# Best kits producers?



## Geronimo (Dec 13, 2011)

I only have WineXpert and Cellar Craft available locally. It looks like WE are the most prevalent. I'd rather not pay shipping when possible, but I have to ask; Are some of the other brands really better? If so, which are the "best"?


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## Tom (Dec 13, 2011)

1st depends on the quality of the kit you buy. I would not get any of the low end kits. Spend at least $100 for a good kit. You get what you pay for.


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## Rocky (Dec 13, 2011)

Geronimo, you have really opened up a can of worms with this question. 

You are going to get anwers that will run the gauntlet and essentially it is very subjective. It is not a widely held opinion on this forum, but mine is that the high end WineExpert kits are great. I am talking about their _Winexpert Selection International w/ Grape Skins_ and _Winexpert Selection Estate Series_. This latter series suffers from not having a grape pack, but that can be added. Cellar Craft's _Limited Release Collection_ and _Showcase Collection_ are excellent. Their _Premium Series_ is also good but I feel requires a grape pack.

RJ Spagnols makes some excellent kits in their _En Premeur_ and _Winery Series_ lines. Their _Cellar Classic_ line is also very good, but again requires a grape pack. 

The line that _personally_ I don't see as a value (and I define "value" simply as "what you pay for what you get") is the Mosti Mondiale, and I know I will get a lot of opposition to this opinion. I feel they are generally over-priced for no difference in quality and not worth the incremental cost over the others above. That said, let me be more specific. Their _All Juice Original_ reds are really weak. The whites are okay, but there are much better values out there. I have not used the _Meglioli_ nor the _All Juice Masters Edition_ because of my experience with the All Juice Original, their price and I don't see the need to pay for shipping water.

These are the only kits that I have used. Again, this is _my opinion _and everyone has to decide from himself. Let the firestorm begin!


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## ibglowin (Dec 13, 2011)

If you can buy Cellar Craft locally you are very lucky indeed. Definitely my go to wine kit this past year. Not a bad kit in the Showcase Series line and I have made a bunch of them!


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## shoebiedoo (Dec 13, 2011)

I think it pays to pay attention to the awards recieved. I was suprised when WE's Aussie Chardonnay was actually rated higher than RJS's En Premeur's. Most manufacturers share that information on their website. A lot of sellers will offer that as well. Sometimes you don't HAVE to spend teh extra money.


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## ibglowin (Dec 13, 2011)

A little clarification may be needed to go with that statement. 

Since WE is the most prevalently available kit and many times the ONLY type of kit available in MANY LHBS, it stands that they would have an inordinate amount of entries just based on their availability alone nationwide. 

Not saying the kit is not a good kit, just saying if you had 500 entries of Chardonnay and 400 of them were WE odds are that that kit is gonna win more hardware than the other kits (that may be equally as good).

The difference in price between that kit and the RJS EP Chardonnay is ~$29

Use the Top 100 Awards as a guideline but make sure to dig deeper into the listings and then compare.


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## cpfan (Dec 13, 2011)

In my opinion, the best kit manufacturers (in alpha order) are Cellar Craft, RJ Spagnols, Vineco, and Winexpert. I know that many would add Mosti Mondiale to that list, but I have no recent experience, and had some bad experiences with them some time ago (about 6-10 years ago). I also have no experience with Wine Kitz in the last 10 years.

Vineco (some seem to call them KenRidge) is unfortunately not widely available in the USA.

In wine kits, you generally get what you pay for, so in general buy the better quality kits. There are some gems in the middle quality lines though. For example, we are big fans of the Ken Ridge Classic Merlot. But many of these are personal taste.

Steve


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## rhoffart (Dec 13, 2011)

ok. I want to jump in ... my 2 cents

I am a big fan of the Mosti Mondiale 23 liter kits. Especially the Masters and Meglioli. These are great products and I may never make a different brand.


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## almargita (Dec 13, 2011)

What ever brand you decide to get just make sure its there higher end kit that they have....... You will be greatly rewarded by choosing this. Also don't be in any hurry to complete it. even though it may state that its ready to drink in XX amount time, leave it sit for about a year!! I know its hard to do, but it does make a big difference. I guess that why we are always starting something new.........
Al


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## Geronimo (Dec 13, 2011)

I have made nothing but WE kits so far. The Mezza Luna red is quite good for a starter kit. The discerning wine drinker will notice it's a table wine, but many friends that have been turned off by "table" wine in the past really enjoy it. The "ultra premium" Washington Columbia Valley Riesling is awesome. The Mezza Luna white... not so much. Maybe it's too young, but so far it's a touch too sweet. The Lodi Ranch 11 Cabernet Sauvignon is clearly a wine for wine drinkers. However, since there is no grape skins, I was wondering about the long term tannin interaction. I started a 2nd kit of this so that we get some 2+ year old bottles out of it. If it's good young it'll usually be great later on IMO.

Thanks for the input! It's nice that even though I "opened a can of worms" no one seems to be flaming or anything


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## Wade E (Dec 13, 2011)

Rocky, I agree with you on the Mosti All juice but not sure what you mean about paying to have water shipped. The Alljuice is exactly what it says unlike some of the other buckets of juice where you add no water like the RJS Premier Cuvee I believe its called, that one has water added to it so you dont have to add water. the Mosti All juice is "All Juice" but I agree is thin and Im not a big fan of it for reds. I did make the Riesling and it was to die for. Myself, Im a RJS Winery series and EP guy but am trying he Mosti Impressions line for a few as they are 18 liters of juice with a grape pack twice the size of all others I believe and are almost the same price as the Winery Series and Cellar Craft which are 16 liters and cheaper the the RJS EP which is the 18 liter. We'll see what happens. I dont have access to the Kenridge stuff. Im not a big fan of the even highest W.E. kits, they all had a certain sweetness taste to me that took forever or never went away. IMO they are where the "Kit Taste" mainly came from.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 13, 2011)

_"The "ultra premium" Washington Columbia Valley Riesling is awesome."_

I agree with that assesment. Just make sure you clean, soak and rinse your primary real good and then do it again if you made a jalapeno wine last. How would I know


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## Wade E (Dec 13, 2011)

Which 1 is that Dan?


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## Rocky (Dec 13, 2011)

Geronimo, I am kind of surprised at the civil reaction to the subject. I thought there would be more strident opposition to one brand or another and I am pleased that there is not. I thought you had opened a "box of Pandora's worm cans."


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## Runningwolf (Dec 13, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Which 1 is that Dan?



That was an expensive winexpert I screwed up.


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## Geronimo (Dec 13, 2011)

I have this interesting "gift" for broaching topics that result in emotional responses. Hence the nickname. 

(Actually the nickname came from a Brazilian friend, and Geronimo is a common name to them).


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## Geronimo (Dec 13, 2011)

Runningwolf said:


> _"The "ultra premium" Washington Columbia Valley Riesling is awesome."_
> 
> I agree with that assesment. Just make sure you clean, soak and rinse your primary real good and then do it again if you made a jalapeno wine last. How would I know



You made a pseudo jalapeno Riesling? Ouchie!

I use all glass fermenters. No matter how many horror stories I hear, my trophy case is full of blues and I swear by them. I use a combination Oxyclean and beer line cleaner for the detergent, then rinse well, and then Starsan. I use Starsan again before then next use.


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## Rocky (Dec 13, 2011)

I use a combination Oxyclean and beer line cleaner for the detergent, then rinse well, and then Starsan. I use Starsan again before then next use. 

That is what I call belt, suspenders and an elastic waist band.


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## Giovannino (Dec 14, 2011)

I gotta jump in. 

I'm currently waiting to bottle a couple of RJS's en premiere series as can be seen in my signature but have not had previous experience with them.

I've stuck with WineXpert simply because of the Customer Service at both the retailer and manufacturer's level. I really like their attitude.


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## rhoffart (Dec 14, 2011)

Rocky said:


> I have not used the _Meglioli_ nor the _All Juice Masters Edition_ because of my experience with the All Juice Original, their price and I don't see the need to pay for shipping water.



Rocky, you should really try it. After a long talk with George one day, I would never buy an all juice bucket. I had a Masters on back-order and asked George if I should sub an all juice bucket, and without hesitation he said no you want to wait. The Masters and Meglioli are in a different league. And, there is no water added.


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## Wade E (Dec 14, 2011)

Ive never made the Meglioli or Mastersbut Ive had a bottle of Meglioli Barolo and I will say it was the best bottle of wine Ive ever had in my life. Its still way more then I want to pay for 1 kit though!


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## wjdonahue (Dec 14, 2011)

Something that hasn't been touched on that I thought would be by now is the shipping. That really depends on your LHBS and their markup. Just had a friend of mine who wanted to start making wine, so we took a trip to a local LHBS and I was astounded by the prices for the high end kits. True, I haven't used kits for years, but the prices still seemed awfully high to me. Sooo....as soon as I got home, I went of a couple of big web sites, Georges and NB. What I found was that the prices from George and NB, in most cases were so much lower than the LHBS that even after you paid for the shipping, there was still more than a 10% savings. 
Now I really believe in supporting your local LHBS, but not when their markups are that high.
The comment that you didn't want to pay for shipping? Well maybe you should take another look at the prices at Georges + shipping, and those of your LHBS.....maybe you too could be saving 10% and still getting the best kits that you want to use.


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## wjdonahue (Dec 14, 2011)

Just finished (a month ago) judging at the Kansas City Wine Classic. They don't make any distinction between wines made from grapes or kits in their competition, all are judged blind on a UC Davis Scale. 
What I found to be very interresting was that the kits were identified on the entry sheet according to the manufacturer of the kit and the type (I.E> CellarCraft Showcase, WE Estate, etc."
There has been a lot of discussion over the last couple of years about separating out the kit wines from the grapes, so we sat down afterwards and reviewed the scores for kit wines vs grapes. Not surprisingly in the vinifera categories, the best in class went to wine made from grapes (as did the overall best of show). Both red and white winners scored 19+. But what was surprising was that 2nd and 3rd in each category went to kit wines, red a Meglioli Pinot Noir with grape pack, and a Cellarmaster Selection Barbera. Whites showed the same. Here is a breakdown of the medals won by the kit wines by manufacturer.....pretty simiolar to Winemakers Mag competition.

Gold Medals: Mosti Modiale Meglioli 2, Cellarcraft Selection 1
Silver Medals: Mosti 4, CellarCraft 4, Wine Expert 1
Bronze Medals: Cellarcraft 8, Mosti 6, Wine Expert 2, Herron Bay 1

We also looked at the comments made by the judges for the kits......Mosti and Cellarcraft had most comments specific to the wine and the vaarietal. The Wine Expert Kits had a surprising number of comments about "kit taste."
Now I'm not recommending any one over the other......but if I were going to pay for a kit......pretty obvious which ones I would and wouldn't buy.


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2011)

I think I need to clarify my comment on "shipping water" because I think it was largely misunderstood. What I meant is that I don't want to order 23 liter kits when I can get a good 16 or 18 liter kit and save shipment on the 5 or 7 liters of water. Grape juice is about 70-80% water and when a concentrate is made, some of the water is removed by whatever process. The water I was referring to is the water still in an "all juice" kit. I can add spring water at my place and save shipping on about 10-15 lbs. That is what I meant. 

I will also allow, based on what has been posted, that perhaps I have been hasty in painting all Mosti Mondiale products with the same brush.


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## Giovannino (Dec 15, 2011)

> We also looked at the comments made by the judges for the kits......Mosti and Cellarcraft had most comments specific to the wine and the vaarietal. The Wine Expert Kits had a surprising number of comments about "kit taste."
> Now I'm not recommending any one over the other......but if I were going to pay for a kit......pretty obvious which ones I would and wouldn't buy.



en Premier is highly recommended in several threads in this forum, does that mean it is too good or too bad for that competition - it is not even mentioned.

You also do not mention which kits the judges referred to - ie entry, premium, ultra premiem etc.

No offence but actually you ARE recommending, because you're making your opinion of choice obvious.


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## rhoffart (Dec 15, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Grape juice is about 70-80% water and when a concentrate is made, some of the water is removed by whatever process. The water I was referring to is the water still in an "all juice" kit.



The only question I have is; If you remove the water and then add it back, can it be as good?

The only thing that comes to mind is orange juice. You know the cans of orange sludge (frozen I think) you mix with water. That stuff didn't even taste like orange juice.

I'd rather pay the extra for shipping and skip this process.


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## ibglowin (Dec 15, 2011)

Nothing will ever be as good as juice that has not been messed with. They remove the water via reverse osmosis. Thats a pretty simple straight forward procedure. Its the need for pasteurization that I personally thinks changes things. Anytime you have to heat a natural product hot enough to kill all bacteria (even if its only for short amount of time) you are degrading to some extent what mother nature produced, even if its only slightly.

I made a bunch of the original Mosti Renaissance kits and all turned out very good to excellent. The Rio Grande Rojo I made came with just 16L of juice and it can hold its own to any commercial $10-15 bottle from Chile. Loads of depth, tons of flavors and an amazing finish for a mid end kit. I added some TanCor but other than that was made stock. Like many of you have mentioned, the MM AJ kits were no better (and perhaps slightly disappointing) when compared to the Renaissance kits. Perhaps it was just the marketing aspect in which if you paid $20-25 more for something it should be leaps and bounds better than the other kits and they just were not. 

Not saying they were not good, just saying they were not any better, so save the $$$ and buy the Renaissance kits. Now that they are rolling out with grape packs and raisins etc they should be a very good/great wine for the money. I still like Cellar Craft Showcase but we all know that the sale has put a big ? mark in their future. Plus they have raised the prices to ~$150 a kit.


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## wjdonahue (Dec 16, 2011)

Giovaninno
Don't really know the answer to that one (grin). Just had a bottle of RJ Pinot at a friends house and it was wonderful. 
The fact is, for some reason, that there were no RJ kits identified on the entry documents. Wxcept from buying it from George, or NB nobody here locally carries the RJ line. They are some good wine kits and a lot of people I know around here make them, and I know that in the past there have been RJ kits entered that have won medals. This year, for some reason, none were entered.
The Heron Bay that got a bronze was the only Heron Bay that was entered also. Don't know the reason why, but just that they weren't entered this year.
Bill


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## wjdonahue (Dec 16, 2011)

As for my preferences....I have to admit that I do like Megioli and Cellarcraft, Just haven't had a bad wine made from either....and have limited exposure to RJS.
The entry forms didn't ask for the type of kit (premier, etc.). I would suppose, however, that only the premium kits made it to the medal rounds, but even that is an assumption.
If you look at the Winemaker contest breakdowns, they closely mimic what we saw also. The fact that RJS isn't readilly available in this area holds down there entries. 
In the competition, we have wines submitted from all over the country, but kit wines are usally local submissions, with grapes, fruit, and meads predominant from outside of this area


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## Giovannino (Dec 18, 2011)

Thanks Bill. I guess since given that RJS is not sold in the area is a good reason for them not to make the list - hehehe. Me thinks therefore, stats don't tell the real story.

I have a couple of RJS' batches ready for bottling in January so won't know until then whether promising or not.

There are a few country fairs around here perhaps I'll try entering something - your post WAS encouraging afterall.


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## Putterrr (Dec 18, 2011)

Yesterday I bottled my first kit made with a grape skin pack. It was RJS Rosso Grande Eccellente, Cellar Classic Winery Series. It was started March 1 2011. Over the years I have made well over a hundred 6 week premium kits from RJS and WE and this was by far the best. Even at this young age, it was very full with great tannin structure. It reminded me of a glass of store Cab Sav I had at a x-mas party on friday. I have 3 other grape skin kits on the go and 1 more in the box and now that I have had a taste of the good stuff, I see many more in my future. Well worth the extra $$

Cheers


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## wjdonahue (Dec 19, 2011)

Laughing

Although the results don't say much about the RJS kits since there weren't any entered this year, I went to the organizers who gave me the data for the last 4 years. 
This showed that there were 18 wines enered that were made from the RJS kits during this time with the following results. 1 Gold, 2 Silver and 5 Brone. Not bad results....sorry that I didn't have this info before....only just the 2011 results.
I think you might be right though, on my prejudices. Though I haven't made a kit in a few years, in considering them for purchase, these results definitely show which ones I would consider and which I wouldn't. Doesn't mean that good wine cannot be made from any kit....but the results seem to point you to certain kits, and away from others.
Will have to make a kit, however, this year....one of my prizes was one of the new WE grape pack kits. Hey...the price was right (grin). 
As for entering contests, it not only can be fun and a nice pat on the back if you medal, they can also be frustrating. Have found that the ones sponsored by wine clubs are usually the best, while state fairs can be very frustrating because of their selection of judges. Some of them think that the sweet rotgut reds are the epitome (yecch). 
If you are interrested, the KC Cellarmasters contest in Nov of each year is one of the best.....since all of the members of the club are wine makers, not just wine tasters; and the judging is done by experienced wine makers, many of them professionals in the industry. You can find out more about it at www.cellarmasters.org and click on Wine Classic.


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## Giovannino (Dec 19, 2011)

Bill, thanks for going that extra mile and getting the info, your effort IS appreciated.

Not sure if I said it before that although I have a couple of RJS batches going I prefer WE because their retailer here, is second to none when it comes to Customer Care and Service and because every inquiry I've ever made with WE's Head Office has been responded to and addressed, in a very short period of time.

As for the others, their premises were small and cramped - I like space.

Again, THANKS


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## blairholand (Dec 21, 2011)

*Think about just purchasing juice*

I stopped getting kits I found none of them had that much to offer after i made my first batch from scratch by purchasing fruit from the local orchard. I found if you balance your wine throughout the wine making process almost all juice turned out good. Now if you are looking for great you will need to make more adjustments then just balancing your wine. I guess what I am saying is getting juice or fruit from the local orchard choosing your yeast and making your wine from scratch I enjoy it much better than getting a kit. 

Don't get me wrong when you first start a kit takes a ton of the guess work out and if you are getting a cheaper kit make sure you balance your Must and try to keep it balanced through the whole process. You can take a cheap kit and make it a very good wine.


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## cpfan (Dec 21, 2011)

blairholand....

local availability of fruit (ie California) is great, but kits still fill a couple of holes (eg from fruit that isn't available, or out of season).

also, I can't be bothered to source the fruit, get the equipment, etc etc.

Steve


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## tonyt (Feb 2, 2013)

Wade E said:


> Myself, Im a RJS Winery series and EP guy but am trying he Mosti Impressions line for a few as they are 18 liters of juice with a grape pack twice the size of all others I believe and are almost the same price as the Winery Series and Cellar Craft which are 16 liters and cheaper the the RJS EP which is the 18 liter.



Wade how did the Impressions turn out. How do they compare to the other skins kits of CC and RJS?


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