early posters that said if we all just did things in the simplest effective manner, there would be little need or reason for a discussion forum. I avoid using most of the chemicals in kit wines and don't sweat the adequacy of my sanitizing efforts. It's telling that there is little/no comment from the forum folks I know enjoy the chemistry, testing and adjustment that goes into (typically) modern, mass-production wine practices/procedures. To each his own, ya know?

Two observations came to mind in reading this thread - 1) the alcohol in the wine has always been the primary preservative, and that was the 'magic' of fermenting fresh food for later consumption. What other edible liquid can be stored at room temperature for months or years without specialized canning or preservative equipment? Oil and water, but neither are both nutritious and drinkable. That alcohol (which could be called an 'added chemical' if you want to be technical) killed off the bad microbes early on and kept them at bay however the wine was stored. Oxidation, on the other hand, was probably the bugger threat, most of the time, depending on how the wine was stored.

2) Which reminded me of the Hemingway novel, "For Whom the Bell Tolls", about the Spanish Civil War a few years before WWII. In it, the fugitive guerrillas move through the countryside and one of the critical items the group would move from place to place was the 'wineskin'. Tha was often their only source of available potable fluid, but it was drunk fairly quickly soon so oxidation wasn't as much of an issue. Here's Wikipedia's description:

A *bota bag* or *wineskin* is a traditional Spanish liquid receptacle. Typically, it is made of leather (when made of goatskin it is known as a goatskin itself), and is used to carry wine, although any liquid will do.
Traditionally, bota bags were lined with goat bladders or in other cases tree sap or other resins were used to prevent liquids from seeping through. The nozzle, traditionally in horn, is fixed by a red collar. The zahato is carried across the shoulder with the red cord which surrounds it along the seam.
Modern bota bags have a plastic liner and nozzle. 



I don't plan on using that 'traditional' method, but it is fascinating to see how people 'made do' in ages gone by.


----------



## Arne (Feb 18, 2013)

Now I assume clarification was of little concern to early winemakers but when it did become the norm.....who the heck suggested they try ox blood?!!! Must be the same guy who suggested we start eating prairie oysters! Lol[/QUOTE]

I believe it was the same guy that said "Hey Oog, I believe I'll set this vat of grape juice in the back of the cave and save it. That way next spring we will have some fresh juice to drink." LOL, Arne.


----------



## Craiger (Feb 18, 2013)

BobR said:


> WineStream,
> 
> My grandfather died back in 1973 and he had been making Concord wine since 1936. He had a vineyard out on the farm and his wine making room was a dirt floor room in the basement of this 100 year old farm house. There was no running water down there. In fact, the only running water he ever had came from a cistern and for drinking water, he would go out a get a bucket of water from the old hand pump well. There was one light bulb in this room and he used no yeast that I know of. He had two old, dusty wine barrels and a wood framed wine press and of course a large clay crock. He never bottled his wine, it just stayed in the barrels, but that was the best Concord that I have ever had. I have never found anything that has ever come close. Some day, I will make his wine and when I do, it will be a proud moment for me. I only wish that I would have learned from him on how to grow grapes and make wine, but when you are young and stupid, you don't give any thought to these things. Now that I'm old and stupid, I kick myself for not learning a lot of things that he did out on the farm. If any of you ever hear of any old school Concord recipes, please keep me in mind.


I love that story! I started making wine without sulfites and yeast, because of the stories and traditions I heard about my great grandfather. Every time I take a sip of mine,for better or worse, (but as I've said, I've yet to have a bad bottle), it's a tribute to him, a man I never met. I hope you make your grandfather's wine some day and when you do, be sure to make the first toast to him. And yeah, you can make "better" wine by using the modern methods, but his wine is the "best"!


----------



## BobR (Feb 18, 2013)

Craiger,
Yeah, I think that some people are tired of the hi-tech rat race that we now live in and I think more are wanting to return to their roots. Not just in wine making, but I have seen people who enjoy organic gardening, growing your own herbs and getting away from hybrid plants. There are soap makers and woodworkers out there who only use hand tools. I'm not saying that old school wine making is the best, it's just nice to find a group that has an interest in that type of stuff. It brings back memories of playing in my grandfathers vineyard, eating the grapes and having someone slip me a little Concord wine.
Back in the early 1900's, the town that I grew up in was an Italian emigrant coal mining town. My grandfather lived in town until he bought the farm in 1936. These "old timers" all had big yards, big gardens, a few fruit trees and most had a Concord vineyard and they made homemade wine. The "transplants" that would arrive later called it **** red and they enjoyed every drop of it. Oh my gosh, my neighbor would make wine in his basement and he would open all of the windows when it was fermenting. That smell, on a good day it would fill the whole neighborhood. During my high school years, I cut grass for these old timers and even by then, the Concords were still there. In 1988, we moved outside of town, out next to the old farm, in which most is still in the family. In 2007, it dawned on me, all of those Concords were now gone. I was able to find a few families that still had a few vines left. By now, the kids of these families are in their late 80's to mid-90's. Since 2009, I have been trying to preserve this old Concord variety that was planted from 1902 to 1918. I have been getting some cuttings every year, but have not had a great success rate on getting them started. I'll try again next month, but with these people now dying off, I think that the days of the remaining Concords are numbered. Oh well, it's been fun and I do have Concords from four families and the rows are named after each Italian family where the cutting came from. Nope, not trying to change the world....just trying to enjoy it.


----------



## jswordy (Feb 18, 2013)

*How was wine made hundreds of years ago without all the chemicals we have today?*

Unevenly. People who made it consistently and well in Jesus time were considered to be sort of magicians with a direct connection to God to do this. That is why changing water to wine at the wedding was a cool thing Jesus did in the Bible. 

My grandfather made it without chemicals or even packaged yeast in the '60s, and there are lots and lots of immigrant and second-gen families (particularly in the Midwest) who still make it that way today.

The "chemical way" is entirely intended to help assure you *good* and *directly repeatable* results, then make it so you can store it longer. That is why it evolved. You're right, it is not necessary to making wine. When I was 9, I made wine out of Hi-C grape juice in a jar with bread yeast. It is also not necessary to making good wine. My grandfather made an excellent white with no chemicals.

But making wine without the "chemical way" is extremely difficult, and somewhat like catching lightning in a jar when it comes to repeatability across batches. It's demanding because you must be a slave to tiny details to get repeatability, and if you go all the way and use just the wild yeast present to start off, it requires careful attention to the grapes you use, where they come from, and how they are handled. All of those can make a bad batch, whereas with the "chemical way," you start off fairly sterile and create the yeast population you want.

The chemicals have stripped away the "magician's" role and turned basic winemaking into something that is as easy as following a recipe. It has opened winemaking to a much larger crowd.

As I have posted before, I always tend to  when people talk about not wanting any bad chemicals in their wine, since the primary chemical being produced is:

http://www.nafaa.org/ethanol.pdf


----------



## BobR (Feb 18, 2013)

jswordy said:


> *
> My grandfather made it without chemicals or even packaged yeast in the '60s, and there are lots and lots of immigrant and second-gen families (particularly in the Midwest) who still make it that way today.*


*

Getting harder to find these people. Last summer I attended an Italian Festival in Peoria, IL. I bumped into a few old timers that had been wine makers in their day and none had a written recipe and when I showed them one that I found on line, they looked at it like it was Greek to them. Oh well, it would be nice to hear from anyone who had success stories to tell.*


----------



## mmadmikes1 (Feb 18, 2013)

part of the magic of fermenting with wild yeast is simple. The same strain of yeast live in the same vineyards year in and year out making a consistent wine possible. I learned to make wine from my grandfather. He made lousy wine. Always had some oxidation. Never enough to make it undrinkable. Part of living in a place called Grapeview was wine grapes. Most of the wineries there are gone now. Fond memories


----------



## BobR (Feb 18, 2013)

Yeah, I hear ya on the fond memories!


----------



## JohnT (Feb 19, 2013)

If I may weigh in here.. 

I like the old saying... Those that do not learn from the past are condemmed to repeat it. Quite simply, the good old days were not so good. Take the phylloxera epidemic of the 19th and 20th centuries. Why, without modern science and techniques, there would not be a single vitis vinifera grape anywhere in the world.

Think of it as benefiting from thousands of years of experience. From time to time, I have seen posts that recomend action based on folklore and not scientific fact ("do not rack during a full moon" for example). 

*I can not begin to measure the true debt I owe the wonderful people on this forum.* With their help, I eventually was able to seperate folklore from fact. It is still an ongoing process and even with over 25 years of winemaking experience, I find still I have things to learn. 

I come from a long line of winemakers. To me, using modern techniques does not reflect poorly on my ancesters. If they were alive today, and could taste the results, I am sure that they would be very proud of me. 

Finally, you would be very surprised at how much of these chemicals were actually used in the past. For example, "sulphur sticks" have been used for sterlizing barrels. Sulphur is still being used, just in a different, more easy to use form (k-meta). 

Another example is the fact that Malo-lactic fermentation was natrually occuring in France for (potentially) thousands of years. The French were simply unaware of it and was only discovered through scientific analysis. 

One last note: Let your own tongue decide on what you prefer to do. Perform a blind tasting with organic wines against simular non-organic wines. If you are like me, you may find most organic wines are not as good. I feel that most will choose organic simply because they are organic and not because they are better and more enjoyable. (I know that others may disagree with me here, all I am saying is decide for yourself).


----------



## Bartman (Feb 19, 2013)

JohnT, 
Somewhat along those lines is that Kosher Wine share a lot of similarities to organic wines (except while the grapes are growing). But they rarely taste as good to me as non-kosher wines, although I haven't tasted many unsweetened kosher wines. Kosher winemakers (who must be male) cannot use many of the fining agents we take for granted as available, but they can use bentonite and egg whites (I think). There's a lot more to it, if you want to study it.

Now, THAT is old-school winemaking, and I think it woiuld be pretty tough to make a very good dry red using those methods.


----------



## jswordy (Feb 19, 2013)

BobR said:


> Getting harder to find these people. Last summer I attended an Italian Festival in Peoria, IL. I bumped into a few old timers that had been wine makers in their day and none had a written recipe and when I showed them one that I found on line, they looked at it like it was Greek to them. Oh well, it would be nice to hear from anyone who had success stories to tell.



Like Mad Mike said, it was all about where you got your grapes. You could also inoculate your own vines with yeast from elsewhere by dumping the lees and used grapes around your plants. Over several years, the vine got inoculated with that strain. That's how they have done it for hundreds of years in Europe.

My Italian grandpa used to order 36 lugs of grapes, zinfandel and some red too, and make a red rose and some white wine. He would make wine once a year, with two pressings. The first would be all grape juice and maybe just enough sugar to get it going. The second would involve the skins from the first and water and sugar. So he had one shot a year at getting it right. His wines were very dry.

His grapes came from California, and he bought them through a local supermarket. He experimented with other types of grapes, but they did not have the proper yeasts he liked. He would load up a great big car with lugs of grapes when they came in. Every seat and the trunk would be full, and grandpa would drive them home. My uncles used to help him make the wine, as boys and young adults.

He stomped his grapes in a wooden half-barrel, fermented in wooden half-barrels, pressed them with a press he made out of an old hand letterpress, and kept the wine in six oak barrels in the basement. No carboys and etc. 

He would drink a very small glass - a little bigger than a shot glass - of wine with each meal. At holiday family gatherings, he would break it out more freely. I did get my share of tastes as a small boy. I still remember him coming in on summer days from tending his large garden and sitting down to a bowl of my grandma's soup with that small glass of wine.

He had a group of winemaking friends, all Italian immigrants, and they would gather from time to time and bring their wines and taste them and talk about methods they used to produce them. My grandpa was very proud of the wine he made, though I can't say on here what he called it.

When I was 10 and he was diagnosed with leukemia, the docs still permitted him to have his daily small glasses of wine. They said it wouldn't hurt him and might keep his spirits up. So he had wine all the way up to his last several days on Earth.

We used to have quite a few artisanal winemakers on the forum.


----------



## BobR (Feb 19, 2013)

jswordy,

Really enjoyed your story! When my grandfather died in '73, the family took out the old vineyard (I now have a few grapes on that same hillside) and sold just the old farm house, which turned out to be a big mistake. Now you have a total stranger in the middle of the property. In fact, while planting grapes last spring, the present owner came over and told me that his wife did not like the grapes being planted there. Well anyway, the house over the years had changed hands twice. When it was put up for sale a third time, the owner came over and told me that there was an old grape press in the basement and asked if I'd be interested in it. Well, I just about knocked her over getting to the thing and to my surprise, it was my grandfathers old press. My brother and I lugged it out and I cleaned it up and still have it down stairs. There was no basket with it and there was no sign of his old clay crock, or his two wine barrels. She said that only the press was there when she bought the house. Oh well, after 35 years, I felt lucky just to get that. Yeah, I too can remember the old Italian immigrants gathering out at the farm for an afternoon and just sitting around drinking wine. That's when they would slip me some wine. What a smell and flavor.....smooth and then a little later, you'd break out in a cold sweat.


----------



## kevinlfifer (Feb 19, 2013)

I have nothing to add, but what a great series of postings.


----------



## robie (Feb 19, 2013)

I am really enjoying this thread. I truly wish my family had had a background in vineyards and wine making; maybe they did but I sure don't know about it. I love to hear about all your relatives of the past and how they made wine.

In about 3 months, I am privileged to be taking a 10-day trip to the wine regions of Italy, where I have never been before and until recently, every even hoped to see. I'm looking forward to seeing homesteads and wineries that were built hundreds of years ago; and of course a bunch of much newer ones, too. It's all good!

I understand some wanting to adhere to the old ways and also the idea that many of the old timers just might have appreciated some of our newer methods and techniques. Now that I am older and hopefully a little wiser, there is something so very special about the past and the pioneers of days gone by, who have steered us to where we are today, many of them not even realizing that they were. Where would we be without them...

I am one of hopefully only a few individuals who have no idea of my family history. I know nothing about my grand parents' parents; from where they originated or for what they stood. I had little exposure to my grandparents and didn't think to start asking questions until they and my parents were already gone. I don't know if I am Irish, English, or German. Sort of a lonely feeling.

Good for you gals and guys, who learned from the previous generation(s) and are carrying on, maybe still in the same older style or maybe you've even incorporated some new techniques. As I said above, it's all good.

I believe that when you try to make wine the way your grandpa did, or maybe even your great grandpa, what an honor that is to be able to carry-on that tradition. Every time you do that, you are honoring them and your heritage.

Thanks again for this thread. It's all good.


----------



## jswordy (Feb 19, 2013)

BobR, that looks just like an old letter press to me! They used to use them to print handbills and ad posters. So cool that you have your grandpa's!

I'd like to say that the tradition continued in my family, but it didn't. My uncles did not make wine as they married and had families, so it all died with grandpa. One of them has his press, I think, but I'll never see it or get to use it again. Now my second cousins had a guy, Dominic, who had a vineyard and became a vintner, even started a small company. But I guess I sort of picked it up more from a desire to drink my own stuff and have cheaper good-tasting wine than anything else.

Funny how it works, though. The more I made wine, the more memories came back, even though I am not doing it like grandpa did. I was barely 11 when he died, and I recall one winemaking day - very vaguely, just enough to know that was what was going on back then.

My uncle Joe said that as boys they would have to reach down into a barrel to scoop up fermented grapes to be pressed "and you could get stoned just by breathing down there."


----------



## BobR (Feb 19, 2013)

robie said:


> In about 3 months, I am privileged to be taking a 10-day trip to the wine regions of Italy, where I have never been before and until recently, every even hoped to see. I'm looking forward to seeing homesteads and wineries that were built hundreds of years ago; and of course a bunch of much newer ones, too. It's all good!



Robie,

Thanks so much for your kind words! But I must say, WOW, a 10 day Italian wine regions trip! When you get back, you will be the new expert on "old school" wine making. I'm sorry to say that I just don't fly, or I'd be jumping at the chance to go with you. My daughter has been there twice and I have had family and friends who go over for two week vacations and they all just love it. A close friend went over last summer and they took him on winery tours in the Abruzzo region where our families had come from. My daughter told me that she would have no problem on moving there, so I do hope that you are in for a good time. Of course 4 months from now, we will expect to see a lot of photos and hear a lot of wine and vineyard stories.


----------



## BobR (Feb 19, 2013)

jswordy said:


> that looks just like an old letter press to me! They used to use them to print handbills and ad posters.



Beats me, you could be very well right on this press. Growing up, I always remembered that press sitting on the dirt floor of his wine room. It always sat in the middle of the room, right under the only light bulb. Yeah, I'm like you, neither my dad, his two brothers or sister ever had anything to do with wine making. Once my grandfather died, they had no idea of how he made it. They never helped, or even watched.
I mentioned earlier that when I was growing up, our neighbor made wine in his basement. He died quite a few years ago, but after his wife died in 2011 my dad bought the house for rental property and when we were cleaning out the basement, I got that old press out of there. It's a more modern press like what you could buy today, but that thing has got to be at least 50 years old. I cleaned the rust off of the legs, soaked and scrubbed the basket in OxyClean and painted it. I never planned on using it, but last fall, I bought 144 pounds of Concords from a winery and I used it to press the grapes.


----------



## Craiger (Feb 19, 2013)

kevinlfifer said:


> I have nothing to add, but what a great series of postings.



I'm with you. 

The only thing I will add is that the stories shared in this post are why I make my grape wine the traditional way. For me, I feel a connection to my past (mine is Polish, not Italian). I feel I'm part of that tradition. For me it's less about the taste of the wine and more about paying tribute. 

Some would argue that regardless of how the wine is made, and the chemicals that are added, we're still part of the tradition. I wouldn't argue that point. It's all in your point of view.


----------



## Deezil (Feb 19, 2013)

robie said:


> I am one of hopefully only a few individuals who have no idea of my family history. I know nothing about my grand parents' parents; from where they originated or for what they stood. I had little exposure to my grandparents and didn't think to start asking questions until they and my parents were already gone. I don't know if I am Irish, English, or German. Sort of a lonely feeling.



Not to derail this thread, but... I had this problem myself, only - i knew JUST enough to make me almost cry, wishing i knew more... Honestly, Ancestry.com does a nice job - i paid for 1 month + their promotion, at the time was an extra 10 days...

Figured out my Dads-Mom's side of the family was traceable to Virginia, back before America even fought for its Independence.. I've had family members (on both sides, mom & dads) in every major American war since it was founded (except for the last one, i get to live with that).. I learned more than i bargained for..

All you really need to start with is your name, your mom and dads name.. Your grandparents, if you knew their names.. If not, some of your aunts and uncles names... And the census records and such kind of take over from there, you just have to DIG and make sure its correct..

For some 25 bucks, its better than knowing nothing.. Cause thats a horrible feeling


----------



## robie (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks, might give it a try.


----------



## Stressbaby (Feb 19, 2013)

BobR said:


> Craiger,
> I have been getting some cuttings every year, but have not had a great success rate on getting them started. I'll try again next month, but with these people now dying off, I think that the days of the remaining Concords are numbered. Oh well, it's been fun and I do have Concords from four families and the rows are named after each Italian family where the cutting came from. Nope, not trying to change the world....just trying to enjoy it.



As an experienced Gardner and a novice winemaker, this is very cool. You know you only need one plant to propagate. My wife's family is from northern Italy. I'd love to have those vines growing in our yard.


----------



## BobR (Feb 19, 2013)

Howdy Stressbaby,

Yeah, I'd just like to expand with clippings from the original plant, that is while I can. Between the past two summers droughts and this years cold winter, I always lose a few plants each year. We just have not had good growing conditions since '09-'10. In 2010, I put 25 plants in the ground and the squirrels dug up 24 of them. In 2011, the heat and lack of rain killed off another 25 or so. Last summer, I hauled water up until September, but they never really grew any. One bunch of plants are 1/4 mile from my house and the others are 1/2 mile from the house. I'm on a well and there is no running water back where the plants are. I do have a few nursery stock grapes ordered this year and if I can get some more old clippings, I should have at least 100 plants in the ground by spring. If I can get the cuttings to root, I hope to have over 100, but we'll wait and see. 
Where was your wife's family from? My wife's grandfather on her mothers side came from the Turin area. My clan came from around the hill town of Calascio, that is in the Abruzzo region. Presently, I stay in touch with two police officers that are from the north. One is up on the border and the other is north of the Abruzzo region. I have several friends that are down in Sicily. In fact, they are coming back to visit in a couple of weeks. 
If I have good luck on getting the clippings to root this spring and if I have some good left overs, you would be more than welcome to them. We could plan to meet in Hannibal some weekend and maybe even have a glass of wine down at the cave. Last year I had over 100 clippings, but only ended with around 20-25 that rooted. I bought a couple of heat mats a couple of weeks ago, so I am hoping that they will help in the callusing. I'd like a better success rate than 25%. I'd be happy with 50%.


----------



## jswordy (Feb 20, 2013)

BobR, I lived in sort-of central Illinois awhile. I'd think you could pick up an ag tank at a farm auction reasonable, or scrounge one, then put it on a trailer and haul water if you can. My relatives all live in northwestern Illinois, so I know the drought was bad.


----------



## NoSnob (Feb 20, 2013)

This has been a great thread, especially the old winemaker stories! 

In recent times, commercial wine has greatly improved. (Think back to the Almaden and Lancer's and lord knows what we drank long ago!) When it comes to the quality of wine we are all really spoiled. 

With all due respect to our ancestors: They made wine the best way they knew how. I think we should do the same.

NS


----------



## BobR (Feb 21, 2013)

jswordy said:


> I lived in sort-of central Illinois awhile. .



So what you are trying to tell me is, you got smart and moved out before the whole place comes tumbling down?
Yeah, my brother has a 300 gallon tank, but he's been hauling water for his well since the summer of 2011. Others around me have also been hauling all year, but so far, we have never had to haul. Last summer was worse than in 2011. What makes it even worse is trying to justify using the well water to water the grapes when you don't know if you'll have water from one day to the next. So far so good this year, the water table is back up again. It would be nice to have a normal summer. The only good thing about this drought has been not having to cut grass.


----------



## vernsgal (Feb 21, 2013)

kevinlfifer said:


> I have nothing to add, but what a great series of postings.



I agree.
But I do have to say that one thing that has changed for the good( I think) is that we do have great forums like this one.Without this site I wouldn't have known where to start and how to finish


----------



## Stressbaby (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi Bob, 
I'm not sure what part of Italy...mountains in northern Italy is what I know but I will try to find out. 
Central IL...we just drove thru Springfield and Champaign this past weekend. I will pm you.


----------



## BobR (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah, Champaign is not a bad area...always seems to be something going on over there. Back 15 plus years ago, I worked for the University of Illinois for 3 years. Loved my job, but got tired of driving close to 180 miles round trip each day. Spent the day over there yesterday, had lunch and had an enjoyable visit. Alto Vineyard, which is a southern Illinois winery, they have a tasting room over on the north edge of Champaign, just north of I-74, so whenever I'm over there, I end my day with a visit to Alto. On your way across 74, between Champaign and Danville is Sleepy Creek Winery. It's a few miles south of 74, but if you have never been there, it's a nice place. They have a nice sized vineyard and everyone seems to be real friendly. 

Yours in the Spirit of ChIef Illiniwek!


----------



## BobR (Feb 21, 2013)

vernsgal,

Could not agree with you more!


----------



## jswordy (Feb 21, 2013)

BobR said:


> So what you are trying to tell me is, you got smart and moved out before the whole place comes tumbling down?



Left Illinois for the South during the Rust Belt days, 1982. When we left to move to Virginia, unemployment statewide was 25%. I had laid-off friends tossing their house keys on the porch, getting in the car and driving south looking for work, leaving all the bikes and boats and toys behind for the collection agencies. Three days later we got out in Newport News, and unemployment was 4%. Night and day. They were like, what recession?

We lived in the small town of Dwight last, sort of between Streator and Kankakee. In winter 1981-82, we had four feet of snow on the ground and the temp was 40 below with a wind chill of 90 below. My wife looked at me in our little living room and said, "We're not staying here another year."

By spring, she had found a job in Tidewater, Va. We lived in Williamsburg for 7 years before moving to southern Tennessee, where her family lives.


----------



## robie (Feb 21, 2013)

NoSnob said:


> With all due respect to our ancestors: They made wine the best way they knew how. I think we should do the same.
> NS


 

Very well said and I couldn't agree more.


----------

