# Thinking about getting an oak barrel..pros and cons?



## geek (May 24, 2013)

I posted in another thread that I never added oak powder in primary fermentation. I know my reds have always been 'weak' in terms of mouthfeel, usually a taste of "off-flavor" and not "sweetness" available.

Based on what I've read, oak "fights" off flavors or better to say, adds mouthfeel to the wine.
My wines in the past have been off as mentioned earlier, alcohol taste is predominant but a "plain" alcohol flavor.

I always buy the 6 gallon plastic pails with yeast pre-added.

I have the following glass containers:
-3 5gal carboys
-1 15gal demi-john

Am I better off just using oak powder in primary fermentation, and maybe spirals next?

I don't want to spend a lot, so if I bought an oak barrel, what size would you recommend for my small arsenal, maybe a 25L so I ferment one 6gal pail, or something bigger to replace 2 carboys or even the demi-john?

Typical price?
Toasted oak barrel vs. not toasted?

I really want to "fix" and make my wine RIGHT.
At the same time I don't want to spend $ on a barrel and then find out that I need to fix leaks and all that.
Am I better off justk adding oak powder to primary and this would provide the benefits as using an oak barrel?

All the feedback would be appreciated.


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## Pumpkinman (May 24, 2013)

Geek, I am by no means an oak barrel expert, I can however, tell you what I've seen so far.
It is difficult for me to put into words exactly what I've experienced, but here it goes: 
The main difference that I've experienced in the wine that just came out of a 23 liter barrel is that the wine and oak seem "married", fuller, richer, while the wines that I used oak chips in have a very nice taste to them, but it does seem that the wine and oak are two separate entities, this was lessened when I switched to oak spirals and added them during fermentation.
The cost of a 23 liter Barrel isn't much, but Vadai will be raising their prices soon from what they told me. As far as leaks, I haven't had any leaks so far on either of the 2 20 liter or the 23 liter barrels., I wouldn't even consider purchasing an untoasted barrel, it kinda defeats the purpose, but remember, you need to be able to keep that barrel full, if you have enough wine or plan to make enough wine to keep it filled, I'd jump at the barrel!


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## JohnT (May 24, 2013)

Pumpkin, 

After reading your last post, I assume that you always use chips and have never tried anything larger?

Got to get you to try staves (instead of chips). Try an experiment with bigger pieces of oak, Med toast preferred. I have a strong feeling that you would never go back to chips again. I find that they bring a lot of what you describe to the table.


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## Pumpkinman (May 24, 2013)

JohnT,
Nope, not at all, I used chips twice and haven't gone back, I've used staves and Oak infusion Spirals since then, now I am oaking in a barrel.
Oak infusion spirals were my favorite, you have a lot of control with them.


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## Boatboy24 (May 24, 2013)

I've only had my barrel just under six months, but I haven't come across any 'cons'. In fact, I'm about to pull the trigger on a second barrel. At under $200 delivered, a 23 liter Vadai barrel will greatly improve your wines. And over time, the cost per bottle becomes minimal.


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## tonyt (May 24, 2013)

Geek, pros are everything above and much more. Cons are that you must produce enough to keep it full all the time. That means for a 23ltr barrel at least four six gallon kits the first year then two or three each year after that. When you can manage that go for it.


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## joshs (Jun 11, 2013)

Glad that I found this post. I hope this doesn't "drift" the thread too much but I have a related question.

I am trying to decide if my next equipment purchase should be a barrel or an Allinone pump. I realize they are very different products with very different uses but I can only get one right now. As a side note, I haven't had any issues yet degassing my wines and I do have enough in the pipeline to keep the barrel full.

Thoughts?

-Josh


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 11, 2013)

Josh:

I think the decision comes down to your personal situation. They are both around $200 (assuming you are looking at a 23liter vadai and the All In One pump), so other than maybe ten or twenty bucks, there's not much of a price difference. If you have issues lifting heavy carboys, have trouble degassing, or find bottling to be painful, I'd say the pump might be higher on the list. If you think your wines could be better, and have enough of a pipeline to keep a barrel full, that might be the better choice.


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## tonyt (Jun 11, 2013)

One will make your wine taste better the other will help make your wine easier, you decide. I had to buy the pump first because I'm old and can't lift the carboy. Assuming you are younger I would go with the barrel.


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## ibglowin (Jun 11, 2013)

You have to drink and make a lot of red wine to keep that barrel full 365 days a year, especially the first year. Just keep that in mind. I am now getting into some red kits that have sat for 2 years AND spent 3-4 months in the barrel as well as had bumps in tannin added. Its hard to believe these wines came out of a box. So the barrel can and will do some amazing things to your kit wines. Tough call.


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## Pumpkinman (Jun 11, 2013)

I'd buy the Allinone first, then the barrel, Mike has a real valid point about having to keep the barrel full.


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## joshs (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks for the great input! All very valid points that I need to consider. 

If I'm doing the Allinone, I need to decide quickly as I think it's currently on sale.

-Josh


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## nucjd (Jun 12, 2013)

What a great thread. It convinced me to order a 6 gallon Vadai Hungarian barrel. Look forward to using it


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## tonyt (Jun 13, 2013)

You'll love the barrel nychd. Lots of threads on break in.


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 15, 2013)

I just got one going last week and was very happy with the quality. I prepped it in accordance with the instructions that came with it and had 0 leakage. I ordered another one. It's on the way.


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## ibglowin (Jun 15, 2013)

Good job Shoe!


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## Pumpkinman (Jun 15, 2013)

Congrats on the barrels!!!!!!!


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## geek (Jun 15, 2013)

shoebiedoo said:


> I just got one going last week and was very happy with the quality. I prepped it in accordance with the instructions that came with it and had 0 leakage. I ordered another one. It's on the way.



where you bought it?

Wondering if this is a good one, price sounds good for a 1ogal?

http://www.thebarrelmill.com/index.php/wine-barrels/10-gallon-american-oak-wine-barrel.html

I also wonder if is better to start with a 5gal barrel to get used to the barrel, then move up as needed.


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## vabeachbear (Jun 16, 2013)

Just some input. I have had a Vadai 23L barrel for going on two years, with 6 different kits going through it.

Oak is starting to mellow, but still there. 

I like oak in the wine, so I purchased an stainless oak tube (from morewine.com I believe). It has removable tabs on the end, fits perfectly into a carboy. It allows you to experiment with the amount of oak you like.

I make all my kits at a local winery, and they use the Hungarian High Vanilla oak chips which are really good and I would tell everyone to try if you haven't.

It usually only takes a few weeks to get the oak taste in the wine. 

The barrel loses its oak flavor, but still is an important part of the wine making as it allows the wine to micro oxidize much quicker than the bottle.

All my kits now get the oak tube, then a minimum of 4 months in the barrel. Longer depending on what's waiting.


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## seth8530 (Jun 16, 2013)

Good thread, I would not be able to make enough wine to justify a barell at this point in time.. But good info.


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## vabeachbear (Jun 17, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Good thread, I would not be able to make enough wine to justify a barell at this point in time.. But good info.



Not sure how many you make, but 3-4 kits a year max is all you can get through a barrel the first year. 
Really after the 1st year, easily could just put two through. 6 months per kit would be ideal imo.


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## Pumpkinman (Jun 17, 2013)

Varis, 
I highly recommend Vadai for the barrel, the Hungarian oak has tighter fibers than the American oak, this is important because the more dense, or the tighter the fibers, the slower the oak will impact the wine.


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## nucjd (Jun 17, 2013)

Vey cool. I got a Hungarian oak barrel based on the reviews but did not know why that was the reason.


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## rhenson (Jul 26, 2013)

I am just experiencing what a barrel can do with a small 5L gift. I am sold, but am really new to this - when scheduling kits to keep it full (I am thinking of cellar crafts washington state red, with skin pack) do you transfer to the barrel starting at secondary fermentation, or after fermentation is complete? Do you always have a kit bulk aging in glass to use for top off?


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## Boatboy24 (Jul 26, 2013)

rhenson said:


> I am just experiencing what a barrel can do with a small 5L gift. I am sold, but am really new to this - when scheduling kits to keep it full (I am thinking of cellar crafts washington state red, with skin pack) do you transfer to the barrel starting at secondary fermentation, or after fermentation is complete? Do you always have a kit bulk aging in glass to use for top off?



Put it in the barrel after it clears.


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## chrisjw (Jul 28, 2013)

Nobody mentioned the con of having to add more sulphite on a regular basis which means you probably need a good free SO2 tester. A DIY A/O kit is going to cost $70-$100 not including the chemicals. Of course if you are going to bulk age in any container, a Free SO2 tester is good to have anyway but is not absolutely required. 

But this also means that you cannot just leave wine in a barrel alone for 3+ months at a time like you can do with carboys. For example, I leave all my wines in a glass carboy for 6-7 months during the winter without touching them. Unfortunately, should not do that with barrels.

I did not think that one needs to keep barrels filled all the time, however. One can dry it out and burn a sulphur stick inside the carboy to remove the oxygen and preserve the inside.


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## vabeachbear (Jul 29, 2013)

chrisjw said:


> Nobody mentioned the con of having to add more sulphite on a regular basis which means you probably need a good free SO2 tester. A DIY A/O kit is going to cost $70-$100 not including the chemicals. Of course if you are going to bulk age in any container, a Free SO2 tester is good to have anyway but is not absolutely required.
> 
> But this also means that you cannot just leave wine in a barrel alone for 3+ months at a time like you can do with carboys. For example, I leave all my wines in a glass carboy for 6-7 months during the winter without touching them. Unfortunately, should not do that with barrels.
> 
> I did not think that one needs to keep barrels filled all the time, however. One can dry it out and burn a sulphur stick inside the carboy to remove the oxygen and preserve the inside.


No wine to put in the barrel is the least amount of an issue for me. Usually have one or two waiting to go in. Super Tuscan just in, Barolo waiting, so I have roughly 9 months til I need to have something else ready to go in. I find that I need a split a month to keep topped off. 
Now after 5 previous kits and 6th one in the barrel, I leave them around 4 or 5 months so its roughly two full bottles for topping. Kmeta each racking whether its carboy or barrel.


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## Tess (Sep 16, 2013)

I have done nothing for the past two day but look into this. I have to pass for now and go with the spirals. After you factor in the money and time u put in to age in those barrels (a couple kits then they are bust) they just dont last long enough to warrant the price for me. I might change my mind in a year or so but for now its a no for me


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## WI_Wino (Sep 16, 2013)

Oak barrels aren't "toast" after they have become neutral (no more oak imparted to the wine). They still affect the taste and feel of the wine as it micro-oxidizes.


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## ibglowin (Sep 16, 2013)

A barrel will last indefinitely if you take good care of it. It will impart oak for about two years. After that you add oak beans to the barrel for oak. I actually like my 2 neutral barrels more than my 2 newer ones as I can add French oak or American oak depending on the wine that is being aged. Barrels are win/win IMHO.


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## vabeachbear (Sep 17, 2013)

Tess said:


> I have done nothing for the past two day but look into this. I have to pass for now and go with the spirals. After you factor in the money and time u put in to age in those barrels (a couple kits then they are bust) they just dont last long enough to warrant the price for me. I might change my mind in a year or so but for now its a no for me



If you are researching, look into Micro Oxidation. You can get your oak flavoring from the spiral, but will never get the micro oxidation you get from the barrel.

Again will re-iterate, I put 3 -4 kits a year in barrel. You'll need a minimum of 3 months to start to get micro oxidation. 4-6 months is better for the 23L Vadai barrel.

The barrel isn't bust after you start lose oak. After 6 kits, I'm still getting oak, but I like a lot of oak, so after racking, I have an oak tube that I use to get oak in wine while bulk aging before going into barrel. (SS Oak tube and chips, much cheaper than spirals). After 6 months of clearing/oaking/bulk aging, wine goes into barrel for 4-6 months. 

Big difference in final product when you use a barrel. At least that's my experience.


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## Tess (Sep 17, 2013)

I guess Im good for now. I may change my mind later you never know.


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