# Wild Persimmon Wine



## RandyB561 (Nov 1, 2018)

5 pounds of wild Persimmons that I literally fought Black Bears and yellow jackets for. 5 days ferment on D47 yeast. Punching the Kreuosen down twice daily. As soon as the Kreuosen falls, I'll strain it all through fine cloth and ferment out. Yummy smelling and tasting already!


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## Stressbaby (Nov 1, 2018)

Good luck! I've made persimmon wine no less than a dozen different ways and it failed every time. Could write a book on persimmon wind failures. Nasty dirty sock/gym bag aroma. Hope it works out for you.


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## RandyB561 (Nov 2, 2018)

Thanks, I'm not getting any of that with D47. It's a very clean, aggressive yeast.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 4, 2018)

RandyB561 said:


> Thanks, I'm not getting any of that with D47. It's a very clean, aggressive yeast.



It's not the yeast. Have used Red Star Champagne, D47, K1-V1116, EC-1118; standard nutrient, Fermaid K/GoFerm, up front and step fed, anywhere from 2#/gal to over 5#/gal, various additives, always the same problem.

I get a couple hundred pounds of persimmons each year from a huge tree right in my front yard. Used to collect 50-100# per year before getting tired and letting the deer have the rest. If you figure it out, I'd like to know your secret.


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## RandyB561 (Nov 4, 2018)

The only thoughts I have are, Do you remove All the caps and All the seeds? I Always do. I also always introduce 3 - 10 oz jars of Smuckers "Simply Fruit" Apricot jam to the secondary instead of sugar. I first put the jam in a microwave safe bowl and nuke it one minute. Then I stir it up real good and nuke it again one minute. I then add this syrupy mix to the secondary and then rak the persimmon squeezings on top. stir it up and sit back and watch the Party start. I think the refined sugars may be freaking your yeast out after their peaceful time with the wild Persimmon fruit. You did ask for my thoughts.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 5, 2018)

I always removed the caps. Rarely did I remove the seeds; I might have tried it from pulp once, I'd have to go back and look through notes.

Seems unlikely to be the sugar however, as it was always the same granulated sugar used in any other wine and no other wine had the issue.

Keep us posted on your batch, thanks!


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## Cxwgfamily (Nov 5, 2018)

I started my first persimmon wine batch about 2 weeks ago. I cut out the core and tried to get all the seeds out. the persimmons were very ripe almost mush. I took a spoon to dig out the "meat" and threw away the skins. (I would love to hear others opinion of skin removed verses letting it go through the primary?) Fermentation went off without any problems, like RandyB561 said "fermentation was a party." I racked on about day 9. the solids were not settling very well so I degassed a little and the solids are settling nicely. I tasted the batch after about a week in the secondary and< WOW!!!!, this is the beat wine i have made at the three day in the secondary. I will rack it off the solids in about another week and them bulk age for a while. Quick note, I did not use wild persimmons. A friend has a Japanese persimmon tree and he gave me about forty pounds. I am going to make another batch when I open up some carboy space.
Cxwgfamily


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## RadRob (Nov 8, 2018)

I'm glad to hear it's good without seeds and skins. I have a small batch on day 4 now. I'm using the same homegrown persimmons that were like a smoothie and sweet.


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## Dkrmwiz (Nov 10, 2018)

i'm using the mesh bags this time, last time i didn't and had a heck of a time siphoning that mess into the carboy. i did just one gallon last year, not a lot of wild persimmons. this year, tons! last years was fine, just not the whole flavor i was hoping for. it's a pretty lemonade color. tastes ok by itself, not awesome. i used it as a mixer with sprite. i still have 3/4 of the gallon left, bottled in 1/4 gallons separately, that i'm going to let age up a bit before trying again. i'll be watching this thread to see how Randy's batch turns out.


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## Scooter68 (Nov 10, 2018)

Adding any jam, jelly or preserves to a wine batch you are asking for problems - Pectic Enzyme is used to break down natural pectinn which is a natually occurring substance and an additive to jams, jellies to thicken them. Pectin keeps fine particles suspended in your wine must preventing it from clearing - referred to as a Pectic Haze, it's a real bugger to deal with. 

Think long and hard before adding any commercial or even homemade jams,jellies or preserves to a wine unless you are fine with drinking hazy cloudy wine or doing a lot of extra work.


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## RadRob (Nov 11, 2018)

Randy, I hope you don't mind me tagging along. I'm not trying to hijack your thread but I didn't want to start another persimmon thread when this one is active. If you do mind I'll move it.

Hey guys, can I get some help/comments on this.

I'm a noobie and this is the first wine I'm making from fresh fruit. First mistake I made was not getting a hydrometer before I started, that's been taken care of but I don't have a starting SG.

I followed a recipe similar to Jack Kellers except it called for all the sugar in the first steps. https://winemaking.jackkeller.net/persimmo.asp

Today is day seven and the SG is 1.030 so I racked/strained into a gallon jug. It taste good but a little weak on the alcohol compared to some juice wines I have going. The flavor is different than I thought it would be but good. The color is nothing like I expected, it seems light to me. 

So am I on the right path and is this normal? 

Here's a pic from a few days ago






And today, Thanks for the help. Rob


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## Stressbaby (Nov 11, 2018)

@RadRob, are those Japanese persimmons?


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## RadRob (Nov 11, 2018)

Yes, Hachiya with no seeds in these and I scraped the pulp out of the skins. I had plenty and used only the ripest fruits and the best parts of the persimmon. They were so ripe it was like a balloon ready to burst. I'm surprised the pulp didn't change color. About 90% of it did settle to the bottom. 

I just picked the rest on the tree because a freeze if "supposed" to be here next week. I'll freeze them when they ripen and make a bigger batch.


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## Dkrmwiz (Nov 13, 2018)

radrob, that's the color of wine i got with the wild ones from up on our hill. looks like lemonade. i'll post a pic when i can.


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## Cxwgfamily (Nov 13, 2018)

RadRob
Your batch looks exactly like mine. Your pics could be my batch. However, I rack out of the primary at 1.01 and allowed the solids to stay with the batch for about 10 days. Then I separated them via filtering. Batch is clearing now via gravity. I anticipate I will have to clear with additives. Although I have not decide what type of clearing agent I am going to use yet. Best of luck!!


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## Dkrmwiz (Nov 13, 2018)

Pic of wine. Don't judge the bottle, it was all i had at the time i needed to get it out of the 1 gallon carboy. I have 3 of these bottles.


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## RadRob (Nov 13, 2018)

Thanks, I'm glad it's working as planned.

I found an old thread and picked up some good info on additions to make the wine better and using isinglass to clear it. Here's the thread/post. https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/persimmon-wine-variations.33510/page-3#post-430709


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## Stressbaby (Nov 13, 2018)

RadRob said:


> Thanks, I'm glad it's working as planned.
> 
> I found an old thread and picked up some good info on additions to make the wine better and using isinglass to clear it. Here's the thread/post. https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/persimmon-wine-variations.33510/page-3#post-430709



Yeah that's my post and my thread.


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## RadRob (Nov 19, 2018)

Good news, it's clearing well, Bad News is I played with it again.

Did I screw up? After reading the thread I posted I added 6oz of honey in the secondary and stirred it up. It's still fermenting from the yeast floating all around and it's still bubbling the air lock, SG is 1.020 and it's been 7 days since I added the honey. It tastes hot but has good flavor. Will this ferment down to 1.000? Is it normal to see this after back sweetening without using something to kill the yeast?

Here's a few pics from today.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 19, 2018)

Yes, it is normal to see fermentation start up if you backsweeten without adding potassium sorbate and k-meta.

Will it ferment down to 1.000? Who knows. What was the original SG, the SG before you added the honey, and the SG after you added the honey? What yeast did you use?


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## RadRob (Nov 19, 2018)

I wish I had all those answers but I don't. This is new to me and I followed JKellers recipe. I have since bought a refractometer and a hydrometer. I don't know which one to trust either. I calibrated them both with distilled water and they both read different so I've been using the hydrometer thinking that one is probably better.

Why do most recipes I found call for racking at 1.030 but I've read I should let it go down to 1.010 or lower? IS that for just fruit wines? Confusing trying to figure it out especially when you follow recipes.

Here's all the info I recorded since It started. I hope you can figure something out and explain it to me so I know in the future. Thanks!

Nov 3rd Started the wine and let sit 24 hours
Nov 4th dropped the yeast, used lalvin K1-V1116
Nov 9th tested SG=1.065, hydrometer came in
Nov 11th Racked into gallon jug SG was 1.030
Nov 12th Added 6oz of honey and stirred good to dissolve
Nov 19th SG is at 1.020


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## Johnd (Nov 19, 2018)

As far as the hydrometer and refractometer go, when used at the proper times during the process, both are reliable. I should note that several folks here have compared initial readings (before fermentation) and the hydrometer has had a slightly higher reading than the refractometer by about 1 BRIX. Both instruments can be used when assessing / adjusting the initial sugar content of your must. Once fermentation has begun to produce alcohol, the refractometer should be set aside, as the presence of alcohol distorts the readings, and the hydrometer should be your measuring device of choice. There are formulas that can be used to convert refractometer readings in the presence of alcohol, I don't know how reliable they are, but the hydrometer won't let you down.

When to rack is a personal choice, though I suspect that for most folks, somewhere in the 1.000 - 1.010 vast majority of the recommendations. As with many things in winemaking, you may get some differing opinions, but at those levels, you're still producing CO2 to protect your wine from oxygen, but the fermentation typically won't be so vigorous as to cause wine volcanoes, overflows, or airlock intrusion when your wine goes into a carboy.


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## RadRob (Nov 19, 2018)

AHH, Ding, Ding Ding!!!!! I didn't think about the alcohol throwing the reading off. Now that you mentioned that, I started a strawberry wine and took readings at the beginning and they were the same compared to after fermentation started.

What about PH? Does alcohol change that too? 

Back to the first racking. I've been reading about when to rack and saw some conflicting information. Some say to leave some dead lees in for the second fermentation and others say not too. I read somewhere that the lees are still working on the flavors and having the sediment will give the wine more of the fruit flavor. I thought the purpose of the first racking is mostly to start clearing the wine from all the sediment but then read 70% of alcohol is made in the first ferment and the other 30 is in the secondary. That made sense to the first racking at .030. 

The more I learn, the more I don't know. I need a "making wine for dummy's" video!!!


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## Johnd (Nov 19, 2018)

RadRob said:


> What about PH? Does alcohol change that too?
> 
> Back to the first racking. I've been reading about when to rack and saw some conflicting information. Some say to leave some dead lees in for the second fermentation and others say not too. I read somewhere that the lees are still working on the flavors and having the sediment will give the wine more of the fruit flavor. I thought the purpose of the first racking is mostly to start clearing the wine from all the sediment but then read 70% of alcohol is made in the first ferment and the other 30 is in the secondary. That made sense to the first racking at .030.



Alcohol doesn’t affect the pH meter readings, but the presence of CO2 in the must will. pH reading should be made on must that has been degassed. 

There aren’t two alcoholic fermentations, only one, but we sometimes reference primary vessels (open buckets / vats) and secondary vessels (like carboys to control exposure to oxygen). True secondary fermentation is malolactic fermentation, where we use malolactic bacteria to convert sharp tasting malic acid into much smoother tasting lactic acid. 

The length of time your wine is exposed to the fruit pulp / skins, etc., the more flavor, body, and color is extracted during AF. Some even leave the wine on the skins after AF has completed to enhance this effect. Leaving your wine on the lees can also cause it to pick up off, nasty flavors and aromas as they decompose, you need to know what you’re doing. For now, you’re safer to transfer to your secondary vessel somewhere near 1.000. 

And no, you don’t need to do malolactic fermentation on your persimmon wine, it’s mostly used on dry red wines from grapes.


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## Dkrmwiz (Nov 25, 2018)

2 gallons to carboy today. Already better than last year, using the mesh bags made it so much easier! It's really bubbling


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## Cxwgfamily (Dec 7, 2018)

Dkrmwiz,
the batch really lookd good. But the color is myuch lighter than my batch. I do not used the fruit bag because I want the yeast to be in intimate contact with all the fruit pulp components. My thought (right or wrong) is that I will get better color development, better extration of tannins, etc. I do not know if I am right of not but it works for me. However, it is a bit more challenging when it come to solids separation and clearing (I have to rack more than most.)

I would be interested in hearing others opinion on bag or no bag as it relates to color development, flavor development, exaction of tannins, and any other issue that is positive or negative to final product.

cxwgfamily


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## RadRob (Dec 7, 2018)

I bottled the first gallon I made last night, it cleared nice using Super Kleer. I drank a few glasses and it tastes great already. I didn't use a bag and used only the pulp on this batch.






I started a 4 gallon batch on the 1st using a bag and I also kept the skins on half of them hoping for more color. 
I froze these till I had enough and noticed when cleaning them that if I ran the fruit under hot water the skins would just peel off easy. After cleaning a few pounds I noticed the skins stopped up the sink and the water had a nice orange tint so I decided to keep some with the skin on. These are easy to cut even frozen, the pulp doesn't freeze solid and it makes it easy to remove the pits.


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## Cxwgfamily (Dec 7, 2018)

Thanks for this post. I made a 6 gallon batch of persimmon wine (my first persimmon batch) a month ago. I cored and scooped out the pulp with a spoon. The color is OK but I would like it to be a little richer. It is a pale yellow. For the second batch, I cored and scooped out most of the persimmons, but I saved the ones that did not have very many blemishes on them (probably about 20 to 25 %). I was not sure if I was going to add the skins to the batch or not but now I am. I will keep everyone up the date. 
cxwgfamily


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## Dkrmwiz (Dec 9, 2018)

2 weeks since move from fermentation buckets. Re racked. Color or opaqueness still different, not sure why as i used the same process on both buckets. I'll re rack once a month until clear. It will probably be April or May before this happens, i like to go as natural as possible with wine.
As for how i process the fruit. It came straight off the tree into gallon size freezer zip bags, each weighted a hair above 5 lbs. I put these in the chest freezer for 3 weeks, thawed in the fridge for 3 days, removed only the leaves and stems, and put them in the mesh bags. I used an empty wine bottle to mush them in the buckets and added a gallon of boiled water to each bucket. We're on a cistern, so it's pure water i use. I'll post a link to my method, it's actually a wild plum wine recipe (i made 5 gallons of that last year. Freeze killed fruit this year).


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## Dkrmwiz (Dec 9, 2018)

https://andhereweare.net/quick-easy-plum-wine/

Note: i don't use the lemon juice and the yeast i use is the one with a "K" in it. It's for fruit wine.


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## Cxwgfamily (Dec 31, 2018)

I started my second batch of Persimmon Wine about two weeks ago. the pic below is after about a week in the secondary. Looks just like the first batch at the same point in production. the only difference is the second batch had about 20 to 25% of the persimmons skins included in primary fermentation. I will keep everybody up to date. I have not tasted this batch yet. But it is looking really good.


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## Dkrmwiz (Feb 9, 2019)

Color and opaqueness still different, so for this months racking i blended them. We'll see how it goes. Smell is good, and it's still bubbling


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