# Adding Solar Panels Thoughts?



## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

I'm seriously considering adding solar panels to the house. Until recently I've viewed it as a trade off offering no real monetary advantage to me. Either pay the electric company forever or pay a lease for 20 years, replace the system when it dies and repeat. I'm now considering a system that I'd buy outright. It's advertised to produce enough to zero out my Power company bill and earn a refund or credit. Payments of roughly 50.00 a month less than my current average electric bill or buy outright for slightly under 19,000. 

I'd really appreciate everyones comments, pro and con, based on personal experiences using a solar system. We have an appt this afternoon and any suggestions on questions I should be asking would be great. This system does not include battery back up but is set up for it to be added later if we wanted. I also understand that without back up if we lose power you also lose your own solar power as a safety measure to the grid workers. 

Look forward to hearing any thoughts, there have to be dozens of things I haven't considered asking.

Thanks all!


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## mainshipfred (Apr 23, 2021)

Mike, I have nothing to offer but surely interested in what they have to say.


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## ibglowin (Apr 23, 2021)

Well after the fiasco grid failure this past Winter in TX they are installing them left and right there but I have read like you mentioned that if the power goes down you get no power during the day which makes PV useless during a outage. I was seriously thinking about adding them to our house (have a perfect south facing pitched roof) as well but now have serious concerns as I would want my system to power my house during an outage (even if only during the day). I know that the math only really works if you purchase your system outright. Not worth it to lease. Also make sure your roof is newer as once its installed you will have a real issue trying to put on a new roof with the panels on the roof. We have several on our street but they are not being installed rapidly that's for sure and I live in a perfect town for them to be installed left and right (lots of sun and lots of $$$).

So it seems like you would also need a generator if you don't have any battery backup system (which are really expensive).


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## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

Thanks Mike, I had the same thought regarding a generator vs battery since my goal is not "off grid" or "survivalist". I don't think we've had more than 3 outages in the 2-1/2 years we've been here and none have lasted more than a couple of hours.


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## jswordy (Apr 23, 2021)

Mike, I'm watching this. The price of panels has fallen precipitously, and I am super-interested in what a $19,000 system runs like. I could install that for cash. Been interested a long time but the deal for me is that there are no incentives to do it in Tennessee. One thing you might want to consider about timing is whether there may be new federal incentives coming along should there be a further shift in power in DC (no puns intended, lol) in 2 years.

The primary reason I am interested is that we live on a farm with well water, so adding a system would make us reliant on only natural gas for heat, and even then we have a wood stove source and working electric radiant wall heaters installed a long time ago that we never use now, so we are choosing gas rather than needing it. I like to be as independent as I can.

I have studied a bit, and was thinking if I could go solar with a battery backup and a natural gas-fired backup generator, I'd never need power off the grid. For sure the electric company is gonna charge me a minimum fee just to be hooked up, but other than that, I'd be free.

This is the way of the future, I believe. In 30 years I think it will be very common to see homes with a system and also connected to the grid, and also there will be a robust retrofitting industry. All new homes will be solar/grid hybrids. That way, we don;t need a heavy duty grid, since it is auxiliary in nature. But man are the utilities gonna scream first.

You might enjoy reading this:








Babcock Ranch | The Hometown of Tomorrow


Babcock Ranch is the first solar powered town in America. It is underway in South Florida. Model homes are available now. Learn more today.




www.babcockranch.com





The only thing that is holding the USA back on this now is all the laws that favor the electrical grid. It's the same reason that every cell call must travel through a cable at some point in its journey, it's the law, and that has held back our cellular network development over countries that started with no phone grid.

Anyway... lol... I'm watching this for sure!


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2021)

Ok, let me say as a HVAC contractor for 30 years in the New Jersey.
If your in a* sun belt state* then the answer is most _definitely_ YES. the problem becomes when you go to sell.
if your thinking about a battery back up we've been down this road before and the problem with batteries , they can be dangerous and when they die?? they also require service yearly in most cases.
separate *gas generator* is the way to go as a back up if you can.
now if you look at the state of Florida in some parts the *electric is cheaper* to us then the gas* <GO FIGURE>*
In my part of the woods people have had problems with resale of there homes do to contracts with solar or people want the home but not the solar and what does happen if you have a roof leak??
*the above is strange but very true. and do to the fact we have more BUT heating days then cooling days.
another foof for thought if they can't find a way of getting read of windmill propellers ,Batteries a how other problem.*


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## ibglowin (Apr 23, 2021)

Plus PV efficiency has gone way up!



jswordy said:


> Mike, I'm watching this. The price of panels has fallen precipitously, and I am super-interested in what a $19,000 system runs like.


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## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

Jim, thanks, I've read of the town or community concept before but first time seeing an article about it actually happening.

Joe, I hadn't considered battery safety. The solar rep said, off the record, if we wanted battery backup we should investigate "after market" options based solely on the high cost of his companies product. I've also thought about the hang up of selling with a leased solar system, not that we plan on selling, but that's really the reason I'd only consider this if it was owned outright.

I'm leaning pretty heavily towards signing up this afternoon. It takes a couple of months with planning, permits, install. Right now we'd get approx $8,000 Fed Tax credit. I'd probably make the monthly payment for 48 months at which time our house is paid off, then apply that money over the next 6 months to pay off the panels. You have to believe that the Utility rates will continue to rise and the consideration of very low or no electric bill looks very attractive to us, especially as we get older and our income goes down a bit.


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2021)

In the end they'll be no way to get around energy costs, companies no matter what there part are in it to make money nothing more.
You need to ask yourself one question 
[ WHAT PRICE FOR ENERGY?


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## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

Agree in principle Joe but my thought is paying it to the Electric company gets me just electricity. Paying to the purchase of panels gets me electricity at a lower rate/Kwh and probably some additional equity in my home. I've gotta pay someone, why not pay some of it to me?


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2021)

It's like wine judging, its all subjective to one's own needs.
Your in a Sunbelt state you really can't loose, go for it.


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## heatherd (Apr 23, 2021)

@Kraffty I have researched and designed them for some of my commercial projects and find them to be a great way to keep your power reliable, especially now that our weather is getting more and more extreme. I'd ask about the panels efficiency, life-span in terms of partial and total decay, where the panels are made, how you're storing energy, how your connecting to the grid in order to get your credits, whether the panels have to have a direct southern-facing exposure (some can face partially some not), replacement cost, and warranty. 

The grid connection is a plus and a minus; you get credits but if everyone else needs your power you might not have enough. You'll want to really think through whether you want to be off-grid if your power is out for a week or more like recently happened in Texas to some of my friends - they had no power and no water, had to boil snow.

In terms of tax credits, there are federal, state, and local ones.
Federal: Homeowner’s Guide to the Federal Tax Credit for Solar Photovoltaics | Department of Energy 
State: Arizona Solar Incentives | Arizona Solar Rebates & Tax Credits (sunrun.com) 

There are also solar roofs: Solar Roof | Tesla 
Here's a list of some US-based manufacturers and their panel efficiencies: Which Solar Panels Are Made in the USA? (ecotality.com).


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2021)

Heres the catch 22 ,I understand what your saying.
My view, I'm letting you put solar panels on my roof and your charging me to rent them? I still have to pay you and sometimes the electric co.
Buying them outright is the answer now the electricity you don't use gets bought by the electric company in one way or the other, a win win , for you especially your in the right location with a back up generator if you'd like.
If iwould move to the southwest were you are i wouldn't give it a second thought.


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## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

Thanks Heatherd, added to my list of questions and good links on credits and made in Info.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 23, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Mike, I have nothing to offer but surely interested in what they have to say.



Yep, what Fred said. You didn't call Elon Musk?


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 23, 2021)

Mike,

I'm sure it'll be much more than the 19k you're currently looking at, but just for grins, you can actually get an online estimate from Tesla just by putting in your address and your average electric bill. Not sure why they need your average bill, but it was an interesting exercise for me. But I'm not taking out a second mortgage on my house to put a Tesla roof on. At least now I know.


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## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

I looked in my contacts but couldn't find his number, must have blocked him. I'm thinking the roof would cost more than my house did. I'll stick with the "bolt on" version.


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## ibglowin (Apr 23, 2021)

Without knowing your average electricity usage/bill you can't calculate net energy savings nor a payback time. By using an average $ amount they can still figure out savings and payback using an average KWH cost.



Boatboy24 said:


> Not sure why they need your average bill, but it was an interesting exercise for me.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 23, 2021)

ibglowin said:


> Without knowing your average electricity usage/bill you can't calculate net energy savings nor a payback time. By using an average $ amount they can still figure out savings and payback using an average KWH cost.



That's what I thought, but that information was not provided.

Edit: It was - had to dig a bit to get to it.

Edit/Edit: The price for the solar roof was very high. But the price for the Tesla solar panels actually wasn't bad - especially after the federal incentive. Much cheaper than buying one of their cars! Their website advertises the "lowest price in America".


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## Kraffty (Apr 23, 2021)

And I believe that average is to figure the yearly savings since it looks like July, Aug and Sept I won't actually make enough to cover all my use but most other months I'll over produce and sell back.


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## ibglowin (Apr 23, 2021)

You need more power Scotty!



Kraffty said:


> since it looks like July, Aug and Sept I won't actually make enough to cover all my use but most other months I'll over produce and sell back.


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## ibglowin (Apr 23, 2021)

Elon is smoking again sounds like! 



Boatboy24 said:


> Their website advertises the "lowest price in America".


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## BMarNJ (Apr 24, 2021)

We purchased our panels outright. With the fed tax credit and the SRECS we can sell in NJ, we are on track to meet our 5 year ROI. It was a no brainer for us. But every state is different.


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## Kraffty (Apr 24, 2021)

That's great to hear @BMarNJ . How long have you had them running and are there any day to day differences in the house? 
They're coming out Monday to do the first inspections, check the roof and electrical panel. Let the process begin.


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## BMarNJ (Apr 24, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> That's great to hear @BMarNJ . How long have you had them running and are there any day to day differences in the house?
> They're coming out Monday to do the first inspections, check the roof and electrical panel. Let the process begin.



NJ is a net metering state, which means our production goes back to the utility and offsets what we get from the utility. In the summer we make more than we use and in the winter it is the opposite. In May we true up. So there is no variation day to day for us.


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## mikewatkins727 (Apr 24, 2021)

I'll relate to you what happened to me that I still, to this day, gripes me. Salesman came to the house with a Google map of the house, claiming he could put 52 panels on and provide 106% of my average electrical usage. After a site survey where someone came to the property and phyically surveyed the property, the salesman announced he could only put on 27 panels and provide 72% of the electricity. I kinda viewed this as 'bait and switch'. Yes, I did sign. One, the roof was 2 years old, and two, I refinanced the next year so I own the panels now, Wish I could afford batteries. In 25 years when the panels die, I'll cross that bridge then. It was nice not paying the utility bill during the winter while I ate up the electric I had banked. BTW, I live in SW Ohio and am 76 yo.


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## ibglowin (Apr 24, 2021)

NM is a net metering State as well. My local utility currently charges $360 for the net meter.

Just looked at our Electrical usage. Looks like we average about 830KWH over the year


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## Daboyleroy (Apr 24, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> That's great to hear @BMarNJ . How long have you had them running and are there any day to day differences in the house?
> They're coming out Monday to do the first inspections, check the roof and electrical panel. Let the process begin.


1. If I may ask, who is the manufacturer of the panels
2. life of the panels before replacement
3. are they daisy chain to each other or function separately

if one panel goes down, does it stop power production

thanks in advance
i have looked at panels for years


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 24, 2021)

mikewatkins727 said:


> I'll relate to you what happened to me that I still, to this day, gripes me. Salesman came to the house with a Google map of the house, claiming he could put 52 panels on and provide 106% of my average electrical usage. After a site survey where someone came to the property and phyically surveyed the property, the salesman announced he could only put on 27 panels and provide 72% of the electricity. I kinda viewed this as 'bait and switch'. Yes, I did sign. One, the roof was 2 years old, and two, I refinanced the next year so I own the panels now, Wish I could afford batteries. In 25 years when the panels die, I'll cross that bridge then. It was nice not paying the utility bill during the winter while I ate up the electric I had banked. BTW, I live in SW Ohio and am 76 yo.


Mike, the 25 yr metric is an industry standard for degredation of the panel. They shouldn't "die". 15% or 20% is to be expected.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 24, 2021)

Personally I would keep my powder dry and wait for Biden's next Trillion dollar give away. Green Energy freebees. The economics are all about the roof, site, and State/ Federal incentives. Every state is different. Revolving funds, Grants, SRECS, etc. The current tax credits are sunsetting this year, but expect a freshening. Did AZ pass that solar Grid access charge they were wresting with a few years back? Get a subsidized loan and own the panels. Panels are a commodity. Balance cost per watt with brand names. Third party lease companies get you the panels, then pocket the tax credits and incentives for themselves. Those leases also can encumber any resale. Go with micro inverters instead of a central inverter. Several advantages over a string inverter IMO. A propane standby generator is a much better solution than banks of high maintenance batteries for that occasional power outage if grid unreliability is an issue. As others have said, as a safety measure, panel output is stopped when the grid goes down. 

Database of State Incentives for Renewables & Efficiency® - DSIRE is a good source to find what's available. The smartest money (ROI) is still in conservation. Heat pump hot water heaters, insulation, etc.
Spencer
NAHB Graduate Master builder
BPI Building Analyst
RI NABCEP Solar trained


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## Obbnw (Apr 24, 2021)

I bought a grid tie system 4 years back. Even with the tax credit I thought I'd be financially better off investing the 15k our system cost.

I put them up anyway, I think the technology is cool and our system has out performed our goal. (80 percent goal for yearly electric and we get closer to 95 percent).

The no power when the grid goes down but the panels have sun is frustrating, but I think in the next 5 years there will be a good solution. 

Overall I'm pretty pleased with our system.


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## Snafflebit (Apr 24, 2021)

Here is my input from experience with solar in California.

Buy, don't lease, a solar system. If you cannot afford to buy then just skip solar.
Anticipate 8 years as the break even ownership period, hopefully sooner but don't assume.
Get your roof in shape to make sure you don't have to take the panels off before their 20 year life.
Solar panels lose 0.5% efficiency per year as the age. Build that into your energy needs.
Solar panels need to be cleaned to obtain their peak efficiency. If you cannot spray water on the areas where the panels are installed you will have to get someone up there with window washing equipment.
If you plan to sell the house soon, a solar lease is a huge turn-off to buyers.
Install a system that has enough panels to provide the same energy usage over one year plus half of the anticipated efficiency degradation plus maybe the load of adding an electric car charger plus one extra panel to account for breakage (it happened to me and the warranty is worthless, but it was easy to bypass.)
Don't install more panels than needed, less is better than extra.


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## Obbnw (Apr 24, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> Here is my input from experience with solar in California.
> 
> Buy, don't lease, a solar system. If you cannot afford to buy then just skip solar.
> Anticipate 8 years as the break even ownership period, hopefully sooner but don't assume.
> ...



I agree with most of what you say but wouldn't worry too much about washing the panels.

Here in Utah if often rains dirt. Gusty storms pick up dust/dirt from the west desert and we get 0.01" of rain that is mostly dirt. My panels are pretty easy to get to so I I did a few tests where I only washed a couple of panels to see if it made any difference. I have micro inverters so can measure each panel individually. Washing made no measurable difference. That said I still wash them occasionally (1 or 2 times a year), but the roof they are on is 2:12 (2 rows of 8 panels, with about 8' between the rows) and the roof is only 5' above grade on 2 sides so cleaning is easy and safe.

I do notice snow coverage. Having a few inches of snow on just the bottom of the panel virtually eliminates all production. The way my system is set up is not conducive to shedding snow. One row is flush to the 2:12 roof which slopes down to the north, the other row is tilted up to the south but the bottom of the panel is only about 6 inches off the roof. The only thing I would change if doing again would be to raise these to about 1' above the roof.

The north facing panels actually do better than the south facing in the summer but winter production is close to zero. Over 4 years the north facing panels are at about 76% of the south facing panels.

The big gaps in the graph are snow events.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 24, 2021)

I guess my position is always - how long will it take before you get payback for this "investment". Me? I don't believe in solar panels being an efficient use of my money but I do believe in solar energy so I have my electric supplier hook me up to to a solar electric provider and I pay them for the power they provide through my supplier. If there is a power outage then I have no power BUT I have no cost and I use solar generated electricity but use my providers lines (more accurately, my provider is provided with more solar). But I think that centralized power generation is far more "efficient" than personalized power generation... and if you live in a state that refuses to spend money to ensure a good supply of energy I would turn those politicians out of their cozy offices but of course that would mean that everyone needs to pay for social goods (electrical power) through taxes... (sorry, I come from a culture that has no inherent problem with taxes when that money is used to pay for social goods such as health, education, roads, pensions etc


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## Kraffty (Apr 24, 2021)

Thanks everybody, I love having a resource like this forum where I can reach out for advice and opinions. We agreed to sign up and while I don't have all my answers yet, I do have these basics. Won't sign a final contract until after all the inspections and final design is approved.

We are buying the system
The system is built to produce 140% of our daily average.
25 year warranty where they replace any cell in any panel that falls below the expected degradation
22 Micro inverters so I guess the work independently
Panels are supposed to be german but haven't got that info in writing yet
The south facing slope of our roof was completely replaced 9 years ago because of hail damage

I'll share anything I learn and post progress over the next couple of months till we're up and running,
Thanks again all, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, experiences and expertise.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 24, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I guess my position is always - how long will it take before you get payback for this "investment". Me? I don't believe in solar panels being an efficient use of my money but I do believe in solar energy so I have my electric supplier hook me up to to a solar electric provider and I pay them for the power they provide through my supplier. If there is a power outage then I have no power BUT I have no cost and I use solar generated electricity but use my providers lines (more accurately, my provider is provided with more solar). But I think that centralized power generation is far more "efficient" than personalized power generation... and if you live in a state that refuses to spend money to ensure a good supply of energy I would turn those politicians out of their cozy offices but of course that would mean that everyone needs to pay for social goods (electrical power) through taxes... (sorry, I come from a culture that has no inherent problem with taxes when that money is used to pay for social goods such as health, education, roads, pensions etc


 Bernard, 1) Centralized power is not very efficient. After generation and line losses, transformers etc., it's only about 35% efficient. Distributed power (everyone produces their own and shares excess) is the basis of the "Smart Grid". Grid improvement is a major part of the new federal Infrastructure spending bill. If the Fed should be subsidizing private company owned lines is a different argument. Many issues going down that rabbit hole too.
2) Predicting the payback has many variables. Average solar hours? Snowy winter? Rate increases? Cap and Trade legislation, etc. We in RI just had a 40% increase in rates forced on us. 40%! But can take great pictures of the county's first offshore wind farm. Panel owners are somewhat insulated from these policy changes. As Mr. Snafflebit corroberated, an 8 year payback is very predictable. That's a 12.5% un compounded return on your money. Maybe you can beat that in the stock market, maybe you could lose. As rates go up more than the average 4% per year, the payback gets faster. When was the last time your electric rate went down? Pretty close to a guaranteed return, like a T bill.

3) Motivations can vary and are all valid. I installed a 14kw system for a neighbor. He's quite happy and his numbers are right on target. But as an Oceanography professor, he considers it a moral obligation to do his part, and backed it up with his check book. And he loves following the ENVOY chart as shown above by Obbnw.


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## BMarNJ (Apr 25, 2021)

@Kraffty That’s great. Our utility only allows us to have a system that produces 100% of our usage. We bought a plug-in hybrid last year and now our usage outstrips our production most months. Our added electric costs are still less than we were spending on gas, but I wish we could have put in a bigger system to future proof us. The new Mustang Mach-E looks really good to me!


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## Bkat (Apr 25, 2021)

In a southern climate I definitely see how they make sense if you can afford to buy rather than lease. I wouldn't hesitate. In the northern parts, it's a tougher call. We looked into them. Really like the idea of solar too. But the cost was a deterrent for something that still made us grid-dependent, was potentially under-powered during the colder months and that degraded over time. I played around with the math and it sorta became a break even in terms of actual money spent once I figured in interest earned on the cash if I didn't spend it all upfront.

So given that money wasn't endless and that our winter sun is a far cry from the Arizona desert, taking the same $$$ and investing it into making the house more energy efficient, making the land we own better at carbon sequestration, buying the most energy-efficient appliances (and furnace) when the time comes, and simply trying to use less energy overall, seemed a better use of available funds for the time being.

I would love to see affordable and efficient solar for all homes and smaller, community-centered renewable energy options that are more de-centralized. Maybe in time. This all said, I'd suspect new incentives may be popping up in the next year or two so I may change course if that happens.


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## Bkat (Apr 25, 2021)

I will add, one thing that frustrated me was, in Illinois at least, they capped incentives and a lot of those have gotten grabbed by "developers" who then planned to build "solar farms" to then sell the power to homeowners making them forever in servitude to utility companies.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 25, 2021)

To points about winter vs summer and southern vs northern states, I guess I need to claim ignorance. Solar power is essentially - what ? electricity generated from light or heat? If heat then I understand but these are not photovoltaic systems that you are talking about? Light is light and it doesn't matter if there is a snow storm 24 hours a day for 4 months in the year. If you are dependent on the sun HEATING some surface to generate electricity then I understand but I thought all solar energy was photovoltaic. Am I wrong? And if I am not then why does it matter the season or the latitude? I live in upstate NY and our city has invested in solar farms to provide energy for schools and the city admin and the like.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 25, 2021)

Good points Bkat. The solar fields suck up all our funds, leaving crumbs for residential use. Makes the connected developers rich, but only raises our rates to subsidize them. 
The money for small residential jobs is sucked up within a half hour of the offering. Then I'd have to tell the client that we'll try again in 4 months. An unsustainable business model.. I got out. While not Arizona, they work fine in northern latitudes. The efficiency of a panel actually drops as the temperature rises. A bigger factor is simply how good is your roof and how many cloudy days. If not a good southern exposure, spend your money on insulation.
While we're way off wine here, it needs to be mentioned that Solar panels are not really all that green. Yes they give woke coctail party credits as you display them on your roof, but there's a reason 95% are made in China. Heavy toxic metals, arsenic, and non existent environmental laws. Non recycleable. The life cycle embodied energy to lifetime output ratio is not good. Factory rooftops and landfills are great sites for commercial. Clear cutting trees is not! Lots of issues. Not the simple panacea that they seems to be at first look.


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## jswordy (Apr 25, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep, what Fred said. You didn't call Elon Musk?



Ew.


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## jswordy (Apr 25, 2021)

The industry standard solar panel lifespan is 25-30 years, with an expected life of 30 years. If I install them tomorrow, I will be dead before they need to be replaced. During their life cycle, there is about 20% decrease in power capacity so an oversized initial installation might be a good thing.

The only way it could pencil out for me is if I bought everything outright. I already have gone to a metal roof, so that will never need replacing as long as I am around. One problem is that my roof is shaded by trees most of the day, but I have a barn roof that is open. Could put them there and cable it to the house. That adds cost.

Joe, I am fortunate that my BIL owns a very large HVAC contracting firm, so I at least can get my Generac near wholesale from him. Cost per KwH out of natural gas fired ICE generators is relatively high, so it wouldn't be a savings when in use. That's why the panel-battery-generator system connected to the grid interests me. With enough storage, might be able to eliminate the generator and still be OK in short outages. 

In my farm shop, I installed in-floor radiant heat currently fired by a 70-gallon gas water heater. LOVE that! Set it at 50 and it is comfy cozy, because all the heat is rising out of every inch of the floor. That system also gives me the option to install hot water solar panels (which are easily DIY produced) if I ever want to do that. I always said if I ever built a new house, it would have the radiant heat system and solar panels to heat it, with gas as the backup. Radiant floor heat is EXTREMELY rare in the Southeast, even though most new homes here are built on slabs. 

Of course, if I built new, I would take advantage of some type of earth berm construction and closed-cell spray-in insulation, too. I'll probably never get the chance at my age.

So anyway, Mike, I would be interested to know the company you are using and I'm interested in the experience of anyone using solar now. The panels are popping up quite a bit even here in the conservative South. I know a guy who installed two 5-acre solar farms in my county about 5 years ago. They just sit there and earn him money every sunny day.

Also, construction just was completed on a HUGE Facebook server facility in nearby Huntsville, AL, and FB put up a solar farm to offset carbon from its electricity use, too.

It's the coming thing.


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## jswordy (Apr 25, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> Panels are supposed to be german but haven't got that info in writing yet



German panels are top of the line. That's what my friend used for his two solar farms.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 25, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> Light is light and it doesn't matter if there is a snow storm 24 hours a day for 4 months in the year. If you are dependent on the sun HEATING some surface to generate electricity then I understand but I thought all solar energy was photovoltaic. Am I wrong? And if I am not then why does it matter the season or the latitude? I live in upstate NY and our city has invested in solar farms to provide energy for schools and the city admin and the like.



You are correct that we are talking about photovoltaic.

Latitude matters because of the angle the sun makes with the surface of the Earth. At northerly latitudes (or far southerly in the southern hemisphere), a given amount of light energy gets smeared out over a larger area. This is the same reason you get a worse sunburn in Mexico than in Canada.

A similar factor explains the difference between summer and winter. The sun's angle is more oblique in winter than it is in summer, so, again, there is less energy per unit area. (This is the reason that we HAVE a winter and summer.)

As far as snow: a layer of snow will scatter the light and prevent most of it from reaching the panel.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 25, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> To points about winter vs summer and southern vs northern states, I guess I need to claim ignorance. Solar power is essentially - what ? electricity generated from light or heat? If heat then I understand but these are not photovoltaic systems that you are talking about? Light is light and it doesn't matter if there is a snow storm 24 hours a day for 4 months in the year. If you are dependent on the sun HEATING some surface to generate electricity then I understand but I thought all solar energy was photovoltaic. Am I wrong? And if I am not then why does it matter the season or the latitude? I live in upstate NY and our city has invested in solar farms to provide energy for schools and the city admin and the like.


You 're right and wrong. Two types of solar, really 3 if you count passive solar construction. Solar thermal circulates fluid through tubes in the collector to increase the fluid temperature. This heat gain is then used for various things. It involves tanks, pumps and sensors. Many different scenarios. Lots of plumbing and moving parts tends to make it expensive and complicated. While the systems work quite well, it seems to have fallen out of favor.
Then there is solar electric. Photvoltaics, or PV. Light is electromagnetic radiation, but also has particles called Photons. These photons strike the panel and dislodge electrons. In oversimplified terms, electron flow is electricity. The colder the conductor, the better the electrical flow. Heat creates electrical friction. ex. supercooling magnets. Output for a given panel is dependent on the quantity of the photons. Panel output drops off after the sun is less than a 30* angle to panel. 90* is best, so what is your roof angle and how directly south? Winter seasons have the sun lower in the sky, a non optimum angle. Shorter days. More cloudy days. No leaves on obstructing trees actually helps. Snow on your panels blocks and ref lects sun.. It's all about how many hours of bright clean direct striking sun.
Panels make DC power that then needs to be converted to alternating current (AC) to match the house and grid. A small device on the back of each panel called a micro inverter does this. Software then lets you monitor and see just what each panels is doing and has done (Envoy) from your phone. Relatively simple plug and play systems, along with net metering have led to PV's being the dominant winner over solar thermal for residential use.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 25, 2021)

jswordy said:


> The industry standard solar panel lifespan is 25-30 years, with an expected life of 30 years. If I install them tomorrow, I will be dead before they need to be replaced. During their life cycle, there is about 20% decrease in power capacity so an oversized initial installation might be a good thing.
> 
> The only way it could pencil out for me is if I bought everything outright. I already have gone to a metal roof, so that will never need replacing as long as I am around. One problem is that my roof is shaded by trees most of the day, but I have a barn roof that is open. Could put them there and cable it to the house. That adds cost.
> 
> ...


Jim, A good deal on a Generac vs. expensive high maintenance batteries for occasional power outages? Hands down the Generac! And if you have an extended power outage, your batteries are dead anyway. Net Meter and use the grid as your nightime battery.... Talk to your BIL about a ModCon hot water heater. That tanked standard HW heater is usually only about 50% efficient. Is that 70 gallon in the same room as your heated shop? Lots of standby loss there.. A small wall hung unit will pay for itself.

Want to go cutting edge? Residential CoGen units. Heat and power neoTower® LIVING 2.0 - 4.0 | cogeneration unit for your home


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## HillPeople (Apr 25, 2021)

Off grid house and winery here.
1/3 mile from the end of the power line so it was a no brainer given the cost of extending the line.
Earth buffered/passive solar house.
We run on ~4 Kw of photovoltaics with some major loads running on propane- radiant slab in the winery, DHW via Rennai instantaneous hot water heaters, burn 2 cords firewood/yr. It is possible to reduce your carbon footprint quite dramatically, but It's not for everyone. In our case it was "necessity is the mother of invention". I'll skip posting all the stats and specs doing this since 1972. The takeaway is just do what you can to reduce your carbon footprint. It will be different for everyone.


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## Bkat (Apr 25, 2021)

As Spencerthebuilder notes, solar panels are not a panacea and are not recyclable. They are better than coal. They are better than nukes. But the bottom line is, using less energy is the best solution of all.

Claiming that solar and wind provide "limitless" energy gives people and industry a clear conscience in feeling they can use it with abandon. There is a resource cost to be paid with any of them. Again, better than more coal mines but lithium mines are environmentally damaging too and the glass to make panels relies on sand, etc. No natural resource is infinite.

"Limitless" is a set up for failure which will, in the interim, earn a few an awful lot of money. But "use less" as a campaign slogan won't get you many votes. Or campaign donations.


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## MHSKIBUM (Apr 25, 2021)

There was a big thing about Tesla shingles awhile ago (roof shingles that act as solar panels) and wired-in coatings on windows (mostly for glass skyscrapers) that are supposed to do the same thing. Anyone got an update of these technologies?


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 25, 2021)

MHSKIBUM said:


> There was a big thing about Tesla shingles awhile ago (roof shingles that act as solar panels) and wired-in coatings on windows (mostly for glass skyscrapers) that are supposed to do the same thing. Anyone got an update of these technologies?



A Tesla roof will cost me about $100k before any incentives, according to their website. Crazy expensive. Really cool concept, but I'm not buying in until it's 50-60% cheaper. They do also make solar panels, and the cost for my place would be about $32k before incentives (again, according to their website) That's not too bad. It's kinda neat on their site though. You can just enter your address and average bill and they'll give you an estimate.


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## balatonwine (Apr 26, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> Bernard, 1) Centralized power is not very efficient. After generation and line losses, transformers etc., it's only about 35% efficient.



Source reference of 35%? Solar panels are only 20% efficient. So seems solar looses (but will await your source of course to explain "reasons" for 35% statement to compare).

Side note: The US Energy Information Administration says this about post generation loss in efficiency (so line losses are rather small). So where does the other 60% efficiency loss come from? Generation? Source?

_The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses equaled about 5% of the electricity transmitted and distributed in the United States in 2015 through 2019._


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## Bkat (Apr 26, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> Source reference of 35%? Solar panels are only 20% efficient. So seems solar looses (but will await your source of course to explain "reasons" for 35% statement to compare).



I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Not sure if the 35% number is correct or not and Bernard can respond as to his source, but the 20% you reference refers to the amount of sunlight energy converted into usable energy by the panels themselves. So the energy "lost" is effectively just sunlight.


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## balatonwine (Apr 26, 2021)

Bkat said:


> I think you're comparing apples to oranges. Not sure if the 35% number is correct or not and Bernard can respond as to his source, but the 20% you reference refers to the amount of sunlight energy converted into usable energy by the panels themselves. So the energy "lost" is effectively just sunlight.




I am not *the one* comparing apples and oranges. Many work on comparing efficiency in different energy generating methods. After all, energy in a source can be measured, and engery one can capture can also be measured. Science. That includes a photon or the kenetic energy in a drop of water above a dam. For example:

The Efficiency of Power Plants of Different Types

From that link (and I will let others debate the quality of this source), hydro wins at 85-90% efficiency. Solar looses at the yearly average extreme of 12%.

But... There are "other reasons" than efficiency to use solar (i.e. you can not build a huge hydro dam on your property). So efficiency (with modern solar) should really be a non-topic comparing other methods (IMHO) if you live in a part of the planet that works for solar (i.e. Arcata CA where I lived for a while and rarely saw the sun... maybe not ).

So my point was, circuitously done, exactly what you are saying... Don't start talking about efficiency and throwing numbers around (especially without a reference). Because... it depends.....


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## Bkat (Apr 26, 2021)

As for the numerous comments about backup power via generators, battery arrays, etc., I personally think the best backup system is a wood-burning stove for heat and cooking plus candles for light. It's worked for thousands of years.


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## joeswine (Apr 26, 2021)

Like I stated buying your own is the way to go especially in the sunbelt states win. Win..
With a power generator as a backup.


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## Bkat (Apr 26, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> So efficiency (with modern solar) should really be a non-topic comparing other methods (IMHO) if you live in a part of the planet that works for solar


True. In that, the bigger issue isn't about efficiency per se but the consequences of the energy source. I'd rather be standing in the "lost energy" from solar versus that from a nuclear reactor.


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## balatonwine (Apr 26, 2021)

Bkat said:


> As for the numerous comments about backup power via generators, battery arrays, etc., I personally think the best backup system is a wood-burning stove for heat and cooking plus candles for light. It's worked for thousands of years.



I have two wood burning stoves for heat. But that is just me.

Reality is, more and more municipalities are pushing new construction to electric only appliances and heating. So I understand why someone wants an on site backup. 

And wood burning is frowned upon in many areas (for air quality reasons as one excuse reason... even while other sources of poor air quality are not only allowed but are increasing).


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 26, 2021)

The 35% figure is what we were told in my Solar training classes. It was based on DOE studies of the National electrical grid. But like all statistics, it's an average and depends upon the actuals and will vary in specifics. Age of the plant? Age of your wires? What's the boiler design, etc? Is the plant natural gas fired, coal or oil. All have different BTU ratings as fuels. The question is how to get the maximum percentage of power out of your input, and get it into the house. Net cost per kwh. It's my understanding that distribution losses are significant. Line loss, substations and transformers. Higher the voltage, the lower the loss over distance, but all wires have friction and consume power. Electricity travels till it sees a load, then goes there. Takes the shortest path. ie. a short circuit. So if you are producing excess and your neighbor is consuming, the distance traveled is minimized as you feed them. A localized grid. The smart Grid we keep hearing of. Smaller need to upgrade major lines and substations that are part of the centralized grid. More efficient and cost effective. As I see the future, every house will produce it's own, using a combination of panels and personal COGen plants, be they conventional fuel or fuel cells. The CoGen will replace your furnace, heating and powering your house. But as a source, carbon based fossil fuels are a very energy dense molecule and are not going anywhere for quite a while.

Bkat is spot on with the apples and oranges. Sunlight is free. Capturing is is not. From what I read, solar panels are bumping up against the laws of physics in output per sq. ft. Also diminishing returns on $/ watt. Need more power, add another panel. Tesla has some interesting technology but beware of hype and cult of personality. I've not looked at them recently, but the electric roof shingle used to have significantly less output per sq, ft and still be more than a panel. It was for those that didn't care for the look of Blue and black panels on their roof and were willing to back up that choice with their check book


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## jswordy (Apr 26, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> Jim, A good deal on a Generac vs. expensive high maintenance batteries for occasional power outages? Hands down the Generac! And if you have an extended power outage, your batteries are dead anyway. Net Meter and use the grid as your nightime battery.... Talk to your BIL about a ModCon hot water heater. That tanked standard HW heater is usually only about 50% efficient. Is that 70 gallon in the same room as your heated shop? Lots of standby loss there.. A small wall hung unit will pay for itself.
> 
> Want to go cutting edge? Residential CoGen units. Heat and power neoTower® LIVING 2.0 - 4.0 | cogeneration unit for your home



I'll go tankless when the water heater quits. Yes, it is in the same 40x40 well-insulated shop. So far, 15 years and it ain't quit yet. Good old State, can't hardly beat 'em. I am spending peanuts to heat the place, really.


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## jswordy (Apr 26, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> I have two wood burning stoves for heat. But that is just me.
> 
> Reality is, more and more municipalities are pushing new construction to electric only appliances and heating. So I understand why someone wants an on site backup.
> 
> And wood burning is frowned upon in many areas (for air quality reasons as one excuse reason... even while other sources of poor air quality are not only allowed but are increasing).



We heated with wood for 20 years before we had central installed in our 1937 farmhouse. We had electric wall heaters already but they are pricey, especially compared to wood, so we never used them. Now wood is our standby, used when it gets super-cold or when we want a fire.

You know the old saying: Wood heats you three times: When you cut it, when you stack it and when you burn it.

Here's the beautiful thing about wood: You are burning in the current carbon cycle, as opposed to burning natural gas, fuel oil or coal, which has been tapped from carbon cycles that are millions of years old. So with wood, you are not uncorking CO2 that was sequestered for a long time in the Earth into the atmosphere. Yes, there is some fossil fuel used to get firewood, but other than that small contribution, you are really clean as far as CO2 emissions go.

The catalytic stoves make a big difference in air quality for congested city areas. Personally, I would miss the smell of wood smoke in my rural neighborhood that signals fall and the coming winter. I hope it never goes away as long as I live. And wood is a super-cheap heat source.

Down South here, we have new concrete slab houses going up with heat pumps, and where I am on the TN-AL line it is just tad too far north for that. Then people wonder why they are so danged cold in their houses and their electric bills are so high. Heck, you sit in those slab houses, with the concrete floor uninsulated form the earth below it, and everything from your knees down is frozen, as the full-electric heat strip glows and the meter runs fast.


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## jswordy (Apr 26, 2021)

HillPeople said:


> Off grid house and winery here.
> 1/3 mile from the end of the power line so it was a no brainer given the cost of extending the line.
> Earth buffered/passive solar house.
> We run on ~4 Kw of photovoltaics with some major loads running on propane- radiant slab in the winery, DHW via Rennai instantaneous hot water heaters, burn 2 cords firewood/yr. It is possible to reduce your carbon footprint quite dramatically, but It's not for everyone. In our case it was "necessity is the mother of invention". I'll skip posting all the stats and specs doing this since 1972. The takeaway is just do what you can to reduce your carbon footprint. It will be different for everyone.View attachment 73819



Man, I applaud you and I agree: People who want to leave something for future generations need to reduce their carbon footprint, or there won't be much. Kids who are toddlers now, man, I just cannot imagine the kind of hell they will live in when they get to be my age. Even if we make huge changes right away. Which we won't. Good for you! It takes every one of us.


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## jswordy (Apr 26, 2021)

Bkat said:


> As Spencerthebuilder notes, solar panels are not a panacea and are not recyclable. They are better than coal. They are better than nukes. But the bottom line is, using less energy is the best solution of all.
> 
> Claiming that solar and wind provide "limitless" energy gives people and industry a clear conscience in feeling they can use it with abandon. There is a resource cost to be paid with any of them. Again, better than more coal mines but lithium mines are environmentally damaging too and the glass to make panels relies on sand, etc. No natural resource is infinite.
> 
> "Limitless" is a set up for failure which will, in the interim, earn a few an awful lot of money. But "use less" as a campaign slogan won't get you many votes. Or campaign donations.



It's not true that they are not recyclable, we just are national adolescents who are behind as usual.









The Opportunities of Solar Panel Recycling


This guest blog is courtesy of GreenMatch. What Happens to PV Panels When Their Life Cycle Ends The energy industry has been experiencing a radical change and the gradual shift towards renewable energy sourcing is more than evident....




nerc.org





I might add that, while we quibble and fret over using electric vehicles, Norway has electric DUMP TRUCKS... We're #1? Hardly. I'll leave it there.


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## Spencerthebuilder (Apr 27, 2021)

jswordy said:


> We heated with wood for 20 years before we had central installed in our 1937 farmhouse. We had electric wall heaters already but they are pricey, especially compared to wood, so we never used them. Now wood is our standby, used when it gets super-cold or when we want a fire.
> 
> You know the old saying: Wood heats you three times: When you cut it, when you stack it and when you burn it.
> 
> ...



Yup! People need to stop buying houses with uninsulated concrete slabs. They are perfectly designed to make you cold and wick heat out of your house 24/7 forever. 2" of insulation under the whole slab. Add $100 worth of tubing and you have the most comfortable maintenance free system going.

But Jim, Norway has mostly hydro electricity. We don't. And the dirty secret of why Norway works... Much of their National revenue comes from.......the sale of North Sea Oil


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## jswordy (Apr 27, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> Yup! People need to stop buying houses with uninsulated concrete slabs. They are perfectly designed to make you cold and wick heat out of your house 24/7 forever. 2" of insulation under the whole slab. Add $100 worth of tubing and you have the most comfortable maintenance free system going.
> 
> But Jim, Norway has mostly hydro electricity. We don't. And the dirty secret of why Norway works... Much of their National revenue comes from.......the sale of North Sea Oil



The Norway oil is not a secret to those of us who follow leading nations in "alternative" energy. In fact, offsetting the oil is the very reason Norway decided to go so renewable as a society. They could just as easily have had nearly free oil-fired generation. My point is, they have technologies already that the "#1 U-S-A" is still in feasibility arguments about. We fret, can it be done? Will it ruin the economy? Etc. Meanwhile, see my picture above!

As far as hydro, that is Norway's predominant resource. They use hydro, wind and thermal, in that order, but hydro is 98%. Our major developable "alternative" resources are wind, solar, wave-action, and geothermal. Yet we're not developing any of those to the extent or at the speed Norway has developed its hydro resources. Why? Because here, it is all gummed up in politics and is being used as a wedge issue.

When the U.S. recently rejoined the Paris accord, it was heralded by this country's media as "the return of U.S. leadership." I laughed and laughed. The EU is FAR ahead of this country... far, far ahead. And so far, it and China have benefitted from the job creation.

About those slab houses, it is the builders who are cheaping out (as usual) when they are built on spec, and then dumping them on an unsuspecting public. There are literally thousands of them being built in my rapidly growing area right this minute, and I would never own one. The buyer doesn't know what it's about until cool weather rolls around. Then my FB feed explodes again in the annual electricity bill gripe. It's the UTILITY COMPANIES gouging them, don't ya know. lol.


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## Bkat (Apr 27, 2021)

jswordy said:


> When the U.S. recently rejoined the Paris accord, it was heralded by this country's media as "the return of U.S. leadership." I laughed and laughed. The EU is FAR ahead of this country... far, far ahead. And so far, it and China have benefitted from the job creation.


It's the old, "we're so far behind we think we're ahead" bit. 

The problem is, many don't see the merits of saving the planet unless it turns a tidy profit in the process.


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## joeswine (Apr 27, 2021)

You don't really want to get into what the EU and the rest of the world is doing ,do you?


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## jswordy (May 11, 2021)

joeswine said:


> You don't really want to get into what the EU and the rest of the world is doing ,do you?



Just saw your comment. Really, there's no need. Plain to see that some workers had to build that dump truck. I don't care what you think about global warming, those are called "green jobs," and I can tell you that per capita, they are concentrated in Europe and China right now. Just hate to see the country keep falling farther behind, but if that's what is desired, oh well...

You know, it was sad when my friend built his two solar farms. The panels came from China and the general contractor was a German solar firm. Flew over the managers to supervise U.S. laborers in building it. Really sad.

This huge windmill farm near Champaign, Ill., that I have seen myself is owned and operated by a Spanish firm: Twin Groves Wind Farm | EDPR North America

The same firm owns and operates this large one, too: Harvest Ridge Wind Farm | EDPR North America

The parent company of EDPR is Portugal's largest utility company. Shrug...


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## Bkat (May 11, 2021)

jswordy said:


> This huge windmill farm near Champaign, Ill., that I have seen myself is owned and operated by a Spanish firm: Twin Groves Wind Farm | EDPR North America
> 
> The same firm owns and operates this large one, too: Harvest Ridge Wind Farm | EDPR North America


From the link you shared for Twin Groves Wind Farm...

"The vast majority of wind farm equipment is manufactured in the United States."

Is this accurate?


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## sour_grapes (May 11, 2021)

Bkat said:


> From the link you shared for Twin Groves Wind Farm...
> 
> "The vast majority of wind farm equipment is manufactured in the United States."
> 
> Is this accurate?



I don't know. But the company that manufactures the ones in those wind farms is Danish: Vestas V82-1.65 - 1,65 MW - Wind turbine


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## Gilmango (May 11, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> Here is my input from experience with solar in California.
> 
> Buy, don't lease, a solar system. If you cannot afford to buy then just skip solar.
> Anticipate 8 years as the break even ownership period, hopefully sooner but don't assume.
> ...


Great advice, I installed solar in San Francisco about 7.5 years ago, just about paid for itself with all the Federal and local tax breaks. Hired a local company to do the installation (Luminalt) and they did the full local incentive application and then reduced their price accordingly, I got the full federal tax credit. We installed just what we needed as I figured that even with degradation or a possible electric car in our future, we could realize some energy savings by installing more efficient appliances and bulbs over time.

Living in the foggy outer Richmond District, I first looked for neighbors with solar, not too many visible, even using google earth. So I did speak to a leasing company first, Sungevity, just to ground truth how the fog and clouds would impact our ability to generate enough power. They did a great job there as they were willing to guarantee a system which would meet our needs, which helped convince me it would work here and make economic sense. I was already inclined to buy and not rent, but even more so as their sales pitch did not jibe with what their contract documents said. The worst was they said I'd own the system outright after 10 years verbally, but their docs said we could sign a new lease or they would take away the panels (over the phone they said, 'no, it will cost us more to take your 10 year old system down so we'll just let you keep it when you don't renew; but no, we cannot put that in writing'). So we bought and haven't looked back. Good reminder that i need to get up on the roof and clean the panels again.


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## Kraffty (May 11, 2021)

im sitting on the patio of a cabin at lost Dutchman state park about ready to open an ice cold beer. The air conditioned 12x24 cabin is running on 4 panels and 74 vs 94 degrees outside. We also got a call late this morning that our home installation is scheduled for this Monday morning. So far everything has gone incredibly smooth and quickly. Happy hour begins!


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## ibglowin (May 11, 2021)

Looking forward to the install pics!  



Kraffty said:


> We also got a call late this morning that our home installation is scheduled for this Monday morning. So far everything has gone incredibly smooth and quickly. Happy hour begins!


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## jswordy (May 12, 2021)

Bkat said:


> From the link you shared for Twin Groves Wind Farm...
> 
> "The vast majority of wind farm equipment is manufactured in the United States."
> 
> Is this accurate?



Oh sure, we make some equipment, they get the long term profits! Another one...just announced...

"Vineyard Wind is a 50-50 joint venture between Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners and Avangrid Renewables. The latter is a subsidiary of Avangrid, which is part of the Iberdrola Group, a major utility headquartered in Spain."

SO ... FAR ... BEHIND!









'A huge moment': U.S. gives go-ahead for its first major offshore wind farm


Vineyard Wind 1 project will be located in waters off the coast of Massachusetts.




www.cnbc.com


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## jswordy (May 12, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> View attachment 74411
> 
> im sitting on the patio of a cabin at lost Dutchman state park about ready to open an ice cold beer. The air conditioned 12x24 cabin is running on 4 panels and 74 vs 94 degrees outside. We also got a call late this morning that our home installation is scheduled for this Monday morning. So far everything has gone incredibly smooth and quickly. Happy hour begins!



Cool! Cannot wait to hear about your user experiences.


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## Spencerthebuilder (May 12, 2021)

jswordy said:


> Oh sure, we make some equipment, they get the long term profits! Another one...just announced...
> 
> "Vineyard Wind is a 50-50 joint venture between Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners and Avangrid Renewables. The latter is a subsidiary of Avangrid, which is part of the Iberdrola Group, a major utility headquartered in Spain."
> 
> ...



Hmmm. Missed that announcement. The water can be pretty rough out there. I want to see the details. This is screaming of Government subsidies. How much? The Block Island project raised our rates 40%


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## jswordy (May 12, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder said:


> Hmmm. Missed that announcement. The water can be pretty rough out there. I want to see the details. This is screaming of Government subsidies. How much? The Block Island project raised our rates 40%



Gotta do something to get us up to speed! What Congress did was extend the existing ITC... and it runs out in 2025, which should bring these projects online quickly. WE ARE SOOOO FAR BEHIND! I might add thet renewables have reduced utility costs in Europe, where they have been scaled up enough to do so.






US offshore wind builders bullish after tax credit boost | Reuters Events | Renewables


Last month, the U.S. Congress agreed to implement a new 30% investment tax credit (ITC) for offshore wind farms as part of a COVID-19 recovery package. The US is poised for its first wave of large-scale offshore wind farms and the new ITC rules are a significant boost for developers and...




www.reutersevents.com




.


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## Spencerthebuilder (May 12, 2021)

This has implications for me locally. As the water is 200', the bases will be 300'. These will be basically offshore deep water drilling rig structures. They will be fabricated right next to the Electric Boat facility at the old Quonset Navy base., who has been screaming for employees to complete existing sub contracts for 3 years. Federal contracts. Can't get enough good workers who can pass a drug test.. Apartment vacancies are very tight. This will have interesting Macro ramifications . I want to see what the economics are. As long as it's not my money, great! Build them. When it is my money, I care very much. Following the Dutch down a subsidized rat hole in the name of catching up may be a bad idea.


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## Spencerthebuilder (May 12, 2021)

Interesting how Offshore wind farms are Covid remediation....


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## joeswine (May 12, 2021)

szap said:


> I have made it several times and it's always a big hit especially for those who like their reds off dry. It also has a more pronounced berry flavor.





Spencerthebuilder said:


> Jim, A good deal on a Generac vs. expensive high maintenance batteries for occasional power outages? Hands down the Generac! And if you have an extended power outage, your batteries are dead anyway. Net Meter and use the grid as your nightime battery.... Talk to your BIL about a ModCon hot water heater. That tanked standard HW heater is usually only about 50% efficient. Is that 70 gallon in the same room as your heated shop? Lots of standby loss there.. A small wall hung unit will pay for itself.
> 
> Want to go cutting edge? Residential CoGen units. Heat and power neoTower® LIVING 2.0 - 4.0 | cogeneration unit for your home





Spencerthebuilder said:


> This has implications for me locally. As the water is 200', the bases will be 300'. These will be basically offshore deep water drilling rig structures. They will be fabricated right next to the Electric Boat facility at the old Quonset Navy base., who has been screaming for employees to complete existing sub contracts for 3 years. Federal contracts. Can't get enough good workers who can pass a drug test.. Apartment vacancies are very tight. This will have interesting Macro ramifications . I want to see what the economics are. As long as it's not my money, I great! Build them. When it is my money, I care very much. Following the Dutch down a subsidized rat hole in the name of catching up may be a bad idea.


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## joeswine (May 12, 2021)

Spencerthebuilder, as a Hvac contractor I hold hardly agree with you , and what becomes of the waiste when its time is up.


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## Spencerthebuilder (May 12, 2021)

Waste? Couple of well placed shape charges. I foresee a new artificial reef. Otherwise known as dumping them.. Looks like they are out by the Tuna grounds near Hudson Canyon. Probably not too far from the wreck of the Andrea Doria. Well offshore, but not far from the shipping lanes.... It's above my pay grade to know the implications. but don't let silly questions get in the way of idealism.


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## Kraffty (May 17, 2021)

Still a painless and smooth process. It's only been three weeks since we signed the contract. Inspections, design, Arizona Power approval and today installation was completed. Now it's just wait for Arizona power to give ABP (solar co.) a sign off and final approval to throw the lever and fire it up. We were told that would be about 2 weeks from now so basically as soon as we get back from vacation. Just looking forward to getting it running, not that anything noticeable will change other than saving a few dollars a month.


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## jswordy (May 17, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> View attachment 74658
> 
> Still a painless and smooth process. It's only been three weeks since we signed the contract. Inspections, design, Arizona Power approval and today installation was completed. Now it's just wait for Arizona power to give ABP (solar co.) a sign off and final approval to throw the lever and fire it up. We were told that would be about 2 weeks from now so basically as soon as we get back from vacation. Just looking forward to getting it running, not that anything noticeable will change other than saving a few dollars a month.



Wow, that looks good. Smaller array than I would have figured, which is good too. And SPEEDY! I am impressed! Do you have battery backup? If so, where did they locate it? Thanks for the pic.


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## jswordy (May 17, 2021)

joeswine said:


> Spencerthebuilder, as a Hvac contractor I hold hardly agree with you , and what becomes of the waiste when its time is up.



Oh heck, if the planet turns into Mars I don't think we'll need to worry about the waste.  That's literally what it's going to come down to.









GE announces first US wind turbine blade recycling program with Veolia


The blades were the only part of the turbines not getting recycled, and will now be shredded to replace raw materials currently used for cement manufacturing, resulting in lower CO2 emissions.




www.utilitydive.com













Wind Turbine Blades Don’t Have To End Up In Landfills


In this blog post, we will examine land-based wind turbines and the recycling opportunities that exist but are not yet widely implemented for the turbine blades.



blog.ucsusa.org










Strategies for the recycling of wind turbine blades | REVE News of the wind sector in Spain and in the world







www.evwind.es


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## Kraffty (May 17, 2021)

We decided against the battery, for now at least. Our power supply here has been very reliable. The system has 22 - 8.03kW panels that are supposed to produce 13,942kWh (our total usage last year was 10,163).


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## joeswine (May 17, 2021)

Like I stated your in the correct climate zone for the solar experience.
Good move.


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## Spencerthebuilder (May 18, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> We decided against the battery, for now at least. Our power supply here has been very reliable. The system has 22 - 8.03kW panels that are supposed to produce 13,942kWh (our total usage last year was 10,163).


Good decision. Let the grid be your battery. Let the numbers guide the decisions. An 8 kw system is a nice size


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## ibglowin (May 18, 2021)

Did you give us a cost breakdown (including tax incentives) for your system? 



Kraffty said:


> View attachment 74658
> 
> Still a painless and smooth process. It's only been three weeks since we signed the contract. Inspections, design, Arizona Power approval and today installation was completed. Now it's just wait for Arizona power to give ABP (solar co.) a sign off and final approval to throw the lever and fire it up. We were told that would be about 2 weeks from now so basically as soon as we get back from vacation. Just looking forward to getting it running, not that anything noticeable will change other than saving a few dollars a month.


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## Kraffty (May 18, 2021)

We're kind of splitting the difference between the cash price and their full loan amount.
Cash was 24,552 less fed tax credit of 6, 382 for a total of $18,168
vs 25 year loan of 33,399 less 8,682 for $24,717 BUT at 1.99% or 106/mo you'd end up around $31,800
We're planning on making the minimum 106 payment for 4 years.

We're scheduled to pay off the house in 48 mo. then apply that payment amount to the solar paying it off in a little under 5 years total.
Total estimate cost total of $25,000.

That's roughly equal to 14 years of our current electric service costs BUT that's not accounting for utility increases which have approximately doubled over the last 13 to 15 years. 

Whether reasonable or not I'm justifying it as paying for all my future electric needs now while we have the extra money. Another step towards being as debt free as possible as we age.


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## Alan (May 19, 2021)

If you want to do solar, don't let cost effectiveness be the sole driver. There are other intangibles. We don't do it with such vigor for planting grapes, golf, a new vehicle, rv or other hobbies. Sometimes we do it for the warm feeling we get inside.


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## Ty520 (May 26, 2021)

I just had a 24 panel system installed, and can offer some insight.

I wouldn't install unless it will cover your average ANNUAL usage. Make sure that whoever is designing your system accounts for loss in efficiency (usually only a loss of 10% over lifespan of system), and uses conservative numbers in case they're wrong. If you're only supplementing, you'll still be cutting a check to the local power company,and like most,they're probably starting to steadily ramp up costs to offset federal efficiency laws placed on them.

Demand a guarantee on system production - usually should still be producing at 90% at 25 years. If they refuse,walk away.

Demand a warranty for ALL parts. A good system will warranty the panels AND inverters for 25 years - this is the average lifespan of systems today, so if the warranty is for less, again, walk away.

Demand a good warranty on work to your roof - no less then 10 years. Solar rigs require lots of holes in your roof. Again, if they refuse, walk away.

Make sure there is some sort of protection on your loan if the company goes under.

Crunch the numbers to prove to yourself that the return on investment is worth it: if energy savings plus credit over the course of the warranted lifespan of the system doesn't add up to what you paid then reconsider it's worth.

Verify the source of production. Unfortunately, there are Many bad companies our there who will sell you bad panels produced in bad countries like China that use child slave laborers in places like Africa to mine the rare earth metals needed. A good company will source products made here,in places like California or Oregon, and will source raw materials from places like Canada. The other problem with cheap foreign panels is that when there are issues with political relationships, acquiring parts can come to a stand still. On that note, all of these issues come together in that, companies that will try to sell you cheap foreign panels will probably not warranty their work and will probably not be around in 5 years. Choose a business that's been around a while. Avoid the ones that chase you down in places like home depot - they're usually the fly by night companies hawking junk panels


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## Ty520 (May 26, 2021)

Alan said:


> If you want to do solar, don't let cost effectiveness be the sole driver. There are other intangibles. We don't do it with such vigor for planting grapes, golf, a new vehicle, rv or other hobbies. Sometimes we do it for the warm feeling we get inside.



Unfortunately, that warm feeling you get may only be just that...the seven year old slave miner digging up the cobalt while wading through toxic sludge isn't impressed.


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## Alan (May 26, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> Unfortunately, that warm feeling you get may only be just that...the seven year old slave miner digging up the cobalt while wading through toxic sludge isn't impressed.




I have a 6kw grid-tie system in Minnesota. Panels made in Minnesota. 22 micro inverters. Geothermal heat/air conditioning. System supplies 75% of my electric needs. Got 30% federal tax credit. Monthly generation credit from utility. High generation bill credit and low usage during summer at high electric rates. Lower generation credit and higher usage at low electric winter heat rates. All credits stay with account to be used during high usage months. 27 cents per kw-hr rebate for annual total generation from State of Minnesota for using Minnesota-made panels. Will continue for 10 years. Paid cash for system. Panels and installer must meet performance guarantees in order it be eligible to participate in the Minnesota Dept of Commerce program. With monthly savings and rebates, system will be paid for in 7yr, 5m after installation. My current 12 month average electric bill is $45 per month. I am satisfied for a Minnesota installation.


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## heatherd (May 26, 2021)

Bkat said:


> From the link you shared for Twin Groves Wind Farm...
> 
> "The vast majority of wind farm equipment is manufactured in the United States."
> 
> Is this accurate?


When I was doing sustainability analyses for my clients a couple years ago, the wind equipment we were using was largely made here and the PV was largely made in China. There were a few PV makers here but one went out of business, so that will be one of the ways we can catch up is getting more PV made here. Renewables were subsidized during the Obama administration but not the most recent, but Biden is sure to refocus on it.


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## jswordy (May 31, 2021)

I read this article when it originally came out and thought that was a cool idea. If someone installed a metal roof and used these, it would solve a lot of problems inherent to other systems. Wonder why it didn't just take off?






Flexible Solar Panels for Any Roof – Mother Earth News


Where conventional glass and silicon solar panels cannot go, a new, lightweight innovation from solar manufacturer Sunflare may be the perfect solution.



www.motherearthnews.com


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## Kraffty (Jun 18, 2021)

So here's how it's working. We got activated a couple of weeks ago and have been experiencing really hot weather since then. During this entire week we've had record highs recorded almost daily and expect that to continue through the weekend. Our daily production has been as high as 53Kwh and low as 46.6 (monsoon overcast much of the afternoon yesterday) and usage while keeping the house at 75 around the clock.... drumroll please..... 37.6Kwh!

We absolutely have surplus energy even in extreme conditions and are feeding that back into the grid. Thanks everybody for all the shares and thoughts while we were looking into and deciding on doing this.


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## jswordy (Jun 19, 2021)

Kraffty said:


> So here's how it's working. We got activated a couple of weeks ago and have been experiencing really hot weather since then. During this entire week we've had record highs recorded almost daily and expect that to continue through the weekend. Our daily production has been as high as 53Kwh and low as 46.6 (monsoon overcast much of the afternoon yesterday) and usage while keeping the house at 75 around the clock.... drumroll please..... 37.6Kwh!
> 
> We absolutely have surplus energy even in extreme conditions and are feeding that back into the grid. Thanks everybody for all the shares and thoughts while we were looking into and deciding on doing this.



That is outstanding Mike! The best possible outcome.


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## ibglowin (Jun 19, 2021)

Fantastic news Mike!

Keep it up! 



Kraffty said:


> So here's how it's working. We got activated a couple of weeks ago and have been experiencing really hot weather since then. During this entire week we've had record highs recorded almost daily and expect that to continue through the weekend. Our daily production has been as high as 53Kwh and low as 46.6 (monsoon overcast much of the afternoon yesterday) and usage while keeping the house at 75 around the clock.... drumroll please..... 37.6Kwh!
> 
> We absolutely have surplus energy even in extreme conditions and are feeding that back into the grid. Thanks everybody for all the shares and thoughts while we were looking into and deciding on doing this.


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## jswordy (Jun 22, 2021)

@Kraffty For future reference? Here's a cool idea. 









Concrete flywheel storage system for residential PV


A French start-up has developed a concrete flywheel to store solar energy in an innovative way. Currently being tested in France, the storage solution will be initially offered in France's overseas territories and Africa.




www.pv-magazine.com





Growing up, I lived in the area of the largest railroad switch yard (then) in the USA. They had an ice plant there with a huge flywheel and motor. At night when rates were cheap, they would spin up the flywheel and then they would run the plant's mechanicals on it for most or all of a production day.


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## jdixon (Dec 29, 2021)

I always say look for other people upgrading their solar systems.

New systems are often sold as a package and the upgrade process usually includes removing the old panels and those people are often trying to get rid of them for cheap, powerproductionmanagement.com/residential buy a solar panel for home usually nothing wrong with them.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 29, 2021)

jdixon said:


> I always say look for other people upgrading their solar systems.



Gosh, I thought I was pretty much stuck with our present solar system! ☀


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## ratflinger (Dec 30, 2021)

jswordy said:


> Gotta do something to get us up to speed! What Congress did was extend the existing ITC... and it runs out in 2025, which should bring these projects online quickly. WE ARE SOOOO FAR BEHIND! I might add thet renewables have reduced utility costs in Europe, where they have been scaled up enough to do so.



I should put you in touch with my SIL in Germany. Last of the nuc plants are scheduled to be shut down in 2022. Elec bill is up 300% over the last few years. There may be some places in Europe that are paying reduced costs, but not northern Germany. Sad fact is that at this point in time renewables cost more.
Europe, as a whole produces 169 gigawatts of wind energy, whereas the US produces 122 gig. However, we have a lot more space to expand, where Europe does not.

Also, GE Power is the 4th largest producer of turbines, although they have various factories worldwide.


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## balatonwine (Jan 3, 2022)

ratflinger said:


> Europe, as a whole produces 169 gigawatts of wind energy, whereas the US produces 122 giig. However, we have a lot more space to expand, where Europe does not.



According to this journal article Europe has a wind energy potential of 52 TW. So Europe may not be as limited on expantion as you allude.









How much wind power potential does europe have? Examining european wind power potential with an enhanced socio-technical atlas


The continuous development of onshore wind farms is an important feature of the European transition towards an energy system powered by distributed re…




www.sciencedirect.com


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## ratflinger (Jan 3, 2022)

If you want to include offshore then fine, we have a bit of shoreline too. But in terms of empty space...


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## sour_grapes (Jan 4, 2022)

ratflinger said:


> If you want to include offshore then fine, we have a bit of shoreline too. But in terms of empty space...



The article assesses *onshore *windfarm capacity. From the abstract of the article:
_



This study assesses and simulates potential for future *onshore* wind turbine installations throughout Europe. (emphasis added)

Click to expand...

_


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