# Wood Aging: alternative species to oak?



## Ty520 (Apr 27, 2021)

While visiting a local winery recently, i noticed that they were using hybrid barrels comprised of oak staves and acacia heads.

It made me wonder what other species can/are used in aging.

But i can't seem to find anything that provides a comprehensive description of other species that could be used, and the characteristics they impart?

has anyone else come across such info?


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## tjgaul (Apr 27, 2021)

I know the scotch makers sometimes use alternative wood and/or alternative pre-use applications (sherry/port barrels), but I don't know about wine makers. I personally have a couple mesh bags of wood splits that have been hanging outdoors for 2 years now. The plan is to cut/split them into carboy friendly size pieces, toast them and use them in my home winemaking. One is red oak (not preferred) and the other is cherry wood. The main complaint with the red oak is the excessive resin. Aging outdoors for 2 years ought to take care of that. 

I'm kind of excited to see what flavors and other attributes the cherry imparts to the wine. 

Sorry . . . not much of an answer to your question.


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## Ty520 (Apr 27, 2021)

so after some rudimentary research...

I found a few scientific papers that had info on cherry, chestnut, and various species of oak, but most of the compounds mentioned I wasn't familiar with and didn't know what it meant in layman's terms and how it translated to aroma and flavor.

One report indicated that spanish oak had higher vanillins than others including American, which was surprising.

It also showed that chestnut was very very similar to oak, but had amplified coffee and cinnamon notes, and glycerol which would increase mouth feel and body. Could be promising for a mead.

As for Cherry, it says it amplifies cherry qualities of a wine - both in aroma and taste, but has higher rates of oxidation and a wide ranging effect on color - so could be good for a younger wine meant to be consumed relatively young.

a couple surprising analyses were that Apricot and Locust had high levels of resvretol and catechin, and taste testers found that they both drastically improved reds like syrah and cab sauv - especially apricot


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## winemaker81 (Apr 28, 2021)

tjgaul said:


> The main complaint with the red oak is the excessive resin


I've read in a few places that red oak produces flavors similar to cat urine. I don't know if that is related to the resin or not.

Although I have never tasted cat urine, I know what it smells like and have no interest in tasting anything that smells that bad.  

There is a recent thread regarding an experiment using toasted wood splinters in bottles to test the wood. You might want to try that with the red oak, as you risk only a bottle.


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## cenk57 (Apr 28, 2021)

How about some of the BBQ smoking woods? Hickory, apple, mesquite ext.... Has anyone ever tested? That would be interesting.


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## tjgaul (Apr 28, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I've read in a few places that red oak produces flavors similar to cat urine. I don't know if that is related to the resin or not.
> 
> Although I have never tasted cat urine, I know what it smells like and have no interest in tasting anything that smells that bad.  *I've never sipped cat urine and I don't intend to!*
> 
> There is a recent thread regarding an experiment using toasted wood splinters in bottles to test the wood. You might want to try that with the red oak, as you risk only a bottle. * Thanks! Excellent idea. I wasn't too worried about the cherry, but definitely had reservations on the red oak . . . you just made me even more cautious.*


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## Ty520 (Apr 28, 2021)

cenk57 said:


> How about some of the BBQ smoking woods? Hickory, apple, mesquite ext.... Has anyone ever tested? That would be interesting.



I've never used them as many people have said that chips can be overly aggressive, but it may be the best and only option. I'm also going to try contacting a local woodworking store to see if they have any square dowels as well and cut down my own cubes


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## winemaker81 (Apr 28, 2021)

cenk57 said:


> How about some of the BBQ smoking woods? Hickory, apple, mesquite ext.... Has anyone ever tested? That would be interesting.


The wood used for winemaking is aged, typically 2+ years, before use. You have no idea what conditions the BBQ chips have been in, and since it's designed to be burned, the vendors are not going to be concerned with sterility.

OTOH, toasting in your oven will probably kill critters, but other things in the wood might not be good.


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## cenk57 (Apr 28, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> The wood used for winemaking is aged, typically 2+ years, before use. You have no idea what conditions the BBQ chips have been in, and since it's designed to be burned, the vendors are not going to be concerned with sterility.
> 
> OTOH, toasting in your oven will probably kill critters, but other things in the wood might not be good.



I probably was not clear in my comment, lol. I would never suggest using wood chips that are manufactured for the purpose of smoking/bbq. You are correct, they are not sterile as they are meant to be burned. I was just suggesting using the known types of wood that are used to impart preferable flavor into food.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 28, 2021)

@cenk57, gotcha. There have been other recent threads about using alternate woods. Look back at recent pages of this (Barrels & Oaking) sub-forum. I recall links to articles regarding use of non-oak woods. You might try WineMakerMag and MoreWine, they may have articles.

From what I've read, laying hands on appropriate wood is the hard part. The aging of the wood apparently plays a key role -- I know wine barrels are made from aged oak.


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## Ty520 (Apr 28, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @cenk57, gotcha. There have been other recent threads about using alternate woods. Look back at recent pages of this (Barrels & Oaking) sub-forum. I recall links to articles regarding use of non-oak woods. You might try WineMakerMag and MoreWine, they may have articles.
> 
> From what I've read, laying hands on appropriate wood is the hard part. The aging of the wood apparently plays a key role -- I know wine barrels are made from aged oak.



regarding smoking chips, they are most definitely sterilized as required by the FDA because they are to be used in conjunction with food. they are probably MORE sterile than what you'd find for use in brewing and fermentation

also, Hard Woods for burning are always seasoned at least 1 year on average - less if kiln dried, more if air dried

What i would question is the cleanliness of any of the used barrels and staves that are sold for re use to people like us. I've seen the condition these barrels are kept in prior to being resold or broken down and they are hardly sanitary - i visited one "reputable" place in Kentucky that resold their barrels that just sat outside for days, weeks and even months


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## JTS84 (Apr 28, 2021)

I don't know if this might save you some work, but take a look. 









flavor


Unique Flavors and Finishes, Alternative to standard or Traditional oak barrels. A range of Flavors are available, accelerated aging




blackswanbarrels.com


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## Ty520 (Apr 28, 2021)

JTS84 said:


> I don't know if this might save you some work, but take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a very promising source! much appreciation


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## MiBor (Apr 28, 2021)

> I have been entertaining a theory that one of the primary reasons why they make barrels out of white oak instead of other hardwoods is not because white oak imparts liquors and wines with more magical flavors/colors than other hardwoods. It is actually because white oak imparts liquor and wine with _less_ flavor or color _over time_ than many other hardwoods.
> 
> Let's say that a distillery makes a liquor with an overabundance of undesirable head esters that need years to break down into something more palatable.
> 
> ...



This is someone's opinion on HD forums. I though it was an interesting theory worth posting here.


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## Ty520 (Apr 28, 2021)

MiBor said:


> This is someone's opinion on HD forums. I though it was an interesting theory worth posting here.



I buy that, but I think there is also a trade off - some species also increase some desirable flavonoids and polyphenols. apricot reportedly being one of them

Last night, I read another interesting study that found that some species may drastically increase certain flavonoids and polyphenols over a certain time period, but then start to leach them back out, and sometimes to a point where you end up with less than you started. in fact, one of their tests was with red oak: the initial samples were high in resin, and taste testers found it unpleasant, but then they found that the resinous qualities practically disappeared if they left it long enough and the profile became almost indistinguishable from French oak.

I also noticed that the reported effects weren't always equal, as well - a species of wood had very different effects on different varieties of grape.

so it looks like the variables are highly complex: wood species, grape variety and time all have to be accounted for, and completely change if only 1 variable is different.

That being said, I do think that oak does a good job at balancing things, whereas other species might be too heavily weighted toward a single polyphenol or flavonoid - another analysis i read showed that given enough time, oak will break apart flavonoid and polyphenol chains fairly uniformly, then rejoin the pieces of the polyphenol and flavonoid chains to one another fairly equally.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 28, 2021)

I got this from Winefrog.com:

Oak, compared to other alternatives, is much easier to shape into a barrel. It is also one of the most abundant woods available and one of the fastest growing. Oak is also coveted for its ability to retain liquids inside due to its tight grain, yet it possesses the ability to allow contents to breathe. The oak barrel can remain water-tight, however, its pores allow for a controlled and necessary evaporation to take place. 

In addition to flavoring, the relative ease for of manufacturing barrels makes sense, as do the evaporation and O2 ingress qualities. It's entirely possible that that preference for oak flavoring was originally driven by the use of oak for storage -- it became the norm so now it's engrained as the desired flavoring.


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## Kitchen (Apr 28, 2021)

I picked up five 10 gallon barrels from a local cooperage this past Monday, two Romanian Oak (M & M+ with LT heads), on American Oak (M+ with LT heads), one Acacia (LT) and one Frankenstein with Acacia (LT) shell and oak (LT) heads. 

Both types of oak are seasoned 3+ years and the acacia 2+ years. Although the two Romanian barrels had similar aromas, the rest were vastly different in smell. The Acacia barrel was very unique, a light floral aroma with a creamy feel to it but with no vanilla or spices; hard to describe. I think the Frankenstein barrel had the best aroma; best of both worlds and the light toast of the heads seem to compliment the acaci. I am going to using them for a few different Mead recipes and ideas I have. 

They are right now in my garage filled with acidified water and sulfites, hoping to leech some the stronger flavors out of them first so as to better simulate 60 gallon and 132 gallon barrels.


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## MiBor (Apr 28, 2021)

Has anyone found a source of apricot wood for flavoring wine? The closest thing to a supplier I found on the web is this:

Apricot Wood for Smoking - Fruita Wood & BBQ Supply

They are selling 12" splits that can be further cut to size and toasted for using as wine flavoring chips. I don't know if the wood is seasoned/weathered at all. Since they sell it for smoking meats, it is probably just kiln dried.

I also emailed blackswanbarrels.com asking about apricot, but they have not responded yet.


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## Kitchen (Apr 28, 2021)

Just to add to this, I have read that wood for wine barrels needs to be at a higher level of quality then for whiskey barrels for a couple of reasons. 

First, the char of a whisky barrel acts as an activated filter helping to filter out not so pleasant chemicals in the wood. These means that staves for whiskey barrels are not seasoned as long. Due to the lack of charring in wine barrels, all of those chemicals need to be leeched out through seasoning of at least 2 years before they can be used. 

Second, since wine has no sugar in it, the staves need to be free of imperfections otherwise the barrel will leak. Whiskey has a decent amount of sugar in it, so staves can have small knots or fishers, which the sugar will clog up and prevent leakage. 

Both points make sense, and I would not want to test it out. I also would not order a barrel from a cooper who does not have experience with wine barrels specifically and/or does not list the number of years the staves have been seasoned.


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## Ty520 (Apr 28, 2021)

Kitchen said:


> Just to add to this, I have read that wood for wine barrels needs to be at a higher level of quality then for whiskey barrels for a couple of reasons.
> 
> First, the char of a whisky barrel acts as an activated filter helping to filter out not so pleasant chemicals in the wood. These means that staves for whiskey barrels are not seasoned as long. Due to the lack of charring in wine barrels, all of those chemicals need to be leeched out through seasoning of at least 2 years before they can be used.
> 
> ...



good points - i have been reading that chestnut, which is very closely related to oak, used to be one of the most common species for cooperages, but is slightly more porous, which is one reason oak won out over it

But for me, I only produce a couple gallons at a time and will not be aging in a barrel, but rather just infusing, so my advantage is that I am only really concerned about imparted flavor and aroma


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## MiBor (Apr 28, 2021)

Kitchen said:


> Whiskey has a decent amount of sugar in it, so staves can have small knots or fishers, which the sugar will clog up and prevent leakage.


I don't believe that's a correct statement. Whiskey coming out of the still and going into barrels for aging doesn't have much sugar in it. The sugar is added later, just before bottling to enhance the taste. Whiskey barrels are allowed to be made from lower quality wood for economic reasons. Most distilleries have a resident cooper on site that can easily fix leaky barrels, where most wineries can't afford that and need a guarantee that the barrels won't leak.

Regardless, all alcoholic beverages benefit from aging in wood barrels, with higher proof ones being less prone to oxidation during the aging period. That's the main reason a lot of whiskey/brandy/scotch brands age their product 10-15 years in a barrel before release, but you won't see a wine aged 10 years in the barrel sold anywhere.
I'm interested in experimenting with different wood types for flavoring wine, but finding a reliable supply of these wood products is a challenge.


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## Kitchen (Apr 28, 2021)

MiBor said:


> I don't believe that's a correct statement. Whiskey coming out of the still and going into barrels for aging doesn't have much sugar in it. The sugar is added later, just before bottling to enhance the taste. Whiskey barrels are allowed to be made from lower quality wood for economic reasons. Most distilleries have a resident cooper on site that can easily fix leaky barrels, where most wineries can't afford that and need a guarantee that the barrels won't leak.
> 
> Regardless, all alcoholic beverages benefit from aging in wood barrels, with higher proof ones being less prone to oxidation during the aging period. That's the main reason a lot of whiskey/brandy/scotch brands age their product 10-15 years in a barrel before release, but you won't see a wine aged 10 years in the barrel sold anywhere.
> I'm interested in experimenting with different wood types for flavoring wine, but finding a reliable supply of these wood products is a challenge.



I tend to disagree. I think a decent amount of sugar does get through the still and into the final product after distillation. My wife and I are both photographers and she had a project last year at a bourbon distiller in NJ. They do not add anything to the product after distilling, but they produce a sweet product none-the-less. 

With that being said, I do think that it is hard to find coopers willing to make small barrels for hobbyists out of anything beside oak. There is just no market for it. With my situation, I am experimenting with doing barrel aged mead on a commercial scale, so it was a palatable project for the cooper. With that being said, I still have yet to find any cooper in America using Acacia besides him, so I feel it is a great coincidence he is located in my state, PA.


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## MiBor (Apr 28, 2021)

> I picked up five 10 gallon barrels from a local cooperage this past Monday, two Romanian Oak (M & M+ with LT heads), on American Oak (M+ with LT heads), one Acacia (LT) and one Frankenstein with Acacia (LT) shell and oak (LT) heads.



@Kitchen Do you mind sharing with us who the cooper is in PA who sells those hybrid barrels?


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## Ty520 (Apr 28, 2021)

Kitchen said:


> I tend to disagree. I think a decent amount of sugar does get through the still and into the final product after distillation. My wife and I are both photographers and she had a project last year at a bourbon distiller in NJ. They do not add anything to the product after distilling, but they produce a sweet product none-the-less.
> 
> With that being said, I do think that it is hard to find coopers willing to make small barrels for hobbyists out of anything beside oak. There is just no market for it. With my situation, I am experimenting with doing barrel aged mead on a commercial scale, so it was a palatable project for the cooper. With that being said, I still have yet to find any cooper in America using Acacia besides him, so I feel it is a great coincidence he is located in my state, PA.



I know a local distiller who uses mesquite barrels for their bourbon, which is a subspecies of acacia. Not sure if that would work for you. However, mesquite is much more expensive because it is a desert tree.

I have heard from a colleague who does high end millwork that there has been some issues with ethically sourcing acacia - they won't even sell it at a local wood workers shop now for fear of accidentally getting into a legal problem


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## Kitchen (Apr 28, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> I know a local distiller who uses mesquite barrels for their bourbon, which is a subspecies of acacia. Not sure if that would work for you. However, mesquite is much more expensive because it is a desert tree.
> 
> I have heard from a colleague who does high end millwork that there has been some issues with ethically sourcing acacia - they won't even sell it at a local wood workers shop now for fear of accidentally getting into a legal problem



Most Acacia for barrels comes from France and is actually Black Locust, the nominal name, and very invasive. It is not really a rare wood, only very hard and, as such, not easy to saw or mill. If you know what Locust bark looks like, you see it all over the eastern seaboard. It is very distinct and not uncommon. I see it all of the time in and around Philly. 

They tend to grow like weeds though. They are really good at asexual repruction and send up shoots after a root system has developed. If you plant one Locust tree, in 10 years you will have quite a few growing around that initial one. The wood though is not pretty and is piss greenish yellow, and not something traditionally used for anything else then utility wood, like for fence posts on farms. Think of poplar, only less appealing in color. It is extremely hard, resistant to rot, and burns so hot it is not good to use for a firewood unless you have a stove designed for coal. It will re-temper a wood burning stoves if you use it for heating wood. It will also dull blades on saw on the same level as Teak.

France imported a decent amount of Black Locust in the 1800s and 1900s before its invasiveness was apparent and they are dealing with the issues. This is why I think Acacia was initially utilized in wine barrels, to take care of the issue. 

It also produces an abundance of tyloses, like oak, which are hardened mineral deposits in the xylem and phloem of the heartwood that clogs up the "veins" preventing leakage. Other hardwoods, like Maple, do not produce nearly as much and is why those woods are not used for barrels. Without tyloses, the barrels will leak. I can see mesquite being more rare due to the growing environment, but Acacia is now part of the French environment now and needs to be cleared.


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## Ty520 (Apr 29, 2021)

So A friend of mine who is a fine wood worker may be able to get a hold of some alternative woods (organic, chemical free, ethically sourced, sterilized and food grade). The only caveat is that I need to buy full planks, which will be more then I could ever use.

I Will be ripping them into beans and long beans for personal use. If there is ever enough demand, I can even put them on a CNC and make honeycombs, or any custom size or shape to order

Some will be easy to find - others may not happen, especially if there isn't enough interest

He's trying to hunt down the following:


Acacia
Apple
Apricot
Ash
Birch
Cherry
Chestnut
Hickory
Maple
Pear
Spanish oak
Oregon oak
Is the idea of having access to alternative, out of the ordinary woods appealing to any of you?


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## Kitchen (Apr 30, 2021)

If you do an Youtube search on the following two phrases you will find a couple of interesting videos on this subject. 

"Can I Age With Different Woods? Lets Test It!"

"Assessing The Wood Experiment"

I would post the videos directly, but this guy's hobby is not wine making and not something we can discuss directly here.


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## CDrew (Apr 30, 2021)

One of the wineries near me experimented one year with Acacia barrels. Highly touted the wine, charged $35 per bottle. 3 months later it was $100 per case because they could not sell it. And honestly, I tasted it two times and thought it was terrible. I can say that it was not drinkable at any price. Anyway, I'd keep the experiment pretty small so you don't waste too much wine. There is a reason that wine making has almost exclusively settled on white oak, and even that should be used in moderation.


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## Ty520 (Apr 30, 2021)

CDrew said:


> One of the wineries near me experimented one year with Acacia barrels. Highly touted the wine, charged $35 per bottle. 3 months later it was $100 per case because they could not sell it. And honestly, I tasted it two times and thought it was terrible. I can say that it was not drinkable at any price. Anyway, I'd keep the experiment pretty small so you don't waste too much wine. There is a reason that wine making has almost exclusively settled on white oak, and even that should be used in moderation.



I don't plan to use it just for grape wine - also mead, and country wine

I would also highly disagree.

Oak is the most widely used wood because it is the most populace hardwood in the world. At one point, Chestnut was just as popular. The wine world has a habit of forcing status quo as sacred, and has plenty of it's own sacred cows that anyone else would objectively consider faults - and at one point, were.

The other factor is practicality for cooperages - some woods aren't easy for crafting staves - but they can work just fine for beans or honeycombs

In multiple blind taste tests, other woods have outperformed oak; or it may not be great for one varietal but can be exceptional for others

finally, alternate hardwoods are very popular in the distilling community. 

It simply comes down to how conservative/traditional or adventurous/experimental you are.


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## Kitchen (Apr 30, 2021)

Wine is an over saturated market with strongly defined regional palates. The differences in variations tend to be small, and introducing something experimental can be a hard thing to do. 

For example, in America, breakfast pastries have sweet fruit fillings. In Cuba, they have savory pork fillings, which was odd and off putting when I first tried one. That does not mean it is bad, just hard for me to wrap my head around and not something I think would sell here. 

So, for acacia, I have read that most of the wineries in CA that use it are only aging 5% to 15% of any one vintage and then blending with the remaining vintage. More European wineries are using it at 50% to 100% new Acacia, but Europe probably has developed a palate for already, making it easier to sell over there. 

I think using alternative wood for meads in the USA would be easier to sell since there is no American palate developed for mead, yet.


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## Ty520 (Apr 30, 2021)

Kitchen said:


> Wine is an over saturated market with strongly defined regional palates. The differences tend to be small, and introducing something experimental can be a hard thing to do.
> 
> For example, in America, breakfast pastries have sweet fruit fillings. In Cuba, they have savory pork fillings, which was odd and off putting when I first tried one. That does not mean it is bad, just hard for me to wrap my head around.
> 
> I think using alternative wood for meads would be easier to sell since there is no palate developed for mead, yet.



Agree for the most part - but I also think it is very easy in today's market to establish a niche with a dedicated following by branching out - some people have even built an entire reputation on it.

After all, it wasn't very long ago that oaking completely fell out of fashion all together for a time; some people despise oaked wine entirely

There's also the issue of "unknown unknowns." You can't really know you have a preference for something when there's nothing to compare it to.

As I also briefly mentioned before, some blind taste testings have actually found that alternative species has outperformed oak - and in not just wine, but spirits as well.

It would be very interesting to do a more expansive blind taste test of combinations of both varietals and woods to try to strip away confirmation bias as much as possible, and see what people consider to objectively be "better" and "good" without the ability to be influenced by what is tradition (i.e., by not telling someone they're tasting a Chardonnay, they cannot graft on expectations of what it '_should_' taste like.)

I'd be willing to wager that it there would be as many people (50/50 split) who find oak alternatives just as palatable, and another segment who would consider them better.


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## balatonwine (May 2, 2021)

Kitchen said:


> Black Locust..... and burns so hot it is not good to use for a firewood unless you have a stove designed for coal.



Sorry, but not true. I often burn black locust in my wood stove.









Spring is coming. Time to prepare for winter.


As the northern hemisphere marches toward spring, my thoughts turn to winter. Future winters, that is. Our yearly household heating is done almost entirely by wood, with some minor backup and space…




stcoemgen.com





It is a dense wood and has a lot of BTU in it, and burns a long time, and has similar energy density as anthracite coal, but does not burn the same as anthracite, nor does it burn especially hot compared to other woods. Actually, the hottest wood I have burned is beech. If you find otherwise, then you may be using your wood stove wrong.


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## balatonwine (May 2, 2021)

Kitchen said:


> Black Locust.... The wood though is not pretty and is piss greenish yellow



A matter of opinion. I for one like the green color of the sap wood (a more subtle green color than say, Cocobolo). Not too un-similar to a budding grape leaf. But the heart wood is more brown.





__





Black Locust | The Wood Database (Hardwood)







www.wood-database.com





Our interior cellar door is made from black locust. If left outside, UV lights turns this wood gray, but the lovely light green color persists in spots on our door in our cellar.


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## balatonwine (May 2, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> I'd be willing to wager that it there would be as many people (50/50 split) who find oak alternatives just as palatable, and another segment who would consider them better.



I for one agree that wood alternatives may be appreciated by many. 

But think a 50/50 split is ignoring those not wanting added wood at all... So to taste the real grape and its real Terroir outside of added flavors. After all, ancient wines use to be flavored with herbs and spices as a matter of course as part of the wine making process to improve the taste of the wine (much like wood "aging" is practiced today). Yet, adding spices is not done too much today (expect for "mulled wine"). Just something to think about.


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## wood1954 (May 2, 2021)

Had to jump in and defend black locust it’s a great wood not for wine tho, 
these two chairs I made last year look even better now that I put Thompson water seal on them. I don’t think the wood has much odor or flavor compared to oak cherry or walnut.


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## Ty520 (May 2, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> I for one agree that wood alternatives may be appreciated by many.
> 
> But think a 50/50 split is ignoring those not wanting added wood at all... So to taste the real grape and its real Terroir outside of added flavors. After all, ancient wines use to be flavored with herbs and spices as a matter of course as part of the wine making process to improve the taste of the wine (much like wood "aging" is practiced today). Yet, adding spices is not done too much today (expect for "mulled wine"). Just something to think about.



Oh sure, but if wood aging isn't your cup of tea, none of this would be of interest. only those who enjoy wood aged beverages ( including use in meads and spirits)


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## balatonwine (May 2, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> Oh sure, but if wood aging isn't your cup of tea, none of this would be of interest. only those who enjoy wood aged beverages ( including use in meads and spirits)



That is like saying a saloon is of no interest to a temperance movement...

Ergo, one's level of "interest" might be more complicated. Including injecting some lateral thinking.


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## Kitchen (Jun 4, 2021)

I just tasted a mead made with spring honey that I have sitting in a 12 gallon Acacia barrel. The flavor is real nice already; I am getting notes of apple, pear, honeysuckle, butter and cream. It is taking on a wine-like flavor but still obviously mead. Still a ways from being finished though. 

I have noticed that the rate of evaporation is pretty extreme with Acacia. On a full size barrel, I would guess around 4 bottles per month of loss in volume. I will be topping this one off semi-monthly.


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## Ty520 (Jul 19, 2021)

A local vinter has started utilizing hybrid barrels, composed of oak staves and acacia heads, and it seems to be a growing trend, at least here - could be an interesting experiment to play around with 'blending' woods, like one would the ingredients of the wine itself


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## SSNJOHN (Sep 29, 2021)

JTS84 said:


> I don't know if this might save you some work, but take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was really interesting. They didn't even mention the "cat piss" notes from their Red Oak:+)


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## winemaker81 (Sep 29, 2021)

SSNJOHN said:


> This was really interesting. They didn't even mention the "cat piss" notes from their Red Oak:+)


Everything I've read about red oak said it was a bad choice. This is an area where I'm not willing to be a tester.


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## Ty520 (Sep 29, 2021)

SSNJOHN said:


> This was really interesting. They didn't even mention the "cat piss" notes from their Red Oak:+)



I've been discovering that these bad notes tend to be a result of green wood and high resin content. Long aging can remedy it


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## DaveMcC (Dec 30, 2021)

We had a couple of big chestnut trees come down over the last 2 or more years. I've got loads of cut wood blocks out in the yard and will try toasting some chips or sticks for use in some of the wines I currently have going. Will post my results somewhere down the line. 

I also used half a spiral stick of "Spanish Cedar" (a type of mahogany), marketed to the beer brewing folk I think, in my Malbec from last year. Half a stick was a bit much for 6 gallons and wished I'd used half that much, but an interesting flavor. It is "cigar box" wood, so if you've ever put your nose to one of those, minus the tobacco aromas of course, then you have that spicy, sandalwood effect. I may use a half stick in 15 gallons of Tempranillo.


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## Addsae36 (Nov 11, 2022)

I recently bottled a apple wine that I added apple wood to. It had a sweeter smell to it than previous non wooded apple wines I made. And I’m not sure if it’s just this particular ferment but it seems that an apple juice flavor comes through more with this one with the apple wood chips.


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## Ty520 (Nov 11, 2022)

Addsae36 said:


> I recently bottled a apple wine that I added apple wood to. It had a sweeter smell to it than previous non wooded apple wines I made. And I’m not sure if it’s just this particular ferment but it seems that the an apple juice flavor comes out more with this one with the apple wood chips.



I've heard that to be the case with fruit tree wood, and this is good, albeit anecdotal, confirmation


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