# Just bought wine grape juice for the first time!



## phasee (Sep 10, 2017)

...and i'm not sure what to do next.

Got a shiraz/cabernet mix, bought some yeast, campden, ph and acid test kit.

Does anyone have a link to a guide, or something? I searched but couldn't find anything on the forum.

Many thanks!


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## Julie (Sep 10, 2017)

Take a hydrometer reading, then a ph test. Add k-meta wait at least 12 hours and pitch your yeast.


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## phasee (Sep 10, 2017)

and campden tablets are k-meta, yes? It's 1 tablet for every gallon?

I have 5-6 gallons, I believe, so 5 tablets.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 10, 2017)

phasee said:


> and campden tablets are k-meta, yes? It's 1 tablet for every gallon?
> 
> I have 5-6 gallons, I believe, so 5 tablets.



That is correct. Test the pH and the acid. Do you have a hydrometer? If so, check the specific gravity.

Morewine has a red wine guide which may help, it's pretty good. However, it is written for red wine from grapes, not juice. Still, it might help.

Link.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 10, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> That is correct. Test the pH and the acid. Do you have a hydrometer? If so, check the specific gravity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This morewine Manuel is my bible. I refer to it very often. It is as detailed as one could ever need. I should probably print it out at some point. 

For juice buckets there's maybe 100 different variations. Here's a quick little set of instructions that should keep you straight. But when in doubt you can always refer to that morewine manual.
http://juicegrape.com/jg_sitespecif...ne Grape_Making Red Wine from Fresh Juice.pdf


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## phasee (Sep 10, 2017)

So I also bought a pH meter, I have calibrated it, and checked the pH of the grape juice. Getting a reading of 2.99. 

I believe I am right in saying that the pH should be between 3.4-3.6 for a red wine. How can I alter the pH to achieve the ideal reading.

Thanks again for all the help and information


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## NorCal (Sep 10, 2017)

Something doesn't sound right. Knowing those varieties, I've never seen them that acidic at harvest. Agree with the morewine PDF. I read that all the way through before starting. It not only tells you what to do, but why.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 10, 2017)

It also tells you what to add, how much and everything involved with adjusting levels. I'm not seeing anything for raising ph in there though. 
This is very involved for someone just starting, and you could probably get away with checking levels and adjusting after fermentation. But to remove acids you'll need to add potassium bicarbonate. This one has been my acid adjustment bible. http://wine.wsu.edu/2010/10/13/managing-high-acidity/


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## Stressbaby (Sep 10, 2017)

I agree with @NorCal. Either the measurement is off OR you will have trouble...trouble getting it balanced, trouble getting through MLF, or both. Use your acid test kit with the pH meter and get a TA reading.

If I got that reading (and knew it to be correct), I would consider a calcium carbonate addition preferment, MLF, and possibly other acid remediation measures.


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## phasee (Sep 10, 2017)

With the acid test using the pH meter, I am getting 0.70% TA


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## phasee (Sep 10, 2017)

Maybe I have done something stupid...I dunno.

I took an initial hydrometer reading of 1.070, decided to increase this amount by adding approx 3lbs of sugar.

I crushed up 5 campden tablets, mixed them in to the grape juice. It foamed quite a bit to begin with (wild yeast?). Afterwards I done another hydrometer test with a reading of 1.084 SG, TA 0.70%, pH 2.99.

I don't know if I should have waited to add sugar. Hopefully I haven't done anything that could ruin the grape juice. Can't remember if I got a pH reading before I added the campden tablets or not.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 10, 2017)

Did you check the ph reading more than once? Or check the meter after testing your sample by inserting into the 4.0 buffer solution? I wouldn't be surprised if your 4.0 buffer reads 3.6 or something. Because your TA is right on the money. 
The Camden tabs shouldn't affect the ph though. 
But if your meters off than the TA is off too. If you did the TA test by color change you can eliminate that variable. 

I had these same exact frustrations when checking ph and TA for the first times. One step forward 3 steps backwards.


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## phasee (Sep 10, 2017)

Think you might be right. Re-calibrated once again in the 4.0 buffer, It was reading way lower at 3.2 or something. With this re-calibration the pH level is sitting between 3.27-3.29 now.

I am starting to get the impression my pH monitor is not very good. It is "checker by Hanna", and to calibrate I have to turn small screws on top. Is there another pH monitor that is recommended?


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## Ajmassa (Sep 10, 2017)

I know a few cheap ones that work great for people as long as they are cared for properly. They all should be calibrated often. Especially when some time passes in between uses. 
And you always have to keep in stored wet in either storage solution or the 4.0 buffer. You'll never use the 'cap' it came with again


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## Scooter68 (Sep 11, 2017)

ALL pH Meters require re-clibration AND yes they usually have a small screw that is used for the adjustment. Further when I re-calibrate mine I start with the 4.0 buffer, adjust for that, then rinse with distilled, then check in 7.01 buffer, adjust for that, rinse again and return to the 4.0 buffer and finish with that. Since all our wines are in the lower range, that is the point where we need it to be most accurate.

I use the cap for mine (Rectangular cap) and put some distilled water in that before placing my meter in it. I stand it in a cup on the cap and store it that way.]

Drifting happens with all pH meters, all prices. Just invest in a couple of bottles of buffer solutions (2 or 4 oz size) I have some cleaned, sanitized glass cigar tubes (Look like test tubes with plastic caps) I store my current buffer test solution quantity in. After 3-4 weeks of use I discard those "Test tubes" of solution and refresh it from the 2-4 oz bottles of buffer solution. Keep the large bottles of buffer solution in cool dark spot (Along side the aging bottles of wine)


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## Stressbaby (Sep 11, 2017)

Interesting to note that the Checker by Hanna has precision to the 0.01 but only accurate to 0.2. 

Models are different. Mine has no screws and different order of operations to calibrate. I've been very happy with my MW102 but you'll drop $100 for that meter.

Anyway, those numbers seem better. Are you going to MLF this wine?


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## phasee (Sep 11, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> Anyway, those numbers seem better. Are you going to MLF this wine?


 
I was thinking about it, after reading through the makewine guide. I have looked at my local wine stores website, but can't seem to see anything to do with malolactic fermentation, i.e. the ML culture.

Also, as the campden tablets are already added, is this going to affect my ability to complete a MLF?


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## Ajmassa (Sep 11, 2017)

I think a lot of people who add sulphite before fermentation and add malo after, will not give the must a full dose. 
But the fermentation with eat up a lot of those sulphites. And they sell certain ML bacteria that has a high so2 tolerance. So if you order online you can choose the best fit for your needs


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## cmason1957 (Sep 11, 2017)

I have found that many smaller Local Brew Shops don't carry much in the way of Malolactic Cultures. My guess is shelf Life isn't so good. My go to place to order that is morewinemaking. They always have several different types in stock, prices are as good as anywhere.


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## phasee (Sep 11, 2017)

Excellent. I will order online in a couple of weeks, to prepare for the end of fermentation.

In regards to fermentation, I plan on pitching the yeast later, when I get home from work. While the yeast is doing its job, should I keep the wine in the pale, or transfer to a carboy? The lid for the pale that I have has no hole to add an airlock, it only has two very small holes for releasing C02, I imagine. And if I the answer is to keep the wine in the pale, it will be ok for the time it takes to ferment?

_- I believe I have the answer to this after research: As long as there is enough headspace to allow for the increase in volume during fermentation, the pale should be ok. I'm wondering if it's an issue that I cannot fit an airlock._

When it comes to yeast and yeast nutrients; In reading the MakeWine document, they use a feed for the yeast upon hydration called "Go-Ferm" and during fermentation, feed the yeast with Fermaid-K. I did buy a yeast nutrient, which I imagine is very similar to - if not - Fermaid-K. Is it possible to use the yeast nutrient I have during hydration without damaging the yeast, and then use the same nutrient during the fermentation process? 

Thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 11, 2017)

I generally just set the lid on my pail or put a towel over the top and secure that down. I stir at least everyday, but more like three or four times a day. I would rehydrate the yeast with just water, the nutrient you have is probably just DHP, which is better than nothing, but not for starting out the yeast. I would add about 1/2 of whatever amount is called for after 24 hours, then the rest in about 3 days. But that is just me.


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## phasee (Sep 11, 2017)

Excellent. Yeast is pitched...when re-hydrating I didn't notice much foaming, if any. Hopefully it's still good. I'm using Lalvin RC212 yeast, and I have read that it doesn't produce much in the way of foam.

I've ordered Fermaid-K. It's not going to arrive until the end of the week, at the earliest. Is it a big deal if I have to wait to feed the must?

Also ordered Wyeast WY4114 Er1a Malolactic culture, which has a tolerance for lower pH's.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 11, 2017)

I've never had trouble with RC-212 but I always use Go-Ferm and Fermaid-K. I've read it can be prickly nutrient-wise, it has a high N requirement. 

Thread? Thread. 

Chart? Chart. 

I'd think about bumping the nutrient dose a little bit. You typically don't want to dose nutrient beyond 1/2 or 2/3 sugar depletion, so end of the week might be too late for the Fermaid-K. Watch for H2S.


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## phasee (Sep 12, 2017)

I hope that my order is shipped today, so that I can receive it by tomorrow. I guess even adding the Fermaid-K on Wednesday may be too late? At least I will have it to feed when 1/3 of the sugar has depleted.

I think I have also realised that I will probably have too much SO2 to complete a MLF, having added 5 campden tablets before pitching the yeast...there would be no way to rectify this? Would I be better waiting till the fermentation is finished, re-racking and leaving in the carboy for a couple of months, in the hope that a natural MLF takes place?

I apologise for the amount of questions I am asking. I want to learn and make the best wine I possibly can. Now I will know for next time about MLF and SO2!


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## Stressbaby (Sep 12, 2017)

@phasee, these are good questions, don't apologize. 

There are folks with way more experience than I have so my word on this is not the last. But I think you are going to be OK for MLF. I don't think it is uncommon practice to dose around 50ppm prior to crush. Much of that SO2 will blow off during alcoholic fermentation. So as long as you go sequential (and don't try to co-inoculate), I think you'll be OK. If it were me I would wait til AF is done, rack off the gross lees (if you have any with a juice pail), then inoculate the MLB. Acti-ML and OptiMalo are good insurance policy for the MLF, analogous to GoFerm and Fermaid-K for the yeast, I've always used those. Finally, and I've never done this but some folks like to do it, you can make an MLF starter. Most importantly, keep it warm.

As for yeast nutrient, how much of the standard yeast nutrient have you used so far?


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## cmason1957 (Sep 12, 2017)

Adding 5 campden tablets isn't all that much (At least it isn't if this is 5 gallons or so). I would think most of your SO2 will have blown off by the time you are done fermenting. I certainly wouldn't try to coinoculate your ML Bacteria. Press, Rack, let settle for a day or two, rack again, then add you MLB and add some Acti-ML at the same time.

If you have never done a ML before, I doubt that one would start up all by itself. It might, but I would say that odds are against it.

No problems with questions, they are easier to answer now and help you be on the right path, then try to figure out how to fix something after the fact.


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## phasee (Sep 12, 2017)

This information is great, thanks! Happy to hear I can still continue with the MLF.



Stressbaby said:


> As for yeast nutrient, how much of the standard yeast nutrient have you used so far?


 
I have not added any, yet. I was planning to add some of the DAP when I get home later this afternoon (4-5PM ET).

I'll make an order for Acti-ML and Opti-Malo today.

Should I be tasting the grape juice at this point? Or wait until after fermentation?


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## Ajmassa (Sep 12, 2017)

Make sure you get enough acti-ml for however much Ml you buy. 50g needed for 2.5g of ML. And opti is 1g per gal I think. 
Just let her go checking SG throughout. Careful they can go quick. I picked up a juice bucket on Saturday. When I went to pitch yeast in Sunday the natural yeast already started but SG hadn't dropped yet still at 1.090. Pitched the yeast with starter. 
In 24 hrs I was at 1.030 already!


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## phasee (Sep 12, 2017)

Perfect, I'll continue to monitor SG and stir a couple of times a day.

I have a 125ml of liquid ML culture on it's way.

I am planning to order 50G of Acti-ML, the instruction on the website say: _Mix Acti-ML into 5 times its weight in 25C (77F) chlorine-free water. Add your bacterial culture, then wait 15 minutes before adding to the wine. *Dosage rate: 0.84g/gal* of wine_
By my calculations I would need 4-5g of Acti-ML mixed in to 25ml of water for a 5-6 gallon must (Calculations have been wrong in the past).

I also have 60g of Opti-Malo in my cart, ready to order.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 12, 2017)

phasee said:


> I was planning to add some of the DAP when I get home later this afternoon (4-5PM ET).
> 
> I'll make an order for Acti-ML and Opti-Malo today.
> 
> Should I be tasting the grape juice at this point? Or wait until after fermentation?



Regarding the nutrient, I would probably add 1/2 dose of the DAP/nutrient tonight, then 1/2 dose Fermaid K at 1/3 sugar depletion, assuming it arrives on time. Maybe nudge the nutrient up just a little because the yeast is nutrient-needy RC-212. Be alert for any H2S odors. 

On occasion when the ferment gets away from me or life gets in the way, I've dosed the second half of the Fermaid-K at 1/2 sugar depletion. Conventional wisdom is to not dose nutrient any later than 2/3 sugar depletion.

I don't taste anything until well after AF or MLF. I use my nose throughout this early part of the process. But you can taste it if you want, it won't hurt you.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 12, 2017)

Acti-ml is based on the amount of ml bacteria. 50g pack you'd use the whole thing if using 2.5g of ML. It all depends on how much ML you use. 
You can add too little but not too much. And once the packet is opened it cannot be re-used. 
So the one I used (vp-41 2.5g) was good enough for up to 66 gal. 
Mixed with 50 g of acti-ml and water. And added 3/4 to my bigger batch and 1/4 to juice pail.


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## phasee (Sep 14, 2017)

A little update:

So my beginning SG was around 1.084 on Monday.

Today (Thursday), SG is 1.040. So, a little over half way.

My delivery with Fermaid-K arrives today, and I know it has been said that it isn't beneficial to feed the yeast after 1/2 the sugar is depleted. But i'm wondering, as it is so close to the halfway mark, if I should introduce the Fermaid-K.

Also, I stated before I am using RC212, and have read that this is a low foaming yeast. Even though I can clearly see the yeast is working, I would say it is not foaming at all, it is more of a 'sizzling'. Would this be considered normal behaviour?

Thanks!


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## cmason1957 (Sep 14, 2017)

In my experience RC212 like nutrients, so I would give it some, even though you are at the 1/2 sugar mark. Maybe a third of what you might normally, just to keep the yeast happy. As I recall from back when I used to use it, it doesn't foam much at all, so sizzling is probably normal behavior.


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## phasee (Sep 15, 2017)

I added 1/3 of the Fermaid-K called for, and the fermentation is looking nice and healthy! Thank you to everyone for helping me get started, I have definitely learned a lot in less than a week.

Starting SG was 1.084, sitting at 1.030 right now, and the must temperature has been a steady 75-76F the whole time. 

Pretty happy with the progress, and feeling a little more relaxed now that I got the chance to give the yeast some nutrients.

I may have questions regarding MLF, but for now, I'll just enjoy reading the forum.


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## phasee (Sep 19, 2017)

I may be being paranoid, but I think I can detect a faint smell of rotten egg. Only when I take the lid off of the pail, when I try to smell again, I just get alcohol burning the nose.

I'll pay more attention today when I get home. In the event that the smell is there, what is the best way to remedy H2S at this point?

SG is around 1.004 and dropping slowly.


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## pgentile (Sep 19, 2017)

phasee said:


> I may be being paranoid, but I think I can detect a faint smell of rotten egg. Only when I take the lid off of the pail, when I try to smell again, I just get alcohol burning the nose.



I think that it is not uncommon to detect some sulfur(rotten egg) smells during primary. My two batches the past weeks had a faint sulphur smell when lifting the towel(lid) at a point during the process. But dissipated quickly and never returned. If it lingers or gets strong then I would worry.

Also are you snapping the lid down or just place loosely on top? If snapping down, don't going forward during primary. During primary a towel as a lid would be better. From my understanding you do want oxygen getting in.


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## phasee (Sep 19, 2017)

I have been snapping the lid on. I will switch it to a towel for the remainder of the primary fermentation.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 19, 2017)

pgentile said:


> I think that it is not uncommon to detect some sulfur(rotten egg) smells during primary. My two batches the past weeks had a faint sulphur smell when lifting the towel(lid) at a point during the process. But dissipated quickly and never returned. If it lingers or gets strong then I would worry.
> 
> Also are you snapping the lid down or just place loosely on top? If snapping down, don't going forward during primary. During primary a towel as a lid would be better. From my understanding you do want oxygen getting in.





Ditto on the sulfur smell. And just like you phasee it quickly smelled like alcohol burning the nose. Had a towel over the batch, but fruit flies were becoming an issue. So I put the brute lid on the can over top the towel, and the next day is when I smelled this. Panic mode. 
I'm not sure of the chemical reason, but with no gasses able to escape, I'm assuming this caused it. I stirred up with vigor, put it all through the press, and even funneled to glass to introduce as much o2 as possible. Smell is gone.


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## phasee (Sep 19, 2017)

I stir the juice 2-3 times a day, so this should help the gases escape. I'll keep a nose on it, but given the anecdotal evidence, it shouldn't be anything to worry about thankfully.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 21, 2017)

I'm a firm believer in using just a cloth covering - BUT securing it around the edges. Use a tight weave cloth and be sure to tie it on - with a string/cord around the top in the bucket grooves. Loose fitting a lid over a cloth may still leave little folds or gaps.
Anything like a plastic lid can capture gasses that need to vent out. Also if you are going to use a plastic lid in any way, check the substance of that sealing ring in that lid groove If its made of rubber, that could be creating the ugly smell as the gases react with it.


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## phasee (Sep 21, 2017)

To confirm the fermentation is over, I should check for SG readings which don't move over 2-3 days? Or will I have to kill the yeast? I don't want to add any more SO2, as I will be going through a MLF.

I didn't check the SG this morning, but it was almost at 0 yesterday. I know I'll have to adjust for alcohol, so will assume it's done at around 0.992


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## heatherd (Sep 21, 2017)

phasee said:


> To confirm the fermentation is over, I should check for SG readings which don't move over 2-3 days? Or will I have to kill the yeast? I don't want to add any more SO2, as I will be going through a MLF.
> 
> I didn't check the SG this morning, but it was almost at 0 yesterday. I know I'll have to adjust for alcohol, so will assume it's done at around 0.992



You're almost there! Wines generally finish around 0.992. You are correct that a reading that doesn't move for 2-3 days is done.


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## phasee (Oct 10, 2017)

Currently have my wine inoculated with the malolactic bacteria. I am waiting on a chromatography test kit to confirm whether the MLF is complete.

I have stirred the wine lightly a couple of times, and I still notice an off-smell, or what I perceive to be an off-smell. I wouldn't say it smells like rotten eggs, not as strong as that. I don't really know if it should be there, if it's down to the wine being young, and perhaps it will disappear with aging.

Any insight would be much appreciated.

Also, when I am stirring, should I be re-introducing anything that is now resting on the bottom?


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## phasee (Oct 13, 2017)

Order of chromatography kit fell through, so I have one on the way from a different company.

Regarding the off-smell, if it is a faint sulfite smell, and I add campden tablets after confirming MLF is complete, will the smell reduce even with an airlock in place?

Thanks!


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## Johnd (Oct 13, 2017)

phasee said:


> Order of chromatography kit fell through, so I have one on the way from a different company.
> 
> Regarding the off-smell, if it is a faint sulfite smell, and I add campden tablets after confirming MLF is complete, will the smell reduce even with an airlock in place?
> 
> Thanks!



My normal procedure at the end of MLF, is to rack out of the carboy, leaving behind the lees, into a clean carboy (or barrel if it's going into one) with sulfite powder in it. If there are any faint off odors or smells, allowing the wine to "splash" into the vessel will help eliminate CO2, as well as any faint smells left behind from fermentation / yeast.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 13, 2017)

Just saw your last question about the sediment wasn't answered. And yes, you should be stirring that sediment back up into suspension. It's actually the whole point of gently stirring during MLF. To get any malo bacteria that's been buried down there back into the wine so it can do its thing. 
It's not exactly necessary, but is said to help the MLF along. 
The smell issue I'm not able to help. But I think that's a good plan FWIW. And at MLF completion, rack, dose with K-meta, and give it some time to see what it does. Unless it gets worse before then.


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## phasee (Oct 20, 2017)

Thanks for all the help!

Got the chromotograph paper drying now, hopefully the results will be ready by the time I get home.

One last question before storing for aging is to do with oak cubes.

Currently, I have oak chips in with the wine, and I am wondering if I take them out when I re-rack, or do I keep them in for long term aging?

Thanks again!


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## cmason1957 (Oct 20, 2017)

Oak chips give up everything they have to give in about 5 days and they really don't have much to give. Oak Cubes give up everything they have to give in 4-6 weeks, although I generally leave them in longer. Oak Beans are something I haven't used, but from what I understand they give up what they have to give in 6-8 weeks. Oak Staves are 3-4 months and I haven't used those either.

And a side note, don't rack until MLF is done, doesn't matter how much drops out of your wine, leave it alone, stir some.


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## phasee (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks for the information.

MLF is still going I guess, got spots for Malic acid showing up. Think I may have thrown out the test paper, should have kept it for reference.

Is there such thing as a stalled MLF?


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## cmason1957 (Oct 27, 2017)

Yes there is such a thing as a stalled MLF. If it happens there are a few choices 1) try a different MLB, 2) Warm it up and wait, 3) treat with Lysazome (and I may have misspelled that) it inhibits MLF from completing or restarting up again later on. I suppose absolute sterile filtration is in there as well. But give it more time is the first thing to do and stir it, maybe a bit more often.


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