# Elementary school shooting



## Julie (Dec 14, 2012)

Not sure if we have any members in the Newtown, Conn. area but there has been a shooting at the elementary school. Last report says several people have been shot.

My prays and thoughts go out to the families in that area. It is a sad day when our schools have become targets in a shooting gallery!


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## olusteebus (Dec 14, 2012)

Shooting at any school is awful but it seems so much worse at an elementary school.


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## GreginND (Dec 14, 2012)

Like there isn't enough tragedy and misery in the world. My heart goes out to those parents, children and teachers in Connecticut.


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## joea132 (Dec 14, 2012)

I just heard possibly 27 dead and 14 of those are children. This is 2 towns away from me, I'm absolutely shocked and horrified. I know way too many parents in Newtown...


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 14, 2012)

Terrible news. What is wrong with people!!??? This is happening far too often.


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## Julie (Dec 14, 2012)

joea132 said:


> I just heard possibly 27 dead and 14 of those are children. This is 2 towns away from me, I'm absolutely shocked and horrified. I know way too many parents in Newtown...


 
I was thinking of you when I first read this, wasn't sure exactly where you lived .

27 dead, 18 are children. The police now think there were two shooters.


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## ShelleyDickison (Dec 14, 2012)

My Thoughts and Prayers for all the families involved. I can not understand that kind of evil and hate.


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## JohnT (Dec 14, 2012)

Of course, the media is about to have a field-day! Sure, bring attention to this horrible act. Keep playing on it, and playing on it, until someone else has the bright idea to do the same thing. It is enough to make you vommit! The next thing you will see is a reporter sticking a microphone in a parent of one of the dead and ask "how do you feel about this". They are just pigs! 

Sorry to be so negative, it is that I am just do disgusted and mad!

My thoughts and prayers go out to those poor families. May God grant them comfort in their time of crisis.

johnT


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## winemaker_3352 (Dec 14, 2012)

I am just horrified that somebody can walk in and shoot innocent kids - there are things I am thinking right that I just can't say without violating some forum guidelines - so I will keep those to myself.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends..


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## Julie (Dec 14, 2012)

His name is Ryan Lanza and his mother was the kindergarten teacher of the class that he shot.

You know a lot of people do not understand how he got into the building. Ours school are locked at all times but if someone buzzes they are left in. While I was never one to advocate metal detectors, I believe we have now reached the level of needing metal detectors in our school buildings.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 14, 2012)

Prayers go out to the families of all involved. Schools are a place where children should be safe. That being said with the current laws in place today that prohibit law abiding citizens from being in possession of a firearm, schools are nothing more and a gun free victim zone. Obviously this person had intent to commit a crime and disregarded the laws that prohibit firearms. Media will have a field day, there will be calls for stricter gun laws. When will people realize that regarless of the laws in place, criminals will commit crimes. Law abiding citizens are the only ones affected by more legislation. I personally have no qualms about lawabiding citizens being able to carry firearms on school property, afterall, it's all about the kids. Someone has to be able to protect them. Remember, when seconds count, police are minutes away.


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## ibglowin (Dec 14, 2012)

When stuff like this happens I always quote Eddie Izzard:

*“They say that 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.' Well I think the gun helps. If you just stood there and yelled BANG, I don't think you'd kill too many people.”*

The thought of what transpired here today is behind horror, beyond belief, beyond (at least my) imagination as to how any human being could commit a crime of this magnitude.


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 14, 2012)

Mike,
I cannot condone what that jackass did to those children, I only wish that he was alive to answer to the justice system, however, he was 20 yrs old and obviously not a legal gun owner. 
This will become another witch hunt against legal gun owners. 
If he hadn't had a gun, something tells me that he would have used whatever means necessary to commit murder.
Once again, as a parent, this is unimaginable, as a human being, this is surreal, as an honest law abiding citizen, I think it is in poor taste to use this tragedy to further pursue a topic that is only going to stir up negative feelings.
Just my opinion of course.
Tom


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## Julie (Dec 14, 2012)

Thank you Tom for your post, I could not agree with you more. You are right, if someone wants to do what happen today they will find a way. What we need to do is control what comes into the school districts. 

A local school district a few years ago decided to take control who came into the schools. You have to go thru a metal detector and just last week they decided to arm their security police. To be a school police in that school district you have to be a retired state police officer. Their statement is, they do not have a lot of violence in their schools but they want to stop any coming in and address and reduce what they have.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 14, 2012)

"There's no tragedy in life like the death of a child. Things never get back to the way they were." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower

I can't even explain what I am feeling right now. WHY!!!!!! We'll never know. 

Thoughts and prayers to all of the families touched by this terrible tragedy! May God watch over them and give them the strength to go on!


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## ibglowin (Dec 14, 2012)

No, we are Soooooo beyond "witch hunts" for legal gun owners........

I grew up in Texas hunting. Dove, White Tail, Quail......

I am ready for some new rules to own guns. Call it "gun control" if you want. I will call it "crazy people control"..... 

Its time to get the effing guns OUT of the hands of these effing crazy people......

Someone you love could be next.

The gun registration laws are a COMPLETE JOKE........

Its time for something much more than the silly paper work we have today.

It obviously is NOT working.


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## DoctorCAD (Dec 14, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> When stuff like this happens I always quote Eddie Izzard:
> 
> *“They say that 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.' Well I think the gun helps. If you just stood there and yelled BANG, I don't think you'd kill too many people.”*
> 
> The thought of what transpired here today is behind horror, beyond belief, beyond (at least my) imagination as to how any human being could commit a crime of this magnitude.



Great...now how about the **** that killed 20 kids with a knife in China?

(Sorry, I meant this for the post above this one)


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## DirtyDawg10 (Dec 14, 2012)

The problem with trying to fix things by making more laws or changing the laws is that people who don't give a s#!t about the laws commit these crimes. So it will essentially fix nothing.


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## ibglowin (Dec 14, 2012)

Looks like 22 children were "injured" not killed.....

See this Link

Somehow we have to get automatic and semi automatic weapons out of the hands of crazy people in the US.........


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## ibglowin (Dec 14, 2012)

So what we just do nothing, give up???????



DirtyDawg10 said:


> So it will essentially fix nothing.


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## DirtyDawg10 (Dec 14, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> So what we just do nothing, give up???????


There is plenty that can be done but changing laws does nothing but make people FEEL better. Many drugs are illegal but as we all know the laws do little to curb bad people from doing bad things with them. Laws keep good people from doing bad things.

What we do is provide better security and training. In this case it probably would have been tough to stop no matter what as this kid is known in the school. His Mom worked at the school. He probably could have sneaked guns in his clothing or a backpack.


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## Rocky (Dec 14, 2012)

First, let me say that I am heartsick for the people who lost loved ones in this tragedy. None of us can begin to imagine the unspeakable pain and suffering they are now experiencing.

As to what to do about such tragedies, I do not think there is an answer that will completely eliminate them. Early detection, identification and treatment of a disturbed individual seems to be the only reliable method and even that does not always succeed. I am, however, convinced that gun control is not a solution. Criminals are _by definition_ non-lawabiding individuals who ignore laws and laws to prohibit criminal acts do little to irradicate them. Prohibition did not stop people from selling, buying and consuming alcohol, speeding laws are routinely ignored, banks are still robbed, people are murdered and people cheat on their income taxes, just to cite a few examples. I don't have a solution and I think the root of the problem is societal and perhaps therein lies the answer. It is going to take some out of the box thinking because none of the bromides are working.


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## tonyt (Dec 14, 2012)

Mainstreaming mental illness and liberal judges letting evil walk free is a far larger issue than gun laws. Its very complex and requires difficult desitions that lawmakers are most often reluctant to tackle. Easier to blame a gun than a broken system. And today a bunch of five and six year olds paid the ultimate price and their families will never heal. My wife is retired kindergarden teacher and our hearts ache tonight.


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 14, 2012)

Derek you hit it on the head, the laws make people feel more secure, but do nothing to control those that obtain weapons illegally.
Mike, I agree that we have to do something, but to be honest, the school system is responsible for our childrens safety, we live in an upscale neighborhood, Dr's, lawyers,very expensive area, still...we have police in the school at the front door.
Could this have stopped this social deviant....probably not, but it could have deterred him from doing it at the school, maybe he would have taken a shot at his mother in a different location, maybe it would have made him stop long enough to think about the consequences... The school failed those children as much as the system failed them.

My children are my life, period, I cannot even imagine, nor do I ever want to feel the pain that the parents are going through, and those poor kids that survived will never be the same, but once again, you need to be 21 in CT to get a pistol permit, this nut job was 20, nothing that any new law would have been written to do would have stopped him, it only hurts the rest of us and makes us all look like Sociopaths.

We need to get back to the days that parents could discipline their kids, how many times did any of you hear about a school getting shot up as you were growing up?
I know for one that if I got out of line, my father would "correct" me, there is no respect for the fellow man these days, and I feel that this is the core issue.

Anyway, non of this will bring back those poor children, may God bless their souls.


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## tatud4life (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm not going to get into the gun law debate right now. There will be time for that argument. I have my opinions on that and they are very stubborn as am I. Right now we should be thinking of the families of the slain children and giving them all the support and prayers that we can. I can't even begin to imagine the pain that they are feeling. My heart goes out to them. Words will not comfort them, but all I can say is that my family and I are here for any that a shoulder. This goes beyond belief, comprehension, political views, or spiritual beliefs. No child should suffer a terror like those young ones did today!!! They will forever be in our prayers and thoughts!!

I can only think that if that school had an armed guard, armed principle, or even an armed teacher that the children might have been spared. I'm not even hinting that the lives of the adults that were lost today are worth any less. I'm saying that there needs to be some way for honest law abiding people to defend themselves against the degenerates of society. Enough is enough!!!!!!! (Sorry, I couldn't stop myself. I had to say something.)


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

i as well cannot even begin to imagine the pain these parents are experiencing.....trying to imagine it and understand how in the world a person could actually stand there, look at a CHILD, and pull the trigger....i will not get into any gun control debates either at this time....all i can tell you is that tragedy made me definitely give the "lil ones" one hell of a big hug when i got home from work yesterday....i may only be their foster dad right now, but to them I AM DADDY, and they ARE MY KIDS.....they are the same age as the unfortunate ones, and to think that the same thing could have happened to them sent cold chills up and down my spine and made me thank heaven...there is absolutely no reason an event as horrific as this should EVER happen....being a parent now, my thoughts and prayers are definitely with those had the misfortune of having to deal with this tragedy....


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

You can't legislate the crazy out of people. By most accounts that I have seen this nut job stole these weapons from his mother (which he also used on her). He didn't walk into Walmart and buy them. 

Furthermore it now appears the Oregon shooting could have been MUCH MUCH worse.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html


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## TonyP (Dec 15, 2012)

It doesn't make sense to me that some people, hearing about what happened, immediately voice their concern about constitutional rights. What a crock of bull. There is no reason - including the Constitution - why people should be able to purchase an unlimited amount of guns, clips, and bullets. Guns that shoot 30 rounds faster than you can count to 30. 

I am hopeful this tragedy will force movement toward *sensible* gun control. It will happen and the country will be better for it.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

TonyP said:


> It doesn't make sense to me that some people, hearing about what happened, immediately voice their concern about constitutional rights. What a crock of bull. *There is no reason - including the Constitution - *why people should be able to purchase an unlimited amount of guns, clips, and bullets. Guns that shoot 30 rounds faster than you can count to 30.
> 
> I am hopeful this tragedy will *force *movement toward *sensible* gun control. It will happen and the country will be better for it.



You do know the 2nd amendment has NOTHING to do about hunting and target shooting right?

The highlighted words in your post are EXACTLY the reason the founding fathers wrote the 2nd amendment.


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2012)

I started this thread because of a horrible incident that happen, NOT to debate whether or not we should have gun control. So far the comments have been very civil and informative, I just want to make sure it stays that way.

Thank you.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

TonyP said:


> It doesn't make sense to me that some people, hearing about what happened, immediately voice their concern about constitutional rights. What a crock of bull.


Sorry I'm quoting you again because you struck a nerve with me. You rant about the Pro-gun crowd voicing their concern in the wake of this tragedy yet here you are doing the same thing on the opposite end of the spectrum. Your using the atrocities of a mentally ill person to gain political currency so you can further an agenda of stripping our Constitutional rights.


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## ibglowin (Dec 15, 2012)

It makes no sense that a female school teacher owned all these automatic weapons and ammo. Somehow (and this has yet to come out in the news) these guns were in the mothers name and not the name of the shooter. There must have been some reason for this that has yet to emerge. An even more diabolical thought as to the long range planning perhaps ....

Does anyone else ever stop and wonder why all of these mass murders are committed only by men? What is so different about the psychology or "wiring" between a man and a woman here. 

Perhaps since there is no easy answer on what new laws we need to pass to try and stop this from continuing to happen *over and over and over* we could at least spend some time reflecting inside of us.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> It makes no sense that a female school teacher owned all these *automatic weapons* and ammo.



Inaccurate. There have been no reports of automatic weapons used in this crime. With all due respect in times like these when emotions are running super high, we have to be careful about the information that we are floating around. The term you should use is 'Semi-automatic' and before someone mentions 'semantics' I don't assume everyone knows the difference so I brought it up. If you don't know the difference you should as it's quite considerable.


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## tatud4life (Dec 15, 2012)

Well, I really don't want to debate gun control here and take the focus away from the families in Newtown, but I feel like I need to voice my opinion just a little on the matter. It's not the government's job to *force* anything upon us. If that was the case, then we would live under a dictator. Secondly, I'm torn about automatic weapons. I'm not a gun collector. I have guns for personal protection. I do not want an automatic weapon nor do I ever see myself purchasing one. Would I like to shoot one? Yes! I would like to see what it is like. I don't think anyone other than law enforcement officers (on duty) or active military personnel have any need for automatics. I can see why gun collectors would want them. You don't need an AR-15 or an AK-47 to hunt a deer or a turkey. A bow or rifle will work just fine. On the other hand, if the government takes the right away to own a fully automatic weapon, what's to stop them from going further? Next, it would be semi-automatic weapons. After that, who knows! You can not take the right or ability to defend oneself from the general, honest, law abiding population because of the actions of nutbags!!! There would be no one left to stop the nutbags from doing whatever they wanted. And as far as the whole debate over gun control goes, those poor children in China were not slain with a gun. A psychopath will commit their crime with whatever tool they can get their hands on. Be it a gun, knife, baseball bat, etc.. It is my and our God given right to defend ourselves and I plan on doing that! 

Ok, I'm off of my soapbox now. I pray that the families of the lost children find a path to somehow find some sort of peace. I realize that it will be many years before they find it, but I pray that God helps them in any way!!!


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

folks, please.....at this point and time i feel it is far too soon to be using this event to argue over gun control....shouldn't we just focus on the tragedy as it is, and wish well to those people involved, expressing our sorrow an d sheer disbelief that someone could cause such harm to innocent children???....can't we just agree that this person CLEARLY was not of sound mind and that the ONLY way this could have been totally prevented, was if he had had a history of mental illness and had possibly been institutionalized if he had been adequately diagnosed as any form of a threat, prior to his actions???....


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## tatud4life (Dec 15, 2012)

g8keeper said:


> folks, please.....at this point and time i feel it is far too soon to be using this event to argue over gun control....shouldn't we just focus on the tragedy as it is, and wish well to those people involved, expressing our sorrow an d sheer disbelief that someone could cause such harm to innocent children???....can't we just agree that this person CLEARLY was not of sound mind and that the ONLY way this could have been totally prevented, was if he had had a history of mental illness and had possibly been institutionalized if he had been adequately diagnosed as any form of a threat, prior to his actions???....


 
I completely agree!! I know that I added to the untimely debate, but I had to clear my mind about it since it is all you hear on the news right now. At least, where I'm at. But, you are absolutely correct!! This is the time to offer our support to the families in Newtown.


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2012)

Well, personnally I am glad he took his own life! Right now he is facing all those baby angels, whose lives he shorten and God's anger.


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## BobR (Dec 15, 2012)

I was going to jump with both feet into this topic, but then I walked away and came back a little more calmer. It is nice to see that most of these posts make some darn good points about how society has failed. As for TonyP, you are what we call the sheep. When the wolf shows up and threatens you and your flock, you hope that the sheep dog will come to your rescue.
Now let me say this, I know nothing about growing grapes and making wine and that is why I enjoy learning so much from this site, but let me tell you this, when I took early retirement in 2011, I had worked the street for 37 years. I was a patrol Sgt and chief of police for a small 10 man dept. I worked on the academy level for over three years and was mainly involved in firearms and tactics. On retiring, I was a captain within a city of over 100,000. I also worked for a large university police department with over 30,000 students. I taught 6th grade D.A.R.E. for two years in a local middle school. I seen first hand how parents were raising their kids like they were some type of pet and how these kids were never told NO. TonyP, I was the sheep dog and I got sick of protecting those who did absolutely nothing to protect themselves. I may not know anything about grapes and wine, but I do know the street!
Further more, the media is reporting this as the worst school incident in U.S. history. Let me say this, after being involved in rapid deployment training, where we trained in the schools, this was not worst. As part of my training, we studied them all and 1927 Bath Michigan is still tops and no guns there TonyP.
My thoughts and prayers are with the families. In my 37 years, responding to incidents where small children were involved was something that would just turn your stomach. Sorry to have rambled on, but this makes me sick. And YES, the media needs to get the hell out of there and leave these poor people alone!

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–11 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in U.S. history and the third-deadliest non-military massacre in U.S. history, behind 9/11 and the Oklahoma City bombing.

The bomber was school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55, who died in a car bomb he set off after he drove up to the school as the crowd gathered to rescue survivors from the burning school.

On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren.


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

Julie said:


> Well, personnally I am glad he took his own life! Right now he is facing all those baby angels, whose lives he shorten and God's anger.


 
now i am not trying to start a debate by any means here, but this time i have to disagree, julie....lol...he took the coward's way out....he should have had to face the face anger and pain of the parents involved....let them take care of him....and not to start a theological discussion, but yes, the babies are in heaven, but his psycopathic [email protected]@ went in the other direction....hopefully right now, satan is shoving a pitchfork where the son don't shine!!!...


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## Rocky (Dec 15, 2012)

I am not saying there is a direct cause-effect relationship here, but I wonder if anyone has ever at least studied the rise of gratuitous violence in motion picture films compared to films from the 30's, 40's, 50's and early 60's? I remember in "the olden days" people were shot or stabbed in movies but it was not at all graphic. Then, Sam Peckinpah came along with 6 gallons of blood in every scene in movies and now on TV and we started to see these mass murders. Could they be related? I don't know but I am asking, has anyone looked at this? A second concern I have are these games that my Grandchildren play over and over which are nothing but killing people by many means. They are very graphic and my concern is we may be programming our children with them.

For the first half of my life, the only mass murder I can remember was that of Richard Speck who murdered 8 nurses in Chicago in 1966 by strangulation or stabbing. Since then, we have had a number of school shootings, mall shootings, restaurant shootings, etc. conicidental with the rise of violence in movies, TV and games. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ or is there something there?


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## tatud4life (Dec 15, 2012)

Julie said:


> Well, personnally I am glad he took his own life! Right now he is facing all those baby angels, whose lives he shorten and God's anger.


 

I highly doubt that they angels that he is facing at this moment. I would venture to say that he is a little south of that. And I mean no disrespect by my statement either. I just do not see a person that would take the life of an innocent child going anywhere but down. Even that is much better than he deserves.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

This resonated with me so I decided to share:

*"Before the shell casings have even been logged into evidence and the bodies laid to rest, this act of pure evil has opened the flood gates for the uneducated masses to voice their emotional and baseless opinions.

Violence is a part of nature.
No creature on this earth is exempt from it. Violence has shaped human society since the dawn of man and only people who have accepted this fact and prepared to meet evil with force have ever stopped it.

If you are one of the many who are commenting about this awful day- be outraged.

Be outraged that it happened and that those that could have stopped it were bound by the same laws that were violated to cause it. Be outraged that you were by definition considered equals with the scum that did this by lawmakers who are all to happy to place you like fish in a barrel by putting you and your loved ones in areas with no legal protection while they surround themselves with security.

Be outraged if you lack the ability to comprehend that nothing good has ever come by disarming good people.

Be outraged if you lack the mental and emotional fortitude to defend yourselves and your loved ones and would demand the disarming of those who would keep you and your right to be fodder safe.

Evil Exists. Be prepared to meet it or prepare to bow down to it."
*


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2012)

Oh I agree, I feel that before God sends him south, he will have a meeting with him!


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## GreginND (Dec 15, 2012)

I have been staying out of the debates and have had a hard time even talking about this tragedy. 

But I do think the time to talk about the problem of violence in our community is way late. The problem is we can't even start a conversation because every time there is a tragedy there is a political call not to talk about guns or what we as a society want. I don't know how I feel about gun control and have always supported the 2nd amendment. But I will just throw out some facts for people to consider. 

15 of the 24 worst mass shootings of this type have occurred in America. 

There is no correlation between the number of guns in civilian hands with these kind of tragedies. Look at Switzerland, for example. They have a high number of guns per capita. 

There is a correlation between tighter controls and education with reduced shootings like this. Tighter sensible controls does not equal bans. 

75% of NRA members favor a criminal background check to purchase a gun. 71% of NRA members support banning gun sales to people on the terrorist watch list. Neither of these controls are in place in America and the NRA vehemently opposes any suggestion to do so. 

Mental health is largely neglected in our health insurance system. 

IMHO, we can do better and we can do it while protecting gun rights. But we never will until we can talk about it without the politics and lobbying.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 15, 2012)

OK MY TURN....What in the hell am I doing with all of this wine I'm making? I'm have a blast making it, but not sure if I'm of sound mind. I don't even hardly drink much. Probably have an ultierior motive for the future but none of us know what it is. No problem, the law/media will make something up when I get busted for jay walking drunk some night and look in my cellar.


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## roadpupp (Dec 15, 2012)

<flame suit on>
I guess I have trouble with the second amendment in that we haven't quelled any tyrannical governments in 200 years with the public militia we
are supposed to be arming with the second amendment. What we do have is a staggeringly high number of gun deaths compared to other countries. They all have the same video games as we have, the same violent films. What they don't have is easy access to handguns. What else separates us? I am honestly interested. 

The UK had something g like 8 gun deaths last year. Japan under 50. Germany under 50. The US had over 10,000. Even adjusting for population it is a clear indicator that the US has a problem that hasn't been dealt with. 

Don't believe as some have said that the mentally ill man in Newtown would have been able to harm as many people if he didn't have handguns and tons of ammo. No matter how motivated, a knife or an axe or even gasoline wouldn't have been as lethal. Someone would have stopped him sooner. 

I also believe that our attitudes and lack of care for mentally ill people needs to change. I won't touch the health care issue but that is something that the countries with low gun deaths also have in common. Accessible health care including mental health care for all. 

I am tired of reading about such tragedies and I don't see the NRA offering answers. I'm just suggesting that maybe we should try some new tactics to fix this huge problem. Better mental health care and tighter restrictions on handguns, ammo and assault weapons would be a start. 

I respect others opinions on this. I just don't think arming everyone is a viable solution. Looser gun laws seems like we would be heading in the wrong direction from the proven strategies that work in other countries. 

I'm really shaken by this. My wife is a teacher a few towns away from where this happened and my daughter is in Kindergarten. So close to home and I can't imagine the misery so many relatives and friends if the killed. 

I do think this is the right time for this discussion. If not now, when? 
Respectfully 
Chad


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> OK MY TURN....What in the hell am I doing with all of this wine I'm making? I'm have a blast making it, but not sure if I'm of sound mind. I don't even hardly drink much. Probably have an ultierior motive for the future but none of us know what it is. No problem, the law/media will make something up when I get busted for jay walking drunk some night and look in my cellar.


 
lol....thank you, dan....i think that tad bit of comic relief is exactly what this thread needed right about now.....you da man...lol...


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## BobR (Dec 15, 2012)

And AMEN Julie, but it was nice to see that police sniper there with his 308 rifle.....just in case.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

GreginND said:


> 75% of NRA members favor a *criminal background check to purchase a gun.* 71% of NRA members support banning gun sales to* people on the terrorist watch list.* *Neither of these controls are in place in America *.


Not entirely accurate. With a few exceptions every commercially sold firearm the buyer is subjected to the FBI NICS.


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## TonyP (Dec 15, 2012)

If not now, when? Unfortunately, this is the time to discuss these issues because otherwise they don't get discussed. 

December 11th Clackamas Town Cener, Happy Valley, Oregon - 2 killed

August 5th - Sikh Temple, Oak Creek, Wisconsin - 7 killed

July 20th - Town Center, Aurora, Colorado - 12 killed

May 30th - Seattle Cafe, Washington - 6 killed

April 2nd - Oikos University - Oakland, California - 7 killed

Is anyone really opposed to reasonable gun control?


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## GreginND (Dec 15, 2012)

UBB said:


> Not entirely accurate. With a few exceptions every commercially sold firearm the buyer is subjected to the FBI NICS.



But about 40% of guns are sold by individuals without background checks. Only licensed dealers are required to do a background check before a sale.


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2012)

This is NOT the place to dicuss this!!!!!!!!!!!! If this continues I will lock down the thread so no one can post. Seriously, the last thing we should be doing is getting into a debate!


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## BobR (Dec 15, 2012)

Rocky said:


> I am not saying there is a direct cause-effect relationship here, but I wonder if anyone has ever at least studied the rise of gratuitous violence in motion picture films compared to films from the 30's, 40's, 50's and early 60's? I remember in "the olden days" people were shot or stabbed in movies but it was not at all graphic. Then, Sam Peckinpah came along with 6 gallons of blood in every scene in movies and now on TV and we started to see these mass murders. Could they be related? I don't know but I am asking, has anyone looked at this? A second concern I have are these games that my Grandchildren play over and over which are nothing but killing people by many means. They are very graphic and my concern is we may be programming our children with them.
> 
> For the first half of my life, the only mass murder I can remember was that of Richard Speck who murdered 8 nurses in Chicago in 1966 by strangulation or stabbing. Since then, we have had a number of school shootings, mall shootings, restaurant shootings, etc. conicidental with the rise of violence in movies, TV and games. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ or is there something there?



Yes Rocky there are studies that show the connection. Search Lt. Dave Grossman U.S.Army ret. He has written two books on the subject and has studied shootings all over the world. He does not allow his grandchildren to watch TV as we know it today. I will be attending his training class early next year.


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

Julie said:


> This is NOT the place to dicuss this!!!!!!!!!!!! If this continues I will lock down the thread so no one can post. Seriously, the last thing we should be doing is getting into a debate!


 
i said it as well, julie....could not agree with you more...all i wanted to do was express my sympathy and grief for the victims and their families....


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

TonyP said:


> Is anyone really opposed to reasonable gun control?


It could be argued that we already have 'reasonable' gun control and it doesn't work. Again, you can't legislate the crazy out of people. If someone is intent on harming a bunch of people they will always find a way.

Yesterday a mentally ill man in China walked into a school and attacked 20 some kids with a knife. By the grace of God no one was killed but the fact remains he was able to harm these kids with ONE KNIFE! Someone who is intent on harming a bunch of people will always find a way.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

GreginND said:


> But about 40% of guns are sold by individuals without background checks. Only licensed dealers are required to do a background check before a sale.


which is why I quantified my response with 'commercially sold' firearms. I do have doubts about your statistics though.


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## TonyP (Dec 15, 2012)

BobR said:


> As for TonyP, you are what we call the sheep. When the wolf shows up and threatens you and your flock, you hope that the sheep dog will come to your rescue. TonyP, I was the sheep dog and I got sick of protecting those who did absolutely nothing to protect themselves.



Bob, most of what you say is ranting, but I'll comment on this nonsense. I was never a cop, but several are my friends. I'm certain from numerous conversations with them any cop knows their job is only rarely to protect people in the way you say it. Most cops are hopeful when responding to a call that everyone isn't armed - not the other way around. I'm surprised that after being a cop you don't know what police do.


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

once again, i can only say that a tragedy of this magnetude could spark sooooo many debates on sooooo many levels.....gun control....nature of man....quality of health/mental health care in this country.....violence in movies and tv....as well as child rearing.....security in our schools....level of police protection...bottom line: this was a tragic event, and right now we should just reflect on it, send our sympathy, and for the rest of us that also have young ones, thank the lord that we have not had to face something like this....at least let the ashes cool a little before we start the debates....


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2012)

g8keeper said:


> once again, i can only say that a tragedy of this magnetude could spark sooooo many debates on sooooo many levels.....gun control....nature of man....quality of health/mental health care in this country.....violence in movies and tv....as well as child rearing.....security in our schools....level of police protection...bottom line: this was a tragic event, and right now we should just reflect on it, send our sympathy, and for the rest of us that also have young ones, thank the lord that we have not had to face something like this....at least let the ashes cool a little before we start the debates....


I disagree. If we didn't have discussions about important issues every time something terrible happens it'd be really quiet. The trick is to try and have a reasonable discussion. I know I'm not always that good at it, but I'm trying.


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## g8keeper (Dec 15, 2012)

UBB said:


> I disagree. If we didn't have discussions about important issues every time something terrible happens it'd be really quiet. The trick is to try and have a reasonable discussion. I know I'm not always that good at it, but I'm trying.


 
i will admit, one thing you just said i agree with....REASONABLE...butfrom some of the posts, it seems some have gotten a little heated, and border on personal attacks....not saying they ARE personal, but are walking a thin line....i just feel that maybe a few days afterwards would be more appropriate....but this is reinforcing one of my philosophies: that man is apparently a bit argumentative, and aggressive, by nature....lol...and in the immortal words of forrest gump, "that's all i have to say about that"......lol...


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## 2PUPs (Dec 15, 2012)

My heart and prayers go to all of the childrens families and to the teachers . It`s was horrible to hear about this . But there is a group of individuals that want to protest at the service being held , the name of the group is the westboro baptist church . They have protested at our U.S. soldiers funerals, trying to disrupt the service . Sorry if I got off track with the WBC protest , just that this sick group of individuals gets under my skin . If you never heard of these people , you tube WBC , and see what kind of things they do . Once again my heart and prayers to the families .


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## BernardSmith (Dec 15, 2012)

There is a time and a place to discuss sane gun control legislation and this may be neither the place nor the time but I am heart-sick at the thought of those 6 year olds being shot multiple times, according to the coroner as reported in the NY Times a short while ago. I don't celebrate Christmas, but I cannot but think of the way that this massacre of those children has so destroyed the idea of that festival for so many families as they bury their children. I wonder how many of those parents and relatives had chosen gifts for those children, had wrapped them and were looking forward to seeing their faces as they opened them and now those same families are suffering what must be the most terrible loss any human ever suffers - the loss of a son or a daughter. These are our families, our children. This is our tragedy, our unspeakable tragedy.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 16, 2012)

TURN OFF THE NEWS.......

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
... 
It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."


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## Julie (Dec 16, 2012)

Grace McDonnell, she just turned 7 last month.

Thanks Dan.


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## DirtyDawg10 (Dec 16, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> TURN OFF THE NEWS.......
> 
> Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :
> 
> ...


I was just about to put this up myself. This really hit the nail on the head!


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## tatud4life (Dec 16, 2012)

Finally!!! A celebrity that gets it!!! Very well said! Thanks for posting Dan!!


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## Ricky (Dec 16, 2012)

Really!!!! Thanks Dan..


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## g8keeper (Dec 17, 2012)

2PUPs said:


> My heart and prayers go to all of the childrens families and to the teachers . It`s was horrible to hear about this . But there is a group of individuals that want to protest at the service being held , the name of the group is the westboro baptist church . They have protested at our U.S. soldiers funerals, trying to disrupt the service . Sorry if I got off track with the WBC protest , just that this sick group of individuals gets under my skin . If you never heard of these people , you tube WBC , and see what kind of things they do . Once again my heart and prayers to the families .


 
2pups....i didn't know who the wbc was until i looked it up....when i did, i was appalled at the fact that these "christians" were going to be there, picketing....good grief....in the face of such a horrendous tragedy, these people want to show up for no other reason than to bolster their own personal agenda....i personally see absolutely no connection between their "cause" and this tragedy, other than trying to be a bunch of publicity and media attention wh#@$s!!!!!....i completely disgusted at the thought....just my $.02, but these people to me seem more like a group of hate mongers, than a group of "christians"...


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## g8keeper (Dec 17, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> TURN OFF THE NEWS.......
> 
> Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :
> 
> ...


 
dan, i could not agree anymore, and that is why i can't even say that i know the name of this monster that pertetrated this horrific act, nor do i even care to drudge it up to find out....but morgan is right, these people do these things in an attempt to get their "15 minutes of fame"....if the media refused to release THEIR names and such, and maybe only the names of the poor victims, then MAYBE we might see a decline in the number of such tragedies that have begun to plague society, but yet i do understand that it will by no means, UNFORTUNATELY, end it altogether...pure evil, i'm sorry to say, does exist in the world...


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## JohnT (Dec 17, 2012)

Dan, 

Like your post about the media. 

Folks, My heart does go out to the families. It is a REAL tragedy. 

But, in looking at how this event has angered people, I must say that the "piece of S**T" gunman has taken more away from us then the lives of 20 children. 

The reaction is anger and outrage. The reaction is to stop it from ever happening again. I fear that the steps we take to as a result of this will be far worse then the tradegy itself. 

Metal detectors in school? Armed school guards? Will we take what has happened and turn our schools into a prison? What about the kids, will they be growing up in constant fear? At that tendor age, the kids should be more worried about skinning a knee than having an armed gunman go on a rampage.

We need to remain calm and we should not let this event take over our lives. I see that this completely works against what the media would have us do. 

We should also try to put this event into perspective. Think of how many children (much younger ones too) that die each year because the parents are too lazy to put them into a car seat? I can tell you that the number of the dead far exceeds those that were gunned down on friday. Where is the outrage there?

I really hope that I am not offending anyone. I am not trying to down play just how horrible this event was. All I am saying is that we should not let this tradegy ruin our lives. We CAN fight back by carrying on.


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## Wiccan_Lager (Dec 18, 2012)

g8keeper said:


> 2pups....i didn't know who the wbc was until i looked it up....when i did, i was appalled at the fact that these "christians" were going to be there, picketing....good grief....in the face of such a horrendous tragedy, these people want to show up for no other reason than to bolster their own personal agenda....i personally see absolutely no connection between their "cause" and this tragedy, other than trying to be a bunch of publicity and media attention wh#@$s!!!!!....i completely disgusted at the thought....just my $.02, but these people to me seem more like a group of hate mongers, than a group of "christians"...



g8keeper,

The WBC is a group of savages that are highly educated in the laws of the United States, with fat pockets and have a twisted definition of religion. They use religion to spew hate but know the laws well enough to keep from getting in trouble.

The connection to their protesting the service(s) is this: God hates America because America tolerates homosexuals. So God is punishing the United States by causing wars that kill our soldiers, maniacs to kill our children and so on. Even so far as the the events of September 11th were pinned on Gods wratch on America for homosexuality.

So they protest events such as these services and the services of fallen soldies to promote their message that the only way to stop things like this is to get rid of the gays. That the death of these children should be looked upon as a good thing because their version of god (notice how I did not capitalize the 'g')wanted it to happen, in their eyes.

But I am not here to discuss politics, religion, gun control, gays and straights, laws and criminals. I feel that we need to stop blaming everything under the sun as a contributing factor to explain someone else's behavior. I think I heard some one report on the news one night "It's been known that the mother of the killer brought him to the gun range to shoot guns." Well...if that were a valid arguement then studies show that the probability that he watched a TV show that showed a gun being fired was almost 100%. He may have also watched the news and heard about war. \Who is to blame then? Cancel TV! WHO CARES!? Why point fingers at everything in the world except the indivual that was responisble for the act? Would you blame a womans reproductive orgnans for her being raped? No. Things and people exist in this world on their own. It's how we interact with ourselves and each others that matter.

Rather than look at who to blame, why not take a moment to look on the web for somethingyou can do. Donate to the families effected or remember their childrens names. Say thank you to the teachers in your life. Say I love you to the people closest in your life just a tad bit more often. Randomly do something nice for a stranger, not because you need to feel good, but maybe he or she needs to feel good. Lets honor those who passed by appreciating those who still live.

My heart and prayers to the kids, their families and EVERYONE that this has touched.


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## GreginND (Dec 18, 2012)

Well, I'll just say that the worst school killing in the US happened in 1927. This was the Bath, Michigan bombing that killed 38 students and several teachers and staff. I don't think it is as simple as violent movies, or guns, or mental illness.

I believe there has always been violence. We hear about it instantly now with modern technology and don't have to wait a day to read about it in a newspaper. And we hear about events that take place across the globe instantly. This I think makes it appear that there might be more violence today but I don't know if the facts support that assumption. It could just be our awareness and perception.

Needless to say it is a complicated problem with no single answer. But ignoring it solves nothing.


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## TonyP (Dec 18, 2012)

The thing that pains me about this debate is the regularity with which we're having it. I suppose the Bath bombing was the worst, but how about the years from 1927 to 1940. Can they compare with the period from Columbine to today?

I look at the candles and wreaths, athletes putting SH on their helmets and shoes, and press coverage. It seems to me all we're doing is getting good at grieving.


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## rezod11 (Dec 18, 2012)

I think it's time for a little reminder that not all people are bad...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/moments-that-restored-our-faith-in-humanity-this-y


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## the_rayway (Dec 18, 2012)

As a parent, and a human being I feel sick for those families. I hope everyone will take the time to send prayers, positive energy, love (however you feel most comfortable putting it) to everyone affected by this tragedy. 

Because of this, I hold my children just a little bit longer, and take that extra moment just to breathe them into my heart before I see them off.


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## UBB (Dec 19, 2012)

TonyP said:


> The thing that pains me about this debate is the regularity with which we're having it. I suppose the Bath bombing was the worst, but how about the years from 1927 to 1940. * Can they compare with the period from Columbine to today?*
> 
> I look at the candles and wreaths, athletes putting SH on their helmets and shoes, and press coverage. It seems to me all we're doing is getting good at grieving.



One thing is for certain in this country. Our attention span is very short and our memories are even worse. Columbine took place in the middle of the AWB that took effect in 1994.

The State of CT still has an AWB today.

Didn't work then, didn't work last week and certainly won't work tomorrow regardless of any new legislation. People who are intent on harming lots of people will always find a way. Prohibition does not work.


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## ibglowin (Dec 19, 2012)

If only the first victim, Adam Lanza's mother, had been a gun owner, she could have stopped this before it all started........


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## TonyP (Dec 19, 2012)

UBB said:


> One thing is for certain in this country. Our attention span is very short and our memories are even worse. Columbine took place in the middle of the AWB that took effect in 1994.
> 
> The State of CT still has an AWB today.
> 
> Didn't work then, didn't work last week and certainly won't work tomorrow regardless of any new legislation. People who are intent on harming lots of people will always find a way. Prohibition does not work.



I agree with everything you've said, except the very last part, "Prohibition does not work". I don't know whether the weapons ban works or not and possibly no one else knows, either. We really can't know whether other incidents would have occurred without the ban, because there was a ban.

I don't think that makes trying worthless. Just about every law is violated, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws.

Overall, I think this debate is crazy. I doubt most gun owners really care strongly about combat-style weapons, armor piercing rounds, high capacity magazines, and reasonable background checks. Likewise, I doubt the anti-gun crowd wants to eliminate guns used for sporting, target, and self defense.


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## MonteroRed (Dec 19, 2012)

Ban prozac not guns


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## MonteroRed (Dec 19, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> If only the first victim, Adam Lanza's mother, had been a gun owner, she could have stopped this before it all started........



I'm pretty sure she bought the guns... It's not legal to buy handguns until your 21. He was 20..... It's not legal to buy body armor unless you are law enforcement..... Which all three gunmen from the last three big televised shootings had. ????? Anyway question everything or believe the media.....


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## joea132 (Dec 19, 2012)

I am an avid gun owner and I do own an AR-15. I carry a pistol most every day so long as it falls within the law. I will say that I am completely against banning AR-15s. Now undoubtedly in the wrong hands it is a machine of death but so is a knife or a sports car. I use mine for sport shooting and as a collector piece. I have never pointed it at another human being and myself and all of my AR sporting friends never would. 

When considering making something illegal such as an AR, we should look at the demographic we are looking to remove the guns from. People who will kill other people. Criminals. The word criminal implies that you are already breaking the law. How will instating another law help? This thinking is emotionally fueled and logically flawed. There are plenty of fully automatic weapons in the hands of gangsters in inner cities that ignore the current strict assault rifle laws. 

I will say that I do support the consideration of background checks for long guns. There are plenty of people who should not own long guns that have slipped through the cracks. Owning a firearm is a large responsibility and background checks are all good idea. In CT you can buy an AR15 (CT compliant meaning no telescoping stocks, pinned muzzle, and 16 inch barrel) with only a drivers license and a 2 week wait. If you have your pistol permit or hunting license it is an over the counter deal. I support the idea of stricter checks for anybody owning a gun in this country. 

Let me clarify the definitions of firearms in our state. A long gun is a rifle or shotgun that has a barrel over 16 inches in CT. A pistol is a handheld firearm. And assault rifle under current CT legislation is a firearm that is fully automatic with the option of being semi automatic as well. A machine gun is strictly a fully automatic firearm. There are certain firearms that are explicitly named in the 1994 ban, AKs, Tec 9s, etc. A semi automatic rifle is considered a rifle unless it falls under the specific named ban. A Bushmaster is a semi automatic only rifle. So many people think an AR15 is a fully automatic weapon,it is NOT. 

I agree if this maniac had not had an AR15 then the carnage may have been less. But as a pistol carrying citizen of this country who happens to live 2 towns away, I wish I could have been there to change things. Me and my father were at the shooting range, practicing our pistol competency when the shootings happened. The answer is not to demonize an inanimate object but to think rationally about who we are selling them too. Having responsible armed citizens is a good thing. Would a criminal bent on killing as many people as he can walk into a crowded room knowing that a large number of people carry concealed firearms? I think not. And I would gladly defend my fellow citizen with the pistol I carry on a daily basis should I be placed in the situation even if it meant my life. That's not the firefighter instinct in me, that's the responsibly armed citizen speaking.


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## UBB (Dec 19, 2012)

TonyP said:


> Overall, I think this debate is crazy. I doubt most gun owners really care strongly about combat-style weapons, armor piercing rounds, high capacity magazines, and reasonable background checks. Likewise, I doubt the anti-gun crowd wants to eliminate guns used for sporting, target, and self defense.


You really have no grasp of what the 2nd amendment is all about do you. All you seem to be good at is throwing out buzz words and liberal talking points and general nonsense. You seem to have very little knowledge about the subject matter. 

Combat style weapons. What does that mean? Do you even know?

Armor piercing rounds?? Where and how does one get some because they sound interesting, I might like some of those. 

What is a high capacity magazine exactly? It suggests something extra ordinary so you can't possibly mean 20 and 30 round magazines when you talk about AR-15 type weapons as those are the STANDARD magazines for that kind of rifle. So do you mean belt felt weapons? Those would fall under the NFA guidelines and it takes more then a phone call at the local sporting goods store to acquire one.

Reasonable back ground checks?? Please elaborate since I'm very well versed on the current gun laws as the NFA regulations and can tell you that every commercially sold firearm in this country involves a back ground check involving a FBI database in the form the NICS.(National Instant Criminal Background Check System)

Again, you mention sporting and target purposes and again I urge you to read the Bill of Rights and educate yourself.


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## UBB (Dec 19, 2012)

The red text are my words.



joea132 said:


> I will say that I do support the consideration of background checks for long guns. As previously mentioned there are back ground checks already in place, so what exactly are you proposing?There are plenty of people who should not own long guns that have slipped through the cracks. Owning a firearm is a large responsibility and background checks are all good idea. In CT you can buy an AR15 (CT compliant meaning no telescoping stocks, pinned muzzle, and 16 inch barrel) with only a drivers license and a 2 week wait.It should be noted that all the regulations you just mentions have zero effect on the lethality of the weapon, only appearance If you have your pistol permit or hunting license it is an over the counter deal. I support the idea of stricter checks for anybody owning a gun in this country.
> 
> Let me clarify the definitions of firearms in our state. A long gun is a rifle or shotgun that has a barrel over 16 inches in CT.Any long gun with a barrel length less then 16" falls under the NFA guidelines which requires much more effort to obtain A pistol is a handheld firearm. And assault rifle under current CT legislation is a firearm that is fully automatic with the option of being semi automatic as well.Which, by your definition is a 'select fire' weapon, thus falls under the NFA A machine gun is strictly a fully automatic firearm. There are certain firearms that are explicitly named in the 1994 ban, AKs, Tec 9s, etc. A semi automatic rifle is considered a rifle unless it falls under the specific named ban. A Bushmaster is a semi automatic only rifle. So many people think an AR15 is a fully automatic weapon,it is NOT.
> 
> I agree if this maniac had not had an AR15 then the carnage may have been less.Please elaborate. Substitute the AR for any handgun or pump action shotgun and explain how less children would have died. But as a pistol carrying citizen of this country who happens to live 2 towns away, I wish I could have been there to change things. If that is really true you seriously would have preferred a handgun over a rifle?


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## joea132 (Dec 19, 2012)

UBB said:


> The red text are my words.



Question 1. There are only simple criminal background checks for long guns right now. If you are not a felon, you can buy a long gun with a 2 week wait. There is no mention acuity exam. 

Question 2. Huge lethality difference. Shorter length barrels allow you to conceal easier to get into a more vulnerable position before you fire upon your victims. Pinned muzzles mean you can't affix a silencer, and telescoping stocks fall under the same position as short barrels. 

Questions 3 and 4. I was simply educating people on what the current laws were. No argument there. Simple facts. 

Question 5. I am affirming that an AR15 is an efficient weapon should it be used that way. You can simply sling more rounds through an AR15 then you can a break action rifle and in turn kill more victims in a faster period of time. There can be no argument there. As for a pump action shotgun or handgun, there is more time for reloading in between shots, just like the above example. A handgun has roughly 10-14 shots between reload and a pump shotgun about 5. And AR 15 standard magazine is 30 rounds. Again this all hinges on how the tool is used. 

Let's not spin this into a "all guns are dangerous" argument either. While there is some merit in that, it depends on how they are used. I have a shotgun for home defense, a pistol for self defense, and a rifle for sport shooting. I also have rifles and shotguns for hunting. I possess the necessary mental prerequisites to know when to use each and the consequences of my actions. 

Question 6. I practice with all of my firearms and I know that if I intend to stop a person with it when they are in my sights, they will be stopped. I wouldn't be carrying a rifle around and have the opportunity to stop somebody, that's just not practical or legal. That argument is invalid. But should I be armed and caught in a similar situation, I feel that the use of a firearm would at the very least deter a shooter and significantly change the outcome. If you can't at least agree with that then you are beyond reasoning with.

The basic boiled down missing link here is how a person intends to use a gun. If somebody is mentally deficient, they should not be allowed to own a gun. Plain and simple. I don't think you'll find and gun nut that would argue against that.


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## ibglowin (Dec 19, 2012)

There has already been one warning here folks on this thread.......


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## UBB (Dec 19, 2012)

Again, it's me in the red.


joea132 said:


> Question 1. There are only simple criminal background checks for long guns right now.And that to you is unreasonable? If you are not a felon, you can buy a long gun with a 2 week wait.IMO it's unreasonable you have to wait 2 weeks. NICS takes minutes. There is no mention acuity exam. I'm going to assume this is a typo and you meant 'mental acuity' exam. Seems to me you should be arguing for better mental health treatment in this country and not so much more gun laws.
> 
> Question 2. Huge lethality difference. Shorter length barrels allow you to conceal easier to get into a more vulnerable position before you fire upon your victims. And I'll mention again that there are already pretty stringent regulations in place with regards to short barrel long guns in the for of NFA. I guess I should have been more clear. These regulations are cosmetic. The do nothing to alter the functioning of the weapon.Pinned muzzles mean you can't affix a silencer, You mean a suppressor, no such thing as a 'silencer' That is a Hollywood creation. And suppressors fall under NFA guidelines as well. and telescoping stocks fall under the same position as short barrels.
> 
> ...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M1u0Byq5Qis


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## UBB (Dec 19, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> There has already been one warning here folks on this thread.......


I'm confused?

Do we need to start a different thread to have this discussion?


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## ibglowin (Dec 19, 2012)

No but you do need to be polite. Consider yourself warned.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2012)

Guys and Gals, this is a very emotionally charged subject and we all feel helpless, frustrated and powerless in the wake of this unspeakable tragedy. Just a suggestion, why not carry on your discussion through private messages?


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## joea132 (Dec 20, 2012)

UBB said:


> Again, it's me in the red.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M1u0Byq5Qis



As far as background checks, it is proof that people have slipped through the legal cracks that would outlaw them from buying a firearm. My girlfriend's brother has a traumatic brain injury, has been psychiatrically evaluated for years and can buy a gun in 2 weeks. He is a drug addict, has been driving in his car with plates he stole from his parents and without a license and been pulled over 4 times now with only promises to appear. He has had violent tendencies in the household and holds no criminal record that would exempt him from buying a gun tomorrow. He has been sent to rehab programs to escape sentences multiple times. 

He could buy a gun (with his $60k a year he makes from his TBI lawsuit) and commit a similar atrocity in a 2 week period. As much as in my heart I'm a pro gun advocate, this scares me. These people should not have access. I do agree we need to step up mental health programs, wholeheartedly. 

As far as the 2 week wait, it was explained to me that it is to deter somebody who is angry at another person from being able to buy a gun in the heat of the moment and exact revenge. I can understand that. No matter how fast the database comes back on a otherwise unarmed citizen. 

I also disagree that length is cosmetic. If you were to walk into a shopping mall with a full length rifle, people would spot it and draw attention much sooner than if you had a more concealable weapon and placed yourself in a more tactically suitable spot to massacre. It has little to do with the function of the weapon, agreed, but everything to do with intention which is the basis of our disagreement. 

As far as my terminology is concerned, yes you are correct. Silencer is not the correct term. Thank you for the editing, however it goes along with my above scenario. How long until people draw attention to a person's actions. 

Let's take a second to consider magazine capacity and how one would carry it. If a person has an AR15 with a 100rd magazine and spares, they could theoretically shoot almost non stop until they ran out of magazines. While not totally out of the realm of possibility, one may be able to send similar rounds down range with a pistol, although with more magazine changes. I have little problem banning high capacity magazines. They serve no purpose but for massacres. I would definitely give my 100rd AR15 magazine up. I bought it for the same reason I needed a hanna sulfite tester.... I didn't. 
The fact that it is a gun free zone is significant. It goes to show that another gun control law didn't stop the shooter but rather encouraged him. More time reloading in a gun free zone gives more opportunity for escape. Plain and simple. But here's another law that could have played into the whole scenario. The shooter, when choosing a place to carry out his mad plans, must have considered the fact that nobody else would have a gun there. It gave him a safe haven to murder children. While I don't necessarily support arming teachers, schools being gun free are significant. Would any shooter perform a massacre if he knew that half of the people he was going to encounter that day were carrying pistols? I think not. 

The video you posted is strongly pro gun on all accounts. I'm not sure what your stand is on the issue. To sum up my feelings, I feel like there should be better control over who gets guns, better mental health care and documentation, consideration for a ban on high capacity magazines and a more supportive government of those who lawfully carry protection.


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## UBB (Dec 20, 2012)

joea132 said:


> *. I have little problem banning high capacity magazines. They serve no purpose but for massacres.*



Incorrect. One only has to understand and believe in the Constitution of the United States to realize that they do indeed serve an enormous purpose in protecting the Republic.


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## Wade E (Dec 20, 2012)

SOAB! I just typed up 3 paragraphs only to have a glitch in my stupid DSL and lose it all! In short I have an AR-15 with 11 30 round clips, 3 high capacity clips for my Glock 19 and a 12 gauge shotgun with pistol grip. Banning the use or sales of these guns isnt the answer, thats like saying we should ban a corvette as it goes faster then the speed limit but we do need to come up with something, maybe a psychiatric evaluation to obtain a gun permit? Maybe we do need to utilize the armed forces in our schools?

*Lets keep this very civil people! Do not attack each other or we will have to close this thread. Its why politics and religion are no no's on forums because they spiral out of control 99% of the time and people attack other people and then we have to police the forum making us look like the bad guys.*


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 20, 2012)

Agreed Wade, I will keep this very civil.

We are all extremely passionate about the Elementary school shooting, these children were are future, they did not deserve the cold calculated murderous end to their lives, the children that survived, their innocence has been taken from them, they will never feel safe, nor do i supposed that they will ever trust again.

It is hard to think about this tragedy and try to come up with something positive about guns, and to be honest, I am thankful that we live in a country where we can have a difference of opinions, but my mind races back to the Luby's Diner massacre in Texas in 1991, 50 people shot, 23 killed. 

Suzanna Hupp and her parents were eating lunch. Hupp reached for her .38 revolver in her purse, only to realize she had left it in her vehicle as per the concealed weapon laws of the day, her mother and father were among the people killed, could she have prevented this? Very possible.

Most legal gun owners are not the wild west gun carrying types, I carry my 45 concealed everywhere but church on Sunday. I am a big man, you would think that I wouldn't move away from any kind of confrontation, but I do, as gun owners, most of us know that we have an incredible responsibility, but we also know that we can protect ourselves and our family.

That said,

I agree that maybe mental health issues should be flagged when you do a background check, but it wont happen, with the amount of adults and children that have seen doctors for anxiety or other mental health issues in the past 10 years, a very small percentage of the population would be eligible for a firearm, big business and politics wouldn't allow it to happen. 

The first thing that we need to do is to stop the media from making these killers famous, this is their 15 mins of fame, in my opinion, they are fueling their need for attention, there should be strict laws against what the news, newspapers and TV in general have done to immortalize this murderers.

As far as allowing long guns like rifles instead of pistols? A rifle round will penetrate an officers vest with ease, it will give these killers the option of hiding and killing from a distance, bad choice. 
If someone wants to conceal a long arm, they will, trench coats are a common sight, and due to the politically correct country that we live in, God forbid that we stop and question someone that just doesn't look right, that would mean that we are profiling, or violating their rights.

As a country, we have allowed ourselves to be so politically correct that we cannot discipline our children, it is child abuse, we cannot question someone, that is violating their civil rights.....we have allowed a whole generation to be able to run a muck.

*For those of us that are 30-50 yrs old:*
Growing up, how many times did you read about someone walking into a school and killing children?
How many times did you read about someone killing everyone at their job?

Everyone is afraid to get involved these days, there is a major lack of respect, it's almost like the "inmates are running the prison".

*High Capacity magazines*
This would cure the problem? Eliminating magazines that hold more than, let's say for arguments sake, 10 rounds, would make us safer?
Nonsense, I can drop a clip and have another clip in my 45 in a blink of an eye, this is just something that the media has focused on to try to make themselves look like experts on the topic of firearms. 
*It's kind of like saying that a car that seats 4 people can kill fewer people than a car that seats 6 if it were to swerve out of control into a crowd....*



> I have little problem banning high capacity magazines. They serve no purpose but for massacres.


Joe you cannot really believe this? Do you?

Sorry for the long post.


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## TonyP (Dec 20, 2012)

Tom, please don't take this personal, but I'd be interested in a response. You suggest high capacity magazines serve a purpose other than massacres, but don't say what that is. Putting aside a Constitutional right (because these magazines are not guaranteed by the Constitution), what other substantial value do they serve, beyond saving a few seconds time when target shooting.


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## UBB (Dec 20, 2012)

TonyP said:


> Putting aside a Constitutional right (because these magazines are not guaranteed by the Constitution), .


*A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.*


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## TonyP (Dec 20, 2012)

UBB said:


> *A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.*



And you suggested earlier I don't know the Constitution. EVERY amendment in the Bill of Rights has limitations, including the second. You can't own surface to air missiles, grenades, and much more. 

I'll say again what I said before, there is no Constitutional right to high capacity magazines. Can someone explain to me why they need one?


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## UBB (Dec 20, 2012)

TonyP said:


> And you suggested earlier I don't know the Constitution. EVERY amendment in the Bill of Rights has limitations, including the second. *You can't own surface to air missiles, grenades, and much more. *
> 
> I'll say again what I said before, there is no Constitutional right to high capacity magazines. Can someone explain to me why they need one?


Maybe we should be able to is what I would argue.
The 2nd Amendment was put in place to protect the people from a tyrannical government. Whether it is 1812 with muskets or 2012 with semi automatic rifles it doesn't matter. The people need to be on as equal ground as possible when it comes the right to bear arms. Banning firearm magazines does the opposite of that thus it's unconstitutional.

And I'll say it again. When in reference to an AR type rifle a 30 rnd magazine is not high capacity. You are using political buzz words in your descriptions. A 30 round magazine for an AR-15 is standard. It's not extra ordinary.


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## joea132 (Dec 20, 2012)

What I consider a high capacity magazine is a 100 round magazine for an AR15. 30 rounds being the standard and I have no issues with them. The 40 and 50 round magazines are all judgement call. I'm not really sure if they have a place or not. I do think 30 round pistol magazines are all bit much too. 

I have a tough time thinking an AR would be a deterrent for a tyrannical government that has tanks, bombs, predator missiles, etc. I do think if we ever had a major collapse of government or natural disaster that they would be purposeful in protecting your family. 

It is so difficult to say ban this, not that. This can stay, etc. Unfortunately we will be at the mercy of our lawmakers who will be making these decisions very soon.


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## grapeman (Dec 20, 2012)

There are Rules and Regulations in effect on this forum.

***********************Please Read*************************************************************************

This thread was started as a reaction to a horrible situation in one of our schools. It has turned into a debate on guns/gun control.
According to rule 15. No debate threads in General Chit Chat. 
This thread has turned into just that and if you respect the forum rules, we must get off this gun and gun control subject, otherwise the thread will be closed or deleted as commented on earlier. This is not censorship as some will argue, just enforcement of the rules, just like law enforcement is supposed to enforce our societies rules, we must enforce ours- otherwise they are meaningless.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 21, 2012)

grapeman said:


> There are Rules and Regulations in effect on this forum.
> 
> ***********************Please Read*************************************************************************
> 
> ...


 
I think this thread has remained very civil. I would see no reason to close it. Having a debate about this subject is stirring emotions because of the subject. It is no different than debating whether a Cab Sauv is better than a Merlot as long as the debate remains civil which in my opinion it is.


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## ibglowin (Dec 21, 2012)

If you want to debate the difference between 2 wines you have come to the right place. If you want to debate gun control you need to find another forum.


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## joea132 (Dec 21, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> If you want to debate the difference between 2 wines you have come to the right place. If you want to debate gun control you need to find another forum.



With all due respect, isn't that what the general chit-chat forum is for? While the topic definitely provokes emotions, we have been civil, well spoken, and respectful to each other. I think of this forum as a group of friends from whom I value opinions.

I am finished debating. I feel that I have stated my case clearly and any more back and forth would be a waste of time and forum space.


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## ibglowin (Dec 21, 2012)

This forum is called general chit chat, not general debate. I would beg to differ that this thread has been civil and respectful on a few post.

Lets move on.


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## MonteroRed (Dec 22, 2012)

Moving on. 

I coach kids trapshooting.... I am a avid shooter, and nra member. My son shoots and neither of us have mental health problems. We love our freedoms and are not a danger to the general public, please don't punish the law abiding citizen for the actions of a psychotic predator. Why punish the lawful for the actions of the lawless...


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## Bartman (Dec 22, 2012)

ffemt128 said:


> Having a debate about this subject is stirring emotions because of the subject. It is no different than debating whether a Cab Sauv is better than a Merlot as long as the debate remains civil which in my opinion it is.



I have no intention of stepping into this quagmire, but this is too funny! I have to say this debate is just a *bit* different from a Cab vs. Merlot debate. Very few Cab vs. Merlot debates around here include references to 'magazines' not entitled "Winemaker".

Besides, everyone knows Cab always wins...


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## ffemt128 (Dec 22, 2012)

MonteroRed said:


> Moving on. Here is my baby. Wish I could but another one... One of those mags is the new 60 round surefire. I bet I could get a small fortune out of that badboy.
> 
> View attachment 6411
> 
> ...


 

I agree we should not punish the lawabiding citizen due the the actions of the lawless. It was the not the gun respinsible for the killing. The primary responsibility falls on one individual with possible mental issues. Mental issues that were known by the mother who in turn purchased the firearms used in the killing. She was the first to pay the price.

I am a law abiding citizen who owns firearms. In the state of PA, every firearm purchase through a dealer much go through a criminal back ground check. You must state if you have ever been involuntarily ccomitted for psychiatric evaluation. I believe it is a felonly if you lie on this form, which in it of it self makes you a prohibited person. Long gun purchases between private individuals do not require a back ground check provided both parties are residents of the state of PA and neither are a prohibited person. Yes, people slip through the cracks, I would be willing to bet, the majoroty of the crimes committed with are firearm are not committed with a legally purchased firearm to begin with. Hence criminal activity has already taken place.

I have had firearms in my home all my life. Never once have they been pointed at another individual. Why? At a young age I was taught respect for firearms, rules for safe handling, and saw first hand what damage could be done with a firearm. My firearm will never be pointed at another human unless I am defending myself, my family, my loved ones, or another individual. It's just how it is as a law abiding citizen. I rarely hune anymore but I enjoy going to the range with my two sons and shooting everything from .22 rifles to AR-15's. 

I have taught all my older children how to shoot at a young age. I have a 5 y/o now and I intend on getting her her first .22 rifle to shoot within the next 2 years. It's about early education and early respect for the firearm.

IMHO, the problem today is society. People want instant gratification in everything they do. There's this whole notion "it takes a village to raise a child" I call BS on this. It starts at home. You need two loving parents to start. I realize two parent homes don't always exist, but it still starts at home. CHildren these days are not taught respect for others as we were taught growing up. Parents are not permitted to punish their children for fear of retribution and a call to CYS if god forbid you punish your child. Children do not have "rights" so to speak until they are 18. Until such time they have the right to do as their parent tell them to and to listen to their elders. But sadly society has given them some idea that they have the same rights as adults. Parents need to be allowed to get back to parenting when way those of us 30+ were raised. When if we did wrong, we knew the punishment and therefore we didn't. 

Before we look at more legislation that will only affect the law abiding citizent, we should enforce them amny laws already on the books, stop the plea bargains, and then maybe we should also consider a phychological evaluation and IQ test before people are permitted to procreate.


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## grapeman (Dec 22, 2012)

Again I say this post had no intentions of being a gun control debate and there is no room for it. I am therefore closing this at this time. What a shame. It was meant to show sympathy to all those involved.

Anyone thinking this is censorship- call it what you like- It is Rule #15 of the forum rules- No debate threads in general chit chat.


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