# Other woods?



## Downwards

Has anybody ever experimented with using other woods besides oak in their wine? It seems to me that we've learned historically that oak is a great flavor in wine as a side effect of it being used for barrels. But does that mean that other woods have nothing to add flavor wise even if they are not as water tight? Now that we can make cubes and staves and such, why not other woods? 
I am thinking about experimenting with apple and cherry, but would think that other mild smoking woods would be worth trying as well..


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## DoodleBug

I had this exact conversation yesterday with my wife. I hope someone has an answer to this.
I am curious as well!


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## GameRoomInc

I cannot testify to what other wood would do to a wine (something I've always wondered myself), but I can tell you that the process for preparing your own wood (smoking etc.) is VERY difficult and length taking years to complete. This is based on my own research and other conversations I've seen.


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## JohnT

Just about any hard wood could be used. 
I have seen chestnut and maple being used with great success.

Stay away from pine (where the sap is more or less turpentine) or any "soft wood any you should be fine.


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## Downwards

I think the process (dry aging etc) should be very similar to folks who age fruit wood for smoking meats. These folks also know which woods are likely to have mild flavors, since they worry about the same things we do with the smoke (well to some extent). I know that the wood won't be toasted, but I have a few messages out to folks who sell smoking wood to please hand select for me a few varieties and pieces that look cleanest, are aged etc. I will cut a few pieces and experiment on an apple wine I think since it should probably show the character of the wood pretty well. 
I'll let you all know how it goes. 
Should I torch it at all first? I am leaning towards no- thinking it might be best to simply see the character of the woods in their regular state. What do you all think?


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## jswordy

Downwards said:


> I think the process (dry aging etc) should be very similar to folks who age fruit wood for smoking meats. These folks also know which woods are likely to have mild flavors, since they worry about the same things we do with the smoke (well to some extent). I know that the wood won't be toasted, but I have a few messages out to folks who sell smoking wood to please hand select for me a few varieties and pieces that look cleanest, are aged etc. I will cut a few pieces and experiment on an apple wine I think since it should probably show the character of the wood pretty well.
> I'll let you all know how it goes.
> Should I torch it at all first? I am leaning towards no- thinking it might be best to simply see the character of the woods in their regular state. What do you all think?



Try some pecan if you can get it.

Cut the wood into thin strips and put it in your oven at 375-400 and "kiln dry it" that way, has been suggested. To char it, then use a propane torch and then use steel wool or sandpaper to lightly brush off the loose carbonized deposits, leaving behind the char only.

White oak where I live is cheap, cheap, cheap. I am flooring a cattle trailer with it, and I do intend to process the scraps for use in wines.

I smoke meats, too. Smoking wood is just stacked outside like firewood and air-dried.


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## Downwards

Box arrived today. I've got pieces of peach, plum, cherry, apricot, apple, and pecan. Ordered from fruitawoodchunks.com . The guy there offered me a sampler pack of woods that he uses for smoking. They are very dry and yet super clean. Taking them later to my friend's garage wood shop to find out what my options are with his tools for getting relatively uniform sizes, then going to torch them lightly with my creme brulee torch. 
I have a batch going of apple/blueberry wine that I'm going to break up into 6 single gallon jugs and I'll try a different wood in each. 

I'll let you all know how it goes!


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## s0615353

I use fresh cedar all the time for grilling, and have thought many times about how it would pair with wine ( I was thinking German whites). I thought I was the only one thinking about using wood other than oak, but I guess not.


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## Duster

This is an interesting concept. I wouldn't use cedar but I don't have a good reason why. Fruit woods sounds interesting.
At some point I read an article that explained why wine barrels are made from oak. I don't remember all of the details but I do recall this being a longstanding concept stemming from wine being transported via ship. The article indicated that barrels used to be made from all hardwoods. Some woods didn't perform as well as others so they were soon eliminated from the mix by the barrel makers. Consumers of the wine slowly begin to notice that wine from the oak barrels had a better, more distinct flavor, making it a more sought after wine. once the request started coming in for wine from oak barrels it didn't take the minemakers long to realize they should only be storing their wine in oak.
I'm sure I botched the whole article and substituted some of my own thoughts into the story but the concept is still the same.
This concept leaves one hole in the theory, the barrel makers may have eliminated a great wood for ageing wine simply because the wood was undesirable for the barrel. With todays carboys and vat fermentors, we really do not need to be concerned with wood grain, absorption quality, durability, ect. for example, Poplar may be a great flavor in wine but the wood split way to easily for the barrel makers to consider it.

I for one am very interested in your guys results and will be following this thread closely.
Exciting stuff, keep it coming.


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## Smartdog

Sebastiani winery used to use redwood barrels, and still has a collection of carved ones at their winery in Sonoma.


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## Rocky

Not to disagree with my friend JohnT, but I had a chestnut barrel once (from Canada) and I did not like the taste it imparted to the wine. Then again, that is just _my_ taste and others may have liked it. I should also add that I like a lot of oak in my reds. One man's food is another man's poison.


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## Downwards

I like oak too, just wondering what else might be good. Apple/ blueberry wine is almost done- 1.020 already, so I'll be trying this soon.


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## Downwards

Picture of a piece of each pre cutting.


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## Downwards

Decided to just split these pieces with a knife. Torched them lightly and then noticed they were pretty moist after, so I decided to put them in the oven for a bit. Here they are as I will package them up and wait for the wine. Spoon for size reference.


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## jswordy

Duster's instincts are correct. Don't use resinous wood in your wine. You will regret it. Like pine, cedar is a resinous wood.


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## jswordy

Rocky said:


> Not to disagree with my friend JohnT, but I had a chestnut barrel once (from Canada) and I did not like the taste it imparted to the wine. Then again, that is just _my_ taste and others may have liked it. I should also add that I like a lot of oak in my reds. One man's food is another man's poison.



I have a Chinese chesnut tree in my front yard (American chestnut will no longer survive to be old enough to fruit), and people stop and beg me to pick up the nuts in fall. I say have at it, I hate them.


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## deboard

I'd have to agree with not using pine for sure, but even though it doesn't use the wood, the wine called Retsina uses pine sap to give it a distinctive flavor. It was unintentional at first, but people developed a taste for it, of course. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retsina


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## david_in_ks

The Austrians sometimes use what they call acacia (Robinia pseudoacacia, what we call black locust in the US) barrels for white wines.

The Italians sometimes use European chestnut for barrels, especially very large barrels that aren't expected to impart as much wood flavor to the wine.

Mulberry is a favorite for distilled spirits in the Balkans.

A lot of alternatives are available in Europe. Check the Wilhelm Eder site: http://www.barrel-shop.com/. It's a bit misleading, you have to follow the Oak Barrels link to get to the non-oak alternatives (also).

david_in_ks


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## blumentopferde

Downwards said:


> Decided to just split these pieces with a knife. Torched them lightly and then noticed they were pretty moist after, so I decided to put them in the oven for a bit. Here they are as I will package them up and wait for the wine. Spoon for size reference.
> 
> View attachment 8390



These chunks look very charred to me. Are you going to clean them somehow?




Rocky said:


> Not to disagree with my friend JohnT, but I had a chestnut barrel once (from Canada) and I did not like the taste it imparted to the wine. Then again, that is just _my_ taste and others may have liked it. I should also add that I like a lot of oak in my reds. One man's food is another man's poison.



I tried a Chardonnay that was aged in chestnut barrels a few weeks ago and it was quite interesting. Very different fom oak, and it had a slightly "medicinal" note. The producer used used barrels though. He said fresh barrels would be too dominant in taste.


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## Downwards

Think they are too charred? They have less than the dark toast Hungarian cubes I bought, but the char is different- more caramelized. Maybe because the wood is younger? The wine they are going into is still clearing so maybe I'll rub some of that off in the meantime.


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## blumentopferde

I'm not an expert in this they just look like they would leave ash residues in the must... But hey! You're experimenting so just try on a small sample to see what happens!


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## Duster

I'm not sure because I have never tried it but I wonder if one could toast them in the oven at 400 degrees for a few hours?


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## Downwards

The Hungarian oak I bought left my fingers black and ashy from handling them. These aren't anything like that. I can't speak to whether either were as they should be, but I used the Hungarian in my elderberry and it tasted great. I think I will try it, but like you mentioned, it's just an experiment. Not the end of the world however it goes.


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## LeChat

I really hope you find interesting results, especially with cherry.

I will have about 20-30 pounds of untreated cherry wood leftovers after I am done doing my wine rack. It would be very cool if I could use the leftovers in wine batches! Anybody in the Ottawa region looking to share this leftover?


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## bchilders

First and foremost I have never done this before but... It might be worth noting that wine barrel wood is usually aged or seasoned to allow the "woodiness" of the wood to soften. You might also try toasting your blocks over some charcoal or wood fire on the grill high enough above the heat for a slow roast. Spritzing with water or soaking before hand will help control the roast.


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## Flip

I once used Mahogany to make a fantastic Port out of some stuck red wine.
I'm trying it again to see if I can give some boring red a bit of a boost.


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## Downwards

blumentopferde said:


> I'm not an expert in this they just look like they would leave ash residues in the must... But hey! You're experimenting so just try on a small sample to see what happens!



Actually it turns out you are right! Haven't done the "experiment" yet, but I weighed out these pieces so that when I do I would be using the same amount of wood per gallon. With all the pieces that were overweight I threw them into a gallon of cyser that was aging. This preliminary test won't tell me much because it is mixed woods and because the cyser was already oaked and has elderflower in it. Bottom line, the taste is so complex it's hard to tell what it did. It certainly tastes different than the rest of that batch, and I like it, but it's hard to distinguish what it did. One thing it did do though, was leave a bunch of ash in the bottom that is really light. Hard to pour from that jug without mixing it all in again. 

The wine that I will be experimenting on with individual woods (plus an oak one and an unoaked one to compare to) is an apple wine. Done fermenting, but not done clearing. I will rub or sand off much of this char from the wood in the mean time, looks like I over torched.


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## skyrat

I really think this is going to be an interesting discussion.

Not to throw a wrench in the thread......Just curious why it seems most folks feel the need to torch the wood. I do a fair amount of meat smoking and never torch the wood prior. Rarely find the need to pre-soak either. 

For use in wine I think pre-baking in the oven (to destroy bacterium) is probably a good idea. The wood flavors are going to come out either way and why mess with what Mother Nature created other than to sanitize.


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## Downwards

You may be right. I was thinking to torch it to simulate a dark toast like I get on some oaks I buy. But really, it might be more interesting to find out what these woods do just plain first so I get a sense of their flavors before trying them toasted as well. But anyway, I bought so much of them (box meant for smoking woods) that I'll have plenty for a long time for wine. I think I'll still use these and just try and pick a favorite out of the bunch. From there I will try that one with various levels of toast. We'll see..


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## BernardSmith

I have a branch from a peach tree that died. How long should I "dry" it at 375 -400 degrees?


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## skyrat

Personally I would refrain from using wood from something that died. There was a reason for it and I would not risk my wine (or meat) with the unknown. 

If the branches were cut fresh at the time you are probably okay. I use only fresh cut then seasoned woods for flavoring (smoking) purposes. Seasoning is typically 1 year of drying on a 2-3" cross section / wheel (usually branch material) and seasoned like firewood (kept in a dry space to let air dry.

Concerning baking...The bake I would use should be just prior to use (to kill off any possible bacterial issues). How long to bake of course depends on how thick and how dry it is. 

Sorry I can't be specific but there are variables that need to be accounted for. If you split the wood into smaller pieces it will of course dry quicker. If you go to bake the wood and it is not completely dry you will see moisture percolate out of the end grain. Not a cause for alarm but you know you will still have sap in the wood. 

Green Hickory wood used in smoking imparts some pretty nasty flavors. I ruined a good slab of bacon this way once. Other green woods I would suspect will likely do the same to your wine.


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## csmithbass

Well, I just tried to make a post, but it apparently got lost in cyberspace. So rather than retyping it all, i'll give you the short version. Feel free to message me for more details if you'd like:

I would caution you to make sure you do your research about the woods, and especially talk to an Arborist before consuming wines made with woods you have not heard of being used before. 

I recently read an article discussing why we can't just ferment any flower for a flower-based wine. The reason being, some flowers, when fermented, produce other toxins (i.e. non-ethanol based compounds) which can be poisonous to humans.

Similarly, while doing research on making wood-based ear jewelry, I found information stating that some exotic-woods, when in contact with the skin, can leach toxins into your body; usually causing black-heads, pimples, or other sores around the area you wear them.

And finally: a fellow mead-maker friend and I were discussing our attempts to use local herbs and plants in our mead. He attempted this with a Boulder, CO native plant. It tasted great, but just a little got him pretty messed up, on the verge of hallucinating. The next morning his eyes were very bloodshot and his skin was yellow. So be careful!

Creativity, and out-of-the-box thinking is excellent. However when using a new substance, please consult an Expert! Find an Arborist who KNOWS the tree; check your local library for information about the chemical make up of the plant; if you have a university near you, see what you can learn.

Do your research before you do harm to yourself!


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## Downwards

Good points! I'm sure that these are safe woods though, as they are used for food purposes. If the woods I've chosen were toxic, I'm sure we'd have lost lots of BBQers over the years. Also, toxic is not the same as poisonous. There are toxic compounds in oak as well I'm fairly certain, but in the amounts we use in wine they wouldn't pose any problems. I wouldn't suggest just grabbing any wood blindly though and just adding it to wine, there is plenty out there that certainly are dangerous.


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## JohnT

Just to weigh in here (yet again).... 

*Toast* - The method used for most coopers is to slowly taost the wood until the desired darkess is achieved. What they are doing is caramelizing the natural wood sugars. Although (on a dark toast) the wood may look burnt, it is what is below that char that matters. 

Another thing that happens is that the wood is "dried". This intensifies what the wood brings to the party.

Toasting wood is a slow and long process. Simply scorching the wood with a blow torch will not give you the same effect. The best thing to do is to bake the wood in the oven. 

*ASH* - You do not want any ash. adding wood ash to your wine would be much like adding lye. If you do have any wood ash after the toasting process, it is important that you scrape and then wash your wood.


*Rocky* - I hear you on the chestnut. I prefer oak, but chestnut is the preferred wood in northern Italy and there are some rather nice wine comming out of that area.


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## csmithbass

In line with BBQ-ers, as we all know, they use something what we typically don't as wine makers:
Fire
Fire/heat, when applied to chemical compounds, changes them in one way or another (i.e. a potentially harmful chemical compound may become inert through the addition of heat). I am no chemist, but I have worked in a field where we altered one substance through simply adding heat. This substance affected the bodily functions differently than if it was never heated.

Poisons and toxins are about as different as squares and rectangles. One is simply a more specific definition of the other.


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## Downwards

I'm not the least worried that I'm going to create any unknown poisons by mixing fruit woods with wine. No more than I'd worry I'm going to create a poison by making wine from it's fruit or from any edible fruit that hasn't been used for wine. If you know of any danger, I'd love to hear about it, but a nonspecific fear of what hasn't been done isn't helpful IMO. If I fear anything here it is that it just won't taste good.


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## skyrat

Downwards said:


> I'm not the least worried that I'm going to create any unknown poisons by mixing fruit woods with wine. No more than I'd worry I'm going to create a poison by making wine from it's fruit or from any edible fruit that hasn't been used for wine. If you know of any danger, I'd love to hear about it, but a nonspecific fear of what hasn't been done isn't helpful IMO. If I fear anything here it is that it just won't taste good.




I'm with you on Downwards on this one concerning fruit / nut woods but appreciate Mr. Basses input as well....

We definitely should research as much as possible what we are putting into our wine / bodies in general. 

Anyone with ref sites that might help please post.....


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## Downwards

In fact, since I've already drunk a gallon of cyser that had some time in all these woods, I already know there is no harm to come from them. This was not part of my experiment in the flavors, just was using up the extra bits after having weighed them out.


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## dmb2613

I do not think you have anything to fear useing any wood from the lower 48


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## Downwards

I'm still holding off on this. The gallon of cyser I did with a mixture of this wood tasted too green or woody.. I don't know how exactly to describe that, but I think this wood needs to age more before I can really give it a fair shake. My next post here will be when this experiment begins!


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## jamesngalveston

never use cedar are pine, both contain pitch, are rosin...not good for wine, it will leach out and ruin the whole batch.


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## Bob1016

There's a long history of using acacia and other woods in Italy and for sherry.
I've used Spanish cedar (not the resinous red cedar) in beer and mead (1oz/6gal) and it adds a nice fruitiness and some extra tannin without the oak flavor (usefull for meads). 
I also have some lychee wood that I hand split into quarters aging/seasoning right now, I'll probably spilt it into staves in a few months and give I a total of 2 years befor using it (toasted first) as cubes or segments.


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## sour_grapes

Actually, my question is somewhat different. I am interested in sticking with oak, but making my own. What if I took a regular ol' piece of red oak from my local big box store, cut it into cubes, and dried it in my oven. Hit it with a torch for a little char, perhaps. Would this be roughly equivalent to the (American) oak cubes I can buy at my LHBS?


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## WI_Wino

sour_grapes said:


> Actually, my question is somewhat different. I am interested in sticking with oak, but making my own. What if I took a regular ol' piece of red oak from my local big box store, cut it into cubes, and dried it in my oven. Hit it with a torch for a little char, perhaps. Would this be roughly equivalent to the (American) oak cubes I can buy at my LHBS?



Nope, the stuff you buy at LHBS is white oak. I have heard that red oak imparts a cat urine taste/smell (no joke).


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## sour_grapes

Okay, that is obviously a good thing to know in advance! Thanks!


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## Downwards

Update! The apple wine I was going to use for this came out so darn good I just didn't want to risk experimenting with it. Catch 22 right? What would be the point of experimenting on one that comes out bad?  anyway once it have some on the rack, I'll start another big batch for the fruit woods. Our stock of home made was almost nothing, but I have lots aging now..


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## pebbles2015

Curious if you ever finished this experiment Downwards?


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## Johnd

pebbles2015 said:


> Curious if you ever finished this experiment Downwards?



Downwards hasn't posted here for over 2.5 years, don't be surprised if you don't get a reply from the OP.


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## Jericurl

Funny that this should pop up today.

I asked this question in another forum and as a result, ended up buying a variety pack from here: http://www.blackswanbarrels.com/honey-comb-barrel-alternative/

I also got this stuff for a tequila lime mead I'm planning. https://www.etsy.com/transaction/1224136301

I'll try to remember to update this thread once I experiment with them.


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## marino

For port, I've seen mahogany barrels and chestnut barrels being used


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