# Starting a new vineyard



## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

Hi All:

I'm a new member here and, as I said in my introductory post, my wife and I are putting in a hobby vineyard at our house near Paso Robles. The vineyard will be a total of eight-tenths of an acre in size on a north facing gentle slope. We are intending to grow GSM plus some Zin - about 500 vines in all. 

We've literally just broken ground - the massive tractor ripped the soil 5 feet deep breaking up decades of compacted and sun baked clay. I couldn't get a shovel more than 2-3 inches into the soil previously. We've tested the soil and other than being acidic, it mostly just needs organic matter - aka compost. 

A storm is here today - but once it goes away, the plan is to till in dolomitic lime and compost and let the rains soak it in. 

Then it will be time to build the trellis system and wait for vines to arrive - probably in March. 

I plan to keep you posted on this thread - and to ask lots of questions as the project progresses.


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## ibglowin (Dec 13, 2021)

Looking forward to your progress. Make sure to post pics!


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## sour_grapes (Dec 13, 2021)

Welcome to WMT!


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

A few photos of the first stages of the project....

The first thing we had to do is mark out the edges of the vineyard with paint so the 811 dig guys could give us their blessing. Well, white paint didn't show - so I used green... mistake #1 of many to follow...


The white flags placated the powers that be and we got permission to dig....


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

The next shot shows a wide perspective of the land where the vineyard will be going




The vineyard is going to go from white fence to white fence (minus a 30 foot buffer on either side for trucks etc.) Along the back, where you see the commercial vineyard, there will be a 50 foot space as there is an underground utility back there.

The fence on the right is roughly South. The left fence is obviously North and the picture is facing East. As you can see, there is a slope going from the high point in the South East corner to the North West corner.


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

This 80,000 pound beast was what showed up to rip the soil...

For scale, that is an F250 or 350 to the right. 14 foot wide blade. Roughly 14 feet tall too... Spike in back is 6 feet tall. We ripped to 5 feet so they moved the pin up one hole.


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## ibglowin (Dec 13, 2021)

Nice looking piece of property. 500 vines = 500G of wine each year. What are you plans for the fruit? Will you make wine or sell some grapes and keep some for yourself?


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

The beast in action




Spikes fully buried


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

ibglowin said:


> Nice looking piece of property. 500 vines = 500G of wine each year. What are you plans for the fruit? Will you make wine or sell some grapes and keep some for yourself?


Thank you.

So the plan is to sell some grapes and keep some to make wine myself. Several of my neighbors (not the commercial vineyard just regular home owners) already do this.

The commercial vineyard is 100+ acres and roughly 70 years old. They produce an amazing amount of fruit each year.


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

The operator ripped vineyard two directions - first the long way, going North South on a six foot interval. Then going the short way, east west, on three foot spacing between spikes.

Following the ripping exercise, he told me that we had about 6 inches of crust, then 4 feet of loamy clay and then the last foot was pretty solid clay.

The next step was to do a soil test. So I dug two holes, three feet deep, taking a sample off the side at 12, 24 and 36 inches. The samples from the same level were blended together (e.g. the 36 inch samples dumped into one bucket) - and a quart sized sample was pulled out. I mailed all three samples off to a lab in Napa Crop Care Associates who very promptly responded with a report of the soil analysis and, most importantly, what to do about it. Thus the need to add lime and compost.

And that brings you up to date. Next steps are to order the vines, till in the amendments, and install the trellis system.


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## ibglowin (Dec 13, 2021)

Will you try and plant this coming Spring?


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## GSMChris (Dec 13, 2021)

ibglowin said:


> Will you try and plant this coming Spring?


Yes, the plan is to plant in March / April 2022.

I'll be putting in the order for the vines later this week - just trying to decide on root stocks as small orders get what's left over and the "ideal" variety isn't always available.


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## ChuckD (Dec 13, 2021)

Very nice. I’m sitting here trying to decide where to put my backyard vineyard with 12 inches of snow on the ground. I only have 24 vines on order but plan on preparing for 50 or so. A neighbor rents my crop land so I’ll make a deal with him to rip and disk the area this spring.


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## VinesnBines (Dec 14, 2021)

Very nice. 

I'm stringing trellis wire this week. We have done everything with the four person crew, husband, me, myself and I, so progress is slow but it is starting to look like a vineyard. The catch wires are going in this week and over the holidays. I still have posts to set and prepare for the next quarter acre planting. I hope to square up the block. When we get the fence rows cleared, we will start a new block or blocks.
We can expand to the left of the picture after some excavation. There is an open field to the left and another 4 acres of an old apple orchard to clean out.


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## Joe B. (Dec 14, 2021)

You should not have a problem getting the vines you want back when I put my vineyard in it was a 50 vine minimum per clone/rootstock combination. What state are you located in? You are about to start a very rewarding and labor intensive hobby.


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## Joe B. (Dec 14, 2021)

Missed that your are in Paso, just having my first cup of coffee. I'm also in California. I used Vintage Nurseries ( Now Wonderful) and Novavine. Nova was more expensive at the time but had some clones I wanted. Your in an area where you should be able to get plenty of free advice from Professionals though some of it may be contradictory. The pros seem more than willing to help us hobby guys out with information. I guess because we share the same passion. Jim's Supply in Bakersfield will beat everyone on Trellis systems pricing. They make it right there and sell it wholesale back when I bought mine 13 years ago.


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## VinesnBines (Dec 14, 2021)

I suggest you order soon because vines are now in short supply. I could not get the rootstock or varieties I wanted back in September. Time have changed! In 2019 I put in my vine order in late January and had everything available. I'm preordering for 2023. Maybe Wonderful Nurseries is doing better.


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## GSMChris (Dec 14, 2021)

Joe B. said:


> Missed that your are in Paso, just having my first cup of coffee. I'm also in California. I used Vintage Nurseries ( Now Wonderful) and Novavine. Nova was more expensive at the time but had some clones I wanted. Your in an area where you should be able to get plenty of free advice from Professionals though some of it may be contradictory. The pros seem more than willing to help us hobby guys out with information. I guess because we share the same passion. Jim's Supply in Bakersfield will beat everyone on Trellis systems pricing. They make it right there and sell it wholesale back when I bought mine 13 years ago.


The professionals have been great and very generous with their time and suggestions although sometimes confusing!!!!!

I'm looking at Novavine, Wonderful and Sunridge based on recommendations from both professional and hobbyists.

Good to know on Jim's supply - will definitely get a quote once I better know what I need.


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## GSMChris (Dec 14, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> I suggest you order soon because vines are now in short supply. I could not get the rootstock or varieties I wanted back in September. Time have changed! In 2019 I put in my vine order in late January and had everything available. I'm preordering for 2023. Maybe Wonderful Nurseries is doing better.


I'm putting together the order this afternoon for tomorrow - thanks for the heads up!!!


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## Nebbiolo020 (Dec 16, 2021)

GSMChris said:


> Hi All:
> 
> I'm a new member here and, as I said in my introductory post, my wife and I are putting in a hobby vineyard at our house near Paso Robles. The vineyard will be a total of eight-tenths of an acre in size on a north facing gentle slope. We are intending to grow GSM plus some Zin - about 500 vines in all.
> 
> ...


You live in a fantastic area for a vineyard, I’ve worked at wineries in Paso Robles. I also buy some of my grapes for the wines I make myself from Paso Robles, Zinfandel is a particular favorite of mine.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Dec 16, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> I suggest you order soon because vines are now in short supply. I could not get the rootstock or varieties I wanted back in September. Time have changed! In 2019 I put in my vine order in late January and had everything available. I'm preordering for 2023. Maybe Wonderful Nurseries is doing better.


I have no issues ordering from major vine growers, I put in a order for more vines for next year.


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## VinesnBines (Dec 16, 2021)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> I have no issues ordering from major vine growers, I put in a order for more vines for next year.


Who are you ordering from? I'm on the East Coast and use Double A. They have been fantastic but inundated with orders. Fortunately they realize the problem and have encouraged customers to pre-order for 2023 and beyond. They are the major producer on the East Coast. When they say vines will be shipped on Monday and arrive on Wednesday, they are right on the money.


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## GSMChris (Dec 16, 2021)

My order went in yesterday - just waiting on confirmation... I'll post specifics once confirmed.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Dec 16, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> Who are you ordering from? I'm on the East Coast and use Double A. They have been fantastic but inundated with orders. Fortunately they realize the problem and have encouraged customers to pre-order for 2023 and beyond. They are the major producer on the East Coast. When they say vines will be shipped on Monday and arrive on Wednesday, they are right on the money.


I’m west coast


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## GSMChris (Dec 30, 2021)

So I officially completed my order just now, sending off the down payment and signed contracts.

My order was:

Dormant Plants:
200 Primitivo 3.1 Clone on 1103P rootstock (note Primitivo is genetically the same as Zinfandel)
125 Grenache - 362.1 Clone on 3309C rootstock
75 Mourvedre - 1069.1 Clone on 3309C rootstock
105 Syrah - 479 Clone on 3309C rootstock

Green Plants (because I bought all they had of the dormant)
20 Syrah - 479 Clone on 3309C rootstock

Boy are there a lot of choices to make between rootstocks and clones. The one you might be wondering about - the Primitivo/Zin was had to be on a different rootstock as it wasn't available on 3309 and this was my best remaining choice. 

Now back to watching soil dry. We have had just over 9 inches of rain since we ripped November 13th - and as a result you can't even walk on the soil let alone drive a tractor on it. The next two weeks are supposed to be better so I am hoping to be able to till in lime and compost sometime during this window of time.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Dec 30, 2021)

GSMChris said:


> So I officially completed my order just now, sending off the down payment and signed contracts.
> 
> My order was:
> 
> ...


1103 p will grow in any soil and is heavily resistant to drought. Great general purpose rootstock. Also primitivo and zin are genetically the same but the characteristics of primitivo are not the same wines made from primitivo actually tend to be less intense and less powerful than Zinfandel think of it as a weaker clone of Zinfandel with less tannins and acidity and etc. 

I consider primitivo to be the lesser clone.


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## Joe B. (Dec 31, 2021)

I have 1103P rootstock and it has very high vigor with my soil conditions and I now only water to protect the fruit from heat spells after veraison and after harvest so I am almost dry farming it. The 3309C I have is a moderate grower but will need more water than the 1103P. I have 3309C on some Grenache and at my site it really is a good match. I would recommend getting local advice on spacing of the 1103P with the clone you have and your soil type. I also grow Zin and love it, but it ripens unevenly and some years rot is a real issue which has not been with any of my other varieties. I don't grow Primitivo but know those who do and they don't have the rot problems Zin can present and the bunches ripen more evenly. I also prefer Zin over Primitivo but have tasted some very nice and balanced wines made from the grape when it is not dominated by high alcohols. With the different varieties you have you also will have good options for blending.


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## ibglowin (Dec 31, 2021)

California thanks you for bringing the rain!



GSMChris said:


> Now back to watching soil dry. We have had just over 9 inches of rain since we ripped November 13th - and as a result you can't even walk on the soil let alone drive a tractor on it.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Dec 31, 2021)

Joe B. said:


> I have 1103P rootstock and it has very high vigor with my soil conditions and I now only water to protect the fruit from heat spells after veraison and after harvest so I am almost dry farming it. The 3309C I have is a moderate grower but will need more water than the 1103P. I have 3309C on some Grenache and at my site it really is a good match. I would recommend getting local advice on spacing of the 1103P with the clone you have and your soil type. I also grow Zin and love it, but it ripens unevenly and some years rot is a real issue which has not been with any of my other varieties. I don't grow Primitivo but know those who do and they don't have the rot problems Zin can present and the bunches ripen more evenly. I also prefer Zin over Primitivo but have tasted some very nice and balanced wines made from the grape when it is not dominated by high alcohols. With the different varieties you have you also will have good options for blending.


Yeah, 1103p will have deep roots, and is prone to growing lots of little shoots that need to be trimmed and is very vigorous anything grown on it tends to produce a lot of vegetation and be quite vigorous so you will need to control yield to get quality wine. I have vines planted on 1103p that are 3 feet between vine and 6 feet between rows and that forces them to compete and helps slow down excessive vegetation.

I have a lot of experience working with Zinfandel, particularly old vine Zinfandel, as well as Syrah, Grenache,Mourvèdre,Roussane,Marsanne and Grenache blanc.
Zin will depending on the clone ripen unevenly and that’s okay it helps to balance the acidity as Zinfandel tends to be lower in acid, you will also get raisins with Zinfandel which help to boost the sugar as when you do a soak prior to fermentation Zinfandel can see a increase of 2-3 brix regularly due to sugars leeching out of the raisins. Keep this in mind when harvesting as if you pick with too high a brix you can get a stuck fermentation due to alcohol. Just some advice for working with Zinfandel. You will get better wines including 50% raisins in your total fruit volume, Zinfandel also benefits from a cold soak because the skins are very thin and don’t contribute a lot of color so you need to soak to get good color.


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## GSMChris (Jan 1, 2022)

ibglowin said:


> California thanks you for bringing the rain!



If I had only known this was all it would take!

The East coasters are probably laughing about nine inches of rain as being a problem… but our average annual rainfall is 18 inches - and that’s normally in Jan Feb and March. So getting half of the annual rainfall in November and December is really odd.

I took a walk yesterday around the vineyard - the ripped soil is starting to dry up - at least the top inch or two. The good news is that there weren’t any muddy streaks leaving the vineyard - so no runoff.

The ground around the vineyard is still a thin sheet of water from the uphill neighbors. That top layer is just solid baked hardpan and the water just runs along, not soaking in. At some point, I may put in a drain pipe to intercept that water and move it away from the vineyard.

I hope you all have a great New Years Day!


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## GSMChris (Jan 1, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Yeah, 1103p will have deep roots, and is prone to growing lots of little shoots that need to be trimmed and is very vigorous anything grown on it tends to produce a lot of vegetation and be quite vigorous so you will need to control yield to get quality wine. I have vines planted on 1103p that are 3 feet between vine and 6 feet between rows and that forces them to compete and helps slow down excessive vegetation.



Re rootstock - 1103P‘s vigor was one of my concerns with using it - that and it’s not a perfect match for low ph soil. I’m amending with lime but you never know exactly where the ph will end up. The 3309 does better with the low ph soil and has less vigor - so was my first choice. More water isn’t much of an issue - I’ve got a very strong well and solar panels so I can pretty much water as needed.

I’m planning to plant with 12 foot aisles and 6 feet between vines. I will have to play with vine spacing a bit as each row is a different length. The West side end posts will be square to the fence but the east side end posts will be at a diagonal parallel to the East fence as my lot is really far from square. So the uphill rows (south side) will be about 170 feet long and the northern most rows about 120 feet. The Zin/primitivo vines will be on the South side - so in the longer rows. when the time comes, I’ll play with the plastic forks and see if I can tighten things up a bit.

Re the Zin/primitivo discussion, I’ll chat with some neighbors and commercial wineries and get more data. I have to live with these choices for a long time so would rather get it right the first time. Thanks for the input.

Regarding uneven ripening of Zin, I’ve noticed that my neighbor with the 100 plus acres of Zin picks their vineyard multiple times. The same vine may get picked as many as three times. Perhaps that is one way, in a large scale vineyard, to deal with the problem. I have definitely seen my home batches of Zin have 3 and even once a 4 point climb in brix after the crush. it did eventually finish primary but it was a challenge. But that’s a topic for another thread.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Jan 7, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Re rootstock - 1103P‘s vigor was one of my concerns with using it - that and it’s not a perfect match for low ph soil. I’m amending with lime but you never know exactly where the ph will end up. The 3309 does better with the low ph soil and has less vigor - so was my first choice. More water isn’t much of an issue - I’ve got a very strong well and solar panels so I can pretty much water as needed.
> 
> I’m planning to plant with 12 foot aisles and 6 feet between vines. I will have to play with vine spacing a bit as each row is a different length. The West side end posts will be square to the fence but the east side end posts will be at a diagonal parallel to the East fence as my lot is really far from square. So the uphill rows (south side) will be about 170 feet long and the northern most rows about 120 feet. The Zin/primitivo vines will be on the South side - so in the longer rows. when the time comes, I’ll play with the plastic forks and see if I can tighten things up a bit.
> 
> ...


Yeah I would recommend talking to commercial growers and seeing what they think would grow best where you are. Getting it right when you plant your vines is important.


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## justsgm (Jan 28, 2022)

Hi, I'm looking to start a small vineyard of about 2 acres. Can anyone refer me to a consultant that can help design a trellis system and advice on rootstock selection. This is in northern New Jersey.


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## GSMChris (Jan 30, 2022)

justsgm said:


> Hi, I'm looking to start a small vineyard of about 2 acres. Can anyone refer me to a consultant that can help design a trellis system and advice on rootstock selection. This is in northern New Jersey.



Hi JustGSM - I'd suggest posting this as an standalone thread with a title like - looking for a vineyard consultant in northern NJ. I am afraid you will just get buried in this thread...


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## BigH (Feb 10, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> We've tested the soil and other than being acidic, it mostly just needs organic matter - aka compost.



How much OM did you measure in your soil?

H


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## GSMChris (Feb 11, 2022)

Hi there:

We dug two trenches, roughly 40 inches deep. We then took scrapings from both sides of each trench at the 12, 24, and 36 inch level. the 12 inch samples from the two trenches were mixed together, 24s together etc.

OM level at 12 inch level was 1.9%, 24” 1.0 and 36” 0.7. Recommended action was to add 5 tons of compost per acre - which in my case converts to 4 tons as the vineyard is about 0.8 acres. They also suggested cover cropping and/or compost/manure be applied annually to make up for the natural loss of 1-1.5% annually due to decomposition.

btw - compost is sold by the yard not by weight here. and, or course, what it weighs depends upon how wet it is and what materials were used in making the compost..So, advice I was given was to assume 800 lbs per yard on the compost. Might be more, might be less but that’s close enough.


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## BigH (Feb 12, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> They also suggested ... and/or compost/manure be applied annually



My advice is to hold off on this annual recommendation until you observe the growth of your vines. Too much OM and nitrogen can cause excessive vigor. The ideal range for OM in a vineyard is 2-3% from soil samples taken between 6 and 8 inches. Your 1.9% at 12 inches doesn't seem too bad. Your initial amendment plus what you get from the cover crop might last quite a few years as you get the vineyard established. It is wise to repeat soil tests around year 3 or 4 (don't need to dig a 3 foot trench for those)

OM drops off quickly with depth, typically following a sideways exponential or S curve.

Good luck.
H


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## CortneyD (Feb 12, 2022)

I'm in Wisconsin so I have no idea (specifically) what California soils are like, but is it common to amend the soil for wine grapes? Will you continue to amend after the initial application?


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## Joe B. (Feb 12, 2022)

I would not do anything to encourage vigor with the 1103P rootstock. I'm no pro and don't know what your OM should be but I know 1103P and it grows like a weed.


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## GSMChris (Feb 12, 2022)

The existing nitrogen levels are low to deficient (NO3-N 3.8). 

The soil report suggests just the compost for the first year. Then some NPK fertilizer for year two then retest with tissue analysis to see what the plants are actually getting.


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## GSMChris (Feb 12, 2022)

CortneyD said:


> I'm in Wisconsin so I have no idea (specifically) what California soils are like, but is it common to amend the soil for wine grapes? Will you continue to amend after the initial application?



What I have been told is that the limestone should be a one time thing to adjust the Ph. Most people in Paso Robles have to adjust their Ph the other way (alkaline soil) and use sulfur which apparently is a multi year process.

Other amendments aren't unusual - compost is pretty normal or gypsum if you have heavy clay.

I see virtually all growers here adding compost at the end of the season. Cover crops are also pretty normal - usually some combination of things like barley, bell's beans, crimson clover.


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## CortneyD (Feb 12, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> What I have been told is that the limestone should be a one time thing to adjust the Ph. Most people in Paso Robles have to adjust their Ph the other way (alkaline soil) and use sulfur which apparently is a multi year process.
> 
> Other amendments aren't unusual - compost is pretty normal or gypsum if you have heavy clay.
> 
> I see virtually all growers here adding compost at the end of the season. Cover crops are also pretty normal - usually some combination of things like barley, bell's beans, crimson clover.


Cover crops totally make sense but I had no idea vineyards were amended! Learn something new every day- thanks for sharing!


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## BigH (Feb 13, 2022)

CortneyD said:


> ... is it common to amend the soil for wine grapes? Will you continue to amend after the initial application?



Potassium, phosphorus and many other nutrients have poor mobility in soil, so if you don't fix them before planting, you are going to have a difficult time trying to add them later. My soil was low on phosphorus when I planted my vineyard. I was told to apply phosphorus only, and disc it in as deep as I could. Finding phosphorus only fertilizer was a bit of a challenge.

Nitrogen's mobility depends on the form that you apply, but compared to the others, it is one nutrient that you can deal with on an annual basis after planting.

H


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## CortneyD (Feb 13, 2022)

BigH said:


> Potassium, phosphorus and many other nutrients have poor mobility in soil, so if you don't fix them before planting, you are going to have a difficult time trying to add them later. My soil was low on phosphorus when I planted my vineyard. I was told to apply phosphorus only, and disc it in as deep as I could. Finding phosphorus only fertilizer was a bit of a challenge.
> 
> Nitrogen's mobility depends on the form that you apply, but compared to the others, it is one nutrient that you can deal with on an annual basis after planting.
> 
> H


Oh I get all that stuff, I just didn't know vineyards were amended! Something, something about how my brain understood terroir and growing grapes hard just added up to not amending. Now I know! Thanks!


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## Bkat (Feb 14, 2022)

CortneyD said:


> Oh I get all that stuff, I just didn't know vineyards were amended! Something, something about how my brain understood terroir and growing grapes hard just added up to not amending. Now I know! Thanks!


Keep in mind, you can accomplish quite a bit with a good balance of cover crop and not need to add much if anything. So don't fret too much about it or feel that if you don't micro-manage with supplemental inputs, you're on the path to disaster.

Top dressing the aisles with composted manure once a season will take care of a lot. Nature is pretty good at finding a balance and established vines are deep-feeders, bringing nutrients and minerals up rather than relying on supplemental feeding from above. Also, keep in mind grapes are pretty resilient plants and if you go too headstrong into maximizing fertility the vines will be leafy but not necessarily productive, especially if you're growing cold-hardy varieties. Grapes grow well in some very difficult places so being in Wisconsin where your soil is probably better than most (depending upon where you are of course), don't feel you need to overthink it.


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## Dennis Griffith (Feb 15, 2022)

I always test the soil prior to starting another row, and amend accordingly. After 2 - 3 years of growth, I test either the leaves or petioles, depending on lab preference. Amending rows at this point depends on the lab results.


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## GSMChris (Feb 20, 2022)

Progress at last yesterday. The team showed up and spread the limestone and compost and then used a 24 inch disc to turn it under. The black metal pipe dragging behind smoothed the soil out and generally made it look prettier!

Photos to follow


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## GSMChris (Feb 20, 2022)

The spreader


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## GSMChris (Feb 20, 2022)

The limestone


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## GSMChris (Feb 20, 2022)

The tractor - with disc attached this time


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

Boy it has been a while since I posted on this thread... Lots of progress has been made - most notably the end posts have been installed, the main irrigation lines have been run, all of the holes have been angered, and we are about a third of the way through build out the trellis. A series of pictures to follow....


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

Digging the post holes


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

52 Posts planted....


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

Irrigation line marked for trenching - Note that I am running the lines in the 8 foot space between the end post and the first vine.


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

Trench leading from the blue line in the previous picture over to the water tank. Large hole near the tank is where the five valves will be positioned - one for each variety of grape. Note also that new electrical has been installed on the post along with the drip irrigation controller. Eventually a shed will be built to the left of that post and the controller will be moved inside the shed.


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

We used a two man auger to drill 589 of these....


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

Trellis is a work in progress. We are installing a drip tube line at 18 inches and the cordon wire at 40 inches (because we aren’t getting any younger and this will reduce bending over.)

Catch wires will follow in a couple of years.


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## ibglowin (Mar 22, 2022)

Starting to come together!




GSMChris said:


> View attachment 85981
> Trellis is a work in progress. We are installing a drip tube line at 18 inches and the cordon wire at 40 inches (because we aren’t getting any younger and this will reduce bending over.)
> 
> Catch wires will follow in a couple of years.


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## ChuckD (Mar 22, 2022)

Looks great! I plan on starting my grapes this year and adding the trellis next summer. Of course I’m only planting 25 to 50 grapes at a time.

Will you be using grow tubes?


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## GSMChris (Mar 22, 2022)

Yup- I’m using the orange/pink/salmon colored plastic ones in the 24 inch tall flavor. My main pests are ground squirrels and jack rabbits so that’s high enough to keep them off.

I debated skipping the trellis this year but decided that I wanted to get the irrigation tubing off the ground and away from the aforementioned pests.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 23, 2022)

Re: Grow tubes. The voice of experience here. I use Blue X for 1st year vines and the pink Plantra for 2nd year or beyond. My reasoning is thus: I got some used Blue X for my first planting. I managed to come up with used Plantra that are the "wrap around" style. The Blue X work good while the vines are young and small but in the 2nd or 3rd year, the vines are too big to get the Blue tubes off with out cutting the blue sleeve or tearing up vines. The wrap around can be removed much easier.

Since I have a huge supply of both blue and pink, I've settled in the blue for 1st year or very weak vines and the pink for older vines. 

The vines I planted in 2021 are still small; we had a real dry summer and they didn't grow much so I may use blue on them again. The used pink are hard to keep together since they were stored flat for several years.


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## GSMChris (Mar 23, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Re: Grow tubes. The voice of experience here. I use Blue X for 1st year vines and the pink Plantra for 2nd year or beyond. My reasoning is thus: I got some used Blue X for my first planting. I managed to come up with used Plantra that are the "wrap around" style. The Blue X work good while the vines are young and small but in the 2nd or 3rd year, the vines are too big to get the Blue tubes off with out cutting the blue sleeve or tearing up vines. The wrap around can be removed much easier.
> 
> Since I have a huge supply of both blue and pink, I've settled in the blue for 1st year or very weak vines and the pink for older vines.
> 
> The vines I planted in 2021 are still small; we had a real dry summer and they didn't grow much so I may use blue on them again. The used pink are hard to keep together since they were stored flat for several years.



I’ve never seen the blue ones here. Commercial vineyards almost exclusively use the orangish ones - occasionally you will see cartons especially if someone just has a few fill in vines.

My supply came from a vineyard that said I could have all I wanted - if I removed them from the vines myself. So I spent a day helping them remove the grow tubes and ended up with several hundred.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 24, 2022)

Double A Vineyards sells blue ones. And that is a great way to acquire tubes, regardless of color.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 24, 2022)

I probably would not have gone with the blue but for getting them cheap - 25 cents each. I think I paid 35 cents for 1000 of the pink (used), The pink are a PITA to keep together but easy to remove. Darned either way!

I did buy some new of the Blue X from Double A. Very nice when new.


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## ChuckD (Mar 24, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I did buy some new of the Blue X from Double A. Very nice when new.


Good to know. I bought 50 blue ones from Double A. I hope to plant 40 to 50 vines each year so I should be able to reuse them.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 24, 2022)

If you pull he blue ones in September and store them, (don't try to take them apart to store...it won't work) they can last 3 or more seasons. I have tubes that are goin on the 4th or 5th season. Some tubes will live longer than others. Put them on when you plant. If you use tubes for older vines, don't put them on before the last frost date They make a mini greenhouse and you have bud break too early. I learned the hard way.


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 24, 2022)

I don't have issues with animals, so I don't need tubes for that. I have fence with electric along the top. Plus I have a 'guard' that periodically roams vineyard acres. The animals seem to know that if you are on the wrong side of the fence, well, it won't be a good thing. Another consideration on leaving them in place over winter is that voles/mice can nest in them and they can chew on the trunk. I also have issues with slugs, so I don't want any shelter around the base of the vine. I'm starting to think that slugs may help contribute to crown galling as they can cause small wounds on the trunk near ground level. I can't substantiate this (yet), but it is based on observations I'm making. I lose vines every year to galling.


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## GSMChris (Apr 9, 2022)

Well, wish me luck everyone… First vines going in the ground today - 175 Primitivo vines. We have a group of friends coming over to help so there will be nine of us planting.

These vines will be followed next weekend with another batch (more Primitivo plus Carignane) and then GSM the following weekend…. Busy month ahead.

I also have a bunch of pictures to upload of the last month’s building out of the infrastructure- but that will have to wait until I have more time and energy.


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## GSMChris (May 1, 2022)

Well, I'm happy to say we are 85%+ done with the planting - just one last shipment which should show up on Wednesday or Thursday. Plants were shipped in four batches - the first three all dormant and the last one 80 Green Syrah plants as I couldn't get anymore on the 3309 rootstock.

We have had a great time with our planting parties. Each party was 2 or 3 couples - they'd show up around 9:30. I would provide them with a bucket containing their supplies and then give them a short demo on how to plant the vine. I'd then hang out and watch them plant one or two and answer any questions. We'd plant until 12 or 12:30 and then wrap it up with lunch which would include a glass or two of wine of the type they had been planting.

The parties varied widely in their productivity - some would get one plant done every 30 minutes and one, fantastic couple, planted two twenty plant rows in roughly an hour and 15 minutes. They were just flying!!!

The first plants were planted three weeks ago yesterday. The best of them has eight inches (yes I measured) of green growth including a couple of little clusters (which I will remove when they get closer to the top of the grow tube. The worst of that batch has green nubs about half an inch long. I'm completely shocked that none of them failed to grow out of the 225 Primitivo vines. Other varietals haven't progressed as far as they were planted a week or two later. 

A few things we learned - grow tubes work better if you staple them than if you rely on the little tabs to keep them open. We also used long twisties to tie the tub to the irrigation wire - worked better than tie tape for us.

A friend in Sonoma suggested sprinkling a mycorrhizal fungus starter on the roots when planting. He suggested Mycormax. It was easy to do so that was one of the planting steps. Will it make any difference? I have no way of knowing but he had an 8 acre commercial vineyard for several years before selling it this year to really really retire. So if he says something works, I tend to listen.


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## VinesnBines (May 2, 2022)

Wow! If I spent 30 minutes on each vine I would be planting for three weeks. I got 130 in the ground in about 1.5 hours and then watered roughly 30 to 45 seconds each (depending on water pressure - one gallon per plant). Just me planting and watering but it does go pretty fast. That should be my last watering of the vines. I tried drip lines for my first planting but that was too much pain and don't know that it was worth the effort. We were pretty dry last year but it appears that all the vines I planted in April 2021 survived...some are still quite small but better to be hardy with strong roots than lots of vine on top.

Yes the pink grow tubes must be stapled and even then they can pop open. They are easier to take off in the fall.

Keep us posted.


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

Well, I finally have a little time to catch up so here are a series of posts on the planting…


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

An auspicious start to the planting - this showed The day before planting


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

Me planting the first vine


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

Many hands made for light work - well sort of. The vines came in four batches, each timed for a planting party weekend. Batch size varied from 75 on the smallest batch to 250 on the biggest. We invited different groups to come help and whatever work was left over I took care of on Monday or Tuesday.


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

Then the last two vines were saved for Mother’s Day weekend. My mom came down from Oregon and she and my wife each planted one (my wife had done plenty prior to this!!)


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

Now they are resting on their laurels after that exhausting work


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## ibglowin (Jun 25, 2022)

Coming along nicely. Thanks for the pics and the updates!


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

So where are we now? Well, we had 10 vines fail to emerge from dormancy (out of 600). We had planted spares of each varietal in five gallon pots so I’ll be ripping out the failures soon and replacing with the potted ones.

As for the rest of them… doing great!!

We are about two months post planting and virtually all of them are out of the tubes.


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## GSMChris (Jun 25, 2022)

The star of the bunch is roughly 5’6” tall. How can I tell? I’m 5’ 11”


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## VinesnBines (Jun 25, 2022)

Looking great! I would have suggested leaving the 10 with a slow start; I’ve only had one or two out of 1400 not eventually break bud. 

Interestingly grapes seem to like hot, dry sand better than cool moist loam. At least in the first months.


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## Obbnw (Jun 25, 2022)

Wow, lot's of good work, lots more to come.....


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## ChuckD (Jun 25, 2022)

Looking great. Do you plant grass or anything in between the rows? Mow the weeds? Or try to maintain bare ground?


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## GSMChris (Jun 26, 2022)

Re the vineyard floor and weed control.

For this season, I am going with bare dirt - which means I’ve got some serious weeding to finish up. We were about 2/3 of the way through the vineyard before our scheduled East Coast vacation. 15 large black plastic bags so far. boulders are getting moved under the wire as we go.

Next I am planning to pick up the boulders with my to be purchased tractor and run a rock rake through the aisles in an effort to reduce the current rock collection.

Planting any kind of cover crop now isn‘t practical given we won’t have meaningful rain until November or December if we are lucky - and we are heading into the 100+ degree months.

Based on my original soil tests, I need to build up the organic matter in the soil and the nitrogen. I’ll rerun those tests in August or September and will then plant a winter cover crop based on the results the first time real rain is in the forecast. I’ll probably add some compost at that time as well.

Then I need to decide what to do for next spring after the winter cover crop is terminated. Some of my neighbors disc the rows, others mow their cover crops short and let them die off. I don’t know at this point. More research and work to do…


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## ChuckD (Jun 26, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Re the vineyard floor and weed control.
> 
> For this season, I am going with bare dirt - which means I’ve got some serious weeding to finish up. We were about 2/3 of the way through the vineyard before our scheduled East Coast vacation. 15 large black plastic bags so far. boulders are getting moved under the wire as we go.
> 
> ...


So no permanent grass? Is that because of the climate and water requirements? Here in the Midwest it seems all the vineyards have permanent grass cover and are mowed. I planted grass and will add much rows about two feet wide under the wire to reduce competition.


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## GSMChris (Jun 26, 2022)

I have a hard time keeping my lawn alive with a full on sprinkler system. Currently each zone is 45 minutes, 3 or 4 times a week. I will be bumping up to one hour soon.

In Paso Robles, we get essentially no rain from May to November. So it’s all well water to keep grass alive.


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## ChuckD (Jun 26, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> I have a hard time keeping my lawn alive with a full on sprinkler system. Currently each zone is 45 minutes, 3 or 4 times a week. I will be bumping up to one hour soon.
> 
> In Paso Robles, we get essentially no rain from May to November. So it’s all well water to keep grass alive.


In that case forget the grass. Conserve your water. I would probably go with a seasonal cover crop like you mentioned then mow it down and let it die off during the dry season. I don’t know if they make no-till seeders narrow enough for between the rows but that would be ideal… no tillage required.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 26, 2022)

Isn’t it amazing the difference in climates? In the Virginia mountains we fight the grass almost all year. I sprayed burnout herbicide in late May and now you can’t tell I ever touched any weeds under the vines. We had to mow the asides twice in late May, just to keep it under control. On the plus side no irrigation needed tho fungi love it!


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## GSMChris (Jun 26, 2022)

And I mowed once just to make the weeds shorter before pulling them out. First time all year.


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## ChuckD (Jun 26, 2022)

No irrigation here either. I’ve been mowing the lawn twice a week since late April. And I never water. If it browns that’s just a break for me. Two days after it rains it will be green again!


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## GSMChris (Jul 6, 2022)

Hmm - someone didn’t get the memo about year one being about root and trunk development.

So do I need to open each and every growtube to see if there are grapes inside?


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## ChuckD (Jul 6, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Hmm - someone didn’t get the memo about year one being about root and truck development.
> 
> So do I need to open each and every growtube to see if there are grapes inside?
> 
> View attachment 90334


We have found some too. my wife has smaller arms than me so she has been reaching inside the tubes to pinch off flower clusters but I’m sure some have escaped detection. We were told to remove the tubes in mid August to let the vines harden off so I guess we’ll remove the rest then.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 7, 2022)

Each year, as I root new cuttings, many of these sprout a florescence along with the new growth. I always pinch them off. I guess they are just programmed to reproduce. I don't let any vine under the age of 3 produce anything other than leaves and roots. And even at 3, if they don't look hardy enough, I let them go another year. I put tags on young vines as a reminder to pinch off any fluorescence/clusters I see. That's my schedule


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## GSMChris (Jul 21, 2022)

So in late June and into July we were on vacation on the East Coast - visiting the kids. Vineyard was on automatic watering so I figured things would be fine...

Well, I returned to find that someone was pruning my vines for me ... 

I put up a couple of video cameras to see who was responsible....


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## ChuckD (Jul 21, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> So in late June and into July we were on vacation on the East Coast - visiting the kids. Vineyard was on automatic watering so I figured things would be fine...
> 
> Well, I returned to find that someone was pruning my vines for me ...
> 
> ...


Mmmmmmm venison


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## GSMChris (Jul 21, 2022)

Should I serve Syrah or Zinfandel with that?


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## ChuckD (Jul 21, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Should I serve Syrah or Zinfandel with that?


What are they feasting on? It only seems fitting!


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## VinesnBines (Jul 21, 2022)

It seems late in the year; mine like the new shoots in the spring and late fall. Maybe the sprinkler caused some new growth. 

Welcome to the world of viticulture - farming in general - the never ending wildlife battle.


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## GSMChris (Jul 21, 2022)

This is all new growth - they were planted in April and May. So I suspect this is a real delicacy this time of year. 

They seem to be focusing on Syrah and Zin so it does seem fair.


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## Neb Farmer (Jul 21, 2022)

Hmmm. I wonder what venison wine would taste like?


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## Joe B. (Jul 22, 2022)

Been there when I first planted. Had to invest in a deer fence, nothing else I tried worked.


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## montanarick (Jul 23, 2022)

I used 5' welded wire fence and it worked just fine to keep deer out. Tie off some bright flagging, that will flap in the breeze, every 8' or so to let them know there's something there


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## GSMChris (Jul 23, 2022)

Thank you all for the suggestions. 

Right now, based on the camera evidence and the damage being done, we have a single deer who is coming occasionally e.g. every three or four days. I've got 8-10 vines (out of 600) that have been munched on. As long as it stays at that level, I'm really reluctant to spend $xx,000 to build a proper 8 foot fence that goes around the whole vineyard. 

So for this year, I have a two phase plan. First, I have been moving the cameras around to see where he enters and exits. If it is the same point or points over and over, I'll make the fence higher in those areas. So far, he hops the same 50 year old barbed wire fence in the same place. It has sagging wires in several places so definitely room for improvement.

Secondly, if that doesn't work, I am going to install catch wires on the two ends of the vineyard up to the top of the posts and put flags on the top wire. I need those catch wires eventually anyway. I'll then install a series of 5 wires across the end posts on either side of the vineyard - giving me six feet of coverage there. 

I hope that this secondary will make it so he only eats on the first and last rows - at which point I'll fence off the ends. I'm pretty sure that he can jump more than five or six feet - but hopefully he will decide it isn't worth the effort and will just go back next door and eat on their vines (the aforementioned barbed wire fence is in common with the neighboring vineyard.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 25, 2022)

I have them too. And they start young. I use the 5' fence as well.


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## GSMChris (Jul 25, 2022)

Wow - that’s really in your face. I’ve seen one deer in daylight in the three years we have lived here. I’d be going much more nuts if there was a herd coming and going.


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## Dennis Griffith (Jul 26, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Wow - that’s really in your face. I’ve seen one deer in daylight in the three years we have lived here. I’d be going much more nuts if there was a herd coming and going.


We are polluted with them. I've seen herds as large as 25. My nephew hunts them as they need thinned. Last year I had a fawn play with me while I was on a tractor. It would run up near me and then run away a few feet. Then repeat the process. It was not put off by me on the tractor making noise. And I've had bucks in the fall challenge me on the same tractor. Last year I had one hold ground in front of me while stamping his front hooves. I raised the front bucket up high to answer him, he decided it was not a good match up..


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## GSMChris (Aug 5, 2022)

Well, the damage continued….


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## GSMChris (Aug 5, 2022)

So I’ve gone ahead with putting up the wires on the end posts. Top wire is about 5’ 6”. I know they can jump this, the question is will they? Or will they dine elsewhere.


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## GSMChris (Aug 5, 2022)

In other news, we did a major weed and rock cleanup with the help of four members of the high school football team looking to make a few bucks.


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## GSMChris (Aug 5, 2022)

The ever growing rock pile. I said rocks bigger than a baseball but I think they spent too much time on the golf course because lots of little stuff made the pile as well.


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## VinesnBines (Aug 5, 2022)

Is that electric? If so, bait with aluminum foil strips with a dab of peanut butter. I don't think the deer are trying to jump my four foot electric fence netting but then they have loads of grass to eat.

It astonishes me that you have no grass or weeds. I need a machete to get to my vines after 5 inches of rain last week.


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## GSMChris (Aug 5, 2022)

It is set up to be electric but not hooked up. It’s a long way to the nearest outlet so I’m just seeing how they react. Thanks for the tip on baiting the wire - never heard of that one. 

As for no weeds or grass, it’s a combination of no rain since April and a lot of sweat over the last couple of weeks. I’ll be planting a cover crop in October so I’m trying to keep things reasonably clean until then


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## VinesnBines (Aug 5, 2022)

You can use a solar energizer. I've also read about 3-D electric fencing for deer. They can only see one dimension so they think they can't jump the 3-D. Google 3-D electric fence. You can find a lot of information.


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## GSMChris (Aug 5, 2022)

I can’t believe I didn’t think of that. The cameras are on solar power - of course you can charge an electric fence. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!!


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 5, 2022)

According to the 'experts' around here, the deer will not jump a fence they are unsure of. So, that means either tilting the posts a little as they can't figure it out if it's not straight up and down, or (as I do) run a strand of electric fence tape up high. It flutters in the breeze and the movements makes them unsure if it's safe to jump. This works for me. The down side is that the tape will need annual maintenance as the fluttering and movement wears that tape as the fasten points on the posts. Notice in the background of this pic. You can get 8' Tee posts from most farm supply stores. I also run 2x4 fencing at ground level.


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## SCAndy (Aug 5, 2022)

Some of the smaller Mule deer get spooked by fishing line, so say the pot growers. At least you don't have to deal with the monster white tails most of the horror stories here are referring to. It may work for a while on trafficked game trails??? When they want to jump they really can bounce though.


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## ibglowin (Aug 5, 2022)

Your removing a lot of "Terroir" there! LOL



GSMChris said:


> The ever growing rock pile. I said rocks bigger than a baseball but I think they spent too much time on the golf course because lots of little stuff made the pile as well.
> 
> View attachment 91383


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## GSMChris (Aug 6, 2022)

ibglowin said:


> Your removing a lot of "Terroir" there! LOL


Believe me - lots more where that came from.


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## GSMChris (Aug 6, 2022)

Dennis Griffith said:


> According to the 'experts' around here, the deer will not jump a fence they are unsure of. So, that means either tilting the posts a little as they can't figure it out if it's not straight up and down, or (as I do) run a strand of electric fence tape up high. It flutters in the breeze and the movements makes them unsure if it's safe to jump. This works for me. The down side is that the tape will need annual maintenance as the fluttering and movement wears that tape as the fasten points on the posts. Notice in the background of this pic. You can get 8' Tee posts from most farm supply stores. I also run 2x4 fencing at ground level.
> 
> View attachment 91391


The leaning posts is definitely what the experts say here too. That’s why I used the end posts which lean.

That, and that deer don’t like to jump between two fences. So the next plan is a short perhaps five foot, fence inside the existing fences.


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## ChuckD (Aug 8, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> The leaning posts is definitely what the experts say here too. That’s why I used the end posts which lean.
> 
> That, and that deer don’t like to jump between two fences. So the next plan is a short perhaps five foot, fence inside the existing fences.


I have seen people erect a five foot fence then add three-foot extensions that angle outward with two single wires. I think the theory is that deer standing at the fence look up and sees the wires overhead. Seems to work.


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 9, 2022)

@GSMChris - from the photos, you have a lot of work happening there


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 9, 2022)

I have to tell you, as I approach 70 and look around at our 56 acres, I wonder how much longer I can maintain it all. Each year my wife does less outside, which mean I do more.


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## GSMChris (Aug 10, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I have seen people erect a five foot fence then add three-foot extensions that angle outward with two single wires. I think the theory is that deer standing at the fence look up and sees the wires overhead. Seems to work.


I like that idea… and will be implementing the first time they try to jump the wires. So far, like last night, they look at it and move on. Once I make the end rows “deer resistant“ then we will see. For now they are just hammering the end rows.


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## GSMChris (Aug 10, 2022)

Dennis Griffith said:


> @GSMChris - from the photos, you have a lot of work happening there


My wife claims it’s keeping me out of trouble.

I hear you on the what happens as I get older. I‘m trying to implement things now which result in less work in the future. 

For example, I’ve nearly finished replacing all of the irrigation that came with the house. It was 20 + years old and implemented with class 200 pipe which has grown brittle over the years. In the first six months, I tried bailing wire and chewing gum to maintain and tweak that system virtually every weekend. We also wanted to irrigate probably 50% more land to allow for a veggie garden, fruit and olive trees. Finally I decided this whole system and trying to extend its life was stupid. So I have replaced it with a new system. We went from 16 valves to 63 valves as the valves were all trying to water far too much and too diverse of a set of plants. We built using schedule 40 and schedule 80 pipe using about 2800 feet of the former and 800 feet of the latter (which I use for all distribution lines from the well to the various valve boxes). Overkill? Perhaps - but I have had to make one repair in 3 years - bad glue job on a tee was leaking.


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## ChuckD (Aug 10, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> I like that idea… and will be implementing the first time they try to jump the wires. So far, like last night, they look at it and move on. Once I make the end rows “deer resistant“ then we will see. For now they are just hammering the end rows.


I think using the electric “tape” for the extension wires would work even better.


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 10, 2022)

One observation I have after several years of this approach. The 1" wide tape wears better than wider stuff and seems to works just as well. And a roll of it is a little cheaper to buy. I've been switching over as I maintain the fence. I get it in 1000 foot rolls.


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## GSMChris (Aug 10, 2022)

Thanks for the guidance Chuck and Dennis. I'll switch over once I use up the existing roll.


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## CDrew (Aug 21, 2022)

Somehow, I missed this great thread. Thanks for all the detail and pics. I have carefully considered foothill property and a vineyard and this has clarified exactly how much work it is. I'm almost glad we were out bid on a piece of vineyard property last spring!

Congrats, though, on such a nice vineyard. I hope the deer leave some for you!


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## GSMChris (Aug 24, 2022)

On Sunday, we installed 7 foot plastic deer fencing.

On the south side, where the plants are on the “outside” of the support stakes, we installed cross arms at the 4 and 6 foot marks and then ran 14 gauge wire. The cross arms got the wire clear of the tubing - and then we pulled the bottom out about two feet, stapling it to the ground every five-six feet. 

On the north side, the plants are inside the support stakes, so we simply installed the two wires directly to the T-posts and end posts. Then the fencing was zip tied to all of the various wires and posts. Went through two 100 zip tie bags in all so I suspect we were a little enthusiastic. 

Video thus far shows the deer nosing around the fencing but not making any attempts to break through. My attitude is we shall see. Next step will be to charge up the wires on the end posts and add a wire to the deer netting as an incentive to go elsewhere.


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## ChuckD (Aug 24, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> On Sunday, we installed 7 foot plastic deer fencing.
> 
> On the south side, where the plants are on the “outside” of the support stakes, we installed cross arms at the 4 and 6 foot marks and then ran 14 gauge wire. The cross arms got the wire clear of the tubing - and then we pulled the bottom out about two feet, stapling it to the ground every five-six feet.
> 
> ...



I’m trying to picture it. Do you have photos?


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## GSMChris (Aug 24, 2022)

Here is a photo of the lower end where we attached directly to the T posts and wire


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## GSMChris (Aug 24, 2022)

And here is the high or South end where we used cross arms to move the wire out about 5 inches


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 25, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Here is a photo of the lower end where we attached directly to the T posts and wire
> 
> View attachment 92099


I hope the plastic holds up. We've had deer run thru electric tape and plastic fence before.


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## VinesnBines (Aug 25, 2022)

I've been told to tie white plastic bags at the top of the fence and that confuses the deer and they don't think they can jump or run through. White being more visible of course.


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## ChuckD (Aug 25, 2022)

@GSMChris 
Thanks. I see you still need to install your trellis system as well. My garden fence is just a temporary five-foot poly fence. I take it down every winter and this is the first year in 4 that a deer has run through it. My deer have lots of options so they don’t want to work too hard for a meal. So far a few applications of liquid repellent since the tubes came off has worked for the vines. I’m still planning a permanent fence around the garden and vineyard for raccoons, turkeys and deer. Also for chicken protection as predators have wiped out my free range flock for the second year in a row .


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## GSMChris (Aug 25, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> @GSMChris
> Thanks. I see you still need to install your trellis system as well. My garden fence is just a temporary five-foot poly fence. I take it down every winter and this is the first year in 4 that a deer has run through it. My deer have lots of options so they don’t want to work too hard for a meal. So far a few applications of liquid repellent since the tubes came off has worked for the vines. I’m still planning a permanent fence around the garden and vineyard for raccoons, turkeys and deer. Also for chicken protection as predators have wiped out my free range flock for the second year in a row .



Re the trellis - I simply did the irrigation wire and the fruiting wire this year. I'm planning on installing the cross arms and catch wires after I prune.

For now, I am simply trying to make it so the deer have to work harder to dine in the vineyard than they do to dine in my neighbors yard... Long term, hardly any of my neighbors- including the commercial neighbors have any deer fencing. Other neighborhoods are more deer intensive and there the fences have gone up. So I will have to see once the vines are older.

Thanks for the idea on the white plastic bags - I'll add that to the next steps!!! Although the real next step - if they get in - is electrifying the white wire on the end posts.


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## ChuckD (Aug 25, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Re the trellis - I simply did the irrigation wire and the fruiting wire this year. I'm planning on installing the cross arms and catch wires after I prune.
> 
> For now, I am simply trying to make it so the deer have to work harder to dine in the vineyard than they do to dine in my neighbors yard... Long term, hardly any of my neighbors- including the commercial neighbors have any deer fencing. Other neighborhoods are more deer intensive and there the fences have gone up. So I will have to see once the vines are older.
> 
> Thanks for the idea on the white plastic bags - I'll add that to the next steps!!! Although the real next step - if they get in - is electrifying the white wire on the end posts.


Yep. You just need to make it marginally more difficult for the deer than your neighbors vineyard. 

From what I gather once the vines are mature and up on the wires grape vines don’t experience a lot of browsing damage. I think it’s a combination of being out of reach and not being a preferred food. Now if we trellised hosta’s the deer would quickly learn to climb!


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## ChuckD (Aug 26, 2022)

Very interesting climate you have there. It’s very strange to see vineyards with no ground cover… just dirt. We have so much rain here that bare dirt would quickly erode away. And keeping it bare would be a constant struggle. I can skip weeding the garden for a week and I will have pigweed that’s a foot tall!


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## VinesnBines (Aug 26, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Very interesting climate you have there. It’s very strange to see vineyards with no ground cover… just dirt. We have so much rain here that bare dirt would quickly erode away. And keeping it bare would be a constant struggle. I can skip weeding the garden for a week and I will have pigweed that’s a foot tall!


Ditto. Our struggle is keeping the weeds down in the vineyard. Some of my youngest vines are going to have to be "found" this fall. I sprayed herbicide but with all the rain we've had this year the weeds just keep on going. I only see bare dirt when we plow and till early in the year and I never see bare dirt in the vineyard.


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## GSMChris (Aug 26, 2022)

Well, it’s a little deceiving- I have been pulling everything in sight for the last month, trying to eliminate a particularly nasty weed called yellow star thistle before it sets seed. I’ll be planting a cover crop in September/ October to stop erosion and increase organic matter in the soil.

And we have had essentially no rain since April so all of the water in that area comes via the drip system.


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## GSMChris (Aug 26, 2022)

Oh - and I got a new toy - a John Deere 3025 - with a box scraper and a loader. So I’ve been practicing in the aisles using the box scraper and back dragging with the loader. You can see that especially in the second image.


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## cosmyccowboy (Aug 26, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> And here is the high or South end where we used cross arms to move the wire out about 5 inches
> 
> View attachment 92100


The #1 rule I learned about installing a trellis is don’t skimp on your posts, especially the corner posts. #2 when installing your corner posts dig your post holes at a angle so your posts are leaning backwards at a 10 degree or so angle


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## ChuckD (Aug 26, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Ditto. Our struggle is keeping the weeds down in the vineyard. Some of my youngest vines are going to have to be "found" this fall. I sprayed herbicide but with all the rain we've had this year the weeds just keep on going. I only see bare dirt when we plow and till early in the year and I never see bare dirt in the vineyard


Will you plant grass eventually or just fight weeds from now until the heat death of the universe?

In WI every vineyard I have seen has permanent grass cover. Some have a mulched strip under the vines. You might plant cover crops like @GSMChris too. Some small grains could be planted and mowed once a year.


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## cosmyccowboy (Aug 26, 2022)

I have put down a thick layer of pine straw in my small vineyard! I finally found a use for the long leaf pines in the yard!


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## GSMChris (Sep 23, 2022)

As the seasons turn, I’m starting to think about when to take the grow tubes off my vines. For those who may not want to scroll back up, I’m in the Paso Robles area of Central California. Temperatures are going to be in high 80s low 90s for highs, mid to high 50s for overnight lows for the next week.

All of the grapes have grown above the 24 inch tubes, all of the ones that weren’t trimmed by the deer have reached or surpassed the 40 inch (give or take) cordon wire. The vines are still growing - no signs of leaves turning color or anything. I have ten tracking vines, two of each Varietal, and they grew an average of 1.25 inches this last week (I measure on Sundays). Average height is 6 feet 3 inches (Measuring the biggest cane which is not always the longest).

So I am getting, as per usual, conflicting advice from the local growers. So I thought I’d throw it out here.

1) should I start removing the tubes now? Or should I waiting until things cool off more and growth stops? Or should I wait for Winter pruning and do it then?

2) when I pull the tubes, assuming things are still green and growing, should I clean up the suckers, spindly branches etc. or wait until the pruning season in January.

Appreciate the advice


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## VinesnBines (Sep 23, 2022)

For me, in Virginia, I should have pulled the tubes around Labor Day. I've been hindered with my injury so I'm hoping I can get them off ASAP. You can get them off at any point but if still hot, the lower leaves may cook in the sun. I don't think that will be harmful. You want the wood to start turning brown before cold weather.

After I pull off the tubes, I leave everything until pruning. 

Hopefully someone in California can give you better advice.


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## GSMChris (Nov 2, 2022)

So I think it’s time to post another series of pictures from the vineyard. We pulled all of the tubes in October and, based on advice from a neighbor, stripped off the leaves and twigs below the irrigation wire. Everything above the wire was tied to the stakes or the fruiting wire to get it off the ground and out of the aisles. The stripping was to accomplish two goals - ensure that the wood hardens up before the first frost (expected later this week) and to give us an easy way of seeing how solid each of the trunks is…

This first shot is from the south east corner - Primitivo in the foreground.


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## GSMChris (Nov 2, 2022)

Next is a shot of the Syrah


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## GSMChris (Nov 2, 2022)

Here’s the Grenache - it was hit the hardest by the deer


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## GSMChris (Nov 2, 2022)

Next the Mourvèdre- probably the biggest grower of them all


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## GSMChris (Nov 2, 2022)

And lastly the carignane- probably the biggest trunks and the most stubborn about growing grapes this year - I’m still finding new clusters


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## GSMChris (Nov 2, 2022)

As you can see in the last two pictures, I’m putting down a thin layer of compost in the aisles prior to planting cover crops this weekend

Here’s the pile - I’d better get busy


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## CDrew (Nov 2, 2022)

Outstanding. Looks fantastic. I am envious!


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## Nebbiolo020 (Nov 2, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Here’s the Grenache - it was hit the hardest by the deer
> 
> View attachment 94701


Grenache has been a grape that has frustrated me my entire winemaking career thus far, mostly how easy it is for it to be super high in sugar and heavy on the alcohol and how it has next to no color pigments and frequently you struggle to get anything more than a light pink color out of it. I’ve made it as both varietal Grenache and put it into various GSM blends. I just don’t like working with it though.


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## wood1954 (Nov 2, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Here’s the Grenache - it was hit the hardest by the deer
> 
> View attachment 94701


Before I fenced my vineyard a couple deer ate almost all my grape flowers in about two hours. That would have been my first full harvest. Good luck.


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## Joe B. (Nov 4, 2022)

The Grenache will rebound, it has high enough vigor and yes I agree it is difficult to master as 100% varietal. I haven't done it yet, but having one of the French clones to work with does help out with the color. I have been really enjoying following this thread. I've been learning how to grow grapes and make wine mostly from the school of hard knocks. It looks like to did your research and got some good advice.


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## GSMChris (Nov 4, 2022)

Hi Joe - Glad you are enjoying the thread... It has been fun documenting our journey here - and I have gotten some great feedback along the way. 

Oh I am sure that the Grenache will bounce back - It has had about 6 weeks of growth without the nightly pruning. So I figure it can sleep all winter now and will start up in the spring. As for making Grenache wine - I've only tried it once and found it be be challenging as the Ph was high as well the Brix (and the resulting alcohol levels are nuts). I'm intending to use it primarily as a blending wine to make GSM - which in my case will be probably heaviest on the Syrah. I will also have the Carignane for use as a blender for both the Zin and the Grenache and it looks like it would make for a deeper richer red.


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