# Mead and Cider finish fermentation tasting sour/bitter



## brottman (Nov 1, 2014)

So far, I have done both a mead and a cider. In the mead I used Lalvin EC-1118, and the cider I used Red Star Montrachet. Both me and my wife agree that both the cider and the mead taste sour and/or bitter. These are both still young, but I'm wondering -- is this normal?


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## seth8530 (Nov 1, 2014)

Depends on what you mean by sour and bitter. More details would help. It is not abnormal for young wine to taste kind of off to be honest.


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## Arne (Nov 1, 2014)

I am guessing you have fermented all the sugars out of them and they will have kind of a sour taste to them. Did you check your acid level? Too much can give it a bitter taste. Try drawing a little glass and mix a little honey with it. Now taste and if needed a little more honey. If you decide the whole batch needs to be sweetened, don't forget to stabilize it first. A lot of the funny tastes will probably go away with time, tho. Good luck with it, Arne.


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## brottman (Nov 1, 2014)

The cider was using Edworts recipe and i hadn't done anything to it yet except rack it. I used honey to backsweeten the Mead, which helped, but didn't completely cover up the bitter taste. It only seems to be somewhat masking it and not really fixing it. I will check the pH when I return home tomorrow. 

I guess I come back to my original question - do young meads or ciders typically present with a bitterness to them?


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## seth8530 (Nov 1, 2014)

They can, but back to the original answer, it all depends.


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## gabryl1312 (Nov 1, 2014)

why can't you guys give us a straight answer or is it that you don't know. Like you said it depends , so what are the depending factors or you don't know?


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## gabryl1312 (Nov 1, 2014)

Ooooooooo ooooooooo ooooooooo


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## seth8530 (Nov 1, 2014)

gabryl1312 said:


> why can't you guys give us a straight answer or is it that you don't know. Like you said it depends , so what are the depending factors or you don't know?





gabryl1312 said:


> Ooooooooo ooooooooo ooooooooo



Because their are very many factors that go into explaining why a mead might taste bitter once it is done fermenting. Ie, temperature fermented at, yeast strain used, the quality and type of fruit used if any, what are the acid levels, what kind of residual sugar are we looking at, was something added that really piled on the tannis, if fruit was used did it have a lot of stems.. Sometimes, it needs to age.... Like I said it depends.

Now, do you have something a little bit less snide to come back with?


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## brottman (Nov 1, 2014)

Yikes! Seth I very much appreciate you trying to help. 

gabryl1312 - Next time you want to make an *** of yourself, please do it in your own thread. Your words and your thread hijack are very rude. I would suggest that you actually listen to these guys who have been doing this for a long time. I'm here to learn.


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## brottman (Nov 1, 2014)

I'll try to provide some more info: The Cider followed Edworts Apfelwein at http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/edworts-apfelwein-33986/ except that I boosted SG to 1.076 with cane sugar. Used Red Star Montrachet.

The Mead was just honey + water to 6 gallons @ 1.08
Yeast was EC-1118 (I know - bad choice)

Both were fermentation at an ambient temperature of about 68-70. I don't know must temps because I did not yet have my thermometer. 
Both received a relaxed SNA treatment.

They obviously taste different from each other, and both young. However, I would say that for some really weird reason they both exhibit the exact same bitter aspect about them. I'm not sure exactly what I'm tasting but the quality of that off-taste is identical in both of them. I've also done 2 wine kits, plus I've now finish the primary stage of a Shiraz fresh juice bucket. None of these kits or buckets have had he bitterness issue that I'm experiencing with mead or cider.

Once again - thanks for your advice!


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## gabryl1312 (Nov 1, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Because their are very many factors that go into explaining why a mead might taste bitter once it is done fermenting. Ie, temperature fermented at, yeast strain used, the quality and type of fruit used if any, what are the acid levels, what kind of residual sugar are we looking at, was something added that really piled on the tannis, if fruit was used did it have a lot of stems.. Sometimes, it needs to age.... Like I said it depends.
> 
> Now, do you have something a little bit less snide to come back with?



I'm not trying to mock you it was just a problem trying to erase a duplicate comment So just put a Bunch of ooooo, I'm not trying to mock you I'm just trying to get a clear answer and using the info to be able to get the proper questions for you guys to answer. I'm basically begging you for answers


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## brottman (Nov 1, 2014)

gabryl1312 said:


> I'm not trying to mock you it was just a problem trying to erase a duplicate comment So just put a Bunch of ooooo, I'm not trying to mock you I'm just trying to get a clear answer and using the info to be able to get the proper questions for you guys to answer. I'm basically begging you for answers



Try re-reading your first post as if someone wrote that to you after you tried to help them. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but it came off as very disrespecting.


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## gabryl1312 (Nov 1, 2014)

brottman said:


> Yikes! Seth I very much appreciate you trying to help.
> 
> gabryl1312 - Next time you want to make an *** of yourself, please do it in your own thread. Your words and your thread hijack are very rude. I would suggest that you actually listen to these guys who have been doing this for a long time. I'm here to learn.



wow you misunderstood my comment took me out of context and assume I'm trying to mock somebody, you know what they say about people that assume right. truthfully the only thing that I see that came out in my message it's frustration In looking for the answers. you know where you can put your thread because you're rude and you could have just asked me to clarify my response.


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## BernardSmith (Nov 1, 2014)

Gabryl1312, When there are many variables involved it is not possible to provide a simple answer until every variable has been accounted for. As Seth suggests, there could be many , many reasons for sour taste and a sour taste is not the same as a bitter taste and there could be many reasons for there to be a bitter taste (including contamination by bacteria)... so it is easy for anyone to offer a possible candidate answer, but that answer is unlikely to be accurate or useful. That said, the depending factors are all located in the specific ingredients used, the details of the recipe used and the actual techniques and processes used... The depending factors also depend on the person raising the question: if Brottman for example, was expecting that mead or cider that had fermented dry (ie no longer had any residual sugar) would somehow taste "sweet" because honey is sweet and apples have a natural sweetness, then the surprise of tasting the flavor of honey or apples after all the sugar (the sweetness) has been removed leaving only the flavor of the honey itself or the flavor of the apples, may be what we are in fact talking about rather than a question about a problem. 
Now, apples, for example, have as their basic acid , malic acid and malic acid tastes very sour*(think a good Grannie Smith)...When you remove all the sugar the acids in the apple come to the front of the flavor profile because there is no sweetness. And in your mouth the area of your tongue sensitive to acids is activated without any balance from the area that is sensitive to sweetness. 
Over time, an aged cider will allow chemical processes to transform malic acid to lactic acid and lactic acid is not nearly as bitter tasting as malic... So, "it depends" is a really good answer... and what it depends on is in fact the detailed account that only Brottman can possibly provide.

*I am not a chemist but I believe that acids taste sour but alkali can taste bitter. Tannin is bitter, not sour (so black tea , for example, adds bitterness to fruit wines or meads, not "sourness", but acids are used to add a "kick" of sourness (lemon juice, for example, or acid blend - and I think that CO2 creates carbonic acid which is another possible source of sometimes unexpected sourness...)


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## brottman (Nov 1, 2014)

Just in case it got missed, here are more details:



brottman said:


> I'll try to provide some more info: The Cider followed Edworts Apfelwein at http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/edworts-apfelwein-33986/ except that I boosted SG to 1.076 with cane sugar. Used Red Star Montrachet.
> 
> The Mead was just honey + water to 6 gallons @ 1.08
> Yeast was EC-1118 (I know - bad choice)
> ...


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

gabryl1312 said:


> I'm not trying to mock you it was just a problem trying to erase a duplicate comment So just put a Bunch of ooooo, I'm not trying to mock you I'm just trying to get a clear answer and using the info to be able to get the proper questions for you guys to answer. I'm basically begging you for answers



If that is what you really meant, I will take that.


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

brottman said:


> Just in case it got missed, here are more details:



I would use a different yeast than ec-1118 and perhaps have done a cooler ferment ( with a strain that could handle it) but all in all, I would not panic quite yet. I would give it some time, perhaps a bit of oak if you think that will work with what you got going on, and let this guy sit for a year and taste again and see what you think.

Age can do some good things for wine.


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