# Aging: Bulk vs bottle



## gamble (Jul 15, 2016)

aging good,check; Question: What is the chemistry/science between bulk aging in carboy vs aging wine in bottle? any difference?


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## bkisel (Jul 16, 2016)

Just guessing... but you'd be getting more O2 exposure to wine aging in a bottle, using corks, than you'd be getting bulk aging in an air-locked carboy.


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## NorCal (Jul 16, 2016)

Hmmm, I would suspect the other way around (higher O2 exposure I n a carboy than bottle) but I've never tested it. I would suspect that an airlock is not as impervious to oxygen as a cork.

When I tested the free SO2, the rate of SO2 consumption in a barrel was 4X what it was in a glass carboy and a Flex tank was half way in between. I've never measured a bottle. The SO2 consumption in the carboy wasn't insignificant; something that can't be ignored, while in the bottle it is forgotten about.


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## terrymck (Jul 16, 2016)

Tim Vandergrift does not recommend bulk aging in carboys. He says get it to drop clear (3 months, maybe for reds) and bottle. He claims that O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork. One thing to say for bulk aging is that it is less likely to get consumed. In a bottle it takes discipline! Or plenty of bottles that are ready.


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## Floandgary (Jul 16, 2016)

Depending on the background of the wine, Some Reds can be dropping particulates for up to a year. If headspace is properly addressed, the overall exposure of a batch (23L on average) to oxygen is much less in a carboy than if bottled.....


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## TonyR (Jul 16, 2016)

I bulk age in carboys, during the aging time is when i put in oak spirals. Another benefit to bulk aging is thah the wine naturally degasses so I don't introduce masive amounts of oxygen using a drill and paint mixer or using a machine designed to bleed car hydraulic systems.


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## heatherd (Jul 17, 2016)

I bulk age for 6 months in carboys these days. I add 1/4 teaspoon kmeta every three months.

The benefits are that you can eliminate clearing agents since the wine clears itself. It degasses itself, as well. You can taste it and make any necessary adjustments in terms of acid, tannins, or oak. When I bottle wine earlier than six months, I end up with sediment in the bottles.


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## Johnd (Jul 17, 2016)

terrymck said:


> Tim Vandergrift claims that O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork



If your carboy is properly topped up, the ratio of air to wine is way less in a carboy than in a bottle. Unless you're constantly pulling your stopper out and fooling with your wine, I don't believe that statement is correct.


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## barbiek (Jul 17, 2016)

And also as heatherd mention, additions can be made most fresh fruit wines with the exception of dragon blood don't come around till 6 mos to a year


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## terrymck (Jul 17, 2016)

_*I don't believe that statement is correct.
*_
https://winemakermag.com/58-aging-your-kit-wine-kits

Take it up with Tim


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## Johnd (Jul 17, 2016)

terrymck said:


> _*I don't believe that statement is correct.
> *_
> https://winemakermag.com/58-aging-your-kit-wine-kits
> 
> Take it up with Tim



I wasn't questioning whether or not he wrote it, but whether or not it was correct. 

After reading the link you posted (3 times), and please forgive me if I missed it 3 times, but I don't even see where Tim wrote that "O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork". 

Perhaps the link is wrong, the author of this article is "WneMaker Staff".


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## dcbrown73 (Jul 17, 2016)

Well, lets break this down.

If you have to add k-meta every three months when the wine is in a carboy, but only once in the bottle. Something is amiss here.

If you bottle your wine at 3 months. Say on a a cabernet sauvignon. What should the SO2 ppm be? If it should be maintained say at around 50pp, and you have to keep adding the k-meta at every three months. What should your k-meta be at when you bottle at 3 month, but expect to age for 18 months in the bottle?

If the dose at 3 months was 1/8 or even 1/4 tsp to get you to six months. That would suggest (logically anyhow) that right before you bottle at three months, you would want to dose at least 1 full tsp if not more and that doesn't sound right to me.

If the carboy requires repetitive dosing and bottling does not. I would think the carboy gives more exposure to oxygen. Then on the flip side, exposure to gas per volume of wine would suggest the bottle has more exposure since 750ml with a finger space of air is a lot greater than 1-3 fingers in the top of a carboy at six gallons.

Then again; once a cork is in, you aren't removing it every three months to dose or rack it limiting oxygen exposure. 

Also, you have $x ppm of oxygen in the top of the bottle. If you've put enough k-meta in the bottle. All the oxygen molecules should over time should attach themselves to the k-meta and I would think the remaining gas becomes inert. (providing that is how the chemistry works) That is as long as you don't remove the cork.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud.


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## Floandgary (Jul 17, 2016)

terrymck said:


> _*I don't believe that statement is correct.
> *_
> https://winemakermag.com/58-aging-your-kit-wine-kits
> 
> Take it up with Tim



OK,,,, here we go!!! Tim's statement on bottle aging vs. bulk/carboy has nothing to do with oxygen exposure nor is it mentioned. In the commercial arena it is prudent to bottle as soon as the wine is "clear and stabilized". Most wines in the commercial arena are meant to be consumed within 5yrs., so the concept of aging is really not a factor. Tim DOES present the advantages of carboy aging over bottle in certain circumstances. So for the Home Winemakers such as us, We would be hard pressed to determine whether carboy or bottle aging has any edge!!! "PERSONAL PREFERENCE HERE"


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## terrymck (Jul 17, 2016)

_*but I don't even see where Tim wrote that "O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork". *_


You are correct this article is from the staff. The Tim V article is not on line anymore for some reason. There is even an earlier thread pertaining to this article on here but the link is broken. The piece entitled "Making your kit wine shine, redeaux" is in my possession as a printed article. I tried to upload a scanned version but the forum rules do not allow something of that size. The best that I can do is to cut and paste the comments.

you could alter this schedule to suit yourself, as long as you got the wine out of the open fermenter and into a carboy in the first week or so, and sulphited and racked it off of the heavy sediment within the first month. Everything else is negotiable. By taking a hands-off approach you let the yeast do what they do best (make the wine for you) and you remove the biggest source of potential problems (unnecessary intervention ! ) from the equation. I don,t recommend much long-term bulk ageing beyond this point: once a wine is fully completed fermentation, clarifying, and-most of the early ageing processes, the best place to put it for long-term storage is in a bottle, under a good cork. The interface seal between the neck of a carboy and the bung is actually really leaky: the oxygen transfer rate is hundreds of times higher than that of a cork. If you want your wine to age gracefully and appropriately, a bottle is the best place for it. Next time: degassing, must and wine analysis, and manipulating your specific gravity. Now where's my copy of Grammatolosy?
. PRINT
http.//winemakermag.com/blogs/making-your-kit-wine-shine-redeaux?prinrl&tmplo... 
lllr4l20l4


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## NorCal (Jul 18, 2016)

It's all about how the carboy is sealed. A water based airlock is not a good solution for long term aging; too much O2 can pass through to the wine. 

A proper cork gives a bottle an excellent seal.


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## Noontime (Jul 18, 2016)

I don't think there is a hard pass/fail, right/wrong, yes/no answer to this and falls under personal preference. I hate to interpret other peoples words, but I've read and heard Tim expound on this subject enough times to think I understand his position. As others have said, if the wine is complete and you don't plan on doing anything else to it, the best place for it is in a bottle to age properly. If you want it to degas, add oak, take a nip of it every once in a while to see how it's doing, and/or adjust anything if it's going the wrong way, then obviously bulk aging gives you that ability. Also keep in mind Tim (at the time) was speaking on behalf of a kit manufacturer, where their philosophy on consistency and early consumption relies on adhering to their instructions (which says to get it in the bottle). Daniel Pambianchi (another expert) has wines in carboys for over a decade, but has just recently started bottling recent wines much sooner.


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## gamble (Jul 18, 2016)

*Great inputs*

From the posted link from Tim V :"There is no magic chemical process that is aided by storing it in a larger volume". So plus and minus from both but no 23L magical powers. ( Next question: I am building a deck, What the best material to use?:


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## ibglowin (Jul 18, 2016)

I did Free SO2 test years ago on 23L Carboys and saw a huge difference between an airlock and a solid stopper in a glass carboy. Solid stoppers were the hands down winners with little to no change over 6-9 months of bulk aging vs an air lock (which breaths basically) and drops almost as fast as a 23L wine barrel.




NorCal said:


> It's all about how the carboy is sealed. A water based airlock is not a good solution for long term aging; too much O2 can pass through to the wine.
> 
> A proper cork gives a bottle an excellent seal.


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## opus345 (Jul 19, 2016)

terrymck said:


> _*but I don't even see where Tim wrote that "O2 contact is many times greater in a carboy than behind a good cork". *_
> 
> You are correct this article is from the staff. The Tim V article is not on line anymore for some reason.



It is available via the Way Back Machine at: http://web.archive.org/web/20150915....com/blogs/making-your-kit-wine-shine-redeaux


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## richmke (Jul 19, 2016)

IMHO,

While aging in a carboy may seem similar to aging in a barrel, there are big differences. The most obvious being that a carboy does not add oak. That can be equalized by adding oak cubes, spirals, etc. Things not as adjustable are: The barrel allows for slow oxidation, and slow evaporation (concentration).

For me, the main benefits of carboy aging are:

1) Takes up less space than 30 bottles
2) Allows wine to naturally clear vs using additives
3) Degasses the wine.
4) You can tweak the wine as it ages - oak, tannin, etc. (but I don't do that).
5) Worry less about cork life - one more year in the carboy is one less year the cork has to last in the bottle.
6) Less worry about cork taint the shorter it is in the bottle.

The main benefit of bottle aging is: You don't have to worry about it (other than the cork).

I do wonder about slow oxidation for aging wine. IMHO, there comes a point in time (1-2 years?) when you want it in the bottle for that reason.


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## NorCal (Jul 19, 2016)

When you think about it, the carboy is just a big bottle. As long as you can seal it well, it can be safely stored for many years. The key is getting it to seal at the opening. 
Jamming in an oversized piece of bark provides a proven seal in a bottle, you just need to find a solid bung that will do the same, if you want to age in a carboy.


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## JohnT (Jul 19, 2016)

NorCal said:


> When you think about it, the carboy is just a big bottle. As long as you can seal it well, it can be safely stored for many years. The key is getting it to seal at the opening.
> Jamming in an oversized piece of bark provides a proven seal in a bottle, you just need to find a solid bung that will do the same, if you want to age in a carboy.


 
I came across this fellow that worked for a water cooler company. He ended up giving me a whole box of these.....







They work great, are food safe, and simply snap on. Unfortunately, they are not reusable.


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## dcbrown73 (Jul 19, 2016)

NorCal said:


> When you think about it, the carboy is just a big bottle. As long as you can seal it well, it can be safely stored for many years. The key is getting it to seal at the opening.
> Jamming in an oversized piece of bark provides a proven seal in a bottle, you just need to find a solid bung that will do the same, if you want to age in a carboy.



Silicone stoppers? Seems if there was a little gas left, it could release it without allowing oxygen to enter after the fact.


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## terrymck (Jul 19, 2016)

*It is available via the Way Back Machine at*

Wow impressive Opus!

I must admit I am becoming more confident in carboy storage having a batch in for 4 months now. Ever since I have used Steve's head space eliminator I have not bothered to top up and no longer adulterate my wine or waste already bottled product. I was apprehensive for awhile about not topping and wanted to bottle as soon as possible. The longer a carboy goes under vaccume the more comfortable I become.


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## jsbeckton (Jul 22, 2016)

For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?


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## bkisel (Jul 22, 2016)

jsbeckton said:


> For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?



Interesting question. Don't know about solid bungs/stoppers but I use two layers of Saran Wrap and will notice bulking in and out of the wrap due, I believe, to changes in atmospheric pressure.


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## dcbrown73 (Jul 22, 2016)

jsbeckton said:


> For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?






bkisel said:


> Interesting question. Don't know about solid bungs/stoppers but I use two layers of Saran Wrap and will notice bulking in and out of the wrap due, I believe, to changes in atmospheric pressure.



This is where I was thinking about switching to those silicone breathable stoppers.

They are basically like solid bungs, but actually do have a hole. It's plugged, but internal pressure can push it out just enough to allow the gas to escape then close back up.






_This high quality Silicone Stopper gives a great airtight seal while still allowing gasses to escape. 

Fits 3,5,6 & 6.5 Gallon glass carboys and 500ml flasks. This breathable Silicone Carboy Stopper acts as both a solid stopper and an airlock. The unique design allows CO2 pressure to escape but keeps oxygen and airborne contamination out. Beer makers love using it during the ferment because it creates a vacuum when the wort cools, instead of pulling water in from your traditional airlock. The airtight seal is great for extended lager fermentations when CO2 production is still present but only very slightly. 

Measures 1 1/2" wide at the top and 1/8" at the bottom._​


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## bkisel (Jul 22, 2016)

A 1-way (out) gas valve stopper... that should work.


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## Johny99 (Jul 22, 2016)

jsbeckton said:


> For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?



Only when I put the stopper in cold, as in just finished cold stabilization and racking. Otherwise, I push them in and am ok. My winery is controlled within 5 deg F, so that helps. If you have trouble with them coming out, you can use one wrap of cling wrap to give some more friction.


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## ibglowin (Jul 23, 2016)

Yes, I have lots of experience with solid stoppers and they will push the stopper out if the temperature rises (alcohol will expand) and push the stopper. You need to have a stable temperature or at worst temperature must be falling to use them. You can of course use a piece of duct tape for a little extra insurance. 

I have a temperature controlled winery/cellar and they work great under these conditions.



jsbeckton said:


> For those that age in a carboy with a solid stopper, any issues with temperature changes pushing the stopper out due to the slight change in headspace?


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## jsbeckton (Jul 23, 2016)

I am just aging in my basement so I will get a gradual temp swing over the year. I guess my other question is do you fully degas BEFORE adding the solid stopper? Was thinking that it I want to bulk age/degass I would need to have and airlock on to allow the gas to escape.


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## ibglowin (Jul 24, 2016)

Absolutely. It must be fully degassed and stabilized before a solid stopper is even considered.



jsbeckton said:


> I am just aging in my basement so I will get a gradual temp swing over the year. I guess my other question is do you fully degas BEFORE adding the solid stopper? Was thinking that it I want to bulk age/degass I would need to have and airlock on to allow the gas to escape.


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## richmke (Jul 24, 2016)

jsbeckton said:


> do you fully degas BEFORE adding the solid stopper? Was thinking that it I want to bulk age/degass



I use a vented silicone bung, and do NOT degas. The vent is a one-way, and lets the gas out. Negative pressure will suck the bung down. Sometimes I have to release the vacuum to take off the bung.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 14, 2016)

A properly maintained Airlock with a good sealing cap or drilled bung is unlikely to allow a large amount of air into the carboy. Sure bottling does give you a more precise seal but as so many others have mentioned. If your wine throws off sediment a month or 6 months later you are stuck. In a carboy, you are going to rack and perhaps filter just before bottling.

We aren't talking about the difference in a 'topped off plastic bucket and a bottle or carboy here. In reality the surface area on the common 1 - 5 gallon carboy is far less than the total surface area of the bottles of wine that carboy will fill. And the same applies to the volume of air. 

Seems like a tempest in a teapot. The only concern I have is for the newbie who pops in a solid bung 6 weeks or even 3 months into the aging process. For them, if that solid bung pops out they are not going to know about it until the go the check the wine and that could happen 1 day or 1 month after the bung pops loose - talk about exposure to O2 and oxidation.


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## Voltron (Nov 4, 2016)

Would you add sorbate before adding a solid bung??


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## jgmann67 (Nov 4, 2016)

Voltron said:


> Would you add sorbate before adding a solid bung??



In a dry (or nearly dry and stable) wine, I wouldn't add sorbate at any time during the process.


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## drainsurgeon (Nov 4, 2016)

My first thought is that Vandergrift if probably right. Adding k-meta every three months and an occasionally racking is going to expose a lot more o2 than in the bottle.

This does raise a question for me that I've thought about for a while. If bulk aging requires additional dosing of sulfides every 3 months, where does it go to and why doesn't that happen in the bottle?


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## ibglowin (Nov 4, 2016)

Airlocks breath with changes in ATM pressure. Stoppers, not so much. That is my results of experiments over time using my A/O rig and doing side by side testing of two wines in a 23L carboy one with an airlock and one with a solid stopper. If the temps in your storage area are stable or falling it is safe to use a solid stopper.

Where does the SO2 go? It gets tied up with oxygen and is no longer "free" SO2 available to protect your wine from oxidation.


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## Johny99 (Nov 4, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> My first thought is that Vandergrift if probably right. Adding k-meta every three months and an occasionally racking is going to expose a lot more o2 than in the bottle.
> 
> This does raise a question for me that I've thought about for a while. If bulk aging requires additional dosing of sulfides every 3 months, where does it go to and why doesn't that happen in the bottle?



It does happen in the bottle as well. The SO2 gets bound by the O2. However, O2 ingress is very slow in the bottle with a good cork, and even slower with some of the synthetics or a screw top. Thus, the free SO2 level doesn't drop as quickly. A fun experiment is to test after time in the bottle with different closures. I've not had the time to develop curves, but once I'm rid of a day job......


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## trucknut (Nov 6, 2016)

*Saran Topping!*

When I first started into wine making, I feared the air locks would dry out while bulk aging. I wrapped saran wrap around the top portion of the air lock leaving a bit of bulkiness and sealing with a rubber band. At the time I had no idea this would slow down the air exchange thru the water. 
Now I'm going to use this method for bulk aging as well as the solid rubber plug with a bulky saran rubber band topping in case the plugs lifts up.
My wine storage area has a very constant temperature, so far keeping the rubber plugs in the carboy.


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## jpftribe (Nov 6, 2016)

jgmann67 said:


> In a dry (or nearly dry and stable) wine, I wouldn't add sorbate at any time during the process.



So you are saying sorbate is strictly a backsweetening tool? Noob here. I added sorbates to a white non-mlf wine because I also thought it protected against oxidation as well as arresting fermentation.


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## NorCal (Nov 7, 2016)

Sorbate stops yeast from reproducing...that's it. If you are not back sweetening, there is no need to add. One less thing to ingest into your digestive system.


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## jgmann67 (Nov 7, 2016)

jpftribe said:


> So you are saying sorbate is strictly a backsweetening tool? Noob here. I added sorbates to a white non-mlf wine because I also thought it protected against oxidation as well as arresting fermentation.




NorCal is correct. Use the sorbate to stop fermentation; we use kmeta to aid in the prevention of oxidation.


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## Scooter68 (Nov 7, 2016)

When I was first getting my equipment for wine making I found some drilled rubber bungs from a scientific supply site. HUGE MISTAKE. The rubber bung imparted a heavy rubber odor to the air in the carboy and possibly to the wine itself. As a result I no longer use ANY rubber products with my wine making - the alcohol and acid contend of the wine does not mix well with some rubber varities and my plastic carboy cap for my airlocks seal just fine. 

Periodically I check the solution in the airlock and use a spare airlock filled with fresh sanitizer to replace a cloudy or low level airlock. Exposure to air is so minimal in the second or two it takes to swap the airlocks.

As to aging in a bottle or in bulk. Hey if that wine is perfectly clear and doesn't drop any sediment fine. But once you've taken the time, energy and materials to bottle - any late dropping sediment is going to sorta ruin the looks of that wine even if it does nothing to the taste.

The concerns about O2 exposure seem a bit over the top here. If you rack properly then there should be no splashing. Those who use a vacuum pump for racking are already lowering the exposure by pulling out the O2 and in fact degassing the incoming wine. 

Whatever works for you but again this seems like a debate that nobody wins except those selling more and more supplies to the folks taking extraordinary steps.


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