# New or used barrel?



## NJwinemaker (Aug 22, 2012)

I am in the market for a barrel. Should I buy a used barrel from a local winery, or buy new? Does anyone have recommendation from websites they have used that are safe and reliable to purchase barrels?


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## shoebiedoo (Aug 22, 2012)

Some of that depends on why your looking to get a barrel. If you're looking to add oak flavor to your wine, a used one will not suit your needs as it will have become inert. IMHO that is not necessarily a bad thing. Micro oxygenation can really only be accomplished from barrel ageing. Oak on the other hand can be done through other means. I personally would like to purchase a used, Inert barrel to age my wine in and get the oak flavor from cubes and such.


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## robie (Aug 22, 2012)

shoebiedoo said:


> Some of that depends on why your looking to get a barrel. If you're looking to add oak flavor to your wine, a used one will not suit your needs as it will have become inert. IMHO that is not necessarily a bad thing. Micro oxygenation can really only be accomplished from barrel ageing. Oak on the other hand can be done through other means. I personally would like to purchase a used, Inert barrel to age my wine in and get the oak flavor from cubes and such.



I agree about a neutral barrel being a good thing. I like them as much for the concentration as for the M.O. I can't wait until my barrels become neutral. I can always add oak cubes, spirals to the neutral barrel.


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## shoebiedoo (Aug 22, 2012)

I think if I could find some, I'd buy them in a heart beat


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## Runningwolf (Aug 22, 2012)

Presque Isle Wine Cellars has been selling them all summer for $50.


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Presque Isle Wine Cellars has been selling them all summer for $50.


 
What volume barrel, Dan? I know it is a good price at any volume but I only need a max 25 gallon. Thanks.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 22, 2012)

Rocky said:


> What volume barrel, Dan? I know it is a good price at any volume but I only need a max 25 gallon. Thanks.


 They are all the 59 gallon barrels. I would grab anything under 30 myself if we had them.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 22, 2012)

robie said:


> I agree about a neutral barrel being a good thing. I like them as much for the concentration as for the M.O. I can't wait until my barrels become neutral. I can always add oak cubes, spirals to the neutral barrel.


What you say is pretty funny. Most people buy new barrels and hope they never become neutral. Maybe you overstated the point. LOL 
Malvina


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## robie (Aug 22, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> What you say is pretty funny. Most people buy new barrels and hope they never become neutral. Maybe you overstated the point. LOL
> Malvina


 

Funny? Overstated the point?

You have no idea why I said what I did in that post. You have no idea what and why I have a specific need for a couple neutral barrels.
(And you didn't ask.)

With what size barrels do you typically work?


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## Rocky (Aug 22, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> They are all the 59 gallon barrels. I would grab anything under 30 myself if we had them.


 
That is too big for my operation, Dan. Thanks.

Many years ago it might have been something that I would consider but, heck, back then we were buying whiskey barrels from Schenley Distillery for 5 or 10 bucks (and they still had that much whiskey left in them!) Also, "back then" a working man was making $100 a week and was happy to have the job.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 22, 2012)

robie said:


> Funny? Overstated the point?
> 
> You have no idea why I said what I did in that post. You have no idea what and why I have a specific need for a couple neutral barrels.
> (And you didn't ask.)
> ...



No I don't have any idea you are right about that. But the Op asked a question if he should buy a new barrel and that was your answer. The fact is the best wines and the most expensive wines are put in NEW OAK or at least one year old oak. With the exception of Pinot Noir where you might like less extraction most winemakers are not looking forward to having barrels go neutral after spending a lot of money on new oak. So yes I think it is funny that you can't wait for them to go neutral. oak Spirals and oak additives while useful are not a replacement of oak extraction in a barrel that can provide that on its own. Besides extraction there are many issues you can face buying a used barrel which you seem to over look in telling the Op besides your distaste for oak. Buying a used barrel is a very risky thing to do. I would not do it. I would not risk my wine in one of them. I have seen too many used barrels sold that should have been used for planters not wine.

Malvina


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## pioneergirl (Aug 23, 2012)

*Would you recommend a used whiskey barrel?*

I saw someone mention whiskey barrels above. Now, would a person recommend the purchase of a used whiskey barrel to "age" wine in? There's a distillery in neighboring state that my hubby has purchased a used 5 gal barrel to impart into his whiskey porter ale. It smells awfully strong and that is why I have not explored this avenue. Experiences? If so, too much whiskey odor or flavor? Or do you just "clean" the heck out of it? (which we've done, and it still smells strongly of whiskey).


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 23, 2012)

pioneergirl said:


> I saw someone mention whiskey barrels above. Now, would a person recommend the purchase of a used whiskey barrel to "age" wine in? There's a distillery in neighboring state that my hubby has purchased a used 5 gal barrel to impart into his whiskey porter ale. It smells awfully strong and that is why I have not explored this avenue. Experiences? If so, too much whiskey odor or flavor? Or do you just "clean" the heck out of it? (which we've done, and it still smells strongly of whiskey).



Using whiskey barrels are an old tradition with immigrant winemakers. First they are cheap and available. On a positive note, they unlike used wine barrels are free of bacteria and spoilage organisms. But besides being charred not just toasted, they are full of whiskey in the pores of the staves. No amount of cleaning will remove the taste they impart least of all the odor. If you care about your wine and you can't afford a new barrel use oak additives in a carboy or investigate Flex Tanks which micro oxidize as a barrel does. The original poster here asked if he should buy a new or used barrel. Used barrels are sold all the time to commercial wineries. These barrels are treated carefully with special treatments and methods before being sold and the winery has a reputation to up hold as they are always rotating and selling barrels off. Or the barrels are sold flushed with Argon, delivered to the next winery and filled in a short period of time. Unlike the unknown origins of used barrels sold by LHBS. There is no history you can rely on. They can be infected with Brettanomyces, Acetobacter, Ethyl Acetate and who knows what else. You would have little way of knowing. Amateur Winemakers would do themselves a very big favor avoiding using them at all costs. Also be very suspect of Barrels that are advertised as reconditioned. The only reconditioned barrel I would use is by Recoop.net 

M&M Grape Company sells Vadai Hungarian and French Oak Barrels in small formats they are not that expensive and if treated carefully will last for years. Gibbs Brothers sells American oak barrels which are also reasonable.
Malvina


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> *Using whiskey barrels are an old tradition with immigrant winemakers. First they are cheap and available. On a positive note, they unlike used wine barrels are free of bacteria and spoilage organisms. But besides being charred not just toasted, they are full of whiskey in the pores of the staves. No amount of cleaning will remove the taste they impart least of all the odor.* If you care about your wine and you can't afford a new barrel use oak additives in a carboy or investigate Flex Tanks which micro oxidize as a barrel does. The original poster here asked if he should buy a new or used barrel. Used barrels are sold all the time to commercial wineries. These barrels are treated carefully with special treatments and methods before being sold and the winery has a reputation to up hold as they are always rotating and selling barrels off. Or the barrels are sold flushed with Argon, delivered to the next winery and filled in a short period of time. Unlike the unknown origins of used barrels sold by LHBS. There is no history you can rely on. They can be infected with Brettanomyces, Acetobacter, Ethyl Acetate and who knows what else. You would have little way of knowing. Amateur Winemakers would do themselves a very big favor avoiding using them at all costs. Also be very suspect of Barrels that are advertised as reconditioned. The only reconditioned barrel I would use is by Recoop.net
> 
> M&M Grape Company sells Vadai Hungarian and French Oak Barrels in small formats they are not that expensive and if treated carefully will last for years. Gibbs Brothers sells American oak barrels which are also reasonable.
> Malvina


 
Malvina's comments on the whiskey barrels are accurate. I was referring to when we made wine at home many, many years ago (late 1940's & early 1950's). We ususally made 5 of these barrels a year and, yes, there was an additional taste imparted to the wine. The grapes we used were either Zinfandel or Alicante (depending on the quality of that particular year) mixed 3 to 1 with Muscat. We were not going for a vintage wine! This was an Italian table wine that adults drank with just about every meal but breakfast, although my Grandfather would hit it while he was digging the garden, regardless of the time of day! We kids used to get some at dinner that was mostly water, until we were about 13 and then we got a real glass. This, of course, does not count the wine we were able to purloin when the adults were not looking.


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## robie (Aug 24, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> No I don't have any idea you are right about that. But the Op asked a question if he should buy a new barrel and that was your answer. The fact is the best wines and the most expensive wines are put in NEW OAK or at least one year old oak. With the exception of Pinot Noir where you might like less extraction most winemakers are not looking forward to having barrels go neutral after spending a lot of money on new oak. So yes I think it is funny that you can't wait for them to go neutral. oak Spirals and oak additives while useful are not a replacement of oak extraction in a barrel that can provide that on its own. Besides extraction there are many issues you can face buying a used barrel which you seem to over look in telling the Op besides your distaste for oak. Buying a used barrel is a very risky thing to do. I would not do it. I would not risk my wine in one of them. I have seen too many used barrels sold that should have been used for planters not wine.
> 
> Malvina



Oh!
(I am responding late because I was not available yesterday.)

I recommend you re-read my posts. I don't recall telling anyone or recommending that anyone ever buy a used oak barrel. 

As far as the thread's main question, I think the question was whether to buy a new or used barrel. 

Did I say I had a distaste for oak? I don't recall saying that, either. 

My post was a direct response to the post just above it, as having referenced it should indicate. (It was not off-topic, although I can't say that for THIS post).

You never answered my question concerning barrel size, either, but that's OK, it doesn't matter at this point. 

You know, likely half or much more of the people on this forum make kit wines. Some of us make both. Many have never made wine from fresh/frozen grapes. Most likely would like to, but many may never. That's a thought you might want to keep in mind.

Some new question(s) - Was your response to me in relation to kits or fresh/frozen grapes? Have you ever made a 6-gallon kit wine? How about even a 6-gallon juice bucket wine? Many of each? 

I ask these (not really expecting answers) because the application of an oak barrel, though having common considerations, just might present some additional, different considerations for kits and/or such small quantities of even fresh/frozen wine. I don't think you took this under consideration.

I have followed pretty much every post you have ever made on this forum. I must say you really know your stuff about fresh/frozen grape wine making, specifically and in generally. I doubt there are many technical questions you can't answer or at least can't readily find the answer. For this I have a lot of respect for you and always look forward to your responses. 

I think the exception is kit wines and possibly very small batches of fresh/frozen. Kits require a whole different set of considerations and I think most of your posts do not consider this. That's OK.

Was the person who started the thread asking the question, because he/she wants to make fresh/frozen grape wine or wine from a kit? Neither of us really know what the intended purpose is. They didn't say and I am sorry I didn't ask, as it might have saved us all a lot of typing, had we known specifically.

I don't care to argue with you. I'll just end any further response to this off-topic discussion with saying neutral barrels have a special place in kit and very small batch wine making. No reason to even bother explaining it at this point, since we don't know it it is even relevant.

I apologize to the person who originated this thread for having gotten away from the intended topic.

Back on topic:
I would be very careful buying a used barrel. I guess if you know the winery well and how exactly the barrel has been used and when it was last used, you might consider it, but I personally doubt I would ever take the chance. 

Other than that, they do make nice furniture and planters.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 24, 2012)

As I said used barrels are treacherous for Amateur Winemakers regardless of the intended use including kits. That is the best advice I can give. I think you are insulted that it struck me as humorous you can't wait for a barrel to go neutral. I hope mine never do. 
If that is the consideration you think I should have it is misplaced. I am sure your small neutral barrels are healthy. 

You are correct I have no interest in Kit wine. However sound wine making practices still apply and some very creative techniques have been used to improve Kit Wine. Bzac once a member here was an expert in the arena. 

You did ask me about barrel sizes I use but I didn't answer because I didn't see the importance of the size of my barrels with the question about used barrels. To satisfy your curiosity I use mostly 59s and 30s with an additional few 15s. Are your new questions designed to draw me into the controversy about Kit Winemakers and Fresh Grape Winemakers? If so I am not biting. 

Anyone can see your post here is riddled with sarcasm and anger towards me but I am really not sure why. 

Malvina


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## shoebiedoo (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm just going to walk away from this thread.....sorry I even interjected as I can see I'm not worthy


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