# few questions about stuck fermentation



## Zule (Jun 21, 2014)

*edit: My lastest update:* http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum...uck-fermentation-45566/index4.html#post520631

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It seems several of my wines do not ferment fully when I add sugar. Ive had this happen to some grape concentrate wines and a few other ocean spray wines. This was all before I was using a hydrometer so I got no exact numbers.

Few weeks ago I read post on this forum saying fermenting water works ok (either after carbon filter (which I got many not being used) and/or coolaid mix once its done). I figured id give it a try with tap water and sugar with a SG of 1.1 a try with my Red Star Premier Cuvee. If it all went horrible wrong id be out under $5.


*May 11th*: 1.100 reading on SG. Also added about 3/4th of tsp of meta-k. Sealed with with plastic bag and elastic.
*May 12th*: Put in 1 tsb of yeast nutrients . Put in one pack of premier curver yeast. Added coffee fitler on top with elastic and just a loss bag on top (to give it oxygen).
*May 13th*: Bubbles going good, added airlock.
*May 14th:* SG: 1.096 but very bubbly due to yeast, may not be accurate
*May 18th:* SG: 1.090. Was bubbly for last 4 days. After taking SG I stirred it.
*May 21th:* SG: 1.089 in 3 gallon carboy.


Why do you think its slowed down and almost stopped? This always seems to happen when I use lots of sugar, it goes fine for about a week then slows down big time. The sugar water looks fine and smells fine. 

I do not care much about the sugar water wine batch, but tonight I also started two new apple wine batches and I do not want it to happen to them. Both these batches are sort of a test, as the highest ive ever gone with apple wine before was about 10% (before hydro reading so its just an estimate)

My two new apple juice batches: 
Batch 1# SG 1.088 (12% potential) about 3.5 gallons in 5 gallon carboy.
Batch 2# SG 1.110 (15% potential) about 4.9 gallons in 5 gallon carboy.

Both added meta-k, both Allens juice, and both currently sitting in carboy until tomorrow (waiting 24 hours) to add yeast. I think I will use 7112 yeast on both(instead of the Red Star Premier Cuvee) and about 2 tsb of yeast nutrients on both .

What can I do to help these batches not get stuck? I was thinking of maybe using both 7112 yeast, and adding two packets to the SG 1.11 batch (ive never added two yeast packets before)?


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## sour_grapes (Jun 21, 2014)

My understanding is that fermenting plain sugar water is difficult to get right. Basically, the nutrients and _p_H are all wrong for the yeasts you use. You said you added "1 tsb" (tablespoon? teaspoon?) of nutrients. However, we don't even know the volume of the liquid you were trying to ferment. Is it 3 gallon, as I think I infer from the last step. I have no idea if that amount of nutrient is sufficient for 3 gallons of plain water, but I kind of doubt it.


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## Zule (Jun 22, 2014)

Its a 3 gallon carboy with 1 tsp of super nutrients (direction say 1/2 tsp. per gallon, I was going to add the last 1/3rd a little later). But doesnt wine start smelling a little weird when it does not have the nutrients due to it being stressed?

Should I add the last 1/2 tsp now?

I am also looking at getting the HM Digital PH-80 ph HydroTester. Good choice?


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## sour_grapes (Jun 22, 2014)

What directions?

Yes, my understanding is that yeast will generally exude bad odors (H2S) before dying, but I think this is not guaranteed.

Sure, I would add more nutrients now. What have you got to lose?


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## Zule (Jun 22, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> What directions?



I purchased it from a wine shop. thats the direction on the bottle (printed label on a bottle). When I ask them what it was made from I think they told me aminoate sulphates




sour_grapes said:


> Sure, I would add more nutrients now. What have you got to lose?




ok just added 3/4 of a tsp. It did its usual mad mass gas release and my airlock had 2 bubbles per second for a minute. I will see how things look tomorrow.

As for my apple juice wines. Adding two packets of yeast to the 3 gallon wont hurt anything right?


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## Zule (Jun 22, 2014)

dupe... ignore.


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## Turock (Jun 22, 2014)

Poor nutrient management is usually the culprit for a ferment not finishing. There is no need to add 2 packets of yeast. When you use nutrient, you have to step-feed it thru the ferment so that the yeast continues to have the nitrogen it needs for reproduction. Calculate the total nutrient dose depending on how many gallons you're making then divide it in half. Pitch the first half when the yeast becomes active, and the second half when you get to 50% sugar depletion. If you always step-feed nutrient, your ferments will always complete.


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## Zule (Jun 22, 2014)

Well this morning it looks like its back to its slowed down state (barely any bubbles)



Turock said:


> Poor nutrient management is usually the culprit for a ferment not finishing. There is no need to add 2 packets of yeast. When you use nutrient, you have to step-feed it thru the ferment so that the yeast continues to have the nitrogen it needs for reproduction. Calculate the total nutrient dose depending on how many gallons you're making then divide it in half. Pitch the first half when the yeast becomes active, and the second half when you get to 50% sugar depletion. If you always step-feed nutrient, your ferments will always complete.



That was my plan, I added slightly more then the instructions (as there was a lot of sugar) and I was going to add more once it it the 50% mark, but it never even got close to the 50% mark.


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## beggarsu (Jun 22, 2014)

Got this problem with a Kilju (sugar wine for diluting mix with a problem wine wine) and a DB. 
Didn't notice last week the weather turned chill especially at night and they were in the back hall. Didn't even realize it til I took the SG of Kilju for first time at day 6 and *what!!!*. I usually don't bother taking SG every day

Kilju (sugar wine) got the worst of it in the worst place - almost stalled completely -nursing them both back to health with temperature over 70 (to 80) + stepped yeast nutrient.

Dragons Blood (with wild blueberry packs) looks healthy - at 1.007 and vigorous activity - wouldn't know there was a problem except this is day 7 when it is usually dry.

Kilju is sluggish but there is still activity with added nutrient and warmth. SG at 1.027 Ran out of EC-1118 can't get any til store opens on Monday . may or may not need it - might add slurry from the finished DB. Added 40 ml of the DB to it this afternoon. This is day 11 so it seriously stalled but is not lost.
And now I know - once it is stalled it is hard to get back on track -problem also was I had no time to get up to the store and get more EC-1118 these last few days- that's another lesson - to have it on hand.

Almost everything I ferment is finished at day 6 as I usually do it in very warm temps. This was a mistake.

---
My leftover Kilju - maybe have a couple gallons (after I do a mix with my problem wine) I will probably mix with various extracts and/or kool-aid just for fun. eg mix in 2 litre pop bottle with one packet of kool-aid - try various flavors - or looking at other flavour food extracts at the supermarkets - they have to be pure flavour - no sediment to fall out..


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## Zule (Jun 22, 2014)

ok I attached my wine heating belt to my Batch 2# SG 1.110 (apple juicer) in the hopes I can keep it there for a few weeks so it will help in fermentation while not burning my house down.

Tomorrow I will also go to another wine store and buy another yeast nutrient (this one has the manufacturer package) in the hopes it will have something that my current one is missing.

edit: I also took SG of the water wine earlier today and the SG has not changed from last night. if it completely stalls out I might let the yeast settle to the bottom, rack it without any old leese and put in a new 7112 to see what happens.


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## beggarsu (Jun 23, 2014)

Zule said:


> ok I attached my wine heating belt to my Batch 2# SG 1.110 (apple juicer) in the hopes I can keep it there for a few weeks so it will help in fermentation while not burning my house down.
> 
> Tomorrow I will also go to another wine store and buy another yeast nutrient (this one has the manufacturer package) in the hopes it will have something that my current one is missing.
> 
> edit: I also took SG of the water wine earlier today and the SG has not changed from last night. if it completely stalls out I might let the yeast settle to the bottom, rack it without any old leese and put in a new 7112 to see what happens.



So you think the old died/stressed yeast might be toxic to new yeast? 

hmm interesting... I don't know - 

Maybe yeast energizer can overcome that. I threw in ( Kilju - my 3 gallon + approx batch) some yeast energizer 1/2 tsp _(it's all I had)_ and nutrient 1 tsp today , stirred well , and warm here today so I put it in a room that catches heat and gets hot. It's sparkling very well now, I think i beat it.

If not tomorrow , i get to the store and get some EC-1118 (and also restock my energizer) and do a yeast starter and pitch it.


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## Turock (Jun 23, 2014)

Yes--yeast energizer is very good for restarting stuck ferments, or a complete nutrient such as is Fermaid K. Be sure to follow a good restart protocol.


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## Zule (Jun 30, 2014)

Update: The new YN I purchased is DAP, its this white crystal powder (as opposed to brown mystery powder of YN 1#). I was optimistic it would solve all my problems, but looks like batch 2# is slowing down.

Batch 2 (~14 liters) seems to have slowed down a lot, gave it a taste and its completely undrinkable due to sugar (hoping the pinch or YN and energizer will help it), its been under heat the entire time:

*May 22nd*: SG 1.11, 100% vit c apple juice
*May 24th*: Added airlock. Added 1 tsb YN #2 and 1/4 tsb of YN 1#
*May 25th*: SG 1.06. Still about a bubble per second. Added 1 tsb of YN 2#
*May 26th: *SG 1.034. Added a little under pinch of YN 1# and 2# and stirred top 2" or so.
*May 28th: *SG 1.018. Bubbles appart 6-7 seconds or so.
*May 30th: *SG 1.012. little foam at top, see no bubbles in airlock or wine. Added 1 pinch of Yn 1#, 2# and yeast energizer.

Its like there was wild fermentation going on the first 4 days then it slowed down (0.076 in 4 days). Perhaps I should of put in more DAP in the early stages? Its been under heat the entire time.


Batch 1# (23 liters) seems it be going ok and on track (added YN again at 1.043 the right time correct?).

*May 22nd*: SG 1.088, used mostly 60% vit c apple juice on bottles with concetrate. Used meta-k. Put heater on it. And coffee filter on top. Note: Not much activity.
*May 24th*: Added carboy. Added 2 tsb YN #2 and 1/2 tsb of YN 1#
*May 25th:* SG 1.082. Bubbles over last night and had to do 2 changes today. 
*May 26th:* SG 1.072. 
*May 28th:* SG 1.060.
*May 30th:* SG 1.043. Added 2 tsb YN #2 and 1/2 tsb of YN 1#


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## Turock (Jul 1, 2014)

You may need to make a yeast starter and add the wine in several doses to the yeast starter until you get it all in there. It's very problematic not to have a good nutrient management program or this is what happens. DAP is fine--but at this time you might need Fermaid K and Go Ferm if the sugar levels are still high. Spoilage organisms can compete for the nutrient and they release metabolites that inhibit yeast growth. You might need to add lysozyme before restarting the ferment in order to clean it up for the new culture. Adding yeast hulls before restarting can also reduce the accumulated toxins.


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## Zule (Jul 2, 2014)

Unfortunately I do not have neither of those available on my town.

How about this to restart:

Start a little over a gallon in a 6 gallon carboy. Once yeast get going good:
- add ~0.75 gallons of stuck, wait a few days
- add ~1.25 gallons of stuck, wait a few days
- add the last ~1.5 gallon of stuck

If this was for caused due to 'Spoilage organisms' how did they get in there? The air? Or perhaps I should of boiled my sugar first?


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## Stressbaby (Jul 3, 2014)

Zule,
1. Why do you have an airlock on it?
2. What are the temperatures of the must?

Generally the recommendation here is to not add nutrients once past 1/2 or 2/3 fermentation so that there is no leftover available nutrient for spoilage organisms.

From what I see here, batch #2 is fine, I wouldn't do anything other than move from primary to secondary (put it under airlock).
Batch #1 is slow but I wouldn't do anything other than watch the temp and stir twice a day.

2 cents from a relative newbie...


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## Turock (Jul 3, 2014)

Not knowing exactly what kind of techniques you used, how much sulfite used before fermentation,etc. makes it tough to know how the ferment ran off the rails. But stuck ferments are almost always due to lack of nutrient management. You MUST provide a high sugar must with correct amounts of nutrient at the times the yeast needs it.

Fermaid K, Go Ferm, etc. is widely available--Morewine carries it as do many other suppliers. Yeast hulls too. Yes, adding the stuck wine a little at a time as you describe is the correct method. Don't forget the nutrient too. But if it dies out on you again, you'll know that the ferment is now kind of dirty with toxins and your only chance is the protocol I stated above.


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## BernardSmith (Jul 3, 2014)

Zule said:


> ok just added 3/4 of a tsp. It did its usual mad mass gas release and my airlock had 2 bubbles per second for a minute. I will see how things look tomorrow.




That "mad gas release" when you added powder to your carboy strongly suggests that there is a great deal of CO2 in the must and that suggests that your fermentation may be ongoing. What is the temperature of the liquid? What is the temperature of the room in which you are fermenting? I wonder if the problem is with your hydrometer reading - if the temperature is too high then the reading will be inaccurate and if the hydrometer was poorly made (the scale is usually paper attached to the inside of a tube - so its position may be out of spec) then all readings will be off. Have you taken a reading using pure water to "calibrate" your hydrometer?


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## Zule (Jul 3, 2014)

Stressbaby said:


> Zule,
> 1. Why do you have an airlock on it?
> 2. What are the temperatures of the must?



I use juice, so I do not have any must. I always put in airlock on 1-3 days after I put in the yeast (once activity starts) Not sure what the temps are, roiom is about 21c, while the one with the carboy heater was probably about 28c or so.



Turock said:


> Not knowing exactly what kind of techniques you used, how much sulfite used before fermentation,etc. makes it tough to know how the ferment ran off the rails. But stuck ferments are almost always due to lack of nutrient management. You MUST provide a high sugar must with correct amounts of nutrient at the times the yeast needs it.
> 
> Fermaid K, Go Ferm, etc. is widely available--Morewine carries it as do many other suppliers. Yeast hulls too. Yes, adding the stuck wine a little at a time as you describe is the correct method. Don't forget the nutrient too. But if it dies out on you again, you'll know that the ferment is now kind of dirty with toxins and your only chance is the protocol I stated above.



So for high sugar content is DAP alone good enough or do I always need extra neutrients like yeast hauls or ferma k in these high sugar cases?



BernardSmith said:


> That "mad gas release" when you added powder to your carboy strongly suggests that there is a great deal of CO2 in the must and that suggests that your fermentation may be ongoing. What is the temperature of the liquid? What is the temperature of the room in which you are fermenting? I wonder if the problem is with your hydrometer reading - if the temperature is too high then the reading will be inaccurate and if the hydrometer was poorly made (the scale is usually paper attached to the inside of a tube - so its position may be out of spec) then all readings will be off. Have you taken a reading using pure water to "calibrate" your hydrometer?



The mad gas release post was made a week ago when everything was going fine. No real temp readings. Hydrometer is new, the paper inside seems to sit on this 'bulge' and I did test it with water.


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## beggarsu (Jul 3, 2014)

The juice is the "must' - must is what is to be fermented.
..
Your general problem may be the lack of oxygen. Yeast needs air to ferment and space to release the CO2 - airlocks will stress/suffocate them. Most everyone uses just a loose towel or loose lid over the top - mostly to keep out insects.I might do airlock only if the rate was soooo slow I was afraid of oxygenation. So need to keep warm, lots of headspace and use nutrient and maybe of a cup of raisins help the yeast. 

Airlock only becomes necessary when the main ferment is done. 

Almost all my batches ferment dry to around .990 within 6-7 days. Only a few times I had a problem when the temperature dropped waaaay down at night unbeknownst to me until a few days later - crazy June weather - it took some doing but I ferment to dry those guys as well. 

I finally put the Kilju in a carboy when it was around .999 giving up actually - (it had stalled because of temperature drop) but surprise - in the last few days I got it to over 75-80 temp in carboy with airlock it was still gas rising constantly became finally it went bone dry right to .990 or lower (don't trust instrument beyond that) - still it took two weeks to finish that one and I constantly added nutrient (but not when I put it in carboy).


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## Turock (Jul 4, 2014)

DAP is a fine nutrient for most ferments. But you need to step-feed it instead of tossing the whole dose in at the beginning--step-feeding should be done with ALL nutrients, not just DAP.

I think you need to aerate the must--fermenting under airlock is usually done for delicate wines where your goal is to retain volatiles. A bucket with a pressure valve in it seems to work better than an airlock.


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## GeoS (Jul 4, 2014)

Fermentation is not a linear process. It starts out strong then tapers off. What you are describing sounds normal. I noticed you had about 6 day intervals which sounds about right. You may not see a change in SG at this point over a day. Check it after 4 or 5 days and if there is no change wait another day or two and check it again. Still no change add some nutrient, amount recommended by manufacturer, and stir the must daily. Do not use an airlock and just lightly set the lid on the bucket.

If you do see any change in SG you still have fermentation so leave it alone. It wouldn't hurt to remove the airlock and lightly set the lid on the bucket. Fermentation needs oxygen. I know it sounds counter to what were told about wine oxidizing however, during ferment, you need a small amount of oxygen, after ferment you want to avoid it. To get the oxygen in the wine just stir it a little.

I do not use an airlock until I get down to 1.020 to 1.010 and rack into a carboy which may take a few weeks. 

Also remember the alcohol can kill the yeast so start around 1.080 SG. An alcohol level above 13.5% is bad for the yeast and your wine will taste more like brandy.

(Starting SG - Ending SG)/ Ending SG * 132.9 = %ABV


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## GeoS (Jul 4, 2014)

A quick calc tells me batch 1 is about 13% ABV. This may be as high as it gets. The alcohol may be what's stopping fermentation. This is ok, you can still finish off the wine it will just be a sweeter wine. A typical wine is around 11% ABV. Your batch 2 looks like its coming along nicely.


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## GeoS (Jul 4, 2014)

Sorry, my bad. Batch 1 is coming along and batch 2 has a high alcohol.


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## beggarsu (Jul 4, 2014)

EC-1118 has an alcohol tolerance of 18 percent - I've frequently fermented wines usually 12 to 16 percent - no problem whatsoever.

My current Blackberry Blast ABV now 13% + fermented to .992 in 6.5 days - goes into airlock carboy tonight. - the current hot season helps


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## GeoS (Jul 5, 2014)

EC 1118 is great for skeeter pee and other non traditional wines because of its high tolerance. I try to stay away from it with traditional wines because it is harsh. You can get a better flavor from less harsh yeasts.


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## beggarsu (Jul 6, 2014)

GeoS said:


> EC 1118 is great for skeeter pee and other non traditional wines because of its high tolerance. I try to stay away from it with traditional wines because it is harsh. You can get a better flavor from less harsh yeasts.



The other ones from the same company also have high ABV tolerances.


http://www.lalvinyeast.com/strains.asp

I could probably taste for 30 years and never pay much attention to the difference nor care about it if I did notice it. 
Maybe you taste a minute difference and intellectually decide it's "better" or "harsh" - this kind of tasting is an individual and subjectively developed thing. 
To me delicious is delicious - taste is a subjective judgement not objective.

.
I've had many wines above 13.5 % - they taste like whatever they are made from - but not like brandy.


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## GeoS (Jul 6, 2014)

There is a reason traditional wine is only 11% ABV. If you like the high alcohol that's great. For me, I can taste the different flavors developed by varying yeast and alcohol content. Its like the difference between Budweiser and Rochefort. Its the difference between Basil Hayden's and Jack Daniels. Higher ABV does not necessarily make better wine.


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## beggarsu (Jul 6, 2014)

GeoS said:


> There is a reason traditional wine is only 11% ABV. If you like the high alcohol that's great. For me, I can taste the different flavors developed by varying yeast and alcohol content. Its like the difference between Budweiser and Rochefort. Its the difference between Basil Hayden's and Jack Daniels. Higher ABV does not necessarily make better wine.



Taste is extremely subjective. A lot of people here like higher alcohol content in wines. 
First is detecting minute differences , second is the degree of conscious attention to those tastes, third is how you react to tastes - your attitude. 
Like if someone has an attitude to hunt for certain tastes and has a certain intellectual opinion already fixed for some social reason of trying to be better than others then detection of those tastes evokes some emotional reaction. 
..

And a lot has to do with psychology - I know there a people who grow up liking and disliking certain food's, myself I grew up poor and I just learned to like everything from being hungry. 

I think if some people ate like they drank wine they would starve to death.

It's all subjective there is no right or wrong except it is wrong to try to impose your taste preferences on others. Higher ABV for me makes better wine (typically my wines are 12-13 % after backsweetening) and yeast differences to me are insignificant.

..
Of all those alcohol brands you mentioned I have never tried any of them. 

I only drink beer in hot countries like when I go to China on business -- there I drink "Beijing Beer" brand which only cost 20 cents a bottle or so whereas all the American imports and the famous Qingdao which is exported all of which cost 20 to 30 times as much as local beer - and are all touted with some snobbery - I don't like them because I am used to the Beijing brand, - it's all subjective..


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## GeoS (Jul 6, 2014)

I got hooked on the Belgium beers especially the Trappist beers while I was living in France. They were only 1.88 euros there. They are about $5 a bottle here so I don't get them often. I look at wine and its flavored as a science. To achieve optimal flavors you need to balance the alcohol, acid, etc... Some people like MD20/20 as well. My opinion is if I want to just get drunk I'll get some Old Crow. If I want to get some complex flavors I'll go with a nice wine. Its all about learning how to achieve the desired flavors.


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## beggarsu (Jul 7, 2014)

GeoS said:


> I got hooked on the Belgium beers especially the Trappist beers while I was living in France. They were only 1.88 euros there. They are about $5 a bottle here so I don't get them often. I look at wine and its flavored as a science. To achieve optimal flavors you need to balance the alcohol, acid, etc... Some people like MD20/20 as well. My opinion is if I want to just get drunk I'll get some Old Crow. If I want to get some complex flavors I'll go with a nice wine. Its all about learning how to achieve the desired flavors.



No you don't need to balance etc etc because flavour is a subjective thing not an objective science. You decide what are your "desired flavors" based on your personality, your life experiences etc. 

Some people look at wine like they are trying to find Al Qaeda terrorist cells they are not satisfied until they have purged the enemy! It looks like some kind of neurosis to me.

And no the people who don't follow your "rules" are neither stupid nor insensitive to taste nor do they just want to get drunk. They simply don't care about your _'balance'_ and your taste buds - they have their own.
..
The attempt to impose one's standards of taste on others is a form of snobbery, social fascism and one-upmanship. I find it abhorrent.


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## GeoS (Jul 7, 2014)

Really!!!!! Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm sorry you don't like traditional wine and the science behind it. A lot of people do. It's unfortunate that you feel I my advice is incorrect because you like wine with high alcohol content. Your right, it's about what you like. I guess everyone should like their wine the way you like it. So I should NOT be giving them advice about traditional wines?

So, quit being argumentative and let's try to help people. Geesh, people like you are the reason I left the last forum!


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## beggarsu (Jul 7, 2014)

GeoS said:


> Really!!!!! Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm sorry you don't like traditional wine and the science behind it. A lot of people do. It's unfortunate that you feel I my advice is incorrect because you like wine with high alcohol content. Your right, it's about what you like. I guess everyone should like their wine the way you like it. So I should NOT be giving them advice about traditional wines?
> 
> So, quit being argumentative and let's try to help people. Geesh, people like you are the reason I left the last forum!



Fascists like you are the reason I will leave this forum. You people don't love wine-making - you love power tripping over other people.

Don't tell me to quit being argumentative, I will uphold my right to resist oppression from fascist snobs like yourself - it is you who are persistently persecuting me here with your neurosis about what everyone SHOULD like.
... 
You are not trying to help anyone - you are unasked and unwanted in trying to impose your snobbish fascist ideas on me.I've made it abundantly clear and yet you still persist , insulting me over and over again for not adhering to you particular version of insanity.
... 
There is no science to personal preference you have a neurosis and a wish for power over others and traditional wine making will be what I want it to be not what you want it to be and I will use science for what purpose I want it not for your purpose. 

_No you still got it wrong_ - everyone should like their wine they way THEY like it not what you or I want. 
Do you really understand that other human beings are not extensions of your ego?

You shouldn't be giving anyone "advice" when they are telling you they don't want it. Save the snob tripe about "tradition" and science" for the unsuspecting newbie.
...
Are you going to tell me with formulas and quadratic equations about what I'm supposed to like? I don't give a darn about flavors within flavors within flavours and twiddling drops of wine in my tongue for 20 years to tell the difference - you can stick that snob stuff up your empty bottle. 
...
When something is delicious it is delicious , you don't make it better, - you just make it different. And a person can choose whether or not they want that difference or want to bother with it. 

You want to do that snob stuff, you want to make specialty wines that take five years to produce just to find some arcane taste - fine - it's your prerogative - enjoy it as your personal "thing" but keep it to yourself don't impose it on others.
Helping people means helping them to do what they want , not what you want. 


Go take a flying leap into a carboy and stop pestering me with your baloney. 
...
You are not a wine guru,you don't love wine making, you don't accept what people do with this hobby, no one should listen to you. You are just playing a game of trying to use wine to feel superior to others and wine is your weapon for doing so.
And many others are doing this fascist thing here - that's why some people got fed up with the mission statement here and general attitudes and said so and got banned. 
The idea of helping people to make the "best" wine is fascist and in-humanist because everyone has their own idea of what is best and it is an imposition to impose your own ideas of what is "best " on others - that is not love of a hobby , that is love of control. 

Mine for instance will never involve aging something for five years to make "gourmet" snob wine. I detest the idea.

A humanistic mission statement is to help people enjoy all facets of wine making whatever they are doing and want to do. 
...
When someone asks how to make a two handled corker work, the answer is not to slap them in the face and tell them they shouldn't use one and shouldn't be who they are, and should be using the top of the line model you , Mr. Rich guy has , oh Mr wonderful you (but you don't have that wineyard in France do you? ) that advice is 's not skill and that's not love of wine-making. A guru should know how to make every piece of equipment work form top to bottom and love every bit of it. 

I'm fed up with guys like you ,you are prime social oppressors believing in your_ scientific and traditional _ right to be oppressive ... and I would take great pride in getting banned from here so I can find a forum with real people in it and a mission statement for loave of a hobby instead of being run by a snob Gestapo.


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## GeoS (Jul 7, 2014)

Wow! I'm sorry for offering a different point of view.


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## GeoS (Jul 7, 2014)

What makes you think I'm wealthy or rich? I think you assume too much.


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## Runningwolf (Jul 7, 2014)

GeoS, I apologize for that post and I think it was also aimed at myself. It is reasons like this some members are banned.


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## GeoS (Jul 8, 2014)

Its all good.


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## reefman (Jul 8, 2014)

Wow, I see he posted that in another topic as well. He reminds me of someone else who was banned maybe a couple years ago.
He has some issues he needs to resolve.


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## Zule (Jul 18, 2014)

Well an update on my 6 gallon carboy batch, looks like its going good. Expect for a slightly odd taste (I am hoping its a mix of this being high alcohol + not all yeast cleared + me not used to drinking this room temp) looks like this will be my first successful ~13% wine batch. My full copy/pasted notes bellow:


May 22nd: SG 1.088, 6 gallons, used mostly 60% vit c apple juice on bottles with concetrate. Used meta-k.And coffee filter on top. Note: Not much activity.
May 24th: Added airock. Added 2 tsb YN #2 and 1/2 tsb of YN 1#
May 25th: SG 1.082. Bubbles over last night and had to do 2 changes today. 
May 26th: SG 1.072. Still smells kind of bad, but bubbles still going good.
May 28th: SG 1.060 (0.006 per day last 2 days).
May 30th: SG 1.043 (0.0085 per day last 2 days). Added 2 tsb YN #2 and 1/2 tsb of YN 1#
July 8th: SG 1.007 (0.0045 per day last 8 days). Still has bubbles every 2-3 seconds or so. Tasted a bit, tasted yeasty and sugary.
July 18th: SG 0.993 (0.0016 per day last 10 days). Cleared up a tad, still murky, still a little bit of bubbles in airlock and in wine. Tasted a tad weird (strong yeasty + sourish).



beggarsu said:


> Your general problem may be the lack of oxygen. Yeast needs air to ferment and space to release the CO2 - airlocks will stress/suffocate them. Most everyone uses just a loose towel or loose lid over the top - mostly to keep out insects.



I always used an airlock because every batch worked (tho some tasted very sour), things only started to fail when the sugar contents went up.

I am apprehensive about keeping the airlock off for too long because I have my carboys in my kitchen area and worried something in the air might get into the wine.




beggarsu said:


> Airlock only becomes necessary when the main ferment is done.
> 
> Almost all my batches ferment dry to around .990 within 6-7 days.



Mine above is 3 days away from being a month in and still not at 0.99, I wonder if mine is so much slower because lack of oxygen?

Maybe I will try another water ferment without any airlock and see how fast it goes as an experiment...


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## buffalofrenchy (Jul 18, 2014)

beggarsu said:


> Fascists like you are the reason I will leave this forum. You people don't love wine-making - you love power tripping over other people.
> 
> Don't tell me to quit being argumentative, I will uphold my right to resist oppression from fascist snobs like yourself - it is you who are persistently persecuting me here with your neurosis about what everyone SHOULD like.
> ...
> ...



Wow that s way too long for me. Could someone summarize that for me?


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## buffalofrenchy (Jul 18, 2014)

beggarsu said:


> ... so I can find a forum with real people in it and a mission statement for loave of a hobby instead of being run by a snob Gestapo.



Why don't you look for a spelling bee forum instead...


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## GeoS (Jul 19, 2014)

Zule,

With a SG of 0.993 I'd say your about done. I'd rack it into a clean carboy to get it off the sediment, put an airlock on it and let it set for a few weeks.

You will still see bubbles in the wine. This is the CO2 that is remaining after fermentation escaping. 

I find that using an air lock during primary ferment does take longer and is more likely to stall. I wouldn't worry about getting things in the must and just put the lid on loosely and give it a quick stir every few days.


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## Zule (Jul 20, 2014)

yeah my plan is to rack very soon (thinking in 3 days). Just wanted it to clear a bit more and maybe ferment a bit more (I do not back sweeten). 

I will also start a welsh frozen concentrate grape fruit batch tonight without any airlock for the first 4-5 days and see what happens.

edit: Looks like I accidentally put too much sugar. SG is at 1.122... I think I will throw in my yeast tomorrow with a bit tad over half the nutrients, no airlock and possibly carboy heating belt.


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## GeoS (Jul 21, 2014)

You will not need much sugar, if any, with the welchs frozen, it already has a lot of sugar in it.

Use the 100% juice concentrate, the red is a concord and the white is a Niagara. They do make a nice wine.


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## Zule (Jul 22, 2014)

Dang, has not started since yeast yesterday, all yeast seems to be sitting at the bottom. I am worried there might of been too much sugar without a 'starter' (1.122 is highest ive ever seen my hydrometer at). I added the heating belt to it a little while ago.

I already threw out my last 5 gallon batch of welsh, hoping this welsh does not turn out that way.

I think if this 3 gallon does not start within 2 days ill dump about a liter out, add a new can of welsh with water and throw in another yeast packet.


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## GeoS (Jul 23, 2014)

What are your room temps and did you let the must sit for a day before adding yeast?


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## Zule (Jul 23, 2014)

room temps changed, but probably were about 20c.... but with the carboy heating belt the must is probably at least 25c. I put a flashlight to the carboy this morning, looks like there is particles in the must, so maybe its going to start eventually its just taking its time.

I always let the must sit for at least 20 hours before adding the yeast.


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## GeoS (Jul 24, 2014)

Your temps seem pretty good, a bit on the low side but within reason. Are you doing primary ferment in a carboy? If so, I would not recommend that. Primary ferment should be in a bucket with an open top, or lid set on loosely. Fermentation needs oxygen. A carboy filled up to neck will prevent the must from getting oxygen.


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## Zule (Jul 30, 2014)

I only have carboys. I am going to dump this welsh batch tomorrow, its not going to start. The carboy probably did not help, but long story short I think the high sugar and meta-k played a part in this. I will probably start another welsh (third times the charm) with no extra sugar and probably very little meta-k.

Also I had another wine without an airlock as per everyone's direction. I took a hydrometer reading and noticed it was at 0.995. Oops. I just added the airlock, will that batch be ruined?


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## BernardSmith (Jul 31, 2014)

Zule said:


> I only have carboys. I am going to dump this welsh batch tomorrow, its not going to start. The carboy probably did not help, but long story short I think the high sugar and meta-k played a part in this. I will probably start another welsh (third times the charm) with no extra sugar and probably very little meta-k.



Sometimes (not often but sometimes) spending good money after bad is a better solution that dumping the bad. Don't dump your stuck must. That should always be a last resort. Never the first thing to do. 
Here's what I would do if I were in your shoes: if you have an empty carboy start a new batch of the wine with perhaps a gallon made from the concentrate. Don't add any sugar. Don't add any K-meta. After that batch has started to ferment (wait at least a day or two) then add the same volume from your stuck fermentation. Check to see if this new batch continues to ferment with the addition of the stuck must. If it does and it seems active (You could measure the changes in gravity with your hydrometer) then after a few hours of solid activity double THAT volume again by adding more from your troubled carboy. When that shows continued activity after a few hours pour in the remainder of the stuck fermentation (or pour the same volume from the active carboy into the stuck one. If there is still a gallon or so of room between the two carboys I might add one more gallon of fresh must. This way you will a) have restarted the stuck fermentation AND b) you will have reduced the high sugar concentration to a more reasonable level.


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## GeoS (Aug 2, 2014)

Zule said:


> I only have carboys. I am going to dump this welsh batch tomorrow, its not going to start. The carboy probably did not help, but long story short I think the high sugar and meta-k played a part in this. I will probably start another welsh (third times the charm) with no extra sugar and probably very little meta-k.
> 
> Also I had another wine without an airlock as per everyone's direction. I took a hydrometer reading and noticed it was at 0.995. Oops. I just added the airlock, will that batch be ruined?



Yes, the one without the airlock will be fine. Since co2 is heavier than oxygen it forms a layer helping keep oxygen out when fermentation is done. This is why they say to give it a stir each day during ferment. It gets the oxygen into the must when you want it.

Just put the airlock on when you can. It will be fine.

Glad to see you got one to ferment.


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