# learning question



## kahaas56 (Mar 26, 2013)

i know your suppose to add metabisulphite and sorbate to 1/2 cup of cool water, what would happen if you add the both to your wine in a dry form without water?


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## dralarms (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, first you don't add them together, you can add 1 or the other first but never mixed together. I always add my k-meta dry, but potassium sorbate needs to be mixed in a small amount of warm water to activate, then you can add it.


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## kahaas56 (Mar 26, 2013)

glad you cleared that up about adding them separately by reading my direction i probably would have mixed both together.. the warmth of the wine wouldn't activate the sorbate?


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## dralarms (Mar 26, 2013)

Nope, what I do is place 2 or so oz of water in the microwave for 20 seconds and while its warming I add k-meta to the wine and stir. Then I add the correct amount of sorbate to the water, give it a quick stir and dump it in and stir the wine.


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## kahaas56 (Mar 26, 2013)

So if the sorbate was added dry, what would be the fix for it? Actually my directions say 1/2 of cool water..not warm..


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## dralarms (Mar 26, 2013)

I just don't think it would work, that's all.


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## cpfan (Mar 26, 2013)

kahaas56 said:


> So if the sorbate was added dry, what would be the fix for it? Actually my directions say 1/2 of cool water..not warm..


In the past, I have had some minor problems getting the sorbate to dissolve when added to the wine dry. So now, I always put it in a bit of water, and whisk it a little. Then I let it sit for a few minutes while adding the K-meta and degassing the wine before adding the sorbate solution.

Steve


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## kahaas56 (Mar 26, 2013)

my plan is to bulk age it...at what time should I add the sorbate


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## SBWs (Mar 26, 2013)

dralarms said:


> Well, first you don't add them together, you can add 1 or the other first but never mixed together. I always add my k-meta dry, but potassium sorbate needs to be mixed in a small amount of warm water to activate, then you can add it.



Why never mixed together? I've done it that way several times am I doing something wrong i don't know about?


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## cpfan (Mar 26, 2013)

SBWs said:


> Why never mixed together? I've done it that way several times am I doing something wrong i don't know about?


I don't know if it is wrong or not. Most instructions that I have seen suggest that they be done separately. I have seen one kit's instructions that called for them mixed together.

However, I prefer to do them separately (when I actually add sorbate) because I stir and degas between the two, giving one more shot at degassing.

Steve


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## GreginND (Mar 26, 2013)

The two do not react with each other. So mixing them should be no problem. There is no such thing as "activating" the sorbate. The only issue is getting it to dissolve. Best practice is to dissolve solids in a small amount of wine or water first and then stir it into the wine. You could do this together or separate. But I have added both in solid form directly to my wines many times and never had a problem.


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## dralarms (Mar 26, 2013)

OK, learned something new. I was told that they act on each other and would gel. Guess that's what I get for not checking things for myself.


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## GreginND (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmm, I don't know why they would gel but I haven't done the experiment. Does anyone. Have experience?


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## dralarms (Mar 27, 2013)

When I get time I'll try it to see what it does.


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## Arne (Mar 27, 2013)

I usually just add them with a final rack. Dump em in an empty carboy and rack on top of them. Arne.


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## Turock (Mar 27, 2013)

We add both the meta and sorbate together but we crush the sorbate up first and add it to a clean carboy, then rack the wine into it. Then we microwave the sugar with some wine, add it to the carboy and stir very well. This has worked well for us over the past 23 years.

As a side note, always be sure your sorbate is well mixed thruout the wine.


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## wineforfun (Mar 27, 2013)

I just add them separately (not diluted in water/wine first) and then stir the crap out of them in the carboy..............granted I am using only doing this with 1 gal. carboys so getting them to dissolve hasn't been a problem.


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## Polarhug (Mar 27, 2013)

I've tried to add it dry, it doesn't mix very well. Pre dissolving in warm water does the trick and I've added them in the same water too with no bad effects.


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## kahaas56 (Mar 27, 2013)

for everybody that say the sorbate doesn't mix well dry, what problem(s) arise if the sorbate isn't mix well. 

Thanks for all the feed back, I'm trying learn as I go on, very interesting I must say..


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## Chiumanfu (Mar 27, 2013)

RJS Winery Series and En Primeur instructions both say to add sulphite to carboy and stir vigorously then add sorbate to carboy and stir vigorously.

The WE Eclipse kit I'm doing now says to add sulphite and sorbate to 1/2 cup of cold water and add to carboy.

I typically do the same as Arne and Turock, no matter what the instructions say. Dump the chems in an empty carboy and rack on top. Never had any problems.


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## saramc (Mar 27, 2013)

If I recall the MSDS for potassium sorbate says it is easily soluble in cold water. I simply dissolve it in equal amount of water, then I stir the crushed KMS into the sample of wine in my wine thief and all is good. I have had issues of sorbate not dissolving when added directly to wine, I really should have written down which wines those were...regardless I no longer directly add either any longer. Just my comfort zone.


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## Turock (Mar 28, 2013)

If you don't get the sorbate dissolved evenly, you may have some bottles that don't have enough in them. Very important to get it distributed thruout the wine. Whether you do it dry or mix in water---whatever works for you is the best way. Those little pellets of sorbate really don't dissolve very well. That's why we crush them with a mortor and pestle.


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## weaverschmitz (Dec 27, 2013)

*Sorbate in port*

I've always added sorbate dry and haven't had any problems. Until this weekend when I wanted to bump up the sweetness of a mulberry port and added some sugar along with sorbate. It did not dissolve. Based on the comments in this thread I'll dissolve in warm water going forward. However, I'm wondering what I should do now about the sorbate that isn't dissolving?


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

leave it and rack it off.....never add sorbate to an uncleared wine.


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 28, 2013)

> never add sorbate to an uncleared wine


James, I've never heard this before, where did you find this info?


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## cmason1957 (Dec 28, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> James, I've never heard this before, where did you find this info?


Oh good, I am not the only one to doubt this but if wisdom I have heard from others before. I think to me instructions. They always have you add the sorbate before clearing.


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

following turocks lead are running wolf..not sure which...but it makes sense.

http://nanaimowinemakers.org/Notes/Sorbate.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_sorbate


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

pumpkinman and cmason...i know both of you are very good winemakers with much knowledge, here is some room for thought...
the least yeast cells, the better the sorbate works.
a clear wine has less yeast cells.
also...i think lot of times when folks have wine that is hard to clear it is because of the sorbate added before while cloudy.


this is just my opinion and can not find any evidence of it.
we all know there is a negative and positive charge in the wine particulates...could sorbate change that in some way, are build a wall around the yeast cells make them lighter and harder to drop...
what you think.


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

(A) Ferment the wine until it is completely dry. Just before bottling time, when the wine is clear and stable, add 250 milligrams per liter of potassium sorbate. Raise the molecular sulfur dioxide level to 0.8 milligrams per liter and add the desired amount of sugar or sweet reserve. Potassium sorbate stops yeast cells from multiplying. It does not stop fermentation, so sorbate is only effective when added to clear wines (containing only a few yeast cells).


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## Turock (Dec 28, 2013)

The reason you don't add sorbate to an unclear wine is because there are too many yeast cells present for it to work properly. The over- abundance of yeast cells will overwelm the sorbate. All white papers on sorbate do a good job of explaining this, but I'm sure many people have never researched sorbate. Many people add sorbate to wine shortly after they get it over in the secondary saying that they are "stabilizing" the wine. Well, nothing is further from the truth. 

For sorbate to prevent refermentation when you are backsweetening, you must first have the bulk of the yeast cells removed thru racking. Otherwise, there are so many yeast cells that the sorbate can't fully work and you will have a very slow re-fermentation going on. And bulk aging is the only tactic that stabilizes wine because the sediment that falls out of a wine is all the unstable components. So getting these off the wine is what gives stability. 

The only time you add sorbate before clearing is with a kit. But that is the only time you should do it. For non-kit wines--don't sorbate until you have the wine clear.

weaver--If you let the carboy sit until the sorbate is hydrated, then stir, it should go into solution. Go to Bed Bath and Beyond and get yourself a mortor and pestle and crush that sorbate up!! It dissolves so much better--or put it in some water first. Whatever works for you is fine. But just tossed into the carboy whole---well, they don't like going into solution in a cool liquid like wine.


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## cpfan (Dec 28, 2013)

I don't want to get into an argument about sorbate before or after clearing because I suspect it's one of those "ask 10 winemakers get 12 responses type things". However, ....

1) kits have you add the sorbate prior to the clearing agents (as already mentioned)

2) if there is a tiny bit of sugar left that has not fermented for some reason (eg alcohol %age), or is fermenting very slowly (eg temperature too low) [YES, I know that these are picky picky situations], then the yeast may keep working and interfere with clearing. Therefore sorbate prior to clearing should shut down the yeast and assist in the clearing.

So, since I'm a kit guy, sorbate (when I use it) goes in before the clearing agents. If you do different, and it works....GREAT!

Steve


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## Runningwolf (Dec 28, 2013)

Again many ways to get to the finish depending on who you talk to. For years I always added meta/sorbate right after racking off fermentation since I started off with kits just like cpfan does, I NEVER had an issue. 

With that said TODAY I add sorbate, meta and sugar at the same time just days before bottling. 

OK YA'LL ready for this one? Occasionally I'll add 1/2%rs sugar (1.002sg) to a red. I add NO sorbate to this.


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## GreginND (Dec 28, 2013)

Again, sorbate does not shut down yeast. All living yeast will continue working as long as there is sugar and they I'll live out their normal lifespan. 

Kits are bottled pretty early. I tend to age wines a year or more before bottling. Thus I only add sorbate and sweeten a few weeks before bottling. If you add sorbate near the beginning and age it for a year, it may have decomposed and become less effective when you go to bottle.


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## GreginND (Dec 28, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> OK YA'LL ready for this one? Occasionally I'll add 1/2%rs sugar (1.002sg) to a red. I add NO sorbate to this.




Yes, you can get away with that for a while. Presumably the yeast population will be extremely small after aging your red. But I wouldn't trust it for years in the bottle and definitely not on a commercial product without sterile filtration.


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## Turock (Dec 28, 2013)

Anyone who questions sorbate useage should go read some white papers on it for yourself. I think this is the number one addition to wine that is the most misunderstood.

When doing kits--follow the instructions because they are made different than scratch wines. But using sorbate before clearing on non-kit wines is wrong because it often causes problems. 

If yeast cells are present---and they always are---you risk re-fermentation when adding sugar and no sorbate. You will STILL have a slight and very slow re-fermentation but you may not notice it and it may not be enough to blow the cork. But this is always risky and not the best practice.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 28, 2013)

Commercial it is! They also do this a lot in California. Keep in mind most yeast has been racked off, died off or weaken. The wine has been aging at least a year. Did you ever try to restart a fermentation at this point? Extremely difficult. Last stop is a .45 filter followed up with an absolute filter as Greg mentioned. 

I would never go over 1/2% rs sugar when doing this.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS PRACTICE AT HOME, but I do it with my .45 micron filter on the Enolmatic. Not thinking outside the box, just pushing the limits.


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

I can not find the white paper, but I read where sorbate attacks the cells of the yeast, and surrounds the cell with a barrier of some kind, thinking out of the box....
when this cell is being protected by the sorbate, doe the cell fall out as fast as sediment...are is the structure neutral....meaning not positve are negative and prevents from clearing a cloudy wine.
Just my opinion.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 28, 2013)

Here is a link I found to a very approachable white paper on sorbate use.

http://enology.umn.edu/2011/02/23/potassium-sorbate-as-a-wine-preservative/

Important points I got from it, if you don't care to click and read.
1) Commercial wineries seldom use it. They sterile filter, which remove all dead yeast cells.
2) I think we all knew this one, don't need to add to dry wines.
3) should be used when levels of yeast are smallest, (not like wine kits have you add).
4) always breaks down over enough time.
5) amount used depends on pH. (I have to say this one surprised me)


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## Turock (Dec 28, 2013)

I thought that filtering only got rid of 80% of the yeast cells.


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

cmason, i read this in the article you posted a link to.

The amount of sugar in the wine has no effect on the amount of sorbate needed. The only concerns are pH, alcohol, and the initial population of yeast cells (which should be less than 100/mL – *make sure the wine is very clear before adding K-sorbate). *


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 28, 2013)

but yet, although most of the research done with sorbate in grape wines, not a lot on fruit wines...another topic that has had very little research is does sorbate effect wine that is not cleared...does it take longer, is it harder to clear, etc....just thinking..not making a point.


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## Turock (Dec 29, 2013)

James---you can't have a ton of yeast cells and expect sorbate to work to prevent refermentation when sugar is added. I read one time that as many yeast cells as possible need to be racked off the wine. And I also read that wines need to be stabilized before using it. Stability comes from bulk aging and removing all the unstable components,such as precipitates,haze, sediments,and volatile esters. Aging also stabilizes tannins,pigments, and color. Bitter and astringent compounds may also drop out during this time. So being in a hurry to bottle and drink is not the best. You are missing out on how great your wines may be by consuming them so young.


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## CUZN_J (Apr 17, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> Here is a link I found to a very approachable white paper on sorbate use.
> 
> http://enology.umn.edu/2011/02/23/potassium-sorbate-as-a-wine-preservative/
> 
> ...


Well the link does not work for me, says (page not found)


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## sour_grapes (Apr 17, 2018)

CUZN_J said:


> Well the link does not work for me, says (page not found)



4 years is a long time on the internet, my friend!


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## Zintrigue (Apr 18, 2018)

I always siphon off a cup of wine into a wine glass when racking for stabilizing. I smell, examine, make notes; then add the kmeta and sorbate to the wine glass together. Stir for a while until dissolved, then add when degassing. I kinda came up with doing it this way after a few of my kits said to mix them together.


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## Scooter68 (Apr 19, 2018)

I normally add them to my carboy before I rack into it. Never had any problem with them not dissolving by the time the racking is done. Since I use campden tablets I just make sure they are well ground before adding. If you are using k-meta in powder form, again should be no issue for mixing. 
Of course I try to do this about a week before bottling or back-sweetening. If I back-sweeten then I wait another week before bottling. Again as with most steps, preparation and patience is key.


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## galen1 (Apr 20, 2018)

Scooter68 said:


> I normally add them to my carboy before I rack into it. Never had any problem with them not dissolving by the time the racking is done. Since I use campden tablets I just make sure they are well ground before adding. If you are using k-meta in powder form, again should be no issue for mixing.
> Of course I try to do this about a week before bottling or back-sweetening. If I back-sweeten then I wait another week before bottling. Again as with most steps, preparation and patience is key.


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## galen1 (Apr 20, 2018)

This what I do when adding to my batches. You can add SO2 at any time except pre-fermentation or during fermentation. I almost always ferment to dry, then back sweeten just before bottling. I add sorbate when I sweeten. Always dilute powders in some liquid before adding to wine.


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## jgmillr1 (Apr 20, 2018)

galen1 said:


> This what I do when adding to my batches. You can add SO2 at any time except pre-fermentation or during fermentation.



You can add sulfites pre-fermentation and it is done all the time to kill off wild yeast. I agree there is no reason to add during fermentation.


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## robert81650 (Apr 21, 2018)

Never had any problems adding them together in my experiences. Dissolve in small amount of wine at room temperature,wait about 20 minutes, stir again and then add to carboy.


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