# bentonite at start?



## Elmer (May 25, 2013)

All my kit wines come with bentonite, which is added at the beginning of the process!

I have noticed that my non kit wines take substantially longer to clear, with out the aide of Sparkalloid.

Should I consider adding bentonite to my non kit wines?

Or just skip it and allow wines to clear naturally or aided with Spakalloid when needed?


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## moesagoodboy (May 25, 2013)

Here is Wine Expert's explanation:
http://www.winexpert.com/wine-wiki/show/Bentonite,+Composition+and+Use+in+Wine+Kits 

If you have two buckets consider one with bentonite and one without.

Joe


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## dessertmaker (May 25, 2013)

I add bentonite to everything but beer. The worst thing it does is lighten the color a little sometimes. I did have a few that were lighter on color AND a little lighter on flavor than I expected but I blamed that more on not using enough fruit and just added an F-Pack. It could have been the bentonite. F-Pack fixed it so no harm done either way. It messes up head retention in beer though.


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## Geronimo (May 25, 2013)

I stopped using bentonite in anything. It's just clay that strips a little color while precipitating the larger particles that fall out pretty easy anyway. Someone once said that it provides nucleation sites, however you don't boil must so I don't get that one bit. All those clarifiers are intended for 6-8 week drinkability. IMO, if you can bulk age the wine at least 3-6 months, you can forget all of it.


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## salcoco (May 26, 2013)

As the article from Wine Expert states, bentonite removes protein. Any white juice be it grape or fruit will have protein. Adding bentonite for pear or peach wine will greatly reduce the protein haze that can develop post fermentation and greatly assist in clearing the wine. Learn this from experience.


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## Luc (May 27, 2013)

Elmer said:


> All my kit wines come with bentonite, which is added at the beginning of the process!
> 
> I have noticed that my non kit wines take substantially longer to clear, with out the aide of Sparkalloid.



So ???

What is the rush.

All my wines ckear beautifully without the use of any fining. Time clears all my wines.

I realise that we live in an instant gratification society but hey this is winemaking. Wines have to age for one or two years anyhow. So what the heck do a few weeks or months clearing extra matter.

Luc


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## vernsgal (May 27, 2013)

Lol,I think it's funny you too have asked this question. For answers on bentonite,may I suggest reading some of the posts on "critique/inputs for blackberry wine". I think I can honestly say since making the post I have learned much on bentonite


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## Ecoman44 (Aug 2, 2013)

Geronimo said:


> I stopped using bentonite in anything. It's just clay that strips a little color while precipitating the larger particles that fall out pretty easy anyway. Someone once said that it provides nucleation sites, however you don't boil must so I don't get that one bit. All those clarifiers are intended for 6-8 week drinkability. IMO, if you can bulk age the wine at least 3-6 months, you can forget all of it.




I'm a little late to the game here, but I think the nucleation site is for the CO2 bubble to form and not related to boiling the must. Kind of like a Mentos provides nucleation sites for CO2 in a soda. Seems to me the early addition of bentonite could not only help with clearing later, but could also help degas as well (esp for those of us that degas by stirring). I think I may do a two batch experiment and see how it goes.


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## robie (Aug 2, 2013)

If you don't add some during fermentation, you miss out on the removal of those unwanted proteins. The idea is to not add so much that it strips the color significantly.

The action of the bentonite being carried to the surface then back down to the bottom also helps keep the yeast in suspension, which helps those who choose not to stir their wine during primary.

Just as an example, bentonite and untoasted oak dust/powder added up front in a red can remove really bad things like methoxy pyrazine. It's much harder to get rid of it later in the cycle and it can really, really ruin a non-sauv blanc wine.


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## Turock (Aug 2, 2013)

Seems those who complain about problems when they use it, are using too much. NOT a good idea to over-dose.

We bentonite everything these days. Anyone who says time will clear all wines is not correct. Try making Niagara---it only clears by itself half of the time. Try making peach without it--and fight the pectin haze. 

Especially if you are going with no water additions--you will want to use bentonite in the primary. About the only thing we don't bentonite is concord.


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## salcoco (Aug 2, 2013)

so what is the recommend dosage?


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## Turock (Aug 2, 2013)

1 tbs. per 1/2 cup of hot water per 5 gallons. Be sure there are no lumps.


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## joeswine (Aug 3, 2013)

*Bentonite*

sediment out. 
Bentonite is unique in that it can be added to your wine either before or after fermentation. Most kit wines include Bentonite in the add pack, with instructions on how to mix it into the must before adding yeast. If you just dump the dry Bentonite into the must or wine, it will instantly turn into a clump of white mud and go straight to the bottom. It needs to be hydrated in a cup of hot water, and whipped into a slurry — preferably with a blender — and stirred into the must. 
When added pre-fermentation, it first settles to the bottom of the grape must. But when the turbulence of fermentation begins, CO2 gas bubbles form in the must and grab onto the Bentonite. The bubble will lift the Bentonite up to the top of the fermenting must, attracting positively charged solids as it rises. The bubble will burst when it reaches the surface, and the Bentonite particle will fall to the bottom again, still gathering positively charged solids as it sinks. This up and down circulation of Bentonite during fermentation clears your wine as it ferments. The self stirring action of fermentation allows the Bentonite to collect the dead yeast and other particles as they are being produced, so that by the time you are ready to rack from the primary, the Bentonite will have gathered a nice sediment of unwanted solids and dead yeast on the bottom. 
In addition, Bentonite helps keep wine stable during fermentation. When making kit wines, I have found that not adding the Bentonite on day one, as per instructions, sets the stage for an overly vigorous fermentation that tends to foam over and make a mess — even to the point of pushing the loose cover off the primary pail. 
Bentonite can also be added post fermentation. It will still sink to the bottom, but will not rise again unless you stir it yourself. Therefore, if you add Bentonite after stabilizing, stir vigorously three times each day to degas your wine and the Bentonite will be more effective. Even so, for post fermentation, you might want to consider other effective fining agents. *Carbon (activated charcoal) (no charge):* Carbon is not known as a clarifier so much as an effective remover of off-odors. Activated charcoal is used in household air filters, water filters and foot pads to absorb unwanted odors. The same principle applies to wine. Since carbon has no charge, it does not attract particles, but absorbs them. It can absorb the browning off-color and off-odors of oxidized wine. If overused, carbon can also strip wine of color, flavor and character, and will actually create an WINE FAULT.................


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## dessertmaker (Aug 3, 2013)

I always add pre ferment when I add it. It gets stirred up by the yeast and everything seems to clear faster.


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## tingo (Aug 3, 2013)

Maybe I am the odd man out but when I use bentonite I add it after fermentation. I do this because I believe wines complexities, character, and potential come partly from all the reactions that take place both during fermentation as well as after. I dont like the idea of stripping away elements that aid in yeast activity and wine development early on. Pieces of grape skins, lees,and proteins all have their parts to play until they need to be removed for stability reasons and ascetics later on. 
Also I try to minimize my rackings so I will usually add bentonite a few days before cold stabilizing. I will make a slurry, add it, then stir it up over the next few days. Then I add cream of tarter and throw the carboys in the fridge. This allows me to combine hot stabilization and cold stabilization therefor reducing; unnecessary oxygenation, handling, and makes the removal of the bentonite easier. 
Just my opinion.


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## Geronimo (Aug 3, 2013)

Yep, that's pretty much where I'm coming from. Bentonite doesn't do much at all in secondary since I use vacuum to degas and don't believe in agitating the wine for any reason. 

Proteins and tartrate can be dropped out with some cold conditioning in my experience but I'm mostly doing red wine kits. I haven't seen any indication of a protein haze in any of my wines.


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## zalai (Aug 3, 2013)

I am just starting a mid grade kit (10 L +crushed grape pack ) from Wine Kitz . I did not get any bentonite and the instructions says that it is not required for red wines . I have only done Vineco products before and always used bentonite . Should I get some bentonite and add it after fermentation ?


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## Turock (Aug 4, 2013)

Red wines really don't need bentonite. Whites need it. 

If you are using a standard recipe with water additions, your wines will probably clear on their own. But if you do fruit wines with no water, bentonite is needed.

If you want to bentonite in the secondary, no problem. It's just a lot more work. Bentonite, in the proper doseage, in the primary will not strip color or flavor and you get a lot of action going on due to the CO2 in the wine. Remember, bentonite is only clay--it does not impact the fermentation or the yeast.

We used to do some bentonite in the secondary and found it to be too much work because the bentonite just wants to sit on the bottom. Switching it over to the primary means less manipulation and,actually, less chance of oxidation. Every time you remove your airlock, rack,etc. is potential for oxidation. However, I know that people get comfortable doing things a certain way and don't want to switch. 

zalai---if your kit did not come with bentonite, then don't add any. Follow the kit instructions to the letter. This sounds like a red wine kit--reds don't need bentonite.


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## mikey1273 (Aug 7, 2013)

this is an integrating discussion. I have done about 4 wine expert kits and one juice bucket wine which was a Chianti. all the wine expert kits use bentonite in the primary, the reds and whites. I did not use it in the Chianti I made on my own from juice, it did clear on its own after several rackings fairly well and I just said it was good enough and bottled it because I needed the carboy for another wine. I wonder if I used bentonite if it would have cleared better? 

I have plans to make a Chardonnay and Cab-Franc from Juice buckets in the fall I think I will try bentonite in the primary with both.


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## robie (Aug 7, 2013)

mikey1273 said:


> this is an integrating discussion. I have done about 4 wine expert kits and one juice bucket wine which was a Chianti. all the wine expert kits use bentonite in the primary, the reds and whites. I did not use it in the Chianti I made on my own from juice, it did clear on its own after several rackings fairly well and I just said it was good enough and bottled it because I needed the carboy for another wine. I wonder if I used bentonite if it would have cleared better?
> 
> I have plans to make a Chardonnay and Cab-Franc from Juice buckets in the fall I think I will try bentonite in the primary with both.



Hard to say for sure but there is a good chance it wold have cleared better.

If you add your own bentonite, be sure to use the correct sized dose.


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## wineforfun (Aug 7, 2013)

Turock,
You are saying that the reds don't need bentonite? My RJS WS OVZ came with bentonite. Had me put 4L of warm water in primary, then add it, then the juice, etc.
Thoughts?


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## robie (Aug 7, 2013)

wineforfun said:


> Turock,
> You are saying that the reds don't need bentonite? My RJS WS OVZ came with bentonite. Had me put 4L of warm water in primary, then add it, then the juice, etc.
> Thoughts?



I am not Turock, but you should always use the bentonite in a red KIT, or a kit of any color that comes with bentonite and the instructions say to add it during fermentation.

Bentonite removes some unwanted proteins and helps keep the yeast well distributed during primary. 

There is one exception. The only time I don't use bentonite for a kit wine is if I am fermenting it in an oak barrel.


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## rob (Aug 7, 2013)

I think we all get caught up in the misconception that all wines need to age for 2 to 3 years, if you take the time to use clearing agents and have a stable wine, white wines are excellent at 6 to 7 months. I had a long conversation with the winery that buys our grapes and he had me taste test a white that was 1 1/2 years old and one that was 6 months old and there was no difference, now with that said this is a commercial winery that can do things we at home can not. I do however believe the reds can benefit from time. Most of the wineries here in the Midwest release their whites in the early summer. This winery went as far as to say they do not want to get backed up more than 2 years on their whites because they will lose their crispness and freshness. I might have argued with him until I tasted his wine and saw the 1st place trophies from California, I know midwest wine taking first place in a California, who would of thought!


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## mikey1273 (Aug 7, 2013)

I see the dose is 1TBSp per 5 gallons so for 6 gallons should I just heap the measure up some and mix it with warm water like I do for the kits?


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## Turock (Aug 8, 2013)

wineforfun---when working with KITS---follow their directions!! Use the bentonite if it comes with it. What I meant is that when making red grape wine from GRAPES, you don't need bentonite.

mikey--yes, that sounds good to me.


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## wineforfun (Aug 8, 2013)

Turock,
Sounds good. I was just going off your earlier post where you said "red wines don't need bentonite". It didn't mention anything about kits.


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## Turock (Aug 8, 2013)

Yeah---sorry about that. I've never worked with kits--all my experience is with grapes and fruit so when I say something, I have regular wines in mind and not kits. But I'm glad you ask me when I confuse you! We do not want you to be confused!!!!


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## wineforfun (Aug 8, 2013)

Turock said:


> Yeah---sorry about that. I've never worked with kits--all my experience is with grapes and fruit so when I say something, I have regular wines in mind and not kits. But I'm glad you ask me when I confuse you! *We do not want you to be confused*!!!!




No we don't, because I can do that to myself with no help.


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## robie (Aug 8, 2013)

rob said:


> I think we all get caught up in the misconception that all wines need to age for 2 to 3 years, if you take the time to use clearing agents and have a stable wine, white wines are excellent at 6 to 7 months. I had a long conversation with the winery that buys our grapes and he had me taste test a white that was 1 1/2 years old and one that was 6 months old and there was no difference, now with that said this is a commercial winery that can do things we at home can not. I do however believe the reds can benefit from time. Most of the wineries here in the Midwest release their whites in the early summer. This winery went as far as to say they do not want to get backed up more than 2 years on their whites because they will lose their crispness and freshness. I might have argued with him until I tasted his wine and saw the 1st place trophies from California, I know midwest wine taking first place in a California, who would of thought!



Aging whites longer than 6 months is an interesting topic. A lot of it has to do with how the wine is made and very much the purchasers' taste. Some white wine drinkers prefer a young, bright, crisp white; some an older smoother, mature white.

A wine made to be drank after 2 years is not going to taste as good young as a wine made specifically to be drank young.

The good winery will determine to which of these styles it is catering and make the wine accordingly. They may make both, under individual labels.


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## Turock (Aug 8, 2013)

I agree with Robie. There are some whites that really lose their bloom in the bottle even after 1 year. Niagara is a good example of that. Knowing the characteristics of the grapes you work with is paramount.


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## robie (Aug 8, 2013)

The Burgundian French are noted for their agable Chardonnays. To extend aging time on Chardonnays, some Burgundian wineries will taste the Chardonnay, taste the stems, and based on how tannic the stems are, they will add some amount to the fermenter. These extra tannins will protect the wine while it ages out.

Some may even ferment Chardonnay on some of the skins for this same reason.

I like both styles. Having a quick lunch out on the patio, I prefer a nice bright, crisp Chardonnay. In the evening over a nice meal, the smoother, more mature chard goes very well.


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