# YouTube video called Noble Bible Wine



## harryhebert (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi,
I've only been homewinemaking since August but have made 18 little 1 gallon batches. I 'lurk' at this forum every day and decided to post something. I did a video that you can see at YouTube called 'Noble Bible Wine'. I show that wine was considered such a noble and valuable commodity in the Old Testament that like corn and oil, the wine was to be tithed too. You might find it interesting:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMRVnJ74nuQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMRVnJ74nuQ[/ame]


regards,
harry


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## masta (Dec 13, 2007)

Awesome job Harry and I will be spending some time on your website to read through your articles.


I have struggled some with this topic of drinking and making alcohol so thanks for your insight based on facts written in the Bible.


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## Jack on Rainy (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi Harry (or is it Jimmy? The Utube post comments were made to Jimmy),
I really enjoyed your video! Have thought about the historical context of wine around the world and more particularly in the Judeo/ Christian tradition which is mine. You folks who have studied the history of wine more than I keep delighting me with more and more information. Thanks.
BTW the Old Testament reference to "preparing the wine" meant diluting it with water - perhaps to make the water more potable. That is one tradition I chose to ignore




!


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## harryhebert (Dec 13, 2007)

Thanks Masta and Jack,
Actually the video is taken from my site article by the same name of 'Noble Bible Wine' which has in it all of the specific Bible references used. In the article it was fun to add 'FineVineWines' and 'Tinto TV' as places for people to explore this fascinating hobby.
At my age (69), I limit my drinking to no more often than once every six days, and then less than a quart. I find that drinking equal parts of water at the time lets me awaken the next day refreshed and in a good state of repair. Cheers and thanks for your posts.
harry


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## Angell Wine (Dec 13, 2007)

quick sermon :
The first gift Jesus gave the world (John 2: 1-11) the best wine
The last thing the world gave Jesus (Mark 15: 36) Vinegar or bad wine


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## harryhebert (Dec 14, 2007)

I liked this and will use it somewhere.



Thanks.
harryhebert


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## Tomy (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks Harry, very thoughtfull presentation I enjoyed very much.


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## harryhebert (Dec 15, 2007)

Thank you all,
No one who makes homemade wine should ever be shame faced about it. It is merely the continuation of an old and revered art which was practiced by the notable patriarchs of the Bible. Christian zealots who denounce the practice of this art only display their lack of Bible knowledge. That the substance can be abused is a moot point and the beverage or the making of it should not be slandered. Without wine, Christians cannot observe the Lord's supper except in a counterfeit fashion using merely unfermented grape juice.



There! I've wanted to say that for a long time.




regards,
harry


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## Tomy (Dec 18, 2007)

Harry I cannot find any referance to drinking wine at the last supper. I beleive in Mathew 26:26-29 it says 


"_And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."_" (Matthew 26:26-29).


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## harryhebert (Dec 18, 2007)

Hi Tomy



Thanks for your post. The last Supper was the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called the Passover. (Luke 22:1). This was on the 14th day of Nissan (a time on our Gregorian calendar between March-April). Passover in 2008 will be April 20th. In Israel, grapes are harvested between the months of June-September. The 'fruit of the vine' would have to have been fruit from the prior year's crop. We know that it was cold because Peter warmed himself by a fire in a courtyard. I do not know how they would preserve grape juice in that day other than by making it into wine. The Passover called for the drinking of 4 cups of wine: They represent the four expressions of redemption found in Exodus 6:6-7: bring, deliver, redeem and take. The first cup is called the cup of Sanctification' 2nd the cup of judgment;3rd cup of redemption and 4th cup of acceptance or praise.A review of the sites listed below gives lengthy discourse on all of this along with a number of specific references to wine:<SUP>
Wine or grape juice for the Lord's Supper?
Harvest Dates
Jewish Festival Dates

regards,
harry
P.S. Since the Bible speaks against 'looking upon the wine when it is red' I sometimes drink it through a covered vessel with a straw. That way I don't see it.



</SUP>*Edited by: harryhebert *


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## Tomy (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks Harry, Preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world. This conclusion is indirectly supported by the teachings and example of Jesus.


*Jesus and Wine.* The next logical step was to examine the major wine-related stories or sayings of Jesus since these are commonly used to prove that Christ _made, commended, used and even commanded_ the use of alcoholic wine. In Chapter 5 I went into considerable detail to examine these claims. The conclusion of my analysis is that they are devoid of textual, contextual and historical support.


The "good wine" Jesus _made_ at Cana (John 2:10) was "good" not because of its high alcoholic content, but because it was fresh, unfermented grape juice. This is indicated by external and internal considerations. Externally, contemporary authors, such as Pliny and Plutarch, attest that "good wines" were those which did not intoxicate, having had their alcoholic potency removed. Internally, moral consistency demands that Christ could not have miraculously produced between 120 to 160 gallons of intoxicating wine for the use of men, women and children gathered at the Cana’s wedding feast, without becoming morally responsible for prolonging and increasing their intoxication. Scriptural and moral consistency requires that "the good wine" produced by Christ was fresh, unfermented grape juice. This is supported by the very adjective used to describe it, namely _kalos_, which denotes that which is morally excellent, instead of _agathos_, which means simply good.


The "new wine" Jesus _commended_ through the parable of the new wineskins (Luke 5:37-38; Mark 2:22) was unfermented must, either boiled or filtered, because not even new wineskins could withstand the pressure of the gas produced by fermenting new wine.


The self-description of Jesus as "eating and drinking" (Matt 11:19; Luke 7:34) does _not_ imply that He _used_ alcoholic wine, but rather that He freely associated with people at their meals and elsewhere. The phrase "eating and drinking" was used idiomatically to describe Christ’s social lifestyle.


The "fruit of the vine" Christ _commanded_ to be used as a memorial of His redeeming blood (Matt 26:28-29; Mark 14:24-25) was not fermented wine, which in the Scripture represents human depravity and divine indignation, but pure unfermented grape juice, which is a fitting emblem of Christ’s untainted blood shed for the remission of our sins. This conclusion was established through a study of the language of the Last Supper, the Jewish Passover wine, the Passover law of fermentation, the consistency of the symbol and the survival of the use of unfermented grape juice at the Lord’s Supper. Most telling is the fact that Josephus calls the freshly squeezed grape juice "the fruit of the vine." This establishes unequivocally that the phrase was used to designate the sweet, unfermented juice of the grape. The evidences submitted shows that Jesus abstained from all intoxicating substances and gave no sanction to His followers for using them. I guess we will never know as there is evidence to both sides of the question. Thanks Tomy


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## harryhebert (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks Tomy, 
You stated:
"Preserving grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. It was accomplished by boiling down the juice to a syrup, or by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, or by placing the grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, or by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. The use of such techniques clearly indicates that the means of preserving grape juice without fermentation were known and used in the ancient world."


I guess that I have to ask what evidence we have that the ancients _*knew *_of these simple techniques. Insofar as much time was spent traveling through desserts, etc., Just how could they immerse sealed jars in a pool of cool water? I imagine that the techniques that this statement suggests deals with something which could not be accomplished by a nomadic culture living in tents. Additionally, the word 'wine' is Strong's number 3631 which means 'wine' or 'fermented grape juice' (Websters) which is what Jesus made for the feast which was running out of wine. Yes, He did make such a substance without consulting either of us....regardless of how it might conflict with our theology.






I do not see that you wish to reply to the specific statements of the first url that I gave, but please, lets not quibble. Nevertheless, as you concluded, there are valid arguments on either side of the question. 


Tomy, I really do not wish to clutter this forum up with a debate with you on this issue. I am convinced that the tradition handed down to Jesus regarding the keeping of the Passover mandated the drinking of 4 cups of wine, whereas you surmise that you are convinced otherwise. _Whatever!!_ Peace between us. Eitherviewpoint is right, and to the New Testament Christian it is all symbolism anyway as is baptism. I will always attest that _wine_ produces a greater since of _life_ in the partaker than simple grape juice at room temperature ever could. (The people in Jesus' day did not have an ice-maker like you and I have). 


For instance, even as I type this I am enjoying my second glass of homemade wine using advice given on this forum and in spite of any differences, I like you



.
Grape juice could never do _that_ unaided.



.
regards,
harry*Edited by: harryhebert *


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## trashy (Mar 17, 2008)

Well Harry may want to play peacemaker, but this topic has piqued my interest! I must respond.





As a bit of background info, I was raised in a very conservative (some would say fundamentalist) Christian background. I was taught almost exactly what Tomy just copied-and-pasted about wine in the Bible. (from this web site: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html I have since come to a much different opinion based on a few observations. As it pertains to Jesus, the story of his first miracle absolutely proves that Jesus produced fermented wine. The governor of the feast tells the bridegroom "Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." If the good and worse wines are all unfermented, then this story makes no sense. But it is common still to this day for people to drink the best wines first and save the lesser wines for later. If you have no experience with the effects of inebriation you may easily miss this point. But trust me, no one who has ever drunk wine will miss it. The governor was impressed with the bridegroom because he perceived that he was giving people a pleasant and valuable treat as opposed to pawning off otherwise undrinkable swill on guests who might not be able to tell the difference.


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## harryhebert (Mar 18, 2008)

Thanks Trashy,
Your observation is quite clear. People who have a buzz on become less attentive to taste and more concerned with keeping the buzz going. A wine with a poor taste will serve the purpose and would be the last to be served since the guests no longer are picky about taste. Thanks for the comment.
Harry


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## Travisty (Mar 21, 2008)

In Acts 2:13, in the middle of Pentecost, as the disciples were speaking in tongues, they were accused of being full of new wine (ESV and KJV, NIV simply says they had too much wine). If new wine in the bible was unfermented must, then how could someone be accused of being drunk on it?


Also, we are commanded in Ephesians 5:18 not to be drunk on wine. How is this wine any different than the supposedly non-alcoholic wine of Jesus' first miracle?


Throughout church history, up until the last century or so, alcohol has not been a big issue. Martin Luther's wife was a master beer brewer. John Calvinrequired in his pastoral contract something like 200 gallons of wine per year. The word "bridal" comes from the beer that the men of the church would brew for a bride when she was to be married known as the "bride ale." The first permanent building the pilgrims built after landing in the New World was a brewery. Niether the Bible nor church history condemn the making and the moderate use of alcohol. It wasn't until the late 1800s, I believe, with the rise of feminism and support of liberal Christianity, that the morality of alcohol was brought into question. The women of the day were upset that their husbands were always at the pub and not at home, and liberal Christianity, per definition, went with the parlence of the times rather than Scripture. Hence, Prohibition. I find it interesting that fundamentalist (who are no fun at all by the way



) clung to this thought of alcohol as sin.


Jesus teaches us that it is not what enters a person that defiles him, but what comes out of a person (Mark 7:14-23, Matthew 12:33-37 for example). We humans, as a result of Adam's sin, are naturally sinful and will pervert any and all of God's creation towards sin. God has made all things good (see Genesis 1 and 2 and Acts 10:9-16). It is our sin that uses the good things God has given us and uses them for sin. Think about it. God gave us food, we eat too much and become gluttons. God gave us sex. We pervert it and use it outside of His intentions for it. God gives us a beautiful earth and we use it to our own gain with no thought of proper stewardship. God gives us prosperity (a.k.a. money) and we are greedy. And God gives us alcohol and we get drunk. No my friends, it is not God's creation that is sinful, only our sinful use of those things.


I think the big issue here is where the focus is. Satan has used legalism in our day, much like he did for the Pharisees in Jesus' day. Keep God's people focused on man-made rules that are intended to somehow make us more holy and deserving of God's love. If Satan can keep us focused on that, then he has succesfully kept us from worshipping and loving our lord and saviour and friend Jesus and he has kept us from effectively loving our neighbors and spreading the good news of the Gospel!


And that brings me to where all things should point. To Jesus. Because of our sinful nature, we are separated from God. We were created good, but we believed the lie that we could be like God and we fell into sin. We willingly turn away from Him to follow our own way (Isaiah 53:6, Romans 3:10-18 etc.). Because of this, we justly deserve punishment. Scripture says we deserve eternal death a payment for our willing rebellion (Romans 6:23). But God, in his uncomprehendable mercy, lowered himself and became human. He (Jesus) lived the perfect life we could never live and became the perfect sacrifice for our atonement. His death paid the price we deserve and his rise from the grave demonstrates His victory over Satan, sin, and death! The beauty of the Gospel is that not only did Jesus' death and resurection clean us from sin, but it also imputes to us Jesus' righteousness. Therefore, if we repent of our rebelliousness and trust in Jesus as our only hope, we are able to begin to live lives to the glory of God, which is the source of all true joy. As we grow in the faith we are given, we begin to be able to use God's good creation rightly, which includes making delicious, mouth watering, wines, to the glory of our creator!


Here's a couple links to some really good sermons on alcohol and Christianity if anyone's interested:


Mark Driscoll:
http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/alcohol_driscoll_5pm_south_03_24_02.mp3


Leif Moi (part 1):
http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/alcohol_moi_8pm_03_24_02_part1.mp3
Leif Moi (part 2):
http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/alcohol_moi_8pm_03_24_02_part2.mp3


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## harryhebert (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Travisty,


You certainly did your homework on this. Thank you for your remarks and especially the links that you provided. I will surely check them out.


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