# Anything special worth doing on Whites?



## NorCal (Aug 9, 2018)

@4score and I are splitting a 1,000 pound bin of Viognier this season...heck weeks from now. We've made Chardonnay the past two seasons. Turned out pretty good, earning silvers at the CA state fair.

The process I've used was pretty straight forward; sort clusters, destem, crush, immediately press, let settle 24 hours, rack, innoculate, keep must temps as low as possible; ferment temp kept at 65- 68 degrees until dry, stirring daily.

I'm wondering if the wine would benefit by changing things up? Any suggestions.


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## pgentile (Aug 9, 2018)

NorCal said:


> @4score and I are splitting a 1,000 pound bin of Viognier this season...heck weeks from now. We've made Chardonnay the past two seasons. Turned out pretty good, earning silvers at the CA state fair.
> 
> The process I've used was pretty straight forward; sort clusters, destem, crush, immediately press, let settle 24 hours, rack, innoculate, keep must temps as low as possible; ferment temp kept at 65- 68 degrees until dry, stirring daily.
> 
> I'm wondering if the wine would benefit by changing things up? Any suggestions.



Viognier is one of my favorite whites, I have only made from juice buckets though. I think your viognier approach should be the same as the chardonnay. Although I have read, haven't tasted any yet, leaving viognier on skins and making an "orange" wine. Supposed to have more depth and body.

What about MLF on this? And oak after fermentation?


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## NorCal (Aug 9, 2018)

pgentile said:


> Viognier is one of my favorite whites, I have only made from juice buckets though. I think your chardonnay approach should be the same as the viognier. Although I have read, haven't tasted any yet, leaving viognier on skins and making an "orange" wine. Supposed to have more depth and body.
> 
> What about MLF on this? And oak after fermentation?


I am waiting to see what this wine tastes like before committing to it, but have Beta MLF on stand by. I'll age in glass, but would add oak spirals if I choose that path.


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## Johnd (Aug 9, 2018)

It may not be doable for your situation, but temps below 60 will do a lot to preserve the flavors and aromas of a very flavorful and aromatic wine like Viognier.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 9, 2018)

I love Viognier. I made one that I liked quite a lot (didn't love, but think that's my fault) in 2016 and thought it was all gone. I found ten bottles of it earlier tonight (woohoo!). For my preference, I'd say no MLF, no oak; cool fermentation to preserve the aromatics (which is one of my favorite things about this wine).


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## sour_grapes (Aug 9, 2018)

Funny, I've drinking ho-made Viognier (from a juice bucket) all night. I just grabbed a glass right before reading your post. I do not have any specific suggestons; I think you should vinify it the way you have been doing things.


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## NorCal (Aug 10, 2018)

I’ve had Viognoir that taste and smelled like I was eating a cantaloupe. If I get a wine like that, I think some acidity and little to no oak would be the right path. If it is a big pineapple, honeysuckle wine, I’ll mlf and throw some oak at it. I asked to pick at 25 brix, which is on the big side, so I’m prepared for the latter approach.


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## NorCal (Aug 10, 2018)

Johnd said:


> It may not be doable for your situation, but temps below 60 will do a lot to preserve the flavors and aromas of a very flavorful and aromatic wine like Viognier.


I checked my notes from last year and was impressed I kept the ferm under 70. This is during 100 degree days, so I don’t think I’d be able to find another 10 degrees.


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## balatonwine (Aug 10, 2018)

I suggest this, if you have not already read it:

https://winemakermag.com/article/1307-viognier

A few things you will note in this article: Try to keep fermentation temps below 60°F if possible (i.e. 65 is not ideal, and 70 I think is too high). Brix of 25 is too high, 24 max. Etc.

Also, especially with whites, you should not use Brix alone as a measure when to pick. With whites you want to get the most balanced grapes (pH, Brix, physical maturity (check the seeds), etc.) from the field as possible, and limit your cellar chemistry adjustment work. That is if the Brix is "only" 23.5, but everything is in balance, you should consider picking.

A few personal comments:

I would not do any MLF or oak, both will cause a loss of the aromatic qualities.

I would avoid stirring daily near the end of fermentation, especially if you have to open the vessel to do this. In fact, I often rack near the end off the gross, and let the wine start to settle. It will shorten the clarification time frame and faster to bottle -- you don't want to bulk age and I would suggest not doing sur lie. Rack often. I, for a number of reasons, failed to do this timely last year and had sulfur compounds develop.

Consider fermenting some free run juice separate from pressed juice to see the effects this can have on the resulting wine.


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## DriftlessDoc (Aug 10, 2018)

Johnd said:


> It may not be doable for your situation, but temps below 60 will do a lot to preserve the flavors and aromas of a very flavorful and aromatic wine like Viognier.



What should a good target temp be? Ive run temps 58-60 reading that the yeasts Ive used (QA23 and K1V 1116) need to be at least this warm to finish. Can I go lower?


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## Johnd (Aug 10, 2018)

NorCal said:


> What should a good target temp be? Ive run temps 58-60 reading that the yeasts Ive used (QA23 and K1V 1116) need to be at least this warm to finish. Can I go lower?



If you can control your temps, push it down a bit and see how it goes. I’ve gone a bit lower with QA23 and CY3079 at 55F without any issues. IIRC, the AF was 3-4 weeks, slow and steady, and you can always let it warm a bit if needed.


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## NorCal (Aug 10, 2018)

Thanks for the replies. The vineyard owner and winemaker has farmed Voignoir for quite a while, so I'm going with his recommendation of 25 brix / 3.5 pH target. 

I think it will be somewhere between the low brix high acid "mean-spirited Sauvignon Blanc" and the high brix low acid "alcoholic canned fruit cocktail juice", as described in the article, which was great, thanks. I really want right of center of that spectrum and I could see holding off on mlf and no oak.


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## Johny99 (Aug 10, 2018)

I like your number targets. I’d fudge sugar to keep acidity. 

On my Viognier, I’ve barrel fermented the last two years and loved it. Very different than oak aged. I can’t justify a new barrel for that this year so I’m going to try fermenting half on spirals and half in stainless. Just a thought. 

Past years I put half through malo and blend. I like the bit of cream but no butteryness. I find it needs a lighter hand than Chard, although that may be because my wife’s preference is a lighter style than we like our chard.


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## NorCal (Aug 11, 2018)

Johny99 said:


> I like your number targets. I’d fudge sugar to keep acidity.
> 
> On my Viognier, I’ve barrel fermented the last two years and loved it. Very different than oak aged. I can’t justify a new barrel for that this year so I’m going to try fermenting half on spirals and half in stainless. Just a thought.
> 
> Past years I put half through malo and blend. I like the bit of cream but no butteryness. I find it needs a lighter hand than Chard, although that may be because my wife’s preference is a lighter style than we like our chard.



I like your style. Almost like a Starbucks drink. I’ll take a 50/50 Vente Viognoir, little cream, hold the butter.


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## balatonwine (Aug 11, 2018)

NorCal said:


> the article, which was great, thanks.



I am glad you liked it. Here is another, from Virginia Tech. It is more technical, but I think also a good read:

https://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/wm_issues/Viognier Wine Balance.pdf


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## NorCal (Aug 11, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> I am glad you liked it. Here is another, from Virginia Tech. It is more technical, but I think also a good read:
> 
> https://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/wm_issues/Viognier Wine Balance.pdf


Another good on. found this interesting; 
_With most varieties, grape aroma and flavor development is relatively linear, increasing at a relatively even pace near the end of the ripening period. Viognier, however, undergoes an engustment (a rapid respiratory change) late in the season that creates the aroma and flavor characteristics associated with the variety including lychee, musk, rose, pear, apricot, peach, nectar, ginger and citrus.
Engustment occurs late in the season, often with a relatively high potential alcohol (above 14%), linking aroma and flavor to mouthfeel. _

14% = 23.5 brix, so I’ll definitely be above that.


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## balatonwine (Aug 12, 2018)

NorCal said:


> 14% = 23.5 brix, so I’ll definitely be above that.



Yep. That is why I used 23.5 as the minimum point to "consider" picking if all else is in balance, because even if all the numbers are in balance below that the wine from Viognier would not be ideal.


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## NorCal (Dec 2, 2018)

An update on the Viognier. I have 5 carboys going. Two of them have oak and are a blend with some Chardonnay, to fill the headspace and try something different. The other 3 carboys are still in the throws of mlf.

The Vio-nay with the oak tastes like an awkward Chardonnay at this point, the 100% viognier is coming into its own with some nice pear notes.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 4, 2018)

I've always wondered, when we talk of fermenting under 60* it this the liquid or ambient temp? My last batch a Sauv Blanc I fermented in a chest freezer and kept the liquid around 60 but the freezer was set around 50.


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## Johnd (Dec 4, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> I've always wondered, when we talk of fermenting under 60* it this the liquid or ambient temp? My last batch a Sauv Blanc I fermented in a chest freezer and kept the liquid around 60 but the freezer was set around 50.



I fermented two 10 gallon batches (chard and pinot gris) last spring in my wine room, ambient temp 55, liquid temp also 55. Must temp never got up above ambient temps on my ferments. Took almost a month, but the results were very good.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 5, 2018)

Johnd said:


> I fermented two 10 gallon batches (chard and pinot gris) last spring in my wine room, ambient temp 55, liquid temp also 55. Must temp never got up above ambient temps on my ferments. Took almost a month, but the results were very good.



Interesting, I used QA23 and Rhone 4600 and with both I had to lower the temp in the freezer to maintain the ~60 liquid temp. It did take quite a while to finish though. Could have been a long as 6 weeks to finish in the carboy.


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## Johnd (Dec 5, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Interesting, I used QA23 and Rhone 4600 and with both I had to lower the temp in the freezer to maintain the ~60 liquid temp. It did take quite a while to finish though. Could have been a long as 6 weeks to finish in the carboy.



I used ICV-D47 for the pg and CY-3079 for the chard. The juice was thawed and put straight into carboys and under airlock for AF. Did 10 gallons of each, so there was 5 gallons in each 6 gallon carboy during AF. Fermentation was slow and steady with no real spikes in activity. 
PG racked and cleared at completion, chard came out to room temps at completion for MLF and lees stirring, went back into 55 at MLF completion for more lees aging.


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