# Question on PH and CO2



## Main man (Aug 5, 2020)

Hi:

I posted this on the Beginners side of this forum and received only one reply. I'm hoping someone might see it here and help me.

I started 4 different kits back in early May. Is it normal for the Ph in my kits to rise as they are aging in carboys? My cabernet kit now is at 3.75 an my Zin is at 3.68 which is around a .1 rise in 30 days for each. I'm wondering if this is normal or what may be causing this and what I can/should do to correct it? Also, how long does it take for the CO2 to settle down? Each kit seems a little fizzy still. I have chosen to let them sit in the carboys until I need the carboys this fall so I have another month or two before I bottle. Any help is appreciated


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## cmason1957 (Aug 5, 2020)

Ph will rise a bit during aging, CO2 tends to look like acid. How much, I can't tell you. I generally don't measure ph in kits and for red wines I make from grapes or juice, not until I am ready to bottle, which is about a year from start of fermentation.


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 5, 2020)

OH, ,,,,, another possibility, you may have a yeast or bacterial strain in your winery that metabolizes malic acid.


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## KCCam (Aug 5, 2020)

Main man said:


> Hi:
> 
> I posted this on the Beginners side of this forum and received only one reply. I'm hoping someone might see it here and help me.
> 
> I started 4 different kits back in early May. Is it normal for the Ph in my kits to rise as they are aging in carboys? My cabernet kit now is at 3.75 an my Zin is at 3.68 which is around a .1 rise in 30 days for each. I'm wondering if this is normal or what may be causing this and what I can/should do to correct it? Also, how long does it take for the CO2 to settle down? Each kit seems a little fizzy still. I have chosen to let them sit in the carboys until I need the carboys this fall so I have another month or two before I bottle. Any help is appreciated


Kits are designed by the manufacturers to satisfy 99% of their customers when following the directions word for word. There are lots of tweaks you can make once you understand the chemistry and art involved, but even @cmason1957 (who is very accomplished, and respected here) says he generally doesn't check the pH of his kit wines. Since you have a pH meter (most beginners don't -- I don't (yet)), I would use it to make notes. Keep a record of the pH before pitching the yeast, and then at every SG check. Taste along the way. Don't adjust anything in a kit until you have a good idea of how it was intended to turn out. *Then *start tweaking. You'll have a baseline to compare to.

As far as how long will it take the CO2 to settle down? That's like asking how long will it take wine to ferment. Too many variables to even guess most of the time. The 3 most common ways (to my knowledge) to help degas your wine are: stirring vigorously in the carboy (as kit directions might suggest), applying a vacuum (as a lot of us do with our AIO pumps), and time. I've read comments about wines that are still a bit fizzy after 3 months. With my AIO pump, my last 2 batches of Dragon Blood were done in a day.


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 6, 2020)

Main man said:


> which is around a .1 rise in 30 days for each



You are probably already properly cleaning the electrode after use, storing it in the right solution, and calibrating the meter before each use. But it's worth stressing those since I've noticed my pH electrode drifting as much as 0.2 over a month between calibrations.


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2020)

Main man said:


> Hi:
> 
> I posted this on the Beginners side of this forum and received only one reply. I'm hoping someone might see it here and help me.
> 
> I started 4 different kits back in early May. Is it normal for the Ph in my kits to rise as they are aging in carboys? My cabernet kit now is at 3.75 an my Zin is at 3.68 which is around a .1 rise in 30 days for each. I'm wondering if this is normal or what may be causing this and what I can/should do to correct it? Also, how long does it take for the CO2 to settle down? Each kit seems a little fizzy still. I have chosen to let them sit in the carboys until I need the carboys this fall so I have another month or two before I bottle. Any help is appreciated



I suspect that it’s not that your wine pH is rising as it ages, but is instead your meter is becoming more correct as your wine degasses. Your meter is being tricked by CO2 into thinking the pH is lower than it really is.

Once alcoholic fermentation begins, so does the production of CO2, which quickly saturates the liguid. As long as CO2 is present in your wine, readings from a pH meter will not be accurate. When we want accurate pH readings from carbonated wine, it must be degassed first. Take a small quantity of wine and heat it into the 90’s, put it into a test tube or similar vessel, cover the open end, and shake it, then remove your finger to release gas Repeat until there is none. Now run your pH test.

This is a completely normal situation, we face it with kits, grapes, fruit wines, frankly, anything you can ferment. The length of time it takes your wine to release all of its CO2 isn’t a standard time, all wines are different.


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## Main man (Aug 6, 2020)

This is great! Thank you all for the information. I want to bottle in a month or two. Do I need to be concerned with the amount of CO2 still in it when I bottle?


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## cmason1957 (Aug 6, 2020)

Main man said:


> This is great! Thank you all for the information. I want to bottle in a month or two. Do I need to be concerned with the amount of CO2 still in it when I bottle?



If you bottle it with CO2 still in, you will have fizzy wine, when you pop those corks and it won't be good as long as it might. That CO2 also impacts the taste and not in a really good way.


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## kuziwk (Aug 6, 2020)

Main man said:


> Hi:
> 
> I posted this on the Beginners side of this forum and received only one reply. I'm hoping someone might see it here and help me.
> 
> I started 4 different kits back in early May. Is it normal for the Ph in my kits to rise as they are aging in carboys? My cabernet kit now is at 3.75 an my Zin is at 3.68 which is around a .1 rise in 30 days for each. I'm wondering if this is normal or what may be causing this and what I can/should do to correct it? Also, how long does it take for the CO2 to settle down? Each kit seems a little fizzy still. I have chosen to let them sit in the carboys until I need the carboys this fall so I have another month or two before I bottle. Any help is appreciated



Ive never used my PH meter so far it’s just been sitting there, I usually have a nice number of what I want for sulfites before bottling which is hovering somewhere just under 50PPM for most. Is there any particular reason as to why you are checking PH though if you’re not testing for sulfites? Regarding the fizz, I use a wine whip on a drill quickly switching directions back and forth for 4 minutes. It typically removes most of the CO2 but there always seem to be A slight amount Left, the batches I haven’t bulk aged for more than 6 months sometimes end up bottled with fizz. It will slow down bottle aging, however if you decant the wine before serving or shake up the bottle before serving it will remove it. If not removed in a red it will make it taste bitter and throw everything else off. Some guys use a vacuum pump Which works better, ive also heard of carboys imploding though so I just stick to a wine whip and bulk aging for at least 6 months. Fizz in a white wine though is actually okay and desired in some cases, you can typically get away with a little bit. It also helps protect the white wine since it’s more delicate than red.


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## pillswoj (Aug 6, 2020)

Johnd said:


> I suspect that it’s not that your wine pH is rising as it ages, but is instead your meter is becoming more correct as your wine degasses. Your meter is being tricked by CO2 into thinking the pH is lower than it really is.
> 
> Once alcoholic fermentation begins, so does the production of CO2, which quickly saturates the liguid. As long as CO2 is present in your wine, readings from a pH meter will not be accurate. When we want accurate pH readings from carbonated wine, it must be degassed first. Take a small quantity of wine and heat it into the 90’s, put it into a test tube or similar vessel, cover the open end, and shake it, then remove your finger to release gas Repeat until there is none. Now run your pH test.
> 
> This is a completely normal situation, we face it with kits, grapes, fruit wines, frankly, anything you can ferment. The length of time it takes your wine to release all of its CO2 isn’t a standard time, all wines are different.



Sorry to be picky but as a Chemist- the pH meter is not becoming more correct, is is reading the actual pH of the wine at each point in time assuming it is properly calculated. Dissolved CO2 is an acid so the wine is indeed at a lower pH while the CO2 is in there as the wine degasses the pH will go up.

Also to be noted the pH reading will also be affected by temperature if your meter does not have ATC (Automatic Temperature Correction).


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2020)

pillswoj said:


> Sorry to be picky but as a Chemist- the pH meter is not becoming more correct, is is reading the actual pH of the wine at each point in time assuming it is properly calculated. Dissolved CO2 is an acid so the wine is indeed at a lower pH while the CO2 is in there as the wine degasses the pH will go up.


Understood, I was just trying to make it a bit more understandable for the OP. The meter does indeed read the actual pH at the time a reading is made. It’s not the same pH the wine will ultimately be with no CO2 on board.


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## Main man (Aug 7, 2020)

Great information! Thank you. I'm at 3 months roughly on the kits. If I attempt to degas now in the carboys, don't I run the risk of oxygenating the wine? 

I need to look into how to test for sulfites. I have not figured out all the chemistry yet. What do I need to test for sulfites?


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 7, 2020)

The easiest way to check SO2 is with a vinmetrica. Wet chemistry is a pain unless you have a commercial lab with all the toys/ glassware. ,,,, If you are doing whites and fruit wine a quick and dirty guess is it will test at 0 or a trace SO2. Reds? I don’t have enough experience,

For years I have seen judged wine with a hint of bubbles on the glass, the teams sometimes note this but normally do not dock the sample. Looking at samples with slight bubble formation I have so far always been able to produce nicely defined bubble release by applying a light 5 or 10 inch vacuum.
My feeling about CO2 changed last year at Winemaker conference, it is reductive which helps protect the wine from oxidation/ fill the head space therefore I don’t look and say I need to be squeaky clean. ,,, (I am a recovering no bubble person)

Back to carbonation from posts above ,,, a few examples:
cream soda. , , , . , , W 3.10. WO 3.14
beer. , , , , , , , , , , , , W 4.30. WO 4.37
Cola soda. , , , , , , , W 2.49. WO 2.49 (a phosphoric acid system)
citrus soda. , , , , , , W 2.98. WO 3.04 (a citric acid system)
sparkling water. , , , W 3.5. WO 7.2 (a non buffered system)
Brachetto (6%OH). , W 3.36. WO 3.34 (carbonated Italian grape)

..... the change seems to be more obvious in a drop on TA when carbonated ,,, ie the manufacturer does it for flavor impact more than pH. ....


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## kuziwk (Aug 7, 2020)

Main man said:


> Great information! Thank you. I'm at 3 months roughly on the kits. If I attempt to degas now in the carboys, don't I run the risk of oxygenating the wine?
> 
> I need to look into how to test for sulfites. I have not figured out all the chemistry yet. What do I need to test for sulfites?


Not necessarily, When you whip the wine you should do so in a controlled manner and switch directions every 20 seconds or so to prevent a vortex from forming. You are really just agitating the CO2 from the wine, where the bulk aging should take care of the rest. You also have the CO2 protecting the wine aswell. If you let it bulk age for 10 months or so racking a few times that could also take care of the CO2. How much sulfite have you added up to this point? You want to make sure you have at least added 4G to 4.5G or so when the fermentation was done before you do any racking or stick a wine whip in there. You could also try the vacuum method, however most of my carboys are used from thrift stores and garage sales since i have about 20 of them...I’m not sure i would trust any of my carboys to not implode on me from the pressure ruining the wine, my floor and potentially injuring me. Also some CO2 is ok especially for whites as mentioned above, you may not necessarily taste it on your tongue but if you shook the bottle you could hear it. Decanting and sloshing/aerating also gets rid of it. If your carboys are new it could be worth a try, there are a ton of different cheap methods to google rather than buying a pump.

As for testing sulfites, you don’t need a Lab just some chemicals and graduating beakers. The cheapest and most accurate way to do this at home is with the Oxygen aeration method. If you live in the USA everything should be pretty easy to get. I live in canada and its a little harder but i get everything from BOSA Grape in western canada and i made all the fittings i needed rather than buying it direct from Morewinemaking.com Which would not sell their kit across the border due to the chemicals. If you do live in the USA just simply buy their Mt140 kit. If you do not buy their kit you can use their instruction online either way. You will have to re-purchase some of the chemicals every 6 months as they have a shelf life, but its pretty cheap when you average your overall wine cost for the year.

In a nutshell for testing sulfites you have Two beakers (1 and 2). Beaker 1 has a measured sample of wine (20ML) and phosphoric acid(10ML). Beaker 2 has hydrogen peroxide(10ML, drug store type), distilled water(40ML) and a S02 indicator (6 Drops) which changes color depending on how acidic or base the solution is (Pink for acidic, grey for neutral, green for base). Beaker 2 gets a tube going down into its solution, the other end gets placed Just past the top of beaker 1 But not in the solution. Beaker 1 than gets another second tube but down into the solution this time with the other end going into a cheap aquarium pump. Note that beaker 1 needs to be sealed tight, the best way is to purchase or drill your own rubber bungs And feed the tubes through it so you can seal up your beaker around the tubes. Let the pump run for 15-20 minutes, during this time the wine solution mixed with the phosphoric acid and bubbling from the pump turns the sulfites in the wine into sulfuric acid and forces it into the beaker with the indicator solution through the tube. When this is done you are left with the indicator solution/distilled water/hydrogen peroxide in beaker 2 which should now be pink, now you add sodium hydroxide at very small intervals or drops to change the now pink solution back to a baseline color of greenish grey. Each 1ML addition required of sodium hydroxide to bring it back to the base color gets multiplied by 16 which will indicate how much free sulfite is protecting your wine. It sounds complicated but its not, i not a chemist in fact i hated chemistry in school. The vinmetrica is an electronic method which still required chemicals that have a shelf life, its both more expensive and less accurate.

I should do a YouTube video, i wish i had that when i first started testing. It’s much more complicated to explain than the actual process which is otherwise easy.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 7, 2020)

Main man said:


> Great information! Thank you. I'm at 3 months roughly on the kits. If I attempt to degas now in the carboys, don't I run the risk of oxygenating the wine?
> 
> I need to look into how to test for sulfites. I have not figured out all the chemistry yet. What do I need to test for sulfites?


As long as there’s co2 n the wine then it won’t oxidize. co2 present protects against that. So you can drill it up getting that white co2 fizz. Let it dissipate and drill some more till it’s gone. Higher temps make this easier. Fizzy foam will eventually turn into larger bubbles. That’s o2. - that means you are done—or you could just wait and let nature run it’s course too. 

Testing Ph for sulphites on kit wine isn’t really necessary. You can safely add 1/4tsp per 5-6gal and not worry about it. Kits acids are pre-balanced so shouldn’t have any curveballs to account for If ya really wanted to test anyway there’s an easy & cheap way using titrets.





Cheaply testing so2


So2 testing ain’t cheap. And I know lots of people avoid those titrets for red wine. It says so right on the packaging “recommended for white wines”. But they CAN be used for red wine. It’s just not as easy to see color change. They give accurate enough readings for what we need. And...




www.winemakingtalk.com


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## kuziwk (Aug 7, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> As long as there’s co2 n the wine then it won’t oxidize. co2 present protects against that. So you can drill it up getting that white co2 fizz. Let it dissipate and drill some more till it’s gone. Higher temps make this easier. Fizzy foam will eventually turn into larger bubbles. That’s o2. - that means you are done—or you could just wait and let nature run it’s course too.
> 
> Testing Ph for sulphites on kit wine isn’t really necessary. You can safely add 1/4tsp per 5-6gal and not worry about it. Kits acids are pre-balanced so shouldn’t have any curveballs to account for If ya really wanted to test anyway there’s an easy & cheap way using titrets.
> 
> ...



PH relates directly to sulfite levels, however I don’t really test For PH either. I’m typically hovering around the max sulfite level that will pretty much protect anything, which is around 50PPM When i bottle. I cannot taste it it at that level so I don’t bother testing PH in kits. Titrations are horribly inaccurate for reds, they are also cost a lot more than the Aeration oxygen method Over time. 1/4 TSP for sure is enough, however I’ve found that when it comes time to bottling sometimes i have way too much which is why I started testing and in many cases I’m skipping the final dose prior to bottling. Unfortunately there are too many factors that prevent duplicating sulfite levels to try and guess what it is, even down to the type and style of stopper used and the manufacturing tolerances in the carboy necks. So one does not have to test...true but its the only method to guarantee your wine wont come out with a sulfite aroma.


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## Main man (Aug 7, 2020)

Thanks everyone.

Ajmassa said "Higher temps make this easier". I have my carboys in a home built cooling area that is chilled by an air conditioner. It seems to hold right at 65 degrees. If I move them out just to degass, what is considered a higher temp? I'm in Nor Cal and it is supposed to be around 107 for a couple of days. Is there an optimal temp?

Also, are there reasonably priced testing labs out there that you can send samples into? If anybody can recommend one, I would appreciate hearing about it. I don't have a lab near me that would do that type of testing.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 7, 2020)

Main man said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Ajmassa said "Higher temps make this easier". I have my carboys in a home built cooling area that is chilled by an air conditioner. It seems to hold right at 65 degrees. If I move them out just to degass, what is considered a higher temp? I'm in Nor Cal and it is supposed to be around 107 for a couple of days. Is there an optimal temp?


Anything above room temperature I think. When the wine is cooler like in the mid 60’s or lower it makes a portion of the co2 stubborn and impossible to release. But at say 75° you’ll notice the wine much more agreeable to degassing.


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## KCCam (Aug 7, 2020)

Main man said:


> are there reasonably priced testing labs out there


I would say that's *WAY *overkill. Especially if you're a beginner and/or making kits. No need to test anything on a kit, unless you are tweaking it. If you are making your own wine, I think as a beginner, the biggest concern would be pH, and a cheap meter would suffice.


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## familynerone (Aug 8, 2020)

Main man said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Ajmassa said "Higher temps make this easier". I have my carboys in a home built cooling area that is chilled by an air conditioner. It seems to hold right at 65 degrees. If I move them out just to degass, what is considered a higher temp? I'm in Nor Cal and it is supposed to be around 107 for a couple of days. Is there an optimal temp?
> 
> Also, are there reasonably priced testing labs out there that you can send samples into? If anybody can recommend one, I would appreciate hearing about it. I don't have a lab near me that would do that type of testing.



You could also get simple pH test strips, fairly cheap (under ten bucks) for 100-pack. I use these only out of curiosity (to learn as I begin tampering with my processes). As I only make wines from kits at this point I do not feel the need to do anything more involved or pricier.


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## cmason1957 (Aug 8, 2020)

familynerone said:


> You could also get simple pH test strips, fairly cheap (under ten bucks) for 100-pack. I use these only out of curiosity (to learn as I begin tampering with my processes). As I only make wines from kits at this point I do not feel the need to do anything more involved or pricier.


Those test strips aren't really worth a plugged nickel. They are potentially accurate to 0.5 ph and I say potentially due to the error in reading the color change in a red wine. Spend $20-30 and get a cheap ph meter.


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## KCCam (Aug 9, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> As long as there’s co2 n the wine then it won’t oxidize. co2 present protects against that.


Where did you read that? There’s always _some _CO2 present. I believe a large amount of CO2 in solution reduces the solubility of oxygen, but doesn’t remove it. 


Ajmassa said:


> Fizzy foam will eventually turn into larger bubbles. That’s o2.


I don’t think that's the case. Big bubbles are likely still CO2. I think it was @sour_grapes that had a good explanation of the bubble size. It's all related to surface tension, nucleation sites, CO2 saturation, and the depth that the bubble originates at, I believe. But you are right that it occurs once most of the CO2 has come out of solution.


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 9, 2020)

Agreed, the solubility of any gas is related to the partial pressure of the gas above the solution. ,,, essentially percentage ,,, . No we can not change the solubility of atmospheric O2 into our wine (remove it) so we work to have good air locks, seated corks etc. to minimize the percentage of oxygen in the head space and yes there is normally some CO2 dissolved in wine and ready to come out of solution where it can do protective work in flushing the total volume of gas mixture in the head space and as a result decrease the relative percentage of oxygen in the head space. (or go back in solution if we were squeaky clean at degassing 2)


KCCam said:


> Where did you read that? There’s always _some _CO2 present. I believe a large amount of CO2 in solution reduces the solubility of oxygen, but doesn’t remove it.


If you search WMT there are several threads which go into gases effect in protection of wine


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## Ajmassa (Aug 9, 2020)

KCCam said:


> Where did you read that? There’s always _some _CO2 present. I believe a large amount of CO2 in solution reduces the solubility of oxygen, but doesn’t remove it.



im not talkin in a technical and scientific sense with that. I’m speaking specifically in noob winemaking language.
—**If loaded with co2- no need to sweat oxidation from o2 exposure**—

So throw all the chemistry technicalities out the window. A wine fresh after fermentation is loaded with co2. Overloaded. Until that co2 has dissipated over time you will not oxidize from air exposure. If there was prolonged o2 exposure in a co2 loaded wine— the co2 would dissipate first THEN would oxidize. It won’t oxidize while loaded with co2.

therefore I’m never too concerned with o2 exposure early on. This is also the reason we can get away with not topping up right away. It’s the reason kits instructions don’t advise to top up until the very end at the bottling step.
“if not bottling and choose to age in bulk then dose with so2, and top up with water or similar wine”. Because ther is co2 present and the wine isn’t going to oxidize in those few weeks because of some headspace.

also is why I don’t degas manually. I view co2 as a good thing. Extra protection in the beginning.
Obviously many things factor into how long it lasts. Abv, Acid levels, temps, headspace, so2 etc


KCCam said:


> I don’t think that's the case. Big bubbles are likely still CO2.



again- strictly noob winemaking terms. I don’t dispute @sour_grapes scientific bubble info. I don’t dispute much anything from sourgrapes unless I’m 100% positive and ready to battle with my A game and some new impressive vocabulary words lol. 
Just talking from personal experience degassing. I used to use a drill and also VacuVin pimp. Initially the bubbles generated are white foam/fizz. Looking exactly like head on a beer.
Eventually that fizz becomes less fizzy and more bubbly. When there’s no more fizz generated we have removed as much co2 as we are able. Even if all removed tho you still can generate bubbles. Larger bubbles. I’m saying those larger bubbles = no more degassing is needed. 

Simply put, as far as a new winemaker is concerned:
Co2 noticeably present= no worry about oxidation
Degassing= Finished when no more fizz generated


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## KCCam (Aug 9, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> im not talkin in a technical and scientific sense with that. I’m speaking specifically in noob winemaking language.
> —**If loaded with co2- no need to sweat oxidation from o2 exposure**—
> 
> So throw all the chemistry technicalities out the window. A wine fresh after fermentation is loaded with co2. Overloaded. Until that co2 has dissipated over time you will not oxidize from air exposure. If there was prolonged o2 exposure in a co2 loaded wine— the co2 would dissipate first THEN would oxidize. It won’t oxidize while loaded with co2.
> ...


Very nice explanation, thank you.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 9, 2020)

KCCam said:


> Very nice explanation, thank you.


I try not to get too wrapped up in the science. Just want enough understanding to be able make confident winemaking decisions. (To keep it real I admit sometimes I’ll nerd out and fall into a rabbit hole of different things like say, mlf studies on sequential vs co-inoculation for example.)

I’ve said this before many times, but I’ll keep on saying it —Learning the hobby from my “Old Style” winemaking family (no tests,additives, so2, concern for o2 etc etc) has helped me tremendously. Knowing how resilient wine can be even if almost every single accepted safe practice is ignored gave unique perspective! Lol.
Rather than say, cutting your teeth on kits. Forcing you to live and die by those instructions often getting hung up on minor details before fully understanding things. 

Top 3 things that have helped my winemaking
1.This forum
2. Guide to red winemaking (My Bible!) 
3. Growing up with winemaking


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## sour_grapes (Aug 9, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> I’ve said this before many times, but I’ll keep on saying it —Learning the hobby from my “Old Style” winemaking family (no tests,additives, so2, concern for o2 etc etc) has helped me tremendously. Knowing how resilient wine can be even if almost every single accepted safe practice is ignored gave unique perspective! Lol.



Amen. I laugh to think about how utterly stressed I was on the first kit or three. Once I mismanaged the siphon, and (GASP) accidentally touched the vinyl tube before it went into the bucket! _Quelle horreur!_ Should I just give up and throw it away!?!? 

I don't feel like searching for it, but remember that old-timey video someone (@GreginND? @ibglowin?) posted of winemaking in, I think, Sicily or Greece or Macedonia, with lots of shovels and pitchforks and FLIES. I think it is okay if you accidentally touch the siphon hose.


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## ibglowin (Aug 10, 2020)

Came up fast on a quick search using the google........


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## stickman (Aug 10, 2020)

I really like that video, I'm sure they get the "house" flavor profile, with those conditions there's no need for inoculation with commercial yeast or ML bacteria, and using the copper transfer vessel and funnel reduces the H2S risk. It would be nice to have subtitles, the only part I understood was around the 6:38 mark, the younger guy telling the rest that this is old technology.


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## kuziwk (Aug 10, 2020)

KCCam said:


> I would say that's *WAY *overkill. Especially if you're a beginner and/or making kits. No need to test anything on a kit, unless you are tweaking it. If you are making your own wine, I think as a beginner, the biggest concern would be pH, and a cheap meter would suffice.



It’s also super easy to test it yourself and not worth sending to a lab, i found another article here which might be easier to understand than what i posted. You can basically have 95% of the accuracy of the lab at home. The only reason I test is because i bulk age for extended periods and throw the instructions out Along with the clearing agents, in cases of following the kit instructions KCCam is right just follow what they say and you will make some decent wine. Could it be better? Yes but remember that ”better“ is Subjective and you may just be wasting your time At tweaking when you like the kit/wine already.









Managing Sulfites in Wine


Sulfur Dioxide, also known as "sulfite" or SO2 is a commonly misrepresented, yet critical component of wine. In nature, SO2 can occurs as a




www.smartwinemaking.com


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## Ajmassa (Aug 10, 2020)

ibglowin said:


> Came up fast on a quick search using the google........





Good god! Repressed memory floodgates opened! I can even smell it.

That says it all! Seeing some version of this as the winemaking norm tends to help keep things in perspective. Seeing LOTS of similarities from my family here and also in Italy.
I spent a month there when I was 16 with my grandpop & brother. We stayed w/ family outside Rome, on the Amalfi coast near Pompei, but mostly on the Adriatic Coast. Family owns an Alfa Romeo dealership/auto shop outside Ascoli Piceno (known for their Melette Anisette 
) in the beach town San Benedetto called Fratelli Massa.

Every single family we stayed with made their own wine, (and pizza!) and one of their cellars looked exactly like this. I remember thinking the floor troughs & drains looked cool but couldn’t possibly still be used lol. Well I was wrong! One of the coolest things imo was after tasting their wine it was damn near identical to the wine made by us in Philly. For many years we would send bottles to each other until my grandfathers cousin Sentimio eventually passed away. 

A few years after my trip my Italian cousin who now runs the auto shop came here and he stayed with us for couple weeks. I took him to a strip club “Show n Tell” . Wild night. But that’s another story for another day.

First time seeing that video. Brought me bacK. Loved it Thanks for posting again.
And if it’s as similar as I think- I’d bet the farm that the rest of the wives are inside preparing an absolute feast for afterwards!


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## sour_grapes (Aug 10, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Good god! Repressed memory floodgates opened! I can even smell it.
> 
> That says it all! Seeing some version of this as the winemaking norm tends to help keep things in perspective. Seeing LOTS of similarities from my family here and also in Italy.
> I spent a month there when I was 16 with my grandpop & brother. We stayed w/ family outside Rome, on the Amalfi coast near Pompei, but mostly on the Adriatic Coast. Family owns an Alfa Romeo dealership/auto shop outside Ascoli Piceno (known for their Melette Anisette View attachment 64617
> ...



That is awesome. I have spent some time in Ancona (not far from San Benedetto), but it would have been so great to have more local guidance. Nice!


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## Ajmassa (Aug 10, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> That is awesome. I have spent some time in Ancona (not far from San Benedetto), but it would have been so great to have more local guidance. Nice!


Worth its weight in gold! (Which is hitting all time highs. Keep on printing that money! )

A tour guide can make or break the day. And between my brother and grandfather (both spoke Italian) and various family members I felt very fortunate. We never had to use any actual tour guides. Even had a cousin lend me an extra moped and we hit the Saturday night teenager scene together. (No drinking age!)

My brother would be able to reference things I’d appreciate. Like “see that library over there? Remember when Indiana Jones used the rope-stand to bash the floor tile to get underground? X marks the spot? That’s where he did that!” 

And my grandfather was dead set on making a memorable trip, so when not staying with family we stayed at youth hostels —except Venice. That’s where he arranged for us to stay at convent with all the nuns!


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## Ajmassa (Aug 11, 2020)

Main man said:


> Also, how long does it take for the CO2 to settle down? Each kit seems a little fizzy still. I have chosen to let them sit in the carboys until I need the carboys this fall so I have another month or two before I bottle. Any help is appreciated



to bring it back on topic after derailing the thread — if leaving carboys undisturbed then that co2 generated from fermentation can linger a while. this is actually how my grandpop would determine when to bottle. They would rack it off the lees and let it age untouched, tasting along the way. Usually sometime in the spring it was co2 free ~6 mos. earliest.


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## Main man (Aug 11, 2020)

This dialog has been incredible, Ajmassa, and I truly enjoyed the video! Back to topic for me.....since I originally posted this I have come across several additional carboys and will let my kit wine sit for at least 6 months before I consider bottling. Sorry...being a noob..... Is the "tipping point" for bottling as simple as when there is no more fizzyness to the wine or is there another "right time" to bottle?


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## Ajmassa (Aug 12, 2020)

Main man said:


> This dialog has been incredible, Ajmassa, and I truly enjoyed the video! Back to topic for me.....since I originally posted this I have come across several additional carboys and will let my kit wine sit for at least 6 months before I consider bottling. Sorry...being a noob..... Is the "tipping point" for bottling as simple as when there is no more fizzyness to the wine or is there another "right time" to bottle?


Not at all! I didn’t mean it like that. Was just saying how my very very very old school fam used to do it. cool thing about winemaking is that there’s not really a wrong way. Some people bottle earlier and manually get rid of the co2. Others let time do the job and let the wine age in bulk. Routine racking off sediment every few months also helps that co2 go away faster. 

I suppose the longer ya wait the better odds of no sediment in the bottle, clear wine, better idea you have of what it’s gonna be. Leaves options open to tweak if needed, blend or add oak or something. I put it off because 1. I’m a procrastinator. And 2. Once it’s bottled it’s damn near impossible to let it age. The Co2 dissipating and wine clearing are more just a byproduct of that for me
For some it’s a space saving thing. Or freeing up a carboy. Or just antsy. To speed up the process with drilling co2 and clearing agents & basically following kits instructions. 
People on this forum are awesome. Really. A true passion for it. And they genuinely enjoy helping others seeking advice.


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## topkeg (Aug 12, 2020)

Ive only been doing the wine thing about 7 years and like most, patience is the number one problem. Ive had more than my share of bottle blows! Mostly with "skeeter pee". Since SP is generally in good shape to drink in 3 or 4 months, bottling too early is a big risk. Looks clear, then the oxygen during bottling rejuvenates those little rascals and boom, or a few months later it hazes in the bottom of the bottle.


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## Michael Zeller (Mar 29, 2021)

Apologies for resurfacing an old thread, I think I have a CO2 issue with my 2020 wines and this seemed like a good discussion to tag onto rather than starting a new thread.

I have 5 gal of Cab Franc, 6.5 gal of Barbera, and 2x6.5 gal of Zin, all finished primary and ML, and were racked off fine lees and sulfited back in October and put to bed for the winter. When I tested the wines in January, the pH of the Cab Franc was at 3.5 but the Barbera and Zins were around 3.15. So I added potassium carbonate and cold crashed those three, which brought their pH's up to 3.3. So, I thought I was good - racked the wines after cold crashing and left in carboys under solid stopper since the beginning of February. About a month ago, I tasted and tested the wines and everything was still in good shape.

Well, today I tested the wines with a calibrated pH meter and all four of them have seen a fairly consistent .2 drop in pH across all the wines - the Cab Franc is down to 3.3 and the Barbera and Zins are around 3.1. I thought it was odd that the Cab Franc also dropped since I did not cold crash that one. With the drop in pH, the wines are tasting a bit tart.

I racked and sulfited the wines, so I guess I'll find out an answer sooner or later, but I was curious if the drop in pH could be due to built up CO2 since I was using a solid stopper? Could something else cause this change?


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## KCCam (Apr 1, 2021)

Michael Zeller said:


> I was curious if the drop in pH could be due to built up CO2 since I was using a solid stopper?


I can’t speak to the rest, but CO2 comes from fermentation. I assume after all this time that SG is not changing and nothing is left to ferment.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 1, 2021)

When I have tested it seems that there is a consistent drop by 0.2 units pH between the primary and next racking. Also there seems to be a 0.1 gain between primary and where the wine is bottled. We can explain the first gain with CO2 build up and get a better reading by degassing as with a cylinder and vacuum or microwave heat followed by stir and cool back to RT. 
I do not have an explanation for a net gain on finished wine and am curious what others have seen. To me this translates into reduced SO2 activity which I don’t really like.


Michael Zeller said:


> . . . with a calibrated pH meter and all four of them have seen a fairly consistent .2 drop in pH across all the wines - the Cab Franc is down to 3.3 and the Barbera and Zins are around 3.1. I thought it was odd that the Cab Franc also dropped since I did not cold crash that one. With the drop in pH, the wines are tasting a bit tart., , , ? Could something else cause this


All high CO2 beverages will taste more tart ,,, for commercial folks we like the marketing term “it is FRESH tasting”, ,,, and some bottlers will take bulk white wine and carbonate it before packaging.


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## stickman (Apr 1, 2021)

@Michael Zeller Most of the time the pH change upon storage is from tartrates dropping out, if the pH starts below 3.6 the pH will drop, if above 3.6 the pH will increase. Even after cold stabilization, if you add anything that contains potassium, even kmeta, the wine may drop more tartrates and the pH will change accordingly. Check with a flashlight to see if there is any potassium bitartrate "glitter".

Usually when the wine drops tartrates it will taste less tart, even if the resulting pH drops, so I can't say why yours seems to be more tart. If the wine was racked and sulfited and topped up, then microbes generating volatile acidity shouldn't be an issue. Did you test for ML completion? It would be difficult to complete at 3.1 pH, so maybe after raising the pH, some ML activity started once the sulfite levels dropped off during storage, in this case, you may be correct as CO2 might be the issue with tartness.


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## Michael Zeller (Apr 1, 2021)

Thanks all for the responses, I really appreciate the feedback. Using a flashlight, I’m not able to see “glitter”, the wines all look cleared. But after a decent amount of agitation, I’m getting a lot of bubbles and foam - below is a pic. I didn’t degas the wine after primary or ML, so perhaps with using a solid stopper and changes in atmosphere, the CO2 built up? I ordered a wine whip that should be here today, so I’ll see if there’s a change in pH after degassing.

ETA - I do need to top up these carboys but wanted to degas them first. Then I’m planning to rack and sulfite again, and top up.


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