# Vineyard From the Beginning- Grapeman



## grapeman

I am beginning a new thread to sort of document planting a new vineyard from beginning forward. The methods I use here are not standard issue, but are using methods I have gleaned from my 45 years of farming, ag college and working in research trials, including my own. Don't expect it to begin all inclusive, but it will build upon itself as time goes on.


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## grapeman

Starting off the vineyard, I have some land lined up for the vineyard and I will get into that in more detail with time as I prepare to plant.

For now, I need vines. Over time and experience I have decided what vines I want to include in this vineyard expansion. Next step is getting the vines. One of the quickest and easiest methods for that is to purchase them as I have always done in the past, although not exclusively. Some good sources in the eastern US are Double A Vineyards, Grafted Grapevine, and Northeastern Vine Supply. There are many more around the country, but these are the three main sources I have used.

Since I am doing this expansion on the cheap, I am going for a way to get quick vines, easily planted and the method I use will minimize time to maintain them. To that end I am starting my own vine fron 2 bud cuttings, not the normal 3 or 4. I have experimented with this process before and it works well to provide short compact vines quickly. Normally you cut a piece of the vine you want from last years growth using cuttings about a quarter inch or a bit less in size with 3 or 4 good buds on it. Make your bottom cut just below the bud flat, and make the upper cut an inch or so above the 3rd or 4th bud on a slant. That allows you to easily tell what is up and down as that is very important. The bottom cut sort of splits the bark just a bit around the bud and encourages callousing.

Here is a picture of a normal cutting. And a 2 bud cutting


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## grapeman

Next up I have to callous the cuttings. I put them in some sort of container and fill with a few inches of moist soil mix. I place that on a heat mat to provide constant heat to the bottom and place it in a cool room. You want the heat to form the callous but not enough heat in the room to break dormancy too quickly. 80 degrees on the bottom and about 55-60 on top is good. I sometimes use a grape lug as it works well for a couple hundred at a time. 

Here is a heat mat and the grape lug with cuttings in it. Note here they are 2 bud cuttings since that is what I will be using.


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## grapeman

It takes about a week or two for the callouses to form. The roots form from those callous sites. Here are a couple pictures showing a callous (white bumpy area near the bottom bud) and then a shot of newly forming roots.


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## grapeman

Next I take the plug trays and fill them with the same potting mix. I then shove the calloused cuttings in them to fill. I am using a standard flat size that holds 38 cuttings. These are a bit over 2 inches deep and form a root plug.
First an empty tray and then a row of filled trays without any buds pushing yet.


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## grapeman

Next time I will post some of the cuttings beginning to open buds. Hope you guys find this informational and entertaining. Feel free to post comments and questions and this can become a tutorial thread as such. In a few years it will have a finished vineyard site of almost 4 acres.


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## TJsBasement

Thanks, this will be a super informative thread. 
Will you be growing rootstock or self root.


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## ibglowin

Fantastic start to an informative thread! Can't wait to see this thing develop. 

Were the cuttings dipped in a rooting hormone of sorts prior to being placed in the soil?


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## grapeman

TJsBasement said:


> Thanks, this will be a super informative thread.
> Will you be growing rootstock or self root.


 
They are all self rooted. Grafting would be another possibility for showing at a later date.


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## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Fantastic start to an informative thread! Can't wait to see this thing develop.
> 
> Were the cuttings dipped in a rooting hormone of sorts prior to being placed in the soil?


 
I have tried it with and without rooting hormone and see no real difference. Hormone doesn't hurt, but I'm not convinced it helps much.


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## ibglowin

I thought that stuff was like a miracle in a bottle. I think you just have a VERY green thumb!


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## GreginND

Very informative. Since I have never grown a grape, or driven a tractor or done anything outside my small little city lot before (I have manhandled a tiller), I am trying to absorb as much information as possible. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. MUCH appreciated.

Are you going to be showing how you prep the land, plant the vines and build your trellis? Looking forward to it.


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## grapeman

You will be seeing just about every operation I use for the vineyard as long as I have a working camera. Some of the stuff isn't the IDEAL way of doing things, but as time goes on you can judge for yourselves if it is working or not. It will be a long work in progress just like my other thread which grew to 200 pages of posts with time. That was a piecemeal operation and this one I have a plan in mind to implement so I thought it helpful to split it off.


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## M1wino

Great info this will be a big help!


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## Runningwolf

Rich this is a great start to an awesome thread. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.


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## Deezil

Appreciate you taking the time to put this thread together, cant wait to see how it progresses... Feeling fortunate to watch this venture from the beginning


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## OilnH2O

Good idea, Rich! There are so many little gems of info in your other thread -- I can see that you can organize this from the first rather than the way we've all done it before where it is "...and then I did this... and then I did that... and then..." 
Thanks again for all your efforts to help the rest of us out here!


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## Duster

as always Rich, very helpful. Thank you


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## mwestern

Rich,When we started our little vineyard I read someplace you should plant your rows from east to west have you heard this before ? Also how do you intend to water your rows ? Looking forward to your progress. We only have 32 plants right now maybe more when I retire. Good luck..... Mike


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## grapeman

The ole East/West, North/South debate will go on forever. I am of the camp that I plant whatever direction makes the most sense for the plot. A lot depends on the latitude where you are located. Where I am at, the vines get about the same amount of sun either orientation. The new vineyard will be running east/west.


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## rob

Great thread Rich

I have a friend that started an entire 800 plant vineyard from cuttings that he picked up at a commercial vineyard. You might be surprised how many vineyards will let you take cuttings after they prune.


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## winemaker_3352

Thanks Rich!!

This is very informative for folks wanted to start a vineyard.

I know I will revert back to this someday when I plan mine....


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## BARBQ

rob said:


> Great thread Rich
> 
> I have a friend that started an entire 800 plant vineyard from cuttings that he picked up at a commercial vineyard. You might be surprised how many vineyards will let you take cuttings after they prune.


 
alot of people in texas have been doing this too. It seems like most of the blanc du bois can be traced back to one person bringing them from florida originally.


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## mwestern

We live somewhat close to Hermann and Augusta,Mo where alot of Mo,s wine are produced and these guys seem to be pretty tight lipped about their plants and anything else I've questioned the workers about ??? Never tried to get clippings but will next trip there.. Have you talked to anyone there about this subject Jon since you live in St.Louis ? Mike PS. Happy Easter All !! ;-)


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## winemaker_3352

mwestern said:


> We live somewhat close to Hermann and Augusta,Mo where alot of Mo,s wine are produced and these guys seem to be pretty tight lipped about their plants and anything else I've questioned the workers about ??? Never tried to get clippings but will next trip there.. Have you talked to anyone there about this subject Jon since you live in St.Louis ? Mike PS. Happy Easter All !! ;-)




No I haven't - the vineyard i go to sells their cuttings pretty cheap. They sell their grapes $.50 per # as well.

http://www.stfrancoisvineyard.com/

As far as the Herman area - I don't venture out that far too often - that is close to a 2 hour drive for me one way...


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## mwestern

Thanks Jon,We may make them a day trip sometime I printed off their catalog.The thought of .50# for grapes will definitely get us to check them out.Mike


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## winemaker_3352

mwestern said:


> Thanks Jon,We may make them a day trip sometime I printed off their catalog.The thought of .50# for grapes will definitely get us to check them out.Mike



Yeah - like most things - it will depend on quantity he has. Last year the heat and birds took some out.


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## mwestern

Yeah a friend of ours owns Yellow House Winery in Defiance,Mo which we highly recommend said the birds where so bad he had no FREE grapes for his customers to pick last season. We only have about 3 doz vines here at the house but no bird problems yet.... Mike


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## grapeman

I thought I would update the rooting process of the new vines. It has been cold the last couple of weeks so I have held off budbreak on the cuttings. They are swollen now and ready to pop in a few days with the expected warm sunny days expected now. First here is a picture of when I first set the cuttings in the trays after callousing. Then a second picture showing how the roots are growing.


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## robie

Do you generally have a good success rate concerning the percentage that actually do root?
Is it a different success rate from one varietal to another?


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## grapeman

It does vary a bit from variety to variety. Some certainly root more easily at at a higher percentage. There is no set percentage rate of rooting. It can vary depending on variety, how well the wood hardened off the previous year, any cold damage, rooting material used, and adequate callousing prior to sticking in the soil.


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## Ernest T Bass

Could you give us beginners more information on "when, where and how" on Bud Breaking and Adequate Callousing. I haven't done either and now afraid that my cuttings won't develope roots. Thanks for this great forum, we love it.
Semper Fi


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## grapeman

Grape hardwood cuttings need to develop callouses to form the roots from. It takes 10-14 days for them to form callouses at about 80 degrees F, more at lower temperatures. It is therefore advantageous to pre-callous them on some sort of heat source for a couple weeks prior to sticking them in the soil or pots. You can do it in the field if you can hold the buds from opening long enough. If the soil has warmed to 75 or so, you can set them right in the field and most should root. If the buds are opening when you plant them, then they are likely to open up the buds and start to form shoots before the cutting has any roots to take up water. What typically happens is the cutting begins to grow and people get excited. Then after a few days and the shoot growing a few inches and opening leaves, they die of thirst. This happens suddenly and the vine collapses.

What is desireable is to keep the tops cool while placing them on a heat mat in a few inches of warm soil. That forms the callouses and the small roots like I showed in the last picture. That way as the buds open, the roots can feed the newly formed shoots and the vine will sucessfully grow.

I will post some follow up pictures in a few days as it is warm enough that some of the cuttings are opening buds now and have roots formed.


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## grapeman

As promised, here is a picture a couple days later where the buds have started to open. The roots on a few have formed enough I can pull the plug out and get the soil with it.


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## PCharles

Grapeman, I'm sure enjoying this tread you started. I just took a moment to visit you web page. I was looking at some photos from your 2008 vineyard photos. Please forgive me for being a disruptive student by jumping ahead to another subject. 

I noticed in the photo that you didn't have any grass growing between your rows. Recently I heard some vineyard owners discussing the importance of having the right kind of growth between rows to aid in moisture control. They were also discussing grass and weed control below the vines. The most supported method discussed there was the use of landscape fabric directly below the vines. 

Again, it was the photo from your sight that motivated me to bring this up. Do you usually suppress grass between rows? 

Thanks, PCharles


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## grapeman

The old site is on pure sand so the top foot can get dry in the summer heat. This is non-irrigated, so I kept the vineyard floor clean in the formative years. Under the rows was done with a hand hoe and between them with a small harrow. After those pictures, I seeded the middles and mow them. You can control excessivemoisture that way and draw off a bit of vigor if needed.

This new vineyard is on a much different soil and will receive completely different methods. I went over to it just last evening and will be killing the sod soon. I think I will plow it and till smooth. I had been considering just tilling wide enough for the rows, but it is a bit rough for mowing in the future. By killing the sod, I can even it out and seed it to the grass of my choice. There is also some horsetail that needs to be thinned out a bit. It should be a great vineyard site, but the very east side has some moisture in it - not bad, but it could be a bit wet in a wet year. The nice thing is I can place a drain tile at that end of the field to take care of it if needed. The land is rated as Prime Farmland and is a nice loam with good drainage.

The field is right next to my old favorite field on our farm for raising vegetables. Took many tons of tomatoes and corn, beans, cukes, etc off that field over the years.


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## winemaker_3352

Sounds like you have a great setup with land there.

Wish i had that kind of land to work with...


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## GreginND

Richard, could you give us an idea about how long one should plan to prepare a site for planting? For example, I will probably take possession of my new property in a couple of weeks. I thought about planting some vines this year (I have a source for some), but the more I think about it, the more I want to make sure the site is prepped well. I am thinking to kill off the site with roundup early, plow and till it well, seed it with a cover grass and install my trellis this year. Then it would be ready for planting first thing next spring. Pros and cons? I'm just looking for advice on how to approach it.


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## grapeman

Greg what you are describing is the best route to go. Also get a soil test so you can make any needed adjustments to the soil. I'm not a big fan of installing the trellis first. If you do that, the wires are in the way for planting and force you to do it by hand. I prefer to lay out the rows with marking flags. If I use an auger, I mark out with flags to get the rows straight and put an orange x where each vine will go. That ensures straight rows and properly spaced vines. Then after they are in, I install the trellis sometime within the next few months.

Don't look at everything I do as textbook way to do it. I tend to bend the rules and hope for the best (using sound logic and aquired knowledge). I will be planting this site this year in a hurry without a lot of prep. I do this because I know the field and it's history. I am also using untraditional planting methods as you will see in the next couple months.


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## GreginND

Thanks. Yes! A soil test is number one on my list. Number two will be to check the water quality. I have a rural water system to the house and a well for irrigation.

My thought was to put in the trellis posts first before the plants went in so that I could get bigger equipment in there to auger out holes without risking someone running over the vines. I think I will need to hire someone to come help me do that. I would probably wait to install the wires until after planting.


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## Mark64

OK, a newbie question. How many years before you get any crop? I bookmarked this article because I think this is some of the BEST reading material for professional or hobbyist like me.


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## GreginND

Welcome, Mark. Generally you may be able to get some harvest in the third year but it will likely be a small harvest. Four to five years is a better bet on when you can expect to start reaping your rewards.


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## grapeman

The number of years to grow the vineyard until fruiting depends on a lot of facors but typically is 3 to 5 years as Greg said. On a low vigor site, figure 4-5 years. On a higher vigor site you can take at least a partial crop after 3 years.

I'm glad you find this useful. That's why I am putting it together.


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## fivebk

Rich, 

I like this thread. I think it's going to give alot of people a serious insight into what it takes to start a vineyard!!! I didn't even know you were starting a second vineyard!!!

Did you get hit with any frost? We had some pretty cold days & some patchy frost, but luck was on my side and had no frost out at the farm. Sorry for being a little off the subject.

BOB


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## mwestern

*I picked most of the grape clusters off our young grape plants until the third season,a large grower told me it made for stronger plants and larger yeilds.Just concentrated on pruning and training the plants to the wire trellis we built.Bob we got some burnt leaves on the plant tops from the frost last week here in Mo. but not too bad. Mike*


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## grapeman

Hey Bob. This will actually be the third vineyard. The second one doesn't get much attention here because it is in a different part of the farms so doesn't get a lot of pictures. It is an extremely well drained site, so vigor is much less. Going into the fourth year and some aren't even to the top wire yet. I'm hoping for more concentrated flavors on that site. It is around an acre in size.

mwestern you did the right thing removing the clusters early on.


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## grapeman

Here are a couple pictures of the second vineyard site before planting














And here is a picture of it a couple months later without the trellis yet.


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## TrapperPete

grapeman said:


> I am beginning a new thread to sort of document planting a new vineyard from beginning forward. The methods I use here are not standard issue, but are using methods I have gleaned from my 45 years of farming, ag college and working in research trials, including my own. Don't expect it to begin all inclusive, but it will build upon itself as time goes on.



Grapeman, I live in northwest Michigan but inland just enough from Lake Michigan where it gets a little colder in the winter time (coldest I've seen in 12 years was -29f) but warmer in early spring and summer. I have several vines of Concord and Niagara that seem to thrive and produce good fruit although the surrounding trees are providing more and more shade. I have open fields though and have ordered Marquette vines from NE Vine Supply to really get a vineyard started. I've attended several classes now and the theme seems to be to plant the vines closer to each other (4-5ft appart). I'm struggling to decide how far appart to put the vines and how wide to make the rows? My property slopes to the south and west and is rectangular in shape so it would be best to allign the rows north-south or east west so I'm also wrestling with that! Last but not least is the size of hole to make for the vines to spread the roots. I'm not new to growing things but I really want to do the best job possible starting out. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## grapeman

Welcome TrapperPete!

Marquette is a good choice for you there. It should do great for you.
You don't mention your soil type or fertility so it is hard to tell you what spacing to plant. I can tell you Marquette is very vigorous. Around here if we planted it 4-5 feet apart it would be an overgrown jungle in no time. For Marquette, rows 8-10 feet apart work if you have to use a tractor, a bit closer if you use a lawnmower. In row spacing would be 6-7 feet minimum and and 8-10 feet apart better. Don't plant close just so you can brag about having twice as many vines- you will pay for it in a lot of extra work. Part of the spacing can be determined by the training system used for the trellis. You can help tame the vigor by using a split canopy system such as GDC or Scott Henry. Check out my other huge thread http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/champlain-valley-my-vineyard-19820/
for more information on all these things. It is about 200 pages of posts long, but has a ton of information in it.

As I develop this current thread, I am using information I have gathered through trial and error and studying to put in this current vineyard.

Slope and row orientation I believe in considering the size of the lot, shading and slope to choose the row orientation. In your latitude, it isn't extremely important. I would opt for fewer longer rows and go that way.

Hole should be large enough to be able to sprea the roots out at leas some. Obiously if you have 3 foot roots you don't want to dig 6 foot wide holes! Try for at least a foot wide and around 10-12 inches deep for rooted vines. Potted vines need smaller holes.

Good luck with it and be sure to start your own thread of posts.


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## Ernest T Bass

Great thread, I love it. I think it would be good if this Thread had it's own
Heading or Title or what ever you call it, like the beginners forum or the chit-chat. 
Semper Fi


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## grapeman

It has been a week since I posted the picture of the cutting progress. I have them from just stuck in the soil to callous to ones that have opened up small leaves and rooted a bit. Here are some pictures to show their progress. It may be hard for some to believe these will ever produce grapes.


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## ibglowin

Looks like lots of healthy little babies! Good job for sure.


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## GreginND

grapeman said:


> It may be hard for some to believe these will ever produce grapes.



Not hard at all. They look really healthy!


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## saddlebronze

The cuttings are looking good Grapeman. What temp are they at?


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## TrapperPete

*Marquette*



saddlebronze said:


> The cuttings are looking good Grapeman. What temp are they at?



Saddlebronze, I have Marquette's showing up in a few weeks and still trying to decide on vine spacing. They list the vine medium vigor and in northern Michigan I'm thinking that I might be better off putting them closer together say 6ft. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

TrapperPete


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## grapeman

saddlebronze the little cuttings are in a very small greenhouse shelter with just a small heater to keep it from freezing. Ideally I would keep it at 78-80 degrees, but some days it is 40 something and sunny days can get into the 90s.

TrapperPete that spacing will work alright for them and it could even go to 8 to 10 feet and fill the space fine. Here the vigor is closer to very vigorous and is comparable to Frontenac in vigor. This new planting will likely be spaced about 6 feet in row.


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## Neviawen

This thread is awesome! It makes me want to start my own vineyard in my backyard. Thanks for all the great information and taking the time out of your day to share it with all of us!


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## saddlebronze

Trapper, I went with 5 foot spacing since I have a small plot and it will all be hand tilled. If I had more space I would have spread them out, but I needed to get 7 varieties into a 35 by 45 plot.


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## GreginND

For your Mod-GDC, what are you using for your row spacing? Is 10 feet enough?


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## grapeman

10 feet is enough for the way I have the braces made. I am actually using it at 9 feet because that is what the other 3 systems use in the trial and I wanted them all spaced the same distance.


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## grapeman

I expect to get my soil test results back soon. I will also be tilling up the field to plant the vines in. I will make any needed fertility adjustments at that time, but I really don't expect to need any. The field is considered Prime farmland around here as rated. I will be using glyphosate to kill the perennial weeds and grasses, tilling it and reseeding the alleys after planting the vines. Soon you will be seeing pictures of that. Gosh this post moves almost as slow as paint drying- Oh wait! That's faster.


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## grapeman

It is time for the weekly vine update. They continue to grow but a bit slowly with cooler weather and a few freezing nights. For a size reference the circle plugs are 2.5 inches across. Most of the cuttings now have some growth. A couple varieties are a bit behind in the corners of the little greenhouse, but should catch up.


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## ibglowin

Looks like a bunch of happy little soldiers!


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## OilnH2O

*HUT - two - three - four!!! *


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## grapeman

Another hicup in the little greenhouse. We have had three days now of intense sunshine. The first day it was very cool in the morning and a bit overcast so I left the door shut and was to open it at noon. I forgot and did not discover my mistake until almost 5PM. It probably got to 130 degrees in there. You can imagine newly rooted cuttings did not like that temperature. I am sure a few of them might not make it, but overall they don't look too bad- just some crispy leaves here and there. I have been watching it like a hawk since then.

I sprayed the 4 acre field this AM with grass killer. I will let that set now for a week to ten days and then plow it and work it up. Man, what a view from there on top of the hill. It slopes off to the south and east and has views of the Green Mountains of Vermont in the distance. It is going to look great from a semi-major state highway sloping up the hill. I could run the rows either direction, but I am planting up and down the hill for visual effect. After I work the field up I will post a picture of it.

When planning a vineyard, take the views to and from it into account. My original vineyard is hidden from view in the pine trees on a back road hence the name Hid-In-Pines Vineyard. Nobody knows it is there and it is hard to get them to come. Put a vineyard where it shows up and you will get more interest and visitors. I know a couple vineyards put in after mine that stand out on a major road and everybody asks me if I know those people. If they can see it, they will ask about it.


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## ibglowin

Yikes! Sounds like you dodged a bullet. Location, location, location as they say right?


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## TJsBasement

So thats your trick to harden them off, I see. 

Could I offer the suggestion of a solar powered thermo controlled attic fan.


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## grapeman

TJsBasement said:


> So thats your trick to harden them off, I see.
> 
> Could I offer the suggestion of a solar powered thermo controlled attic fan.


 

That would work, but that would be cheating!


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## Corley5

Great thread :> We're in Northern Lower Michigan and are in our second year of planting. We put in 800 last year. 200 each of Kay Gray, Marquette, Valiant and Elvira. This spring we put in 200 each of Frontenac, Frontenac Gris, Brianna and Louise Swenson. I've got about 250 cuttings rooting from this spring's pruning of last year's vines. Next year we're planning 400 Marquettes and 400 LaCrescents. We're members of SAGGA, Straits Area Grape Grower's Association.


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## grapeman

Welcome Corley5. Lots of great varieties there.


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## tatud4life

I've never thought of taking the cuttings from pruning times and trying to get them to root. I will have to give that a go this year maybe. Any suggestions for callousing if I do not have access to a heat mat? We are planning a greenhouse in the back yard in a couple of years though.


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## grapeman

Any warm surface about 80-90F will work. I have used the top of a furnace before in the winter when it runs a lot. Some use the top of a refrigerator where it is warm. Heat mats work good and just get one the size you need.


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## tatud4life

Ok. Thanks grapeman!!


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## grapeman

I got back the resulkts for the soil test I took for the new vineyard.
pH 5.9 -ideal for Hybrids is 5.8-6.0 so it is right on. They say I could add 1 ton of lime per acre, but I am leaving it alone.
N- good and Organic matter 3.8% Could add a bit of N preplowing to help as the sod decomposes. I opt not to add it as I don't want to force the vines too fast.
P - 14 lbs/acre - in the high range so none needed.
K-142 pounds per acre - in the medium range, so I could add some 
Calcium - 2076 - is high so none needed.
Magnesium- 139- in optimal range.

The minor nutrients are all adequate, but I will take petiole samples and ammend as needed as a foliar spray.

The grasses and perennials are dying back good so when the weather is nice in a few days, it will get turned under.


The vines are growing like weeds now so I will post pictures when I get a chance to take some.


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## GreginND

How did you collect your soil samples? I'm looking for information on how many samples to take, how deep, density of sampling, do you mix them all together, size of each sample, etc.


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## grapeman

Contact your local Cooperative Extension Agency and they can give you a sample box or bag to submit for sampling with instructions on how to do it. Different labs have slightly different procedures for sample collection. Feed stores and fertilizer sales outlets used to provide samples for free, but here we no longer have those services. If I had the proper reagents, I could do my own testing as I have a degree in Soil Science. 

Basically you can take surface tests of 1-8 inches and subsoil samples of 8-24 inches. There are auger tools you can use for it, but agian your extension agent can tell you how to do it. You take around 10-20 small samples in a zigzag pattern for the field and mix them. For a very small sample take several and mix.


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## grapeman

Here are the pictures I took. They aren't super clear because of the humidity today. The lens kept fogging up. I even put one in there to show they had viable bloom buds. I have to get rid of hundreds of them when they get open and clear of the other growth. The first picture is taken in the Amazon. LOL


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## tchuklobrau

so on the last pic the lil flowerish thing is the bloom bud? How long do you pinchthose off for? first couple years? Also while I understand harvest varies, if I have an area where I can plant 6-7 vines is it conceviable to get enough to make 1-2 5g batches of wine?


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## grapeman

Yes that is the flower cluster just beginning to open. All blossoms should be pinched off for at least 2 years and maybe 3. You can then begin to leave some until you get a full crop in about 5 years.
6-7 vines would give about 1 carboy full of finished wine. You could get 2 if you are lucky and diligent.


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## robie

Life happening!!! Those photos and the results are really great.


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## Mark64

And what happens if you leave them on like I did for first 3 yrs?


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## grapeman

Mark64 said:


> And what happens if you leave them on like I did for first 3 yrs?


 

You stunt the vine some from developing a really good root system.


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## TrapperPete

*Vine Spacing*



Corley5 said:


> Great thread :> We're in Northern Lower Michigan and are in our second year of planting. We put in 800 last year. 200 each of Kay Gray, Marquette, Valiant and Elvira. This spring we put in 200 each of Frontenac, Frontenac Gris, Brianna and Louise Swenson. I've got about 250 cuttings rooting from this spring's pruning of last year's vines. Next year we're planning 400 Marquettes and 400 LaCrescents. We're members of SAGGA, Straits Area Grape Grower's Association.



Corley5,

Would you mind sharing your vine and row spacing? Also, would it be possible to see your vineyard?

Thanks, Trapper Pete


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## Corley5

My rows are 10' OC and my vines are spaced 6' with line posts at 18'. I'm six miles west of Wolverine on the Wolverine/Mitchell Rd or 18 miles east of Petoskey on the same rd. I'm usually around evenings


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## grapeman

It has been a while since I posted some pictures. I have sprayed the field to kill the grass and then last weekend I plowed the field up. There was one spot that was a bit wet so it didn't roll over good. I have harrowed it a few times now to work it up and level it out. I will probably do it once or twice and then set the plastic where the rows will be. 

Here are some pictures of the site and then some of the wildlife on the farm- beef cows and insect control AKA- Gulls from the Lake Champlain that come in to feed.

Normally the Green Mountains of Vermont show over the houses and barn, but it was a bit hazy and overcast today. The Adirondacks show to the west some on clear days. I will trim some trees around the edges to get rid of a little shade. There will be a road around the vineyard mostly where the shade hits.


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## Corley5

Looks great!! What do have for a tractor?


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## GreginND

That is looking great. I know you are planning on planting this year. Making good progress.

I need to get moving on my vineyard. I will be planting no sooner than next year. My plan is to kill off the weeds and grass, break up the ground like you have done and then plant a cover of low growing grass. Next year I will till the rows for the vines through the ground cover. My thinking is that if I get a good ground cover established first it will help down the road with weeds, etc. Does that make any sense? Should I do it differently? Suggestions for grass to plant?

My area is not as big as yours. But it is at least a couple of acres that eventually will be planted. I want to prepare it all now. But I don't have any equipment yet. My farm ignorance is showing here. What kind of tractor, equipment would I need? This year I was hoping to borrow or rent equipment, or even hire someone to break up and level the land for me.

Finally, Plastic for the rows? Can you elaborate? This is to keep down weeds?

Thanks.


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## grapeman

Corley5 it is an IH584 I have had for years. It is a bit wider than I would like and eventually I will get about a 35 HP narrow tractor. 

Greg if you can hire the tillage done then you can get a nice compact tractor to fit the rows easier. I was considering just tilling the rows this year and leaving the old pasture, but it was pretty unlevel from the beef cows punching it up previously. The plastic is 4 foot plastic mulch which leaves about 3 feet uncovere that will give a nice warm bed to grow the roots quicker and keep weeds down the first year. There are very few sprays that can be used the year of establishment, and I don't have time to hand hoe all of it this year. The vines will be set hopefully within two weeks using our water wheel transplanter used for vegetables on the farm. 

Again, this is a very unconventional way of planting a vineyard and this is sort of a trial run of some basic concepts I have developed over the years. I have tried all of them independently, but never as a whole package. Time will tell how well it will work. I wish I had more vines started because I know some will not make it to planting, but I ran out of greenhouse space. I only have a tiny 8x12 foot greenhouse where my brother has over a half acre in 13 greenhouses. Too bad they have been overflowing with flowers and veggie plants. I may need to put up a larger one next time.


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## mwestern

Looks very nice,How many plants/rows do you plan to get in your space ? It really makes our attempt here in Mo. look really small,but I'm hoping to maybe expand in 21 months when I'm finally retired !! ;-) We mowed between our rows with a 60" Cub Cadet for 3 yrs but i got tired of weeding so we weed barriered the whole thing and put down 16 yards of oak mulch.We have 5 -60' rows with buried 5/8" soaker hose and it's working very good so far.We enjoy watching your progress,Good luck. Mike 

6-gals homemade peach
6-gals angel blanco
6-gals liebraumilch
1-gal sweet cherry
6-gal acai raspberry cabernet sauvignon
6-gal Seville Orange sangria


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## Ernest T Bass

Beautiful pictures, I always pictured New York like what I see on television, nothing but large buildings, taxi cabs and black top. I 
didn't realize you had such beautiful farm land. Looks like New York 
isn't as bad as I figured. Beautiful, thanks for the pictures.
Semper Fi


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## grapeman

I'm getting ahead of myself here but since you asked......

There will be 21 rows 10 feet apart x 2. By this, I mean the field is almost 800 feet long so it would be over 700 feet long so I am splittling it in two. There will be a road up the middle also for better access plus one between the rows at about the 350-400 foot mark. There will be four blocks altogether. The one block will be shaped with an angle out of it at the back so it will be sort of a triangle. The others will each have 10 or 11 rows in it with about 55-60 vines each. The whole thing will be around 2000 vines. My other much larger thread covers from initial planting up through our small commercial vineyard.
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/champlain-valley-my-vineyard-19820/


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## grapeman

Bud, 99% of New York is rural. The Adirondack Park which is a State Park is something like 2.5 million acres of mixed rural farms and heavily wooded mountain forests. Clinton County where I live is much like rural Vermont which shares Lake Champlain with NY.


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## grapeman

Here are a couple pictures of the larger vines. I will be putting them outside to harden off soon but we may get severe storms today and tomorrow so I will wait until the chances of bad weather pass.

For those who didn't look yesterday, there are various pictures of the new sit on the previous page.


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## ibglowin

Looks like it coming along nicely Rich. Well done!


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## stacilynn18

*Dear Mr. Grapeman*



grapeman said:


> Next I take the plug trays and fill them with the same potting mix. I then shove the calloused cuttings in them to fill. I am using a standard flat size that holds 38 cuttings. These are a bit over 2 inches deep and form a root plug.
> First an empty tray and then a row of filled trays without any buds pushing yet.


 
I truly appreciate your advice as I am starting the process from a grape vine that is over 100 yrs old. Research tells me that at that age it is difficult to transplant. I have had great success with my shoots and roots in water but am now concerned that moving them to soil will be a problem. I read that leaving them in water will damage the grape for wine making. Would love to have someone to communicate with during this large endeavor. Please help. Am I off to a good start?


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## grapeman

If you have roots on some cuttings, you can plant them either in pots or outside depending on how hot it is. Wherever you read that leaving them in water will damage them for making wine out of, is absolutely incorrect. That will have no effect on future wine, only the health of the cutting. If you rooted them in water and they rooted, it worked. 

Welcome to the forum.


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## stacilynn18

*Mr Grapeman,*

Thank you for your quick response. Such encouraging news. I am sooo excited. Thanks again!


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## downunder

stacilynn18 said:


> I truly appreciate your advice as I am starting the process from a grape vine that is over 100 yrs old. Research tells me that at that age it is difficult to transplant. I have had great success with my shoots and roots in water but am now concerned that moving them to soil will be a problem. I read that leaving them in water will damage the grape for wine making. Would love to have someone to communicate with during this large endeavor. Please help. Am I off to a good start?



Have been following this thread with lots of interest. In Australia we do things a little differently (well a lot differently really) but not here to disrupt the flow of the thread.
Just wanted to make the point that 50 or 100 year old wines are easy to transplant if you do the right thing.
Have containers filled with water ready to take the vines (I use 700 ltr grape bins).
Wrap a strap around the trunk of the vine.
Use a forklift/tractor to pull the vine out of the ground. Yes you will break roots off and only get a small root ball but that's ok.
Trim the arms back to 1 or 2 spurs on each arm.
Have the hole ready to take the vine. Have the fertilizer etc already in it.
Trim the roots to fit the hole. (on the big roots I use pruning paint over the big cuts and sprinkle rooting hormone on them.)
Plant the vine. Keep in wet during the first year growing cycle.. By the second year you are almost in full production.
Did this with 50 year old grenache. Moved 100 vines.....lost one.

Bob


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## echoloc8

Hey all, new forum member with only a few kit wines under my belt, but sharp curiosity about vineyard planting. My father-in-law has 15 acres or so that's currently growing Christmas trees, but someday I expect my wife to inherit, and he's already said I can plant a few vines as an experiment this year. 

I'm loving this thread, and it's building my enthusiasm! Thanks, Rich, for the effort!

-Rich


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## grapeman

downunder said:


> Have been following this thread with lots of interest. In Australia we do things a little differently (well a lot differently really) but not here to disrupt the flow of the thread.
> Just wanted to make the point that 50 or 100 year old wines are easy to transplant if you do the right thing.
> Have containers filled with water ready to take the vines (I use 700 ltr grape bins).
> Wrap a strap around the trunk of the vine.
> Use a forklift/tractor to pull the vine out of the ground. Yes you will break roots off and only get a small root ball but that's ok.
> Trim the arms back to 1 or 2 spurs on each arm.
> Have the hole ready to take the vine. Have the fertilizer etc already in it.
> Trim the roots to fit the hole. (on the big roots I use pruning paint over the big cuts and sprinkle rooting hormone on them.)
> Plant the vine. Keep in wet during the first year growing cycle.. By the second year you are almost in full production.
> Did this with 50 year old grenache. Moved 100 vines.....lost one.
> 
> Bob


 

It is always great to hear how things are done in different areas of the world. That would probably work for those 100 year old vines here, if she has a forklift available. I have tried it before with my tractor, but usually the vines break off so I don't bother with them. I find it easier just to begin over with cuttings.


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## grapeman

echoloc8 said:


> Hey all, new forum member with only a few kit wines under my belt, but sharp curiosity about vineyard planting. My father-in-law has 15 acres or so that's currently growing Christmas trees, but someday I expect my wife to inherit, and he's already said I can plant a few vines as an experiment this year.
> 
> I'm loving this thread, and it's building my enthusiasm! Thanks, Rich, for the effort!
> 
> -Rich


 

Welcome Rich! The way I am showing here is not your normal way of planting a vineyard. I am experimenting with a streamlined cheaper way of doing it and am documenting it along the way. That is half the fun of doing it.


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## grapeman

I have the new vineyard field all set to beginplanting when I feel the vines are ready- which will be very soon. To recap what has been done so far to prep the vineyard, first it was sprayed to kill the grass, then plowed and disc harrowed 5 times. Sunday I laid the plastic mulch. There were small gaps with no soilthrown on the edge. This AM the wind blew pretty good and began lifting theplastic. There were some places up to 50 feet where it came out of the soil. Ihad a helper help me to hold those spots down and throw some soil on them. Ithen adjusted the disc harrow to throw soil outward and recover the edges allthe way. 4 acres under plastic mulch in rows 10 feet apart - 21 rows 750 feetl long which will each be split in two for a total of 42 rows. It really does look pretty good. 

I will get some pictures to put up soon of it with the plastic down. I have a market to do tomorrow


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## ibglowin

Cant wait for some pics!


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## grapeman

Hopefully the vineyard planting hasn't suffered too bad of a setback. We had a pretty decent day today, and then the thunderstorms came. At least we were on the edge of the worst cell so the hail was only pea sized instead of quarter to half dollar size, but it ain't over yet. When it stops I will go out and check the vines. It is too dark to really see right now, even though it is only a bit after 6:30. I have my fingers, toes, arms and even eyes crossed hoping the little vines I set out to harden off aren't shredded too badly.


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## Deezil

Dang!

We had some hard rain here yesterday that sounded like hail, but it was rain - i went out to check on the plants & seen the rainstorm had caught a few bees off guard, had some casualties on the leaves.. Wasnt hard enough to tear the leaves though, but i bet it was close..

Hope your little guys pull through the


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## grapeman

So far they look alright. It looks like they stood the leaves straight up to miss the heavy rain and hail. Time will tell if we are out of the woods yet, so to speak.


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## grapeman

The vines came through the hail storms alright. It has warmed to the 80's again. The main vineyard is in full bloom on a lot of varieties and all seems to be doing well. I had to snuff out some rose chafers with the last spray on Tuesday.

I decided today was nice and I had no markets so we would begin to plant the Marquettes and Leon Millot for that matter. We planted around 1250-1300 in about 4 hours. We took the next step with my new planting system. We got out the Water Wheel Transplanter, filled it up with about 100 gallons of water at a time and began planting through the plastic mulch we laid last weekend. Here are mixed pictures of the process. The smaller guy is my son Rick and the other one is Keith. So without boring you all any more here are some pictures.....


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## tatud4life

That tractor is pretty cool!!! Comfort, low to the ground, and still get your vine in the ground. Nice work!!!


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## M1wino

That's awesome! Love that you have your kids involved I hope mine are interested and willing when we get to that point. Good work!


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## tatud4life

I wish all of mine were that willing to help. I would have a huge workforce. Lol. Only one wants to help and it has to fit her busy schedule of sitting I her room all day.


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## ibglowin

Now that is how you plant a mess of grape vines! Tell Rick "mangia, mangia!"


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## Runningwolf

Rich, very interesting pictures, thanks for sharing.


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## Corley5

That's a good way to do it


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## OilnH2O

Rich, it's really fun to "watch." No, amazing. Will be a great documentation of your ideas.


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## grapeman

To put the field into perspective, each Row is made up of two individual rows with a road break in the middle and the whole thing with a road the length of it all the way around and in the middle. Each one of the rows is over a football field long. It is almost 3 miles total distance to walk all rows once each.


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## Deezil

grapeman said:


> It is almost 3 miles total to walk each row once.



Definitely puts it into perspective


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## BobR

Grapeman,
I have been trying to grow Concord grapes for the past three years, but have not had much luck. Each year I get a lot of cuttings, but before I can get them out in to the ground, I lose most of them. I am in central Illinois and usually get my clippings in mid-March. I put them in peat moss in the plantable fiber/peat pots. This year I planted over 110 clippings and ended up with about 30 – 35 that I was able to plant. Is there anything that I can do to increase my success rate? I retired over a year ago and was hoping that this grape growing thing would be a good retirement hobby. Of course around here, the weather, squirrels and deer have other plans. We haven’t had a good rain since last summer. Warm winter with a couple of light snows and hardly any rain this spring. Squirrels are forever trying to dig my new plants up; in fact they did last year. This year I put mesh around the plants and have used cayenne pepper to keep them away. 

Bob


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## grapeman

Bob, sorry I took so long to respond. It has been hectic lately. 

With a variety like Concord, I think the best bet for expansion would be to just buy dormant bareroot vines. In quantities over 50, you can get them for a little over a buck a vine. They have nice root stores and get the vines off to a better star.

That being said, if you want to increase the rooting rate, make sure you callous properly before setting them in the pots. Most of them that callous will root and grow. Keep them with the root side on some 80 degree heat for two weeks and then root the ones that callous.


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## ibglowin

Sorry if this was asked/answered earlier in this thread I did some looking but didn't see any mention of how this vineyard will be watered. Do you have a drip system setup now, in the future?


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## grapeman

Mike I use the MN Watering System - AKA natural rainfall. I may regret it later, but if it is needed I will use drip which I can install later. There is a brook 20 feet away at the northwest corner of the vineyard.

One of the advantages of the black plastic mulch is it keeps the moisture in the root zone better in dry weather.


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## ibglowin

Wow, incredible to think that in some parts of the country that would actually work (as I pour water through my drip system for 45 min a day......) We are smack dab in our hottest driest part of Summer. We may hit 95 today and only about 5-8% humidity. Water disappears pretty darn fast this time of year!


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## GreginND

Now that you mention it, I don't recall ever seeing any irrigation in the fields around here. And I'm in the heart of the richest agricultural land on Earth. The only thought I've given on this for my vineyard is "I have a well if I ever need to put in drip lines."


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## grapeman

It can get hot here also- will be 95 for aq few days now and then cool to the 70's and 80's, but RH is about 40-50%. The soil also has good water holding capacity the vineyard is on, but I must say, I expect some wilting before they get the roots down far enough.


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## BobR

grapeman,

Thanks for your help! I too have enjoyed your grape growing post. A lot of simple straight to the fact inforamtion and you don't have to read a book to find it.


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## srcorndog

Quick question what type of vines are you rooting?
Second are you considering the trellis system you will be using in relation to the type vines you are rooting?
Charlie


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## grapeman

srcorndog I rooted all cold climate hybrid grape vines that I currently grow for commercial use. I am definitely taking growth habits into consideration when determining the trellis kind and training systems. I am currently performing a training system trial including some of these varieties and definitely the growth habit types. This has been a multi-year trial partially funded with a USDA NE SARE Grant. I am continuing data collection in this trial and will ultimately incorporate the system that gives the best results with these growth types. 

I will be giving a lot more information as this thread moves along. This is the initial establishment year for the vines and I will install the posts and initial wires this fall or early next spring.


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## grapeman

I have been so busy lately with everything that I haven't taken new pictures of the vineyard lately.

I stopped by today to take a look and scout for insects again. The Japanese Beetles seem to have run their course and are currently missing, yeah. I have tried to keep the rows clean between the mulch and had planned to seed by now, but we have only gotten an inch of rain in the last 30 days. I thought I could get by this year without bamboo stakes as I planned on taking off most of this years growth next spring at pruning and they would only be in the way when I set the posts. After the visit, I came home and ordered 2000 bamboo stakes for immediate placement and tying up the vines. When stood up, the vines average 5 feet high. I will try to get pictures soon.


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## ibglowin

Holy Cow! Thats fantastic growth! They sound very happy for sure!


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## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> I have been so busy lately with everything that I haven't taken new pictures of the vineyard lately.
> 
> I stopped by today to take a look and scout for insects again. The Japanese Beetles seem to have run their course and are currently missing, yeah. I have tried to keep the rows clean between the mulch and had planned to seed by now, but we have only gotten an inch of rain in the last 30 days. I thought I could get by this year without bamboo stakes as I planned on taking off most of this years growth next spring at pruning and they would only be in the way when I set the posts. After the visit, I came home and ordered 2000 bamboo stakes for immediate placement and tying up the vines. When stood up, the vines average 5 feet high. I will try to get pictures soon.



Rich,

I've noticed the same thing with the Beetles. I didn't spray and hand picked them off to die in a plastic container. Yeah, I've got plenty of time on my hands. 

My new vines are ~ 5-6' when stood up! I've watered when the moisture probe shows "dry". I'll have a hard time removing them from the Blue Growth Tubes as they look more like bushes than vines. They are Corot Noir and Frontenac.

Fortunately, I only have to install 21 stakes!

Cheers!
Bob


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## srcorndog

*blue tubes*

Great question I have blue tubes and when should you cut them loose? I live in West georgia and it want frost until late october when to cut them loose?
Charlie
I have vigerous vines and I have the watson system first year 7 feet tall.


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## grapeman

In the north, the tubes need to be removed to allow the vines to harden off before cold freezing weather sets in. it is not as important in the south where you are. You can base your decision more on pressure from deer and rabbits or spraying protection.


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## Jah_Son

Grapeman, do you ever grow on some of the cuttings in pots?

I'm trying to do that here in Florida. I started with about 100 green cuttings that grew roots under mist and I potted them up, but funguses and bugs are getting them one by one in the pots...

Any tips for growing on some of my stock in pots until the rest of the vineyard is ready to be planted?


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## grapeman

My camera has been acting up bad all summer and fall so I didn't get much for updates to the vineyard in a LONG time. Yesterday I got a few pictures with the cell phone just to have omething to update this with.We had some during the growing season on another phone, but it got dropped and run over and we can't access the pictures.

The vines grew well this summer and the Leon Millot and Marquette grew so much they tipped over into the rows before we could stake them and the crabgrass and some weeds grew in between the rows because I couldn't get throught to work them without running over the vines. We have gotten the lower half cleaned out and staked up. We are in the process of cutting cedar posts to put the trellis in this coming spring. More on that later.
So here are a few pictures- sorry they aren't great but it will give you an idea of the progress they made this year.


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## ibglowin

Looks like it was a very good 1st year for those guys. Is this piece of property connected to the original vineyard or a ways away?


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## GreginND

Phone pics or not, it looks fantastic!

I noticed you have your vineyard laid out with full length rows. Mine will be smaller but I'm still thinking about having a 10 foot lane down the middle with 100 foot rows on each side. Pros/Cons to having long rows without a middle access lane? Is it annoying to have to go all the way to the end of a row to get to another row?


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## BobR

Yeah, looks great Rich! My only question is, where do you find free time to spend on the computer?


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## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Looks like it was a very good 1st year for those guys. Is this piece of property connected to the original vineyard or a ways away?


 

This piece is connected to the east side of the farm where I am located. It is on a major state highway and wouild be a much better place for a tasting room. I over that location for a tasting room.


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## grapeman

GreginND said:


> Phone pics or not, it looks fantastic!
> 
> I noticed you have your vineyard laid out with full length rows. Mine will be smaller but I'm still thinking about having a 10 foot lane down the middle with 100 foot rows on each side. Pros/Cons to having long rows without a middle access lane? Is it annoying to have to go all the way to the end of a row to get to another row?


 
These rows are 350 feet long and I took it from the cross road that splits it from the upper half - but only 300 foot rows. I also have a wider road running up the middle of the field lenghtways. The whole field is almost 800 feet long , but I don't count the roads and turnarounds at the ends as part of the row lenght.


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## grapeman

BobR said:


> Yeah, looks great Rich! My only question is, where do you find free time to spend on the computer?


 

It has been a challenge keeping up so I can be on the computer this year. Now for a couple months I have begun my battle for my life hopefully as a cancer survivor. I have hopefully the last test Tuesday before we come up with a treatment strategey. Makes a guy want tobut I'm sure I won't be able to when I go on the chemo.


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## BobR

Well Rich, sorry to hear of your health issue. Having never met you, but from reading all of your posts, you have a real passion, not only for your grape growing and wine making, but it seems for life overall. With all that you do to help others on this site, I'm sure you have a survival mentality. My thoughts and prayers are with you and I know that we all will be waiting for the day that you can post that you have won the battle! 

Good luck and keep us posted


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## GreginND

grapeman said:


> I'm sure I won't be able to when I go on the chemo.



Depends on what the drugs are. Worth asking your oncologist about it. A healthy 4 oz a day of your Marquette would do wonders for physical and mental health.


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## blumentopferde

Hey grapeman!
Sorry for asking stupid questions, but it just came into my mind:

I noticed that you exclusively(?) plant hybrid varieties (as many users do here). This startles me as you seem to plant grapes in a commercial setting and not just for fun. In Europe (where I am from) these varieties are not being accepted, even though they have economic and ecologic advantages. No-one would ever drink a Léon Millot or a Marquette, you might use these grapes for blending in mass production at a sales price of about 1$/litre but not for serious wine making. As there are huge commercial vineyards in the US, that sell high quality wine made from traditional varieties at a cheap price, I wonder how you find a market for your wine! How do you compete with the supermarkets? Or is it different in the US? Do the new varieties have a wider acceptance there?

Apart from that: I'm terribly sorry for your diagnosis! Cancer seems to be the modern version of the plague to me... My parent generation came to an age where cancer is an issue and it is just horrible to see how many people who seemed perfectly healthy get struck by it! My father was lucky. He got away with a shorter colon. Others were less lucky, others still struggle. A friend of the family lives with the diagnosis since one year. That doesn't seem to be that much, but the doctors gave him 3 months - if he's lucky. Sounds depressing but it isn't at all, because it shows that If you have the will to live and the courage to fight, you can keep up with almost everything! So don't let this disease get you down, face it, fight it and get over it! I wish you courage and strength for this new chapter of life!


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## GreginND

I'm sure grapeman will chime in. But I think the bottom line is that vinifera cannot be grown in cold climates. The ability to compete with wines from other states is all about marketing the uniqueness of local product and creating a local tasting experience.


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## vinividivici

Geez, Rich, awfully sorry to hear of your cancer and upcoming battle.

My father-in-law had stomach cancer five years ago and had 3/4 of his stomach removed. He was then set up for chemo and radiation. After he got home, he scrubbed off the markings for the radiation therapy and refused to do both. He is now 82 and all checkups show no evidence of cancer.

I hope you have similar results and are seeing a top notch oncologist.

I had prostate cancer two years ago and fortunately didn't require the chemo regimen. So far, so good.

Wishing you the best, my friend...

Bob


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## Louie1277

Hi, I have to say I loved reading this thread ... showed me some good tips for the future and stuff. I myself have 21 plants on the side of the hill so yo could imagin how hard it must of been to keep it clean and put down the trellis... 
My plants have been in for almost 3 years and have grow really high. 

My question is what kind of fertilizer do you use or would be good for a hill that has Decomposed Granite dirt?

I am bookmarking this thread since good info is on here.


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## grapeman

I can't say what fertilizer you should use as each plot will be different. It would be best to get a soil sample done that will tell you what you have in it and what you should need. You could use a general purpose fertilizer, but it is easy to overdo it or underdo it withthe amount of fertilizer.

If you have enjoyed this thread, you might also like my other larger thread covering multiple years in the same vineyard. 
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/champlain-valley-my-vineyard-19820/


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## saddlebronze

Rich, sorry about your diagnosis. I will pray for your well being. I am 2 years out from my cancer so I am there for ya.


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## galen1

Great thread! Great pictures and step by step information. I'll be following it.


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## BobR

grapeman said:


> Next up I have to callous the cuttings. I put them in some sort of
> container and fill with a few inches of moist soil mix. I place that on a heat mat to provide
> constant heat to the bottom and place it in a cool room. You want the heat to form the callous but
> not enough heat in the room to break dormancy too quickly. 80 degrees on the bottom and about
> 55-60 on top is good. I sometimes use a grape lug as it works well for a couple hundred at a
> time.
> Here is a heat mat and the grape lug with cuttings in it. Note here they are 2 bud cuttings since
> that is what I will be using.



Rich,
I am wanting to know if it would it be possible to successfully get some cuttings to root using only what I have on hand. I have peat moss, various sizes of plantable fiber/peat pots and a couple of small heat mats. I want to start about 50 clippings, so this will not be a big operation like what you used to, but in the past, I have not had much luck. I the past, I never had a heat mat and would just stick the cutting into peat moss in the pots and hope for the best. I also have some of the plastic plant trays, along with a 4 tier mini green house. Can I place the cuttings in peat moss, in the peat pots and place them on the heat mat? The plastic plant trays are only 2 1/2 to 3 inches deep. With that, in your opinion, would it be better to fill the tray with peat moss, put my cuttings in and then place the tray on the heat mat? Also, it seems that the heat mat dries the soil out rather quickly, do you keep the soil moist all the time? Last year, I put around 110 cuttings
just in the pots and ended up with maybe 25 plants. Since my source is drying up, I'd like to try for a better success rate this year. I would appreciate any help/suggestions that you can give.


----------



## grapeman

The key to better sucess is the heat mats. You can put the cuttings in whatever you want, peat pots, flats or whatever. Place those on the heat mat and keep MOIST NOT WET for 2-3 weeks. You will see cancerous looking growth on the edge of the cuttings (bottom). Those are the callouses and when you get those, you will get roots. Another IMPORTANT thing is to make the bottom cut just below a bud say 1/4" or less. That damages the cambium slightly and that gives rise to callouses sooner. Good luck.


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## BobR

Thanks Rich!
Does standing the cuttings in water over night do anything to help?

Here are a couple of photos from last spring and even though a lot of the cuttings leafed out, they did not stay alive very long. Also, do you know what that grape like cluster is that is on the leafed out cuttings. A lot of them would shoot a long stem out and then sprout this little cluster. I didn't know what to do with them, so I cut them off.
Thanks Again!


----------



## grapeman

What you experienced with them leafing out and then dying was because they weren't calloused. If they were, they would form roots and that would keep the top growth alive. That is the reason you try to keep the top cool while callousing. It is better to callous them before letting the new growth begin.

The little grape things are the embryonic flowers pushing. It is imperative that they be removed but I usually wait until I can easil tell what part is the flower cluster and what would be a new shoot to leave.


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## BobR

Thanks Rich! I think that you just told me where I have been making a BIG mistake when planting the cuttings. I would always put them into the peat pots and then place them on the four shelves of my "greenhouse." I would then put the plastic cover over it and it would sit in front of the patio doors to catch as much sun as possible. Under that plastic, it would get hot and humid and I thought that this was good for them. Now I know that the tops where far from being kept cool.


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## skyrat

Grapeman, Just read through the entire thread. Awesome info / posting. Thanks....Hope the future finds/keeps you well.

I too am propagating my own vines in preparation for a vineyard. Last year we obtained 17+ acres vacant farmland in The Mohawk Valley Region of NY. 5-6 acres will be 1/2 vineyard 1/2 berry crop. All for making wine. Long range retirement plan of operating a Farm Winery. In 2-3 years I should have propagated all the berry plants I will need. 4-5 should show sufficient grape vine numbers.

I have been experimenting using a different (very easy) technique that might be helpful to members depending on their space & time. It involves a little less maintenance work. Initially there is some prep work as a propagation bed must be made. One drawback is it delays a viable/healthy/transplant-able vine by a year. The plus side is the vine generates itself in the climate it will be living its life in.

POST spring pruning (BEFORE BUD SWELL) of the "parent" vines my trimmings are (re)frozen precut to the desired length and packed in moist media such as shredded newspaper. I maintain the 3-4 budd rule as I place 2 buds under ground when I plant. They remain frozen until the ground temperature reaches 75 deg. and will maintain that temp overnight.

As has been highlighted callousing is a key to a healthy vine start. Once the soil temp is right they are removed from the freezer & / placed in a warm spot & the callous will begin to form. I keep the "sticks" in the media so they do not dry out and allow the buds to begin to swell.
Planting time...I then Dip in Rooting hormone and stick in holes 2 budds deep in my propagation bed.

I had about 75-80% survival rate over the summer on several varieties with 1-2 feet vine growth. Catawba / Cayuga / St Croix / Traminette. All just sticks planted in the ground. Other varieties as well but not sure if they will work out. I will post overwintering survival rates once spring wakes my babies up. 

Also experimenting as to which type of propagation bed has better winter survival rates. One bed is a well prepared garden soil plot. 2nd bed is a raised bed 1/2 sand / 1/2 garden soil mix which showed excellent root development when samples were dug and also allows for earlier "stick planting".  

Kinda got long winded I guess. Hope this helps some folks out.


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## grapeman

skyrat the methods you speak about are the way I used to do it and actually makes a lot more work in the end/ Where the method I show eliminates much work for establishing the vineyard, the nursery route is a good solid method but involves more work in 95% of the operations. The nursery method grows healthy vines, but all the work is basically hand done. A big part of that is weed control for a whole year and when you grow thousands of vines is very labor intensive. Another big item is the hand digging up of those thousands of vines.
Here is one bed with a few hundred vines





And here is another one with thousands





And some in plant bands to be planted in the nursery for a year





Calloused regular cuttings






And for those who want to read a whole thread of a vineyard from beginning with a few dozen vines to a small commercial vineyard
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/champlain-valley-my-vineyard-19820/


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## grapeman

Here is a shot a few weeks later


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## skyrat

Grapeman, Don't get me wrong. Your method is excellent for propagating a "bunch" of vines. I may even explore using your method as I was quite impressed with your results. I agree that later dig ups will involve more work at transplanting time but I have access to the equipment to make it less labor intensive.

I am merely trying to point out to the new (casual / small qty) grower that in very little space (of say a garden plot) they could propagate their own vines without the use of a greenhouse which may be cost or space prohibitive. 

Quick question that I did not see /may have missed in the threads. Did you use a misting system in your greenhouse setup?

Also mentioned in the thread.....Japanese Beetles. Just wondering if you have explored Milky Spore usage. I have had excellent results and the beauty is that one treatment should last up to 20 years.


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## grapeman

skyrat this thread is merely giving those interested in it an alternative method for starting vines I am documenting as I go along. I have done things your way many times and there is nothing wrong with it. Things are not ever set in stone with grape growing nor winemaking. I never intend to tell anyone that this way is the best. I merely throw it out there for anyone that finds it interesting.
As far as milky spore it is impractical in my application because of the acreage involved. We are in a rural setting and it would be very impractival to innoculate the whole area for it to be effective.


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## skyrat

Still one question for you if you please.. Do you use a misting system in your greenhouse?


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## grapeman

skyrat no I do not use a misting system. Since these are hardwood cuttings, misting is not needed. Just keep the soil somewhat moist.


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## AmityFlatts

Thanks for the thread, I found it useful as I begin my journey to a vineyard.


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## BobR

Rich,
Before callusing, does it do any good to stand the cuttings in water for 24 hours, or is that a toss up like using a rooting hormone? When I go out to get my cuttings, is there anything that would stand out on the vine that would make it an excellent cutting? Also, what about perlite mixed in the potting soil, does that do any good?


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## grapeman

BobR said:


> Rich,
> Before callusing, does it do any good to stand the cuttings in water for 24 hours, or is that a toss up like using a rooting hormone? When I go out to get my cuttings, is there anything that would stand out on the vine that would make it an excellent cutting? Also, what about perlite mixed in the potting soil, does that do any good?


 
It doesn't hurt to put in water and a bit of chlorox helps kill any living nasties. Just be sure to keep it out of the wineamking area.

For cuttings look for shoots or canes this time of year that are bronze in color and are about pencil thickness. Look for spacing 3-4 inches apart of the buds so the cuttings are a reasonable length. Perlite mixed in provides a bit better drainage and air in the soil.


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## BobR

Thanks Rich!


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## BobR

grapeman said:


> Next I take the plug trays and fill them with the same potting mix. I then shove the calloused cuttings in them to fill. I am using a standard flat size that holds 38 cuttings. These are a bit over 2 inches deep and form a root plug.
> First an empty tray and then a row of filled trays without any buds pushing yet.



Rich,
Do you check, or does it hurt to check the cutting to see if the callusing process has begun, or do you just wait a week or two and assume that if it's going to callus, it should be done by then?
Also, once callused and put into the plug tray, is that tray placed on a heat mat?

Thanks!


----------



## grapeman

The heat mat is what begins the callousing. Don't pull them every day to check. Put the cuttings in the container on the heat mat, trying to keep it at about 80 degrees. You won't generally see them for about 10 days to 2 weeks, but the whole process takes up to 3 weeks to get them ready. Once you begin to see the rootlets coming out of the callouses, it is time to transfer them to the pots or whatever. Leave the ones not yet calloused in there to see if they will callous or root, some are slower than others to get going. Sorry for any typos, I had chemo yesterday and today.


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## BobR

grapeman said:


> Sorry for any typos, I had chemo yesterday and today.



Rich, 
My gosh, no apology needed on your end, if anything, I should apologize for bothering you at time when you weren't feel well. It was not urgent, so I could have waited until you were feeling better.

Thanks again for your advice and once again, I am sorry that I caught you at a bad time.


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## grapeman

Not a bad time, my fingers are just a bit clumsy right now. I thought it prudent to respond in a timely manner as the callousing on the heat mat or other heat source is cucial to sucess.


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## BobR

I went out today for a few cuttings and then the weather turned bad, so I had to cut things short. I have maybe 20 cuttings standing in water with a few drops of clorox mixed in. I was going to plant them in peat pots, but after looking at all of your work, I think I'll try and put them in the plastic plant trays. The only thing that worries me is that these plant trays are not as deep as the lugs that you use, so I don't know if they will stay without falling over. With all of your advice, I can only hope that my success rate will be better than in years past. Oh well, at least it's fun to mess with these things. Sort of makes ya feel like Elmer Swenson.....ha, yeah right!


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## grapeman

Bob I used those little plug trays in anticipation of using a waterwheel transplanter to keep the rootball small. That is the reason there why I used two bud cuttings. Three or more cuttings above ground get tippy in those little holes. It makes a smaller plant to begin with, but they seem to grow just as well in the first year- and you can skip planting in a nursery so you have the potential to gain a year. Another bonus is you can get more starts out of the same amount of mother vines.

Remember this is just one way of doing it and this particular thread is to document one new way of establishing a vineyard quickly. It will not be appropriate for everybody and every situation.


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## BobR

Hi Rich,

So with that being said, could I plant my cuttings in small peat pots, place them on the heat mat and just skip the transplanting phase after callusing? Will they callus, root and leaf out in the same pot without any problems? If so, when would you suggest removing them from the heat mat, or would you remove them?


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## grapeman

That depends on how many cuttings you are beginning and how large the heat mat is. Remember not all of them will callous and root. When doing at a higher desnity, when you find that sufficient numbers have calloused, you can then transfer to pots and move those to the heating mats that you uncover. That way you will only be growing the growing ones and not a bunch of barren sticks. I can't answer too many more questions probably for a few days now as I am coming down off of the steroids after chemo the last two days.


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## grapeman

It has been a long time since I updated this thread. Life has been busy and so have we. Next up on the agtenda in the new vineyard is to install the trellis so we can begin training seriously. The vines have been growing on their bamboo stakes and have gotten so large that they are tipping out of the ground. It has rained about 10 inches in the last month delaying the trellis installation. We had about a week of drier weather so last week we tried using the little Bobcat auger system on tracks. After just a few hours it broke a main hydraulic line and by the time they repaired it, we had Farmer's Markets to do. I had them bring it back today and after 5 holes it blew another hose. Four hours later we were back in business. We have about half of the almost 600 holes drilled in. I am not sure if we can do all of it or if it will be too wet at the lower end. We shall see.

I don't have pictures yet but will try to take a few as we install the trellis if time allows. More later.

Here is a picture of the machine we used- not from now but when I planted the original vineyard in 2006


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## vinividivici

I wish I had used that track model when I bored the holes for my vines and apple trees. The rental center only had a wheeled Bobcat and it was a challenge on the slope and the soft ground. It was hard keeping the rows straight and not rolling it over.

Hope you are doing well with your medical challenge!

Cheers,
Bob


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## grapeman

It has been a long time since I updated this thread. After doing all those holes, we had incessant rains for months and the holes filled back in. The ground finally got a bit drier in the late autumn and we were able to dig the upper section of the vineyard. We got a lot of the wires run there, but did not get the vines trained onto the wires. That was good and bad. The winter was very cold, so the vines on the ground had the buds protected. The bad part of it was that the mice and rabbits had a field day with the vines and chewed a lot of them. Below are some pictures taken of the upper section with the vines finally tied to the bambo, string and wires. The next pictures are from where we were putting in as many posts as we could today where the wet ground allowed it. I would like to wait a couple weeks for the soil moisture to lower making the process easier, but we need to get the rest of the trellis in and the vines tied up, because budbreak is here and we don't want to ruin too many buds.


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## seth8530

Great thread, defiantly a thing of love.. I am not sure if I would be able to go through with it myself or not.


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## grapeman

The posts are still crooked because we just put them in the holes today and will straighten and backfill the first chance we get. That way if it rains, at least the posts are in the holes. We are down to only about 75 posts to go. A couple more that wouldn't fit in the last upload.


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## ibglowin

I know your doing the best you can Rich. Hope you are feeling OK these days. Little by little you will "get-r-done"


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## grapeman

It isn't the prettiest Mike at the present, but it will be quite the sight in another year. We believe in using all the renewable resources we can when possible and they aren't as shiny and sparkly as many vineyards, but it will be quite functional.


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## TicinoVintner

grapeman said:


> It isn't the prettiest Mike at the present, but it will be quite the sight in another year. We believe in using all the renewable resources we can when possible and they aren't as shiny and sparkly as many vineyards, but it will be quite functional.


Looks great to me. I wish my vineyard was flat. It would make things so much easier to get machinery in there. Plus I would never have to worry about losing my footing and taking out a few rows, which comes really close to happening every time I put on my backpack sprayer. 



Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## mgmarty

Inspiration for me. Your work makes my 72 vines seem pretty easy.


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## srcorndog

What type of post are you using are they locust post?


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## grapeman

The posts are Eastern White Cedar. Black locust lasts longer, but the cedar goes for around 20 years. We have a lot more cedar on the farm than locust, so we chose that. We have used around 650 of them in the last couple years and another 350 a few years ago.


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## grapeman

We have been busy getting the posts straightened up and backfilled. Then the wires were run- about 6 miles altogether. Then we installed larger bamboo poles and have been training the vines to the bamboo and trellis. Been trying to get it mowed as we get the vines out of the old grass and off the ground. Here are a few more pictures.


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## mgmarty

Six miles of wire. Wow! Looks nice



Baco Noir and Seyval Blanc in Utah


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## Runningwolf

Rich that looks awesome. Nice to be able to get back in the vineyard with some decent weather.


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## spaniel

Wow, amazing, so much work. I hope your production and sales are set to keep up with the output!


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## ibglowin

What a difference a year makes! Looks fantastic.


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## grapeman

The last of the vines went up on the stakes and wires today! Time to celebrate! I went out this evening and was able to put on a spray over the entire vineyard for the first time this year. There is a bit of disease in there so I was sure to get a good coverage by double spraying and included a protective spray and one that helps combat an existing infection. Those rows that I took pictures of 10 days or so ago have growth up to 3 feet now! I will get some pictures when I have some time in the day when it doesn't rain too much!


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## grapeman

Recapping a bit here.
From this:







To this:





To this:





And:




















To this:





And soon more pictures showing more growth. This has happened over the course of just a little over 2 full years.


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## WeimarWine

*Hoo-ray*

Grapeman,

Thanks for the photo recap. Major accomplishment. Truly inspirational and beautiful to boot.

WeimarWine

Mike


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## mgmarty

Looks great. Love seeing pictures of vineyards! Am I the only crazy one? 


Baco Noir and Seyval Blanc in Utah


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## Runningwolf

Thats awesome progress Rich, thanks for sharing.


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## drumlinridgewinery

Looks great


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## OilnH2O

The "recap" is a quick reminder of just how much work you've put in to this. It has been great to observe and you've really gone above and beyond in documenting it all. Thanks, Rich. 

-Dave


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## grapeman

Here are those updated pictures


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## ibglowin

Are you sure these vines were only planted last Spring?


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## grapeman

Mike they were planted 2 full years ago. They were this big last year also, but without the trellis they tipped the bamboo over, the mice shredded many shoots over winter and they were a bi+ch to prune and train, but they are doing much better now. The larger ones on the right are Marquette, covered with blooms. I will leave some at least for now to tone down the vigor a bit. (sorry Mike I couldn't resist). Mine just recently bllomed, but they didn't freeze! I believe next year they will prune nicely and with any luck at all should bear about 5 to 6 tons per acre if we hold them back a bit.


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## ibglowin

OMG, I was going to post a pick of my marquette that I planted last Spring in comparison if those were only one year old vines… I only feel just slightly better as my now one year old vines are coming back strong and are now at almost a full *TWO FEET TALL! *

I should be up to 5 to 6 clusters per vine in 3 years or so! 




grapeman said:


> I believe next year they will prune nicely and with any luck at all should bear about 5 to 6 tons per acre if we hold them back a bit…..


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## peaches9324

OilnH2O said:


> The "recap" is a quick reminder of just how much work you've put in to this. It has been great to observe and you've really gone above and beyond in documenting it all. Thanks, Rich.
> 
> -Dave



my words exactly! Just beautiful!


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## GreginND

Rich, what kind of grass did you plant between the rows?

You are an inspiration, for sure. Thanks for the pictures.


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## grapeman

The grass is fescue. It is a fairly short growing grass so it doesn't over run the vineyard.


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## fivebk

Rich everything looks GREAT!!! 

I sure wish I hadn't lost my vines....... I know it sounds crazy, but I miss working with them/ watching them grow.

I need to figure a way to come see this operation in person one of these days.

BOB


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## grapeman

So this update is for the new vineyard begun almost a full three years ago. I will put in a before and current phot of a couple areas. The first are obviously at or before planting and the others are from this sprin after pruning. The lower end of the field is a bit wetter and the vines are growing slower, but boy what a change. The upper section looking east the vines are larger. In a month or so I will post again when they get their foliage.


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## ibglowin

Amazing what a vine will do when it is actually grown in SOIL! Looking good Rich.


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## mgmarty

Amazing. So much work, but they seem to be doing great!


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## grapeman

Here are a few more pictures a bit later in the season -early June.


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## mgmarty

Looks good. Third year? Are you letting them carry any kind of crop?


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## grapeman

This is actually the fourth growing year in the ground. It was so wet we couldn't get the trellis in until last year. They should be even bigger but are mostly fully covering the fruiting wire so they should yield 4 or 5 tons per acre on the Marquette (about 15 pounds per vine). The Leon Millot are a bit smaller because of mice chewing on them last year before they were brought up to the wires. They should have around 8-10 pounds per vine average though. The other few varieties will vary.


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## CTDrew

Looks great grapeman! Are you using the landscape fabric for weed control only or do you find it warms the soil and helps ripening? I'm thinking of how vegetable farms use plastic mulch to ripen crops faster and wondering if you saw that effect in the vineyard.


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## grapeman

I used it for weed control while the vines were establishing and it still helps with that job. I haven't gotten much crop yet out of it so I am not sure how much it speeds ripening. Hopefully I will find out this year.


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## grapeman

About a month later, the vines are really filling out and there is quite a few grapes on most of them. I do have a nutrient problem with the vines. A leaf petiole sample shows a potassium and calcium deficiency. I went out today after the market in Lake Placid and applied some foliar feertilizer to hopefully get them straightened out. I snapped a few pictures after getting done. This shows how things have grown in a couple short months.


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## chrisvt

Looks fantastic, Rich! Nice to finally have more than two days in a row of sunny weather, isn't it?


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## grapeman

I thought I would make a note here for this thread. While I have shared this thread on WineMakingTalk I figured I would expand the reach of this along with the scope of it. Last autumn I applied for a NE SARE (Northeastern Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education) grant to replicate the process used here in order to share the method with more growers across the country. Over the weekend I received notice that the proposal was accepted and it will be moving forward in the upcoming weeks. When I have finished with the process at the end of the year I will be creating a booklet and possibly a slideshow or similar to give interested parties a "recipe book" approach to the method. This is not intended to be something for everyone to use, but may be used by many in some part. 

Stay tuned there will be much more to follow.


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## srcorndog

*Ne sara grant*

Congratulations as an educator I know how hard it is to write grants as well as the excitement when your grant is excepted!
Looking for your final work!

Congrats
Charlie
The Vineyard at Hominy Creek


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## BlueStimulator

What a great read, I have done a micro/micro version for my home. Tried rooting some Vio and Cab S some are starting to leaf out and some are just budding. I only need 6 so of the 40 or so I planted I should come out OK. Glad you took care of the big C and thanks for posting and congrats on the Grant


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## grapeman

I have begun work with this new project for the grant. We collected cuttings for the project last November and stored them in garbage bags in the garage to moderate temperatures. The bundles were wrapped in damp paper towels to keep them from drying out.


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## grapeman

I then prepared two bud cuttings and dipped them in a rooting hormone this time. For now to conserve space and callus them I put six cuttings per cell into the 38 cell plug trays. The cuttings were placed March 11 and 12. It will take them 10-14 days to callous if they are maintained around 80 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## grapeman

The plug trays were placed on a heated propagation mat with a digital thermostat set at 81 degrees. The room temperature where thy are on the mat is set in the mid 50's to slow top growth. This is to ensure the calluses form before the buds open into leaves. If that happens the cuttings likely perish - called collapse. To monitor this I have set up a three probe data logger. Two of them monitor the cell plug temperature and the third records the ambient room temperature. The logger records all three temperatures once a minute. It is very accurate and it records temp changes whenever I water them or move one to prepare. The log is kept in a little SD card. I can remove it, place in my laptop and the storage data is transferred to an Excel spreadsheet.


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## bhoenisch

Looking forward to updates on the cutting/rooting project! I tried several last year and they failed for various reasons, but I just used a seedling heat mat with no temperature control and believe I probably had too much heat. Trying a different method this year to more closely monitor temps in the soil.


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## mgmarty

I know you've done this before Rich, what is your success rate?


----------



## RedSun

G-man,

I have the same setup as yours. But I found that, with all the heat mats I have, it is impossible to achieve 80F at the root zone. I set up mine at 80F, and the heat mat is on all day, still below 80F. Last year, I had to use two layers of heat mats, though that is not recommended. But this year, I need the other heat mats to start my vegetable seeds, so just one layer for now.

Just an observation. Great work.


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## grapeman

Marty I will let you know the success rate after they have callused and rooted and grown. The point of this grant is the whole process and not just one factor. It may be a huge success but failures are accepted as they are something to learn from. Rooting success last time was around 75% but to me more importantly was the 99.5% survival rate of planted vines.

RedSun I don't know what is different with my setup but I have the thermostat set at 81 degrees and the data loggers are both consistently within 1 degree of that and usually a bit higher. If it was not maintaining the temperature, I could raise the ambient room temperature a couple degrees. The loggers are so sensitive that they record the temperature change that occurs when I water as I can never get the water exactly 80.


----------



## grapeman

A bit of a note here from something I find interesting. 12 days ago I started callusing two varieties my son Rick had taken last November after dormancy and stored until preparing for callusing. They are barely showing signs of beginning to callus. I decided to start a few varieties for replacements to some missing vines here and there in the vineyards. I put them in the callusing process just a week ago. Almost all of them have callused a bit now and one I checked had a half in rootlet. If not for worrying about dead buds from winter freezes maybe spring cuttings before breaking dormancy are better. Just anecdotal evidence but interesting all the same.


----------



## BlueStimulator

I think with Cab S and Viognier I am sitting at less than 50%. About 35 starts were tried with one vine per pot. Better success in the Viognier than the Cab S. I tried my best to get 2 buds in the soil. A few budded out then died. I did use heat mats and rooting hormone. I only needed 6 Viognier the rest I am giving away. So far it has been a fun experiment.


----------



## BlueStimulator

Above are the Viognier below are the Cab S


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## grapeman

So you all know what the calluses look like here is a picture of a cutting with some callusing going on. In a few days they should begin to push small roots.


----------



## RedSun

G-man,

Do you remove the cuttings to individual cells after the callusing process? Or you wait for the roots to form a bit?

I put 3 cuttings in the same cell trays you are using. After 12 days of callusing (with heat mat), I removed the heat today. I can either keep the same cutting for now, or plant them outside. I just do not have more of those trays.

Those are the cuttings I took at the end of February. Leaves have started to emerge.


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## grapeman

They really should be spread out some. You can either remove the ones that aren't beginning to root and grow and keep the best one in those cells or else get some more containers and put one in each.


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## grapeman

To give you all an idea of how much these vines can grow quickly, here is a picture o the same vines planted in June 2012. These are not four full years old yet and most of the Marquette are pruning out around 4 pounds of one year wood. That is vigorous by any measure. The vines on the left got so heavy they pulled the inch and a half staples out last year and I will need to replace with larger staples to prevent it from happening again. The second picture shows the goal of finish pruning, although I may shorten the spurs a bit later.


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## grapeman

The cuttings have callused and been put into the cell plugs and moved into the little greenhouse, a couple times. The weather keeps being fickle and since there is only a little space heater in there if it gets too cold I have to bring them back inside. Snowing outside this AM and up to an inch and a half or so and tonight it is expected to be in the mid 20's. If it quits snowing I will need to move inside, again.


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## ibglowin

A beautiful Spring day in NY!


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## grapeman

That's for sure! Cars were even sliding off the road this AM.

I moved the baby vines back inside a properly heated space from the little greenhouse nursery a few minutes ago. It was a balmy 75 inside the greenhouse as the clouds brightened up from the 2 or 3 inch snowfall this AM. Expecting mid 20's tonight and wanted to insure they don't freeze. Here is a picture of one of them a bit farther along showing a couple flower clusters. Those will get picked off as they get large enough to remove safely. Right now they are a bit bigger than a pencil eraser.
Here is a closeup.


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## BlueStimulator

Help I have no idea what I am doing, Grapeman since you have experience growing grapes from cuttings I need a little advice here. My cuttings were growing great. 5 weeks on a grow mat in December and January, then the sprouted. I think I may have watered them too last much last month, because the leaves eventually wilted and died. They do have good long roots and I was wondering if They will put out more green shoots in time. I would sure hate to buy plants if these migh grow. I did cut a few of the tops and the cuttings are still mostly green. A week ago I planted the best six and inside to grow tubes one has put out a new green shoot the others leaves have wilted and died but all of them had roots that were at least 3 to 4 inches long. This picture shows the worst Of the plants. The single pots in the back are red vines and they seem to be doing a little bit better. The smaller individual plants like you have in your greenhouse are the Viognier which look to be wilted. Since that picture all the shoots have wilted and dried up. I will put a picture below so you can look at what happened


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## BlueStimulator

Here is the growth they had a month or so ago. I did mix a very week B root stimulator and very weak miracle grow fertilizer. I used these 3 weeks apart when they were growing well


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## RedSun

Did you harden the vines before you put them out in the field?

This is my vine holding area. I planted them about one week ago, all are still good. I started about 75 cuttings and lost about 2 or 3 of them in total. Happy about it.





BlueStimulator said:


> Here is the growth they had a month or so ago. I did mix a very week B root stimulator and very weak miracle grow fertilizer. I used these 3 weeks apart when they were growing well


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## grapeman

Jason you probably did overwater a bit and the leaves got diseased. It can be tricky to make sure they don't dry out, but overwatering is worse than not quite enough water. Let them dry out a bit and hopefully a few will regrow a bit. Generally though when they start growing tops and then die back, it is because they didn't have enough roots. Try, try and try again. They didn't cost you a lot, so go for it again.


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## BlueStimulator

I will let them dry out and see what happens. Thanks for the advice if only a few live then I will be happy. I was planning on giving some to a friend he wants tonrestart his vineyard but not sure if enough wl survive.


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## BlueStimulator

RedSun said:


> Did you harden the vines before you put them out in the field?



Not sure what holding is as I have no idea what I am doing. They were cut in Jan and put on heat mats in small pots for a 4-6 weeks then the grew slowly and looked good after another 4-6 weeks. A few weeks ago they started wilting. I think the due to, to much water and or fertilizer and or my brown thumb. I planted the 6 best in grow tubes and well am hoping for the best.


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## OilnH2O

Sometimes less is more. I have been amazed at what I thought were "sticks" that, after forgetting about them and leaving them alone for a couple weeks, suddenly were putting out leaves and showing life. 

You might be surprised!


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## BlueStimulator

One can only hope!!!!!

And wait


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## daniyalsm

I hope you get good weather soon! It has already crossed 100 F here lol.


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## grapeman

The vineyard has continued to do well and the Marquette grapes are in veraison. It is continually in the mid to upper 80's here.


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## Masbustelo

They look great!


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## ibglowin

Do you trim/hedge the your vines before netting? Looks like you have vines reaching the vineyard floor from the top wire!


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## grapeman

No I don't hedge them. That makes them send out laterals and makes a tangled mess. Yes many shoots reach the ground from the top wired at 6 feet and would be much longer if there wasn't a heavy crop.


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## grapeman

I want to bump this thread back up now. I haven't had time to keep it updated properly. My wife and I have both been sick especially recently so time for working on it has been limited. I have been working on the little booklet/guide I mentioned earlier and will put it here soon. I just wanted to bump this so that I could find the thread easier next time. I am also making it sticky for now so I can add to it easier.


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## sour_grapes

Hope you are convalescing, Rich!


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## grapeman

So here is the Guide to Propagating Grapevines Using Two bud Cuttings I created for sharing with everyone.


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## JamesGrape

That is a very nice document, thank you.


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## Ellawell

This was an awesome thread to scroll through. As a relatively impatient person, I wonder if I like the wrong hobby with all this waiting and the time stamps from root to fruit prove it! Haha. Thank you for documenting this.

I've got a rooting question: I've got about 70 Cab Sav and 60 Zin vine clippings. A few of the Cab have been in soil for a couple weeks now and the rest are newer. I'm not really noticing much progress. My concern is that I didn't know about heating mats before I started. Would buying some now perhaps be too late, 1-3 weeks after starting them? The slow progress makes me think they've died, even though I can still see a bit of green inside the stem from the buds I removed, and the green ones I'm attempting to root are still fully green as well.


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## Zintrigue

Oh my, this is great information. Who knew it was that easy.


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## CK55

Ellawell said:


> This was an awesome thread to scroll through. As a relatively impatient person, I wonder if I like the wrong hobby with all this waiting and the time stamps from root to fruit prove it! Haha. Thank you for documenting this.
> 
> I've got a rooting question: I've got about 70 Cab Sav and 60 Zin vine clippings. A few of the Cab have been in soil for a couple weeks now and the rest are newer. I'm not really noticing much progress. My concern is that I didn't know about heating mats before I started. Would buying some now perhaps be too late, 1-3 weeks after starting them? The slow progress makes me think they've died, even though I can still see a bit of green inside the stem from the buds I removed, and the green ones I'm attempting to root are still fully green as well.


Patience, they will grow.


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## M38A1

Amazing thread which only took me 3/4 of a bottle of wine to get through.  LovedLovedLoved all the detail and your approach. Seeing the time and date stamps on the posts was also helpful in getting a sense of time to complete each phase. Most certainly a lot of effort not only to build the winery but to document it in this post.


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## Karl

mwestern said:


> Rich,When we started our little vineyard I read someplace you should plant your rows from east to west have you heard this before ? Also how do you intend to water your rows ? Looking forward to your progress. We only have 32 plants right now maybe more when I retire. Good luck..... Mike



Have only heard that in the context of prevailing winds, thinking that the winds will dry the vines quicker. I think that is useless.

Wish my vines were growing N/S and the sun rises from the east to west last time i checked in the Northern Hemisphere, and i prefer good sun exposure on both sides of my vines (which i currently do not have and it is a problem)


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## ibglowin

Most of the time you want to plant N/S as you want to maximize E/W sunlight in order to ripen the grapes especially in cooler climates such as where this vineyard exist...... Relying on the wind to blow fungal spores off your vines is a disaster in the making. Fungal disease is best treated by proper spraying protocols.


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## CK55

ibglowin said:


> Most of the time you want to plant N/S as you want to maximize E/W sunlight in order to ripen the grapes especially in cooler climates such as where this vineyard exist...... Relying on the wind to blow fungal spores off your vines is a disaster in the making. Fungal disease is best treated by proper spraying protocols.


You should know that I live in a extremely dry area we maybe get rain 4x a year. So I'm not at risk for mildew or fungus as much as others. I also don't spray my vines with anything. Only my 40 year old Alicante vine got some black spot .And that's about it.


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## Dennis Griffith

Well done! I notice you didn't use growing tubes. I tried them the first year that started. I decided that I could do better, so I quit using them.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Well done! I notice you didn't use growing tubes. I tried them the first year that started. I decided that I could do better, so I quit using them.


I did because where I live is really Sunny and my Barbera got burned a bit when we had a freak 104F day. Which is rare.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> I did because where I live is really Sunny and my Barbera got burned a bit when we had a freak 104F day. Which is rare.



Well, that makes a difference. I don't have the sun issue, but without the tubes, my first year vines this year reached the top wire and I was able to get a nice head with a couple of cordons. Now they are growing canes like nobody's business. I may let them bear next year on year 2, which I haven't ever done. But I think I've got the soil prep down fairly well, which resulted in some vigorous first year vines.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Well, that makes a difference. I don't have the sun issue, but without the tubes, my first year vines this year reached the top wire and I was able to get a nice head with a couple of cordons. Now they are growing canes like nobody's business. I may let them bear next year on year 2, which I haven't ever done. But I think I've got the soil prep down fairly well, which resulted in some vigorous first year vines.
> 
> View attachment 50405


What rootstock? 

I have a lot of different rootstocks planted in my vineyard 
Malbec-5BB Kober
Alicante Bouschet- 101-14 3x replants on 1103p
Merlot-1103p
Cabernet Franc-1103p
Barbera-101-14
Carmenere-Riparia 
Picardan-S04
Picpoul-so4
Nebbiolo-1103p

I want to grab petit verdot to make my Bordeaux vineyard whole.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> What rootstock?
> 
> I have a lot of different rootstocks planted in my vineyard
> Malbec-5BB Kober
> Alicante Bouschet- 101-14 3x replants on 1103p
> Merlot-1103p
> Cabernet Franc-1103p
> Barbera-101-14
> Carmenere-Riparia
> Picardan-S04
> Picpoul-so4
> Nebbiolo-1103p
> 
> I want to grab petit verdot to make my Bordeaux vineyard whole.



It is America and 'own rooted'. A very vigorous vine, but it does seem to be more susceptible to the mildews than advertised. Or else I live on fungus acres, which is really the case (Ohio River Valley).


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> It is America and 'own rooted'. A very vigorous vine, but it does seem to be more susceptible to the mildews than advertised. Or else I live on fungus acres, which is really the case (Ohio River Valley).


What have you been controlling fungus with?


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> What have you been controlling fungus with?



Various cocktails of mancozeb, captan, immunox, copper, neem oil, and serenade. I intend on starting next year earlier with a dormant oil. Fungus is bad here and effects everything that grows (even people). I grow fruit trees as well and it is a constant battle. I've actually considered cutting out some varieties of apple because I just never seem to get the upper hand. The America variety of grape that I grow seems to be the most susceptible to DM vs. the Buffalo and Concord. They only thing that I've grown that hasn't shown any signs of fungus are sweet potatoes.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Various cocktails of mancozeb, captan, immunox, copper, neem oil, and serenade. I intend on starting next year earlier with a dormant oil. Fungus is bad here and effects everything that grows (even people). I grow fruit trees as well and it is a constant battle. I've actually considered cutting out some varieties of apple because I just never seem to get the upper hand. The America variety of grape that I grow seems to be the most susceptible to DM vs. the Buffalo and Concord. They only thing that I've grown that hasn't shown any signs of fungus are sweet potatoes.


Im going to be honest several vinifera grapes on the right grafted roots can far better resist fungus. I don't have any fungus really being in California. Only one 40 year old vine is showing mild fungus which I've nearly cured. I do use neem as sort of a preventative measure for disease and pests. I'm more worried about bugs and birds than I am diseases.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> Im going to be honest several vinifera grapes on the right grafted roots can far better resist fungus. I don't have any fungus really being in California. Only one 40 year old vine is showing mild fungus which I've nearly cured. I do use neem as sort of a preventative measure for disease and pests. I'm more worried about bugs and birds than I am diseases.



I have my bug issues as well, mainly Japanese beetles. When they descend, they come by the bus load. I use either Garden Tech Sevin (not carbaryl) or Ortho Flower and Veggie bug killer to control them. I also treat the soil with milky spore in and around the vineyard. The America variety comes from Jaeger No. 43 x V. rupestris hybrid, so it shouldn't need to be grafted. I have thought about trying one just to see how it comes out. I have a bunch of fox grapes (V. labrusca) that would take over if I didn't chop out section of them every spring. The fox grape is native to this area where as the mountain grape is not.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> I have my bug issues as well, mainly Japanese beetles. When they descend, they come by the bus load. I use either Garden Tech Sevin (not carbaryl) or Ortho Flower and Veggie bug killer to control them. I also treat the soil with milky spore in and around the vineyard. The America variety comes from Jaeger No. 43 x V. rupestris hybrid, so it shouldn't need to be grafted. I have thought about trying one just to see how it comes out. I have a bunch of fox grapes (V. labrusca) that would take over if I didn't chop out section of them every spring. The fox grape is native to this area where as the mountain grape is not.


Cool yeah, even though we have never had phylloxera where I live all my vines are completely resistant and my Malbec is resistant to both types of phylloxera 100%. So I'm not too worried about anything other than possibly sharpshooters as this local company brought in some fruit trees that were infested and we had a outbreak a few years back. Where I'm at is a coastal maritime climate but also Mediterranean. Because of that I have warm days and cool nights which really makes a difference towards ripening and balancing the acidity and whatnot. I hope once my new vines get going I get good wine.


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## grapeman

This back and forth discussion is good but I want to point out that the point of this thread is to document the way I used here in upstate NY where we have high disease pressure and extremely cold conditions. While there is no right or wrong way to do most things, this is how I did it here and it works well. Don't assume it will work well everywhere. Practices need to be adjusted depending on your area and conditions. Here it would be a disaster to rely on rootstock selections (not talking about bareroot varieties here, but rootstock). Rootstock might have a very slight resistance to disease but individual varieties can be more reliable. Some hybrids have higher resistance than others, but rarely will you find one resistant to everything.


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## Dennis Griffith

grapeman said:


> This back and forth discussion is good but I want to point out that the point of this thread is to document the way I used here in upstate NY where we have high disease pressure and extremely cold conditions. While there is no right or wrong way to do most things, this is how I did it here and it works well. Don't assume it will work well everywhere. Practices need to be adjusted depending on your area and conditions. Here it would be a disaster to rely on rootstock selections (not talking about bareroot varieties here, but rootstock). Rootstock might have a very slight resistance to disease but individual varieties can be more reliable. Some hybrids have higher resistance than others, but rarely will you find one resistant to everything.



I feel your pain. I'm in Ohio and am starting to thinking I'll just have to live with mildews. As long as they are controlled and don't effect the health of the vines (or crop), I just need to feel ok. They will never completely go away as I am only one rain away from a new infestation. We have much of the same conditions except you get more lake effect snow and may be slightly colder. Thanks for making the effort to do this thread as it takes time and is valuable to compare notes and procedures.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> I feel your pain. I'm in Ohio and am starting to thinking I'll just have to live with mildews. As long as they are controlled and don't effect the health of the vines (or crop), I just need to feel ok. They will never completely go away as I am only one rain away from a new infestation. We have much of the same conditions except you get more lake effect snow and may be slightly colder. Thanks for making the effort to do this thread as it takes time and is valuable to compare notes and procedures.


Yep,  it's a battle. But you have to fight it. Frost and fungus and phylloxera are the biggest threats to vines. France in the 1950's lost 75% of all Malbec I believe it was to frost.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> Yep,  it's a battle. But you have to fight it. Frost and fungus and phylloxera are the biggest threats to vines. France in the 1950's lost 75% of all Malbec I believe it was to frost.



I'm hoping that I'm past phylloxera this year. I treated early in spring and have kept the sprays up. So far no sign, so I have my fingers crossed. Right now it's the battle of the mildews as it has been raining every other day and the humidity is high.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> I'm hoping that I'm past phylloxera this year. I treated early in spring the spring and have keep the sprays up. So far no sign, so I have my fingers crossed. Right now it's the battle of the mildews as it has been raining every other day and the humidity is high.


That is not good, just do your best, to keep the fungus at bay.


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## Wijngaard

Signed up just to tell you I enjoyed reading this.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> That is not good, just do your best, to keep the fungus at bay.



Just to let you know, I had no sign of phylloxera this year. I think I finally have my sprays close to where I want them. Now to get rid of that pesky downy.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Just to let you know, I had no sign of phylloxera this year. I think I finally have my sprays close to where I want them. Now to get rid of that pesky downy.


I got a nasty bit of powdery mildew in california because out of nowhere with no forcasted rain it dumped like 3-4 inches and all the vines got wet and then it was hot and humid the next day and mildew just started exploding everywhere. I took care of it though. Treated it right away.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> I got a nasty bit of powdery mildew in california because out of nowhere with no forcasted rain it dumped like 3-4 inches and all the vines got wet and then it was hot and humid the next day and mildew just started exploding everywhere. I took care of it though. Treated it right away.



Good deal. My biggest problem this year was downy mildew. We are at least 12 inches above normal for rain this year and every time it rained it got hot again. So hot and humid was the norm for us in 2018. By the way, I've been investigating vinifera varieties and haven't found one yet that I like that is Zone 6 and colder hardy. Cab Franc is zone 6, but I'm not sure is it is hardy enough.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Good deal. My biggest problem this year was downy mildew. We are at least 12 inches above normal for rain this year and every time it rained it got hot again. So hot and humid was the norm for us in 2018. By the way, I've been investigating vinifera varieties and haven't found one yet that I like that is Zone 6 and colder hardy. Cab Franc is zone 6, but I'm not sure is it is hardy enough.


It is quite hardy, Cabernet Franc is both cold and heat tolerant as wineries here in areas that hit 120F regularly are growing it. Its probably one of the most hardy vines because it isnt susceptible to that many diseases compared to other vines.


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## balatonwine

CK55 said:


> It is quite hardy, Cabernet Franc is both cold and heat tolerant as wineries here in areas that hit 120F regularly are growing it. Its probably one of the most hardy vines because it isnt susceptible to that many diseases compared to other vines.



True.

But, tolerant range is not the same as ideal wine making range.


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## Dennis Griffith

Quite true, which is why the hesitance. As an example, I planted 2 apricot trees many years ago which have never produced a single fruit. The trees do well, but the blooms never go anywhere. I blame it on our erratic spring. Also, it's 26 F outside this morning and it's only fall. Winter will be here soon and it always makes me more selective. I've had too much other stuff die out do to winter (kiwis, figs, etc.). I just planted 2 nectarine trees this fall in hopes of fruit, but time will tell. Which brings us back to grapes, the charts list us in Zone 6 or 6A, depending on what source you use. To do well here, something hardy to Zone 5 is a smart choice. Around the lakes, the water stabilizes the temps somewhat. so the vines don't get hammered unexpectedly. Here in frost (or fungus) hollow, we have to pick hardy. I would like to find a hardy (Zone 5) red vinifera. But then again, I'd also like to find a hardy muscadine as well. I suppose I have more acres and common sense.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Quite true, which is why the hesitance. As an example, I planted 2 apricot trees many years ago which have never produced a single fruit. The trees do well, but the blooms never go anywhere. I blame it on our erratic spring. Also, it's 26 F outside this morning and it's only fall. Winter will be here soon and it always makes me more selective. I've had too much other stuff die out do to winter (kiwis, figs, etc.). I just planted 2 nectarine trees this fall in hopes of fruit, but time will tell. Which brings us back to grapes, the charts list us in Zone 6 or 6A, depending on what source you use. To do well here, something hardy to Zone 5 is a smart choice. Around the lakes, the water stabilizes the temps somewhat. so the vines don't get hammered unexpectedly. Here in frost (or fungus) hollow, we have to pick hardy. I would like to find a hardy (Zone 5) red vinifera. But then again, I'd also like to find a hardy muscadine as well. I suppose I have more acres and common sense.


Go ahead and give cab franc a try. It won't hurt to plant like 10. Which will give you a carboy or 2 about 5-10 gallons.


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## Dennis Griffith

It will make the wife happy. I have a spot almost ready. Which root stock would you recommend?


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> It will make the wife happy. I have a spot almost ready. Which root stock would you recommend?


What is your soil like?


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## Dennis Griffith

The acreage was farmed for many years, so it is considered 'nutrient challenged'. It is clay rich, but the section I'll use has been amended and sub soiled several times. I'll check it again before spring and amend accordingly before planting, but the soil has a clay component and should be considered 'heavy, but humus rich'. Drainage is ok, but due to the clay, has a lot of water retention.


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## CK55

For clay I would do 101-14mgt because it's a clay rootstock. Or 3309.

You might be able to get away with 1103 Paulsen as well as its widely adaptable and less suceptible to issues from too much or too little water. Since waterlogging will be a issue for 3309.


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## Bobp

Grape man I haven't seen any updates in quite a while....since last year actually.....hows it going? Hows it looking?

Not to be rude......but ....Folks this was a great forum topic, it be real nice if we could hold our squirrel chases in a different post......it disrupted the progression of the story....


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## Dennis Griffith

I must apologize for hi-jacking the thread. It was not intentional, we just got carried away and I can be quite verbose at times. I face the same issues as grapeman, so any help is appreciated.


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## justsgm

I want to start a small vineyard in Bergen County, NJ probably start with an acre or two and I'm looking for a consultant to help me out. For compensation of course. Any recommendations.


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## srcorndog

CK55 said:


> For clay I would do 101-14mgt because it's a clay rootstock. Or 3309.
> 
> You might be able to get away with 1103 Paulsen as well as its widely adaptable and less suceptible to issues from too much or too little water. Since waterlogging will be a issue for 3309.


Soil sample and a perp test for drainage first amend the soil will take about a year to complete


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## meridaen

CK55 said:


> You might be able to get away with 1103 Paulsen as well as its widely adaptable and less suceptible to issues from too much or too little water.



Must say I'm glad to read this. Just planted some vines on Paulsen into reasonably clay-heavy soil next to a lake, so they'll find the water pretty damn quickly I'm assuming.


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