# Stirring Lees, Oak, and MLF



## Millzy64 (Oct 16, 2008)

Okay, I'll try to keep this brief but my questions is kind of complicated. I have6 gallons of chardonnay in a 6 gallon carboy. It was made from grapes and the primary fermentation went great. Racked it at about 1.00 sg and added the MLF cultures.

I did a ton of reading on this and after sifting through all the conflicting info, I decided not to add any Campden tabs, etc until after the MLF has done it's thing. This juice is raw other than the yeast (D47) and now I don't want to add any and risk stopping the MLF before it has a chance to finish it's magic. The MLF package said it can take 1-3 months.

After about a week in the secondary, I couldn't help but to sneak a taste. It tasted great for being so early in the process. It even seemed like the MLF was already doing it's work.

A week later, after much reading on the topic I decided to give the lees a stir. About 4 days after that most of it had settled so I took another taste. At this point it had a strong eggy, acidic smell and it tasted pretty much the same. I panicked thinking I ruined the batch but waited another couple of days and realized that by stirring it must have released allot of S02 from the lees, much of which was still suspended in the carboy. 

At this point (now about 2 weeks into secondary) I added my oak chips (3 oz) and I'm just hoping it will all settle out with time. 

If anyone has any experience with Chard, I could sure use some advice.

1. Should I rack again to reduce the lees soon?
2. Should I continue stirring occasionally or just let it sit?
3. How will I know when the MLF is finished? Will it stop bubbling all together?
4. Should I wait until the MLF is finished before adding and Campton tabs?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. There is so much conflicting information on this MLF process and the whole stirring on "big" lees or "fine" lees that I'm really confused. I just don't want to ruin my first batch of wine.

Thanks for reading!

Bob


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## JWMINNESOTA (Oct 16, 2008)

Bob, I am no expert by any means, but I have done MLF on a wine.While my understanding is most white wines dont require it, since you have started it I highly recommend you get a test kit to monitor the Malic acid . Once you get to around &gt;30 it is done. You could confirm it by measuring Lactic acid, it will increase during this process. Do wait until it is done to add any Sulfite's. As for stirring the lees in a Chard, I would think its O.K. to do (Battanoge) if you want a buttery chard. Good article on that on the homepage under Resources- Featured Articles-Buttery Chardonnay. The difference here is your dealing with grapes, not a kit, Appleman would probably be the go to guy for the right answers to all your questions. *Edited by: JWMINNESOTA *


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## grapeman (Oct 16, 2008)

Like you say Millzy there is a ton of conflicting information out there on this process like all other aspects of making wine. Personally I wouldn't open the carboy to stir it. The battonage method of stirring is generally done with sulfited wine that has some protection. Like you not, when doing MLF you need to keep sulfites low. What I prefer to do is kind of rock or roll the carboy around the bottom edge on a padded surface- even an old towel or rug will do. This just stirs the lees up a bit helping to feed the MLF bacteria. Like JW say the only way to know if it has completed is some sort of test for malic acid- when it is gone, you are done. You can get an Accuvin test from George that works good.


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## Millzy64 (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice guys. I did purchase a kit and it was only about 30% done so far (the MLF). I put a small space heater near the carboy since my basement is getting cooler. It's maintaining tha air around it at 68-70 now and it started bubbling lightly again.

My real concern at this point is the smell of the wine. My wife says it smells like a swamp. I kind of smell that along with burnt matches. I'm worried since it has not bee treated with any Campton tabs or anything at this point and perhaps there's some nasty bacteria growing along side the MLF cultures. I have a small beer bottle full of the chard that was not treated with the MLF that I've been using to top it off. This sample is very clear now with almost no lees at the bottom and it tastes fine. My conclusion here is it's either the lees or the MLF causing this reaction in the carboy, or, the smaller sample has just "aged" faster than the 6 gallon carboy. I'm really worried.

Should I rack again and get it off the lees at this point until the MLF is done or should I just go ahead and kill everything with some tabs to try and get that nasty smell taken care of? I hate to abandon the MLF but I don't want to ruin the wine. I read somewhere that a swampy smell is a temporary stage in white wine development but I'm not so sure. It's pretty strong.

Any suggestions?


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## grapeman (Oct 23, 2008)

That's a tough call and a decision you alone will have to make. MLF is best done at temps about 75 degrees. It should only be done with fine lees not gross lees or you can get hydrogen sulfide. Did you give the bacteria any feed or are you using the lees alone? I think if I had two three gallon carboys, I would try racking one now and adding campdens and if the smell persists, treat it for that. The other I would let it run to completions and then sulfite. Then you would have the two batches to compare and see what you like better.


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## Millzy64 (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks to all the wine gurus here at finewines. I have an update and, yes, another question or two. The smell was H2S. I brought a sample to my local wine supplier to confirm and to purchase some copper sulfate. I'm glad I did. They told me to simply rack into my primary and stir the wine with some copper tubing rather than pour in the poisonous additive. The amazing thing is it worked! The smell was completely gone in a matter of 20 minutes. I added some MLF nutrient (that wasn't moving either) and now, at last, the MLF is done. Now, onto my questions. Since my wine has never seen any S02 at all, I now want to rack and innoculate it to avoid any further problems. From what I've found on the web it seems I should add 5 Campten tablets to my 5 gallons. Does that sound correct? I also have some medium toast french oak cubes I want to pitch when I rack and add the S02. There seems to be allot of conflicting opinions about the cubes. Should I boil, steam, soak in some S02, or just pitch the things? Thanks again for all your help so far and for any advice you can offer.


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## Wade E (Nov 18, 2008)

What do you mean by inoculate. Im pretty sure what you mean is just to sulfate it and if so 5 campdens crushed is fine just make sure you crush them very good and stir it in well as these tablets have a filler that holds them together and likes to leave little floaties on top of the wine. As far as Cubes I would just toss them in but there are always other opinions. You could pull some wine out and dissolve the campden in that and soak the cubes in that also.


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## grapeman (Nov 18, 2008)

I prefer powdered potassium metabisulfate (k-meta). A quarter teaspoon or just a bit more would give you the protection you need. You can use the Campdens, but like Wade says they can cause floaties in the wine. The powder doesn't. Either is cheap enough. I would also add the oak as is. Wood itself doesn't harbor bacteria and actueally impedes it's growth. I would leave the oak in a few weeks and check it to see if it was to taste yet.


Good call by your LHBS. Copper pipe well cleaned or even a piece of copper pipe works well and is definely safer than the copper sulfate powder.


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## Wade E (Nov 18, 2008)

Appleman must be hitting his stash but meant to type wire also works.


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## Millzy64 (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks all. I actually used a piece of left over copper flashing from a project I did a while back. I knew it would come in handy some day. Just didn't ever think it would be wine making that I'd use it for! I guess inoculate was the wrong term there, but I'll go the tablet route since I have them on hand. I'm going to filter in the end anyway so I'm not too concerned with a few floaters. Okay....off to rack. Thank you again for all the great (and fast) advice!


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## Wade E (Nov 18, 2008)

You are so welcome and hope your next wines dont give you as much trouble but good thing is what you have learned from this and can teach others.


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## Millzy64 (Nov 18, 2008)

Hey Wade, Middlebury? I just noticed that. I'm just down the road in Beacon Falls. Small world eh? I'll have to run you a bottle if I ever finish this batch!


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## grapeman (Nov 18, 2008)

wade said:


> Appleman must be hitting his stash but meant to type wire also works.




Sorry I didn't answer sooner. I was off hitting my stash! Yeah I did mean wire! Sorry I was a bit lightheaded after my time on the treadmill.


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## Wade E (Nov 18, 2008)

Very Cool Millzy, we will have to exchange wines. PM me if you ever have some free time and you are welcome to come on over and taste some wines as I have a pretty extensive collection built up. Where do you work? I work at a stair company in Shelton. Feel free to PM or email me so we can get together.


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## Millzy64 (Jan 31, 2009)

Wow, speaking of not answering sooner. Sorry, but I had a BAD computer virus back in December and had to reformat the HD. I haven't spent much time online since recovering the machine a few weeks ago. I'm happy to report the chardonnay is DONE! After taking care of the H2S I re-oaked and let it sit a while. Then I cold stabilized and then fined it with Bentonite. Racked again and added a little more oak. About a 2 weeks ago I decided to filter and bottle. With just a little back sweetening (the alchohol on this stuff is around 14.5%) it actually came out pretty good! Now to just let it bottle age for a while.

Thanks so much to everyone that helped me along with this batch. It would not have survived without your valuable input.


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## frankr3 (Jun 22, 2009)

bob
after pressing any grapes, it should sit for 24-48 hours and you must rack it off the heavy lees or you will get the smelly results.
after you add the mlf, you are supposed to stir the light less each day for the first week, then stop after that.
The only way to test the completion of the mlf is to perform a chromotography test. entire kit costs $55, but you can perform 20-30 tests with the kit. check it out on more wine. easy to do.
once mlf is done rack wine off lees and then add sulfite (camden)
avoid splashing and multiple rackings with white wines. it is very prone to oxidation. keep up your sulfite levels by testing.
good luck


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