# Vanilla beans - how to use?



## reeflections (Oct 21, 2020)

I'm about to start a 5 gal strawberry/ vanilla batch. 
16lbs frozen strawberries
15 oz golden raisins
vanilla bean(s)

A couple questions for those that have used vanilla beans in the past:

1. I'm looking for *more than a touch* of vanilla flavor but I still want to taste the strawberry. How much bean? - I have 4-5" grade B beans

2. Should I add the vanilla during the primary, secondary, or aging stage? 

3. Read on another thread here that the vanilla keeps getting stronger with age. Would it be a good idea to taste often and remove the bean(s) when the taste is right?


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## Scooter68 (Oct 21, 2020)

For a two gallon batch of Peach Vanilla I used 1/4 of a bean. It was more than enough. The vanilla taste dominates, but it's still good. I would suggest adding after fermentation - during aging and split the batch. Use vanilla bean in only one half of the batch. For 5 Gallon batch, if it was me doing it, I'd use 1/8 of bean in each of two one gallon carboys. If you have a 3 gallon carboy put the other 3 gallons in there with no vanilla. You can taste test over the aging period and you will probably find you will have plenty of Vanilla to go around OR you can always add it to the 3 gallon batch if you are happy after a couple of months. I think I had mine in there for about 4 months total, or maybe 6. It can't be undone but you can always age a little longer and add it in for the extra aging time. 
As far as prepping the vanilla bean - I tried scraping the bean not much good but I did split the bean open.


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## reeflections (Oct 21, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> For a two gallon batch of Peach Vanilla I used 1/4 of a bean. It was more than enough. The vanilla taste dominates, but it's still good. I would suggest adding after fermentation - during aging and split the batch. Use vanilla bean in only one half of the batch. For 5 Gallon batch, if it was me doing it, I'd use 1/8 of bean in each of two one gallon carboys. If you have a 3 gallon carboy put the other 3 gallons in there with no vanilla. You can taste test over the aging period and you will probably find you will have plenty of Vanilla to go around OR you can always add it to the 3 gallon batch if you are happy after a couple of months. I think I had mine in there for about 4 months total, or maybe 6. It can't be undone but you can always age a little longer and add it in for the extra aging time.
> As far as prepping the vanilla bean - I tried scraping the bean not much good but I did split the bean open.



Thanks Scooter! Well that sounds like a good plan. I think I'll give it a shot.

From what I have read, grade A beans are soft and better for splitting/scraping, while the grade B (like I have) is dry and doesn't split and scrape so well. I think I'll just chop 'em and bag 'em. 

.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 22, 2020)

Yup My single bean was too dry to scrap but I was able to cut it lengthwise. Not sure how much good that did. I ended up putting the rest of the bean in old vanilla extract bottle with everclear and now I use a few a drop or two to flavor my coffee now and then.


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## Raptor99 (Oct 30, 2020)

Do you sanitize the vanilla bean in any way? Soak it in vodka?


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## Scooter68 (Oct 31, 2020)

Nope - I put it in once the wine is through fermenting and is already protected by Alcohol, Acidity and K-Meta.


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## Ty520 (Nov 1, 2020)

I would suggest more than the 1/8 of a bean. Whenever I add vanilla to my meads,I typically do 1 bean per gallon for 2 months to make it noticable.

Splitting the bean will help infuse it faster, but is not necessary. I make vanilla extract with whole, un-split beans, and I can reuse them over and over. It may actually be better to not split it so you can control the infusion more slowly.


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## Scooter68 (Nov 2, 2020)

With strawberry I would most definitely NOT use a lot of vanilla bean unless you want vanilla bean wine with a hint of strawberry. You can always add more but you can't take it out once it's in there. I make my peach wines with at least 6-8 lbs per gallon of RIPE peaches with plenty of flavor and still that 1/4 of a vanilla bean pretty much dominated the flavor of a 2 gallon batch. It's Vanilla-Peach wine and I enjoy it but the flavor that is ever present is vanilla not peach. Strawberry is likewise not an overpowering flavor so it too could be easily overwhelmed by any other flavor.


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## reeflections (Nov 2, 2020)

From what I am reading here and elsewhere, it would seem that the amount of bean needed may have a lot to do with the quality of the beans. And maybe something to do with personal taste.

My strawberry is just about to go into 2ndary so it is still vanilla free, but I have taken 4 gallons of apricot that are just into aging and racked it to a 3 gal and a one gallon carboy. I put 1/2 bean into the one gallon to kinda do what @Scooter68 recommended. If it doesn't seem strong enough to mix with the 3 gallons after some time, I'll add more. If it's too strong, I'll add less to the3 gallons and have a little vanilla wine to drink or add to something else. I bought 10 of these beans (graded as B) so my early experiments with the apricot and strawberry should give me an idea of how much to use in the future. 

I will also take some of these beans, which I have re-vacuum sealed, and infuse them in some 190 proof. That infusion would likely make figuring out how much to add more accurate no?


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## Scooter68 (Nov 2, 2020)

reeflections said:


> From what I am reading here and elsewhere, it would seem that the amount of bean needed may have a lot to do with the quality of the beans. And maybe something to do with personal taste.
> 
> My strawberry is just about to go into 2ndary so it is still vanilla free, but I have taken 4 gallons of apricot that are just into aging and racked it to a 3 gal and a one gallon carboy. I put 1/2 bean into the one gallon to kinda do what @Scooter68 recommended. If it doesn't seem strong enough to mix with the 3 gallons after some time, I'll add more. If it's too strong, I'll add less to the3 gallons and have a little vanilla wine to drink or add to something else. I bought 10 of these beans (graded as B) so my early experiments with the apricot and strawberry should give me an idea of how much to use in the future.
> 
> I will also take some of these beans, which I have re-vacuum sealed, and infuse them in some 190 proof. That infusion would likely make figuring out how much to add more accurate no?



Not sure the infusion of 190 proof will do much that you can use for judging That infusion will begin the extraction process but how long and how much flavor... that's a tough one to answer. After thinking about it really I believe the second best method is the split batch process. I believe I left my beans in there for at least 6 months starting right after fermentation finished. That would also be the time with the Alcohol level in the wine is high enough to aid with extracting the flavor. 

The best option would be to simply make your own vanilla extract and add that to the wine once that extract is finished. That process is much like you infusion process but I'd check into the details to be sure. (Ty520 can probably give you directions on that.) That full extraction process is likely to be more efficient than adding the bean to the wine. Not as 'fun' but perhaps a more accurate method. That would allow you to wait until the wine is aged and ready to bottle before adding it. Then you can do a bench trial just as for back-sweetening to get the amount right. Again not as much fun but still probably more accurate and efficient.


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## reeflections (Nov 2, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Not sure the infusion of 190 proof will do much that you can use for judging That infusion will begin the extraction process but how long and how much flavor... that's a tough one to answer. I still believe the split batch process is the best route. I believe I left my beans in there for at least 6 months starting right after fermentation finished. That would also be the time with the Alcohol level in the wine is high enough to aid with extracting the flavor.
> 
> The other option would be to simply make your own vanilla extract and add that to the wine once that extract is finished. That full extraction process is likely to be more efficient than adding the bean to the wine. Not as 'fun' but perhaps a more accurate method. That would allow you to wait until the wine is aged and ready to bottle before adding it. Then you can do a bench trial just as for back-sweetening to get the amount right. Again not as much fun but still probably more accurate and efficient.



I guess I used the wrong term? What is the difference between infusing the bean in 190 proof alcohol and making a vanilla extract?


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## Scooter68 (Nov 2, 2020)

In reality I don't think there is much if any difference. For a source of alcohol you could use vodka or everclear. Here's a couple of links to help but in the end who's to say which is best. I would think everclear would be the purest alcohol but vodka get mentions as well I would wonder if different brands of vodka might change the flavor. 









How to Make Vanilla Extract


You only need 2 ingredients.




www.thepioneerwoman.com













Listen Up, Bakers: You Could Be Saving Lots of Money With DIY Vanilla Extract


Make a never-ending jar of vanilla extract and save yourself a pretty penny.




www.bonappetit.com


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## reeflections (Nov 2, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> In reality I don't think their is much if any difference. For a source of alcohol you could use vodka or everclear. Here's a couple of links to help but in the end who's to say which is best. I would think everclear would be the purest alcohol but vodka get mentions as well I would wonder if different brands of vodka might change the flavor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since my last post I have been finding several links as well, including the two you listed.. I'm under the impression that Everclear 190 is a bit faster to make, but has too much alcohol flavor for some of the uses, like things that are not cooked so the alcohol wouldn't evaporate. I guess for wine it wouldn't matter much - especially if you keep the ABV in mind from the start.

I like the idea of making one large batch extract and removing the beans so, with some experimenting, you would know how much to use more accurately. As you said, like back sweetening.


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## Ty520 (Nov 2, 2020)

reeflections said:


> Since my last post I have been finding several links as well, including the two you listed.. I'm under the impression that Everclear 190 is a bit faster to make, but has too much alcohol flavor for some of the uses, like things that are not cooked so the alcohol wouldn't evaporate. I guess for wine it wouldn't matter much - especially if you keep the ABV in mind from the start.
> 
> I like the idea of making one large batch extract and removing the beans so, with some experimenting, you would know how much to use more accurately. As you said, like back sweetening.




Also consider using rum or bourbon - maybe not necessarily for this wine, but others in the future. They can lend some pretty wonderful flavors. Using 40-60% alcohol would be less harsh and astringent as well.


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## Scooter68 (Nov 3, 2020)

Rum or Burbon will definitely change the flavor of the extract. The second site states that in their description of the process.
The first site I listed notes that the FDA requires commercially produced extract to be at least 74% alcohol by law. Take that for what it's worth.


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## Raptor99 (Nov 7, 2020)

If you are making a vanilla extract, how much would the flavor be different from a commercial vanilla extract? I'm just wondering if it makes a difference.


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## Scooter68 (Nov 8, 2020)

A lot depends on the contents and quality of the commercial product vs the homemade product. In the links I posted previously on this thread, one commercial baker said that the home-made extract the author of the article produced was significantly superior to the commercial products.

The real question is what the best method to extract the most flavor from the beans? Additionally there might be a concern if the extract contains any oils that are not water soluble. I don't have the answer to these two questions but I think the are the most critical to how to get the best flavor into your wine.

As to the effect of everclear on your wine - I don't think you are talking about using very much extract in a 5 gallon batch I would very surprised if it took more than 1 or at most 2 ounces of a good extract to provide the flavor in the wine. Two (2) ounces of everclear is not likely impact a volume of 640 ounces


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## winemanden (Nov 8, 2020)

If you want a Vanilla flavour just for baking, stick a pod in with a jar of sugar.


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## Raptor99 (Nov 8, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> The real question is what the best method to extract the most flavor from the beans? Additionally there might be a concern if the extract contains any oils that are not water soluble. I don't have the answer to these two questions but I think the are the most critical to how to get the best flavor into your wine.



Oil does not mix with water, but oil does dissolve in alcohol to some extent. That's why vanilla and many other extracts include alcohol. The commercial vanilla extract that we use for baking is 35% alcohol. I know that in the case of herbs, some flavors dissolve in water while others are oil based, so they dissolve in alcohol. So I think that the alcohol in the wine might dissolve some of the oils, which is often where most of the flavor is concentrated. I don't know whether you would get more flavor by soaking the vanilla beans in everclear to make your own extract. That would be an interesting experiment to try.


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## reeflections (Nov 8, 2020)

Raptor99 said:


> I don't know whether you would get more flavor by soaking the vanilla beans in everclear to make your own extract. That would be an interesting experiment to try.



I'm gonna try it tomorrow when more beans arrive. My reasoning is for more accuracy. Dropping a bean into the wine is a shot in the dark. @Scooter68 's method off separating a couple of gallons for the beans and then mixing them back to taste one one way of having more control and I'm trying that now with some apricot. But I like the idea of having a known strength of extract so it can be added like back sweetening so I am gonna do that too. Time will tell. 

How well the oils will mix? We'll see. But I think they will be pretty much dissolved in the 85% alcohol and mix in with no problem. Seems that has a better chance than dissolving in the wine alcohol of 10-15%. 

Of course I'm guessing.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 8, 2020)

But beware of the Ouzo effect:



stickman said:


> That was kind of my point also, citrus essential oils that provide aroma and flavor are extracted by the alcohol, but these oils are not soluble in water, so what you have is a dispersion of small droplets of oil creating the haze. The haze is more pronounced if the droplets are of larger size.





sour_grapes said:


> Ahh, the Ouzo effect! Ouzo effect - Wikipedia Good call, Stick!
> 
> Also see: "
> *Looking into Limoncello: The Structure of the Italian Liquor Revealed by Small-Angle Neutron Scattering" https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.8b01858 *


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## Raptor99 (Nov 8, 2020)

Thanks for posting this. My chemistry is not good enough to understand all of it, but I noticed the following:

 Decreasing the ethanol concentration by mixing with water might cause the oil to form droplets. That was something that I had been wondering about.
 The study was done with citrus oils. I wonder if the oils in vanilla beans would react the same way?
 The amount of vanilla bean oil that we are introducing to the wine is very small, perhaps much less than the amount of oil in Limoncello.

If anyone experiments with this please let us know if you see any cloudiness develop when you add vanilla extract to your wine. I am interested in this because I am thinking about experimenting with other additions such as cocoa nibs that might introduce some oil.


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## reeflections (Nov 8, 2020)

Being more of an artist than a scientist, and certainly not a chemist, both of those links went *way* over my head.

I guess if a slight to gnarly haze develops, I'll decide if the flavor is worth the haze. It's not like I'm entering it in a competition.

Since I am just beginning to experiment with this, it will be a few months before I can post my findings, but I most certainly will.


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## Scooter68 (Nov 8, 2020)

Sounds like a potentially frustrating experience. I would suggest a simple experient with a small amout of wine and a single drop of extract - IF indeed you make your own or decide to try store bought extract.

Of course there is the fall back of simply adding vanilla bean to small amount of the wine, as I suggested before. Just take note of how much bean you add so you can repeat the results later (Or go heavier/lighter).

Ah I knew there had to be some reason just using vanilla extract would be too simple.


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## joeswine (Nov 9, 2020)

If it were mine I'd split and add 1, whole bean in the primary, that should work.
If your looking to add an extract then go to Olive Nation they have an alcohol base vanilla bean extract which is quite nice .
Once your in the clearing stages you can adjust more to taste.
.


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## reeflections (Nov 9, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Sounds like a potentially frustrating experience. I would suggest a simple experient with a small amout of wine and a single drop of extract - IF indeed you make your own or decide to try store bought extract.
> 
> Of course there is the fall back of simply adding vanilla bean to small amount of the wine, as I suggested before. Just take note of how much bean you add so you can repeat the results later (Or go heavier/lighter).
> 
> Ah I knew there had to be some reason just using vanilla extract would be too simple.



Thanks again @Scooter68. As I have said, I am actually using both of your suggestions. I have already used a bean in 1 gallon of 4 gallons of apricot after fermentation. I also will be making extract to use in the same way I would back sweeten. Since I also have cooking uses for vanilla, I won't be risking much of anything. Experimenting is fun even if there are some occasional frustrations, as long as they don't cost to much. 

I have also started to extract some mint leaves for experimental purposes. 

My goal is to experiment until I can find my own recipes for a couple of wines that my wife and I really like and make them on a regular basis as our "house wines."



joeswine said:


> If it were mine I'd split and add 1, whole bean in the primary, that should work.
> If your looking to add an extract then go to Olive Nation they have an alcohol base vanilla bean extract which is quite nice .
> Once your in the clearing stages you can adjust more to taste.
> .



I was thinking of trying a one gallon batch with a bit of bean in the primary to see what happens. Just went to Olive Nation and it sure looks like a good source for lots of things. Thanks!

There are a lot of opinions here and I appreciate all of them. I hope more will come, especially from those with a lot of experience with V beans. I also hope others that are thinking about the use of vanilla beans will happen across this thread. I expect to post my findings as my experimenting continues.


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## joeswine (Nov 10, 2020)

Always think outside the box .


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## joeswine (Nov 10, 2020)

Vanilla Bean extract


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## reeflections (Nov 11, 2020)

joeswine said:


> Vanilla Bean extract



Cool! I've already started my extracting but I'm curious about what kind of recipes you are using. Vodka or Everclear? Ratio of beans to alcohol to cinnamon? What size are those mason jars in the pic?


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## joeswine (Nov 11, 2020)

They're one quart jars, I'm using everclear. If you're using vodka then the potency is going to be a little bit less but very clean no matter what you put in for an extraction does that make sense?


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## joeswine (Nov 11, 2020)

Volume is usually 4 to 5 bean pods per quart slice the bean pods scrape out the insides place everything back into the court jars let them sit for about 2 months at least then you'll have full extraction just always remember less is more when you're using it.
Another very cool way to do it is take three bean pods slice them open and place them in a Ball jar and fill it with sugar just plain cane sugar let it sit for a month then take the bean pods and the sugar and mix it with two quarts of water make a simple syrup with the mix

You can do the same with cinnamon.


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## reeflections (Nov 11, 2020)

So @joeswine, at what stage do you add vanilla extract to your wine?


This is interesting. I read so many sites that said the same as you about Everclear vs vodka. That the higher proof would be faster and stronger. This seems logical.

But one site that disagreed pointed to a serious study that said something like 24% more vanillain was extracted when using 80 proof vs 190 proof alcohol. I went to the study and that was one of their conclusions. I admit to not being able to understand most of this study, but that was part of their conclusion.

So, I started this experiment. The pint jar on the left is 1oz (about 11 beans) of beans and 8oz Everclear 190. The jar on the right is .8oz beans (that's all I had left) plus 4oz Everclear 190 and 4 oz distilled water. This pic was shot about 24 hrs after the soak began with both jars shook up a bit. The jars were started about 5 minutes apart.

At this stage, the jar with diluted alcohol and 20% less bean is noticeably darker. That was a surprise.


I'm using the type B beans which are supposed to be best for extracting but they are drier. I went by the instructions for extracting that came with the beans.





I like the sound of that sugar method. One more experiment to try.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 11, 2020)

reeflections said:


> So @joeswine
> 
> But one site that disagreed pointed to a serious study that said something like 24% more vanillain was extracted when using 80 proof vs 190 proof alcohol. I went to the study and that was one of their conclusions. I admit to not being able to understand most of this study, but that was part of their conclusion.



Would you mind posting a link to that site or that study?


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## sour_grapes (Nov 11, 2020)

The agriculture of vanilla is truly amazing. Here is a short paper on the subject, if you are interested:


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## reeflections (Nov 11, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> The agriculture of vanilla is truly amazing. Here is a short paper on the subject, if you are interested:



Yes, that is more my level. thanks.

Here is what the other place referred to. Like I say, it was way over my head. I'm sure it's right up your alley.



https://nutrimenti1.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/vanillin.pdf


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## Scooter68 (Nov 11, 2020)

So.... Next time it's Vodka for vanilla extraction - regardless of what the FDA requires for commercial products. (Maybe there is some nefarious plot/reason for the FDA Mandate?)


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## Raptor99 (Nov 11, 2020)

reeflections said:


> So, I started this experiment. The pint jar on the left is 1oz (about 11 beans) of beans and 8oz Everclear 190. The jar on the right is .8oz beans (that's all I had left) plus 4oz Everclear 190 and 4 oz distilled water. This pic was shot about 24 hrs after the soak began with both jars shook up a bit. The jars were started about 5 minutes apart.
> 
> At this stage, the jar with diluted alcohol and 20% less bean is noticeably darker. That was a surprise.



I think that it is possible that there are some substances in the vanilla beans that are water soluble. The everclear has very little water, so less of those compounds are extracted. I don't understand most of the study that you attached, but I did notice that methods 2a and 2b used different concentrations of ethanol. The lower concentration extracted a little more vanillin and a lot more glucovanillin.

The big question is taste. What would be the result if you added the same quantity of each extract to some filtered water? Which tastes better?


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## joeswine (Nov 12, 2020)

What you should find is that the extraction what the everclear is stronger stronger and flavor as opposed to the vodka provocative should be lighter in flavor which means use less of the alcohol extraction and more of the vodka extraction either way it's all according to what your taste buds like.


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## joeswine (Nov 12, 2020)

If you're making a cello he above works if you're actually thinking of putting vanilla bean into wine and less is more absolutely less is more one bean goes a long way and it takes time for that being to Miller out in the wine in there seeing that done .
This would be considered an main case for less is more.


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## reeflections (Nov 12, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> The agriculture of vanilla is truly amazing. Here is a short paper on the subject, if you are interested:


Finally got around to reading this. Fascinating! Quite a history. Thanks.


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## reeflections (Nov 12, 2020)

Raptor99 said:


> I think that it is possible that there are some substances in the vanilla beans that are water soluble. The everclear has very little water, so less of those compounds are extracted. I don't understand most of the study that you attached, but I did notice that methods 2a and 2b used different concentrations of ethanol. The lower concentration extracted a little more vanillin and a lot more glucovanillin.
> 
> The big question is taste. What would be the result if you added the same quantity of each extract to some filtered water? Which tastes better?



That makes sense. I'll let you know in a few months which is stronger and which tastes best.


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## Columbia_Carroll (Nov 13, 2020)

reeflections said:


> So @joeswine, at what stage do you add vanilla extract to your wine?
> 
> 
> This is interesting. I read so many sites that said the same as you about Everclear vs vodka. That the higher proof would be faster and stronger. This seems logical.
> ...


Would be interesting to try just water and if the color and/or flavor is more water soluble.


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