# Spectacular Petit Verdot batch



## Bartman (Mar 13, 2015)

I haven't been posting as much the last several months as my winemaking has slowed down somewhat in the last year or two - I have over a hundred bottles in storage and my wife has cut back on on wine-drinking to cut calories. I'm still making wine, just not as frequently - which also means my wines are bulk aging longer before bottling.
In October 2013, I had orders from various family members for some different blend and varietals from fresh grapes ordered thru Fine Vine Wines here in Dallas. One of those was for Petit Verdot, even though I knew little about it and had no experience with what it should taste like it. Apparently, a commercial single-varietal Petit Verdot is fairly rare and somewhat expensive -since then I have only seen 3 100% Petit Verdot's in wine shops. It is traditionally a blending wine in French wines, especially Bordeauxs, and usually a small percentage as it has a strong flavor.
I used RC-212 Bourgovin yeast on 3 lugs of very nice looking grapes around Halloween 2013, racked it a couple times, left an American Oak spiral in the 6-gallon carboy for about 6 months, and left it to bulk age until mid-January 2015 (I planned on bottling before last fall's harvest/crushing/pressing but didn't need it, so I let it sit).
Opened the first bottle about a week ago with a big steak, and we were overwhelmed by how delicious it was! A heavy wine, like a cabernet sauvignon, but with a more subtle flavor. Not too fruity, but with a smooth long finish. 
It was one of the more expensive varietals available as I recall (like $70/lug compared to $56 for Shiraz), but it made a great wine! The more wine I make, the more value I see in bulk-aging fresh grapes - and more so in fresh grape wines vs. kits.
Anybody else have an opinion about Petit Verdots or similar experiences? I can't say I know what a Petit Verdot should taste like, but we sure like this one! Wish we had more than a handful of these bottles left.


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## ibglowin (Mar 13, 2015)

When I got fresh grapes from FVW in 2011 I got 3 lugs of PV as well. That was a bad year and I had some problems with that one as well as the Cab Franc. In the end it turned out OK and I was able to get rid of my issues and I used it as a blender in a bunch of Bordeaux blends. In fact I gave you one of them when we had our meet and greet last Summer. I have a Magnum of PV leftover from that year and its sitting in the cellar gathering some dust on the bottle as they say. Perhaps its time to visit it.

Fresh grapes is more work but produces what I am looking for in a bottle of wine. Kits were never able to do that for me.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 13, 2015)

Bart,

Sounds like you have a real winner on your hands. I don't have PV available, but was looking for it last year during Chilean harvest. Been meaning to try a single variteal, but haven't looked in stores too much for it. Maybe I should have pre-ordered the Kenridge LR PV.


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## ibglowin (Mar 13, 2015)

One of my favorite (of which there are many) WA State wineries Saviah Cellars makes some pure PV as well as Cab Franc.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 13, 2015)

Sounds fantastic, Bartman. Were the grapes from Cali? Do you know where, by any chance? (Just idle curiosity, really.)

I have long been intrigued by the concept of a single-varietal PV. I have a WE Selection International Australian PV finishing up secondary now. If I understand things correctly, Aussie PV is not quite as intense as French PV (which, of course, is never made into a single varietal wine). I have no idea if a kit Aussie PV is representative of Aussie PVs in general. I will have to try to get my hands on a commercial one sometime.


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## ibglowin (Mar 13, 2015)

FVW gets their grapes from F. Colavita & Son (Lodi, CA)



sour_grapes said:


> Sounds fantastic, Bartman. Were the grapes from Cali? Do you know where, by any chance? (Just idle curiosity, really.)


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## desertrat (Mar 14, 2015)

Had to chime in here. I started wine making in 2013 and one of my first batches was a Petit Verdot fermented with RC212. About a year later it became my favorite wine. Grapes were from the Madera area which is just south of Lodi. Bought more lugs last year and so far it is coming along nicely.


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## sdelli (Mar 14, 2015)

I order grapes with a group of people every fall from the Chalk Hill area.... Every year I include about 100lbs. Of Petite Verdot with my order. I make a lot of Cab from that area and I use about 5% Petite Verdot in my Cab at blending time. Have not bottled 2013 yet but getting close. I ferment with BM 4X4 yeast and barrel it for a year. Great wine!


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## olusteebus (Mar 14, 2015)

Last month Wine Maker magazine had a great article on petit verdo wine. Made me want to make some somedayh.


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## zalai (Mar 14, 2015)

If anyone would like to make a Petit Verdot kit here is an other option by Vineco :

New Passport Series Limited Releases!

Petit Verdot – Released for December 2014

Washington – Yakima Valley

Alc./vol: 13.5% | Body: Full | Sweetness: Dry

THE WINE

Traditionally used in Bordeaux blends to give colour and aromatics, Petit Verdot produces a bold, well structured wine on its own. Expect intense colour and aromas of vanilla, cedar and smoke, followed by ripe cherry and blackberry flavours. This full bodied wine has warm undertones of mocha, firm tannins, and a rich and robust finish.

THE REGION

Located in the southern center of the state, just across from the Cascade Mountains, Yakima Valley is home to some of Washington’s oldest vineyards. With a balance of warm days, cool nights, and controlled water, the Yakima Valley produces fully mature fruit. The valley receives less than 150 mm of rain per year so the vines rely on irrigation which growers can control, resulting in fruit with great concentration and flavour.


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## Norton (Mar 14, 2015)

PV is my new favorite. I got a bottle at a new nearby winery and was blown away. I got an Australian kit and it was ok, but not near what I was hoping for.,so I will be looking out for other PV options.


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## Bartman (Mar 15, 2015)

ibglowin said:


> FVW gets their grapes from F. Colavita & Son (Lodi, CA)





sour_grapes said:


> Sounds fantastic, Bartman. Were the grapes from Cali? Do you know where, by any chance? (Just idle curiosity, really.)



As Mike said, all of FVW's fresh grape shipments have come through F. Colavita & Son. I have never been disappointed with their product, although I have gotten some lower quality grapes from other sources. 

Every year, George at FVW threatens to quit organizing the shipment of fresh grapes - but this year I think he may be serious as the volume of orders has declined enough that the freight costs make it too expensive on a per-lug basis. It's hard to convince kit winemakers to switch to the higher-cost, more challenging fresh grape wine making, if they are satisfied with the kits. But I make very few kits anymore - just specialty wines/ports/dessert wines.


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## sdelli (Mar 15, 2015)

I used to make some kits when I started.... I only make wine from grapes now... I am sure there are conversations on how kit wine is as good of quality as grapes.... I can taste the difference every time. You can continue to make wine from grapes or frozen must on your own without your friends.... Just may cost a little more. Shopping for grapes and must is one of the times in life I do not use price as the factor as much as quality. But that is what is so great about this hobby. It has a place for everyone of interest!!!


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## desertrat (Mar 15, 2015)

It doesn't have to be expensive to use fresh grapes. I get my grapes through a local produce company that organizes a yearly event typically the second Sunday in September. They offer 20 types of grapes at $33 to $40 a lug and 23 types of 5.3 gallon fresh juice pails at $42 to $51 each. Petit Verdot goes for $36 a lug. Produce companies already have the distribution and required storage facilities in place so that may be the best way to go. I assume they add the grapes to their standard produce deliveries.


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## heatherd (Mar 15, 2015)

Harford Vineyard here in Maryland sells Chilean Petit Verdot for $29.50 per lug.

I haven't made PV from grapes yet, but am making a kit now; it's last year's limited production monastrell petit verdot. So I went to the wine store to buy a couple of bottles of commercial PV for topping and taste testing. The wine store staff are well versed in their trade. However they had not heard of it and we combed the store and only came up with blends, nothing more than 15% PV. I have tried a couple places with no luck. My wine is bulk aging, I will have to steal a taste to finally have single varietal petit verdot.

I was also looking for Nero d'avola on that shopping trip - luckily they had one bottle left.

Heather


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 16, 2015)

I took my Monastrell Petit Verdot out of the barrel a couple weeks ago. It's excellent. Couldn't find any PV when I needed to top it up, but was able to find Monastrell. 

Didn't realized Harford had PV this year. Because of my upcoming move, I'm skipping the Chilean harvest this time around.


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## heatherd (Mar 17, 2015)

I am slightly embarrassed to admit that I misunderstood the kit and thought monastrell was the style and PV the varietal. Ha!


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## heatherd (Mar 17, 2015)

How far are you moving Jim?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 17, 2015)

heatherd said:


> How far are you moving Jim?



Not too far - about 20 minutes. From Prince William County into Western Fairfax. Chantilly, to be specific.


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## heatherd (Mar 17, 2015)

You'll have to scout out some new spots to get grapes around there!


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 18, 2015)

heatherd said:


> You'll have to scout out some new spots to get grapes around there!



Harford is still my game. Actually, I'll now be about 20 minutes closer.


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## wineinmd (Mar 18, 2015)

I'm not too far from there. I'll have to remember to check in on things later in the year.

How much wine does one get from a lug of grapes?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 18, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> I'm not too far from there. I'll have to remember to check in on things later in the year.
> 
> How much wine does one get from a lug of grapes?



No need to wait until later this year. They're taking orders for Chilean juice and grapes now. 

Prices vary, but you can take a look at their website for specifics. (harfordvineyard.com)


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## heatherd (Mar 18, 2015)

And if you hustle you may be able to preorder the South African Pinotage grapes.

Everything you can pre-order is on their web store. You pay half up front and the other half when you pick stuff up.

I placed Chilean and South African preorders already.... 

They'll also have California, Italy, and Maryland juice buckets and grapes in the fall. You should be able to see those varieties but not yet place the order online. They crush and destem for $25, which is nice for me b/c I don't have space for the equipment.

They also sell barrels, supplies, etc.

You can subscribe to get emails to find out when they have stuff ready for preorder.

Heather


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## ceeaton (Mar 18, 2015)

Heather,

Is the $25 to crush and destem for multiple lugs or per lug? Just curious, I only ordered one lug with a bucket and plan on the kids doing it, but in the future (fall) I might just do a whole lot more.


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## heatherd (Mar 18, 2015)

Flat fee. Last time I ordered, I got a bucket of Zinfandel and a bucket of Cab Franc, with a lug of grapes for each. There was a single fee to crush and destem both lugs.


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## ceeaton (Mar 18, 2015)

Heather,

One last question. Is there a good place to eat down around the Harford winery? Good to me means good food and less than $50 for two. My wife and I are trying to plan an escape from our four kids for a few hours when the buckets/grapes come in. Thanks for any suggestions.


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## heatherd (Mar 18, 2015)

ceeaton said:


> Heather,
> 
> One last question. Is there a good place to eat down around the Harford winery? Good to me means good food and less than $50 for two. My wife and I are trying to plan an escape from our four kids for a few hours when the buckets/grapes come in. Thanks for any suggestions.



When I took the family on one of my Harford runs, we ate at Enotria in Forest Hill, which is Italian. http://www.enotriarestaurant.com/ It was good food and had a pretty nice selection of wine.

Although I saved my wine consumption for Harford b/c I am a fan of their wines, especially the traiminette and crimson moon.


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## ceeaton (Mar 18, 2015)

Heather,

Thank you for the recommendation. We are just hoping for a few hours without children, which doesn't happen many times a year and must be planned like a bank heist. Italian is right up our alley.

The Crimson Moon description intrigued me since I love Merlot wines (that is the bucket I pre-ordered). My wife likes a semi-sweet red, so we may have to buy a few bottles to taste test when we pick up the juice.

Thanks!


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## Bartman (Mar 19, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> I'm not too far from there. I'll have to remember to check in on things later in the year.
> 
> How much wine does one get from a lug of grapes?


One lug of grapes yields around 2 gallons of juice depending on the 'juiciness' of the grapes. Generally, less juicy is considered better in wine grapes (opposite of table grapes), because the flavor and sugar are more concentrated then; typically, a late rain can make ripening grapes 'extra' juicy.

In my experience, I have gotten up to 2.5 gallons from a lug, but never less than 2 gallons.


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## wineinmd (Mar 19, 2015)

Bartman said:


> One lug of grapes yields around 2 gallons of juice depending on the 'juiciness' of the grapes. Generally, less juicy is considered better in wine grapes (opposite of table grapes), because the flavor and sugar are more concentrated then; typically, a late rain can make ripening grapes 'extra' juicy.
> 
> In my experience, I have gotten up to 2.5 gallons from a lug, but never less than 2 gallons.



Awesome. Thanks. I guess that means 3 lugs for a full batch. 

Are there any 'home' methods for pressing or is it worth it to pay them?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 19, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> Awesome. Thanks. I guess that means 3 lugs for a full batch.
> 
> Are there any 'home' methods for pressing or is it worth it to pay them?



It should be noted that the Chilean (and I believe South African) lugs are 18lbs. These yield about 1-1.5 gallons of juice. For planning purposes, I use 1.25. California lugs are 36lbs and yield about 2.5 gallons. 

Pressing, I don't think they do. When you're dealing with grapes, you have crushing/destemming, then pressing. Crushing/desteming is simply removing the grapes from the stems, then breaking them open so that the yeast can get in there and do their thing. Pressing is done when you're nearing the end of fermentation and is simply squeezing the juice out of the grapes, leaving the skins and seeds behind. 

If you're thinking of getting into fresh juice and/or grapes, going with a juice bucket and adding a lug of grapes is a great way to start without having to invest in any additional equipment. You can buy 6 gallons of juice for $50 or $60 and the lug of grapes will cost you about another 27 or 28. Yeast, nutrients, malolactic bacteria, etc will run you another $30 or so. In the end, you'll get around 7 gallons of wine for roughly $100. Not a bad deal. 18lbs of grapes is a very manageable quantity. You can destem and crush by hand, add the grapes to a mesh paint strainer bag and put the bag into the juice. When you get near the end of fermentation, just remove the bag and squeeze out the juice. I did this a few years ago for my first attempt and it worked out pretty well. I chronicled the progress here:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f60/chilean-wine-adventure-38422/


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## wineinmd (Mar 19, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> It should be noted that the Chilean (and I believe South African) lugs are 18lbs. These yield about 1-1.5 gallons of juice. For planning purposes, I use 1.25. California lugs are 36lbs and yield about 2.5 gallons.
> 
> Pressing, I don't think they do. When you're dealing with grapes, you have crushing/destemming, then pressing. Crushing/desteming is simply removing the grapes from the stems, then breaking them open so that the yeast can get in there and do their thing. Pressing is done when you're nearing the end of fermentation and is simply squeezing the juice out of the grapes, leaving the skins and seeds behind.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info and the link. I really like the juice + grapes idea. 

I only have one 6 gallon carboy at this point from my brewing adventures and my Sauv Blanc will be moved into it in about a week, so I won't have a home for anything else for a little while. When will the Chilean juice/grapes be available? I imagine I should use them right away. 

I also don't have a barrel and likely won't for a while. How big of a consideration should that be? Your thread makes it sound like the barrel time was a big plus. Granted, I don't have the most discerning palate at this point so it probably won't matter for me. 

Which Chilean variety is a good one for a nice dry red? Would it work to mix varieties? Say, Cabernet juice with Petite Verdot grapes?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 19, 2015)

The Chilean goodies have come in around the 2nd week of May the last two years. The barrel really kicks up your game, but it is not a requirement. You can still get oak essence using cubes or staves and would only be missing the microoxidation and concentration that the barrel brings. Carmenere and Malbec are two popular Chilean wines. I did both my first time. Last year, I went whole grapes and have a 50/50 cabernet merlot blend. I like your idea of Cab juice with PV grapes. One of my favorite commercial Chilean wines is a blend of 92% Carmenere and 8% Petit Verdot. That's what I'd be making this year, were I not skipping the Chilean harvest due to a move.


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## wineinmd (Mar 19, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> The Chilean goodies have come in around the 2nd week of May the last two years. The barrel really kicks up your game, but it is not a requirement. You can still get oak essence using cubes or staves and would only be missing the microoxidation and concentration that the barrel brings. Carmenere and Malbec are two popular Chilean wines. I did both my first time. Last year, I went whole grapes and have a 50/50 cabernet merlot blend. I like your idea of Cab juice with PV grapes. One of my favorite commercial Chilean wines is a blend of 92% Carmenere and 8% Petit Verdot. That's what I'd be making this year, were I not skipping the Chilean harvest due to a move.


Hmmm. The 2nd week of May just might work. Any idea when the sale ends? I've never tried Carmenere before. 

In your other thread, it sounds like you split the juice. In the interest of using my available equipment, could I split the juice into my 6.5g beer fermenting bucket and my 7.9g wine bucket? I imagine I would just split the juice and grapes between the two. I have a 1 gallon bottle so I could use that and the 6 gallon carboy that I can transfer the 7 gallons into. 

I don't know if I'm putting the horse way in front of the cart here and if I might be better served by making more than one kit before trying my hand with juice and grapes, but it sounds like fun.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 19, 2015)

I had to split the batches into two buckets because of the grape addition. The juice buckets come with only about an inch of headspace and adding 18lbs of grapes would have resulted in a certain overflow, once fermentation got going. So I kept half the juice in the bucket it came in and the rest in another bucket (your existing fermenter will do just fine).

This is a good excuse to get another carboy. Don't rush that Sauv Blanc along.


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## wineinmd (Mar 19, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> I had to split the batches into two buckets because of the grape addition. The juice buckets come with only about an inch of headspace and adding 18lbs of grapes would have resulted in a certain overflow, once fermentation got going. So I kept half the juice in the bucket it came in and the rest in another bucket (your existing fermenter will do just fine).
> 
> This is a good excuse to get another carboy. Don't rush that Sauv Blanc along.


I never considered using the bucket it came in. Do you just rest the lid on top of the bucket or do you have a way of sealing it? I'm coming from the brewing world where everything gets airlocked. 

I've got my eye out for another carboy, but I'm trying to keep expenses down for now. If I get the juice and grapes during the 2nd week of May and add in the time it will spend in the buckets, that will give me about 6-7 weeks of the Sauv Blanc in the carboy. I know beer kits are notorious for giving unrealistically short timeframes. Is that the case here as well? 

I appreciate all the advice so far. I'm really enjoying learning about all this.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 20, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> I never considered using the bucket it came in. Do you just rest the lid on top of the bucket or do you have a way of sealing it? I'm coming from the brewing world where everything gets airlocked.
> 
> I've got my eye out for another carboy, but I'm trying to keep expenses down for now. If I get the juice and grapes during the 2nd week of May and add in the time it will spend in the buckets, that will give me about 6-7 weeks of the Sauv Blanc in the carboy. I know beer kits are notorious for giving unrealistically short timeframes. Is that the case here as well?
> 
> I appreciate all the advice so far. I'm really enjoying learning about all this.



For primary, some people airlock, some just set the lid on top of the bucket, some just cover with a towel. Once you're in secondary, you need the airlock. 

Wine kit manufacturers' directions are fine to follow. With their timeline, the wine is drinkable. But it improves tremendously with more time. That's not good for sales though. 

We've taken this WAY off topic from the OP. Is there a Mod that might be able to split the thread?


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## ceeaton (Mar 20, 2015)

Maybe they could attach it to the *Chilean harvest 2015 at Harford Vineyard* thread. I've got some more Juice bucket questions to ask you and Heather since I've never done one before. (Maybe I could just order some Petit Verdot grapes and we could keep it on this thread)


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## heatherd (Mar 20, 2015)

Happy to answer any questions, the jump from kit to pail+grapes is something I have enjoyed and might have done sooner if I knew more about how to do things. I'll still do kits, but will make the most of what's in season first.

We can move over to the Harford 2015 thread, though....

Heather


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