# Yes, I've been lucky, until now!! HELP!!!



## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

Cheers to all!!

So I took 50 pounds of Raspberries someone hand picked for my brother locally and (frozen). Two 5 gallon batches @ 5pnds per gallon( full body) as per Keller's recipe for raspberry wine. Done it many times @ 1 & 3 gallon batches(store bought), and with different fruits. Went thru fermentations ph and ta ( I did not check) start sg 1.095, finished @ .0990, stabilized, bottled. 2 months later popped a cork poured a glass swirl, swirl, smell, WOW! fruity and nice... Sip...Blah... not so good. Check PH. 3.6 ....TA.1.2 WHAAATTTT????? Checked 3 different bottles at same setting with same results. Don't understand why the acid level is so high. Lesson learned CHECK EVERYTHING,EVERY TIME... (stupid is as stupid does).. Can Anything be done now or do I Toss it? 

Thanks!!!

Note: I would like to say this mistake has nothing to do with Mr. Kellers recipes on his site, which I applaud him on , which also is my favorite site,... the mistake was my own for NOT checking when the time was right to eliminate any problems with the must.


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## GreginND (Jan 27, 2016)

I'd probably just sweeten it to balance the acid as you open the bottles.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

GreginND said:


> I'd probably just sweeten it to balance the acid as you open the bottles.



Awesome! What would you start with?

Thanks


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## JohnT (Jan 27, 2016)

man!  that acid is up there. adding sugar is good, but you may also want to add some k-bicarb to lower the acid somewhat.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

JohnT said:


> man! that acid is up there. adding sugar is good, but you may also want to add some k-bicarb to lower the acid somewhat.



Thanks! I didn't think one could add that much. I guess I figured the measurement of it wrong. How much should I start with?

Thanks!


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## Johnd (Jan 27, 2016)

Someone correct me if I'm off, but I think 3.6 is the ph at which cold stabilization will precipitate TA out and not lower the ph. It'd be a bear now since its in bottles, but a bench test with one bottle could be in order. If it worked out, you could do it in the bottles and just deal with the diamonds by pouring through a screen.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 27, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Someone correct me if I'm off, but I think 3.6 is the ph at which cold stabilization will precipitate TA out and not lower the ph. It'd be a bear now since its in bottles, but a bench test with one bottle could be in order. If it worked out, you could do it in the bottles and just deal with the diamonds by pouring through a screen.



I believe you are correct about that, but I would be surprised if cold stabilization will drop the TA by much more than 0.1 or 0.2. It is probably worth trying, sometimes pH and TA don't do what theory says they should.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

Thanks guys!!

By my calculations it will take 10 1/2 teaspoons per gallon of calcium carbonate.

Seems excessive but I'm going to try this and put it in the cold for 48 hours, if, I am correct. What a mess!!!

Thanks again


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## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

So I should be able to eat a large pepperoni pizza with a bottle of this wine and not get heartburn. lol..


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## GreginND (Jan 27, 2016)

Ok . . . let's get some perspective here.

First: the wine is already bottled. So, anything you do to it would require uncorking all of those and putting it back into carboys. No matter what, this will be hard on the wine for oxygen exposure, etc. One should evaluate the cost/benefits of such an operation.

Second: A TA of 1.2 is very manageable. I am working with grapes this year that came in at over 2 g/L. It's going to be a sweet red wine and it's tasting pretty good

Third: NO CALCIUM at this point. Calcium carbonate should only be used prior to fermentation. It takes a very long time to precipitate out calcium tartrates. It will not cold stabilize in 48 hours. It takes months, usually.

Fourth: The pH is rather high for this TA. When you say the taste is "blah" do you mean flat? Or too tangy? If flat - reducing acid will only get worse. If tangy - that can be balanced with sugar.

So, the least intrusive and safest thing to do is chalk this up to a learning experience and do it different next time. Experiment with one bottle - make a simple syrup and make up several samples with different amounts of the sugar. Decide which amount tastes the best and then use that formula every time you open a bottle. I'd enjoy the wine and sweeten it to taste when serving if it were me.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

GreginND,

Thank you for this information.
I had come to the understand cal. carb. was the only thing after fermentation was complete.
I just added 10.5 teaspoons to a gallon gasses it up and sealed it.
I've tried building the sweetness up slowly, it became tolerable but not acceptable for my taste.
Your correct about the Ph being where it is and all that acid.
It won't happen again I will always check before the primary ferm. is started.
The raspberry's were free, but the labor and loosing the wine is what's sad. 
Thanks again! Cheers!


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## GreginND (Jan 27, 2016)

Well, hopefully you can enjoy it. If nothing else, try blending it with a lower acid wine.

Calcium carbonate should be used pre-fermentation. Potassium carbonate or bicarbonate is the best thing after fermentation. Be careful not to adjust TA more than 0.2 g/L with these additions. Calcium carbonate may make your wine taste chalky. Did you do tasting trials with it to know how much to add? It is all about the taste, after all, not the numbers specifically.

Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 27, 2016)

GreginND said:


> Well, hopefully you can enjoy it. If nothing else, try blending it with a lower acid wine.
> 
> Calcium carbonate should be used pre-fermentation. Potassium carbonate or bicarbonate is the best thing after fermentation. Be careful not to adjust TA more than 0.2 g/L with these additions. Calcium carbonate may make your wine taste chalky. Did you do tasting trials with it to know how much to add? It is all about the taste, after all, not the numbers specifically.
> 
> Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.



Yes, You are correct I was wrong about the calcium carbonate. 
I believe I will try sweeting further and do the blending. 

Really appreciate you help. I have a lot to learn.

Also explains why my lips are white. lol.

Thanks again!!!


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## JohnT (Jan 28, 2016)

GreginND said:


> Well, hopefully you can enjoy it. If nothing else, try blending it with a lower acid wine.
> 
> Calcium carbonate should be used pre-fermentation. Potassium carbonate or bicarbonate is the best thing after fermentation. Be careful not to adjust TA more than 0.2 g/L with these additions. Calcium carbonate may make your wine taste chalky. Did you do tasting trials with it to know how much to add? It is all about the taste, after all, not the numbers specifically.
> 
> Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.


 
Greg, 

Wouldn't it be best that he lower at least some of the acid using k-bicarb, then sweeten to compensate for the remaining high acid? 

Just wondering if there was a reason for just using a back-sweeten and not using k-bicarb also?


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## Tnuscan (Jan 28, 2016)

GreginND said:


> Ok . . . let's get some perspective here.
> 
> First: the wine is already bottled. So, anything you do to it would require uncorking all of those and putting it back into carboys. No matter what, this will be hard on the wine for oxygen exposure, etc. One should evaluate the cost/benefits of such an operation.
> 
> ...



Correct again, I recalibrated my ph meter and my correct Ph is 3.0. If it is accurate.


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## Johnd (Jan 28, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Correct again, I recalibrated my ph meter and my correct Ph is 3.0. If it is accurate.



If your ph is 3.0, that takes cold stabilization out of the equation, it would only make the wine more acidic at this point..........


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## Tnuscan (Jan 28, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Greg,
> 
> Wouldn't it be best that he lower at least some of the acid using k-bicarb, then sweeten to compensate for the remaining high acid?
> 
> Just wondering if there was a reason for just using a back-sweeten and not using k-bicarb also?



Thanks! I will purchase some k-bicarb and do a sample run with it.

Many Thanks!!!


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## Tnuscan (Jan 28, 2016)

So now correct readings are. 4.8cc x .25 = 1.2 TA ---Ph 3.0 
Sorry for false reading.

Thanks!


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## JohnT (Jan 28, 2016)

That makes much more sense!


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## jensmith (Jan 30, 2016)

Instead of a simple syrup use frozed juice conventrate. Way better flavore profile for backsweetning. Especially when trying to fix a problem. The grape concentrate is very lacking in acid. It should balance out the raspberries better then simple syrup.


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## GreginND (Jan 30, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Greg,
> 
> Wouldn't it be best that he lower at least some of the acid using k-bicarb, then sweeten to compensate for the remaining high acid?
> 
> Just wondering if there was a reason for just using a back-sweeten and not using k-bicarb also?



Mainly because it would be the only option to do without having to uncork and empty all the bottles. I don't know that I would want to put my wine through that if the benefit wasn't a great bottle of wine in the end.

But I suppose you could add bicarb to each bottle as you open and serve them too.


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## Tnuscan (Jan 30, 2016)

jensmith said:


> Instead of a simple syrup use frozed juice conventrate. Way better flavore profile for backsweetning. Especially when trying to fix a problem. The grape concentrate is very lacking in acid. It should balance out the raspberries better then simple syrup.



Thanks! I will give this a try, I had been wondering if this was a possibility.
Thanks again!


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## JohnT (Jan 30, 2016)

GreginND said:


> Mainly because it would be the only option to do without having to uncork and empty all the bottles. I don't know that I would want to put my wine through that if the benefit wasn't a great bottle of wine in the end.
> 
> But I suppose you could add bicarb to each bottle as you open and serve them too.



OH, OK, makes sense.. thanks.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 27, 2017)

Today I finished off a bottle of this wine, Wow!! 13 months ago I was ready to toss it. I tested it after it had been bottled for a short time, the pH was actually 2.9 and the TA 10. g/L. Sg. 0.992

It was adjusted to 3.4 pH with a 6.9 g/L TA backsweetened to 1.006 and it is pretty good. Really glad I didn't give up.

Thanks guys!!!


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## sg1strgt (May 10, 2017)

Ok, so I know this thread is old but I am totally confused (I'm new so forgive me). When making wine from frozen fruit like blackberries (for instance, the blackberry wine recipe from Jack Kellers site), there is no mention of checking ph, TA (whatever that is), adding K-Meta, sulphites, sorbates, etc. Is there a method/plan I should be concerned with? I hear all the time about bottle bombs and wine gone bad and I'm having too good a time making and drinking the wine I make to have it go sour on me in the long term. Can someone give me a rundown on what to add and when and why? What effect will these added chems have? 

Eager to learn and not make bad undrinkable wine.


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## meadmaker1 (May 10, 2017)

Keep things clean
Read lots of differant recipes compare the amounts of things like Kmeta and sorbate per the amount and type
Bottle bombs for me and it seems im not alone are the aftermath of being impatient. 
Never bottle until you are certain fermentation is done and then wait 2 months.K sorbate if back sweetening. And wait after sweetening 
If you are following a recipe as closely as you can and trust it, some readings are probably assumed, id trust that as well. Knowing these helps reproduce or adjust. Knowing S G for monitoring purposes helps track progress
And get to making wine. Things will make more sense once you are under way.


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## sg1strgt (May 11, 2017)

Keith, I appreciate all the info and I have been following most all the recipes I've tried to the letter with slight variations like dbl fruit in the primary. I guess my concern would be more towards the long term, making sure that when I either bottle or bulk age, I have all the appropriate chemicals in the wine so say 6-9-12 months from now, my wine is 10x better then when I set it aside. Also, what is TA? 

For example, I started last weekend, making a batch of cherry wine using Vintnors cherry wine base (supposed to be 5 gal) and I followed all the directions on the container and the yeast (EC-1118). The only exception is I cut it down to 4 gallons not 5 and had a real hard time getting the fermentation to start. Temp was 72, SG was 1.10, PH was 3.5. It took 2 full days before my yeast took off. It's been 4 days now and I still get a foam cap after I stir (everyday), SG has only dropped to 1.07. 

My end game with this batch is to split it up. 2 gallons wine, 2 gallons a cherry vanilla port. I'm hoping for at least 14% when fermentation ends so I can calculate how much brandy I will need to make my port. I don't want to pamper this batch for a whole year only to find out I have crap in my carboy. Suggestions? Tips? Any/all advise is always welcome.


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## Bodenski (May 11, 2017)

sg1strgt said:


> Ok, so I know this thread is old but I am totally confused (I'm new so forgive me). When making wine from frozen fruit like blackberries (for instance, the blackberry wine recipe from Jack Kellers site), there is no mention of checking ph, TA (whatever that is), adding K-Meta, sulphites, sorbates, etc. Is there a method/plan I should be concerned with?



I've spent a lot of time on Jack Keller's website. He's pretty up front in some sections that he doesn't mention all the things you should be doing to make sure it's "good." I think he's pretty explicit that sulfites should be added every 3 months, sorbate before back sweetening, adjusting acid based upon your particular fruit, etc. 

He talks about the difference between being a cook and being a chef. Following the directions verbatim makes you a cook. But by knowing the rest of the story, you can become a chef by making the adjustments you need to take his recipes and make them work for your fruit, etc. The recipes are simply what worked for his fruit in that particular batch! 

(Me, I prefer being a cook most of the time.  It's a lot of work to make the adjustments. And my palate isn't that refined that I'll catch the difference between good and great at this point.)


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## sg1strgt (May 11, 2017)

James, like you, I prefer to be a cook but aspire to be a chef. My goal is not only to keep my wife happy with an endless supply of good wine, but for me, I want the long term results I hear everyone talking about. Aging their wines for 12+ months and then being rewarded with an incredible bottle. I have a batch of cherry wine fermenting right now, 4 gallons from a Vintnor cherry base (I know, the container says for 5 gallons) that I want to split. 2 gallons for wine and 2 gallons to make a cherry vanilla port. My goal? To age the port for at least 1-2 years. I want a bottle that when I open it and take a sip, I have a religious experience (lol). That's what I want so I want to make sure I get it right.


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