# Sur Lie and Bâttonage



## winemaker81 (Mar 19, 2022)

@balatonwine prompted me to start a new thread regarding sur lie and bâttonage.

Sur lie is French for “on the lees", and refers to aging white and red wines on the fine lees, which is yeast hulls. This differs from gross lees, which is mostly fruit solids.

The process is simple -- don't rack off the fine lees. Couldn't be simpler, right? This can be done with most whites, excluding the really fruity ones, as it will produce a yeasty or nutty flavors. It also increases mouthfeel, body, and aromatic complexity. It's done with full-bodied reds to increase mouthfeel and stabilize color.

I got the above information from WineMakerMag.com, and I've seen similar definitions on other sites so I have confidence the article is accurate.

Sur Lie Aging & Bâttonage - WineMakerMag.com 

Bâttonage is stirring the lees, essentially an added step to sur lie. Again, simple to do -- stir the fine lees back into suspension.

I'm not doing the bâttonage correctly, as the article says the stirring may be perform daily during early stages of aging, and weekly after that. I use a drill-mounted stirring rod to gently stir my reds in barrel every 3 to 4 weeks, when I top them up. I started the stirring as my barrels are neutral and I use oak cubes for flavoring, and stirring mixes the wine so taste tests reflect the wine as a whole. I discovered that wine does not have convection currents so the wine nearest the cubes is heavily oaked. Stirring homogenizes the wine.

I also note that my wines have a LOT less fine lees than the pictures I've seen, so I expect my technique is not as effective. However, it's saving me unnecessary rackings so there is value.

Note that I stop the stirring 2 months before draining the barrel, to let the lees settle out.


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## balatonwine (Mar 19, 2022)

Excellent topic.

I am still trying to figure out the method of stirring the lees. So much art there it seems. So appreciate any input and experience, experiments from others.

I just racked some of my amber wine, and the clear racking got racked into a different barrels than the lees racking at the bottom.

After just three days of settling the two racking had a very different aroma and flavor profile. Amazing. I was very impressed with the lees (bottom of the barrel) racking which was very cloudy but cleared in a few days. The stirring of yeast is maybe very, very under appreciated. And I know, for one, I admit I am a bit clueless, and *I do not know how to optimize it*. 

It may take decades to get it right. Or maybe the "hive mind" of experience here can cut that time short. I hope it might.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 19, 2022)

@balatonwine, thanks for the example.

I expect the hive mind will develop ideas. I suspect this is not that difficult, _once we understand the ramifications_.

One of the difficulties is ensuring we fully identify the differences between gross and fine lees. The explanation is simple (fruit solids vs. yeast hulls), but clearly identifying which is which may not be easy. Or maybe it is, and we just don't know it.


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 19, 2022)

Interesting topic! I found this article a while back which has some good information on what happens during sur lie aging/battonage. Also some perspectives from various (mainly French) winemakers on how often to stir (if at all).

I made a 2021 pinot noir and stirred the lees a couple of times during ML. I was planning to do it some more during elevage, but have held off; the wine already tastes great and I don't want to mess with success as they say.


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## Raptor99 (Mar 19, 2022)

I am interested in this as well. In practice, when there is 1/2" or less fine lees in a 1-gallon jug I do not bother to rack it until I am ready to bottle. So maybe I have been practicing sur lie all along! But I have not been stirring it, so maybe I need to add bâttonage.

@BarrelMonkey Very helpful article! One thing stands out to me: only practice sur lie if the fine lees are healthy. Aroma and taste are the most important clues for that. I usually taste the lees after racking. If the taste is good with no off odors or flavors, then the lees are healthy.


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## Obbnw (Mar 20, 2022)

Thanks for initial posting and additional links.

I've been wondering about the effectiveness of oak chips if they are just sitting on the bottom covered by lees. Most of my batches are unoaked and the ones I have oaked don't seem much different. Not sure if the lack of change is just my lack of pallate sensitivity, not enough chips, not enough time or the chips just getting covered by the lees.

Maybe next time I'll try stirring...


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## winemaker81 (Mar 20, 2022)

Obbnw said:


> Not sure if the lack of change is just my lack of pallate sensitivity, not enough chips, not enough time or the chips just getting covered by the lees.


What amount of chips, what volume of wine, and how long are you aging?

At this time, I have no idea how much lees covering the oak affects absorption by the wine, and suspect that the depth of the lees and the density of the lees matters.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 20, 2022)

I’m thinking robotic fish with a bag of oak chips tied on its tail


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## winemaker81 (Mar 20, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> I’m thinking robotic fish with a bag of oak chips tied on its tail


This eliminates the need to manually stir ....


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## vinny (Mar 20, 2022)

Good timing. This has been something I have been pondering. I am 2 weeks away from my 'ready' date on the Shiraz and Pinot Grigio. I've mentioned before that I intend to rack 3 gallons to a smaller carboy and bottle the remainder of each to experiment with bulk/bottle aging.

Currently both are aging sur lie as per kit instructions, where everything else I have made has been racked off the lees. Thus the recent contemplation. I assume with a kit that there is no gross lees as it is just a juice concentrate, or as you mention above about identifying the difference, could the remaining suspended solids in the juice be considered gross lees?

I suspect with the above description it would be best to get the Pinot Grigio off the Lees at racking, but I could choose to Bâttonage the Shiraz and rack after bottling a portion. This could be very interesting as I would have the bottled portion to gauge the differences.

I had no intention of this at the beginning and followed kit instructions including adding fining agents. Do you think there is any concern with continuing to age on the lees with finings included?

Edit: both have been racked previous to adding finings.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 20, 2022)

vinny said:


> Currently both are aging sur lie as per kit instructions, where everything else I have made has been racked off the lees. Thus the recent contemplation. I assume with a kit that there is no gross lees as it is just a juice concentrate, or as you mention above about identifying the difference, could the remaining suspended solids in the juice be considered gross lees?


Sheesh, Vinny, you just pulled this thread in to a black hole! 

Bringing EM into this topic is a change of subject, but it's an important distinction, so I'm cool with discussing it. [Not that me being not cool is going to change anything! ]

When I purchased fresh juice sediment _always_ dropped while the juice was resting. While I can't say for sure, I assume concentrate has fruit solids as well. Maybe not a lot, but some. Assuming there is no gross lees is a mistake, but may not be all that bad (see below).

If anyone has evidence otherwise of concentrates having no fruit solids, please post.

Let's note that EM applies to red and white grapes (whites can be fermented on the skin), not red or white juice, as there is no pomace when fermenting just juice. In the context of kits, red kits with skin packs can be subject to EM. Juice/concentrate kits (white and red w/no skin packs) are not, as there is no pomace to macerate on.

After sealing the primary, FWK red (no skinpack) and white Tavola kits are not actually undergoing Extended _Maceration_, as there is no grape solids to macerate on. It's not long enough to be called sur lie, so I have NO idea what to call it, other the "finishing fermentation". AFAIK, there's no value in keeping the primary closed for more than 1 week (or so) depending on when the lid was closed. This is also true for other kit brands, where there is no skin pack.

From what I've read recently regarding red grape, gross lees drop within 24 to 72 hours of the end of fermentation. Anything after that is fine lees. I'm currently looking for other sources that verify this -- just 'cuz something is posted on the net doesn't make it true.

My 8th grade social studies teacher (LONG before there was an internet) pointed out that our book stated that Nathan Hale (hero of the American Revolution) died in 1776, and was born in 1786. The teacher was fairly certain that was not quite right (his use of sarcasm is still a model for me 40+ years later!), and said that just because something is in a book does not make it correct. That lesson existed prior to the net, and and net (if anything) makes it more important a lesson.​
Based upon what you've said, bottling 2 gallons of each batch now is a good idea. Rack 2+ gallons from the top of the carboy, so the wine is really clear, and bottle 10 bottles.

I have left wine on K&C for an extended period and had no ill effects. However, I cannot say if that was because it's not an issue, or because Dionysus smiled upon me. Unless someone else chimes in with better information, I'd rack off the lees.

Regarding the remaining 3 gallons, I would not worry too much about a 100% clean racking. Add K-meta and ignore the wines for 4 to 8 months (less for Pinot Grigio, more for Shiraz).


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## vinny (Mar 20, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Bringing EM into this topic is a change of subject



I don't remember bringing it up. 

This is one of the rare places where you can get a detailed answer to a question you didn't even know you asked.

I'm all for experiments, but not at the risk of tainting anything. I'll carry on as planned and rack off the lees. I've been considering picking up another couple of 3 gallon carboys and doing the same with the two new batches I have on the go. I'm really interested in tracking the development of flavors and difference between bottle and bulk aging. 

I think I might skip the finings on the two batches I have in primary right now. That way I could split them, age half on the lees and have a side by side comparison of the effects. I could even skip the Bâttonage on one and see if it has pronounced effects over time. 

And... We're back on topic!


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## winemaker81 (Mar 20, 2022)

vinny said:


> I don't remember bringing it up.


Maybe you should reduce the vino consumption????  

I used K&C on my quicker aging wines (Tavola red and white) but didn't on the Forte. I considered it, but they'll be in barrel at least 10 months, so I didn't worry about it.

Your ideas are good -- IMO you're on a good track. There's nothing better than experimenting carefully and teaching yourself.


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## vinny (Mar 20, 2022)

How long did you age the Tavola's?


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## winemaker81 (Mar 20, 2022)

vinny said:


> How long did you age the Tavola's?


Five month for a Barbera, made without skinpacks and bulk aged 4 months on 1 oz medium toast Hungarian cubes.

I just bottled 5 bottles of Chardonnay as sparkling wine at the 4 month mark. I expect to age the remainder for 2 months before bottling as still wine, a total of 6 months.

A Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Noir are on order. I expect to bottle each at the 6 month mark. If the Chardonnay works out, I'm thinking of sparkling a gallon of the SB as well.


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## vinny (Mar 20, 2022)

How do you carbonate? I've been cheating with my soda stream to liven up the Skeeter Pee, DD, and hard lemonade. Makes for a little extra fun. I carbonated DD for my neighbor, she jumped up and said, Oh wow! I want one of those. Haahaha.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 21, 2022)

vinny said:


> How do you carbonate?


I add commercial carbonation drops, which are essentially a measured dose of sugar, to a wine before crown-capping the bottle. The small amount of sugar ignites a renewed fermentation in the bottle. Since the CO2 has no where to go, it remains in the wine, producing carbonation. For a 5 gallon batch, I'd add 1/2 to 2/3 cup sugar to the batch, then bottle, producing the same effect. For a gallon, the drops are easier -- 2 in a champagne bottle or 1 in a 12 oz beer bottle.

This method is very easy, but has the drawback that there will be a bit of sediment in the bottle -- pour the last bit carefully.

Other folks force carbonate with a CO2 cylinder and wine in a small keg. Methode Champenoise is similar to the sugar/drops method, but there is a riddling and disgorging process that removes the sediment (search on that, FAR too much to type).

I started a thread in General, describing my failure to check my champagne bottles. In the USA most beer bottles and champagne bottles take a 26 mm cap, and it Europe it's often 29 mm. Over half my champagne bottles were 29 mm, and my capper is 26 mm ... so some went into beer bottles ....


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## BigDaveK (Mar 21, 2022)

Wow, great topic and links. Thanks guys! It shows, yet again, that WMT is like going to a fun school.


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## David Violante (Mar 21, 2022)

I love this... completely unreasonable but it sure looks fun. 

*Economical large capacity stirrer*


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## winemaker81 (Mar 21, 2022)

Is anyone else practicing bâttonage, and if so, what is your timing of stirring?


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 21, 2022)

David Violante said:


> I love this... completely unreasonable but it sure looks fun.
> 
> *Economical large capacity stirrer*
> 
> View attachment 85937




I built a few stir setups for primary fermenting. I thought this would be a way to oxygenate the must. The problem is the stir bar always jumped off center, also the gross lees mucked it up too. I think the stir bar, 2”, was probably not big enough. I’ve never tried it in secondary. My carboys have enough of a punt that would make it impossible to keep the stir bar centered even if it was bigger. These are just collecting dust now.


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## Obbnw (Mar 21, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> What amount of chips, what volume of wine, and how long are you aging?
> 
> At this time, I have no idea how much lees covering the oak affects absorption by the wine, and suspect that the depth of the lees and the density of the lees matters.



This years batch with oak had about 0.8 oz of french oak chips from LD Carlson in a 5 gallon carboy. The LD carlson bag is 4 oz and said "sufficient for 25 gallons", since I had 5 gallons I used 1/5 of 4 oz. Looking at other online sources this seems light. The batch was mostly Malbec, 25 brix, 3.6 PH at start of ferment. I put the chips in after racking off gross lees about 6 months ago and racked it again off the oak the other day. The chips were all on the bottom covered by what I thought was a fairly thick layer of sediment, seems like I poured out the last 16 oz or so because it was so thick.

Next year I'll up the amount of oak added.

I don't think I'll stir it though. I was looking at my set up last night from a stirring standpoint and it would be a big hassle and I'm worried about contamination. The hassle is just getting the carboys out. I have them all on the floor in a back corner of basement covered by a bench and blanket in a relatively confined area. To do anything I have to slide them out from under the bench and carry them to someplace with more room. On the plus side, since I put them there and added the blanket the temp has been essentially constant at 59 degrees, 50% RH.


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 21, 2022)

My experience is I’ve always added 4 oz of cubes to my 5g carboys. I’ve often thought I’m not adding enough. I suspect your adding too little.


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## David Violante (Mar 21, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> I built a few stir setups for primary fermenting. I thought this would be a way to oxygenate the must. The problem is the stir bar always jumped off center, also the gross lees mucked it up too. I think the stir bar, 2”, was probably not big enough. I’ve never tried it in secondary. My carboys have enough of a punt that would make it impossible to keep the stir bar centered even if it was bigger. These are just collecting dust now.


Very Cool - I love seeing what folks have done DIY... the punt truly is an issue ~ there's a fairly good size one in the Fermonster as well. I do EMs in there and it would definitely be a problem. Another other option that could work with your device is top down:


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## winemaker81 (Mar 21, 2022)

Obbnw said:


> This years batch with oak had about 0.8 oz of french oak chips from LD Carlson in a 5 gallon carboy. The LD carlson bag is 4 oz and said "sufficient for 25 gallons", since I had 5 gallons I used 1/5 of 4 oz.


That's on the light side. I use 1 to 2 oz cubes per carboy.


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## Mekpdue (Mar 22, 2022)

Obbnw said:


> The hassle is just getting the carboys out. I have them all on the floor in a back corner of basement covered by a bench and blanket in a relatively confined area. To do anything I have to slide them out from under the bench and carry them to someplace with more room.



I'm doing the 'storage under the stairs' aging at this time, so went out and bought a cheap ($12.99) 18x12 dolly. Holds a 5-6 gallon Carboy nicely, and with wheels, it moves easily to my bench. Yes, you still have to bend over and of course, lift it up, but since it is on the dolly and off the ground by a couple of inches, it's easier to lift (below). Just a thought.

Interesting experiment, after primary fermentation and secondary is done on the FWK Forte red kits (min. 2 weeks with gross lees). I wonder how valuable it would be rack off the gross lees, add the oak chips and finishing pack (kmeta) to the clarifying stage...leaving out the clearing agents (like @winemaker81 suggested). Another question, do you degas?...Then let sit for a couple of months (stirring every week or so). Then go back to the directions and add the clearing agents, wait, rack, and bulk age more. Or, am I missing something simple suggested near the top of the thread, like leave on the lees until just before bottling time?


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## balatonwine (Mar 22, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> @balatonwine, thanks for the example.
> 
> I expect the hive mind will develop ideas. I suspect this is not that difficult, _once we understand the ramifications_.
> 
> One of the difficulties is ensuring we fully identify the differences between gross and fine lees.



I have difficulty is fully identifying gross and fine lees.

Why?

I know and have read all the literature. But.... I have not found them to be fully accurate for me.

For example, I have had 1 cm or 0.5 cm of lees and they seem to impact the wine the same. Or not. And I have had a "dusting" of lees when stirred do amazing things or damage the wine when a thicker lees had no effect.

There is a heck of a lot more biology and chemistry going on there than I have been able to figure out.

Frustrating.


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## vinny (Mar 23, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> For example, I have had 1 cm or 0.5 cm of lees and they seem to impact the wine the same. Or not. And I have had a "dusting" of lees when stirred do amazing things or damage the wine when a thicker lees had no effect.
> 
> Frustrating.



This statement is really intriguing as I have no experience with... Well, much of any of this. My first thought was not disbelieving of your experience, but that there must be some unknown variable that caused such drastic changes with minimal differences in process and likely ingredients.

Now, I'm COMPLETELY talking outside of any experience or research here, and only doing so for interests sake. However, your statement got me pondering. Could this be something similar to hydrophobic soil? So dried and sun baked that during a downpour torrents of water will rush over the surface, where as, with a light rain before a downpour the soil can absorb the bulk of the moisture. 

Giving the same thought process with mixing up a larger amount of sediment, could it saturate the wine with so many particulates that all, or at least the more volatile compounds are not able to affect the chemistry and flavors with such notable effects, where a lighter suspension might allow more absorption, reaction, etc. ? 

Perhaps the ponderings of a madman, but that's all I've got.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 23, 2022)

vinny said:


> Giving the same thought process with mixing up a larger amount of sediment, could it saturate the wine with so many particulates that all, or at least the more volatile compounds are not able to affect the chemistry and flavors with such notable effects, where a lighter suspension might allow more absorption, reaction, etc. ?


That's an interesting take on the problem.

My first thought was that the thinner layer of lees had more gross lees in it, so it had a more noticeable effect. Which lines up neatly with your hypothesis.


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## balatonwine (Mar 23, 2022)

vinny said:


> Giving the same thought process with mixing up a larger amount of sediment, could it saturate the wine with so many particulates that all, or at least the more volatile compounds are not able to affect the chemistry and flavors with such notable effects, where a lighter suspension might allow more absorption, reaction, etc. ?
> 
> Perhaps the ponderings of a madman, but that's all I've got.



Madman? I think you might be a genius.

What you are suggesting has interesting possibilities. 

Similar to Biodynamics. Remove all the esoterics, and pseudo-science, the process does actually seem to add micro nutrients in a potentially positive way. As a biologist I am underwhelmed by the esoterics of Biodynamics (but understand the cultural need to have them so plants get nutrients when they need them). And I do admit that we know less than we should about micro nutrients, and Biodynamics may indeed have very positive effects, when applied as proper times (esoteric timing my be correct). I have considered such micronutrients in my land, but less so in my wine, and zero consideration on Sur Lie, so your comment does make me take pause and think. The hive mind in action. Thanks.


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## Obbnw (Mar 23, 2022)

I've been pondering the stirring and decided the that for me the best way to do this is just spin and stop the carboy. I tested it this morning and could see it was working. I just used a small plastic jar centered under the carboy and twirled it, then stopped the carboy. You could see it kick up the sediment. I suspect with a "lazy susan" type base it would be really easy and you'd be able to spin it much faster than I could balanced on a plastic jar.

I think I'll keep spinning one of my carboys at least once a week for the next few months see if I notice a difference. Most of my carboys are 3 gallons and from the same or very similar ferments.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 23, 2022)

vinny said:


> Perhaps the ponderings of a madman, but that's all I've got.


On many forums beginners and newcomers are hesitant to post, due to the way existing members treat folks. Thankfully that's not what we do here.

I'm hoping more folks will post -- not all ideas are correct, but as @balatonwine says, the hive mind will generally figure things out. In the end, our group knowledge is greater!


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 23, 2022)

You guys always treat everybody respectfully.

I’ve got two 750 liter bottles of the loquat batch under airlock that I didn’t treat with extra Pectic enzyme Reserved for topping off. One of them stopped its action while I was gone for a little over a day and then revived nicely with a little shake. I think I’m going to use that one bottle as a bâttonage bottle experiment give it a stir ever day.

update:
it was stopped again today. Might not be a good candidate for this experiment. It might have been the last bit I took of primary. Have to check the SG


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## stickman (Mar 24, 2022)

I have only worked with lees on red wine, the result was good, but there are many factors involved and I haven't done any side by side studies to make strong conclusions. The main concern with lees stirring in red wine is potential color loss. I followed Clark's recommendation to remove the fine lees and reserve in a separate vessel, and allow the wine at least 4 months for the color to become bound. During this time, the vessel of lees need to be stirred regularly and have access to small amounts of oxygen to prevent them from becoming stinky; in my case I used a gallon screwcap jug with about 60ml of head space, this way every time you open to check for off odors the headspace is replenished with air then recapped and shaken to suspend the lees completely. After the 4 month period, as long as the lees are clean smelling, they can be added back to the wine and stirred. The process is a PITA and the winemaker has to determine if the result is worth the effort.


Regarding white wine, below is a response from Clark Smith on a comment and question about his Faux Chablis. I suppose it just highlights the complex issues with winemaking, from start to finish every single step affects the next, then it takes multiple years to determine if you achieved the desired results.


Dude, the smoke in that Faux Chablis just sends me. You say it's yeast autolysis. I've stirred a lot of yeast, but I never got THAT! Is there a secret combination of elements? Or maybe I didn't stir often enough long enough?

Mark:

Thanks for the nice comments on the Faux. We're trying to show two things in this wine. One is that California Chardonnay doesn't need to be an oaky, toasty butterbomb -- blame the winemaker, not the terroir. This wine shows the distinctive lemon oil character because the alcohol isn't very high (12.9%), lowered from 14.8% original at dryness to a sweet spot. A high degree of ripeness is essential, just in Chablis, to get this character, but in CA wines it hides beneath the alcohol, and we have to adjust it. In Chablis, this isn't necessary. Instead they adjust the alcohol UP with beet sugar to make up for the dilution from rain.

The other is that white wine can achieve soulfulness through structure, same as a red. To build the structure, we first ferment on well cured, untoasted Alliers chips from Boise France. Then we need to complex the wood tannins with lees, the same way you complex Chenin Blanc's natural tannins in a sur lies Savennieres.

The smoky character is a product of prolonged slow transformation of the lees. It’s a little like marmite, and probably involves slowly evolving low temperature maillard reaction products. I’ve never seen them in batonage wines until at least three years later.

These wines are quite steely when they're young, and only open up after four or five years in the bottle. Worth the wait, though.


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## ChuckD (Mar 24, 2022)

Obbnw said:


> I suspect with a "lazy susan" type base it would be really easy and you'd be able to spin it much faster than I could balanced on a plastic jar.


Great idea! Consider it done! I was already going to make an adjustable tilting base for racking…. Got the idea from one of Riceguy’s pictures. The hive mind really does work.


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## Obbnw (Mar 24, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Great idea! Consider it done! I was already going to make an adjustable tilting base for racking…. Got the idea from one of Riceguy’s pictures. The hive mind really does work.


I just checked the clarity with my phone flashlight (also a tip I learned on this site) and on the one I "stirred" you couldn't see the light at all through the carboy, on a similar batch, I could easily see through it. So it did mix it up pretty well.


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## Swedeman (Mar 24, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> If anyone has evidence otherwise of concentrates having no fruit solids, please post.


Have you seen any in the juice bags? I have never seen any in the kits I have done.


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## Swedeman (Mar 24, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> I’ve got two 750 liter bottles


I know everything is big in your country but wow... ;-)


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 24, 2022)

Swedeman said:


> I know everything is big in your country but wow... ;-)


ml. Gosh. Wow. I’ll blame it on autocorrect. “Autocorrect is my worst enema”
750 ML

we have big glasses here too


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## winemaker81 (Mar 24, 2022)

Swedeman said:


> Have you seen any in the juice bags? I have never seen any in the kits I have done.


Every time I've made a kit, there was solid residue in the bag. Not lots, but not zero, either. I didn't think of that when I first posted.


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## Swedeman (Mar 24, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Every time I've made a kit, there was solid residue in the bag.


Yeah, in mine too but I haven't thought of it as fruit solids but rather something like undissolved nutritions. Anyway, it has been so little that it hardly would made even a really thin layer in the carboy. Perhaps one teaspoon or two...


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## Swedeman (Mar 24, 2022)

Not sure if you have seen this one from Tim V:


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## winemaker81 (Mar 24, 2022)

Swedeman said:


> Yeah, in mine too but I haven't thought of it as fruit solids but rather something like undissolved nutritions. Anyway, it has been so little that it hardly would made even a really thin layer in the carboy. Perhaps one teaspoon or two...


It looks like grape solids, meaning the amount is non-zero. Post-fermentation I assume that solids that didn't deposit in the bag will drop. Maybe I'm putting too much weight on it?



Swedeman said:


> Not sure if you have seen this one from Tim V


That is an excellent video -- thanks for sharing!


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## vinny (Mar 24, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Madman? I think you might be a genius.



I will admit that I have also considered this as a strong possibility on occasion. 



balatonwine said:


> your comment does make me take pause and think



I'm glad I got more contemplation than head shaking.



winemaker81 said:


> On many forums beginners and newcomers are hesitant to post, due to the way existing members treat folks. Thankfully that's not what we do here.



I have been on many a forum where senior members would rather display their superiority than share their knowledge, or at least the knowledge shared was more of a byproduct of their pontifications than teaching and sharing. 

I enjoy that this forum is very inclusive. Whether I'm asking questions or talking about food, there's lots of good to be had here. 

This is the first forum I have ever felt enough value to become a supporting member. That speaks to all of the members here.


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## vinny (Mar 24, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> It looks like grape solids, meaning the amount is non-zero. Post-fermentation I assume that solids that didn't deposit in the bag will drop. Maybe I'm putting too much weight on it?



This is why I asked the question. My kits had definite fruit sediment and based on the above definition it's not yeast hulls, therefore it would have to be gross lees, no?

I think we are quibbling more about definition than anything else and maybe putting to much emphasis on it, but if it's there it's at least not a variable to rule out completely.


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## vinny (Mar 24, 2022)

Swedeman said:


> Not sure if you have seen this one from Tim V:




You guys are terrible influences! This speaks to both my inner geek and the wannabe scientist that lingers deep within. Thanks to Amazon I can absolutely afford a magnetic stirrer. YES! I have already checked.

This is happening...

Edit: As for his full carboy concerns, it would be very easy to rig up a stand to support the weight of the carboy and allow the stirrer to sit underneath if anyone is considering that.


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## Swedeman (Mar 25, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> we have big glasses here too


For shots?


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## Swedeman (Mar 25, 2022)

Tim was obviously ignoring any grape solids.



And in addition, he is fermenting the wine beer style on the yeast cake.


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## heatherd (Mar 25, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> I have difficulty is fully identifying gross and fine lees.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


I don't know that anyone can really spot them precisely. I kind of wonder if "gross lees causing off flavors" is really a wine making knee-jerk sort of thing like I find racking every three months to be from my own personal experience. 

Similarly, I have found knee-jerk reactions to doing alcohol fermentation at the same time as malolactic fermentations; I do that and have had no problems in my own personal experience. There's research online now that indicates that the malolactic bacteria actually do better that way because there's less alcohol around them.

One of us is going to need to do some experiments, I suspect. 

Whether gross lees create off flavors
Whether fine lees create off flavors
Whether gross lees create beneficial flavors
Whether fine lees create beneficial flavors
How sur lie impacts wine
How battonage impacts wine


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## Raptor99 (Mar 25, 2022)

I wonder about this too. When I hear people talking about "gross lees" I get the impression that they mean either:
1. Fruit pulp rather than dead yeast cells
2. Lots of lees vs. only a little bit of lees

When people to sur lie, does it matter how much lees there are? I wonder if there is a threshold at which the lees are too thick to do sur lee?


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## vinny (Mar 25, 2022)

I went to the liquor store today and asked if they had any wines that were aged sur lie.

'Aged what, now?

My first thought.. I shoulda seen this coming.

'Aged on the lees or settled yeast to impart different flavors as it breaks down over the aging process'...

'I've never heard of that.'

I knew I had overstepped the knowledge base, but I have been watching videos leading from one place to another. I have watched wineries discussing it and upcoming wines with distinctive qualities they are very excited to share. I was starting to think it was a common thing. There should be a couple bottles among the hundreds that have been aged sur lie in the store, for sure. Maybe I can try two from the same winery and compare the difference...

The world in my head is much different than the one in small town Alberta.

It was a 5 minute conversation and another employee was called over. He mentioned customers wouldn't want to buy a wine with sediment in the bottle...

I gave them a quick education on sur lie aged wines and was told if I can find it they'll be happy to order it.

I was happy to tuck tail and run. 'Thanks so much, I will try google. Have a great day!

It was awkward and hilarious at the same time. How excited I was for this new experience, only to get looked at like I was speaking french.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 25, 2022)

vinny said:


> I went to the liquor store today and asked if they had any wines that were aged sur lie.
> It was awkward and hilarious at the same time. How excited I was for this new experience, only to get looked at like I was speaking french.


 We’ll you were.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 25, 2022)

heatherd said:


> Whether gross lees create off flavors
> Whether fine lees create off flavors
> Whether gross lees create beneficial flavors
> Whether fine lees create beneficial flavors
> ...


I've found articles that address 2, 4, 5, & 6.

1 & 3 are the big questions. There is a lot of misinformation that I liken to legends, that predate the internet. Pre Internet, we learned from experienced winemakers or books, both of which were of varying accuracy.

With the net, there is so much information available, and enough of us are reading to eventually weed out the misinformation.

I was taught to get wine off the gross lees quickly, and have found "authoritative" references that state the gross lees begin to rot immediately.

Yet folks are doing EM up to 10 weeks with no ill effects. So ... someone is wrong. I'm going to believe the practical evidence.

But we still need to think. Is there a difference between a pressed wine setting on gross lees, and an unpressed wine setting on the pomace? I don't think so ... but am not confident enough to judge.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 25, 2022)

vinny said:


> I went to the liquor store today and asked if they had any wines that were aged sur lie.


I immediately knew where this story was going! 

Look for wines from Loire, as I believe sur lie is common there. If the store does tastings, suggest sur lie as a topic.

I used to belong to the American Wine Society, and there is a local chapter. I may re-join, as tastings were both informative and fun.


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## vinny (Mar 25, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> We’ll you were.



Lets not get stuck on details!


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## vinny (Mar 25, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> I immediately knew where this story was going!


So did I, but I was still experiencing it!

The facial expression was enough to make me think to myself....


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## vinny (Mar 25, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> 1 & 3 are the big questions.



This takes us back to the beginning with the small amounts of sediment in kits as well as suspended solids when racking from pressed grapes (unless it's just me that's stuck on it). Whether it is gross lees, and if so, enough to be beneficial or detrimental.

It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. It would be easy enough to filter/strain the sediment from a kit. I can't see it being beneficial to add gross lees to the equation, though, as all flavors are described as nutty, earthy, etc. all the things yeast would introduce and considerably only result from autolysis (yup, I've been reading), not the decomposition of fruit solids.


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## Swedeman (Mar 26, 2022)

vinny said:


> This takes us back to the beginning with the small amounts of sediment in kits as well as suspended solids when racking from pressed grapes (unless it's just me that's stuck on it).


The way I think of it and admittedly, I might be soooo wrong, is that any fruit solids that is present in the juice bag (talking white wine kits here) have been there for a long time before the the kit maker starts the fermentation. Perhaps up to a year or more, so any thing that could be extracted, has been so. The gross lees post fermentation won't be a problem (if extraction would be the cause).
That leaves us with the fermentation period to be cause of any possible off flavors from the fruits parts, meaning that the yeast would have to act upon the fruit solids, directly or indirectly via some chemical reaction between the solids and fermentation products. I have no knowledge of this so I shouldn't be speculating but as @winemaker81 says "_Yet folks are doing EM up to 10 weeks with no ill effects. So ... someone is wrong. I'm going to believe the practical evidence._ " I'm in that camp to.

Anyway, I have to do a trail myself and divide a sav blanc kit into two 11.5 liters batches, one with and one without lees. In addition I will force carbonate 5 liter of each.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 26, 2022)

Hey, the coconut wine I just started has no fruit solids in it. (Except for those two tiny pieces of grass) so technically no gross lees ? Only from yeast ?


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## winemaker81 (Mar 26, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> Hey, the coconut wine I just started has no fruit solids in it. (Except for those two tiny pieces of grass) so technically no gross lees ? Only from yeast ?


If you let the coconut water set for a few days, nothing settles out? If so, yeah, you're probably right.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 26, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> If you let the coconut water set for a few days, nothing settles out? If so, yeah, you're probably right.


We will know in another day or 2. So I won’t be able to Sur Lie my coconut wine to improve or alter taste ?


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## winemaker81 (Mar 26, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> We will know in another day or 2. So I won’t be able to Sur Lie my coconut wine to improve or alter taste ?


You should be able to do sur lie. I was thinking from an all-or-nothing POV. If there are fruit solids, it won't be much.


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## balatonwine (Mar 26, 2022)

vinny said:


> I went to the liquor store today



That has all the indications of a bar joke.... The type that starts with a priest and two ducks walk into a bar....

A liquor store employ is there to sell booze. If you want to really play with their head, ask them if they have any Amber Wine...


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## heatherd (Mar 26, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> I've found articles that address 2, 4, 5, & 6.
> 
> 1 & 3 are the big questions. There is a lot of misinformation that I liken to legends, that predate the internet. Pre Internet, we learned from experienced winemakers or books, both of which were of varying accuracy.
> 
> ...


My FWK Pinot Noir and Bordeaux Blend are currently doing extended maceration on the gross lees under airlock in primary. Planning to let them go for around eight weeks, then stabilize and rack to a carboy. I'll taste at that point. It's a $200+/- experiment. I made myself a note to let you guys know how it goes. EM is my only variation from the instructions, so should be a good indication of whether this is perceivable to my nose and taste buds; my speculation is no, but we shall see.


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## vinny (Mar 26, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> That has all the indications of a bar joke....



It actually has all the indications of how obsessed I am with wine. I went to town for completely unrelated reasons, yet, I still ended up in a liquor store talking sur lie. 

It was my mechanics birthday, so in addition to running errands, I picked up an ice cream cake and a bottle of his favorite rum..

The rum was just an excuse to get me in the right building to scratch my own itches. I feel I should be ashamed, but I'm not. Not even a little.


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## heatherd (Mar 26, 2022)

vinny said:


> I went to the liquor store today and asked if they had any wines that were aged sur lie.
> 
> 'Aged what, now?
> 
> ...


I find good information on Wine Folly if you want to have more depth about a topic like sur lies so that you're armed for conversations at your next liquor store encounter: What Are Wine Lees? (Sur Lie Explained) | Wine Folly This article covers the method, history, the techniques, how long each varietal is aged on lees, and also gives you a four wines you can try that use the method. 

They have oodles of information and also tasting kits, posters, and other merchandise. 








Wine Folly | Learn about Wine


Wine Folly is the best place to learn about wine. Browse our visual wine compendium or our playful weekly articles. Start your wine education today.




winefolly.com









Wine 101 Learn the Basics - A Beginner's Guide to Drinking Wine | Wine Folly


Wine 101. Beginner's Guide to Wine. Wine Folly's free beginner's wine basics guide offers everything you need to feel confident buying and serving wine.




winefolly.com









Grapes | Wine Folly


Learn more about the major grape varieties of the world.




winefolly.com


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## balatonwine (Mar 26, 2022)

heatherd said:


> It's a $200+/- experiment.



Being experimenting over the past 20 years, I might have thrown an order of magnitude or two greater in cost.

Maybe I wasted my time and money..... I may have had fixed ideas.

From experience, the small experimenters often have better success and can be more helpful and provide more info then those that throw money at an issue. Money can at times be blind to small scale, innovative ideas. Sad but true. If you spend $20 K you may be unwilling to shift to another idea. Even if aware of the cost sunk fallacy. But if you only spent $200, you may be far more agile.

So I fully support your work. Small is actually, and often, better. Let us know how things work for you.

Hope this helps.


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## Brant (Mar 26, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Is there a difference between a pressed wine setting on gross lees, and an unpressed wine setting on the pomace?



I cannot help but think, yes, there would be a difference. The two are very different and as such I cannot help but imagine they would each affect the final product in differing ways. It sure seems, from everything I read, small additions or removals can often have an affect on wine taste. The first rack post ferment is removing a massive quantity of solids (pomace) and wood chips. You would think that removing it has to have some affect on the final taste versus sitting on the in EM for however long. 

However, I think the only way to know for sure is to run a side by side comparison of identical wines. 

I think to believe that there is one right answer for every situation is completely misfounded. I'm finding that making wine is much like making BBQ. There are a lot of variations and they all impart different qualities and to varying degrees. Meat differences, cook temp variation, seasoning, wood type, smoke amount, type of smoker, prep times, prep style, final cool temps, basting while cooking, chamber humidity, etc. The possibilities are nearly endless. This is why there are BBQ competitions and also why I love BBQ. It's more about the journey and less about the destination. Once you reach the goal post, you're just looking for the next opportunity to start again.

Love it!


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## vinny (Mar 26, 2022)

Swedeman said:


> The way I think of it and admittedly, I might be soooo wrong, is that any fruit solids that is present in the juice bag (talking white wine kits here) have been there for a long time before the the kit maker starts the fermentation. Perhaps up to a year or more, so any thing that could be extracted, has been so. The gross lees post fermentation won't be a problem (if extraction would be the cause).
> That leaves us with the fermentation period to be cause of any possible off flavors from the fruits parts, meaning that the yeast would have to act upon the fruit solids, directly or indirectly via some chemical reaction between the solids and fermentation products. I have no knowledge of this so I shouldn't be speculating but as @winemaker81 says "_Yet folks are doing EM up to 10 weeks with no ill effects. So ... someone is wrong. I'm going to believe the practical evidence._ " I'm in that camp to.
> 
> Anyway, I have to do a trail myself and divide a sav blanc kit into two 11.5 liters batches, one with and one without lees. In addition I will force carbonate 5 liter of each.



Makes sense to me.


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## vinny (Mar 26, 2022)

Both of the premium kits I have in secondary have been aging sur lie for 6 weeks as per kit instructions. Do you suspect this is an attempt to add mouth feel and depth to the wine allowing an 8 week kit to display more robust aging qualities sooner. Or, is 6 weeks not enough time for lees to have any effect and the technique is just geared to offer the beginner the easiest methods for highest success?

Because I was making Skeeter Pee I saved the lees from both kits. I discussed continued sur lie aging the pinot grigio, but ruled it out because of the Kieselsol and Chitosan that was added on racking. Next week I am going to rack it to a 3 gallon carboy. Part of me wants to add a gallon back on the original lees with no chemicals added (assuming there are no detectable off flavors. It has been stored in the fridge with wine covering the surface) and sit it on a stir plate for a couple of months. Any thoughts?


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## Laserwine (Apr 4, 2022)

I am new to wine makingvand this thread is very educational. I am going to use a 5 gallon wine kit from Williams Brewing and it says leave in the primary fermenter for 25 days then rack to secondary fermenter (carboy) top off and age it for three months. Is this a different version if sur lie without stirring? Is leaving the must in the 1st fermenter for 25 days to long? I am researching before fermenting. Thank you all!!


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## Chuck E (Apr 4, 2022)

Laserwine said:


> I am new to wine making and this thread is very educational. I am going to use a 5 gallon wine kit from Williams Brewing and it says leave in the primary fermenter for 25 days then rack to secondary fermenter (carboy) top off and age it for three months. Is this a different version if sur lie without stirring? Is leaving the must in the 1st fermenter for 25 days to long? I am researching before fermenting. Thank you all!!



I have used Williams kits before, but I do not follow their instructions. It's best to transfer to carboy when the Specific Gravity remains the same for three days straight. Typically, that means below 1.000 and this will occur in 10 to 20 days. Get yourself a hydrometer to check the S.G.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 4, 2022)

@Laserwine, kit instructions will state to leave in the fermenter for an extended period of time as there is no guarantee the budding winemaker has a hydrometer, so this helps ensure fermentation is complete. Kit instructions are optimized for beginners that have no experienced help, to ensure a successful result.

@Chuck E's advice is spot on.

This assumes the kit doesn't include a skin pack (dried grape skins for extra color & body). A process called Extended Maceration is often used when I skin pack is included, but I'm guessing that's not the case.


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## David Violante (Apr 4, 2022)

Since we've been discussing lees, and how to identify them one way or another, I took a leap into the world of Google Scholar to see what the literature said. After about a half hour of "lees are what's left after fermentation" descriptions, I came across this:

*Jara-Palacios MJ. Wine Lees as a Source of Antioxidant Compounds. Antioxidants. 2019; 8(2):45. Wine Lees as a Source of Antioxidant Compounds *
_https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/8/2/45/htm _

"According to literature and EEC regulation No. 337/79, wine lees can be defined as “a residue that is formed at the bottom of wine containers, after fermentation, during storage or after treatments, as well as the residue obtained after the filtration or centrifugation of this product” [8]. On the one hand, wine lees can be classified into three groups depending on the stage of vinification: first- and second-fermentation lees, which are formed during the alcoholic and malolactic fermentations, respectively, and aging wine lees formed during wine aging in wood barrels [9]. On the other hand, wine lees also can be classified depending on the particle size: heavy lees (between 100 μm and 2 mm, settling within 24 h) and light lees (<100 μm, between 1 and 24 μm, and in suspension at least 24 h after agitation) [10,11].

The main characteristics of wine lees are acidic pH (between 3 and 6), a chemical oxygen demand above 30,000 mg/L, potassium levels around 2500 mg/L, and phenolic compounds in amounts up to 1000 mg/L [12].

This winemaking byproduct is composed of solid and liquid fractions [13]. The solid fraction is a combination of yeasts, organic acids (mainly tartaric acid), insoluble carbohydrates (such as cellulosic or hemicellulosic materials), inorganic salts, lignin, proteins, phenolic compounds, and pulp and other parts of the grape. The liquid fraction is mainly composed of ethanol and organic acids, as lactic acid and acetic acid [2,10,13,14,15].

The composition of wine lees depends on environmental conditions, regions of origin and their agronomic characteristics, the grape variety, and the time of aging in the wood barrels [13,16]."


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 4, 2022)

Now I need a micro micrometer microscope to measure my lees AND a ph meter, and….


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## Raptor99 (Apr 4, 2022)

@David Violante Thanks for posting this article. It focuses primarily on finding other uses for wine lees because of the beneficial phenolics and other compounds in lees:



> this byproduct can be an ideal raw material for obtaining phenolic compounds that could be of interest in the food and pharmaceutical industries



As it happens, yesterday I decanted some lees from cranberry-orange wine that I have had in the fridge for about 3 weeks to let the lees settle. The recovered wine went into a wine bottle for future topping off. I tasted the lees, and they had a very nice, strong cranberry flavor. Of course it was tart, but actually pretty good with a little added sugar. A bit yeasty of course, but not too strong. Considering all the health benefits of cranberries and the B vitamins in yeast cells, this might make a good health drink. Next step: hard cranberry smoothie!


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## David Violante (Apr 4, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> @David Violante Thanks for posting this article. It focuses primarily on finding other uses for wine lees because of the beneficial phenolics and other compounds in lees:
> 
> As it happens, yesterday I decanted some lees from cranberry-orange wine that I have had in the fridge for about 3 weeks to let the lees settle. The recovered wine went into a wine bottle for future topping off. I tasted the lees, and they had a very nice, strong cranberry flavor. Of course it was tart, but actually pretty good with a little added sugar. A bit yeasty of course, but not too strong. Considering all the health benefits of cranberries and the B vitamins in yeast cells, this might make a good health drink. Next step: hard cranberry smoothie!



I found quite a lot of articles that use the lees in ice-cream. I think the best rate was at 40%. I'll have to find them and post them. There's a product called nutritional yeast that I believe does something similar. I'll have to look...


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## David Violante (Apr 4, 2022)

OK- here's just a few... looks like many of these folks were at home with wine making supplies and food the last couple years... hmmm... I wonder if we put one in the other... 


Troilo M, Difonzo G, Paradiso VM, Summo C, Caponio F. *Bioactive Compounds from Vine Shoots, Grape Stalks, and Wine Lees: Their Potential Use in Agro-Food Chains.* _Foods_. 2021; 10(2):342. Bioactive Compounds from Vine Shoots, Grape Stalks, and Wine Lees: Their Potential Use in Agro-Food Chains

Sharma, A.K., Aglawe, M.K. *Addition of Processed Fine Wine Lees of Cabernet Sauvignon to Improve Nutraceutical Properties of Yoghurt*. _Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci., India, Sect. B Biol. Sci._ 92, 141–147 (2022). https://doi.org/10.1007/s40011-021-01326-y 

Tsevdou, M., Aprea, E., Betta, E. _et al._ *Rheological, Textural, Physicochemical and Sensory Profiling of a Novel Functional Ice Cream Enriched with Muscat de Hamburg (Vitis vinifera L.) Grape Pulp and Skins*. _Food Bioprocess Technol_ *12, *665–680 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1007/s11947-019-2237-3 

On Nutritional Yeast:
Jach ME, Serefko A, Ziaja M, Kieliszek M. *Yeast Protein as an Easily Accessible Food Source*. _Metabolites_. 2022; 12(1):63. Yeast Protein as an Easily Accessible Food Source


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## Raptor99 (Apr 4, 2022)

My first hard cranberry smoothie!


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## ChuckD (Apr 4, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> My first hard cranberry smoothie!
> View attachment 86580


So how is it?


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## David Violante (Apr 5, 2022)

Yes! Do tell!


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## Raptor99 (Apr 5, 2022)

My recipe for the smoothie needs some work, but I think that it will be good after some refinements. Yesterday I added yogurt and sugar. The yogurt added some tartness, which it did not need since the cranberries are already tart. Next time I will try a bit of heavy cream and more sugar. Usually sugar + cream + fruit is a good combination. I think that this will turn out to be sort of a dessert drink. 

Now if I can find the ice cream maker I could try that as well. I wonder if I could make it into a sorbet? Here is a sorbet recipe that includes cranberries: Triple Berry Sorbet I would have to adapt it to work with lees, but at least it gives me some ideas. Time to experiment on!


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## Raptor99 (Apr 6, 2022)

Today I tried version #2: About 8 oz. of lees, about 1 oz. heavy cream, and 1 Tbls. sugar. The taste is very nice, like a cranberry milk shake. I have a new use for gross lees from a healthy ferment!


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