# Starting Small with Muscadines, Lots of Questions



## echoloc8 (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi everyone, one of my very first posts here, and it's gonna be a big 'un. 

I stand to take over my father-in-law's tree farm in Tarrant, Alabama (a bit north of Birmingham) sometime in the distant future, and I have plans to plant it eventually with Muscadines of different kinds, and with Norton. Norton is way off in the future, because I know very little about vineyard tending and Nortons need a lot of managing from what I understand. So I want to get started with the Muscadines.

Dad-in-law's excited about me getting vines started, and he's granted me some space along the edge of his irrigation system, alongside a fence which should make a decent chest-high trellis. The area gets outstanding sunshine, is on a good slope where water doesn't pool, and of course prelaid irrigation hose is wonderful to get going. I don't have the soil analyzed yet, but it's decent for growing temperamental trees, so it ought to suffice while I get the assay done.

My plans run like this:
* Start with 10 vines at about 15' apart along the fence, which runs for several hundred feet.
* I'm thinking of ordering the following vines (2-year potted from Ison, in lots of 6):
- Noble x2
- Black Beauty x2
- Ison Black x2
- Carlos x2
- Tara x2
- Dixie Red x2​* Plant (by the end of August) all the Noble, Black Beauty, Ison, and Carlos, and 1 each of Tara and Dixie Red, saving the 2 leftover vines in his greenhouse over the winter.

Here are my questions:
* Is August too early (or in some other way bad) to plant? I was hoping to get them rooted in time for the winter, and do some pruning in February or so.
* How much irrigation is right? I can basically set the system for whatever I need.
* How much trouble am I making for myself by plunging right in as opposed to waiting for 2013?
* Is there anything else I'm missing, or in any other way messing up here? 

Many thanks for any and all help,

-Rich


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## garymc (Aug 9, 2012)

I doubt anybody will ship in August. Call your nursery and ask, but I think they won't ship til dormant in Nov. Delicious variety is disease resistant and supposedly tastes good, also makes wine. 
I have had better luck with smaller vines. If you can get vines guaranteed disease free, do it.


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## toddrod (Aug 9, 2012)

If they are potted plants then there is no reason not to plant them when they arrive. Consider getting the grow tubes. They will help them grow and also provide some protection from deer.

Irrigation - I would ask Isons about that when ordering

No need top wait until 2013. That only puts you 1 yr behind

Order that muscadine planting book from Isons. It will answer all your questions on growing muscadines. It was the best investment I made when I started.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 9, 2012)

garymc, apparently Ison's shipping potted 2-year plants now. (shrug)

toddrod, I do have the Ison Muscadine book and it made for excellent reading. I'm definitely going to go for the grow tubes, even though deer aren't an issue where the property's located.

Thanks for the help!

-Rich


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## garymc (Aug 10, 2012)

I hope they don't get put in a non temperature controlled truck in 100 degree heat. I just transplanted some of my potted plants a couple of weeks ago and they survived, but they didn't spend a day or two in a hot truck.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 10, 2012)

Well yeah, me too.


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## tatud4life (Aug 10, 2012)

I doubt Ison's will ship in August. They usually wait until it is planting time in your zone to ship out. Their website probably says taking orders for next year already. I haven't been there in a while. What zone are you in? I have 1 Carlos and 2 Ison's varieties. Planning on a lot more!! Depends on the lot behind me. My Carlos produced a small crop in its second year. The Ison's had a little bit of a hard time getting established. One died and had to be replaced. But both of them are taking off now.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 10, 2012)

Ison's is shipping their potted vines now. I placed my order with them this afternoon and according to the lady I spoke with they should be shipping on Monday or Tuesday. 

It's bareroot that won't be available until dormancy.

[Edit] Oh, and I'm outside Birmingham, AL. Zone 7b.

[Edit] From the homepage, but you need to scroll down: "Now Shipping Potted 2 Year Muscadines Order Now"

-Rich


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## echoloc8 (Aug 10, 2012)

Another question!

The 2-year potted vines I ordered will be 4 to 5 feet tall when I get them. Is it still worth putting the blue grow-tubes on them (which are also 4 or 5 feet long)?

-Rich


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## bigdrums2 (Aug 10, 2012)

I think your choices are good, and planting in the fall is great if you can do it. I wouldn't plant in August-could be too much sun exposure for young vines. Norton is a great vine in the vineyard. Have you talked to the people at ozan? They grow and make a norton just south of Birmingham. Also there is another place I believe north of Birmingham that makes a norton. I think you should also check out black Spanish, also called lenoir, and blanc du Bois. I grow both in Mississippi and they are doing well for me-very disease resistant. There is a place I think near talledega that grows black Spanish. I got my from cuttings, so perhaps they would let you have some?


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## tatud4life (Aug 10, 2012)

echoloc8 said:


> Ison's is shipping their potted vines now. I placed my order with them this afternoon and according to the lady I spoke with they should be shipping on Monday or Tuesday.
> 
> It's bareroot that won't be available until dormancy.
> 
> ...



That is great!!! I hadn't been there in a while. I've never ordered the potted ones. I usually go with bareroot. I would still go with the grow tubes. I don't know if planting in August or September is too late though.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 12, 2012)

bigdrums2 said:


> I think your choices are good, and planting in the fall is great if you can do it. I wouldn't plant in August-could be too much sun exposure for young vines. Norton is a great vine in the vineyard. Have you talked to the people at ozan? They grow and make a norton just south of Birmingham. Also there is another place I believe north of Birmingham that makes a norton. I think you should also check out black Spanish, also called lenoir, and blanc du Bois. I grow both in Mississippi and they are doing well for me-very disease resistant. There is a place I think near talledega that grows black Spanish. I got my from cuttings, so perhaps they would let you have some?



Thanks for the recommendation! My wife and I have been to Ozan, and loved their Norton wines. I'll be trying to get some vines or juice from them come crush.

I will indeed look into black Spanish and blanc du Bois. I hadn't heard much about them, but will do some research now!

-Rich


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## bigdrums2 (Aug 12, 2012)

The black spanish and blanc are doing well for me. There is a place around there called white oaks that supposedly makes a good norton. All three are very disease resistant, especially to pierces disease (norton being more susceptable than the others). Check out the history of black Spanish at fairhaven vineyards site (Texas). Very interesting.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 13, 2012)

Another question, for those still following!

Since this is a sort of experiment so far as my father-in-law is concerned, we're not building proper 5-foot Geneva double-curtain trellises. These 10 vines will be using a four-foot split rail fence as their trellis.

What sort of issues should I prepare for?

Lower yield?
Overloading/breaking the split rails?
Harvesting trouble?

I am planning on training the vines to a single runner for 10' in both directions on the top rail of the fence, but I really don't know what else to expect. Ideas?

-Rich


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## toddrod (Aug 13, 2012)

I do not think you will see any problems using the split rail trellis to start off with.


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## bigdrums2 (Aug 13, 2012)

Are you putting muscadine on it? My muscadines are about 20 feet long.


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## tatud4life (Aug 13, 2012)

Mine are as well.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 14, 2012)

The plan is 10 feet in each direction, or 20' per vine.

-Rich


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## tatud4life (Aug 14, 2012)

That's what I did echo. The only difference is that I have 2 cordons going in both directions. I don't know much about trellising, so you may be doing that already. It seems to work well for muscadines so far.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 14, 2012)

Interesting point re: four total cordons. I know about putting two cordons in either direction, but figured since the 'trellis' will be a four-foot fence the lower one would only be two and a half feet off the ground. Is that enough clearance? 

Also, yet another question: I won't be able to irrigate to 36 gals a week per vine as the Ison's book recommends, more like 15. Would going four-cordon dilute the vine's resources too much?

-Rich


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## garymc (Aug 15, 2012)

Muscadines are pretty drought resistant after they're established. You might try some moisture conserving techniques like mulch, mulched leaves, landscaping fabric and mulch, etc. to get them started. If the weather is extra hot and dry like this year, you might have to supplement your system with buckets of water. The lower rail wouldn't keep the foliage high enough to spray roundup. What would you do with a six foot shoot growing off a cordon 2 feet off the ground? I've noticed a lot more brown spots and insect damage on leaves near the ground on mine. 
I've pinned some vines and noticed the new growth is not bothered so much near the ground, but older leaves look pretty ratty.


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## tatud4life (Aug 15, 2012)

Gary makes a good point! I have to keep the lower cordons pruned more than the upper ones to keep them off the ground. I can't tell any difference in watering with four cordons. The reason I did that was to keep the weight stress to a minimum for the wires. I don't know if it's working, but I haven't had to tighten my wires any this year so far. You might want to check out dripworks.com. They have everything you need for running a drip irrigation system for your vines. That way you can water them and not have to worry about forgetting to daily. I was hoping to run one this year, but it will have to wait until next spring. There are probably other places that sell drip irrigation. Drip works is just the one that I have looked at.


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## garymc (Aug 15, 2012)

I have landscaping cloth and wheat straw with mulch on top to keep the straw from blowing away. I water once a week in 100 degree plus weather with no rain and I could go longer than that. You can see the 2 inch pipe peeing on the mulch near the vine in the picture. I water heavily enough that you can sink in the mud over your ankles if you step in the wrong place, then let them go for a week. After a week of this ridiculous 100 degree weather there is still moisture under the fabric.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 16, 2012)

garymc, good setup, and good to know! The Ison's book says 36 gals a week per vine, is that what you do?

tatud4life, I was wondering exactly that: I know the canes/spurs/cordons can grow enormously in a single year, so I guess if I decide to go for a 4-cordon setup I'll have to keep the lower ones more closely pruned (and/or tied/pinned) to avoid pests/etc.

[Edit] My father-in-law will be helping me put this onto the end of his existing tree-farm irrigation system, but 5 gals a day per vine won't be possible, more like 2.

-Rich


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## toddrod (Aug 16, 2012)

The 36 gallon a week recommendation is more for when the vines have grapes on them. 

If you are limited in what you can water / rainfall, I would highly recommend only going with 2 cordons. Going to 4 with limited water will stress the vine and it will hurt your production and quality of fruit you get from your vines.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 16, 2012)

toddrod, thanks, that's exactly what I was wondering. 

-Rich


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## tatud4life (Aug 16, 2012)

Echo, I don't really have a problem with pests. The only thing that gets on my vines are little tiny black ants. They only show up on the new growth. They don't seem to bother my vines, so I leave them alone.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 17, 2012)

tatud4life, thanks. I have no idea what the pest situation will be where I'm planting, so I hope it's simple like your situation.

-Rich


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## tatud4life (Aug 17, 2012)

Anytime buddy!!! Keep us posted on how things turn out!!!


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## garymc (Aug 17, 2012)

I haven't calculated the gallons. My pump can put out about 5000 gallons an hour, but I don't. Know what gets delivered to the plants. I suspect it's more than 36 gallons. I should check it sometime.


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## echoloc8 (Aug 17, 2012)

I will be planting tomorrow morning. I'll take photos and post 'em!

Thanks to everyone for their help!

-Rich


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## tatud4life (Aug 18, 2012)

Anytime Rich!!!! That's what this place is for!!! The sharing and acquiring of knowledge!!!! I have little to share, but will share the amount that I do have. Most of my knowledge came from here in the first place!!!


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## echoloc8 (Aug 22, 2012)

Posted the story and pix from the planting and setup here:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/vineyard-pine-hill-farms-beginning-33171/

-Rich


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## tatud4life (Aug 22, 2012)

That is awesome Rich!!!!


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## garymc (Oct 18, 2012)

How are they looking in the ground? We need more pics!


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## tatud4life (Oct 19, 2012)

I have a question. My oldest vine is still popping out grapes. I know they will not have time to ripen before it starts getting really cold here. Should I go ahead and prune them off? Or should I wait until the vine goes into dormancy first?


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## echoloc8 (Oct 19, 2012)

garymc said:


> How are they looking in the ground? We need more pics!



Shall do! I'm visiting the new vineyard this weekend (I did some pruning a few weeks ago) and will post pics of what's happening sometime next week.

-Rich


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## bigdrums2 (Oct 19, 2012)

tatud4life said:


> I have a question. My oldest vine is still popping out grapes. I know they will not have time to ripen before it starts getting really cold here. Should I go ahead and prune them off? Or should I wait until the vine goes into dormancy first?



I'd prune them off and let the vine use its energy to go into dormancy.


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## garymc (Oct 20, 2012)

Tatud4life - Next year when you see any of them flowering in July or August or later, nip that in the bud.


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## tatud4life (Oct 20, 2012)

Thanks bigdrums and Gary!!! I'll take care of that as soon as I get a day off. I didn't want to do anything to harm my vines.


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## n2tazmania (Oct 21, 2012)

My muscadines bloom all summer long. After August 1st, I prune all new blooms off. Don't know if that makes a difference with the vine finishing its fruit but it can't hurt.


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## tatud4life (Oct 21, 2012)

Cool. Thanks buddy!!


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## bg7mm (Oct 21, 2012)

recieved a six pack of 2 year old potted plants from isons three weeks ago, some of the vines were 8 feet, i was in mississippi when they arrived here in louisiana and they stayed boxed till i returned. after my return, the next day i planted them, i have new growth on all six vines already and they seem to be doing very well. ordered four varieties


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