# Got off the Phone with the Fermaid people



## seth8530

So, I was having a very interesting conversation with deezil about which of the fermaid products is best suited for what situations. And after trading multiple technical docs and discussing them I decided to call the kind folks up at Fermaid. This is what I learned.

Fermaid O is the ideal nutrient to use whenever you can use it. This means pretty much most things that have a somewhat decent nitrogen content. It will result in an overall really balanced steady fermentation. Fermaid O uses amino based nitrogen which the yeast can still utilize even when the yeast reaches the point that cant use DAP. Also, avoid using nutrients after the 1/2 mark unless the wine makes signs of being distressed. Then it would be fine to use something like fermaid O to help it out. But you do not want to overload it with too much because it might not use it all.

Now, for the mead the puzzle is trickier. A mixture of Fermaid O/DAP or Fermaid K might be what you want to use on the onset to help fermentation out since it has so little nitrogen in it. So perhaps use some Fermaid O and K at the onset and then eventually switch her on over Fermaid O entirely since DAP does indeed help fermentation accelerate better at the onset....perhaps too much..... Also, always use a rehydration nutrient because that can help the fermentation out through the whole process. 

So take home message, Fermaid O rocks when you can use it. When you can't, try using it in conjunction with Fermaid K or DAP to help make up for really large nitrogen needs. Then switch back to Fermaid O. Also, Fermaid O works better than DAP in the late phases of fermentation since it is a amino acid based nitrogen source.


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## Deezil

The very beginning of this healthy conversation starts here, with a PDF brochure provided by Jswordy.. After successfully derailing that thread, I sent Seth a PM.

Some highlights:



Deezil said:


> That was kind of along the lines of what I was thinking/reading myself, although all the reading that i've done about yeast and organic sources of nitrogen vs DAP make me really really hesitant to start a fermentation with anything containing DAP anymore..
> 
> I've noticed the difference in my wines already, using Fermaid-O, as well as Booster Blanc/Rouge, another inactivated yeast product to help smooth mid-palette and reinforce aromatics.. This batch of peach I made last fall, while using roughly the same amount of fruit per gallon, but with additions of only-Fermaid-O, adding Booster Blanc, and I think I even added FT Blanc Soft, a tannin blend offered by Scotts Lab / Lallemand.... It KILLS my first batch of peach, by miles, and it's still 'green'/young
> 
> The problem with starting a fermentation on DAP lies in the fact that while organic amino acid forms of nitrogen make for healthier yeast, yeast view DAP like we think of sugar/crack - they aim for it, crave it, and when they run out of it, theres a lag-phase between when they run out of DAP and start to actually consume the amino acids.. This lag phase is when the colony dies off, Funk makes its appearance (because they arent up-taking nutrients during the switch)... It takes them time to switch the pathways up for metabolization whereas its a seamless transition from amino acids to DAP because you're going from complex pathways (organic) to simple pathways (DAP)
> 
> On the flip side like I noted earlier, DAP isnt readily consumed after a certain extent.. These two factors generally limit the use of DAP in my mind, and couple that with the fact that it causes the heat spikes, yeast-colony spikes, H2S spikes when said-colony dies off, etc... I'm not a fan
> 
> Fermaid-A & Fermaid-K both seem to have steady work in low-YAN musts though, and for that I'll always have some on-hand.





Deezil said:


> Yeah, I've read that Fermaid-O / amino acid nitrogen sources can be added to the Must prior to yeast pitch, but not to the yeast starter... And I remember reading not to add DAP in any amount, prior to or at yeast pitch, but I dont remember reading the 'why' of it.
> 
> And I always use Go-Ferm in my starters, which supplies some of the same nutrients that Fermaid-K/-A have, but -O doesn't, so in the beginning / at pitch, thats where the yeast source those nutrients from.. So you kind of get the same thing as Fermaid-K, using leftover Go-Ferm + Fermaid-O, just without any DAP.. That was my understanding on it, anyway, at the beginning of fermentation; and my justification for doing things the way I have..
> 
> Then to throw a friggin wrench in it all last night.. I've been using Booster Blanc / Booster Rouge... Come to find out, they're classified as nutrients as well; I didn't know.. I knew they were made of inactivated yeast though, so I dont know why it didnt click. But now theres the search for what parts of hte yeast they are, and how those chemicals interact with the Fermaid lines, and if when using Booster Blanc + Fermaid-O, do I really lose anything from not using Fermaid-K/-A?



For any interested, these are most of the PDF's that were discussed

I came across another product, Fermaid-A; appears to be a blend of -K & -O

Then there's this PDF, with its chart on page 2
And then this PDF, showing Fermaid-O's efficiency over DAP in chart 1

Then there's this PDF, from Lallemand with some interesting tidbits in it


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## seth8530

Yep, one thing I would like to add is that fermaid A was made so that they could export a product because some of the things in fermaid K did did not make border crossings so well.. Hence A was developed.


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## garymc

Is the DAP used to seal the airlock into the stopper? Do you recommend latex DAP or the more expensive silicone version?


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## Deezil

DAP - Diammonium phosphate, a source of YAN (yeast-assimilable nitrogen)


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## garymc

Oh. Well, I knew it wasn't Download Accelerator Plus.


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## garymc

Looks like I need to look into this Fermaid stuff. The brand of yeast nutrient I've been using is "yeast nutrient."


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## Deezil

garymc said:


> Looks like I need to look into this Fermaid stuff. The brand of yeast nutrient I've been using is "yeast nutrient."



This is what I started off making wine with myself, and its pretty much almost completely DAP.


Fermaid-O, Fermaid-K, Fermaid-A - all made by the same company that makes Go-Ferm.

They also make 'inactivated yeast' products called Booster Blanc (white wines) & Booster Rouge (red wines), that are classified as 'yeast nutrients', so I've got more digging to do to see how these will interact/balance out the different uses of Fermaid-O/-K/-A.

I've used Booster Blanc/Rouge both with success, and I personally believe in their use alongside Go-Ferm + Fermaid-O; I just crave to know the "how's" and the "why's" of what I've experienced. First Seth got dragged in, and now here we are 

Also found this for Booster Blanc & Booster Rouge

Might as well explore Opti-White & Opti-Red while I'm doing all this 

As per this page, 
"The absolute best time to add Opti-Red or Booster Rouge is in the must. 

Opti-Red and Booster Rouge have a high natural content of reactive yeast polysaccharides. These polysaccharides will complex with anthocyanins and tannins as soon as they are released from the skin and result in a wine with fuller structure and enhanced mouthfeel. 

If you wait to make the Opti-Red or Booster Rouge addition until mid-fermentation, there are fewer polyphenols available to complex with the polysaccharides in Opti-Red or Booster Rouge.
Opti-Red and Booster Rouge additions, even in a finished wine, will still make a positive contribution but the effect will not be as dramatic."


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## garymc

I'm not worthy


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## garymc

Seriously, I've been casting about looking for the yeast strain that will allow the fruitiness of muscadines to be reflected in the wine. So I went from EC-1118 to 71B-1122. This was also because I observed that the must started out high in acid and ended up lower in acid. 
After getting a whif of the yeast nutrient I've been using I knew it wasn't something you wanted left undigested in the wine. So I've used it in amounts slightly less than listed in the recipes. I particularly liked the mention by Seth the info about the amino nitrogen and the steadier fermentation.


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## seth8530

garymc said:


> Seriously, I've been casting about looking for the yeast strain that will allow the fruitiness of muscadines to be reflected in the wine. So I went from EC-1118 to 71B-1122. This was also because I observed that the must started out high in acid and ended up lower in acid.
> After getting a whif of the yeast nutrient I've been using I knew it wasn't something you wanted left undigested in the wine. So I've used it in amounts slightly less than listed in the recipes. I particularly liked the mention by Seth the info about the amino nitrogen and the steadier fermentation.



The thing about nutrient is that you do not need per say how much the recipie says, but you need how much the must needs. For instance, if you wanted to know how much fermaid O to use you would first need to find out or estimate the YAN content of the must then find out the YAN content of the nutrient you are using and use that to determine how much to add to the must. Also, I am too drawn in by the idea of a slower more evened out fermentation by using fermaid O because I feel like that might help respect the character and fruity ness of the grape/fruit better than say a faster more aggressive fermentation. BTW good choice of yeast.


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## Brew and Wine Supply

garymc said:


> Looks like I need to look into this Fermaid stuff. The brand of yeast nutrient I've been using is "yeast nutrient."


 I've been keeping Deezil supplied for a while now. here is a link to them: http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=17_98_116


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## Downwards

Assuming YAN is yeast available nitrogen, how do you determine the YAN of a must?


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## seth8530

Now that is an interesting question. I am sure there is a test you could preform.. But for you and me we might be best off looking that up in some available research or perhaps a table somewhere.


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## wood1954

so, do you think kit wines have a yeast nutrient added?


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## WVMountaineerJack

OK Seth, here is your homework: Find the YAN of:

elderberries
black raspberries
red raspberries
currants, black
blackberries
cherries
peaches
mulberries
apples

sorry if I missed anyones favorites  WVMJ

I have been thinking about sending in some samples to have tested just to see as a baseline, not sure if there is a testing lab near us or not. 







seth8530 said:


> Now that is an interesting question. I am sure there is a test you could preform.. But for you and me we might be best off looking that up in some available research or perhaps a table somewhere.


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## seth8530

Plegh lol, Ill see if i can find anything.


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## Deezil

YAN levels change from crop to crop, area to area, year to year..

Might find guidelines for specific years but I don't know if I'd use those as a rule of thumb..


Inorganic nitrogen (think DAP) can be calculated using an ammonia probe.
Organic nitrogen can be calculated using formol titration or the NOPA method.

I've done light reading on these methods but not enough to regurgitate it with any confidence that i'd be 100% correct. Those are the method names though, and theres white papers describing the process and equipment needed


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## jswordy

garymc said:


> Seriously, I've been casting about looking for the yeast strain that will allow the fruitiness of muscadines to be reflected in the wine. So I went from EC-1118 to 71B-1122. This was also because I observed that the must started out high in acid and ended up lower in acid.
> After getting a whif of the yeast nutrient I've been using I knew it wasn't something you wanted left undigested in the wine. So I've used it in amounts slightly less than listed in the recipes. I particularly liked the mention by Seth the info about the amino nitrogen and the steadier fermentation.



Gary, in my Moonshiner's Muscadine, I used Fermaid O and RC212. It is resting in the carboy and it is already the best wine I have ever made of anything. I am scared of messing it up, it is so good. And it is still young. Maybe you'll try a test batch this fall.

Soon I will cold stabilize it and get ready to bottle.


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## jswordy

Deezil said:


> DAP - Diammonium phosphate, a source of YAN (yeast-assimilable nitrogen)



Same stuff you get in your Scott's bag for your grass, too. LOL. True! It's the most common phosphorous fertilizer in the world, IIRC.


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## seth8530

Just got an email back with official numbers for YAN contribution from a couple of fermaid products. The email is quoted below.




> Hi Seth,
> Below is some YAN contribution information.
> 
> Fermaid K
> YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L
> YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 30mgN/L
> 
> Fermaid O
> YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 10gN/L*
> YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 12mgN/L*
> 
> *The organic nitrogen in Fermaid O is used very efficiently by the yeast (it's like feeding the yeast broccoli instead of a candy bar) so although the YAN contribution numbers look lower you can actually think of it as more like 3x the YAN contribution numbers listed (and 4x if you've used GoFerm during rehydration).
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions about all this.
> Thanks!
> --Brooke


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## Deezil

Can you ask them about the nitrogen content of Booster Blanc/Rouge & Opti-White/Red? They're classified as Yeast Nutrients, and it says they contain trace amounts of nitrogen, i just wonder how trace, trace is...

And maybe toss in that new Fermaid-A, to get numbers for that one too?
And maybe DAP for a reference? 

... Didnt know you were writing the email, obviously


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## seth8530

Ill have to ask that later lol. I just sent them another email about the maximum safe ammount of fermaid that can be used in wine due to concerns of vitamin excess.


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## seth8530

Ok, I have been emailing scottlabs and lavlin about their products. If you make up a list of questions for scottlabs about their product line I will do my best to get them answered. They seem really helpful. Scott labs seems to be having issues releasing much information about the YAN needs of thier yeast due to concerns that the information is proprietary but.. we shall see.


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## Deezil

With Lallemand, they made this PDF;
On page 10, there's a graph but the names dont mean anything to us. 

Can they assign the names on the graph to commercially purchasable yeast strains?
That would give us a nice starting point, on the amount of YAN needed to convert sugar..

Booster Blanc/Rouge & Opti-White Nitrogen numbers would be nice; As would, do they contribute towards the max levels of minerals/vitamins commercially acceptable?

I'll do some more thinking, I know theres more questions

Oh! Any hopes of Torulaspora delbrueckii, Pichia kluyveri, or Kluyveromyces thermotolerans yeast strains available for the home winemaker, in the future?


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> With Lallemand, they made this PDF;
> On page 10, there's a graph but the names dont mean anything to us.
> 
> Can they assign the names on the graph to commercially purchasable yeast strains?
> That would give us a nice starting point, on the amount of YAN needed to convert sugar..
> 
> Booster Blanc/Rouge & Opti-White Nitrogen numbers would be nice; As would, do they contribute towards the max levels of minerals/vitamins commercially acceptable?
> 
> I'll do some more thinking, I know theres more questions
> 
> Oh! Any hopes of Torulaspora delbrueckii, Pichia kluyveri, or Kluyveromyces thermotolerans yeast strains available for the home winemaker, in the future?



Ok, sounds like good questions. Try and present them in an organized manner so these kind people will be able to answer them easily. Also, try and clearly separate your questions that are relevant to lavlin yeast and the kind that are relevant to the fermaid crew.


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## Deezil

Lemme do some more thinking, I'll clean it up, separate the thoughts and organize it in a manner that it seems to flow 

I just need to pull my head out of 'beekeeping' and get back into the 'winemaking'


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## seth8530

Hehe, I feel ya on that one. Once we get all of this information compiled we should try and make a sticky out of it.


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## Deezil

What types of ‘fermentative advantages’ (source) does using Opti-White/-Red during fermentation contribute to a finished wine; do either product contribute any accountable amount of nitrogen within normal dosage parameters?

How about Booster Blanc/Rouge; I’ve seen all four of these products (Opti-White/-Red, Booster Blanc/Rouge) all classified in the ‘yeast nutrient’ category (source) – do these contribute any notable nitrogen to the fermentation?

Are there any other facets of these products that qualify them as 'nutrients', that I may be missing?

With yeast in mind - are there any charts/graphs comparing the various facets of the different yeast strains offered? I've seen charts for nitrogen needs (pg. 10), glycerol production (pg. 2), and maybe one or two others but they're still in the format used in the study & without knowing the 'common name', the information is of little use. Any charts or graphs that you could provide would be greatly appreciated.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


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## seth8530

Just writing down my thoughts before I forget them. Got off the phone with the awesome people at lavlin.

Grape wines ie wines with fairly good nutrients

Goferm to start out and then staggered Fermaid O untill the 2/3 break.

Mead

Goferm then possibly a relatively large dose of fermaidK to provide micro nutrients and then follow up with staggered fermaid O. Another possibility is a staggered k then O nutrient schedule but keep in mind that while the yeast is using the DAP in the K it can block the yeast from using the nice and wonderful O.


Avoid fermenting outside of the fermentation range advertised by the yeast. Even for red grape wines. Why risk the health and the delicate aromatics and off flavours for a little bit of colour? Instead make sure that the must is well mixed to ensure that the colour can be extracted across the whole concentration gradient. 

If you plan on co-inoculating yeast and ML bacteria wait to add the ML nutrient until after alcoholic fermentation has completed because it is likely that the yeast might eat up the ML's nutrient leaving your ML starved and possibly in the mood to eat sugar which can lead to unpleasantness. 

Also, their are these things called sterols which help the yeast develop a protective barrier during fermentation that protects them from alcohol and things like temperature and PH swings. You can help your yeast develop theses sterols by using a good re hydration nutrient at the start of fermentation. 

Also, I am attaching the power point that the kind lady from lavlin sent me. 

View attachment Awesume Ferm Info.zip


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## Bob1016

They said 2/3 sugar for fermaid O? Very interesting! I have been using it up to the 1/2 break (with some yeast hulls if the abv is towards the top), just to mitigate H2S and help them finish ferment in my meads. 
I'm curious to see your take on my new practice:
Add ~26ppm YAN with fermaid O at must make up, then pitch and add 40ppm YAN from fermaid K, the rest of the nutrients beeing split for several feedings. I add the fermaid O at the begining for the yeast while in lag (they won't take up much, but some end lag earlier than others and they'll eat the FO), and since the yeast will prefer the DAP in FK, when they're done with that, they can eat the aminos in FK and FO. 
This is my justification, it seems to work well with my meads, just curious what you think of it. 
If you get a chance to talk to Clayton Cone, he is an amazingly knowledgable man.


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## seth8530

Bob1016 said:


> They said 2/3 sugar for fermaid O? Very interesting! I have been using it up to the 1/2 break (with some yeast hulls if the abv is towards the top), just to mitigate H2S and help them finish ferment in my meads.
> I'm curious to see your take on my new practice:
> Add ~26ppm YAN with fermaid O at must make up, then pitch and add 40ppm YAN from fermaid K, the rest of the nutrients beeing split for several feedings. I add the fermaid O at the begining for the yeast while in lag (they won't take up much, but some end lag earlier than others and they'll eat the FO), and since the yeast will prefer the DAP in FK, when they're done with that, they can eat the aminos in FK and FO.
> This is my justification, it seems to work well with my meads, just curious what you think of it.
> If you get a chance to talk to Clayton Cone, he is an amazingly knowledgable man.



I would be interested in talking to him. First though, I need a clarification. Is your proposed method for fairly nutritious must like fruit and grape wine? Or is it for meads? It matters.


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## Bob1016

It certainly does matter! My mistake, I mainly do meads, a few beers, and some fruit wines/ciders. 
I was referring to meads, and partially for some fruit wines (the ones where significant capitalization and dilution are required such as raspberry and the like where nutrients are also lacking). 
I did notice an improvement on my last traditional when I added FO pre pitch and used my normal nutrient schedule (minus 26ppm YAN from the other sources). 
I love having FO on hand if things get a little reductive in my meads, but I always try to add it before the 1/2 sugar break, so maybe I can add a little later, though it always prevents H2S/mercaptan when I add and splash rack. 
In grape musts, I would think you could supplement solely with FO, you normally don't need more than 50ppm YAN added right (especially when on the skins)? Unless it is a very difficult year, in which case a stressed ferment might be a stylistic choice.


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## seth8530

Bob1016 said:


> It certainly does matter! My mistake, I mainly do meads, a few beers, and some fruit wines/ciders.
> I was referring to meads, and partially for some fruit wines (the ones where significant capitalization and dilution are required such as raspberry and the like where nutrients are also lacking).
> I did notice an improvement on my last traditional when I added FO pre pitch and used my normal nutrient schedule (minus 26ppm YAN from the other sources).
> I love having FO on hand if things get a little reductive in my meads, but I always try to add it before the 1/2 sugar break, so maybe I can add a little later, though it always prevents H2S/mercaptan when I add and splash rack.
> In grape musts, I would think you could supplement solely with FO, you normally don't need more than 50ppm YAN added right (especially when on the skins)? Unless it is a very difficult year, in which case a stressed ferment might be a stylistic choice.




You really need to know the YAN of the grapes you are working with always. Because they vary wildly. However, it is difficult to get that number sometimes. 

I agree with ya that it really matters what you are fermenting. For most nutrient friendly must start out with go-ferm ( it will help the yeast later on when the fermentation gets difficult by building up sterols plus it contains vitamins which fermaid O does not have) 
Then I would do a fermaid O only regimen.

For something like mead the question is much more difficult to answer. Once again I would start out with go ferm. Then I would most likely add in K once fermentation starts to supply it with some of those much lacked nutrients.. Then I would have a debate to whether I would do alternating applications of O and K or whether I would try and go on with just O. The danger of alternating with O and K is that the yeast might decide to eat just the K because yeast will gobble of up the DAP and kind of ignore the organic ammino nitrogen. However, by not alternating you sort of run a risk of not getting enough vitamins to the yeast.. So those are the two sides of the coin. 

Also, it is ok to break YAN additions into many steps that are based on the fermentation progress. Ie YAN additions every 1/8 of the way through so long as you keep your total YAN objective in mind. If I did this I would give it an initial dose that is larger than the rest though because that is a challenging time. 

Yeast can use the organic ammino nitrogen from fermaid O past the 1/2 sugar break which is yet another one of the major advantages of O over DAP based nutrients. Also, I believe that the organic nitrogen gives you a lot more of a stable stead fermentation which can be desirable compared to a hot and angry one where aromatics can sometimes get blown off.

Another challenge is actually finding out the YAN needs of the indidual yeast strains based on the conditions that the yeast will see during fermentation. I am yet to find a first hand source that really discusses this issue.


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## Bob1016

Go-ferm should always be used in rehydration of dried yeast, as nutrients should be added in stages, you can have good results without doing one or both, but beat results are obtained by using both processes. 

My point was that with two meads, using the same target YAN (150ppm), same yeast, and same honey varietals (different years, but close) the batch with fermaid O added before yeast pitch (replacing a percentage of fermaid K, but giving the same end YAN levels) had a better flavor profile than the one that did not have the FO added at the begining. 
I wonder if this is something anyone else has seen or just me. 
I typically do 6 additions, at end of lag and 1/15 sugar intervals until the 1/3 break. If it is a higher gravity batch I will add yeast hulls so that the yeast can finish the job, but now I may add FO with the hulls to get more YAN.


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## seth8530

I am pretty sure yeast hulls are redudent if you are using fermaid O.. But, I bleive their have been studies that show that fermaid O usage gives better aromatics and other traits because of the happier yeast compared to K and other DAP based nutrients. So, yes, it would not surprise me if O gave you a better mead.


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## Bob1016

I've got the lallamand study, and several others showing that amino acid metabolism is very important in fermentation aromas; basically each amino acid will yeild different aromatic compounds once metabolized, the ones specific to fermaid O are very positive once converted. 
Yeast hulls are very useful when pushing the alcohol tolerance of yeast strains, they bind to certain fatty acids which will inhibit yeast metabolism. The stated alcohol tolerance of yeast is a combination of alcohol toxicity and the build up of these fatty acids which together slow the metabolic rate of the yeast and can make them poop out a little early. 
I have found that 1g/gal will make the resultant mead a little drier in taste even if the gravity is the same, most of the times it will nock off a point or 2. When I have fermented meads with and without yeast hulls, the ones with will have the dry characteristic of one fermented with champagne yeast (just talking about how dry it tastes, not the esters or lack thereof). They also add a small amount of YAN, but not very much. 

Overall, I like fermaid K and O very much, if I were fermenting higher YAN musts, I would probably use just the fermaid O, in meads it is quite difficult to get the YAN numbers and fermaid K is very useful, as is DAP. 

Over on GotMead, someone did use fermaid O as his sole nutrient and reported great results, but it is far more expensive to get 150ppm YAN from fermaid O than it is to get the same YAN level from fermaid K. 

The other huge benefit to fermaid O, from a meadmakers perspective, is that it reportedly takes less YAN for a good ferment when using more organic nitrogen. As an example you may only need 175ppm YAN with 50% being organic N to get the results of 225ppm YAN when there is more DAP and less organic N. these are not tested numbers, but they demonstrate what the documents claim about fermaid O, so that is a huge plus!


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## seth8530

Bob1016 said:


> I've got the lallamand study, and several others showing that amino acid metabolism is very important in fermentation aromas; basically each amino acid will yeild different aromatic compounds once metabolized, the ones specific to fermaid O are very positive once converted.
> Yeast hulls are very useful when pushing the alcohol tolerance of yeast strains, they bind to certain fatty acids which will inhibit yeast metabolism. The stated alcohol tolerance of yeast is a combination of alcohol toxicity and the build up of these fatty acids which together slow the metabolic rate of the yeast and can make them poop out a little early.
> I have found that 1g/gal will make the resultant mead a little drier in taste even if the gravity is the same, most of the times it will nock off a point or 2. When I have fermented meads with and without yeast hulls, the ones with will have the dry characteristic of one fermented with champagne yeast (just talking about how dry it tastes, not the esters or lack thereof). They also add a small amount of YAN, but not very much.
> 
> Overall, I like fermaid K and O very much, if I were fermenting higher YAN musts, I would probably use just the fermaid O, in meads it is quite difficult to get the YAN numbers and fermaid K is very useful, as is DAP.
> 
> Over on GotMead, someone did use fermaid O as his sole nutrient and reported great results, but it is far more expensive to get 150ppm YAN from fermaid O than it is to get the same YAN level from fermaid K.
> 
> The other huge benefit to fermaid O, from a meadmakers perspective, is that it reportedly takes less YAN for a good ferment when using more organic nitrogen. As an example you may only need 175ppm YAN with 50% being organic N to get the results of 225ppm YAN when there is more DAP and less organic N. these are not tested numbers, but they demonstrate what the documents claim about fermaid O, so that is a huge plus!



I agree with much of what you are saying however, I am not very knowledgeable about the use of yeast hulls. I saw a study from lallamand that seems to imply that fermaid O might be 4X as effective as DAP based nutrients. Apperently their is a lot more going on behind the curtains than just YAN. The one issue I have with O is that it does not have the nutrients that K does. If they made a vitamin infused O I would be in heaven. I agree fermaid O and K are both very good products. However, is fermaid O really that expensive in the big picture? I would not think cost would be a real determining factor when it comes to nutrients.


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## Deezil

Bob1016 said:


> I've got the lallamand study, and several others showing that amino acid metabolism is very important in fermentation aromas; basically each amino acid will yeild different aromatic compounds once metabolized, the ones specific to fermaid O are very positive once converted.
> 
> Yeast hulls are very useful when pushing the alcohol tolerance of yeast strains, they bind to certain fatty acids which will inhibit yeast metabolism. The stated alcohol tolerance of yeast is a combination of alcohol toxicity and the build up of these fatty acids which together slow the metabolic rate of the yeast and can make them poop out a little early.
> I have found that 1g/gal will make the resultant mead a little drier in taste even if the gravity is the same, most of the times it will nock off a point or 2. When I have fermented meads with and without yeast hulls, the ones with will have the dry characteristic of one fermented with champagne yeast (just talking about how dry it tastes, not the esters or lack thereof). They also add a small amount of YAN, but not very much.
> 
> Overall, I like fermaid K and O very much, if I were fermenting higher YAN musts, I would probably use just the fermaid O, in meads it is quite difficult to get the YAN numbers and fermaid K is very useful, as is DAP.
> 
> Over on GotMead, someone did use fermaid O as his sole nutrient and reported great results, but it is far more expensive to get 150ppm YAN from fermaid O than it is to get the same YAN level from fermaid K.
> 
> The other huge benefit to fermaid O, from a meadmakers perspective, is that it reportedly takes less YAN for a good ferment when using more organic nitrogen. As an example you may only need 175ppm YAN with 50% being organic N to get the results of 225ppm YAN when there is more DAP and less organic N. these are not tested numbers, but they demonstrate what the documents claim about fermaid O, so that is a huge plus!



Can you share / link to the study about the amino acids? I'm interested

Glad to see you got my PM & chimed in here, Bob

FWIW, Bob's pretty on-point with the yeast hulls as they are also part of the protocol involved with restarting a stuck ferment. You introduce the yeast hulls to a stuck ferment to help bind up some of those fatty acids that the yeast produce which can become toxic and when you rack off the yeast hulls to repitch your yeast, they can live again and continue to work towards the ABV threshold. I havent used them much myself, but it's sound advice. 

Thats interesting that they result in a drier palette, i wonder how those fatty acids play into the body of a wine

I've purchased both Fermaid-K and Fermaid-O myself, but since have only used the -O. All my ferments have ran fine thusfar, and I cant say its taken a whole lot extra nutrient compared to previous batches with generic/DAP-based nutrients, as far as the amount i've added. I believe theres some weight to the notion that organic nitrogen 'goes farther' than DAP-based nutrients

Another thing to be noted.. Fermaid-O is the one to use, if you're making melomels. From my experience, the added fruit usually provides enough vitamins and minerals to make up for the lack of any in the Fermaid-O; although this is more applicable to those mazers who add the fruit to primary.

I could see the use for Fermaid-K on a traditional or fruit-less mead, although i wont really know for sure until i make a 5-10 gallon batch later this fall


----------



## Bob1016

Wow! Those are really long posts to quote, sorry. 
The study showing the four fold effectiveness is why I first bought it, it is clear to any one who tries to ferment pure table sugar that DAP is not enough, it will still stick, stink, and taste god awful. Vitamins are essential for all living creatures, but what vitamins are needed is different with respect to what creature. Roger morse was one of the first people I know of that determined what vitamins a are needed (he was working specifically with meads, but has been quoted in countless wine studies that focused on nutrients as well). 
It's not that the fatty acids add something, it's that their removal allows the yeast to get a little more work done, it might not be much, but it is noticeable. Think about how sweet fructose is compared to glucose, and all wines will have fractions left, with yeast hulls the yeast can reduce the fractions even further. 
I justify the use of DAP by thinking about grape musts, there are inorganic nitrogen components in grape musts therefore it is ok, but the more the yeast eat a healthy diet (organic N), the better I feel. Personal preference and ease really. 
There are some show meads (no nutrients at all) that can rival some of the best SNA meads, if that's your technique, and you know how to use it more power to you. I find that as I experiment, I hone in on what works best for my techniques. I'm sure Brother Adams might love some of our modern meads, and I'm sure it would take him some time to try his own SNA techniques, but he might like his show meads better. Personal preferences, and learned experiences should guide us. That beeing said, I am terrible at show meads, and am not likely to give up SNA, but I will keep refining it as long as I can. Isn't that half the fun of any hobby?
The point is, never stop experimenting, and hopefully learning; I think we can all agree on that.


----------



## Deezil

Deezil said:


> What types of ‘fermentative advantages’ (source) does using Opti-White/-Red during fermentation contribute to a finished wine; do either product contribute any accountable amount of nitrogen within normal dosage parameters?
> 
> How about Booster Blanc/Rouge; I’ve seen all four of these products (Opti-White/-Red, Booster Blanc/Rouge) all classified in the ‘yeast nutrient’ category (source) – do these contribute any notable nitrogen to the fermentation?
> 
> Are there any other facets of these products that qualify them as 'nutrients', that I may be missing?
> 
> With yeast in mind - are there any charts/graphs comparing the various facets of the different yeast strains offered? I've seen charts for nitrogen needs (pg. 10), glycerol production (pg. 2), and maybe one or two others but they're still in the format used in the study & without knowing the 'common name', the information is of little use. Any charts or graphs that you could provide would be greatly appreciated.[FONT=&quot]
> [/FONT]



Any chance this ever got anywhere?

That last paragraph.. I'd love those answers.. Talk about Christmas come early..


----------



## seth8530

Ahh, sorry Deezil, I meant to get back to you on that!



> In order to answer your questions: Lallemand SIY products, including OptiRed, OptiWhite, OptiMUM White, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc are a minor source of organic nitrogen. Since all are composed of selected portions of inactivated yeast, the typical YAN contribution is 3mg/L per 10g/hL addition of product. The advantage for the product is not specifically to optimize fermentation kinetics, but on the overall quality of wine made. The SIY products contain different selected fractions of yeast which can contribute to structural and mouthfeel elements---including roundness, balance, mid-palate, color and ageability. They also make a wine more malolactic friendly for those wines where malolactic bacteria are to be inoculated. Each product has a different composition of selected fractions from different yeast sources—hence the various products available.
> 
> I attached our Lallemand fermentation catalogue—with the yeast chart on page 12-13 to indicate the various fermentation parameters. In addition, I added the updated version of the yeast varietal pairing information for style choice.



Its a partial answer anyways


----------



## Deezil

> In order to answer your questions: Lallemand SIY products, including OptiRed, OptiWhite, OptiMUM White, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc are a minor source of organic nitrogen. Since all are composed of selected portions of inactivated yeast, the typical YAN contribution is* 3mg/L per 10g/hL addition of product*.



That's a pretty good answer, thanks for doing the asking!


----------



## seth8530

No problem, pretty much means we dont really need to consider SIY products as far as nutrients go.. 

However, due to an apparent publicly available data on YAN requirements for yeast.. (best I have seen indicates that they don't really benefit much after 270 mg/L and the fact that Scott labs recommends shooting for 350 mg/L I will be conservative and go for 350 mg/L on all of my fermentations.

On fruit/grape fermentations unless data is otherwise provided I will assume 100mg/L initial YAN. Which If I recall correctly means I need to add 6.25 grams of Fermaid O per liter of wine.

For things like mead and dragons blood I will of course assume 0 initial YAN and augment it up to 350 mg/L.. I will also consider finding a way to supplement essential vitamins for the yeasty beasties as well..... Goferm protect does have vitamins that yeast needs but I am not sure that it is enough for mead.


----------



## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> No problem, pretty much means we dont really need to consider SIY products as far as nutrients go..
> 
> However, due to an apparent publicly available data on YAN requirements for yeast.. (best I have seen indicates that they don't really benefit much after 270 mg/L and the fact that Scott labs recommends shooting for 350 mg/L I will be conservative and go for 350 mg/L on all of my fermentations.
> 
> On fruit/grape fermentations unless data is otherwise provided I will assume 100mg/L initial YAN. Which If I recall correctly means I need to add 6.25 grams of Fermaid O per liter of wine.
> 
> For things like mead and dragons blood I will of course assume 0 initial YAN and augment it up to 350 mg/L.. I will also consider finding a way to supplement essential vitamins for the yeasty beasties as well..... Goferm protect does have vitamins that yeast needs but I am not sure that it is enough for mead.



I'll probably still calculate it, myself.

3mg/L per 10g/hL
3ppm per 1g/10L
3ppm per 1g / 2.641 gallons

I wanna say I've normally dosed about 7g per 5 gallons
Which is, 3.5g / 2.641 gallons, or close enough for me
So,

3ppm x 3.5 = another 10.5 ppm YAN

And considering I'm only working with honey for an added sugar source these days, I need all the YAN I can get. I'll take that 10.5ppm YAN


----------



## seth8530

Yep yep, BTW those numbers I crunched out were for femaid O... I should of made that explicit.


----------



## Brew and Wine Supply

Deezil said:


> I wanna say I've normally dosed about 7g per 5 gallons


 
I have them packaged in 7gm's for a single batch.


----------



## seth8530

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> I have them packaged in 7gm's for a single batch.



Those numbers seem a little shy to me.. how much YAN are you trying to put in the wine? My assumed 250 mg/l yan boost gives me 6.25 g/l fermaid O or 118 grams per 5 gallon. Obviously the big question is how much YAN you are trying to contribute.... If you aim to add in 100 mg/l i get 47.34 grams needed in 5 gallons.... This is for fermaid O..


----------



## Brew and Wine Supply

The package calls for 35 to 40 Grams per HL (hetalitre). 
HL = 26.4 gallons.
35 gm Divided by 26.4 gallons = 1.32 gm per gallon.
1.32 X 6 gallons =7.92 gram per 6 gallon batch. Or 6.7 per 5 gallons, ie:7 gm per 5 gallons.
So yes almost 1 gram per batch shy. 
Going by instructions on bag .


----------



## Brew and Wine Supply

seth8530 said:


> Those numbers seem a little shy to me.. how much YAN are you trying to put in the wine? My assumed 250 mg/l yan boost gives me 6.25 g/l fermaid O or 118 grams per 5 gallon. Obviously the big question is how much YAN you are trying to contribute.... If you aim to add in 100 mg/l i get 47.34 grams needed in 5 gallons.... This is for fermaid O..



you know where that get us....

118 grams in a lot. almost 4.25 oz
where are you getting your numbers?


----------



## Deezil

Sounds like Seth is forgetting a factor... 
From page 3



> Hi Seth,
> Below is some YAN contribution information.
> 
> Fermaid K
> YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L
> YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 30mgN/L
> 
> Fermaid O
> YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 10gN/L*
> YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 12mgN/L*
> 
> **The organic nitrogen in Fermaid O is used very efficiently by the yeast (it's like feeding the yeast broccoli instead of a candy bar) so although the YAN contribution numbers look lower you can actually think of it as more like 3x the YAN contribution numbers listed (and 4x if you've used GoFerm during rehydration).*
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions about all this.
> Thanks!
> --Brooke



So while you need 250 ppm (mg/l) of DAP, you'd only need ~100 ppm of organic nitrogen. So take that 6.25g/L of Fermaid-O & cut it down to about 2g/L..

If you add organic nitrogen in the same amounts that you add DAP, you'll grossly over-add YAN without realizing it (the numbers wont even tell you)

And Doug was talking about 7g packages of OptiRed, OptiWhite, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc


----------



## seth8530

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> you know where that get us....
> 
> 118 grams in a lot. almost 4.25 oz
> where are you getting your numbers?



We are talking about the same thing correct? Fermaid O? 



> Yeast are living organisms that are classified as a type of fungi. When treated well, they survive most conditions to which winemakers subject them. If the physical and nutritional needs of yeast are understood, they can be encouraged to perform at their peak while converting juice into wine. Adverse conditions can put a stress on yeast cells and hinder their performance. In some cases, yeast may even stop fermenting or create unpleasant flavors and/or aromas in the wine.
> 
> *A major growth factor for a yeast cell is nitrogen. Yeast assimilable nitrogen (YAN) target levels for healthy fermentations vary by grape sugar content (°Brix) and maturity level. High Brix (°B) juice/must requires more nitrogen than low Brix must. For example, the 21°B must target YAN level is 200 mgN/L while a 27°B must target YAN level is 350 mgN/L.
> *
> Supplementation with Fermaid K, Fermaid O, Phosphate Titres and/or DAP in low and medium YAN musts is recommended. To optimize the nitrogen uptake during fermentation, use Go-Ferm or Go-Ferm Protect during yeast rehydration. Later, add Fermaid K or Fermaid O (plus Phosphate Titres) at 1/3 sugar depletion.



That is where I get my number of needing between 350 mg/L YAN. I then assume the must has a starting YAN of 100 mg/L ( fairly conservative because it can be higher... around 200ish mg/L) 

So 350-100 =250mg/l

.3g fermaid O=12mg/l YAN

250/12=20.833

.3*20.833=6.25 g/L fermaid O

If I was given the YAN content of my must I would of course substitute that in to get a more accurate fermaid O dosing.



Deezil said:


> Sounds like Seth is forgetting a factor...
> From page 3
> 
> 
> 
> So while you need 250 ppm (mg/l) of DAP, you'd only need ~100 ppm of organic nitrogen. So take that 6.25g/L of Fermaid-O & cut it down to about 2g/L..
> 
> If you add organic nitrogen in the same amounts that you add DAP, you'll grossly over-add YAN without realizing it (the numbers wont even tell you)
> 
> And Doug was talking about 7g packages of OptiRed, OptiWhite, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc



Deezil, I am aware of that however, I am not sure how accurate this claim is. It is in truth at least partially accurate I know that. But their is more to the story than fermentation rate. I left out an efficiency factor because I do not think it is clear exactly how much more efficient O is than DAP.

[img=http://s21.postimg.org/qq4q3ab7n/Fermentation_curve.jpg]






In the first picture you can see where they get their 4X more efficient claim. However, it is important to note that the chard must already had a pretty good nutrient load in it to start (220 mg/L) around 270 mg/L you start to see diminishing returns. So yes, it is clear that the organic nitrogen is more efficent, but I am not sure it is fair to claim it is 4X more efficent. To prove my point let us move to image 2.

[img=http://s21.postimg.org/6k184efk3/Pic2.jpg]









In this image you can see that once again the fermaid O is more efficient than the DAP source however it looks much closer to 2X more efficient. Obviously something is going on behind the scenes here. Also, their is more stuff that goes on with YAN than just fermentation rate. 

I feel like it is safer to assume that Organic and Inorganic are just as efficient as each other when it comes to a multi year wine making investment such as a mead or grape wine. 

One might be concerned about having too much YAN left over after fermentation however, these charts do not imply that the yeast assimilates less organic nitrogen than inorganic. Only that it can make due with less better with organic than inorganic. 

So, all in all. I do not think it is incorrect to assume an efficiency boost, but I think it would be best to stay on the conservative side of the assumed value. I personally would not assume an efficiency gain of anything greater than 2X.


----------



## Deezil

It can only potentially reach 4x as efficient, when used with Go-Ferm.
Without Go-Ferm, it can only potentially be 3x as efficient.

To me, it doesnt seem as if the claim is affected so much by the starting YAN content of a must, as it is by everything else that we cant calculate for.. Macro- and micronutrients, vitamins, trace elements, none of these are computed for. These are what is present in Go-Ferm, and these are what are lacking in both Fermaid-O & pure DAP. It seems any variation in the efficiency, would come from the supplementing or lack there of, of these various elements in the must itself, prior to any additions.

Obviously a grape must loaded with micro- and macronutrients is going to allow for better efficiency than say a traditional mead would. Yet in both cases, Fermaid-O would still outshine anything DAP-based, and although the efficiency would be difficult for us to calculate as home winemakers, my feeling is it would still be apparent.

This is what prompted me down the line of thinking, wondering what the SIY products brought to the fermentation. They bring micro- and macronutrients alongside their minimal YAN additions. 

I'm interested in seeing how your opinion on this particular aspect of all this research, changes, as you become more exposed to organic nitrogen fermentations. I have a feeling that you'll soon have more faith in these efficiencies


----------



## seth8530

Deezil, I was not saying the actual efficiency was a function of the starting YAN. I meant to point out that the apparent efficiency that one might gleam from that chart might be misleading. If you look at that chart you can see that their is no difference between adding 5mg/L organic and 20 mg/L DAP. It is highly possible that it only appears this way because with the addition of 5 mg/L they hit the asymptotic limit for that yeas strain's YAN needs. 


I do not doubt that Organic is more efficient than inorganic, my question is how much more efficient is it?

BTW, where did you find that SIY products have micro nutrients? That could prove useful for a mead....


----------



## Deezil

From Scotts Lab Handbook 2013



> NATURAL YEAST DERIVATIVE NUTRIENTS
> 
> Natural yeast derivative nutrients are highly specialized inactivated strains of enological yeast. These yeast strains are grown in a controlled environment and harvested at the end of their growth phase. At this stage the yeast has produced a range of enologically attractive polysaccharides that are more reactive compared to the polysaccharides that are released during the yeast autolysis phase.
> 
> Our inactivated yeasts are derived from the biomass of whole yeast cells and have
> been treated to suppress their fermentative capacity. *Each of our natural yeast derivative nutrients can be differentiated by the strains of yeast used, the level of refinement of the yeast cells, their polysaccharide contribution, as well as the presence of specific fractions such as glutathione.* These enological tools contribute certain fermentative advantages together with significant wine quality improvement. Used alone, however, they should not be viewed as a substitute for the complete range of fermentation nutrition products listed elsewhere in this Handbook.



From an earlier post of a Lallemand response:



> In order to answer your questions: Lallemand SIY products, including OptiRed, OptiWhite, OptiMUM White, Booster Rouge, Noblesse and Booster Blanc are a minor source of organic nitrogen. Since all are composed of selected portions of inactivated yeast, the typical YAN contribution is 3mg/L per 10g/hL addition of product. * The advantage for the product is not specifically to optimize fermentation kinetics, but on the overall quality of wine made. The SIY products contain different selected fractions of yeast which can contribute to structural and mouthfeel elements---including roundness, balance, mid-palate, color and ageability. They also make a wine more malolactic friendly for those wines where malolactic bacteria are to be inoculated. Each product has a different composition of selected fractions from different yeast sources—hence the various products available.
> *
> I attached our Lallemand fermentation catalogue—with the yeast chart on page 12-13 to indicate the various fermentation parameters. In addition, I added the updated version of the yeast varietal pairing information for style choice.



So maybe calling them nutrients was the wrong term, they're technically yeast fractions. The differences in the products, they mention are from different fractions of different yeast strains - and those are things I'd still like to know. 

The amounts of polysaccharides, among other things, while not "nutrients" per say, can have an influence on the environment, so while they wont come out and state these products optimize fermentation kinetics directly, by altering the environment, they must optimize it to a certain extent or we wouldn't see the changes that these products bring about. 

If you notice, most of these products are recommended to be added either early in the fermentation, or towards the end.. But rarely are they recommended to be added during bulk aging. There's something to that, I think. What all that is, is another facet of this same question mark.


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, I agree nutrient might not be a good word for it. I would not be surprised however if they help a difficult ferment. I am however, more interested in those non nutrient based effects they are supposed to have on the wine. They seem really promising. 

One thing I have considered doing is adding ML nutrient to the start of a mead to give it some micro nutrient. Before I consider doing this though I need to make sure it has all the right stuff for it. Another possibility is using Go germ as a must addition as well as a re hydration nutrient to help make a mead must more yummy for yeast... Something I will need to read into before I try it though.


----------



## Deezil

Hey Seth,
Are you still in communication with the folks at Lallemand/Scotts Lab?



> Hi Seth,
> Below is some YAN contribution information.
> 
> *Fermaid K
> YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L
> YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 30mgN/L
> 
> Fermaid O
> YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 10gN/L*
> YAN Contribution at 30g/hL (2.5lb/1000gal) = 12mgN/L**
> 
> *The organic nitrogen in Fermaid O is used very efficiently by the yeast (it's like feeding the yeast broccoli instead of a candy bar) so although the YAN contribution numbers look lower you can actually think of it as more like 3x the YAN contribution numbers listed (and 4x if you've used GoFerm during rehydration).
> 
> Let me know if you have any questions about all this.
> Thanks!
> --Brooke



If you are, can you put in a request for information like that bolded, but for Fermaid A? Or is it already around here somewhere?

I've started another thread about Yeast Nutrients, and its basically a summary of everything I've learned thusfar (including a large majority of the information in this thread) but I'm still not satisfied with it, so it's undergoing transformations still.. I'd like to expand to add Fermaid-A, as well as any information un-coverable as to the composition of Go-Ferm - any macro- or micro-nutrients within, or yeast fractions it contains...

Still gathering information on Go-Ferm, so I havent really identified what questions are worth of pestering Lallemand/Scotts Lab with yet


----------



## seth8530

Deezil said:


> Hey Seth,
> Are you still in communication with the folks at Lallemand/Scotts Lab?
> 
> 
> 
> If you are, can you put in a request for information like that bolded, but for Fermaid A? Or is it already around here somewhere?
> 
> I've started another thread about Yeast Nutrients, and its basically a summary of everything I've learned thusfar (including a large majority of the information in this thread) but I'm still not satisfied with it, so it's undergoing transformations still.. I'd like to expand to add Fermaid-A, as well as any information un-coverable as to the composition of Go-Ferm - any macro- or micro-nutrients within, or yeast fractions it contains...
> 
> Still gathering information on Go-Ferm, so I havent really identified what questions are worth of pestering Lallemand/Scotts Lab with yet



I am not presently in comunication with them but I managed to find this..


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:gEnkFfINltAJww.lallemandwine.com/IMG/pdf_Information_Sheet_-_Nutrient_-_Fermaid_A_-_090123.pdf+fermaid+A&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh8VAfaPpjIfX5hrNHcVcwhJaUy73ffpCg-9oO1C1bUcaP9u7GPUOT7SqCm6Eg8zpURMcFCwvICnEMiyBnvKOF7Eb-gskAS-zXzz9L4yRT6wKbCguoSePAYaWGpt8Rj9RvxzfVZ&sig=AHIEtbQGEFPMTvbhH3nV4KgAgMIKf_v1MQ



> For wine applications, the recommended dose is up to 30g/hl, commonly between 20-25g/hl per addition.
> 
> A 30g/hl dose will provide the must with a Total YAN content of 36-37 mg/L (of which 5-6 mg/L is α-amino
> 
> nitrogen).



So .3g/L yields 36-37 mg/L YAN with around 1/6 of it being organic.


----------



## seth8530

http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pdf/awri_nitrogen_management_report_22.pdf

If you are interested give this guy a read. Pretty interesting discussion about how differing amounts of YAN can contribute different armoma characteristics. Too much is almost just as bad as too little. This article was geared towards DAP usage but it seems from what they have studied that somewhere around 320 mg/L seems to be the optimal amount of YAN when you consider things such as aromatics. 

My current thoughts on Fermaid O usage for grape wine must leads me to unless I am given an initial YAN concentration assume around 150 mg/L and add up until I hit 320 mg/L . I am also considering adding on a 33% efficiency gain for using Fermaid O vs DAP based nutrients.

Maybe if I get bored I will make a YAN calculator. However, my past forays into making calculators has lead me to believe that I am the only person who will ever use it.


----------



## seth8530

Btw, it should be noted that this seems to agree with scot labs advice on overall YAN needed.


----------



## RhynoMakingWineO

Great thread....thanks for the work to put the info together!!


----------



## seth8530

BTW, I did some additional reading on fermaidK and its relevence in making wine. When making mead, I beleive that it might be usefull to supply the initial nutrient package into the must of pure fermaidK up to the 1/3 sugar break. Afterwords, up the the 1/2 and 2/3 break switching to fermaid O might be a winner.

I say this because the legal allowable limit for fermaid K is between .25 and .30 grams per liter (http://www.newineclub.org/Yeast Nut Adds.pdf) . According to this, as earlier discussed in our thread



"YAN Contribution at 25g/hL (2lb/1000gal) = 25gN/L" (typo) mg

At an addition of .25 grams per liter of fermaidK per liter one would be contributing 25 ppm (mg/l) YAN. Which is really not all that much. So if working in mead land, one should use fermaidK to provide micro nutrients and vitamins for than just a DAP source.

So, if one is shooting for large YAN contributions one should use FermaidK in connection with fermaidO or perhaps good oll DAP in a pinch.

So, by mass in mg/l ( after doing a bit of math) and double checking against the last slide of the linked presentation (http://www.newineclub.org/Yeast Nut Adds.pdf)

One gets

mg/L YAN (PPM) =(.10*(mg/L) fermaidK +.04*(mg/L)*FermaidO+.2(mg/l) DAP).

So pretty much, this means insert the mg/L used of each of the substances to get the total YAN contributions.

So if we plug in the legal limit of 250 mg/L fermaid K we get ourselves a 25 mg/l allowable yan contribution from fermaid K. This is fine for working with grape wine, but not so much in mead. So now we have to choose to use DAP or Fermaid O.

So lets say we wanted to do 300 mg/L yan. Our fermaid K addition brings us down to 275 mg/l needed.

275 mg/l = .04*(mg/L)*FermaidO

275/.04= mg/l FermaidO

6875 mg/l fermaid O needed.

Divide this out by 1000 to get grams per liter needed and we get 6.875 grams per liter fermaid O needed in addition to the .25 grams per liter K needed. 

The way I would do this would be to rehydrate the yeast in go ferm, and then and add all of the fermaid K and 1/3 of the fermaid O prior to fermentation and I would then add the rest of the fermaid O at the 1/3 sugar break as and up to the 1/2 or 2/3 sugar break depending on how concerned you are about under utilized nitrogen.


----------



## Jimyson

Seth,

So using the mead schedule, for a 5 gallon (18.92L) batch:

At Pitch- 4.73G of Ferm K and 43.33G of Ferm O
1/3 Break- 43.33G of Ferm O
1/2 Break- 43.33G of Ferm O

Correct?

If so, this is a lot of O!


----------



## seth8530

Well what are you making a batch of and what is your YAN goal?


----------



## Jimyson

My trial batch will be the Agave wine which will have an OG around 25-26 Brix. I will use 1116. Figured the 300 YAN give or take would be a good start.


----------



## seth8530

Your numbers from your calc look good as does your proposed schedule. However, with BRIX like that you might want to increase your target up to 350 mg/l YAN.

So,

YAN=350-25 ( from .25 g/l fermaid K) 4.75 grams

325=.04*(mg/L)*FermaidO

325/.04=8125 mg/l fermaidO=8.125 g/l which is the same as 154 grams of fermaid O

Then I would do as you did before with how you split the nutrients. Also, you might want to use a good rehydration nutrient such as go ferm protect. Overall, your plan seems good. If you can, keep the temperature low and you should have a good mead out of it if you let it age long enough.


BTW check this site out for nutrition guidelines.

http://www.nanaimowinemakers.org/Winemaking/General/AddingNitrogen.htm


----------



## Jimyson

Yeah, and I was debating whether or not i wanted to possibly decrease the OG. But, I will follow the same calculations and schedule. 

Yes, I have GoFerm and plan to use it for rehydration.

Thanks!


----------



## seth8530

Excellent, what kind of timeline do you have in mind for the mead?


----------



## Jimyson

As long as primary fermentation looks good for the Agave, then I will look to do the mead. So maybe a week or two. The Malbec, hopefully sometime around the mead based on availability with a toddler and newborn. And man do I need to brew some beer too. YIKES!


----------



## Jimyson

Ok, so I ended up getting 6 gallons at 23 Brix. My yeast is rehydrating right now and I took a PH of my must. 4.2. 

Any concern here? What can be done here or for next batch to bring it up to the 5.2 range?


----------



## sour_grapes

Jimyson said:


> Ok, so I ended up getting 6 gallons at 23 Brix. My yeast is rehydrating right now and I took a PH of my must. 4.2.
> 
> Any concern here? What can be done here or for next batch to bring it up to the 5.2 range?



Bring _what_ up to the 5.2 range? The _p_H? If that is what you meant, I believe you are way off base. I confess I know little about mead and _p_H, other than it will swing around a lot during fermentation because of lack of buffering agents, but I believe you want to start your fermentation with _p_H < 4.


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## seth8530

The starting PH is fine, but as our friend sour mentioned, the pH will swing around a lot. I do all of my pH adjustments post ferment to mead. However, I have heard of mead makers adding OH components to the mead to adjust a bit. ...


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## Jimyson

Sorry guys, yeah that is my beer logic where I mash at 5.2. 

Disregard.


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## Jimyson

Everything went well tonight. I have a good feeling this will ferment dry for me.


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## Jimyson

Alright, no change in gravity after 36 hours.

6g of Agave must @ 23 Brix

*Here is what i did:*

Sanitized 

Rehydrated 12.5g of GoFerm in 175ml of 110F spring water.

Rehydrated 10g of 1116 in 102F GoFerm slurry for 15m

Added 100ml of must to yeast slurry for 15m

Add 5.6g of Ferm-K and 61.5g of Ferm-O to must

Use stir stick and drill to mix and aerate. (I am out of pure O2)

Pitch

Bring to basement 65F-67F

After 11 hours, use stir stick to aerate and take sample. Was around 67F at the time. No change in gravity from OG

Ater 36 hours, take gravity reading. No change. Must is 65F.

*Thoughts*

-Bring it upstairs ~69F to start fermentation
-Aerate with O2
-Should I have pitched with 22g of yeast? For an ale at 23 Brix, MrMalty calculator says 4.4 packs of 5g dry yeast. 

What do you think guys?


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## seth8530

Don't worry about it, it just needs some time. I see that you are a brewer, do you have the means for temperature control?


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## Jimyson

The one thing that I don't have unless I empty my keezer. That is my next purchase. The basement temps are pretty consistent around mid to high 60's which are fine for my ale productions. 

I brought the bucket upstairs to get it moving. Should I send it back down?


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## Jimyson

I have never had to say this but I think I need to RDWHAHB.


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## seth8530

If I was you, once the fermentation kicks off I would store it in the keezer at around 11 C and let it ferment until dry. Meads turn out best when fermented cold because it better expresses the fruity and delicate aromatics of the honey or in your case agave. Mead can sometimes have a bit of a lag phase, so you are doing fine right now.


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## Jimyson

Very cool. Now, what to do with the 17 pounds of hops in the keezer!


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## seth8530

Imperial Emperor's IPA?


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## Jimyson

Now that's an idea!

I buy bulk grain in group buys as much as possible and hops in bulk direct from the farm. For the hops, I tend to pay 30-40% less than retail and get them at harvest. 

For instance, I get 1lb of cascade pellets for $14 and the retailers get $24. Since it comes from Washington, I buy a lot to save on shipping. Now I have a good amount of hops to get me through the year.


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## Jimyson

And a shot of the catch.


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## Jimyson

This thing is moving slow. Gone down .25 Brix. I've been trying to oxygenate it to help with my stir stick bit it won't really budge. 

It's sitting upstairs at 70F. No visible krausen of sorts. I'd be embarrassed to say there is airlock activity however, it's the slightest bit. 

This thing will either stall out or take months to finish. 

Beer fermentation are much more exciting. 

Still normal?


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## Jimyson

One question though. for mead, are you recommending that the nutrient additions take place at pitch or following lag?


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## seth8530

With wine, I would do at end of lag, with mead I like to give it nutrient to start of with. . But do not rehydrate in the nutrients. 

How long has it been since pitch and what was your pitching rate. Does it taste carbonated?


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## Jimyson

84 hours since pitch. I pitched .44g/L but also did a rehydrate with GoFerm and a 15 minute starter. 

I did not use nutrient during rehydration.


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## Jimyson

Based on an ale pitching rate, I'm way under. Not sure how closely related they are. 

Maybe the solution would be to grab a refill of pure O2 and pitch 25g of yeast?


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## seth8530

If it looks like it is going I would still be patient. However, there should be little harm in pitching more if it makes you feel better. 

One of the reasons why pitching rates for beer is so high is that brewers Sometimes like to limit the time spent in the growth phase which can impart some fruity flavors which are sometimes considered off flavors. That and the lower sugar content puts a lot of pressure to get the fermentation rolling faster to avoid spoiling.

I don't think more yeast is needed if your pack was viable, but it wouLd not hurt it either. So, it is your call.


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## Jimyson

Thanks, Seth. I will keep my yeast discussion out of this post. : )


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## Jimyson

I pitched 15g of rehydrated yeast. The initial 10g wasn't moving fast enough to keep me from being concerned about the bad stuff from taking hold. 

Been around 10 hours and I see the movement that I was looking for. I moved it into the keezer at 11C. 

Now will just monitor for 1/3 and 1/2 depletion.


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## seth8530

Yeah, if you got the movement that makes you happy 10 hrs after the addition, I don't think the extra yeast is what did it.. However, on the plus side, your fermentation is now moving and that is all that matters.

Out of curiosity, what are you fermenting in?


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## Jimyson

a 7 gallon fermentation bucket. I am using the airlock for initial inspection but know that the buckets aren't always great with the seal so I am using gravity readings for actuals.


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## seth8530

Most wine makers tend to do open fermentation up until pressing or until when the fermentation starts dying down. The exception being for whites where some will do the whole ferment under cover. your choice of course.


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## Jimyson

I see. Glad I am doing the agave before the mead or wine batches. 

Purely to provide O2? Any other reason?


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## seth8530

If you are working with something like mead, it is for the o2. If you are doing grapes it is for the punch downs. For wine with grapes in it, there is little debate over whether you should do open fermentation. However, for whites, the answer is less clear. Some recommending oxygenation until end of lag before going under airlock.


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## Jimyson

Seth,

Made my mead tonight. It occurred to me that I added my whole addition of Ferm-O at pitch instead of breaking it up into thirds and staggering. Any issue with that? Should I still make some staggered additions?


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## seth8530

It should be ok, it is just not the optimal method. If it appears that the fermentation is getting stressed you could try making an additional addition later on during the fermentation.


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## Jimyson

Well, I definitely don't need more nutrient. Checked it today and it was at



It caught me off guard because yesterday it was still at 19 Brix. Still had the cover open so hopefully the oxygen doesn't hurt too much. Anyway, closed it up and put it under airlock to finish. 

The agave wine is moving much slower. I haven't quite hit 1/3 yet but added some Ferm-O and a good stir to oxygenate a bit. It's moved a few points since. 

So, all in all, my first attempt has gone Ok so far. Good lessons learned. Looking forward to fall 2016 when i can taste the finished product.


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## seth8530

Fall 2016?! You like em youngeh? Looks like things are moving along fine though.


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## Jimyson

I can't wait any longer! 2 years to start cracking sounds bogus to me. But, I'm sure the batch will last that long.


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## Jimyson

How long are you aging for anyway?


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## seth8530

My pinot Rose mead I let age for around 15 months, my dry mead is two years old.. So, I am looking around 15-18 months for meads with fruit in them, and 18-24 months for dry meads.


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## WVMountaineerJack

Its a lot easier to be patient when your winecellar is full than when you have just 2 batches to choose from  WVMJ


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## Jimyson

Great point. Another reason to up my beer brewing for the short term rewards.


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