# Saignee-Real time help



## CDrew (Oct 5, 2019)

Today was Mourvedre day and wouldn't you know it, there was an extra 100 pounds give or take that needed a home. So I got my usual 300 and an extra hundred for Rose.

So the grapes were very nice brix 25 off a hillside vineyard in Contra Costa County near Brentwood.

My plan is to let the grapes sit about 6 hours on the skins and press later today. Does that sound about right?

-Do I sulfite now?
-Yeast is limited to Avante and RP15 on hand. Can I just use the Avante? Hoping so since I have a lot of it.
-I plan to ferment in Carboys. I'm thinking 100 pounds in 2 6 gallon should given enough head space.
-When does it get racked off the lees? When fermentation is over or before to clean it up?
-Temp control is non-existent, but garage is pretty cold at night. Sound OK?
-Would really like to know how to sulfite it to keep it from browning too much.

Any help appreciated.


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## NorCal (Oct 5, 2019)

I pull the juice off ASAP. You can always add red wine back in to add color. For my Rose, I’ll water back to 22-23, aciduate to 3.3-3.4 and ferment away.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 5, 2019)

Just crushed my Grenache for a Rose. This is only my second try at it so thanks for the post @CDrew and thanks for the tip @NorCal


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## CDrew (Oct 6, 2019)

NorCal said:


> I pull the juice off ASAP. You can always add red wine back in to add color. For my Rose, I’ll water back to 22-23, aciduate to 3.3-3.4 and ferment away.



Thanks for the reply. I have to say, I'm just going forward. The Brix was likely too high at 25 and the pH 3.7 ish but I'll adjust the acid later. I have about 8 gallons of pressed mouvedre juice with a bit of a nice pink color. It's already fermenting per the airlock just a few hours after pitching the yeast. There is also the 30 gallons or so of actual mourvedre wine. Yeast got pitched tonight so I hope to see some cap formation tomorrow. I put the pressed skins from the Rose back into the main ferment, so hoping that improves the overall wine.


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## Johnd (Oct 6, 2019)

CDrew said:


> Thanks for the reply. I have to say, I'm just going forward. The Brix was likely too high at 25 and the pH 3.7 ish but I'll adjust the acid later. I have about 8 gallons of pressed mouvedre juice with a bit of a nice pink color. It's already fermenting per the airlock just a few hours after pitching the yeast. There is also the 30 gallons or so of actual mourvedre wine. Yeast got pitched tonight so I hope to see some cap formation tomorrow. I put the pressed skins from the Rose back into the main ferment, so hoping that improves the overall wine.



Always a better result when acid is adjusted prefermentation.......


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## CDrew (Oct 6, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Always a better result when acid is adjusted prefermentation.......



I hear you. Time budget just didn't allow. We had 10 guests for dinner, and literally had just shut off the hose cleaning up the press, when the first one showed up. My wife was already unhappy I'd been gone most of the day and then busy dealing with grapes, sticky fermentors, pressing, measuring, pitching yeast, and clean up. Next time this happens it will be with more prep.


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## NorCal (Oct 7, 2019)

CDrew said:


> I hear you. Time budget just didn't allow. We had 10 guests for dinner, and literally had just shut off the hose cleaning up the press, when the first one showed up. My wife was already unhappy I'd been gone most of the day and then busy dealing with grapes, sticky fermentors, pressing, measuring, pitching yeast, and clean up. Next time this happens it will be with more prep.


@4score and I have talked about how many winemaking decisions are made because of “logistics” reasons and in the end, it was quite frequent.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 7, 2019)

NorCal said:


> @4score and I have talked about how many winemaking decisions are made because of “logistics” reasons and in the end, it was quite frequent.



I absolutely agree and not only for the home winemaker but for commercial as well.


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## CDrew (Oct 10, 2019)

I racked the Rose into a 5 gallon carboy tonight plus 1/2 gallon growler., It's done fermenting already. It's cloudy but a bit pink. I'm hoping it clears but if not, it's an experiment. I do not like having only a small overage because that's all I have for topping after subsequent rackings.

I also did something I've never done. I broke a carboy. I was cleaning with Oxyclean which is slippery as heck and one got away from me and broke on the driveway. No harm done but a wake up that these things are dangerous.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 10, 2019)

I also did something I've never done. I broke a carboy. [/QUOTE]

Congrats, you are now in the club!


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## CDrew (Oct 14, 2019)

Racked this again today off the yeast sediment. The wine is the slightest pale pink and I may in the end darken it with some of the Mourvedre that was made at the same time.

It's really good, despite being 9 days from the vine. Clean taste, nice acid balance, prob too much alcohol for the style but I'm quite happy for an ad-hoc effort. I'll bottle in 6 months or so and save for another 6 months or year. Even the wife thought it was good.

Anyway, I'll definitely do this again next year. It's easy to divert 100 pounds of grapes and that nets about 6 gallons so maybe 2-2.5 cases of bottled wine.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 14, 2019)

How is the red Mourvedre with the additional skins? Also and this may be a style thing but do you put your Rose's through MLF?


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## CDrew (Oct 14, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> How is the red Mourvedre with the additional skins? Also and this may be a style thing but do you put your Rose's through MLF?



I wrestled with this too. Likely no, based on tasting today. I think I'm going to sulfite again to preserve the color in the next day or two and just see what happens. There must be CH16 floating around in my garage since both open fermentations of the Mourvedre got it dosed early on.

Like I said, I'm winging this, and basically making a Rose the way I'd normally make a red wine. Even used Avante (red wine) yeast.

See my other thread regarding the rest of the Mourvedre. There is both good and bad news.


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## CDrew (Dec 7, 2019)

Something odd happening here. Wine is stored in the wine closet at 62F roughly. The wine has been still since Mid October. Out of the blue, it's bubbling again. Very odd and the wine otherwise looks and tastes fine. Anyone think this could be a spontaneous MLF? I added no MLF bacteria. And there is just a dusting of sediment. Anyway, I'm going to ride it out and see what happens. Tempted to bottle and have a petnat. 

And hard to get a picture of this. This is a flashight behind the neck of the carboy and changes the color a bit.


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## NorCal (Dec 8, 2019)

CDrew said:


> Something odd happening here. Wine is stored in the wine closet at 62F roughly. The wine has been still since Mid October. Out of the blue, it's bubbling again. Very odd and the wine otherwise looks and tastes fine. Anyone think this could be a spontaneous MLF? I added no MLF bacteria. And there is just a dusting of sediment. Anyway, I'm going to ride it out and see what happens. Tempted to bottle and have a petnat.
> 
> And hard to get a picture of this. This is a flashight behind the neck of the carboy and changes the color a bit.
> 
> ...



My mlf in carboys looks similar, tiny bubbles. Could take a while to complete at these temps.


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## CDrew (Dec 9, 2019)

The new fermentation whatever it is, is already slowing. Temp has warmed 2 degrees to 64F. Still lots of bubbles coming up though. It almost has to be MLF. Wine still looking good with no funny smells or taste. It's odd for sure, but interesting. I don't really have enough (5 gallons) to be worth doing much testing.

Any thoughts on oak for Rose? Thinking just a tiny hint of it.

I plan to bottle in the spring.


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## stickman (Dec 10, 2019)

As they say, make it to your taste, it's your wine, though with a light wine for myself I would probably leave the oak out.


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## CDrew (Dec 10, 2019)

Thanks. I've never made a Rose before so it's all new territory. I don't like sweet wines so it's going to be a dry Rose regardless.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 11, 2019)

CDrew said:


> Thanks. I've never made a Rose before so it's all new territory. I don't like sweet wines so it's going to be a dry Rose regardless.



I made 2 Rose's this year for the first time, both three gallon batches. Never thought about oaking them but I did slightly oak 2 whites, a Voignier and a Petit Manseng. Both so far are kind of nice.


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## CDrew (Feb 1, 2020)

Going to update this with a question. The spontaneous ferment whatever it was is over. But the wine, though clear still is just slightly hazy, as in you can see through it but couldn't read a newspaper through it. Tastes pretty good though. I actually thought about adding EX-V to it as a pectinase and see if that cleared it.

What's the most expedient way to deal with that? Filtration? Bentonite? Sparkolloid? This is all new territory for me. I've been meaning to buy a filter set up from @allinonewinepump and may do that to facilitate bottling this Rose.

I want to keep interventions to a minimum and I have exactly 5 gallons so no chance to make up losses. I want to bottle around April.

Any comments appreciated.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 2, 2020)

I'd try Sparkolloid prior to filtering.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 2, 2020)

FWIW, whenever I make a wine I don't want to go through MLF I always add Lysozyme after AF. I realize it's not necessarily considered a clearing agent but it does help. My Rose's were clear in early December with no other clearing agents, step filtered with a 1 then .5 micron filter and bottled in mid December. Norcal mentioned in an earlier post the spontaneous MLF could take some time to complete and this could be causing the slight cloudiness. I don't know if Lysozyme is a birth control like Sorbate or an inhibitor. The other thing that puzzles me is the critical SO2 tolerances with MLF and if the wine is sulfited heavily enough how the wild MLB could actually have started. If it were mine I might want to try getting the SO2 level up to 50 ppm and add Lysozyme prior to filtering.


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## Johnd (Feb 2, 2020)

Before trying to guess at the next course of action, I’d want to know what happened, so that I could understand what I was dealing with. Have you taken a SG on the wine since the incident? How about running a chromatography? I think if we can figure that out, the solution(s) will be revealed.


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## CDrew (Feb 2, 2020)

Good suggestions. ANd thanks.

Brix on the +5/-5 hydrometer is around -2, so I think it's bone dry.

But no on the chromatography. I guess I'm being lazy but have not done that. I'm nearly certain that second fermentation was MLF though. I'll try and do that this next week. Maybe I'm looking for a good reason to buy a filtration set up!


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## CDrew (Apr 12, 2020)

So some time has gone by, and adjusted the TA up by 0.5gm/L to 6.2 then bottled. Got 2 cases plus stragglers. It's been in the bottle for a week. tonight was the first taste test.

Ya know, it's pretty good. I don't know how a Mourvedre Rose is supposed to taste, but it's good enough for a first effort. It dropped a few diamonds in the fridge. The wife likes it too. I'm going to give this a passing grade. I would serve it to friends with a nod to the idea its a first effort. Still, I'm pleased with this, considering, the red wine yeast, the grapes which looked nice but had this odd brownish character in the juice.

The Rose is more orange than pink, so that's something to work on for next year. But for sure, all remaining bottles of this will be consumed in the next year.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 13, 2020)

CDrew said:


> So some time has gone by, and adjusted the TA up by 0.5gm/L to 6.2 then bottled. Got 2 cases plus stragglers. It's been in the bottle for a week. tonight was the first taste test.
> 
> Ya know, it's pretty good. I don't know how a Mourvedre Rose is supposed to taste, but it's good enough for a first effort. It dropped a few diamonds in the fridge. The wife likes it too. I'm going to give this a passing grade. I would serve it to friends with a nod to the idea its a first effort. Still, I'm pleased with this, considering, the red wine yeast, the grapes which looked nice but had this odd brownish character in the juice.
> 
> ...



I have a 50/50 Nebbiolo/Sangiovese Rose and similar to you I'm not quite sure what it's supposed to taste like. But it doesn't suck for a 7 month old wine.


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## BI81 (May 7, 2020)

@CDrew did you end up adding anything or filtering? The wine looks clear in your pic


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## CDrew (May 7, 2020)

BI81 said:


> @CDrew did you end up adding anything or filtering? The wine looks clear in your pic



Nope. In the end, no filtering or fining. And it's stayed nice and clear. So like most things in wine making, time helps.


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## Ajmassa (May 8, 2020)

Gotta love rosè wine. —-there are literally no rules!!!
So I don’t think anyone can really say what YOUR wine ‘supposed’ to taste like. As long as it’s good then that’s a win in my book. 

I made one once from a kit. A winexpert Selections Sauvignon Blanc w/ a red pack for color & backsweetening (I added all upfront & went dry). It was delicious and disappeared quick. Looking forward to making another. Although I am being realistic since I won’t be using a grape that’s common in rosè unlike you guys. I see Mourvèdre and Sangiovese rosè’s often. Shot in the dark here with Malbec.

Maybe I’ll call it- “Malbec Blanc”. And when I give it out I’ll just say, Duh! It’s Malbec Blanc. It’s SUPPOSED to look and taste like that!


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## BI81 (May 8, 2020)

Awesome, glad to hear you were able to clear without any fining. Your pic is making me thirsty!!


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## Ajmassa (May 9, 2020)

Well the saignee rosè plan was fun while it lasted. I broke off a portion and planned to press right away to not overdo the color. Unfortunately the juice coming out of the crusher was already much darker than anticipated. Pressed 1st half immediately anyway. 2nd half tossed whole clusters straight to press. Time on skins only time it took to run through the press.
I’m going to just combine everything back together likely. I don’t believe that juice this dark will be able to be a rosè. 
What do you think?
(Comparison photos the “rosè” is on the left)


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## mainshipfred (May 9, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Well the saignee rosè plan was fun while it lasted. I broke off a portion and planned to press right away to not overdo the color. Unfortunately the juice coming out of the crusher was already much darker than anticipated. Pressed 1st half immediately anyway. 2nd half tossed whole clusters straight to press. Time on skins only time it took to run through the press.
> I’m going to just combine everything back together likely. I don’t believe that juice this dark will be able to be a rosè.
> What do you think?
> (Comparison photos the “rosè” is on the left)
> ...



Just going to throw this out there and I don't remember what mine looked like, but I bet the wine once cleared will be substantially lighter.


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## cmason1957 (May 9, 2020)

I agree with Fred, I think I would have let it go. And given it the old college try.


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## CDrew (May 9, 2020)

I'd give it a go too. You have a nice pink color, maybe redder than you want, but you will treat it like a fruity white wine and consume it early. Color will for sure lighten up.


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## CDrew (Nov 12, 2020)

And My Rosè from 2019 is gone. Wife drank it all. Or most of it, because I had a bit too. Daughter also liked it. It was pretty good in the end, and maybe better than all the other wine associated with this Mourvedre. But happy to have it gone to make way for the 2020 (Which, BTW, looks like a true winner). 2019 was 2 cases, 2020 will be 4 cases. Funny how that works.

Lots of good learning here. And I'm thinking 2020 will be the year to learn about lysozyme, bentonite, cold proofing and other strange concepts.

But from a home wine making perspective, Rosè is easy and a crowd pleaser, especially in the summer. I had kind of dismissed Rosè before this, but it works, and people like it because it isn't complicated or difficult to understand, it's just good to drink in the moment. And it's ready to drink in 6 months.


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## Booty Juice (Nov 12, 2020)

An easy, low intervention potential solution might be 3 egg white, a bit of water (3 tablespoons or thereabouts), and a pinch of salt. Stir in for a couple minutes. I do this if I want to fine and/or strip a bit of tannins (which will happen).


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## David Lewis (Nov 12, 2020)

I think that you have inspired me to give this a shot next year. What yeast did you end up using/and what yeast are you thinking about trying in the future? Thanks for the update!


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## CDrew (Nov 13, 2020)

David Lewis said:


> I think that you have inspired me to give this a shot next year. What yeast did you end up using/and what yeast are you thinking about trying in the future? Thanks for the update!



Lol. There is no "shot". Rosè is about as easy as it gets. For yeast in 2019, I used what I had, which was Avante, a red wine yeast . And because it chews up too much Malic acid, I'd likely not use it again in a Rose. But it worked great. A true workhorse.

This year 2020, I used D21 for the Rose, which is also a red wine yeast, but also used in some white wines too. My previous experience with D21 in 2018 was great. And it was excellent again this year. Another great all around yeast. Low nutrient requirements and no issues.

But going forward, I'll use the H2S preventing yeasts like Avante and Allegro. I wanted some TR-313 for the Sauvignon Blanc, but it's a bit hard to find. Allegro is another Renaissance H2S preventing yeast for white wines. I'm using it now for some Sauvignon Blanc and it's a really excellent choice. FOr me it took off well, and is currently fermenting without bad smells or even a hint of a problem. The only problem is you have to buy 500gm at a time. I'm ok with that, but just be aware. I've done the year to year experiment, and the yeast will still be good a year later if you vacuum seal and store in the fridge. So buying so much at a time is not an issue.

But I have to say, that I don't think the yeast you use, matters that much. Use what you know works. To me, it only makes sense to use the high tech Renaissance yeasts that are incapable of H2S production. In my limited experience they give you super clean and superfast, trouble free fermentations. But any future Rosè, I'll use the Allegro.


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## AaronSC (Nov 16, 2020)

I'm making Malbec rosé and Barbera rosé this year and hoping to have them bottled in early 2020 -9 gallons of each.

Interesting think -I was wine tasting in the local area this weekend and I got to talk to the wine maker at one of my favorites. He's bottling his whites and rosés in December -says that once they are settled they are generally ready to go!

-Aaron


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## Booty Juice (Nov 21, 2020)

AaronSC said:


> He's bottling his whites and rosés in December -says that once they are settled they are generally ready to go!
> 
> -Aaron



VERY TEMPTED. 

I usually wait until warm weather.


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## CDrew (Nov 21, 2020)

Mine last year did not clear until April. But as soon as it was clear I bottled. Commercial guys can filter which likely speeds up their process.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 21, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Mine last year did not clear until April. But as soon as it was clear I bottled. Commercial guys can filter which likely speeds up their process.


 Using the winter to cold crash my rose’s. One from spring (very clear) and one from now (still fermenting)— and likely bottling at the same time. Still haven’t got myself a filter setup yet. Not sure if it’s necessary tho.


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## CDrew (Dec 18, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Using the winter to cold crash my rose’s. One from spring (very clear) and one from now (still fermenting)— and likely bottling at the same time. Still haven’t got myself a filter setup yet. Not sure if it’s necessary tho.



I have a question about that. It's going to get to 34F tonight here in Sacramento which is about as cold as it ever gets. I'm going to set outside 10 gallons of Rose' which is currently in two 5 gallon Sanke kegs. Do you need to rack while still cold, or will the precipitated crystals stay as crystals when the wine warms back up? And is one night enough? I'm really not ready to rack it yet, but would like to avoid future wine diamonds.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 18, 2020)

CDrew said:


> I have a question about that. It's going to get to 34F tonight here in Sacramento which is about as cold as it ever gets. I'm going to set outside 10 gallons of Rose' which is currently in two 5 gallon Sanke kegs. Do you need to rack while still cold, or will the precipitated crystals stay as crystals when the wine warms back up? And is one night enough? I'm really not ready to rack it yet, but would like to avoid future wine diamonds.



I’m sure one night is better than no nights. Longer the better tho. I got some reflective duct insulation rolls from work and made some carboy sleeves. Once the carboys temps dropped down I wrapped them in the insulation and towels, and stuffed some towels in the milk crates to keep em cold throughout the day. Kept in the shed out of the sun light.
they were maintaining in the low 40’s even as we had big temp high/low swings. i checked temps daily. 

they say 2-3 weeks is standard. If using antacid chems that’s what they suggest as well. And I can say that in my experience the pretty little shiny crystals at the bottom remained there regardless of temps. I’ll often get fallout just from a couple months at 55-60° in my basement actually. And no I did not rack cold. Letting it get back to room temp and clear the cold haze look & allow anything suspended to drop out seemed like the move. This is just what I did — not sure if it’s proper procedure or not though


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## Booty Juice (Dec 18, 2020)

I don't keep track of every chrystal, but I don't think I've had any "melt" when temps warmed up. My Rose' is outside 24/7 in a covered shady spot, and will be until the weather changes and I remember to bring it back in.


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## NorCal (Dec 19, 2020)

CDrew said:


> I have a question about that. It's going to get to 34F tonight here in Sacramento which is about as cold as it ever gets. I'm going to set outside 10 gallons of Rose' which is currently in two 5 gallon Sanke kegs. Do you need to rack while still cold, or will the precipitated crystals stay as crystals when the wine warms back up? And is one night enough? I'm really not ready to rack it yet, but would like to avoid future wine diamonds.


Hey Drew, I agree with @Ajmassa, one evening is better than none, but let it ride while the temps are low. It is a one way reaction, so no hurry to rack.


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## CDrew (Dec 19, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Hey Drew, I agree with @Ajmassa, one evening is better than none, but let it ride while the temps are low. It is a one way reaction, so no hurry to rack.



Thanks. Funny I just checked the temp and the wine only got to 41F. I'm going to go a few more nights. Looks like at least 2 more in the low 30s.


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