# All of my oak barrel questions



## the_rayway

I'm getting a Vadai 20L oak barrel for Christmas, and I did post a thread a little while back wondering about fermenting a mead in it to break it in. (thanks for the replies on that one!)

Now I have more questions, that I'm hoping some of the experienced barrel owners can answer for me (or direct me to the correct threads).

1) If I'm barrel fermenting a white, can it be any white? Or does it have to be a traditionally-oaked one? i.e. could I do a Riesling or a Gewurztraminer?

2) Can I put both kit and un-MLF'd fresh grape wines in it? As I understand it, as soon as there has been MLF bacteria in the barrel, it's ruined for kit wines.(?)

3) I've got a fresh grape Amarone-style, Malbec & Merlot. Should I cycle them through in that order? 

4) 4/6/8 week cycle (as in, tasting at that point in time and going from there), or have things changed to more of a 6/8/12 week cycle?

5) If I add the kmeta dose when putting them in there (1/4 tsp I believe it is for a 5g batch), can I just re-dose at 3 months automatically? I don't have a testing kit as of yet, but still want to be safe.

These are the questions I've been wondering about as Christmas comes nearer and I get more and more worried that I'll totally screw up my barrel! I would love to hear any opinions/input/suggestions.

Thanks,
Raelene


----------



## Pumpkinman

Raelene!!!!!!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!

I can answer a few of the questions, there are far more experienced barrel owners than me on a few of these questions:

1) If I'm barrel fermenting a white, can it be any white? Or does it have to be a traditionally-oaked one? i.e. could I do a Riesling or a Gewurztraminer?

I don't barrel ferment because I try to avoid all of the sediment getting into the barrel, I usually put wine that has been aged for 6 months or so after I've racked the wine a few times, naturally cleared. You can put any white that you feel will benefit from oak through the barrel, personally, I don't really care for oak in my whites

2) Can I put both kit and un-MLF'd fresh grape wines in it? As I understand it, as soon as there has been MLF bacteria in the barrel, it's ruined for kit wines.(?)
Once you put a MLF wine in the barrel, you should't rotate any kit wines into the barrel, the MLB will be resident in the barrel

3) I've got a fresh grape Amarone-style, Malbec & Merlot. Should I cycle them through in that order? 
Amarone and Malbec can handle a decent amount of time in the barrel, I would put the Merlot in last 

4) 4/6/8 week cycle (as in, tasting at that point in time and going from there), or have things changed to more of a 6/8/12 week cycle?
I went straight to 5 months in my 30 Lt barrel with my Brunello, it was fine, not over oaked, I taste the wine every few weeks to determine if it has reached the level of oak that I want to achieve.

5) If I add the kmeta dose when putting them in there (1/4 tsp I believe it is for a 5g batch), can I just re-dose at 3 months automatically? I don't have a testing kit as of yet, but still want to be safe.
SO2 will be depleted much faster in a barrel due to the oxygen that traverses through the barrel wall, you really need to keep up on this, I cannot recommend a test kit enough!


----------



## ibglowin

the_rayway said:


> 1) If I'm barrel fermenting a white, can it be any white? Or does it have to be a traditionally-oaked one? i.e. could I do a Riesling or a Gewurztraminer?



You can put any white you want to, its your barrel and your wine. On the other hand there is probably a good reason you don't see any oaked Rieslings or Gewurzt's. They just didn't turn out very good in the end



the_rayway said:


> 2) Can I put both kit and un-MLF'd fresh grape wines in it? As I understand it, as soon as there has been MLF bacteria in the barrel, it's ruined for kit wines.(?)



I would run as many kits as you can through and then if you have MLF'ed wines start on them. I would not go back and forth, especially since you have no way of accurately testing SO2. If you could accurately test for SO2 you could go back and forth but you will forever have to watch the levels of any kit wine that goes in that barrel once it has had MLB introduced.



the_rayway said:


> 3) I've got a fresh grape Amarone-style, Malbec & Merlot. Should I cycle them through in that order?



Amarone is not normally a heavily oaked wine. I would run the Malbec, Merlot first, then the Amarone so you have dialed down the oak a bit. You can always run a wine back through the barrel if after time the oak level has dropped back.



the_rayway said:


> 4) 4/6/8 week cycle (as in, tasting at that point in time and going from there), or have things changed to more of a 6/8/12 week cycle?



I like a 4-8-16-32 schedule these days. I have 4 (23L) Vadai's and this has worked well for me. A 20L might require the 4-6-8 schedule since you have an even higher wood to wine ratio than a 23L Barrel.



the_rayway said:


> 5) If I add the kmeta dose when putting them in there (1/4 tsp I believe it is for a 5g batch), can I just re-dose at 3 months automatically? I don't have a testing kit as of yet, but still want to be safe.



If you want to be safe your going to have to spend some money on an A/O Tester or a Vinemtrica. Your SO2 levels will drop to 3ppm in as little as 2 months time in a Barrel. (I know from testing my own wines with an A/O tester. Its going to be very hard to know how much SO2 to add without one. This is also the danger of running kits through after MLF'd wines. The SO2 levels will drop so fast that one week you could be protected, the next week the MLB could be tolerant of that level of SO2 and take off. Its just risky without knowing your levels

Hope this helps!



the_rayway said:


> These are the questions I've been wondering about as Christmas comes nearer and I get more and more worried that I'll totally screw up my barrel! I would love to hear any opinions/input/suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> Raelene


----------



## LoveTheWine

I've only had my barrel for just over a year so probably won't be too much help.
My barrel is a 20L American oak.

Just looked over my records, first wine in only oaked 3 weeks and this was very well oaked.
So for mine the schedule was probably 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 12 weeks etc..
*Keep in mind this is American oak, not hungarian.*

I strongly suggest to keep it full constantly after this. I tried sulfur candles, ended up in my lungs and drips got in the barrel, which are almost impossible to scrape off later. Keeping it full of sulfite solution is a waste of good oak too.

Also we are using a 4L wine bag for the reserve top off wine this year (fresh grape) and this is working way better trying to pour out of small glass bottles every 3 weeks. There is less waste this way.

Because the first few in aren't there very long you shouldn't have any spoilage problems due to lack of So2. I just gave mine a 1/4 tsp as they came out. A test kit is probably the way to go though.


----------



## the_rayway

Thanks Guys! This is exactly what I was hoping for  Ahhhhh! So excited!!!

Perhaps I might put a young Cabernet in there to start instead of a white ferment. Cabs can soak up a heck of a lot of oak, so it shouldn't be terrifying as a first to go in.

I was concerned about popping in my fresh juice wines - which are not MLF'd. And then putting kits in afterwards. I do mostly kits right now, so don't want to screw it up for them!

I'll really have to stay on top of the so2 additions until I can get myself a test kit. If I go with 1/4 tsp every two months (once I can get to that kind of time in there), I should probably be safe. If I over-so2 it, I can give it a really good stir to drive some of it off, right?

Also, does anyone wax/varnish or otherwise finish the outside of their barrels? I've heard this can reduce the 'angel's share' by a fair bit.


----------



## Boatboy24

Congrats and welcome to barrel world! It will make a huge difference in your wines. I'm currently using Accuvin test strips to keep track of my SO2. They are far from perfect, but at least give me a ballpark idea of my sulphite levels. You will need a way to test pH as well, as that impacts how much sulphite you actually need. Aside from that, you have some very good advice above. I'd stay away from any kind of varnish or sealer. It may limit the angels share, but that evaporation is one of the things that makes barrel aging so effective. And I have no idea what sort of impact the chemicals might have on your wine!


----------



## ibglowin

Heavens no! The reason a barrel takes your wine to a whole other level is the fact that it is a controlled "micro oxidation" machine of sorts. The fact that it oxidizes your wine slowly over time while allowing controlled evaporation is what makes this "container" so special. The angels get their share and you get some awesome wine in exchange. 



the_rayway said:


> Also, does anyone wax/varnish or otherwise finish the outside of their barrels? I've heard this can reduce the 'angel's share' by a fair bit.


----------



## ldmack3

I thought the reason not to go back and forth between kits and juice had to do with the sorbate in the kits. I only back sweeten whites and use sorbate in them but they never go in the barrel. All my reds, except port, are completely dry so I quit using sorbate.

Still a concern?


----------



## ibglowin

Yes if you are making fresh grape wine and do MLF on it and go back and forth between kits and fresh grapes.


----------



## the_rayway

You guys are awesome. This is all so helpful!

Just waiting on the notification of my barrel being shipped...


----------



## ldmack3

Whew!

Thanks. Doing my first MLF. Need to designate one of my barrels to juice only.


----------



## LoveTheWine

Do you know who the barrel is being purchased through? Straight from Vadai or somewhere else?
It is about 100$ shipping to get them to ship to me.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

Now you need 2 barrels, one for kits and one for MLF Wish I had a barrel, first thing I would make a cider and run it through MLF to get it good and innoculated. Brother Adam of beekeeping fame used barrels that had been fermenting wine first, so then some big rich meads would follow, probably a cyser and then a traditional. I am only dreaming, wife says I have house to full right now, she wants me to go on one of those hoarding shows, but I really do need all that stuff! WVMJ


----------



## ldmack3

I bought mine direct from Vadai but I understand shipping is less if you go through MoreWine.

http://morewinemaking.com/category/wine-barrel-oak-1.html


----------



## the_rayway

Aaron - they have it shipped from a warehouse, that's all I know. They must get bulk orders from Vadai. The only reason I'm not paying as much for the shipping as for the barrel is because I'm having it shipped to a parcel service in North Dakota, about 1.5 hours away from me (right at the border). Then a friend will pick it up on her monthly trip to the US. $14 for shipping instead of $120.

WVMJ - I'm already looking and planning my next two barrels! Lol, a small 1 or 2 Litre for vanilla and ports; and another 20L for MLF'd wines once I get to that stage. 

I need to start planning a wine room...


----------



## Fabiola

the_rayway said:


> You guys are awesome. This is all so helpful!
> 
> Just waiting on the notification of my barrel being shipped...



That's nice and exciting, I have been making wine for 2 years and I am tempted to start into barrels too...


----------



## MrKevin

I just order my second barrel (1st hungarian barrel) thru morewine and the shipping to Alaska was $56. It will be dropped shipped from Vidai by FedEx.


----------



## LoveTheWine

> Aaron - they have it shipped from a warehouse, that's all I know. They must get bulk orders from Vadai. The only reason I'm not paying as much for the shipping as for the barrel is because I'm having it shipped to a parcel service in North Dakota, about 1.5 hours away from me (right at the border). Then a friend will pick it up on her monthly trip to the US. $14 for shipping instead of $120.



This is a great deal

Thanks for the tip... I wonder if this is true even being shipped to Canada though?


> I bought mine direct from Vadai but I understand shipping is less if you go through MoreWine.
> 
> http://morewinemaking.com/category/wine-barrel-oak-1.html


----------



## LoveTheWine

There is also this company out of Ontario that imports Hungarian barrels.
http://www.barrelimports.com/Home.html

I tried to get prices off them however and they seemed reluctant to give any VIA email. Seemed they preferred to do bulk deals.


----------



## the_rayway

Yeah, I checked them out and the website made me a bit leery.

It seems the biggest part of the barrel shipping price is the brokerage fees, which FedEx charges.


----------



## LoveTheWine

the_rayway said:


> Yeah, I checked them out and the website made me a bit leery.
> 
> It seems the biggest part of the barrel shipping price is the brokerage fees, which FedEx charges.



They are the real deal. Bosagrape in Vancouver stocks their barrels and barrel alternatives but I thought maybe could get a better deal cutting out the middle middle man.
The American mailbox option or a trip down the coast next yr sound like the option for me.


----------



## Snafflebit

Oaking white wine is done selectively, mainly because the oak flavor can overpower a white wine. Of course you can experiment. Chardonnay can stand up to oaking and MLF because it is a bold grape, but even this is seeing less or no oak in fashion now. There are some toasted oak aged Sauv Blanc in CA called Fume Blanc and white Bordeaux is barrel aged. I have also tasted oaked Viognier and I don't care for the oak taste.


----------



## Runningwolf

My Chardonnay and Viognier goes in barrels.


----------



## sdelli

ldmack3 said:


> I thought the reason not to go back and forth between kits and juice had to do with the sorbate in the kits. I only back sweeten whites and use sorbate in them but they never go in the barrel. All my reds, except port, are completely dry so I quit using sorbate. Still a concern?



Yes... You would obviously never introduce a wine with sorbate in it to a barrel with mlf in it already... But I have also read that it is not recommended to put any kit through mlf.... The juice in kits is already balanced and will be thrown off if gone through mlf...or put in a barrel with mlf in it... So just like said in this thread. Run your kits through the barrel first, then go to your juices. Never going back. Or have more then one barrel!


----------



## thinman56

Searched for this question and didn't see it - Can I use the same barrel for whites and reds? Assuming no sorbate or MLF, just kit wines. I never use the sorbate, don't like the taste. Getting ready to put a Pinot Noir in my first barrel, soaking it and sealing it up per the instructions found here. I'd like to do a Savignon Blanc next, and then a Cab. Just happens to be the order of aging in carboys at the moment...


----------



## ibglowin

LOL, not unless you like a pink Sauv Blanc. Whites only if no reds have ever been through it. once you put a red through it, no more whites.


----------



## thinman56

Yea, I figured.....


----------



## levibjork

The rayway, lovethewine-
I just ordered and received a barrel from barrel imports. $200 plus $25 shipping for a 23 liter barrel. It worked well, they were very professional. It was just weird because they don't have an online ordering system--I emailed an order, got an invoice, then had to call with my credit card number. It all worked out great, though. I had it within a week.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


----------



## LoveTheWine

levibjork said:


> The rayway, lovethewine-
> I just ordered and received a barrel from barrel imports. $200 plus $25 shipping for a 23 liter barrel. It worked well, they were very professional. It was just weird because they don't have an online ordering system--I emailed an order, got an invoice, then had to call with my credit card number. It all worked out great, though. I had it within a week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making




Nice work and thanks for letting us know how it turned out!
Where abouts do you live to get $25 shipping?
Just wondering 'cause I'm about as far west as you can get.


----------



## levibjork

I live in Edmonton. I was surprised how low the shipping was, frankly. I don't know if they just have a flat shipping charge or if they scale it by distance.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


----------



## thinman56

Runningwolf - how long do you leave your whites in the barrel? I might run my Savignon Blanc through it first just for a hint of the oakiness.


----------

