# An experiment in cold-soak maceration..



## bein_bein

In the summer of 2012 I got 70lbs of blueberries, so I did a little experiment. I know that some wines are made using a cold-saok maceration to extract more color and flavor from the skins (as I understand it ) So I made two identical batches of blueberry wine, with the exception that one batch was put through a my version of cold-saok maceration. For the batch I crushed the berries, stuck them in the fridge and let them set for 4 days. After 4 day I crushed the other batch of blueberries and began the winemaking process. So here are the two batches as of today. I just backsweetened and added the clarify agents. I'm not going to tell you which batch is which...not yet anyways but here the are, which do you think is which and why?





 

 

 



p.s. one also has more of a blueberry taste to it...


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## JohnT

I assume that the cold soaked had more exposure to skins. This would make it darker. There is no doubt, the darker one was cold soaked!


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## RegionRat

That looks great. I read an article about a month or so about Cold-Soak Maceration. I guess I will be doing it in the future.

Thanks for sharing

RR


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## bein_bein

LOL... as of this date/time there have been 40 people that have read the thread, but only 3 bothered to vote...lol (thank you participants )



JohnT said:


> I assume that the cold soaked had more exposure to skins. This would make it darker. There is no doubt, the darker one was cold soaked!



yeup , that was my exact reason for trying the cold-soak in the first place.


I won't keep those of you who voted in suspense, unfortunately everyone was wrong (insert irritating buzzer sound here)

I was very surprised as well. JohnT echoed my thoughts and intents for the cold maceration... to get a deep dark wine with nice strong blueberry flavor. So I guess I was just as wrong lol
I tagged each carboy so I wouldn't lose track of who was whom in the process..





The cold-soak has less color AND a barely perceptible decreased blueberry flavor. Sooo...any thoughts on why the cold-soak seems to have restricted impartation of color and flavor..?


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## GreginND

After cold soak, they were treated exactly the same? Fermentation was done at the same temp with the same yeast, etc? Besides the color and slightly decreased blueberry flavor, are the flavors otherwise different?

And, one more question, are you sure you haven't mixed up the tags along the way? Just checking.


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## s0615353

I knew there was a trick to this...


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## bein_bein

GreginND said:


> After cold soak, they were treated exactly the same? Fermentation was done at the same temp with the same yeast, etc? Besides the color and slightly decreased blueberry flavor, are the flavors otherwise different?
> 
> And, one more question, are you sure you haven't mixed up the tags along the way? Just checking.


yup... started the same day, same yeast, side by side the whole time... No other differences other than the 'robustness' of the fruit flavor.and I'm 99.99998253% sure the tags never got mixed up since I did all the racking and transferring. I almost wish I could say that they were probably switched...that would at least make the hassle of doing the cold-soak worthwhile...lol


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## RegionRat

Here is the article read. Sorry to say but your results confuse me.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/coldsoak.htm

RR


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## bein_bein

RegionRat said:


> Here is the article read. Sorry to say but your results confuse me.
> 
> http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/coldsoak.htm
> 
> RR


Don't be sorry... they confuse AND disappoint me... lol


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## s0615353

After the cold soak, did you let the must get back to room temperature before pitching the yeast. If not, maybe the cold start could be the reason for the poor extraction. If not, I am out of ideas.


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## Bacci

assuming you added water to the crushed berries, did you pour warm to hot sugar/water over the non soaked batch. Adding the hot/warm sugar water process seemed to extract more color from my previous batches


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## bein_bein

s0615353 said:


> After the cold soak, did you let the must get back to room temperature before pitching the yeast. If not, maybe the cold start could be the reason for the poor extraction. If not, I am out of ideas.



Yes I did. I always let my must sit 24hrs before pitching yeast. That's just something I have gotten into the habit of doing, especially with fruit wines, so that the pectin can do its thing before fermentation starts....


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## JohnT

It is more likely that one of couple of things happened here... 

1) The amount of skins in each batch varried. 
2) The "ripeness" of the skins in each batch varried. 
3) you made a simple mistake in tagging the carboys (or perhaps someone is playing a joke on you). you say that you are 99.99998253% sure, so I take it that there is room for doubt. 

In a controlled environment, longer exposure to skins always equals darker color. Obviously, something is at play here.


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## RegionRat

JohnT said:


> It is more likely that one of couple of things happened here...
> 
> 1) The amount of skins in each batch varried.
> 2) The "ripeness" of the skins in each batch varried.
> 3) you made a simple mistake in tagging the carboys (or perhaps someone is playing a joke on you). you say that you are 99.99998253% sure, so I take it that there is room for doubt.
> 
> In a controlled environment, longer exposure to skins always equals darker color. Obviously, something is at play here.



I have to agree.

RR


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## bein_bein

Bacci said:


> assuming you added water to the crushed berries, did you pour warm to hot sugar/water over the non soaked batch. Adding the hot/warm sugar water process seemed to extract more color from my previous batches



Did not add any liquid to the cold soak, crushed the berries then let them soak in the fridge at 40-42deg for 4 day. When I made the two batches of wine at the same time I did the same as always, added water that was room temp, since I use bottled water for all my wines. Then pitched the yeast in both 24hrs later.



JohnT said:


> It is more likely that one of couple of things happened here...
> 
> 
> 1) The amount of skins in each batch varried.
> 2) The "ripeness" of the skins in each batch varried.
> 3) you made a simple mistake in tagging the carboys (or perhaps someone is playing a joke on you). you say that you are 99.99998253% sure, so I take it that there is room for doubt.
> 
> In a controlled environment, longer exposure to skins always equals darker color. Obviously, something is at play here.



well (he said as he hiked up his britches..) can't be #1 or #2 because all the berries used for these two wines, plus the blueberry port I made (70 lbs all told) all came from the blueberry farm, processed the same day. My nephew worked there and these are the berries they sell to juice makers because they would be over ripe by the time they get to market. And I _know_ I didn't get the tags switched. 
I did get this as one plausible reason from another source;


> Just for fun I'll go contrarian and say the lighter one was cold soaked. The extended storage after maceration caused some of the pigment to be lost due to a lack of stabilizing components when the pigments were released. I'm also guessing this way because I've made blueberry wine before without extended maceration and it was darker in color than the light one.



so there ya have it... not sure if the way I did the cold soak is how it's done with grapes...but I do know that the way I did it does nothing for blueberry wine...


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## GreginND

Well, with grape wines we don't typically add water so crushing and soaking is what they do. They might add something like opti-red to the cold soak to help extract colors and flavors. 

Did you add any pectic enzyme or other enzymes to your cold soak? I would think pectinase and some water might make a difference.


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## bein_bein

The only thing added to the crushed berries prior to cold soak was a campden tab. Plan is to get berries from the same source this year, maybe I will repeat the process with the addition of pectic enzyme and water.... or I'll just make a bigger batch of blueberry port!!


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## GreginND

bein_bein said:


> I did get this as one plausible reason from another source;



As a chemist, I'm not sure I'm convinced about this. The color compounds (anthocyanins) are very similar in grapes and blueberries and they are not particularly unstable. That is, I don't think they need anything special for their stability. The are affected by acid and pH changes toward alkaline changes the color. But I don't think that is an issue here.

I wonder, did you observe if the gross lees were darker in color with the cold macerated batch?


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## bein_bein

Didn't really pay that much attention, so I can't say with any surety..


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## bein_bein

Here's a more in-depth explanation... way over my head 



> The reason is likely the high quantity of monomeric anthocyanin available preferment. These are fairly reactive and will bind to any number of phenols including themselves. There are specific compounds (protiens IIRC) that also bind anthocyanin and precipitate out of the must. If the phenolic levels are low early in the ferment, this would leave the anthocyanin nothing but precipitable compounds to bind with.


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## JohnT

bein_bein said:


> Here's a more in-depth explanation... way over my head


 
Yes, but unless I am mistaken, that does not seem to explain why temperature is an issue.


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## LonelyMassachusetts

This is really weird. I'm surprised as everyone else. For my batch of blueberry, I used a bit less than 18 pounds for five gallons. I didn't use cold soak maceration and it has a beautiful color right now.

It's too bad the cold soak maceration is so light colored, but kudos for the experiment!


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## botigol

I have been trying to find the article that I, at least relatively recently, read about this, but haven't come across it today. The point that I recall was that cold maceration with Pinot Noit grapes only led to increased color extraction up to a certain point and after that the must would actually lose color. I have a hard time believing that four days would be sufficient to cause this since it seems like the article was indicating an extended period of time, but it is an example of this type of situation and maybe blueberries have more or less of whatever it is that causes the lightening that could shorten the timeframe. I may try looking for that article again later.


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## bein_bein

Here's one of the articles from which I based my experiment/times.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/coldsoak.htm

Another article I found seems to lend credence to the theory I posted earlier and one possible solution that was suggested was adding tannin....


> Why do it? Some winemakers like the added color and flavor and feel that it improves a wine’s overall mouthfeel and that it might even improve the ageability of the wine. Sometimes, more color can be extracted during post-fermentation extended maceration as a result of the increased solubility of color-containing molecules from the skins in the presence of alcohol. *Another factor in extended maceration is that short chain tannin molecules can link up to form longer chain molecules that yield more supple and pleasurable wines.*​ However, just as with pre-fermentation cold soaking, with extended maceration, experience is the rule to follow. Empirical studies show that extended maceration can make wines that are more complex and delicious, but sometimes if taken to extreme can result in overly astringent and harsh tannins, which may not benefit from aging in barrel or bottle. This process is often done with Bordeaux and Rhône grape varieties that have significant tannin levels. However,  there is typically some loss of fruitiness and color in the process, but many feel it is justified by the complexity and mouthfeel that it adds to the wine.​


Very interesting... maybe this year I'll have to do a number of smaller batches with incremental cold-soak times, and varied tannin levels....first I'll have to devise a way to keep everything organized ..lol


p.s. Here's a link to the article that was quoted here


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