# Cleaning new/used bottles and sanitation



## TNFISHRMAN (Sep 21, 2005)

I have been trying to chase a problem that I am having with my wine that shows up approximately three-five days after bottling and can't seem to find anything wrong. All wines are cleared properly and pumped through a Buno Vino filter pump before bottling. I am down to wondering if it could be in my bottle preparation. Could someone go through the steps of cleaning newor used bottles for preparation to bottle? Then add the steps one must take to sanitize right at bottling time? Maybe I will see something that I am not doing properly. Thanks, Lynn


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## Hippie (Sep 22, 2005)

Are you rinsing the bottles very well? If you are using bleach or any kind of soap, you need to rinse alot and several times. With new bottles, sulphiting is all that is required. You need a Vinator and a bottle tree to sit it on. Have those?


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## geocorn (Sep 22, 2005)

I wash my bottles with Easy Clean first to get out the visible debris and rinse well. Then I sulfite them with the vinator and place on the draining tree (like Hippie recommended) just before bottling.


What are you noticing on day 5 after bottling?


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## TNFISHRMAN (Sep 22, 2005)

George, I am having somthing that appears like fall out (lees) about 3-5 days after bottling. The Green apple Riesling that I just finished, my wife wanted it sweeter than normal so I decided to use the Wine Conditioner since it has some sorbate in it to sweeten. I noticed the sediment after approximately the 4th day. It was 4days before I turned the bottles on their side. A batch of Blackberry did this also about the first of July. Most of the bottles I am using are new. 


Hippie, I do have a Vinator. I use it religously. I do not use Chlorine bleach or soap on bottles only Hot water and Sulphite solution. I have bottles that are dirtier than normal that I am using B-brite on right now, but have not used those yet. 


During sulphiting I will use the Vinator and coat the inside of bottle well with approx. 3 pumps on the Vinator, then hand on bottle tree for an 1-2 hours until I am ready to bottle. Sometimes the bottles are still a little wet with Sulphite solution. Boy, I sure wish I could figure this out.


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## geocorn (Sep 22, 2005)

It sounds like your wines are not clear when you bottle them. I would suggest that you wait a while longer to bottle, use some Super-Kleer or use a filter.


A little sediment will not affect the flavor, just the appearance. 


As an aside, Rieslings and fruit wines can take longer to clear.


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## peterCooper (Sep 22, 2005)

What is a Vinator? I looked in the catalog and saw ap icture but I'm not sure 
what it does or how it works.

I don't use a bottle tree, After cleaning and sanitizing, I put them upside 
down in the dishwasher (clean of course, and it has a sanitize cycle). They 
are only there a few minutes while I'm bottling.


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## geocorn (Sep 22, 2005)

The Vinator is a device that shoots sanitizer up into the bottle. It makes sanitizing easier.


You can use the dishwasher as a drainer, but do not use the dishwasher to clean or dry your bottles. It is not necessary.


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## masta (Sep 22, 2005)

You put your sanitizing solution in the vinator and place a bottle upside down over the spray nozzle. Pushing the bottle down will spray the solution up inside the bottle...it has a spring inside which pushes the nozzle back up.


A vinator and at least one bottle tree area must have for wine making junkies!


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## TNFISHRMAN (Sep 22, 2005)

George, I had let both the batches clear to where your could not see anything suspended with a flashlight. You could even read a magazine through it. Then just as a precaution I filtered with the Buno Vino mini-jet and #2 filters. So do you think there still could be issues with it not cleared properly?


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## geocorn (Sep 22, 2005)

Could it beice crystals? It does sound a little odd.


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## TNFISHRMAN (Sep 22, 2005)

I don't think it is ice crystals because it has not been chilled. Its got me stumped.


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## geocorn (Sep 22, 2005)

I 'm stumped. Maybe someone else has some thoughts.


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## AAASTINKIE (Sep 22, 2005)

http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=4800



you have to have one of these, brass bottle washer, there is no way a
dishwasher can clean a wine bottle the correct way, the neck is too
small.

the bottle tree is nice but if money is an issue you can dip the
bottles is a bucket with sanitizer and put them on the dishwasher racks
to drain OK.

I get my bottles from the redemtion center and if any have mold in them
they just go back, I don't go any further with them, the good ones get
washed with the brass bottle washer, then into the bathtub with a touch
of bleach and soak for an hour before taking the labels off.

They get sanitized just before bottling.


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## Hippie (Sep 22, 2005)

I think George meant acid crystals. They do not usually occur with that type of winekit. What color is the sediment that falls out in the bottles? We will get to the bottom of this.


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## masta (Sep 22, 2005)

This is very puzzling since you say if shows up so quickly after bottling




if was fines they would have be very tiny after going through your filter and most likely wouldn't drop out that fast.


I have made over 120 kits reds,whites and the Island Mist types (roughly 20 of these) and have never seen any fines drop out in the bottles and some are 2 years old.


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## TNFISHRMAN (Sep 24, 2005)

I may be messing up, but I added a round of Super Kleer KC to it yesterday. Hopefully this will clear it up. I only worry because it has been sweetened. Will any of the sugar and flavoring come out sinceI am Clearing it again? Masta, How long will you let your kit wines set after adding clarifier?? This particular one set for three weeks and was clear as a bell. I talk to the owner of a local winery and supply store here and He said that sometimes you need to let the kit wines set longer than what they say and even after chilling you may still have some sediment fallout. Comments welcomed, Lynn


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## masta (Sep 24, 2005)

After adding the fining agent to kits I usually let them settle at least 3 weeks before bottling. They go directly to the wine cellar after a few days which is set for 57 degrees. The whites are usually put into the fridge after opening and still have never seen any fines drop out after 2 weeks.


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## peterCooper (Sep 24, 2005)

I wasn't using the dishwasher to clean, just to drain. It's a handy place to 
put things, assuming it's empty. 

I make up a solution of cleaner, clean and bottle brush each one. Then 
sanitize with k-meta, then put in the dishweasher to drain for about 30 
minutes.

Works from another perspective too. I run the dishwasher and then put 
everything away before I start, keeping the rest of the house happy so they 
can't complain when I take over the kitchen


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## peterCooper (Oct 1, 2005)

After bottling, and before labelling, is anyone using a special technique for 
getting the expterior of the bottles 'bright'? I seem to end up with a residue 
like spots on galss after being run through the dishwasher without a rinse 
aid.


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## Hippie (Oct 1, 2005)

When you take them out of the dishwasher, sulphite them, then continue holding them upside down while you runwarm tap water over the outside surface, then hang them on the bottle tree to drain. You can pick each one up by the bottom with a clean dishtowel to avoid fingerprints, but they will eventually get all over the bottles sooner or later.


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## Joseph1 (Oct 1, 2005)

Lynn,<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

This is quite a puzzle. Your bottle preparation procedures seem fine and shouldn’t be causing the problem. Do you notice the fall-out in all of the bottles in the batch or only some?

In addition to the Green Apple Riesling, you indicate you had the same problem with a Blackberry. Was wine conditioner also used on the Blackberry? Have you had this problem in other wines you have made? Prior to filtering, did you rack to a clean carboy containing the wine conditioner? 

At the point in the kit instruction where it indicates you can bottle, I rack to a sanitized carboy. The wine will remain in the carboy at least 2 months before I filter. This provides additional time for any sediment to drop out. When I filter, I put the intake only about halfway into the carboy and lower it as the level drops. This avoids stirring up any fine lees that have settled. 

Did you run water through your filter before filtering the wine? I usually run about 3 gallons of cold water through the filter first. This would remove any dust that might be on the filter pads. I also use only the #2 filter pads, but these will still allow some of the finings, yeast cells and other substances through.
I hope you are able to solve this puzzle.


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## TNFISHRMAN (Oct 1, 2005)

Joseph,


Fallout was in all the bottles. No wine conditioner was used in the Blackberry. These were the only wines that have done this so far. I did not rack into a carboy prior to filtering. I filtered through #2 pads into a bucket with a spigot and added the conditioner, then I bottled.


One thing about filtering I always clean the plates with sulphite solution and rinse, thensoak the pads in sulphite solution for a minute before placing them in the press. Could this be a problem?


So far with the kits I have bottles when it said to rack into a clean carboy. From now on I will Rack then let settle additional time.


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## Hippie (Oct 2, 2005)

Lynn, you should read the instructions that came with your Mini-Jet again and follow them to the letter. The pads are to be soaked inplainwater and not touching each other for 5 minutes. This is only to get the air out of them.Sanitizing the plates and other wine contact surfaces is fine. You run the filter until the water is gone from the pads, then put the hose into the recieving carboy. Do not shut the pump off until you are done filtering.


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## TNFISHRMAN (Oct 2, 2005)

Hippie, I do follow them (the directions for the mini jet)to the letter. They do not mention anything about not sanitizing the pads with sulphite solution. They only say to let them soak for a minute without touching. You are not supposed to let the pump run dry so you take the discharge hose and place in sink or an empty container to let it catch the first little bit that has water in it. Then place hose into the receiving Carboy. 






I am beginning to get a complex I have been told to follow the directions and instructions so many times its not funny. I always follow the instructions for anything that I am doing. I always look over the filter pump manual before using and read recipe and wine kit instructions several times at each step to make sure that I am doing things correctly. I have a lot of questions because this is all new to me.


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## Hippie (Oct 2, 2005)

Lynn, please ask all the questions you want, they are all very welcome.


What I was getting at about the Mini-Jet instructions is that they do not say to soak the filter pads in sulphite solution, only plain water. So, if you are soaking them in sulphite solution, you are not following the instructions as you say. The plain water is only to get the air out of the pads. No need to sanitize them.


Are we still friends?


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## TNFISHRMAN (Oct 2, 2005)

Lord yes, we're still friends!!!! I consider you one of my bestest wine making buddies. I was honestly beggining to get a complex though. Everytime I had a problem someone would say follow or read the instructions and I was.



I really didn't think that the sulphite solution would hurt with the pads because it was mainly water. I can't help it I am a clean freak! I was shown to do that by a friend who started me out in the wine making hobby. Could that be a problem because of having too much sulphite in the wine when it is racked to a clean carboy or getting bottled? Would this possibly cause clearing problems? Again thanks Hippie!!


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## Hippie (Oct 3, 2005)

Who knows what is causing the clearing problems, but there must be a reason the instructions say to use plain water for soaking the pads. Commercial winemakers and some hobbyists who use other brands of plate-and-pad filters usually use a sulphite and citric acid solution to prepare the filter pads. With some large machines, they run the solution through between batches of wine and dont change the filters until they are clogged.


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## Joseph1 (Oct 3, 2005)

Lynn,<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

Since I wasn’t there, I can only speculate as to the cause of the fallout. I believe that filtering the wine while there were lees at the bottom of the carboy may be the source of the problem. The few weeks that would have elapsed between the last racking and filtering would not have allowed the lees to become very compact.

The filtering action likely disturbed the sediment and the smaller particles would have passed through the filter pads and were mixed in your receiving vessel. Some fining, some yeast cells and 3 to 5 days in the bottle and you have sediment. The wine could have been perfectly clear before filtering.

In another thread I think you mentioned you have since filtered with the #3 pads and so far so good. I believe your plan to rack and let things settle before filtering is a good plan.

I doubt that soaking the pads in a sulfite solution would have caused the problem. I soak the pads in a citric acid/sulfite solution then run 3 gallons of cold water through the filter before filtering the wine. Am I doing more than is necessary? Perhaps so, but I am comfortable with the additional precautions since I do not know the quality controls in handling and packaging the filter pads. Most all the literature I have read on winemaking, except the instructions for the mini-jet, admonish the winemaker to sanitize all equipment that comes in contact with the wine.
As you gain experience, you will find that different winemakers have different procedures for the same process. Neither is wrong, they are just different. You choose the procedure you are comfortable with and change when something different makes sense to you. Wine is pretty forgiving of us mortals.


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## TNFISHRMAN (Oct 4, 2005)

Thanks for your insight Joseph! I appreciate it. It has now been 3 days since bottling the Green Apple and all is well. So far so good!!


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