# Elderberry Blackberry - comments on recipe please



## Stressbaby (Nov 15, 2015)

I have 12# blackberries and 8# elderberries left in the freezer. I'm going to ferment them together, first try at an "elderblack" wine.

I see lots of recipes using 1:1 ratio of elderberry to blackberry, 2# each, total of 4# fruit/gallon. I have 20# of fruit here, so my main question is, is this enough fruit? Can I get a good wine from this amount of fruit using a 3:2 ratio of elderberries to blackberries? Or do I need to aim for 3-4 gallon batch?

Recipe would be something like this:
12# blackberries
8# elderberries
5 bananas
5t pectic
Calcium Carbonate to pH 3.4-3.5 if pH is low
Tartaric:Citric 2:1 or so if pH is high
OptiRed
1c heavy toast American oak chips
Fermaid K and GoFerm

Thaw fruit, then add berries and chopped bananas to 16.5q water,* bring to boil, then short simmer.** Add 1/4tsp kmeta. 12 hours later, when cool, adjust pH, add pectic and OptiRed. 12 hours after that, put the bucket into the fridge for a 3 day cold soak.** 3 days later, bring it out, let it warm up, add the oak chips, and pitch the yeast. Step feed nutrients, usual care thereafter.

*Guestimate based on the volume of my straight-juice blackberry and prior batches of elderberry.

**Have done both the simmer and the cold soak on elderberry with great success in limiting the green goo and setting the color.

Fruit is still in the freezer, so I'm not committed to anything at this point. Thoughts welcome.

Robert


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## WVMountaineerJack (Nov 15, 2015)

No need to boil the blackberries. IMO the boiled elderberry dont taste as good as the raw ones in a wine, green goo is easy to clean so we dont worry about it, EB and BB are a very good combo and with the oak is going to be good. WVMJ


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## Julie (Nov 15, 2015)

I won't cook the fruit, you are taking a chance on the wine not clearing. I think you should go for 5 gallons. That oak is going to give it a real nice finish.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 15, 2015)

Jack and Julie, thanks for the replies. I will not boil the fruit. I will post pics and progress here.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Nov 16, 2015)

I was thinking this is enough fruit for a 3 gallon batch. The cold soak also not really needed, you might end up extracting to much bitterness from the blackberry seeds, thaw, crush, KM, Pectinase, mix up everything else and innoc your starter. Do boil the bannanners with skins on after they go black, cool and add to must. What yeast are you planning on using? For this Pasteur Red, K1V1116 have worked well for us. WVMJ


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## Stressbaby (Nov 16, 2015)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> I was thinking this is enough fruit for a 3 gallon batch. The cold soak also not really needed, you might end up extracting to much bitterness from the blackberry seeds, thaw, crush, KM, Pectinase, mix up everything else and innoc your starter. Do boil the bannanners with skins on after they go black, cool and add to must. What yeast are you planning on using? For this Pasteur Red, K1V1116 have worked well for us. WVMJ



After thinking about it, I'd rather assure myself 3 gal of quality wine than risk getting 5 gal of something thin that I don't like...3 gallons it is. 

K1-V1116 is what I've used for most of my elderberry wines, that is what I was thinking of using.


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## wineforfun (Nov 16, 2015)

I agree with the 3 gal. batch. I just started another batch of elderberry and used 5.5# per gal.
Never used K1-1116 with my elderberry. I usually use Pasteur Red.


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## Arne (Nov 17, 2015)

wineforfun said:


> I agree with the 3 gal. batch. I just started another batch of elderberry and used 5.5# per gal.
> Never used K1-1116 with my elderberry. I usually use Pasteur Red.



Billies Berries?? Let us know how it comes out. Arne.


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## wineforfun (Nov 17, 2015)

Arne said:


> Billies Berries?? Let us know how it comes out. Arne.



Yes sir. Went with Pasteur Red, same as I used with yours. Running everything pretty much the same. Racked into secondary a little over a week ago. Should be "dry" shortly.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 18, 2015)

Anyone concerned pressing this when moving to secondary?


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## wineforfun (Nov 18, 2015)

Stressbaby said:


> Anyone concerned pressing this when moving to secondary?



What does that mean?


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## Stressbaby (Nov 18, 2015)

This wine will be fermented on the 20# of fruit. I'm looking for thoughts on lightly pressing that fruit upon moving to secondary, to add that pressed juice to what would otherwise just be free run.


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## wineforfun (Nov 18, 2015)

Stressbaby said:


> This wine will be fermented on the 20# of fruit. I'm looking for thoughts on lightly pressing that fruit upon moving to secondary, to add that pressed juice to what would otherwise just be free run.



Is the fruit just laying in there? or is it in a bag? If not in a bag, I have no experience.

Whenever I use fruit it goes into a mesh bag. I just racked over my elderberry last weekend and gave the bag a few very good squeezes to get all the juice I could out of them. I didn't want to leave any more behind than I had too.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 18, 2015)

It is not in a bag. I'm letting my fruit roam freely. 

When I've used a bag, I have done what you do, squeeze it by hand. However, I don't think that yields as much as a press. Judging from your avatar, though, maybe you get more from squeezing the bag than I do. LOL


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## wineforfun (Nov 18, 2015)

Stressbaby said:


> It is not in a bag. I'm letting my fruit roam freely.
> 
> When I've used a bag, I have done what you do, squeeze it by hand. However, I don't think that yields as much as a press. Judging from your avatar, though, maybe you get more from squeezing the bag than I do. LOL



haha
Yeah, maybe. 

I usually squeeze the bag a few times throughout fermentation and then yes, squeeze the $%^@ out of it before removing it and transferring to secondary.


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## Arne (Nov 18, 2015)

wineforfun said:


> haha
> Yeah, maybe.
> 
> I usually squeeze the bag a few times throughout fermentation and then yes, squeeze the $%^@ out of it before removing it and transferring to secondary.



You really ought to make a little trough, put the fruit in it and roll that marble you are carrying around down the trough. That ought to press it a bit. LOL, Arne.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 18, 2015)

OK, well the wine is underway. I took 2 pieces of advice but didn't take the third... 

I went with a 3 gal batch and I didn't boil the fruit. I did simmer the bananas and strain the banana water into the primary. Made a WAG on sugar to start with and wound up low at 1.064 so will need a little extra sugar. I'm going for a short cold maceration because in my opinion the color seems a little light. I'm taking my chances with the seed bitterness issue because of the color, but I like my odds because I've done it with blackberry before without any trouble. 

The pH was 3.74, adjusted with 1t tartaric and 1/2t citric acids to 3.53.


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## Arne (Nov 19, 2015)

Stressbaby said:


> OK, well the wine is underway. I took 2 pieces of advice but didn't take the third...
> 
> I went with a 3 gal batch and I didn't boil the fruit. I did simmer the bananas and strain the banana water into the primary. Made a WAG on sugar to start with and wound up low at 1.064 so will need a little extra sugar. I'm going for a short cold maceration because in my opinion the color seems a little light. I'm taking my chances with the seed bitterness issue because of the color, but I like my odds because I've done it with blackberry before without any trouble.
> 
> The pH was 3.74, adjusted with 1t tartaric and 1/2t citric acids to 3.53.



Keep us informed how it goes. Arne.


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## wineforfun (Nov 19, 2015)

Arne said:


> You really ought to make a little trough, put the fruit in it and roll that marble you are carrying around down the trough. That ought to press it a bit. LOL, Arne.



Excellent advice.............if I could only find someone to lift that marble for me. hint hint


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## Arne (Nov 20, 2015)

wineforfun said:


> Excellent advice.............if I could only find someone to lift that marble for me. hint hint



LOL, anymore if I would even try and roll that marble I would wind up with Advil and bedrest. Arne.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 21, 2015)

I took the must out of the fridge yesterday to let it warm up. Prior to the cold soak it was at pH 3.53 and SG 1.064. After, 3.60 and 1.070. I wish I had a before picture, because the difference in color now is striking. Here is an after picture, much better, and no bitterness. Added another pound of sugar and pitching the yeast today.


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## Stressbaby (Dec 11, 2016)

Follow up, trying to avoid being the pot calling the kettle black here...

This wine came out great. I'm very happy with elderberry to blackberry ratio and will use that again. I used 1.2g Tannin riche, backsweetened just a bit with 35g sugar/gallon to get it to 1.001, and added a bit of vanilla which also helped to smooth it out.


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## Julie (Dec 11, 2016)

Stressbaby, do you ever think about oaking it? I use Hungarian oak in my blackberry and it is very good!


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## Stressbaby (Dec 11, 2016)

Julie said:


> Stressbaby, do you ever think about oaking it? I use Hungarian oak in my blackberry and it is very good!



You prompted me to look again at my notes, and I did oak it!

1 cup of chips in the primary and then med toast American oak cubes in secondary. Sorry for that omission!


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## Jericurl (Dec 11, 2016)

This sounds delicious. I think blackberry/elderberry is one of my favorite pairings.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Dec 11, 2016)

I like to squeeze them about a day or 2 before I am going to rack them from the primary to let some of the gunk from squeezing them settle out, if you go gorilla on the bag you are going to get a lot of stuff out that just adds to the sediment in the secondary. WVMJ






wineforfun said:


> haha
> Yeah, maybe.
> 
> I usually squeeze the bag a few times throughout fermentation and then yes, squeeze the $%^@ out of it before removing it and transferring to secondary.


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## hounddawg (Dec 15, 2016)

seems every body is to uptight to offer to sample for you, beings i am a very helpful person, I'd be happy to sample a bottle for you ,,
Dawg


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