# Raspberry wine question



## acorn (Oct 7, 2014)

Hello, this is my first post here, but I have been following these forums for a couple of months now. 

I have recently made a 3 gal. batch of raspberry wine from frozen raspberries (I bought them fresh and froze myself). It has been 5 weeks since the end of the primary fermentation and I racked the wine twice already. The wine has fermented to dryness from OG=1.093 to FG=0.990 and doesn't seem to have gone through any MLF (I didn't add the culture, anyway). The appearance and color of the wine don't seem to indicate any problems with it, however, my issue is that it tastes too acidic (pH=approx. 3.2-3.3) and astringent to the point it is made just barely palatable. At the same time, I don't smell any vinegar or other bad odors. 

As the wine is still in the carboy, degassed and treated with sparkolloid, I am thinking to stabilize and back sweeten at the end, but I am not sure whether sweetening alone would be enough to balance the astringency. Would the addition of glycerin help to soften the wine a bit?

I know I could also add K-bicarbonate and cold stabilize to reduce the acidity, but, unfortunately it is not an option for me at the time as I don't have a dedicated refrigerator.

I would appreciate any advice on how to "rescue" or improve the batch from its current state. Thanks a lot!


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## dralarms (Oct 7, 2014)

If it's at .990, I'd add sugar to get it to 1.000 at least. Fruit wines are semi sweet for the most part.


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## acorn (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks, I guess this is what I'll do in the end. I am not too familiar with back sweetening, but from what I've heard, wouldn't I risk renewed fermentation at some later point, if I use regular table sugar? In your practice, did you have any positive experience with wine conditioners or other sweetening agents that you can speak to?


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## sour_grapes (Oct 7, 2014)

acorn said:


> I am not too familiar with back sweetening, but from what I've heard, wouldn't I risk renewed fermentation at some later point, if I use regular table sugar?



If you let these age for quite a while, so that you get most of the yeast out by racking, and then use potassium sorbate before/with your backsweetening, you won't experience refermentation.


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## BernardSmith (Oct 8, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> If you let these age for quite a while, so that you get most of the yeast out by racking, and then use potassium sorbate before/with your backsweetening, you won't experience refermentation.



Technically, I think you really need to add both K-meta and K-sorbate to inhibit refermentation. I say that only because that is what the literature suggests and I have myself not ever tested the effectiveness of adding only K-sorbate.


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## acorn (Oct 8, 2014)

BernardSmith said:


> Technically, I think you really need to add both K-meta and K-sorbate to inhibit refermentation. I say that only because that is what the literature suggests and I have myself not ever tested the effectiveness of adding only K-sorbate.



I generally agree with this approach, unless you already added enough, and adding more along with K-sorbate would make SO2 noticeable. So in my case I will add both together just to make sure that there is no wild MLF or refermentation happening when I bottle after back sweetening. I am also considering adding fresh raspberry juice to bring up the fruity aroma, so I suppose, adding both K-sorbate and K-meta in combination is more appropriate. 

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback so far! If you have any more quick tips in regard to reducing the acidity I am still interested in hearing about it.


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## WineYooper (Oct 8, 2014)

Give it some time, relax the taste will come around with ageing. It may take 1-2 years for some to really develop great taste. I have never racked my wine twice in five weeks. Usually the first time is maybe two weeks depending on how much settles out then maybe a month depending again on lees, and most of my fruit wine I age for 11-12 months. It's hard to fight the urge to taste it, but now is the time for patience, search this sight and you will gain tons of knowledge. I usually make a simple syrup and back sweeten to about 1.01, to me somewhat of a neutral between dry & sweet.


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## peaches9324 (Oct 8, 2014)

yes what WineYooper said. My suggestion to you is leave it sit in a cool dark place forget about it for 3 mos then maybe rack if needed and it probably will. Take a lil taste before you add a dose of kmeta. Right now what you need to do to take your mind off of that is start something new. I know this is not what you want to hear but it will take over a year to quit dropping sediment slow down and enjoy the ride


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## acorn (Oct 8, 2014)

WineYooper said:


> Give it some time, relax the taste will come around with ageing. It may take 1-2 years for some to really develop great taste.





peaches9324 said:


> yes what WineYooper said. My suggestion to you is leave it sit in a cool dark place forget about it for 3 mos then maybe rack if needed and it probably will. Take a lil taste before you add a dose of kmeta. Right now what you need to do to take your mind off of that is start something new. I know this is not what you want to hear but it will take over a year to quit dropping sediment slow down and enjoy the ride



Oh, I am definitely prepared to wait. It is just the first time my wine gets as acidic as this (even more so than in cranberry wine I made last year, which is quite surprising), so I was wondering whether ageing by itself would solve the problem, or should I use something in addition. I have to admit I panicked a bit. But again, if ageing it is, then aged it will be. Thank you.


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## jensmith (Oct 10, 2014)

A little Rasberry goes a long way! Its one of those fruits that more is not better in wine making. Too many per galleon gives you a bitter wine. Verry full in flavor, but with a bite! Take a glass and add a splash of water. Let it sit a few minutes and try it. The bite should be less now. If you like it better that way you can either dilute it now or by the glass as you drink it. Diluting it with a mild wine will work as well. 
I sweeten almost none of my wines. When I do I use the frozen fruit juice concentrates. One or two cans is the most I have ever used. Usually after it is clear and the abv is too high for the yeat to restart. Tried the sorbate and sulfa method, it refermented on me. Luckily for me, sweet is anything above .995! So it just lightly carbonated. 



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## richmke (Oct 10, 2014)

I made a batch of Raspberry wine. A local store had a can on clearance, so I thought "why not?". I back sweetened, and it is bitter.

What would be good mild wines to mix it with?

Any thoughts on how it would be as a Sangria? I should try mixing it with some SP or DB that I have.


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## jensmith (Oct 10, 2014)

SP or DB would not mellow it much, unless you had yours very sweet. They can be a little high in acid. That said, do bench trials with whatever you have on hand. Use whatever taste good to you. You can just try sweetening it up even more. I can't do sweet so I will be little help in that department!
Any wine that does not bite you back should work. I just tried some store bought chaitai (sp?) wine. Mellowed it nicely. I have used a store bought merlo with good results, and any of my wines work as well. Even the cranberry! Rasberry just goes with everything. Just remember it is best in small doses. That flavor comes threw most times. Too much and the ascid bite domenates. ( I like that most days!).
If your kit had you add extra acid blend try not adding it next time. Rasberry does not often need the extra acid. 


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## acorn (Oct 11, 2014)

jensmith said:


> A little Rasberry goes a long way! Its one of those fruits that more is not better in wine making. Too many per galleon gives you a bitter wine. Verry full in flavor, but with a bite! Take a glass and add a splash of water. Let it sit a few minutes and try it. The bite should be less now.



Hmm, thanks for the interesting remark. I used 10 lbs of thawed raspberries for the 3 gallon batch. The pure juice made it about 2/3 of one gallon, with the rest being diluted with water. I looked up recipes in my books as well as online and some said I should use 3 lbs/gal, while others mentioned 4 lbs. So I followed less-is-better approach. Based on what you say, it might have been worse, had I made it 4 lbs/gallon. Also, I macerated the wine for half of the time the wine spent in the primary, so maybe I shouldn't have gone that way, and just let the liquid stay as is.

Anyway, I will let it sit in the carboy for at least 6 months or so, and then I'll decide what to do. In fact, since I have some headspace in the carboy after racking, I will probably fill it up with some water, so it would decrease the acidity a bit and leave less room for any air that may leak in.


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## jensmith (Oct 11, 2014)

15# for a five gallon batch comes out very strong. I then make a seconds wine with the used fruit and sludge. That comes out a nice light wine. Blended they are perfect. I used 20# the first time! That got diluted with a very light seconds wine!
Next time I am gonna only use 2# per galleon. 
Those bascic fruit recipies all call for 3-4# per galleon. I think numbers are picked by random...

I quart added to a light cranberry 3 gal batch add detectable flavors. One pound per galleon added to rubarb wine came out fantasctic! 
So if aging does not mellow it enough for you, use it as flavoring other wines. Aging fixes many flaws!

Sometimes a little tannin will smooth over that acid bite. Pull off a bottle or small juice jar and add some grape tannin. Let it sit a week and retaste. I find number 6 or 8 fitts most juice jars. Great for sampeling or odd bits!




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## acorn (Oct 11, 2014)

jensmith said:


> Sometimes a little tannin will smooth over that acid bite. Pull off a bottle or small juice jar and add some grape tannin. Let it sit a week and retaste. I find number 6 or 8 fitts most juice jars. Great for sampeling or odd bits!



Thanks for the tip. I have a bottle of tannin powder that came with instructions: 1/4 tsp per gallon for white and rose wines, and 1/3 tsp per gallon for reds. Is that what you would typically add? I think it may be wiser to go with 1/4 tsp per gallon first, so I don't overdo it.


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## jensmith (Oct 12, 2014)

That sounds about right. However you can always add more later, but you can't take it out. So I would add half that to start with. I use the full amount at the start of fermtaion. Less when I add it after. 
Different tannins have different amounts. I only have used a few differnt typs. 
Rember to let it sit a week, or at least overnight before adding more tannin. It can take a bit to fully intergrate into the wine. 


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## UBB (Oct 14, 2014)

jensmith said:


> A little Rasberry goes a long way! Its one of those fruits that more is not better in wine making. Too many per galleon gives you a bitter wine. Verry full in flavor, but with a bite! Take a glass and add a splash of water. Let it sit a few minutes and try it. The bite should be less now. If you like it better that way you can either dilute it now or by the glass as you drink it. Diluting it with a mild wine will work as well.
> I sweeten almost none of my wines. When I do I use the frozen fruit juice concentrates. One or two cans is the most I have ever used. Usually after it is clear and the abv is too high for the yeat to restart. * Tried the sorbate and sulfa method, it refermented on me. *Luckily for me, sweet is anything above .995! So it just lightly carbonated.
> 
> 
> ...



Then I would say you had old/bad sorbate


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## jensmith (Oct 14, 2014)

It worked just fine the next time I used it. Laws of science and logic do not apply to my house some days..... And Murfey works overtime!
Luckily for me I like dry wine


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## acorn (Nov 11, 2014)

So, the wine is still sitting in the carboy with no apparent changes, so I let it age a bit to mellow that acidity. Anyway, I was thinking of backsweetening it at the end of the year, not with water syrup, though, but rather with sweetened juice that I will press from frozen raspberries (I aim to end up with about 1 L of clear juice to be added). 

Here is my question: what should I do to the juice before I sweeten it and add to the batch of wine? I am specifically interested in finding out whether or not it requires any of the following:


Adding pectin enzyme (because it was added to the wine)
Fining with bentonite or sparkolloid, etc....
Adding K-sorbate + K-meta only to fresh juice, to wine, or to both, and in what proportions
Sweetening options: sugar, honey, wine conditioner, etc...

Thank you very much for your answers.


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## acorn (Nov 14, 2014)

^^ Anyone, please, I could really use some advice here as I have a gut feeling that something may go not as I thought and spoil the whole batch.


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## Deezil (Nov 14, 2014)

1. You may want to add pectic enzyme and bentonite both, to the batch but I would do it after the f-pack is in the wine, and dose it for the whole batch. 

3. You'll want to K-Meta + Sorbate the batch prior to adding the f-pack

4. Sweetening options are pretty open, just depending on what you want to do to the flavor


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## acorn (Nov 15, 2014)

Deezil said:


> 1. You may want to add pectic enzyme and bentonite both, to the batch but I would do it after the f-pack is in the wine, and dose it for the whole batch.
> 
> 3. You'll want to K-Meta + Sorbate the batch prior to adding the f-pack
> 
> 4. Sweetening options are pretty open, just depending on what you want to do to the flavor



Thanks for the tip, but I am not using a kit. The wine is "ready", awaiting back sweetening in a carboy. Sorry for the confusion. 

What I am asking is ONLY about the fresh squeezed juice that I am going to use as a medium for dissolving a sweetening agent, instead of water. Hence, I am worried whether I need to add pectic enzyme to this fresh juice, so that upon adding it to the wine it doesn't produce some sort of haze. What about using fining agents in the fresh squeezed juice to clarify it before sweetening it and adding to the batch of wine?

Also, do I need to add sorbate and K-meta to the syrupy fresh juice before adding it to the rest of the wine, thus backsweetening it?


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## Deezil (Nov 15, 2014)

I dont make kits personally, so I'm sorry if you got that impression. I was referring to the 'batch' as the ready wine, and the f-pack as the fruit;

I know you're asking about the fresh juice, but in order to treat the fresh juice separate from the wine, you would have to k-meta it to keep it from spoiling, then add pectic enzyme ~12 hours later, let it sit for a few days, then rack off the sediment and add what's left to the wine.

It's easier to K-Meta+Sorbate the batch / ready wine, then add the f-pack, and treat the whole batch for hazing issues - both with pectic enzyme for pectin haze, and bentonite for protein hazes.

What you're asking is possible, it's just riskier. You run the risk of losing the f-pack juice, of it spoiling on you; it's safer in the alcohol laden environment where there's less things that can ruin your hard work. You can address the hazes either way.

Always add the sorbate to the wine, not the f-pack. You want it to find the yeast in the wine before the sugar does. I usually wait a week between adding the Sorbate and any sweetening I do; others dont wait as long. But I've got the time..


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## acorn (Nov 15, 2014)

Deezil said:


> I dont make kits personally, so I'm sorry if you got that impression. I was referring to the 'batch' as the ready wine, and the f-pack as the fruit;
> 
> I know you're asking about the fresh juice, but in order to treat the fresh juice separate from the wine, you would have to k-meta it to keep it from spoiling, then add pectic enzyme ~12 hours later, let it sit for a few days, then rack off the sediment and add what's left to the wine.
> 
> ...



Great! Thank you very much! It is very helpful. I will give it a try all the same. In fact, to delay any possible spoilage, I am going to pasteurize the juice in hot water bath, add pectic enzyme and then put it into the refrigerator for a few days. I used Sparkolloid on the wine batch, and it worked perfectly. I will try the same with f-pack.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Nov 15, 2014)

Hold on a minute. If your concern is to much acidity now you are going to add more with your homemade Fpac. You also have a concern about bitterness and you are about to add more of the same. You have never said if this is red raspberry or black raspberry. Both of these can be used at 3-6 pounds/gallon easily, that might seem like a lot to the "bloody pee" crowd but this is very typical range. Balancing your tartness from the acid, which is mainly citric acid, cant be done by chilling it, that is only with tartaric acid, simply backsweetening it with sugar or honey until you like it and then dosing with fresh sorbate will balance that part easily. I am more wondering where your bitterness comes from, how did the raw berries taste? Have you added anything else not mentioned in your first post? Sometimes the seeds can be left to long in the primary and they can add a bitterness that might age out, there are some fining agents that are supposed to target bitter tannins that may or may not help (havent used them). WVMJ


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## acorn (Nov 15, 2014)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Hold on a minute. If your concern is to much acidity now you are going to add more with your homemade Fpac. You also have a concern about bitterness and you are about to add more of the same. You have never said if this is red raspberry or black raspberry. Both of these can be used at 3-6 pounds/gallon easily, that might seem like a lot to the "bloody pee" crowd but this is very typical range. Balancing your tartness from the acid, which is mainly citric acid, cant be done by chilling it, that is only with tartaric acid, simply backsweetening it with sugar or honey until you like it and then dosing with fresh sorbate will balance that part easily. I am more wondering where your bitterness comes from, how did the raw berries taste? Have you added anything else not mentioned in your first post? Sometimes the seeds can be left to long in the primary and they can add a bitterness that might age out, there are some fining agents that are supposed to target bitter tannins that may or may not help (havent used them). WVMJ



Yes, good observation. It is red raspberry wine. I am not sure why I didn't mention it, but I started off following a recipe that recommended adding 1/2 tsp acid blend per gallon among other things, as I did, using a triple acid blend. As I discovered post-fermentation, this was redundant, especially with the presence of malic acid in the blend that only became more pronounced in the dry wine. 

During the last racking I tried 2 samples - one of wine as it is (kind of wacky, as I described), and another with a dash of sugar. The second sample demonstrated noticeable improvement through sweetening. 

I decided to use the fresh juice to boost the flavor, and, if anything, it is less acidic than the wine because I won't be adding any acid or blend to the f-pack. I don't doubt that this definitely won't hurt the flavor of the wine. I was only hesitant about adding the f-pack in terms of potential side effects, such as heavy haze or spoilage prior to it being added to the batch of wine. That cleared, I am quite confident that it will turn out to be a decent wine (it just doesn't work if left dry, as it is).

Thanks, everyone, for your valuable input! I will post an update to let you know how it fares in the end.


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## photoactivist (Nov 22, 2014)

So, I see you said you did not submit your wine to mlf; have you considered it? MLF softens the acidity mouthfeel, and may be what you want to do.
Also, I read you macerated your fruit during primary fermentation. With fruit wine, maceration isn't always best. I believe small berry clusters, such as raspberries, are ones you probably should have left whole to avoid steeping out the astringency and bitterness.
As for back sweetening, if you're making liquid from your own raspberries, you may wish to fine it with bentonite. That will help clear solid particles. Do a bit more research, because you definitely don't want to get more bitterness or acidity introduced into it.


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## cintipam (Nov 22, 2014)

Raspberry is citric acid. I just went to Jack Kellers page to check. Pretty sure I remember reading that you never want to do mlf on citric acid, only malic. I've never done MLF, so please somebody with more experience chime in here. MLF does bad thing to citric acid if I'm remembering correctly.

Pam in cinti


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## cintipam (Nov 23, 2014)

Finally found my source. I had this in my notes saved from WMT.


*NOTE: Do not use citric acid or acid blend if you are planning a malolactic fermentation. Malolactic must be inhibited as it converts citric acid, if available, into acetic acid during this fermentation.

Pretty sure that's why they say to only do MLF on apple or pear fruit wines.

Pam in cinti


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## acorn (Nov 24, 2014)

cintipam said:


> Finally found my source. I had this in my notes saved from WMT.
> 
> 
> *NOTE: Do not use citric acid or acid blend if you are planning a malolactic fermentation. Malolactic must be inhibited as it converts citric acid, if available, into acetic acid during this fermentation.
> ...



Thanks a lot for your input, it is reassuring! I should have posted the update by now, as I backsweetened yesterday, just didn't have time to report it here. Yes, I specifically avoided MLF because raspberry is full of citric acid that is bound to convert to vinegar during MLF. Besides, since I am backsweetening I have to use sorbate, and I have to be mindful of the MLB and sorbate clash that produces geranium odor/flavor. One more thing that I realized: in the beginning I used acid blend (yes, rookie mistake), that contains malic acid that probably gives off some of that bitterness and wouldn't have metabolized even if I wanted for the wine to go through MLF.

Anyway, here is what I actually did to prepare the f-pack. 
1) Thawed a bag full of frozen raspberries (my bad, I should have recorded the weight) and squeezed it through a coarse nylon bag.
2) I repeated the procedure with a finer nylon bag.
3) Added a dash of K-meta and a dose of pectic enzyme
4) Let it sit in a magnum bottle (total volume of juice with pulp was about 1 L) in the refrigerator for about a week.
5) Siphoned off the sediment and filtered it using paper filters for a coffee maker to get more clear juice.
6) Dissolved some Sparkolloid and added to the juice. Added another dash of K-meta, transferred the juice to the 750 ml bottle (full) and left in the refrigerator for 3 more days. 
7) In the meantime, I added sorbate and 1 campden tablet to the 3 gallon batch of wine to prepare it for backsweetening. 
8) After 3 days, I siphoned the crystal clear juice of the fine sediment and dissolved about 4.9-5.0 oz of sugar in it, thereafter adding it to the wine. 

Results:

Resultant S.G. = 0.997 (up 0.007 from the original of 0.990)
Residual sugar concentration (artificially added) = 1.2% (about 11 g/L)
pH = 3.2
TA = 8 g/L
Alc./vol. = 13.5 %
Taste: sweetness and freshness of the f-pack juice evened out the biting acidic taste considerably, as well as suppressed some of that volatile acidity with fresh raspberry aroma. 

All in all, I must say, though it started rough, the end result is rather pleasant. I think I am going to let the wine further sit in the carboy for now and then will bottle it in about 2 months. 

I'll report the final product (with pictures) here some time in January. Thanks a lot to everyone who contributed and shared their valuable experience.


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## Northerngal (Dec 8, 2014)

I am new to winemaking as well, and this has been a great thread to read. I'm excited to see your results!

Jenn


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## sour_grapes (Dec 9, 2014)

Northerngal said:


> I am new to winemaking as well, and this has been a great thread to read. I'm excited to see your results!
> 
> Jenn



Welcome, Jenn! There is a subforum called "Introductions" (http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f21/) where you could introduce yourself!


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## Boyd (Dec 24, 2014)

If you have a problem with tannins in your wine you might try egg whites to remove some of it.

One egg with the whites separated, a pinch of salt to dissolve the egg white and about a 1/4 cup of water. Stir gently to avoid foaming. Takes quite a lot of stirring aver a period of time.

Works well with elderberry wine which sometimes produce a lot of tannins.


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## acorn (Jan 14, 2015)

Wine bottled. Thank you all who made this process easier for me.


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