# Juice Bucket Chianti



## rustbucket (Aug 26, 2015)

I have learned so much in the past year from reading Daniel Pambianchi's book "Techniques in Home Winemaking"; and I have learn a great deal more from reading the posts in the Wine Making Talk forum. However, I've also been humbled by what I've read as it makes me realize just how inexperienced I am. This realization causes me to be hesitant about venturing away from the comfort of a kit wine where everything is prepped and controlled by the kit manufacturer in order to assure a successful outcome.

In October, I will be getting a juice bucket from the Papagni Fruit Company in Madera, California. It's not a kit but the juice variety is labeled as Chianti. I've emailed the company to find out the specific blend used but have not heard back from them. I'm assuming the grape juice blend to be principally Sangiovese with about 30% Merlot. I seek the forum's guidance on the vinification process I intend to follow.

Here is the method what I plan on following to make this juice into a decent drinking Chianti:


Let the 6 gallon juice bucket reach room temperature; then take specific gravity and acid readings. Adjust if necessary, however, I don't expect any chemical additions to be necessary.
The juice bucket comes with Lalvin V116 yeast supplied by the Tampa, Florida distributor but I'm going to substitute Lalvin BM4X4. According to MoreBeer, Lalvin BM45 is supposed to give a better mouth feel and stabilize the color of the wine. BM45 is no longer available but Lalvin BM4X4 is a direct substitution for BM45 according to another vendor.
After primary fermentation, I will rack the wine into a carboy and add 2 French Oak Spirals. I never oaked a wine outside of kit instructions before.
Fourty five days later, I will rack again to a clean carboy and rack twice more at subsequent 60 day intervals.
Finally at about the six month point, I will filter the wine into my bottling bucket and bottle it.
Now the wine will be allowed to bottle age for about three months at which point I will test to make sure that it has recovered from bottle shock. If drinkable at this stage, that will be great. If not, the next bottle to be opened will be in another 2 months, etc., until drinkable.

As you'll note, I will not be using any fining chemicals in this process. What I'm unsure of is how long I should keep the oak spirals in contact with the wine. Do the oak spirals need to be transferred to the next carboy after the first racking? What is being risked with this oaking process?


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## Rocky (Aug 26, 2015)

Hi R-B, you have a good plan there. As far as the oak spirals are concerned, I have never used them (I use the cubes) but in general how long one oaks depends largely on personal taste. The oak in the wine will dissipate somewhat over time, so keep that in mind.

My only comment would be I did not see anything in your plan about stabilization and maintaining the proper SO2 levels while you are aging and before bottling. Do you have a plan for that?


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## sour_grapes (Aug 26, 2015)

rustbucket said:


> The juice bucket comes with Lalvin V116 yeast supplied by the Tampa, Florida distributor but I'm going to substitute Lalvin BM4X4. According to MoreBeer, Lalvin BM45 is supposed to give a better mouth feel and stabilize the color of the wine. BM45 is no longer available but Lalvin BM4X4 is a direct substitution for BM45 according to another vendor.



That is funny, MoreWinemaking shows BM45 in stock: http://morewinemaking.com/products/bm45-brunello-dry-wine-yeast.html?site_id=5

I agree with Rocky that you seem to have a good handle on things. Because you won't know the nitrogen level (YAN) of the juice, I would make sure you add yeast nutrients.

I routinely transfer my oak (cubes, in my case) from one vessel to another when racking. I just give them a quick rinse. 
What are you risking? You are "risking" over-oaking your wine, but you should give periodic tastes, and you can pull the oak out before you get to Castello di Plywood.


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## rustbucket (Aug 26, 2015)

Rocky,

I didn't think about SO2 levels. From the quick research I just did it looks like I need to add potassium metabisulfite after every 60 day racking and to my bottling bucket prior to bottling.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

Ron


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## ceeaton (Aug 26, 2015)

Ron,

I just did my first juice bucket this spring. The only reason I took a chance doing it was the information I obtained from this site, people here are wonderful.

Your methods described are fine. One thing I would consider are using some sacrificial tannins in the form of either oak chips or Tannin FT Rouge during initial fermentation. I also used Opti-Red (I also had some lugs of fresh grapes added). All of the above should help preserve color and the natural tannins that come in the juice through the fermentation processs. You've been to MoreWines site, there is good information on these products there.

Since it sounds like you are aging this for a good period of time, I wouldn't add your two spirals until after you have allowed the wine to settle a bit and racked off the lees. I would taste the wine every week or so and allow the oak to become a bit stronger than you want it. It will integrate and mellow over the time you age it in the carboy and bottle.

Have you considered doing an MLF fermentation? If so I would initiate it before your wine has gone totally dry (maybe SG 1.000) and before you add any additional Kmeta since the bacteria don't love sulfites.

Keep asking questions, these folks know there stuff and don't get annoyed very easily (otherwise I'd be kicked out a here by now).

Oooh, almost forgot, if you can get a hold of some 375 ml bottles, they are great for sampling the wine as it ages and not burning through a whole 750 ml bottle. Maybe use 5 or 10 of them if you can get them.


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## rustbucket (Aug 27, 2015)

Craig,

Thanks for your encouragement. I saw Opti-Red on the MoreWines site but didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it. My initial conclusion in reading the description was that the product was primarily designed for fruit based wines. The thought at that time was that grapes such as Sangiovese and Merlot are high in tannin and would not benefit from additional tannin. However, I'll look at it again. 

I don't know much about MLF. Does it always take place naturally if you long term age, or is it 'hit and miss'? Somewhere, on one of the wine making supplier's sites, I saw an ingredient, or bag of ingredients, I don't remember which, that was claimed to provide nutrients for MLF. As I'm only starting to step out of the _kit_ box with this juice bucket wine, I would prefer to limit the processing variables that I put into it. If I don't do this, I will never know for sure what worked and what may have led to an terrible result. My goal with this particular batch, and at this stage in my hobbyist winemaker development, is to be successful at making a good tasting consumption wine. 

In reviewing my post prior to sending, I realized that this later statement sounded overly cautious. Failing to succeed with this juice bucket wine wont effect my life in any way. I intend to continue making kit wines as well.

With regard to the patience and helpfulness of some of our most experienced forum members, I cannot say how much their patience and guidance heartens a budding wine maker. My hope is that someday I have the patience and knowledge to do the same for others.

Ron


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## ceeaton (Aug 27, 2015)

Ron,

MLF can spontaneously happen on it's own during aging, that's why lot's of folks add the MLF bacteria so they can have it happen in the carboy while aging and not in the bottle. Elevated SO2 levels can keep the fermentation from happening in the first place. Different strains of the bacteria are able to ferment with different levels of free SO2. This level is usually stated by the manufacturer (I go to their website).

Some people say that not doing the MLF and bottling is like playing Russian Roulette, not sure about that statement since I haven't been making red wine all that long. Others can jump in and comment on this. 

I know depending on the strain the cost can be significant. The VP41 I used on a batch this Spring was a little over $30 (but good for 66 gallons if you figure out how to keep it viable while storing what you don't use). The nutrients for hydrating and fermentation for MLF are also on MoreWines website, as well as others.


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## heatherd (Aug 27, 2015)

Rustbucket,

Congrats on your foray into juice buckets!

I found the MoreWine guide to red wine making a really good (and not overwhelming) guide when I made the first jump from kit to bucket.

You may need to make an acid adjustment when you test the juice, so having tartaric acid on hand would be good.

Your yeast and racking schedule seem good. 

Agree with Craig, I would add oak powder to the primary as a sacrificial tannin.

Spirals are fine during aging. Six months is probably fine. I would take the spirals out (if they are new) at the two week mark. 1/4 teaspoon of kmeta for 6 gallons every three months is ideal.

MLF is a bigger decision, but nothing difficult. If you want to do it, you'll need to add the bacteria and NOT add kmeta. Meaning, MLF is just another fermentation and you wait to add kmeta until it's done; then kmeta is the stabilizer. I did it on my buckets, and the only thing you really need to do is add the ML bacteria. You can do that in parallel to the yeast fermentation, and use the same nutrients. MLF is something you can taste - so you'll be able to taste when your wine goes from tart to smooth. Might take a few weeks to more like six; you don't add any kmeta until it's done, or done enough for your taste. That said, maybe chianti is fine without. Totally up to you.

Heather


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## rustbucket (Aug 27, 2015)

Craig and Heather,

You two have peaked my interest in MLF. Craig, your Russian Roulette comment was a wake up call; and Heather, your description of the difference in taste after MLF, tart versus smooth, showed me the benefit of MLF. Fortunately, I held back my order to Label Peelers for the oak and yeast anticipating that I might get some good recommendations from members of this forum. As a result, I have the ability to add an MLF culture to the order. 

Label Peelers has White Labs Malolactic Bacteria Liquid Yeast - WLP675. I called them about it and they said that this malolactic bacteria yeast is added to the primary fermenter. Unfortunately, I failed to ask them if any specific nutrient is needed to promote MLF with this yeast. As mentioned in a previous post, my initial plan calls for the use of Lalvin BM4X4 yeast because of the favorable properties this particular yeast imparts to a full bodied red wine. Can I, or more importantly, should I use both yeast strains in the primary fermentation bucket, BM4X4 and WLP675, thus deriving the benefits of both cultures?

You both encouraged additional tannin in one form or another. Based on both of your recommendations, I've added oak powder to my order and will use that in the primary. I also decided to switch from oak spirals, which I was looking forward to trying, to oak chips. The chips will be added at the time of the second racking. This change came about after consideration of what I've read about the intensity of the taste imparted by oak spirals. That intensity coupled with the oak enhancement from the oak powder may be a little much. I've used oak chips before in wine kits and found that they impart a subtle oak flavor, which I like. 

Heather, in looking over your list of "This is what I have made", I noticed that you added lugs of grapes to your juice bucket wines. Is adding squeezed grapes to a red wine juice bucket recommended to get the necessary solids for body?

You have both provided me with very good information. Thanks again.

Ron


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## brottman (Aug 27, 2015)

Rustbucket, how do you plan to substitute the Lalvin V116 yeast? If it comes pre-innoculated in the bucket, I'm not sure just adding your own yeast will really do anything. Lalvin V116 is a pretty strong yeast.


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## rustbucket (Aug 27, 2015)

brottman,

The juice bucket does not come pre-inoculated. The V116 yeast is taped to the top of the bucket by the Florida distributor. The bucket will be shipped in a refrigerated truck to a vegetable packing house about 8 miles south of my home. The juice does not get inoculated until I bring it home and physically pitch the yeast.

This is the second juice bucket that I've purchased. I started in this hobby last fall with the purchase of a juice bucket of Sauvignon Blanc. All I did with that bucket of juice was pitch the V116 yeast and hope for the best. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

This year, I know a little more. Now I'm thinking about acid levels, oak tannin, corks, and, as of tonight, MLF.

Ron


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## rustbucket (Aug 28, 2015)

I found answers to the questions I raised regarding the use of White Labs - WLP675. The malolactic yeast is added when the Brix level reaches 5, or 1.02 SG. I'll, therefore, start the my wine using the Lalvin BM4X4.

Here is the source link to the information I'm referencing:
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp675-malolactic-cultures


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## heatherd (Aug 28, 2015)

rustbucket said:


> Craig and Heather,
> 
> You two have peaked my interest in MLF. Craig, your Russian Roulette comment was a wake up call; and Heather, your description of the difference in taste after MLF, tart versus smooth, showed me the benefit of MLF. Fortunately, I held back my order to Label Peelers for the oak and yeast anticipating that I might get some good recommendations from members of this forum. As a result, I have the ability to add an MLF culture to the order.
> 
> ...



Reds usually ferment on the skins, and that adds lots of beneficial things in terms of body and tannins. I typically get 18 pounds of fresh grapes to add to the juice buckets. If you have access, that is a beneficial thing; if not, it can be something you try in the next batch. An option to replace the role of grapes is to add enological (grape) tannins from Scott Labs; you can order these online, and I like this in terms of convenience. Some folks add zante currants, which are raisins. Other folks add elderberries. The goal for all of these is to add some type of grape or fruit skin tannin in the primary for a red wine. None of this is mandatory but it's beneficial.

You are adding oak, so that will fill the role of wood tannins excellently. Oak powder in primary works, as does chips or spirals during aging. The goal is to get slightly more oak flavor than you finally want to drink, because it will fall back a bit during aging.

Congrats on taking the MLF plunge!! For MLF nutrients, I typically add yeast nutrients, but I know there are more specialized ones that you can order. I would suggest stirring during MLF once a day, or whatever you have time for. The White Labs MLB is an easy culture to use given that it's in liquid form. I have had it work well. If you find that MLF doesn't seem to progress, you can also use the powder form of MLB which is VP41.

BM4x4 is a yeast I have used with good success.

I think the interventions you have planned will make a great Chianti, especially after aging.

Good luck,
Heather


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## knockabout (Aug 11, 2016)

So how did your wine come out?


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## FTC Wines (Aug 12, 2016)

I would also like to know how your bucket is doing. I also got a bucket from Pardo Grapes in Tampa, last fall, which supply Papagni products. Also got 3 lugs of grapes, all Cabs Then. This spring I got 3 buckets of Chilen Juice. All still in carboys. We really need to sample last falls & compare. Roy


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## rustbucket (Aug 13, 2016)

I had just finished reading an article in Wine Maker Magazine on Pinot Noir wine making when it was time to pull the trigger on my Chianti juice bucket purchase. Feeling fate weighing on me, I changed my planed Chianti order to a Pinot Noir juice bucket. 

The wine was bottled in May after some bulk aging. It is still young; but I opened a bottle a few days ago to try it and found it to be dry and extremely fruity. Hopefully that fruitiness mellows over the next few months. If it does, it will be a nice casual drinking wine. 

When I got the juice, it was already fermenting from natural yeast. There was a lot of foam on the surface from the natural yeast. I added Lalvin 4X4 yeast after the juice reached room temperature. Within 24 hours, the Lalvin 4X4 yeast had taken over the ferment and the foam dissipated.

Checking the acid levels, I found that tartaric acid was 0.25. I added 12 tsp of acid blend and brought it up to 62.5% tartaric acid and 4ppt sulfuric acid. Based on the tasting result of my first bottle, I think that I could have added more acid to the must.

ABV was calculated to be 11.7% based on the differences in the starting and final SG numbers. In actuality, it may be a little higher than that since fermentation started with the juice bucket's natural yeast before I took the initial SG reading. 

My two juice bucket forays from Pardo, a Sauvignon Blanc and the later Pinot Noir, have been positive. I got good drinking wines from each. A few days ago Pardo sent me an email with this year's selections. Comparing this year's prices with last year's, I noticed that they are about $5 to $8 less. It is nice to deal with a vendor like Pardo who passes his cost savings on to his customers. 

This season, I'm looking mightily at the Burgundy blend. Roy and Knockabout, let me wish you the best experiences with your juice bucket purchases.


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## ceeaton (Aug 13, 2016)

Ron, after reading through this thread it is nice to see that your hesitation about straying from kit wines has been alleviated. Always good to do something new and get a nice drinkable wine in return. Thanks for sharing your experience with the rest of us!

Good luck on your ventures this fall.


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## Floandgary (Aug 13, 2016)

The provenance of bucket juices has long been subject to some scrutiny. Purists who grow and process their own grapes may have "tootin'" rights, but for the amateur who wants to get "somewhat" involved, the bucket offers an adequate and reasonable path to a drinkable if not enjoyable end!! Individual tastes dictate which way to go. I've been satisfied with all of the buckets I've done including quite a few repeats. A toast in advance


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## FTC Wines (Aug 13, 2016)

Rustbucket, glad to hear your Pinot Nior worked out well. I may have to get a bucket from Pardo. My future daughter in law's fav wine is P N. I have a 6 gal kit bulk aging for a future wedding, may have to add a bucket. No sudden wedding plans, so I probably still have time. Thanks for the response, Roy


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## FTC Wines (Aug 14, 2016)

Update on bucket wine tasting. This thread got us thinking, we haven't tried our Cabs in a while. So, #1) the Pardo juice bucket, Oct 2015, no additions, it was a little weak, light in color and body. 2) Our "House Cab" which is a Home Winery concentrate, 5 pints to 5 gals, (not 4 pints, per directions ) and a lb of dark raisins. It's a little darker color, a little more body, honestly we just like it better. But we drink a LOT of it. 3) Pardo grapes 3 lugs, i.e. 108 lbs to 7 ish gallons of Cab Wine. Dark color, more body, interesting taste, not you typical Cab taste but good, really smooth. We ranked the 3 Cabs in the reverse order I listed them. I.e. #3 was our Fav! So this year I'll still get 3 juice buckets but I'll add 12 lbs of fresh grapes to each bucket & more tannins & ????. We will get at least 4 lugs. So we can make another 7 gals from all grapes. Roy


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## rustbucket (Aug 15, 2016)

Roy, I like your idea about adding fresh grapes to the bucket. Do you press the grapes or squish them in a muslin bag before adding them to the must?


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## FTC Wines (Aug 15, 2016)

Ron, Heather see her post above also adds fresh grapes to her buckets. I smash them by hand & just throw into the bucket. Most times I have 4 buckets fermenting from the 3 - 6 gal pails & the lug i.e. 36 lbs of grapes, just eye ball egual parts. Then when I rack I blend the 4 buckets together. Then we Throw all the leftover grapes in a bag & I press Them in my press. Usually we do this the same day as pressing the 3 lugs of fresh grapes. This way there is only one press clean up. Roy


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