# Vine ?



## richiev (Feb 7, 2020)

I have two grapevines growing in my basement. They have been doing very well, but yesterday I noticed a few small holes in two leafs. could someone identify what they might be from ,and what action I might take?


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## Collie Flowers farm (Feb 7, 2020)

Hard to say, could be nitrogen or phosphorus deficiency, or just damaged by something. 
Probably just need to keep an eye on them for now rather than try and correct.
What's the growing medium??


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## richiev (Feb 7, 2020)

Collie Flowers farm said:


> Hard to say, could be nitrogen or phosphorus deficiency, or just damaged by something.
> Probably just need to keep an eye on them for now rather than try and correct.
> What's the growing medium??



It's a potting soil that contains, composted manure, peat humus, and perlite.


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## efBobby (Feb 11, 2020)

What's the plant variety?

Off hand I do not recognize the pattern on the holes. Perhaps it just got nicked when the leaf was in bud stage?


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## richiev (Feb 11, 2020)

efBobby said:


> What's the plant variety?
> 
> Off hand I do not recognize the pattern on the holes. Perhaps it just got nicked when the leaf was in bud stage?



Golden Muscato


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## efBobby (Feb 13, 2020)

Hmph, I was thinking it looked like a riparia, lol.

No further leaf degradation?


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## richiev (Feb 14, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Hmph, I was thinking it looked like a riparia, lol.
> 
> No further leaf degradation?



Nothing so far. If I do spot anything, I may spray them with Neem oil. Put them under a grow light, the 1st. of January. Only because all the other dormant plants purchased from Stark Bros. died. Since, I have purchased plants from Double A.Vineyards. These two plants have grown just over 4'. Soon they will out grown my basement ceiling height.


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## efBobby (Feb 15, 2020)

Good to know about the stark bros plants. I been gambling with private parties but with good luck so far.

Only one that kinda stumbled out of the gate was a dwarf Riesling but it was my fault. It sAt in the packaging for a couple extra days then I put it in my normal grow chamber. I noticed it did poorly and after some reading discovered it is a cool loving grape. So it sat in the cooler chamber for nearly a month with 1 leaf. 

Turns out it was in transplant recovery mode putting down roots like crazy then when it was satisfied started to produce explosive, bushy growth up top. 

Only other one I rcd that was seriously questionable was a set of vines from Portugal. They looked like 3 mummies in a bag. Lol. Apparently when dormant they can survive being dried out a little.

Took a couple vine cuttings and began my treatments. All the cuttings have foliage and one of the 3 is very close to bud burst. Buds are green and white.

Other 2 following close behind with light brown fuzzy buds starting to swell. 

I am still in shock they are doing so well! Lol

Anyway moral of the story if they look suspicious ALWAYS take cuttings even if it's just a 2 node. 

And revive immediately bc there are too many unknowns. How long has it been sitting, what did it get exposed to between origin and destination? Mainly in reference to temp swings bc if it's enough temp swing for the right duration the vine will start to awaken but still look asleep then if you try to put it back into dormancy will most likely end it. 

As to your plight of vines getting too big too soon if there is such a thing. I say take some green cuttings for one to have jic the mother meets trade tragedy and 2 to multiply your interest. 

If you end up with too many, well great time to attempt to trade or sell! In my opinion.


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## richiev (Feb 16, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Good to know about the stark bros plants. I been gambling with private parties but with good luck so far.
> 
> Only one that kinda stumbled out of the gate was a dwarf Riesling but it was my fault. It sAt in the packaging for a couple extra days then I put it in my normal grow chamber. I noticed it did poorly and after some reading discovered it is a cool loving grape. So it sat in the cooler chamber for nearly a month with 1 leaf.
> 
> ...



Would you post a picture of your grow chamber ? Thanks


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## efBobby (Feb 17, 2020)

Sure but in the spirit of most gardeners everything has been recycled and repurposed so it isn't pretty but most effective!

Pictured first 2 are upper level, cuttings, hot zone, third is of the flame. Humidity is very high turning the grape into an air plant popping off roots into thin air which is nice. Little longer and I can cut off rooted plants! lol last pic is for fully rooted plants/cooler zone.

Anyway it uses fog propagation. The ambient air in the chamber is hot and dry. The foggers are in a reservoir, there is a duct that runs to the chamber and a fan that draws in ambient air and blows the fog through the duct. 

The hot ambient and the cool fog mesh to evaporate very quickly so there is no stagnant air and not much standing water. The media is a high sand mix so any surface moisture is quickly evacuated meaning no mold/fungi despite the humidity.

There is a small secondary fan that circulates fog to the rest of the chamber but the majority of it transpirates in that one area by design keeping the cuttings from drying out and warm enough to form callouses


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## efBobby (Feb 17, 2020)

Ps it works great for dormant cuttings but kinda so so for green cuttings.

I am close to 100% on strike rates now just need to get that rate to apply to green cuttings and I'll be set!

For the propagation setup there is a step process. There is a smaller pot in front that temp wise is cooler but is right next to the fog duct. There lies the newly introduced cuttings.....once they produce foliage they get moved to the bigger lot which is hotter to induce callousing and roots. 

From there gets moved sideways to further develop roots and eventually down to the cooler setup which is all blues for vegetative growth and cooler temps although some plants can go straight to the lower level after rooting if they are a cooler loving variety such as Riesling.


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## richiev (Feb 17, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Ps it works great for dormant cuttings but kinda so so for green cuttings.
> 
> I am close to 100% on strike rates now just need to get that rate to apply to green cuttings and I'll be set!
> 
> ...



On a whim I took some cuttings from a friends vines. Let then soak in water for several days, then put them in potting soil. They have been in there now for about 45 days, and nothing seems to be happening. They are still alive thought. I checked and the cambium is still green. There may still be hope? I should set up a chamber something like yours. What are you using for a fogger. do you run it 24/7, and by a flame, do you mean a heat source ? Would you mind giving me a little more instructions ? They look like there doing great, and it looks for sure you know what your doing.


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## Collie Flowers farm (Feb 17, 2020)

richiev said:


> View attachment 58833
> 
> 
> On a whim I took some cuttings from a friends vines. Let then soak in water for several days, then put them in potting soil. They have been in there now for about 45 days, and nothing seems to be happening. They are still alive thought. I checked and the cambium is still green. There may still be hope? I should set up a chamber something like yours. What are you using for a fogger. do you run it 24/7, and by a flame, do you mean a heat source ? Would you mind giving me a little more instructions ? They look like there doing great, and it looks for sure you know what your doing.



On mine, the 101-14 took about 3weeks for bud break, Brianna only 2 weeks, but the shiraz took much much longer. These were just cuttings stuck in potting soil, nothing fancy...
Thinking that it's a variety thing with vines that have either late or early bud break??


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## richiev (Feb 17, 2020)

Collie Flowers farm said:


> On mine, the 101-14 took about 3weeks for bud break, Brianna only 2 weeks, but the shiraz took much much longer. These were just cuttings stuck in potting soil, nothing fancy...
> Thinking that it's a variety thing with vines that have either late or early bud break??



These are Frontenac Gris. First I soaked them for a few days, then put them into potting soil. I have a grow light over them. I thought maybe they were dead, the tops are dried out. I pulled one out of the soil and, scraped it with my pocket knife. I was surprised to find it was still green. What temp. did you keep your at?


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## efBobby (Feb 18, 2020)

Looks like you may need to increase humidity for sure! Oh sorry flame as in red flame. A seedless table grape. That is what is pictured growing roots into thin air, lol.

Temp, I read it has to be high 70's to get the cuttings to form callouses but after you have callouses there is much more leeway as far as temp it requires to form roots but from what I have seen hotter the better.

I remember once I was cleaning a cutting and the hot water I was using actually causes the callous to swell and produce a root in real time. Kinda wild looking.

But it seems like you need help earlier in the process. With cuttings in general I look at it as kind of a race to root it before it becomes unviable.

To my knowledge dormant grape cuttings do not imbibe any fluids so with that knowledge you must get it to utilize the fluids it has inside of itself before the fluids are either used up to maintain itself or they evaporate.

Generally failure results from the second reason. The fluids transpire out of the cutting before achieving what they need to inside the cutting.

THE TAKEAWAY: running as high humidity as possible without fungal growth more or less stops or slows down the rate at which the cutting loses its fluids. Giving it time to produce foliage and ultimately callouses then roots.

aka like any type of transfer if it is more dry outside than inside the cutting then the fluids will try to push their way out. Since all the atmosphere outside is working against you trying to suck out that moisture/it is acting like a really dry sponge or to best visualize like burying the cutting entirely in dried rice.

If it is more wet outside than inside then you might actually be able to imbibe fluids but that's an experiment for another day where i would actually have to remove a strip of bark.

Whether a cutting is easy or difficult generally depends on vigor and the bark. The more loose the bark the faster it will lose fluids. The slower the variety grows the more important every little micro drop of fluid it has becomes.

I would try to get humidity as high and constant as possible initially to get that foliage....once you get that foliage humidity is a little less important then the importance shifts to callouses which temp and humidity become most important. Also once you have foliage you generally want to move a little away from the humidity source bc too much moisture can actually degrade the plant's green tissues.

But it seems like your hurdle may be the first one. Getting the buds to drop their shielding. Which is a good thing and a sign that it wants more humidity bc once the shielding is dropped the bud itself becomes a leak in fluids to the atmosphere.

THE TAKEAWAY: try to maintain a constant level of humidity, light and heat. Generally the low side of heat and light since the brighter it is induces more heat via greenhouse effect and the hotter it is the faster things evaporate.

THE TAKEAWAY PT2: what I discovered works best for me is if I receive a cutting that is fully shielded my goals shift to diffused light and heat with a constant humidity.......my secret I discovered.....a simple ziplock bag! Lol. I will soak the cutting up to 12-24 hours depending on the cuttings appearance and then place it into the bag(don't add water despite the temptation! TOO MUCH WATER WILL ALL BUT GUARANTEE FUNGAL GROWTH AND MOST CERTAINTLY KILL YOUR CUTTING), seal it and place it outside the grow chamber entirely! So it receives minimum heat and light and the ziplock bag will ensure the humidity is constant! It will take a few days but the cutting will drop its shielding to reveal a tan, fuzzy bud. If it has only been a few days I'll leave it in the bag until I see the bud swell and start to change to white then green but you can elect to take it out after it starts to swell or even after it has dropped its shielding. Just depends on how long it had to sit in there bc after a certain amount of time the humidity will begin to work against you. Generally 12-14 days is my upper most limit but i have seen it drop its shielding in as little as 3!

If the limit needs to be exceeded I would cleanse the cutting with 80% diluted rubbing alcohol, re soak and rebag with a new bag. It's just easier to use a new bag vs sterilizing the old one. But this very rarely becomes a necessity.

This should get you going. There is more than one path to a destination so feel free to experiment and use what works best FOR YOU!

A caveat to my setup is with the heat; if that reservoir goes dry aka no more humidity I've got maybe 48 hours before everything in that foggy area is uselessly dead or even worse alive but unable to do anything useful but die slowly! 

Hopefully I have armed you with the knowledge in the form of setting your initial goals to successfully get those cuttings going! The foggers are actually a very inexpensive pond fogger purchased off eBay. For my setup it takes 2, for a smaller one just 1. The fogger, float and power supply is only $30 shipped! All the perks and none of the hassles or expense of mist propagation or hydroponics  aka the ultrasonic fogger burns off the bacteria so even if the reservoir is filthy with algae the fog is clean! 

The blow through portion of the setup was born out of necessity but ended up being w happy accident! I could and did use fans as suction to more precisely deliver the fog but fog and electrical stuff doesn't play nice at all.

The more sensitive electronics suffer from fast corrosion and unsealed stuff will get burned out through the fog accumulating and bridging connections it's not supposed to. The fan I use is an a/c fan that was given to me by a nursery owner. So use a/c! It's less complicated just a transformer and a motor!

But even using that as suction would rust the bearings in the fan. 

Hope this helps!


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## efBobby (Feb 18, 2020)

Ps more specific advice if you plan to bag or simply try to get the cuttings to perform. 45 days is ahem pushing it.

If they are 3 node cuttings

Step 1

identify the best bud on the stick. If it's a middle, cut the top off, a top, cut the bottom off so you have a 2 node and a 1 node cutting. Keep the 1 node; miracles happen all the time in the plant world! Now you are recouping by 2 ways: one focusing your efforts on the best bud(cut off the other bud on the 2 node stick) which is most likely where the remaining fluids have colonized aka the plant itself makes choices too! And 2 you are doubling your active cuttings aka playing up the numbers!

Step 2

Cut a small sliver off your bottom most and top most cuttings(whichever one has been in the dirt) to assess its health done by observing color and non-pith to pith tissue. Also you want to reopen the wounds.

Step 3

Re-soak for half a day. Hopefully the new wounds will allow even a small amount of fluids in.

Step 4

Gently dry off a small area of bark around all of your wounds and apply a small dab of grafting wax if you have it candle wax of you do not as to seal the new wounds to keep fluids inside. Also applicable for long term storage but generally not necessary for general rooting.

Step 5

put "new" cuttings into a setup revision of your own devising. If they fail do not fret they were just cuttings and you did not really kill anything.

Step 6

Bring your friend some sort of good will gesture(bottle of wine or whatever) and ply for more cuttings. Aka no one likes a worrisome beggar; you can get the first one for free but after that best to use the unspoken system in order to keep the good will.....good!

Exception being if you made any sort of promise ahead of time in exchange for the cuttings but even then the gesture can't hurt!

Hope this specifically helps!


P.s. Those green cutting look rough. I would wager that part of the bottoms are dead. I'm not a green cutting expert yet and maybe someone else more skilled with rooting them can chime in.

Does green wood imbibe water?

Based off what I see, pull and cut off anything discolored, dip in hormone and maybe employ a dome of some sort(top cut off a water bottle maybe?) with a few holes in it to circulate air. The green wood is way more sensitive since it has no bark to protect it; it transpires fluid much faster!

Not all bad, green wood is generally more vigorous and you don't have to worry about budding or foliage so a trade off really.

Some grape varieties have a drooping tip but generally speaking any type of drooping, green vegetation is indicative that it is dehydrating and wilting. Aka not enough fluid to inflate the stalk enough to hold its shape. With grapes and most plants in general their goal is to get to the sun so generally the tips will be as tall and straight as possible only exception being the top bud which may be covered by a leaf to protect it from sunburn.

Edit: as why it craves the sun....sunlight itself is the result of the release of energy from thermal fusion and all life needs energy! I'm not a scientist but if I had to guess I would say the plant uses the sunlight in order create some sort of chemical to break down the nutrients it has collected in its roots(kinda like a chemical fission) the result of which is the energy it uses to live. I could have it backwards and it uses the light to fuse the nutrients it has collected......base point being the nutrients are useless without the catalyst(be it a bonding catalyst or a breaking catalyst but if I had to guess I'd say the catalyst is water or more importantly it's hydrogen content plus whatever the hell it has photo synthesized from the sun!)


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 18, 2020)

Fun project, , , , Plant rooting hormone helps.
Rooting seems to have some seasonality, in the Midwest it works faster in mid March to April, , basically when the buds are ready to swell.
In May I have had extra cuttings in a bucket of water root by themselves.


richiev said:


> These are Frontenac Gris. First I soaked them for a few days, then put them into potting soil. I have a grow light over them. I thought maybe they were dead, the tops are dried out. I pulled one out of the soil and, scraped it with my pocket knife. I was surprised to find it was still green. What temp. did you keep your at?


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## richiev (Feb 18, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Ps more specific advice if you plan to bag or simply try to get the cuttings to perform. 45 days is ahem pushing it.
> 
> If they are 3 node cuttings
> 
> ...



Thank You, Your reply is very helpful.


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## efBobby (Feb 18, 2020)

Np. I just recently developed everything so I have been bagging older cuttings that initially performed poorly with some success.

Even getting 1 to perform is great considering they were originally slated for the trash. But you can tell they are/were poor simply be they are all 1 nodes.

So far out of a lot of 25 scraps these 4 have some potential with one of them being developed enough to go back to the grow chamber to be rooted.

Right now it is soaking


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## efBobby (Feb 18, 2020)

Here are 4 cuttings of moon drops rcd 3 days ago.

First one is in the grow chamber and will most likely produce foliage by this time tomorrow.

Other 3 are still bagged with the middle one being further developed. It should be ready for grow chamber in about 48h.

Other 2 a bit longer but still moving along. Red wax wasn't me/came that way. But just wanted to illustrate how the buds come out of their shielding and make their way to second stage which is foliage.

Even if none of the other stuff I do suits you. Definitely consider the ziplock bagging. Weighing how much you get out of them vs the amount of effort put in them its a slam dunk!

Without the ziplock 1-3 of them may not have been viable.


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## Collie Flowers farm (Feb 18, 2020)

richiev said:


> These are Frontenac Gris. First I soaked them for a few days, then put them into potting soil. I have a grow light over them. I thought maybe they were dead, the tops are dried out. I pulled one out of the soil and, scraped it with my pocket knife. I was surprised to find it was still green. What temp. did you keep your at?



Mine have been at 79F and 60% rh. 
I keep the soil pretty moist too for starters..


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## richiev (Feb 20, 2020)

I reported previously, that the vines I have growing in my basement developed some small holes, but were growing at a fast pace. Today I noticed some small brown spots, also

their growth has seem to come to a stand still.

Also when I moved the soil a vey small insect came flying out.


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## richiev (Feb 20, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Ps more specific advice if you plan to bag or simply try to get the cuttings to perform. 45 days is ahem pushing it.
> 
> If they are 3 node cuttings
> 
> ...



Following your instructions by the steps.
View attachment 58953


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## efBobby (Feb 20, 2020)

Hmmmm....brown spots most likely frass. Since they are so widespread I recommend cutting the leaf off and trashing it.

Also there could be eggs on the leaf. 

The frass could encourage some nasty growth to take hold.

The flying insect? Was it small and black like a gnat or white/silver? 

Small black most likely fungus gnat. Are your vines in a peat heavy mix?

They are not usually destructive until their numbers get really high then they munch roots but typically eat other stuff "decaying plant matter" first. The wet peat is their breeding ground where they pupate into gnats.

If they are white/silver then most likely whitefly which can do more damage. 

Wouldn't panick yet. Good shot of sevin should stop em cold.

Inspect foliage/buds/stalks for eggs; however if your vines are truly growing fast do not confuse grape pearls for eggs. 

There isn't really a good explanation for em that I know of but when a vine is legit happy you will see these translucent round "pearls" on the plant mainly on the vine stalks. 

I remember I was like wtf kinda egg is it but it isn't an egg but sap that for some reason seeps out of the vine and hardens.

Step 1:

Inspect for spots and remove foliage either entirely or partially

Step 2: inspect for eggs and do the same except for buds and first leaf.

Step 3: inspect media for tiny white worms or anything alive.

Step 4: hit the leaves, buds, vines with some liquid sevin. Don't have any? Use one of those measuring spoons that come with fertilizers one big scoop of powder in half a gallon jug, add hot water and shake vigorously.

Now u have liquid sevin. Water plant to get a precoat on the roots so the sevin either won't stick or dilute. Drench plant and media. Wait a couple hours and water the media where the roots are.

Step 5:

Hit the foliage, buds and stalks once a day for 7 days. Only hit the media of you see more flies. 

Intent is to break the life cycle since the foliage is either or both food and nursery.

By doing this the surviving population will die out but if you wanna hit em harder hit the media Every 3 days.

Doesn't sound like your infestation is bad so you are in a good place.


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## efBobby (Feb 20, 2020)

Cuttings looking like they might do something now. Not out of the woods yet but they seem to be dropping the shielding. Good work!


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## efBobby (Feb 20, 2020)

Ps not all bugs are bad. If you get some little gray bugs that looks like tiny rice grains and jump when you disturb them they are spring tails and feast exclusively on "dead ripe" plant matter.

Generally the stuff that will encourage fungal growth. Aka they do not eat any living plant matter. They are easy to spot when you water. Try to save some and separate before the tactical nukes come out!


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## efBobby (Feb 20, 2020)

After this has past consider amending your mix to have less plant matter in it. Aka less peat usually. 

Idk what your mix is now but the one I like so far is 66% sand, 14% perlite, 10% vermiculite, 6% peat, 4% loam(mud) or silt(sandy mud)...just a handful. Stuff has micronutrients in it grapes adore.

Taken from outside, hit with boiling water to sterilize. 

If your humidity is lower perhaps use the following: 60% sand, 14% vermiculite, 10% peat, 10% perlite and 6% loam preferably silt. 

The vermiculite acts as a substitute for peat in regards to holding water but not a complete substitute since verm has no nutritional value.

Perhaps try to extract the root ball with media in tact if the media is sticky, add new media and after a few waterings will intermingle. If the mix is fluffy then plug the drain holes and fill the pot up with water, then extract plant gently. 

Dump contents, add new media, fill up pot with water and gently insert plant.

The first method is preferred bc the plant will pout bc you are asking it's roots to adapt to new soil aka keeping some of the old soil in the middle softens that shock by a large margin and when the roots expand will adapt to the new media without the pouting.

That the term I use for drooping/wilting btw but not in the dire straight sense but the plant is adapting, will stop growing, look like shit but recover fully sense. Lol


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## richiev (Feb 21, 2020)

efBobby said:


> After this has past consider amending your mix to have less plant matter in it. Aka less peat usually.
> 
> Idk what your mix is now but the one I like so far is 66% sand, 14% perlite, 10% vermiculite, 6% peat, 4% loam(mud) or silt(sandy mud)...just a handful. Stuff has micronutrients in it grapes adore.
> 
> ...



The bugs are very small black gnat looking. I don't know what the soil composition is. I bought it as an organic potting mix. also I have the cutting in a zip lock bag, and experimenting with a small fogger, and a plastic dome. How deep do the cuttings need to be placed into the soil. I was thinking I could sterilize some soil by putting it in the oven, if I didn't have to put them to deep. Is this what you meant by small crystals growing on the vines? 

[/ATTACH]


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## efBobby (Feb 22, 2020)

I couldn't be sure from the first pic but the second and third one yes those are grape pearls.

Although you may have inadvertently photoed a pest! lol!

On the first pic, the vine to the left. There aren't any pearls on it but I see something small and yellow seemingly suspended from one of the hairs on the vine.....first inclination is possibly an adult spider mite?

Not related to your other pest which is definitely fungus gnat!

If your mix is black then yes it has peat and/or decaying plant matter in it. I would definitely work to amend it. With the presence of fungus gnats also points to it may be too wet.

Which is a slippery slope with grapes. More sand helps fool proof the mix since it's nearly impossible to over water it! lol!

Do you have any type of fan with your dome or have you aerated it by adding holes?

Air movement is paramount with the higher humidity. For the most part your cuttings are protected but even that will not last. Once you get spore growth it's difficult to eradicate.

I have experience with lowland tropicals so I'm pretty comfy with using high 90's rh setups. That being said it isn't too big of a deal with cuttings bc they have no roots or vegetation yet. Sole objective being to keep the sap it has inside of it so it can be used to make foliage and roots.

Extra tips

Some cuttings Will produce flowers; soon as you can get to the stalk cut them off! They do this bc that's what the bud was already setup to do before the vine was chopped off the plant.

Are you using rooting hormone? Since the cuttings are distressed I highly recommend it! I bought a little can of powder from a retail store a year ago for like $5 so they can most likely be sourced online for half that.

It will promote callousing and seal the wound. Callousing is the overall main objective bc then you are all but guaranteed roots!

On the cuttings, since they aren't fresh I would bury them up to the bottom of whichever node is active.


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## efBobby (Feb 22, 2020)

These are better illustrations but the foggers are inside that container. Ducted to the chamber on 1 side and a high volume a/c fan on the other.

There is a much smaller d/c fan inside that serves to evacuate any excess fog into the rest of the grow areas as a little added boost but bear in mind for the other areas the rh is much lower.

Third pic is of that moon drop cutting with the wax top. 48h later and foliage, right on schedule! 

Notice I have moved it further away from the front of the duct.

Also notice the brightness of the rooting chamber.  Maybe a little overkill but fi I needed roots yesterday! Lol

Rooting chamber is a 2800/6400k combo then transitions left to a 4k/6400k combo and to the lower level which is all 6400k.

Edit: the fixture also churns out the heat too so win/win bc it's cold asab right now! 

Oh it also has a reflector and I used seran wrap to shield the bulbs and more importantly the ballasts from the fog!


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## richiev (Feb 22, 2020)

Oh Boy!! spider mites. Will Neem oil work, or should I just start with the big guns(Sevin). Yes the soil does stay moist, something I have been trying to figure a way out of. I do have some root hormones for the next time I set the cuttings in soil. They have been in a zip lock now for about 36 hrs. I can't see any changes, but then again, I didn't see the spider mites. Zees' what's it going to be like when I get my vines from Double A and plant them outdoors in a real environment?
I have been experimenting with a small grow chamber. I can get it up to 100% RH. then control it with two adjustable vents on the top. Now I'm working on temp.


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## efBobby (Feb 24, 2020)

I can't say for certain it's a spider mite but appears to be something. Could just be debris.

Far as the ziplock check once every 3 days for any signs of budding and for any type of fungi/mold.

Regarding pesticide if you go, go for the throat! Lol!

Amidst the many caveats of a grow room one of the benefits is you can go as hard as you want on pesticide in my opinion.

One of the main reasons broad spectrum pesticide use is "discouraged" are the detrimental affects to the good insects and possibly the wild life.....none of which exist in your basement. 

Any residuals can serve a dual purpose as a deterrent to any bug wanting to take up residence! Lol!

I used to have a hygrometer I think it is called but now I just go my the water droplets on the side! Lol!

Far as temps once your active cuttings are deposited into the grow chamber, high 70's is optimal to my knowledge but ambient air and soil temps are not the same so if you aren't heating the soil then will seek to have a hotter air temperature which is the route I am taking bc I don't have any mats! Lol.

But it's all relative. Keeping in mind the humidity keeps the excess heat in check by ensuring the cuttings do not dehydrate. Vice versa the heat keeps the excess humidity in check by quickly evaporating it. The high sand content keeps the high amount of surface run off in check by not holding much if any moisture.

Crap you learn through trial and error! Lol! So a final word of caution with high rh. Make sure you have something in place to evaporate it and or transfer it out! 

It's not as important with active but un-bud-broken cuttings but once you get foliage seek to evaporate it off the leaves and roots if you plan on growing what you root in the same pot. 

Personally I prefer to transfer them out as soon as I see the first signs of rooting. As seen in the pics the crazy high rh is for the overall rooting process. The places they grow have much less. Approx high 60 to low 70 rh.

I had a couple heat mats but they quietly died. I'm guessing they must have a thermal fuse in them. If I get the time I will perform a post mortem bc I can easily repair them if it is just a fuse.

I will get some for next winter...no point now! lol. Also with the relativity factor adding a heat mat changes it all. Meaning I'd have to amend my media to hold more water. 

The old axiom is definitely true here "if it ain't broke; don't fix it". It's a little too late for me to experiment. I prefer to do that in the beginning of the cool down so I only have a small control group of test subjects to try stuff out on and my high value vegetation can still remain outside but covered if need be until I am satisfied!


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## efBobby (Feb 24, 2020)

1 important thing I forgot to mention. Generally I will check on my bagged cuttings every 3 days.
If there is no progress then I will soak them again in warm water for a couple hours then rebag. 

After 21 days if there is no progress I will go for broke and put it/them in the chamber anyway.


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## richiev (Feb 29, 2020)

efBobby said:


> 1 important thing I forgot to mention. Generally I will check on my bagged cuttings every 3 days.
> If there is no progress then I will soak them again in warm water for a couple hours then rebag.
> 
> After 21 days if there is no progress I will go for broke and put it/them in the chamber anyway.



Making progress!! Sorry hard to see. Bad camera ability's.


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## efBobby (Mar 1, 2020)

On the contrary the progress is easy to see! They are coloring up nicely! Going from tan to white and finally to green! 

Nice work!


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## efBobby (Mar 1, 2020)

They should start forming leaves in 3-5 days. 

What's the temp in there?


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## richiev (Mar 1, 2020)

efBobby said:


> They should start forming leaves in 3-5 days.
> 
> What's the temp in there?



Temp. is at 80*, and RH is at 75%. They are starting to turn green.


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## efBobby (Mar 2, 2020)

Nice! You got this! 

Will be interesting to see what tweaks you come up with as you progress. Keep us all posted!


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## richiev (Mar 3, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Nice! You got this!
> 
> Will be interesting to see what tweaks you come up with as you progress. Keep us all posted!



Thank You, I have learned much from you in the past month. This would not have been possible without your help.

This is my new chamber,small but works well.








How long should I wait before looking for roots,and transfering to a larger pot? Is there a tell tale sign, Maybe size of leafs? Should I be giving them fertilizer now ? Thanks.


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## efBobby (Mar 4, 2020)

They haven't rooted yet so fertS will do more harm than good.

Not sure I can accurately answer this since the number of variables is high but generally I check when I water then, I separate the ones that have callouses from the ones that do not but once you get callouses generally 3-5 days and you will have roots.

I'd wait a while before applying any ferts. Let the roots get big enough en mass and a little more acclimated but maybe 30 days after roots; maybe longer I'm not 100% but basically if the plant "looks established" then go for it!


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## richiev (Mar 5, 2020)

efBobby said:


> They haven't rooted yet so fertS will do more harm than good.
> 
> Not sure I can accurately answer this since the number of variables is high but generally I check when I water then, I separate the ones that have callouses from the ones that do not but once you get callouses generally 3-5 days and you will have roots.
> 
> I'd wait a while before applying any ferts. Let the roots get big enough en mass and a little more acclimated but maybe 30 days after roots; maybe longer I'm not 100% but basically if the plant "looks established" then go for it!



Forgot to ask. When should I remove the dome?


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## efBobby (Mar 6, 2020)

Hmmm you may have to experiment to find the right time but for starters let's say 4 days after you transplant/root and go from there


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## richiev (Mar 7, 2020)

Bad news,last night. I Returned home about 11pm.,and found cuttings covered in white fuzz. I removed the dome,and tried to air them out. Didn't know much else to do, so I made up a spray of baking soda ,water, and a very little dish soap. Gave them a spray. Hope I didn't hurt them further. These are the worst of the lot.



Then to top it off.I found two critters . This one sunning under my light. May be a type of mexican beetle ??
,and this one drowned in the water dish under one of the planters.


Looks like a squash bug ??


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## sour_grapes (Mar 7, 2020)

The second sure appears to be a marmorated stink bug. Isn't the first just an Asian ladybeetle?


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## efBobby (Mar 7, 2020)

Agreed/beat me to it. Hope you didn't kill the first one. Lady bugs eat aphids and aphid eggs. They are a welcome guest. 

Far as your other issue air flow is essential open up your breathing holes more. 

Generally what works best for me is "a little dip" mix a solution 9 parts water and 1 part bleach. Dip em, swirl em for about 5 sec, remove wait 30 seconds then dip or rinse off with water. 

It's hard to say this early on if they were fatally injured but if you can create a second dome please do so and move the ones which seem unaffected into it as soon as u can. 

Spores are some nasty stuff but that is your standard operating procedure whenever you find some sort of contagion is to separate the ones not affected to avoid total loss.

While you are dipping and soaking use that opportunity to sterilize the other one. Either microwave or boiling water should work for your media and the same dipping solution for the dome.


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## efBobby (Mar 7, 2020)

Edit: do complete dip for affected ones use something small to manually clean unaffected ones but avoid foliage/bud. Even at 10% it may still burn the foliage but will be necessary if the spores are in the bud.

Edit: add something like a small piece of bamboo to act as shelter, add a drop or 2 of honey for sustenance and a small dish with some rocks in it to act as a pool/drinking fountain. If possible bury it to ground level and insert the lady bug  .....actually do that in one of your other pots with the muscats and insert lady bug there


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## efBobby (Mar 7, 2020)

Lady bug is predacious and will kill anything that is smaller but in absence or meat will get sustenance from sugars. If you do not have any honey on hand then any squished fruit should do.


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## richiev (Mar 7, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Lady bug is predacious and will kill anything that is smaller but in absence or meat will get sustenance from sugars. If you do not have any honey on hand then any squished fruit should do.



Not doubting your word, but I thought Lady Bugs were a more red color? Lady bug was DOA.


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## richiev (Mar 7, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> The second sure appears to be a marmorated stink bug. Isn't the first just an Asian ladybeetle?



Probably is a stink bug, Squash bugs usually have a black marking on their back. Do you think they are coming from the soil ?


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## efBobby (Mar 7, 2020)

Lady bugs are a variety of colors. Perhaps the native ones are just red. Allegedly the Asian lady beetles are more aggressive, sometimes they bite humans tho.

It's hard to say but if you have been getting temp swings/warm days outside then that is most likely where they came from but forget the bugs and get that stuff quarantined!

With an indoor setup fungi will wreck your life. When I grew tropicals. If I seen fuzz I'd just amputate; if I seen it on the roots then to the trash can. It wasn't worth the risk to the others to try to save it. Better yet put the affected dome and plants far away from everything else!


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## efBobby (Mar 7, 2020)

Spores are like seeds they can remain dormant for months....waiting


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## richiev (Mar 8, 2020)

efBobby said:


> Spores are like seeds they can remain dormant for months....waiting



Ok! Soil,dome,and trays have been sterilized. Cuttings have been disinfected as your instructions.Vents on dome are opened 100%. Maintaining a RH factor of 60%. I can control this my either closing vents or drilling more holes. What do you suggest? Also found this on soil side of cuttings when I removed them.




Hard to tell in photo,but this is all white. Also found this on several plants.


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## efBobby (Mar 8, 2020)

And you separated the good ones from the bad ones?

If possible separate both of them from you muscats. Depending on the type of fungi it can attack roots.

Don't think it's your fault tho; seems likely the bug corpses is what initiated the contamination.

The white you are seeing are callouses! Yay! That's the last step before getting roots.

I hope they are on your healthy cuttings. Sometimes you can make them spontaneously grow a little bit of root tissue by running hot water over them not that I suggest it.

After callous generally 3-5 days and you will have a few fledgling roots.


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