# Fresh grapes is the best way to go



## geek (Jan 11, 2014)

I've been making wine with juice buckets for some time and this past fall I decided to try a small batch with fresh grapes.
So I bought 2 cases of Merlot and 1 case of Cabernet Sav to blend it all.

I admit it, not having the proper equipment to make wine with grapes is a PAIN IN THE REAR....

But at the end, what a nice reward, the wine from fresh grapes, after I put through MLF is nice, nice flavor, color, smell and taste.

It is young but what a difference compared to juice buckets.

For some peeps, juice buckets may yield good or better results, but for me I'd definitively use fresh grapes moving forward if I can and whenever possible depending on equipment.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 11, 2014)

Try adding 10 lbs of fresh crushed grapes to the juice buckets, amazing results.


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## HenryMae (Jan 11, 2014)

Pumpkinman - whats the best way to obtain grapes for this purpose? Ordering, grocery store? I'm in Colorado.


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## seth8530 (Jan 11, 2014)

From what I can tell from this fall's fermetnatoin, I think I had really good luck with frozen must ( needs much less equipment than fresh grapes but still delivers a lot of the goods that fresh grapes deliver). That being said, If I had the equipment and the money I would be all game for using fresh grapes.


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2014)

This topic has appeared from time to time on the forum and although I feel like a salmon swimming upstream, I am compelled to offer my _30 lire_. My experience is that making wine from fresh grapes is usually the best way to go and, _ceteris paribus_, is the way one should go to make wine. The problem is, the _ceteris_ is not _paribus!_ 

Wine from fresh grapes usually tastes better, has more body and aroma, etc. but not always. One is subject to the vintage which could be lacking. It definitely takes more work, makes more of a mess, requires more equipment, is time critical, i.e. one has to start making the wine soon after acquiring the grapes, one is limited to making wine once a year (twice if one uses Southern Hemisphere grapes) and one is limited to the varieties of grapes available. For all of this, a marginally better wine can be made.

Contrast this with making a wide varieties of wine, with minimal equipment, any time of the year, in a matter of an hour or so, with easy clean up. For me, and I state this only for me, it is simply not worth it. 

_"There is a point beyond which added investment, while yielding a greater total return, will yield a less proportionate return. This is known as the Point of Diminishing Returns."_


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## geek (Jan 11, 2014)

I know Rocky, wine kits are also and easier but effective way to get a good product.


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## sdelli (Jan 13, 2014)

Wine kits are fun. I make a few of them..... But there is no replacement for the experience of making wine from grapes!


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## vernsgal (Jan 13, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This topic has appeared from time to time on the forum and although I feel like a salmon swimming upstream, I am compelled to offer my _30 lire_. My experience is that making wine from fresh grapes is usually the best way to go and, _ceteris paribus_, is the way one should go to make wine. The problem is, the _ceteris_ is not _paribus!_
> 
> Wine from fresh grapes usually tastes better, has more body and aroma, etc. but not always. One is subject to the vintage which could be lacking. It definitely takes more work, makes more of a mess, requires more equipment, is time critical, i.e. one has to start making the wine soon after acquiring the grapes, one is limited to making wine once a year (twice if one uses Southern Hemisphere grapes) and one is limited to the varieties of grapes available. For all of this, a marginally better wine can be made.
> 
> ...


 I agree Rocky. Also a lot of us are unable to get fresh grapes as easily as others.And not to mention the varietals that kits/ and or pails provide


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## manvsvine (Jan 13, 2014)

once you get up to a certain volume , kits become too expensive .


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 13, 2014)

manvsvine said:


> once you get up to a certain volume , kits become too expensive .



I agree - I always in the past have done juice buckets and thought it was the only way to go at that time. I then have learned about straight grapes and what they offer - WOW!!
I must say it all depends where you are at wine making and your experience - hopefully you get to try all these stages !! 
No matter what stage you are at - you are constantly learning !! That is what makes this forum so great


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## vernsgal (Jan 13, 2014)

manvsvine said:


> once you get up to a certain volume , kits become too expensive .


Again it depends on where you are. Spagnols puts there kits on sale (as well as everything else) at 25 % off for 2 weeks in Feb. , compared to what I pay for grapes in Sept-Oct this is way more affordable. IE $ per bottle. Just saying


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2014)

Rocky I hear you and somewhat agree. 

Years ago, wine kits were not nearly what they are today. Joeswine sent me a bottle of his San Gio, and I was floored! I simply could not believe that kits have come this far. 

I also agree with you that kits are perfect for those without the space, time, or money for equipment. It must be nice to make wine whenever you want. I smile knowing that after I retire, I can still make kits (even if I am living in a condo).

But I am in not hurry.. I plan on being a die-hard grape-smasher. 

The reasons are varied and simple...

Although I had to purchase additional equipment (press and crusher-destemmer), the price per bottle of wine produced is cheaper in the long run. I can produce a wine that is solid gold (IHMO) for about $3.50 per bottle. Most of my equipment is 20 years or older and have more than paid for themselves.

Additionally, the grape crush is an event that my friends and family look forward to. Once a year, I have folks coming from as far as floida, Georgia, and Virginia just to attend and take part of a vintage.

As far as timing, I agree it does add a little more pressure, but this is not as bad for me as you might think. I monitor the harvest and usually can set a date for crush about 3 weeks prior to the event. This give plenty of time for set-up and also for folks to make travel arrangements. I find that my taking 3 days off from work allows more than enough time to git er done.

The crush party itself is a time that I really enjoy. After all the work is done (crushing) and all is straightened up, we all gather for food, and singing, and also to pull a cork or two. I would truly miss these times.

Finally, I simply love it. I mean I love everything about crush and press. From sorting the grapes, to crushing, to pressing, I just love the whole process. 

Years later, when I get together with any of the folks that helped out, and pull a bottle from that year, we remember the good times and rejoice over how well the wine turned out. 

For me, and my situation, being a grape-smasher is well worth it. I would not doubt that I might convert to being a kit-master in future though.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 14, 2014)

John,
That's very cool, this past season, I was able to make wine with my 74 yr old mother and son, it was a blast! My mother being an old Italian mom that is more use to cooking still calls destemming the grapes "deboning" the grapes, I'm not going to argue with her....lol
She even got to make a Sicilian treat using some of the fresh juice, almost like an Italian fruit roll up that her mother use to make called either "mostarda" or "mustarda", I never liked it, even as a kid, but my wife and kids loved it, now that tradition has been passed down to another generation. 
I've asked my sisters to join us next season, I hope that my mother will be able to be here, but like you, I'm really hoping that making wine will become a yearly event for the family.


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## geek (Jan 14, 2014)

And even though a bit messy I think fresh grapes is better overall.
It is just a matter of having proper and right equipment for the crushing and pressing.
If I can find a fellow who lives very close to me and has the needed equipment I'd be making more this Spring, someone that I can pay a small fee or might be looking for a newbie like me that wants to make the process a co-op for both.

Some HBS offer the crushing part at $3/case which is not bad. The only thing is the pressing afterwards as you don't want to start hauling your must back to someone with a press. So maybe, for me, the good option would be pay the HBS the $3/case for crushing/de-stem and then watch for a bargain on CL for a good press. My production won't be big at all anyways as I've been making kits here and there for the time being aside from the juice buckets.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 14, 2014)

geek said:


> Some HBS offer the crushing part at $3/case which is not bad. The only thing is the pressing afterwards as you don't want to start hauling your must back to someone with a press. So maybe, for me, the good option would be pay the HBS the $3/case for crushing/de-stem and then watch for a bargain on CL for a good press. My production won't be big at all anyways as I've been making kits here and there for the time being aside from the juice buckets.



That is the situation I now find myself in. I was able to score a very good deal on a used press back in the fall. The winery that gets the grapes in will crush and destem for a fee. All I have to do is show up with sanitized, empty buckets and take my must home. It's not the cheapest option, but it's very convenient for now. If I can score a great deal on a crusher/destemmer, I'll go for it. Otherwise, I'm happy with not having to clutter the household up with one more piece of equipment.


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## TicinoVintner (Jan 14, 2014)

Plant a vineyard and problem solved as far as getting fresh grapes is concerned. However having a vineyard creates many more problems than the problems that it solves, lol. That said I will probably have a vineyard until the day I die. It's worth all the blood, sweat and tears 10x over. 
Another point, who says you need complicated equipment? A member from winepress.us has a book called homemade winery, get this book. You can make everything yourself. I for one prefer whole berry fermentations so I don't need a crusher, just a destemer which can be as simple as a piece of food grade plastic with knuckle sized holes drilled out, takes maybe ten minutes to make. A press however is mandatory and Steve's book shows exactly how to make a fold up press saving precious storage space.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 14, 2014)

I have that book, it is very cool, I think that anyone that has concerns with the price of the equipment needed, or the room to store it, should buy the book.


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2014)

Guys, 

Depending on the size of your operation, a good press should run, say $400 to $500. A simple motorized crusher-destemmer will run around $700 to $900. 

In short, yup, $1,100 to $1,400 is a little pricey. 

It is, however, worth it! 

This type of equipment, if properly cared for, will last generations. The money you'll save will also justify the cost... 

Say that a high-end kit runs $150. By crushing your own, you can make the equivalent for about $95. That is for 2 lugs of grapes (high-end at $40 per lug) and a budget of $15 for yeast and other consumable materials.

That is a savings of $55 for each 5 gal carboy you make. 

If you make, say, 8 carboys a year, that is a savings of $440.00 per year and it will only take you 3 years or so to break even. 


If you plan on making wine, love the idea of being a grape smasher, and can stomach the financial hit, I would encourage you to got for it.


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## geek (Jan 14, 2014)

John, a typical kit yields ~6gal of wine and obviously after racking you end up with roughly 5.5 give or take.
With 2 lugs of grapes I heard you barely make 5 gallons when pressed and after racking it will be less.

In your process, what is the typical yield for 2 lugs (~35lbs/each)?


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## botigol (Jan 14, 2014)

When I researched using grapes I thought that I found that 100-120 lbs of grapes, depending on variety and water content, were required to make 6 gallons.


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2014)

I typically get 54 liters for 5 lugs of grapes (or 10.8 liters / 2.85 gallons per lug). 

I priced the grapes at $40, but most grapes are priced under $40 (they ranged from 32 to 38 for most varietals last year).


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 14, 2014)

> John, a typical kit yields ~6gal of wine and obviously after racking you end up with roughly 5.5 give or take.
> With 2 lugs of grapes I heard you barely make 5 gallons when pressed and after racking it will be less.


Varis, if getting those most "gallons" for your buck is your goal, then yes, I'd stick with kits if I were you. If making the best possible wine that you can is the goal, grapes are the way to go.
I've made real good wine from Juice Buckets, and decent wine from the few kits that I've made, but nothing like the wine from fresh grapes, but I do understand that some cannot afford the equipment necessary and some don't have the space to store it.
This season I got 10 gallons of Cab Sav from 5 lugs, plus 3 gallons of 2nd run, and 12 gallons of Sangiovese from 6 lugs, plus 5 gallons of 2nd run that I made into a rose'.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 14, 2014)

I only have one batch under my belt, but my 108lbs of Petit Syrah grapes have been whittled down to about 6.25 gallons. By the time I'm done, I'll have 6 gallons, but will have probably had to top up with at least one bottle of commercial during barrel aging. My first press, mind you and I was trying not to kill the grapes with the press. That said, I paid $55/lug. This was for Amador Gold grapes. Not having any experience with whole grapes, I opted to get the higher end grapes to make up for my lack of experience. If I recall correctly, the "regular" grapes were about $46 per lug.


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2014)

Boatboy, 

Those grape prices are rather High. I get mine from Corrado's in NJ and I pay noway near that. I also pick up the grapes myself, so there is no freight. $40 is just about top of the mark for quality grapes.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 14, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Boatboy,
> 
> Those grape prices are rather High. I get mine from Corrado's in NJ and I pay noway near that. I also pick up the grapes myself, so there is no freight. $40 is just about top of the mark for quality grapes.



I'm looking for another source, but haven't found one yet. Sadly, I have to drive two hours each way just to get these.


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## TicinoVintner (Jan 14, 2014)

$400-500 for a winepress? With the book mentioned above which is actually called home built winery you could build one for around 50-80 bucks. Even if you don't want to build a press a $100 one works just as well. It's a press, it doesn't need to be extravagant. Of course I am not sure of the prices in the U.S but here in Europe where everything tends to be more expensive one can easily find a suitable press for around $100, even on Amazon.


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2014)

TV, 

That is the price for an imported Italian wine press. You are correct, you could build one much cheaper and many of the members here have done just that.


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## sdelli (Jan 14, 2014)

botigol said:


> When I researched using grapes I thought that I found that 100-120 lbs of grapes, depending on variety and water content, were required to make 6 gallons.




About 6% to 7% average yield to juice.....


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 14, 2014)

Jim,
I got real decent pricing from M&M, the grapes that I got were nothing short of amazing, and I believe that we paid between $35.00 -$48.00 per lug depending on the grape.


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## Paulc (Jan 15, 2014)

These last couple years I have used my hands to press...grab a softball sized hunk of cap and squeeze it to baseball sized until no more cap remains, then let wine settle before racking. I don't get the yield I "ought" to but then I use the pressed skins for 2nd wine...I am on my 4th vintage now and only just this holiday got a proper press. For only one or two buckets of frozen must, or 200-300 lbs of fresh grapes you don't need the press or the crusher/destemmer. Don't let the lack of "proper" gear stop you. You can always bu the tools to get a better yield or do larger batches once you know you like the process.

And I'm not going back to kit wines. No offense to anyone but they just aren't the same in my opinion.

Paul


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## JohnT (Jan 15, 2014)

You really need to decide how much money you are willing to spend VS how much of a pain in the neck the process will be. I have seen a homemade press made with two 5 gal buckets for about $10. I have also seen a press made from a "dugout" log, a long 4 inch branch, and a length of chain for about $2. 

I like the fact that I have a proper press. I can take off the free run juice and also the "light press" juice as the main wine, but also can press "every-last-friggin-drop" and keep that one separate (it tends to be much more bitter due to the additional tannins in hard-pressed juice). as a result, my wine yields are as high as they possibly can be and I toss away only a hard pack cake of skins. I like knowing that I get my money's worth. 

BTW, my press is electric with a hydrolic motor. It can press to 350 bars and will process a ton of grapes at a time. I sank a lot of $$$ into it and am very glad I did!


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 15, 2014)

John, I agree, you really need to get the proper equipment, it is necessary. 
I will agree in advance to those that are going to post, telling me that they can make their own equipment and get the job done, but, how efficient is it going to be? The yields will suffer, and as john said " I like knowing that I get my money's worth."

As with any hobby, it really depends on what you want to get out of it, and how much are you willing to invest in it, not only money, but time as well.
I'm a type A personality (most tell me that this doesn't come as a shock to them...lol), I want to learn everything, I'm not satisfied with a little, I want to try everything and challenge myself to do better!

If your wine making selection is based upon the estimated cost per bottle, you might be better off buying cheap bottles of wine, just the time we invest alone jacks up the price per bottle to the point where it really isn't cost effective, but for me it isn't about the cost per bottle, it is about the experience.

Making wine kits is fine, if that is what you can make due to time and space constraints, then that is a perfect solution, at least you can make wine and enjoy the fruits of your labor, the same goes for wine made from juice buckets, I've made some real nice wine from them, I've learned to tweak them thanks to a few people that shared their knowledge, and if you can get the chance to make wine from grapes, I highly recommend it, at least once.


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## sdelli (Jan 15, 2014)

Call me crazy but... For some reason I get sicker the next day after drinking kit wine then natural wine made from grapes. Not a hang over but just wacked out. I am thinking maybe a reaction to all the additives a kit puts in.....


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## MarLac (Jan 28, 2014)

geek said:


> I've been making wine with juice buckets for some time and this past fall I decided to try a small batch with fresh grapes.
> So I bought 2 cases of Merlot and 1 case of Cabernet Sav to blend it all.
> 
> I admit it, not having the proper equipment to make wine with grapes is a PAIN IN THE REAR....
> ...


Hi... I live in Midland, TX and nothing is fresh here except cattle. Everything is trucked in. Where did you buy your fresh grapes from?


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## geek (Jan 28, 2014)

MarLac said:


> Hi... I live in Midland, TX and nothing is fresh here except cattle. Everything is trucked in. Where did you buy your fresh grapes from?



From my LHBS.


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## DirtyDawg10 (Jan 29, 2014)

If you are worried about the cost of a press just use your feet like the good ol' days...and on the plus side I have heard that feet can add a lot of mouth feel to your wine


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## DirtyDawg10 (Jan 29, 2014)

OK so that started out as a joke but the more I thought about it I bet these could be cleaned and sanitized pretty easily...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TWHPD6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Then you just need a brute trash can or something to stomp around in.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 29, 2014)

DirtyDawg10 said:


> I have heard that feet can add a lot of mouth feel to your wine



Well, I certainly put my foot in my mouth pretty often, especially after drinking wine; haven't paid much attention to the mid-palate structure during those moments, however....


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## manvsvine (Jan 30, 2014)

For most home winemakers renting presses and crushers makes a lot of spence for gear you need only once a year. Most charge less than $40 a day .

Getting grapes crushed and stemmed by your supplier makes spence too depending on volumes some do it for free and some charge 1-5 dollars a lug , vs 800 for an electric crusher stemmer.

Presses can be had fairly cheap , I bought a number 35 basket press 10 years ago for 200 dollars I just sold it for $250 . A number 35 handled a tonne and a half in a few hours easy and could be used for small batches too.

A wine club could be started by combining funds to buy a press and crusher , you could do group crushes and presses then people take their carboys home to do mlf .


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## JohnT (Jan 30, 2014)

This is what happens when my niece shows up late on crush day. Had her scrub her feet with soap/water, then had her plunge them into a k-meta bath. 

Had a chance to taste the wine a number of weeks ago. It is quite nice.


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## Paulc (Jan 31, 2014)

That's how I do it, about 500 lbs worth of zin, grenache, petite syrah, and some viognier. Clean feet are a plus!

Paul


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## Rocky (Jan 31, 2014)

JohnT said:


> This is what happens when my niece shows up late on crush day. Had her scrub her feet with soap/water, then had her plunge them into a k-meta bath.
> 
> Had a chance to taste the wine a number of weeks ago. It is quite nice.



Wow, what a coincidence, John. My niece also came to my place to crush grapes. I guess we had too much for her and she got a little behind in her work.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 31, 2014)

K-meta! K-meta!! Uhhh, oh, who cares?


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## JohnT (Jan 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Wow, what a coincidence, John. My niece also came to my place to crush grapes. I guess we had too much for her and she got a little behind in her work.


 
:O


*Let's see the French make wine with a better body than that! (LOL).*


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm goin over to Rocky's next season!


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## vacuumpumpman (Jan 31, 2014)

I believe I will be selling my crusher and upgrading !!!


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Wow, what a coincidence, John. My niece also came to my place to crush grapes. I guess we had too much for her and she got a little behind in her work.



Nice bung!


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## Winenoob66 (Jan 31, 2014)

the heck with rocky I am going over to his nieces


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## Winenoob66 (Jan 31, 2014)

lol now I remember what I was gonna post..

the redneck press is always an option
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r2g8avlPmI[/ame]


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## UBB (Feb 9, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Rocky I hear you and somewhat agree.
> 
> Years ago, wine kits were not nearly what they are today. Joeswine sent me a bottle of his San Gio, and I was floored! I simply could not believe that kits have come this far.
> 
> ...



John, 
Awesome story and it's exactly the kind of tradition I hope to establish this fall when we have our first 'real' harvest of our own grapes.


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## JohnT (Feb 10, 2014)

UBB, 

Congrats and Good luck.

If you have any questions or need any advice, just PM me. 

johnT.


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