# Where can I get vines in Ontario?



## willjayc

I am planning on starting a small vineyard with about 40-50 vines in South/Central Ontario. I am having difficulty deciding on which varieties to plant and where to get them. 

We are located at the edge of zone 4b/5a. Between Barrie and Orillia in Ontario. Not typical grape growing area but I have wanted to try my hand at this for a while now. Our site is a SSE gently sloping hillside that has decent drainage but may be slightly less than ideal towards the bottom of the slope. It is decent soil with a bit of stone and a slightly heavy soil texture as you get through the old plow layer . We are primarily looking at table grapes with maybe 25% in wine grapes and 25% in juice grapes. Maybe a total of 4 varieties. Seedless table varieties are preferred.

Ease of care and disease resistance would be important. I had 4 grape vines for the last 3 years at our old house and have a bit of experience but have since moved to a place with 23 acres. 

Any links or advice is greatly appreciated.


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## grapeman

Check with any vineyards in the area for sources of vines and what will grow or is allowed to grow there. Some areas restrict which varieties of grapes may be grown- at least commercially. The vineyards should have some answers for you. I know there are a couple places sell vines north of me in Quebec.


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## dan69man

Mori Vines Inc. is located in Niagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada. For over 50 years Mori&rsquo;s has supplied quality grown grapevines &ndash; grafting premium vinifera and French hybrid vines for the grape and wine industry in North America.


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## willjayc

Thanks for the replies.

I have found Mori Vines but they only sell a minimum of 25 vines per species and I am looking at 10 vines each and 4 or 5 species so I won't meet their minimum order requirements.

I also just stumbled across Voloaca Nurseries and they seem like they may work for me.

Double A has tons of variety but I don't think they ship to Canada. 

Also, hardyfruittrees.ca sells a seedless table grape that I think I may go with as well.
Does anyone know of any other seedless varieties?

The vines that interest me are:
1. Somerset
2. Marquette
3. St Pepin
4. St Croix
5. Frontenac Grais
6. Kay Gray
7. Louise Svenson
8. Concord

I think I have narrowed it down to the first 5. Any suggestions on variety? As I said, I am most interested in grapes for fresh eating then processing and juice and possibly try making a somewhat sweet wine if I have the time, crop and knowledge. Disease resistance and ease to grow is also important.

Grapeman - I really enjoyed your post on the cuttings you were growing and new vineyard you were setting up. I read all 15 pages twice! It has answered some of the many questions I have and made me feel just a little bit more knowledgeable about the vines I am trying to start up! Just wanted to say thanks but I didn't want to put it on that post and make it 16 pages so hopefully you find it here.


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## grapeman

Strictly for eating and juice you might want to swap Kay Gray or Loiuse Swenswon for the Frontenac Gris. The Gris are very small and sour grapes. Marquette would make pretty good juice and great wine, but not so much for eating. St Pepin and St Croix are both excellent for eating, juice and wine. Just remember these are all seeded types. 

I'm glad you have enjoyed the Vineyard From the Beginning Thread. That was just the first year of it. Coming up in a few months is Trellis installation and training to the wires. I will also establish a permanent cover crop between rows.

As a side note, in the same section on Vineyards check out Grape Growing and Vineyard Forum - The thread on Champlain Valley-my Vineyard. In that thread I document the vineyard from the beginning through about year six or seven and a winery establishment. That one is 210 pages long.


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## offdagrid

why not try one of these plases, the both sell grapes for our canadian climate
http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/store/fruitsberries?veseys=d2284c01d646fb7542576e8326f4a809

http://www.ttseeds.com/PHP/home.php


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## willjayc

offdagrid - thanks....I've checked Veseys and TT Seeds already......just not a great selection and their prices are a bit much if buying 40 vines. I however did have 4 vines that I bought from Veseys at our old house and they were good quality but we moved in their 3rd year. I am sure the new owner is not doing much with them and I should sneak over there and take some cuttings

Grapeman - I've started reading Champlain Valley as well but at 210 pages it is a bit of a task. Thanks for the advice on the Frontnac Gris. Maybe I will consider a swap. I am in the midst of planning my trellis system right now and look forward to hearing how you construct yours. As I will only have a small number of vines to plant I might put my trellis up before I plant if I have time before my vines arrive. 

So far this is what I have come up with for my trellis:
Cedar posts (I have a cedar bush and work as a forestry tech so it just makes sense)
6" diameter end posts 4 foot in the ground possibly with cement, I want to avoid guywires but may diagonal brace the inside.
4" diameter line posts 3' in the ground
8' vine spacing, 24' post spacing and 10' row spacing

I plan on making the trellis 6' high but have not decided what is the best training system and don't know at which heights I will put wire. I plan on using wire vices and 12.5 ga wire.

Any suggestions?


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## grapeman

It sounds like you are going in the right direction with the trellis posts. For flexibility in the system you can begin with a three wire trellis setting them at 2,4,6 feet. If you use fencing staples (1 3/4" long or more) you can move them if need be in the future. In the north, TWC or Top Wire Cordon works well for general purpose and should be fine for those varieties. It is simple to establish and maintain.


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## GreginND

willjayc said:


> I've started reading Champlain Valley as well but at 210 pages it is a bit of a task.



But well worth the time! It is invaluable.


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## willjayc

GreginND said:


> But well worth the time! It is invaluable.



I'm on page 60! Yes it is great. I think I've learned more about growing grapes from this forum in the last week than from all the fruit growing books I own.

Grapeman - what zone are you in?

I've ordered all my vines:
St Pepin
St Croix
Kay Grey
Marquette
Somerset

Got them from Volcala Nurseries and Hardyfruittrees.ca both out of Quebec.

I think I will train my vines for TWC but am thinking about VSP for the Marquette due to their semi upright characteristic. Any thoughts?

Also I am trying to decide if I should design my trellis so I can lay these vines down in the winter. I think I will be ok for Hardiness. I am technically in Zone 5a but I think we are in a slightly cooler micro climate here but haven't been living here long so can't say for sure. I work as a forest tech for the county so I travel all over the area and we have cooler morning temps and frost before other nearby areas closer to the lake. It's funny cause where we moved from was less than 300' from something called "the narrows" which is an area between lakes Couchiching and Simcoe. The lake doesn't freeze over in the winter because of the current and we had the opposite microclimate there! It was often quite a bit warmer there and I bet you could get away with zone 6 plants with a little TLC! I wish I could have this acreage in that location!


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## grapeman

I am in between zone 4b and 5a. It is hard to tell exactly where I am.
In my experience the Marquette does A LOT better with TWC than it does VSP. You really have to thin the heck out of the vines and prune almost constantly to keep them on VSP. In my training system trial, Marquette did the worst on VSP out of four systems.

Laying them down would be a lot of work and not be of much advantage since you are growing hardy varieties.


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## willjayc

That's great news! Less work for me all the way around. Thanks.


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## andybuzlu

There is Vinetech in Niagara-on-the-Lake


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## willjayc

Just came across Green Barn Nurseries out of Quebec that have a great selection of hardy seedless grapes and also have some seeded varieties as well. You can find them at greenbarnnursery.ca. Wish I had have found them earlier as now I have ordered too many vines!


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## willjayc

Vineyard Update after 7 growing seasons:

But first, funny thing this internet, here I am researching some cold hardy vines to add/replace in my vineyard and what do I find but my own post from 6 years ago about the same thing! I first started reading thinking, geez, someone else close to me is growing grapes too....

I think I owe this forum an update on that.

As posted above, in spring 2013 I planted 3 vines of each of the following just outside of Orillia, Ontario, Canada:

Somerset (from hardyfriuttrees.ca)
Marquette (from Volcala)
St. Pipin (from Volcala)
St. Croix (from Volcala)
Kay Grey (from Volcala)
Valiant (from previous house but originally from Veseys)
Earliblue (from Green Barn Nurseries)
Magenta (from Green Barn Nurseries)
Pink Pearl (from Green Barn Nurseries)
Polar Green (from Green Barn Nurseries)
Reliance (from Green Barn Nurseries)

Here's a summary of how they have preformed and my very amateur thoughts on them, keep in mind, they are only 7 year old vines and have been producing for 3-4 years (at best):

Somerset 


Somewhat finicky producer, usually get something from these but they aren't great yields and somewhat sporadic. Fairly low vigor and some frost/cold issues. They always come back but sometimes from a new shoot. My kid loves them, they are partially seedless and do taste great. Small fruits.

Marquette
Reliable producer but moderate yields of small to medium fruits. They have been the second most prone to any insects or disease thus far but haven't had too many issues. Moderate vigor and yield. Taste is ok but I have mainly been eating them fresh. If I juice, they get mixed due to limited quantities. Cold hardiness and frost has not been an issue.

St. Pipin


Reliable producer, high vigor, good yields of medium fruit. Very minor cold issues once on one vine, otherwise have been very good with no other disease or insect issues. Taste - good but wasn't my favourite but they have really grown on me this year and they are in the top two for fresh eating flavour.

St. Croix


My favourite from the beginning, great fresh eating taste. Not everyone here agrees but they are my favourite. Reliable producer, high vigour, good yields of medium + fruit. No cold, insect or disease issues thus far.

Kay Grey


Reliable producer, high vigour, good yields of medium + fruit. No cold, insect or disease issues thus far. My wife's favourite for fresh eating. In the top 3 or 4 for me.

Valiant
Medium vigour, good yields of small to medium fruit. Often insect damage in most years when other varieties are fine. Lose leaves very early in the fall when everything else still has foliage. Ok taste but I intend to replace them with something else.

Earli Blue


Medium vigour, medium yield but somewhat variable. Has had some winter die back but mostly cold hardy. Taste is good, similar to the valiant but better taste.

Magenta, Pink Pearl, Polar Green, Reliance
All a bust. In fact ordering from Greenbarn Nurseries was a horrible ordeal. Also bought numerous other fruit trees from them. Stock was very poor, some wasn't sent and never got a refund on many missing items. Despite all of that, I was able to get the vines growing. 80% of vines die back to roots annually. I've tried for 7 years and still have a few hanging on but at best, I've seen a few bunches of the polar green this year. Rest have never produced and they are being replaced very soon. Hence my new grape vine research!

2019:

I harvested about 180lbs of grapes total this year off of 3 vines of each (21 total vines) of the following: Somerset, *Marquette*, *Valiant, St. Pipin,* *St. Croix, Kay Grey, Earli-Blue*. *Bolded* were medium producers, *underlined* were heaviest producers.


160 lbs of grapes (20 lbs Valiant were harvested later)

Moving forward, I am considering adding Vidal, Riesling, Geisenheim and maybe a few others (looking into hardiness of Gewertz) as a trial. Not sure if I'm pushing the limits with some of these. If so, I'll be infilling with St. Pipin and St. Croix in the future. I'll attempt to update again in a few years...


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## Nickm

Wilkayc,
im also in the Orillia area looking for grapes. I was trying to find the volcala nursery you were referring to and I can’t find it anywhere! Could you help me out?


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