# Put up or ? I got myself a vineyard



## NorCal (Jun 11, 2021)

I’ve lived in a community with 20 acres of grapes, which I have been an active participant in caring for and selling the 50+ tons of grapes. It is a wonderful community. However, down deep, my wife and I are more country than country club and we purchased 4 acres 5 miles away. The property will be home for our horses and it just so happened to have 200+ vines on it; equal amounts of zin, cab sauv, Syrah.
So, instead of managing a vineyard, I will now have to care for a vineyard. This season I will consider a loss as the vines look like they were pruned like a rose bush. Another chapter in my winemaking journey.


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## srcorndog (Jun 11, 2021)

Nice set up looks like the cultivated field will be planted in vines, Did your old vines not have a trellis system? How bout a ground view like a close up was the previous owner pruning for a reason?


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## crushday (Jun 11, 2021)

@NorCal - Congratulations. This is the start of a grand new adventure!!


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## sour_grapes (Jun 11, 2021)

Congrats, @NorCal ! I am sure that you will hit it out of the park, as usual.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 11, 2021)

Congrats, 20 acres to 200 vines you can do that in your sleep.


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## jswordy (Jun 11, 2021)

Wow, congratulations! Very nice layout. Looking forward to progress reports.


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## ibglowin (Jun 11, 2021)

Congrats on the new purchase!

Any place for a larger temp controlled winery/cellar?


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## Obbnw (Jun 11, 2021)

and room for more vines!

But 200 vines is 10 times more than I have and 5 times more than I think I could handle...


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## NorCal (Jun 11, 2021)

ibglowin said:


> Congrats on the new purchase!
> 
> Any place for a larger temp controlled winery/cellar?


Thanks all. The aerial shot shows the 3,000 sqft barn and the open field next to is it is a sand arena, which hadn’t been used for years, as well as a big irrigation water fed pond. The winery will be in the barn, most likely real close to the entrance. I will definitely have the space to try new things.


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## toadie (Jun 11, 2021)

Nice! Congrats! The pond will be awesome too.


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## ibglowin (Jun 11, 2021)

Looks like you have one of them fancy "cement ponds" to boot!


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## heatherd (Jun 11, 2021)

Looks great! Yay for you @NorCal !


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## mainshipfred (Jun 11, 2021)

NorCal said:


> Thanks all. The aerial shot shows the 3,000 sqft barn and the open field next to is it is a sand arena, which hadn’t been used for years, as well as a big irrigation water fed pond. The winery will be in the barn, most likely real close to the entrance. I will definitely have the space to try new things.
> View attachment 75516
> 
> View attachment 75517



Great space, a little disappointed I haven't seen any plans for the winery yet.


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## Ajmassa (Jun 11, 2021)

Incoming LLC for K&K


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## crushday (Jun 11, 2021)

@NorCal - you might consider moving the winery to the back of the building. Looking at the picture you provide and the shadows, looks like morning sun is on the back side. That’s going to be the coolest side of the building if my assumptions about the sun path are correct.


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## Bossbaby (Jun 11, 2021)

I don't feel bad for you.. JK looks like a very sweet set up, you will be going strong next year for sure, Congratulations!.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 11, 2021)

I am managing about 200 vines and I am wiped out some days. But, if the vines are outside your back door it is so easy to do a little work over time.

I am probably preaching to the choir--now is a good time to get a soil test and a petiole analysis and get your vines to a good start. 
I use A & L Western Agricultural Laboratories


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## NorCal (Jun 12, 2021)

crushday said:


> @NorCal - you might consider moving the winery to the back of the building. Looking at the picture you provide and the shadows, looks like morning sun is on the back side. That’s going to be the coolest side of the building if my assumptions about the sun path are correct.


With the stalls in the back, the horses will be occupying the back of the barn. I have a feeling that to get through the move and the upcoming hot weather, the wine box is going to make the move and be the short term solution. I’ll then see if it makes more sense to build a separate room.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2021)

I could not be happier for you, NorCal. This is what you should be doing. Down the road, when you are a 5-Star winery, we can all say, "We remember when it began."

Best of good fortune with your new adventure.


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## Kraffty (Jun 12, 2021)

What a cool situation that you've put yourself into. It certainly wasn't just luck or good fortune that got you here, more a pay off for all the work and effort you've put into the craft. Big Congrats!


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## NorCal (Jun 12, 2021)

You guys are too kind. I will say that even though I buy grapes (for the most part) from commercial vineyards, I’m still often disappointed with the fruit. Now I will only have the person in the mirror to complain to. Another shot on how close the vines are to the barn, 12 rows total.


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## Khristyjeff (Jun 15, 2021)

NorCal said:


> You guys are too kind. I will say that even though I buy grapes (for the most part) from commercial vineyards, I’m still often disappointed with the fruit. Now I will only have the person in the mirror to complain to. Another shot on how close the vines are to the barn, 12 rows total.
> View attachment 75540


Wow, that looks awesome. Best of luck to you!


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## sour_grapes (Jun 15, 2021)

It just struck me that you have come a long way from your initial Welch's Grape Juice experiments!



NorCal said:


> You guys are too kind.



I don't think so!


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## KevinL (Jun 19, 2021)

Beautiful! Congratulations!


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## NorCal (Jul 27, 2021)

The last pic of the wine box, before the move. Had a buddy with a small truck to cart the box with the doors removed. Made it safely inside the barn at the new place. Carboys lined up to rack the barrel.


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## Khristyjeff (Jul 27, 2021)

This is impressive to me. Moving big things. The shot of the truck driving away with the tall Junipers , clay tile roof and flowering shrub is so California to me. Beautiful.


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## Johnd (Jul 27, 2021)

Looks like there’s plenty of room on the farm to add some more vines,,,,,,,


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## srcorndog (Jul 27, 2021)

Nice shop did you build your own door pulls? They look real cool!


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## NorCal (Jul 27, 2021)

srcorndog said:


> Nice shop did you build your own door pulls? They look real cool!


Yes, the pulls are fashioned after our winery “ branding”, K&K for Ken and Kathi, my better for 37 years. 

A bigger look at the space. With so many moving parts, bits and pieces, I'm thinking of making some shelves with doors to hide all this stuff when not in use. With lumber prices, I'm sure it will cost $$$, but I'd like this to also be a place we can hang out, drink wine and not just a work space.


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## treesaver (Jul 28, 2021)

Did thhe mustang make the move?


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## NorCal (Jul 28, 2021)

treesaver said:


> Did thhe mustang make the move?


The GT-350 clone I built has been gone for a while, but my latest car (Sunbeam Alpine with a Ford V6) is keeping an eye on my progress at the end of the barn.


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## srcorndog (Jul 28, 2021)

Difference men and boys are the price of our toys mine are my stingrays 69 with a 454 restoring now son's 66 mustang 302 built love our builds


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## treesaver (Jul 29, 2021)

Yeah, I got three projects. All have been sitting after I moved here. Had too much to do to get back to them. A 32 chevy, ground up build is about 60% done, a 40 chevy PU, and a 60 chevy 2dr station wagon, that I used to drag race fourty years ago. Don't think I'll live long enough to finish them, at this rate!


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## mainshipfred (Jul 29, 2021)

NorCal said:


> Yes, the pulls are fashioned after our winery “ branding”, K&K for Ken and Kathi, my better for 37 years.
> 
> A bigger look at the space. With so many moving parts, bits and pieces, I'm thinking of making some shelves with doors to hide all this stuff when not in use. With lumber prices, I'm sure it will cost $$$, but I'd like this to also be a place we can hang out, drink wine and not just a work space.
> View attachment 77066



With all the potential for that space will you be keeping the original cold box for sentimental reasons?


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## Old Corker (Jul 29, 2021)

I am so envious of your setup. I'm curious if you're going to build a separation between the horse quarters and the wine making operation. Our horses generate a lot of dust and other stuff I would want to keep separate from the wine making.


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## NorCal (Jul 29, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> With all the potential for that space will you be keeping the original cold box for sentimental reasons?


 I'll see how it goes. It wouldn't take much to just build another room and have the AC unit direct the hot air outside. But right now, the daily temps are over 100 degrees, so I couldn't skip a day without the box and 75 gallons of wine.


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## NorCal (Jul 29, 2021)

Old Corker said:


> I am so envious of your setup. I'm curious if you're going to build a separation between the horse quarters and the wine making operation. Our horses generate a lot of dust and other stuff I would want to keep separate from the wine making.


Very good point. The Mrs. has asked the same thing, so I don't disturb her horses and chickens with the stuff I will be doing. The horse(s) will not be moved to the property until after the grape season, but I could see that this is something I need to think about.


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## NorCal (Nov 21, 2021)

Since it is post harvest and the vineyard is waiting to be pruned, I‘m focused on the other areas of the new place. Rehabbing a dormant arena was one of our priorities that took a big step forward this weekend.








Arena sand







youtube.com


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## BMarNJ (Nov 21, 2021)

How wonderful and exciting! Keep us posted every step of the way. Congratulations!


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## NorCal (Jan 10, 2022)

Arena is in…7 dump truck loads!



Finished the unsympathetic pruning of the 172 vines. I would consider it a vineyard recovery vs a pruning. Not concerned about yield next year. Very aggressive in getting the structure of the vines right And in some cases, starting over.


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## GSMChris (Jan 10, 2022)

Hi NorCal 

The arena looks fantastic- is that a DG base under the sand? I have a neighbor with a small arena who really struggles with weed growth. I’m thinking that he needs to put down some kind of “sterile” base and then put the sand/soft dirt on top. Anyway, while off topic, appreciate whatever tips you might have.

The vines certainly got a haircut - and it was long overdue. You might be reducing yield this year but it will definitely pay off in the long run. And the vines may surprise you given more roots supporting fewer canes.


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## NorCal (Jan 10, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Hi NorCal
> 
> The arena looks fantastic- is that a DG base under the sand? I have a neighbor with a small arena who really struggles with weed growth. I’m thinking that he needs to put down some kind of “sterile” base and then put the sand/soft dirt on top. Anyway, while off topic, appreciate whatever tips you might have.
> 
> The vines certainly got a haircut - and it was long overdue. You might be reducing yield this year but it will definitely pay off in the long run. And the vines may surprise you given more roots supporting fewer canes.



Three owners ago put in the arena and has been dormant for 8-10 years. I was able to contact her with regard to the footing. They had it professionally done. It has a thick DG base and sloped 1 degree, which was thoroughly tested with all the rain we've had lately. I did my best to scrape any area that had weeds, prior to laying down the sand. The weed area was one section (10% of the total area) but undoubtably I will be battling weeds in the spring. Hopefully it will be confined to the one area and will be minimal.

It was frustrating pruning the vines as I was constantly mentally compromising between aesthetics of the vines in our front yard, building a foundation for the future and wanting to get some fruit this year.


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## GSMChris (Jan 11, 2022)

Thanks for the info on the arena - I’ll share with my neighbor.

I totally understand the mental struggle on the pruning. For me, it’s pretty much the same struggle with all pruning - balancing competing objectives while trying to avoid making a mistake. I’m currently avoiding looking at my olive trees which need pruning - they are both a centerpiece in the landscaping and a producer of olives for oil. Well, those objectives are definitely in conflict!


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## NorCal (Jan 31, 2022)

After a very unsympathetic pruning, I had huge piles of clippings. The below is 1 of 3 and this was the smallest. A neighbor had a burn pile going and invited me to add my vines. One of the benefits of living in the more rural parts. Pruning and clean up is done!


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## NorCal (Feb 5, 2022)

A good view of the vines where I’ll be trying to get a new cordon started


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## Joe B. (Feb 6, 2022)

That sure looks like a lot of work but I am sure it will pay off in the long run. Not to add to your plate but you may want to consider sealing your big cuts to help prevent Eutypa ( Dead Arm) from infecting the vine. It looks like you had to make quite a few.


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## Snafflebit (Feb 7, 2022)

Yup, I have had to chop several Cab vines back to the head and start new cordons. In the long run it will be for the best. Big cuts that I make during rainy season I seal with Doc Farwell's seal and heal mixed with 5% Boric acid by weight (roach powder) There are commercial listed products like B-Lock vine seal, but I cannot find it easily. I save big cuts for right after harvest when the weather is dry.


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## Snafflebit (Feb 7, 2022)

I also have started to leave an extra cane at the bottom of very long spurs so that I can bring down the spur length. These long spurs get chopped after harvest as well. lYour trellis does not look high and that starts to eat into cane length.


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## NorCal (Feb 9, 2022)

The Mrs and I decided that the vineyard/barn entrance needed a focal point. I bought a two barrel rack on Craigslist for $40 (ended up being a new unit!) and I’m sanding and uv protecting 3 barrels. I’ve already cut the level pad and 1 inch stepping stones for the rack to sit on. I should have the barrels done during the week and the rack set up (less logos) over the weekend.


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## GSMChris (Feb 9, 2022)

Great idea!!! And what a great buy on the rack


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## NorCal (Feb 10, 2022)

Put them in place last night. It will look much better when the weeds around the pad grow back and the vines are green and full. I may opt for some flowers of something to cover the front and sides of the rack. We will also be adding logos to the barrel heads. 
I often leave the gates open when I'm working at the barn or vineyard. I've already decided to give a bottle of wine to the first random person that drives in and asks if we do wine tasting, thinking we are a commercial winery.


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## ChuckD (Feb 10, 2022)

NorCal said:


> I've already decided to give a bottle of wine to the first random person that drives in and asks if we do wine tasting, thinking we are a commercial winery.


What was your address again?


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## Joe B. (Feb 11, 2022)

Your winery log might look nice out there.


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## NorCal (Mar 14, 2022)

Bud break!


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## ibglowin (Mar 14, 2022)

Always a pretty sight!



NorCal said:


> Bud break!
> 
> View attachment 85738
> 
> View attachment 85739


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## Mcjeff (Mar 14, 2022)

Looking good!


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## NorCal (Mar 16, 2022)

Went through the irrigation. 172 vines and around 70 drip locations needed to be replaced. It was mixed between clogged and spraying.


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## Joe B. (Mar 17, 2022)

Looks nice but seems a little early, you must be at a much lower elevation than me. I still have to get mine pruned it's been delayed due to an injury this year. I guess I better get on it. The picture really shows the amount of work you had to put into the pruning.


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## NorCal (Apr 25, 2022)

Did the second spray of the season. Looks a little like breaking bad in the vineyard.


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## Denden5136 (May 18, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I am managing about 200 vines and I am wiped out some days. But, if the vines are outside your back door it is so easy to do a little work over time.
> 
> I am probably preaching to the choir--now is a good time to get a soil test and a petiole analysis and get your vines to a good start.
> I use A & L Western Agricultural Laboratories


Hi Snafflebit,
Just curious, what was the charge for the petiole test? Did you do it a few times over the season or just once? Did you do nutritional/mineral analysis or also virus testing?


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## Snafflebit (May 19, 2022)

Denden5136 said:


> Hi Snafflebit,
> Just curious, what was the charge for the petiole test? Did you do it a few times over the season or just once? Did you do nutritional/mineral analysis or also virus testing?


Sorry @NorCal, no thread hijack intended. 

The analysis was $40 per sample, I tested three sites and it was insightful. There are varying levels of analysis and cost associated. A&L analyzes soil, water, plant and food agriculture products. I do not know of a place that would test for virus and I imagine it would be very expensive. 

I do not have a need to test regularly, mainly the N was low. But if I corrected a rare deficency, I would go back a year later and test for change.


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## NorCal (Jul 1, 2022)

It’s been a year since we moved to the property. The vineyard and the pond really struggled. The vineyard is improved with pruning, suckering and spraying. The pond had a single aerator, the manufacturer of the air pump said it could support 5. Hopefully this addition will reduce the algea growth and create a healthier environment for the fish and turtles that call it home.


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## mainshipfred (Jul 1, 2022)

NorCal said:


> It’s been a year since we moved to the property. The vineyard and the pond really struggled. The vineyard is improved with pruning, suckering and spraying. The pond had a single aerator, the manufacturer of the air pump said it could support 5. Hopefully this addition will reduce the algea growth and create a healthier environment for the fish and turtles that call it home. View attachment 90145



I'd really like to see fountains please.


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## NorCal (Oct 6, 2022)

Looking at these pictures, it seemed so long ago. So much has changed. The season is done. Overall I would say it was a solid "B" year. Some mildew, which pretty much wiped out the previous year's crop when we had just bought the property. The Zin came in good and made 15 gallons of Rose. The Cab Sauv quality was there but only yielded 5 gallons. The Sirah quality was the best and yielded 10 gallons. Thirty gallons net from 178 vines, right around 500 pounds of grapes is a low yield. A lot of the vines didn't product grapes, due to my unsympathetic pruning to get the overall structure back, so I guess it is to be expected.

I did 100% of the work (besides harvest) on the vineyard; irrigation fixes, wire fixes, pruning, suckering, tying, spraying, mowing, weed wacking, hedging, fruit drop. It was a lot of effort, but it came in waves, so manageable with my lifestyle. I like the aesthetic of the vineyard, but the return for the amount of work it was vs. what good commercial grapes can be purchased for is not there. However, like any hobby, if you enjoy doing it, then your time and effort is discounted.

The place has also changed; the arena is finished, fencing up and we now have 3 horses keeping us company.


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## Snafflebit (Oct 6, 2022)

It is a dream of mine to step into the yard and do pruning and spraying whenever I feel like it, rather than load up the truck and drive to the job. Almost made that happen in Livermore this year but backed out on a deal to buy a piece of land. Maybe eventually.


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## crushday (Oct 6, 2022)

It's a satisfying summation of over a years worth of work - undoubtedly, your satisfaction and yields will increase. I hope the former at a quicker pace...

You've worked hard and it shows. Great job, Ken.


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## VinesnBines (Oct 6, 2022)

I'll agree that it is easier and cheaper to buy grapes but the hours in the vineyard is time well spent. I love all the seasons and every weather.


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## ChuckD (Oct 6, 2022)

NorCal said:


> Looking at these pictures, it seemed so long ago. So much has changed. The season is done. Overall I would say it was a solid "B" year. Some mildew, which pretty much wiped out the previous year's crop when we had just bought the property. The Zin came in good and made 15 gallons of Rose. The Cab Sauv quality was there but only yielded 5 gallons. The Sirah quality was the best and yielded 10 gallons. Thirty gallons net from 178 vines, right around 500 pounds of grapes is a low yield. A lot of the vines didn't product grapes, due to my unsympathetic pruning to get the overall structure back, so I guess it is to be expected.
> 
> I did 100% of the work (besides harvest) on the vineyard; irrigation fixes, wire fixes, pruning, suckering, tying, spraying, mowing, weed wacking, hedging, fruit drop. It was a lot of effort, but it came in waves, so manageable with my lifestyle. I like the aesthetic of the vineyard, but the return for the amount of work it was vs. what good commercial grapes can be purchased for is not there. However, like any hobby, if you enjoy doing it, then your time and effort is discounted.
> 
> ...


After talking to friends who keep horses, they may be more work than the vineyard!

And I agree. It is after all a hobby, not a job.


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## NorCal (Oct 6, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> After talking to friends who keep horses, they may be more work than the vineyard!
> 
> And I agree. It is after all a hobby, not a job.



The horses are the wife's hobby. They are a lot of work, without the seasonal breaks!


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## GSMChris (Oct 7, 2022)

I’d say your B grade is a little harsh. The overall progress from where you started to where you ended was deserving of a more generous grade! From re reading the thread it seems to me that this year wasn’t really about grape yield but more about restoring the vines for future years. 

Regardless - here’s a toast to you and your wife for (to quote my wife) “making the place your own”


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## Joe B. (Oct 8, 2022)

My vineyard is about the same size as yours and the yields will vary by variety and season but once you get all the vines producing and with the proper nutrition you should easily double the amount of wine you produced this year. That's is even with dropping clusters. For what you had to deal with and for allowing us to follow along I give you a A+.


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## NorCal (Oct 19, 2022)

Overall, the weather in our Sacramento area is quite good, but the summers have 3-5 weeks where it is brutally hot. 100 degree days are not uncommon and 90+ degrees for a month on both sides of the peak of the summer. The barn shelters the sun, wind and rain, but the inside temps mirror the ambient temps. I’ve had a search on Craigslist for a Portacool for 6 months and one popped up today. A 5 year old, original owner, large 36” fan model for $350, a steep discount over its original $2,500 sticker. I was able to execute the deal the same day and have a new addition to the barn.


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## NorCal (Oct 20, 2022)

Since the Portacool is a pretty simple device, I decided to take it apart and really see what I purchased. You just never know with these bargain Craigslist purchases. The unit has 3 systems without any safety interlocks. 

*Fan*: is a cord, switch and motor. The fan is tight, motor ($500) runs strong with no sign of bearing noise, belt is in good shape. 
*Fill*: a hose can hook to the input and it has a valve with a float ($40) to turn it off. Will need to check the operation before I put it away for the winter. I may also add a drain plug...I can't believe it doesn't have one.
*Evap cooling*: consists of a sump pump ($250), through a knob to adjust the flow, going to a spray bar, which is there to keep the media ($500) hydrated. While I verified the pump turned on before I bought it, I decided to remove and clean the lines and spray bar as there were a lot of dirt on the bottom of the tank. I discovered the spray bar ($40) had been replaced and was pretty clogged with dirt. Also the media looks well used and has hard water deposits on 15% of the media surface. If I replaced the spray bar and media ($540) would get in full operational state. Still money ahead if I do end up dong that. However, if I get 85% efficiency, I'll run it as is next season and see how it works out.



On a hot summer day in our area, this is what I can expect:

Fan moves 10,000 CFM, suppose to be good enough to cool 2500 sqft

100 degrees inlet temp, and 76 degree output temp (maybe closer to 80 degrees with the current media)


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## crushday (Oct 20, 2022)

Nice find, @NorCal - that last picture in post #72 looks like my original widescreen projection TV from the 90's! Oh man, the Seahawks never looked so good!


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## stickman (Oct 22, 2022)

@NorCal You may want to seriously consider that drain with a valve. This unit operates just like an industrial cooling tower (I have direct experience) which requires some water to be continuously drained during operation. Bleeding some water continuously, or at least periodically, allows you to control the mineral content in the reservoir, otherwise everything will quickly become fouled.


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## Snafflebit (Oct 28, 2022)

Swamp coolers work great in California. But they require regular maintenance because of our hard water. The wood eventually needs replacing but it can last years. Maybe a CLR soak will remove the crust. $350 is a deal if you are handy. Put it someplace with easy access. I have repaired swamp coolers on the roof, not fun.


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