# Barrel or stainless steel tank?



## zadvocate (Feb 19, 2018)

I have limited space and funds. I want to get either a barrel or a stainless steel variable volume tank as my next piece of equipment. Which would you recommend to purchase first?This would only be a eight or 10 gallon barrel.


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## ibglowin (Feb 19, 2018)

Do you make mostly red or white wine?


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## zadvocate (Feb 19, 2018)

ibglowin said:


> Do you make mostly red or white wine?


Historically red but now I’m starting to get into white wine a lot more. So it’s probably close to 50-50


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## cmason1957 (Feb 19, 2018)

A tank can be used for either red or white, while a barrel, once used for a red can't be used for whites any longer.


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## ibglowin (Feb 19, 2018)

A tank can’t do what a barrel can do for a red wine however. Whereas a carboy and a tank do the same thing for a white wine, ie keep out oxygen.


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## balatonwine (Feb 20, 2018)

A barrel is only good for a few years for "oaking" wine. Then you have to shave them and re-toast. And a barrel needs TLC, else the staves might shrink and leak. Wood can pick up and retain all sorts of bacteria et al. one year that can spoil the wine the next year.

A stainless steel (SS) tank should last your lifetime. Easy to clean. And you can always add oak chips to the wine in SS if you want to oak a red (and thus even gives you many different and variable "oaking" options for any wine you create, year in and year out, and year to year which a barrel can not do). Personally, IMHO, for a hobbyist, SS is the better, more flexible option.

You can also consider HDPE over either of the above. But SS is still probably the easier flex-volume tank option available.


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## ibglowin (Feb 20, 2018)

You do not have to re-toast them when neutral. At that point you can just add oak adjuncts straight into to the barrel and age as normal. You can add french oak or american oak once neutral and change it up to your liking. Yes barrels require you to maintain a level of sanitization and cleaning that a SS tank doesn't require but a SS tank does not provide (on its own) micro-ox and concentration through evaporation that a barrel provides. There simply is no comparison or substitution (IMHO) for a well maintained barrel if your making red wines. I got my first small barrel back in 2010 and it is still in use today.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 20, 2018)

Barrels wear out (technically they go neutral), stainless steel will not.


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## Johnd (Feb 20, 2018)

ibglowin said:


> You do not have to re-toast them when neutral. At that point you can just add oak adjuncts straight into to the barrel and age as normal. You can add french oak or american oak once neutral and change it up to your liking. Yes barrels require you to maintain a level of sanitization and cleaning that a SS tank doesn't require but a SS tank does not provide (on its own) micro-ox and concentration through evaporation that a barrel provides. There simply is no comparison or substitution (IMHO) for a well maintained barrel if your making red wines. I got my first small barrel back in 2010 and it is still in use today.



Well stated, couldn’t agree more!!!


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## zadvocate (Feb 20, 2018)

A lot of great responses I really do appreciate it. I’m now even more confused. LOL


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## ceeaton (Feb 20, 2018)

zadvocate said:


> A lot of great responses I really do appreciate it. I’m now even more confused. LOL


Well, pick one and down the road pick up the other one you don't buy now. Maybe the first one you pick you really like, but someday I'd like to own both, just not financially feasible today (maybe tomorrow).


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## NorCal (Feb 21, 2018)

I wouldn’t buy a barrel that small. I would be looking at a 15 gallon flex tank. The ease of care of SS, but with the benefit of micro ox. If I didn’t make enough to do 15 gallons, I’d stick to glass, until I did.


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## balatonwine (Feb 21, 2018)

ibglowin said:


> You do not have to re-toast them when neutral. At that point you can just add oak adjuncts straight into to the barrel and age as normal. You can add french oak or american oak once neutral and change it up to your liking.



That is of course correct.

But then the wood barrel is no different than a stainless steal tank regarding oaking. So why not just start with stainless steel?** Or flextank as NorCal said if one wants micro-oxygenation.


** To answer my own question: Even when it has gone neutral, a wood barrel has a bit of romance, history, nostalgia, and just the "idea" knowing the wine was in a wood barrel is something. And those are all also good reasons to have a barrel for some.


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## Johnd (Feb 21, 2018)

To each his / her own. In my world, barrels rule supreme in the production of traditionally packed red wine. No other vessel can duplicate its flavor, period. Even when that flavor is gone, no other vessel duplicates the microx AND concentration of a barrel. There’s a reason folks, why wineries continue to spend big bucks on great coopers and their barrels, and it’s not nostalgic, or cool. If there were as good of a method to to achieve the same results, barrels would be rarely used in the modern winery.


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## ibglowin (Feb 21, 2018)

Flex tanks are nice. I own two of them. They are great for micro ox and easy to clean but they don't give you any concentration through evaporation which produces a superior product in the end IMHO.

And as for not buying anything less than a 15G barrel. Bigger is better in wine barrels for sure but not everybody lives next to a vineyard in Northern California and has the space and $$$ to purchase grapes by the ton, has the help to process those grapes into wine and has enough family and friends to ultimately drink that much wine so for some of us a 23L or 6G barrel is a nice way to get your feet wet and take your wine to the next level of quality.



balatonwine said:


> But then the wood barrel is no different than a stainless steal tank regarding oaking. So why not just start with stainless steel?** Or flextank as NorCal said if one wants micro-oxygenation.


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## NorCal (Feb 21, 2018)

ibglowin said:


> Flex tanks are nice. I own two of them. They are great for micro ox and easy to clean but they don't give you any concentration through evaporation which produces a superior product in the end IMHO.
> 
> And as for not buying anything less than a 15G barrel. Bigger is better in wine barrels for sure but not everybody lives next to a vineyard in Northern California and has the space and $$$ to purchase grapes by the ton, has the help to process those grapes into wine and has enough family and friends to ultimately drink that much wine so for some of us a 23L or 6G barrel is a nice way to get your feet wet and take your wine to the next level of quality.



Yes I’m spoiled, but my recommendation was based on my experience with smaller barrels as I was getting started in the hobby. Even with a 30 gallon barrel, I was over oaking my wine. The rule of thumb of 1 week in the barrel for every gallon the barrel holds, means there is a lot of caring for an empty barrel, unless there is a line-up of kits to rotate in.


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## ibglowin (Feb 21, 2018)

Yep, Rule#1 on owning a small barrel is to commit to keeping it full all the time. Waaay to much hassle if you can't. If you can't do that then stay with a carboy or a Flextank (15G is the smallest) or a SS Tank of sorts. Not sure I remember the details on your 30G barrel but I can honestly say that owning 4 of the 23L Vadai's for 7 years now I never once over oaked a wine. Perhaps its something to do with Hungarian Oak vs French or American but they have always when new seemed to be forgiving and fall back after the short upfront stays in the barrel when new. After that, once broken in, 6 months is the sweet spot. Then when Neutral add Staves, Xoakers, Winestix or any other high quality oak adjunct. Follow the directions as far as amounts and of course taste, taste, taste along the way.


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## JohnT (Feb 21, 2018)

+ 1 on the great advice that others have provided...

How much wine are we talking about?? 

- if you are looking to put 8 or 10 gallons into a steel tank, I would advise against that. Use carboys instead.
Also, the smaller the tank, the more it will cost per liter of storage (take cost and divide by capacity). I would not waste my time on a 100 liter tank, but you will find that 200, 300, or a 500 liter tank well worth the money in the long run.

- although you do not get the full benefit of a wood barrel, you can always add oak adjuncts to get some wood influence in you wine.


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## balatonwine (Feb 22, 2018)

Johnd said:


> There’s a reason folks, why wineries continue to spend big bucks on great coopers and their barrels, and it’s not nostalgic, or cool. If there were as good of a method to to achieve the same results, barrels would be rarely used in the modern winery.



Agree that nothing oaks wine like wine against the staves of a barrel. But big wineries keep coopers in business because once the barrels go neutral, they typically shave and re-toast or replace them. Because adding oak chips to a neutral barrel is not what most big wineries do -- because that will never be the same as what the natural barrel wood will do. 

But we are of course replying to the OP, who is not a big winery. So, I am simply saying, as the OP has limited funds, starting with a neutral, worry free, easy to clean and care for vessel is probably a much better plan than buying a barrel, which will require more work to maintain and a wine making style change in a few years as the barrel goes neutral. But again, that is just my suggestion.

Side note:

This is how I see it regarding "modern wineries": there are a lot of modern wineries now trying all sorts of different vessels. Such as concrete, plastic (i.e. flextank), steel, clay. Saying that a modern winery is defined by using wood barrels is.... well.... limited. I would say the real *modern* wineries are doing things differently than *tradition* dictates. And large wineries tend to be tradition bound because big business tends to be conservative. Real modern wineries are the small ones. The ones who can experiment. Innovate. And, yes, barrels may not be used there. But that is just my view, of course.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 22, 2018)

Johnd said:


> To each his / her own. In my world, barrels rule supreme in the production of traditionally packed red wine. No other vessel can duplicate its flavor, period. Even when that flavor is gone, no other vessel duplicates the microx AND concentration of a barrel. There’s a reason folks, why wineries continue to spend big bucks on great coopers and their barrels, and it’s not nostalgic, or cool. If there were as good of a method to to achieve the same results, barrels would be rarely used in the modern winery.



Agree 100% but they are also nostalgic and cool! LOL


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## Johnd (Feb 22, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Agree that nothing oaks wine like wine against the staves of a barrel. But big wineries keep coopers in business because once the barrels go neutral, they typically shave and re-toast or replace them. Because adding oak chips to a neutral barrel is not what most big wineries do -- because that will never be the same as what the natural barrel wood will do.
> 
> But we are of course replying to the OP, who is not a big winery. So, I am simply saying, as the OP has limited funds, starting with a neutral, worry free, easy to clean and care for vessel is probably a much better plan than buying a barrel, which will require more work to maintain and a wine making style change in a few years as the barrel goes neutral. But again, that is just my suggestion.
> 
> ...



But you continue to miss the point several have made, in response to the OP, even when a barrel is neutral, and it’s oaking ability comes from the same source as the tank, the barrel is still superior, as it still microoxygenates and concentrates, this is a quality duplicated by no other vessel. I find no difficulty in maintaining my barrels in a sanitary fashion, and have an appropriate number that they’re easy to keep loaded. 

Your view of “modern winemaking”, is quite different than mine, though I respect your opinion. You’ve misunderstood my statement if you believe that I’ve said that modern wineries are defined by their usage of barrels.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 22, 2018)

NorCal said:


> Yes I’m spoiled, but my recommendation was based on my experience with smaller barrels as I was getting started in the hobby. Even with a 30 gallon barrel, I was over oaking my wine. The rule of thumb of 1 week in the barrel for every gallon the barrel holds, means there is a lot of caring for an empty barrel, unless there is a line-up of kits to rotate in.



I heard of a few theories for how long to keep wine in a smaller barrel but never this one. It seems to be the simplest though, thanks. But wouldn't that time get extended as the barrel gets used? Not questioning you approach but as others have stated I don't have the means to make larger batches but prefer using a barrel so I'm stuck with the smaller ones.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 22, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> I heard of a few theories for how long to keep wine in a smaller barrel but never this one. It seems to be the simplest though, thanks. But wouldn't that time get extended as the barrel gets used? Not questioning you approach but as others have stated I don't have the means to make larger batches but prefer using a barrel so I'm stuck with the smaller ones.



I think that rule applies to new barrels, and would therefore be pretty close. My ~6 gallon barrels all held their first wines for about 5-ish weeks. If memory serves, I added a touch of oak later to most of those batches. So a 50 gallon barrel would have its first wine in for about a year.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 22, 2018)

Your view of “modern winemaking”, is quite different than mine, though I respect your opinion. You’ve misunderstood my statement if you believe that I’ve said that modern wineries are defined by their usage of barrels.[/QUOTE]

IMO the terms "large" and "modern" are relative. What is modern, is it pre 1900s, pre 2000 or the new concept of engineered wines. The same applies to large, are we talking E&J Gallo or others that produce millions of cases a year or a smaller commercial winery that sells primarily local and what I call Artisan Wines. To me we all fall in the artisan category which I feel is where should focus our attention. This post is not to promote or demote wood, steel, plastic, glass containers or oak additives, I just think too much comparison is made to the million case producers which we are not. Might have gotten a bit off track from the OP, sorry.

@Johnd I had to edit this because the more I thought about it, in using your quote, it might appear I was combating you. Quite the contrary, I was agreeing with you. Hope you dodn't take it any other way.


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## JohnT (Feb 22, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> I think that rule applies to new barrels, and would therefore be pretty close. My ~6 gallon barrels all held their first wines for about 5-ish weeks. If memory serves, I added a touch of oak later to most of those batches. So a 50 gallon barrel would have its first wine in for about a year.




This rule of thumb is just that, a rule of thumb. A lot depends on taste. For planning purposes, 1 week per gallon is a good place to start. When barrel aging, keep in touch with your wine. Make it a point to taste it along the way and let yourself decided when enough is enough.

The point of the rule of thumb is to reflect the barrel ratio. Take the all over volume in the barrel and compare it to the amount of surface area inside the barrel (in contact with the wine). Believe it or not, the smaller the barrel, the amount of surface area to volume increases, and, the more oak exposure you will end up getting.

And, yes, I consider a week per gallon a rule of thumb for new barrels. I extend this rule of thumb to 10 days per gallon for 2nd use, 14 days per gallon for 3rd use, etc. 

By the 5th use, I find my barrel pretty much neutral. I still use these barrels but I add an oak adjunct (XOV staves) to the wine as it settles in the SS tank. Once oaked, I then "barrel-up" for however long strikes my fancy. I do pick up concentration of flavors and a wonderful softening due to micro-oxidation.

Getting back to the OP. It sounds like you do batches under 10 gallons. If this is the case, I would not bother with stainless tanks and go with glass instead. I would get that small barrel and not use it until I had a stock pile of batches that I would like to oaked (say 4 or 5 of them) so that I can keep the barrel full.


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## balatonwine (Feb 23, 2018)

Johnd said:


> But you continue to miss the point several have made, in response to the OP, even when a barrel is neutral, and it’s oaking ability comes from the same source as the tank, the barrel is still superior, as it still microoxygenates and concentrates, this is a quality duplicated by no other vessel.



Well, contrary to your opinion, I actually did not miss your point. But simply have a different view on it all. And I think that the folks at Flextank may think their product can do micro-oxygenation as well as any wood barrel.  That is the beauty of having opinions. 

And of course micro-oxygenation and concentrates is still, at the end of the day, just one wine making style. And not the only option everyone wants to do or should do.

And the OP did say he is getting into white wine making. Many whites actually do better, under some wine making styles, if they never see a barrel. So suggesting barrels means he would have to buy one for use forever for red and maybe one for those whites that do well in barrels, and then something else for whites that do better in non-oak barrel containers. That is getting all rather pricey at the end of the day. And, again, for someone on a limited budget, a neutral container, like steel, is better if one will be doing different wine types, with different and variable volumes over time and between batches, simply because of economy. So I am trying my best to stay within the OP's terms and fiscal limits, for the benefit of the OP, rather than injecting my personal, ideological preference on the perfect container. And do note, I am recommending a variable capacity stainless steel container, even though I mostly use HDPE. So not even really recommending my personal tank preference as I don't think what I use would be the best option for the OP for the OP's circumstances. 

In the end, I think the OP can figure out who, amongst all the various comments and commentators, is trying to given him the best all around and unbiased advice that are in his best interests. I need say no more here on the topic of what container to use. 



Johnd said:


> You’ve misunderstood my statement if you believe that I’ve said that modern wineries are defined by their usage of barrels.



If that is the case, then I apologize.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 23, 2018)

zadvocate said:


> I have limited space and funds. I want to get either a barrel or a stainless steel variable volume tank as my next piece of equipment. Which would you recommend to purchase first?This would only be a eight or 10 gallon barrel.



This sounds more like a question of timing instead of ‘which vessel is is more ideal? insinuating you’ll have both eventually. 
If I’m correct then this same question is also on my horizon so I can relate. It sounds like your stepping your game up with the goal of making more volume and having a barrel to oak as desired. Buying a VC now (along with your current vessels) would allow you age the year in the tank. Hopefully in a position to purchase a barrel and oak the wine before fall 2019. And time it so you can finish oaking and bottle to free up the tank for the 2019’s wine while rotating that tank through the ‘never empty’ barrel. 
I know a couple guys who only get grapes every other year because of the this hassle of timing and vessel space. They also have a stockpile of unused neutral barrels.


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## zadvocate (Feb 24, 2018)

I had hoped for some overwhelming answer guiding me In on direction or the other. I definitely intend to have both options in the future. I love the variable volume functionality of the SS tank but I really want the micro ox and concentration of a barrel. I think I will get a 5 gallon barreleith the following in mind: Chilean Chardonnay for 5 weeks, followed by carmenere for 7 weeks. Then come fall I will put make 10 gallons of cab that I will run through it which should keep me close to spring. Does this sound feasible? I would be buying a vadaia barrel too.


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## Johnd (Feb 24, 2018)

zadvocate said:


> I had hoped for some overwhelming answer guiding me In on direction or the other. I definitely intend to have both options in the future. I love the variable volume functionality of the SS tank but I really want the micro ox and concentration of a barrel. I think I will get a 5 gallon barreleith the following in mind: Chilean Chardonnay for 5 weeks, followed by carmenere for 7 weeks. Then come fall I will put make 10 gallons of cab that I will run through it which should keep me close to spring. Does this sound feasible? I would be buying a vadaia barrel too.



You could probably over oak the chard in 5 weeks, since it’s first in, check it frequently til it’s done. Time your barrel purchase right, and you’ll be ready for your fall Cab for sure! I suspect you’ll be pleased with Vadai, the make a fine product, and couldn’t be any more helpful and friendly. Good luck!!


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## JohnT (Feb 25, 2018)

But then again, here is a pice from last crush. Look how happy these three are when bringing in a new barrel...


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## Johnd (Feb 25, 2018)

JohnT said:


> View attachment 46819
> But then again, here is a pice from last crush. Look how happy these three are when bringing in a new barrel...



That’s always a happy day!! I love the way you and your friends / family do your winemaking together.......OK, I’m jealous!! My winemaking is pretty much in my own little vacuum, but WMT fills the void pretty well.


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## zadvocate (Jul 9, 2019)

I just purchased a 28 L French barrel from artisan barrels. Has anyone ever used them? Their prices were reasonable.


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## mainshipfred (Jul 9, 2019)

zadvocate said:


> I just purchased a 28 L French barrel from artisan barrels. Has anyone ever used them? Their prices were reasonable.



How much was it, I can't seem to find their price sheet.


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## zadvocate (Jul 9, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> How much was it, I can't seem to find their price sheet.



https://artisanbarrels.com/uploads/9/3/7/3/93731730/2019_barrel_order_form_small_final_12.pdf

220 for a 28L plus 55 shipping. I read that some of the smaller ones may be waxed but I don’t think the 28 L is. I ask and she said 
smaller barrels are as the oak to liquid ratio is so high. In the case they are waxed, a warm water rinse will remove it.


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## zadvocate (Jul 10, 2019)

Confirmed, the 28L is not waxed. It already shipped and I should be getting it next week.


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## mainshipfred (Jul 10, 2019)

zadvocate said:


> Confirmed, the 28L is not waxed. It already shipped and I should be getting it next week.



That's a pretty nice price, let us know what you think of it when it arrives.


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## zadvocate (Jul 10, 2019)

I thought so too. I will post pictures. They are specially made for this company. Here is the company that makes them. http://www.tonnellerie-allary.com/c...cooperage-art-tradition/small-oak-barrel.html They sell them for 144 Euro. https://boutique.tonnellerie-allary.com/fr/petits-futs-chene/9-fut-chene-28l.html[URL]https://boutique.tonnellerie-allary.com/fr/petits-futs-chene/9-fut-chene-28l.html [/URL]


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## zadvocate (Jul 16, 2019)

Just received the Barrel it looks very nice.



FYI the 2019 come with a cradle and spigot and will be in mid August. This one did not.


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## Spudwrench12 (Jul 17, 2019)

Has anyone dealt with oakbarrelsforsale.com ? Any option on this outfit ?


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## zadvocate (Jul 18, 2019)

That is a scam website I believe. https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/new-barrels-for-forum-members.67181/page-6#post-728802


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## jsbeckton (Sep 26, 2019)

So have you put that barrel into service yet? What are your thoughts?


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## zadvocate (Sep 27, 2019)

I just inoculated my chardonnay today and once that stops fermentiing I will be putting the barrel to use. It looks good to me. The company has been great thus far. I expect it will be good.


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