# Yeast not starting???



## OilnH2O (Jun 9, 2006)

Maybe I've messed up... I pitched the Red Star Cote d Blancs yeast on my rhubarb after squeezing the mash and adding all the other ingredients, including sugar. Realizing that I had forgotten to take the s.g. I took a sample, after most of the yeast had sunk and found the s.g. a little low (1.070). So I added sugar, but had to STIR it to get it dissolved. Sg now up to 1.080. I then covered and set aside. Temp is about 68F. As of this morning -- two days, there is no activity at all -- did I do something to those yeasties by stirring them up after pitching on top? Should I continue to wait or is there something I should do -- like maybe put a heating pad under the bucket to bring temp higher...




*Edited by: OilnH2O *


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## masta (Jun 9, 2006)

Temp is fine @ 68 and stirring should not have hurt the viability of the yeast so much it will prevent the start of fermentation. Are you sure there is no activity...did you recheck the SG?Looks are somewhat deceiving at times with a yeast that is a slow fermenter (as noted below)


Could you please post the recipe so the troops can maybe see an issue before you take drastic measures.


Description of yeast and specifics from Red Star:


*Product Description:
*Red Star® Côte des Blancs (Davis 750), a strain of _Saccharomyces cerevisiae_, has been derived from a selection of the Geisenheim Institute in Germany. It is a relatively slow fermenter, identical to Geisenheim Epernay, but producing less foam. This yeast requires nutrient addition for most chardonnay fermentations. Côte des Blancs produces fine, fruity aromas and may be controlled by lowering temperature to finish with some residual sugar. It is recommended for reds, whites, sparkling cuvées and non-grape fruit wines (especially apple, it is reported). Ferments best between 17°-30°C (64°-86°F). Sensitive below 13°C (55°F).


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## OilnH2O (Jun 9, 2006)

It's Jack Keller's recipe and posted below. The only deviation is substituing 1/4 tsp k-meta for the campden tablet and, on the advice of my local wine store owner, I left out the chalk (she said she makes it, and opened a bottle of rhubarb to taste, without chalk -- and said it could always be put in prior to bottling if tasting still noted too much acidity).She also suggested the cote d blancs yeast for the "saturne yeast" advised by Jack in the recipe.AND, I have not transferred to a secondary after only leaving overnight as the recipe states-- because I detected no activity. SO it's still in the primary, but I DID use a baseball bat (Stan Musial Special!).
<H3 align=center>Rhubarb Wine</H3>
<UL>

<LI>*6-7 lbs red rhubarb *</LI>



<LI>*2-1/2 lbs finely granulated sugar *</LI>
<LI>*2 large lemons (juice only) *</LI>
<LI>*water to make up one gallon *</LI>
<LI>*1 crushed Campden tablet *</LI>
<LI>*1 oz precipitated chalk *</LI>
<LI>*1-1/2 tsp yeast nutrient *</LI>
<LI>*Sauterne wine yeast *</LI>[/list]


*Wash the rhubarb and cut into 1/2-inch lengths. Crush with a piece of sterilized hardwood (the end of a baseball bat is perfect) and put into primary. Dissolve crushed Campden tablet in gallon of cold water and pour over rhubarb. Cover primary and let set for three days, stirring daily. Strain through a nylon straining bag and squeeze as much liquid as possible from the pulp. Discard pulp and return liquor to primary. Add the precipitated chalk (obtainable at winemaking shop). The liquor will fizz, but then settle down. Wait 3 hours and taste. If oxalic acid taste is still too strong, add another 1/2 oz of precipitated chalk. Stir in all remaining ingredients, making sure the sugar dissolves completely. (NOTE: You may want to hold back one pound of the sugar and add it after fermentation is well on its way.) Cover and set aside overnight. Transfer to secondary and fit airlock, but to allow for foaming during fermentation hold back a pint or so in a small bottle plugged with cotton. When ferment settles down (5-7 days), top up with reserved liquor and refit airlock. Set aside in cool place until wine begins to clear. Rack, refit airlock and top up. Allow at least another two months, making sure fermentation has ceased, and rack again. If possible, cold stabilize wine for 30 days. If you can't cold stabilize, at least allow the wine the additional 30 days. Rack into bottles or blend with another wine.*


*If you bottle the rhubarb wine pure, it is drinkable right away. If you blend it, age it according to instructions for the wine you are blending with. If you make a 3-5-gallon batch, add 1/8 tsp tannin per gallon when you add the other dry ingredients to extend the life of the wine. [Author's (Jack Keller)own recipe] *


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## masta (Jun 9, 2006)

Ok....you didn't say if you rechecked the SG or not but I think I know what the issue is. Too much free S02 for the yeast to handle. 


Jack Kellar states Potassium metabisulfite, ¼ teaspoon = 225 ppm in 1 gallon


I weighed out 1/4 tsp and came up with1.65 grams and this would be closer to 250ppm of free S02. So a good estimate is you are between 225-250 ppm which is extremely high and possibly lethal to the yeast.


I would stir the heck out of the must and leave the cover off to dissipate some of the sulfite. Is there anyway to increase the volume of the batch with more starting material to bring down the free S02 levels?


You could bring the volume to 5 gals and still have plenty of sulfite levels for protection!


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## OilnH2O (Jun 10, 2006)

I just (at 2:50p MDT) racked from the primary to a gallon CRossi jug and found I have a gallon and found I had to add a second jug... maybe 5/8th of a second gallon. While I added water, I now realize I added 1 gallon of water, not "water to make up one gallon." So, I have more liquid than the recipe assumes. I checked the SG and found it to be STILL at 1.082 -- in fact, maybe 1.084! I didn't check the temp, but it hasn't changed much.


I racked on advice of the local wine store owner, who suggested the yeast may be working, but no way to know without being under airlock. Since my primary is a square, 3-gallon plastic (former mayonaisse) bucket without a lid, I don't have a way to fix an airlock. Now that it is in the jugs with airlocks, there is no bubbling action apparent.


When I racked, there was a little sediment in the bottom of the primary, but maybe a total of 1/2 cup of sediment -- more or less.


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## masta (Jun 10, 2006)

OilnH2O said:


> I racked on advice of the local wine store owner, who suggested the yeast may be working, but no way to know without being under airlock.




No offense but I think you are getting some bad advice from the wine store owner. The best way to check to seeif the yeast is working other than bubbling through an airlock is to check the SG which you did and it obvious isn't doing anything. Now you have the must under airlock and no fermentation and next year at this time it will be the same!


You need toreduce the level of sulfite in the must and the best way is to increase the size of the batch to say 3 gallons and then re-pitch your yeast. But before you do...stir the hellout of it! Do you have a drill mounted stirrer?


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## OilnH2O (Jun 10, 2006)

Scott,


Yes, I have a mix stir and can easily do that -- should I add more sugar or a welch's concentrate to keep the sugar level up? It appears I'd be adding a gallon plus maybe another quart/litre to get to 3 gallons... I've saved that sediment -- throw that in as well? Or discard?


And, more Cote d blancs? Or something else? The wine store is open for a couple more hours and I can get the yeast there, at least!


Dave


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## masta (Jun 10, 2006)

Dave,


I would opt to change the yeast to something that has a higher tolerance to sulfite and Red StarPremier Cuvée or Lalvin K1V-1116 would be good choices. Welches red concentrate would work well with the the Rhubarb *but do not, I repeat do not use Welches white grape juice* as it contains a very high concentration of sulfites.


If you don't have any yeast energizer pick up some as we can add itin addition to the nutrient.


Yes save the sediment and add back to the primary but you will want to wait until tomorrow to repitch the yeast. Go get some yeast and concentrate and I will work on some further instructions.


Don't worry my friend we will save this one and make something great!*Edited by: masta *


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## OilnH2O (Jun 10, 2006)

Off to get the yeast -- and "energizer" -- that isn't the same as nutrient is it? I've used diamoniam phosphate in lieu of the commercial "yeast nutrient" but can pick up the "yeast nutrient" as well!


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## grapeman (Jun 10, 2006)

The Cotes Des Blanc is a good choice for this type of wine. If you can get it at that store you could use that one. Since you are having a hard time getting it going, you could go to a stronger starter, but it will ferment out dryer. You could always back-sweeten later. I like Lalvin 71B-1122 for hard starters and it finishes out smooth. Get the yeast before they close and then decide what to increase the batch with. This is why I always keep a half dozen types of yeast on hand.


Good Luck


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## OilnH2O (Jun 10, 2006)

ok...let's see, SHOPPING LIST:


Red Star Cote d blancs AND Premier Cuvee'


Lalvin K1V-1116 AND 71B-1122


Some yeast ENERGIZER and some yeast NUTRIENT


...and some Welch's RED grape concentrate.


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## OilnH2O (Jun 10, 2006)

BTW...


I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested..."Gee, since you're going to the wine store, why not pick up an extra CARBOY as well!"


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## masta (Jun 10, 2006)

Yes I was just thinking that...need a 3 gallon for this project!


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## OilnH2O (Jun 10, 2006)

Ok...got the shopping list above, plus a new 3-gallon glass carboy, bungs, airlocks, yeast energizer -- have NOT picked up the red Welchs yet -- but easily enough done -- wondering if I should use the Welch's or think about frozen raspberries -- but I'd like to retain the rhubarb flavor as much as possible, and I know rhubarb flavor tends to be masked pretty easily... I'd end up with a wine that was more raspberry than rhubarb I think...but I don't want to go buy another 5 lbs of rhubarb and mash it all again! Scott, what are your ideas?


Oh, while it's not Appleman's recommendation of "a half-dozen" I now have more yeasts in the fridge than potential projects! BUT, I'm sure someone will suggest a use for them!



*Edited by: OilnH2O *


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## masta (Jun 10, 2006)

My suggestion is to get some Welchesgrape concentrate or bottled juice to help with the body since you don't have enough rhubarb for 3 gallons. 


Transfer your must back to the primary and add sediment from before. Bring the volume up to ~3 gallons and adjust the SG to 1.085-1.090with sugar.


Stir the daylights out of the must and leave uncovered overnight to help dissipate some of the sulfites. You could cover with a thin towel to keep out any critters but don't seal it up tight.


Tomorrow stir it again and double check SG.


Add 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient and 1 tsp yeast energizer and stir again well.


Sprinkle the yeast on top of your well stirred and aerated must. I would choose either the Lalvin K1V-1116 or Red Star Premier Cuvée.


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## OilnH2O (Jun 11, 2006)

masta said:


> My suggestion is to get some Welchesgrape concentrate or bottled juice to help with the body




Scott, I looked and found frozen Welch's Concord Grape "cocktail" and Welch's concentrated grape juice made "from Welch's own concord grapes..." But NO "Welch's red grape concentrate" nor any bottled juice. Is there a specific I should look for -- should I avoid other brands (store brands, Old Orchard, etc.)? Or, is the bottled juice a particular brand/style?


Everything else is ready to go -- and I've "stirred the snot" out of it -- foaming WAY down and negligible now. 


Dave


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## masta (Jun 11, 2006)

I know that Welch's 100% grape juice and juice cocktailproducts except for the white grape juice do not contain sulfite. This would be my main concern about using any other brand since I do know if they contain any sulfite which you don't need at this point.


*Do Welch's juice products contain preservatives?*
Welch's Purple 100% Grape Juice and juice cocktails do not contain preservatives. Welch's 100% White Grape Juice, however, does contain the preservative potassium metabisulfite, which is added to prevent browning and maintain color. Welch's Sparkling Juice Cocktails do contain the preservatives sodium benzoate and potassium metabisulfite.


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## OilnH2O (Jun 11, 2006)

AHA!


I just went to the Welch's website and it appears I'm okay! 


I have "Welch's 100% Grape Juice" with the banner that says "As always, made from Welch's own Concord Grapes" -- so I'm pretty sure this is the ticket!


I'm off to follow your directions and turn this rhubarb into a "grap-barb"


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## masta (Jun 11, 2006)

Cool...keep us posted on the "grap-barb" and hope you are keeping good notes so you can repeat this recipe when it turns out to be a great wine!


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## OilnH2O (Jun 11, 2006)

I'll keep you posted -- but I don't know how you can have the recipe include 10 times the sulfite needed -- then remove it! But, "we'll see!"


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## masta (Jun 12, 2006)

If the free SO2 level was at 250 ppm to start and you increased the volume from 1 gal to 3 gal then in theory the numbers should be cut in by 1/3 to ~85 ppm even without counting any reduction from the extra stirring.


At this level you should not have any issue with too much sulfite for the yeast to handle.


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## OilnH2O (Jun 12, 2006)

Ok-- I guess we'll see what happens! Thanks for the help!


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## masta (Jun 12, 2006)

I except nothing but total and complete success !! 


If not..... time to try plan "B"


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## earl (Jun 12, 2006)

Oil


250 ppm is a bunch but not too bad as far as free SO2. When you first add sulfur a bunch of it is given off as SO2 in gasous form. This will typically kill a bunch of yeast, good and bad. That is why it is best to wait 24 hours before pitching the yeast. The 24 hours will allow the excess sulfur to dissipate. 


Wine yeast is just like regular yeast but it has a special "pumping" mechanism to rid itself of SO2. You can easily overwhelm this mechanism by the addition of too much sulfur. What a great idea to divide the batches. It allows you to lower SO2 and also expirament a little with different yeasts and maybe flavorings.


earl


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## OilnH2O (Jun 12, 2006)

I kept the batches together -- and ended up adding grape concentrate (Welch's) and so it will be a "grape-rhubarb" or "rhubarb-grape" or something like that! Splitting batches will be for later when I can get at least ONE thing right! (My lilac has problems too -- see the general winemaking site!) This rhubarb and the lilac are the first two "scratch" wines (other than kits) I've tried, so I feel like I'm building the airplane as it's flying






UPDATE on June 13 -- fermenting to beat the band, and a great "cap" on top! Thanks, MASTA!



*Edited by: OilnH2O *


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## B M W (Jun 13, 2006)

OilnH20,


I'm glad you got it going. After reading all you problems with the rhubarb, I'm almost afraid to start mine. My plans are to make 3 gals. rhubarb and 3 gals. strawberry/rhubarb. I hope to get it started soon.


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## OilnH2O (Jun 14, 2006)

The biggest problem with the rhubarb was cutting 7 pounds into 3/8 to 1/2 inches to begin the whole process! But, I must admit that the aroma was okay, and I almost hated to add the grape concentrate (because I knew it might take away from the rhubarb flavor). But, it's going great guns right now and I'd say to go ahead and try it. I did find a few different recipes though -- and my problem was not rhubarb, but ME! I substituted a 1/4 tsp of k-meta powder for 1 campden tablet and ended up added 10 times what was needed -- which KILLED the yeast!






(But I'm learning!)


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## masta (Jun 14, 2006)

I am glad to see your grapbarb or rhubrape is doing well.






If you make a mistake and don't learn anything from it then that is the biggest problem. Many issues or mistakes done while making wine can be corrected and I am glad you posted this thread since it adds lots of value to others.


I would think cutting up the rhubarb and then freezing it and thawing to make the wine would help break down the cellular structure as it does with many other fruits.


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## OilnH2O (Jun 14, 2006)

If I had to do it over again, BMW, I would have done just as Masta says, but the Jack Keller recipe didn't say anything about freezing. But, considering how the fibers of the rhubarb DULLED my knives to the point where I used the steel several times, freezing rhubarb is probably a GREAT idea! 


Making mistakes actually gives you confidence too -- the JK recipe says to rack to the secondary after only leaving in the primary overnight, but I think I'll wait at least a couple of days -- the fermentation is _VIGOROUS!_ And, the smell is something else -- if it were under airlock I'd think it would be pretty noisy as well!


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## B M W (Jun 14, 2006)

I agree with Masta also, I know from cooking with rhubarb that it has better flavor and more juiceif I freeze it first. I did cut and freeze my rhubarb (26 lbs) it's still in the freezer. I know what you mean about the knife, my son was using it to cut up more rhubarb (he wants pie) and it is dull. Time for the knife to take a trip to see my dad again and it will be as good as new (thank God for Dads they seem to know how to fix everything).


I'll keep you posted when I get mine started, it will be a couple of weeks, we are remodelinga big portion of the houseand all of my wine making stuffis in a temporary location (the bedroom) as soon as I get my kitchen back together I will be good to go with my wine making. So I will be reading and learning from your/everyones posts, it's so nice to have everyone share their experiences here what a great source of information.


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