# Figuring out how to start growing grapes.



## Xnke (Mar 24, 2019)

So I've had a large, unruly, often black-rot affected *probably* Niagara grape vine for many years now. I've finally actually started pruning on it a little more regularly and it's improving a bit-but it will die out soon as the two main canes/trunk have grown through a chain link fence, and are starting to get choked out. So far, I have not been lucky enough to get a cane to sprout out near the base, that I can re-train NOT through the fence. If things go really well this year, I'll be moving to a new home next year, and so I want to bring my hodge-podge garden with me-a lot of my stuff grows in containers until then.

My local university ag farm's vineyard is about 700ft away, and I went to talk with them today-I saw one of the faculty out at the greenhouse this afternoon. Ten minutes later, he had me out in the vines cutting off canes that had grown down low on the trunks last year, and after gave me a lesson on what he called "quick-dormant rooting" which is what I've been trying for a while with no luck-we'll see if it works his way.

Basically, it's the same as hardwood rooting, but the canes are left on the plant until spring, after the thaw, but before bud break, and after the sap has risen. He said he wants canes that are JUST dormant still, and other than that treats them just like any other hardwood rooting, but he always uses a rooting compound with them. Claims 10 days to roots, on average, and his that he started at the beginning of the month are already rooted and in the greenhouse, starting to leaf out. I've always done it this way but never had any luck. I use "Rootone" powder though, and he had some fancy "cloning gel" stuff in a large tub, so maybe that's the difference?

Anyway, he and I did 3 Syrah, and 4 Vidal Blanc from cuttings low off the trunk of the vines, and then I came home and cut up some of my pruned-off vines from the other day, that were still very green and weeping sap...now there are 10 cuttings from my old house vine too. Oh and the container grape-it's two years old and is a Mars grape. (The university also has Neptune and Jupiter...should I try for a whole solar system?)

So, if things go well enough, I'll have 1 Syrah, 1 Vidal Blanc, and 1 Mars, and a bunch of grape vines that have proven extremely hardy in my area, to play with for a while. If I'm very lucky, I'll get more than 1 of the cuttings to root and grow-but I'm pessimistic. Although I did pretty good with tomatoes this year...I've been giving them away to everyone and I still have 40+ plants left!

I'll *try* to keep a few photos and some updated info in this thread, because I'm sure I'll have lots of questions of what to do, and how to best keep things growing, in the next few weeks. Trellessing, grafting (if that's needed) and other fun stuff!


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## balatonwine (Mar 25, 2019)

Xnke said:


> My local university ag farm's vineyard is about 700ft away



Wow!

You are one lucky wine grower.


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## Xnke (Mar 25, 2019)

I'm more interested in the growing part than the drinkin' part, I am not able to consume alcohol as a general rule-I am missing a liver enzyme that helps the metabolization along. I can have a *little* bit and be fine, but where most people could tolerate a bottle in a night with some discomfort, it would likely hospitalize me. So, the growing is MUCH more fun! And, if it tastes good, well, that's great and I am keen to share what I can make.

Same with the tomatoes and pepper plants-I grow a LOT of Solanacea in the yard every year, more than I can consume, but I just give away whatever I can't use. I've grafted tomato plants onto potato plants, and gotten both tomatoes and potatoes from the same plant before! (it doesn't really work that well, but it is *possible*...)

I am considering ordering a rootstock plant from Double A this year, just to have something to graft onto, mainly for practice in grafting. I wonder if I could chip graft onto a 1st year cane, let the graft take this summer, then cut the cane back after it's dormant and root the rootstock this winter?


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## Xnke (Mar 26, 2019)

Here's a few shots of the hot room this year...Like I said, we'll see what I can get going.







The light is a 200W LED lamp I built this year, it throws down 1.15 million PAR. It also runs about 120F, and the air coming off the non-fan end is around 110F. It keeps the room warm, and warms the aluminum frame it's strapped to up to about 80F.

So, First on the 80F "hot bar" I have 3 Suspected "Niagara" sticks-it's the self-fertile rootstock of whatever the old Thomson Seedless was.






Then, 3 Syrah sticks, 1 is a 2-bud stick:






And four Vidal Blanc Sticks:






The soil temp at the base of the sticks, where the callus should form, is 80F on the money. The room temperature is 68F most days, unless it's a 70+F day in which case it's up to 78F in the room.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 27, 2019)

Xnke said:


> Here's a few shots of the hot room this year...Like I said, we'll see what I can get going.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really should graft onto rootstock to protect against disease as vinifera on its own won’t usually live long because phylloxera will eventually attack and kill it. Unless you have extremely sandy soil.


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## Xnke (Mar 27, 2019)

We have clay silt loam here, and the university vineyard grows both vidal blanc and syrah on their own roots-they've been there for 20 years now and no significant problems. That said-I plan to graft onto some 101-14 rootstock when I can get some. So far, the only source has been Double-A and while 9 bucks for the plant is fine, another 40 bucks to ship it is more than I am willing to spend on goofing around this year, especially since I have so little experience grafting yet.

Now, that said-if anyone has any 101-14 rootstock they would be willing to cut dormant sticks off of, I'd be glad to buy some! If I don't find any before winter, I'll just graft onto the Niagara. (or whatever it actually is.) It's 15 years old and has been cut back to a foot tall twice, cut right down to the ground once, when it was so much trouble we decided not to grow grapes anymore...and it's now got a 6" thick trunk on it again. That sucker just won't die, so if I do succeed in getting it to root and grow, I'll have to try grafting onto it.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 27, 2019)

Xnke said:


> We have clay silt loam here, and the university vineyard grows both vidal blanc and syrah on their own roots-they've been there for 20 years now and no significant problems. That said-I plan to graft onto some 101-14 rootstock when I can get some. So far, the only source has been Double-A and while 9 bucks for the plant is fine, another 40 bucks to ship it is more than I am willing to spend on goofing around this year, especially since I have so little experience grafting yet.
> 
> Now, that said-if anyone has any 101-14 rootstock they would be willing to cut dormant sticks off of, I'd be glad to buy some! If I don't find any before winter, I'll just graft onto the Niagara. (or whatever it actually is.) It's 15 years old and has been cut back to a foot tall twice, cut right down to the ground once, when it was so much trouble we decided not to grow grapes anymore...and it's now got a 6" thick trunk on it again. That sucker just won't die, so if I do succeed in getting it to root and grow, I'll have to try grafting onto it.


Go with novavine in California they can ship anywhere in the us at $20 an order flat rate shipping. 2-5 day delivery time.

101-14 is a good rootstock but it does slow vigour a lot. Just a heads up on that.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 28, 2019)

Xnke said:


> We have clay silt loam here, and the university vineyard grows both vidal blanc and syrah on their own roots-they've been there for 20 years now and no significant problems. That said-I plan to graft onto some 101-14 rootstock when I can get some. So far, the only source has been Double-A and while 9 bucks for the plant is fine, another 40 bucks to ship it is more than I am willing to spend on goofing around this year, especially since I have so little experience grafting yet.
> 
> Now, that said-if anyone has any 101-14 rootstock they would be willing to cut dormant sticks off of, I'd be glad to buy some! If I don't find any before winter, I'll just graft onto the Niagara. (or whatever it actually is.) It's 15 years old and has been cut back to a foot tall twice, cut right down to the ground once, when it was so much trouble we decided not to grow grapes anymore...and it's now got a 6" thick trunk on it again. That sucker just won't die, so if I do succeed in getting it to root and grow, I'll have to try grafting onto it.



They probably have a good spray program in place to control those little nasty buggers. For me (in Ohio), most of what I grow is 'own rooted', but they are considered native varieties. I have found that a good spray program year round helps keep phylloxera under control. Dormant sprays during dormancy is a good start. My biggest problem during the growing season is Japanese beetles. Here they can wipe out the foliage in half a day, so I always have to be on guard, watching for the first signs so that I can take measures. Good luck with the move.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 28, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> They probably have a good spray program in place to control those little nasty buggers. For me (in Ohio), most of what I grow is 'own rooted', but they are considered native varieties. I have found that a good spray program year round helps keep phylloxera under control. Dormant sprays during dormancy is a good start. My biggest problem during the growing season is Japanese beetles. Here they can wipe out the foliage in half a day, so I always have to be on guard, watching for the first signs so that I can take measures. Good luck with the move.
> 
> View attachment 53969


You do realize sprays have no effect on phylloxera nothing can really kill it except for some really really really toxic stuff you leech into the soil. It isn't guaranteed to kill them but it can. The only way to stop it is grafting.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 28, 2019)

That's what they say. All I know is that since I've started using Zeta-Cypermethrin to control beetles, I've seen no sign (as in zero) of phylloxera. Whether it's killing them in the soil or after they emerge, I don't know. It's also very effective on the beetles.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 28, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> That's what they say. All I know is that since I've started using Zeta-Cypermethrin to control beetles, I've seen no sign (as in zero) of phylloxera. Whether it's killing them in the soil or after they emerge, I don't know. It's also very effective on the beetles.


It might be you just don't have any specifically where you are at, but UC Davis knows better than basically anyone else what does and doesn't kill phylloxera as they have a lab dedicated to examining and trying to kill it. So I'm going off what they say about it. 

But if it works whatever floats your boat. That's great.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 28, 2019)

CabEnthusiast said:


> It might be you just don't have any specifically where you are at, but UC Davis knows better than basically anyone else what does and doesn't kill phylloxera as they have a lab dedicated to examining and trying to kill it. So I'm going off what they say about it.
> 
> But if it works whatever floats your boat. That's great.



I actually had it at one time. I was worried cause I didn't want to start digging and burning established vines. And you're right, some of the chemicals prescribed are almost worse than the pest. But here is a shot of some leaves the last year I had it. I still have the vines and they show no sign. Here's a couple of shots:




And here's a shot of the same vine last year.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 28, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> I actually had it at one time. I was worried cause I didn't want to start digging and burning established vines. And you're right, some of the chemicals prescribed are almost worse than the pest. But here is a shot of some leaves the last year I had it. I still have the vines and they show no sign. Here's a couple of shots:
> 
> View attachment 53978
> 
> ...


Yeah that's biotype B flying phylloxera it can't kill vines but can screw up leaves.

The older form can kill vines but can't fly.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 28, 2019)

Very unnerving to see this on your vines regardless.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 28, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> Very unnerving to see this on your vines regardless.


It is disturbing that is for sure something you do not want to see.


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## Masbustelo (Mar 29, 2019)

Phylloxera tends to kill the grape varieties that are European stock, hence the neeed to graft them on to resistant rootstock. The grape varieties grown in the Midwest, particularly the hybrids which are crossed with native U.S. varieties are immune to being killed by Phylloxera root disease. This is why they aren't grafted, generally speaking. ( They may be grafted for other reasons). Phylloxera is an insect and certain sprays applied at the right time can indeed kill these insects. Also removing and destroying the infected leaves removes the eggs before they hatch. In small vineyards it seems to me from personal observation and experience that with good cultural practice, Phylloxera infestation can be largely controlled or eradicated.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 31, 2019)

Xnke said:


> So I've had a large, unruly, often black-rot affected *probably* Niagara grape vine for many years now. I've finally actually started pruning on it a little more regularly and it's improving a bit-but it will die out soon as the two main canes/trunk have grown through a chain link fence, and are starting to get choked out. So far, I have not been lucky enough to get a cane to sprout out near the base, that I can re-train NOT through the fence. If things go really well this year, I'll be moving to a new home next year, and so I want to bring my hodge-podge garden with me-a lot of my stuff grows in containers until then.
> 
> My local university ag farm's vineyard is about 700ft away, and I went to talk with them today-I saw one of the faculty out at the greenhouse this afternoon. Ten minutes later, he had me out in the vines cutting off canes that had grown down low on the trunks last year, and after gave me a lesson on what he called "quick-dormant rooting" which is what I've been trying for a while with no luck-we'll see if it works his way.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I meant to reply to this a few days ago. You can get cloning gel on Amazon (brand name Clonex) for about $20. It's enough to do about 80 -100 cuttings. Has better success rate than rooting hormone powder.


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## Xnke (Apr 1, 2019)

So being as I'm a cheap bast..um...a Thrifty Gentleman, I went out and found some more pots for containerized grapes this year. I'm moving soon so big pots are the answer, but cheap is the key. Free being the best. Scored two feed buckets, each holding 5 cubic feet of dirt. But...10 cubic feet of dirt...cheap...

It's well known that many garden centers discount "culled" bagged goods like mulch and potting soil. I cruise my local ones this time of year for the clumsy summer hires, because I know later as the weather warms, they'll bust a few bags a week. But then I stumbled across a new grocery in town, with a garden center attached-a grocery, it seems, that no one notices they have a garden center attached. There are stacks and stacks of last year's bagged potting soil and topsoil, mulch, and BBQ charcoal...the plastic sun-baked and brittle, the pallets rotten and broken...So I asked if they do a discount on culled dirt...They do not. But the GM decided he needed to get rid of this, and asked how much I could haul away for him. As my S-10 will only carry 1200lbs in the bed, and I didn't have a trailer hooked up, I picked a pallet that looked about right, and got 23 1cuft bags of this sandy, coal-black, topsoil mix. For nothing. Free is good enough!






Sorry for the potato phone-the camera has this weird habit of focusing nice and sharp, then after a fraction of a second, defocusing to this fuzzy crap. I have no idea how to fix that. You can see the two big buckets strapped to the cab.

5 bags filled each big pot, leaving about two inches of open space on top for mulching later. There are 8 1" holes drilled in the bottom for drainage.

Now here's a Reliance grape that came from the same store-I felt like I should at least buy *something* for the free dirt, so I got one of the inexpensive off-the-shelf grape plants. 4.99, and this one had the largest root ball in the plastic bag, and it's a red grape, so far I only have the green grape on the fence, and the dark blue one in my existing container. 

I have some questions-First, is this a grafted vine? It looks like a T-bud graft, but I've only seen them fresh, since my T-bud grafts never took. 






Second, should I cut this back to a single growing cane, or is it too early to tell which one will be the keeper?






By figuring out the answers to these questions, it will help identify what I should be doing with the others, should they ever root.

I also have two bare-root 1-year plants of 3309C rootstock coming from Novavine later this month.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 2, 2019)

It does appear grafted. Probably a bark or bud graft, hard to say which. Good luck with the pots. Remember, grape vines have big feet, so you'll need large shoes if you expect them to produce.


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## Xnke (Apr 3, 2019)

Each of those blue tubs holds 50 gallons. They should be fine in those for one or two years, trained as two arm kniffens.

In two years I plan to have a few 100ft rows set, but that isn't immediately, so the big pots are what I have till then.


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## CabEnthusiast (Apr 4, 2019)

Xnke said:


> So being as I'm a cheap bast..um...a Thrifty Gentleman, I went out and found some more pots for containerized grapes this year. I'm moving soon so big pots are the answer, but cheap is the key. Free being the best. Scored two feed buckets, each holding 5 cubic feet of dirt. But...10 cubic feet of dirt...cheap...
> 
> It's well known that many garden centers discount "culled" bagged goods like mulch and potting soil. I cruise my local ones this time of year for the clumsy summer hires, because I know later as the weather warms, they'll bust a few bags a week. But then I stumbled across a new grocery in town, with a garden center attached-a grocery, it seems, that no one notices they have a garden center attached. There are stacks and stacks of last year's bagged potting soil and topsoil, mulch, and BBQ charcoal...the plastic sun-baked and brittle, the pallets rotten and broken...So I asked if they do a discount on culled dirt...They do not. But the GM decided he needed to get rid of this, and asked how much I could haul away for him. As my S-10 will only carry 1200lbs in the bed, and I didn't have a trailer hooked up, I picked a pallet that looked about right, and got 23 1cuft bags of this sandy, coal-black, topsoil mix. For nothing. Free is good enough!
> 
> ...


Novavine is the best, reasonable and virus free high quality grapes.

I just got another shipment of vines today


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## Xnke (Apr 6, 2019)

Yes, you've mentioned novavine. I have a pair of 3309C bare-root vines coming, although it was pretty well the same price as a vine from Double A. Only 4$ less, but I did get two plants. We'll see how they do-as long as they grow a bit and I can get a chip graft on them to callus up, I'll be happy. The plan is let the buds on them grow out into canes this year, chip bud in any variety that I can get to take, and then cut the canes back this winter and use them to bench graft some others. We'll see what happens!

Finally got to talk to the director of the grape program over at the school, and was given some Cab Sauv and more Syrah cuttings. I packed a few in wet newsprint and stuck them in the fridge for budsticks, and am trying the bag of damp peat for rooting with some of the others.

He said that they only have one or two instructors who are really good at grafting, so he told me to expect a lot of failed grafts until I have a method that works-then to just do the way that works, regardless of what others say to do. He does bench grafting, and it works for him-but then he also gets them to root easy. One of the other instructors only does field grafts, and slashes vines to relieve the excessive sap pressure to keep the graft from getting pushed off before callusing.

On the current rooting front, the Niagara vines are all budding out, and I have removed all but the highest bud on the stick. If they start to grow, I'll knock them down to a half-leaf until I know they have roots-the ones I have checked do not even have callus tissue yet. I am not particularly hopeful for these.

The Vidal Blanc and Syrah sticks have not started to bud out-but when I pinched off one of the lower buds on the Vidal, it was still soft and green underneath. I am still hopeful for these.


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## Xnke (Apr 11, 2019)

So far, none of the sticks have callused, grown roots, or done anything except attempt to make grapes.

Yes, two of the fencerow grape sticks in the dirt busted right into trying to make grapes, with no leaves, and no roots.

The Vidal Blanc and Syrah sticks that I stuck into dirt and had on the hot bar at 80F for the last two weeks appear to have done...nothing. No callusing, no roots, no nuthin'. But, they're still green, and the buds are still soft, so maybe they'll eventually do something.

I've got the bag-of-peat sticks left to check on, they appear to be OK but it's hard to tell. The buds are starting to grow out on a few of the sticks, but without yanking them out of the bag, it would be hard to tell if they've rooted.


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## Masbustelo (Apr 11, 2019)

Regarding being patient with plants sometimes: A few years ago I ordered a cherry tree. I planted it in April. It finally produced leaves at the end of June. I was sure it was dead.


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## CabEnthusiast (Apr 12, 2019)

Masbustelo said:


> Regarding being patient with plants sometimes: A few years ago I ordered a cherry tree. I planted it in April. It finally produced leaves at the end of June. I was sure it was dead.


cherry trees do best in pairs.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 12, 2019)

Masbustelo said:


> Regarding being patient with plants sometimes: A few years ago I ordered a cherry tree. I planted it in April. It finally produced leaves at the end of June. I was sure it was dead.



I had a similar experience with a grape (Neptune) I ordered from a company that I usually only by trees from. It was dormant and bare root. I followed all of the proper care and planting, but it remained dormant for a long time. If it wasn't for me nipping and scratching to look for green, then I could have easy have pulled it up for dead. It took at least 2 months for it to come to life.


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## Xnke (Apr 12, 2019)

Attempted my first two grafts today-One on 3309C rootstock that is still dormant, but rooted, and 1 on the old vine in the yard that had no buds on one arm of the trunk. I planned to cut that arm off as it grows through the fence and will eventually die off anyway, so I figure if I can chip bud in a new bud and get it to grow, then that arm isn't a total loss. There's another arm that has the same problem going on, but I ran out of talent and ruined three buds off the bud stick, so I didn't cut into it yet.

The 3309C rootstock graft seemed pretty easy as the two sticks were nearly the same size, but I had a hard time tying the parafilm grafting wrap. I don't know if I got it right or not.

The old vine in the corner was bigger diameter, which made it much easier to get the parafilm tied proper, but when I cut into it it shot sap out like I'd cut into a garden hose! It took two tries to get a bud cut properly to fit and then I tied it in tight with the parafilm, and made a bleed cut about two inches below the graft. Hopefully that will do the job.

Guess we'll see in a few weeks how they do.


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## CabEnthusiast (Apr 13, 2019)

Xnke said:


> Attempted my first two grafts today-One on 3309C rootstock that is still dormant, but rooted, and 1 on the old vine in the yard that had no buds on one arm of the trunk. I planned to cut that arm off as it grows through the fence and will eventually die off anyway, so I figure if I can chip bud in a new bud and get it to grow, then that arm isn't a total loss. There's another arm that has the same problem going on, but I ran out of talent and ruined three buds off the bud stick, so I didn't cut into it yet.
> 
> The 3309C rootstock graft seemed pretty easy as the two sticks were nearly the same size, but I had a hard time tying the parafilm grafting wrap. I don't know if I got it right or not.
> 
> ...


you did well


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## Xnke (Apr 14, 2019)

Had to go cover the grafts and put buckets over all the other plants-supposed to be a tax day hard freeze tonight.

You'd think I would learn it. It happens every stinking year.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 14, 2019)

I never quit worrying until May. Two years ago we had a hard freeze on May 14th. My grapes thought spring was here and didn't like it.


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## CabEnthusiast (Apr 15, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> I never quit worrying until May. Two years ago we had a hard freeze on May 14th. My grapes thought spring was here and didn't like it.


my grapes have been activse since late feb, I don't even think they went to sleep for longer than 2 months. I had a ton of rain in March.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 15, 2019)

I'm glad mine are still dormant as it's snowing outside at this moment. This is Ohio and it will probably be 70 here tomorrow. Typically a rough start for the season here.


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## Xnke (Apr 15, 2019)

So, in case any of you are wondering what this doofus is trying to do, here's the idea:

Year 1: get a rootstock growing to produce material for bench grafts. Learn how to get the grafts to be take, rootstock to root and 1 year plants to grow solid.

Year 2: get a trellis set up for 10 vines, and plant my bench grafts in them. Preferably on my own dirt, but that may have to wait til Year 3.

Ideally, I would have 1 or 2 table grape vines, and either grow 1 variety on the other 8 (probably syrah) or split them up (syrah, vidal blanc, or syrah, cab sav). I'm not terribly hung up on the variety, but I have pretty good soil here, and the growing season is pretty consistantly April 15 to September 30, with some excursions to mid October. 

When it comes to budwood, I have access to a significant number of varieties that have done at least decently in my climate for 20 years, mostly vinefera hybrids and one or two hybrids.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 15, 2019)

Xnke said:


> So, in case any of you are wondering what this doofus is trying to do, here's the idea:
> 
> Year 1: get a rootstock growing to produce material for bench grafts. Learn how to get the grafts to be take, rootstock to root and 1 year plants to grow solid.
> 
> ...



What area are we speaking of?


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## CabEnthusiast (Apr 15, 2019)

Xnke said:


> So, in case any of you are wondering what this doofus is trying to do, here's the idea:
> 
> Year 1: get a rootstock growing to produce material for bench grafts. Learn how to get the grafts to be take, rootstock to root and 1 year plants to grow solid.
> 
> ...


You jumped right in and are doing more than most of us are. I'm a pioneer in my area in that I'm planting many varietals that nobody has ever had here before. 

I'm the first to plant Blaufrankisch. Which is my experimental grape for my area.


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## Xnke (Apr 15, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> What area are we speaking of?



Central Kentucky. Zone 6, Crider series clay loam soil. In my current location it's about 38 inches till you hit rock, but the county I work in and hope to be buying dirt in, it's about 100 inches to the limestone. Soil acidity is slight to neutral, 48 inches of rain per year, and between 3600 and 4000 degree days in the growing season. The clay-silt loam is pretty nutrient rich, doesn't have as much limestone as you would think being on limestone bedrock, and is well drained.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 15, 2019)

CabEnthusiast said:


> You jumped right in and are doing more than most of us are. I'm a pioneer in my area in that I'm planting many varietals that nobody has ever had here before.
> 
> I'm the first to plant Blaufrankisch. Which is my experimental grape for my area.



I understand the Lemberger variety is gaining popularity in the NY area. I understand it's not very resistant to PM, which is a problem in my area.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 15, 2019)

Xnke said:


> Central Kentucky. Zone 6, Crider series clay loam soil. In my current location it's about 38 inches till you hit rock, but the county I work in and hope to be buying dirt in, it's about 100 inches to the limestone. Soil acidity is slight to neutral, 48 inches of rain per year, and between 3600 and 4000 degree days in the growing season. The clay-silt loam is pretty nutrient rich, doesn't have as much limestone as you would think being on limestone bedrock, and is well drained.



I'm in south central Ohio and not far from KY. We have similar soil types and problems. But they do have grape root borer issues in some areas of KY, so beware. I've been worried that it could spread across the river at some point. I have added milky spore in and around the vineyard, mainly to decrease the Japanese beetle population (another issue for our region), and am curious to any effect it would have on deterring root borers. There is a good testing lab nearby that I use. I'll get you the info, if you like. They have an agronomist on staff that is well versed in viticulture.


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## Xnke (Apr 15, 2019)

A few shots of my grafting attempts:

First, the Syrah on the fencerow vine:

After pulling the loose bark off out of the way, I set the bud in place.






After tying off, a pair of bleed cuts below the bud:






And the one on the 3309C rootstock:






A few other views, this one is a Reliance in a too-small pot, but it'll get set into a larger one when Ican get it:






Who needs leaves? Or roots...Not this guy.











And a longer shot of the Mars in the ladder trellis:






I promise it's in there, but it hadn't budded out in this photo.


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## Xnke (Apr 15, 2019)

Dennis, I'm right next to the WKU vineyards, so any issues they have I'll have here-so far, so good. Biggest problems locally are black rot and powdery mildew, and due to PM being a huge problem for the local tobacco growers we've been lucky that they hunted down and killed off as much as they possibly can for decades-makes for a much easier time keeping it under control here. There was a time where the tobacco farmers would spray for mildew on homeowner's crops who lived nearby!

As to pests-Japanese beetles are the main problem here, alongside golden beetles. They're a year-to-year problem, the last 10 years haven't been too much a pest in my yard, but go a few blocks down the street and they've stripped roses and beans to nothing.


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## CabEnthusiast (Apr 16, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> I understand the Lemberger variety is gaining popularity in the NY area. I understand it's not very resistant to PM, which is a problem in my area.



I have a lot of issues whenever it rains with downy mildew i have yet to have any powdery mildew which is weird. 

I battle insects mostly eating the leaves on my vines. About 2 years ago a farm planted some fruit trees with sharpshooters and didnt know and they got loose and have been absolutely assaulting everything in the area. My grapes are mostly on rootstock thats completely resistant to them 1103P cant be impacted by them.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 16, 2019)

I'd snip those inflorescence off on those newly rooting canes. They are too much for a vine trying to root. I have a small pair of scissors I use to trim all but a couple of leaves off. As they root, they will grow more, but too much is too much now and will result in an unsuccessful attempt at rooting. I use Clonex gel to stimulate rooting and it will help support a couple of leaves, and they in turn will aid in root development. At least that's my approach. I've been cloning trees for a long time (pears right now), and used to use the powder hormone mix. The gel is much better.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 16, 2019)

CabEnthusiast said:


> I have a lot of issues whenever it rains with downy mildew i have yet to have any powdery mildew which is weird.
> 
> I battle insects mostly eating the leaves on my vines. About 2 years ago a farm planted some fruit trees with sharpshooters and didnt know and they got loose and have been absolutely assaulting everything in the area. My grapes are mostly on rootstock thats completely resistant to them 1103P cant be impacted by them.



I spray year round now (just finished my last dormant oil spray). PM and beetles are the biggest problem I have. Early on, the grapes will grow great, but when the humidity sets in, so does the PM. And when the beetles hit, they come by the bus load. I spray immediately upon sighting. Determining when they will strike depends on soil temps and moisture. Zeta-Cypermethrin is very effective for beetles (for me) at this point. Mancozeb and Captan regiments seem to control PM, but last year I started including Serenade (a biological fungicide) in the mix. It is for long term management, and the jury is still out. Some researcher institutions have noted a noticeable decrease stuff like PM with it's use. I'll tell you at the end of the season what I think.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 16, 2019)

Xnke said:


> Dennis, I'm right next to the WKU vineyards, so any issues they have I'll have here-so far, so good. Biggest problems locally are black rot and powdery mildew, and due to PM being a huge problem for the local tobacco growers we've been lucky that they hunted down and killed off as much as they possibly can for decades-makes for a much easier time keeping it under control here. There was a time where the tobacco farmers would spray for mildew on homeowner's crops who lived nearby!
> 
> As to pests-Japanese beetles are the main problem here, alongside golden beetles. They're a year-to-year problem, the last 10 years haven't been too much a pest in my yard, but go a few blocks down the street and they've stripped roses and beans to nothing.



Have you spoke to them about why they chose the varieties they grow and what issues they have to manage with them? Might want to ask about the grape root borer as well. The only cure for those is digging, fire, and soil fumigation. I read that some vineyards remove the soil entirely and then fumigate it, and then use new soil for the new plantings.


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## Xnke (Apr 18, 2019)

They did have grape borer at one time, but were able to eliminate it by nematode introduction and spray programs. Went by today on my day off work and helped train vines into their respective trellis styles, learned a bit and also learned what varieties they are switching to this year for the research programs. Apparently Malbec and Cabernet sav are coming out and more syrah and cab franc are going in to replace them. They are retraining Vidal Blanc into a VSP trellis this year too, coming from MWC.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 18, 2019)

Xnke said:


> They did have grape borer at one time, but were able to eliminate it by nematode introduction and spray programs. Went by today on my day off work and helped train vines into their respective trellis styles, learned a bit and also learned what varieties they are switching to this year for the research programs. Apparently Malbec and Cabernet sav are coming out and more syrah and cab franc are going in to replace them. They are retraining Vidal Blanc into a VSP trellis this year too, coming from MWC.



Interesting. Good to know about the nematodes. Wonder why they are trying VSP for the Vidal Blanc. I thought they preferred TWC.


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## Xnke (Apr 18, 2019)

Dunno. It's a research plot, they do weird stuff apparently just to get data.


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## Xnke (Apr 18, 2019)

So about a week ago, the fencerow buds emerged. Starting at the end, I could have left this "cordon" 70ft long and it would have filled in quite nicely as it does every year, but I wanted to experiment with growing other grapes so it got bobbed back to about 10ft long.

Here's the buds, you can see two on the cane plus one more down at the base, on the main vine.







A wider shot of the next two canes back:






All of the other rooting attempts have been moved outside, it's now 65-80 degrees out, and will be until end of June, when temps will start living in the 80's and 90's. August will be 85 to somewhat rare 100F, cooling off in September back to 75F and then mid-October we'll start seeing 50's at night again.

This group is the fencerow grape in the small pots, and the original syrah and vidal blanc cuttings in the two big green ones. Some of the vidal blanc cuttings are starting to swell buds, while the syrah are not so much. All of them are still green, though.






This group is the second group of cuttings-Cab sauv and Syrah. These were soaked in water for a few hours, then into a bag of moist peat and zip-locked, then put on the top of my computer monitor for two weeks. The Syrah all budded out and started growing, and one of the Cab Sauv opened up. I didn't get on the ball fast though and the Syrah started to brown up and die back where it was touching the bag.

Now, before you say that's crazy, what are you doing...this is how I do hardwood rose cuttings. Cut them off the plant, into rooting compound, then into dirt. Cut the base of a 2-liter soda bottle off, and it's now a private greenhouse. The soda bottle stays until the plant has enough roots to show near the bottom of the pot. It works. To control humidity, you take the cap off the soda bottle, or leave it on but unscrewed, or screw it right down.






Even though it's only been three or four minutes, you can see humidity collecting on the inside of the still-sealed greenhouses-I let them go like this for two days then unscrew the cap and let it sit on top, unless the temperature gets over 80 on the porch-then the caps come off and I water a bit more frequently. 

Cab sauv #1 still has never broken buds, but 32 has a very nice single green leaf and short new cane growing. Syrahs 1-3 all have 1 bud open and about 1.5" of cane, but the leaves turned brown where they hit the bag and shriveled back-I am hoping that secondary buds can make up for the damage. Syrah 3 had two buds open up, although one was and is still buried below the surface of the soil. Maybe that will encourage rooting?

Note I don't intend to have these grow on their own roots-the rooting process is combination of practice and ensuring I will have viable budwood even if there is a mishap at the university yards or a change in faculty, and I loose access. The 3309C that was left ungrafted had 13 buds opening up on it-I took off 4 of them, leaving no more than two in each location it was budding out at. Once the 3309C has viable green canes, I'll cut the number back to only 4 canes left, and I'll root the others via the coke bottle method-this method works very well for green cuttings as well as hardwood cuttings.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 19, 2019)

Xnke said:


> Dunno. It's a research plot, they do weird stuff apparently just to get data.



I used to work at a college that had a OSU research plot, and I spent time checking it out (and the greenhouse) all the time. Got to know the guys pretty well as I was always bugging them with questions. Didn't know if it had come up in conversation. These folks are usually eager to share info about what they are doing (usually).


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 19, 2019)

CabEnthusiast said:


> I have a lot of issues whenever it rains with downy mildew i have yet to have any powdery mildew which is weird.
> 
> I battle insects mostly eating the leaves on my vines. About 2 years ago a farm planted some fruit trees with sharpshooters and didnt know and they got loose and have been absolutely assaulting everything in the area. My grapes are mostly on rootstock thats completely resistant to them 1103P cant be impacted by them.



It's the other way around for me. Rarely see DM, but PM seems to like most everything growing here. I suggest looking into Serenade for long term control.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 19, 2019)

Xnke said:


> So about a week ago, the fencerow buds emerged. Starting at the end, I could have left this "cordon" 70ft long and it would have filled in quite nicely as it does every year, but I wanted to experiment with growing other grapes so it got bobbed back to about 10ft long.
> 
> Note I don't intend to have these grow on their own roots-the rooting process is combination of practice and ensuring I will have viable budwood even if there is a mishap at the university yards or a change in faculty, and I loose access. The 3309C that was left ungrafted had 13 buds opening up on it-I took off 4 of them, leaving no more than two in each location it was budding out at. Once the 3309C has viable green canes, I'll cut the number back to only 4 canes left, and I'll root the others via the coke bottle method-this method works very well for green cuttings as well as hardwood cuttings.



Did you say you were planning on moving these to a permanent location? As that vine on the fence gets older, it may require a larger root ball to be moved with it in order to make it. As for the cuttings, patience is in order. If they haven't done anything by mid summer, then they failed. It can easily take a couple months. The 2 liter bottle cover is a tried and proven method to keep the cuttings and buds from drying out. I also have a spray bottle to mist the buds to keep them alive. Once the cutting drys out, game over.

Good luck.


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## Xnke (Apr 20, 2019)

First roots-4 weeks after I cut this errant cane off my Reliance red grape, the first roots are visible in the glass. Not at the bottom bud, but up right at the surface of the water, at the second bud on the stick!






You can see the little rice grains right at the meniscus of the water, these are the first roots I've seen out of all the grape cuttings I've tried so far. Got lots of cuttings growing green, but nothing has ever formed any kind of callus, and these are the first roots!

The fencerow vine will stay at the current house. Any vines I take or plan to take will be in pots, or will be dormant cuttings that I'll root and bench graft this winter.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 20, 2019)

I like it! I'll have to try this.


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## Xnke (Apr 21, 2019)

Now that it has tiny rootlets in the liquid, I added two drops of 2-15-15 liquid fertilizer to the water, which would be a normal dose. The fertilizer liquid contains rooting auxins as well, so hopefully I'll see the top growth slow up and more roots push out over the next week or so, and then it'll be time to put this one in the dirt.

I still need to figure out how the heck to get cuttings to callus up, though-without that callus tissue, it seems that they will grow greens but no roots when put into dirt-the sticks that are 6 weeks old yet still have no callusing, no roots, and the soil they are in was kept between 75 and 85 degrees for three weeks. I've got to have been doing something wrong to have this divergent of a result from all the data I can find that says "go this way", but I haven't got it nailed down to what it is yet.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 21, 2019)

Keep me posted.


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## Xnke (Apr 25, 2019)

Vidal Blanc has budded out today, and 3309C has opened up with three thick, short shoots. Cabernet Sav has 1 leaf, and Syrah has two open buds but the top one's leaf died back two days ago.

The chip budded vines are not doing much, in fact the rootstock that I grafted onto seems to not be doing anything now...it was planted the same day as the other that has the three shoots on it, but none of the buds have opened up at all. Guess it should be healing the graft?


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 26, 2019)

Patience is the name of the game at this point. You could always do the scratch test and see if there is green still. I'd wait til May for this. No green = dead material.


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## Xnke (Apr 26, 2019)

I figure if it hasn't done anything by June, I'll have a closer look. Might need more water, but seems more like its either in root growing mode or just a stick in a bucket.

If its still just a stick at the end of June, I'll make a decision then on replanting.


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## Xnke (Apr 27, 2019)

Here's an update on the cuttings:

These two have been leafed out like this for a week-ish, leaves are covered in dense white hairs. This is the fencerow vine.






This Syrah cutting had a nice leaf on there, but it rotted off because it was up against the bag in the peat moss. It's budding out a second stem at the next lower node.






Cab Sauv is still looking good, this leaf hasn't changed in a week but it's still nice and green. The shoot is starting to grow out under it, but is less than 1/2" long.






The Vidal Blanc cuttings...they're NOT Vidal Blanc. They're *VILLARD* Blanc. Went over to the vineyard today for the greenhouse sale, and noticed that I've been calling it by the wrong name this whole time!






Here's the Syrah vine I took my cuttings from, in the University yards.






And a shot of my field graft on the fencerow vine, nothing happening here yet.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 28, 2019)

Looks good so far.


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## Xnke (Apr 30, 2019)

Well we're gonna see who's got roots and who doesn't. I was able to see some roots out the bottom of the containers in some of the pots, but not most. So, I dosed them with Dyna-Gro 9-3-6. They'll break dormancy and grow green if they've got roots.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 30, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> It's the other way around for me. Rarely see DM, but PM seems to like most everything growing here. I suggest looking into Serenade for long term control.



I meant to say DM. DM is what I see a lot of on the grapes. I do get PM, but mostly on other crops.


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## Xnke (May 5, 2019)

Things are going pretty OK here lately-if the stupid cats would stop walking along the fencerow and breaking off the new growth on the fencerow grapes.

The current surviving count is:

1 Cabernet Sauvingon
3 Syrah
3 Villard Blanc
1 Mars
1 Reliance
1 3309C
1 3309C with Syrah grafted bud-bud is healed but not growing, rootstock is starting to grow out above it.

And 7 Fencerow Specials.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 6, 2019)

I'll be interested in how the Cabernet Sauvingon does in your zone.


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## Xnke (May 6, 2019)

Probably not going to do much this year, living in a wet bucket. Monsoon rains every three or four days again this spring.

I hate the years it does this. Rain all weekend and part of the week, then 90% humidity and 85f the rest of the week. Shuts down any kind of growing anything until June.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 6, 2019)

Tell me about it. My spring order of vines has shipped and the rows where they go have standing water. Today there was no rain, but I need at least three days with little to no rain. Looks like it will be a muddy affair later this week when the vines arrive. I suppose I could consider growing rice!


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## Xnke (May 7, 2019)

Well, both field grafts failed. Went out today and could see a gap between the chip buds and the rootstock.

After looking closer at the rootstock from Novavine, I can see why-the grafting cut matched up very nicely but zero callusing happened. The vine is growing, so I guess I've spent my chance on that one, I will have to wait until next year to try again.

If I had bud sticks the right size to do the 7 little fencerow grapes, I'd take a chance with one of them but I only have one that is large enough to try it on, and it's also my best rooted one. It probably wouldn't take anyway.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 8, 2019)

It's unfortunately a hit or miss process. I only have about a 50% success rate with rooting, so the soil goes to the compost pile and the dead cutting gets pitched. There's always next year. Looks like I may have to replace a couple of vines that don't appear to be coming out of dormancy. I'll wait for a while, but I have replacements already rooted. If not, the newly rooted vines will go to fill out another row this fall.


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## Xnke (May 9, 2019)

Tried again on the grafting. The bark slipped much easier this time, I thought I was doing it right last time but maybe I was just too early. Cutting the bud seats in the fence row rootings was easier, they cut flatter and straighter and the wood chip just fell out of the bark. The Syrah budstick seemed to be easier to cut than the last one, too.

Tying them still sucks, I bound them on a bit tighter with the parafilm spun into cord a few turns, and then wrapped it normally to seal in the moisture. The final tie off is still difficult at best.

Three more grafts to watch till the end of the month, hopefully the higher average temperature will encourage more healing and less failure.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 9, 2019)

Good luck.


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## Masbustelo (May 9, 2019)

Xnke For grafting, you might want to experiment with teflon tape.


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## Xnke (May 10, 2019)

Yeah, have read about using it. I'll give it a go sometime.


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## Xnke (May 14, 2019)

Well these grafts didn't get much if a chance. The day after grafting, the weather turned off cold and it's been in the 50s all week. Supposed to warm up again Thursday, but a week in the 50s after being grafted in 80 degree weather can't help things.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 15, 2019)

It's been so wet here and I think I'm getting dead arm canter on some of my Concords. I'll be spraying today as it's the first day without rain and cold for quite a while.


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## Xnke (May 29, 2019)

Another syrah field graft dead. Cat got at it and chewed the grafting tape off, wallered it right out of the pot.

Both Syrah rootings and the Cab Sauv rooting dried up and died back. 2 Villard Blanc are OK. 1 is struggling in the heat. Unfortunately, one of the nicely growing cuttings has lost its label...not sure what it is.

The green-shoot rooting of Viogner was doing well, until we had a week of 90+ degree heat. I am about to the point of giving up for the year and waiting until fall comes to work with these again.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 29, 2019)

It's not been a good year. I have 2 vines struggling.


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## Xnke (May 29, 2019)

I am tempted to stop by the university again and see how Their vinefera is doing-it is in a no-spray block this year. The Villard, chamborcin, and Frontenac are all doing very well over there, and my Villard Blanc here is doing OK-ish.


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## Dennis Griffith (May 29, 2019)

Please do. I am curious on what they have seen this year and their thoughts on such.


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## Xnke (Jun 4, 2019)

Keep meaning to post back here, keep forgetting.

Looks like one of my grafts might make it. The one the cat chewed on is healed up, but not growing, and the other is healed up and not growing but looks like the better union. The plastic has fallen off both. Is there anything I can do to encourage some growth, or will these not sprout out til next year?


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 4, 2019)

They will sprout as long as their is life in them (and it's not winter). They may lie dormant for a short period, but they need to have leaves out to survive.


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## Xnke (Jun 4, 2019)

The top growth is still there. Not like they are just dead sticks, just these buds are still either dormant or dead.

I guess I could pinch the shoot tip off and see if it forces anything.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 4, 2019)

A scratch test on the woody part will tell if it's still green. If it's a vibrant fresh green, then it's still alive. If it's a dull, dry green, then it's on the way out. No green = dead.


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## Masbustelo (Jun 5, 2019)

Grapes are probably different, but I have some apple tree grafts I made nine weeks ago that are leafing out this week.


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## Xnke (Jun 5, 2019)

Yep, they're dead too. I'll have to try again this winter, and try for dormant grafting.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 5, 2019)

Sorry. You learn from failure. I know that I try to improve each year if I see an outcome that could be better.


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## Xnke (Jun 5, 2019)

So I took some photos a few weeks back of the University vines, in the Vinifera section. They're much more leafed out at this point. The rows are mostly empty, only the first 40 feet or so have vines planted.
































Zweigelt has another row to the right of the photo-That row is all 101-14Mgt.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 6, 2019)

I'd be worried if they were my grapes, but I don't know what they are trying to achieve. Several look dead. You took these recently, right?


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## Xnke (Jun 6, 2019)

This was a week and a half after they started leafing out, so several weeks ago.

Many of them are dying out, as they were student grafted and not all of them were well protected through the winters, the last two having been particularly cold for the area.

They are all on 101-14MGT roots, and the plants that have survived the winters well are supposedly good producers-they have set quite a bit of fruit since these photos were taken. We will see, I guess.

Like I said earlier-they are doing nothing with this section this year. In the fall they will all be pulled and replanted with student-grafted vines again, with the grafting done in February and planting in April.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 6, 2019)

Well, the leaves on those vines that are growing at least look healthy. Have you ask what issues they have to tend with each year?


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## Xnke (Jun 7, 2019)

Mostly anthracnose and black rot. So far this year, no black rot for them or me, but we both have some anthracnose. 

I did find out why the vines were dying out. They have a serious crown gall infection, one they have been fighting since day 1. After the winter kill, many of the vines succumbed to one or the other, so thats why the block "reboot". The instructor showed me this yesterday when. I was there.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 7, 2019)

Did they mention what they use to treat this?


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## Xnke (Jun 25, 2019)

Apparently there is kind of soil treatment to prevent crown gall but in this case it's too little, too late. The very few healthy plants are all too likely to succumb to it eventually.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 25, 2019)

Plant in a new spot and burn the old vines could be a course of action. If it's wide spread, they have an issue. Planting new vines in the same spot may result in the same problem as gall comes from a type of bacteria in the soil. Some vineyards will dig out the soil and replace it when planting new vines.


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## Xnke (Jun 26, 2019)

It may not be needed. There was wide usage of string trimmers at the time, and they think string trimmer damage combined with poor graft hygiene is what caused their problem, as if it was soil bound they would expect every plant to be affected to some degree.

I am going to ask about using a section of their (seriously overbuilt, using telephone pole sections) trellis for grafting experiments this winter.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 26, 2019)

That would be cool. You (they) can get plastic guards to protect against trimmer damage. They are white plastic and look like a coiled spring so that they will expand as the vine grows. I use them for small trees and may start using them for older vines.


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## Xnke (Jun 28, 2019)

Nice. I'll need to get some of those I think, people get wild with string trimmers around here.

In other news, I gave up grafting the way it's done in the grape world, and went for doing it the way I grafted pepper plants onto tomato roots. Green-on-green cleft graft, wrapped in electrical tape. So far, one Mourvedre grafted onto 3309C has taken!


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 28, 2019)

Which type of grafts were you using? It looked like every one was a bud graft. You may want to try a cleft graft.


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## Xnke (Jun 29, 2019)

I was chip budding the way I did it with roses, but that only works with dormant wood, generally. I have never had any luck grafting dormant wood on green wood. 

The green-on-green grafts have been whip or cleft grafts. The cleft graft of Mourvedre onto 3309C has been the one that has healed and started pushing buds so far, and I am setting up to air later the rootstock next. Once it has roots, I'll try to sever it from the mother plant.


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## Masbustelo (Jun 29, 2019)

Here is a grape grafting technique I ran across today. Air layering is generally very easy to do, either using plastic bottles, or burying part of the vine. ....The vine, however, does not unite as readily as pear and apple would when grafted. To ensure success, grape vines must be grafted under ground, which makes the operation a difficult and disagreeable one. It will therefore hardly become a general practice; but, for the purposes above named, is of sufficient importance, to make it desirable that every vineyardist should be able to perform it. Generally the best time to successfully graft in the Midwest is in about the middle of March, in the following manner: Dig away the ground around the vine you wish to graft, until you come to a smooth place to insert your scion; then cut off the vine with a sharp knife, and insert one or two scions, as in common cleft-grafting, taking care to cut the wedge on the scion very thin, with shoulders on both sides, cutting your scion with two eyes to better insure success.
Great care must be taken to insert the scion properly, as the inner bark or liber of the vine is very thin, and the success of the operation depends upon a perfect junction of the stock and scion. If the vine is strong enough to hold the scion firmly, no further bandage is necessary; if not, it should be wound firmly and evenly with bass bark. Then press the soil firmly on the cut, and fill up the hole with well-pulverized earth, to the top of the scion. Examine the stock from time to time, and remove all wild shoots and suckers, which it may throw up, as they will rob the graft of nourishment and enfeeble it. Source NDSU plant propagation.


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## Masbustelo (Jun 29, 2019)

Grafting dormant scions onto green wood. Subtitles in English.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 29, 2019)

Air layering is good with a variety that does well in your area being 'own rooted'. Here (Ohio), there are several varieties that need to be grafted onto a root stock that will tolerate clay soils. All my varieties are native types and 'own rooted', except for cab franc. It's on 101-14.


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## Masbustelo (Jun 29, 2019)

Here is grafting green on green.


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## Xnke (Jun 29, 2019)

Depending on if I can find appropriatly sized scion wood, I'll graft a "grape of many colors" and then when pruning this year I'll cut each grafted cane back and root it this winter. 

A kind of divide and conquer approach, if you will.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jun 30, 2019)

It would be interesting. I have apple trees grafted like that.


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## Xnke (Jul 1, 2019)

The advantage there is that my rootstock plants are growing tiny, thin canes on them. I have plenty of green material the same size, so attempting the graft costs nothing-it is very unlikely I'll have any material to bench graft onto this year.


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## Xnke (Jul 4, 2019)

Alright, some of my 101-14 cuttings are rooted and growing, and 4 out of 6 grafts seem to have taken. 3 of those 6 are grafts done on unbolted cuttings that now have tiny roots started.

Things are looking good this week!


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 5, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> Plant in a new spot and burn the old vines could be a course of action. If it's wide spread, they have an issue. Planting new vines in the same spot may result in the same problem as gall comes from a type of bacteria in the soil. Some vineyards will dig out the soil and replace it when planting new vines.



Speaking of crown gall, I've got a vine with it. There is a couple of treatment methods. One is an inoculation bath that you can soak your vines in before planting or after digging them up while dormant, soak them, and then replant as you would a bare root. The other involves the use of a anti-bacterial paint. You either cut off the gall or scrape off what you can, let sit for a day, then paint this stuff on. It will take a while to see results either way you go. So, I need to buy a half gallon jug of Gallex. Anyone have a supply of it that will sell me one jug? It comes in a case of 6 - half gallon jugs, and I don't want to buy 6. One jug will last me for a while.


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## Xnke (Jul 22, 2019)

So far, the green work has been only somewhat successful. I have rooted 8 out of 36 cuttings of 101-14, 4 out of 18 cuttings of 3309C, and the green grafting failed completely until I realized I had entirely the wrong tape for the job. Since I switched to Parafilm tape, I have been 3 for 3 on green grafts!

I am testing a new approach to green rooting now too, by covering the whole cutting except the single leaf and the cut end below ground with the Parafilm, I hope to reduce the water loss in the cutting. Same principle as wrapping the green cutting with film on a graft, just applied to rooting. 

We'll see how it does, right nowy rooted rootstock cuttings gave until mid October to grow up and harden off for chip budding next year. (If they make it that far!)


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 23, 2019)

Post some pics at some point.


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## Xnke (Jul 23, 2019)

As soon as I get home before dark, I'll try to get some photos. The weather conspires against me-I started those cuttings during very stable 80 to 85F temperatures...now it's swinging from 80 down to 70 at night, and a full third of the cuttings have turned brown since Monday night.


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## Xnke (Jul 23, 2019)

So, for the few days that these were pinched down to a single leaf, they were fine, then they were good with the few small leaves, but now that it's gotten cooler...the leaves have browned. Any dead stems have been removed, but any with green buds still on them have been left-these will likely not root now but there's no harm in trying, as this is the last batch I'll have time to root and grow out this summer. I will trim these back to a single leaf tonight, to limit water loss. Back row is Malbec, then two Syrah, then 8 Zweigalt, and the "control" cutting is a 3309C close enough to the front of the box I can see root formation when it happens.







These are cuttings that are rooted, but may or may not survive. Any with a plastic bag over them are still very tender leaved and wilt easily-the one on the far end, front row had it's bag blown off today while I was at work, and the leaves wilted back severely-they may not come back now.






Here's lil wilty:






These two, (one is inside it's 2-liter greenhouse, as the cooler temps have been hurtful to it's tiny leaves too, apparently) are both 101-14, and both have good root systems. Both were cuttings taken near the end of the original shoot, but in the area just firm enough to cut-not the floppy actively growing tip, but just below it. Most of my successful cuttings have been about this size, and have been 2-bud cuttings.






The rooting chamber (they live in here about two weeks) is just a home despot flip-top clear container. Four holes poked in the bottom for drainage, and cuttings misted daily.






The tall white pots are just vinyl downspout, with fiberglass drywall tape drawn over the ends and duct taped into place. Reusable, 8" tall, 2x4 pots that allow good root growth, and discourage root binding.


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## Masbustelo (Jul 24, 2019)

I see what and why you are doing. But.. somehow things look to wet and your setting yourself up for damping off disease. Somehow you need to apply a mildewcide.


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## Xnke (Jul 24, 2019)

Oh yeah, things are wet. Every day the cutting get misted with a weak solution of Captan or Mancozeb, depending on the week. (1/10 normal strength for field spraying)

If you allow them to not be constantly wet, they will shrivel and die in hours after the first two or three days.


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## Xnke (Jul 24, 2019)

Today, I picked up all the white downspout pots and every single one of them has at least two root tips showing, so there's 3 more 3309 and 9 more 101-14 rooting successes. The plastic bags will get opened up a little at a time for a few hours each day to harden them off, then once the bags come off, I'll move them into stronger sun a little at a time over a week. 

The 3309 in the rooting chamber has pushed out one root, when I see a good mess of roots and all the other cuttings are good and green, I'll start propping the lid of the box open a little, until it's full open, over about a two week period. Any cuttings that survive that will get transplanted into 1 gallon pots and moved out into the sun with the others.

I've been giving up on these things too easily, I had completely forgotten about one in the back of the watering tray, behind the white downspout pots, that was a 101-14 cutting that had turned brown and hard, and all the buds and the single leaf had fallen off. I saw it today, and tried to pull it from the pot-Nope. The next node down was below the soil level and was still vibrant green, and had LOTS of roots growing out the bottom of the pot...so it got potted up and the green node set just above soil level to get a little sunshine. I think it'll grow now too.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 25, 2019)

I put my cuttings that haven't shown growth outside in one of the raised tomato beds when past frost to see if they may still come to life. I usually get a few surprises. I just tossed the dead ones for this year a couple of weeks ago. None had any root action when I pulled them. I had enough that did, and I've already placed a couple in the vineyard. The rest as in pots for planting in the fall. After growing in pots, you need to trim roots at planting time to ensure good root growth next year.


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 25, 2019)

Xnke said:


> (one is inside it's 2-liter greenhouse, as the cooler temps have been hurtful to it's tiny leaves too, apparently) are both 101-14, and both have good root systems. Both were cuttings taken near the end of the original shoot, but in the area just firm enough to cut-not the floppy actively growing tip, but just below it. Most of my successful cuttings have been about this size, and have been 2-bud cuttings.
> The tall white pots are just vinyl downspout, with fiberglass drywall tape drawn over the ends and duct taped into place. Reusable, 8" tall, 2x4 pots that allow good root growth, and discourage root binding.[/QUOTE
> 
> GREAT photos! Will try vinyl tubes next time I do some.


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## Xnke (Jul 27, 2019)

The lid of the rooting chamber got propped open last night. It will stay open about 1/2" for the next few days, then I'll open it an inch, then by Friday I'll have it open to free air. Unfortunately that means anything with no roots will die out this week.


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## Mike Dunlap (Jul 28, 2019)

We planted 2200 vines 19 years ago. When we prune, we half fill two five gallon buckets with water and cuttings. When bud beak rolls around, we have leaves on the cuttings and use them as replacement vines or give the buckets to friends wanting to start vineyards. Not the proper rootstock but they grow and produce grapes. 

We live in San Diego County so have milder seasons than others may contend with. 

Nice forum. I am new to the site.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 28, 2019)

Welcome to the forum. You have great weather in San Diego. Lived there for about 2 1/2 years.


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