# Making the most of expensive kits



## Lwrightjs (May 9, 2019)

How do you make the most of your expensive kits? I've just purchased an RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan. Most expensive kit I've ever done. Normally, I add currants, tannin, extra oak, and swap the yeast on cheap ($60) kits. But how should I do this one? I've been pretty nervous about it and put off starting it last weekend because I don't want to ruin an expensive kit.

What do you to make these into great wines?


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## Boatboy24 (May 9, 2019)

Pretty much exactly what you mentioned, although I've only done the currant addition once or twice.


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## Lwrightjs (May 9, 2019)

I've been reading a lot about extended maceration. Is that something I want to try here?


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## jsbeckton (May 9, 2019)

I just bottled this kit in February after a year of bulk aging. I did a 6W EM and made the same adjustments that you noted.

It’s still young but I think it’s going to turn out very nicely.

I only do high end kits and my advice to you is to not plan on drinking it for 2-3 years if you want to “make the most of it”.

After I bottled it I stuck mine in the back of my cellar. Almost forgot about it until I read this thread [emoji6]


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## Lwrightjs (May 9, 2019)

Awesome. I was thinking 6 to 9 weeks of EM, and then another 6 to 9 months of bulk aging. I like bulk aging but it's hard when you want to put more stuff in your carboys.
I've got like 100 bottles worth of wine that I made from tweaked kits. I hope I can get a year out of it.


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## jsbeckton (May 10, 2019)

They key is to make more than you can drink early on. I think most people make several cheap kits that are early drinkers before making the expensive kits. This makes it easier to keep your hands off them for awhile.


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## pillswoj (May 10, 2019)

Definitely do an EM on it, I would skip the currants, add all the oak in the kit in the primary, use some tannin. BM4x4 is a nice yeast for it. Get an oak spiral for aging, maybe a French Medium plus. Bottle anytime 9-12 months (I usually bottle after I go for a 3 month aging cycle with zero sediment this is often the 6-9 month cycle but can be longer).
DO NOT sample a bottle until it is OVER 24 months old.


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## ras2018 (May 10, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> Awesome. I was thinking 6 to 9 weeks of EM



9 weeks of EM seems a bit excessive and might lead to oxygen exposure. Just my 2c worth.


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## pillswoj (May 10, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> 9 weeks of EM seems a bit excessive and might lead to oxygen exposure. Just my 2c worth.



If someone is doing an EM, I would recommend using a fermonster or a big mouth bubbler. Lock it down after 1 week and slosh it to keep the skins wet. No issues of Oxygen exposure that way


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## Lwrightjs (May 11, 2019)

pillswoj said:


> If someone is doing an EM, I would recommend using a fermonster or a big mouth bubbler. Lock it down after 1 week and slosh it to keep the skins wet. No issues of Oxygen exposure that way



What do you mean by lock it down?

Ive been thinking about doing it in a 7.8 gallon bucket and then spraying argon Gas in it around 2 or 3 weeks.

Also, I have the 7. 5 gal fermonster. Does that work fine?


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## pillswoj (May 11, 2019)

I do all mine in the 7.5 fermonsters,. For the first week I have the top on very loosely and punch the cap down twice a day. After the week, I tighten the lid and just rock the fermonster back and forth to keep the skins wet. I have settled on 8 weeks for my EMs.


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## pillswoj (May 11, 2019)

Also the skins will sink at the 3 or 4 week mark.


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## Lwrightjs (May 11, 2019)

Excellent news. I was afraid I'd have to buy a new piece of equipment for it.

Do you have a solid lid then? I have a bung with an airlock right now but can pick up a solid bung easily.


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## jgmann67 (May 11, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> Excellent news. I was afraid I'd have to buy a new piece of equipment for it.
> 
> Do you have a solid lid then? I have a bung with an airlock right now but can pick up a solid bung easily.



Airlock. It’s fine.


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## Lwrightjs (May 11, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Pretty much exactly what you mentioned, although I've only done the currant addition once or twice.


I meant to ask about this. How was the currant tweak? Would you recommend, or have you noticed a difference? I've done it on cheaper kits to add a little extra.


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## Boatboy24 (May 12, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> I meant to ask about this. How was the currant tweak? Would you recommend, or have you noticed a difference? I've done it on cheaper kits to add a little extra.



I'm not sure if it made a real difference or not.


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## robert81650 (May 12, 2019)

I'm not sure why you would want to tweak a high price kit. By spending that kind of money, I would not want to mess with what the experts at the kit manufacture have done to get it ready to make a good wine.


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## Brian55 (May 12, 2019)

robert81650 said:


> I'm not sure why you would want to tweak a high price kit. By spending that kind of money, I would not want to mess with what the experts at the kit manufacture have done to get it ready to make a good wine.


All you're getting vs. a cheaper kit is more juice, less concentrate, and maybe skins with a red. Most are still lacking in tannins, oak, etc.. Plus the directions are intended to hurry the process so they can sell more kits.


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## Lwrightjs (May 12, 2019)

robert81650 said:


> I'm not sure why you would want to tweak a high price kit. By spending that kind of money, I would not want to mess with what the experts at the kit manufacture have done to get it ready to make a good wine.



Yeah, I'm not necessarily looking to tweak it majorly, but to make the most of it. 

Do you believe the high priced kits are great how they are? What do you normally do?


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## jsbeckton (May 13, 2019)

The high priced kits are still designed to be consumed quickly so I find they are light on oak. They also give you the ‘vanilla’ yeast EC112 because the manufacturer feels it’s better to ensure complete fermentation for a novice winemaker rather than chance it to add more complexity.

So if you make it by the book with the kit instructions I think your will get a good wine but IMO you are not “making the most of it”.


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## jgmann67 (May 13, 2019)

The usual tweaks for me: Yeast swap, adding oak, tannin on the front and/or back end, and an EM. As with any dry wine, skip the sorbate. I like to skip the clarifiers and let it age in bulk for 6-12 months.


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## Lwrightjs (May 13, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> The usual tweaks for me: Yeast swap, adding oak, tannin on the front and/or back end, and an EM. As with any dry wine, skip the sorbate. I like to skip the clarifiers and let it age in bulk for 6-12 months.


I've seen a lot of people skipping clarifiers. Do you notice a tangible difference in taste or is there another reason for it?


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## pillswoj (May 13, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> I've seen a lot of people skipping clarifiers. Do you notice a tangible difference in taste or is there another reason for it?


There is a thought that the clarifiers strip some of the body / color from the wine. I don't know if it is noticeable but if bulk aging for 12 month they are not needed.


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## jsbeckton (May 13, 2019)

Same with degassing. No need if bulk aging 12 months. Again, the kit instructions are written for early consumption so it you add the “time” ingredient many of the steps are unnecessary.


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## robert81650 (May 13, 2019)

Tell me why you could not use the EC1112 along with a good one like RC 212 together in the expensive kits. That way you would be assured of complete fermentation and the good effects of the other yeast.


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## jsbeckton (May 13, 2019)

robert81650 said:


> Tell me why you could not use the EC1112 along with a good one like RC 212 together in the expensive kits. That way you would be assured of complete fermentation and the good effects of the other yeast.



Some kits actually come with multiple types of yeasts with instructions to add both so while I can’t confirm there may be something to that. However I’ve only seen it in one kit and I can’t remember which one so it’s not typical.


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## sour_grapes (May 13, 2019)

robert81650 said:


> Tell me why you could not use the EC1112 along with a good one like RC 212 together in the expensive kits. That way you would be assured of complete fermentation and the good effects of the other yeast.



Sometimes you can and sometimes you cannot. You picked a perfect example of an incompatible pair. Some yeasts exude a "killer factor" that knocks off other yeasts. Some yeasts are sensitive to this, and some are not. (And some yeasts neither exude this factor, nor are they susceptible to it.) EC-1118 is a killer yeast, and RC-212 is sensitive to it. https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Quick-Yeast-References-Chart_2018_LR.pdf

Now, you could, I suppose, start with RC-212, and then later introduce the EC-1118.

By the way, BM4x4 is a proprietary blend of yeasts of the sort you were thinking of.


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## Johnd (May 13, 2019)

Healthy discussions for sure, the only two things to consider adding in, would be pressed skins from a previous batch (if you have access to any) and barrel aging, which I believe to be a vital component if you really want to try to give a wine every single opportunity to be the "best it can be".


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## Lwrightjs (May 13, 2019)

robert81650 said:


> Tell me why you could not use the EC1112 along with a good one like RC 212 together in the expensive kits. That way you would be assured of complete fermentation and the good effects of the other yeast.


On some of my other kits, I've started with a more suitable yeast and when it looked like fermentation might have stopped at the wrong SG, I added 1118.


Johnd,
Is there anything I can add in place of pressed skins? This is my first premium kit so it will be my first set of skins.


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## Johnd (May 13, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> Johnd,
> Is there anything I can add in place of pressed skins? This is my first premium kit so it will be my first set of skins.



Some of the things you are doing already have you trekking down that path, adding tannins or oak in primary will replace some of the tannins that are extracted during AF.

As far as anything to add in place of grape skins, you'll get some with the kit, guess you could always buy more of the skin packs, but nothing really takes the place of fermenting with the real skins / pulp / seeds of real grapes, guess if anything did, there'd be no need to use whole grapes. You've got a premium kit, it'll make pretty darn good wine, and with the few adjustments you have from here, it'll be better. You should be pretty satisfied with the results.

I'm assuming you're early in the winemaking addiction since this is your first premium kit, and it's good that you wan to make great wine, we all do. When you're ready, go to wine from grapes, you can make better wine if you can get good grapes and don't make any major mistakes. It's also a lot easier to jack up a batch and have nothing to show for it, so learn the process and read a lot.

From great grapes you can make great wine, mediocre wine, or terrible wine. From mediocre grapes you can make mediocre wine or terrible wine. Don't buy terrible grapes.

Kits are cool, they take all of the grape finding / sugar and acid adjusting challenges out of the equation, and you can make nice stuff that'll amaze and astound your family and friends (unless they're wine snobs) with relative ease, and it's repeatable, have fun!


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## Lwrightjs (May 13, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I'm assuming you're early in the winemaking addiction since this is your first premium kit, and it's good that you wan to make great wine, we all do. When you're ready, go to wine from grapes, you can make better wine if you can get good grapes and don't make any major mistakes. It's also a lot easier to jack up a batch and have nothing to show for it, so learn the process and read a lot.
> 
> From great grapes you can make great wine, mediocre wine, or terrible wine. From mediocre grapes you can make mediocre wine or terrible wine. Don't buy terrible grapes.
> 
> Kits are cool, they take all of the grape finding / sugar and acid adjusting challenges out of the equation, and you can make nice stuff that'll amaze and astound your family and friends (unless they're wine snobs) with relative ease, and it's repeatable, have fun!



Yeah I got started from a kit I got for Christmas and I love it. 

Honestly, I want to move into frozen must or purchasing whole grapes within the next couple years but I'm afraid that the learning curve is too high for the cost, especially right now. Will kits and tweaking them help me go to that next level? 

I like kits because the cheap ones have been predictable and pretty damn good so far. But I already know there's so much more.


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## Johnd (May 14, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> Yeah I got started from a kit I got for Christmas and I love it.
> 
> Honestly, I want to move into frozen must or purchasing whole grapes within the next couple years but I'm afraid that the learning curve is too high for the cost, especially right now. Will kits and tweaking them help me go to that next level?
> 
> I like kits because the cheap ones have been predictable and pretty damn good so far. But I already know there's so much more.



Sure, the premiums are better kits over time, and doing kits will move both your knowledge and confidence up the curve. You could do frozen buckets pretty easily with little to no additional expense, other than the raw materials. 

Frozen must is already crushed and destemmed, and bought from the right supplier, you can get the pH, TA, and YAN from them, selecting a good must with balance and making no adjustments. Press using the “butt bucket method” and you’re in pretty good shape. My first foray was similar. Once you’re firmly addicted, you can get all the toys.


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## Lwrightjs (May 14, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Sure, the premiums are better kits over time, and doing kits will move both your knowledge and confidence up the curve. You could do frozen buckets pretty easily with little to no additional expense, other than the raw materials.
> 
> Frozen must is already crushed and destemmed, and bought from the right supplier, you can get the pH, TA, and YAN from them, selecting a good must with balance and making no adjustments. Press using the “butt bucket method” and you’re in pretty good shape. My first foray was similar. Once you’re firmly addicted, you can get all the toys.



I have two questions.. Butt bucket? Like the the one my neighbors used to use to make moonshine in (toilet)? 

How addicted is firmly addicted? I've got 4 carboys. Is 10 the magic number?


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## Brian55 (May 14, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> How addicted is firmly addicted? I've got 4 carboys. Is 10 the magic number?



At least 12, so you can bulk age at least a year, and bottle one per month.


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## Johnd (May 14, 2019)

Butt bucket press = one bucket with spigot + another with holes drilled in the bottom and sides nested inside + another plain bucket nested inside the second. Grape skins for pressing go into the holy bucket, plain bucket on top of the skins, sit your butt on the top bucket. Wine forced through the holes into the bottom bucket, out the spigot and into your catching container. 

When you’re firmly addicted, you’ll know.


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## Lwrightjs (May 14, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> At least 12, so you can bulk age at least a year, and bottle one per month.


That means I have to buy one a month until the end of the year... Challenge accepted.


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## cmason1957 (May 14, 2019)

12 just means you need 14 more so you can bottle every other week.


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## jgmann67 (May 15, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Butt bucket press = one bucket with spigot + another with holes drilled in the bottom and sides nested inside + another plain bucket nested inside the second. Grape skins for pressing go into the holy bucket, plain bucket on top of the skins, sit your butt on the top bucket. Wine forced through the holes into the bottom bucket, out the spigot and into your catching container.
> 
> When you’re firmly addicted, you’ll know.



My Butt Press


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## Johnd (May 15, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> My Butt Press
> 
> View attachment 54631
> View attachment 54632
> ...



Excellent, action photos!!!!!!


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## jgmann67 (May 16, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Excellent, action photos!!!!!!



I figured I needed at least one pic to illustrate why it’s called a butt press. [emoji1303]


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## baron4406 (May 21, 2019)

To be 100% honest that butt press looks easier and more effective than my regular press lol


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## jgmann67 (May 21, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> To be 100% honest that butt press looks easier and more effective than my regular press lol



It cleans up easy afterwards, too! I think you lose a bit of juice, but not a lot.


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