# Oak Selection



## uavwmn (Aug 27, 2009)

I just got my CC Argentenian Malbec kit.




I would like to try tweaking with a different oak. Any suggestions from the more experienced winers??


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## JimCook (Aug 27, 2009)

Uavwmn,


The highest rated Argentine Malbecs use exclusivesly French, exclusively American, or a blend of these two oaks. While that may not seem like it provides a lot of insight, it means that you have options in front of you. I used a 50/50 mix of American and French oak in the WE Argentine Malbec that I made. Regardless of what you choose to use, I would recommend using a small amount of oak for easier control over the flavor extraction.


- Jim


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## uavwmn (Aug 27, 2009)

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Argentinean Malbec - with "Crushed Grape pack"


This Malbec is distinguished by its dark, dense structure; full-rounded mouth-feel; prominent, lush flavors of ripe cherry, black currant and black berry; subtle notes of clove, vanilla and caramel with background suggestions of earthiness. The bright, vibrant edge is beautifully counterbalanced by our 2-stage Hungarian oak process.



Jim, this has the Hungarian Oak with the kit. I was leaning toward the French oak. Maybe 2oz for bulkaging for 2 months. Sound about right??</TD></TR></T></TABLE>


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## vcasey (Aug 27, 2009)

Celler Craft got it right with this kit. It is fabulous as is and the only thing I would do different is put it in a barrel. However if you are going to play I would go with the french oak. In a couple of years you are going to be so happy you made this wine!
VC


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## JimCook (Aug 27, 2009)

Uavwmn,


Oaking wine is like cutting hair. You can always cut a little more hair off, and you can always add a little more oak. Lately, I've gone with more of a minimalist approach to oaking and I believe it allows for more control. If you add one ounce of cubes (roughly 34, assuming an average of 0.5" per side of the cubes), then you're looking at an oaking rate for six gallons of wine that similar to that of a 60-gallon barrel (the barrels that most commercial wineries use). Does this mean it will take two years to get the oak flavor into your wine? Not at all. But the surface area of the cubes compared to the volume of wine will be such that a more subtle introduction of oak flavor will be achieved. You will also be bulk aging your wine at the same time, mind you. 


If you are going to be getting the wine into a bottle as soon as humanly possible, then oak with more cubes. But since this kit will already have some oak introduced during fermentation (good for tannin 'shaping'), you may want to notch it down to one ounce and see what it comes up with.


I can't tell you what the timing will be on the oak and it's not necessarily the most prudent approach topre-date when it would come off of thewood - Itruly believe that taste should be your guide.Check on the wine now and then and see how it is progressing. This will also help you identify specifically whichflavors the oak is imparting into the wine as it changes over time. 


The flavors described in the advertisement of clove, vanilla, and caramel are all oak flavors. This will change depending on toasting levels, but you should probably go for a medium to house toast level on the oak that you use given the type of fruit flavors that Malbec provides. 


- Jim


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## Jeff H (Aug 27, 2009)

I have a few carboys of Chilean Malbec (from grapes not a kit)sitting on a 50/50 blend of Hungarian (M+) and French (M) oak cubes. I think this combination will give me the oak to fruit balance I'm looking for. Morewine has a good Oak write up that details type, toast level and expected outcomes you might want to check out.


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## uavwmn (Aug 27, 2009)

Jim, I probably will bulk age for a couple of months. Good analogy on the cut hair thing. I think I will lean toward conservative on the oak and see what happens. I have never heard of a "house toast level"? A French "house toast" level??


Jeff, thanks for the input. Good to know there are those that are experienced in the oaking dept.


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## JimCook (Aug 27, 2009)

Uavwmn, 


Here's a listing of a French oak house toast product from George: http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=6342A.


For reference, the commonly used toasting levels for oak are medium, medium plus (also termed house), then heavy. While there exists a light toasting level, it's use in commercial wine is sporadic at best, much in the same way that Hungarian oak is very rarely used in commercial wine. In regards to the Hungarian oak, I personally believe that some of this comes down to the favorability of a 'tried and true brand' instead of something people aren't as familiar with from a marketing standpoint. 


With toasting oak, the higher the amount of charring, the more smoke/burned flavors that come through. Think of it like toasting bread. If you medium toast it, there's just a hint of it being browned. If you house toast it, it will smell more toasty. And if you heavy toast it, it's going to have some black going on.


- Jim


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## hannabarn (Aug 27, 2009)

Cut off too much hair and it will grow back, Over oak, and good luck!!


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## rrawhide (Sep 14, 2009)

Morn'n

If you have enough wine - try some of each.

Last year I did have enough syrah and did the following:

1 carboy - 3 oz French - house toast
1 carboy - 3 oz American - Heavy Toast
1 carboy - 3 oz Hungarian - Heavy

These were all in contact for 8 weeks

Wow - same wine different oak - what a difference.

French was hints of carmel tasting
American was hints of Licorice tasting
Hungarian - little hints of coffee flavor

Had a tasting at a local winery (friends - about 8 people (2 of them were commercial winery owners) and the following were the results:

7 - liked the French the best
1 - liked the Hungarian

All were very good and very drinkable but the above 2 seemed to be liked the best.

I sent Waldo a bottle of the American Syrah and he had high praise for it.

Anyway, this was my test - fun to see the differences.

rrawhide


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## uavwmn (Sep 18, 2009)

rrhide, very interesting. Well, Jim, and everyone, I will start the malbec kit tomorrow. I am assuming I add my oak as the directions state. Or do I add them later on down the line during the bulk aging step?


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## JimCook (Sep 18, 2009)

Uavwnm,
That depends on you. Oak in the wine during fermentation provides tannins that will interact differently in the wine than oak added after fermentation is complete. You may want to try following the kit oak for the first part and then substitute your oak (I would recommend going light on the number of cubes) in place of the Hungarian oak from the directions. That, by the way, is likely why Cellar Craft splits the oaking like that.


- Jim


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## uavwmn (Sep 18, 2009)

Jim, sounds good. So, I substitute my oak in the oaking process in the beginning and thenminimal oak for bulk aging. That sounds about right. 


Would you split the oak? I ordered the French oak. So, use the oak from the kit and then use the French later in the process?


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## JimCook (Sep 18, 2009)

Uavwmn,


Actually, I was noting to use the oak chips that are provided with the kit and if you are going to substitute, do it in place of the Hungarian oak cubes like you mentioned earlier in this post. The contact time during primary fermentation isn't very long for the cubes and you could let a couple of them sit in the wine later on for longer exposure. 


- Jim


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## uavwmn (Sep 19, 2009)

Jim, great. Thanks for the advice.


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