# am I choosing the proper training systems?



## TimTheWiner (Apr 10, 2013)

So, with planting only a few weeks away I really want to get a better understanding of what types of training and pruning should be used for each varietal that I am planting. I know they will only reach a bottom wire probably the end of the first year, but I still want to have a diagram set up for the field so I know what rows with have what wires and so I can think about potential shading issues. For example, a TWC system may shed more afternoon shade on the fruiting zone/cordon wire of VSP varietal to the east of it. 



Anyhow, below are the varietals I am planting with the system that I was _planning_ on using and in parenthesis, potentially other recommended training types for this varietal. Please give me your opinions/suggestions on what you think is best for each varietal. I live in Southeast CT if it helps. Each varietal is planned to be spaced at 5 feet (I know I'm squishing 'em in) with 6 feet between rows. Each row will have 12 plants. I think some of the confusion comes when they suggest a TWC for a semi-upright vine. Shouldn't a TWC system be for trailing or semi-trailing, and VSP/MWC be for upright/semi-upright?

BTW - My rows are North/South oriented. Should I plan to have red grapes or green grapes on the East side, or does it not matter? I recall reading that red grapes (like a dark shirt) will absorb more heat and also stay warmer longer vs a lighter green grape that will reflect more light/heat and cool more quickly, so I wasn't sure if one would do better on the East vs West side of the vineyard.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 10, 2013)

Bump for the evening crowd .


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## grapeman (Apr 10, 2013)

There comes a point where you need to make a decision and then stick with it one way or another. I think we have already covered it pretty well, so good luck whatever you decide!


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## Duster (Apr 10, 2013)

If it were me I would not put the Marquette or the Noriet on a VSP trellis. If possible a GDC trellis would do these vines well and at the very least I would use a kniffen system.
Others may have there opinions as well.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 10, 2013)

Sorry grapeman, I just didn't extensively research the trellis types that I would be utilizing. Maybe choosing 11 different varietals was a bad idea? I know my posts are usually long, but I want to be sure I'm doing things "right" from the get go, and I don't think I've inquired much on training. 

To Duster, I don't see a GDC system as doable because all the posts/spacing have already been set and there would most definitely be shading problems (to the next row). I see Marquette/Noiret are both semi-upright which is why I'm confused about a TWC system which seems better for trailing. Kniffen does seem doable, but not sure if umbrella or 4 cane would be best.


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## Pat57 (Apr 10, 2013)

I always thought that any upright, or semi upright vines were best on a VSP, and trailing vines on a TWC or other trailing type trellis?


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 10, 2013)

I assumed the same thing but the Marquette and Noiret are both semi uptight yet Double A recommends a TWC, thus my confusion. Even the Caygua is semi-trailing yet suggests a MWC, seems like it should be TWC if semi-trailing. And I'm still unsure of what differentiates MWC from VSP, I thought they were one in the same.


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## HillPeople (Apr 11, 2013)

Starting year two with my vines and I can understand the confusion on training. Visited a nearby vineyard last weekend and both their Marquettes and LaCrescents were VSP trained and seem to be doing well. The vintner there said that VSP opens up the canopy more allowing for more airflow, sunlight and easier spraying. More tying involved however.


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

MWC is VSP- different name.
Most of the hybrid grapes have never had training system trials performed on them as they are relatively new. It is a multi-year project to perform these trials, so a few generalizations have been used to come up with recommendations. I saw this about 6 years ago and decided to do something about it. I began my own limited trials for training systems. 5 years ago I planted a 432 vine 4 variety, 4 training system trial to compare a red and a white both high vigor and medium/low vigor. I have 2 years yield data already- yes that is right, I was able to crop in year 3 and still get higher yields than typical in year 5 normally. You have already limited yourself by predetermining row spacing before ever even deciding for sure on the systems. Hybrids , especially high vigor ones perform differently than traditional vitis vinifera. The high vigor works against you in a VSP or MWC setting and it is a constant challenge for both Marquette and Noiret to keep within the constraints of VSP (I have tried both of them with VSP and MWC) With high vigor types, you keep the vines under control through excessive VSP manipulation. This is because you have a bushel of vigor tying to keep the vine within a peck of space. The only way to do it is to constantly train and prune. With a TWC, you let the vigor work for you and even though they are semi-upright, the length of the shoot drops it to the ground and both Marquette and Noiret give a higher yield on TWC with less effort. (Traminette is also similar). In my trial, I found the high vigor varieties do best with a double fruiting system, especially my Modified GDC. As an example, Marquette averaged about 10 pounds with VSP, close to 21 pounds on TWC and 27 pounds with the Mod GDC. See the last picture at this link to see how Mod GDC is implemented and pruned http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/pruning-different-training-systems-37597/index2.html .Quality was similar to each system, the only differences were yield and amount of work needed to keep them trained. That is in an inverse proportion meaning more yield equals less work and vice versa. This is an ongoing trial and I hope to keep the comparison going for a few more years before making specific recommendations. A group of the states in cold climate regions is implementing a multi-state grant effort to help determine best practices for these type grapes and limited training system trials (much smaller than mine each) are part of it. There is a need for this knowledge, it just hasn't been collected yet.

A link to some preliminary info is at this link if you haven't looked yet http://hipvineyard.com/hipvineyard/research/research.html look at the graphs for a visual. I am finishing up the Final Report for the 2012 grant now as time permits. Also as I prune, I am seeing how these systems also can affect the hardiness of the canes and buds due to differing hardening off of those canes.

I didn't mean to brush you off about what is better, it just is not really know yet. You could try to contact Bill Nail in CT as I believe he is the training trial lead scientist in CT.

While your vines will do fine using your first choices, they may not be the best at your location and the only way to know this would be to compare for yourself. Good luck to you.


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

In response to HillPeople and the general statement that VSP opens the canopy up, I have found especially with Marquette and LaCrescent that is false. These varieties are too new for many even commercial vineyards to have much experience with them. I have had experience with both extensively since before they were named varieties at the Cornell Baker Research Farm. The vigor is the problem. The extra vigor actually tends to crowd and shade the vines worse with VSP.


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## GreginND (Apr 11, 2013)

From what I see growing around me in VSP and TWC, I think Grapeman is right. Vigorous hybrids should benefit from his new system or TWC. I'm convinced of that and am planning on it for at least Marquette and Frontenacs.

I'm not sure yet with Brianna and Petite Pearl. I'm thinking Brianna would be fine but PP is a little slower growing and not quite as vigorous, as I understand.

Any thoughts on Petite Pearl, Rich?


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## HillPeople (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks so much for that info Rich! No wonder there is confusion with newer cold hardy varieties. These are my current varieties: Marquette, LaCrescent and Prairie Star. Going in this year are Marechal Foch, Louise and some more Prairie Stars (mostly because I had a very nice wine made from Prairie Star at a Wis. vineyard 2 years ago). I would very much appreciate your input on training these varieties, other than what you have already covered.
I noticed from your trials that the Marquettes had a higher yield with TWC, but considerably higher Brix with VSP.


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

I will write more answers after I have lunch-just got in from freezing my hands off pruning. I will address the difference in Brix between the TWC and the VSP. The last rep in the trial of TWC had a lot of raccoon damage, so the sample was pulled from less mature fruit, so the brix was lower on the average for TWC where in reality, they were all within less than one point brix- insignificant compared to the extra yield. More to come on the rest.


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## GreginND (Apr 11, 2013)

Rich, as always, I appreciate your wisdom and kindness to share.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 11, 2013)

Wow Rich you really are great. Nice to see the actual difference in yield between the VSP and TWC for the Marquette (and/or Noiret) and obviously a lot less time consuming. I can still consider this as an option as wires won't go up for another month or so. I DO wish I did a little more research prior, and go with wider vine and row spacing but just too many constraints in the area I am working with.

Thanks also for the confirmation that VSP and MWC ARE the same, I just found it odd that Double A's chart listed MWC for some and VSP for some, so I assumed a difference. On a side note, I looked at your first link and your modified GDC looks similar to a 4 arm kniffen to me. Can you possibly elaborate on the differences there?


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

I will begin with a response to you ShowckWavesince it is your thread. Look at the picture of the bracket. It is a two wire GDC system, but with the angle, one side is lower than the other. This provides seperation of the fruiting zones, but they don't need to be as far apart because the lower one doesn't shade the other one. A four arm kniffen has 4 arms like the GDC, but two are run on the top wire and two on a lower wire.

4 Arm Kniffen











ModGDC





Notice there are two arms on each fruiting wire that are just a bit off horizontal from each other.


And then some Marquette on Mod GDC just before picking- notice a row of grapes up high and another lower down- these are all on the same vines


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

Greg, the Petite Pearl is definitely slower growing so a single fruiting wire would be appropriate. I am thinking either VSP or TWC. Even though I have some planted, they are still less than 3 feet tall after 3 years. They were tissue culture vines which begin more slowly, but this is ridiculous. I showed them to Andy Farmer from Northeastern Vine Supply when he was over last month. He said he will try to get me some bareroot to replace these as it should not take them this long to grow, and he knows I know what I am doing.


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

HillPeople said:


> Thanks so much for that info Rich! No wonder there is confusion with newer cold hardy varieties. These are my current varieties: Marquette, LaCrescent and Prairie Star. Going in this year are Marechal Foch, Louise and some more Prairie Stars (mostly because I had a very nice wine made from Prairie Star at a Wis. vineyard 2 years ago). I would very much appreciate your input on training these varieties, other than what you have already covered.
> I noticed from your trials that the Marquettes had a higher yield with TWC, but considerably higher Brix with VSP.


 

HillPeople, the Prairie Star has a brittle shoot blowout problem under windy conditions. They work well under TWC conditions, but if you get heavy winds when the shoots are 12-18 inches long, you can lose 90% of the shoots to blowing off the vine. I found in order to combat that, I prune the vines to a rough 4 arm-kniffen system as they grow. This helps the vines shoots get a bit intermingled to prevent blowout. Once the shoots harden off at about 2 fee, prune most of the shoots away, just leaving a mostly bare lower cordon. This leaves essentially a Top Wire Cordon system and you get nice large delicious lower acid Prairie Star grapes. They really do make a nice wine, but can be a bit more work.

Marechal Foch and Louise Swenson both do well as TWC, although I prefer a 4 arm kniffen a bit more with the Foch to combat the legginess and vigor problems of the variety (but have gotten quite pleasing results with TWC).


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## GreginND (Apr 11, 2013)

grapeman said:


> Greg, the Petite Pearl is definitely slower growing so a single fruiting wire would be appropriate. I am thinking either VSP or TWC. Even though I have some planted, they are still less than 3 feet tall after 3 years. They were tissue culture vines which begin more slowly, but this is ridiculous. I showed them to Andy Farmer from Northeastern Vine Supply when he was over last month. He said he will try to get me some bareroot to replace these as it should not take them this long to grow, and he knows I know what I am doing.



Thanks. Rich. Yes, when I talked with Tom Plocher he also suggested a single fruiting wire for his PP and 6 foot vine spacings. I am debating between TWC or VSP for those. But I will probably still plant them 8 feet considering my soil is soooo damn fertile.

Just one followup question. With 9 foot row spacings, will that be too tight to do something like your mod GDC?


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

Greg it is tight, but that is the spacing I have in the trial, so it does work, even with my full sized 50 hp tractor- tight but it works. A subcompact 25-30 hp with 5 foot spaced tires would be perfect. Depends on what you have I suspect.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks again for the info, and that 2nd pic of the modified GDC def makes sense to me now. Maybe it would be so hard to arrange. So would you prefer the modified GDC over TWC for the Marquette/Noiret then overall/worth the extra work? I do regret not research this earlier than now, and making my rows a bit longer so I was not squishing them together at 5' spacing. I just saw 4-6 ft on a lot of the vines I was interested in on Double A's site and figured 5 was fine. Too late now ;/


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## GreginND (Apr 11, 2013)

Shockwave,

I think part of the decision of Rich's mod GDC vs TWC will depend on your soil. The TWC is a single fruiting wire with two cordons while the mod GDC is two fruiting wires with four cordons. The ability to grow two fruiting wires with high quality will depend on the vigor of your grapes and the soil. Marquette should be vigorous enough for that but if your soil is low on nutrients it may be better to go with the TWC. If you have good soil and vigorous varietals you should be good with the mod-GDC.

Rich, 

I would like to do 10 foot rows but I don't think I can squeeze them all in my space if I do that. I haven't bought my tractor yet so that is something else I can control after the fact. Thanks again for the info. Much appreciated.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 11, 2013)

I would like to do another soil test this spring just to see where I'm at again. The first test last Sept was fairly low across the board (potassium/nitrogen/etc). and my pH was a measly 4.7 but I lined quite a bit (pulverized), not sure if its taken full effect yet. Probably a few more months.


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## grapeman (Apr 11, 2013)

Greg thanks for the explanation- you are spot on - the soil definitely influences the vigor of each variety. I think ShockwaveCT will do alright for the marquette with TWC and I would choose that for it over VSP- even though a lot of the booklets say VSP. You can indeed grow some nice looking Marquette on VSP, but it is a LOT of work, where the TWC just needs a quick comb-down of the growing shoots and a bit of leaf pulling.

I am afraid that the vigor of his site may be artificailly high now as he dug the rows out and mixed ammendments back in, just like Jeff Cox recommends in his book. The problem is that that practice usually makes a site too vigorous and you fight that vigor for 10 years afterwards. Unless he had hardpan- which it wasn't there was no real benefit to the procedure other than to remove the big rock from the sit.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 11, 2013)

What's funny is that I chose to do the site digging on my own before even ordering the book, based on all the boulders that we encountered. When I did end up reading the book I had to chuckle that he recommended digging trenches then backfilling which is exactly what I had already done! I think I will go with a TWC thank to all your suggestions for the Marquette and Noiret then. I assuming that since Double A suggests MWC for the Seyval and Chardonel then I will be ok with VSP for them as well correct? The only iffy one is the Cayuga, which the Double A chart says MWC even though it is trailing. Seems like a TWC for the Cayuga and LaCrescent would be ideal as well. Only thing I have to think about now is potential shading issues if I have a TWC row with a thick canopy shadowing a neighboring VSP's lower clusters/leaves.....


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## grapeman (Apr 12, 2013)

I also had to chuckle also when I read that you were digging out the rows and backfilling again as that is the first thing that Jeff Cox always recommends and is good advice about 25% of the time, but one heck of a lot of work as you found out. There are cases where it helps and with all the large rocks you have, you will probably benefit from it.

Shading should not be a problem. Generally you want as far between the rows as the posts are tall to avoid shading problems, which you have. Cayuga grows upright until then get a few feet long, so it will work alright for that. It would also work with TWC except the shoots will reach past the next row so you do need to comb the shoots down often. They will develop nice honking big clusters of a pound or so and make a decent eating grape as well, but are seeded. Chardonel and Seval do well either VSP or TWC.


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## TimTheWiner (Apr 12, 2013)

I did call a local vineyard that grows Cayuga today who said they use VSP. Says it produces slightly less yield than TWC, but he prefers to put more energy/nutrients into fewer clusters for quality.


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## grapeman (Apr 12, 2013)

Where I am the extra vigor is not needed. They have more freeze damage up here so we have fewer shoots and the cluster sizes are typically over a pound apiece. Hard to imagine them being any bigger because VSP was used. Again, either system will work for them so flip a coin.


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