# Can vineyard exist without chemical treatment?



## Dusan (Mar 17, 2021)

Hi.

I wondering, can vineyard exist without chemical treatment?

I get it for grapes, grapes will not bee good or will be totally damaged without chemical treatment. That is clear.
But does vine will survive.

I ask this for variations like Chardonnay, Merlot, Sauvignon Blanc, Zinfandelm and similar.

Thank you.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 17, 2021)

The answer is "It depends." It depends on location most of all. I think vinifera survive better in California without as much chemical usage. (Someone help me here.) On the East Coast - Virginia especially, the vines are subjected to heavy Downy and Powdery Mildew pressure as well as anthracnose and black rot. Black rot is a grape disease and does not seem to affect the vine. All the others do affect the foliage and over time can weaken the vine. Heathy foliage is required for vine health. The vine will survive but for how long? And the vines look like crap by the end of a hot, humid season.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 17, 2021)

* your list is vinifera varieties. They will do better in a low humidity environment therefore less chemical is dosed in dry parts of the country than in humid regions. . . . As @VinesnBines said it depends where you are growing your grapes. From a historical point most chemicals available date a hundred years (sulphur is several hundred) so yes grapes have grow without chemicals for a thousand years. Just not in Virginia! 
* if you step away from Vinifera and look at natives as concord (mom grew them) or the hybrid varieties as Briana they do quite well. I spray Japanese beetles on the vineyard but at home I take a jar on two plants and catch them ,, and dump em in with the chickens. Also, I didn’t know black rot till I had fifty plants concentrating on mostly vinifera genes. A general conclusion is the more it tastes like a wine grape the less it is adapted to eastern US. 
* I am cutting varieties as Frontenac and trying more black rot resistant seedlings from the compost pile. There are good “organic“ capable plants out there, we just have to find them, ,,, especially back yard growers who don’t want a spray program. In the mean time I will propagate the ones that survive with less work.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 17, 2021)

Organic and biodynamic vineyards can be found in California. Insects are rarely a problem here (leafhoppers sometimes). However, the vines still need to be sprayed with sulfur to stop powdery mildew or the vines are less productive.


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## Dusan (Mar 17, 2021)

So at the end vineyard will be gone through years without protection and sulfur is minimum step for protection, like organic and biodynamic vineyards.
I don't want to use chemicals who will degrade my soil and health.

I plant very little amount of vines for test. Location is Europe, 960-990m above sea. There is no fog (in late fall and winter we have very rarely). Also no moist. No hard winds. Soil is slope and look at shout with good drainage. Minimum measured temperature ever in winter is -20, but that happen two times in 60 years. But we can have late frost in spring. So I think I can go only with sulfur.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 17, 2021)

Are there vineyards nearby? If so you might ask what insect and disease issues they have. At least the agriculture department or ministry should be able to give you some idea what to expect.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 17, 2021)

Dusan said:


> So at the end vineyard will be gone through years without protection and sulfur is minimum step for protection, like organic and biodynamic vineyards.


 first off, _welcome to Wine Making Talk Dusan_

when we use any chemical treatment it is to improve the yield for commercial purposes
grapes grow like weeds


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## Dusan (Mar 17, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> first off, _welcome to Wine Making Talk Dusan_
> 
> when we use any chemical treatment it is to improve the yield for commercial purposes
> grapes grow like weeds


Thank you. That sound promising 




VinesnBines said:


> Are there vineyards nearby? If so you might ask what insect and disease issues they have. At least the agriculture department or ministry should be able to give you some idea what to expect.



Nope, there no one growing grapes. I know, sounds crazy. But I have one white grape variation (I think is "Zilavka") and grows very good like vine but fruit get Uncinula necator in most of years in august/september. I don't use anything of chemical.


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## balatonwine (Mar 18, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> when we use any chemical treatment it is to improve the yield for commercial purposes
> grapes grow like weeds



If I did not spray, my grapes would die. Leaves and fruits are attacked from any number of American imported pests. In fact, I have lost many even so, and even despite, that I do spray. There is a lot of disease pressure here.

If grapes were like "weeds" here, they would not need such TLC.

In short, each area is different as well at the vine varietals being grown, and that needs to be considered rather than blanket statements. Hope this helps.


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## balatonwine (Mar 18, 2021)

Dusan said:


> I wondering, can vineyard exist without chemical treatment?



In Europe, growing vinifera? Yes. In some places like Santorini.




Dusan said:


> I plant very little amount of vines for test. Location is Europe, 960-990m above sea. There is no fog (in late fall and winter we have very rarely). Also no moist. No hard winds. Soil is slope and look at shout with good drainage. Minimum measured temperature ever in winter is -20, but that happen two times in 60 years. But we can have late frost in spring. So I think I can go only with sulfur.



If you could tell us exactly where you are, everyone can provide better input, suggestions and ideas.

I also live in Europe. So might (or might not) be able to assist better than some in the USA, because.... yes things are different here.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 18, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> yes things are different here.


Things are different EVERYWHERE when growing grapes. That is why the old real estate adage fits: The three most important things are; location, location, location.


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## balatonwine (Mar 18, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> Things are different EVERYWHERE when growing grapes. That is why the old real estate adage fits: The three most important things are; location, location, location.



A bit more complicated than simply geography. Including what organic spray are available and sold in each country. And if one needs a "certificate" showing you have been trained how to apply them, before one can even buy them. 

For example, another option for powdery mildew control is potassium bicarbonate. Which is even more soil friendly than sulfur (it also does not harm beneficial insects like sulfur can). But one can not buy that in all parts of Europe for agricultural applications, and if one can, it may need a certificate. Hope this helps.


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## cenk57 (Mar 18, 2021)

Other than the Country in which you are located, your microclimate will effect your vineyard immensely. My vineyard management plan here in coastal Virginia is much different than say just 50-75 miles west of my location which is in the mountains. So yes, it has been stressed that location is important. You may want contact your agriculture department/ministry. They could maybe help. We have several pests to deal with, so I do use chemicals on a schedule to get a somewhat reliable crop each year.


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## balatonwine (Mar 18, 2021)

cenk57 said:


> You may want contact your agriculture department/ministry.



I always recommend contacting the local Ag/U. extension for USA issues. They are great. They always helped me when I still lived there.

But I have lived in Central Europe for quite a while now. And such departments are.... IMHO... often simply an office wrapped around a rubber stamp. So if you vary from their forms, they may not get it.

Seriously. A real story: A local organic dairy farmer got a letter from the Agricultural Ministry. They wanted to know what chemicals he sprayed on his pastures. He wrote back, saying he was an organic farmer, and did not spray at all. They wrote back saying they understood he was organic, but still needed to know what chemicals he sprayed on his fields.....

Like I said... things are different here.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 18, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> Seriously. A real story: A local organic dairy farmer got a letter from the Agricultural Ministry. They wanted to know what chemicals he sprayed on his pastures. He wrote back, saying he was an organic farmer, and did not spray at all. They wrote back saying they understood he was organic, but still needed to know what chemicals he sprayed on his fields.....


Oh that sounds like the US Department of Agriculture. Really.


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## balatonwine (Mar 18, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> Oh that sounds like the US Department of Agriculture. Really.



I have worked with and actually for (was once an employee of) the USDA when I was still living in the USA. It is nothing like the USDA. For one things, the rules are there in the USA. (mostly) Clear. Published. Even if a clerk gets it wrong, you can take it to court and win based on the published rules. They may be complex, but they are the law. Even if you don't like the law, you may find the law burdensome, at least the law is there. You can fight the law if you wish.

Here, all is obfuscated, muddy, and nothing is clear. Mostly "word of mouth", "tradition" and "he said - he said" debates. In courts of law there is no such thing as "precedent" case law. Every judge can rule how they see fit. No rock to stand on. They do that, IMHO, to make you indebted to officialdom, as to get anything done, you have to "know a guy". There is a constant, unspoken expectation of "favors" to get things done. IYKWIM.

Like I said... things are different here.


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## Dusan (Mar 18, 2021)

Here is my location. But there no one vineyard here. 30+ miles from there on shout we can found a lot of vineyards but climate is totally different, relay hot. On north no vineyards.

So at the end, I can let it and watch what will happened or spray with sulfur or that potassium bicarbonate (this second sounds better *cenk57*) or something else if I found but here no one organic vineyards and experience is low about that.


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## Handy Andy (Mar 20, 2021)

I am a beginner to wine making, so I might be wrong 

Potassium Bicarbonate might not be a good idea How to Treat Powdery Mildew Using Homemade and Organic Remedies. Its used as a preservative not to treat mildew.

What varieties of grapes are you growing, are they disease resistant?

One of my vineyards is Verdelho which is prone to downy mildew. I am considering changing this to another variety, although this year with the use of chemicals it is looking very healthy. 

Methods of pruning the vines might help reduce mildew, ie I am also considering allowing my vines to grow taller, they have been pruned low to the ground in the past which may promote downy mildew by restricting the air flow.

I live in a marine environment, with high humidity all year round, mildew is a real problem, especially with Verdelho. 

You live half way up a mountain, with a wide range of temperatures and presumably humidity depending on season. You will not have problems with mildew all year round! Are your vineyards exposed to high winds, when the vines should be flowering? or are they sheltered from high winds?


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## balatonwine (Mar 20, 2021)

Handy Andy said:


> I am a beginner to wine making, so I might be wrong
> 
> Potassium Bicarbonate might not be a good idea How to Treat Powdery Mildew Using Homemade and Organic Remedies. Its used as a preservative not to treat mildew.



I forgive you, as a beginner. Because you are both right and wrong. Your link said that Sodium Bicarbonate should not be used. But Sodium Bicarbonate is not Potassium Bicarbonate. As even your own link described, they are different. Sodium Bicarbonate is the chemical used exclusively as preservative, and not as a fungicide. And it is also not Potassium Bicarbonate, which your link actually, and indeed said was a valid fungicide. So you are there wrong. Since I suggested Potassium Bicarbonate, not Sodium Bicarbonate.

But, you are also right, because as your link said, that even Potassium Bicarbonate for fungicide purposes is almost always sold as a product mix, not as the chemical only. Potassium Bicarbonate for spraying is sold as an approved compound mix. Armicarb, for example, is one such example available in some parts of Europe. And there are others. I simply mentioned the chemical alone, so I was not forced (till now) to mention any specific retail product. Hope this helps.


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## balatonwine (Mar 20, 2021)

Handy Andy said:


> You live half way up a mountain, with a wide range of temperatures and presumably humidity depending on season. You will not have problems with mildew all year round! Are your vineyards exposed to high winds, when the vines should be flowering? or are they sheltered from high winds?



It is not that simple.

Yes, air flow and pruning methods can help. But... only to some extent in many areas. And results can vary. I do use both methods, but they are only part of a more holistic totality of vineyard integrated management.

Powdery mildew, for example, is not related much to humidity. That is why it is still an issue in dry California vineyards. Downy mildew is more humidity dependent. But there are many other pests than just those two. It is complicated.


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## Handy Andy (Mar 22, 2021)

My main issue here is downy mildew. Thanks for the heads up on Armicarb, I will see if I can get it or something like it here in the Azores


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## montanarick (Mar 22, 2021)

Move to Montana - hardly ever have to do anything except contend with voles


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## balatonwine (Mar 22, 2021)

Handy Andy said:


> My main issue here is downy mildew. Thanks for the heads up on Armicarb, I will see if I can get it or something like it here in the Azores



For downy mildew, the best organic option is Bordeaux mixture. Yes, it is copper. And, no, it is not good for the soil. But studies have shown that the vines can handle quite a copper soil load (even if some trees can not).






Bordeaux Mixture - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics







www.sciencedirect.com





Potassium bicarbonate can help against downy mildew, but downy mildew can also become resistant to potassium bicarbonate (which is one reason why it is now regulated in the EU -- it was over used and caused resistance).

There are of course also non-organic options for downy mildew.


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## dwhill40 (Mar 23, 2021)

Muscadines.


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## Handy Andy (Mar 30, 2021)

montanarick said:


> Move to Montana - hardly ever have to do anything except contend with voles



Its milder weather in the Azores, I will stay where I am for the time being.


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## dwhill40 (Mar 30, 2021)

I've been to the Azores. A good lookin' woman behind every tree.


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## mbrssmd (Apr 1, 2021)

Handy Andy said:


> Its milder weather in the Azores, I will stay where I am for the time being.


Apologies for veering off topic, but "Azores" is a word of my youth -- bringing to mind hearing about fond memories held by my dad. As long as he was alive he would always smile when talking about the six weeks or so he spent in the Azores in late summer 1945 (prior to VE-day he'd been a B-17 tail-gunner based in England). They were in the Azores doing a post-war map-making project. The weather had to be absolutely perfect for photography -- and if not, they would have the day (and occasionally a plane) to themselves... Some happy days for him and his crewmates (they could even pick up radio broadcasts from NY), after having gone through quite a few combat missions. Again, sorry for going off topic.


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## Handy Andy (Apr 2, 2021)

mbrssmd said:


> Apologies for veering off topic, but "Azores" is a word of my youth -- bringing to mind hearing about fond memories held by my dad. As long as he was alive he would always smile when talking about the six weeks or so he spent in the Azores in late summer 1945 (prior to VE-day he'd been a B-17 tail-gunner based in England). They were in the Azores doing a post-war map-making project. The weather had to be absolutely perfect for photography -- and if not, they would have the day (and occasionally a plane) to themselves... Some happy days for him and his crewmates (they could even pick up radio broadcasts from NY), after having gone through quite a few combat missions. Again, sorry for going off topic.



It might be off topic, but very interesting never the less. The American base is in Lajes on Terceira today. I did not know there had been a secret base on Santa Maria. https://www.panam.org/images/People_Places/AzoresSteppingStones/Secret-Base-by-Daniel-Haulman.pdf

Edit Santa Maria island is also known as the Ihla de Sol, it is further south than the rest of the Azores group of Islands. It gets a lot more sunshine than the rest of the Azores and is where many Azorians go for Holidays. It doesnt have many trees and has a very small population. The neighbouring island of Sao Miguel is the biggest island in the Azores group and is very pretty, with lots of trees, and volcanic lakes, and active volcanoes and with hot springs.


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## Handy Andy (Apr 4, 2021)

dwhill40 said:


> I've been to the Azores. A good lookin' woman behind every tree.



Not all the islands have lots of trees, they are all different, as are the ladies!

Ihla Flores most westerly > great in the summer time, but gets hammered by every gale/storm in the winter! Not many trees but plenty of waterfalls and by its name lots of flowers.

Grupo Central > misses most winter storms, mostly mild all year round. Sao Jorge is the nature island, best walking trails, Faial has more restaurants, with a cracking view of Pico. Pico lots of wine making, less touristy, and the biggest mountain in Portugal.

Terceira is the party island, tourists, agriculture, industry etc.

Sao Miguel very touristy lots of scenery and volcanoes, and trees. Would be wonderful to fly over and photograph especially if you are not paying in 1945

Santa Maria best harbour in the azores, small, with eco tourism, fishing, agriculture, quiet with lots of sunshine, lots of vines.

Which islands did you get too!


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## dwhill40 (Apr 8, 2021)

The Navy port there is Punta Del Gado(sp?). In the early 80's it was like stepping into a time capsule from the 1950's. I remember low clouds and thinking it was wet place. The view towards the inland was long rising grassland and sheep. They basically closed up shop at sunset and we couldn't find a place to drink a beer.


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## Handy Andy (Apr 9, 2021)

Ponta Delgada. 
Things have changed since the 80's although with the Corona Virus still being on Sao Miguel(they still have about 100 cases) you might have difficulty getting a drink after 8pm. The other islands are free of Covid and mostly operating as per normal, with the exceptions of masks needed to go into shops and bars if they dont know you. 

The Islands are like taking a step back in time, I would say 70's or 80's today. But they all have electricity and street lights, and mostly tarred roads oh! and no crime.


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