# Kit wines vs Concentrates



## maddog (Nov 9, 2012)

I have made a few kits and have enjoyed the results. I've also seen some concetrated grape juices for sale. The plain concentrate is quite a bit cheaper than a kit. Enough for 5 gallaons averages 35-40 for 5 gallons. I have most of the chemicals/ingredients etc.. to make wine "from scratch". Kits always turn out well for me. What kind of testing etc.. would I have to do to a concentrate to help ensure it will be a blanaced wine? I'm assuming ph and acidity etc.. 

I'm trying to graduate from a basic "recipe wine maker" (I have Terry Garry's book) to a little more in depth approach that will help ensure I get a good result. I've made a few from scratch that were pretty good, and had a few turn out not so great. When you have to wait a couple months to try a wine, I'd prefer to get it right the first time rather than trying fix something that didnt quite turn out. If the testing equipment is fairly expensive I'll stick with kits.


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## joeswine (Nov 9, 2012)

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## deboard (Nov 9, 2012)

If you are talking about the cans of concentrate, such as Alexander's or Suncal, then I'd say they are not good enough for 5 gallons, I have tried and the end result is very thin. They are OK for 3-3.5 gallons, but I almost always add some fruit to "dress it up" a bit. For example, I added 10 lbs of strawberries to a can of riesling and made 3.5 gallons. It turned out pretty good, people liked it. 

But, I've never made one without adding fruit that I liked. I've tried Blackberry-Pinot Noir, Cherry Barbera, Passion Fruit Riesling, and some others, but the combinations I named turned out ok. I also make a wine I call "Kitchen Sink" that is one or two cans of Alexander's + all the random fruit I have in the freezer. Some of those have turned out good as well. 

As far as recipes, I don't follow one, I have a SG in mind and adjust with sugar, I test the acid and modify accordingly, add the rest of the ingredients such as tannin according to what I generally like, add the prescribed amount of pectic enzyme and sulfite, wait a day and pitch yeast. See what happens!


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## Tom_S (Nov 11, 2012)

I've never made wine from a kit, but always used store bought juice, fresh fruit, or cans of concentrate. And I've never followed a recipe except for my own. I either use what I know works well, or else try experimenting.

I agree with deboard, I highly recommend using three cans of Alexander's concentrate for a 5 gallon batch rather than just two like they say. Two cans seems to leave a thin bodied wine, but three cans seems to work OK. The first wine I made with Alexander's was the Johannesburg Riesling, and while it made a good wine it was a bit thin. So ever since then every time I order some of their concentrate I always get three cans, and they've turned out well.


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## Turock (Nov 12, 2012)

I agree with Tom. Don't follow the directions because they want you to add too much water. 3 cans to make 5 gallons is the way to go with Alexander's. In 2010 we made an Alexander's Pinot Noir and did an MLF on it. It turned out REALLY well. The wine now has nice chocolate notes on it and the dry red drinkers just love it.

We've made the 3 gallon recipe with Vinter's Harvest--it was red raspberry---and it STILL turned out thin,thin,thin. In our ecperience, Alexander's seems to be the best concentrate out there.


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## DoctorCAD (Nov 12, 2012)

I just started 2 batches of California Concentrate (Williams Brewing) wine, one Pino Noir and one Merlot. They came with 2 gallon size cans of concentrate, yeast and oak powder. Both ran around 1.09 when mixed per the directions, no sugar or acid mix was added. The Merlot juice was fantastic tasting! Both concentrates were 68 brix before diluting. The Pino seems to "look" like a Pino does (a little thin) and the Merlot is very dark.

I have used other concentrates before with mixed results. I hope these work, although they don't make very many varieties of reds.


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## Tom_S (Nov 12, 2012)

I used one can of Alexander's for a 1 gallon batch and it made a good full-bodied wine.


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## BottomsUp (Nov 21, 2012)

Will you be adding any fruit to the mix? Black berries, black cherries?


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## BottomsUp (Nov 21, 2012)

Doc:
Just for clarification here, these kits came with two, 128floz cans of concentrate or one can of 46floz concentrate that makes 2+ gal of wine?


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## deboard (Nov 21, 2012)

I think 1 can to 1 gallon would work out well, given that these cans are approximately 1/3 of a gallon at 68 brix, which works out to just under 23 brix once you extend to 1 gallon with water. So you shouldn't need to add any sugar at that point. 

But, given the price of these cans is around $20 (higher on some websites - closer to $30-$35), you're looking at 60-90 bucks for 3 gallons, which is right in the range for a low end kit. I think I'd rather buy a cheap kit and modify the process a bit to improve it, which a lot of people on here have done. 

My preferred use of these cans is to add a little body to a fruit wine that would be lacking it otherwise.


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## olusteebus (Nov 21, 2012)

I am going to try 2 cans of Alexanders cabernet Sauvignon and 5 jars of smuckers seedless blackberry jam that longtrain gave me. Sounds good to me and I will report out in about 6 monhts hopefully.


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## BottomsUp (Nov 24, 2012)

I'm still a bit confused here.
I have many gallons of experience with fruit wines having spent several years playing with it.
Now I'm moving into making beer and grape wines, specificly, Merlots and White Zins.

To my experience, two 46oz cans of fruit concentrate (at $18.00 ea mol) combined with enough water to make up 5.5 gallons total, made a wonderful, full bodied fruit wine.

The Vintners Reserve Merlot kit box says " 10 liters produces 23 liters" and "2.6 US gal produces 6 US Gal's".
That would be about 43% grape to water.
That sound about right?

Then maybe a can of Blackberry concentrate?


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## BottomsUp (Nov 24, 2012)

Gotta go find a discount fridge for the shed to store two(+) 5gal carboys in.

Fter producing over 360 bottles of various fruit wines and leaving them all behind in NC when I moved back to FL, I keep asking myself, Why the F*** am I doing this again?

CORRECTION

I looked back at my notes here and I apparently stated "46oz cans" when I meant 96oz.
My appologies.


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## ldmack3 (Nov 24, 2012)

DoctorCAD
Yesterday I started my first Williams kit, a Malbec. Initial SG was 1.103 at just under 5 gallons. I'm adding a grape pack from a Megiloli kit I never used. Starting to foam good this morning at 78F.
Be interested to hear how yours turn out and if anyone else has experience with Williams. I've always done kits, RJS, MM, CC and am a little skeptical of anything in cans.


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## BottomsUp (Nov 24, 2012)

For a Nice Merlot:
How about two liters of Red Grape Concentrate and one 96oz can of Blackberry Fruit base?
Makes 6gal (20 liters mol)

Anybody have any thoughts?


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## DoctorCAD (Nov 24, 2012)

BottomsUp said:


> Doc:
> Just for clarification here, these kits came with two, 128floz cans of concentrate or one can of 46floz concentrate that makes 2+ gal of wine?



2 large cans to make 5 gallons


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## DoctorCAD (Nov 24, 2012)

BottomsUp said:


> For a Nice Merlot:
> How about two liters of Red Grape Concentrate and one 96oz can of Blackberry Fruit base?
> Makes 6gal (20 liters mol)
> 
> Anybody have any thoughts?



Won't be a Merlot unless you use Merlot grapes or juice...


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## Bartman (Nov 24, 2012)

DoctorCAD said:


> Won't be a Merlot unless you use Merlot grapes or juice...



Well, now you're just trying to be technical! 

I assume he means Merlot-ish...whatever that is.


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## BottomsUp (Nov 24, 2012)

Hmmm.
I'm learning again.
No. I'm afraid to admit I'm ignorant when it comes to grapes and grape wines. I need to read more on this.
I'm wondering now though, what I will get if I prepare such a mix as this.
I'm looking for the hint of blackberry mixed with the semi sweet, semi dry red.


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## Turock (Nov 27, 2012)

Well, there is no law saying you can't co-ferment different grapes or fruits or any combination thereof. There is only one problem with this, and that is how much of each should you use in order to get balanced flavor and be sure the more delicate flavors aren't over-run by the stronger ones.

So what we do is to ferment each one seperately, then when they are fully aged do some bench testing by blending. We do quite a bit of blending and we make all our wines with intense flavor by not diluting with water. Then they can stand on their own in a blend. Belnding weak wine doesn't really add anything--it only takes away from a good tasting wine. If I was going to do a blackberry Merlot--which is fabulous, by the way because there is a winery that makes this blend and is one of our favorites---I would do them seperate and then blend so you get the proportions right. You can buy Merlot concentrate---one of the better concentrates is Alexander's if you can't get any Merlot grapes. Use 3 cans to make 5 gallons. Not 2 cans to make 5 gallons like the directions say--it's too dilute that way. We make Pinot Noir from Alexander's and do an MLF on it--it is REALLY good, with nice chocolate notes on it like Pinot Noir should have. You can use blackberry jam, or fruit if you can get it, or concentrate for the blackberry. Good luck.


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