# Big and little bubbles



## akron (Jun 8, 2020)

I am doing my first ever batch of SP and it has gone very well, and is still going. yesterday I checked SG at .994 and while I had it out I degassed it....lots of bubbles released. Before gassing, there were lots of tiny bubbles rising up. This morning the bubbles are about twice as large as yesterday. Does this mean the removal of co2 got the fermentation going more actively?  I have been stirring daily during primary fermentation, but haven’t since it went into the secondary.


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## sour_grapes (Jun 8, 2020)

I realize that the following is overly technical, but I _think_ it is correct.

I believe what such an observation would mean is that you reduced the supersaturation of CO2 by degassing. Therefore, you increased the size of the critical nucleus of a bubble. The critical nucleus size is the size of a newly formed bubble that is equally likely to grow or to shrink. With lots of CO2, a smaller bubble can grow, whereas with less (but still supersaturated) CO2, a bubble must be larger before it is probable to grow. 

So, before degassing, one expects many, smaller bubbles. After degassing, one may expect fewer, larger bubbles. See Classical nucleation theory - Wikipedia .


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## akron (Jun 9, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I realize that the following is overly technical, but I _think_ it is correct.
> 
> I believe what such an observation would mean is that you reduced the supersaturation of CO2 by degassing. Therefore, you increased the size of the critical nucleus of a bubble. The critical nucleus size is the size of a newly formed bubble that is equally likely to grow or to shrink. With lots of CO2, a smaller bubble can grow, whereas with less (but still supersaturated) CO2, a bubble must be larger before it is probable to grow.
> 
> So, before degassing, one expects many, smaller bubbles. After degassing, one may expect fewer, larger bubbles. See Classical nucleation theory - Wikipedia .


I love science! There is a mathematical answer for everything (almost). My major professor used to say if you. cant express something mathematically, you don’t understand it. Not sure I believe that absolute statement, but. math helps. Thank you.


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## akron (Jun 10, 2020)

An update: SG is still .994 two days later so will check tomorrow and then take the next steps which include degassing, sulphite, sorbate. Degassed twice since previous note and I am amazed at how much gas in in there. I think I will rack before i do next steps in case the little bit of lees are contributing to the gas. I’m doing this manually with a long spoon handle so far.


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## Val-the-Brew-Gal (Jun 25, 2020)

akron said:


> An update: SG is still .994 two days later so will check tomorrow and then take the next steps which include degassing, sulphite, sorbate. Degassed twice since previous note and I am amazed at how much gas in in there. I think I will rack before i do next steps in case the little bit of lees are contributing to the gas. I’m doing this manually with a long spoon handle so far.



I remember being surprised too when I made my first SP that there was so much CO2 being released. I've since bought the All in One Pump and it makes degassing a breeze


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## DizzyIzzy (Jun 26, 2020)

akron said:


> An update: SG is still .994 two days later so will check tomorrow and then take the next steps which include degassing, sulphite, sorbate. Degassed twice since previous note and I am amazed at how much gas in in there. I think I will rack before i do next steps in case the little bit of lees are contributing to the gas. I’m doing this manually with a long spoon handle so far.


Think about purchasing the AIO. I have been using it to degas and rack into secondary's, and it is so easy! I can't wait until it's time to bottle so I can try that function. BTW................you are lucky your SP fermented down to .994. I never got mine below 1.022 so I racked it into a secondary and am hoping that "time will heal all"..................................................Dizzy


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## Val-the-Brew-Gal (Jun 26, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Think about purchasing the AIO. I have been using it to degas and rack into secondary's, and it is so easy! I can't wait until it's time to bottle so I can try that function. BTW................you are lucky your SP fermented down to .994. I never got mine below 1.022 so I racked it into a secondary and am hoping that "time will heal all"..................................................Dizzy


Best thing I ever did was buy an AIO! Having the right equipment makes winemaking so much easier and. more enjoyable.


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## KCCam (Jun 26, 2020)

Here, here to the AIO! It removes almost all of the stuff about wine-making that ISN'T fun. It even makes sanitizing carboys easier.
@DizzyIzzy, you will LOVE it for bottling! *Try it with water first. *I can bottle on the counter, or in the sink. I don't think I've ever spilled a drop, but I do it in the sink just in case. Make sure your carboy is below the level of your bottles. Adjust the length of the filler tube for the amount of space you want in the bottle below the cork. Keep your thumb on the vacuum release valve and hit it just as the wine comes to the top. It doesn't have to be precise, but getting it right helps prevent wine from being sucked into the vacuum hose. The precision adjustable vacuum valve on the overflow bottle helps too if you happened to get one with your pump. It slows down the fill rate. Good luck.


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## KCCam (Jun 26, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> BTW................you are lucky your SP fermented down to .994. I never got mine below 1.022


@DizzyIzzy - I thought I was the only one to have trouble with SP. The only time I tried it, I had really weird problems. Floating "popcorn twists" in the beginning and stuck fermentation later on. I kept trying everything I could think of to restart it. I was scared to bottle it with so much residual sugar. After 2 months, I finally threw in every frozen berry I could find in my freezer, some frozen bananas, 1 1/2 pounds of raisins, and a bunch more sugar and turned it into *??? Dragon Pee ???*. Haha. The fermentation then completed quickly and cleared well, and was almost as good as my first batch of the original Dragon Blood I made at the same time.


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## DizzyIzzy (Jun 27, 2020)

KCCam said:


> Here, here to the AIO! It removes almost all of the stuff about wine-making that ISN'T fun. It even makes sanitizing carboys easier.
> @DizzyIzzy, you will LOVE it for bottling! *Try it with water first. *I can bottle on the counter, or in the sink. I don't think I've ever spilled a drop, but I do it in the sink just in case. Make sure your carboy is below the level of your bottles. Adjust the length of the filler tube for the amount of space you want in the bottle below the cork. Keep your thumb on the vacuum release valve and hit it just as the wine comes to the top. It doesn't have to be precise, but getting it right helps prevent wine from being sucked into the vacuum hose. The precision adjustable vacuum valve on the overflow bottle helps too if you happened to get one with your pump. It slows down the fill rate. Good luck.


KCCam, Thanks for the primer on bottling. I will write it all down and use that info at time of bottling. I didn't know about the "adjusting of the length of the filler tube"? It was not included in the AIO instructions. I will try to figure out just what that means. Your "popcorn twists" are quite unique. Wonder what that is all about? Anyhoo..................sounds like your innovative Dragon Pee worked out really well. I am almost afraid to look at my SP which I racked into a carboy @ 1.022.......so'o afraid! What state do you live in?


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## KCCam (Jun 28, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I didn't know about the "adjusting of the length of the filler tube"?


You'll know what I mean once you try one, but the attached picture shows what I'm referring to as "the filler tube" circled in red. Push that tube further into the bottle to leave more space. The wine will be at the level of the bottom of that bent tube because wine goes into the bottle from there, and when you release the vacuum, it sucks it back out from that tube (which is why your carboy has to be lower than the bottle).
I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.


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## KCCam (Jun 28, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I am almost afraid to look at my SP which I racked into a carboy @ 1.022.......so'o afraid!


There are lots of experts here... I'm NOT one of them. But my understanding is that if wine is perfectly clear, and the SG doesn't change for 3 days, add K-Meta & Sorbate and wait a week. If still no change in SG then it *should* be OK to bottle. I've also read that "the best way to restart a stuck fermentation is to bottle it!"


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## akron (Jul 12, 2020)

After degassing my SP for over 10 days to no avail and two boil-overs, I ordered an AIO unit. Looking forward to its degassing abilities as well as the no-lift racking and bottling.


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## KCCam (Jul 12, 2020)

akron said:


> After degassing my SP for over 10 days to no avail and two boil-overs, I ordered an AIO unit. Looking forward to its degassing abilities as well as the no-lift racking and bottling.


Oooo, I don't think you won't be sorry. 
Especially for SP, I advise you to apply vacuum *very *gradually. If you think stirring releases CO2, wait until you apply a little vacuum! My last batch of Dragon Blood took a couple of days to degas, slowly applying more and more vacuum, but by the end I could apply as much vacuum as the AIO could make with nary a bubble. I should have racked a few times under vacuum, I think that would have accelerated the process, but I'm still relatively new to it as well.


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## akron (Jul 13, 2020)

Thanks for the tip! I’ve had enough boil-overs!


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## KCCam (Jul 13, 2020)

akron said:


> Thanks for the tip! I’ve had enough boil-overs!


That’s another good thing about the AIO, since you’re degassing in a closed system with vacuum, if you apply too much vacuum and it bubbles up like crazy, the bubbles get sucked into the “overflow” bottle and don’t spill anywhere. It can make the release valve sticky, but that’s easy to disassemble and clean. Sure beats cleaning the normal mess that a volcano makes!


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 14, 2020)

akron said:


> After degassing my SP for over 10 days to no avail and two boil-overs, I ordered an AIO unit. Looking forward to its degassing abilities as well as the no-lift racking and bottling.
> [/QU
> 
> 
> ...


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## sour_grapes (Jul 14, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Because of my smaller size it is impossible for me to lift a full carboy (even with the orange handle). I have devised a way of moving them_ without lifting_ by placing the full carboy on a scatter rug and pulling the rug (with carboy on top) into the kitchen for bottling. I use this same technique when moving the carboys around during racking. Just a thought................................Dizzy




That is a good idea. Very simple and effective.

Many of us use a furniture dolly (picture below, available at Harbor Freight or the like for small money) or a plastic milk crate. Or both! The milk crate has the advantage of protecting your carboy from bumps.


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## hounddawg (Jul 18, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I realize that the following is overly technical, but I _think_ it is correct.
> 
> I believe what such an observation would mean is that you reduced the supersaturation of CO2 by degassing. Therefore, you increased the size of the critical nucleus of a bubble. The critical nucleus size is the size of a newly formed bubble that is equally likely to grow or to shrink. With lots of CO2, a smaller bubble can grow, whereas with less (but still supersaturated) CO2, a bubble must be larger before it is probable to grow.
> 
> So, before degassing, one expects many, smaller bubbles. After degassing, one may expect fewer, larger bubbles. See Classical nucleation theory - Wikipedia .


man you just dying to take the country outta country wine making,, lol,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jul 18, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> That is a good idea. Very simple and effective.
> 
> Many of us use a furniture dolly (picture below, available at Harbor Freight or the like for small money) or a plastic milk crate. Or both! The milk crate has the advantage of protecting your carboy from bumps.


some 1 by lumber or 3/4 plywood between the carpeted ens will greatly increase stability
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jul 18, 2020)

in my state milk crates are $500 dollar a crate fine,,,
Dawg


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## sour_grapes (Jul 18, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> man you just dying to take the country outta country wine making,, lol,,,
> Dawg



Don't worry -- feel free not to learn anything from me! There won't be a test!


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## sour_grapes (Jul 18, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> in my state milk crates are $500 dollar a crate fine,,,
> Dawg



Yeah, but you can buy "milk" crates at Office Depot or Walmart or the like for <$8. (Do they have Walmarts in Arkansas?  ) You can buy them legally. They are _really_ milk crates, but they serve the purpose.


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## hounddawg (Jul 18, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Don't worry -- feel free not to learn anything from me! There won't be a test!


oh no, i'm all for learning, just not admitting to it,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jul 18, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Yeah, but you can buy "milk" crates at Office Depot or Walmart or the like for <$8. (Do they have Walmarts in Arkansas?  ) You can buy them legally. They are _really_ milk crates, but they serve the purpose.


old man walton is from Arkansas, walmart started in benton ar,
Dawg


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## sour_grapes (Jul 18, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> old man walton is from Arkansas, walmart started in benton ar,
> Dawg



Rest assured, I was well aware of that fact when I posted. Hence the wink!


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## akron (Jul 19, 2020)

So I finally got my AIO pump and racked the SP.....got it pretty well degassed and on to clarifying. Very easy to rack without lifting. I’m going to like this little device!
I experimented with the pump by pulling a strong vacuum to see if any gas was left. Got large bubbles like it was boiling. Later looked up the boiling temperature of water under vacuum and saw that it boils at room temp at around 29” Hg. (?) Is that what I was seeing?Not co2?


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 19, 2020)

The CO2 will come out before substantial water evaporates.


akron said:


> So I finally got my AIO pump and racked the SP.....got it pretty well degassed and on to clarifying. Very easy to rack without lifting. I’m going to like this little device!
> I experimented with the pump by pulling a strong vacuum to see if any gas was left. Got large bubbles like it was boiling. Later looked up the boiling temperature of water under vacuum and saw that it boils at room temp at around 29” Hg. (?) Is that what I was seeing?Not co2?


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## sour_grapes (Jul 19, 2020)

akron said:


> So I finally got my AIO pump and racked the SP.....got it pretty well degassed and on to clarifying. Very easy to rack without lifting. I’m going to like this little device!
> I experimented with the pump by pulling a strong vacuum to see if any gas was left. Got large bubbles like it was boiling. Later looked up the boiling temperature of water under vacuum and saw that it boils at room temp at around 29” Hg. (?) Is that what I was seeing?Not co2?



Not likely (as @Rice_Guy alludes). 29" is a very, very deep vacuum. To convince yourself, you could try just pulling a vacuum on tap water, and see what happens.


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## hounddawg (Jul 19, 2020)

agreed with Rice & Sour
Dawg


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## KCCam (Jul 20, 2020)

akron said:


> 29” Hg.


That’s very close to absolute vacuum which is 29.9”. I’m sure they’re all a little different, but my AIO maxes out at about 23”. And once the CO2 is gone, I can pull the full 23” without a single bubble. Pure ethanol boils at room temperature at about 28” vacuum. Don’t worry about boiling your liquid with your AIO.


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## KCCam (Jul 20, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Not likely (as @Rice_Guy alludes). 29" is a very, very deep vacuum. To convince yourself, you could try just pulling a vacuum on tap water, and see what happens.


Also, you could try it on a bottle of 190 proof Everclear (which is as close as you can get to pure ethanol by distillation at normal pressure).


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## hounddawg (Jul 20, 2020)

i never do special vacuuming to pull gases out, and i have 2 whole house filter housings, one connected to my racking setup, the other connected to my bottling set up, so just then filtering when bottling, and all's good and well,,,  no extra time dogging, no special polishing,, i use polypropylene spun filters, 5 microns for reds and 1 microns for whites, and no fear of soapy taste that can happen with paper filters,,,,
Dawg .........,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


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## akron (Jul 20, 2020)

Thanks, All. Good to know I’m not boiling away my precious wine!


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