# Do oak chips lose their flavor in the bag over time?



## JimInNJ (Jan 11, 2018)

What is the shelf life of oak (powder, shavings, chips, cubes, spheres, squares, sticks, spirals, staves)? Assuming it has been stored clean and dry.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2018)

In my eyes- Forever. 
Assuming proper storage I see no reason to think it would ever start to fade or go south. I come across a helluva lot of very old wood at work. The smell after cutting is not “less than” at all. And actually I think older oak/cedar/whatever smell a lot stronger than newer wood.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 11, 2018)

I was thinking some of the aromatics produced by toasting would be volatile.


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## stickman (Jan 11, 2018)

The metalized plastic bags are less permeable and provide longer shelf life than typical clear plastic. If you open a bag of chips and it doesn't smell like oak, they probably have lost some of their aromatics; I have noticed some generic chips being this way. A metalized bag of Stavin cubes, for example, blows you away with toasted oak aromatics. I let my nose be the guide.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 11, 2018)

So, my typical clear plastic bags of ID Carlson cubes, which after about a decade smell like absolutely nothing, are probably past their prime. Good thing I also have a shiny new unopened metalized bag of Stavin cubes.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2018)

Has anyone here ever taken their oak cubes/staves/whatever and actually toasted them themselves before using?


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## JimInNJ (Jan 12, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Has anyone here ever taken their oak cubes/staves/whatever and actually toasted them themselves before using?


Sounds like a fun experiment. I wonder if anyone here has started with selecting a tree, then harvesting, cutting, seasoning and toasting. Or simply used an oven to increase the toast level of existing oak products, or perhaps in an attempt to refresh old oak. Any barrel makers here? For now, I think I'll stick with buying known good products, and leave the cooperage to the professionals. Although some might say the same about making wine. ;-)


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2018)

I do recall one fellow who harvested his own (dying) tree, milled it, and built his wine rack out of it! Does that count?

DIYers: Remember to use white oak, not red oak.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 12, 2018)

I think it’s not too uncommon of thing actually. Not the whole tree bit lol, but tossing your chips or cubes in the oven for some extra toast on em. Same general theory when reconditioning used barrels. Just don’t hear it mentioned here ever.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 12, 2018)

So far I’ve used poweder, chips, cubes and spirals. Gonna gives staves a shot next I think. But I have not yet found a barrel alternative that does what I really want it to do. 
Function wise I do Chips and powder solely in fermentation’s now. No more cubes for me cuz because removal requires racking. Spirals on fishing line work great. 
The American heavy spirals were like a shot in the arm to the wine. Way too much too fast. Too easy to overdo it. I think I’m off American all together now. 
Going for French or Hungarian staves — at least until I buy a whole bunch of staves held together with metal bands with a top and bottom assembled on it. Soon enough. [emoji1303]


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## mainshipfred (Jan 13, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I do recall one fellow who harvested his own (dying) tree, milled it, and built his wine rack out of it! Does that count?
> 
> DIYers: Remember to use white oak, not red oak.



Paul, why not red? Just curious.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 13, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Paul, why not red? Just curious.


From what I understand red oak gives off a horrible taste, like cat urine. Now I do wonder who tasted that too know.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 13, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Paul, why not red? Just curious.



Because Home Depot sells red oak. And that would make life too easy !
I made a punch down tool out of red oak. Only punched a couple times with it. But a cat urine taste? She might be heading for early retirement.


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## JimInNJ (Jan 13, 2018)

Just the thing to emphasize the thiols in Sauvignon Blanc.


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## kevinlfifer (Mar 6, 2018)

Sour grapes,

That was me. I used the dead Ash to build with. BUT, I have been toasting my own oak for a couple of seasons now. Fresh oak truly makes a difference. I liken it to coffee roasting, old beans have lost a lot of flavor. I have started to prep for a small business selling oak. I will reach out for the proper way to advertise here when I have all the equipment in place.

My concept is to roast on demand to order specs so it is fresh when you receive the oak.


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## JimInNJ (Mar 6, 2018)

kevinlfifer said:


> I liken it to coffee roasting



Now you have me envisioning oak cubes tumbling in my coffee roaster. Must resist the temptation.

Isn't the seasoning one of the most important parts? How do you manage that?


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## kevinlfifer (Mar 6, 2018)

I am getting white oak that has been kiln dried, or in dry storage for a year. in 2015, I used some that was fresh cut from a tree trunk that had been down for a year. It was really aromatic and made the best wine I have ever made. The smell of the fresh cut white oak is very pleasant and quite distinguishable from any other wood.


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## joeswine (Mar 6, 2018)

Just a thought, if you took your first time used oak and no matter what type rinsed them and then let them soak in a deluction of liquid smoke and water let it set overnight. Then drained and placed in a metal baking rack in the over on the warm setting for 1 hour or so I'll bet you they'll be good to use one more time.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 7, 2018)

kevinlfifer said:


> Sour grapes,
> 
> That was me. I used the dead Ash to build with. BUT, I have been toasting my own oak for a couple of seasons now. Fresh oak truly makes a difference. I liken it to coffee roasting, old beans have lost a lot of flavor. I have started to prep for a small business selling oak. I will reach out for the proper way to advertise here when I have all the equipment in place.
> 
> My concept is to roast on demand to order specs so it is fresh when you receive the oak.



Nice. I couldn't remember who it was. You'd think with the GPS thing, I'd have a better fix on you!


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## kevinlfifer (Mar 7, 2018)

Joe, 
I've used liquid smoke to cook with before. I don't see it giving notes of caramel, chocolate, or vanilla, but rather bacon. I've recycled my own sticks by splitting them then doubling up. It seemed to work. Even though they sank to the bottom, the wine does not totally penetrate the sticks. I kept them frozen to avoid mold while waiting to use them again.

Here is some heavy toast. I took the picture of them for my Amazon listing, then tossed them all in 8 carboys of Cab Sav.

I ordered a conveyor oven, When that gets here I'll be ready to try to sell some. Or resell an oven??


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## Mismost (Mar 7, 2018)

joeswine said:


> Just a thought, if you took your first time used oak and no matter what type rinsed them and then let them soak in a deluction of liquid smoke and water let it set overnight. Then drained and placed in a metal baking rack in the over on the warm setting for 1 hour or so I'll bet you they'll be good to use one more time.



Man that liquid smoke is some kinda powerful and all I have ever seen is Hickory. a Bottle cap full in ten pounds of sausage makes "smoked sausage". I'd be using drops in wine....fact is, I don't think I would try it!
We got carried away one year with liquid smoke and made a batch of HICKORY sausage...could not hardly taste the meat....but a couple of links in a BIG pot of beans made good eating...but even the toots smelled like hickory!!


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## joeswine (Mar 7, 2018)

Remember that old addage,a little goes a long way..just like the zest.remember ,just a couple of drops you should experiment...you do know you can buy liquid oak.


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## BryanM362 (Mar 10, 2018)

kevinlfifer said:


> Joe,
> I've used liquid smoke to cook with before. I don't see it giving notes of caramel, chocolate, or vanilla, but rather bacon. I've recycled my own sticks by splitting them then doubling up. It seemed to work. Even though they sank to the bottom, the wine does not totally penetrate the sticks. I kept them frozen to avoid mold while waiting to use them again.
> 
> Here is some heavy toast. I took the picture of them for my Amazon listing, then tossed them all in 8 carboys of Cab Sav.
> ...



Hey I see Ohio on your bag in the pic. I'm near Cincinnati, where are you?


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## kevinlfifer (Mar 13, 2018)

BryanM362 said:


> Hey I see Ohio on your bag in the pic. I'm near Cincinnati, where are you?



Way at the other end of I-75 Maumee, west of Toledo


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## Kiazer (Apr 27, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> Sounds like a fun experiment. I wonder if anyone here has started with selecting a tree, then harvesting, cutting, seasoning and toasting. Or simply used an oven to increase the toast level of existing oak products, or perhaps in an attempt to refresh old oak. Any barrel makers here? For now, I think I'll stick with buying known good products, and leave the cooperage to the professionals. Although some might say the same about making wine. ;-)


Youtube has a few guys (How To) They dry and roast chips and cubes/chunks slowly in stoves in their garages. Personally I buy a 1 lb bag that lasts me 2 years at $25......to each there own, there is no right or wrong


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