# Cold Treatment



## NorthernWinos (Nov 11, 2005)

Here are some photos of the Wild Plum and White Wine Grape wine that stayed a cloudy 'Pepto' pink color for months. After getting courage from folks on Wine Fourms it went outside into the cruel world...the cold temps did wonders for it. It is still not clear, but a far sight better than before.











So now what?????


----------



## masta (Nov 11, 2005)

I don't see an airlock on top of the carboy, is that a solid stopper?


Has the wine been stabilized with sulfite and sorbate if sweetened and degassed?


Need some background on what you have done up to this point.


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 11, 2005)

Hello Masta, The wine has been stable [not fermenting] for a few months. It had Sparkloid & Bentonite but remained very cloudy. I have not used Potassium Sorbate yet. Kind of like the flavor, so probably won't sweeten it, tho I haven't tasted it since it cleared like this, wonder if the flavor changed???...will try it today. I have a solid bung on it because it has been out in freezing temps and has had a cardboard box over it, touching the bung. Could have put some EverClear in the airlock, but went this way, didn't think it would matter much as I was planing on pitching the batch. The temps today will reach 61*F [16*C] and by Monday night it will be 18*F [-7*C], so the carboy will be coming indoors soon, at which point I will rack it to a clean carboy and put an airlock back on it, and probably stabilize it. Guess after that just watch for more sediment, might age it in gallon jugs in the root cellar, should those gallons have airlocks???? Thanks for your interest.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 11, 2005)

NW, 





Rack it.






That would be my suggestion right now. With all that sediment on the bottom, that is what I would do.





It looks good, I must say. And so do your flowers inside.


----------



## masta (Nov 11, 2005)

I also would say to follow you plan and rack then stabilize and let it sit and it should clear eventually. Once it is stabilized and degassed there is no need for an airlock and a solid bung will be fine but keep an eye on it.


A quote from Jack Keller's site:


*"Plum wine can be very aggrevating to make, but once made, can well be one of your most satisfying vintages. It tends to lack body, and for that reason it is often made with raisins added. But if you use plenty of plums, the raisins are unnecessary. It is also notoriously slow to clear, but it does clear. The flavor, aroma and bouquet of finished plum wine is really a treat, so please don't be discouraged by my words of caution."*


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 11, 2005)

I did use 2 500ml bottles of WineExpert White Wine Grape concentrate, so that should have helped with the body. I juice all my fruits in a steam juice extractor and then preserve the juice in mason jars...and make wine when there is an empty carboy. I have never had any problem with wines clearing before this one....? Must be just the plum-thing. Thanks for all your comments and encouragement.


----------



## masta (Nov 11, 2005)

Northern Winos said:


> I did use 2 500ml bottles of WineExpert White Wine Grape concentrate, so that should have helped with the body. I juice all my fruits in a steam juice extractor and then preserve the juice in mason jars...and make wine when there is an empty carboy. I have never had any problem with wines clearing before this one....? Must be just the plum-thing. Thanks for all your comments and encouragement.




I would assume you used pectic enzyme in your must as the heat from steam juice extractor would set the pectin from the juice.


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 11, 2005)

Had a dose of Peptic Enzyme at the start of fermentation and another dose between the Sparkloid and the Bentonite, and stirred the heck out of it at all additions. Always am sure of adding Peptic Enzyme as 'they' [people/books] say that steam pasteurization will set peptic haze....hadn't had a problem with other fruits till this one....maybe had been lucky till now. The apple, raspberry, strawberry, rhubarb, blackberry, blueberry, grape, chokecherry, crabapple etc. wines have all cleared within a couple weeks....no pulp in the must, so that must help, start with clear pure juices, always add WineExpert gape concentrates too, except for in the apple wines. Friends make Plum wine and theirs is always cloudy, they said it clears, but I think only when they chill the bottles in the fridge....hence...cold stabilization. I am going to rack it and watch it for awhile....then bottle and dispose of it in a royal way.... by drinking it. It was tasty, at least before we put it outside. Being as the temps will be 18*F by Tuesday I will leave it out there till then, see if it will settle any more.What a wonderful Natural Resource the great outdoors is....when the temperature fluctuates like this....could this be the +positive & the -negative of nature?????


----------



## masta (Nov 11, 2005)

Sounds good to me...when it is cold outside turn down the lights and have nice glass of plum haze to give you a warm and fuzzy inside!






How does the steam juice extractor work?


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 11, 2005)

This is what a steam juicer looks like




The bottom pot holds boiling water, the middle pot is shaped like an angel food pan..[has a cone through the middle]...the top pot is like a basket, ..holes all throughout it and holds the fruit. The steam comes up through the cone and hits the basket of fruit above, the juice from the fruit drips around the outside of the cone....there is a spigot on the outside of the cone/pot that dispenses pure-clear fruit juice. I have had mine for more than 15 years.They are not cheap, but last forever. Soft fruit like blackberries, strawberries, raspberries, blueberries, rhubarb, etc, release their juices quickly. Apples are a bit more tedious, tho crab apples you throw in whole, apples are cut in half or quartered. I got mine through a place called Back to Basics in Sandy Utah, Guerneys Seed catalog sells them with all their gizmo's. I have always been a Gardener and used ours to make our own juices to drink, wine making has only come recently and the juicer seems a natural....more places should sell them to winemakers. This may sound like an Info_Mercial but once yo have one and your friends see it, they will order one too....all my friends have one now. I made grape juice from our hardy grapes for drinking juice, tho this winter I am going to try to make some wine, the grapes I grow are like Concord, but the past few years I have planted hardy wine grapes...hope they produce one day. Thanks for your help n the Cold Stabilization, couldn't have done it without the forums and your interest.


----------



## jojo (Nov 11, 2005)

shes screaming to be racked.


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 12, 2005)

jojo said:


> shes screaming to be racked.


JoJo, The carboy was cloudy like Pepto all the way to the top, it has been outside for 8 days now...everyday it was getting better. It seems to have settled less the past few days now...so, it is probably done, or close to it...sure is alot of crud in the bottom isn't there???? Never seen anything like this. In 2 more days it has to come inside....weather is going to turn foul...then we rack it and taste...thanks for your interest...cheers


----------



## PolishWineP (Nov 12, 2005)

Hope it wasn't sitting in the sun yesterday! It got mighty toasty out there!


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 12, 2005)

No sun on the north side of the house and under a cardboard box..also have little skirts on my carboys, so no fluorescent light or sun can hit them...so it was safe in what was probably our last heat wave for the year...looks like it's going to get pretty cold in a couple days, so that will end the 'cold treatment'...cheers


----------



## Waldo (Nov 18, 2005)

I gotta find me one of them juicers Wino. How do you calculate how much of any particular juice you use to make a wine from? I am thinking ahead to next year when the Muscadine ripen again. It takes about 6lbs of the fruit per gallon of wine but if one used just the extracted juice, how much would it take per gallon of wine?


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 18, 2005)

So do I understand this correctly? Cold stabilization should be done for about a week to ten days? What's the optimal temperature that you should shoot for?





I've put some of my wines outside to try this method.... It's scary to put my babies outside in the cold for so long. I've been checking on them every 1-2 hours to make sure they're okay!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 18, 2005)

George recommends 40-50 degrees F in one of his articles. I read 
somewhere else that commercial wineries get it close to freezing (an 
alternative stabilization method to k-meta and sorbate I think). I assume 
Northern Winos is already stable and has been trying to get ornery 
suspended matter to precipitate out. Here is what George had to say: 
"Stabization and Fining - Once you have stabilized your 
wine, its time to bring the temperature down, it you can. Cooling it helps 
particles floating in the wine to form crystals and precipitate down to the 
bottom of the wine. As you rack the wine, these crystals are left behind 
with the rest of the lees (sediment). 40° to 50° is ideal, but unless you 
have a basement and live in a cold weather climate, this option is not 
available to most of us."</font>

One thing to keep in mind is that if there is still CO2 in solution that you 
are trying to bleed off, it will come out much more slowly at lower 
temperatures as Masta has addressed so well elsewhere.

bill


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 18, 2005)

The wines I've put outside are also stable. They have been this way for probably over a month or so. (One of them is the Mint/Balm wine, the other a Niagara)





Thanks for the quick reply, bill!


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 18, 2005)

Alrighty, here's the update:





I put them on my porch (north side of house):











Left to right: Test-threw everything together-batch, Mint/Balm, Niagara....


These were too "naked" for me, so....




















I covered them up with a flannel sheet.





It sure is cold.



*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 18, 2005)

Gawd Martina - you are colder in Ohio than we are in Maine if your 
thermometer is reading right! At least we are above freezing (just). If you 
are below, you'll need something other than water in your airlocks. 
Vodka?

Keep everyone posted on this grand experiment!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 18, 2005)

The reason I mentioned slow loss of CO2 at cool temperature is because I 
have let 6 gallons of Mezza Luna Red sit for 4 additional weeks past its 
earliest bottling date in a space in the low 40's. I thought I had "whipped 
the snot out of it", to use Tim Vandergrift's phrase. Last night I pulled 
several cups into a sanitized bottle and shook it and was not happy to see 
how much gas is still in the wine - lots of foam and the distinctive pop.

I want to bottle it in a week and so contacted George, who advises me to 
rack off the lees, add 1/4 tsp. k-meta and whip it some more just before 
bottling. I'll certainly do that, and meanwhile I will check samples of my 
other newer carboys with a shake test before cooling them. I obviously 
understirred the Mezza Luna.

Other writers have expressed problems they've had getting a sense that 
all their stirring with their Fizz-X's isn't getting much done. I take many 
additional minutes with stirring over and above what the kit instructions 
recommend. George says stir, and then stir some more. If we choose not 
to put suction to the carboys but just let them sit over time, probably that 
should be done in a warm environment, before cooling. Just my thought...

Bill*Edited by: bilbo-in-maine *


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 18, 2005)

MedPretzel [Martina] You go Girl!! Looks good!!! I had a hard time sleeping the first night my wine was outside...the first few days the temperature was above freezing, I brought it in one night when it got to 25*F...so I could sleep....then the temp peaked to 61*F and of course that didn't last....brought it in for keeps when the temp was to go to 17*F....was outside about 12 days , the first 24 hours was the most remarkable, have since racked the wine and will bottle it soon. I would bring the carboys in if it is to get 25*F or less, just to be safe...especially the gallon jug...less volume to hold the temp, unless you want to make some Apple-Jack type liquor and skim off the crystals. Do you know the alcohol content???....[like the anti-freeze factor???]I would also worry about the airlocks freezing. At first I put a solid bung in the carboy, then put some EverClear in the airlock after Fourm suggestions of Vodka. Give us some photos later...Good Luck!!!


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 18, 2005)

Thanks, I've checked on them this evening, everything okay. So far, so good!!! Geez, I'm now stressing over the "breaking (freezing)point" of a carboy...


It got a bit warmer now, and it's just above freezing. I have them covered, so I hope that it's okay. It's supposed to go down to about 25 this evening (but here, the weatherman is always wrong, it seems). I will keep them outside and hope for the best. 


I make all wines between 13 &amp; 14 % abv, and these are no different.


So, I will keep you posted. I am scared, to say the least!










The "bad" weather is actually "good" for something!!! Yay!





M.


----------



## summersolstice (Nov 19, 2005)

This cold treatment intigues me. After reading the posts, I moved a
3-gallon carboy and 6 one-gallon jugs to the workbench in my garage and
clothed them in old t-shirts to keep out the light. I have an unheated
attached garage that rarely falls below freezing, even here in the cold
Nebraska winters. This time of year it generally remains at about 40F.
I'll try leaving them for a couple of weeks and see what happens.
Thanks for the tip!


----------



## masta (Nov 19, 2005)

MedPretzel said:


> Thanks, I've checked on them this evening, everything okay. So far, so good!!! Geez, I'm now stressing over the "breaking (freezing)point" of a carboy...
> 
> 
> It got a bit warmer now, and it's just above freezing. I have them covered, so I hope that it's okay. It's supposed to go down to about 25 this evening (but here, the weatherman is always wrong, it seems). I will keep them outside and hope for the best.
> ...




The freezing point of wine with a ABV of 13-14% is roughly 22 degrees F. The glass should not break unless it is exposed to a rapid temperature change. The one and only carboy breakage I had was due to this when I was rinsing one with very hot water and the glass was cool from sitting in the unheated part of the basement.






Lesson learned!!!


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 20, 2005)

Here's a pic: Cold-stabilization, day 3. Yesterday, the temps went up to 40+ and down to 30. Today, the same.














It's working on all of them, but the most impressive is the niagara....








Thank you all!


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 20, 2005)

It is amazing what our 'Natural Resource'/cold weather can do to cloudy wine....who thought this Cold Stabilization up anyway?????
How did you make the Niagara wine???? Frozen concentrate??? Could you post your recipe someplace??? I am interested in making some white wine. 
Glad this is working for you.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 20, 2005)

NW,





I got my niagara juice from a local winery. It was about 4.00 per gallon, 6 gallons to start out with, now I've got 5 and a little.





Let me look into my recipes, I am sure there is a niagara concentrate wine I can scrounge up someplace.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 21, 2005)

Martina - What did you end up doing for fluid in the airlocks?


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 21, 2005)

Vodka.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 22, 2005)

Cold stabilization: Day 5:
Temps at about 28*F on the porch.











*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## jobe05 (Nov 22, 2005)

WOW........


Those are clearing very nicely, and fast. Maybe I'll set some of mine out on the back deck tonight.......


If my dogs will leave them alone






*Edited by: jobe05 *


----------



## Waldo (Nov 22, 2005)

Looking good Martina. So what are the temps like at night?


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 22, 2005)

About the low to mid 20's this week.



Good for the wine, but not for the heating bill.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 23, 2005)

Martina, how do you schlep those carboys around without handles???

Can you report on how you feel cold stabilization has worked? I think 
several of us are doing it - you were one of the first to set yours outside. I 
had only had mine in an unheated entryway in the low 40's back several 
weeks ago, but I'll bet temperatures below freezing do more work.

Bill


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 23, 2005)

Bill,





I carry them from underneath. I pick them up by the neck and grab the bottom. Sort of like this (old photo, not that warm outside or in the house for those clothes!):











Once I get a good grip at the bottom, the other hand holding the neck goes at the bottom as well, and I carry them that way. Good workout. Like I said in another post, some days they feel a lot heavier than others.



5 gallons is what I can handle well, it's 6 where I start getting unsure of myself.


I have a carboy strap, but honestly, it takes more work trying to shimmy those things around a (usually) full carboy. I also have a carboy handle, but I'm leery about moving a carboy just with one of those things. 55-65 pounds of weight just on the neck? Nope - not in the cards for me. I personally feel that that would be SCREAMING "Break the neck!" If someone else has a better way, I'm up for it. This is just how I do it.






Now to the cold stabilization: Yes, it _is_ working. I have read that you need to leave the carboys outside for a week to ten days. It's day 6 now, and I will check on them in a little bit. I'm very impatient, so I think it's taking a long time. I thought that there was a big change between day 1 and day 3, but not a big change from day 3 to day 5. The temps on the weekend were hovering at 45 degrees F during the day, so it might have been the warmer temperatures. 


It definitely has helped some, but I'm not totally convinced as the original "pepto-bismol" wine of this post. I'm half-way through this, so it'll be interesting to see at day 10 (or even 12, if I'm patient enough). 


I wonder, since I'm doing this for the first time, if the shock of coming into the warmer house will cause even more particles to fall. 


Just my thoughts, hope it helps!





M.


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 23, 2005)

RE: COLD STABILIZATION
Hello,
I feel it sure worked on my 5 gallons of 'Petpo-Pink' cloudy Wild Plum wine that I set outside. I don't think it would have cleared that fast without the cold treatment. Friends had made wine out of these tart wild plums and they said it never cleared, other forums said it took 2 years. My first photo was after 24 hours, it was dramatic. I had gone out to take a 'before' photo and was 24 hours too late for that shot. Our temps fluctuated a lot, from 26*F-61*F. I think the fluctuations are the good part. After 10 or 12 days I brought it inside for good, the temps were to drop to 17, plus I felt the cold had done all it could. It has since been racked, stabilized and sweetened up a bit, it turned out to be very tasty and presentable. I strongly believe in COLD STABILIZATION, but my wine was exceptionally cloudy. Matrina's looked pretty good on day one, but for sure the Niagara showed some remarkable changes through her photo-journal. I think if your having typical Northern fall temperatures, then make use of our Natural Resources and give it a try. Till next time....Cheers!!!






*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 23, 2005)

RE: CARBOY HANDLES
I agree with Med Pretzel [Martina] about not using the carboy handles to lug full carboys around......We always did...then, I read a WARNING in a supply catalog..... not to use the handles on full carboys....they are meant for hauling empty carboys and to use when washing. We were surprised to see such a warning as there is no mention of that on the package....so there must have been some repercussions....so, guess the choice is up to the individual. Think there should be a separate post on carboy handles, what do you think????


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks for the update, Martina. As usual, you seem to have a photo at 
hand to help illustrate just about anything that gets discussed here!





Thanks too to Northeren Winos for the pictures. The process definitely 
appears to have worked for you. 

Also, the topic of using the handles to move full carboys seems like an 
important one to get more info on, like what do the manufacturers 
recommend.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 23, 2005)

Thanks Bill! I have a husband who takes about 200 photographs everyday. (I'm only slightly exaggerating!)


----------



## jobe05 (Nov 23, 2005)

MedPretzel said:


> I have a husband who takes about 200 photographs everyday. (I'm only slightly exaggerating!)




Martina, I know how your husband feels. I too, have a very beautifull wife and I, just like your husband, always want to capture every momentand make itlast forever.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 23, 2005)

I forgot to mention he takes 200 of the CATS. I'm on maybe 1 or at the most 2. hehehehe


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 23, 2005)

As active as you are in several different forums, I think it is great that you 
have the stable of photos to add visuals to your tutorials - it has been a big 
help on this forum for me at least, so thanks again.





Bill


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 23, 2005)

You are a sweetie, bill. Thanks for the vote of confidence.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 25, 2005)

Day 7:


It sure is cold!











The sad thing is, is that I see actual (I think) ice crystals in my wine. Since I've never done this, it seems scary. The carboys are covered up, so they are a little warmer, I would think. It's supposed to warm up over the next few days, so.....





Here's a pic of the three wines.








On the niagara (on the right) you see these black/grey areas of darker things towards the shoulders of the carboy. That's what I think are ice crystals. There is a lot more sediment on the sides than in the previous pics.





Should I bring the wine inside?


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 25, 2005)

Hello Martina....I think you might want to bring it in at 12*F...so I can sleep tonight.If there is ice crystals, it might be a good idea just to warm it up a tad and put it back out tomorrow or when you are sure of warmer temps. Am surprised it is that cold where you are. You have more guts than I did to leave it outside this long and this cold.You are very fortunate to be able to buy fresh Niagara Juice like you can....the envy of everyone living in less hospitable areas. Your wines sure look nice, and love the recipes you posted on your WebSite....might try some Lilac next spring...going to be hard to explain that one to my hubby....keep us all posted on this great adventure.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 25, 2005)

I brought them back in. It was too risky.


----------



## NorthernWinos (Nov 25, 2005)

Thank You...everyone can sleep tonight. The Vodka in the airlock of that gallon jug looked kind of opaque and expanded...at least compared to the earlier photos. Those carboys are really going to sweat tonight. Glad this worked for you....till later*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## Waldo (Nov 25, 2005)

Looks like it worked pretty good Martina. I think it will be interesting to see what they will do now that they are back in a nice warm cozy enviroment. Are you singing or playing them any Christmas carols yet?


I tries singing "We Wish You A Merry christmas" to mine but they just "burped" real loud so I shut up


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 25, 2005)

Got nervous there for a bit - thanks for taking them in Martina. Mine
are in tonight too, but the temp here is 20F. Yours may have been
approaching the limit!


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 25, 2005)

Well, I put them down in the basement again. I got scared.



And since I am going out of town for a few days, I didn't want them to be irreversibly ruined. _Reversibly_ ruined is another thing.









I racked the mint/balm into a new carboy to warm it up a little faster. Boy, those carboys were cold!!!


The airlocks were actually okay. Nothing was wrong with them. It seems as though I caught them in time. We had record-breaking temps last night, which our idiot weather-people couldn't forecast. It was not expected, to say the least, but it seems the wines made it through the whole ordeal okay. That's the main thing, right?!?!?





Thanks everyone. When I get back, I'll take a looky-look at the carboys, and if the camera is in the right room, I might even take a picture for ya!


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

New update....












I freaked out this morning.

















The crystals were *still* there.











The wine looked horrible. I moved it onto the table, and *nothing* moved. The (sorry) crap that was on the sides of the carboy yesterday were still there.









So, I thought I'd give it a try and rack the darn thing.


When I started to rack, I freaked.














That was STILL there! But it didn't move as the level of the wine in the carboy was lower.











"Aha!" I thought. This must be tartaric crystals that every book talks about!














That was what was left. It was a salty sound when I swooshed the carboy with the left over muck at the end of racking.





And then I looked at what I racked into the new carboy:











Mr. Green Mouse looked happy and approved of me racking today. But he also thought, "hey, you didn't add any,"














So, as you see, I put them in the pill crusher and crushed them.














We added it to the wine, topped it up with some chardonnay (from a kit), and now all we can do is wait.









Moral of the story:* Don't freak out.*


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

Here's what CJJ Berry says about tartaric acid:





"Is that found in the grape (or raisins, sultanas and currants) and is said to improve the vinous character of the wine, but is often unstable, being thrown out of solution in the wine as tartrate crystals. Incidentally, although tartaric is the principal acid in grapes, there is usually a high proportion of malic also.





The acids are not confined to these fruits and are often found alongside one another in varying quantities, a little citric where malic predominates, and vice versa, for instance." (page 42 CJJ Berry's First Steps in Winemaking)





Terry Garey says (p. 182) to "chillproofing" wines:


"...the wine is stored at a temperature just above freezing for a period of about two weeks. This allows part of the tartaric acid to precipitate out, and it helps to smooth high-acid wines. It also aids in stabilizing the wine."


Considering we had 13 degrees F on that day, I think the two weeks was _drastically_ shortened.


----------



## jobe05 (Nov 26, 2005)

Never seen that happen in my limited time making wine, but in my vast reading..... I may have read it, but have never seen it. Does it have any better, or ill effects on the wine? Itcertainly looks likethe cold did it some good.


----------



## Dean (Nov 26, 2005)

WINE DIAMONDS!!!!! Typically seen as a sign of high quality ingredients. If you collect them all, then crush them, you will have yourself some homemade cream of tartar!


My RJS En Primeur kits sometimes shed those crystals too. I haven't seen it in other kits though. Now I cold stabilize those kits, and other homemade wines that I make. Your wines must be quite high alcohol in that they didn't freeze on you. About the lowest temps we can get here are 36F, unless we get some freakish weather. Typically it hovers in the 40s.


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

jobe05 said:


> Never seen that happen in my limited time making wine, but in my vast reading..... I may have read it, but have never seen it. Does it have any better, or ill effects on the wine? Itcertainly looks likethe cold did it some good.




Well, I've never seen it either. Like I said, I totally freaked out this morning. Sort of panic-ed. 




> *Cold stabilizing*
> 
> 
> Cold stabilizing causes tartaric acid to precipitate as potassium bitartrate crystals when the wine is being chilled. Because the procedure works on tartaric acid, it will only work effectively on grape wines. The wine must be fermented out.
> You can cold stabilize the wine by placing it in a cold spot (between -4 and 5 deg C) for a week or two. The wine will get cloudy and crystals will form on the bottom of the carboy. Wait untill the sediment has settled and rack when the wine is still cold. For best effect you can add a small amount of potassium bitartrate first, so that the crystals will form more easily.




http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/acids.html- a source that is not used enough. I love this website.


So, are there ill-effects? I don't think so. I have also read that the crystals do not make the acidity go down. The crystals are the salts of the acid (ugh, I'm not a chemist, so I'm just spitting out what I've been told) and not the acid itself. (huh?!?






) It should not affect the pH of the wine (3.63 at last weeks' reading).


I tasted the crystals (yes, I'm like a kid. I have to put everything in my mouth!), and they just tasted nasty. The niagara juice was bought from a local vineyard (http://www.debonne.com) and so far, so good. I also bought 6 gallons of concord juice there (4 bucks a gallon each wine). 


Oh yes, my wines aren't that high in alcohol - about 13%. Yes, a little stronger than "normal" wines, but I also like to top off with water (this one I didn't, so 13.58% (SG 1.090) is what this one is), so I think I get the SG down to a "normal" level. I also had the wines on the north side, covered from below in a towel, from the sides and on top with a flannel sheet. Still, they were happy to come inside, I think.



Talk about bottle shock!



*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

I think we've all learned something about cold stabilzation with this post. This is what I think we can safely say (correct me if I'm wrong):


<LI>The "cold treatment", in conjunction with fluctuating temperatures, works well on fruit wines that don't clear or to quickly get the "gross lees" out of the way.</LI>
<LI>Cold stabilization in temps that are hovering around freezing works well in grape wines.</LI>
<LI>Cold stabilization works on grape wines in that it may form tartaric crystals (I like the "wine diamonds"), even at temperatures which hover around the 40's.</LI>
<LI>You need to at least wait a week before you bring the wine back in, if temperatures are around freezing.</LI>
<LI>If the temps drop way below freezing, bring the wine inside.</LI>
<LI>Make sure you put in vodka or high-proof alcohol in the airlock so the water/sulfite solution doesn't freeze.</LI>
<LI>Wines that are 13.58 or higher in alcohol can withstand pretty cold temperatures.</LI>
<LI>Don't freak when you see crystals in your wine. Think of them as products of "high-quality" grapes.



</LI>


Have I missed anything?


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 26, 2005)

Thought you were going out of town!



Your adventurous experimentation has been a great help to many of us
probably, at least for those who get steady cold temps. I have only
fruit wines outside, so may not get "diamonds"



Time will tell.



I feel that the cold helped my pumpkin wine to clear up - see my post under Fruit Wines nearby.



Bill


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

bilbo-in-maine said:


> Thought you were going out of town!




Tomorrow. Morning. 6 a.m. I'm leavin' the house. Cats will be home, but they are quite defensive. If you want to steal wine, give them some treats.


Today was a "day without stress," as my husband left this morning!






(don't take this the wrong way, but



)*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 26, 2005)

Martina - just for yucks, did you bother testing the acid level? Maybe
senseless because you may not have had an initial test level to compare
to...



Bill


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

pH 3.63 tonight.




In other words, no change whatsoever.





9. pH doesn't seem to change with cold stabilization.


----------



## masta (Nov 26, 2005)

Northern Winos,Martina,Bill


Excellent jobon this thread with the explanation and photos. It is certainly great info and a learning experience for all winemakers.


I think our forum was just kicked up a notch with this one!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 26, 2005)

High praise masta, thanks! It seemed to arise from nowhere by itself and 
Martina ran with it.

Martina, I meant did you take a TA reading originally, or can you now?


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 26, 2005)

nope. I never take TA readings. pH is all I can do now. I could do those idiotic titrette things, but I'm not good at it, nor do I think the results are reliable. 





This forum is great! I love adding all these pictures of the (sometimes) dumb things I do. I alwayshope maybe my experience will help others. Like with this post - if someone would have posted these crystals before, I wouldn't have freaked out (as much) this morning. I was quite worried, to say the least. I thought I had ruined it completely. I hope now that no one will worry about cold-stabilization and weird occurances in their carboys.









We're all here to learn and share.



(and sometimes brag!)


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Nov 26, 2005)

Martina - Remember this from awhile back? Sounds familiar...


See General Wine Questions/Discussions--What's left in the Carboy?--from 
Polish Wine P, November 2


----------



## Waldo (Nov 27, 2005)

It never gets cold enough for an extended period of time here to try it. May be 22 degreestoday and back up to 62 tomorrow. Old saying in Arkansas, "If you don't like the weather here, just hang around for an hour and it will change".


----------



## MedPretzel (Nov 30, 2005)

bilbo-in-maine said:


> Martina - Remember this from awhile back? Sounds familiar...
> 
> 
> See General Wine Questions/Discussions--What's left in the Carboy?--from
> Polish Wine P, November 2







Yes, I read that post, but mine looked very different, I thought. I didn't think of tartrate until I had racked a little of it off already. When I look at the pictures of that post, I found mine looked really crystally in comparison. And it didn't move at all. 





But, of course, I was too freaked out at that time to really fathom any previous posts!





Thanks for reminding me!


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 2, 2005)

Can I just say, I think it was a good thing that I cold stabilized!


----------



## Waldo (Dec 2, 2005)

Absolutely beautiful Martina


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Dec 2, 2005)

Wow!!

So you can say that it helped in clearing, and the acid level must have 
dropped. 

How does it taste, and what is next for it?


----------



## Big Port (Dec 2, 2005)

Wow! That is absolutly beautiful. I would say that is what we are all striving for? So clear!


----------



## jojo (Dec 4, 2005)

this thread is great. thanks!


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 4, 2005)

There is still some stuff dropping, but it's coming way along. I'm very happy that I "exposed" my wine to the cold. Sometimes the "cold shoulder" isn't so bad!!!









I will rack a few more times and then filter, I think. Maybe by x-mas?!? We'll see. I don't know when it'll be ready. This is a new experiment for me. 





M.


----------



## masta (Dec 4, 2005)

Looking nice Martina....excellent job!


----------



## Waldo (Dec 5, 2005)

MedPretzel said:


> There is still some stuff dropping, but it's coming way along. I'm very happy that I "exposed" my wine to the cold. Sometimes the "cold shoulder" isn't so bad!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dang MArtina..a few more rackings between now and Christmas would be one about every 4-5 days wouldn't it?


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 5, 2005)

Yikes, okay, maybe *ONE* time before Christmas.



Only 20 days left, huh?


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Dec 5, 2005)

Martina - Do you filter all your wines? You've talked about how long it 
takes using the gravity filter you have.

Bill


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 5, 2005)

Well, 


I like to filter, but they have to be pretty clear before doing so with the gravity filter. Many people think gravity filters take too long for their wines, but I have never had the bad effects (too much contact with O2) with it. At least I haven't noticed it in my wines. 


The gravity filter *does* take a while to go through. When the wine is clear (to the eye), and no sediment is at the bottom, I filter. Thismakesa 5 or 6 gallon process havea big reduction infilter time. There is usually remarkable gunk on the filter paper, even though the wine was clear. 


I often say that I don't filterall my wines, but the more I am learning about the winemaking process, andthe more time I spend on my wines, I end up filtering them all (although I don't always plan to). I think it's ashame to have an *almost* perfect wine after spending so many months on it. 





The mini-jet is something I would consider, if I had more wines in the process, but for me right now, the gravity filter does its job very well. I don't have a "filtering evening," so when I'm racking and fiddling with the other wines, the gravity filter is doing its thing. It seems to work for me.









M.


----------



## jobe05 (Dec 6, 2005)

Martina, I too use a gravity filter for the same reason. I don't make that much wine to justify the price of a good minijet, Althought it would be nice, the gravity filter works well for me. Most of what I do are one gallon batches that get filtered only so that I can get that gallon jug empty for the next batch......... But I don't mind the extra time it takes...... Gives me time to have another glass of wine.....


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 6, 2005)

jobe05 said:


> ...... Gives me time to have another glass of wine.....







You and I think alike!


----------



## jojo (Dec 6, 2005)

Martina - You are my inspiration.




Wish me luck!


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 6, 2005)

Very cool! What kind is it?!?





Cover it up if it gets colder, and make sure you've got Vodka in the airlock!


But it looks so clear already! ?? !!





M.*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## jojo (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm throwing something on it now. The forecast looks good. Tonight should be the coldest it gets in the next week. It's pitch white now. 


3 gallons - Lemon. I put some raspberry stolichnaya in the airlock.


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 7, 2005)

How is it this morning?


----------



## jojo (Dec 7, 2005)

I think it's a goner. I shouldn't have chanced it. I had it covered too. 


The temp this morning showed 11 degrees. 


I brought it in and it's an iceberg.









*Edited by: jojo *


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 7, 2005)

Don't worry.... _yet_. 





Good that you brought it in. I'm obviously no expert in this, but let it thaw and see what happens. 


Put it in a warm area and try a bit of it tonight. 





I'm rooting for you.... Don't freak out just yet....


----------



## NorthernWinos (Dec 7, 2005)

Yikes!!!!! Thaw it slowly and put a towel under it, that carboy is going to frost and sweat once it gets into the warmth.....know about thawing cold stuff up here in the North....It will probably be okay....good luck!!!!


----------



## jojo (Dec 7, 2005)

It isn't solid.






I just checked it's just a slushy.


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 7, 2005)

I am relieved!!!









A lemon *WINE* slushie always tastesgood.









This is what i would do. I would use a large-bore (large diameter) racking tube and rack into a room-temperature carboy. It will thaw a little quicker (the glass must be cold). Let the "frozen" carboy warm up on its own (i.e. don't put it in warm water or anything - risk of cracking/breaking). You'll be set for this evening.


Or...





You can just leave it be.















*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## bilbo-in-maine (Dec 7, 2005)

Brave play, jojo!





I wonder if you have now achieved the main goal of cold stabilizing, 
which is to precipitate out excess tartaric acid. Being lemon wine, one 
would think there wouldn't be much, rather mostly citric unless you used 
acid blend at the start. You'd see crystals forming on the sides and 
bottom of the glass. Probably one of the other things you accomplished is 
to kill off remaining active yeast cells. At room temperature now, I'd just 
let it sit and settle, give it the 'ol flashlight test from time to time.

Good luck, and let us know! Thanks.

Bill


----------



## masta (Dec 7, 2005)

jojo said:


> It isn't solid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Quick grab a straw and have at it...the part that isn't frozen is the good stuff!


----------



## jojo (Dec 7, 2005)

just what i was thinkin' masta!


----------



## jojo (Dec 9, 2005)

Well she has thawed completely and looks clear with some sediment on the bottom about a quarter inch of puffy cloud like stuff. The basement isat 45-50 degrees, so im leaving it near the window. I have my handy acid fruit chart for the next time.


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 9, 2005)

Phew!!! What a relief!


----------



## Angell Wine (Dec 9, 2005)

Here's my story on cold Treatment. I place an order with George on Saturday for the Italian Pinot Grigio that was on sale this month. told my wife to look for a package some time Tuesday has I was leaving the for week on Monday. I've got two jobs going on right now, one in Longview, TX and one in Nacodghes, TX. I ask her to put in the house when came in. She call me Tuesday said it came in and it was in the house. Good wife, real Good wife. when i got home late Thursday,I look for the package but did not see it and thought i would look for it tomorrow. I could not find it so i ask her where it was. She brought me a door knob that i order from one of my door suppliers. "no"I said "the package from George where is it". She said "oh that one's out side on the porch"it was 17 degrees that morning. I think is right. I going try it anyway.


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 9, 2005)

Bummer.






If my husband did that to me, *he'd *be getting the cold treatment.









But I have a feeling it will be fine. Cardboard seems to insulate well. Those kits sure withstand a lot of stressors. I am sure it will be fine.



I'm sure it wasn't that much warmer in the truck it came on. (hopefully!)





Keep us posted, please!


----------



## jojo (Dec 12, 2005)

I followed through with Lemon and she's on day 4 of 35-40F. A few more days should do it.


----------



## jojo (Dec 15, 2005)

I'm curious Martina. Before the crystals showed up in your carboy, was there evidence of separation on the bottom of the carboy at all? The reason I ask is that another forum mentions a separation, but not forming crystals on the glass. Maybe I need to reread this.


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 15, 2005)

No, mine did not separate. It was just hard crystals on the side of the carboy. Moving the carboy from side-to-side didn't make them fall off either. They were also left at the the bottom after racking. They did not disappear (at least noticeably) when warm water was put in the carboy to rinse the carboy out.





Does this answer your question?


----------



## jojo (Dec 15, 2005)

Thanks Martina. Yes, it did. Crystals are crystals. That makes sense. 


I'm going to leave mine out another week to see if they form. Something is definitely going on.


----------



## MedPretzel (Dec 15, 2005)

MedPretzel said:


>




You must be around day 7, then, right? Well, the crystals formed about day 6-7 on mine. I think I brought my wine in on day 8... (I think, and sorry, I'm too lazy to check it out for sure) 


This is what mine looked like, after I brought it in. There was no real "layering" of anything. The last picture is just a little wine left over and probably was mixed with the crystals. As you can see, though,they stuck to the sides of the carboy. Some of them just were floating/suspended in the wine, but predominantly on the sides of the carboy. Moving the carboy from side to side didn't get them either.





Hope this helps!





Martina


----------



## jojo (Dec 17, 2005)

well its day 8 and nuttin'. but it sure is cold.


----------



## jojo (Dec 21, 2005)

shes done. no crystals. racked and bottled clear. 


thanks martina!


----------



## peterCooper (Dec 21, 2005)

So do we get to see pictures?


----------

