# Headspace in carboy



## teegasus (Jan 28, 2021)

Hi!
Today I degassed and added stabilizers to my first ever batch of wine!

I’m curious if this is too much headspace in the carboy, or if you would recommend topping it of more with a similar wine all the way to the neck? See picture!


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## gsf77 (Jan 28, 2021)

Personally I would fill it up into the bottom of the neck. The only reason I do this is because I’ve always “read” you’re suppose to do it and I always have. For me since it worked the first time I kept doing it. I can’t say if you have too much headspace or not.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 28, 2021)

Yes, That is TOO much headspace. Unless an active ferment is occurring that carboy should be filled to somewhere in the neck of the container. Normally I go for about 3/4 to 1 inch from the bottom of my bung. 

Keep in mind that both the amount of surface area and volume matter in reducing oxidation. With greater surface area more of your wine can oxidize at a much greater rate becausse more of it is exposed to oxygen at one time.

In your carboy you have around 50 times more surface area in your carboy now than if the level was somewhere up into the neck of the container. (Neck surface area at 1.5" Diameter = 1.767 sq In compared to Carboy inside diameter 11" = 95 sq in)
The difference in volume is a bit less at approx 64 cu in vs 9.6 cu in or roughly 6.5 times more volume.
So oxidation can occur much faster in your current condition than in that same carboy if filled as I suggested.

I'm guesstimating the measurements but the concepts don't change. A new wine will be degassing for several days, weeks or even months so their is CO2 being released into that headspace but how long will it degas and how much CO2 will be released can vary widely. So at first for a few weeks oxidation might not be a real issue, but; unless you are measuring the CO2 levels in that headspace, you aren't going to know when it stop completely. 

Many of us rack twice in the first 4-6 weeks - First as fermentation slows and the SG is around 1.010-1.020 and then again after the finer lees have seriously settled out and we want to get the wine off the lees. After that Second racking it would be unwise to assume there is still a lot of CO2 coming out of the wine. You are taking a chance with your entire wine batch.


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## teegasus (Jan 28, 2021)

That’s what I thought. Thank you guys so much for the swift and great answer  I will top it up right away! 
Thanks!


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## VinesnBines (Jan 28, 2021)

It is too much headspace - a veteran winemaker says not more than one inch below the bung. Do use a similar or complementary wine - never water or juice.


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## gsf77 (Jan 28, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> It is too much headspace - a veteran winemaker says not more than one inch below the bung. Do use a similar or complementary wine - never water or juice.


Why not juice? Restarts fermentation?


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## VinesnBines (Jan 28, 2021)

It could restart fermentation. You might want to back-sweeten with juice but you would need to add sorbate and be sure it is good and stable.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 28, 2021)

I am going to offer another opinion, sort of. To me the is that to much headspace depends on how long you are going to leave it like that. If you are going to follow the schedule provided by kit instructions and bottle it in a week or two (maybe even three or four), then no that isn't to much headspace. If however you plan to bulk age it longer than the instructions say to (the path I and most of us suggest you should take), then yes that is to much headspace and you should top it up until the wine is up into the neck or nearly there. 

(Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)


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## VinesnBines (Jan 28, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> (Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)


That few? I would think more like "Ask 10 winemakers and get 25 opinions".


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## Johnd (Jan 28, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I am going to offer another opinion, sort of. To me the is that to much headspace depends on how long you are going to leave it like that. If you are going to follow the schedule provided by kit instructions and bottle it in a week or two (maybe even three or four), then no that isn't to much headspace. If however you plan to bulk age it longer than the instructions say to (the path I and most of us suggest you should take), then yes that is to much headspace and you should top it up until the wine is up into the neck or nearly there.
> 
> (Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)



Craig makes a good point, to which I'll add: unless your wine is totally free of CO2, it'll be giving some off for several weeks or more, which offers a slight measure of protection.


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## Chinook (Jan 28, 2021)

teegasus said:


> Hi!
> Today I degassed and added stabilizers to my first ever batch of wine!
> 
> I’m curious if this is too much headspace in the carboy, or if you would recommend topping it of more with a similar wine all the way to the neck? See picture!


I would top it up with water became it is still pre-stabilization and still is fermenting or fermentable, The low level means to me it could have used more water in the primary., so just add it now.
I wouldn't change the taste of the kit with another wine. A six gallon kit should be a six gallon kit.
If people want a more concentrated flavor or result then I guess they would have to use some kind of nitrogen top up. For myself that is not important.

Call me cautious...
In the picture with the Six gallon carboy, the ullage is just above the orange ring. I always adjust the water level in the primary just enough extra for "overflow" bottles (various sizes) for leftover lees and liquid, so I never have any problem topping up even after a second racking.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 28, 2021)

Chinook said:


> I would top it up with water became it is still pre-stabilization and still is fermenting or fermentable primary., so just add it now.
> I wouldn't change the taste of the kit with another wine. A six gallon kit should be a six gallon kit.



There are a couple of problems IMHO with this line of thinking. First of all, you are assuming that a nominal 6 gal carboy is, in fact, 6 gallons. Mine are about 6.25 gallons. 

Second, there is a legitimate loss of volume due to, for example, racking off lees.

Ergo, I would advocate for topping off with a similar wine.


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## Chinook (Jan 28, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> There are a couple of problems IMHO with this line of thinking. First of all, you are assuming that a nominal 6 gal carboy is, in fact, 6 gallons. Mine are about 6.25 gallons.
> 
> Second, there is a legitimate loss of volume due to, for example, racking off lees.
> 
> Ergo, I would advocate for topping off with a similar wine.


Well each one to their own taste.
..
However, , My carboy is 6 gallons as per the measuring tools I have, The full carboy of water when I pour it into one any of my primaries matches approximately the 6 gallon mark on them. And then I make a definite mark.
..
Also I checked all my carboys measuring litre by litre with a one litre measuring cup.
Considering that I don't really have perfect measuring tools , it is approximate but the plus or minus is not off by 1/4 of a gallon. That is a huge difference, almost a litre. Very non-standard.
..
Which brings a good point of measurement. I wonder what do you and other people use as standards of measurement. I've bought all kinds of measuring cups eg one litre.

Very seldom are any of them standardized. It is very annoying, I can't trust any of them really when I buy them. I measure and measure one against the other and take the best average. I wish I could find something that I know absolutely is one exact litre then I can standardize everything else. *Absolute! Absolute!*
..
Anyway I don't see the problem of making 6.25 gallons of wine from a six gallon kit. It doesn't seem significant. It is possible that I don't know what I'm missing if I have gone over six gallons by maybe 250 ml, 500 ml or whatever , but I've never been disappointed with any of my wines. I prefer this method than the possibilty of ruining my wines with oxygen or using foreign to ups. or If it is considered significant to some people then maybe the best thing is something like a nitrogen top up.


Yes, I am aware that lees cost volume which is why I make sure there is enough water in the primary to result in six gallons + of resulting wine after the primary lees have been discarded. . I keep an overflow bottle for the extra - I make six gallons plus, (usually around 250 ml depending on the varietal) enough for a top up for the second racking.

_I regard a six gallon kit as meant to produce 6 gallons of wine_, not wine + lees.
The instructions that come with kits are guidelines, they don't really cover all the specifics and they don't address some of the obvious problems such as ullage. If someone follows them precisely they are left in the lurch. The manufacturers simplify the instructions because they don't wnat to get in the weeds and/0r take on some kind of legal liability. People have to work out their own solutions.
...
Topping up with another wine (store bought or self made) means to make an accurate ABV prediction you have to know the ABV and volume of the added wine. And then make a calculation.

I do want to know the taste of the wine I'm making. Making a blend doesn't give me a standard to determine future batches. And changing the ABV with another wine also throws out another benchmark for the future.

And also as a wine-maker, I just never will buy wine, I feel then just what's the point? At least buying wine for home purposes. . There are always spectacular wines to try and there is traveling in wine country , going to wineries etc.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 28, 2021)

yup, or run it as a five gallon carboy and then top off with extra water after racking. (Talking with folks after club contest this is one of the tricks some do to win best of class.)

Wine is hedonic, which basically means the customer and especially the repeat customer is correct. From a preservation point being 12% alcohol or being 11% alcohol will not matter. From a shelf life point topping up is important and it is possible that two years out Chinook’s wine that was diluted will have less off flavor/ taste similar to the one that was topped up with a similar wine.


Chinook said:


> If people want a more concentrated flavor or result then I guess they would have to use some kind of nitrogen top up. For myself that is not important. . . .Call me cautious...


edit; at the lab bench I have found that measuring cups are consistent, and my preference is stainless steel and then wipe the top flat. _HOWEVER _if I want accuracy I weigh a formula. For the retail consumer well, it doesn’t matter! You all have to realize there is some variation in what went in the package, (most foods are overpacked just to make sure they are legal)/ how much damage the evaporator produced/ sugar free dry matter of this years crop/ etc


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## heatherd (Jan 29, 2021)

Top up with a similar wine to around 1/2" of the airlock, since you stated that you've stabilized your wine.


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## MHSKIBUM (Jan 29, 2021)

I rack a couple inches below the bung long-term in a 5-gallon carboy and bottle whatever is surplus. Most experienced winemakers top up a 6-gallon carboy with a similar wine but I usually don't have a bottle that I want to part with. I know it's the same thing but I can't bear the idea of using a more mature bottle (closer to drinking) for this.


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## Chinook (Jan 29, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> t Chinook’s wine that was diluted will have less off flavor/ taste similar to the one that was topped up with a similar wine.


I don't believe I am diluting the wine kit nor the taste. I think I am making it to standard, the the standard the kit was designed for which is 30 bottles of finished wine with an ABV above 13 percent as per what is stated on the WinExpert website for example Diablo Rojo. . The kits were meant to reach the natural fermentation state as if one simply fermented the grape. .For that there is probably a range plus or minus perhaps 1.5 litres on the amount of water that can be used.
I am never short on the ullage. I control the batch from the beginning. 
Except for the very first time. That's when i learned my lesson.
...
If less water is used then that is concentrating the flavor. Some people like this idea and pursue this goal but that is tweaking the kit. .


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## Chinook (Jan 29, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> edit; at the lab bench I have found that measuring cups are consistent, and my preference is stainless steel and then wipe the top flat.


Stainless steel measuring cups? Sounds good. All mine are plastic , eg one litre or 560 ml etc - buying from the dollar store or department store , it's all the same stuff and not consistent , not even the name brands and not even to themselves. I just buy a lot and settle on the one for my standard that is most consistent with the others. Maybe I'll try home depot.
When a formula calls for variations of measuring cups (I use Betty Crocker measuring cups) of solids I run a knife across the top to make it level using that as my standard.


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## bstnh1 (Jan 29, 2021)

Chinook said:


> I would top it up with water became it is still pre-stabilization and still is fermenting or fermentable, The low level means to me it could have used more water in the primary., so just add it now.
> I wouldn't change the taste of the kit with another wine. A six gallon kit should be a six gallon kit.
> If people want a more concentrated flavor or result then I guess they would have to use some kind of nitrogen top up. For myself that is not important.
> 
> ...


You lose volume due to the gross lees even if you start off with a full 6 gallons. If you start with more than 6 gallons, you're diluting the finished product. By the way, wine kit instructions refer to the kit making 6 gallons because labeling requirements require them to state the volume when kit is first started. The instructions will also tell you you need 28 - 30 bottle to bottle the finished product. If you start with a full 6 gallons, you'll wind up with about 28 bottles. If the kit has an F-pack, you'll wind up with a bit more. See comments from Winexpert in link below.


http://www.creativeconnoisseur.com/resources/Instruction-change.pdf


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## Johnd (Jan 29, 2021)

Chinook said:


> Well each one to their own taste.
> ..
> However, , My carboy is 6 gallons as per the measuring tools I have, The full carboy of water when I pour it into one any of my primaries matches approximately the 6 gallon mark on them. And then I make a definite mark.
> ..
> ...



Wow, so many volumatic problems......and all the multiple checks, if I checked the volume of my carboys, one by one, one liter ar a time, the corona virus would have passed before I was done. Instead, why not take advantage of the wonders of the metric system? All you really need is a good weight scale to determine volume, right???? 23 liters of water weighs what? Rightttttttt !!! So you could weigh any vessel, add 23 KG of 4°C water to it, and that’ll be your 23L mark.

You’ll soon find, using your newfound volume tool, as @sour_grapes alluded, many quality carboys hold varying amounts of liquid, most are slightly over 6 gallons / 23L when topped up properly. When I was making kits, and I made hundreds of kits, I made 6 gallons of must, period, as the manufacturer directs. It normally resulted in the need to top up down the line, which was always done with wine, and sometimes demanded several bottles. This is a “Best Ptactice” we’ve been sharing here for many years. No one is trying to convince you to change, you may use water if you like.


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## balatonwine (Jan 29, 2021)

teegasus said:


> topping it of more with a similar wine



Another option, as you don't have that much space and to avoid "blending with similar wine", is to go get some glass marbles, sanitize them, then put them in to the container till you get a smaller headspace.


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## balatonwine (Jan 29, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> (Ask 10 winemakers, get 11 opinions)



Are you Hungarian? Because there is an often quoted similar sardonic statement here in Hungary: Put two Hungarians in a room, and you will still have three opinions. (And, yes, it seems to be true.)


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## sour_grapes (Jan 29, 2021)

Chinook said:


> Well each one to their own taste.



Agreed. I don't actually have much disagreement with what you wrote. Watering it down a bit isn't going to _ruin_ anything. Just not what I want to do, personally.



> Very seldom are any of them standardized. It is very annoying, I can't trust any of them really when I buy them. I measure and measure one against the other and take the best average. I wish I could find something that I know absolutely is one exact litre then I can standardize everything else. *Absolute! Absolute!*



I realize @Johnd made this point already, but I will suggest it on a liter basis: find a 1-liter container, and, using a widely available kitchen scale, add 1 kg of water to it. That will be as close to absolute as you require.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 29, 2021)

Johnd said:


> Wow, so many volumatic problems......and all the multiple checks, if I checked the volume of my carboys, one by one, one liter ar a time, the corona virus would have passed before I was done. Instead, why not take advantage of the wonders of the metric system? All you really need is a good weight scale to determine volume, right???? 23 liters of water weighs what? Rightttttttt !!! So you could weigh any vessel, add 23 KG of 4°C water to it, and that’ll be your 23L mark.
> 
> You’ll soon find, using your newfound volume tool, as @sour_grapes alluded, many quality carboys hold varying amounts of liquid, most are slightly over 6 gallons / 23L when topped up properly. When I was making kits, and I made hundreds of kits, I made 6 gallons of must, period, as the manufacturer directs. It normally resulted in the need to top up down the line, which was always done with wine, and sometimes demanded several bottles. This is a “Best Ptactice” we’ve been sharing here for many years. No one is trying to convince you to change, you may use water if you like.



Wow, weighing water to determine the capacity of a carboy. Going to have to add that to the list of "biggest ah ha moments". I do have a one gallon carboy that I added graduation marks to by using a graduated cylinder. It helps a lot with blending or knowing what size vessel to put the remaining wine in after filling a carboy.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 29, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I do have a one gallon carboy that I added graduation marks to by using a graduated cylinder. It helps a lot with blending or knowing what size vessel to put the remaining wine in after filling a carboy.



Never thought of that! I'm usually able to guess but that is a great idea.


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## Old Corker (Jan 29, 2021)

Whoa. My head is spinning...
I will add 1500ml of water to the must when I am tweaking a kit to a 5 gal. batch but I have never added more water to a 6 gal. kit. I top up with similar wine (usually from another batch) because I think it will change the taste and the ABV less than using water. 
The ah ha moment I am getting from this thread has more to do with degassing. I have gotten into the habit of degassing when I rack off the lees and will start bulk aging. Mostly because I have the vacuum pump set up and running and its just easy to do. I'm now thinking I'll just leave it to degas more naturally and use the CO2 for protection for as long as its there. Thoughts?


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## Chinook (Jan 29, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> You lose volume due to the gross lees even if you start off with a full 6 gallons. If you start with more than 6 gallons, you're diluting the finished product. By the way, wine kit instructions refer to the kit making 6 gallons because labeling requirements require them to state the volume when kit is first started.


No, you are not. I disagree, There is nothing diluted. The kit was intended to make 30 bottles and the proof is that 30 bottles make the target ABV. If you make less than 30 bottles you are concentrating the product and tweaking the kit.
I can understand, Its; the human desire to have more more more of whatever.. Like children that only want to eat the icing on the cake. But "more" is not the standard.

The carboys are designed to hold 30 bottles of of a purebred finished wine., not some mongrel blend. If the kits were designed to produced 28 bottles then they would have have designed a whole new line of 21,212 ml carboys.

The instructions to start with Six gallons of water in the primaryare just a guideline, not canon and inadequate simplified instructions,


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## Chinook (Jan 29, 2021)

Johnd said:


> Wow, so many volumatic problems......and all the multiple checks, if I checked the volume of my carboys, one by one, one liter ar a time, the corona virus would have passed before I was done. Instead, why not take advantage of the wonders of the metric system? All you really need is a good weight scale to determine volume, right???? 23 liters of water weighs what? Rightttttttt !!! So you could weigh any vessel, add 23 KG of 4°C water to it, and that’ll be your 23L mark.
> 
> You’ll soon find, using your newfound volume tool, as @sour_grapes alluded, many quality carboys hold varying amounts of liquid, most are slightly over 6 gallons / 23L when topped up properly. When I was making kits, and I made hundreds of kits, I made 6 gallons of must, period, as the manufacturer directs. It normally resulted in the need to top up down the line, which was always done with wine, and sometimes demanded several bottles. This is a “Best Ptactice” we’ve been sharing here for many years. No one is trying to convince you to change, you may use water if you like.


Weighing? No that is even more problematic. Different substances have different weights per volume and the problem of standardization still exists. How wold I trust the weight scale to be accurate?. I'd have to buy multiple weight scales to cross check. I don't need another headache. No I just want accurate volume measurements I do everything by volume.

I need the standard one litre measuring cup for many other things not specifically to measure a six gallon carboy. That was just a one off. I use the litre measuring cup o a daily basis for many other things.
..
No I don't agree it is "best practices" to not use enough water and mongrelize your wine with other top ups. That is just a common misunderstanding of the kit winemaking process.


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## Chinook (Jan 29, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Agreed. I don't actually have much disagreement with what you wrote. Watering it down a bit isn't going to _ruin_ anything. Just not what I want to do, personally.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize @Johnd made this point already, but I will suggest it on a liter basis: find a 1-liter container, and, using a widely available kitchen scale, add 1 kg of water to it. That will be as close to absolute as you require.


I don't agree I've watered anything down. I make the kits according to the specifications , volume and ABV, and the specifications are to match the natural fermentation of the actual grape fermentation.
_Edit:_
You know, I generally don't disagree with most of what you wrote. Over-concentrating the wine beyond the target intent of the making of the kit isn't going to _ruin_ anything. Just not what I want to do, personally.​
....
250 ml lees of six gallons is .011 of the total volume. And for that people are worried about "watering down" and giving themselves endless headaches with headspace. It's trivial. The actual variance in use of water with the kit is most likely much greater than 250 ml in order to achieve the target specs of the kit, probably more like 750 ml..

.......
Well OK that's a good idea about weight . However, my experience with kitchen scales is that they are not very accurate or standardized. And not well marked for small differences. And the marks on the measuring cups sometimes seems stamped helter skelter.
Mabe you have specific brands you can recommend.
...
Who can you trust these days? Maybe I will shop at MIT.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 29, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> Another option, as you don't have that much space and to avoid "blending with similar wine", is to go get some glass marbles, sanitize them, then put them in to the container till you get a smaller headspace.


Not Hungarian, mostly German and Norwegian, with some Russian and English thrown in somewhere.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 30, 2021)

Topping off with a similar wine is best - There is also a device you can put on the carboy if you have some headspace and a vacuum pump and it will help remove the CO2 








Headspace Eliminator, removes CO2 + harmful headspace in your carboy


Headspace Eliminator, Is a simple and cost effective way to remove CO2 and harmful headspace in your carboy. No more diluting or topping off




www.allinonewinepump.com


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## winemaker81 (Jan 30, 2021)

Most of my carboys hold 5.25 US gallons.

But I don't worry about that -- I marked all my primaries on the outside with permanent markers, adding 1 gallon at a time. Add a gallon, mark the level, add another gallon ...

For kits, I put the juice/concentrate in the fermenter and fill (stirring) until it hits just below 6 gallons, so exactly how much the carboy holds is not very important. Post-fermentation, kits go in a 5 gallon carboy with the excess in smaller bottles, so I have no headspace problem. Other wines I plan for aging in 5 gallon increments, with some left over for topup.

This _mostly _works, but some times things don't _quite _work out. Which is why I have a collection of bottles from 200 ml on up.


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## Johnd (Jan 30, 2021)

Chinook said:


> Weighing? No that is even more problematic. Different substances have different weights per volume and the problem of standardization still exists. How wold I trust the weight scale to be accurate?. I'd have to buy multiple weight scales to cross check. I don't need another headache. No I just want accurate volume measurements I do everything by volume.
> 
> I need the standard one litre measuring cup for many other things not specifically to measure a six gallon carboy. That was just a one off. I use the litre measuring cup o a daily basis for many other things.
> ..
> No I don't agree it is "best practices" to not use enough water and mongrelize your wine with other top ups. That is just a common misunderstanding of the kit winemaking process.



It’s quite easy to obtain an accurate scale if one wants to. 1 liter of water weighs one KG. Weigh the carboy, then add 23 KG to that weight. Fill the carboy with water to the weight you calculated, and that fill level will be 23 L.

As far as topping with like wine not being a best practice, you can disagree if you like, but that won’t change it. No kit instructions I’ve ever seen tell you to add water beyond the 23L level to account for loss, and I’ve made hundreds of kits. You may do whatever you like, it doesn't cause me any grief as I sip a glass of non-watered down wine, but don’t insinuate that I don’t understand the kit making process.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 30, 2021)

Re: Carboy and container volumes. It pays to accurately check the volumes of things. When get to later rackings where you are losing maybe an ounce or two it matters if you are going from a 6 gal. 12 oz carboy to a 6 gal. 2oz carboy. potentially you are going to lose wine
or have to find another container for 8 oz of wine.

It's worth the time to mark a 1 gallon container at the actual 1 gallon level. Then fill each empty carboy to a standard "full" mark. Then use good measuring cup to measure what it what extra it takes to reach your "full" mark. I've got all but one or two of mine labeled with their measured volumes. AND as suggested fine a good collection of glass containers for those extra volumes of wine. 

By the way some of the kombucha 16oz bottles have same thread as my one gallon carboys. If you visit your local recycling center take along a screw cap that fits your 1 gallon carboys and test that on some candidate bottles. You can use a bung/stopper but having a screw cap is so much nicer especially if you need to store something in the fridge for a while.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 30, 2021)

I've always wanted to put a mark on my carboys, just never got around to it and most of my 6, 6.5 and 7s are now full. Have around 10 empty 5s though and seriously considering marking those. Since I don't have a scale accurate enough to weigh 5 gallons worth of water I may (since I have a one gallon accurately marked using graduated cylinders) measure 5 gallons in a carboy mark it then pump the water into the next carboy and so on. I know I may lose a little each time but don't think it will matter much. Just curious what the differences will be.


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## jay2020 (Jan 30, 2021)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Topping off with a similar wine is best - There is also a device you can put on the carboy if you have some headspace and a vacuum pump and it will help remove the CO2
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will this work with 1-gallon carboys if they are only half full?


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## Chinook (Jan 30, 2021)

Johnd said:


> It’s quite easy to obtain an accurate scale if one wants to. 1 liter of water weighs one KG. Weigh the carboy, then add 23 KG to that weight. Fill the carboy with water to the weight you calculated, and that fill level will be 23 L.
> 
> As far as topping with like wine not being a best practice, you can disagree if you like, but that won’t change it. No kit instructions I’ve ever seen tell you to add water beyond the 23L level to account for loss, and I’ve made hundreds of kits. You may do whatever you like, it doesn't cause me any grief as I sip a glass of non-watered down wine, but don’t insinuate that I don’t understand the kit making process.


Well if it is "easy" to get an accurate scale then can you explain where, how and which brand, because all I've seen are not accurate.
Anyway, it's moot. As I already explained that was only one off. I am looking for an accurate one litre measuring cup for use on a daily basis.
...
Well you can have the opinion that it is _"best practice_" to not put enough water in the primary to fulfill the intention of the kit but that doesn't make it so. That won't change it.
Please don't insinuate that I don't know what _"best practices"_ are in winemakeing. It's a matter of individual opinion.
..
The so called instructions that come with the kits are generic and meaningless and often just plain wrong, untrustworthy.. And I also have made hundreds of kits. A person has to apply common sense to them..
The manufacturer says the kits make or can make 30 bottles of finished wine and that won't happen if you short the water in the primary. So I think the introductions were probaly written in China or some other place..
..
You are not sipping "non watered down wine" in your hypothetical example , you are sipping concentrated wine,. If that's what you want that is your prerogative.
I'll bet I could make a kit the way I make it and the one the way you make it and you wouldn't tell the difference. The difference in water addition to account for lees is so minor it is meaningless.
I achieve the correct target volume and the correct target ABV as outlined by the manufacturer's specifications for the kits.


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## Chinook (Jan 30, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> This _mostly _works, but some times things don't _quite _work out. Which is why I have a collection of bottles from 200 ml on up.


I have a collection of overflow bottles from 50 ml up, 100 ml and 250 ml being the most accurate as they are from pharmaceutical sources. Soda pop bottles are very consistent in their measurement for volume. That is one good thing about them You know it's always the same volume whatever it is.

I've measured and cross-checked the volume of everything I use making appropraite markings. . It's all accurate relative to the standard of the measuring tools I am using. even if they are not accurate in the absolute sense.


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## Swedeman (Jan 31, 2021)

Chinook said:


> *The so called instructions that come with the kits are generic and meaningless and often just plain wrong, untrustworthy..* And I also have made hundreds of kits. A person has to apply common sense to them..
> The manufacturer says the kits make or can make 30 bottles of finished wine and that won't happen if you short the water in the primary. *So I think the introductions were probaly written in China or some other place..*


What a nasty comment!


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## Johnd (Jan 31, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> What a nasty comment!


Agreed!! I won’t interact with this individual any longer, I just hit the ignore option and moved on.


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## Chinook (Jan 31, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> What a nasty comment!


?? How in the world is that nasty?
I challenged and still do challenge the quality of the instructions, It is a perfectly logical and rational thing to do. Furthermore it is common knowledge that work is outsourced by corporations to foreign countries and that often accounts for a lack of quality. This kind of thing is more common than sand.
..
And I am certain that accounts for the lack of quality in the printed instructions of most of the kits. They are woefully inadequate as if produced by someone without experience, someone trying to _"imagine the sound"_.
...
Being able to critically challenge ideas , to think critically is a necessary component of intellectual function. And not being able to challenge this fundamental concept is probably the source of the general disagreement here about ullage..
....
I repeat* :* "The so called instructions that come with the kits are generic and meaningless and often just plain wrong, untrustworthy. "
...
That is my opinion based on my observations based on logical function, not emotional function..
By all means , if I say something you don't like feel free not to engage
..
However your accusation or _ad hominem_ that my negative conclusion is meant to be abusive to someone is baseless.
Adn this does not win the argument about the question of ullage.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 31, 2021)

Well yes there is a standard weight kilogram in a vault at the bureau of standards, but for most of us error of 0.0001% does not matter. Reference kilos are made based on this one and liquid liter of water is defined against this standard weight.


Chinook said:


> and the problem of standardization still exists. How wold I trust the weight scale to be accurate?. I'd have to buy multiple weight scales to cross check. ,, I need the standard one litre measuring cup for many other things not specifically to measure a six gallon carboy. That was just a one off. I use the litre measuring cup o a daily basis for many other things.


If I go to the lab bench I have a set of tools to measure against mass and pure water against this mass and the hygrometer is measuring density against pure water with defined salt. You could upgrade to a $2000 scale from the lab catalogue (Mettler is excellent quality which lasts if we give to the plant workers) or a bureau of standards referenced scale from the factory catalogue and have the weighing technician come in every year to calibrate them.
,

digital scales are wonderful, especially the expensive ones. ,,,, life has gotten a lot easier without the balance and counter weights ,,,, for most of us in the drinking world error of 0.01% does not matter ,,,, or 1.01%
and in the factory world decades ago I had a boss point out if the unit of measure going into a cooker is a fifty pound frozen box of strawberry and a thousand pound tote, use that unit, not your idealized lab bench recipe with a third of a box of strawberries, ,,,,, the customer at the grocery store won’t be able to taste the difference.

All in all when it does matter we all measure volume and density against a reference weight, so for me I write tare weight on pails and carboys and for a notebook weigh the must pail ,,,,it’s just easier. ,,,,, and many of us have a scale which is good enough to weigh the wife to the accuracy of the doctors office annual physical so we could weigh full carboys


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## VinesnBines (Jan 31, 2021)

Johnd said:


> Agreed!! I won’t interact with this individual any longer, I just hit the ignore option and moved on.


Best idea; I hit ignore for that one on Friday.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 31, 2021)

Johnd said:


> Agreed!! I won’t interact with this individual any longer, I just hit the ignore option and moved on.



Good for you John, I wanted to respond to his self righteous opinions but decided to stay out of it.


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## richinsd (Jan 31, 2021)

Does anyone just add gas (e.g., argon or CO2) to their carboys?


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## mainshipfred (Jan 31, 2021)

I use argon but only for a short term solution like if racking or filtering and not bottling immediately. Sometimes for not full containers of topping up wine.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 31, 2021)

richinsd said:


> Does anyone just add gas (e.g., argon or CO2) to their carboys?



Yes, a number of people do that. Just beware that you need to be careful when you add the inert gas to the carboy, so as to displace the air carefully. Low flow rates and laminar flow are recommended. (FYI: there is no such thing as a "blanket of a heavier gas.")


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## my wine (Jan 31, 2021)

I use CO2 to flush and fill head space and, as sour grapes said, I'm carefull when adding it.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 31, 2021)

Chinook said:


> And I am certain that accounts for the lack of quality in the printed instructions of most of the kits. They are woefully inadequate as if produced by someone without experience, someone trying to _"imagine the sound"_.


The instructions are obviously written by someone extremely experienced. The instructions are very precise, and if followed exactly, produce a positive result. These instructions have been used by 10s of thousands of newbies to successfully produce wine, newbies who have no experienced wine makers to guide them.

These instructions are not optimal -- _to experienced wine makers_. But the instructions are not designed for us -- they are designed for newbies who have no one to help them, and as I mentioned, 10s of thousands of satisfied customers can attest the instructions are correct. 

Regarding dilution, a 23 liter kit is designed to be diluted to exactly 23 liters. This is the starting volume, not the ending volume. Each successive racking reduces volume, so the Winexpert statement that 28-30 bottles is required is accurate, although "28 bottle" is also accurate, as that is typically the result after several rackings.

Topping with water alters the balance of the the acid and other constituents. The folks on this forum are aghast at topping with water as it dilutes, e.g., waters down the wine. The kit is balanced for an initial volume of 23 liters -- altering that balance alters the outcome. A lot of folks use less initial water volume to increase the flavor and body, but that also increases the acid and throws off the balance. The kits I am familiar with are designed to be diluted to exactly 23 liters.

In the Winexpert instructions I'm reading at this moment, instruction 3.7 reads: _Topping up the carboy during the clearing process is not required. If choosing to top-up, use a similar style of wine. *Water is not recommended.*_

That said, the only wines I truly care about are mine and my son's, as I'll be drinking them. I don't care what anyone else does.


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## Johnd (Jan 31, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Good for you John, I wanted to respond to his self righteous opinions but decided to stay out of it.



I couldn’t care less how he makes his wine, he’s the winemaker and its his prerogative to add water to his wine. I respect that right. The only reason I chose to challenge his process is to prevent our new winemaker members from thinking that this practice of topping up with water is the way to go. There’s just no sense in further diluting a product that already struggles for the body, flavor, and aroma of wine from grapes. Mission accomplished as far as I’m concerned.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 31, 2021)

At times I have used water to top up but only when I had nothing else AND I felt comfortable with not losing flavor or lowering the ABV to much but.... Nowdays try to start a batch with enough volume overage that I know I should plenty of extra wine for topping off. 
Even if you concentrate your initial volume of wine enough to permit using water to top off. There is no way of knowing precisely how much water you are going to be adding. The amount of lees can vary significantly, Even if you do "allow" for adding water - Good luck keeping track of how much you have diluted your wine and lowered the ABV. Sure you can 'calculate it' but I've chosen to avoid that in the future, I've got better thing to do with my time.


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## Aleatoric (Feb 1, 2021)

I've always added more water to the initial fermenter to compensate for lees loss, and result in a very full carboy. Of late I'm using the kits from Canada that require one to add their own sugar, and I add a bit more than recommended. It doesn't take much. 

Of note (and relevant to this conversation) sometimes I overshoot, and I put the excess in a smaller container (those Kirkland whiskey containers fit a bung/airlock nicely and are great!). However, this last kit which I had also added berries to, I did not fully top up the Kirkland container. Also it was the end of the transfer and I got some lees in there.

When I transferred after a month I ruined some other wine as the overflow would not fit so I went to top off another. The stuff in the Kirkland container had gone off .. super super sulphury, and tainted everything it touched, which is currently soaking in PBW.

Between the lees and the headspace I think I had the problem. The main wine is fine.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2021)

@Aleatoric, I had a friend do exactly what you did. He lost a carboy but thankfully we smelled the wine before he topped a 50 gallon barrel. I was happy to learn the lesson vicariously! But quite unhappy for my friend.

This taught me to rack each container into a separate bucket and perform quality control (called "tasting" by amateurs!) on each, before blending.


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## batman72 (Feb 2, 2021)

Gosh, I never have topped off my Carboy before, now I don't usually have extra wine just laying around for that use, so I was thinking if I used water to fill it that could make a huge change to the reading and throw off things for sure, can anyone tell me if they have had any issues with not back filling after finishing wine into bottles? I personally haven't had any issues, but I haven't made that many wines. I can tell you what the Mango wine I am making right now is going to be really low after the first racking since there are sooo much lees at the bottom and it has only been 2 days..


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## Aleatoric (Feb 2, 2021)

@batman72 - Curious ... it sounds to me like you are not bottling all at once. I'm not "pro" but I do have a few years of successes, and I can say that method is part of that. One thing is to have a couple batches of similar wine going, staggered in timing. That way there is almost always something similar to top up with ... in fact this can be planned. But you have to get a rhythm going first, and that takes a bit of time, and barring influence from Murphy. If you are not bottling all at once .. why not? In my little world, I rack the final time (making sure no lees!) to a sanitised carboy, vacuum degas a bit, and then bottle all of it, corking as I go. This minimises the potential oxidation, and certainly no topping up during this procedure!

*@winemaker81 *Oh horrors! I've never lost more than what I described (about 1750ml) so far (lucky). Yes, normally I would taste (as in a particular berry wine I was dabbling with oaking .. I blended the oaked and the nonoaked, (and regretted it, as the oak was awesome)). In the cases as described above, when I use excess from one (or itself) to top up the next racking, yes, I certainly do "taste". More often, in situations with small excess amounts in ancillary fermenters, I'll simply bottle those separately. 

I'm not a pro ... in fact I named my fledgling brewery/meadery/winery "Aleatoric" for that is largely the way I work. : )


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## batman72 (Feb 2, 2021)

Aleatoric said:


> @batman72 - Curious ... it sounds to me like you are not bottling all at once. I'm not "pro" but I do have a few years of successes, and I can say that method is part of that. One thing is to have a couple batches of similar wine going, staggered in timing. That way there is almost always something similar to top up with ... in fact this can be planned. But you have to get a rhythm going first, and that takes a bit of time, and barring influence from Murphy. If you are not bottling all at once .. why not? In my little world, I rack the final time (making sure no lees!) to a sanitised carboy, vacuum degas a bit, and then bottle all of it, corking as I go. This minimises the potential oxidation, and certainly no topping up during this procedure!
> 
> *@winemaker81 *Oh horrors! I've never lost more than what I described (about 1750ml) so far (lucky). Yes, normally I would taste (as in a particular berry wine I was dabbling with oaking .. I blended the oaked and the nonoaked, (and regretted it, as the oak was awesome)). In the cases as described above, when I use excess from one (or itself) to top up the next racking, yes, I certainly do "taste". More often, in situations with small excess amounts in ancillary fermenters, I'll simply bottle those separately.
> 
> I'm not a pro ... in fact I named my fledgling brewery/meadery/winery "Aleatoric" for that is largely the way I work. : )


Actually, I bottle all of the gallon at the same time, I was just simply talking about the backfilling after first and second racking, right now my grape wine and strawberry wine are in the clearing stage and both are sitting about 3 to three inches below the bottom of airlock, I actually starting boiling water right now and I am thinking about topping them both off with it.


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## Aleatoric (Feb 2, 2021)

That's a classic situation. It's a nomenclature thing. Lots of people call a 1 gallon batch something you can make in a 1 gallon jug. (or 3, or 5, or 6 carboy, depending). I prefer to call the batch size the intended result volume, and go to great lengths to try to achieve it. IN so doing I've devised my own step-racking volume method, that all but eliminates having to top up with other substances. Rather, I use a kettle or fermenter sized so that I can actually ferment an amount slightly greater than the batch size. That way, on the first racking, you are topped up. (if you have enough left over, put it in a smaller vessel for second racking, but if not, just drink it)

Then, there is a wonderful trick. Those Rossi jugs? The 1 gal jugs that come with wine in them? Last time I bought wine it was specifically to get the jugs. Those are slightly larger in capacity than the 1 gallon jugs on Amazon. So ... Rack 1 into the Rossi jug. Rack 2 into the Amazon jug (no top up required, seriously!) Rack 3 (for wine) is often the last, and then bottling. This minimises headspace issues. It's harder when doing carboy-sized batches, but I have a lot of various sizes of jugs and whatnot for using planned overflow. It's worse in the 3-gallon carboy sizes, as there is no 2 gallon carboy, and one must size down to jugs. In fact, that's what I end up doing ... but it's a liquid tetris fest.


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## Keiyh (Jun 29, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> Another option, as you don't have that much space and to avoid "blending with similar wine", is to go get some glass marbles, sanitize them, then put them in to the container till you get a smaller headspace.


Have you ever done this? I’m about to. I assume it will work and take up the head space. I have a lot of space as I had 2 skin bags in my Finer Wine kit. Purchased 6 pounds of glass marbles on Amazon.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 29, 2021)

Keiyh said:


> Have you ever done this? I’m about to. I assume it will work and take up the head space. I have a lot of space as I had 2 skin bags in my Finer Wine kit. Purchased 6 pounds of glass marbles on Amazon.



This is just one article so take it for what it's worth as this discussion came up in the past. Since crystal is so expensive I can't imagine cheap glass marbles, especially if clear, would contain lead. I have about 10 lbs worth myself but only used them once and I have no idea if they contain lead or not. I will tell you though I will not stop drinking wine out of my crystal.

"A recent study reported that wine and spirits can leach lead from crystal, and while no one is suggesting that $150 lead crystal goblets or $2,000 decanters be discarded, the Food and Drug Administration is recommending that people rethink the way they use lead crystal containers for food and beverages.

Lead is a chronic hazard that can damage the nervous system, the kidneys and bone marrow. Fetuses and small children are particularly sensitive to lead.

Jerry Burke, the director of the F.D.A.'s Office of Physical Science, made these recommendations:

* Do not use lead crystal every day. Occasional use is all right, but if you have a daily glass of wine, don't drink it from a crystal goblet.

* Don't store foods or beverages for long periods in crystal. This is particularly true for acidic juices, vinegar and alcoholic beverages. Mr. Burke defines a week or two as long. Others say overnight is the maximum."


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## cmason1957 (Jun 29, 2021)

Keiyh said:


> Have you ever done this? I’m about to. I assume it will work and take up the head space. I have a lot of space as I had 2 skin bags in my Finer Wine kit. Purchased 6 pounds of glass marbles on Amazon.



I'm not sure I understand why having 2 skin bags gives a very large amount of headspace. I hope you didn't put the skins in, then fill to 6 gallons. If you did, then you are probably short a great deal of water in your wine. But I would expect then your starting sg would have been higher than normal.


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## montanarick (Jun 30, 2021)

I've looked into this issue at length and would be warry of any glass marbles that were manufactured in China which could contain any number of toxic heavy metals. Morewinemaking.com offers what are purported to be marbles that are safe for use in wine


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## Keiyh (Jun 30, 2021)

I filled as I normally do, normally add a bit less water. Then added the 2 skin bags. I have the normal headspace but for this wine I don’t want to add more commercial wine. Will follow with a picture.


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## Keiyh (Jun 30, 2021)




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## Keiyh (Jun 30, 2021)

Going to use Argon Gas until bottling. Decided not to use marbles. Read too many bad incidents, chipping breaking and even can have lead. Anyone ever use Argon Gas, wine bottle spray. If so how much do you spray and how often??


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## vacuumpumpman (Jul 1, 2021)

Keiyh said:


> Going to use Argon Gas until bottling. Decided not to use marbles. Read too many bad incidents, chipping breaking and even can have lead. Anyone ever use Argon Gas, wine bottle spray. If so how much do you spray and how often??



I will Flood the headspace with a heavier gas to displace most of the Air. I do this putting the fill tube of gas near the liquid height inside the carboy and let it flow (heavier gas should push the lighter gas upward). 
I do a rough calculation using a volume displacement method and then double it - typically no more than 1 minute per gallon (depending on your flow). 
Then add the Headspace Eliminator to create a vacuum inside the vessel - no need to reapply the Heavier Gas unless you break the seal 
I am using a 5 Lb container using a regulator set at 60 Bar or 14 psi


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## Ajmassa (Jul 1, 2021)

Aleatoric said:


> Then, there is a wonderful trick. Those Rossi jugs? The 1 gal jugs that come with wine in them? Last time I bought wine it was specifically to get the jugs. Those are slightly larger in capacity than the 1 gallon jugs on Amazon.


Those Carlo Rossi jugs are slightly larger capacity than other 1gal jugs for a good reason — B/C THEY ARE 4L JUGS! Lol (1.057gal)
I recently saw another odd sized Rossi jug and bought it— a 3L. I’ve even purchased this awful disgusting terrible drink local to south Jersey called Boost- sold in 1/2 gal jugs. (Picture bar soda without the seltzer)

Going outta your to having all these different bottles might sound over the top or anal to some people— but having an assortment of sizes on hand ranging from 187.5mL up to 5L jugs I’ve found to be incredibly useful.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 1, 2021)

I fully agree with @Ajmassa. I've rounded up wedding favors (~120 ml bottles), tossed the "wine", and kept the bottles. Comes in handy!


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## Ajmassa (Jul 1, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I fully agree with @Ajmassa. I've rounded up wedding favors (~120 ml bottles), tossed the "wine", and kept the bottles. Comes in handy!


Wait- You joined WineMakingTalk forum in 2006?!

Was it just an actual room full of people talking shop in those olden times? Lol. I think Pluto was still a planet back then!
Tbh I didn’t realize WMT was that old


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## winemaker81 (Jul 1, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Wait- You joined WineMakingTalk forum in 2006?!


I've been making wine since before people had feet to stomp the grapes. We've evolved a lot since then.  

While I've been a WMT member for 15 years, my time spent on the forum has been very sporadic. Up until about three years ago I did little more than lurk, and often didn't log in more than once or twice a year. I can't recall why I joined (probably searched for wine making "stuff") but the early conversations didn't catch my interest. In 2018 I got a resurge in my interest and made more wine that year than in the previous 5.

Whatever WMT was, it's evolved into the friendliest forum I've experienced. I was on a couple of technical forums this morning. Being on the computer has kept me out of prison -- it's not possible to choke someone through the internet, no matter how hard you try! 

Let's keep up the good work!


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