# South African Cab Sauv



## pgentile (Apr 15, 2017)

Hi all, we picked up 120 lbs(6 lugs) of South African Cab Sauv grapes today from South Jersey Dist.. Wanted Pinotage but didn't reserve them early enough. The grapes look and taste great. Crushed earlier, temp is around 45f right now. Haven't checked ph, brix, etc yet waiting for it warm up. Added 2 grams of Kmeta.

My concern is, three of the lugs had considerable amount of what looked like dark mold on the protective paper sheet under the grapes. The grapes didn't have any visible mold, but they are dark and so was the mold. Doesn't have an odor.

Anything I should do beside the Kmeta?

Also picked up 108 lbs of Chilean Malbec grapes. No issues with these so far. Waiting for the must to get up to temp here as well.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 16, 2017)

I've occasionally seen that, but I'm not sure its actually mold. Never a considerable amount though. Would like to see what others say.


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## pgentile (Apr 16, 2017)

Thanks Boatboy, I'm less concerned today, and yes although mold like, there was also some gelatinous like layer on the bottom of one lug, it didn't have an odor or seem to be on the grapes themselves. 

Took readings and pitched yeast this morning.

South African Cab Sauv Brix 26 TA 6.5 PH 3.66
Chilean Malbec Brix 25 TA 6 PH 3.15

Concerned a little bit about the PH in the Malbec, but going to let it ride.


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## pgentile (May 22, 2017)

The tale of two wines continues. 

Pitched both batches at the same time with RC212, used the same punch down tool for both batches. Added MLB to both around day 5.

At around day 8 the Malbec cap wasn't quite as robust as the Cab. Day 10 same thing with caps, Malbec was flatlining at .990 and Cab was at .996, pressed both and moved into secondaries.

Malbec and Cab both smelled fine. The Malbec had no activity what so ever immediately in secondary, not even a degassing, while Cab seemed to be degassing and/or MLF activity. Cab is still showing MLF activity today.

At day 30 with nothing happening in the secondary of the Malbec I decided to rack off the lees add kmeta and oak, but when I opened the carboy I was hit with the most horrible smell. It's beyond sulfur more like a late August uncleaned port-a-potty. I didn't know wine could smell this bad. I splash racked it three times added kmeta, and although the smell has dissipated it still lingers.

Not sure what went wrong. PH too low at 3.15? Nutrients? Infection? Some sort of combo?

I did add yeast nutrients at the beginning and MLF nutrients when MLB pitched

I don't want to hit this with copper, but might have no choice.

The only positive I see is it's clearing quicker than anything I have made to date.

Any insights would be much appreciated.


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## cmason1957 (May 22, 2017)

Usually bad smells like that are due to unhappy yeast during primary or being left on the lees to long, or a combination of both. 30 days is about 14 or 15 more than I would have left them on the lees. Many people go 2-5 days. 3.15 might be a bit low for MLF to take off, it depends on the Malolactic bacteria used. I would not treat this with copper, at least not yet. Reduless is a much nicer, controlled way to help remove the smells from stressed yeast. Here is a link to order it: https://morewinemaking.com/products/reduless.html?site_id=5. it is sometimes a bit hard to find.


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## pgentile (May 22, 2017)

Will purchase this afternoon, thank you


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## pgentile (May 22, 2017)

Ordered Reduless for the Malbec, crossing my fingers.

Racked the Cab off the lees today and it smells and taste pretty darn good. 38 days since crush, 33 days since MLB, 28 days since press. Still fine bubble activity. 

I treated both grape batches the same. Nutrients, yeast, MLB, tools, etc. But I guess the malbec needed to be treated differently. PH corrected? More nutrient additions? Racked off the lees sooner? All of the above? Also I didn't cool down the ferments this year with frozen water bottles.


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## Johnd (May 22, 2017)

pgentile said:


> I treated both grape batches the same. Nutrients, yeast, MLB, tools, etc. But I guess the malbec needed to be treated differently. PH corrected? More nutrient additions? Racked off the lees sooner? All of the above? Also I didn't cool down the ferments this year with frozen water bottles.



Just narrowing down the variables (since both wines were handled the same) would lead me to the pH issue of the Malbec, which should have adjusted upwards prefermentation, yielding a pH in the range which would allow both AF and MLF to progress without stress. It's better to make these adjustments in the must and allow the acidity to be integrated into the wine during its creation. Length of time on the gross lees is a little long as well. 

That said, all is not lost. With the reduless and the racking protocol it requires, you should be able to rid the wine of the stinkies, get your pH up a bit, and create a more favorable environment for your MLB. I believe that when grapes are shipped a distance, the protective SO2 that is used can be detrimental to MLF, and don't add any more when I get my must, FWIW........


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## pgentile (May 23, 2017)

Thanks John. Lessons learned.


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## pgentile (May 25, 2017)

Received the Reduless today, followed instruction and added to the Malbec. Says to wait 72 hours and rack. 

3.15 pH reading still. Would any of you adjust this after the Reduless process? Attempt MLF after? I did add Kmeta when I splashed racked the other day.

The odor has dissipated quite a bit, but still there, hoping this stuff knocks it out.


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## cmason1957 (May 25, 2017)

At pH of 3.15 and you added sulfites, I would be surprised if mlf will take off. So I would probably not add the bacteria to it.


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## pgentile (May 28, 2017)

cmason that's what I was afraid of.

It's 72 hours since the Reduless was added, but can't rack until am tomorrow. I hope and additional 12-16 hours won't be an issue.


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## cmason1957 (May 28, 2017)

pgentile said:


> cmason that's what I was afraid of.
> 
> It's 72 hours since the Reduless was added, but can't rack until am tomorrow. I hope and additional 12-16 hours won't be an issue.



I don't think delaying for an extra few hours will cause any issues. From what I understand about how it works, the Sulphur gets bound up and sinks to the bottom. But, I wouldn't wait days or weeks.


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## pgentile (May 28, 2017)

Thanks, there is about an inch of sediment that has dropped out since the Reduless.


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## pgentile (May 29, 2017)

Well, although quite diminished after racking today, the odor is still there.


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## pgentile (May 29, 2017)

Don't know if this worth putting anymore effort into. Guess we'll see what time does to it.


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## Boatboy24 (May 30, 2017)

You won't get all of it to dissipate after a single racking. Patience is also required.


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## JohnT (May 30, 2017)

pgentile said:


> Don't know if this worth putting anymore effort into. Guess we'll see what time does to it.


 

If this is an H2S issue, simply waiting is the wrong thing to do. H2S will "morph" into other issues that are not so easily cured. 

How much Redueless did you apply? Perhaps you need to give it a second treatment?


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## pgentile (May 30, 2017)

John hi, yeah I was going to ask about doing a second Redueless application. I bought and used enough for six gallon application. It's not expensive, I will order another.

It definately diminished the odor, especially in the one gallon jug versus the 5 gl carboy, and I think because proportionately it a little more redueless per gallon than the carboy. 

Thanks


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## Ajmassa (May 30, 2017)

Assuming your pH still low at 3.15 do you plan on adjusting after this odor issue hopefully is handled?
And also did you ever check or test to see if the MLF ever took off at all on the Malbec in spite of all this?? 
I've been following along since your original post. I've heard reduless suggested often and I'm curious and hopeful to see how it works out for you. 
And since I'm already bombarding you with questions I have 1 more. Would using copper run the risk of damaging the wine?


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## pgentile (May 30, 2017)

Ordered 30g of Reduless online this time. LHBS doesn't carry. Will give another treatment soon as it arrives.


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## pgentile (May 30, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 hi, as I read in another thread, it sounds like addressing the low pH could be approached with blending with a high pH wine. But I'm curious to know what others think.

If I get the stink out of this finally, would any of you adjust the pH if you had nothing appropriate to blend with?

I haven't tested to see if the MLF went off or completed, but will when I rack from the next Reduless.

I would rather not go the copper route, although I am in a sense because reduless contains copper.


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## Ajmassa (May 30, 2017)

I'm just starting to research raising pH, as I will also likely need to do this. I'm Not able to blend either. So all signs are pointing to potassium bicarbonate.
And FWIW, 2 batches with similar low pH both successfully went through MLF.


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## Ajmassa (May 30, 2017)

This article breaks it all down nicely. It's kind of wordy and scientific, but the writer breaks it down well for people like us to understand. 
http://wine.wsu.edu/research-extension/2010/10/managing-high-acidity/


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## JohnT (May 31, 2017)

+1 on the answers provided by @pgentile .

Redueless is dead yeast cells that has been impregnated with copper, so in effect using redueless and treating with copper is the same thing. 

so why go with redueless? It all comes down to control! 

If you were to pouring your wine over a copper sheet, or send it through a copper pipe, you have no control over just how much copper you are adding. 

For this reason, I started using copper sulfate. I always hated using copper sulfate because in higher concentrations, copper sulfate is toxic.

With Redueless, I had control over the copper dosage with it also being far less toxic. Awesome product!


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## pgentile (May 31, 2017)

Thanks for the link AJ.

JohnT, makes sense, thanks


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## pgentile (Jun 3, 2017)

Added second application of Reduless today. Odor is much diminished but still present, let's see what the next 72 hours brings.


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## pgentile (Jun 7, 2017)

Good news, the second Reduless application succeeded. Well more likely the three splash racks and two Reduless applications over two weeks succeeded. I racked the Malbec today and the odor is gone. It actually smells and tastes like very young wine. pH is still 3.15. Malo is 100 mg/L +. Hydrometer reads .990. 

One more request for advice on pH and Malo? What would you do?


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## pgentile (Jun 24, 2017)

I'm still debating what to do if anything with this wine. Looks like my options are as follows:

1. Treat with Potassium BiCarbonate. Then cold stabilize. I'll have to rack to one gallon containers during cold stabilization, no room in refers for 5 gal carboy. How long does one keep it in the cold? Read that this process can strip aroma and flavor? And once through the cold period would pitching MLB make sense? Articles state do not attempt to adjust acid more than .3%, what would a .1, .2 or .3 % acid adjustment do to pH? Acid and pH inter-relation confuses me sometimes.

2. Blend with future batches or kits. I did this with kits and an overly sweat attempt at blackberry wine two+ years ago. All blended kits turned out good.

3. Leave alone and deal with the results. Probably not going to happen.

4. Curious as to how kit manufactures adjust kits, that they are not MLF recommended. Do they reduce the Malo some how? Do they add Lactose to balance? I thought I read something here a while ago but can't seem to find it. Can I take an approach similar to kit manufacturers?

On a good note the South African Cab is doing quite well. Still seeing small slow pinprick bubbles rising. Will check Malo in a few weeks.


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## Johnd (Jun 24, 2017)

pgentile said:


> I'm still debating what to do if anything with this wine. Looks like my options are as follows:
> 
> 1. Treat with Potassium BiCarbonate. Then cold stabilize. I'll have to rack to one gallon containers during cold stabilization, no room in refers for 5 gal carboy. How long does one keep it in the cold? Read that this process can strip aroma and flavor? And once through the cold period would pitching MLB make sense? Articles state do not attempt to adjust acid more than .3%, what would a .1, .2 or .3 % acid adjustment do to pH? Acid and pH inter-relation confuses me sometimes.
> 
> ...



We're it mine, and it needed to go through MLF, based on taste, I'd adjust it upward to a pH where MLF would succeed, then put it through MLF. At completion, give it some aging time and do more taste testing, and see where the pH/TA is post MLF. Remember that CS on a wine with a pH below 3.6 may actually drop the pH, so consider carefully your plan to CS. Personally, I'd store it in my wine room, and it would drop some crystals at 55F, but then would be ready to bottle and age at 55F without further precipitation. 

Your other really decent option is to consider doing some sweetening to overcome the acidity, either with sugar to glycerin. I'd definitely do some bench trials to explore this option thoroughly. 

Low pH wines are a little more challenging, but have some bright sides as well, less sulfite needed for protection, and they generally age well. 

Keep posting and let us know what you decide!!


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## Ajmassa (Jun 24, 2017)

1. The last time I was looking into this I'm pretty sure the ph and TA moved the same up and down. TA of .60% adjusted down to .50% would then have ph move one tenth decimal point. 3.15 to 3.25. According to morewine.com. 
Also, isn't there a option that does NOT require CS? A small potassium bicarb addition just to slightly raise it?? You don't want to go too high anyway if your gonna add malo bacteria, which should be under 3.4 I read. Going up .15 to 3.3 seems very doable without tons of work. I was almost positive that small acid adjustments (1 g/L or so) could be done without cold stabilizing. Hopefully. 

2. I personally would not blend fresh grapes from Gino Pintos with a kit ever. 

3. Ph 3.15 isn't insane and even if you did nothing at all to acid I'd bet your Malbec would still end up just fine. 
4. Sounds like you'd be making a complicated situation even more complicated. 

If the fact-checking ends up legit, then I would simply:
Raise ph to 3.25-3.3 with a small Kbicarb addition (hoping your able to do this without CS). 
Inoculate with a strong malo. And then as Johnd said "at completion, give it some aging time and do more taste testing, and see where the pH/TA is post MLF". Bing bang boom. 
Btw, If you blend it with a kit i'll be angry and call you a quitter. [emoji23]


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## pgentile (Jun 24, 2017)

Johnd & Ajmassa thanks for the advice. Going to take a another taste test tomorrow and decide to leave as is and age or raise pH slightly and then attempt MLF again. If I do try to raise it, I'll shoot for 3.3. No CS other than basement temp. If I don't go the potassium bicarb route and acidity remains an issue, I'll consider slight sweetening tests down the road. 

I hear yah AJ my fresh grape wine will never touch kit wine, except maybe in my stomach.


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## pgentile (Jul 2, 2017)

Hope I did this right. Added 6-2/3 tsp of k-bicarbonate to 5.5 gal of the Malbec this morning. Label said 1-1/3 tsp per gal. Wine had been most inert wine I had dealt with this young. Even during rackings after Reduless it did not appear to be degassing much or have much . It fizzed up adding the k-bicarb and appears to be degassing still and hour later. I'll wait a few weeks check pH and add MLB.


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## pgentile (Jul 8, 2017)

6 days since I added k-bicarb to the Malbec, continuous pin-prick small slow bubbles since. MLF kicked in? Activity looks the same as the SF Sauv Cab as far as activity at 10 weeks out. I did pitch the lower pH tolerant MLB way back when.

Volume was a little short to the neck of the carboy, possible MLF activity wasn't visible until adding k-bicarb brought it up to the neck, so it could have been under way already. 

Ordering Chromatology test kit, to know for sure, will test both batches after a few more weeks.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 9, 2017)

Good move on the chroma test. Better off knowing for sure. I haven't had to raise ph at all yet, just a couple of 'almosts', so I'm rooting for ya. How long do you wait? 
Very curious to see the results once you hit the lab with all your testing. I've got a feeling everything's gonna work out. Higher ph, malic acid gone, nasty smell fully removed and a SA Malbec ready to age gracefully.


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## pgentile (Jul 9, 2017)

Not sure how much longer to wait. It's been 60+ days since MLB was added. The SA Cab Sauv has no kmeta yet. The Malbec has had a kmeta dose through all the issues. I think I'll test the Cab Sauv within the next few weeks and wait another 30 days for the Malbec.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 9, 2017)

I meant how long to wait for the Kbicarb to work and check ph. Also I'm thinking the chroma test results will tell you what you need to do in terms of k-meta. 
In a perfect world they both had successful MLF and can be sulfited right away. Which Malo culture did you use?


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## pgentile (Jul 9, 2017)

I was planning to check pH at the same time as doing the Chromatology. I think in two more weeks. The Malo was Wyeast #4007 Malo Lactic Blend I couldn't get any VP41 at the time.


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## pgentile (Jul 20, 2017)

Received the Chromatography kit yesterday. Going to test the Malbec, Cab Sauv and a kit Cab Sauv on Saturday. The instruction seem straight forward. Anything that I should be aware of outside of the instructions? And is it actually best to dry outside?


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## stickman (Jul 20, 2017)

It is normally not recommended to dry with sun exposure.


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## Boatboy24 (Jul 20, 2017)

pgentile said:


> And is it actually best to dry outside?



If you live with my wife, yes.  She's got a sensitive sniffer and always complains about the fumes when I'm drying the chromo. I'll sometimes put it in the garage to dry.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 20, 2017)

pgentile said:


> Received the Chromatography kit yesterday. Going to test the Malbec, Cab Sauv and a kit Cab Sauv on Saturday. The instruction seem straight forward. Anything that I should be aware of outside of the instructions? And is it actually best to dry outside?



Yes, dry outside but not in the sunlight. Stuff is way potent. Also drying takes all day, or overnight--I didn't realize this at first. 
Oh and one more thing, make sure it DOES NOT look anything at all this. My 1st attempt rushing and VERY briefly skimming through directions.


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## ceeaton (Jul 20, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Oh and one more thing, make sure it DOES NOT look anything at all this. My 1st attempt rushing and VERY briefly skimming through directions.



I still think you should frame that one. I'd buy it for $25. To me that captures the essence of my early winemaking experiences. And only a winemaker would understand...

As always, thank you for sharing.

I too dry it in my garage for a few hours (have a nail in the wall where I hang it). Then I bring it down to a second nail in my basement among the rafters where a constant airflow dries it within a few hours, with minimal smell upstairs.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 21, 2017)

ceeaton said:


> I still think you should frame that one. I'd buy it for $25. To me that captures the essence of my early winemaking experiences. And only a winemaker would understand...
> 
> As always, thank you for sharing.
> .




Well I still have it. And it hasn't lost the color much. 
I can see myself hosting a dinner party. 
"This piece? Well this piece represents the struggle for success of an early winemaker. It captures the difficulty of the vast scientific knowledge they seek to learn. But at the same time, if you look closely, you can see the faded malo. This piece is saying 'making mistakes is inevitable, but the potential for success keeps us moving forward". Whatcha think? Lol


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## sour_grapes (Jul 21, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well I still have it. And it hasn't lost the color much.
> I can see myself hosting a dinner party.
> "This piece? Well this piece represents the struggle for success of an early winemaker. It captures the difficulty of the vast scientific knowledge they seek to learn. But at the same time, if you look closely, you can see the faded malo. This piece is saying 'making mistakes is inevitable, but the potential for success keeps us moving forward". Whatcha think? Lol



"Intimates the melancholy despair and emergent banality of existence, yet tempered by the numinous, the immanent, that dwells within each solitary, imperfect being."


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## Ajmassa (Jul 21, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> "Intimates the melancholy despair and emergent banality of existence, yet tempered by the numinous, the immanent, that dwells within each solitary, imperfect being."




Im speechless! Must be that prestigious HS education. And now I am way too attached with emotional investment. Sorry Craig , not for sale. This piece has just become near and dear to my heart.


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## pgentile (Jul 21, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yes, dry outside but not in the sunlight. Stuff is way potent. Also drying takes all day, or overnight--I didn't realize this at first.
> Oh and one more thing, make sure it DOES NOT look anything at all this. My 1st attempt rushing and VERY briefly skimming through directions.



I'll try and learn from other people's mistakes. OK no sunlight. No huffing the fumes.

We'll see how it goes. Samples on sheet drying right now, about 50 min so far. Solvent in about 10 min or so. 

See if I can find an office stapler around here. Even paperclips are tough to find in this house. I do have a shingle stapler, but that might be overkill.


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## ceeaton (Jul 21, 2017)

pgentile said:


> I'll try and learn from other people's mistakes. OK no sunlight. No huffing the fumes.
> 
> We'll see how it goes. Samples on sheet drying right now, about 50 min so far. Solvent in about 10 min or so.
> 
> See if I can find an office stapler around here. Even paperclips are tough to find in this house. I do have a shingle stapler, but that might be overkill.



I sometimes use a stapler, but the staple instantly rusts when the fluid wicks up to it. I permanently borrowed some coated paper clips from my daughter, they seem to work the best.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 21, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Im speechless! Must be that prestigious HS education.



So I had Fr. Dennis for senior English. Who did you have?


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## Ajmassa (Jul 22, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> So I had Fr. Dennis for senior English. Who did you have?




Priests were only teaching Theology classes during my time. Though there was one amazing English teacher who we may have shared; Mr. Mooney. Probably the most energetic, genuine and passionate teacher I ever had. Reminded me of Robin Williams from Dead Poets Society.


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## pgentile (Jul 22, 2017)

So the South African Cab Sauv is completed with MLF. The Malbec has clearly not, nor the Kit wine of course. But I did test the pH on the Malbec and it is now 3.60 on the nose. Re-calibrated Hanna pH meter and tested again, 3.60. The K-bicarb I added was supposed to bring from 3.15 to the range of 3.25 - 3.30. Anyways, I have vial of Wyeast Malo and will try one more time.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 22, 2017)

pgentile said:


> So the South African Cab Sauv is completed with MLF. The Malbec has clearly not, nor the Kit wine of course. But I did test the pH on the Malbec and it is now 3.60 on the nose. Re-calibrated Hanna pH meter and tested again, 3.60. The K-bicarb I added was supposed to bring from 3.15 to the range of 3.25 - 3.30. Anyways, I have vial of Wyeast Malo and will try one more time.




Rock n roll! To quote Meatloaf, "Two outta three ain't bad." 
-successfully removed the nasty smell 
- successfully raised the ph. Ive read on here to cut the dose in half and then check for this exact reason. But 3.6 works right?
-unsuccessful MLF. 
Hopefully this MLF takes off. The free So2 is the only concern now. Maybe feed it properly with starter and nutrient. With Acti-ml and opti-Malo to ensure best chance for success. They're cheap- probably pay more for s&h. 
Good looking test btw.


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## pgentile (Jul 22, 2017)

I have both Act-ml and opti-Malo. So2 is definitely a concern, but will give it one more try. 

Ajmassa and everyone else's thanks for all your help.


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## pgentile (Aug 20, 2017)

Looks like the Chilean Malbec is moving along with MLF at 29 days since added. It has few weeks to go but it's moving. Will give a stir today. Had no other wines to test so I did a blueberry and cherry wine also for the heck of it.

Want to thank everyone here who helped me nurse this batch along. I had at point written it off. Thank you thank you


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## Ajmassa (Aug 20, 2017)

pgentile said:


> Looks like the Chilean Malbec is moving along with MLF at 29 days since added. It has few weeks to go but it's moving. Will give a stir today. Had no other wines to test so I did a blueberry and cherry wine also for the heck of it.
> 
> Want to thank everyone here who helped me nurse this batch along. I had at point written it off. Thank you thank you




That's great news. Research and hard work paid off. Good timing too. You might be putting this one to rest just before the fall grapes demand all of your attention. Somebody up there lookin out for ya!


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## pgentile (Sep 20, 2017)

Did another chromatography test overnight. Malbec is still showing some malo, Zin/Cab/PS blend was co-inoculated and is showing progress at 18 days. Sangiovese/Syrah juice buckets were not inoculated with MLB and the test appears to be showing that. I will add MLB tomorrow to the sangio/syrah. 

Am I reading this correctly?


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## pgentile (Sep 21, 2017)

Please need advice....should I give up and any further MLF on the Malbec and move on with it? It looks like it hasn't changed in 30 day.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 21, 2017)

I was waiting to see what some of the more experienced MLFers thought about it just like you. 
Without any direction, I'm sure you could come up a logical way to proceed. What I think is probably the same as what you think. 

About a month in the first test showed good progression. But a month later seems like it there's been no change. 
So your going to inoculate your Syrah/sangio and will be doing another test in a few more weeks right?
I'm thinking you'll probably be advised to maybe give the Malbec maybe a half dose of Opti-malo, try and keep the temps up, and stir up the lees maybe 1-2x a week. If the next test shows progress, then great. If no change, then rack and stabilize with K-meta. 60% MLF is still better than no MLF. 
I did an obsessive amount of reading on MLF before this season, and partial MLF is a very common thing in commercial wines. For a gadjillion different reasons. But it doesn't hurt anything at all. 
Hopefully somebody else can impart some MLF wisdom here.


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## pgentile (Sep 21, 2017)

Thanks, seems like sound advice, I think I might be obsessing too much. But I need to read more on MLF myself.

Learning this stuff, ever so slowly, but I'm learning.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 21, 2017)

If it were me, I would wait, but that is almost always my answer with MLF. I am sure your worry is oxidation more than anything. Think to the way commercial wine is made, particularly in Europe. Rack into the barrel, let the barrel sit for several months, like over the winter, topping up, but not really much more. Let it get warm and MLF finishes. The time period is probably 6 or more months. I don't worry about or even hardly check for MLF completion in my basement for 3 months, then I wait an extra month just to make sure it is all done. It will finish, let it be.


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## pgentile (Sep 21, 2017)

cmason1957 said:


> If it were me, I would wait, but that is almost always my answer with MLF. I am sure your worry is oxidation more than anything. Think to the way commercial wine is made, particularly in Europe. Rack into the barrel, let the barrel sit for several months, like over the winter, topping up, but not really much more. Let it get warm and MLF finishes. The time period is probably 6 or more months. I don't worry about or even hardly check for MLF completion in my basement for 3 months, then I wait an extra month just to make sure it is all done. It will finish, let it be.



Two votes to give it more time. I will remain patient then. Thanks


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## Ajmassa (Sep 21, 2017)

Ummm. Let's call it 1.5 votes. Mine is more of an "educated guess". I've only got 2 MLF's under my belt and 2 more in the works. Co-inoculated all of em with VP-41 and so far it's been smooth sailing with no troubleshoots needed. 
Chroma test is still drying to check progress, and fingers crossed I get by with no hiccups again. I feel like it's easier said than done though: to just wait another 1-3 months for MLF to maybe finish while the wine is unprotected. 
All the research I've done, and trust me it was a ridiculous amount, has shown that MLF can definitely take a while to finish off the last little bit. Especially when added after AF. And when that happens there's still just a tad bit of malo left in there sometimes that refuses to convert. It's minimal, likely undetectable, but would prevent the chroma test from showing 100% (a "100% complete" chroma test actually has a large margin. And could still have over 30 mg/L). They say under 30 is considered complete. You start with hundreds I think. 
I saved all the sites, articles and research and development testing that I was looking at. I should post them in that other MLF inoculation thread. Here's what the other tests look like. I bet your closer than you think.


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## heatherd (Sep 21, 2017)

I agree on the waiting to see what happens. If it doesn't go as far as you'd hoped in a couple months, possibly dose with VP41 or similar dry bacteria; they seem more reliable sometimes than the liquid ones. Plus you get a 66-gallon dose rather than a 5-6 gallon dose with the dry, maybe that's why it works so well.


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## pgentile (Sep 21, 2017)

2.5 votes to give it some time.

This malbec was my 5th MLF, the first two, last fall, I didn't even put MLF nutrients in and they finished and wine is good. I have only read about MLF here and tidbits on other site, so nowhere near as up to speed as @ajmassa5983.

As you know this wine has had issues since moving to secondary, pH 3.15, too long on gross lees, hit with k-meta in a panic after secondary and the awful smell, two reduless applications. Surprised that any MLF took place at all. But will be adding MLB to the sangio/syrah tonight, I think I'll slip some in the malbec with opt-malo as well. And then wait another 30-60 days and retest. If no change then move on it will be close six months old then.

Last years batches were vp41, this years were White Labs Malo, that the LHBS had that someone ordered and never picked up. $9.99 vs $30+. I'll stick with vp41 in the future.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 21, 2017)

I have never used the liquid stuff, I have read many people having issues with it, in many places. I have used VP41, CH16, CH35 and EnoFerm Alpha. Of those four, I have like the EnoFerm Alpha the best, I have only used it once, this spring on 18 gallons of Chilean blend (Cab Sauv, Merlot, Malbec) and I was very impressed with how fast it took off and completed. As I said, I normally don't even pay much attention to them for three months, these were complete in three weeks. They started showing signs of taking off about two days after inoculation.


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## pgentile (Sep 21, 2017)

Thanks, on my way to look into EnoFerm Alpha.

So if others have had issues with liquid MLB, another variable on my malbec could be, that it was a co-inoculation with possibly a weak vial liquid of MLB that only went so far? It wasn't expired.


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## pgentile (Nov 13, 2017)

Waited a bit longer ran another test. Looks like the four wines started this fall have completed MLF. I'm going to let the sang/barbera site another few weeks as well as the problem malbec from the spring. Going to rack and sulfite the first three this next weekend. I probably should have thrown mlb into the blueberry.


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## Johnd (Nov 13, 2017)

pgentile said:


> Waited a bit longer ran another test. Looks like the four wines started this fall have completed MLF. I'm going to let the sang/barbera site another few weeks as well as the problem malbec from the spring. Going to rack and sulfite the first three this next weekend. I probably should have thrown mlb into the blueberry.



Strange, you have no tartaric spot, I've never seen that. It also looks like you didn't leave your paper in the developer solution long enough, as indicated by the white showing at the top of the page. The sheet needs to sit in there until the solution has soaked all of the way up to the top of the page.


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## pgentile (Nov 13, 2017)

Now that you mention it, I looked at my older tests and yes no tartaric spots, didn't catch that. It was in for six hours. I think after my sixth test or so, since i got it several months ago, that I don't have enough solution any more and/or it's not full strength anymore. But no spots at all? Will have to order more, and I just placed an order for other stuff earlier.

Thanks @Johnd for pointing that out.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 17, 2017)

I meant to ask you about when you added the K-bicarbonate to the Malbec. 
I haven't had to remove acid yet and might want to at some point soon. (Good numbers but I can taste it's more tartaric than I wanted)
Was there a noticeable difference in the taste when this was done? Common sense would tell me yes, but without having done it it's hard to know how all these Potass/Calc/carb/bicarb each affect the wine aside from the levels. The world of deacidification info can get overwhelming.


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## pgentile (Nov 18, 2017)

There was a slight difference in taste not as much as I would of thought, it was still young then, and not all that great, not bad, but not great. Thin body taste-wise. Visually it's the thinnest body I have ever seen in a malbec. The biggest thing was, giving a dose to get to around 3.3 from 3.15 ended up at 3.6 . Will be tasting in 3-4 weeks at next racking, In the future I will do all necessary pH/acid adjustments upfront.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 18, 2017)

Yea man. I’m slowly learning just how crucial those 1st couple weeks are. Adjusting up front should save loads of headaches. 
I also read an article about getting more body and color. And they gave a technique for getting another couple days on the skins. Towards the end of fermentation to not break the cap. And very gently punch to submerge without breaking it giving protection for longer skins contact. http://winegrapesdirect.com/crush-your-red-wine-competition-how-to-make-award-winning-wine-at-home/


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## pgentile (Nov 19, 2017)

Although I'm happy with everything this fall, grapes and juice wines. I do want to improve the body. Need to look at Lallzyme EX and Opt-Red this spring. I've never made sure a ferment got to 80, I think all have, but focused more keeping from going over 90.

Would like a further explanation on the cap towards the end of fermentation, I'm not sure my caps have been solid enough to punch down without breaking through, or I need a different punch down tool. Wouldn't breaking up the and submerging the cap completely give more contact?

I'm all for the extending the fermentation with reds. I think my zin from 2016 I didn't press until the cap fell. And it's one of my best so far.

I've been reading up on thermo-vinification and flash detente. While true flash detente is impractical for home winemaker, with the AIO the steam could be vacuumed off after heating. Thinking of attempting this with one lug in the spring.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 19, 2017)

I don’t know man. I had lots of questions after reading that article too. 
I do use lallyzyme ex (not enough) and sometimes opti red. but still feel the same about body and color. 
The “not breaking the cap” thing is something I want read up on and possibly use on Malbec I plan from Gino’s. Just want to keep improving like you said. 
I read that thermo-vin post. I think 100% you should do it, or some variation. Nothing to lose and everything to gain. You might end up being a trailblazer. 
I also want to buy better grapes. Pickins might be slim but I’m only doing enough for 6 gal. So I’m gonna justify a few bucks more for the best grapes I can’t get.


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## pgentile (Feb 16, 2018)

So after 10 months it was time to rack again and I decided to see where my problem malbec was at taste-wise. I just want to say thank you to everyone who helped on this, but this is not a bad malbec. It's lighter visually than most malbecs, but taste and mouthfeel are good. This wine stunk so bad after secondary I had no hope this would ever be drinkable. 

Thank you all again.


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