# Elderberry concentrate



## Tball (Aug 28, 2020)

I've been off the forum for a while, but I'm still making country wine, albeit in a bit lazier way. I have less time for fruit picking, so I use concentrates. I just discovered that Brownwood Acres now has elderberry concentrate in quarts. I'm wondering if anyone has developed a recipe that they like using elderberry concentrate.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 29, 2020)

If the price is fair - the content looks good (100% Elderberry Juice, no other juices used as fillers, etc. ) Keep in mind that Elderberries are the only fruit I've heard folks talk about using in lesser quantity per gallon. Not certain as I've only made one batch of Elderberry and that was with "Vintners Harvest" juice which is also 100% Elderberry juice. Their can is supposed to be good for either a 5 gallon batch (Stated to be a light-bodied wine result) or a 3 gallon batch described as being a "Full-Bodied" wine. My batch that just went into bottles after 14 months is very solid flavor and almost reminds me of a red grape wine but with more tartness to it.
Looking at the prices - The Vintners Harvest is a 96 ounce can good for 3 gallons is $11.00 more than the brownwood acres 32 ounce bottle which states it's good for 64 servings of unknown volume. Normally most servings of beverages are 8 oz. if that is their guidance then that would make the Brownwood Acres product better priced *IF* that 8oz serving size is correct. I would contact them to be sure and find out when they will have it back in stock. Both are free shipping.

Personally I might us the quart from Brownwood for a 3 gallon batch - that would still be less expensive than the Vintners Harvest. 

OH and if you look up the Vintner's Harvest Elderberry - they have the recipe on the can and I think on their web site. The biggest unknown is how much sugar it going to take to bring that FruitFast juice up to your desired starting SG. On their bottle it say only 30 calories per serving - that's a VERY low sugar content. But sugar isn't that expensive.

This an image of the back of the Vintner's Harvest can showing the 3 gallon recipe.


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## wood1954 (Aug 30, 2020)

Not quite so lazy but you can make good wine from dried elderberries at a decent price.


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## Tball (Sep 6, 2020)

Thanks for the info. Now there's a twist. While cleaning out the freezer, we found 10-1 quart bags of last years blueberries. I think I'll try and do an elder and blue mix. I already have a name picked out for the new batch. "Don't Panicle." It makes sense in my warp.


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## hounddawg (Sep 9, 2020)

check out www.homewinery.com 
they sell 55 kinds of reduced concentrates, all pure single fruit/grape/berry each concentrate is 1/2 gallon and good for 4 gallons, if ordered online, if ordered over the phone you can buy pints to go with the 1/2 gal concentrates. descent prices , great product, water reduced make a much stronger concentrate, i mainly go with real fruits and berries, but on bad years or bad health this is my go site, they say 1/2 gallon concentrate per 5 gallon water, but if you want robust. go only 4 gal per 1/2 gallon concentrate, 
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 11, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> check out www.homewinery.com
> they sell 55 kinds of reduced concentrates, all pure single fruit/grape/berry each concentrate is 1/2 gallon and good for 4 gallons, if ordered online, if ordered over the phone you can buy pints to go with the 1/2 gal concentrates. descent prices , great product, water reduced make a much stronger concentrate, i mainly go with real fruits and berries, but on bad years or bad health this is my go site, they say 1/2 gallon concentrate per 5 gallon water, but if you want robust. go only 4 gal per 1/2 gallon concentrate,
> Dawg



That's just the info I was looking for today Dawg. Except for Banana, I have been using frozen berries from Walmart for my fruit wines but they have not been stocking enough for me lately, and I hate to hoard it during these times, so I have been looking for an alternative. Not a lot of shopping choices here in the Ozarks, as you know. 

Does your ratio of 1/2 gallon of their juice to 4-5 gal of wine not include any crushed fruit at all?


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## hounddawg (Sep 11, 2020)

reeflections said:


> That's just the info I was looking for today Dawg. Except for Banana, I have been using frozen berries from Walmart for my fruit wines but they have not been stocking enough for me lately, and I hate to hoard it during these times, so I have been looking for an alternative. Not a lot of shopping choices here in the Ozarks, as you know.
> 
> Does your ratio of 1/2 gallon of their juice to 4-5 gal of wine not include any crushed fruit at all?


i use each 1/2 gal concentrate to 4 gal water, for a strong robust wine, 3# 1/2 gal of concentrate plus 12 gallon water to give you 13.5 gallon wine, so with topping off you end up with 12 finish gallons of wine, the one below is 1/2 gal blueberry, 1.2 gal black raspberry and 1/2 gal tart cherry you can see the color is as robust as the flavor, if you like blushes or lighter wines then go 4.5 to 5 gal to the 1/2 gal concentrate,
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 11, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> i use each 1/2 gal concentrate to 4 gal water, for a strong robust wine, 3# 1/2 gal of concentrate plus 12 gallon water to give you 13.5 gallon wine, so with topping off you end up with 12 finish gallons of wine....
> Dawg



That sounds good Dawg. Thanks!

I went to their site and the prices seem very reasonable. They don't give you much info on the juice though. I assume it 100% one juice pasteurized, and without any additives? Does it need to be refrigerated? Shelf life? 

I ask because their shipping is reasonable when you buy more than one bottle.

Oh, and to get this thread back on track, I think I will try their elderberry.


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## hounddawg (Sep 11, 2020)

reeflections said:


> That sounds good Dawg. Thanks!
> 
> I went to their site and the prices seem very reasonable. They don't give you much info on the juice though. I assume it 100% one juice pasteurized, and without any additives? Does it need to be refrigerated? Shelf life?
> 
> ...


yep set all your extra's in the freezer, they will not freeze solid, and a few years ago i called and talked to the owner, he started this in 1955, and he swore everything was single fruit/berry/grape
you can ask @dralarms he spends close to $400 a year there, 
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 12, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> yep set all your extra's in the freezer, they will not freeze solid, and a few years ago i called and talked to the owner, he started this in 1955, and he swore everything was single fruit/berry/grape
> you can ask @dralarms he spends close to $400 a year there,
> Dawg



OK. I'm gonna give them a try. 
Thanks again!


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## FTC Wines (Sep 12, 2020)

I too spend lots a year ther, about $300. I use one pint of their concentrate to one gallon of water, comes out great. I do use my Vinmetric 300 to check acid and ph. Been using them for 10 years. Roy


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## crushday (Sep 12, 2020)

I went to homewinery.com and checked out their site. Not a lot of info on any of their concentrate listings so I emailed them to get more information about the Elderberry. I got a response within an hour. Here's the conversation over email:

Can you tell me more about the Elderberry concentrate? Not any information on the site except the price.

Is it 100% juice?
Are there berries within?
Is there a printed recipe?

thanks, Crushday

Answer:

It’s 100 percent juice, it’s blended with grape juice and natural essence. No pulp or berries just concentrated juice. “Our” recipe or setup sheet is on the info page of the website. Any and all questions are welcome by phone or email thanks 

Josh
Home winery supply


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## reeflections (Sep 12, 2020)

crushday said:


> It’s 100 percent juice, it’s blended with grape juice and natural essence
> 
> Josh
> Home winery supply



That's disappointing. I just ordered 4 bottles. 

Thanks for that info Josh.


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## hounddawg (Sep 12, 2020)

reeflections said:


> That's disappointing. I just ordered 4 bottles.
> 
> Thanks for that info Josh.


the ole man lied to me, that changes my thinking',
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 12, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> the ole man lied to me, that changes my thinking',
> Dawg



If the wine comes out tasting good, it doesn't matter.


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## hounddawg (Sep 12, 2020)

reeflections said:


> If the wine comes out tasting good, it doesn't matter.


I've used most all non grape from them, and they have all been very good, back in 2005 or 2006,,, i called and a gruff older man told me he had been doing this since 1955, and singe fruit, I've got better than 40 gallons aging from there right now, your'e from the Ozarks same as me, and that, rubs me wrong knowing I've vouched for a untruth, i'll not stop using them because there product is very good, but that crap sure makes me gun shy to recommend anyone, 
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 12, 2020)

Well I don't hold it against you at all. Maybe that ol' guy is gone now anyway. If you think it's a good product, that's good enuf for me. I ordered 1 each of blueberry, apricot, cranberry and passion fruit. I'm looking forward to trying them all and seeing what happens. 

I do understand how you feel though, I've been there myself.


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## dralarms (Sep 12, 2020)

That old guy is my new neighbor. They must have changed something since he retired because he told me the same Thing.


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## hounddawg (Sep 12, 2020)

dralarms said:


> That old guy is my new neighbor. They must have changed something since he retired because he told me the same Thing.


no offence intended to your neighbor at all, i was just sitting here wondering, i'd met and talked to SAM Walton several times, and while he lived wal-mart was great, but the johnny come lately s, are so greedy that most everything is mainly from overseas, it does make me feel better knowing the guy told me straight, and the greedy johnny come latelys are greedy, thank you for telling me, i feel much better, 
Dawg AKA, Richard


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## hounddawg (Sep 12, 2020)

now to remove my foot from my mouth
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 12, 2020)

It would behoove them to put a little more info on their site. A simple ingredients list wouldn't be that hard and it would help negate the bad PR that is in threads like this.


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## hounddawg (Sep 12, 2020)

reeflections said:


> It would behoove them to put a little more info on their site. A simple ingredients list wouldn't be that hard and it would help negate the bad PR that is in threads like this.


you are so right, I've swoar by them for a few years, but i must admit i never new when they switched, yes, lack of information was why i'd called them back before i used them, i have used them for many a wine. 
Dawg


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## dralarms (Sep 12, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> now to remove my foot from my mouth
> Dawg


no need for that. It’s all good


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## Scooter68 (Sep 13, 2020)

Ah well it happens dawg. We'll see how the two bottles of Black Raspberry turn out. I'll check with them on the content in it as well. Their mixing Grape with Fruit makes it more believeable now since I can't find Black Raspberry anyplace else with the exception of Commercial distributors.

By the way in thinking about this - Isn't Elderberry a pretty stout juice on it's own? Could it be that this one was done as a blend for that reason? Just wondering and not defending or attacking anyone on this.


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## hounddawg (Sep 13, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Ah well it happens dawg. We'll see how the two bottles of Black Raspberry turn out. I'll check with them on the content in it as well. Their mixing Grape with Fruit makes it more believeable now since I can't find Black Raspberry anyplace else with the exception of Commercial distributors.
> 
> By the way in thinking about this - Isn't Elderberry a pretty stout juice on it's own? Could it be that this one was done as a blend for that reason? Just and not defending or attacking anyone on this.


yes elderberry is extremely robust flavor, i have 25 or so black elderberry bushes, but with it being dry this season, so got , not enough to pick, or even much less, same with blackberries, pears, peaches. not a thing, and pasture, i'm feeding hay a easy 2 1/2 months early this year
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 13, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> By the way in thinking about this - Isn't Elderberry a pretty stout juice on it's own? Could it be that this one was done as a blend for that reason? ....



I've been thinking the same thing. I hope the ingredients are listed on the bottles when I receive them.


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## dralarms (Sep 13, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I've been thinking the same thing. I hope the ingredients are listed on the bottles when I receive them.


They were not on the last bottles I received


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## Daboyleroy (Sep 13, 2020)

Check out 


https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CEH/DFDCS/CDPH%20Document%20Library/FDB/FoodSafetyProgram/GeneralFoodLabelingRequirements.pdf


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## Scooter68 (Sep 13, 2020)

Daboyleroy said:


> Check out
> 
> 
> https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CEH/DFDCS/CDPH%20Document%20Library/FDB/FoodSafetyProgram/GeneralFoodLabelingRequirements.pdf



And your point is???
That applies to products sold IN California. 
AND of course we know that California has created a ridiculously complex encyclopedia of "Consumer Protection" laws. 
Then there is the point that state laws regarding food labeling vary outrageously from state to state. Best example is the lack of standard terms required for foods: Best By: xx/xx/xxx, Expires on: xx/xx/xxxx, Use Before: xx/xx/xxxx


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## hounddawg (Sep 13, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> And your point is???
> That applies to products sold IN California.
> AND of course we know that California has created a ridiculously complex encyclopedia of "Consumer Protection" laws.
> Then there is the point that state laws regarding food labeling vary outrageously from state to state. Best example is the lack of standard terms required for foods: Best By: xx/xx/xxx, Expires on: xx/xx/xxxx, Use Before: xx/xx/xxxx


been looking around , just found this, but eyes are heavy, www.juiceconcentratepuree.com let me know what you think, i research more tomorrow.
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 14, 2020)

Dawg - I've not found that type of supplier (commercial bulk shippers) to be price friendly for small purchases - shipping costs seem pretty high most times due to their focus on larger orders for manufacturers of processed foods etc. BUT never hurts to check it out. I contacted one supplier a year or two ago and as I remembered the shipping was like 1/3 to 1/2 of the product price when ordering a 5 gallon pail. For me storing (Freezing 2-3 gallons would be a challenge. (Repacking it) And even just making 2 gallons of concentrate into wine, for my scale of wine making, would be rough. At a 4 to 1 that would be 8 gallons or more. We'll see. Maybe buying and planting black raspberries is what I should be doing. OR taking some of our wild black raspberries and cultivating them to get a larger number of bushes. Thankfully their silver stalks are easy to identify if I do it before the die back for the winter.

In regards to the source you and dralarms have been using - I guess it's their business what the put in their juice but I it's likely my first order will be my last unless the juice is exceptionally good. It's a shame they aren't more forthcoming with even just a simple label on the product listing contents clearly. My order hopefully will arrive this week. (2 x Half Gallons of Black Raspberry). 

Here is the response I got from H... W....... - It's Vague as to the ingredients with no mention of percentages at least:
"they have sulfite in them, those three mentioned have grape juice with a natural essence as well. Our setup sheet is on our website with our recommendation, but you certainly can make smaller batches for more flavor if you desire."

What is "natural essence" ? Your guess is as good as mine.


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## mikewatkins727 (Sep 14, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> been looking around , just found this, but eyes are heavy, www.juiceconcentratepuree.com let me know what you think, i research more tomorrow.
> Dawg


I went to the web site Dawg quoted, What is NFC juice?


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## Scooter68 (Sep 14, 2020)

mikewatkins727 said:


> I went to the web site Dawg quoted, What is NFC juice?



From that site:




*CONVENTIONAL AND ORGANIC NFC JUICES, NOT-FROM-CONCENTRATE*




* Natural direct squeezed NFC fruit juices (not-from-concentrate)*
⇨ Processed from conventional and organic fruits and vegetables
⇨ An extensive range of flavors
⇨ Flexible technical specifications and bulk packaging options
⇨ Bulk juices not-from-concentrate, pack sizes starting from 5 US gallon pails
⇨ Packed in pails, drums, totes, flexitanks and tanker trucks
⇨ Aseptic and frozen options
⇨ Processed and packed without additives or preservatives
⇨ Conventional or USDA NOP organic certified
⇨ Allergen-free, Non-GMO and Kosher
⇨ Suitable for a wide range of industrial applications
⇨ From suppliers complying with highest quality standards
⇨ Domestic U.S. origin or imported products
⇨ Samples available on request
⇨ Orders from pails, pallet loads and multiple truck/container loads
⇨ Industry-leading prices with customized payment options
⇨ Spot orders and long term contracts


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## reeflections (Sep 14, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> What is "natural essence" ? Your guess is as good as mine.



Well, since beaver glands can be legally called a "natural Flavor" in strawberry ice cream, our guesses could be anything.









Does Beaver Tush Flavor Your Strawberry Shortcake? We Go Myth Busting


Heard the rumor that strawberry syrups contain flavoring from a beaver's tush? The potion was once a common food flavoring. But settle down! The time of beaver-spiked ice pops and pastries has ended.




www.npr.org


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## Scooter68 (Sep 14, 2020)

Typically blended juices are done for consumer products when the juice would be too harsh at 100% - great example would be Cranberry juice. BUT when we are making wine. It's tough to know what's going to be the result once fermentation is done and for that reason I'd rather know the degree to which my juice concentrate has been diluted. I've mentioned this before - If I make a wine that is simply overpowering with flavor, it's not hard to dilute it with a white wine that has a very mild flavor and keep the primary fruit characteristics. On the opposite end, as weak wine.... you just can't do much other than to use it as an additive to a very strong wine. 
Personally I just like to know and control what's going into my wine - before I start it. In this case the result might be great but having made a couple of batches of Black Raspberry and Blackberry wine with Wild Berries - it's going to be a shot in the dark to until the ferment is over.

Have to wait and see I guess.


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## hounddawg (Sep 14, 2020)

mikewatkins727 said:


> I went to the web site Dawg quoted, What is NFC juice?


not a clue till @Scooter68 answered, so i'm still looking, i'm,, if not to late going to look for a farmers market, this threw a major monkey wrench in my world, mainly i use fruits and berries from scratch, but this year nothing made for me or my neighbors , living very rural has advantages till dry weather hits,,, 
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 14, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> not a clue till @Scooter68 living very rural has advantages till dry weather hits,,,
> Dawg



Hey Dawg, I hear ya about rural living, but if you have been using this juice with good results, why fret. If it tastes good it is good right? Price is pretty good.

I have mostly been using frozen fruit from a Walmart Super Center about 24 miles from home. They just restocked blue berries so I drove into to town to get 21 lbs. That was half of what they had but I hate to hoard it from people that just like to put it on their cereal in the morning. I watch their stock online so I can put some in the freezer when they get it in. I also picked up some bananas while I was there. I figure I'll just keep stocking my freezer while I brew up the juice I ordered and see what happens.

I also got 6# of mixed berries and I'm starting some DB for the first time tonight. There's always SP and I have also been making a lot of ginger wine lately from ginger powder from Amazon and it is delicious. Lots to hold us over til something better comes along right?


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## hounddawg (Sep 14, 2020)

reeflections said:


> Hey Dawg, I hear ya about rural living, but if you have been using this juice with good results, why fret. If it tastes good it is good right? Price is pretty good.
> 
> I have mostly been using frozen fruit from a Walmart Super Center about 24 miles from home. They just restocked blue berries so I drove into to town to get 21 lbs. That was half of what they had but I hate to hoard it from people that just like to put it on their cereal in the morning. I watch their stock online so I can put some in the freezer when they get it in. I also picked up some bananas while I was there. I figure I'll just keep stocking my freezer while I brew up the juice I ordered and see what happens.
> 
> I also got 6# of mixed berries and I'm starting some DB for the first time tonight. There's always SP and I have also been making a lot of ginger wine lately from ginger powder from Amazon and it is delicious. Lots to hold us over til something better comes along right?


yeah, your right, it was a startle though, I've never seen any blueberries for sale, i'd got some from H,W,, but never fresh or even frozen, but then again i hardly every go to town except for doctor visits ,,,, yeah i tried a DDDB variant here while back, bottled 1/3 the other 2 carboys are bulk aging, i could not help myself, i guess the ideal of a DDDB is to make a kinda lite wine, or blush, mine is very robust, an very good to me, i got close to 10 cases of skeeter pee behind my recliner, makes bulk aging other wines easy, not to mention lemon is good for many health problems, funny when you have more then you can drink ,, then i drink rarely, the doc's told me to drink 1 to 2 glasses a day, but i mainly do every other day, lol
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Sep 16, 2020)

reeflections said:


> Hey Dawg, I hear ya about rural living, but if you have been using this juice with good results, why fret. If it tastes good it is good right? Price is pretty good.
> 
> I have mostly been using frozen fruit from a Walmart Super Center about 24 miles from home. They just restocked blue berries so I drove into to town to get 21 lbs. That was half of what they had but I hate to hoard it from people that just like to put it on their cereal in the morning. I watch their stock online so I can put some in the freezer when they get it in. I also picked up some bananas while I was there. I figure I'll just keep stocking my freezer while I brew up the juice I ordered and see what happens.
> ng
> I also got 6# of mixed berries and I'm starting some DB for the first time tonight. There's always SP and I have also been making a lot of ginger wine lately from ginger powder from Amazon and it is delicious. Lots to hold us over til something better comes along right?


thought about breaking my nephews neck last night, we were kicked back drinking a glass of strawberry, he wanted to know why i was on the computer while we relaxed, told him i was looking for a farmers market, at which time he said, if your'e looking for fruits and berries,,, i'll ask my friend Caleb, turns out his buddy bought 400 acres here while back that has a orchard on it, told him to talk to his buddy, i'll pay cash, wine, both.
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 16, 2020)

For an update on the Juices from Home Winery Supply, I just got the 1/2 gallon bottles I ordered. They came pretty quick and were well packaged. I got 1 each of Blueberry, Apricot, Cranberry, and Passion Fruit. 

Except for the type of juice, price, and lot numbers, the labels were identical:

Makes 5 Gallons
Keep refrigerated

Contains fruit/grape juice, fruit/grape
extract & sulphur dioxide.
Main contain live active cultures


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## hounddawg (Sep 16, 2020)

reeflections said:


> For an update on the Juices from Home Winery Supply, I just got the 1/2 gallon bottles I ordered. They came pretty quick and were well packaged. I got 1 each of Blueberry, Apricot, Cranberry, and Passion Fruit.
> 
> Except for the type of juice, price, and lot numbers, the labels were identical:
> 
> ...


hum, i think the last i got was a cut out with the name of what flavor , tapped to the 1/2 gal milk jug, 
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 16, 2020)

reeflections said:


> For an update on the Juices from Home Winery Supply, I just got the 1/2 gallon bottles I ordered. They came pretty quick and were well packaged. I got 1 each of Blueberry, Apricot, Cranberry, and Passion Fruit.
> 
> Except for the type of juice, price, and lot numbers, the labels were identical:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. According to UPS my 2 x 1/2 gallon bottles of Black Raspberry should arrive tomorrow. Unfortunately my inclination is that unless these taste utterly fantastic, I will not be ordering from them again. I'm going to attach two labels from other wine base makers for comparison. These may not give percentages of what's in them but in most every instance I've seen the conventional process is that you put the ingredients in the order of percentage in the product from most to least. The label you describe almost seems to refuse to be straight forward and follow standard proceedures and instead seems to try to actually confuse the customer.


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## hounddawg (Sep 16, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Thanks for the update. According to UPS my 2 x 1/2 gallon bottles of Black Raspberry should arrive tomorrow. Unfortunately my inclination is that unless these taste utterly fantastic, I will not be ordering from them again. I'm going to attach two labels from other wine base makers for comparison. These may not give percentages of what's in them but in most every instance I've seen the conventional process is that you put the ingredients in the order of percentage in the product from most to least. The label you describe almost seems to refuse to be straight forward and follow standard proceedures and instead seems to try to actually confuse the customer. View attachment 66046


well they use't to be single juice, but now they ain't,, that being said i have a 2 part blackberry/1 part elderberry, a blueberry/black raspberry,tart cherry, all of which is good, but i am highly upset they did not have the nerve to label the changes, but vintners harvest still can not hold a light to H.W. to me anyway..
Dawg


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## reeflections (Sep 16, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> ...The label you describe almost seems to refuse to be straight forward and follow standard proceedures and instead seems to try to actually confuse the customer.



Exactly the way it seemed to me. We'll see how it tastes when reconstituted.


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## Yooper🍷 (Sep 16, 2020)

Not to take over this thread but it’s subject was Elderberry. So I’ll apologize now if I should have started another thread under Elderberry. Sorry!
I Started a batch of elderberry wine from a96 oz can Vintners. Because I wanted a high ABV I went with 3 gal. Juice plus 2 1/2 gal water a grape fp and 2 lbs invert sugar brought Sg from1.005 to1.053. Added yeast. 

Next day added a 4 lb blueberry fp plus yeast neut. and energizer.

Next day Sg was at 1.03 and added another 1 1/2 lb of invertsugar.

Next day had. An off smell andSg was down to 1.01 so I added another 1 1/2 lb invert sugar and tsp if yeast neut. off smell disappeared in 2 hours. Also lowered temp to 68.

next day SG back down to 1.01 Added 1 lb invert sugar which brought Sg back up to 1.02
Strained out grapes and blueberrys

Next daySG back down to 1.01 added enough invert sugar to bring SG to 1.03 and next two days still actively fermenting at 1.02 so I racked into a carboy to let it finish. Releasing gas through air lock every 2 seconds. But I tasted it - nice residual sweetness and didn’t taste like rocket fuel but warmed you all the way down like brandy does. I think I accomplished what I set out to do.


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## hounddawg (Sep 16, 2020)

Yooper🍷 said:


> Not to take over this thread but it’s subject was Elderberry. So I’ll apologize now if I should have started another thread under Elderberry. Sorry!
> I Started a batch of elderberry wine from a96 oz can Vintners. Because I wanted a high ABV I went with 3 gal. Juice plus 2 1/2 gal water a grape fp and 2 lbs invert sugar brought Sg from1.005 to1.053. Added yeast.
> 
> Next day added a 4 lb blueberry fp plus yeast neut. and energizer.
> ...


he-he, no i think we high jacked this thread, llol sorry,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Sep 16, 2020)

Yooper🍷 said:


> Not to take over this thread but it’s subject was Elderberry. So I’ll apologize now if I should have started another thread under Elderberry. Sorry!
> I Started a batch of elderberry wine from a96 oz can Vintners. Because I wanted a high ABV I went with 3 gal. Juice plus 2 1/2 gal water a grape fp and 2 lbs invert sugar brought Sg from1.005 to1.053. Added yeast.
> 
> Next day added a 4 lb blueberry fp plus yeast neut. and energizer.
> ...


i do several fairly high ABV's, on my country wines i take my SSG to 1.040, using EC-1118 yeast, i add yeast energizer an yeast nutrient an pectic enzyme , now for elderberry i like at least 5 lbs to a gallon, every time i get to say around SG 1.020 i re boost to SG 1.040 adding , i use dry sugar, if you stir with a drill then no prob, if not use a little of your wine warm it up just a little and mix 2 parts sugar to 1 part wine, then use that simple sugar to raise your SG, with out diluting you wine, but you sound like you got a good handle on your style, now just my personal presence with elderberry it must be bulk aged to be really good, just my 2 cents,,
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 16, 2020)

In fairness to all - The original post was asking about a source of elderberry concentrate more so than the making of an elderberry wine. So all-in-all the actual subject was sources of concentrates and in particular Elderberry - no high-jacking committed. 

Right now sources seem to be changing and as we have apparently learned, one source appears to have cut corners without announcing that they did so. 

When we discuss sources - such discussions are pretty significant. 

Glad your elderberry Blueberry blend wine turned out well.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 17, 2020)

reeflections said:


> If the wine comes out tasting good, it doesn't matter.


A couple of years ago I made an impulse purchase, a gallon of Vintner's Best elderberry. I started the wine and then read the label. -- first item on the list was corn syrup, second was apple juice, elderberry was down the list.

I got REALLY irritated. Not at the vendor, but at myself for not reading the label.

Now? Everyone who tastes it, loves it. Enough so there's only a couple of bottles left. [I'm thinking of making more as my son's girlfriend and her mom love it. It's good to establish a positive relationship with the in-laws!]

There is no problem, other than in my own mind. While I swore I'd not buy their product again ... let's be honest -- the vendor did not lie. They were totally above board and honest.

The point to my story (yes, I've come to the end) is that if the final result is good, it's good.

That said, I appreciate @hounddawg's irritation with an ingredient list that is inaccurate. That would steer me away from that vendor -- if they're lying about what the real ingredients are, what else are they lying about?


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## Scooter68 (Sep 17, 2020)

Here's the actual label and receipt for my purchase received today. Yeah, that's too vague for me. It's going to have to be very impressive to buy again. Especially if their site had NO content information. They can change it whenever and you won't know. I'm hoping it turns out well and I have some home grown Triple berry wine to compare it to - (BlackRaspberry, Red Raspberry, BlackBerry (all home grown and wild berries except for about 1.5 lbs which are the Red Raspberries.) The triple berry is potent stuff with about 7-8lbs for the 1 gallon batch.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 17, 2020)

Ok since this thread started off discussing sources of juice I believe this comment is appropriate. Today my 3 gallon batch of Blackberry wine from a 96 oz can of Vintners Harvest (VH) had an SG reading of 1.004. So it's essentially finished but for another day or two. FLAVOR - yup Dawg you got it. It just doesn't compare to my homegrown blackberry wine. I have had good batches of Black Currant, and Plum but not having made any of those wines from pure fruit home-grown or orchard source, I cannot do a full up comparison. This Blackberry that is basically finished has enough sweetness at 1.004 that I believe I can judge it fairly. It's good, but not nearly as good as our wild blackberry wine.
So I'll lower my flag and stop waving it for that brand of juice. Sigh. Guess I'll have to look for another source of black currant juice cause I love that flavor even the VH brand juice produced a good wine but... what am I missing? I don't know.... yet.


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## hounddawg (Sep 17, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> A couple of years ago I made an impulse purchase, a gallon of Vintner's Best elderberry. I started the wine and then read the label. -- first item on the list was corn syrup, second was apple juice, elderberry was down the list.
> 
> I got REALLY irritated. Not at the vendor, but at myself for not reading the label.
> 
> ...


come to find out thru @dralarms , the original man that i talked to back when i started buying it, and now their are 2 different men running it, but the label still do list nothing but the concentrate you order, i noticed here while back , that they had always sold 53 kinds of concentrate, but now years later and the older man retired now they sell 55 kinds of concentrate.
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Sep 17, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Here's the actual label and receipt for my purchase received today. Yeah, that's too vague for me. It's going to have to be very impressive to buy again. Especially if their site had NO content information. They can change it whenever and you won't know. I'm hoping it turns out well and I have some home grown Triple berry wine to compare it to - (BlackRaspberry, Red Raspberry, BlackBerry (all home grown and wild berries except for about 1.5 lbs which are the Red Raspberries.) The triple berry is potent stuff with about 7-8lbs for the 1 gallon batch.
> 
> 
> View attachment 66068


is that your h.w. concentrate? mine only said black raspberry, blackberry, or sour cherry, and was taped on with clear tape. 
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 19, 2020)

I suppose that it would be worthwhile for someone who is in the area and has done a bit of business with this company, to contact the folks at Homewinery personally and just discuss how their site and labels, while not misleading, are certainly not the most helpful. All they would have to do is to put on their site and their labels a CLEAR description of what they are selling. The current label is just very confusing and really leaves one with more questions than answers. I'm not saying this is a accurate label for what I bought (Black Raspberry Concentrate) but at least if the label followed the conventions of order of content it would provide us some clarity:
*Clear description - Ingredients: Grape Juice, Black Raspberry juice, Sulfur Dioxide *
(By convention this type of label states that there is more Grape Juice than Black Raspberry juice in the product.)

*Current description: Contains Fruit/grape juice, fruit/grape extract & sulphur dioxide *
_(Does it actually contain ANY Black Raspberry juice? One could defend a statement that actually it does NOT contain ANY Black Raspberry juice based on what is written and in fact if you notice the second item after "contains" is fruit/grape extract it could in fact be exactly a highly processed Black Raspberry extract and NOT a concentrated "Juice" in traditional terms - Extracts can have more than just water removed from the original item)_

(This is on the actual and only label of the product I bought)





_*Sorry if this sounds like a rant but these days there are many out there literally ripping people off with vague information about their "products." This company could help themselves and all home wine makers with a little clarity.*

And as I know people like to get technical from time to time - read these definitions of "Extract" carefully It leaves a door open for a lot of different interpretations The purple highlighting is mine to make it easier to focus.:_

*From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary*

extract *verb*

ex·tract | \ ik-ˈstrakt

, usually in sense 5 ˈek-ˌstrakt \
extracted; extracting; extracts

Definition of extract

Transitive *verb*

1a : to draw forth (as by research) extract data
b : to pull or take out forcibly extracted a wisdom tooth
c : to obtain by much effort from someone unwilling extracted a confession
2a : to withdraw (something, *such as a juice or a constituent element) by physical or chemical process*
b : to treat with a solvent so as to remove a soluble substance
3 : to separate (a metal) from an ore
4 : to determine (a mathematical root) by calculation
5 : to select (excerpts) and copy out or cite

extract *noun*

ex·tract | \ ˈek-ˌstrakt

1 : a selection from a writing or discourse : excerpt
2 : *a product (such as an essence or concentrate) prepared by extracting especially : a solution (as in alcohol) of essential constituents of a complex material (such as meat or an aromatic plant)*


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## winemaker81 (Sep 21, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Sorry if this sounds like a rant


Nope, I don't see a rant. You're asking for truth in advertising, which IMO is fair.


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## hounddawg (Sep 22, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> I suppose that it would be worthwhile for someone who is in the area and has done a bit of business with this company, to contact the folks at Homewinery personally and just discuss how their site and labels, while not misleading, are certainly not the most helpful. All they would have to do is to put on their site and their labels a CLEAR description of what they are selling. The current label is just very confusing and really leaves one with more questions than answers. I'm not saying this is a accurate label for what I bought (Black Raspberry Concentrate) but at least if the label followed the conventions of order of content it would provide us some clarity:
> *Clear description - Ingredients: Grape Juice, Black Raspberry juice, Sulfur Dioxide *
> (By convention this type of label states that there is more Grape Juice than Black Raspberry juice in the product.)
> 
> ...


none of mine every had that on the label, all my labels just said the name of the fruit or berry, but i just run outta the old, i kept spares in the freezer, if you find a good single fruit/berry concentrate and let me know, I'll do likewise,,,,
Dawg


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## FTC Wines (Sep 22, 2020)

Ok, Last night we had a half bottle of my HomeWwinery’s BkE, that’s half BlackBerry half Elderberry. Made in 2018. We also opened a bottle of Cab 2016, that we made from Pardo California grapes. Well after doing sips out of the 2 glasses we said “ why are we destemming, crushing, doing MLF’s, when the BkE is almost as good”. And it’s way less than half the cost! We do use one pint of Home Winery concentrate to one gallon of water. NOT 4 pints to 5 gallons as per their directions. Just my 2 cents: Don’t really care if it’s not 100% of the juice listed on the label, if we like it this much! Roy


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## hounddawg (Sep 22, 2020)

FTC Wines said:


> Ok, Last night we had a half bottle of my HomeWwinery’s BkE, that’s half BlackBerry half Elderberry. Made in 2018. We also opened a bottle of Cab 2016, that we made from Pardo California grapes. Well after doing sips out of the 2 glasses we said “ why are we destemming, crushing, doing MLF’s, when the BkE is almost as good”. And it’s way less than half the cost! We do use one pint of Home Winery concentrate to one gallon of water. NOT 4 pints to 5 gallons as per their directions. Just my 2 cents: Don’t really care if it’s not 100% of the juice listed on the label, if we like it this much! Roy


give it 3 more years, it is only warming up now, the longer you age elderberry the better it gets, same for blackberry,,,,
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 22, 2020)

FTC Wines said:


> Ok, Last night we had a half bottle of my HomeWwinery’s BkE, that’s half BlackBerry half Elderberry. Made in 2018. We also opened a bottle of Cab 2016, that we made from Pardo California grapes. Well after doing sips out of the 2 glasses we said “ why are we destemming, crushing, doing MLF’s, when the BkE is almost as good”. And it’s way less than half the cost! We do use one pint of Home Winery concentrate to one gallon of water. NOT 4 pints to 5 gallons as per their directions. Just my 2 cents: Don’t really care if it’s not 100% of the juice listed on the label, if we like it this much! Roy



It's all about what YOU like. If you are happy then, that's what matters to you.

The problem some of us are having is that we really don't know what we are getting. It could be anything from a conentrate honest grape juice and "X" juice (X being the name of the juice on the label) or it could be Grape Juice and a highly processed extract of the fruit on the label. (Meaning a good bit of chemistry and processing that leaves behind some good natural elements and adds in some not so good chemicals. We just don't know what is actually in there due to the vague label on the containers and NO ingredients list on their site. These days I'm a bit surprised that they can get away with that in the state of Michigan or any state in this country.


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## reeflections (Sep 22, 2020)

Final taste is most important to me, but I agree with Scooter that knowing the contents of any food product is important. Also, it's impossible to comparison shop for juice if you don't know what is in the bottle. They would do well to be more upfront with their customers. Especially since it seems they have changed their ingredients. 

I also noticed that their recipe does not include K-meta at any time thru the process. I assume that's because -according to the label - they have added sulfur dioxide. But how much? They say to use Potassium Sorbate but not K-meta before bottling. They also say the the sweetness of the final wine is determined by the amount of sugar you add pre ferment. I'm pretty new to this, but do these things make sense to you guys?


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## Scooter68 (Sep 22, 2020)

I just looked over their directions and you are correct - They seem to be saying that the amount of sugar in the wine must "pre-ferment" will determine the sweetness after fermentation. Sad to see this sort of basic error. Also there is another issue with their statement that wine corks should be soaked in a sulfite solution for 2 hours before using - That is something I have never heard recommended on this board or anywhere. There are a few that suggest dipping in a k-meta solution for a few minutes but most folks nowadays prefer a quick dip (IF anything) or using right out of the bag if the bag was sealed. In any case that recommendation really is a bit troublesome as well. 

_All in all those instructions look like a kit wine set of instructions things they state like fact that simply do not connect with reality: 1) 4-8 weeks for fermentation 2) No reference to how much concentrate to add - just the mention of concentrate and 3 gallons of water, not even a mention of the yield of the recipe. 3) Suggestion of bottling as soon as the wine clears. It looks more like something from a YouTube video or a MotherEarth recipe and directions._

*Bottom line - I would totally ignore their directions. Look at some of the discussion by others who have used their concentrate or contact them for their recipe, diretions and be sure to ask them the type of wine they like as that will affect their recipe contents.*


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## hounddawg (Sep 22, 2020)

reeflections said:


> Final taste is most important to me, but I agree with Scooter that knowing the contents of any food product is important. Also, it's impossible to comparison shop for juice if you don't know what is in the bottle. They would do well to be more upfront with their customers. Especially since it seems they have changed their ingredients.
> 
> I also noticed that their recipe does not include K-meta at any time thru the process. I assume that's because -according to the label - they have added sulfur dioxide. But how much? They say to use Potassium Sorbate but not K-meta before bottling. They also say the the sweetness of the final wine is determined by the amount of sugar you add pre ferment. I'm pretty new to this, but do these things make sense to you guys?


yeah see they've changed everything, the last jugs i got had a piece of paper clear taped on that only said, sour cherry, or black raspberry, or blueberry, not like @Scooter68 got with a label, the old man has retired and now lives by @dralarms, no i quit drinking better than 30 years ago, but 5 of my doctors wanted me to drink red wine for my health, so i researched and went to crafting better then i could buy, plus i knew mine was all natural. if i cant find all natural and non-GMO then I'm going back to fresh fruit in my area,, 'the orchard i found , this weekend we'll go look for table scraps, but next year I'll be first in line, if nothing else this weekend i'll be stocking up on crabapples, this orchard is better than 50 years old, and 15 mile down a gravel road, and where it starts is 5 miles from a town of about 200 people, dogs and cats, combined,,,,
Dawg


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## crushday (Sep 22, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> 15 mile down a gravel road, and where it starts is 5 miles from a town of about 200 people, dogs and cats, combined


Envious...


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## David Violante (Sep 23, 2020)

@hounddawg I saw in another post about ordering carboys from HomeBrewOhio that they had pure concentrates. Do you have any experience with these?


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## hounddawg (Sep 23, 2020)

David Violante said:


> @hounddawg I saw in another post about ordering carboys from HomeBrewOhio that they had pure concentrates. Do you have any experience with these?


no, as soon as i found their bottles i never checked anything else, Thank You,
Ill take a better look.
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Sep 23, 2020)

David Violante said:


> www.packagingoptionsdirect.com[/URL]
> 
> is cheaper for carboys
> Dawg



www.packagingoptionsdirect.com
Dawg


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## David Violante (Sep 23, 2020)

I was looking for concentrates myself and came across this thread. Great information here thank you. It's amazing what is in, or omitted from "truth in labeling".


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## Scooter68 (Sep 23, 2020)

Sadly these days you really have to know how they can "weasel-word' labels hoping that you won't check the ingredients. Then there are those who seem to ignore common practices because there are no 'laws' that force them to do otherwise.

One more point (I'll try not to get too windy here) beverages sold for drinking straight out of the container are typically not full strength juices. Typically some degree of extra water, other juices and/or sugars are added. If you are making 'Country Fruit Wines" typically most folks make them stronger, for more of the fruit flavor, than is found in a grape wine. For that reason over the counter drinks like Ocean Spray drinks (Even the 100% Juice 'no sugar added') are not great sources for home wine makers. More than likely our better sources are those made specifically for wine bases, and those made for health food drinks - Concentrates. Typically I've found the latter to be good sources for wine bases especially when the label says "Add 1 oz to 7 /8 ozs of water per serving. THOSE are good true concentrates and the labels typically say something like "Ingredients: Montmorecy Cherries"


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## hounddawg (Sep 23, 2020)

ever heard of www.naturesflavors.com 8 oz concentrates, i emailed for more information, hope to hear back from them, and yes what @Scooter68 said about fruit wines is dead on, country wine vintners are a totally different breed of wine craftsmen, most of us don't strive to repeat a particular wine, we strive to keep our fruit flavor, we just add alcohol. you take say a peach straight from the tree, next years peach from that very tree is different than last years peach, naw, the good lord, great spirit or what ever you believe makes that fruit, why change it, it is already good, but to add alcohol and keep natures flavors, that's my attempted key,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Sep 23, 2020)

www.naturesflavors.com in the search box try fruit juice concentrates, they have gallon jugs and 5 gallon buckets, i sent a email for a breakdown of how much each concentrate will make, they want $158.00 per gallon of concentrate of elderberry, at that price i'd need 8 to 12 gallons of finished wine,
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 23, 2020)

They sound too much like a chemical laboratory than I care for. And at those prices....


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## hounddawg (Sep 23, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> They sound too much like a chemical laboratory than I care for. And at those prices....


yep; i was weary, everything else was all suited for processing production products, and on the concentrated juice there was no info, not in how many parts to water nor anything else, this sucks, we've just passed the prime harvest time, and any bushels or pecks of fruit will be foreign i fear, i got at least a couple three years of wine, I'm not a big drinker, but crafting a really good wine relaxes me,,, mind, body and soul,,, 
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 23, 2020)

Well you can also look at Fruit Products | Natural Fruits and vegetables | juices | Purees | powders - milnefruit.com A commercial supplier don't know if they'd even talk to a home wine maker nor do I know their prices but the products they describe look to be simple concentrates of fruits.


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## hounddawg (Sep 23, 2020)

I'll hang with from scratch,
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 27, 2020)

Here is another option I ran across.








Tart Cherry Juice Concentrate, pure fruit juice puree for Brewing and…


Coloma Frozen Foods provides premium bulk frozen fruits, vegetables, juice concentrates, Montmorency Tart Cherry Juice concentrate for brewers, vintners, repack, re-manufacturing, blending, and distribution services. Pints to 52 Gallons.



colomafrozen.com


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## reeflections (Oct 27, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Here is another option I ran across.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that. I just emailed them to see if we could get some ingredients to their concentrates.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 27, 2020)

For me - I grow my own blueberries and we have wild blackberries (In good years) so the concentrates I look for are Black Currant, Black Raspberry, and Tart Cherry. I have used Vintner's Harvest Black Currant concentrate and the Tart Cherry from this site Complete Natural Products: Complete Natural Products

It looks like it's getting tougher to find true 100% varietal concentrates. Buying non-concentrates means your wine is going to be limited in strength . Let's also let be realistic - most of those 100% varietal juices are in reality reconstituted from concentrates and watered down to some degree - Notice that most all state "from concentrate" meaning they added water and they don't say that they only added back natural amount of water.

I apologize if I seem to be harping on this topic but it does get old finding misleading ads and labels.


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## reeflections (Oct 28, 2020)

Got a return quickly to my email:

Subject: Apricot Concentrate

Hi, I'm wondering about your fruit concentrates. For example, is your apricot concentrate pure apricot, or is it blended with another juice like apple or grape? If it is blended, could you give me an ingredient list with the percentages of any other ingredients included?

Thanks!

Mike
==================


Mike:

Thank you for your inquiry.

All of our concentrate are 100% pure fruit concentrates, no additives, no preservatives, non-GMO. The only ingredient in all of the concentrates is the fruit itself. I hope that answers your question. If not please reach out to me for more information or other questions. We remain here to serve you.

Thank you.

Ed ‘Eddie’ Sill
Sales
Coloma Frozen Foods, Inc
Nature Blessed, LLC
269-876-5917

Work is for those who do not Fish


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 28, 2020)

I will give the blackberry a try to use to back sweeten my current Blackberry wine when I'm ready to bottle. I just ordered the Red Raspberry from the Brownwood Acres store since it is just a little cheaper since they include shipping. Their juice is 100% of the fruit too.
email from them.

Hi Harold,

Yes! All of our concentrates (RASPBERRY included) are 100% juice from the fruit, condensed down into concentrate. No additives, no fillers, nothing 

Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with. Thank you, and have a great day!


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## reeflections (Oct 28, 2020)

How's this for good product description?









Brewers and Vintners - fruit puree and concentrates up to 52 gallons,…


Brewers and Vintners - frozen IQF fruits, puree, and pure concentrates for beer and wine making. Available Quarts, 1.5 gallon, 3 gallon, 5 gallon, and 52 gallon drums.



colomafrozen.com


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## Scooter68 (Oct 28, 2020)

removed


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