# My 1st Go at Wine and RC 212



## FunkedOut (Apr 28, 2019)

Never made any wine before. 
I am planning my maiden voyage on a RJS Chilean Malbec with dried skins.
I love me some Malbec. Looking for a dry, fruity wine with some astringency.
Not sure why I chose to buy a pack of RC 212 but I did.

Bellow is my plan for this kit. I would greatly appreciate some feedback from you guys.
I'd hate to end up with 30 bottles of meh after dropping over $100 and the time.
Thanks in advance.


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## FunkedOut (Apr 28, 2019)

I generally keep my home between 69*F and 73*F when someone is home.
I let it climb to 77*F - 78*F when it's empty which is usually for a few hours at a time.
For the first few days of fermentation, I plan to keep the temps in the 69*F to 73*F window.

I was planning on placing the bag of juice in the fridge until it drops below 60*F.
Then pour it into the fermentor and wait until it rises to 60*F to inoculate the must with rehydrated and tempered RC 212.
(I have GoFerm and Fermaid K from my beer adventures)
I figure 6 gallons of 60*F must will take most of the night, if not the day to warm up to room temp.
That should give the yeast a nice slow start, seeing how fast wine ferments.

Sound like a good plan?


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## cmason1957 (Apr 28, 2019)

You are over complicating your life. Clean and sanitize your fermentation bucket and pour everything into it. No need to chill and then let warm up. I might suggest that for your first wine adventure follow the directions almost to a T. Learn the differences between wine making and beer making. Then branch out.

Main difference, due to lower pH and higher abv, most winemakers do open air fermentation, stirring daily. Then there is the patience factor. Practice it often.


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## FunkedOut (Apr 30, 2019)

So, you're saying there will be no noticeable difference in the wine if pitched colder?

I have found that for beer, managing the yeast makes the biggest difference in the final product.
That not the case for wine?


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## heatherd (Apr 30, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> So, you're saying there will be no noticeable difference in the wine if pitched colder?
> 
> I have found that for beer, managing the yeast makes the biggest difference in the final product.
> That not the case for wine?


Wine is less fussy in that regard. I'd suggest fermenting at your home's ambient temperature.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 30, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> So, you're saying there will be no noticeable difference in the wine if pitched colder?
> 
> I have found that for beer, managing the yeast makes the biggest difference in the final product.
> That not the case for wine?


Most wine yeasts have a very wide temperature profile, 60-85 F. I generally like to ferment wires at the lower end and let my reds get warmer. I don't own and have never seen the need for a "brew belt" to warm things up. I do all my ferments down in my basement, which never gets much above 68 F.


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## mocha (May 2, 2019)

I too am in the basement (see my thread in kit wine forums "help I'm being kicked out") I used to be in the office making wine at 72f now I'm in the basement which is around 58 to 68f. The fermentation in the primary takes longer, instead of 7 days now it's more like 9 to 12 days, but I'm told it holds the fruit flavors better. I bought a heating pad to increase the temp a little on really cold nights but it's working out well and I believe the cooler temps help the sediment drop out better. Dont chill anything just add the ingredients and follow the instructions, the hard part will be waiting, kits are great young but the reds like malbec should age at least a year before drinking and even better 2 to 4 yrs.


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## kevinlfifer (May 2, 2019)

My go to red yeast is rc212. My Amarone from this fall is already getting raided. Be patient, I would allow it to go dry in the bucket on the skins.


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## FunkedOut (May 2, 2019)

I’ve been reading about extended macerations as well. 
My primary ferentor will actually be an 8 gallon stainless kettle. The lid fit is not air tight and there are no provisions for an airlock. 
My plan was to rack to a 6 gallon glass carboy after the primary rage dies down and get an airlock on it. 
Wondering if I can stuff (and retrieve) the sack of skins into the secondary.


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## kevinlfifer (May 3, 2019)

Should be enough CO2 to protect it. I would not degas it but allow enough bulk aging time (6 months or so) for it to degas in the carboy. I finally got patient enough to do that, the results are a much better wine. I would not do that with the skins (SO2 issues). I have frozen the skins and used them in one of the cheapo kits, it helps.


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## FunkedOut (May 3, 2019)

I'm still reading up on sulfites (when and how much to add) so I'm not smart enough yet to understand your concern with the skins.

My plans were to use the kettle and rack to the carboy as the yeast rage dies down but before totally dry.
If I can manage to get the skins in and out of the carboy, I'd rack from the carboy to another after a few weeks, not months.

I was going to take a slightly patient approach to degassing, by using a vacu vin on the carboy with no agitation.
I'm thinking my first addition of sulfites happens after the degassing is over.
Then again in a many months just before bottling.


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## kevinlfifer (May 7, 2019)

Again, I would allow it to go to dry (.990 -.996) then rack to a carboy. Leave the skins out of the carboy. I just allowed 87 gal go to dry in 60 gal drums. I transferred to carboys @ .992 sg. I'll wait 3-4 days then add the Kmeta (1/2 tsp/carboy). There will be volcanoes. I add 1/8 tsp Kmeta every 3 months in carboy.


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## Bts (May 8, 2019)

I've only done EM twice, so take this with a grain of salt, but skins in the carboy was a raging PITA. Need to have a way more headspace than you think because the skins trap bubbles and expand, and the bubbles push wine up through the skins and out the airlock. You can have several inches of headspace when you put it in the carboy and the next morning the skins have risen/expanded and you've got an airlock, a pile of skins, and a bottle or three of wine on the floor. By contrast, EM in a bucket was a piece of cake. Close it up when fermentation slows so the CO2 blankets it, maybe give it the occasional shake to dampen the skins, and 6 weeks later it tasted fine when I racked it off the skins and sulfited.


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## FunkedOut (May 8, 2019)

I don’t have a bucket large enough for primary. 
My buckets are 6.5 gallons. 
I have an 8 gallon stainless kettle I was planning on using for primary. 

I guess I could rack to a bucket with an airlock for the EM. 
Then rack to a carboy after pulling out the skins. 

Do the skins eventually sink once CO2 production is over?
Or do they float forever?
I’m thinking of what would be less hassle. To bag the skins, or not to bag...


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## Bts (May 8, 2019)

They sink but it can take several weeks. In your place I'd (A) abandon EM, (B) buy the larger size fermentation bucket, or (C) use the bucket you have and split the batch if necessary to make most of it fit. You could start in the pot, then rack it just before it's finished fermenting. I kinda doubt it'll fit, but you can always rack some into a gallon in a jug, and top the bucket as high as you're comfortable, and keep half a gallon or a gallon in a separate airlocked jug/bottle, so you're like 90% EM. Or, slightly easier, mix the juice, put 1 gal in a jug, and the rest plus skins in the bucket so you don't have to rack till EM is done. Bagged skins is definitely easier.


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## cmason1957 (May 8, 2019)

What I have done, since I don't have a big mouth carboy type container either is do an extended cold soak of the skins prior to fermentation. I mix everything up in my 10 gallon food grade bucket, then into my basement refrigerator for a couple of weeks of cold soaking. It probably doesn't provide the same benefits as extended maceration, but I keep it cold enough (below 40F) that fermentation doesn't kick off. I have done this four times now and to great effect.


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## FunkedOut (May 8, 2019)

I got an idea to make due with what I have on hand.
I will start out in the kettle. 
Once the gravity hits 1.020, I'll give it one last stir and cover the kettle with some sanitized sheets of cling wrap, sagging down to the wine level, and the lid.
That should allow any pressure build up to inflate the cling wrap balloon and eventually bleed out, but keep O2 from working its way back in.
I'll then let the EM run its course undisturbed. Maybe 6 weeks total?
Then rack to a carboy with a dose of K-meta in it.

It's ideas like this one that make me wish I had one of those wireless gravity devices.
I want to record the gravity daily so bad.
I'll get over it.

Thanks again to everyone for the ideas and pointers.


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## HillPeople (May 9, 2019)

We use these quite a lot, Have 5 of them for various wines.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/rubbermaid-brute-container


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## kevinlfifer (May 9, 2019)

You will still need to punch down your cap or submerse your bag to avoid mold


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## FunkedOut (May 9, 2019)

Good point. I can place a stainless flat bar in the bag with the skins. It's heavy enough to sink dry hops, so I'd expect it to be enough for the skins.


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## kevinlfifer (May 9, 2019)

I would use a paint strainer bag or cheese cloth. The bags that wine supply stores sell are so fine a mesh that they will probably trap enough CO2 to float. The paint strainer bag should allow enough gas to escape to stay submerged.


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## sour_grapes (May 9, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> Never made any wine before.
> I am planning my maiden voyage on a RJS Chilean Malbec with dried skins.





FunkedOut said:


> I’ve been reading about extended macerations as well.





FunkedOut said:


> I got an idea to make due with what I have on hand.
> I will start out in the kettle.
> Once the gravity hits 1.020, I'll give it one last stir and cover the kettle with some sanitized sheets of cling wrap, sagging down to the wine level, and the lid.
> That should allow any pressure build up to inflate the cling wrap balloon and eventually bleed out, but keep O2 from working its way back in.
> I'll then let the EM run its course undisturbed. Maybe 6 weeks total?



May I have the temerity to suggest that you just follow a standard protocol for your first attempt? In my opinion, you are just as likely to screw up and oxidize your wine as you are to noticeably improve it. There are a lot of little things you learn on your first few attempts.


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## FunkedOut (May 9, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> May I have the temerity to suggest that you just follow a standard protocol for your first attempt? In my opinion, you are just as likely to screw up and oxidize your wine as you are to noticeably improve it. There are a lot of little things you learn on your first few attempts.


That is very fine advice, thank you, but I just can’t take it. 
I’m a tweaker. I help bread machines stir. 
Best I can do, is reduce the EM down to 3 weeks if I can’t get this kettle sealed up right. 

I’m made a gasket that fit along the top lip of the kettle out of a length of tubing. 
With the help of some binder clamps, this should be as good as a bucket, or better. 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/diy-stainless-steel-fermenters.490055/
I performed a dry run of the cling wrap idea and was not impressed. 

Not to worry, I will take some pics along the way and will be forthcoming with any screw ups for entertainment purposes.


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## Chuck E (May 9, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> What I have done, since I don't have a big mouth carboy type container either is do an extended cold soak of the skins prior to fermentation. I mix everything up in my 10 gallon food grade bucket, then into my basement refrigerator for a couple of weeks of cold soaking. It probably doesn't provide the same benefits as extended maceration, but I keep it cold enough (below 40F) that fermentation doesn't kick off. I have done this four times now and to great effect.



I do this too. I find it gives a deeper color to my reds.


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## FunkedOut (May 9, 2019)

I just got the kit in mail.
It came with 2 packs of grape skins; each 1.25kg.
That is a lot of skins. More than I expected.
I was thinking it was a few ounces. This is almost 3 quarts.
I will have to rethink my plans here. Not sure my bar is heavy enough.

It also came with a muslin bag that is plenty porous.


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## FunkedOut (May 10, 2019)

I have in my possession an insulated stainless mash tun that already has a silicone gasket on the lid to form an airtight seal.
This thing holds 10 gallons and has a port above the 9 gallons mark that I can use for an airlock (tube into some starsan).
The bottom has a 5 degree slope with a drain hole in the center that is piped to a ball valve.
Above the real bottom is a false bottom with a fine stainless mesh (~250 micron).

My thoughts for using this vessels are:
1) I can seal it off.
2) I can draw samples off the bottom.
3) I can just drain the primary rather than siphon the wine out.

My worry for this vessel is the insulation and heat of fermentation.
I worry that the fermentation could create enough heat to get the must up above 85*F.
The insulation on this vessel is fantastic. It can hold 7-8 gallons of mash at 155*F in a 60*F room for over an hour without dropping 1*F.
Anyone out there tried an insulated fermenter?


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## FunkedOut (May 10, 2019)

Another option I have would seem to be most obvious now that I think about it.
I have a couple of 10 gallon corny kegs that I use as fermenters for beer.
Plenty of headspace for primary, they seal up real tight, I can slosh them around to my heart’s content, I can get an airlock on them, I can open them up and stir/add stuff and real easy to draw a sample with a bottle of CO2 and a party tap.

Rather then stir them daily, I can pick them up and shake them vigorously.
I’ve set them up so that the dip tube leaves behind 1/2 gallon. 
That may work out well for this effort?
I still have my autosiphon.


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## Johnd (May 11, 2019)

Your best bet here is to slow down and make wine by the book, there is a lot to learn about the process, and throwing untested / unproven equipment into the mix, plus using advanced techniques and a fussy yeast prone to H2S, all on your first attempt, seems to me to be quite overzealous.

I’m not saying you’ll fail, but the odds of making improvements are slim when you can’t execute the basics nearly flawlessly. The odds of that level of execution on your first go-round are slim.

I can see from past posts that you’ll likely not heed this advice, and that’s your right, please just consider the option.


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## FunkedOut (May 11, 2019)

Actually, I am heavily considering it now.
I get the impression from my reading that this EM will result in a wine that requires more aging (at least a year or two) to mature and be drinkable. 
I’m sure I’ll be impatient and want to sample some early on. 
After all, this is an initial trial to see if making a kit wine will produce something I’ll enjoy drinking. 
Following the instructions will get this into my glass the quickest, no?

It seems the deviations from the kit instructions that are advisable are to skip the sorbate and bulk age for another few months rather than bottle at 6-8 weeks. 
I’ll have to add Sulfites to the kit every 3 months, but I think I’ve got that figured out. 

I’m currently on a consumption rate of a kit a year. 
Next year, I may revisit the keg fermenter. 
It really makes life easy for beers.


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## FunkedOut (May 14, 2019)

I'm about ready to start this kit. After this weekend, I will be home long enough to see fermentation through.
I have waived off the extended maceration and cold soak for this kit.
I have decided to follow the instructions... almost.

Only a few small changes planned.
1) Yeast: Instead of sprinkling EC1118 dry on top of the must, I will rehydrate RC212 with GoFerm Protect and use Fermaid K at the end of the lag phase and at 1/3 sugar depletion.
2) Sorbate: I will not be adding any.
3) Bulk aging: In glass carboy.

Now, for my last trick, is oak. The kit comes with a couple ounces (60g) of medium toast oak chips for use in primary. I often read that these kits are under-oaked.
I have in my possession a ~2oz bag of EnoCubes. They are a blend of American and French oak cubes that are dark kilned. They are labeled as red aging.
I have a couple questions regarding the possible addition of these cubes.
Do you think this will make the wine better? Couldn't possibly ruin it?
Where should I used them? Primary? Secondary? In the first 3 month bulk age?

These cubes are left over from an experiment with an oaked beer.
That experiment was a total success. I proved to myself that I do not like any oaked beer!

Thanks with your patience with me this far.


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## Johnd (May 14, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> I'm about ready to start this kit. After this weekend, I will be home long enough to see fermentation through.
> I have waived off the extended maceration and cold soak for this kit.
> I have decided to follow the instructions... almost.
> 
> ...



The oak chips in the primary are mostly for sacrificial tannins, which will help the color to bind and keep your red wine red, little, if any, oak flavor is derived from the oak chips in primary.

In my opinion, the best option for oaking, since you intend to bulk age, is to wait until you have finished the racking after the clearing stage before adding any oak. At that time, you'll have most of the sediment out of the picture, and your wine will be developing its taste profile. The better of the carboy products are the oak spirals and Wine Stix. My personal preference are French Oak Wine Stix, medium plus toast, YMMV.


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## cmason1957 (May 14, 2019)

More oak or not is truly a personal choice. Do you like wine that have more oak characteristics or not? I am a fan and 2 Oz would not be nearly enough for me. For you, it might be just fine, might be too much. And I'm with John, I like larger types of oak over smaller.


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## FunkedOut (May 14, 2019)

Yes, oak is good. The more the better. I’ve never had a wine I thought was too oakey, if that’s a word. 
I just didn’t want this to be the first. 
I think I’ll add them after the clearing, as Johnd wrote. 
I have them already and they’ll give me a data point to build on. 

Is 3 months too long to leave them in?
I’m guessing it’s a soak to taste game, but not sure if something bad happen if left too long.


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## Johnd (May 15, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> Yes, oak is good. The more the better. I’ve never had a wine I thought was too oakey, if that’s a word.
> I just didn’t want this to be the first.
> I think I’ll add them after the clearing, as Johnd wrote.
> I have them already and they’ll give me a data point to build on.
> ...



You can over-oak wine, it can be made to taste like plywood. A little too much tends to lay back during bottle aging, but you can overdo it, especially with the dark roast stuff.


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## FunkedOut (May 17, 2019)

I couldn't resist the urge to start monkeying around and decided to perform a pre-process that I am hesitant to call a cold soak.
I chilled the crushed grape skin packs and some spring water in the fridge overnight.
I sanitized a couple of 1/2 gallon mason jars and emptied each grape pack into its own jar.
I then used a quart of chilled spring water to rinse the bags and put the rinse water into the jars.
I sealed up the jars real good and gave them a shake. Back in the fridge they went.
They are both full to brim with the mixture.

I had read some post indicating that the sugar from the grape packs took a while to dissolve in the juice so the starting gravity readings were low.
Waiting a few hours, stirring, squeezing would raise the gravity readings before adding the yeast.
None of that sounded like a good time. All of it sounded like a better chance of infection than what I just did.

The consensus seems to be to estimate a 0.020 boost in gravity from the crushed skins and goo.
Some quick math shows that diluting each grape pack with 1/2 gallon of water would result in a mixture with a gravity of 1.110, the high end of the wine kit's expected gravity.
Diluting with the 1/4 gallon that I did, results in a mixture with a gravity of ~1.160.
I needed to save my remaining 3/4 gallon of water planned for this kit to rinse the juice bag and dissolve the bentonite.

I figure this process helps extract some of the sugars from the crushed skins, yielding a higher gravity reading.
It may have a small effect towards the goals of a cold soak? Maybe...
And two jars in the fridge is easier to swing than an 8 gallon fermenter.



As an aside, I'm really surprised the instructions direct the wine maker to rinse the juice bag, but not the grape skins bags.
There was a lot of skins and seeds and good left in the bags before rinsing. I rinsed each several times.


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## FunkedOut (May 20, 2019)

Well, I got to perform all the monkeying around I could come up with last night. 
I chilled the bag of juice, and when mixed with bentonite slurry and the grape skins, must was right at 64*F. 
I ended up pouring the skins and the oak chips into the sock and tied it off. 

Following the instructions of the kit (as far as water additions are concerned), I ended up with 6.5 gallons in the fermenter. They asked for topping up to 6 gallons before adding the grape skins.
At any rate, I had 6.5 gallons of 1.108 must at 64*F and pitched 8g of rehydrated RC212.
The yeast was rehydrated with GoFerm, tempered and then pitched. 

12 hours later, the gravity and temperature have climbed a bit to 1.110 and 67*F. 
The skin/chip sock has finally risen to the surface, barely. 
I just stirred it and some small islands of must-colored stuff released a bunch of bubbles as I stirred them in. 

Seems things are going well. 
How active do I want the fermentation to be before I add the first half dose of Fermaid K?
I plan to add the second half dose at 1.070 SG.


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## FunkedOut (May 20, 2019)

This was noon today after stirring:


This is now (5 hours later):


That’s the “must-colored stuff” I was talking about that released bubbles when I stirred earlier.
Is that yeast? Or other stuff suspended on CO2?

Is this stuff indication that the lag phase is over and I should add the Fermaid K?
Or should I wait for another sign?


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## cmason1957 (May 20, 2019)

I would add the Fermaid K now. You got fermentation going on.


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## FunkedOut (May 20, 2019)

That's good news! I can confirm that fermentation has started. I just measured 1.109 SG. 
Looks like 1.110 was the peak. I'll use that number for my estimated ABV.
I added the Fermaid K just now and stirred things well.
Must is at 70*F now.

It's finally time to ride it out.
Thanks everyone, for all your help.
I managed to make the simple as complicated as possible.
I'm all about involvement.

Here's to my first wine. Hope its a good one.


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## David W Huey (May 21, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Your best bet here is to slow down and make wine by the book, there is a lot to learn about the process, and throwing untested / unproven equipment into the mix, plus using advanced techniques and a fussy yeast prone to H2S, all on your first attempt, seems to me to be quite overzealous.
> 
> I’m not saying you’ll fail, but the odds of making improvements are slim when you can’t execute the basics nearly flawlessly. The odds of that level of execution on your first go-round are slim.
> 
> I can see from past posts that you’ll likely not heed this advice, and that’s your right, please just consider the option.


It's learning curve thing big lesson I learned is follow the recipe man! I consider myself a smart person! The wine and time is in control! Your biggest attribute will help if taste wine during stages! The confidence you have will play out more in your finish product I just finished my first but you spend more time fixing your mistakes rushing the process it being ur first you would probably have heart attack and stroke not touch your Chilean 4 6weeks! Welcome 2 the form its a lot help here just don't be scared to ask! Specially when see yours peers are capable of answering your question!Blessing


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## FunkedOut (May 24, 2019)

Tonight marks the end of day 4 of primary fermentation.
I added the second half dose of Fermaid K just ahead of the 1/3 sugar break, at the end of day 3.

Kit instructions say to allow 6-8 days before proceeding to step 2: secondary fermentation (rack to a carboy with airlock).
Step 2 says to rack to carboy when SG reaches 1.020 or lower.
The way things are trending, the SG should hit 1.020 by the end of day 5.


_* the entire timeline on this graph is 7 days_

I'm thinking the right thing to do is ignore the calendar and listen to the hydrometer.
Am I thinking clear thoughts?

How low (SG) can I leave it in the primary and not risk oxidizing the wine?
Should I leave it in the primary for 6 days, and rack it dry?
Or rack it as soon as it hits 1.020 or some other magic number?


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## G259 (May 24, 2019)

Don't get too hung up on the EXACT time to move to secondary. If you can, a good time is 1.020-1.010, but I have had a couple ferment dry in the bucket (.990), and they turned out fine.

The question I ask myself is: 'Does the wine have a blanket of CO2 covering it?' If the answer is 'maybe', then I'm worried.


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## Johnd (May 24, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> I'm thinking the right thing to do is ignore the calendar and listen to the hydrometer.
> Am I thinking clear thoughts?
> 
> How low (SG) can I leave it in the primary and not risk oxidizing the wine?
> ...



You’re on track, let the hydrometer / SG be your guide at this stage, not time. 

If you have active fermentation, your wine is fine to stay in it’s primary vessel, as it nears completion, we move it to a vessel where we can control air exposure as well as get rid of some of the heavier lees that have begun to settle out. Exactly when is your call, though the closer to “done” you are, the lower the chances of overflows / airlock foaming / volcanoes is. Some folks completely finish AF in primary, others rack at 1020, 1010, 1000, you get to choose.


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## mainshipfred (May 24, 2019)

What I normally do is keep the lid loose until it gets to around 1.010 or below. Then I snap the lid and put in the air lock to make sure I have a CO2 blanket. I then let it go to dry or almost dry.


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## FunkedOut (May 24, 2019)

Fermentation was very tame. It would’ve been fine in a 7 gallon pot. 
The only pucker moment came when I added the Fermaid K. 
That’s a great way to degas!


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## FunkedOut (May 28, 2019)

On day 6, 1.020, and I racked into a 6 gallon carboy.
It's now day 9, still at 1.010. If the trend continues, this will probably be dry a week from now.
There currently sits 3/4" of fine lees on the bottom. Should this concern me at all?

I've read where it's recommended to rack off of the fine lees once they build up to 1/2".
Are these lees going to funk my wine in the next week?

My heart says to just wait until it's dry before racking again.
But I really don't know.

Does the height of the lees matter for a week or two?


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## mainshipfred (May 29, 2019)

You should be fine to let it go, infact you may want to stir it daily to stir up the lees. You probably don't have 3/4" anyway. The lees get attached to the glass and there is probably only the appearance of 3/4" around the base.


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## FunkedOut (Jun 6, 2019)

I have not done a thing to the wine, no stirring up the lees, no racking.
Here we are on day 18 since pitch, SG reads 1.001.
I can still see a steady stream of tiny bubbles working their way up to the surface. Airlock still gluggs a few time a minute.
But it is almost 3 weeks into fermentation. That 50% longer than everyone else.
I'm not worried. Should I be?
Should I consider stirring up the lees? Or just practice patience?


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## Chuck E (Jun 7, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> I have not done a thing to the wine, no stirring up the lees, no racking.
> Here we are on day 18 since pitch, SG reads 1.001.
> I can still see a steady stream of tiny bubbles working their way up to the surface. Airlock still gluggs a few time a minute.
> But it is almost 3 weeks into fermentation. That 50% longer than everyone else.
> ...



I usually stir my fermentations twice a day, but I also usually have a "cap" of skins to deal with. That said, your ferment is working its way down to dry; so I would say not to worry.


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## FunkedOut (Jun 15, 2019)

I still have not done a thing to the wine, and it's bubbling away. Bubbling has slowed down a fair amount. SG is down to 0.997.
Tomorrow marks day 28 since pitched.

Either RC212 is way slower than EC1118, or I racked into the carboy too early. 
At least there was a happy ending.


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## FunkedOut (Jun 24, 2019)

I’ve had my struggles with keeping the stoppers in the carboy. 
Ended up being, making sure they were dry and the carboy was dry was the answer....

...until I topped up and left 1” of headspace after degassing. 

I had a stopper that I adapted a VacuVin that worked great. 
After a week of that, I replaced the stopper with a solid stopper. 
The 6.5 gallon carboy kept spitting the stopper out. 
Both the universal kind and the rubber #7.

I’m guessing it’s the limited headspace being compressed by inserting the stopper created too high a pressure and that’s what is pushing the stopper out. 

Anyway, this is what I’ve resorted to as even some tape was no match for the carboy.


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## Johnd (Jun 24, 2019)

I doubt that your wine is degassed in one week with a vacuvin, which is probably why it’s spitting your stopper. A stopper with an airlock or waterless vented bung is a good option for several more months. When my wine is in carboys, there’s never a solid stopper in place, only my barrels have solids.


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## FunkedOut (Jun 24, 2019)

sounds like i just made a messy bomb then...


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## Johnd (Jun 24, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> sounds like i just made a messy bomb then...



Kinda what I’m thinking. Be careful not to put your face over the bung when you cut those zip ties loose!!


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## FunkedOut (Jun 24, 2019)

It already had a good amount of desire to get the bung out!
Thanks for the heads up and reading/posting so quickly, before my wine was all over my floor.

There's a 3-piece airlock on it now. I got tired of the vacuvin treatment.


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## Chuck E (Jun 25, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> It already had a good amount of desire to get the bung out!
> Thanks for the heads up and reading/posting so quickly, before my wine was all over my floor.
> 
> There's a 3-piece airlock on it now. I got tired of the vacuvin treatment.



I use these: https://morewinemaking.com/products/silicone-stopper-breathable-carboy.html


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## FunkedOut (Jul 13, 2019)

I grabbed one of those on a recent order. I plan to put it to use after I transfer from the 'clearing' carboy to the 'aging' carboy next week.

I left for the weekend and set the HVAC to 80*F since the house would be empty.
That 1" - 1.5" of headspace I left on this batch disappeared when the wine heated up!
I came home to find the airlock full of wine. Not a drop had spilled though.
I guess during that time, it's as if no airlock was present, since the wine level rose far enough to join the starsan in the airlock.
I basically had a small surface area of the wine exposed to air for a couple days.
Not worried about it. I will consider that my micro-oxygenation. 

At any rate, after cleaning and recharging the airlock with fresh starsan, I decided to remove some wine to create a bit more headspace.
It is still what I call a bit boozy. The strong alcoholic taste is overpowering the rest of the notes.
If this game is anything like beer, that taste should mellow and go away after a few months to a year.
Anytime I make ~10% beer, it's got this taste that goes away after 6 months to a year.

Looking past that bit, the smell, the taste and the finish on this kit is fantastic! It's essence of Malbec.
Any Malbec fans should definitely give this kit a go.
I do not plan to add any oak whatsoever. Maybe I will regret that after the booze mellows out a bit.
But applying my beer experience with this tasting, I say let it ride.

Thanks for everyone's help on this maiden voyage.
I am really happy with this outcome and definitely hooked.
My second kit is on order, but that's another thread...


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## FunkedOut (Jul 21, 2019)

Just racked to a carboy for aging.
I got a little schmutz when racking but it's very minimal. It will stay behind on the next racking.
Still feel like no more oak is the right choice; going with that.

I put one of those breather silicone bungs that @Chuck E posted. It's holding position well. I can only assume its working right.

Measured a pH of 3.27 today. Seems a bit low from what reading I've done. Tastes fine.
Anyone else measure kit wines and find this low a pH in the finished wine?

(I calibrated the MW102 just before measuring. This instrument has been super reliable and stability test on it proves it is still trustworthy.)


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## Johnd (Jul 22, 2019)

That pH is low for a Malbec, since this is a kit, and presumably manufactured to produce the best tasting wine, and tastes fine to you, no sense messing with it.


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## FunkedOut (Aug 31, 2019)

Update on the progress of this, my first wine kit.
I racked it (and added sulfite) today after the first 3 months of bulk aging.
I pulled some out prior to the racking to taste along side some store bought malbec that I enjoy and have been using to top up.

I can say that the boozeyness had mellowed out quite a bit and it's now out of the way to taste the rest of the wine.
Here's what I get from it: water, sour and the booze on the back end.
Granted it is wine, but when I taste the store bought wine, it tastes like in-your-face grapes, rounder and sweeter, with way more mouth feel and astringency at the end (which I enjoy).

Is what I am tasting here typical of a young wine?
Will this get better with age?
Or should I take action?

I was placing an online order to I added tannin complex and tannin riche to the cart.
I'll have those soon on hand, as well as some oak cubes that I can play with.


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## Chuck E (Sep 2, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> Update on the progress of this, my first wine kit.
> 
> I can say that the boozeyness had mellowed out quite a bit and it's now out of the way to taste the rest of the wine.
> Here's what I get from it: water, sour and the booze on the back end.
> ...



I think you might try "bench testing" your wine. What do you object to the most? Figure that out and work to alleviate that single issue. 

Let's say it's the "sourness." You might try sweetening the wine with some simple sugar syrup (2 parts sugar/1 part water, simmered & cooled). Set up three or four glasses with 1 ounce of your wine. Put measured amounts of the syrup in the glasses, stir & taste. You can start out with a dropper, and do 2 drops in the first glass, 4 drops in the second glass and so forth. Sometimes a little sweetness can bring back the grape flavor. You just don't want to overdo it. 

More astringency can be had with tannin additions. Again, don't overdo it. 

I gain mouthfeel with the addition of glycerin, which also helps with the apparent sweetness. In my view, a little bit goes a long way. 

Oak is a style choice. I oak some and leave it out of others. If you read the winemaker's notes on the commercial Malbec you like, you may find out if they used oak barrels or not. Use this knowledge to tailor your batch.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 2, 2019)

Thank you, sir. 
I’ve got some glycerin on the way to play with as well. 

The sourness is not bad. The issue is that it seems to be all that is there until the alcohol taste.
I think that I’ll start with a little glycerin to increase the mouthfeel. 
Maybe the added sweetness is all that is needed to bring the fruit back?
Do I need to stabilize with K-sorbate if all I am going to add is glycerin?

Bench trials sound like great fun!


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## Chuck E (Sep 2, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> Thank you, sir.
> I’ve got some glycerin on the way to play with as well.
> 
> The sourness is not bad. The issue is that it seems to be all that is there until the alcohol taste.
> ...



One thing I have found with the alcohol taste is, if you let the wine breathe it mitigates the booziness. Like, let it breathe for an hour or more. 
If you are going to age in the carboy for a few months, I would wait on the sorbate until you are near bottling time. 
After my bench trials, I landed on two drops of glycerin per ounce. Which I equate to 30 drops per mL, about 8mL per gallon. Don't overdo it. 
Since our brains equate fruitiness with sweet; in my taste buds, a little residual sweetness brings out the fruit for me.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 3, 2019)

I’ll be skipping the sorbate all together. 
Some quick research led to the fact that yeast cannot metabolize glycerin.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 4, 2019)

Found this great document discussing glycerol production by yeast:
https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-co...-Expert-120321-WE-Glycerol-and-WInemaking.pdf

Seems my yeast selection (RC212) is a one of the lowest producers of glycerol.
EC1118 that came with the kit, is a fairly high producer.
Also says that bumping up fermentation temps will increase glycerol production, everything else held constant.

Per the chart in that document, EC1118 would’ve produced almost 8g/L of glycerol, while the RC212 only produced ~6.5g/L, leaving the wine between 2g/L and 2.5g/L short.
I’ll be sure to taste that much addition on the bench trials.

That works out to 1.2oz - 1.5oz of glycerin added to the 6 gallon kit.
(or 0.20oz - 0.25oz per gallon)
(or ~1.5tsp per gallon)
On the very low end of the recommended ranges.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 5, 2019)

Super Smoother is a product that contains 15mL of liquid oak and 15mL of glycerin.
15mL is 3 tsp.
That is intended for all 6 gallons.
That is half of what I calculated above.

Just want to ask the brain trust here again,
Is thin and watery a normal experience in a young wine?
Is it something that will change with age?


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## Chuck E (Sep 5, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> Super Smoother is a product that contains 15mL of liquid oak and 15mL of glycerin.
> 15mL is 3 tsp.
> 
> Just want to ask the brain trust here again,
> ...



As I recall, you started out with grape juice & skins and you had to dilute it to get your SG in range. That is what contributed to your result now. 
Mouth feel really comes from the grape skins. When you ferment crushed red grapes the skins give up a lot of what makes wine great during the pressing operation. When you crush & press white grapes you get those "mouth feel" compounds right at the beginning. 
What you start out with makes a big difference in what you end up with. The flavors will meld with age. The body, not so much.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 5, 2019)

This is a wine kit that came with skins.
The water I added was exactly the amount directed by the instructions.
My only deviations from the kit instructions are:

RC212 in place of EC1118
Skipped the K-sorbate
Bulk aging instead of bottling right away
I did rack off the skins after only 5 days, because the SG was down to 1.024 and only a 2 hours away from 1.020.
Kit instructions said to rack off at 1.020.
Perhaps some longer contact with the skins would've been better.
I bought a fermonster for my second kit and executing an 8 week extended maceration.
I am hoping for better results there.

Thanks for the dialog and insight.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 10, 2019)

A gallon of glycerin came in the mail today.
I made up 4 samples to taste for a bench trial:

Nothing added
0.5oz per gallon
1.0oz per gallon
1.5oz per gallon
The sample with nothing added, taste experience was (over the course of a few seconds) water-nothing-sour-astringent. The booze is gone. The astringency is very pleasant, although more would be good. The water-nothing-sour portion is not enjoyable.

None of the other samples had that quality. They all came out of the gate with fruit! They all ended with the same astringency. 
The difference between the three was in the middle of the taste experience. 
The 0.5oz per gallon sample was a touch sour. 
The 1.5oz per gallon sample was a touch sweet. 
The 1.0oz per gallon sample was Goldilocks, just right. 
Quite an improvement.

I mixed up a 6oz sample with this dosing rate to confirm and enjoyed every bit of it. 
Added 6oz to the carboy and spun it up with the degassing tool to get it mixed up well. 

Thank you guys once again for helping me enjoy this process and end up with an enjoyable wine!

I might try some bench trials with a bit of tannin powder next. 
Either way, this one will sit in the carboy at least another 3 months.


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## Chuck E (Sep 11, 2019)

FunkedOut said:


> A gallon of glycerin came in the mail today.
> 
> Thank you guys once again for helping me enjoy this process and end up with an enjoyable wine!
> 
> ...



Happy to assist you.


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## FunkedOut (Sep 12, 2019)

Another round of bench trials tonight. This time tannin complex was the variable.
Decided that 15g/hL was the right move.

This kit is already _way_ better than that store bought Malbec that I was enjoying!
I'll be curious to see what 3 months does to it now that the tannin has been added and stirred up.


I'll add this bit here...
I tasted a touch of tannin complex dry, all by itself.
Did the same with tannin riche extra.
The complex is like sawdust and bitter chocolate powder.
The riche extra is like sawdust, oak and vanilla; almost sweet.
I might add some of the riche extra in 3 months after racking.

So far, bench trials is the best part of making wine!
Can't wait until I get to the drinking part!!


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## FunkedOut (Jan 12, 2020)

I found that the 3 months of rest after adding the tannin complex really made it soften up and almost disappear.
I will be more heavy handed with its use in the future.

I was going to add some tannin riche extra and bottle in a few weeks, but with bench trials, I found that the amount I was adding was beyond the recommended range.
I decided to add the recommended bottling amount for both the riche extra and the recommended bottling amount for complex.
6 weeks later (as recommended), I racked to a fresh carboy with sulfite and bottled my first batch!

I managed to get a touch over 31 bottles. I guess my carboys are a bit large.
Only 28 bottles and 4 half bottles got corks.
I enjoyed the rest last night and it was pretty good.
I'm hoping a few months in the bottle makes it great!
The batch is 8 months old today.

I would've been completely disappointed with the wine had I simply followed the instructions and bottled, drank on the recommended schedule.
Thank you all for fast forwarding my success on this hobby!


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