# Kit Wine Taste



## facn1989

I've heard of the mystical kit wine taste, but only recently started making wine and opened my first bottle from my first batch. It was a WE Vintners Reserve (mid-tier kit) and aged about 6 months. The wine wasn't bad, it's definitely drinkable (specially after decanting for a while), but it definitely has an off-putting smell and taste I don't get from commercial wine. Is this expected will all red kits, no matter how good the kit is?

I'm hoping I don't age my premium kits for two years to be sorely disappointed.

What's your experience?


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## ceeaton

I consider a WE Vintners Reserve one of their lower end kits, with the exception of the Mist series kits (with the Selection series being mid-tier and the Eclipse and specialty kits being the higher end). That being said, it doesn't mean it won't taste good. At six months any red wine, without added sweetener in the process, is probably going to be closer to the rough end of the scale than the better end of the scale. Your idea of two years is a good start to get to where I believe the manufacturer intends the wine to be. Just think about the age of a commercial wine that you normally buy. Most are aged at least a couple of years.

For me the kit taste is what I believe is the concentrated flavor profile from making the kits. It just seems to be a more concentrated sugar that doesn't ferment out. It could be something else, that is just what it tastes like on my palate. Normally the red wines don't seem to have a "nose" to them until they age quite a bit (where as the all grape and juice bucket kits seem to have that from the get-go). I personally am gravitating towards all grape and juice bucket with added grape wines. Just seems like they are drinkable earlier in the process, and I need my fix, so early is good! (Just kidding, I try and age my wines until they are 18 to 24 months old before bottling, unless they are white wines or back sweetened reds).

That being said, I think the kits are the easiest way to source juice from places we normally can't get buckets or fresh grapes. If they come with skins maybe trying an extended maceration (there are a few threads on here with more info about that) will help alleviate any kit taste you can discern in your wines.


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## Doug’s wines

@facn1989 can you describe the aroma? I really don’t like the smell of young kit wine when it’s first opened. Seems like a cross between bread and sulfur which I now call bottle smell based on Tim V’s article below. Maybe it’s just a kit smell. I have been trying bulk aging to see if that gets rid of it, but don’t have any evidence yet. I have found the if I decant the bottle or leave the wine in the glass awhile it dissapears. Here’s the article I mentioned on aromas:

https://winemakermag.com/1454-troubleshooting-part-iii-aroma-wine-kits


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## Ajmassa

Since it fades and disappears after being decanted it’s a great sign that it will also fade after aging. I Have had Same experience on most kits. And so far it has dissipated every time. 
It’s hard to describe. Like a chemical rubbery undertone. I don’t know. It does seem to go away tho


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## salcoco

is it possible you are sensitive to the taste of potassium sorbate? try a kit without using the sorbate and see if taste is similar.


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## ehammonds

Best ways in my opinion to reduce this KT are: fermenting on skins while doing an extended maceration, aging in a barrel, and don’t drink for two years.


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## malfrune

I had the same experience with the first wine kit I made, couldn't figure out why it tasted off. First was some of the off flavor I was getting was CO2, the second was from chilling the wine. I don't know what causes it, pectic enzymes maybe? but if I leave a bottle of wine from the first few batches I made in the fridge it clouds up and it changes the flavor (maybe more CO2 in solution from the cold?). Either way the same bottle served room temp, never chilled and allowed to decant a hour or two is excellent, chilled and poured right after opening is crappy.

Either way I got a all in one wine pump, degass under vacuum and filter 5 micron before bottling and HUGE improvement no more cloudiness if I chill a bottle and no more off flavors. If you don't want to spring for the pump yet he sells a "headspace eliminator" basically a check valve in a bung but you can degas using a cheap hand pump meant for bleeding brakes. Makes a huge difference by itself, I just don't think stirring/whips degas well enough.

The other thing I did was throw out the instructions in the kits. I use the bentonite at the beginning, and the metabisulphite at first racking but throw out the chitosan and sorbate (unless you're gonna back sweeten the sorbate isn't needed) I primary for a week or two, rack to the 6 gallon, add oak, keep applying vacuum every day until it stops off gassing, and forget about it for a few months, then filter and bottle. Have much clearer and better tasting wine even before filtering.


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## colorado_wade

I bottled my first kit, which was an En Primeur Super Tuscan back in January of 2017, and when I tasted it at that time, I figured that it was just a waste of time. It was bottle aged for around 6 months prior to bottling, but it still smelled and tasted like something I would never drink. Finally this last weekend, I decided to open a bottle to see if 15 months of bottle aging helped, and man was I surprised. The smell was phenomenal! My wife and I just looked at each other like "What the...?" We did not expect it to smell sooooo good. Then we tasted it, and we were blown away. We had also opened a $35 bottle of Chataneuf du Pape, that we were having with a cheese platter, and I much preferred the super tuscan to it. I've had very high end super tuscans like Sassicaia and Gaja, and this really wasn't that far off. Where it lacked was on the finish. The finish was a bit shorter than a high end wine, and it still had a hint of K-meta after taste. It was subtle, but it was there. I think after another 9-12 months in bottle, this will be incredible. I guess the lesson is that these kits...at least the high end ones need to age. I had almost completely given up on wine making based on a pre-mature tasting, and now I'm sold again. I have 2 more kits in carboys that have been aging over a year, and didn't think I was going to bottle based on that early tasting, and now I'm excited to bottle them, and see how they develop. 

I agree with malfrune...the all in one wine pump is a must have!!


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## pillswoj

colorado_wade said:


> I bottled my first kit, which was an En Primeur Super Tuscan back in January of 2017, and when I tasted it at that time, I figured that it was just a waste of time. It was bottle aged for around 6 months prior to bottling, but it still smelled and tasted like something I would never drink. Finally this last weekend, I decided to open a bottle to see if 15 months of bottle aging helped, and man was I surprised. The smell was phenomenal! My wife and I just looked at each other like "What the...?" We did not expect it to smell sooooo good. Then we tasted it, and we were blown away. We had also opened a $35 bottle of Chataneuf du Pape, that we were having with a cheese platter, and I much preferred the super tuscan to it. I've had very high end super tuscans like Sassicaia and Gaja, and this really wasn't that far off. Where it lacked was on the finish. The finish was a bit shorter than a high end wine, and it still had a hint of K-meta after taste. It was subtle, but it was there. I think after another 9-12 months in bottle, this will be incredible. I guess the lesson is that these kits...at least the high end ones need to age. I had almost completely given up on wine making based on a pre-mature tasting, and now I'm sold again. I have 2 more kits in carboys that have been aging over a year, and didn't think I was going to bottle based on that early tasting, and now I'm excited to bottle them, and see how they develop.
> 
> I agree with malfrune...the all in one wine pump is a must have!!



I have had many high end kits that need two years to come into there own, when you think about it how many commercial reds have you had that were less then 2 years old and worth drinking? I know I haven't had one and most reds I buy are at least 3 year old.


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## Sunsanvil

We've been having kit wine made for us for about a decade now. Frankly, and in all sincerity, we cannot stomach typical commercial wine anymore (in both taste AND cost). We generally stick to Premium kits, such as Vinco Showcase (formerly known as Sommelier Reserve), Passport, and most recently a WE LE, plus the odd Traditional Vintage level. All aged a _minimum_ of 6 months with most bottles enjoyed between 1 and 3 years of age.

When we go to a restaurant or friends house and have a glass of... pretty much anything up to a Wolfblass Yellow, it just taste watered down and uninteresting to us now. The exception being an obscure red my sister brought back from an Italian organic Agritourismo, which was a religious experience by the way (but thats a separate tale).

All that to say that after 20 kits or so I really dont know what the "mystical kit wine taste" is, other than _maybe_ the taste of a wine rushed to consumption? Any bottle of kit wine sampled before the 6 month mark is likely to disappoint, and if a person cant wait for a year then I'd say they were in the wrong hobby.


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## LouisCKpasteur

I've made nine kits - seven reds and two whites without being able to discern the so called kit taste. I'm not doubting anyone who claims to taste it...it may be that just don't have the best palate. I do agree that aging, especially on the premium kits, is important. I'm also something of a lazy ass which translates into minimal intervention, adherence to the kit instructions, and wine that ages because I'm to lazy to bottle it. I'd venture to say that there is wine being made from kits by all sorts of folks that is qualitatively better than 90 percent or more of the stuff people were drinking hundred years ago. A commercial Stag's Leap district Merlot is not being bottled and drunk five months after dropping the yeast - I just can't fathom why anybody would think a kit should be different - except that maybe the kit makers bear some responsibility "if you're going age your wine for more than month add". This IF implies a choice where there really isn't one. I mean, there is a choice, but really, there isn't.


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## Doug’s wines

I agree that wine is usually better with age, however there are many places around the world where wine is drank and appreciated young. Often referred to as “new wine”. Probably the most famous is Beaujolais a region that I find quite beautiful, but personally can’t stand Beaujolais Nuveau. Funny. I like Moulin a’ Vent Cru / reserve with some age on it, but Nuveau ain’t for me. I do know people who like it though.....


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## facn1989

Thanks @Sunsanvil that's good to hear. I will age my premium kits 2 years before touching them and in the mean time making some low end kits to age about 6 months until I get a full rotation going. For $3/bottle I'm happy with the results, but still feel there's some off smell/taste.


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## pillswoj

Doug’s wines said:


> I agree that wine is usually better with age, however there are many places around the world where wine is drank and appreciated young. Often referred to as “new wine”. Probably the most famous is Beaujolais a region that I find quite beautiful, but personally can’t stand Beaujolais Nuveau. Funny. I like Moulin a’ Vent Cru / reserve with some age on it, but Nuveau ain’t for me. I do know people who like it though.....



Funny, the one time that I had a Beaujolais nouveau it tasted exactly like an unaged kit wine - not something I enjoyed or will ever try again. I wonder what happens if you leave one of those Nouveau's in the cellar for 2-3 years, does it turn into good wine?


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## cmason1957

pillswoj said:


> Funny, the one time that I had a Beaujolais nouveau it tasted exactly like an unaged kit wine - not something I enjoyed or will ever try again. I wonder what happens if you leave one of those Nouveau's in the cellar for 2-3 years, does it turn into good wine?


No it doesn't get better. I did this accidently one time. It was a 2, may 3 year old Beaujolais Nouveau, my wife and I both spit it out, it was terrible. I don't recall if it had gone to vinegar, but it wasn't drinkable. Now a non Nouveau can take a couple of years of age.


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## jsiddall

Here is my recap on this subject after reading dozens of threads on this years ago when I was getting started in kits. My first 3 kits were Cellar Craft Showcase and RJS Winery Series, all reds with skins, so I should have been in for a real treat. Instead, more than 4 years later I still have much of those first 3 batches left. They all taste strange. Early on it was a distinct banana flavor, and kinda musty, some had a candy like flavor. All were unenjoyable, but not in a way I could identify as one specific fault. Regardless, I can immediately pick them out from a lineup of commercial wines, usually by the aroma alone. They improved a lot over they years but none became great.

Since then I have made many other kits and all were at least good, some very good and a couple excellent. Some I cannot distinguish as kits, though most have a mustiness that somewhat masks the true fruit flavor. Most of the time it is subtle and the wine is still good but very few align to the true varietal aromas and flavors of a wine made from grapes. To me this is "kit taste".

For the record I have entirely stopped using sorbate now but I made a number of kits early on that had the sorbate and it didn't seem to have a significant effect on the flavor. Some people claim sorbate adds a candy type flavor, and that might be true. What I will recommend is for dry wines just leave it out. The downsides far outweigh the benefits.

The other thing I recommend, at least if you like oak, is a barrel. It rounds out the flavors and adds some good oak that seems to masks some of the kit flavors. I like oaky reds anyway so for me this always makes kits better.

Finally, let them sit. Kits wines seem to take longer to become nice than grapes wines. Maybe they have further to go, as I find most grape wines taste better at 2 weeks than kits at 2 years! Either way, I have never had a red kit that was very good younger than a year. 2 years is better. Beyond 3 I have not seen much further improvement.

So what went wrong with the first 3 batches? I honestly don't know as those were made at a large FOP. My guess is they were fermented too warm/fast. Maybe they needed more nutrient. I just don't know. Regardless I have largely switched to wine from grapes. In general they just taste better for not a lot more cost. I still make occasional kits when the price is right and the varietal grapes are not readily available.

Hope that helps!


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## Zintrigue

facn1989 said:


> I've heard of the mystical kit wine taste, but only recently started making wine and opened my first bottle from my first batch. It was a WE Vintners Reserve (mid-tier kit) and aged about 6 months. The wine wasn't bad, it's definitely drinkable (specially after decanting for a while), but it definitely has an off-putting smell and taste I don't get from commercial wine. Is this expected will all red kits, no matter how good the kit is?
> 
> I'm hoping I don't age my premium kits for two years to be sorely disappointed.
> 
> What's your experience?



Goodness, now I'm going to be keeping a nose out for this. Honestly I've never noticed such a thing from a new bottle, and I think the most I've paid is $80 for a WE vintners reserve.The kits usually say that the wine is meant to be drank young, and so I do. When I open my bottles after a mere 3 months aging I always get distinct aromas of flowers, leather, fruits, etc. Very pleasant, and honestly I find them comparable to store-bought. I mean, for a $40 kit, a Fontana tweaked down is rather lovely.

I will say that the musty cardboard smell was a problem in my first wine, and it was a result of too much oxygen when degassing (kit says to stir vigorously for a few days. Bad bad bad). But after that hard lesson I've been very careful not to oxygenate.

So I suppose now I'm wondering if, since I haven't noticed a kit taste, either my palate is terribly poor or I'm doing something different than everyone else. Like LouisCK a few posts up, I'm lazy and let my kits sit until they need obvious intervention. Total Wine nirvana over here.


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## Doug’s wines

I’ve done a few tweaked Fontanna’s and they don’t seem to have as bad of an early taste / smell to me for some reason and I’m attributing it to added fresh fruit maybe. It’s still there, just not as strong however every Eclipse or En Primier smells and tastes pretty off to me while young so far. Hoping that ages out as many have suggested it will. Every palate is different and I can only guess that some people smell different things different ways so what’s offensive to one, may not matter to another. Also I smell it in other wine makers kit wines, so I don’t think it’s my specific process, however I’ve yet to do / try one without the additives yet so perhaps I will try that. 

As for Beaujolais Nuveau, no it doesn’t improve with age. The drinking window is 2-6 months and after that it’s a risk to be more likely vinegar than its normal self. Definitely made to be drank young. As @cmason1957 noted, there are Gamay noir Beaujolais that are desinged to age and as I mentioned before, Moulin-a-vent is my personal preference of terroir although there’s a few Brouilly’s that I like too. They are pretty readily available at the wine store and usually fairly inexpensive. I will say that if you ever have a chance to go to the Nuveau release festival in Beaujolais in November, go. It’s one heck of a wine party and a great time to be in a very beautiful area of France! I happened to be there by accident a few years ago and it is on my list to revisit soon.


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## LouisCKpasteur

Just listened to professor (a history of wine as commodity class) read from an 1895 document by an English importer chastising his Australian exporter for the taste of his wine - the faults being inferred did not sound like spoilage - but this English exporter was adamant that the wine needed to be aged at least two years, the implication being that if the Aussies didn't, he'd be importing no more. It was kind of funny. I idly thought maybe this Aussie wine was Lindemann's Bin No. 1 or something.


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## brianpablo

I've had a series of unpleasant aromas and flavors associated with all of the wine kits I've done, and I'm not entirely sure if it's kit taste or something else that I'm doing wrong. The first kit that I can definitely say I didn't screw up was an Eclipse Lodi Old Vine Zin. It overall tastes decent, but still has some quirks that I don't care for, Like all the kits I've done, it smelled absolutely fantastic on the first day, then by the second or third day it's putting off some really nasty aromas. I opened up the fermentation bucket of the Zin to do a gravity sample when a friend happened to be at my house, he asked me "Are you fermenting noni?" in reference to the notoriously stinky fruit that's sometimes described as "cheese fruit" or "vomit fruit." That batch has now been sitting for almost six months and has improved a lot, but it still has what I would describe as a very strong aspartame-like aftertaste. I'd still describe it as respectable table wine that's worth about the $6 a bottle the kit cost (it's on the higher end of things). But it definitely has more off flavors than even cheap commercial wine. I've got a Chardonnay that's clearing right now, it has the exact same off flavors and smells. The kits do have sorbate, though these flavors seem to be appearing very early on the process for sorbate to cause.

Part of the problem is that I'm drinking it too quick. Since I'm more of a homebrewer and relatively new to wine, I haven't adjusted my timeframes and am still drinking things more or less the same way I would with beer. So maybe another year or so will knock off some of those flavors. The other thing is that I live in South America, so I have to haul these things over the Caribbean via a courier service. That means the kits are sitting on a boat that's probably not got much in the way of serious temperature control, and then probably sit in a hot customs warehouse for a while. I can't imagine that's doing good things, and I can't really do anything about it, so if that's the culprit then I'd either have to put up with it or ditch the hobby and stick with beer. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.


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## Zintrigue

Brian, one would think that you're lucky enough to have some good south american vineyards near by. They're really starting to make a statement. Perhaps you can source from someone local?

Either case, the unpleasant aromas shouldn't be happening early on. The smell should be fruity and yeasty like bread. It makes me wonder if perhaps your equipment has been contaminated with something, or maybe your juice goes bad in transport. Does the juice smell like grape juice when you pitch? If the juice smells fine when you open it then I would think it's your equipment and try new buckets and whatnot.

I once contracted bretts in my 1 gallon equipment and it gave everything I put in it a distinct vomit sourness. After much research I discovered that bretts can't be sanitized or bleached or boiled away, it creates a skin-like layer on your surfaces and hides out under there, waiting for optimal temps and moisture (aka your wine) to come out and thrive. Horrid, nasty thing, that bretts. Not bad in beer, some of them use it on purpose, but off putting for wine.

Anyway, I hope you can solve the mystery, that would be very frustrating.


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## jsiddall

Agreed about the regional grapes idea. Definitely try to find some of that!

Regarding smells during ferment most kits seem to get stinky after a few days. Caused by sulfur compounds, and sometimes called rhino farts, this is usually a sign of inadequate nutrient and I usually add a half does of Fermaid K after the first couple of days to reduce this.

If you are getting something that smells more of vomit then there may be something else going on. Sorry, can't help you there.


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## brianpablo

Zintrigue said:


> Brian, one would think that you're lucky enough to have some good south american vineyards near by. They're really starting to make a statement. Perhaps you can source from someone local?
> 
> Either case, the unpleasant aromas shouldn't be happening early on. The smell should be fruity and yeasty like bread. It makes me wonder if perhaps your equipment has been contaminated with something, or maybe your juice goes bad in transport. Does the juice smell like grape juice when you pitch? If the juice smells fine when you open it then I would think it's your equipment and try new buckets and whatnot.
> 
> I once contracted bretts in my 1 gallon equipment and it gave everything I put in it a distinct vomit sourness. After much research I discovered that bretts can't be sanitized or bleached or boiled away, it creates a skin-like layer on your surfaces and hides out under there, waiting for optimal temps and moisture (aka your wine) to come out and thrive. Horrid, nasty thing, that bretts. Not bad in beer, some of them use it on purpose, but off putting for wine.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you can solve the mystery, that would be very frustrating.



Thanks for your reply! Unfortunately I live in Venezuela, which doesn't have a wine industry to speak of or much of a climate for growing grapes. I had the same infection concern when I made my first batches - especially after getting a film yeast growing in secondary on one of them. So I immediately bought a new bottling bucket, but right away had the exact same thing happen - a wonder grape and oak smell for a day or two that was then taken over by the smell I described. At least some of this ages out, and the fact is that wine drinking is not very well developed here and wine is expensive enough that people are always overjoyed with whatever I give them. I've had occasional infection problems with homebrew, but they don't taste or smell like this. I'm honestly not sure which it is, but I do have concerns about these kits receiving a lot heat on the way over. The chardonnay that's clearing now has a very dark color to it, which left me worried about oxidation. And it has exactly the same smell as the rest.


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## Zintrigue

Hm... I really wonder if you have some other piece of equipment that's infecting your batches. Especially with the film on top, that's classic bretts. Maybe your hydrometer or stir spoon or test tube or _something_. According to the google gods, a white wine that's turned brown is indicative of oxidation, which is not very consistent with bretts since it's anaerobic (hence the film across the top.) Gosh you sure have a puzzling mystery here.

If it were me (It was me once or twice...) I would hand scrub everything with sanitizer, and anything I couldn't hand scrub I would toss and replace. Especially the racking equipment - tubing and all. I know bretts spores float about on the breeze, so be extra careful not to expose the must for too long. Like if you place a towel over it like I do, don't lift that sucker unless necessary. And I know that racking tubes tend to hold a lot of moisture, so I always rinse with scalding hot water and then run sanitizer through it before putting it away. Haven't had a return of the bretts yet (fingers crossed). 

And then for the oxidation, do you have a lot of headspace left in your carboy during clearing and aging? If you already know this then please feel free to roll your eyes at me, but at one point I didn't know and wish someone would have pointed out the obvious to me.

Please let us know when you figure out what's going on. It's a cliffhanger, haha


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## brianpablo

Thanks for your interest, Zintrigue! 

So what I can remember is that the first batch I did had these off flavors and smells, and I found a film yeast in secondary. I peeled the stuff off and drank the batch - it wasn't particularly good but I gave a lot away. I bought a new primary fermentation bucket, racking cane and hoses. The following batch was a Malbec, I was worried about get the film yeast again so I dumped a bunch of marbles in secondary. That ended up being a problem because the stuff never fermented below 1.002 or so, (the yeast gets trapped at the bottom and doesn't chew off the last few points) which left it pretty sweet. Same off flavors and aromas (gave that stuff away pretty aggressively because it had a real cough syrup flavor to it). The following batch was the Old Vine Zinfandel - same problem all around, only this time I left enough head space in secondary for its to fully ferment out. Same off flavors! They're easing off a bit, so I'm going to leave them for another six months at least to see what happens. The following batch was the Chardonnay. Even before I opened the bag, it seemed to have a very dark color and a significant amount of sediment. I decided to ferment it on the cool side to see if that could be causing the problem. Within a few days I was back to the familiar smell. I've racked it and left it clearing, though it still a lot more brown than I think anyone would care for in a "white" wine. I've had my far share of infections, but they generally get the same kinds of smells and flavors which are not the ones I'm getting here. I may just sit on the current batches for a while to see if they mellow out. Of course I'd love to hear your professional diagnosis!


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## Zintrigue

I'm faaar from professional, but I do love a good mystery...

My next question is what quality water you're using. A lot of people say that they use bottled, distilled water to make their kits. I use tap water, which is locally sourced from a community well and has its fair share of microbes, according to the reports (my own problems here, hehe).

If you don't mind me asking, why marbles? Are you stirring during primary to introduce oxygen to the must?

When you mentioned cough syrup I poked around on google and found this guy's explanation:
_A cough syrup or medicine-like flavor is usually a result of a high alcohol low acid wine that's been sweetened. I'd think using cherries to sweeten would be that much more risky.

If I were to venture a guess I would guess that you're wine is low in acid. Best advice I would suggest is figure out what your total acid is using an acid titration test kit. Fruit wines are *generally* around .55-.65% in total acid. If you do in fact have a low total acid then adding acid like Tartaric will make it more tart and help take some of that sweet medicine-like edge off.

As always, experiment with a very small sample and scale adjustments up to the whole batch once you've got your additions figured out. Good luck_.

So you taught me something new today. I wonder if perhaps during shipping the acidity of your wines is being cooked out. It might behoove you to bulk order during the colder months for your country and store the excess kits somewhere cool through summer.


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## Jui

facn1989 said:


> I've heard of the mystical kit wine taste, but only recently started making wine and opened my first bottle from my first batch. It was a WE Vintners Reserve (mid-tier kit) and aged about 6 months. The wine wasn't bad, it's definitely drinkable (specially after decanting for a while), but it definitely has an off-putting smell and taste I don't get from commercial wine. Is this expected will all red kits, no matter how good the kit is?
> 
> I'm hoping I don't age my premium kits for two years to be sorely disappointed.
> 
> What's your experience?


Hey there I was wondering the same thing!
I first tasted a Costco Cab Sav and
it was great from our neighbour but when I made it it had a gassy taste since I tried it right away.
Then I made a Cheeky Monkey and
another kit with same result.
I expected when the kit was done
it was drinkable. Man was I wrong!
Still I paid $100.00 bucks Canadian
and can’t drink it??
Rather make a fruit concentrate or
Dragons blood then a kit.
You tried it after six months, I though it would improve by then????

Adrian in Calgary


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## MartyDz

malfrune said:


> I got a all in one wine pump, degass under vacuum and filter 5 micron before bottling and HUGE improvement no more cloudiness if I chill a bottle and no more off flavors. If you don't want to spring for the pump yet he sells a "headspace eliminator" basically a check valve in a bung but you can degas using a cheap hand pump meant for bleeding brakes. Makes a huge difference by itself, I just don't think stirring/whips degas well enough.
> 
> The other thing I did was throw out the instructions in the kits. I use the bentonite at the beginning, and the metabisulphite at first racking but throw out the chitosan and sorbate (unless you're gonna back sweeten the sorbate isn't needed)



Malfrune, I’m probably 15 or so kits into winemaking from kits. Mostly, I’ve focused on the higher end kits (with seeds, skins and stems), but am now experimenting with lower end kits. I currently have a Merlot, Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon steeping in the basement. 

I’ve decided to ditch the plastic carboys and am using glass so I can use the All in One Wine Pump. I’m ordering it now. I really appreciate your completeness, but I have a few questions.

1. You said to throw out the Chitosan and Sorbate, does this apply to Kieselsol also?

2. The All in One video mentioned that racking 5-6 times may be necessary to degass. You mentioned keeping the carboy under vacuum until the wine has stopped outgassing. Do I do both of these or is vacuum enough?

3. The 5 micron filter: How many 6 gallon kits can each filter clarify (wondering if I need to stock up)?

Thanks,

Marty


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## malfrune

MartyDz said:


> Malfrune, I’m probably 15 or so kits into winemaking from kits. Mostly, I’ve focused on the higher end kits (with seeds, skins and stems), but am now experimenting with lower end kits. I currently have a Merlot, Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon steeping in the basement.
> 
> I’ve decided to ditch the plastic carboys and am using glass so I can use the All in One Wine Pump. I’m ordering it now. I really appreciate your completeness, but I have a few questions.
> 
> 1. You said to throw out the Chitosan and Sorbate, does this apply to Kieselsol also?
> 
> 2. The All in One video mentioned that racking 5-6 times may be necessary to degass. You mentioned keeping the carboy under vacuum until the wine has stopped outgassing. Do I do both of these or is vacuum enough?
> 
> 3. The 5 micron filter: How many 6 gallon kits can each filter clarify (wondering if I need to stock up)?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marty



1. Yes, I just let it sit around until it clears, I'm pretty lazy in my wine making a few extra weeks/months/whatever in a carboy isn't going to hurt anything as long as it's sealed. I don't long term bulk age but I haven't found anything bad about letting it sit a few months even if there's some sediment in the bottom. Sorbate isn't needed of fermenting till dry and not back-sweetening. If you do want to bottle earlier the clearing agents might be beneficial, but with a filter, not really needed IMO.

2. The "head space eliminator" will keep it under vacuum, I keep a brake bleeder vacuum pump next to it and just pump it down once a day till it quits bubbling. You'll have to rack eventually but I wouldn't rack multiple times just for the purpose of degassing. The hand pump will put like 20hg/whatever vacuum is measured in on the bottle and that's plenty to degas, it does take days/weeks, but it works really well.

3. Some do multiples with 1 filter and might go through the trouble of washing and saving them, I don't. Amazon has multiple brands and they're all less than $5 a piece when buying the mulitpacks so I just toss em, it ain't worth the headache to save a couple bucks and risk contaminating the next batch.

Also I'm no expert on any of this, this is just what works for me and makes a product I like.


----------



## MartyDz

malfrune said:


> The "head space eliminator" will keep it under vacuum, I keep a brake bleeder vacuum pump next to it and just pump it down once a day till it quits bubbling. You'll have to rack eventually but I wouldn't rack multiple times just for the purpose of degassing. The hand pump will put like 20hg/whatever vacuum is measured in on the bottle and that's plenty to degas, it does take days/weeks, but it works really well.



Malfruse,

You may not be an expert, but you're about to make my life a whole lot easier. Can you post a picture of your Brake Bleeder Pump set-up? Really curious if you've found a way to Degas multiple Carboys at a time or if the Vacuum Pump is attached to a single carboy until degas is complete. I'm really liking this idea. Harbor Freight Tools has a $20 Bleeder Pump that looks perfect for this...

Thanks for the quick reply!


----------



## malfrune

MartyDz said:


> Malfruse,
> 
> You may not be an expert, but you're about to make my life a whole lot easier. Can you post a picture of your Brake Bleeder Pump set-up? Really curious if you've found a way to Degas multiple Carboys at a time or if the Vacuum Pump is attached to a single carboy until degas is complete. I'm really liking this idea. Harbor Freight Tools has a $20 Bleeder Pump that looks perfect for this...
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply!



I don't, it's literally this https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/headspace-eliminator/ on the carboy. and I use https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NP60URE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 style of pump to pump it down. I only drag the all in one out to transfer/rack

I don't degas all at once, I pump it down and let it degas till it equalizes. Yes you can do multiples there's a check valve in the head space eliminator so pump does not need to stay attached. Just pump it down till it bubbles and foams and walk away for a while, just watch the foam don't want oak chips in your check valve. My carboy stays in the kitchen so I just stick the pump on and give it a few squeezes when I walk by. Eventually it'll quit off gassing and stay under vacuum. It's not a fast process but the carboy has to sit there a few weeks anyway so why rush. 

The most complicated thing about the setup is there's a certain stub of hose I use to connect the headspace eliminator to the pump hose, which I believe the eliminator came with it's just a 3/8 or so hose that goes on the check valve that the OD of the vacuum pump hose fits perfect inside to make an adapter. The whole thing is pretty much idiot proof if you have buy of those items.


----------



## MartyDz

Anyone know what the All in One pump CFM and PSI ratings are?


----------



## Rice_Guy

MartyDz said:


> Malfruse,
> 
> - - Really curious if you've found a way to Degas multiple Carboys at a time or if the Vacuum Pump is attached to a single carboy until degas is complete.
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply!


*motorized pumps are easy to get; *
my first "tool" was a vacuum cleaner which could pull 5 inHg (.15 atmosphere) the second was a plastic 12 volt 2 head $10 pump which can be hooked in series to produce 15 inHg (.5 atmosphere) or as a single stage producing 12 inHg with twice the CFM. I have played with an AC pump which was doing up to 20 in Hg (.7 atmosphere)/ 3 cfm. -- --> *BUT ! !* CFM is misleading! since once the vacuum builds up to the rating of the pump, it essentially spins it’s valves and delivers no cfm. The limit of the brake bleeder is that it is a hand pump which needs to be redone several times as CO2 is removed from the wine/ repressurizes the head space

At 20inHg the gas bubbles just pop out instantly! But then I can let the plastic pump run over night and get the same thing. (haven't been motivated to measure the rated CFM) There is no reason not to keep all carboys hooked together in series or parallel with tubing Ts. 1/4 inch water line (PE) will survive 20 in Hg) vinyl tubing survives 15 in Hg.

*one atmosphere* is roughly 29.8 in Hg or 15 psig or 100 kPa,,, *you can't get better than a full atmosphere vacuum*


----------



## Rice_Guy

MartyDz said:


> Anyone know what the All in One pump CFM and PSI ratings are?


It is 22 to 24 inchesHg.


----------



## Brian55

3-12-13 004



__ Brian55
__ Feb 23, 2019






Used to keep them all under vacuum years ago until I realized there isn't any point so long as they're topped up. Eventually switched to silicone stoppers instead of airlocks. https://morewinemaking.com/products/silicone-stopper-breathable-carboy.html


----------



## jbo_c

I guess I’m going to have to stop referring to what I perceive as ‘Kit taste’. For the first time, I had a commercial wine that had the same flavor. - though in this one, I didn’t find it as distracting as I have in my stuff. There was more other flavor to balance it.

The wine was the 2017 Chilean Cabernet from Black Box. We enjoy the Black Box (or Bota Box) wines for every day quaffing. I’d never suggest they’re cream of the crop, but they fit our tastes for an every day glass. So I’ve had lots of them but never picked up that flavor in them before.

Jbo


----------



## Wilhelm

New to this passion and planning my first wine fermentation, plenty of experience brewing beer though. 

Seems there's some differing opinions on this subject matter concerning kit taste. I guess this is expected considering differing palates and sensitivities. I'm planning my first wine to be a white wine like a Riesling (Wine Expert Vintners Reserve Riesling). For the most part I want to do a white wine hoping the turnaround is faster so that I can gain a bit experience before I ferment a red that needs to sit around for two years. Not much to hide behind so any flaws will probably be pretty easy to pick out. Fermentation control and nutrients will be a focus. 

Most people here seem to be aging their Red kit wines for at least a year but I'm wondering how long you age your whites which are generally meant to be drank fresh...? Any experience in this matter? Can they be drank earlier or do they also need some extended periods of time before they taste like a decent wine?


----------



## jgmann67

Wilhelm said:


> New to this passion and planning my first wine fermentation, plenty of experience brewing beer though.
> 
> Seems there's some differing opinions on this subject matter concerning kit taste. I guess this is expected considering differing palates and sensitivities. I'm planning my first wine to be a white wine like a Riesling (Wine Expert Vintners Reserve Riesling). For the most part I want to do a white wine hoping the turnaround is faster so that I can gain a bit experience before I ferment a red that needs to sit around for two years. Not much to hide behind so any flaws will probably be pretty easy to pick out. Fermentation control and nutrients will be a focus.
> 
> Most people here seem to be aging their Red kit wines for at least a year but I'm wondering how long you age your whites which are generally meant to be drank fresh...? Any experience in this matter? Can they be drank earlier or do they also need some extended periods of time before they taste like a decent wine?



Generally - 2 years for Reds; 6-12 months for Whites.


----------



## Wilhelm

Thanks. I'll give it a go. Hopefully I have a some decent wine in the glass at the end. In general the recommendations I see in this forum is for newbies to stick to the instructions. Do you guys always use the yeast that comes with the kit though? I'm personally thinking it could be better to purchase fresh yeast that I know was stored appropriately.


----------



## Johnd

Wilhelm said:


> Thanks. I'll give it a go. Hopefully I have a some decent wine in the glass at the end. In general the recommendations I see in this forum is for newbies to stick to the instructions. Do you guys always use the yeast that comes with the kit though? I'm personally thinking it could be better to purchase fresh yeast that I know was stored appropriately.



There shouldn’t be any “yeast freshness” issues with the kit yeast, but many substitute other yeasts in favor on ones that promote better flavor profiles.


----------



## Wilhelm

I think I will do the same. Can't help but think that the yeast health could have a roll to play in KT. Dried yeast doesn't generally enjoy sitting at room temperature. Many homebrewers have a similar "craft beer" taste due to fermentations that are less than ideal. Will rather spend the extra couple of $ for security. Especially on a white that I'd like to enjoy relatively fresh.


----------



## tjgaul

I've made a few white kits and my (limited) experience has been very mixed. Some of the lower end (10L) kits made good early drinking wine (Moscato & Gewurztraminer), but the kit taste was present for several months. The 2 Rieslings I've made definitely improved significantly at about 1 year. The presence of the kit taste has been highly variable in my batches. In an effort to reduce the KT I've gone to skipping the clearing agents, but then you have to carboy age longer to clear the wine and I still don't know if it makes a difference. I have substituted K1-V1116 for the EC-1118 to try to enhance the floral notes in some whites. Joeswine will often recommend adding a little lemon or grapefruit zest to the primary to brighten the wine.

Good luck.


----------



## Kantuckid

I had great results from the Wild Grapes, Amazon bought Australian Chardonnay kit I made recently. I chose to back sweeten mine slightly with White Grape concentrate. Inexpensive , high quality, Canadian company kit! I am a skilled technical writer and can say the instructions are the best I have seen in any brand wine ingredient kit. They list several other varietals on Amazon which I do plan to try soon.


----------



## kuziwk

tjgaul said:


> I've made a few white kits and my (limited) experience has been very mixed. Some of the lower end (10L) kits made good early drinking wine (Moscato & Gewurztraminer), but the kit taste was present for several months. The 2 Rieslings I've made definitely improved significantly at about 1 year. The presence of the kit taste has been highly variable in my batches. In an effort to reduce the KT I've gone to skipping the clearing agents, but then you have to carboy age longer to clear the wine and I still don't know if it makes a difference. I have substituted K1-V1116 for the EC-1118 to try to enhance the floral notes in some whites. Joeswine will often recommend adding a little lemon or grapefruit zest to the primary to brighten the wine.
> 
> Good luck.


Interesting, I've had nothing but good things to say about the vineco 10l kits. Their whites are spot on...although I didn't care for the Liebraumilch. The red are decent with some tannin and oak and they taste equivuilent to a $15 bottle CAD.


----------



## facn1989

Made the Eclipse New Zealand Sauv Blanc and was already pretty good at 6 months. Having a bottle here and there to see how it progresses. I would say it compares to a $15 - $17 commercial wine, which for a white is pretty good. 

I personally have noticed the "kit wine" taste in reds but doesn't seem to be a problem in whites. Think you should have a nice wine in no time.


----------



## kuziwk

facn1989 said:


> Made the Eclipse New Zealand Sauv Blanc and was already pretty good at 6 months. Having a bottle here and there to see how it progresses. I would say it compares to a $15 - $17 commercial wine, which for a white is pretty good.
> 
> I personally have noticed the "kit wine" taste in reds but doesn't seem to be a problem in whites. Think you should have a nice wine in no time.


The kit tastes fades though in reds most of the time, the only difference i can really tell with commerical wines is that they are sometimes more tannic or structured. I've heard of several larger wineries dumping tannins into their wines though to cover up grapes that just were not that great or hide other flaws...who knows though. I find alot of kits lack tannin...likely so they can be consumed quicker.


----------



## mainshipfred

By far I'm no expert and don't do kits but it appears whites don't seem to have the same issue as reds. My thought has always been the level of Malic Acid in red wine kits since they can't go through MLF. With the exception of a few, white wines do not go through MLF and the Malic level is acceptable.


----------



## kuziwk

mainshipfred said:


> By far I'm no expert and don't do kits but it appears whites don't seem to have the same issue as reds. My thought has always been the level of Malic Acid in red wine kits since they can't go through MLF. With the exception of a few, white wines do not go through MLF and the Malic level is acceptable.


I always thought they added lactic acid depending on the style of red wine. In either case MLF also creates histamine in the wine which otherwise causes red wine headaches no MLF=no wine headaches...just alcohol headaches if you drink too much and not enough water lol.


----------



## jsbeckton

mainshipfred said:


> My thought has always been the level of Malic Acid in red wine kits since they can't go through MLF.



Interesting thought. Anybody ever do a chromatograph on a finished kit wine just for the hall of it to see?

I would, but I’m just too lazy [emoji41]


----------



## Johnd

jsbeckton said:


> Interesting thought. Anybody ever do a chromatograph on a finished kit wine just for the hall of it to see?
> 
> I would, but I’m just too lazy [emoji41]



Yep, been done. https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/southern-crush-day.55072/page-3

Post # 57, Bravado kit to the right.


----------



## pillswoj

kuziwk said:


> I always thought they added lactic acid depending on the style of red wine. In either case MLF also creates histamine in the wine which otherwise causes red wine headaches no MLF=no wine headaches...just alcohol headaches if you drink too much and not enough water lol.



Really? MLF creates histamines? I had not heard that before but it would explain why several family members can not drink commercial wines (1 glass = severe headache) but can drink my kit wines. Do you have a source for this information?


----------



## kuziwk

pillswoj said:


> Really? MLF creates histamines? I had not heard that before but it would explain why several family members can not drink commercial wines (1 glass = severe headache) but can drink my kit wines. Do you have a source for this information?



Not sure how legimate this website is but it makes sense.

http://www.creativeconnoisseur.com/newsletter/files/d4e918486109666039a3550478d57592-124.html
At any rate when I'm camping or in general outside my allergies flare right up to the point of being unbearable with a glass of commercial red...not so with my wine I made. Maybe that's why most drink white in summer and red in winter lol.

My mom claims to get headaches from my wine...it's the power of the mind. I'm also 99% sure Sulphites are not a source of headaches. If that were true whites, which usually contain a bit more would also cause the same headache.


----------



## bstnh1

Vineco, Winexpert, Ken Ridge, Cheeky Monkey, Cellar Craft and a lot more made by the same outfit in St, Catharines, Ontario ..... Global Vintners.


----------



## kuziwk

bstnh1 said:


> Vineco, Winexpert, Ken Ridge, Cheeky Monkey, Cellar Craft and a lot more made by the same outfit in St, Catharines, Ontario ..... Global Vintners.


Ken Ridge is the atmosphere line I believe when they changed their name. I didn't know winexpert was on all that lost aswell.


----------



## pillswoj

Vineco is the main company, it is owned by Andrew Peller Limited which owns many wineries / vineyards in Niagara Ontario and The Okanogan Valley in BC
http://www.andrewpeller.com/Wineco.php


----------



## kuziwk

pillswoj said:


> Vineco is the main company, it is owned by Andrew Peller Limited which owns many wineries / vineyards in Niagara Ontario and The Okanogan Valley in BC
> http://www.andrewpeller.com/Wineco.php



Didn't know that, being the case though they should really be bringing in some kits from the Okanogan. Im usually there twice a year visiting my parents and I have not worked myself up to asking wineries to buy grapes, lol. Not to mention the massive amount of extra work involved when making from fresh grapes...it's not something that interests me at this point in my life. RJS even released a limited edition kit from that region...it's aging right now


----------



## jsbeckton

kuziwk said:


> Not to mention the massive amount of extra work involved when making from fresh grapes...it's not something that interests me at this point in my life.



It’s not really massive...and give it some time [emoji38]


----------



## kuziwk

jsbeckton said:


> It’s not really massive...and give it some time [emoji38]


Yeah but I would also need a destemmer and crusher and a wine press...probably $1000 right there. It's a retirement hobby lol.


----------



## jsbeckton

kuziwk said:


> Yeah but I would also need a destemmer and crusher and a wine press...probably $1000 right there. It's a retirement hobby lol.



Keep your eye on Craigslist or similar sites, you might be surprised. I bought a crusher/destemmer for $300 and a press for $90 last year. You can also easily get away with a “butt press” for just a few bucks so the crusher destemmer is higher priority although there are alternatives there as well.

3 years ago I planned to do just a few kits a year. Now I have ~500 bottles of wine in a temperature controlled basement cellar and all the bells and whistles to make wine. It creeps up on you!


----------



## kuziwk

jsbeckton said:


> Keep your eye on Craigslist or similar sites, you might be surprised. I bought a crusher/destemmer for $300 and a press for $90 last year. You can also easily get away with a “butt press” for just a few bucks so the crusher destemmer is higher priority although there are alternatives there as well.
> 
> 3 years ago I planned to do just a few kits a year. Now I have ~500 bottles of wine in a temperature controlled basement cellar and all the bells and whistles to make wine. It creeps up on you!



I have over 500 bottles all from kits aswell so I would agree


----------



## mainshipfred

I can't argue grapes are more work ( and maybe not just a little more) plus the additional equipment both crush, testing and chemicals add to the cost. But I have to say the extra work part is what I enjoy most. I can run the numbers just fine but I'm still not the best with the artistic part of knowing what and how much acid, tannin, oak, etc. to add to better benefit the wine.


----------



## jbo_c

Most people seem to agree that this (issue) of kit taste is generally restricted to reds. I’ve personally never picked it up in a white at all. Even the low end ones.

Jbo


----------



## Brettanomyces

I've searched around a bit, but I can't seem to find a clear answer. Just what does this "kit taste" taste like? How would you describe it?


----------



## kuziwk

Brettanomyces said:


> I've searched around a bit, but I can't seem to find a clear answer. Just what does this "kit taste" taste like? How would you describe it?


I would personally describe it as a candy type flavor, but without the sweetness...maybe like cough syrup a bit. My Rosso Fortisimo had this, but it aged out within a year and now it's tasting amazing. I should mention that I don't use sorbate. The other thing I noticed about kits also is there is little aroma until it has a chance to come together. The cheaper kits always seem to have less aroma also. It seems to be certain grapes though not specific with one kit manufacturer. All the showcase kits for example don't have his flavor it was just the one Rosso Fortisimo.


----------



## Brettanomyces

I'm trying to imagine this in terms of wine. So, a candy like a Jolly Rancher, or a Twizzlers, or something? Surely it can't be like a Snickers bar, or one of those crazy sour candies.


----------



## mainshipfred

Brettanomyces said:


> I'm trying to imagine this in terms of wine. So, a candy like a Jolly Rancher, or a Twizzlers, or something? Surely it can't be like a Snickers bar, or one of those crazy sour candies.



You know what makes those crazy sour candies taste like that don't you, malic acid.


----------



## Brettanomyces

mainshipfred said:


> You know what makes those crazy sour candies taste like that don't you, malic acid.



 I had no idea.


----------



## kuziwk

Brettanomyces said:


> I'm trying to imagine this in terms of wine. So, a candy like a Jolly Rancher, or a Twizzlers, or something? Surely it can't be like a Snickers bar, or one of those crazy sour candies.


Jolly rancher seems accurate, who knows though I haven't really tasted any young commercial wine...maybe it has a similar taste? Like I said I've only noticed it on a few different types of kits...while the other kits from the same line when green just taste young without the Jolly rancher.


----------



## ras2018

I feel like a lot of people describe the flavor as “bubble gum”-y


----------



## Johnd

There have been lots of threads over the years on WMT that deal with the issue of "kit taste", can't say that (collectively) we've ever come up with a firm answer to the question of the origin of the flavor, and some folks don't even taste it. The general feeling that I've gleaned from participating in and reading others posts on the topic, is that time generally aids in the dissipation / lessening of the taste. If you are one who is sensitive to the taste, at least take heart that time may be your friend.


----------



## Brettanomyces

What happens with ML bacteria after the MLF process? Do they stick around, or do they die or get removed somehow? Is it possible that adding a commercial red (one that's undergone MLF) to a batch to top it up, then adding sorbate to stabilize (per kit instructions), leads to a "geranium" type taste that gets interpreted as kit taste?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but being new to winemaking, I don't really know anything about ML bacteria in a detailed sense.


----------



## cmason1957

Brettanomyces said:


> What happens with ML bacteria after the MLF process? Do they stick around, or do they die or get removed somehow? Is it possible that adding a commercial red (one that's undergone MLF) to a batch to top it up, then adding sorbate to stabilize (per kit instructions), leads to a "geranium" type taste that gets interpreted as kit taste?
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but being new to winemaking, I don't really know anything about ML bacteria in a detailed sense.



My take on this question is, if you top up with wine that may have gone thru MLF (and I assume all commercial red wines have) then no sorbate gets added. And really, if the wine went dry, below 0.998 then there is no need for sorbate and I don't add it.


----------



## Brettanomyces

cmason1957 said:


> My take on this question is, if you top up with wine that may have gone thru MLF (and I assume all commercial red wines have) then no sorbate gets added. And really, if the wine went dry, below 0.998 then there is no need for sorbate and I don't add it.



I get that. I'm not asking whether sorbate should or should not be added, I'm asking if this particular set of circumstances might explain the results (kit taste) people are describing. Two entirely different questions.


----------



## cmason1957

Brettanomyces said:


> I get that. I'm not asking whether sorbate should or should not be added, I'm asking if this particular set of circumstances might explain the results (kit taste) people are describing. Two entirely different questions.



I don't think it does. MLF and sorbate doesn't cause a significant taste issue, but a smell (rotting geraniums) issue. Kit taste is often described as a bubble gum type of taste, I've never eaten a geranium, but I doubt it would taste like that.

My personal opinion is that people know they are kit wines, and have heard there is a kit taste and hence any odd taste issues are attributed to kit taste. It may also be that the kit wines are being consumed so much younger than wines made from grapes. I do know that many kit wines have won many Gold medals at many competitions.


----------



## pillswoj

cmason1957 said:


> I don't think it does. MLF and sorbate doesn't cause a significant taste issue, but a smell (rotting geraniums) issue. Kit taste is often described as a bubble gum type of taste, I've never eaten a geranium, but I doubt it would taste like that.
> 
> My personal opinion is that people know they are kit wines, and have heard there is a kit taste and hence any odd taste issues are attributed to kit taste. It may also be that the kit wines are being consumed so much younger than wines made from grapes. I do know that many kit wines have won many Gold medals at many competitions.



This exactly. I would never buy a wine less then 2 years old and I try not to drink my high end red kits before 2 years either.

I once tried a Beaujolais nouveau, it was terrible to me, if it had been a kit I would have called that kit taste.


----------



## Brettanomyces

cmason1957 said:


> I don't think it does. MLF and sorbate doesn't cause a significant taste issue, but a smell (rotting geraniums) issue. Kit taste is often described as a bubble gum type of taste, I've never eaten a geranium, but I doubt it would taste like that.
> 
> My personal opinion is that people know they are kit wines, and have heard there is a kit taste and hence any odd taste issues are attributed to kit taste. It may also be that the kit wines are being consumed so much younger than wines made from grapes. I do know that many kit wines have won many Gold medals at many competitions.



Thanks. That makes sense. I must have overlooked the MLF+sorbate issue being one of aroma, not taste. Thanks for the correction.

Your idea would jibe with the lack of a fully consistent description of what's going on. I suppose when I try my first kit red, I'll know. Or I won't. That would be even better


----------



## mainshipfred

Brettanomyces said:


> What happens with ML bacteria after the MLF process? Do they stick around, or do they die or get removed somehow? Is it possible that adding a commercial red (one that's undergone MLF) to a batch to top it up, then adding sorbate to stabilize (per kit instructions), leads to a "geranium" type taste that gets interpreted as kit taste?
> 
> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but being new to winemaking, I don't really know anything about ML bacteria in a detailed sense.



I can't really answer your question but a few observations I've often pondered. I've tried twice to have a kit go through MLF, albeit it was when I first started and was using a White Labs liquid MLB, but it never worked. I'm pretty sure I'm correct that all grapes will naturally go through MLF without adding the bacteria, so why does it never happen in kits. When I make white wines I always add Lysozyme to inhibit MLF because I don't want it to take place. It just leaves me to believe the kits manufacturers whether through the processes of juice extraction or some chemical method prevent MLF from happening. Kit and even juice bucket manufacturers secrecy policies has always troubled me. It's like make my way or no way and this to a point hinders our ability to improve our skills. That's why I no longer use kits or buckets. 

Craig, I'm not being argumentative but many of the sponsors in amateur competitions are kit manufacturers and marketing has to play some kind of role. Not that kits don't make good wine.


----------



## cmason1957

mainshipfred said:


> I can't really answer your question but a few observations I've often pondered. I've tried twice to have a kit go through MLF, albeit it was when I first started and was using a White Labs liquid MLB, but it never worked. I'm pretty sure I'm correct that all grapes will naturally go through MLF without adding the bacteria, so why does it never happen in kits. When I make white wines I always add Lysozyme to inhibit MLF because I don't want it to take place. It just leaves me to believe the kits manufacturers whether through the processes of juice extraction or some chemical method prevent MLF from happening. Kit and even juice bucket manufacturers secrecy policies has always troubled me. It's like make my way or no way and this to a point hinders our ability to improve our skills. That's why I no longer use kits or buckets.
> 
> Craig, I'm not being argumentative but many of the sponsors in amateur competitions are kit manufacturers and marketing has to play some kind of role. Not that kits don't make good wine.



No offense taken, I appreciate what you are saying about sponsors being kit manufacturers. I was thinking primarily about the wine competition or wine club used to run. Kit wines often did well and the judges never knew if a wine was a kit or from grapes.

I think kit wines don't go through mlf due to the type of malic acid added. Some man made malic acid can't be consumed by malic bacteria. Also, not all grapes will go through Mlf, if not inhibited. Also, I think kit manufacturers do add lots of SO2 or some other chemical to inhibit the juice from fermenting wild yeast (perhaps even heating it, as you say they are pretty tight lipped).


----------



## 1d10t

pillswoj said:


> Really? MLF creates histamines? I had not heard that before but it would explain why several family members can not drink commercial wines (1 glass = severe headache) but can drink my kit wines. Do you have a source for this information?


http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages/general/articles/histamine.htm

The significance of histamine in wine

Histamine, when administered intravenously, can briefly cause vasoactive symptoms such as facial flushing and mild headaches, and asthma. These symptoms can occur at a concentration in blood of 0.1mg, but when ingested with food, the effect of histamine is considerably reduced.

On ingestion, histamine is readily metabolised by the enzymes in the gastrointestinal tract and liver (Malone and Metcalf 1986). As a result, a significantly decreased concentration is available to circulate in the bloodstream. An adverse reaction generally occurs only when a large amount exceeding the normal dietary intake of histamine is ingested, for example, greater than 25 to 250mg. While these amounts are far in excess of those observed in wine, individuals ‘intolerant’ or ‘sensitive’ to histamine will exhibit an adverse reaction from the ingestion of wine containing a significantly lower concentration of histamine (Wantke et al. 1994, Jarsich and Wantke 1996, Wantke et al. 1996).


----------



## Rocky

ras2018 said:


> I feel like a lot of people describe the flavor as “bubble gum”-y



That probably comes for the Potassium Sorbate. One of the first things I do when I make a kit wine is toss the Sorbate in the trash. I am not concerned about re-fermentation because I ferment all of my wines into the SG 0.990's. The one exception I have is a California Symphony Gewurtztraminer that I just started about two weeks ago. I did use the Sorbate because there was a "reserve" pack with the wine.

To me, kit taste vs. store bought wine is the ABSENCE of sulfite taste resulting in no headaches.


----------



## ras2018

Rocky said:


> That probably comes for the Potassium Sorbate. One of the first things I do when I make a kit wine is toss the Sorbate in the trash.



Same here. Although, even not using sorbate I still feel there is “kit taste”. I would agree though that this is simply a young un-aged wine as I have made plenty of great tasting wine.


----------



## Rocky

I have not used my barrels for quite a while now and I am a little concerned about putting them back into use without some major work on them. But, I have found in the past that aging a kit wine in a barrel for a year or so really improves the product. I am just too old and lazy to do it now.


----------



## jbo_c

Yeah. Not the sorbate. I almost never use it and get that bubble-gum/jolly rancher taste to varying degrees in most Kit reds.

It does seem that some people don’t identify it and, so are equally convinced it doesn’t exist as those of us who do taste it are that it does.

I spent a fair amount of time 20 years ago corresponding with the honorable Tim V. About it and his take is that it may be a byproduct of the concentration or pasteurization step that the yeast are unable or not efficient at metabolizing. - and some people are more sensitive to than others.

The problem with using competitions as a barometer is that most scoring regimens are geared toward lack of fault, not simply identifying a unique unqualified attribute. Using the scoring sheets I’ve seen would still rate even the wines I’ve had with heavy kit taste pretty high. 

The most effective combatant I’ve identified to combat what I personally identify as ‘that taste’ is degassing WAYYYY over what is otherwise suggested. Many people suggest that bulk aging will degas a wine, but in my experience, that’s not the case with carboys. Barrels are another animal since evaporation will pull a small but consistent vacuum as age time goes on. Age alone doesn’t help. I’ve aged kits as long as 5 years and still had ‘that taste’ be so strong that I poured out the whole batch.

Minimally concentrated kits (larger format) also do seem to have less of it, lending credence to Tim’s hypothesis about it being related to the concentration process.

All that said, I have some very pleasant kits and I have high hopes for future batches.

Jbo


----------



## jsiddall

For me I have found a few "tells" for kits.

Candy/bubble gum is one. I don't generally use sorbate so don't have a lot of experience with it, but I have at least one sorbated kit that didn't have a candy-ish taste so I know it doesn't _always_ cause it.

Most kits I have made, especially the reds, have a strange flavor. In most cases I can't identify a kit's varietals so whatever it is it makes kits taste unlike any other wine. They all sorta taste like blends of something I can't put my finger on. Also, some kits have specific strange flavors. For example, I can pick out some Cellar Craft Showcase kits I made 5 years ago from a single whiff because they have a strange aroma. Early on it was kinda like bananas but has evolved into something less describable.

But even more prevalent seems to be a flavor/aroma I can best describe as "musty". I find it in most kits, including whites. It tends to mute the flavors a bit, but I can pick it out even when it is subtle. I suspect this might be a result of the concentration process.

Anyway, I find using grapes, or fresh pressed white grape juice, tastes so much better that I have stopped making kits. YMMV.

Agree with others that barrel aging definitely improves kits significantly. For the record I use high vacuum to degass all my reds so residual CO2 is not an issue.


----------



## bstnh1

I'm sure glad I don't have an uber-sensitive pallet or nose. I can usually smell things that others can't, but I can honestly say I've never detected any unusual odors in a kit wine.


----------



## BABRU

Same here. No off taste or odor in kits I have made however I generally only make the sweet summer fufu kits for the gals and high end seasonal special edition kits for their unique flavors. Mostly I make wine from juice, Chilean in the spring and California juice in the fall. Here I can get 6 gallon juice buckets for just around $50 each so it is not only makes very good wine but much cheaper than the kits. Just opened a spring 2017 vintage Chilean Zinfandel that was fermented dry, oaked in the primary and bottled in June 2018. It is fantastic! I’ll have to order several buckets of that juice again this spring.


----------



## Swedeman

About the mystical wine kit taste; a quote from _Tim Vandergrift:_

"If you read between the lines, an awful lot of commercial wine is made exactly like wine kits, with the same raw materials, and the same techniques. That's why I find it consistently funny when anyone says they don't like 'kit' wine—they're usually already drinking it, but paying way more from a commercial source!"

Full text here: https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bot...o-make-wine-at-home/wine-skins-in-recipe-kits


----------



## Brian55

Swedeman said:


> About the mystical wine kit taste; a quote from _Tim Vandergrift:_
> 
> "If you read between the lines, an awful lot of commercial wine is made exactly like wine kits, with the same raw materials, and the same techniques. That's why I find it consistently funny when anyone says they don't like 'kit' wine—they're usually already drinking it, but paying way more from a commercial source!"
> 
> Full text here: https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bot...o-make-wine-at-home/wine-skins-in-recipe-kits


The last paragraph explains where most of the people making kits fail. I was guilty of this for at least the first three years of this hobby.


----------



## jsbeckton

I’ve followed the last paragraph, as good as I can so far anyways, but I am starting to get the impression that I don’t like most kit wines. For me it’s mostly the WE kits that I’m not really liking as I find them to have a “jammy” finish. I have been much happier with the RJS kits so maybe it’s just something with the WE process.

Note that I’ve never used sorbate but after 40 months I pretty much use my WELodi Cab as top up wine...


----------



## Brian55

The other big fail is not fully degassing. If it's not fully degassed prior to bottling, there's no fixing it, it really won't change much over time and will retain that young jammy flavor for years. In the earlier days, we'd have bottles that we're going on 5 years old that tasted exactly like they did at year one, sure enough, every one of them failed the shake test after uncorking. I now pull a fairly deep vacuum before bulk aging and again just prior to bottling to insure they're fully degassed. 
I too prefer RJS kits, but we've made plenty of respectable WE, CC and Mosti kits as well.


----------



## Ajmassa

Gotta remember too—even if it’s not intentional, Vandergraft has a strong bias and he makes his nut off kit sales. So he can speak truth, but it’s still said in a way to lend to his bias and paint the narrative that kit wine is no different than a lot of commercial wine. 
I have certainly noticed the mysterious “kit taste”. Some more than others. In wines with & without age. But never noticed in cheap commercial Mondavi ever. 

Who knows. Maybe it’s partially psychological. Gotta grab some Mondavi now and run some “tests”!


----------



## jsbeckton

Ajmassa said:


> I have certainly noticed the mysterious “kit taste”. Some more than others. In wines with & without age. But never noticed in cheap commercial Mondavi ever.



This. What I perceive in many kits I’ve never perceived in any commercial wine, ever.

Something unique to the process or maybe I have just lost my mind!


----------



## jsbeckton

Brian55 said:


> The other big fail is not fully degassing. If it's not fully degassed prior to bottling, there's no fixing it, it really won't change much over time and will retain that young jammy flavor for years.



I don’t subscribe to the “shake test” because I get a puff of gas even when shaking water...but my kits have all been bulk aged in carboys for at least a year so I don’t think it’s a degassing issue.


----------



## Brian55

jsbeckton said:


> I don’t subscribe to the “shake test” because I get a puff of gas even when shaking water...but my kits have all been bulk aged in carboys for at least a year so I don’t think it’s a degassing issue.


If that's the case I'd have my water checked. It's more than just a puff, it's pretty obvious when it's not degassed. I've had several wines make it through a year of bulk aging which still weren't fully degassed, which is why I now pull a vacuum prior to bulk. Bulk aging doesn't do much if there's still a lot of gas, just like bottle aging doesn't work in the same scenario. If you're going to continue making wine I highly recommend investing in a vacuum pump.


----------



## jsbeckton

Brian55 said:


> If that's the case I'd have my water checked. It's more than just a puff, it's pretty obvious when it's not degassed. I've had several wines make it through a year of bulk aging which still weren't fully degassed, which is why I now pull a vacuum prior to bulk. Bulk aging doesn't do much if there's still a lot of gas, just like bottle aging doesn't work in the same scenario. If you're going to continue making wine I highly recommend investing in a vacuum pump.



A temperature difference between the wine/water and the air can easily create a pressure difference during shaking. Also, there are other dissolved gases in wine besides CO2. Therefore I personally don’t put any weight into the ‘shake test’ and instead use time and the lack of very tiny bubbles under vacuum be my degassing guide. I use the AIO but the same can be observed with a simple VacuVin.

Also, I bulk age with a breathable silicone stopper rather than a solid stopper so any remaining CO2 can escape.


----------



## Brian55

jsbeckton said:


> A temperature difference between the wine/water and the air can easily create a pressure difference during shaking. Also, there are other dissolved gases in wine besides CO2. Therefore I personally don’t put any weight into the ‘shake test’ and instead use time and the lack of very tiny bubbles under vacuum be my degassing guide. I use the AIO but the same can be observed with a simple VacuVin.
> 
> Also, I bulk age with a breathable silicone stopper rather than a solid stopper so any remaining CO2 can escape.


Like I said, the shake test makes it obvious if there's any significant amount of gas remaining, clearly more than a little burp. Since I've started putting a vacuum on before bulk, and again before bottling, I've yet to experience the ole jammy kit taste in any of my wines. I switched to silicone stoppers a couple years ago as well. Much better than the old solid stoppers.


----------



## jsbeckton

I really don’t notice any CO2 at all when pouring my 40mo Lodi Cab but I’d be pleasantly pleased if the AIO removes the jammy taste from future batches. Only time will tell but I’m hesitant to try WE kits at this point in favor of RJS.


----------



## Brian55

jsbeckton said:


> I really don’t notice any CO2 at all when pouring my 40mo Lodi Cab but I’d be pleasantly pleased if the AIO removes the jammy taste from future batches. Only time will tell but I’m hesitant to try WE kits at this point in favor of RJS.


Not sure how much vacuum the AIO pulls, but vacuum racking definitely helps as well. I pull the carboys down to 20 inches of vacuum after stabilizing, but I will go as deep as 25 prior to bottling if I see any sign of bubbles at 20. 
Another possible cause of "kit taste" I can think of other than not properly aging and/or degassing would be not quite fermenting completely dry. That could certainly leave reds with a bit of a jammy flavor.


----------



## sour_grapes

Brian55 said:


> Not sure how much vacuum the AIO pulls, but vacuum racking definitely helps as well. I pull the carboys down to 20 inches of vacuum after stabilizing, but I will go as deep as 25 prior to bottling if I see any sign of bubbles at 20.




IIRC, the AIO pulls about 25 as well.


----------



## jsbeckton

So, pulled a SLM today that was made before I had the AIO and immediately put the VacuVin on to see if there was any CO2. Nothing. Maybe I’m not describing it correctly but something is just off/missing on the finish especially compared to commercial wine, even cheap commercial wine...

Also, all of my reds have finished about 0.995-0.996 and I measure with a finishing hydrometer so it’s pretty accurate so that isn’t it. I don’t want to be part of the ‘kit taste’ club but to me something is just noticeably different and I wish I could pinpoint it.

Maybe next test to make sure I am not biased is to have my wife give me 4 blind samples of a varietal with just 1 being a kit. I have no doubt I could pick the kit!


----------



## Brian55

jsbeckton said:


> So, pulled a SLM today that was made before I had the AIO and immediately put the VacuVin on to see if there was any CO2. Nothing. Maybe I’m not describing it correctly but something is just off/missing on the finish especially compared to commercial wine, even cheap commercial wine...
> 
> Also, all of my reds have finished about 0.995-0.996 and I measure with a finishing hydrometer so it’s pretty accurate so that isn’t it. I don’t want to be part of the ‘kit taste’ club but to me something is just noticeably different and I wish I could pinpoint it.
> 
> Maybe next test to make sure I am not biased is to have my wife give me 4 blind samples of a varietal with just 1 being a kit. I have no doubt I could pick the kit!


We've done dozens of similar tastings with friends, with consistently similar results. I have no doubt you'll be able to pick out the kit wine, I was able to every time. What you won't expect, is how many moderately priced commercial wines will be rated lower than your measly kit wine in said blind tasting by others. Is it better, worse, or just different? Unless there's an issue in your process, which it sounds like there shouldn't be, your wines will do just fine in a blind tasting.


----------



## Ajmassa

Brian55 said:


> We've done dozens of similar tastings with friends, with consistently similar results. I have no doubt you'll be able to pick out the kit wine, I was able to every time. What you won't expect, is how many moderately priced commercial wines will be rated lower than your measly kit wine in said blind tasting by others. Is it better, worse, or just different? Unless there's an issue in your process, which it sounds like there shouldn't be, your wines will do just fine in a blind tasting.



About a year ago I put this to the test. Had a kit wine that I thought was good but had that taste in the finish. Also had some grape wines I considered much better- albeit younger than the kit. Still young with Fruity flavor but had an overall fullness in the body, the bouquet, and the finish. To me the grape wines were clearly superior. 
Sent them into an amateur winemaker contest— and I’ll be goddamned the kit earned a silver while the others bronze! Didn’t change my mind or anything. But still was very interesting.


----------



## winemanden

One thing you must remember with Kits, they're concentrated. Must need heat to do that. How many of you juice winemakers heat their juice before fermenting it, Nahh, didn't think so.


----------



## Ajmassa

winemanden said:


> One thing you must remember with Kits, they're concentrated. Must need heat to do that. How many of you juice winemakers heat their juice before fermenting it, Nahh, didn't think so.



That was considered. A few posts back @Swedeman posted a link https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bot...o-make-wine-at-home/wine-skins-in-recipe-kits of Tim Vandergrift saying exactly this. And making the point that mass producing commercial wineries (Gallo, Mondavi etc) also concentrate no different than kits. But no perceived kit taste there ever. 
I’m not sure of the exact process the wineries use to store their concentrate before use, but the main difference seems to be kit concentrate also goes through pasteurization.


----------



## jsiddall

I think what Tim is arguing is that some big wineries use some concentrated juices in their wines. I guess it is possible that those wineries make some of their wines entirely from concentrates (which is theoretically comparable to kits), though I really doubt that. Regardless, I never drink those wines so I cannot comment on how much like kits they are.

What I do know is the wines I enjoy are definitely not from big wineries and definitely not from concentrates. In Ontario, VQA wine is not allowed to contain *any* concentrates. The first thing the law talks about, from Regulation 405 under the Act, is:

(a) ...produced by the complete or partial alcoholic fermentation of fresh grapes, juice or grape must and that *does not include grape concentrate*...​


----------



## Gerry Congleton

Interesting discussion. As a newbie, I just finished a 5 gal. wine kit and I don't like the results. The wine seems to have little "body" and is a bit sour. The SV is a little more than 0.990. I'm wondering if I allowed the batch to be exposed to too much air??? And, I assume there is no way to correct these results.


----------



## jsiddall

Gerry Congleton said:


> Interesting discussion. As a newbie, *I just finished*...



I have *never* had a kit wine that tasted good right after making it. However, left for a few years all the red kits I made have definitely improved. Do the same and hopefully it will become something you like eventually.


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## jsbeckton

Gerry Congleton said:


> Interesting discussion. As a newbie, I just finished a 5 gal. wine kit and I don't like the results. The wine seems to have little "body" and is a bit sour. The SV is a little more than 0.990. I'm wondering if I allowed the batch to be exposed to too much air??? And, I assume there is no way to correct these results.



If it’s received too much O2 it tends to get a brownish hue. As was said before it may improve with time, but not if it’s been exposed to too much O2. If it was a cheap kit the lack of body is not surprising. Can try tannins but they will only mask this.

Can’t say that I’ve ever perceived a kit, new or not, as ‘sour’. It may have been infected if you were not careful about sanitation.


----------



## Venatorscribe

Ajmassa said:


> That was considered. A few posts back @Swedeman posted a link https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bot...o-make-wine-at-home/wine-skins-in-recipe-kits of Tim Vandergrift saying exactly this. And making the point that mass producing commercial wineries (Gallo, Mondavi etc) also concentrate no different than kits. But no perceived kit taste there ever.
> I’m not sure of the exact process the wineries use to store their concentrate before use, but the main difference seems to be kit concentrate also goes through pasteurization.



Excellent article - that settles the mind on the question of wine kits.thanks for adding the link.


----------



## mainshipfred

I'm not sure this kit taste thing is ever going to get fully agreed upon. My thoughts on AJ's post about his kit receiving a higher award than his grape wines is who is sponsoring these things. I think you will find the majority of the sponsors are in the kit wine industry. I don't do kits except for an occasional white juice bucket and have nothing against kits but if awards aren't given to the kit wines I would think the sponsors would pull out, it's marketing. Tim Vandergrift is also associated with the kit industry and although I'm sure he is very knowledgeable he has to defend his industry. Personally I don't consider the majority of Gallo, Mondavi and the likes quality wines. I'm sure they make some higher quality wines but not the ones they are referring to in the article, and I like jsiddall don't drink them.

So here is what I have to offer on the kit wine taste: 

I think it is generally agreed upon that most people don't get the kit taste in whites, or at least the majority of the complaints are coming from reds. Set aside the processing of the juice, whites don't generally go through MLF. Reds on the other hand mostly do. Since a kit wine cannot go through MLF what happens to the malic and where if it even exists is the lactic. As I said before aside from the processing of the juice the malic/lactic conversion is the only other variable.


----------



## ceeaton

Having five red kit wines at 36+ months (four of them are 48 months or older), I'd have to say that aging is the best solution to kit wine taste, unless you go to all fresh grape wines, which many here have. I have to admit I haven't started a red or white kit in quite some time, not because I don't like them but because I have more than enough wine to keep me inebriated for the next few years. I think if you are concerned about kit taste in a red wine but still need to make kit wines because of the difficulties in getting fresh red grapes, I'd think about using the extended maceration technique described on other threads. Patience and good corks can also help alleviate the problem. Just my opinion.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> I'm not sure this kit taste thing is ever going to get fully agreed upon.



I am quite sure it never will be!! 



> My thoughts on AJ's post about his kit receiving a higher award than his grape wines is who is sponsoring these things. I think you will find the majority of the sponsors are in the kit wine industry .... but if awards aren't given to the kit wines I would think the sponsors would pull out, it's marketing.



I just want to be clear about what you are proposing. You are speculating that, in a contest, the judges detect a kit taste, and so reckon that a certain wine is made from a kit. They then opt to give the wine with a kit taste high marks, so as to appease/encourage kit manufacturers? Just so I understand, is that a fair summary of your thesis?


----------



## Ajmassa

@mainshipfred The competition was one of the more established events - the 2018 Kansas City Cellarmasters Wine Classic. Sponsored by all the heavy hitters- kit makers included. 
Though I’m not so sure the scoring is biased. It’s still standard UC Davis scoring. The wines were in different categories but that’s just groupings for best in class and really just to be organized. I don’t think they’re handicapping the kits. 
And I’ve heard arguments on the flip side. That kits give unfair advantage in contests and should be kept separate. Who knows. I guess it’s all relative. The kits did score better on average than red vinefera wines. 

Here’s a good article explaining in detail what’s involved in making the kits. (Keep in mind it was written by ‘them’. So ya know, grain of salt & stuff)

https://winemakermag.com/technique/how-wine-kits-are-made


----------



## bstnh1

Gerry Congleton said:


> Interesting discussion. As a newbie, I just finished a 5 gal. wine kit and I don't like the results. The wine seems to have little "body" and is a bit sour. The SV is a little more than 0.990. I'm wondering if I allowed the batch to be exposed to too much air??? And, I assume there is no way to correct these results.


If you "just finished" the kit, you shouldn't expect a great tasting wine. I never consider any of my kits to be drinkable until they've aged at least a year for whites and usually a minimum of 2 years for reds, and often quite a bit longer. Give it 6 months to a year and sample it then. You may be in for a nice surprise.


----------



## bstnh1

Interesting article on how wine kits are made and how wineries use concentrated juice:

https://winemakermag.com/technique/how-wine-kits-are-made


----------



## tjgaul

mainshipfred said:


> So here is what I have to offer on the kit wine taste:
> 
> I think it is generally agreed upon that most people don't get the kit taste in whites, or at least the majority of the complaints are coming from reds. Set aside the processing of the juice, whites don't generally go through MLF. Reds on the other hand mostly do. Since a kit wine cannot go through MLF what happens to the malic and where if it even exists is the lactic. As I said before aside from the processing of the juice the malic/lactic conversion is the only other variable.



Fred, that's funny . . . I only detect the kit taste in whites. The red kits taste young to me early on, but I don't get the peculiar chemical taste that I associate with the white kits. That being said, the red kits get many more additives like tannins and oak which may be covering up the underlying KT. I've given up using the clearing agents and rely on age and continual degassing (AIO pump) to clear the wine and I still get KT in the whites for quite a while. At about a year to 16 months old the KT seems to fade.


----------



## tjgaul

Really enjoyed the article on how wine kits are made. I work for a dairy processing company and there's some overlap between the wine kit process and ours. We both use HTST pasteurization and condensing under vacuum. 

It seems like a lot of the high end winemakers have been moving toward facilities built to take advantage of gravity to minimize the amount of mechanical handling (pumping) of the wine. The kits seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum in this regard. Between the clarifying, pressing, chilling, warming, condensing and re-hydrating that's a lot of roughing up of those poor grapes/juice. I have wonder how much impact that has on the final product that comes out of my home fermenter.


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> I am quite sure it never will be!!
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to be clear about what you are proposing. You are speculating that, in a contest, the judges detect a kit taste, and so reckon that a certain wine is made from a kit. They then opt to give the wine with a kit taste high marks, so as to appease/encourage kit manufacturers? Just so I understand, is that a fair summary of your thesis?



Not exactly, I just can't help but to believe there is not some kind of influence in the decision making. Not saying it's as much the kit taste but perhaps some other indicator. Studies and surveys more often than not lean toward the ones footing the bill or I could be dead wrong.


----------



## Cellar Door

I’ve really enjoyed this thread. I’m a relatively new vintner, exclusivity using kits. I’ve found it difficult to store wine for several years before sampling, but after reading the entries from the experienced wine makers, I’ve committed to some self discipline and plan to wait for at least 18 months on my big reds. I’ve adopted one of the recommendations of “experts” on this forum and I’m bulk storing 11 carboys now; it’s just too easy to open bottles before they’re ready. Another “trick” that I’ve adopted is to bottle several 375ml bottles as “tasters”. Great idea! Thanks to all that contribute to this forum, I’ve really learned a lot.


----------



## kuziwk

winemanden said:


> One thing you must remember with Kits, they're concentrated. Must need heat to do that. How many of you juice winemakers heat their juice before fermenting it, Nahh, didn't think so.


They use an extreme negative pressure tank which lowers the boiling point to about 75 degrees f, not enough to cook or alter the must. It’s the very same reason water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitudes, they use far more pressure though.


----------



## kuziwk

Cellar Door said:


> I’ve really enjoyed this thread. I’m a relatively new vintner, exclusivity using kits. I’ve found it difficult to store wine for several years before sampling, but after reading the entries from the experienced wine makers, I’ve committed to some self discipline and plan to wait for at least 18 months on my big reds. I’ve adopted one of the recommendations of “experts” on this forum and I’m bulk storing 11 carboys now; it’s just too easy to open bottles before they’re ready. Another “trick” that I’ve adopted is to bottle several 375ml bottles as “tasters”. Great idea! Thanks to all that contribute to this forum, I’ve really learned a lot.


I use the ice wine bottles as they already take a standard cork.


----------



## winemanden

kuziwk said:


> They use an extreme negative pressure tank which lowers the boiling point to about 75 degrees f, not enough to cook or alter the must. It’s the very same reason water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitudes, they use far more pressure though.


Thanks for reassuring me, and thanks to bstnh1 for the link showing how it's done. It's a very long time since I made a kit wine. It must be a result of me getting ancient, I forget how much things have progressed. Still able to learn thank God.
Regards to all Den


----------



## tjgaul

Cellar Door said:


> I’ve committed to some self discipline and plan to wait for at least 18 months on my big reds. I’ve adopted one of the recommendations of “experts” on this forum and I’m bulk storing 11 carboys now;


 I've only been at this for 3 years and a big part of maintaining the discipline is having enough drinkable wine on hand to allow you to exhibit the necessary restraint from robbing the cradle. Keeping things in carboys longer is a great deterrent to early consumption.


----------



## Ajmassa

kuziwk said:


> I use the ice wine bottles as they already take a standard cork.



All the 375’s I’ve used take standard corks too. Bordeaux & burgundy. clear & green. 

The only issue I ever had was the burgundy bottles being a hair too short for the corker. But was a simple fix packing the base up 1/2”.


----------



## pproctorga

I’m on my eighth kit and have noticed the taste described here. I’ve been making beer and home grape wine for almost thirty years and am familiar with beer off flavors but this one is new. 

All of my kits so far except one are from Wine Expert Eclipse. They all have that taste, even the Sauvignon Blanc. The SB had it during fermentation but it dropped off quickly. The rest are reds and have it after a year though it does seem to be diminishing. I’m targeting saving the reds for 3 years so I’m hoping they turn out worthwhile. 

What’s interesting is that I have an RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan that has finished fermentation and it does not have that taste. 

I just have to wonder what WE is doing to create this taste? The safe thing for me now is to buy RJS kits until my WE kits hit the 3-year mark in two years and see if theirs work.


----------



## jsbeckton

I also find the RJS kits to be better than the WE Eclipse, though I still feel that it’s not quite like all grape wine. Something a bit off. Sometimes I forget about it but am reminded after having some decent commercial wine.

While I wish you the best of luck with those WE Eclipse kits over time, my early ones are 3.5yrs old at this point and the taste has not faded much. I use my 2016 Lodi Cab as top up wine.


----------



## kuziwk

I just had a bottle of CC carmenere from over 2 years ago...Simply stellar! It’s my favourite right now, it’s comparable in complexity and quality to a $38 CAD bottle of Malbec from Mendoza I had right before. The passport Malbec Syrah blend didn’t have skins but as a result it seems to have aged much quicker in about a year, it’s some amazing tasting wine. When I try a commercial bottle...which is rare; I rarely feel like I’m missing out from my homemade collection.


----------



## jsbeckton

I haven’t tried a CC kit so wonder if they are better than WE and RJS. With labelpeelers and the unmentionable place down south having such good deals on WE and RJS I guess I just stuck with those.

Who has the best deal in CC?


----------



## kuziwk

jsbeckton said:


> I haven’t tried a CC kit so wonder if they are better than WE and RJS. With labelpeelers and the unmentionable place down south having such good deals on WE and RJS I guess I just stuck with those.
> 
> Who has the best deal in CC?



I'm in Canada so I'm not sure if I can help much, I get most of mine through wine kits...which is a franchise. There are a bit cheaper prices that can be found, however winekitz is literally down the road from my office and saves me a ton of time...and diesel lol. I made one RJS international grand cru...it's very fruit forward right now I suspect needs alot more time than the 12L kit would suggest. I haven't ventured out into the high end of RJS though, mostly because feller craft has blown me away and I haven't tried all the high end kits yet.


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## Brian55

jsbeckton said:


> I haven’t tried a CC kit so wonder if they are better than WE and RJS. With labelpeelers and the unmentionable place down south having such good deals on WE and RJS I guess I just stuck with those.
> 
> Who has the best deal in CC?


https://morewinemaking.com/category/cellar-craft-wine-kits.html
Best to wait until they have a promotion. You just missed one. See post #17: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/wine-kits-on-sale.69062/


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## ras2018

I have had CC kits that wowed me and ones that didn’t. I feel the same about all the manufacturers. That being said the last MoreWine sale mentioned above I got $30 off which is probably the best deal I’ve seen them run.


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## kuziwk

ras2018 said:


> I have had CC kits that wowed me and ones that didn’t. I feel the same about all the manufacturers. That being said the last MoreWine sale mentioned above I got $30 off which is probably the best deal I’ve seen them run.


Hmm so far I’ve tried the Cellar craft Carmenere, Rosso fortissimo, California Cab Sauv all of which have been excellent. I also have the Amarone and walla walla Washington aging and they both are tasting excellent so far. I haven’t had a bad one yet....accept the wife doesn’t like the rosso very much, it’s got a bit of funk to it. To me it tastes floral but it has been aging out into complexity over the past year.


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## ras2018

kuziwk said:


> Hmm so far I’ve tried the Cellar craft Carmenere, Rosso fortissimo, California Cab Sauv all of which have been excellent. I also have the Amarone and walla walla Washington aging and they both are tasting excellent so far. I haven’t had a bad one yet....accept the wife doesn’t like the rosso very much, it’s got a bit of funk to it. To me it tastes floral but it has been aging out into complexity over the past year.



The one that comes to mind immediately is the CC Australia Shiraz. That one was about as mundane as they get.


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## Swedeman

pproctorga said:


> They all have that taste, even the Sauvignon Blanc. The SB had it during fermentation but it dropped off quickly.


So you actually spotted the taste during active fermentation. Did you taste the wine base for the SB?


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## pproctorga

Swedeman said:


> So you actually spotted the taste during active fermentation. Did you taste the wine base for the SB?



Yes, during fermentation but it’s gone now on the SB. I didn’t check prefermentation. I’ll be checking two reds next week that were bottled last year.


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## Lwrightjs

Have you guys read this - regarding the metallic kit taste?

https://blog.eckraus.com/are-plastic-fermenters-putting-a-metallic-taste-in-my-wine


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## Boatboy24

Lwrightjs said:


> Have you guys read this - regarding the metallic kit taste?
> 
> https://blog.eckraus.com/are-plastic-fermenters-putting-a-metallic-taste-in-my-wine



Interesting. I've had that in some kits, but am usually racking off the lees by day 7.


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## FunkedOut

That seems like it’s in direct conflict to the extended maceration experiments that have not shown metallic taste.


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## Lwrightjs

I would say that's true, but I only have metallic tastes when I reds without any additions.
EM seems like the yeast might still have something to munch on aside from dead yeast cells?


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## JWT_Can

I have read a lot of the past posts on kit taste. I have a EP super Tuscan and amarone at 18 months old and still have a strong sweet grapey flavor (though it is dry). I was going to put the wine back in carboy and add some finishing tannin and oak cubes to try and balance this overly fruity flavor. Any experience here or words of wisdom? The aroma has improved a lot but I am worried the flavor will never age out...


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## jsbeckton

In my opinion, that sweet grapy flavor never goes away. A kit wine it what it is after 18mo, well IMO anyways. I waited 5 years and they never got any better.


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## JWT_Can

This is what I was worried about. I have about 50 bottles left so was hoping to try to mask it a bit with oak and tannins. The EP kits make for expensive sangria!


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## jsbeckton

I moved to all grape and only wish I had done so sooner. I use my kit wine as top up wine as I can’t really stand it anymore. I tried extended maceration, tannin, different yeasts and barrel aging. None of that really improved the (“high end”) kits that I made, at least not noticeably.


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## mainshipfred

Peoples tastes are definitely different. I don't make them anymore and haven't for the 4 years. To me it wasn't a sweet/grapey taste but something different that I get in every red kit wine I taste, not so much in the whites. I used all my remaining kit wine to top up.

Edit: @jsbeckton We must have posted at the same time. As you can see I used it to top up as well.


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## winemaker81

mainshipfred said:


> To me it wasn't a sweet/grapey taste but something different that I get in every red kit wine I taste, not so much in the whites.


Same here.

I don't top with my older kits. I drink them when I want to remain sober, as I'll drink a lot less of them than a wine I really like.


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## Gilmango

JWT_Can said:


> I have read a lot of the past posts on kit taste. I have a EP super Tuscan and amarone at 18 months old and still have a strong sweet grapey flavor (though it is dry). I was going to put the wine back in carboy and add some finishing tannin and oak cubes to try and balance this overly fruity flavor. Any experience here or words of wisdom? The aroma has improved a lot but I am worried the flavor will never age out...


Damn, that's bad news on the EP Amarone and Super Tuscan. Those were 3 of the first 6 kits I've made (did the Amarone twice). Luckily, I did not taste a strong sweet grape note on those when I put them in secondary, but maybe that was just in comparison to the very first kit I made, an RJS International Cru Nebbiolo, which not only seems to have no especially discernible Nebbiolo flavors, but has a ton of strong sweet grape flavor. I tried knocking that sweetness down with extra oak and tannins, which definitely helped, but did not make it go away (and as the oak and tannin settles back the sweetness is more to the forefront). And that wine finished at 0.992.

Fingers still crossed about the EP kits, which tasted quite a bit better and actually tasted dry (maybe 3-9 weeks of EM helped). I may sneak another taste to reassure myself. The last 2 kits I bout were from Finer Wine Kits which I'm hoping that makes a difference (if it's the pasteurization which brings the kit taste). I did not taste it when i moved the FWK Super Tuscan to secondary, by Barbera is still in primary. I'm hoping Finer Wine Kits is a solution (with no pasteurization, and 100% varietal vs. unknown blend often from unknown location(s)), as I'm a little scared of going all grapes given the extra equipment/space needs and the seasonality.

EDIT - A little scared, I tasted the 3 RJS EP kits, plus the 1 Finer Wines kit that I have bulk aging today. Honestly, they all tasted good to me, I'm not a super taster, but I did not taste the sweetness which was off putting in the RJS Int'l Cru Nebbiolo, my first kit and only one I bottled. I even revisited that wine for comparison sake, only after tasting the bulk aging wines, and the sweetness was there, almost on the middle of tongue on both sides (not where one normally tastes sweet I think, but that is where that first wine just hit differently). Worth noting that the first wine was the only one I used the EC-1118 champage yeast on. All the others I sampled were done with BM4x4. So I came away relieved. I won't get into the RJS EP v. FWK Super Tuscan battle beyond saying that they both tasted very good, with the FWK (younger by 3 weeks) tasted a bit more polished and closer to being ready to bottle but I will likely wait 3-6 months before I do that.


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## winemaker81

I just tasted the new formulation WE Reserve Australian Cabernet Sauvignon kit, which I started exactly 1 year ago today. The wine sat on 2 oz medium toast French cubes for 7 months, bottled in April.

I'm very pleased with it. NO KWT! There's a perceptible fruitiness that blends in nicely with the oak I added.

This wine and a WE Australian Chardonnay were made for my son's wedding reception in October. I'm going to tell him that I'm substituting box wine because this is too good to waste on a bunch of drunks!

Yup. I am going to tell him that. He'll look at me say, "Right, Dad," and roll his eyes.  

He and his fiance will be here for dinner and taste the wine tonight. They will be pleased.


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## Bmd2k1

winemaker81 said:


> I just tasted the new formulation WE Reserve Australian Cabernet Sauvignon kit, which I started exactly 1 year ago today. The wine sat on 2 oz medium toast French cubes for 7 months, bottled in April.
> 
> I'm very pleased with it. NO KWT! There's a perceptible fruitiness that blends in nicely with the oak I added.
> 
> This wine and a WE Australian Chardonnay were made for my son's wedding reception in October. I'm going to tell him that I'm substituting box wine because this is too good to waste on a bunch of drunks!
> 
> Yup. I am going to tell him that. He'll look at me say, "Right, Dad," and roll his eyes.
> 
> He and his fiance will be here for dinner and taste the wine tonight. They will be pleased.


Awesome! Enjoy 

Prost!!!


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## winemaker81

My son & future d-in-l are happy with both the Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay.

My other son noted the Chardonnay has Riesling-like notes -- not exactly apple, but something like that.


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## JWT_Can

jsbeckton said:


> I moved to all grape and only wish I had done so sooner. I use my kit wine as top up wine as I can’t really stand it anymore. I tried extended maceration, tannin, different yeasts and barrel aging. None of that really improved the (“high end”) kits that I made, at least not noticeably.



Your comment got me thinking. I have about 10 bottles of Baco Noir from grapes that were thin and overly tart (but dry and no grapey taste). I used this as a blend at about 3:1 kit:grape wine and the blend tastes really nice! Adds some pleasant acidity and removes the sweet grapey flavor.


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## Venatorscribe

winemaker81 said:


> I just tasted the new formulation WE Reserve Australian Cabernet Sauvignon kit, which I started exactly 1 year ago today. The wine sat on 2 oz medium toast French cubes for 7 months, bottled in April.
> 
> I'm very pleased with it. NO KWT! There's a perceptible fruitiness that blends in nicely with the oak I added.
> 
> This wine and a WE Australian Chardonnay were made for my son's wedding reception in October. I'm going to tell him that I'm substituting box wine because this is too good to waste on a bunch of drunks!
> 
> Yup. I am going to tell him that. He'll look at me say, "Right, Dad," and roll his eyes.
> 
> He and his fiance will be here for dinner and taste the wine tonight. They will be pleased.


Interesting. Based on your comments I've just ordered this kit. Did you make it straight up or pimp it up slightly to enhanced flavours. Cheers


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## Gerry Congleton

I have about 20 bottles left of my last batch of Cabernet Sauvignon that has not improved over the last 7 months. I've given some away to use for cooking, but do not think it has an acceptable taste to drink now (maybe never). Maybe I'll try putting it back in a carboy and try to improve it (with your advice).
Part of what I have read has said that the more expensive kits are more likely to have a much better chance of having a better taste.
Now, I am looking to buy a better wine kit and would like some suggestions. I don't know what price range makes sense, but I located one from Australia that was VERY expensive. Wondering if the cost was increased because it is from Australia??? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Since my botched batch of Cab. Sauvignon, I have been successful with a small batch of Chardonnay and Riesling. The Riesling made fro others. 
Thanks for your ear.


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## winemaker81

Venatorscribe said:


> Interesting. Based on your comments I've just ordered this kit. Did you make it straight up or pimp it up slightly to enhanced flavours.


I aged the Cab for ~6 months on 2 oz French oak medium toast cubes.


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## winemaker81

Gerry Congleton said:


> Now, I am looking to buy a better wine kit and would like some suggestions.


Based upon my preliminary results the WE 10 liter (Reserve) kits come out good. The Cabernet Sauvignon & Chardonnay I made are exactly 1 year old and both are good, and will improve with age.

I have a FWK Barbera going and so far it's looking good, but it's only a month into the process so there will be a LOT of changes (hopefully in a positive direction). However, feedback from others with more time into the FWK indicates they are good, and at a lower price than the WE 10 liter kits.

Regarding unknown brands, I do it like that line from Dilbert -- "Change is good. You go first." I listen to the feedback from the more adventurous folks and go from there.


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## MHSKIBUM

I've been tweaking cheap Costco kits for a couple of years, at first shorting the water (topping to 19 litres rather than 23) and bulk aging at least eight months with very positive results. In the past eight months I've been adding grape skins, either the dry packs or skins and seeds from crushed black table grapes with seeds. 
The crushed table grape skins seem to introduce equal colour and dimension as the dry grape skins for a lot less money. The table grapes seemed to make the wine, though still dry, have a slightly sweeter finish in side by side comparisons.
I held a blind tasting of a kit Merlot, a kit Cab Sauvignon vs two under $20 Ripassos. Nine out of nine tasters (including two people I consider seasoned oenophiles picked my six-month-old kit wines above either of the commercial wines.


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## Khristyjeff

I held a blind tasting of a kit Merlot, a kit Cab Sauvignon vs two under $20 Ripassos. Nine out of nine tasters (including two people I consider seasoned oenophiles picked my six-month-old kit wines above either of the commercial wines.
[/QUOTE]
Congrats on your wine-making success! I'm a big fan of Ripassos so I will probably have to try your tweaks. What price range are the Costco kits you use?


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## MHSKIBUM

I live in Canada so all prices are in $Cdn. I buy 60-bottle kits (50 bottle yield because of shorted water) both the Argentia Ridge and Cellar Master brands from Costco. They sell, respectively, for $104.99 and $99.99 including taxes and shipping to most places.
I wait for a sale when prices drop $20/kit. That happens two or three times a year. A Costco flyer has Cellar Master kits on sale from 10/11/21 to 10/24/21. The expiry dates usually leave 10 months so I stock up.
For red wines, I buy whichever black seeded grapes I can find at a low price. Unfortunately, I don't know the grape types because I buy them at an Asia store that identifies them only as black grapes. The ones in the regular supermarket are usually Thompson but most often seedless. Include the seeds and some stems for their tannin.
Wineries never wash their grapes but because they've been sitting in a store, I do. I buy a pack which is usually around $5-$6 or less when in peak season per 30-bottle batch. I have yet to find an efficient way to crush and not mush them (Voice of experience: do not use a blender). I remove most but not all of the juice for my morning fruit juice.
My first efforts introducing table grape skins in the primary fermenter before adding the yeast and removing them before 2nd fermentation worked above my expectations. However, if you can extend the maceration for 30-40 days before bottling or bulk aging, the result will be amazing. After many attempts to sew a narrow cheesecloth bag to fit through the narrow mouth of my carboy, I broke down and bought a 30-litre Speidel fermenter — a great investment.
I'm investigating buying a Kegerator or putting Speidel in a spare fridge to cold soak kit juice and shorted water on skins for a week prior initiating fermentation. Haven't decided yet whether this will replace 30-day extended maceration post 1st fermentation or be an additional step on its own. Luckily, these kits are cheap enough to experiment.
The toughest part is allowing the wine to age at least a year. Extended maceration according to all venerable sources I've found makes 1-2 years of aging essential to mellow the tannins, BUT at $2 a bottle, it's hard to justify not drinking it young when it still beats anything under $15 at the wine store.
One added note: cheap kits come with cheap corks. If you drink them fast, no problem but if you intend to lay them down in a bottle more than 2 years, high quality corks are a must.


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## Khristyjeff

Thanks for the good information @MHSKIBUM. I'll have to give it a try.


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