# Cab Franc vines dead



## Dennis Griffith (Jun 6, 2020)

Ok, last year I added 11 Cab Franc vines to my vineyard. They did well and produced several canes last year. I pruned them in March (this spring) while still dormant and they looked good. Since then we had had a lot of rain and at times the water stood around the vines. We also had a freeze in mid May, and up to that point the vines semed vital and were undergoing bud swell. Since then the vines have died (all 11). They did not appear to be under stress nor was there evidence of any damage (bug or otherwise). These vines are rated for Zone 6 and I live in Zone 6A. I would think the vines would be hardy enough for this zone, but the evidence seems to point at the freeze killing them. These were grafted vines (root stock 101-14). I've given these vines long enough and am getting ready to start dissecting one to examine the vine to see what I can find. My question is has any one else had similar experiences and does anyone have an opinion to share? Thanks in advance.

A pic from last June one month after planting.




A shot this June.


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## ibglowin (Jun 6, 2020)

Do you have recall on what the lowest temps were for a sustained amount of time? Did you have a really dry Winter?

Start by scraping the main trunk with your thumb nail and see if its brown or green.


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## salcoco (Jun 6, 2020)

do as above don't give up the grapes will still try to grow if growth below the graft remove if above the graft retain.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 7, 2020)

Today I discovered some sprouts on four of the vines (one each). The trunk is still viable below the union (scratch test) and these sprouts are above the union. Maybe these vines will rebound, but this raises some questions in my mind. Weather here is unpredictable and we get warm spells late winter/early spring followed by a freeze or frost just about every year. With this being the conditions, am I going to face having to regrow a cane/cordon from the graft to the fruiting wine every year this happens? Are last years retained canes hardy enough for conditions here? These are my first Cab Franc vines and I had always heard they were hardy enough for this region. I typically pick vines/trees that are rated at least a Zone 5 or colder as I have been burned on other vines/trees 'rated' at Zone 6. I'm concerned that I may spend the next 2 or 3 years just to discover these vines are not right for this area. That's why I was reaching out to others that have experience with this variety.

ib, our winter was mild with the coldest temps only down to about 10 F (positive) and the canes seemed to handle that ok. And I would say we had above average rainfall during the winter with it becoming excessive during the last 6 weeks or so.

To salcoco, I don't typically grow grapes that are grafted, but do grow a lot of grafted trees. Same rules applies and I always nip those root suckers as soon as I spot them.


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## salcoco (Jun 7, 2020)

the vines may become more viable as the become older and build up a better reserve for the winter.


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## Xnke (Jun 7, 2020)

Good to hear these are trying to come out of it. It was that late freeze that got'em, it hit me down here too. I had a lot of grafted cuttings that had survived the dog, but had fully swelled buds about to burst when that freeze hit. I wish I'd kept them now, they might have come out of it!


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 8, 2020)

They must have known my intentions as when I went out to make a selection on which one to dissect, I found the first sprout. So they saved themselves. I will continue to monitor and intend to set up the irrigation today.


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## Obbnw (Jun 8, 2020)

One of my vines was really slow to start this year. Way behind all the others. In my case I think it was drowning. I've got heavy clay soil and that vine is in about the wettest spot in the yard. I was doing other work in the area and using the hose which made it worse. Once I decided the vine was drowning I pushed a rod into the ground and made holes all around it to help dry and aerate the soil. It did seem to help. 

I should be able to reroute some roof drains in the area to avoid being so wet in the future.


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## Skashoon (Jun 8, 2020)

Good info. I may try Cab Franc next year as well as Landot Noir. I’m on the edge of 6B/6A. Thinking of growing in air pots first year, then transplanting in-ground for 3rd leaf. Can move the pots to overwinter in the garage to allow the trunks to thicken. Perhaps planting for J method and cover with black mulch after they’re in-ground. Those late frosts in May are problematic here, too. Sprinklers ready. I’m still looking for land to expand, but nothing yet on that front.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 9, 2020)

I'm in Zone 6a/6b in southern Virginia (west of the Blue Ridge) We had a hard frost on April 19, just as the bitten vines began to recover, we had another hard frost on May 6 and the killer freeze on May 10. We had temps in the mid to upper 20s for several hours May 9/10. Everything that had leafed out was killed back. I had 250 vines breaking for the second year. I have two Cab Franc, one is leafing out and the other is not. I have mostly hybrids and most are recovering but each vine is reacting differently. One vine is bouncing back without a second look and the next vine of the same variety looks dead. Fortunately only about 10 or 12 have failed to leaf out for the third time. Hopefully they will soon. Our VA Tech viticulturist suggests that we may want to treat the two year vines as new vines. I'll have to evaluate each one to see where we are in the Fall. The Great Mother's Day freeze didn't bother the new vines (thank goodness). I have an acre now and the whole thing may be on year one. The joys of farming.


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## streamkeeper (Jun 9, 2020)

I‘m in the mountains of North Carolina (6a). I have about 60 Cab Franc vines in the ground, and ranging in age from 1-3 years. I don’t really know what the hell I’m doing, so you have to factor that in...
We had an early spring and then a wicked freeze the night before Mother’s Day. 
I was feeling very confident in early May... not so much by the end of the month. 
I have about seven vines that look like yours. I am trying to be patient because my Cab Franc vines have always been slower than my other varieties.
I’ll order replacements if I don’t see anything this week.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 10, 2020)

I only have 3 out of 11 Cab Francs that appear to have survived. And yes, it was that killer freeze that got mine too. It got down to 22 here 2 nights in a row, so it really whacked my vines (all varieties). I'm debating keeping the Cab Francs and replacing them with Petite Pearl. These vines seem to be on the rise for growers in colder zones and are VERY resistant to disease. Cold hardy and disease resistance vines are 2 big factors for me, but do they like a little clay in their diet??


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## VinesnBines (Jun 10, 2020)

I don't know much about Petite Pearl; I'm interested in how it does. I have loads of clay, red and yellow in the same field. (Different soil series run through the field).
Streamkeeper, where in the NC mountains and what else do you have?


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## treesaver (Jun 13, 2020)

VnB, look into Verona. I really like that grape, but have had much misfourtion with all my grapes the last several years. It started with an aerial spraying incident, and the last two springs with way too much water, along with hard freezes at the wrong time. Sometimes makes you wonder if it is all worth it! I have lost many vines, some are coming back from the roots, and some are not. Many cordons are dead, and some look dead, and still have bare green wood. Grape production on the concordes last year was a third, and this year, it will be worse! I have two areas planted, one on the west side of the house, and one on the east. The west side was hurt the worst with the spray, but I have also lost a few vines on the east. I have three rows of frontenacs on the east, and were the only ones that ewere not bothered with all the adversity. I lost two norton vines through it all, so I guess it could be worse!


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## Skashoon (Jun 13, 2020)

VinesnBines said:


> I don't know much about Petite Pearl; I'm interested in how it does. I have loads of clay, red and yellow in the same field. (Different soil series run through the field).
> Streamkeeper, where in the NC mountains and what else do you have?


Just trialing Petite Pearl this year, no grapes for 2 more years, but we will see.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 13, 2020)

And you have red clay. How vigorous are they? I'm thinking replacing 8 of my dead Cab Francs with them and then modifying the trellis system to support to support both the 3 VSP vines and also the 8 TWC vines. If the other Cab Francs die, then that short row will be all Petite. What vine spacing did you use? How well drained if your clay soil? I may have to enhance drainage for this row.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 14, 2020)

Here's a couple of useful links. You'll find that Petite Pearl and Verona are both from Tom Plocher.









Contact a licensed nursery to inquire about Plocher grapes.


List of nurseries in Canada and the U.S. that sell grape vines of Tom Plocher's varieties, Petite Pearl, Crimson Pearl, Verona, T.P.1-1-12.



www.coldclimategrapes.com













Cold hardy grapes for Minnesota and other cold climates.


Tom Plocher has been breeding wine grapes for cold climates since 1996. He has introduced the new cold resistant grape varieties Petite Pearl, Crimson Pearl, and Verona. Plocher-Vines LLC manages the commercialization of Plocher varieties.



www.coldclimategrapes.com


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## Skashoon (Jun 14, 2020)

I should’ve bought Verona to trial too. I’m asking some of the listed nurseries. I’m also anxious to trial Plocher’s two new numbered varieties. Those will have to wait until next season I suppose as I saw none yet offered. Presently looking for the right piece of land in S KY or TN to expand plantings. Apologies, unintentional hijacking of this thread.


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## streamkeeper (Jun 16, 2020)

VinesnBines said:


> I don't know much about Petite Pearl; I'm interested in how it does. I have loads of clay, red and yellow in the same field. (Different soil series run through the field).
> Streamkeeper, where in the NC mountains and what else do you have?


 
I am along the New River in Todd N.C. I am about 10 miles from Boone, which is more familiar to most people. 
I am growing Chamboucin along with the Cab Franc for wine. I also grow Somerset, Catawba, and some Concords for table grapes.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 17, 2020)

Ourt vineyard is about 60 miles Northeast of you. We are roughly 50 miles from Boone; 30 miles North of Bristol at Glade Spring, VA. We have one acre under vine this year. We put the first 1/4 acre in last Spring and the rest in early May. We have mostly hybrids with Chambourcin in the mix. My Cab Franc that I thought was dead has leafed out. I did lose 4 Traminette, 3 Chardonel, 1 Chancellor, and 1 Foch to the freeze. I think they had leafed out and were killed back at least three times so no buds left. All were alive and braking bud in early April. The Vidal were latest breaking bud ad just laughed at the frost and freeze. Since this is just my second leaf for the first 1/4 acre, I wasn't planning on fruit anyway. 
I have several varieties that'm trialing since we only have one commercial winery in the county and one other commercial vineyard. I need to know what will grow and produce. I get a lot of criticism for such a wide range but this year's weather justified my thoughts. I'm still assessing the survival rate, bud break, frost/freeze tolerance and productivity. I'd like to get a couple more acres in over the next few years.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 28, 2020)

Of the 11 Cab Francs I planted last year, 4 grafts have survived and I'm in the process of retraining this years growth. But, some of the roots on the ones that the graft has died on is sending up shoots. So should I let them grow and attempt another graft to them next spring, or attempt a graft now to the existing (less viable) trunk. I feel that the new cane will be a better candidate for grafting and just let it grow this year to build strength in the roots. Any opinions?


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## Xnke (Jun 28, 2020)

Let the new cane grow this year, train it up nice and straight. Next spring, graft onto that trunk when the weather will support the graft. Even if the trunk is already budded out a bit, the graft has a better chance when the temperatures are hotter than the cool temps that can come to trying o make the graft before budbreak, I have found.


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## Skashoon (Jun 28, 2020)

Can’t hurt to develop the rootstock roots this season and graft later.


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## wood1954 (Jun 28, 2020)

The vineyard I used to pick my grapes from just south of Madison wi, is in the process of removing all their petite pearl due to lack of productivity in their somewhat clayish soil putting in Marquette instead.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 29, 2020)

That is good to know as I was thinking of planting some Petite Pearl next spring. Maybe Marquette is the better option?


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## montanarick (Jun 29, 2020)

Our Marquettes out here in Montana thrive very well. Petite Pearl not so much. look into Crimson Peral, Marechal Foch or Leon Millot


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 30, 2020)

I saw that he had developed the crimson pearl as well, which is a newer variety. So you think it will work better in clay soils?


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## montanarick (Jun 30, 2020)

My soil has a fairly high clay content with carbonaceous sedimentary rock. I don't have any personal experience with Crimson Pearl however a local grower speaks very highly of them


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## montanarick (Jul 1, 2020)

montanarick said:


> My soil has a fairly high clay content with carbonaceous sedimentary rock. I don't have any personal experience with Crimson Pearl however a local grower speaks very highly of them


Sorry meant to say Calcareous not Carbanaceouos


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## sremick (Jul 7, 2020)

I had 4 of the vines I planted last year showing no life so I was certain they were dead. They were lagging way behind, but all have sprung to life at this point.

Vines are strange.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 25, 2022)

An update on the Cab Franc vines. I'm down to 2, but I do have some thriving 101-14 root stock. Seems I lose everything about the graft during the winter. I did graft cab franc cuttings a couple of the root stock that are doing well. Of the 2 Cab Francs left, only one appears to be doing well. I do not think the other will make it past next winter based on my experience so far. So, I'm pulling out 4 vines and replacing with Noiret to see how this variety does here. This one is rated to Zone 5, which should be ok. I'm starting to think that varieties rated at Zone 6A may be hit or miss for me. The other varieties I grow are all rated for colder than Zone 6 and have decent resistance to the fungus/disease pressure we experience here.


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## VinesnBines (May 25, 2022)

I've discovered that cold hardy and suitable for a zone may not be the same thing. I am in 6a/6b (depending). Winter temps are rarely below 0F but we do get single digits for a few nights - good that no PD worries. Still it can warm up early in Spring bt we are subject to frost/freezes through mid May. 

This means that a winter hardy like Marquette or Marchal Foch will survive the winter just fine but will break so early that they may get killed back by frost or late freeze. Vidal Blanc will break late and will produce a more consistent crop. This year I have done well with frost. Last frost was April 19/20 so the early bud break was not a problem.

I've tried late pruning and double pruning but it did not seem to make a difference. The buds did not break on the end first; apparently the vines failed to read the instructions.

Dennis, I wonder if the Cab Franc are getting killed back by too many late frosts/freeze events? Also, although I'm using 101-14 I was told that 3309 might be better suited for for zone 6a. It also may be the clone. I don't know enough about the clones and which will survive better in which zone. There are so many factors to consider.


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## ibglowin (May 25, 2022)

I have both Marquette and Noiret growing here in NM at high altitude so we have our share of late frost and sometimes early frost as well some years. In fact we just got down to 37 this morning. Both Marquette and Noiret have survived our Winters for 12 years now. Had a 3 day period where our lows were -22F and never got above 0F and all vines came back the next year. Noiret is the smarter grape for sure. It's always at least 2 weeks behind Marquette as far as bud break so it rarely gets bit by a late frost. Its always 2-3 weeks behind the Marquette come harvest time making a field blend next to impossible. Problem I have encountered with Noiret over the years is that it seems to grow and produce like crazy for the first 4-5 seasons and then little by little the production dwindles no matter what you do including lots of fertilizer while Marquette just keeps on trucking each year. Noiret produces a larger cluster and a wine that is more like a Syrah IMHO while Marquette produces a smaller cluster with a more Pinot Noir type quality. Of course these are growing in my soils (thin, sandy, volcanic) So YMMV up north where you have some real dirt. Both make a pretty decent table wine. Both need a hefty tannin addition IMHO.


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## wood1954 (May 25, 2022)

i agree with the tannin addition. i add a lot of cheap tannin during fermentation, then better tannin after racking off the gross lees. The protein in the marquette binds up the tannins.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 25, 2022)

Thanks for the feedback. This year has been warm, for sure. Last frost date here is typically May 15th, but last year it dropped to 22 on the 22nd. So no fruit other than apples from the orchard last year and the grapes had a late (second) start. This year is well ahead of average and I'm now watching for JB emergence, which doesn't usually happen til mid June. I'll keep some Cab Franc and will order at least a couple next year on the 3309 root stock to see how those go. 101-14 thrills here, but the issue seems to be with the graft. I wonder if wrapping the vines at and above the graft would help. Could be Cab Franc is more sensitive to desiccation that occurs during the couldest part of winter.


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## VinesnBines (May 25, 2022)

I lost a Cab Franc to crown gall at the graft. I had to kill the vine since it was so young. I've also lost a couple Chambourcin for no apparent reason.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 25, 2022)

Oh, I have crown galling issues too. I typically gravitate toward own rooted vines and allow multiple canes. If one gets galling, I cut that cane out. I have also tried inoculating the soil with Actinovate, a biological fungicide that can be used via soil drench method or sprayed foliarly. The thought is to out complete the bacteria that causes crown gall in the soil. I've had some success. I'd really like to get my hands on Gallex or Galltrol A, but it's not approved for use in Ohio.


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## VinesnBines (May 25, 2022)

I go for self rooted mainly to keep from covering the graft. When I start planting more vinifera, I'll have to go with grafted.


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## balatonwine (May 25, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I've discovered that cold hardy and suitable for a zone may not be the same thing.



I fully concur. 

And I may add, this is a vastly underappreciated comment.

There is far, far more to what allows a vine (or any plant) to grow well than simplistic issues like hardiness or cimatic "zones".


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## VinesnBines (May 25, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> I fully concur.
> 
> And I may add, this is a vastly underappreciated comment.
> 
> There is far, far more to what allows a vine (or any plant) to grow well than simplistic issues like hardiness or cimatic "zones".


As in real estate the three most important things are location, location, location. To elaborate further, the vine or plant that does well for the neighbor may not do well for you. Sites vary widely with respect to soil, drainage, fertility, frost pockets, sun exposure, rainfall, previous crop usage .....on and on and on. All the factors I named are especially noticeable in mountain areas.


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