# K sorbate AND K meta before bottling?



## BernardSmith (Jan 4, 2012)

Nowhere near ready to bottle but I have been reading that you should add K sorbate and Campden or K-meta before bottling. Do they work better together to inhibit yeast reproduction? Doesn't the K-meta kill the yeast?


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## robie (Jan 4, 2012)

BernardSmith said:


> Nowhere near ready to bottle but I have been reading that you should add K sorbate and Campden or K-meta before bottling. Do they work better together to inhibit yeast reproduction? Doesn't the K-meta kill the yeast?



Sorbate stops the yeast from multiplying, Kmeta stuns the yeast. Neither is intended to actually kill the yeast. Once both are added, since the yeast can't multiply (and they are not feeling too well from all the sulfite in the Kmeta), they will soon die on their own (of old age!).

You don't necessarily add the Kmeta just before bottling. Generally, it is added right after the wine is racked off from fermentation. Only if the free SO2 level is low at bottling time do you add more Kmeta. This is of course unless the instructions say otherwise.

Just follow your instructions, they should tell you when to add it.

If your wine is dry, you don't necessarily need the sorbate. Dry or not, the Kmeta is necessary, unless you are trying to make sulfite-free wine, which is very difficult for the average home wine maker.

Dry or not, if you are making wine from a kit, I would follow the instructions and add the included Kmeta and sorbate as directed.


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## BernardSmith (Jan 4, 2012)

Not making wine from a kit. Got some apple cider and got it up to an SG of about 1.080 and am working from there (now in the secondary at about 1.000 with pH of about 3.3) - I have not really thought about the sweetness yet although my plan is to ferment it to dry and then add sweetner. So... is it more important to add K-meta before bottling than K-sorbate or to add both or to add the K-sorbate. 
But you also say that K-meta only "stuns the yeast". I have been using K-meta as my sanitizer. It doesn't kill the yeast and all other bacteria that might be lurking?


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## Arne (Jan 4, 2012)

BernardSmith said:


> Not making wine from a kit. Got some apple cider and got it up to an SG of about 1.080 and am working from there (now in the secondary at about 1.000 with pH of about 3.3) - I have not really thought about the sweetness yet although my plan is to ferment it to dry and then add sweetner. So... is it more important to add K-meta before bottling than K-sorbate or to add both or to add the K-sorbate.
> But you also say that K-meta only "stuns the yeast". I have been using K-meta as my sanitizer. It doesn't kill the yeast and all other bacteria that might be lurking?



Your k-meta gives the wild yeasts and other nasties a bad time, then after waiting for 24 hours or so, you pitch the yeast in that you want to ferment with. By that time, it will have weakened enough that your yeast should take off. If you are going to use the wild yeast to ferment with, keep the k-meta away when starting. If you are going to sweeten the wine, you will probably want to hit it with k-meta and k-sorbate when it is done fermenting. Then if you are going to use a clearing agent, put that in and wait til everything clears. If it sits over 3 months or so, you will probably want to give it a little more k-meta. If you have a tester, you can check the levels, otherwise most of us just use time to figure when to add more. Keep reading on here and you will get more ideas how and when to use this stuff. Good luck with it, Arne.


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## djrockinsteve (Jan 4, 2012)

BernardSmith said:


> Nowhere near ready to bottle but I have been reading that you should add K sorbate and Campden or K-meta before bottling. Do they work better together to inhibit yeast reproduction? Doesn't the K-meta kill the yeast?



By the time bottling comes around most if not all yeast should have died off or been removed. To insure any remaining do not referment your wine add sorbate. It will prevent yeast from budding (reproducing). They will still continue to feed on any yeast and nutrients left but cannot multiply.

I always add sulfite at each racking. First rack 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons. After that just a pinch. I do random sulfite tests to see where I am and I am normally right on or real close.


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## BernardSmith (Jan 4, 2012)

@ djrockinsteve: This is really interesting - and completely new for me. Is the addition of 1/4 t sulfite per 5 gal each time you rack to minimize oxidation? How concerned should I be that I might be promoting production of hydrogen sulphide (bad egg smell) versus creating a problem of oxidization? If the acidity of the must is around 3.2 or 3.3 would that help miminize oxidation? 
@Arne: I killed the wild yeasts with K-meta and waited 24 hours before I pitched the champagne yeast (I think it was Red Star Pasteur Champagne)


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## robie (Jan 4, 2012)

BernardSmith said:


> Not making wine from a kit. Got some apple cider and got it up to an SG of about 1.080 and am working from there (now in the secondary at about 1.000 with pH of about 3.3) - I have not really thought about the sweetness yet although my plan is to ferment it to dry and then add sweetner. So... is it more important to add K-meta before bottling than K-sorbate or to add both or to add the K-sorbate.
> But you also say that K-meta only "stuns the yeast". I have been using K-meta as my sanitizer. It doesn't kill the yeast and all other bacteria that might be lurking?



If you add sugar, you must add sorbate.

A Kmeta sanitizing solution is 3 tablespoons of Kmeta per gallon of water. At that strength, it will certainly kill yeast. You put far, far less of it in your wine, so, no, it doesn't kill the yeast, it just stuns them. If sorbate is not added when back-sweetening, the yeast WILL recover from the Kmeta and start eating again.


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## djrockinsteve (Jan 4, 2012)

BernardSmith said:


> Is the addition of 1/4 t sulfite per 5 gal each time you rack to minimize oxidation?



After my musts are fully dry and I rack off of the gross lees I add 1/4 teaspoon of potassium metabisulfite to the 5 gallon carboy first, then the wine to fully incorporate it within. The k-meta (pot. meta) will cling to the oxygen molecules and slow the oxidation process down. I do fine the wine as well at this time.

For later rackings I will add just a pinch (5 gallons). Now a pinch is defined as 1/8th teaspoon, that is more than I would add, I use a good pinch between my thumb and fore finger.

By adding 1/4 teaspoon at each racking will increase your sulfite levels too high.

Do not confuse sulfite with sulfur. Having adequet amounts of sulfite in your wine and a minimal amount of air you can give your wines a great start into the fining/aging process.

To be more specific the higher the acid % in your wine the less amount of sulfite that is needed to protect the wine.

Review the tutorial section on the home page for many interesting articles regarding the wine making process.


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## djrockinsteve (Jan 4, 2012)

robie said:


> the yeast WILL recover from the Kmeta and start eating again.



This is something I have not been able to find an answer to and I don't have time to do a test.

How long is the life cycle of a yeast organism?


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## Arne (Jan 5, 2012)

djrockinsteve said:


> This is something I have not been able to find an answer to and I don't have time to do a test.
> 
> How long is the life cycle of a yeast organism?



I do not know for sure, but have found from experience they stay alive a lot longer than I thought they should. ONce in a while they get thru sulfiting and sorbating which is why we tend to say wait a week or three before bottling after stabalizing and adding sugar. Still don't know whether I had bad sorbate, did not add enough, or just a strong strain of yeast, but it is quite the suprise when you go to the cellar and corks are laying on the floor. Fortunately my cellar has an old concrete floor so the mess wasn't too bad to clean up. Arne.


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