# making wine the old-fashioned way



## esdubyajay (Sep 18, 2011)

Hi. I am new to wine making and to this forum.

I live in Turkey and I am unable to find many of the commerically available sets/products for wine making here. But we have so many grapes this year that I figured it was time to learn to make wine, even if it is the old-fashioned way!

I have collected, destemmed and crushed my grapes. I stir it each day to get the skins back into the mixture. It has been fermenting for 6 days so far. I did not add any yeast, sugar, or water. It seems to be fermenting well, but I don't know how to tell when it is ready.

Since I do not have any equipment to measure alcohol content, how can I know when it has fermented long enough? Are there some signs of activity that I should be watching for? I don't want it to turn into vinegar!

Thanks for your help.


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## Rocky (Sep 18, 2011)

Without knowing the original sugar content and a hydrometer, it will require an educated guess to know when to begin protecting it from air. What kind of vessel is the wine in at present? What kind of vessel will you use for the secondary fermentation period? Have you noticed a slowing of the fermentation process?

In any case, you are probably at or getting close to the point at which you should make the transfer. I have made a lot of wine from grapes without knowing the sugar content (except by taste) or having the benefit of a hydrometer. I would be happy to help but I need a little more information.


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## Sirs (Sep 18, 2011)

well as long as it keeps making a cap it is fermenting as it gets closer to being done the cap will get where it stirs in easier as there is less of the skins at tops as long as it's foaming when you start to stir then it's working. once it gets to where it not working alot very little foam strain the mixture into another and get off all the skins and most of the sediment. Taste it and see how it tastes, should be getting an alcohol taste in it abit by now.


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## Larryh86GT (Sep 18, 2011)

Sirs said:


> Taste it and see how it tastes, should be getting an alcohol taste in it abit by now.



I agree with this. You should be able to taste when it is dry or near dry. Or vinegar if that is the way it goes. Good luck.

Larry


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## esdubyajay (Sep 19, 2011)

Thank you all for your answers.

Rocky, I wish I knew where to get the equipment to do the measurements locally, but I've decided now is the time to live. I can't always wait for everything to be exactly right, right? Besides, they must have done it this way years ago, at least that's my logic! 
My present vessel is a small plastic garbage can. There may only be a few gallons in it. I'll probably use a similar vessel for the secondary fermentation. Is that ok? The fermentation doesn't appear to be slowing. It forms a pretty solid cap each day and there are a lot of bubbles. Should I be listening for a lessening of fizzing? (By the way, I was in Montepulciano for a week this summer and we went to Montalcino where I had some Brunello. Great stuff... I want to move to Italy!)

Sirs, thanks for the tip about the cap. It is still pretty substantial. I'll start paying attention to it more. It certainly smells like it's fermenting, I just don't know when to stop.

Larry, am I really at risk of making vinegar? Is it a fine line that is crossed quickly, or do I have some leeway?

Thanks, again, everyone!


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## Sirs (Sep 19, 2011)

if its fermenting good you should be ok it'll let you know when to strain off the solids it will die down to almost nothing in a day or so. One day you'll stir the cap and it'll foam up like normal then net day you go to stir and it'll be like the foam isn't there anymore just a little bit bubbling up thats when it is about ready. If you tranfer it inot another vessel at that time and strain it good then you should be fine to let it sit just cover it good with a cloth and some type of lid that will snap on it somewhat secure if you can't get to a place that has airlocks and such


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## robie (Sep 19, 2011)

There has to be a way, since winemakers of old did not have hydrometers. Of course they had dad and grandpa to stand over them to show them the correct way.

Wish I knew what type of grape and how fast your natural, native yeast do their work. Problem is, CO2 bubbling up can make you think you are still fermenting, when it is only CO2, so it is difficult to know when fermentation is really finished.

When it becomes time, do you have a way to protect the wine from all oxygen?
Do you have an air lock? If not, you can make one with a sealed top that has a small hole drilled into it. Hook a hose to the hole (seal around the hose and hole well) and the other end of the hose place under the water of a jug or bottle filled with a sanitizing solution like water and kmeta or vodka. make sure this jug is lower than the bottom of your fermenter.

If you can do the above, when the wine has fermented for about 7 to 8 days (about right now), stir the wine; wait about two hours for the gross lees to settle; go ahead and rack wine to this container and add the air lock. (By stirring first and letting it settle, you will be leaving behind the gross lees but taking the yeast with you.) Leave it there for about 15 more days at a nice room temperature. Don't open the container during this time.

Unless the yeast are very slow fermenters, the wine should be dry by then. Now you can taste the wine to determine if it is still sweet. If not sweet, go ahead and rack again to a clean container. You really should have some KMeta to add to the wine at this time to protect it from bacteria and oxidation.
If the wine is still sweet, very gently stir up the yeast from the bottom, replace air lock; wait another week then taste again and repeat as necessary. 

Good luck!


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## Rocky (Sep 19, 2011)

You will soon be getting to the point at which you must protect the wine from air. You say it is in a small plactic garbage can and that is fine for now. For your secondary fermentation, you must have a vessel that keeps air out of the wine. As you reach the point where fermentation slows appreciably, you will need to transfer it to another vessel in which the wine can be protected. Large glass bottles or jugs will work well as long as they can be fitted with a stopper and an airlock. If you do not have a commercial airlock, you can fashion one with a length of plastic tubing inserted into the cork or stopper and with the other end submerged in a jar of water. Keep the jar of water lower than the bottom of the wine vessel. You will see CO2 bubbles escaping from the tube in the jar. This means that gas is exiting the wine and no air is getting into it. Of course, you must be sure that the end of the tube is always submerged in the water.

I spent a month in Pienza, which is roughly between Montalcino and Montepulciano. Do you remember the name of the Brunello that you had in Montalcino? We went the the vineyard _Le Presi_ and had quite a bit of Brunello. Where did you stay in Montepulciano?


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## robie (Sep 19, 2011)

esdubyajay said:


> Larry, am I really at risk of making vinegar? Is it a fine line that is crossed quickly, or do I have some leeway?
> 
> Thanks, again, everyone!



I am not Larry, but if you do not seal up the wine with an air lock, it will oxidize. As it oxidizes, over weeks it will eventually turn to vinegar. Just keep it sealed from air after you rack it from the bucket it is in right now.

Until you are able to properly stabilize and protect with Kmeta, I would plan on drinking the wine within 6 months.


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## robie (Sep 20, 2011)

Funny! I woke up this morning with the realization that you likely have not pressed your wine, yet, either. You had written you destemmed and crushed your grapes only.

When you get ready to move from primary to secondary you will need to press the grape skins, seeds and remaining stems off. You won't want to take the skins and other such solids to secondary. The juice is what will go into your secondary container under air lock.

Sorry I missed that!


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## esdubyajay (Sep 27, 2011)

You have all been so helpful. Thank you.

I hope I haven't left it fermenting too long. Life has gotten really busy and I have not been able to press and move it to the secondary storage. I stir it each day, however, and it appears to be fermenting. I have tasted it a bit and it doesn't seem to be moving towards vinegar yet. I think I have better press and transfer it tomorrow.

I plan to put it in a glass jar with a rubber seal and clamp top. Will that be ok? Do I still need to rig up an airlock contraption like a couple of you have described? I remember reading somewhere that I need to fill the container close to the top. Perhaps that will take care of the extra air in there?

I have done quite a bit of reading on various websites and manuals, but as a hands-on guy, doing the job is really where the rubber meets the road for me!

Rocky, we stayed at La Terraza di Montepulciano, a delightful pansyon near the top of the old city. I don't recall the Brunello that we drank in Montalcino. My father-in-law is the real wine collector and he took us to his supplier. lol Great fun!

Thanks again for all of your help.


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## Rocky (Sep 27, 2011)

I would really recommend an airlock of some sort. Even if you can fashion a rubber tube on the sealed top with its end in a bottle of water. In a sealed container, there is always the danger of too much gas and the container breaking.

When you say "near the top" of the old city of Montepulciano, that is a real climb! We made that climb a couple times and it is not easy for a person my age. There was a large square at the top with a nice restaurant/wine bar in one corner. I recuperated there before starting the descent.


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## naperwineguy (Sep 28, 2011)

My guess is that most likely the use of the indigenous wild yeast strain which is at work here will not be robust enough to carry the fermentation of these grapes through to complete dryness. There are situations at wineries where there is enough presence of the culture yeast strain they prefer, in the vineyard that they no longer require innoculation of the must, but you do not state the actual source of the grapes, so this might not be a possibility for you.

Anyway - 10 to 12 days on the skins in an active ferment is usually long enough. But as others state, without a hydrometer, its tough to know exactly when primary fermentation is complete. 

Another concern would be yeast nutrition. Stressed yeast will begin to produce the dreaded rotten egg smell which is hard to remove from your wine. You need to monitor this closely, and at the slightest hint of SO2, splash rack your wine off of the lees into a clean vessel.

At 10 to 12 days in - I would press, and transfer into your secondary and allow the fermentation to try and complete - if it will at all. 

Good luck


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## robie (Sep 28, 2011)

People have had to improvise for centuries, you may also have to do so.

It is not the recommended way of checking for the presence of sugar, but in your remote location there in Turkey and lack of access to a hydrometer, you can taste the must to determine if there is any sweetness left in the wine. 

The wine will also be tart at that point, but looking passed the tartness, once you taste no sweetness at all, leave the wine fermenting for 3 or 4 more days, then rack. Just make sure you have a good taster for sweets!!!

THIS IS NOT THE RECOMMEND WAY! Never use this method unless you have no alternative, as it is not going to be very accurate. If you can't afford a hydrometer, borrow one before trying this!


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## naperwineguy (Sep 28, 2011)

naperwineguy said:


> Another concern would be yeast nutrition. Stressed yeast will begin to produce the dreaded rotten egg smell which is hard to remove from your wine. You need to monitor this closely, and at the slightest hint of SO2, splash rack your wine off of the lees into a clean vessel.



BTW - I meant will develop an H2S problem not an SO2 one that I stated above....


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## CowboyPhil (Sep 28, 2011)

You know I had a friend once that said he never used an airlock, instead he took a normal childs ballon and stretched it over the top. then useing a needle he poked a hole in it, it would let gas out but the hole was too small to let oxygen back in if the balloon started to deflate. 

I am also a beginner so I have no idea if this would work at all. This old timer from deep woods mississippi used it all the time, and I have to say his wine was GOOD! But I was 16 and he would sell me a bottle for $4.00 so what did I know about the taste of good wine back then, I also liked the taste of Mad Dog 20/20 back then.


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## esdubyajay (Sep 29, 2011)

you guys are sure teaching me a lot about wine making!

I've read about the balloon method on other websites, maybe I'll try that. I guess what I don't understand is if this is the storage method until racking, or just until there seems to be no gas left? I haven't quite wrapped my mind around all of the steps yet.

I will taste it for remaining sweetness, Robie, and look for that rotten egg smell, Naperwineguy. Thanks for the hints. I think I will be pressing it this evening. I wonder if I can find a 2 liter bottle to use that a balloon would attach to on the top.... I'll let you know how it works!

Thanks again.


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## robie (Sep 29, 2011)

esdubyajay said:


> you guys are sure teaching me a lot about wine making!
> 
> I've read about the balloon method on other websites, maybe I'll try that. I guess what I don't understand is if this is the storage method until racking, or just until there seems to be no gas left? I haven't quite wrapped my mind around all of the steps yet.
> 
> ...



Yep, as a last resort the balloon will work.
You would use the balloon method once the wine is pressed and racked into a clean container. While the wine is in the primary, there is a lot of CO2 being expelled. That CO2 will protect the wine. Once you press the wine and rack it, there won't be enough CO2 to protect it from oxygen. This is when the balloon should be used.

The balloon would stay on the wine until the wine is either bottled or about 3 months into bulk aging, which ever comes first. If you age more than 3 months, I would completely seal the container of wine after 3 months. 

Don't punch the hole when the balloon is full of CO2; do it when it has just a little CO2 in it, so it won't split open (burst).

I know it is a challenge for you, but it is kind of interesting to have to improvise as you are having to do. You really are having to do it "the old-fashioned way". You know they haven't always had Kmeta, glass carboys, air locks and sorbate. Somehow they found a way; you can, too. 

Please let us know how things are going for you as the wine progresses.


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## Giovannino (Sep 30, 2011)

Unfortunately I'm reading this a little too late but I was thinking that during your wait you could have ordered over the net.

It would be interesting to see photos of what you did too.

Good luck, hope this turns out well for you.


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## esdubyajay (Oct 2, 2011)

*I did it... and so far so good*

Hi eveyrone. I did it and so far it seems to be ok. I used the balloons since that's what I was able to find easily. It didn't make as much as I had hoped, only about 4 liters, but since this is my first time, I am just happy to be learning. I have some white grapes I still haven't picked because they aren't sweet enough yet. I'd like to see what I can do with them, but I think they have to be done without skins, right?

Anyway, I have a few pics I can post. I am afraid I probably didn't use the best techniques, so be gentle if I am a disgrace to winemakers!  Presently my wine is in 4 one-liter Diet Coke bottles with balloons on the tops. (Un)fortunatley I didn't take a picture of that! There doesn't appear to be much CO2 action going on if any as the balloons are pretty limp. If you understood correctly, I should leave them like that for a few months, then rack the wine?

I have done some reading which seemed to indicated that I need to siphon it a few times prior to the finally racking to get rid of the lees. I used cheese cloth to strain it already but there is still quite a bit already at the bottoms of the bottles. Should I do that once a month for the next 3 momths, then rack it?

Thanks for your suggestions.


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## Rocky (Oct 2, 2011)

That is looking very good. Nice job.

To answer some of your questions: 

Yes, white grapes are normally pressed immediately and only the juice is captured and fermented. There are exceptions, however, and some people process them just like red grapes.

How often and how many times you rack the wine depends on how clear it is. You say there is a lot of sediment (lees) on the bottoms of the bottles now, so it looks like you will rack at least twice. Once to get it off those heavy lees and once more (hopefully) when it clears.

I don't think the cheese cloth will be effective in the future. You were correct to use it for the first transfer, but from now on, just let the wine clear on it own. There are fining agents that you can buy to help this along.

Is there any reason why you are not ordering chemicals like fining agents and equipment like a hydrometer and airlocks? If it is a financial consideration, I apologize for asking. If not, there are surely places in Europe to buy these products. Companies in the US even ship over seas.

One last comment. You are using 1 liter Diet Coke bottles and if that is the only thing you have available, it will have to do. I would highly recomment glass bottles of some kind rather than the plastic bottles.


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## esdubyajay (Mar 20, 2012)

*better late than never, I hope...*

Rocky and others... well, thanks for not giving up on me! I just got around to transfering the wine. (Ha... I accidentally wrote 'wife'!)

I have skimmed off the lees and it is now in wine bottles. I think I will need to do that once more as it clarifies, right?

I had a wine making Bible pdf that I had found somewhere but not can't seem to locate it, so I did what I remembered.

I am afraid that I will be a disgrace to wine makers around the world. But I figure it is all a learning process.

How long should I wait until I transfer it again?

Thanks. Here's hoping that late is better than never....

Steve


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## JohnT (Mar 21, 2012)

esdubyajay said:


> Rocky and others... well, thanks for not giving up on me! I just got around to transfering the wine. (Ha... I accidentally wrote 'wife'!)
> 
> I have skimmed off the lees and it is now in wine bottles. I think I will need to do that once more as it clarifies, right?
> 
> ...


 

esdu, 

There is no set amount of time at this point. You need to simply let the wine tell you when it is time to rack. Keep an eye on it. When the wine becomes clear, and there seems to be a nicly packed layer of lees, then it is time to rack. 

You need to also limit the number of times you rack. By rule of thumb, you should only need to rack 3 times. For me, this is normally at 2 weeks, 2 months, and 6-8 months. 

johnT.


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## jswordy (Mar 21, 2012)

Nice thread to read! Very interesting, and you are doing well! 

The tubing method of creating an airlock is superior to using a balloon, so you might try to pick up some clear plastic tubing for your next batch if you don't have a ready-made airlock. You can drill a cork, put in a short piece of rigid plastic or copper tubing, and then attach your plastic tubing to that. The other end goes in a bottle or bowl of water. Some prefer to use vodka.

I think you'll be fine with your natural yeast on this batch. My grandfather made wine the old fashioned way for decades and never added a speck of yeast. I understand the challenge of doing it the old way, and congratulations for trying it.

I can't wait to see more progress photos.

UNDER EDIT: I have done some reading. Wow, you are fortunate in where you live! As many as 1,200 indigenous varieties of grapes, and Turkey is considered one of the oldest winemaking areas of the globe, if not the oldest! A great place to perfect your technique.

Check this out:
http://www.voanews.com/english/news...Resurgence-in-Southeast-Turkey-106079884.html


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## pete1325 (Mar 21, 2012)

What is your temp?


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## CowboyPhil (Mar 22, 2012)

I personally leave my wine in the carboy to age, racking off individual bottles could take Forever


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## esdubyajay (Mar 22, 2012)

*temp? racking basics?*

Hey guys... Pete asked what my temp was... boy am I going to show how clueless I am. What temperature? The room where I am keeping the wine?

Also, help me with racking. should the bottle be upright or laying on their sides? Remember that wine making supplies are not readily available... can I reuse old corks? That's what I've done cuz that's all I had. But without a cork thing-a-ma-jig, I wasn't able to get the corks all the way in... is that a problem? Am I doomed?!

If nothing else, I am learning just how much I don't know about this!

Thanks again.


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## Randoneur (Mar 22, 2012)

What is the temperature of the room where you are keeping the wine?
Did you add any Sulfur or Potassium Metabisulfide to the wine when you put it in the bottles? If not, then at normal room temperature it will naturally start to reduce the malic acid in the wine through bacterial fermentation. This is normal and can benefit the wine, but you will likely see the corks start to push out or you will be carbonating the wine. That is why an air lock is used, it allows the gas to escape without letting fresh air in. If you cannot make the air lock, then use a balloon. The corks could even pop out and make a mess.


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## esdubyajay (Sep 18, 2012)

Hi! Well, the post I worked on earlier this afternoon seems to have gotten lost in cyberspace. Oh well! I have a couple of things I want to ask.

1. Update on last year's wine: Last year was my first year, and some of you have been following my questions and have been very helpful. Thanks!

I just looked at it again. I last racked it about 6 months ago, I assume. It was quite cloudy. Each bottle had a thin layer of lees (?) on the top of the wine surface. Since it was in the neck of the wine bottle, however, that's not a lot. Since it was so cloudy I looked at some sites for advice. I haven't added anything commercial to my wine. Just what nature gave me. I read that racking it every month for a few months could help the cloudiness go away. Does that make sense? So I put it all back in one large glass jar with a rubber ring seal and thought I'd wait to see if a month does it any good.

Any other suggestions?

2. NEW WINE! I just picked, destemmed and crushed enough grapes from our yard to fill two 20 liter buckets about 4/5 full each. So, I am starting another batch this year. Now I REALLY wish I'd taken better notes last year. At least I had this thread to go back to! (Thanks!)

I can't remember, should I leave the buckets uncovered? Sealed? Also, I should stir daily to get the must down and mixed in, right? And keep doing that until it isn't fermenting anymore, right? I need to see about purchasing that alcohol content measuring aparatus. lol

Looking forward to more fun!


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## naperwineguy (Sep 19, 2012)

Lees should settle on the bottom of your carboy not in the neck. These items in the neck, do they appear white, powdery, and flowery? Could be a mold growth due to unsterile conditions. My guess would be this, due to the nature of your thread title and the lack of additives to protect your wine.


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## hector (Sep 20, 2012)

A Wine which has been made the old fashioned way should be drunk early . Otherwise it will spoil . 

People in my Country are also used to make Wine this way and the whole Process ( from crushing to drinking ) is 40 days long . 

Have you ever tasted your wine ?

Doesn't it have a flavor similar to Nail polish remover ?

Hector


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## esdubyajay (Sep 21, 2012)

thank you for that info. I think that might be what it is. Though I am disappointed. any ideas of what I could do now?! :-/


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## naperwineguy (Sep 21, 2012)

If you are lucky, the mold growth is only on the surface and not throughout the wine. You need to get the wine that is beneath the mold out of those conditions and into a sanitized carboy without disturbing the surface mold too much. 

Easiest way to do this is to top up the existing carboy using a turkey baster full of liquid (a like wine, or water if you have to) until the surface mold overflows the top of the container. Clean and sanitize a new carboy using a k-meta solution or a sanitizing product such as one-step or B-Brite. Make sure you sanitize any equipment/hoses/syphon tubes which will come into contact with your wine. Rack wine to new sanitized carboy. Add 1/4 tsp of k-meta/5 gal of wine to your wine. Make sure new carboy with wine is fully topped up (within an inch of the top of the carboy) and put a stopper in it (or a stopper with an airlock if wine still has CO2 in it). Then hope and pray the mold does not reappear. 

Good luck!


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## naperwineguy (Sep 21, 2012)

Note - hopefully you've caught this early enough and the whole batch is not ruined. As you are racking, try tasting the wine. If it tastes off, chances are you've lost it and will have to dump it. Not much you can do to bring it back after a certain point.


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## hector (Sep 21, 2012)

esdubyajay said:


> Though I am disappointed. any ideas of what I could do now?! :-/


 
The best thing you should do is READING , READING , READING about the Principles of Winemaking . 

I've read a lot and I'm still learning . 

Don't waste your time making wine this way OR drink it after one month . 

I think your wine should have Ethyl Acetate now . 

Always work CLEAN and HYGIENE .

Try to order online some useful additives such as K-Meta , Tartaric acid and Yeast Nutrient . 

Hector


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## esdubyajay (Sep 21, 2012)

hector said:


> A Wine which has been made the old fashioned way should be drunk early . Otherwise it will spoil .
> 
> People in my Country are also used to make Wine this way and the whole Process ( from crushing to drinking ) is 40 days long .
> 
> ...


 
Hector, thanks for the warning. Why nail polish remover? Do you think it has spoiled? :-( That would be disappointing, but a lesson learned, I guess. 

So, in your experience, you crush and begin the fermentation, then what? Once it has fermented, you strain it then let it sit until 40 days and start drinking?


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## hector (Sep 21, 2012)

esdubyajay said:


> So, in your experience, you crush and begin the fermentation, then what? Once it has fermented, you strain it then let it sit until 40 days and start drinking?


 
I've never made wine the old fashioned way . I meant the other people in my Country who know nothing about the principles of winemaking . 

They do not even wash the grapes before crushing , so that the wild yeast can do the dirty job for them . 

Please read what I wrote in the post #35 . 

Hector


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## robie (Sep 21, 2012)

Actually, in most places, I don't think very many wine makers wash their grapes before crushing. I don't think it is considered necessary. However, I guess if one is making wine the old fashioned way - no sulfites, it probably would be a great idea to wash them first.


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## robie (Sep 21, 2012)

hector said:


> The best thing you should do is READING , READING , READING about the Principles of Winemaking .
> 
> I've read a lot and I'm still learning .
> 
> ...


 
I agree, Hector, I seriously doubt if the juice is any good after so many days just setting there. I think he should smell or taste it and make sure it if OK.


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## GreginND (Sep 21, 2012)

robie said:


> Actually, in most places, I don't think very many wine makers wash their grapes before crushing. I don't think it is considered necessary. However, I guess if one is making wine the old fashioned way - no sulfites, it probably would be a great idea to wash them first.



Agree about the cleanliness without sulfites. But if one were to rely on natural yeasts, would there be enough left after washing the grapes to get fermentation going in a reasonable amount of time? I've never tried to do a natural yeast fermentation so I just don't know.


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## hector (Sep 21, 2012)

robie said:


> However, I guess if one is making wine the old fashioned way - no sulfites, it probably would be a great idea to wash them first.


 
If you wash the grapes , there would be no yeast to do the job then and It will turn to vinegar because of the 

bacterial fermentation , since no sulfites are being used . 

Hector


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## robie (Sep 21, 2012)

hector said:


> If you wash the grapes , there would be no yeast to do the job then and It will turn to vinegar because of the
> 
> bacterial fermentation , since no sulfites are being used .
> 
> Hector


 

I got ya'.

I originally thought that the white, powdery stuff on the surface of grapes is the yeast. I recently read that it isn't yeast. The article said that the yeast is in the small ringed groove where the stem connects to the grape; such a small amount that one can't really see it. Now, I am not going to guaranty this is absolutely correct, but maybe someone can confirm one way or the other.

If that is correct, it is going to be pretty hard to wash it out of that small groove.


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## hector (Sep 21, 2012)

robie said:


> The article said that the yeast is in the small ringed groove where the stem connects to the grape; such a small amount that one can't really see it.


 
Interesting !

Is there any link to that article , so that we can take a look at it ?

Hector


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## robie (Sep 21, 2012)

hector said:


> Interesting !
> 
> Is there any link to that article , so that we can take a look at it ?
> 
> Hector


 
Sorry, no link... that's why I am hedging a bit; I can't back it up.
Wait, but I have to leave so...
I just did a google search on "white powder on grapes" The entry www.chow.... talks about it, I just don't have time to give it to you right now. Take a look. It's not a great link. If I find it Monday, I'll post it. Gotta go!


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## esdubyajay (Sep 22, 2012)

wow! I've got some reading to do. Thank you all for your input.


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## esdubyajay (Oct 1, 2012)

Discouraged here... One of the two tubs I have fermenting now seems to have that white flaky stuff in it. I think someone said that was mold. They have both been covered with lids and even a towel on top. the other seems ok still. It's been about 3 weeks, I think.


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