# Cost vs Benefit: Beer



## richmke

Let me start out by saying that I get it that some people brew beer and make wine for the fun of it.

I make wine because I like the wine, and I save a lot of money vs buying commercial wine. 

I actually made a few batches of beer (Mr. Beer) prior to making wine. I didn't like it because I didn't know which beers to make. Now that I know what beer I like, I thought about going back to brewing beer.

Let's say that a kit wine is 1/2 the cost of an equivalent commercial wine. I can make a $20 bottle of wine for $10 (all-in), or save $300 per kit.

With beer, the "profit" of beer making is no so great. I like Blue Moon, and can buy an extract kit for about $35, or an all-grain kit for about $25. That makes 5 gallons, or 53 12oz bottles. I can buy Blue Moon for about $1 a bottle. That means I am saving $18 to $28 per 5 gallons. It is tough to justify all the work for that profit. It would also take me forever to drink 5 gallons.


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## ibglowin

LOL

Me to. Every week there is another new "micro brew" operation opening here in NM. Our own local Coop which I am a member of opened a year ago and sold almost 2X what they thought they would sell in the first year so I started looking into making beer instead of wine and like you I found that it just didn't add up the way wine did. I like a nice IPA during the Summer and it is certainly easy enough to purchase a really good one locally or even a locally bottled one that is amazing as well for $1-2 a pint and all I have to do is pop a top or open my Growler...........


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## Spikedlemon

Here I am reading your prices for beer and I couldn't even buy a bottle of swill in a 24pack for $1/bottle. 

Decent beer is ~$2+/bttl in in case. (much more as a single)
Craft beer is closer to $3-5 / bottle. 

I see the cost benefit in Canada. Too many sin taxes and gov't mandated minimum prices.


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## ibglowin

You guys have Universal Health Care paid for (at least in part) by the taxes levied on all forms of alcohol, cigarettes etc. We don't so altho we have cheap booze we pay hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of $$$$ each month to insurance companies and hope we don't actually need any service.

Its a wash at worst and you actually might come out ahead depending on how much you sin! LOL



Spikedlemon said:


> I see the cost benefit in Canada. Too many sin taxes and gov't mandated minimum prices.


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## ceeaton

When I was making a lot of beer (more than I was allowed to per year legally), I bought 55 lb sacks of Maris Otter whole grain and used anywhere from 6-9 lbs per 5 gallon batch to whip up a good English Bitter. So I was paying less than $1 per lb of grain. I used liquid yeast and repitched for 5 or so batches, and ordered my hops from Freshops in bulk every November. I would keg and force carbonate, so I could be drinking it within two weeks of making the batch. I easily made a batch for under $15 whereas the beer I enjoyed was over $35 per case (usually more). I think if you do the math it is quite worth it. The time to make the initial wort is on the high side and if you knew how much weight I gained then you might second think drinking that much beer in a year. Wine is much healthier in my opinion.


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## Elmer

As Ceeaston noted the savings start with All grain.
When I was making extract recipe I was spending $50 to $60, 3/4 of the cost was for extract!
My last batch of AG was a blonde (a more hoppy tasting corrona) 44 bottles for less than $20.
Around here you buy a 12 pack of corrona for $14.

Craft beer around here is approx $14-$16 a 12 pack.

With all grain I am spending more money on hops than grain!


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## jswordy

All grain is expensive when you start to become a gear-head and you need to have all that extra equipment. I am in the alcohol "hobby" first and foremost for cheap drinks, and I can't justify the equipment expense to really do all grain right. I may try brew in a bag sometime, though.

I am very satisfied using extracts as a base with steeped grains. Equipment needs are nil. Time demands are also much less for extract based brewing, and that is VERY important to me. Mostly I use my wine equipment double-duty. I had to buy an 8-gallon SS pot to boil a whole batch without adding water later. 

I wait until I can get 6 extract jugs cheap with free shipping (a LOT of beer!) and then I order. Keep it in the fridge, it lasts forever. I'm a very good shopper for price on it.

Likewise, I buy yeast, grain and supplies on sale ONLY, free shipping ONLY. Yeast and grain go in the fridge, too. I bottle condition (saves equipment costs). 

Currently, my beers are running me between 60 and 75 cents a bottle to produce, all done and ready to pour. For comparison, I can get 18-packs of Dos Equis for $18.99 here, so I am saving $5 at 75 cents a bottle. I can get Sam Adams for $15.99 a 12-pack, so I save about the same at 75 cents a bottle. The chief savings where I live comes from not paying the sin taxes on it.

But the flavor of the beer is much better. It matches what I like better, too. It is usually equivalent to beers that cost $10 a six-pack and up. So, at $39.95 a case for a "craft," "small batch" imported commercial beer, I am saving more than half.

As far as beer vs. wine, there are much greater savings in home wine production vs. extract brewing. I can produce a 750 ml bottle of lower-end wine for as little as $1, and even my higher-quality wines are never higher than $4 a bottle.

I chiefly got into beer to see if I could do it. Yup, I can. Now I am trying to use up supplies and cut back on beer, since the beer is expanding my waistline - a hidden drawback to all that extra estrogenic activity from consuming hops and grains. There is a huge winemaking week ahead for me in September.

So there ya go... Your mileage may vary.


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## wineforfun

ibglowin said:


> You guys have *Universal Health Care paid for*



Yes they do, but they also may be waiting for months to get service, ie: MRI, specialist, etc. When I was competing on a regular basis, I had many Canadian friends complain of that system. We used to tear/strain numerous muscles, ligaments, etc. We would tell them to just go get an MRI and quit guessing what was wrong, they would tell us it was at least 3 months before they could get in.
You are correct, some of us pay dearly each month(I am fortunate to have low premiums with great coverage at my employer) but we are comparing apples to oranges..............or muscato to merlot.

My opinion on the original question is you have to calculate and put a dollar amount on your time too, if you really want to get down to it.
For me, I just enjoy creating things so as long as it isn't costing me anything (above what buying wine would cost) then I am ok with it. We all need hobbies.
Like others have said, I can also make a pretty decent wine compared to some I have bought.
On a side note, I also roast my own coffee beans, grind them and hand brew them. I do it for the same reason, just like to create things. It costs me approx. .30 - .50 per cup, depending on bean I use.
I think a lot of it just comes down to personal preference and what you like to do.


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## ceeaton

wineforfun said:


> Yes they do, but they also may be waiting for months to get service, ie: MRI, specialist, etc. When I was competing on a regular basis, I had many Canadian friends complain of that system. We used to tear/strain numerous muscles, ligaments, etc. We would tell them to just go get an MRI and quit guessing what was wrong, they would tell us it was at least 3 months before they could get in.
> You are correct, some of us pay dearly each month(I am fortunate to have low premiums with great coverage at my employer) but we are comparing apples to oranges..............or muscato to merlot.



I have very affordable health care through my work. I'd be sunk if I lived in Canada, with two Type I diabetics. They average $11K per year for each of them, I might pay $2000 total of that in a bad year, so I'm sticking with what I've got. I've had Canadian acquaintances that told me if you are a healthy individual without any issues, it is a great system. If you have an issue, they go across the border and pay through the nose in the U.S system.


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## BernardSmith

Going back to the original issue - I think beer kits are not inexpensive but I make beer from whole grains and adjuncts and the cost is not nearly as high. But that said, home brewing allows us to make the beers we want to make and want to drink.


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## jswordy

wineforfun said:


> Yes they do, but they also may be waiting for months to get service, ie: MRI, specialist, etc. When I was competing on a regular basis, I had many Canadian friends complain of that system. We used to tear/strain numerous muscles, ligaments, etc. We would tell them to just go get an MRI and quit guessing what was wrong, they would tell us it was at least 3 months before they could get in.
> You are correct, some of us pay dearly each month(I am fortunate to have low premiums with great coverage at my employer) but we are comparing apples to oranges..............or muscato to merlot.



My BIL and his family live in Canada. They never wait. That is pretty much a contrived argument for the US political market. There are always gripers in every system, so it is easy to cherry-pick those or carefully craft the circumstances to make a compelling argument when it is made entirely out of context. The overall Canadian data are favorable.

An MRI for a muscle tear or strain? You're kidding. Only in the USA!  Part of the reason our healthcare costs are out of control. 

BIL broke his leg (which is of course something serious for which you do need medical intervention) in the US, while visiting our area once. Pulled out his Canadian insurance card at the hospital, and that was that. All was paid for.

He will tell you that if you are a Canadian attempting to use high level services for comparatively minor injuries, you will have to wait. But you do get served. And his family never waits any longer than a US family does for an appointment. That's because they don't abuse the system.

He will also readily tell you they pay higher taxes for the service. But no one in Canada risks bankruptcy from a single serious medical event like they do in the USA. If you don't think that's a real deal here, you should speak to my other friend, who owns lots of apartments and houses. He says by far the biggest ding against renters' credit is a single serious medical event they struggle to pay back. He says he usually cuts them slack on that, if all else is well. With universal healthcare, they would be free of that worry. Just like people in all the other developed countries of the world.


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## wineforfun

jswordy said:


> An MRI for a muscle tear or strain? You're kidding. Only in the USA!



Seriously? Then explain how I was to know I had a bicep tendon ready to separate from the bone and my rotator torn in two places? 
Take some ibuprofen? Did it, doesn't diagnose anything.
An X-ray? Don't think so, did it, that shows no more than bone damage, not tendon and ligaments. 
Someone "feeling around"? Don't think so. 
Only step left is MRI.

How do you think an athlete figures out if an ACL, MCL, etc. is torn or not? 

These examples are the point of an MRI. 

Not sure what to make of the whole BIL comment. All I can tell you is what numerous Canadian athletes on a strongman message board used to tell us. Being I don't live there, I can't comment for a fact.


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## BernardSmith

Sorry DJ , but the data themselves very strongly suggest that Canadians' access to and benefits from their healthcare system are by far much better than the access we have to our healthcare system and the benefits we think we get from ours. (see for example the work of Wm. Cockerham - who has no political ax to grind )... Infant mortality and longevity and life expectancy after a diagnosis of a serious and life threatening condition are all significantly worse in the USA than just about any other industrialized country on the planet. That there are anecdotal examples to contradict this does not itself challenge the data. (Greece has an infant mortality rate of 2.3 deaths per 1000 births - ours is 6.1 . In 2010, male life expectancy in the USA was 76.2 years. In Italy it was 79.4 (Cockerham , Medical Sociology , 2016 pps 388 and 389) - Canada's infant mortality for the same time period was 4.9 deaths per 1000 births and their longevity for males was 78.8 years.... But hey! We have private insurance...


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## Mismost

wineforfun said:


> Seriously? Then explain how I was to know I had a bicep tendon ready to separate from the bone and my rotator torn in two places?
> Take some ibuprofen? Did it, doesn't diagnose anything.
> An X-ray? Don't think so, did it, that shows no more than bone damage, not tendon and ligaments.
> Someone "feeling around"? Don't think so.
> Only step left is MRI.
> 
> How do you think an athlete figures out if an ACL, MCL, etc. is torn or not?
> 
> These examples are the point of an MRI.
> 
> Not sure what to make of the whole BIL comment. All I can tell you is what numerous Canadian athletes on a strongman message board used to tell us. Being I don't live there, I can't comment for a fact.



DJ...I happen to think our health care would be much better if we spent money on MORE MRI machines instead of Ohhh, say a "mission" to Mars. The mission is to spend big amounts of tax dollars. I suspect one day they will discover that is no freaking air out there to breathe and that my friend is very hazardous to ones health. Plenty of hot air down here for free.


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## wineforfun

BernardSmith said:


> Sorry DJ , but the data themselves very strongly suggest that Canadians' access to and benefits from their healthcare system are by far much better than the access we have to our healthcare system and the benefits we think we get from ours. (see for example the work of Wm. Cockerham - who has no political ax to grind )... Infant mortality and longevity and life expectancy after a diagnosis of a serious and life threatening condition are all significantly worse in the USA than just about any other industrialized country on the planet. That there are anecdotal examples to contradict this does not itself challenge the data. (Greece has an infant mortality rate of 2.3 deaths per 1000 births - ours is 6.1 . In 2010, male life expectancy in the USA was 76.2 years. In Italy it was 79.4 (Cockerham , Medical Sociology , 2016 pps 388 and 389) - Canada's infant mortality for the same time period was 4.9 deaths per 1000 births and their longevity for males was 78.8 years.... But hey! We have private insurance...



Bernard,
Not arguing the point for or against Canadian, Universal, etc. healthcare. Because for me, I have excellent healthcare and costs. But I am in the minority.


My point was the comment about getting an MRI due to a muscle tear. I had competed at a pretty high level for over a year with quite a bit of pain in my shoulder/bicep area. I was always "oh, it will go away". Gob on the icee hot, and keep moving. Well, after a year, and then being able not to lift a 20lb. dumbbell when I used to handle 120lb. dumbbells, it was time to see what was wrong. 
The only way to know was an MRI. The same thing holds true for any professional athlete with muscle, ligament or tendon issues.


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## Spikedlemon

Wow. My brief rant about cost justification to brew/vint alcohol at home quickly got out of hand.

The point I was trying to make is that it really depends on your regional costs to understand if there's a financial benefit.


Back off-topic...
As a Canadian: I understand that there are wait times for elective diagnostics & surgeries. This isn't unknown - and emergency procedures are, obviously, given much higher priority. In fact: the OECD, in 2013, had quite a scathing report that noted Canada's "need for reduced waiting time". http://www.quotidianosanita.it/allegati/allegato2476022.pdf
But delays are offset where I can use private clinics in many cases, within Canada, covered part or entirely by my provincial health plan for diagnostics. From my vantage point: there shouldn't be an issue with MRI wait times for @wineforfun 's buddy going through the right channels.
I am fortunate, in that, my employer has additional health insurance coverage that provides me additional options. And further fortunate, in OECD's report broken down by province, my own performed near the top within the country.

I'd rather not get into the politics of universal health care policies. Because, in the end, I believe we all deserve better than what our politicians have put before us.


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## wineforfun

Spikedlemon said:


> I believe we all deserve better than what our politicians have put before us.



Best statement in this thread.


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## jswordy

Spikedlemon said:


> Wow. My brief rant about cost justification to brew/vint alcohol at home quickly got out of hand.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is that it really depends on your regional costs to understand if there's a financial benefit.
> 
> 
> Back off-topic...
> As a Canadian: I understand that there are wait times for elective diagnostics & surgeries. This isn't unknown - and emergency procedures are, obviously, given much higher priority. In fact: the OECD, in 2013, had quite a scathing report that noted Canada's "need for reduced waiting time". http://www.quotidianosanita.it/allegati/allegato2476022.pdf
> But delays are offset where I can use private clinics in many cases, within Canada, covered part or entirely by my provincial health plan for diagnostics. From my vantage point: there shouldn't be an issue with MRI wait times for @wineforfun 's buddy going through the right channels.
> I am fortunate, in that, my employer has additional health insurance coverage that provides me additional options. And further fortunate, in OECD's report broken down by province, my own performed near the top within the country.
> 
> I'd rather not get into the politics of universal health care policies. Because, in the end, I believe we all deserve better than what our politicians have put before us.



There are wait times and rationing for healthcare in the USA, too. We just do it by type of insurance and ability to pay. LOL... this is so very true! Don't take my word for it, check the national statistics for yourself. 

There are also tiers of US care quality, based on insurance and ability to pay. That tiered approach can mean that for the same illness, Patient A on bare-bones insurance gets a different treatment course than Patient B with gold plated insurance, so Patient A dies. 

And the fact remains, the USA is the only developed country in the world where even middle class citizens go bankrupt after a single catastrophic health event. That's not a category where I want to be shouting, "We're Number One!"

Some may say this is a political issue. I think not. I think no matter who is "in power," if I live in the wealthiest country in the world, and if Croatia and Moldova can provide universal healthcare to their citizens (and they do), then we should do it, too, on some level. Catastrophic health event support would be a really good start. Let's get rid of those medical bankruptcies.

As far as athletes who abuse their bodies as part of their sport, they can buy added insurance to cover that. But the fact is, drop of a hat MRIs and other expensive diagnostic procedures that are now commonly used in place of good doctor diagnostic training because they are profit centers are what makes our healthcare costs spiral at the highest rate in the world. That is killing our economy. Again, not politics. Facts that are easily found. And the fact is, insurance companies do ration these diagnostic procedures in the USA to try to contain costs.


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