# Do you fill our carboy with argon gas before racking?



## abefroman (Oct 28, 2010)

Do you fill our carboy with argon gas before racking? Does it make a difference?

If so where do you get argon?


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## closetwine (Oct 28, 2010)

Airgas or other welding supply stores carry food grade gases. I don't know of anyone who has done that though. Also resturant supply stores should carry it if it's food grade.


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## JohnT (Oct 29, 2010)

A few folks do, but I am unconvinced it is worth the trouble... 

My wines tend to be high is tannins. I actually want a very small amount of O2 (as the wine ages) to smooth out the wine. 

Also, The only time I leave any kind of void in any of my vessels is during fermentation. All other times I keep the vessels as full as possible. As a result, there is a minute amount of air exposure. Not nearly enough to cause any kind of oxidation. 

If you make sure that the wine is balanced (PH/Acid) and has a good level of tannins, you have nothing to worry about. I see no real need for the expense or the time/trouble for this (IMHO). Others, however, will disagree.


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## Runningwolf (Oct 29, 2010)

John we will never disagree with you. LOL John is absolutley right in what he said about topping up all the time and you'll be fine. There are times though when you rack and you're not able to though and thats when you can use the argon.


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## AlFulchino (Nov 1, 2010)

if my tanks are very full, i can avoid gassing and have aged wines for yrs w no illl affects of NOT having argon for example...but if there is an undesirable amount of headspace then in my view you must consider it....sometimes even w my flex tanks and the floating skin i just feel a bit safer w a layer of gas

i am getting ready to do my annual layering of argon on wines during the rackings that i will do during the next month after oaking and stabilizing and any other chores....the article at this site (below) is a good reminder of argon's value and economy...further more it reminds me of the necessity to deliver the gas at slow rates a possible

http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleArgon2.htm


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## Wade E (Nov 1, 2010)

I also agree, if you have your vessel topped up there is no need inmost cases. If we are talking anout transferring 300 gallons of white wine into an empty tank then purging it with argon is probably a good idea though.


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## pightr (Nov 1, 2010)

if your looking for small bottles of the gas you can find it at some wine stores. I found mine at Bevmo stores for 9.95 a bottle.


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## AlFulchino (Nov 2, 2010)

what is the capacity of these tanks at the wine store?


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## Runningwolf (Nov 2, 2010)

Al, those tanks are very small under a lot of pressure. There is no way of knowing how much is going in without a flo meter and also your splashing the wine due to the high pressure. A very expensive way to go except in emergency cases.


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## AlFulchino (Nov 2, 2010)

you are right...you need a flow meter


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## VitaminJay (Jan 18, 2011)

Long time brewer, first time wine maker...

I've been reading many threads here about headspace and it seems to be universally accepted that minimizing the surface area in the carboy is best/easiest. My issue is that I plan on fermenting with two different kinds of yeast to have a taste off. Thus, I'll have two containers that are half full. 

What should I do to prevent oxidation? Use argon? Some other chemical inhibitor? I'd appreciate any advice.


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## Runningwolf (Jan 18, 2011)

I would seriously consider getting smaller vessels. Whether it is 2 three gallon carboys or 6 one gallon.


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## sly22guy (Jan 18, 2011)

Use smaller containers. Fill the void with sanitized marbles. or use gas


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## EngineJoe (Jan 18, 2011)

sly22guy said:


> Use smaller containers. Fill the void with sanitized marbles. or use gas



Be careful with the sanitized marbles route if using glass carboys. You don't want to drop them in there (whether full or empty) and have them crack or chip the carboy bottom. It's a great strategy for cutting headspace without topping off, but just be smart.


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## chachi44089 (Jan 18, 2011)

This is just a thought..Wonder if anybody has ever tried to develop a food grade oil or other chemical that had a lighter specific gravity than the wine that would float on the surface of the wine preventing oxygen or other impurities from contacting the surface of the wine yet still allows the co2 and other gasses to pass through. Much like vegetable oil floats on water and allows the bubbles to pass through. Just my mind wandering..


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## Runningwolf (Jan 18, 2011)

That was done in the old days I believe with olive oil. Then you rack from under it.


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## Brian (Jan 18, 2011)

I would just be worried about the flavor from something like that getting into the wine????


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## chachi44089 (Jan 18, 2011)

Hehe cool.. Guess I wont get rich from that idea..lol.. I thought the same about it addiing a taste too.. Olive oil does have taste "I cook with it alot". It would have to be a neutral or tasteless oil. But still quite interesting. It would be easy to rack from under.. Might be a bit nasty if you racked it into the last bottle during bottling...Might be a neat experiment to try..Think I will pass though..


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## robie (Jan 18, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> what is the capacity of these tanks at the wine store?



Those little spray cans of what I believe is argon, has almost no weight at all. When I first bought one, I shook it and felt nothing. I thought the can must have leaked. The gas was still there alright, just a very small quantity. They are meant to top off opened bottle of wine to keep the wine from spoiling.

Those little cans work, but wow, are they expensive!


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## BobF (Jan 18, 2011)

I agree with the answers so far re: headspace in a carboy that's already been racked into. If I understand your original question correctly, you asked about gassing the carboy *before* racking into it.

I store my clean carboys with a bit of sulfite in them, so I figure they've been purged with SO2 before filling them up.


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## Lurker (Jan 19, 2011)

Like Dan said oil on top is the old timers way to protect the wine. My Barber still does it, he uses the least expensive olive oil that he can get. He finally stopped using those old barrols and now uses glass only.


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## ibglowin (Jan 19, 2011)

Sounds like your talking about those little cans of "Private Reserve". Those are great for topping off an open bottle of wine but thats it. Way to expensive to even think about using for our needs! 

And your right they do feel like they are totally empty!



robie said:


> Those little spray cans of what I believe is argon, has almost no weight at all. When I first bought one, I shook it and felt nothing. I thought the can must have leaked. The gas was still there alright, just a very small quantity. They are meant to top off opened bottle of wine to keep the wine from spoiling.
> 
> Those little cans work, but wow, are they expensive!


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## VitaminJay (Jan 19, 2011)

OK. So it sounds like I have three options:

1. Smaller container. 
2. Marbles
3. Gas

1. is expensive but will work. I would need to buy food grade gas-impermeable 3 gallon containers. A cost of roughly $60 and then I've got to store them someplace when I'm done. 

2. totally impractical due to the volume needed. We're talking about bringing 3 gallons up to the neck of a 5 gallon glass carboy times 2 carboys. 

3. Also expensive. Or is it? It looks like I can buy a 10 pack of 16g Argon cartridges for around $30, which is far less than buying 2 new carboys. Plus, I can use the Argon for preservation in the bottle too. Based on the product claim that each one will preserve 15 bottles, I could probably get by with the 4 pack for a mere $10. 

Unless I'm missing something, option 3 sounds best, although that would seem to contradict the opinion of people commenting here. Can someone explain if I've got a flaw in my logic? Couldn't I ferment, rack to secondary, and then purge the secondary headspace with Argon for $10?


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## ibglowin (Jan 19, 2011)

What are you talking about here? This is something not previously discussed or did I completely miss this one? Sounds like cartridges for a paint ball gun?



VitaminJay said:


> 3. Also expensive. Or is it? It looks like I can buy a 10 pack of 16g Argon cartridges for around $30, which is far less than buying 2 new carboys. Plus, I can use the Argon for preservation in the bottle too. Based on the product claim that each one will preserve 15 bottles, I could probably get by with the 4 pack for a mere $10.
> 
> Unless I'm missing something, option 3 sounds best, although that would seem to contradict the opinion of people commenting here. Can someone explain if I've got a flaw in my logic? Couldn't I ferment, rack to secondary, and then purge the secondary headspace with Argon for $10?


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## BobF (Jan 19, 2011)

VitaminJay said:


> OK. So it sounds like I have three options:
> 
> 1. Smaller container.
> 2. Marbles
> ...


 
The part you're leaving out of the Cost/Benefit is that the smaller containers can be used multiple times, where gas is a consumable.

This is where you have to decide how many times you'll likely be faced with this problem.

In my own experience, you can never have too many carboys of different sizes - a topped up carboy with proper sulfite levels is the highest quality option of all.


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## Runningwolf (Jan 19, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> What are you talking about here? This is something not previously discussed or did I completely miss this one? Sounds like cartridges for a paint ball gun?



I thought the cans of argon private reserve were like ten dollars each!


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## Flame145 (Mar 18, 2011)

VitaminJay said:


> OK. So it sounds like I have three options:
> 
> 1. Smaller container.
> 2. Marbles
> ...



10 liter demijohn, 2 1/2 gallons. I pretty sure are only about $20.00 dollars.


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## bdcl1977 (Mar 18, 2011)

Is this a one-time experiment or are you going to continue to make wine? Any investment into additional carboys is not a bad investment at all, it gives you more capability to bulk age, but then again it creates the problem of storage for all the wine you have bottled and are aging. My wife and I have resolved our storage problem…we age a few and drink a little more than a few, so now I have to buy another carboy to start bulk aging another batch, then bottle, and the cycle begins again, like BobF said “In my own experience, you can never have too many carboys of different sizes”
Jim


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## ibglowin (Mar 18, 2011)

If you do go the Argon Cartridge route I would not try and leave one of those cartridges on the dispenser half full. I can guarantee you if you do it will have all have slowly leaked out by the next time you go to use it. Just go ahead and empty it all into the carboy.......


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