# Improving mouthfeel of cider



## BernardSmith (Jan 30, 2014)

I have been experimenting with hard cider over the last few months and am getting closer to a cider I like but I still have a problem with mouthfeel. The cider feels too thin. It tastes fine but feels as if there is insufficient body. I don't filter the cider and I really don't want to add glycerine or some other "additive" to give me the illusion that the drink is "thicker" than it really is. Is there something I can do that will give me the more substantial mouthfeel I am looking for? If I bottled the cider sooner with fewer rackings, would that increase the mouthfeel? Should I add lactic sugar (non fermentable) to the must? Should I freeze the apple juice and ferment only the juice that thaws sooner thus perhaps concentrating the apple by removing more of the water? 

I remember cider from Britain and that seemed to be closer to a beer in terms of its mouthfeel. Any suggestions?


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 30, 2014)

How many rackings do you do? We haven't used any additives for mouthfeel in the past and our cider turns out like what you describe for a beer type. Do you have carbonation in yours? Or is it flat tasting? I'm sure we only rack once maybe twice at the most and we put some sugar in each bottle to ensure a bit of carbonation when opening... I might consider an oak that imparts some tannin and some aroma such as vanilla. I just bought some Hungarian oak cubes that I'm excited to try. Never tried it in cider yet.


----------



## BernardSmith (Jan 30, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> How many rackings do you do? We haven't used any additives for mouthfeel in the past and our cider turns out like what you describe for a beer type. Do you have carbonation in yours? Or is it flat tasting? I'm sure we only rack once maybe twice at the most and we put some sugar in each bottle to ensure a bit of carbonation when opening... I might consider an oak that imparts some tannin and some aroma such as vanilla. I just bought some Hungarian oak cubes that I'm excited to try. Never tried it in cider yet.



Hi Carolyn, and thanks for your post. As I say I am experimenting and so
I tend to rack about 3 times (from primary to secondary, from secondary to clean carboy after a week if I dry hop) from clean to another clean for a few days before I bottle. 
If sparkling, the problem of mouthfeel is mitigated by the effervescence. But I like my cider flat and that emphasizes the mouthfeel. As it happens I often add oak chips and will be experimenting with blocks and often add tannin (but have not tried vanilla - yet) and malic or tartaric or acid blend. I have tried different kinds of sugar but it is as if the juice is in and of itself very "thin" once all the particles drop out. (I generally bottle after about 3 months from the day I pitched the yeast - ). Perhaps I am just expecting too much from a drink that is about 6.5%ABV ... but I don't think so.


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 30, 2014)

Ya the racking seems about right and we also do one final racking before bottling. Perhaps that is what your problem is? The expectation out of something that is typically low in alcohol. I'm thinking especially if you prefer it flat that maybe you should try experimenting with doing an apple wine instead and bumping up your abv to 11-12%? Then letting it age on oak.... That's what I'm doing right now with this batch I have. I bumped the OG up to 1.090 and now it's sitting quietly in the secondary and I'm contemplating oaking it after this racking.


----------



## the_rayway (Jan 30, 2014)

I would recommend lactose for sugar, and oak dust in the primary. See what happens!


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 30, 2014)

Yup I gonna try the oak dust in the primary on my next batch for sure. I have some in with my tropical daze and that will be my first time oaking in the primary, can't wait to see what it ends up like!


----------



## WVMountaineerJack (Jan 30, 2014)

You are missing the bitter contribution from bittersweets and bittersharps? We put some crabs in our ciders and its almost thick  You guys might want to get the Craft Cider Making by Andrew Lea, it pretty much answers most of the questions you have been asking. WVMJ


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 30, 2014)

Hmmm maybe that's why we don't detect this problem! We have always mixed out apples of 4-5 different kinds with two different kinds of crabapples here. This batch we have going now is straight crabapple but two different kinds... Thanks for the suggestion on the book is it?


----------



## BernardSmith (Jan 30, 2014)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> You are missing the bitter contribution from bittersweets and bittersharps? We put some crabs in our ciders and its almost thick  You guys might want to get the Craft Cider Making by Andrew Lea, it pretty much answers most of the questions you have been asking. WVMJ



I don't make enough cider to buy a press and the local orchards around here are happy to fill a 5 or 6 gallon carboy with apple juice but they won't add crab apples or specific varieties for me. I am hoping to develop a relationship with a new cidery that is opening in the area and that might help solve the problem of the bittersweet and sharps. 

One thing I have been trying although not in a consistent way is to vary the kinds of yeasts. I think I have (more or less) the juice I want to use , the level of alcohol I want to obtain, the acidity I am looking for, the tannin level I like and the flavors I like from the hops... so perhaps different yeasts pitched into similar batches of must will result in different mouthfeel (although the bottle I opened this evening had , IMO, a fuller mouth feel than the one I opened last night.


----------



## BernardSmith (Jan 30, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> Ya the racking seems about right and we also do one final racking before bottling. Perhaps that is what your problem is? The expectation out of something that is typically low in alcohol. I'm thinking especially if you prefer it flat that maybe you should try experimenting with doing an apple wine instead and bumping up your abv to 11-12%? Then letting it age on oak.... That's what I'm doing right now with this batch I have. I bumped the OG up to 1.090 and now it's sitting quietly in the secondary and I'm contemplating oaking it after this racking.



Good point. But the apple wine I make (around 11-12% ABV and aged at least a year is not the problem. That tastes like apple wine and I enjoy the mouthfeel of that wine. The issue is when you plan to drink the cider not by the 4-6 oz glass but by the pint. You are not drinking it as part of a meal but enjoying a pint in the same way that people drink beer. But I wonder... I wonder if part of the issue is that I am not letting the cider age.


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 30, 2014)

I was going to touch on that too... I have noticed that aging as with other wines and beers even, really makes a difference to everything including fruity flavors and aromas that aren't there when it's young...


----------



## BernardSmith (Jan 31, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> I was going to touch on that too... I have noticed that aging as with other wines and beers even, really makes a difference to everything including fruity flavors and aromas that aren't there when it's young...



The flavor is good. it's the mouthfeel. You can drink some cider and it flows like water. Other cider slides down your throat. There is a viscosity to it that makes it linger on the surface of your tongue and in your mouth. It's this viscosity that I am trying to increase. The gravity is just above 1.000 but I am not looking to make it more sweet or more full of flavor. I am looking for more "body". It should feel more like a heavy beer (like Old Peculier) than a light lager.


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 31, 2014)

You probably aren't using the right apples then? Do you know what kind you are getting? Are you getting fresh pressed and uncleared juice? Apparently cider should have something like 5 different apple varieties to make a really good cider. I did find info online about the different types of apples being in different categories like bittersweets, etc. They all have different characteristics of tannins and acidity. I use maybe 6 or 7 different types of apples in mine. This batch tight now is crabapple but two different types. Have you tried using brown sugar over white? I know in my husbands beer it seems to make it taste thicker.

Here's a link that just touches on the subject on the different apple types. I wonder if that book lists which apples are in which category but again I'm sure the info is available online. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider_apple


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 31, 2014)

Maybe adding honey to backsweeten could help? I haven't tried it though.

Oh yes I just forgot, my hubby also uses hi malt glucose in some of his beers and he says it adds body and smoothness.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jan 31, 2014)

Carolyn,
I was going to suggest using brown sugar and a little honey as well. I used brown sugar on this last batch of cider and it has decent body.


----------



## BernardSmith (Jan 31, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> Carolyn,
> I was going to suggest using brown sugar and a little honey as well. I used brown sugar on this last batch of cider and it has decent body.



I started a 6 gallon batch using brown sugar but the ABV will be closer to 11.5 % rather than the 6.5 I typically want to aim for. I was going to dub this batch wine and age it for at least a year


----------



## ckvchestnut (Jan 31, 2014)

Sounds good! Hopefully the brown sugar will help a bit, I know that it can make a thicker syrupy texture over white sugar or at least in taste perception... so maybe it'll help!


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jan 31, 2014)

I used the brown sugar to back sweeten, added 2 cans of pure apple concentrate, it tastes amazing!


----------



## WVMountaineerJack (Jan 31, 2014)

What kind of crabs are you guys using? We are planting Dolgos,Chestnuts, Wickson, Transcendant, whitney plus our wildling tree. WVMJ




ckvchestnut said:


> Hmmm maybe that's why we don't detect this problem! We have always mixed out apples of 4-5 different kinds with two different kinds of crabapples here. This batch we have going now is straight crabapple but two different kinds... Thanks for the suggestion on the book is it?


----------



## ckvchestnut (Feb 1, 2014)

Do I wish I knew! We have two different kinds of crabs here they were here when we bought the place. On variety has a yellow and red skin with yellow flesh. The apple is shaped like a golden delicious with bumps on the bottom. They are quite sweet. The others look like baby Macintosh apples and are tart and astringent.... I'll take photos next summer sure would love to know what they are!


----------



## ckvchestnut (Feb 1, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> I used the brown sugar to back sweeten, added 2 cans of pure apple concentrate, it tastes amazing!




Sounds great! I'm going to try the brown sugar too and the apple concentrate. I still need to backsweeten a batch I have in the secondary right now. My last batch I backsweetened with cranberry concentrate also turned out amazing. Also used cranberry concentrate as part of the juice, turned into a nice sparkling rosé!


----------



## Pumpkinman (Feb 1, 2014)

Carolyn,
That sounds great! I forgot to mention (I think) I did't use any sorbate as I wanted the cider sparkling, I bottled in beer bottles.


----------



## ckvchestnut (Feb 1, 2014)

Ya I would like to bottle in beer bottles but don't have bottles and caps or a capper. For now we bottle sparkling stuff in 2litre pop bottles. It's ok but not if you only want one drink! But it does stay sparkling for a bit tightly capped in the fridge once opened. Kind of like pop.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Feb 1, 2014)

I think that you should send it all to me so I can bottle it and test it for you...I promise to give you accurate and detailed feedback....he he

All joking aside, I use the red plastic capper for beer, I believe that they are around $16.00, I can cap a case of bottles with it faster than my corker with the cap attachment.
Beer caps are fairly inexpensive as well.


----------



## ckvchestnut (Feb 1, 2014)

ya! i would love to get my hands on some retro stubby bottles!


----------



## byathread (Feb 1, 2014)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> What kind of crabs are you guys using? We are planting Dolgos,Chestnuts, Wickson, Transcendant, whitney plus our wildling tree. WVMJ



I don't know much about crabs, but Chestnut (which I think is only 1/2 crab) is a SUPERB eating apple! Its small, but it has a lovely, explosive aromatic flavor. Not sure it will lend appreciable tannin or acid like other crabs, but should contribute lovely aroma and flavor to your cider blends.


----------



## ckvchestnut (Feb 1, 2014)

Those sound wonderful!


----------



## petey (Feb 3, 2014)

Have you tried DME? That'll give it more of a malt beverage feel I think your looking for


----------



## BernardSmith (Feb 3, 2014)

petey said:


> Have you tried DME? That'll give it more of a malt beverage feel I think your looking for



DME? Is that dry malt extract? How does that work?


----------



## bluedog (Feb 4, 2014)

BernardSmith said:


> DME? Is that dry malt extract? How does that work?



I use this method when making a Graff, which is technically more of a cider-ale hybrid.

I make a gallon of beer wort by steeping half a pound of Crystal malt and 1 oz of torrified wheat in 3 quarts of water at 155 F for 30 minutes, then rinsing the grains with enough ~170 F water to bring the volume to around 1 gallon. To that add 2 lbs of DME (typically 1 lb amber, 1 lb light, but it varies based on what's on hand) and 0.5 oz of mild hops (~6% AA), and boil thirty minutes. Sometimes I'll add spices (cinnamon or clove) during the boil. Cool the wort (~70 degrees), strain into a 6 gallon fermenter and add 4 gallons of apple juice. Pitch a packet of beer yeast (Safale 05 or Nottingham) and ferment on the cool side (~65 F) around 2 weeks. Keg or bottle, and carbonate as appropriate.

Because the DME provides some non-fermentable sugar for the beer yeast strain, it doesn't ferment completely dry and no back-sweetening is required (at least to my palate). That natural residual sugar may contribute to the mouthfeel. This stuff is so easy to make, I almost always have some on tap. It's a house favorite around here.


----------



## Descender (Feb 4, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> ya! i would love to get my hands on some retro stubby bottles!



Coors is using the stubbies right now. I would imagine you can find Lucky Lager too. Also, check the pop aisle. There's often craft sodas that use the oldschool style bottles. 

Rhino farts and rocket fuel!


----------



## ckvchestnut (Feb 4, 2014)

Descender said:


> Coors is using the stubbies right now. I would imagine you can find Lucky Lager too. Also, check the pop aisle. There's often craft sodas that use the oldschool style bottles.
> 
> Rhino farts and rocket fuel!




Haha! Thanks for your tip! Love your signature


----------

