# 2022 Spring Ferment (All Frozen Must)



## crushday (Mar 5, 2022)

I decided to do another spring ferment this year. 

Rattlesnake Hills Malbec Drum (Brix: 24.6, pH:3.36, TA: .54), *Bravo*
Lodi Old Vine Zinfandel Drum (Brix: 23.6, pH:3.75, TA: .75), *Avante*
Lodi Old Vine Zinfandel Drum (Brix: 23.6, pH:3.75, TA: .75), *Avante*
Knights Valley Cabernet Sauvignon 12 buckets (Brix: 29.1, pH: 3.93, TA: .52), *Avante* (add 0.75 gallons of water per pail?)
Knights Valley Syrah 4 buckets (Brix: 28.1, pH: 3.57, TA: 6.26), *Bravo* (add 0.66 gallons of water per pail?)
Knights Valley Cabernet Sauvignon 4 buckets (Brix: 29.1, pH: 3.93, TA: .52), *Bravo* (add 0.75 gallons of water per pail?)
Zinfandel/Malbec/Syrah/Cabernet Port, *Avante* (fortified with grape brandy)
Items 1-4 will be fermented as is. Items 5/6 will be fermented together and will eventually become the 2022 Synergistic blend. I’ve been fermenting 50/50 of something for this annual blend. Item 7 will be a Port made from 1 gallon from each from the Malbec and Cabernet, 0.5 gallon from the Syrah and 1.5 gallons from the Zin.

I need to lower the pH of the Zin (I think).
I need to lower the Brix of both the Syrah and Cab with acidulated water AND lower the pH.

Here are my calculations for the adjustments:

Need to acidulate the water: 22.4 TA per gallon of water

Zin 50x.7=35g (132.5Lx4 [to lower .4 pH] = 530gm* per drum
Cab 80x.6=48g (181.7Lx6 [to lower .6 pH] = 1090.2* / 16 = 68.13gm per pail)
Syrah 20x.6=12g (45.42Lx6 [to lower .6 pH] = 272.5* / 4 = 68.13gm per pail)


*From MoreWine: 1.0 g/L addition of Tartaric acid will increase the TA by about 1.0 g/L and will decrease the pH by 0.1 pH units.

I’m shooting for a starting pH of 3.3 knowing it will creep up during ferment to approx. 3.6 (is this sound?).

TA Needed:
336gm (acidulated water)
530gm per zin drum
1362.6gm for all buckets


Had to put 4 buckets in the back seating area inside the cab:


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## ChuckD (Mar 5, 2022)

I’m curious, how long does it take to thaw a drum of frozen must?


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## crushday (Mar 5, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I’m curious, how long does it take to thaw a drum of frozen must?


It’s a very good question and the answer is dependent on ambient temperatures.

One of the exceeding advantages of frozen must is the ability to perform a cold maceration (cold soak) to get things started. Because I want a cold maceration on this must, I’m setting the temperature inside my fermentation room at 60 degrees. At this temp, the drums won’t be fully thawed until Wednesday or Thursday next week or five to six days.

The pails, being smaller in volume, will naturally thaw quicker. To bring some parity, I don’t have the pails in a heated environment. Normal temps in my area are mid 40s highs and low 30s overnight at this time of year. My garage will kinda stay pretty steady between the low and high. I’m attempting to cause the buckets and the drums to thaw at the same speed. Rarely works exactly, however.

I’d be very happy making my adjustments next Thursday and pitching yeast Friday or Saturday.


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## ChuckD (Mar 5, 2022)

If you stacked the pails in tight clusters equal to the drum volumes and tarped them they would probably thaw at about the same rate.

I won’t have my own grapes for a few years so I’m thinking about buying some buckets to start working on my process. First I need to start tasting wines to see what kind I want to get. 

I assume you have a winery with those quantities?


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## crushday (Mar 5, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> If you stacked the pails in tight clusters equal to the drum volumes and tarped them they would probably thaw at about the same rate.
> 
> I won’t have my own grapes for a few years so I’m thinking about buying some buckets to start working on my process. First I need to start tasting wines to see what kind I want to get.
> 
> I assume you have a winery with those quantities?


Fair assumption, but no. I consume a modest quantity and give the rest away. Mostly to my family, employees and clients. 95% is carried away as gifts.


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## ChuckD (Mar 5, 2022)

crushday said:


> Fair assumption, but no. I consume a modest quantity and give the rest away. Mostly to my family, employees and clients. 95% is carried away as gifts.


Nice… I need to get better friends!


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## CDrew (Mar 5, 2022)

That is a lot of wine. Your acid and water adjustments *look* right but I did not re-run the calcs.

Subscribing to your thread!


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 6, 2022)

Should use RP-15 on that zin, but I want to hear how it turns out. Huge Zinfandel fan though I will add your zin has a surprisingly low brix especially for old vine my 2021 zin was sitting at 25 ish brix when picked and cold soaking brought it up to like 27.


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## Johnd (Mar 6, 2022)

crushday said:


> I decided to do another spring ferment this year.
> 
> 
> View attachment 85339


You have more energy than me!! I’ve still got ‘18 to bottle (out of the 60 gallon barrel, and in carboys, plus three leftover 18 carboys) and 19 to bottle (still in a 60 and a 30 gallon barrel). Haven’t imported grapes in two years………


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 6, 2022)

That's a big springtime project!

I am a relative beginner here but if it were my wine I'd be hesitant to make such a drastic change to pH/TA, particularly for the zinfandel. In that case TA is already fairly high, and targeting a .4 unit drop in pH will of course push it higher. Acidity might not change as much as you think during fermentation. Ideally, I'd do it stepwise - eg add half of what you think you need, then retest brix/pH after it's had time to mix in.

What brix are you targeting for that cab and syrah?


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## crushday (Mar 6, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Should use RP-15 on that zin, but I want to hear how it turns out. Huge Zinfandel fan though I will add your zin has a surprisingly low brix especially for old vine my 2021 zin was sitting at 25 ish brix when picked and cold soaking brought it up to like 27.


I appreciate the yeast suggestion and, I would typically use Rockpile. Avante is not a yeast I’ve used for Zin before but wanted to try it. I’ll have an empty 225 Frenchie soon that the Zin is going to take up residence in. 

Once everything is thawed, I‘ll check the Brix. What the lab got is more than likely different than what’s sitting here.


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## NorCal (Mar 6, 2022)

Nice kick-off to the new year! I’ve seen the pH of musts react differently to the same addition of tartaric. I’m assuming due to the buffering capacity of the solution and it can make a big swing if you hit a tipping point. I’ve added little at a time until I hit the point that I wanted.


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## crushday (Mar 6, 2022)

NorCal said:


> Nice kick-off to the new year! I’ve seen the pH of musts react differently to the same addition of tartaric. I’m assuming due to the buffering capacity of the solution and it can make a big swing if you hit a tipping point. I’ve added little at a time until I hit the point that I wanted.


NorCal, it’s a bit of a different subject but I wonder if we, as winemakers, make too much of manipulating the must/wine instead of just gladly accepting what nature presents us. This notion has been at the forefront of my thinking the last couple of days…

On the more conventional approach, I had never considered staggering the additions, rather choosing to rely on my early memories of helping my mother bake in the kitchen. If a cake recipe called for 2 cups of sugar, all 2 cups went in at the same time with no consideration of how that much sugar might interact with the other ingredients. Understandably, this illustration looses some relevance as no straight line of comparison can be drawn.

Perhaps I will acidulate the water and add the remaining TA in equal parts over five days at morning punch downs. Worth a try…


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## stickman (Mar 6, 2022)

I generally don't like using a rule of thumb for pH. I typically blend the batch and then pull off a 5gal pail, make any brix and pH adjustments to the pail, then use those numbers to scale up for the remainder of the batch. Just my opinion, but I would normally start between 3.5 and 3.6 pH, any lower than 3.5 and you risk the pH dropping further as the tartrates fall out near the end of primary.


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 6, 2022)

crushday said:


> NorCal, it’s a bit of a different subject but I wonder if we, as winemakers, make too much of manipulating the must/wine instead of just gladly accepting what nature presents us. This notion has been at the forefront of my thinking the last couple of days…



I agree to a certain degree, though there are cases (such as your very ripe cabernet) when we need to give nature a helping hand. And to build on your cake analogy - in that case, the ingredients are well defined, and one cup of sugar is likely to behave the same as the next. Grape must is a much more complex beast!


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## crushday (Mar 6, 2022)

stickman said:


> Just my opinion, but I would normally start between 3.5 and 3.6 pH, any lower than 3.5 and you risk the pH dropping further as the tartrates fall out near the end of primary.


Worse yet, the bottom of the bottle. Most casual wine drinkers have an unfounded fear of wine diamonds.

Stickman, your modified “pump over” system affords you the opportunity to isolate five gallons of wine for your adjustments. Unfortunately, my system isn’t as complex.


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## Tim3 (Mar 6, 2022)

Sounds like an awesome project you're starting! When I run the numbers, below is the water and acid additions I would likely make. These water additions will bring you to the upper end of what's acceptable for the posted varietals from an ABV perspective. The Cab, for example, would reduce brix to 26.5 for a final ABV of just over 15%. As Norcal stated, add half of the acid and retest. You're never going to end with a final PH of 3.6 for the Cab after MLF, and should be targeting a final PH of around 3.73.

1 - Malbec: No water or acid needed. 
2&3 - Zinfandel: No water needed. 210 grams of tartaric acid needed per drum.
4 - Cabernet Sauvignon: 1.34 liters (5.7 cups water) needed per pail. 33.4 grams of tartaric acid needed per pail. 
5 - Syrah: 1.1 liters (4.7 cups water) needed per pail. 17.8 grams of tartaric acid needed per pail.
6 - Cab Sauv: Same as 4 above.

When you combine the Syrah and Cab Sauvignon for the co-ferment, it might be helpful to post the Brix, PH, and TA, as the numbers might not combine to become a perfect average.


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## crushday (Mar 6, 2022)

BarrelMonkey said:


> That's a big springtime project!
> 
> I am a relative beginner here but if it were my wine I'd be hesitant to make such a drastic change to pH/TA, particularly for the zinfandel. In that case TA is already fairly high, and targeting a .4 unit drop in pH will of course push it higher. Acidity might not change as much as you think during fermentation. Ideally, I'd do it stepwise - eg add half of what you think you need, then retest brix/pH after it's had time to mix in.
> 
> What brix are you targeting for that cab and syrah?


Sorry, I missed this earlier…. And, thanks for the check. 

I’d like the finished wine to be 3.5-3.7 pH - might be unrealistically aspirational and maybe unnecessary. Nature vs nurture?

What’s driving me is my impression of high pH wine taking on a characteristic of fortified grape juice because of how “smooth” it is to drink. I know many factors affect this sensation on my palate but pH is certainly a contributor. Tannins being another chief…

Thankfully, I have several days to kick this around…


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## crushday (Mar 6, 2022)

Tim3 said:


> Sounds like an awesome project you're starting! When I run the numbers, below is the water and acid additions I would likely make. These water additions will bring you to the upper end of what's acceptable for the posted varietals from an ABV perspective. The Cab, for example, would reduce brix to 26.5 for a final ABV of just over 15%. As Norcal stated, add half of the acid and retest. You're never going to end with a final PH of 3.6 for the Cab after MLF, and should be targeting a final PH of around 3.73.
> 
> 1 - Malbec: No water or acid needed.
> 2&3 - Zinfandel: No water needed. 210 grams of tartaric acid needed per drum.
> ...


Hey, Tim3! Thanks for taking time to run the numbers on this project. Your post and suggestions within are the reason I love this forum. I appreciate it!

My friend, Mike Crews (WineGrapesDirect), suggests sacrificial tannins specifically on the Malbec. What say you?

Here's what he said, specifically: "The Malbec shouldn't need any adjustments, but personally I do think it needs an extra big tannin addition to balance out the fruit. So usually we do 7 grams tannin per 5 gallons must, but you could do up to 14 on the Malbec."


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## Tim3 (Mar 6, 2022)

You're welcome! I love the conversation this forum encourages. 

I almost always add FT Rouge to my red wine fermentations. So yes, I would add 56.3 grams to the Malbec drum, or 6.6 grams per 5 gallons must for the Malbec. Depending on the length of the cold soak and equipment to keep the fermentation low enough, I also might even recommend opti-red and enzymes.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 7, 2022)

crushday said:


> NorCal, it’s a bit of a different subject but I wonder if we, as winemakers, make too much of manipulating the must/wine instead of just gladly accepting what nature presents us. This notion has been at the forefront of my thinking the last couple of days…
> 
> On the more conventional approach, I had never considered staggering the additions, rather choosing to rely on my early memories of helping my mother bake in the kitchen. If a cake recipe called for 2 cups of sugar, all 2 cups went in at the same time with no consideration of how that much sugar might interact with the other ingredients. Understandably, this illustration looses some relevance as no straight line of comparison can be drawn.
> 
> Perhaps I will acidulate the water and add the remaining TA in equal parts over five days at morning punch downs. Worth a try…


I don’t feel that we do, I change what needs to be changed, if the acid is too high I reduce it. If it’s too low I add more It makes better wines.

Just like enzymes make better wines I’ve noticed much better tannin integration with enzymes. Less prone to being harsh and bitter.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 7, 2022)

crushday said:


> I wonder if we, as winemakers, make too much of manipulating the must/wine instead of just gladly accepting what nature presents us. This notion has been at the forefront of my thinking the last couple of days…


Neither extreme is the best choice -- as Oscar Wilde said, "Everything in moderation, including moderation.”

Nature's bounty "as is"? I correct extremes that will negatively affect the fermentation and/or final result.

Brix is the easy one -- if the brix is too low, a weak wine is produced that may not have a good shelf life. Too high? The wine is unpleasantly hot. Correcting brix is easy and has few unhappy side effects.

TA/pH? This is a tougher one -- if the values are way too high or low, adjusting makes sense, else the wine may not ferment or may not be shelf stable. Adjusting acid up and down makes sense if extremely off, either high or low.

On the other side of the coin, focusing on individual numbers to fine tune the wine leaves out too many critical factors that we are unable to understand, much less control. The lack of correlation between TA and pH is a good example.

My changes to your batches?

4, 5, 6: water back to 23.5 to 24.5 brix.
4, 6: reduce the pH a bit.

Post fermentation -- taste the wines. Add tartaric little by little over succeeding months, letting the acid integrate with the wine. Base additions upon taste, not a pH meter (the pH meter will not drink the wine).

Keep in mind that the enemy of "good" is not "bad", the true enemy is "better".


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## crushday (Mar 7, 2022)

@winemaker81 Bryan, super helpful information...

Thanks!


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## winemaker81 (Mar 7, 2022)

crushday said:


> Bryan, super helpful information...


How so? I realize my opinion regarding testing is not exactly mainstream.


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## crushday (Mar 9, 2022)

Quick update: I'll be pitching the yeast on all batches tonight, the last thing I do in the winery for the day. The Malbec is currently hovering around 58 degrees while the others are 60-62 - it's been a great cold soak. Since the Malbec is tucked in a corner of the fermenting room it's not getting the ambient heat like the others. Additionally, because of the size of the room and the number of units to ferment, everything is touching - side by side. Even after I pitch the yeast, it will take a couple days to really take off. I'm going to attempt to keep the ferment temps in the 70's hoping for a long 21 day primary. The weather is going to cooperate too as the lows this week dip into the mid 20s and highs in the 40s. 

Color is great on all (pictures later) and I did add EX-V on all except the Zinfandel. I omitted it on the Zin because my experience with that grape is the skins turn to mush because the variety is thin skinned and create a headache for me in about 21 days during the press. The color already is great even without.

I'll be punching by Friday...


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 10, 2022)

crushday said:


> Quick update: I'll be pitching the yeast on all batches tonight, the last thing I do in the winery for the day. The Malbec is currently hovering around 58 degrees while the others are 60-62 - it's been a great cold soak. Since the Malbec is tucked in a corner of the fermenting room it's not getting the ambient heat like the others. Additionally, because of the size of the room and the number of units to ferment, everything is touching - side by side. Even after I pitch the yeast, it will take a couple days to really take off. I'm going to attempt to keep the ferment temps in the 70's hoping for a long 21 day primary. The weather is going to cooperate too as the lows this week dip into the mid 20s and highs in the 40s.
> 
> Color is great on all (pictures later) and I did add EX-V on all except the Zinfandel. I omitted it on the Zin because my experience with that grape is the skins turn to mush because the variety is thin skinned and create a headache for me in about 21 days during the press. The color already is great even without.
> 
> I'll be punching by Friday...


Zinfandel does indeed have thin skins which is also why Zinfandel doesn’t tend to get very deep color, I use color pro as my enzyme on Zinfandel it helps with stabilizing and getting a bit more out of the skins but they weren’t too bad when I pressed last fall, Zinfandel is probably my favorite grape to work with because you can get a real broad spectrum of interesting flavors and aromas I’ve had zin that goes from barnyard to fruit candy on the spectrum.


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## crushday (Mar 10, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Zinfandel does indeed have thin skins which is also why Zinfandel doesn’t tend to get very deep color, I use color pro as my enzyme on Zinfandel it helps with stabilizing and getting a bit more out of the skins but they weren’t too bad when I pressed last fall, Zinfandel is probably my favorite grape to work with because you can get a real broad spectrum of interesting flavors and aromas I’ve had zin that goes from barnyard to fruit candy on the spectrum.


Like you, Zin is one of my favorite varieties to drink. Like previously stated, these two drums are destined for a 225L French oak 2nd year barrel. I’ll likely have enough for at least one 59L barrel too. For a home guy, that’s a lot of wine.

The biggest challenge I’m faced with is getting enough bottles…. I’m literally about to go to the recycle depot and start pulling bottles from the 8’ x 20’ metal container!


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## winemaker81 (Mar 10, 2022)

crushday said:


> The biggest challenge I’m faced with is getting enough bottles…. I’m literally about to go to the recycle depot and start pulling bottles from the 8’ x 20’ metal container!


Collect gallon/4 liter jugs. One of my mentors bottled everything in gallon jugs, and decanted into five 750's when he needed wine.


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## CDrew (Mar 10, 2022)

This bottle shortage continues to be a thing. I have 30 gallons of 2020 wines I have not bottled. 30 gallons of 2021 white wines need to be bottled soon. It's soon time to look for alternatives like kegs, or wine on tap or whatever.

@crushday this looks incredible. Good luck with it.


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## crushday (Mar 11, 2022)

Update: Punched down all six. As I suspected, the Malbec is the most loosely organized. That will change, no doubt, once the Bravo yeast colony begins partying and propagating. By Sunday it will resemble a mosh pit at an Iron Maiden concert...lol.

Let me describe the fermentation room. Simply, it's a framed off (standard studs) area of my garage, insulated and rough finished with particle board. Dimensions are 52 inches wide and 96 inches long. It's a small space. I heat it with a chicken coop heater ($15 at Lowes) attached to an ink bird controller ($25 on amazon). The controller is WiFi, which allows me to adjust and see the temps in the room with my phone via the app. The app also generates a history and I can see how fast the area heats up and how long it takes for the temps to come down enough to trigger the ink bird to supply more heat. 

Here's a pic of the room from last fall...


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## crushday (Mar 11, 2022)

Here I am getting ready for work and the idea just struck me…. Because everything is on casters, every fermentor is relatively easy to move around, albeit there is some weight to contend with. I’ll rotate everything so that the Malbec isn’t banished to the corner the entire time. Last thing I want is the Malbec batch to be even a day or two behind the others for press day. I want to press everything out on the same day so I don’t have to set up and clean equipment more than once. But, I'm also aware each batch has it's own schedule and I will likely have more than one "press" event given the advent of my pending opportunities...


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## stickman (Mar 11, 2022)

Just be careful, you know all about those casters!


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## crushday (Mar 11, 2022)

stickman said:


> Just be careful, you know all about those casters!


SO TRUE!!!


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 11, 2022)

Curious to know what you finally decided for water/tartaric addtions?


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## crushday (Mar 11, 2022)

BarrelMonkey said:


> Curious to know what you finally decided for water/tartaric addtions?


Here's what I have now:

I'm open to further adjustments, per taste and post ferment...

Malbec: None
Zinfandel: 200 grams of tartaric per drum. (two drums)
Cabernet Sauvignon: 150 grams of tartaric each (split to two fermentors, six buckets) - 3 gallons of water added
Cabernet Sauvignon: 150 grams of tartaric each (split to two fermentors, six buckets) - 3 gallons of water added
Syrah/Cab Blend: 164 grams of tartaric - 4.25 gallons of water added


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## SCAndy (Mar 11, 2022)

Cool project to watch.
I am curious regarding the perceived benefits of a 21 day ferment over maybe a more traditional "heat it up and cool it down" approach. Most pros that I have talked to seem to wrap everything up in plus or minus 14 days. Or is that 21 days including extended maceration after ferment?
As I get into this hobby I'd love to have a mini temp controlled room in my garage. Both for heat and long term cooling. But divorce would ensue.
Look forward to seeing your progress. Appreciate your detailed post.


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 11, 2022)

crushday said:


> Here's what I have now:
> 
> I'm open to further adjustments, per taste and post ferment...
> 
> ...



Thanks, always instructive to see what other folks are up to. I wouldn't presume to make recommendations since I've never made any of these varietals, however I think it's a good decision to go more conservative than your original plan.


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## crushday (Mar 11, 2022)

SCAndy said:


> Cool project to watch.
> I am curious regarding the perceived benefits of a 21 day ferment over maybe a more traditional "heat it up and cool it down" approach. Most pros that I have talked to seem to wrap everything up in plus or minus 14 days. Or is that 21 days including extended maceration after ferment?
> As I get into this hobby I'd love to have a mini temp controlled room in my garage. Both for heat and long term cooling. But divorce would ensue.
> Look forward to seeing your progress. Appreciate your detailed post.


You're likely aware of the phrase, "low and slow". That phrase is in relation to smoking various meats. Borrowing that concept and reading that a slower ferment greatly increase aromatics and maceration on the skins, which in turn provides deeper color and flavor for the finished wine, I thought I'd give it a try. Because it's still pretty cold outside, I have the opportunity to more control ambient temps. Unlike, in the late summer when it's hard to keep the heat from getting away from me.


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## Bmd2k1 (Mar 11, 2022)

crushday said:


> Update: Punched down all six. As I suspected, the Malbec is the most loosely organized. That will change, no doubt, once the Bravo yeast colony begins partying and propagating. By Sunday it will resemble a mosh pit at an Iron Maiden concert...lol.
> 
> Let me describe the fermentation room. Simply, it's a framed off (standard studs) area of my garage, insulated and rough finished with particle board. Dimensions are 52 inches wide and 96 inches long. It's a small space. I heat it with a chicken coop heater ($15 at Lowes) attached to an ink bird controller ($25 on amazon). The controller is WiFi, which allows me to adjust and see the temps in the room with my phone via the app. The app also generates a history and I can see how fast the area heats up and how long it takes for the temps to come down enough to trigger the ink bird to supply more heat.
> 
> ...


What are the little blue/white things on top of the 2 Speidels?


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## crushday (Mar 11, 2022)

Bmd2k1 said:


> What are the little blue/white things on top of the 2 Speidels?


Again, that pic was from last fall - those are fruit fly traps. Pesky critters those fruit flies…

And, the Speidels are filled with press wine and that’s when I introduce MLF bacteria, typically CH16.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 12, 2022)

crushday said:


> Like you, Zin is one of my favorite varieties to drink. Like previously stated, these two drums are destined for a 225L French oak 2nd year barrel. I’ll likely have enough for at least one 59L barrel too. For a home guy, that’s a lot of wine.
> 
> The biggest challenge I’m faced with is getting enough bottles…. I’m literally about to go to the recycle depot and start pulling bottles from the 8’ x 20’ metal container!


Why are bottles posing such an issue I bought like 60 cases from a shop locally in one purchase last fall, is their a bottle shortage where you are?


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## crushday (Mar 12, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Why are bottles posing such an issue I bought like 60 cases from a shop locally in one purchase last fall, is their a bottle shortage where you are?


I bought 2 pallets of bottles last fall. They are no longer available at two of my suppliers.


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 12, 2022)

I guess bottles are being hoarded on the west coast! Lol.


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## crushday (Mar 12, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> I guess bottles are being hoarded on the west coast! Lol.


If I had to guess, it's competition with commercial wineries. California alone produces 17 million gallons annually. Washington and Oregon are smaller producers but not by much.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 12, 2022)

AFAIK, my LHBS has plenty of bottles. I've been getting cases of used ones from a local winery whenever I visit.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 13, 2022)

crushday said:


> If I had to guess, it's competition with commercial wineries. California alone produces 17 million gallons annually. Washington and Oregon are smaller producers but not by much.


If I really had problems I know a few commercial wineries who will sell bottles cause they get extras to home winemakers but I tend to not buy from them cause they ask too much.


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## CDrew (Mar 13, 2022)

I just heard today that bottle supply is better and cheaper than a few months ago at least at one of the businesses I buy wine supplies from. I hope it’s a trend.


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## crushday (Mar 14, 2022)

Update: I coinoculated with CH16 MLB. I've been in rigorous fermentation for about three days and it's my general practice to add bacteria two or three days in. I'm only punching twice a day, essentially 12 hours apart.


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## crushday (Mar 14, 2022)

CDrew said:


> I just heard today that bottle supply is better and cheaper than a few months ago at least at one of the businesses I buy wine supplies from. I hope it’s a trend.


Drew, I have a pallet of burgundy bottles on order (112 cases) and I'm told they'll be here in May. I hope so. 

Additionally, I have some fiasco bottles ordered for a Chianti I'm going to bottle soon from last years Sangiovese.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 14, 2022)

crushday said:


> Drew, I have a pallet of burgundy bottles on order (112 cases) and I'm told they'll be here in May. I hope so.
> 
> Additionally, I have some fiasco bottles ordered for a Chianti I'm going to bottle soon from last years Sangiovese.



George, I am just curious: How do you store your Burgundy bottles (let alone fiasco!). I like how Bordeaux bottles stack so much better than Burgundy that I use Bordeaux if I have any choice to speak of. (I will use Burgundy for Pinot Noir, for example, but not much else.)


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## crushday (Mar 14, 2022)

sour_grapes said:


> George, I am just curious: How do you store your Burgundy bottles (let alone fiasco!). I like how Bordeaux bottles stack so much better than Burgundy that I use Bordeaux if I have any choice to speak of. (I will use Burgundy for Pinot Noir, for example, but not much else.)


Paul, very good question. Most burgundy bottles are a little too wide at the base to easily fit into my racks and the rectangle milk cartons I use for intermediate storage. If the ones on order meet this description, I'll store them in the box the bottles arrived in. Same with the fiasco bottles. The use of the fiasco bottles (not for the whole barrel) has more to do with novelty than practicality. It's totally unnecessary but I just want to do it for about half of the volume.

Hope you're enjoying retirement!


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## Bmd2k1 (Mar 14, 2022)

crushday said:


> Drew, I have a pallet of burgundy bottles on order (112 cases) and I'm told they'll be here in May. I hope so.
> 
> Additionally, I have some fiasco bottles ordered for a Chianti I'm going to bottle soon from last years Sangiovese.


Curious where you buy your fiasco bottles from? Would like to score some for a portion of my Sangiovese.

Thanks!


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## crushday (Mar 14, 2022)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Curious where you buy your fiasco bottles from? Would like to score some for a portion of my Sangiovese.
> 
> Thanks!


Talk to Colin at Musto... Bottles, Chianti, 1.5L, 8ct

I ordered three cases each of 1L and 1.5L... He told me there are shipping soon...


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## Bmd2k1 (Mar 14, 2022)

crushday said:


> Talk to Colin at Musto... Bottles, Chianti, 1.5L, 8ct
> 
> I ordered three cases each of 1L and 1.5L... He told me there are shipping soon...


Merci! ✌


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2022)

Update:

*Zinfandel* is slowing down. Cap is loosely organized, I estimate 90% complete. Color good and smells great. The Avante is doing the job.
*Malbec* is estimated at 75% to completion. Color is great and smells amazing. Bravo is working hard.
*Synergistic* blend (50/50 Syrah/Cab) is estimated at 80% complete. Color is great and smells amazing. Bravo getting it done.
*Cabernet Sauv* is estimated at 80% complete. Color is a massive disappointment. Smell is great. Avante is working hard.

I’m puzzled on the Cab’s color. I used EX-V but the temps have been purposely held low. The highest I’ve registered is 74 degrees. This morning it’s 68. Perhaps that’s the difference? However, the other batches all have normal to excellent color and I’ve had the same fermentation strategy and results.

I might have to blend in some Petite Sirah or Petit Verdot to add some color, and maybe some body. Time will tell…


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## stickman (Mar 19, 2022)

Are the skins still dark? If so, then raising the temperature at the end of fermentation can be done to possibly extract and bind more color. Usually it's not recommended to raise the temp late due to the potential of extracting excess tannin, but as long as the grapes are ripe you should be fine. Obviously if the grapes already look depleted of color then there's nothing more to gain.


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2022)

@stickman - Here is a pic of each batch (there’s two). Looks like the skins have LOTS of color to contribute, just being stingy. I just checked the temp - 73.6 at the cap… I turned up the heat after punching this morning at 5am. After I punch tonight, I hope pics of the resulting wine.

Batch #1:




Batch #1, showing more surface:




Batch #2:


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 19, 2022)

crushday said:


> @stickman - Here is a pic of each batch (there’s two). Looks like the skins have LOTS of color to contribute, just being stingy. I just checked the temp - 73.6 at the cap… I turned up the heat after punching this morning at 5am. After I punch tonight, I hope pics of the resulting wine.
> 
> Batch #1:
> 
> ...


Very nice


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 19, 2022)

crushday said:


> Update:
> 
> *Zinfandel* is slowing down. Cap is loosely organized, I estimate 90% complete. Color good and smells great. The Avante is doing the job.
> *Malbec* is estimated at 75% to completion. Color is great and smells amazing. Bravo is working hard.
> ...


Im surprised your cab is the one having color problems, maybe you just got a batch of grapes that aren’t as good as they should have been. A lot of the grapes from my local wine region tend to be stingy on color and you really have to do a long cold soak to get color.

I have never used avante yeast but sounds like it’s pretty good stuff looked up the alcohol tolerance might have to try it this fall. I’ve always used RP-15 for Zinfandel, for my Syrah when I make Syrah I like to split ferment it and use D-21, BM45 and RP-15 and then press and blend everything together I like what each brings when blended. Though if I had to use one yeast D-21 produced the best tasting on its own.


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2022)

Here’s an image of the Cab. Not the best illustration of the color given the debris in suspension. But, look at the edges and you can get the disappointing detail…


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 19, 2022)

crushday said:


> Here’s an image of the Cab. Not the best illustration of the color given the debris in suspension. But, look at the edges and you can get the disappointing detail…
> 
> View attachment 85890
> View attachment 85891


Ouch, yeah that really isn’t very good color.


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2022)

Hey, like my friend @NorCal says, #blendsrule!


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 19, 2022)

crushday said:


> Hey, like my friend @NorCal says, #blendsrule!


I like a good blend but most of my wines have been single varietal though I have a lot of experience with GSM blends and Bordeaux Blends. Can always fix a wine by adding a little of something with more intense color in, Had to do that at work cause the Grenache last year was basically orange and had no color to it at all.


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2022)

It’s incredibly strange - here’s a Cab from the same vineyard two years earlier…


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## winemaker81 (Mar 19, 2022)

@crushday, every harvest is different, as is every vintage. As much as it pains us, each is not optimal.

You already know the answer -- the color may be a disappointment but the aroma is good. Blend for color. Make this work!

EDIT: my 2019 Merlot and Zinfandel were disappointingly light when bottled. 1.5 years later, the color in both has stabilized darker and is pretty. As much as I'd like darker, I'm not complaining.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 19, 2022)

crushday said:


> It’s incredibly strange - here’s a Cab from the same vineyard two years earlier…
> 
> View attachment 85892


Now that’s how I would expect a good cab to look.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 19, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> @crushday, every harvest is different, as is every vintage. As much as it pains us, each is not optimal.
> 
> You already know the answer -- the color may be a disappointment but the aroma is good. Blend for color. Make this work!
> 
> EDIT: my 2019 Merlot and Zinfandel were disappointingly light when bottled. 1.5 years later, the color in both has stabilized darker and is pretty. As much as I'd like darker, I'm not complaining.


My Zinfandel from last year was super pale basically garnet at best in color more like pale ruby could see through it quite easily. But Zinfandel can be like that, the wine is every bit as powerful as a big cab and very full bodied and has a abv of 16.5%.
And that was after using several enzymes and cold soaking.


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## crushday (Mar 21, 2022)

Update:

I have a bit of a dilemma as the *Zinfandel* is done. Although I have not checked the BRIX, the skins are floating with no organized cap. Today it's forecasted to rain ALL DAY. Since I do my pressing outside, this feels like an issue. Even if I did press it wouldn't be until tonight - but according to the forecast it will be raining until midnight.

The *Malbec* is two days behind the Zinfandel. 

The *Cab* will continue to work until Friday as will the *blend. *I did increase the heat on the Cab and the color is improving. 

What is the harm of an extended maceration of the Zin and Malbec if I leave it until Friday? I have moved the Zin to my garage now where it is only 50 degrees. I could move the Malbec there too when it's done. Friday's forecast (I get off at 1pm) is sunny and 61.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 21, 2022)

crushday said:


> I have a bit of a dilemma as the *Zinfandel* is done. Although I have not checked the BRIX, the skins are floating with no organized cap. Today it's forecasted to rain ALL DAY. Since I do my pressing outside, this feels like an issue. Even if I did press it wouldn't be until tonight - but according to the forecast it will be raining until midnight.


A lot of folks are doing EM. With kits they are sealing the fermenter, but wine emits a LOT of CO2 post fermentation, so you should be ok. I'd cover the fermenter with plastic, maybe tie it or use bungie cords. It won't be a perfect seal, but probably good enough.


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## Tim3 (Mar 21, 2022)

If the skins are floating it’s still going. If you check the brix you might find there’s still a percent or two left. My visual cue for when it’s done is when the cap falls just under the surface. Also, don’t be afraid to get those top skins wet for these last few days. Of course if the cap falls completely then just cover and let rest for a few days. Like winemaker said, there’s a lot of CO2 still locked in the must which gives you 2-3 days of flexibility for less than perfectly sealed fermenters.


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 21, 2022)

I would definitely check the brix, and not consider it done (or stuck  ) until the brix does not change from one day to the next. Do you have a fine scale (+/-5) hydrometer?


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## crushday (Mar 21, 2022)

BarrelMonkey said:


> I would definitely check the brix, and not consider it done (or stuck  ) until the brix does not change from one day to the next. Do you have a fine scale (+/-5) hydrometer?


I'll record and report the Brix this evening...


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## crushday (Mar 22, 2022)

Gathering equipment from storage for press day...


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## crushday (Mar 25, 2022)

Pressed the Malbec and the Zin. The Cab and the Syrah/Cab blend are about 2/3 days out.

Here are a couple pics:

Let the party begin.




First Zin fermentor almost empty.




Second Zin fermentor on deck.




Zin pomace.




Malbec free run.




Malbec free run, 2.




Zin (two 120L Speidels)
Malbec (one 120L and one partially filled 60L)


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## ChuckD (Mar 25, 2022)

What kind of press is that? I have only seen the old manual screw press ones. Looks like it operates with a pressurized water filled bladder?


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## crushday (Mar 25, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> What kind of press is that? I have only seen the old manual screw press ones. Looks like it operates with a pressurized water filled bladder?


It’s a Lancman bladder press. It gets "squirty" so I’ve wrapped it with a 55 gallon drum, cut to fit. Keeps everything cleaner.

Here’s what it looks like without the wrap:


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## crushday (Mar 26, 2022)

Update:

Just punched the Syrah/Cab Blend and the 2 batches of Cab. Going to be a couple more days on the Cab. I could press the blend tomorrow but I prefer to press the remaining must on the same day. It takes about an hour to clean up. Set up takes about 20 minutes.

BTW, a couple Brix measurements:

Zinfandel 1 (pressed) -1.6 Brix
Zinfandel 2 (pressed) -1.6 Brix
Malbec (pressed) -0.8 Brix
Cab 1, 2.5 Brix
Cab 2, 2.3 Brix
Syrah/Cab blend, 0.9 Brix

What’s remaining is almost dry.

Note on the Zin pressing yesterday: Zinfandel is an incredibly messy grape, IMO. It breaks down to a mere mush and makes pressing difficult. The fine particles are two to three times higher in volume to other varieties so there's more racking needed to clear the wine. I do like drinking it, however.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 26, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> What kind of press is that? I have only seen the old manual screw press ones. Looks like it operates with a pressurized water filled bladder?


Bladder press, I use the old school presses when I do my batches at home I’ve got a press that’s like 35-40 years old and works like a charm and idk I like the old school presses sort of what you think of when you think of wine.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 26, 2022)

crushday said:


> Update:
> 
> Just punched the Syrah/Cab Blend and the 2 batches of Cab. Going to be a couple more days on the Cab. I could press the blend tomorrow but I prefer to press the remaining must on the same day. It takes about an hour to clean up. Set up takes about 20 minutes.
> 
> ...


Zinfandel is a pain lol I experienced that mush in mine cause I used colorpro and that made it worse lol didn’t think it would but made getting particles out a nightmare I had to rack it like 5 times and let it settle out and still got some sediment in bottles but it’s okay.
I loved the Zinfandel on bottling I was drinking it while bottling and got drunk lol


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## crushday (Apr 2, 2022)

I pressed the remaining wine on Friday afternoon.  The Syrah Cab blend was first. I was able to get 120L of free run and press wine.

The Cab was next and I was able to get 150L, 30 of which was pressed at bar 3. 120L was mostly free run with a little at 1 bar.

Here are a few images:


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## Bmd2k1 (Apr 2, 2022)

crushday said:


> I pressed the remaining wine on Friday afternoon. The Syrah Cab blend was first. I was able to get 120L of free run and press wine.
> 
> The Cab was next and I was able to get 150L, 30 of which was pressed at bar 3. 120L was mostly free run with a little at 1 bar.
> 
> ...


Impressive operation! ✌


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## crushday (Apr 13, 2022)

Update:

Tested for MLF completion yesterday and let the results dry overnight. It's clear that I have a completed MLF in all wines sans the Port which I just started on Monday after pressing.

I haven't talked much about the Port on this thread. The Port was made up of the four varieties from this ferment: Malbec, Syrah, Cabernet Sauvignon and Zinfandel - in equal parts. I chose Avante yeast and fermented it in my cellar which I keep at 58 degrees all year long. In the winter I end up using heat and in the summer an air conditioner to keep the temps where I want them. My hope for the Port was a long, sustained ferment and to test the low heat tolerances of the Avante. It worked great. I moved the Port to my fermentation room a week ago after it reached 4 Brix to warm up and complete primary so I could press and add the bacteria. The Port finished alcoholic fermentation on Sunday and I pressed it on Monday and, added the MLB. I kept the ferment at 58 degrees and it steadily moved along nicely.

After MLF I plan to back sweeten and add grape brandy or might even just use everclear - haven't decided which.

Here's the artwork...


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## cmason1957 (Apr 13, 2022)

What's the ABV of the Port one? I don't think any of the malolactic bacteria I have used work much above 14-15% ABV.


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## CDrew (Apr 13, 2022)

Looks like this spring vintage has gone extremely well for you! I'll be super interested to hear how the port is, because I've considered making one myself. Very nice operation and thanks for the update.


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## crushday (Apr 13, 2022)

Great question, Craig. I use CH16, which has a tolerance to 16% ABV. I don't expect the Port to exceed that as none of the source grape must exceeded that tolerance and finished fine. The difference is I didn't coinnoculate as normal because of the low temp concerns of the bacteria as I was going to ferment at only 58 degrees. The low range of the MLB is 62 and the high is 77. To note, however, I have exceeded the high range many times and never had a problem.

We will see what happens in the coming weeks.


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## CDrew (Apr 13, 2022)

CH16 does seem to be an infallible work horse for MLF. And for me, I'm always in the sweet spot temperature wise, so maybe why it works so well. You have now provided some low temperature testing so thank you for that.

Follow up port question: How much do you plan to sweeten it?


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## crushday (Apr 13, 2022)

Great question, Drew. If it stayed at 4 Brix, I would be happy. But, I suspect it will do down a bit and might even go dry. If it does, I'll back sweeten to 4, no more than 5, Brix. 

I don't know how other winemakers keep the Brix where they want. Arriving at the desired Brix and then fortifying would mean the bacteria never takes off. Arriving at the desired Brix and adding MLB (strategy I landed on) and fortifying after MLF is complete will certainly call for back sweetening. Not sure how to do the first strategy.


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## CDrew (Apr 13, 2022)

Yes-I kind of assumed you just made wine as usual. Then fortified, then back sweetened. Maybe that's the wrong approach. Which brandy will you use to fortify? One of my commercial wine making friends got the commercial brandy version that isn't heavily aged or anything and his port is very good.


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## crushday (Apr 13, 2022)

Drew, I'm actually going back and forth between grape brandy, which I can only get at 80 proof or using Everclear (190 proof). I have lots of grape flavor in the Port right now, so not sure the benefit of using brandy in this case.

This is the third Port I've made in as many years. Previously, I used Christian Brothers Brandy (first year) and grape brandy for the second year. I'm super happy with the second year port. Mostly because the first year I got all out of wack following a recipe and added Hershey's chocolate syrup and all but ruined the port to my taste. Others love it though. The second year I just made the port from Syrah only. It's very good and aging in bottle.


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## CDrew (Apr 13, 2022)

Yes, it seems that 80 proof brandy would add too much water and dilute the grape flavor. I like the everclear idea. Unfortunately in California, our everclear is 66% alcohol and not 95% alcohol. But a road trip to Nevada can fix that. Please continue to post up how it turns out.


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