# Juice pails vs Kits



## Droc (Mar 7, 2014)

I was hoping someone could share their experiences and tell me what the major differences are between pails and kits. I've done a couple kits so far and really like them, but with the availability of juice pails and the price I'm going to give those a shot. I have read that with pails, you don't get the "kit" taste, but that they are a little more work which is fine with me.
Also, I've noticed a pretty big discrepancy in the price some of the juice pails sell at. Harford Vineyard is selling Chilean juice pails for $53 while M$M sells Chilean Must pails for $115. Is there that big of a difference between the two (one being juice and one being must)? I am planning on getting a couple 18lb lugs of grapes for my juice pails to add some more body to them.


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## Turock (Mar 7, 2014)

We've made many juice buckets. M&M has a great reputation for only the best. If you get buckets with must in them, they would be much better than just the juice alone. I don't think you could ever go wrong getting a bucket from M&M. Some of these juice buckets from Chile are not the best. Either the grapes had alot of rain right before harvest or the juice was watered down. A couple years ago we got a Chard from Chile--it was like getting a bucket of water. Almost no flavor.

But we've had good success with the reds. Pinto Noir,Cab Franc, Cabernet and Chianti. The juice buckets are easier than a kit. They come to you all balanced out and even have the culture in them. All you need to add is nutrient. 

Our Cabernet from last year is really fabulous already. We did an MLF on it and recently tasted it and it's one of the best Cabs I ever tasted. If you can't get the variety of grape you'd like to ferment, a juice bucket is the next best way to go. In the spring you can Chilean juice and in the fall get buckets from Calif. That way, you always have some great wines going.


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## Droc (Mar 7, 2014)

Yeah, my plan for this year is to get two or three buckets of Chilean juice from harford vineyard next month and a couple lugs of grapes and then do California grapes this fall. I'm actually going to be in San Diego visiting friends and family in June, so I might make a run up to temecula and see if I can't talk one of the vineyards there into selling me some grapes. I'm not to confident, but it never hurts to try. 


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## harleydmn (Mar 7, 2014)

I have been getting chilean juice now for 3 years from Harford and my wife loves it. I usally will add my own yeast.


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## jzabron (Mar 7, 2014)

I've got an order in for five buckets of chilean juice which is due to arrive to me here in Albany, NY in early May. With the buckets, when I get them, do I need to move quickly and primary ferment all of them as soon as I get them? Do I have any storage time for them, if so, what are the required storage conditions (Do I need to use KMeta to inhibit any natural yeast?)?


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## HenryMae (Mar 7, 2014)

Where do you order juice buckets from...?


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## jzabron (Mar 7, 2014)

HenryMae said:


> Where do you order juice buckets from...?



I've found a local supermarket that takes in an order of Chilean Grapes, Must, and Juice Buckets.

Check with your LHBS as they may have word of mouth knowledge as to the local areas to get fresh juice.


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## geek (Mar 8, 2014)

Turock said:


> But we've had good success with the reds. Pinto Noir,Cab Franc, Cabernet and Chianti. The juice buckets are easier than a kit. They come to you all balanced out and even have the culture in them. All you need to add is nutrient.



I was always under the impression that juice buckets are usually out of balance as the packing company only pitch the yeast so you get the bucket pre-inoculated.

In your experience, have you always check the PH on the juice buckets and ever needed to adjust?
.


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## terroirdejeroir (Mar 8, 2014)

I would be very grateful for any information regarding how I can get Chilean juice/grapes in mid-Missouri. I was supposed to get a California Cab MM Sonoma Edition from FVW, but the pails thawed in shipment and "blew up". George has indicated he will no longer ship frozen must. I am willing to drive a bit if necessary, but not all the way to Harford in Maryland...


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## Turock (Mar 8, 2014)

Geek--Yes we do check the PH but these days we don't need to adjust it. We like to know PH so that we know how much free SO2 the wine will need. Years ago, a juice bucket came to you with nothing done to it except a dose of SO2. So we always had to adjust them--but today you don't need to that unless,stylistically, you would want to. As harley said, if you want to use a different yeast, you can make a yeast starter of the culture you choose and it will overwhelm the culture that they put into the bucket. Don't quote me on this--but on the reds I think they put RC212 in as the culture. The bucket usually has the PH and TA noted on the bucket.

jzabron---Because they come inoculated, and the ferment has usually begun, you want to get your first nutrient dose in there right away. Letting the buckets sit without nutrient could give you a stressed yeast and H2S problems. The buckets we get have a pressure valve in the lid--so you don't even need an airlock. Just stir it up every day and put the lid back on. I wouldn't add any meta--especially if you're going to do an MLF. We never add meta--it's already been added and the culture has started taking off by the time we get it. I wouldn't bother with a hydrometer reading either, as it will not be accurate because the ferment has already started.

Henry-- we get our buckets from the local winery who has them shipped in. I'm sure others can tell you how they get theirs when they don't have a supplier close by. I think M&M ships anywhere.


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## Droc (Mar 8, 2014)

Turock, so if I understand what your saying I should hurry when I get my pails to get my grapes crushed and juiced to get them in. I was hoping on waiting a day or two after I got the grapes in so I could get a more accurate OG reading. I'm actually planning on fermenting each pail in two primaries to account for the extra juice from the grapes and then doing MLF after I rack when it goes dry. 


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## geek (Mar 8, 2014)

Turock, plus once the yeast is already added and the ferment already started you can't really make adjustments, can you?


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## Pumpkinman (Mar 8, 2014)

I have to respectfully disagree with Turocks statement that Juice buckets are easier than kits, kits are not only stabilized and balanced, they come packaged with everything that anyone will need to make the wine, including step by step instructions, they are designed to be fool proof.
With juice buckets, they are stabilized to avoid spoilage, and most, not all have yeast added that is supposed to be dormant while the buckets are kept in a cooler. 
You are in total control of every step of the wine making process, every thing that the wine maker does from the moment you purchase the juice bucket until the time you bottle will effect your wine.
Geek - why can't you adjust the wine after fermentation has started? It is always better to make adjustments before hand, but if you taste the wine and feel it needs adjustments, you won't make them because fermentation has completed? That's nuts, you've been making wine long enough to know that.
Droc- you can wait until the following day to test the must, you can cold soak the grapes, as long as you keep them 45 -50 degrees, it will help to pull more out of the grapes as well.

I always add my own yeast, the key is to hydrate the yeast usnig go-ferm and tempering it with some of the must to ensure that the yeast is reproducing/multiplying creating a big healthy colony that becomes the dominant yeast.


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## jzabron (Mar 8, 2014)

@Pumpkinman: so when I get my juice buckets, do I need to rush and ferment them all simultaneously?


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## Turock (Mar 8, 2014)

Droc--I would think that would be the best tactic. Are you just going to use the juice from the grapes or use the grapes with their skins? I have to say I've never done this, but I would think you'd want to crush and use the grapes themselves? That would add lots of goodness to the bucket and really firm the flavor! You know--it depends too on how the bucket is stored before you get it. The winery that we get ours from sticks them in his freezer if he has room--and that will keep the ferment from starting. But most often, he has them on pallets in the back room and if it's warm enough, the ferment has begun.

Geek--what kind of changes would you want to make? These buckets turn out swell on their own, but I suppose you could tweak it--what do you have in mind? You could add some tannin if you think it's needed. We taste the bucket to see what we think of the tannin level--but we've never tweaked it with tannin for the primary ferment. Totally up to you.


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## Turock (Mar 8, 2014)

Well, I have to say I've never made a kit. But done LOTS of bucket juice and I have to say it's the easiest wine we make!! Maybe I'm just comparing it to the labor of picking,crushing, and doing all the chemistry adjustments with grapes and fruit!! 

Basically, you can do ANYTHING you'd like with a bucket--but if you don't WANT to---then just toss in some nutrient and away you go and the result is great. I guess I was just pointing out that you don't need to over-think this if you choose not to.


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## geek (Mar 8, 2014)

I never adjusted juice buckets because, as when you make DB, I thought the adjustment needs to be done before the yeast is pitched.

Juice buckets were my first adventure, then I tried fresh grapes and also kits. But the buckets were never added a grape skins pack until this past fall that I made 1 Merlot.

Again, I was always under the impression that juice buckets were never checked for PH/TA by the packing company and that only yeast was pitched.


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## bkisel (Mar 8, 2014)

My LHBS is now taking orders for Chilean grapes and juice. For juice they have Mosti Mondiale (4 choices @ $82.00 and 4 $92.00 per 6 gallons) and Toro Negra (all 15 @ $62.00 per 6 gallons) brand juice pails. Does anyone here know the difference between these two brands that explain such a big dollar difference? I will be making a trip in a week or two to the LHBS so, though it'd be nice, it is not imperative that I get an explanation here. 

Thanx...


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## geek (Mar 8, 2014)

Bill, they claim (Jay) that MM is a more premium juice and it is pre-inoculated and balanced.
They claim that Toro Negro is NOT inoculated or balanced.

I am really surprised because every time I bought Toro Negro has been pre-inoculated.....hmmmm

..


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## ScottyB (Mar 8, 2014)

I bought the Toro Negro last year and when I got it home and checked SG, PH and TA SG was low so I made adjustments... What I didn't know was that it had already started fermenting! Long story short I couldn't get it totally dry. So it must have been pre-inoculated. 


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## bkisel (Mar 8, 2014)

geek said:


> Bill, they claim (Jay) that MM is a more premium juice and it is pre-inoculated and balanced.
> They claim that Toro Negro is NOT inoculated or balanced.
> 
> I am really surprised because every time I bought Toro Negro has been pre-inoculated.....hmmmm
> ...



Geek, Have you bought both at one time or another? Is or do you think that the MM is worth the $26-$30 dollar difference?

I don't have test equipment and don't want to invest in any so I can forget about the Black Bull brand.


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## Pumpkinman (Mar 8, 2014)

Bill,
I think it is worth it just for the care that they take with their products, keeping them at the correct temps in a clean environment.
Jzabron,
You should at least wait until the temp of the juice reaches a temp that is tolerated by the yeast that you will using, this could be between 50° - 86° depending on the yeast.
I usually let mine get to 65°- 70° for two reasons, I test all of the juice pails before I start, PH, TA and SO2,this can take an hr or so depending on how many I am making, but, I can make the proper adjustments before starting. If I plan on adding 9- 10 lbs of fresh destemmed and crushed grapes, this also takes a few hrs depending on the quantity i need to prep.
I may add a pectinase and opti red (for my reds obviously) at this point and let sit to cold soak to get everything I can out of the grapes to make that wine taste as good as possible!
Once all of mt "T's" are crossed and my "I's" are dotted, I hydrate the yeast and pitch it.

So in short....you don't have to add the yeast the moment that you get home.


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## geek (Mar 8, 2014)

Bill, I never bought MM so I can't comment but I'd buy the Toro Negro again with no doubt.


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## jzabron (Mar 8, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> Bill,
> I think it is worth it just for the care that they take with their products, keeping them at the correct temps in a clean environment.
> Jzabron,
> You should at least wait until the temp of the juice reaches a temp that is tolerated by the yeast that you will using, this could be between 50° - 86° depending on the yeast.
> ...



@Pumpkinman: As long as I am able to store them below 50 degrees or less, fermentation _ shouldnt _ begin correct? Once I bring the juice up to temp, I can hydrate and pitch my desired yeast in correct? I am completely new to the juice bucket scene.


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## Pumpkinman (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes, if you can maintain a temp at 50° or below you should be fine.
Ask as many questions as you need to, we are all glad to help.

Tom


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## jzabron (Mar 8, 2014)

Looks like I'm going to need a few more carboys! I guess this is what people mean when they "multiply" haha.


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## Droc (Mar 9, 2014)

I was just thinking the same thing. I have two red wines bulk aging, a cyser I want to age six months or so before I back sweeten, so it looks like I have to get some more carboys also...


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## hvac36 (Mar 9, 2014)

Carboys and stainless steel tanks multiply around here all the time, I'm at the point where I'm adding and addition to the house this spring 12 x15 and that will be attached to the 12 x 10 room I have now..... I just don't know where they all come from lol...


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