# Harford Vineyard Chilean Grape/Juice Pickup



## Boatboy24

Looks like most of the Chilean grapes and all juice buckets will be in and available for pickup beginning Friday at 8am. I'm either going to get there when they open, or around noon. Anyone else headed up that day. Would love to meet and swap a few bottles if you're interested.


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## ceeaton

Okay, thought I wasn't going to get the day off due to a new project coming in, but got the day off.

I plan on being there in the morning, hopefully by 10 am if all goes well.


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## Boatboy24

OK, keep me posted. 

If I want to get up there in the morning, I have to leave at the crack of dawn (which would put me there around 8:00 or 8:30, otherwise I'm sitting on DC Beltway traffic). But I can always stop for breakfast somewhere north of B'more, or meet my sister (who lives in Towson) for coffee. That'd get me there 9-10.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> OK, keep me posted.
> 
> If I want to get up there in the morning, I have to leave at the crack of dawn (which would put me there around 8:00 or 8:30, otherwise I'm sitting on DC Beltway traffic). But I can always stop for breakfast somewhere north of B'more, or meet my sister (who lives in Towson) for coffee. That'd get me there 9-10.



I may be able to get there by 9:15 am if my traffic heading down 83 isn't terrible. 10 am is a safer bet in general. Don't fret if we can't meet up this time. I plan on doing Spring and Fall juice every year that I can. I'll P.M. you my cell phone and you can text it if you get there early and I can let you know of my progress so you don't hang around waiting.


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## berrycrush

Sounds like I will miss you guys. I'll go Saturday.


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## ceeaton

berrycrush said:


> Sounds like I will miss you guys. I'll go Saturday.



I usually go Saturday morning with my Wife and we make it into a "date" day (our anniversary is May 17th, close enough) and go for a long leisurely lunch before getting back to the madness that is four kids. She has to work this weekend, so she has Friday off but has to study for her algebra final. I'd much rather pickup juice buckets and take a pretty drive than study for that!

Maybe in the fall.


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## Johnd

My Chileans are due to be destemmed, crushed, and frozen in buckets shortly. The buckets will stay in the freezer until all of the fresh grape and juice folks get their stuff, and all grape shipments have been processed, I'm still a few weeks away from receipt............


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## ceeaton

John, do those get sent to your doorstep then or do you have to go pick them up? Just curious because I think Boatboy Jim has to make two trips since some of his whole grapes weren't in the first shipment. I lucked out and my Pinot Noir grapes did come in so I can just make one trip like I did last Spring. Something to be said for them delivered to you directly if that is the case.

I really did like the grapes I got last year from Harford. Good price and nice quality as far as I can tell.


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> John, do those get sent to your doorstep then or do you have to go pick them up? Just curious because I think Boatboy Jim has to make two trips since some of his whole grapes weren't in the first shipment. I lucked out and my Pinot Noir grapes did come in so I can just make one trip like I did last Spring. Something to be said for them delivered to you directly if that is the case.
> 
> I really did like the grapes I got last year from Harford. Good price and nice quality as far as I can tell.



I lucked out - another reason I love Harford Vineyard. They ordered extra grapes of most varietals, so they are letting me swap. 

At nearly two hours each way, and with work and kids in sports, I can't make two trips each harvest.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> I lucked out - another reason I love Harford Vineyard. They ordered grapes of most varietals, so they are letting me swap.
> 
> At nearly two hours each way, and with work and kids in sports, I can't make two trips each harvest.



That means they'll have extras...gotta leave the cards at home and bring cash or I'll buy more!


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## Tnuscan

ceeaton said:


> That means they'll have extras...gotta leave the cards at home and bring cash or I'll buy more!



Come on :: take the cards it's not like it will go to waste.::


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## heatherd

They usually do have some tempting extras. That's how I got my Seyval Blanc.

I am skipping Spring this year and doing the Fall harvest.


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## Boatboy24

heatherd said:


> They usually do have some tempting extras. That's how I got my Seyval Blanc.
> 
> I am skipping Spring this year and doing the Fall harvest.



Yep. You know I'll be picking up some of their Traminette!! 

I'm tempted to do another bucket of Viognier. But I'm really strapped for carboy space.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep. You know I'll be picking up some of their Traminette!!
> 
> I'm tempted to do another bucket of Viognier. But I'm really strapped for carboy space.



And they had a few extra buckets for sure. Was impressed with Jim's will power! I only had room for three buckets in the back seat and was told a forth bucket was not an option before leaving this morning.

If you are reading this post and still want to pick up from Harford, call them or go to the website. You can still order _some_ of the grapes as their second shipment hasn't even reached port yet (I think he said the Port of NJ).


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> And they had a few extra buckets for sure. Was impressed with Jim's will power!



I was saved by the fact that there were no extra Viognier buckets. Had there been, I'd have come home with one of those AND a new carboy. And you loaded me up with so much wine that it was easy. 

I did grab two bottles of the Traminette. It was too easy to convince you and Jeff to grab some as well.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> ... It was too easy to convince you and Jeff to grab some as well.



I believe there is a term for Jim, evil enabler ::


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> I believe there is a term for Jim, evil enabler ::



I've been called worse...


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## Boatboy24

Went down and took some measurements early this morning.

Camenere: 3.70 pH, 1.088 SG

Merlot: 3.45, 1.086

Syrah: 3.68, 1.086

Cab Sauv: 3.44, 1.084

Cab and Merlot were fermenting already. 

Pitched BM4X4 on the Cab and D254 on the Merlot. Will get the other two this afternoon.


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## ceeaton

Now that I got some new test solution for the TA, here's what I got:

Pinot Noir: pH 3.69, TA 3.5g/L, SG 1.085
Pinot Grigio #1: pH 3.55, TA 4.2 g/L, SG 1.083
Pinot Grigio #2: pH 3.55, TA 4.3 g/L, SG 1.083

Plan on adjusting acids on all (1/2 way only, then retest in a day or so), and pitching RC 212 on the Pinot Noir, and QA23 on one of the Pinot Grigio buckets and D47 on the other.

Added the normal Booster Blanc, FT Blanc Soft to the whites and Lallazyme EX to the grapes and Opti-red and FT Rouge to the Red.

Will rehydrate yeasts in Go Ferm and eventually add two doses of Fermaid O to everything as it progresses through fermentation.


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## balassley

I was there Friday. Fast and courteous, though they probably should have chosen a different week to repave their drive. I was tempted to ask if I could purchase another grape varietal last minute, but this was a practice run (my 1st grapes). I'll definitely be back in the fall, doubling my order.


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## ceeaton

balassley said:


> I was there Friday. Fast and courteous, though they probably should have chosen a different week to repave their drive. I was tempted to ask if I could purchase another grape varietal last minute, but this was a practice run (my 1st grapes). I'll definitely be back in the fall, doubling my order.



Yea, that driveway was a challenge in my little Corolla. I had to drive with one tire on the grass on the way out. Hope Teresa feels a bit better, what a week to get your knee worked on! Once again my grapes were in great condition and the juice buckets seem as high quality as they were last year. Love making inexpensive wine with good ingredients.


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## Boatboy24

Well, we got back from our fundraiser 5k and the whole house stunk! I had a hint of H2S this morning in the Cab and Merlot, and gave each of them a rounded tsp of FermaidO. I'm hoping that I can get rid of that by tonight. It just hit you right in the face when you walked in the door. Mrs. Boatboy is not exactly thrilled right now.


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## ceeaton

Well, I didn't pitch yeasts until yeasterday, and all three are going well. No off aromas on the Pinot Grigio's (drilled larger hole in lids for airlocks, added 1/2 Fermaid O addition), actually the one with the QA 23 reminded me of 7-up.

On the other hand the Pinot Noir seemed fine until I took the lid off this morning to squeeze the grape bag. Slight sulfur odor, so I added Fermaid O to that one too. All measured around 1.080 to 1.078, so definitely going pretty well. 

I'm happily listening to dueling airlocks on the PG's, drinking a Yuengling, and surfing the internet.


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## Boatboy24

By this morning, things are humming along and the yeast are smelling happy again. The Carm still has a very slight H2S smell, so I gave it another 1/4 tsp of FermaidO.

BTW: Color on all 4 wines is exceptional so far.


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## ceeaton

Squeezed the grape bag on the Pinot Noir this morning and again when I got home from work. Was approximately 1.070 this morning, 1.060 tonight. Plan on adding my other 1/2 addition of Fermaid O tomorrow afternoon after work. Some organic smell but not much of any HSO2. Down here in the basement the Pinot Grigio's smell like candy, makes me want to dive in!


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## balassley

ceeaton said:


> Squeezed the grape bag on the Pinot Noir this morning and again when I got home from work. Was approximately 1.070 this morning, 1.060 tonight. Plan on adding my other 1/2 addition of Fermaid O tomorrow afternoon after work. Some organic smell but not much of any HSO2. Down here in the basement the Pinot Grigio's smell like candy, makes me want to dive in!


Enjoying the fermenting smell myself (Syrah). Ever stuck your head into the fermenter and taken a big whiff? Nearly knocked me on my butt today haha


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## ceeaton

balassley said:


> Enjoying the fermenting smell myself (Syrah). Ever stuck your head into the fermenter and taken a big whiff? Nearly knocked me on my butt today haha



Yes, that is one of the Rites of Spring! Keep us up to date on how that Syrah turns out. I'm trying to pick the Spring varieties off one by one. That one was on the short list for this Spring. Just did the Pinot Noir because I didn't know any better, and knew nothing about the variety. Best way to learn sometimes is to force the issue.


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## Boatboy24

balassley said:


> Enjoying the fermenting smell myself (Syrah). Ever stuck your head into the fermenter and taken a big whiff? Nearly knocked me on my butt today haha



I always stick my head in the fermenter for a whiff. But I first remove the lid, then 'wave off' some of the CO2 with the lid itself, or my hands. I've come close to knocking myself out once or twice, so I learned that lesson. 

I'm getting a lot of green pepper from my Syrah. Did you do a bucket? Grapes? Combo? I did one bucket with two lugs of grapes. It smells really good overall, but that green pepper is definitely present.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> ..., but that green pepper is definitely present.



I've often wondered if that (bell pepper taste/aroma) is a sign that the grapes were picked a bit early. I have that in my Dornfelder from last fall, and though it is diminishing with time, I wonder if that is just part of the grapes' flavor profile or if the grapes were picked a bit early.

From the research I've done on Dornfelder, it is rare that the grape will ripen with a Brix above 20. So I wonder if it is just a part of its natural flavor profile.

Maybe in the fall I can give you a bottle of the Dornfelder and you can use your taste buds to see what you think. Research, research and more research.


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> I've often wondered if that (bell pepper taste/aroma) is a sign that the grapes were picked a bit early. I have that in my Dornfelder from last fall, and though it is diminishing with time, I wonder if that is just part of the grapes' flavor profile or if the grapes were picked a bit early.
> 
> From the research I've done on Dornfelder, it is rare that the grape will ripen with a Brix above 20. So I wonder if it is just a part of its natural flavor profile.
> 
> Maybe in the fall I can give you a bottle of the Dornfelder and you can use your taste buds to see what you think. Research, research and more research.



From what I've read, it is from grapes picked too early. The relatively low SG on this wine would support that. Unfortunately, (also from what I've read) there's very little you can do about it post-harvest. My 2014 Carmenere had it as well and it did fade - thought not completely.


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## sour_grapes

Boatboy24 said:


> Unfortunately, (also from what I've read) there's very little you can do about it post-harvest.



No direct experience, but BM45 and GRE are said to help with this. Maybe the BM4x4 will suffice.


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## Boatboy24

sour_grapes said:


> No direct experience, but BM45 and GRE are said to help with this. Maybe the BM4x4 will suffice.



Too bad I'm using RP15. 

Funny thing is, I had purchased GRE for this ferment. At the last second (literally, as I was about to mix up the starter), I realized I had some RP15 and decided to switch.


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## sour_grapes

Oh, I saw upthread that you were using BM4x4. I now see this was on the Cab only.

I am sure it will be nice despite your early concerns!


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## balassley

Boatboy24 said:


> I always stick my head in the fermenter for a whiff. But I first remove the lid, then 'wave off' some of the CO2 with the lid itself, or my hands. I've come close to knocking myself out once or twice, so I learned that lesson.
> 
> I'm getting a lot of green pepper from my Syrah. Did you do a bucket? Grapes? Combo? I did one bucket with two lugs of grapes. It smells really good overall, but that green pepper is definitely present.


I did all grapes, six lugs total. I purchased a WineEasy and so I sort of felt obligated to go all grapes, otherwise the WineEasy would be wasted money.


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## balassley

So MLF is a week or so away. I bought enough Opti Malo Plus and Acti-ML for my 6-8 gallons of wine, but the VP41 says it's good for 66 gallons! They can't sell this in smaller quantities? Anyhow, is it safe to dump it all in or should I try and measure it out?


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## ceeaton

I personally would dump it all in. Some here have said it can be stored short term if well wrapped and frozen. Never tried it, so I dumped it in. Maybe you'll just have to make larger quantities next time!


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## balassley

ceeaton said:


> I personally would dump it all in. Some here have said it can be stored short term if well wrapped and frozen. Never tried it, so I dumped it in. Maybe you'll just have to make larger quantities next time!


Sounds good. I'll dump it all in. I do plan on doubling my order next time.


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## Boatboy24

I recently took the plunge and got myself a GoPro. Just learning how to use it, but here's my first time lapse project: tonight's punchdowns

https://www.facebook.com/100010119555759/videos/vb.100010119555759/266932610320722/?type=2&theater

As of 6pm, my SG's are as follows:

Merlot: 1.030 and 1.022 (broke into two 6gal buckets)
Syrah: 1.036
Carmenere: 1.042 and 1.032 (broke into to 6gal buckets)
Cab Sauv: 1.026

I'm thinking I'll 'press' and move to glass on Thurs - Have an overnight with the Cub Scouts on Friday.


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## balassley

Boatboy24 said:


> I recently took the plunge and got myself a GoPro. Just learning how to use it, but here's my first time lapse project: tonight's punchdowns
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/100010119555759/videos/vb.100010119555759/266932610320722/?type=2&theater
> 
> As of 6pm, my SG's are as follows:
> 
> Merlot: 1.030 and 1.022 (broke into two 6gal buckets)
> Syrah: 1.036
> Carmenere: 1.042 and 1.032 (broke into to 6gal buckets)
> Cab Sauv: 1.026
> 
> I'm thinking I'll 'press' and move to glass on Thurs - Have an overnight with the Cub Scouts on Friday.


Cool vid. You've got a lot going on there.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> I recently took the plunge and got myself a GoPro. Just learning how to use it, but here's my first time lapse project: tonight's punchdowns
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/100010119555759/videos/vb.100010119555759/266932610320722/?type=2&theater
> 
> As of 6pm, my SG's are as follows:
> 
> Merlot: 1.030 and 1.022 (broke into two 6gal buckets)
> Syrah: 1.036
> Carmenere: 1.042 and 1.032 (broke into to 6gal buckets)
> Cab Sauv: 1.026
> 
> I'm thinking I'll 'press' and move to glass on Thurs - Have an overnight with the Cub Scouts on Friday.



I didn't pick up where you set your glass of wine in that video...


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> I didn't pick up where you set your glass of wine in that video...



You didn't see me sipping a spoonful of Merlot at the end?


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> You didn't see me sipping a spoonful of Merlot at the end?



Had to watch it again closely, I did see the sip, you get the free pass (like I'm the type that is allowed to give out passes). How long in real time was that video, you got quite a lot of work done in what didn't seem like a long time? I guess I didn't realize you got so many buckets and grapes until I watched that.

That work area does look nice and open. I need to do something in the basement, which will start with a utility tub. The kitchen work area I have is rather restricted, and I have to share to boot.


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> Had to watch it again closely, I did see the sip, you get the free pass (like I'm the type that is allowed to give out passes). How long in real time was that video, you got quite a lot of work done in what didn't seem like a long time? I guess I didn't realize you got so many buckets and grapes until I watched that.
> 
> That work area does look nice and open. I need to do something in the basement, which will start with a utility tub. The kitchen work area I have is rather restricted, and I have to share to boot.



IIRC, the whole process there took about 25 minutes, including once or twice where I left the room to answer a question from the Mrs. 

The room is completely cluttered and in need of a good tidying right now, but as I recall, the measurements are 13'x12' or 13'x11'. It's a nice little space. Also housed in there are a spare fridge and my 52 bottle wine cooler (which the camera was on). Ultimately, I want to put a wall in front of the HVAC, and will have a sink and counter there.


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## ceeaton

Checked gravities tonight after squeezing Pinot Noir bag.

Pinot Noir - 1.022 @ 70*F
Pinot Grigio #1 & #2 - 1.032 @ 64*F (ambient, wasn't going back up those stairs yet again for my thermometer).

All smells good to this point, slight sulphery odor in PN is a thing of the past, and hopefully stays in the past.


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> All smells good to this point, slight sulphery odor in PN is a thing of the past, and hopefully stays in the past.



Smooth sailing here as well. After FermaidO additions all has been well (I forgot to add the initial dose after fermentation started  ). And the Syrah, which had the strong pepper notes, has mellowed and has nice fruit, with a little pepper in the background. 

I didn't check SGs tonight, just stirred. I only check every couple days anyway during primary. I was also racking the LR Aglianico and racking/stabilizing the LR Sauvignon Blanc Rose. Things are progressing well though, and I'm still planning to press and rack tomorrow night, so I don't have to worry about it during my overnight with the Scouts on Friday.


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## balassley

I just pressed and racked my grapes using the WineEasy, which gave me 7.5 gallons (108 pounds of grapes). There was definitely some juice left (moist grapes), but the process was simple. I only got 3 gallons free run in my 6 gallon carboy before I had to turn on the motor to pull the press down. I then filled a 1 gallon jug, and then half of another 1 gallon jug. I'm planning to MLF the 6 gallon, and at a later date compare it to the wine that didn't go thru MLF. Let the experiment begin!


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## ceeaton

balassley said:


> I just pressed and racked my grapes using the WineEasy, which gave me 7.5 gallons (108 pounds of grapes). There was definitely some juice left (moist grapes), but the process was simple. I only got 3 gallons free run in my 6 gallon carboy before I had to turn on the motor to pull the press down. I then filled a 1 gallon jug, and then half of another 1 gallon jug. I'm planning to MLF the 6 gallon, and at a later date compare it to the wine that didn't go thru MLF. Let the experiment begin!



If you have room in your freezer, put those left over skins in as they can help improve the nose, flavor and mouth feel of a cheaper kit.

I put mine in a food saver bag, partially freeze, compact, freeze some more, then food save. I have some now from last September and they're looking good still (very little freezer burn).


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## balassley

ceeaton said:


> If you have room in your freezer, put those left over skins in as they can help improve the nose, flavor and mouth feel of a cheaper kit.
> 
> I put mine in a food saver bag, partially freeze, compact, freeze some more, then food save. I have some now from last September and they're looking good still (very little freezer burn).


Dang I tossed them already. Good tip though. I'll remember for next time.


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## ceeaton

balassley said:


> Dang I tossed them already. Good tip though. I'll remember for next time.



It is a good tip, and I got it from a few here I won't mention, might go to their heads, but they know who they are!


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## Boatboy24

Got all 4 racked/pressed tonight. I stopped at Lowes on the way home and grabbed a 2ft piece of 4" PVC, along with a cap for one end. I then, as @JohnT has suggested, drilled a 'gajillion' holes in it. Stuck that into the primaries and put the racking cane (hooked to the Allinone) inside that and racked the juice out while squeezing the remaining juice out of the grapes that were in paint strainer bags. The whole process - nearly 30 gallons of wine - took a little over 2 hours from setup through cleanup. 

Cabernet: 1.002
Merlot: 1.004
Syrah: 1.010
Carmenere: 1.012

Will hopefully rack off gross lees on Saturday and pitch MLB.


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## JohnT

Glad that worked out for you. Those column strainers are real handy..


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## ceeaton

Just squeezed the Pinot Noir bag and checked the SG, it was down to 1.010, so I'll have to rack it tonight after work and pizza. The Pinot Grigio(s) are both about .010 slower than the PN, but they are in their original buckets with the grommet drilled out and an airlock stuck in, so not too worried about moving those anytime soon.

Hopefully re-rack and pitch MLB in the Pinot Noir on Sunday if all goes well.


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## ceeaton

Finally got around to racking this today. Squeezed and put the very small quantity of grape stuff that was left in the paint strainer bag into an open ended food saver bag and stuck it in the freezer. Will seal it once the liquid freezes for a bit. Racked it to a 7.9 gallon fermentation bucket, and when I snapped the lid down to add an airlock, wine came out of the hole, so I put a StarSan soaked paper towel over the top. Plan on racking it to a 6 gallon glass carboy tomorrow and adding the MLF bacteria. SG was 0.998 @ 68*F.

Smells really good, doesn't taste as good. At this point would make a nice London Broil marinate and I've heard that really young Pinot Noir can be "gamey" with many obtuse flavors, but I do love the aroma!


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## balassley

ceeaton said:


> Finally got around to racking this today. Squeezed and put the very small quantity of grape stuff that was left in the paint strainer bag into an open ended food saver bag and stuck it in the freezer. Will seal it once the liquid freezes for a bit. Racked it to a 7.9 gallon fermentation bucket, and when I snapped the lid down to add an airlock, wine came out of the hole, so I put a StarSan soaked paper towel over the top. Plan on racking it to a 6 gallon glass carboy tomorrow and adding the MLF bacteria. SG was 0.998 @ 68*F.
> 
> Smells really good, doesn't taste as good. At this point would make a nice London Broil marinate and I've heard that really young Pinot Noir can be "gamey" with many obtuse flavors, but I do love the aroma!


"Smells really good, doesn't taste as good." That made me laugh. Same though, wine is of course undrinkable right now. CO2 in wine, yuck!


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## ceeaton

balassley said:


> "Smells really good, doesn't taste as good." That made me laugh. Same though, wine is of course undrinkable right now. CO2 in wine, yuck!



I kinda know what the wine will be like after the CO2 goes bye bye. But this really has all kinds of flavors I've never experienced in a young wine. First try at this Pinot Noir thing. Wasn't sure what to expect because it is from Chile. I can go get a Cali or Oregon or Washington State PN off the shelf pretty easily at the State Store, but Chilean PN's are hard to come by. Seen a few from Agrentina, but that is the closest I've sampled.


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## balassley

After my earlier rookie mistake, adding too much tartaric acid, I was able to correct the pH to 3.38 prior to fermentation. I tested again 36 hours after pressing and racking and was shocked to see my pH dropped to 3.2. Is this normal and something I should expect in the future? I decided to roll with it and added the VP41 this morning. Hoping MLF has a big impact raising pH.


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## ceeaton

MoreWinemaking.com seems to think VP41 goes down to a pH of 3.2. I'm sure there is some leeway there, since like anything, they aren't going to publish the absolute lowest pH it will work in. If you have some, or can order some Acti-ML and use it to rehydrate that bacterium, it might help it get going in those less than optimum conditions. It seemed pretty bullet proof to me as I think a Merlot MLF can give problems, for whatever reason, to MLF bacteria in general.

Hopefully some of the veterans will chime in and maybe give some good suggestions if there is a course of action that would improve your odds of the MLF to proceed normally.

I do know there is another strain that works at a lower pH, and worked fine for my Chardonel as well as my red Dornfelder batch. MoreWine sells it as Viniflora CH35, goes down to a pH of 3.0.

Hope that helps or gives you some ideas.

As far as the pH drop, I've seen it go both ways, might depend on the yeast and the variety of grape. Once again, people with more knowledge than I have will hopefully add their thoughts.


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## balassley

Yep, I used the Acti-ML. I got help on my low pH in another thread. I was just wondering if the pH drop after fermentation-press-rack was normal, or if it was more likely due to adding too much tartaric acid, and then correcting with potassium carbonate.


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## ceeaton

balassley said:


> I got help on my low pH in another thread.



What thread, I'm interested in the solution? Need to add tools to my tool box, ya know.


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## balassley

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53377

Or under Wine From Grapes, look for Tartaric Acid Mistake


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> I kinda know what the wine will be like after the CO2 goes bye bye. But this really has all kinds of flavors I've never experienced in a young wine. First try at this Pinot Noir thing. Wasn't sure what to expect because it is from Chile. I can go get a Cali or Oregon or Washington State PN off the shelf pretty easily at the State Store, but Chilean PN's are hard to come by. Seen a few from Agrentina, but that is the closest I've sampled.



Funny you mention that. I was searching for a PN for tomorrow when my MIL, mother and of course wife will all be here for dinner. I'm actually doing Greek style chicken pitas, but the only two big wine drinkers here will be me and my Dad. He generally just doesn't do white wine, so I was looking for a PN at the store (normally, I'd just go with a Rose, or a SB. My local Giant had 1, yes 1, PN that was NOT from California. There must have been 50 total. It was so disappointing and reminded me of why I was originally thinking of driving the extra 10 miles to Wegmans.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> ... but the only two big wine drinkers here will be me and my Dad. He generally just doesn't do white wine, so I was looking for a PN at the store (normally, I'd just go with a Rose, or a SB. ...



I think you need to add a PN to your cellar! If I like how this Pinot is doing in August I might try a Californian version of it this fall. I have some people who I want to give a wine too, but they seem to prefer a lighter red, which is the category I expect this wine I just made to fall into.


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## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> I think you need to add a PN to your cellar! If I like how this Pinot is doing in August I might try a Californian version of it this fall. I have some people who I want to give a wine too, but they seem to prefer a lighter red, which is the category I expect this wine I just made to fall into.



My first attempt hasn't turned out to well. But I'm toying with the idea of a bucket-n-grapes in the fall. I think I tend to be a little non-traditional in what I like for a PN though. Heavier body and more fruit tends to drive my appreciation of Pinots.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> My first attempt hasn't turned out to well. But I'm toying with the idea of a bucket-n-grapes in the fall. I think I tend to be a little non-traditional in what I like for a PN though. Heavier body and more fruit tends to drive my appreciation of Pinots.



Before I got this bucket and grapes, I was thinking that a Chilean Pinot would be exactly what you describe. But now that I'm making it and tasting it, it seems more reserved than what I expected. I'm sure at some point when I deem it ready you'll get a sample bottle, you'll just have to make the decision of whether I waited long enough for it to have aged properly before you open it.


----------



## Boatboy24

Racked all 4 last night and will pitch MLB tonight. They are all tasting kinda harsh right now. Expected, but after the way my wines were tasting early on last fall, I think the bar is pretty high. Still really impressed with those grapes from Lanza and looking forward to doing more.


----------



## ceeaton

Racked the Pinot Noir this morning, got 6 gallons + a 3 L jug. Smelled pretty darn good and had enough staining power for me to realize it's time to change my racking tube attached to the canes. Didn't have enough time to rehydrate the MLB so will do tonight.

Also need to rack the two Pinot Grigio buckets, down to a blurp every 30 seconds or so. Got the 6 gallon carboys resanitized so should be ready to go when I get home.


----------



## balassley

Do you guys happen to know if cold stabilization will work at 38 degrees Fahrenheit? Does it need to be 32 or below? I have 6 gallons going thru MLF, but I need to do something about the 1 gallon jug not going thru MLF. The pH is 3.2 and so I figured CS could get pH to 3.4, maybe wishful thinking? I purposely didn't put this 1 gallon thru MLF because I wanted to compare the two.


----------



## balassley

I forgot to mention. I'm asking about 38 degrees because the 1 gallon jug will fit in my fridge that goes down to 38.


----------



## Boatboy24

Yep, it'll work at that temp. My take longer though.


----------



## Boatboy24

Got the Enoferm Beta pitched this evening. First time using it.


----------



## Johnd

balassley said:


> Do you guys happen to know if cold stabilization will work at 38 degrees Fahrenheit? Does it need to be 32 or below? I have 6 gallons going thru MLF, but I need to do something about the 1 gallon jug not going thru MLF. The pH is 3.2 and so I figured CS could get pH to 3.4, maybe wishful thinking? I purposely didn't put this 1 gallon thru MLF because I wanted to compare the two.



Quite wishful thinking, CS on a wine with a Ph of 3.2 will only serve to lower the Ph, not raise it.

Here's an article of interest on the subject:

http://extension.psu.edu/food/enology/analytical-services/assessment-of-cold-stabilization


----------



## balassley

Johnd said:


> Quite wishful thinking, CS on a wine with a Ph of 3.2 will only serve to lower the Ph, not raise it.
> 
> Here's an article of interest on the subject:
> 
> http://extension.psu.edu/food/enology/analytical-services/assessment-of-cold-stabilization


Thanks for this. From the MoreWine guide:

"The inverse is equally correct: if your pH is low, then lowering your acids (with a cold stabilization, chemical adjustment, or MLF) will raise your PH"

I read the above and just assumed CS would raise the pH from 3.2


----------



## balassley

Why even mention CS as a method for raising pH when it only does so with a pH of 3.6-3.7 or above (assuming I read correctly)? Seems misleading.


----------



## Boatboy24

balassley said:


> Why even mention CS as a method for raising pH when it only does so with a pH of 3.6-3.7 or above (assuming I read correctly)? Seems misleading.



It can certainly be. The addition of potassium carbonate, combined with CS is an effective way to raise pH (lower acidity). 

https://morewinemaking.com/products/potassium-carbonate.html?site_id=5


----------



## Boatboy24

Checked on my babies this morning. They seem just fine, so I put on a little Don Ho and left them for the day. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlCiDEXuxxA[/ame]


----------



## JohnT

How appropriate!!! 

"Tiny bubbles, in my wine......."


----------



## Boatboy24

JohnT said:


> How appropriate!!!
> 
> "Tiny bubbles, in my wine......."



It's the Malolactic Fermentation Fight Song!


----------



## Johnd

balassley said:


> Why even mention CS as a method for raising pH when it only does so with a pH of 3.6-3.7 or above (assuming I read correctly)? Seems misleading.



If you just don't like wine diamonds in your wine, even if it's below Ph 3.6, then go ahead and do it, but do it at a temp that you don't plan for your wine to ever be below. IMHO, there is no need to CS at temps around freezing if your wine will never see those temps again, unless speed to bottling is somehow more important. If you intend to store and serve your wine at 55, then CS at 55 during bulk aging. Review the article again, more precipitation occurs at lower temps than higher, more precip affects your wines Ph more than lower precip. If you then desire to raise your Ph, as Jim said, use potassium carbonate.

Wine diamonds are not considered a wine flaw, but commercial producers, for various reasons, don't want them in their wines. Decant your wine through an aerator / strainer before serving, no big deal, I do that anyway.


----------



## ceeaton

Almost had some fun this morning. Rehydrated the MLB in a solution of water and Acti-ML. Have the 6 gallon carboy with the Pinot Noir pretty darn full, so I just added a "drip" of the mixture. You all know what happened next, that wine started releasing volumes of CO2 faster than I can reach for a beer when I get home from work. Just happened to have my wine thief and a 2 cup pyrex container close by and started thiefing my heart out. Lost about two thimbles worth of wine down the sides of the carboy. Removed another few cups before adding the rest of the mixture. 

The 4L container was much easier since I could put it in the sink easier. Both are bubbling contently at this point, so I think I have MLF liftoff. Took a sample before I added the MLB to do a Chromatography test and just started the nasty developer stage. Hoping it will fully wicked by bed time so I can dry it overnight.

Time to get off my aching butt and rack the Pinot Grigio buckets. Moved several ton skids of manuals around today to help our new fulfillment department next to our area, I'm too old for that kind of work, my body hurts.

Edit: I'm heartbroken, PG bucket #1 is 1.010 @ 64*F, looks like grapefruit juice, so I know the yeast is still in suspension. Didn't want to rack tonight (like it to get below 1.000) so I guess I'll go to bed...


----------



## balassley

ceeaton said:


> Almost had some fun this morning. Rehydrated the MLB in a solution of water and Acti-ML. Have the 6 gallon carboy with the Pinot Noir pretty darn full, so I just added a "drip" of the mixture. You all know what happened next, that wine started releasing volumes of CO2 faster than I can reach for a beer when I get home from work. Just happened to have my wine thief and a 2 cup pyrex container close by and started thiefing my heart out. Lost about two thimbles worth of wine down the sides of the carboy. Removed another few cups before adding the rest of the mixture.
> 
> The 4L container was much easier since I could put it in the sink easier. Both are bubbling contently at this point, so I think I have MLF liftoff. Took a sample before I added the MLB to do a Chromatography test and just started the nasty developer stage. Hoping it will fully wicked by bed time so I can dry it overnight.
> 
> Time to get off my aching butt and rack the Pinot Grigio buckets. Moved several ton skids of manuals around today to help our new fulfillment department next to our area, I'm too old for that kind of work, my body hurts.
> 
> Edit: I'm heartbroken, PG bucket #1 is 1.010 @ 64*F, looks like grapefruit juice, so I know the yeast is still in suspension. Didn't want to rack tonight (like it to get below 1.000) so I guess I'll go to bed...


Haha little pucker factor eh


----------



## balassley

Boatboy, you noted in another thread that you purchased Lafitte's 1+1 corks. Did they happen to mention how many years those corks are rated for?


----------



## sour_grapes

My "like" on your post above is for your not losing any significant amount of wine!


----------



## Boatboy24

balassley said:


> Boatboy, you noted in another thread that you purchased Lafitte's 1+1 corks. Did they happen to mention how many years those corks are rated for?



I don't know how many, but they are intended to go a while. There is a thread or two in the "Bottles Labels & Corks" section that might have that info. If not, a quick call to Lafitte should get you there. My experience was they are very responsive - even to the little guys like us. 

I'll probably need to make my second order later this year.


----------



## Boatboy24

Well, well, well! Did a chromo tonight and zip, zero, nada has happened in the way of MLF. That is at least a partial explanation for how harsh these wines are. I'm over two months in and no SO2 so far. I'm topped up. Gonna re-test pH in a day or two and order some more MLB I guess. It's almost time for these to go into the barrel rotation, so I guess I'll hope to get MLF completed in the barrel. Frustrating.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, well, well! Did a chromo tonight and zip, zero, nada has happened in the way of MLF. That is at least a partial explanation for how harsh these wines are. I'm over two months in and no SO2 so far. I'm topped up. Gonna re-test pH in a day or two and order some more MLB I guess. It's almost time for these to go into the barrel rotation, so I guess I'll hope to get MLF completed in the barrel. Frustrating.



I'm in the same boat, boatboy. You gonna add any SO2? My zin has been 4 months, no so2, was thinking about hitting it with 25ppm, half the tolerance of vp41. Guess I'll have to take a barrel out of the wine room to try it in the barrel.


----------



## Boatboy24

I was thinking about 1/8 tsp of SO2. I'll wait on that decision until I've confirmed pH. Pre-fermentation, the pH on all 4 was between 3.44 and 3.7. I used Enoferm Beta the first time around because it was all I could get my hands on. I'll be going back to VP41 the second time around.


----------



## Johnd

My Zin is 3.49, pitched vp41 on 4/20, rehydrated with ActiML, OptiMalo in the wine. Hit it again with the same regimen a month ago when I MLF'd the Chileans. When I get back from the beach in 10 days, I'm going to run a chromo on the Zin, Chilean Cab and Malbec, and the Cab/Malbec blend. I'll decide what to do with the zin when I see the results, little early yet on the Chileans.


----------



## ceeaton

Maybe it's a bad MLF year or something. Checked mine two weeks ago and my Pinot Noir has budged a little, but not much. I noticed a white film forming on my 4L container (have a 6 gallon carboy + 4L bottle) two weeks ago and immediately added Kmeta to that. I was lax on my stirring of the 6 gallon carboy, so I've tried to be more intentional as of late. Will check again this weekend and see if there is any movement. There has been slight airlock activity, so we'll see. Used CH35 and originally had a pH of 3.69, haven't tested lately, guess I best do that. I liked what the CH35 did with my Chardonel and Dornfelder last fall, so I thought I'd try it out on another red (more for whites than reds, but acceptable results can be had on reds according to the literature on it).

Edit: pH is now 3.33 - calibrated twice, have new solution that I should probably break out this weekend. The 3.69 was taken before pitching yeast.
Double Edit: Mystery solved. I added 22g of tartaric acid after the 3.69 reading before pitching the yeast and never checked again. I think I was aiming for 3.4, so not too bad of an overshoot.


----------



## Boatboy24

Hmmm. Sounds like a lot of us are struggling with the Malo this spring/summer. Interesting. I'll be ordering the VP41 shortly and will pitch next week. Fingers crossed.


----------



## balassley

Same. Used VP41, which started strong, but never finished. I bought more VP41 and nutrients, added in and saw no activity (tiny bubbles) and another test after another 2 weeks confirmed no change. I said screw it and added SO2 last week.


----------



## Boatboy24

So far (knock on wood), I've had good luck with VP41. Unfortunately couldn't get it this spring.


----------



## Johnd

balassley said:


> Same. Used VP41, which started strong, but never finished. I bought more VP41 and nutrients, added in and saw no activity (tiny bubbles) and another test after another 2 weeks confirmed no change. I said screw it and added SO2 last week.



I'm getting close to calling it on my Zin, little activity in the beginning with some slight progress on the chromo. If it's not changed when I check next weekend, it's gonna get SO2 and go into the barrel in the wine room.


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> I was thinking about 1/8 tsp of SO2. I'll wait on that decision until I've confirmed pH. Pre-fermentation, the pH on all 4 was between 3.44 and 3.7. I used Enoferm Beta the first time around because it was all I could get my hands on. I'll be going back to VP41 the second time around.



How does adding 1/8 tsp affect the mlf? And what processes are needed after adding it?


----------



## Johnd

Tnuscan said:


> How does adding 1/8 tsp affect the mlf? And what processes are needed after adding it?



It depends upon the tolerance of the strain. I'm using VP41 which has a reported SO2 tolerance of up to 50 PPM. Additions of KMS that stay below this threshold shouldn't affect the performance of the bacteria. The process for me would be to thief out a little wine, add the proper amount of KMS to keep the full volume PPM below 50, and simply stir the solution back into the wine. I suspect that the higher the SO2 concentration, the more stress on the bacteria, so I added none at all when initially starting MLF and haven't added any at all to date.


----------



## sdelli

I bought juice this year... Do not trust their grapes... Had trouble as well... Over 3 months and called it quits at almost done.... Doing cold stabilize to get some of that acid out....


----------



## Tnuscan

sdelli said:


> I bought juice this year... Do not trust their grapes... Had trouble as well... Over 3 months and called it quits at almost done.... Doing cold stabilize to get some of that acid out....




This confuses me a little.

Whose grapes? Chilean grapes in general, M&M in Hartford, CT., or Harford in MD.?


----------



## Tnuscan

What does everyone feel is the reason behind this?

It seems several people from different areas are having this same issue..?


----------



## sdelli

Tnuscan said:


> This confuses me a little.
> 
> 
> 
> Whose grapes? Chilean grapes in general, M&M in Hartford, CT., or Harford in MD.?




Chilean grapes in general! I get the grapes and juice from top suppliers so it is not them.... It is the product. Read across this forum... You have a great chance of problems. Ya.... Someone will respond to this and say mine are fine. That does not count.... I don't like the odds!


----------



## sdelli

I have gotten grapes from M&M... I just got juice this year from Youngstown, Ohio...


----------



## Tnuscan

sdelli said:


> Chilean grapes in general! I get the grapes and juice from top suppliers so it is not them.... It is the product. Read across this forum... You have a great chance of problems. Ya.... Someone will respond to this and say mine are fine. That does not count.... I don't like the odds!



Oh...ok... I think I'm understanding..?

Even though these grapes are hours apart on arrival time ( different States), some pails or lugs might be from a region in Chile that were picked too early or climate affected so the acid levels or ripeness factors are out of balance while some from other areas will be perfect(or more so). 

But the Majority of the time most of the grapes seem to be "out of balance" and a challenge to get where they need to be.

Is this correct?


----------



## Tnuscan

ceeaton said:


> Now that I got some new test solution for the TA, here's what I got:
> 
> Pinot Noir: pH 3.69, TA 3.5g/L, SG 1.085
> Pinot Grigio #1: pH 3.55, TA 4.2 g/L, SG 1.083
> Pinot Grigio #2: pH 3.55, TA 4.3 g/L, SG 1.083
> 
> Plan on adjusting acids on all (1/2 way only, then retest in a day or so), and pitching RC 212 on the Pinot Noir, and QA23 on one of the Pinot Grigio buckets and D47 on the other.
> 
> Added the normal Booster Blanc, FT Blanc Soft to the whites and Lallazyme EX to the grapes and Opti-red and FT Rouge to the Red.
> 
> Will rehydrate yeasts in Go Ferm and eventually add two doses of Fermaid O to everything as it progresses through fermentation.



These #'s wouldn't make for a bad, or slowed, MLF,,, would they?

@boatboy24 didn't post his TA but his pH looked to be good for MLF also.

These long unfinished MLFs have me confused.


----------



## ceeaton

I never added a post that I had adjusted the pH/TA of the Pinot Noir after I posted those numbers by adding Tartaric acid (like 22 grams worth), then pitching the yeast. My pH is 3.33 now, which is still in spec for CH 35 (pH down to 3.0, 50 ppm SO2, 14% alcohol).


----------



## sdelli

Sounds pretty close to what I believe as well.


----------



## ceeaton

Picture to come when it gets fully dried. Watching my latest chromography develop, looks like the 6 gallon carboy of my PN that I've been stirring every three days for the past few weeks is showing progress. Yippy!

Edit: PN1 column is the 6 gallon carboy that I've been stirring every three days. PN2 is a 3 or 4L jug that I added kmeta too because of growth on top, so I suppressed the MLB. PN2 looked very light/oxidized when I took the samples, so it may become garden fodder. Will let it go a few more weeks since the PN1 container tastes good and doesn't appear to be growing anything out of the ordinary.


----------



## Boatboy24

Got the VP41 pitched yesterday. All 4 wines are showing lots of tiny bubbles. Fingers are crossed. Really need to take the edge off these wines.


----------



## Boatboy24

Update: ran chromatography last week to check on things. All 4 look like the 'PN2' test in Craig's test above. Think I'm going to go ahead and sulfite these and hope for the best. 4 months in and no sulfite - makes me very nervous. Need to recheck pH and if it seems appropriate, I'll give them the bicarbonate/cold stabilization treatment over the winter.


----------



## cmason1957

Boatboy24 said:


> Update: ran chromatography last week to check on things. All 4 look like the 'PN2' test in Craig's test above. Think I'm going to go ahead and sulfite these and hope for the best. 4 months in and no sulfite - makes me very nervous. Need to recheck pH and if it seems appropriate, I'll give them the bicarbonate/cold stabilization treatment over the winter.




If they look like the "PN2" sample in the above picture, I am not sure I would add sulphites at this point. The big problem with chromotography is you can't infer amount of malic left from the spot size, just that there is some. I generally use the color strips to decide I am below 40 ppm of malic before I sulphite.


----------



## ceeaton

cmason1957 said:


> If they look like the "PN2" sample in the above picture, I am not sure I would add sulphites at this point. The big problem with chromotography is you can't infer amount of malic left from the spot size, just that there is some. I generally use the color strips to decide I am below 40 ppm of malic before I sulphite.



Craig, the PN2 shows my Pinot Noir in a gallon container that I stopped MLF on because of a suspicious substance at the top of the container. PN1 is the one that pretty much completed. Jim has had issues with his wines from this Spring to the point he has pitched MLB again in hopes of getting MLF to complete. At this point I think he's throwing in the towel since he hasn't added Kmeta since he got the grapes in late April/early May. He's going to try other methods this winter to reduce the acids in his wine since the MLB didn't cooperate.


----------



## cmason1957

ceeaton said:


> Craig, the PN2 shows my Pinot Noir in a gallon container that I stopped MLF on because of a suspicious substance at the top of the container. PN1 is the one that pretty much completed. Jim has had issues with his wines from this Spring to the point he has pitched MLB again in hopes of getting MLF to complete. At this point I think he's throwing in the towel since he hasn't added Kmeta since he got the grapes in late April/early May. He's going to try other methods this winter to reduce the acids in his wine since the MLB didn't cooperate.



Oh yeah, I forgot that several folks had said they had issues with MLF this spring. I guess I have been lucky and MLF has always taken right off for me. We'll except for one Merlot and I have heard that happens sometimes. I ended up adding some other settings that had just finished MLF to get it to start that time.


----------



## Boatboy24

Yep. Not one of the 4 batches I did has successfully gone through MLF. I've pitched both Enoferm Beta and VP41. I'm over 4 months now and no sulfite. :<


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep. Not one of the 4 batches I did has successfully gone through MLF. I've pitched both Enoferm Beta and VP41. I'm over 4 months now and no sulfite. :<



Join the club, four going now too, inoculated twice, one nearing completion. All have been lightly sulfited, except the one that was progressing. I chickened out after four months of no sulfite.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tested all 4 tonight. 

Cab: 3.27
Syrah: 3.53
Carmenere: 3.42
Merlot: 3.26

All taste terribly acidic. I mean, just bad. This is not an 'oh, decent wine, but too much bite' kind of a taste. It is an 'oh this is crap and I can't handle another taste', kind of taste. 

All are technically within pH and alcohol range for the two MLB I've pitched, but no progress showing on chromatography. It's just weird. All 4 were tasting pretty darn good during primary. I don't know what's happened or why MLF won't work.


----------



## Johnd

My pH's are 3.36, 3.39, 3.45, and 3.49, 24.5 was my highest starting Brix, used ActiML to rehydrate and OptiML to feed. I don't have the nasty taste, but no reasonable MLF progress. Can't figure it out, everything is right.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Tested all 4 tonight.
> 
> Cab: 3.27
> Syrah: 3.53
> Carmenere: 3.42
> Merlot: 3.26
> 
> All taste terribly acidic. I mean, just bad. This is not an 'oh, decent wine, but too much bite' kind of a taste. It is an 'oh this is crap and I can't handle another taste', kind of taste.
> 
> All are technically within pH and alcohol range for the two MLB I've pitched, but no progress showing on chromatography. It's just weird. All 4 were tasting pretty darn good during primary. I don't know what's happened or why MLF won't work.


Really strange. 

I think I know the answer to this, but did you follow your normal procedure and press, wait 24 hrs, rack off gross lees, then pitch MLB? Also, did they all finish dry (below 1.000)?

Been reading stuff here and there, just can't find anything that fits what you've had happen. Wonder if there is a lab you can send it to where they'd test it (like say the Syrah) and tell you why MLF might not take hold. Maybe @grapeman would have an idea.

I know a few years back, if I remember correctly, White Labs rolled out an MLB that in fact was infected with other bacteria. I know you didn't use that, but maybe it was a bad MLB year.


----------



## cmason1957

I wonder if the grapes got some extra sulfide added to them or something like that. I also think with the incomplete Mlf I would add lysozome or some other product to keep the Mlf from restating after bottling.


----------



## ceeaton

cmason1957 said:


> I wonder if the grapes got some extra sulfide added to them or something like that. I also think with the incomplete Mlf I would add lysozome or some other product to keep the Mlf from restating after bottling.



I know the grapes I got came with "sulfite" pads surrounding the grapes inside the lug. Maybe this year that had a new supplier and they were stronger than usual?? I think it is a pretty normal way for them to ship them, especially since they take so long in transit. Who knows, it's still a mystery.


----------



## Johnd

I talked with my sales guy about how they are shipped from Chile back when I ordered. He indicated that they're packed in boxes, in plastic bags filled with SO2 gas, in a refrigerated container with sulfites inside. Maybe the pads in the bags contain the sulfite? Can they absorb it through the skins? The MoreWine MLF literature indicates that bound so2 can inhibit MLF as well as free so2. It's a conundrum.


----------



## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> I talked with my sales guy about how they are shipped from Chile back when I ordered. He indicated that they're packed in boxes, in plastic bags filled with SO2 gas, in a refrigerated container with sulfites inside. Maybe the pads in the bags contain the sulfite? Can they absorb it through the skins? The MoreWine MLF literature indicates that bound so2 can inhibit MLF as well as free so2. It's a conundrum.



The pads that were in mine (and hence in Boatboy Jim's) definitely let you know they contained sulfites. Probably have to do that since some people are highly allergic to them.


----------



## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> The pads that were in mine (and hence in Boatboy Jim's) definitely let you know they contained sulfites. Probably have to do that since some people are highly allergic to them.



You guys saw them, I'm sure mine had them too, before crushing, destemming and freezing, which was to be conducted sulfite free for my order. Free so2 dissipates, does bound so2? 

Strange thing is I have MLF progress on my cab/Malbec blend, but not on the cab, and not on the Malbec........


----------



## Boatboy24

What really has me confused is that these were tasting fine - good actually - in primary.

@ceeaton: standard procedures followed, yes. They were all 'pressed' (remember, these were juice buckets with 1 or 2 lugs added - used paint strainer bags and just squeezed) between 1.000 and 1.010 SG. Racked the next day and pitched CH16.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> What really has me confused is that these were tasting fine - good actually - in primary.
> 
> @ceeaton: standard procedures followed, yes. They were all 'pressed' (remember, these were juice buckets with 1 or 2 lugs added - used paint strainer bags and just squeezed) between 1.000 and 1.010 SG. Racked the next day and pitched CH16.



Well, they could of over sulfited the buckets, but then you'd think the yeast you pitched would have had issues. Still makes no sense. Hope some day you figure it out and explain it to us so we can avoid the issue in the future.


----------



## Boatboy24

Update: took the Cab out of the barrel today and it measured 3.22! I need to go back and get my original readings, but as I recall, the numbers were almost spot on prior to fermentation. Regardless, I'm going to give this one the potassium carbonate treatment and put it in the garage while we still have some cool-ish weather (though its going to be in the upper 60's today). I need to re-measure the other 3 as well. The Carmenere did eventually finish MLF, so I'm interested to see where that one is on the acid scale. In the meantime, I'm hesitant to put anything else into that barrel, just in case there is some bug causing this. So I mixed up a Citric/KMeta solution and filled it up with good old water. 

In the meantime, anyone know of potential triggers to make pH drop?


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> Update: took the Cab out of the barrel today and it measured 3.22! I need to go back and get my original readings, but as I recall, the numbers were almost spot on prior to fermentation. Regardless, I'm going to give this one the potassium carbonate treatment and put it in the garage while we still have some cool-ish weather (though its going to be in the upper 60's today). I need to re-measure the other 3 as well. The Carmenere did eventually finish MLF, so I'm interested to see where that one is on the acid scale. In the meantime, I'm hesitant to put anything else into that barrel, just in case there is some bug causing this. So I mixed up a Citric/KMeta solution and filled it up with good old water.
> 
> In the meantime, anyone know of potential triggers to make pH drop?



This post made me dig through my notes, and thinking back, I remember several having trouble with mlfs' finishing. Mine wine is Chambourcin and I done mlf in the carboys, they finished pretty well on time.

I have been trying to figure out why I started out with a pH of 3.2, but after racking from barrel to age in carboy I discovered all my pHs had fallen to the starting 3.2 pH @ crush. I have on carboy that is due to go into the barrel now. So I ran a pH and a TA on it and it's @ 3.50 pH and 6.9g/L TA.

All of these carboys should be very close to these numbers, as I used 3 dirrerent yeast strains. MT, BM 4x4 and RC 212,, mlb in all three were VP 41.

All 3 that came from the barrel fell back to the starting pH of 3.2 . This surely can't be a coincidence, if three of mine and yours have done the same. This has confused me and made me have to use K-Bicarb, when I shoud of just had to use tartaric to dial in. This has been making me nuts trying to figure this drop out.

Would it be safe to asume the barrels could/can be making these adverse movements, if so why? (Acids from the oak barrel???) Mine is the Vadai , Hungarian Medium toast. {I not implying the barrels are bad, but (maybe) causing an acidic reaction. 

Instead of running the carboy I was planning to run, I will pull a 2nd run batch that has increased numbers, to see if it pulls it down. I will transfer them today and keep you posted with the weekly readings.


----------



## Johnd

@tnuscan FWIW, my Koch Cabernet Sauvignon from this fall has been barreled for several months. The pH was a tad high when it was time to load up the barrel so it was adjusted downward from 3.77 to 3.67 before going into the barrel. When I ran numbers on all my stuff yesterday, it was still at 3.67, carboy Koch wine still at 3.77. Barrel is a Vadai, Hungarian oak, medium toast.


----------



## Tnuscan

Johnd said:


> @tnuscan FWIW, my Koch Cabernet Sauvignon from this fall has been barreled for several months. The pH was a tad high when it was time to load up the barrel so it was adjusted downward from 3.77 to 3.67 before going into the barrel. When I ran numbers on all my stuff yesterday, it was still at 3.67, carboy Koch wine still at 3.77. Barrel is a Vadai, Hungarian oak, medium toast.



Thanks Johnd, I was probably grabbing at straws, I can't figure it out, some kind of chemical reaction, maybe.


----------



## Johnd

Tnuscan said:


> Thanks Johnd, I was probably grabbing at straws, I can't figure it out, some kind of chemical reaction, maybe.



When you think you see a pattern, you should explore it, don't sweat it. I'd think if Hungarian Med toast barrels were acidifying wines, we'd figure out how to use it to our advantage. 

Other than pH/TA changes through AF / MLF and CS, we shouldn't be seeing drastic changes in our wines pH/TA that we don't initiate. When one of those isn't responsible, I first suspect my chemicals, equipment, or process; is / was my meter clean and calibrated?; are / were my chems fresh?; did I make some goofy mistake reading something wrong?, did I add tartaric acid instead of sulfite?, were acid additions well mixed?, did I degas samples properly?, did I let my wine get cool and get a little CS action by mistake?, that sorta stuff. Even worse, is some nasty critter feeding on my acid? But you should be able to smell and taste that....


----------



## Tnuscan

Me tinks me has wine gremlins.


----------



## Boatboy24

OK, the Cab started out @ 3.44. Never did get MLF complete on it. Now @ 3.22. Maybe if MLF did ever take off, I'd be at 3.55-3.65 about now. But no such luck. Still not sure why the MLF never took off, though at 3.22 pH, that could be it. As I mentioned, I'll give it the K-bicarb treatment and go from there. All 4 wines ranged from a little to a lot low last time I tested. Will remeasure the rest and proceed based on those results.


----------



## Tnuscan

I would bet either sulfite overage or something else came in on the order as it was being shipped.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> I would bet either sulfite overage or something else came in on the order as it was being shipped.



Gotta be. Although most of the MLB's show a pH tolerance of about 3.2 or 3.4 - that could be it as well. 

What I don't know (as has been discussed) is if the stated SO2 tolerance is for FREE SO2 or TOTAL SO2.


----------



## Tnuscan

I'm on it,,, up,up and away.


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> Gotta be. Although most of the MLB's show a pH tolerance of about 3.2 or 3.4 - that could be it as well.
> 
> What I don't know (as has been discussed) is if the stated SO2 tolerance is for FREE SO2 or TOTAL SO2.




@Boatboy24
The answer is Both affects or inhibits the MLB. 

EDIT: Free and bound the Total SO2.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> @Boatboy24
> The answer is Free SO2 affects or inhibits the MLB. Answer was given from Cornell University.



Well shucks. There goes that theory.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Well shucks. There goes that theory.



I posted this once, but it didn't show up in the thread, here goes again.......... A quote below from the Morewine MLF Manual online:
"D) SO2:
Most winemakers know that a high “free” SO2 level can inhibit
ML bacteria, and that if you want to carry out an MLF then
you usually don’t sulfite the wine until after the fermentation
has completed. However, it is crucial to realize that “bound”
SO2 also has a negative affect on the bacteria. This is because
while “bound” SO2 is 5 to 10 times less active than “free” SO2,
at high enough levels it too can hinder bacterial growth. So, if
you want to do an MLF on a particular wine not only do you
need to be aware of how much “free” SO2 is in the wine, you
also need to keep tabs on the portion that is “bound” as well.
These two portions combined are referred to as “total” SO2
and the following SO2 levels are recommended by Lallemand
Malolactic Fermentation
A MoreManual !™ by Shea A.J. Comfort
© Copyright 2011 MoreFlavor! Inc.
as being favourable MLF conditions: 0–10ppm “free”, and 0–30ppm “total”.
Note that in general, if you crush and add a single 50ppm “total” SO2 addition up front, by the time the fermentation is over you will usually have around 20–25ppm as “total” and 0–10ppm as “free”. In other words, you should be well within the recommended ranges. (Keep in mind, however, that this amount will vary with different must compositions and fermentation temperatures)."

I inquired about how the Chileans were shipped and was told that they were sprayed with an so2 solution, bagged with so2 gas, in a refrigerated container infused with so2.


----------



## Tnuscan

A Chemist truly has the upper hand at winemaking.


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> Gotta be. Although most of the MLB's show a pH tolerance of about 3.2 or 3.4 - that could be it as well.
> 
> What I don't know (as has been discussed) is if the stated SO2 tolerance is for FREE SO2 or TOTAL SO2.



@Boatboy24 Ok, time for me to eat crow. I just spoke with another person that stated that * TOTAL SO2*(free and bound)* Did affect stun/kill MLB.* And that this over exposure was common on fruits shipped into the US from that area/distance. So if you used only the required amount then the TOTAL SO2 would have been over the Threshold of the MLB to survive. 

As Johnd's post stated it is *TOTAL SO2*. Sorry for the wrong information,_ I was just misinformed by a professional._  Goes to show we all make mistakes. lol. 

They also stated that One could use the Ripper method for TOTAL SO2 however they were not 100% accurate.

So I think you've found your culprit. [Total SO2]


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> @Boatboy24 Ok, time for me to eat crow. I just spoke with another person that stated that * TOTAL SO2*(free and bound)* Did affect stun/kill MLB.* And that this over exposure was common on fruits shipped into the US from that area/distance. So if you used only the required amount then the TOTAL SO2 would have been over the Threshold of the MLB to survive.
> 
> As Johnd's post stated it is *TOTAL SO2*. Sorry for the wrong information,_ I was just misinformed by a professional._  Goes to show we all make mistakes. lol.
> 
> They also stated that One could use the Ripper method for TOTAL SO2 however they were not 100% accurate.
> 
> So I think you've found your culprit. [Total SO2]



Thanks!! Still trying to figure out why the pH dropped, but this likely explains the lack of MLF. If I could nail down why it tastes like overly acidic, dirty dishwater, I'll be on to something.


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> Thanks!! Still trying to figure out why the pH dropped, but this likely explains the lack of MLF. If I could nail down why it tastes like overly acidic, dirty dishwater, I'll be on to something.



Did you notice this dishwater taste, before mlb was added, or after?


----------



## Tnuscan

@Boatboy24 after reading I seen it was after mlb was added.

I read you might try yeast hulls @ 1g/L, in the wine, see if it removes the smell.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> @Boatboy24 after reading I seen it was after mlb was added.
> 
> I read you might try yeast hulls @ 1g/L, in the wine, see if it removes the smell.



Thanks. Gonna see what the K-Bicarb does. In the case of my 2015 Cab, which also became acidic on me, the K-Bicarb removed the acidity and brought some fruit forward. I'm hoping for a similar result. If it smells bad, I'll try hulls.


----------



## Tnuscan

Sorry, I meant taste.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> Sorry, I meant taste.



Ah, thanks Dave. Either way. If it is still bad, I'll try the hulls. It'll be dumped otherwise. So if I can experiment and make it somewhat respectable, it'll be worth it.


----------



## Tnuscan

Wish you the best of luck!


----------



## Tnuscan

Johnd said:


> When you think you see a pattern, you should explore it, don't sweat it. I'd think if Hungarian Med toast barrels were acidifying wines, we'd figure out how to use it to our advantage.
> 
> Other than pH/TA changes through AF / MLF and CS, we shouldn't be seeing drastic changes in our wines pH/TA that we don't initiate. When one of those isn't responsible, I first suspect my chemicals, equipment, or process; is / was my meter clean and calibrated?; are / were my chems fresh?; did I make some goofy mistake reading something wrong?, did I add tartaric acid instead of sulfite?, were acid additions well mixed?, did I degas samples properly?, did I let my wine get cool and get a little CS action by mistake?, that sorta stuff. Even worse, is some nasty critter feeding on my acid? But you should be able to smell and taste that....



@Johnd My wine was moved from 72 to 59, a 13 degree difference. I have noticed some thin crystals on the bottom of the carboys, in both the Chambourcin and the Cynthiana. That shouldn't make that big of a pH drop. The Chambourcin and the Cynthiana pH's were real close at crush. The Cynthiana haven't gone into the barrel and they are @ 4.01 pH. I find this to be really odd, any way, I will keep whackin' away at them. Oh, and @Boatboy24 That's what happens when you run with scissors.


----------



## Tnuscan

@Boatboy24 Which of your Chilean wines turned out ok?


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> @Boatboy24 Which of your Chilean wines turned out ok?



So far, none. 

The Carmenere did finish MLF, though it has the same, nasty, sour taste as the others. I'll be pH testing the other 3 this weekend, and quite possibly giving all the K-bicarb treatment and moving them to the garage (I did the Cab on Wed night). Unfortunately, we have highs in the 60's for the next several days. We will have some cool nights though. So I'll try to get the temps down, then wrap the carboys in some moving blankets to stabilize temps a tad.


----------



## geek

Jim, at this point are you going by the pH alone and don't care about the TA? Just curiosity.


----------



## AZMDTed

Boatboy24 said:


> So far, none.
> 
> The Carmenere did finish MLF, though it has the same, nasty, sour taste as the others. I'll be pH testing the other 3 this weekend, and quite possibly giving all the K-bicarb treatment and moving them to the garage (I did the Cab on Wed night). Unfortunately, we have highs in the 60's for the next several days. We will have some cool nights though. So I'll try to get the temps down, then wrap the carboys in some moving blankets to stabilize temps a tad.



This isn't giving me any confidence in buying Chilean juice buckets or grapes this spring.


----------



## Johnd

AZMDTed said:


> This isn't giving me any confidence in buying Chilean juice buckets or grapes this spring.



FWIW, I've had similar MLF problems with all three of my Chilean wines. They taste OK, but are still acidic and tart, none completed MLF after three separate MLB inoculations. This is only my opinion, but the sulfiting practices of getting fresh grapes back to the states, may increase the SO2 in the product, and difficulty in completing MLF. Coupled with the early picking/ high TA / low pH, my wines struggled. 

Conversely, I purchased Grapemasters must from Spain, crushed, destemmed, and frozen in Spain, and then shipped frozen. These grapes, like the unsulfited frozen musts I've done from the States, rolled right through MLF and stand head and shoulders above the Chileans. 

I'll be sticking with grapes that are processed and shipped frozen, as opposed to those that are sulfited and shipped whole before processing.


----------



## AZMDTed

Thanks John, good input.


----------



## ceeaton

AZMDTed said:


> This isn't giving me any confidence in buying Chilean juice buckets or grapes this spring.



Ted, I've never had issues with a Chilean batch, whether a white juice bucket or a red bucket with added lugs of grapes. At one point I had issues getting MLF to complete, but that was due to "operator error" since I wasn't mixing up the carboy on a regular basis. Once I did, MLF completed pretty quickly. At this point (not including my Fall batches from California), my Chilean batches have produced my best wine, in my humble opinion. Just had a bottle of Merlot/Cab Sauv/Malbec (April 2015) from my wine sanctuary, and it was especially tasty (I'll bring a bottle down when we eventually meet up). So don't let others' issues keep you from trying. Buckets from Harford are very affordable, so if they don't work you only lost the price of a cheapy kit (most buckets are around $56 or less for six gallons).


----------



## AZMDTed

Thanks Craig. Interesting. Maybe this spring I will start with baby steps. Get a couple lugs of grapes, squeeze and focus on the skins as an addition to my kits. After I get my hands dirty I can judge better for the fall harvest and what I may want to do with US grapes and juices. I'm looking forward to your visit along with whoever else is available to come by.


----------



## Boatboy24

geek said:


> Jim, at this point are you going by the pH alone and don't care about the TA? Just curiosity.



pH and taste. Neither are good.


----------



## Tnuscan

Makes me wish testing for Total SO2 were both cheaper and more accurate.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ted, don't lose faith on my account. I haven't nailed this down yet, and for all I know, it could be operator error. I have two other batches of Chilean reds that are decent, at a minimum.


----------



## AZMDTed

Boatboy24 said:


> Ted, don't lose faith on my account. I haven't nailed this down yet, and for all I know, it could be operator error. I have two other batches of Chilean reds that are decent, at a minimum.



No worries, it's not just this. It's a combination of this and my available time, space, and equipment, etc. I will get there, baby steps first though I think is best for me now. I'd enjoy playing with fresh and frozen skins and maybe some fresh crushed juice from them as a substitute for part of the water addition in kits.


----------



## Tnuscan

@Johnd , @ceeaton , and any others that done the 2016 Chilean pails_ with added grapes_, have any primary ferm. issues like H2S or sluggish/stressed ferments?


----------



## Boatboy24

@Tnuscan: had a brief issue w/ H2S early on, but a dose of nutrient took care of it pretty quickly. Other than that, and some green pepper notes in the Syrah (which is still there), the wines were quite good.


----------



## Johnd

Tnuscan said:


> @Johnd , @ceeaton , and any others that done the 2016 Chilean pails_ with added grapes_, have any primary ferm. issues like H2S or sluggish/stressed ferments?



I haven't experienced any fermentation problems either, other than incomplete MLF, and that's been beat to death. I do feel like the Chilean grapes were picked a tad early, lowish BRIX, highish acid content, the same "green" taste that Jim references. I saw more green seeds than I would have liked. All in all, despite not completing MLF, my wines aren't bad. I tasted the Cab Sav and Malbec this weekend which are both halfway through barrel time, decently fruity, still a little astringent and green, but progressing just fine. I racked the 75/25 Cab/Malbec 3 gallon carboy and added sulfite and oak cubes, it also tastes pretty decent, no off flavors, the two one gallon Malbecs are fine too.

My (attempted) impartial assessment of my most recent grape wine batches, if you are interested, is that the Spring '16 Chilean wines are OK. The Fall '16 batches I did from Lanza (Cab Clone 169, Koch Cab, Petite Syrah, Merlot) and the Spanish must (Tempranillo and Merlot) are already better despite being younger.


----------



## Tnuscan

Johnd said:


> I haven't experienced any fermentation problems either, other than incomplete MLF, and that's been beat to death. I do feel like the Chilean grapes were picked a tad early, lowish BRIX, highish acid content, the same "green" taste that Jim references. I saw more green seeds than I would have liked. All in all, despite not completing MLF, my wines aren't bad. I tasted the Cab Sav and Malbec this weekend which are both halfway through barrel time, decently fruity, still a little astringent and green, but progressing just fine. I racked the 75/25 Cab/Malbec 3 gallon carboy and added sulfite and oak cubes, it also tastes pretty decent, no off flavors, the two one gallon Malbecs are fine too.
> 
> My (attempted) impartial assessment of my most recent grape wine batches, if you are interested, is that the Spring '16 Chilean wines are OK. The Fall '16 batches I did from Lanza (Cab Clone 169, Koch Cab, Petite Syrah, Merlot) and the Spanish must (Tempranillo and Merlot) are already better despite being younger.



Yes always interested in information on wines, can't get enough of it. Just wish I could retain it though, wouldn't photographic memory be a blessing.

I had felt they were early, I can't rememer hearing the seeds weren't ripe, that helps knowing that. I propably think too much on a lot of this stuff, I just really became interested in Jims thread.

I am satisified that this these was picked a little early, and received a little too much SO2. And like I said earlier, it would be nice to be able to check the total SO2, with something accurate and more affordable.

Thanks again!


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> Yes always interested in information on wines, can't get enough of it. Just wish I could retain it though, wouldn't photographic memory be a blessing.
> 
> I had felt they were early, I can't rememer hearing the seeds weren't ripe, that helps knowing that. I propably think too much on a lot of this stuff, I just really became interested in Jims thread.
> 
> I am satisified that this these was picked a little early, and received a little too much SO2. And like I said earlier, it would be nice to be able to check the total SO2, with something accurate and more affordable.
> 
> Thanks again!



I've only checked the free SO2 on mine, but will check total at some point. A little more involved, but with the Vinmetrica, not difficult.


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> I've only checked the free SO2 on mine, but will check total at some point. A little more involved, but with the Vinmetrica, not difficult.



Didn't realize the vinmetrica could also give the total. I'm happy now, I already have one of those.


----------



## ceeaton

Tnuscan said:


> @Johnd , @ceeaton , and any others that done the 2016 Chilean pails_ with added grapes_, have any primary ferm. issues like H2S or sluggish/stressed ferments?



I used RC-212 on my Pinot Noir bucket with added grapes lasat Spring. In an earlier post I noted that I did get a sulfury whiff at one point but added Fermaid O and it subsided. That seems pretty standard when using RC-212. If I remember correctly, at last taste it was pretty good, though I don't think I've sampled since Christmas.


----------



## Tnuscan

ceeaton said:


> I used RC-212 on my Pinot Noir bucket with added grapes lasat Spring. In an earlier post I noted that I did get a sulfury whiff at one point but added Fermaid O and it subsided. That seems pretty standard when using RC-212. If I remember correctly, at last taste it was pretty good, though I don't think I've sampled since Christmas.



Sorry Craig I saw that right after I had posted. Thanks.


----------



## ceeaton

Tnuscan said:


> Sorry Craig I saw that right after I had posted. Thanks.



No need to be sorry. It is good for me to look back over those older posts as my memory isn't as good as it used to be. Funny (or not so funny) how time can alter memories.


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> Funny (or not so funny) how time can alter memories.



Or eliminate them completely! I'd forgotten about the stink bomb we came home to that one day.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Or eliminate them completely! I'd forgotten about the stink bomb we came home to that one day.



The smell of cooked eggs in the morning are wonderful except when you didn't cook any for breakfast.


----------



## Tnuscan

@Boatboy24 After more thought I would give Noblesse a go, this may be the route to reviving these wines. You may know this already,... just thought I would throw it out there.

http://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/Delteil_Noblesse_guidelines_dec_2010.pdf

Stressbaby had posted this a while back on another thread,(?), and I came across it again while reading up on acids and odors.


----------



## Boatboy24

Thanks Dave. Will look more into that. 

Sadly, since adding K-carbonate and moving things to the garage, daily highs have been in the 60's and 70's.


----------



## Tnuscan

I've seen 'Jane' Japanese Magnolia trees fully bloomed and some mowing yards here in Middle Tennessee.

In February,,, whats up with this????


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> I've seen 'Jane' Japanese Magnolia trees fully bloomed and some mowing yards here in Middle Tennessee.
> 
> In Feburary,,, whats up with this????



It's crazy. My car should be covered in snow. Instead, it's covered in pollen.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> It's crazy. My car should be covered in snow. Instead, it's covered in pollen.



I believe, from what I heard, your desire for a snow covered car is supposed to happen next week (at least up our way).


Edit: Just checked the forecast, it has changed a bit, no snow on my 10 day radar.


----------



## Boatboy24

Looks like lows in the 30's and 40's starting next week. Should be OK. Cold garage at night, then wrap in blankets during the day.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> It's crazy. My car should be covered in snow. Instead, it's covered in pollen.



I blame this latest snow on you. Supposed to be nice and cold for a few more days, hopefully that helps with your CS.


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> I blame this latest snow on you. Supposed to be nice and cold for a few more days, hopefully that helps with your CS.



I plan to rack and move them back in this weekend. It will be a month in the garage at that point. I could see a ton of sediment in them all today. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Boatboy24

OK did some chores after work. Not related to this thread, but I emptied Vadai #1 of the Kmeta/Citric solution that'd been in there for the last few weeks, then moved the Lanza Zinfandel into it. After freeing up that carboy, I racked the Chilean Carmenere out of the garage and into a clean carboy. Sadly, it still tastes like utter crap. I'll check pH on the Carmenere tomorrow, but I have low expectations. There was a lot of sediment in the carboy, but no crystals, like you'd expect. And again, the taste - I wouldn't drink this myself, I wouldn't serve it to anyone I know and I wouldn't even serve it to someone on hidden camera just to see the look on their face. It's just terrible. Tomorrow, I'll also rack and test the other three (Cab, Syrah, Merlot) and see how they did. Again, very low expectations. I can't believe it, but I really do think I'll be dumping 24 gallons of 'wine' very soon. I have other non-**** stuff to make and need the carboy space.


----------



## Tnuscan

Well of any thread I've ever read, I was hoping this one would have better news, fingers are still crossed.


Edit: Eyes probably will be too in a few more hours.


----------



## Boatboy24

I need to go back through this thread and see exactly when this nastiness showed up. I know that during primary, everything was good, and I was actually excited about these wines. Trouble started after that with not being able to get MLF going. I still have no idea what would have caused the pH to drop on these the way it did. But they were all between 3.44 and 3.7 at the start. Then this sourness started showing up, along with a musty sort of funk. I don't know if it is what some would call 'barnyard', but perhaps I have a Brett issue. These wines were unprotected for quite some time, so it is certainly a possibility. I will tell you I'm going to be far more particular about sulfite levels from this point forward. We'll have to see what the other three taste like this afternoon, but I expect more of the same.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Then this sourness started showing up, along with a musty sort of funk.



Brett Barnyard usually = organic to the point of cowpie. 

So it is both in the taste and the aroma? Is there a sherry note discernible in the taste or aroma? Just doing some research since I'm bored and had to sit down to rest from my active day of not drinking... time to go clean the bathrooms then plant my tomato seeds.


----------



## Tnuscan

If the sulfite levels and headspace were managed well during these final steps, (which I'm betting they were), and if it were Brett, then these two things may have keep it so that Noblesse might still have a chance to turn things around.

After reading this thread, and then seeing this: http://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/Delteil_Noblesse_guidelines_dec_2010.pdf 

I decided to keep noblesse, reduless and yeast hulls on hand at all times.


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> Brett Barnyard usually = organic to the point of cowpie.
> 
> So it is both in the taste and the aroma? Is there a sherry note discernible in the taste or aroma? Just doing some research since I'm bored and had to sit down to rest from my active day of not drinking... time to go clean the bathrooms then plant my tomato seeds.



Nope, no sherry taste.


----------



## Boatboy24

OK, so what's my plan with Noblesse?


----------



## Tnuscan

From my understanding, you add, agitate once and let sit a week, if it smells and taste fine rack and filter adding oak and age. 

If problem is still there add additional dose + 1/2 of the first dose, agitate once weekly for 1 month. and so on as instructions on page explains.

That's my understanding anyway, But if it were me I'd seek consultation from someone with actual experience. I've never had a contamination of any kind. Knock on wood. I purchased it on the old saying "better to have it and not need it, as need it, and not have it". Murphy's law seems to await my next move.

I just look at it as 1 more step before tossing. On 1, I might even add yeast hulls too, no more than they cost, this is just supposed to bind the issue and drop it out. Right?


----------



## Boatboy24

Anyone know what my target dosage is for 6 gallons?


----------



## Tnuscan

If it's thought to be Brett it requires 20 g/hl, a 1 hectoliter is 26.41 gallons. 
You have close to this having 4 batches. So I'm thinking 5 grams per carboy on initial addition. If a second addition is needed then add 7.5 grams per carboy. Right?
Your wanting to add the initial plus half again. 30 g/hl divided by 4 batches. On the second addition if needed.


----------



## Boatboy24

Got the other 3 racked from the garage today, along w/ a 3 gallon carboy of 'blend'. All had significant diamonds and were tasting somewhat better than before. The Syrah and cab in particular showed the most improvement. The Syrah has mellowed a fair amount, but still has the green pepper notes - but the harshness is a little tamed now. The cab actually has a pretty nice nose now with dark fruit and mocha coming through. Both had barrel time: the Syrah with roughly 20 weeks in a neutral barrel and the Cab had the same time in a 1 year old barrel. Not sure if the oak is masking some of the flaws in the cab, but it is currently better than it has been since primary - almost presentable. I need to top up all 4, add Meta and test pH. Ordered some Noblesse tonight, so we'll see what that does. The Cab is giving me a little hope. Still scratching my head on what might have gotten them where they are today though.


----------



## sdelli

Most likely not Bret... Chilean is well known for h2s problems. Especially in fresh fruit.
I have made so much wine from CA now guess I am spoiled and just don't enjoy drinking From the south. It seems to rarely comes to satisfaction.


----------



## Tnuscan

sdelli said:


> Most likely not Bret... Chilean is well known for h2s problems. Especially in fresh fruit.
> I have made so much wine from CA now guess I am spoiled and just don't enjoy drinking From the south. It seems to rarely comes to satisfaction.



Well if not, one could hit it with some reduless too. Is this your thinking, what would you suggest?

I was thinking this would be my personal choice if it were mine, using 5 to 6 grams of each on the next go, if it needed it. After that,


----------



## Boatboy24

H2S does not appear to be the issue here - at least not by smell. Any other signs of H2S I can look for? Again, this is a sour, kind of nasty taste. I guess you could say 'barnyard'. All are better after adjusting pH with K-carbonate and cold stabilization, but the issue remains. Noblesse arrived yesterday - I'll dose in the next couple days and see what a month on it does.


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## Tnuscan

I don't doubt H2S had a something to do with this earlier on, with the odors, and the mlf crawling along. It could be another bacterial infection, which i'm doubting it is. Brett would be my first guess and_ it_ has many characters along_ it's_ journey. Some encourage _it's_ early stage of the " barnyard character", I don't care for _it_ myself. 

I had a bottle, not that long ago, and_ it_ had progressed to having the_ "band-aid_" character. I feel that the winemaker didn't keep the sulfite maintained, _it _had most likely devoloped in the bottle. The pH was high on this wine, which helped with_ its_ progression also.

I'm hoping the treatment pulls this issue out. After racking over, (or even while racking) one might want to filter also.


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## sdelli

Bret is like the buzz word of choice in today's winemaking... When more times then not it is just the home winemaking process that creates h2s and is easily mistaken.


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## Tnuscan

Might pay to do the test on a liter of wine...???


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## Boatboy24

Tonight, I made the difficult decision to dump these wines. I know they aren't even 18 months old yet, but the minimal improvement they've made during this time tells me that these will never be something that I'll want to drink. I have too many other OK, decent, and even very good wines that I'll open before these. They are taking up needed carboy space and I'm not going to throw good money after bad to buy more carboys to accommodate these. Good news is they were cheap - juice buckets w/ a lug of grapes. 

Life's too short to drink sh!*%y wine - or spend time working on it.


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## Bodenski

Boatboy24 said:


> Tonight, I made the difficult decision to dump these wines. I know they aren't even 18 months old yet, but the minimal improvement they've made during this time tells me that these will never be something that I'll want to drink. I have too many other OK, decent, and even very good wines that I'll open before these. They are taking up needed carboy space and I'm not going to throw good money after bad to buy more carboys to accommodate these. Good news is they were cheap - juice buckets w/ a lug of grapes.
> 
> Life's too short to drink sh!*%y wine - or spend time working on it.



Sorry for your loss. I'm sure not an easy decision, or at least not a comfortable one.


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## balassley

Boatboy24 said:


> Tonight, I made the difficult decision to dump these wines. I know they aren't even 18 months old yet, but the minimal improvement they've made during this time tells me that these will never be something that I'll want to drink. I have too many other OK, decent, and even very good wines that I'll open before these. They are taking up needed carboy space and I'm not going to throw good money after bad to buy more carboys to accommodate these. Good news is they were cheap - juice buckets w/ a lug of grapes.
> 
> Life's too short to drink sh!*%y wine - or spend time working on it.


I feel your pain. My Chilean Syrah was NOT good last I checked (before bottling). The green pepper was just overpowering. I still bottled it hoping it would mellow out in time. Wishful thinking? My next tester bottle is in January. Pretty sure it'll still register BAD. This was my 1st time going all grapes and was quite a disappointment. I'll only purchase California grapes going forward.


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## Ajmassa

Your a smart man. I bottled a bad batch at 18 months thinking it woulda been ok. Now they're waiting to be uncorked and dumped at 23 months. 
https://youtu.be/Jj4nJ1YEAp4


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Tonight, I made the difficult decision to dump these wines. I know they aren't even 18 months old yet, but the minimal improvement they've made during this time tells me that these will never be something that I'll want to drink. I have too many other OK, decent, and even very good wines that I'll open before these. They are taking up needed carboy space and I'm not going to throw good money after bad to buy more carboys to accommodate these. Good news is they were cheap - juice buckets w/ a lug of grapes.
> 
> Life's too short to drink sh!*%y wine - or spend time working on it.



You gotta know when to cut and run, and you have the experience to make that call, onward!


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## jgmann67

Hate to read stories like this. Sorry Jim. Live and learn, right?


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Live and learn, right?



Frustrating part is I haven't learned. The source of the issue is still a complete mystery.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Frustrating part is I haven't learned. The source of the issue is still a complete mystery.



Yea, that's what bugs me about it. I'd feel okay if you knew what caused it so you'd could avoid the same situation on a future batch.


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## ibglowin

What was the big issue(s) with these wine(s) Jim?




Boatboy24 said:


> Frustrating part is I haven't learned. The source of the issue is still a complete mystery.


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## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> What was the big issue(s) with these wine(s) Jim?



There was a very harsh, overly acidic profile. Fruit was non-existent as was any other flavor, aside what I would describe as 'dirty dishwater'. They were just unpleasant. Also a strong green pepper nose and flavor in the Syrah. Pre-fermentation numbers were pretty good and flavor early on was as well.


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## geek

It sounds like the WE LE 2014 super Tuscan.....mehhhhh


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## jgmann67

geek said:


> It sounds like the WE LE 2014 super Tuscan.....mehhhhh




I'll second the 'meh'. But, it was at least drinkable.


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I'll second the 'meh'. But, it was at least drinkable.



This goes way beyond 'meh'. Drinkable, I can deal with, but this is somewhat unpleasant.


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## mainshipfred

Really hated reading this. Could it have been just bad juice? Kind of strange all 4 were different juices with the same result. Had anyone else bought the same juice that you know of?


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Really hated reading this. Could it have been just bad juice? Kind of strange all 4 were different juices with the same result. Had anyone else bought the same juice that you know of?



Carmenere, Cab Sauv, Syrah, Merlot anyone?

Fred: They all seemed to start just fine. It was when I got to MLF that I started having issues. MLF wouldn't take off, then things started going south aroma and taste-wise.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Carmenere, Cab Sauv, Syrah, Merlot anyone?
> 
> Fred: They all seemed to start just fine. It was when I got to MLF that I started having issues. MLF wouldn't take off, then things started going south aroma and taste-wise.



I did a Pinot Noir in 2016, did a Syrah this year. I haven't tested the PN since the end of May, thanks for the reminder to rack and Kmeta this weekend. Maybe I'll tip a carboy tonight and confirm it is still progressing in the right direction. I'm about out of beer, sounds like a good alternative.


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## ibglowin

Just a WAG here but more than likely the grapes were picked too early. Even if they brix is up to where it needs to be things happen the longer you let the grapes hang on the vine and ripen further. One of the things that falls the longer you let a grape hang is Pyrazine which is the culprit for the vegetal (bell pepper) off flavors/odors. If you have not you should tell Harford what happened. Its 5000 miles from Chile to the DC area and they probably jumped the gun a little early as I think most often the problem is over ripe fruit that molds before it makes its way to the US.


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