# What is best to top off a carboy if I have too much headspace



## jeff0219 (Jan 12, 2013)

When I rack from my primary to my carboy if I have too much headspace what is best to top off the carboy? I have heard that water will just weaken the alcohol content so I am not sure what else to use. Suggestions???


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## Mcamnl (Jan 12, 2013)

Going from primary to secondary I don't worry about topping up. There is still some fermentation going on so there will be a nice blanket of CO2 on top of the wine. 
After fermentation, if I decide to top up, it is with the same wine from a different batch or something very similar. Most times if I can't get a 6 gallon carboy filled to the top I step down to a 5 gallon carboy and a couple bottles. That way I don't worry about having to add anything to the wine. I don't ever use water.


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## Rodnboro (Jan 12, 2013)

Racking down is the best. If you can't, buy some cheap wine similar to what you are making. I usually find that it doesn't take as much as you think.


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## tonyt (Jan 12, 2013)

A bottle of the last wine you made is best IMHO.


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## Wiccan_Lager (Jan 14, 2013)

You could sterilize glass marbles and put them into the carboy to displace. I have never done it but I don't see why it wouldn't work.


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## jeff0219 (Jan 14, 2013)

Wiccan_Lager said:


> You could sterilize glass marbles and put them into the carboy to displace. I have never done it but I don't see why it wouldn't work.



That's an interesting suggestion. I know my wife has a ton of decorative marbles around the house. I don't think I will do it but it could be interesting seeing how upset she gets for me putting her marbles in my carboys.


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## bakervinyard (Jan 14, 2013)

Jeff0219, If you do that with her marbles she won't let you buy any more toys for your wine hobby. LOL. Bakervinyard


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 14, 2013)

I came up with this idea awhile ago - it just never really seemed to take off -
It is an air bladder to remove any excesss air 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jan 14, 2013)

Be careful with marbles, you never know if they have lead in them or not. 

Another way to top off is to make a topper with the same percentage of alcohol as your wine with everclear and adding acid blend to it to keep it from diluting the acid levels also. 

Another way it to make a special batch of wine you can use for topping up for the next couple of years, we like to use a high concentration of elderberries, even 100% elderberry, it give everything a nice color boost and adds a little bit of tannins. Blackberry is also good to make as a topper.

WVMJ


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## dan69man (Jan 14, 2013)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I came up with this idea awhile ago - it just never really seemed to take off -
> It is an air bladder to remove any excesss air
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/



Funny you should say that, I saw this on the weekend and wondered how one might adapt something similar to a carboy.

Oops read your link and someone posted this contraption as well.


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## pete1325 (Jan 15, 2013)

The guy who invented that was on Shark Tank.......he's a bazillionair now.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 15, 2013)

Not sure if that is the same product used for wine bottles would work on carboys Also ?


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 5, 2019)

We now came out with even an easier way to help with headspace =

https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/headspace-eliminator/


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## Fzee2 (Jan 6, 2019)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Be careful with marbles, you never know if they have lead in them or not.
> 
> Another way to top off is to make a topper with the same percentage of alcohol as your wine with everclear and adding acid blend to it to keep it from diluting the acid levels also.
> 
> ...


I never gave it a thought that there may be lead in the marbles. Any suggestions as to finding lead free marbles?


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## StToddy (Jan 6, 2019)

Blanket with N2 (to replace the O2) and/or use a vacuum pump as already suggested above


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## Newine (Jan 7, 2019)

Fzee2 said:


> I never gave it a thought that there may be lead in the marbles. Any suggestions as to finding lead free marbles?


I ordered food grade marbles a few years ago from one of the common supply shops, I am sure it would be easy enough to find them.


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## Michael Alspaugh (Jan 8, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Not sure if that is the same product used for wine bottles would work on carboys Also ?


 I purchased the All in One wine pump in Dec 2018 and it takes about 30 seconds to put the "head space eliminator... purchased for a slight extra charge"... on the top of my carboy turn on the pump suck out the extra Oxygen and watch the ball deflate telling me It has no air inside, detach my pump put on the cap that comes with it and WELL-AHH no air no marbles and NO MESS! It is the best thing for my wine making hobby that I have invested in since my first kit one year and 13 5-6 gallon batches of fruit wine ago.


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## Kiazer (Jan 9, 2019)

Wiccan_Lager said:


> You could sterilize glass marbles and put them into the carboy to displace. I have never done it but I don't see why it wouldn't work.


The topping up with like-minded wine is not a waste. if you back sweeten works. and marbles from the dollar store (sterilized) works well also.


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## iridium (Jan 9, 2019)

I also use the headspace eliminator from the all in one wine pump and it works great.


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## Michael Alspaugh (Jan 9, 2019)

iridium said:


> I also use the headspace eliminator from the all in one wine pump and it works great.


Okay this can be a messy hobby trying not to contaminate our wine or brew is hard enough and the less we put in that we have to clean-up later the better. so for me too the all in one wine pump is the bomb.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 9, 2019)

Michael Alspaugh said:


> watch the ball deflate telling me It has no air inside



What do you mean by "no air"?


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## heatherd (Jan 9, 2019)

I just top up with a similar wine.


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## BABRU (Jan 10, 2019)

I’m not sure why no one suggests just topping off with a little bit of good water.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 10, 2019)

BABRU said:


> I’m not sure why no one suggests just topping off with a little bit of good water.


I believe you would be diluting your wine and throwing your PH out of wack.

PH of water is 7 and wine is closer to 3


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## ASR (Jan 11, 2019)

This is from ECKraus on options based on how much needs to be topped off:

https://eckraus.com/wine-making-topping-up/


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## Bts (Jan 11, 2019)

ECKraus says water is "appropriate if your head-space is around a pint or less per 5 gallons of wine." PH is logarithmic, so I'm pretty sure it's not going to throw your PH off by more than a few hundredths of a point unless you're really going crazy and adding a gallon or two of water. I imagine you'll notice the difference in flavor and alcohol content before you go out of the acceptable range of wine PH. Well, unless you're starting with a red that's already pushing that limit. Presumably that's why they advocate water plus vodka, because dilution probably hits the ABV most noticeably.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 11, 2019)

The original post , mentions too much headspace - 
I took that we were talking more than just one 1 pint of headspace 


I understand where a pint of water will not effect PH that much. I use the headspace eliminator if I have several pints of headspace in a 5 gallon carboy.

I believe that changes everything


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## Bts (Jan 11, 2019)

I was assuming a pint or three. I figured a wine coming out of primary in January is probably a kit wine that's in the general vicinity of 6 gal. In which case it doesn't matter all that much what its toped with, just as long as long as it's topped off. If it's like half a gallon or a gallon then yea that's pushing the limits of topping up into the realm of you have the wrong size container....which is a pain unless you've got a headspace eliminator or a wide variety of carboys.


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## Michael Alspaugh (Jan 11, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> What do you mean by "no air"?


When you suck most of the Oxygen out of the top of the carboy there is little to no air in it.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 11, 2019)

@Michael Alspaugh , that pump probably gets about 3/4 of the air out.


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## Johnd (Jan 12, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> @Michael Alspaugh , that pump probably gets about 3/4 of the air out.



Paul, if one had a 6 gallon carboy with a gallon of headspace, and removed 3/4 of the “air”, is it safe to assume that it’s the equivalent of the wine being exposed to 1/4 gallon of headspace (assuming that the vacuum seal remains perfect and doesn’t leak air back in)?

Or, is there a reduced interaction factor between the gasses in the headspace and the wine surface due to the reduced pressure in the headspace?


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Paul, if one had a 6 gallon carboy with a gallon of headspace, and removed 3/4 of the “air”, is it safe to assume that it’s the equivalent of the wine being exposed to 1/4 gallon of headspace (assuming that the vacuum seal remains perfect and doesn’t leak air back in)?
> 
> Or, is there a reduced interaction factor between the gasses in the headspace and the wine surface due to the reduced pressure in the headspace?



John, there wouldn't be any reduction in the interaction. So more like your first statement, a reduction in the amount of gas.

_However_, it may be a bit better than that in practice. While you are evacuating the headspace, I imagine that some gases, like CO2, may come out of solution. Thus, the oxygen in the headspace may be further diluted/reduced due to that effect. But I do not know how to quantify that short of sampling it.


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## Chuck Rairdan (Jan 12, 2019)

If one racks just before primary fermentation is complete, the offgassing CO2 should replace the original air in the headspace to a tolerable level with a one-way breather in place.


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## Michael Alspaugh (Jan 12, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> @Michael Alspaugh , that pump probably gets about 3/4 of the air out.


I don't know how anyone would know. I have no intention of putting water or wine in my carboy after the first fermentation has started. I have several sizes of carboys and as my wine volume shrinks I go down and what little space remains the All in one pump seems to be the perfect solution to the headspace. On top of that it is simple and mess free.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> @Michael Alspaugh , that pump probably gets about 3/4 of the air out.





Michael Alspaugh said:


> I don't know how anyone would know.



I apologize if my use of the word "probably" threw you. I "know" because the manufacturer of the pump has cited numbers for ultimate pressure of his pump in the ballpark of 3/4 of an atmosphere. I have not tested it independently, but I trust Steve.


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## Stressbaby (Jan 13, 2019)

While I love my All in One pump, I've always felt like the "Headspace Eliminator" was unfortunately named. It would be more accurate to call it the "Headspace Gas Reducer."

Great point about off-gassing CO2 replacing what air is left in the headspace. It raises a question: if the bulb inflates, how do you know whether you have a system leak vs vacuum just lost due to some degassing?

The end goal here is to reduce oxidation and fortunately this is testable, even for a home winemaker. From one batch of wine, fill first 1 gal carboy to the very top and airlock; leave second gallon 1 pint* short and use Headspace Eliminator. Leave third gallon 2 pints short and use Headspace Eliminator. Maybe a fourth gallon 2 pints short and normal airlock. Three months later, measure the SO2 levels. The drop in SO2 level should correspond directly with the oxygen uptake of the wine at 4:1 ratio of SO2:O2. Maybe two trials, one using fully degassed wine, one with wine still a little fizzy.

*I'm spit balling the volumes here but you get the idea.


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## Michael Alspaugh (Jan 13, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> I apologize if my use of the word "probably" threw you. I "know" because the manufacturer of the pump has cited numbers for ultimate pressure of his pump in the ballpark of 3/4 of an atmosphere. I have not tested it independently, but I trust Steve.


Not much throws me in this life and certainly not this. We all have our own way of doing and saying things so I hope this answered the persons question but if I were just starting out I'd be confused by all the Jargon and so on. Steve helped me when I was looking into his pump and so far the things he claimed are true. I would not go back to my old way of racking no matter what.


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## Johnd (Jan 13, 2019)

Michael Alspaugh said:


> Not much throws me in this life and certainly not this. We all have our own way of doing and saying things so I hope this answered the persons question but if I were just starting out I'd be confused by all the Jargon and so on. Steve helped me when I was looking into his pump and so far the things he claimed are true. I would not go back to my old way of racking no matter what.



It’s all about what works for you and your winemaking situation, and you should stick to it!! Whether it’s an eliminator, marbles, racking down to smaller containers, purging with inert gas, the goal is to control exposure to oxygen, thereby limiting oxidation and microbial infestation opportunities. 

My personal preference, in my situation, having a vast number of bottles of home made and store bought wines cellared, is to simply top up my vessels for long term storage / aging. Most times, I’ve even bottled some of the same wine being bulk aged specifically for that purpose. I wouldn’t consider doing it any other way, because it works for me.


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## joeswine (Jan 13, 2019)

When I talk from fermenter to the secondary just before the fermentation is complete the gases trapped in solution form a cap on the wine.
I nitrogen to cap , after a week or two keeping an eye on the bubbler I then retack , transfer to a clean carboy or rack down as needed.
Headspace can be controlled.


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## Kiazer (Jan 16, 2019)

Mcamnl said:


> Going from primary to secondary I don't worry about topping up. There is still some fermentation going on so there will be a nice blanket of CO2 on top of the wine.
> After fermentation, if I decide to top up, it is with the same wine from a different batch or something very similar. Most times if I can't get a 6 gallon carboy filled to the top I step down to a 5 gallon carboy and a couple bottles. That way I don't worry about having to add anything to the wine. I don't ever use water.


You are correct....if all else fail when I do a reisleling,,piesporter or other special fineky wines I add sterilized marbels to fill the gap (dollar store) if I don't want to impact the taste. If you top up with a couple of bottles from your collection you don't lose that bottle.... If my alcohol content is at 11% and I want 13-14% I add a bottle of tasteless bottle of silent Sam vodka. This bottle doesn't go to waste.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 20, 2019)

It would be nice if small/ inexpensive variable capacity stainless tanks existed. Over the last two year I have been playing with plastic "cubitainers" with a solid #6.5 cork or a silicone burper bung. So far they look good. Most back sweetening/ holding for botteling is being done in these.


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## heatherd (Jan 20, 2019)

I top up with a similar wine, not water.


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## Kiazer (Jan 21, 2019)

Rodnboro said:


> Racking down is the best. If you can't, buy some cheap wine similar to what you are making. I usually find that it doesn't take as much as you think.


When aging like others have said use another ..... its not like youll lose that bottle. Or serilize some marbles to fill the head space


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## Chuck Rairdan (Feb 23, 2019)

Just 2nd racked this pomegranate blueberry dry rose from 2 x 1-gallon jugs to a 3 gal carboy and bunged it with a Headspace Elliminator. Created the vacuum with a vacuum stopper as pictured. Fitted the stopper onto the HE with a 2" section of 1/2" poly tubing. About 15 strokes on the hand pump and, voila!, headspace gas reduced in neg pressure environment. Added 2 campden tabs (and some glicerin) so that emitted sulfide gas will prevent oxidation and help still the wine. 1st racking included a medium dose of French oak. Initial tastings have been good and this a potent one at just over 15% abv. Gots some serious legs


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 24, 2019)

Chuck Rairdan said:


> Just 2nd racked this pomegranate blueberry dry rose from 2 x 1-gallon jugs to a 3 gal carboy and bunged it with a Headspace Elliminator. Created the vacuum with a vacuum stopper as pictured. Fitted the stopper onto the HE with a 2" section of 1/2" poly tubing. About 15 strokes on the hand pump and, voila!, headspace gas reduced in neg pressure environment. Added 2 campden tabs (and some glicerin) so that emitted sulfide gas will prevent oxidation and help still the wine. 1st racking included a medium dose of French oak. Initial tastings have been good and this a potent one at just over 15% abv. Gots some serious legs
> 
> View attachment 53525



Make sure that you use the white caps to go over the check valve - just don't push them all the way down as you will never get it back off.

It appears that you got some CO2 out using the hand pump ?


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## Chuck Rairdan (Feb 24, 2019)

Thanks for the reminder, hadn't put on the cap. Still holding the vacuum just fine and the hand pump worked great, just make sure to keep a good seal between the pump and stopper while pumping. It was a trailing fermentation when I racked it so some residual CO2, but mostly just reducing the mixed gas in the headspace. A little O2 might do it some good before bottling and with the sulfide gas in there too no worries. Really like the HE, nice option to have in the toolkit.


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## Chuck Rairdan (Mar 21, 2019)

Could probably adapt a blood pressure tester hand pump/valve assembly attached to a large, durable ballon or bladder to eliminate carboy headspaces


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 21, 2019)

Chuck Rairdan said:


> Could probably adapt a blood pressure tester hand pump/valve assembly attached to a large, durable ballon or bladder to eliminate carboy headspaces



WOW - I came up with that same idea back in 2012 - 
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version.18124/


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