# No Fermentation



## Sweetiepie (Mar 11, 2017)

I am sorry for asking about no fermentation, I know their has been many posts on this already. This is my first attempt and only know what I have read from books and online. But my question is when does one give up and dump it?

Started 3-6-2017
I am making 6 gallons of valiant grape wine?
I did sterilize equipment before I use it each time. 

I used 5 gallons of the juice that I canned from last grape season. 
One gallon water.
PH was 3.6 and since I am new and some sources said that was fine, I left it until I get more experience. 
I added sugar to bring the SG to 1.090 and Brix 22. 
I added a campden tablet for each gallon. 
I put the lid and bubbler on. 

After 24 hours I added yeast nutrient to 104 degrees, 25 ml of water and then a packet of EC-11118 yeast and let it sit for 20 minutes then added about the same amount of must to the water and let it sit for 20 more minutes. . I did that because I read that in a book. It was then 80 degrees. Then put it in the must. Temp of must was 62. I read some where about cold fermentation brings out more flavor. 
I put the lid and bubbler back on. Set it on a heating pad which only kept the must at 64. After 48 hours no fermentation. 

I then read that the temp should be warmer so I put it on top of my radiators and the must has been holding at 72-74 degrees. 

At 72 hours still nothing. I have been stirring every day and checking SG, etc. and the numbers are the same as I started. It tastes like sweetened grape juice with no off tastes. 

So upon further research, I found out that I should not have put a lid on it and so I have it covered with a cheese cloth. I added 3 more tsps of yeast nutrient to the the must and then directly added the yeast to the top of the must. Since I am so confused on what I should do with the yeast, so many contradicting ways. 

It's now 24 hours after the second batch of yeast and 96 hours after the first batch of yeast. 

My question is how long should I wait, should I dump yet more yeast, I only have one more package of that type of yeast, if I do, what method of dispersal do you recommend? When does one give up?

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this thread.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 11, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> I am sorry for asking about no fermentation, I know their has been many posts on this already. This is my first attempt and only know what I have read from books and online. But my question is when does one give up and dump it?
> 
> Started 3-6-2017
> I am making 6 gallons of valiant grape wine?
> ...



Make sure the yeast is not out of date. Will be stamped along the outer edge.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 11, 2017)

Oh, you should notice some activity within the next 24 hr, if yeast is good.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 11, 2017)

This time of year with house temps rising and falling I've had some very long delays in start of fermentation. 3-4 days at times. Keep us posted over the next day or two - and the more consistent the temps the better. Too hot or too cold is not good for ally those little yeast beasties.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 11, 2017)

I like your second method, and I suspect your present situation is fine. I don't know why your first yeast did not take off (perhaps it was the sulfites), but I suspect your second yeast will work. However, it does sometimes take 48 hours before you get any visible activity.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 11, 2017)

Thank you, I just bought the yeast being a newbie. It says 2-2018 and it's been in the frig this last week.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 11, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> Thank you, I just bought the yeast being a newbie. It says 2-2018 and it's been in the frig this last week.



This (cold yeast) could be the problem. I wouldn't go from fridge to must or fridge to heated water. I would let the yeast reach room temps and then pitch.

It's really good if the yeast and the must are within a few degree of each other, when sprinkling on top of must.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 12, 2017)

I think I am finally seeing some activity on the top but the numbers are all the same.

When do I put the lid and bubbler back on?


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## NorCal (Mar 12, 2017)

Below is a cut and paste of the producers instructions on their spec sheet, except I changed the temps to Fahrenheit. The chart shows the highest fermentation activity at 80-84 degrees.


Rehydrate EC-1118 in 5 times its weight of potable water at 104°F. Let stand for at least 20 minutes then gently stir occasionally to break up any clumps. Add to the must.
- THE TOTAL REHYDRATION DURATION SHOULD NEVER EXCEED 45 MINUTES
- AVOID COLD SHOCKING THE YEAST. THE TEMPERATURE DROP BETWEEN THE MUST TO BE INOCULATED AND THE REHYDRATION MEDIUM SHOULD NEVER BE >50°F (if any doubt, please contact your supplier or Lallemand)
- IT IS ESSENTIAL TO REHYDRATE THE YEAST IN A CLEAN CONTAINER.
- INITIAL REHYDRATION IN MUST IS NOT ADVISABLE.


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## meadmaker1 (Mar 12, 2017)

Im no expert but in reading back through your post. I dont beleive you should air lock during the first 24 hrs after adding campdon tabs. Usually a towel or loose lid , adding air lock after adding yeast. 
I beleive to allow gasses to develop from tabs but maybe someone can shed light on this.


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## NorCal (Mar 12, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> I think I am finally seeing some activity on the top but the numbers are all the same.
> 
> When do I put the lid and bubbler back on?



If I have a fast fermentation, I'll let it go dry, then press and put airlock for mlf. My whites/rose when I'm looking for a slower, colder fermentation, I'll put under airlock when the brix drop to 5 or so. My thinking is that there is less CO2 being produced at that time and the whites are more prone to oxidation.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 12, 2017)

Gassing off and oxygen intake are significant factors and could inhibit the yeast but unless the yeast is totally killed off by a hostile environment it should kick in - just make take a little longer. AND of course watch the temperature fluctuations. Warm and then Cool cycling of the must isn't conducive to reproduction cycles.

Didn't see any comments about stirring the must at least once a day. Have you been doing that? That helps incorporate oxygen, free excess SO2 and keep the yeast from settling out.

If you have warmed up the room to anywhere near the max temps for the yeast you might check the fermentation container temps. The process generates significant heat when going full steam so you don't want to get it overheated either.

But don't go with any mood music - it doesn't seem to help.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 13, 2017)

Thank you all so much, I now have very active fermentation on top of the wine and you are correct it is warming up, it is at 78 now, so I took it off the radiator and it's back on the floor, and I will monitor temp. I really don't have a counter or table to put it on that isn't in full light all day. Just hoping for warmer weather soon. Last night my readings were the same as the beginning but I am hopeful I will see a difference tonight.


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## AZMDTed (Mar 13, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> ..., it is at 78 now, so I took it off the radiator and it's back on the floor, and I will monitor temp.



Just a final thought. If you set the carboy on the floor you may want to raise it up a bit. Either set it on some wood or maybe a folded blanket. If it's a cold floor it will act as a heat sink for the rest of the carboy with 78 degrees near the top and maybe 60 at the bottom. Giving it a little insulation between it and the floor will help.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 13, 2017)

Yup and if you have some cardboard or an old blanket you can wrap that round the bucket to help keep the warmth in. Most yeasts are OK at temps over 65 degrees especially once they are working - as yours clearly is .

Congrats


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## skeenatron (Mar 13, 2017)

How much sulfur do those campden tablets add? I just looked a random brand up and read that one tablet provides 75ppm free SO2 per gallon? Even though that is very dependent on pH, that still seems like a lot. EC1118 has a big time kill factor and will overpower almost any wild yeast you might have in there. I'd personally recommend you try cutting your campden tablet use in half before inoculation to keep your environment from becoming too hostile to your yeast.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 13, 2017)

I did put it on a folded up towel, next to the radiator but not on it and it has stayed at 76. Wrapping it with a towel or blanket is a a good idea. Thank you. 

The campden tablet say they are 57 percent sulfer dioxide. I did use canned juice too so, you are probably right I could of used lots less because most bad stuff should of been killed when I canned it. 

Readings were SG 1.08 and Brix is down to 19.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 13, 2017)

No problem with your use of the campden tabs. The only change I can see is to just cover the bucket with a towel during after adding the campden tabs and that's something not all people do. 

Clearly your fermentation is now working so all is well. 

SG started at 1.090 and is now 1.080? That's good. Just monitor it once a day and stir once a day after your SG check. When it gets to 1.010 you should be ready to rack to a carboy for secondary fermentation.

One more thing is to just keep good notes on this fermentation.


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## skeenatron (Mar 13, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> No problem with your use of the campden tabs. The only change I can see is to just cover the bucket with a towel during after adding the campden tabs and that's something not all people do.
> 
> Clearly your fermentation is now working so all is well.
> 
> ...



I don't use campden tablets but based on what I've read about them, it sounds like the molecular sulfur levels of his starting must are right around 1ppm, which is more than a bottled, finished wine. Maybe I'm missing something on these tablets but if that's correct, I would definitely cut that down by at least half next time. You'll have much better kinetics in my opinion.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 14, 2017)

During the prep of a wine must we want to neutralize as much of the bacteria and wild yeasts that may be in the must. We could not achieve that with 1ppm rates.

1 Campden tab per gallon is pretty much the standard rate of dosage you will find on these forums. If you feel that 1ppm is adequate - go for it and measure out that amount from the standard K-Meta powders sold for wine, mead and beer making.

The tablets are pre-measured to provide the correct amount of S02 for a gallon of wine must. I've not heard of anyone reporting a problem at that rate of dosage. For those of us who make 1 gallon batches the tablets are far easier to use than trying to get the right amount of K-Meta powered form even with a digital scale. The majority of the K-Meta powder form is used at a rate of 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons - that would require measuring out 1/5 of a quarter teaspoon to get the recommended 30ppm for a gallon. 

The only issues I've seen reported and substantiated with Campden tablets has to do with not sufficiently crushing and dissolving them before addition to a wine must. Unless you add the dissolved tablets and fail to wait the recommended 24 hours before adding yeast - it's not that much of an issue. We've even had folks grossly overdose with the K-Meta powder and successfully start a fermentation by waiting a few extra days. 

Finally the rates for bottling aren't really applicable to the fermentation and pre-fermentation times since most folks wait several months to a year (or more) before bottling. During that time the SO2 is dissipating and in fact that's why most folks subscribe to a dosage of K-Meta every other racking.


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## barbiek (Mar 14, 2017)

A good fermentation takes oxygen give it a good stir to get some oxygen to it. Next time a bucket with a dish towel draped over it. Give it a stir everyday, then transfer it to carboy when sg is 1010 don't worry about transferring some of the lees. I learned from this site not to throw it out! It's usually a quick fix to most problems that arise! You can throw a blanket or a jacket around it


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## skeenatron (Mar 14, 2017)

Oh I fully agree with you that 1 ppm would obviously not be enough. However I'm not talking about free, or total SO2. I was referring to molecular SO2, sorry. I didn't realize it wasn't commonly discussed. It's basically the antimicrobial effectiveness of your sulfur addition. Here's a link about molecular, it's important stuff.

https://www.winebusiness.com/tools/?go=winemaking.calc&cid=60


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2017)

Campten tab = 0.44g x 6 gallons = 2.64g & 64ppm @ 6 gallons = 64ppm 
Campten tab = 0.55g x 6 gallons = 3.30g & 75ppm @ 6 gallons = 75ppm

1/4 tsp K-Meta (powder form) = 1.6g & 75ppm total
Which is 25ppm over the required 50ppm @ 3.6pH using the 1/4 tsp.

The recommended level of molecular SO2 for red wines is 0.5 mg/L (ppm); for white wines is 0.8 mg/L (ppm); and for dessert wines is up to 1.5 mg/L (ppm). You can use this calculator to determine how much Free SO2 is required to protect your wine, based on its pH. * Free SO2 over 50 mg/L (ppm) can be tasted and detected in nose of the wine.*

Could this be why so many have trouble with slow fermentations, funny smells and tastes, when using Tablets.

6 gallons with a 3.6 pH needs only 50ppm SO2 using .8 molecular chart. Remember going over 50ppm is not advised if doing MLF.

Does this look correct? @Scooter68 and @skeenatron


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 14, 2017)

Ok, so I am a little lost, ( still new to the lingo) but I found where my campden tablet said 75ppm per gallon. So if the ph is only 3.6, that would mean that I may of added to much. I just did what the package and recipe said. A tablet per gallon. So maybe try just 4 tablets per 6 gallons with these grapes next year? Am I understanding that right?


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## sour_grapes (Mar 14, 2017)

Tnuscan said:


> Campten tab = 0.44g x 6 gallons = 2.64g & 64ppm *x 6 *= 384ppm
> Campten tab = 0.55g x 6 gallons = 3.30g & 75ppm *x 6* = 450ppm
> 
> Does this look correct?



Why did you multiply by 6 the second time (the part in bold)? If one tablet gives 64 ppm to one gallon, then 6 tablets still gives 64 ppm for 6 gallons.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Why did you multiply by 6 the second time (the part in bold)? If one tablet gives 64 ppm to one gallon, then 6 tablets still gives 64 ppm for 6 gallons.



Didn't catch it, I knew that it seemed high. I had been working on it late last nite and saving a lot of ifno, copying and pasting moving decimals and redoing and that slipped by me. I even re read and re calculated before posting and still didn't catch it. Thanks! I am a scatterbrain.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2017)

I use a different calculator and it requires 1.9grams of K-Meta for 50ppm. SO2

I meant to put that with the post above and missed it too.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Why did you multiply by 6 the second time (the part in bold)? If one tablet gives 64 ppm to one gallon, then 6 tablets still gives 64 ppm for 6 gallons.



Do you or anyone else feel that the extra 25ppm is that bad? I know from reading that most of it gets bound during fermentation. But even the bound along with the free will halt Mlf if it is too high. So I figured extra may set primary fermentation back a little.???


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## skeenatron (Mar 14, 2017)

If you want to know how much to add, check out wineadds.com.

http://www.wineadds.com/so2

I've cross checked their SO2 calculator manually with my own which is based on molecular weights, and it's legit. In fact its the only completely accurate SO2 calculator I've found on the web period. I highly recommend keeping your SO2 adds pre-inoculation to around 40-50ppm, which in Sweetiepie's case would be 1.58g-1.97g of K-meta for 6 total gallons. That's enough to keep native microbes at bay without inhibiting your yeast or MLF bacteria. After fermentation, do what you wish. I try to keep my sulfur levels at 45ppm free during aging and 35ppm free at bottling, in the bottle. Know your campden tablet weights or use quality potassium metabisulfite powder and weigh it out yourself, or make some dilutions. Whatever you gotta do. Just remember that too much of this stuff will wreck your wine, for sure.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 14, 2017)

So in where in these recommended ranges would the various fruit wines fall?
Red wines 0.5 mg/L (ppm); 
White wines is 0.8 mg/L (ppm); 
Dessert wines is up to 1.5 mg/L (ppm)
So The following would be considere??? - just for starters???

Blackberry Red?
Blueberry Red?
Black Raspberry Red?
Black Currant Red?
Strawberry White?
Peach White?


Based on the single use kits available any Red wine or Wine with a predominance of Ascorbic Acid cannot be reliably tested. This seems to be true with any of the single use kits I've found and that's from the makers of those kits. Seems like they have a very limited range of use.


Always interesting to learn more on here. So far I've been using normally no more than1 campden tablet every other racking (6-8 weeks then between additions.) Only one of my wines has what I would call a sulfite nose to it and that was an Apricot wine. I was wondering about Apricot and I've decided, even now suspecting an overdose of SO2, Apricot is not in my 'I gotta make more of that category of wine flavors) I also suspect that one of my Strawberry wines suffered from a similar fate but again, Unless I make it almost gooey sweet, Strawberries are not my on my fave list. So now I have to look into testing hardware ($$$ Ouch) because again, the titration single use kits won't do me any good since the majority of my wines are dark wines.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> Ok, so I am a little lost, ( still new to the lingo) but I found where my campden tablet said 75ppm per gallon. So if the ph is only 3.6, that would mean that I may of added to much. I just did what the package and recipe said. A tablet per gallon. So maybe try just 4 tablets per 6 gallons with these grapes next year? Am I understanding that right?



Your fine, if the fermentation started your good. I started using the 1/4tsp of powdered K-Meta method, I used to use the tablets alot until I noticed, instead of Potassium, they were sodium. I just switched because the LHBS said thats what they sent them, so that's what they were selling. I can tell you for a fact more wine is lost and tainted because of wrong SO2 levels than probably any other issue.

Too much, you smell or taste it, or the yeast stresses, too little the wine starts to ruin.

Morewine has Manuals https://morewinemaking.com/content/manuals that will teach you well, plus supply most all the items you need to make great wine.

Edit: Sorry for the confusion.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 16, 2017)

Tnuscan said:


> Your fine, if the fermentation started your good. I started using the 1/4tsp of powdered K-Meta method, I used to use the tablets alot until I noticed, instead of Potassium, they were sodium. I just switched because the LHBS said thats what they sent them, so that's what they were selling. I can tell you for a fact more wine is lost and tainted because of wrong SO2 levels than probably any other issue.
> 
> Too much, you smell or taste it, or the yeast stresses, too little the wine starts to ruin.
> 
> ...





Thank you so much for the yes or no answer. I still am trying to understand, what I am suppose to be doing. So many ways to make wine. Currently trying to understand MLF. 

It doesn't help that I haven't been able to drink alcohol of any kind for over 20 years because it just plain upset my stomach in any amount. But recently did the Whole 30 diet and have found that it now tolerates low alcohol wines. Which is great because High Fructose Corn Syrup was found to cause me joint inflamation while on the diet. So trying to use my grapes I have up and if I can drink it, even better. Anyway, on top of the wine making lingo, trying to figure out what I like, and what the type of wines mean also. 

So thank you.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 16, 2017)

Mlf, simplified, is adding a bacteria that converts malic acid into lactic acid, a softer more rounded acid. To achieve this the so2 levels need to be under 50ppm,this lets them start doing what you want them to. Also a correct amount of mlf nutrient is added to keep them happy and healthy. Along with this nutrient we leave behind a small amount of lees. Here is the normal process.

Conduct primary fermentation, when brix reaches 0, press to carboy under airlock with minimal headspace, let gross lees settle 2 days, rack again, then add mlb(bacteria with nutrients)Leaving minimal headspace{following directions of mlb}. Gently stir every two weeks until conversion is completed (anywhere from 4 to 12 weeks), by testing (taste/chromotography). When complete, rack add so2 required by pH level (reading using charts). This starts the aging and dialing in process to suit your taste.


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## Rosa321 (Mar 17, 2017)

I'm glad you started this thread!

I pitched yeast yesterday and usually it is bubbling away 24hrs later. Today, nothing!
I'm getting nervous as it smells good and I don't want to lose the whole batch.

I have my brew belt on but it is quite cold and I'm wondering if that is the problem. 

Is it advised to wait the 72hrs before re-pitching the yeast?


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## skeenatron (Mar 17, 2017)

Rosa321 said:


> I'm glad you started this thread!
> 
> I pitched yeast yesterday and usually it is bubbling away 24hrs later. Today, nothing!
> I'm getting nervous as it smells good and I don't want to lose the whole batch.
> ...



What can you tell us about your fermentation? Fruit, yeast, Temps, adds, stuff like that.


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## Rosa321 (Mar 17, 2017)

I should also add that I used 71B-1122 instead of EC-1118 (which I used exclusively before) because this is a blackberry wine. I'm not sure if there is a difference there between fermentation start times with those two yeasts. 
I do have yeast nutrient and energizer in there along with pectic enzyme (it's Danger Dave's Dragon Blood Recipe) 
I did use 1/4 tsp Kmeta at the start since they are wild blackberries. 
Temp is pretty cool, even with the belt on (66F). 

I did, however, see a few frothy bubbles at the top when I went to check the temp. Could be left over from when I stirred it this morning, or could be something starting...
Maybe it's just the cooler temp and I'm over-reacting (wouldn't be the first time! haha  ). It's just never taken this long to start.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 17, 2017)

Data from the manufacturer : The 71B strain is a rapid starter with a constant and complete fermentation between 15° and 30°C (59° and 86°F) that has the ability to metabolize high amounts (20% to 40%) of malic acid.

BUT : All the other factors weigh in along with Temperature like acidity. The other thing is that at colder temps even if the yeast is fine with that temp the K-meta might be slower to dissipate and therefore slow or prevent the yeast from starting promptly.

Patience - give it another 48 hours before you worry much. And don't forget not all fermentations are lively bubblers. Most of my fruit wines haven't generated a large foam cap. Assuming you are doing an open bucket with cloth cover or loose fit cap? If you use an airlock on a bucket with a plastic cap - don't expect to see bubbling - The bucket lids leak air so unless you wet that sealing gasket down and achieve an air-tight seal you may never see any bubbling with a plastic lid on a bucket. (Been there done that.)

Hang in there.


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## skeenatron (Mar 17, 2017)

Probably still just going through the lag phase, which can be elongated by a cooler start temp, though 66F isn't that bad really. I wouldn't touch it for another 24 hours but having a plan ready is a good idea.

Happen to know the temp difference between the yeast slurry and the juice when you pitched? Also how much total volume are we dealing with?


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## Rosa321 (Mar 17, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> Data from the manufacturer : The 71B strain is a rapid starter with a constant and complete fermentation between 15° and 30°C (59° and 86°F) that has the ability to metabolize high amounts (20% to 40%) of malic acid.
> 
> BUT : All the other factors weigh in along with Temperature like acidity. The other thing is that at colder temps even if the yeast is fine with that temp the K-meta might be slower to dissipate and therefore slow or prevent the yeast from starting promptly.
> 
> ...



Thanks! I do have a loose fitting lid on. The other fruit wines I've made did produce some ferocious bubbling. I've never made a blackberry wine before.

I'll hang in there and see what happens. And I'll try not to panic!


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## Rosa321 (Mar 17, 2017)

skeenatron said:


> Probably still just going through the lag phase, which can be elongated by a cooler start temp, though 66F isn't that bad really. I wouldn't touch it for another 24 hours but having a plan ready is a good idea.
> 
> Happen to know the temp difference between the yeast slurry and the juice when you pitched? Also how much total volume are we dealing with?



Thank you!

I don't know the exact temperatures, but when I initially mixed the yeast and water it was 100F (not sure what it was 15mins later) and the slurry was measuring around 55F earlier that day (I didn't have the brew belt on long before pitching the yeast).

I'm just reading up on this now. Maybe it was too great of a temperature difference for the yeast?

Also, it's a 6 gallon batch.


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## skeenatron (Mar 17, 2017)

Well your so2 add looks good, your nutrients look good. Your temp is good. I think scooter has the right idea, give it chance to get through the lag phase as this can be longer or shorter depending on a number of factors. If it ends up not taking off, it could have been a yeast to juice temp issue which a reinoculation could fix. Keep us posted!


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## Rosa321 (Mar 17, 2017)

skeenatron said:


> Well your so2 add looks good, your nutrients look good. Your temp is good. I think scooter has the right idea, give it chance to get through the lag phase as this can be longer or shorter depending on a number of factors. If it ends up not taking off, it could have been a yeast to juice temp issue which a reinoculation could fix. Keep us posted!



Thanks again!
I will surely keep you posted.

Is the 1/4tsp Kmeta enough to keep it from spoiling? I still have the lid loosely on... Fingers crossed something happens soon!


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## skeenatron (Mar 17, 2017)

Rosa321 said:


> Thanks again!
> I will surely keep you posted.
> 
> Is the 1/4tsp Kmeta enough to keep it from spoiling? I still have the lid loosely on... Fingers crossed something happens soon!



Ya you took care of native microbest with that so2 dose. Now your yeast is in control. I wouldn't do any more sulfuring.


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## Rosa321 (Mar 19, 2017)

Still nothing happening  Re-pitch the yeast?
It looks like the yeast is falling to the bottom. Before I stir and squeeze the fruit, the must looks quite clear. 
Maybe it was a temp thing, or a bad packet of yeast?

This has never happened before...I hope I can save this batch!


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## skeenatron (Mar 19, 2017)

Rosa321 said:


> Still nothing happening  Re-pitch the yeast?
> It looks like the yeast is falling to the bottom. Before I stir and squeeze the fruit, the must looks quite clear.
> Maybe it was a temp thing, or a bad packet of yeast?
> 
> This has never happened before...I hope I can save this batch!



Ya I'd re-pitch


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## Scooter68 (Mar 19, 2017)

Unless a bacterial infection gets past the K-Meta treatment what's the worst that can happen? It starts to ferment with a wild yeast? Re-pitch and keep an eye on temps and acidity. I'd try to get temp up to low 70s for starting out - then let it drop a little if you have to.


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## Rosa321 (Mar 19, 2017)

Thank you both for the advice!
I re-pitched the yeast. I gave it 20mins this time and it was pretty frothy so I hope that's a good sign for the little microbes.


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## Rosa321 (Mar 19, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> Unless a bacterial infection gets past the K-Meta treatment what's the worst that can happen? It starts to ferment with a wild yeast? Re-pitch and keep an eye on temps and acidity. I'd try to get temp up to low 70s for starting out - then let it drop a little if you have to.



I'm trying. The house is very chilly, so I have my bucket wrapped in towels to hopefully warm up!


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## Rosa321 (Mar 20, 2017)

Still No Fermentation... :-( Just gonna let it sit and see where it goes, I guess.

Wonder what I could have goofed. Followed the recipe like I have a dozen times before.


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## Rosa321 (Mar 21, 2017)

Ok. I'm officially done complaining to this thread. Fermentation started! 

Sorry...patience is obviously not my strong suit!


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## Tnuscan (Mar 22, 2017)

@Sweetiepie , how is your wine coming along? Did you rack it to the carboy?


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 22, 2017)

Thank you for asking. I got confused with what I heard here and several recipes I was going off of. I think I was suppose to put it into the carboy at about a week or at 1.03 ish and I waited two weeks and it finished at 1.000. It held that SG for 3 days before going it to the carboy. I did check and stir it each day, I just thought I was suppose to let it ferment dry before the carboy and then I looked at the recipes again. So it was open to air with just a cloth over it for that length of time, hoping I didn't mess it up to bad. Since it has a bad after taste like vomit. But upon research on here I let it sit in the glass and it was better. I was worried it had an infection. 

I am still tying to find wine I like, so as a result I opened a new bottle that night and it had that same after taste. So I think it is fine, I am most likely going to have to back sweeten and maybe it is the acid level, I don't like. Since I didn't know I left it at 3.6. 

So since your asking, can I ask should I rack again when it hits 21 days? That is what most grapes recipes say. My extra carboy is showing up on Friday so I could rack again on Monday, that will be 21 days from the start. Or since I just did it on Monday, wait a while?

P.S. I originally thought I could top off with water until reading on here it should be alcohol and the only thing I had to top off with was Mogen David's Blackberry wine. Hope that will be ok.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 22, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> Thank you for asking. I got confused with what I heard here and several recipes I was going off of. I think I was suppose to put it into the carboy at about a week or at 1.03 ish and I waited two weeks and it finished at 1.000. It held that SG for 3 days before going it to the carboy. I did check and stir it each day, I just thought I was suppose to let it ferment dry before the carboy and then I looked at the recipes again. So it was open to air with just a cloth over it for that length of time, hoping I didn't mess it up to bad. Since it has a bad after taste like vomit. But upon research on here I let it sit in the glass and it was better. I was worried it had an infection.
> 
> I am still tying to find wine I like, so as a result I opened a new bottle that night and it had that same after taste. So I think it is fine, I am most likely going to have to back sweeten and maybe it is the acid level, I don't like. Since I didn't know I left it at 3.6.
> 
> ...



Did you add sulfite (k-meta) when you racked or did you just rack off of the lees?


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 22, 2017)

I did not add anything, just racked off the lees.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 22, 2017)

Ok, if you didn't add k-meta at racking, and you added the bottle of wine to top up, Yes, let it sit at around 72 degrees or so. Since you were at 1.000 you might not of finished fermenting. Mine usually falls down around 0.996 to 0.994 or so.

You could go two ways here:

Assuming your topped up, after letting it sit, if it doesn't start fermenting, you could (stabilize)add your k-meta, sorbate, (if backsweeting), and add clearing agents. Let it sit 2 or 3 weeks to clear.

Or if you want it to clear on its own , just give it time in the carboy to do so, racking every 3 months.

Here is normal procedure:
Ferment to 1.010, rack to carboy with airlock. Let finish fermenting (dry). 3 days no change in S.g. 
Rack, add k-meta, sorbate if back sweeting, degass while adding clearing agents. After clearing 2 to 4 weeks, rack, lightly sulfite, age 3 months, bottle or keep aging, racking every 3 months.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 22, 2017)

Wonderful! Thank you. I had moved it to the basement which is about 50 to 55 degrees right now but I will drag it back upstairs and wait probably until Monday and rack. I was going to wait before clearing because I am not sure on the degassing, and have read that time will help with that. Can I back sweetening shortly before bottling, like at 9 months or so? Or is it better to do it now. I was hoping the taste might come around some before I sweetened it.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 22, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> Wonderful! Thank you. I had moved it to the basement which is about 50 to 55 degrees right now but I will drag it back upstairs and wait probably until Monday and rack. I was going to wait before clearing because I am not sure on the degassing, and have read that time will help with that. Can I back sweetening shortly before bottling, like at 9 months or so? Or is it better to do it now. I was hoping the taste might come around some before I sweetened it.



I re-read your post and noticed you used EC-1118, this yeast always ferments dry for me, so you my be ok where your at. You'll have to warm it up to degass.

After most fermentations a lot of the free SO2 gets bound, and does not leave you with a lot of protection, this is why you need the addition after racking off the gross lees. If you added a sweet wine this has me scratching my head.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 22, 2017)

Ugh.... I didn't even think of it being sweetened. Thank you! Of course I took the SG reading before I topped off the carboy. I have been checking it everyday and no bubbling or fermentation on top. Thank you for explaining the binding of the SO2 and it needing the addition. I probably just should of used water to top it off. Thank you again for helping me through this huge learning curve.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 22, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> Ugh.... I didn't even think of it being sweetened. Thank you! Of course I took the SG reading before I topped off the carboy. I have been checking it everyday and no bubbling or fermentation on top. Thank you for explaining the binding of the SO2 and it needing the addition. I probably just should of used water to top it off. Thank you again for helping me through this huge learning curve.



Wouldn't use water to top up, I would use a wine.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 22, 2017)

Still don't get the complete aversion to using small amounts of water to top-off. I could understand if the recipe was thin on fruit/grapes per gallon and a low ABV but it you plan ahead you can boost your concentrations and avoid the issues with adding a sugar/fermentation source to you wine during the aging process. (not with a kit wine perhaps) If a single bottle of wine (25.3 oz) is only 3% of a 6 gallon batch, a 3% addition of water to a batch shouldn't terribly dilute the batch either. Again when doing a kit wine or if the batch wasn't designed to be a little strong to begin with I certainly understand the issue with diluting. I use nothing but water (usually filtered or Distilled water to top off and I haven't had any issue with watered down wines.


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 22, 2017)

Do winemakers on occasion still use egg whites to clear their wine or should I order something to clear it? I was thinking I had months to worry about that. But I have lots of chickens and lots of eggs and that would be great if that still works.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 22, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> Still don't get the complete aversion to using small amounts of water to top-off. I could understand if the recipe was thin on fruit/grapes per gallon and a low ABV but it you plan ahead you can boost your concentrations and avoid the issues with adding a sugar/fermentation source to you wine during the aging process. (not with a kit wine perhaps) If a single bottle of wine (25.3 oz) is only 3% of a 6 gallon batch, a 3% addition of water to a batch shouldn't terribly dilute the batch either. Again when doing a kit wine or if the batch wasn't designed to be a little strong to begin with I certainly understand the issue with diluting. I use nothing but water (usually filtered or Distilled water to top off and I haven't had any issue with watered down wines.



If you like using water to top up, that's cool, what ever works for you. If your happy I'm happy.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 23, 2017)

On the egg whites you might search this forum. Here's one thread I ran across: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37008&page=2


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## heatherd (Mar 23, 2017)

Sweetiepie said:


> Do winemakers on occasion still use egg whites to clear their wine or should I order something to clear it? I was thinking I had months to worry about that. But I have lots of chickens and lots of eggs and that would be great if that still works.



@Sweetiepie, there are a number of ways you can clear the wine:
-Time, such as letting the wine sit in a carboy until clear and degassed
-Bentonite
-Superkleer KC, which contains some trace amounts of a shellfish-based ingredient that some people are sensitive to
-Isinglass
-Sparkolloid
-Gelatin finings
-Pectic enzyme

My process is to let the wines sit for six months to clear and degass on their own, adding camden tablets every three months. Then I taste and bottle if good.

That said, I have a Muscat Canelli 12 gallon batch from fresh juice buckets that is at 9 months and not clear. I'm going to rack it and see if that helps, but my next step would be to add something to clear it. I'm going to go with bentonite as I have a friend and a family member who are sensitive to SuperKleer KC, which is a bummer because it is miraculous stuff!

Here's more info: https://winemakermag.com/26-a-clearer-understanding-of-fining-agents

Heather


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## Sweetiepie (Mar 23, 2017)

You were right, it has started bubbling again now that it is warmed back up.


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