# fighting WINE SNOB haters



## jdmyers (Dec 29, 2013)

I was at a recent xmas gathering. This guy was going on and on about a wine party that he has were everyone brings a bottle of wine and tells a story about were its from and its origins and such. then they all taste and share. I thought great sign me up but when he heard i would be bringing my own wine he pretty much dismissed me as a know nothing hick. and ounce i said i made wine out of many things not just grapes well that sealed it I was officially a piece of white trash crap. I wanted to smash him over the head with his own overpriced crappy wine but instead i took the high road. I when to my house and brought back about 5 gallons of dragon blood. in about 1/2 hour the entire party was converted even the beer drinkers became wine people. several people offered to fund my next batches or purchase all that I could supply. Taste buds don't lie good wine is good no matter if it comes from the south of france or a basement in pittsburgh


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## Runningwolf (Dec 29, 2013)

JD home winemakers get a bad rap for good reasons. In the past there has been so much bad wine made at home and there still is. I also use to have wine parties in the past and I was also a wine snob. I sent out invitations and right on the invitation it said "No Commercial Wine". Home winemakers have come a long ways, especially with forums like this around. I think a great deal of us on this forum have made believers out of those who doubted home made wine in the past.

Now I'll let you on on another little discovery. There is also a lot of "bad" commercial wine on the market.


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 29, 2013)

I was officially a piece of white trash crap....been there done it.
I love tricking the wine snobs....Just happened the other day...someone brought over a wine, and boasted about paying 20 bucks for this fine wine...it tasted like crap to me...while he was in the bathroom i opened and poured one of my peach blush bottles...and told him to try it..
He said it was very good, but would not pay more then 20 bucks for it.
I said good, because i made it, and my cost is about 1.90.....lol


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 29, 2013)

Runningwolf, I have a lliquor store that I patron all the time. There must be 5 to 6 thousand bottles of wine....How in the world could anyone really pick one ....amazing to me....the owner is a friend of mine...He said that 90 percent of the wine buyers have not tasted the wine they buy..
He stated usually if its a wine someone has bought and liked, they buy 2 are 3 each time.
For what its worth.


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## jdmyers (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah It does amaze me that people taste buds are effected by the price tag its like they feel like they have to like it if its more $$


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## Julie (Dec 29, 2013)

JD, I'll be sending you a pm next spring/summer when I have my next wine party. Bring your wines to drink, bring your wines to trade. There are a handful of us on here that try to get together a couple times a year. 

And I am glad you didn't let them discourage you into going and getting your wines to share with them.


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## NoSnob (Dec 29, 2013)

Good for you JD! Nothing succeeds like success.

My friends all seem to like my wine. I have never made claims that it is good, great, or indifferent. I just let them decide. Same for classes I have taught in home winemaking. I describe the varietal, its source and age and let them experience it for themselves. It sometimes comes as a surprise to me that occasionally they greatly like wine that I am not particularly fond of. And wine that I really like is not necessarily their preference. I believe our taste buds (and our capabilities in expressing what we taste) vary from person to person.

Maybe more importantly, we all come to the tasting table with widely varying background and experience in what we prefer and what we are familiar with. Then too, let's face it, the enjoyment of wine is highly dependent upon its context. If you want people to like your wine, be sure it's served in a fun atmosphere with no pressure to like anything you serve. For example, I might say this is a very full-bodied red and I know you prefer something milder, but try it and see what you think. 

I like for my friends to be able to try my wine as a learning experience. Sometimes my initial pour is very small to get their reaction. I tell them they don't have to like my wine. That takes a lot of pressure off. The other substantial variable is what appetizers or food is served with it: makes a huge difference!

IMO it all adds up to this: we are our own experts about what we like. 

NS Here


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 29, 2013)

Well said....The other substantial variable is what appetizers or food is served with it: makes a huge difference!
THats why i make a lot of dragon blood, its good after cutting grass, are hanging at the pool, are a backyard bbq....no qualms, no pairing, just drinking.


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## dangerdave (Dec 29, 2013)

I love Dragon Blood conversion stories. Nice job, jd!


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## digitaleye (Dec 29, 2013)

Very cool stories! For me, I live in a well known wine-making region and you can easily go into just about any supermatket (let alone wine store) and find a very decent bottle for $20 or less. That sets the bar fairly high for home wine making.. but hey that makes us create better wine


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## dangerdave (Dec 29, 2013)

I need to make a new label for my next batch of Dragon Blood, and call it "SNOB REMOVER".


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## Runningwolf (Dec 29, 2013)

dangerdave said:


> I need to make a new label for my next batch of Dragon Blood, and call it "SNOB REMOVER".


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## dangerdave (Dec 29, 2013)

I see potential, Dan!


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## BernardSmith (Dec 30, 2013)

Always the contrarian, here's my 1.5 cents worth: Of course there are wine snobs just as there are people who turn their nose up at anything from ski shoes to rappers, and from porn to popcorn but just like some movies are crap and some novels are garbage and some prime time TV is rubbish some movies, novels and prime time TV are great. That some folk love the garbage and cannot get enough of it says nothing about the quality that can be and is sometimes produced. That some folk are disinterested in nuance and prefer simple brush strokes says nothing about the rich prize of the more complex. 
That some folk reject garbage for what it is is one thing. That some folk reject some things as garbage because of what they ASSUME it to be is quite another. Being able to see or find the pattern or picture in the chaos of the background noise is what differentiates the expert from the novice. The novice holds up the chaff as the picture. The expert is able to find the picture buried in the chaff. The expert can help you see the picture that you mistook for chaff and can show you why the chaff is not the real thing. If you still prefer the chaff after that then that is your business. 
There is snobbery that puffs itself up as expertise and then there is the child who sees that the emperor is stark naked, but there is also the emperor who is dressed in exquisite robes. There is , in other words, an expertise that punctures snobbery. Just because self-proclaimed experts tend to be butt naked does not mean that those viewed as experts by their peers are also dressed only in their birthday suits...


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## GreginND (Dec 30, 2013)

Just wondering why one would fight wine snob haters.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2013)

This is one of the reasons that I no longer enter wine competitions. Personally, I don't care what "experts" think of my wine because my family, friends and I like it. To me, it is a matter of taste and that differs widely from person to person. My question is, If an "expert" says a wine is great and I don't like it, is it great? I would say, "Not to me." Conversely, if I like one of my wines and an "expert" says it is crap, should I stop making it? Again, I say "No!"

I am always a little skeptical when it comes to "experts." I recall some years ago that some "art experts" or "critics" were shown a number of "modern art" paintings by anonymous artists. The experts came up with a variety of descriptions of the intent of the artist, what was in his or her mind when he or she did the painting, the troubled life that they had experienced, the subtle message displayed in the art, etc. After their assessment, they were shown a video of the artist completing the paintings. It was a group of monkeys, literally throwing paint at the canvases.


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## Turock (Dec 30, 2013)

This is the main reason why all of us make our own wine---because you can make better wine than you can buy!! A GOOD home winemaker will always produce something better than what can be bought in a store.

Imagine a commercial winery making an all juice fruit wine--they'd have to charge $50.00 for it!!

Around here, many people have had our wines because we've been doing it for so long. And you'd be amazed how many people call and come to the door at the holidays to get some of our wine for parties and to give away to their friends for gifts!! I think that's a testimony to all home winemakers.


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## Elmer (Dec 30, 2013)

"contempt prior to investigation"

Anyone with a pallet for wine, will try anything, and judge that wine on its content.
Anyone who only drinks something with a specific price tag is pretentious!

There is good wine at varying prices!
There is whiskey at $100 does not mean it is better than $14 bird dog!!!!

I just handed out some SP, DB and cheap kit Cab Franc to some distant family members who usually drink $50 bottles of Cab and $70 scotch.

They love what I make, because it is a break from the norm.

You cant watch an oscar worthy flick every night.
Sometimes you have to watch a pop corn flick!


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## BernardSmith (Dec 30, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Just wondering why one would fight wine snob haters.



Because snobbery is puffed up ignorance. You don't hate it.. You deflate it. And if you have the inclination and/or the time, you educate the snob.


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## JohnT (Dec 30, 2013)

This is where you went wrong, You should only say that it is home-made AFTER they taste it. 

We had a church thing called "gathering group". This is where we took turns hosting dinner for one another. I was asked to bring some wine. 

Well, I am not a big believer in labels. They always seem more trouble than they are worth. So the bottles I brought had no labels on them. 

I remember watching this one guy who could talk a good game when it cam to wine. He was definitely a wine snob (and this coming from me!) 
He took a sip, smiled, then went to look a the label on the bottle. All I said to him was "don't you just hate when the labels fall off"? He had no idea.


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## roger80465 (Dec 30, 2013)

*Expert*

Here's the definition.

EXPERT: a former drip under pressure.

You're welcome.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 30, 2013)

jdmyers said:


> Yeah It does amaze me that people taste buds are effected by the price tag its like they feel like they have to like it if its more $$



It may be amazing, but it seems to be a near-universal trait that people's actual reported enjoyment is affected by their perception of how enjoyable an experience SHOULD be. In the wine world, labeling and pricing are two of the cues that prime our expectations.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 30, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Just wondering why one would fight wine snob haters.





BernardSmith said:


> Because snobbery is puffed up ignorance. You don't hate it.. You deflate it. And if you have the inclination and/or the time, you educate the snob.



I know that both of you are highly intelligent. I believe that Greg was riffing on the ambiguity in the phrase "wine snob hater." Does it refer to someone who hates wine snobs (in which case the phrase should have been "wine-snob hater") or does it refer to people who could be described as both wine snobs AND "haters" (in the current patois the kewl kidz use).

In any event, Bernard, I find, as usual, your insightful comment quite incisive. I would not have had that realization on my own accord.


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## BernardSmith (Dec 30, 2013)

sour_grapes said:


> It may be amazing, but it seems to be a near-universal trait that people's actual reported enjoyment is affected by their perception of how enjoyable an experience SHOULD be. In the wine world, labeling and pricing are two of the cues that prime our expectations.



I am a sociologist, not a psychologist but "priming" does seem to play an important role in how we respond to many things. And price and scarcity - as when a store limits the number of boxes you can buy to ONLY five (and you would not even have thought to buy even one had they not set a limit on the number you could buy) seem to make items more precious and desirable if not more tasty... But that said, there does seem to be some real questions raised by psychologists about the absolute power of "priming". Experiments by folk like Bargh who recently showed that young people tended to walk more slowly after hearing or reading words that evoked old age and the elderly have not been successfully replicated using instruments that are more blind to the ones performing the experiment. (His research assistants used stop watches to measure the time it took subjects to walk a certain distance before and after they were tested. Those trying to replicate the data used instruments that did not require the assistants to press any buttons or switches). A lack of replicable data raises all kinds of questions about the validity of the original research. But that said, priming seems to be at play here too - We might dismiss commercially made wine simply because it was made by a professional wine maker... but commercially made wine is not the same as what passes for commercially made beer (so bad that it has to be drunk chilled so you can't in fact taste it). My sense is we try to replicate the quality of good wines. Home brewers try to make real ale... and the large commercial brewers try their hardest to pretend that they are micro- breweries and their beer is hand crafted. I am not sure that quality wine makers pretend that they make their wines in the kitchen or basement...


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## GreginND (Dec 31, 2013)

BernardSmith said:


> Because snobbery is puffed up ignorance. You don't hate it.. You deflate it. And if you have the inclination and/or the time, you educate the snob.




I agree but I still don't understand why one would fight the snob haters. Perhaps there was sme needed punctuation missing from the OP title?


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 31, 2013)

wine snobbery was not....when noah replanted the grape vines, and the world populated again they would have open air markets and most sold wine at the same price, until.
a smart jewish man raised the price of his wine, proclaiming it to be better because it was grown in small cool valley.
the following week all merchants had raised prices somewhat, and all claiming the wine better becasue it was from a hotter climate, a different color, sweeter grape, larger grape,smaller grape, etc.
snobbery no...marketing yes....still in existence..


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## BernardSmith (Dec 31, 2013)

The one who raised the price of wine was not "a smart Jewish man". She was a Greek Cypriot.


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## Paulc (Dec 31, 2013)

Interesting comments all, absolutely marketing is critical for "good" anything.

That being said, a velvet elvis is "art" but I wouldn't want see one displayed along side a Monet or the David. Art is art, but not all art is equal. Same as wine.

If you made your wine, you're happy with it and enjoy drinking it then hell with the "wine snobs". Why are you/we worrying about what some jerk thinks about wine?
Paul


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## jdmyers (Dec 31, 2013)

*correction*



GreginND said:


> I agree but I still don't understand why one would fight the snob haters. Perhaps there was sme needed punctuation missing from the OP title?



they are wine snobs AND haters
While I greatly appreciate all of the wine knowledge and lessons I receive from this web site. I never thought I would be getting English lessons also, thanks


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## kevinlfifer (Dec 31, 2013)

Who cares what they "wine snobs" think, say or drink or why they behave in that manner. This is our passion to share with those whom we care about and love.


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## GreginND (Dec 31, 2013)

jdmyers said:


> they are wine snobs AND haters
> While I greatly appreciate all of the wine knowledge and lessons I receive from this web site. I never thought I would be getting English lessons also, thanks



Sorry, didn't mean to offend you with my poor attempt at dry humor. My apologies.


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## Gwand (Dec 31, 2013)

The best way to bring down the wine snob is through blind tastings. Although there are a few tasting savants out there most of us are average tasters. I have seen many a wine snob brought to their knees in blind tastings when they picked the $10 bottle of wine over the $50 bottle of wine. We like what we like and it may not even be possible for us to describe the wine's characteristics in detail. And that is just fine. 

Also as previously said pairing with food is so important to bringing out the best qualities in a wine. I do not particularly enjoy drinking big red wines without having a great meal at the same time. To me they are not meant to be served as a cocktail. Likewise I find Jamie, intense fruit forward wines not to go very well with many foods. These wines I do enjoy drinking without food accompaniment. These are just my own taste idiosyncrasies. Everybody should develop their own preferences and never be embarrassed by it. Wine is meant to be fun, make us happy and love the people around us.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 31, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to offend you with my poor attempt at dry humor.



Yeah, maybe off-dry would have been better. One method is to let the joke run until dry, and then to back-funny. However, it is usually much, MUCH more humorous to interrupt the joke before completion with copious amounts of brandy.


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## Jericurl (Dec 31, 2013)

Manthing's parents got me a giftcard to the local winery.

We were talking about when we might go and Manthing asked me if I was going to tell them I made my own wine. I said no and he asked why not.
I told him because I didn't want them to look down their noses at me or try to make me feel bad.
Now...Manthing is a very quiet unassuming man, but he is 6ft 2 and does have red hair.
Boy did he ever get heated up over that!
He was quite indignant and told me he was certain that my wine was just as good as any crap they want to set out. He also pointed out that he is not a wine drinker but he will actually drink *my* wine, therefore that makes it better in his book.

I love that man.


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 31, 2013)

jericurl, you are probably right about them looking down there noses at you, after all...if we all made wine, there wouldnt be so many wineries.
another thing....you have to remember that grape wine has been around for 25,000 years, some where along the line, they were more terrible then good...
fruit wine is an up and coming thing...
I have all ready have about 5 people making there own, after they found out how easy it was...and there making it like they want...and from what fruit they like...beside grapes'
what is ironic is that most of the wine snobs...think that wine can not be made out of anything but grapes, so they are all ready stupid.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 31, 2013)

Jericurl, most winemakers figure out you make wine based on the question you might ask them. Things like how much did you backsweeten this to? Did you do an MLF on this red wine?

You certainly know more than most so called wins snoobs. The few owners I know of commercial windrows love to talk tech stuff.


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## Stressbaby (Jan 1, 2014)

Jeri, I wouldn't worry about it. My (somewhat limited) experience has mirrored cmason - if you get past the 21 year old pouring the glasses and you are able to meet the winemaker, they LOVE to talk to home winemakers about their wines, grapes, and techniques. They don't really want to hear about your wine however, so be ready to listen. But the ones I've met have been more than willing to share.


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## DaveL (Jan 1, 2014)

Jericurl said:


> Manthing's parents got me a giftcard to the local winery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have found in central Virginia most wineries will readily discuss home wine making and offer great amounts of advice. Probably because the industry is so relatively young here that most of them can remember being in my shoes.


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## DaveL (Jan 1, 2014)

cmason1957 said:


> Jericurl, most winemakers figure out you make wine based on the question you might ask them. Things like how much did you backsweeten this to? Did you do an MLF on this red wine?
> 
> You certainly know more than most so called wins snoobs. The few owners I know of commercial windrows love to talk tech stuff.



It is funny in the first 2 months of making wine I knew more about wine than %90 of so called wine snobs. For all the talk of "wisps of cherry, chocolate, and smoky flavors" they could no more tell you why or how these flavors came about than one of the monkey that were painting master pieces above.


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## JohnT (Jan 2, 2014)

kevinlfifer said:


> Who cares what they "wine snobs" think, say or drink or why they behave in that manner. This is our passion to share with those whom we care about and love.


 

<Sniff>. You guys are just being mean. <sniff, sob> Wine snobs need love too! 



Jeri, 

most winemakers (not snobs) do not have a attitude when it comes to home winemakers. I have learned a great deal from them and have always seemed to get answers to my "I make a little wine at home and I was just wondering" questions.

. When you tour a winery and find someone who actually plays a part in making wine (and not some 18 year old tour guide) go ahead and ask questions. The only thing you need to be careful of it to not cop an attitude with him.


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 2, 2014)

I will admit, I was never a wine drinker at all,never even bought much except when I was having quest over, and even then I had no idea how to buy one, other then white wines with fish/pork, and a red with wild game are red meat...That was the extend of my wine knowledge.
I had no idea that wine was made from anything other then grapes, and fruit wines were usually boones farm.
Thus after reading and learning to make wine,and learning the ins/outs
compounds,flavors,colors,grape types,wine types, etc.
I starting asking my so called wine conniseur friends about why they drank what they did.
I was suprised at there answers....sure enough everthing the label said, is what they said....a hint of choclate with the morning dew decending on the grass leaving a droplet of fragrant water.....lol
What the label said is what they tasted....go figure.
Now I kinda just dont pay attention to them, and when I do try one of there wines, i try my best to describe what i taste, not what i read.
most of the time, there wines are awful...some not.
But really ..i make my wine for me...if someone likes it..fine, if not, then thats ok also....some like beets, some dont.


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## BernardSmith (Jan 2, 2014)

Gwand said:


> The best way to bring down the wine snob is through blind tastings. Although there are a few tasting savants out there most of us are average tasters. I have seen many a wine snob brought to their knees in blind tastings when they picked the $10 bottle of wine over the $50 bottle of wine. We like what we like and it may not even be possible for us to describe the wine's characteristics in detail. And that is just fine.
> 
> Also as previously said pairing with food is so important to bringing out the best qualities in a wine. I do not particularly enjoy drinking big red wines without having a great meal at the same time. To me they are not meant to be served as a cocktail. Likewise I find Jamie, intense fruit forward wines not to go very well with many foods. These wines I do enjoy drinking without food accompaniment. These are just my own taste idiosyncrasies. Everybody should develop their own preferences and never be embarrassed by it. Wine is meant to be fun, make us happy and love the people around us.



But there is nothing inherently inferior about a wine if that wine is sold for $10 and nothing inherently superior about a wine that is sold for $50. Someone who really knows something about wines can highlight aspects of the flavor and color and aroma of each and can tell you why he or she PREFERS one to the other and why they have such preferences and dis-preferences (you might prefer videos of pratfalls on Youtube to the comedy of Colbert and you may be disinterested in Colbert's humor or in unpacking it) or why one is more interesting than the other. They can share this with you and help you taste and smell and see what they see. The price itself should have no bearing on this. Price may be more related to what the market can bear and how the wine is marketed than anything else... That can certainly be seen in the news story about how the (notorious, IMO ) Koch brothers' other brother was diddled out of millions of dollars for wines that were sold for their counterfeited labels than the contents of the bottles.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 2, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> I will admit, I was never a wine drinker at all,never even bought much except when I was having *quest* over [Emphasis added]



James, given some of your other posts, I don't know whether this is a wonderful Freudian slip, or just an honest, matter-of-fact statement!


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## GaDawg (Jan 2, 2014)

One of my favorite is:
"It smells like grandmas perfume making love to a rose bush" lol


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 2, 2014)

lol, i meant guest


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## Elmer (Jan 2, 2014)

This was my favorite and caused a coffee spit take!

"a hint of choclate with the morning dew decending on the grass leaving a droplet of fragrant water"


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## JohnT (Jan 2, 2014)

my favorite cam from my brother ...

"This S#@T is good".


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## sour_grapes (Jan 2, 2014)

I went on a wine tasting recently, and the descriptor included something like "scent of rain-washed stones." I told the (very nice young) guy that there was a single word for this scent, namely, petrichor. I explained the etymology, and did allow that it was a neologism, and that it sounded better their way than my way. But it was fun to talk about the blood of the gods while drinking wine at 10 AM.

This got the day off to a high-falutin' start, and our group started (well, okay, mostly _I_ started) pulling out $0.50 words when appropriate, and taking stock of the various tasting notes. At one stop, the pourer gave us an extra glass, and I thanked him for the lagniappe. He looked at me quizzically, so I explained it meant something like "bonus." He stared and said "In what language?" (Don't worry, James, I did give the Cajuns their proper credit! )


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## spaniel (Jan 3, 2014)

Snobs can certainly be frustrating, especially when their low opinion is not based on actual facts/experience.

However, one must also be cognizant that a large share of wine drinkers have never, ever had fruit wine. It really is a whole other drink to many people. I have shown up at a wine tasting party with a bottle of good commercial fruit wine and had it stared at like someone who forgot to put their clothes on before leaving the house in the morning.

Back when all I made was fruit wine, we all thought it was good but after that particular party I bought a bottle for such events. Now that I have vines and make wine, I'm confident nobody would know the difference if they couldn't see the label.


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## GreginND (Jan 3, 2014)

I love to do blind tastings with people who think they can identify any wine. You know the types as you have all talked about them on here. It is quite fun to see them pick out an $8 Spanish Grenache and claim it's a $30 bottle of something from California.


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## kevinlfifer (Jan 3, 2014)

The country club we belong to allows me to bring my own wine for an $8 corking fee. I drop it off at the bar, the wait staff then serves it at your table like it was their inventory. I love to do this at a function or fund-raiser where we have 10 seated at a table. I share it after those who drink wine, they have finished their "by the glass" wine. They almost always ask the staff for "a bottle of that." Sometimes the wait staff doesn't know better and they go off to the bar staff and ask for it. When they come back and announce that that wine is unavailable I step in to save them. I have a blast.


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## shoebiedoo (Jan 6, 2014)

GreginND said:


> I love to do blind tastings with people who think they can identify any wine. You know the types as you have all talked about them on here. It is quite fun to see them pick out an $8 Spanish Grenache and claim it's a $30 bottle of something from California.


 

I watched a documentary on becoming a Master Sommolier. It was a really fascinating show. different than the Wannabies we're talking about. I have a brother in-law who is very particular on what he drinks will will quite often open up a $100 bottle of wine. BUT to his credit, I've seen him totally BASH a $50+ bottle and RAVE over a $15 one. That, to me, is totally acceptable. And although he's enjoyed most of what I've made he is not afraid to tell me if one is "CRAP"


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## kevinlfifer (Jan 6, 2014)

I have a friend that always asks for "whats new" translated - Can I have a bottle? She will tell me if it "sucks" or not. I have figured out that "whats new" does not work, because if you give a new wine they still drink it tomorrow, no matter what you tell them. Then she says that wine wasn't very good, then I say it was for Christmas next year, then she says it still wasn't very good. Moral of the story, give no wine before it's time.


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## shoebiedoo (Jan 6, 2014)

AMEN to that Kevin.


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## dangerdave (Jan 7, 2014)

A story...

I keep a small rack of wine at my best friend's house. He and his wife are avid cheap beer drinkers, and refuse to accept that any wine could ever be called "good", so they never touch the stuff. We do have mutual friend's, though, who often stop by _his_ house to pick up a bottle of _my_ wine, since I live farther away. Strange set up, I know.

Case in point: This same best friend's sister-in-law (his wife's sister) is married to Lawrence Funderburke. Some of you may remember him from the Sacramento Kings (1999-2003) and the Chicago Bulls (2004-2005). Regardless, his lackluster NBA career made him a millionaire. Like most rich people, he hoards his money, so my friend and his wife never see a dime. Two years back, during a brief and rare holiday visit to my friend's house, the Funderburkes noticed the rack of my wines. Turns out they are rich wine snobs. My friend passed them a few bottles of my wine, stating that it was produced by a "local award winning vintner". They loved it! My friend says they regularly call back asking for more (for free, of couse), never offering to buy some (which I won't sell), or to contribute a single dime to this vintner's enterprise (which I might consider). These folks, who could afford any wine from anywhere in the world, want mine.

This Xmas, I gave my friend a single bottle of my Rosso Fortissimo to gift to the Funderburkes. He said they raved over the bottle and the label. I'm still waiting to hear if they liked the wine, and if they still want more---_for free_.


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## kevinlfifer (Jan 7, 2014)

Another semi-amusing story. This a friend who likes my wines. She had one of the few whites I have done and raved. I told her buy a kit I'll make it for you. She did, I did. I require as part of the deal a bottling/labeling dinner. As she left with her 30 bottles (quite a nice lable and bottle presentation) she offered for me to keep a bottle. I told here they're all yours I don't drink white wine.

Two weeks later I got one as a birthday gift. Talk about re-gifting!


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## Downwards (Jan 7, 2014)

I have some sympathy for both sides of this discussion. I say that because I do agree that the best wines are made from grapes. I have been convinced of that by my taste buds, YMMV. So I don't get too upset when folks chuckle a little at the idea of my fruit wines. 

On the other hand, I have also been convinced that I can make as good a fruit wine for the table (and have won a gold in the county fair for the county that makes my favorite wines) as most people can afford to buy for table wine. And much much cheaper. And like some of you, I've served a glass of oaked apple to a couple that thought fruit wine was a joke and converted them. They thought it was a white grape wine with "notes of apple". So there. Maybe it's not as complex as some other wines, but that doesn't mean it is low class. I don't always want complex, and I don't always want wine to be the big star at a meal. And sometimes I don't want to spend $15 for a bottle either. Sometimes it's just a matter of scale- I can get a better wine for that price, but usually not 15 times better, lol. 

Personally, my biggest pet peeve is the snobbery against anything even slightly sweet whether grape or fruit. Folks act like it's super low class like everything with some sugar is for keeping warm while you sleep in a bush. And some of them don't even realize how much sweetness is present in wines they think are dry just because it's covered up. Drives me nuts..


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## jswordy (Jan 7, 2014)

Come on, though, let's be honest about the definition of "wine snob": Someone who thinks what I've made is rotgut. 

I've made dry wines, I've made semi-sweets, and I've made sweet wines, out of fruit and out of grapes and out of fruit-grape blends and out of grape-grape blends. Not all have been great, some may not have even been good, but all have been great experiments and learning processes.

I could make just 3 wines a year and be happy, and am seriously considering adopting that practice once my backlog of ingredients runs out. The stuff my wife and I generally like best is sweet grape-based wines. They are drinker's wines made to stand alone. I like to make my grape wines out of American grapes, not foreign invaders. All that together - sweet, drinker's wine, non-European - brings out the howling snobbery among the effete like nothing else short of a Welch's concord can.

Once, unknown to me until later, a friend grabbed a bottle of apple wine I'd made and took it to a high-class wine and cheese party in the nearby big city. I'd labeled it all up and everything, and she said that bottle was the first drained and people were clamoring for more while other expensive wines were left standing. Who brought it? Was there another bottle available? Where could one buy it? She had herself a time!

I say let the effete snob away and thus remove themselves from considering my wines. More for me!


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## Downwards (Jan 7, 2014)

Hah, that's a great definition!


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## GaDawg (Jan 7, 2014)

jswordy said:


> Come on, though, let's be honest about the definition of "wine snob": Someone who thinks what I've made is rotgut.



Does that make me a "wine snob" I have made wine I thought was rotgut


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## Dino466 (Jan 7, 2014)

I make wine from kits. And hand out around 10 to 12 bottles each (all varies types) to my brothers and sister (6 in total) for Christmas. This is the third year I have done it. First year you could see the look in theirs eyes - oh no 12 bottles of crappy wine. No they are not big wine drinkers and since I am the youngest - there is no way I could make anything good. I will admit the first maybe not all 12 were good. The next year - mainly because of this forum and buying better kits - I think the quality of my wine went up. Even still they were almost glad to get the goody basket last year. This year - man they were almost standing in line for it. My 2 sister - again not big wine drinkers - called each to see if I was making wine and if the other had gotten any yet. They live a couple of hours away from me and I did not get them their baskets until well after Christmas. One sister brings it to all the dinner parties and parties she is invited too (and their are some snobs there) she says she rarely gets a glass because her friends are on the bottle right away. I made a chocolate Port - she barely had a glass and one her more uppity friends grabbed the bottle and would not let it go.
My other sister always has a college reunion of 6 of the closest friends every year. She takes a few bottles with her and she said all of them look forward to it. 
This year when I dropped it off to one of my brothers house. My sister got so excited she kissed my on the cheek ( and we are not a touchy feely family - so if you get the OK from anyone of them it must be good)
All of them have told me they really enjoy it - and I almost always make a different type or brand. 
I am no means a very good wine maker - I do it because I like it and I like what I make. And most people like a good homemade wine, they may not admit it.


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## dangerdave (Jan 7, 2014)

Very true, Dino. I've made wine for two Xmas's now. This year, prior to our family gathering, my brother---this past year's host---asked if I was bringing wine. After the gathering, my sister texted me, "Thanx for making the family gatherings more tolerable!" LOL!

The wine helps!


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## JohnT (Jan 8, 2014)

Dino466 said:


> I am no means a very good wine maker - I do it because I like it and I like what I make. And most people like a good homemade wine, they may not admit it.


 
It seems that there are some that would disagree. If you successfully make what you like, even if it is (_glup_) welches, you are a good winemaker.


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## jswordy (Jan 8, 2014)

JohnT said:


> It seems that there are some that would disagree. If you successfully make what you like, even if it is (_glup_) welches, you are a good winemaker.



Wow, I know how hard to was for you to say that, John!


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## Deezil (Jan 8, 2014)

jswordy said:


> Wow, I know how hard to was for you to say that, John!



I thought about quoting John for my signature, but thought that might be a bit much for the boy


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## JohnT (Jan 9, 2014)

jswordy said:


> Wow, I know how hard to was for you to say that, John!


 

Yes, I am so glad that I was sitting when I typed it.


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## jswordy (Jan 9, 2014)

That's why you, ummm, might have noticed my sig?


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## sour_grapes (Jan 9, 2014)

If you emended his "glup" to "gulp," couldn't you also emend his "Welches" to "Welch's"?


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## JohnT (Jan 9, 2014)

Hey, That's a fine signature! 

I would also like you to add... 

"After all, one needs that perfect wine to go with a peanut butter sandwich" 

... to the end of it.


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## JohnT (Jan 9, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> If you emended his "glup" to "gulp," couldn't you also emend his "Welches" to "Welch's"?


 
SG, 

I em sew glad eye learnt how to spel. 

johnT.


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## wineforfun (Jan 9, 2014)

JohnT said:


> It seems that there are some that would disagree. If you successfully make what you like, even if it is (_glup_) welches, you are a good winemaker.



Did someone hack JohnT's account? There is NO way he just said that.


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## JohnT (Jan 9, 2014)

et tu wine4fun????


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 9, 2014)

johnT...u going make sg go nuts with that comment, he will go back and check every post he has ever made..rolfmao


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## sour_grapes (Jan 9, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> johnT...u going make sg go nuts with that comment, he will go back and check every post he has ever made..rolfmao



Huh? Je ne comprende pas.

This will surprise perhaps no one, but I really like Jericurl's signature.

Hey, who says I DON'T check my old posts? Once, I was reading an old post of mine, and I gasped as I realized I had used a "greengrocer's apostrophe."  Yikes! Needless to say, I edited it.


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## JohnT (Jan 10, 2014)

jswordy said:


> Wow, I know how hard to was for you to say that, John!


 



sour_grapes said:


> If you emended his "glup" to "gulp," couldn't you also emend his "Welches" to "Welch's"?


 

<sigh>. 

This is the price I pay for encouraging others. Shame on both of you. I feel slighted. I think the two of you need to send me wine until you have been forgiven! 

*Julie... They're being mean to me. Perhaps some time in the corner for good measure????*


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## sour_grapes (Jan 10, 2014)

JohnT said:


> <sigh>.
> 
> This is the price I pay for encouraging others. Shame on both of you. I feel slighted. I think the two of you need to send me wine until you have been forgiven!



Ummm, you do understand what kind of wine that request will elicit, right? 

In all seriousness, it was indeed big of you to make that concession about Welch's wine being, you know, wine and all. 

For the record, I have not had Welch's wine yet, so I am not in the pro- or anti- camp yet. However, I recently did have some Concord (or was it Catawba?) wine that I could not finish.


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## JohnT (Jan 10, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Ummm, you do understand what kind of wine that request will elicit, right?


 
Well, I am just banking on a good act of contrition and he will send some of his best.



sour_grapes said:


> In all seriousness, it was indeed big of you to make that concession about Welch's wine being, you know, wine and all.


 
ROTFLMAO. You mean I might get a reputation as a nice guy??



sour_grapes said:


> For the record, I have not had Welch's wine yet, so I am not in the pro- or anti- *camp* yet. However, I recently did have some Concord (or was it Catawba?) wine that I could not finish.


 
Camp? You hear that folks... I have a camp!!!! I am not alone! (tearing up now)

Seriously, we had an old winery called "Four Sisters". They put concord in all of their reds. They even added it to their Pinot. The stuff made me want to puke it was so bad. Not surprisingly, the winery went out of business about 3 months later. They were big when they were the only game in town, but since a number of more serious wineries opened up, their business did a nose dive.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 10, 2014)

Oh, dear lord. Here is something that Wikipedia has to say about Concord grapes:


> Non-toxic sprays that contain methyl anthranilate, the smelly part of the Concord grape, can be sprayed on the bushes as a cost-effective bird control management. The spray repellent renders the fruit and foliage unpalatable to the birds.


 And here is the journal article backing this up, which goes on to say that this grape flavor agent deters birds (as noted) and also rodents.

Jeez, if rats and birds won't eat it.....


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## dangerdave (Jan 10, 2014)

Dang! I just made a batch of concord grape wine out of real concord grapes...but I refuse to spritz it on my trees! It's pretty good, IMO.

So, is wine made from _real_ concord grapes---instead of Welch's juice---acceptable, or should I fire up my sprayer?


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 10, 2014)

I agree with dave, I made some last year from concords and its not bad at all...I have had much much worst store bought 20 dollar wines, that were name brand and from a notable grape...
But....i did not like calf fries but love steak...


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## jensmith (Jan 10, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> I agree with dave, I made some last year from concords and its not bad at all...I have had much much worst store bought 20 dollar wines, that were name brand and from a notable grape...
> But....i did not like calf fries but love steak...



What are "calf fries"? I know what a steak is and I know what french fries are, is this some sort of fried veal?


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## cmason1957 (Jan 10, 2014)

Rocky mountain oysters are another name. Never got hungry enough to try that.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 11, 2014)

cmason1957 said:


> Rocky mountain oysters are another name. Never got hungry enough to try that.



I totally agree ^^^^^ !!!!!


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## vernsgal (Jan 11, 2014)

cmason1957 said:


> Rocky mountain oysters are another name. Never got hungry enough to try that.



OMG had to google that


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## vernsgal (Jan 11, 2014)

and how did it go from John actually using welches and wine in the same sentence to that!? I must have missed something, lol


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## jensmith (Jan 11, 2014)

cmason1957 said:


> Rocky mountain oysters are another name. Never got hungry enough to try that.



Thanks!! 
I've salted a set and mailed them to my unckle. He loved them! ( we have a very weird family when it comes to guift giving...) I have not tried any however... I'll just stick with my salted fish.


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## Jericurl (Jan 11, 2014)

This is for SourGrapes. My best friend posted this just for me. She knew it would drive me insane.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 11, 2014)

Jericurl said:


> This is for SourGrapes. My best friend posted this just for me. She knew it would drive me insane.




AWESOME! That is a thing of (terrible) beauty!

It drives me insane, too. But then again, it is not a very far trip.


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## the_rayway (Jan 12, 2014)

We use the examples:

Helping your Uncle Jack, off his horse.

v.s.

Helping your uncle jack off his horse.


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## Jericurl (Jan 12, 2014)

I'm also a fan of:

1. Let's eat, Grandma!

2. Let's eat Grandma!


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2014)

the_rayway said:


> We use the examples:
> 
> Helping your Uncle Jack, off his horse.
> 
> ...



Rae, I am a bit confused. I believe your second example may be ambiguous, but I claim it is correctly punctuated, regardless of which of the senses implied here is meant (the bawdy one or the pedestrian one). 

On the other hand, your first example one is not punctuated correctly, at least by any rules with which I am familiar. To wit, no one would ever say "Helping Raelene, out of the car."

Possibly, you meant "Helping your uncle, Jack, off his horse." ? (In this case, "Jack" is used in apposition to the noun "uncle," which serves as the object of "Helping.")


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## Elmer (Jan 12, 2014)

Knowing your poop!

Vs

Knowing you're poop!


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 12, 2014)

the_rayway said:


> We use the examples:
> 
> Helping your Uncle Jack, off his horse.
> 
> ...



Yes that is a perfect example !
I have used that statement several times -


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2014)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Yes that is a perfect example !
> I have used that statement several times -



I remain confused. Would you really write about "helping your Uncle Jack, off the couch" ? How about "picking your vacuum pump, off the floor" ? Do you think those commas help disambiguate anything?


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## the_rayway (Jan 12, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Rae, I am a bit confused. I believe your second example may be ambiguous, but I claim it is correctly punctuated, regardless of which of the senses implied here is meant (the bawdy one or the pedestrian one).
> 
> On the other hand, your first example one is not punctuated correctly, at least by any rules with which I am familiar. To wit, no one would ever say "Helping Raelene, out of the car."
> 
> Possibly, you meant "Helping your uncle, Jack, off his horse." ? (In this case, "Jack" is used in apposition to the noun "uncle," which serves as the object of "Helping.")



Oh dear. My poor little brain once again let me down.

You are correct Paul, I typed it without proofreading.


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## GaDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

Personally, I try to never limit myself to only one way to spell a word


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## JohnT (Jan 13, 2014)

For the record, 

I deny ever having put "Welch's" and "Wine" in the same sentence. I believe that someone hacked by account. 

That is my story, and I am sticking to it. 


A lot of stuff has been said about wine snobs. I would like to make it a point to say that some expensive wines are worth the price. For the longest time, I was convinced that the difference in quality in a very good $20 bottle of wine and a $100 bottle of wine is not worth the extra money.. 

That was before I had my first Opus-One. 

This wine was so good, I had to sit down. At $150 per bottle, I began to rethink things.

I guess what I am saying is... If you have a preference for expensive wines, that does not automatically make you a wine snob.


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 13, 2014)

I think most people who would buy are order a 150.00 bottle of wine knows what they are doing, and knows there wine. Its more or less about the ones that buy a 20 dollar bottle and know nothing about wine, other then to boast about it...then want to spit it out when your not looking at them.
lol...You know the type...bring a bottle of wine, then boast, then when you open it and taste, its awful, but if you ask them, its wonderful,then hope it gets knocked over so it will be gone...


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## sour_grapes (Jan 13, 2014)

JohnT said:


> A lot of stuff has been said about wine snobs. I would like to make it a point to say that some expensive wines are worth the price. For the longest time, I was convinced that the difference in quality in a very good $20 bottle of wine and a $100 bottle of wine is not worth the extra money..
> 
> That was before I had my first Opus-One.
> 
> This wine was so good, I had to sit down. At $150 per bottle, I began to rethink things.



Good points. This brings us to an almost philosophical question. But first the preface.

I have reported here before that I once won a $75 bottle of Amarone in a "grab bag" kind of deal at a charity event. It was, hands (and feet) down, the best wine I have ever had (which may not be saying that much).

My wife, her girlfriend, and I were all blown away. But, we had somewhat different takes on it. To wit, my wife's friend's opinion was that she would rather have one bottle of this than, say, 5 bottles of $15 wine or 8 bottles of $9 wine. My wife could not justify paying that much for a wine, ever. I am torn -- perhaps I would like to have that experience (and forgo the other 5 or 8 bottles) every other year, or something like that?

Now, I should note that our friend is all talk, of course. She does NOT do what she contended she would do. She does, however, tend to favor higher quality at the expense of quantity or frequency.

Now, some people favor _low price_ as a principal concern, some make _high quality_ the principal concern, and many (most?) make _good value_ the principal concern. I was raised in a "low-price" household, and have been trying most of my adult life to shift to more of a "good-value" type of consumer.

[As a side note, this experience is what led me to winemaking. My BIL thought I would like it, but what cinched it for me was the realization that (in my words at the time) that I "could make bad Amarone for $5 a bottle."]


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## BernardSmith (Jan 13, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Good points. This brings us to an almost philosophical question. But first the preface.
> 
> I have reported here before that I once won a $75 bottle of Amarone in a "grab bag" kind of deal at a charity event. It was, hands (and feet) down, the best wine I have ever had (which may not be saying that much).
> 
> ...



I guess my position is that when so many people in this country go to sleep really hungry and so many people with whom we share this planet are quite literally starving , spending $150, or more, on a bottle of wine is a gesture I find difficult to understand , still less justify...


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## JohnT (Jan 13, 2014)

BernardSmith said:


> I guess my position is that when so many people in this country go to sleep really hungry and so many people with whom we share this planet are quite literally starving , spending $150, or more, on a bottle of wine is a gesture I find difficult to understand , still less justify...


 
I understand where you are coming from, but once in a while a person has the right to splurge on himself. Why would a person splurge on a trip to Europe or spend thousands of dollars on a new big screen tv? I have only had Opus-one once and am very glad I had the chance to try it.


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 13, 2014)

The question is why do these people go to sleep hungry......I do not care where you are from, what color your skin..If you are able to use your hands and feet, then you should not be hungry.
I came from a dirt poor family...I changed that when I was 14....
So here I am..spending almost 2000 on a camera to go on a 20,000 vacations this year...and guess what....I do not care if it cost ....
I say to myself all the time...remember when i had patches on my jeans, and holes in my shoes, and a bisquit and a peice of salt pork...for dinner.
This could be a political thing, but not by me.....
I will just say....people rely on free money, instead of getting off there *** and go do something about it.


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## Stressbaby (Jan 13, 2014)

Mods please lock this thread before someone like me says something they will regret. 
Thanks.


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## ibglowin (Jan 13, 2014)

OK lets remember why this forum is here. Its here to let people talk about wine. We are not here to solve the hundreds or thousands of social problems that exist on this planet. 

Lets stay focused on the topic at hand please.


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## Wade E (Jan 13, 2014)

Man you people really know how to derail a train! Is this a post about wine snobs or tv's, hunger, and spelling?


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