# Science VS Tradition



## JohnT (Jun 24, 2013)

Folks, 

I attended a graduation party over the weekend. I met this fella that was also a wine maker... 

The conversation when like this... 

me: oh, so you make wine also. What do you make? 

him: a blend of allicante and petit sarah. 

me: very nice. Petit sahrah is a wonderful grape. 

him: as good as any, still it is only good for 6 months or so.

me: 6 months? that does not sound right. What happens to the wine after 6 months?

him: it turns. I just do not understand it. I make it just like my grandfather did. 

me: and how is that. 

him: well, I crush it and put it in a barrel. 

me: and what type of yeast do you use? 

him: I add no yeast, in fact, I add nothing but grape juice. 

me: ok, when you say your wine "turns", what do you mean?

him: it sets like madera wine, fruity and thick. It is undrinkable! some years I end up throwing out about half of my wine.

me: sounds like it is oxidized. You need to check and adjust your acid.

him: No need

me: Actually, there is a need. An acid test kit is only about $8 and is just like check the chlorine level in a pool. Very easy to do and will go a long way in preventing your wine from spoiling. 

him: My grandfather never used any of this type of stuff. 

me: You should also bottle your wine rather than storring it in a half empty barrel.

him: Excuse me, I need to as my wife something.. 

{he didn't come near me for the rest of the evening}. 


I really need to remember that not all people want my advice.


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## Julie (Jun 24, 2013)

Well, JohnT it was a good try. I know a guy like that, I gave him a bottle of my wine and he has never talked to be about wine again, if I start he changes the subject.


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## FABulousWines (Jun 24, 2013)

Hmm, to each his own I guess. If you wanna throw out half your wine like dear old dad did, then more power to ya! I personally like to learn, improve, and grow, but I recognize not all people are that way. I suspect he just likes to keep it simple and is willing to deal with the occasional loss.

Kudos for the effort, anyway.


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## novalou (Jun 24, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Folks,
> 
> I attended a graduation party over the weekend. I met this fella that was also a wine maker...
> 
> ...



Sounds like a conversation I'd have with my Dad. He's old school and not interested in "modern" wine making.


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## jswordy (Jun 24, 2013)

Sorry, JohnT, but I'll just disagree on this. That is not TRADITION, that is just a POOR WINEMAKER!

You go around to the old neighborhoods where "traditional" wine is made, they know who's making rotgut and who knows what they are doing. It's the same with "modern" wine. 

I just drank a $14.99 bottle of 2009 Pinot Noir from the Left Coast over the weekend that had huge bouquet promise when the cork came out but then was flat and lifeless and refused to open up. My wife said, "Open one of yours instead, please." I'd better not use the vineyard's name.

We used to have a guy onsite who made big batches of "traditional wine" and was darn good at it, so there are ways to make it right. The truck would arrive, everyone would unload their grapes and they'd all go make a couple huge batches each, once a year. That's how my grandfather did it, as did my mother's cousin in his brother's family, who was until his death involved a lot with promoting grape growing and wine in Western Illinois. 

In my grandpa's case, he and his paisans would get together and compare their wines and what they did, so as to improve their process each year. The chief matter when it comes to "traditional wines" is that you must be cleanly to a fault and, as you said, watch your oxygen exposure very closely because k meta won't be protecting against your errors. It's easier to make a small mistake into a big fault when the chemicals are not supporting you.

Anyway, my hard-earned lesson about advice is, if I'm not asked for it, don't give it. A fella once told me that a closed mind is like one of them newfangled Pampers diapers. Once it's all fastened up, people don't want to change it very often.


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## robie (Jun 24, 2013)

I agree with Jim.

Tradition can be good as long as it doesn't contradict good science.

I wonder how much wine his grand dad had to throw away... Much I would expect.


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## Tess (Jun 24, 2013)

Sounds like you visited my Friends brother in law the wine maker  you gotta look at it this way. He is doing it his way and no one is going to tell him any different. Its stubbornness that was probably handed down from his grandfather along with his wine making skills. 
Taste like brown garbage but its his wine. The only thing your gonna do is hurt feelings and cause arguments so its best to just shake your head and move on and have a bottle of your wine. I couldnt believe my friend told me he only likes his wine.


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## Runningwolf (Jun 24, 2013)

Lets face it, I believe there is an equal amount of bad homemade wine out there as there is good. When you tell people you make wine, how many bulk at trying it? We can educate if they want to listen. I have learned to taste their wine and ask questions. I feel them out and if they want my advice I'll talk with them but not to them. It's very touchy.

With that all said about home winemakers, lets talk commercial wineries. I can tell you I talk to many of them and there are wineries that don't know how to test for S02 and so many other things. Folks on this forum are further a head of them. I just spent several days in the Poconos at the largest wine festival in PA and I tasted a lot of bad wine. Comments I heard from the public there was very interesting.

Now for the hardest thing for me to do and I think JohnT and Julie will agree and join me in this endeavor, Keep my opinions and trying to give advice to myself until someone genuinely comes to me and asks.


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## roger80465 (Jun 24, 2013)

I have to agree, Runningwolf. There is a bunch of bad home grown wine out there. I have a friend who ferments anything that doesn't ferment him first. Most of it is pretty awful. A number of our friends had tried his wine and went out of our way to avoid trying it again. When I started making wine, the same friends were more than a little hesitant to try some. They only agreed to try it out of courtesy to the host. Needless to say, the results (CC Showcase Amarone) were considerably different. Many couples only wanted to share a sample but, after trying it, each wanted their own glass. That isn't intended to be a bragfest regarding my wines. We all know how good that Amarone is when you simply follow directions. Since that first tasting, I am always asked to bring wine to any gathering.

Jim, another way to view the open mind thing is this - a mind that is too open can allow your brain to fall out. Bet we all know someone who fits that description.


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## JohnT (Jun 25, 2013)

Well said everybody!

I see it this way, a tip or a piece of advice can be viewed as a critique of their wine, and a critique of their wine can be viewed as a critique against their family. Some will simply be offended. 

I try to be a open-minded as I can (except when it comes to Welches).
I will always accept people's opinions about my wine, then take stock on where the advice is comming from. To this end, I have a tee shirt that I wear that has "Please don't say it's good". I hate it when someone sips my wine, then simply says "it's good". This is not a good critique. Tell me why you like it or why you hate it. I want to know! This is how you improve. 

There is this recognized condition called "cellar pallet". It is a real condition where a winemaker only drink his/her wine and has his/her pallet adjusts accordingly. In other words, you could come to like horrible wine if that is all you drink. To combat this, it is suggested that winemakers should make it a point to sample a wide variety different wines and often.

I honestly believe that "cellar pallet" is very much real. This goes a long way in explaining why one might perfer wines that have major faults.


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## jswordy (Jun 25, 2013)

Yes John, I agree on cellar palate. I kind of go the opposite direction on this. I make my wine the way I like it, which is one of 3 reasons I make wine. If others don't like it - oh well! 

I have made wines I did not especially care for personally, and others have raved over them and grabbed them up. That turns out nice, too, since I get rid of the bottles I thought were just so-so to people who think they are marvelous. 

Beyond some obvious ones, wine "faults" have been proven in blind tastings to be highly subjective, mostly because they really are. But if I had a fault like it turning off as a nouveau wine, I would certainly be looking for advice on how to prevent that, partly because my second for making wine is that it is much cheaper than buying it - unless you are throwing it out, anyway. 

The third reason I make wine is to experiment, and I think a winemaker has to have that attitude first in order to be open to change and improvement.


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## JohnT (Jun 25, 2013)

jswordy said:


> Yes John, I agree on cellar palate. I kind of go the opposite direction on this. I make my wine the way I like it, which is one of 3 reasons I make wine. If others don't like it - oh well!
> 
> I have made wines I did not especially care for personally, and others have raved over them and grabbed them up. That turns out nice, too, since I get rid of the bottles I thought were just so-so to people who think they are marvelous.
> 
> ...


 

I hear ya Jim, and I agree that a matter of taste can play out here, provided that your taste is your goal.

I had in mind one case where this guy made wine that was brown and perhaps the worst case of oxidation I ever experienced. This was a major fault and I could not imagine anyone actually liking it. This fella really did not know what he was doing and I am sure that this was not the way he intended his wine to end up. It was not like the guy was sipping his wine and one day decided that it needed more oxidation. Rather than adjust his approach, he just learned to live with his results. Rather sad actually.


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## BernardSmith (Jun 25, 2013)

There is a great deal of truth in what everyone is saying here - not least about unsolicited advice but I really wonder if this is the whole story. I can imagine that we - all of us - do many things that we think are absolutely fine and we are comfortable with the results (from intimate relationships to painting walls to parenting to driving to baking bread to making wine). Someone, a stranger, may come along and seems to criticize my efforts and he or she may be happy and willing and even have the patience to explain how I can do things so much better. My efforts are me. There is no space for light between what I do and who I am. Criticizing my efforts is like criticizing me. 
And then there is something else. To do something differently means that I need first to question my own competence and if (a huge IF) I am willing to do that , then I need to transform the way I think about myself from being a competent adult in the world into a person whose competence is questioned, into a person who still has things to learn, and if I am willing to do that then I need to be willing to look for the time and the space to learn... but what I was doing was absolutely OK a few minutes ago.. I shall pat myself on the back and declare that my (brown and oxidized) wine is mine , it's fine and that's what home made wine looks like and how it tastes and those who don't like it can lump it!


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## jswordy (Jun 25, 2013)

"When the student is willing, the teacher will appear."


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## Runningwolf (Jun 25, 2013)

JohnT talking about oxidized wine, I took a class earlier this year and a winery from WV brought in about 4 four different wines. Everyone heavily oxidized. When asked about it the person said that's what the owner likes so that is what he expects all of his wines to taste like. It was a perfect time to just back off and say "oh.."


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## joeswine (Jun 25, 2013)

*A difference in taste*

LET me first start by saying everyone's taste buds are different, and each and everyone of us have the same techniques but vary iN different ways, and still yet follow a certain process, to the end result -WINE.

TAKE a look at me for example, bored with the status quo, I ventured out into ,WHEN GOOD WINES GONE BAD, only because I DID not always made a great bottle of wine ,sometimes not even close, then came the competitions, and FEED BACK, this stood me on end ,"what do they mean poor color,and taste is off, and I could go on. Through the fellow ship of our wine group over the years I came to understand what was meant,by,I make wine my WAY, or I like wine the way I make it,and for most of us that's a good enough answer.

Taking a step back and trying to figure out the differences between what is and what isn't, I found myself in volumes of wine texts and verbiage as to what actually is a style of wine .

PEOPLE REMEMBER I AM TALKING ABOUT ME AND KNOW ONE ELSE,OK..................

THE next step was to determine what a certain wine style supposed to taste like, so I started with Chardonnay,found the world class description, bought a decent bottle of it, waited to the fresh juice came in and tried to execute the flavor profile to the STANDARD.

AS I, adjusted with the chardonnay though trial and error some were OK,some were actually quite good and then I sent them to competition, and the comments came back better,maybe not great but I know that I was on the correct path in understand that a wines profile has a direct path to it's self and if I COULD MASTER those profiles then I was a better HOME WINE maker for it ..

I think outside the box all the time, always knowing what profile I'm working with, knowing that a pino nior can be fruit forward or semi-dry, what that taste profile is supposed to be(finished), for that is what it is, I look not to change the profile but to enhance it in some way ,but it still remains a PINO NIOR,.

KNOWING THE WINE INDUSTRY STANDARD ,for each wine style and or type is a key component in your tool box, I don't know of a person that I have had the privilege in tasting their wine on this forum that hasn't followed the standard weather they realized it or not, for those of you who have followed me on my threads and have sent me your wine, there isn't one that I comes to mind that hasn't tasted to the profile, well I'll get of my soap box now, this is a GREAT TOPIC AND SHOULD BE CONTINUED.


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## GaDawg (Jun 26, 2013)

Just to put my 2 cents in:
I believe a lot of people if not most don't want our opinion on wine or anything else, folks want us to agree with them.


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## JohnT (Jun 26, 2013)

Joe, 

Well said! I guess what I am saying here is this.. If you make wine to suit your tastes, and achieve your goal, all is fine. 

In the conversation I had over the weekend, the man was not happy with his wine and ended up dumping half of it when it "spoiled". This is not a man making wine to suit his tastes. This was a man that was failing at his attempts. It just took me aback a little when kind advice was given and he turned a blind ear to it. 

I know myself and how long I spent learning about winemaking. For me, this process continues. Whenever I had any wine go south on me, I made it a point in knowing why and how it should be prevented in the future. This man was not interested in that. He simply was willing to live with it. 

Again, I feel that this is due to tradition. This is not the first time I have seen tradition get in the way of good results, however an individual might view them. 

Joe, 

My thinking is very close to yours. I like knowing the standard, knowing what the potential of a grape might be. Take a pinot noir. The first thing I did (well before making my first pinot noir) was to simply sample a whole bunch of it (both american and french). I felt the need to learn as much as I could about a particular wine before I decided it was worth making. In this way, I could establish a bench mark, a goal, and something to shoot for. When I fall short of the benchmark, I made it a point to find out why.

I would have to say that this "benchmarking" process sould be adopted by each and every one of us. This is blind to individual tastes. You first decided exactly where you want your wine to go then do all you can to get there.


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## jamesngalveston (Jun 26, 2013)

It is the same with so many other things..I am a carpenter/wood worker.
There is a 100 ways to build a box...but there is only one box, and that is the one that shows no seams,no screws, no nails,etc. Pleasing to the eye and smooth to the touch.
I hate it when some one says, well I would have build it that way.
My response, then build it.


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 26, 2013)

I have to remind myself that the advice coming out of my mouth is advice that I know to be well intentioned and given with respect and the hope that the person would benefit from it. The message isn't always received that way, whether the person is looking for advice or not. Some hear that well intentioned advice as criticism and turn a deaf ear to it. Sometimes that's my fault, and sometimes it's theirs. This is true of wine making advice, or anything else. What makes wine making advice even more challenging is that the definition of what's good can be highly subjective.


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## Mikael (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes...I doth arrived to deliver my opinion on this topic. As Danny knows, I am a traditional wine maker. I use no additives, add no yeast, I do everything old school as I had been brought up (am Italian, lol). With that said, after the barrel process, unlike what the gentleman you were talking to said...leaving the wine in the barrel and only taking sone out to drink here and there iiiis a no no. I started my operation about 2 yeas ago but been working with wine since I was a wee lad. Thus far, everyone who has tried our wine (blend of allicante and Grenache) has loved it! It is very gratifying for us winemakers, be it those who use older methods and those who prefer a more modern scientific controlled environment, to be able to make such an amazing elixir whose soul purpose is to bring celebration and unity those gathered around to partake and drink together.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 26, 2013)

Here I thought that a hydrometer and a pH meter ARE old school! LOL. They way these big wineries are making wine anymore, there's a whole lot more going on with testing/filtering/etc. 

I would vary much agree on the cellar comments (one getting used to their own wine) and also about many not wanting to hear criticism. That's not me. I want to hear what others have to say, but only if they can identify their point with reasoning/taste. Everyone has different taste, so even the most award winning wine will could be "bad" to some people. We all have different tastes, no doubt.

I think wine is both a tradition/art and a science. Many are wrapped up in one or the other, but it takes both that make truly great wines. Having a clue about what methods, timing, etc will help/work is key. Having a good start with a knowledgeable pallet (tasting for faults, etc) is even more important than testing equipment. Your tongue can pick up things you may not be able to test with even the best equipment. 

IMHO, a winemaker with a good pallet and knowledge of what affects taste will trump a winemaker without a pallet with all the testing equipment money can buy. A bit of k-meta though, is extremely valuable in preventing oxidation/spoilage. A hydrometer and a good digital pH meter (MUST BE CALIBRATED!!) is a practically a necessity. Beyond those, the other tools/tests are just guides to help with making the wine the way you want it.

For those making JUST grape wines, you might be able to get away without any testing equipment, but you had better know your grapes (ripeness, tartness, sweetness) before you pick them. Yeast though, has been kept for starters dating back hundreds of years. That is a control that should be utilized if you want repeatable success. What happens if it doesn't start? IMHO, too risky to waste good juice with weak/bad yeast, bacteria or oxidation.


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## joeswine (Jun 26, 2013)

*The standard*




I stated that this was a good subject and it has proven such.


When we make wine we start off with the type of juice or kit, with the title let's say it is a sangiovese, like Johnt stated , knowing what you're working with and knowing what the finish the is key to wine making . mistake to send generate see for example; this is what I know it has a bright red cherry character , overlaying strawberry notes, with hints of violence and white pepper. it's medium body and long, wonderfully smooth tannic finish is likened by hazing of acidity and toasty oak . 

That's what I know about sangiovese , no matter what I read or where I read it the characterizations are not going to change much . after tasting it at a commercial standard I now know on my goal should be and as a good winemaker that's my objective , even if I fall short I have a reasonable idea of what this one should taste like when I'm finished , do you agree? even if I fall short, if I myself don't have a good control of taste , there are others around me whether it's my wife, my friends or my wine group, there is always somebody around to do a tasting with and then I asked them what do you taste ? what do you smell? how does a finish . this in the data I need, in my winemaking experience to stay the course or make corrections , so that when you receive or a judge receives a bottle of my sangiovese and they understand what this one should finish like then at least, I have a chance a it being accepted for what it, is and not for something I thought it.

I have entered enough contests, gotten enough feedback to understand that sometimes we all fall short. but if you can take the constructive criticism and turn it around and define what part of it is correct and what part of it may not be correct , because like most things in life everything is subjective to someone else's thoughts and/or taste and/or suppositions of which , , the only thing you have to remember is that what ever type or style of wine that I'm making it has a definite characteristic and that is global and that should be your benchmark. trial and error get you there , through the good feed and the metals and the ones you don't get any feedback from this is a learning experience every time you open the box, every time you pry open the lid, every time you take a sip, this is an ever evolving hobby from the day you start to the day you open the bottle its constantly changing .


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## FABulousWines (Jun 26, 2013)

Joe, very well stated. That is why my first high end kit has been a Malbec. I have had many commercial Malbecs and have a reasonably good baseline to shoot for. Time will tell how close I come to the mark. If it all works out I would like to send you a bottle when it has come into its age and get your feedback!


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## BernardSmith (Jun 26, 2013)

But Joe, The problem is not with the folk who agree with you that there are specific characteristics for every wine that anyone makes anywhere and anyhow and that everyone is in fact trying to produce or reproduce those characteristics. Many folk may have no interest in that idea anymore than they have an interest in mastering any activity. All they may be interested in is in fermenting fruit to get a buzz from the alcohol or maintaining a "tradition" that they inherited from their family or in being able to tell their friends that they make alcohol. It's not that you are right and they are wrong or they are right and you are wrong it's just that they may be looking for something you are not and you are looking for something they are not.


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## vernsgal (Jun 26, 2013)

I find myself just biting my tongue and not making comment with those that have their ways and can't/ or won't, excuse the theft of a line "see outside the box". Some are too head strong on tradition to see that we have progressed to what can be better.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 27, 2013)

Joe, very true on the notes for grapes, BUT you can almost artificially induce some flavors with certain yeasts on certain varieties. We've been toying around with different yeasts on different fruits beyond the standard "sets" so to speak. You can get interesting results from trying certain yeasts on certain fruits. Seeing how we do all fruit wine now and have not/ are not currently experimenting on grape wines, I can't comment exactly on how a particular yeasts affects certain grapes. I can say that we have a blueberry wine that is very close to a table red wine with fruity notes. I even bet some would call it a red wine without knowing what it was. What I will say, is knowledge about a fruits particular notes (smells, flavors, etc) is a good way to make good wine. If you are good, you can even exaggerate those elements.


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## JohnT (Jun 27, 2013)

Folk, 

Just a moment to say that I really like how this thread is going. I am so glad that we are taking efforts to not offend anyone. It is great that each one of us has this as a goal. 

Joe, I could not have said it any better myself! I guess that the message we are sending is that having a goal in winemaking is a preferrred and recomended goal.... 

To sum up so far....

1) It truely does not matter what your personal tastes are. 

2) The best way to find out what wine suit you is to first taste a wide variety of wines to find the type/style of wines that best suit your tastes. 

3) Once you have a handle on the type/style of wine you prefer, make that particular wine a benchmark. 

4) A benchmark is a standard or a direction. Even though you have a benchmark, this does not mean that you can't adjust, change, or embellish to further suit your tastes.


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## robie (Jun 27, 2013)

Maybe add -
Once you believe you know what you are doing, remain teachable.


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## winointraining (Jun 27, 2013)

You have to remain teachable. When I was an apprentice I used to hear oldtimers say "I been doin it this way for 40 *&^king years there ain't no better way to do it." and I used to think to my self "That don't make you smarter, that just makes you older" you have to use your head, ya gotta keep an open mind!


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## vernsgal (Jun 27, 2013)

and never be afraid to try something different


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## joeswine (Jun 27, 2013)

*old timers*

AND AT TIMES THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX


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## JohnT (Jun 28, 2013)

REAMAIN TEACHABLE!!! How could I have fogot that point? 
Thanks Robie!


A great example is this.. I remember reading (I do a lot of that) that one of the main reasons that California Wine rivals the French is BECAUSE of prohabition. 

Whenever the topic of these dark days comes up, I am very quick to complain about its negative impact on the american wine industry, but there were some positives. 

Most notable of all was that when prohabition ended, not many knew just how to go about making wine. Due to inexperience, American winemakers became very interested in the science of making wine while bringing themselves "back up to speed" on the winemaking process. 

A prime example of just how this benefited the global wine industry was the discovery of MLB and its benefits. This discovery was made by enologists right here in the good old USA. 

There are everal other examples. The main point here is that the French tended toward that "unteachable" world and it took "teachable" Americans to make the dicovery.

One other point I would like to make here is that we should live by the following creedo... 

There is no such thing as a perfect glass of wine. Persuit of the perfect glass is a life-long journey that will never end!


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## FABulousWines (Jun 28, 2013)

I am really enjoying this thread.

I agree with you John so long as the pursuit of perfection does not stop you from enjoying the good enough!


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## jswordy (Jun 28, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Folk,
> 
> Just a moment to say that I really like how this thread is going. I am so glad that we are taking efforts to not offend anyone. It is great that each one of us has this as a goal.
> 
> ...



I mean no offense to anyone but in my wine world, here's how the points go:

1.) What I like is paramount. I am going to make wine that I personally like the taste of, in such a fashion that I arrive at that taste.

2.) Experimentation is king. I am open to new ideas but I make no wine to somebody else's standard. For me it is not about what others think of my wine. I'm making this stuff for me. I appreciate honest input on wine: If they like a vintage, great, they will get as many bottles of what they like as they desire and I can spare, and I hope they enjoy it. If they don't like it, great, I will not burden them with bottles of the stuff they don't like. It can be looked at another way: If I slavishly make wine to someone else's standard, where is the room for innovation? I understand fear of failure, but overcoming that fear and acknowledging failure will happen is part of growth and innovation.

3.) Like a lot of styles and make a lot of styles, but don't get hung up on styles of wine. Some will turn out better than others. You will learn a lot.

4.) I don't use the term "benchmark," because it implies to me making wine to someone else's standards, not mine. I set goals. Robert Mondavi did not become successful by making Krug his benchmark wine and making his wines to that benchmark. He became a success by innovating.

I have two more:

5.) Wine folks who eloquently tell you they make wine for a bunch of reasons other than to get a buzz on are not being completely truthful, since it is impossible to actually drink wine and not get a degree of buzz based on consumption. So if buzz is a factor - and it is - why not make some vintages with the principle goal of attaining it in a nice way? There is nothing wrong with liking the feeling, or making wine geared to achieving it. That is simply a goal as are all others, and - judgmentalism aside - is equally legitimate.

6.) Just as you can make wines that are meant to be paired with foods, you can make wines designed to be consumed as stand-alones. Because a wine is made to be a stand-alone beverage does not mean it is inherently inferior.

All of this is based on a life philosophy I adopted after reading a Teddy Roosevelt speech in which he said,

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." 

You don't get there by worrying too much over how you stack up against someone else's benchmark.

Again, I mean no offense to anyone, I just have a contrary opinion.


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## FABulousWines (Jun 28, 2013)

Jim! For a wonderful WINO you sure do come across very lucid at times!

I don't necessarily think you have a contrary view. I think we all just define success in different ways. For example, consider my earlier post about Malbec. I love Malbec! It is undoubtedly my favorite wine. So in my early attempts to make a Malbec I will first try to emulate that which I have come to know and love. If I can come close to that benchmark I will be very happy. However, I do believe with my natural tendency to tinker, I will find ways to improve over that in time. It may very well stray from what commercial wines taste like, but it is my goal to make good wine better, so I will go for it. It all depends on how you define success, see what I mean. For some, success might be pleasing others over themselves. Nothing in the world wrong with that either. What I think most important is that you define your goal; what defines a perfect wine in your own terms. Those terms may vary greatly from one to the next; but hey, this is home wine making. The only standard that matters is the one you have defined. I really think we are all just saying the same thing, but from different perspectives!

Having said all that I would remind that the person John encountered was apparently unhappy with his wine but seemed reluctant to change. That's just weird for me. If I am not meeting my idea of what's right I am apt to change.

Copied off that Roosevelt quote. It is going on my wall!


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## jswordy (Jun 28, 2013)

Yeah FAB, I'm not saying one way is better than the other, because like I really don't care what people think of my wines, I really don't care what they do or how they find their motivation to get out of bed everyday (as long as it does not involve harming others). 

I have made good wines, I have made bad wines, and I have made wines that some people raved about and others thought were awful. I have made wines I myself did not like that everyone else thought were works of art! So I was not being judgmental at all, just sharing my own opinions. 

In fact it's the judgment in wine circles I run fastest away from. It's all good.

TR quote: http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html

If you ever get the chance to read the entire speech, it is good and mostly still relevant even today, all these years later. It was made 9 years before his death in Paris.

The quote is on my wall at work. I have had it posted at my workplaces for years.


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## robie (Jun 28, 2013)

I do hear you, Jim. That's why I seldom ever give my wine away. I hardly ever even let others try my wines, except at wine club meetings, where folks don't automatically tend to turn up their noses at home made wines. I am thinking others besides them could possibly enjoy my wines, but I just don't go there.

That said, sort of by accident I recently slipped one of my bottles in at a party where there were several opened bottles at any given time and people were randomly trying wines. One guy and his wife had pretty much taken over my bottle, saying how nice it was. They got really quiet when someone told them it was homemade. I never even commented.


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## joeswine (Jun 29, 2013)

*Lets continue*

Okay, fabulous wines, you're making a Washington Merlot and Argentina Melbec as well as a tropical Riesling and the white Merlot is that correct ?I think my point was that a Merlot whether white or red has a definite taste standard/ Riesling has a definite taste standard, not that you can't go to the left of the center of the right of the standard, the winemaker should understand the basic taste profiles of the wines he or she is making. Nothing more, nothing less, if we didn't have standard or definitions of what each wine or grape style is supposed to finish like and/or taste like then we just been squashing grapes, fermenting juice and that's the end of it .but there are taste standards that's all ,I'm definitely not God's gift to this industry, but if this industry didn't have definitions of taste it would not be in industry as we see it today as it has grown and has redefined itself since the Roman times, that's not to say if you choose to make wine in your own fashion it wrong, there are no wrong way as some people's point out and believe me if can make wine like Francis Ford Coppola's, specially their Chardonnay- I would be doing quite well, but as Chardonnays go I don't do bad. So you see to me that's my target, because I understand. The standard I've come very close and can still call it my wine.Fabulous wines, I just use your wine styles as a point of reference, not directed at you, okay.


Good subject


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## Downwards (Jun 29, 2013)

I also dislike when someone tastes my wine and just says "I like it!" But sometimes they don't have the language to describe what they liked, that's not SO bad. I really hate when someone tastes it and simply says, "I hate it" without any useful criticism. Or worse has a reason they won't like it BEFORE they taste. Usually that's some imagined idea that fruit wines are like Boones Farm or low class. 
I love criticism. I work hard at making something to eat or to drink whenever I do it. I can't tell you how many times I've served a brisket or a glass of something and when I taste it I critique myself. Folks around me are always like, "you're being too hard on yourself, it is really good!!" Well, I never said I didn't like it, I usually do! I'm just describing what I want to do better. Don't we always want to do better? I'm new at this, so I'm still finding it easy to get better, lol. Hope I can always find the patience to find a new way to improve.

Of course this does not mean that I'm necessarily bound to agree with every bit of criticism, no matter how sincere it is. I still welcome it, because it's coming from someone who also clearly cares about wine even if it isn't mine. At the very least we're spending time talking meaningfully about our beverages, haha. And drinking them very likely.


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## joeswine (Jun 30, 2013)

*people and responses*

MAYBE it's because I have been around wine people all my life, yet have been a active wine maker and experimenter for 12 yours now ,that information in my circle especially our wine club is very fluid. We would have competition amongst are selves ,blind tastings and that proved interesting ,we also did meetings were we had wine descriptions and bottles of wine our own and commercial and in the blind try and match the descriptions wine the wine in the bottle, interesting to say the least in results. Most could not identified they own but everyone could target on which one was commercial.
EXAMPLE ,I WON a contest with my amarone and I was to say the last excited so I took a bottle to gino pinto's who oppion I respect a lot, remember I just won professional judges choice ,from extremely important event in Philadelphia, I dropped off the bottle and a week past so I wrote a email and asked if he had tried it? To my shock he stated that the label was excellent the color right on but (what was that god awful taste ?was that the raisins you put in?)well you could have floor me, I replied back to him ,yes, he asked why and I gave him my reasoning, then he rote back to me GIVE IT MORE TIME IN THE BOTTLE OR THE OAK BALANCE WILL NOT WORK.AND I DID ,input no matter were it comes from is important, even if I didn't think that he was correct I still took the time to research amarone, AGAIN and let time do it's thing, but hay I won the contest how much better could It get, IT got very much better, now one batch bottled in 2007 ,is ready for tasting .....


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## dlriggins (Jun 30, 2013)

I am new to making home wine. So far so good as I have liked all that I have made as well as everyone else that has tried it. I will admit that I am inexperienced and am looking to get the opinions of others but I am pleased with my efforts. After reading this thread I have to say that everyone has a difference of taste and opinion input to me + or- is appreciated. As far as tradition if it were up to tradition we would all be riding horses to work and all carry cash to pay for everything and the online store at the top of your screen would not exist, as it is we can all appreciate different wines made from different fruit other than grapes even mix and match. I like to think of this as one part nature program, one part Mr. Wizard, and one part cooking show ending up at a tasty alcohol induced buzz.


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## BernardSmith (Jul 1, 2013)

@DlRiggins: I think there is an enormous difference between deliberately and consciously making a wine that is meant to possess particular characteristics where the wine maker (Joeswine, for example) has some real understanding of and some very effective control over the processes that produce those characteristics and the people who makes wine but has no understanding of the processes involved and more to the point, absolutely no ability to control any of those processes even if they wished to do so. It's one thing to deliberately allow or even encourage your wine to oxidize knowing why you are doing this, even if no-one other than you finds that wine drinkable and quite another to produce a wine that is oxidized but you have no inkling that that is what you have done (the story behind the first post on this thread). I guess my point is that taste is ALWAYS subjective, but achieving specific tastes is not.


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## JohnT (Jul 1, 2013)

Bernard, 

I have tried to keep individual tastes out of this thread, knowing that they are different. My point here is that having a plan or a goal in winemaking is the best tool for success (success being that you achieve the taste you prefer) and having a benchmark the fits your tastes is a great way to go. 

I agree with you, that this person (from the original post) simply did not get it. He was letting tradition get in the way of success (remember, he was tossing out 1/2 of his wine). 

I guess for some winemakers, tradition is more improtant than results.


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## TheWineGuy (Jul 10, 2013)

Some people are just set in their ways and will never want to explore out of their bubble


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