# Why does this happen



## sampvt (Feb 7, 2016)

I spent hours degassing and testing for the pft using the small bottle test and bottled when no gas was present and all was well. I properly killed of the yeast and stabilised and filtered it correctly, yet.............When I open a bottle of wine and pour some out then vacuvin the rest, all these little bubble come racing up to the top and if I shake the bottle and acuvin the bottle by extracting the air using my pump, I get loads of bubbles coming up. I cant taste that the wine has gas in it so what are these bubbles that appear. 

Just for a test, I uncorked one bottle, did not pour anything out, I just acuvined it with the vacuum pump and nothing, after I shook the wine slightly, the bubbles came up in force, what is this.


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## hounddawg (Feb 7, 2016)

did you bulk age an if so how long did you bulk age
Richard


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## richmke (Feb 7, 2016)

sampvt said:


> I spent hours degassing and testing for the pft using the small bottle test and bottled when no gas was present and all was well



Too much active degassing can be harmful. You risk introducing O2 while trying to drive out CO2.

I am guessing that you are trying to bottle relatively soon (1-2 months?). Can you let your wine age longer (6-9 months)?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 7, 2016)

richmke said:


> Too much active degassing can be harmful. You risk introducing O2 while trying to drive out CO2.
> 
> I am guessing that you are trying to bottle relatively soon (1-2 months?). Can you let your wine age longer (6-9 months)?



Please describe "to much active Degassing" would this be Stirring, or would it include using a vacuum pump also?

Thanks!

Edit: Please look at post #11. Thanks.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 7, 2016)

Vacuum degas sing cannot add oxygen to your wine.


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## Julie (Feb 7, 2016)

How did you kill the yeast?


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## cpfan (Feb 7, 2016)

sampvt ... can you feel the bubbles on your tongue when you drink it? If not, you're ok.

Steve


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## sampvt (Feb 7, 2016)

cpfan said:


> sampvt ... can you feel the bubbles on your tongue when you drink it? If not, you're ok.
> 
> Steve



There is no mouth feel or tang on the tongue, the wine feels ok on the front of the tongue but it has a bit of a kick at the back of the tongue. Similar to a mild rear mouth kick. My wife says its tastes better than the last lot in terms of fruitiness and taste but it catches a bit at the back of the mouth as its swallowed. In saying that, its not an acidic twang, its more of an excessive fruity zap which I like and she dosent, lol.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 7, 2016)

DoctorCAD said:


> Vacuum degas sing cannot add oxygen to your wine.



Oops! 
This is what I thought .

Thanks!


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## sampvt (Feb 8, 2016)

I didn't mention active degassing, rickme did. Im uessing he is referring to the way I degass. I first put the mix in a big 50l bucket and degass it with a drill and an attachment purpose built for degassing. I then put a vacuum on a 30l glass carboy and transfer the mix which is under vacuum. I then let this sit for a short while (24hrs) then I use the gravity bottle feed tool to bottle it into demijohns and bulk age for around 3 months then I bottle again using the bottling tool that does not allow air.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

sampvt said:


> I didn't mention active degassing, rickme did. Im uessing he is referring to the way I degass. I first put the mix in a big 50l bucket and degass it with a drill and an attachment purpose built for degassing. I then put a vacuum on a 30l glass carboy and transfer the mix which is under vacuum. I then let this sit for a short while (24hrs) then I use the gravity bottle feed tool to bottle it into demijohns and bulk age for around 3 months then I bottle again using the bottling tool that does not allow air.



Thanks.
I also use a vacuum pump which leaves around 3/8 of an inch, of bubbles.

I also use the drill with attachment (fast stirring effect), Bubbles will be at 1 1/2 inches.

But with the spoon the bubbles will rise twice as much if not, more. 3 to 4 inches. Which strikes me as very odd.

One would think the drill would make the most bubbles. More of a "active degassing", as some one might say.

Thanks!!


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## richmke (Feb 8, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Please describe "to much active Degassing" would this be Stirring, or would it include using a vacuum pump also?



Primarily stirring, especially with a drill.

That said, I would still try to minimize the agitation of the wine, including racking with a vacuum pump.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

richmke said:


> Primarily stirring, especially with a drill.
> 
> That said, I would still try to minimize the agitation of the wine, including racking with a vacuum pump.



Thanks!

This area is where I seem to, fail at understanding, must be that "when it feels right" thing.

Thanks,


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## heatherd (Feb 8, 2016)

Time may be the best thing - your wine will degass on it's own if you bulk age it.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

richmke said:


> Primarily stirring, especially with a drill.
> 
> That said, I would still try to minimize the agitation of the wine, including racking with a vacuum pump.



Ok, would the Vinmetrica Sc-300 be the best way to know when to stop degassing during the secondary?


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## Johnd (Feb 8, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Ok, would the Vinmetrica Sc-300 be the best way to know when to stop degassing during the secondary?



No, that would help you measure Ph, SO2, and TA.

If you're using an electric vacuum pump or brake bleeder with a guage, when you can maintain a vacuum of 25 inHg, call it done. As mentioned in other posts, that number could vary based upon your altitude.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

Johnd said:


> No, that would help you measure Ph, SO2, and TA.
> 
> If you're using an electric vacuum pump or brake bleeder with a guage, when you can maintain a vacuum of 25 inHg, call it done. As mentioned in other posts, that number could vary based upon your altitude.



I use the AllInOne Maybe I can get a gauge for it.

Does any know if there is a gauge for it??


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## sampvt (Feb 8, 2016)

I would also like to know how many inhg's the pump pulls if anyone knows. Ive been told its near 25 but no confirmation as yet.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 8, 2016)

sampvt said:


> I would also like to know how many inhg's the pump pulls if anyone knows. Ive been told its near 25 but no confirmation as yet.



Well, you can read here and the posts that follow: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=571320&postcount=14


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## sampvt (Feb 8, 2016)

My home made setup is a fresherpak pro vacuum food saver machine which has an outlet for the purpose of extracting air from individual purpose built food containers. This particular machine has a .8 bar or 34 inhg suction pump. I use it to suck the air out of a 25l carboy and then through a valve I allow the tube to syphon out my wine into the vacuumed carboy from another 25l glass carboy. I simply then swap them round and run the mix 4 times back and forward before bulk aging in glass demijohns.

This is the same way the allinone pump works and my setup cost only $85 all in with everything.


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## Johnd (Feb 8, 2016)

sampvt said:


> My home made setup is a fresherpak pro vacuum food saver machine which has an outlet for the purpose of extracting air from individual purpose built food containers. This particular machine has a .8 bar or 34 inhg suction pump. I use it to suck the air out of a 25l carboy and then through a valve I allow the tube to syphon out my wine into the vacuumed carboy from another 25l glass carboy. I simply then swap them round and run the mix 4 times back and forward before bulk aging in glass demijohns.
> 
> This is the same way the allinone pump works and my setup cost only $85 all in with everything.



Very innovative and multipurpose, I like it!!! At any rate, I'm sure Steve will chime in about the vacuum specs on his pump, I understand it works very well, and is also multipurpose. 
In my experience, when you can hold the 25 inHg pressure, the wine is degassed. I know you can accomplish the same with time in a carboy. I personally want to get my wine into my barrels as soon as I can, and I want it clear before it goes in, my preference, so it needs to have no gas to clear. 

When wines are free from CO2 and above 72F, the sediment falls out more quickly than wine with gas, whether you use fining agents or not. Gassy wine doesn't clear well, if at all. I've degassed red wines that were made with grape packs, no fining, and had them crystal clear in 40 days, some take 4 months, some longer, they're finicky lovers, just let the wine guide your actions. If you're shooting for good wines with good kits, you gotta wait a year plus anyway, don't be in a hurry. 

Degas, don't degas, fining agents, no fining agents, agitate, hand pump, vacuum pump, whatever, find YOUR happy spot and go with it. Try other folks stuff, see how you like it, stay inside proven practices, but just do what works for you, in your place, with your resources, and make a lot of wine!!!


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## Tnuscan (Feb 8, 2016)

sampvt said:


> My home made setup is a fresherpak pro vacuum food saver machine which has an outlet for the purpose of extracting air from individual purpose built food containers. This particular machine has a .8 bar or 34 inhg suction pump. I use it to suck the air out of a 25l carboy and then through a valve I allow the tube to syphon out my wine into the vacuumed carboy from another 25l glass carboy. I simply then swap them round and run the mix 4 times back and forward before bulk aging in glass demijohns.
> 
> This is the same way the allinone pump works and my setup cost only $85 all in with everything.



I have had the ALLInOne, for 3 or 4 years and love it, Today I received the "Head Space Eliminator"(3 of them), I believe my prayers have been answered. 
I have been torn up for a couple weeks, over the headspace in my carboy.,(I make mountains out of mole hills, I know)- no one like mole hills; everyone likes mountains-lol, I have more 6gallon carboys than 5's. Let me just say this......

My hat's off to you Steve you've done some creative thinking. 

If I owned any kind of vacuum pump I'd definitely have a couple of these.

Right now I'm a very happy camper(so relieved)..

Thanks


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## sour_grapes (Feb 8, 2016)

sampvt said:


> My home made setup is a fresherpak pro vacuum food saver machine which has an outlet for the purpose of extracting air from individual purpose built food containers. This particular machine has a .8 bar or 34 inhg suction pump. I use it to suck the air out of a 25l carboy and then through a valve I allow the tube to syphon out my wine into the vacuumed carboy from another 25l glass carboy. I simply then swap them round and run the mix 4 times back and forward before bulk aging in glass demijohns.
> 
> This is the same way the allinone pump works and my setup cost only $85 all in with everything.



Just to clarify, as I think you had a simple typo: 0.8 bar would be ~24 inHg, not 34.


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## sampvt (Feb 11, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Just to clarify, as I think you had a simple typo: 0.8 bar would be ~24 inHg, not 34.



In actual fact it was a typo but no my problems seem to have been solved, im a clux and have screwed everything up. Let me explain......

I bought a fresherpax food saver that claims to have .8 of a bar suction which is 25inhg. I hooked it all up ad have been degassing my wines as normal and quite happy but now \I am seeing bubbles in the bottles so my fears were that \I had not degassed it properly but that couldn't be, or could it.....

I received a 30inhg suction valve today proceded to check the pressure my pump was working on, needless to say I should never have trusted the manufacturers data, the dam thing only sucks at 11inhg, not 25 as they claimed.

I had no reason to doubt them because it does suck the air out f the carboy and when the tap is opened, it does empty from one to the other but now I realise at only 11inhg. Now im thinking that 11inhg isn't enough and ive got partly degassed wine in my bottles. 

Have I screwed up and can I retrieve it or d I just go back to whipping it again and forget the vacuum method


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## Johnd (Feb 11, 2016)

sampvt said:


> In actual fact it was a typo but no my problems seem to have been solved, im a clux and have screwed everything up. Let me explain......
> 
> I bought a fresherpax food saver that claims to have .8 of a bar suction which is 25inhg. I hooked it all up ad have been degassing my wines as normal and quite happy but now \I am seeing bubbles in the bottles so my fears were that \I had not degassed it properly but that couldn't be, or could it.....
> 
> ...



The vacuum is the simplest, quickest method to degas if you don't want to wait for your wine to degas and clear, BUT, you have to have enough horsepower to get the job done. 11 inHg won't cut it, my VP pulls 30 inHg.

As for your wine, did it get clear before you bottled it? If you get a proper vacuum pump, suppose you could pop the cork, degas each bottle and put a new cork back in, or dump them all back into a carboy, degas, bottle and cork.


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## TheWinoandIknow (Feb 11, 2016)

I degassed my wine last night with the drill/whip in the carboy. I would say I did a total of 20 minutes off and on. Is there a way to tell that the wine is properly degassed when your finished using the drill? I will be bulk aging it so I'm not really worried about it being gassy. Just wondering if you guys have length of time you use as a guideline for degassing with the drill.


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## AZMDTed (Feb 11, 2016)

TheWinoandIknow said:


> I degassed my wine last night with the drill/whip in the carboy. I would say I did a total of 20 minutes off and on. Is there a way to tell that the wine is properly degassed when your finished using the drill? I will be bulk aging it so I'm not really worried about it being gassy. Just wondering if you guys have length of time you use as a guideline for degassing with the drill.



I've whipped my wine for nearly an hour and half (6 battery pack changes of 15 minute work before recharging) over two days and had no residual CO2. I've done it for 20 - 45 minutes a couple of times and had CO2 remaining, unfortunately I don't have a good enough tongue to do the tongue fizz test or ears to differentiate the poofs in the poof test. I just know that when I pour wine out of a bottle months later, if it's not degassed there's a sharpness to it. If I whip it in the glass with a fork it smooths out very nicely. But for the life of me I can't figure out a good way to tell early in the process. That's why I spent the money on the AllinOne and rack a few times, use the headspace eliminator, and still slosh the wine around until the small bubbles stop and the large ones begin. I wish there were a better test to know when it's degassed enough.


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## sampvt (Feb 11, 2016)

Ive just spotted this and I think I will order it. It seems to be strong enough to fit my home made setup. The calcs put it at over 28inhg

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261876731575?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Any comments are welcome.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 11, 2016)

sampvt said:


> I needless to say I should never have trusted the manufacturers data, the dam thing only sucks at 11inhg, not 25 as they claimed.



Yes, I was surprised to see that spec. I am very well acquainted with vacuum equipment, and I found it very dubious that the foodsaver could pull that kind of vacuum. But, I was forced to believe their specification, too!



sampvt said:


> Ive just spotted this and I think I will order it. It seems to be strong enough to fit my home made setup. The calcs put it at over 28inhg
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261876731575?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> Any comments are welcome.



Do you have an air compressor with sufficient volume & pressure capacity to make the venturi pump work?


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## sampvt (Feb 11, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Yes, I was surprised to see that spec. I am very well acquainted with vacuum equipment, and I found it very dubious that the foodsaver could pull that kind of vacuum. But, I was forced to believe their specification, too!
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have an air compressor with sufficient volume & pressure capacity to make the venturi pump work?



I don't have a venture pump and whilst I was looking for one on ebay, this pump popped up. Its very cheap and delivers the right amount of vacuum pressure so I thought I might give it a go. Why the hell are the allinone pumps not available over here in the UK. The postage is very prohibitive for us and the waiting time for delivery is ages.


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## Johnd (Feb 11, 2016)

sampvt said:


> I don't have a venture pump and whilst I was looking for one on ebay, this pump popped up. Its very cheap and delivers the right amount of vacuum pressure so I thought I might give it a go. Why the hell are the allinone pumps not available over here in the UK. The postage is very prohibitive for us and the waiting time for delivery is ages.



What sour_grapes was asking is : "do you have an air compressor to make the Venturi vacuum work?" The product you're looking at requires a compressed air source to operate, one capable of delivering air at 4.2 CFM and 90 PSI. Without a compressed air source, this product will just sit on your table.


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## sampvt (Feb 11, 2016)

Johnd said:


> What sour_grapes was asking is : "do you have an air compressor to make the Venturi vacuum work?" The product you're looking at requires a compressed air source to operate, one capable of delivering air at 4.2 CFM and 90 PSI. Without a compressed air source, this product will just sit on your table.



WHAT ????  Omg I am gutted. I thought this was an electric pump that delivered suction at 28inhg. Ive read the post again and I cant see that its a regulator type of thing, I thought it was a motor. Ill write to them and ask what it really is. Thanks for the heads up


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## sour_grapes (Feb 11, 2016)

sampvt said:


> WHAT ????  Omg I am gutted. I thought this was an electric pump that delivered suction at 28inhg. Ive read the post again and I cant see that its a regulator type of thing, I thought it was a motor. Ill write to them and ask what it really is. Thanks for the heads up



It is a Venturi pump. It uses as source of compressed air to create (perhaps paradoxically) a good vacuum by exploiting the Bernoulli Principle. They work quite well, but, as Johnd points out, you need an air compressor.


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## sampvt (Feb 12, 2016)

There are times when we all feel humbled and to a degree deserve criticism, this is my time. Ive delved into this today and spoken to a vacuum pump expert. He also looked at it and came back with the following advice. The allinone pump operates on a simple vacuum premis like a fish tank or food sealer principle and draws around 22inhg of negative pressure. A refrigeration pump will draw nearer 28 to 28.5 which is getting near absolute max and he thought that at 29inhg a glass carboy would probably implode as 29 is greater than space itself.

Ive seen utube videos where a refrigeration pump is used and it drags the co2 out of carboys but god only knows how these people control the flow of pressure because refrigeration pumps are designed to achieve such a negative air suction value that it vapourises or eradicates liquids. 

Ive done some testing and a food processor will draw 10 to 14inches of mercury inhg and a hand pump goes further to 16inhg. The figures allinone claim are 22 to 24inhg and a refrigeration pump will pull up to 28.5. 

The bottom line is I cant make any sence of it all and im going back to my drill. All this techno data is giving me a headache and I am told the only real answer is a medical vacuum pump with controllable flow rates. I cant find one in my price range, so im giving up, thanks all.


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## AZMDTed (Feb 12, 2016)

I understand your frustration. In fairness to Steve and the AllinOne wine pump he describes it's degassing abilities in terms of degassing during racking, not pulling a steady vacuum. This is from his FAQ page:

"Can the unit be used for the removal of CO2?

Yes. Using the pump for racking from one carboy to another automatically removes the CO2. Splashing the wine in the carboy which is being filled can assist in removing the CO2.

NOTE – Using the vacuum pump to pull a steady vacuum directly from a carboy is an exceptionally inefficient method of removing CO2. This is not recommended as it unduly loads the vacuum pump reducing its life span." 

A lot of the folks on here talk about how well it degasses in terms of bulk aging and using it to rack during production and aging. Using the splash rack head that he has for it you're pulling out the gas as it's released during racking, and without exposing it to much oxygen. I've had success with the allinone and his headspace eliminator by pulling the vacuum and sloshing the wine around helping to release the gas and then the allinone pulls it out. It can also pull some of the gas out initially all by itself, but not all. I think it is still far far better than the wine whip and drill method I used before.

Winexpert instructions tell you to stir vigorously for four minutes to remove the gas. That's a joke and I don't understand why they persist in saying that. With a whip it takes probably an hour to get it all. I almost quit this hobby because of that, but I'm still in and enjoying it quite a bit more because of the AllinOne. It's not a miracle worker, but it's darn close.

Best of luck to you.


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## grapeman (Feb 12, 2016)

Are you certain you failed to degas the wine in the first place? You mention you killed the yeast and stabilized the wine. Did you sweeten the wine at all?
Let's be certain of the basics. What was the specific gravity of the wine when you "killed off" the yeast? How did you kill it off? What did you stabilize with? Did you sweeten it and if so what was the specific gravity then?
All the discussion of how to degas the wine is useless if the wine was not dry before degassing it. Once dry it needs to be sulfited to prevent spoilage later and then it should be stabilized with sorbate. You could possibly have a renewed fermentation going on in the bottle.


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## sampvt (Feb 12, 2016)

grapeman said:


> Are you certain you failed to degas the wine in the first place? You mention you killed the yeast and stabilized the wine. Did you sweeten the wine at all?
> Let's be certain of the basics. What was the specific gravity of the wine when you "killed off" the yeast? How did you kill it off? What did you stabilize with? Did you sweeten it and if so what was the specific gravity then?
> All the discussion of how to degas the wine is useless if the wine was not dry before degassing it. Once dry it needs to be sulfited to prevent spoilage later and then it should be stabilized with sorbate. You could possibly have a renewed fermentation going on in the bottle.



The OG was 1090 the finishing was 993 and it was drilled to death. It was stabalised, fined and filtered as per the kits instructions, bulk aged for 2 months in demijohns then bottled. 

In fact Ive just tipped the lot back into 2 big buckets and set the drill on it again. Ive got a crdle that suspende the drill above the bucket and on medium speed for 30 mins, the mix has produced a thick creamy 3/4 inch head that would rival guiness. I can write my name in it with my finger. Once this is all don't its getting 1 crushed and dissolved campden tab per gallon and its getting filtered through a medium pad and re bottled. Hopefully that will solve it. 

By the way, why are these bubbles so thick and creamy.


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## grapeman (Feb 12, 2016)

Unless you stir it for about 30 seconds, stop the drill and run in reverse for about 30 seconds and repeat the whole process you are just whipping the wine like a milkshake and it will make a frothy foam.
Hopefully you current plan of action will work out for you.

So I don't need to go searching around the forum to find what you made, what wine kit is this?


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## David219 (Feb 12, 2016)

Two other quick questions:
1. What temperature is the wine you are degassing?
2. Is there a reason that you do not wish to rack it into a topped up carboy and just let it sit for 4-6 months, then bottle?
Temperature and time are big factors in degassing.


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## sampvt (Feb 12, 2016)

grapeman said:


> Unless you stir it for about 30 seconds, stop the drill and run in reverse for about 30 seconds and repeat the whole process you are just whipping the wine like a milkshake and it will make a frothy foam.
> Hopefully you current plan of action will work out for you.
> 
> So I don't need to go searching around the forum to find what you made, what wine kit is this?



kenridge cab sav.


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## Johnd (Feb 12, 2016)

sampvt:

Just so you are crystal clear, I'll try to make sense of all of the techno data that makes no sense, this is real life and simple, all based on real life wine making experience. 

Time in a carboy will eventually remove all CO2, as long as you don't mind waiting. If you will bulk age 6 months plus, don't sweat CO2 removal, it will happen, (just like a carbonated soft drink left open and sitting out), and clearing will progress more slowly also as the CO2 comes out of solution. Very little oxygen exposure to your wine in this process.

If you want to remove it quicker, try the AIO, I don't use one, but EVERYONE who does attests that their wine is CO2 free after a few rackings, two of which you have to do anyway before you bottle, again takes time but less than the method above. Very little oxygen exposure to your wine in this process also.

If you just can't wait to degas and clear, there are numerous agitation methods to try, spoons, drill mounted devices, shaking the carboy, basically whipping the CO2 out of the wine. You will get a physical workout, it's not immediate, but persistence with this method if you choose it will result in victory. Oxygen exposure here is greater than the two above, so take care to minimize it.

You can combine agitation with a Vacuvin hand pump or hand operated brake bleeder, it WILL work, but again, takes persistence and physical effort. A hand operated brake bleeder will pull a vacuum of 30 inHg, if your hand power can keep up the pumping. Less head space makes it easier.

An electric (or compressed air driven, LOL) vacuum pump capable of 25inHg + vacuum also works. It's the fastest of all methods above, I've done them all. Wines are CO2 free in minutes. You CAN vacuum too long, so when you see big bubbles coming up that look like boiling wine, stop, it's that simple. I've never vaporized or eradicated a wine. I fitted my pump with a gage, so I know just what I'm pulling and for how long. Oxygen exposure with this method, like the top two, is minimal. 

Lastly, I've drawn a 29 inHg vacuum on a completely empty 23 l Italian glass carboy, it did not implode. I suppose a carboy with an internal flaw, or a crack or something could fail, mine did not, and I only did it once.


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## Rodnboro (Feb 13, 2016)

Being in the refrigeration/hvac field in the past, I have a vacuum pump and manifold gauge set. I rigged a setup with them and had to throttle air input via the manifold to limit the vacuum in/hg. It was time consuming and a bulky setup that wasn't worth the effort. Steve graciously donated an Allinone in a contest on here that I won. This is a great piece of equipment for amateur wine makers. If I'd have known the convenience of racking and bottling with it, it would have been the first thing I purchased. My wines have been degassed with just 2 or 3 rackings. I highly recommend the Allinone for your racking, bottling, and degassing needs.


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## sampvt (Feb 13, 2016)

Allinone pumps are probably very very good indeed, but over here in the UK they are not available and the postage is prohibitive. I could sell loads of them at the price quoted in the USA, but we cant get them here unless we take a mortgage out for the postage and import duties (if there are any)

This is a simple case of trying to copy one, not to compete with one, due to the simple fact that the UK hasn't got them YET. 

iM ALL EARS IF SOMEONE WANTS TO APPROACH ME WITH A FRANCHISE DEAL


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