# The best hybrid variety for winemaking?



## blumentopferde (May 16, 2013)

Hello!

I would like to know which hybrid variety you think delivers the best taste. I've been trying really a lot of different wines made from european hybrid varieties so far (I'm from Europe and you won't find american breedings there) and none of them could compete with a well-done wine made from viniferas...

But as I have a small vineyard and powdery mildew gives me a hard time each year, I don't want to give up on them! But still I'm not so much interested in whether it will actually grow in my vineyard - I'm more interested in them as a wine-drinker, who wants to explore new varieties.

So what do you think, is there any hybrid-variety that could compete with a well-done classic vinifera, such as Riesling or Pinot Noir, taste-wise? Or do they all have a "different" taste (which I think is actually a transcription for "awkward"  )?


----------



## ibglowin (May 16, 2013)

Please do a search, there a lot of threads on cold hardy hybrids and which ones are turning out fantastic wines these days


----------



## manvsvine (May 19, 2013)

http://www.doubleavineyards.com/t-factsheets.aspx

The two red varieties getting the most aclaim recently are carrot noir and noiret , both exhibit good tannin and no hybrid foxiness. 

I've made noiret and was very happy with its vinifera like character. I much prefer it to norton and chambouchin

For whites traminette and Vidal produce excellent vinifera character


----------



## blumentopferde (May 19, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> http://www.doubleavineyards.com/t-factsheets.aspx
> 
> The two red varieties getting the most aclaim recently are carrot noir and noiret , both exhibit good tannin and no hybrid foxiness.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the hints!
Especially Traminette seems interesting to me (The region wehere I have my vineyard is excellent for Gewurztraminer)!
Now I'll just have to find a few wines or vines, to get a picture of it ;D


----------



## Turock (May 23, 2013)

I really agree with the Vidal,also. That is one NICE white wine.


----------



## spaniel (May 23, 2013)

I won't claim the most discerning taste buds, but I have been having an easy time making very good wine from Cayuga White. Conversely, I think it will take another year or two in order to figure out Marachel Foch.


----------



## JohnT (May 24, 2013)

Why not have your soil make the call? Have it tested and seek a recomendation on what will grow best in it.


----------



## GreginND (May 24, 2013)

Marquette and petite pearl for reds. Brianna, Frontenac blanc and lacrescent for whites.


----------



## Macuser (May 25, 2013)

There are a lot of commercial winemakers in the Midwest growing Seyval Blanc, Traminette, Vidal Blanc, Marquette, Chamborcin, and Regant. I've had wine from all of these grapes and they can be quite good.


----------



## blumentopferde (May 26, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Why not have your soil make the call? Have it tested and seek a recomendation on what will grow best in it.



I'm still waiting for the results... But I can still say that it is a very heavy soil with a very high clay conent (~50%), a high iron content (the soil is red!) and no lime content at all!



Macuser said:


> There are a lot of commercial winemakers in the Midwest growing Seyval Blanc, Traminette, Vidal Blanc, Marquette, Chamborcin, and Regant. I've had wine from all of these grapes and they can be quite good.


I've tried Regent several times and I always found it horrible. It's tannins are definitely to bold and coarse for me. How about the other suggested reds (Corot Noir, Noiret, Marquette, Petite Pearl etc. - why do actually all the new american hybrids have french names?!) are they similar to regent or a bit "softer"?


----------



## bellmtbbq (May 26, 2013)

blumentopferde said:


> I'm still waiting for the results... But I can still say that it is a very heavy soil with a very high clay conent (~50%), a high iron content (the soil is red!) and no lime content at all!
> 
> I've tried Regent several times and I always found it horrible. It's tannins are definitely to bold and coarse for me. How about the other suggested reds (Corot Noir, Noiret, Marquette, Petite Pearl etc. - why do actually all the new american hybrids have french names?!) are they similar to regent or a bit "softer"?



I think you either had a poorly made Regent or your going to have trouble with red wines in general. Regent does have nice, significant tannins compared to most hybrids, but not like a. Cab or a Syrah. I'm guessing the Regent grapes were unripe and the tannins were not substantial but harsh and green. Try a well made bottle from Hollywood Hills. 

Also, if you have a harsh vintage of grapes, or want to make a soft red, such as a Pinot, you could do a delestage by racking or by using an aquarium pump. Read up on it if you want super light tannins.


That being said, if it's still too much, try Corot Noir or Marquette. Both have very little tannins, if fully, fully+ ripe.. I think Marquette will still give you enough tannin structure to back up the fruit flavors- try a bottle of cold-climate Pinot like Puget Sound, if you can't find Marquette, although its a fairly accessible red.

I'm planting Marquette and Brianna next week along with some Zinfandel and Cab Sauv.


----------



## Boatboy24 (May 26, 2013)

I'm curious about Chambourcin, as I think it grows fairly well around here. Anyone know of a good commercial one?


----------



## NashChic (May 27, 2013)

I'm curious about chambourcin as well. I plan to plant a few grapes next spring & it seems it's suitable for the area. It's pretty much at the top of my list right now, but I haven't found much about the wine it produces or the characteristics to expect from actual growers of chambourcin.


----------



## blumentopferde (May 27, 2013)

bellmtbbq said:


> I think you either had a poorly made Regent or your going to have trouble with red wines in general. Regent does have nice, significant tannins compared to most hybrids, but not like a. Cab or a Syrah. I'm guessing the Regent grapes were unripe and the tannins were not substantial but harsh and green. Try a well made bottle from Hollywood Hills.
> 
> Also, if you have a harsh vintage of grapes, or want to make a soft red, such as a Pinot, you could do a delestage by racking or by using an aquarium pump. Read up on it if you want super light tannins.
> 
> ...



Well, I am from Europe so it will be pretty hard for me to find ANY american cold-climate-wine! Still I'm interested in them as european hybrids (such as Regent) didn't convince me.

I've tried 3 different German Regent wines and I'm pretty sure that none of these wines lacked ripeness (Regent ripes very early!). Also the wines had low acidity levels and the tannins didn't have the typical "green" tastes you would expect from an unripe wine. Still the wines had a somewhat leathery and sometimes vegetal taste, that reminded of beetroot :<

I'll definitely try to get hold of some american hybrids, that's one of my projects for the future (besides getting some Pinotage vines which is also almost impossible to find in Europe). I have no hurry with this, so I have plenty of time for research 

Thank you for the tip about the delestage! Never heard about that before!


----------



## GreginND (May 27, 2013)

Good luck in your hybrid tasting journey. Just keep in mind I think there are as many different wines from one grape as there are different varieties to try. Do not judge a variety based on just a few examples. I've had terrible hybrid wines and I've had the same grape produce absolute gems with the right hands guiding it. In my opinion we still do not know all there is to know about what these GRAPES want to be. We often tend to force hybrids into classic vinifera wine styles and that may not always be best. The important thing is to leave your mind open and taste as many as possible.


----------



## bellmtbbq (May 28, 2013)

If your European, it'll take 5+ years to import American varieties to the EU. Not worth the effort of the expense. 

Regent is attractive though because it gives you, as a winemaker, enough to work with and still make a structured dry red wine. With many hybrids, there's no tannins, minimal Brix levels, and low-medium color extraction. Regent gives you plenty of resources due to all the vinifera heritage, you as a winemaker need to tone it down and adjust it to your liking. I would blame poorly made Regents on the winemaker, not the grapes or even your palate. You just need to know some tricks to minimize tannins. 

There are European growers who grow Chambourcin, which is a nice, if not spectacular cold hardy grape you could try growing. I've also heard some really good things about Leon Millot, but I'm afraid it's too warm to grow here. I'm right on the line between hybrids and Bordeaux vinifera, so its tough. I think there is some Landot Noir in Europe, but not 100% sure about that. I'm sure Rick will chime in with some details on these varietals. 

Marechal Foch isn't half bad, either. 


With whites, you have more options. Seyval blanc or vidal blanc are both nice. Edelweiss can be tough but built for northern Europe. Of course, Riesling is an absolute killer in cold climates, a must have. Finally, depending on how temperate you are, you could make a nice sauvignon blanc, which has taken off in cool climate areas like New Zealand.


The problem is there aren't much European hybrids, and the ones out there, probably either produce crappy fruit in the hybridization rush in the late 19th century or are as tricky to grow as vinifera- minus the root louse garbage...

I personally say, if you have enough growing days in a season, buy some good, grafted Pinots of a cooler-climate clone, and some Riesling vines, and go for it. I think that's the best chance you have.


----------



## manvsvine (May 29, 2013)

Hybrids are banned in France and some other eu countries for commercial production and there are import restrictions against them in some places so interspecific hybrids might be challenging to find.

I'd try to find some of the Austrian German and Swiss bread early ripening vinifera varieties , these are pure vinifera crosses but bread for colder climates.

Not sure where in Europe you are but zweigelt (zweigelterebbe) which is a pure vinifera cross between blaufrankische and st Laurent is a good bet for easy to ripen red . It's Austria's most planted red. It buds late to avoid frost and ripens early . And it makes a nice northern Rhone style red.
Austrian nurseries might be a good place to start .
http://www.austrianwine.com/our-wine/grape-varieties/

Pinot noir precoce or Fruhburgunder is an early ripening Pinot noir variety grown in England Canada Austria Switzerland and Germany .

Baccus and Ortega are early ripening reisling crosses that are commonly grown in England Germany and Vancouver island and they make great white wine that I can't tell from reisling.

Switzerland makes some very nice wine from chasselas (fendent) , petite arvine is their best white .

The easiest to ripen pure vinifera white is seigerebbe , it's very aromatic and ripens in August in England , let it hang till the end of September and it can hit 30 brix great for a dessert wine.

Muller Thurgau is also widely grown , it's easy to grow but not that flavour full so is usually blended with 10-20 percent seigerebbe .

All of these are pure vinifera clones easy to ripen and available in Europe . 

Where in Europe are you? It might help give you advice on what to plant.


----------



## GreginND (May 29, 2013)

It's kind of silly. Isn't everything a hybrid of something?


----------



## manvsvine (May 29, 2013)

Inter species hybrids require man influance to cross breed , it won't happen spontaneously like vinifera to vinifera crosses , the most well known spontaneous child being Cabernet Sauvignon .

Doc /aoc / Ava rules don't allow non vinifera grapes , it's a quality thing . Inter specific hybrids just aren't as good for winemaking as vinifera grown in an appropriate location or terroir. Hybrids are getting better every year but vinifera is still the high water mark.

There are many North American Ava that also don't allow hybrids in Ava labeled wines.


----------



## blumentopferde (May 29, 2013)

bellmtbbq said:


> If your European, it'll take 5+ years to import American varieties to the EU. Not worth the effort of the expense.
> 
> Regent is attractive though because it gives you, as a winemaker, enough to work with and still make a structured dry red wine. With many hybrids, there's no tannins, minimal Brix levels, and low-medium color extraction. Regent gives you plenty of resources due to all the vinifera heritage, you as a winemaker need to tone it down and adjust it to your liking. I would blame poorly made Regents on the winemaker, not the grapes or even your palate. You just need to know some tricks to minimize tannins.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this informative reply!
I'm not that much interested in cold hardiness, rather in disease hardiness, as the climate in my region is really humid and fungal diseases give me a hard time. I do have some Pinot Noirs, they are in their 1st year, so I can't say much about them, but from what I've heard they're really tricky to grow and tend to lots of diseases.

What I'm searching for, is a variety that makes great wine and still doesn't need my attention all the time - That can be left alone for a few weeks without dying (I did that last year: Left my vines alone for 2 weeks without spraying, they all lost their leaves completely from powdery mildew).

Don't remind me of Marechall Foch . I really had some bad experiences with that (reminded me of vegetable juice :<) But it really seems that european winemakers don't have a clue how to handle the hybrid grapes!

I've already thought about Chambourcin, but I never had the chance to try one, so I'm not quite sure, what awaits me there. 

But there's a new Austrian hybrid that I'd like to try: Rathay. It is very unpopular amongst the Austrian winemakers and even in Austria it is hard to find, but I have had 2 wines made from it and both of them were good, which is exceptional, compared to the rest of my hybrid-experiences.

Of course I wouldn't import american hybrids "officially". That wouldn't be worth the effort, and I would never ever get the permission to use them commercially. I would rather have a a trip to the USA one day, put a few cuttings in my pocket, bring them back home and plant them in my garden. As long as it isn't Marihuana or something there is no restriction to what I'm allowed to grow in my garden. But if it comes to commercial production European laws get VERY restrictive.

I'm not so sure about the "more options" with whites. I never had a hybrid white that was really bad, but in the end they all tasted the same: Neutral, acidic, a bit like sparkling wine without sparks, with no distinctive aromas, that would last in my memory. I've never tried Seyval Blanc, Vidal Blanc and Edelweiss though. It is very hard to find wine made from hybrid grapes in Europe!



manvsvine said:


> Hybrids are banned in France and some other eu countries for commercial production and there are import restrictions against them in some places so interspecific hybrids might be challenging to find.
> 
> I'd try to find some of the Austrian German and Swiss bread early ripening vinifera varieties , these are pure vinifera crosses but bread for colder climates.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the hints! As mentioned before: I am more interested in disease hardiness than in cold hardiness. The winter temperatures can go low where I live but never ever down to american winters!
I live in Austria (What a coincidence!) and of course I do know Zweigelt. I don't appreciate it much though, for several reasons:
As you already said: First, it's the most planted red. You will find it everywhere, in every supermarket, on every wine list, and I just grew tired of it. Second: I don't live in the best area for Zweigelt. It delivers really good qualities in the north-east of the country, but I've never had a good Zweigelt from my region!
Bacchus, Ortega and Siegerrebe might be too early for my region. The region is good for Gewurztraminer, Pinot Blanc and Welschriesling (local white variety). Sauvignon Blanc should also do well here - climate-wise, but not soil-wise (The soil is very heavy, very clayey and contains no limestone at all)!


----------



## manvsvine (May 30, 2013)

If you really need hybrids , I would contact vine nurseries in the UK 
Given the wet climate , disease and fungus resistance are sought after characteristics.

Not sure how a grape could be too early , you just make wine in September instead of October . Baccus and Ortega are grown in England and Vancouver island and show good mildew resistance so I wouldn't rule them out , might be worth a few test vines to see how they do.


----------



## ohbeary (May 30, 2013)

Add lots of building rubble to open the soil and add lime(from the mortar), Muller Thurgau for a decent white or Black Hamburg for red.


----------



## BobF (May 30, 2013)

I've had a couple of VERY good Chambourcin wines. They are being grown successfully in zone 6, not sure about the limits.


----------



## AKsarben (May 30, 2013)

*Chambourcin*



NashChic said:


> I'm curious about chambourcin as well. I plan to plant a few grapes next spring & it seems it's suitable for the area. It's pretty much at the top of my list right now, but I haven't found much about the wine it produces or the characteristics to expect from actual growers of chambourcin.



I work for Fenn Valley Vineyards as an Associate Winemaker, and we grow Chambourcin grapes here at the winery. Each year we make a "Nouveau" from Chambourcin, 100%. Sells pretty fast and sometimes we keep a bit back and sell as a varietal Chambourcin. www.fennvalley.com is our website. It is the only grape that is still grown in France (to the best of my recollection) that is a hybrid. It is a pretty late ripening grape, about the last we harvest. Makes excellent blend in Lake Shore Red and some others as well. Very solid grape and has great disease resistance. 

Of the new hybrids, Traminette ( a Gewürztraminer hybrid from NY) is about as good as it gets. Has high sugar brix at ripening- 22-24 very low pH and decent acid at 0.800 or so, and drops nicely during cold stabilization. You can make a dry, semi-dry or sweet Traminette and it lacks the bitterness you often find with Gewürztraminer.


----------



## bellmtbbq (May 30, 2013)

Sorry, but what country do you live in? That could help us out climate wise.


----------



## Chunkiemonkey (May 30, 2013)

Try the white variety Blanc Du Bois, and the red variety Norton (also called Cynthiana). Both varieties make a wine comparable to European varieties. I have even heard some people call norton the Cabernet of the Ozarks! As far as your powdery Mildew problem, these two varieties are tolerant but, there are some good products that will control the disease with regular sprays. A quick look online for scholarly publications should give you some good answers. Don't worry too much about your soil, with the right adjustments grapes will thrive in high clay and high iron soils.


----------



## bonnie49 (May 31, 2013)

*hybrid*

Norton(Cynthiana) nuff said


----------



## bellmtbbq (May 31, 2013)

Norton is a pretty bad variety in my opinion, but I think opinions are different as its a love-hate variety


----------



## JohnT (May 31, 2013)

BobF said:


> I've had a couple of VERY good Chambourcin wines. They are being grown successfully in zone 6, not sure about the limits.


 
I have tasted a number of Chamborcins from the finger lakes region of NY state. I found that this can be very tempermental. Some turn out great and were more than worthy of a purchase, while others have seemed quite bad indeed.

I am not sure if this particular grape has very special needs.

johnT.


----------



## JohnT (May 31, 2013)

bellmtbbq said:


> Norton is a pretty bad variety in my opinion, but I think opinions are different as its a love-hate variety


 

Again, much like Chamborcin, Norton seems to me to be "Hit or miss". I have had some that was off the hook good, while others were equally bad. 

One thing I know about this grape is that it is not one for a quick turn around, requiring 5 or 6 years to mature. I currently have a Chrysalis in my cellar. This wine has enjoyed a growing reputation over the last several years. I am just waiting for the proper age to open it. 

As far a cold climate and desease resistance, I believe that this vine more than excell in both areas. 

We need to get some of the winemakers in Missouri (Norton Central) to chime in here.


----------



## bchilders (May 31, 2013)

I have tasted some good and not so good Chamborcin. I have had some great Seyval Blanc, Traminette, and Vidal Blanc. That said, I planted Chamborcin, Boco, and Seibel 10878 and the last two are know to blend well with Chamborcin. I just recently came across a local bottle of Boco from NC but have not tried it yet. I will keep you posted on that one. 

I especially love Traminette and I think it will do well in your area. Here is a fact sheet on it: http://fls.cals.cornell.edu/OCRPDF/149.pdf


Each grape has its own strengths and weaknesses and depending on conditions may not always stand on its own so blending might be the better option.


----------



## BobF (May 31, 2013)

Norton is a high acid, high pH grape that has it's own process for vinification. Done properly it makes excellent wine and a truly outstanding Port.


----------



## JohnT (May 31, 2013)

BobF said:


> Norton is a high acid, high pH grape that has it's own process for vinification. Done properly it makes excellent wine and a truly outstanding Port.


 

Don't you mean high acid, low PH?


----------



## bonnie49 (May 31, 2013)

*norton*

It slipped my mind completely that Norton is an American variety. it has non of the typical american Grapey taste, resemblinga Cab in finished wine. Do a Mal.


----------



## BobF (May 31, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Don't you mean high acid, low PH?



The high acid/high pH combination is what makes it challenging. High malic and potassium ...


http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/cultivars/Cynthiana.pdf

Wine Quality and Characteristics: Produces a medium to full bodied dry red wine,
with some fruity overtones. Main (6) reported that it tends to be high in titratable acidity
(up to 15 g/liter); malate (up to 6 g/liter); and potassium (up to 6 g/liter); and has a high
pH (> 3.5). Soluble solids can run somewhat high around 24°-26° Brix. He noted that it
often has poor color in warm years along with aggressive seed tannin, small clusters,
small berry size and low juice yields. Despite these features, and with proper
management, Main confirms that an excellent wine can be made from ‘Cynthiana’
grapes. He said the primary focus of ‘Cynthiana’ wine production is to keep pH below
3.6 and improve wine structure.


----------



## AKsarben (May 31, 2013)

Don't discount Frontenac. I have tasted some excellent wines made from it. NOTE: When Frontenac sets fruit it also sets a secondary cluster later on and if you don't pay attention, it looks all the while like the primary at harvest with color, except it is very high acid and lacking. SOLUTION: During verasion go through and drop all the "Christmas aka secondary) clusters on the ground It is at that point that you will know what the secondary looks like for sure. Primary will begin to color up and the secondary will still be green. This allows the plant to put more energy into the Primary for ripening and it then does not have an over-abundance of acid.
VERY winter hardy as well.


----------



## BobF (May 31, 2013)

Vern - I've thought off and on about Frontenac. How does it do with warmer weather? I'm in southcentral MO; 6A I believe is a most recent zone.

It gets very warm & dry here during the summer.


----------



## GreginND (May 31, 2013)

In my opinion frontenac is an ok grape. It is high in acid and lower sugar and is harder to balance. It can have some of that hybrid greenness if it is not done properly. It does well as a sweeter red or as a rose. For my money I would look at the most recent red hybrid varieties: Marquette and Petite Pearl. They are far above Frontenac in terms of wine quality.


----------



## AKsarben (May 31, 2013)

It will do fine there. They also grow in back in Nebraska, where I'm from, and it gets really hot there in the summer. Thing is, if you keep it watered enough to sustain good growth up until around the 2nd week of July maybe a bit longer, and then lay off the irrigation, it allows the vine to slow down and start the whole process of getting ready for winter. Just because it is a cold hardy variety does not mean it can't be grown where it is much warmer, as you are, it just means it is going to be riper sooner. Your climate for humidity is one factor to keep in mind. More humid means keeping up with the sprays and that would factor for any grape, not just Frontenac. Also how often you have late spring frosts, and it and Foch have a tendency to break bud a bit earlier. Otherwise, you will get your Frontenac harvest and wine going while the rest of us are thinking about when it's time to pick.


----------



## BobF (May 31, 2013)

Greg - I've thought off and on about Marquette. How does it do with warmer weather? I'm in southcentral MO; 6A I believe is a most recent zone.

It gets very warm & dry here during the summer.


----------



## BobF (May 31, 2013)

Thanks Vern.


----------



## GreginND (May 31, 2013)

Yes, I think Vern has the right information. The "cold hardy" vines should do fine in warmer climates. The issues are the other disease problems.


----------



## winemaker81 (Jun 2, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Why not have your soil make the call? Have it tested and seek a recomendation on what will grow best in it.


This was my first thought. Soil and climate are the determining factors of what variety is "best".

Funny, I've been to a lot of wineries throughout North Carolina and Virginia. A lot push over priced cabernet and merlot.... while their chambourcin is a far better wine. Oh, well, at least it keeps the price of chambourcin down ...


----------



## blumentopferde (Jun 2, 2013)

Wow, this thread has become really big!
Thanks for all your replies!



manvsvine said:


> If you really need hybrids , I would contact vine nurseries in the UK
> Given the wet climate , disease and fungus resistance are sought after characteristics.
> 
> Not sure how a grape could be too early , you just make wine in September instead of October . Baccus and Ortega are grown in England and Vancouver island and show good mildew resistance so I wouldn't rule them out , might be worth a few test vines to see how they do.



I'm not sure about that! I had a discussion about grape varieties with a professional winemaker a few days ago: He said - even though he produced excellent Pintot Noir - that he wouldn't plant this variety again, as it matures too early and gets too high in alcohol. I should have asked why he didn't just harvest them earlier, but I didn't think about that back then.

But it seems to me that the grapes need to "hang" for a certain amount of time until they reach their full potential...



ohbeary said:


> Add lots of building rubble to open the soil and add lime(from the mortar), Muller Thurgau for a decent white or Black Hamburg for red.



That sounds like a good idea - but without heavy machinery this will be practically impossible. I will add some lime though!



bellmtbbq said:


> Sorry, but what country do you live in? That could help us out climate wise.



As already mentioned: Austria, central Europa



JohnT said:


> Again, much like Chamborcin, Norton seems to me to be "Hit or miss". I have had some that was off the hook good, while others were equally bad.


Based on my experiences this seems to be a problem with most hybrid varieties. I mean: I the few months when I was actively seeking for and trying out wines made from hybrids I drank more bad wine than I ever drank before. And very often I had wines of totally different charcteristics made from the same variety...


----------



## Ebonheart (Oct 22, 2013)

People love Noiret, but I just can't get past the heavy pepper, especially when it gets horseradishy. I've always been a huge fan of Traminette, as well as Vidal Blanc and Baco Noir.


----------

