# Wine Concentrate/Frozen Grape Juice



## NorthernWinos (Dec 26, 2005)

Okay, I have only made like 19 batches of wine so far.All have been fruit wines from recipes, most of which were out of the book WINEMAKING by Anderson & Anderson and from WINEMAKERS Recipe Handbook by Massaccesi.
Except for our apple wines I have always added 2 500 ml bottles of WineExpert [Red or White] Wine Grape Concentrate to each 5 or 6 gallon batch of fruit wines.
I see alot of people using Welch's or Old Orchard [etc.] type frozen grape juice in their wines....I imagine to add body to the wines.
So....my question is....What would be the difference??? other than the ca$h outlay??? Is it a matter of personal taste???? Would one work as well as the other????Just curious minds...inquiring??? What are your opinions??? Should I try one way and another the next time???Or just go with what I am doing???? Interested to see what you are all using????*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## AAASTINKIE (Dec 26, 2005)

Here's a link to the ultamate Welches wine!!




Fine Vine Wines Forum: X-71 Experimental Wine


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 26, 2005)

AAASTINKIE said:


> Here's a link to the ultamate Welches wine!!
> 
> 
> Fine Vine Wines Forum: X-71 Experimental Wine




Thanks AAASTINKIE...that was a great post!!!!I am a latecomer here and missed that Episode.
So, by now you must have tasted some of this wine...how was it????
I got a recipe from Ms.Spain for Welch's Concord Wine some time back through another Forum....and have in in a carboy ready to bottle, it is so good. We have been tasting it and can no longer reach it with the turkey baster/wine thief, so it is now time to bottle it.
But, in keeping with my ritual of putting 2 500 ml bottles of WineExpert Wine Grape Concentrate in my fruit wines I added 2 bottles of red concentrate to this Welch's wine...the S.G. got a bit high so I added water and ended up with 6 gallons....looks like by your standards I should have just started it with the high S.G.....but being older and wiser I added water.
I am planning on making a Welch's White Grape wine this winter and also planning the Pineapple Juice wine....still might throw in the WineExpert just in keeping with my new found tradition and to keep the Wine Supply Stores in business....Thanks again for a few grins!!!!


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## MedPretzel (Dec 26, 2005)

My 2 cents:


Concentrate is often times concentrate. If you're after "vinosity," you add concentrate. I have never used the WineExpert stuff, so I cannot comment on that. Welch's is Niagara (white) or Concord (red). 


If you want a bit of "grapiness" in your wines (a.k.a. vinosity), then add them. I think by adding the WinExpert's concentrate, you're doing the exact same thing -- possibly, though, with different grapes.


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 27, 2005)

MedPretzel said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> 
> Concentrate is often times concentrate.  If you're after "vinosity," you add concentrate.  I have never used the WineExpert stuff, so I cannot comment on that.  Welch's is Niagara (white) or Concord (red).
> ...



Okay, I like the 'Foxy' Grapey 'Vinosity' flavor that I got in the frozen Welch's Concord Grape Concentrate Wine....kind of expected that....I guess what I am gaining from the WineExpert Wine Grape Concentrate is the 'Viscosity' thickness....'Legs'...body. 
Some of the recipes in the book WINEMAKER'S Recipe Handbook give you a choice of 1# pound of raisins or 500ml of concentrate...so I guess it's the viscosity that you gain there, plus the elevated S.G. [sweetness]
The bottled concentrate is thicker and very strong in flavor. I have never made a grape kit wine, so imagine it must be liquid like that...Think you can add the bottled WineExpert type product to boost kit wines for more body.
So, think I will continue adding the WineExpert type product, but...also going to add the frozen product as well, it is less co$tly and will give the 'foxy' flavor a boost too...so, going to use them both now.
I see people in other threads getting the Welch's for under a dollar per container, think I better be watching for some sales and stock up on that product.


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## Maui Joe (Dec 27, 2005)

NW,


I use Bananas quite often in my fruit wines which tremendously increases the "body of the wine" which will often improve the mouthfeel of the wine when completed. The Bananas is a great "natural" aid in clarifying the wine as well. While heating the water prior to disolving the sugar, I add two-three pounds of "very ripe" Bananas simmering in the water until they are almost totally disolved.


The Bananas do not alter the taste to a noticeable extent in small additions like mentioned, however they do contribute some sugars, malic, and citric acids depending on the variety of the Bananas.


Hope this helps some.


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 27, 2005)

WOW!!!! That sounds like a good deal.....I would have thought bananas would have made a wine cloudy.Might be nice in a Pineapple Wine....am sure that you have made alot of that in Hawaii.....what wonderful wines you must make....? I imagine your bananas are alot better than what we get up here too....?
Bet you have an interesting bunch of recipes...share some with us for your fruit wines, like fruits we can get here or buy in a can.....Thanks!!!


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## Maui Joe (Dec 27, 2005)

I would gladly share my recipes..I guess at this time I should prepare to send them through Martina's posted link?


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 28, 2005)

Maui Joe said:


> NW,
> 
> 
> I use Bananas quite often in my fruit wines which tremendously increases the "body of the wine" which will often improve the mouthfeel of the wine when completed.  The Bananas is a great "natural"  aid in clarifying the wine as well.  While heating the water prior to disolving the sugar, I add two-three pounds of "very ripe" Bananas simmering in the water until they are almost totally disolved.
> ...



Is the 2-3# of Bananas for a gallon batch of wine or for a 5-6 gallon batch????I would imagine per one gallon, but thought I should ask....???Planning on adding them to a Pineapple/White Grape or Pineapple/Apple Wine, and the batch will be 5 or 6 gallons.Thanks!!!!*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## ms.spain (Dec 28, 2005)

Oooohhh... I've got one bottle of banana wine left-and I've got some pineapple/white grape , too.I may have to open these and try mixing in a glass.Banana/pineapple/white grape sounds purdy darn good!






Thanks for the inspiration!


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 28, 2005)

Can I come over??? Sounds like summer in a glass doesn't it?????
Got to get to a store one of these days....Got to empty a carboy too...or fire up the 8 gallon one and hope we can pick the darn thing up.
Too many good recipes floating around....too few carboys at my house.
Tell us how the blend tastes!!!!!


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## Maui Joe (Dec 28, 2005)

NW,


Sorry, I should of clarified the Banana addition. The 2-3 lb. is for the 1-gal. In my case, 3 lbs. of Bananas is actually 3-bananas. Our bananas are large. The "most important" issue is that the bananas have to be _really ripe._ The skins would be darkened where the banana would normally "over ripe"...this allows the banana to break down and disolve easily in the water. A grocerer would probably not want to sell them at top price being that they are not "cosmetically attractive" and you would probably get them for cheap or free.


Depending on the fruit used, I would lean more towards 2 lbs. per gallon especially if you're using "canned fruit" which would not give the maximum aromas and flavors compared to "fresh fruit."


The Bananas also can be frozen if you have more than you need. Make sure that you peel the skins off prior to freezing if you do not want to use the skins in your must. I have done both ways and found that the skins do provide extra tannin and sometimes maybe "too much" if tannin is also added in your recipe.


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks Maui Joe....looked up many recipes for Banana Wine since you mentioned this and figured it must have been per gallon.Going shopping real soon....Thanks again for your time.


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 29, 2005)

Picked up some supplies at the small local grocers today. They had ripe bananas in bags for 5#/.25 cent$....They were pretty ripe looking, like the skins were about 50% black. I expected them to be bruised and mushy but the insides were still firm and white.Would this be considered really ripe??? I diced some of them and froze them...will wait on the others till I find out if I should wait for them to get softer????
Have never made a banana wine, will be mixing these with Pineapple juice and Apple or White Grape....or...maybe all of the above, so might use 2 pounds of diced bananas per gallon....does that sound like enough????


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## Maui Joe (Dec 29, 2005)

50% Black is very good. I would sacrifice 1 banana and leave it out so that you can get a handle on "when is considered too much." Ripeness of bananas vary depending on the variety. I know that the "apple banana" will indeed kept longer on the counter regardless of how black the skin gets...opposed to the Chinese variety that we have in the islands. As the ripeness increases, the natural sugar level will also, thus reducing the acid taste. The aim here is to obtain the maximum ripeness for wine and cooking purposes which will increase in aromas. Reaching maximum ripeness, when simmering in water on the stove prior to adding sugar, you will notice that the banana will disolve like sugar when added. You might also want to hold back approximately 15% of the sugar in the recipe then add later when you check the S.G. target.


The amount of bananas added depends on what you are trying to achieve. I would use at least three (3) lbs. of banana when adding other juice like Pineapple, Apple, etc. The banana does not have a dominating flavor over the other fruits mentioned. If you are mainly going for the Banana flavor, then more like 3-5 lbs. per gallon with White Grape concentrate as a base would be my suggestion. You can always add "Banana Extract" at bottling time if you feel that the banana flavor did not come through. I have heard of these additions being done however never ventured in that direction. Hope this helps some!


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## peterCooper (Dec 29, 2005)

My father wouldn't eat a banana unless it was pretty black.
Freezing bananas will make them very mushy when they defrost so they will 
work into the wine very easily. I do it all the time for banana bread.


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## Maui Joe (Dec 29, 2005)

My Mom was the same way...they knew what max flavor was. So true about the freezer...no need to chop them up to freeze. I place them in a freezer bag whole, then weigh and mark the bag for later use. Dump them in the hot water and they are "good to go!"


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## txclifton (Dec 29, 2005)

My experience with naners

I added 16 bananas to a wine kit last Aug. I purchased this kit from George when he was clearing his shelves of anything other than WE. It was a 7.5 ltr kit. My first experience with a 7.5 ltr kit was that it was weak and had no mouth feel. I did some reading and figured I'd give it a try since I got a deal on the kit. Now, mind you, I was not trying to make banana wine, just give my kit some kick. 

The kit was a cab/merlot blend. I cut up the bananas, peel and all, and boiled them to kill the wild yeasts. Then once they cooled, I dumped them straight into the primary. I pitched the yeast and placed the fermentor into my shower. The next day the gas coming out of the airlock was violent, to say the least. It blew my hair back. 

I didn't take any SG reading but I can tell you that after bottling this wine just 2 weeks ago, it has some kick. I shared with some friends and it was a real hit. If I don't mention the word banana no one picks it out, but once I do, they all smell it. I later read that if I only wanted more mouth feel, and body, I should leave the peels out. It was a fun experiment, and the wine turned out great....I can't wait to taste it in 6 more months.

-Doug


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## Maui Joe (Dec 30, 2005)

Sounds like it will be a good wine.Yea, too much banana skins will cause a "bitter bite" that is almost impossible to get rid off. Bite a portion of a ripe banana skin and you will see how long that taste lingers in the mouth.


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## txclifton (Dec 30, 2005)

I must have been lucky,



since I don't detect a bitter bite. The peels were only in for less than a week. Maybe that's what saved me. I never thought about what tasting a peel would be like, I guess I assumed it was leaving some other essences behind. 

If I were to get another "discounted" 7.5ltr kit I would do this again for sure.....minus the peels of course....


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 30, 2005)

This is the good news from the Welch's WebPage:

One six-ounce glass of Welch's Purple 100% Grape Juice is a full serving of fruit.
For better heart health (and even to reduce the risk of some cancers), the USDA's Food Guide Pyramid recommends eating at least five servings of fruits and vegetables every day. Good news: A six-ounce glass of Welch's Purple 100% Grape Juice is one full serving of fruit!

So remember, every time you drink Welch's Purple 100% Grape Juice, made from Welch’s own Concord grapes, you may be helping to promote a healthy cardiovascular system—not bad for something that tastes so good! 

And good for you...!


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## bilbo-in-maine (Dec 30, 2005)

How much in a glass of wine made with Welch's? Maybe several glasses are 
needed...


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## Curt (Dec 30, 2005)

Bilbo,


I think you must be correct, after all the alcohol thins it out a quite a bit. You think a ratio of about three to one soundsclose toright? To make up for the thinning properties of alcohol, of course.


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## Maui Joe (Dec 30, 2005)

Excellent!









Been trying to explain that to my Wife, but she keeps shaking her head...


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## PolishWineP (Dec 31, 2005)

Red wines are very good for the heart and blood, so if the wine in your glass is white, put on your rose-colored glasses!


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## bilbo-in-maine (Dec 31, 2005)

Make sure your doctor has a pair too of those glasses too


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## masta (Dec 31, 2005)

All the proof you need;
*Polyphenols already identified in benefits of red wine to prevent cancer<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />*
<?amespace prefix = st1 ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficearttags" /><st1ate Month="3" Day="18" Year="2005">March 18, 2005</st1ate> – Drinking two to three glasses of red wine daily is good for the heart, says a Yale School of Medicine researcher. But he says it may be due to polyphenols in the wine, rather than the alcohol. Polyphenols in red wine have also been identified for helping prevent cancer.
"The current consensus is that it is not just the alcohol, but something else," said Bauer Sumpio, M.D., professor and section chief of vascular surgery in the Department of Surgery. "There are probably several mechanisms of protection from a cardiovascular viewpoint." 
He said researchers have been trying to pinpoint why red wine has a cardiovascular protective effect ever since the discovery of the so-called "French Paradox" in 1992 when researchers found a 40 percent lower mortality rate from ischemic heart disease among people in France despite the high amount of saturated fats in their diet. 
Sumpio said there are several studies showing drinking two to three ounces of alcohol each day has a beneficial effect, but any more than that and the alcohol begins to have a negative health effect. Studies comparing spirits, beer and wine show some benefit from spirits and beer, but an overwhelming benefit from drinking red wine. 
His laboratory found polyphenols, minus the alcohol, are powerful anti-oxidants. 

Polyphenols also are found in fruit, particularly berries, as well as green tea and chocolate. Anti-oxidants slow cell deterioration. The polyphenols also help prevent the build up of plaque on the smooth muscle cells, as well as inhibit platelet formation, which can lead to blood clotting. 
"A better understanding of the health benefits of red wine and perhaps the specific polyphenolic extracts with the described properties would be a great contribution to society," Sumpio said. 
_The study is published in the Journal of _<st1lace><st1laceName>_American_</st1laceName> <st1lace>_College_</st1lace></st1lace>_ of Surgeons - Co-authors Alfredo Cordova, M.D., La Scienya Jackson, M.D., and David Berke-Schlessel, of Yale. The research was supported in part by the North American Foundation for Limb Preservation. _
*Women Should Drink Wine for Healthy Heart, Another Study Says*
<st1ate Month="2" Day="15" Year="2005">Feb. 15, 2005</st1ate> - Drinking wine, but not beer or spirits, keeps women's hearts beating healthily finds new research of women, including seniors up to 75, in _Heart_. It is another of several recent studies pointing to wine having significant benefits for women.
Much of the research on the potential health benefits of alcohol has been done on men, and it is still not clear exactly why moderate amounts of wine seems to be good for heart health.
The purpose of this study was to test the hypothesis that alcohol consumption is positively related to heart rate variability (HRV) in coronary heart disease (CHD) and therefore that cardiac autonomic activity is potentially implicated in mediating the favorable effects of moderate drinking. 
Heart rate variability (HRV), the amount of fluctuation of the beat-to-beat differences, is known to be a reliable, noninvasive marker of autonomic nervous system activity, according to this Swedish research team. Decreased variability has been associated with an increased risk of heart disease and death.
“In this study of women with CHD we found that wine intake was associated with increased HRV independently of the potential confounding factors and of the intake of other beverages. In contrast, consumption of beer and spirits or the total amount of alcohol consumed did not relate significantly to any of the HRV parameters,” the authors say.
They studied 102 women under the age of 75, all survivors of a heart attack or heart surgery for blocked arteries. All participants were asked to record their alcohol intake for one week after a year. And after at least a year, a heart tracing (ECG) was taken over 24 hours during routine activities in all the participants, to test heart rate variability or HRV.
HRV was highest in women who drank 5 or more grams of alcohol a day, equivalent to more than half a standard unit, and lowest in those who drank no alcohol at all.
But further analysis showed that the type of alcohol consumed was important.
HRV was highest among women who drank wine, even after taking account of other influential factors, such as age, weight, and smoking habit. Beer and spirits had little impact on HRV.
The favorable effects on HRV may be one of the reasons why wine protects heart health, suggest the authors.
*About the Study*
“Compelling epidemiological evidence suggests that moderate intake of alcoholic beverages, especially wine, is associated with lower risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) morbidity and mortality,” say authors.
“Furthermore, moderate alcohol intake is related to reduced mortality after acute myocardial infarction (AMI). Mechanisms of this favourable effect of alcoholic beverages are not entirely clear; however, they may include increased high density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations, improved coagulation profile, lower levels of inflammation, greater insulin sensitivity, better endothelial function, reduced endothelin 1 synthesis, low density lipoprotein oxidation, and smooth muscle proliferation.”
Heart rate variability (HRV), the amount of fluctuation of the beat-to-beat differences, is known to be a reliable, noninvasive marker of autonomic nervous system activity, they say.
Decrease in HRV has been found to predict CHD morbidity and mortality in apparently healthy populations and in patients after an acute coronary event.
Relatively few studies have examined the associations between drinking habits and HRV parameters, and the results are conflicting. 
The purpose of this study was to test the hypothesis that alcohol consumption is positively related to HRV in CHD and therefore that cardiac autonomic activity is potentially implicated in mediating the favorable effects of moderate drinking. 
We assessed total alcohol consumption, consumption of different types of alcoholic beverages, and time and frequency domain parameters of HRV by using ambulatory ECG monitoring in women with CHD.
*What the authors say:*
In this study of women with CHD we found that wine intake was associated with increased HRV independently of the potential confounding factors and of the intake of other beverages. In contrast, consumption of beer and spirits or the total amount of alcohol consumed did not relate significantly to any of the HRV parameters.
Convincing evidence suggests that alcohol consumption at moderate levels decreases CHD morbidity and mortality. 
Moreover, recent studies found lower mortality after myocardial infarction among patients with moderate alcohol intake. Why moderate alcohol intake is associated inversely with CHD is not completely clear. 
A positive effect of alcohol on lipid profile is consistently reported. For instance, Langer and colleagues claimed that about half of the observed protection against CHD afforded by moderate alcohol consumption is mediated by an increase in high density lipoprotein. 

Other candidates for the favorable effect are decreased fibrinogen, decreased platelet activity, lower levels of inflammation, greater insulin sensitivity, better endothelial function, reduced endothelin 1 synthesis, reduced low density lipoprotein oxidation, and smooth muscle proliferation.
Given the compelling evidence that decreased HRV is an independent predictor of CHD mortality,– the present findings suggest that an increase in HRV may be a potential pathway for the protective effect of moderate alcohol consumption on CHD.
Whether the effect of moderate alcohol consumption on CHD is attributable to ethanol alone or if there are beverage specific differences is debated. 
A recent review concluded that wine drinkers are at a decreased risk of death from cardiovascular disease compared with non-wine drinkers, whereas other meta-analyses found that wine drinking confers no particular benefit. However, in this study wine was the only independent determinant of HRV among the alcoholic beverages, suggesting that only wine may have favorable effects mediated by this pathway.
*Authors’ affiliations*
I. Janszky, M Blom, A Georgiades, H Alinagizadeh, S Ahnve, Preventive Medicine, Department of Public Health Sciences, Karolinska Institute, and Centre of Public Health, Stockholm County Council, Stockholm, Sweden
M. Ericson, Department of Industrial Economics, Royal Institute of Technology, <st1lace><st1:City>Stockholm</st1:City>, <st1ountry-region>Sweden</st1ountry-region></st1lace>


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