# Question about TWC training...



## SundownVineyard (Jun 13, 2019)

I have a backyard vineyard of 25 vines. A few varieties are on TWC: America, Baco Noir and Marquette. They are on their 3rd year and most have established cordons and spurs. They are doing great, but the shoots seem to all be growing upward. I have read that certain grape varieties naturally have a downward growth habit, so TWC is ideal for those varieties. Double A nursery recommended that I grow these 3 on TWC. When I prune, should I be selecting for downward-oriented spurs so the shoots more naturally hang down, or do I reduce the ends of the shoots to encourage downward growth?? I thought that TWC didnt require much shoot training/positioning like VSP or MWC. I'll try to add some pictures, but any feedback would be greatly appreciated!


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## Masbustelo (Jun 13, 2019)

I hear what you are saying. I have Petite Pearl, which are supposed to be downward trailing. The truth is they go anywhere they want to. Ultimately we are growing fancy weeds. Tests have been done to decide which trellis produces the most tonnage per acre, not which trellis most politely manages the vines.Top wire cordon, where indicated by variety should give you the most production, but not the most orderly. Everyday, I play around with mine trying to keep them orderly and sorted out. Some of the buds are oriented upward and there isn't anything you can do about it.


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## SundownVineyard (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks for the reply. I have been watching some videos on mechanized pruning of TWC vines and it looks like they just cut anything growing outward and upward while combing them down to give them the form they want. I have a small set up, so I will keep playing with them.


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## GreginND (Jun 13, 2019)

I have Marquette and frontenacs on TWC and they do fine. The shoots start to grow up but it won't be long when the weight starts trailing them down. It also helps to develop your spurs and shoots pointing more in a downward position. They really are easy to comb down straight once they get long enough. Snipping off tendrils when they are growing upward helps for later position down also.

On another note, our university is doing a trellis study. This past winter has been extremely problematic for Marquette up here in ND and across MN and WI. Anecdotally, there seems to be more bud survival on TWC than on VSP. I'm looking forward to more conclusive results. But that would correlate with the fact that the coldest of the cold air settles lower to the ground.


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## SundownVineyard (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks!


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## Masbustelo (Jun 13, 2019)

One final thought or observation I had. I have read that vineyards that have tourists and weddings etc., will plant vertical shoot positioning where the vines will be seen, because it's tidier. Note that it is a shoot positioning system. If an individual has a natural desire for order, vsp might be worth looking into.


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## SundownVineyard (Jun 13, 2019)

Makes sense. I have other trellises of VSP and MWC.


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## BigH (Jun 13, 2019)

SundownVineyard said:


> A few varieties are on TWC: America, Baco Noir and Marquette. They are on their 3rd year and most have established cordons and spurs. They are doing great, but the shoots seem to all be growing upward.



In my vineyard, everything seems to grow upward until it reaches 3 to 4 feet in length. At that point, some varieties start to lay down nicely on their own (brianna, petite pearl, st croix, and the frontenacs). Some varieties try to stay more upright and need to be aggressively combed down. La Crescent and La Crosse still like to grow upright. I have seen laterals emerge from within a few inches of the ground that skyrocket upward and reach the fruiting wire at 6 feet.

Marquette has a somewhat upright growth habit. It doesn't settle down as well as the first group I mentioned, but it doesn't have the problem with upright laterals that La Crosse and La Crescent do. My marquette usually looks like this late in the season.




H


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## BRK (Aug 12, 2020)

Just read this now. Followed a link from Google then became a member to post. Excellent information. I have been looking all over to see how to train my 3 y/o grapes that I have trellised in a top wire cordon. Some of them go straight up and I have been coaxing them down. I was hoping I didn't make a mistake and needed to train them by vertical shoot positioning. I followed the instructions. So it is ok to coax them down and tie them to the middle and lower wires (3 wire system)? I am trying to find shoots that come off the bottom but they are rare.


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## BigH (Aug 13, 2020)

BRK said:


> So it is ok to coax them down and tie them to the middle and lower wires (3 wire system)? I am trying to find shoots that come off the bottom but they are rare.



Yes, when they are long enough and strong enough to take the abuse. If I haven't hopelessly fallen behind, I start shoot positioning around the 3rd week of June in Iowa when most shoots are at least 4 feet long or so.

H


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## BRK (Aug 13, 2020)

BigH said:


> Yes, when they are long enough and strong enough to take the abuse. If I haven't hopelessly fallen behind, I start shoot positioning around the 3rd week of June in Iowa when most shoots are at least 4 feet long or so.
> 
> H


Thank you very much for the response. Do you have any reference that discusses this kind of pruning?


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## VillaVino (Sep 12, 2020)

I have my Marquettes, Sabrevois, Brianna, Prairie Star and Lacresents on VSP and don’t have a problem. My Louise Swensons are on TWC and I find them difficult to manage. I’ve tried to put a couple on VSP but they ended up just flowing downward anyway no matter how much I tried to get them going vertical. I really hedge the heck out of these so I can spray round up underneath. They are a very prolific grape growing vine. A good filler for the wineries.


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## BRK (Oct 7, 2020)

Thank you. Should I prune them down after the winter and change over to VSP?


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## BigH (Oct 7, 2020)

BRK said:


> Thank you. Should I prune them down after the winter and change over to VSP?



Changing to VSP requires running catch wires and a low fruiting wire. I would personally not switch everything over, but that is me. I don't grow baco noir or america.

H


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## tom6922 (Oct 8, 2020)

I grew my Marquette on VSP for 5 years, then converted them to HWC for the past 3 years (Michigan). Marquette likes to grow in all directions and VSP required a lot of training and tieing off. That's fine if you have a small vineyard and have the time. I was also hoping for lower acid and higher ph, which was indicated in some studies, but I haven't noticed any difference. Also with yield I really haven't noticed a big difference. I have found that as the grapes grow, the vines bend downward and form a downward shape, which lessens the amount of canopy work. One issue with TWC is that the grapes are more exposed to birds. I do net, but the birds are aggressive and push the net onto the grapes, so I now string wires above the net to create more clearance. Spraying is a bit easier with VSP (I use a backpack), since the canopy isn't as dense. Both systems worked fine for me, VSP looks nicer but takes a bit more work.


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## montanarick (Oct 8, 2020)

I originally had all my Marquette, Frontenac Noir, Blanc and Gris on 4-Arm Kniffen. Last winter i cut it all down and started with VSP. Much happier with that - it's easier for me to tend and birds posed no problem at all this year with netting. In prior years the birds would pretty much pick all the grapes on top wire clean. 

On the other hand I've left my Petite Pearl on 4-arm Kniffen. since the shoots aren't as vigorous, and don't droop down as much as the other varietals, even the top wire berries are pretty much shielded from birds.


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