# Chardonnay frozen crushed grapes



## geek (Mar 4, 2015)

Decided to start a new thread.
Finally pressed the 3 buckets, around 12 gallons of juice.
Added Opti white.

*SG= ~1.108
PH= ~3.5x
TA= ~.4x
*
TA is not very accurate. Measured with PH55 meter, used 15ml of juice in a glass container, then slowly added NaOH .2N solution, 1ml at a time but at 5ml overshot a bit and PH was showing high in the 8.x

So assume the TA may be around .4x

If the math is correct, this TA may be a little low but I don't have tartaric acid.....so I pitched D47.

What do you guys think? @ibglowin
.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 4, 2015)

Definitely needs a little acid, according to the numbers. 

Congrats on your first press!


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## geek (Mar 4, 2015)

Wonder if ok to add tartaric acid tomorrow evening (fermentation already started) when I can get it?
The moral is to adjust prior to fermentation but this juice could not wait longer.....already turning a bit brown.


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## ibglowin (Mar 4, 2015)

I guess I would have run a 2nd TA test and not overshot it. I would have also had Tartaric acid on hand before pitching the yeast. pH seems high and TA seems low. Always best to adjust before hand but you can adjust afterwards as a last recourse.

Use the Morewine Guide to White Wine Manual.


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## geek (Mar 4, 2015)

Pics of the buckets...


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## geek (Mar 4, 2015)

Mike, would you do add tartaric within 24 hours or let it rip to finish fermentation and then add? I assume I can try another TA test in the morning (around 10 hours after pitching yeast) and then add a bit of tartaric by late afternoon?

I will do mlf on it too.


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## geek (Mar 4, 2015)

Retested TA and use 4ml of .2 solution plus a couple drops.

So it seems to be define tell in the .4x

The question now is how many grams of tartaric ballpark per 6gal?


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## seth8530 (Mar 5, 2015)

Well, that depends on what you are after. There are some recommended ranges for wine styles, but in the end it will come down to taste. The method I would follow would be to take a sample and add tartaric to it until it taste like that it would be good that way dry.. And then I would scale up to the full sized batch. Perhaps undershoot what you think it will need just to be safe.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 5, 2015)

According to MoreWine: "3.8g per gallon adjusts acidity by +.1%. As a note: some tartaric acid will drop out of suspension as potassium bitartrate if you are doing any cold stabilization. You might want to re-test total acidity after cold stabilization."

Many people would suggest adding half as much as you calculate is needed. Then retest.


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

I need to check the appropriate ph range recommend for whites, I think I will be looking for PH ~3.3


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## seth8530 (Mar 5, 2015)

You don't really adjust to PH, you adjust to TA which is more closely linked to taste ( and then only to your taste using established ranges as guidelines). Then you adjust your sulfite additions to your PH.


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## ibglowin (Mar 5, 2015)

Once you have fermentation going CO2 is being produced which will skew your numbers. Unless you have little to no activity I would be inclined to just wait it out.



geek said:


> Mike, would you do add tartaric within 24 hours or let it rip to finish fermentation and then add? I assume I can try another TA test in the morning (around 10 hours after pitching yeast) and then add a bit of tartaric by late afternoon?
> 
> I will do mlf on it too.


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## ibglowin (Mar 5, 2015)

Ideally it's a balancing act between the two but sometimes the must just doesn't want to cooperate on both sides so I add acid trying to dial the TA in while watching the pH. If you reach the upper level of TA you have to decide using your taste buds as to can you possible add more or not. Whites having lower pH's than reds for the most part can take a bit more acid in fact I like my whites crisp and that means a bit more acid than normal. Reds not so crisp.



seth8530 said:


> You don't really adjust to PH, you adjust to TA which is more closely linked to taste ( and then only to your taste using established ranges as guidelines). Then you adjust your sulfite additions to your PH.


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

This morning there was no activity at all, hoping it won't kick in by this afternoon so I can add some tartaric.
I won't go crazy, I will add even if the numbers are not perfect, I think my goal would be to add TA to raise it in the .7 or so and lower the PH to the 3.3x or so.

We'll see.....


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## Treeman (Mar 5, 2015)

Did you have solids that did not dissolve when you thawed the buckets? Did you only add pressed juice to your barrel?


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

Only pressed juice.


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

Hoping for the best...

Added like 4tsp tartaric and brought PH to 3.32
Will check TA later tonight.

Lots of sediment making the juice brown...

No yeast activity yet...seems like D47 starts low, the juice temp around 65F

Again...hoping for the best...


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## seth8530 (Mar 5, 2015)

What was your reasoning behind 4 tsp?


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## ibglowin (Mar 5, 2015)

You do realize that if your starting SG is correct t 1.108 and you ferment to dry you will wen up with a Chardonnay at ~ 15.2% ABV which is off the charts (high).


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

Yeah, thought about it, too late for acidulated water??

Yeast has no signs of activity at all yet.


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## Treeman (Mar 5, 2015)

I would add 1.9 gallons (7.2 L) of water without acid to get your brix and TA adjusted.

So these are the numbers that I used to make this estimate.

12 gal x3.785L/gal= 45.4 L juice

Added 4tsp (~20g ) tartaric acid so 20g/45.4L =0.44 g/L so TA is now ~0.84 g/L

I like to use brix to calc sugar dilutions. 1.108 =25.5 brix to dilute to 22 brix need to add 7.2 L of water. If you just add water, then your TA would drop to 0.73.


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## ibglowin (Mar 5, 2015)

Now is the time to add it. Add 1/2 to a bucket, stir well, check SG. Add the other half as needed to bring it down to 13-13.5% ABV.


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

Thank you guys..!!
Rushing out to buy 2gal of spring water....
What you think about the color??


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## Treeman (Mar 5, 2015)

Color is fine. Once you get it adjusted probably want to get it under airlock so the color doesn't continue to brown. it will look much worse once the yeast get going and then should clear up once the yeast drop at the end of fermentation.

It seems like you have enough to do a barrel fermentation on half and do the remainder in glass carboys.


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

Added less than a gallon to both batches, SG is now around 1.098.
If the final SG comes to .998, the final ABV would be in the 13.x% based on my math.

Correct? If so I think I am leaving it as is.....since I don't know what the final SG will be, is 1.098 a good starting point?

I also wonder if I should split another D47 packet for the 2 containers, they're now over 6gal, and yet no signs of yeast activity....hmmm

*EDIT*: based on TA measurement just done, used ~5.4ml of nao .2 solution, assume this was close I then added 1tsp of tartaric to each container and the PH is now 3.28 (it had risen a bit due to water addition).

Leaving alone.....just waiting or fermentation to show some signs so I can place into my new barrel, waiting full of water waiting....

.


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## Treeman (Mar 5, 2015)

What is your Temp? Did you use goferm when rehydrating? 

Might want to start another batch of yeast as a starter. after rehydrating add equal volume of juice, then 30 min later add yeast to 1-2 L of juice at 60-70 F. 24 hrs later split the 2L between your 2 fermentors. Chances are by the time you finish making the starter, your other yeast will have kicked in, but if they don't you have a backup with the starter.


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## geek (Mar 5, 2015)

I pitched directly, didn't hydrate this time.

The juice temp is ~62F in the bigger container and about 66F in the other.
So put brew belt on one and placed the other close to pellet stove.


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## geek (Mar 6, 2015)

Last night, used another packet of D47 and rehydrated, then pitched half and hal to the 2 buckets.

This morning fermentation finally shows that it took off.

Stirred and then transferred some into 23l new barrel and top it almost to the top (hoping D47 is not a big foam creator).

Thanks all for the assistance.

Will report how it goes in a day or two.


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## geek (Mar 13, 2015)

I had divided the batch in two.
First one racked yesterday. After a day I racked again into 6gal Italian carboy..,perfect match for about 6.5gal. SG came down to ~0.994
Added MLB.

2nd batch in 23l barrel around 1.006 and still going slowly and nicely.
I kept room temp in the 50s and 60s for a longer ferment. Will add MLB to this other batch this weekend.

BTW-this is my first barrel and had some wine foam spill....I will be putting an Amarone after and assume it is fine to give it a nice wash in/out to make it look nicer and cleaner outside.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 13, 2015)

geek said:


> BTW-this is my first barrel and had some wine foam spill....I will be putting an Amarone after and assume it is fine to give it a nice wash in/out to make it look nicer and cleaner outside.



A spritz of KMeta will take care of those stains on the outside.

In between batches, I just rinse a couple times with very hot water. Every so often, I'll throw some Kmeta in there with a solid bung for an hour.


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2015)

You are doing great, Varis. The only thing I would advise is to clean off the area around the bung hole on a regular basis with a towel dampened with hot water and then wipe some K-meta solution on the surface. I know that it is sacrilegious in come circles to have the skins in the barrel but do your own thing. You may get feedback from a number of _self-styled_ wine making "experts" telling you are doing it all wrong. Do it your way. There is no international standard regarding what a Chardonnay must taste like. If you like it, it is good wine.


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## geek (Mar 13, 2015)

I want to clarify that the batch in the barrel is only pressed juice...all the skins were discarded when I pressed.


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## Rocky (Mar 14, 2015)

geek said:


> I want to clarify that the batch in the barrel is only pressed juice...all the skins were discarded when I pressed.


 
I thought I saw skins in the pictures of the barrels. Sorry. 

When we made our wine at home long ago we mixed and co-fermented Zinfandel and Muscat, so the skins of both grapes went into the wine. It resulted in a really nice wine. When I lived in New York, I made a wine from Delaware (white) grapes and let the wine ferment on the skins. It was also a good wine and although I made it in the mid-1990's I still have three bottles of it in my cellar. I only use it for cooking at this point.


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## Buonissimo (Mar 14, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> Definitely needs a little acid, according to the numbers.
> 
> Congrats on your first press!



Boatboy,

Where can i find the numbers pH TA for various wines. I know it comes down to taste ultimately. But to have some rough guidelines for the numbers would be helpful.

thank you very much!


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## geek (Mar 14, 2015)

No problem Rocky, thanks for always chiming in.


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## seth8530 (Mar 14, 2015)

I have not had much luck on finding an uber chart for all wine types, but I generally have good luck searching out the desired TA and PH range by searching on a grape by grape or wine style by style basis... But once again, guidelines....


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## geek (Mar 14, 2015)

Seth, how is that Chard batch you were recently making?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 14, 2015)

Buonissimo said:


> Boatboy,
> 
> Where can i find the numbers pH TA for various wines. I know it comes down to taste ultimately. But to have some rough guidelines for the numbers would be helpful.
> 
> thank you very much!



I'm usually trying to hit pH of 3.45-3.6 on my reds and 3.2-3.4 on whites. Reds I target TA of .65 or so. You may find more info in Morewinemaking's guide to red or white wine making though.

As Seth mentioned, that will vary based on type of grape and, of course, your own taste.


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## seth8530 (Mar 14, 2015)

geek said:


> Seth, how is that Chard batch you were recently making?



It is doing pretty well, I think I accidentally bumped the abv up too high by measuring the SG before all the sugars were fully dissolved since it still taste kind of hot. I might try blending with a lower alcohol wine or perhaps see if a little bit of acidulated water will help it.

But, to be honest, I did not use the highest quality juice for the wine, so I am not sure if it ever will be great. That being said, I think it still has the potential to be a good wine in its own regard. If I remember correctly, it is coming up on 18 months old right now.


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## geek (Mar 16, 2015)

2nd batch racked from barrel into glass carboy, SG around 0.998 and it was still fizzing, I'm sure it would end up around 0.994 like the other batch.

Pitched MLB.

Had to use a hose and clean barrel really well, lots of goo stuff in the walls.

Anyhow, both batches well going under MLF.


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## geek (Mar 21, 2015)

Both batches bubbling away with MLF.


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## geek (Apr 19, 2015)

Did Mlf test Friday and was hoping for better results but looks like it's half way...started MLF just over a month ago with Wyeast 4007 but the temps in the basement have been cool in the 60s and even 50s.


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## syncnite (Apr 20, 2015)

MLF at those temps will proceed slowly. Ideal temp is around 70 degrees, more or less. Better to get it completed and then sulfited. However, I've heard of some commercial wineries taking several months at cool temps.


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## geek (May 13, 2015)

Just did another test yesterday and looks like not much different...


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## Boatboy24 (May 13, 2015)

What's your temp?


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## geek (May 13, 2015)

Temps in the basement were around 60s, then I've been using a brew belt on/off to avoid getting it too hot.
Stirred like once a week or so.

First MLF test was April 17 and now this 2nd test May 12.

Pitched Wyest 4007 March 13. This culture worked really well for me the first time last year on a Cab/Merlot blend.

I adjusted the PH on these Chardonnay batches down to 3.2x (from 3.57) using tartaric acid.

I know I did everything by the book. Thinking about moving on and adding sulfite...


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## Boatboy24 (May 13, 2015)

What is the pH tolerance of the Wyeast? I think 3.2 is the low end for a lot of MLB's. 

I've seen mixed reviews on it.


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## heatherd (May 13, 2015)

You could try the Lalvin vp41 to see if it makes a difference.


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## geek (May 13, 2015)

I looked their site and no mention of the PH but only the temp.
Let me keep checking.

Trying to avoid getting VP41 at this stage because is getting close to 2 months since I pitched Wyeast 4007.


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## geek (May 13, 2015)

Batch 1 oak barrel fermented, PH=3.27
Batch 2, PH=3.23

Wine temp ~69F.


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## jsiddall (Jun 23, 2015)

I just came across this thread and thought I would add some missing info. Many sites publish a pH of 2.9 or greater. Ex:

http://www.morebeer.com/products/wyeast-4007-liquid-malolactic-bacteria-125ml.html

I have a batch that was innoculated at 18 C and pH 3.5 and it did nothing for the first month. I added some Opti-Malo Plus and gave it a stir and after another month it is working with TA down 0.09. I am hoping that it is only about half done as I would like the TA to drop a total of 0.2 or so.

Many reviews of this MLB indicate it is very slow, with the manufacturer specifying 1-3 months.


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## geek (Jun 23, 2015)

yeah, saw a few reviews as well.
I opted to call it a day and the 3 months mark I racked and added kmeta without testing MLF again (didn't care at this point as I didn't want the risk of spoilage).

I did a taste test and the wine is pretty good to be this young....time will tell.


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