# Grape growing... let me pick your brains



## Zintrigue (Oct 10, 2015)

Hi everyone. I'm very new to this winemaking thing (my first rudimentary "Welches Wine" bubbling away in the pantry), so I thought I'd try to get some answers from people who know what they're talking about before I get too involved.

I've always wanted to grow my own grapes, now I have a reason. I'm in the Sierra Nevadas in California, zone 8b. We have 90-100º summers and cold winters, sometimes snowing at my elevation. I have a few questions that Google isn't answering.

1.) When is the best time to plant? I'm thinking some time in spring, but it probably also depends on my zone. The world is a strange place, though, this one might surprise me.
2.) How many grapes (and thusly, gallons of wine) can I expect per plant? (new vs established)
3.) What does everyone do for bird control? The little jerks ate all my blueberries this summer. I was thoroughly disappointed in my cat, who sat there and watched.
4.) Where is a good resource that will help me determine which grapes will grow best for my area, and how to coddle the ones that don't fare well here?

I have mostly orange clay soil, very poor nutrition. My roma tomatoes usually come out no bigger than a kiwi - with blossom end rot, due to poor calcium. I read that the poor nutrition is a good thing for wine grapes because it produces small grapes, which means more skins, which means more flavor. 

I'm going to be planting them up on a ledge. Mountain life: tiered landscaping. I could take a picture of the proposed spot if it helps. If I space them six feet apart I should be able to fit about 12 plants. I have an irrigation system and an 8 foot fence around this spot - which faces south. Compost in the works.

Thoughts? Criticism? Laughter? Tell me what you know! 

-Zin


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## salcoco (Oct 11, 2015)

I would start with a soil analysis. it will require ou to state that you plan on planting grapes and they will state the amendments required to provide the right nutrients. Your county agent should be able to help here. they also will give you advice on your vegetables.
Plant in the spring. 
One plant can yield from 8-15lbs of grapes depending on varietal, pruning and trellising. 15 lbs required for one gallon .
bird control requires netting
I would source many of the nurseries you have in CA. I would imagine UC Davis would also have specific recommendations.
do a lot of research before you jump. fungicide control will require a regular spray schedule. good luck


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## Zintrigue (Oct 11, 2015)

Thanks for your advice. This is exciting and scary all at once. 

One other question, if you don't mind... I plan on planting some Zinfandel grapes because it's my favorite wine. But I like variety and would like a good, all around red grape that I can be creative with. Is a Cabernet grape a good choice for this? Or is there a better one? 

Thanks so much!

-Zin


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## salcoco (Oct 12, 2015)

I would suggest you purchase some cab sauv and see for your self if it fits your desires. 
I would also visit some wineries in your area and see what grapes they have success with. 
investigate your cab sauv question with appropriate tastings.


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## OilnH2O (Oct 15, 2015)

salcoco said:


> I would start with a soil analysis...
> I would source many of the nurseries you have in CA... UC Davis would also have specific recommendations....
> _do a lot of research before you jump_... good luck



Dittos to that above. 

Don't hesitate to find your local "county agent" or NRCS (National Resource Conservation Service - used to be the Soil Conservation Service) office - they might be located with or in a US Forest Service office -- and run this all by them. Sometimes a county agent will even come by and look at your spot and can tell you whether it's feasible.

The biggest concern might be the number of your plants. I've got a very small vineyard with only about 28 plants that produce. This was a good year and yet I have 88lbs of grapes and hope to get 5-6 gallons of wine which is maybe only 30 bottles. So, 12 plants will be a lot of work for perhaps only a few bottles - but you can definitely have fun! 

What you're really starting, at first, is a big experiment - which is why I echo the posts above that suggest lots of research! And, good luck!


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## Zintrigue (Oct 15, 2015)

This is all very good advice, thank you both so much. 

I am definitely reading up on this whole process. I'm learning that there's a wide expanse of things in this whole process that affect quality and flavor. The grape, being one. The acids, the ph, the sugars, so many things! But, back to the grape, there's a lot of potential there for some amazing (and not so amazing) flavor. 

An experiment is exactly what this is! Because I'm not saving very much money making my own wine if I have to buy all of these grapes or juice from elsewhere (which could, in themselves, be questionable), so its important to me to find a way to grow my own. If it's just not feasible then it looks like my new hobby is going to be a lot smaller than I had originally anticipated. Maybe I'll move somewhere with space for a vineyard. 

-Zintrigue


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## salcoco (Oct 16, 2015)

I hate to burst your balloon. buying grapes for wine making will be cheaper than growing your own even if your labor is free. it is the bragging rights that count.


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## Zintrigue (Oct 17, 2015)

salcoco said:


> I hate to burst your balloon. buying grapes for wine making will be cheaper than growing your own even if your labor is free. it is the bragging rights that count.



Consider my balloon burst!

-Zintrigue


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## OilnH2O (Oct 17, 2015)

Zintrigue said:


> This is all very good advice, thank you both so much... I'm learning... An experiment is exactly what this is! Because I'm not saving very much money... *Maybe I'll move somewhere with space for a vineyard.*
> 
> -Zintrigue



Uh oh. You've caught the wine-itis bug - STEP AWAY FROM THE BOTTLE!!! (...or you'll get sucked in...)


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## Zintrigue (Oct 17, 2015)

OilnH2O said:


> Uh oh. You've caught the wine-itis bug - STEP AWAY FROM THE BOTTLE!!! (...or you'll get sucked in...)



And die happy. Hah.

-Zintrigue


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## WellingtonToad (Oct 18, 2015)

OK Salcoco, I will bite. I have had your answers bef0ore, and respect what you have to say. I know you know your stuff. But on this one you have me questioning.
I am like Zintrigue. Clay soil, and have put in 120 vines about 3 years ago (southern hemisphere so I am looking forward to my first crop)
I approached the task as not can I grow grapes but how cheap can I grow grapes. Cuttings from a friends vineyard, neighbour prepared the vineyard soil. Picked up all the posts, wire and irrigation hoses from a vineyard that was closing.
A lot of work from me "unpaid". 
Total cost so far ~Au$700. 
Cost each year for grapes = $170 
I make my own Bordeau mix from Copper sulphate and Slaked lime (Limil if that means anything to you). I plan to do my own vineyard maintenance. Plan to be pruning to achieve 2kg per vine per year.

I have difficulty in seeing how it could cost less to buy the grapes.

What am I missing?


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## drumlinridgewinery (Oct 18, 2015)

I undestand this is a hobby. But our time is worth something. I also have a small vineyard and fruit plots. They do not pick them selves. Its braggin rights. I buy several buckets every year for the wine. 6 gal juice less than $50. Thats a lot of grapes. Its wine . Its good wine. I made it. The stuff I am most proud of though is the wine that came from my property. I grew it, nurtured it, saved it from the birds, picked it, saved it from my wife and kids (raspberries), and made wine that I am damn proud of.

Man plant some vines. Its a wild fun ride. I want to plant more. Dont have the room. So I will continue to buya few buckets for the drink but for the story I will grow my own.


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## barbiek (Oct 19, 2015)

I did a bad thing on one of my vines before I knew not to let them get any grapes on them the first few years I got enough off the one vine to make 2 gal of wine with the addition of a lil grape juice I had purchased. Wow! Did I enjoy the bragging rights handed everyone a bottle at Christmas that year and haven't had any grapes since. Hard lesson learned! Don't make the same mistake I did good luck and have fun! And remember patience grape growing and wine making both test your patience


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## salcoco (Oct 19, 2015)

I did the comparison of buying grapes versus growing same when I had my own winery. Granted much of the material you gathered was free and you have not considered your labor cost you have not looked at your yearly operating costs. By this I mean labor for pruning, labor and chemicals for proper spraying and finally harvest. what was the cost per pound of the $170 grapes you purchased? I am not advocating not growing grapes we had over 10 acres with the winery. I loved going out to the vineyard every day. but when it comes down to dollars and cents buying sometimes wins out. ,good luck with your effort and may your first vintage be a great one.


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## WellingtonToad (Oct 19, 2015)

The labour cost are the villain. I get that.
Once you put the word "Hobby" against any task, the costs take on a different perspective. Consider fishing, wood turning or knitting. All good hobbies but if you considered the cost of labour and equipment you just wouldn't do it.
My friend bought a boat, rods etc. I asked him how much the fish cost? He said never count the cost of a fish!!!
As for the grapes, get them from a commercial winery. It is a deal with the manager. After the winery has all it wants he lets us have ours. I get them for about $1.70 per kg. A really good deal (cash in hand). But they would be left to rot if we didn't want them. There is an oversupply of grapes over here. 
Best deal I have seen is $1.00 per kg, but concerned about the quality.


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## Zintrigue (Oct 19, 2015)

This is all really amazing information. I had no idea that you can't let the plants fruit for the first few years. Of course, this makes sense so that the plants focus on growing and getting stronger. I still plan on planting my own, just because it's my dream to be as self sufficient as probable in my tiny spot of fenced in backyard hillside. But I definitely need to make a list of local vineyards and call down my list, asking who's brain I can pick and if they sell their grapes. 

I agree on the hobby aspect of growing. While I understand that the labor is intense and makes growing more burdensome than just buying, as a knitter I'm going to take the side of the hobbyists on this one. 

-Zintrigue


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## ceeaton (Oct 21, 2015)

Zintrigue said:


> This is all really amazing information. I had no idea that you can't let the plants fruit for the first few years. Of course, this makes sense so that the plants focus on growing and getting stronger. I still plan on planting my own, just because it's my dream to be as self sufficient as probable in my tiny spot of fenced in backyard hillside. But I definitely need to make a list of local vineyards and call down my list, asking who's brain I can pick and if they sell their grapes.
> 
> I agree on the hobby aspect of growing. While I understand that the labor is intense and makes growing more burdensome than just buying, as a knitter I'm going to take the side of the hobbyists on this one.
> 
> -Zintrigue



I am looking forward to planting some of my own vines also (zone 6B). Have found a local vineyard owner who has freely shared information with me who is only about 25 minutes away.

I think as we grow our own and learn how hard it is to do everything required to get good quality grapes and what a variable the weather each year is, we will appreciate the grapes that we do buy.


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## Zintrigue (Oct 22, 2015)

ceeaton said:


> I am looking forward to planting some of my own vines also (zone 6B). Have found a local vineyard owner who has freely shared information with me who is only about 25 minutes away.
> 
> I think as we grow our own and learn how hard it is to do everything required to get good quality grapes and what a variable the weather each year is, we will appreciate the grapes that we do buy.




Yes, I can see what you mean.

I finally opened a phone book today and found some local vineyards under, you guessed it, "Vineyards." And wow, what a wealth of information! One guy said that Zinfandel grows like a weed here. To quote him, "you could piss on it and it would still give you a great product." Cab, not so great here. But Italians and Spanish grapes thrive. He couldn't say enough good things about how well Zin does - hence all of the "old vine" Zins (49er Zin?) being so prevalent in my area.

I can buy grapes from all sorts of vineyards around here. He gave me names of people's brains to pick for growing. And, the golden piece of information: The name of a home winemaker in my neighborhood who's licensed to sell and would love to share his wisdom. Pinch me! 

Guys, I might be on my way to this winemaking thing sooner than I think! 

-Zintrigue


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## ceeaton (Oct 22, 2015)

Yes, it is incredible how willing most winemakers are to share their past experiences. I found that some at my workplace avoid talking about brewing or winemaking with me as they want to actually get some work done...such misguided priorities.


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## mgmarty (Oct 22, 2015)

I can buy grapes from all sorts of vineyards around here. He gave me names of people's brains to pick for growing. And, the golden piece of information: The name of a home winemaker in my neighborhood who's licensed to sell and would love to share his wisdom. Pinch me! 

Oh you are in deep sh$t.


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## Zintrigue (Oct 23, 2015)

ceeaton said:


> Yes, it is incredible how willing most winemakers are to share their past experiences. I found that some at my workplace avoid talking about brewing or winemaking with me as they want to actually get some work done...such misguided priorities.



The nerve of some people.



mgmarty said:


> I can buy grapes from all sorts of vineyards around here. He gave me names of people's brains to pick for growing. And, the golden piece of information: The name of a home winemaker in my neighborhood who's licensed to sell and would love to share his wisdom. Pinch me!
> 
> Oh you are in deep sh$t.



Shh... don't tell my husband....

-Zintrigue


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## dwhill40 (Nov 29, 2015)

But...if you like seeing those little sprouts turn into a hefty well formed grape producing factory shaped by your hands, it's pretty damn cool to grow your own vines. The drama that comes with each lesson learned, the research to find root causes, the plans for next year, seeing those purple tags hanging heavy, all very cool stuff. That reminds me...time to order the bird netting.


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