# Advice in Setting Grape Area



## RedSun (Nov 18, 2014)

This is just a small grape area for experimenting. I'd like to hear some points here before I sink in my trellis.

I'm in Zone 6, near Princeton area. My grape area is about 58' long, from East to West. It gets full southern sun exposure. This is an old farm land, flat.

The grapes are mostly standard table grapes, for fresh eating, juice and maybe some wine if I have energy to try it. They are like Concord seeded, Glenora, Himrod, Venessa, etc.

For the trellis, I'm thinking of the Hudson River Umbrella. It is relative simple. I plan to use two end posts (at least 4x4, 4x6), then lighter line posts for every two vines. The line posts can be either metal T-post or 2x4 wood posts.

If I do not brace the end posts, I can probably set 7 vines, 8' spacing. I can pour some concrete under the end posts, or sink in longer and stronger end posts. I save about 8' without bracing.

If I brace the end posts, like earth anchor, then if I plant 7 vines, the spacing has to be 7'. Or I can grow 6 vines, with 8.5' spacing. 

Here I just do not know if end posts bracing is necessary or not. 6 or 7 vines are not very heavy, I figure....


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## oregondabbler (Nov 18, 2014)

You might be able to brace your trellis without sacrificing space. See the picture below. It came from the following publication: http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/hortcult/fruits/grograps.htm

My vineyard has 6 foot spacing between vines. Not sure where the guidance for 8' spacing came from...just saying that you might be able to cram a few more vines in there given that you will be able to more intensively manage them compared to a commercial grower. 

Growing grapes is a great deal of fun, effort as well as a way to learn more about the world of wine. Go for it! and have a great time. Let us know how it works out.


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## grapeman (Nov 19, 2014)

If you don't use end bracing you could split it into three sections- using two end posts and two line posts. Don't use 2x4 for posts- just buy regular 4x4 with some type of treatment or things will rot out too quickly. If you could squeak 60 feet out, then you have 20 feet between posts (a good spacing). That will give you roughly 6'8" between vines and works well for most varieties. Personally I don't like setting in concrete here because the frost gets under it and raises the whole thing up. H-Braces like Oregondabbler shows works alright but don't tension the wire brace too tight or it lifts the end post up.


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## RedSun (Nov 19, 2014)

Yes, 4x4 is no problem. I can stretch it to 60'. But if I divide it into 3 section, then I can only place 6 vines. 

The other way is just to space 7x8'. 2 line posts, to divide it into 2+2+3 vines. 18' between two vines should be ok.

If I do not brace it, then I can probably get stronger end posts, sink them more (like 3') and use gravel to firm up the posts.


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## RedSun (Nov 19, 2014)

Also, if I sink the end post at a slight angle, say 15 degree from vertical, and sink it 2.5' to 3', would this be better than just sink it straight vertical?

I'm just thinking for 7 vines, all the bracing may be over-kill. They are for like 400+ feet rows.


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## grapeman (Nov 19, 2014)

If you go with 3- 20 foot sections, then like I said there can be 3 vines at 6 foot 8 inch spacing which is a good space for your varieties. 3 times 3 is 9 vines not 6. Earth anchors are optional for a 60 foot row. Without them, you can get more sagging and the end posts can pull in a bit. If you don't mind a bit of maintenance to tighten them and straighten posts it should work fine without them.


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## RedSun (Nov 19, 2014)

6.5' spacing seems tight, particularly for the American (table) grapes. 

I think some folks release the tension of the wires in dormant season. That may help the bending of the posts.

How heavy can the vine be, say a Concord seeded, 10 years old?


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## grapeman (Nov 19, 2014)

Maybe you will believe Double A's suggestions for spacing varieties. Here is a link. http://www.doubleavineyards.com/Images/Grapevine%20Characteristic%20Chart.pdf
I have these varieties in the vineyard except for Vanessa. 6 and two thirds feet is fine for them. Ideally the 10 year old vine will not be a lot heavier than a 5 year old vine. You want to fill the canopy space as soon as you can. 
You are welcome to use tensioners if you want but many growers are using gripples now and don't find a need to loosen high tensile wire. This is a very hard wire and does not grow or shrink much with temperature change.


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## RedSun (Nov 20, 2014)

This is a picture of the trellis I like to build. It has a long row, round post (6"?) at end, braced. T-post every 4 vines. Then the 3rd line post is the 6" round post again. The row appears very long (500'?). 

The in-row spacing looks like about 5', tight.

If I build a short row (100') trellis, I may use 4x6 as end posts. I can use 4x4 as some of the line posts. The metal posts last much longer. But I think they do rust over time.


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## RedSun (Nov 20, 2014)

Another photo. Look how tight the vines are.


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## grapeman (Nov 20, 2014)

Not sure where the picture is from, but those look like grafted vines to me so they well might be vinifera. If you look at the chart at the link I gave you, you will find most vinifera are planted 4 to 6 feet apart. Ultimately it will be you deciding how to build the trellis, what to plant and what training system you will use on the vines.


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## RedSun (Nov 20, 2014)

That is a university education program. They do grow Vitis vinifera, some grafted. It appears the trellis has one two sets of wires, but with the lower wires for tying the vines only. The irrigation pipe is attached to the lower wire.

It is not that I like their spacing, but I like the layout, particularly the post placement. If that kind of setup can support a 500' row, then the requirement will be lower than that for a 100' row.


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