# Wine Juices



## ffemt128

Consumers Produce will be getting Chilean juices in the begining of May. I am considering ordering a bucket or two. I am looking at getting both a Red and a White. I have a few questions. 

What is the process for making wine from the juices? 
How long does the process usually take until you can bottle?
Has anyone made a Chilean Viognier? It is one of the juices I'm considering.

Any pointers or suggestions for juices to try. I will likely get more juice in the fall also.

Thanks


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## Omerta

I'm on my first two juice buckets. Can't say there is a huge difference between juice and a kit. A kit is juice... concentrated. Kits are better balanced since they go through a degree of processing. They make for consistent wines. Juice on the other hand takes a bit more care and prep. Doing some testing (pH, So2, TA, etc) on your must before you start might be worth your time. Adjust anything that might need to be before you start. Clearing hasn't been as easy as a Kit either. This is where your time difference will be. Patience.
Timing is a matter of you, your temps, your hydrometer and your clearing process.
Make sure you have all chemicals (Kmeta, Sorbate and such) additives (Tartaric Acid, Oak, Tannins, etc) before you get started.
I'm sure others will be more of a help since I'm still basically new to this.


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## Omerta

Oh and don't forget a proper yeast. May be wise to pickup some nutrient and possibly some energizer. It sounds like a lot of stuff but most of it is only a couple bucks or so.


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## Tom

ffemt128 said:


> Consumers Produce will be getting Chilean juices in the begining of May. I am considering ordering a bucket or two. I am looking at getting both a Red and a White. I have a few questions.
> 
> What is the process for making wine from the juices?
> How long does the process usually take until you can bottle?
> Has anyone made a Chilean Viognier? It is one of the juices I'm considering.
> 
> Any pointers or suggestions for juices to try. I will likely get more juice in the fall also.
> 
> Thanks



A member of my wine club made the Chilean Viognier and came out great. I am aging a CA all juice Viognier now. I would recommend the Chilean Malbec and Carmenere to start. The juices should come in "balanced" but, would ck the Ph TA and gravity. You may also consider to make a "banna soup" to add for bigger body. I think they could stand more body and dont be afraid to add a good helping (2+ cups)of Med toast oak.


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## ffemt128

I think I'll stop by the wine and spirits store on the way home from work and pick up a bottle of both for sampling. May pick up a viognier also to try out. I want to get away from the kits and try some juices for now since it is a bit less expensive. Kits gave me a great start and I'll likely do more in the future still but I want to broaden the horizon by trying the juices as well as making some non grape wines.


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## Omerta

Did a WE Viognier last year. Come out well. Its a different white. When I bring to functions people always ask what it is. Not a very familiar white but I enjoy it.


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## nrlightfoot

I was wondering what varieties of wine grape juices they carry, but I didn't see any list on the website. Does anyone know where to find that? Do they carry most kinds or are there just a few varieties they carry?


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## nrlightfoot

Nevermind, I found the order page. Does anyone know of anyplace closer to Northern Michigan to find juice like that? I'd have to buy a lot of juice to justify the $100+ gas bill to get there and back!

For other people who may wonder, here's the list: 

CHILEAN BARBERA JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $46.00 
CHILEAN CABERNET FRANC JUICE 6 GAL. $48.00 
CHILEAN CARMENERE JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $49.00 
CHILEAN CABERNET SAUVIGNON BKT 6 GAL. $49.00 
CHILEAN CHARDONNAY JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $45.00 
CHILEAN CHIANTI JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $46.00 
CHILEAN MALBEC JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $49.00 
CHILEAN MERLOT JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00 
CHILEAN MUSCAT JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $45.00 
CHILEAN PINOT NOIR JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $51.00 
CHILEAN PINOT GRIGIO JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $48.00 
CHILEAN SYRAH JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00 
CHILEAN VIOGNIER JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00 
CHILEAN ZINFANDEL JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $51.00


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## TheTooth

nrlightfoot said:


> Nevermind, I found the order page. Does anyone know of anyplace closer to Northern Michigan to find juice like that? I'd have to buy a lot of juice to justify the $100+ gas bill to get there and back!
> 
> For other people who may wonder, here's the list:
> 
> CHILEAN BARBERA JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $46.00
> CHILEAN CABERNET FRANC JUICE 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN CARMENERE JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $49.00
> CHILEAN CABERNET SAUVIGNON BKT 6 GAL. $49.00
> CHILEAN CHARDONNAY JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $45.00
> CHILEAN CHIANTI JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $46.00
> CHILEAN MALBEC JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $49.00
> CHILEAN MERLOT JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN MUSCAT JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $45.00
> CHILEAN PINOT NOIR JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $51.00
> CHILEAN PINOT GRIGIO JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN SYRAH JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN VIOGNIER JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN ZINFANDEL JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $51.00



For that matter, does anyone know of places to get this sort of thing in Southern California? Specifically around the Los Angeles/Orange County area?


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## Tom

I know I can P/U here in South Jersey / Philly area


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## djrockinsteve

Doug, I've been making wine from 
Calif. juice for a few years now. Bought all from Premier Produce in the strip too. I'm interested in doing some Chilian wine, I'll check out your produce guy. Glad I won't have to go far.

As far as wine from juice it's very easy. Just need to be patient. I can help you if you need assistance.


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## ffemt128

djrockinsteve said:


> Doug, I've been making wine from
> Calif. juice for a few years now. Bought all from Premier Produce in the strip too. I'm interested in doing some Chilian wine, I'll check out your produce guy. Glad I won't have to go far.
> 
> As far as wine from juice it's very easy. Just need to be patient. I can help you if you need assistance.



I have a friend at work that has done this for years, I actually tried to get juice before I bought the kit. I'm looking forward to trying this. Stopped and bought a Malbec, Carmener (sp) and a Viognier on the way home. I guess we'll have something to do when the snow hits tomorrow. Been hearing on the FD radio abt the winter storm warning from Noon tomorrow until 6:00 pm Saturday. Calling for 6-12 inches...Got wine?


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## Tom

Well I have a BIG selection in my wine cellar for the 12+" comming Fri/Sat. I may not get bread and milk but I will not be thursty !


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## ffemt128

I picked up a bottle of Viognier, Carmener and a bottle of Malbec on the way home. I'm no connoisseur of wine, actually until decided to make wine last year I hadn't had any alcohol for almost 10 years (personal choice). Its difficult to explain my tastes given that fact and my lack of knowlege of wine. 

We tried the Viognier, it definately was not our taste in white wine. To me it was heavy (I guess you would call that full bodied) and sweet but not fruity sweet, to me it also had a strange after taste. I could drink this, but definately would not be a first choice in a white. If we buy a white it is generally a White Zinfindel, a Pinot Grigio or maybe a White Merlot usually.

We also tried the Carmener, to me it had a wonderful aroma when it was uncorked and also in the glass. My wife didn't like it. I liked the flavor and there was no bad after taste, however, still a bit to dry and heavy tasting for my likes right now. This one could definately grow on me. When purchasing reds now my wife generally doesnt like a heavy dry wine. We made the Valpolicella, and although we drank it way to early, we both really enjoyed that and the remaining 10 bottles get better and better with each one we open. 

I'm looking forward to trying the Malbec this weekend. I'll let you know what I think. 

I think I'm even more confused about what juices to try now than before I started.


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## Tom

Sorry to hear you didnt like them. Were those bottles from Chile? also the price would make a difference. Shoot for &15.00 range. Keep in mind most big reds will be dry. P/U a Chilean Red Zenfandel next then. Cant go wrong w/ Pinot Noir. If the Cab/Merlot blend is offered SWMBO loves that.


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## rawlus

on a technical note, white zin and white merlot are blush wines, not whites.
based on your stated preferences, i am guessing you like off-dry whites over fully dry whites... so for kits start reading the sweetness indexes on the kit sites and look for whites which have an f-pack addition and sweetness above 1... some sweetened rieslings come to mind. also be aware that if you make a dry white wine you can always back sweeten it to taste either by the glass or prior to bottling with some simple bench trials to determine the right level of sweetness and then addition of a sugar solution or fresh juice to bring it back to your liking.

as to reds, if light reds are your preference, look at valpolicella, beaujolais, nebbiolo, gamay, light rioja, cabernet franc, etc. fruit-forward wines with light or no oak can give the sensation of being on the sweeter side even when fermented dry because their fruitiness is so pronounced. low tannins also help with this effect. you might also be interested in some of the fruit-wine based Mist kits, blueberry merlot, etc. these kits use red varietals combined with fresh fruit to arrive at a slightly sweeter and fruitier red wine... they are low alcohol by the instructions but there are tweaks to up the alcohol content into the 12-14 range for typical red wines if desired.

as your palate develops and you sample more wine you will see your preference change over time i bet. the advantage of the mist kits is that they are ready to drink within weeks of bottling.


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## ffemt128

Tom said:


> Sorry to hear you didnt like them. Were those bottles from Chile? also the price would make a difference. Shoot for &15.00 range. Keep in mind most big reds will be dry. P/U a Chilean Red Zenfandel next then. Cant go wrong w/ Pinot Noir. If the Cab/Merlot blend is offered SWMBO loves that.




Yes, all 3 were from Chile. I'm still exploring options, the Carmener was good, just not to my taste just yet.



rawlus said:


> on a technical note, white zin and white merlot are blush wines, not whites.
> based on your stated preferences, i am guessing you like off-dry whites over fully dry whites... so for kits start reading the sweetness indexes on the kit sites and look for whites which have an f-pack addition and sweetness above 1... some sweetened rieslings come to mind. also be aware that if you make a dry white wine you can always back sweeten it to taste either by the glass or prior to bottling with some simple bench trials to determine the right level of sweetness and then addition of a sugar solution or fresh juice to bring it back to your liking.
> 
> as to reds, if light reds are your preference, look at valpolicella, beaujolais, nebbiolo, gamay, light rioja, cabernet franc, etc. fruit-forward wines with light or no oak can give the sensation of being on the sweeter side even when fermented dry because their fruitiness is so pronounced. low tannins also help with this effect. you might also be interested in some of the fruit-wine based Mist kits, blueberry merlot, etc. these kits use red varietals combined with fresh fruit to arrive at a slightly sweeter and fruitier red wine... they are low alcohol by the instructions but there are tweaks to up the alcohol content into the 12-14 range for typical red wines if desired.
> 
> as your palate develops and you sample more wine you will see your preference change over time i bet. the advantage of the mist kits is that they are ready to drink within weeks of bottling.



I did know they weren't truely whites. Thanks for the other suggestions for reds. I'll have to check those out next time we are at the wine and spirits store. 

As I stated, not a real big wine drinker so I have not experienced many of the differing types out there. I'm sure as I try more my palate will develope. In the mean time, I appreciate all the suggestions as to what may be a better match to the taste I have described.


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## ffemt128

I opened the Malbec that I previously purchased last night. I enjoyed it very much.


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## Runningwolf

djrockinsteve said:


> Doug, I've been making wine from
> Calif. juice for a few years now. Bought all from Premier Produce in the strip too. I'm interested in doing some Chilian wine, I'll check out your produce guy. Glad I won't have to go far.
> 
> As far as wine from juice it's very easy. Just need to be patient. I can help you if you need assistance.



Hey DJ , I understand there is also a produce company up in the Sharon/Hermitage area that also brings in a very good juice. I don't know the name of it but that a very small area that it would be easy to figure out if you wanted to check it out.


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## ffemt128

Placed my pre-order today for a bucket of Cabernet Franc and also a bucket of Pinot Grigio. I will pick it up May 11th from Consumer Produce in the Strip District. Looking forward to getting away from a kit product and going to fresh juices. I will likely order again in the fall when the get other juice in.

What is the average yield from Juice buckets after racking etc if one were to use a 5 gallon carboy and a 1 gallon jug vs a 6 gallon carboy. What's lost due to lees? I realize this can be topped up with a like wine. Just curious of the output if I didn't top up?

Whoo Hooo I can't wait.


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## djrockinsteve

ffemt128 said:


> Placed my pre-order today for a bucket of Cabernet Franc and also a bucket of Pinot Grigio. I will pick it up May 11th from Consumer Produce in the Strip District. Looking forward to getting away from a kit product and going to fresh juices. I will likely order again in the fall when the get other juice in.
> 
> What is the average yield from Juice buckets after racking etc if one were to use a 5 gallon carboy and a 1 gallon jug vs a 6 gallon carboy. What's lost due to lees? I realize this can be topped up with a like wine. Just curious of the output if I didn't top up?
> 
> Whoo Hooo I can't wait.



Doug, this past season my Regina buckets were close to the lid. I had a lot of juice. Usually I had received 5 1/2 gallons after fermenting. This works out great since after the wine cleared, I racked the 5 and the 1/2 gallon together for a full 5 gallons to bulk age and had a little extra to sample.


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## ffemt128

djrockinsteve said:


> Doug, this past season my Regina buckets were close to the lid. I had a lot of juice. Usually I had received 5 1/2 gallons after fermenting. This works out great since after the wine cleared, I racked the 5 and the 1/2 gallon together for a full 5 gallons to bulk age and had a little extra to sample.



That's what I was hoping for. I'll finally have a use for my 2 - 5 gallon carboys. Looks like I'll be needing to pick up a few more 1/2 gallon jugs, some bungs and some small bungs that fit a regular wine bottle so that I can make use of my 1.5 l bottles if need be.


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## ffemt128

I decided on the Cabernet Franc based on the recommendation of rawlus. He sugested that based on how I described our tastes in red wine. I was going to get the Malbec, becuase I did like the bottle I purchased of that but it still wasn't high on my wife's list, of course she was sick when she tried it. Maybe I should get another bottle and have her try again then add to my order or save for another time.


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## rawlus

let us know how you like the cab franc!

if you wanted to try a commercial example, many varietal cab francs are produced in north fork of long island NY, check peconic bay, roanoke vineyards, sherwood house vineyard, pellegrini vineyards, and The Old Field for some interesting examples. none of these wines are distributed to my knowledge, but you could order online or via phone direct from the winery and they'd ship to you. 

cab sauvignon is actually a cross of cab fran and sauvignon blanc. cab franc retains many of cab sauvs qualities but is generally a lighter style all around, body, color and tannins. green bell pepper is a typical distinctive hallmark of cab franc, and often raspberry, black currant, black cherry and similar fruits are also noted. the nose on cab franc i think is more aromatic than cab sauv in general, and because of the softer tannins i think food pairing possibilities may be broader with cab franc than it's offspring cab sauvignon. overall its generally a smoother wine than cab sauv, not as tactile from high alcohol and tannins. i really enjoy it as a pure varietal wine even though worldwide its far more prevalent in bourdeaux-style blends with cab sauv and merlot as sort of a holy trinity type of thing. cab franc is also usually a key component in meritage blends from the US.


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## Julie

rawlus said:


> let us know how you like the cab franc!
> 
> .... none of these wines are distributed to my knowledge, but you could order online or via phone direct from the winery and they'd ship to you.



I'm not sure if they will ship to PA. I have tried to get some Muscadine wine shipped here from NC but so far have not found one who will. Has something to do with our alcohol laws.


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## rawlus

yeah. MA shipping laws are even worse, but some wineries will find a way - keep trying. 

also go to freethegrapes.org and send letters to your congresspeople. limiting wine shipments from small wineries to consumers is unconstitutional and puts the interests of huge distributors ahead of those of consumers.


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## Julie

Thanks Rawlus,

I will definitely be writing. At the beginning of last year, their were some congressmen who wanted to stop local wineries from selling their wines at their winery. They wanted all wines to be sold to the state stores and consumers would have to go to a state store to buy.

I was so angry,  I wrote to my local state rep and made everyone in my family write as well.


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## IQwine

Note to self --> Don't make Julie angry.


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## Julie

IQwine said:


> Note to self --> Don't make Julie angry.



Oh, I don't normally get angry, I usually just get even


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## rawlus

in MA we've had some draconian laws that prohibit out of state wine shipments into MA which gives the big distributors a monopoly on the business, and they of course only carry pull wines, those which sell themselves, which means selection is crap. on top of that, wine is only sold at liquor stores, not grocery or other shops. 
freethegrapes helped get our case brought to court several years ago - the court rules in consumers favor calling the state laws unconstitutional and in violation of free interstate trade, preference to one segment of the market over another, etc. the state AG of course appealed that decision to the state court of appeals, THAT court upheld the lower court's ruling. i think the AG is now planning to mount yet another appeal to the state supreme court. because, you know, what's good for the consumer can't be what she'll support - she has to take care of the powerful distributors and the liquor store association's lobby.

personally, if the local liquor store isn't carrying what i want, then i am okay with them going out of business - i don't care if it's a family business, i don't care if they've been here for 100 years, the object of the lesson is to sell what customers want, not determine what options they get. any business that chooses to ignore the free market, and invoke powerful lobbies to assert control and restriction against an open and free market, should go out of business, lose everything, die a painful death.

i really hate this backwards state sometimes - the political institutionalization and nanny-ism in the way the govt treats the voters is second to none.


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## joewino

My brother moved down to Tennessee and found out that they also have the same stupid law. It is illegal to transport wine across the border INTO Tennessee unless you are of a registered distribution entity.

If anyone in the Michigan area is looking for Chilean Juice, I started carrying it in my business. Check out the web-site and let me know what you think:
http://www.MacombVintnerSupply.com


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## rocket man

joewino said:


> If anyone in the Michigan area is looking for Chilean Juice, I started carrying it in my business. Check out the web-site and let me know what you think:
> http://www.MacombVintnerSupply.com



What city are you in?


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## rms1

nrlightfoot said:


> Nevermind, I found the order page. Does anyone know of anyplace closer to Northern Michigan to find juice like that? I'd have to buy a lot of juice to justify the $100+ gas bill to get there and back!
> 
> For other people who may wonder, here's the list:
> 
> CHILEAN BARBERA JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $46.00
> CHILEAN CABERNET FRANC JUICE 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN CARMENERE JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $49.00
> CHILEAN CABERNET SAUVIGNON BKT 6 GAL. $49.00
> CHILEAN CHARDONNAY JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $45.00
> CHILEAN CHIANTI JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $46.00
> CHILEAN MALBEC JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $49.00
> CHILEAN MERLOT JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN MUSCAT JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $45.00
> CHILEAN PINOT NOIR JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $51.00
> CHILEAN PINOT GRIGIO JUICE BKT 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN SYRAH JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN VIOGNIER JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $48.00
> CHILEAN ZINFANDEL JUICE BUCKET 6 GAL. $51.00


From the above, I can't determine where you have to go to get juice. I live in Belleville, MI and I've started getting juice from Macomb Vinters http://www.MacombVintnerSupply.com His location is in Macomb, MI. He's currently taking orders for Spring delivery of Chilean Juices. Dunno if this is closer.


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## ffemt128

djrockinsteve said:


> Doug, I've been making wine from
> Calif. juice for a few years now. Bought all from Premier Produce in the strip too. I'm interested in doing some Chilian wine, I'll check out your produce guy. Glad I won't have to go far.
> 
> As far as wine from juice it's very easy. Just need to be patient. I can help you if you need assistance.




Where's Premier Produce down here? Is it in the fruit terminal buildings? I may have to see what they have in the fall and compare prices/selection.

Looking forward to my first foray into juices.


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## djrockinsteve

17th And 20th And Smallman Streets
Pittsburgh‎ PA‎ 15222
(412) 765-0710

they have a web site,

premiereproducepittsburgh.com

2009 prices FYI 6 plus gallons
Cab. Sauvignon, Syrah, Nebbiolo, Zinfandel $45.00
Merlot, Chianti, Sangiovese, Beaujolais $44.00


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## nrlightfoot

I'm getting ready to order some buckets of Chilean Juice, probably Cabernet Sauvignon and Malbec, and I was thinking about adding some crushed grapes to it during the fermentation. Due to the earthquake I won't be able to get fresh grapes from the same place that is selling me the juice in Michigan, so I found a 4 gallon bucket of frozen Syrah that I can get for $73 (including shipping). 

It looks like that should blend well with the Cabernet, but do you think it will work with the Malbec or should I try a different variety? How much of the grapes should I use per 6 gallons of juice? 

Or if anyone knows where I can get fresh grapes in Michigan that would be helpful.


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## nrlightfoot

I think I changed my mind, I'm just going to make the wine from the juice buckets without adding grapes unless I can find some that are the same varieties as the juice.

Besides checking the Brix, TA, and PH and adjusting if needed, should I add anything besides yeast to the juice, tannins or nutrients for example?


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## Tom

You should get some OAK for the reds.


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## nrlightfoot

I'm picking up my wine juice this weekend, I ended up ordering 1 each of Cabernet Sauvignon, Sauvignon Blanc, Carmenere, and Malbec. I'm wondering if I have to add sulfites to the juice buckets 1 day before the yeast, or are they already sulfited?

I'm planning to do malo-lactic fermentation on the reds so I need to figure out what to do with the sulfites so I don't get them too high for that. I have the equipment to test for sufites now, but this is my first non-kit wine.

I was planning to buy one pack of the malo-lactic culture and grow it in a starter it like I do with yeast, but I'm not quite sure what to feed those bacteria.


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## Tom

DO NOT add anything to the juice. Bring it up to room temp and pitch the yeast with nutrients.
For the reds I like RC212
Check the MLF you are using as to what gravity to rack and pitch the culture. You do NOT want to add SORBATES to ANY wine that went thru MLF. You dont want to add any sulfites until MLF is done.
Oaking should be done on all 3 reds you are making.
The Malbec and Carmenere are great tasting wines. Plan on aging after MLF up to a year. Gets better 1 yr after bottling.
Good luck
*I would not try to split the MFL. ONE package per batch.
It's a culture not a yeast.*
I won't receive mine till the 1st week of May


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## Tom

BTW The juice is already (balanced) adjusted so no testing should be required. For the MLF culture I rehydrate in water then add.


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## IQwine

How would I go about finding some juice locally? I would think that shipping charges would be out of the question.


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## Tom

IQ,
Happy belated B-day.


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## Tom

IQwine said:


> How would I go about finding some juice locally? I would think that shipping charges would be out of the question.


Is there a wine club near by? Is there a home brew store? How do you get supplies?


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## IQwine

Thx, Tom the Super Mod


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## IQwine

My LHBS has done fresh grapes but not juice. He mostly does kits for wine and beer.

there is a wine club... will have to check with them. I see that they do some local fresh grapes on their website. No mention of fresh juice from Chile or Ca, etc.
thx


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## Tom

Ask if their supplier of grapes has Juice available. They probably don't carry juice because they have no refrigeration? Or, maybe they can tell you where.


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## Lurker

While watching the Phillies win today at my buddies home, we were drinking his 09 Chilean Viognier from a juice bucket, It was very good. I would recommend it.


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## Brintk

Received an e-mail today from Ron C. @ Consumers Produce in Pittsburgh. He says that Chilean Juice buckets will be available for pick up starting on May 12th. It's time to start emptying a few carboys to make room.


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## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> Received an e-mail today from Ron C. @ Consumers Produce in Pittsburgh. He says that Chilean Juice buckets will be available for pick up starting on May 12th. It's time to start emptying a few carboys to make room.



Yep, got my email also. Good to see another Pittsburgher here. I think come May I'll have some carboys ready to empty. If not another excuse to but an extra.


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## Tom

I just had my wine club meeting @ Gino's. He also said it will start coming in the 5th and should all be here by the 12th


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## ffemt128

Supposed to be picking up my juice today, any recommendations on how to proceed with it. For sure getting a Pinot Grigio and a Cabernet Franc. Also trying for a Merlot and a Chianti.


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## Tom

The Chilean wine juices are balanced already. Take a gravity reading bring up to temp and add yeast. (dont be surprised it it already started fermentation)
For the reds I added 2# of raisins for body. Or, consider adding banana "soup". These juices may lack body. Just a FYI.


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## djrockinsteve

I would actually like to add a Brazillian Body to these wines but that's another story. Are Chilean wines a little thinner than those from Calif. wine for wine?


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## Tom

Lets put it this way. I like "body" and from past experience w/ some juices.


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## ffemt128

Here's what I ended up picking up today, all sg readings are at about 42 degrees.

Pinot Grigio 1.092
Sauvigion Blanc 1.090
Chianti 1.090
Cabernet Franc 1.090

I have them sitting on the landing going to the cellar now. Current temp with out heat being in since 7:00am was 66 degrees at that point. I do have a heat register at the bottom of the steps so temps should average around 70 and I have 2 brew belts that will be put to use if needed.

I'm planning on pitching yeast tomorrow morning prior to work or come home home at lunch and take care of it. THis way I know the juice is up to temp.


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## djrockinsteve

Tom said:


> The Chilean wine juices are balanced already. Take a gravity reading bring up to temp and add yeast. (dont be surprised it it already started fermentation)
> For the reds I added 2# of raisins for body. Or, consider adding banana "soup". These juices may lack body. Just a FYI.



Please refresh my memory, do we use white raisins?


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## Tom

Body. Got them from Sams and not white. Come in a 2 pak 2-2# bags.


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## Brintk

I picked up my Chilean juice buckets today. Camenere readings; S.G. 1.092, pH 3.83, Temp 46⁰F; Malbec readings; S.G. 1.090, pH 3.75, Temp 46⁰. Upon reading the verbage on the pail, I was surprised to see that one of the ingredients that is listed is "wine yeast", in addition to tartaric acid and tannin. No indication is given as to what variety of "wine yeast" has been added. That is a serious disappointment.

Since I have never done Chilean juice buckets before, I ask the forum is this normal to have the must pre-innoculated?


----------



## Tom

There is yeast in the juice buckets. Sometimes it may have started fermentation by the time you get it home. But, it is either wild or unknown kind. That is why you want to sulfite it to stun the yeast and add yours 24 hrs later. The 34* that it ships / stores in stops most yeast from multiplying. BUT, once it warms it wakes up some of the yeast.

BTW I have not sean any info that says yeast added on my buckets.


----------



## Brintk

Tom,
Thank you for your quick reply. The product name on the buckets is "Toro Negro", and is packaged in Canada. I have done "Home Wine" juice buckets in the past, which were not pre-innoculated. I was expecting a similar product. (Actually, I was hoping for a better product.)

Upon reading the label, and seeing "wine yeast", I did give them a dose of K-meta. The problem is that now there is no telling, without more extensive testing than I care to do, whether any fermentation has taken place and what effect that will have on the final product. On the bright side, it's going to be an adventure.

Caveat emptor...


----------



## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> Tom,
> Thank you for your quick reply. The product name on the buckets is "Toro Negro", and is packaged in Canada. I have done "Home Wine" juice buckets in the past, which were not pre-innoculated. I was expecting a similar product. (Actually, I was hoping for a better product.)
> 
> Upon reading the label, and seeing "wine yeast", I did give them a dose of K-meta. The problem is that now there is no telling, without more extensive testing than I care to do, whether any fermentation has taken place and what effect that will have on the final product. On the bright side, it's going to be an adventure.
> 
> Caveat emptor...



See you're in Pittsburgh, did you get you juice from Consumer's?


----------



## Tom

I guess each importer does it differently. I get my juice from Gino's in NJ. I have never sean yeast listed on my buckets. So, I wonder.


----------



## Brintk

ffemt128 said:


> See you're in Pittsburgh, did you get you juice from Consumer's?



Yes. Picked them up today. 

I noticed your prior post. Did you check your buckets after reading my post about the "wine yeast"?


----------



## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> Yes. Picked them up today.
> 
> I noticed your prior post. Did you check your buckets after reading my post about the "wine yeast"?



Yes, it does say wine yeast. Did you notice you have gape must opposed to grape must?

My temps are at 60 degrees now. I'll check them again in the morning and will most likely pitch my yeast at lunchtime.


----------



## ffemt128

*Oaking*

If I decide to oak the reds I picked up, at what point do I do so? Do I oak in the primary or after it is transferred to the secondary? I've read varying articles on the subject and wanted to know what everyone thought.


----------



## djrockinsteve

I oak my big reds 8 ounces American oak after wine has cleared then bulk age to one year. Other reds I do less oak, this past season I did 3/4 cup.


----------



## Brintk

djrockinsteve said:


> I oak my big reds 8 ounces American oak after wine has cleared then bulk age to one year. Other reds I do less oak, this past season I did 3/4 cup.



Given the S.G.'s of these Chilean juice buckets, and the lack of skins, I doubt that these will turn out to be "big" reds. I intend to start off on the light side with oak cubes (About 30 grams/6 gallons.) after fermentation is complete. Depending on how it tastes after a month, or so, of aging I may add more. 

I also plan on putting them through MLF, then adjusting the acid after that.


----------



## Brintk

ffemt128 said:


> Yes, it does say wine yeast. Did you notice you have gape must opposed to grape must?
> 
> My temps are at 60 degrees now. I'll check them again in the morning and will most likely pitch my yeast at lunchtime.



As a further note on the "wine yeast" in the Toro Negro juice pails sold by Consumer's, I sent an email to <[email protected]> asking about the type, manufacturer and name of the wine yeast additive to these juice pails. Their answer is below;

>The ingredients should say that it “may contain” the ingredients described >by you, because we sell these pails in Canada also. For the US none of >those ingredients are added.

>Sorry for the confusion it has caused, if you have any other questions or >concerns, please feel free to contact me.

>Regards,

>Valeria Jasarevic

>Toro Negro

Okay then. I'm happy.


----------



## Tom

Brintk said:


> Given the S.G.'s of these Chilean juice buckets, and the lack of skins, I doubt that these will turn out to be "big" reds. I intend to start off on the light side with oak cubes (About 30 grams/6 gallons.) after fermentation is complete. Depending on how it tastes after a month, or so, of aging I may add more.
> 
> I also plan on putting them through MLF, then adjusting the acid after that.


 If still in the primary make a banana "soup". I just did that to my 6 Chilean buckets. I started with 7#'s of bananas and got 8 cups that all shared equal amts.. Same here I will do MLF


----------



## ffemt128

I moved my 2 buckets of white to the 2nd floor bedroom last night and I now have the brew belts on the reds. Temps were not going much above 65. I know it will ferment at that temp, but everyone recommends higher temps. Temps of the reds this am were 77 degrees, I moved the belts a little higher on the buckets to try to get down to 75. I have yet to check temp of the whites but it's 74 on the 2nd floor of the house with windows open last night. 

Yeasties are very happy now, such a nice sound of little bubbles being formed.


----------



## Brintk

ffemt128 said:


> I moved my 2 buckets of white to the 2nd floor bedroom last night and I now have the brew belts on the reds. Temps were not going much above 65. I know it will ferment at that temp, but everyone recommends higher temps. Temps of the reds this am were 77 degrees, I moved the belts a little higher on the buckets to try to get down to 75. I have yet to check temp of the whites but it's 74 on the 2nd floor of the house with windows open last night.
> 
> Yeasties are very happy now, such a nice sound of little bubbles being formed.



I know what you mean about the sound of happy yeasties. The best part is the smell, though. Added DAP this morning and the smell got even sweeter. Ya gotta love it!

My readings this morning;
Malbec = S.G. 1.04, Brix 10.0, Temp 80⁰; Carmenere = S.G. 1.039, Brix 9.8, Temp 81⁰


----------



## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> I know what you mean about the sound of happy yeasties. The best part is the smell, though. Added DAP this morning and the smell got even sweeter. Ya gotta love it!
> 
> My readings this morning;
> Malbec = S.G. 1.04, Brix 10.0, Temp 80⁰; Carmenere = S.G. 1.039, Brix 9.8, Temp 81⁰



I didn't even bother checking the SG since I only moved to warmer temps last night. I'll check on Sunday. OIh and yes the smell is wonderful when you open the cellar door. Can't notice it so much from the whites but definately the Cab Franc and the Chianti

What time did you pick up you juices on Wednesday. We were there around 12:30-1:00. I'm already looking forward to fall for the CA juices. 

I'll be picking up some carboys from Premier Produce (thanks Steve) next week. I need at least 2 5 gallon for transfer as one of my 5's is tied up with elderberry now.


----------



## Brintk

ffemt128 said:


> I didn't even bother checking the SG since I only moved to warmer temps last night. I'll check on Sunday. OIh and yes the smell is wonderful when you open the cellar door. Can't notice it so much from the whites but definately the Cab Franc and the Chianti
> 
> What time did you pick up you juices on Wednesday. We were there around 12:30-1:00. I'm already looking forward to fall for the CA juices.
> 
> I'll be picking up some carboys from Premier Produce (thanks Steve) next week. I need at least 2 5 gallon for transfer as one of my 5's is tied up with elderberry now.



I'm fermenting in a corner of my kitchen, much to my wife's dismay. I like to keep the temps of my reds in the range of 78⁰ - 82⁰. The cellar is too cool to achieve that range. At the rate that these are fermenting I will probably have to put them under an airlock either Friday evening or Saturday morning.

I was at CP, picking up my pails, @ around 1:00 on Wednesday. Maybe we passed each other at the loading dock?


----------



## ffemt128

Probably did, I was in the first bay in by the corner of the building in a silver Jeep Liberty


----------



## Brintk

I pulled in to the second bay from the building just as you pulled out. Green Mercury Montego. Which part of the 'burgh are you from? I'm from Bethel.


----------



## ffemt128

Crafton area


----------



## Lurker

Tom said:


> A member of my wine club made the Chilean Viognier and came out great. I am aging a CA all juice Viognier now. I would recommend the Chilean Malbec and Carmenere to start. The juices should come in "balanced" but, would ck the Ph TA and gravity. You may also consider to make a "banna soup" to add for bigger body. I think they could stand more body and dont be afraid to add a good helping (2+ cups)of Med toast oak.



A buddy of mine did dthe Chilean Viognier last year. He gave me a bottle which was very good.


----------



## ffemt128

Checked SG's yesterday. The reds have the brew belts on them during the night and about 3-4 hours during the day for a total of about 12 hours. The whites are on the 2nd floor where the room temps are mid 70's. Must temps of the reds are around 75 and the whites were around 70. Sg's were as follows;

Cab Franc 1.010
Chianti 1.012
Pinot Grigio 1.040
Sav Blanc 1.044

I'll likely move the brew belts to the whites tomorrow after work as the reds will likely be below 1.0 by then.


----------



## ffemt128

Reds are at 1.00 and Whites are at 1.030 or there abouts. Going to oak the Cab Franc with French Medium Oak beans after transfer to secondary. Chianti will be oaked with the same. We're not real crazy about a heavy oak taste so will go on the light side for now. The package says that 3 oz of the beans for 2 months is good for 5-6 gallons for a fresh barrel taste. Probably going to start with half that and taste along the way. 

Any suggestions or does it sound like a plan?


----------



## Brintk

ffemt128 said:


> Reds are at 1.00 and Whites are at 1.030 or there abouts. Going to oak the Cab Franc with French Medium Oak beans after transfer to secondary. Chianti will be oaked with the same. We're not real crazy about a heavy oak taste so will go on the light side for now. The package says that 3 oz of the beans for 2 months is good for 5-6 gallons for a fresh barrel taste. Probably going to start with half that and taste along the way.
> 
> Any suggestions or does it sound like a plan?



Did you give any thoughts to Malolactic Fermentation? If so, don't add any K-meta or K-sorbate before doing that. Then, if you do, don't add any k-sorbate afterward.


----------



## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> Did you give any thoughts to Malolactic Fermentation? If so, don't add any K-meta or K-sorbate before doing that. Then, if you do, don't add any k-sorbate afterward.



Haven't really given it any thought, I may haver to read up on this. How does one go about Malolactic Fermentation?


----------



## Wade E

You introduce the bacteria to your wine as soon as its done fermenting witout adding any sorbate or sulfite. Here is a link for the MLF culture.
http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=WLP790, You should also get a test kit for checking when the malic acid is gone but you can wait it out until you see no more action. It is a fermentation but no where near as active as a primary fermentation so you dont have to worry about headspac with this and should keep it topped up during this. 
http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=223-10


----------



## ffemt128

Excuse my ignorance as I haven't yet looked into this. What are the benefits of doing MLF? (runs off to check the search function and my google foo powers)


----------



## Brintk

ffemt128 said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I haven't yet looked into this. What are the benefits of doing MLF? (runs off to check the search function and my google foo powers)



There is a good article on E. C. Kraus' website regarding MLF. The URL is as follows; http://www.eckraus.com/home-wine-making-malolactic-fermentation.html


----------



## ffemt128

so basically if I decide to go this route, I would transfer to secondary and then introduce the mlf culture. I noticed the local brew place has the test kits on their website but I didn't notice the cultures. I'll have to stop over tomorrow after work and see and then make up my mind.

just called, not in stock. If I order on-line, can oaking still take place at the same time?


----------



## Tom

yes I have oaked at the same time
I have some VP41 ML culture and will do that on my Chilean juices soon.


----------



## ffemt128

Wade E said:


> You introduce the bacteria to your wine as soon as its done fermenting witout adding any sorbate or sulfite. Here is a link for the MLF culture.
> http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=WLP790, You should also get a test kit for checking when the malic acid is gone but you can wait it out until you see no more action. It is a fermentation but no where near as active as a primary fermentation so you dont have to worry about headspac with this and should keep it topped up during this.
> http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=223-10



Whats the bif difference to the liquid cultures vs the dry culture? The above place has the dry in stock but the liquid referenced in the lin wont be available until June 7. Considering placing an order.


----------



## Tom

Have not used the liquid just the powder. One reason I can think of is Shelf Life. Powder is at least 2 years.


----------



## ffemt128

Guess I should have asked if there was any nutrients, etc recommended before I placed my order. Are there any special nutrients etx that are required to be added for MLF? I can call and add them to my order if so. 

Thanks

Just a side note, reds are at .994


----------



## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> Did you give any thoughts to Malolactic Fermentation? If so, don't add any K-meta or K-sorbate before doing that. Then, if you do, don't add any k-sorbate afterward.



Are you saying with MLS there is no need to add sorbate to stabilize after MLF completes? I would still add K-meta after MLF completes correct? What happens if after MLF is complete you add sorbate? Just curious since I've ordered the dry culture and test kit this am and I don't want to screw this up.


----------



## Tom

ffemt128 said:


> Guess I should have asked if there was any nutrients, etc recommended before I placed my order. Are there any special nutrients etx that are required to be added for MLF? I can call and add them to my order if so.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Just a side note, reds are at .994



Tine to add MLF!
Nothing else needed


----------



## Tom

ffemt128 said:


> Are you saying with MLS there is no need to add sorbate to stabilize after MLF completes? I would still add K-meta after MLF completes correct? What happens if after MLF is complete you add sorbate? Just curious since I've ordered the dry culture and test kit this am and I don't want to screw this up.


DO NOT add anything now. Once MLF is done add 1/4tsp of meta. DO NOT EVER add Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF. It will add a geranium taste to it


----------



## ffemt128

Tom said:


> DO NOT add anything now. Once MLF is done add 1/4tsp of meta. DO NOT EVER add Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF. It will add a geranium taste to it



Good deal, that explains it. I thought I had read that just wanted to confirm.



tom said:


> Tine to add MLF!
> Nothing else needed



Culture and test kit is ordered. I ordered te 20 strip kit and 4 packs of culture 2 for now and 2 so I have them on hand. Hopefully it will ship today or tomorrow morning and I'll have on Monday so I can add the culture then. My LBS didn't have any culture.


----------



## Tom

If you are gonna do more than 4 reds with MLF culture I suggest look into VP41 which will do up to 66 gallons and is around $25.


----------



## Brintk

Tom said:


> If you are gonna do more than 4 reds with MLF culture I suggest look into VP41 which will do up to 66 gallons and is around $25.



I have had very good luck with Enoferm Beta on big, full bodied reds made from grapes. I've never tried it on juice. However. I will be trying it soon. It's $29.95 @ More Wine. (http://morewinemaking.com).


----------



## ffemt128

my stuff from finevinewines should be here on Tuesday. I guess I'll be starting my MLF then. It won't be too late will it? I imagine based on my current sg readings fermentation will have stopped by then.


----------



## Tom

No problem. keep us updated.


----------



## ffemt128

Culture should be here tomorrow after work, will work on getting that together and started before Fire practice. Looking forward to trying this out.


----------



## Wade E

It will make your wine nice and smooth compared to being harsh with a bite.


----------



## ffemt128

Wade E said:


> It will make your wine nice and smooth compared to being harsh with a bite.



Looking forward to it. I'll make sure to have culture ordered so it's ready for the next batch of juices in the fall.


----------



## Koric

Tom said:


> DO NOT add anything now. Once MLF is done add 1/4tsp of meta. DO NOT EVER add Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF. It will add a geranium taste to it



I'm still a little bit confused about MLF. I've been reading up on it but I found a couple of different way to do it. I have a Cabernet Frac and a Syrah in primary now right now, I added 2 pounds of raisins each to them. One way says to rack to to a carboy before starting MLF remove the raisins, another says to add the bacteria right to the primary and a third say to rack it with the raisins. I assume they all work but what will the effect of doing them this way be? 
I even Googled it but I came up with so many different thing it only made it more confusing.


----------



## Tom

KORIC .. WELCOME!
I have always added it to the secondary because I dont want the wine to sit on the gross lees for 2+MONTHS.
Where in NJ are you.


----------



## ffemt128

I added the culture last night. Last night and this morning I could notice the airlock bubling ever now and then. Nothing fast like a primary fermentation but apparently it started to work.


----------



## Koric

Tom said:


> KORIC .. WELCOME!
> I have always added it to the secondary because I dont want the wine to sit on the gross lees for 2+MONTHS.
> Where in NJ are you.



Thanks for the welcome Tom!
That's what was confusing me about adding it to the primary, but I wasn't sure if it needed the lees to work. 

I'm up in Moorestown.


----------



## ffemt128

I checked the readings of the MLF this morning. The Cabernet Franc initially was at about 160 it is now at 50 and the Chianti was initially around the same and is now at about 75. Will check the end of July again.


----------



## ffemt128

Based on the color of the strip from the test kit, it would appear that the MLF has completed. The color of the test strip was a light grey for both batches. Is there any other way to determine if this completed? 

I tasted both samples that I drew and the mouth feel is very smooth with no "bite" give the fact that both are only about 60 days old. I added 1 oz of oak cubes after primary fermentation and left those on the wine for approx 30 fays before removing. Both have a fairly prominent oak flavor but it is not over powering. I'm glad I didn't follow the recommendation of the manufacturer, they said 3 oz for 5 gallons for 6 weeks.

What would be the next steps for stabilizing? I know I cannot use sorbate. I was planning on racking at the end of the month and then again the end of August with botteling at the same time or the middle of Sept. I will need my carboys when Sept juices come around.

Let me know. Thanks


----------



## Brintk

If you are happy with the taste of your wine, I would say that you have the right plan for racking and bottling. Don't forget to add the sulfite when you rack at the end of the month.


----------



## ffemt128

Brintk said:


> If you are happy with the taste of your wine, I would say that you have the right plan for racking and bottling. Don't forget to add the sulfite when you rack at the end of the month.




As of now, I'm happy with the taste and feel of the wine. The oaking is where we like it (neither of us like heavy oak). I think that after aging this will end up a very fine wine in my opinion. 

Do I add the normal 1/4 tsp per 5 gallon or would I need to add more to inhibit the MLF? I'm new to both Juices and MLF so please bear with the questions.


----------



## Brintk

1/4 tsp of K-meta per 5 gallons is a good rule of thumb for a wine that is around 3.5 - 3.6 pH. However, If your ph is higher or lower than that you might want to be a little more scientific with your K-meta additions. A good source of knowledge on this subject is the following; http://www.accuvin.com/pHSO2Links.pdf

Good luck.


----------



## Tom

DO NOT ADD Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF.


----------



## ffemt128

Tom said:


> DO NOT ADD Sorbate to a wine that went thru MLF.



I'm aware of that. Just wanted to make sure there was nothing other than kmeta that needed added to inhibit further MLF.


----------



## Tom

U B fine then


----------



## ffemt128

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to like the MLF process. 

How long does the dry MLF culture last. I purchased 4 packages so I would have 2 extras for fall. It's been kept in the fridge in a ziplock bag.


----------



## Tom

there should be an EXP date in it somewhere.


----------



## ffemt128

Racked the reds yesterday. Very little sediment at bottom of carboys. I'll likely rack again the end of August or middle of Sept. I'll be needing the carboys they are in for the juice we are getting in the fall. I'll rack off the whites today and then again prior to bottling. I want to back sweeten the whites and will likely do that today as they have already been stablized with kmeta and sorbate. The reds received a dose of kmeta yesterday (I know, no sorbate for the reds due to MLF). 

Both the reds and the white will be bottled when I need the carboys for fall and will age in bottles.


----------



## djrockinsteve

I just printed out the new 2010 Regina wine list from Premiere Produce. Gotta start my list for ordering. All will be in first of September.

Prices still look good.


----------



## Tom

Whats the pricing?


----------



## djrockinsteve

Tom said:


> Whats the pricing?



Here's a few...All 6 gallon Regina buckets

Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc both $43.00
Chenin Blanc, French Colombard $40.00

Cabernet Franc, $43.00

Cab. Sauv., Nebbiolo, Syrah and Zinfandel $45.00

Chiante, Merlot, Sangiovese $44.00

All in all there are 11 Whites, 1 Rose a Grenache $40.00 and 19 Reds

Workin' on my blends. Can't wait.


----------



## jdeere5220

I'm supposed to be getting my first buckets of fresh juice in a week. The company is named "Festa Juice" and they say they have already balanced and innoculated with the appropriate yeast:

www.festajuice.com

My questions are:

- Should I add Oak when I get it home? I'm getting a Montepulciano and a Zin, both dry reds.

- I'm assuming the juice bucket doesn't come with any stabilizers or clarifiers like you get with a kit- So I'll need to pick up some sorbate and some clarifier, right?

- In general, should I treat this just like a kit that's missing everything except juice? Same process, same degassing, same stabilization, etc...?

Thanks!


----------



## Tom

- Should I add Oak when I get it home? I'm getting a Montepulciano and a Zin, both dry reds.

I like adding it in the secondays as I leave it in at least 4 weeks.

- I'm assuming the juice bucket doesn't come with any stabilizers or clarifiers like you get with a kit- So I'll need to pick up some sorbate and some clarifier, right?

Yes you will need meta, sorbate, yeast nutrient and clairifiers. I dont like they added yeast I rather add mine

- In general, should I treat this just like a kit that's missing everything except juice? Same process, same degassing, same stabilization, etc...?
Yes. But plan on bulk aging reds a year


----------



## MontyPython

Reviving an old thread, but it's that time of year again. Getting my first batch of Chilean Malbec juice this May. Malbec being one of my favs, I want it to turn out really great.

I've absorbed a good amount on the MLF process, however I wanted to confirm a few things.

1) *Is MLF the way to go with a Malbec,* or is that more suited for the Chilean whites? Was trying to follow that. IF it's a good idea, do I still primary ferment till X.XX SG reading, and then begin the MLF?

2) *Is the temp range for MLF different than regular fermentation?* My basement where I do most of this stuff is a fairly steady 65º. I'd hate to have to move it upstairs and then downstairs, over and over.

3) *Which Yeast would you recommend? *Looking for a Yeast that will bring out the character of the Malbec, accentuate some good dark cherry/blackberry notes, and solid tannins, while on the dryer side overall - I don't want it to taste like a Jolly Rancher! My experience with using EC1118 on a Carmenere juice kit were that it was a very underwhelming and 1 dimensional wine. 

4) *I've heard mixed comments about whether or not the juice is likely "balanced" when I get it. *I know my store has pH test kits, et others. But wouldn't know where to start - or at least, what I was shooting for. Most of the links in this post were broken, so any simple tips or link would be helpful to ensure I start off on the right foot. Sometimes Google sends me on quite the journey...

5) *Do you typically Oak Malbecs*, and at what point with fresh juice? during Secondary or MLF?

I'm really getting into this process, but have been somewhat disheartend by the results. Wines so far have been drinkable, but most of them lack depth. They are often very light and un-eventful. Then I pop open a $10 Malbec and it's a real treat! I know there isn't a perfect technique, but hard to tell where/what I did or didn't do during the process. So, I want to hit this one out of the park! Thanks so much for your help. 

Stephen


----------



## shoebiedoo

I don't know why no one is replying! I too seek these answers.


----------



## djrockinsteve

I have never MLF'd a wine.


----------



## rodo

> I have never MLF'd a wine.


 
Nor have I, that does not mean there are those that would not benifit from it this may be one. Also paintence (a year or more is probably in order) .


----------



## Tom

See below 



MontyPython said:


> Reviving an old thread, but it's that time of year again. Getting my first batch of Chilean Malbec juice this May. Malbec being one of my favs, I want it to turn out really great.
> 
> I've absorbed a good amount on the MLF process, however I wanted to confirm a few things.
> 
> 1) *Is MLF the way to go with a Malbec,* or is that more suited for the Chilean whites? Was trying to follow that. IF it's a good idea, do I still primary ferment till X.XX SG reading, and then begin the MLF?*Yes all ny reds go thru MLF*
> 
> 2) *Is the temp range for MLF different than regular fermentation?* My basement where I do most of this stuff is a fairly steady 65º. I'd hate to have to move it upstairs and then downstairs, over and over.*trick is keep it from temp swings figure 3 months.*
> 
> 3) *Which Yeast would you recommend? *Looking for a Yeast that will bring out the character of the Malbec, accentuate some good dark cherry/blackberry notes, and solid tannins, while on the dryer side overall - I don't want it to taste like a Jolly Rancher! My experience with using EC1118 on a Carmenere juice kit were that it was a very underwhelming and 1 dimensional wine.*I like RC212 on all most of my big reds*
> 
> 4) *I've heard mixed comments about whether or not the juice is likely "balanced" when I get it. *I know my store has pH test kits, et others. But wouldn't know where to start - or at least, what I was shooting for. Most of the links in this post were broken, so any simple tips or link would be helpful to ensure I start off on the right foot. Sometimes Google sends me on quite the journey...*Ususlly all juice is balenced*
> 
> 5) *Do you typically Oak Malbecs*, and at what point with fresh juice? during Secondary or MLF?*I like oak in all my reds like 2C If doing MLF rack @ 1.020 and add MLF I leave it 3 months ,rack and add oak*
> 
> I'm really getting into this process, but have been somewhat disheartend by the results. Wines so far have been drinkable, but most of them lack depth. They are often very light and un-eventful. Then I pop open a $10 Malbec and it's a real treat! I know there isn't a perfect technique, but hard to tell where/what I did or didn't do during the process. So, I want to hit this one out of the park! Thanks so much for your help.
> 
> Stephen


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## Runningwolf

Tom I understand some folks are starting MLF's right in the beginning of fermentation now. Have you or anyone in your club done this rather then waiting till 2/3's through it?


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## Tom

No most start toward the end of the primary


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## shoebiedoo

Can one assume these juices are already sulfited? 

Do most of you guys test at the end of the 3 months or can you just assume by tasting it's OK?


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## Julie

shoebiedoo said:


> Can one assume these juices are already sulfited?
> 
> Do most of you guys test at the end of the 3 months or can you just assume by tasting it's OK?



The juice buckets from Luva Bella's are sulfited, balanced and innoculated with yeast, they use 1118. Last spring I talked to the winemaker and he told me unless you are letting your wines age about 3 years, they really is no benefit to an MLF on the juice buckets we get from Luva Bella's.


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