# White/cream film



## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

I've searched the forum but don't find exactly what I have. 
I have a carboy of Barbera that has a white or cream colored film on the shoulder of the carboy. They are swirls like I have seen on other threads but they are not on the bottom.
I only have about 1" air gap and my so2 is at 40. A little high but it has a ways to go ageing. 
It has been racked twice since fermentation ended.
I don't use any fining agent, only bentonite or peptic enzyme and since it is not on the bottom don't suspect it is from settling.
If I tilt the carboy it will dissipate the film but I hesitate to do it very much as it my be better left undisturbed and the wine siphoned out.
It has no off odor. I'm not tasting until I understand what it might be.

Any ideas greatly appreciated.


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## WI_Wino (Sep 27, 2015)

Probably just proteins but a picture really is worth a thousand words.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

WI_Wino said:


> Probably just proteins but a picture really is worth a thousand words.



See attached.


Hope is not a strategy but sometimes it is the reality.


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## WI_Wino (Sep 27, 2015)

Hard to see but could be the start of a bacteria pellicle. Have you tasted the wine? Does it taste off at all?


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

WI_Wino said:


> Hard to see but could be the start of a bacteria pellicle. Have you tasted the wine? Does it taste off at all?



Have not yet but I guess I will have to.

Solution if it is? 

No off odor at this point.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

WI_Wino said:


> Hard to see but could be the start of a bacteria pellicle. Have you tasted the wine? Does it taste off at all?



Ok it tasted fine, young as fermentation ended about 6 months ago. 
I've read about pellicle and it seems to form on the surface of the wine/beer and is lumpy. There is nothing on the surface, although the surface area is only the ID of the neck in a PET carboy, and this is fine like a powder on the carboy surface. Almost like it floated up there as you an see little areas going on up towards the neck.

Since the so2 is 40 I think I'll filter it and keep an eye on it. Unless there are any other ideas or thoughts.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

WI_Wino said:


> Hard to see but could be the start of a bacteria pellicle. Have you tasted the wine? Does it taste off at all?



Oh no!

As I began to filter it I looked down in the carboy and there is stringy white threads on the surface.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

ldmack3 said:


> Oh no!
> 
> As I began to filter it I looked down in the carboy and there is stringy white threads on the surface.



Pics.

Thoughts?


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## ceeaton (Sep 27, 2015)

After composing a poetic post about it being yeast my brain kicked in through the beer and I deleted the original prose, this is all that survived:

"Ah, my brain is working. I see that sometimes when using Chitosan clarifier. Did you clarify it yet and with what?"


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

ceeaton said:


> After composing a poetic post about it being yeast my brain kicked in through the beer and I deleted the original prose, this is all that survived:
> 
> "Ah, my brain is working. I see that sometimes when using Chitosan clarifier. Did you clarify it yet and with what?"



I usually don't use a clarifier other than bentonite or peptic enzyme. In this case bentonite.
On occasion I will use a clarifier but I have nothing in my notes to that effect about this batch. Which leads me to believe I didn't. But could be mistaken.

It is a Showcase Barbera and the instructions state it comes with Chitosan. Is this something particular to Chitosan? Possibly reversed the order?

It's been racked twice since ferm finished and that's been about 8 months.


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## ceeaton (Sep 27, 2015)

Not sure, but that is when I noticed it (using Chitosan). Also don't seem to notice it in a glass carboy verses a better bottle type. Maybe that film normally goes the whole way to the top in a glass carboy (less friction). Need one of our resident physicists to address this.

I could be off my rocker and it might be an infection, but that means I have an infection in one of my bathces and haven't experienced that yet in sampling my wine. Maybe I'm making a really high end vinegar and don't realize it.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

ceeaton said:


> Not sure, but that is when I noticed it (using Chitosan). Also don't seem to notice it in a glass carboy verses a better bottle type. Maybe that film normally goes the whole way to the top in a glass carboy (less friction). Need one of our resident physicists to address this.
> 
> I could be off my rocker and it might be an infection, but that means I have an infection in one of my bathces and haven't experienced that yet in sampling my wine. Maybe I'm making a really high end vinegar and don't realize it.



And the experts say......?


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## PierreR (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm no expert. From experience, this looks similar to what I had happen to one of my reds. Everything looked great, all the way through, did a final racking, topped up the airlock and left it to settle/age in bulk. Checked it 2 months later, and seen the faintest whit ring on the carboy, on the top of the wine. Promptly drew/siphoned the crud off the top, racked into a clean sterile carboy, and added K-sulfite. A week later it returned. I thought protein as well, and thought I'd leave it and filter if the taste wasn't affected. End of this story, 3 weeks ago, I decided it was do or die time. Got ready to filter and bottle... It was die time. It was completely turned. Not sure how to describe the odor. Part wet dog, part chemical. I assumed Flowers of Wine. Never having seen it in person, and before I found this site. My assumption stands till the chemists chime in.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 27, 2015)

PierreR said:


> I'm no expert. From experience, this looks similar to what I had happen to one of my reds. Everything looked great, all the way through, did a final racking, topped up the airlock and left it to settle/age in bulk. Checked it 2 months later, and seen the faintest whit ring on the carboy, on the top of the wine. Promptly drew/siphoned the crud off the top, racked into a clean sterile carboy, and added K-sulfite. A week later it returned. I thought protein as well, and thought I'd leave it and filter if the taste wasn't affected. End of this story, 3 weeks ago, I decided it was do or die time. Got ready to filter and bottle... It was die time. It was completely turned. Not sure how to describe the odor. Part wet dog, part chemical. I assumed Flowers of Wine. Never having seen it in person, and before I found this site. My assumption stands till the chemists chime in.



Thanks. I added more Kmeta, it was already at 40PPM, after filtering.
I'll wait and see.


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## ldmack3 (Sep 29, 2015)

ldmack3 said:


> Thanks. I added more Kmeta, it was already at 40PPM, after filtering.
> I'll wait and see.



I got with Gorge at FVW. He's never seen it. He went to the manuf and here is their reply:

"Hi George,

Not to worry - it’s normal, RARE, but normal. The white substance is from the skin pack; protein overload. I have seen this in my travels with retailers in Ontario, Canada - once racked it might show up again albeit considerably less. If it does happen again it will mostly likely just be a thin ring around the top of the carboy at the surface level.



If possible, please ask your client for the batch code - we like to keep track of all consumer enquiries.



Scott Brooks | Account Manager

Global Vintners Inc.



Now we know! I am relieved.


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## AZMDTed (Sep 29, 2015)

Thanks for posting this message. I have a somewhat similar, but not as bad as yours, situation. I call it a cloudy white film on top of a batch of WE Eclipse Lodi Cab (and earlier this month on an Eclipse Shiraz). I was able the 'suck' it off the top of the Shiraz after two attempts but when I did that with the Cab I saw white milky substance coating the inside of the carboy below the wine line. Not very appetizing looking. I have pictures and a message into WE about it. I hope they come to the same conclusion as GV did. 

I can handle excess protein, I was fearing it could by mycoderma, though I have yet to see a good photo of that. On my Cab it showed up in secondary even though I took it out of primary early (.994) to ensure that it was still fermenting in secondary. That way it should have had a nice CO2 cap on which theoretically should have prevented mycoderma from growing. So I'm happy if it's just protein on steroids.


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## ldmack3 (Oct 15, 2015)

AZMDTed said:


> Thanks for posting this message. I have a somewhat similar, but not as bad as yours, situation. I call it a cloudy white film on top of a batch of WE Eclipse Lodi Cab (and earlier this month on an Eclipse Shiraz). I was able the 'suck' it off the top of the Shiraz after two attempts but when I did that with the Cab I saw white milky substance coating the inside of the carboy below the wine line. Not very appetizing looking. I have pictures and a message into WE about it. I hope they come to the same conclusion as GV did.
> 
> I can handle excess protein, I was fearing it could by mycoderma, though I have yet to see a good photo of that. On my Cab it showed up in secondary even though I took it out of primary early (.994) to ensure that it was still fermenting in secondary. That way it should have had a nice CO2 cap on which theoretically should have prevented mycoderma from growing. So I'm happy if it's just protein on steroids.



Mine has not reappeared yet so hopefully it is done. I was really nasty looking the first time!
Did your kit come with the grape pack?

Just a note. SG of .994 is not really early. I would call that close to finishing. I generally follow the instructions that say to rack at 1.020, although some manufacturers say to leave it in the pail until finished. This sound a little risky to me. But if it works for you....


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## AZMDTed (Oct 15, 2015)

Yes, mine did have a grape pack and I pressed, squeezed and stirred it pretty good every day in primary. I'm pretty sure that's what caused the excess protein, and high tannin level. I won't be beating up the grape packs so much in the future.

I mentioned that for me .994 was a little early because in my experience this kit will go down to .990 after a week in primary. That doesn't leave much, if any, action during secondary. On this kit I racked at 5 days instead of the 7, and I think in general the WE kit instructions that I've made mention the SG as a minimum to be at, not necessarily as the time to rack. I've not made many other kits so others could do it differently.

Thanks for your post, it did help put me on the path to understanding my wine issue. Bottom line for my lesson learned is: Don't try to squeeze everything out of the grape pack.


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## ldmack3 (Oct 21, 2015)

AZMDTed said:


> Yes, mine did have a grape pack and I pressed, squeezed and stirred it pretty good every day in primary. I'm pretty sure that's what caused the excess protein, and high tannin level. I won't be beating up the grape packs so much in the future.
> 
> I mentioned that for me .994 was a little early because in my experience this kit will go down to .990 after a week in primary. That doesn't leave much, if any, action during secondary. On this kit I racked at 5 days instead of the 7, and I think in general the WE kit instructions that I've made mention the SG as a minimum to be at, not necessarily as the time to rack. I've not made many other kits so others could do it differently.
> 
> Thanks for your post, it did help put me on the path to understanding my wine issue. Bottom line for my lesson learned is: Don't try to squeeze everything out of the grape pack.



Hummmm. I squeeze mine pretty good too at the end. Perhaps that is it. Didn't think of that. Thanks!


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## Dentman (Dec 19, 2015)

Any update on the white film ring? I have a batch of dragon blood where I used lots of various fruits and I have an identical appearing carboy.


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## ColemanM (Dec 19, 2015)

I had an RJS cab Zin Merlot that had that ring. I added Cabernet pressed grape skins to it. Had a horrible creamy slime at the top of the carboy. I kept sprinkling kmeta on top of it to no avail. Still tasted good so I hit it with the chitosan (I don't use clarifiers anymore) and that took care of it.


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## biscmc (Mar 5, 2016)

Hello All: Longtime lurker, first-time poster.

I've been enjoying this hobby for about 3 years now, and have about 15 kits under my belt, 9 of which are currently bulk-aging up to the 2-year mark. 

I experienced a very similar creamy white film on a WE LE Super Tuscan. I racked and hit it with K-Meta on at least 2 occasions and the film would keep returning. I thought the film was only on the surface, so I topped of the carboy with a similar wine and left 1" of headspace. Imagine my dismay when I racked again and I found this film was actually 6" deep. The film on the glass of the carboy was exactly as described in ldmack3's photos above. The wine smelled of sauerkraut and was ruined.

I am somewhat relieved that some of you have discovered that this issue may be due to excess proteins. Just as some of you have observed, I tried to get out as much juice / tannin as possible by squeezing the grape bag to excess. 

A few days ago, a noticed a similar film developing on a CCS Yakima-Valley Merlot that had been in the secondary for 2 weeks. I racked it off the lees, added another dose of bentonite, and stirred well with a wine whip. 

I'll give the wine a good stir every few days, and will see if that takes care of the problem. I'd rather not add the fining agents unless I absolutely have to. 

I will let you all know how this works out.


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## biscmc (Sep 1, 2016)

Finally, months later, and with a lot of experimentation, I have managed to take care of the above problem. 

Racking, and hitting with large doses of K-meta did not solve the issue. The film kept returning. 

Following the protein overload theory, I tried additional bentonite. While this pulled some solids out of the wine, it did not rectify the issue, and the film returned within a week. 

I applied sorbate, hoping that it would make the environment unsuitable for anything to grow. The film returned. 

Kieselsol managed to pull a few solids out of the wine, but didn't solve the problem. 

In the end, Chitosan worked like a charm. 

The unfortunate part of this learning experience was the excessive number of rackings that took place to accomplish this, which ultimately thinned the wine down to a point where it will be fairly thin on the palette. At least in the future I will not need to tip a kit gone sour down the sink again due to this issue.


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## AZMDTed (Sep 1, 2016)

Thank you for following up and posting. Glad you figured out what works for you.


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