# The use of mineral oil to "top up" a carboy



## BernardSmith (Apr 24, 2013)

I tried to post this question earlier today but I don't see that it was successfully received. My apologies if this is a duplicate posting. Anyway,
Alison Crowe in her book The Wine Maker's Answer Book talks about a traditional method of solving the problem of too much air space in a carboy - and that is pouring in a layer of food grade mineral oil (found in the digestive aids section of a pharmacy) of about 1/8 inch She suggests that this will work for about a month to prevent oxidation and bacterial infection. Crowe says that such oil does not affect the taste or smell of the wine but that the wine needs to be carefully racked off the oil and she describes how to do this. My question: Has anyone on this forum used this technique? How easy would it be to clean a carboy into which oil has been added?


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## GreginND (Apr 24, 2013)

Not interested in adding mineral oil to my wine at all. In principle the oil will float on top and may help protect the wine. But I would think oxygen would still diffuse, albeit slower, into the wine.


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## MNwino (Apr 25, 2013)

Seriously? Mineral Oil lol? You know one thing ive learned from this forum is people have fear of the Oxidation boogyman. Just like brewers fear the autolysis boogyman. Can Oxidation happen? Yes, but its not such a worry that you need to mineral oil your wine.


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## Runningwolf (Apr 25, 2013)

I agree with Greg and what happens when you start racking below the oil and it goes from a 2" circle in the neck to being spread out over 12" as it lowers.


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## dangerdave (Apr 25, 2013)

And try cleaning the mineral oil out of that carboy!


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## Rocky (Apr 25, 2013)

Bernard, long ago (in the 1960's) we used olive oil on top of the wine stored in gallon jugs. While I think it worked effectively as a barrier against air, it was a real pain to get out of the wine. No matter how careful one was, there would always be a minimal amount of tiny oil globules floating on top. However, being of Italian heritage, just about everything that we ate was cooked in olive oil or had olive oil on it, we did not see it as more than an aesthetic problem.


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## ibglowin (Apr 25, 2013)

Bet it would keep things "flowing" downstairs.......


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## jswordy (Apr 25, 2013)

Rocky, that interesting experience. I would suppose a bit of the mineral oil would cling to your racking cane as you put it in the wine, and then naturally get sucked up with the racked fluids. No thanks. A $3 bottle of wine tops off nicely.

I also agree with MNwine, that oxidation is perhaps more of a worry than justified among winemakers. We can't be lax about this, but we do tend to obsess over it, too.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 26, 2013)

Bernard - I also was thinking along those similar lines awhile ago - here is that thread 
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/oil-top-wine-prevent-oxidation-

After discussing it - I never tried it,nor do I plan on trying it either. I did come up with a product to take up the excess head space 
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/new-product-removal-excessive-head-space-17891/

But with all the feedback that I have gotten back, it is just easier to top off with a similar wine. 
I agree and follow the same practice myself


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## JohnT (Apr 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Bernard, long ago (in the 1960's) we used olive oil on top of the wine stored in gallon jugs. While I think it worked effectively as a barrier against air, it was a real pain to get out of the wine. No matter how careful one was, there would always be a minimal amount of tiny oil globules floating on top. However, being of Italian heritage, just about everything that we ate was cooked in olive oil or had olive oil on it, we did not see it as more than an aesthetic problem.


 

Rocky, 

I have heard about this, but I am not too sure if olive oil can go rancid. I do know that there is an oil (forgot who marketed it) that is specifically designed for this winemaking purpose. 

After looking at the price of the oil and the issues with cleanining equipment after use, I decided that topping off with store bought wine is a far better way to go.


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## seth8530 (Apr 26, 2013)

I think it might work in principle.. But I would not try it out with one of my good wines first.. Maybe you could experiment around with a batch of hootch and see how it works?


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## JohnT (Apr 26, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> I think it might work in principle.. But I would not try it out with one of my good wines first.. Maybe you could experiment around with a batch of hootch and see how it works?


 
I know that this can work. Heck, it has got to be better than air! Oil makes a good barrier (but not a perfect one). I know that they have been doing this since the roman times. Think about it, they did not have bottles, they had either large jars or barrels (much later). By using oil, they converted their vessel into one of "variable capacity". 

The point I was trying to make was that (for very long term storage) you may want to use something other than olive oil. This is a picture of the product I remember.....


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## BernardSmith (Apr 26, 2013)

As always, Thanks to everyone who responded. I guess my question was whether anyone had actually used this technique of adding mineral oil as a barrier and if so had they had no problems removing the oil from the carboy afterwards. Crowe does not discuss how easy/challenging it is to remove the oil from the walls of the carboy and so the cost to benefit might be too large to consider but she says that she has used oil to good effect.


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## joeswine (Apr 26, 2013)

*Roman times*

THIS WAS APPLIED IN THE ROMAN TIMES TO PRESERVE THE WINE,THE TRICK TO REMOVING THE OIL IS NOT TO,INSERT THE RACKING HOSE INTO THE WINE JUST PASSED THE OIL,BLOW A LITTLE AIR IN THE HOSE TO EJECT THE OIL AND DRAW FROM THE BOTTOM AS ALWAYS,AND SO IT WAS PASSED OF THOUGH GENERATIONS AND TIME.IT DOES WORK ,BUT TECHNIQUES CHANGED, WINE EVOLVED AND THE BEAT GOES ON.


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## robie (Apr 26, 2013)

It is reported that early Romans kept their wine from oxidizing by pouring a layer of olive oil on top of their wine. OOPS! Joe already wrote that!

I agree with most of what has been said. It would be a real bear trying to get all of the oil out of the carboy. I don't know if mineral oil can become rancid or not but that could be a big issue as well.


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## GreginND (Apr 26, 2013)

There are better ways to prevent oxidation (appropriate sized containers to keep topped up).


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## robie (Apr 26, 2013)

I have zero experience with such a thing, but it seems to me it would be better to first suck off all the oil with a turkey baster. Even then you aren't going to get it all out and what little is left is going to run down the inside of the carboy.


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## mikey1273 (Apr 26, 2013)

When I took my class on beginning wine making at the local home brew/wince shop they told us 3 ways to top up 

1 add water, Okay but some object that it waters down your vintage. 
2 add a similar cheap store bought wine 
3 drop glass marbles are those glass floral beads that you can buy are wal-mart in there to displace the wine and bring the level up. they need sanitized of course. They also told us that during fining the sediment settles between them making it easy to rack or bottle with with out sucking it up.

I have not needed but I have some beads on hand for this, I liked the idea that you don't dilute your wine or add anything to it that could change the flavor.


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## Polarhug (Apr 26, 2013)

I bet that's how salad dressing was invented. Dregs of wine chunks and oil at the bottom... what shall we do with it?

*throws up a little in my mouth*


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## Kleftiwallah (Apr 26, 2013)

How about filling the air gap using nitrogen? Cheers, Tony.


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## robie (Apr 26, 2013)

Polarhug said:


> I bet that's how salad dressing was invented. Dregs of wine chunks and oil at the bottom... what shall we do with it?
> 
> *throws up a little in my mouth*





Now that just might be how it happened!!! Makes sense to me.


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## robie (Apr 26, 2013)

Kleftiwallah said:


> How about filling the air gap using nitrogen? Cheers, Tony.





That does work but is considered a temporary solution. One has to add more nitrogen fairly regularly in order to be protected. (Argon works better I believe, but is still a stop-gap.)


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## BernardSmith (Apr 26, 2013)

Tony, Is nitrogen heavier or lighter than air? I thought the molar mass of N2 was less than O2, but air is 80 percent nitrogen so wouldn't the air displace the N2 buffer and allow the O2 access to the wine ? I can see using argon or another noble gas but how would you effectively monitor over time whether there was enough gas between the surface of the wine and the air. But that said, nitrogen is not a noble gas. Would it not tend to react with the water in the wine and produce... ammonia?


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## novalou (Apr 26, 2013)

BernardSmith said:


> Tony, Is nitrogen heavier or lighter than air? I thought the molar mass of N2 was less than O2, but air is 80 percent nitrogen so wouldn't the air displace the N2 buffer and allow the O2 access to the wine ? I can see using argon or another noble gas but how would you effectively monitor over time whether there was enough gas between the surface of the wine and the air. But that said, nitrogen is not a noble gas. Would it not tend to react with the water in the wine and produce... ammonia?



Nitrogen is lighter than air, but is pretty stable on its own. It is an easy gas to buy in bulk, so if you were to purge your carboy with it, you could effectively displace the oxygen.

If you want a heavier, "Nobel" gas, use argon.


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## Downwards (Apr 26, 2013)

I did a cherry wine from dried cherries that were oiled with a bit of safflower. In the secondary I did have about a sixteenth of an inch of oil on top. It really wasn't hard to rack out at all. Yeah, you had some mistakes when you racked it where a little bit would come with it, but you know you're going to rack again anyway. It's very like sediment, only instead of knowing it will fall out, you just know it will rise up eventually.


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## joeswine (Apr 27, 2013)

*oil and wine*

In this day and age I wouldn't think anyone would really want to place oil on top of the wine to protect it,the reference to the romans was fact,but we are not in those times ,are we?marbles scare me thinking (did I chip any placing them in the carboy)when having the proper size carboys or bottles and racking down- is the way to go,or applying a inert gas like nitrogen or others also can suffice if need be,we've come along way baby from there to here as wine maker.


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## seth8530 (Apr 27, 2013)

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas-density-d_158.html

Nitrogen has a density very similar to air since our air is made mostly of Nitrogen.. Using this table it seems to me that the best choice for keeping a nice thick blanket on your wine would be propane since it is 1.56 times a dense as air. Plus it is really easy to get your hands on.... 

However, if you really wanted to do it well I would recommend xenon since it is nearly 7 times as dense as air.. Its just a little harder to get your hands on.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 27, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas-density-d_158.html
> 
> Nitrogen has a density very similar to air since our air is made mostly of Nitrogen.. Using this table it seems to me that the best choice for keeping a nice thick blanket on your wine would be propane since it is 1.56 times a dense as air. Plus it is really easy to get your hands on....
> 
> However, if you really wanted to do it well I would recommend xenon since it is nearly 7 times as dense as air.. Its just a little harder to get your hands on.




Dont they put an additive in propane in order for you to smell it ?? 
I dont want my wine smelling like propane - 
There has been many topics about this and it is only good for short term storage - no matter what type of gas is used


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## joeswine (Apr 27, 2013)

*what to do?????????????????*

short term,gas is the best ,however,having the correct tools is always the preferred method,topping off, if it's what you like,racking down to the correct size is what I prefer,if your going to make wine in any volume then you need to have the correct tools and judgment when performing the task at hand. to each his or her own...........that's is what wine making is all about.............all that counts is what the finish product taste like or doesn't..........then THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 27, 2013)

Check these 2 threads - I always will go back and refer to them -
they talk about inert gas - and topping of the headspace in the carboy

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/inert-gas-use-solid-bung-vs-airlock-36946/

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/how-not-top-off-36795/

I hope this helps


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## seth8530 (Apr 27, 2013)

BTW I was kidding about propane, much safer gasses can be used instead lol


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 27, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> BTW I was kidding about propane, much safer gasses can be used instead lol



You got me on that one !! I just pictured someone actually doing it because - Hey if it is on the web it must be true - LOL


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## seth8530 (Apr 27, 2013)

Yeah, its one of those things that would work in principle I believe.. But most likely not a good idea.


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## novalou (Apr 27, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Yeah, its one of those things that would work in principle I believe.. But most likely not a good idea.



I did think you were nuts for recommending it....


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## thesnow (Apr 28, 2013)

Hi, all
I use vegetable oil (Mazola corn oil). It works very well as an air barrier. It does not alter the taste of win. To remove the oil I would use a syringe and slowly suck up the oil. The biggest draw back is cleaning; oil gets into everything, carboy, tubes... its very messy and takes long to clean.


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## albertborg (Apr 28, 2013)

Hi there,
Here in Malta, I use pure vaselline oil, which is specifically made for the purpose to seal the wine from air .There are many different brands, and it is used in all major wine producing countries, like Italy. It is also used to protect the wine from oxidization, in stainless steal open top tanks, with floating lids. In this case, the oil is poored around the floating lid directly on the wine, to seal the gap between the lid and the tank.


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## seth8530 (Apr 28, 2013)

albertborg said:


> Hi there,
> Here in Malta, I use pure vaselline oil, which is specifically made for the purpose to seal the wine from air .There are many different brands, and it is used in all major wine producing countries, like Italy. It is also used to protect the wine from oxidization, in stainless steal open top tanks, with floating lids. In this case, the oil is poored around the floating lid directly on the wine, to seal the gap between the lid and the tank.



WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!!!

Very interesting concept, how do you keep the oil out of the finished wine?


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## albertborg (Apr 28, 2013)

The oil floats on top of the wine, so when racking the wine, one should start from the mid section of the carboy. In my case it is very simple cos I have stainless steel tanks with a tap situated about 4 inches from the bottom.

When I finish, I put the remaining wine with the oil in a carboy, and when the oil is all on top, I do the same procedure ( pull wine from the bottom ). I also have a certain equipment, with which I can pull the oil when it settles on top of the wine in the carboy. Obviously, the carboy must be filled to the top, so the oil can be easily reached from the neck of the carboy. One can easily find these sort of gadjets, at any wine store


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## joeswine (Apr 28, 2013)

*world of wine*

so you see there is more to the wine world than anyone of use are a ware of and we find out daily about it RIGHT HERE.


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## JohnT (Apr 29, 2013)

kleftiwallah said:


> how about filling the air gap using nitrogen? Cheers, tony.


 

oh no, not this again!!!!!!


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 29, 2013)

JohnT said:


> oh no, not this again!!!!!!



Don't worry John - 
I did post rather earlier on 2 great threads on topping off and use of inert gases 

Steve


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## john-c (Apr 29, 2013)

Urgh - the single greatest test of a winemaker is keeping their fingers out of the pie while mother nature does her thing. Too many adjustments and you have crap wine even though the numbers might be in the sweet spot (I think all winemakers learn this lesson at some point in their endeavors). The last thing I would want to introduce is something else to have to dink with later. Some things you cant get away from like bentonite in whites, but as a hobbyist you are probably not sitting on a reverse osmosis machine to separate that oil out of the liquid medium. If you know your Alc% (or at least ball parked it by 54% of brix) you may get away with adding distilled water especially if you are oaking it and your pH is low. Adding the cheapo wine is also a way to go, but you have to consider pH and TA of that cheapo and what it might do to your wine numbers and stability there of (more a concern in whites). Lastly there is glass (one of my favs). You can really suck up a bunch of space displacing the air with a dense solid like glass marbles or glass anything else that fits through the hole you can get clean and sanitary. Long story is don't add anything that interacts with the wine unless you absolutely know it is going to add to the overall quality through bench trials, or be absolutely benign and impart nothing to the wine.


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## joeswine (Feb 12, 2014)

*What wine makers do?*

ALL WINE MAKERS HAVE THEIR FINGERS IN THE PIE THAT IS HOW WINE IS MADE WHETHER YOUR A HOME WINEMAKER OR A PROFESSIONAL,ADJUSTMENTS ARE A WAY OF LIFE IN THIS WORLD.

 I DO AGREE THAT ONE SHOULD KNOW THE WINE PROCESS AND THE TOOLS OF THE TRADE,YET EVER WINE MANUFACTURE OUT THERE ADJUSTS ,ADDS,AND CORRECTS TO TASTE ,HIS OR HERS WINES PROFILE. .
 RACKING DOWN IS ALWAYS THE BEST COURSE IF REQUIRED,MARBLES IS NOT A GOOD CHOICE,BUT SOME HAVE TRIED AND SUCCEEDED WITH THEM,WE ALL TRY DIFFERENT WAYS OF DOING THE SAME PROJECT,PERFECT EXAMPLE,I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE* MLF PROCESS* FOR HOME WINEMAKERS,YET ALOT HAVE DONE IT WITH GREAT SUCCESS DOES THAT MEAN THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TRIED,TRYING IS HOW WE GROW, *FAILING *IS HOW WE ALSO LEARN....*SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO FAIL TO* *LEARN.*


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## jamesngalveston (Feb 12, 2014)

joeswine, I consider you one of the for runners for experimenting...Hats off to you...
Now that said...
If you start reading all the white papers on wine making from various universtitys, etc...you will find that not one is written about, peaches,blackberrys, strawberrys are any other fruit but grapes.
THere has not been any research in to making fruit wines except that which is grapes.
Is a grape fruit..yes...is a strawberry are black berry , yes.
Should you treat them exactly as a grape...I say no.
Filet Mignon is beef, so is a chuck steak, would you cook them the same.
A pork tender loin is pork, so is a pork jowl...you wouldnt cook them the same.
It seems to me that everything about fruit wine making has been copied pasted, copied again, and said over and over again about how to make fruit wine, using grape recipes...
In other words, remove the name grape, add in blackberry and you have blackberry wine.
I do not agree...I think we, the people that are trying different things, are the ones writing the white papers on fruit wine making...

Example...Should a blackberry, age for a year to clear and degass to make it taste good, are can you manually degass and use a finning agent to get to the same taste....I really do not know.
I am sitting aside 50 gallons this year for a year to find out.
My bet is on no.
Will it help a grape wine treated accordingly...History has proven so.
But there is no history to rely for a blackberry,strawberry,peach, are what ever.
my thoughts nly JO.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 12, 2014)

James you are so right. I can't believe no one ever figured that out before and now you're going to be the forerunner and figure out how to make fruit wine. After several thousand years where the heck have you been. I've got a feeling the entire wine world is going to change when you get done with your 50 gallon batch. That's awesome.

Look at silly me crushing 1800 lbs. blueberries with a grape crusher. What the he!l was I thinking?


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## jamesngalveston (Feb 12, 2014)

LOL..im not figuring out anything..
where is there research on a non grape wine. not a recipe, not a copy paste . but some real research....if you could give me a link i would greatly appreciate it...and not by someone selling juice, equipment,etc...but some hard research.


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## joeswine (Feb 12, 2014)

*comments????????????*

Maybe i should have read this thread from the beginning i was just commenting on john c statement,about making adjustments.

MOST OF THIS THREAD IS ON OIL, ON WINE,


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## Runningwolf (Feb 12, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> LOL..im not figuring out anything..
> where is there research on a non grape wine. not a recipe, not a copy paste . but some real research....if you could give me a link i would greatly appreciate it...and not by someone selling juice, equipment,etc...but some hard research.



James those white papers are just a guide you can wipe with. The real research is bench trials and tasting. As Joe tells us all along his journeys, it's the science that begins the process but it's art that finalizes the product.

You talk about no copy and pastes, dang near all of your posts are copy and pastes and not experience.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 12, 2014)

joeswine said:


> Maybe i should have read this thread from the beginning i was just commenting on john c statement,about making adjustments.
> 
> MOST OF THIS THREAD IS ON OIL, ON WINE,




I was thinking that myself as it is an old thread -


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## BernardSmith (Feb 12, 2014)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with James. There are many, many academic and scholarly papers on the use of fruits other than grapes for wine if for no other reason than because people in Asia and Africa want to be able to produce and consume wine made from local fruits rather than import grape wine. The first reference is for a wine made from papaya , the second is for mango wine, the third is for banana wine, fourth includes pawpaw

http://pelagiaresearchlibrary.com/advances-in-applied-science/vol2-iss3/AASR-2011-2-3-37-46.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01093217
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:QUAL.0000041138.29467.b6
http://www.usa-journals.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Awe1_Vol112.pdf


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## RegionRat (Feb 14, 2014)

Has anyone heard of or read anything by Jack Keller?

RR


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## Runningwolf (Feb 14, 2014)

RegionRat said:


> Has anyone heard of or read anything by Jack Keller?
> 
> RR



Did he do White papers?


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## LoneStarLori (Feb 14, 2014)

I have done at least 3 of his recipes. I love his website.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 14, 2014)

It's amazing how much that guy has made and documented. I understand some of his recipe's are short on fruit but what a wonderful resource as most people tweak recipe's anyways to their own style.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 14, 2014)

Dan -
I must agree - I have been reading his post as long as I've been making wine !!!


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## LoneStarLori (Feb 14, 2014)

Speaking of Jack, I saw this wine cellar on craigslist a couple of weeks ago and wondered if it might be his. He lives in Pleasanton TX and it's not a very big town.Wish I had $2200 I could part with.

*Wine cellar on craigs list*


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