# Not too soon to start thinking about 2019 Fall Grapes



## jgmann67 (Jan 16, 2019)

Made Petit Sirah in 2016... another year at least till it’s ready. Made a blend of Cab, Merlot and PV in 2017... another 2 years at least. Made an OVZ in 2018... another 3 years... well you get the idea. 

So, in 2019 I’m looking for something a little different. Maybe Cab Franc... dunno. Any thoughts?


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## jgmann67 (Jan 16, 2019)

And I misspelled “too”. Shame on me.


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## CDrew (Jan 16, 2019)

So you made a Petite Sirah and a Bordeaux blend. And you want different. A Zinfandel from 2018 should be ready to start drinking in 2020.

How about something Italian and a bit different ? Maybe a Barbera? A Sangiovese? Or go to Spain and a Tempranillo?

I don't know where you live but you gotta make what you can easily get. 

I'm thinking ahead too and have Zinfandel and Syrah lined up. And I'll be opportunistic about a 3rd. Hoping for a Barbera or a Tempranillo! Mostly the Barbera. I am drinking a glass of a terrific 2012 Barbera just now:


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## jgmann67 (Jan 16, 2019)

CDrew said:


> So you made a Petite Sirah and a Bordeaux blend. And you want different. A Zinfandel from 2018 should be ready to start drinking in 2020.
> 
> How about something Italian and a bit different ? Maybe a Barbera? A Sangiovese? Or go to Spain and a Tempranillo?
> 
> ...



Thought about both of those, too. I’ll need to sample more. Not sure if I’m crazy about either. 

Luckily, I have access to just about anything I’d want. I live close enough to 4-5 good distributors.


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## CDrew (Jan 16, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> Thought about both of those, too. I’ll need to sample more. Not sure if I’m crazy about either.
> 
> Luckily, I have access to just about anything I’d want. I live close enough to 4-5 good distributors.



If you like Zinfandel, you will like Barbera. Barbera is such an excellent food wine with a bit more acidity than Zinfandel. But get the best grapes you can, and go from there.

It's interesting, for all of us, you have to commit, often on short notice, to grapes/wine that you will drink for the next 5+ years.


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## NorCal (Jan 16, 2019)

I’ve got to cut back next year or find more people to take my wine. I really want to go big bold grapes this season. Thinking a field blend barrel of Petite Sirah and Petit Verdot, along with a barrel of Mourvedre to use to blend tame the PS/PV, if needed, as well as a stand-alone. I made a few carboys of PS and PV this year, blended some leftovers of each to make port. It was really good.


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## CDrew (Jan 16, 2019)

NorCal said:


> I’ve got to cut back next year or find more people to take my wine. I really want to go big bold grapes this season. Thinking a field blend barrel of Petite Sirah and Petit Verdot, along with a barrel of Mourvedre to use to blend tame the PS/PV, if needed, as well as a stand-alone. I made a few carboys of PS and PV this year, blended some leftovers of each to make port. It was really good.



Since you are local, I'd like to learn what you know about a Port. Even this year, I have enough left over Syrah, to make a nice Port. I know nothing about "back sweetening" and similar maneuvers. It would be fun to learn.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 17, 2019)

Thank you to the mod for fixing my spelling. That kind of stuff makes me crazy. It gets so bad sometimes that my wife will put her hand on my shoulder and say, “There, they’re, their... it’s going to be alright.”


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 17, 2019)

I had a similar 'itch' to scratch in 2017. I did Merlot, Cab Franc, Pinot Noir and Malbec. All excellent on their (they're, there) own so far, but I may play with blending some of the Cab Franc and Merlot. 

For 2019, I need to figure out where I'm buying from first. Then I'll decide, based on what they offer.


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## ceeaton (Jan 17, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> For 2019, I need to figure out where I'm buying from first. Then I'll decide, based on what they offer.


Was there a quality issue with the grapes you got last Fall? I was thinking of doing some of those if @jgmann67 was planning on purchasing from there again.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 17, 2019)

Even though I'm not a white guy I enjoyed making last years Sauv Blanc from grapes. I know it may be questionable whether making whites from grapes is worth it but I'm on this all grape kick. If the Sauv Blanc turn out as well as I think I will probably do it again and also considering Chenin Blanc from SA. For fall I would like to do local Traminette, Petit Manseng and possibly a Viognier. For the reds and again local I have to do a Tannat and Norton, these are musts. Would also like to do a GSM blend so I'll need a Grenache and Mourvedre. After these I'll just wait patiently to see what premuim fruits are available. Probably won't make as much as last year but who knows.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 17, 2019)

ceeaton said:


> Was there a quality issue with the grapes you got last Fall? I was thinking of doing some of those if @jgmann67 was planning on purchasing from there again.



So far, no. They aren't quite as good as the wines from Lanza grapes, but they are significantly less money, and pickup is less than an hour away.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 17, 2019)

ceeaton said:


> Was there a quality issue with the grapes you got last Fall? I was thinking of doing some of those if @jgmann67 was planning on purchasing from there again.



I have absolutely no complaints about my 2018 OVZ and am happy to go with WWM in 2019.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 17, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Even though I'm not a white guy I enjoyed making last years Sauv Blanc from grapes. I know it may be questionable



Sure is questionable Fred. Certainly had me fooled! 
(Lol Couldn’t resist) 

Back to OP—- Cab Franc sounds like a hella good
Idea jgmann. One of my top choices. Although I’m not against repeating my previous batches either. Actually as I type I’m liking the thought more. Increasing those odds to make something better than the initial


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## mainshipfred (Jan 17, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Sure is questionable Fred. Certainly had me fooled!
> (Lol Couldn’t resist)
> 
> Back to OP—- Cab Franc sounds like a hella good
> Idea jgmann. One of my top choices. Although I’m not against repeating my previous batches either. Actually as I type I’m liking the thought more. Increasing those odds to make something better than the initial



With you on the forum I better be careful what I type. LOL! After reading your response I'm surprised you beat @sour_grapes to it.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 17, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> With you on the forum I better be careful what I type. LOL! After reading your response I'm surprised you beat @sour_grapes to it.



I certainly thought about riffing on that. Then I decided that discretion was the better part of valor.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 17, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> I certainly thought about riffing on that. Then I decided that discretion was the better part of valor.



Glad I wasn't the only one.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 17, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> I certainly thought about riffing on that. Then I decided that discretion was the better part of valor.



Ahh. So you “thought”? I tend to do that afterwards. [emoji6]


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## buzi (Jan 17, 2019)

I made a cab-sauv in 2014 that was a crowd pleaser. That lead me to make a Tuscan blend in 2015 which also turned out well also. I will be blending a 2016 super Tuscan this year so knock on wood! Any suggestions for the Cab/Merlot/Sangio blend ratio?

Jgmann- pick a different grape every year even if it is a small batch. Play with the yeasts. Then blend different grapes till you find your style. That is the beauty of our hobby. And the brilliance is in the creativity. Good luck!


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## Ajmassa (Jan 18, 2019)

buzi said:


> I made a cab-sauv in 2014 that was a crowd pleaser. That lead me to make a Tuscan blend in 2015 which also turned out well also. I will be blending a 2016 super Tuscan this year so knock on wood! Any suggestions for the Cab/Merlot/Sangio blend ratio?



I did a Tuscan field blend in 2017. 
Sangiovese 50% Cab 25% Merlot 25%

If I had a do-over I’d make the cab 50% and sangio 25%. The sangio grapes were lighter than anticipated, and now so is the wine. But thems the breaks with field blends


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## pgentile (Jan 18, 2019)

For me it's too early to think about 2019 fall grapes, that's cause I'm thinking about spring 2019 grapes from South Africa and Chile. Definitely will do grapes from SA but might try the juice buckets as well. All my spring juice buckets to date have been from Chile.

White guy or red guy @mainshipfred , you need tread carefully these days.


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## heatherd (Jan 19, 2019)

I want to get in on the Washington winemakers with you guys this year, @mainshipfred @jgmann67 @ceeaton. Totally in!


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## mainshipfred (Jan 19, 2019)

heatherd said:


> I want to get in on the Washington winemakers with you guys this year, @mainshipfred @jgmann67 @ceeaton. Totally in!



I'll be a nice get together and you'll have the easiest drive. But I'm not ruling out S&S now that I know how they work.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 19, 2019)

heatherd said:


> I want to get in on the Washington winemakers with you guys this year, @mainshipfred @jgmann67 @ceeaton. Totally in!



Plus, pou forgot @Boatboy24 and possibly @gitmo234


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## ceeaton (Jan 19, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Plus, pou forgot @Boatboy24 and possibly @gitmo234


Fred, I'm lookin' at my keyboard. I'm assuming you meant you and not pou. You know there are three keys in between those two letters on the keyboard. Have uins been drinkin'?


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## jgmann67 (Jan 20, 2019)

Last year, I bought 6gal of OVZ juice and 4 lugs of OVZ grapes. The fellow that admins WW looked at me funny when I told him I was going to ferment them together. He asked “Why would you do that?”

Am I missing something?? I wanted to say, “because I can’t afford 8 lugs.” 

The wine came out brilliantly this season. No glitches with MLF and it tastes very good at its young age.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 20, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> Last year, I bought 6gal of OVZ juice and 4 lugs of OVZ grapes. The fellow that admins WW looked at me funny when I told him I was going to ferment them together. He asked “Why would you do that?”
> 
> Am I missing something?? I wanted to say, “because I can’t afford 8 lugs.”
> 
> The wine came out brilliantly this season. No glitches with MLF and it tastes very good at its young age.



That's great it's becoming a good wine but I can see his point. If it were me I would have fermented the juice and grapes separately or perhaps kept the juice frozen and added the skins after press. They could always have been blended back together although I do sometimes make things more difficult then they have to be.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 20, 2019)

ceeaton said:


> Fred, I'm lookin' at my keyboard. I'm assuming you meant you and not pou. You know there are three keys in between those two letters on the keyboard. Have uins been drinkin'?



I must have really fat fingers but it was racking and tasting day.


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## Keith5 (Jan 21, 2019)

I’ve just made 2 wine kits and a few gallons of fruit wine as I’m learning in this past year. 
I want to get grapes and/or grape juice to make a 6 gallon batch but.... where to get the grapes ? I Live in New Orleans and it seems if you live on east or west coast you can easily obtain grapes but no LBS here has any idea where/how to get them. 
Does anyone live near New Orleans and we can get some type of plan going?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 21, 2019)

Keith5 said:


> I’ve just made 2 wine kits and a few gallons of fruit wine as I’m learning in this past year.
> I want to get grapes and/or grape juice to make a 6 gallon batch but.... where to get the grapes ? I Live in New Orleans and it seems if you live on east or west coast you can easily obtain grapes but no LBS here has any idea where/how to get them.
> Does anyone live near New Orleans and we can get some type of plan going?



Maybe @Johnd can help.


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## Johnd (Jan 21, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Maybe @Johnd can help.



Indeed. @Keith5 , send me a PM. I’m in Mandeville and get fresh Cali grapes every fall. If you’re just looking for a few lugs, shouldn’t be an issue.


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## jgmann67 (Jul 30, 2019)

I got an email this morning from F. Colavita & Son with some info on this year's grapes. According to their observations, Northern California is at least 2 weeks behind "normal maturity." They "don't see any harvest before September 1st." But, the quality and yields should be decent this year.


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## CDrew (Jul 30, 2019)

Weather has been great so far this summer. A few hot days to push things along. But this am for instance I was almost cold walking to work. I’m about 20 miles straight north of Lodi. 

Just based on last year, I’m thinking the second week in October will be the start for me. Need to do a bunch of bottling first.


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## mainshipfred (Jul 30, 2019)

CDrew said:


> Weather has been great so far this summer. A few hot days to push things along. But this am for instance I was almost cold walking to work. I’m about 20 miles straight north of Lodi.
> 
> Just based on last year, I’m thinking the second week in October will be the start for me. Need to do a bunch of bottling first.



I'm with you on the bottling. The whites especially are sneaking up on us.


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## franc1969 (Aug 6, 2019)

Making plans, but so little space. Annapolis Homebrew has ordering up, Washington Winemakers not yet. My Pittsburgh trip is turning out to be too early, so not from Consumers unless I make a special trip later, maybe the Philly place the same. Anyone but fred tried dealing with S&S in Jessup? Are they purely roll up to buy, no pre-purchase?


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## bluecrab (Aug 6, 2019)

I went to S&S last year. Their grapes were from Lodi. Like you say, just roll up and buy. I don’t believe they take credit cards, so bring cash or check. They were very friendly. I’ll buy from them again this Fall.


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## Jal5 (Aug 6, 2019)

I will do merlot juice bucket from Consumers in PGH and add grapes to it which will be a first for me. Maybe another different bucket not sure yet.


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## franc1969 (Aug 6, 2019)

Great- did you just call for what they had in? I am trying to decide how.to plan for what comes in when or just get everything at once from WW.


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## bluecrab (Aug 6, 2019)

I think all of the grapes arrived around September 20 last year. Here’s a list of what they offer.

http://sandswinegrapes.com/grapes.html

They announce when the grapes are in on their Facebook page.

https://m.facebook.com/sswinegrapes/


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## mainshipfred (Aug 7, 2019)

bluecrab said:


> I went to S&S last year. Their grapes were from Lodi. Like you say, just roll up and buy. I don’t believe they take credit cards, so bring cash or check. They were very friendly. I’ll buy from them again this Fall.



Did you go to their party last year. They have wine and food but people also bring their wine. Very informal and you're right they are very nice people. They just didn't have what I wanted so I didn't buy anything. Hopefully when the party comes around they will have something I want.


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## bluecrab (Aug 7, 2019)

I was traveling, so I wasn’t able to go. It looks like fun and a good tradition for them.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 13, 2019)

List of available grapes and juice from WW will be sent in the next few days. 

Orders due Sep 16th. Pick up scheduled for Sep 28th.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 14, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> List of available grapes and juice from WW will be sent in the next few days.
> 
> Orders due Sep 16th. Pick up scheduled for Sep 28th.



Make sure you sign up for the new email system. Evidently I was the first to do so.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 14, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Make sure you sign up for the new email system. Evidently I was the first to do so.



I wasn't sure based on Jim Gearing's email how to sign up to their new email system. It said to send an email to subscribe, but wasn't clear to whom I should send it (I assume Jim Gearing). I asked.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 14, 2019)

Click on the link on the email and it walks you through it.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 14, 2019)

Got an email from Jim and he walked me through it. I’m on the list now.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 16, 2019)

Glad I saw this. I just thought Jim was going to send instructions of some kind. How do you sign up?


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## mainshipfred (Aug 16, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Glad I saw this. I just thought Jim was going to send instructions of some kind. How do you sign up?



Just click on the groups.io link and it will walk you through it. It was pretty easy for me so you should have no problem.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 16, 2019)

I think I’m in now. Looks like only 4 members so far. And I know who three of them are.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 16, 2019)

Mrs Mann suggested that I take a year off from making wine from grapes this year because we might be moving.... I told her to come back to me when we ARE moving. I honestly doubt we’re going anywhere this year. 

But if it happens, moving a primary with 6 lugs of grapes could be an adventure.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 16, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> Mrs Mann suggested that I take a year off from making wine from grapes this year because we might be moving.... I told her to come back to me when we ARE moving. I honestly doubt we’re going anywhere this year.
> 
> But if it happens, moving a primary with 6 lugs of grapes could be an adventure.



Unacceptable!


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 16, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> Mrs Mann suggested that I take a year off from making wine from grapes this year because we might be moving.... I told her to come back to me when we ARE moving. I honestly doubt we’re going anywhere this year.
> 
> But if it happens, moving a primary with 6 lugs of grapes could be an adventure.



Meh. I moved a dozen full carboys, a couple full barrels, 25 cases of full bottles. Granted, none of them were an open primary, but I think you'd come up with an acceptable solution.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 16, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Meh. I moved a dozen full carboys, a couple full barrels, 25 cases of full bottles. Granted, none of them were an open primary, but I think you'd come up with an acceptable solution.



You know the more I think about it I don't think it's Mrs Mann. I really think Jim is getting lazy on us.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 16, 2019)

I’m getting too old for this sh#t. 

If we move, I’ll have about 20 cases of wine and 5 carboys to move. This would only increase that to 8, worst case.

If I have to put it somewhere, I thought I’d impose on Craig to watch it for me.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 22, 2019)

Haven’t seen anything yet from WW. Surprised.


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## Johnd (Aug 22, 2019)

Spoke with Colavita, full array of grapes like last year, good availability, and mostly lower prices, especially on the cab Sauvignon. Music to my ears!!!


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## ibglowin (Aug 22, 2019)

Don't you have people? LOL



jgmann67 said:


> I’m getting too old for this sh#t.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 22, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> Don't you have people? LOL



I am the one man, wine making, band.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 31, 2019)

WW price listing is out! Going to take the weekend to settle on what I’m making and get something out to Jim Gearing.


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## jgmann67 (Aug 31, 2019)

I’m thinking about 3 lugs or barbera and a blend of Cab and Syrah (two lugs each).


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## mainshipfred (Sep 1, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> I’m thinking about 3 lugs or barbera and a blend of Cab and Syrah (two lugs each).



7 lugs should make your trip worthwhile.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 1, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> 7 lugs should make your trip worthwhile.



I think you’re right. It could be more. Waiting to hear back from my brother.


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## ceeaton (Sep 3, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> If I have to put it somewhere, I thought I’d impose on Craig to watch it for me.


I think the evaporation rate from the carboy might be to high for your liking if stored in my basement... I'm not sure I've seen any carboy tipping insurance on the market.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 3, 2019)

Yep, you've got to remember that Craig has those gas permeable carboys.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 6, 2019)

No word from my brothers. Looks like what I’m ordering is 7 lugs.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 8, 2019)

I’m thinking a little simpler is better. Probably only doing the field blend (just more of it).


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 8, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> I’m thinking a little simpler is better. Probably only doing the field blend (just more of it).



I'm doing two 'double' (6 lugs) field blends this year. Plus some Virginia whites.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 12, 2019)

S&S is having their party on Saturday starting at 11:00. They will have some grapes in but weren't able to tell me which ones. I'm going to go, is anyone else interested. Depending on what they have in it may be a wasted trip. I'm looking for Nebbiola and Grenache.


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## franc1969 (Sep 12, 2019)

Did you have to call and ask about this? I keep forgetting to call when they might be open, and they suck at social media postings. Like, none, in a year.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 12, 2019)

franc1969 said:


> Did you have to call and ask about this? I keep forgetting to call when they might be open, and they suck at social media postings. Like, none, in a year.



I just happened to notice on their website the prices were listed so I called and they told me about the party. When I got home I had a post card from them. Are you going?


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## franc1969 (Sep 12, 2019)

I might go- not sure if intended event is going to happen that afternoon. If they have what I want, then don't have to go to WashingtonWinemakers. Jessup is simpler for me, and if I need anything I can go to MDHomebrew on the way home.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 12, 2019)

franc1969 said:


> I might go- not sure if intended event is going to happen that afternoon. If they have what I want, then don't have to go to WashingtonWinemakers. Jessup is simpler for me, and if I need anything I can go to MDHomebrew on the way home.



Confused with what you mean by "not sure if intended event is going to happen that afternoon", do you know something I don't?


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## franc1969 (Sep 12, 2019)

Sorry, I am doing other things and not clear. I am supposed to have a workshop, I won't go to S&S if held. Organizers haven't canceled even though they are below headcount, and haven't refunded yet.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 12, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> S&S is having their party on Saturday starting at 11:00. They will have some grapes in but weren't able to tell me which ones. I'm going to go, is anyone else interested. Depending on what they have in it may be a wasted trip. I'm looking for Nebbiola and Grenache.



I have a noon baseball game, which means fielding and BP starting at 11. Would be curious to hear what they have and how it looks/tastes though.


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## franc1969 (Sep 12, 2019)

I called S&S. They have about half their juice bucket types in already, grapes start arriving Saturday and into next week. They don't know what's coming first truck, but the Riesling is next week. Apparently Gewurztraminer is a 'yes, next week too', even though not on price list.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 26, 2019)

So this will be a first for me. I'm not going to be available to pick up grapes and Craig has graciously agreed to run down to pick up/crush for me. I'm thinking that I'll give them attention that Sunday when I get home. But, questions for the good of the order: Should we hit them with SO2 on that Saturday so the wild yeast doesn't run amok by the time I get home (I've never sulfited my crush)? With 20 gallons of must, we're talking a tsp, right? Then wait a day to add the enzyme?


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## mainshipfred (Sep 26, 2019)

Jim, I never sulfite at crush either and always though the number if you did was 50 ppm. According to FermCalc and using 15 ppm free (this is an assumption since I have no idea how much is given off by the sulfite pads) and taking it to 50 ppm at a pH of 3.8 (another assumption) it requires 64 grams of powered K-meta. I kept adding tsps and it took 7 to get to 56 grams for the 20 gallons. I don't want to mislead you hopefully someone else will check my numbers.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 26, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Jim, I never sulfite at crush either and always though the number if you did was 50 ppm. According to FermCalc and using 15 ppm free (this is an assumption since I have no idea how much is given off by the sulfite pads) and taking it to 50 ppm at a pH of 3.8 (another assumption) it requires 64 grams of powered K-meta. I kept adding tsps and it took 7 to get to 56 grams for the 20 gallons. I don't want to mislead you hopefully someone else will check my numbers.



This is the instruction in the guide I saw that begged the question:

SO2 Addition: Use 50 ppm (1.65 g or 1⁄4 tsp of potassium metabisulphite) per 5 gallons of must to inhibit wild yeast and bacteria. Add SO2 as soon as the fruit is crushed. Make sure to mix completely throughout the entire volume. Allow approximately 4–24 hours for the SO2 to work before adding yeast or enzymes.

It references a “1/4 tsp per 5 gallon” With 20 gallons of must, that’s 4 x 1/4 tsp = 1 tsp for 20 gal. Just making sure I’m reading that right.

If this were a matter of hours, I’d just leave it. But a full day, I’m a little more cautious.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 26, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> This is the instruction in the guide I saw that begged the question:
> 
> SO2 Addition: Use 50 ppm (1.65 g or 1⁄4 tsp of potassium metabisulphite) per 5 gallons of must to inhibit wild yeast and bacteria. Add SO2 as soon as the fruit is crushed. Make sure to mix completely throughout the entire volume. Allow approximately 4–24 hours for the SO2 to work before adding yeast or enzymes.
> 
> ...



Oops, my glasses were dirty. I went back and looked and had 505 ppm as the target. Good thing you didn't listen to me. Correcting my mistake it is now 4.6 grams so you are correct.


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## Johnd (Sep 26, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> So this will be a first for me. I'm not going to be available to pick up grapes and Craig has graciously agreed to run down to pick up/crush for me. I'm thinking that I'll give them attention that Sunday when I get home. But, questions for the good of the order: Should we hit them with SO2 on that Saturday so the wild yeast doesn't run amok by the time I get home (I've never sulfited my crush)? With 20 gallons of must, we're talking a tsp, right? Then wait a day to add the enzyme?



If you plan to do MLF, I wouldn't hit it with sulfite if the fruit is good. C/D into the fermenters with enzyme on Saturday, it'll be ready for you to run numbers / adjust and pitch yeast on Sunday. Any inferior yeast that may try to get a foothold will be quickly overwhelmed by your yeast.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 26, 2019)

Johnd said:


> If you plan to do MLF, I wouldn't hit it with sulfite if the fruit is good. C/D into the fermenters with enzyme on Saturday, it'll be ready for you to run numbers / adjust and pitch yeast on Sunday. Any inferior yeast that may try to get a foothold will be quickly overwhelmed by your yeast.



Yes I am planning to co-inoculate. Thank you for the wise counsel as always John.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 26, 2019)

Will miss you at the pickup, Jim. @ceeaton: looking forward to the meetup.

Jim: I'll give a bottle of the Rose to Craig for you. If you don't get it, we know what happened. LOL!


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## jgmann67 (Sep 26, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Will miss you at the pickup, Jim. @ceeaton: looking forward to the meetup.
> 
> Jim: I'll give a bottle of the Rose to Craig for you. If you don't get it, we know what happened. LOL!



We’re trying to work out logistics on getting you one of my roses.


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## ceeaton (Oct 3, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Will miss you at the pickup, Jim. @ceeaton: looking forward to the meetup.
> 
> Jim: I'll give a bottle of the Rose to Craig for you. If you don't get it, we know what happened. LOL!


Too many Jim's in this equation, I'm older and easily confused. So let me get this right, I'm giving a @jgmann67 Jim bottle of Rose to @Boatboy24 Jim, and receiving one back that I have to protect from me and my wife. I think I've got this...

@Boatboy24 Jim, did I promise you any of my wines in the past? I have an at times faulty long term memory array.


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 3, 2019)

I'm gonna bring a few bottles to give. Don't know what yet. I think you all have the best of my older stuff, and my 2017's just got bottled. It may have to be one of those 'take this wine, and don't drink it for at least 6 months' trade.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 15, 2021)

This wine was tasting pretty good a year ago. Today, it’s sour in nose and taste.

I made a huge mistake with this wine. I accidentally left the wine on the oak cubes for an extended period of time... like almost 10 months. And it started forming clumpy bits before I realized my mistake. I racked and dosed the wine. But, the taste is way off. I’m going to rack it again.

Is there anything I can do to save this wine??


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## Ajmassa (Feb 15, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> This wine was tasting pretty good a year ago. Today, it’s sour in nose and taste.
> 
> I made a huge mistake with this wine. I accidentally left the wine on the oak cubes for an extended period of time... like almost 10 months. And it started forming clumpy bits before I realized my mistake. I racked and dosed the wine. But, the taste is way off. I’m going to rack it again.
> 
> Is there anything I can do to save this wine??



i wouldn’t think that would be caused by the oak in there for extra long tho. i’ve left oak inside the carboy fir super long times just like that as well— figuring once the oak is leached into the wine- what’s the harm? no different than a neutral barrel. 

my guess is the issue is from something else. “bitter” sounds like a trait of oxidized wine to me. Anything else u can think of besides the oak? headspace? poor bung seal? anything?


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## jgmann67 (Feb 16, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> i wouldn’t think that would be caused by the oak in there for extra long tho. i’ve left oak inside the carboy fir super long times just like that as well— figuring once the oak is leached into the wine- what’s the harm? no different than a neutral barrel.
> 
> my guess is the issue is from something else. “bitter” sounds like a trait of oxidized wine to me. Anything else u can think of besides the oak? headspace? poor bung seal? anything?



no. There was definitely something bacterial going on with the wine. I kept the carboys topped and sealed pretty well.


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## CDrew (Feb 16, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> i wouldn’t think that would be caused by the oak in there for extra long tho. i’ve left oak inside the carboy fir super long times just like that as well— figuring once the oak is leached into the wine- what’s the harm? no different than a neutral barrel.
> 
> my guess is the issue is from something else. “bitter” sounds like a trait of oxidized wine to me. Anything else u can think of besides the oak? headspace? poor bung seal? anything?



Agree. It sounds like the wine had access to O2, and the sour is acetic acid.

Again, the cube thing is likely not it. Once they give up what they have flavor wise, I think of them as neutral.

As a jump off-what's the pH?


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## VinesnBines (Feb 16, 2021)

You have a couple options. If VA, you might think of blending or making wine vinegar. This is a link to VA issues. The Perils of Volatile Acidity - WineMakerMag.com.

If it is oxidation think about sherry or madeira. 

Either (once you decide) is a great opportunity for experimentation and expansion. Though if VA, keep it from the wine making areas/equipment.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 16, 2021)

CDrew said:


> Agree. It sounds like the wine had access to O2, and the sour is acetic acid.
> 
> Again, the cube thing is likely not it. Once they give up what they have flavor wise, I think of them as neutral.
> 
> As a jump off-what's the pH?



I haven’t checked in a long time. It was in the 3.6 range the last I checked.

I wish I took pics of the floaters too. I think it would have helped.

if I can’t save it, I may just flush it (then drink the rest of the night and cry in my whiskey).


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## mainshipfred (Feb 16, 2021)

I always get confused but I think it's acetobacter the causes acetic acid but it may be the other way around. I believe acetobacter can be filtered out probably with a sterile filter but the only way to get rid of acetic acid is reverse osmosis. I have a Merlot that I made as a blender I'm fighting with myself and may do a .5 micron filter. If I do blend it it will be a small portion. It is one of the few wine faults that are sometime intentionally used to create complexity.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 16, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> I haven’t checked in a long time. It was in the 3.6 range the last I checked.





mainshipfred said:


> I always get confused but I think it's acetobacter the causes acetic acid but it may be the other way around. I believe acetobacter can be filtered out probably with a sterile filter but the only way to get rid of acetic acid is reverse osmosis. I have a Merlot that I made as a blender I'm fighting with myself and may do a .5 micron filter. If I do blend it it will be a small portion. It is one of the few wine faults that are sometime intentionally used to create complexity.




interestingly, I ordered a filter attachment for my AIO over the weekend with that thought in mind. Maybe filtering will help. I’ll test the wines this weekend and see what my ph is. When I get the equipment in and set up, we’ll run it through a 5 micron filter (then I’ll throw that filter in the trash).


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## CDrew (Feb 16, 2021)

The bacteria make the acetic acid. And if they have already made it, no reason to filter them out.

But no amount of 5 micron filtering is going to remove bacteria. Bacteria are said to be about 0.2 microns.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 16, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> interestingly, I ordered a filter attachment for my AIO over the weekend with that thought in mind. Maybe filtering will help. I’ll test the wines this weekend and see what my ph is. When I get the equipment in and set up, we’ll run it through a 5 micron filter (then I’ll throw that filter in the trash).


 You probably want as close to a .5 as you can get.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 16, 2021)

CDrew said:


> The bacteria make the acetic acid. And if they have already made it, no reason to filter them out.
> 
> But no amount of 5 micron filtering is going to remove bacteria. Bacteria are said to be about 0.2 microns.


 .45 absolute is supposed to be considered sterile. The closest I can get is .5 nominal. You're right, I just checked, acetobacter is the bacteria that causes acetic acid. If you are able to filter it out won't it stop the production of acetic acid. Although proper sulfite levels will also stop the production.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 16, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> .45 absolute is supposed to be considered sterile. The closest I can get is .5 nominal. You're right, I just checked, acetobacter is the bacteria that causes acetic acid. If you are able to filter it out won't it stop the production of acetic acid. Although proper sulfite levels will also stop the production.



So - the recommendations for filtering wines from Steve at AIO are 1 micron for white and 5 micron for red. Going fiber on reds will strip flavor and body. Are you saying use 5 micron or something much finer in the .5 range??


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## mainshipfred (Feb 16, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> So - the recommendations for filtering wines from Steve at AIO are 1 micron for white and 5 micron for red. Going fiber on reds will strip flavor and body. Are you saying use 5 micron or something much finer in the .5 range??



1 and 5 are for filtering sediment and not considered sterile so they won't filter the finer particles like yeasts, acetobacter and the like. I filter all my reds with a 5 just to be safe and whites with a one as he recommends. But you need a .5 to to get anywhere close to getting the smaller particles out.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 16, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> 1 and 5 are for filtering sediment and not considered sterile so they won't filter the finer particles like yeasts, acetobacter and the like. I filter all my reds with a 5 just to be safe and whites with a one as he recommends. But you need a .5 to to get anywhere close to getting the smaller particles out.



Okay. This is a ball buster... if it’s this or trash, guess it’s this. It’ll be lighter with less body, but it won’t be vinegar at least.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 16, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> Okay. This is a ball buster... if it’s this or trash, guess it’s this. It’ll be lighter with less body, but it won’t be vinegar at least.



If it is vinegar it's still going to be vinegar you're not going to filter that taste. All you are going to do is slow down the production but again the right amount of sulfites will do the same thing. I'll tell you this though, I had/have a 2018 PV that was so offensive to me I was giving it away as cooking wine. Last week a friend came to do some tastings and I could explain to her what VA tasted like so we opened a bottle. Right now I'm kicking myself in the butt for giving it away as it turned into something really nice.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 16, 2021)

Sometimes, our wines go through a funky adolescent stage. This might be that, or it might be something else. I'd check pH and sulfite levels. If they are in check, you might just need to give it time. If not, rack it and hit it with sulfite and see what happens.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 16, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> So - the recommendations for filtering wines from Steve at AIO are 1 micron for white and 5 micron for red. Going fiber on reds will strip flavor and body. Are you saying use 5 micron or something much finer in the .5 range??



Not sure if you have a typo with "going fiber" or whatnot. But if you are saying that filtering in the micron range strips molecules out of the wine, you are mistaken. 

Some have made the analogy that flavor molecules compared to sterile filter is like throwing a ping pong ball through soccer netting. In other words flavour molecules much too small to get caught in any filter we could do at home. However, this analogy is flawed because it is not dramatic enough. If the "flavor molecules" are the size of a ping pong ball, the gaps in the filter would be more like the distance BETWEEN THE SOCCER GOALS (on opposite ends of the soccer pitch). I.e., sterile filtering will do nothing to "filter" molecules related to your wine's flavor or body.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 17, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Not sure if you have a typo with "going fiber" or whatnot. But if you are saying that filtering in the micron range strips molecules out of the wine, you are mistaken.
> 
> Some have made the analogy that flavor molecules compared to sterile filter is like throwing a ping pong ball through soccer netting. In other words flavour molecules much too small to get caught in any filter we could do at home. However, this analogy is flawed because it is not dramatic enough. If the "flavor molecules" are the size of a ping pong ball, the gaps in the filter would be more like the distance BETWEEN THE SOCCER GOALS (on opposite ends of the soccer pitch). I.e., sterile filtering will do nothing to "filter" molecules related to your wine's flavor or body.



Typo. Fat thumbs. “Going finer”


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## sour_grapes (Feb 17, 2021)

Of course, it may be the case that some flavor molecules get adsorbed to the filter, say, in the case of a paper filter or the like... I don't know if that is ever the case.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 17, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Of course, it may be the case that some flavor molecules get adsorbed to the filter, say, in the case of a paper filter or the like... I don't know if that is ever the case.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 22, 2021)

I hit this with some fresh KMeta and filtered the wine using a 5 micron filter just to get any remaining particulate out of the wine. I’m going to let it sit for a week or two and taste it.

I ordered the filter set up for my AIO. Worked pretty well, too. Only real hang up for me is that there were bubbles in the “out” line. I check for a vacuum leak and couldn’t find anything. So I just kept going. Got all 16 gallons done, then threw away the filter and cleaned up.

But, is bubbles in the “out” line normal or do I need to recheck everything to see where they are coming from??


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## mainshipfred (Feb 22, 2021)

I can't speak for the AIO but my minijet does the same thing, at least at the beginning. FWIW I filtered my problemed Merlot Saturday with a 1 then a .5. Smelled and tasted awful so I just dumped it. It was only 3 gallons this time but I've been dealing with it since the 7 gallon beginning. If I remember correctly it was infected from the start and I have no idea why.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 22, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> I hit this with some fresh KMeta and filtered the wine using a 5 micron filter just to get any remaining particulate out of the wine. I’m going to let it sit for a week or two and taste it.
> 
> I ordered the filter set up for my AIO. Worked pretty well, too. Only real hang up for me is that there were bubbles in the “out” line. I check for a vacuum leak and couldn’t find anything. So I just kept going. Got all 16 gallons done, then threw away the filter and cleaned up.
> 
> But, is bubbles in the “out” line normal or do I need to recheck everything to see where they are coming from??



Did you mark your filter housing by tightening it up without a filter in it and close it until your marks line up?? I believe I get a few bubbles at the start with mine also, but it stops.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 22, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> Did you mark your filter housing by tightening it up without a filter in it and close it until your marks line up?? I believe I get a few bubbles at the start with mine also, but it stops.



Yep.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 22, 2021)

I always seem to have some bubbles, though a small amount and I don't worry about 'em.


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## jgmann67 (Mar 10, 2021)

Mrs Mann and I tasted the Cab-Syrah last night and are not disappointed - certainly not to the point of wanting to dump 16 gallons of wine down the drain. I'll want to check the pH the next testing day. But, if I've got this under control and adjust the pH as needed, is there any down side to running this through my barrel when I'm done with my 2020 wines? I worry about the possibility of ruining the barrel with vinegar wine.


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