# 1st Batch.... Should I top off Secondary?



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

Just racked my first kit into the secondary. SG was at 1.018. There is some head room in the secondary, but I am still getting CO2 through the airlock. Is the CO2 enough to limit the O2 or should I go ahead and top it off with the same kind of wine? Thanks!


----------



## Rembee (Jan 18, 2021)

Not enough information. How much head space, what type of fermentation vessel, is it under an airlock?


----------



## jgmillr1 (Jan 18, 2021)

The question is what percentage of headspace is there? If it's under 5% of the total volume then you're probably fine. After it has settled over the next month then you'll need to be careful with topping off when you rack to eliminate the headspace.


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

Rembee said:


> Not enough information. How much head space, what type of fermentation vessel, is it under an airlock?



Thank you for the quick reply. My bad... Still new to this. Not sure what info is needed. Thanks for the clarification. 

6 Gallon Carboy under airlock, See pic for how much headspace.


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

jgmillr1 said:


> The question is what percentage of headspace is there? If it's under 5% of the total volume then you're probably fine. After it has settled over the next month then you'll need to be careful with topping off when you rack to eliminate the headspace.


Thank you JG.... If you would, please take a look at the pic in the reply to Rembee.... According to your reply, I'm thinking that is too much headspace and I need to top 'er off. Thoughts?


----------



## Rembee (Jan 18, 2021)

I would definitely top up with a like wine to within an 1/2 inch below where your carboy handle attaches to the neck.


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

Rembee said:


> I would definitely top up with a like wine to within an 1/2 inch below where your carboy handle attaches to the neck.


Thank you Rembee! This is my first batch ever and I find myself wanting to do everything perfect and get stressed about it. Then I read from the pros like you and I've learned I need to relax and be patient. I hope to be helpful like you guys someday. Thanks Again!


----------



## Rembee (Jan 18, 2021)

Your welcome! Although I am hardly a pro lol. Like you I've learned along the way by asking questions. As is often said within this forum....wine is very forgiving and should be fun to make. And remember, patience is a virtue of life!


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

Rembee said:


> Your welcome! Although I am hardly a pro lol. Like you I've learned along the way by asking questions. As is often said within this forum....wine is very forgiving and should be fun to make. And remember, patience is a virtue of life!


Thanks! So I topped her off to within a half inch of the handle and it started bubbling over. Used my thief to remove a little. Take a look and let me know if you think this is ok.


----------



## Rembee (Jan 18, 2021)

That looks fine for now until it has finished the fermentation process. It sounds like you added the top off a little to fast causing it to volcano over. Another learning experience!


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 18, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Thanks! So I topped her off to within a half inch of the handle and it started bubbling over. Used my thief to remove a little. Take a look and let me know if you think this is ok. View attachment 70621
> 
> )you're good to go
> Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

Rembee said:


> That looks fine for now until it has finished the fermentation process. It sounds like you added the top off a little to fast causing it to volcano over. Another learning experience!


Lol! I wouldn't call it a volcano, more like a slow lava flow


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

Thanks Dawg


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 18, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Just racked my first kit into the secondary. SG was at 1.018. There is some head room in the secondary, but I am still getting CO2 through the airlock. Is the CO2 enough to limit the O2 or should I go ahead and top it off with the same kind of wine? Thanks!


unless you're doing kits which locks you in sortta on your liquids, but from scratch or concentrates , then i always make extra to go into extra airlocked jugs,, in gallon, half gallon and pint jugs, to keep enough of same wine to top off at every racking,, all smaller jugs are 38-400 threaded jugs so a 6.5 drilled bung, and that small universal bung in your carboy can be turned upside down, and will airlock wine bottles, 
Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 18, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> unless you're doing kits which locks you in sortta on your liquids, but from scratch or concentrates , then i always make extra to go into extra airlocked jugs,, in gallon, half gallon and pint jugs, to keep enough of same wine to top off at every racking,, all smaller jugs are 38-400 threaded jugs so a 6.5 drilled bung, and that small universal bung in your carboy can be turned upside down, and will airlock wine bottles,
> Dawg


Good to know! Yes, I am doing kits. I don't feel that I have the knowledge yet to start from scratch


----------



## Newlyretired (Jan 19, 2021)

Just curious why would you rack so early. shouldn’t you wait till the SpG is stabilized below 1, ideally around 0.990


----------



## Rice_Guy (Jan 19, 2021)

A general comment, there are several gases which are considered to be protective. We have non reactive gas as argon which one can hit with a hammer and it won’t do anything. We have some reactive gases which are low enough in food chain that they mostly sit there as carbon dioxide and nitrogen (low redox potential). As long as yeast is actively producing CO2 it keeps washing oxygen out so it is protected_. The critical point is when metabolism slows down AKA bubbles in the air lock slow down._
This wine maker mag write up has several things as oxidation to watch out for as your wine ages: Preventing Off-Flavors - WineMakerMag.com



Riledup5 said:


> I'm thinking that is too much headspace and I need to top 'er off. Thoughts?


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 19, 2021)

Newlyretired said:


> Just curious why would you rack so early. shouldn’t you wait till the SpG is stabilized below 1, ideally around 0.990


I am new to this, but I have read to rack between 1.01 - 1.02. Then rack again when fermentation is complete (around 0.998). I think the 2nd racking is so you don't get sediment in your bottles. Oh, and the kit instructions said to


----------



## Rice_Guy (Jan 19, 2021)

One of the key decision points is when is racking convenient?


Riledup5 said:


> I am new to this, but I have read to rack between 1.01 - 1.02. Then rack again when fermentation is complete (around 0.998). I think the 2nd racking is so you don't get sediment in your bottles. Oh, and the kit instructions said to


early racking has negatives as foam and losing some must and poor separation of lees while actively fermenting
Early racking has advantages as volatile aroma retention and the wine is in a reduced oxygen protected environment so you can ignore it longer.

A general rule is that red grapes contain antioxidants therefore it is safer to run them to 1.000 or below. ..... Wine is forgiving, only by looking at shelf life/ flavor after a year or two will oxygen risk decisions become obvious.


----------



## bstnh1 (Jan 19, 2021)

I do not top up secondaries. 1. There's still plenty of CO2 being produced. to protect the wine. 2. With a topped up carboy, it's virtually impossible to degas without making mess. I do WE kits and the instructions do not call for racking until SG is .996 or less and no topping up all the way through to bottling or bulk aging. I usually let mine sit in primary until the SG in down to .992 and then rack and degas.


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 19, 2021)




----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 21, 2021)

OK.... another situation. Man, I thought I got this process right after the couple of mistakes I made on my first batch. I started a WE Pinot Noir on Monday (1/18). Everything has been going great! Last night my son came over and wanted to see my setup. Everything seemed great. This morning.... everything seemed great. This afternoon I went to check on things and when I opened the door to the room I smelled sulpher. SG went from 1.076 Monday to 1.034 today. Temp was at 78. Too high? Should I leave it? Should I add some KMet? Copper? Help me!


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 21, 2021)

i aint never done a kit nor grape wine , but it sounds like it is degassing
Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 21, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> i aint never done a kit nor grape wine , but it sounds like it is degassing
> Dawg


Thanks Dawg, knew I could count on you  but being a noob, what does that mean? And should I just leave it?


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 21, 2021)

yes let it degas, when your SG gets to 1,000 or lower rack and airlock, it takes time to degas, or a vacuum pump when racking will pull your gasses out, but so will time,
Dawg


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 21, 2021)

oh, NO COPPER when you rack put 1/4 tsp of k-meta(potassium metabisulfite _) per 6 gallons to avoid oxidation, add the 1/4 tsp at every rack and at bottling time
Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 21, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> oh, NO COPPER when you rack put 1/4 tsp of k-meta(potassium metabisulfite _) per 6 gallons to avoid oxidation, add the 1/4 tsp at every rack and at bottling time
> Dawg


Thank you.. Much appreciated


----------



## sour_grapes (Jan 21, 2021)

When you say that you smell sulfur, do you mean like a burnt match, or like rotten egg/dog fart? I assume the latter (H2S, AKA hydrogen sulfide).

I would recommend aerating this a bit to help the H2S dissipate. Stir it up good, or whip it if you have such a device. Or "splash rack" it once or twice.


----------



## bstnh1 (Jan 21, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> i aint never done a kit nor grape wine , but it sounds like it is degassing
> Dawg


Really? You think its degassing after just 3 days .....and with the SG still above 1.000?


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 21, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> When you say that you smell sulfur, do you mean like a burnt match, or like rotten egg/dog fart? I assume the latter (H2S, AKA hydrogen sulfide).
> 
> I would recommend aerating this a bit to help the H2S dissipate. Stir it up good, or whip it if you have such a device. Or "splash rack" it once or twice.


Thanks..... I gave it a good stir. If that does the trick, how long before it might dissapate?


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 21, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> Really? You think its degassing after just 3 days .....and with the SG still above 1.000?


I wish I knew the chemistry behind what you guys are talking about. I was a chemistry major and biology minor, but that was 25 years ago. I forgot more than I knew


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 21, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Thanks..... I gave it a good stir. If that does the trick, how long before it might dissapate?


And it is more like rotten eggs


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 21, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> Really? You think its degassing after just 3 days .....and with the SG still above 1.000?


what do you say to someone that's so excited and having fun the first things he will learn hum?
as all on here know, i am non technical, and enjoy myself, you think i should of been more up tight, he's learning, once he gets a handle on it he'll ask others, and be merrily on his way to a very enjoyable hobby, and i did mention degassing vacuum or as he pleases, you kinda sound like i rub you the wrong way, if so i apologize to you, but i suit myself and enjoy myself, and he'll learn to suit his self, and enjoy the craft his way, is not the point, i pointed out a
couple things, he'll get his confidence, and since i go mainly old school. except for modern tools to make life easier,, I'll apologize if I've offended you, But Don't Hold Your Breath expecting me to apologize to you or anyone for the way i look at life,  
Skoal
Dawg


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 21, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> I wish I knew the chemistry behind what you guys are talking about. I was a chemistry major and biology minor, but that was 25 years ago. I forgot more than I knew


throw them big labels out there, i guess it covers your intoxication ,,, 
life's short, enjoy it,
Skoal
Dawg


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 22, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> yes let it degas, when your SG gets to 1,000 or lower rack and airlock, it takes time to degas, or a vacuum pump when racking will pull your gasses out, but so will time,
> Dawg


yep i agree with myself, @Riledup5 , let time degas, when at a SG of 1.000 or (lower) rack, add K-meta 1/4 tsp per 6 gal at each racking, and at bottling time, I'll just half to bone up on some big labels too (as well) whelp guess i'd better get back out i'm purty , busy changeing the spark plugs on my diesel powerplant, and need to put antifreeze in my VW beetle, then oil my sky hook, and find where i left my stud stretcher, hi-ho hi-ho off to wurk i goesie
Dawg


----------



## Venatorscribe (Jan 22, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> When you say that you smell sulfur, do you mean like a burnt match, or like rotten egg/dog fart? I assume the latter (H2S, AKA hydrogen sulfide).
> 
> I would recommend aerating this a bit to help the H2S dissipate. Stir it up good, or whip it if you have such a device. Or "splash rack" it once or twice.


Absolutely agree with this. It will recover/solve most of your immediate issues. Hang fire on the Cu at this stage. That is only a technique to be employed down the track if nothing else works. But remember time will probably solve most issues.


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 22, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> I wish I knew the chemistry behind what you guys are talking about. I was a chemistry major and biology minor, but that was 25 years ago. I forgot more than I knew


the chemistry books cause most classmate to become bubbas boy toys, the year all chemistry books were new and did not have the info,,,,
Dawg


----------



## Rice_Guy (Jan 22, 2021)

This thread was busy
As a general statement, * the higher the temperature the greater the risk of stressing the yeast and producing sulphur odor, * if we know we are going to run hot we frequently can avoid stress by adding extra yeast nutrient as Fermaid (O / K), * some yeast are more resistant some less (look at the instructions on Montrachet). * the temperature in an active carboy seems to be about two degrees warmer than the ambient air


Riledup5 said:


> This morning.... everything seemed great. This afternoon I went to check on things and when I opened the door to the room I smelled sulpher. SG went from 1.076 Monday to 1.034 today. Temp was at 78. Too high?


My one experience with sulphuric smell was using Montrachet in Chilean Sarah on a temperature series, it was slight in 75F and more pronounced above. The good news is it went away without any intervention.
As a general statement copper is to be avoided since it is hard to control. There are some measured in ppm liquid Cu drops that are safer, the only vinters club folks I know who have tried Cu fermented a very nasty tasting grape buy and were looking for anything to fix it. The wine stayed , , , _UMM interesting _after treatment, however it was a good learning experience for the whole club!

As a general statement if the wine is 1.005 or higher there is quite a bit of sugar left and would be called a “stuck fermentation“. The alcohol yield is reduced and the risk of infection/ refermentation/ bottle bombs will increase. When done intentionally wine folks add potassium sorbate or cider folks pasteurize or use grosch bottles.


----------



## bstnh1 (Jan 22, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> what do you say to someone that's so excited and having fun the first things he will learn hum?
> as all on here know, i am non technical, and enjoy myself, you think i should of been more up tight, he's learning, once he gets a handle on it he'll ask others, and be merrily on his way to a very enjoyable hobby, and i did mention degassing vacuum or as he pleases, you kinda sound like i rub you the wrong way, if so i apologize to you, but i suit myself and enjoy myself, and he'll learn to suit his self, and enjoy the craft his way, is not the point, i pointed out a
> couple things, he'll get his confidence, and since i go mainly old school. except for modern tools to make life easier,, I'll apologize if I've offended you, But Don't Hold Your Breath expecting me to apologize to you or anyone for the way i look at life,
> Skoal
> Dawg


No, you didn't offend me, Dawg. Actually, I learn a lot from reading your posts.  It's just that I really don't think the wine is self-degassing only 3 days after he started it. It's giving off gas, as all fermentations do, but I wouldn't refer to it as degassing.


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 22, 2021)

Thank you everyone. I love that there are so many techniques, methods and opinions on how to do things. It shows me that there is no "right way". Maybe it is an art? Anyway.... I will just give it some time. I turned down the temp, gave it a good stir and continue to do so daily and see what transpires. @hounddawg I enjoy and learn from your posts. Much appreciated. Thanks to you and everyone else for the input.


----------



## winemaker81 (Jan 22, 2021)

@Riledup5, if you've got H2S, immediate treatment is required. While H2S is volatile and can dissipate on its own, its presence in wine can produce other chemicals that will ruin the wine.

As suggested, the initial treatment is vigorous stirring and the addition of more K-meta. Yeah, it sounds odd adding sulfur to treat sulfur, but the compounds are totally different.

If this solves your problem? Great!

I encountered H2S a few months back, and *here is that discussion*. In my case, I could smell a small amount of H2S after initial treatment, so I added a product called Reduless, which is specifically formulated to treat H2S. Then I added kieselsol/chitosan to precipitate the results (along with all other suspended particles).

The old way was to pour the wine over clean copper pennies or an usused copper scrubby. However, the amount of copper introduced cannot be measured, and too much copper is poisonous. Using a measured amount of a product designed for removing H2S is strongly recommended.

==

Regarding head space in the carboy, if you have active fermentation, the wine is throwing off enough CO2 to displace all lighter gases, including O2. As you apparently discovered, filling the carboy too much will give you your very own volcano! I typically rack kits, whites, and fruits between 1.010 and 1.000, and leave ~6" headspace in the carboy until fermentation completes.


----------



## winemaker81 (Jan 22, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Thank you everyone. I love that there are so many techniques, methods and opinions on how to do things. It shows me that there is no "right way". Maybe it is an art?


Wine is a mixture of art and science. We often try to control the things we can, and wise wine makers understand that we can only control so much. Mother Nature is really in charge. Praying to Dionysus may help ...

There are few solid, "this is the way to do it" answers in wine making. Most answers fall within a range. Take first racking for instance. Most people rack between 1.010 and "done". Some rack earlier, and some leave the pomace in the wine for a period of time. All work.

My suggestion -- read all the answers and make the best informed decision for yourself.


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 22, 2021)

bstnh1 said:


> No, you didn't offend me, Dawg. Actually, I learn a lot from reading your posts.  It's just that I really don't think the wine is self-degassing only 3 days after he started it. It's giving off gas, as all fermentations do, but I wouldn't refer to it as degassing.


sorry i was having a ruff day, as for giving off gas and degassing i see as the same thing except for one is the start of and the other is the ending, so you're probably right, i see it as the same just starting and ending, but as many will tell you i ain't right.  
Dawg


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 22, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Thank you everyone. I love that there are so many techniques, methods and opinions on how to do things. It shows me that there is no "right way". Maybe it is an art? Anyway.... I will just give it some time. I turned down the temp, gave it a good stir and continue to do so daily and see what transpires. @hounddawg I enjoy and learn from your posts. Much appreciated. Thanks to you and everyone else for the input.


but i still aint right in the head, hehe just ask them,  
Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 23, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> but i still aint right in the head, hehe just ask them,
> Dawg


Ha! Are any of us?


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 23, 2021)

What are your thoughts on using Na Meta for sanitizing? I've read quite a bit about Kmeta and the need to add citric acid. I didn't find anything on Na Meta and the directions that came with it said nothing about it. Directions just said to use 2 oz/gal of H20 for sanitizing. Thanks!


----------



## cmason1957 (Jan 23, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> What are your thoughts on using Na Meta for sanitizing? I've read quite a bit about Kmeta and the need to add citric acid. I didn't find anything on Na Meta and the directions that came with it said nothing about it. Directions just said to use 2 oz/gal of H20 for sanitizing. Thanks!



Both kmeta and nameta benefit from lowering the ph (adding acid). If it's getting harder and harder to even find na-meta.


----------



## sour_grapes (Jan 23, 2021)

So, sure, if you already have Na-meta, use it for sanitizing.


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 23, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> So, sure, if you already have Na-meta, use it for sanitizing.


Do you agree that citric acid should be added?


----------



## sour_grapes (Jan 23, 2021)

(a) It would be better to do so. (b) I never do, too lazy. So I'm not much help!


----------



## Rembee (Jan 23, 2021)

I've been using this simple formula for years now with no issues.

1 quart chlorine free water
1 tsp citric acid or tartaric acid or acid blend. What ever you have on hand.
1/2 tsp potassium metabisulfite

I make up a 1/2 gallon at a time and keep it in a 1 gallon jug with a screw cap or rubber stopper. It's good for about 1 month. I use it also in a spray bottle for a quick sanitizer for my hydrometer and cylinder.
Hope this helps!


----------



## Rembee (Jan 23, 2021)

I also should have mentioned that once I empty out a vessel, plastic bucket or a glass carboy I rinse it out with hot tap water asap. Especially if there is lees in the bottom. It's much easier doing this... then allowing the sediment to dry out and then becoming a pain in the rear trying to clean it. After rinsing and swishing it with hot tap water I then pour in some of my mixed up sanitizer, swirl it around, dump it out and place a cap or rubber stopper on the carboy and stow it away. When it's needed again all that is needed to do is give it another rinse with sanitizer.


----------



## Riledup5 (Jan 23, 2021)

Rembee said:


> I also should have mentioned that once I empty out a vessel, plastic bucket or a glass carboy I rinse it out with hot tap water asap. Especially if there is lees in the bottom. It's much easier doing this... then allowing the sediment to dry out and then becoming a pain in the rear trying to clean it. After rinsing and swishing it with hot tap water I then pour in some of my mixed up sanitizer, swirl it around, dump it out and place a cap or rubber stopper on the carboy and stow it away. When it's needed again all that is needed to do is give it another rinse with sanitizer.


Thank you Rembee. I would agree 100% with rinsing everything out after you use it. I imagine it would be a pain in the ass to try to scrub off dried lees and I don't want to find out. I will gladly spend 5 minutes rinsing everything after use.


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 23, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Thank you Rembee. I would agree 100% with rinsing everything out after you use it. I imagine it would be a pain in the ass to try to scrub off dried lees and I don't want to find out. I will gladly spend 5 minutes rinsing everything after use.


you don't ever want to find out,,,
Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 5, 2021)

So, my Chardonnay has been sitting in the secondary vessel (i.e. - carboy) since 1/26. It looks really clear. Since this is my first batch, for that I am really happy! I know, according to the instructions, it still has to sit for 4 more days until I rack again into another carboy. At this point I am following instructions. BUT, I just couldn't help myself and did a taste test (as well as on the Pinot Noir, my 2nd batch). The Chardonnay tasted pretty sweet. Not Fast Time at Ridgemont High "Sweet", but literally sweet, and I am not a fan of sweet wine, and not necessarily a fan of Chard, but it's what my wife likes so I made it my first batch. So the question is, is this to be expected at this point? Final SG was 0.996.

The Pinot which has been sitting in the secondary since 1/26 as well, was still tasting pretty rough. My palate is not very refined/experienced, so I don't know quite how to describe it. Would you think this is expected at this point as well?


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 5, 2021)

@Riledup5, if the Chardonnay is at 0.996, you're not tasting sugar. It's almost certainly fruitiness.

Keep in mind that the taste now is nothing like it will be in a year. Your wines are 2 weeks old .... they are NOT going to impress you. Patience, Grasshopper.  

Every time you taste the wines, write down your impressions regarding aroma and taste. A year from now pull out all your notes and read them, first to last. You will be amazed, and in a good way.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 5, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Riledup5, if the Chardonnay is at 0.996, you're not tasting sugar. It's almost certainly fruitiness.
> 
> Keep in mind that the taste now is nothing like it will be in a year. Your wines are 2 weeks old .... they are NOT going to impress you. Patience, Grasshopper.
> 
> Every time you taste the wines, write down your impressions regarding aroma and taste. A year from now pull out all your notes and read them, first to last. You will be amazed, and in a good way.


Thank you! I appreciate it, but you are CRAZY of you think my first batch is gonna last a year!


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 5, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Thank you! I appreciate it, but you are CRAZY of you think my first batch is gonna last a year!


I was being polite. Besides, I told you to pull the notes out a year after bottling. I did not state there'd be any wine left ...
 

Seriously, do yourself a favor and stash 3 bottles of each batch, not to be opened. 

And when these are in the bottle, start 2 more batches. You're gonna need it .....


----------



## Scooter68 (Feb 5, 2021)

WInemaker81 Speaks the truth. 

Save at least one bottle for at least 18-24 months and you will be shocked how much better it tastes. 
My first batch of Blueberry wine was bottled at 4 1/2 months and first bottle consumed at 5 months. I was happy, or so I thought. When I opened the last bottle at about 12 months (It was just a 1 gallon/5 bottle batch). THEN I was embarrassed that I had shared that young IMMATURE wine with friends as a babe at 5 months.

Have never seen anyone post on here. "Ah I was so dissappointed when I opened that bottle of wine at 2 years." Unless it needed even more time aging.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 5, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I was being polite. Besides, I told you to pull the notes out a year after bottling. I did not state there'd be any wine left ...
> 
> 
> Seriously, do yourself a favor and stash 3 bottles of each batch, not to be opened.
> ...


I was just kidding. I will save some, especially if it tastes like this for a while


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 5, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> I was just kidding. I will save some, especially if it tastes like this for a while


Your first batches will go far faster than you believe. You'll blink and realize you're drinking that last bottle. There is excitement and pride of accomplishment -- in that haze the wine seems to evaporate.

Every person on this forum was a beginner and many remember what it felt like. May is the 40th anniversary of my first wine, a forgettable rhubarb made using bread yeast in a beer ball using a recipe from a local newspaper. Yet I remember the excitement of that first batch.

Sure, it's different, but I felt that excitement again when I crushed grapes in October and pressed them a week later. For some of us, that rush never goes away.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 9, 2021)

Just racked both my Chardonnay and Pinot Noir from secondary to another carboy. Your advice/thoughts is/are appreciated...

Chard: In the "secondary" the Chard got pretty clear. When I racked tonight, it was not nearly as clear as it was. Did I rack incorrectly, or is it normal to siphon some of the lees into the next carboy? Will it clear up on it's own? I added 1/4 tsp of KMeta. When I tasted and swished, I could feel some CO2. Is this normal or should it be completely degassed at this point? SG when I put in secondary was 0.996 and now is 0.995 (racked to secondary on 1/26). I topped off with like wine. Should I use solid bung or airlock?

Pinot Noir: Honestly, I cannot tell how clear it is. When a tasted on 2/5, I put it in a wine glass and it looked pretty clear. I cannot tell if it clouded up like the Chard. SG is still 0.992 (same as when I racked into secondary on 1/26). Added a 1/4 tsp of KMeta. Still tastes "off", as in not good at all. I wish I could explain, but again, my palette is not trained to detect exactly what it is. I topped off with a like wine and am currently enjoying the remainder of that "like wine". Again, should I use solid bung or airlock? Thoughts?

Thanks!


----------



## Robert R (Feb 9, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> WInemaker81 Speaks the truth.
> 
> Save at least one bottle for at least 18-24 months and you will be shocked how much better it tastes.
> My first batch of Blueberry wine was bottled at 4 1/2 months and first bottle consumed at 5 months. I was happy, or so I thought. When I opened the last bottle at about 12 months (It was just a 1 gallon/5 bottle batch). THEN I was embarrassed that I had shared that young IMMATURE wine with friends as a babe at 5 months.
> ...


About a month ago, I opened the last bottle of a CC Old Vine Zinfandel I made sometime in early 2016 and bottled around the end of 2017. It was _very_ good!


----------



## hounddawg (Feb 9, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Just racked both my Chardonnay and Pinot Noir from secondary to another carboy. Your advice/thoughts is/are appreciated...
> 
> Chard: In the "secondary" the Chard got pretty clear. When I racked tonight, it was not nearly as clear as it was. Did I rack incorrectly, or is it normal to siphon some of the lees into the next carboy? Will it clear up on it's own? I added 1/4 tsp of KMeta. When I tasted and swished, I could feel some CO2. Is this normal or should it be completely degassed at this point? SG when I put in secondary was 0.996 and now is 0.995 (racked to secondary on 1/26). I topped off with like wine. Should I use solid bung or airlock?
> 
> ...


airlocks to make sure your wine will degas,,, time will degas and try not to rack lees when your racking,, as for your taste, you'll lean, but you must remember that your wines are young, and with time they will mature, a young wine will taste a little ruff, yet after a year or two it will be so
much better
Dawg


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 9, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> airlocks to make sure your wine will degas,,, time will degas and try not to rack lees when your racking,, as for your taste, you'll lean, but you must remember that your wines are young, and with time they will mature, a young wine will taste a little ruff, yet after a year or two it will be so
> much better
> Dawg


Thanks dawg.... I tried not to siphon the lees and thought I did a good job. I guess my question is, is this normal? And should I again add clearing agents?


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 10, 2021)

@Riledup5, you probably sucked up some lees. It happens, and it will fix itself. Next racking, tilt the carboy and rack down to near sediment, making sure you don't suck any up. Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.

I'm definitely in favor of degassing, but if you've already degassed, you got most of it. Don't degas again -- time will finish the job.

I say no to solid bungs unless it's in a barrel where the wine is degassed and past MLF. A solid bung will blow if the pressure builds -- I had one pop out of a barrel when I was standing next to it ... scared the heck out of me! And taught me a good lesson.

Recently I started using vented bungs for my carboys, once the wine is fully degassed. If there is any activity, I want an airlock so I can see it, but once that's done the bung eliminates the need to watch the water level in the airlocks.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 10, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Riledup5, you probably sucked up some lees. It happens, and it will fix itself. Next racking, tilt the carboy and rack down to near sediment, making sure you don't suck any up. Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.
> 
> I'm definitely in favor of degassing, but if you've already degassed, you got most of it. Don't degas again -- time will finish the job.
> 
> ...


Thank you @winemaker81 I see it already starting to settle out, but still cloudy. My wife just told me yesterday that patience is not my strong suit  On average, how long does it take to settle out? Before I racked, the airlock wasn't bubbling at all, and the water level in the airlock was pretty even.


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 10, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> On average, how long does it take to settle out? Before I racked, the airlock wasn't bubbling at all, and the water level in the airlock was pretty even.



The gross lees settle pretty quickly on their own, and kieselsol/chitosan work in a matter of days. With the resettling? Impossible to tell. Unless you have more than a dusting, ignore it for 3 months. 

If you're not using a fining agent and not degassing, settling can take months. There isn't a solid answer on this, as there are too many factors.

At this point, there should be no (or very little) activity in the airlock.

If you're having a problem with patience, buy another dozen carboys and and start filling them. You'll always have something to mess with while letting the older batches do their thing. [I'm only partially joking on this ....]


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 10, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.


@winemaker81 I will do this, but it brings up a question. By not racking everything and putting an amount in the fridge for a week to settle, would that put the wine that got racked into the carboy in jeopardy from O2? How much (volume-wise) do you typically have to put in the fridge?


----------



## Scooter68 (Feb 10, 2021)

The volume you have to put into the fridge - It depends. If you can get the lees to settle nicely you might only have 12-20 oz. I just pulled a 16 oz bottle from the fridge after 3 days and I was able to return 5-6 oz to the batch using a turkey baster. That was from a batch that started out at 5.7 gallons of blackberry and is currently at about 4 gallons and 32 oz. ( 2x 16 oz bottles)

I would avoid putting the heavier lees into the fridge as thats where the off smells/taste can start. 

It all depends on your batch size and the type of fruit you are fermenting.

If fermentation and/or heavy CO2 gassing off is not going on, then your non-refrigerated container should be topped off or the wine moved to smaller containers so you can get headspace down to the proper levels. Even the refrigerated wine should be put in with as little headspace as possible.\

By the way the fridge should stall or stop fermentation - until the wine is back at room temp. Off-gassing can still occur. I opened a 1.2 gallon of wine stored in our fridge for about 4 months with tight top on it. When I losened the top - Fizzt! Definite gas pressure in there. Nothing major sort of like a 2 liter soda pop once opened and storred in the fridge for a week.


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 11, 2021)

@Riledup5, I agree with @Scooter68 -- don't pour the heavy sludge, just what pours easily. I was unclear on that point.

I plan batches so my primary container(s) will be full with more for necessary topup in smaller containers. 23 liter kits go into 19 liter carboys with the excess in smaller containers. I purchase 3 lugs (36 lbs/16 kg each) of fresh grapes so I can fill a 19 liter carboy.

Any time I run short (and regardless of my planning, it happens) I top with a compatible wine.

One example -- couple years ago I purchased an elderberry concentrate that was designed to dilute to 5 gallons. To stretch it, I purchased a liter of red grape concentrate and diluted the mix to 5.75 total gallons. If I didn't get the concentrate, I might have added another fruit (fresh or concentrate). Or topped the carboy with red wine ....

As Scooter said, the amount going into the fridge varies dramatically. If I have less then 375 ml, I don't usually bother with it as I'll recover very little wine. Last spring I filled a 1.5 liter bottle with sludge -- the lees compacted to about 1". This is extreme, I typically save about half.

*See this post* for pictures.

I aim for as little head space as possible in the bottle that goes into the fridge. However, given the cold temperature and the short duration, I've yet to have a problem with the saved wine. Please note that I always check the saved wine before using it, to ensure there are no problem.


----------



## Scooter68 (Feb 11, 2021)

100% agree with Winemaker81 - Planning ahead saves a lot of headaches but sometimes things just happen. My latest batch of Blackberry from a Wine base and a couple of lbs of Wild Blackberries started out at 5.7 gallons and now I've got 4 gallons and two 16 oz bottles of topping off backup. The 16oz bottle I put in the fridge gave me back 5-6 oz so sometimes it's not much. If I don't need that extra 5-6 oz I can play with it by adding some simple syrup to see how it will turn out (This is a 17.5% ABV Batch) 

So some things you can plan for others, you just have to wing it.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 11, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Riledup5, I agree with @Scooter68 -- don't pour the heavy sludge, just what pours easily. I was unclear on that point.
> 
> I plan batches so my primary container(s) will be full with more for necessary topup in smaller containers. 23 liter kits go into 19 liter carboys with the excess in smaller containers. I purchase 3 lugs (36 lbs/16 kg each) of fresh grapes so I can fill a 19 liter carboy.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that. I am about to rack a Sauv Blanc from primary into secondary and will definitely give that a try. I was surprised at how much like wine I had to use to top off. This should definitely help. Appreciate the advice!


----------



## RickD (Feb 11, 2021)

My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 11, 2021)

RickD said:


> My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.
> View attachment 71506


Ha! You're smarter than me. I never would have thought of turning the bung upside down! Brilliant! Learn something new everyday


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 11, 2021)

RickD said:


> My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.
> View attachment 71506


So I racked my Sauv Blanc and racked the very bottom of it into a 750mL wine bottle. I cannot get the inverted bung to stay on the bottle, the CO2 keeps popping it off. Suggestions?


----------



## hounddawg (Feb 12, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> So I racked my Sauv Blanc and racked the very bottom of it into a 750mL wine bottle. I cannot get the inverted bung to stay on the bottle, the CO2 keeps popping it off. Suggestions?


yep. you use a universal drilled bung and airlock it,,,
Dawg


----------



## hounddawg (Feb 12, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Riledup5, you probably sucked up some lees. It happens, and it will fix itself. Next racking, tilt the carboy and rack down to near sediment, making sure you don't suck any up. Then pour the remainder into a tall bottle and put in the fridge for a week to clear.
> 
> I'm definitely in favor of degassing, but if you've already degassed, you got most of it. Don't degas again -- time will finish the job.
> 
> ...


hum,,,, I'd heard talk of these for quite a spell about these bungs ,but since i did not research them,, this is the first one i have seen, 
Dawg


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 12, 2021)

RickD said:


> My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.


Looking at the amount of sediment you have, I'm guessing that you've got just enough wine to fill the jug once you've racked. I'd let the wine settle an extra few days for the lees to compact more, so you lose less volume.



hounddawg said:


> hum,,,, I'd heard talk of these for quite a spell about these bungs ,but since i did not research them,, this is the first one i have seen,


I really like the vented bungs. For the short term they aren't necessarily useful, but when bulk aging longer than 3 months? Yeah, IMO they're worth having simply to avoid having to watch the airlocks.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 12, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> yep. you use a universal drilled bung and airlock it,,,
> Dawg


I think I was not using enough force. I pushed down on it with a lot of force last night and that did the trick. Just checked this morning and it is already settling quite a bit.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 12, 2021)

RickD said:


> My first racking, blackberry (SG 0.993), topped off. My standard batch is 1.2 gallons but I might dial that back a bit once I learn what I'm doing.
> View attachment 71506


I see you have refrigerated both. The instruction from my WE kit say to have the temp warm (68 - 75) throughout the winemaking process. I see how the low temp would help settle the solids out. What do you more experienced folks do? Cold or warm?


----------



## RickD (Feb 12, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> So I racked my Sauv Blanc and racked the very bottom of it into a 750mL wine bottle. I cannot get the inverted bung to stay on the bottle, the CO2 keeps popping it off. Suggestions?


You may want to give the big I.D. (i.e., the bottle contact surface) of the universal bung a spritz of sanitizer first, then try working it down. Mine took quite a bit of force, but it went. And it is tight.


----------



## RickD (Feb 12, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> I see you have refrigerated both. The instruction from my WE kit say to have the temp warm (68 - 75) throughout the winemaking process. I see how the low temp would help settle the solids out. What do you more experienced folks do? Cold or warm?



That's not a fridge, that is my entire wine making facility (aging cellars not withstanding)!

.


----------



## RickD (Feb 12, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Looking at the amount of sediment you have, I'm guessing that you've got just enough wine to fill the jug once you've racked. I'd let the wine settle an extra few days for the lees to compact more, so you lose less volume.



That image was taken about an hour after racking from primary and adding Bentonite. I let that settle for a week before another lame-ass racking, and ended up with 1 gallon + about 450ml.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 12, 2021)

RickD said:


> That's not a fridge, that is my entire wine making facility (aging cellars not withstanding)!
> View attachment 71522
> .


Ahh... thanks for the clarification. I guess I should've looked a little closer, didn't have my coffee yet! Ha! Is the water to control temp? 

Brings up another question.... I've read that during aging (bulk or bottle) that teh ambient aire temp should be between 55 - 65. Thoughts on this?


----------



## RickD (Feb 12, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Ahh... thanks for the clarification. I guess I should've looked a little closer, didn't have my coffee yet! Ha! Is the water to control temp?
> 
> Brings up another question.... I've read that during aging (bulk or bottle) that teh ambient aire temp should be between 55 - 65. Thoughts on this?



Yes, the water is for temp control. That's a 50w aquarium heater in a Pyrex baking dish placed in a Sterilite brand plastic storage container (Wal-mart I believe)(had one on hand). Shown below with lid on.

55-65? Could be, I haven't looked into that yet, but if that is correct then it will never happen in my home! This might be a good thread: Ambient Temperature During Clearing and Aging | Wine Making Talk


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 12, 2021)

Oops... the kit instructions say to add kieselsol after racking, wait 24 hours, then add the chitosan. I did the reverse. I don't think it will cause any issues?


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 14, 2021)

Riledup5 said:


> Oops... the kit instructions say to add kieselsol after racking, wait 24 hours, then add the chitosan. I did the reverse. I don't think it will cause any issues?


Unfortunately yes -- often the wine won't clear properly. Others have reported that adding more kieselsol fixes the problem. I don't believe there is any harm caused.


----------



## Riledup5 (Feb 14, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Unfortunately yes -- often the wine won't clear properly. Others have reported that adding more kieselsol fixes the problem. I don't believe there is any harm caused.


I just got done doing a quick taste test on all 3 (Chard, Pinot Noir and the Sauv Blanc). @winemaker81 The Sauv Blanc seems to be clearing just fine even though I reversed the Kieselsol and Chitosan. Can someone tell me what that taste is right about now that I have tasted in all 3 wines? Below are the most recent notes for the Sauv Blanc that I am referring to the taste (the taste that the Chard seems to be dissipating). I am guessing that maybe is the Meta???

2/10/21
SG 0.993
Racked into carboy & degassed
Added Metabisulfite/sorbate package and degassed

The Chard seems to be gradually tasting more and more like actual wine, but still needs time. 

The Pinot Noir I think is going to need even more time than the Chard. From what I have read on this site, this seems to be normal for reds. Is that right?


----------



## winemaker81 (Feb 15, 2021)

It's great the Sauvignon Blanc is clearing. I've heard both ways, that the wine clears or it does not. Looks like the bread landed jam-side up for you!



Riledup5 said:


> Can someone tell me what that taste is right about now that I have tasted in all 3 wines?


Green (new) wines can have a variety of flavors, and may not taste good. For me at least, it's hard to describe. As long as you don't smell rotten eggs or taste vinegar, you're probably ok.

My 4 month old Sauvignon Blanc (from fresh juice) is just starting to taste good -- but it's a green wine, far from ready for drinking. I'll probably bottle in a couple of months and won't taste it for 3+ months after that. From what I've read, Sauvignon Blanc peaks at 2 to 3 years, so I'm not planning on keeping it long. Besides, I'm only going to have 15 bottles so it's not going to last long, anyway. [by "not long", I mean I expect that it will be gone by the 2 to 2.5 year mark, maybe sooner if I really like the younger wine.]

*This page* talks about Sauvignon Blanc.


----------

