# The start. Readers beware....



## michiganfullsun (May 10, 2015)

Hello all. We have found this wonderful forum useful and have decided our wine love to the next level. I am in the progress of reading through all the posts in this subsection, I am only 5 pages deep so dar but can't help but write this.

We have taken some of our blueberry bushes out and want to plant some grape vines. We live in Western Michigan less than 2 miles from the lake as the crow flies. The soil is sandy loomis, well drained, and not sure oft he pH. From what I have read grapes like similar soil to blueberries so I do not think we are far off. We will get a meter and find pH this week.

I have a few questions..... Apart from here, what resources did you all find in your planting adventure. Michigan State has a lot of literature that we are currently researching. Currently we are working the soil where we intend to plant. From what we have read you can plant in the fall which is what we plan on doing. The area that er intend on planting is is what we refer to as two rows. They are 336 feet long and have 10 feet in between each row. What would you all suggest for spacing? We have read 4-6 feet.

So as far as questions so far... Here they are........

What spacing?
We want to try riesling, Cab Franc, Merlot, and another red
Where is a good place to get the vines/cuttings from
Is fall planting ok?
What trellis system would be best for all of these?
Are we in over our heads?


Any help would be much appreciated. I will continue to update this as we go.

Thanks!


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## terrymck (May 10, 2015)

The grape experts will be along later but i can thell you that Blueberries and grapes do not like the same PH. Blueberries need acid soil and grapes a more neutral. Forget the meter. Take a soil sample from the whole area; small scoops all over the planting area about 8 inches deep. combine that in a bucket and mix. Fill a sandwich baggie and take it to your nearest extention office. It will be connected to your ag college (Mich State?)


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## michiganfullsun (May 10, 2015)

Michigan state would be the nearest that I could think of. I know BBs like the more acidic but if I had to guess we are more close to 4-6. I'll still do the meter thing just to see what it is as I am curious now.


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## GreginND (May 10, 2015)

First - I would recommend you visit some of your local vineyards and talk with them. They will have the best information about growing grapes in West Michigan. My favorite red wines in MI come from Domaine Berrien. They are in Berrien Springs. I would talk with Wally the owner. You are there in the middle of wonderful grape growing regions.

For vinifera grapes 4 foot spacing should be fine. If you plant more vigorous hybrid varieties, I would go 6-8 feet.

You have chosen all vinifera varieties. I would suggest you get Marquette - a cold-hardy red variety. I'm not sure where you can source vines for the vinifera. Another question to ask the locals. They could suggest other white and red varieties that do well there too. For Marquette, I have had good luck with bare root vines from Northeastern Vine Supply.

In a cold climate, I would elect to plant the vines in spring so they can establish a good root system before going dormant for the winter. I would suggest you plan the site and put in the vines next year. Best time is probably around memorial day in May.

Trellis type will depend on vigor of your soil (get a soil test to find out nutrients) and variety of grape. Vinifera usually does well with VSP. I grow my marquette on a high wire cordon system. It's simpler than VSP. I don't think the vinifera does well on high wire, but I don't have the experience. More questions for your local folks.

"Are we in over our heads?"

Absolutely! It's tons of work. But it is a labor of love.


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## Runningwolf (May 10, 2015)

Greg, you mention 4' spacing. Wouldn't you want it wide enough for a tractor to get down the rows for spraying and mowing?


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## GreginND (May 10, 2015)

Runningwolf said:


> Greg, you mention 4' spacing. Wouldn't you want it wide enough for a tractor to get down the rows for spraying and mowing?



4 feet between the vines. The OP said the rows would be 10 feet apart.


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## Runningwolf (May 10, 2015)

My Bad, sorry about that. I should have reread it.


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## grapeman (May 11, 2015)

Shame on you Dan for not reading better.

I pretty much agree with Greg. Blueberries like a nice acid soil. Grapes, especially vinifera prefer it in the 6.2 to 6.5 range. 
A source for the vinifera would be Double A Vineyard in New York State near Buffalo. They have lots of useful information. Another one would be Grafted Grapevine, also in NYS. There may be more local sources.

Vertical Shoot Positioning (VSP) with 4 or 5 foot spacing would be about the best for you for the vinifera vines. If you were planting potted vines, fall would be alright, but bareroot will do best in the spring.


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## michiganfullsun (May 11, 2015)

Alright!!! It has been a hectic two days. I was only able to read a few more posts on forum, hopefully after studying tonight I can hit some more. I contacted the local Mich. State. extension office and left a message with the fruit guy. Hopefully I hear back from him in the next day or so. I also got the pH meter anyway as we have always wanted one. I am hoping to head out there tomorrow after work. I will take some pictures of the soil and area and post them here.

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help so far! I can't wait to share our progress as we go down this adventure.


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## michiganfullsun (May 12, 2015)

Well did not hear back from the extension office. Made it out to farm today. took multiple readings with meter. pH is anywhere from 6-6.75. Still will not do anything until I get soil sampled. If we do not hear back from the extension by Monday we will have our fertilizer guy run some samples. Attached a picture of the area. The trees to the right will be trimmed but this spot gets full sun almost all of the day. Rows run East to West. Not sure how this effects vines but we have berries going north/south and east/west. We have never been able to tell a difference.


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## michiganfullsun (May 21, 2015)

Well the results are in..... Our pH is much too low like you guys had guessed. My pH meter that I bought (advice was given to not buy one) was way off. Looks like I will be adding 50-70lbs per 1000 sqft this weekend. We are also going to go visit a local winery and see if we can get any advice. Like what their soils are as they are not that far away from us and about the same distance from the lake as we are. 

Through more research and the advice from here we will wait to plant till the fall.
The one question I do have that seems to vary on what I read is.. Should we set up the trellis system this fall? This way in the spring all we have to do is plant. Once again thanks for all the advice thus far.

Any Michigan guys out there??

Average soil pH on the farm is 4.8. 
Sulfer m3-ppm 28
Boron m3-ppm .3
Copper m3-ppm 1.3
Iron m3-ppm 217
Manganese m3-ppm7
Zinc m3-ppm 9
Phosphorus m3-ppm 135
Potassium m3-ppm 69
Magnesium m3-ppm 98
Calcium m3-ppm 382


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## dwhill40 (May 21, 2015)

I grow vinifera in naturally acid soil and they're doing great starting year three. Turn that lime in deep; lime doesn't migrate through the soil much at all. My topsoil is amended to near 6 and my subsoil is around 5. Read up on gypsum. While must people think it is for clay or for making the soil more acid that is not the whole story. Gypsum migrates 1000 times more readily than lime and will bind up the aluminum and prevent the vines from taking it up which is the reason most plants can't handle acid soil. It's all about the dirt. Read up on mycorrhizae while you at it. Good luck.


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## TonyR (May 22, 2015)

Hi and good luck. You are going to have major problems with those pine trees, if you are serious about putting the grapes in that spot you need to cut them down. There roots easily go 50 /60 feet from the trunk and they will suck all the nutrients from your vines. Happened to me. Had to cut down 40 pine.


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## michiganfullsun (May 23, 2015)

Happy Memorial Day weekend to all. Thank you to all that have served this great country.

We spread 200lbs of the lime today. Total square footage for where the rows of vines will be is about 4,000. Beautiful weather out. Yesterday we put down some stuff to kill of some bad vines that sprouted in the area where the bushes were. Once it takes effect and kills them we will till the rows. Once tilled, we will add more lime. Still doing research on the gypsum but will most likely be adding some with the lime.

The next project apart from tilling will be tree trimming/removal. We had planned on taking the pines out and with the comment before this reply we really plan on it now. 

Thanks again for all the tips/advice!!!


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## TonyR (May 24, 2015)

Thank you for the vet commit, if you have the equipment or the youth something you can think about for your soil. After you have it tilled a few times and limed it good, pick up a load of driveway type limestone, spread it over where you have tilled a few inches thick then till it in. Your soil will always be on the acidic side, like ours from W. PA.


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## tom6922 (May 25, 2015)

I would second the suggestion to plant some hybrids that can withstand the cold. There are many wineries in your area that can tell you how devastating the last two winters were on vinifera. Also I would only grow a few varietals, each one has its unique features and it gets quite complicated dealing with all the variables. Check out the MSU Viticulture Day in Benton Harbor.


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