# Mommy, Daddy, what makes wine grape leaves green.



## corinth (Oct 31, 2013)

I do not know squat about wine making but I appreciate all that you have shared with me so since you have this Chit chat page, I think is great.

So here is my question: Why do we see the green leaves in grapes green and not another color?

I know you all have some obvious answers but this question concerns more of the physics of color. I think light theory and color is really interesting stuff and NO, I am not trying to be "high and mighty." just sharing a bit of info to thank all of you for so much that you know.

Whatever you answer, I will NEVER be sarcastic or be impolite or condescending. That aint my way and never has been. I hope i get about five responses or more and I hope a lot of people view part of the answer as every answer leads to another question.


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## Poni (Oct 31, 2013)

Chlorophyll! Yes! Right?


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## JohnT (Nov 1, 2013)

Yes, chlorophyll.. 

This compound is lies at the center of the photosynthetic process. In this process, sunlight, co2, and water are turned into simply sugars (which combine to form starches and other building blocks of plants). 

With only few exceptions, like fungus (which are not normally green), all plants use photosynthisys to grow. 

When leaves change color in the fall, it is because the leaves have died and the chlorophyll in them has decomposed.


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## Downwards (Nov 1, 2013)

Here's more fun facts on that. Chlorophyll is not actually green it only reflects green. But that's true of everything that is a color. The interesting thing about that to me is that it tells us what spectrum of light green plants want to absorb and therefore not reflect- the blue and red spectrum. But there are other pigments in the leaves that have other jobs- and we see them when the leaf is dying and the chlorophyll is gone- red, yellow, etc. The reason that deciduous leaves change color.


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## jswordy (Nov 1, 2013)

Nuh-uh! It's the plant fairy!


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 1, 2013)

Well you got me stumped, because I dont see green leaves...I see blue leaves....because I am colored blind with greens and blues..
haha. yelp i see them opposite of everyone else...kinda weird but I have learned to live with it.....my ocean is allways green my grass always blue.
Go figure.


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## jswordy (Nov 1, 2013)

Uh, whut color is yer sky? Just wondering...


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## Rampage4all (Nov 1, 2013)

My wild grapes in Louisiana have purple leaves every few years.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 1, 2013)

my sky well...kinda greenish blue...depends on the clouds.
i have seen grapes with purple leaves.


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## corinth (Nov 1, 2013)

*why are green leaves on grapes green*

Wow, 
After a mere three answers, you folks know your stuff! 

Everyone so far has touched on a different aspect all of which is correct. I said at the beginning that each answer always leads to another question?

"Downwards", you sound a bit like me in that you said "the interesting thing about that to me." You have nailed down so much of the color physics that I know you are being modest.

Poni: Chlorophyll is correct!

John T: you know your biology better than I do! Will you grow my grape vines for me?

Yup, it starts with the electromagnetic spectrum which ranges from gamma rays on one side which are harmful but essential for stuff like radiation therapy to the other side of the spectrum which are not harmful like infrared(where did I leave my T.V remote).

In the middle of the spectrum we have something called visual light, heat, the visual spectrum, color from purple to red. 

This spectrum shines down on our plants and they absorb the light rays, go through the process of photosynthesis(Photon is the smallest particle of observable light( photon torpedo's!) and then there is the process of reflection which goes out from the plant *Where, how and why? *


I know you folks are going to nail this and that is why you folks know how to make wine cause you know the details and that everything in the universe effects everything else
(I think Thor would disagree, however!)

All of this is just for fun but I have always been fascinated by light theory!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 1, 2013)

corinth said:


> Wow,
> and then there is the process of reflection which goes out from the plant *Where, how and why? *



Are you asking why dielectric materials reflect light?

It is because (in absence of any surface charge or current) the normal components of the B and D fields must be equal across any interface between two materials of different dielectric properties. Similarly, the tangential components of the E and H fields must also be equal across the interface. 

For an electromagnetic wave incident on a dielectric, it is not possible to satisfy these boundary conditions if there is only a transmitted electromagnetic wave. In order to satisfy these conditions, there must also be a component of the wave that is reflected back into the original medium.


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## corinth (Nov 1, 2013)

*Mommy, why are grape leaves green*

OOPs, again, I forgot to acknowledge the rest of you--my Apologies!

HM?? if there is a plant fairy, I am too old to even take a gander but the plant fairy looks a lot like Sandra Bullock...well to me at least.

I think the question "what color is the sky in my world funny. I would often tell that to one of my friends when they said something that was truly odd? However, for those individuals who take stuff like LSD, the sky and color take on a whole new meaning!

However, I digress. The color of my sky is usually tinged with a grayish haze at times (no such color as gray)but that leads to a whole "nother area which I will try to touch upon as soon as I look over my notes and you folks help me!

JamesGalveston: Kinda makes you wonder about Kentucky blue grass, don't it?

Fascinating stuff! keep those cards and letters coming!


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## corinth (Nov 2, 2013)

*Mommy, Daddy, why are the leaves in grapes green*

Sour Grapes:
Wow, in the words of Darth Vader," Impressive, most impressive." I am going to have to look up some of what you have said "cause" it shore is sophisticated but as always...I am fascinated!

Actually, I am asking a different Question or questions?

One is the color green we see really the color of the green leaves.

Two: What part of our brain interprets this color and how.

I know you folks will know the answer to this one.

PS: A side note: the actual color of the grapes themselves is more complicated than I can understand. It does however have to do with genetic mutation of the that takes place in the variety of grapes( I think there are over 5000 but don't quote me) and then you have the other factors come into play that we have mentioned before. 

When this is finally done---if ever, then I will try , with your help, to summarize what everybody has said. That will not be easy.

I will then try to bring up some fun facts or activities that you can do with your children or grandchildren.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 2, 2013)

Let me put some of that in more laymen's terms, or, actually, what I want to do is to present a cheesy analogy for that process.

Consider a rope that is light (thin), and then is spliced to a rope that is quite heavy (thick). The ropes are stretched out. Now imagine that you hold the light rope, and wiggle it up and down to send a train of wave pulses along it. When the wave train hits the splice, some of the wave continues into the heavy rope, of course. However, some of the wave is reflected back into the lighter rope. This is because certain conditions have to be met everywhere, and, in particular, at the interface between the ropes. Momentum and energy must be conserved. It turns out that it is not possible to conserve the momentum and energy of the wave train without have a backscattered component, that is, a wave that is reflected from this interface, and that travels back along the light rope towards you.


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## Downwards (Nov 2, 2013)

Color is not really an objective thing (especially for you right?) but is actually just an interpretation our brains make of the spectrum of light our eyes are seeing. If there are no eyes or brains, there are no colors. As far as spectrum of light goes, that is objective as it can get, though we name the spectrums for the colors we see them as, but there are other spectrums we are blind in even while other animals can see in them. 
White is all the colors we can see together, so anything that appears white to you is actually just reflecting all the colors we see in, but what color is it? That's not really a question that makes sense unless you have something to see with. Anyone who knows more about this stuff, please correct anything I say that is wrong here. I've just taken lots of classes relevant to this stuff, but they are pretty basic classes- Anatomy, Physiology, Chemistry, Plant Biology...

Your color blindness actually sounds interesting to me, it's not the common variety is it? Most people are red- green color blind.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 2, 2013)

corinth said:


> Actually, I am asking a different Question or questions?
> 
> One is the color green we see really the color of the green leaves.



Yes. By definition.


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## corinth (Nov 3, 2013)

*Mommy, Daddy, why are the leaves in grapes green*

The old Chinese proverb " Be careful what you ask for" comes into play here!
Sour-Grapes: I love the way you took a very sophisticated concept and put it into layman's or laywomen's terms. I spent some time reading on Dielectric materials and the transmission of energy and it still makes my head spin but is fascinating! If there is a particular website that would further educate me, I would be grateful!

I think you are totally right and would not question your physics no-how. 
The Dielectric material does not seem(correct me if I am wrong and I probably am ) to apply to living plants as they utilize light rays does it but it does appear to explain how we see color in non living things such as a green chair. Again, correct me if I am wrong and I probably am.

I would love to sit down with one someday as we share info but that will probably not occur in this lifetime but who knows!

Humility opens many doors and am humbled but not sure which door to open at this point!


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## corinth (Nov 3, 2013)

*Mommy, Daddy, why are the leaves in grapes green*

Downwords: 

I did not want to leave you out as you so eloquently replied with some great stuff!

Color is not objective thing but that will always be up to debate which depends on which physicist was the mentor. Our brains do interpret color in that once the light rays which are not necessarily utilized by plant(green makes it simple) it enters our eyes, goes to the back of the eyeball and stimulates color cones which are red, green and blue. The green cone is stimulated and is sent to another part of our brain which we then associate a name with it! Mommy said it is green so after awhile, unless we are colorblind--we learn it is green!

You are definitely right that with the Electromagnetic spectrum there is a wide range of wavelength we do not see since our eyes were not meant to see these.

As for other Animals, some reptiles have excellent infrared abilities while other animals do not see color at all. It reminds me of a Matador who waves the Red cape at the bull. The bull cannot see red--it only is ticked off by this guy waving that stupid cape!

Some Birds have tissue that is actually magnetized so that is why they can migrate thousands of miles since they lock into the magnetic field which surrounds the earth and can fly from south America way up north. NO GPS needed!

I think everything you are saying makes perfect sense even though the real expert here is Sour_Grapes.

As for the green color we see from a green leaf? Correct me if I am wrong but those wavelengths (green) are reflected out into our eyes since not all of the wavelength is necessary for the plant to utilize for Photosynthesis. 

So, is the plant really green? Plants use red and infrared from the sun for energy and green is not necessarily the wavelength that plants use so they in simple terms--spit them out and we see GREEN!

This is put simply because I am not including the biology that was mentioned before by another member.
ELECTROMAGNETIC SPECTRUM

Gamma rays- x-rays ---ultraviolet--visual spectrum--- infrared-radar-FM-TV-
(these are harmful) (visual spectrum) (not harmful)
Visual spectrum very small which are eyes can see
V
Heat or color(combined called white sunlight or radiant energy
V
Purple-Blue - green- yellow- orange- red

Almost next to last, Colorblindness or color deficiency is the lack of cones in the eye(generally). Red is the most common and from there it gets into very rare types.It can any combination but those with no color cones at all we see them as "albinos" and they are very sensitive to light and cancer.

Plant Fairy: I guess they exist as they seem to carry sunlight and rain to our plants

Correct anything that you wish--the neurons in my brain are overloaded!

Lastly, If you were to ask my grandson why the leaves are green, he would say, "because it is my favorite color"


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## LeChat (Nov 3, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> ..because I am colored blind with greens and blues..
> haha. yelp i see them opposite of everyone else...k



Hey... That's not how color blindness works. Someone that is color blind is unable to differentiate between the two colors. 

Are you sure you just don't know your colors? 

Lol, it happens!


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 3, 2013)

been color blind my whole life...lol but thanks...first encounter was when i was about 5, my mom gave me a shirt for school and I told here i did not like green shirts, she....kinda shocked said it was blue....lol


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## corinth (Nov 3, 2013)

*Mommy, Daddy, why are grape leaves green?*

James Galveston:
I truly respect all your knowledge of wine making ( have read a lot of your post!)and I respect even more the fact that you would in this forum state some things about your color deficiency. 

A lot of this you can look up on Google cause there really is a lot to it. I have two friends who cannot see different colors.

A example is one of my friends cannot see red. So instead of seeing red, he sees a grayish black. 

I will share a story with you that I think you will find funny,

One of my friend's who is married works in an office so every morning, he would lay out his clothes. He one morning got into a "discussion" with his wife about something that she did not like. So as usual, he asked her if all the shirts and ties he had picked out matched. They did not! so when he asked her about the color combinations, she replied. "*you look fine*!" needless to say, when he got to work, his friends gave him a hard time. Yes, they are still married but he tells me that he never gets into an argument in the morning with her until after all the clothes match.


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## corinth (Nov 3, 2013)

*Mommy, Daddy, why are grape leaves green*

Oh, as I side note,

years ago when I was dating and John Travolta and I wore the same type of clothes, I was known to many others to be color blind when it came to dating!

When I look at all the responses, I am not at all surprised all the information and expertise you all have and also, the myriad of directions that this topic can proceed if anybody wants.

Like I said, Light theory for biology, physics, astronomy, theoretical physics, religion, psychology, animal behavior, comparative religion just goes on and on and on!

Great stuff.

I hope I have not offended anyone and respected all your facts.

available 24hrs...but not in a row!


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 3, 2013)

well, its only greens and blues...and i have seen lots of doctors trying to correct it, but none no how..so i live it....
speaking of color..heres a color story.
I am single, thankfully and I entertain the opposite sex as much as i can make wine.
The other day a lady was over having wine when my cat came in to the room.
she asked, what is the cats name and i said blackie, she said, well its white, and i said, are you sure...LOL....


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 3, 2013)

you wore john travolta clothes....omg...you are a brave man to admit that.
lol....your original post on color was most amusing...thanks...


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## corinth (Nov 3, 2013)

*Mommy, why are grape leaves green?*

Actually, not that I think about it. If I did wear John Travolta's clothes, especially from Saturday Night Live, I should have never given them back!

They would be worth some bucks today!


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## Downwards (Nov 3, 2013)

I've read that red green color blindness existed in other primates before our species. Apparently for social animals who eat fruit, there is a benefit to having some color bind individuals. Regular sighted (think it was rhesus) monikers find most of the fruit for the troop when the fruit is ripe because of how it stands out from the foliage. But in leaner times the color blind monikers can find green fruits easier for the troop because they are used to finding fruit by its shape, not color. Evolutionary disadvantage for the individual but possibly an advantage for the whole troop. 

Moral of the story is it may be a good thing that we all "see" things differently.


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## Downwards (Nov 3, 2013)

Monkeys not monikers, haha.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 3, 2013)

corinth said:


> I spent some time reading on Dielectric materials and the transmission of energy and it still makes my head spin but is fascinating! If there is a particular website that would further educate me, I would be grateful!


I would try this one on for size: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/specol.html



corinth said:


> The Dielectric material does not seem(correct me if I am wrong and I probably am ) to apply to living plants as they utilize light rays does it but it does appear to explain how we see color in non living things such as a green chair. Again, correct me if I am wrong and I probably am.



No, it certainly applies to plants. "Dielectric" just means something that is not a metal. Examples of dielectrics include: cork, silicon, water, ribeye steak, wood, plastic, glass, monkeys, asphalt, granite, teeth, etc. Let me put it this way: The light I was describing above? It does not know whether your plant was alive or dead. The laws of physics are the same.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 3, 2013)

Downwards said:


> I've read that red green color blindness existed in other primates before our species. Apparently for social animals who eat fruit, there is a benefit to having some color bind individuals. Regular sighted (think it was rhesus) monikers find most of the fruit for the troop when the fruit is ripe because of how it stands out from the foliage. But in leaner times the color blind monikers can find green fruits easier for the troop because they are used to finding fruit by its shape, not color. Evolutionary disadvantage for the individual but possibly an advantage for the whole troop.
> 
> Moral of the story is it may be a good thing that we all "see" things differently.



Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 3, 2013)

You know the expression, "Each to his own taste"? There is, of course, an equivalent in many languages. Some of these, we have adopted into English.

In French, the expression is "Chacun à son goût," which means "Each to his own taste." This phrase is not uncommon to be used among English speakers.

In Latin, the most common expression (used in English) is "De gustibus non est disputandum," which is usually translated, "With tastes, there can be no dispute." Interestingly, the full expression is "De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum," which is translated "With tastes _*and colors*_ there can be no dispute."

Thus, James, no one can dispute that your shirt was green!


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## LeChat (Nov 4, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> been color blind my whole life...lol but thanks...first encounter was when i was about 5, my mom gave me a shirt for school and I told here i did not like green shirts, she....kinda shocked said it was blue....lol



Ahah don't worry, I suffer from a similar condition. When we went color shopping for painting our house , I had conversation like this with my wife:

DW: "Honey, which color would you prefer for the living room?" says my wife holding, to my knowledge, identical samples of gray.

LeChat: Thinking this is some kind of a joke I answer "Whelp, they look the same to me, either one would be fine."

DW: "How dare you mix sandstone gray with limestone gray!?" .....

It came to the point that I was convinced the paint shop just gave identical colours different name to give the impression that more choice was available.

I mean how many tones of white can there be?!


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## GreginND (Nov 4, 2013)

sour_grapes said:


> I would try this one on for size: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/specol.html
> 
> 
> 
> No, it certainly applies to plants. "Dielectric" just means something that is not a metal. Examples of dielectrics include: cork, silicon, water, ribeye steak, wood, plastic, glass, monkeys, asphalt, granite, teeth, etc. Let me put it this way: The light I was describing above? It does not know whether your plant was alive or dead. The laws of physics are the same.



Um, no, dielectric has a much more specific definition than that. It is an insulating material that can be polarized when placed in an electric field. I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that corks, ribeye steaks, etc. become polarized.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 4, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Um, no, dielectric has a much more specific definition than that. It is an insulating material that can be polarized when placed in an electric field. I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that corks, ribeye steaks, etc. become polarized.



The dielectric constant of cork is 1.5. Ribeye steaks have a dielectric constant of about 100 (at 100 MHz). (Of course, some of these substances, like the steaks, are not perfect insulators, but rather are merely poor conductors. However, that does not mean that they are not properly called "dielectrics.") All of these objects certainly reflect some electromagnetic radiation for the reason I stated above.

I cannot think of anything that _cannot_ be polarized. The materials with the smallest polarizability are noble gases. Even He gas can be slightly polarized, and so has a dielectric constant slightly greater than one. Is there anything (other than vacuum and good conductors) that should NOT be termed a dielectric?


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## corinth (Nov 4, 2013)

*mommy-daddy-what-makes-wine-grape-leaves-gree*

"Downwards"

I just wanted to add to the information on the monkeys and color.

In Darwin's book." origin of species"published in 1859, In chapter 19, in which he writes about something called "phyolgenetic Adaptation" and "instinct",It basically states that through evolution animals physical abilities and bodies change over a whole bunch of years such as fish that live deep in the ocean and have no eyes!

Do not ask me how I remember this since as I am not trying to impress anybody! I cannot tell you what I had for breakfast! Some things are just stored in long term memory

So ,possibly the monkeys evolved and the color they needed or did not need evolved with them?

("Inherit the wind" with spencer Tracey who plays Clarence Darrow and the famous Monkey trial--great movie!) 

Comparative Psychology or Animal Behavior is really a trip.

I did not know or intend this thread to become so sophisticated. Wow!


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## LoneStarLori (Nov 4, 2013)

I have been casually reading this thread with amazement of all the knowledge so I'm going to throw one out there for y'all and hopefully get an explanation. 

Now I am not nearly as apt at science as all of you on this thread, but I do know a thing or two about photography and what certain filters and light temperatures to do colors and contrast. But I can not understand this. I was taking photos for another thread yesterday and wanted to show how to shrink a PVC cap. Look at the picture below, the element on the stove is under a ceramic cook top. It is red/orange to the naked eye as is common with a ceramic top. But while using a digital camera It clearly came out magenta. Even when viewing it on the camera screen and looking at the element beside it, it was magenta on the screen and red to my eye. All other colors in the picture are spot on and there is no incandescent light shift. No filters on the camera. I'm stumped as to why just this one color did this. 
I'm sure there is a scientific explanation. Who's got it?


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## sour_grapes (Nov 4, 2013)

I believe I can shed _some_ light on this (pun intended.  ), but cannot explain all of it. Most digital cameras have a tendency to display bright light sources in the field of view as purple. (This is referred to as "purple flare.") I am not sure of the exact reason for this, so I cannot help with that.

What I can point out, however, is why you would get that effect from a ceramic cooktop. What not too many people know is that digital cameras can see in the infrared. That is, the silicon sensor absorbs light that is in the IR, even though our eyes cannot see it. To a digital camera, therefore, the cooktop looks like a VERY bright light source. It would be as if you were pointing the camera straight at a light bulb.


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## GreginND (Nov 4, 2013)

sour_grapes said:


> The dielectric constant of cork is 1.5. Ribeye steaks have a dielectric constant of about 100 (at 100 MHz). (Of course, some of these substances, like the steaks, are not perfect insulators, but rather are merely poor conductors. However, that does not mean that they are not properly called "dielectrics.") All of these objects certainly reflect some electromagnetic radiation for the reason I stated above.
> 
> I cannot think of anything that _cannot_ be polarized. The materials with the smallest polarizability are noble gases. Even He gas can be slightly polarized, and so has a dielectric constant slightly greater than one. Is there anything (other than vacuum and good conductors) that should NOT be termed a dielectric?



Well, ok - I think in the sense you are talking about it, dipoles can be induced in an electric field. But I'm not sure how that all relates to why leaves are green. It is the chlorophyl molecules in the plant that absorb wavelengths other than around 510 nm (the wavelength of green light). These are molecular processes, not necessarily bulk properties.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 4, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Well, ok - I think in the sense you are talking about it, dipoles can be induced in an electric field. But I'm not sure how that all relates to why leaves are green. It is the chlorophyl molecules in the plant that absorb wavelengths other than around 510 nm (the wavelength of green light). These are molecular processes, not necessarily bulk properties.



Yes, it was a tangent. In post #10, corinth asked about the process of reflection (from leaves). In post #11, I gave the answer as to why dielectrics reflect light.


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## LoneStarLori (Nov 4, 2013)

sour_grapes said:


> I believe I can shed _some_ light on this (pun intended.  ), but cannot explain all of it. Most digital cameras have a tendency to display bright light sources in the field of view as purple. (This is referred to as "purple flare.") I am not sure of the exact reason for this, so I cannot help with that.
> 
> What I can point out, however, is why you would get that effect from a ceramic cooktop. What not too many people know is that digital cameras can see in the infrared. That is, the silicon sensor absorbs light that is in the IR, even though our eyes cannot see it. To a digital camera, therefore, the cooktop looks like a VERY bright light source. It would be as if you were pointing the camera straight at a light bulb.




The light is actually not that bright. Not anywhere near a light bulb or something that would make you squint. But I think you are on track. The IR must be the answer. I did not know digital could see IR spectrum. Thats interesting. 

It was weird to stand there and see it with my naked eye as red, then on the camera screen as fuchsia at the same time.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 4, 2013)

Lori, check out this youtube video, which shows someone using a camera to look at his TV remote control. (Remote controls use an IR transmitter.)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwbayVahocA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwbayVahocA[/ame]






In the youtube video, the color of the IR source looks purple. I have no idea if that is a coincidence or not.


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## LoneStarLori (Nov 5, 2013)

HA! You're right! that works. I tried a remote control and couldn't see anything, until I looked at it through the camera. Shore-nuff, it was flashing purple. I looked up the specs on my stove and the elements are listed as;
Cooktop Element Style: Radiant
Cooktop Surface Color: Black
Cooktop Surface Material: Ceramic Glass

Now I have no idea where the infrared come into play there, but it must be the radiant heat. (whatever that is)


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## sour_grapes (Nov 5, 2013)

LoneStarLori said:


> HA! You're right! that works. I tried a remote control and couldn't see anything, until I looked at it through the camera. Shore-nuff, it was flashing purple. I looked up the specs on my stove and the elements are listed as;
> Cooktop Element Style: Radiant
> Cooktop Surface Color: Black
> Cooktop Surface Material: Ceramic Glass
> ...




Oh, yeah, "radiant heat" is basically the definition of infrared. Let me explain. In your first post, you said you were familiar with color temperatures. This term describes the output from any glowing object. (We call such an object a "blackbody," but no matter.) Think about an incandescent lightbulb on a dimmer switch. With the dimmer all the way up, the bulb glows white; as you turn the dimmer down, the bulb is cooler, and it glows more yellow. (The "color temperature" of the light is lower.)

Well, if you continue this process (turning down the power and thus lowering the temperature), the object will turn from yellow to red. (Think of a toaster element.) Eventually, it will not be visible at all, but you can still feel the heat on your face or hand. This is infrared radiation. Your cooktop is giving it off in spades. You cannot see it, but your camera can.


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## LoneStarLori (Nov 5, 2013)

So it's the "radiant" heat. Thank you Paul! This is an explanation I can understand and wrap my head around. It makes sense. Now I can sleep tonight. (except now worrying about radiation burn to my eyes when I cook. ) lol


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