# Fermentation Won't Start



## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi all,

I'm in the midst of attempting to ferment a Pinot Noir drum of my first frozen must but am now worried as I haven't been able to get fermentation to start. I know similar instances have been written about in these forums before but everything I've found seems to pertain to stuck fermentations that were already underway. 

Relavent information is below, appreciate any help you can provide, thanks!

TIMELINE:
1) Picked up frozen drum at noon on December 29th, allowed to thaw until the late morning on January 1st (so not quite 3 days of cold soak)

2) Upon opening the drum (January 1st) to transfer to my fermentation vessel (a stainless steel 290L Speidel tank), I found that the contents were about 90% thawed, w/ the last 10% (kind of a firm slushy) being somewhat easy to separate for mixture into the thawed portion

3) My next step (still January 1st) was to add a 50ppm S02 dosage (powder form) assuming 50 gallons of must

4) After above S02 dosage, I then waited ~16 hours to inoculate. This is perhaps where I made a mistake as I'd been under the impression that 12 hours was enough time but I read later that 24 hours was recommended.

5) For inoculation (now January 2nd), I followed MoreWinemaking's directions on preparing a yeast starter. It consisted of Spring water (no chlorine but still containing minerals), GoFerm (1.25 grams to 1 gram of yeast), and RC212 yeast (8 packets of 5 grams, which at 40 total grams is less than I'd wanted for my 50 gallons of must but I'd make a miscalculation during my purchase process and didn't have as much as I'd wanted). Temperature at pitch was likely a bit colder than I'd have liked (low-mid 60's) but I'm not entirely sure as I'd broken my floating thermometer during sanitization and inexplicably didn't have any backup options (note that I was in the middle of ordering multiple means of measuring temperature as I didn't want to reply on any one tool). Regardless, I began raising the temperature of the room (via space heater) to a 68-70 degree (F) range.

6) Since inoculating on January 2nd, I've seen little to no signs of fermentation (it's now January 6th). Concerned that perhaps my original S02 dosage was still prevalent when I pitched my yeast/starter, I'd read that rigorous/frequent stirring could help dissipate it in route to kickstarting the fermentation. I've been doing that since January 4th but have had no luck. There's been more bubbles/foaming around the rim of the tank but I'm not sure if that's oxygen that I'd stirred in or C02 from fermentation (see attached picture, which is the way it's looked from January 4th to today, January 6th).

Per everything above, do I simply need to re-inoculate? If so, do I assume an entirely new/full dosage (this time at 50 grams)? If so, do I also do another yeast starter or is that too much GoFerm in the must? Note that once fermentation is underway, I plan to use Fermaid-O at recommended intervals.

Thanks all!


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## sour_grapes (Jan 6, 2018)

It certainly looks to me like fermentation has started. "Houston, we have liftoff!"


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

Hi @sour_grapes, appreciate the response. 

However, the image depicts what I've seen every day for the last 3-4 days (meaning nothing seems to be changing in terms of more bubbles/foaming or development of a cap). Would you continue to wait for changes and if so, at what point would you take different action (ie re-inoculating)?

Thanks!


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## mainshipfred (Jan 6, 2018)

I think it's going also, have you taken a gravity reading lately? RC212 is a low foaming yeast.


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## stickman (Jan 6, 2018)

I agree with @sour_grapes It looks like fermentation has started. The must temperature may have been a bit low based on your timeline. RC212 likes a slightly warm must starting temperature around 64F; you can get it going at cooler temps, but it requires delicate handling by making sure the yeast starter is no more than 10F different than the must. The perimeter is fermenting, because it is warmer there than in the middle.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> I think it's going also, have you taken a gravity reading lately? RC212 is a low foaming yeast.



Hi @mainshipfred - haven't taken a gravity reading but that's a good idea, also wasn't aware that RC212 was a low foaming yeast so appreciate that insight.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

stickman said:


> I agree with @sour_grapes It looks like fermentation has started. The must temperature may have been a bit low based on your timeline. RC212 likes a slightly warm must starting temperature around 64F; you can get it going at cooler temps, but it requires delicate handling by making sure the yeast starter is no more than 10F different than the must. The perimeter is fermenting, because it is warmer there than in the middle.



Hi @stickman - Good points, you're probably right regarding the low starting temperature and there may have been more than a 10F difference between the yeast starter and the must.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

All - is it safe to assume I should discontinue stirring to dissipate S02 based on my original theory of it being prevalent?

Also, given that the rate of bubble/foam formation has been slow to increase and I haven't seen any cap formation in 4 days, how long should I wait before some other action (ie re-inoculation) is taken?

Huge thanks for all your help/reassurance!


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## mainshipfred (Jan 6, 2018)

I've never done a drum or anything close but after rereading your original post I have to pose a few questions others may be better to answer.
1. Is the drum crushed grapes or juice with some skins left in?
2. It is my understanding when making additions to the must you use the amount of wine expected rather then the initial volume of the must.
3. The must could have had S02 added initially so if your calc for added S02 didn't take into consideration any potential initial S02 you could be way over 50 ppm.
4. If you used the volume of must to calc the S02 addition rather then the wine you could be even higher.

Again, all this coming from a beginner so take it with a grain of NaCl.


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## stickman (Jan 6, 2018)

@mainshipfred When it comes to so2 additions to the must, you typically use the total must volume, so I think he is ok there. You do bring up a good point regarding so2 addition by the supplier, that should be reviewed. With frozen must, the main issue is temperature, the cap should form when the must temperature gets up to around 65F or so.


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## dralarms (Jan 6, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> It certainly looks to me like fermentation has started. "Houston, we have liftoff!"



Correct



mainshipfred said:


> I think it's going also, have you taken a gravity reading lately? RC212 is a low foaming yeast.



Again correct, rc-212 is a low foam yeast, I use it sometimes but I use 71b-1122 the most. Or a hard to start one I'll hit it with ec-1118


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## ceeaton (Jan 6, 2018)

Hey @joshjacobsen, I haven't seen a reading for your temperature, what's it at? Do you have any way, if it's in the low 60's to raise it up to around 70*F with that fancy fermenter you are using?

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw it embedded in your longer post. Just ignore me (like my wife) and I'll eventually go away!


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> I've never done a drum or anything close but after rereading your original post I have to pose a few questions others may be better to answer.
> 1. Is the drum crushed grapes or juice with some skins left in?
> 2. It is my understanding when making additions to the must you use the amount of wine expected rather then the initial volume of the must.
> 3. The must could have had S02 added initially so if your calc for added S02 didn't take into consideration any potential initial S02 you could be way over 50 ppm.
> ...



@mainshipfred - answers to your question are as follows:

1. Frozen musts are comprised of crushed grapes and their respective juice, the drum is just the largest size (ie 50-55 gallons)
2. I was under the impression that S02 additions are made w/ the entire must volume in mind (given binding) and that other additions (ie Tartaric Acid) are made w/ the expected final wine volume.
3. I can confirm that there was no S02 added to the original must
4. See #2

Thanks!


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

stickman said:


> @mainshipfred When it comes to so2 additions to the must, you typically use the total must volume, so I think he is ok there. You do bring up a good point regarding so2 addition by the supplier, that should be reviewed. With frozen must, the main issue is temperature, the cap should form when the must temperature gets up to around 65F or so.



@stickman - Thanks for confirming S02 dosage against total must volume vs. expected final wine volume. Reiterating that there was no S02 addition by the supplier. 

Also, the room and tank temperature is between 65-70F, hence my concern regarding lack of cap forming.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

dralarms said:


> Correct
> 
> 
> 
> Again correct, rc-212 is a low foam yeast, I use it sometimes but I use 71b-1122 the most. Or a hard to start one I'll hit it with ec-1118



Thanks @dralarms - this is my first time using rc-212 so I'm definitely taking these things into consideration in the future.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> Hey @joshjacobsen, I haven't seen a reading for your temperature, what's it at? Do you have any way, if it's in the low 60's to raise it up to around 70*F with that fancy fermenter you are using?
> 
> Edit: Nevermind, I just saw it embedded in your longer post. Just ignore me (like my wife) and I'll eventually go away!



@ceeaton - Haha, i've got some non-fancy fermenters as well . Thanks for the input regarding temperature, I know you edited after you saw mention in my post but it's good to know I'm in the right range.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 6, 2018)

Reiterating my appreciation for everyone's input. I do want to make sure my last question doesn't get lost in the dialogue so repasting below:

"...is it safe to assume I should discontinue stirring to dissipate S02 based on my original theory of it being prevalent?

Also, given that the rate of bubble/foam formation has been slow to increase and I haven't seen any cap formation in 4 days, how long should I wait before some other action (ie re-inoculation) is taken?..."


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## Scooter68 (Jan 6, 2018)

Haven't seen anything about an updated SG reading? That is the only measurement that matters when trying to find out if fermentation is occurring. Some wines and yeast don't really foam much at all some combinations act like a washing machine with too much soap. 
Until you take an SG reading and compare that with the original reading it's all just speculation.


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## sdelli (Jan 7, 2018)

Scooter68 said:


> Haven't seen anything about an updated SG reading? That is the only measurement that matters when trying to find out if fermentation is occurring. Some wines and yeast don't really foam much at all some combinations act like a washing machine with too much soap.
> Until you take an SG reading and compare that with the original reading it's all just speculation.



Totally agree!


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## mainshipfred (Jan 7, 2018)

joshjacobsen said:


> @mainshipfred - answers to your question are as follows:
> 
> 1. Frozen musts are comprised of crushed grapes and their respective juice, the drum is just the largest size (ie 50-55 gallons)
> 2. I was under the impression that S02 additions are made w/ the entire must volume in mind (given binding) and that other additions (ie Tartaric Acid) are made w/ the expected final wine volume.
> ...



Thanks for clearing that up for me. A drum is more then I would like to make of a single wine but the the thread has intrigued me. If you don't mind, who did you get it from?


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks for clearing that up for me. A drum is more then I would like to make of a single wine but the the thread has intrigued me. If you don't mind, who did you get it from?



@mainshipfred - no problem! You can purchase a pale (5-6 gallons, can't recall) as well.

A popular source for frozen musts is Brehm Vineyards (https://www.brehmvineyards.com/, though you can also purchase via morewinemaking.com). Some of the grapes are from their own vineyards in Washington state while some are from other vineyards (ie in California) who they've established partnerships with. You can have them shipped or can pick-up in person (which obviously saves you shipping costs) if you're near one of their storage locations. I know there's another source, I believe on the East Coast, that I've heard people reference multiple times but your location and the inventory of whomever you're considering would probably make one more appropriate than the other. Good luck!


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

Hi all - I'll update the thread w/ an SG reading tonight, am currently waiting for my sample to settle/clarify as the juice still contains a decent level of solids.

A couple updates:

1) On the belief that fermentation was underway, I added my half-dose of Fermaid-O but have seen no change in activity.

2) Furthermore, The bubbles/foaming depicted in my original picture have subsided to much lower (almost non-existent) amount, which seemingly reinforces my concern that the original amount of said bubbles/foam was the result of my excessive stirring (to dissipate S02) conducted shortly before the picture was taken

Per the above, my questions are as follows:

1) If my SG reading substantiates no fermentation should I re-innoculate? Or are there other alternative actions?

2) Will there be any negative side effect from the existence of my original yeast/Go-Ferm in the must? 

3) Should I wait a certain amount of time given my recent Fermaid-O addition?

4) Should I be concerned w/ oxygenation given that my original S02 dosage was on 1/1, I've been stirring regularly dissipate it, and there's no C02 being produced by an active fermentation?

Thanks in advance!


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## stickman (Jan 8, 2018)

1) yes, re-inocculate

2) No negative side effect associated with the original yeast etc.

3) do not wait any longer, re-inocculate. What is the must temperature now?

4) no problem with oxygenation now, but get an active yeast starter going asap. Any unusual odors occurring at this time?


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## Scooter68 (Jan 8, 2018)

I wouldn't wait for the solids to drop out of the sample. Unless your wine must is the consistency of apple sauce causing the hydrometer to 'stick'/stop before settling - those solids aren't going to prevent an accurate reading. Remember you are just trying to assess what progress has been made, not get down to super-accurate reading. When there are a lot of solids in my must I sanitize a small glass and slide it done the edge of the bucket so that little to no significant solids end up in my sample. Establishing the presence of fermentation is much more important now that deciding if the reading is 1.075 or 1.072. If it started at `1.085 (For example) and it's now 1.075, then your fermentation is running on the slow side and needs a little 'inspiration' to ferment faster. If it started at `1.085 and it's now at 1.055, then there isn't a lot to worry about now.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

stickman said:


> 1) yes, re-inocculate
> 
> 2) No negative side effect associated with the original yeast etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks @stickman, will re-inoculate ASAP. To answer your questions, temperature is hovering between 68-70F, no unusual odors thus far.

Do you have a recommended yeast strain? I'd originally used RC 212 but I just read that it's alcohol tolerance is 12-14% (something I'd overlooked as my Brix/SG looks to be 25/1.11 respectively, so potentially 15% alcohol).

Given my sensitivity to non-starters, I'd considered the following:

-BM45 (long lag, moderate fermenter, 16% ABV tolerance)
-RP15 (N/A lag, moderate fermenter, 16% ABV tolerance)
-W15 (short lag, moderate fermenter, 16% ABV tolerance) < likely choice

Also, I know EC 1118 is supposedly a tried/true beast but there was mention of high S02 production that'd inhibit MLF (which I plan to do). 

Thoughts on the above or any others?


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

Scooter68 said:


> I wouldn't wait for the solids to drop out of the sample. Unless your wine must is the consistency of apple sauce causing the hydrometer to 'stick'/stop before settling - those solids aren't going to prevent an accurate reading. Remember you are just trying to assess what progress has been made, not get down to super-accurate reading. When there are a lot of solids in my must I sanitize a small glass and slide it done the edge of the bucket so that little to no significant solids end up in my sample. Establishing the presence of fermentation is much more important now that deciding if the reading is 1.075 or 1.072. If it started at `1.085 (For example) and it's now 1.075, then your fermentation is running on the slow side and needs a little 'inspiration' to ferment faster. If it started at `1.085 and it's now at 1.055, then there isn't a lot to worry about now.



Thanks @Scooter68 - I took a reading w/ said solids still unsettled and everything showed no progress (Brix/SG/Alcohol of 25/1.11/15% respectively - which I know is high for a Pinot Noir but that looks to be the case).


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## stickman (Jan 8, 2018)

This is the information I have for RC212; it looks like it is good to 16% as long as you use proper nutrients. I would get a starter going in a pail asap.


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## sdelli (Jan 8, 2018)

Am I going crazy or did you just get all the information needed to re inoculate without STILL producing any sg readings proving a stuck fermentation?


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

stickman said:


> This is the information I have for RC212; it looks like it is good to 16% as long as you use proper nutrients. I would get a starter going in a pail asap.



Thanks @stickman - I’m out of RC 212 but have the other three I mentioned, jist need to decide on which one to use. Going to prepare a starter and re-pitch tonight.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

sdelli said:


> Am I going crazy or did you just get all the information needed to re inoculate without STILL producing any sg readings proving a stuck fermentation?



Hi @sdelli - I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I’d taken a reading and that no changes were observed. Any other tips before I re-pitch? Thanks!


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## pgentile (Jan 8, 2018)

I read through this thread pretty fast, but didn't see any reference to pH or TA? If you are at 1.110 still, unless your sg was higher when you started it, I doubt fermentation is underway. I have not found RC-212 to be finicky and has started for me every time I have used it. But one thing you might want to do is check the pH of the must. If it's too low you might not have success re-pitching.

If I missed the pH reference please disregard


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## sdelli (Jan 8, 2018)

joshjacobsen said:


> Hi @sdelli - I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I’d taken a reading and that no changes were observed. Any other tips before I re-pitch? Thanks!



Thanks.... Read thru them and must of missed that


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## sdelli (Jan 8, 2018)

So since it sounds like you officially have a stuck fermentation I hope the suggestions given here get it going again. Although I have never had to deal with one the reading I spent time on was a little more involved then just pitching more yeast.... But I could be wrong. But for future reference the top three points I could give that should avoid this problem again..... 
SO2 at 50ppm not higher
When inoculate yeast it must show GREAT activity or do not pitch it.. Throw it out.
Temp of must must be 65 degree or warmer
Must temp must be within 15 degrees of yeast temp

Never had a launch go south..... After 100’s


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

pgentile said:


> I read through this thread pretty fast, but didn't see any reference to pH or TA? If you are at 1.110 still, unless your sg was higher when you started it, I doubt fermentation is underway. I have not found RC-212 to be finicky and has started for me every time I have used it. But one thing you might want to do is check the pH of the must. If it's too low you might not have success re-pitching.
> 
> If I missed the pH reference please disregard



Hi @pgentile - you're correct in that there was no pH/TA reference, see below for those figures and note the caveats:

Vineyard measurements 
-Brix: 24.3 
-TA: 8.4 
-PH: 3.46 
-Note: Represents 'average' of the entire vineyard at time of harvest

My measurements (using a Vinmetrica SC-300)
-Brix: 26 
-TA: 6.8 
-PH: 3.58 
Note: I didn't blend my must (with skins included) as directed so the above #'s could supposedly be inaccurate as I instead strained/settled a sample primarily comprised primarily of juice


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

sdelli said:


> So since it sounds like you officially have a stuck fermentation I hope the suggestions given here get it going again. Although I have never had to deal with one the reading I spent time on was a little more involved then just pitching more yeast.... But I could be wrong. But for future reference the top three points I could give that should avoid this problem again.....
> SO2 at 50ppm not higher
> When inoculate yeast it must show GREAT activity or do not pitch it.. Throw it out.
> Temp of must must be 65 degree or warmer
> ...



Thanks @sdelli, comments in response to your recommendations...

-S02 dosage was 50ppm
-The yeast starter definitely did NOT show great activity so good advice on not pitching it
-Temp of must might NOT have been 65F to start but is now at a 68-70F range so should be good there
-Must temp will be within 15F (I'd also seen mention of 10F) of yeast temp, appreciate the reminder as I'll make sure they're close


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 8, 2018)

All - really appreciate everyone's help thus far, awesome community. Will post updates as I attempt round 2, here goes...


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## stickman (Jan 9, 2018)

The rest of your must data is below.
Brix 24.3, pH 3.46, TA 8.4 g/l, Tartaric Acid 5.7 g/l, Malic Acid 4.2 g/l, YAN 450

I thought it was worth pointing out, that your must YAN (nutrient level) is very high at 450, so you don't need any additional nutrients.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 9, 2018)

stickman said:


> The rest of your must data is below.
> Brix 24.3, pH 3.46, TA 8.4 g/l, Tartaric Acid 5.7 g/l, Malic Acid 4.2 g/l, YAN 450
> 
> I thought it was worth pointing out, that your must YAN (nutrient level) is very high at 450, so you don't need any additional nutrients.



Thanks @stickman, I'd seen that YAN was 450 from the original figures provided by vineyard but I'm admittedly not as well versed on what a high vs. low YAN # is (probably something I could have learned w/ a simple Google search).

To clarify, when you say additional nutrients you're not referring to the yeast starter (in which I used GoFerm), correct? I assume you're simply saying that I can forego the use of Fermaid-O at onset and 1/3rd sugar depletion but let me know if that's not accurate.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 9, 2018)

All - no obvious signs of fermentation this morning but I only re-inoculated last night so that's seemingly normal. 

I will say that the yeast starter was night and day compared to the first one (which showed zero activity). Lots of bubbles/foaming (see pics) so that's encouraging and possibly my culprit in having originally pitched something that may have been inactive.


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## stickman (Jan 9, 2018)

You're correct, using GoFerm is fine, the Fermaid-O you added earlier should provide some vitamins that may be needed, it's not likely that more nutrients will be needed.


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## sdelli (Jan 10, 2018)

joshjacobsen said:


> All - no obvious signs of fermentation this morning but I only re-inoculated last night so that's seemingly normal.
> 
> I will say that the yeast starter was night and day compared to the first one (which showed zero activity). Lots of bubbles/foaming (see pics) so that's encouraging and possibly my culprit in having originally pitched something that may have been inactive.



Oh ya! That is what you are looking for!


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 10, 2018)

Hi all - just wanted to provide an update in that fermentation has officially begun! See attached photo depicting bubble/foam and cap formation.

Thank you again to everyone who chimed in w/ questions and advice, this was my first non-starter/stuck fermentation and it was extremely valuable having perspective from the collective community.


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## garymc (Jan 11, 2018)

I learned the hard way that having the fermentation vessel on the floor is the coldest part of the room. If the floor is a slab or concrete basement floor, even worse. I use buckets, so it's easy for me to have them on a table or counter. If your tank is sitting on a cold floor, next time, if nothing else, you might try putting a couple of 2x4s or something under it so it gets some of that 75 degree air on the bottom instead of a 60 degree slab that pulls the heat out faster than you can administer it by warming the surrounding air.


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## joshjacobsen (Jan 11, 2018)

garymc said:


> I learned the hard way that having the fermentation vessel on the floor is the coldest part of the room. If the floor is a slab or concrete basement floor, even worse. I use buckets, so it's easy for me to have them on a table or counter. If your tank is sitting on a cold floor, next time, if nothing else, you might try putting a couple of 2x4s or something under it so it gets some of that 75 degree air on the bottom instead of a 60 degree slab that pulls the heat out faster than you can administer it by warming the surrounding air.



Definitely a good reminder @garymc, though that was actually one thing I _did_ anticipate as I've had the tank placed on a wooden palette from the get-go.


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