# The "Leaky Cauldron" - Cellar Craft Showcase Old Vine Zinfandel



## ithink2020 (Jun 29, 2020)

I'm naming this batch the Leaky Cauldron, as the kit had leaked a little during shipment.

This is my first premium kit. I was very lucky to receive the kit from my in-laws as a father's day gift. I was hoping to start this after I finished a couple of kits I have lined up. But then I noticed a stain on the side of the box. I opened the kit to find the bag had leaked some out from under the yellow cap. The vendor is replacing and told me to keep or dispose of this kit. After referring to the knowledgable minds here, I've decided to start this one and see what happens. Tonight...

The juice looks and smells *AMAZING*!!!

Everything went pretty smoothly. I'm still a little rusty, but I don't think I made any major mistakes. I took my time, read the instructions careful, and made sure everything was cleaned and sanitized. They only "issue" I have is the kit states the SG should be between 1.080 and 1.100. Mine is at 1.075ish, so about 10.5% abv in the finished wine. I'm thinking this might be due to the lost juice. I didn't think much was lost, but I have no idea.

I do remember reading grape packs can raise the final alcohol by about 3%. So I'm hoping the abv will be more like 12-13% when finished. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Oh, and I'm a little concerned about the headspace... This is a 7.9-gallon primary (see pics).

I followed the instructions and did my best. Now we wait and see!


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## cmason1957 (Jun 29, 2020)

You probably want a bigger fermenter, like a 10 gallon bucket. You might get by, but it's marginal. Stir, stir, stir and check your sg again before pitching the yeast. I would probably add some extra sugar, I like 1.100, but 1.095 is good also.


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## ithink2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

@cmason1957 I didn't want to add anything more to the fermentor since I'm already concerned about headspace. Before I put the grape pack in, I used a drill whip and stirred it for about 3-4 minutes. After adding the grape pack, I manually stirred for a few more minutes. Tested and stirred some more. Tested and stirred some more... I didn't see any change to the SG after all the stirring.

This morning the grape pack was still at the bottom. I stirred a bit more but the reading was a tad lower than last night. It appeared to be at 1.072 or 1.073. There are some signs of fermentation starting. I'm hoping there will be some hidden sugars in those grapes that will ferment out and raise the alcohol level.

For the next kit, I may add water a little at a time, then stir and check until I get into the SG range. Then again, next time I hope I don't get a leaky kit!


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

You didn’t add any water, right? Leaking can’t change the density. Only adding a liquid with a different density (like water) or dissolving something in it (like sugar) can change the density. If you want it to turn out as the manufacturer intended, follow the instructions and don’t add sugar. I sometimes add sugar to my cheap kits that come with concentrated juice to bring the SG up to the specified range, but I wouldn’t with a premium kit.
As for headspace in the Primary, there really is no such thing. Yeast needs oxygen at this point, which is why you start in an open container with no air lock for primary fermentation. Once you rack to your secondary (glass carboy), that’s when headspace starts to become an issue. But even during secondary fermentation, unless you have a huge headspace, it should still be producing enough CO2 to blanket the wine and protect it (like the wax from Grandma’s jam), as evidenced by the bubbles in the air lock. Once the fermentation is complete, and the wine is clearing, *that’s* when you need to be careful with the headspace!


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

@cmason1957 was actually suggesting you probably need a* bigger *primary. You may be in danger of the yeast cap overflowing the primary. Make sure it’s somewhere where that won’t ruin a carpet or put it in some kind of tray to catch anything that might spill over.


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

Also (this is maybe asking an obvious question, like “are you sure you turned your computer on?” LOL), but have you checked your hydrometer in water to make sure the paper scale inside hasn’t slipped? I have a “precision” hydrometer with a slipped scale that reads 0.004 too low. It’s very precise, just not accurate!


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## sour_grapes (Jun 30, 2020)

In my experience, a 6-gallon kit with skins fits easily in a 7.9 gallon fermenting bucket. I don't think your cap will get much "worse" than it is.

In my experience, the skins add about 0.015 to the SG when they dissolve fully. I was surprised that your SG is so low; however, this would make sense if you followed directions to "add water to make 6 gallons" when you were starting with a little less juice than you were supposed to. Can you clarify?


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

I agree with @sour_grapes. I’m just paranoid ever since I had my only attempt at Skeeter Pee “boil over” my primary when I stirred it. I’m dang lucky it wasn’t in a carboy, or I would have a yellow stain on my ceiling!


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

ithink2020 said:


> For the next kit, I may add water a little at a time, then stir and check until I get into the SG range.


I just read your post again and noticed you said next time you would “add water a little at a time.” Does that mean you *did *add water to this one? That would definitely explain a drop in SG, depending on how much you added. I thought premium kits required no extra water. If you did add water, how much did you add?


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## sour_grapes (Jun 30, 2020)

KCCam said:


> I thought premium kits required no extra water. If you did add water, how much did you add?



Not quite. I cannot tell if this is a new-format kit or an old-format kit. However, under the old format, kits like this generally included 16 L of concentrate, and you need to add 7 liters of water. New-format WineXpert kits are 14L / 9L.


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## ithink2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

KCCam said:


> You didn’t add any water, right?



Yes, the kit instructions have you add water to the 6-gallon mark.



KCCam said:


> have you checked your hydrometer in water



Yes, I tested it recently when I had a batch stall out on me.



sour_grapes said:


> In my experience, a 6-gallon kit with skins fits easily in a 7.9-gallon fermenting bucket.



Thanks! I'm glad to hear this.



sour_grapes said:


> In my experience, the skins add about 0.015 to the SG when they dissolve fully. I was surprised that your SG is so low; however, this would make sense if you followed directions to "add water to make 6 gallons" when you were starting with a little less juice than you were supposed to. Can you clarify?



From the looks of the inside of the wine kit box, it didn't seem that I had lost much juice. I figure 2-3 tablespoons worth. However, I guess I lost more enough to really lower the SG.

Update: I emailed VineCo and was told that my SG was actually a good starting point and the wine should be fine. They said that you should actually wait 5-6 hours before you take a reading (which was not stated in the instructions...). They also stated it might read low if I didn't stir long and vigorously enough. However, if I had stirred any more vigorously the juice would be flying out of the primary!


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

@sour_grapes - Ahhh. Sorry ‘bout that. Thanks for the correction.
@ithink2020 - Glad things are looking good.


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## Swedeman (Jun 30, 2020)

Maybe I missed it, but do you have any idea on how much juice you lost?


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

ithink2020 said:


> However, I guess I lost more enough to really lower the SG.


Not necessarily. VineCo says it’s normal. Instructions can often be from a generic template (I often see “if your kit contains a flavour pack, add it now” for example.) It would take 1.25 cups to change the SG 0.001.


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## ithink2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I cannot tell if this is a new-format kit or an old-format kit.



The box says it is an 18L kit. I believe it is 16L of juice concentrate with a 2L crushed grape pack. I can't find where I saw that, but that is what I think it is.



Swedeman said:


> Maybe I missed it, but do you have any idea on how much juice you lost?



I really don't know. I added photos of what the inside of the kit box looked like. The inside of the shipping box had no signs of leaked juice. So either it didn't leak enough to go outside the Kit box or it had leaked before it was shipped out. My best guess is 2-3 tablespoons.



KCCam said:


> Not necessarily. VineCo says it’s normal. Instructions can often be from a generic template (I often see “if your kit contains a flavour pack, add it now” for example.) It would take 1.25 cups to change the SG 0.001.



Very true. I've never made a kit using a Grape pack. I do feel better knowing the manufacture confirmed it was a good starting SG. If I go by what @sour_grapes mentioned above and add 0.015 to the 1.074 I got last night, that would be around 1.089 or an est. abv of 12-13% (depending on how dry it goes). Not a huge Zin, but better than the 9.9% I was initially thinking it would be!


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 30, 2020)

I think you're going to be just fine here.

1) Fermenter: I've done all my kits in a 7.9gal fermenter and even those where I used yeasts known for excessive foam, I was just fine with the space in there.

2) Leak: I've had a few kits like yours where it looked like some juice had escaped, but I couldn't find a clear spot where juice had breached the bag or lid. I'm not exactly sure of the process used to fill the bags but I've often wondered if sometimes a little doesn't get spilled before that bag gets capped. And if the bag's in the box when they fill it, there's your source of the 'leaked juice'. I have a hard time getting my head around a leak that would start, then stop without some kind of intervention.

FWIW, this was the first good kit I did after testing the process with two Uber-cheap kits from Amazon. I had an SG of 1.092, so I think you're right where you need to be. Enjoy the ride!


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## ithink2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> Fermenter: I've done all my kits in a 7.9gal fermenter and even those where I used yeasts known for excessive foam, I was just fine with the space in there.



This is reassuring, thank you!



Boatboy24 said:


> Leak: I've had a few kits like yours where it looked like some juice had escaped, but I couldn't find a clear spot where juice had breached the bag or lid.



It appears it did come from under the yellow cap, just not sure when. We were reviewing our front porch camera and the delivery guy was carrying the box up on her shoulder. Unfortunately where he "placed" the box was off camera. However, it sounded like he must have dropped the box from a shoulder height! I'm wondering if it just hit with such force that a little bit squirted out from under the cap.



Boatboy24 said:


> FWIW, this was the first good kit I did after testing the process with two Uber-cheap kits from Amazon. I had an SG of 1.092, so I think you're right where you need to be. Enjoy the ride!



Thank you! I'm really excited about this kit. I've seen a few people online rave about this kit, it's just going to be a long wait while it ages!


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## ithink2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

I just got done stirring the must and decided to check the SG. *Surprise*! It is at 1.080 right now!

I was reading another brand's kit instructions early. It appears they have you wait 48 hours (after pitching the yeast), to take your first SG reading. I've never heard of this before (maybe I'm just misreading their instructions...). However, I wonder if that is their way of allowing the sugars from the grapes time to break down into the must... Anyone else heard of waiting 48 hours (esp. after pitching yeast) to take an initial SG reading!?!?


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

I think there would be a very good chance the SG would drop more from fermentation than it would rise from the grape skins after 48 hrs. The Dragon Blood I did last year dropped 0.015 in the first 24 hours, and it had 12 lbs of berries, bananas, and raisins that would have been adding sugar as well. I think you’re just going to have to “guesstimate” it, or use some other method to determine ABV after it’s dry.


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## ithink2020 (Jun 30, 2020)

@KCCam Good point. I can see signs of fermentation happening, which means the yeast are already converting sugar. The instructions are written oddly and that may have lead me to read them incorrectly.

For the next time around. Would it be safe to leave the grape pack in with the must for 34 or 48 hours, prior to pitching the yeast? Giving the grapes time to break down / dilute out a bit and for the must to meld together?

Thoughts, everyone?


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## cmason1957 (Jun 30, 2020)

I often add the grape pack and put everything into my extra refrigerator for a week or two.


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## KCCam (Jun 30, 2020)

If it were me (unless maybe I had an extra fridge), I wouldn't worry about knowing the exact starting SG, and I would follow the directions until I had a few more gallons under my belt (literally  ) before I started tweaking a kit too much. If it doesn't turn out, you can blame the manufacturer, maybe even get some compensation. If you tweak it and it doesn't turn out, you only have yourself to blame. If you want to experiment, try making some Dragon Blood (there's a LONG thread here about it)! I learned more about wine-making with 2 batches of that than I did in 7 years of making kits. It's a cheap way to learn more about the why & how & when of this wonderful hobby.


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## WillShill (Jul 1, 2020)

Total novice myself done 6 kits over two years and learnt more making two 1 gallon fruit wines last autumn , low risk small outlay and free fruit and easier handling a demijohn than fermenter bucket , with a £50 kit the wife’s always ready with a “well that’s a waste of money “


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## Rocky (Jul 2, 2020)

WillShill said:


> Total novice myself done 6 kits over two years and learnt more making two 1 gallon fruit wines last autumn , low risk small outlay and free fruit and easier handling a demijohn than fermenter bucket , with a £50 kit the wife’s always ready with a “well that’s a waste of money “


Hi Will, 
I am guessing that you are somewhere in Great Britain from your reference to Pounds Sterling. As is has been said, we are "two nations separated by a common language" and many on this forum would be confused by your statement, "easier handling a demijohn than a fermentation bucket." Over here in "the Colonies," demijohn usually refers to 54 liter glass wine containers, which are very difficult to handle. I am sure you meant a container that is similar to our 1 gallon jug.

We do have one thing in common. Our brides are quick to remind us of our follies.

Welcome to the forum!


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## WillShill (Jul 2, 2020)

Rocky said:


> Hi Will,
> I am guessing that you are somewhere in Great Britain from your reference to Pounds Sterling. As is has been said, we are "two nations separated by a common language" and many on this forum would be confused by your statement, "easier handling a demijohn than a fermentation bucket." Over here in "the Colonies," demijohn usually refers to 54 liter glass wine containers, which are very difficult to handle. I am sure you meant a container that is similar to our 1 gallon jug.
> 
> We do have one thing in common. Our brides are quick to remind us of our follies.
> ...


Thanks Rocky, spot on although weirdly our gallons are larger than US version eg our 23 litre kit is 5 gallon and US is 6 gallon, don’t fancy manhandling 54 litre Demi-Johns, although if it’s full of red wine I think there’d be no shortage of help in the US or GB . Thanks for the welcome to forum it’s great to have a wine based forum ours in GB are beer dominated so posts rarely get answered.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 2, 2020)

Rocky said:


> Hi Will, I am guessing that you are somewhere in Great Britain from your reference to Pounds Sterling.





WillShill said:


> I’m in Northern Ireland and those are Uk brands I think



So close, Rocky! So close...


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 2, 2020)

WillShill said:


> Thanks Rocky, spot on although weirdly our gallons are larger than US version eg our 23 litre kit is 5 gallon and US is 6 gallon, don’t fancy manhandling 54 litre Demi-Johns, although if it’s full of red wine I think there’d be no shortage of help in the US or GB . Thanks for the welcome to forum it’s great to have a wine based forum ours in GB are beer dominated so posts rarely get answered.


WillShill, my experience on this forum is that posts *routinely *get responses. Welcome!.......................Dizzy


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## ithink2020 (Jul 2, 2020)

[REMOVED]


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## Rocky (Jul 2, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> So close, Rocky! So close...


My mistake. I should have said The United Kingdom. I believe, mathematically, UK - GB = Northern Ireland.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 2, 2020)

Rocky said:


> My mistake. I should have said The United Kingdom. I believe, mathematically, UK - GB = Northern Ireland.



That is my understanding, too. I am pleased you intuited my exact meaning on the first go!


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## ithink2020 (Jul 2, 2020)

Just a small update. Attached is a pic from this morning. SG was 1.079. I didn't take an SG this evening, but here is a *short vid* (listen with the sound on) of the sounds of winemaking.


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## ithink2020 (Jul 6, 2020)

One week in and the fermentation has started to slow, but still active. I've been punching down the grape skill bag and giving the must a good stir twice daily.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2020)

ithink2020 said:


> One week in and the fermentation has started to slow, but still active. I've been punching down the grape skill bag and giving the must a good stir twice daily.



Just a suggestion, but when I punch down the bag of skins, I first wash and sanitize my hands and then give the bag a good squeeze to extract more flavor. I do this once or twice a day during primary. When I squeeze the bag well enough, it does not float for a while and sinks to the bottom of the fermenter.


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## ithink2020 (Jul 8, 2020)

Rocky said:


> Just a suggestion, but when I punch down the bag of skins, I first wash and sanitize my hands and then give the bag a good squeeze to extract more flavor. I do this once or twice a day during primary. When I squeeze the bag well enough, it does not float for a while and sinks to the bottom of the fermenter.



I gave this a try yesterday morning and again today. Each time, there was an odd smell on my hands after giving a good squeeze. Hard to describe... The must smells normal, just the grape bag smells a little different than what I've smelled before. Again, I've not used a grape pack before, so not sure if it is normal or not.


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## KCCam (Jul 8, 2020)

ithink2020 said:


> I gave this a try yesterday morning and again today. Each time, there was an odd smell on my hands after giving a good squeeze. Hard to describe... The must smells normal, just the grape bag smells a little different than what I've smelled before. Again, I've not used a grape pack before, so not sure if it is normal or not.


I think my skin is a little sensitive to sterilizing solution, so I use rubber gloves. Much easier to sterilize, and just rinse off after. I can't comment on the smell though. I've never noticed anything from berries I squeeze making Dragon Blood. Maybe it's just more concentrated?


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## ithink2020 (Jul 12, 2020)

This evening I racked the wine into secondary. SG is at .997 and has been for the last 3 days. I ordered a new degassing wand that will be here on Wed. So I'm planning on degassing and adding clearing agents later next week.

I will say I am amazed at how much sediment was at the bottom of the primary! I don't think I had any kits in the past having that much. But it has been a long time since then. Unfortunately, I think I picked up more than I would like, hopefully it will be alright...

I did take a taste test and it is going to need time to age for sure! I already knew this, but it is very rough. It tasted a bit of green wood (best way I can describe it) and very yeasted (which I expected the yeasty taste). Only time will tell I guess...

Again, I wasn't expecting to jump into a premium kit and I'm not sure what all to expect. But wanted to get this started since it had leaked and I didn't want it to go bad sitting waiting to be made.

I'll take any words of wisdom or encouragement!


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## sour_grapes (Jul 12, 2020)

ithink2020 said:


> I'll take any words of wisdom or encouragement!



I would say that neither of those are needed! You are on the right course and doing fine.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 12, 2020)

And no need to worry about picking up sediment racking out if primary. It fell out once, it will fall out again.


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## KCCam (Jul 12, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> And no need to worry about picking up sediment racking out if primary. It fell out once, it will fall out again.


Interesting you say that. That's what I thought too. I have Dragon Blood that was crystal clear 2 days after DualFine. When racking onto sugar for backsweetening, I dropped the racking cane, and poof, the bottom wasn't so crystal clear any more. I figured "It fell out once, it will fall out again," and racked the entire contents onto the sugar. It's 3 days later and hasn't cleared very much at all. I know it eventually will, but I was hoping it would be as quick as the first time. I'm having trouble following my own advice to be patient.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 12, 2020)

Many of us, who have been making wine for a few years say that this hobby is thre best hobby, if you are a procrastinator. There is a whole bunch of truth to that.


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## ithink2020 (Jul 14, 2020)

The degassing tool came in yesterday and I had some time this evening, so I proceeded. Was a little surprised, the SG was down to .995. 

I've seen a number of people who skip the sorbate, but I decided to used the sulfite/sorbate packet that came with the kit. I don't want to deviate too far from the instructions. I put that in, then gave the degassing wand a quick little test, to judge how much gas would be released. Very little. I proceeded to degas, going one way until the wine would just start to vortex, then switching the other way. Again, very little gas. Since very little degassing was happening, I only did it for about two minutes.

I then stirred in the Kieselsol, put the airlock back on, and recovered with a paper bag. Tomorrow I will add the packet of Chitosan, and the 2nd packet of Kieselsol an hour later. Then let it sit for ~40 days. 

After 40 days, I'll rack, sulfite, and let it bulk age for a while. I'm thinking at least 3 months, maybe up to a year. It'll depend on if I get another carboy for my birthday. Then I'll let it bottle age for 6-12 more months. That's my plan at least.

What do you all do for bulk aging? I've different things stated on the web but would like to know what you all do. How often do you rack and/or sulfite?


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## KCCam (Jul 15, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Many of us, who have been making wine for a few years say that this hobby is thre best hobby, if you are a procrastinator. There is a whole bunch of truth to that.


Umm, guilty, but I'm going to say I just needed to test a theory, rather than say I'm impatient. I bought one package of Sparkaloid back when I did my very first batch of Dragon Blood because that's what the recipe said, and still have some left over. So I added *1 teaspoon *to the carboy (after boiling 10 min, etc.), gave it a gentle stir for a couple of minutes, and BAM, 1 day later it was crystal clear again. The package says 3 Tablespoons is the dose for 6 gallons. I'm guessing since there was almost nothing left to drop out that a single tsp did the trick.


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## KCCam (Jul 15, 2020)

ithink2020 said:


> I then stirred in the Kieselsol, put the airlock back on, and recovered with a paper bag. Tomorrow I will add the packet of Chitosan, and the 2nd packet of Kieselsol an hour later. Then let it sit for ~40 days.


Are those the directions in the kit? I've never seen it done that way before. Always Kieselsol first, Chitosan second. No second dose of Kieselsol. That is very interesting. The time to wait between the K & C I've seen range from "a few minutes" to 48 hours, but never saw a second dose of K. Maybe something to do with how much sediment there is?


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## cmason1957 (Jul 15, 2020)

KCCam said:


> Are those the directions in the kit? I've never seen it done that way before. Always Kieselsol first, Chitosan second. No second dose of Kieselsol. That is very interesting. The time to wait between the K & C I've seen range from "a few minutes" to 48 hours, but never saw a second dose of K. Maybe something to do with how much sediment there is?



Kits that come with two packages of Kieselsol have you add one, wait, add Chitosan, wait them add second dose of Kieselsol.


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## ithink2020 (Jul 16, 2020)

Added the remaining clearing agents last night, per the instructions. It has already dropped a ton of sediment! Now to wait 40 days, then rack and top up.


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## knockabout (Aug 9, 2020)

I’ve done 2-3 dozen kit wines.... this has got to be one of the top 3... if not #1. Make sure you save some and age a bottle one year 2 yrs and 3 years... it’s tough as your first kit but I promise you it will be worth it!


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