# Fine Vine Wines Closing Their Doors



## Johnd (Nov 20, 2018)

Very sad to see them go, just got this news in an email:

*Effective November 30th 2018*

*Fine Fine Wines and Dallas Home are closing.*

This has been a tough decision for Janna, her family, and the staff here at Fine Vine Wines and Dallas Home Brew. George sold his first wine kit March 3rd, 2003. Rick has worked for George for 10 years and I, Brian, have worked for George for the last 9 years.

George has had a large impact on a lot of people's lives, both customers and former employees. He has helped thousands of people get into the hobby of wine making through his advice and love of wine. He has had customers that have started as amature home wine makers that have gone on to open wineries. He has had customers and employees that have moved from home brewers to professional brewers. He enjoyed watching people grow with the hobby and took great pride in their growth.

His loss on November 2nd is a large part of the reason we made the decision to close, but not the only reason. The entire home wine and beer making hobby has been in a slump for well over a year. Many have noticed that it has taken us longer to get stock back in than it used to and sales or lack thereof have been part of the reason. George and I had talked about this possibility even before he went in for his surgery.

I would like to thank every one of our customers on behalf of George, his family and the Staff here at Fine Vine Wines. I know George, and the rest of us, have enjoyed the 15+ years helping everyone make the best wine and beer they possibly could.

Brian, Jana and Rick


----------



## FTC Wines (Nov 20, 2018)

Sorry to see them close. They gave us good service for years! Roy


----------



## tdidona (Nov 20, 2018)

I'm sorry to see them close as well, they were the only place I purchased from. Does anyone have any online retailers you can recommend to purchase the yearly limited edition kits, or other reliable retailers? I've used Label Peelers once or twice and had great experiences, but most of these online shops don't carry all manufacturers like Fine Vine Wines did. Thanks.


----------



## ibglowin (Nov 20, 2018)

So sad for sure. Hopefully when one door closes another will open somewhere else. Lets hope so.


----------



## heatherd (Nov 20, 2018)

I got that sad email too as I've been buying from him for years. They were unique in carrying Mosti, RJS, Winexpert, and Cellar craft. I don't know of any others...


----------



## kyle5434 (Nov 20, 2018)

I had noticed that most of the kits had been out of stock for quite some time.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 20, 2018)

heatherd said:


> I got that sad email too as I've been buying from him for years. They were unique in carrying Mosti, RJS, Winexpert, and Cellar craft. I don't know of any others...



Hopefully, another operation will pick up the Mosti Mondiale line and handle it as well as George did.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 20, 2018)

Was really sad to hear this. I was really hoping someone in the family or one of the guys that'd been with him for years would pick up the business. I didn't realize there has been a slump in the wine and beer making business. George built up quite a business and was unique in that he carried all the major lines. This was great, as options seem to be limited for Cellar Craft, RJS and Mosti.


----------



## FTC Wines (Nov 20, 2018)

I know we are trying hard to eliminate the “slump” in Home wine making. Didn’t realize it was an issue. Roy


----------



## TemperanceOwl (Nov 20, 2018)

Same here on all your comments! I'm really sorry to see them go, and I had no idea there was a slump. There hasn't been a slump in my small corner of the market. 
I had ordered two of the RJS restricted quantities. Anybody have a recommendation on who else to try?


----------



## ratflinger (Nov 20, 2018)

I've been buying from George for 8 - 10 years & was really depressed when he passed, and now this happens. I'm a big Mosti fan and I'm just afraid I'm going to be out of luck. No one seems to ever have matched his shipping and overall pricing. I emailed Mosti & asked them who else I could buy from and they just pointed me to Brewcraft, whose website shows who they sell to but I've been in some of those stores and have never seen Mosti product. Brewcraft better step up or Mosti is going to take big hit.


----------



## crushday (Nov 20, 2018)

I'm super bummed by this news followed by the profound news of George's passing. I'm sure this wasn't an easy decision for family and staff. In the wake, anyone know where to get Mosti and Passport Series 2019 kits? Mine were back ordered. I need another supplier.


----------



## ASR (Nov 21, 2018)

I got my first kit, and loads of equipment through them. Always ncie on phone, even for the most basic questions.


----------



## joeswine (Nov 21, 2018)

Through the years I've had personal contact with George and he always came through.his product was always on time and if there was a problem he corrected it.
I think if you look at the pricing of wine kits, you can see why the decline and the rise in making cheap wine kits has expanded.
George will be missed that's for sure .


----------



## ibglowin (Nov 21, 2018)

When "Shop Small" started up years ago George and FVW was always the first place I went online on Saturday morning.


----------



## ibglowin (Nov 21, 2018)

For anyone anywhere close to OK. High Gravity carries the big three kits (RJS, WE CC Showcase).


----------



## heatherd (Nov 21, 2018)

Homebrew4less seems to have mosti on their website.


----------



## ratflinger (Nov 22, 2018)

heatherd said:


> Homebrew4less seems to have mosti on their website.



Yes they do, unfortunately they want $44 to ship one kit, which tells me they are not interested in internet sales. Everyone carries WineExpert, I have found 1 or 2 for RJS and these all offer free shipping (yeah I know shipping isn't free, but it's not $44 either). I think everyone should press Mosti by sending them an email and asking where to buy their kits. Since it's so hard to find anyone selling them how do they stay in business?


----------



## VCN (Nov 22, 2018)

ratflinger said:


> Yes they do, unfortunately they want $44 to ship one kit, which tells me they are not interested in internet sales. Everyone carries WineExpert, I have found 1 or 2 for RJS and these all offer free shipping (yeah I know shipping isn't free, but it's not $44 either). I think everyone should press Mosti by sending them an email and asking where to buy their kits. Since it's so hard to find anyone selling them how do they stay in business?



Not sure where your located in the USA, but look up “Vintner’s Cellar” there are locations across the states and they will carry all the Mosti products. I don’t know if they will ship but a location may be close by if you like mosti products. They will be Vintners cellar branded but these are all mosti products.


----------



## ceeaton (Nov 22, 2018)

heatherd said:


> Homebrew4less seems to have mosti on their website.


Thanks for posting that Heather. I can drive there in a little over an hour. Just seems that the prices are a bit high, but I normally make WE kits. Do you like the Mosti kits? Are they worth the extra $'s?


----------



## ratflinger (Nov 23, 2018)

I moved to Mosti on Georges recommendation and have been pleased with their product, but I have not made any WE kits in a long time so I'm not for sure how they compare now.


----------



## ratflinger (Nov 23, 2018)

VCN said:


> Not sure where your located in the USA, but look up “Vintner’s Cellar” there are locations across the states and they will carry all the Mosti products. I don’t know if they will ship but a location may be close by if you like mosti products. They will be Vintners cellar branded but these are all mosti products.



Thanks, I'll look into this.


----------



## heatherd (Nov 23, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> Thanks for posting that Heather. I can drive there in a little over an hour. Just seems that the prices are a bit high, but I normally make WE kits. Do you like the Mosti kits? Are they worth the extra $'s?


Craig, I find the I like the Mosti kits - that's the Amarone you guys tasted of mine at our meet-up last year, which folks felt had good body. I tend to like their stuff, even more so if I can find it on sale!


----------



## grapeman (Nov 24, 2018)

I had bought from George for 15 years and had always looked forward to talking with George when I could before being active in this forum , I was active on the Fine Vine Wines forum and eventually became co-administrators of it with Wade Evans. Many members transitioned over here when George made the hard decision to sell that forum to this one. George always took a personal attitude with everything he did with the store, even going to Italy to buy equipment and he traveled to an hour north of me to near Montreal to negotiate deals and make Mosti Mondiale purchases direct from them. There were a few times that George flew overhead on his way there that I would look skyward to the jet flying at 50000 feet and I swear I could see the plane twinkle in the sunlight like it was George's eyes sparkling as he looked down and saw my vineyards.

George and his store will be sorely missed.


----------



## joeswine (Nov 25, 2018)

With out a dought, missed, I to came over with the transition .
How many are part of that group are still here? Do you think?


----------



## Trevor7 (Nov 26, 2018)

Spoke with "Sophie" at Mosti last Friday. She has been receiving quite a few calls regarding purchasing their products. At present, she only suggested BrewCraft and Musto Grapes as possible retailers but she is aware that George moved a lot of product for them.


----------



## ras2018 (Nov 26, 2018)

I reached out to Mosti as well. I received a reply asking if I was a business or individual. Never heard back after my reply. Was planning on preordering a Meglioli but I’m not going to jump through hoops to do so. Crazy that FVW appears to have controlled nearly all of the online business for them?!


----------



## Oneo Teras (Dec 1, 2018)

Shocked and sorry to hear this news. I also came over from FVW and have bought wine kits exclusively from George for many years. Mosti product has produced many fine bottles for me.


----------



## bstnh1 (Dec 2, 2018)

As for the "slump" in the wine and beer home brewing business, I suspect it's not a temporary thing. I'm not sure what age groups are on these homebrew forums, but I doubt there's many millennials here. The younger generation with their demands for instant gratification isn't about to take the time to make their own beer or wine. In my neighborhood, most of them do next to nothing. They hire someone to mow the lawn, clean the house, plant shrubs, etc., etc. You never see them in the yard working or washing the car. Based on the number of takeout boxes I see by the curb, I even doubt many of them do much cooking. You certainly can't expect people with that mentality to have the ambition or patience to make their own wine. Well, I guess maybe they would ....... if you could do it by pushing a few buttons on a cell phone!


----------



## sour_grapes (Dec 2, 2018)

bstnh1 said:


> As for the "slump" in the wine and beer home brewing business, I suspect it's not a temporary thing. I'm not sure what age groups are on these homebrew forums, but I doubt there's many millennials here. The younger generation with their demands for instant gratification isn't about to take the time to make their own beer or wine. In my neighborhood, most of them do next to nothing. They hire someone to mow the lawn, clean the house, plant shrubs, etc., etc. You never see them in the yard working or washing the car. Based on the number of takeout boxes I see by the curb, I even doubt many of them do much cooking. You certainly can't expect people with that mentality to have the ambition or patience to make their own wine. Well, I guess maybe they would ....... if you could do it by pushing a few buttons on a cell phone!



OTOH, I certainly was not making wine when I was that age... (Of course, I was doing the other things you cite.)


----------



## joeswine (Dec 2, 2018)

I think that the pricing for the kits has a lot to do with it.
The Brew store here has a large following in beer making they use to have a wine making class ( use to).
They are moving for the 3rd time,costs are driving the factor, rent, product personal, shipping and the simple fact that it's easier to buy a bottle of wine than to put out the time and the effort to make it.
On the other hand the kit wine industry hasn't been helpful with there mandentory pricing.


----------



## Bleedaggie (Dec 2, 2018)

bstnh1 said:


> As for the "slump" in the wine and beer home brewing business, I suspect it's not a temporary thing. I'm not sure what age groups are on these homebrew forums, but I doubt there's many millennials here. The younger generation with their demands for instant gratification isn't about to take the time to make their own beer or wine. In my neighborhood, most of them do next to nothing. They hire someone to mow the lawn, clean the house, plant shrubs, etc., etc. You never see them in the yard working or washing the car. Based on the number of takeout boxes I see by the curb, I even doubt many of them do much cooking. You certainly can't expect people with that mentality to have the ambition or patience to make their own wine. Well, I guess maybe they would ....... if you could do it by pushing a few buttons on a cell phone!



You need some new neighbors. I’m about a year on the older side of millenials, technically. Many of the millennials I know work more hours than most of us - but at non traditional times and industries. 

I’m in North Texas and the home brew culture is strong with millenials. I don’t know about wine so much. But north Texas is more a beer culture than wine culture anyway.

Joe is right about the kit price. It’s almost impossible to get economical high quality grapes here, and the kits put the hobby out of reach for a lot of my friends. They can do country fruit wines, but not anything they’re going to be really proud of in wine circles. And if they’ve got the resources to make those kits, they’d rather spend it on good wine.


----------



## kyle5434 (Dec 2, 2018)

bstnh1 said:


> As for the "slump" in the wine and beer home brewing business, I suspect it's not a temporary thing. I'm not sure what age groups are on these homebrew forums, but I doubt there's many millennials here. The younger generation with their demands for instant gratification isn't about to take the time to make their own beer or wine. In my neighborhood, most of them do next to nothing. They hire someone to mow the lawn, clean the house, plant shrubs, etc., etc. You never see them in the yard working or washing the car. Based on the number of takeout boxes I see by the curb, I even doubt many of them do much cooking. You certainly can't expect people with that mentality to have the ambition or patience to make their own wine. Well, I guess maybe they would ....... if you could do it by pushing a few buttons on a cell phone!



I suspect there may be something to that. There's a definite "hipster" element in play for many folks - an over-arching concern with what's considered cool at the moment. Many want nicer, highly rated things (craft beer, bespoke coffee, even - perhaps - highly rated wines), but not if it takes much in the way of time or effort, and only to the degree that it increases their hipster cred. Look at the fall-off of Merlot sales after the release of the movie 'Sideways' for a sense in which appearance and acceptance are major forces in their lives.

I have a late-20's neighbor who lives with his mom. His dad passed away a few years before I moved in to my house (I'm guessing he would have been early 20s at that time), so I don't know the family dynamic then, but he does almost nothing in terms of yard/home care. He mows during the summer, but *never* on a weekend. No weeding, no shoveling snow, no routine maintenance of the outdoor a/c unit. Aside from mowing, I never see him outside the house except for coming/going to work on weekdays.

As a former youth worker for many, many years, I do know a few millennials who break that mold, but they're definitely in the minority. As a casual observer of economics, and history, I do believe that we're over-due for a significant economic downturn/reset, and I expect that such an event will affect millennials hardest in terms of quality-of-life expectations. But I also think that something like that - which would likely, ultimately, reset prices and foster more of a DIY ethic - could trigger a resurgence in the hobby.

On top of that, I think a general reset toward being satisfied with "good", rather than needing "the best", would help the spiritual health of many.


----------



## sour_grapes (Dec 2, 2018)

kyle5434 said:


> Look at the fall-off of Merlot sales after the release of the movie 'Sideways' for a sense in which appearance and acceptance are major forces in their lives.



  The oldest Millenials were not of drinking age when that movie came out. The youngest were still in diapers.


----------



## ibglowin (Dec 2, 2018)

Be interesting to compare wine kit sales US vs Canada. Canada pays for health care with a high sin tax on alcohol and cigarettes. No sin tax on a box of grape juice with a packet of yeast inside however.....


----------



## joeswine (Dec 2, 2018)

If you take a look at the wine thread Tweaking Cheap Wine Kits.
On this forum , it has a strong following.
If you look for the same subject on Google it's usually near the top.that shows me that there is a need for affordable kits for the beginner and 
For a decent everyday wine.
Even the moderate priced kits with help can make a good finished product, but you have to work at it.


----------



## kyle5434 (Dec 2, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> The oldest Millenials were not of drinking age when that movie came out. The youngest were still in diapers.



It's always tricky to precisely define the generations. Sideways came out in 2004. According to Wikipedia, "Millennials, also known as Generation Y or Gen Y, are the generational demographic cohort following Generation X and preceding Generation Z. There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

According to multiple studies, the "Sideways Effect" on Merlot sales has lasted multiple years, no doubt due in part to streaming. As an anecdotal example, there are still only a couple of small shelves for Merlot at my area Trader Joe's locations, where there was an entire section in the mid-2000s.

While this specific "Sideways Effect" is probably not limited to Millenials, I've known hundreds of them over the years, and the majority of them are _extremely_ beholden to popular/hipster values, and would rather not spend much time on DIY endeavors. So I stand by my assertion.


----------



## sour_grapes (Dec 2, 2018)

Have you tried yelling at them to get off your lawn?  BTW, if you look at the my post #34, I had provided a link to the Wiki definition of Millenials already, but thanks for citing its text. It buttresses my claim.

I'll just note that every generation values things differently than the previous generations. (Often, this is known by the sobriquet "progress." Surely you believe your values are superior to those of people in the mid-12th century, no?) Doubtless the generations before me thought that my generation's values were deficient. I am not arrogant enough to think that my baby-boomer values are the apotheosis of human development.


----------



## Stressbaby (Dec 2, 2018)

Seems like each generation thinks the younger generation lack some vital element of character/work ethic. 
Boomers aren't immune and in fact in the end may prove worse.


----------



## joeswine (Dec 2, 2018)

We're off track FW closing it's doors.


----------



## bstnh1 (Dec 3, 2018)

joeswine said:


> If you take a look at the wine thread Tweaking Cheap Wine Kits.
> On this forum , it has a strong following.
> If you look for the same subject on Google it's usually near the top.that shows me that there is a need for affordable kits for the beginner and
> For a decent everyday wine.
> Even the moderate priced kits with help can make a good finished product, but you have to work at it.



I don't really think the overall cost of a kit is a deciding factor as to why some people don't take up the hobby. No matter how you look at it, you can make your own good quality wine for less than you can buy it at the store. I think it's more that people today want instant gratification. And sitting around waiting for a kit wine to finish and then aging it for months or years is just too much.


----------



## Stressbaby (Dec 3, 2018)

Google Trends offers some insight. Strongly suggests that a drop off in interest dates back more than one year - more like 10+ years.

Shown below is 5 year data on Google searches for "wine kit," and "winemaking," and one other related search (can't recall, I didn't label it, but it is the top graph). It doesn't take the addition of a trend line (dotted) to see that the 5-year trend is down. In fact, the trend has been downward for the past 14 years. Contrast that with searches for "wine" where pretty clearly the trend for the past 10 years is up. 

But blaming this on lazy millennials is unfair. It could just as easily be lazy baby boomers. And as attractive as the "instant gratification" theory might be, it strikes me as too simplistic. There are alternative hypotheses. For example, maybe the price, variety, quality, and consistency of commercial wines has improved, essentially increasing the "delta" between what one can afford and what one could make. In that case, the rational value judgment will be to buy rather than make. That's not lazy, that's smart.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Dec 3, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> But blaming this on lazy millennials is unfair. It could just as easily be lazy baby boomers. And as attractive as the "instant gratification" theory might be, it strikes me as too simplistic. There are alternative hypotheses. For example, maybe the price, variety, quality, and consistency of commercial wines has improved, essentially increasing the "delta" between what one can afford and what one could make. In that case, the rational value judgment will be to buy rather than make. That's not lazy, that's smart.



Likely a combination of all these things. Boomers are retiring and perhaps no longer making wine as a hobby or to supply the family. Changes/improvements in what is available commercially create less of a desire to make wine for one's self. As a result, the next generation isn't taking the reins (except @Ajmassa5983 )


----------



## TXWineDuo (Dec 9, 2018)

We will definitely miss George too, he was very helpful over the past 5 years with our winemaking endeavor. He was instrumental in getting us into making wine from fresh California grapes and like some of y'all up in the Northeast we too have lost are only source of grapes. We hope that someone or group will pick up the tradition of providing fresh grapes for us North Texas home winemakers.

TXWineDuo


----------



## heatherd (Dec 10, 2018)

I posted this under another thread but wanted to also share here:

Musto has Mosti http://www.juicegrape.com/categories/Winemaking_Kits They have Mosti kits and the big grape pack, and Meglioli kits. I get a lot of my supplies from them, too. They have some kits I haven't tried yet like Village Vintner.

Morewine has cellarcraft, rjs, winexpert and everything other than Mosti: https://morewinemaking.com/category/cellar-craft-wine-kits.html?page=all

I also buy lots of stuff from Midwest supplies: https://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine-recipe-kits 

Keystone has WE and RJS: http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/shop/wine/ingredient-kits.html Their en premeur w/skins are $150-170 and they have 255 kits.

For fresh grapes and juice, I have made the shift to frozen when I can't get stuff in season.

Winegrapes Direct has some tempting stuff anywhere from $135 - $250 for 5 gallons of white juice or red must. http://winegrapesdirect.com/ 

Presque Isle ships fresh Australian juice: https://www.piwine.com/order-australian-juice-for-wine-making.html 

Brehm is also a good source of frozen must: https://www.brehmvineyards.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/BV-Current_Inventory.pdf 

Keystone has frozen must from Vino Superiori: http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/vino-superiore/


----------

