# Non-Saccharomyces Yeast - First Impressions



## 4score (Oct 3, 2018)

First impressions of using Non-Saccharomyces yeast: We used a strain called Prelude from CHR HANSEN. Prelude is a pure strain of Torulaspora delbrueckii to be used in combination with your Saccharomyces cerevisiae strain of choice. This non-Saccharomyces yeast strain has been carefully selected to mimic successful wild ferments, increase aromatic complexity, enhance fresh fruit-forward wines, and develop a round mouthfeel. For wines fermented or aged in oak, Prelude bridges the gap between yeast derived compounds and oak flavors.
This specialty yeast is not intended to achieve complete alcoholic fermentation but to enhance wine complexity. Prelude has to be followed by a Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast of choice to achieve a safe and fast alcoholic fermentation.
We did two bins (1000 lbs each) of local Cab Franc. One bin used Prelude, followed by Avante yeast while the other bin used only traditional Avante yeast. The first thing we noticed was the incredible fermentation aromas coming from the Prelude bin. So much more fruity in comparison! Next observation was the time to complete fermentation. In our northern California location, we get hot early Fall temps and our fermentations last only 4 days usually. Using Prelude for the 1st 4 brix drop then using Avante, resulted in nearly a two-week fermentation and temps reaching a high of about 86 degrees. The traditional bin of Avante only yeast finished in 4.5 days and topped out with a 95 degree high! After pressing, we were AMAZED by the Prelude wine taste and aroma! We've made a LOT of wine since 2013 and several people commented that the Prelude just-pressed wine was the absolute BEST ever at this stage. It truly was already complex and the mouthfeel was heavier. The Avante was good and more of a predictable average for just-pressed wine. Finally, we took a carboy of each and compared the color (see picture). Oddly enough, the lighter wine on the right is the Prelude. I would have thought that it would be the darker one since the skins spent so much more contact time. Another theory is that the Prelude wine has a lower ABV thus contributing to a lighter color.
All in all, at this stage I am very happy with the result. I can't wait to continued monitoring as these two wines mature. So far, I am a believer of non-saccharomyces yeast!


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## pgentile (Oct 3, 2018)

I read about these non-sacc yeasts from CHR HANSEN when you mentioned them several months ago. Interesting to hear the differences are that noticeable between batches. Wish they sold these in smaller quantities.


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## stickman (Oct 3, 2018)

Maybe the darker color is from the higher peak temperature. I have also read that color often peaks between 5 and 8 days on the skins and then starts to drop back during longer maceration, though I haven't done any comparisons.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 3, 2018)

Thanks for sharing this. It’s extremely
interesting. 

Could you do us a favor and elaborate a little bit regarding the timeline and fill in some blanks?
Did you let the Perlude go for over a week dropping only 4 Brix?Once the Avante took over was it back to business and finished in a few days? And Was 4 Brix the plan?
And when I’m innoculating Avante was there any extra steps involved to help it take over the ferment?

Thanks man


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## CK55 (Oct 3, 2018)

That yeast is also used in beer fementation, as a brewer i have used it before, white labs also offers cultures of it.


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## pgentile (Oct 3, 2018)

CK55 said:


> That yeast is also used in beer fementation, as a brewer i have used it before, white labs also offers cultures of it.



Very interesting, you are correct the strain used on Prelude is the same as used in White Labs WLP603 for specialty/belgian beers/etc

https://www.gusmerwine.com/catalog/chr-hansen-yeast/prelude/

"Viniflora® Prelude™ is a pure strain of _Torulaspora delbrueckii_ "

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp603-torulaspora-delbrueckii

The White Labs product is only $9, but it seems out of stock the few places it's available


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## CK55 (Oct 3, 2018)

pgentile said:


> Very interesting, you are correct the strain used on Prelude is the same as used in White Labs WLP603 for specialty/belgian beers/etc
> 
> https://www.gusmerwine.com/catalog/chr-hansen-yeast/prelude/
> 
> ...


Yeah, I brew beer and make wine, it was sort of a natural progression to move from beer into wine. But I do still brew. One of my specialties is belgian, and or european dark lagers such as vienna lagers, real vienna lagers not that crap they make in mexico thats sort of a descendant of it. 

I have had issues getting it. I get a lot of the rarer yeasts from my contact at Imperial Yeast in Oregon.


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## NorCal (Oct 3, 2018)

The Prelude dropped brix from 26 to 22, before the Avante was added. The Prelude continued until being crowded out or hitting the alcohol limit, but say it consumed another 2 brix. This leaves the Avante with 20 brix to consume, resulting in a 11.5 % wine, plus any alcohol production from the Prelude.

My theory is that since the alcohol is a solvent and it was 30% lower, coupled with the reduced temperature, resulted in significantly less color extraction from the skins.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 3, 2018)

Could well be off-base here, but I wager that the carboy on the right (which looks lighter) just has more suspended solids in it at this point. The light does not get to penetrate as deeply, and the net result is that it looks lighter.

Time will tell!


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## jgareri (Oct 3, 2018)

Look at the sediment on the bottle. There's a big difference so the sediment concept could be pretty accurate


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## Slappy (Oct 4, 2018)

Did the wine with the prelude used not ferment as dry in the end? I'm confused why the alcohol is lower if the fruits the same and was finished with the same yeast (Avante). Very interesting the differences in the wine at this stage I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.


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## balatonwine (Oct 4, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Could well be off-base here, but I wager that the carboy on the right (which looks lighter) just has more suspended solids in it at this point. The light does not get to penetrate as deeply, and the net result is that it looks lighter.
> 
> Time will tell!



Yes, time will tell.

However.... your comment is an excellent example of exposing simplistic observations and potential unallowed extrapolation, versus actual cause and effect.

That is claiming "I used XYZ and this is what I saw, therefore ABC is true ....." versus, what may be the real (and possible different) cause of the observation.


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## balatonwine (Oct 4, 2018)

4score said:


> First impressions of using Non-Saccharomyces yeast: We used a strain called Prelude from CHR HANSEN. Prelude is a pure strain of Torulaspora delbrueckii to be used in combination with your Saccharomyces cerevisiae strain of choice. This non-Saccharomyces yeast strain has been carefully selected to mimic successful wild ferments, increase aromatic complexity, enhance fresh fruit-forward wines, and develop a round mouthfeel. For wines fermented or aged in oak, Prelude bridges the gap between yeast derived compounds and oak flavors.



This read so much like a sponsored ad, I almost did not continue reading the rest of the post.....


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## NorCal (Oct 4, 2018)

Excellent observation. The Avante did have more time to clear, since it finished fermentation earlier.


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## NorCal (Oct 4, 2018)

Slappy said:


> Did the wine with the prelude used not ferment as dry in the end? I'm confused why the alcohol is lower if the fruits the same and was finished with the same yeast (Avante). Very interesting the differences in the wine at this stage I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.


The non saccharomyces yeast consumes the sugar but is much less efficient at converting the sugar to alcohol. How much so, I can’t find any data on.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 4, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Could well be off-base here, but I wager that the carboy on the right (which looks lighter) just has more suspended solids in it at this point. The light does not get to penetrate as deeply, and the net result is that it looks lighter.
> 
> Time will tell!



I don't think you are off base at all. My fall OVZ was much lighter when racked a day after pressing then the Syrah. The skins in the Zin were much softer and produced a lot more sediment. Now 2 weeks or so later the Zin is nearly as dark as the Syrah. I've read posts about filtering making wine lighter to the contrary I believe it makes it darker as you said due to light penetration. I've started filtering my reds with a 1 micron filter.

Now back to topic, very interesting @4score.


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## pgentile (Oct 4, 2018)

NorCal said:


> The non saccharomyces yeast consumes the sugar but is much less efficient at converting the sugar to alcohol. How much so, I can’t find any data on.



Here is an evaluation of non-sacc yeasts with a sugar consumed % for each strain in their test.

https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/80/5/1670.full.pdf


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## Ajmassa (Oct 4, 2018)

@4score - got another question for ya. 

Since these 2 ferments had such different timelines, I would assume the Avante batch was pressed after 4-5 days. Then racked a few days later. 
And the prelude/Avante batch pressed much later. 
So at the time of the picture the Avante batch had time to settle and darken. The Avante batch still fresh from pressing (did you gross lees rack yet?) therefore causing the difference in color. 
Is this the case— or have they both been racked off lees and had time to settle?


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## sour_grapes (Oct 4, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> However.... your comment is an excellent example of exposing simplistic observations and potential unallowed extrapolation, versus actual cause and effect.



I disagree. My comment, which clearly conveyed speculation as to the possible cause, differs significantly from your characterization of it.

I offered my speculation because it appeared not to have occurred to @4score , who was actively casting about for explanations for his observation. In other words, I was trying to be _useful_ to him.


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## Johnd (Oct 4, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> In other words, I was trying to be _useful_ to him.



You do so quite well in my opinion.


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## NorCal (Oct 4, 2018)

pgentile said:


> Here is an evaluation of non-sacc yeasts with a sugar consumed % for each strain in their test.
> 
> https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/80/5/1670.full.pdf


Thanks. Reading through this, my take away is that the reduction in alcohol would generally be in the 1-2% range when the must is started with a non-sacc and finished with a sacc yeast. In the neighborhood of 10% abv reduction, not 30% reduction I surmised because the non-sacc still is producing alcohol, albeit less efficient, before it hits its 9% abv limit.


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## 4score (Oct 4, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Thanks for sharing this. It’s extremely
> interesting.
> 
> Could you do us a favor and elaborate a little bit regarding the timeline and fill in some blanks?
> ...



Here's the data:

*Prelude + Avante Bin:*
9/8, 10 pm, brix 26, Prelude
9/9, 10 pm, brix 25
9/10, 10 pm, brix 22.5 (3.5 brix change), added Avante
9/11, 9 am, brix 20.5
9/11, 10 pm brix 17.5
9/12, 8 am, brix 16
9/12, 3 pm, brix 14.5
9/13, 10 am, brix 11.5, Temp 87
9/14, 8 am, brix 8, Temp 84
9/15, 9 am, brix 6
9/16, 3 pm, brix 3.5
9/17, 3 pm, brix 2.5 (pressed)
9/18, 11 am, brix 2.5 (uh oh...stuck?)
9/19, 11 am, brix 1.5 (whew)
9/20, 1 pm, brix 1.0
9/21, 9 am, brix 0.5 (eventually brix negative 0.5)

*Avante (only) Bin:*
9/9, 12 pm, brix 26, Avante
9/10, 6 am, brix 25.5
9/10, 12 pm, brix 22.5
9/10, 10 pm, brix 19.5 Temp 86
9/11, 7 pm, brix 16
9/11, 10 pm, brix 9.5 Temp 95 (WOW)
9/12, 9 pm, brix 4.0
9/13, 10 am, brix 2.5 Temp 88
9/14, 8 am, brix 1.5
9/14, 6 PM, brix 0

In the Prelude/Avante bin, there were no extra steps when I pitched the Avante. I used the same procedure with Go Ferm and temp protocols.


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## 4score (Oct 4, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @4score - got another question for ya.
> 
> Since these 2 ferments had such different timelines, I would assume the Avante batch was pressed after 4-5 days. Then racked a few days later.
> And the prelude/Avante batch pressed much later.
> ...



Good point. The Prelude/Avante batch settled for 3 or 4 days before racking. The Avante (only) batch was racked 1 day after pressing.


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## balatonwine (Oct 5, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I disagree. My comment, which clearly conveyed speculation as to the possible cause, differs significantly from your characterization of it.
> 
> I offered my speculation because it appeared not to have occurred to @4score , who was actively casting about for explanations for his observation. In other words, I was trying to be _useful_ to him.



I stand corrected. You know best what you meant to write. Mea culpa.

But, I stand by my "characterization" as to the OP's conclusions (my word, perhaps biased by this post's "advertisement tone") -- which you call "casting about for explanations". Despite nomenclature --- groping for causation of observations, before full results are in, is not yet warranted at this time. Which was my point.


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## Stressbaby (Oct 5, 2018)

The first question I had was this: what is the end product of sugar metabolism if it is not ethanol?

Looking at the article it seems that the answer might be higher alcohols and ethyl acetate.

My next questions are: 1) what are the odds that we can mimic this effect using natural yeast? In other words, let natural yeast go ferment down 4 Brix, then pitch S. cerevisiae? 2) how can one get a 5g packet of Prelude?


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## 4score (Oct 5, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> I stand corrected. You know best what you meant to write. Mea culpa.
> 
> But, I stand by my "characterization" as to the OP's conclusions (my word, perhaps biased by this post's "advertisement tone") -- which you call "casting about for explanations". Despite nomenclature --- groping for causation of observations, before full results are in, is not yet warranted at this time. Which was my point.



I didn't have "conclusions" - just observations and ideas


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## 4score (Oct 5, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> This read so much like a sponsored ad, I almost did not continue reading the rest of the post.....


I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude. This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".


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## mainshipfred (Oct 5, 2018)

4score said:


> I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude. This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".



I think the vast majority took it as you intended and appreciated your information.


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## 4score (Oct 5, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> The first question I had was this: what is the end product of sugar metabolism if it is not ethanol?
> 
> Looking at the article it seems that the answer might be higher alcohols and ethyl acetate.
> 
> My next questions are: 1) what are the odds that we can mimic this effect using natural yeast? In other words, let natural yeast go ferment down 4 Brix, then pitch S. cerevisiae? 2) how can one get a 5g packet of Prelude?



Good questions. Did you see in that article that with the Chardonnay, it seems you can get too much of a good thing. I believe they mentioned the aromas turning to nail polish remover! This may be why the manufacturer says start with Non-sacc yeast only for 1 to 3 days or a few degrees drop in Brix before going with the conventional yeast.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 5, 2018)

4score said:


> I didn't have "conclusions" - just observations and ideas



Is that why you titled your thread, "Non-Saccharomyces Yeast -* First Impressions*" ?


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## cmason1957 (Oct 5, 2018)

4score said:


> I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude. This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".



I am going to guess that the vast majority of us read the initial post as - I'm using this new thing, Here's what the manufacturer of this says it does and why I wanted to try using it. I suppose one thing that might have made it more obvious that those weren't your words, would have been to put them in quotes, separated out, but I think most folks who have read any of the literature recognized it for what it was. and when a post says First Impressions, I always expect lots of speculation about almost anything.


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## CDrew (Oct 5, 2018)

I think experiments are great and the way to move forward in almost any endeavor. Please keep posting impressions as you go. Two stage/ 2 yeast fermentation is not something I would have otherwise considered.

I will also say that this thread was the thing that made me go and find some Avante yeast. From reading it looked like an ideal strain, your experience was good, and since I was off on Monday I drove to Lodi Wine Labs and bought 100 grams of Avante for the Pitite Sirahand Cabernet I'll get this weekend. So thanks for posting!

BTW-the very nice folks at Lodi WIne Lab did not have any smaller quantities for me and took a 500 gram pouch, weighed out 100 grams and I was on my way. Very nice operation. For anyone reading who wants to try Avante, I know they have 400 grams in bulk that I'm sure they would be happy to weigh out for you! And it was less than $15 for 100 grams.


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## 4score (Oct 5, 2018)

CDrew said:


> I think experiments are great and the way to move forward in almost any endeavor. Please keep posting impressions as you go. Two stage/ 2 yeast fermentation is not something I would have otherwise considered.
> 
> I will also say that this thread was the thing that made me go and find some Avante yeast. From reading it looked like an ideal strain, your experience was good, and since I was off on Monday I drove to Lodi Wine Labs and bought 100 grams of Avante for the Pitite Sirahand Cabernet I'll get this weekend. So thanks for posting!
> 
> BTW-the very nice folks at Lodi WIne Lab did not have any smaller quantities for me and took a 500 gram pouch, weighed out 100 grams and I was on my way. Very nice operation. For anyone reading who wants to try Avante, I know they have 400 grams in bulk that I'm sure they would be happy to weigh out for you! And it was less than $15 for 100 grams.



I've always had great service from Lodi Wine Labs. Plus, their pricing is very good for yearly supplies.


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## NorCal (Oct 5, 2018)

I can't wait to taste the difference! I appreciate @4score's doing the research and ambition to try something new and then committing a good portion of his grapes this season to this non-traditional approach.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 5, 2018)

CDrew said:


> BTW-the very nice folks at Lodi WIne Lab did not have any smaller quantities for me and took a 500 gram pouch, weighed out 100 grams and I was on my way. Very nice operation. For anyone reading who wants to try Avante, I know they have 400 grams in bulk that I'm sure they would be happy to weigh out for you! And it was less than $15 for 100 grams.



I bought it last year but didn’t use it. So Avante gets the nod this year. Another week or so for cab to come in. 
And Lodi labs actually sells it online in smaller quantities. 8g, 60g and 500g amounts I believe. 
I bought a bunch of 8g on sale for $1 last summer


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## balatonwine (Oct 6, 2018)

4score said:


> I can assure you - I am no way involved with the manufacture, sale or distribution of Prelude.



Good to know. But, IMHO, then just the name of the product and source where you purchased/manufacturer for more information is enough. Let those links be your "prelude". Else, clearly state at the start you have no affiliation before going into a detailed "prelude" of your own.

Why? Because the world is awash with ads. So, right or wrong -- sadly or not, one today needs to state clearly when you are not a hidden ad for a product, or others might assume (right or wrong) you are.



4score said:


> This is what annoys me about these forums....when people take simple exchanges of information "sideways".



One's presentation has consequences**. And leads to others interpretations of motive, et al, even if not intentional; unless you clearly state at the start your affiliation or lack of affiliation. Which you did not (at first, only when I questioned it -- to draw out the facts by the way -- and thanks for finally clarifying that fact). So don't be annoyed ..... rather simply learn how to properly present your position when discussing a product in a direct, non-obtuse manner that clearly shows you are not affiliated with the product. If you simply do that, there will be no "sideways" issues at all. IMHO, basic forum post etiquette -- Acknowledge and move one. 


** Good grief, what I write is not always clear to others and I personally accept that others may "read" it differently than I intended. I never get annoyed. Rather, I appreciate how others can "translate" my posts into something more understandable to others of a similar mind set and perspective that they have, which may be different than my mind set and perspective. And if someone else reads something in a way I did not intend, I assume by default it was my error for not being clear in my intent -- that is I don't first blame others for their interpretation, but rather try to clarify then try to move on. In other words -- not everyone will see the world the same as you do. The written word can not always convey all the subtle issues in your mind that you intended when you write something. Embrace that difference, and adapt to it -- it can make you a better writer at forums. Don't get "annoyed" by it. That just gets you annoyed, and what fun is that?


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## balatonwine (Oct 6, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Is that why you titled your thread, "Non-Saccharomyces Yeast -* First Impressions*" ?



LOL!!!! Seriously, what is the point of that comment? 

As if no one has ever had that title of a blot post, forum post, youtube video and was not paid for it, despite its relevance.... Maybe to push a product or idea using such subtle terminology. Anyone can write anything.

After all, my *first impression* of this post was it was an unpaid ad. Is my opinion worth less than yours?  

Seriously, a title alone means nothing except for the terminally naive or those born yesterday. 

Maybe you are too trusting or I am too much a sync. Who knows. C'est la vie.

But I take with all sincerity the OP's final assertion there is no affiliation. So for me, this issue is closed. No affiliation. For me that issue is answered and ended with satisfaction (after I pressed for clarification).


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## balatonwine (Oct 6, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I suppose one thing that might have made it more obvious that those weren't your words, would have been to put them in quotes, separated out,



I agree. This would have been indeed a good idea.



cmason1957 said:


> but I think most folks who have read any of the literature recognized it for what it was



As someone who had never heard of this product, and who had not read this literature, I could not recognize it "for what it was". That is, not everyone who comes here is familiar with a product and even "first impressions" should not assume such. And "many here" (which is an opinion maybe of many frequent posters (a smaller circle than "most folks" -- and I would wager "most folks" around the planet have never heard of this product)) may not be the entire generic world viewership who may not be members or even frequent posters -- ergo -- many comments here may not represent "most folks". And it is, IMOH, best to always try to write to "most folks**, not just those "in the know". Just saying. That is, don't make a forum elitist, if one can avoid it.

** Easier said than done. We can all use some external input to help with our "most folks" writing style. Those that think otherwise may be just arrogant.


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## 4score (Oct 6, 2018)

Wow, who knew I could learn so much !


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## Stressbaby (Oct 6, 2018)

Everyone who spends any time on this forum at all knows @4score and @NorCal are home winemaking buddies and aren't here to promote a product.

Man, some people on this forum need to lighten the **** up.

@4score, please keep us updated on this, it's the best kind of post.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 6, 2018)

I am glad we now have a self appointed post advisor to give us feedback when our post style isn't quite up to his standards.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 6, 2018)

NorCal said:


> I can't wait to taste the difference! I appreciate @4score's doing the research and ambition to try something new and then committing a good portion of his grapes this season to this non-traditional approach.



Even though partnered up on grapes, the longer I’m here the more I realize how different both of your tendencies can be. The Ernie to your Burt! Does this go beyond winemaking?!? Let’s start with political views———- errrr—-just kidding.....obviously. Already enough sideways movement. 
From the donated oversulfited barrel- one bottled- one went flex tank with staves. Or Non sac experiment to a micro bin. And Oak powder crush addition. 
Btw- @4score - did you continue the oak powder addition at crush like last year? In May I did a split batch- w/ and w/o oak chips. Not a true test since also different yeasts, but the d254 oak chip AF had much more complexity and huge nose in comparison to D80 no oak. Blended last night.


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## 4score (Oct 6, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> Everyone who spends any time on this forum at all knows @4score and @NorCal are home winemaking buddies and aren't here to promote a product.
> 
> Man, some people on this forum need to lighten the **** up.
> 
> @4score, please keep us updated on this, it's the best kind of post.



Thanks. Yes - I look forward to following up with the differences between these two wines in this non-sacc experiment. @NorCal suggested that I send a couple samples to Lodi Wine Lab to check the alcohol. I think I may do that just to see how much less ABV the Prelude wine may have. I'll let MLF run its course first. I should add that @NorCal and I also shared grapes for a batch of Viognier. I used Prelude there too so that will be another one to compare (to his).

I love this forum for sharing ideas, trials, experiments, advice, achievements and information. When people get off-topic and start lecturing "about the post" - that's the kind of "advice" that I personally just filter through until we get back on topic.


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## 4score (Oct 6, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Even though partnered up on grapes, the longer I’m here the more I realize how different both of your tendencies can be. The Ernie to your Burt! Does this go beyond winemaking?!? Let’s start with political views———- errrr—-just kidding.....obviously. Already enough sideways movement.
> From the donated oversulfited barrel- one bottled- one went flex tank with staves. Or Non sac experiment to a micro bin. And Oak powder crush addition.
> Btw- @4score - did you continue the oak powder addition at crush like last year? In May I did a split batch- w/ and w/o oak chips. Not a true test since also different yeasts, but the d254 oak chip AF had much more complexity and huge nose in comparison to D80 no oak. Blended last night.


YES - good point on the oak dust! That's another difference. I used the "chips" on each fermentation. Crushed right on top!

Glad you saw some possible improvements....or at least, a new version!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 6, 2018)

4score said:


> YES - good point on the oak dust! That's another difference. I used the "chips" on each fermentation. Crushed right on top!
> 
> Glad you saw some possible improvements....or at least, a new version!


Last year’s video of filling the bin was pretty cool. 

“At least, a new version”. Lol. Clever wording. 

A shame No way to tell if the differences were more yeast or oak or a combo. Im still undecided which direction to go next wknd. And if oaking- which tannin powder to use? There’s so many. It’s cab sav clone#8 from Paso Robles. Any suggestions?

Non-sac yeast definitely sounds like something I’ll be attempting at some point. Looks like you’ve been reading up on it for a few months at least. I’m sure I’ll dive into the research sooner or later.


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## NorCal (Oct 6, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Even though partnered up on grapes, the longer I’m here the more I realize how different both of your tendencies can be. The Ernie to your Burt! Does this go beyond winemaking?!? Let’s start with political views———- errrr—-just kidding.....obviously. Already enough sideways movement.


Politically we are spot on, but our approach to wine making is quite different. Not better or worse, just different. I would say I’m analytical, attention to detail and risk averse, where @4score is willing to try new things and has a keen sense of what it takes to make an excellent wine. His best of show at the CA State Fair is proof.
Funny story, we both entered the same wine in a local country fair. We made it together, bottled together...they were the same exact wine. My bottle won best of show, his didn’t even ribbon. Still get a chuckle with that one.


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## Johnd (Oct 6, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> After all, my *first impression* of this post was it was an unpaid ad. Is my opinion worth less than yours?



First impressions are overrated, though mine of you has proven to be sound, asinine post after asinine post.

Here, everyone has a right to an opinion, right or wrong, everything doesn’t need to be attacked, ripped apart ad nauseum just so you can prove your point. To me, that makes your opinions worth way less than the OP, but that’s my opinion. Try to exercise some admirable qualities, couth comes to mind, so does discretion. Maybe even some good old “mom” lessons like: “If you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all”, or maybe some wise words like “Discretion is the better part of valor”.

I really don’t care what you thought of the original post, or really anything you take the time to grace the forum with, more often than not your posts are offensive and combative. It’s not the job of @4score to inform you that he’s not advertising, he’s been here way longer than you. If you don’t like a thread, don’t read it.

It’s kinda sad, you seem to have good winemaking experience and skills, if only you could learn to share them productively, you could be an asset to your fellow forum members, instead of a distraction.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 6, 2018)

NorCal said:


> Politically we are spot on, but our approach to wine making is quite different. Not better or worse, just different. I would say I’m analytical, attention to detail and risk averse, where @4score is willing to try new things and has a keen sense of what it takes to make an excellent wine. His best of show at the CA State Fair is proof.



I, too, love the fact that you guys take the same grapes and vinify them differently. It's a nice exercise!


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## ceeaton (Oct 6, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I, too, love the fact that you guys take the same grapes and vinify them differently. It's a nice exercise!


Yes, it makes me tired just reading all of this, nice exercise for sure!

I think I need to get another beer to build up my strength.


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## MB wino (Nov 18, 2018)

Interesting post - thanks for the info!

Updates please!


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## Ajmassa (Nov 18, 2018)

MB wino said:


> Interesting post - thanks for the info!
> 
> Updates please!



Speak of the devil and he shall appear!

ABV results after using non-saccharomyces yeast
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/inde...ts-after-using-non-saccharomyces-yeast.67466/


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