# Grocery store grapes are cheap!



## brottman (Aug 4, 2015)

My local grocery store has 3 different table grapes (green, red, and purpleish). All are selling for 99c per pound. Would these grapes be worth picking up at that price to make into wine?


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## gotbags-10 (Aug 4, 2015)

I made a batch of white wine once from the seedless green grapes from the grocery. Worst wine I've ever had. YMMV


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## dralarms (Aug 4, 2015)

Not enough body.


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## dralarms (Aug 4, 2015)

You might juice 10 gallons, and then cook that down to 5. Then it might be tasty.


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## Bartman (Aug 4, 2015)

If you have ever worked with wine grapes, you can tell very quickly why grapes are divided in to "wine" and "table" grapes. What makes a good table grape? Big, juicy, not much pulp or skin relative to the water content, and no seeds; those are all traits that make for poor wine if the juice is fermented. Small, fleshy, seeded - all are characteristics that are necessary for a tasty, complex, smooth finished wine.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 5, 2015)

There's a reason people aren't rushing to the grocery store to make wine...


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## JohnT (Aug 5, 2015)

The PH Levels and Brix of table grapes are nothing like that of wine grapes. You will need to add a TON of sugar and a TON of acid, adding to your all over cost.

Like mentioned before, the tannins, flavor, body are simply not there in table grapes.

Also, that is not such a bargain. A full lug (36 pounds) of California cabernet (for example) costs me anywhere from $30 to $32. That works out to .83 to .88 per pound. 

There is nothing wrong with experimentation, but I would not get my hopes up.


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## ibglowin (Aug 5, 2015)

There is actually as reason they are called "table" grapes" as opposed to "wine grapes" LOL


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## brottman (Aug 5, 2015)

I figured as much, but thought I'd ask anyway. Thanks everyone - I'll pass


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## jswordy (Aug 5, 2015)

brottman said:


> I figured as much, but thought I'd ask anyway. Thanks everyone - I'll pass




These folks all miss a point, and that is that Thompson (or "table") grapes have had their role in commercial winemaking for decades. Many tons are harvested and made into wine in California every year. 

The wine made from straight Thompsons is a great addition to fruit wines to add "vinosity" without imparting other flavors.

It is also used in some "wine grape" blends as an adjunct and extender, where it can smooth harsh tannic flavors by dilution without diminishing alcohol content. People would be amazed at how many of their varietal wines have a percentage of table grape wine in them without their knowledge. 

For this reason, it is useful in home winemaking as a topping off and blending wine, provided the color is the same as the base wine. 

Personally, I make it as white wine and oak it, always keeping a few bottles around as a mixer (I am down to my last one!). It turns a sort of rose color with the oaking. It is an excellent way to infuse oak character by blending into a finished wine in very exacting amounts to a desired standard. Like you say, it is cheap to make.

Last but certainly not least, millions of gallons of Thompson wine has been consumed as wine coolers. Gallo developed the first ones, way back in the '60s. Try it yourself! Make and stabilize the wine, then use a variety of ingredients - from frozen concentrates to snowcone flavorings to tequila and cocktail mixers - to concoct a cooler flavor you like. If you use fruit concentrates, you may need to allow it to settle. Clear concentrates are good to bottle. Bottle in beer bottles and enjoy. Welch's white concentrate also can be used in this way.

Folks who dismiss out of hand certain grape varieties or recipes miss out on the adventure of winemaking that can only be gained by exploring and experimenting.


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## grapeman (Aug 5, 2015)

They are basically $1 a pound- not cheap in terms of wine grapes. You can buy some very nice wine grapes for a buck a pound. Save your money and buy the real thing.


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## JohnT (Aug 6, 2015)

jswordy said:


> These folks all miss a point, and that is that Thompson (or "table") grapes have had their role in commercial winemaking for decades. Many tons are harvested and made into wine in California every year.
> 
> The wine made from straight Thompsons is a great addition to fruit wines to add "vinosity" without imparting other flavors.
> 
> ...


 

I hear you JS. Thompson's is often used as a "filler" or "Enhancer". There is nothing wrong with making wine out of Thompsons, but I still want to set the right expectation especially when the Thompsons grapes cost more than high quality wine grapes. One can not ferment Thompsons into a quality chardonnay.


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## jswordy (Aug 6, 2015)

JohnT said:


> I hear you JS. Thompson's is often used as a "filler" or "Enhancer". There is nothing wrong with making wine out of Thompsons, but I still want to set the right expectation especially when the Thompsons grapes cost more than high quality wine grapes. One can not ferment Thompsons into a quality chardonnay.



I am looking and looking, JohnT, trying hard to find where anyone ever said they could "ferment Thompsons into a quality chardonnay"! But then, not all of us like a "quality chardonnay" - which is a matter, I might add, of great subjective judgment.

I think I was very accurate in my post about the uses of table grape wine. Please point out anyplace I was not. The Gallo Family has made millions of dollars on it. I also cannot buy "high quality wine grapes" - again, a very subjective matter - where I live for less than the 39 cents a pound I often pay for table grapes in the height of the season. Heck, I can't buy muscadines for that! And I know you do not feel those are "high quality," although many a Southerner would argue the point and they have brought me medals from as far away as - gasp! - California.

Personally, I am not in the hobby just so I can whip up a bottle of snob appeal. Heck, if I want that, I should just go out to my wine shop and buy a high-dollar bottle - that will be much more impressive to others, wouldn't you say? "Oh my God, this cost $100, so it is obviously good!"

You know, 49% of that varietal can be something else. 

What I'm talking about is FORGETTING about those standards set up in the mind by what others might think, not letting those standards limit the winemaking adventure, and jumping with both feet into experimenting to see what is possible.

Tell you what, straight blueberry wine (oh dear, not made with grapes??!) blended with oaked white table grape wine is a heavenly thing. People who know their fruit wines can't quite put their finger on what it is you did to make it so good.

I agree that the flavors of various grapes and ingredients should not be overstated - again, something I have not seen done here - but in my view, flat-out dismissing varietals, types or techniques does no service to beginners. It limits them from experimenting. I get tickled then, when I find out that the person or people who are dissing them have never, ever tried them. Ever.

If E&J Gallo did not have a surplus of cheap table grape wine they had to figure out how to unload, they would never have created wine coolers and would have missed out on millions of dollars in revenue. Experiment!


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## JohnT (Aug 6, 2015)

jswordy said:


> I am looking and looking, JohnT, trying hard to find where anyone ever said they could "ferment Thompsons into a quality chardonnay"! But then, not all of us like a "quality chardonnay" - which is a matter, I might add, of great subjective judgment.
> 
> I think I was very accurate in my post about the uses of table grape wine. Please point out anyplace I was not. The Gallo Family has made millions of dollars on it. I also cannot buy "high quality wine grapes" - again, a very subjective matter - where I live for less than the 39 cents a pound I often pay for table grapes in the height of the season. Heck, I can't buy muscadines for that! And I know you do not feel those are "high quality," although many a Southerner would argue the point and they have brought me medals from as far away as - gasp! - California.
> 
> ...



js, i meant no offense. i am just saying that most would rather pay less for quality wine grape than more for thompsons.


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## syncnite (Aug 7, 2015)

"These folks" didn't miss the point. You can talk all day about the history of bad wine. But newbies don't require that as much as the good advice to not waste their time and money on table grapes. No one who makes decent wine would use them. Of course there's one exception to everything and we'll hear about it in 3, 2, 1...


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## wineforfun (Aug 7, 2015)

syncnite said:


> No one who makes decent wine would use them.



Oh boy, here we go again. And what exactly determines "decent wine"? NAPA Valley gurus? Bordeaux makers? 

Wine and taste are all relative to who is drinking it. Now for me, Barefoot wine is not really enjoyable, although tolerable at times. With that said, for some, it is the holy grail of wine. Now who is to say it is swill? 
Who is to say it is not the holy grail of wine? Me? You? So-called wine snobs? I think not. 

Everyone has a palate for what they like. It doesn't make one wine more "decent" than the other.


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## Bartman (Aug 7, 2015)

Sure, everyone has the right to their opinion and no one should say what your personal preferences should be. But that's beside the point - the OP was asking are some generic grocery store grapes (no indication they were Thompson grapes - only that they were "green, red, and purpleish") for $.99/lb worth buying to make into wine. Clearly, the majority opinion is "no", but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree or ELSE! I sincerely doubt Gallo was buying their Thompson grapes at the grocery store for anywhere close to $1/lb, so that's a non-sequitur. Is there a price where generic grocery store table grapes may be worthwhile to buy to make into wine? Sure, but not for the same price as what French varietals will be selling for in a couple months - at least, not if I am spending my money. But others are free to spend their money however they wish. Of course:

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." - Janis Joplin


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## JohnT (Aug 7, 2015)

wineforfun said:


> Oh boy, here we go again. And what exactly determines "decent wine"? NAPA Valley gurus? Bordeaux makers?
> 
> Wine and taste are all relative to who is drinking it. Now for me, Barefoot wine is not really enjoyable, although tolerable at times. With that said, for some, it is the holy grail of wine. Now who is to say it is swill?
> Who is to say it is not the holy grail of wine? Me? You? *So-called wine snobs*? I think not.
> ...


 
Not "so called". I AM a wine snob and rather proud of it. 

Wine to me is a cultural and family tradition that goes back over 100 years and I do, unfortunately, turn my nose up at times. I do not mean to offend, it's just how I was built and a matter of standards that I have grown up with. 

I can't help but feel that my opinion should matter just as much as others. If others can voice their opinion, then why shouldn't I be able to do the same? Heck, most all of the answers we give to questions posed are a matter of opinion. Although I voice my opinion, I do try to not be offensive (most of the time).

I have re-read this thread and still do not see how JS seems so offended. I spoke of expectations and cost. I mention that there is nothing wrong with experimenting, I warn (correctly) about low sugar and high PH, and I warn about the lack of body and tannins. I acknowledged that thompsons is often used as filer/enhancer. I also mention that if one is looking for a chardonnay, one should not use thompsons, especially when chardonnay grapes are cheaper. 

Getting back to the matter, In my opinion, quality grapes yield a decent level of sugar (IMHO 20 brix min) and decent acid (again IMHO no less than .50). Table grapes fail on both counts.



Bartman said:


> The OP was asking are some generic grocery store grapes (no indication they were Thompson grapes - only that they were "green, red, and purpleish") for $.99/lb worth buying to make into wine. Clearly, the majority opinion is "no", but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree or ELSE! I sincerely doubt Gallo was buying their Thompson grapes at the grocery store for anywhere close to $1/lb, so that's a non-sequitur. Is there a price where generic grocery store table grapes may be worthwhile to buy to make into wine? Sure, but not for the same price as what French varietals will be selling for in a couple months - at least, not if I am spending my money. But others are free to spend their money however they wish.


 
Bartman, I could not agree more! This is more or less what I was trying to say (although it may not have come out that way).


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## wineforfun (Aug 7, 2015)

JohnT said:


> Not "so called". I AM a wine snob and rather proud of it.
> 
> Wine to me is a cultural and family tradition that goes back over 100 years and I do, unfortunately, turn my nose up at times. I do not mean to offend, it's just how I was built and a matter of standards that I have grown up with.
> 
> ...



Breathe John, breathe. 

While you have self-appointed yourself the WMT Wine-Snob, I was referring to the lot(wine-snobs) in whole, not you personally, or trust me, I would have referenced you by name.

I was just trying to make a point that no one(not you, not me, not anyone) should say with authority what wine is decent and what is not. As I have stated time and time again, it is all relative.

As far as your opinion, or anyone else's for that matter, yes, they all matter and all should be respected, though we won't all agree with each other.

Wine to me is about the process of making it, it tasting good and the buzz I receive. 
I could care less if the grape I am drinking came from a vine or vineyard that some renowned vintner or Louis XIII used to own. That has no effect on whether it tastes good to me or if I like it. I don't need that sort of validation. It either tastes good or it doesn't. 

In closing, I hope you and everyone has a great weekend. Remember, the beauty of our civilization is choice.


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