# Getting Started in Country Fruit Wine Making ?



## Scooter68 (Feb 20, 2021)

*(Purely personal comments based on my 5 1/2 years on here and making Country Fruit Wine. I don't claim to be any sort of expert, I've just received my share of bumps and bruises and try not to make the same mistake twice)*

By no means are these hard fast "Rules" but rather what I believe are best practices for new _*Fruit *_wine makers.

_*Please note that I make Country fruit wines only NOT grape wines. Practices vary, but only slightly .*_

*This is not a detailed list but rather some guidance based on what I have learned:

Equipment and materials 

1) *Have 2 Hydrometers, They break easily and if it breaks as you are preparing your wine, it forces you to guesstimate or rely on calculations that are tedious and may not be 100% accurate depending on how much your fruit varies from the 'normal' fruit of that type
*2) *Have a pH Meter (How expensive is up to you. BUT even the most expensive is worthless if you don't calibrate it properly. So you need those calbrating solutions/powder packets)
*3) *Gather not just 1, 3, 5 and/or 6.5 gallon carboys but also gather 1/2 gallon, 16oz, 12 oz glass containers that you can securely put an airlock on. (Hint think recycling centers) Kombucha bottles 16oz work nicely. Odd size containers are very useful in storing or aging smaller quantities of extra wine.
*4)* Check all your additives and make sure you know *when to use them and what they do.* Avoid products that contains sodium, like Sodium Metabisulfite and instead use Potassium Metabisulfite. (Why would you want to add salt to wine?)
*5) *Start with good quality fruit or wine base - Using pre-prepared "100% Fruit Juices" may not be giving what you think. Learn to read the list of ingredients. That Cherry Juice may in fact be Grape, Apple, Pear and some Cherry juice. So the result is a blended wine not a 100% Cherry wine in that case. No if you know that and are OK with that - go for it. Just remember the old phrase "Garbage in Garbage out" applies, a watered down juice will not product a solid tasting wine.
*6)* Oh, and don't skimp on the quantities of fruit. many online recipes will call for 3-4 lbs of fruit per gallon. THAT will give you a very 'light on the palate wine.' Just know that and a be aware. Go in with your eyes open and ready to have fun,.
*7) *Remember to get good cleaning supplies and know what they do. We Sanitize we do not Sterilize our equipment. So the proper products are important and some that sound great can adversely affect your wine. (*Bleach *- not good to use unless you are going to rinse, rinse, rinse, and then store the cleaned item for a while.
*8)* Get a couple of really LONG brushes and make sure they will really reach and clean those carboys and buckets. Don't think you can have too many brushes.

*Ok Enough about gathering equipment - Now on to the wine making:*

*A) *Read a lot on here and good books about home wine making. Look for "Best Practices" guidance and avoid the shortcuts for the first couple of batches. Some of those come with potential cost to your wine quality.
*B)* *AVOID YOUTUBE* videos, - they are loaded with unproven 'shortcuts' and outright bad guidance. The few good ones out there are hard to recognize for a newbie. I use the approach - If 15 people and the books tell you one way to do something, be very wary of that "New Exciting Wine making process."
*C) *Gather and check your supplies before you start. The only supplies you don't need to have on hand before starting are Bottles, corks, corker and labels.
*D) TAKE NOTES* about all the steps and measurements as you do them. Especially the SG and pH just BEFORE you pitch the yeast. Also take notes on progression of the ferment and aging process.
*E)* Oversize your batches to allow for the loss of volume due to lees. Check on this site for approximate losses folks experience with each type of fruit. That oversizing will provide you a safety margin and provide you additional wine for topping off and a little taste testing along the way to bottling day.
*F) Don't rush to pitch the yeast *- once you have the wine ready - Let it set overnight if at all possible. If you have properly prepared the wine must it will keep over night easily unless the room is hot. After that overnight wait retake your SG and pH measurements. (TA can be done with pH meter too if you prefer that measurement) Know what your expected ABV will be if the batch ferments all the way dry. An ABV over 13.5 might not be the best route for your first batch of wine.
*G) DON'T *ferment in a carboy, Use food safe plastic bucket and cover it with a cloth cover. You can tie a cord around it if you have nosy pets. And active fermentation can produce a LOT of foam very quickly. (See Foam Fountain in *'J' *below.)
*H) *Stir the must daily for until the SG is approaching 1.020 *and *Take the SG reading once a day for your first couple of batches - THAT's how you know how well the fermentation is progressing
*I) *Start with a wine variety that is something simple, read about experiences folks have had with that type of wine. For example: Watermelon or persimmon wines are a very difficult wines to get right. *Blackberry, Apple, Blueberry*, are pretty good starting wines. At least be aware of what to expect that may be unique to the wine you want to make.
*J) *Transfer to a carboy when 2 conditions are met *1) *Foaming has died down and the surface is starting to have just scattered collections of foam. *2) *When the SG is below 1.020 or even 1.000. If one of these conditions is not met, there is a significant risk of spilling out foam after you rack the wine in to the carboy, Known as a foam fountain or wine volcano. _Not fun cleaning that up and it's a waste of wine. _When doing this you will be leaving the fruit pulp and most of the gross lees behind. *(*_*NOTE: Some folks call this "Secondary Fermentation" or Second phase of fermentation. In reality it's all the same fermentation the fermentation often slows somewhat as the yeast approaches it alcohol tolerance limits or has less food [Sugar] to consume.)*_
*K) *Fermentation takes as long as it takes*** . When the SG reading hasn't changed for 3 days your ferment is either finished, If below 1.000, or stuck/stalled if well above that number. ***_(I've had batches ferment all the way dry in less than 3 days and I've had a few take 3 weeks to finish)_
*L) *Once fermentation has finished get your wine off of the any remaining gross lees (Unless you are doing a sur lei ferment. If you don't know what that is, you probably should not be attempting it yet.)
*M) *You get it off the lees by racking into a carboy and putting in your proper dosage of K-Meta into the carboy first. If you want to dissolve it first fine, a couple of ounces of wine or water works great. Normally the action of the wine flowing into the carboy will dissolve and mix it into the wine as it goes.
*N) *The above *"M" *was your first Post Fermentation racking and you will need plan to rack again normally in 10 days to 3 weeks to get rid of the remaining large quantity of lees. After that second racking the amount of lees should be much smaller and may amount to nothing more than a dusting but remember NOT to suck that dust over into the next carboy.
*O) *Rack the wine every 3 month after your second racking and at each racking add the correct dosage of K-Meta
*P)* Now you are into aging the wine. Except for white wines and some of the more delicate fruit wines aging in bulk is commonly done for 9-12 months.
*Q) Questions? *- Hey this is the place to ask and try to stay ahead of the game. I didn't get into a LOT of areas but some good time spent reading posts on here and asking some question will help you succeed in this hobby. Plan ahead - Asking about when to pitch the yeast after you have already prepared the wine, might lead to issues. We love to help folks but this forum is not a "Monitored" 24/7 help desk. It might take a day or two for answers. Rmember to browse around on this site. There are many sections including the Country Fruit Winemaking and the Recipes forums. Scads of information and not that hard to locate with a little time. On and one last thing about time. Wine making is a hobby for those willing to play the Long-game. Great wine doesn't happen in 6 weeks. (If you don't have patience - this is probably not the hobby for you)

*I'll end this epic post with my personal take on how wine progresses:*
At 6 weeks - yeah it's "Wine"
At 6 -9 months - You can see it's potential now. (Ah it's young but starting to resemble something good)
At 12 months - Enjoyable (Ok That's pretty doggone decent)
At 18-24 months - Something you can be proud to share ( I shoulda made more of this - Hey Bill want to tastes something really good
After 3 years - WOW This is GREAT (And you say to yourself - "*NOBODY *is getting any of this unless they are really REALLY good friends.")
Oh, and good luck having any of your first batches last 3 years unless you have a great deal of self-control.


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## Rembee (Feb 20, 2021)

This is a very good reference and thread to direct new winemakers and some novice winemakers to Scooter. Very well thought out.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 20, 2021)

Thank you. There's so much you learn in the first few years and it pains me to see folks repeating somey of the mistakes I've made and they surprise me with some things I would never have tried to do. (Good & Bad)


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## Rembee (Feb 20, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Thank you. There's so much you learn in the first few years and it pains me to see folks repeating somey of the mistakes I've made and they surprise me with some things I would never have tried to do. (Good & Bad)


This is so true! I agree whole heartedly. Heck, I've been making country wines now for better then 15 years and I'm still learning lol. I started out in 2004. Had plenty of mishaps the first 2 years and became discouraged and walked away for awhile from the hobby. 
Then I came across Jack Keller. His method of wine making changed my whole way of approaching the hobby. He explained methods in the same way that you did at the start of this thread. Kinda opened my eyes and I've never turned back since lol


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## JustJoe (Feb 21, 2021)

Scooter says - 

*I'll end this epic post with my personal take on how wine progresses:*
At 6 weeks - yeah it's "Wine"
At 6 -9 months - You can see it's potential now. (Ah it's young but starting to resemble something good)
At 12 months - Enjoyable (Ok That's pretty doggone decent)
At 18-24 months - Something you can be proud to share ( I shoulda made more of this - Hey Bill want to tastes something really good
After 3 years - WOW This is GREAT (And you say to yourself - "*NOBODY *is getting any of this unless they are really REALLY good friends.")
Oh, and good luck having any of your first batches last 3 years unless you have a great deal of self-control. 

Personally, I have a severe patience deficiency so my solution was to make a LOT of wine. My first year I made 5 gallons and the last bottle was gone about the time I should have been thinking about bottling it. Next year I made 25 gallons - a little of that made it to 18 months from start of fermentation to the end of the last bottle. Since then I have made at least 40 gallons each year and the 2+ year old wine is very good.


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## winemanden (Feb 22, 2021)

Been making wine since 1957. Still learning. Still drinking.
When i was a kid, I never dreamed learning could be so good, and it keeps your joints lubricated. at least your elbow


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## BernardSmith (Feb 22, 2021)

Really good approach to country wine making. I might add three thoughts; 
1. Country wines don't really age as well as red grape wines and I think that that is because they may not be able to inhibit oxidation in as robust a way as red grape wines given the lack of tannins that are inherent to the fruits used. When you crush and press grapes you extract tannins from the seeds (and stems?) in ways that mango or pineapple or apple wines may not possess. 
2. Relatedly, fermenting extracted juice rather than the fruit itself may not always produce the quality of wine possible as we are ignoring the skins and seeds of the fruit that those who focus on grapes have access to. And,
3. Country wines may be flavor rich or flavor thin depending on whether we dilute the expressed juice with water or use water for cleaning and sanitizing. There are some fruits whose natural acidity might suggest the need for some dilution (orange wine, for example), but even here perhaps the flavors might be better highlighted using the zest of the fruit rather than only the juice.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 22, 2021)

Good points Bernard - I always prefer to start with the actual fruit, fresh if, or if need be frozen, and lastly prepared wine bases. Would prefer to NEVER use pre-mixed grocery store juice as I question that if will really be full strength and not diluted are blended with other juices. For most fruit not having the skins and pulp limited the extraction of all the characters of that fruit. 
The one thing I do with most of my wine base or prepared juice concentrates is to use less water than the label recommends. e.g. For my tart cherry wine I use 4 bottles (Each supposed to make 1 gallon) for a 3 gallon wine batch. That way even if I actually start out at a volume of 3.5 gallons, I should be getting a much better flavor.


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## BernardSmith (Feb 23, 2021)

I think that there are juices bottled that are 100 percent of the named juice. Certainly, my local natural food store sells some of these premium brands, but it is impossible to know (in my opinion) whether the fruit picked is at the peak of ripeness and if so, why are they being turned into juice and not sold to five star restaurants?


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## Scooter68 (Feb 23, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I think that there are juices bottled that are 100 percent of the named juice. Certainly, my local natural food store sells some of these premium brands, but it is impossible to know (in my opinion) whether the fruit picked is at the peak of ripeness and if so, why are they being turned into juice and not sold to five star restaurants?



Yes - The source is a key part of the solution. Reading the label is the key of course. And for those fruits sold at health food stores or by companies touting the product as a "Health Food" are more likely to be higher quality. Of course they also know that the fruit that has reached the "Peak of Ripeness and flavor" is also not going to ship well to stores or restaurant. (For those fruits that continue to ripen after picking) so using them in juice solves that problem form them. The fruit can even have cosmetic 'blemishes' and still be be perfect for making juices.
I'm far more likely to buy from those sources than from grocery stores regardless of how prestigious the brand name, they still are focused on their bottom line so adding water or blending other juices is fair game as long as they stay within the bounds of federal and state laws.


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## winemanden (Feb 23, 2021)

I like what Scooter says "be very wary of that "New Exciting Wine making process." 
Not just in wine making, you can see it regularly in stores and supermarkets. New Improved Recipe. If the recipe was good in the first place, why would you want to improve it? 
Too many people repeat things without trying them out for themselves. It's easy to ask about it on forums such as this.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 23, 2021)

*ADDITION TO THE LIST OF EQUIPMENT/MATERIALS in the leading post of this thread.

9)* A large funnel (Some come with a nylon filter insert which can be useful) AND an assortment of Stainless Steel strainers. These are handy for filtering out the fruit pulp that gets out of the fermentation bag or if you forget to put your fruit in fermentation bag. Have multiple strainers because they will clog up as you poor. I try to put the strainer into my funnel and then swap it out as I am pouring the wine lees from the fermentation bucket .

_(I have this exact strainer set but not this exact Funnel. This funnel looks interesting the filter would clog up quickly and if you could have 2 or 3 extra that would help.)_


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## my wine (Feb 23, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> (I have this exact strainer set but not this exact Funnel. This funnel looks interesting the filter would clog up quickly and if you could have 2 or 3 extra that would help.)


I need a bigger funnel than what I have. I also have that same strainer set and I've used one of the strainers in my current funnel. It let me squeeze juice out of the fruit.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 23, 2021)

Would this be large enough? They also have an 8" one as well. Sure there are others around too. I don't use the strainer because it gets clogged to quickly and if i try to remove it all the strained gunk goes down the funnel that's why the strainer is better for me.

I'm sure other have this one too found it also at Midwest supplies and that's all the further I searched.


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## Granrey (Feb 24, 2021)




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## Granrey (Feb 24, 2021)

While, I have mostly being inspired to this hobby by the YouTube videos. I do have my criticism towards them in certain things. 

One of them seem to be real lack of understanding of what they are doing.

Disclaimer: the video below is not to offend anyone, neither the host.

For instance in the video below you will see the host taking a hydrometer reading on every juice prior fermentation and I think is because he did not add sugar later. Otherwise, he would have taken the reading after adding sugar, which seems to be what everybody does.


Then he goes to explain how these juices should have the same reading country wide.

However, my criticism is. The sugar content is already mentioned on the box.

The 4 juices he tested were:
Can Pineable= 1.048
Cherry Juice=1.05
Welch Grape= 1.068
Apple Juice= 1.05

For instance, If you see the ingredients of Welch juice (online). it tells you it has 42g for every 0.250L. meaning the sugar density is 42/0.240=168g/L. for this number the hydrometer reading should be 1.063. This can be found on tables.

Comparing them all (Hydro vs Box):

Can Pineable= 1.048 vs 1.04 
Cherry Juice=1.05 vs 1.042
Welch Grape= 1.068 vs 1.063
Apple Juice= 1.05 vs 1.035

the differences can be attributed to hydrometer readings (temperature, user error, other substances), errors on the label, etc.

Back to beginning there are lots of videos on YouTube in which the hosts have their mind set on how much sugar to add per litre of juice (maybe the experience). They don't bother to read the label for sugar neither take a hydrometer reading prior adding sugar to know the sugar they have already and how much more to add. They only do hydrometer reading after adding the sugar.

The funny thing is that they add the sugar then become a bit surprised when the reading does not match what they were expecting.


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## my wine (Feb 24, 2021)

I have a can of red raspberry juice. I was considering combining with another fruit to make a wine and I looked for some ideas here. Searching WMT I noticed many made black raspberry wine but not red. Has onyone made red raspberry wine? How was it?

Has anyone made red raspbarry and another fruit? What did you use and how did it turn out? Thanks!


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## Scooter68 (Feb 24, 2021)

I'll admit - I have watched one or two but that was it. The second one, I lost track of all the poor practices being "demonstrated." 

But this is one You Tube Video that is really cool. If I bought my wine bottles, I'd probably seriously consider this product.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 24, 2021)

my wine said:


> I have a can of red raspberry juice. I was considering combining with another fruit to make a wine and I looked for some ideas here. Searching WMT I noticed many made black raspberry wine but not red. Has onyone made red raspberry wine? How was it?
> 
> Has anyone made red raspbarry and another fruit? What did you use and how did it turn out? Thanks!



Yes - I did but I used a can of Vintner's Harvest Red Raspberry wine base - meh, not impressed by it. So mild compared to Black Raspberry and especially Wild Black Raspberries. I did make a "Triple Berry" Wine with Red Raspberries but it only had about 1.5 lbs of them. They were obviously overpowered by the Wild Blackberries and Wild Black Raspberries.


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## Ivywoods (Feb 25, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Yes - I did but I used a can of Vintner's Harvest Red Raspberry wine base - meh, not impressed by it. So mild compared to Black Raspberry and especially Wild Black Raspberries. I did make a "Triple Berry" Wine with Red Raspberries but it only had about 1.5 lbs of them. They were obviously overpowered by the Wild Blackberries and Wild Black Raspberries.


Wild black raspberries are awesome but hard to come by for me. Have you used the golden raspberries? I don't have enough of those to make wine, but might be able to combine them with another fruit.


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## Khristyjeff (Feb 25, 2021)

my wine said:


> I have a can of red raspberry juice. I was considering combining with another fruit to make a wine and I looked for some ideas here. Searching WMT I noticed many made black raspberry wine but not red. Has onyone made red raspberry wine? How was it?
> 
> Has anyone made red raspbarry and another fruit? What did you use and how did it turn out? Thanks!


I did a cheap Zinfandel Rosé kit (Wine Lovers) that I added a raspberry f-pac in primary (and some got sucked into secondary), made it to 5 gal. instead of 6 and added some simple sugar to get the 7% ABV higher. It is excellent. Tastes like red raspberry wine.


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## my wine (Feb 25, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Yes - I did but I used a can of Vintner's Harvest Red Raspberry wine base - meh, not impressed by it.


That's what I have also, the Vintner's Harvest meh raspberry.  Now I'm more motivated to add another flavor with it. I will use the 3 gallon recipe to make it more flavorful. 

The Zin Rose is a neat idea but wanted to make a country wine for the experience instead of a grape wine with fruit flavor. I'm currently taking a Merlot and adding cherries post-secondary to make a Cherry Merlot. That's still going; haven't tasted it yet. 

I have about 2 pounds of overripe frozen bananas, frozen cherries, green apple extract and raisins in the home inventory. I can easily get frozen blueberries, blackberries, mixed berries, canned peaches, etc. Or flavor concentrates at my local brew store. I'm still hoping to hear if someone had an interesting mix they made or even if some combination sounds good.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 25, 2021)

Blackberry and Black Raspberry with the Red Raspberry could make into a nice wine. Your can of VH Red Raspberry along with about 6-7 lbs each of Blackberry and Black Raspberry for a 5 gallon batch. Of course push your volume up above 5 to maybe 5.75 all three of these berries should break down well and when pressed well afterwards I think you can safely get 5 gallons with some extra for topping off along the way. That's the way I would probably use a can for the Red Raspberry now knowing what it makes into by itself. \

We have Wild Blackberrys in the freezer and if we have a good season I hope get to use the older frozen berries for wine. [My wife does the blackberry picking so I am careful not to use any of the 1-2 year old frozen berries.] Wild Black Raspberries are tough to come by they seem to only grow in limited areas and then they fade away after a couple of years and pop up somewhere else.


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## hounddawg (Feb 26, 2021)

winemanden said:


> Been making wine since 1957. Still learning. Still drinking.
> When i was a kid, I never dreamed learning could be so good, and it keeps your joints lubricated. at least your elbow


Amen,,,, I since 1975, then went on the road for twelve years, then a few years later joined WMT to marry the old ways with work saving pumps, processes and chemicals, and yes to have learned it all means your heartbeat has stopped, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Feb 26, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Blackberry and Black Raspberry with the Red Raspberry could make into a nice wine. Your can of VH Red Raspberry along with about 6-7 lbs each of Blackberry and Black Raspberry for a 5 gallon batch. Of course push your volume up above 5 to maybe 5.75 all three of these berries should break down well and when pressed well afterwards I think you can safely get 5 gallons with some extra for topping off along the way. That's the way I would probably use a can for the Red Raspberry now knowing what it makes into by itself. \
> 
> We have Wild Blackberrys in the freezer and if we have a good season I hope get to use the older frozen berries for wine. [My wife does the blackberry picking so I am careful not to use any of the 1-2 year old frozen berries.] Wild Black Raspberries are tough to come by they seem to only grow in limited areas and then they fade away after a couple of years and pop up somewhere else.


bush hog your briars every 4 to 5 years, i bush hog 1/2 then 2 year later bush hog the rest. so you'll always have producing briar patches, just like milking cows or goats, they need restarted,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Feb 26, 2021)

OH @Scooter68 very nice thread,,,
Dawg


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## my wine (Feb 26, 2021)

While still hunting for raspberry wine ideas, I came across this gem. I'm posting here since the recipes are mostly country wines.

https://swguildpa.com/wp-content/up...ler-Complete-Requested-Recipes-Collection.pdf 

Recipes include Cranberry-Raspberry, Raspberry-Chipotle, White Grape Juice-Raspberry, ... I also found a Raspberry-Pear recipe online.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 27, 2021)

my wine said:


> While still hunting for raspberry wine ideas, I came across this gem. I'm posting here since the recipes are mostly country wines.
> 
> https://swguildpa.com/wp-content/up...ler-Complete-Requested-Recipes-Collection.pdf
> 
> Recipes include Cranberry-Raspberry, Raspberry-Chipotle, White Grape Juice-Raspberry, ... I also found a Raspberry-Pear recipe online.



Yeah Jack Keller is well known for his recipes. Hang on to that info as after he passed they disappeared. He was not into strong flavored wines but seemed to perfer higher ABV wines than some prefer. Great reference material though.


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## Scooter68 (Feb 27, 2021)

I have not used used golden raspberries. I imagine if they are home grown they should make into some really nice wine. Bet the color would make it look like a "White Wine" until the flavor hits the taste buds. That would be a fun trick to pull on someone.


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## Jovimaple (Mar 3, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Yeah Jack Keller is well known for his recipes. Hang on to that info as after he passed they disappeared. He was not into strong flavored wines but seemed to perfer higher ABV wines than some prefer. Great reference material though.


I was just looking for his recipes yesterday and found his obituary but no recipes.


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## Jovimaple (Mar 3, 2021)

my wine said:


> While still hunting for raspberry wine ideas, I came across this gem. I'm posting here since the recipes are mostly country wines.
> 
> https://swguildpa.com/wp-content/up...ler-Complete-Requested-Recipes-Collection.pdf
> 
> Recipes include Cranberry-Raspberry, Raspberry-Chipotle, White Grape Juice-Raspberry, ... I also found a Raspberry-Pear recipe online.


This is awesome!! Thank you for posting this!


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## Scooter68 (Mar 4, 2021)

Keep in mind that his recipes favor lighter fruit taste and a bit higher ABV. As long as that suits your taste they are pretty complete and well explained. I don't know who snagged all the recipes he posted but apparently they are out there.


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## Jovimaple (Mar 4, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Keep in mind that his recipes favor lighter fruit taste and a bit higher ABV. As long as that suits your taste they are pretty complete and well explained. I don't know who snagged all the recipes he posted but apparently they are out there.


Thanks for the callout on his fruit amounts. I have noticed that in some of the other recipes I have found on the internet, too. I plan to use his as a reference and tweak to my tastes as far as the ABV especially. Probably end up with more fruit, too.

I looked through some of the recipes and for me, his experience in trying so many different ingredients helps me to see if I should even attempt some of them (ex: craisins) or if it really isn't a good idea. Fun stuff and thanks again to whoever compiled his recipes!


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## Scooter68 (Mar 4, 2021)

I'm sure that his recipes produce great results. If you haven't done much (Or any) wine making, my only suggestion would be to start out with a couple of simple recipes with minimal number of different fruit, flavor additives. Then move on from there. If you are a more experienced wine maker then go for it. Raisins, craisins etc. Fruit wines are all I know, all I've really done simply because you can't buy them off the shelf in their "Pure Form" unless you get really lucky. (At least that's here in the US.) Keller's recipes won prizes so certainly they work.


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## Ivywoods (Mar 5, 2021)

I downloaded Jacks's recipes. So many wines..... I should have started this adventure many years ago!


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## mikewatkins727 (Mar 5, 2021)

Like my wife, I use a recipe as a guide and Jack Keller was an inspiration. Much to our lost Jack has crossed that bridge and some of his writings are hard to come by. I downloaded some of his recipes and discussions on different subjects. Should have downloaded the entire web site. Didn't think he would go before me, tho we were the same age. Guess his time in Vietnam didn't help much.


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## Rembee (Mar 5, 2021)

For any of you that are interested, there is a Jack Keller recipe book coming out in May by Jack B. Keller Jr. 
*Home Winemaking: The Simple Way to Make Delicious Wine*


https://www.amazon.com/dp/159193947X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_4WJR85DXK5AJRQQB3VNZ


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## KCCam (Mar 7, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> *2) *Have a pH Meter


Since you recommend having a pH meter, would it be worth while adding a note about the range you should shoot for, and how to adjust it? Or is that too much detail?


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## Scooter68 (Mar 7, 2021)

A lot depends on your patience and the instructions with the pH meter. My first one seemed to work fine for about 3 1/5 years. The one I replaced it with is a pain to calibrate. So.... While I can find what I ordered the first time... it's no longer available on Amazon. What I liked about it was that you adjusted it with a screwdriver and that was quite simple and straight forward. The new one has badly written/translated instructions and recommends 3 pt calibration.

Honestly there are just so many out there and so many look just a like. My first was yellow body with black cap and top. 

Generally I spend a little time on things like this reading the reviews and looking at how many people reviewed it. Anything with more than 10% ratings of 1 star... not likely to buy that. Also Iook to make sure the reviews are for the correct item (Tells you Amazon monitors reviews very poorly) Sorry I can't give you better advice. Fortunately most start around $25.oo or even less sometimes so it's not going to break the bank.

As far as range - I look for something with an a accuracy rating of .05 or better. (That would mean a reading of 3.53 might actually be 3.58 or 3.48 )
I'd avoid anything that is only accurate to .1 or higher. (That would mean the reading of 3.6 might actually be 3.7 or 3.5 - that's a pretty wide range)
Adjusting them varies from model to model.


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## KCCam (Mar 7, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> A lot depends on your patience and the instructions with the pH meter. My first one seemed to work fine for about 3 1/5 years. The one I replaced it with is a pain to calibrate. So.... While I can find what I ordered the first time... it's no longer available on Amazon. What I liked about it was that you adjusted it with a screwdriver and that was quite simple and straight forward. The new one has badly written/translated instructions and recommends 3 pt calibration.
> 
> Honestly there are just so many out there and so many look just a like. My first was yellow body with black cap and top.
> 
> ...


Sorry, wasn't talking about the meter itself, but the target range for the must. I was suggesting a little more info for us beginning country wine makers about what is normal, how far away from that should you consider adjusting it, etc. But thinking about it, your post is perfect as-is. Not the place to get into that type of detail.


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## heatherd (Mar 8, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Wild black raspberries are awesome but hard to come by for me. Have you used the golden raspberries? I don't have enough of those to make wine, but might be able to combine them with another fruit.


You could add some of this juice if you wanted to do a raspberry (or any fruit wine) and needed more fruit: - Walker's Wine Juice, LLC


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## heatherd (Mar 8, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Keep in mind that his recipes favor lighter fruit taste and a bit higher ABV. As long as that suits your taste they are pretty complete and well explained. I don't know who snagged all the recipes he posted but apparently they are out there.


It is my understanding that his widow collected them all into a pdf after his passing.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 8, 2021)

I've always used a *target pH range of 3.4 to 3.6 * I raise Blueberries and they are normally going to be at the low end of that. 

Anything above 3.6 I would adjust. I would start a blueberry batch as lost as 3.35 but that's about the limit for me.


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## Tstryke (May 20, 2021)

JustJoe said:


> Oh, and good luck having any of your first batches last 3 years unless you have a great deal of self-control.



I read that and just about spat my drink all over my keyboard. I just started my first ever kit (a 1 gallon) and I was looking at it last night and thinking, "That's like one night of drinking for us. We're going to need more wine."


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## BernardSmith (May 20, 2021)

One night of drinking? A gallon is 5 bottles and each bottle is likely to be around 12% ABV. You may want/need more wine but THAT is a hell of a lot of alcohol for most folk. Of course if you have a large extended family then a gallon ain't so much but five bottles a day?


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## Tstryke (May 20, 2021)

I actually drank 3 bottles myself last weekend (on a Saturday), granted it was a virtual "tasting" that lasted all day and we all know the wine at the bottom of the bottle tastes the best...…My fiancée drank two more. We do love wine when we actually get around to drinking it.

It's definitely a rare occasion when we hit it like that but we can put it away when the occasion arises.


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## hounddawg (May 21, 2021)

Tstryke said:


> I actually drank 3 bottles myself last weekend (on a Saturday), granted it was a virtual "tasting" that lasted all day and we all know the wine at the bottom of the bottle tastes the best...…My fiancée drank two more. We do love wine when we actually get around to drinking it.
> 
> It's definitely a rare occasion when we hit it like that but we can put it away when the occasion arises.


dang that makes me hate the next morning
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (May 21, 2021)

I gave away two bottles of wine from 2016 to a friend and told him - Don't expect too much from these. I said when you try them if you don't like them pour them down the drain - I will NOT be offended because I almost poured them out a couple of times when I tried a bottle at 2 years and 3 years. Then I sort of forgot about them/ignored them but kept them around to remind me of what can happen. One was strawberry the other Apricot. Will never bother with either one again. Last Apricot I tried about 6-8 months ago had risen in my rating to - meh. (that would make the wines 5 years old)
This friend is getting to try out about 15 different wines I 've made - I know him to be able to be bluntly honest and that's what I'm looking for. You can't improve if folks don't give you a little feedback +/-


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## BernardSmith (May 21, 2021)

I love country wines but I find many "recipes" published on line are blah even before I begin. No one would think of using 3 lbs of grapes to make a gallon of wine but country wine folk have a religious commitment to dilute their fruit with more water than they would dilute concentrates. That said, do you know the basic recipe you used to make the strawberry and the apricot wines? Neither fruit, of course, are flavor rich at the best of times. Me? I try to use about 10 lbs of strawberries /gallon and add enough tannin and acidity to keep the red color. Strawberry blonde might be a hair color but strawberry wine should be a deep red and not a pale orange.


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## hounddawg (May 22, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> I gave away two bottles of wine from 2016 to a friend and told him - Don't expect too much from these. I said when you try them if you don't like them pour them down the drain - I will NOT be offended because I almost poured them out a couple of times when I tried a bottle at 2 years and 3 years. Then I sort of forgot about them/ignored them but kept them around to remind me of what can happen. One was strawberry the other Apricot. Will never bother with either one again. Last Apricot I tried about 6-8 months ago had risen in my rating to - meh. (that would make the wines 5 years old)
> This friend is getting to try out about 15 different wines I 've made - I know him to be able to be bluntly honest and that's what I'm looking for. You can't improve if folks don't give you a little feedback +/-


Amen


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## hounddawg (May 22, 2021)

amen


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## Scooter68 (May 24, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I love country wines but I find many "recipes" published on line are blah even before I begin. No one would think of using 3 lbs of grapes to make a gallon of wine but country wine folk have a religious commitment to dilute their fruit with more water than they would dilute concentrates. That said, do you know the basic recipe you used to make the strawberry and the apricot wines? Neither fruit, of course, are flavor rich at the best of times. Me? I try to use about 10 lbs of strawberries /gallon and add enough tannin and acidity to keep the red color. Strawberry blonde might be a hair color but strawberry wine should be a deep red and not a pale orange.


 Your point is well taken and yes, the strawberry was a low fruit batch. The Apricot was made from a can of Vintner's Harvest Puree and that was also probably a mistake too. That was not highly diluted but overall it just was not anything like what I hoped for. (Think I tried to may 1.5 gallons with it.)

The amount of fruit per gallon of wine for country wines really depends on the fruit. Some, like strawberry clearly need to be almost a pure fruit juice wine. Blueberries, eh 6-7 lbs/gallon is about right, Wild Blackberries or Wild Black Raspberries are fine at about 5lbs per gallon. So one size-fits-all doesn't work well for country wines. Potency of flavor varies way too much to do that.


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## BarrelMonkey (May 24, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> The amount of fruit per gallon of wine for country wines really depends on the fruit.



Any thoughts on fruit per gallon for elderberry? It looks like I'm going to have a lot of berries this year so I'd like to make at least a gallon as an experiment. The recipes I've found so far range from 3 to 10lb per (US) gallon...


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## hounddawg (May 24, 2021)

BarrelMonkey said:


> Any thoughts on fruit per gallon for elderberry? It looks like I'm going to have a lot of berries this year so I'd like to make at least a gallon as an experiment. The recipes I've found so far range from 3 to 10lb per (US) gallon...


7's plenty for elderberry, even 5 to 6 work mighty fine, the real trick is aging 7 to 10 years,
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (May 24, 2021)

I've actually heard folks use 3-4 lbs of elderberries with success but I have zero experience making elderberry wine from the actual fruit. I suspect a lot has to do with the quality of the berries and the methods used to extract the juice.


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## winemanden (May 25, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I love country wines but I find many "recipes" published on line are blah even before I begin. No one would think of using 3 lbs of grapes to make a gallon of wine but country wine folk have a religious commitment to dilute their fruit with more water than they would dilute concentrates. That said, do you know the basic recipe you used to make the strawberry and the apricot wines? Neither fruit, of course, are flavor rich at the best of times. Me? I try to use about 10 lbs of strawberries /gallon and add enough tannin and acidity to keep the red color. Strawberry blonde might be a hair color but strawberry wine should be a deep red and not a pale orange.


I think a lot of the problems with "old" country recipes, is that they were from a time of shortages of money more than anything else. ABV and quantity were premium in those days.


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2021)

BarrelMonkey said:


> Any thoughts on fruit per gallon for elderberry? It looks like I'm going to have a lot of berries this year so I'd like to make at least a gallon as an experiment. The recipes I've found so far range from 3 to 10lb per (US) gallon...


The answer to me is how much do you like tannic flavors? My last elderberry was 6.2 Kg in a 19 liter batch of concord juice. The tannic notes were dominating on year one, so I would ask folks “do you like a tannic wine?”


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## BernardSmith (May 25, 2021)

winemanden said:


> I think a lot of the problems with "old" country recipes, is that they were from a time of shortages of money more than anything else. ABV and quantity were premium in those days.



Interesting thought but I might counter this with the suggestion that most older country wine recipes came from people who grew their own fruits and vegetables and their approach to wine making was as much about preserving some of the "harvest" for many months more than most other methods of preservation to which they had access. If you grow apples they will only be edible for so long. The same with zucchini or berries or rhubarb. In other words, the cost would be less than zero because if they chose not to make wine they might not have been able to salvage the fruit of their labor. And my assumption comes from the fact that anyone who lived with apple or pear trees would almost certainly have learned to make (hard) cider before they were old enough to knock those fruits from the branches.


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## winemaker81 (May 25, 2021)

winemanden said:


> I think a lot of the problems with "old" country recipes, is that they were from a time of shortages of money more than anything else. ABV and quantity were premium in those days.





BernardSmith said:


> Interesting thought but I might counter this with the suggestion that most older country wine recipes came from people who grew their own fruits and vegetables and their approach to wine making was as much about preserving some of the "harvest" for many months more than most other methods of preservation to which they had access.


Both sides of this question are true, depending on the situation.


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## cenk57 (May 26, 2021)

heatherd said:


> It is my understanding that his widow collected them all into a pdf after his passing.



I have the entire Jack Keller collection, all 326 pages of it. If you would like a copy, message me. I'd be happy to share - the file actually states to "pass it on" in Jack's honor.

Other posters are correct. His recipes are light on flavor and high ABV. I have made a few wines exactly as he calls for. To light in flavor for my taste. But the process in each recipe is explained fairly well. It is generally the same process for everything. Not my cup of tea (or wine, ). It is a good reference for inspiration and ideas, however.


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## Scooter68 (May 26, 2021)

I'll make this comment with regard to how much fruit to use. 

If you happen to make a wine with 100 fruit juice and no water - Oh My what do I dp if my wine is wine is over poweringly strong? 
Simple - blend with a white wine (or a red) until you reach an acceptable flavor level. 
If you make a wine with 2-3 lbs of fruit and - Oh My what do I do, my wine is so weak flavored?
Well buttercup, you can make another batch with ALL juice and hope to raise the flavor level, but beyond that, there isn't lot you can do. Adding juices at the end may help but the flavors change as result of fermentation so it won't be quite the same as if you had more fruit in there from the get go. Also adding more fruit juice at the end is going to increase the sweetness most likely and that might not be what you are looking for, plus if you add a significant amount of juice you are going to either reduce the ABV or restart a fermentation.

My preference then is just to make sure I have enough fruit or even too much fruit rather than making a weaker wine. Blending down the strength is a lot easier than raising the strength. of a weak flavored wine.

In the end If your happy - roll on.


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## Lucyray (May 26, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> 7's plenty for elderberry, even 5 to 6 work mighty fine, the real trick is aging 7 to 10 years,
> Dawg


Would this comment about aging a long time apply to autumn olive wine also, I wonder? (Please excuse my interruption to the op) Thank you (I just bottled batch made in October 2020) ( Only my third batch of wine, using a Kellar recipe.)


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## llb6845 (May 27, 2021)

cenk57 said:


> I have the entire Jack Keller collection, all 326 pages of it. If you would like a copy, message me. I'd be happy to share - the file actually states to "pass it on" in Jack's honor.
> 
> Other posters are correct. His recipes are light on flavor and high ABV. I have made a few wines exactly as he calls for. To light in flavor for my taste. But the process in each recipe is explained fairly well. It is generally the same process for everything. Not my cup of tea (or wine, ). It is a good reference for inspiration and ideas, however.


Yes


cenk57 said:


> I have the entire Jack Keller collection, all 326 pages of it. If you would like a copy, message me. I'd be happy to share - the file actually states to "pass it on" in Jack's honor.
> 
> Other posters are correct. His recipes are light on flavor and high ABV. I have made a few wines exactly as he calls for. To light in flavor for my taste. But the process in each recipe is explained fairly well. It is generally the same process for everything. Not my cup of tea (or wine, ). It is a good reference for inspiration and ideas, however.


Yes, I'd like a copy of the collection please. Can you email it to [email protected]. thanks!


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## winemaker81 (May 27, 2021)

cenk57 said:


> I have the entire Jack Keller collection, all 326 pages of it. If you would like a copy, message me. I'd be happy to share - the file actually states to "pass it on" in Jack's honor.


As long as the book is free to distribute, send me a copy and I'll post it on my web site. My email is the same ID as my WMT ID, at gmail.com


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## Scooter68 (May 27, 2021)

Lucyray said:


> Would this comment about aging a long time apply to autumn olive wine also, I wonder? (Please excuse my interruption to the op) Thank you (I just bottled batch made in October 2020) ( Only my third batch of wine, using a Kellar recipe.)



The 'best' aging time varies from fruit to fruit. So there is no pat answer other than perhaps start with 1 year aging then check a bottle at each year point. Once you like that taste - Then drink, distribute to friends etc. Every fruit is a little different just as individual likes and dislikes. And it can vary from batch to batch. As a starting point I would start with as two point check 1) Is the wine perfectly clear? 2) Is it totally degassed. Now if you are allowing those two conditions to be reached naturally (No filtering/fining agents and no specific de-gassing action,) then once you reach those two points, begin your taste testing.
My personal choice is to plan on final clearing/fining if needed, at 9-12 months, then back-sweeten to taste and bottle. Then, depending on how it tasted when back-sweetened either wait a month to clear possible bottle shock and begin consuming, OR if it needs more aging, let it age in the bottle.

I normally don't bulk age over a year unless the wine is just not clearing. (_PEACH for example *@#(*)(@#*$%)@** is terribly slow to clear for me, but; I use all of the peach except for the stones, and stems. If it isn't moldy, green or hard, it goes into my slow juicer and gets put into the wine.)_


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## BernardSmith (May 27, 2021)

But some (many?) country wines are very drinkable after a few months and many more after 6 months. A few may need a year to come into their own but I wonder if that amount of time has far more to do with the ABV and the various poor nutritional protocols used by many wine makers. My elderflower, sumac, dandelion, and mulberry are all well-aged by 6 months and my t'ej and skeeter pee are very enjoyable in 3 -4 months


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## winemaker81 (May 27, 2021)

@BernardSmith makes an excellent point. ABV, acid, and residual sugar tend to increase longevity, so lower levels of the 3 may make for a quicker drinking wine.


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## Raptor99 (May 27, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @BernardSmith makes an excellent point. ABV, acid, and residual sugar tend to increase longevity, so lower levels of the 3 may make for a quicker drinking wine.



Also, wines with a higher level of tannins need longer to age.


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## Scooter68 (May 27, 2021)

My lighter wines (Peach, Apple and Pineapple/Mango) have been quite drinkable early on. With Peach it's a matter of getting it to clear. When I used a lot less peaches, the wine cleared within 6-8 months, now with the use of 6-8lbs per gallon it has taken 18 months to clear....but it's worth it. The flavor difference between 4-5lb / Gallon and 6-8 is tremendous. As to the others, Pineapple/Mango is consistently the quickest clearing and it is ready to drink within 6-7 months. Since I tend toward higher pounds/gallon and higher ABV's that's why I wait and it's always worth it.

My experience with wines like blueberry, tart cherry, and black currant have taught me to wait and I don't mind. All comes back to the question that was asked 'How long to age a country wine' and my answer remains - There is no one answer to the question. It's always case by case. If you change a variable the results can vary too.


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## Rice_Guy (May 27, 2021)

A few general comments; (I have not sampled autum olive)
* astringent fruits frequently lose some of that flavor note with age.
* air exposure reduces shelf life, it creates acetaldehyde (burn in the back of the throat when swallowing it, it reduces fruity aroma
* as noted lower pH and alcohol improves shelf life
* if you back sweeten a young wine you risk yeast refermentation, you didn’t say you sweetened? ? Yes ? Wine with sugar in I will either wait a year or add potassium sorbate, ,,, sweet wines can explode.
* fruit wines tend to have low oxidation resistance so to get shelf life we dose with potassium metabisulphite and tannins
* as noted above taste is personal preference, you like then use it, also on your third batch you may have more experience with this fruit. The rules for every fruit are different
* as Dawg noted long age is hard to do, I am tempted to say some is dumb luck as finding a thirty year old black raspberry in moms basement with a good cap. In general the more you let air in the faster it deteriorates. 


Lucyray said:


> Would this comment about aging a long time apply to autumn olive wine also, I wonder? (Please excuse my interruption to the op) Thank you (I just bottled batch made in October 2020) ( Only my third batch of wine, using a Kellar recipe.)


_by the way, welcome to wine making talk_


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## Bandonart (May 28, 2021)

llb6845 said:


> Yes
> 
> Yes, I'd like a copy of the collection please. Can you email it to [email protected]. thanks!


I feel kind of weird asking for a copy, seeing as how I just joined. But, if no one minds, I'd love a copy at [email protected]. Thank you.


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## Ivywoods (May 28, 2021)

I would like a copy as well. [email protected]


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## Scooter68 (May 28, 2021)

*To those asking questions about aging specific wine varieties, especially unusual ones *- I would recommend that you NOT post here but rather start a new thread with your wine type in the title. Far more chance of getting a response from someone with experience or knowledge of that particular variety.

*That also goes for any question regarding specific situations and conditions.* Not everyone browses through all the different forums and threads within a forum. When you put it out there as a thread title within an appropriate forum THEN you stand a much better chance of getting the best available help.

Posting here doesn't bother me other than my wondering if you will get the best help. Think about a thread title before posting within that thread unless the comments specifically interest you or you have a question about those comments. Example - I only look at 1-3 forums on this site unless I am looking for help. Even within those threads I ignore a lot of them as I have no interest in that thread topic.

*We want new folks and in fact everyone to get the best help that can be provided.*


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## winemanden (May 29, 2021)

The best bet as regards ageing, is to get 1/2 or even 1/4 bottles and fill them at the same time as your main batch. I know wine usually ages better in larger bottles, but doing it that way and tasting at intervals, it will give you a rough idea as to how the big boys are progressing.


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## wetneck (Jul 20, 2022)

Scooter68 said:


> Yes - I did but I used a can of Vintner's Harvest Red Raspberry wine base - meh, not impressed by it. So mild compared to Black Raspberry and especially Wild Black Raspberries. I did make a "Triple Berry" Wine with Red Raspberries but it only had about 1.5 lbs of them. They were obviously overpowered by the Wild Blackberries and Wild Black Raspberries.


I was checking out Vintners wine bases. They all have high fructose corn syrup and cost as much as buying actual fruit so i had to pass on that plan.


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## BernardSmith (Jul 20, 2022)

wetneck said:


> I was checking out Vintners wine bases. They all have high fructose corn syrup and cost as much as buying actual fruit so i had to pass on that plan.


They used to be so much better. Last year I bought a couple and was sorely disappointed. I had assumed that the key ingredient was the sole ingredient but I was so wrong... Neither the rhubarb or the elderberry were predominantly rhubarb or elderberry. Why they included HFCS and grape juice I have no idea. They have lost me as a customer.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 20, 2022)

wetneck said:


> I was checking out Vintners wine bases. They all have high fructose corn syrup and cost as much as buying actual fruit so i had to pass on that plan.


Make sure you are looking at *Vintner's HARVEST (VH) and not Vintner's BEST (VB) *- They are VERY different and to me *VB* has two strikes - 1st it's not a 100% juice wine base - It's a mix of different fruits not just the one on the pretty picture and Title. 2nd As you mentioned it's loaded with corn syrup and while that's not necessarily a bad thing - you are paying for that. 

_Some folks have been trying out Colomnafrozen.com as they have 100% single type fruit wine bases._


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## wetneck (Jul 20, 2022)

Thanks for pointing the name differences out. I didnt know about that.


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## Rojoguio (Aug 1, 2022)

I'm late to the game here but GREAT POST, lots of very good points to make and teach me. Thanks!


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## SeniorHobby (Oct 1, 2022)

BernardSmith said:


> Really good approach to country wine making. I might add three thoughts;
> 1. Country wines don't really age as well as red grape wines and I think that that is because they may not be able to inhibit oxidation in as robust a way as red grape wines given the lack of tannins that are inherent to the fruits used. When you crush and press grapes you extract tannins from the seeds (and stems?) in ways that mango or pineapple or apple wines may not possess.
> 2. Relatedly, fermenting extracted juice rather than the fruit itself may not always produce the quality of wine possible as we are ignoring the skins and seeds of the fruit that those who focus on grapes have access to. And,
> 3. Country wines may be flavor rich or flavor thin depending on whether we dilute the expressed juice with water or use water for cleaning and sanitizing. There are some fruits whose natural acidity might suggest the need for some dilution (orange wine, for example), but even here perhaps the flavors might be better highlighted using the zest of the fruit rather than only the juice.


@BernardSmith 
It was nice to see your comment about the quality of wine fermented from juice, without the seeds and skins. I was debating this very subject when I was squeezing some recently acquired Concord grapes into juice. I planned to freeze them as my garden harvesting didn't allow me the time to start the fermentation process. When I did this I was wondering what the ratio of juice to normal "pounds of fruit" would be. I also was wondering if it was a good idea to not ferment the skins and seeds. With this is mind I did save the skins and seeds in freezer bags. I was thinking that I might ferment the juice with the skins & seeds in a fruit bag in the fermenter for a shorter amount of time than the full ferment as I am reading that the Concord grape can be a bit acidic as well. I have the juice is 1 gallon size freezer bags as well as 1 gallon size freezer bags of seeds and skins. Any recommendation as to what percentage of each to add in? Lets say I would like to ferment a six gallon size batch.
Thanks for the help!


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## BernardSmith (Oct 1, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> @BernardSmith
> It was nice to see your comment about the quality of wine fermented from juice, without the seeds and skins. I was debating this very subject when I was squeezing some recently acquired Concord grapes into juice. I planned to freeze them as my garden harvesting didn't allow me the time to start the fermentation process. When I did this I was wondering what the ratio of juice to normal "pounds of fruit" would be. I also was wondering if it was a good idea to not ferment the skins and seeds. With this is mind I did save the skins and seeds in freezer bags. I was thinking that I might ferment the juice with the skins & seeds in a fruit bag in the fermenter for a shorter amount of time than the full ferment as I am reading that the Concord grape can be a bit acidic as well. I have the juice is 1 gallon size freezer bags as well as 1 gallon size freezer bags of seeds and skins. Any recommendation as to what percentage of each to add in? Lets say I would like to ferment a six gallon size batch.
> Thanks for the help!


I know nothing about concord grape wine - I dislike the favor of that grape - and others with far more experience than I may have a different position, but I would argue that the amount of skins (and seeds) you use should be the amount of skins and flesh and seeds that came from the grapes. That is what anyone crushing and fermenting grapes would do with every variety of grape wine that I have some familiarity with. You want the flavors and the color that the skins provide and the tannins that they and the seeds offer. I would assume two weeks maceration if the wine is not white. If white, virtually no skins and no maceration time...


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## winemaker81 (Oct 2, 2022)

SeniorHobby said:


> I was thinking that I might ferment the juice with the skins & seeds in a fruit bag in the fermenter for a shorter amount of time than the full ferment as I am reading that the Concord grape can be a bit acidic as well.


The acid is going to come with the juice -- you'll get color, body, and tannin from the skin and seeds. Let those the the factors in limiting how much skin time you give the wine.



BernardSmith said:


> 1. Country wines don't really age as well as red grape wines and I think that that is because they may not be able to inhibit oxidation in as robust a way as red grape wines given the lack of tannins that are inherent to the fruits used.


Looking back through my fruit wine notes, I noticed that a lot of recipes call for the addition of powdered tannin. I used plain 'ole "tannin" as that was what was available at the time, but especially for light colored fruit, the addition of tannin powdered designed for white wine will probably produce a good result.


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## SeniorHobby (Oct 2, 2022)

BernardSmith said:


> I know nothing about concord grape wine - I dislike the favor of that grape - and others with far more experience than I may have a different position, but I would argue that the amount of skins (and seeds) you use should be the amount of skins and flesh and seeds that came from the grapes. That is what anyone crushing and fermenting grapes would do with every variety of grape wine that I have some familiarity with. You want the flavors and the color that the skins provide and the tannins that they and the seeds offer. I would assume two weeks maceration if the wine is not white. If white, virtually no skins and no maceration time...





BernardSmith said:


> I know nothing about concord grape wine - I dislike the favor of that grape - and others with far more experience than I may have a different position, but I would argue that the amount of skins (and seeds) you use should be the amount of skins and flesh and seeds that came from the grapes. That is what anyone crushing and fermenting grapes would do with every variety of grape wine that I have some familiarity with. You want the flavors and the color that the skins provide and the tannins that they and the seeds offer. I would assume two weeks maceration if the wine is not white. If white, virtually no skins and no maceration time...


Thanks Bernard, I am thankful that I save the skins and seeds, kind of sorry that I went through all the hard work of the squeezing! Lesson learned.


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## SeniorHobby (Oct 2, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> The acid is going to come with the juice -- you'll get color, body, and tannin from the skin and seeds. Let those the the factors in limiting how much skin time you give the wine.
> 
> 
> Looking back through my fruit wine notes, I noticed that a lot of recipes call for the addition of powdered tannin. I used plain 'ole "tannin" as that was what was available at the time, but especially for light colored fruit, the addition of tannin powdered designed for white wine will probably produce a good result.


Thanks winemaker81!, I will be fermenting with the skins and seeds. As far as the tannin, I have read that crab apple has quite a bit of tannin, I came into a nice amount of them this fall so I might just add that to pick up the tannin. I have read that you can either ferment with the grape or blend later. I am leaning toward the latter as then I have a batch to blend with other wines as well.


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