# People Problems



## PaulS (Sep 13, 2012)

I have a number of people that I make wine with. 

I assume that many members here also make wine in groups. 

My question is this.. Has anybody experienced problems with the people you make wine with. If so, what were the issues you have to deal with and how did you deal with them. 

I am strictly talking about issues involving bad attitudes, personality conflicts, etc.


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## robie (Sep 13, 2012)

Personality differences. Lots of fun, huh?
That's why I make wine for one of my wife's friend and myself. The day she doesn't agree or like how I make it is the day she can make it herself.

You are dealing with wine making - an art. Being an art, it is going to be hard to get agreement on how everything should be done. I don't think I could ever make wine as part of a group effort. Good luck!


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## Scott (Sep 13, 2012)

Maybe time to go solo??? Or start a small group with known good attitude atributes.


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## Arne (Sep 13, 2012)

robie said:


> Personality differences. Lots of fun, huh?
> That's why I make wine for one of my wife's friend and myself. The day she doesn't agree or like how I make it is the day she can make it herself.
> 
> You are dealing with wine making - an art. Being an art, it is going to be hard to get agreement on how everything should be done. I don't think I could ever make wine as part of a group effort. Good luck!


 

I agree Robie. If you have problems with the folks the only way you are probably going to resolve them is strike out on your own. They have their opinions, you have yours and it is gonna be tough to get everybody to agree. Course you could try it around here and find out I am right and that is the way it is. LOL, Good luck with it, Arne.


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## JohnT (Sep 13, 2012)

I am going through this very same issue as we speak. 

I am very shocked how just one person can ruin things and suck the enjoyment right out of (what used to be) a fun and happy experience. People like this are a cancer dedicated to spreading mysery and aggravation.

Not sure the best way to deal with "problem people" either, and am trying to figure that out now myself. 

johnT.


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## robie (Sep 13, 2012)

JohnT said:


> I am very shocked how just one person can ruin things and suck the enjoyment right out of (what used to be) a fun and happy experience. People like this are a cancer dedicated to spreading mysery and aggravation.
> johnT.



Well said, John. I have to hand it to you, I just don't think I could ever make wine by committee, myself. Seems there always has to be one bu** in ever group.


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## joeswine (Sep 13, 2012)

*Don't let them rent space in your head*

THERE ARE ALWAYS THOSE WHO CHOSE TO BE DOMINATE IN WHAT EVER THEY DO,AND WHO CAN'T GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT PUSHING THERE IDEAS AND NEEDS BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE'S.

YOU WILL ALWAYS FIND IN A GROUP OF WINEMAKERS THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO IS OVER COMPETITIVE,ALWAYS RIGHT AND CAN'T AGREE ON ANYTHING,THAT'S HUMAN NATURE,YOUR JOB IS TO WADE THROUGH THE CRAP AND SIFT OUT THE BS AND FIND YOUR OWN AREA OF CONFIDENCE AND SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO STAND YOUR GROUND , .IT USUALLY WORKS IT'S WAY OUT IN THE END ...


DON'T LET THEM RENT SPACE IN YOUR HEAD..ENJOY


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## Geronimo (Sep 13, 2012)

Alcohol seems to accentuate certain personality traits, which is different for every person. With that in mind, I can't imagine making wine via a group. With many other things in life, the more the merrier... just not here I'm afraid.


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## JohnT (Sep 13, 2012)

Why are you shouting Joe?


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## robie (Sep 13, 2012)

Good posts, Joe and Geronimo.


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## joea132 (Sep 13, 2012)

The less people involved the better. I buy all of the equipment myself and my partner only splits the grapes and chemicals for the batch. As much as I trust him and like him, it is always better to play safe and plan ahead. People change and it's an unfortunate situation. I hope everything ends well.


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## g8keeper (Sep 13, 2012)

ah yes....paul, the stories i could share with you from when i was a member of a home brew club here in michigan....lol...as a matter of fact, the clashing of personalities aand opinions on given matters, EVEN within a structured club environment, i would have to say eventually led to the demise of the club i was once an officer of...once the club grew to the max allowable by our club bylaws, all hell began to break loose...club officers over extending their boundaries, backed by "supportive members", begun to create a division amongst what was once a unified group....believe me paul, i can truly relate to exactly what you are talking about....my advice, keep the group you make wine with to a small, intimate group whose company you truly enjoy, that perhaps happen to share your same ideologies about how things should be done in this art...


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## JohnT (Sep 13, 2012)

g8keeper said:


> ah yes....paul, the stories i could share with you from when i was a member of a home brew club here in michigan....lol...as a matter of fact, the clashing of personalities aand opinions on given matters, EVEN within a structured club environment, i would have to say eventually led to the demise of the club i was once an officer of...once the club grew to the max allowable by our club bylaws, all hell began to break loose...club officers over extending their boundaries, backed by "supportive members", begun to create a division amongst what was once a unified group....believe me paul, i can truly relate to exactly what you are talking about....my advice, keep the group you make wine with to a small, intimate group whose company you truly enjoy, that perhaps happen to share your same ideologies about how things should be done in this art...


 
Boy, You sort of nailed my situation on the head. Perhaps the best course of action for me is to do exactly what I have done. Shut the club down and just make a little wine for myself!


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## PaulS (Sep 13, 2012)

I hate to do that john. I spent years developing a group of winemakers. The "problem person" is a guy that I knew (sort of) for most of my life. He was (up until a few years ago) a pleasure to be around. He started out as just a beginner, not knowing a thing about making wine. Once his knowledge and confidence in winemaking improved, he became more and more of a problem to deal with. As time went on, he became more and more fustrated and angry. He also became very passive/aggressive in his actions, taking any opportunity to simply jab at me. I am at the point now where I have simply had enough.


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## g8keeper (Sep 13, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Boy, You sort of nailed my situation on the head. Perhaps the best course of action for me is to do exactly what I have done. Shut the club down and just make a little wine for myself!


 
john, i wouldn't quite go that far...i admit, i honestly miss the comaraderie of the group environment BEFORE we got too big....it was great getting together twice a month, once for meetings to handle club business on a saturday night, and then once again on a sunday to actually make beer and wine....it only became a hassle when certain club "ideals" were misinterpreted by some, and others agreed with the misconstrued logic, and lines in the sand started getting drawn....it was great bouncing certain ideas off of each other, and learning from each other when we had a more intimate club....i would say for us, 10 - 15 was the sweet spot in numbers....when we hit our 25 max, it went totally downhill....if interested, john, pm me and i can share stories....lol....


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## Rocky (Sep 13, 2012)

joeswine said:


> THERE ARE ALWAYS THOSE WHO CHOSE TO BE DOMINATE IN WHAT EVER THEY DO,AND WHO CAN'T GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE WITHOUT PUSHING THERE IDEAS AND NEEDS BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE'S.
> 
> YOU WILL ALWAYS FIND IN A GROUP OF WINEMAKERS THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO IS OVER COMPETITIVE,ALWAYS RIGHT AND CAN'T AGREE ON ANYTHING,THAT'S HUMAN NATURE,YOUR JOB IS TO WADE THROUGH THE CRAP AND SIFT OUT THE BS AND FIND YOUR OWN AREA OF CONFIDENCE AND SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO STAND YOUR GROUND , .IT USUALLY WORKS IT'S WAY OUT IN THE END ...
> 
> ...


 
You are absolutely right, Joe. People who think they know everything really aggravate those of us who do!


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## PaulS (Sep 13, 2012)

Here are the specifics of my situation.

I started and have been managing a winemaking group out of my home for the past 15 years. It all started with just my immediate family, but over time the winemaking evolved and grew to include my entire family, friends, coworkers, and even friends of friends. As my winemaking knowledge increased, and after several successful years, the number of people in the group grew substantially. When it came to the group, I never made any profit on our winemaking activities, preferring instead to keep winemaking a purly social activity.

I was always careful about who I would include as part of the winemaking group. For the most part, I looked forward to each year’s crush and a number of bottling parties through the summer. I enjoyed winemaking so much that Crush Day became the highlight of my calendar year.

I like to think of “crush day” as being a working party. A typical crush day would go from 8am to about 3am. Sure, we have tasks to accomplish, but we always managed to have fun in the process. There were many people in our group that worked hard, and many others that just liked to watch. I would provide Food, Drink, Party favors, even some gag gifts for individuals in the group. It all was very enjoyable… 

…but that was before “The Scourge” joined our group.

I have always believed in Tuttle’s law. According to this law, the chances of there being a “black sheep” in any group of people increases exponentially to the number of people introduced to that group. That is to say, the more people you have, the more likely that at least one of them turns out to be trouble. 

I had known “The Scourge” almost all my life. He was the nephew of a friend of my mother. He joined not even knowing if it was possible to make a decent homemade wine. For the first eight years or so, he played little or no role my winemaking group. He was always on the sidelines and never really contributed much. Two years ago, “The Scourge” retired. With a lot of time on his hands, and no family of his own, he started searching for something to occupy his time. When he realized that we were producing good wine and also having a great time doing so, he targeted the winemaking group to fulfill the gap in his otherwise empty life.

It all started innocently enough with him offering to help out more. To be honest, I felt I could use the help. I had him helping me with a lot of the tasks that I would normally do myself and I was glad to have his help. This all changed over time. As “The Scourge” learned more and more about winemaking, and his comfort level increased, he started to see himself as the manager of the group and that crush day was his baby.

I had a long standing agreement that folks could do as much or as little work as they wanted. This maintained a very friendly environment. I know that this might sound crazy, but the system worked and I always had more help than I needed. 

The real problems started when “The Scourge” took it upon himself to order around the other people in our group. These people were friends, family and coworkers and NOT field hands. Working under his deluded sense of authority, “The Scourge” took it upon himself to be the job foreman. Without even a please or thank you, he would make the other people feel like dirt. It got so bad that I had to stop one of the guys in our group from actually punching him.

As time march on, “The Scourge” began to argue with me more and more over small aspects of my wine making. He would become increasingly frustrated when I would shoot his ideas down. Most of the time his ideas were either too expensive, had no appreciable merit, or already been tried in the past with bad results. He did not listen to the reasons why I shot his ideas down. He simply focused on the fact his ideas got shot down. 

Eventually he became very resentful and adopted a “rather ask forgiveness then ask permission” philosophy. In other words, he simply stopped telling me his ideas and would go ahead and act on them behind my back, leaving me to find out later. He began to take great joy in keeping me in the dark and It made him feel important and superior. 

A case in point, “the Scourge” called my local HBWS and changed my grape order without telling me. He changed the varietal, and the quantity. I found out about this when I went to pick up my grapes. This is just one case in a long list of episodes. 

Every time an event like this would happen, I would simply see it as a betrayal and I would react accordingly. This sort of played into “The Scourge’s” hands. “The Scourge” would simply act hurt, telling everybody else in the group that “I was only trying to help”. As it turns out, “The Scourge” was an amazing politician. He was very successful in partitioning the winemaking group into three camps, “the scourge” camp, my camp, and those poor people that simply did not want to get involved.

It got so bad with “the Scourge” that I had to make a tough choice. If I kicked him out of the group, I will lose all of the members of his camp. I might also lose a good portion of the “don’t get me involved” group. Ultimately, I forced myself to remember how things used to be, before the camps, before “the scourge”, and how much I enjoyed winemaking. My ultimate decision was to ask him to leave. 

Although some folks in our group did follow him, there were a good number of folks that did stay with me. 

I feel that I have learned the following lessons... 

1) Deal with problems immediately. Had I dealt with “the scourge” as soon as there was a problem, I would have avoided a lot of grief. 

2) Do NOT try to be the “nice guy” and make everybody happy. In so doing, I allowed the fun and joy of the winemaking experience wither and die. 

3) Be careful who you share your passion with. Remember, it’s only a matter of time before Tuttle’s Black Sheep shows up. 

4) Set your goal on what you want to get out of winemaking. If having fun and sharing a good time with your friends and family is as important as making good wine, then do not let anybody try to take that away from you.


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## JohnT (Sep 13, 2012)

Very interesting read Paul.

I am not sure what to tell you. I think things like this are eventual sooner or later.


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## robie (Sep 13, 2012)

Paul, you definitely waited too long.
In the end you did the right thing. How long do you think it will take his buds to see how he operates? If they don't, let them go, anyway.

It is inevitable someone like that will try to sneak in. It is as though it is a part of nature... Next time deal with it sooner.

Had he changed my grape order, he and I would have had more than a little talk, immediately. No second chances!

I have never figured out why people like him are people like him!!!


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## Scott (Sep 13, 2012)

Now you have returned to your core group, they are the ones who have your back. Good restraint keeping the one person from adjusting "the scourge's" attitude, would have been tough. Don't need any added drama in winemaking!

Good luck


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## Rocky (Sep 13, 2012)

Wow, that is quite a story, Paul. You and your group are well rid of him.


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## joeswine (Sep 13, 2012)

*john T*

I can see the letters better,have a visual problem,my editor correct it in bound ..................


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## deanrwp (Sep 13, 2012)

I originally started to make my own wine over 5 years ago....due to me being influenced when I was younger by my late great uncle who made wine out of everything and anything....with which I liked a lot....so I bought my 1st wine kit out of Wilkinson....it proved to be successful with my best friend and his family....so since then I have been experimenting with different fruits & even Potato....I have had such Great feedback from everyone that I continued to making more and more....if it was a failure I wouldn't have continued making more wine as there is cost of it all that you also have to take into consideration...apart from my wife who don't like my Potato wine....die Tibet fact it is very strong....but to me that is a good sign....as it tells me that it is good **** excuse the expression 
But at the end of the day it is all down to your personal preference whether you enjoy making wine for your own enjoyment or is it to please others when in fact it is Not....as after all it is us who make the wine...it is us who perfect it to our own required taste....I just happen to have good friends who enjoy my creations....that in itself makes me feel really proud of what I can achieve in life as it is a strength Not a weakness....only people who don't appreciate your wines ate the ones who have the weakness & obviously miss out!

So sorry for the novel....but enjoy what you do and don't let others spoil your enjoyment!


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## Wade E (Sep 13, 2012)

LOL, Im nit sure joeswine knows how to shut off the caps button. He's a great guy though and makes damn good wine! Im not big on group things myself, I hate the know it all thats above everyone else and also hate the one who thinks he knows it all and theres one of each it seems in every crowd.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm lucky in the fact everyone that helps me likes my wine and just wants to help out because it's interesting. Several on them are now buying juice pails for me to make for them and want to be there to help. I always give them options and ask if there is something different they would like me to do. They always tell me to just make it the way I want. Oh Yeah...these same people will usually buy me a pail or two for making their wines.

I also have an old timer thats benn making wine for a long time and will call and ask me questions. When I give my opinion it's usually not right as he already has his mind made up it should be done how he's always done it. Keep in mine doing things the way you always did will always get the same results. If thats what you want then that's ok, or do you want to experiment and try to improve on what youve been doing?


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## JohnT (Sep 14, 2012)

Wolf, 

I think that your situation works because you are truly the only winemaker. If the results are good, they will not get "all up in yo bidness". 

For me, my problem is training people to the point where they want to call all of the shots. 

johnT


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## JohnT (Sep 14, 2012)

joeswine said:


> I can see the letters better,have a visual problem,my editor correct it in bound ..................


 
No problem. I was only joking!


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## Runningwolf (Sep 14, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Wolf,
> 
> I think that your situation works because you are truly the only winemaker. If the results are good, they will not get "all up in yo bidness".
> 
> ...


 
I absolutely agree with you.


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## tonyt (Sep 14, 2012)

PaulS, fantastic thread. Very interesting (frightful) posts from several folks. I am the only person that I know makes wine in my city. I have always yearned to know and work with other home winemakers. Maybe I should rethink that.

Actually you folks are my winemaking club. Thanks to all of you.


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2012)

The only helper I have and the only one I want is my Bride. She has a strong background in chemistry (BS & MS in Pharmacy) and helps me greatly with the technical stuff and testing. I provide (what is left of) the muscle and the unskilled labor and it is a great activity for us in retirement. We both enjoy wine making, drinking and sharing with friends.

As Tony points out, this forum is all the wine making help one could need. I guess I am like that _Anacin_ commercial of long ago, "Mother, please, I'd rather do it myself!"


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## dangerdave (Sep 15, 2012)

My Wine Lab is a one man operation. The rug reads, "Keep Out". Few are the folks (friend and family only) who get to see inside. No one has offered, and I need no one's help to produce the amount of wine I make. But I have always been a lone wolf. My lovely wife helps out with note-taking when she so desires. I've been trying to get her to make a kit of her own, but she says that's "my thing". Her thing is drinking my wine, and being my biggest fan.

Thanks for the stories, all. Dealing with other human beings is an _art_. Like an old preacher once told me, "This world would be a wonderful place if it wasn't covered with people."

Cheers!


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## g8keeper (Sep 15, 2012)

well until the club got to be too big, and certain personality traits began to rear their ugly little faces, i loved my club experience....it was great....both fun and educational....we'd have a club meeting once a month, where we would conduct business affairs, see how we were doing financially and all, announce what we were making that month, as well as what local events of interest may be going on...we'd ask general membership if they had any issues they felt needed to be addressed...then there was fun time where we would socialize, nibble on snacks, and of course tip a few bottles....lol...people would bring some of their new production for everyone to sample and such....it was a great evening....then we would get together on a sunday, and we would brew....it would be an all day event as we did both beer and wine...beer making would start about 9 am...those that signed up to get in on that month's brew would show up about then to help finish getting everything set up as we normally would do all grain mash recipes....we would have a lunch and then around 1 pm those that were making wine, would gather up and mix their batches together....normally the wort was boiled, chilled, divided, and ready for everyone to pitch their yeasts by about 4-5....everything would get cleaned up and we would have a dinner that was provided by the member who volunteered to be the "host" for that month's brew....we also held 2 fundraiser events each year, the proceeds of which went to new equipment for the club, such as new burners and a chiller for beer, and crusher and other things for wine...we would organize and hold a wine tasting in the spring where members would donate bottles of their wine, appoved by the exec. committee, and there would be snacks and such during the tasting...the vintner would explain about each of the wines being served....afterwards a dinner and after party was held....then in the fall we would do the same thing with beer, holding it in late september/early october and called it our octoberfest....we'd also have get together partys for halloween, superbowl and other various occasions....we also had a club only competition and banquet at the end of the year...like i saiod, it was great UNTIL we got to be too big, and personalities clashed...i'd love to belong to something like that again...i really do miss the good times...


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## Rocky (Sep 15, 2012)

Ken, that sounds like a great social and professional arrangement. I can understand why you miss it. In a way, it is not dissimilar from this forum. I note that the moderators and administrator are quick to take action when a problem is begins to show itself. Good lesson there.


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