# Oak chips vs. oak powder in primary fermentation



## geek

Which one is better?

I wanted to use oak powder but my local HBS only has the chips, medium toast and heavy toast.

Plan is to get a 6gal Merlot juice pail tomorrow.

If oak chips, do you discard when you rack to 2nd fermentation and then add new chips?


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## Boatboy24

I think either is fine. I've done kits using each of them.


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## Runningwolf

Next time I am going to add them to the secondary as Joe does. DO NOT add them a second time unless if you like chewing on wood. Wait till you start aging and then determine if you need more oak or not.


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## tonyt

I always use at least two ounces of untoasted American powder AND any provided chips, preferably medium French.


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## Luc

Either are fine but oak powder is much more difficult to remove as the chips are.

You should add the chips (or powder) to a finished wine that is aging. That way you can monitor the devellopment by tasting. You can not do that with a wine that is fermenting.

When you think there is enough oak in the wine you should wait more untill there is too much oak flavor in your wine. Why. Well that is because oak will mellow out in due time. So the taste will improve by aging your wine 2 years and up.

Out the chips in a nylon stocking and you can easily remove them from your carboy. You can not do that with powder so you need to dose the powder very carefully.

http://www.wijnmaker.blogspot.nl/2011/10/eikenbuiltje-oak-bag-for-wine.html

Luc


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## Runningwolf

Luc you have been a great mentor over the years and I have always enjoyed your posts. Respectfully this is one time I have to say I disagree with adding chips or powder during the aging process and not during fermentation. Adding them during fermentation stabilizes the color plus it reduces or eliminates any vegital character if the grapes came with it from the vineyard. Additionally I think it helps with the structure and mouth-feel of the wine. Upon aging if I feel the need for additional oak I use spirals or stix.

I would not use powder oak after fermentation for the reasons Luc stated. During fermentation it pretty much falls out with your lees and its not so hard to clean up when racking. In addition to that I feel powder and chips both leave a green bitter taste that takes longer to go away when used during the aging process, that spirals and stix do not.


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## geek

Dan,

I am using chips in my primary, american medium toast oak.
The package and the chips don't really smell or taste, I put a few chips in my mouth and was chewing but nope, no flavor....I hope they really do some work in primary.

I plan to stir the pail once daily a little.


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## GreginND

Yes, they will provide more subtle benefits than just flavor. As Dan has pointed out, and I agree, adding oak in primary helps stabilize color and does affect other flavors - not necessarily oak. Oak provides tannins for aging and structure. The forward "Oak" taste we typically refer to in wine largely comes from the toasting of the oak that provides smokiness and wood flavors. The level of toast brings out different amounts of vanilla and other "oaky" flavors.

It's actually a bit complicated as different oaks and different toast levels all affect the flavor and tannin structure.

Unless you are aging in oak barrels it is more difficult to integrate oak. Using powders, chips, cubes and staves is good but does not provide the exact same affect as aging in a barrel where you also get concentration by evaporation and microoxygenation.

I find oak from additives integrates better with wine when added in the primary. If it isn't "oaky" enough using staves or spirals after fermentation can add more and is easy to control.


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## JohnT

GreginND said:


> Yes, they will provide more subtle benefits than just flavor. As Dan has pointed out, and I agree, adding oak in primary helps stabilize color and does affect other flavors - not necessarily oak. Oak provides tannins for aging and structure. The forward "Oak" taste we typically refer to in wine largely comes from the toasting of the oak that provides smokiness and wood flavors. The level of toast brings out different amounts of vanilla and other "oaky" flavors.
> 
> It's actually a bit complicated as different oaks and different toast levels all affect the flavor and tannin structure.
> 
> Unless you are aging in oak barrels it is more difficult to integrate oak. Using powders, chips, cubes and staves is good but does not provide the exact same affect as aging in a barrel where you also get concentration by evaporation and microoxygenation.
> 
> I find oak from additives integrates better with wine when added in the primary. If it isn't "oaky" enough using staves or spirals after fermentation can add more and is easy to control.


 
Greg, 

Very well put! I would like just to add one more point to what you said. When it comes to oak, size matters. The bigger the piece of oak you use, the better the benefit. Use staves over cubes, cubes over chips, and chips over dust.


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## GreginND

John, I agree with that after fermentation. But I think you want rapid infusion if you add oak during primary so in that situation chips and powder may have advantages.


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## robie

Lots of commercial wineries add untoasted oak powder during fermentation. It does very little in the way of oaking the wine. Rather, it takes care of much of the potential vegetative aspects that may be in the must. Thing is, if the vegetal is there, the powder will absorb it; if not there it won't hurt a thing... always good insurance. It also absorbs other harmful proteins.

The last batch of zinfandel grapes I purchased had so much methoxy pyrazine (MP) in it that the batch never was any good because of the vegetative taste (green grass taste is great for Sav Blanc but not for any red). Trouble is, it is hard to determine the presence of MP until the wine is finished fermenting, which is too late. Oak powder would have made a huge difference, had I added it. So from now on, I will always add untoasted oak powder to any fresh/frozen grape wine I ferment.

(FYI - MP can be partially removed after fermentation by placing the wine in an oak barrel for an extend period and/or micro-oxygenation, which is difficult to apply and control in a home wine making environment.)


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## geek

makes sense, thanks robie. I assume that applies to pre-inoculated juice in pails.


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## robie

geek said:


> makes sense, thanks robie. I assume that applies to pre-inoculated juice in pails.



Yes, it does apply to pre-inoculated juice in pails. Not really necessary for a kit wine, though it won't hurt it, either.


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## tonyt

robie said:


> Lots of commercial wineries add untoasted oak powder during fermentation. It does very little in the way of oaking the wine.Rather, it takes care of much of the potential vegetative aspects that may be in the must. Thing is, if the vegetal is there, the powder will absorb it; if not there it won't hurt a thing... always good insurance. It also absorbs other harmful proteins.


I find that untoasted American oak dust adds a wonderful coconut aroma when used in primary. 
As far as kits are concerned some of the grape packs have lots of stems and twigs, I think the dust helps with the vegetal taste there also. If the fermentation is slow and the grape pack seems to have lots of stems I will remove it after a week to guard against the green taste.


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