# Anybody use wild yeast method??



## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

I am making my first batch from juice and I am following a friends family tradition of making wine the "old fashion" way. We are using wild fermentation and add no chemicals. I have had a lot if their wines and they are amazing. So it definitely works and can be done. However my wine fermentation process has been so crazy. Very little activity then all of a sudden starts up again. Ect ect. It has been fermenting since mid oct. 
10-16 s.g 1.190
11-3 s.g 1.021
11-9 s.g 1.021
Any advice would be appreciated. Eek


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

I should probably say sorry I don't have more info or readings but my wine mentors don't do it that way so neither have I. I really like the idea of no chemicals or additives.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 25, 2013)

I have a batch of wild mustang grape that is made the old way.
No yeast, just sugar, no chemicals...its been in a 3 gallon carboy since july, it has now ceased fermenting, and is clearing...
Taste very good...im leaving it as it is, and will bottle when clear.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

Ok so it's not strange that it's taking so long. It took over two weeks to start fermenting. So it has been only about a month. We had a thin towel over it initially and just now switchers to air lock. It's a 6 gallon Carboy of Italian merlot. I just love this new hobby so much. I just bought a crusher and press so we can do grapes next season!!! So scared I am going to mess it up. Ahhhhhhhhh


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## Turock (Nov 25, 2013)

It would be a good idea to give the yeast some nutrient. Lack of it is probably why the ferment is so erratic. Split the dose and pitch half of it at the beginning of the ferment and the second one before the ferment reaches the 50% dry stage. 

Ferments without nutrient can stress the yeast and produce excessive amounts of H2S--so no matter what the yeast is, it needs to be fed.


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## novalou (Nov 25, 2013)

nayrea143 said:


> I am making my first batch from juice and I am following a friends family tradition of making wine the "old fashion" way. We are using wild fermentation and add no chemicals. I have had a lot if their wines and they are amazing. So it definitely works and can be done. However my wine fermentation process has been so crazy. Very little activity then all of a sudden starts up again. Ect ect. It has been fermenting since mid oct. 10-16 s.g 1.190 11-3 s.g 1.021 11-9 s.g 1.021 Any advice would be appreciated. Eek



Your starting SG was pretty high. It's tough to fully ferment sugar that high with wine yeast, let alone wild yeast. It's probably nearly done fermenting, your wild yeast is meeting it's alcohol toxicity.

Let it finish and clear. Do NOT add nutrients now.


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## SouthernChemist (Nov 25, 2013)

You must have some pretty strong wild yeast to have fermented from ~1.190 to ~1.020. Most wild yeasts will actually give up well before then, which is one of the reasons people tend not to do it.


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## Turock (Nov 25, 2013)

Yes--I agree with what's being said. I was suggesting the nutrient for future ferments done this way--not suggesting nutrient now.

Wild yeast fermenting is always such a crap shoot because you have no idea what strains you're dealing with. All wine yeasts are actually wild yeasts that are isolated and cultured for their particular attributes. So using a 'known culture" is all that you're buying. It's not been "engineered" in the lab. This is why most of us use the known cultures, so that we can control our ferments by knowing what the requirements are of the yeast we choose.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

Thank u all for the info!!!! The people that are helping me have been doing it this way for generations. And it always turns out good. I however don't do well with the un predictability. I am trying to find a middle between the two methods. My own method  So if I do use yeast on my next batch would I have to use the other chemicals and such or can I just use the yeast to start and follow their method the rest of the way??? They also wait to rack it for the first time till a few months after. Stays in original Carboy/barrel. I think the sugar was so high bc it's straight merlot. From what I have read its a high sugar juice. And makes very strong alcohol levels. And it was a slow start but it did really start fermenting pretty good. Then slowed then started again. Driving me crazy!!!!


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

SouthernChemist said:


> You must have some pretty strong wild yeast to have fermented from ~1.190 to ~1.020. Most wild yeasts will actually give up well before then, which is one of the reasons people tend not to do it.



So if it's done it this far then it is working good right??? Just slow and inconsistent??


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## Turock (Nov 25, 2013)

It's going to have some residual sugar because an SG of 1.020 is about 6 brix. 

I don't like unpredictability either. When using an unknown, wild culture you just have no idea of alcohol tolerance and if it's going to handle the brix of the grapes. Like I said--it's such a crap shoot. The wild yeast probably died from alcohol toxicity, which is why it didn't finish to dry.

I think you have to do things the way you want to. There's nothing saying that you can't make as good a wine as your friends by using known cultures. You might be surprised--yours may turn out just like theirs or even better. 

I'm always confused when people say they don't want to use "chemicals" in their wines. The only chemical is meta. Pectic enzyme, nutrient are natural substances. You might want to get yourself some real good books on red winemaking. MoreWine has a good one. Reading about nutrients, ferments and such is a good idea too and Scott Labs has their Fermentation Handbook online that you can read. Lallemand also has an excellent site that will give you alot of the chemistry behind winemaking. With some more "education" you can make a decision on how to procede with your winemaking in the future.

There are some grapes that are low in nitrogen. Not sure if Merlot is one of them because I don't work with that grape. But it's important to know the characteristics of the grapes or fruits you work with so that you can provide them with what they need to make the ferment go smoothly. Nutrient provides nitrogen and makes the yeast more tolerant to alcohol. So understanding the additions used in winemaking will make your wines much better and without problems.

High brix grapes need a yeast that will tolerate the potential alcohol. You might find it interesting that Lalvin has a yeast for grapes like Merlot that has aromas of black cherry, berry and cherry cola in red wines. Boy, that sounds good!! It's L2226 yeast.

Yes--I would just let this bulk age and clear. Don't try manipulating it any more.


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## jjduen (Nov 25, 2013)

I have been doing a Concord via natural method. 

The vineyard/winery owner told me to leave the skins in during fermentation and to flip them over every three days till fermentation stops. 

The ferment started off very slow and then gradually picked up speed. I racked after four weeks and letting the wine age. Initial taste was excellent like drinking a Concord grape fresh off the vine. 

End gravity before racking was .990


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## SouthernChemist (Nov 25, 2013)

One other thing that people tend to forget is that yeast produce a fair number of molecules during fermentation, including things like SO2, and they chemically manipulate (intentionally or otherwise) compounds already present. That's really where the magic comes from over time.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 25, 2013)

If I get lucky, I can also catch a fastball barehanded and shift without depressing the clutch. But why would I _want_ to?


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

This forum is so wonderful!!! You guys are all great!!! I think I will get some books and maybe use the yeast next time. I just wasn't sure if I would have to use potassium sorbate and metabisulphite and those cap tablets and ect. Some instructions have u add sugar too. I like the idea of using the yeast just not the sulfites and all. Wasn't sure if I could pick and choose. My juice is still fermenting now so I am hoping it will get down to a nice dry wine. Their is still some bubbles on top and still bubbles coming through the air lock. Fingers crossed!!!! I guess I should get another reading to check that it's still dropping. Yes?? Or just leave it??


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

sour_grapes said:


> If I get lucky, I can also catch a fastball barehanded and shift without depressing the clutch. But why would I want to?



Ha ha ha yes I get it. But I was following a friends and their wine is always delicious!!! They do it by listening to it and tasting. Lol. But I am not as relaxed as them and I kinda find this method frustrating.


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## Turock (Nov 25, 2013)

Well, you should get used to the idea of using sulfite or you'll find you end up losing alot of wine to oxidation. The only way to avoid it is to drink the wine up quickly. Sulfiting should always be done in accordance to the PH of the wine--the higher the PH, the more sulfite you need.

Sorbate is only used if you sweeten the wine--dry wines don't need it. If you sweeten and don't add sorbate, the wine will referment because of the remaining yeast cells and blow the corks. The wine will be fizzy, also.

Many of the things you eat and drink have sulfites or some level of preservation in them. If they didn't, we'd all be awash in bacteria and molds. Even hand cream needs preservatives or else you'd have to keep it refrigerated to prevent mold growth. No need to over-sulfite. But proper levels are very important, after all the work and expense you go thru to produce a wine.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

Turock said:


> Well, you should get used to the idea of using sulfite or you'll find you end up losing alot of wine to oxidation. The only way to avoid it is to drink the wine up quickly. Sulfiting should always be done in accordance to the PH of the wine--the higher the PH, the more sulfite you need. Sorbate is only used if you sweeten the wine--dry wines don't need it. If you sweeten and don't add sorbate, the wine will referment because of the remaining yeast cells and blow the corks. The wine will be fizzy, also. Many of the things you eat and drink have sulfites or some level of preservation in them. If they didn't, we'd all be awash in bacteria and molds. Even hand cream needs preservatives or else you'd have to keep it refrigerated to prevent mold growth. No need to over-sulfite. But proper levels are very important, after all the work and expense you go thru to produce a wine.



I was worried about that initially too!!! But my friends assure me their wine stays just fine and they don't add anything??!!!! How can that be then??? I am so confused.


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## Turock (Nov 25, 2013)

Well, how long do they keep the wine around after bottling?

All I can tell you is my experience with this. WAY back--when we were new winemakers and had little knowledge under our hats--we were VERY stingy with adding sulfites. And after those wines were bottled, we'd open them and they'd have the nutty flavor of oxidation. As time went on, the nutty flavor became the harsh "metal" flavor of bad oxidation. We tossed many wines because of this.

After doing more study, and talking to members of other wine forums where the members were very strong on wine science, we started understanding the science of sulfite. We've never had oxidized wines after that. You have to understand that the PH and alcohol content is what protects the wine to some degree--but wine still needs sulfite for preservation, including when it is bulk aged for long time periods.

Don't fear sulfite--it's your friend when used in proper amounts. And you should always sulfite your must in order to knock down the bacterial growth, as this can lead to sluggish or stuck ferments. Of course, if you're using wild yeast, you don't want to do that or you stun them and they might have a hard time getting going. But this is why you have to come up with you're own plan. 

Acetobacter bacteria--which is the bacteria that produces vinegar--is EVERYWHERE. Including on the skin of grapes. Birds sit and poop on grapes. If you ask me, I'd rather have the sulfite on the must and then use a known culture!! And sulfite needs to be used on everthing that touches the wine--or you risk vinegar production again.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 25, 2013)

Turock said:


> Well, how long do they keep the wine around after bottling? All I can tell you is my experience with this. WAY back--when we were new winemakers and had little knowledge under our hats--we were VERY stingy with adding sulfites. And after those wines were bottled, we'd open them and they'd have the nutty flavor of oxidation. As time went on, the nutty flavor became the harsh "metal" flavor of bad oxidation. We tossed many wines because of this. After doing more study, and talking to members of other wine forums where the members were very strong on wine science, we started understanding the science of sulfite. We've never had oxidized wines after that. You have to understand that the PH and alcohol content is what protects the wine to some degree--but wine still needs sulfite for preservation, including when it is bulk aged for long time periods. Don't fear sulfite--it's your friend when used in proper amounts. And you should always sulfite your must in order to knock down the bacterial growth, as this can lead to sluggish or stuck ferments. Of course, if you're using wild yeast, you don't want to do that or you stun them and they might have a hard time getting going. But this is why you have to come up with you're own plan. Acetobacter bacteria--which is the bacteria that produces vinegar--is EVERYWHERE. Including on the skin of grapes. Birds sit and poop on grapes. If you ask me, I'd rather have the sulfite on the must and then use a known culture!! And sulfite needs to be used on everthing that touches the wine--or you risk vinegar production again.



They leave theirs bulk age for at least a year then bottle. Always saving some from each year longer in the bottles. Their wine is very strong. Yeah I think that's a good way use sulfate and yeast but nothing else. It's just that u hear so much about how the sulfites In the wine are bad. And that this way is so pure and old fashion. Slow and steady u know?! He he


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 26, 2013)

nayrea143,
Making wine without using any commercial yeast and chemicals has been done for far longer than we can imagine, I have no doubt that following your mentors instructions that you'll make a great wine. 
I have a buddy that has been making wine for over 20 yrs like that, I would drink his wine and it would always be great, but oddly enough, as soon as I brought some of his wine home, within a week, the wine would spoil. 

This was very puzzling to me until I started thinking about it, whatever combination of temperature, lighting, and most important, the fact that his bottles were all sealed; all of these factors could have lead to the a perfect storage environment, once they were opened, nature took its normal course and the spoilage organisms that had been relatively dormant now woke up with the introduction of oxygen and caused the wine to spoil - fast.

My buddy had been making at least 100 gallons of wine or more a year this way, he had grown so accustomed to his wine that he didn't realize that most of it had become oxidized and tasted like sherry, I've heard this called "cellar palate", when you always drink your own wine, seldom drinking a commercial wine that your wine is the only wine that tastes good, and any faults now are just "the way my wine tastes".

Once I persuaded my buddy to use select commercial strains of yeast and to start to stabilize his wine with Potassium Metabisulfite, his wine has improved 10 fold, he has dumped hundreds of gallons of oxidized wine from his past wine making ventures and is now amazed just how good his wine is.
He can even recreate a wine if he really likes the way it turns out, when you rely on wild yeasts, there is no way to replicate a batch of wine, you are at the mercy of the wild yeast, not to mention if the wild yeast is an undesirable strain that will bring out negative characteristics associated with that particular strain of yeast.

Most of us only add the bare minimum sulfite necessary to stabilize the wine, no one wants any more than is absolutely necessary.
I wish you luck, keep us posted!


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## ShawnDTurner (Nov 26, 2013)

Well said Tom. Basic wine knowledge that everyone should know!


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## nayrea143 (Nov 26, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> nayrea143, Making wine without using any commercial yeast and chemicals has been done for far longer than we can imagine, I have no doubt that following your mentors instructions that you'll make a great wine. I have a buddy that has been making wine for over 20 yrs like that, I would drink his wine and it would always be great, but oddly enough, as soon as I brought some of his wine home, within a week, the wine would spoil. This was very puzzling to me until I started thinking about it, whatever combination of temperature, lighting, and most important, the fact that his bottles were all sealed; all of these factors could have lead to the a perfect storage environment, once they were opened, nature took its normal course and the spoilage organisms that had been relatively dormant now woke up with the introduction of oxygen and caused the wine to spoil - fast. My buddy had been making at least 100 gallons of wine or more a year this way, he had grown so accustomed to his wine that he didn't realize that most of it had become oxidized and tasted like sherry, I've heard this called "cellar palate", when you always drink your own wine, seldom drinking a commercial wine that your wine is the only wine that tastes good, and any faults now are just "the way my wine tastes". Once I persuaded my buddy to use select commercial strains of yeast and to start to stabilize his wine with Potassium Metabisulfite, his wine has improved 10 fold, he has dumped hundreds of gallons of oxidized wine from his past wine making ventures and is now amazed just how good his wine is. He can even recreate a wine if he really likes the way it turns out, when you rely on wild yeasts, there is no way to replicate a batch of wine, you are at the mercy of the wild yeast, not to mention if the wild yeast is an undesirable strain that will bring out negative characteristics associated with that particular strain of yeast. Most of us only add the bare minimum sulfite necessary to stabilize the wine, no one wants any more than is absolutely necessary. I wish you luck, keep us posted!



Thank u so much for all this wonderful information. What u have said was very insightful and rather eye opening for me. Perhaps I should reconsider. I am a little intimidated by all the math formulas and chemicals. But I am sure with some research I could figure it out. I am so in live with this new wine making venture I want to be good at it and am willing to do the work. Example. I made this batch from juice and within a week bough a huge crusher and press for next time. I am worried that I won't go through the wine as fast as they do and that cellars palate could totally be me!!!!!! I just really liked the idea of keeping it old school but perhaps in this instance new improvements will make better wine. And that's what matters most!!!!! Seriously thank u guys!!!!! My mentors have no clue when I mention my sg reading or cultured yeast. They just keep telling me listen to it and wait. Lol lol.


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## Turock (Nov 26, 2013)

Pumpkinman---That was an excellent post!


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## Turock (Nov 26, 2013)

You often hear that sulfites cause headaches. But this is not the case. I researched this one time and found that the reason some people get headaches or stuffy nose from red wines is because red grapes contain ALOT of histamine. Different varieties contain differing amounts. But some grapes can have thousands of PPM of histamine. White grapes contain much less histamine.

So sulfite takes the rap for something that it is innocent of. Don't believe everything you hear about sulfite. Do your own research to find the truth.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 26, 2013)

Turock and pumkinman...gave you excellent advise..actually its excellent for all of us...great replys from both........
Its so easy to learn, when you have good teachers....Thanks.

nayrea143, there is so much knowledge here,you cant fail, if you follow a recipe and ask questions when your stumped....
glad you like the hobby,are is it passion...btw...you will have plenty of friends to help drink your wine, you will not get,a cellars palate


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## Turock (Nov 26, 2013)

By the way--don't be intimidated. I know the learning curve seems steep. But we all feel that way when we are starting to learn ANYTHING. But you learn one thing at a time--and eventually your brain starts wrapping itself around the science and you begin understanding WHY you're doing WHAT you're doing.

And all of us here will help you. Just ask.


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## BernardSmith (Nov 26, 2013)

nayrea143 said:


> Ha ha ha yes I get it. But I was following a friends and their wine is always delicious!!! They do it by listening to it and tasting. Lol. But I am not as relaxed as them and I kinda find this method frustrating.



Hi Nayrea, But there is also one other element that is important. You say your friends have been making wine using wild yeasts for some time. That suggests to me that they have albeit accidentally and without intention, "cultivated" certain strains of wild yeasts (in the same way that bakeries have far more useful sourdough yeasts in the locale than I would have). It may be that much of the source of their yeast is not simply on their fruit but in their tools and containers and even in the spaces they live. One suggestion I would make is that you begin your prep or even the fermentation in their environment and once your must has begun to ferment you bring it over to your place.


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## Turock (Nov 26, 2013)

Very true. The dominant yeast--or the one you use the most of--becomes a resident in the winery and sometimes you get spontainious ferments because of the resident yeast.

You said their wine is "strong tasting." Might be the characteristic of the wild yeast, combined with a higher alcohol content.

There are SO many very good cultures for reds that produce softer flavors and enhance fruit characteristics. I think if you try some of these, you'll be amazed at the difference. All of our big reds have excellent flavor, and are nice and smooth even when left as dry wines. Even our friends, who don't like dry wines, can't believe how good some of these wines are. I'm just not so sure I'd like to have that wild culture permeate my winery. It's a decision you'll have to make.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 26, 2013)

Thank u thank u thank u!!!! U guys are so knowledgable. U are really expanding my thinking. I could read this over and over!!!! I didn't really realize how the yeast itself changes the characteristics of the wine!!! Mind blown!!!!! Lol


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## Turock (Nov 26, 2013)

By the way--in all this conversation--we've never asked you what grapes your friends use. Based on that, we can suggest different cultures for you to explore for more info, and maybe try next year so you can come up with your own style.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 26, 2013)

They use different ones usually and then they blend them a bit too. Always big reds. I did Italian merlot this time. I am going to do Chilean cab/sav or maybe Pinot in the spring from grapes. Can't wait!!!! Any suggestions on books for me ????


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## Turock (Nov 26, 2013)

Yes--there are 2 books that you should find very useful. Both of these books are on www.MoreWine.com The first one is their Guide to Red Winemaking. The second one is authored by Dan Pambianchi ( the revered "god" of winemaking science) and is called Techniques in Home Winemaking. If you order these books from MoreWine, ask for their Catalog--you'll be able to read about all the fine cultures they sell for the grapes you want to work with.

Just a little warning about Pinot Noir. This grape is terrible (in my opinion) done in fruit style. It's flavor is strange and also harsh. It really needs to have an MLF performed on it, which is a secondary fermentation done with a bacteria to convert the malic acid to lactic acid. Much reading should be done on this before attempting for the first time. Google "MLF" and you'll find substancial white papers written on it. Print the instructions--read them over a few times--and follow them exactly if/when attempting it for the first time. I have quite a few MLF's under my belt, as do others on here, so we can help if you decide to make a Pinot Noir. 

However, there's another school of thought that it's best to perfect your primary winemaking skills first--learning how to make a great wine--THEN going to MLF. Acid adjustment, TA adjustment is also something you should study over winter because of the grapes you're using.

We make Cab and Pinot Noir but it's always juice, so we don't have the extreme adjusting of the juice since most of that is already done. But with the grapes--you need to know what you're doing with them, especially if performing MLF because you have some acid limits to take into consideration. Also nitrogen requirements of these kinds of grapes. It would be good to go into the "wine from grapes" thread on this forum and talk with people who commonly work with these grapes. Also there are extreme experts on these grapes at the West Chester wine club (I think they're in New Jersey) that you can Google. When those guys talk--my head hurts. They have a forum online. I just don't work with the varieties of grapes that they do. And all of our knowledge is limited to what we commonly work with.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 27, 2013)

Thank u again! I will def wait in the Pinot grapes. And I have looked up the info and books. They are great!!!! Still intimidating and confusing but I will get it. I am going to try to keep it as simple as possible for now. But I will be using yeast and sulfite next time. So glad I found this app!!!!! I am going to finger lakes on a few weeks for a wine tasting and turning 20 plus wineries. I can't wait to see and learn some more!!!


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## Turock (Nov 27, 2013)

Now THAT is a real good idea!!! Go to the wineries and taste their wines done in the grapes your friends work with. While at the winery, don't hesitate to ask them about the cultures they use,etc. Many times, the pourers there won't know--and alot of BS talk goes on from these people so don't believe EVERYTHING the pourers tell you. But if the winery owner is around--THAT'S the guy to talk with.

I know I'm throwing alot of "stuff" at you and I apologize for that--I don't want to overwhelm you. We all learn as we go--we don't learn 25 years of winemaking in one year.

Getting ferments under your belt is a great way to get some wisdom. You don't have to wait for grape season for this either. Did you ever consider fruit wines? Easy to get going on that in early summer with strawberries and cherries. We make alot of different fruit wines. They are all made with no water and have real big fruit flavor. They all taste like the fruits they're made from. There's nothing better than a well-made fruit wine!!

What locale do you live in? Other native grapes make mighty fine wines,too. 

I'm glad you found the books. It's been great talking with you---I've really enjoyed it. Always fun to help guide a new winemaker--we've taught many local people,here, how to make wine. Many of them have ribboned in wine competitions--one even took a Best of Show! Always "up" for conversation, as are many other winemakers on this site.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 27, 2013)

Yes I am hoping to get some info from the tours. I also have a friend who's family owns a local winery. So hopefully I will get to see them at the next family get together. I live in south jersey!! Fruit wine huh??? Never had it. Sounds yummy!!!!!


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## nayrea143 (Nov 27, 2013)

This was exactly what I needed!!! U have been so helpful and informative. I am a perfectionist and I will prob go crazy trying to master this!!!!!


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## nayrea143 (Nov 27, 2013)

Oh and should I test my wine again??? It's still bubbles in the air lock and there is still bubbles on the top of the wine........


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## Turock (Nov 28, 2013)

I knew I liked you! I'm a perfectionist too--sometimes kind of anal--but try not to take it to ridiculous levels. But I always want to do my best at anything I do--so I understand. Actually, you should make a very good winemaker with that kind of attitude. You'll learn things completely, instead of just scratching the surface.

I sort of felt you were in NJ--you've got to check out the West Chester wine club. Google "Marty Yule" and you'll find his club website. That guy knows more about winemaking than all of us put together, plus another 1000 people. Those guys will be a big help to you--very simple to sign into his site and ask all your questions. They work with nothing other than these big red wines that you're working with. They are real masters.

Is your wine in a carboy? Did you check the SG with a hydrometer before it went into the secondary? If it's in a carboy, all you want to do is bulk age it, raking the sediment off as necessary and letting it age up for about 1 year. It would be a good idea to get some sulfite in it. But we don't know what its PH is so kind of a shot in the dark. It would not hurt to have 50 PPM of free SO2 on this wine. Add 1/4 tsp of powdered meta bisulfite now, and in a month or so add another 1/4 tsp. The reason for this is because part of the sulfite binds with the oxygen, sugars, bacteria,yeast and acetaldehyde in the wine. Bound SO2 doesn't protect the wine--only free SO2 does. To know how much free SO2 is in the wine requires testing. But accurate testing is expensive and the titration kits have too much error. But this wine has no sulfites and no protection--it SHOULD have some added. But if you want this wine free of SO2--in the tradition of the way your friends do it--then that is a choice you have to make. 

While we're on the subject of SO2, if you get a catalog from MoreWine, they have a nice little discussion about sulfites that you'll find useful. But you can go to www.morewinemaking.com/content/manuals and read their red winemaking manual and the free MoreManual on SO2 Management.

Your wine needs to degass and drop out its sediment--this is the only way to stabilize the wine so that it will be stable in the bottle. The bubbles are the CO2 coming off of it--the by-product of yeast. Reds are bulk aged one year--at least. This wine done on wild yeast and no sulfite makes me nervous. And just let me say---if you're doing Cab, that is almost always done with an MLF. Makes it more smooth, reduces acid and makes the wine more robust. We did a Cab from juice this fall--we fermented it then did an MLF on it. It will bulk age for 1 year then we will bottle it and age it in the bottles for 1-2 years before drinking. I'm not sure I ever had a Cab without an MLF. No wonder you say their wine is "strong!"

Never had a fruit wine---you have no idea what you're missing. Fruit wines here are very popular--the Amish Winery in southern OH makes many of them. Too bad you're not closer to us---we make MEAN fruit wines. Maybe you'll give it a try next year?


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## Stressbaby (Nov 29, 2013)

Hi Nayrea,
Jumping in late here, and enjoyed reading all of the posts...but to get back to your original post/question...are you sure about that starting SG? 1.190 is not even on the scale of any of my hydrometers.


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## Turock (Nov 29, 2013)

Ohhhh---How did I miss that? Good point, Stressbaby!! Talk about REAL rocket fuel if that's correct!!!!


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## grapeman (Nov 29, 2013)

I know I am checking in here a bit late, but I think you mistyped your stating specific gravity at 1.190. You would have needed to add a LOT of sugar to get it that high. Chances are good it was 1.090, which is a good beginning SG. Even at that wild yeast might not be able to eat all the sugar so all the recommendations are probably good. If it had been that high to start you would have about a 25% ABV sweet alcohol and I know no yeast that would live to go that high. Most hydrometers only go up to 1.160 or about 20% ABV.

Remember a lot of good wines have been made with wild yeast, but the batches can vary a lot. You can increase the odds of a good wine by starting with a $1 packet of yeast (or less).

P.S.- I see now that Stressbaby also caught this. I really do think it was not read or typed correctly.


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## Turock (Nov 30, 2013)

That HAS to be it--or you really couldn't even ferment such a thing!!! Many new people leave the "0" off their readings when typing SG. Not a good thing--those "0's" are important!


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

Sorry so late !!!!crazy holiday stuff!!! Okay so it's still in the original 6 gallon Carboy. My friends said to leave it alone and not rack it till January. Obviously since then I want to tweek the methods a bit. And that is the number my hubby gave me. Sooooo who knows what we did!!! Geez. I am off to a slow start!!! It's still bubbling!!!!! And a bit foamy too!!' Help!!!' Rack then degassing (and how?) then sulfite?? ( how much? ) then bulk age in a say 5 gallon Carboy bc there is too much airspace in it as it is I think.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

And how back is it that I use a clean but not actually sanitized baster type of thing to get my sample???


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

* bad. Not back. Geez. Auto correct!!


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 2, 2013)

It is tough to try to make wine both the traditional and the up to date way on the same wine, at some point you are really going to have to decide which way you want to make wine, this way we can actually guide you from the Crush/destemming to bulk aging, part of this is taking detailed notes. 
I admire you for hanging on to old school traditions, I had the opportunity to make wine in Tuscany when I lived there, my friends father had a vineyard, we helped him harvest and crush one year, a few months later he brought us the biggest DemiJohn of rocket fuel Chianti that I've ever seen...lol
I had a friend that made wine like this as well, it took me about 6 months to totally convince him to try making wine in the 21st century, he won't go back to the traditional ways of no gravity reading, not stabilizing and so on, you can still make a fantastic wine using current techniques and be able to recreate it year after year.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

I want to do it the new up to date way  I broke the news to them today. And turns out my friends and curios about new techniques but they won't break the tradition. So where and what should I do from here??? I really don't want to loose this batch. I will be following the new way in the spring when I do Chilean grapes.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

My sg reading right now is 1.010. So it was sg 1.020 on 11-9
1.010 on 12-1

So I am still fermenting then!!??? 
Taste kinda nasty  
And taste a bit metallic?
Slight rubbing alcohol like?
Waaaaaaaaa


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

Will pictures help


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

More pictures!!!! Help!!!!


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## nayrea143 (Dec 2, 2013)

6 gallon Carboy Italian merlot


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## novalou (Dec 2, 2013)

nayrea143 said:


> My sg reading right now is 1.010. So it was sg 1.020 on 11-9 1.010 on 12-1 So I am still fermenting then!!??? Taste kinda nasty  And taste a bit metallic? Slight rubbing alcohol like? Waaaaaaaaa



Sounds like you are still fermenting.

It will taste better once fermentation stops and the yeast drops out.

If you have sediment buildup on the bottom, rack to a smaller carboy if you have one. Otherwise, you can top off with wine.


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## Turock (Dec 3, 2013)

You really need to top up that carboy. Get some marbles, sanitize them in meta and add to the carboy. That much headspace allows too much oxygen exposure which can favor vinegar production.


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## Turock (Dec 3, 2013)

Oh wow--I went back and read page 5 and see you now have off flavors. Well, that may be from the wild yeast. You see why many of us don't favor unknown cultures. Sometimes, you get a bad surprise. The other thing that may contribute to the off flavors is lack of nutrient--I'm sure you didn't use any on this ferment.

Well, I would let this age for 9 months to 1 year. Rack off the sediment as needed. Be sure to get the gross lees off the wine in a couple weeks because those lees are real nasty and the product of the ferment and they are often stinky. You want your wine off of those initial lees. It sounds like the ferment is finishing, as you are close to 1 SG. Bulk aging will drop out sediments and some off flavors and offending esters. Given enough time, they will drop out of the wine. Just be patient with it. Damn--it's just so much easier using known cultures!!!


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## HillPeople (Dec 3, 2013)

Nayrea143, Turock and Pumpkinman have given you some very valuable and sound advice and I can't add anything to what they have already written.
Sounds like the wine bug bit you pretty bad, so I can only assume that your production will increase over the years. What this means is that you may have more drinkable wine, but I can guarantee you will also be pouring a lot of it out if you stickk with a "totally natural" production method. Dumping wine is not a very uplifting experience!


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## seth8530 (Dec 3, 2013)

Yup, just be patient with this wine. I feel like we have made you a convert.... But, take what you have learned from this batch and apply it to your next. Juice buckets from this fall's harvest are still on sale! If not, you could play around with some fruit wine.. Those are fun too!


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## nayrea143 (Dec 3, 2013)

Turock said:


> Oh wow--I went back and read page 5 and see you now have off flavors. Well, that may be from the wild yeast. You see why many of us don't favor unknown cultures. Sometimes, you get a bad surprise. The other thing that may contribute to the off flavors is lack of nutrient--I'm sure you didn't use any on this ferment. Well, I would let this age for 9 months to 1 year. Rack off the sediment as needed. Be sure to get the gross lees off the wine in a couple weeks because those lees are real nasty and the product of the ferment and they are often stinky. You want your wine off of those initial lees. It sounds like the ferment is finishing, as you are close to 1 SG. Bulk aging will drop out sediments and some off flavors and offending esters. Given enough time, they will drop out of the wine. Just be patient with it. Damn--it's just so much easier using known cultures!!!



Ok so should I add sulfite now or wait to 1 sg rack and add then. Or should I just leave this alone?? And I am thinking I will buy a smaller Carboy to rack it into to remove the head space and add marbles as needed. 

Thank thank u thank u!!!

Yes I will use known cultures and preservative next time!!!! I am way too OCD for this crap shoot method!!! Lol lol


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## novalou (Dec 3, 2013)

nayrea143 said:


> Ok so should I add sulfite now or wait to 1 sg rack and add then. Or should I just leave this alone?? And I am thinking I will buy a smaller Carboy to rack it into to remove the head space and add marbles as needed. Thank thank u thank u!!! Yes I will use known cultures and preservative next time!!!! I am way too OCD for this crap shoot method!!! Lol lol



Wait until your SG stops changing, whatever the number might be.

Yes, at some point, rack to a smaller carboy.


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## Turock (Dec 4, 2013)

You are SO close to dry stage---I think I'd get some meta on it. Rack it first if there are alot of lees at the bottom. Add about 50 PPM of SO2 to it, and in a couple months I'd add some more because a good portion of the initial dose will become bound. Too bad we don't know a PH on this wine because that's how you determine how much meta your wine needs.


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## HillPeople (Dec 4, 2013)

I agree with Turock. Looks like your wine is in a 6 gal. carboy, so rack/degas into a 5 gallon right now to get rid of all that headspace and off the lees and add 50 ppm of k-meta (about 6-7 Camden tablets crushed and dissolved in a little wine).
And yes- sanitize absolutely everything that comes in contact with your wine- new carboy, racking cane and tubing, new airlock etc. Put it in a cool dark place and forget about it for a while. You can ask some questions about clarifying in a couple of months!


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## nayrea143 (Dec 4, 2013)

Turock said:


> You are SO close to dry stage---I think I'd get some meta on it. Rack it first if there are alot of lees at the bottom. Add about 50 PPM of SO2 to it, and in a couple months I'd add some more because a good portion of the initial dose will become bound. Too bad we don't know a PH on this wine because that's how you determine how much meta your wine needs.



Ok. I will do that!!! So should I be looking into something to test the ph?? U are awesome!!!!


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## nayrea143 (Dec 4, 2013)

HillPeople said:


> I agree with Turock. Looks like your wine is in a 6 gal. carboy, so rack/degas into a 5 gallon right now to get rid of all that headspace and off the lees and add 50 ppm of k-meta (about 6-7 Camden tablets crushed and dissolved in a little wine). And yes- sanitize absolutely everything that comes in contact with your wine- new carboy, racking cane and tubing, new airlock etc. Put it in a cool dark place and forget about it for a while. You can ask some questions about clarifying in a couple of months!



Thank u!!!! I love the step by step directions. I promise I will have more knowledge for my next batch. I am chasing my tail with this batch bc I changed my method/plan for this wine mid way and I am trying to play catch up!!! U guys have been amazing!!!


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## HillPeople (Dec 4, 2013)

Well- in regards to changing your method/plan- not really too much. Just passing along good info for future reference and trying to make your batch of au naturel drinkable after all your effort.
One thing that perhaps wasn't mentioned is that there are a lot of "old country" vintners that have been making wine the way you are going about it for centuries. But they have the advantage of fermenting in a winery that has been in use for a very long time. Yeasts and bacteria become established residents in those old wineries, and they are more than willing to multiply and go forth. Us newbies (less than a 100 year old winery) don't have that advantage, so we have to rely on a little chemistry to get a consistent and drinkable product. Adding K-Meta to your wine prior to bulk aging is not only insurance against unwanted little buggers multiplying and ruining everything, but will actually bring some of the dominant flavors and aromas to the forefront, like the ones you first tasted after racking. Hopefully they were pleasant and your finished wine will be even better, as in more "gathered together", smoother and mellowed.


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## Stressbaby (Dec 5, 2013)

It is very refreshing to reread this thread and see the learning and sharing of knowledge.


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## Turock (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm sure there was alot of bad wines consumed in ancient times. They just didn't know how BAD they were because they couldn't control the ferments as well as we can today to get better results.

The best way to take a PH reading is with a PH meter. If you think you're going to stay in this hobby, a meter would be a good purchase. We PH test every must we work with, and because we work with alot of fruit wines which almost always need PH adjustment because our soil here is acidic. But even if you don't have to adjust PH very often, you should always know the PH of your wine so that you know how much SO2 it needs. PH papers are quite inaccurate--and difficult to read on red wines. The PH on the Merlot is probably toward the high side, with the initial brix you reported. The PH is probably around 3.6 or so. That would mean you need about 60 PPM of free SO2. Look into a meter--be sure the 4.0 and 7.0 standards come with it for calibration. If you get one, let us know what the PH is.

Oh--we're not all that awesome. When you've been making wine for 25 years, you learn a couple things.


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## Turock (Dec 5, 2013)

Ya know?-----I'm kind of concerned that you were reporting a metallic flavor. Metallic flavor is the sign of bad oxidation. There are things you can do to treat an oxidized wine but......

Be sure to get either 1 campden tab or 1/4 tsp of meta in that carboy right away.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 5, 2013)

Turock said:


> Ya know?-----I'm kind of concerned that you were reporting a metallic flavor. Metallic flavor is the sign of bad oxidation. There are things you can do to treat an oxidized wine but...... Be sure to get either 1 campden tab or 1/4 tsp of meta in that carboy right away.



I know. Me too!!!!!  and I am on the sulfite mission. Do u have a recommendation or preference to type??? I really value your opinion


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## grapeman (Dec 6, 2013)

I prefer powdered potassium met-bisulfite as it is easier to measure for a carboy size and there is no need to crush it before using. A 1/4 tespoonful mixed in a bit of wine or even just a bit of water makes addition easy. It would take about 3-4 tablets to get the same dose. One tablet does a gallon at a bit higher rate than the 1/4 teaspoon.


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## Turock (Dec 6, 2013)

I thought campden tabs were 50 PPM of sulfite. But I agree that for dosing a carboy, the powdered meta is so much easier and it doesn't have the binders in it that the tablets have--that makes it easier to get it into solution.

Stressbaby--Yeah, this has been quite an adventure for sure!! The new winemakers on this site keep things interesting.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 6, 2013)

Great!!! Powder it is!!! I need a glass if wine after all this work. Lol. On my way to Seneca wine trail. Watkins glen!!! Can't wait!!!


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## Turock (Dec 6, 2013)

Powder is really more useful when making meta solution for sanitizing too.

Believe me--when you study some more on the grapes you use--get more experience--follow with good winemaking technique and understand some of the science--it will be MUCH easier. When you have control over your ferments, your results are so much better.

Have fun on the wine tasting tour--we expect a full report--LOL.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 6, 2013)

Thanks for the pep talk!!! Cheers to that!!


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## Turock (Dec 6, 2013)

It might be fun for you to make some wine from "easy to work with" grapes like Niagara and Concord. These are our good old native grapes. Niagara is a very fruity white that you can blend with nearly anything--we make several versions of it and it flies off the rack. Our Niagara/lime and Niagara/raspberry are favorites for white wine drinkers.

These are non-fussy grapes to ferment. A great way to get some experience under you, and you'll have great results. You've got to have some successes with this hobby, or else you can get frustrated. Just hang in there--it will get better.


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## HillPeople (Dec 7, 2013)

The Campden tablets I use are .52 g and provide 30 ppm/gal. of free SO2.
There is 1.2g in 1/4 tsp.
So 2 tablets provide around 60 ppm/gal. SO2.


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## Turock (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks,Hill. I remember--way back when--that the campden tabs had 50PPM. Maybe they changed it. I'm gonna have to take a look at that.


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## Turock (Dec 7, 2013)

I just looked at the campden tabs---It adds 75 PPM of sulfate at the rate of 1 tab per gallon.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 8, 2013)

So my wine weekend was fabulous. Although I must report that their big reds were pretty terrible. They say the growing season for the reds is too short to really get a good grape. Their whites however were delicious. I did have their niagra and concord. Very tasty but I would never drink cases of it. Lol. It was so busy it was hard to really get any info. I will be visiting my friends winery soon and I will hopefully get all kinda of info  one guy did tell me a cool trick with a penny to determine if it's a copper problem in my wine which is correctable.


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## Turock (Dec 9, 2013)

I can see then that you really favor the big reds. How were their reds terrible? Which wines were these?

Well, the deal with the penny is if you have H2S on a wine. Some people report stirring their wine with a copper pipe--or using pennies. But this is not the recommended method because you can get an unhealthy dose of copper by doing that. If you ever have H2S issues, you should use a product called Reduless. It has only enough copper to do the job and will not over dose the wine with copper. If Reduless doesn't work, then you have to go to copper sulfate which also requires a test kit to find the right amount to use.

But if you do good nutrient management with your yeasts, you'll never have H2S issues. Next year will be our 25th season of making wine. We are working on wine from June thru Oct so it's quite a few wines. And in all that time, we've never had H2S issues because we learned from the start to always manage our yeast nutrient.


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## nayrea143 (Dec 10, 2013)

They were almost bitter. Some were good well so so. They had some amazing whites tho. The guy was telling me to put a penny in my hand and run some of the wine on it. And if the metallic smell/taste goes away then it's a copper problem and I think he said the chemical u said. In my defense I had been drinking for a whole weekend. Things are blurry. Lol


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## nayrea143 (Dec 10, 2013)

Finger lakes NY


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## nayrea143 (Mar 22, 2014)

Hello my favorite wine people!!! I am back!!! What a horrible winter here!!! On the bright side it's just about time to start my first batch of red from grapes!!!!! Update on my other wine. Well it's crap!!!! It's still kinda bubbly and takes strong as anything!!! I left it alone and it seemed to improve a little but not drinkable. I am going to rack it today or Tom add the meta and top it off with some commercial merlot. And just leave it alone. But I super excited for my first crush!!!!!!!! How's everybody?!?!?!


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## Turock (Mar 23, 2014)

I've been wondering about that wine!!! Well, it's no surprise that it's not that great.

April is Chilean juice bucket time. You could get a bucket or two and have a leg up on your production.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

I am actually going to do about 200lbs of grapes!!!!! Hoping to get a 15 gallon demijon worth. And I will be using yeast and meta. The minimal but def going to use it. I ordered the book you had recommended too. I am hoping to make better wine then my friends!!! Lol. 


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## Turock (Mar 24, 2014)

Hey--great!! I'll be very interested to see how you do. How was the book? Did it help you?


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## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

My book will be here on Friday. I have been reading the online one from more wine website u recommend also. Still very intimidating but I am ready!!!!! And a little crazy so it should work. Lol lol. I am just trying now to prepare and buy wisely. I don't want to start and be short on supplies. So just researching everything I can. 


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## Turock (Mar 25, 2014)

That's a good way to go about it!! What kind of grapes are you going to use and where are you getting them this time of the year---Chile?


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## nayrea143 (Mar 25, 2014)

Yes I am going to so a cab sav and merlot blend. And yes I am doing Chilean!!!!! 


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