# Potassium Bicarbonate/cold stabilization basic questions



## NorCal (Feb 3, 2019)

For the first time in my wine making career, I am dealing with a wine that is too tart to my liking. Normally I’m struggling with 4.0, flabby pH wines, but this year’s Viognier is tart to the taste. The flavor is good, but the finish leaves my tongue sweating like a faucet. Tastes like a light, fruity Chardonnay with a Sauvignon Blanc finish.

@4score and I crushed 1,000 pounds, initial brix were 23.7, pH 3.5, went through mlf. We did not measure TA, which is what I’m assuming what I’m trying to address now. The Potasium Bicarbonate was ordered at noon yesterday and is out for delivery now (on Sunday!). Amazon is pretty amazing.

I've tried a sample with backsweeten (.6 g/l), which is currently in the fridge to try later today and perhaps avoid this altogether. I’m a little concerned about in bottle refermentation if I went this route.

I will be adjusting solely to improve the flavor and really don’t care about the pH/TA numbers. I’ll be doing bench trials.

Questions
How many g/l should I adjust at a time, in order to have a noticeable impact?

Is the acid/base interaction immediate or does the wine need to be cold stabilized for the compound to fall out?

Once I find the minimum amount to add to my batch, how long and at what temperature is necessary to cold stabilize the wine?

Any other helpful hints?


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 3, 2019)

NorCal said:


> For the first time in my wine making career, I am dealing with a wine that is too tart to my liking. Normally I’m struggling with 4.0, flabby pH wines, but this year’s Viognier is tart to the taste. The flavor is good, but the finish leaves my tongue sweating like a faucet. Tastes like a light, fruity Chardonnay with a Sauvignon Blanc finish.
> 
> @4score and I crushed 1,000 pounds, initial brix were 23.7, pH 3.5, went through mlf. We did not measure TA, which is what I’m assuming what I’m trying to address now. The Potasium Bicarbonate was ordered at noon yesterday and is out for delivery now (on Sunday!). Amazon is pretty amazing.
> 
> ...



I can't help with the bicarbonite but in regard to cold stabilization aren't you hovering on the increased/decreased threshold for the acid adjustment being at 3.5 ph?


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

NorCal I’m am doing this exact thing right now! Also using potassium bicarbonate. And this will be my first time removing acid from wine using antacid chems. 
My current numbers are theoretically good so this one is also being done by taste. (I added tartaric from 3.9 to 3.6 last year but was too much)
I read both potassium carb and bicarbonate require cold stabilization. The carbonate has chemical components that can accept two protons H+ whereas bicarb already has one so can only accept one——- which means that carbonate is more reactant and thus more sensitive to jacking up the ph in the process. Which is why I decided on using bicarbonate. 
I copy and pasted this in my notes from an old WMT thread but I never saved the link

(This guide is also interchangeable with potassium bicarbonate it said)
“As with tartaric acid, for the purpose of testing for the proper additions of potassium carbonate, make a 5% solution. Put one litre of wine into a refrigerator and chill to about -3 or -4°C. Set up a few glasses with 100 ml of the chilled wine. Using one as a control, add 1, 2, 3, etc, mls. of the solution which will be the equivalent of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, etc, g/l. Refrigerate for two hours or so stirring regularly - 7 or 8 times. Let the samples warm up to cellar temperature and taste to determine the amount to add to the batch. It is necessary to taste the wine after the potassium carbonate has been added to the glasses in order to determine whether there is a resulting flabby taste. I have found that some wines, particularly aromatic wines lose their crispness when potassium carbonate is used even in very small amounts".

This is the bench trial test I am currently preparing for right now.


----------



## NorCal (Feb 3, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I can't help with the bicarbonite but in regard to cold stabilization aren't you hovering on the increased/decreased threshold for the acid adjustment being at 3.5 ph?



If the pH goes up and TA goes down and the taste improves, that works for me.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

FWIW I’m not making a 5% solution. I just calculated the additions in 1/2g/L increments based on 100mL samples. That comes out to be .033g of kbicarb. 
Also I should let it be known I have no idea what I’m doing. Totally wingin it here. And regurgitating info I found that I decided to use. I am suggesting nothing. And I’m open to any insight/advice/recommendations that anyone is willing to offer. *shoulda done bench trials the first time around. The wine is 20 gal of a super Tuscan blend from 2017 grapes. And sweetening is not an option. Already at 1.000sg


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I can't help with the bicarbonite but in regard to cold stabilization aren't you hovering on the increased/decreased threshold for the acid adjustment being at 3.5 ph?



I can’t speak for NorCal but my wines ph is 3.6. My meter reads one decimal point. So whichever direction it moves is up to the wine gods. (Gut tells me under 3.65 by watching how the meter dials in before stopping). My thought is that whichever way it moves will not be drastic enough to cause concern. 
As far as after trial, dosing and CS, I don’t have many options. Will transfer into carboys and place into milkcrates, wrapping something to insulate and sticking in the garage for I’m guessing at least a month(?) I hope to maintain <40° (Varying info online for this)
And I found that link I mentioned. https://www.winemakingtalk.com/thre...otassium-bicarbonate-post-fermentation.56253/


----------



## stickman (Feb 3, 2019)

@NorCal did you try chill proofing a sample of the wine as is? If not, it may be worth a try to see how it tastes. Try the freeze overnight - thaw - decant - procedure. If you do end up adding potassium bicarbonate, it would be best to get a sample and raise the pH to 3.6 and then do the freeze thaw overnight procedure and then taste. The reason for this is that the greatest acid precipitation will occur at 3.6 pH. 

The neutralization part of the reaction is fast, but the tartrate precipitation is slow. If you add potassium bicarbonate and taste during a bench trial, you'll only be tasting the drop in acidity due to the neutralization, but the potassium bitartrate that has not yet precipitated will still be contributing to the acid taste. 

After adding the potassium bicarbonate, the wine will be saturated with carbon dioxide, therefore degassing or sparging with nitrogen is recommended to strip the wine of the majority of the CO2, otherwise, there will a significant increase in perceived acidity due to the CO2. The saturation concentration of carbon dioxide at 50°F is about 2,000 mg/L, or the equivalent of 3.6 g/L T.A. as tartaric acid.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

That bench trial I reposted which says to chill the wine first, then make additions followed by 2 hours of chilling and stirring then allowing to warm up to cellar temps before tasting —- I’m assuming that is to mimic the CS to a degree. 
Does that sound plausible? If not, what is your opinion of how much more effect precipitation has on the taste after neutralization?
*sorry for the piggyback NorCal. I was about to start similar thread when I saw your post.


----------



## NorCal (Feb 3, 2019)

No worries, I welcome the collaboration.


----------



## stickman (Feb 3, 2019)

I think one way or another some attempt needs to be made to precipitate the tartrates before a final tasting, I can't speak for the other CS procedure, but the overnight freeze thaw is about as good as can be done without chilling for weeks etc. The cold stabilization accounts for about 25% to 50% of the calculated acid reduction*.*


----------



## sour_grapes (Feb 3, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I copy and pasted this in my notes from an old WMT thread but I never saved the link



Sounds like @salcoco to me!


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> Sounds like @salcoco to me!



I found it and posted the link a few posts back. Was from member @Tnuscan. And the bit about the H+ protons was paraphrased from @ibglowin lending to my kbicarb decision. 
I kinda took a little bit from everyone, using @NorCal’s thread and @Stickman’s deep freeze suggestion too. Group effort lol. Thanks to all for the help. 
I’ve got (x4) 100mL trial samples prepared and in the freezer now. 
1. Control
2. .5 g/L using .03g Kbicarb
3. 1 g/L using .06g Kbicarb
4. 1.5 g/L using .1g Kbicarb

I’ll bail out now NorCal. Threads all yours!


----------



## NorCal (Feb 3, 2019)

@Ajmassa5983, don’t you dare leave me now. I’m preparing my samples as we speak. However, the best I can do, due to business travels is prepare the samples tonight and put in the fridge for 24 hours. I’ll then do my tasting, knowing that even more acids could drop out with time.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

NorCal said:


> @Ajmassa5983, don’t you dare leave me now. I’m preparing my samples as we speak. However, the best I can do, due to business travels is prepare the samples tonight and put in the fridge for 24 hours. I’ll then do my tasting, knowing that even more acids could drop out with time.



Sounds good. Maybe my results will lend some more insight for you then since I’m freezing. 
For reference this was a 2017 Tuscan field blend that had a high ph. Adjusted with tartaric. Numbers good. Taste not so much. Been aging and procrastinating on this acid removal for a while now. 
Ph 3.6. Then read 3.5 after shaking the crap outta it. TA 6.6. 
Gonna thaw, check levels and taste either tomorrow or Tuesday.


----------



## NorCal (Feb 3, 2019)

200 ml samples are in the fridge.

I realized that our numbers mean different things. I used the amount of bicarbonate added vs. calculated g/l reduction in TA. 

I made a solution with .6 grams of bicarbonate for the samples as follows:
0 - 0 grams
0.5 - .1 gram
1.0 - .2 grams
1.5 - .3 grams

Not sure why I was expecting more of a CO2 reaction.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 4, 2019)

Took a min to figure this one. I used fermcalc for the rate .66 g/L addition to remove 1g/L of acid while you used .1g/L rate. I moved in .33g increments compared to your .5g increments. 
Kinda confusing with different sample size and rates but still same basically. Biggest difference is our 1.5g/L removal sample—yours with .15g/L to my .10g/L. Just more data for us. A wide range and a narrow range. 
Plus I’m throwing projections out the window anyway. This ones all about taste


----------



## montanarick (Feb 4, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I can't help with the bicarbonite but in regard to cold stabilization aren't you hovering on the increased/decreased threshold for the acid adjustment being at 3.5 ph?


potassium bicarbonate will increase Ph. Since it's already at 3.5 not sure why you'd want to do that?


----------



## NorCal (Feb 4, 2019)

montanarick said:


> potassium bicarbonate will increase Ph. Since it's already at 3.5 not sure why you'd want to do that?



If it is a choice between a wine with good numbers but doesn't taste good or a wine that tastes good with numbers that aren't as good, I'll pick the latter.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 4, 2019)

montanarick said:


> potassium bicarbonate will increase Ph. Since it's already at 3.5 not sure why you'd want to do that?



There’s a weird chemical anomaly when using potassium bi/carbonate combined with cold stabilizing. Regardless of lowering TA the ph will move down if under 3.65 and up if above. 
But for me- acid was added to ideal numbers. But was too much for the taste. So as long as numbers stay in relatively safe ranges after removal the most important thing is to dial in the taste


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 4, 2019)

Right now I’m thawing samples and will freeze again in the morning and remove in the afternoon. 
I assume length of freeze time makes no difference but not sure. Is there any acid activity happening while the wine is frozen or is it simply the ‘freezing/thawing’ process that mimics CS?


----------



## stickman (Feb 4, 2019)

Freezing is just a quick attempt at getting as much precipitation as possible.

"As ice formation increases, there is an increase in the relative concentration of all species in the sample, including alcohol, thus enhancing nucleation and crystallization." 
1988 Bruce Zoecklein, Extension Enologist, Virginia Polytechnic Institute


----------



## NorCal (Feb 5, 2019)

Tasted my samples. I went from the tasting the 0 to the 1.5 g/l addition and noticed the difference right away. I liked the 1.5 the best. Same with the Mrs. Did it blind, same results. I’m really happy that this has changed a wine that I think is not appealing to something I’d be proud to share/enter in a competition.

Time is on my side and I have around 25 gallons of this wine. I think I’ll repeat the experiment, make a half case, share some, leave some in the fridge for a while and make sure it is stable and the taste profile doesn’t change, before bottling the balance.


----------



## Johnd (Feb 5, 2019)

NorCal said:


> Tasted my samples. I went from the tasting the 0 to the 1.5 g/l addition and noticed the difference right away. I liked the 1.5 the best. Same with the Mrs. Did it blind, same results. I’m really happy that this has changed a wine that I think is not appealing to something I’d be proud to share/enter in a competition.
> 
> Time is on my side and I have around 25 gallons of this wine. I think I’ll repeat the experiment, make a half case, share some, leave some in the fridge for a while and make sure it is stable and the taste profile doesn’t change, before bottling the balance.
> View attachment 53194



Gotta love a successful bench trial!!


----------



## ibglowin (Feb 5, 2019)

So what is he pH now of the 1.5g/l addition sample?

This is pretty weird that you prefer the sample with more than likely the highest pH and more than likely a pH closer to its initial starting point of 4.0

White wines usually are better with lower pH's down in the 3.1-3.4 range so perhaps this is just your palette or a Viognier thing?

All I can say is very interesting results!




NorCal said:


> Tasted my samples. I went from the tasting the 0 to the 1.5 g/l addition and noticed the difference right away. I liked the 1.5 the best. Same with the Mrs. Did it blind, same results. I’m really happy that this has changed a wine that I think is not appealing to something I’d be proud to share/enter in a competition.
> 
> Time is on my side and I have around 25 gallons of this wine. I think I’ll repeat the experiment, make a half case, share some, leave some in the fridge for a while and make sure it is stable and the taste profile doesn’t change, before bottling the balance.
> View attachment 53194


----------



## NorCal (Feb 5, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> So what is he pH now of the 1.5g/l addition sample?
> 
> This is pretty weird that you prefer the sample with more than likely the highest pH and more than likely a pH closer to its initial starting point of 4.0
> 
> ...



Starting pH was 3.5 on the Viognier (I referenced 4.0 wines as something I’m usually dealing with and it is with my 26 brix reds) It still has some acidity. I need to replace the batteries on my meter when I get back into town. I’m comfortable with a higher pH, if it results in a lower TA and less acidic taste on the backend.


----------



## GreginND (Feb 5, 2019)

Generally I prefer to do acid adjustments pre-ferment if possible. But if you must. FYI - I would kill to get my pH as high as yours with our cold climate grapes! 

Anyway, deacidificaiton can lead to chalky flavors, so be a little careful. Generally not recommended to adjust the TA more than 1 g/L. The chemical reaction will occur immediately. But keep in mind you are adding some potassium ions along with the bicarb. Thus, your potassium balance will be changed and it is usually recommend that one cold stabilize after adding potassium salts if you are concerned about more tartrates forming in the bottle later. You can chill a sample to see if it is cold stable or not.

As always, go by TASTE not numbers.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 5, 2019)

Holy crap, I think I just fixed my wine!

Between .6g/L and 1g/L addition it’s looking like after trials. Both a world of difference. Completely brought it back, rounding the whole thing out. Samples were frozen/thawed twice. 
Control was 3.5ph .6g/L was 3.6ph. And the 1g/L was 3.8ph. 
Not sure how to account for how CS precipitate will additionally affect it tho. Leaning towards .6 and hoping CS carries it across the finish line. Too much it seems would take “the umph” away- the wine’s “pizazz”. 1g/L was more flat, or boring. (Made an additional 1.5g/L sample to confirm) I don’t know how to describe it. I do know I’m very happy with the results.


----------



## stickman (Feb 6, 2019)

@Ajmassa5983 Looks like you got some good precipitation there!


----------



## ibglowin (Feb 6, 2019)




----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 6, 2019)

ibglowin said:


>



What’s your opinion of the ph movement after the CS and the 3.65 threshold? 
Like, is that a hardfast rule or just a possibility that can change from different variables?
And also, I realize each wine is unique, but on average how drastic does the additional tartrate precipitating further alter the taste ? 
Thinking I’ll also steal @Norcal’s plan to first do a case to confirm before dosing and CS entire batch.


----------



## ibglowin (Feb 6, 2019)

I think there are so many variables that its just place holder most of the time. I would not be in any hurry to bottle. Let it CS in a cold basement, outside or a fridge for at least a month. One of the worst wines I ever tasted was a commercial Cab Sauv from a local NM winery that I bought and took down to some friends for a special occasion. I paid like $23 for that bottle and upon opening and tasting it the overwhelming thing you tasted was salt. It was pretty obvious that they had perhaps added too much acid and then tried to fix it and did not allow it to stabilize and fall out of solution. It was chalky salted mess. Just horrible and we had to pour it out.

Like most everything in winemaking patience is a virtue.



Ajmassa5983 said:


> What’s your opinion of the ph movement after the CS and the 3.65 threshold?
> Like, is that a hardfast rule or just a possibility that can change from different variables?
> And also, I realize each wine is unique, but on average how drastic does the additional tartrate precipitating further alter the taste ?
> Thinking I’ll also steal @Norcal’s plan to first do a case to confirm before dosing and CS entire batch.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 6, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> I think there are so many variables that its just place holder most of the time. I would not be in any hurry to bottle. Let it CS in a cold basement, outside or a fridge for at least a month. One of the worst wines I ever tasted was a commercial Cab Sauv from a local NM winery that I bought and took down to some friends for a special occasion. I paid like $23 for that bottle and upon opening and tasting it the overwhelming thing you tasted was salt. It was pretty obvious that they had perhaps added too much acid and then tried to fix it and did not allow it to stabilize and fall out of solution. It was chalky salted mess. Just horrible and we had to pour it out.
> 
> Like most everything in winemaking patience is a virtue.



Thanks for the insight. When I added 1.5g/L and 2g/L samples just to have a better sense of how the taste is effected by acid removal I definitely noted the chalkiness you mention. 
It helped in knowing what to be aware of coming through when dialing in the preferred dose. 
It’s one thing to read about acid removal (there’s no shortage of literature out there), and a whole other thing to actual do it. I really did not understand the full scope of what the acid does for the wine until now


----------



## NorCal (Feb 6, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> Let it CS in a cold basement, outside or a fridge for at least a month.



Excellent advice, thanks, I will do that.


----------



## NorCal (Feb 7, 2019)

Made full containers (27 gallons) and bottled 4 bottles for the fridge with 1.5 g/l bicarbonate. I’ll see if I have the patience to wait a month. I did try the remaining sample (3 days in fridge) and it was spot on. I tasted the non treated and it is such a different wine with the acid reduction.


----------



## NorCal (Feb 10, 2019)

Not to leave good enough alone, I opened up one of the bottles. Yes, it’s only been a day, 29 days short of the month. However, I saw crystals at the bottom of the bottle and I knew something was happening. I am totally satisfied with the resulting taste of the wine. The flavor profile is of fine pear juice, which I think is the essence of Viognier. I added 1.5 g/l bicarbonate (corrected) to 11.5 of my 27 gallons. Feeling confident I’m on the right path.


----------



## GreginND (Feb 11, 2019)

I hope you meant bicarbonate. I don't think I'd want to drink the biphosphate given its affects on the digestive track.


----------



## NorCal (Feb 20, 2019)

Good news. The bottles in the fridge look stable. I measured pH between 3.6 and 3.7, which is high for a white, but the Viognier’s that I’ve had aren’t particularly tart.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 24, 2019)

Having some trouble getting these carboys cold enough for CS. The daily temp swings are keeping them high 40°’s - 50°.
I have em insulated 
in a 40° garage right by the door too. The next week or so it’s supposed to have lows in the 20°s. Removed the gas cans from the shed and airing it out gonna move em there hoping to get em <40°.
Otherwise I can freeze em one at a time. It’s 4 carboys total. Thoughts/suggestions?


----------



## Boatboy24 (Feb 24, 2019)

Leave 'em exposed at night, then cover them in the morning.


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 25, 2019)

Seems about all you can do except for the one at a time option.


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 25, 2019)

Feeling pretty stupid and embarrassed for not thinking to remove the insulation I gotta admit. 

To deflect- how u guys feeling about Bryce Harper leaving and potentially becoming a Phillie? Lol


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 25, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Feeling pretty stupid and embarrassed for not thinking to remove the insulation I gotta admit.
> 
> To deflect- how u guys feeling about Bryce Harper leaving and potentially becoming a Phillie? Lol



You can have him for the 80 games a year he plays


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 25, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> You can have him for the 80 games a year he plays



Ugh. And they’re gonna have to overpay for him too. 

Tbh I liked it better when we viewed him as a petulant sh*thead. The days when Cole Hamels gave him some ‘welcome to the majors’ chin music.


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 25, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ugh. And they’re gonna have to overpay for him too.
> 
> Tbh I liked it better when we viewed him as a petulant sh*thead. The days when Cole Hamels gave him some ‘welcome to the majors’ chin music.



Nats and Caps fans are always very welcoming when former players come home to play. I'm not sure Harper will get the same welcome.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Feb 25, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Nats and Caps fans are always very welcoming when former players come home to play. I'm not sure Harper will get the same welcome.



Agree.

I'll admit, I'm a Harper fan. But nobody is worth that kind of money - certainly not him. The Nats are better off without him. I think they did the right thing spending money elsewhere this offseason. 

And don't get too confident there, @Ajmassa5983 . Looks like LA might be making a run at him.


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 25, 2019)

I heard an interview when he first became a free agent. When asked how he felt about his upcoming 400M contract. His response was "don't cut me short".


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 25, 2019)

Temp is dropping to low 20°’s tomorrow. And We’re getting a little arctic blast next week too. It seems the wine gods cut me a break for once. If I can maintain <40° for a couple more weeks I’ll be thrilled. 
This wine is actually my 1st bigger batch from grapes I made as the shotcaller. It’s already 1.5yrs old and I’m really lookin forward to getting it bottled finally. Hopefully this acid removal lands on target. I learned so much making this wine I could write a damn book from all the notes. Looking forward to having more than a 30 bottle batch to drink and give away finally too


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 25, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Agree.
> 
> I'll admit, I'm a Harper fan. But nobody is worth that kind of money - certainly not him. The Nats are better off without him. I think they did the right thing spending money elsewhere this offseason.
> 
> And don't get too confident there, @Ajmassa5983 . Looks like LA might be making a run at him.



Certainly seems that way. I’d have to agree that philly would also be better off without him. Now Mike Trout on the other hand.....



mainshipfred said:


> I heard an interview when he first became a free agent. When asked how he felt about his upcoming 400M contract. His response was "don't cut me short".



Wow. Sounds like a wonderful locker room guy— can’t wait to boo him, it’s what we do best! If he happens to be in a Phillies uniform? We boo even louder!


----------

