# Welch's concord with the super-sugar method



## jswordy

Well, I have no pix to post and so I am remiss, but I tasted the Welch's batch as I racked it over to new carboys, and it seems to have worked out well.

I used a high sugar/lower alcohol yeast method on this batch. SSG was 1.150 and it came out of primary at 1.050 still moderately working. Yeast was RC212 (12% ABV advertised). Four cans of Welch's per gallon were used, plus sugar. 

We now have a six and a five of modestly sweet wine that is not rocket fuel in which active fermentation has stopped and stabilization has begun with the addition of sorbate and meta in the transfer and degassing. 

For grins, I stuck a half a spiroll of French medium roast oak in the fiver. It's been in there 5 days now, so I'll pull it tonight.

Should be 60 bottles of interesting in 3-4 more weeks. I'll squirrel them away a little longer after bottling. A nice spring taste, maybe, to see how it comes along.

Yes, yes, I know ... sigh ... it's WELCH'S! But I can't help my lowbrow self, it is a fun must for me to play around with.

Next muscadine and then a kit white.


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## btom2004

Sound great nice to see you up and about making wine again.
Enjoy!


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## jswordy

Thanks. The oak was a nice addition. Just 5 days in, and so nice I pulled it and put it in the other carboy too!


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## jswordy

I bottled this yesterday. Got a 60-bottle yield, and it was semi-sweet and tasted about right at its young age so I didn't touch it as far as backsweetening or amending it. It's been bulk aging for around a couple months now, its real fruity and its drinkable, but 6 months will help it out a lot (which is why I made 60 bottles - maybe some will last!) 

So the results of this ferment:

1.) 4 cans Welch's concord concentrate per gallon is now my standard after a series of experiments.

2.) The super-sugar method with a very high SG combined with Lalvin RC212 is to me a keeper for this wine. It may be too sweet for some.

3.) Short exposure to one-half of a French medium roast oak spiroll in secondary was a good move. I'll lengthen the time next time, or maybe play with oak cubes in primary. I can see where the oak could add an edge to the wine that will be favorable, but the exact amount of time for the oak is not determined yet. Ideally, I can find that sweet spot where it can be consumed young and it will not have to rest many months to mellow.

I'm messing around with concentrate more right now because there is a vineyard I have found nearby that grows Concord, so this summer I should be able to use real fruit.


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## Loner

if you were to use oak cubes in primary how much would you suggest. My ferment just took off last night and I do plan to oak it a bit in primary.


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## jswordy

Loner said:


> if you were to use oak cubes in primary how much would you suggest. My ferment just took off last night and I do plan to oak it a bit in primary.



Kits use 4 ounces.


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## Loner

Thanks .. Will drop them in tonight.


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## jswordy

Loner said:


> Thanks .. Will drop them in tonight.



Let us hear about how it works out - type used and what result you get. Thanks.


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## Loner

Started 2/9 at 1.085. Added @4 ounces American Oak Cubes. (Medium Toast) 2/11. Went to 0.992 in primary under airlock. Racked to secondary 2/17. Took a sip tonight and can definitely appreciate the oak taste.


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## Bartman

jswordy said:


> I used a high sugar/lower alcohol yeast method on this batch. SSG was 1.150 and it came out of primary at 1.050 still moderately working. Yeast was RC212 (12% ABV advertised). Four cans of Welch's per gallon were used, plus sugar.


I'm glad it turned out the way you like, but your use of RC212 yeast caught my eye, because I use that yeast for my dry red wines from grapes and frozen juice. You say it is advertised at 12% alcohol tolerance, but I have never heard that. Here's the link to Lalvin's yeast strains page: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/strains.asp

I was particularly concerned that RC212 would not handle alcohol up to or over 14%; once I saw that it could handle 16%, I decided to use it. So, I'm trying to figure out if your info. was bad, or does real life differ from Lalvin's laboratory analysis of its yeast? Do you believe the ferment stopped because of the yeast strain or because of the other things you did to arrest it?


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## jswordy

Bartman said:


> I'm glad it turned out the way you like, but your use of RC212 yeast caught my eye, because I use that yeast for my dry red wines from grapes and frozen juice. You say it is advertised at 12% alcohol tolerance, but I have never heard that. Here's the link to Lalvin's yeast strains page: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/strains.asp
> 
> I was particularly concerned that RC212 would not handle alcohol up to or over 14%; once I saw that it could handle 16%, I decided to use it. So, I'm trying to figure out if your info. was bad, or does real life differ from Lalvin's laboratory analysis of its yeast? Do you believe the ferment stopped because of the yeast strain or because of the other things you did to arrest it?



Apparently I got confused or received bad information about 212 and ABV. The yeast definitely stopped well short of consuming all the sugar because of the high SSG. 

I selected 212 because of the red wine characteristics, and it has performed wonderfully for me. I had previously used EC1118 or 71B1122, both of which have much higher ABV tolerances, and the beauty part of 212 is that right out of the carboy at bottling (which in my scheme is about 2 months out of primary), the wine had very little of the "rocket fuel" taste from raw alcohol that the others had imparted. I saved the lees in Mason jars in the fridge, and drank the wine that they settled from with no raw alcohol taste. 

I also liked the result of using the oak, and will do that again. I want to experiment more with it.

The ferment is fairly vigorous when the wine goes into secondary (which is an old blueberry winemaking trick I used here). Moving to anaerobic early changes the behavior of the yeast, is my belief (not science, my observational belief). Just be sure to leave headspace or get ready to use your mop.

I did not add more k meta or sorbate until just a few days before I was to bottle it. The wine is semisweet. It is not Mogan David sweet, and there is not a sticky sugar streak when the small amount of leftover liquid is allowed to dry out overnight in the glass (both good signs for my tastes).

Now we'll see with some aging what happens.

I definitely think that, with these three changes (early secondary timing, yeast strain and oak) that I have been fooling around on, I am onto something. This is the first-ever batch of Welch's concord that I did not back sweeten or back flavor prior to bottling, and I do make a lot of this wine. 

Now it's recipe tweaking time. If you try it, I would enjoy reading your results and maybe we can tweak it together until we hit on something grand. Can we make silk from a sow's ear? Let's TRY!


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## garymc

If I extracted the info right, you went to 1.150 sg to start and it went into the secondary at 1.050 sg moderately working. Did you take a sg reading of the finished product? 
Looking at the Jack Keller chart, 1.150 is off the chart. But making an extrapolation it looks to me like 1.150 would go to about 20.3% alcohol if it could be fermented to 1.000. If you added the adjustment for going all the way to dry, it would be 21.3%. So if your yeast does 16%, it would die off leaving the wine at 1.040 to 1.030, more or less. Inquiring minds want to know. What was your sg at bottling?


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## Enologo

Just noticed this thread and have been thinking about trying something with the Welches and just happen to have a packet of RC 212 hanging around. I could have missed it but I don't think you mentioned how much sugar was added. I'd probably try a 5 gal. batch what would you recommend for the sugar and I was also thinking about adding some raisins but again what would you think for a 5 gal. batch???


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## garymc

You can figure it out yourself by looking at the chart on this page: http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/hydrom.asp 
Just keep in mind, when you use this to estimate how much sugar to add, you have to account for the sugar that's in the grapes or juice to start with. So, 10 pounds of sugar in 5 gallons would be 13% PLUS whatever sugar was in the juice originally. That's why you want to use a hydrometer.


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## jswordy

Gary's telling you right. Test your juice, then add to 1.150. I think I wound up using like 1-1/4 pounds per gallon, IIRC. Pretty sure you can start at 1 pound/gallon with 4 cans of concentrate/gallon and get real close. Then test and add. It's a little dance to get to your desired total volume and SSG reading.

Please, anybody who's trying this, let's hear about your results and tweaks, since it's still experimental until it has been replicated a few times. Thanks.


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## jswordy

garymc said:


> If I extracted the info right, you went to 1.150 sg to start and it went into the secondary at 1.050 sg moderately working. Did you take a sg reading of the finished product?
> Looking at the Jack Keller chart, 1.150 is off the chart. But making an extrapolation it looks to me like 1.150 would go to about 20.3% alcohol if it could be fermented to 1.000. If you added the adjustment for going all the way to dry, it would be 21.3%. So if your yeast does 16%, it would die off leaving the wine at 1.040 to 1.030, more or less. Inquiring minds want to know. What was your sg at bottling?



You know, those are darned good questions. I bottled this 12/31/12, so that's several batches ago. I can't recall the SG; might still have it written down. I used the hydrometer to calculate the ABV, so I must have taken it. Guess you'll have to make some to find out! 

It quiets down pretty quickly in secondary.


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## garymc

I think I'd start a little shy of 1.150. If the finish is 1.030 or higher, that's a little sweet for me. And I have a batch of 1.035 muscadine that won't ferment any further and is way too sweet for me. So I'll have to blend it or add a gallon of juice with no sugar added and see if I can get that to restart. Maybe I'll blend a gallon and replace that gallon with juice.


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## Enologo

jswordy said:


> Gary's telling you right. Test your juice, then add to 1.150. I think I wound up using like 1-1/4 pounds per gallon, IIRC. Pretty sure you can start at 1 pound/gallon with 4 cans of concentrate/gallon and get real close. Then test and add. It's a little dance to get to your desired total volume and SSG reading.
> 
> Please, anybody who's trying this, let's hear about your results and tweaks, since it's still experimental until it has been replicated a few times. Thanks.



Yes, I did plan to test and adjust I just wanted to be make sure I have enough of every thing on hand once I start. I did see that Keller's recipe was calling for 1-1/4 lb per gal. and was as you said thinking about starting out with 1 lb per gal and a 1 lb of raisins and then see where my SG was then. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?? I will keep you posted when I actually get started.


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## jswordy

Enologo said:


> Yes, I did plan to test and adjust I just wanted to be make sure I have enough of every thing on hand once I start. I did see that Keller's recipe was calling for 1-1/4 lb per gal. and was as you said thinking about starting out with 1 lb per gal and a 1 lb of raisins and then see where my SG was then. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?? I will keep you posted when I actually get started.



Yep, sounds good. 

It will finish on the sweet side. Please keep me posted by PM. I have quite a few conversations about this going by PM now. People are having FUN! And the ingenuity is awesome.

So far, I've learned the concept is on the right track. Everything seems to be turning out 13% or maybe 14% ABV. That's good to know for my own next batch.


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## Enologo

OK here it is. Started yesterday
Bentonite. 
16 cans of concentrate.
5 1/2 lbs. of sugar.
1 1/2 lbs. of Raisins.
10 tsp. Acid Blend
2 1/2 tsp. Pectic Enzyme.
5 tsp. yeast Nutrient.
French Oak Chips ( Medium Toast).
H2O to make it 5 gal.
RC 212. Yeast.
Into the primary. Starting SG was about 1.130 if I was reading it correctly and away we go.


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## jswordy

Enologo said:


> OK here it is. Started yesterday
> Bentonite.
> 16 cans of concentrate.
> 5 1/2 lbs. of sugar.
> 1 1/2 lbs. of Raisins.
> 10 tsp. Acid Blend
> 2 1/2 tsp. Pectic Enzyme.
> 5 tsp. yeast Nutrient.
> French Oak Chips ( Medium Toast).
> H2O to make it 5 gal.
> RC 212. Yeast.
> Into the primary. Starting SG was about 1.130 if I was reading it correctly and away we go.



I'd have used 20 cans, but you're off and running.  You can always add concentrate on the back end. 

With that much acid blend, this is probably gonna be a tart wine. It will mellow some after 6 months. You may want to add concentrate on the back end after stabilizing to try to mellow the tartness up front some, pre-aging. Have to see how it tastes first.

I have gotten to the place where unless it is an alkaline fruit I rarely add acid in primary, but rather add it at the end if it is needed. 

So far the 212 seems to always finish for me at 13% ... let's see what you get. Please keep us posted.


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## Enologo

jswordy said:


> I'd have used 20 cans, but you're off and running.  You can always add concentrate on the back end.
> 
> With that much acid blend, this is probably gonna be a tart wine. It will mellow some after 6 months. You may want to add concentrate on the back end after stabilizing to try to mellow the tartness up front some, pre-aging. Have to see how it tastes first.
> 
> I have gotten to the place where unless it is an alkaline fruit I rarely add acid in primary, but rather add it at the end if it is needed.
> 
> So far the 212 seems to always finish for me at 13% ... let's see what you get. Please keep us posted.



Yeah thought I'd split the difference Keller says 2 which I've read was not enough you were saying 4 cause you like it sweet so I figured somewhere in the middle and thought I could add some later. I didn't realize the blend would make it tart though and that I could add it later on we'll see how it turns out maybe I'll have to change it on the next batch.


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## jswordy

Enologo said:


> Yeah thought I'd split the difference Keller says 2 which I've read was not enough you were saying 4 cause you like it sweet so I figured somewhere in the middle and thought I could add some later. I didn't realize the blend would make it tart though and that I could add it later on we'll see how it turns out maybe I'll have to change it on the next batch.



I say 4 because to me that's where the flavor is. Like any wine, you can make it as sweet or dry as you like by raising or lowering your starting specific gravity. If you start at ~ 1.070, for example, you will wind up dry with the same yeast.

I just wanted to comment on the acid because you may pucker up when you take a wee sample at the end of primary. The reason Jack Keller adds acid is because he uses less concentrate, so he has to make up for it. You can blend and sweeten it out later with concentrate, or age it out. Or both.

Let's see how it turns out!


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## Enologo

Now I can't wait to see. This is the hardest part for me.


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## jswordy

Enologo said:


> Now I can't wait to see. This is the hardest part for me.



It's why I make big batches. I will drink it when it is not ready, so I make more than I will drink and some does survive - usually.


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## Enologo

That's why I just picked up a 20 gal. Brute. I haven't used it yet but I'm getting ready to up the anti.:>


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## Arne

jswordy said:


> It's why I make big batches. I will drink it when it is not ready, so I make more than I will drink and some does survive - usually.


 Something about that statement sounds familiar. LOL, Arne.


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## jswordy

LOL @ Arne! I'm gonna have to send you a bottle of this concord after it ages awhile. Plus the wine's stature will be enhanced because the value of the wine will increase exponentially just because of the shipping charges! 

It'll go from around a $6 retail bottle to a $24 bottle by the time it gets to you!


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## ClarissaM

sorry to revive a dead thread but i think i really want to try this for my first brew. im thinking this a modification of the linked recipe, correct? has anybody tried this with the old orchard berry blend?
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/request121.asp


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## wineforfun

Not sure if it is or not but it is an awesome recipe on it's own. I make the super sugar Welchs often and it always turns out great. It is one of my wife's favorites.
I would recommend making according to jswordy's recipe. 
After you have a batch under your belt, then start experimenting, if need be.

Never made it with Old Orchard, etc. but as long as you stick to the 4 cans per gallon, the high SG to start with and the RC-212 yeast, it should be fine.


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## dralarms

jswordy said:


> Well, I have no pix to post and so I am remiss, but I tasted the Welch's batch as I racked it over to new carboys, and it seems to have worked out well.
> 
> I used a high sugar/lower alcohol yeast method on this batch. SSG was 1.150 and it came out of primary at 1.050 still moderately working. Yeast was RC212 (12% ABV advertised). Four cans of Welch's per gallon were used, plus sugar.
> 
> We now have a six and a five of modestly sweet wine that is not rocket fuel in which active fermentation has stopped and stabilization has begun with the addition of sorbate and meta in the transfer and degassing.
> 
> For grins, I stuck a half a spiroll of French medium roast oak in the fiver. It's been in there 5 days now, so I'll pull it tonight.
> 
> Should be 60 bottles of interesting in 3-4 more weeks. I'll squirrel them away a little longer after bottling. A nice spring taste, maybe, to see how it comes along.
> 
> Yes, yes, I know ... sigh ... it's WELCH'S! But I can't help my lowbrow self, it is a fun must for me to play around with.
> 
> Next muscadine and then a kit white.







Jim, what's your final sg?


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## ClarissaM

i havent really seen a recipe from him. i saw the bit about 4 cans and yeast. i read the comments about gravity. i however didnt see anything about campden, nutrient or pectic acid.


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## dralarms

ClarissaM said:


> i havent really seen a recipe from him. i saw the bit about 4 cans and yeast. i read the comments about gravity. i however didnt see anything about campden, nutrient or pectic acid.



Most use potassium bimetasulfate, instead of campden, with welches nutreint and petic normally not needed.


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## JimmyT

I didn't use sulfites to start but used after fermentation was complete. I did however use yeast nutrient and energizer.


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## jswordy

Heck, I figured anyone who has made wine knows the basics of the way to make wine and should be able to make this wine based on what I have included in this thread. In fact, I do receive from time to time bottles sent to me by forum members who have successfully made it. Many thanks to those who have sent me them!  Keep them coming! 

No need to worry about final SG, I'd think it should wind up around 1.040 or even 1.030. Who cares? The key is, *How does it taste to you?* Let it go into carboy and sit there until the yeast are dead (no more bubbles in the airlock). If you use the specified yeast at ~ 70 or so degrees liquid temp, you should wind up with residual sugar and no need to back sweeten. This is a method as old as wine.

Rack, stabilize and preserve, degas, bottle. If it is too dry, stabilize and add sugar (but it should not be). It does NOT improve much, and certainly not much more after ~ 3 months. May improve slightly to ~6 months. The chief component of improvement is rounding of the alcohol flavor. I have kept a bottle for over a year, and that does smooth it out some more but the profile is the same.

I used to oak it but no more. The oak makes it take a lot longer to be smooth.

This is a lowbrow, highly popular, wine. 



*Here's a very cautious "recipe" for those who don't know how to make wine:*

Makes 5 gallons

*1.)* 4 cans Welch's Concord frozen concentrate per gallon (meaning you pour 20 cans in the primary bucket, then top to 5 gallons)

1/4 tsp k meta

Sugar

Blend liquid, sugar, k meta to achieve 1.150. Let sit for 24 hours (this is primarily to ensure that your primary and your water are sanitized - the juice is sterile as it comes from the can.)

*2.)* One packet RC212 yeast

Sprinkle yeast on top after 24 hours of sitting time. Do not stir. Ferment with the bucket lid on loosely (laid on top) or a towel over the bucket in a cool or air conditioned area at ~70 degrees liquid temperature.

Stir morning and night every day after the first. After day 3 check gravity daily.

*3.)* When SG hits ~ 1.040-1.050, transfer to carboy and attach airlock. (This is the same as making good blueberry wine, where you rack it over at 1.030-1.040. The yeast enters anaerobic division early by doing this.) 

*4.)* Allow wine to sit covered in a cool place to maintain ~ 70 liquid temp. Rack it over as sediment builds to 1/2"-3/4" in carboys (typically, the sediment is all yeast, as the concentrate is factory filtered). 

Add 1/4 tsp. k meta every other racking, until it finishes. (Finishes means no bubbles whatsoever from the airlock for at least a week.)

*5.)* Don't reach for your hydrometer - reach for your wine thief. Taste it. Taste good, sweet enough? Rack over to a clean carboy with potassium sorbate by bottle directions and 1/4 tsp. k meta, degas, let sit a couple extra days, and bottle.

If not, add potassium sorbate by bottle directions and then granulated sugar to the wine, stirring well, until desired taste is achieved (see note below). Add 1/4 tsp. k meta, degas, and allow to sit one week to assess yeast dormancy (it will be fine). Taste good? Bottle.

*NOTE:* The one thing you need to remember when adding sugar (granular or liquid) to any wine is that sugar will bloom with time. You want to back sweeten any wine to just shy of ideal. As it sits a few more days, sweetness will increase as the sugars go more into dilution.

I hope this helps less experienced winemakers. Cheers!


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## wineforfun

FWIW, my final SG ends up around 1.026-1.036. Every batch is a little different but oh so good.


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## JimmyT

I just finished fermenting this recipe last week and is sitting in a carboy as of 6/9. It finished at 1.034


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## wineforfun

JimmyT said:


> I just finished fermenting this recipe last week and is sitting in a carboy as of 6/9. It finished at 1.034



That sounds just right. 

It is like Welch's grape juice on steroids. Good stuff.


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## JimmyT

wineforfun said:


> That sounds just right.
> 
> 
> 
> It is like Welch's grape juice on steroids. Good stuff.




My first taste after it stopped moving for 3 days, I had a little from what wouldn't fit in my carboys. It was surprisingly decent right out of the fermentor. Can't wait til month 3 or 4!


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## ClarissaM

thanks for the clarification jswordy and others! your original post may have been perfect for those who have made wine before but i am an absolute beginner. ive read recipes and watched youtube until my eyes bled but ....
i did start work on my first batch. it smells great and its really hard not to go taste it like every 5 minutes. lol i cant tell if its still fermenting or the gases are just slowly escaping but otherwise it looks good.


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## wineforfun

JimmyT said:


> My first taste after it stopped moving for 3 days, I had a little from what wouldn't fit in my carboys. It was surprisingly decent right out of the fermentor. Can't wait til month 3 or 4!



Yes, it will be good right away and get better after a couple of months. 

Since you don't have to backsweeten, that is why it is pretty good right off the bat. Everything is pretty much already done but a little waiting.

Now you can start messing with it a little bit. 
I have made it with some oak(wasn't a huge fan of that).
I have made it with cinammon and clove in the secondary, while clearing(it turned out good, like a spiced Welchs).


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## wineforfun

ClarissaM said:


> thanks for the clarification jswordy and others! your original post may have been perfect for those who have made wine before but i am an absolute beginner. ive read recipes and watched youtube until my eyes bled but ....
> i did start work on my first batch. it smells great and its really hard not to go taste it like every 5 minutes. lol i cant tell if its still fermenting or the gases are just slowly escaping but otherwise it looks good.



Did you add acid blend to it? That is listed in the original recipe, just not in this thread. I believe it was 1 Tbsp. per gallon.
Also, remember to add nutrient along the way.


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## jswordy

Yeah, sorry guys, DJ knows that anymore I just do everything by the General Rules of Winemaking and then how it tastes when it's done. I am pretty damn sloppy about science these days. It drives him nuts, too. LOL - ask him! He'll tell ya!

I dunno, recipes and all, after a few years it just comes along. Main thing is, if you get going in almost any direction that is not a ruined wine, and *you have piled up enough fruit up front,* you can always alter the taste of anything on the back end if you need to. The only thing that is hard to alter is being *too weak on fruit in the primary.* THAT'S where you want to spend the money to push it as hard as you can.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say if you see a recipe says use X amount of fruit, you should try to double it. All-juice / no water is the best kind of wine. I like the flavor to burst out of the liquid.

Like that acid thing - if I add acid nowadays it's gonna be at the end with most fruits. Lots more control there. Anyway, feel free to ask me for my address to send me samples! LOL!!!


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## jswordy

ClarissaM said:


> thanks for the clarification jswordy and others! your original post may have been perfect for those who have made wine before but i am an absolute beginner. ive read recipes and watched youtube until my eyes bled but ....
> i did start work on my first batch. it smells great and its really hard not to go taste it like every 5 minutes. lol i cant tell if its still fermenting or the gases are just slowly escaping but otherwise it looks good.



This is really a perfect wine for a beginner, Clarissa. You will learn so many things that will form the base for your further adventures! FUN!


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## wineforfun

jswordy said:


> Yeah, sorry guys, DJ knows that anymore I just do everything by the General Rules of Winemaking and then how it tastes when it's done. I am pretty damn sloppy about science these days. It drives him nuts, too. LOL - ask him! He'll tell ya!



No kidding, that paragraph has my head spinning already.

WHAT? no recipe. 

I do agree with Jim though, make sure you have the fruit/flavor up front.
Also, I am starting to heed his and @Bernard's advice and worry about the acid, etc. additions/tweaks on the back end.


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## wineforfun

jswordy said:


> You will learn so many things that will form the base for your further adventures!



Yeah, like WELCHS RULES


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## jumby

Should this be racked into a 5 or 6 gallon carboy after fermentation? What is the approximate time from pitching the yeast to bottling? Just to clarify too I'm looking for a starting SG of 1.150 correct? Not 1.115?


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## jswordy

jumby said:


> Should this be racked into a 5 or 6 gallon carboy after fermentation? What is the approximate time from pitching the yeast to bottling? Just to clarify too I'm looking for a starting SG of 1.150 correct? Not 1.115?



Should this be racked into a 5 or 6 gallon carboy after fermentation? 

Please see post #35 in this thread.

What is the approximate time from pitching the yeast to bottling?

The approximate time is dependent on liquid temp and volume, but ranges from 5-10 days. Trust your hydrometer. At ~70 degrees, it generally takes 6-7 days at my house to primary ferment a 10-gallon batch. (I rarely bother with 5 gallons of wine anymore.)

Just to clarify too I'm looking for a starting SG of 1.150 correct? Not 1.115?[/QUOTE]

Yep. That's why it the "super-sugar method." That's also why the yeast is just sprinkled on top and not stirred in for the first day, so it can acclimate. If you use a hydrated yeast, it can be stepped up in a two-stage hydration process to acclimate it. In that process, you start your yeast with a mild sugar water solution. Once going, you add some of the must to the yeast to double the liquid volume. Then once that is going well, you pour it gently on top of the must in primary. But that's a lot of work when sprinkling is just as good.

This is not Welch's (it's a medal-winning muscadine) but it shows you what the yeast bloom should look like before you stir it in the first time:





Here's a nice 10-gallon Welch's batch with beautiful fermentation underway after the yeast has been stirred in:





Makes me thirsty!


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## wineforfun

@jswordy,
Holy cow Jim, I REALLY need to get down your way and help consume some of that wine. 

10 gallons would last me quite awhile..................or make my wife and her friends really "happy".

Nice pics.


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## jswordy

wineforfun said:


> @jswordy,
> Holy cow Jim, I REALLY need to get down your way and help consume some of that wine.
> 
> 10 gallons would last me quite awhile..................or make my wife and her friends really "happy".
> 
> Nice pics.



Too late for that whole 20 gallons there - GONE!


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## JohnT

Oh dear lord!


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## dralarms

I figured you'd show up here sometime JohnT


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## gaboy

JS Wordy, Do you have that recipe for thr Muscadine wine in your picture? I hope to ferment my first of that kind this fall and need a proven recipe! GaBoy


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## CheerfulHeart

At the risk of sounding ignorant (hey, I've been there before LOL), how many cups of sugar is a good starting point to get close to 1.15?


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## sour_grapes

CheerfulHeart said:


> At the risk of sounding ignorant (hey, I've been there before LOL), how many cups of sugar is a good starting point to get close to 1.15?



Here is a nice tool you can use to calculate this: http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.html


----------



## CheerfulHeart

@sour_grapes: Thank you Paul! I appreciate the calculator. It will be a great help not only with the Welches but also with other wines.


----------



## Tony49

Think I made an oops.
Used 7 cups of sugar for a 3 gallon batch. (12 Welches)
SG came out to 1.035 before I tossed the RC312.
SG now is reading 1.090 one day later.
Wondering if I should put in more sugar or simple syrup now.
Or, wait till its time to rack.
Thanks 
Tony...


----------



## sour_grapes

Tony49 said:


> SG came out to 1.035 before I tossed the RC312.
> SG now is reading 1.090 one day later.



Are you saying that you put the sugar in, but did not stir it, so it did not dissolve? And that after a day, the sugar dissolved and raised the SG?


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> Think I made an oops.
> Used 7 cups of sugar for a 3 gallon batch. (12 Welches)
> SG came out to 1.035 before I tossed the RC312.
> SG now is reading 1.090 one day later.
> Wondering if I should put in more sugar or simple syrup now.
> Or, wait till its time to rack.
> Thanks
> Tony...



Ok, couple of things to address here.

1. I assume you mean with the sugar addition, the SG was 1.135, not 1.035? If you used 4 cans of concentrate per gallon, plus all that sugar, 1.035 wouldn't be possible, unless you added a ton(not literally) of water.
2. Assuming it was 1.135, no way it will drop that much in one day.
3. What was the total volume when the concentrate and sugar were combined.
4. Just to clarify, RC212.

Something is amiss here. Any other details you can share?


----------



## Tony49

Yes, RC212
The total volume juice, sugar, water is a tad over 3 gallons.
Sugar was simple syrup with 7cups of sugar and one gallon water.
Another gallon water added to come to 3gallons.
Took a reading just now and the hydrometer reads 1.090. 
Perhaps my dyslexia is getting the better of me or the hydro is defective.
I will throw the first reading out, since I am no expert and better opinion is that it is not possible. I will stand by the 1.090 however.
My feeling is that perhaps I did not put in enough sugar.
My question is when it would be best to add it.
Thanks very much for your help.
Tony...


----------



## wineforfun

Ok, tough call. You can certainly add it now but not knowing what the SG was in the beginning is going to make it tough, so you don't add too much.
I would probably just let it run dry, then backsweeten it. 
I am guessing, and it is only a guess, that you started with an SG of 1.095-1.100.
Not the super sugar method, but a safer bet for a good end result.

As far as I am concerned, I don't mess with simple syrup. You are adding in more water/liquid doing it that way. I just add straight sugar and mix it well. Never had any problems doing it this way.
If you make this again, and I highly recommend you do, for a 3 gal. batch add 12 cans concentrate(equals=144oz. liquid) and 242 oz. water. This makes a total of 386 oz. of liquid which is 3 1/4 gal. Then add the appropriate sugar to reach the 1.145-1.150 mark. 
The reason I go to 3 1/4 gal. mark(which it may be a bit higher with the sugar addition) is to have plenty to top up with when racking. That way when all is said and done you will be bottling a full 3 gal. worth.


----------



## Tony49

Many thanks for your help WFF.
I'll do as you suggest and back sweeten later.
Just getting back to making wine after my move, so I'm kinda stumbling along. I hope to get it together.
Cheers!
Tony...


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> Many thanks for your help WFF.
> I'll do as you suggest and back sweeten later.
> Just getting back to making wine after my move, so I'm kinda stumbling along. I hope to get it together.
> Cheers!
> Tony...



No worries, glad to help. We have all been where you are. Just keep plugging along. 
One thing I have learned along the way is it is pretty hard to screw up the wine. Even if it doesn't go quite as planned, you can usually make some adjustments along the way or on the back end to salvage things.


----------



## Tony49

Well, now that I've started again, I don't think there is any going back,
Really appreciate all the help here.
One of the things that is floating around in my mind:
When it comes time to bottle, I'd like to take a few bottles and add some cinnamon and cloves. Might make a nice wine to go with fruitcake during the holidays.
Thoughts?


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> Well, now that I've started again, I don't think there is any going back,
> Really appreciate all the help here.
> One of the things that is floating around in my mind:
> When it comes time to bottle, I'd like to take a few bottles and add some cinnamon and cloves. Might make a nice wine to go with fruitcake during the holidays.
> Thoughts?



haha
Atta boy. Now you are doing some thinking.
I did that with a gallon before. Not sure how much you would put in a bottle itself and you wouldn't have much control over the potency that way.
I put a cinammon stick and 2 cloves in a gallon carboy. Would have to look at my notes but I believe I left them in for 3-4 weeks. 
Yes, it gave it a nice hint of spice.

How far away from bottling are you? Is your 3 gal. batch in one carboy or 3-1 gal. carboy?


----------



## Tony49

Right now its in a plastic brewing pail. S.G. is 1.040.
By the way, figured out why I got false readings. The hydrometer was standing on the bottom of the pail. This time I used a wine thief. Lesson learned.
Today makes one week in the pail. Probably should put it in the three gallon carboy tomorrow with an airlock. Tastes kinda nice.
Not sure how I'll incorporate the spices. Maybe cut out a gallon after the final rack. Or, maybe just start a separate one gallon batch, which may be the better alternative. 
T...


----------



## jswordy

gaboy said:


> JS Wordy, Do you have that recipe for thr Muscadine wine in your picture? I hope to ferment my first of that kind this fall and need a proven recipe! GaBoy




I do and I even think I have the thread on here. If I can find it I will message you. Sorry so late, I am not popping in here as much as before.

UNDER EDIT: Found it. Coming your way.


----------



## BeginnerMark

U guys think this is comparable to manischewitz concord wine? I'm looking for a good recipe for a sacramental wine or communion wine for church  thanks guys sorry to bring this post back to life


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> comparable to manischewitz concord wine



I have had people compare it to that. 

It is like drinking regular grape juice on steroids.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks!! I think I'll be making this soon


----------



## BeginnerMark

1/4 tsp k meta

Sugar

Blend liquid, sugar, k meta to achieve 1.150. Let sit for 24 hours (this is primarily to ensure that your primary and your water are sanitized - the juice is sterile as it comes from the can.)

Can someone explain how to "blend sugar and k meta to achieve 1.150? 

How much sugar do I put?

How do I get to 1.150? This is with the hydrometer right? 

Thanks guys! I'm a beginner forgive my ignorance! I need very detailed stuff in order to understand


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> Can someone explain how to "blend sugar and k meta to achieve 1.150?
> 
> How much sugar do I put?




Here is a nice calculator to help you figure out your sugar additions: http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/ . (Don't worry about k-meta's effect on SG -- it will be negligible. )


----------



## BeginnerMark

Figured it out thanks!


----------



## Tony49

*Messed Up*

I racked to a three gallon carboy two weeks ago. Sg was 1.040.
Racked again 5 days ago. Sg was 1.030 with light activity.
Today I checked it and the sg was still 1.030.
Looks like it has stalled. 
Is there anyway that I can save this.
Thanks for any help.
Tony...


----------



## BeginnerMark

Mmm I'm not sure but maybe add more yeast to kick start it? Don't trust me though get a second opinion too.


----------



## Tony49

Just got back from the (not so local) hbs with some yeast energizer and more RC 212.
Whatayathink, throw in one or the other or both. 
Thinking I should rehydrate the yeast before adding.
I did this with prior batches and had success.
Thanks for any help.
Tony...


----------



## sour_grapes

Tony49 said:


> I racked to a three gallon carboy two weeks ago. Sg was 1.040.
> Racked again 5 days ago. Sg was 1.030 with light activity.
> Today I checked it and the sg was still 1.030.
> Looks like it has stalled.
> Is there anyway that I can save this.
> Thanks for any help.
> Tony...





Tony49 said:


> Just got back from the (not so local) hbs with some yeast energizer and more RC 212.
> Whatayathink, throw in one or the other or both.
> Thinking I should rehydrate the yeast before adding.
> I did this with prior batches and had success.
> Thanks for any help.
> Tony...



(Preface: I am not an expert, and I have never made a wine with the super-sugar method.) I don't understand why you racked the wine before fermentation was over. Is this part of the super-sugar method? The lees likely had lots and lots of your yeast colony it it -- which you discarded by racking, right?

So, yes, if it were mine, I think I would make a starter with your new RC-212 and re-inoculate.


----------



## ceeaton

@Tony49 - shouldn't of racked it. When you add this next batch of yeast let it go to dry, then rack it.

Paul, from what I've read on this thread the idea of the super sugar method is to boost the starting gravity to include what you would normally back sweeten with after the wine went dry. Tony didn't take an initial gravity reading, so we have no idea if his ferment stalled because it reached alcohol toxicity or if it ran out of nutrients, which Welchs is known to do. In the perfect super sugar method world, you pick a yeast that will give up the goat and leave enough sweetness to mimic fermenting dry, adding Kmeta and sorbate and backsweeting.

That all said it is an inexact science at best, and may take several batches with the same yeast to figure out where it's gonna crap out and what residual sugar level it will leave.

Just my 2 1/2 cents.


----------



## Tony49

Thank you gentlemen for your help.
This will go back to the primary today with a new yeast infusion.
One thing I will never do again:
Rack too early.
One thing I will always do:
Rehydrate my yeast.
Your assistance is very much appreciated.
Tony...


----------



## Tony49

Still 1.030 this A.M. Stirred in some yeast energizer.
Still1.030 this P.M. no activity.
Give it one more day then dump it. 
T...


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> Still 1.030 this A.M. Stirred in some yeast energizer.
> Still1.030 this P.M. no activity.
> Give it one more day then dump it.
> T...



Tony,
What was the SG to start with? Are you sure it was 1.090?
If it was around 1.140-1.150 then it would die off around 1.030.

If it truly was 1.090 to start with, I have no idea why it stalled out. I have never had it do that and I have made quite a bit of this.

Re-reading your one post, it states that you used 12 cans Welchs and 7 cups sugar. This should have given you an SG of much higher than 1.090.


----------



## jswordy

I wish I had seen this Tony post in time. Heat the water. Put it outside in 90 degree heat or put it in the warmest area of your house. However, if you started at 1.150 and went to 1.030, you should have a sweet wine with lots of kick. Exactly what it should be. Success. I hope you did not toss that out. This is not a wine that is supposed to go to dry. The yeast will not survive in that much alcohol! LOL.

But if you just used 7 cups sugar and the concentrate, you might not ever have gotten the SG high enough.


----------



## Tony49

Thanks for checking in gentlemen.
Here's what I did:
12 cans Welches Concord which is just about one gallon of juice.
Made a simple syrup of 3 3/4 lbs of sugar and water to about one gallon.
Added one more gallon of water to make just over three gallons.
Into the primary and one pack of Lalvin RC 212 sprinkled on top.
I have to throw out my initial PH reading as I think it as incorrect. 
Activity appeared good.
One week later S.G. was 1.040, good taste.
Next day 7/18 racked to three gallon carboy. Lees were about 3/4 inch.
7/26 checked S.G. at 1.030. Taste sweet, fruity, strong.
Still that way.
Took a bigger taste this A.M. and I think I'm a bit .
Oh! Temp in the closet where the wine is, is presently 79degrees f.
jswordy, I think you may be correct. The second pack of yeast certainly did not survive even with nutrient.
Do you think it might be best to put this back into a carboy and let it age for a while ?


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> Thanks for checking in gentlemen.
> Here's what I did:
> 12 cans Welches Concord which is just about one gallon of juice.
> Made a simple syrup of 3 3/4 lbs of sugar and water to about one gallon.
> Added one more gallon of water to make just over three gallons.
> Into the primary and one pack of Lalvin RC 212 sprinkled on top.
> I have to throw out my initial PH reading as I think it as incorrect.
> Activity appeared good.
> One week later PH was 1.040, good taste.
> Next day 7/18 racked to three gallon carboy. Lees were about 3/4 inch.
> 7/26 checked PH at 1.030. Taste sweet, fruity, strong.
> Still that way.
> Took a bigger taste this A.M. and I think I'm a bit .
> Oh! Temp in the closet where the wine is, is presently 79degrees f.
> jswordy, I think you may be correct. The second pack of yeast certainly did not survive even with nutrient.
> Do you think it might be best to put this back into a carboy and let it age for a while ?



Jim is all over it with keeping it warm. This is the one wine I have to put my "heating pads" on the get it going and keep it going.

Tony, just an FYI, you are using PH in place of SG. Your readings of 1.040, 1.030, etc. are SG readings, not PH. 

I am trying to recollect from memory(which is quite scary and unreliable). For 2 gal. I use 8 11.5oz. cans(92oz. of concentrate) and 188oz. water(164oz. to make 2 gal., and an extra 24 oz. for racking and loss of volume due to lees). Here is where I am foggy without reading my notes but I believe I add 4cups, give or take, straight sugar. I usually end up with an SG of.1.140-1.145.

According to your above numbers, you should have had adequate sugar to push the SG high enough. So without having been there, I would again concur with Jim and hit it with some heat and see if that helps. If it doesn't get going, I have to believe you have used up all the yeast and are good to go. Don't dump it, just follow the rest of the directions, ie: clear it, kmeta, etc. and bottle it. Try it in a month then and see what you think. Then you can make your decision.

I just re-read your post and saw where you state it is strong. I am guessing it is done and you have succeeded. I would move forward.


----------



## Tony49

Yes S.G.-not P.H. Sorry, I went back and edited the post.
Got P.H. on the brain lately as I just ordered a P.H. meter. Maybe it will help my clumsy wine making.
Really appreciate you guys coming in and helping with this.
Glad you all (y'all now that I live in South Carolina) stepped in when you did.
Moving forward. 
Tony...


----------



## Bartman

ceeaton said:


> In the perfect super sugar method world, you pick a yeast that will give up the *goat* and leave enough sweetness to mimic fermenting dry, adding Kmeta and sorbate and backsweeting.


I know that Welch's wine isn't supposed to taste great, but is it really expected that the bouquet will have hints of "goat"?


----------



## jswordy

Bartman said:


> I know that Welch's wine isn't supposed to taste great, but is it really expected that the bouquet will have hints of "goat"?



It tastes great to me. Have you made any? Many who poo-poo it have not. Others have made poor versions, then blame the wine.


----------



## jswordy

Tony, like BJ says, move forward. You will likely now have to put your wine into the carboy for a month to let all that extra junk you added settle out. Do not bottle a cloudy wine! Wait until it clears. You can put it in a fridge or a real cold place to help aid that process, if available. Setting it very near an AC vent helps sometimes. By golly, sorry for the last efforts that were not needed, I wish I had checked in here sooner, but if it tastes good and kicks you back a bit, it is good!


----------



## Bartman

No, I haven't tried it. I was just joshing around with the mis-spelling. It must have some redeeming value for the attention it gets around here!


----------



## Tony49

Thanks js. 
Appreciate your advice.
Going to start another three gallon with Welches Concord and Old Orchard White Grape, which was the only white I could find locally.
Twice as much white to red should give a nice blush.
Yeast suggestions?


----------



## JimmyT

Just had a batch stop at 1.040. Is it worth it to re pitch some yeast after a starter or just let it roll being even sweeter than my last batch? Started at 1.146. Last batch was the same and ended at 1.034 and was almost too sweet but really good.


----------



## wineforfun

JimmyT said:


> Just had a batch stop at 1.040. Is it worth it to re pitch some yeast after a starter or just let it roll being even sweeter than my last batch? Started at 1.146. Last batch was the same and ended at 1.034 and was almost too sweet but really good.



Are you using RC-212?
If so, have you been keeping it warm? I know for me, I have to put my heating pads on it to get it going and keep it going. The only yeast I have had to do that with.


----------



## Tony49

Mine also finished on the sweet side, which is what I think its supposed to do.
Wonder how you could un-sweeten it and still retain the great flavor.


----------



## JimmyT

wineforfun said:


> Are you using RC-212?
> 
> If so, have you been keeping it warm? I know for me, I have to put my heating pads on it to get it going and keep it going. The only yeast I have had to do that with.




Yes I'm using the RC-212, it's been between 75-81 the entire process. I looked through my notes on my last batch and that was between 70-75. Along the timeline this batch was pretty much 5 degrees higher all the way through when comparing the two batches. 
I was thinking its only .006 higher than the last batch but didn't really want it sweeter than last batch. If I would redo a RC-212 by making a starter do you think it would take off since the others crapped out or should I consider using EC-1118 and have it go a lot lower on the sweetness but have a lot higher abv. I might just take a taste tonight and if it's not much sweeter than I'll just roll with it.


----------



## JimmyT

Tony49 said:


> Mine also finished on the sweet side, which is what I think its supposed to do.
> Wonder how you could un-sweeten it and still retain the great flavor.




The only way I know of un-sweetening is to ferment the sugar out!!!!


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> Mine also finished on the sweet side, which is what I think its supposed to do.
> Wonder how you could un-sweeten it and still retain the great flavor.



The only way at this time would be to dilute with water which would obviously dilute the flavor.

The only way initially is to lower your SG to say around 1.135-1.140 and that will end up with a lower residual sugar.


----------



## wineforfun

JimmyT said:


> Yes I'm using the RC-212, it's been between 75-81 the entire process. I looked through my notes on my last batch and that was between 70-75. Along the timeline this batch was pretty much 5 degrees higher all the way through when comparing the two batches.
> I was thinking its only .006 higher than the last batch but didn't really want it sweeter than last batch. If I would redo a RC-212 by making a starter do you think it would take off since the others crapped out or should I consider using EC-1118 and have it go a lot lower on the sweetness but have a lot higher abv. I might just take a taste tonight and if it's not much sweeter than I'll just roll with it.



You got me there. Maybe @jswordy will see this and chime in. I notice some of mine finish sweeter than others. I think it may just be the nature of the beast since we really aren't controlling the yeast and just letting it die off on it's own.

One thing I have done is like I mentioned in my other post. I use an initial SG of 1.135-1.140 which results in a lower FG.


----------



## jswordy

Wow, we are getting complex on this, measuring temps and worrying over FG deviations.

I just hit the SG, ferment and then drink mine, so I can't help much. It has been consistent in taste and sweetness for me. Please add to the knowledge by reporting on what you do and how it turns out. We can never have too much information.


----------



## wineforfun

jswordy said:


> Wow, we are getting complex on this, measuring temps and worrying over FG deviations.



Seriously? Have you forgot where you come from? We are talking about one of the most complex, sophisticated wines ever created...............Welch's. 

While some will never understand or be able to experience and appreciate the underlying notes and tones that are developed in Welch's, others will constantly strive to unlock this mystery of what makes it so great. 

There are those that are happy with "throwing together a kit" or "trying a new bottle from the store" and then there are US, those that are constantly seeking the holy grail of wine.............Welch's, and what truly makes it so great.


----------



## Tony49

[quoteThe only way at this time would be to dilute with water which would obviously dilute the flavor.
][/quote]
Heavens no. Better to mix in a gallon of Paisano.
T...


----------



## wineforfun

Tony49 said:


> [quoteThe only way at this time would be to dilute with water which would obviously dilute the flavor.
> 
> Heavens no. Better to mix in a gallon of Paisano.
> T...



Seriously, as Jim states, just put it all together and let it do its thing. Some finish sweeter than others but all ends up good.

The only reason I add my heating pads to it is that I have a hard time getting RC-212 going in my house. I have no idea what temp. it is at, I just turn them on for a few hours at a time. I never get concerned with keeping a must at a certain temp., etc. As long as it ferments, I am good to go.


----------



## JimmyT

Not trying to get technical with the temps lol. I always check and write it down for every batch I do to be consistent. I'll
Probably just rack it and let it go as is. I'll just have a glass of something else to get a buzz before I drink any of this if it's too sweet lol.


----------



## sour_grapes

I may be off-base in my thinking, but couldn't JimmyT add in more Welch's? I would think he could add in enough fresh juice so that the ABV falls to the level that RC212 could handle. Then ferment it back to the die-off ABV again. 

I think that basically what I am suggesting is that you could _still_ get the recipe right; even though it is half-fermented, you would be mixing in the sugar/juice ratio that you wanted to start with. The order is less important (assuming you can restart the fermentation).


----------



## BeginnerMark

Why do I feel like it's getting so complicated! I thought it would be easier than this! This is going to be my first wine that I make but I'm scared that I'll mess it up! Encouragement needed PLEASE


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> Why do I feel like it's getting so complicated! I thought it would be easier than this! This is going to be my first wine that I make but I'm scared that I'll mess it up! Encouragement needed PLEASE



haha
Don't let it "scare" you. It is REALLY easy to make. Probably one of the easiest wines to make you will ever make.
I literally put it all together and let it go. The yeast will eventually die off and then you just stabilize it, let it clear, and bottle. Done.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Can I use normal red wine yeast or does it need to be RC212


----------



## wineforfun

I only use RC-212 but I am sure you can use whatever yeast you like. Personally, I would experiment with different ones to see if you notice any differences.

For me, I have just always used 212 and it turns out well.


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> Can I use normal red wine yeast or does it need to be RC212



If substituting yeast, you should bear in mind the strain's alcohol tolerance, and choose your starting SG accordingly: https://winemakermag.com/yeast-strains-chart


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks @sour_grapes!


----------



## Tony49

BeginnerMark.
Just follow the basic recipe for one gallon. Pretty much any basic recipe.
You really can't get it wrong.
I used Lalvin Ec1118 for my first gallon ever, and probably not enough concentrate. Still came out very good if a bit alcoholic.
Next time I made it, I used RC212 and more Welches. Came out a bit better. Now I'm making three gallon jugs. 
Its a process. You have to start somewhere.
"Don't ever give up!"
And, trust these guys to help you out of jam if one should happen. They pulled my butt out of the fire a couple of times. (Thanks guys)
Tony...


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks tony! I'm going to get started on this in a couple weeks! Keep you all posted


----------



## JimmyT

Don't let my questions deter you. It really is as simple as the recipe calls for. I'm a little anal sometimes or more OCD than anything and my second go didn't match the first. I was simply throwing that question out to see if it was worth pitching more yeast to get the sg lower. 
On to another question I thought of as I was racking the latest batch of this stuff. Has anyone made this exact recipe with the white grape instead of the concord? If so, how'd it turn out? Anything you would change with the recipe?


----------



## mikewatkins727

*Welch's white grape juice*

I tried it. Came out OK by my standards.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Can someone give me a link from eBay for good K meta? ... Having trouble finding it

I bought potassium sorbate now I need to buy the KMeta help!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Can someone explain what's the KMeta used for and what the potassium sorbate does? And how to use it too lol
Sorry forgive my ignorance 
Hence my username is "beginner"


----------



## sour_grapes

Kmeta serves two functions: it is an antimicrobial that prevents spoilage by bacteria, and it is an antioxidant that prevents oxidation of your wine.

Potassium sorbate is "birth control" for yeast. It prevents them from producing by budding (asexual reproduction). In that manner, it prevents yeast from reproducing and causing a refermentation. This inhibition allows you to add sugar for backsweetening without the yeast waking up and eating it.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks sour grapes!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Last question I promise! In step number 4 the recipe called for me to rack it over after the sediments reaches 1/2-3/4" I rack it over to another carboy correct? What if I only have one carboy? Can I put it into my primary fermenter bucket clean the carboy and then put it back in the clean carboy? Thanks


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> Last question I promise! In step number 4 the recipe called for me to rack it over after the sediments reaches 1/2-3/4" I rack it over to another carboy correct? What if I only have one carboy? Can I put it into my primary fermenter bucket clean the carboy and then put it back in the clean carboy? Thanks



Yup, that is exactly what you do in the case that you only have one carboy.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Sour grapes your the best! Thanks a lot!


----------



## sour_grapes

You are welcome!


----------



## Arne

You want to lower your s.g. make another batch with a lower s.g. to start with. Let it finish out, blend the high batch with the lower batch to the s.g. you want. Arne.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Hey guys sorry to bother you all again but I need to know how much sugar is needed per gallon... I need to make sure because earlier in the thread you guys said 1 pound of sugar per gallon but what's the best way to dilute it? 
Thanks! I also plan on putting one pound of raisins too! Thanks


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> Hey guys sorry to bother you all again but I need to know how much sugar is needed per gallon... I need to make sure because earlier in the thread you guys said 1 pound of sugar per gallon but what's the best way to dilute it?
> Thanks! I also plan on putting one pound of raisins too! Thanks



Mark,
There is no "amount of sugar per gallon". You just need to use your hydrometer and get the reading up around 1.140-1.150, with the addition of sugar. Take a reading with just the juice and then start adding a cup of sugar at a time and you will get there.


----------



## wineforfun

Please don't anyone take this the wrong way but this wine shouldn't be this complicated to make.

Simply put it is no more than concentrate, sugar to 1.145, ferment, drink..........repeat. Now I am as anal retentive and OCD as anyone(jswordy can attest to this) but it really is that simple to make.

You can certainly tweak it here or there, as I have added spices, oak and other things but in the end, it all goes back to concentrate, sugar to 1.145, ferment, drink..........repeat.


----------



## jswordy

BeginnerMark said:


> Can someone give me a link from eBay for good K meta? ... Having trouble finding it
> 
> I bought potassium sorbate now I need to buy the KMeta help!



Did you find a source? There are tons. Two of the larger places:

Midwest Supply
Northern Brewer

I agree with wineforfun. This is as simple as it gets.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks guys sorry I'm just a little nervous first time and I'm afraid it doesn't come out good... Anyways 
Thanks a lot guys [emoji41][emoji2]


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> Thanks guys sorry I'm just a little nervous first time and I'm afraid it doesn't come out good... Anyways
> Thanks a lot guys [emoji41][emoji2]



No worries, trust me, I was there once too but this recipe and Dave's Dragon Blood are two of the easiest, and hardest to mess up, wines you will ever make.


----------



## BeginnerMark

ust a finished the first couple steps of the wine... Sorry to bother you but I have 3 questions 

1.You said that I leave it 24 hours before putting in the yeast in order to know if the primary is sanitized... How do I know if it's not sanitized? 

2.Also I put sugar and KMETA until I got a hydrometer reading of about 1.10 not 1.150 like you said in the recipe because I didn't want 20% alcohol so I reduced the sugar to get about 13-15% alcohol... Is this ok?

3.And last question sorry to bother you... At what SG do I switch it to the carboy and at what SG do I rack it over... Since I changed the original SG I'm pretty sure this would change too right? 

Thanks a lot! 
MARK


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> ust a finished the first couple steps of the wine... Sorry to bother you but I have 3 questions
> 
> 1.You said that I leave it 24 hours before putting in the yeast in order to know if the primary is sanitized... How do I know if it's not sanitized?
> 
> 2.Also I put sugar and KMETA until I got a hydrometer reading of about 1.10 not 1.150 like you said in the recipe because I didn't want 20% alcohol so I reduced the sugar to get about 13-15% alcohol... Is this ok?
> 
> 3.And last question sorry to bother you... At what SG do I switch it to the carboy and at what SG do I rack it over... Since I changed the original SG I'm pretty sure this would change too right?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> MARK



1: I don't know who said that, or where. 

2: It is okay that you reduced the sugar, but you will likely not wind up with a sweet wine. If you _had_ gone to 1.150 like the recipe calls for, you would NOT have gotten a 20% ABV. The yeast that you are using cannot survive in more than about 15% ABV. The whole premise of this recipe is that you put in more sugar than the yeast can possibly handle, let them eat as much as they can until they die (at 15% ABV), then the rest of the sugar is still available to make your wine taste sweet.

[3: No, those values won't change because you changed the starting SG.]

EDIT: I now think that my last answer, #3, is wrong. See Post#140 by Wineforfun (DJ). His answer makes more sense in this situation.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thank you so much!!!!!!!!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Left it for 24 hours put the yeast but the juice smells a little weird I'm a little scared... Any advice?!!


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> Left it for 24 hours put the yeast but the juice smells a little weird I'm a little scared... Any advice?!!



Yes! Have a drink and stop worrying!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Got a paint strainer and put crushed raisins in it and put it in my primary we'll see how it comes out can't wait!!


----------



## reefman

Not sure if this has been discussed in the thread, but *where* can you get a good deal on Welch's concentrate.
Local Walmart is $2.00 per 11.5 oz. can. Doing the math = $48/6 gallons JUST for the JUICE!


----------



## BeginnerMark

I went to publix and they only had "old orchard" and only 5 cans of welchs so I got the five cans of welchs and the rest "old orchards hopefully it comes out good


----------



## BeginnerMark

And yea they're the same price everywhere... It's better than buying a wine kit for 80$


----------



## BeginnerMark

Went to stir my primary for the first time found bubbles and a little almost reddish white circle in the must... Is this a good sign?


----------



## reefman

bubbles (CO2) means the yeast is working. There might be a head of foam on top which could be what you described.
The type of wine and other conditions will control whether you get a foam head on top. I recall a pretty thick foam on my last batch of concord, but it was from grapes, not concentrate.


----------



## wineforfun

reefman said:


> Not sure if this has been discussed in the thread, but *where* can you get a good deal on Welch's concentrate.
> Local Walmart is $2.00 per 11.5 oz. can. Doing the math = $48/6 gallons JUST for the JUICE!



I pay 1.97 at my Wal-Mart. 30 bottles/$48=$1.60 bottle. Pretty inexpensive.


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> ust a finished the first couple steps of the wine... Sorry to bother you but I have 3 questions
> 
> 1.You said that I leave it 24 hours before putting in the yeast in order to know if the primary is sanitized... How do I know if it's not sanitized?
> 
> 2.Also I put sugar and KMETA until I got a hydrometer reading of about 1.10 not 1.150 like you said in the recipe because I didn't want 20% alcohol so I reduced the sugar to get about 13-15% alcohol... Is this ok?
> 
> 3.And last question sorry to bother you... At what SG do I switch it to the carboy and at what SG do I rack it over... Since I changed the original SG I'm pretty sure this would change too right?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> MARK



1. Don't know where you read that either. Just wait 24hrs. before pitching yeast.
2. You should have stuck to the recipe and pushed it to 1.150. You wouldn't end up with 20% alcohol, your yeast will die off around 13.5-14%. It can't produce 20%.
3. Good question, now that you have changed things. I racked mine when it was 1.025-1.035 because that is where the yeast died off. You can probably wait until it is close to 1.000.


----------



## sour_grapes

Back in Post #130, I had written:



sour_grapes said:


> 3: No, those values won't change because you changed the starting SG.



But I now think that my last answer, #3, is wrong. See Post#140 by Wineforfun (DJ). His answer makes more sense in this situation.


----------



## BeginnerMark

It's ok guys i put more sugar and put the starting SG at 1.150 after I got an answer from u guys on Saturday ... And for my first question I read it on post 35 in the recipe by jsw... He said "leave for 24 hours before pitching yeast ( this is primarily to make sure your water and primary are sanitized)"


----------



## BeginnerMark

jswordy said:


> 1/4 tsp k meta
> 
> Sugar
> 
> Blend liquid, sugar, k meta to achieve 1.150. Let sit for 24 hours (this is primarily to ensure that your primary and your water are sanitized - the juice is sterile as it comes from the can.)
> 
> 
> *2.)* Cheers!




Here's the quote
my original question was how can I know that it wasn't sanitized properly?


----------



## reefman

Actually, there are a couple reasons I can think of to let the must sit for 24 hours before pitching yeast. 
(This is a "generic" instruction you will find with most recipes and also kits.)

1. If you made an addition of K-meta at the beginning, the 24 hours lets it do its job and kill any wild yeasts or bacteria that would compete with the yeast you are going to add.

2. It also allows any preservatives (such as P-Sorbate) in the juice to dissipate so it doesn't hinder your yeasts during fermentation. I think Welch's uses vitamin C as a preservative (I'll have to check) which would not be an issue with this recipe. However, other brands of juice may use Sorbate.

To answer your question, you only know you took the proper precautions by adding K-meta and allowing it to do it's job before adding the yeast.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Makes sense! Thanks! I used 14 cans of Old Orchards grape concentrate and 5 welchs because the store didn't have enough welchs and they're both preserved with Vitamin C... So I'm happy it wouldn't inhibit the yeast!
I think both companies taste the same so I'm happy!...

One other question... 

Would KMeta inhibit yeast if it was put in within the same couple hours?


----------



## reefman

K-meta will stun the yeast, but does not always kill it....so yes, it will inhibit the yeast if added about the same time.
Allowing 24 to 48 hours after adding k-meta is the rule before you add yeast.


----------



## BeginnerMark

My primary!!! What do u guys think am I doing well!? Looks like the yeast is working! But SG is still 1.150 after 3-4 days Foamy and bubbly on top.... There is a bag of raisins in the middle so don't be alarmed


----------



## reefman

Looks Great BeginnerMark!
Just one comment...trash the wooden spoon and get a plastic or stainless steel spoon. 
Wood will harbor all kinds of nasty stuff.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks reefman!!! Ok I won't use it anymore!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Foam foam foam and more foam! 4th night


----------



## BeginnerMark

Is it possible that it can bubble so much that it overflows the bucket overnight? I'm scared that it can make a mess


----------



## wineforfun

That looks exactly as it should, nice and foamy.

No, typically it is going to foam up quite a bit after stirring. It will then subside a little. It appears you have plenty of room in those buckets.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Perfect thanks!!!!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Comment Deleted


----------



## BeginnerMark

Someone told me they were worried that I will have methyl alcohol and not ethyl alcohol... They told me that if I get methyl alcohol people can go blind?!?! 
Can someone explain?!


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> Someone told me they were worried that I will have methyl alcohol and not ethyl alcohol... They told me that if I get methyl alcohol people can go blind?!?!
> Can someone explain?!



There is no danger of your getting dangerous levels of methyl alcohol from fermenting juice. 

It is possible for very small amounts to be produced in fermentation, but that is not a danger. The only time you could run into danger is if you then try to concentrate by distillation.


----------



## BeginnerMark

What is "concentrate by distillation"? So I can avoid it


----------



## sour_grapes

Distillation is an illegal (for a regular person) process involving a still. Think "moonshine," or liquor. I should say that we are NOT allowed to discuss distillation on this forum _at all_. I think it is okay to reference it in the way that I have, that is, only to note that you should not do it, but the mods will have the last word.

In short, do not worry about methanol.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Oh yea this recipe is far from moonshine
so I'm safe from methyl alcohol 
Thanks!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Is it ok if I stop fermentation early when it's around 10% alcohol by adding sorbate early?


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> Is it ok if I stop fermentation early when it's around 10% alcohol by adding sorbate early?



Adding sorbate will not stop the fermentation.

See: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=574447&postcount=3


----------



## jswordy

Mark, your must looks great, good fermentation going.

You will not get 10% alcohol - it will be higher than that if you followed the recipe and started at 1.150.

Your yeast are doomed to die of alcohol poisoning while the wine is in the carboy. This will leave residual sugar that they did not consume and so the wine will be sweet.

Once in the carboy phase, all you need do is to let the wine sit. It will throw sediment. Rack is every couple weeks. In a month or maybe 6 weeks, you will see that the new layer of sediment is very thin or maybe just a dusting. (With concentrates, there is little sediment in the juice. Almost all the sediment you will see will be dead yeast cells.)

At that time, you need to transfer to a clean carboy and stir the wine with the handle of a plastic spoon (they make spoons specifically for fermenting, about $5) to degas it. Keep gently stirring until all the CO2 bubbles stop rising up in the neck of the carboy.

Next, you add potassium sorbate according to bottle directions to inhibit the yeast.

(It's a matter of semantics - this essentially stops active fermentation with an active yeast by inhibiting their reproduction. Fermentation can continue another few days with the remaining live cells if there is adequate food, which is why you rest it 3 days before bottling after adding sorbate. Another method would be to bottle the wine and then Pasteurize it, but that's involved. You don't need to worry about ANYTHING between these parentheses with this recipe.). 

In this case sorbate addition is simply a bit of extra insurance, since your yeast should all be dead. We are just making sure. Do not over-add the sorbate. Use just what is directed. Let the wine sit a 3 days.

Then you sanitize your bottles and bottle it up. 

A very easy recipe, and you are well on your way!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Thanks JSwordy!!!! I got a taste yesterday! It its tastes great after only a week and a half! I think I'm just going to add juice to it to lower the alcohol a little bit at the end I was hoping on getting 10% ABV but since I can't stop fermentation early than I guess I have no choice but to let it finish... Thanks ALOT


----------



## jswordy

BeginnerMark said:


> Thanks JSwordy!!!! I got a taste yesterday! It its tastes great after only a week and a half! I think I'm just going to add juice to it to lower the alcohol a little bit at the end I was hoping on getting 10% ABV but since I can't stop fermentation early than I guess I have no choice but to let it finish... Thanks ALOT



Why are you so stuck on 10% ABV? If that's your goal, you need to start next time at a gravity of 0.85. That is not Welch's by the Super-Sugar Method. It's just another batch of wine using Welch's. Then you will taste it and you will scrunch up your face and start back-sweetening to try to make it good. Maybe that is a preferable method for you, since you an add to any level of dryness or sweetness then and get your 10%.

This Super Sugar method makes a "table wine" style. Table wines start as high as 1.190.


----------



## BeginnerMark

Oh thanks a lot! JSwordy! Idk I just didn't want a strong alcohol flavor but it'll be fine


----------



## jswordy

BeginnerMark said:


> Oh thanks a lot! JSwordy! Idk I just didn't want a strong alcohol flavor but it'll be fine



If it is too strong, you can try diluting it with a very strong grape juice. Add the sorbate, let sit 3 days. Then mix at least 4 or maybe 5 cans Welch's concentrate per gallon of your additive and dilute. You could bench test a small batch before going all the way. Let it rest awhile after dilution before bottling to make sure fermentation does not restart (it is not likely). You'll need an extra two or three one-gallon jugs with airlocks, as dilution will increase your yield.


----------



## BeginnerMark

So I think my primary stalled at 1.07 it's been 3 days now and it hasn't changed


----------



## BeginnerMark

jswordy said:


> *3.)* When SG hits ~ 1.040-1.050, transfer to carboy and attach airlock. (This is the same as making good blueberry wine, where you rack it over at 1.030-1.040. The yeast enters anaerobic division early by doing this.)





So it's the fourth day now and the SG has not changed... It's staying at 1.070... No sign of bubbles or foam... Should I rack it early? Should I put in more yeast? HELP


----------



## BeginnerMark

Im sorry everyone I bet you guys got annoyed of this thread reappearing a million times because of me...


----------



## BeginnerMark

Anyone please help


----------



## sour_grapes

First, I would like to make sure: You are using a hydrometer, not a refractometer, right? (A refractometer would give faulty readings after fermentation.)

How does it taste? Is it too sweet for your liking?

If you are using a hydrometer, and your SG is stuck at 1.070, this is what I would do. I would make a starter of RC212, and try to get a bit more of that fermented. 

Here is one protocol: http://www.enartisvinquiry.com/download/protocols/Restart%20Stuck%20Fermentation.pdf


----------



## BeginnerMark

It tastes perfect! It did ferment pretty well... it totally stalled at 1.070... And yes I use a hydrometer. I don't want more fermentation because I don't want a higher alcohol level... It's good now... u think I can just put it in the carboy? Not at 1.040

Thanks sourgrapes


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> It tastes perfect! It did ferment pretty well... it totally stalled at 1.070... And yes I use a hydrometer. I don't want more fermentation because I don't want a higher alcohol level... It's good now... u think I can just put it in the carboy? Not at 1.040
> 
> Thanks sourgrapes



Yes, I think you are fine to put it in the carboy. The only reason we don't go to the carboy too early is that a vigorous fermentation could spew out the neck of the carboy. No danger of that at this time.


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> It tastes perfect! It did ferment pretty well... it totally stalled at 1.070... And yes I use a hydrometer. I don't want more fermentation because I don't want a higher alcohol level... It's good now... u think I can just put it in the carboy? Not at 1.040
> 
> Thanks sourgrapes



I am very curious as to how you have been doing things, ie: stirring daily, heat on must, yeast used, etc. as there is no way that should have stalled at 1.070. I have made numerous batches and they always finish out around 1.025-1.035, with a starting SG of 1.145.


----------



## BeginnerMark

I stirred daily, I did not heat the must, used 2x rc212 started at 1.150 I did not use welchs but I used old orchards which had the same ingredients. My primary stalled at 1.070 sadly so I'll just put it in my carboy and let it clear


----------



## wineforfun

BeginnerMark said:


> I stirred daily, I did not heat the must, used 2x rc212 started at 1.150 I did not use welchs but I used old orchards which had the same ingredients. My primary stalled at 1.070 sadly so I'll just put it in my carboy and let it clear



Interesting, sounds like it should have worked. The only thing I do different is to keep the must warm while fermenting as I have troubles getting it to go with my house staying around 70 degrees, which is on the low end of the yeast temp.


----------



## BeginnerMark

My house is 76-78 degrees very weird that it stalled... Oh I forgot to say that I put a pound of raisins in a bag inside the primary but that wouldn't inhibit fermentation.


----------



## sour_grapes

BeginnerMark said:


> My house is 76-78 degrees very weird that it stalled... Oh I forgot to say that I put a pound of raisins in a bag inside the primary but that wouldn't inhibit fermentation.



Except that it does add about 2/3 of a pound of sugar. Did your initial SG reading come before or after that addition?


----------



## BeginnerMark

The reading was 24 hours after the addition so still not sure what the problem would be...


----------



## chasemandingo

So I had a premonition that I better check this thread as I used to be a regular on here and have not been posting lately do to a health/fitness binge and lack of wine making. Anyway I had a feeling I better check this thread to see if anyone has been posting on it and what do I find? The 4 page thread that I knew so well has expanded over four fold! Anyway, I don't like my wines too sweet. Why hasn't anyone just set OG to achieve 15 percent alcohol which is the upper limits for rc212 anyway. Ferment dry then back sweeten to desired FG. I prefer 1.02 max. I would also be doing at least one tannin addition and some oak. Anyone think medium heavy toast would be good in this? Gonna start a batch soon.


----------



## chasemandingo

Also, to quote Randy Quaid in Independence Day. I'M BACK!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wineforfun

chasemandingo said:


> Anyway, I don't like my wines too sweet. *Why hasn't anyone just set OG to achieve 15 percent alcohol which is the upper limits for rc212 anyway. Ferment dry then back sweeten to desired FG.* I prefer 1.02 max. I would also be doing at least one tannin addition and some oak. Anyone think medium heavy toast would be good in this? Gonna start a batch soon.



Because that is not the concept behind the "Super Sugar Method".

The recipe you speak of is just a general juice run dry, then backsweeten. That is fine, but not how this one is set up to work. And if you don't like sweet wines, you will definitely not like this one as it typically ends up around 1.025-1.035, with 13-14% ABV.

I have oaked with some success, but don't use it anymore. 
But I, like you, don't prefer an overly sweet wine so I make this for my wife and her friends and they don't like oak.


----------



## chasemandingo

I guess it wouldn't technically be the super sugar method....however, is there any evidence that fermenting dry then back sweetening would result in an overtly different flavor profile than letting the yeast putter out in the sugary must?


----------



## BeginnerMark

Left the wine to clear for about 3-4 weeks... How long have you guys seen it take to completely clear and be ready to bottle?


----------



## chasemandingo

By around the 30 day mark my wines fall clear. Buy that doesn't mean that it still wont drop sediment in the bottle. If you really wanted to be sure you would degas thoroughly, add superkleer, wait for it to clear up then run through a filtering system.


----------



## wineforfun

chasemandingo said:


> I guess it wouldn't technically be the super sugar method....however, is there any evidence that fermenting dry then back sweetening would result in an overtly different flavor profile than letting the yeast putter out in the sugary must?



I would assume it would be similar if you backsweetened up to the 1.025-1.035 area. 
I know for me, this wine is a little heavier/thicker than a normal wine. I am sure it is do mostly to all the residual sugar, which could probably be attained by what you are proposing.

It really is a very simple recipe and wine to make. Sugar to 1.145-1.150, ferment, stops where it stops, done. 13-14% ABV. Welchs grape juice on steroids. Great stuff.


----------



## BeginnerMark

I love it!!! Tastes sooo good! I'm in love with this recipe! Going to wait till the 30 day Mark and we'll see how it goes


----------



## JimmyT

Just bottled another 3 gallons on Saturday. I ferment then rack off gross lees. Let sit for a month then bottle. It's not crystal clear looking through it but I think that's just how it is. I use bentonite and pectic enzyme during primary also. I don't care to filter seeing how this is meant to be a cheap quick wine. Everyone I give some to loves it and they keep wanting more!


----------



## BeginnerMark

Hey jimmyT is it a problem if I leave the lees in the carboy for another week? It's about half an inch thick on the bottom. I don't want lees taint or anything after working so hard!


----------



## chasemandingo

My local meijer has old orchard juice concentrates on sale for a dollar a piece....may be time to do the super sugar method after all


----------



## JimmyT

BeginnerMark said:


> Hey jimmyT is it a problem if I leave the lees in the carboy for another week? It's about half an inch thick on the bottom. I don't want lees taint or anything after working so hard!




Usually after the one month mark I have 1/4"-1/2" at most and it turns out fine. I'd say your probably good. The lees stay compacted pretty well but I'm still pretty careful not to suck any up. I transfer to another carboy then bottle from the new carboy.


----------



## BeginnerMark

I'm going to transfer to another carboy and let it sit for another week just to be sure... Thanks jimmy


----------



## JimmyT

That's what I do with my cheap mist kits. Do as per the directions then rack carefully off sediment into clean carboy. Then instead of bottling I let sit for atleast 2-3 months. I add more kmeta and bottle after transferring into a clean carboy at that point. 
Glad I could help!


----------



## chasemandingo

So I used 23 cans for 5.5 gallons. Added sugar to 1.14 O.G. Right now I'm around 1.08 S.G. Hope it turns out good! Im gonna rack around 1.035 onto some medium heavy toast American oak and let it ferment till it fizzles out!


----------



## jwcooper

I just racked my second 5 gallon batch of this. I can't make it fast enough so I have actually been toying with upping my setup to 10+ gallons. I use essentially the same recipe but I started this recipe for my dad, he insisted it be high alcohol and sweet. This batch turned out almost perfect, the only exception is that it is far too sweet for my palate. I must admit that up until now I didn't use a hydrometer as I just figured out how to use one, I'm certainly going to employ it on the next batch. The recipe I use is 2 cans of concord grape and 1 can of apple per gallon, 2lbs of sugar per gallon and your basic wine additives. I however use Redstar Pasteur Red yeast and it ferments rather quickly and produces great flavor with very little off smells or tastes. I plan on trying this again this week but switch it to 3 cans white grape and 1 can concord per gallon and Redstar Cuvee Premier yeast to make a sort of blush and I'm certainly bringing the sugar and alcohol levels down.


----------



## chasemandingo

My batch started at 1.140 and fizzled out at 1.055.....I think due to temp around being around 60 the whole time.....got itpushing 80 right Now and have a little activity.....down to 1.46 currently with gravity adjusted for temp....gonna try to get it down to 1.03.....


----------



## wineforfun

chasemandingo said:


> My batch started at 1.140 and fizzled out at 1.055.....I think due to temp around being around 60 the whole time.....got itpushing 80 right Now and have a little activity.....down to 1.46 currently with gravity adjusted for temp....gonna try to get it down to 1.03.....



Were you using RC-212? If so, that would be my guess as to why it fizzled. I have to keep heat on it when using that yeast.

Mine always finishes between 1.020-1.030.


----------



## chasemandingo

Yep I was using RC 212. I bought a heating pad and taped it to the primary. Then I picked up one of those foil emergency blankets they sell in the camping departments and wrapped that around the primary along with a couple bath towels. I can easily bring it up to 75-80 even when my house is in the 60's. I hope I can coax the gravity down. The lower it goes the more the acid shines through. That is obviously a product of using 4 cans per gallon. So the more my S.G. drops the more wine like -- and less juice like -- this becomes. Im really excited to see where some oak and tannin take this wine just hoping fermentation continues.


----------



## wineforfun

My house temp. is usually set around 68-70 so whenever I use RC-212 I automatically get the heating pads out to get things going. After fermentation starts, I usually turn them on for a couple hours a day to keep it moving. Always works out for me.

Curious to see what you think of the oak and tannin. I have oaked it before(not a ton, and not for very long) and it turned out ok. I am not a big fan of oaked concord.


----------



## chasemandingo

Well just started a welches at 1.106 @ 70 degrees.......going strong! Gonna run it as dry as possible and blend with the other.....both batches will have 1.5 tsp tannin added prior to blending.....then post blending one batch will get oak and the other will get the bottle....prob gonna bottle up some half gallons as I'm not sure I want 50 bottles of welches around the house...


----------



## wineforfun

chasemandingo said:


> Well just started a welches at 1.106 @ 70 degrees.......going strong! Gonna run it as dry as possible and blend with the other.....both batches will have 1.5 tsp tannin added prior to blending.....then post blending one batch will get oak and the other will get the bottle....prob gonna bottle up some half gallons as I'm not sure I want 50 bottles of welches around the house...



Just keep in mind this is more of a std. Welch's wine and not the super sugar method. Your SG was low for the super sugar method. You should be able to push this close to 1.000 depending on yeast used.


----------



## chasemandingo

Rc212 with a helluva starter. I'm shooting for a s.g. of around 1.00 cause my original ss method fizzled at 1.04 and is too sweet for me. Hopefully this blend will be more in step with my taste.


----------



## chasemandingo

Just gonna cross my fingers and hope for the flavor i'm looking for!


----------



## jayhkr

So question for y'all. I started this process on 12/14, as per the instructions on page 4, with the exception of making this a 1 gallon batch. Before the yeast was pitched, SG was 1.150. A few days later it was 1.130, loosely covered with a towel, no lid. The following days here is how my fermentation has progressed:
12/18 1.120
12/21 1.100
12/22 1.082
12/23 1.080

Temperatures stayed between 71-73 degrees.
Why the sudden slow down? According to the directions, I'm not to rack until it reaches 1.040-1.030. At this rate it may never get there. Any suggestions as I really want to do this one "by the book" to get a better wine than my very first batch. I used 1/2 packet of RC-212 since I'm only doing 1 gallon. Any thoughts or suggestions, or am I just paranoid over nothing? Thank you everyone!


----------



## Arne

Have patience. The yeast should keep on munching til they die off from too much alcohol. I don't know the tolerance RC-212 has for alcohol, but it should ferment down a ways yet. As it nears the end of fermentation it will slow down. When the specific gravity quits going down, it is done. It might go down very slowly at the end as the yeast will be getting weaker from the alcohol. Give it some time and Merry Christmas. Arne.


----------



## wineforfun

As Arne stated, things will start to slow down as the amount of yeast die off, especially with you only using a half a packet.
Make sure you are stirring that twice daily. 

Also, in the future, use the whole packet, regardless of size. I always use the whole packet when making 1, 2, 3, etc. gallon batches. Plenty of yeast that way.


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## jayhkr

Arne said:


> Have patience. The yeast should keep on munching til they die off from too much alcohol. I don't know the tolerance RC-212 has for alcohol, but it should ferment down a ways yet. As it nears the end of fermentation it will slow down. When the specific gravity quits going down, it is done. It might go down very slowly at the end as the yeast will be getting weaker from the alcohol. Give it some time and Merry Christmas. Arne.



Thank you Arne. I figured that was the case, but my first batch seemed to have gone much quicker.



wineforfun said:


> As Arne stated, things will start to slow down as the amount of yeast die off, especially with you only using a half a packet.
> Make sure you are stirring that twice daily.
> 
> Also, in the future, use the whole packet, regardless of size. I always use the whole packet when making 1, 2, 3, etc. gallon batches. Plenty of yeast that way.



Thanks wineforfun, I am stirring twice daily and going forward I will start using the whole packet from now on.

Thank you both for the help.


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## jayhkr

And still waiting....lol. Think I need more primaries, so I can start on other batches. Yep, local brew shop was right, it didn't take long for me to want to do 5 gallon batches. Currently sitting at 1.062, but it's becoming more difficult to keep things warm, even with my "heated sock" method. I'd hoped I would be transferring before New Year's Day, but might not happen. Oh well.


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## Arne

Careful when you start buying more primaries. Pretty soon while you are not watching they start breeding and shortly you have a whole winery full. LOL, Arne.


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## dralarms

Arne said:


> Careful when you start buying more primaries. Pretty soon while you are not watching they start breeding and shortly you have a whole winery full. LOL, Arne.



Ain't that the truth.


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## jayhkr

Arne said:


> Careful when you start buying more primaries. Pretty soon while you are not watching they start breeding and shortly you have a whole winery full. LOL, Arne.



That's not even the worse part yer! I live in a house built in the early 40's so the basement I do everything in is, well not the greatest when it comes to keeping things clean. So I've already started planning on building a wine room for everything! Yep, it's hit me hard!


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## tgc

Welch's concord has become my favorite. 2 1/2 cans per gallon. Last time I had some honey I used for sweetener and the rest sugar. It is clean, it tastes great and it will be drinkable in 6 months but it is best after a year. Think I will oak it this time.


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## FreestatePatriot

Welches is one of my favorite quick recipies. I use Latvin 1116 and drop from 1.080-1.085 to about 0.99, this gives me around 24 proof. It comes out pretty dry but I'll mix up a batch of this dry Welche's wine, 2:1 to 7up and make a great summer party punch.

It goes great with smoked pork bbq.


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## skitter

What about using primarily the White Grape Juice concentrate with 1-2 cans substituted for the 100% juice Grape/Peach concentrate?


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## dralarms

skitter said:


> What about using primarily the White Grape Juice concentrate with 1-2 cans substituted for the 100% juice Grape/Peach concentrate?



As far as I can figure all of the frozen concentrates can be done like that. The white grape, white grape peach, white grape raspberry and the concord all make a nice easy wine.


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## Arne

skitter said:


> What about using primarily the White Grape Juice concentrate with 1-2 cans substituted for the 100% juice Grape/Peach concentrate?



Here is a big secret for your winemaking journey. Most if not all the recipes you find are just a guide. Most can be improved by tweaking, checking and changing the acid, ph, any ingredients that you like. You are making the wine so make it the way you think you will like it. Keep track of what you do, tho, so when you come up with that wonderful wine you can try and duplicate it. Good luck with your new hobby. Arne.


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## skitter

Arne said:


> Here is a big secret for your winemaking journey. Most if not all the recipes you find are just a guide. Most can be improved by tweaking, checking and changing the acid, ph, any ingredients that you like. You are making the wine so make it the way you think you will like it. Keep track of what you do, tho, so when you come up with that wonderful wine you can try and duplicate it. Good luck with your new hobby. Arne.



Thanks!

I have been brewing beer for the past 3 years. My wife has been asking me for a while why I didn't attempt at some wine for her. As she drinks mostly sweet $8 Moscatos I figured start easy.

Learning a ton from here about how making Wine and brewing Beer are two completely separate animals, the only commonality is they both use Yeast, are sensitive to temperatures, and sanitization. All else goes out the window!


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## dralarms

skitter said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I have been brewing beer for the past 3 years. My wife has been asking me for a while why I didn't attempt at some wine for her. As she drinks mostly sweet $8 Moscatos I figured start easy.
> 
> Learning a ton from here about how making Wine and brewing Beer are two completely separate animals, the only commonality is they both use Yeast, are sensitive to temperatures, and sanitization. All else goes out the window!



Www.homewinery.com sells muscat juice and it taste like the Moscato wines.


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## skitter

My LHBS has the canned Alexanders Muscat grape juice as well


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## JohnT

**** Hasn't this thread gone on long enough?????


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## dralarms

JohnT said:


> **** Hasn't this thread gone on long enough?????



*nope*


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## JohnT

Sorry Dralarms.. Nothing personal! Just couldn't help it..


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## JimmyT

People can't help but to talk about the best wine ever!!!!
Ok best ever, no, but I have a lot of people asking for more of this every time they see me. Must have a bunch of hillbilly friends lol.


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## jswordy

JimmyT said:


> People can't help but to talk about the best wine ever!!!!
> Ok best ever, no, but I have a lot of people asking for more of this every time they see me. Must have a bunch of hillbilly friends lol.



I just went to a party where I as usual provided a selection of my wines. Everyone liked them and drank them to the last drop. But the comment I got at the end was, "When will you make some more of your concord?"

So there ya go... Now you know why, when I do make it, I make 20 gallons at a time!!!



Let the thread live on!!!


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## jayhkr

Yep, same here. We had our annual employee party and I brought 3 different wines. Needless to say this one was gone within minutes. Second was DD's Dragon's Blood, and last was my dry. However I think I'll knock the grape taste down from 4 cans per gallon to 3 cans per gallon. I like a "little" wine taste.


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## BeginnerMark

Hey guys I was just asked if my wine can expire after a while... It is capped not corked... And from what I have experienced I don't see any type of taint and it's been at least 4-5 months thanks guys LMK!


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## Tnuscan

WELCOME HOME -----JohnT-------


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## JohnT

Tnuscan....

I have been a moderator for a while now and have not had to send anyone to the corner... yet....


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## Tnuscan

JohnT said:


> Tnuscan....
> 
> I have been a moderator for a while now and have not had to send anyone to the corner... yet....



Please, you can call me Dave. 

Anyway, though a lot of people like welchs wine, I'm thinking some grapes just don't hold the characteristics needed for great wines. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying ,I'm pouring it out, oh no, I just won't be making it any more. Especially if it's going to get me in trouble with "The Moderator". ::


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## Arne

JohnT said:


> Tnuscan....
> 
> I have been a moderator for a while now and have not had to send anyone to the corner... yet....



Don't worry Dave, not much of a threat from John. Now if Julie starts threatening you, best watch out. You mite have to dust the corner, tho. Hasn't been used in a long time.  Arne.


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## wineforfun

Tnuscan said:


> I just won't be making it any more.



Too bad to hear you were bullied into not making it anymore. It is one of nature's true gems. The rest of us will continue on.


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## JimmyT

If I stopped making it I'd have some pretty upset friends to deal with!


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## JohnT

wineforfun said:


> Too bad to hear you were bullied into not making it anymore. It is one of nature's true gems. The rest of us will continue on.


 

Now you don't think I bullied you Dave.. *DO YOU???? DO YOU???*


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## Tnuscan

wineforfun said:


> Too bad to hear you were bullied into not making it anymore. It is one of nature's true gems. The rest of us will continue on.



Yes last nite I dreamt I stood in front of the mirror, I had Wine Snob Snob Wine words all over me, one on top of the other, just all over the place, on me.

It's not so bad. When I go by the frozen juice department I just close my eyes and keep walking. Ok..maybe I do gently drag my finger along the glass door, whispering to myself, baby steps...baby steps.

Yep now a days you'll find me just hanging around the frozen berries section. Reminiscing about the...ssshhh.....think I hear, The Moderator...gotta run and hide in another thread.


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## JohnT

Tnuscan said:


> Yes last nite I dreamt I stood in front of the mirror, I had Wine Snob Snob Wine words all over me, one on top of the other, just all over the place, on me.
> 
> It's not so bad. When I go by the frozen juice department I just close my eyes and keep walking. Ok..maybe I do gently drag my finger along the glass door, whispering to myself, baby steps...baby steps.
> 
> Yep now a days you'll find me just hanging around the frozen berries section. Reminiscing about the...ssshhh.....think I hear, The Moderator...gotta run and hide in another thread.


 

To be serious for a moment.. There is nothing wrong with making wine that you like. I do a lot of kidding around but, when serious, believe that you should make what you like. If that means making Welch's or from frozen fruit, or even jelly, Go for it!

Tastes differ and no one's taste is better than anyone else's.


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## wineforfun

JohnT said:


> To be serious for a moment.. There is nothing wrong with making wine that you like. I do a lot of kidding around but, when serious, believe that you should make what you like. If that means making Welch's or from frozen fruit, or even jelly, Go for it!
> 
> Tastes differ and no one's taste is better than anyone else's.



Nice save.


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## Tnuscan

JohnT said:


> Now you don't think I bullied you Dave.. *DO YOU???? DO YOU???*



No Biff, no I don't.


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## robert81650

Just finished a 5 gallon batch of Welch's, used the concentrate 6 cans, but instead of adding water I use Welch's grape juice. Seems to be very full bodied due to no water. Will set back for several months and see how it is after aging. I back sweetned with simple syrup as I do not like dry wines.


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## dralarms

robert81650 said:


> Just finished a 5 gallon batch of Welch's, used the concentrate 6 cans, but instead of adding water I use Welch's grape juice. Seems to be very full bodied due to no water. Will set back for several months and see how it is after aging. I back sweetned with simple syrup as I do not like dry wines.



That will be a bold wine for sure. Let us know how it turns out.


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## jayhkr

Hey guys, been awhile since I've been here but I have a question. Started my second batch of the super sugar recipe, this time 5 gallons (first batch was just 1 gallon). My initial SG was 1.150, added 1 packet of EC-1118 yeast. Kept everything around 70-75* stirring 1-2 times a day. Kept checking the SG till it reached 1.040-1.050 however it stalled at 1.080. Tried to get it going again by adding 1 1/2 tsp of fermi-K and another packet of EC-1118. Still no change in SG so I figured it was just done (odd though). Transferred it to secondary and have left it be for a week. Of course no sign of additional fermentation so I decided to try to get a little gas out of it tonight. Hooked up my brake bleeder and pumped away, and ZERO bubbles came up. Not one. Pumped it up to nearly 25" on the gauge and it didn't even burp. What gives? This is super odd to me. It tastes fine, like grape juice with a small kick. But can someone explain what's going on with my batch? I'm confused and a little lost. Thank you!


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## Arne

You said you tasted it. Was it gassy then? Sounds pretty fast, but maybe it just degassed itself. Arne.


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## jayhkr

I did taste it, no sharp "bubbly" taste. Even have shook it and only bubbles I get are the "air" bubbles. Really odd. Going to give it a bit more time then start enjoying it I guess. Only downside is the ABV isn't where I wanted it, but I guess I can deal with 9% instead of 12%.......less headaches that way!


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## Arne

I would let this sit in the carboy for a long time before bottling. Make sure all the sediment has fallen out. Think this one could be a prime candidate for a referment. Bummer when you check the wine supply and the corks start blowing out.. Only 9 %? Bet it will still set ya on your keester. Just a couple more glasses. LOL, Arne.


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## CGish

I started a 'freezer cleaner' batch of this several months ago, and finally got around to bottling today. Here is what went in:




It started at 1.150 and ended at 1.031.

It is clear and has a unique flavor.




According to Brewers Friend, this is 15.6% ABV and 504 calories per 12 oz!


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## sour_grapes

CGish said:


> I started a 'freezer cleaner' batch of this several months ago, and finally got around to bottling today. Here is what went in:
> 
> View attachment 28097



Sholy hit! I have not purchased 1/10 that number of concentrate cans in my adult life!

Looking good!


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## WI_Wino

CGish said:


> I started a 'freezer cleaner' batch of this several months ago, and finally got around to bottling today. Here is what went in:
> 
> View attachment 28097
> 
> 
> It started at 1.150 and ended at 1.031.
> 
> It is clear and has a unique flavor.
> 
> View attachment 28098
> 
> 
> According to Brewers Friend, this is 15.6% ABV and 504 calories per 12 oz!



Do you have a build thread for your brewpi and other electronic goodies I see in the background?


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## CGish

WI_Wino said:


> Do you have a build thread for your brewpi and other electronic goodies I see in the background?



I followed FuzzeWuzze's thread here for the BrewPi. The case is a conduit box like this and an outlet box like this with appropriate covers. I bought these at the local Lowes store, but Home Depot, Menards or any other home improvement store will have something similar.

View from the top:




View from the bottom:




Inside:




The 2 Channel Relay Board is tucked under the outlet. This keeps all of the 120 volt power in the outlet box and away from the Arduino:




I don't have a RaspberryPi in this setup. I bought a USB 3.0 bridge and extension cable so I could plug into my brewery computer (over in the corner - running Debian Linux):






In use:




There is a second Arduino in use. That build is documented in this thread here and here. It uses a simple Python program to track the temps of the fermentors in the chamber that the BrewPi does not monitor. I haven't put this unit in a case yet, so It hangs out on top of the BrewPi case:




This is what the inside of the chamber looks like. The fermentor in the top right corner is monitored by the BrewPi. The other two fermentors are just monitored by the second Arduino:




I would definitely recommend a BrewPi if you are looking at temp controllers. It is a little more money than some of the other options, but the dual temperature probes, graphing, and customizable fermentation profiles make it an excellent choice. Of course, I like to build things so perhaps that colors my recommendation a bit?


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## WI_Wino

Thanks for the deets, very interesting! Gives me some ideas for future projects. 

/threadjack


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## deiswerth

*blueberry wine*

Hey guys, I know this thread is old and long...but tried making the super sugar method with blueberries...started out at 1.152 on 7/30/16, and now on 8/28/16 it is 1.096...should it take this long....? To get down to 1.030- 1.040? Thanks for any advise!


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## wineforfun

No it shouldn't.
Need wayyyyyy more details. Did you use concentrate or fresh blueberries? Type of yeast? Nutrients? 

I just started a batch on 8/23 at SG 1.140 and on 8/28 it was 1.054.


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## deiswerth

Ok sorry, 20# fresh blueberries, 12 drops pectic enzyme, and 2 campden tablets. Smashed berries and let go for 5 days, stirring/crushing some more everyday. Strained out and got almost 6qts juice, add water to 5 gallon and needed 14# sugar to get to 1.152 S.G. also 1/4 tsp k meta. Let go 24 hrs and then add RC212 yeast. It's coming down but slowly, smells and tastes fine....thanks for any help or advice!

Doug


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## wineforfun

Did you add any nutrient to it? If not, that could be part of the problem.


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## deiswerth

yes forgot to say i did add yeast nutrient...


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## Loner

I like the rc212 myself for fruit but with SG that high I would probably use 1118.


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## Johnd

@JohnT 

I know how much you love welch's wine, so thought you'd enjoy this little tidbit. I have so many thoughts and comments, but I'm leaving the door wide open for you.......

https://youtu.be/zfQ0xUt2y1g


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## JohnT

Johnd said:


> @JohnT
> 
> I know how much you love welch's wine, so thought you'd enjoy this little tidbit. I have so many thoughts and comments, but I'm leaving the door wide open for you.......
> 
> https://youtu.be/zfQ0xUt2y1g


 

I just threw up in my mouth a little.. 

My family is Catholic and I am pretty sure that would be a mortal sin!!


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## Johnd

JohnT said:


> I just threw up in my mouth a little..
> 
> My family is Catholic and I am pretty sure that would be a mortal sin!!



Thought you might get a little kick out of that.


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## JohnT

Johnd said:


> Thought you might get a little kick out of that.


 

You all have to admit that I have been trying to be good lately. Watching videos like that sure makes it hard. 

So what exactly would one call that? Hooker Red??


----------



## Johnd

JohnT said:


> You all have to admit that I have been trying to be good lately. Watching videos like that sure makes it hard.
> 
> So what exactly would one call that? Hooker Red??



You have behaved admirably.

Don't know what it should be called, but that's not what I want to see popping out at me when taking the lid off of a 5 gallon bucket with a jug of fermenting liquid in it. 

It's no wonder folks have such a misunderstanding of home winemaking.


----------



## mennyg19

JohnT said:


> You all have to admit that I have been trying to be good lately. Watching videos like that sure makes it hard.
> 
> So what exactly would one call that? Hooker Red??




How disappointing, I was waiting for a real rant from @JohnT...


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## wineforfun

I was sold on that recipe at the Trojan part.


----------



## JohnT

So what happens when you wife comes across them while cleaning??? 

BANG.... ZOOM!


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## robert81650

Turned out great!!!!!!!!!! All my friends want a bottle, so I let them have it.


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## wineforfun

robert81650 said:


> Turned out great!!!!!!!!!! All my friends want a bottle, so I let them have it.



@JohnT will be very happy to hear this.


----------



## Arne

wineforfun said:


> @JohnT will be very happy to hear this.



Egg it on, egg it on. LOL, Arne.


----------



## JohnT

Hey, 

Now that you have the wine, perhaps you could make cheese out of this...





or perhaps some nice salami out of this...







Don't get mad. you asked for it.


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## Country

Can’t let this thread die. 

I came across this recipe late last Fall and decided to give it a try. We sampled a concord wine at a local winery and my wife gave me the go ahead to make a sweet “Welch's” wine. I followed the recipe to a tee and the wine finished at the expected 14%. It was, however, way to sweet for me. I wanted to kick myself for making an un-drinkable wine. I planned to make a much dryer batch to dilute the super sugar with, maybe save it? Anyway, two months after I thought it was was a lost cause, I tasted it. To my complete surprise it was good. What the heck happened in those two months of bulk aging? It is still sweet but not too sweet. It has a bite on the back of the tongue like that from wine tannins or corn syrup. It has a slightly carbonated taste although it is completely de-gassed. It is awesome. When I make it again, I will make it exactly the same. Thank you Jswordy!


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## jayhkr

How long have you all been letting this sit in primary? It's been 2 weeks since I've pitch yeast and my sg is barely dropping from 1.075. It's been 2-3 years since I've made any wine and I don't remember it taking 2 weeks in primary. Temps have been steady around 72 with RC212.


----------



## Country

My last batch had a OG of 1.140 and was down to 1.044 in 6 days. 1.036 after about two weeks. Is it foaming at all?


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## jayhkr

Yeah, that’s the funny part. I know the yeast is still munching away. Lift the lid and there’s a good bit of foam. Stir, and there’s more foam. Just seems as the the sg is taking its old sweet time. I remembered this batch too only taking a week to secondary.


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## Wolfhound

Anyone still making this recipe?


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## Arne

@jswordy We will see if he will reply. He stops in every so often. Arne.


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## flowerlab

Welch's is in Concord, MA (I went to high school there, but never saw it, just heard about it)
A lot of cranberry bogs in that area.


flower-lab.square.site


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