# Autumn changes in the vineyard



## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 23, 2006)

I would be curious to hear from others what is happening in their vineyards as summer wanes and our vines start to make the changes they will need to make to winter over. Some folks have first or second year plants and won't need to worry about harvesting a crop, while others have that pleasure to look forward to. Some of us are futher north, while others are further south. How do your vines show that they are beginning to shut down? Is there color change to the leaves before they drop? Tell us when you get your first frost! If you get frosted in Texas, we northerners would love to hear about it.

Some of this info could prove useful to others. Northern Winos has already described how she needs to take some vines off the trellis to cover for the winter. Where it gets really cold I've read that we should loosen tension on the support wires a bit if they are really tight. Some of us may lay down compost or fertilizer in a few weeks, or cut the amount of watering being done. I, for one, would appreciate hearing tips and tricks. 

Bill


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 23, 2006)

Guess I could kick things off. I have 25 first year vines, 5 varieties. None put on flower clusters in early summer. Night time temperatures are just now falling into the upper 40's.

I just noticed yesterday that my Frontenac and St. Croix vines are showing some drying, dessicated leaf portions on lower leaves. Several of the small original leaves low on the vines have completely dried and yellowed. Only two of my 25 vines have not grown to their training wires. I will have to begin them anew next spring. Meantime, I think I'll spread a light application of rotted manure around them for additional nutrition. The degree of vigor shown by my 5 different varieties is interesting. The Frontenac are all over the place, lots of long laterals and vegetative growth. On the other hand the St. Pepin have very few leaves per vine and tiny short laterals, yet have easily reached their top wire and show good trunk thickness. St. Croix are fairly thick with leaves followed by Foch and then Landot Noir. Only Frontenac and St. Croix show leaf dessication.


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 23, 2006)

You sure have a nice variety of vines planted....would love to have more room to try some of those varieties. Will be interesting to see the progress over the years.
Your leaf yellowing just may be the nature of the variety...my Baltic Amber has been yellow all summer, then I read that it has a genetic trait of not absorbing magnesium from the soil, it looks like iron clorosis [spelling??], but don't know if Magnesium is iron...???? Anyone familiar with that???
Don't know if I would put rotted manure or compost down at this point....if you get early autumn rains and warm spells it could stimulate new growth, that would produce more soft tissue that would die in the cold winters....maybe wait till the leaves have fallen to apply any nitrogen and mulch in the north...
The same applies to roses...you don't want new growth in late summer...we quit dead heading roses in August up here, that makes the rose produce hips and shut down and harden off...think the same would apply to grapes.
I cringe when I canopy prune the leaves off the grapes, thinking it might stimulate new growth, but the fruit has to be exposed here for some varieties to ripen, so got to do it.
Good luck in your venture..




*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman (Aug 23, 2006)

Bill,
I will be sure to let you know what goes on here as it gets colder. So far I still have vigorous growing vines. I wish they would slow down and harden off some more. Probably the coming nights in the 40's and 50's will slow them down. The yellowing leaves could be Mg or Fe deficiency, but probably not bad. If your pH is between 6 and 7 you should be OK. Mg(Magnesium) and Fe(iron) are related like Na(sodium) and K(potasium) are. I also wouldn't put down manure yet-wait until mid September.


How about some updated pictures?


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 23, 2006)

appleman said:


> If your pH is between 6 and 7 you should be OK. Mg(Magnesium) and Fe(iron) are related like Na(sodium) and K(potasium) are. I also wouldn't put down manure yet-wait until mid September.



Thanks appleman, I wondered about the Mg and Fe being related, so I will put down some Fe in the spring and work it around the Baltic Amber plants. 
Our pH is a strong 7 here, so some stuff grows real well....have seen yellow leaves on a couple apple trees a couple years ago and worked some iron granules into the soil, it sure greened them up nicely.
Last year one older juice grape vine was yellow, I gave it some iron granules and it spruced up...this year it was nice and green and has loads of grapes, but...it is the only vine that hasn't ripened yet, it's sibling next to it is all ripened up, maybe it needed another shot of iron...?


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 23, 2006)

NW and Richard,
The U. Maine soil testing service did a soil analysis for me late last winter. It didn't cover testing for iron. I wonder if iron can be delivered via a foliar spray. Have either of you used foliar sprays for nutritional tweaking? Richard, please explain what you mean by Mg and Fe being "related". Thanks.


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## grapeman (Aug 23, 2006)

Yes, you can do a foliar feeding. Some of my soil this year was getting very acidic, so Fe and Mg were getting less available to the plants and some vines were showing deficiency. I got some liquid foliar feed and applied it late last week. The plants respond almost immediately to it. In hindsight, I probably should have waited until spring and just applied a fertilizer with trace minerals added. These are available and supply lesser nutrients. The vines have taken off growing like crazy and I'm hoping they harden off well this fall. I will look up where I got it from in the AM and post it here for you if you want to get some on hand for future use. By the way, I applied 4 ounces in 25 gallons of water and applied it to 250 vines. A quart cost about $15.00.


Think about the relationship of Sodium and Potasium - if you have high blood pressure and you want to lower sodium in your blood, eat bananas which are high in potassium. Fe and Mg work the same way. They both have similar looks for deficiencies in plants, but are caused by slightly different plant interactions- anyway just raise the pH if too low, otherwise supplement both and and things will be fine. Again, it's a little too late this year now to correct things unless they are severe.


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## grapeman (Aug 24, 2006)

Bill, 
I got the foliar supplement from Kalyx.com, an organic supply site-probably available eleswhere(they have a $30 minimum order if I remember right).The stuff is the Mineral Matrix
http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/284919.0/CategoryID/12000.0/SubCatID/2755.0/file.htm
I do not endorse this site, but had no complaints other than the product was drop shipped and took a week to get here, even though they are in the same state. The link above gives the breakdown of nutrients. Good luck with the vineyard - pictures soon please before the leaves freeze up there in Maine!*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 24, 2006)

IRON DEFICENCY....Last year I had asked the guy at the tree nursery what I should do about the yellowing apple trees....he said to take a claw hammer and gouge the dirt around the tree up to the drip line and sprinkle iron granules around it...I got some IRON SUCRATE Iron [Fe 50%] from the Ag Fertilizer plant..it was fairly cheap for a 25 # bag....figured I might be needing some for 90 Norway Pines we planted in a shelter belt, they tend to yellow when they are young in this high ph soil of 7+...so far they are doing really well.
Last year on a yellowing grape vine I use the granules as well as some Mir-Acid..from Miracle Gro..in a blue box, mix it with water...also good for your Hydrangeas and evergreens. You could see the vine suck up the Mir-Acid right away, it greened up on the tender tips if the vines first and gradually turned a nice dark green...that plant is slow to ripen this year....maybe needed another treatment...? BUT...it had a lot of foliage, so maybe from last years treatment the excess foliage kept the grapes from ripening...I just went out to look and since I cut off many leaves the fruit is ripening very quickly...
Don't think mature grape vines require much fertilizer, might make too much foliage, but the young plants all need a good boost to get started....*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 24, 2006)

Winter Vineyard Enimies...[for the far North]
Lack of snow cover for good root insulation and natural mulch.
Gnawing rodents.
Fluctuating temperatures to trigger deacclimation.
Brutal wind chills.


Winter Vineyard Friends...[for the far North]
Lots of snow to protect the roots.
Consistent temperatures.

You got anymore?????


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 24, 2006)

Thanks for the Kalyx info Richard. I am not sure that my vines actually need the boost that the product offers, especially at this time of year. I will check with my local lawn and garden center to see if they carry an equivalent product. NW's use of Mir-Acid could be worthwhile as a liquid addition to the soil for a small number of vines. I imagine it could get expensive for a large vineyard. I had planned in the back of my mind to annually dress the vines with local rotted cow manure since I get it for the garden anyway. I guess the best time to lay it down is after dormancy once the vines are established and several years old. Right now is what I am in a quandary about. It is their first year, and I'm not really sure if I should feed them something, and if so, what? I amended the soil with a magnesium lime in March and added a modest amount of manure since the soil analysis recommendation was to go easy on adding nitrogen. Most of the vines made good growth over the summer. The laggards may just be weaker specimens. Two of the three are at the shadiest end of the rows. It is hard to guess why they have been slower. All vines have been a healthy green for the duration of the summer. It is only in the last week that the leaf death I mentioned earlier has happened and I assume it has to do with seasonal change. My 4 three year old table grape vines all show signs of a major slowdown and leaf color change.

NW - I think you are right on in your list of vineyard enemies and friends. I might add hungry deer in the middle of winter to enemies, also extreme cold. To the list of friends, lets add an autumn that progresses smoothly from mild to cold temps over a long period, no sudden freezeups, and no ice storms! Thanks for your input


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 24, 2006)

We consider deer as large rodents..


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 28, 2006)

Bambi the rat?!


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## grapeman (Sep 11, 2006)

I am seeing more changes with the vines as autumn progresses. A couple varieties are beginning to get reddish lower leaves. Most varieties stems are continuing to harden off and change color to rusty brown.


A couple perplexing things I have noticed. The LaCrosse vines seem to think that they should begin growing thir primary buds. Thankfully this isn't widespread. Those buds for next year are beggining to swell to the point some look like spring budbreak! The second weird thing is some of the Leon Millot vines are getting ready to bloom- that's right, they are getting clusters of bloom. I noticed this on several plants. May be more varieties doing it but I was working with the LM installing the trellis for them yesterday. The only thing I can see causing this is that we had some really cool nights for a week or so which may have satisfied the cooling requirements for those plants and when it warmed back up, they thought it was spring again.


More cool weather- we tied the record low for the date yesterday at 40, today was 41 and it is supposed to be about 39 tonight. Fall is coming.


What are others seeing?


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## NorthernWinos (Sep 11, 2006)

I notice the reddish twigs and the browning leaves....also have some little brown spots on some older leaves...like rust...?
Haven't noticed any budding, nor any hints of blossoms...my gosh, they are mixed up aren't they...You have mentioned that you have had a lot of rain, could be the reason, they just want to keep growing...?
&gt;Are these vines planted this year???
&gt;Did you do any pruning on the baby vines??? 
&gt;Or did you let them grow as much foliage as possible to build strong plants???....then prune the strongest vine next spring and train that one???
&gt;Did you do any late fertilizing???
Kind of odd for the plants to be budding and blooming at this time, you'd think the plants would notice the colder nights and shorter days....we humans sure do!!!
I did some severe canopy pruning a few weeks ago, to let the sun reach the clusters to ripen, sweeten and reduce acidity, mostly trimmed just the leaves, I don't notice any new growth there, but where I trimmed the end of some of the vines I see some small new leaves, but they aren't very luscious, not like spring growth.
Hope your plants harden off soon and get ready for winter...if possible maybe take the vines off the trellis and lay them on the ground and hope for some snow cover for insulation. 
The owner of the vineyard I visited last week said last winter he laid the new vines down, even tho they were hardy varieties, then he put up snow fences to capture the snow, his all wintered over fine....
I lost some of my oldest vines last winter, and it was a warm winter....the big trunks split, probably in March when the sun is so warm and the nights so cold....got the sap running and exploded when it got cold and froze again....going to grow multiple trunks from now on...always have a young one on the side.
Good luck appleman...hope your grapes ripen and your cider runs free!!!!


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## bilbo-in-maine (Sep 14, 2006)

I just returned from 2 weeks away and found the vines very much as I left them, although a lot more ragged from being chewed by Japanese beetles! I took them off of almost every vine out there this afternoon. I'll have to look more closely tomorrow if there is some sun. I sure is gloomy with the cloudy, rainy weather over New England right now.

Richard's report of new buds and blossoms is very odd. I had noticed two weeks ago on one of the St. Croix vines that there appeared to be a bud developed where I thought there should be a lateral out near the tip of a main shoot. I'll have to take a closer look. Only the table grapes are showing leaf coloration. The wine grapes are still green, but obviously have slowed in their growth.

NW - I will be leaving the vines up on the wires over the winter. We don't get the really cold temps that you do. It is always a gamble, counting on the next winter to be snowy enough for ground protection yet not colder than average. A change in either factor could make me feel like a fool next spring!


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## grapeman (Sep 14, 2006)

Welcome Home Bill,
Hope you had a good visit all around the east. How was the visit to Keuka yesterday? Bring any grape juice home?. You got home pretty early today if you didn't leave western NY until this AM. Sorry you couldn't stop in on your way through. Did you make it up to the Port Kent Ferry this time? Give me a little notice when you are coming through and I'll set a few up to try.
Richard


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## bilbo-in-maine (Sep 14, 2006)

Hey Richard - The lousy weather drove us home a day earlier than planned. As we drove out of Virginia and up through Pa into NY it got cloudier and cloudier on Tuesday, started raining that night at the Finger Lakes area, and rained all Wednesday as we toured 4 vineyards and wineries. We camped last night maybe an hour west of Albany south of the Adirondacks and pushed on home today through southern Vermont and New Hampster, although we went a little out of the way to see the Vermont Country Store in Weston. It looks like the way LL Bean used to years ago. Yes, we brought home 6 bottles out of the 8 we bought total, including several from Virginia wineries. I would like to visit your vineyard and "try a few" when we get back out to the Lake Champlain area again. And the offer is good in reverse. Come visit coastal Maine sometime and be sure to contact me.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Sep 25, 2006)

Here it is, last week of September. I'm seeing real changes in the vines now. No more fat, glossy leaves and fast shoot growth - that has stopped. Many of the leaves are not only dull colored and slightly withered, they are showing signs of disease pressure. Several St. Croix appear to have downy mildew but only mildly, and it isn't spreading at all. Around Labor Day I could see faint yellow spots on tops of leaves with slight fuzzy fungal growth on the underside of the spots. Since then it hasn't changed much at all. Today I noticed what I think is powdery mildew on several Frontenac, the ones closest to the pumpkin patch just downhill, all of which are succumbing badly to powdery. I'll continue watching to see if it spreads. So, maybe 4 or 5 vines out of 25 show some signs of disease. All vines have old, ragged spotty leaves, with a small percentage of dried, withered leaves - not hardly any leaf drop yet, though. We still haven't had night temps below 45 degrees. When that happens I imaging I will have more to report. One positive thing to add - the japanese beetles have all but disappeared!


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## bilbo-in-maine (Jan 6, 2007)

Here is is first week of January, and I'm now seeing some buds on several varieties beginning to push! Crazy weather - 65 degrees today. With more seasonable temperatures predicted for later in the coming week, this should be interesting. Anything green and growing now may be dead in April.


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## Wade E (Jan 6, 2007)

67* here. If the ground wasnt so wet from rain yesterday it would have been a great day for the kids to run around in the yard!


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