# WHATTTTT???? Hows this even possible????



## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

Cheers!!
First off thanks for the answer, if it's possible there is one.
And I promise this is true.
I just stabilized a 6 gallon W.E. kit of Diablo Rojo, had lots of head space 
so I added Co2 placed bung with (the airlock that has the small bell that 
you drop into and fill with liquid) into the carboy. 3 different kits sitting 
together. Later I went in to check on them and noticed the bell on one 
had bottomed out . Thought this was odd so I was going to peck it to get 
it to pop back up and when I did in the Blink of an eye it Back flushed 
almost all the liquid into the carboy. What could cause such a fast and hard
vacuum that would make this possible? Got paranoid changed all to the to
s type. Gassed them up and a day latter all the liquid is on the side toward
the carboy.

Thanks!!


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 1, 2016)

CO2 is what we try to take out of wine. Adding more seems counter to all I know...


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## Bent-Brewer (Feb 1, 2016)

What's the temperature like where you're storing the wine? If it dropped even a couple degrees, it could start to suck some of the airlock fluid back in. I always get a little suckback when pulling the 3 piece airlocks just because you're still getting a seal with the bung as you pull it, increasing the internal volume. I'll typically stick a paper towel into the fluid to absorb some before pulling a 3 piece. As for that s-type... I have no clue. There really isn't much liquid volume, so it could have been temperature related... It's the only thing that makes sense... Unless your bung slowly slipped upwards after insertion. Those are the only things I know of- ideal gas law explains both.

As for topping off with CO2, it definitely makes sense. Flooding the head space will greatly reduce the amount of air as long as you can get it capped off quickly. Yes, you want the CO2 out of the wine, but you're not getting much absorption without positive pressure. Think of it like the "blanket" during fermentation. I do it with my beers all the time. Technically, you could do one step better by swapping out the CO2 for argon or nitrogen, but they need different tanks and regulators.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 1, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Cheers!!
> First off thanks for the answer, if it's possible there is one.



I suppose this is Henry's Law at work.

Let's assume (for convenience) there was no CO2 in your wine before you filled your head space with CO2. After you filled the headspace, some of the CO2 moved into solution. It would move into solution until the partial pressure of the CO2 in solution equaled 1 atmosphere. (For you purists, a little less than that due to the dilution with air as air gets sucked through the airlock.) Anyway, as the CO2 moves into solution, it must be replaced by something, so air moves through the airlock to replace it.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

DoctorCAD said:


> CO2 is what we try to take out of wine. Adding more seems counter to all I know...



Why would the place I buy my wine kits from, tell me to use this if it was not good for wine? I was told the CO2 would lay on the wine and fill the head space. This set up cost me $170.00 dollars.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

Bent-Brewer said:


> What's the temperature like where you're storing the wine? If it dropped even a couple degrees, it could start to suck some of the airlock fluid back in. I always get a little suckback when pulling the 3 piece airlocks just because you're still getting a seal with the bung as you pull it, increasing the internal volume. I'll typically stick a paper towel into the fluid to absorb some before pulling a 3 piece. As for that s-type... I have no clue. There really isn't much liquid volume, so it could have been temperature related... It's the only thing that makes sense... Unless your bung slowly slipped upwards after insertion. Those are the only things I know of- ideal gas law explains both.
> 
> As for topping off with CO2, it definitely makes sense. Flooding the head space will greatly reduce the amount of air as long as you can get it capped off quickly. Yes, you want the CO2 out of the wine, but you're not getting much absorption without positive pressure. Think of it like the "blanket" during fermentation. I do it with my beers all the time. Technically, you could do one step better by swapping out the CO2 for argon or nitrogen, but they need different tanks and regulators.



Confused. 
I was trying to keep the oxygen out. The temps have fluctuated here but the room they are in is set at 74deg. on thermostat. What would you suggest I do? 
Thanks again!

Oops. I did unplug the heat for a good while, to move things around once.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> I suppose this is Henry's Law at work.
> 
> Let's assume (for convenience) there was no CO2 in your wine before you filled your head space with CO2. After you filled the headspace, some of the CO2 moved into solution. It would move into solution until the partial pressure of the CO2 in solution equaled 1 atmosphere. (For you purists, a little less than that due to the dilution with air as air gets sucked through the airlock.) Anyway, as the CO2 moves into solution, it must be replaced by something, so air moves through the airlock to replace it.



Not understanding this as I should. I did degas it very well, I didn't realize there was enough pressure to push it( into) the wine. Lots more than I realized to learn. Wish I knew this before throwing my money away.

Thanks!


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## Putterrr (Feb 2, 2016)

the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers

http://vintable.com/


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## Arne (Feb 2, 2016)

Was this a plastic carboy or glass? If plastic, did you squeeze it a little while placing the airlock? If so, it sucked back in when you released the carboy. Arne.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 2, 2016)

Arne said:


> Was this a plastic carboy or glass? If plastic, did you squeeze it a little while placing the airlock? If so, it sucked back in when you released the carboy. Arne.



Thanks! It was a glass carboy and has not been disturbed. The thing that puzzles me the most is the force that the suction had when I wiggled the little bell inside the air lock. It was a little to aggressive (like one of those new toilets that flush very fast), very aggressive... The pressure of this vacuum was to fast and aggressive to match surrounding pressures, (to my understandings of Physics and chemistry which are limited).
Thanks again!!


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## JohnT (Feb 2, 2016)

Let me be simple about this... Head space is evil! 

Adding CO2 does not give you a "blanket" to protect your wine. What happens is that your CO2 mixes with the O2 in that headspace. 

A lot of folks think that, since you can "open ferment" wine (where a protective blanket of CO2 is formed), you can get the same protection by adding CO2 after fermentation to eliminate head space. This is not the same scenario. 

During fermentation, the source of CO2 is constant and is sourced from the wine itself. A steady, positive pressure of CO2 prevents outside air from reaching your must, thus protecting it.

In what you are doing, CO2 is added in a relatively short burst. It is simply not the same thing. O2 is completely "pushed out". Some O2 will be simply mixed with your CO2. 

Another problem is that carboys breathe. Due to barometric pressure and temperature changes, your headspace will expand and contract. This will draw air into the carboy, and expel the gas from the headspace out through your fermentation trap. In time, all of that CO2 in your headspace can be replaced with outside air.

For headspace, my best recommendation is to add a similar wine to your carboy to remove that headspace. Above all, this is the cheapest and easiest solution to a head space issue. Please use wine and not water!

Others add marbles to displace the wine and remove the headspace.

You could also try using the "Headspace Eliminator" that some are using (via vacuumpumpman). This keeps your wine under vacuum and I have heard that folks are happy with the results.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 2, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Let me be simple about this... Head space is evil!
> 
> Adding CO2 does not give you a "blanket" to protect your wine. What happens is that your CO2 mixes with the O2 in that headspace.
> 
> ...


 
Very valuable information, and very much appreciated.

Will give them ("Headspace Eliminators") a try.

Many thanks!


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## Bent-Brewer (Feb 2, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> I suppose this is Henry's Law at work.



Yes. That. I'm gonna blame me being tired when I posted for forgetting that entirely, though I guess I shouldn't, because I deal with it routinely at work (blending two liquefied gasses at different head pressures). You will have some absorption back into the wine, but at 1ATM pressure, you shouldn't see any more than what people who let their wine degas on its own over 6+ months.

Eliminating headspace is still king. Flushing headspace won't evacuate all the free O2, but can help reduce it significantly if done correctly. I'd (carefully) add food-grade marbles or top it off with more wine. I have no experience with the vacuum saver, so can't say anything one way or the other. The logic behind it makes sense though.



Putterrr said:


> the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers
> 
> http://vintable.com/



Somehow I've never seen those before (guess they're probably not super necessary with beer), but now it looks like I'm adding more equipment to my collection...


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## Arne (Feb 2, 2016)

Somehow I've never seen those before (guess they're probably not super necessary with beer), but now it looks like I'm adding more equipment to my collection...[/QUOTE]

LOL, and it never ends. Arne.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 2, 2016)

Putterrr said:


> the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers
> 
> http://vintable.com/



Interesting!

I will give these a try.

Thanks!


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## ibglowin (Feb 2, 2016)

Most LHBS sell 90% Beer making supplies and maybe 10% wine supplies and most of them don't know much about wine. Argon is the best gas for temporary back filling of headspace in wine. I would snag a couple of the headspace vacuum stoppers from Allinone for short term bulk aging of wines.

What type of setup did you purchase for $170?



Tnuscan said:


> Why would the place I buy my wine kits from, tell me to use this if it was not good for wine? I was told the CO2 would lay on the wine and fill the head space. This set up cost me $170.00 dollars.


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## JimmyT (Feb 2, 2016)

Putterrr said:


> the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers
> 
> http://vintable.com/




I use these every chance I get. If my jug carboy or bottle will accept it, it goes in!
I'm a big fan of racking down to smaller carboys/jugs/bottle combos instead of topping up.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Most LHBS sell 90% Beer making supplies and maybe 10% wine supplies and most of them don't know much about wine. Argon is the best gas for temporary back filling of headspace in wine. I would snag a couple of the headspace vacuum stoppers from Allinone for short term bulk aging of wines.
> 
> What type of setup did you purchase for $170?



Thanks for the info! Your correct on the percentages of the "LHBS".

I purchased a CO2 tank (filled).

Regulator and hose With clamp.

A simple set up, maybe they didn't know????

I have ordered the vacuum stoppers (which I didn't know of until recently). I have had the Allinone Wine Pump for years, (which I love, and hope everyone gets to know the joy, and ease it brings to wine making). It was a great Investment (truth is truth, simple as that). 

Thanks for the info!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

JimmyT said:


> I use these every chance I get. If my jug carboy or bottle will accept it, it goes in!
> I'm a big fan of racking down to smaller carboys/jugs/bottle combos instead of topping up.



Thanks!

Your correct! I will match 5 gallon carboys to my 6 gallon carboys. As for now I have more 6's, I've ordered some of the "Headspace Eliminators" and I am excited about trying them. If they're as Awesome as the Allinone is, my problems are solved!

I'm learning, a lot from this forum.

Thanks again!!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

JimmyT said:


> I use these every chance I get. If my jug carboy or bottle will accept it, it goes in!
> I'm a big fan of racking down to smaller carboys/jugs/bottle combos instead of topping up.



So sorry I misunderstood your comment. 

I am getting some of these to try also. I like different ideas and backups. 

Very interested in trying these out.

Thanks again!!


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## JohnT (Feb 3, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Thanks for the info! Your correct on the percentages of the "LHBS".
> 
> I purchased a CO2 tank (filled).
> 
> ...


 
OK, 

so now you just need a little fridge and a cornelius keg and you can then have champagne on tap! You can also have a homebrew beer keg system if that is your thing....


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## jswordy (Feb 3, 2016)

To answer OP question: Barometric pressure rise or great temperature differential between the inside temp (lower) and the outside temp (higher). 

The atmospheric pressure outside the water and cap was greater than the pressure inside, which is why it was depressed. When you knocked it loose and unsealed the tube, the water was pushed into the tube to equalize the pressure between the inside of the carboy and the outside. 

That is one reason liquid is best used to top up. It keeps the volume of gas in the carboy small.

I've seen this cap depression happen when weather fronts are approaching. That's why, as long as the cap is covered by solution, I don't mess with it. Front passes and all returns to normal.

I have seen all the liquid in a U trap get sucked out by the same phenomenon.


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## WineYooper (Feb 3, 2016)

I use the s-trap and fill with a kmeta water mix so if anything gets sucked in it will only help longevity. I only add to the line on the trap. With change in atmospheric pressure or temp in the room I have them the liquid does move to one side or the other depending on outside forces. It happens on both, better bottles & glass but more on the better bottles. Have never had it get sucked in tho. Usually if you have the proper kmeta added and small head space, bottom of neck or into but not too close to the stopper, the gas that comes off from kmeta will actually protect it.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

JohnT said:


> OK,
> 
> so now you just need a little fridge and a cornelius keg and you can then have champagne on tap! You can also have a homebrew beer keg system if that is your thing....



Lol, 

You must own stock in my LHBS..??

Now that I think about it, I am being led more to that side of the store. At this moment, all I can afford is taking the CO2 out.

I do have me a Debubblin Machine (AllInOne), just aint fast enuf switchin em thar stoppers. lol.

Cheers!!!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

jswordy said:


> To answer OP question: Barometric pressure rise or great temperature differential between the inside temp (lower) and the outside temp (higher).
> 
> The atmospheric pressure outside the water and cap was greater than the pressure inside, which is why it was depressed. When you knocked it loose and unsealed the tube, the water was pushed into the tube to equalize the pressure between the inside of the carboy and the outside.
> 
> ...



Wow!

Weather did go from 60's, to 6 inch snow, to rain, to 70's in about a weeks time. Makes more since now than when it happened.

Many Thanks!

Aftr it happnd, cleaned me britches, took to tha books, not undirstandin dem books , took to dis putter an foun tha anserz. An I hates whin dem Fernominoms happin, spechally whin dey happin to me. lol.

Preciate cha!!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

WineYooper said:


> I use the s-trap and fill with a kmeta water mix so if anything gets sucked in it will only help longevity. I only add to the line on the trap. With change in atmospheric pressure or temp in the room I have them the liquid does move to one side or the other depending on outside forces. It happens on both, better bottles & glass but more on the better bottles. Have never had it get sucked in tho. Usually if you have the proper kmeta added and small head space, bottom of neck or into but not too close to the stopper, the gas that comes off from kmeta will actually protect it.



Thanks! 

This was probably the only one I didn't put Kmeta in too. lol

I'm going to start using the best Vodka money can buy, so when I can get all the way through the process, 

I'l jerk dat suker out lif it in tha air sa cherz an drink it. lol

Preciadit!


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## jensmith (Feb 3, 2016)

Putterrr said:


> the CO2 debate aside, waterless airlocks work great. never had an issue in a couple years of use. cheers
> 
> http://vintable.com/




Went to the web site, places to buy but no info on what makes these so great. How do they work?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 3, 2016)

jensmith said:


> Went to the web site, places to buy but no info on what makes these so great. How do they work?



I do not know, my best guess is a diaphragm design.

One way pressure releases, the other direction it seals off.

Justa guessin a rubba dummafloppin thanga-majiggy. 

Yeontone too. lol


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## JimmyT (Feb 4, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> One way pressure releases, the other direction it seals off.
> 
> 
> 
> Justa guessin a rubba dummafloppin thanga-majiggy.




Dis rite her!


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## Putterrr (Feb 4, 2016)

jensmith said:


> Went to the web site, places to buy but no info on what makes these so great. How do they work?


 
the bung has 5 small vent holes that go from top to bottom arranged around the outside, there is also a larger hole that goes down the middle but not all the way through. in the big hole the is a stem with a flap that covers the smaller holes. kind of like an umbrella. when the carboy builds up too much pressure the air can escape out from under the umbrella. when the pressure in the carboy if less and wants to pull air in to equalize things, the umbella is pulled down tigher and nothing gets in. Roger is the guy you want to ask for at vintable

there you go. bobs your uncle

cheers


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## JohnT (Feb 4, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'l jerk dat suker out lif it in tha air sa cherz an drink it. lol
> 
> Preciadit!


 

OK, Time to spend a little less time performing "Quality Control" on your wine!


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## jensmith (Feb 4, 2016)

Thanks! They sound like they would be a good choice for bulk aging in a carboy. I'd miss listening to the bubbles from a lightly fermenting jug however


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## JimmyT (Feb 4, 2016)

jensmith said:


> Thanks! They sound like they would be a good choice for bulk aging in a carboy. I'd miss listening to the bubbles from a lightly fermenting jug however




I still use a regular airlock for fermentation. After I rack for bulk that's when I put the one way bungs in.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 4, 2016)

JohnT said:


> OK, Time to spend a little less time performing "Quality Control" on your wine!



Tnuscan really, liked this!

Tnuscan almost P'd himself. lol.


Thanks!!!!!!


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## JohnT (Feb 4, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Tnuscan really, liked this!
> 
> Tnuscan almost P'd himself. lol.
> 
> ...


 

OK, So now you are referring to yourself in the third-person?? Are you having an out-of-body experience??


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## Tnuscan (Feb 4, 2016)

JohnT said:


> OK, So now you are referring to yourself in the third-person?? Are you having an out-of-body experience??




......life is good!!!


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