# MLF and Juice Buckets



## RegionRat

I have 3 - 6gal juice buckets actively fermenting. Merlot Syrah, and Malbec. They are, as of this morning , sitting around sg1.050, PH all 3 is in the 3.5is range. It was sugested to me when I picked up the juice to do MLF on them. I did not test for, nor did I sulfite any of the buckets.

I asked at the local wine supply shop and was told to use White Labs DYWM9 but he was out of it. I orders it online and was told they only had Wyeast 4007. TheDYWM9 I read you pitch at 1.020, the Wyeast 4007 I understand you pitch pitch when dry. I also read to be careful when adding Opti Malo Plus. Unconsumed Opti Malo Plus can add an off flavor. I also read do not sulfite till MLF is complete.

I kinda wanted to use the Withlabs because it is introduced during primary fermentation. The Wyeast is at the end and I read you have to monitor it till it is done, mix up the fine lee every day and purge with inert gas till MFL is complete. It sounds like it needs more attention then I am willing to give it right now.

Should I just skip the MLF? Can I do MLF later when I have more time?

Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks,

RR


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## robie

RegionRat said:


> I have 3 - 6gal juice buckets actively fermenting. Merlot Syrah, and Malbec. They are, as of this morning , sitting around sg1.050, PH all 3 is in the 3.5is range. It was sugested to me when I picked up the juice to do MLF on them. I did not test for, nor did I sulfite any of the buckets.
> 
> I asked at the local wine supply shop and was told to use White Labs DYWM9 but he was out of it. I orders it online and was told they only had Wyeast 4007. TheDYWM9 I read you pitch at 1.020, the Wyeast 4007 I understand you pitch pitch when dry. I also read to be careful when adding Opti Malo Plus. Unconsumed Opti Malo Plus can add an off flavor. I also read do not sulfite till MLF is complete.
> 
> Any advice would be helpful.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> RR



There are two types of Wyeast 4007 - (ER1A & Ey2d), one for whites, one for reds.
Just follow the instructions and use the proper one and maintain the appropriate temperature.

_*Product:*  Malo-Lactic Cultures (Oenococcus oeni) ER1A, Ey2D & 4007 Blend (ER1A & Ey2d) *Description:* A liquid suspension of Oenococcus oeni grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient enriched medium. This product will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in high acid wines. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months. ER1A is an excellent choice for red wines, it was isolated for it tolerance to low pH conditions. Ey2D is suggested for white wines, it has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. 4007 Blend will cover a broad range of temperatures and pH conditions. *Instructions for use:* Sanitize package before opening. Pour the contents into wine that has completed or nearly completed alcoholic fermentation. Free SO2 levels should be less than 15 ppm. *Inoculation Rate:* Directly inoculates juice or must at 0.5% (1 liter culture per 55 gallons of must). *Fermentation Temps:* ER1A should be between 70[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F to 90[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F 
Ey2D should be between 55[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F to 75[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT] 
*Stability:* Best when used fresh; use within 14 days of receipt. *Packaging:* Depending on volumes, culture is packaged in a 1 liter foil pouch or 1 - 2.5 gal cubitainers._

You really do need to use a Chromatography test to monitor the MLF and to determine when it is finished as it will take 1 to 3 months to complete. You can order it from several places like More Wines.

You don't sulfite until MLF is completed. Just don't over dose with the MLF nutrient and you will be fine.

During MLF, keep the wine topped off and under an air lock.


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## RegionRat

robie said:


> There are two types of Wyeast 4007 - (ER1A & Ey2d), one for whites, one for reds.
> Just follow the instructions and use the proper one and maintain the appropriate temperature.
> 
> _*Product:* Malo-Lactic Cultures (Oenococcus oeni) ER1A, Ey2D & 4007 Blend (ER1A & Ey2d) *Description:* A liquid suspension of Oenococcus oeni grown in a sterile organic juice based nutrient enriched medium. This product will provide rapid and complete malic acid reduction in high acid wines. Malic acid reduction will balance and soften wine while enhancing flavor and aroma characteristics including vanilla and buttery notes. Malo-lactic conversion is generally completed within 1-3 months. ER1A is an excellent choice for red wines, it was isolated for it tolerance to low pH conditions. Ey2D is suggested for white wines, it has been selected for it tolerance to low cellar temperatures. 4007 Blend will cover a broad range of temperatures and pH conditions. *Instructions for use:* Sanitize package before opening. Pour the contents into wine that has completed or nearly completed alcoholic fermentation. Free SO2 levels should be less than 15 ppm. *Inoculation Rate:* Directly inoculates juice or must at 0.5% (1 liter culture per 55 gallons of must). *Fermentation Temps:* ER1A should be between 70[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F to 90[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F
> Ey2D should be between 55[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]F to 75[FONT=&quot]°[/FONT]
> *Stability:* Best when used fresh; use within 14 days of receipt. *Packaging:* Depending on volumes, culture is packaged in a 1 liter foil pouch or 1 - 2.5 gal cubitainers._
> 
> You really do need to use a Chromatography test to monitor the MLF and to determine when it is finished as it will take 1 to 3 months to complete. You can order it from several places like More Wines.
> 
> You don't sulfite until MLF is completed. Just don't over dose with the MLF nutrient and you will be fine.
> 
> During MLF, keep the wine topped off and under an air lock.




Thanks for the reply,

The one coming is blend of ER1A and Ey2d, I assume it is for red wines.

I do have Chromatography testing stuff. 

You say , "Just don't over dose with the MLF nutrient." How much is too much?

RR


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## sdelli

I used White labs wlp675 and worked great. I also read in White Labs paperwork it is impossible to over inoculate with the culture... You just waste your money by adding too much.


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## robie

sdelli said:


> I used White labs wlp675 and worked great. I also read in White Labs paperwork it is impossible to over inoculate with the culture... You just waste your money by adding too much.



Yep, can't really over inoculate with the MLB. I think RegionRat is worried about over dosing with the MLF nutrient and causing an off taste.

I have never used that particular nutrient brand. Not trying to be vague, just follow the instructions. If you are concerned, just use 2/3's of what the instructions recommend or switch to another brand. Long ago, before they even knew what an MLF was or what exactly was happening to their wine, MLF's were spontaneous; they certainly would not have been using special nutrients. If you do start your MLF before alcohol fermentation is completed, you don't need to add as much MLF nutrient anyway, the "stuff" present during that fermentation will supply some nutrients.


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## Pumpkinman

Sorry to chime in on this late in the discussion.
I have read mostly bad things about White Labs malolactic Bacteria, you would be better suited in getting bacchus malolactic bacteria, or Lalvin 31 or VP41.
This info comes from winemakers with many years of experience, and I can only pass it along to you. Don't get me wrong, it can work, but as far as an effeicient MLB, it is on the lower end of the scale. I'd use a higher quality product.
You cannot really over dose with Malolactic bacteria, as stated, you can however over dose on the nutrients.


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## RegionRat

Pumpkinman said:


> Sorry to chime in on this late in the discussion.
> I have read mostly bad things about White Labs malolactic Bacteria, you would be better suited in getting bacchus malolactic bacteria, or Lalvin 31 or VP41.
> This info comes from winemakers with many years of experience, and I can only pass it along to you. Don't get me wrong, it can work, but as far as an effeicient MLB, it is on the lower end of the scale. I'd use a higher quality product.
> You cannot really over dose with Malolactic bacteria, as stated, you can however over dose on the nutrients.





robie said:


> Yep, can't really over inoculate with the MLB. I think RegionRat is worried about over dosing with the MLF nutrient and causing an off taste.
> 
> I have never used that particular nutrient brand. Not trying to be vague, just follow the instructions. If you are concerned, just use 2/3's of what the instructions recommend or switch to another brand. Long ago, before they even knew what an MLF was or what exactly was happening to their wine, MLF's were spontaneous; they certainly would not have been using special nutrients. If you do start your MLF before alcohol fermentation is completed, you don't need to add as much MLF nutrient anyway, the "stuff" present during that fermentation will supply some nutrients.



Thanks, that is kinda the input I was kinda looking for. 

From what I read the fine lee in the wine after the wine ferments dry contains all the nutrient needed. I was worried about adding additional nutrient. I did read that you can add too much nutrient and produce an after taste. Do you add nutrient ?

The buckets in question are sitting around sg 1.025 or so. I plan on racking tonight or tomorrow. The Wyeast 4007 just arrived yesterday. If you think I would be better using bacchus malolactic bacteria, Lalvin 31 or VP41. Do I have time to find some, have it delivered, and introduce it?

Also I read to while MLF is ongoing, 1-3 months , I read to stir up the lee every few day. Then purge the head space with inert gas. Do I need to do this.

RR


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## sdelli

I don't add any nutrients... I don't stir that often and change the head gas either.... Might give the bottle a shake every now and then if it looks like it needs a kick in the butt a little.... I believe with wine always less is more if possible. Always more time is better then less if possible. Don't over think it.

Just me.......


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## Pumpkinman

I stir ever few days, never used any inert gas, not to say that it wouldn't be helpful, I've just never used it.
You can find Bacchus at Fine Wine Vines (one of our sponsors) by clicking here 
or at Midwest supply


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## Pumpkinman

I stir ever few days, never used any inert gas, not to say that it wouldn't be helpful, I've just never used it.
You can find Bacchus at Fine Wine Vines (one of our sponsors) by clicking here 
or at Midwest supply


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## RegionRat

Pumpkinman said:


> I stir ever few days, never used any inert gas, not to say that it wouldn't be helpful, I've just never used it.
> You can find Bacchus at Fine Wine Vines (one of our sponsors) by clicking here
> or at Midwest supply




Thanks, Ill order it in the morning.

RR


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## Pumpkinman

Always glad to help!


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## Mario Dinis

Hello everyone, I just came across this thread while researching Wyeast 4007. Like RegionRat, I also plan on doing a blend of Malbec, Syrah and Cabernet this year and would like to do MLF. I've read with interest all your opinions, but I do have a question. Can one do MLF without adding anything? And if yes, how is it done? Should I let the must sit for 3 months on it's lees after the first fermentation is finished and stir the lees once in awhile? I also use buckets of juice and carboys. Any help is highly appreciated.
Thank you


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## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Hello everyone, I just came across this thread while researching Wyeast 4007. Like RegionRat, I also plan on doing a blend of Malbec, Syrah and Cabernet this year and would like to do MLF. I've read with interest all your opinions, but I do have a question. Can one do MLF without adding anything? And if yes, how is it done? Should I let the must sit for 3 months on it's lees after the first fermentation is finished and stir the lees once in awhile? I also use buckets of juice and carboys. Any help is highly appreciated.
> Thank you



Much like you might be able to do ferments using the yeast that is on the grapes, you might be able to do MLF without adding your own bacteria. If you added any SO2 at the beginning, then my guess is that no you can't. If you have anything going against you, you can't. Trying to do it without adding Malolactic bacteria is probably not going to work very well. Also, I think I have only ever heard of one person having luck with the Wyeast 4007 Malolactic Bacteria. It is very picky about the conditions it will work in.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> Much like you might be able to do ferments using the yeast that is on the grapes, you might be able to do MLF without adding your own bacteria. If you added any SO2 at the beginning, then my guess is that no you can't. If you have anything going against you, you can't. Trying to do it without adding Malolactic bacteria is probably not going to work very well. Also, I think I have only ever heard of one person having luck with the Wyeast 4007 Malolactic Bacteria. It is very picky about the conditions it will work in.


Thanks for the input. I was just wondering and trying to do MLF this year. On a weekend trip to Maryland stopped by a suply store near Annapolis and asked questions and bought a pack of Wyeast ey2d. Recommended by the store owner. Only when I arrived home in NJ I took a better look at it and realized it's for white wine. I havery no use for it.


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## Mario Dinis

Hello everyone. Can this strand be used in red wine?


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Hello everyone. Can this strand be used in red wine?



It says it’s for wine, so it should be fine. I, and many others, have had poor success with the liquid MLB from that manufacturer. Just a heads up.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> It says it’s for wine, so it should be fine. I, and many others, have had poor success with the liquid MLB from that manufacturer. Just a heads up.


Ok, thanks for the information.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> It says it’s for wine, so it should be fine. I, and many others, have had poor success with the liquid MLB from that manufacturer. Just a heads up.


If this liquid MLB is not successful will it ruin the wine or will it have no effect whatsoever on it?


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> If this liquid MLB is not successful will it ruin the wine or will it have no effect whatsoever on it?



No, it won't ruin the wine if it doesn't complete MLF, it'll just won't convert the malic acid to lactic acid. If I were going to try that product again, I'd consider strongly inoculating the must with it just after lag phase of the yeast, it's a better environment for the MLB when there's little / no alcohol yet, and the warm fermentation temps will also help it along. You'll greatly increase your chances of success by feeding both the yeast and the MLB the proper nutrients.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> No, it won't ruin the wine if it doesn't complete MLF, it'll just won't convert the malic acid to lactic acid. If I were going to try that product again, I'd consider strongly inoculating the must with it just after lag phase of the yeast, it's a better environment for the MLB when there's little / no alcohol yet, and the warm fermentation temps will also help it along. You'll greatly increase your chances of success by feeding both the yeast and the MLB the proper nutrients.


Basically at the beginning of primary fermentation? what nutrients would you recomend?


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Basically at the beginning of primary fermentation? what nutrients would you recomend?



Yes, basically in the beginning of alcoholic fermentation, good timing is when you start to see visible activity or get your first cap. I prefer to use this product: https://morewinemaking.com/products/opti-malo.html


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Yes, basically in the beginning of alcoholic fermentation, good timing is when you start to see visible activity or get your first cap. I prefer to use this product: https://morewinemaking.com/products/opti-malo.html


Thanks. I'm assuming that when the first fermentation is over and the MLF is still going, using this method of course, the wine gets racked to a carboy (I use carboys) and topped off to avoid air exposure. Am I correct? I'm just trying to get an understanding on how to do a MLF for the first time.


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## sour_grapes

Mario Dinis said:


> Thanks. I'm assuming that when the first fermentation is over and the MLF is still going, using this method of course, the wine gets racked to a carboy (I use carboys) and topped off to avoid air exposure. Am I correct? I'm just trying to get an understanding on how to do a MLF for the first time.



Yup, that is right. Just don't add k-meta when you rack to carboys. (And your topping wine shouldn't be _heavily_ sulfited, for that matter, but I am probably overstating the case.)


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## cmason1957

sour_grapes said:


> Yup, that is right. Just don't add k-meta when you rack to carboys. (And your topping wine shouldn't be _heavily_ sulfited, for that matter, but I am probably overstating the case.)



You aren't over stating with the Wyeast MLB, my memory tells me that it can't handle over 15 or so PPM of sulphite. That pretty well means, don't add any when you first get the juice bucket, none when you rack to your carboy, none until MLF is complete and hope your chosen yeast doesn't make to much sulphites.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> You aren't over stating with the Wyeast MLB, my memory tells me that it can't handle over 15 or so PPM of sulphite. That pretty well means, don't add any when you first get the juice bucket, none when you rack to your carboy, none until MLF is complete and hope your chosen yeast doesn't make to much sulphites.


Thank you so much for your help, really appreciate it. I'm going to use D80 and D254 yeast this year. Also, can the carboy under MLF be topped off with similar store bought wine? Will a bottle make a difference in a 6 gallon carboy under MLF? asking this because of the sulphites issue.


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## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Thank you so much for your help, really appreciate it. I'm going to use D80 and D254 yeast this year. Also, can the carboy under MLF be topped off with similar store bought wine? Will a bottle make a difference in a 6 gallon carboy under MLF? asking this because of the sulphites issue.



I wouldn't top it up, when you first move it to secondary and hopefully your mlf finishes before to long, then the sulphites in the top up wine won't matter. They probably won't anyway, since they will get dispersed throughout the receiving wine.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I wouldn't top it up, when you first move it to secondary and hopefully your mlf finishes before to long, then the sulphites in the top up wine won't matter. They probably won't anyway, since they will get dispersed throughout the receiving wine.


Again, thanks for all these tips. It's my first attempt at MLF, I hope it comes out ok.


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## Mario Dinis

This link from More Winemaking is selling 2.5 g of VP41 and it's for 66 gal. Is this too much for two 6 gallon carboys? I read that a lot of you here have used this strain. Can someone help me out here with these numbers?


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> This link from More Winemaking is selling 2.5 g of VP41 and it's for 66 gal. Is this too much for two 6 gallon carboys? I read that a lot of you here have used this strain. Can someone help me out here with these numbers?



No, it's not too much, and VP41 is a very reliable workhorse MLB, it's the one that I use as well. Best practice with this stuff is to get the MLB, plus the ACTI-ML that you use to rehydrate it, plus the Opti-Malo that you use to feed it. When you rehydrate your MLB, just after AF gets started, use 250 ml of distilled water, mix in the 50 g package of ACTI-ML, then mix in your MLB. When you have it all mixed in well, just dump it into your fermenter and mix well. Add half the recommended dose of Opti-Malo, and forget about it for a while. Rack your wine out of your fermenter at SG of around 1.000, and let the wine sit in an airlocked carboy for 48-72 hours, then rack off of the gross lees, and add the second half dose of your Opti-Malo, top up the carboy, and let it sit for a couple of weeks, allowing MLF to complete. You could gently stir the sediment back up 2-3 times a week if you like. After the two weeks is up, start testing for completion, and once it's complete, let it sit for two more weeks, then rack (if you have sediment) and add your first dose of SO2. You can test for completion with either a paper chromotography kit, or malic test strips.

VP-41 is a bit pricey for just doing 6 gallons, but it doesn't come in any smaller packages.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> No, it's not too much, and VP41 is a very reliable workhorse MLB, it's the one that I use as well. Best practice with this stuff is to get the MLB, plus the ACTI-ML that you use to rehydrate it, plus the Opti-Malo that you use to feed it. When you rehydrate your MLB, just after AF gets started, use 250 ml of distilled water, mix in the 50 g package of ACTI-ML, then mix in your MLB. When you have it all mixed in well, just dump it into your fermenter and mix well. Add half the recommended dose of Opti-Malo, and forget about it for a while. Rack your wine out of your fermenter at SG of around 1.000, and let the wine sit in an airlocked carboy for 48-72 hours, then rack off of the gross lees, and add the second half dose of your Opti-Malo, top up the carboy, and let it sit for a couple of weeks, allowing MLF to complete. You could gently stir the sediment back up 2-3 times a week if you like. After the two weeks is up, start testing for completion, and once it's complete, let it sit for two more weeks, then rack (if you have sediment) and add your first dose of SO2. You can test for completion with either a paper chromotography kit, or malic test strips.
> 
> VP-41 is a bit pricey for just doing 6 gallons, but it doesn't come in any smaller packages.


Thanks for your information. I don't do grapes, I do juice, don't have the room to do the grapes. So based on this detail, can I split the package in half and use half in each 6 gal carboy? My other question is that I'm going to use D80 and D254 for Malec, Petite Sirah and Merlot. How is the SO2 build up with these two yeasts? read that some yeasts create a lot of SO2 which doesn't help with MLF.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> No, it's not too much, and VP41 is a very reliable workhorse MLB, it's the one that I use as well. Best practice with this stuff is to get the MLB, plus the ACTI-ML that you use to rehydrate it, plus the Opti-Malo that you use to feed it. When you rehydrate your MLB, just after AF gets started, use 250 ml of distilled water, mix in the 50 g package of ACTI-ML, then mix in your MLB. When you have it all mixed in well, just dump it into your fermenter and mix well. Add half the recommended dose of Opti-Malo, and forget about it for a while. Rack your wine out of your fermenter at SG of around 1.000, and let the wine sit in an airlocked carboy for 48-72 hours, then rack off of the gross lees, and add the second half dose of your Opti-Malo, top up the carboy, and let it sit for a couple of weeks, allowing MLF to complete. You could gently stir the sediment back up 2-3 times a week if you like. After the two weeks is up, start testing for completion, and once it's complete, let it sit for two more weeks, then rack (if you have sediment) and add your first dose of SO2. You can test for completion with either a paper chromotography kit, or malic test strips.
> 
> VP-41 is a bit pricey for just doing 6 gallons, but it doesn't come in any smaller packages.


What's your take on CH-16 vs VP-41?


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Thanks for your information. I don't do grapes, I do juice, don't have the room to do the grapes. So based on this detail, can I split the package in half and use half in each 6 gal carboy? My other question is that I'm going to use D80 and D254 for Malec, Petite Sirah and Merlot. How is the SO2 build up with these two yeasts? read that some yeasts create a lot of SO2 which doesn't help with MLF.



Yes. Once you have mixed the water, ACTI-ML, and MLB together, you can split it in half, or thirds, or quarters, whatever you need to do, and put it in, no worries.

I've used VP41 with both D80 and D254 with no issues, even with BM 4x4 (which is a moderate SO2 producer), and have never had an issue. Co-inoculating eases the stresses caused by SO2, and VP41 has a very good SO2 tolerance. As long as you don't add any sulfites, keep your pH above 3.3, temps in the 70 - 90 range, it should go off without a hitch.


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> What's your take on CH-16 vs VP-41?



I haven't used it personally, but lots of winemakers here have, and it does very well also.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Yes. Once you have mixed the water, ACTI-ML, and MLB together, you can split it in half, or thirds, or quarters, whatever you need to do, and put it in, no worries.
> 
> I've used VP41 with both D80 and D254 with no issues, even with BM 4x4 (which is a moderate SO2 producer), and have never had an issue. Co-inoculating eases the stresses caused by SO2, and VP41 has a very good SO2 tolerance. As long as you don't add any sulfites, keep your pH above 3.3, temps in the 70 - 90 range, it should go off without a hitch.


Thank you so much.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> I haven't used it personally, but lots of winemakers here have, and it does very well also.


Thank you so much


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## CDrew

Mario Dinis said:


> What's your take on CH-16 vs VP-41?



I’ve used CH16 the last 2 years and 5 different wines. 100% reliable so far. No need to hydrate - just add directly to the wine. Planning to use again this year starting with Syrah I’ll pick on Saturday.


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## Mario Dinis

Awesome, thank you. I'm planning on making Malbec, Petite Sirah and Merlot this year. First attempt at MLF.


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## Mario Dinis

CDrew said:


> I’ve used CH16 the last 2 years and 5 different wines. 100% reliable so far. No need to hydrate - just add directly to the wine. Planning to use again this year starting with Syrah I’ll pick on Saturday.


Awesome, thank you. I'm planning on making Malbec, Petite Sirah and Merlot this year. First attempt at MLF.


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## Mario Dinis

Hi again, can anyone recommend a decent and affordable chromatography test kit?


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## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Hi again, can anyone recommend a decent and affordable chromatography test kit?



This is the one many people purchase:

https://www.piwine.com/chromatography-test-kit-vertical-paper.html

If you aren't sure how committed you are to making red wines from grapes, you may consider these, I have used them and they work great, but eventually cost more:
https://www.amazon.com/Accuvin-Malic-Acid-Test-Kit/dp/B0064OFVUK


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Hi again, can anyone recommend a decent and affordable chromatography test kit?


This is the one that I use:
https://morewinemaking.com/products/chromatography-test-kit-wine-making.html

Comes with 25 sheets of chromo paper, so you can run 25 tests, with as many as 8 wines on each sheet.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> This is the one many people purchase:
> 
> https://www.piwine.com/chromatography-test-kit-vertical-paper.html
> 
> If you aren't sure how committed you are to making red wines from grapes, you may consider these, I have used them and they work great, but eventually cost more:
> https://www.amazon.com/Accuvin-Malic-Acid-Test-Kit/dp/B0064OFVUK


Looks like the Piwine one is the better one as far as price goes. I can't make wine from fresh grapes, don't have the room for it. That's why I buy the 6 gallon pails of juice.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> This is the one that I use:
> https://morewinemaking.com/products/chromatography-test-kit-wine-making.html
> 
> Comes with 25 sheets of chromo paper, so you can run 25 tests, with as many as 8 wines on each sheet.


Thanks. I've seen this one, a bit pricey though.


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## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Looks like the Piwine one is the better one as far as price goes. I can't make wine from fresh grapes, don't have the room for it. That's why I buy the 6 gallon pails of juice.



Not sure I understand the can't make from fresh grapes, not enough room. It doesn't really take much more room than anything else. I don't own a crusher/destemmer, most places you buy grapes from have one. I do have a very small fruit press (100 lbs takes 2-3 loadings). My buckets are Brute trash cans. Just some things to think about for the future.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> Not sure I understand the can't make from fresh grapes, not enough room. It doesn't really take much more room than anything else. I don't own a crusher/destemmer, most places you buy grapes from have one. I do have a very small fruit press (100 lbs takes 2-3 loadings). My buckets are Brute trash cans. Just some things to think about for the future.


Well, what I meant was that I don't have room in my basement for that process.


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## jgmillr1

Here you go.$60 for the kit

https://www.piwine.com/chromatography-test-kit-vertical-paper.html


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## Mario Dinis

jgmillr1 said:


> Here you go.$60 for the kit
> 
> https://www.piwine.com/chromatography-test-kit-vertical-paper.html


Thank you. I did buy that kit yesterday.


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## AdegaAguiar

Mario, are you going to add MLB, to all each of the three wines? or just one and then blend?


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## Mario Dinis

AdegaAguiar said:


> Mario, are you going to add MLB, to all each of the three wines? or just one and then blend?


I'm going to attempt a MLF on all three and hope for the best. Actually my CH16 and nutrient just arrived.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I wouldn't top it up, when you first move it to secondary and hopefully your mlf finishes before to long, then the sulphites in the top up wine won't matter. They probably won't anyway, since they will get dispersed throughout the receiving wine.


Hello there. Coming back to your advice here. I'm a little concerned about the topping up. I just started first fermentation. Before ot finishes, I'm going to remove the equivalent of two 750 ml bottles to make port. When the first fermentation is over and I rack the wine to a carboy to initiate MLF, there will be a substantial amount of head space. I believe I should top off, my concern is if store bought wine will screw up the MLF, you know, the sulfite issue. What do you advise based on this picture?


----------



## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Hello there. Coming back to your advice here. I'm a little concerned about the topping up. I just started first fermentation. Before ot finishes, I'm going to remove the equivalent of two 750 ml bottles to make port. When the first fermentation is over and I rack the wine to a carboy to initiate MLF, there will be a substantial amount of head space. I believe I should top off, my concern is if store bought wine will screw up the MLF, you know, the sulfite issue. What do you advise based on this picture?


I think a generally good plan is to always have all topped up carboys. Particularly while doing mlf, which may be a rather long time period. In your case, I would recommend removing 5-750 ml bottles (1 gallon) and then racking down to the next smaller carboy.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I think a generally good plan is to always have all topped up carboys. Particularly while doing mlf, which may be a rather long time period. In your case, I would recommend removing 5-750 ml bottles (1 gallon) and then racking down to the next smaller carboy.


Thank you


----------



## Mario Dinis

Hello everybody, has anyone ever used water to top off a 6 gallon carboy before MLF? If yes, spring or distilled? TIA


----------



## VictorV

I would not recommend topping off with water. I did that for my first batch of wine from a kit and it came out
tasting watered down. Truly awful. Use some cheap wine instead.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Hello everyone. So I have a 6 gallon carboy of petite sirah showing signs of MLF, a very tiny bubble coming up every so often. Also have a 6 gallon carboy of cab sav that shows some bubbles still coming up. I think the nutrient is probably fighting with the lees. And finally I have a 6 gallon carboy of merlot that shows no activity whatsoever. All three have Option Malo Plus nutrient, 6 grams each. Petite Sirah and Cabernet Sauvignon have CH16 mlb. The merlot has Wyeast 4007. I have the feeling that I may not get lucky with a mlf in the merlot. If a mlf doesn't occur, will it leave an off flavor in the wine since I added a 6g packet of nutrient to it even though I left the soft lees in the carboys? I haven't racked them yet.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Also, I did a little stirring only once so far on all 3 carboys.


----------



## cmason1957

I will be very surprised if your Merlot MLB works, two reasons 1) Wyeast 4007 (seldom hear folks having good luck with this) 2) Merlot can often be a Pita for Malolactic.


----------



## Johnd

Sometimes MLF shows outward signs, sometimes none at all. Merlot is noted for difficulty with MLF, some go fine, sometimes it just refuses. The only real way to be sure is to run Malic Acid tests, which can be accomplished with paper chromotography or with Malic Test Strips, they both work well, the strips are fast and easy, but a little on the pricey side compare to PC. MLF can take weeks to months to complete, so don't be too anxious, keep your carboys topped up properly and stay off the sulfite until it is complete.

If you do end up with unsuccessful MLF and end up having to sulfite and bottle, the little bit of nutrients you have in there shouldn't adversely affect your wines taste. Also, you might consider adding lysozyme to the wine before bottling to prevent MLF from kicking off in the bottle later.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I will be very surprised if your Merlot MLB works, two reasons 1) Wyeast 4007 (seldom hear folks having good luck with this) 2) Merlot can often be a Pita for Malolactic.


That's my fear. I'm going to blend with the others anyway.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Sometimes MLF shows outward signs, sometimes none at all. Merlot is noted for difficulty with MLF, some go fine, sometimes it just refuses. The only real way to be sure is to run Malic Acid tests, which can be accomplished with paper chromotography or with Malic Test Strips, they both work well, the strips are fast and easy, but a little on the pricey side compare to PC. MLF can take weeks to months to complete, so don't be too anxious, keep your carboys topped up properly and stay off the sulfite until it is complete.
> 
> If you do end up with unsuccessful MLF and end up having to sulfite and bottle, the little bit of nutrients you have in there shouldn't adversely affect your wines taste. Also, you might consider adding lysozyme to the wine before bottling to prevent MLF from kicking off in the bottle later.


Thank you for your advice JohnD. I haven't added sulfites. This is my first time at mlf so I'm a bit nervous because it's also the first time that I haven't added sulfites.


----------



## Diane Rudnick

cmason1957 said:


> I will be very surprised if your Merlot MLB works, two reasons 1) Wyeast 4007 (seldom hear folks having good luck with this) 2) Merlot can often be a Pita for Malolactic.



Our Pinot Noir from frozen must is going through MLF now with Wyeast 4007 MLB. We did not record our starting number of Malic Acid but we tested using Vinmetrica SC-55 and we’re at 5.8 Malic acid concentration rated in kilo pascals per liter )(*&*(&^%^&%&^%$^%$ I hate chemistry! Anyway we believe it’s working .. slowly. News at 11:00 !


----------



## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Thank you for your advice JohnD. I haven't added sulfites. This is my first time at mlf so I'm a bit nervous because it's also the first time that I haven't added sulfites.



Just make sure your wine is topped up properly, it's OK to worry about it, I was a nervous wreck for my first MLF. I did sequential innoculation on Chilean grapes and left them sulfite free for 4 months, never did get MLF to complete. That's when I switched to coinoculation, much shorter time period, have never had one fail since then.

What Craig said about the Wyeast MLB seems to be a consistent result, a lot of difficulty getting that product to complete MLF, plus it's in Merlot, which is notoriously stubborn........


----------



## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Just make sure your wine is topped up properly, it's OK to worry about it, I was a nervous wreck for my first MLF. I did sequential innoculation on Chilean grapes and left them sulfite free for 4 months, never did get MLF to complete. That's when I switched to coinoculation, much shorter time period, have never had one fail since then.
> 
> What Craig said about the Wyeast MLB seems to be a consistent result, a lot of difficulty getting that product to complete MLF, plus it's in Merlot, which is notoriously stubborn........


I see. Coinoculation, am I correct to say that that it's done at the same time as the primary fermentation? and if yes, does one pitch the bacteria, nutrient and yeast at the same time?


----------



## CDrew

Mario Dinis said:


> I see. Coinoculation, am I correct to say that that it's done at the same time as the primary fermentation? and if yes, does one pitch the bacteria, nutrient and yeast at the same time?



The Lallemand paper suggests that all ways are acceptable. With the yeast, 24-48 hours after the yeast and basically any time you want. Based on advice here, I pitch the MLF after the first cap forms. So that's usually 12-24 hours after the yeast is pitched. That gives the yeast a solid chance to get established, and the must tends to warm a bit which aids the bacteria. I picked my Syrah on September 15 and MLF is already complete. I'm going to let it go 1 more week and then sulfite.


----------



## Mario Dinis

CDrew said:


> The Lallemand paper suggests that all ways are acceptable. With the yeast, 24-48 hours after the yeast and basically any time you want. Based on advice here, I pitch the MLF after the first cap forms. So that's usually 12-24 hours after the yeast is pitched. That gives the yeast a solid chance to get established, and the must tends to warm a bit which aids the bacteria. I picked my Syrah on September 15 and MLF is already complete. I'm going to let it go 1 more week and then sulfite.


That's great, thanks for the info. Next year I will try MLF that way.


----------



## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> I see. Coinoculation, am I correct to say that that it's done at the same time as the primary fermentation? and if yes, does one pitch the bacteria, nutrient and yeast at the same time?



Yes, the MLB and nutrients are added to the must within 24 hours of adding the yeast. We understand that the environmental factors that affect the performance of the MLB are:
1. Available nutrients
2. Temperature
3. Sulfite levels
4. pH levels
5. Alcohol

With coinoculation, assuming that you've got your pH in range and add nutrients, you start the MLB off in an environment that is virtually free of sulfite and alcohol. As the alcohol levels increase, the MLB adapts slowly. Even with a sulfite producing yeast like BM 4x4, the MLB acclimates to that as well, plus, the increasing temperatures from fermentation are favorable to MLB. All of these factors allow the MLB to become well established and acclimated to the wine environment in which it can complete its work. MLF is normally finished very soon after AF and you can sulfite / protect your wine much sooner. Problems can occur if you don't properly feed both your MLB and yeast, as they can compete for food and produce some unwanted compounds. Feeding is important!!

Not a dig at sequential inoculation at all, but it can be more difficult for MLB to get established and functioning in an environment where the alcohol is 14%+, small amounts of sulfite have been produced or added, and temps are cooling down to the ambient room temps. Both methods are fine.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Yes, the MLB and nutrients are added to the must within 24 hours of adding the yeast. We understand that the environmental factors that affect the performance of the MLB are:
> 1. Available nutrients
> 2. Temperature
> 3. Sulfite levels
> 4. pH levels
> 5. Alcohol
> 
> With coinoculation, assuming that you've got your pH in range and add nutrients, you start the MLB off in an environment that is virtually free of sulfite and alcohol. As the alcohol levels increase, the MLB adapts slowly. Even with a sulfite producing yeast like BM 4x4, the MLB acclimates to that as well, plus, the increasing temperatures from fermentation are favorable to MLB. All of these factors allow the MLB to become well established and acclimated to the wine environment in which it can complete its work. MLF is normally finished very soon after AF and you can sulfite / protect your wine much sooner. Problems can occur if you don't properly feed both your MLB and yeast, as they can compete for food and produce some unwanted compounds. Feeding is important!!
> 
> Not a dig at sequential inoculation at all, but it can be more difficult for MLB to get established and functioning in an environment where the alcohol is 14%+, small amounts of sulfite have been produced or added, and temps are cooling down to the ambient room temps. Both methods are fine.


I use juice buckets, the sulfites already should be at the right range.


----------



## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> I use juice buckets, the sulfites already should be at the right range.



I've never done a juice bucket, so I don't know what sulfite levels are added to them, if any.....you should ask the supplier what their practices are.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I will be very surprised if your Merlot MLB works, two reasons 1) Wyeast 4007 (seldom hear folks having good luck with this) 2) Merlot can often be a Pita for Malolactic.


Hi, after almost three weeks since having added the Wyeast 4007 and Opti Malo nutrient to my merlot and showing no signs whatsoever of any activity (someone here said that one might be able to spot tiny bubbles during MLF), I have spotted today a few tiny bubbles coming up. I hope that's a good sign that my merlot is undergoing MLF. My cab sav is still showing tiny bubbles, but a lot slower. My petite sirah shows no activity now after a lot of activity in the beginning. Cab Sav and petite sirah were inoculated with CH 16. I gave the carboys a stir after three days now once in awhile a gentle shake because I don't want any air contact. Based on this I have two questions, one, should I continue to shake the carboys once in awhile and two, are the tiny bubbles any indication of possible MLF going on? I do have a chromotography kit to test after a month whish will be in the end ofthe month.


----------



## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Hi, after almost three weeks since having added the Wyeast 4007 and Opti Malo nutrient to my merlot and showing no signs whatsoever of any activity (someone here said that one might be able to spot tiny bubbles during MLF), I have spotted today a few tiny bubbles coming up. I hope that's a good sign that my merlot is undergoing MLF. My cab sav is still showing tiny bubbles, but a lot slower. My petite sirah shows no activity now after a lot of activity in the beginning. Cab Sav and petite sirah were inoculated with CH 16. I gave the carboys a stir after three days now once in awhile a gentle shake because I don't want any air contact. Based on this I have two questions, one, should I continue to shake the carboys once in awhile and two, are the tiny bubbles any indication of possible MLF going on? I do have a chromotography kit to test after a month whish will be in the end ofthe month.



Nothing to do but stay the course, maintain low headspace, do a little stirring if you can, and wait. MLF frequently shows no signs, so don't count it out yet. Your chromotography will tell the tale when it's time....


----------



## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Nothing to do but stay the course, maintain low headspace, do a little stirring if you can, and wait. MLF frequently shows no signs, so don't count it out yet. Your chromotography will tell the tale when it's time....


I have minimum air space. I can try another stir. Surprised at the merlot. Thought it was dormant or "done" for MLF and now all of a sudden there's these tiny bubbles.


----------



## jsbeckton

For what it’s worth I have 2 wines going that were co-inoculated with VP41 about 4 weeks ago. One carboy has been showing the often cited “tiny bubbles” and the other pretty much nothing...

Ran test yesterday and sure enough the one with no signs of life this whole time is further along!


----------



## Mario Dinis

T


jsbeckton said:


> For what it’s worth I have 2 wines going that were co-inoculated with VP41 about 4 weeks ago. One carboy has been showing the often cited “tiny bubbles” and the other pretty much nothing...
> 
> Ran test yesterday and sure enough the one with no signs of life this whole time is further along!


wo more weeks and I'll be checking mine to make sure.


----------



## Bill McNab

For 25 years I have sequentialy inoculated with mixed results using CH16
This year with my P.S. and Barbera I used VP41 and coinoculated for the first time.
With proper nutrients and PH adjusted to 3.3 I am pleased with my results.
P.S. is complete and my Barbera is very close to complete, using chromotography.
From yeast and VP41 1 day later ,to final MLF 23 days.
I could not be happier.
Coinoculation every year from now on.
Bill.


----------



## montanarick

Co-Inoculated all my reds with VP41 - yeast Lallemand 71B. In two weeks MLF essentially done but letting it sit for another week just to make sure. Next step will be cold stabilization to get rid of the Ice Diamonds and knock TA down even further


----------



## Mario Dinis

montanarick said:


> Co-Inoculated all my reds with VP41 - yeast Lallemand 71B. In two weeks MLF essentially done but letting it sit for another week just to make sure. Next step will be cold stabilization to get rid of the Ice Diamonds and knock TA down even further


Ice Diamonds? do you mind to explain what are those.


----------



## Ajmassa

Mario Dinis said:


> Ice Diamonds? do you mind to explain what are those.



At colder temps for an extended time period acid will drop out of the wine. Cold stabilization. TA can drop a couple ticks. And it drops out in the form tartrates. “Crystals”. They shimmer all pretty in the light. 
Done in the carboy they don’t end up in the bottle. But only end up in the bottle if temps drop. Not that they are necessarily bad to have tho.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Ajmassa said:


> At colder temps for an extended time period acid will drop out of the wine. Cold stabilization. TA can drop a couple ticks. And it drops out in the form tartrates. “Crystals”. They shimmer all pretty in the light.
> Done in the carboy they don’t end up in the bottle. But only end up in the bottle if temps drop. Not that they are necessarily bad to have tho.


Thank you for the explanation. I do have a few bottles of my 2016 Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot blend with in fact those crystals. I just opened one last night and it was good.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Hello everyone, let me ask for a sugestion here. Assuming that MLF is successful, what would be the best next step after adding some Kmeta to the wine, degassing and fining/clearing and later on adding oak or adding the oak now and then later on degassing and clearing? the reasoning behind my question is the amount of rackings and air exposure. I'm more inclined to add the oak now since later on I'll have to remove the chips from the carboys when racking.


----------



## cmason1957

I always add my oak during MLF. It gives the bacteria a place to rest while working (or something like that). Degassing isn't a step I do, except for during vacuum racking, I pretty much let time take care of fining/clearing.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I always add my oak during MLF. It gives the bacteria a place to rest while working (or something like that). Degassing isn't a step I do, except for during vacuum racking, I pretty much let time take care of fining/clearing.


Thanks, I'll definitely will keep that in mind next time.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Good morning everyone, this is the result of my first attempt at MLF started on September 29th. I used Wyeast 4007 in the Merlot and CH 16 in the Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah. I thought the Merlot was not going anywhere because I was noticing some tiny little bubbles in the others and none in the Merlot. Then all of a sudden I started to notice some tiny bubbles in the Merlot last week. I've heard that it's hard to get a MLF with Merlot and Wyeast 4007, but now I see this result on the paper. What do you suggest I do next, wait another week for the Merlot and then add sulfites to it? and how long a wait until I retest the other two wines which obviously are still going. Thanks in advance.


----------



## cmason1957

I would wait at least two more weeks on the Merlot and another month before retesting the others. The Merlot still has a little bit of a malic acid showing. Are you stirring the wines gently, once or twice a week.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I would wait at least two more weeks on the Merlot and another month before retesting the others. The Merlot still has a little bit of a malic acid showing. Are you stirring the wines gently, once or twice a week.


Thank you, that's what I was thinking of doing. I've only stirred twice in a month period. I'm afraid of air exposure, but I'll give them another stir today.


----------



## stickman

@Mario Dinis well after all of the negative publicity for Wyeast 4007 at least you've got a positive result, on Merlot no less. Do you know the pH of your wines? CH16 has been extremely reliable here, even with sequential inoculation it has finished in less than 30 days, the only time it took longer was with wine at 3.3 pH.


----------



## Mario Dinis

stickman said:


> @Mario Dinis well after all of the negative publicity for Wyeast 4007 at least you've got a positive result, on Merlot no less. Do you know the pH of your wines? CH16 has been extremely reliable here, even with sequential inoculation it has finished in less than 30 days, the only time it took longer was with wine at 3.3 pH.


I'll be honest, I don't know the Ph at this point. I bought the buckets of juice and I didn't have a Ph meter at the time.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Good morning. These two tests are two weeks apart. It seems that my merlot is done, but I don't notice any development in the cab sav and petite sirah. Can anyone give me an opinion here?
Thanks


----------



## Mario Dinis

Happy Thanksgiving every one. Those of you that use or have used CH 16 for MLF, what is the average time it takes to complete MLF? I have a Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah inoculated with it since September 29th and it's still going like half and half.


----------



## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Happy Thanksgiving every one. Those of you that use or have used CH 16 for MLF, what is the average time it takes to complete MLF? I have a Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah inoculated with it since September 29th and it's still going like half and half.


No matter what bacteria you add, mlf takes as long as it takes. 3-4 months maybe longer. Don't worry, keep that wine topped up, don't open it often.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> No matter what bacteria you add, mlf takes as long as it takes. 3-4 months maybe longer. Don't worry, keep that wine topped up, don't open it often.


I do notice a little improvement, but it's going slower than the Wyeast 4007. It's been two months already and still looks like halfway through. I did post pictures of the chromatograpy tests. Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> No matter what bacteria you add, mlf takes as long as it takes. 3-4 months maybe longer. Don't worry, keep that wine topped up, don't open it often.


This might sound as an unnecessary question, but at this time of the year, how much influence has temperature in the progress of MLF? My basement is about 60 degrees F.


----------



## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> This might sound as an unnecessary question, but at this time of the year, how much influence has temperature in the progress of MLF? My basement is about 60 degrees F.



That could be the issue, most MLBs would prefer it to be around 70 degrees.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> That could be the issue, most MLBs would prefer it to be around 70 degrees.


But, will this temperature stop the MLF or just slow it down?


----------



## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> But, will this temperature stop the MLF or just slow it down?



I believe it will just slows it down.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> I believe it will just slows it down.


Oh, ok. Thanks.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> I believe it will just slows it down.


Well, moved the two carboys to a warmer area of my basement. The moving caused a little stirring which along with the increase in the temperature will help the speed of the MLF.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Indeed the moving of the carboys to a warmer spot in the basement and off the floor (on top of 3/4" foam board) helped. Tiny bubbles all over. Temperature around 71. Is stirring still required twice a week?


----------



## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> Indeed the moving of the carboys to a warmer spot in the basement and off the floor (on top of 3/4" foam board) helped. Tiny bubbles all over. Temperature around 71. Is stirring still required twice a week?



I often get lazy and only stir once every 2 weeks. I'm not sure what the recommended time frame is.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> I often get lazy and only stir once every 2 weeks. I'm not sure what the recommended time frame is.


Thank you. I keep reading twice a week. If by any chance after the MLF is completed and the wine is on the flat side, how can I revive it a little with acid and which kind? I assume it would be Tartaric, am I correct?


----------



## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> Thank you. I keep reading twice a week. If by any chance after the MLF is completed and the wine is on the flat side, how can I revive it a little with acid and which kind? I assume it would be Tartaric, am I correct?



Yes, it is tartaric. Please remember there are no magic numbers with regard to the final pH. You may want to shoot for 3.55-3.65 but the final pH is strictly dependent on what you find the most enjoyable. The way I do it is pour 3 glasses of somewhat equal amounts and add different amounts of acid to each. Then taste and see which one you think you like and measure the pH. Then only add half that amount. Let it set for a few days to a week and try it again or do the previous procedure over. This is just how I do it and I'm sure others do it differently.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> Yes, it is tartaric. Please remember there are no magic numbers with regard to the final pH. You may want to shoot for 3.55-3.65 but the final pH is strictly dependent on what you find the most enjoyable. The way I do it is pour 3 glasses of somewhat equal amounts and add different amounts of acid to each. Then taste and see which one you think you like and measure the pH. Then only add half that amount. Let it set for a few days to a week and try it again or do the previous procedure over. This is just how I do it and I'm sure others do it differently.


Thank you for the advice. I will try that method if need be. I hope I won't have to add anything when the MLF is complete.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> Yes, it is tartaric. Please remember there are no magic numbers with regard to the final pH. You may want to shoot for 3.55-3.65 but the final pH is strictly dependent on what you find the most enjoyable. The way I do it is pour 3 glasses of somewhat equal amounts and add different amounts of acid to each. Then taste and see which one you think you like and measure the pH. Then only add half that amount. Let it set for a few days to a week and try it again or do the previous procedure over. This is just how I do it and I'm sure others do it differently.


I also have another question. Co-inoculation. I usually do open fermentation of juice in the bucket and when it's done I rack it to carboys. If I want to do a co-inoculation 24 hours after pitching the yeast into the open buckts, how will the next step, racking into carboys, affect the MLF? basically what I'm asking is when the AF is done, by racking the wine to carboys while in MLF will have any bad effect on the MLF. Or co-inoculation should be done under airlock from the very beginning?


----------



## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> I also have another question. Co-inoculation. I usually do open fermentation of juice in the bucket and when it's done I rack it to carboys. If I want to do a co-inoculation 24 hours after pitching the yeast into the open buckts, how will the next step, racking into carboys, affect the MLF? basically what I'm asking is when the AF is done, by racking the wine to carboys while in MLF will have any bad effect on the MLF. Or co-inoculation should be done under airlock from the very beginning?



Mario, hopefully someone else will jump on this one since I don't co-inoculate. I know it's widely accepted but I'm just not yet willing to try.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> Mario, hopefully someone else will jump on this one since I don't co-inoculate. I know it's widely accepted but I'm just not yet willing to try.


Thanks. I hope someone will help me out here.


----------



## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> I also have another question. Co-inoculation. I usually do open fermentation of juice in the bucket and when it's done I rack it to carboys. If I want to do a co-inoculation 24 hours after pitching the yeast into the open buckts, how will the next step, racking into carboys, affect the MLF? basically what I'm asking is when the AF is done, by racking the wine to carboys while in MLF will have any bad effect on the MLF. Or co-inoculation should be done under airlock from the very beginning?



Don't change a thing in your process other than when you inoculate your MLB. Continue fermentation as normal, keep your yeast and MLB fed, press on schedule, rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days later, top up and put your airlock / vented bungs in place and wait. MLF should be complete a few short weeks later..............


----------



## Ajmassa

Other people may have different views but think your process is perfect and is exactly what I’m doing now: Ferment as is with a co-inoculation then adjust later to taste—-with no regard for ph & TA anymore. 
They are pre-balanced but never forthcoming on specifics. My fall juice is even adjusted with different acids(citric) throwing off the numbers and drove me nuts trying to adjust pre AF. 

It’s funny, I’ve never gotten Cali grapes that didn’t have a high ph. Yet my juice buckets are always lower ph and TA. But whatever they’re doing my levels seem to end up right on the money after AF & MLF.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Other people may have different views but think your process is perfect and is exactly what I’m doing now: Ferment as is with a co-inoculation then adjust later to taste—-with no regard for ph & TA anymore.
> They are pre-balanced but never forthcoming on specifics. My fall juice is even adjusted with different acids(citric) throwing off the numbers and drove me nuts trying to adjust pre AF.
> 
> It’s funny, I’ve never gotten Cali grapes that didn’t have a high ph. Yet my juice buckets are always lower ph and TA. But whatever they’re doing my levels seem to end up right on the money after AF & MLF.



I'm with you on the pH and TA as far as taste goes but it is important once you get your final balance to take a pH reading for the sake of sulfites.

Oh and the juice bucket dilemma, what do they put in juice buckets we'll never know.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Don't change a thing in your process other than when you inoculate your MLB. Continue fermentation as normal, keep your yeast and MLB fed, press on schedule, rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days later, top up and put your airlock / vented bungs in place and wait. MLF should be complete a few short weeks later..............


Thank you for your advice.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Ajmassa said:


> Other people may have different views but think your process is perfect and is exactly what I’m doing now: Ferment as is with a co-inoculation then adjust later to taste—-with no regard for ph & TA anymore.
> They are pre-balanced but never forthcoming on specifics. My fall juice is even adjusted with different acids(citric) throwing off the numbers and drove me nuts trying to adjust pre AF.
> 
> It’s funny, I’ve never gotten Cali grapes that didn’t have a high ph. Yet my juice buckets are always lower ph and TA. But whatever they’re doing my levels seem to end up right on the money after AF & MLF.


Thank you for your advice. I want to try co-inoculation next fall, but was confused about when to rack to carboys because of the MLF. I didn't know if that would have an impact on it. I guess it doesn't.


----------



## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Don't change a thing in your process other than when you inoculate your MLB. Continue fermentation as normal, keep your yeast and MLB fed, press on schedule, rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days later, top up and put your airlock / vented bungs in place and wait. MLF should be complete a few short weeks later..............


I only do buckets of juice. No grapes. So no pressing and no gross lees here.


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## Mario Dinis

Hey guys, thank you so much for your inputs. I really appreciate all your advices. I've learned a lot in these threads.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I'm with you on the pH and TA as far as taste goes but it is important once you get your final balance to take a pH reading for the sake of sulfites.
> 
> Oh and the juice bucket dilemma, what do they put in juice buckets we'll never know.



Well, not exactly ‘total’ disregard for ph and TA. But you know what I mean. Trying to tweak a bucket to perfection just ended creating more aggravation for me. When leaving alone they always dial in nicely. 
And yeah man. Such a secretive process. I found conflicting info, confusing terminology, blended with acid/other juice?, yeast/no yeast?. And often the people supplying answers shouldn’t have been.


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## Mario Dinis

Good morning, I just tested my Merlot's ph and it's at 3.44 . I don't have an acid test kit yet. I assume this range is good for acidity. It tastes fine. What do you think? And if it's in good range, does that also apply for Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah?


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## Mario Dinis

Well, just stopped by to say that my first attempt at MLF was successful with my Merlot, Cab Sauv and Petite Sirah. Used Wyeast 4007 on the Merlot and CH16 on the others with Opti-Malo. Merlot now under fining the other two under oak. Three 6 gallons carboys. Thank you all for your advices. Learned a lot.


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## Ajmassa

Mario Dinis said:


> Good morning, I just tested my Merlot's ph and it's at 3.44 . I don't have an acid test kit yet. I assume this range is good for acidity. It tastes fine. What do you think? And if it's in good range, does that also apply for Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah?



I’d say yes very much so. That’s the beauty of these juice buckets- they seem to fall right into place. 
For red wine 3.6 is sorta/kinda the ideal ph level for many. If it tastes good and it’s slightly less at 3.4 I just view that as extra acid protection in the wine for quality aging potential. But creeping near 4.0 is another story- requiring more so2 and attention.


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## Mario Dinis

Ajmassa said:


> I’d say yes very much so. That’s the beauty of these juice buckets- they seem to fall right into place.
> For red wine 3.6 is sorta/kinda the ideal ph level for many. If it tastes good and it’s slightly less at 3.4 I just view that as extra acid protection in the wine for quality aging potential. But creeping near 4.0 is another story- requiring more so2 and attention.


Thanks AJ


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## Mario Dinis

Ajmassa said:


> I’d say yes very much so. That’s the beauty of these juice buckets- they seem to fall right into place.
> For red wine 3.6 is sorta/kinda the ideal ph level for many. If it tastes good and it’s slightly less at 3.4 I just view that as extra acid protection in the wine for quality aging potential. But creeping near 4.0 is another story- requiring more so2 and attention.


I didn't check the Ph on my cab sauv and Petite Sirah because I read here somewhere that the CO2 throws off the readings and it should be done after degassing. Am I correct?


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## Ajmassa

Mario Dinis said:


> I didn't check the Ph on my cab sauv and Petite Sirah because I read here somewhere that the CO2 throws off the readings and it should be done after degassing. Am I correct?



Yep. That’s what they say at least. To avoid that you can pull a sample and shake the hell out of it a bunch of times to degas first. I just racked and sulfited my wines after successful MLFs as well. Ph clocked in at 3.84 and 3.81.
But they were loaded with co2 still and I just probed right into the carboy. 
Either way not concerned. Just like yours they are sulphited and topped up. In 3 or 4 months will check levels, taste, rack, dose so2 and probably add some oak.


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## Mario Dinis

Ajmassa said:


> Yep. That’s what they say at least. To avoid that you can pull a sample and shake the hell out of it a bunch of times to degas first. I just racked and sulfited my wines after successful MLFs as well. Ph clocked in at 3.84 and 3.81.
> But they were loaded with co2 still and I just probed right into the carboy.
> Either way not concerned. Just like yours they are sulphited and topped up. In 3 or 4 months will check levels, taste, rack, dose so2 and probably add some oak.


That's my plan as well.


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## Mario Dinis

Ok, I understand this may not be the right thread to ask this question, but has anyone of you ever used this brand? I'm not too happy with it. After a month there's still a very slight haze. I've used Super-Kleer KC before and it's great.


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## mainshipfred

Never used it but I think it's Kieselol and Chitosan which comes in a lot of kits. Should work just fine. From what I remember you add one then the other later but I don't know the particulars.


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## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> Ok, I understand this may not be the right thread to ask this question, but has anyone of you ever used this brand? I'm not too happy with it. After a month there's still a very slight haze. I've used Super-Kleer KC before and it's great.


Hate to break this to you, but this is Super Kleer. A few years ago, they changed the name to Dual Fine. Same formulation.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> Hate to break this to you, but this is Super Kleer. A few years ago, they changed the name to Dual Fine. Same formulation.


I didn't know that, thanks. But when I used the brand super kleer, I found that under the same conditions, my wine cleared faster than with this dual fine. There's definitely a difference.


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## Mario Dinis

Hi, can anyone tell me more or less how much of this VP41 should be added to two six gallon buckets of juice?
Can the left over be used next year? Also, does it need Opti-malo Plus?


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## mainshipfred

I think most would tell you no you cannot use it next year although I'm not totally convinced it couldn't be used in the fall if you froze it immediately after opening it. The amount is .25 grams per 6 gallons.


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## Boatboy24

Mario Dinis said:


> Hi, can anyone tell me more or less how much of this VP41 should be added to two six gallon buckets of juice?
> Can the left over be used next year? Also, does it need Opti-malo Plus?



2.5 grams will do over 60 gallons. There are those that save it, by freezing and reusing. I think most here just buy a new packet each year. I would recommend Opti-Malo and also using Acting's-ML during hydration.


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## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> I think most would tell you no you cannot use it next year although I'm not totally convinced it couldn't be used in the fall if you froze it immediately after opening it. The amount is .25 grams per 6 gallons.


Thank you so much


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## Mario Dinis

Boatboy24 said:


> 2.5 grams will do over 60 gallons. There are those that save it, by freezing and reusing. I think most here just buy a new packet each year. I would recommend Opti-Malo and also using Acting's-ML during hydration.


Thank you so much


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## Mario Dinis

I also have a packet of D 254 yeast unopened in a zip lock bag in my fridge since last end of Summer. Do you think it is still good to use this Spring in my Malbec?
I'd appreciate an advice.


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## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> I also have a packet of D 254 yeast unopened in a zip lock bag in my fridge since last end of Summer. Do you think it is still good to use this Spring in my Malbec?
> I'd appreciate an advice.



I would guess it is probably fine. What I do if in question is rehydrate the yeast. If it grows it's good.


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## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> I would guess it is probably fine. What I do if in question is rehydrate the yeast. If it grows it's good.


Thanks


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## JackH

Very interesting read as I am about to get Chilean juice buckets of Cab Sauv, Merlot, and PS. Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but for those who co-inoculate juice buckets, did you measure total and free SO2 prior to pitching MLB? That's the only part that makes me nervous about co-inoculating. I plan to test (Vinmetric set up) both free and total SO2 prior to pitching yeast for AF. If the SO2 is within the stated tolerance of the MLB strain (using CH16), is it safe to pitch 24 hours after yeast pitch? Thanks!


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## cmason1957

JackH said:


> Very interesting read as I am about to get Chilean juice buckets of Cab Sauv, Merlot, and PS. Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but for those who co-inoculate juice buckets, did you measure total and free SO2 prior to pitching MLB? That's the only part that makes me nervous about co-inoculating. I plan to test (Vinmetric set up) both free and total SO2 prior to pitching yeast for AF. If the SO2 is within the stated tolerance of the MLB strain (using CH16), is it safe to pitch 24 hours after yeast pitch? Thanks!



I don't coinoculate, but I bleieve I have read most folks wait a bit longer than just 24 hours after yeast pitch. If it were me, I would wait until at least 1/2 sugar drop.


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## JackH

cmason1957 said:


> I don't coinoculate, but I bleieve I have read most folks wait a bit longer than just 24 hours after yeast pitch. If it were me, I would wait until at least 1/2 sugar drop.



Thanks for the reply. In your experience, would it be worth re-checking total and free sulfites at the half-sugar point, prior to pitching MLB? and are the stated sulfite tolerances on the MLB packaging realistic?


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## mainshipfred

If I'm understanding your question correctly the SO2 in the bucket will more than likely be low enough especially if you wait a couple days before pitching the MLB. The AF will bind some of the SO2. The CO2 will protect the wine through AF. After that just make sure the carboy is topped up while MLF completes.


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## 1d10t

The free sulfite should be used up rather quickly in an environment where you encourage oxygen ingress for the yeast.


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## Johnd

JackH said:


> Very interesting read as I am about to get Chilean juice buckets of Cab Sauv, Merlot, and PS. Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but for those who co-inoculate juice buckets, did you measure total and free SO2 prior to pitching MLB? That's the only part that makes me nervous about co-inoculating. I plan to test (Vinmetric set up) both free and total SO2 prior to pitching yeast for AF. If the SO2 is within the stated tolerance of the MLB strain (using CH16), is it safe to pitch 24 hours after yeast pitch? Thanks!



I coinoculate exclusively, typically as soon as AF takes off, when the first cap rises. Since you’re doing buckets, you’ll have no cap, in which case, inoculate when you see signs of fermentation (bubbling or first SG drop noted). If it were me, I wouldn’t add any SO2 to the bucket, and if they come with SO2 on board, you should make sure it’s below the tolerance of your MLB.


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## JackH

mainshipfred said:


> If I'm understanding your question correctly the SO2 in the bucket will more than likely be low enough especially if you wait a couple days before pitching the MLB. The AF will bind some of the SO2. The CO2 will protect the wine through AF. After that just make sure the carboy is topped up while MLF completes.



Yes, that's basically what I'm asking about (sorry not expressed too clearly). I am expecting the possibility that the juice buckets may be sulfited for transit, and waiting a few days into AF makes sense since the SO2 will attenuate during AF.


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## JackH

Johnd said:


> I coinoculate exclusively, typically as soon as AF takes off, when the first cap rises. Since you’re doing buckets, you’ll have no cap, in which case, inoculate when you see signs of fermentation (bubbling or first SG drop noted). If it were me, I wouldn’t add any SO2 to the bucket, and if they come with SO2 on board, you should make sure it’s below the tolerance of your MLB.



This is what I am after If the SO2 is above MLB tolerance prior to yeast pitch, I assume the SO2 will attenuate once AF starts in earnest. I can test SO2 again and make sure it's in the tolerance range of the MLB before pitching it. Many thanks for the input.


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## cmason1957

I don't check SO2 levels. I'm not sure it would add anything to my wine making to check them. I agree with what John suggests, don't add any SO2 to the juice bucket and add your MLB at the first signs of fermentation. That's if you are going to co-inoculate, which many folks do. I do not. I wait for AF to finish, let the first racking pass and add my MLB after that.


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## Ajmassa

With those buckets you’ll be good dropping in your ML probabaly at any point. Never enough so2 in them to inhibit MLf Never enough so2 to inhibit AF either. Those things always take off like gangbusters with or without adding yeast once the juice getA near room temp 
You can safely drop in your Malo once AF starts chugging away. I do it just as @Johnd said— adding once I see fermentation fully active. Usually a day or so after adding yeast. I took his advice the first time I did mlf and have been doing the same ever since with 100% success rate too (knock on wood)


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## JackH

Ajmassa said:


> With those buckets you’ll be good dropping in your ML probabaly at any point. Never enough so2 in them to inhibit MLf Never enough so2 to inhibit AF either. Those things always take off like gangbusters with or without adding yeast once the juice getA near room temp
> You can safely drop in your Malo once AF starts chugging away. I do it just as @Johnd said— adding once I see fermentation fully active. Usually a day or so after adding yeast. I took his advice the first time I did mlf and have been doing the same ever since with 100% success rate too (knock on wood)



Good to hear. That is the approach I will take. Thanks for the input!


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## Ajmassa

When/if you test your juice be sure to share your findings here on the forum. Despite successful mlfs I’ve never actually tested the so2 levels in juice buckets (Only tested grapes) or have read results of anyone else’s tests. Curious what they’re clockin in at


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## JackH

Ajmassa said:


> When/if you test your juice be sure to share your findings here on the forum. Despite successful mlfs I’ve never actually tested the so2 levels in juice buckets (Only tested grapes) or have read results of anyone else’s tests. Curious what they’re clockin in at



Absolutely!


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## Mario Dinis

Can store bought wine that contains sulphites be used to top up a wine currently in MLF or is there risk of inhibiting the malo?


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## Johnd

Mario Dinis said:


> Can store bought wine that contains sulphites be used to top up a wine currently in MLF or is there risk of inhibiting the malo?


 
Should be fine.not enough sulfite in the wine to affect a 5 - 6 gallon batch.


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## mainshipfred

Mario Dinis said:


> Can store bought wine that contains sulphites be used to top up a wine currently in MLF or is there risk of inhibiting the malo?



Just curious, why are you loosing wine during MLF in the first place.


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## Ajmassa

Morewines is $90 but with free shipping over $60 orders

I use lodilabs for different things and noticed they sell the same chroma kit basically for $50. Unsure of shipping costs.








ML Chromatography Kit


Includes: Chromatography Jar and Lid ML Chromatography Solution 250mL 10 sheets Chromatography Paper 100 Capillary Tubes 1.5 mL L(-) Lactic Acid Standard (200mg/100mL) 1.5 mL L(-) Malic Acid Standard (200mg/100mL) 1.5 mL L(-) Tartaric Acid Standard (200mg/100mL)




www.lodiwinelabs.com





Includes plenty to last a few years. So far only had to replace the solution and more capillary tubes

edit* I just responded to a post from sept 2019 thinking it was new.  I miss the WMT app more every day.


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## Boatboy24

Ajmassa said:


> Morewines is $90 but with free shipping over $60 orders
> 
> I use lodilabs for different things and noticed they sell the same chroma kit basically for $50. Unsure of shipping costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ML Chromatography Kit
> 
> 
> Includes: Chromatography Jar and Lid ML Chromatography Solution 250mL 10 sheets Chromatography Paper 100 Capillary Tubes 1.5 mL L(-) Lactic Acid Standard (200mg/100mL) 1.5 mL L(-) Malic Acid Standard (200mg/100mL) 1.5 mL L(-) Tartaric Acid Standard (200mg/100mL)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lodiwinelabs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Includes plenty to last a few years. So far only had to replace the solution and more capillary tubes
> 
> edit* I just responded to a post from sept 2019 thinking it was new.  I miss the WMT app more every day.



Wow! That MoreWine kit has really gone up in price. I think I paid $55 for mine.


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## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> Just curious, why are you loosing wine during MLF in the first place.


Oh no, didn't lose wine yet. My AF isn't finished yet. I was only curious about the level on the carboys after racking off the gross lees and start of MLF. Hence my question.


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## Mario Dinis

Johnd said:


> Should be fine.not enough sulfite in the wine to affect a 5 - 6 gallon batch.


Thank you for your help.


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## Mario Dinis

My MLF has been going since May 19th with VP41, but so far I've forgotten to stir the wine. I've been told that VP41 is the workhorse of MLF. Do you guys stir yours when using VP41?


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## cmason1957

Mario Dinis said:


> My MLF has been going since May 19th with VP41, but so far I've forgotten to stir the wine. I've been told that VP41 is the workhorse of MLF. Do you guys stir yours when using VP41?


I stir no matter what bacteria I use. It keeps it in suspension.


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## Mario Dinis

cmason1957 said:


> I stir no matter what bacteria I use. It keeps it in suspension.


Thanks. I should know better. I stirred mine last year with CH16. Just been forgetful.


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