# Question About Honey



## Pumpkinman (Dec 27, 2012)

I have been searching for the best fresh, local honey that I can find to make my next batch of Red Dragon/Quad Berry MeloMel.
I've located a source that has honey which is Raw, Unheated & Unfiltered.
They stated:


> Our raw honey is only strained to remove any large bits of comb & wax so it still does contain the pollen and enzymes because it is not micro-filtered. We do not heat the honey like the commercial honey packers do (the ones in the supermarkets) to break down any sugar crystals. This is why their honey will stay clear on the shelves. When you heat above 115 degrees, it destroys the antioxidants, enzymes, vitamins and other beneficial attributes.



I guess my question is whether "Raw, Unheated & Unfiltered" is ok to use, or will it contain microorganisms that could spoil the Melomel?

Thanks in advance,
Tom


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## mmadmikes1 (Dec 27, 2012)

It is ok. enjoy the mead


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## Terry0220 (Dec 27, 2012)

If your in the Western PA area, I have friends that have bees, in fact some are here at my place. They do not use chemicals on their bees, they do as much as they can naturally. If interested PM me and I will give you their number.


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## ShawnDTurner (Dec 27, 2012)

this is the best type of honey. I would use it, if you are un sure I will give you my address so you can send it to me! LOL.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 27, 2012)

Yes it does, but a little KM will take care of them or having a good starter going before innoculation will out compete the yeasts that are in the raw honey. WVMJ



Pumpkinman said:


> I have been searching for the best fresh, local honey that I can find to make my next batch of Red Dragon/Quad Berry MeloMel.
> I've located a source that has honey which is Raw, Unheated & Unfiltered.
> They stated:
> 
> ...


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## mmadmikes1 (Dec 28, 2012)

I have never had to add KM(KMeta) to honey and never will. Seems everyone is over using this stuff. No wild yeast in honey as far as I know. There are some microbes that can live in it but alcohol kills them just fine. High sugars are a great preservitive. Anyone here adding KM to Jelly? When a person is talking about using natural methods and raw honey why mess it up with a poison. Yes K-Meta is a poison. You are using it to kill live organisms! If you don't need it, dont use it!!!!!!(I climb down off soapbox now)


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 29, 2012)

Sorry Mike but you are a little wrong. When you make jelly you heat everything up, that kills all the microbes, the sugar content remains high, but some bugs can still grow on the top, bad news, they send their roots deep into the jelly, so just scrapping off the top doesnt remove it. Honey can ferment once its over 18,6% moisture, by yeast in the honey, that is why beekeepers are careful when they harvest their supers, if its not dry enough it will ferment by the yeasts IN the honey, they really are everywhere. Yes sugar levels are a nice preservative, but once you dilute the honey all that protection is gone, otherwise how do you think you can ferment it? Potassium is something your body needs to live, you eat sulfites all the time in natural food, you cant get much less of a poisonous poison than KM. WVMJ


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## fatbloke (Dec 30, 2012)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Sorry Mike but you are a little wrong. When you make jelly you heat everything up, that kills all the microbes, the sugar content remains high, but some bugs can still grow on the top, bad news, they send their roots deep into the jelly, so just scrapping off the top doesnt remove it. Honey can ferment once its over 18,6% moisture, by yeast in the honey, that is why beekeepers are careful when they harvest their supers, if its not dry enough it will ferment by the yeasts IN the honey, they really are everywhere. Yes sugar levels are a nice preservative, but once you dilute the honey all that protection is gone, otherwise how do you think you can ferment it? Potassium is something your body needs to live, you eat sulfites all the time in natural food, you cant get much less of a poisonous poison than KM. WVMJ


Erm , yes and no to that.

Honey can do all sorts of things. I don't know whether it's a high level of sugars or something else that makes honey one of natures most anti-bacterial, anti-fungal substance.

I have also read of "changes" in honey that can happen, but generally don't. Whether that any of the possible changes are actually fermentation or some other reaction of some sort (very, very old honey, having been found as offerings in the ancient Egyptian tombs, has been found to be still edible, but in appearance it was black, like molasses - that wasn't, as far as I recall, fermentation, it was oxidation of the non-sugars part of the honey) I can't say - I'm too lazy to research it that far.

KMeta or NaMeta aren't used to control bacterial presence as pretty much no bacterial will live in honey (few acceptions I believe, but main suggestion being that honey isn't fed to very young children who are still developing their immune systems). K/Na Meta is used in winemaking to help control the presence of "wild" yeasts i.e. airbourne fungus, to prevent them taking hold and developing "off flavours" and other spoilage organisms.

The use of K/Na meta in honey musts, is very "belt and braces" (IMO, over the top and unnecessary). Unless, of course, there are other ingredients that are more susceptible to such contaminants e.g. fruit elements of some sort. Then it's an entirely different matter, because as you rightly point out, once diluted, that's when honey can become susceptible too.

As you can see, despite the many things that mead makers rely on i.e. that the use of raw, unprocessed honey being the best possible material to use, there will always be some slight chance of an opposite happening/occuring (it's called "risk", hell there's a whole industry based on it, but we don't call it "the risk industry", we call it insurance).

The various procedures we adopt help negate the chances of anything that we don't want to happen, from happening. Hence, the recommendation of good hygiene practice with the kit that will come in contact with the must etc. Or the use of other materials/ingredients that have a higher chance of contamination, like fruit, being "treated" in some way to reduce the chance of the same possible problem.

Yet at the same time, there's many thousands of mead makers out there who don't bother adding K/Na Meta on the basis that there "might" be something that could contaminate a batch. Hell it's always possible, but is it "probable" ? No, it's not.

It's like when you read some of the posts over at homebrewtalk. You can often guess, within a couple of sentences, as to whether the person posting a question or comment, is a beer maker as well. They seem obsessed with a number of techniques that just aren't needed or necessary with meads (you also see this with wine making people, but to a lesser extent). They worry about opening a fermenter to take a gravity reading, yet their worry is founded on the basis that with beers, there's so much less of the natural preservative i.e. alcohol, and a higher amount of other material that is more susceptible to spoilage. They also seem to worry about oxidation a lot. Which equally, happens quicker with beer than it does with wine, and in turn happens with wine quicker than it does with mead. That's not to say it doesn't happen though - it does.

If we all understood, that two of the most damaging substances we encounter on a daily basis, are oxygen and water (especially salt water), yet we forget about them because when you say the magic "C" word (corrosive), we automatically think of strong acids and alkali's. Yet oxygen and water cause more damage on the planet than all the acids/alkali's put together, but it just happens that the damage occurs much, much more slowly. Almost imperceptibly so.

So, if you want to add K/Na Meta to your honey musts, then fine, it's up to you. 

Personally, I won't be bothering.

Even if I just make a batch from whole comb, wax and all, I'll just be breaking up the comb and then mixing it all with water and just allowing the mix to dissolve for 24 hours before skimming off the wax particles.....


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 30, 2012)

Hi FB, you are making conclusions based on what hasnt happened to you, yet. Beekeepers are very careful of the water content of their honey. Why do the bees dry it down to 18% moisture, its to keep it from fermenting, plenty of yeasts floating around in flowers dont you think? When honey crystalizes and the moisture above the crystals gets higher from the now free water even old honey can ferment. You like Egyptian honey as an example of honey not fermenting when its old - right, when its in a desert Wild yeast in honey can definitely ferment it. Take some raw honey, dilute it out like you make mead with and let it set, it will ferment, though slowly. What we do when we make mead is jam a boatload of other yeast on top of them and our yeast take over and run the show. This happens most of the time and a good fermentation from our selected yeasts makes a nice mead. I always plan on nipping potential problems in the arse before they show themselves. A pinch of KM, not likes its hard to add, doesnt affect our hardy yeasts, a wee bit of insurance, honey can be expensive and if saving a batch means taking a minute to drop in some KM why not. Also something people dont think about, bees dont care where they get their water, a bird batch, a dog dish, a nasty little pool beside some cow pie. They walk all over the honey all day, every day, with wet little feet.  Also, the pollen stored in the hive as beebread is fermented, some yeast and some bacteria. Bees also get diahrea, viruses, they are out there free running around in the wild after all.

So when people post about their mead smelling funny, we assume its always from some outside contamination, like they dont wash their stirring spoon, but it could just as easily be from properly prepared honey also.

WVMJ


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 30, 2012)

> Bees also get diahrea, viruses,



Wonderful, bee squirts mead.....LMAO!!!


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## fatbloke (Dec 30, 2012)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Hi FB, you are making conclusions based on what hasnt happened to you, yet. Beekeepers are very careful of the water content of their honey. Why do the bees dry it down to 18% moisture, its to keep it from fermenting, plenty of yeasts floating around in flowers dont you think? When honey crystalizes and the moisture above the crystals gets higher from the now free water even old honey can ferment. You like Egyptian honey as an example of honey not fermenting when its old - right, when its in a desert Wild yeast in honey can definitely ferment it. Take some raw honey, dilute it out like you make mead with and let it set, it will ferment, though slowly. What we do when we make mead is jam a boatload of other yeast on top of them and our yeast take over and run the show. This happens most of the time and a good fermentation from our selected yeasts makes a nice mead. I always plan on nipping potential problems in the arse before they show themselves. A pinch of KM, not likes its hard to add, doesnt affect our hardy yeasts, a wee bit of insurance, honey can be expensive and if saving a batch means taking a minute to drop in some KM why not. Also something people dont think about, bees dont care where they get their water, a bird batch, a dog dish, a nasty little pool beside some cow pie. They walk all over the honey all day, every day, with wet little feet.  Also, the pollen stored in the hive as beebread is fermented, some yeast and some bacteria. Bees also get diahrea, viruses, they are out there free running around in the wild after all.
> 
> So when people post about their mead smelling funny, we assume its always from some outside contamination, like they dont wash their stirring spoon, but it could just as easily be from properly prepared honey also.
> 
> WVMJ


Hum ? I don't quite follow your point.

I've just re-read my earlier post to see if I was being ambiguous. I don't believe I was (but am happy to concede that text isn't always the best way of conveying a point).

Some of what you allude to, is outside my level of knowledge. I didn't keep the bees, my father did that, for about 35 years. I don't recall him ever having a problem with any honey spontaneously fermenting. Whether that's a climactic or topographical thing I don't know.

I've only heard mention of it a couple of time in the 8 or 9 years I've been making meads.

I don't dispute the probable presence of wild yeasts being found in hives or in the actual honey, though whether they'd be hazardous to either the honey or people, I don't know. Mycology isn't one of my things, outside mead and country wine making of course.

I was just trying to explain that I don't sulphite my honey. It seems to be an additional step that isn't necessary. I've certainly never heard of any of the mead making "great and good" doing that. If you feel it's beneficial to your brews or stocks of honey, that's great. Go with what you find works for you.

In the meantime, I'll just carry on as I am, but I will remember to wear my "tin hat" when I go outside, just in case the sky falls on my head....

Anyway, that aside, whats with the "new" username ? I thought you were registered everywhere with the old one ? Or is it just a "rebranding" exercise ?


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## fatbloke (Dec 30, 2012)

Pumpkinman said:


> Wonderful, bee squirts mead.....LMAO!!!


or given how the bees process the nectar into honey, maybe "bee puke wine" would be more accurate


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 30, 2012)

lmfao!!!!!!


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 30, 2012)

Couldnt be worse than Skeeter Pee or Dragons Blood  WVMJ



Pumpkinman said:


> Wonderful, bee squirts mead.....LMAO!!!


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 30, 2012)

FB, pretty much my point is there are wild yeast in raw unfiltered unpasteurized natural organic pure wholesome honey that can ferment it by themselves once the moisture gets higher than 20% (I round off to make it easier). We have high humidity in our part of the world and the beekeepers are very keen on knowing what the moisture levels are before they harvest so that it doesnt ferment. Most people dont care and just pitch their yeast which is fine, you overwhelm the weaker yeasts in the honey with a massive army of our winemaking yeast and all is well. Do you test the moisture level of your honey before you use it to make sure it is at the safe moisture level? Of course not, you just bring a jar home, warm it in the kitchen and dump it into a big bucket. Do you taste your honey before you make each batch to make sure its ok and doesnt have any off flavors that might have gotten there because it fermented a little? I am just very careful, honey is expensive and I like to make 5 gallon batches of everything in case it turns out goodKM is cheap compared to honey, it only takes a flick of the wrist to measure out a quarter of a teaspoon and stir it in, its like the smallest step you can do, less work than opening the bottle your honey came in 

Did you get to work the bees with your dad?

WVMJ


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## fatbloke (Dec 31, 2012)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> FB, pretty much my point is there are wild yeast in raw unfiltered unpasteurized natural organic pure wholesome honey that can ferment it by themselves once the moisture gets higher than 20% (I round off to make it easier). We have high humidity in our part of the world and the beekeepers are very keen on knowing what the moisture levels are before they harvest so that it doesnt ferment. Most people dont care and just pitch their yeast which is fine, you overwhelm the weaker yeasts in the honey with a massive army of our winemaking yeast and all is well. Do you test the moisture level of your honey before you use it to make sure it is at the safe moisture level? Of course not, you just bring a jar home, warm it in the kitchen and dump it into a big bucket. Do you taste your honey before you make each batch to make sure its ok and doesnt have any off flavors that might have gotten there because it fermented a little? I am just very careful, honey is expensive and I like to make 5 gallon batches of everything in case it turns out goodKM is cheap compared to honey, it only takes a flick of the wrist to measure out a quarter of a teaspoon and stir it in, its like the smallest step you can do, less work than opening the bottle your honey came in
> 
> Did you get to work the bees with your dad?
> 
> WVMJ


Ah, yes, I already worked out that it might be more of a localised issue, the moisture content and all that.

I can see that you find it best to do this for that very reason - though I'm unsure whether the thing about moisture content is just "good housekeeping" or whether there's some statutory FDA requirement.

The regulatory requirements here are national and EU wide. Honey doesn't require use by date codes and when Dad was still keeping his bees (he only stopped because of age, and a particularly bad year where he lost about 20 colonies out of 40 to Varroa - despite using those "strips".......bayvarol I think they were called, plus the regulatory requirement for moving his hives from one part of the country to another) there wasn't any requirement to declare sugar content. It just had to be pure and unadulterated (usual labelling requirement is something pretty to declare it's pure honey - regional accreditation was optional as was the "type" (variety) of honey, but you had to label the producers name and address).

The biggest joke is that I didn't start mead making until after he'd got rid of the hives etc (about 10 years ago).

Just thinking as well, the climate thing you mention, well it's also likely that it's not a problem here because of the differing flora locally i.e. completely different wild yeast for climate reasons.

Like the bread mould sometimes found, would be different here than what you'd experience with that loaf that you haven't finished etc...

Lets face it, even the elderberry here is different, not vastly, but it is slightly different variations of the same thing.....

As for working with the bees ? yes, some, but I liked working with the honey more i.e. extractions, filtration, etc. We used to do quite well with 1lb blocks of wax too. It was Dad who liked too study the bees etc - it would have been great if he hadn't sold his microscope....that was a toy and a half.......


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks again for the input guys.
I was very surprised at the powerful honey aroma when I opened the 5 gallon bucket...Wheeeeew!
It smelled a lot less over powering as I gently heated it up to get it from crystallized to a liquid format for the Melomel
I did taste it before using it, it is amazing, and I am not and have never been a major fan of Honey, as a matter of fact, I can probably count on one hand how many times I've tasted honey before starting to make this Melomel.
The honey really makes a world of difference, much better body, mouth feel and it stays with you longer, not to mention the flavor that it brings to the melomel.
I'm almost thinking about adding a little to the Red ale fermenting bucket, I'm a fan of Honey Ale type beer, but this is way above my comprehension level for beer.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 31, 2012)

Dont forget to save out like a quart to backsweeten it with if you like that, it really boosts the honey presence in a Melomel. I wish I had my bee and honey education a decade ago, then I would be trying some of my 10 year old meads right now  WVMJ


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 1, 2013)

I have about 10-12 lbs left, they gave me 32 lbs.


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## fatbloke (Jan 1, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> I have about 10-12 lbs left, they gave me 32 lbs.


Excellent. Enough for a 3 gallon batch or 3 x 1 gallon batches.....different fruit ? different yeasts as traditionals ?

It won't go off. If it crystalises? big deal...... just weigh out what you need and top up with water, leave it a day or so and blitz the hell out of it with a stick blender and its ready for fermenting/testing/adding fruit/wwhatever....


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 1, 2013)

Yep, My goal is to make a smaller batch of something like tropical fruit, I'm wondering if that blend of fruit would compliment the honey as well as a Strawberry, Raspberry, Blueberry, Blackberry blend. I really don't want to make traditional country or fruit wines with granulated white sugar anymore, the difference it very much noticeable, more body, mouth feel, taste, and so on.
As far as getting it into a more workable form, I will put a seedling heat mat around the bucket and slowly heat it at 74° over the course of a day or so, but I'll weigh the bucket to see exactly how much I have left, minus the weight of the bucket, which should weigh approx 2 lbs with the lid.


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## fatbloke (Jan 1, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> -----snip-----
> As far as getting it into a more workable form, I will put a seedling heat mat around the bucket and slowly heat it at 74° over the course of a day or so, but I'll weigh the bucket to see exactly how much I have left, minus the weight of the bucket, which should weigh approx 2 lbs with the lid.


See, if some of my honey crystalises, honey being hygroscopic, just sort of "melts" if steeped in water.

I know that between 3 and 3.5lb per gallon is my usual mix, so I just weigh it out on the scales, then chuck it in my brewing bucket and leave it for a day or two (air locked so none of the airbourne nasties can get it). Then I just open it up, blitz it with the electric whisk or stick blender, then take a sample and test.

If it's lower than I'm aiming for, I just scoop a bit more honey into the liquidiser, add a bit of the other must and blitz with that, then stir it into the bucket. Then sample and test again.

I don't get hung up with numbers so much any more, as long as it measures to be somewhere near what I'm aiming for, that's fine........

If you want to warm it with a brew belt or similar, it should be Ok I'd have thought. I just like to not heat my honey if I don't have to.....


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 1, 2013)

Thanks for the tip!


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