# Brown chardonnay



## nicklausjames (Nov 1, 2014)

I purchased 3 6 gallon buckets of chardonnay. 2 were clear but one bucket was very brown. Is this still good? Can I combine it with the two clear buckets still? Why is it brown v the others?


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## beano (Nov 1, 2014)

nicklausjames said:


> I purchased 3 6 gallon buckets of chardonnay. 2 were clear but one bucket was very brown. Is this still good? Can I combine it with the two clear buckets still? Why is it brown v the others?



I'm not a grape person, mostly fruit wines for me, but I suspect maybe the juice is oxidized or someting of that nature. I would question the seller on this. Someone, I'm sure will chime in and be able to say for sure.

Joe


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## peaches9324 (Nov 1, 2014)

yes oxidation was my first thought. I wouldn't combine them and taint the good two. Is there an expiration date? Might the seal had been broken? How does it smell? Until you get an answer from the pros don't combine them


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## acorn (Nov 1, 2014)

nicklausjames said:


> I purchased 3 6 gallon buckets of chardonnay. 2 were clear but one bucket was very brown. Is this still good? Can I combine it with the two clear buckets still? Why is it brown v the others?



I agree with beano. You should contact the seller with this issue, which is most likely oxidation. If they are cooperative, they should replace your juice.

Also note, if it ever got brown as a result of oxidation in the fermentation or racking you could use activated carbon in combination with bentonite to restore the color, though books say this should be done as the absolutely last resort before considering sending the wine down the sewer.


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## grapeman (Nov 1, 2014)

Check the lot numbers of the pails. See if the two are from one batch and the other is from a different one. It could be that the darker one was produced from grapes that had better sun exposure. A lot of white grapes will get a golden color to light brown when in full sun. Juice from them is always darker than from ones grown in shadier conditions. I would do them in seperate carboys. Often the darker juices and musts will stay darker and sometimes they clear to a lighter color. If they all turn out well, I would blend them when ready to bottle (unless you want to bottle separately).


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## nicklausjames (Nov 1, 2014)

Thx everyone. It is very brown like iced tea. Right now I have not combined them. I'm still not sure as I read online sometimes these juices come brown and turnout fine.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 1, 2014)

Also I took a brix reading it is 15. Does this mean it fermented down to 15? Or I just need to add sugar to bring it to around 22?

I added some sulfite to try to kill the natural yeast that was fermenting.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 1, 2014)

I measure the brix to and it was at 0. Clearly something wrong with this. Hopefully the seller will stand behind their product.


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## Runningwolf (Nov 1, 2014)

I'm a bit confused. First off what kind of Chardonnay is this. Is it local or is it a California Pail. I doubt if there is any lot numbers on a CA. pail of juice. Tell us about where you bought it. Was it cold and refrigerated when you got it? Most places only handle the pails if they can keep them refrigerated but I know of even a few hardware stores sell them hoping customers come in the day they receive them. Did you pick them up they day they arrived or wait? I'm sure the seller can't replace it now since they probably only brought in what was presold, but the may credit you. I bought a Chardonnay also a few years ago and it ended up being a straw color but it tasted ok. I can't remember if it was Chilean or California. It is odd though that one out of three is a shade off. 

My next question is you said you took a brix reading and it was 15° then an hour later it was 0°. I am assuming you meant it was 15° at the time when you brought it home. What was the brix on the other two pails. Some processors add yeast to the pails. Do you know if yours had it added? I never heard of any of these pails being processed under 21°, so I would not add sugar. Because you measured 15°, it makes me believe you picked up a pail a while after they arrived and so that should be expected. You can't hold of yeasties forever.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 1, 2014)

The two that were ok in color were 15 brix. So no sugar? The brown one was 0 brix. The store said they were kept in a cooler. They were ca lodi gold chardonnay. One pail has a date on it of August 28 2014.


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## Runningwolf (Nov 1, 2014)

So they are two months old. They no doubt fermented on there own after all that time. I would not add sugar if it was mine. Keep the three separate as Grapeman said and go foward, finish and age them. You can make the decision at bottling time if you want to blend them all together or not. 

You called this a "ca lodi gold chardonnay". I never heard of a gold Chardonnay. Is this the clue to the color and the other two were not gold? Ask your supplier about it and let us know how you make out.


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## Runningwolf (Nov 1, 2014)

nicklausjames said:


> The two that were ok in color were 15 brix. So no sugar? The brown one was 0 brix. The store said they were kept in a cooler. They were ca lodi gold chardonnay. One pail has a date on it of August 28 2014.



Just one more thing, only one pail had a date on it you said. Is this the one the straw colored one came from. Like Grapeman said, you may have two different batches that came out of different vineyards which could explain the difference in color.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 1, 2014)

No the brown did not have a date


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## sour_grapes (Nov 1, 2014)

Runningwolf said:


> You called this a "ca lodi gold chardonnay". I never heard of a gold Chardonnay. Is this the clue to the color and the other two were not gold? Ask your supplier about it and let us know how you make out.



Dan, the "Gold" does not modify the Chardonnay. Rather, Delta Packing Company calls seemingly ALL of their grapes "Gold," modified by the place name where the grapes originated. (Lodi, in this case.) 

See: http://www.deltapacking.com/commodities/grapesofgold/,
where we read about 
Amador Gold
Napa Gold
Sonoma Gold
Lodi Gold, etc.


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## Runningwolf (Nov 1, 2014)

Thanks Paul, I did not know that and was just reaching.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 14, 2014)

I wanted to post a pic bc I fermented the juice and I'm wondering if it is still good. Will the color clear or is it going to look like pond water forever. It doesn't taste that bad.


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## grapeman (Nov 14, 2014)

Still lots of bubbles so it won't drop sediment yet. When it does it will begin to clear and will probably lighten up a bit. If it tastes good, who cares if it isn't very light. When in the bottle and then the glass, it will look lighter in color and probably be a nice light color.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 14, 2014)

I have 12 gallons that is much less brown is it ok to combine them? I was under the impression something is wrong with it but maybe this is normal? I have not made chardonnay before.


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## ReefKeeper (Nov 14, 2014)

I would talk to the store you got them from. It sounds like the two good buckets are half fermented and the brown bucket has completed fermentation and is oxidized. Never combine wines until they are clarified, stabilized, and evaluated. Even still, I'd recommend bench trials to determine blending percentages for the desired style.

If the store won't work with you, I'd give the brown bucket a chance to settle a bit. I've found that whites always look darker in the tank/carboy than they actually are. You could thief a sample and examine it in a glass to give a more accurate evaluation. If it is brown (oxidation), I'd add some SO2 stat and try PVPP fining and see where that gets you. A tannin made for white wine may help prevent further oxidation but it won't remove what is already there. Do not attempt MLF on the brown bucket bucket.


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## ReefKeeper (Nov 14, 2014)

Perhaps I misread this. Are you asking if you should combine the good buckets and leave the brown one on its own? If so, than maybe... always evaluate before blending. I'd be more prone to leave them in their own carboys and blending after they are finished though.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 15, 2014)

I did contact the store. They refused to take any responsibility. They said this is how it is supposed to be and if I even wanted them to consider a refund I would have to drive the open bucket back 1.5 hrs in my car. I sent them a pic and they reiterated it is supposed to be "golden." Before I complain about them online I want to confirm that there is an issue with the juice bc maybe I am wrong. Like I said I have not worked w chardonnay before. 

Why no mlf on the brown?

To clarify I was asking about combining the brown with the two whites. Originally I planned on doing all 18 gallons together. When isaw the brown I fermented it separately. I am going to run mlf on the white and was planning on doing the brown to. 

I was also hoping if it clarified a little I could combine them all together and go back to my original plan of 18 gallons. I thought the brown may not be recognizable if combined with the other two, particularly if it clarifies at all on its own.


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## ReefKeeper (Nov 15, 2014)

My concern with the brown batch is that it is oxidized. Adding SO2 will help minimize the risk of it becoming more oxidized. However, SO2 will kill MLB so the wine won't go through MLF. There is also a chance that the brown bucket may have acetobacter or other spoilage organism if it was left exposed to oxygen after fermentation. Acetobacter produces volatile acidity (acedic acid) as does MLF. The combination could bring levels beyond sensory threshold. There's not reallyu a way for a home winemaker to test VA. It requires the use of a cash still. I'd error on the side of caution. You can always blend the three buckets back later and get more of a white Burgundy style Chardonnay. I'd really want to get a high dose of SO2 in the brown batch ASAP. 

If you really want to run MLF on it, rack it, thief a sample and evaluate it (you should probably do this any way). Check the color in the glass in good light and smell for any off aromas. I also taste all of my wines through all phases of production, looking for flaws. If there are any flaws beyond a little H2S I would not run MLF. Just my $0.02. If you do innoculate, keep it warm and get it completed quickly so you can get SO2 in it.

The reason I wouldn't blend them now is that if the brown wine is contaminated with something, now all your wine will be. If there is a flaw you will add it to the good wine before they're finished. This allows you to fix the flaw in one carboy without treating the entire batch. If one treatment doesn't work, you can try another, again without affecting all of your wine. Once you add it you can't take it back. You can always blend them further down the line though. You keep more control of the way the finished wine will end up this way.

I usually work with multiple yeasts for each varietal every vintage and sometimes will experiment with different tannins or other products. I've gotten in to the habit of keeping carboys separate (including my press fractions) until about a month before bottling. Then I evaluate the wines on their own. I'll run trials to see if the wines are better blended or left on their own. It keeps the variables to a minimum and allows me to see how different treatments affect the same wines.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 15, 2014)

Good advice. Thx


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## grapeman (Nov 15, 2014)

I really think ReefKeeper is overthinking this at this point. Like I and others have said, keep it separate and see if it turns out fine. Sometimes overthinking and reacting can cause many unneeded problems. Like I said earlier, the juice could have just come from riper grapes containing more pigment in the skins and actually taste better than the lighter wine. Look at the avatar for my usename. See how the grapes are a golden color? Those are nice ripe St Pepin grapes exposed to the sun. Shaded grapes of the same variety are a light green color. The juice from the exposed grapes is darker than the shaded grapes. The finished wine is slightly more golden than the shaded ones.

I will try to post a couple pictures later I just took of two flextanks showing this in 200 gallon tanks. I will keep the two separate and possibly blend later.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 15, 2014)

Thx grape man. That is really my question, is it just darker juice or is it oxidized or having some other problem. I'm going to continue it separately so I guess I'll find out.


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## grapeman (Nov 15, 2014)

Here are two pictures of the same variety of grape - St Pepin which has a lot of characteristics of Chardonnay. The darker ones have darker juice than the lighter colored one my boy is holding in the second picture.


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## grapeman (Nov 15, 2014)

As promised earlier, here are two tanks (200 gallons each) of the same variety of white grape. The one tank on the right is from on a nice sandy site with nice open exposure to the clusters. It is a darker color and much more pronounced peach and apricot flavors. The one on the left is from another vineyard with heavier soils and much more vigorous growth where the clusters are less exposed. While it still has nice fruit flavors, there is also a taste and smell of pineapple and grapefruit. Is one better than the other because it is lighter or darker? No, they are just two variations of the same grapes and wine. And no, the window there does not affect the wine. It is on the shaded side of the building and is pretty small. I also put insulation over it soon which blocks out any sunlight.


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## ReefKeeper (Nov 15, 2014)

grapeman said:


> I really think ReefKeeper is overthinking this at this point.



The OP states that he purchased 2 buckets that had a brix reading of 15 brix and one of 0 brix when he received them and I'm over thinking it? I might be a bit more inclined to agree with you that this is a difference in batches had these buckets not been obviously mistreated. Who knows how long the brown bucket has been sitting around after fermentation completed? I personally would refuse any must entering the winery that was already fermenting, let alone one that had completed fermentation.

The risk that the brown bucket is oxidized is very real and keeping them separate until proven otherwise is obvious to me. I'd rather end up with 12 gallons of decent wine than risk 18 gallons of Chardonnay with acetaldehyde[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]*[FONT=&quot][/FONT]* notes. You are correct that riper berries will have a higher phenolic content (which are prone to oxidation, hence the browner juice) but I disagree that this is the likely explanation in this case simply due to the state the must was received in.


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## grapeman (Nov 15, 2014)

I really don't want to get into a disagreement over this. Pretty much everyone, and myself included has recommended keeping this batch separate just as you are saying. Could this be oxidized? Of course it could be. Nobody is disputing that. Is it oxidized to the point it is no good? The OP sayed himself it tastes and smell fine. Let time settle this. He has done his due diligence by contacting the supplier. ReefKeeper,I respect your opinion on this and it could well be the case, however I don't believe he should do anything harsh such as throwing it out too soon. I have seen many new winemakers overreact to a problem and automatically throw the batch out. If it is a slight oxidation problem affecting color there are remedies that can work in many cases.


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## grapeman (Nov 15, 2014)

nicklausjames said:


> View attachment 18993
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to post a pic bc I fermented the juice and I'm wondering if it is still good. Will the color clear or is it going to look like pond water forever. It doesn't taste that bad.


 


After rereading all this I am really confused now. On November 1 the brix was 0, meaning it was dry so should have been done fermenting. Then on Nov 14 you said you went ahead and fermented it and the picture clearly shows foam at the top, indicating a fermentation is still going on. Have there been any bubbles in the airlock?

It would be nice to get to the bottom of the problem.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 15, 2014)

I am confused to. When I purchased it I measured the brix it was zero. I added sulfite, I think 3 tabs campden. Following this it has been bubbling profusely since. In fact today I added acti malo plus and it foamed over. I took it to the garage and degassed under pressure for at least 20 mins. I am certain my original brix reading was correct as I did it 3 times, unless there is something seriously wrong with my hydrometer.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 15, 2014)

FYI I bought this 10/30 and added the sulfite 11/1. I never added yeast because it was bubbling so much, I just thought it was fermenting. I left it in the garage and I'm in ny so it was fairly cool but even if it was 28 brix it shoukd be done fermenting now, correct?


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## grapeman (Nov 16, 2014)

Have there been bubbles out the airlock steady? If so the only way that could happen is if there is an active fermentation. There needs to be sugar for an active fermentation. If it was a mlf (malolactic fermentation) going on it would produce air bubbles but those are tiny bubbles and make a small ring around the neck of the carboy at the wine surface (higher than you have your level now). That would be a small amount of bubbles and make the airlock bubble once in a while. If it is steady, it is active- if bubbling at a crawl, it could be degassing or mlf. I assume when you said you degassed under pressure, you mean under vacuum. If it is still bubbling after that, it is still active.

Unless you are a winery or some other reason, why not get your SG reading in a normal specific gravity reading. What did it originally read when you say it was 0 brix? That would mean a number under 1.000. If you were using a refractometer, that would require the use of an error correction table if fermentation had begun.


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## nicklausjames (Nov 16, 2014)

I used one of those triple scale hydro meters. I just chose brix to look at rather than sg. Yes the bubbles have been consistent. Perhaps there is something wrong with my hydrometer?


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