# St. James Winery Winemaker



## winemaker_3352 (Aug 13, 2012)

Doug (Brew and Wine Supply) had the distinct pleasure to get a personal walk thru the St. James Winery in MO (largest winery in MO) with the winemaker Andrew Meggitt.

Talk about a great guy!! Andrew was a pleasure talking to and doing business with. I will be going back to him for more juice!!!


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 13, 2012)

It was quite a morning, You should have see our eyes when they took us into the room with 5- 25,000 gallon fermenting tanks.
Could have stayed there all day, so much going on, and everyone was willing to talk to us. 
I ended up with 32 gallons of chardonell and 10 gallons of Rougeon juice. The adventure is on...


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 13, 2012)

Agreed - I could have easily spent all day talking to them. They were very friendly and willing to help with anything or question we had.

The 25,000 gallon tanks were breath taking to see. They had to take the roof off the building and sky lift those in.

Looking forward to doing it again..


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## BobF (Aug 14, 2012)

Next time you guys make the visit, let me know and I'll meet you there.

I've been there quite a bit, but didn't realize they would sell juice. Do they sell grapes also?


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 14, 2012)

Our day started out at a little after 7am at the store. An hour and a half drive to St. James, MO. we arrived at the winery. Drove around back and pulled up to a set of sliding doors on the metal building. Inside we saw rows of stainless tanks and the floor covered with hoses. 
Andrew met us at the door and greated us with an Aussie accent. We got our containers out of the truck and rinsed out the K meta we had in them. His assistant drug a 4" hose of of the warehouse and put the end that looked like a 4' long gas nozzle, into a 4'x8' tank and turned on the valve, out came the juice with a good amout of leas, they ran it untill it somewhat cleared, then into the truck to fill our containers.
After filling us up, the hose went back into the tank to flush the lines ( found out afterwards, the juice was filtered and returned to the tank).
Andrew left to fill out our paperwork, and his asst. proceded to show us around. We started out back where the driveway came in and a huge overhead crane, next to that was a hopper where the 18 wheelers would drop the grapes into a de-stemer that was some 20' long.
From there we went back inside to a series of 6" and 8" pipes interwound through more stainless steel tanks, some covered with frost. Then through a pair of doors and there were the 5 25,000 gallon tanks. Not sure of the exact measurments, but we guessed they were between 30' to 50' wide and about 100' tall. All sat on 4' concrete pads.
Andrew came and got us at this time and went into an office where we got our bills and a print out of the brix, TA and Ph. We told Andrew our plans of what type of wine we were going to make, and he made so many suggestions I had trouble keeping up with notes. After paying, headed out to the truck to secure our bounty.
We could have stayed much longer soaking in all the info that was presented to us, Jon had the day off, but I had to get back and open the store.
This is just a brief overview, to go into more detail would be a second by second replay. Simply amazing. Looks like Jon and I are heading back next year.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 14, 2012)

BobF said:


> Next time you guys make the visit, let me know and I'll meet you there.
> 
> I've been there quite a bit, but didn't realize they would sell juice. Do they sell grapes also?


 
They sell only juice, 50 gallon minimum. Something about scales for selling the grapes. We figured out that buying juice is better than getting the grapes, they are destemed and crushed for you and the price we think worked out better than if we had bought just grapes.
Would love to meet up with you.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 14, 2012)

This is the first white wine I have made, pitched the yeast last night already have quite a bit of acitvity... 
eeeewwwww looks like...well something yellowish brown and foamy...

I like the looks of fermenting red wine.


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## BobF (Aug 14, 2012)

I started an Apple-Jalapeno yesterday (3G)

Looks great to me and smells heavenly!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 14, 2012)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> This is the first white wine I have made, pitched the yeast last night already have quite a bit of acitvity...
> eeeewwwww looks like...well something yellowish brown and foamy...
> 
> I like the looks of fermenting red wine.



Yeah mine too. Last year my chardonel look like chocolate milk when transferred into the carboy.

No worries - it is a golden straw color now - once it all settles the color resumes as it should..


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 14, 2012)

BobF said:


> Next time you guys make the visit, let me know and I'll meet you there.
> 
> I've been there quite a bit, but didn't realize they would sell juice. Do they sell grapes also?




Yeah - maybe next year we can get the MO folks to all meet up there or something Meet Andrew - hang out for a while - hit the tasting room.

Leave with our juice!!

FYI - St. James is harvesting more chardonel tomorrow nite.


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## ckassotis (Aug 15, 2012)

Very interesting. I had no idea they sold juice! I would definitely be interested in checking that out in the future. 

Just to clarify, you said they sold at minimum in 50 gallon batches? Yet in your first post you said you got 32 gallons of chardonel and 10 gal of rougeon? It strikes me that neither of these is 50, nor is the combined total 50. Did you split this with someone, and this was your take, or do they allow you to make up the 50 with different varieties?

Might be worth making a trip down from Columbia! Thanks for the info!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 15, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> Very interesting. I had no idea they sold juice! I would definitely be interested in checking that out in the future.
> 
> Just to clarify, you said they sold at minimum in 50 gallon batches? Yet in your first post you said you got 32 gallons of chardonel and 10 gal of rougeon? It strikes me that neither of these is 50, nor is the combined total 50. Did you split this with someone, and this was your take, or do they allow you to make up the 50 with different varieties?
> 
> Might be worth making a trip down from Columbia! Thanks for the info!



It is 55 gallons min.

Yes we got 70 gallons of chardonel - split it 35 gallons a piece. Doug's container was only 32 though - not 35 

I think I actually got about 37 gallons. Filled my 32 brute container to a few inches from the top - then my 6 gallon bucket to the top.

While we were there - Doug asked if he could get 6 gallons of red juice. The only juice they had that did not have alcohol was the Rougeon.

He got 10 gallons of that.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 15, 2012)

Jon, what have you done with your juice so far?


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## ckassotis (Aug 15, 2012)

Fantastic! Will have to see if I can coordinate with someone for next year perhaps. Mind if I ask what you paid? I was actually thinking today that would be a great sticky for this forum. A by-state list of what people were buying grapes/fruit for, to give other people (mostly within their state, but also further out) a better idea of whether or not they were getting good prices or not.


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## Ron22 (Aug 15, 2012)

If we planed this right we could get about 9 people and we could each get 6 gallons.
Of course it would have to happen when I am in Missouri


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## UBB (Aug 15, 2012)

<-------------Is jealous!


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 15, 2012)

It was $6 a gallon for the chardonell and $8+ something for the Rougeon +$5 each for the pair of buckets. My total bill was just over $300. Thought my barrel was 35 gallons, only to find out after I got home it was 32 gallons.

I've been playing with the chardonell. Have them in 6-7.9 gallon buckets with 6 gallons in each except for the last one which has two. the first 4 buckets came out pretty clear ( tasted like peach juice) the last 7 gallons came from when I had to dump the drum up side down and got pretty cloudy with lees. All are bubbling along real nice. It now tastes like green apple juice. 

The Rougeon is another story. Its foaming like a bubble bath. moved it to the basement to cool it down, has 6" of head space and is foaming over. SG on that is getting pretty low 1.010 to 1.015 ( each bucket) but starting SG was only 1.052. 
Not sure how long or what yeast they had pitched before I got it. It is still foaming pretty good.
Anyone have any experience with Rougeon grapes?
They make a semi sweet wine with it, I want a dry and Andrew says it makes a good dry with some added tannin. 
With a SG of 1.052, that gives a pot. alcohol of only 7%. Thinking of adding some sugar to get the alcohol up, but better do it soon.


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## ckassotis (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks for the info! So doing some quick math... 50 pounds of grapes will net you roughly 3.5 gallons do you think?

So I figure most people are buying by grape weight, just curious how that compares. So if I assume that, then it would roughly be 14.3 pounds of grapes per gallon of wine. 

So that would put your price/lb at $0.42 for the chardonel and $0.56 for the rougeon. Seems to me that is quite a bit lower than I have seen for most grapes. 

Checking the MGGA real quick, I see some chambourcin at $0.65/lb and some concord/cat at $0.55/lb. And that is all raw price, not getting your grapes crushed/pressed for that. 

Might also be underestimating the juice amount, which would drop the price a bit from St. James. Sounds like a pretty solid deal, overall. Only downside is the volume. Really need some people to go in on it together!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 16, 2012)

The math looks right - but for Chardonel - i do 18#'s per gallon. The grapes i used to get were $.50 per pound - comes out to $9 per gallon.

We got the juice for $6 per gallon - do the opposite it figures out to be $.34 per #..


Much better deal that I have ever seen - and all the crushing/destemming/SO2 additions/cold soaking is all already done.

For $15 - he will supply a 55 gallon blue drum to transport the wine in..

We also get the juice off the first settling from the cold soak...

Luckily Doug was willing to go in with me - 55 gallons is a lot - I was going to attempt it - but then Doug said he was in.


Doug - I just have my chardonel fermenting at 58* - it does smell alot like green apples with some peach smell - I have added some french oak in - so i can smell a hint of that as well...

I definitely plan on going back to them next year...


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## BobF (Aug 16, 2012)

Count me in when you go! Did they have Seyval? I've been wanting to try Seyval as a base for fruit.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 16, 2012)

BobF said:


> Count me in when you go! Did they have Seyval? I've been wanting to try Seyval as a base for fruit.




They normally do have Seyval and Vidal - but not this year.

Will try to get some next year.

Nobeleis Vineyard has Vidal - 300#'s min - $1.25/#


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## BobF (Aug 16, 2012)

I'll wait for juice ....


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## ckassotis (Aug 16, 2012)

Hrm. Would love some chardonel and some norton, ideally. Still hoping I will get it, but need to look into some other options as well. Another red perhaps, as well. I know pretty much all of the reds are still to be collected, so that would likely be the easiest thing to do.


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## ckassotis (Aug 16, 2012)

But for sure, if people plan another trip (either this year for a red) or next year, please keep me (and others) in the loop - could be a fun gathering for some MO winemakers and an opportunity for everyone to get a bit of juice.


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## ckassotis (Aug 16, 2012)

winemaker_3352 said:


> The math looks right - but for Chardonel - i do 18#'s per gallon. The grapes i used to get were $.50 per pound - comes out to $9 per gallon.
> 
> We got the juice for $6 per gallon - do the opposite it figures out to be $.34 per #..
> 
> ...



Yeah, definitely don't think I could or would want to handle that much. Frankly even 30 of one variety is a bit much for me. Would rather have some smaller volumes of a couple varieties. 

Absolutely looks like a great deal. The inclusion of the handling/crushing/pressing is pretty great and takes a lot out of the equation in terms of work for you or additional costs trying to get that done elsewhere. 

Very cool. Thanks for sharing, you two!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 16, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> Yeah, definitely don't think I could or would want to handle that much. Frankly even 30 of one variety is a bit much for me. Would rather have some smaller volumes of a couple varieties.
> 
> Absolutely looks like a great deal. The inclusion of the handling/crushing/pressing is pretty great and takes a lot out of the equation in terms of work for you or additional costs trying to get that done elsewhere.
> 
> Very cool. Thanks for sharing, you two!




Anytime - and if we plan another trip - which i know we will - we will post it and see what and how much everybody wants.

Plan an outing...


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## UBB (Aug 16, 2012)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Anytime - and if we plan another trip - which i know we will - we will post it and see what and how much everybody wants.
> 
> Plan an outing...




Any chance you'd be taking the 'scenic' route through North Dakota??


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 16, 2012)

UBB said:


> Any chance you'd be taking the 'scenic' route through North Dakota??




Maybe when I am older and retired


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 16, 2012)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Anytime - and if we plan another trip - which i know we will - we will post it and see what and how much everybody wants.
> 
> Plan an outing...



Uh Jon.... what is the weight limit on your truck???:<


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 16, 2012)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> Uh Jon.... what is the weight limit on your truck???:<



That was just for the purchase - not for hauling everything for everybody


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## BobF (Aug 16, 2012)

I'll haul everybody's juice for them.

Everybody has until the start of fermentation to pick up their juice from my place


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## rodo (Aug 16, 2012)

> Anyone have any experience with Rougeon grapes?


 
I did Rougeon last fall and have another batch aging now. Most people who have had it (Julie, Runningwolf) among others say they like it alot, my wife says it was the best from last year. It was my second favorite from last year.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 16, 2012)

What type of grape and wine did you make? I am going for dry, but with a starting SG of only 1.052 I added 2.5 lbs sugar to 5 +- gallons. new readings are 1.010 and 1.025 ( two buckets) Hope to hit 10% ABV.


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## ckassotis (Aug 16, 2012)

Sounds a bit odd for a MO grape, especially this season, to be that low on sugar. I haven't seen much of any reds being harvested yet though. Outside of a few select ones, most vineyards are waiting longer for reds. St. James makes a decent dessert wine out of that though. Not stellar, but pretty decent.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 16, 2012)

My thought is they pitched the yeast a few days before and they gave me the SG when I got it, not when they pitched the yeast. It may have been higher to start with. I e-mailed them, no reply yet.
So I have some rocket fuel! LOL 

I'll rack them tomorrow, need some more bottles. Racked 2 1/2 buckets of the chardonell this evening, the other 3 are ready too... anyone know where I can get some carboys...LOL


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## ckassotis (Aug 17, 2012)

Ah hah! Well then you will have some excellent rocket fuel! Hahaha. On the bright side, like I said, they make a higher alcohol dessert wine with it, so that might be what you end up with. 

Slip into your store under the cover of night and steal some bottles. Then in the morning act confused that they are missing!


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 17, 2012)

car is already loaded with carboys. Fermentation was fast. almost everything needs racking, just pitched the yeast Monday nite. It was in a spare room in the house so air temp around 75*. I did move the Rougeon to the basement where it was cooler, but fermentation was the same, ready to rack.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 17, 2012)

My Chardonel's SG is right now at 1.074... Cold Ferment at 56*...

Been going since monday...


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## ckassotis (Aug 17, 2012)

Hey Jon, looks like I'll have about 6-7 gallons of chardonel in a few days to play with. Here's my question - how do you handle the cold ferment? My apt stays a pretty constant 75 in all types of weather, unless it drops a bit lower in the winter. Do you have any tricks for keeping the primary colder for fermentation? One of the things I have been curious about for a bit now. Without having like, a cellar or something.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 18, 2012)

Yeah, he cheats, he has a converted chest freezer 
Mine was fermented between 73 and 78* and went fast. Played with different chemicals, still have one to be racked but others were ready in three to four days. Not sure how things are going to turn out that fast. Just hopeing for the best.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 18, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> Hey Jon, looks like I'll have about 6-7 gallons of chardonel in a few days to play with. Here's my question - how do you handle the cold ferment? My apt stays a pretty constant 75 in all types of weather, unless it drops a bit lower in the winter. Do you have any tricks for keeping the primary colder for fermentation? One of the things I have been curious about for a bit now. Without having like, a cellar or something.




Yeah - I have a 23 cu ft chest freezer with a thermostat override. Works great - I have the juice fermenting down at 54* right now....

I also use it for cold stabilizing - I can get it down to about 24* - but i generally take it to 28* for about 3 weeks.

What you can do to help out - ferment in a room that is not facing the sun all day - not many windows. Open the AC vents and close the door..


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## ckassotis (Aug 19, 2012)

Hmmm... that would be pretty handy! Haha. Unfortunately, nothing really that fits the bill. I did have a thought - if I can find some sort of tray - deepish, I could place the primary in there and load it up with ice. I've heard this for tubs, but I never quite understood how people could accomplish that. Unless they have a spare, or get awfully smelly during primary fermentation.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 19, 2012)

ckassotis said:


> Hmmm... that would be pretty handy! Haha. Unfortunately, nothing really that fits the bill. I did have a thought - if I can find some sort of tray - deepish, I could place the primary in there and load it up with ice. I've heard this for tubs, but I never quite understood how people could accomplish that. Unless they have a spare, or get awfully smelly during primary fermentation.



You could get a large brute container - put ice water in it - then put your container in it. But you would have to monitor it to keep the temp and the desired levels...


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 22, 2012)

Well - results are in - racked my Chardonel into glass carboys.

I racked about 34 gallons over - paid for 35 - so paid $6 over - not bad.

When it is all said and finished - I am hoping to get 32-33 gallons of finished wine.

I also realized - I need more airlocks and #7 Drilled bungs - Doug - probably coming out your way soon..


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Aug 22, 2012)

You know where to find me.

I racked my last weekend, ended up with about 32 gallons of chardonell and 10 gallons of rougeon.


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 7, 2012)

Chardonel is shaping up nicely and clearing right now.

Chemistry on it:

TA = 6.6 g/l
PH = 3.74
Starting SG = 1.098
Ending SG = .996

It has a very string apple smell on the nose followed by some melon and grassy notes.

I know for a white - the TA seems a bit low and the PH a bit high - both are within range - not too concerned with it - but might try to get it around:


TA = 6.8 g/l
PH = 3.55 - 3.60

I am going to Oak the Chardonel a little - and for this white - I don't want the TA to be very high.


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2012)

Looks like your PH might be a bit high.


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 8, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Looks like your PH might be a bit high.




Yeah - I know. I am considering adding some TA to get the TA up to about 6.8 g/l and try to bring the PH down between 3.5-3.6.

But still debating - as it tastes great right now - don't want to compromise the taste - but also don't want it to spoil b/c the PH is a bit high.

Thoughts?? Where the PH is - would it be alright??


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Oct 8, 2012)

I need to check my numbers, at the moment just watching them sit. They don't seem to be clearing very well, will rack once more then think about adding something to help clear it.


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 8, 2012)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> I need to check my numbers, at the moment just watching them sit. They don't seem to be clearing very well, will rack once more then think about adding something to help clear it.




Patience Doug 

Mine is clearing well - still has some cloudiness to it - but not bad - I can see through it.

I vacuum rack mine around 18-20Hg - so It has been degassed well...

It smells great and tastes good too....


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Oct 8, 2012)

Can't see thru mine, next racking will also degass and add some sulfates. BTW, the Rougon is still bubbling pretty good, kinda freaky, but it is clear.


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 8, 2012)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> Can't see thru mine, next racking will also degass and add some sulfates. BTW, the Rougon is still bubbling pretty good, kinda freaky, but it is clear.



Still fermenting? Or degassing?


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Oct 8, 2012)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Still fermenting? Or degassing?


not sure, just bubbling.
will try to post a photo.


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## Midwest Vintner (Oct 8, 2012)

You can get away with a 3.7 pH if you drink the wine in less than 2 years, IMO. I would still add some tartaric acid though as just .15-.2 drop will not change the flavor too much. Further, the taste may change at first, but then mellow with age. I could see dropping down to 3.5-3.55 even. Many of our fruit wines seemed off after adjusting acid to get them where we wanted, but after some aging, it smooths out very nicely actually.

IMO, knowing the wine type and adjusting to a good pH has always worked well for me. If a wine seems slightly more acidic to taste during testing, that's not a deal breaker. The taste will mellow with aging. It all depends on how much aging you want to do and what type/flavor profile you are looking to create within that age range.


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 8, 2012)

Midwest Vintner said:


> You can get away with a 3.7 pH if you drink the wine in less than 2 years, IMO. I would still add some tartaric acid though as just .15-.2 drop will not change the flavor too much. Further, the taste may change at first, but then mellow with age. I could see dropping down to 3.5-3.55 even. Many of our fruit wines seemed off after adjusting acid to get them where we wanted, but after some aging, it smooths out very nicely actually.
> 
> IMO, knowing the wine type and adjusting to a good pH has always worked well for me. If a wine seems slightly more acidic to taste during testing, that's not a deal breaker. The taste will mellow with aging. It all depends on how much aging you want to do and what type/flavor profile you are looking to create within that age range.



Good points - I am probably going to age close to a year in the carboy - then bottle it - let it again another 6-9 months.

So I will probably add a little TA - try to drop the PH under 3.60..


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 10, 2012)

Ok - so i adjusted the chemistry:

TA = 7.3 g/l
PH = 3.56

I like this better than before - I can live with this...


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Oct 11, 2012)

Here is what is going on with mine, Rougon still bubbling away and Chardonell just starting to clear.


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 11, 2012)

MLF or degassing would be my guess...


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