# Pinot Rose' Pyment



## seth8530

Howdy all, this is almost an offshoot of my thread on my grape wine project that should be getting initiated in a few weeks. (might need to get scaled back due to a stolen car) 



What I plan on doing is taking my pressed pinot noir skins and putting that ontop of 5 gallons of water, nutrient, carrot blossom honey mix at around 23 brix. No yeast will be needed because those skins are bound to be loaded with yeast in them.

I plan on using carrot blossom because on my medowfoam carrot blossom mead it has given it an amazing smell. 

Anyways, does anyone have any advice and recommendations on making a rose mead? Has anyone here ever made a "normal rose"?


----------



## robie

I have made a regular rose from Zinfandel grapes. Come to find out, the grapes were loaded with methoxy pyrazine, so the rose ended up good for nothing as was the whole batch of grapes from which it was extracted.

Your experiment should yield a lite rose because of the Pinot Noir skins. The skins should be loaded with yeast as long as they are fresh or have been kept frozen.

Let us know how it turns out.


----------



## SouthernChemist

Out of curiosity, how many pounds of pressed grapes do you think you'll have for this? What strain of yeast will you be using for the grape wine? It sounds like it would be an interesting mead/pyment, especially with the carrot blossom honey.


----------



## fatbloke

I'd just use the grape skins in grape juice Seth, not water.

Then bring the gravity up to whatever you want with honey.....


----------



## seth8530

robie said:


> I have made a regular rose from Zinfandel grapes. Come to find out, the grapes were loaded with methoxy pyrazine, so the rose ended up good for nothing as was the whole batch of grapes from which it was extracted.
> 
> Your experiment should yield a lite rose because of the Pinot Noir skins. The skins should be loaded with yeast as long as they are fresh or have been kept frozen.
> 
> Let us know how it turns out.



Thanks for the input, btw can you explain the methoxy pyrazin issue? The skins will be coming fresh out of my pinot noir so they should be pretty wild with them yeastie beasties. BTW, why do you think it will be on the lighter side? ( My first time working with skins)



SouthernChemist said:


> Out of curiosity, how many pounds of pressed grapes do you think you'll have for this? What strain of yeast will you be using for the grape wine? It sounds like it would be an interesting mead/pyment, especially with the carrot blossom honey.



I should have anywhere between 50-100lbs of pinot skins depending on how many gallons of pinot noir I actually end up making. I plan on doing 12 gallons but this could change depending on the actual cost of the grapes. Also, it could be less if it ends up costing way too much to ship refrigerated grapes and I use frozen must instead which have less skins on them. 

Do you have any experience with carrot blossom? The only time I have used it I really loved the aroma on it.

Yeast:



> Enoferm AMH.
> 
> Quote:
> Originating from the Geisenheim Research Institute, Enoferm AMH™ is a favorite for making Riesling, Pinot
> noir and Zinfandel. It is considered a color-friendly yeast that enhances spicy (clove, nutmeg) and fruit flavors
> and aromas while adding positive, smooth mouthfeel to the overall complexity. AMH™ has a long lag phase
> and a slow to medium fermentation rate. Therefore, a well-managed nutrient program during rehydration and
> fermentation is essential. Good ferment domination is obtained with AMH™ if the culture is allowed to develop
> in about 10% of the total must volume for 8 hours before final inoculation. Very malolactic bacteria compatible.
> It is cassified as a Saccharomyces kudriavzevii





fatbloke said:


> I'd just use the grape skins in grape juice Seth, not water.
> 
> Then bring the gravity up to whatever you want with honey.....



Well, two issues exist against that in my particular case. Number one is that i will be using the grape juice from the skins to make pinot noir and chard with. The second being I want this to be more about the honey and less about the grape from a total fermentables perspective. 

However, I will admit I have never made a pyment before... I am kind of going for something that is like... " Hey this is a mead, but its sorta like a rose!" kind of deal.

BTW, have you had the opportunity to make some pyments before? Just wondering because they tend to be a little less popular than some other meads in the mazing community.


----------



## SouthernChemist

I have never seen carrot blossom honey before, but I'm always interested in the subtle differences that can exist in honey from different sources. I've also never made a pyment before, either, but I would think you would want a honey that would allow the grape aspect of things to shine through a little bit. Sort of how people make cysers with lighter, softer honey so the apple flavors are not drowned out. I would expect that the skins will add something beyond a little color. Either way, it should be interesting to see how it turns out


----------



## seth8530

Their is certainly more than one way to do it and honey choice has everything to do with what you are going for. I am more after a honey forward and aroma centered mead that is more accented by the grape. So, that is what I am shooting for..

If you want to get an idea of the differences between types try a meadowfoam and a buckwheat or perhaps a carrot blossom. I was certinly amazed in the flavour diferecnes..

These guys have a sample pack they sell... Really great outfit btw!

http://www.flyingbeeranch.net/


----------



## SouthernChemist

Definitely sounds interesting. Speaking of other kinds of honey...my father has gotten into keeping honey bees at our family's farm in the past year, and he's just about ready to harvest his first real batch of honey from the bees. It's not single source honey, but it will be interesting to see how the honey turns out.


----------



## seth8530

Just ordered 36 lbs of white sage honey. I have never tasted this type of honey before, hopefully it will turn out alright.


----------



## seth8530

Well, I got the honey in the mail today and it is amazing. Very interesting smell that is hard to describe, but this honey is a winner. If any of yall have a chance to try White Sage honey I highly recommend it.


----------



## seth8530

The time is nearing for this guys birth... The chardonnay is almost done fermenting. Once that is complete I will make around 12 gallons of honey water mixture at around 1.090. Then, I will add in around 6 gallons of my bagged and frozen pinot noir skins. Once it heats up the yeast left on the skins should get this show started pretty quick. I will do a nutrient schedule assuming initial YAN is at 30 mg/l. and I will aim for 320 mg/l


----------



## seth8530

Alright, starting the ferment tonight.

PLAN!!

Add 14.5 Kg of honey into 12 gallons of water and shoot for a gravity of around 1.095.

Add 14.7 grams of go ferm straight into the must to provide vitamens which Fermaid O will not provide ( this is the dosing used to re hydrate yeast)

Add the 150 mg/l YAN ( DAP equiv) via fermaid O Ie 142 grams of fermaid O into the 12 gallons. This assumes that fermaid O is 33% more efficient than DAP

Add in as many pinot noir skins into the must as I possibly can via grape stockings.. Hopefully all of them

Nutrient Schedule

1.081 Add 23 grams Fermaid O

1.067 Add 23 grams Fermaid O

1.053 Add 23 grams Fermaid O

1.039 Add 23 grams Fermaid O

1.025 Add 23 grams Fermaid O

Other additives

*At onset of fermentation add in 24.5 grams of opti white ie .5g/L *


Opti-White® is a specific inactivated yeast with high antioxidant properties. Its application in white wines is
patent pending. Using Opti-White® on the juice at the beginning of fermentation results in smoothness and
greater aromatic complexity in white wines. As its unique properties protect against oxidation of phenols and
aromas, Opti-White® contributes to better color preservation and the aromatic freshness of white wines. Yeast
cell wall components from Opti-White® will be solubilized during fermentation and aging. These polysaccharides
will have a very positive impact, bringing more roundness and smoothness to the wine. Their action will
enhance the benefits of autolysis following alcoholic fermentation.
Dosage recommendations: Add Opti-White® to the juice at 30-50 g/hL (2.4-4 lb/1000 gal) for smoothness,
antioxidative color protection and aromatic freshness. Add Opti-White® towards the end of fermentation at
20-30 g/hL (1.6-2.4 lb/1000 gal) for smoothness and better integration of wood and alcohol.

*At 1.025 add in .3g/L booster rouge ie 14.7 grams*

Booster Rouge® originates from a specific natural wine yeast isolated and selected by the ICV. The yeast
macromolecules in Booster Rouge® interact with red wine polyphenols resulting in a positive influence on the
colloidal balance of the wine. Especially when used in red must sourced from hot climates, Booster Rouge®
wines are perceived as having higher fore-mouth volume and smoother mid-palate tannic intensity, as well
as fresher aromatic sensations.
Booster Rouge® compliments short maceration premium reds fermented with Lalvin ICV GRE™ for smooth
mid-palate intensity and fresh varietal aromas, while avoiding sensations of aggressive and drying tannins.
In ultra-premium reds from balanced ripe mature grapes, Booster Rouge® shows good synergy with Lalvin ICV
D80® and Lalvin ICV D21™ for enhancing licorice aromas and smooth mid-palate intensity. Booster Rouge®
may also be added towards the end of fermentation to contribute fore-mouth volume, smoother mid-palate
tannin intensity and help with alcohol integration.
Dosage recommendation: Add Booster Rouge® to the must at 227 g/ton (0.5 lb/ton) or 30 g/hL (2.4
lb/1000 gal) towards the end of fermentation.

Oak

around 6 ounces of french oak spirals Med+


----------



## seth8530

Just got this bad boy started, SG corrected for temperature is 1.086. I expect that the gravity will creep up a little bit by tomorrow morning however, since I was aiming for 1.090 I consider myself close enough to my mark. Got the initial fermaid/ go ferm boost added to the must along with optiwhite. I will wait on the oak untill secondary. The white sage honey smells and taste a lot like chocolate. The pinot noir skins themselves smell a lot like chocolate. I expect this shall be an interesting batch. I managed to get all but 3 of my gallon bags of skins in.. So I am estimating that their is somewhere between 5 and 6 gallons of skins in their inside of fermentation bags along with 13 ish gallons of honey water mixture. 

Hopefully this guy will not overflow.


----------



## Deezil

It'll be exciting to see how this one turns out

Why the go-ferm in the batch, instead of per-instructions?
Just because honey lacks in nutrients?


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, I am pretty excited too. I am afraid I will need to throw away all pretenses of this batch turning out like a rose' but oh well.

I used the go-ferm in the batch to add nutrient that the fermaid O lacks. I would of used it during rehydration but my skins are already so laden with yeast I figured it would be pointless to try and compete with that. If I knew exactly what was in the go-ferm and how much I could add to the batch and still be safe I would actually consider using it as a nutrient supplement for fermaid O. However, if I had been using fermaid K I would not of bothered, but I figured since I would try and do this in the spirit of an all ammino nitrogen batch.

I have the whole batch temperature controlled to 55 degrees F so I think this might be a fun one!


----------



## seth8530

Decided this morning to add in an extra quart of honey since the gravity was reading 1.080 at calibration temp. Fermentation does not look like it is on going so I believe it is safe to assume the gravity was reading true. I estimate my volume to be somewhere between 49 and 55 L meaning the addition will add around 5-7 points to gravity.

Thus adjust starting gravity is now 1.085 or 1.087. I am hoping hard for a fermentation all the way down to .992


----------



## SouthernChemist

You should take a picture for us!


----------



## seth8530

Alright pictures via popular demand!! But first an update! Mead gravity is currently at 1.086 which is quite close to what I predicted. There was a bit of residual honey left on the bottom but I took care of that ( Photo included). It smells and taste like straight up chocolate. I feel like the white sage in combo with the pinot noir is really playing that out a lot.

I also added in 2 medium French wine sticks into the must. Still no major signs of fermentatoin. I bumped the temp up to 58F to help facilitate fermentation.


----------



## WI_Wino

Is that an elliptical shaped bucket? Or did you bend it to make it fit?


----------



## seth8530

It was a round 20 gallon bucket that I forced into the freezer thus forcing the shape to become elliptical. Right now it can hold a little bit over 15 gallons because I had to squish the bucket to make it fit.


----------



## seth8530

Added 23 grams of fermaid O at 1.084 instead of 1.081 since it appeared fermentation was starting to get moving and I did not want to miss my mark.


----------



## seth8530

Got home from late from an American Nuclear Society meeting tonight. Got home checked the mead. The fermentation bags and the oak is all floating at the top. Stirred it up to get some air in, got a nice bunch of CO2 coming out. Fermentation has finally started in full. On seeing this, I turned the temperature down from 58F down to 55F ( min temperature of the yeast).

Gravity was around 1.080.


----------



## seth8530

After reading up on the technical data sheet turns out the yeast is tolerant to 10C.. Thus, I am cranking the temp on down to 51F


----------



## seth8530

Temperature is now at 51F Gravity sitting at 1.072


----------



## seth8530

Fermentation is going on quite nicely. I am considering removing some of the grape skins and putting some fresh skins in to get a little bit more colour.. However, here is a picture of the mead as is.


----------



## Deezil

I'd be inclined to leave it where it is and let it clear

Freeze those skins with some k-meta in a bag with a much air as you can squeeze out though, in case you want to add them post-clearing if theres not enough color


----------



## seth8530

So you are of the line of thought that as of right now the colour is spot on and any extra colour would be a little much? Thus leave the excess skins incase I want more colour later?


----------



## Deezil

I'm of the line of thinking that you can always add more color if you save the skins but it's harder to take it out

It could be spot-on, it could be close, it could be waaay off.. I've never made a Rose, but waiting til it clears would allow you to put the extra skins in a straining bag & remove them when the color is more to your liking, provided you even need to add them at all

Hope that makes sense lol been moving furniture all day & I'm a tad exhausted


----------



## seth8530

Ahh, I see what you are saying. From a colour point of view it makes perfect since. But as this point in time I more along the line of thinking where I do not care way too much about the colour as I do getting whatever kind of flavour I can get out of the skins. However, from a colour perspective your advice makes perfect sense.


----------



## fatbloke

seth8530 said:


> Ahh, I see what you are saying. From a colour point of view it makes perfect since. But as this point in time I more along the line of thinking where I do not care way too much about the colour as I do getting whatever kind of flavour I can get out of the skins. However, from a colour perspective your advice makes perfect sense.


so just keep stirring the batch gently, on a daily basis and then leave them until they sink......


----------



## seth8530

fatbloke said:


> so just keep stirring the batch gently, on a daily basis and then leave them until they sink......



What would be wrong with taking some of the extra skins I have in the freezer and replacing some of the used skins with the " fresh" skins? Are you afraid it will throw my colour off? Or you just kind of saying I should sit and wait and see what happens for now?


----------



## seth8530

Made an addition at 1.050.


----------



## SouthernChemist

I don't really think color is an issue. If you're satisfied, that's all that matters. My question would be how does it taste so far? Are you able to tell how the skins are impacting the flavor (it may be too sweet to tell)? Might be a better question in the last third of fermentation.


----------



## seth8530

Hmm, as far as taste. It is getting a fruitiness from the pinot noir grapes and a lot of chocolate flavour from the honey plus a little bit of chocolate from the noir as well. But all in all, it is a little bit hard to tell at this point. I think I will go ahead and refresh some of the grapes in the mead tonight once I get done writing my essay for Russian Lit.

I am also in the camp where colour is completely secondary to flavour, which is rather misleading since I labeled this thread as a Rose mead.....


----------



## seth8530

Added in a nutrient addition at 1.038 an hour ago. Also, took out a couple bags of grapes and replaced them with "fresh" grapes. I hope that this guy will hit the last nutrient point before I have to leave for Thanksgiving.


----------



## seth8530

Gravity was at 1.026 this morning so I went ahead and made the last additions. Unfortunately, I only had 13 grams of fermaid O left instead of 23... But I made the full addition of booster rouge at 14 grams. My bet is that it will work out just fine since the booster rouge, and opti white both come from yeast hulls... So those guys will no doubt give us a contribution albeit subtle.. Plus, I would not be surprised if those grape skins still had some YAN left in them from the pinot noir ferment. 

Now the question is... Should I go ahead and pull the skins since I wont be able to stir them again until Saturday evening? Or do you think they will be able to survive 60 hours of not being stirred if they are inside of semi submerged fermentation bags.


----------



## seth8530

checked the mead today, grapes were still wet. gravity was sitting at 1.010


----------



## SouthernChemist

Almost there then!


----------



## seth8530

Yep, almost! Gonna have to check the gravity tomorrow to make sure it is still moving.. If not I will bump the temp on up to 60 F


----------



## seth8530

Well, seems like this guy is still chuggin on along. Checked the gravity and it was sitting at 1.004. I plan on getting her racked tomorrow!


----------



## seth8530

Racked the pinot mead at 1.002 and added 5 grams of opti malo plus nutrient and the proper amount of MBR 31 bacteria. Also! Pictures are included of the wine hoard!


----------



## SouthernChemist

Very nice! I have to admit that I am jealous of your wine hoard. Looks like the color turned out nice on the pyment, as well. Never thought about doing MLF on a mead before.


----------



## seth8530

Ha, I am kind of jealous of it myself lol, one thing to take into consideration is that this here is my total wine supply that is not in bottle.. However, all but the strawberry, and two of the meads were made this fall.

I think the colour on the pyment is turning out quite well myself ;however, we will be able to get a better idea how its going to look once the sediment starts dropping out... That should be fun. I nearly consider MLF to be a necissity on anything fermented with grapes from a stabilization point of view.. Plus, I really like a little bit of a buttery taste in some of my wines. I am really excited to see how these guys will end up turning out. 

I managed to get a sip from the pinot noir and I can say I am quite pleased, it shows every indication that it will turn out to be quite the respectable little wine.


----------



## seth8530

The colour is almost a light phenolphthalein fuchsia colour. The oak started to become the main flavour so we racked it off the oak. The honey does not seem to come through very much at all which surprises me to a rather large degree. However, I have never had a second running made with just sugar so I can not quite compare it. Still kind of hot tasting, and the after taste is watery. When the time comes I will need to adjust the acid on this one.

The gravity has managed to make its way down to .994 so it looks like I hit my ABV target after all!


----------



## seth8530

Just a small update, added 3 grams per gallon of uva tan (grape skin tannin) per each 6 gallon carboy of pinot meado rose. We also added 80 grams of tartaric acid to each of the roses since the TA was reading 3 g/l. We are hoping that this will bring us to around 6.5 grams/liter TA. I am trying to create a rather unique wine here. Borrowing a lot of the body and character from pinot noir and grapes whenever possible but also being mead like and delicate.

I am hoping that these additions will make it taste a little less watery.


----------



## Deezil

I've wanted to try this sort of technique on other flavors; I'm curious to see what you find with MLFing the acidity down and then re-adjusting back up with tartaric.. 

The flavor that comes to mind, for me, is the Apple-Pear Bochet; were it MLF'd and then tartaric-balanced, I wonder if you could get both the body from the MLF and not lose a bright-apple flavor

Interested also in seeing what this latest addition does to that 'watery' sensation, because I've found that on a few flavors as well.

Thanks for the update


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, it should be interesting. The reason why I used a tartaric addition was because I used second running grapes to make the rose so I figured what they really needed was some more grape. I used the same logic for adding the grape skin tannins.

As far as adding back acid that is taken away from MLF I feel like it could be worth doing especially if you are mainly after the flavours created my MLF and not so much after the acid reduction. In the case of an apple botchet however, I would be tempted to add back malic acid since that is the primary apple acid. I am not quite sure why but I have heard artificial malic acid additions will not feed ML bacteria. I say it would be a very fun technique to experiment around with.

The watery sensation has subsided a bit, but it is still very much there. I agree that it will be quite interesting to see how that changes after the tannins and acid have some time to integrate. As far as I know most Roses wines are dry so I would rather not have to balance the lack of body with residual honey additions.

However, this wine is already a bastard wine so maybe trying to adhere to any preconceived notions of style might be moot...


----------



## SouthernChemist

I wouldn't be afraid to sweeten it just a little. Rose style wines can be anywhere from sweet to dry, but my experience has been that it is really dependent on the quality of the grapes used. I've had some dry rose wines that were fantastic (the Tavel AOC in France only makes rose wines from Grenache, Syrah, Cinsault, and Mourvedre). I've also had some that had no reason being dry and just screamed for at least a little sweetness (a rose from Cabernet Sauvignon...which sounded a lot nicer than it tasted). Some rose wines are just byproducts of winemakers trying to make more concentrated red wines. 

I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if a little honey or sugar addition wouldn't improve things a little. 

Do you have a recent picture of this wine?


----------



## seth8530

Hmm, that sounds like some good advice. I will post some pictures the next time I rack the wine... But its got this kind of cool pinkish fushia colour going on.


----------



## byathread

As a lover of dry and off-dry roses (particularly those from Provence and Spain), I've enjoyed reading about this adventurous brew. If you decide to do another rose (or rose mead) this fall, you might consider using the saignee method, where you siphon off 10-30% of your red must after a short contact time on the skins (typically 12-24 hrs) for your rose and leave the remaining must "bulked up" with extra skins. Some would think new oak undesirable in a rose as it may mask some of the fruitiness. Also, ScottLabs makes several products that may be of use for making roses such as Opti-White, Booster Blanc and Tannin Blanc Soft.

I'm interested to see how your "recycled" Pinot Rose mead works out!


----------



## seth8530

That would not be a horrible idea for making a rose. I am not sure if my temperature control space would allow for it, but it is definitely an idea. Indeed, I have began making use of the products you have mentioned. I believe that booster rouge was an excellent addition to my cranberry mead.


----------



## SouthernChemist

seth8530 said:


> That would not be a horrible idea for making a rose. I am not sure if my temperature control space would allow for it, but it is definitely an idea. Indeed, I have began making use of the products you have mentioned. I believe that booster rouge was an excellent addition to my cranberry mead.



The sanguee method would be something worth experimenting with if you have the time/grapes. I'm by no means an expert, but I wonder how many people out there are applying rose-making techniques to pyments. 

And booster rouge/blanc are good products to use!


----------



## byathread

SouthernChemist said:


> And booster rouge/blanc are good products to use!



I used booster blanc, tannin blanc soft (formerly tannin galalcool) and opti-white for several years in my meads and ciders, and more recently booster rouge/blanc in my kit wines to great success. I've had nothing but good experience with Scott Labs products.


----------



## Hunt

I'm gonna show just how new I am with this question but what is a rose. And don't go telling me it's a flower lol.


----------



## sour_grapes

Hunt said:


> I'm gonna show just how new I am with this question but what is a rose. And don't go telling me it's a flower lol.



Generally, we mean a rosé wine, but doing the accent on the "e" is a pain. This is a wine with some of the red color from the skins of the grapes, but not as much of it as a full-blooded red wine. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosé

A better question for this thread would have been "what is a Pyment?"


----------



## Hunt

Ok I understand. Do you use wine grapes or what. I want to learn things so I can be a grown up Wine maker like you all


----------



## seth8530

Ha, well their is only one place to start... Typically when making a pyment you want to use wine grapes or at the very least some good quality juice depnding on what you are after and what you want to showcase.


----------



## Hunt

What is a pymemt


----------



## seth8530

Hunt said:


> What is a pymemt



"A better question for this thread would have been "what is a Pyment?""

check out sourgrapes post and click on pyment in his post. It will link you to the definition along with some nice traits.


----------



## SouthernChemist

Hunt said:


> What is a pymemt



A pyment is a mead made with grapes (either red or white) added. Much like a cyser is a mead made with apple juice or a melomel is a mead made with fruit. That's one thing about making mead - honey is very compatible with other things. Wine grapes would be the most appropriate, though there's nothing to stop you from using other grapes. I've personally never had a pyment or met someone who has made one, which is why this thread has been interesting to follow!

And another way to think of a rose style wine is that it is basically a white wine from red grapes. Some can be so light in color you might mistake them for a white.

I do like the idea of bleeding off some juice from Pinot Noir grapes and using that for a second pyment. It definitely would make for a more concentrated Pinot wine, too.


----------



## byathread

Pink wine!!
Certainly more like a white in flavor and structure but with a pretty pinkish color from being made with red grapes. Though you can typically make a full on white wine from red grapes by giving it no skin contact time (blanc de noirs), though as I understand it, this is best if picked in a cool vintage or slightly earlier than the same grapes when used for a red.


----------



## seth8530

So, I decided I would bring this over here from my other thread. All in all it looks like this will turn out quite good in the end. It is just a matter of figuring out where I want to take it. I currently see two different paths to take. It appears I can either reduce the acid to balance the wine out or perhaps I could add a little bit of honey back to it to cover the acid. I am leaning more towards reducing the acid since I do not really want to have in my mind what I would call a candy like wine.

Even though it is off balance right now I still have a lot of hope for it. It seems to me the difference between making good wine and great wine is mostly in the fine tuning you do at the end.





*Aroma*
Smokey
Not Very Floral
Clear honey scent but not really a floral one. Think sort of a fresh hot honey smell. This is not an extremely strong scent but it is there.
Unsweet perfume ( GF says it reminds her of odile)

*Taste*
Fruity
Tanic
Slightly too acidic for the flavour profile that I am after but I will give it more time before I go messing around with it. Possible solutions include the addition of a base or possibly making the rose slightly sweet.
Candy Like. Most likely a result of the acid being out of place combined with the honey flavours and fruity stuff from the grape skins.


----------



## SouthernChemist

That's a very nice color! Have you measured the TA/pH of the pyment?


----------



## seth8530

Thanks! I happen to agree, earlier it was more of a fushia, but I think this is the colour it is going to stick to for now lol. I do not have one written down, but I plan on re testing it this fall with an SC 300... It will cost a pretty penny, but I think in the long run it will save me some money on test kits and reagents. Plus one tool that can do PH,TA,So2 and even MLF progress ( with an add on) seems pretty wicked to me.

https://vinmetrica.com/product/vinmetricas-sc-300-sulfite-and-phta-wine-analyzer/


----------



## SouthernChemist

It would be nice to have one of those. Perhaps one day!


----------



## seth8530

Just got done testing PH and TA on the Rose. Over all, I think it is pretty close to where I want it. One thing I noticed was that on the nose it has a kind of inviting smokey, fruity floral aroma. The taste, has potential, it is currently acid forward so I feel like instead of balancing by reducing the acid I will add some honey to it. I think that could also help make up for the lighter body.

Pinot Rose ( mead 2nd run) PH= 3.3 TA= 5.6 g/l


----------



## seth8530

So, yesterday we did a lot of work in the wineroom... a LOT.... one of the things we did besides racking around 35 gallons of cider, 15 gallons of sparkling wine blend, 15 gallons of funk mead and bottling 5 gallons of beer was to rack and back sweeten the rose. The initial gravity was around .998-.999. To it, we added around 600 grams of honey ( 300 ish grams) and around 300 grams of coconut and normal table sugar to backsweeten the whole 11 gallon batch. I planned this to bring the gravity up to around 1.003-1.004. 

The sugar nicely balanced out the acidity of the rose, but did not leave it too sweet. It is kind of grape forward, but with nice honey aroma and taste. I would have written down better tasting notes, but it was a better day... However, thinking about things... I am going to add some lyzomes to it in case their are any MLB kicking around in it.


----------



## chasemandingo

Seth please explain the lyzomes as I was under the impression that ML bacteria can not be used with sorbate under any conditions. However, I remember you say that a lyzome addition will remedy this. However, a Google search yielded little results.


----------



## seth8530

If you are concerned about MLB and sorbate, you can kill or seriously degrade the viability of MLB by using lyzosomes. Thus, greatly reducing the chance that the MLB will eat the sorbate and create off flavors. You can improve on this by cold crashing and sterile filtering.


----------



## chasemandingo

True on the sterile filtering. However, I was under the impression that a .3 micron filter (i think this is the required size) is so fine that it can strip both color and flavor/aroma compounds out of the wine. Is this true?


----------



## seth8530

I have heard conflicting information about that claim. Something tells me though, that it if major commercial wineries are doing this practice, that it most likely is not way too determintal to the wine.


----------



## chasemandingo

Perhaps an experiment is in order. A single batch of red wine half of which should be sterile filtered and the other half through a 5 micron filter. Bottle and label both and after an appropriate time in the bottle both could be compared. I don't have filtering capabilities as of yet. So it is on someone else to complete this noble task! lol


----------



## seth8530

Lol yeah. Perhaps someone other than me too lol. Actually, I will likely be sterile filtering some cider, so I might give that a go.


----------



## sour_grapes

On the molecular scale, 0.3 micron is HUGE.



sour_grapes said:


> Not bad, but not dramatic enough. If the "flavor molecules" are the size of a ping pong ball, the gaps in the filter would be more like the distance BETWEEN THE SOCCER GOALS (on opposite ends of the soccer pitch).


----------



## seth8530

Good point,

I had clearing issues with my last mead that I made where stuff would decide to drop out on its own in the bottles. So, in addition to filtering I will add 15-16 grams of bentointe per 5-6 gallon carboy to help it clear out.


----------



## seth8530

So, I added the betoninte, and checked the SO2. It was around 3 ppm ( ive been lazy) so I went ahead and added 50 ppm of sulfite to hopefully keep this guy stable until I get un lazy enough to check the SO2 again.


----------



## seth8530

So, yesterday we had a good oll bottling party. I decided to go ahead and lay superklear on top of the bentonite to give me a good surface to rack from. Then, I let it sit in a deep freezer at around 33F for around a week before gravity racking, sterile filtering and then finally bottling. 

With my two helpers we were able to get a yield of around 8 gallons out of two 5 gallon carboys in around 3 and a half hours setup and cleanup included. So, not too bad as fat as bottling days go.

We did a side by side of the gravity racked and the filtered and they turned out to be about the same as far as clarity goes. However, it did seem to be slightly clearer. However, the taste was definitely different, and in a better way. Perhaps some of those grape seed tannins I added in earlier got filtered out.. Or, I could just be full of it.. Not sure.. Either way, it was a success. I plan on sending this guy off the the mazers cup international. I will be sure to post the score cards good or bad.


----------



## seth8530

So, this guy did not end up placing at the MCI, however I am still eagerly awaiting the score card. I wonder if perhaps the grape flavor was not strong enough for what they were looking for in the pyment category. They gave good feedback last year, so I look forward to seeing what they have to say this year!


----------

