# Filling in 3/5ths of my 2.5 acres come check it



## pwrose (May 7, 2010)

Well lets try this post one more time. Last two times it didn't show up.

I will be filling in 1.5 acres of my 2.5 acres with fruit trees, berry bushes and vines, and grape vines. So along with this much work comes questions that people that have worked with some of the plants that I will be using could help answer. First here is the list of what is going in,,,,,

Trees: there will only be 1 of each unless otherwise noted.

Moniqui Apricot
Plumcot Apricot

Red Haven Peach (2)
Elberta Peach

Morris Plum (2)

Black Tartarian Cherry (2)
Stella Sweet Cherry

Bachuus Noir Black Mulberry

Tennessee Mountain Fig (this one might get changed to a different type)

Vines:
Merlot (10)
Zinfandel (10)
Red Seedless (5)
Blackberry (20) which half will be thornless and the other half normal

Bushes:
Blueberry (20+) I already have 17 in the ground now
Black Raspberry (10+) I think I have a type that will actually survive in these parts


So here go the questions:

With the grapes, knowing that all these trees will be planted in the same area which side of the trees should the grapes be on, north, south, east, or west?

What do you think the best trellis system would be for these?

How about the trees, I know that they will not be planted until late fall, but is there any opinions that would differ from the norm as far as when to plant them?

Along those same lines is there anything special that you (opinion) would do special for any one of the trees?

How do you think the best layout for the trees would be,,, like
a.) peach, apricot, plum, cherry, and so on (dividing different types and spreading them out over the whole area.
OR
b.) peach, peach, peach, apricot, apricot, plum and so on. (Grouping likes together


I don't have any pics of the vacant area yet, but as I start to put things into place I will take some pics and start to update this thread with them.

So givem to me opinions and commits,, also if you feel the need to recommend another fruit to add to this collection please speak up,,, something to keep in mind I don't want any citrus, pear, or apples.


PW


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## djrockinsteve (May 7, 2010)

Trees, even semi dwarfs will shade a lot. Until the sun shifts a bit more the lower part of my garden is shaded now. Lettuce is slowly coming in.

Grapes will need full sun and I believe they are usually planted on the north side of a hill. Trellis or staked up would depend upon what your intentions. Do you want a lot of grapes of average quality or fewer but superior quality.

You got your work cut out for you. Good Luck!


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## deboard (May 7, 2010)

Sounds great! And a lot of work, so good luck! Some nice wine possibilities in there.


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## pwrose (May 7, 2010)

For my grapes I think I would rather have the fewer with superior quality than to have more with average quality.

The shape of the area that will be planted is kinda triangled shaped with the point of the triangle being more rounded. The east side is about 400 feet long the west side is about 450 feet long and the north side is close to 300 feet. The east side is open for the most part, meaning no trees to shade the morning sun. The west side is a very thin wood line that the sun shines through in the evening and the trees there are not all that tall so the evening sun hits a good part of the land until late late evening. The house sits on the north side but about 100 feet up from the yard that will be planted. The south end of the yard is where the point of the triangle is and it is bordered by a creek.

I will see about getting a picture of it over the weekend, or at least do up a drawing to upload. All of this planting has been in the works for about a year but time and money has not allowed us to do it yet. Now that retirement is at the end of this year finally all money is in order its time to start planting.

I almost a l m o s t, bought 8 black berry vines tonight at wallyworld, but thought twice of it. I think that I want to get something with a better know genetic background. That isn't saying that they would have been bad ones, but there isn't any info on the quality of the berries that come off those vines.

For now I am waiting on the wife to decide what she wants first, and for the vines I need to get the trellises put up anyways.

PW


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## pwrose (May 9, 2010)

Well as promised here are some pics of the yard to be planted.

This is probably the best look at the yard, it is from the front corner looking in a southwest direction. You can see the ditch line in the left side of the picture that is really the only straight line in the yard.







This picture is from the back corner of the yard, it is straight up the driveway or as close to straight up as the driveway allows. It is looking in a southeast direction.






And here is a picture looking due south, you can see where the creek is at the end of the yard. That is where the point of the triangle is.






Now you can see what I have to work with what are your suggestions for a layout. These picture were taken around 5pm and you can start to see the shadows of the trees down by the bees. The sun comes up and covers the yard almost all day, and the longer the summers get and the higher the sun gets in the sky the more this yard gets light. Late fall and winter are the only times it doesn't get that much light, well at least until the trees drop there leaves then it gets a little. But really by that time nothing is going to be needing that much sun anyways.

PW


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## Larryh86GT (May 9, 2010)

How do red raspberries like maybe Heritage do in your part of the country? They make a very nice wine. The biggest problem might be controlling them from expanding too much.

Larry


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## pwrose (May 9, 2010)

I dont know about raspberries yet, I am still waiting for the AG extension to get back to me about things that might not be allowed and things that will survive here. I hope that there is a variety that does because I love raspberries, although I prefer the black ones over the red ones.

After the AG extension get back in touch with me I will revise my planned list to add a few things that were not on the first list.

PW


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## DesertDance (May 10, 2010)

*Better wine from struggling vines*



pwrose said:


> For my grapes I think I would rather have the fewer with superior quality than to have more with average quality.
> PW



I am sorry, but I disagree. Grapes that are stressed (planted close and struggle) produce better wine than those that have free rein. Did you want a ton of jug wine? So then, space them few and far between. Did you want a few bottles of the best? Make them struggle!!

Google "High Density Vineyard planting", and you will understand.

Suzi


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## sly22guy (May 10, 2010)

in the first pic is that the southern tip of your area? if so i would plant the grapes in diagonal rows running back along the row of bushes or whatever on the left side of the pic. I planted my rows east to west on a southern facing slope with 8-10 ft between rows and 6 ft between vines they will get sun all day long.


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## pwrose (May 10, 2010)

If you follow the left side of the first pic towards the woods line that would be the most southern point of the property. You can see it best in the last pic by following the lawnmower tracks all the way to the wood line.

As far as high density vineyard planting goes, I am still reading up on that but it looks like it is still undecided on some of the techniques. Some are saying not to plant in a east to west row but rather in a north to south row, and better yet a northeast to southwest row. There also seems to be some question on the type of grape being grown as well, some do better at 1 meter intervals while other are at 6' intervals. Theres is alot of info to take in on this method. I don't think I am quite ready for the advanced methods just yet. However I am still going to read up on them I have until next spring before any go in the ground so there is plenty of time to learn and decide on which way will work best for me.

I did find out some info on the currents and tack on gooseberries there as well. Like Mud said in the 2010 growing season thread, my state has a ban on them because of the white pine blister rust. So the curents are out for now, maybe one day. The raspberries are still in question due to soil and weather requirements. I am sure that there is a variety that will grow here just have to find out which ones. The lady at the AG office was out today but I am supposed to call her back again in the morning. I will also be finding out about the type of grapes that I want to grow and what I will be needing to do to the soil. She said she would come out and help me get everything set up as well. It is great to have her secratary living right in front of me and her daughter being my daughters best friend. Luck of the draw,,, LOL

PW


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## pwrose (May 25, 2010)

*The ones that will work*

Well I finally got an answer back from my ag office.

*Grapes that will do ok in my area are*
Alwood
*Catawba*
Cabernet-Sauvignon
Chambourcin
Chardonnay
Concord
*Delaware*
Fredonia
Himrod
Lakemont
Leon-Millot
Moored
Niagara
Seyval
Suffolk Red
Venus

Red = For wine
Red and Bold = For Juice and wine

*Here are the Raspberries that do ok*
Red Raspberry Southland U. Pied.
Dormanred
Heritage Pied.
Black Raspberry Allen
Bristol
Cumberland
Purple Raspberry Royalty


Now I will rely on the the wine makers to pick which they think I sould plant.


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## Larryh86GT (May 25, 2010)

I'm not an expert on these but I do have a 20' row of Heritage red raspberries. I planted them 3 years ago. Last years 2nd crop in the late summer tired me out from picking them. We ate as many as we could and froze about 14 lbs or so that I made into 4 - 1 gal batches of very good wine. Right now the brambles stand as tall as me and look like I am going to get a lot of berries on the 1st crop of the year. 
Good luck on your choices. It is time to get things planted before it gets too hot and dry.

Larry


edited to add:
RASPBERRIES IN THE HOME GARDEN

In the case of specialty or non-traditional small fruit crops, red raspberries get the most interest and coverage by newspapers and popular press. Red raspberries developed in northern United States and southern Canada have difficulty in hot summer climates. The raspberry 'floricanes' are especially prone to winter freeze injury where temperatures fluctuate in January and February by as much as 40-50 F in a given 24 hr period. Dormanred and Southland are red raspberries with southern adaptation and both show promise where "northern" raspberries do not survive. Heritage, the "everbearing" variety, is a possibility for the home garden, but it is disease susceptible. Red raspberries have erect canes with the exception of the variety Dormanred that is trailing. 

Black raspberries or "blackcaps" tolerate higher summer temperatures and are adapted to a wider area than red raspberries, but are susceptible to several serious disease problems including anthracnose, crown gall, orange rust, and virus diseases. Black raspberries have arched canes. 

Purple raspberries are hybrids of red raspberries and blackcaps. They have the same growth characteristics as blackcaps. They are presently grown, though the area they are adapted to is about the same as for the blackcaps. 

Some raspberries have yellow fruit. Yellow raspberries are variations of red raspberries, and except for fruit color, have all the characteristics of red raspberries. They are grown chiefly by homeowners in northern states.


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## Runningwolf (May 25, 2010)

Larry, your plants are looking pretty healthy there.


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## DesertDance (May 25, 2010)

I am not qualified to comment because I live where it rarely gets a day of freeze, but I have tasted wine in West Chicago, and that Chamborcin was impressive!! California grown Cabernet is also fine, and I understand that Chardonnay needs cooler temps, and Chardonnay is a beautiful white wine! Cabernet Sauvignon clone 08 is adapted to heat, and that one is grown here, but there must be others more suited to your area.

Those raspberries look amazing!! We can't grow them here. Larry is right. They don't like heat, so I'm resigned to paying a fortune for fresh or getting them frozen. You just can't have it all!!

Good luck planting your vines. Keep us posted as to what you chose!
Suzi


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## Racer (May 25, 2010)

Here's a chart to look at to help you in your decision on what you'd like to plant. Make a couple of road trips and taste some wines made from some of the grapes on that list your ag extension sent you. Do keep in mind that vinifera grapes are really wimpy and don't have any resistance against most all the disease's that are present (and will attack vines you do plant where your at). So learn as much as you can to help you grow vines as disease free as possible.


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## pwrose (May 25, 2010)

Racer thanks for the chart, There are a couple of places around here that make wine but all of them are from muscadines or scuppernog grapes. Not to mention they use sulfites like everyone here uses. I can't use sulfites, any more than the natural amount found in the fruit fermentation and I get the worst head ache, I am some what allergic to that high amount of them. No its not a hangover, I can get that off of like one glass of commercial wine.

As far as the varieties of grapes go this is what I think, I would like opinions and commits
Catawba - Dont know much about these yet still on the list
Cabernet-Sauvignon - the closest I can get the the merlot that I want, as far as I know
Chambourcin - Did some reading and haven't really made up my mind on these
Chardonnay - Not interested
Delaware - Not interested
Leon-Millot - I like this one but still undecided
Seyval - I really like this one but it might not be a good choice.


I think as far as the raspberries go I don't have much of a choice, even though there are several listed. Unless someone can convience me otherwise I think I am going to go with Heritage and Black Raspberry Allen. The Dormanred is the other option but I don't really want a runner.

So what is everyones opinion about these choices.

Thanks for the commits thus far.


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## grapeman (May 25, 2010)

The Leon Millot can make a decent wine without a lot of fuss. They are a bit prone to mildews because the clusters are very tight, and they can get pretty vigorous. The wines will be fairly fruit forward heavy on black cherry, but are low in tannins even when fermented to dry on the dkins and seeds. You might try leaving some stems in if they are good and ripe. If you like a sweet wine with plenty of foxiness- you can use the Niagara. I think there are more choices you may grow there than what they recommend. It sounds like they are leaning to zone five to seven. Pick from grapes in those zones and they should do OK. I would thing Corot Noir would be a great choice there and give you more tannins with the black cherry and fruitiness to boot. Noiret on rootstock would also do well and is even a bit higher in tannins and has all the other attributes.


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## Racer (May 25, 2010)

I don't know if you a copy of it but here's a link to the older mid-atlantic wine grape growers guide.Depending on exactly were you live you can be in usda 7b or higher which puts you at risk for pierce's disease. You might want to ask the ag extension folks how good/bad it is were your at.


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## pwrose (May 26, 2010)

Thanks again Racer,,
I have alot of the documents in pdf format from there already and I am not sure how I missed that one.
I do have the ones from there on bunch grapes and muscadines, along with several other fruit docs.

Where bouts you from Racer?


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## Racer (May 26, 2010)

I'm in Illinois right now. But a short lifetime ago I lived in cherry point/havelock n.c. for about 3 years (1978-1981). My wife and I decided a little over 8 years ago that north carolina is were we really want to be. So we shopped around and found a piece of land in chatham county that we both thought just spoke to us, so we bought it(6.6 acres). It is in the lowest part of the newly named Haw River AVA about 5 miles south of silk hope winery. I can't wait to move and start a vineyard there. Unfortunately I really need to stay where I'm at for about 8-10 more years before I can make the move though.


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## pwrose (May 27, 2010)

Thats cool, I have about 6 more months and then I retire from the uscg. Then it is a matter of letting the kids finish school before heading west to the mountains of nc somewhere. But I cant wait that long to start growing stuff, I would love to start my own vineyard but I don't want to do just grapes. The way I figure it I need at least 100-200 acres just for my hobby, LOL.


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## sly22guy (May 27, 2010)

Cab sauv & merlot i thought were the same climate zones. if you like the merlot why not grow that?


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## pwrose (May 27, 2010)

That is what I thought but according to the ag office they are not as far as trying to grow them here. I specifically asked about them and that is what I was told.


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## Mud (May 27, 2010)

I've been watching this thread with some interest because I did the same thing almost 2 yrs ago. Of course we're in different climate zones, so not much translates. All those plantings will be a lot of pleasant work. I'm a little fearful of harvest time, but that won't be such a big deal if you're retired. Anyway, looks like you're well on your way. Have fun.


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## pwrose (May 27, 2010)

Thanks mud, Unfortunaley I will still have to work full time at a second career to survive. I will only turn 39 the month after I retire, so I at least get to start the second fairly young for a second career.

Ok back on to the yard filling in.
I was gifted 500 atlantic white cedar trees today, and no I am not going to fill up the yard with the. I am however in the front yard start hiding the house, then move onto the opposite side of the yard. Of course there will be alot more trees than what I need, but it was take 500 or take none. I might see about finding some other property near by to plant them on, I would hate to waste them.

Also got some more news on the vineyard side of the yard,
The ag lady is going to come out after I get my soil samples back and help me lay out where everything will go. She did mention that with doing the bunch grapes that I want to do, it would be best to put the raspberries and blackberries inbetween the rows of grapes. She said this would help with one of the problems that bunch grapes have in this area. The way it will work will look something like this

G1 G1 G1 G1
R1 R1 R1 R1
G2 G2 G2 G2
B1 B1 B1 B1
G3 G3 G3 G3
and so on.


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## Mud (May 27, 2010)

You should plant them randomly in your neighbor's yards at night. And pretend nothing weird happened.


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## pwrose (May 27, 2010)

I had to quit crying before I could respond. If you only knew the neighbors I have.


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## Racer (May 27, 2010)

Just curious, what between row spacing are they suggesting for the grapes?


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## Larryh86GT (May 27, 2010)

Just remember that those raspberries are going to want to spread out. They send suckers out 6-8 foot away from their rows.


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## pwrose (May 27, 2010)

We haven't talked about spacing yet. She wanted to come look at the property first to make some decissions on spacing and placement of the vines as well as the fruit trees that I want to plant. I will keep everyone posted as it comes.

It will be later in the summer before I cut in the property to prep it for planting early spring next year. In the mean while there will be plenty to talk about as things come into play. I want to find a place that has the wild version of blackberries and not the thronless cultivated version. I know there are cultivated thorned versions but there is something to the wild variety that just appeals to me. I already know of some of the problems that come with wild fruits, but the way I see it is that if these wild varieties have survived this long then they must have some sort of resistance or else they would not be here.


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## Racer (May 27, 2010)

Excellent point made on the berries. Just find some good no snag, thorn resistant clothing before starting to work with them.


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## Mud (May 28, 2010)

Best way to treat raspberries is a trellis system similar to this. I drew it with 2 uprights, but 1 will do it as long as you don't lean on the crossbar. Just mow everything outside the trellis and they'll never escape. If you keep the trellis about 6' wide and you can reach into the center from either side.

Everbearing (primocane) raspberries can be mowed to the ground every year if you want just one crop.


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## pwrose (May 28, 2010)

Well mud that is probably going to be what I do, because the only kind that I am really going to be able to grow here is the Dormanred. I spoke with one of the local farmers today and he said he had grown some raspberries some time ago (3 years or so) and the only kind that really produced anything was the Dormanred. What is funny and figures is that is the one that I wasn't all that interested in getting. I guess I will have to sacrifice something in order to grow raspberries, might as well be the type. At least I will still have some.

By the way the lady at the ag office tried to convience me to do them in the first place, now I know why.


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## Mud (May 28, 2010)

Where did my drawing go? Maybe I failed to upload it. Hope it wasn't too big. Will try again. <typey typey POOF!>


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