# Are these vines OK?



## Ct Winemaker (May 29, 2019)

Hello Folks,

We planted our vineyard about 12 days ago, 39 Chardonel, 39 St. Vincent, 39 Marquette. Since we are absolutely new at this, we have some questions we could use some help with;

The picture of the self rooted vine is a St. Vincent:

Did we leave too much when we trimmed the bare root vines prior to planting? We trimmed based on the information from Double A web site (supplier of vines), but we're afraid we may have left too much.

If too much is left on, should we consider pruning / pulling more of the buds / shoots or would you let it go for now?​
The picture of the grafted plant is a Chardonel:

Are the buds coming from the graft "knot" OK or are they the root stock?

If they are from the root stock, would you remove them?​How soon would you spray with fungicide? Now?

Thank you very much for any help you can offer.


----------



## salcoco (May 29, 2019)

normally new grapes are pruned back to two buds. the purpose is to assure that root growth is a priority not top growth. I would prune back to two buds. on the graft the buds are above the graft so they should be of the Chardonal. I would rub off all but two to comply with the two bud growth idea.


----------



## Ct Winemaker (May 29, 2019)

Would you suggest just pruning / pinching off everything except the two top shoots or literally cutting back the main trunks to 2 buds? Would you leave the two main “trunks”?


----------



## Masbustelo (May 29, 2019)

I would probably prune off the trunk on the right. I would leave the strongest bud on the other two and remove the others. Then as the vines grow up, tie them to the support with surveyors tape, or green gardening tape. Others may have different suggestions. I would mulch the vines with wood chips as well. I would suggest spraying with Mancozeb/Dithane, together with perhaps sulfur if it is compatible with your varieties, with a spreader sticker. You could cut the stub off also instead of the one on the right. If possible pull the trunk on the right to your stake with the tie.


----------



## Ct Winemaker (May 30, 2019)

Thank you both very much for your help!

Is it OK to go ahead and do the suggested pruning / bud removal at this point in growth ( can I do it now without harm to the vines)?


----------



## salcoco (May 30, 2019)

pruning is find now. I wold not use wood chips for any cover mulch. there degradation will remove nitrogen from the soil which is required for the grapes. I would keep the area under the trellis free of all weeds. I would also get some grow tubes to place around the plants to protect from weather and herbicide spray.


----------



## Masbustelo (May 30, 2019)

Studies have shown that surface wood chips do not affect root zone nitrogen. https://permies.com/t/58634/urban-m...g/fresh-wood-chips-for-mulch-harmful-or-good/, https://www.gardenmyths.com/mulch-how-does-it-affect-soil/


----------



## salcoco (May 30, 2019)

just make sure they are not from a black walnut tree. enzymes in bark will kill anything but grass. I would not use any thing but keep ground bare under the vines.


----------



## Ct Winemaker (May 30, 2019)

Thanks again Salcoco and Masbustelo. I am using grow tubes (see pic below), and didn't plan to mulch (will keep weeds and any other growth down/ dead) and will eventually mow between rows (rows are 8 ft spacing). I plan to go vine to vine, this afternoon and remove some buds / shoots based on your suggestions and suggestions from Double A.

Thanks again


----------



## bumblebeetuna (May 30, 2019)

I am against trimming the root systems, all the energy and nutrients stored in the roots for the following spring are lopped off. The first group of vines I put in I followed those instructions and those vines suffered there first few years. Hopefully yours do not.


----------



## Ct Winemaker (May 30, 2019)

Hello Bumblebeetuna,

We didn’t prune the roots at all, made big wide deep holes and planted everything the vines had. We pruned back the top growth in an effort to allow the vines to put their energy into developing a more robust root system than they already had. My questions were relative to how much top growth to prune / save. 

All done now, pruning complete, grow tubes back in place so now it’s up to the; vines, the wine gods, weather, and a lot of fungicide spray!


----------



## balatonwine (May 31, 2019)

Masbustelo said:


> Studies have shown that surface wood chips do not affect root zone nitrogen.



True. But grape vines are not trees or garden vegetables. Mulching vines have some disadvantages that also need to be considered. Especially when applying external mulch (which differs from in place mulching seen when using a French plow or blades in the vine row). Just some examples to consider:

- Mulch increases sub surface soil moisture which can result in the vine running out shallow roots. This can be disadvantageous to the vine during drought periods, especially for those that do not irrigate. Best then to "force" a vine to sink deeper roots if possible.

- Mulch near the vine can cause stem rot. Mulch must be monitored and correctly applied. And the mulch environment can provide a home for fungus spores that can attack the vine later. Keeping area under a vine spartan can reduce fungus problems.

- Bare soil under vines, depending on the soil type, can reflect light during the day, or release stored heat absorbed during the day. Both of these can improve vine growth, grape development and vine health. Mulch will remove these benefits.

stc.


----------



## balatonwine (May 31, 2019)

bumblebeetuna said:


> I am against trimming the root systems, all the energy and nutrients stored in the roots for the following spring are lopped off. The first group of vines I put in I followed those instructions and those vines suffered there first few years. Hopefully yours do not.



Root trimming, when done right, stimulates root growth, even at the expense of vegetative growth the first year. You should not judge a vines health too early by how much above soil growth you see the first year (or two). In fact, by not pruning roots, you see a lot of that stored energy go into the above ground growth the first year, but that first year growth can actually weaken the entire plant in the long term because far less energy is put into building a good life long root system. The pruning of roots is a strategic issue for proper* long term* vine vigor and health.


----------



## balatonwine (May 31, 2019)

Ct Winemaker said:


> Are the buds coming from the graft "knot"



They seem to me to be above the graft. In fact, it is very rare to see growth from root stock in the graft area (it is basically scar tissue). Normally roots stock buds comes from the stalk below the graft when it occurs (which is not too common -- but can happen).

But, I would still rub off all but the highest two buds.


----------



## balatonwine (May 31, 2019)

Ct Winemaker said:


> How soon would you spray with fungicide? Now?



Normally, aside from basics, like spraying before the bloom, your ideal spray schedule is dictated by where you are,what you grow, and what you spray. Contact your local University Agricultural extension for advice. You can often also find their info online.


----------



## Dennis Griffith (May 31, 2019)

Looks like a nice setup. Good luck with your venture!


----------



## BigH (May 31, 2019)

bumblebeetuna said:


> I am against trimming the root systems.



For people that find this thread years later: It is important to avoid J-rooting the vines. There is a lot of debate about the pros and cons of trimming roots during planting. If you decide that you don't want to trim roots, then you have to commit to digging a hole large enough to avoid J rooting.

I personally don't hesitate to trim roots, but i have only put 86 vines in the ground. 

H


----------



## BigH (May 31, 2019)

Ct Winemaker said:


> Thanks again Salcoco and Masbustelo. I am using grow tubes (see pic below)



Ct, what is your game plan for the end posts? Are those complete, or do you have more anchoring to add?

H


----------



## Ct Winemaker (Jun 1, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> Looks like a nice setup. Good luck with your venture!


Thank you


----------



## Ct Winemaker (Jun 1, 2019)

BigH said:


> Ct, what is your game plan for the end posts? Are those complete, or do you have more anchoring to add?
> 
> H


Not completely sure yet on the end posts. They are extremely solid, 2 ft into the ground. When back filling, we packed layers of stone and premix concrete (1 bag per post). Plan is to watch them and if there is any sign of leaning in, anchor (outside) and cables with tensioning to “pull back”. The rows are about 80 ft with 2 steel “t” posts in between the end posts, and the end posts are a full 8 inch diameter. All seems really robust, but we will see. I’m hoping I can avoid the “angled” cables and anchors simply because they will be “trip points”, but if needed I have space to add them.


----------



## Dennis Griffith (Jun 1, 2019)

Here is how I do it, just for comparison. I only use 4x4. but make sure the angles holes have concrete in the bottom so that the timber can have some footing to press against. I run rows up to about 120' with 3 T posts over the length.


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 2, 2019)

BigH said:


> If you decide that you don't want to trim roots, then you have to commit to digging a hole large enough to avoid J rooting.
> I personally don't hesitate to trim roots, but i have only put 86 vines in the ground.



Aside from any root trimming "controversy"*, trimming roots takes far, far much less time than digging a much larger hole, then filling it in. My grafted grapes came in bundles of 50 (I have planted vines numbering in the four figure range). I just took a lopping shear trimmer to them. As a bundle. I ain't subtle. They did fine. Just saying. Grape vines are very sturdy. Don't helicopter parent them. 

*To me there is no controversy, only people who understand biology and those that do not....


----------



## treesaver (Jun 5, 2019)

You will likely need more than you have at present. I'm a welder, so I built my trellis out of pipe, and set it four feet in the ground with four bags of sackcrete per end post and brace. I have one that is pulling the end post up out of the ground. Thought my deal was bullit pruff....guess not!


----------

