# How to perform extended maceration?



## Dom Lausic (Jan 20, 2019)

Hello All,

Getting ready to make a wine kit that comes with must and grape skins. Going to be fermenting in a 7 gal bucket. Looking to carry out extended maceration. How do you guys typically carry this out? Do i have to refrigerate that fermenting bucket after primary is complete? Or is there another way to do this? Looking for some help and suggestions.

Thx!


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## tradowsk (Jan 21, 2019)

I did a 6 week EM on an Eclipse Lodi cab sauv a few months ago.

The EM is very simple: just dump the skins into primary, ferment as usual punching down the cap and stirring twice daily. Once you drop below 1.020 SG, give 1 final punchdown and stir, and add an airlock. Then just wait, no refrigeration needed. I gave my bucket a bit of a sloshing every few days but the skins will sink to the bottom after 3 weeks or so, and that won't be necessary.

The idea is to let the wine extract tannins and other compounds from the skins through extended contact. I went 6 weeks, but others have done 8-10 weeks (though with skins from a kit, idk if that's necessary).


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## jgmann67 (Jan 21, 2019)

Similar here. 

After a couple weeks, your fermentation is usually done. I check to see if I’m at 0.990, hit the wine with Kmeta and seal it up for another month.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 21, 2019)

Amazing! That's great to know. I always thought EM would have to be carried out with refrigeration or pumping of gasses. I guess once you've sealed off primary, and don't open the lid, there is no way for oxygen to get in, keeping everything safe.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 21, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> Similar here.
> 
> After a couple weeks, your fermentation is usually done. I check to see if I’m at 0.990, hit the wine with Kmeta and seal it up for another month.



How much Kmeta did you use?


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## jsbeckton (Jan 21, 2019)

I go 6-8 weeks and don’t add kmeta and haven’t had any issues.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 21, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> How much Kmeta did you use?



Your wine is so loaded with CO2, it tolerates the EM no problem. 

I just hit it with the Kmeta packet from the kit or the 1/4 tsp dose I do every 3 months.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 21, 2019)

tradowsk said:


> I did a 6 week EM on an Eclipse Lodi cab sauv a few months ago.
> 
> The EM is very simple: just dump the skins into primary, ferment as usual punching down the cap and stirring twice daily. Once you drop below 1.020 SG, give 1 final punchdown and stir, and add an airlock. Then just wait, no refrigeration needed. I gave my bucket a bit of a sloshing every few days but the skins will sink to the bottom after 3 weeks or so, and that won't be necessary.
> 
> The idea is to let the wine extract tannins and other compounds from the skins through extended contact. I went 6 weeks, but others have done 8-10 weeks (though with skins from a kit, idk if that's necessary).



Is your “bucket” just a typical 7.9gal bucket? With the lid’s gasket not 100% and no ability for visual checks I didn’t think anyone used em for EM. 
Or are you referring to those plastic vessels with the wide screw-on lids. I don’t own one but if I were doing an EM on a kit they are 100% what i’d use. The Fermonster, Big Mouth Billy Bubbler, or a conical or something. But @Dom_Lausic mentions he’s using the standard bucket. Personally I would be hesitant to use that. 
Although I have been flirting with the idea of an EM on an all grape batch by just putting plastic directly on the cap- like a DIY floating lid. I’ve done this to buy time once or twice, but have seen others go weeks like that.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 21, 2019)

Hey @Ajmassa5983, yes its a standard 7.9 gal bucket. Was thinking of using the Fermonster, but I already own a couple of buckets.

@jgmann67 what fermentation vessel do you use for your EM?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 21, 2019)

I'm using a Fermonster and bought it just for EM. I'm going to try a small batch of all grape wine with it either this spring or fall.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 21, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Hey @Ajmassa5983, yes its a standard 7.9 gal bucket. Was thinking of using the Fermonster, but I already own a couple of buckets.
> 
> @jgmann67 what fermentation vessel do you use for your EM?



Fermonster. Really like seeing the action through clear plastic.


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## ceeaton (Jan 21, 2019)

I used one of these (https://morewinemaking.com/products/speidel-plastic-fermenter-30l-79-gal.html) and really liked it. Not clear like the Fermonster, but very well made, nice thick plastic, nice large opening for cleaning, two well place handles to help you move it around, spigot if you want to rack that way, oversized airlock that allows you to ferment and EM in the same vessel.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 21, 2019)

Although I do like the Fermonster & Speidel fermenters, is the bucket possible, or is it a bad idea all together?? I don't mind upgrading the fermenter to either of these, but I'd have to order one and wait for shipping.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 21, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Although I do like the Fermonster & Speidel fermenters, is the bucket possible, or is it a bad idea all together?? I don't mind upgrading the fermenter to either of these, but I'd have to order one and wait for shipping.



I think you’re fine as long as you can seal and airlock your wine. I would Kmeta at 2 weeks just to be on the safe side.


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## jsbeckton (Jan 21, 2019)

If you add an airlock at 1.010-1.020 and are not opening after that I fail to see a need for kmeta unless you are not confident in the integrity of your vessel. That wine will be full of CO2, as will any headspace.

Adding kmeta isn’t going to hurt anything but don’t stress over it if you don’t get to it. I just try to add only what I need.


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## tradowsk (Jan 21, 2019)

I just use a standard 7.9 gallon plastic bucket. The lid has a rubber gasket in it so it will seal tightly unlike the cheap ones.

I did put a 1/4tsp kmeta dose at week 3 just to be safe, but I probably didn't need to


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## Ajmassa (Jan 21, 2019)

tradowsk said:


> I just use a standard 7.9 gallon plastic bucket. The lid has a rubber gasket in it so it will seal tightly unlike the cheap ones.
> 
> I did put a 1/4tsp kmeta dose at week 3 just to be safe, but I probably didn't need to



Nice! This is solid info to learn that you’ve done EM in a 7.9gal bucket without issue. Its useful for anyone thinking of performing an EM but hesitant to do so with a bubbler or fermonster- myself included.


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## dmguptill (Jan 22, 2019)

I did two 8 week EMs side by side on the Master Vintner 2016 limited cab and merlot using a standard bucket. They were 6.5 gallon buckets I think, and just had a little rubber gas relief valve on top. No problems with oxidation that I could tell.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 22, 2019)

Ok great! Going to give the bucket a shot and will post an update. 

Next question, will treating the must with Kmeta affect MLF?? In the past, I have done MLF after AF. Should i consider co-inoculating?


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## cmason1957 (Jan 22, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Ok great! Going to give the bucket a shot and will post an update.
> 
> Next question, will treating the must with Kmeta affect MLF?? In the past, I have done MLF after AF. Should i consider co-inoculating?


Is this a kit you are thinking of doing Mlf on? Conventional wisdom says this will end poorly,if you can even get Mlf to succeed in a kit.


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## tradowsk (Jan 22, 2019)

You can't do MLF with juice from a kit. The malic acid they add is synthetic and can't be broken down by the bacteria.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 23, 2019)

Wow, didn't realize that! Thanks for letting me know.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 23, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> Is this a kit you are thinking of doing Mlf on? Conventional wisdom says this will end poorly,if you can even get Mlf to succeed in a kit.


Yes, it was a kit. Seems like it wouldn't be a good idea….


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## tradowsk (Jan 23, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Wow, didn't realize that! Thanks for letting me know.



I was planning on doing MLF too before someone on here mentioned it wouldn't work, saved me a lot of hassle haha


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## masic2000 (Jan 23, 2019)

What would be the next step after an initial EM. Do you rack for secondary or has that now taken place as part of your EM. In which case you would move to stabilization if your SG is .996 or less and do you remove the skins at this point and add your k-meta as usual.


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## Hordak (Jan 23, 2019)

I rack to carboy (removing all skins), add K-Meta (I don't add the sorbate as I don't sweeten), sometimes I make a second tannin addition like Tannin Riche, Biotan, or Quertannin and then make sure the carboy is topped up. Over the next few days I degas using my vacuum pump or you can just stir vigorously and then I let it sit upwards of a month again. Rack again and then I add my oak additions and it stays in carboy another 2-3months. Rack and then it can be bottled anytime when convenient. The most important lesson I've learned is to KEEP THE WINE TOPPED UP. I lost an expensive batch this past summer cause it had oxidized too much as I was lazy with the topping up.


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## masic2000 (Jan 23, 2019)

Great. Thanks Hordak.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 24, 2019)

Just received by wine kit. It's from Argentia Ridge, Reserve Amarone 23L. Description said it can with 23L of "must", but looks to just be juice. It came with a bag of dried grape currants (raisins). Thought it would have had the bag of grape skins like other premium kits, but guess not. How long should I try the EM for? Not sure if the dried grape currants need as much time??


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## Ajmassa (Jan 24, 2019)

I’m sure your itching to get started. But here’s a link to a separate grape pack I’ve used before.
I’d go as long as you initially planned regardless. Whole point is to get the most out of the little bit that’s in there, right? The dried grapes was likely a calcualated decision since its “Amarone” and an attempt to mimic the appassimento process. 

Also I’ve noticed my Chilean juice buckets refer to the contents as ‘must’. I don’t think it’s intentionally misleading. 


http://www.juicegrape.com/Mosti-Mondiale-All-Grape-Pack/


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 24, 2019)

Awesome! I'll definitely check it out!

Any yeast suggestions for an Amarone?? Don't want to use the EC-118, and my local wine supply store carries RC-212. But wanted to know if there were a few better options??


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## cmason1957 (Jan 24, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Awesome! I'll definitely check it out!
> 
> Any yeast suggestions for an Amarone?? Don't want to use the EC-118, and my local wine supply store carries RC-212. But wanted to know if there were a few better options??



Amarone are often fairly high alcohol wines (upwards of 15-17%abv), EC-1118 may be the best bet to handle that. RC-212 is only good to about 14% as I recall.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 24, 2019)

I have used BM45 on Amarones to good effect.


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## crushday (Jan 24, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Just received by wine kit. It's from Argentia Ridge, Reserve Amarone 23L. Description said it can with 23L of "must", but looks to just be juice. It came with a bag of dried grape currants (raisins). Thought it would have had the bag of grape skins like other premium kits, but guess not. How long should I try the EM for? Not sure if the dried grape currants need as much time??


Are you in Canada? I don't believe that Costco in the USA sells wine kits.


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## Dom Lausic (Jan 25, 2019)

George Burgin said:


> Are you in Canada? I don't believe that Costco in the USA sells wine kits.


Yes, I live just outside of Toronto. This is my first Argentia Ridge (Costco.ca) kit, but it's received decent reviews for a mid-line wine kit. Especially considering the Costco pricing. But I just found out that Vineco, who makes Cellar Craft kits, is in St. Catherine's, ON (about 50 min from me). I'm hoping to find good deals for one of those!


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 25, 2019)

BM4X4 on many of my Italian reds.


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## Dom Lausic (Feb 11, 2019)

So just getting ready to start EM on my wine kit. SG was 1.020. Performed one last "punchdown" to the cap, and closed the lid of my bucket. This morning there is still a fair bit of bubbling in the airlock. I gave the bucket a little swirl as to not splash the juice up into the airlock. 

How often should I "swirl" over the course of the EM period?

Is there anything else I should be doing??


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## tradowsk (Feb 11, 2019)

I would swirl maybe once a day for the next week or so. You mainly want to keep the skins floating on top moist so they don't start to spoil or make vinegar. Once the skins sink, you can just leave it alone.

I did add a dose of kmeta about 3 weeks in out of paranoia, though probably not necessary.


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## Dom Lausic (Feb 11, 2019)

Does it need an aggressive "swirl"? Or just a subtle movement? I'm fermenting in a 7.9 gal bucket so I can see whether the skins have fallen yet.... And I just "swirled" a little to aggressively and got a bunch of wine in the airlock!


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## Trick (Feb 11, 2019)

I usually hold two gallons of juice at the beginning and incrementally add juice into the fermenter to extend the CO2 generation for at least 4 to 5 weeks.


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## tradowsk (Feb 11, 2019)

Dom Lausic said:


> Does it need an aggressive "swirl"? Or just a subtle movement? I'm fermenting in a 7.9 gal bucket so I can see whether the skins have fallen yet.... And I just "swirled" a little to aggressively and got a bunch of wine in the airlock!



Just enough swirl to moisten the skins on top. If it helps, you can remove the airlock and put a rubber stopper in while swirling so that you don't make a mess. At this point there is a good CO2 blanket in there anyway so your safe from oxidation.

I also did this is a 7.9Gal bucket, and was able to do a sort of back-and-forth motion to create some constructive interference waves at the surface that would do what I needed (can you tell I'm an engineer? haha). I never had an issue with getting wine in the airlock using this method, since the "wave nodes" would be away from the airlock.


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## Dom Lausic (Feb 11, 2019)

LOL! Great, I'll try the back and forth motion. Will also look into a rubber stopper as well. Thx!


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## BigSell (Feb 24, 2019)

I was wondering if anyone gets any off flavor from the Lees during EM? I have always read that yeast can start producing off flavors if left too long after all the sugars are fermented.

Thoughts


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## jgmann67 (Feb 24, 2019)

BigSell said:


> I was wondering if anyone gets any off flavor from the Lees during EM? I have always read that yeast can start producing off flavors if left too long after all the sugars are fermented.
> 
> Thoughts



The million dollar question: how long is too long? I’m going to cut mine back to 5-6 weeks to see if it makes any difference.


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## Brian55 (Feb 24, 2019)

BigSell said:


> I was wondering if anyone gets any off flavor from the Lees during EM? I have always read that yeast can start producing off flavors if left too long after all the sugars are fermented.
> 
> Thoughts


I usually shoot for about 4 weeks, give or take a few days. Haven't noticed any off flavors.


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## Dom Lausic (Feb 24, 2019)

Very interesting question..... In the beer world (one is which I've got a little more experience in), some brewers are weary of keeping beer in primary for more than 7-10 days. Myself personally, I've had many successful batches of beer in primary for 2-3 weeks. This actually gives the beer yeast some time to clean up some of the off-flavours. I can say with a high degree of confidence that 2-3 weeks is no cause for worry. But that is personal opinion......

There are many here though, who perform EM for 6+ weeks, and have had fantastic results. I'm just finishing off a 3 week extended maceration on a wine kit (which caused some stress!), and racked today. And everything seemed ok!


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 25, 2019)

I'm coming up on 6 weeks for my first EM. IIRC, Vandergrift went 8 or 9.


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## tradowsk (Feb 25, 2019)

Didn't notice any off flavors from my 6 week Lodi Cab EM with BM4x4.

I would think this question really depends on the yeast selection, as some yeast strains are more prone to off-flavors than others.

I also used bentonite in primary, which potentially could keep the dead yeast cells more tightly packed together and thus less likely to break down. IDK if that's a real thing, but it seems logical


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## dyqik (Mar 2, 2019)

Also coming from the beer world, I know some people suggest that HDPE plastic buckets allow too much oxygen through the walls for extended aging of sour beers. But that's usually 6 months plus.

I think you'd be fine for 6-8 weeks EM, but I'd be wary of going much longer, and beer is often much more sensitive to oxygen anyway. Fermonsters, Speidels etc. are much less porous to oxygen though.


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## Gabert Grape (Mar 3, 2019)

I did a 2 week EM on a Syrah made from grapes. I too did not want to leave it longer in case the pomace would add off flavors. Does anyone have experience with EM for all grape wine? is there a different process than just leaving it. Do the skins, seeds, lees, and pomace add off flavors when left longer than 2 weeks? The Syrah with a 2 week EM had no off flavors, leaving pomace and all. I do know the French have a process that removes the lees, pomace and seeds, and replaces the skins for EM. Has anyone tried this? Is oxidation an issue? Sorry for sounding like a newbie, I've now only had 2 successful vintages of all grape wine (before was kits and juice), and would like to take it up a notch.


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## stickman (Mar 3, 2019)

@Gabert Grape you can check out this thread for EM with grapes.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/extended-maceraction.58057/


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## Gabert Grape (Mar 3, 2019)

Thanks for the info, I've read this thread already and it does not cover the subject thoroughly. Any other threads would be helpful.


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## Joe B. (Mar 4, 2019)

I did a post fermentation 21 day EM on Grenache grapes and lost a lot of fruit but gained mouth feel and it is a overly astringent wine right now. I don't know if I should have went it longer or if Grenache is just not made out for EM. I kept it under a gas blanket, covered and punched down once a day until the cap dropped. Next year still wondering if I should go longer or just give up on EM. Which I could provide some guidance for you but just have a lot of questions at this time.


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## SethF (Mar 4, 2019)

What about cold maceration, either instead or in addition?

EM makes me nervous. I have had issues with wine left on the gross lees when I first started.

Last year I did a CM for 7 days prior to PF/AF and that seems to have worked very well.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 4, 2019)

Joe B. said:


> I did a post fermentation 21 day EM on Grenache grapes and lost a lot of fruit but gained mouth feel and it is a overly astringent wine right now. I don't know if I should have went it longer or if Grenache is just not made out for EM. I kept it under a gas blanket, covered and punched down once a day until the cap dropped. Next year still wondering if I should go longer or just give up on EM. Which I could provide some guidance for you but just have a lot of questions at this time.



Astringency is a sign of having a lot of tannins. EM is _designed_ to encourage the extraction of compounds from the grapeskins, including tannins. 

I think Seth is suggesting cold maceration before fermentation because it is reputed to extract colors and flavors, but, without alcohol present as a solvent, is reputed not to extract as much tannins. So, no, I don't think conducting EM for longer would have helped.


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## WellingtonToad (Mar 4, 2019)

SethF said:


> What about cold maceration, either instead or in addition?
> 
> EM makes me nervous. I have had issues with wine left on the gross lees when I first started.
> 
> Last year I did a CM for 7 days prior to PF/AF and that seems to have worked very well.


The talk I hear is you either macerate before or after, not both. Basically, it comes down to the type of grape being fermented. Pinky noir before, shiraz/syrah after.


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## SethF (Mar 4, 2019)

I don't think it's an either or, but agree that it is definitely a choice relating to the type of varietal.


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## Joe B. (Mar 4, 2019)

Thanks for your input I'll be going in another direction next year. Possibly enzymes and cold soak.


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## tradowsk (Mar 5, 2019)

I found this article to be pretty enlightening on the differences and effects of cold soaking vs. extended maceration: https://winefolly.com/review/winemakers-red-wine-secret-extended-maceration/


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## MHSKIBUM (Jun 1, 2021)

I just bought a Speidel plastic fermenter to try EM. Question: do I have to worry about headspace if I go 6-8 weeks (after stabilizing)?


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