# Is this MLF Finished or Not?



## jsbeckton (Jun 6, 2019)

I coiniculated VP41 about a month ago and have done a few tests. It’s still seems like a faint spot is left but it doesn’t seem to have changed over the last few weeks. What say you?


----------



## Johnd (Jun 6, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> I coiniculated VP41 about a month ago and have done a few tests. It’s still seems like a faint spot is left but it doesn’t seem to have changed over the last few weeks. What say you?



Looks pretty clean to me. Give it 2 - 3 more weeks before you sulfite and move on.


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 6, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Looks pretty clean to me. Give it 2 - 3 more weeks before you sulfite and move on.



Thanks, will do. Just a bit anxious without it being sulfited yet. It’s also a bit tart with a low pH so want to cold stabilize as well but will keep it warm to let the MLB do anything else they can for another few weeks.


----------



## Johnd (Jun 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Thanks, will do. Just a bit anxious without it being sulfited yet. It’s also a bit tart with a low pH so want to cold stabilize as well but will keep it warm to let the MLB do anything else they can for another few weeks.



Have had wines go nearly 5 months with no sulfite, just make sure you’ve eliminated as much air space as you can, and leave the airlock in place as much as you can.

How about some info before you CS your wine. What kind of wine is it, what’s your starting and finishing pH’s and TA’s?


----------



## Bubba1 (Jun 7, 2019)

I just tested my Cab that was co-inoculated with vp-41 and my chronograph looks identical to yours I just racked and sulfited Im sure it will be fine I too get antsy when its left unprotected.


----------



## mainshipfred (Jun 7, 2019)

I don't co-inoculate but my minimum time frame is 3 months, fully topped with an airlock.


----------



## stickman (Jun 7, 2019)

@jsbeckton You may want to keep your chromatograms off of the drywall, the gypsum can affect the color.


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 7, 2019)

stickman said:


> @jsbeckton You may want to keep your chromatograms off of the drywall, the gypsum can affect the color.


Thanks but its actually on a plastic table (that might look like drywall ).


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 7, 2019)

Johnd said:


> How about some info before you CS your wine. What kind of wine is it, what’s your starting and finishing pH’s and TA’s?



Good point. Well as you may recall I over-reacted to what I thought was too high of a pH and low TA in this thread:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/first-all-grape-wine-ta-ph-question.69104/

So I ended up adding acid (and acid blend instead of tartaric acid to boot). After I added the acid and stirred everything up I was seeing pH of 3.4 and a TA of 0.67 which seemed good but after fermentation it was measuring at pH=3.2 and TA =0.98. I have calibrated my meter and done the acid test several times and getting the same result. Its also really bright pink which I know is due to the low pH.

It tastes tart so I was hoping that maybe MLF would have dropped the acid a bit but it hasn't changed at all (numbers still pH=3.2 and TA=9.8). I actually have some ACIDEX Super-K but really want to avoid using it because I wasn't impressed with the results the last time that I did.

I have a chest freezer with a temp controller so was considering putting the wine in there at ~25F for a few months to see if that helps. Any thoughts?

Thanks!


----------



## stickman (Jun 7, 2019)

If you CS the wine now, you'll end up with a pH lower than 3.2. Bench trials with potassium bicarbonate followed by CS are probably needed to determine what the effect will be.


----------



## Johnd (Jun 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Good point. Well as you may recall I over-reacted to what I thought was too high of a pH and low TA in this thread:
> 
> https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/first-all-grape-wine-ta-ph-question.69104/
> 
> ...



What @stickman said is dead on, and right where I was headed. Don’t do anything until you have good readings to work from, and by that, I mean *degassed samples* with your calibrated meter. Carbonated must will not give true readings. 

If indeed you need to drop acid, K bicarbonate is the option to explore at the appropriate time.


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 7, 2019)

stickman said:


> If you CS the wine now, you'll end up with a pH lower than 3.2. Bench trials with potassium bicarbonate followed by CS are probably needed to determine what the effect will be.



Interesting. Was thinking that CS would cause tartaric acid to drop out and raise pH. What is going on that will lower pH? Thanks for the warning!

I’m working on degassing now to try to ensure that’s not throwing my reading off.


----------



## sour_grapes (Jun 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Interesting. Was thinking that CS would cause tartaric acid to drop out and raise pH. What is going on that will lower pH?




Here is a good read for you: http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-TartrateInstability-rev2.pdf


----------



## cmason1957 (Jun 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Good point. Well as you may recall I over-reacted to what I thought was too high of a pH and low TA in this thread:
> 
> https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/first-all-grape-wine-ta-ph-question.69104/
> 
> ...


I'm a little surprised nobody else mentioned this. You said added acid blend, the malic acid in acid blend may not be able to be metabolized into lactic acid. Some can be and some can't be.


----------



## Johnd (Jun 7, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> I'm a little surprised nobody else mentioned this. You said added acid blend, the malic acid in acid blend may not be able to be metabolized into lactic acid. Some can be and some can't be.



Look at my post #7 from the original thread, we covered that ground......


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 8, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> I'm a little surprised nobody else mentioned this. You said added acid blend, the malic acid in acid blend may not be able to be metabolized into lactic acid. Some can be and some can't be.



Yes, I was happy to see that it seems to show pretty clear even though I added the wrong acid. Also, no hint of vinegar or anything like was mentioned as a possible consequence if I moved forward with MLF like I did.


----------



## cmason1957 (Jun 8, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Look at my post #7 from the original thread, we covered that ground......


Sorry. Didn't go that far back in the history of this thread.


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 9, 2019)

Ok, so I fully degassed a sample and unfortunately the pH is still 3.2. Should I also do the TA test again or is it safe to say that I’m going to have to reduce the acid?


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 9, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> Here is a good read for you: http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-TartrateInstability-rev2.pdf



Thanks, Interesting read. The acid reduction powder says that after it’s added that I should CS for 2 weeks so this seems counterproductive to this?


----------



## Johnd (Jun 9, 2019)

St


jsbeckton said:


> Ok, so I fully degassed a sample and unfortunately the pH is still 3.2. Should I also do the TA test again or is it safe to say that I’m going to have to reduce the acid?



Still check the TA, if nothing else, it’ll give you a reference point for future endeavors.


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 10, 2019)

Johnd said:


> St
> 
> 
> Still check the TA, if nothing else, it’ll give you a reference point for future endeavors.



Checked again and no change, still 0.975 so looks like I’ll have to reduce the acid. A few questions:

1) is it normal for the acid to go from 0.675 to 0.975 during fermentation or must there have been something wrong with my initial measurement? I did measure multiple times before adding acid.
2) the acidex I have says that the wine must be fined first. Was hoping not to fine but does this mean I have no choice?
3) both my acid test kit and the acidex that I have say that the wine should be CS after addition but it was noted above that for a low pH CS will actually increase acidity. What should I do?
4) is there a TA that I should go for or do I need to do 3 samples targeting a reduction of 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 and see which seems best?
5) anything else I should be considering?

Thanks!


----------



## Johnd (Jun 10, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Checked again and no change, still 0.975 so looks like I’ll have to reduce the acid. A few questions:
> 
> 1) is it normal for the acid to go from 0.675 to 0.975 during fermentation or must there have been something wrong with my initial measurement? I did measure multiple times before adding acid.
> 2) the acidex I have says that the wine must be fined first. Was hoping not to fine but does this mean I have no choice?
> ...



1. No, something else was off. Initial readings, must not blended and strained, something was off causing you to add acid. 
2. Never used acidex, so cant say. I use K bicarbonate it bench trials to get to my best taste, reproduce on the batch sized scale, then store wine in the cellar at 55 for many months before bottling. Anything that’s going to precipitate out at 55 does so, and no more comes out in the bottle.
3. See # 2. The increase will be in pH, acid strength, but not in quantity of acid (TA). Acid reduction in an acidic wine is delicate, then there’s all of the head kicking for adding acid. Go slow, take weeks if you want, be methodical and plodding, you’ll make improvements.
4. Bench trials for best taste


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 16, 2019)

Well...good thing is went with bench trials!

Was going for 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 reductions of TA. Added about 5 days ago and have stores at 55F.

Results of degassed samples:

0.1 test: actually dropped TA by 0.30 and raised pH to 3.6. Tasted OK.

0.2 test: actually dropped TA by 0.44 and raised pH to 4.1. Tastes bad.

0.3 test: actually dropped TA by 0.51 and raised pH to 4.6. This one was undrinkable.

My k-bicarbonate says 1-1/3 tsp/gal rather than by weight so I weighed this volume and then used that to get weight which I scaled down. I checked my math again ad came up with same additions so not sure why it’s so far off.

Thinking that I am going to do 3 new bench trials using 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 of the amount that was supposed to give me the reduction of 0.1 for these trials.

I was also going to CS this sample just to see what difference it makes on pH. 

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## stickman (Jun 17, 2019)

Don't use any conversions from volume like tsp, that's just a rough guide for those that don't have a scale. For the trial, weigh the potassium bicarbonate directly, use 0.673 g/L to remove approximately 1 g/L tartaric. If your final pH happens to be around 3.6, then it probably wont change much during CS, but pH at this point is not the main concern, main concern is taste. CS will cause an additional 25% to 50% of acid reduction depending on pH as well as other factors, so use less potassium bicarbonate for the main batch than what is determined during the trial. As @Johnd said, go slow, you can always add more if needed.


----------



## jsbeckton (Jun 17, 2019)

stickman said:


> Don't use any conversions from volume like tsp, that's just a rough guide for those that don't have a scale. For the trial, weigh the potassium bicarbonate directly, use 0.673 g/L to remove approximately 1 g/L tartaric. If your final pH happens to be around 3.6, then it probably wont change much during CS, but pH at this point is not the main concern, main concern is taste. CS will cause an additional 25% to 50% of acid reduction depending on pH as well as other factors, so use less potassium bicarbonate for the main batch than what is determined during the trial. As @Johnd said, go slow, you can always add more if needed.



Yeah, I really didn’t like doing the conversion but the product that I had didn’t have any other dosing info. I was wondering if all k-bicarbonate was the same so I could use more accurate weight measurements that I found online but can try as you suggested above. 

I did note that Midwest supplies states that you are supposed to use 1g/L for a 0.1 reduction so maybe every brand is a bit different?


----------



## Johnd (Jun 17, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> I did note that Midwest supplies states that you are supposed to use 1g/L for a 0.1 reduction so maybe every brand is a bit different?



There may be brands with different concentrations, but the ones that I've used have all performed in the range of what @stickman indicated, doing way more than anticipated, and you just never know how a wine / must will react, as they are ALL different. The slow, methodical, plodding adjustments of acid are for just that reason, you can always add more, but it's super hard to take it back............


----------



## jsbeckton (Aug 27, 2019)

Ok, so I did bench trials and then added K-bicarbonate. Bench trials suggested it would come out to TA of .67 and a pH of 3.4. It was close at a TA of .71 and a pH of 3.3. Tastes pretty good but a touch tart and looks pinkish purple due to the low pH. Would you guys tweak it again to try and bump the pH up to 3.4 or leave it alone?


----------



## Boatboy24 (Aug 27, 2019)

I'd leave it. You're bound to end up at 3.5 and be asking yourself the same question again.


----------

