# Beginning Equipment



## HymnandHerd (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm currently working with the TTB to get my permit. I was wanting to see what size tanks everyone started with and how quickly new equipment was purchased because of increased production.

That being said, if you have any information or insight it's greatly appreciated. 

When you first began your winery, what size tanks and how many did you begin with? How many cases did you produce your first year? If you've upgraded what have you since upgraded to?


----------



## NorCal (Jan 5, 2019)

The MBA in me can’t resist asking what your business plan is; units per month, sales price per unit?


----------



## HymnandHerd (Jan 5, 2019)

NorCal said:


> The MBA in me can’t resist asking what your business plan is; units per month, sales price per unit?


The plan is to be a botique winery that specializes in country fruit wines sourced from the local orchard. But also make wine using French-American hybrids. We have a good relationship with some area growers. I think the best path for us would be sales price per unit. Do you think that would be the wrong approach? My question is the underlying thinking of how small is too small and how big would be too big for a year 1 botique.


----------



## salcoco (Jan 5, 2019)

I started with carboys, went to 50 gallon drums and barrels, next step would have been 1000 liter tanks. carboy start was because our amateur wine making was reaching 1500 bottles a year and I had quite a bit of them.


----------



## HymnandHerd (Jan 5, 2019)

salcoco said:


> I started with carboys, went to 50 gallon drums and barrels, next step would have been 1000 liter tanks. carboy start was because our amateur wine making was reaching 1500 bottles a year and I had quite a bit of them.


After you moved to drums about how many cases a year were you producing?


----------



## salcoco (Jan 5, 2019)

I cannot recall the exact number since i have been out of the business for a while.well each drum would give you about 250 bottle or 20 cases at least 20 drums would give you 400 cases. but we fermented more than once a year so the number could have been higher. we started with plastic and then got a good buy on stainless and went with them. We offered a mix of fruit and grape wines.


----------



## HymnandHerd (Jan 5, 2019)

salcoco said:


> I cannot recall the exact number since i have been out of the business for a while.well each drum would give you about 250 bottle or 20 cases at least 20 drums would give you 400 cases. but we fermented more than once a year so the number could have been higher. we started with plastic and then got a good buy on stainless and went with them. We offered a mix of fruit and grape wines.


Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.


----------



## BenK (Jan 7, 2019)

this is also something im interested in. Im suprised at least one person started with carboys. makes me feel the barrier to entry is lower than i thought


----------



## Flextank (Jan 7, 2019)

The use of plastic tank which allow the oxygen to permeate is a great way to start and in some cases continue throughout your wine making career. The life span is 15 to 20 years saving thousands on wood barrels. You have the ability to use different wood staves. You will be able to control your wood influences to make consistence wine over the years.


----------



## prowlin4reds (Jan 7, 2019)

So it is possible to start with 6.5 gallon fermentation buckets and carboys? I have a friend putting in 750 vines soon. We are in Florida he wants me to make wine for him. I only make country fruit wines for home. This is going to be a major task for me to set up and get started. I',m thinking I'll have a year or 2 to get ready.


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 7, 2019)

we bought out a winery that was closing and initially started with eight 70 gallon flex tanks. Since then, we kept our ear to the ground and bought out 2 other winery's assets and increased our tanks to two 200 liter stainless VC, 12 300 liter stainless VC, two 500 liter stainless VC and just purchased six 600 liter tanks from a winery that was upgrading their tanks. We still have three 60 gallon poly drums that we are using as fermenters. in 2016 (our first full year of production) we sold just over 215 cases, in 2017 we sold just over 600 cases, in 2018 we sold 870 cases. 

We are now beginning to purchase a 30 acre farm to put in a tasting room. I would like to hit 1000 cases this year.


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 7, 2019)

For accumulating equipment, troll this site's classified section, and creigslist is always your friend. Look for winery's that are upgrading or going out of business. Ffemt and I are always up for making a run to get more equipment. We will be looking to upgrade from drums and the tanks we have to larger tanks and totes.


----------



## Flextank (Jan 7, 2019)

Tanks are available as small as 15 gallon and as large as 1320 gallons. Special plastic is what make these tanks work. You can't just get any plastic tank as you risk plastic taste and poor quality wine. 
Heavy weight tanks are available for whites and lighter weight are for reds. Great way to start and maintain your winery operations throughout time.


----------



## KevinL (Jan 7, 2019)

prowlin4reds said:


> So it is possible to start with 6.5 gallon fermentation buckets and carboys? I have a friend putting in 750 vines soon. We are in Florida he wants me to make wine for him. I only make country fruit wines for home. This is going to be a major task for me to set up and get started. I',m thinking I'll have a year or 2 to get ready.



I just opened last fall, using carboys and buckets (3 7 gallon and a 20 gallon). Granted my expected production is incredibly small. I anticipate I'll do 60 cases in 2019 depending on yield.

My winery is about 100 square feet and I'm cash flowing everything. The money is gone now so I'll only be upgrading equipment if I make the money to get it. I imagine I'll be using Carboys for a while. I routinely prowl craigslist. When I'm ready to make some bigger buys I anticipate I'll be calling around to places upgrading/closing.


----------



## BenK (Jan 8, 2019)

Kevin maybe you can shed some light on this. It seems to make a day job out of this you would need about 90-120k in revenue yearly and you would probably 500-650 cases sold per year at roughly a $15 ring per bottle. Is that reasonable for a single person running operations with basic equipment? Im assuming taking advantage of spring and fall grapes could help spread the workload


----------



## KevinL (Jan 8, 2019)

You're right on your numbers as far as gross revenue. Your financial needs and operating costs are going to determine if 90-120k is going to work for you in your area. With my operation, even after it grows, I don't ever expect to gross more than $20,000 (on 150 cases or so). This isn't my day job. With the equipment I have I'll be maxing out production wise with the 60 cases. I expect to buy a few more primary fermenters and carboys if the budget allows for the 2019 harvest. All of my grapes come in in the fall, but I do fruits in the summer and spring.

I couldn't tell you if a single person could handle the workload of winemaking alone. I'm too new to this. Most of my time committed to this is in the vineyard itself. If I were to cut that part of this out, I'm not sure what things would look like. The only part of this that has been more time (and money) consuming than I anticipated has been red tape. The majority of that is out of the way, but some of my time is still used on things not directly related to winemaking (Bookkeeping and compliance.)


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 8, 2019)

we blew past that number this year and still don't have enough to quit my day job, though my wife did "retire" to work the winery events. We will be doing at least 2 farmer's markets this year, so we will make more money than if she worked full time. I keep working as we need benefits.


----------



## BenK (Jan 8, 2019)

hokapsig do you have a vineyard as well?


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 8, 2019)

not yet, but as part of the zoning for a winery, we have to grow grapes. We will put in an acre of grapes and use them as a "You Pick" revenue stream and still get the good grapes from Erie/NY, Cali and Chile. We'd like to put in Blackberry, Elderberry and Blue berry if possible.


----------



## BenK (Jan 8, 2019)

where are you located? Im in green bay, Wi


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 8, 2019)

east of Pittsburgh


----------



## HymnandHerd (Jan 10, 2019)

Hokapsig said:


> we bought out a winery that was closing and initially started with eight 70 gallon flex tanks. Since then, we kept our ear to the ground and bought out 2 other winery's assets and increased our tanks to two 200 liter stainless VC, 12 300 liter stainless VC, two 500 liter stainless VC and just purchased six 600 liter tanks from a winery that was upgrading their tanks. We still have three 60 gallon poly drums that we are using as fermenters. in 2016 (our first full year of production) we sold just over 215 cases, in 2017 we sold just over 600 cases, in 2018 we sold 870 cases.
> 
> We are now beginning to purchase a 30 acre farm to put in a tasting room. I would like to hit 1000 cases this year.


Thanks for replying. How long have you been commercial? I purchased two 300 Liter stainless this past weekend from a guy who accrued them from a winery. I've also been speaking to a few wineries that are closing. They want to try to sell all equipment to one buyer but have offered me first chance at items if they cant sell everything together.


----------



## HymnandHerd (Jan 10, 2019)

HymnandHerd said:


> Thanks for replying. How long have you been commercial? I purchased two 300 Liter stainless this past weekend from a guy who accrued them from a winery. I've also been speaking to a few wineries that are closing. They want to try to sell all equipment to one buyer but have offered me first chance at items if they cant sell everything together.


Sorry I just saw the rest of the thread


----------



## Hokapsig (Jan 10, 2019)

we are on our 4th year. Its a lot to learn. Having a good wine to sell is very important, but just as important is HOW you sell the wine. We learned that an all grapey tasting line up won't sell (all the wines compete with each other). Vary your line up. We now do many different fruit wines and blends. Different is good. Don't be afraid to go over the top. Put yourself out there. Try different presentations, try different wines. Do farmer's markets - they are a great place to test out your wines and don't cost a lot to do.


----------



## Ignoble Grape (Feb 9, 2020)

KevinL said:


> I just opened last fall, using carboys and buckets (3 7 gallon and a 20 gallon). Granted my expected production is incredibly small. I anticipate I'll do 60 cases in 2019 depending on yield.
> 
> My winery is about 100 square feet and I'm cash flowing everything. The money is gone now so I'll only be upgrading equipment if I make the money to get it. I imagine I'll be using Carboys for a while. I routinely prowl craigslist. When I'm ready to make some bigger buys I anticipate I'll be calling around to places upgrading/closing.



Hi, I know this is the winery board, so I assume I know the answer to this, but have to ask: did you go through all of the official licensing for your business, or is this under the table? I get the boot-strapping, and I'm really inspired, I just can't imagine all the red tape for 60 cases...

Background: I'm dreaming up my 5 year plan...


----------



## KevinL (Feb 10, 2020)

Ignoble Grape said:


> Hi, I know this is the winery board, so I assume I know the answer to this, but have to ask: did you go through all of the official licensing for your business, or is this under the table? I get the boot-strapping, and I'm really inspired, I just can't imagine all the red tape for 60 cases...
> 
> Background: I'm dreaming up my 5 year plan...



I got all the licenses. Federal, State and Local. Now it's just maintenance, so renewing licensing and keeping my TTB and ILCC paperwork up to date is my red tape burden. I suppose I had more time than sense (Depending on who you ask, I have little to spare of either). If I had taken the time that I spent getting licensed and picked up a shift or two at McDonald's I would have made way more money per hour. But money wasn't the only reason I took the plunge.

This year My production should be quite a bit higher, and I'm hoping we'll be closer to the 90 case mark this year, and then well over 100 for the next one. In part thanks to my low overhead(and the fact that I am not counting my labor), I was able to turn a profit last year.


----------



## Larsen Cottrell (Feb 11, 2020)

Have all federal & state licenses also. We sold 1200 bottles last year through a restaurant in the same building. Our 'winery' is about 400 sq ft. including storage. We use buckets and carboys, scheduling & workflow is critical. Cannot imagine trying bigger vessels, we would have to move to grow! 90% of our bottles have been recycled, de-labelling is the worst job! we use a weatherproof laser label that lasts about 5 cycles before needing new (about 90 % of the bottles come back from the restaurant). Just splashed out on an 'allinone' vacuum pump for racking and bottling, that should save a bit of time and will pay for itself fairly quickly. Have 10 carboys clearing, 10 buckets fermenting, 600 bottles stored, waiting to be sterilised and filled again, 400 bottles on racks, and am planning the next batches. We will start marketing/sales stuff through social media one day, and one day will get paid, this project just made it into the black. Yes McD's pays better, but its not yours....


----------



## Alibi Wines (Feb 12, 2020)

I don't believe a commercial winery operation is allowed to recycle bottles.


----------



## Larsen Cottrell (Feb 12, 2020)

Alibi Wines said:


> I don't believe a commercial winery operation is allowed to recycle bottles.


from research, I cannot find anywhere that dictates that. There are several companies who take used wine bottles, delabel and clean them, and re-supply them to wineries.
Reusing wine bottles uses 5% of the carbon footprint of a new bottle. They may not be that much cheaper, have not researched that yet, but can see needing more bottles soon. who knows, maybe I'll start my own bottle reuse company, over 70% of used wine bottles go to the landfill, its a real waste.


----------



## jgmillr1 (Feb 13, 2020)

Larsen Cottrell said:


> from research, I cannot find anywhere that dictates that. There are several companies who take used wine bottles, delabel and clean them, and re-supply them to wineries.
> Reusing wine bottles uses 5% of the carbon footprint of a new bottle. They may not be that much cheaper, have not researched that yet, but can see needing more bottles soon. who knows, maybe I'll start my own bottle reuse company, over 70% of used wine bottles go to the landfill, its a real waste.




Glad to hear there are companies out there that are doing this. Main concern is ensuring the used bottles are cleaned and sanitized, which is equipment wineries don't usually stock. The health Dept would definitely be concerned otherwise.

From a winery's perspective on getting cleaned, sanitized bottles from a legit company, I'd still have concerns about matching bottles in the cases and any structural defects. Much better piece of mind just to buy new bottles for me.


----------



## jgmillr1 (Feb 13, 2020)

Larsen Cottrell said:


> We use buckets and carboys



This pretty much sums it up and makes it unsurprising that they are reusing bottles.

LOL, see the thread here on closing the gap between commercial and amateur wine. This place is helping close the gap going the other way!


----------



## Steve Wargo (Feb 13, 2020)

I've helped out at a local vineyard, they don't reuse wine bottles or the boxes. They take the bottles and boxes to the local dump. The owner stated that it's a health safety issue and state ordinance doesn't allow it. Plus they don't want to risk anything going wrong. Their very own #vineyarddog Timber and Frontenac Blanc harvest volunteers made @Wineenthusiast Magazine’s Feb/March 2020 issue when their vineyard was featured in one of their articles! They grow Cold Climate grapes like Marquette, Frontenac Red and White, Petit Pearl, and a couple of other varieties. https://www.facebook.com/youngbloodvineyard/?tn-str=k*F


----------



## Rice_Guy (Feb 14, 2020)

There are a few organic milk producers who use recycled glass, ?? ? rules tend to be uniform from food to food ? ? ? humm ?


Alibi Wines said:


> I don't believe a commercial winery operation is allowed to recycle bottles.


Reasons why the uncle stopped doing milk in glass
1) plastics and paperboard became cheap in the late 50’s
2) cost of labor, the method fit better when they had delivery routes 
3) breakage of glass

In dairy cleaning isn’t an issue, and milk has a larger health risk than wine. In wine bottles I have recycled the top 2 issues are labels and dried gunk when they’re not rinsed.


----------



## sour_grapes (Feb 14, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> There are a few organic milk producers who use recycled glass, ?? ? rules tend to be uniform from food to food ? ? ? humm ?



I buy my milk in glass bottles.


----------



## GreginND (Feb 14, 2020)

I'm a little late to the party. My advice is always to plan for 4 times bigger than you are thinking.

We started with 2x200L and 2x300L steel tanks and produced about 50 cases. The second year we were up to 500 cases with several more 300L tanks, several 600L tanks. By year three, over 1,000 cases produced and now we have 1 2000L tank, 7 1000L tanks, 5 600L tanks, 5 300L tanks, 3 200L tanks, 4 70 gal flex tanks, and several other poly tanks for temporary use ranging from 100 gallons to 210 gallons. We ferment things with pulp in half ton totes generally and I have 7 of those. Careful what you wish for.


----------



## kevinlfifer (Feb 14, 2020)

kevinL

Some may call this sacrilege I use 4 gal PET water carboys. I have about 40 of them. Easier on my back and free. I do about 200 gal per year now.


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 14, 2020)

kevinlfifer said:


> kevinL
> 
> Some may call this sacrilege I use 4 gal PET water carboys. I have about 40 of them. Easier on my back and free. I do about 200 gal per year now.



It's amazing you are able to use only 4 gallon carboys. I have to use all sizes to have them topped up properly.


----------



## Ignoble Grape (Feb 18, 2020)

GreginND said:


> I'm a little late to the party. My advice is always to plan for 4 times bigger than you are thinking.
> 
> We started with 2x200L and 2x300L steel tanks and produced about 50 cases. The second year we were up to 500 cases with several more 300L tanks, several 600L tanks. By year three, over 1,000 cases produced and now we have 1 2000L tank, 7 1000L tanks, 5 600L tanks, 5 300L tanks, 3 200L tanks, 4 70 gal flex tanks, and several other poly tanks for temporary use ranging from 100 gallons to 210 gallons. We ferment things with pulp in half ton totes generally and I have 7 of those. Careful what you wish for.



Logistical Question: I'm considering getting a variable 50 gl., stainless steel fermenter for the coming season because I'm going to be at that capacity. I like my glass carboys, but they're becoming a tripping hazard. I realized, however, that if you need to rack off gross lees, you need to rack INTO something. When you have these large tanks, what do your rack into when you're working with your wine? Carboys? Your primary fermenter? An empty stainless steel tank? (That seems like a waste of tank space if you're only using it for transfer a few days a year). I'm trying to figure this one out. You seem to have lots of experience with the different sizes, so I'm curious.


----------



## Hokapsig (Feb 18, 2020)

We still transfer to 6 gal glass carboys to maintain better control when sweetening. Plus we don't have the room to bottle an entire tank.


----------



## WINEBAYOU (Feb 19, 2020)

Since you're stepping up your volume I highly recommend you get yourself an All-In-One Wine Pump and use it to rack into glass carboys. You'll be degassing as you rack and you'll free up your tank for starting your next batch.


----------



## TPO (Oct 16, 2020)

I am also looking for similar advice. Crossing over from beer brewing to wine/mead making. I started & still using plastic tanks which have served us well for the cost. My question is with either, plastic or stainless, how are you (anyone on the forum) temperature controlling the fermentation? Reds ideally ferment better warmer & whites cooler. I am looking at decently priced round bottom stainless variable level tanks in the $600 range but they are not jacketed. So my concern comes with the temp control during fermentation.

Also....I see more places kegging wine & serving from taps. Any input on that? I'm trying to figure how to go, bottle serving with deep well coolers or additional taps/kegged? Regardless I will have taps due to offering cider.


----------



## Ignoble Grape (Oct 16, 2020)

TPO said:


> I am also looking for similar advice. Crossing over from beer brewing to wine/mead making. I started & still using plastic tanks which have served us well for the cost. My question is with either, plastic or stainless, how are you (anyone on the forum) temperature controlling the fermentation? Reds ideally ferment better warmer & whites cooler. I am looking at decently priced round bottom stainless variable level tanks in the $600 range but they are not jacketed. So my concern comes with the temp control during fermentation.
> 
> Also....I see more places kegging wine & serving from taps. Any input on that? I'm trying to figure how to go, bottle serving with deep well coolers or additional taps/kegged? Regardless I will have taps due to offering cider.


So I don't worry about reds - they need the higher temps to extract color/tannin, but I live in a very moderate climate with summer highs of about 65 - the yeast are never in danger of over cooking. 

I did my first chardonnay this year and I put the carboys in large rubbermaid containers filled with water and put in 2 liter frozen soda bottles filled with water. Kept the fermentation right at about 63F throughout. Had to replace the water bottles 2x a day. This is good for small-scale, but I can't see doing this for larger production.

I think kegging wine is brilliant. I've put that on my skills-to-learn and equipment-to-buy list for 2021.


----------



## TPO (Oct 16, 2020)

Thanks! Yea here in Michigan, themps in summer can reach 90-100 F. But most wine fermenting is done in the fall when grapes are available & temps are more moderate. I would've looking at other fruit based wines though to do. So I guess if I had some sort of controlled environment of 50-70f I should be ok?


----------



## Ignoble Grape (Oct 16, 2020)

TPO said:


> Thanks! Yea here in Michigan, themps in summer can reach 90-100 F. But most wine fermenting is done in the fall when grapes are available & temps are more moderate. I would've looking at other fruit based wines though to do. So I guess if I had some sort of controlled environment of 50-70f I should be ok?


Most likely. You shouldn't have a problem.


----------



## Sailor323 (Oct 17, 2020)

I used to press fairly large quantities of grapes and used plastic for primary fermentation, especially when making reds. I used beer kegs for secondaries. I had a good relationship with a local liquor store and was able to get the kegs for the deposit. The only drawback was they are difficult to clean.


----------



## TPO (Oct 17, 2020)

Sailor323 said:


> I used to press fairly large quantities of grapes and used plastic for primary fermentation, especially when making reds. I used beer kegs for secondaries. I had a good relationship with a local liquor store and was able to get the kegs for the deposit. The only drawback was they are difficult to clean.


So how much are you making? 10-15 gallons?


----------



## Sailor323 (Oct 18, 2020)

I used 15+ gallon and 7.5+ gallon kegs.


----------

