# Controlled Experiment: Can we reuse screw top bottles and other "odd" bottle types



## Drez

Controlled Experiment: Does corking method or bottle type effect ability to keep wine? Can other bottles (Screw top, Preformed corks, Champagne bottle, Liquor bottles) be used for bottling wine? 

*LONG VERSION:*

*Introduction:​*
Most often hobbyists are know to use traditional ("standard") wine bottles sealed with an agglomerated or synthetic cork inserted with the help of some sort of automated or manual machine that forces the cork into the neck of the bottle. During the majority of the last century, wine has been bottled in a similar fashion for mass production as well. However, more recently there has been an increase in other bottling methods including screw caps on glass bottles, plastic bottles and even tetra packs. While initially this was frowned upon, success with these techniques has resulted in major wine makers and even entire wine regions converting almost exclusively to their use. While not a global phenomenon, the last decade has certainly proven that commercial wine not only can be bottled with success in this fashion but that it also keeps and ages well. It has even been argued that these methods may be superior.

In light of this increased use of screw top bottles in the industry there has be an increase in their availability. This naturally results in the question of use in the home wine making hobby. As in home bottling machinery for screw caps is rare/expensive, adoption of these techniques becomes a difficulty. In the hope of overcoming this hurdle, it has been often questioned whether it is possible or desired to reuse both bottles and caps in the absence of a new cap or a standard bottle/cork. Upon this consideration the scope of the question may also be expanded other readily available bottles used for wine or other similar spirits such as Port, Scotch, Brandy, Champagne, or Liquors.

As such the question remains if is can be done, and if it is desirable. Since studies on these techniques completed for commercial use can not be extrapolated to home techniques due to differences in equipment and the possible reusing caps, the answer remains contested. The primary two concerns are A) effect on taste and shelf life and B) will these bottles maintain a seal on repeated use.

This experiment hopes to answer these questions by controlling various factors and determining if bottle type effects taste or ability to effectively seal wine for home use in order to justify or discourage the use of perhaps unorthodox bottling options.

*Hypotheses​*

*Research Problem A*

What is the effect of various bottle types including standard corked bottles, screw top wine bottles, screw top liquor bottles, champagne bottles, and bottles using preformed corks, on the taste of ageing apfelwein

Hypotheses

Null Hypothesis: The perceived taste of aged apfelwein bottled with standard bottles and corks will not differ from aged apfelwein bottling using other methods. Alternative Hypothesis: Bottle type will result in perceived improvements or degradations in taste compared to standard corked bottles.

*Research Problem B*

What effect do various bottle types including standard corked bottles, screw top wine bottles, screw top liquor bottles, champagne bottles, and bottles using preformed corks have on the ability to maintain leak free seal? 

Null Hypothesis: The bottle type and method of sealing will not affect its ability to maintain a leak free seal. Alternative Hypothesis: Bottle type will result in improved or degraded ability to maintain a leak free seal.


*Experimental Design​* 
Apfelwein was created by the following method. Lalvin EC1118 yeast was substituted in lieu of the recommended Montrachet. Apfelwiein was allowed to ferment till dry and clear and additionally bulk aged " sur lie" for a period of 5 months undisturbed from time of yeast drop. Initial taste suggest a successful batch, dominant notes of astringency and tartness. 

16.2 liters (4 gallons) was siphoned out of carboy into a bucket to ensure uniform sample free of sediment. It was then degassed via drill and stir rod for a period of 5min. This completed, wine was bottled.

Bottles used for the experiment were cleaned with water and sanitized with potassium metabisulfite (K Met). Bottles used included:

10 Corked "standard" wine bottles
2 bottles using original preformed corks (one Irish Whisky, One Cognac)
2 Wine bottles using original screw tops caps
2 Liquor bottles using original screw top caps
2 Champagne bottles using preformed corks (Whisky corks, hand fitted)

Original caps and corks (excluding those for standard bottles) were soaked in K Met solution for 2 hours and air dried prior to bottling. At time of bottling they were again sprayed with K Met solution.

Bottles are to be aged for 1 week standing. At this time initial starting volume lines were indicated via sticker. After initial week bottles are to be turned on their side and aged a further 23 weeks.

During the aging period, bottles will be monitored for leaking. Following aging, volumes will be measures for any decrease not otherwise detected.

Effect on taste will be judged with a given test bottle being compared against a standard bottle as a control reference. They will be judged on two scales only, difference or no difference and better, worse, same. The complexities of character will not be scored but may be noted. The data will be recorded and used for statistics at a later time. As this in a triple blind study, we are not controlling for effects of statistical design or bias from this design. Tasting will take place in a A then B, B then A format to control for any primacy effects and will take place by the "sip" rather than the glass. Volume per "sip" will not be controlled. Tasting will take place in a blinded fashion by being poured into identical glasses marked underneath and mixed to prevent bias against bottle method. The study will not control for experience of taster. Tasters may be reused for new comparisons but not duplicated comparisons (i.e. results from a single taster who has completed comparison of standard vs screw top as well as standard vs champagne bottle can be allowed for each individual comparison, while the same taster can not be included for two individual tastings of standard vs screw). Duplicated data of this type may be recorded for test-retest reliability and to ensure consistency between batches of bottles. The study will control for overindulgence by limiting tasting for this experiment only when no prior drinking has taken place and no more than 2 contrast comparisons per sitting. Aeration after opening bottles will not be formally controlled although best efforts allow the same amount of aeration will be attempted. Please note it is being assumed that spoiling wine will result in changes in taste and as such how long wine will "keep" under these bottle types is only being testing along side taste and not beyond 6 months at this time.

*Results*​
Check back later!!

*SHORT VERSION:*

Its a contested issue whether we can reuse screw top wine bottles or other non traditional bottles (i.e. Port, Scotch, Brandy, Champagne, or Liquors) in home wine making. Some report they do it while others report it shouldn't be done. I've decided to try a few unconventional techniques in a controlled study and see if there is any effect on taste or leakage as it would be of advantage to many at least have the _option_ of using other bottles and corking methods when stockpiles run low or when availability is an issue (especially by region).


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## buddy

Sounds like a good experiment. I'm curious to see what the results will be.
I'd be willing to offer up a side bet on how it will turn out but that would put the impartiality of the test into question.


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## robie

You can google something like:
screw caps .vs. corks wine
and get some idea of what the experts are saying.

Each has its advantage and of course its disadvantage.


I can't rememeber just where I read it (or if I really did read it!), but I believe it is hard to get the same screw cap size that many commercial bottlers use.

One article I red said that the torque with which a screw cap is applied is very critical for long term ageing.


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## djrockinsteve

In comparison it is good to maintain a controlled atmosphere/environment but everyday environments change. Temps. changes, movement whether laying or standing. Bounced around in a car being transported to another home. 

These and more will also test each seals capability. Yes it will be interesting to see results.


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## cpfan

robie said:


> One article I red said that the torque with which a screw cap is applied is very critical for long term ageing.


Commercial Stelvin style screw caps are applied as a sleeve and then formed to the bottle with rollers. At least, that's how I interpret the description. I would LOVE to see the process close-up, in slow-mo. (A suggestion for "How Things are Made".) No torque neeeded.

Steve


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## Drez

robie said:


> You can google something like:
> screw caps .vs. corks wine
> and get some idea of what the experts are saying.
> 
> Each has its advantage and of course its disadvantage.



The topic of screw cap vs cork _on its own _is certainly covered ad nauseum. Sadly (for us) experts mostly focus on discussing commercial methods and so its up to us to validate feasible in house methods which is a whole new topic. 



djrockinsteve said:


> In comparison it is good to maintain a controlled atmosphere/environment but everyday environments change. Temps. changes, movement whether laying or standing. Bounced around in a car being transported to another home.
> 
> These and more will also test each seals capability. Yes it will be interesting to see results.



True. It is my hope, however, that pending positive results in at least one alternative bottling method, other people will might follow suit and try it and repot back adding to the collective wealth of knowledge. 

Its a fine balance, too little control and the results can't be interpreted as you can't seperate the factors contributing to a result, too much control and the real world applicapplity suffers.



cpfan said:


> Commercial Stelvin style screw caps are applied as a sleeve and then formed to the bottle with rollers. At least, that's how I interpret the description. I would LOVE to see the process close-up, in slow-mo. (A suggestion for "How Things are Made".) No torque neeeded.
> Steve



+1 Would love to see the process

Most of the wine tours I've been on have skipped this side of the equation



buddy said:


> I'd be willing to offer up a side bet on how it will turn out but that would put the impartiality of the test into question.



I too have my preconceived notions, but its fun to challenge these


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## BigDfromTN

Looks like its been 3, nearly 4 months now.

Any news to report?


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## Drez

*Updates*

I've had several requests for interim updates so here they are!

1) I have no official results yet as in order to preserve this experiment, I've taken the test bottles and sealed them up to avoid temptation of sampling till December.

2) Regarding leaking. As of present I can say no signs of leakage have been noted. Actual volume has not yet been measured as test bottles remain sealed.

3) At risk of bias I will share some thoughts on spoilage at this time. Other bottles of the same batch of Apfelwein, not included among those set aside for experimentation, have been sampled in the past months. There appears to be no noticeable difference in taste among the different bottle stopping methods although there have been no side by side comparisons to date. Subjectively, there may have been more CO2 in a couple of the bottles sampled that had been stopped in unconventional manners although again these observations are somewhat uncontrolled. Other than this the only aversive side effect of bottle stopping with in the listed "unconventional" styles have been in a single bottle fitted with a preformed cork. It appears during the standing period, CO2 forced it out several mm and some discolouration was noted in the bottles neck. Any effect on taste can not be surmised at this time. The cork was refitted and stored along with the rest of the bottles and remains un-sampled. Picture below. 

I will have more updates at earliest in December, more realistically in the early new year to allow for some controlled tasting

Hope this helps!
Best
A


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## WVMountaineerJack

Where is your control that shows you what your wine will taste like when its spoiled? Maybe you put so much KMeta in your wine it wont spoil no matter what. We bought a bottle of blackberry wine in a halfgallon whiskey bottle sealed with an old bottle cork and wax, it was 30 when we got it, drank part of it and rebottled the rest with a shot of KMeta. I think reusing old caps is a good way to spoil a batch, even if its only 1 batch of wine you are being such a cheapscape to worry about what some new screwcaps cost? Also you should have included zorks in your experiment as they will fit over many different bottle types.

Crackedcork


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## Drez

I think you fail to grasp a few key aspects of this experiment.

A)


CrackedCork said:


> Where is your control that shows you what your wine will taste like when its spoiled?



The control in this experiment is against traditional corking methods. No other control is needed. You don't test a new medication against nothing you test it against the gold standard to see if its better/worse/no different. If you test against a "spoiled" control you would have a very hard time measuring degree as a poor corking method might be better than fully spoiled wine but still worse than your usual corking method. Let alone tasting against a know bad wine would be awful and controling degrees of spoilage in the control would be another unwanted headache (and a crime)

B)


CrackedCork said:


> Maybe you put so much KMeta in your wine it wont spoil no matter what.



Possible. If so then the experiment is till valid. It shows that bottling method is an insignificant factor in the face of KMeta and would imply you can use any of the other methods without fail if KMeta is used. However, as per the described methodology KMeta was only used in sterilizing the bottles, not in preservation. So moot point.

B)


CrackedCork said:


> I think reusing old caps is a good way to spoil a batch, even if its only 1 batch of wine.....



Key point is that you THINK its a good way to spoil a batch. Many people think this and may others think otherwise. A great many people think all sorts of things in this hobby with good reason and if many cases with out good reason. Part of the very purpose of this experiment is to be better able to say with some authority I KNOW rather than I THINK.

C)


CrackedCork said:


> ....you are being such a cheapscape to worry about what some new screwcaps cost?



This experiment has very little to do with the "cost" of corks, arriving at such a conclusion is rather presumptuous. The introduction explains some of this. It has to do with availability by region (ie in OZ where screw tops are almost exclusively available), it has to do with convenience and availability at the time (Ie I have 28 bottles corks and could do the last 4 with screw tops if it would work...) it has to do with the quest for knowledge.

When screw tops came out they were met with the same sort of resistance as this but if testing and persistence did not take place this industry changing even would never have happened. We should not continue doing things a certain way simply because it works that way or because its always been done that way, we should always be questing for alternatives and asking questions otherwise there is never progression.



CrackedCork said:


> Also you should have included zorks



D) Zorks, flip tops and a few other techniques are certainly worth trying. I used what was available as it approximates real world situations for me. Further I would argue they are already considered more "acceptable" and thus testing them would be less informative but feel free to do a little experiment with them and any other methods you can think of. I would give you accolades for adding to the body of knowledge in this hobby.


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## Sirs

Drez I for one am glad your doing this and thank you for it. Even though we don't know how accurate your results may be, I'm pretty sure they would probly be about like what the average person trying to bottle something in one of these bottles would do. So when you do post your results I think the average winemaker will be able to use your findings to determine if they could use these different types of bottles for their wine. Thanks again and waiting to see your results


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## toddrod

I reuse the screw top wine bottle all the time and have not had a problem yet.


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## SLOweather

By my calcs, it's now been >45 weeks. Any conclusions, Drez?


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## Drez

This experiment is still active an ongoing. 

A few bottles have already been sampled but more than 2/3s remain. The reason for slow progression is in order to have statistical power I need to have a big enough sample size and so I need to try wines with more than a couple people to do the taste samples. Summer months will be best to accommodate this I think. 

For Part B, I essentially "know" the result already but I have to correct for volumetric differences in each of the bottles (i.e. 5ml in a skinny neck bottle vs 5ml in a thick neck bottle) and so I can't run the ANOVA till all bottles are empty 

Glad to hear there is though, trust I have not forgotten about this.


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## Drokk

What a very nice thread, ive just started wine making and would love to hear your results.
How did it go?


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## tchuklobrau

Drez unless I missed it somewhere I have a question. Understanding that the experiment is still ongoing, have you suffered any leaks from the reused screw on caps? I ask cause the one time I tried reusing caps, i had almost a 50% leak-good seal ratio. So kinda wondering if I screwed up screwing the caps on or if you are having leak issues as well.


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## Drez

Sorry that I dont have complete results yet; The experiment is _still_ ongoing. Half of the bottles have undergone tasting at this point and I'm just waiting on some warmer BBQ weather to have people over get the rest of these bottles consumed.

At the risk of spoiling the anticipation, there was some inconsistent leakage with screw top bottles so I would say no you did not do anything wrong.


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## Xipher7934

Just found this by searching about screw tops. I'm brewing a batch of mead and was wondering about using some screw-top wine bottles that I have around for bottling it.

I'm so glad that someone's doing this and being properly scientific about it. I find so many forums are filled with personal opinion and worry, and very little fact.

I'll be eager to see the final results.


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## fabrictodyefor

I too am new at this wine making, and was thinking of reusing screw-top lids, but thought to "seal" around the screw-top with paraffin wax. Any thoughts?


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## FTC Wines

In my early years of wine making bottles were scarce, so I bottled some of my wine in 3l & 4L jugs (think Carlo Rossi). I reused the screw caps & sealed them in a wax bath, dipping 3-4 times. Some of these jugs were not opened for 3 years, stored upright, never had a problem. This is also how I "long termed aged" my wines. In a bottle it was too easy to open & DRINK, in a sealed jug put away I forgot about them! Roy


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## fabrictodyefor

I was also told it is ok to reuse the "plastic" corks. However when I opened a bottle of wine this evening, I kind of wondered about the hole left by the corkscrew! I am a way off from bottling, but want to be prepared for my first batch of choke cherry wine!


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## FTC Wines

I would never reuse a "plastic"cork, sure that the cork screw hole would cause problems for you. Real corks at 18 cents each are too cheap NOT to use. Roy


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## fabrictodyefor

Thanks, you "hear" so much, and some things sound ok, and others don't. A new adventure, this wine making!


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## Boatboy24

Just for fun, I once tried filling a bottle with water and re-corking with a used synthetic cork. I set it on its side and within five seconds, there was water seeping through it.


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## fabrictodyefor

yep, yesterday I re-corked a bottle of wine with the plastic cork, a white that we did not finish, and when I put it back in the fridge on it's side it started to leak! there is so much to learn about this stuff!!!! Got my head spinning sometimes


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## thailandnotes

Will be very interested in the results of this. One question I have is in the cork vs. screwtop debate is the different volumes. If I fill a screwtop bottle perfectly to the top with water and funnel it into a empty cork bottle, it appears the both have the exact same volume. However the cork eliminates at least 12 ml of that space whereas the screwtop subtracts none. Do you get more wine buying a screwtop or is there a different amount of gas in the bottle?

Can't believe this thread ended without results being reported.

Can anyone link to other similar more recent threads?


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## Stressbaby

'Tis disappointing to see such a well designed study never get published.
Publication bias is more often a problem with negative results, although in this case a "negative result" may actually be the alternative hypothesis.


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## jensmith

I have reused screw cap bottles for the last two years. I bottle a few out of each batch with them. I use them for first drinking or guifts. After I put the cap on I set them on their side for a couple of days. Almost none leaked. Those that did just needed a quarter turn. Two I have tossed. Most can be used three times. After the leak test I store them as I would my corked bottles. I use both wine and other glass bottles that had alcahol in them. 
I opened a tequla bottle of wine last week that was a year old. Stored on its side down in the damp moldy celler. After I wiped the mold off the cap I opened it. The wine was just as good as when I bottled it. (Not a big mold problem, just a little during the hot humid summer) If any reused cap was going to fail that flimsy metal tequla cap covered in mold would have been it. 
This is by no means scientific or a golden rule, but every wine I bottled in a reused screw cap has been fine. Just as long as you have no leaks to start with all has been fine. 
Those new caps that don't fit normal bottles I would not trust! They only have two threads, not enough for a good seal. Used once may be fine, but not several times. 
Just my observations. Not a study.


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