# Garden planning Wine



## hawkwing (Mar 25, 2022)

Just planning my garden for the year. I’ve already started lots of seeds indoors. Still snow on the ground up here.

This may be wishful thinking but I was wondering if there is anything I could grow in a northern climate that would make a decent wine? More looking for a single season crop. I’m looking for ideas outside of Rhubarb and Raspberries etc. Carrot wine makers didn’t sound like they had much success. I think I saw somewhere someone say parsnips were maybe the best. I’ve seen people talk about tomatoes but I can’t imagine a great wine from them.

Hopefully someone has some good ideas and experiences with garden wines.


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## ChuckD (Mar 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Just planning my garden for the year. I’ve already started lots of seeds indoors. Still snow on the ground up here.
> 
> This may be wishful thinking but I was wondering if there is anything I could grow in a northern climate that would make a decent wine? More looking for a single season crop. I’m looking for ideas outside of Rhubarb and Raspberries etc. Carrot wine makers didn’t sound like they had much success. I think I saw somewhere someone say parsnips were maybe the best. I’ve seen people talk about tomatoes but I can’t imagine a great wine from them.
> 
> Hopefully someone has some good ideas and experiences with garden wines.


I have heard good things about ground cherries. Maybe from BigDave?


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## hawkwing (Mar 25, 2022)

I had to look them up. Hardy to zone 4. Unfortunately I’m in a zone 3 region.


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## CortneyD (Mar 25, 2022)

I saved a recipe for a carrot wine that had chamomile and mint in it and I was intreigued enough to mark it as a "to make". Ground Cherries can also be sown as an annual, which is what we do even though we are zone 4. They produce really well as long as you start them about the same time as your tomatoes/tomatillos. And there's always tomato wine! 
I like to use the search function here and search out country wine recipes... maybe that's a good way to find something that's interesting to you!


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## hawkwing (Mar 25, 2022)

What do ground cherries taste like? I assume tart? With added sugar would they taste more like bing cherries or pie filling?


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## BigDaveK (Mar 25, 2022)

I have my first tomato wine in the carboy. Wanted to have a taste before this year's harvest. If I like it I'll have to experiment. (A little hot pepper maybe?)

I've read that many root crops make fine wines. No experience. On the list.

I've also read wonderful opinions about flower wines. Again, no experience. On the list.

Squash and melons! And again, no experience. On the list.

Gee, I'm a big help.


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## ChuckD (Mar 25, 2022)

They are in the tomato family. I have only eaten them fresh. When ripe they are tart with a sweet fruit flavor. Not like cherries but not tomatoes either. It’s been a while but my grandma always had them in her garden. They seed themselves readily. Search for them on this site and you should find Big Dave’s post where he talks about them.

ETA. Ok maybe it wasn’t BigDave but I swear I read about them here a few weeks ago. Or maybe it was all in my head


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## BigDaveK (Mar 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> What do ground cherries taste like? I assume tart? With added sugar would they taste more like bing cherries or pie filling?



Nothing like cherries but they are good for pies and jams. And wine.
My ground cherries are different each year. Sometimes more tart, sometimes more sweet. It's up to Mother Nature. I was very pleased with my ground cherry wine this year and will be increasing the number of plants. VERY strong pineapple flavor which surprised me. That decreased somewhat at bottling time. Bottle aging now and I'm really curious where it's going.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 25, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> They are in the tomato family. I have only eaten them fresh. When ripe they are tart with a sweet fruit flavor. Not like cherries but not tomatoes either. It’s been a while but my grandma always had them in her garden. They seed themselves readily. Search for them on this site and you should find Big Dave’s post where he talks about them.
> 
> ETA. Ok maybe it wasn’t BigDave but I swear I read about them here a few weeks ago. Or maybe it was all in my head



@ChuckD, yeah, that sounds familiar - I think it was Big Dave.


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## CortneyD (Mar 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> What do ground cherries taste like? I assume tart? With added sugar would they taste more like bing cherries or pie filling?


My ground cherries have always been sweet when ripe. They're a mix of pineapple, honey and vanilla (I think) and are delicious but VERY seed-y so I hate making jams/jellies with them, but wine is another thing all together!


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## BigDaveK (Mar 26, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I had to look them up. Hardy to zone 4. Unfortunately I’m in a zone 3 region.


Out of curiosity I had to see what grows in zone 3. In addition to what's been mentioned already, I came across the haskap berry or honeyberry. Taste described as raspberry blueberry. Some varieties hardy to zone 1. Sounds interesting. I'm going to think about this one for my own garden.


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## salcoco (Mar 26, 2022)

zucchini and cucumber both make good wines.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 26, 2022)

We can make wine from everything out of the garden. Just be ready to add things that are missing in a balanced fermentation. pH, aromatics, yeast available nutrients, tannin, sugar, even water.


hawkwing said:


> I had to look them up. Hardy to zone 4. Unfortunately I’m in a zone 3 region.


*Tomato makes a good wine like a Chardonnay, it is low on sugar and tannin and generates lots of lees so consider bentonite.
*Ground cherry needs acid and tannin, a nice clear juice.
*zuchini makes a good extender juice, low on acid, sugar, aromatics and tannin
*I put together a “Thanksgiving” wine based on winter squash and cranberry.
*There are scented cute varieties as “lemon cucumber” in my catalog that look interesting. Add acid and sugar and tannin source.
*Mint makes an excellent wine, basically treat it like a tea that you add sugar and acid and tannin to (like a dandelion). Chocolate mint . . . etc
*I would look for haskap on zone 3, but know that honey berries are a three year project.
*I would walk the neighborhood and collect mulberry, I like it with 2 to 5% lemon juice and last year loaded it with tannin to make a “big red” wine.
*rhubarb is excellent and makes a good acid source to add to peach or ground cherry, I have added 1 to 2% tannic crab apple the last several years.

All in all everything in the garden will work and if you have a big freezer you can blend traits from one species with another to come up with a balanced beverage like a grape.


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## balatonwine (Mar 26, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> someone has some good ideas and experiences with garden wines.



Dandelions. If you have them.

Not a garden wine, but since they are free, require no care, need no indoor seed starting, and will not use up garden space which should maybe be used to best use to make food, not a beverage, maybe the best option I can suggest. 

Oh, yes.... and the early leaves make for a great salad. Similar to arugula in taste. So they have two things to consider.


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## hawkwing (Mar 26, 2022)

So lots to consider. My parents started some haskap. But I was looking at it as a multi year project. 

I’m having difficulty envisioning a good tomato or cucumber wine unless they taste nothing like the source fruit. I’m one of those people that just doesn’t care for mint in anything. I don’t understand how people love it.

Pumpkin might be interesting but likely requires spicing. Going outside of fruit is a big change and uncertain territory that will require much more research. 

If I’m looking at multi year projects I might have to look at haskap, blackberry if I can find a hardy variety. However my space is limited and partially shaded.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 26, 2022)

Pumpkin doesn’t need extra spice. Don’t forget dandelion. It is time for me to start another batch. Rhubarb is lovely. I’m going to try cucumbers/melon this year!.


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## toadie (Mar 26, 2022)

Haskaps are great but you need two different varieties for pollination. Also a bit of work to pick and the birds love them.


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## ChuckD (Mar 26, 2022)

Don’t forget the beets! I started one last fall and it’s already quite good. It still needs time to shed the beet flavor but it’s showing lots of promise.


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## Raptor99 (Mar 26, 2022)

I just planted some Lingonberries, which are similar to cranberries. They are cold-hardy to around -40 F. I'm not sure how they will grow here, but I thought I'd give them a try. Not a one year project, but if they grow well it might be worth it. My parents lived in MT, and their raspberries grew well there. Some varieties have no problem with the cold.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I had to look them up. Hardy to zone 4. Unfortunately I’m in a zone 3 region.


Ground Cherries are an annual although will come back from previous year's seeds sometimes. The more important thing to note is how many warm days you have. Shorter growing season smaller harvest. But for a few dollars for a pack of seeds, might be worth a try. 

I'm in zone 5A and we had ground cherries when I was young. Used solely for pies but was a favorite of ours. Since our canning shelves are stocked pretty well still, we plan to buy some seeds and give a ground cherry wine and pie a try. And yes, it was @BigDaveK who grew them. 

For more ideas, you might look at a couple of books like "Mary's Recipes" or Jack Keller's book on Country Wines. That would give you many ideas to pick from. 
Good luck


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## BigDaveK (Mar 27, 2022)

While I was picking out beet seeds I stumbled on the New Hanover ground cherry. I've been growing Aunt Molly. The description says it's more fruity and less tart. I'll find out! Growing both this year.


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## Darrell Hawley (Mar 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I had to look them up. Hardy to zone 4. Unfortunately I’m in a zone 3 region.


Zone 3? that sounds like Duluth.


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## hawkwing (Mar 27, 2022)

Darrell Hawley said:


> Zone 3? that sounds like Duluth.


Saskatoon up in Canada actually. My aunt thinks I should grow black currants but I don’t have the space for a big bush. I’m not even sure I have enough space for everything I’ve started already. I’m going to have to try and grow vertically perhaps.


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## hawkwing (Mar 27, 2022)

Khristyjeff said:


> Ground Cherries are an annual although will come back from previous year's seeds sometimes. The more important thing to note is how many warm days you have. Shorter growing season smaller harvest. But for a few dollars for a pack of seeds, might be worth a try.
> 
> I'm in zone 5A and we had ground cherries when I was young. Used solely for pies but was a favorite of ours. Since our canning shelves are stocked pretty well still, we plan to buy some seeds and give a ground cherry wine and pie a try. And yes, it was @BigDaveK who grew them.
> 
> ...


I’ve never had ground cherries. But now I want to try the pie. Can they be grown vertically on a fence perhaps? I want to try them but not sure I’ll have room without sacrificing something else.

I will likely have beets to try as well. But I might have to freeze or store them for a bit first. Especially if I get some imported wine grapes this fall.


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## CortneyD (Mar 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’ve never had ground cherries. But now I want to try the pie. Can they be grown vertically on a fence perhaps? I want to try them but not sure I’ll have room without sacrificing something else.
> 
> I will likely have beets to try as well. But I might have to freeze or store them for a bit first. Especially if I get some imported wine grapes this fall.


They aren't suited to growing vertically, they end up more like small shrubs, but you could absolutely grow one in a container!


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## hawkwing (Mar 27, 2022)

CortneyD said:


> They aren't suited to growing vertically, they end up more like small shrubs, but you could absolutely grow one in a container!


How much can you get from a single plant? Enough for a pie or more?


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## CortneyD (Mar 28, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> How much can you get from a single plant? Enough for a pie or more?


They're pretty prolific, but you might need two for a pie? Its hard to say but whenever I plant them I put in two.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 28, 2022)

I agree with everything @CortneyD said. Remember they freeze well. Once they start producing it's pretty much non-stop until frost. And they're not on the plant as long as other garden crops. So harvest, freeze, harvest, freeze...


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## vinny (Mar 28, 2022)

I made a carrot wine once. It was very good while still in primary. Not like carrot, just a nice dry white.

I juiced the carrots. Is this what most people would suggest? Is adding a pulp bag back of any possible benefit?

I'm listing mostly so I can come to jog my memory, but in my garden my prospective wines are;

Carrot
Beet
Raspberry
Rhubarb
Strawberry
Tomato
Cucumber

I might try melons if permitted the space

Has anyone ever heard of Chaga wine? It's not in the garden, but there is lots on the property


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## BigDaveK (Mar 28, 2022)

vinny said:


> I made a carrot wine once. It was very good while still in primary. Not like carrot, just a nice dry white.
> 
> I juiced the carrots. Is this what most people would suggest? Is adding a pulp bag back of any possible benefit?


Yes, carrot wine is on my list for this year, too!
As with recipes for other wines, there are so many ways to prep and use the carrots. We just need to pick one! If I were making it today I would shred and use a bag. That may or may not change when the time comes.

This year I'm growing Black Nebula from Baker Creek. Sweet and dark dark purple. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## hawkwing (Mar 28, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> Yes, carrot wine is on my list for this year, too!
> As with recipes for other wines, there are so many ways to prep and use the carrots. We just need to pick one! If I were making it today I would shred and use a bag. That may or may not change when the time comes.
> 
> This year I'm growing Black Nebula from Baker Creek. Sweet and dark dark purple. Keeping my fingers crossed.


Black carrots would likely make a nice color. Apparently they don’t taste like carrots. Might be like the difference between carrots and parsnips. Can anyone describe the taste or compare it to something?


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## vinny (Mar 28, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> Yes, carrot wine is on my list for this year, too!
> As with recipes for other wines, there are so many ways to prep and use the carrots. We just need to pick one! If I were making it today I would shred and use a bag. That may or may not change when the time comes.
> 
> This year I'm growing Black Nebula from Baker Creek. Sweet and dark dark purple. Keeping my fingers crossed.



Interesting I never thought of using the colored varieties. That would be fun


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## BigDaveK (Mar 29, 2022)

vinny said:


> Interesting I never thought of using the colored varieties. That would be fun


I hope so. When I add a wine to the to-do list I always consider the color component. I just started a cabbage wine. Naturally I had to use red cabbage.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 29, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Black carrots would likely make a nice color. Apparently they don’t taste like carrots. Might be like the difference between carrots and parsnips. Can anyone describe the taste or compare it to something?


I've led a sheltered life - I have no idea what parsnips taste like.


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## hawkwing (Mar 29, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I've led a sheltered life - I have no idea what parsnips taste like.


They are really good sliced and fried. Not as good boiled. But they are best in a frost zone. You don't dig them until after a hard frost. Or even in spring. The frost sweetens them.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 29, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> They are really good sliced and fried. Not as good boiled. But they are best in a frost zone. You don't dig them until after a hard frost. Or even in spring. The frost sweetens them.


I slice them the long way and roast them in oven. Going to try the air fryer this year. I had a few manage to survive the unusual heat this spring, not really any frost it’s year, and it was coldest when they were small. So probably not sweet. Roasted parsnips and roasted carrots together are a nice side dish. I’m not sure why you would make parsnip wine other than you had an abundance of parsnips.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 29, 2022)

Okay, @FlamingoEmporium and @hawkwing , you got me curious - I put parsnips on this weeks grocery list.

And of course I had to do a search for parsnip wine recipes. YIKES, there's a boatload!! If I can find them at a farmer's market....well, you know the rest.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 29, 2022)

They aren’t a real popular vegetable, so talk to the produce guy ask if he can mark them down for you.


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## Jovimaple (Mar 29, 2022)

@hawkwing Tomato wine has been described as similar to a chardonnay, and mine has a slight aftertaste that you can recognize as tomato if you know that's what the wine is made from, but otherwise leaves people guessing.

I am really enjoying what I made last year and plan to double or triple my tomato plants to get enough for a bigger batch.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 30, 2022)

Jovimaple said:


> @hawkwing Tomato wine has been described as similar to a chardonnay, and mine has a slight aftertaste that you can recognize as tomato if you know that's what the wine is made from, but otherwise leaves people guessing.
> 
> I am really enjoying what I made last year and plan to double or triple my tomato plants to get enough for a bigger batch.



I completely agree!! My experimental tomato wine blew me away. Now I'm wondering if I should continue the experiment this year. Should I make a big mixed batch or have smaller varietal batches?


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## ChuckD (Mar 30, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> Now I'm wondering if I should continue the experiment this year. Should I make a big mixed batch or have smaller varietal batches?


Yes


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## Jovimaple (Mar 30, 2022)

Neither of my batches were single varietal. One was from 4 different kinds from my garden and the other was from a whole bunch of different kinds I was allowed to pick from a farmer just before a late freeze in October last year - no idea what kinds. 

I need to do a taste test between my batches to see if there is much of a difference.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 30, 2022)

I had read where making good apple wine calls for using a variety of apples. I wonder if the same holds true for tomato wine?


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## FlamingoEmporium (Mar 30, 2022)

Khristyjeff said:


> I had read where making good apple wine calls for using a variety of apples. I wonder if the same holds true for tomato wine?


If that’s true, plant some Sun Gold cherry tomatoes. So yummy.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 30, 2022)

Khristyjeff said:


> I had read where making good apple wine calls for using a variety of apples. I wonder if the same holds true for tomato wine?


My apple wine was 100% Granny Smith juice only because Mother Nature thought a late frost would be funny. I'm very happy with it, still tasted like apple going into the bottle, but I'd love to try a variety.

On the other hand, my tomato wine had 6 different tomatoes and shocked me with it's flavor. Incredible! Depending on yield, I'd like to try some small 1 tomato batches as a test - but I'll still do a big mixed batch.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 30, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> My apple wine was 100% Granny Smith juice only because Mother Nature thought a late frost would be funny. I'm very happy with it, still tasted like apple going into the bottle, but I'd love to try a variety.
> 
> On the other hand, my tomato wine had 6 different tomatoes and shocked me with it's flavor. Incredible! Depending on yield, I'd like to try some small 1 tomato batches as a test - but I'll still do a big mixed batch.


Sounds like you'll have some good options for experimentation!


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## Raptor99 (Mar 30, 2022)

How ripe were the tomatoes you used? I tried one batch with very ripe tomoatoes, but it ended up tasting like rotten tomatoes. So is it better to use slightly under-ripe tomatoes? I even saw one recipe for green tomato wine.


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## BigDaveK (Mar 31, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> How ripe were the tomatoes you used? I tried one batch with very ripe tomoatoes, but it ended up tasting like rotten tomatoes. So is it better to use slightly under-ripe tomatoes? I even saw one recipe for green tomato wine.


Eating ripe I'd say.
Freeze until you have enough. And the freezing really breaks them down - very soupy when thawed.
Most recipes I saw called for 3 #'s tomatoes. (Seems like most country wine recipes call for 3 #'s of whatever.) I used about 5 #'s.
I've seen green tomato wine recipes. I think that's more of an end-of-year-use-up-the-tomatoes recipe.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 31, 2022)

The term I use for black current is “musky”. It is a fairly dominant flavor in a mix. I am tempted to say it is an acquired taste since the wife won’t drink black current.


hawkwing said:


> Black carrots would likely make a nice color. Apparently they don’t taste like carrots. Might be like the difference between carrots and parsnips. Can anyone describe the taste or compare it to something?


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## hawkwing (Mar 31, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> The term I use for black current is “musky”. It is a fairly dominant flavor in a mix. I am tempted to say it is an acquired taste since the wife won’t drink black current.


Is that currant or carrot? I’ve had current and it was good.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 31, 2022)

There are black currants and "black Zante or Corinth currants". The Zante or Corinth currants are really dried grapes. I discovered that the black currants I bought in Tesco were Corinth currants or the grapes. Anyway, I would say the wine made from real currants is very different than wine made with Zante or Corinth currants. I use the Zante/Corinth in many wines and made a dry cranberry/Zante currant wine that is a very nice, dry rose.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 31, 2022)

@VinesnBines is correct. I just searched this topic and here is a link I found: Zante Currant Vs. Blackcurrant: What’s The Difference? - Smallkitchenguide

I've only been able to find Black Zante Currants in the stores (and they taste to me like tiny raisins) The article states:
"Zante currants are gotten from black corinth grapes which are dried to produce raisins, blackcurrant berries are obtained fresh from the shrubs of ribes nigrum." They are supposedly related to gooseberries, with smooth skins, high in vitamin C, and mainly grown overseas. I'm thinking that @Rice_Guy is talking about real black currants and not the Zante currants I've been using.


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## hawkwing (Mar 31, 2022)

The currant wine I had was from a bush in my aunts garden. Unfortunately she move to town.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 31, 2022)

There are also black carrots! They would make an interesting wine.


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## BigDaveK (May 1, 2022)

A few years ago I began starting plants indoors. Each year I added more grow lights and more seeds. This is the second year where ALL my vegetables and new flowers are from seed. Went to a big box store today - $4.99 a pot for vegetables!!!! Burpee plants. Seriously!!?? Who the heck can have a decent sized garden at those prices?

Haven't been to a nursery yet - which is where I bought my live plants in the past. They're usually more reasonable but now I'm really curious.


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## hawkwing (May 1, 2022)

This is my first year starting plants early indoors. No grow light yet but it would cost a lot to buy all the plants. I spent way more last year just for some tomatoes. This year I will have a full garden. Depending on the weather I should be able to transfer them outside in 2-4 weeks.


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## balatonwine (May 4, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> A few years ago I began starting plants indoors. Each year I added more grow lights and more seeds. This is the second year where ALL my vegetables and new flowers are from seed. Went to a big box store today - $4.99 a pot for vegetables!!!! Burpee plants. Seriously!!?? Who the heck can have a decent sized garden at those prices?



Well, it depends. You have to factor in many issues. Such as, having space to grow plants indoors (not everyone does, and space includes property taxes on house size). Grow lights cost money to buy and run (electricity is not free, and may become more expensive over time). So also an expense to factor in (but the purchase cost can be amortized).

So in the end, one must do the math. Even if a plant for food production purchased at a nursery costs more than you can self produce, the ultimate question is not its costs, but if the produced produce from either is less than than the cost of buying directly. If both are less costly, then you saved money. Then the only issue is the amount of money saved, not "*if*" you saved money. If not, then better to simply maybe grow a rock garden (that way ones saves money in water bills).....


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## BigDaveK (May 8, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Well, it depends. You have to factor in many issues. Such as, having space to grow plants indoors (not everyone does, and space includes property taxes on house size). Grow lights cost money to buy and run (electricity is not free, and may become more expensive over time). So also an expense to factor in (but the purchase cost can be amortized).
> 
> So in the end, one must do the math. Even if a plant for food production purchased at a nursery costs more than you can self produce, the ultimate question is not its costs, but if the produced produce from either is less than than the cost of buying directly. If both are less costly, then you saved money. Then the only issue is the amount of money saved, not "*if*" you saved money. If not, then better to simply maybe grow a rock garden (that way ones saves money in water bills).....


You make a number of good points. To me the ultimate goal is flavor. I don't care for most grocery store produce - especially those that don't store well and are harvested before ripeness for logistic reasons. Farmer's markets are an excellent alternative and supplement what I don't grow.
I have about $150 in LED grow lights, seeds are saved and purchased, pots saved and re-used, space minimal, and I admit I don't think about electricity. I also grow varieties that aren't generally available. I'm certain I save money - and I'm having fun!


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## hawkwing (May 8, 2022)

You could also take that to the point of why are you paying for a yard and taxes on it when you could live in a smaller place and not have a yard. 

The space for starting plants is only temporary so it can be crowded for a month or two. No big deal. Depends if you enjoy it. 

Home grown is almost always better tasting. Sure it’s work. But I could do many things that are debatably more of a waste of time and resources.


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