# Planting distance Top Wire Cordon



## rpdranc (Mar 26, 2015)

Sorry stupid question. I spaced posts 24 feet a part & planned on planting 3 vines 8 feet apart between each . As I have Fenox anchor and GrippleGPak brace I won't have top cordon room closest to each end post? 
Can I still plant 3 between each 24 foot post? Should I cut 8 ft distance between each vine to accommodate 3? Thx!!


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## sour_grapes (Mar 26, 2015)

Sorry if this is obvious, but you cannot put 3 objects (vines) spaced 8' apart into 24 feet. The third one would be _right at_ the second post.

You should probably focus on _intervals between vines_, not the vines themselves. There is one more interval than object: You have four intervals with three vines.

Thus, it seems to me your choices are twofold. 
(1) You could plant your vines at 6 ft, 12 ft, and 18 ft. from the first post and all subsequent posts. (This would leave 6-foot spaces between vines and posts everywhere.)

But probably better to use this option:
(2) You could plant vines at 4 ft, 12 ft, and 20 ft. from the first post and all subsequent posts. This would allow 8' between any two vines.


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## grapeman (Mar 26, 2015)

Paul vines grow both directions from the trunk With 8 foot spacing on 24 foot spaced posts, you plant the first vine at 4 feet then eight feet apart the rest of the row and should end up with 4 feet on the other end between the vine and the post so yes choice 2 is correct. This allows each vine 8 feet of total space.


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## rpdranc (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Grapeman as always! That's all I wanted to confirm, that the 4 feet would be adequate for cordon closest to first post, Thx!!!


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## rpdranc (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks Sour Grapes


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## BigH (Mar 31, 2015)

rpdranc said:


> Thanks Grapeman as always! That's all I wanted to confirm, that the 4 feet would be adequate for cordon closest to first post, Thx!!!



What varieties are you planting? How rich is your soil.

I planted my TWC vines last year on 8' spacings and spaced them exactly as grapeman described: 4' in from the end post, and vines 4' on either side of each line post. Like this


X----T--------T--------T----|----T--------T--------T----|----T--------T--------T----X

X = end post
T = vine
| = line post
- = 1 foot of space.

If you are concerned with running out of space at the end posts, then you could move the outside 2 vines in a foot and keep everything else where it would have been (or thereabouts. But if you do that, then you are just moving your spacing problem into the row a bit and between the pairs of vines that are now closer than they would have been. It doesn't seem to my untrained mind that this really buys you much. It just shifts the problem from one place to the other.

I am a newbie and don't really know what I am talking about, but it seems to me that if you have problems controlling vigor at the end posts with vines 4' in, then you are going to have spacing problems all up and down the row.

H^2


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## rpdranc (Apr 1, 2015)

Hey thanks Big H for taking the time to reply. My site sounds pretty similar to yours. How did your vines do in first year? 
I will be planting in a few weeks . 10 rows, 5 72' and 5 120 ft. 18 Traminette,9 Brianna, 9 Steuben and 9 Concord. 45 Marquette,15 Noiret(harsh winter so Double A was only able to get 15 . and 15 Corot Noir.
I'm in Northern Indiana, very good clay soil. Only had to amend with 12-12-12 last fall and will apply remaining in June. 

I just wanted to make sure 4 ft was long enough for top wire cordons on each side...looks like I'm fine according to everyone.
1)Did you let your vines Bush out to aid in establishing strong root system in first year? I guess I'll be doing that and also tying strongest to bamboo stake to see if it will make it to top wire? 
2)One trunk or two ? Not sure on this one? Planned on one trunk for my top wire cordon, but not sure from pics if Grapeman and GregND have two on pics I've seen of their sites...their advice is pretty much my bible my short time on this site!


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## GreginND (Apr 1, 2015)

Your spacing should be just fine. I planted mine just like BigH described.

Don't be so bent on establishing trunks this year. Let the plants grow as much as they can to develop the roots. I did no pruning the first year and cut them all down to the ground for the second year. IF you happen to have some good canes for trunks the first year, by all means use them. But don't force it. The important thing is root establishment for long term health of the vine. Your vines will grow vigorously the second year.

One trunk or two is a complicated questions. I have heard different things. For TWC I think it can take longer to establish a new trunk, so having two trunks is a good insurance policy. If one has trouble, the other may be fine and you are not completely out for that season. Ideally the trunks are best established in alternate years as the environmental factors that may weaken the trunks wouldn't hit both at the same time. But that is not always possible. 

BUT, don't sweat it. Grapes are weeds and will grow like crazy. Take what the plant gives you and work with what it does. There is no right or wrong way about trunks. If the plant gives you one good healthy trunk, use it. If you have two, use them. Choose a good trunk that is about pencil thickness with good internode spacing. Do not use bull canes as trunks (easily identified as thick, oddly shaped - not round canes, very wide internode spacings and growing very fast). These canes tend to be weaker and will not be trunks that will survive well.

Good luck! Your site prep looks great. I planned to put my posts in first, but that never happened. I wish I had because it would have been easier.


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## BigH (Apr 1, 2015)

rpdranc said:


> Hey thanks Big H for taking the time to reply. My site sounds pretty similar to yours. How did your vines do in first year?
> I will be planting in a few weeks . 10 rows, 5 72' and 5 120 ft. 18 Traminette,9 Brianna, 9 Steuben and 9 Concord. 45 Marquette,15 Noiret(harsh winter so Double A was only able to get 15 . and 15 Corot Noir.



Well, my frontenac and frontenac blanc grew like crazy. Essentially up to the 6' wire and back to the ground. Most of the other varieties grew well two. My edelweiss and petite pearl were the laggards of the bunch. 

I planted some marquette and brianna. Brianna was really vigorous too. It wanted to reach for the sky. Marquette was mid range for me. Grew well, but not as vigorous as brianna and frontenac. I wanted to plant corot noir, but decided against it on the advice of Iowa State's viticulture department. It hasn't proven to be cold hardy enough in their trials for my region. I am not familiar with the others. 

I planted 86 vines in 5 rows total. 3 rows are GDC, 1 is VSP or MWC, and one is TWC. 2 GDC rows and the TWC row were planted at 8 ft vince spacing. The remaining two were at 9 feet. 



rpdranc said:


> 1)Did you let your vines Bush out to aid in establishing strong root system in first year? I guess I'll be doing that and also tying strongest to bamboo stake to see if it will make it to top wire?



I did not let them bush out. I put them in grow tubes. But that decision was dictated by protection and not growth. First, I purchased 1x vines from double A vineyards that came with really nice roots. Second, and most important, I was about 6 months late getting my vineyard floor prepped. I planted on old pasture ground. I should have done a burndown roundup application the prior summer and tilled the prior fall. I did none of that. Instead, I plowed and disc'ed the same spring that I planted. That meant I had some serious weeds to battle. 

Grow tubes really ought to be called protection tubes. They are more about protecting from deer and roundup than they are about growing the vine. I tubed for protection. Bushing out is better for root development, but it makes weed and critter control a bigger challenge. Iowa State has put out some literature that claims weed control is the primary cause of early vineyard failure. Since I was behind the game a bit, I made choices to mitigate that cause of failure.



rpdranc said:


> 2)One trunk or two ? Not sure on this one? Planned on one trunk for my top wire cordon, but not sure from pics if Grapeman and GregND have two on pics I've seen of their sites...their advice is pretty much my bible my short time on this site!



Their advice is pretty much gospel for me as well. With respect to trunks, I have decide to just go with what each vine gives me. If it wants to give me 2 nice trunks now, I take them. If it gives me one, or one plus a runt, then I just keep one and will try to renew a second one sometime down the road. 

Everything I planted is cold hardy, so I'm not sure if the second trunk will ever serve its intended emergency purpose.

Good luck. Greg is spot on, these things are weeds and they will grow like a weed (as long as other weeds don't take over). You will have a lot of fun watching them mature through the summer.

H^2


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