# Improving the Nose



## the_rayway (Feb 7, 2015)

Hey All,
If there is one thing that seems to be lacking in my fruit wines and meads so far, it's nose.

Each wine has a lovely taste, good legs, body and mouthfeel for the 'style'. But they all have a slightly 'chemical' nose on them. I find it really reduces the enjoyment and flavour.

Wondering if it's a) over-sulfiting, or b) the no-rinse solution I use on the wine bottles, or c) something I'm just totally missing. 

Does anyone else have this issue? It does not seem to be a problem in my kit wines.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Feb 7, 2015)

I always rinse the no rinse stuff before using it. For adding nose some strawberries in the secondary does wonders, not so much that it fills the room up with strawberry, just enough to carry the other scents along with it. WVMJ


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## seth8530 (Feb 7, 2015)

If you are making mead and the nose is not coming through I would look at a couple places. A) the quality of the honey being used. B) The quality of the fermentation. Would you mind describing A and B and perhaps I could see if something comes to mind?


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## cimbaliw (Feb 7, 2015)

As a kit weenie, the most nose I've gotten are from the high end kits with skins. To a kit, they have been intensely fragrant if not floral. I've never tried, but have often wondered if using a joeswine style fpack in the primary would yield the same results. 

BC


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## Deezil (Feb 7, 2015)

I would be more inclined to lean towards the no-rinse solution. I only own two products for cleaning and sanitizing - OxyClean and K-Meta. The OxyClean get rinsed away several times, until I no longer smell it in the glass. The K-Meta I don't worry so much about. So ill OxyClean the whole batch of bottles, rinse them clean and then run K-Meta through them, pouring out the extra just prior to bottling.

But it doesn't affect your kit wines?
Do your fruit wines and meads have a nice nose prior to bottling?


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## Bergmann (Feb 7, 2015)

I find that slow non aggressive ferments tend to leave a better nose than a burner yeast.


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## Arne (Feb 7, 2015)

Have you tried decanting and letting it breathe for an hour or two?? Mite just let the chemical odor go away. Arne.


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## grapeman (Feb 8, 2015)

You don't mention how much fruit you use in the wines. Generally the more you use, the more you get the aromas of that fruit. Like Bergman noted, use a nice slow yeast so it doesn't blow off the aromatics. Cotes des blancs gets used a lot by me for whites and is also recommended for meads. It doesn't foam a lot but when it gets going good you can see things rolling around inside it so you know it is doing it's job.

I would rinse the no-rinse product and then use k-meta to sanitize the bottles. Some of those no-rinse products clain to sanitize the bottles but I don't like to do it that way because they can leave a white residue on the bottles like waterspots.


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## joeswine (Feb 8, 2015)

*Nose or not to??*

I think nose is a subject with a lot of contradictions,I think that most wines have very little nose do to the product of *origin* meaning the_* base*_. If it has good_ structure_ and the yeast s complementing the base then it will in most cases have some nose, however all to often even with *grapes* and *fresh* *juice *as well as *kits* the nose is either lost or faint. In fruit wines then_ 5/6 lbs._. per gallon rule of thumb is ok,depending on the quality of the fruit and it's sugars, and structure usually when I make a fruit wine, I add a fresh fpac of the same *fruit base* after the primary and secondary racking a third soaking if you will a reintroduction of the original flavor profile, this is one way to introduce the nose back into the base and to assure the alcohol hasn't over taken the base.THIS them re-characterizes the wine . JUST my thoughts.


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## the_rayway (Feb 8, 2015)

Hi Everyone! Thanks for the feedback!
It's not just one wine/mead, it's all different kinds. Different yeasts, white sugar, different honeys (sunflower, clover, wildflower), fruit anywhere from 3-6lbs per gallon. 

The only thing from all the feedback I can see as being across the board is my no-rinse sanitizer. It's something I've always used, right from the first batch. The guy at the LHBS told me it was the best one to use. Thinking that I will do a full rinse off of all the bottles on my next batches. One has a very light nose (Jasmine Tea mead), and the other is really nice and full (Tart cherry Wine). So I'm hoping I won't lose them this time. 

If there isn't a noticeable difference, I will come back to the drawing board.


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## Frognostic (Feb 8, 2015)

I can relate as a good proportion of the drinks I've made had an off aroma. I think it was in part due to using bleach-based sanitizers such as Miltons but other factors such as fermenting at too high a temperatures almost certainly came into play. Letting it sit on the lees too long probably didn't help either.

A friend of mine, who is also a home-brewer and has had similar problems, is of the opinion that the use of rubber bungs creates off-aromas and that this problem can be remedied with the use of cork stoppers. 

In the case of one cider I made that smelled unpleasant there was a lot of suspended sediment (not yeast) in it that dropped to the bottom after racking, so I'm hoping the nose might have improved since the cider has turned from an opaque cream to a transparent brown.


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## seth8530 (Feb 8, 2015)

I am going to be the dissenting opinion then and say that I highly doubt it is your no rinse sanitizer... I have a hard time imagining most brewing sanatizers are designed in such a way that they will leave a bad taste in your beer/mead.


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## the_rayway (Feb 11, 2015)

Darn @seth8530 ! I bottled those two batches last night. Wish I had seen your reply before I did it 

My wondering is not that they will leave a bad taste, because they taste lovely. It's the nose. Do you think there is a chance the chemicals or k-meta would kill the smell of the wine? Or perhaps my water? It's city water. Or my dishwasher detergent?? Lol, I'm feeling a little helpless here.

The kits I make are mostly reds or mist-style, but they seem to smell just fine. The two 'regular' white kits I've done, however, seem to be lacking on the nose as well. As in there isn't any. Not that it's chemical.


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## seth8530 (Feb 11, 2015)

To give you an idea, many brewers use a no rinse sanatizer called star san. And often times, they rinse the bottle with the solution and the next thing that is going in is the beer. Now unless you are drastically over doing it, I doubt that is the issue. 

As far as kmeta, I doubt that is the issue as well unless you are once again way over doing it. Plus, Kmeta tends to have a pretty obvious smell to it, so you should be able to identify it if that is the issue. Keep in mind Kmeta is not a no rinse sanatizer.

If the water taste good, then I doubt it is the water. Things like water chemistry tend to matter more in beer land than in wine land.


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## Turock (Feb 20, 2015)

If the aroma was from too much sulfite, it would smell like a burnt match. I doubt that is your issue. An aroma of "chemicals" is hard to track down. But let me say that certain esters may contribute to this. How long are you bulk aging? If you are giving wines short aging times, then it's possible it may be due to certain esters. Giving wines more time in bulk aging can cause these offending esters to drop out.

As far as fruit wines not having enough nose, eliminating water additions will give your fruit wines more intense nose and flavor.

Tap water certainly has chemicals, as we all know. But I think many people make great wines using it. However, not all tap water is equal because of the natural minerals that vary from location to location. Is it possible this is causing the problem? Who knows. We don't use tap water. We have a couple of spring water suppliers nearby and use that instead of treated municipal suppliers.

If you think it's from the detergent you're using, then try not using it. I don't like dish detergent for bottle washing. I use PBW. It's great at attacking sediments in bottles and we also use it for cleaning vats,etc. Then all we use to sanitize is meta.

How do you do your ferments? Are they hot and fast or cool and slow? Many wines--meaning fruit and whites--will have far better nose when done as cool ferments.

Meta is not a no rinse sanitizer????? Never heard such a thing. You should never rinse meta with water--it's defeating the purpose of it.


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## the_rayway (Feb 20, 2015)

Hey Turock, thanks for jumping in! I had a PM conversation with Seth about a bunch of this. I'm going to do a bit of pre-planning and getting some better nutrients, and start cooling down the ferments to slow them up and preserve some of the nose. I'm also going to try leaving my water (if using) out overnight to drive off some of the chemicals/chlorine and flouride in the water.

Much of my earlier stuff was bottled right away, but some of my 'newer' stuff has spent a good year in the carboy aging. Also, my ferments have become more involved and are using better techniques than I started of with, and my fruit content has increased substantially, which should all make these taste and smell better.

I use Aseptox (sp?) as my no-rinse sanitizer, it was the one suggested by the LHBS when I started.

Once I've got some new ferments going I will report back on if things have improved on this.


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## Turock (Feb 20, 2015)

Ya know---a lot of this could be due to how you're performing your ferments. Yes, you're becoming more experienced now--taking more techniques into consideration. That alone, will help.

I was reading an article from lallemand a while back, and thru testing they discovered that vitamins are VERY important in a ferment. Almost more important than the nitrogen in nutrients. I was surprised by this. So yeah--maybe paying more attention to the better nutrients would be a good thing. We've used them for quite some time now. Can't say we see a difference, but we never have problem ferments and every wine comes out nice.

That's a good idea to let the water sit to drive off some of the chlorine. Not a bad idea. No one knows how all these little things can come together to create a problem. A whole bunch of chemical reactions that's above MY pay grade, let me tell ya.


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## PhilDarby (Feb 20, 2015)

A recent trick ive figured out that works ok, is to use cake flavouring, which some might consider cheating or whatever, but, for example in my case I made a cherry and strawberry wine (seperate batches of wine) by adding flavouring at a dose of 1ml per gallon, at a time, to the finished wine, you can hit a good balance of flavour and smell, if your wine is a bit thin or the bias on the flavour isn't what u intended, it also ages well too and the flavour comes out more as u age it a bit, so, initially 1 ml only per gallon of whatever flavour your wine was, in my case cherry and strawberry etc.

My thinking here is that, it will improve the smell, of the wine as well as the flavour.

This is something im still experimenting with, but, flavours that contain oils are no good, it must be propylene glycol based flavour, to mix well with the wine.

My initial testing with this, has so far been succesfull, apart from honey cake flavouring which gives a very strong taste of rose petal type flavouring, so, I wouldn't try this idea on a mead.

Leaving the wine sitting on sediment, ive found causes off smells, so these days I tend to rack as soon as the ferment starts to dissipate, some fruits can give off smells as well, which very often clear up after aging them a bit and racking. (ie) in my experience some, peach and single apple type brews.

What is your technique for sulphating, one campden tablet per gallon is prob about right imo, contrary to popular practice I tend to sulphate and then bottle after a day or two, as I hate the taste and smell of sulphate.

Also, Ive just read back and I prefer a slow ferment as well, around 18 to 20 degrees if possible.

Just been thinking, if your source of fruit is from a cheap or other free type of source ie fruit that has been sat on the floor etc be sure to use a campden tablet before pitching the yeast give about 48 hours before pitching the yeast.

Cant off hand think of anything else to add.


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## cooldood (Feb 20, 2015)

sorry I had to


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## Winorick (Feb 21, 2015)

I must have just been lucky for the past 45 years. I use campden tabs at the original fermentation, rarely at the first racking, usually at the second & never at the 3rd, 4th, or 5th. I use well water that has gone thru the softener. I use meta bisulfate for the bottles at bottling and then drain the bottles. I've NEVER had a problem with the wine turning bad. Some wines have better aromas than others - generally the ones from fresh fruits are better. Dried or fresh flower are fine. The wild rose petal wine smells like a bouquet of roses. 

Why is all of the sanitizers needed?


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## Turock (Feb 21, 2015)

Why do people use antibacterial handsoaps? I think many people are cousins of Sheldon on Big Bang--they are afraid of germs. Sheldon qualifies that statement by saying,"Not all germs!! Only the germs that can kill me."

I also take a minimalistic approach to sanitizing. I clean gunky things with PBW and sanitize with meta. That's it. And really ALL that's needed. The acid and alcohol in a wine, along with meta for preservation, do more for sanitizing wine than all the outside efforts most of us take.


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## Floandgary (Feb 21, 2015)

The seemingly pronounced call for sanitizers falls in the realm of generalities. With experience in this craft, most of us have come to understand the function of said sanitizers and following good habits, have found a reduced need of them..


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