# First time using frozen must



## TomK-B (Nov 2, 2014)

I just ordered two 5-gallon pails of frozen Washington State (Two Mountain Vineyards) Cabernet Sauvignon must from M&M. It should be delivered around mid-week. The numbers on the must are:

Brix 25
pH 3.26
TA 6.9

I don't believe I need to make any adjustments to these numbers. Any thoughts on that? My plan is to ferment using BM45 because I already have it and have really liked the results I've gotten from it on the past few kits I've made with it. I'll be using the additions for red wines that I got from MoreWine. I also plan to do MLF. This will be my first time to do that. Any suggestions as to the MLB?


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 2, 2014)

Looks like you are all set. I wouldn't change a thing. Acid might be a little high, but MLF should help a little. As far as MLB goes, I really like VP41. Unfortunately, the smallest size I can find is enough for 60+ gallons, so it is a bit pricey (a little over $30). Bacchus was another I've used successfully, but it apparently is no longer offered.


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## sdelli (Nov 5, 2014)

Ditto


Sam


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## TomK-B (Nov 5, 2014)

My buckets arrived today in excellent condition. I'm excited to get underway.


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## TomK-B (Nov 6, 2014)

Oh, by the way, for my MLB I've decided to use the White Labs WLP675. That's what MoreWine is carrying for the six gallon size I'm making.


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## ibglowin (Nov 6, 2014)

Tom,

If I am not mistaken those are all Beer (Ale) yeast and you for sure do not want to use them as they would wreck your wines flavor profile. The smallest wine MLB is usually enough to do 66 gallons. I would stick to what others have suggested. I will also mention that I have had pretty good luck with CH16 and its only $21. I have also opened a pack and used half then right back into a zip lock freezer bag and used the other half the next year. YMMV as they say. Good luck with the ferment. Those should be some good grapes for sure. Hopefully the pH will go up a little once you get them through everything.


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## TomK-B (Nov 6, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Tom,
> 
> If I am not mistaken those are all Beer (Ale) yeast and you for sure do not want to use them as they would wreck your wines flavor profile.



Mike, do you mean MLB here rather than yeast? I'm a little confused. I'm planning to use BM45 yeast.


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## ibglowin (Nov 6, 2014)

Tom,

These are all beer yeast. 



TomK-B said:


> Oh, by the way, for my MLB I've decided to use the White Labs WLP675. That's what MoreWine is carrying for the six gallon size I'm making.


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## geek (Nov 6, 2014)

WLP675 is the white labs MLB, which I do not recommend.
I'd try what the guys said.
The Wyeast MLB is very good, liquid and smaller packs good for 6 gallons.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## seth8530 (Nov 6, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Tom,
> 
> These are all beer yeast.



Que? They make things other than beer yeast.


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## ibglowin (Nov 6, 2014)

Find me one at Morewine that is an MLB……

http://morewinemaking.com/search?search=wlp


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## seth8530 (Nov 6, 2014)

Sure,

Check this guy out wlp 675

http://www.yeastbank.com/whitelabs/wine4.html

Not on morewine, but this is a MLB strain from whitelabs. These guys also have a pretty good foothold in the bacteria market whether it be for brewing or for wine.


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 6, 2014)

http://morewinemaking.com/products/white-labs-malolactic-culture.html


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## geek (Nov 6, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Find me one at Morewine that is an MLB……
> 
> http://morewinemaking.com/search?search=wlp





Boatboy24 said:


> http://morewinemaking.com/products/white-labs-malolactic-culture.html



yup, what Jim posted....


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## TomK-B (Nov 6, 2014)

M&M also carries it. http://http://www.juicegrape.com/Malolactic-Bacteria-Culture-Carboy-Size-5-6gal-WLP675/

Geek, why would you not recommend this product?


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## seth8530 (Nov 6, 2014)

I'm not geek, but I would be wary of the extremly low SO2 tolerance. If I had it available I would choose a different strain with a higher tolerance.


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## geek (Nov 7, 2014)

TomK-B said:


> M&M also carries it. http://http://www.juicegrape.com/Malolactic-Bacteria-Culture-Carboy-Size-5-6gal-WLP675/
> 
> Geek, why would you not recommend this product?



Tom,
I use it once in a Merlot juice bucket batch and never completed MLF, albeit some fault on my part for not checking the PH/TA numbers back then because I think the PH was low in the 3.1 range and the reason (possibly) why it did struggle completing MLF, maybe?

I have tried the Wyeast MLB and was satisfied with the results, good for smaller batches if you don't want to get the VP41.

Couple links for it, it will be your personal preference:

http://morebeer.com/products/wyeast-4007-liquid-malolactic-bacteria-125ml.html

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/malo-lactic-blend-wyeast-4007.html


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## nicklausjames (Nov 7, 2014)

I used the white labs product also. Mlf did not complete. I think you are better off spending a little more for vp41 for the 66 gallons. I know it's more than you need but at least you should complete mlf.


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## TomK-B (Nov 7, 2014)

This is why I pay the big bucks to be a part of this forum! 

I bit the bullet and ordered the VP41. Experience trumps marketing in my book every time.

In the mean time, my must has completely thawed. Yesterday morning I added 3.3 g of k-meta. I added the Opti Red and Lallyzme EX last night. This morning I added the FT Rouge. I checked the temp and it stood at 55*F, so I pitched the yeast. Again, I'm using BM45. My experience with this yeast is that it is a very slow starter. When I see the thick foam with baseball sized bubbles on the surface of the must I'll add the Fermaid K.


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## ibglowin (Nov 7, 2014)

Why don't you warm up the bucket to 70 with a brewbelt or a heating pad?


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## TomK-B (Nov 7, 2014)

That's what I was asking myself, too, Mike. So, I put it on.


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## ColemanM (Nov 7, 2014)

That's what I was asking myself too haha. I did a cab and a Merlot frozen must, and being a kit wine maker, didn't adhere to a great nutrition regiment. My cab only got down to 1.004 but my Merlot has gone to 0.996. Be good to your must!!


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## TomK-B (Nov 8, 2014)

OK, so I got the temp up to 70*F. Lots of activity going on today, which surprises me a bit. I'm not used to seeing this much activity so soon with BM45. This afternoon I checked on it and found that it had formed a cap already. So, punching down the cap is now a threshold that I've crossed. And since it was already getting active I decided to add half the Fermaid K.


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## geek (Nov 9, 2014)

Did you get the acti-ml and opti Malo plus for your MLF process?



Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## TomK-B (Nov 9, 2014)

Yes, geek, got 'em both.

I've got a really strong fermentation going this morning. Got up and punched down the cap (which is a lot thicker than I imagined it would be). It sounds like steak sizzling on the grill. But here's a question that's arising for me. Why is this starting so fast and producing so little foam? I've used this BM45 on 5 kits before now and it always took two to three days for the fermentation to get going and every time it produced more foam than I've ever seen. The last time my juice literally bubbled out of the fermenter when I added the Fermaid. Is there that much difference between kits and raw must?


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## cmason1957 (Nov 9, 2014)

Every ferment is different. I have had the same yeast make lots of foam, then next time no foam. I have no answer for why. You have a cap coming up, fermentation is happening. Carry on.


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## TomK-B (Nov 11, 2014)

Added the second half to the Fermaid last night. Vigorous fermentation continues this morning. Continuing to punch down the cap two or three times per day. All is well so far!


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## seth8530 (Nov 11, 2014)

Sounds like you are having fun coming over to the grape side.


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## TomK-B (Nov 11, 2014)

Yeah, Seth, I sure am.


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## TomK-B (Nov 14, 2014)

It's been a week since I pitched the yeast on this wine. I decided to check the gravity. SG: 1.004. So, It looks like I'll be pressing off the skins soon! 

I've been punching down the cap three to four time each day. It smells great! And I've gotten a couple of tiny tastes along the way and it tastes amazing. I'm pumped about how this is going to turn out. Hope I don't screw it up.


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## seth8530 (Nov 14, 2014)

You should be fine, do you have some kind of press?


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## TomK-B (Nov 14, 2014)

No, Seth, this being my first go at grape must I'm short on some of those little details. Since I have such a small amount, my plan is to use a wire sieve to scoop the skins into a fine mesh bag and just use my hands to squeeze it. I may not get as much out of them as I would with a press, but I'll just have to make do. I'm certainly open to suggestions if folks have a better way of doing it.


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## NYCWINO (Nov 14, 2014)

Nylon mesh laundry bag, for about 2 bucks. Wash and rinse well, sanitize if you feel like with a little kmeta solution only and wring out. Line a pail with the bag and pour the must into the pail. Slowly raise the bag and easily the skins will stay behind, but will not clog. Allow to drip most of free run into a bucket, then twist to press off the rest.
Oh, and wear rubber gloves.


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## TomK-B (Nov 14, 2014)

NYCWINO said:


> Nylon mesh laundry bag, for about 2 bucks. Wash and rinse well, sanitize if you feel like with a little kmeta solution only and wring out. Line a pail with the bag and pour the must into the pail. Slowly raise the bag and easily the skins will stay behind, but will not clog. Allow to drip most of free run into a bucket, then twist to press off the rest.
> Oh, and wear rubber gloves.



OH, YES! That's the trick!


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## seth8530 (Nov 15, 2014)

Yup, I was going to mention something like that.

I use two buckets, one with holes and the other with a strainer in it and I sit the bucket over a collection bucket and press with the other bucket.


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## TomK-B (Nov 15, 2014)

I went out to Target this morning and got a nylon mesh laundry bag that is large enough to fit inside my old Brew Bucket. And I can use the draw string to clamp it to the top of the bucket so that it doesn't fall back in while I pour the must through. Then I can just use the spout at the bottom of the Brew Bucket to transfer the wine into the carboy. I believe that's a plan.


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## TomK-B (Nov 16, 2014)

I checked the gravity yesterday, 0.994. Again today it was at 0.994. So I "pressed off the skins." Wow! that was one big mess! Nothing went wrong or anything -- at least I don't believe anything went wrong. It's just that pouring the must into another bucket caused a lot of splattering. :< And I had to do it twice since my 7.9 gal brew bucket couldn't hold it all at one time. I'd also decided to do it in the bathtub, so it was a lot easier to clean up. I ended up with 7 gallons (one full carboy and two half gallon jugs). I'm shocked at how quickly the sediment begins to drop out of this wine. 

So, here is my question. Once I got it in the carboy and got it under airlock, I discovered that there was a lot of activity in the airlock. Is this the wine degassing? I was assuming that since the SG was below 1.00 and that it was the same two days in a row, alcoholic fermentation was over. So, somebody help me out here. What's up with all the bubbles?


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## ibglowin (Nov 16, 2014)

Yes, 

Unlike a kit, wine made from fresh grapes seems to clear and give up CO2 much easier.



TomK-B said:


> I Is this the wine degassing?


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## TomK-B (Nov 16, 2014)

Thanks, Mike.


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 16, 2014)

Are you doing MLF? If so, rack off that heavy sediment in a day or two, then pitch your MLB. 

Sounds like everything is moving along swimmingly.


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## sdelli (Nov 16, 2014)

I usually wait 48 hours now and then give it a rack..... Find a nice dark warm place to put it thru mlf.


Sam


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## TomK-B (Nov 18, 2014)

Racked off gross lees this afternoon. Oh my, that's A LOT of sediment! :< It's a good thing I had those two half gallon jugs full (with about two inches of sediment at the bottom of each, too). 

I inoculated with VP41 using Opti-ML in the rehydration and Opti Malo Plus in the wine.  I also added one spiral of Medium Toast French Oak. I'll see if that's enough for my taste after a few weeks. If not, I'll add another. 

Right now it is very sharp (duh, 6.9 TA). But it's also very fruity, in fact, I would almost call it jamy. The fruit flavors are quite pronounced and very good! I'm quite happy with how this wine is shaping up!


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## seth8530 (Nov 18, 2014)

Sounds good, I just racked my white bubbely blend and topped of with some boxed wine ( sauv blanc).


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## TomK-B (Nov 18, 2014)

From what I see on the forum, Seth, that's not the only wine you're working on. Dang, you're one of the most prolific winemakers around!!!


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## seth8530 (Nov 19, 2014)

Ha, not really. I only make maybe 4-6 different wines a year. But, I tend to invest a lot of thought into each one I make. Plus, none of them are kits so that take a bit more effort.


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## TomK-B (Nov 19, 2014)

OK, so here's the situation and a (probably silly) question.

Racked off the gross lees yesterday and inoculated with VP41 MLB. The MLF seems to already be taking off -- little bubbles in a ring around the top of the wine in the neck of the carboy. Also action in the airlock. I counted 23 bubbles/min this afternoon. I'm very happy about all of that. Now, I know it will continue to drop sediment and that I need to stir that back up into the wine a couple of times per week to keep the MLB suspended. My question is this. About how much sediment can I expect to see build up on the bottom of the carboy at this point in the process?


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## cmason1957 (Nov 19, 2014)

You will get some sediment, but not a lot. M my seven carboys undergoing MLF now might have 1/4 inch of sediment or something like that. About what you would expect from a second racking.


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## seth8530 (Nov 19, 2014)

Yeah, the amount of sediment you get will depend greatly on a few factors. But so long as they aint the gross lees and aint piling up too high, I would not worry way too much about it.


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## TomK-B (Nov 20, 2014)

Like I said, silly question. Looks like I have somewhere between 1/4 -1/2 inch of sediment. Guess I was expecting just a dusting after racking off gross lees. Now I understand why they say to stir it back up to prevent the bacteria from being smothered at the bottom.


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## Treeman (Nov 20, 2014)

TomK-B said:


> OK, so here's the situation and a (probably silly) question.
> 
> Racked off the gross lees yesterday and inoculated with VP41 MLB. The MLF seems to already be taking off -- little bubbles in a ring around the top of the wine in the neck of the carboy. Also action in the airlock. I counted 23 bubbles/min this afternoon. I'm very happy about all of that. Now, I know it will continue to drop sediment and that I need to stir that back up into the wine a couple of times per week to keep the MLB suspended. My question is this. About how much sediment can I expect to see build up on the bottom of the carboy at this point in the process?




I wouldn't worry about stirring that often. Going in and out of the carboy twice a week over a few months or so is not recommended because your going to introduce O2 gas every time you remove the airlock to stir. I've never stirred mine, and they have always finished.

When action in your airlock slows down to a bubble every 15 min, then I would test for completion. If it is not done, then you could stir it up to resuspend the lees and any settled bacteria.


Cheers!


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## TomK-B (Nov 20, 2014)

Treeman said:


> I've never stirred mine, and they have always finished.



Huh. Well, that's something I've never seen in any of the materials I've read on the subject.

Here is what I've gotten to use when taking the airlock off: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AS4NCM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## ColemanM (Nov 20, 2014)

Wow that's a good price!! Free shipping to boot.


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## TomK-B (Nov 20, 2014)

I thought so.


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## Treeman (Nov 21, 2014)

TomK-B said:


> Huh. Well, that's something I've never seen in any of the materials I've read on the subject. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Here is some discussion on another board http://www.winepress.us/forums/inde...-for-my-next-problem-stirring-lees-during-mlf.
> ...


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## TomK-B (Nov 21, 2014)

Treeman said:


> TomK-B said:
> 
> 
> > Huh. Well, that's something I've never seen in any of the materials I've read on the subject. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## TomK-B (Jan 24, 2015)

OOPS, forgot to update the thread.

MLF completed several weeks ago. I racked off the fine lees on New Year's Eve  and added k-meta to 50 ppm.

The taste was tight and astringent. It was totally unintegrated in any way. The oak stuck out like a sore thumb. But there was definitely a really delightful fruity flavor in there as well. I'm hoping that with time that will come to the fore and all will become well integrated.


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## Buonissimo (Jan 29, 2015)

Tom

Very nice. I am ordering my first frozen must as well. I found this very helpful. 
Question regarding your very first part of this. Are there "standard guidelines" for Brix/TA/PH balance. I am wondering how one knows if they are good to go or if adjustments need to be made.?

in that light here are the ones posted on the site for the Syrah I am ordering Brix: 25.75, pH: 3.5, TA: .55 

any first time mistakes to avoid or words of wisdom? Any comments on primary vessel (brute vs multiple wine buckets)

thank you


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 29, 2015)

Buonissimo said:


> Tom
> 
> Very nice. I am ordering my first frozen must as well. I found this very helpful.
> Question regarding your very first part of this. Are there "standard guidelines" for Brix/TA/PH balance. I am wondering how one knows if they are good to go or if adjustments need to be made.?
> ...



I'm not Tom, but I'll try to help. In my opinion, your Brix is on the high side and the TA a tad low. I'm not sure I'd adjust acid on this one at this point, but with no Brix adjustment, you're looking at a 15% ABV wine - maybe slightly higher. If you're OK with that, don't mess with it. If you want it a little lower, you can add acidulated water to bring the Brix down. 

Before you get started, read this: http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wredw.pdf
It's a great source of information and will help make your first foray into whole grape fermentation successful.

Regarding the vessel for primary, I guess that depends on how much you're doing. I'm tempted to try that same wine and would get two buckets if I did. For that volume, I'd ferment in my 20gal Brute.


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## ColemanM (Jan 29, 2015)

I added 500ml water and 15g tartaric acid. It fermented to .994 in 7 days. Two feedings of fermaid K. Starting SG was 1.104 I think.


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## TomK-B (Mar 21, 2015)

Update on this Washington Cab: It's been about three months since I racked out of the MLF. It has continued to drop some sediment along the way. I decided to rack again today into a clean carboy. All went well and I got a taste of how the wine is developing. The color is a deep ruby and the body is medium to full. On the nose I get a lot of cherry and black current. On the pallet it is still very tight and unintegrated. The tannin is strong, but totally unintegrated. 

I'm totally pumped about how this wine is shaping up. I can imagine in two years that this will be a wine that I'm going to be quite proud of.


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## seth8530 (Mar 21, 2015)

wine from grapes is fun


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## Kiwisholland (Aug 26, 2015)

Any update on this Tom?


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## TomK-B (Aug 27, 2015)

Kiwisholland said:


> Any update on this Tom?



Funny you should ask. I racked again last Friday for the third time. There was no sediment left. The wine is a deep purple and as clear as a bell. Really very happy about that. I'm continuing to see really dramatic changes in the flavor of this wine as it ages. All of that initial astringency is gone. The fresh fruity flavor is really standing out. But there is something that continues to be out of balance. I'm thinking it still has a bit too much acid. I'm going to give it a bit more time to see how it develops, but I may try to cold stabilize it over the winter.


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## TomK-B (Jan 29, 2016)

Well, we had a cold snap move through during the past two weeks, including 8" of snow  here at the house. I spotted it coming and decided to use it as an excuse and opportunity to try some cold stabilization of this Washington Cab. The carboy spent nine days on the front porch with the temps ranging from 12*F to 34*F. I brought it in and racked it immediately. There was quite a significant amount of residue on the bottom and sides of the carboy. I topped up the wine, put a solid stopper on the carboy and set it in my storage room. That was a couple of days ago. 

Today I went in to check on things and found that the wine had warmed up and expanded, pushing the stopper out of the neck of the carboy. I siphoned it back to an appropriate level and replaced the stopper. But something had to be done with that wine that I'd taken off the carboy. It was about 2.5 fl ozs. What would YOU do with it?  Yup, me, too.

Holy cow!!!!!  That has turned into some really amazing wine! I'm so surprised and tickled! My wife had a taste and was blown away, too. I've made a lot of kits to this point in my winemaking adventure, but this is turning out to be the most surprising point along the journey. 

I'll be bottling it soon . . . probably in the next couple of weeks. Then I plan to give it another year of aging in the bottle before opening it again. I'm so excited and happy about how this has turned out. Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions and helped along the way!


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## Kiwisholland (Jan 30, 2016)

Thanks for the update


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