# First time harvesting and fermenting fresh grapes



## BenK (Aug 24, 2018)

My wife and I are planning to pick grapes at Mitchell VIneyard in Oregon, Wisconsin in two weeks. Besides picking equipment I am looking at:


Largest size primary buckets that fit in my trunk (19 inches)
Stoppers for the airlock holes in bucket lids
An extra hydrometer
*refractometer
*PH test tool
extra airlocks
*acid testing tool
*wine press
extra carboys
Tartaric acid
*enological tannins
*yeast
*MLB bacteria
*Missing anything?

Likely varieties: LeCrescent,, St Pepin, Foch, Marquette. Whites will be pressed at the vineyard, reds will be pressed at home

I am looking for suggestions on brands or specific items for the things marked with an asterix. Total volume of wine I am hoping will be 20-30 gallons. I have Amazon prime if anything is on there that you know of. I am an amateur and would like equipment that will last, but won't break the bank.


Thanks,

Ben


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## Johny99 (Aug 24, 2018)

Nice list. I question the refractometer, the vineyard should tell you what they have. Once you’ve picked, rely on the hydrometer. I like two, standard and a short range for less than 5 Brix. They are spendy though. I can’t comment on yeast or chemicals as I haven’t done those grapes. For mlb I’m using VP41. Seems to be reliable and gets to completion for me.


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## NorCal (Aug 25, 2018)

Largest size primary buckets that fit in my trunk (19 inches) - bigger the better
Stoppers for the airlock holes in bucket lids - red, leave open 
An extra hydrometer - sure
*refractometer - too late
*PH test tool - $7 pH meter will suffice 
extra airlocks - get a breathable silicon bung, no extra needed
*acid testing tool - assuming TA test? Adjust to pH.
*wine press - yea, that and destemmer/ crusher
extra carboys - never short
Tartaric acid - I have 5 lbs ready!
*enological tannins - don’t use
*yeast - makes the magic happen
*MLB bacteria - if desired.
*Missing anything? - go ferm, ferm k, mlb nutrient, thermometer


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## Masbustelo (Aug 25, 2018)

I would suggest Opti-Red. Marquette is a cross with Pinot Noir, which doesn't have strong color characteristics.


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## BenK (Aug 26, 2018)

I will look into opti-red. I am deciding between RC212 and Lalvin 71b for the red wines and w15 or EC1118 for whites. I am debating doing a MLF at all. If I use 71b on the reds can I skip the MLF or should I do it regardless for stability purposes?

I looked online and cannot find out if goferm/fermaid products or necessary or if my LD Carlson yeast nutrient is adequate. are there any good sources of information where I can read further on that?

Thanks all,

Ben


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## CDrew (Aug 28, 2018)

One of the very best things to do, is to read the Morewine manual of red winemaking. It will answer many of your questions. And it's free, excellent and surprisingly complete:

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wredw.pdf


Regarding MLF, it's basically mandatory for red wine. I'm a co-innoculator and add the MLF bacteria on the second day of fermentation when it's building to the peak and thus warm. There is some controversy here so read up. I like CH16. I experimented last year and the co-innoculated Cab finished faster than the MLF added at the first racking. Your call though. There is no one always correct answer except you should do an MLF with your red wine.

Yeast is your choice. I used 212 and Pasture Rouge last year and had good results with both. Thought the Pasture Rouge did especially well in my Cab for a common and inexpensive wine yeast. I'm using D21 this year in 3 red 25 gallon ferments, mainly because I wanted to try it and got 80 grams at Morewine. A local and well respected winery told me they use Red Star Premier Cuvee in everything red and white because it was so problem free. I took from that that the yeast doesn't matter that much in the final product.

Me personally, I like the GoFerm routine and then 2 timed feedings of Fermaid K. You will undoubtedly find a method that works for you. Just keep your processes clean, and I'll bet you'll be surprised with even your first vintage. Just realize you will buy a lot of equipment your first year. I think I went from 1 to 12 carboys in 1 year! I now have a few more and am looking at Flextanks.

If you're only doing 20-30 gallons total, I'd do only 2 varieties and keep it simple. Maybe 200 pounds of 2 different grapes and you'll be good. A Brute 32 gallon trash can "fermenter" for your red, and something a bit more airtight for your white.

Good luck, and start collecting bottles!

But read the Morewine manual for sure. A great starting resource.


More rambling thoughts-

You're going to need a bigger car. I use our old family minivan for hauling wine, grapes and must around. A pick up would be better. But it will haul 4 Brutes full of crushed wine grapes from the vineyard to the garage.

And your list left out all kinds of things, like racking canes, tubing, cleaner like PBW, and a sterilizer like Star San. Chemical resistant spray bottles for Metabisulfite solution and Star San, You need different sizes of carboys from 3 to 6.5 gallons plus a few gallons and even 1/2 gallons like a growler bottle. Get a Punchdown Tool like an commercial long handle potato masher. Carboy funnel and brush I could go on and on. You need a lot of stuff. The +5/-5 Hydrometer is a good tip. Hopefully you can borrow a press, but that's another reason to do larger amounts of fewer varieties. And in fact your fist year I'd do only reds. Get your crush process down, your clean/sterilize process down, your sulfite additions down, your racking down and then in year 2 or 3 do a white wine. Reds are more forgiving, can ferment in a trash can, and are easier. to have turn out well on your first go. Have more flavor too.


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## BenK (Aug 28, 2018)

Thank you for your reply you gave me a lot to mull over. I do have the other equipment that you listed from my adventures in kit winemaking outside the punch down tool. Just so we are on the same page, the grapes will be destremmed and crushed at the vineyard, and the whites will get pressed there. I will only need to press the reds at home. Im planning on bringing home 5-12 gallons of white juice and 15-20 gallons of crushed reds, hoping to net 10+ gallons of red juice after pressing. Ideal scenario is 3-4 large carboys and maybe use some gallons/half gallon jugs if there is extra.


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## balatonwine (Aug 29, 2018)

CDrew said:


> Regarding MLF, it's basically mandatory for red wine. .



There are exceptions. Such as Beaujolais nuevo and similar Nouveau-style wines.

I also don't put my Teinturier red wines through MLF. The juice is red and they need no skin soaking for color, so soaking is for tannin control, can be selective of length of soaking from none, hours, days, etc.


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## balatonwine (Aug 29, 2018)

BenK said:


> 15-20 gallons of crushed reds



The amount of solids needing to be pressed will be about 35% of the total crushed volume. So maybe 7 gals to press. Not sure it is worth getting a single purpose press for that amount.

Maybe consider getting and using the multitasking All In One Wine Pump and using it as a vacuum press:



Also see:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/vacuum-press-using-the-allinonewinepump.57599/


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## BenK (Sep 8, 2018)

Hey guys, really appreciated the feedback so far. Heres how the day went down.

8.5 gallons of Lecrescent juice split into two buckets
4.5 gallons of Saint Croix must
4.5 gallons of Marquette must
5.25 gallons of Foch must

I sulphited all of the buckets and will test PH and OG tomorrow morning. I didn't bust the blender out for the reds (still on skins) but this is what I have so far

LaC1 1.083
LaC2 1.08
St. Croix 1.07
Marquette 1.08
Foch 1.075

The winery said the reds were in 20-22 brix depending on what row you picked in. Tomorrow I will blend and test gravity and PH, adjust, and pitch yeast. I'm going to grab a 3 gallon carboy for each red, a few gallon, and a half gallon carboys for leftovers. I Have a larger carboy waiting for the LaC.

Using 71b for the LaC and RC212 for all of the reds. After testing Acid I'll see if Malo is appropriate. I have dry MBR31 on standby.


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## BenK (Sep 9, 2018)

More information and questions guys
I am going to need to chaptalize the reds. I am going to need to calculate based on 66% volume retention after pressing the reds. Trying to hit 21-22 brix or about 1.090SG after adding sugar. Is this how you would go about it? Or should I just wait until after I press, then add the sugar based off of real volume of juice pressed off considering the yeast will still be active?

I'm going to have to fumble around with getting the lallzyme and optired diluted correctly, starting the yeast with fermaid 0 and adding 15grams/gallon of untoasted oak powder to the reds today. Any advice is appreciated.

EDIT: Grams of oak per gallon

LaC1 1.083 PH 3.2
LaC2 1.08 PH 3.15
St. Croix 1.07 PH 3.35
Marquette 1.08 PH 3.1
Foch 1.075 PH 3.6


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## NorCal (Sep 9, 2018)

You would want to add your sugar before or as early as possible in the ferment, while there is a less hostile environment for the yeast to consume the sugar.


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## Masbustelo (Sep 9, 2018)

You can do it either way, it's your call. If you do it after the press you need to allow space in the carboy for the volume of honey or sugar, and you risk triggering a powerfull ferment that might overflow the carboy. I would agree with Norcal, chaptalize in the must, and I would use honey because it's a higher quality ingredient.


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## Masbustelo (Sep 9, 2018)

Also, save the odds and ends of new wine after you fill the three gallon carboys. Put it in wine bottles for instance or half gallon jugs and then airlock them as well. Then when you rack off the lees you can use what you have to top off.


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## BenK (Sep 9, 2018)

NorCal what I read online was to blend some red must to take a OG reading, my end product was basically milkshake density and not a readable liquid. My concern about chaptalizing before pressing is that I am not accounting for any sugars left in the skins and intact flesh of the grapes. So I might add sugar to 1.09 and after pressing end up at 1.12 or something crazy if more sugar becomes available after pressing. I looked all over the internet to verify if that is even a possibility and nothing came up so I am likely over thinking and should just add the sugar.

So when adding sugar should I plan on using 66% the volume of must for calculations to account for the solids?


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## BenK (Sep 9, 2018)

Masbustelo, No doubt I will have extra small containers on hand. I often toyed with the idea of sweetening my last white kit with honey but did not do so, I might try that with the LaCrescent though. We will see. I might use sugar so Its as basic as possible and I have a baseline for comparison for more exotic additions next time.

The Foch was bubbling when I adding the opti-red, oak, and enzymes. Some native yeast perhaps. I made and added a starter of fermaid-0 and RC212 a few hours later. Hopefully no harm done.


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## Johnd (Sep 9, 2018)

Normal protocol is to adjust your must prior to fermentation, and you recognize that a reading can be off soon after crushing, though it’s usually pretty close. Take a representative sample of your must, and put it in a blender. Filter the blended must through mesh or cheesecloth to obtain a sample. If you’re using a refractometer, you’ll need only two drops for a reading, hydrometers require much more. Alternatively, once your must is crushed, add some pectic enzyme to help break it down for 12 hours or so, mix very well, push a strainer down into it and scoop enough juice to fill your hydrometer vessel. Adjust as desired. 

Either way, you should endeavor to adjust your BRIX as well as your acidity to your desired level before fermentation.


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## BenK (Sep 12, 2018)

John, that was a great post. This thread has been very beneficial to me thus far. here is where I am now: chaptalized for 2/3rds total volume and added fermaid k whole dose 4 days into fermentation as Im working two jobs and have a few other obligations at this point. Im punching the caps 2 or 3 times daily.

John, I hear you on adjusting must at the beginning but this will be a learning experience for me and I also want to experience the varieties through a range of (acceptable) parameters.

Correct me if Im wrong but all of the must is PH appropriate, the only one im concerned about is the foch after MLF. If anyone has some different information to share here its appreciated.


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## Johnd (Sep 12, 2018)

BenK said:


> John, that was a great post. This thread has been very beneficial to me thus far. here is where I am now: chaptalized for 2/3rds total volume and added fermaid k whole dose 4 days into fermentation as Im working two jobs and have a few other obligations at this point. Im punching the caps 2 or 3 times daily.
> 
> John, I hear you on adjusting must at the beginning but this will be a learning experience for me and I also want to experience the varieties through a range of (acceptable) parameters.
> 
> Correct me if Im wrong but all of the must is PH appropriate, the only one im concerned about is the foch after MLF. If anyone has some different information to share here its appreciated.



The Foch is the one with the most comfy pH for me, though the others are in range, a tad on the low side for reds. The Foch might cross the 3.7 line post AF / MLF, but it’s easy to bring down with a little tartaric if the taste buds indicate that you should. If not, you can manage higher pH’s with a good SO2 protocol. Though I’ve made wine with high acid must, I’d rather deal with low acid than high acid ones, probably because it always feels better to add acid than to try to remove it, I’m also more accustomed to it.


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## DriftlessDoc (Sep 13, 2018)

Hey Ben! My wife and I were there last Sunday picking! What did you think of the LeCresent? Seemed pretty green on the upper field and by the time I got there, lower field was pretty much picked clean. I'm doing a LeCresent/Prairie Star field blend (75/25) and a batch of Marquette. Will be interesting to see how things turn out!


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## BenK (Sep 13, 2018)

DriftlessDoc said:


> Hey Ben! My wife and I were there last Sunday picking! What did you think of the LeCresent? Seemed pretty green on the upper field and by the time I got there, lower field was pretty much picked clean. I'm doing a LeCresent/Prairie Star field blend (75/25) and a batch of Marquette. Will be interesting to see how things turn out!


We got there at 11 and hit most of the Lacrescent that was at least russeted on the side that got the most sun, and looking ok on the shaded portions. You didnt find anything ripe in the top field because I got there a day before you. lol


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## DriftlessDoc (Sep 13, 2018)

BenK said:


> We got there at 11 and hit most of the Lacrescent that was at least russeted on the side that got the most sun, and looking ok on the shaded portions. You didnt find anything ripe in the top field because I got there a day before you. lol



Haha you’ll have to let me know how yours turns out. My juice is super green, but SG was surprisingly about 1.078. I boosted that to 1.1. I’m excited for the Marquette.


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## BenK (Sep 13, 2018)

DriftlessDoc said:


> Haha you’ll have to let me know how yours turns out. My juice is super green, but SG was surprisingly about 1.078. I boosted that to 1.1. I’m excited for the Marquette.


Im afraid its going to be to hot if I chaptalize it. Have you made it before? They dont us not to pick st pepin or prarie star on Saturday I had a similar plan and actually wanted saint pepin as a priority


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## BenK (Sep 13, 2018)

What is your plan for marquette and how long do you let your cold hardy reds sit on the skins before pressing?


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## DriftlessDoc (Sep 13, 2018)

I’m winging it with both, first time using real grapes. Fermenting on skins for a week, then pressing

If the white comes in hot will back sweeten and make it off dry instead of dry.

I’ve made some pretty good kit wines, going into this with an open mind. Hopefully it turns out pretty good. You close to Oregon? We’re about an hour west


Edit: by winging it, I have a pretty good plan but have nothing to base expectations on so I’ll be happy with anything pretty decent.


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## BenK (Sep 13, 2018)

Im sure you noticed that I am winging it as well to an extent. I actually live in green bay.


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## DriftlessDoc (Sep 13, 2018)

Did you drive all the way down just for grapes or were in the area?


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## BenK (Sep 13, 2018)

I drove 5 hours round trip just for the grapes. After taxes come back next year, if no giant bills pop up I might be in the market for a 3-5 acre vineyard site. I badly need some experience with fresh fruit from regional varieties.


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## regnistep (Sep 14, 2018)

BenK said:


> My wife and I are planning to pick grapes at Mitchell VIneyard in Oregon, Wisconsin in two weeks. Besides picking equipment I am looking at:
> 
> 
> Largest size primary buckets that fit in my trunk (19 inches)
> ...


I used 71B on some very acid Marquette and Frontenac last year, and it knocked the heck out of the acid, resulting in a pH of 4.0 after starting at around 3.2. It was VERY effective at reducing acid levels. I felt like the only guy that has ever added acid to Frontenac. I have been making mostly northern grape varieties from an excellent vineyard in Northern Illinois. I personally prefer Marechal Foch. My last Foch was indistinguishable from a high quality Pinot in a blind taste test, except the color was better.

I am switching to glass carboys this year after having experienced some oxidation issues with plastic carboys. I was thinking I would get some micro-oxidation through the plastic carboys to help age the reds, but it went too far. It might still be a good idea, but for a shorter period of time.

You didn't ask about oak. Most amateurs are using chips. If you read some of the research papers on the quality of wine versus the for of oak adjuncts used, you will find it is better for the oak to infuse over a longer period of time than happens with chips. The sweet spot seems to be 3/8" cubes. I drill small holes in the cubes and thread them onto some monofilament with glass beads separating them and suspend them from the airlock so they don't get covered in yeast lees or grape solids, and leave them for at least 3 months.


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## Malach58 (Sep 14, 2018)

CDrew said:


> One of the very best things to do, is to read the Morewine manual of red winemaking. It will answer many of your questions. And it's free, excellent and surprisingly complete:
> 
> https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wredw.pdf
> 
> ...


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## Malach58 (Sep 14, 2018)

Dude, that sounds exactly like the path I’m on. My first “large” batches this year. 100#s of Muscadine, and 300#s of Shiraz. The shiraz barely fit in 3 large marine coolers. I’ll be upgrading and doubling next year and move up to a 25-30 gallon tank. My wife frowns on the 15-20 carboys around the house, until it’s bottling time and then she becomes QA/QC.


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## CK55 (Sep 14, 2018)

BenK said:


> I drove 5 hours round trip just for the grapes. After taxes come back next year, if no giant bills pop up I might be in the market for a 3-5 acre vineyard site. I badly need some experience with fresh fruit from regional varieties.


Do it  but 3-5 acres would be like an insane amount of wine.


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## BenK (Sep 17, 2018)

Status update. I have a full 3 gallon carboy of each variety and 2 or 2.5 gallons in an untopped 6 gallon carboy. I went with the larger vessel because I wrongly assumed fermentation would not be this far along. I tested SG of the 3 single varietal carboys and All are between .996 and 1.000. I will have a hard time reacting to the blend in the larger carboy until Thursday. I'll try to rack into smaller containers tomorrow night.

Upcoming plan is:
-Rack off the LaCrescent into carboys, this variety still has visible activity going on in the bucket
-Rack the red blend ASAP
-Rack the reds to get them off the gross lees on Thursday
-Retest acid levels & taste all wines
-Start malo on the reds
-Order light toasted French oak. Probably cubes or beans.
-I'm planning on not using fining agents, but it's still an option I'm tossing around to get them in the bottle quicker so that I'm not doing extra rackings on multiple carboys while working 55+ hours a week and training for powerlifting
-What do I do with the small quantities in the .5 and 1 gallon carboys assuming they will eventually lose volume from topping up the 3 gallon carboys, solid bung and leave in the fridge? How long will they last?

My wife and I tasted the St Croix and it tasted strongly acidic/hot. Hopefully that comes down with malo, oak, and age.

I did not press the heck out of the skins. It was hot and buggy outside so I pressed inside and made one hell of a mess. I'm also ridiculously paranoid about contaminating the wine, which is typical for me. Every time something small happens that could cause infection all I do is stress about it.

Time on skins was 9 days.


Thanks for all of the help team!


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## CDrew (Sep 17, 2018)

So no expert here, but I'd go back to the basics.

No headspace. It just invites oxidation. You need to combine your wine or put in smaller containers so that you don't have headspace. Or use the vacuum "head space eliminator" which works quite well in my experience.

Get all the wine off the gross lees within 48 hours. 

Start MLF anytime-I do it during primary fermentation when the wine warms up due to the fermentation energy release.

A lot of the strong acid flavor is carbonic acid ie the CO2 dissolved in the wine. It will pass as the wine gives up the CO2 over the next 2-3 months.

Your varieties are not familiar to me, but I'd still do whatever you can to prevent oxygen from getting to the wine and making vinegar.

I leave mine in the carboys for almost a year, I would not be too anxious to bottle, especially if adding oak.

Wine is a waiting game. Get used to it.


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## CK55 (Sep 18, 2018)

you can have some headspace in secondary as wine still has a lot of CO2. especially if you put malolactic bacteria as it will also make more. But after that you should top up.


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## BenK (Sep 20, 2018)

Once again guys, I really appreciate all of you following this thread and helping me keep the course.

Today's progress:

Racked the lacrescent out of the primary buckets. Smells good but did not taste. FG: 0.992 so she's done. Ended up with 7.5 gallons Going to read the white wine making guide and decide on when my next rack will be. Need to test acid at next rack.

Got the red blend out of the to large carboy and into smaller containers with appropriate headspace. Tastes a lot better but a few things I note.

-All of the lees I can see in the reds appear to be fine lees. I did ferment to dry in primary before pressing, and did not press that heck out of the cake so hopefully waiting until Friday night or Saturday morning to rack off the gross lees won't be a big deal

-The wine isn't very integrated, in the glass the center of the wine is dark and blackish red but grainy in appearance, and gets light around the edges but grainy as it gets from dark to light. Doesn't seem like the color is well integrated.


-No real alcohol taste, almost wonder if I did not chapitalize enough

-Still kind of hot on acids

-Not very deep/rich flavor


Hopefully time, malo, and a little oak will cure what ails it. I'm assuming the 3 untouched red varietals are suffering the same problem, but I'll find out this weekend.


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

BenK said:


> Once again guys, I really appreciate all of you following this thread and helping me keep the course.
> 
> Today's progress:
> 
> ...


It needs oak, some time, and a little love and it will be great.


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## Johnd (Sep 20, 2018)

BenK said:


> Once again guys, I really appreciate all of you following this thread and helping me keep the course.
> 
> Today's progress:
> 
> ...



As far as the color goes, that’s pretty typical at this stage. As the sediment falls out of the wine, it’ll lose that reddish color and get very deep and dark when it’s in large glass containers. 

Don’t fret funny tastes and funky little notes or smells at the moment, she’s but a babe in woods right now. As the wine ages and becomes more integrated, those things just seem to melt away.


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## BenK (Sep 20, 2018)

CK55 said:


> It needs oak, some time, and a little love and it will be great.


That is what Im hoping for!


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## BenK (Sep 20, 2018)

Johnd said:


> As far as the color goes, that’s pretty typical at this stage. As the sediment falls out of the wine, it’ll lose that reddish color and get very deep and dark when it’s in large glass containers.
> 
> Don’t fret funny tastes and funky little notes or smells at the moment, she’s but a babe in woods right now. As the wine ages and becomes more integrated, those things just seem to melt away.


John, your wisdom is always appreciated. I will update this weekend after finishing up this weeks work.


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## BenK (Sep 23, 2018)

Ok team,

Red wine update:

PH 9.23.18
Marquette 3.47
Foch 3.77+3.83
Saint Croix 3.75


Racked off the lees. The wine all went up by between .3 to .4 PH. I did not add Malo yet. Not even sure if I should at this point. Maybe for microbial stability after bottling. The number difference also might imply it went under MLF with native bacteria. I am not sure if RC212 would eat acid in this quantity, or at all.


I rinsed my testing container in kmeta between samples and I ran two samples of the foch to see if it made a difference between rinsing in meta or distilled water. The lower PH is the sample from a cup rinsed with meta (also off first gallon of siphoning. and the second sample is from the container being rinsed with distilled water before collecting the sample and is from the last gallon siphoned from the carboy.In practice, at the level I am working with I'll just need to be consistent using the same liquid for rinsing out the sample container. I'll be ordering tartaric acid with my oak this next week.


As of right now, with a little swirling in the glass the Marquette is the most balanced of the 3. All are still too "bright" and almost a little concord-esque in the nose and on the tongue.


Shopping list for tomorrow.

1.tartaric acid
2. oak cubes (any opinions on light/medium toast?/grams per gallon)
3. More kmeta (Running very light, need to hit them again after going to the LHBS
tomorrow)


Task list for Monday/Tuesday:
1. Decide if I'm going to do MLF on reds
2 Test PH on LaC
3. Rack the Lac
4. If I do Malo, get the culture going.

Questions:
-PH Changes normal without MLF? Do the changes imply MLF with wild bacteria and that is why my PH changed consistently through the varieties?

-Has anyone used dry malo bacteria? I've kept it in my fridge for 3 weeks. Hopefully it's not all dead

-Light or medium toast French oak cubes for these varieties? Leaning towards light toast for tannins and mouthfeel.

-I've got 3/4ths of a gallon of red blend in a 1 gallon carboy. Probably going to grab a random cheap pinot to top it up, or hit it with a large dose of meta. It's for topping up after racks which probably won't happen again for 3+ months, or for possibly making a blush with any leftover La Crescent .


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

Do MLF


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## BenK (Sep 23, 2018)

When doing MLF should I also do my small volume containers for top ups, knowing they might get used for blush wine in the future? I'd have for all of my blush to turn into bottle bombs after bottling.


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

BenK said:


> When doing MLF should I also do my small volume containers for top ups, knowing they might get used for blush wine in the future? I'd have for all of my blush to turn into bottle bombs after bottling.


It isn't that important to top up during malo as it's typically during secondary and it produces co2


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## BenK (Sep 23, 2018)

So what I meant was I have a blend of the 3 reds in various .5 and 1 gallon carboys that didnt fit in the 3 gallon carboys I filled for each variety. Im concerned if I make a blush with it when im ready to bottle the new blend will undergo MLF in the bottle.


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

Then either do mlf or add sorbate. Because you don't want gushers or bottle bombs.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

CK55 said:


> It isn't that important to top up during malo as it's typically during secondary and it produces co2



MLF is not producing anywhere near enough co2 to protect the wine. Fresh from fermentation you’ll have existing co2 in there. But that runs out. Once your MLfing and in glass you should definitely be topped up. It could be weeks or months before complete and your not protected by sulphites yet. Topping up essential during this time. 
If mine I would not inoculate the small containers. Too little amount to affect the rest once used for topping. And also since you’ll be making a rosè with it. 

Btw- “Secondary” isn’t a actual thing. Just the last little bit of fermentation finishing after pressing and transferring. And a lot of winemakers out there refer to MLF as ‘secondary’ actually. Kit manufacturers use the term- and can be confusing at first.


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> MLF is not producing anywhere near enough co2 to protect the wine. Fresh from fermentation you’ll have existing co2 in there. But that runs out. Once your MLfing and in glass you should definitely be topped up. It could be weeks or months before complete and your not protected by sulphites yet. Topping up essential during this time.
> If mine I would not inoculate the small containers. Too little amount to affect the rest once used for topping. And also since you’ll be making a rosè with it.
> 
> Btw- “Secondary” isn’t a actual thing. Just the last little bit of fermentation finishing after pressing and transferring. And a lot of winemakers out there refer to MLF as ‘secondary’ actually. Kit manufacturers use the term- and can be confusing at first.


Well my sangio has gone about 2 weeks with some amount of headspace I did add some ascorbic acid which scavenges oxygen so it's probably okay.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Well my sangio has gone about 2 weeks with some amount of headspace I did add some ascorbic acid which scavenges oxygen so it's probably okay.



A couple weeks is probably cool. But as time continues the existing co2 from AF diminishes and eventually the wine will be unprotected. 
My mlfs have all finished in under a month- but many people have waited 2 or 3 or more months for MLf to finish. 
If your not topped up and so much time passes and it’s still not finished then it’s probably best to top it up at some point.


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

I think it will finish within 3 weeks it's only 3 gallons.


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I think it will finish within 3 weeks it's only 3 gallons.


 
The speed of completion of a malolactic fermentation is not related to the volume of wine if you inoculated the appropriate amount of bacteria into the wine.


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

That's what white labs told me as they made the malo I'm using.


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

CK55 said:


> That's what white labs told me as they made the malo I'm using.



So you’re not speaking from experience........


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

Johnd said:


> So you’re not speaking from experience........


Well both experience and goin on what they said.


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Well both experience and goin on what they said.



ROTFLMAO!!!!


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## CK55 (Sep 23, 2018)

Johnd said:


> ROTFLMAO!!!!


Just saying, you can still he experienced and still go on advice they said. I've had it take less time and take more time. But given temps in area it's going through malo it's probably going to be faster.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

BenK said:


> Questions:
> -PH Changes normal without MLF? Do the changes imply MLF with wild bacteria and that is why my PH changed consistently through the varieties?


Yeah there’s a lot happening during fermentation. And ph changing can happen. Also if the samples haven’t been degassed then that can give skewed readings too. (Something I ALWAYS forget to do)



BenK said:


> -Has anyone used dry malo bacteria? I've kept it in my fridge for 3 weeks. Hopefully it's not all dead


Yea the dry stuff is said to be better than the liquid. 



BenK said:


> -Light or medium toast French oak cubes for these varieties? Leaning towards light toast for tannins and mouthfeel.


This is all personal preference really. Light french will take forever to take. French oak is light enough to use the Medium without concern of over oaking and getting the desired benefits. 



BenK said:


> -I've got 3/4ths of a gallon of red blend in a 1 gallon carboy. Probably going to grab a random cheap pinot to top it up, or hit it with a large dose of meta. It's for topping up after racks which probably won't happen again for 3+ months, or for possibly making a blush with any leftover La Crescent .



I just realized your total volumes. I’d inoculate all your jugs proportionately except this 1 only.


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## BenK (Sep 30, 2018)

Today's update:

Whites:Haven't racked the La Crescent yet due to very little fine lee accumulation, but I hit each carboy with 50ppm kmeta


Reds: Stuck my wine thief in the Kmeta solution bucket and am going to let it sit for a bit. Then I'm going to pull some wine out of the almost overfilled 3 gallon single varietal carboys and top up the gallon that has a little headspace. Then add 1g/gallon opti-malo diluted in distilled water, and sprinkle some of the powdered MLF culture into the carboys.


Haven't gotten to oaking. Time/financial constraints and have already sunk more than I should have into this project (learning time being my first batch, money due to extra supplies needed but will already have in the future)

Questions:
1. I know malo is gentle compared to actual fermentation, so no risk of foam over with a topped up carboy?

2. should I just add more MLF powder than necessary because I have excess and cannot store it long term?


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## Johnd (Sep 30, 2018)

BenK said:


> Questions:
> 1. I know malo is gentle compared to actual fermentation, so no risk of foam over with a topped up carboy?
> 
> 2. should I just add more MLF powder than necessary because I have excess and cannot store it long term?



No risk of foam over, top it up like a finished wine. 

You can’t keep it, might as well dump it in, no harm at all, and will help starting with a big colony.


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## BenK (Sep 30, 2018)

Alright, All of the wine is still under airlock. I will rack the reds in November and but them under solid bung assuming MLF is finished or mostly finished. The whites will all go under Solid bung the next time I go to the LHBS.


In about a week, once the malo has started to run I will give the reds about 20-30PPM dose of sulfites, they have not been sulfited since the onset of fermentation. Hopefully this will be enough to protect the wine and still allow malo to continue.

Thank you for quelling my fears.


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## Johnd (Sep 30, 2018)

BenK said:


> Alright, All of the wine is still under airlock. I will rack the reds in November and but them under solid bung assuming MLF is finished or mostly finished. The whites will all go under Solid bung the next time I go to the LHBS.
> 
> 
> In about a week, once the malo has started to run I will give the reds about 20-30PPM dose of sulfites, they have not been sulfited since the onset of fermentation. Hopefully this will be enough to protect the wine and still allow malo to continue.
> ...



If you sulfite while your mlb hasn’t finished it’s job, you run the risk of killing it off. Most folks avoid sulfites until MLF is confirmed complete.


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## BenK (Sep 30, 2018)

Can do!


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## BenK (Nov 24, 2018)

I will be racking tomorrow or next weekend. I opted for medium toast spirals, directions say 1 spiral per 3 gallons with full extraction in 6 weeks. The package came with 2 spirals. I might do 3/4 spiral in the marquette and foch and 1/2 spiral in the saint croix. I have only ever used the oak powder in this project and premeasured chips in wine kits so I dont have a frame of reference as to what the extraction will be. Opinions?


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## BenK (Nov 24, 2018)

The room I am storing the wine in sits in the low 60s for temperature, and im not seeing the wine dropping more sediment. I havent added any clearing agents and the wine is now a little over two months old. I dont have a chromatography test, so i am thinking of waiting until december to sulfite the reds. I started MLF on 9/30


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## Ajmassa (Nov 24, 2018)

BenK said:


> I will be racking tomorrow or next weekend. I opted for medium toast spirals, directions say 1 spiral per 3 gallons with full extraction in 6 weeks. The package came with 2 spirals. I might do 3/4 spiral in the marquette and foch and 1/2 spiral in the saint croix. I have only ever used the oak powder in this project and premeasured chips in wine kits so I dont have a frame of reference as to what the extraction will be. Opinions?



I’m actually in the middle of some oak management right now too! 
Your plan sounds good to me. Don’t go by the packaging instructions. It really depends on many variables. But I like to give em a full 3 month racking interval to extract. 
1 full American medium spiral on 6gal of a big red can go a long way. I don’t do more than that at one time anymore for American oak. (Learned the threshold the hard way). 
I’ve got 2 French light spirals and handful of stave segments going in 15gals right now. Hoping for the best. 
Also little tip- I use fishing line up through the bung to suspend the spirals. And makes more simple removal too.


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## Newine (Nov 25, 2018)

BenK said:


> The room I am storing the wine in sits in the low 60s for temperature, and im not seeing the wine dropping more sediment. I havent added any clearing agents and the wine is now a little over two months old. I dont have a chromatography test, so i am thinking of waiting until december to sulfite the reds. I started MLF on 9/30


I started MLF a week ahead if you. One of four is complete according to chromatogram. Another just started to show MLF activity. I would not be comfortable with out testing, maybe you can get the testing kit for Xmas? Easy to use and lasts a long time. BTW, I am growing and making Frontenac, Foch, Noiret and Seyval blanc. I taste a little every two weeks to see how the oak is progressing. Curious if you've tested titrable acid or if you're only checking pH?


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## BenK (Nov 25, 2018)

Newine said:


> I started MLF a week ahead if you. One of four is complete according to chromatogram. Another just started to show MLF activity. I would not be comfortable with out testing, maybe you can get the testing kit for Xmas? Easy to use and lasts a long time. BTW, I am growing and making Frontenac, Foch, Noiret and Seyval blanc. I taste a little every two weeks to see how the oak is progressing. Curious if you've tested titrable acid or if you're only checking pH?


Ill take another look online, Im trying to stagger out my purchases over time so Im not dropping a huge chunk of change on a few carboys of wine right away. I did not get anything to test TA.

Should I freeze my additives like the yeast nutrient and opti red/malo?


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## Newine (Nov 25, 2018)

BenK said:


> Ill take another look online, Im trying to stagger out my purchases over time so Im not dropping a huge chunk of change on a few carboys of wine right away. I did not get anything to test TA.
> 
> Should I freeze my additives like the yeast nutrient and opti red/malo?


I keep everything refrigerated, I have a frig for cold stabilizing my wines that I keep near freezing, so that's where I store stuff like that.


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## BenK (Dec 3, 2018)

Racked the lacrescent yesterday and had 1.5 bottles worth that did not fit in a carboy. I swirled them a bit to help degas before sampling them.

They are a little thin, but not necesarilly in a bad way.

I realize my swirling did not degas in the way 12 months of bulk storage would. They tasted a little tart but not unpleasantly so. Ill do another PH test once i have purchased more of the calibrating solutions.

The lees were basically crystalized to the bottom of the carboy and not the light fluffy stuff im used to. I only added yeast and nutrients to this batch. When i mixed in hot water to rinse it out before cleaning and sanitizing it broke down easilly. Storage temps are around 60 degrees give or take. And the wine appears basically clear and is a light straw color.

The nose of the wine screams honey, but the flavors or leaning a little more towards tropical fruit or citrus possibly due to the tartness

Will the wine degas with a solid bung in?

Im going to add a half dose of kmeta, I have no way of testing free so2.

Going to try to work on the reds next weekend, I've been a busy boy.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 3, 2018)

BenK said:


> Will the wine degas with a solid bung in?



I'd say not. I would use either an airlock or a bung with a one-way valve.

Everything else in your post sounds favorable!


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## BenK (Dec 8, 2018)

Some bad news guys, We have had some large bills crop up this week and getting an acid testing kit is going to be out of the cards for the foreseeable future. Im evaluating my options and doing some research.

Should I re-test the PH of the reds and compare it to the anticipated swing that happens during MLF and if I'm there rack it and sulphite it under the sulfite tolerance of the bacteria to try to balence safety while giving the bacteria some room to work if there is still some malic acid left?


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## BenK (Dec 8, 2018)

Talked to the guy at the lhbs and he talked me into not touching the reds until january before racking and sulfiting.


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## BenK (Feb 8, 2019)

The La Crescent has been in a carboy for over two months with no sediment dropping. Can I bottle this to free up the carboy and finish aging in the bottle? I want to power through a couple kits as my wine rack is looking sad.


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