# grape variety question



## M1wino (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm looking for suggestions for grape varieties. A friend and I have a small vineyard currently growing Marquette, Cayuga and Niagara. We are in west michigan and are looking to expand our varieties and also someday offer grapes and juice for sale. What we are wondering is what varieties would people like available? We have ideas and a couple of different sites that offer a lot of possibilities but would love suggestions on what other winemakers might be looking for. Thanks


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## GreginND (Sep 27, 2013)

I was just through the Michigan wine regions in June. I'm jealous, actually, that you can grow vinifera!. Anyway, I would suggest you take a drive down near Baroda and visit with the wineries around there. See what they are growing and what they need. I know that Cabernet Franc does really well in SW Michigan. You may also think about looking at Petite Pearl - it's the newest cold hardy red grape and I think it is better than Marquette.


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## M1wino (Sep 27, 2013)

GreginND said:


> I was just through the Michigan wine regions in June. I'm jealous, actually, that you can grow vinifera!. Anyway, I would suggest you take a drive down near Baroda and visit with the wineries around there. See what they are growing and what they need. I know that Cabernet Franc does really well in SW Michigan. You may also think about looking at Petite Pearl - it's the newest cold hardy red grape and I think it is better than Marquette.


 
Greginnd
Love the wineries down in that area did you have a chance to go to any up north in the traverse city area? Cab franc is on my short list along with Riesling I'm about 30 miles from lake Michigan which is on the edge of the positive effects of "lake effect" 
We are trying to put a lot of thought into the rest of our current space about 600+ vines total with the idea that whatever we don't make wines out of perhaps others would be interested in


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## GreginND (Sep 27, 2013)

Yes I spent two days up there - one day on old mission pennisula and one day in leelanau. They are doing a fantastic job and the wineries are absolutely gorgeous. Wines are not cheap, though. I was doing research for my winery so I got to visit with owners, winemakers, managers, etc. Very good trip. 

By the way, I grew up in Plainwell and am proud of my MI roots. My father is a yooper from Calumet. I'll be back in town for a few days right after Christmas. 

Definitely make sure you plant grapes that will survive your climate. I know mostly the cold hardy hybrids here - for whites I would suggest La Crescent and Brianna. Both are very interesting and delicious. I think you should have no problems growing Leon Millot. It's a nice grape. Grapeman's winery, Hid in Pines, in NY makes a great Leon Millot wine.


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## grapeman (Sep 28, 2013)

Funny you should mention Leon Millot- that is what we are picking today. We are getting a lug per vine average (about 35 pounds).

How many of you guys have actual experience with Petite Pearl yet? I have 50 vines of it I got over 3 years ago. They were so small I put them in a nursery to grow more that year. They are still there and may be large enough to move now. They are the slowest growing grapes I have ever seen. I left some clusters on this year to see how the grapes were. I must say I am VERY dissapointed in them The clusters look smaller and much tighter than the wild Riparia, averaging about 2.5 inches in size. To me the grapes lack in flavor although there is a bit of tannins in the skin. I may plant the vines out next year, but I am not holding my breath on that variety.


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## GreginND (Sep 28, 2013)

My petite pearl vines planted in May are growing well but are definitely smaller than the other varieties I put in this year. The clusters are tight but I think they do get bigger than what you have. My friend down the road will be harvesting his second crop this year. I don't know how it's going this year but I'll try to find out. Here is a picture of some of his PP grapes from last season:







I believe he has made the first commercial petite pearl wine in the country - a very small amount. I found it to be much more complex than marquette with good tannin structure. So far I am excited by what I have experienced but I haven't had my hands on the grapes yet to make my own wine.


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## grapeman (Sep 28, 2013)

The vines I got were the small ones in the white paper packs and it was 95 and dry when they got to be in the middle of July so I planted them in my nursery where they got extra care. I was supposed to get bareroot vines and the source says he will try to get me some bigger vines this coming year. All I know is they have tiny clusters even compared to Leon Millot which can be small when heavily cropped. Greg hjow would you rate the wine from PP compared to Mn 1200 which is much more complex than Marquette? I wish they would release that one. People who try both generally choose the Mn1200 being much more complex. I just had another review this week from a local wine guru who rated it as the best hybrid wine he has ever had (and he isn't the first one to say that).


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## GreginND (Sep 29, 2013)

Well it is somewhat subjective because we don't have enough experience yet with petite pearl. I think mn1200 is more complex but less balanced. I love mn1200 and wish it would be released. I think the earthiness of it is a bit on the dominant side. Petite pearl has less of that. MN1200 would be outstanding to blend with other grapes. Eventually I want to experiment blending it with Marquette. Are you growing it? Have you tried blending?


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## grapeman (Sep 29, 2013)

Greg I have probably one of the biggest authorized plantings of Mn1200 since I got permission to include it in my training system trial. The earthiness tames down at the two year mark and becomes smoother, yet retains the complexity. I also believe it will blend well and in fact had some a month ago blended with Marquette. It was really good also. We need to get after Peter Hemstad and the rest of U Minn to release it. Eric Ambers of Grafted Grapevine also has some and has made some great wine with it. I used to think it lacked vigor, but in the trial it goes all out. It does benefit from good canopy management and thinning.


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## GreginND (Sep 29, 2013)

I'll certainly do my part to put pressure for it to be released. I'm in love with it. I know NDSU is using it in their cross breeding, hence, they have it growing in their test vineyards. I'll be getting 80 pounds or so from them in the next couple weeks. My 3 gallon batch from last year is in the bottle resting. I never did put it through MLF which I think would be better. The acid is a bit high. But it is tasty. Can't wait to try it over the next few years and see how it ages.

Have you tried MN1200 on your mod-GDC?

Regarding Petite Pearl, because it is slow growing and is not as vigorous, I think a 2-cordon high wire system would be better than your mod-GDC. Thoughts?


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## grapeman (Sep 29, 2013)

GreginND said:


> I'll certainly do my part to put pressure for it to be released. I'm in love with it. I know NDSU is using it in their cross breeding, hence, they have it growing in their test vineyards. I'll be getting 80 pounds or so from them in the next couple weeks. My 3 gallon batch from last year is in the bottle resting. I never did put it through MLF which I think would be better. The acid is a bit high. But it is tasty. Can't wait to try it over the next few years and see how it ages.
> 
> Have you tried MN1200 on your mod-GDC?
> 
> Regarding Petite Pearl, because it is slow growing and is not as vigorous, I think a 2-cordon high wire system would be better than your mod-GDC. Thoughts?


 
Yes the Mn1200 is on the Mod GDC, High Wire, VSP and Scott Henry. The nicest clusters come off the High Wire (TWC). The Mod GDC has about the same yield, but the TWC has bigger clusters and a touch higher brix. As a sidenote the Mn1200 got lower in acid last year- a good year- than most hybrids and averaged about 8 g/L TA.

Your assumption about the Petite Pearl on High Wire is a good reason we need training system trials. The universities give us great new varieties and then they guess which systems it will do better on. I would like to see as part of the release, some valid training system trial reports. I tried to get such a trial put in on the Cornell Baker Farm a few years ago and came close to securing funding, but in the end it didn't materialize.


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## Pat57 (Sep 30, 2013)

I was wondering the same thing about Petite Pearl. I got 6 bare root PP vines from Dell Schott this spring and they are no higher now than my Marquette, Zweigelt , Leon Millot, Frontenac, M. Foch and Sabrevios that I grew from hardwood cuttings. Those vines are all about 4' high now and pretty much done growing. I would have thought the rooted PP vines would have grown much better. 

In addition, I bought some Landot Noir, Cab Franc, Ives, Chancellor, and Regent from Double A and they are 7-10' high now. 

All vines are growing in sandy soil and had the same watering and fertilizer. I wonder if the PP vines would do better if grafted onto a rootstock?

Pat


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