# Amarone



## MrWino

I am going to make Amarone from juice, not a kit. Does anybody have any information about additives for the wine? A friend makes his from a kit and he said there is a lot of oak, juice packs etc. that goes into it. I have read about adding raisins for flavor. Would raisins be a good idea and if so what type and how much?


----------



## robie

Many Amarone kits do come with lots of oak and either a raisin pack or a grape pack (sometimes both).

Amarone is one wine that does very well with raisins added. For a 6 gallon batch, try to find organic raisins if possible. If not, be sure to rinse the sulfites off ordinary, non-organic raisins. Use a full pound either way. You don't really have to split the raisins but you can.

Joe of Joeswines recommends adding the raisins during secondary after the SG has gone below about 1.010 and still not yet dry. Maybe he will come on and add his expertise, as he really knows Amarones. 

Oak can be added during fermentation and/or during clearing. Again we need Joe for this. He has his own ideas about when to oak.

Good luck and let us know how everything goes with this wine.


----------



## Pumpkinman

MrWino,
I'm in the process of making 2 batches of Amarone from Juice pails, I highly recommend the following:

* Yeast -71B-1122, this really brings out a nice fruitiness, while still holding onto the Amarone characteristics, or BM45 or BM4x4 for a more traditional Amarone.

* Oak Spiral Sticks - Purchase 2, one package of medium toast, and one Medium Plus, both french or Hungarian if you can find the Hungarian. - the spirals give you more control over the amount of oak imparted into the wine. I added one during Fermentation and one while aging, if you have an oak barrel it is better yet.

*Malolactic Bacteria - I highly recommend VP41 or Lalvin 31, these are both commercial grade, or Lalvin Bacchus if these are not available.

* Don't add raisins to this, I would recommend instead, contacting M&M Wine Grape Co. http://www.juicegrape.com/ and purchasing an "All Grape" grape skin pack, it is just under 9 lbs and fairly cheap, $19.99, this is a much better choice to add body and mouth feel. 

Remember, you are not making a kit, years ago kits were supplied with raisins, but due to imparting an oxidized taste to the wine, they now provide grape skin packs instead. 

Adding Raisins after the primary, or Alcoholic fermentation adds more sugar and starts the primary fermentation again, this can lead to increased H2s because the yeast has already used the nutrients, plus, at this stage the yeast is at the end of its life cycle, this extra nutrient can then become food for spoilage organisms, just to name a few reasons why you shouldn't add raisins to your wine.

Adding MLB and raisins together does increase your risk to, there is a potential for increased levels of Volatile acidity and the MLB also increases the likelihood your raisin sugar ferment will get stuck , again introducing all the problems with that. This is even more likely given your spent and weak yeast population. 

This info is directly from an expert wine maker, with years of experience working in wineries all over the world.

Tom


----------



## MrWino

Thanks for the information. When do you add the juice pack?


----------



## MrWino

Pumpkinman
DO you have a recipe for your Imperial Irish Red Ale that you can share?


----------



## Pumpkinman

I added the grape skins after I pitched the yeast, a tip for you: buy a large muslin bag like the ones used to make beer, put the grape skins in the bag and leave a lot of room, don't tie it tight, this will ensure more surface contact with the skins, and the muslin bag make it much easier to rack afterwards.
Absolutely on the Imperial Irish Ale Recipe, shoot me a message and I'll give it to you. I'm making a Sam Adams Octoberfest Clone today, cant wait!


----------



## robie

MrWino said:


> Thanks for the information. When do you add the juice pack?



Are you asking about a grape pack?


----------



## joeswine

*Look at the process*

*Amarone*






 


Two bottles of Amarone.


*Amarone della Valpolicella*, usually known as *Amarone*, is a typically rich Italian dry red wine made from the partially dried grapes of the Corvina (40% – 70%), Rondinella (20% – 40%) and Molinara (5% – 25%) varieties. The wine was assigned Denominazione di Origine Controllata (DOC) status in December 1990. On 4 December 2009, Amarone and Recioto della Valpolicella were promoted to the status of Denominazione di Origine Controllata e Garantita (DOCG). Total production for sale (including Recioto) in 2008 was 8.57 million bottles.[1] The name _Amarone_, in Italian, literally means "the Great Bitter"; this was originally to distinguish it from the Recioto produced in the same region, which is sweeter in taste.




*Process[*

Grapes are harvested ripe in the first two weeks of October, by carefully choosing bunches having fruits not too close to each other, to let the air flow. Grapes are allowed to dry, traditionally on straw mats. This process is called _appassimento_ or _rasinate_ (to dry and shrivel) in Italian. This concentrates the remaining sugars and flavours and is similar to the production of French Vin de Paille. The pomace left over from pressing off the Amarone is used in the production of Ripasso Valpolicellas.
Modern Amarone is now produced in special drying chambers under controlled conditions. This approach minimizes the amount of handling of the grapes and helps prevent the onset of _Botrytis cinerea_. In Amarone, the quality of the grape skin is a primary concern as that component brings the tannins, color and intensity of flavor to the wine. The process of desiccation not only concentrates the juices within the grape but also increases the skin contact of the grapes. The drying process further metabolizes the acids within the grape and creates a polymerization of the tannins in the skin which contribute to the overall balance of the finished wine.[2]
The length of the drying process is typically 120 days but varies according to producer and the quality of the harvest. The most evident consequence of this process is the loss of weight: 35 to 45% for Corvina grapes, 30 to 40% for Molinara and 27 to 40% for Rondinella. Following drying, end of January/beginning of February, the grapes are crushed and go through a dry low temperature fermentation process which can last up to 30/50 days. The reduced water content can slow down the fermentation process, increasing the risk of spoilage and potential wine faults such as high volatile acidity. After fermentation, the wine is then aged in barriques made from either French, Slovenian or Slavonian oak.[2]
*Variations*

If fermentation is stopped early, the resulting wine will contain residual sugar (more than 4 grams of sugar per litre) and produce a sweeter wine known as Recioto della Valpolicella. Recioto was the traditional wine produced according to this method, and Amarone originally was Recioto wines that had fermented for too long. Unlike Amarone, Recioto della Valpolicella can also be used to produce a sparkling wine. [3] Ripasso is an Italian wine produced when the partially aged Valpolicella is contacted with the pomace of the Amarone. This will typically take place in the spring following the harvest. The resulting wine is more tannic, with a deeper color, more alcohol and more extract. The word _Ripasso_ designates both the winemaking technique and the wine, and is usually found on a wine label.[3]
*Characteristics and faults*

The final result is a very ripe, raisiny, full-bodied wine with very little acid. Alcohol content easily surpasses 15% (the legal minimum is 14%) and the resulting wine is rarely released until five years after the vintage, even though this is not a legal requirement. The labor intensive process poses significant risk for the development of various wine faults. Wet and rainy weather during harvest can cause the grapes to rot before drying out which then requires winemakers to be diligent in removing rotted bunches, which can cause moldy flavors in the wine.[4]

NOW THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THE PROCESS, WHAT DO YOU THINK,THE RAISINS GO INTO THE SECONDARY ,THATS IF YOU CHOSE TO USE RAISINS, I DO AND I'll PUT MINE UP AGAINST ANY Commercial OR OTHER AMARONE OUT THERE,WE NEED TO IMPROVISE AND MAKE USE OF WHAT'S AT OUR DISPOSAL,THAT'S WHAT WINE MAKINGS ALL ABOUT,AS FOR THE MANUFACTURES,THEY IN THE LONG RUN LEARN FROM US, BY SALES VOLUME,AND FROM FEED BACK, AND ERROR,YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN POWDERED OAK IN THE DISTANT PAST, YET ALONE GRAPE SKINS IN A KIT,AND I STILL DON'T SEE HOW GRAPE SKINS WORK.
USED? CAN'T IN PART ANY USEFULNESS INTO THE WINE OTHER THAN COLOR,BUT THAT'S JUST MY OPPION.YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHERE DID THEY COME FROM AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INSIDE?AFTER ALL THEY ARE DEHYDRATED .THE VOLUME OF SOLIDS IN FRESH JUICE ISN'T WHAT IT USE TO BE,AND SO WE AUGMENT AND CREATE THIS AND THAT TO ENHANCE THE FINAL PRODUCT, I THINK ,THINKING OUT SIDE THE BOX IS WHAT GOOD WINE MAKERS DO ALL THE TIME AND THE WINERIES I'm AFFILIATED WITH TRY THEIR BEST TO OVER COME MANY OBSTACLE'S,WELL i'LL GET OF MY SOAP BOX NOW SORRY FOR THE RANTING,JUST AN OLD WINO WITH THOUGHTS....


----------



## Pumpkinman

The grape skins arent used joe.....lol they are crushed and packaged.
I love how passionate we get as wine makers.


----------



## joeswine

?if not used were are their insides?


----------



## Pumpkinman

Joe,
Not only are there grape skins in this particular "All Grape" pack, there was pulp, and even a leaf and twig, I was fairly surprised!.
Joe, we can go back and forth and have a daily "who's idea is best" match, but that's not what I'm doing, I'm not going to post in all caps to try to get my point across either.

Relax big guy, I'm not saying that you do not know what you are doing, we all know that you can make some amazing wines, we all know that you have gone outside the box to tweak kits, making them unbelievable, anyone that has tasted you Amarone will admit that it was an amazing bottle of wine... but seriously, when you post something like this:



> I'll PUT MINE UP AGAINST ANY Commercial OR OTHER AMARONE OUT THERE


No need to brag, that is not what I thought that you were here for, I thought that you were trying to help people, to be honest, when I lived in Italy, I tasted some Amarone that would have curled your socks...LOL
Joe, you've obviously helped numerous winemakers, no need to go there.

Anyway, I merely posted these facts:



*Years ago kits were supplied with raisins, but due to imparting an oxidized taste to the wine, they now provide grape skin packs instead. - is this a lie -NO*
*Raisins are oxidized - is that a lie? NO*
*Adding Raisins after the primary, or Alcoholic fermentation adds more sugar and starts the primary fermentation again - is that a lie - NO*
*This can lead to increased H2s because the yeast has already used the nutrients - is this a lie - NO*
A*dding Raisins (to the secondary) at this stage the yeast is at the end of its life cycle, this extra nutrient can then become food for spoilage organisms - is this a lie - NO*

I would be very curious to see if you made the same Kit, added everything except the raisins, if the kit would come out the same, would aging it for the same two or more years that you aged the bottle that you sent me render the same great bottle that I tasted?

Joe, adding raisins may work, but much like you post about MLF and it being tricky for the new winemakers, I feel that the same goes for adding raisins, if it isn't monitored, you could get some negative and unwanted results.

Joe, I respect what you do, and the effort that you put into helping others, I don't see why you are taking this so personally.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Joe, I think everyone would love to see you do a Juice bucket this fall from Italian Juice! Yes, I am going to keep repeating it until it happens. I cant wait to see the process!


----------



## joeswine

*Ok*

ACTUALLY CAPS ARE SO I can see the wording better I have a problem with my sight and my editor profile which helps correct the fault,, that's why caps, I m not shouting as they say, just seeing better,. at my end.

look we all do our on thing to the end result, I don't always agree with the status quo,and that's me, but we can always agree to disagree and still be partners in wine making ,right,pumpkinman


----------



## Pumpkinman

Joe, I have no ill will towards you, nor have I ever, if you read my posts, I never say "don't do what Joe says", I gave my best advice.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Pumpkin. Can you post your process for making amarone?


----------



## Pumpkinman

Shawn, I really don't want to add any more fuel to this thread, and I really hope that this isn't the reason for asking, but here it is:
It is a very easy process, I start from Italian juice buckets. 
Check my levels.
I use 71B- 1122, or BM45 for a more traditional /commercial Amarone.
I add oak spiral to the fermenting bucket and ferment to dry.
I rack to a glass carboy and add MLB. 
Once MLF is finished I stabilize with meta and rack once more. 
At this point I let it age, checking the sulfite kevel every 2 or 3 months
This season I purchased oak barrels from Vadai, both batches currently reside in 2 of the barrels, and will do so for 4 - 6 months. 
At this point I plan on tasting and deciding on if I will put them back into carboys or bottles and aged another 6 months before attacking them.


----------



## geek

Tom,

Where are you getting that MLB?


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Tom, not the reason for asking. I will be getting Italian juice (amarone) buckets this fall. It will be the first time with Amarone juice. I want to see what people are doing to make it. Thanks for posting ............Cheers!


----------



## geek

I am also looking to make this varietal this fall, never made it before and actually not sure how it tastes like but hear so many people liking it that I want to try.........


----------



## Pumpkinman

Shawn, my apologies, if I can help you in any other way, please don't hesitate to ask.
I purchased the MLB from morewine.com. 
Varis, this wine is amazing!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Thanks Tom...I have made CC amarone, Heron Bay Amarone, Mosti Megioli amarone kits but never fresh juice


----------



## Pumpkinman

Very cool!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Tom.......Brew and Hobby. Do you know if they are going to get anymore grape packs. Looks like they only have Shiraz left. They are out of Cab. Sav and Merlot


----------



## Bartman

I'm about to start my first Amarone kit. Made lots of kit wines, but was always a little afraid to tackle the 'Amarone challenge'. LOL. When I went by FineVineWines store, I talked to George about which kits made good Amarone, and whaddya know? He said he had recently been getting very positive reviews/comments about Mosti's Vinifera Noble Amarone - yeah, the 10L, cheap one! Which was also on special last month, so it may cost me a grand total of about $2.25/bottle when I am all done. 
I will be adding some cheap-o california raisins, mainly to add mouthfeel, a little sugar, and some body, and only incidentally because of the raisins ordinarily used to make Amarone. I plan on bulk-aging it for about 6 months, so it should be ready to bottle around April. I am not sure what yeast is included with the kit, but I assume EC1118, which I would replace with RC212 or what Pumpkinman suggested if I thought it would have a significant effect on a 10L kit (which I doubt).


----------



## Pumpkinman

Shawn, I don't believe that brew and wine hobby will be getting more soon. I'd give M&M wine grape a call and order one of their "allgrape" packs, you literally will get almost double for 5 dollars less.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Thank you ... Tom


----------



## GaDawg

ShawnDTurner said:


> Thanks Tom...I have made CC amarone, Heron Bay Amarone, Mosti Megioli amarone kits but never fresh juice



Which was your favorite?


----------



## ShawnDTurner

I have tried the Heron Bay, it was not as full bodied but showed varietal characteristics not as full body as you would expect from a classico. I would have loved to make this again and used a grape pack. The aroma takes your breathe away!

It had a small raisin pack with it. I made it about 4 years ago. I had one about 2 years ago. I think I have 25 left. I need to try it again. 

The cc is about 2 years old I tried a half bottle about year ago. Aroma, body and finish stylistic to commercial. Out of the gate very nice, I am sure it is much better now. 

MM megioli is bulk aging will do so for a couple of years before bottle. My early impression is this will be a great wine but it will take awhile to get there. This will not be a quick turnaround wine. I plan to bottle and put away for awhile. Cheers


----------



## Bibelljim

*amarone juice*

Hello everyone,

I am kind of a newbee at this... Where does one buy fresh juice?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## TomK-B

Here are a couple of places, Jimmy:

http://morewinemaking.com/

http://www.juicegrape.com/default.aspx


----------



## tonyt

Bartman said:


> I'm about to start my first Amarone kit. Made lots of kit wines, but was always a little afraid to tackle the 'Amarone challenge'. LOL. When I went by FineVineWines store, I talked to George about which kits made good Amarone, and whaddya know? He said he had recently been getting very positive reviews/comments about Mosti's Vinifera Noble Amarone - yeah, the 10L, cheap one! Which was also on special last month, so it may cost me a grand total of about $2.25/bottle when I am all done.
> I will be adding some cheap-o california raisins, mainly to add mouthfeel, a little sugar, and some body, and only incidentally because of the raisins ordinarily used to make Amarone. I plan on bulk-aging it for about 6 months, so it should be ready to bottle around April. I am not sure what yeast is included with the kit, but I assume EC1118, which I would replace with RC212 or what Pumpkinman suggested if I thought it would have a significant effect on a 10L kit (which I doubt).


How about an update Bart.


----------



## Bartman

Not much to report yet (it's still bulk-aging). I have not bottled my MM V-N Amarone kit yet, but will do so in the next couple weeks, and will update again then. I'm not one to sample at different stages, trusting that it will turn out fine regardless (I know, I know, I'm weird that way), so I can't tell you much. It seems to be ok so far, not too thin, which is my biggest pet peeve about kit wines.


----------



## Bartman

Bottled this Amarone in early April - I have had a couple bottles now, but wanted to compare a couple bottles or so before updating The first one was pretty green/young, but it has come along nicely in the short time is has bottle-aged.

This VN kit is a still a little on the thin side for my taste but other people tasting it haven't noticed that as an issue. This was my first time to make this kit, so I don't have a basis for comparison. I think the the raisins add some body and the tannins I added smooth it out somewhat. It has a nice finish, not very long, but adequate. Pretty smooth overall, a pretty good sipping wine by itself.

I guess I expected it to be a little richer, more tannin/structure, but then again it is a cheap kit, highly concentrated. With everything added, I spent about $75 on this wine and it made 29 bottles. I held back just a little bit of water when I started it (to avoid a too-thin taste), but it was pretty close to 23 liters of must.


----------



## roger80465

I have done this kit a couple times. First I followed instructions completely with the oak in secondary. I found this to be too oaky for my taste. This time I put the oak in primary, added a pound of raisins in primary, and 4 tablespoons taking to secondary. Much happier with the results. Fuller body, decent oak, a hint of sweetness. It is about 8 months since pitching yeast so it should improve with age. I'll definitely do that again.


----------



## MrWino

I will be bottling 2 carboys of Amarone in September. This is the first time I made Amarone. I used Italian juice along with a grape pack and a lot of french oak. The last time I racked it I had to have a little taste and it sure was good. A friend of mine has made it from kits and it always turned out very good. I don't know which brand the kits were but I think it cost him about $150.00 per kit.


----------



## davedonofrio

What would be the brix of the dried grapes? If 30-40% of the water weight is lost in the drying process, I would think the brix would be 34%. That is going to yield a whole lot of alcohol at the end of fermentation, much greater than 15%. I would like to try the making an Amarone style wine, but don't know at what brix to let the grapes dry to.


----------



## geocanary

I have made 4 wine kits over the past year and they have all turned out really well. My question is I'm getting ready to make another En Premiur wine kit Amarone Classico and I'm wondering if I can add a bourbon soaked oak chips during the bulk aging. Has anyone done this before? When do you add the chips, how much and for how long? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## cmason1957

geocanary said:


> I have made 4 wine kits over the past year and they have all turned out really well. My question is I'm getting ready to make another En Premiur wine kit Amarone Classico and I'm wondering if I can add a bourbon soaked oak chips during the bulk aging. Has anyone done this before? When do you add the chips, how much and for how long? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.


Is your kit, if course you can add whatever you want. I think if it were me, I would soak about 3-4 Oz of a med cubes and add them after it got moved to a carboy. Probably leave it in for 4-6 weeks or so. Might go a bit less on the amount.


----------



## joeswine

Not the correct profile dried grapes or rasins in concert with each other heavy tannins, good Abv.around 14/15 %
And pleanty of time to age


----------



## porkchopmessiah

Hey...earlier in this thread there was mention of buying grape skins..I poked around a bit and haven't been able to find...I've been pondering the fact that I'm doing juice pails which are lacking skins, so may lack tannins..any insight?


----------



## gabe

Joe/pumkinman: you both need to chill & have a glass of Amarone. Obviously you’ve both made great amarones. However you’ve come across like,(“it’s my way or the highway”).My hats off to both of you because this is the drink of Royalty. I’ve been making my own since my first complementary bottle Atlantic City back in the 80’s. Made it from most exspensive kits($200.) & less exspensive. I do juice because this is my choice. I would Recommend to others trying out both ways, grape packs/raisins in different batches.


----------



## joeswine

Check the M @M wine site I get them rrom there.


----------



## joeycannoli

Pumkinman - I saw that you rack before MLF. I have read that it is beneficial for the MLF process if conducted with the gross lees present. Any opinion on this? Anyone else have any insight?


----------



## baron4406

My Amarone kit I made earlier this year had a grape pack, plus I added a pound of organic raisins to the primary and did a 9 week EM on both of them. <running for cover>


----------



## jgmann67

baron4406 said:


> My Amarone kit I made earlier this year had a grape pack, plus I added a pound of organic raisins to the primary and did a 9 week EM on both of them. <running for cover>



Mmmmmmmmm... raisiny goodness.


----------

