# Pushed bung into carboy-Wine now tastes like rubbe



## JKsmith (Dec 26, 2006)

When racking my peach wine from primary to secondary, I accidentally pushed the white rubber air lock bung into the carboy. I know, I know, pretty stupid mistake. Well, it gets worse from there.  My second mistake was thinking that since the rubber bung was made for this purpose, and was obviously food safe, it would be ok to leave it in the carboy until the next racking. I racked again a month later and although it tasted pretty harsh, as I was expecting, I really didn't detect anything out of the ordinary. Now, 2 months later, I just did a taste test and I can distinctly detect what I am interpreting as a a slight rubber taste. So, the question I have now is: have I forever ruined the entire batch? Or, will this off flavor fade with time? As you can probably imagine, I am just sick over this. Thanks in advance everyone for any input you can provide!


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## Wade E (Dec 26, 2006)

Dont know myself as I have never done this but I would say it will fade over time.I hope!


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## kutya (Dec 26, 2006)

I haven't done it either, but I'm with Wade, the taste will fade with time...


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## pkcook (Dec 27, 2006)

I'm by no means a chemist and I don't know the exact chemical composition of the rubber the bungs are made of, but I would think that if exposed to alcohol for a month or two, they would begin to break down. I know that they will begin to break down if exposed to direct sunlight for prolonged periods of time.


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## PolishWineP (Dec 27, 2006)

Is the wine still in the carboy or bottled? I think if it's in the carboy yet, I think there is hope. 
What *I would do* is filter it into another carboy to remove any rubber particles that may be in there. *I would* give it a couple of months and give it a taste. It may improve over that time. It may not. If it didn't improve over the months *I would* try to fix the flavor issue with a flavor concentrate. You may not end up with the wine you started out making, but you could end up with a decent table wine.
**Pls note, these are the things that *I would* try. Bert may not agree with me.**


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## smurfe (Dec 27, 2006)

If this wine hasn't been bottled, I would follow PWP advice and would do the same thing myself. I think I would rack it a couple times to aerate it a little and age a bit longerand then filter it and let it age a while longer. 


I would also get another person to taste it that has no idea that you dropped the stopper in it to make sure you aren't just freaking out because you think you ruined your wine. You never know, it might be a psychological thing.


It is hard to tell if there truly is an after taste from the stopper if it will go away or not. Only time will tell about that.


Smurfe


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## rshosted (Dec 27, 2006)

I was thinking, I might consider what the bung is. Probably it was still in tact when you got it out (or racked the win). So probably if anything it is an oil. So is there some additive like maybe calcium carbonate (just a small ammount you could put in? Then filter the wine to sterile .5 micron (though you wouldn't want to do that normally maybe). Then add a little more acid to recover the acid that was lost. Then probably another clarifier like KC clear or bentonite since clay will sometimes absorb the flavors too. Then if needed re-filter at .5 micron. 

I'm still trying to think of something that might collect silicone that you could put into the wine.....



(that won't kill you or your wine)

I would probably do it all since it would be better than losing a batch...


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Great advice everyone, thanks!!Now, I apologize for not mentioning this earlier but I honestly did not think about it until I was describing the problem to someone else. I oversulphited slightly and I'mtold that too much sulphite can cause a "rubber" like taste as well. I guess I had tunnel vision and all of my focus was on the bung and I might have overlooked a more obvious cause. Anyway, I sulphited at the rate of approx. 3/8 tsp /gal instead of 1/4 /gal because I was planning on bulk aging this wine for at least a year and my thinking was that in that amount of time, the extra sulphite would dissipate and not be an issue a year down the road. So, do you think what I am tasting is actually the sulphite and not the rubber bung? Again, I am fairly new to all of this so please forgive my stupidity as it relates to this situation!


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Also, how effective is splash racking when it comes to driving off excess SO2, if that is indeed my problem,and what is the best way (also affordable) to check SO2 levels? Thanks!!


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## masta (Dec 27, 2006)

Please don't say you added 3/8 tsp of k-meta per gal because if did the rubber like taste is most likely the sulfite. At that rate you added ~330 ppm of free sulfite which is extremely high.


Not sure racking and splashing can reduce the level from &gt;300 ppm.


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Yeah, unfortunately, instead of adding a total of 1.5 tsp I added 2.25 tsp. Do you think in a year's time it will dissipate to an acceptable level? (That plus several rackings?)


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## bmorosco (Dec 27, 2006)

The rubber the bungs are made to keep air out or in...they are not made for contact with alcohol.. they will break down and just like oak become part of your wine..So I am not sure if you will ever get the taste out..


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## masta (Dec 27, 2006)

You might be able to aerate the wine enough to reduce the S02 but I have my doubts. The best bet would be to make at least another batch and blend the two. You have enough sulfite in this batch to protect 6 batches!!


*You should only be adding 1/4 tsp of k-meta to 6 gals not 1/4 tsp per 1 gal after it is complete to properly protect your wine for long term aging/storage.*






Potassium metabisulfite, 1 gram = 150 ppm in 1 gallon, 30 ppm in 5 gallons
Potassium metabisulfite, ¼ teaspoon = 225 ppm in 1 gallon, 45 ppm in 5 gallons
Potassium metabisulfite, 1½ tablespoon to 1 gallon water makes ½% solution for washing equipment
Potassium metabisulfite, 2 oz. to 1 quart water makes 5% solution for sterilizing must (1 teaspoon solution per gallon of must)
1 Campden tablet contains 0.55 grams potassium metabisulfite, yielding 75 ppm SO2 to one gallon of must or wine


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## Wade E (Dec 27, 2006)

Gee Masta, I think hes got me beat on that one. JK, I did the same
thing only in the beginning to a 6 gallon batch and a 2 gallon batch
before I even added yeast. I didnt even bother trying to fix mine
though becuse I didnt want to waste anymore time or money seeing as how
it was so far gone. I added the 1/4 tsp per gallon like you meant to.
You have taken it 1 step furter than me and I feel your pain. I hope
you can work it out seeing as how yours was already finished.





















!


*Edited by: wade *


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Well I just ordered a so2 titret kit from George so I can tell what my actual levels are. At that point, I'm sure I will see that it is too far gone to save. :-( To make matters worse, I just found out where part of my problem stemmed from. I was under the mistaken impression that K-Meta and Na-Meta were basically the same since campden tablets come in either form and the dosage rate is 1 tablet per gal. for both. Well, I assumed that the dosage rate would also be the same for the powdered versons. BIG MISTAKE!! In actuality, the dosage rate for k-meta is, as I thought, 1/4 tsp per gallon, however, the dosage rate for na-meta is 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons!!! So, not only did I over sulphite based on k-meta rates, I REALLY over did it when I used na-meta instead of k-meta. It's been a heck of a learning experience to be sure but I just hate the fact that I probably trashed what I think would have been a very good wine.


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## Wade E (Dec 27, 2006)

Actually then, being if you used na=meta you are better off this way.
You would need more of this then k-meta. so its not AS bad as you
thought.


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

I think it's the other way around. But then again, at this point, don't listen to me!!



My thought process on this is as follows, since na-meta only needs 1/4 tsp to treat 5 gallons, and k-meta needs that same amount to only treat 1 gallon, would that not mean that the na-meta is 5 times more powerful than the k-meta and thus I added 1 entire tsp too much?


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## masta (Dec 27, 2006)

JKsmith said:


> Well I just ordered a so2 titret kit from George so I can tell what my actual levels are. At that point, I'm sure I will see that it is too far gone to save. :-( To make matters worse, I just found out where part of my problem stemmed from. I was under the mistaken impression that K-Meta and Na-Meta were basically the same since campden tablets come in either form and the dosage rate is 1 tablet per gal. for both. Well, I assumed that the dosage rate would also be the same for the powdered versons. BIG MISTAKE!! In actuality, the dosage rate for k-meta is, as I thought, 1/4 tsp per gallon, however, the dosage rate for na-meta is 1/4 tsp per 5 gallons!!! So, not only did I over sulphite based on k-meta rates, I REALLY over did it when I used na-meta instead of k-meta. It's been a heck of a learning experience to be sure but I just hate the fact that I probably trashed what I think would have been a very good wine.




Not sure where you are getting your info but I have never seen campden tablets that contain Na-Meta (Sodium Metabisulfite)...but then again I don't use them. They also contain more than just K-meta to help bind it together in a tablet form and they come in different strengths depending on who makes them!!!


Na-meta is roughly 7% stronger than K-meta (Potassium Metabisulfite) but for all practical purposes you can measure them the same way and the dosage rate is the same.


*One campden tablet = 1/8 to 1/10 of a tsp of Na-meta or K-meta*


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Go to the Online store here and read the photographed labels on both the LD Carlson 1lb package of k-meta as well as na-meta. On the label, they clearly list the dosage rates for k-meta as 1/4 tsp per gal and on the na-meta they list it as 1/4 tsp for 5 gal. That's where I was getting my figures from. Also, you will see that George sells campden tablets made from both types. So, now I'm more confused than ever. If they are supposed to basically be interchangeable, why such a disparity in the labeling? Why does the na-meta appear to be 5 times stronger? HELP!!!!


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## Wade E (Dec 27, 2006)

Yes you are right, I'm working to many hours and cant think straight
anymore. I guess I'll leave my wine alone tonight as I dont want ton
try any math on any batches tonight!


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## masta (Dec 27, 2006)

Sorry bout that JKsmith...I stand corrected on the potassium and sodium campden tablets.




I truly understand your confusion on dosage as the packaging instructions are not clear at all and adding 1/4 tsp of K-meta to kill wild yeast will certainly work but might also prevent many strains of yeast the ability to start fermentation.


I will discuss this issue with George and will come up with a plan to try to prevent future confusion.


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## Wade E (Dec 27, 2006)

Masta and JK, I wonder if this is like the instructions on the Vintners
Harvest Wine bases. They said to use this amount but to dilute it into
a cup of water then add a bsmall amount of that into the must.

This is taken right off the Vintners Harvest Base Label although it has changed alittle since I screwed it up that time.



*ON MAKING AND USING SULFITE (SULPHITE) SOLUTION*



We make a distinction between using powdered sodium (or potassium)
bisulphite and a sulfite solution. Please be aware of this difference
as it will affect your winemaking process. Dissolve 5 teaspoons of
sodium or potassium bisulphite powder into 1 cup (8 ounces) of water to
make the bisulphite solution. Of this liquid, you add one liquid
teaspoon per gallon of must (unfermented juice) when directed. Use 1 to
2 teaspoons of liquid solution per gallon of water to sanitize
equipment.</font>


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## grapeman (Dec 27, 2006)

JKsmith said:


> Go to the Online store here and read the photographed labels on both the LD Carlson 1lb package of k-meta as well as na-meta. On the label, they clearly list the dosage rates for k-meta as 1/4 tsp per gal and on the na-meta they list it as 1/4 tsp for 5 gal. That's where I was getting my figures from. Also, you will see that George sells campden tablets made from both types. So, now I'm more confused than ever. If they are supposed to basically be interchangeable, why such a disparity in the labeling? Why does the na-meta appear to be 5 times stronger? HELP!!!!




Maybe George can check the labels and see if they still say that- sounds like a mistake. According to the larger size packages 1/8 teaspoon per gallon give 150 ppm, so 1/4 teaspoon per gallon would give 300 ppm- way too high. If that is divided into 6 gallons, you get 50ppm-the desired rate. Even commercial wines aren't supposed to exceed 75 ppm sulphite.


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Ha! I hear ya. That's how I feel right now too except I can't blame my screw up on anything other than myself!!


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## JKsmith (Dec 27, 2006)

Let me just say once again how appreciative I am to EVERYONE for all of the constructive and courteous comments made concerning my issue. I have learned, and continue to learn on a daily basis, so much from all of you. What a great place this is and what a truly outstanding group of people contribute here. Thanks so much everybody!!!!!!!


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## Wade E (Dec 27, 2006)

Dont forget that while you are learning, so are we.


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## Cracked Cork (Dec 28, 2006)




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## bmorosco (Dec 28, 2006)

So the packaging is right or wrong?????


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## masta (Dec 28, 2006)

I would say it gives the wrong information for normal dosage rates from everything I have read. The key here is that is says "to kill wild yeast add 1/4 tsp per gal of must" which will certainly work.
Sit tight until we can get more info on the labeling and reasons behind it.


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## JKsmith (Dec 28, 2006)

Will do. Thanks Masta!


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## geocorn (Dec 28, 2006)

This question came to me before Christmas, but LD did not get back to me until today. That "1/4 per gallon is a mis-print",it has been corrected and should read "1/4 tsp. per 5 gallons" for either Sodium Meta or Potassium Meta.


I was unaware that the picture I have aslo has the incorrect infomation. I will correct it this week and I apologize for this confusion. If anyone needs a credit for a bad batch of wine, please contact me in a email.


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## Wade E (Dec 28, 2006)

So they are both the same and not one higher than the other, huh!


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## masta (Dec 28, 2006)

wade said:


> So they are both the same and not one higher than the other, huh!




Yes since the difference in the amount of sulfite that is added is so small (7-8%). They both are equal in ability to sanitize and as a wine additive so the only real difference is the price.



*Edited by: masta *


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