# Hole is dug for our new wine cellar



## Sammyk

We had an offer we could not refuse! They started digging this past Saturday. It will be 10 by 10 and 6'5" tall.

I will add new photos as progress is made. Rained out today hopefully more digging tomorrow.

Hole is partially dug. Sammy and Ginger are checking out the trench for drainage is dug. Mounds of dirt! Cement blocks were delivered here today.

In the top photo where the grass is on the right side - there will be steps going down the slop to the where the door will be placed.


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## Stefani

I'd like to see photos as it progresses! 

Thank you for putting this post up!


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## Sammyk

*Full Trench*

This is a photo of the full trench. This is looking from the back of our property to where the door to the cellar will be facing. It will not be visible from the road the front side of our property


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## ibglowin

Looking good, is the trench for utilities? Keep the pics coming!


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## Sammyk

No the trench is for drainage. The door side of the cellar is at ground level so there will be stairs going do into the cellar. There will be a french drain all around the cellar because top of the cellar sits higher ground. 

It is being built into a 3' high hill but will be dug deeper than the ground level. This will keep run off from rain from seeping inside around the outsides near the ground level. There will be a drain placed under the doorway so that rain will flow from the higher ground to the lower ground and into a pipe in the trench. 

We have electric outside the garage so the plan is one outlet and one light fixture of some sort but we have not got to that part yet.


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## Sammyk

*Side View*

This is the side view so you can see the hill where the cellar is being dug.


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## tfries

Good looking start to your cellar. I know what you are going through as we undertook a similar project a couple years ago. Keep the pictures coming.


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## Sammyk

tfries would you share some thoughts on how you did yours, please?


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## ffemt128

Looking good. Can't wait to see more pics as the work progresses.


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## JohnT

One thing that I would suggest is this.. 

You seem to be concerned with drainage. I would say you should install a sump well as you build. It can be far more effort if you find that you need one after the thing is built. 

Looks great. Wish I could do the same, but it just would not work on my property.


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## Sammyk

We don't generally get a lot of rain at one time. We are 6 hours from the coast and if a hurricane comes across the state of NC or SC we could get a lot of rain. That has happened one time in the 13 years we have lived here.

The dirt is red clay and clay does not drain but seeps in over a few hours or it mostly runs to the lowest part of our property.

So we are not overly concerned but trying to prepare for the worst case scenario.

Roof will be corrugated metal with cement poured on top of that and then followed by dirt. Does anyone have any thoughts about the roof construction?


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## joea132

With that kind of construction you can double as a bomb shelter! Solid plan to encase it in concrete. Might as well build it the right way the first time. Have you considered ventilation as well?


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## DaveL

Waterproof the roof just as you do the walls. Even though its underground some slope would be wise as well.


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## Sammyk

There will be ventilation in the front side. The contractor is reluctant to put ventilation in the top because he was concerned that the pipe may leak over time.
I may sell tickets for entrance in the event of a bomb! And if that happens there will be plenty of "beverages" down there to drink so we may not know what hit us.


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## Sammyk

DaveL top and sides will be waterproofed inside and out. There will be gravel then a plastic under the cement floor. I am thinking we will carpet and padding the floor in the event that a bottle falls on the floor. Probably pick up some remnants of carpet and padding.

Last week I dropped full 2 bottles on the closet floor and the carpeting kept both bottles from breaking.


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## tfries

Sammyk, here are some thoughts based on what we did. Good that you are planning on drainage around the base. You should also think about how the roof will drain. Our roof is slightly sloped with a rain gutter attached. The roof was made from plywood covered with a waterproof membrane. You could then put your corrogated metal over that. A cement roof would be expensive and for safety, you would want that to be designed by an engineer.

Think about maybe adding a drain inside the cellar so that if you drop a carboy or something, you can hose it out into the drain. That drain could be connected to your french drain. 

Electrical inside is good for lights and depending on how humid it gets, you might need to run a dehumidifier. Our cellar would get up to 90% with out the dehumidifier.

If you can make it bigger do it. We started out 10x10 and upped it up to 13x10 and glad we did.

I'll share more thoughts as they come to me. Here is a link to some photos of our build.

http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?/topic/51677-our-cellar-project/


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## ibglowin

Tom,

All I can say is w0W! Like someone else said, nice deck and that thing below is pretty cool as well! 

So the question that is on everyones minds......... How much? It's beautiful!


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## Sammyk

Wow Tom! Very nice indeed. Ours will be different in that we will not be making wine in ours. It will only be used for storage and aging.
It will not much more than the old root cellars.


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## DaveL

If you add a drain inside I would not attach it to the french drain. critters can sometimes clog these up. Then it could backup into your cellar. I would slope the floor towards the door and wash down to drain outside. just my 2 cents. 
If your roof is 6 inches thick with #5 rebar 1ft on center each way, you could drive a truck on it.

Carpeting and that humidity might be a issue. Possible solution might be rubber stall mats sold for horse stalls. Or cork tiles. 
Jealous. Cant wait to move ahead with my own


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## Runningwolf

Tom that is totally awesome.


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## Sammyk

After talking to the contractor today we decided against a drain inside. There will be a drain outside the door that will go to the ditch. So it could be hosed down and or swept from inside and into the drain. Or washed and shop vac'd up.


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## tfries

DaveL said:


> Carpeting and that humidity might be a issue. Possible solution might be rubber stall mats sold for horse stalls. Or cork tiles.
> Jealous. Cant wait to move ahead with my own



We considered stall mats for our cellar, but I found the rubber smell overwhelming. I am sure that over time it would have probably faded, but we decided to just leave the floor bare concrete.


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## Runningwolf

Tom I got the heavy rubber mats from Home Depot and you're right about the smell. I left them in the garage for a week before bringing them into the basement and that did the trick.


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## Boatboy24

What about these for the floor?

http://www.floormatcompany.com/dura-chef-78-inch-thick-commercial-kitchen-mats-p-24.aspx


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## Runningwolf

Those mats are exactly the same ones I got at home.depot for a lot kess money.


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## novalou

Sammyk said:


> After talking to the contractor today we decided against a drain inside. There will be a drain outside the door that will go to the ditch. So it could be hosed down and or swept from inside and into the drain. Or washed and shop vac'd up.



Any updates??!!


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## JohnT

tfries said:


> We considered stall mats for our cellar, but I found the rubber smell overwhelming. I am sure that over time it would have probably faded, but we decided to just leave the floor bare concrete.


 

There are carpets designed for outdoor use (for patios or "3 season" rooms).


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## Sammyk

*It was slow going but now progress!*

We have been unusually cold for us. So the work stopped until yesterday

The contractor says it should be finished this week.

Yesterday the footings. Today the blocks.


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## grapeman

Are they adding any rebar and core filling? Without that the walls won't be very strong but the shortness of each wall will help because of the corners.


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## Sammyk

Yes on the rebar and core filling.


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## grapeman

Super. That will add tremendously to the longterm stability of the cellar. Without it the walls eventually may push in.

Won't be long and you will have your dream cellar.


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## Runningwolf

Sammyk said:


> We have been unusually cold for us. So the work stopped until yesterday
> 
> The contractor says it should be finished this week.
> 
> Yesterday the footings. Today the blocks.


 
As I sit here looking at all the snow in my yard, I can't get past your sunshine and dry dirt. 

Unusually cold? What did it hit 50*?


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## pjd

Dan, Even in Beautiful Southwest Florida it is down right cold! This morning 39 degrees. It broke records and will probably do it again tomorrow morning.


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## Runningwolf

pjd said:


> Dan, Even in Beautiful Southwest Florida it is down right cold! This morning 39 degrees. It broke records and will probably do it again tomorrow morning.


 
OMG I am so sorry to hear that! not


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## Sammyk

Actually Dan we have been in the 20's in the morning and low 40's during the day. We should be in the upper 60's or low 70's. We actually had snow flakes two days ago.
On another note the blue skies you see in the photos well, here the locals refer to them as "Carolina Blue". We never heard of that color until we moved here.
We do get cold in the winter but generally have those "Carolina Blue" skies.


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## Sammyk

Phil the reason we left MI was to get away from the cold and snow. This past week, we felt like we were back in Michigan!


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## Rodnboro

Looks good Sammy. I'm jealous.


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## vacuumpumpman

What a huge task to take on !! But it is soo worth it in the end and I am glad you are both talking it thru and making all the right decisions. 

Good luck !!


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## DaveL

L:Living in VA I am very familiar with Carolina Blue. But what color are the skies in Michigan? Or is it too cold to go outside and look?


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## Sammyk

Dave they are cloudy and overcast 75% of the time from October until March. Weeks at a time with no sun. Then piles of dirty dingy snow everywhere and NO sun. So depressing, that is why we left.

I did want to tell you though. The inspector was here for the cellar and we were talking about frost levels here and he said "what frost line? We don't have a frost line here!" I did not want to argue with you but I knew we don't get frost in the ground.....


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## DaveL

LOL
any idiot can become an inspector. I teach them all the time. No argument from me. The problem with inspectors is they all come from a specific trade. But they inspect many if not all trades depending how large your town is. Also most communities get a third party inspector to do foundations when it counts to relieve themselves of liability. Won't matter for you anyway since your 6ft in the ground.
When do you sorbate your fruit wines?


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## Sammyk

Actually the contractor said the same thing, no frost line here.

Sorbate generally the 2nd racking in case I decide to back flavor or sweeten.


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## DaveL

You do this after the backsweetening?


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## Sammyk

No before back sweetening.


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## DaveL

Thats what I thought, Thanks.


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## grapeman

Although you need to go by what the inspector says, there is a frost line designated for Catawba County NC of 12 inches. See the link http://www.catawbacountync.gov/building/_pdfs/designcodes.pdf .
You have no problems there with frost getting below the footings so you are good to go. It really is amazing how many times contractors, etc will give out incorrect advice simply because they were told so at one time themselves. Basically if it freezes at all, you have a frost line - the point to which it can freeze in the coldest year of the period. Here in the north we have a frost line between 4 and 6 feet, depending on your location. It can be influenced by length of cold spells and amount of ground cover- such as snow.


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## novalou

grapeman said:


> Although you need to go by what the inspector says, there is a frost line designated for Catawba County NC of 12 inches. See the link http://www.catawbacountync.gov/building/_pdfs/designcodes.pdf .
> You have no problems there with frost getting below the footings so you are good to go. It really is amazing how many times contractors, etc will give out incorrect advice simply because they were told so at one time themselves. Basically if it freezes at all, you have a frost line - the point to which it can freeze in the coldest year of the period. Here in the north we have a frost line between 4 and 6 feet, depending on your location. It can be influenced by length of cold spells and amount of ground cover- such as snow.



Sammyk and a few others did a good job beating to death the existence (or non existence) of a frost line in his area on SC in another thread.

Think about how to insulate your roof Sammy from the intense summertime sun. I think that will be a challenge.


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## Sammyk

We may get a dozen or so frosts a year, and not even on consecutive days but once they sun is up the frost is gone. End of subject.

He is going to put corrugated metal on the top, covered with 4 to 5 inches of cement and then fill over with dirt.
They are digging the drain in the bottom of the floor and will do the floor today.


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## jswordy

Inspector? We don't need no stinking inspector in my county! The state makes us inspect the electrical. That's it. 

Uh, that's a good thing if you do your own work and do it right; a bad thing if you hire it done by some jack-leg. But you know, even a poorly conceived building, plumbing system or electrical system can pass an inspection where required with flying colors and still be a PITA to live with. There's no code against "dumb work."

grapeman, I hear ya on frost line. They say the bury depth for pipes here in southern TN is 2 feet. But I don't do that, I go 3 feet. Why? Cuz on that 1-in-10 out-year where we have a week of below zero weather, those 2-foot pipes will freeze and can burst. Learned by experience.

They also make us put underground electrical wires in conduit. People up North think that's not needed, but here there are a lot of little sharp limestone rocks in the subsoil. That's not even the real reason, though. The real reason is that here, we get direct lightning strikes a lot. When that hits and surges, it can burn right through the plastic coating on a wire not run in conduit. Uh, yep - learned from experience.


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## Sammyk

Floor and floor drain are in. Blocks are filled with cement.


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## Runningwolf

jswordy said:


> They also make us put underground electrical wires in conduit. People up North think that's not needed, but here there are a lot of little sharp limestone rocks in the subsoil. That's not even the real reason, though. The real reason is that here, we get direct lightning strikes a lot. When that hits and surges, it can burn right through the plastic coating on a wire not run in conduit. Uh, yep - learned from experience.


 Jim any new construction up north here all has to be in conduit. I personally think it would be foolish not to. I have several runs going to my shed and patio. Everything in conduit. It makes life so much easier if you have to run a new or additional line. When I poured my patio I even ran conduit under it without wires and one that came up in the middle of it, just in case I decided to do something later. The patio is 24' in diameter. I like the way you think. An ounce of prevention now can save thousands later. Inspectors here are pretty tough but then I'm sure there are those that will turn there heads for $$.


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## DaveL

Sammy and I beat the frost line to death. We disagree. Thats OK. We still talk wine and if we ever drink a beer together it would be a fun topic. lol 
The cellar is looking good Sammy.
Maybe when backfilling you might consider placing 2 inch hardboard insulation around the top 2 feet of the walls against the wall and over the rroof concrete under the dirt. When it is warm it will help keep the cellar cool. 4-5 inches of dirt and 6 inches of concrete is a relatively low R value I believe.


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## millwright01

Just tuned in. Looks great! I will follow this intently. I just bought an acreage and this look slike a great idea.


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## jswordy

Contractor has to tar coat the outside, at minimum.


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## DaveL

Come on man give us some more progress pics!


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## Sammyk

No updates other than the roof/ceiling was poured yesterday. They sure are taking their time working one day a week, and we are fed up! We have major rain moving in on Thursday. He was supposed to be here today and never showed up or called.


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## TomK-B

Grrrrr !!!!!!


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## tfries

Sammyk said:


> No updates other than the roof/ceiling was poured yesterday. They sure are taking their time working one day a week, and we are fed up! We have major rain moving in on Thursday. He was supposed to be here today and never showed up or called.



I know the feeling. The contractor who did our cellar did not work when it rained or on weekends. That year here in Oregon, it seemed like the only time it did not rain was on weekends. We were getting pretty frustrated toward the end.


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## Sammyk

To be more frank about it we are pi**ed about it. It was a gorgeous day Friday and yesterday. Every time we ask he said it will be done by the week-end. I suppose I should ask which week-end. A job that he said would take less than a week is going into the 4th week.
I told him upfront it had to be done before it was 70 degrees outside and he said "no problem" now we are into the 80's!


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## jswordy

Awwww man ... GROUP HUG!


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## Sammyk

They tarred the roof and all sides today and put plastic over same. Installed door. They are placing drain pipe around the outside perimeter as I type. It was in the low 80's here today and the thermometer inside has stayed at 69 degrees all day today.


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## Sammyk

Squeaky wheel (me) gets the grease. Lots of progress today.
Supposed to get heavy rain tonight.

In the last photo you can see our greenhouse.


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## novalou

Sammyk said:


> They tarred the roof and all sides today and put plastic over same. Installed door. They are placing drain pipe around the outside perimeter as I type. It was in the low 80's here today and the thermometer inside has stayed at 69 degrees all day today.



Sammy, keep us posted throughout the summer on how the temp inside your cellar hold up.


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## novalou

Sammyk said:


> Squeaky wheel (me) gets the grease. Lots of progress today.
> Supposed to get heavy rain tonight.
> 
> In the last photo you can see our greenhouse.



I'd assume your cellar is done by now. Any updates?


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## Sammyk

Final photo of our wine cellar. All that is left is to get the area planted again. We did plant the "top" with a vine that will spread all over the hill and down the front. Temperature is holding around 64 even though we were over 80 degrees yesterday.
In the fall when it is cooler, we will stucco the railroad ties that were used to hold the dirt in place. We received very heavy rain (4 inches) and the dirt all held!


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## Rocky

Sammyk, it looks great! Kind of reminds me of an ammo bunker. Nice job.


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## FABulousWines

Very nice indeed. I am suppressing deep envy. I wish I could do something like this. I hope you get a lot of good use out of that!


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## ibglowin

Looks like it was worth all the effort. Well done!


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## DirtyDawg10

Looks great!


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## Sammyk

In the event of an "attack" we will sell admission tickets. LOL!

From the street side it just looks like a pile of dirt bigger and taller than what was already there. I can live with the low to mid 60 degrees. There was no other way to build and get a steel door in the front for access.
Neighbor had the canvas tarp in his shed and even helped put it up. Just to shade the front side which faces south.

My brother will be here from FL tonight and we are anxious for him to see it. Perhaps he will help us put the cases of wine on the Sam's Club racks. Have one more rack in the box to be put together.


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## Scott

Looks very nice! Is it full yet, maybe need to put on an addition?


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## Tess

very cool!! What does the inside look like. How much do you think it will hold. Is it full of racks?


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## novalou

Sammyk said:


> In the event of an "attack" we will sell admission tickets. LOL!
> 
> From the street side it just looks like a pile of dirt bigger and taller than what was already there. I can live with the low to mid 60 degrees. There was no other way to build and get a steel door in the front for access.
> Neighbor had the canvas tarp in his shed and even helped put it up. Just to shade the front side which faces south.
> 
> My brother will be here from FL tonight and we are anxious for him to see it. Perhaps he will help us put the cases of wine on the Sam's Club racks. Have one more rack in the box to be put together.



Plant a shade tree on the south side.


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## Sammyk

Not finished inside and no plans to finish it. Just block wall, cement floor with a drain. Simple light fixture and an outlet inside, nothing fancy inside. Right now it has 3 full wine racks (168 bottles each) and the 4th will be full once we get the other wine rack put together. Will have to buy another wine rack soon. We will also use it for empty wine bottles and for aging wine. We have 50 gallons waiting to be bottled but held off until the cellar was finished.

We do plan to plant 2 shade trees one either side of the hill in the front. Just need to find the time.

It was 87 here today and temp held at 65 all day. Humidity was 80% so we are running a dehumidifier.
Brother arrived from FL tonight and he was impressed. He said it was all quality work. AND he is very picky having built his own home.


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## Runningwolf

Too bad you got the racks in already. I would have suggested painting the walls with something like dry lock and staining the floor with a good concrete stain like Behr has.


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## Sammyk

We had to get the wine out of the house because it is in the upper 80's here and we don't run air conditioning here. He took so damn long getting it done that we had no choice but to move all the wine down there. My criteria was it had to be finished before we hit 70 degrees, usually March. The door still needs to be caulked and he has been putting that off for over 2 weeks as it is.

Lesson learned! Never hire a contractor because they get a deposit and work at their leisure taking on and starting other jobs. I mean come on, he said it was a 4 or 5 day job and we gave him a deposit back in February. Every week it was "it will be finished by the end of the week". Guess we should have asked what week he meant.


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## Sammyk

Bad part is he lost another job because our next door neighbor is putting on an addition to their home and they went with someone else. Their addition is almost done in just about 2 weeks time.


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## DaveL

Very nice! Can we see some pics of the guts?


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## vacuumpumpman

Looks great !!


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## Dylan

I am going to do this someday!


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## seth8530

tfries said:


> Sammyk, here are some thoughts based on what we did. Good that you are planning on drainage around the base. You should also think about how the roof will drain. Our roof is slightly sloped with a rain gutter attached. The roof was made from plywood covered with a waterproof membrane. You could then put your corrogated metal over that. A cement roof would be expensive and for safety, you would want that to be designed by an engineer.
> 
> /



Did someone ask for an engineer? lol


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## Sammyk

*This is a hard post for me to write*

I need some help; some suggestions. While the cellar looks good it is greatly flawed.

We have been in the mid to upper 80's the past few days. Typically in the summer we have a lot of 90 degree days and some very close to a 100 degrees if not 100.

The problem is the past few days the cellar has been 71 degrees. While we felt we could live with mid 60's, low 70's, we are worried about the wine. More so because now we don't know how much higher it will go as we advance into summer.

We are not sure at this point if there is anyway to fix the problem so we are open to any suggestions and ideas.

On the other hand, the contractor has not been back in 2 weeks, not even with the final bill. Not a word from him. That is pretty typical of him show up unannounced and work a few hours and then disappear for a week or more at a time.


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## Runningwolf

Plant a shade tree.


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## novalou

Runningwolf said:


> Plant a shade tree.



Trees, lots of trees. Keep the ground from warming up in the hot sun. 

In the mean time, run a sprinkler over the top. The evaporating water will cool the roof.


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## Sammyk

We did plant 3 trees in the front. We have vinca vine planted on the top that gets the sprinkler every day that we do not have rain. Vinca vine were well established vines that we moved from another area. They are fast growers and if kept water will fill up the "top" of the cellar in a few months.


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## vacuumpumpman

I did not read every post - but do you have electric ? Possibility to run a small window air conditioner ?


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## Sammyk

We do have electric inside but the problem is we can not find an air conditioner that will work in a closed environment, meaning that there are no widows. The only opening is a small hole for the bottom drain inside.


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## seth8530

There is no such thing as an AC that will work inside of a closed environment. It works by taking heat from inside of the room and then exhausting it out the back (simple explanation).


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## vacuumpumpman

Sammyk said:


> We do have electric inside but the problem is we can not find an air conditioner that will work in a closed environment, meaning that there are no widows. The only opening is a small hole for the bottom drain inside.



here is a possible solution that I had in mind - it only takes a small hole per say - 

http://www.kingersons.com/serverroomportableairconditioner.html


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## ibglowin

I would suggest a portable "self contained" unit. They are more expensive than a normal window unit, they are louder, they are also less efficient than a window unit but....... It looks like your only real option at this point. If your drain line is clear/open to the outside world (and it sure should be) then it will work just fine stuffing the vent line into the drain line hole.


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## Sammyk

Mike do you have a model number and manufacturer? We search and searched and could not find anything.


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## jswordy

Google "portable air conditioner" and shop to your heart's content.


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## ibglowin

Those are harder to find than the normal window units but I have seen them at Costco (which is where that pic is from) as well as Target etc. Amazon also carries a bunch of them as well. Costco is my goto place as well as Amazon as they both have great return policies.



Sammyk said:


> Mike do you have a model number and manufacturer? We search and searched and could not find anything.


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## Sammyk

What I found when I Googled it is. We were searching the wrong words.


http://www.lowes.com/pd_367199-37610-GL-PAC-08E4_0__?productId=3652601&Ntt=portable+air+conditioner&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dportable%2Bair%2Bconditioner&facetInfo=

I did talk to them and they told me that they had no idea if it would work for my situation.


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## Sammyk

I have a call into the manufacturer (they are in CA) and we are EST but after reading the reviews:
The reviews are not that good for the most part. Mostly is said it raises the humidity which we do not need!
You have to add ice and water and maybe ice packs on top of the unit.

It does pay to shop around, Lowe's $269.00, Home Depot $98.00 (free home shipping) Amazon about the same as Home Depot with free/shipping.


*[FONT=&quot]SPT SF-609 Portable Evaporative Air Cooler with Ionizer[/FONT]*




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## ibglowin

The reviews on this unit from Amazon look to be pretty good. 

MobileComfort Portable AC


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## Sammyk

I did read the reviews on Amazon and they were either good or bad but enough to put doubts in our minds.


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## jswordy

I know someone who got one for use with a small travel trailer that is permanently parked in a game preserve. Worked fine.

Why can't you just order up a dump truck load or two of dirt and pile it on top? Thickening the cover layer seems to be a far better long-term solution. Did they use rigid foamboard on the outside and especially the top of your structure? If not, that would have helped a lot, so if you do get more dirt, scrape back the top covering and put down 6 inches of rigid foamboard made for subterranean use. Top with soil.


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## vacuumpumpman

I know that those portable air conditioners work well. Just make sure you have a drain for the water coming from the unit. The link I gave earlier - explains alot more in detail. 
Is your cellar open to the sun ? from 1 of the pics it appears that it stands about 2 feet above the gound height. If so that is where all your heat is coming from


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## JohnT

SammyK, 

DON"T PANIC! 

71 is not that bad as long as it is steady! Sure beats the 90+ temps you expect. 

Where in the cellar are you measuring the temp? I just wonder if there are cold and hot spots? 

Also, check that the door is well insulated and air tight. Do plant shade trees. 

I have found that Air conditioners ar far worse then a steady higher temperature. I never use any kind of AC because (with an AC) the temp never stays constant. The air is chilled down to a certian point, then the air warms up, then the AC kicks on and cools it back down. This "Up and Down" does more harm than good and could lead to "chill haze" and premature aging of the wine itself.


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## Runningwolf

Way too much drama, it's not so difficult. Forget the wine cellar, and poke a hole in the roof for a chimney and turn it into a smoke house. Turkeys, hams, sausage and your fish! Now you're talking!!!


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## pjd

In your climate forget about the evaporative cooler! It will not work. They do work well in the desert southwest but not in a humid climate. I really would not be worrying about 70s temperatures in my wine cellar. There is nothing in there that will last past 5 years so really little effect.


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## dessertmaker

You can adapt a window unit with some ductwork. 

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/JI3rviFUK-k

This is similar to what we did, except we ran the ductwork to the outside and put a grill over the hole we cut in the wall And we placed it on an actual AC drain pan that we piped to a floor drain to get rid of any condensate it made (which it didn't really make much if any.) and the air it blew was DRY!

It got FRIGID in there too!

We also did it quicker. We got a piece of commercial box style duct and cut a square big enough for the AC in it and shoved it in there like it was a window to the outside.


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## seth8530

My advice is two stage. A short term stage for your current situation and trying to get those temps down as fast as possible and a more long term planned out for the the future when you have the time/ money to work on it.

Short term!
So, here is what I propose, set up a raised up tarp up over your cellar.. Line the side that faces the sun with shiney foil to reflect radiation from the sun... This will work better than just putting a tarp over your cellar because the foil will reflect the sun off a lot better. Next, try out one of those portable AC units where you can stick the hose out the side that might help a bit.. Make sure you get one much more powerful than what is recommended for the size of your cellar (they usually come with a room size). 

One thing to consider is getting a large brute can full of ice and sitting it inside of your cellar. This will give the heat energy something to waste its energy on besides raising up the air temperature. Consider running a fan over the trash can to help out a bit.

Long term!

Insulate the papa out of this bad boy! Add as much dirt as you safely can on top of your cellar. This will provide natural insulation from the sun. Next, get some better insulation inside of your cellar it really helps! The goal should be that you can keep this bad boy cool all year round without having to run an AC unit 24/7.. Consider adding layers of foil on top of the roof of the cellar.. This will help keep out some of that pesky solar radiation.. The more layers of insulation you use the better protected your cellar will be. Like some others have said, planting some shade trees would also help.


My advice, is insulation. It is a passive feature and does not require constant upkeep and maintenance like portable AC units.. However, it might not be possible to keep the room cool without a portable AC unit... So, give my suggestions a looking over and see what you think. I can not promise you that this will fix your temperature problem, but based on what I know about this matter its the best that I can think up for your current situation.


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## seth8530

Also, dessert makers video that he posted would be worth watching I think.. Be aware of possible fire hazards of having something wrapped out the heat exchanger end of an AC unit... But, it might be worth considering. Just make sure that you have a way to channel the heat out of the duct.. Perhaps an outtake fan mounted on the end of it to force the hot air out?


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## novalou

Runningwolf said:


> Way too much drama, it's not so difficult. Forget the wine cellar, and poke a hole in the roof for a chimney and turn it into a smoke house. Turkeys, hams, sausage and your fish! Now you're talking!!!



Drama? I love it!

Blow it up, start over, and put it about 6 feet below the "frost line"!


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## Sammyk

There is no way to add more dirt on top. It was supposed to have 3' over the top but poor planning on the contractors part is the biggest culprit.

Right from the start he told me he would research on how to build a cellar and I kept all the tips/suggestions/ ideas from here on the forum in note pad and emailed it to him. I can tell you he did not research nor even bother to read my email with those notes.

While it does look good and we have had tons of compliments, it is not functional as a cellar because IMO it is way too warm. 

We did plant 3 trees on the front side.

We think the front side which faces south is the culprit. There is no insulation inside and we will insulate the steel door and the front side of the cellar inside on the south side. Both sides and the back have about 4' of dirt. The top has about 2' of dirt on top and really no way to add more dirt because it will wash down. We did plant annual rye grass on the sides and back. We will permanently seed again in the fall when grass is typically sown here in the south.
This has been a huge learning experience. Hopefully someone else will benefit from our experience.

I have added the finished picture so that folks do not have to go back pages and see the final product.


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## seth8530

Yeah, just looking at the top of the door and comparing it to the ground level above it you can tell that their is nowhere near enough dirt on top. Insulate it well and try installing an Active cooling solution.


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## DaveL

Crap 
let me try this again, I keep hitting the wrong button and losing my post.
Sorry to read of your troubles. 
I tend to agree with Seth, insulation. Start with the roof and south wall then the top 4 feet of the other walls.
Get an infrared thermometer$50 lowes. use this to identify your culprits .Also good for wine and BBQ 
Weatherstripping the door, check around outlets and light fixtures.
Tarp the walkway more.
Insulation on the outside would work better.


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## dessertmaker

Why not add a buttload more dirt, cover it in chicken wire to keep it from washing out too badly for the short term and planting some centipede grass on it for the long term?


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## Sammyk

Great idea about the infrared thermometer, we are checking them out now. Sunday we will insulate the door, the front walls and the ceiling. We were running a de-humidifier because the humidity was pretty high but then we realized the de-humidifier was raising the temp inside so we turned that off.
As pjd mentioned we have very high humidity here in the summer so while I did order the "ventless" air conditioner from Amazon, I will most likely have to return it. We had planned to vent it into the bottom drain.

While we do not think of this project as a lot of drama there are "bugs" we are trying to work out.

AND we do appreciate all the thoughts and ideas, so thank you very much for your input.


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## Sammyk

What kind of insulation would we use on the outside?


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## jswordy

http://www.foamular.com/foam/products/

There are different manufacturers, but this is a good list to get an idea. You just need it on top, or if possible on top and the top half of the sides. The bottom should be in cool dirt. Look at Under Slab and General.


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## whackfol

Have you considered spray foam insulation on the inside? The r value is incredible for the time and money and it solves most vapor issues. I installed a wine cellar in a poured wall basement 15 years ago. I planned to add refrigeration, but wanted to minimize the btu's required. I framed up the wall with 2x6 studs and then hired a spray foam applicator to spray the cavities. For the ceiling, I installed a couple of 2" sheets of foam insulation to the ceiling, framed under them with 2x6's and then foamed the voids. As mentioned I still have 1500 btu's of refrigeration. This is well below the 4,500 btu's had I done what, at the time, was typical for wine cellars. Most of what I read indicated that the first few feet under ground mattered most. Under this level the temperature is fairly constant. In my area it is 3 feet. I'm not sure how your part below and part above ground cellar would be calculated.

Love your project, I hope you can get it balanced.


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## seth8530

Sammyk said:


> What kind of insulation would we use on the outside?


Dirt is a pretty good insulter that does not look out of place when used outside (;


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## DaveL

2 inch hard board insulation. you can cut it with a razor knife. Cover with dirt


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## Arne

If you go with a mini split air conditioner you will have to have a small hole to run the lines in. Then there will be a condensing unit set someplace outside. Also need a drain and enough power to handle the unit. These will cost more than the portables, but should outlast them by a lot. Have to get with a local a.c. contractor and bet he can help you out. First thing tho, I would get the insulation. Like Seth says, get a radient barrier of some kind on the top and sides where they are not very far into the ground. Like John said, most any kind of refrigeration unit you can find will have a bounce factor in the temp. Has to have some difference between off and on or it would just be a constant start and stop. Good luck with it, Arne.


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## jswordy

I respectfully disagree that you cannot add more dirt. If by washing down, you mean it will be piled up higher than your door height and so the pile will wash down in front there, simply add railroad ties as a retaining wall across the top of the structure, stretching out on either side, until you reach your desired dirt height and the back fill to them - just as the dummy (er, contractor) did on the walkway to the door. Alternate your joints so it is strong and nail with large spikes. Anchor with rebar.

If it were mine, I would rent a Bobcat, scrape back all the dirt off the top, get 6 inches or more of rigid foamboard across the top and extending a few inches to a foot over on each side (and down the upper portions of the sides if you can) , build my railroad tie retaining wall in front above the doorway, and pile 4 feet of dirt on there. Better yet, get the dummy (er, contractor) to do it in lieu of a lawsuit. And closely watch their every move.

This did not turn out to fit your expected usage nor the contractor's expressed warranty for fitness, so I'd be seeing a lawyer about financial remedies. I have had my share of jack-legs masquerading as craftsmen, and a letter from a lawyer usually is sufficient to get them onboard.

Alternately, you could scrape all the dirt off the top and about a foot on the sides. Then construct a conventional roof on top, using foamboard insulation inside it and Reflectix (http://www.reflectixinc.com - if you look you will see they have WINE ROOM listed) double-bubble insulation stapled to the rafter with the shiny side UP. Then you put purlins on the rafters and add a reflective metal roof. It turns out so that the Reflectix is on the rafters, then the purlins allow a 1-inch airspace between it and the steel of the roof. AMAZING heat reflective properties. I had this installed on my house to hold down AC bills. Makes a 15-20 degree difference. Of course, I had to stand there and tell the installers how I wanted it done. They had never heard of it! Argued and cussed me. I said, who's paying for the job? That got it done. I already had this on my metal shop building (which I built myself), again a huge cooling effect. 

I guess my advice is not to just settle for something inadequate. Your ideas for passive cooling were sound, so get it so they will work!


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## Sammyk

We are pizzed! Temp the past few days has been 71 and humidity at 84%. We only go in early in the morning to check the temperature because it is so hot here we are afraid to open the door. We did put a silver colored tarp up over the entrance and it did not make much difference. We have been watering a few times a day because the top is planted in vinca vine and all the surrounding area in rye grass. So we are keeping the entire area wet. We also planted a bunch of trees. The grass is germinating now.

The heat sensing gun arrived today and we think we found the culprit. It is warmest on the south side and that varies from 73 to 75 at 5pm today. The wall towards the back was 69 degrees.

Our plan now is to find a contractor that does spray foam insulation and insulate the door, ceiling and walls with spray foam, the entire inside. It is way too much work to remove all the plants from the roof, scrape back the dirt, rent a bobcat and move more dirt to the top. We are into our peak business time for shipping and we do not have any extra spare time. Initially I told the contractor it absolutely had to be finished before we reached 70 degrees and now we are in the upper 80's.

He has not been back with the final bill which is probably around $3,000. We do not plan to pay him another cent because it did not fit our specifications. Should he pursue the issue we will go to court and as it is we will deduct the cost of having the spray foam insulation applied or what ever we need to do to make the cellar functional. Or if we have to make further corrections.

We hate this situation we are in but if he had researched like he said he would or read the notes I emailed him from the forum, I think everything would have been OK. We were very clear that the cellar had to have at least 3' of dirt on the top.

The biggest problem is near the front of the cellar there is only about 8 inches of dirt on top and toward the back it probably does slope down to 2 to 2.5' of dirt. 

To add to the more dirt and ties to the top will make the cellar stand out like a soar thumb in the area and very obvious from the road that there is a structure there.

I am guessing that he knows how pizzed we are and that is why he has not been back for final payment. He does know that the one day it was 71 degrees in the cellar and we were very upset.


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## GreginND

I would think if you get a good bed of grass established over that dirt it would go a long way toward cooling things down. That soil is dark and absorbing a lot of heat from the sun.

I am not sure why you are hesitant to scrape off the top. Sure, you'll lose some plants, etc. But it is still the easiest option to add more insulation outside. If you do spray inside you will lose interior space. You may want to consult someone who knows about thermal protection. Perhaps you only need to spray the ceiling and door/front.


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## Runningwolf

I agree. I would not want to spray the inside and lose space. Why do you go inside to check the temp? I bought a wireless remote outdoor thermometer for in my freezer and I always know the temp without going in it.Go pick one up at walmart for less than $20. You could even get a wired one and hang it up outside the door and just close the door on the wire. Remote is the better way.

Are you sure you have a case against the contractor? You said you handed him a bunch of notes from people you don't know and don't know there backgrounds, Did you have a written contract with him showing the exact specifications? Or did you do everything on a handshake and he deliver the main product as asked. The entire project seemed a little rushed to me. I'm just going off of what you posted and there may be documentation you didn't mention.


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## Sammyk

We contacted him back in late January or some time in February. I would have to go back and check my posts. It was to be completed in March when we typically reach 80 degrees. We had a much colder spring than normal, the coldest on record with a frost on Mother's Day. So time was on his side.
One stipulation was the cellar was to have 3' of dirt on all sides. All research said a minium of 3' of dirt. As I mentioned the front only has about 8 inches of dirt on top and the temperature sensor gun confirms that is where the problem.

Not contract, just a gentleman's agreement so to speak. But I do have documentation of the email I sent that said all sides would have a minimum of 3' of dirt on all sidea.

At this point we are not concerned about loosing space inside but more concerned about the temperature inside and 71 degrees is not acceptable. We have plenty of room inside and are willing to give up that space to get the desired temperature which is mid 60's.

Can we achieve the desired temperature? I don't know until I contact contractors who do spray foam in the morning.

We could have saved a bunch of money by going with out first option to air condition the upstairs bedroom with an window air-conditioner and sealing that room shut. We thought long term the cellar was the best solution.


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## Sammyk

Dan we did buy a wireless remote thermometer and it would not pick up the temperature in the cellar. Maybe all the dirt made the difference? Whatever it does not work and will not pick up the cellar temperature. So the heat sensing gun as suggested here was a better option.


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## Julie

Even without a contract and just a "Gentleman's Agreement" you as a consumer do have rights, especially with the documentation you have but I know all you want is to have this completed. Just remember you can report this company to the Better Business Bureau.


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## pjd

My reservations about this project started with your very first post.



Sammyk said:


> We had an offer we could not refuse!
> 
> Offers that you cannot refuse usually mean they cannot deliver what is promised. As a contractor who has a reputation that is unmarred, it is frustrating when jobs go to the lowest bidder only because he was the cheapest. My experience is you get what you pay for.
> 
> I really am not bitter about this because the low priced contractors are just building inventory of projects for me to fix!


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## DaveL

Instead of rairoad ties on top perhaps stacking landscape stones to allow for more dirt. Place some bushes in front of the new hill. OR your the water feature guy right Put a pond on top with a cascading water feature down the front and around the side to a pond in the back yard. Then write the whole thing off as a business expense after you take a few pics and post them 
Another idea. Drill a hole in the lower pond dawn as deep as you can sink a pipe with a lining to cool the water. Then pump it back to the top from the bottom of the pipe.


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## whackfol

You've invested a lot. Before moving forward with anything short of a simple cheap try, I suggest hiring an engineer to evaluate the heat load and make suggestions. You'll probably save time and money.


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## seth8530

Did someone say engineer!?

Meh, lol not like Nuke E's know anything about insulation.

Pretty much, the story that we all know is that you do not have enough thermal insulation and now you have to deal with it one way or the other. The question is how do you plan on doing that.


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## Sammyk

He was a former neighbor but still lives fairly close to us and the part of the deal was a barter that was approved by our CPA, on the up and up and completely legal. We do a lot of bartering with both our attorney and our CPA because we have a desirable product.

We plan to call spray foam contractors today and see what we can come up with. Our thoughts are a good layer of foam on the exposed outside areas and the walls and ceiling inside. We would have the railroad ties sprayed too if possible because of the smell of the creosote. Don't know for sure until we get some quotes.


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## Runningwolf

Spray foam is effected by uv rays and should not be exposed to sunlight. At least in the past.


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## seth8530

If it is that could be fixed by first putting a reflector on top of the foam right?


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## FABulousWines

You sure are getting a lot of help on this project, Sammy! I really can't add anything more useful but just wanted to say, I do hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction.

I am still thinking about what I want to do. Unfortunately the only hilly part of our lot is the front yard and I think the HOA would have something to say about that, LOL.


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## jswordy

pjd said:


> As a contractor who has a reputation that is unmarred, it is frustrating when jobs go to the lowest bidder only because he was the cheapest. My experience is you get what you pay for.



Let me categorically say that price has absolutely no relationship to quality of work. I know this through my own experience. That is why things get done so slowly on my place - I do as many of them myself as I can so they are done right!

Again, there is near-zero relationship between price quoted or paid and the quality of the resulting job. None. For my roof, for example, spec'ed it carefully and I chose a locally recommended roofing company that came in with the highest bid. They damaged my soffits. Got them to fix that with delays. Then it started to rain. It leaked. They waited 2 rainy weeks to come out to fix the leak, which was major. Water was pouring out from inside my soffits. By then, I had already crawled up on top and fixed it myself where their slipshod work was deficient. This was a metal roof! Should never have leaked. NEVER!

Then there was my shop, which I builtall myself except the floor. I had that poured by a well-recommended concrete contractor. Even the concrete company said he was good. It cracked before it was even dry and I found myself topping it to eliminate low spots and defects. I can go on and on with my experiences, which is why I do as damn much as I can myself. If I do hire it done, I never pick the lowest bidder. But I have learned the hard and painful way that price is irrelevant. A high-paid jack-leg performs as poorly as a low-paid one, he just gets more for it.

The roofer's pay was withheld and they got a letter from my lawyer. Which brings me to my second point. If you want satisfaction, do not pay a dime and GET A LAWYER!

Sammy, I would not settle for an air conditioned room, which is not near as good on several fronts as passive cooling. I would make that thing right, the way I wanted it to be. The solutions have been offered. All you have to do is pick one. If it were me, I'd scrape back, insulate the fire out of it, then add dirt with the retaining wall in front. If you put 6" of rigid board on top and upper sides and you cover with 2 feet of dirt, I'll bet that does it. 

I'd take my heat gun and measure the heat after adding all that foam board, before backfilling. Betcha the foam alone makes a huge diff.

Far as the humidity, as I said early on, it's gonna be high. That's why even storm shelters have a vent. You can add a power line and dehumidifier to take care of that if you wish.

Ideas...pix... http://www.houzz.com/underground-wine-cellar


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## Sammyk

*We found the heat source!*

The dehumidifier was a source of heat! Once we turned off the dehumidifier we lost a few degrees of heat.

They make bags to hang in closets where humidity is a problem. I can't remember what they are called but we will pick up some tomorrow. As it collects the humidity the bag fills with water. Then you throw them away and replace. Not expensive at all.

Let me tell you how much we love that darn heat sensing gun!

WE found the culprit for the heat source. The Railroad ties! The heat sensing gun showed 150 degrees in many places EXCEPT where we had the tarp for shade. We have 2 tarps up for a temporary solution. The rr ties under the tarp were 80 degrees. So to shade on the front side the south side seems the logical thing.

The thing about the rr ties, we hated them from the start, hated the look and hated the smell. We were going to try to stucco the ties in the fall when it is cooler. The rr ties were never in the "deal" to begin with. He brought them in and had his crew install them while we were gone. By the time we got home, they had a good start on them and since they had been cut, there was no returning them.

We will ask at Lowe's tomorrow about a paint that will work on the ties. Or we will buy light colored canvas and drape it over the ties as a temporary fix.

I did talk to a foam spray installer and was shocked at the price. He did suggest insulation foam on the inside when I told him what we were trying to accomplish. So we plan to buy the foam core sheets tomorrow and get them up inside.

These are all temporary fixes until it cools down in the fall and we can make more permanent changes that will be long term.


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## seth8530

I do not think that the ties are really at fault.. Yes, they might be hot but I think that they are just a sign of the fact that it is hot outside. I think you have a much bigger issue with the overall radiant heat from the sun that is convecting its way into your cellar through the relatively small layer of dirt you have on the roof.


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## Sammyk

I don't recall, will have to check with the heat sensor gun again but it was not overly warm on top. The plants have filled in really nicely on top and not much ground is showing anymore.


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## novalou

Out of curiosity and to help our buddy Sammy out, I checked into the R values of soil and concrete. 

I was pretty shocked that the values of both were very low, r=0.25 per inch of soil, so an R value of 3 for 12 inches of soil.

R value of 4" of concrete, is about 0.44.

I assume that you have a roof R value of 3.44. 2 inches of Owens Corning Fomular Foam board alone is R 10. Adding this will increase the insulating value by a factor of 4.5.

As far as the rail road ties go, remember they are dark. The ties absorb the UV and give off infrared. When you shoot them for a temp during the day, it is also picking up the heat given off by the sunlight via infrared. Paint them, stucco them, make them lighter by whatever means necessary.


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## Sammyk

novalou, thank you! There is 4 inches of concrete on top.


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## seth8530

Yeah, something else to consider is that when doing overall R value calculations you need to treat them like resistors in a circuit.. So if their is an alternative route for the heat to get in you treat the two different paths for heat to get in as parallel resistors (add the inverses and take the inverse of the sum) while if their is only 1 path you treat them like series resistors ( Ie add them up). So what this means is that you really need to make sure that you make sure that you do not have any major weak spots for heat to get in else it will pretty much negate the places that are very well insulated.


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## Runningwolf

seth8530 said:


> Yeah, something else to consider is that when doing overall R value calculations you need to treat them like resistors in a circuit.. So if their is an alternative route for the heat to get in you treat the two different paths for heat to get in as parallel resistors (add the inverses and take the inverse of the sum) while if their is only 1 path you treat them like series resistors ( Ie add them up). So what this means is that you really need to make sure that you make sure that you do not have any major weak spots for heat to get in else it will pretty much negate the places that are very well insulated.



WTF did you just say? HUH? Seth, it's hard to take you serious with that crown on and not laugh. :O Whatever you said it sounds good to me!


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## cimbaliw

Is there an opportunity to use a small vertical geothermal system here?


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## vacuumpumpman

Sounds like Seth - majors in Math !! My son is the same way - I tell him that is why GOD gave us 10 toes and 10 fingers so we can count in tens -LOL

doesn't a small vertical geothermal system produce alot of moisture also ?


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## novalou

seth8530 said:


> Yeah, something else to consider is that when doing overall R value calculations you need to treat them like resistors in a circuit.. So if their is an alternative route for the heat to get in you treat the two different paths for heat to get in as parallel resistors (add the inverses and take the inverse of the sum) while if their is only 1 path you treat them like series resistors ( Ie add them up). So what this means is that you really need to make sure that you make sure that you do not have any major weak spots for heat to get in else it will pretty much negate the places that are very well insulated.



You are forgetting area. Even if there is a weak spot, if the area is small, the heat transfer will be small.

In Sammy's case, not nearly enough insulation on the roof of the cellar.


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## DaveL

DaveL said:


> Sammy and I beat the frost line to death. We disagree. Thats OK. We still talk wine and if we ever drink a beer together it would be a fun topic. lol
> The cellar is looking good Sammy.
> Maybe when backfilling you might consider placing 2 inch hardboard insulation around the top 2 feet of the walls against the wall and over the rroof concrete under the dirt. When it is warm it will help keep the cellar cool. 4-5 inches of dirt and 6 inches of concrete is a relatively low R value I believe.



Hmmm Ithought this conversation sounded familiar.


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## Sammyk

Dave I did pass the information on to the contractor about the insulation early on. For some reason he seemed bent on doing things his way and in his own time. I took him 3 weeks just to get the darn door caulked. We originally thought the heat was coming from the cracks around the door. He was supposed to caulk around the door and fix the door because it was hard to open because it was "sticking". We fixed the door yesterday and changed the locks so it no longer sticks.

We do greatly appreciate all the suggestions, researching and help from the forum. You guys have been the best!


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## seth8530

Runningwolf said:


> WTF did you just say? HUH? Seth, it's hard to take you serious with that crown on and not laugh. :O Whatever you said it sounds good to me!



Hehe, I try not to take myself to seriously ya know lol. Now bow... Your king commands it!



vacuumpumpman said:


> Sounds like Seth - majors in Math !! My son is the same way - I tell him that is why GOD gave us 10 toes and 10 fingers so we can count in tens -LOL
> 
> doesn't a small vertical geothermal system produce alot of moisture also ?



Engineering not math (; heh the base 10 finger toe system is why god loves the metric system and hates the imperial system of units. Its great that your son is comfortable with math though.. It can really help you out in a lot of useful things.



novalou said:


> You are forgetting area. Even if there is a weak spot, if the area is small, the heat transfer will be small.
> 
> In Sammy's case, not nearly enough insulation on the roof of the cellar.



Yes, I do believe that you are correct about area being important. One thing to remember is that cross sectional area is what matters when coming up with the overall heat resistance from multuple heat paths.. I wish I had my book with me.... However, the point remains if you have a bunch of small weakly resisted paths for heat to get in whose summed area is considerable it will hose your insulation job... 

Point is, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you do a really good job insulating one part of the cellar and then a not so hot job on say the roof or somewhere else.


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## DaveL

Sammyk said:


> Dave I did pass the information on to the contractor about the insulation early on. For some reason he seemed bent on doing things his way and in his own time. I took him 3 weeks just to get the darn door caulked. We originally thought the heat was coming from the cracks around the door. He was supposed to caulk around the door and fix the door because it was hard to open because it was "sticking". We fixed the door yesterday and changed the locks so it no longer sticks.
> 
> We do greatly appreciate all the suggestions, researching and help from the forum. You guys have been the best!



I know, just rying to bring some levity to your misery. Just remember you still have the beginning of a nice cellar, just need to tune it up a bit


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## jswordy

cimbaliw said:


> Is there an opportunity to use a small vertical geothermal system here?



That thought crossed my mind too, but they are expensive to install. My BIL is a HVAC contractor and does install these, so I know. They pay off well but high initial cost.

It may have been possible to install a cold water loop when the unit was under construction. A loop of PEX is made in the ground deep and water is pumped through it by a small pump so it then cools a radiator in the building. Work the same as a/c and does remove humidity.

That's all over now. I still say properly insulating the upper 2-3 feet of the sides and the top of the structure will do the trick. I think many people, myself included, were talking about insulation early on in the planning. Sammy's far better off with a passive system that requires zero upkeep, expense and maintenance if it's possible.


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## jswordy

Sammyk said:


> They make bags to hang in closets where humidity is a problem. I can't remember what they are called but we will pick up some tomorrow. As it collects the humidity the bag fills with water. Then you throw them away and replace. Not expensive at all.



You can also get this as a bucket-type arrangement, which has more capacity. Example: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029EGUNG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 Still, it is an expense. The humidity may actually decrease after the concrete is fully cured. Did the contractor lay down a plastic base before pouring the floor? Did he spray-seal the outside of the walls? If he did those both, you have a good chance the humidity will decrease as the concrete cures, which may take up to a year. 

If he did nothing on the floor, but just poured onto the dirt or a sand or gravel base, that concrete will wick and pass through humidity forever. I know this stuff because I have built garages for collector cars, where wicked humidity through the floor can rust and destroy valuable autos.


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## Sammyk

He did put down plastic but we don't recall if it was on top or under the gravel. The outside was painted with seal coat with a brush. Something weird I just thought of. They tarred the outside walls and then put plastic over it. There was rain after and there was moisture under the plastic where they and not back filled the sides with dirt. He did not think it was a problem but we did. I am thinking it was the top 2' that had moisture on the plastic and that had not yet been back-filled. Now I wonder if that is the source of the humidity inside.


----------



## Sammyk

Jim the Damp Rid was what I was thinking. And I forgot to get it while we were out today. We did get the foam core, 2 inches thick. Only had room for enough for the front wall in the van so we will have to make another trip. The fellow at Lowe's said we could always add another 3/4 inch if we have hot spots as detected by the heat sensing gun.


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## Sammyk

*We need to ask for help again*

We are using "liquid nails" to try to place the foam core board and it is not holding. We tried placing the sheets both ways; shiny side to the cement and Styrofoam to the cement and it will not hold. How the heck do you put that stuff up.

Not going well at all here, the wine cellar was 74 degrees this morning so it is gradually picking up heat.


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## Runningwolf

Liquid nails has always worked well for me. Did you try bracing it after standing the sheets up on the wall. You could have easily put braces from wall to wall with some 1x3's.


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## Sammyk

*We are about to give up*

Have most of the insulation up. Temp this morning was 75 degrees in the cellar.

Outside it was 64 at 6:30am so we setup 2 fans inside, one to suck out the warm air and one to blow in the cooler air.

It occurred to us this morning because there is no vent, the foam core could very well be trapping the warm air inside.

It has been one problem after another and many trips to Lowe's. First for different glue and more sheets of foam core. Then a diamond tip drill bit. The ceiling foam board is still propped up this morning with "t's" made out of wood. Even a diamond tip drill bit would not drill through the corrugated steel roof. The glue does not appear to be holding on the steel.

We are now at the point of giving up the idea of having a wine cellar.


----------



## novalou

Sammyk said:


> Have most of the insulation up. Temp this morning was 75 degrees in the cellar.
> 
> Outside it was 64 at 6:30am so we setup 2 fans inside, one to suck out the warm air and one to blow in the cooler air.
> 
> It occurred to us this morning because there is no vent, the foam core could very well be trapping the warm air inside.
> 
> It has been one problem after another and many trips to Lowe's. First for different glue and more sheets of foam core. Then a diamond tip drill bit. The ceiling foam board is still propped up this morning with "t's" made out of wood. Even a diamond tip drill bit would not drill through the corrugated steel roof. The glue does not appear to be holding on the steel.
> 
> We are now at the point of giving up the idea of having a wine cellar.



Diamond tip drill bits are made to cut through concrete, not steel. A regular steel drill bit is what you need to drill through the corrugated steel.

Don't give up, you are almost there. Once you get your inside temperature stable, you'll be fine. Avoid opening the door when it is hot outside.


----------



## Sammyk

Thanks for the tip novalou!

We have been opening the door early in the morning and late at night and using two fans one in each direction with the door open to try to cool it down. But it is right back up to 75 degrees when we open late at night.

Maybe Dan was right, turn it into a smoke house.......

We are thinking it needs some kind of vent and maybe a small fan in the front to vent the heat out. There WAS supposed to be a vent! It will be a real bugger to drill a hole through the cement blocks. And of course the only place is on the front side which faces south. We do have a gray tarp draped over the RR ties to offer some shade in the heat of the day. The tarp covers about 10' and it is a little cooler under it. Anyone have any ideas about a vent and how to get it into the blocks? They were core filled with cement.

We had a mess to clean up as 11 bottles popped their corks. Co2, ones made before the all in one pump. They were still fizzing when we went in this morning.


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## dessertmaker

If you are going to do a vent to the exterior then you may as well add a portable AC unit. When working properly an AC unit will provide at least 14 degrees cooler air than what is going into the return. I realize some people on here have discouraged you from going this route but we had a large package unit from lowes placed in our training facility in south Louisiana and now all wear jackets to in service. It cools our uninsulated classroom in a metal gym that was 80-85 degrees in the summer before the unit was installed.


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## Stressbaby

I just read this entire thread. Sorry to hear about your troubles Sammy. 

I don't know about cellars, my knowledge base on this sort of heat transfer stuff comes from experience with greenhouse foundations. 

I may have missed it, but what part of the walls are you adding insulation to? It seems to me that if you are insulating the inside walls at any point below the line where the soil outside is cooler than the inside of your cellar, the point at which the temp differential favors movement of heat out of the cellar, then you are exacerbating your problem. Along the bottom, the soil temp on the other side of the wall is probably 50-55F and in this case favors heat transfer out of the cellar, which is what you are after. Same with the floor.

If done on the outside, then you might be able to leverage the thermal mass of the blocks and concrete to stabilize the temps a bit.


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## Sammyk

We have commercial greenhouses too so we do know how they work. We insulated the south wall inside and the ceiling. We have 2 fans in there right now because the outside temp is 64. It was 75 when we went in there this morning. Two fans running, one pulling hot air out and one drawing cooler air in, but it will only drop the temperature a couple of degrees. The next plan is to insulate the front, the south side. We are waiting on a carpenter to come by. It will take a lot of cuts to get it covered with core foam and then plywood.

The problem is coming from the top because he did not put the 3' of dirt on top as the plan called for. The side walls have 4' to 6' of dirt except at the top front where it is about 6 inches deep. The back of the top does have 3'.

We need to figure out a way to knock a hole in the front for into the cement blocks for ventilation and to put a fan to draw the heat out. The cellar is air tight so once the heat builds up there is no way for it to escape.

This is based on our greenhouse experience where we have huge fans blowing the heat out in the summer and then in the winter blowing the heat from the furnace to the back of the greenhouse. So we what to do to fix the problem but are not for sure just how to do it.


----------



## Stressbaby

So the insulation inside is going on the ceiling?


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## Sammyk

No the ceiling and front side are already insulated inside. The 2 fans dropped the temp to 73 which about what it has been doing the past few hours. It is up to 68 degrees outside and we will shut the fans off when we hit about 72 degrees. We will close the door and not go back in until tonight when the outside air cools down. We are thinking of putting a screen door on the inside so we could leave the fans run all night long, worried about rats and mice getting inside the open door.


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## DaveL

Sammy 
When you use your infrared thermometer what is the floor temp? The bottom 2 foot of the walls? I think you need ins around the top 2 ft as well. don't rush to cut a vent. Once insulated properly it will cool. Remember the reason a cellar wroks properly in the first place is the slow transfer. Give it a while. Once you have it properly insulated get a block of dry ice and set it in the middle to catch up. check it reg though as it might drop the Temp more than you want.


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## Sammyk

Stats 9:30am
Outside cloudy overcast rain on the way
Outside temp 68
Fans are off now

Humidity 88% noticing what looks like mold/mildew on bottles may just be dust from foam core installation

Back floor 72
Front floor 71.8
Back Wall 2' up 73.2
Ceiling 74.8
Side Wall West 2' up 75.3 4 to 6' of dirt on this side except top
Ceiling 73.6

Dave we will try the dry ice in a few days, need to foam in between the foam core because it took a lot of cutting around electrical outlet and from piecing pieces to fit. Have to wait until we can turn off electricity and keep door open so there is daylight to see where to apply the spray foam.


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## DaveL

Sammy
Just out of curiousity I went into my basement and shot the areas we discussed. The fully backfilled wall is 10" thick solid concrete. floor is 60 wall at top is 64. Top 1 foot of wall is exposed to outside. This is an unfinnished addition above with no insulation installed at all and open stairs leading up to first floor. 
I think if you get the walls insulated 2 ft below roof line. Consider adding another 2 inches of insulation to the ceiling. Then get it cooled down in mass. Put the Dry ice up on a top shelf. You'll be fine. 
Only problem you need to watch is your dry ice will lower the wine temp much faster than the concrete.


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## Sammyk

Checked out dry ice and you cannot use it in an enclosed area. Dry ice rule #1 is that you must use dry ice in a well ventilated area. As dry ice warms up, it releases carbon dioxide gas in to the air. Too much carbon dioxide gas can cause asphyxiation and even death. Always use dry ice in a well ventilated area.

We bought light colored paint, just a quart of exterior paint to see how it will work on the RR ties. The other day when we checked the ties, it was 150 degrees, no kidding!

The fellow a Lowe's thought we might need 2 layers on the ceiling so that is most likely what we will do. At least the 2nd layer will go up easier then the first layer did on the corrugated steel sheets.

Thanks for the help Dave.


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## novalou

Sammyk said:


> Stats 9:30am
> Outside cloudy overcast rain on the way
> Outside temp 68
> Fans are off now
> 
> Humidity 88% noticing what looks like mold/mildew on bottles may just be dust from foam core installation
> 
> Back floor 72
> Front floor 71.8
> Back Wall 2' up 73.2
> Ceiling 74.8
> Side Wall West 2' up 75.3 4 to 6' of dirt on this side except top
> Ceiling 73.6
> 
> Dave we will try the dry ice in a few days, need to foam in between the foam core because it took a lot of cutting around electrical outlet and from piecing pieces to fit. Have to wait until we can turn off electricity and keep door open so there is daylight to see where to apply the spray foam.



I'm wondering why the floor is so warm. Is it conducting heat from the walls?

Part of me is thinking it might still be curing. It's only been a few weeks since its been "done" and it has been closed up since.


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## seth8530

novalou said:


> I'm wondering why the floor is so warm. Is it conducting heat from the walls?
> 
> Part of me is thinking it might still be curing. It's only been a few weeks since its been "done" and it has been closed up since.


'From those readings you can see that the place is the hottest where the insulation is the weakest.. Fix those spots and see if that helps you out any. ....Could the concrete be keeping the place warm?? Hmm, I do not find it improbable that the curing could be producing enough heat to have an impact on the overall room temperature.. Especially in such a small volume. However, I suspect it is not the worst of the problem.


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## DaveL

I pour concrete for a living. For the first few days after a pour covered with concrete blankets when you pick them up steam arises. ACI requires 50f at the surface and they achieve that with blankets in 20f weather in the midatlantic. 
BUT 1 thing we keep fogetting is these are block walls not concrete. While they may be filled they are more porous than solid concrete and will not have the same thermal mass. 
Also I suspect by the shoddy workmanship of the contractor that they didn't do the best job of filling the blocks. A regular concrete mix will not consolidate fully in this situation. A grout mix is required. All of this is probably allowing more heat transfer from the outside given the lack of dirt.
The floor temp is curious though. I suspect it is being warmed from the air from above.


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## seth8530

Ahh, nice to hear some input from a concrete guy. Very interesting info you have there.


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## Sammyk

I would have to go back and read the timelines because I no longer remember them. Keep in mind the work took place over many weeks because the workers generally only worked here one day a week.
The concrete guys only do concrete (sub contractors). While we don't know what they used, it was a different mixture of cement when they core filled because a cement truck brought the cement when they core filled. The cement for the blocks was mixed in a small mixer. We have to believe that they knew what they were doing.

For whatever reason it is holding the heat. We had cloudy overcast weather with lots of rain the past 2 days and the air temp inside is staying at 75 degrees.
There is mold or mildew (not sure which it is) on the bottles. We brought up some carboys to rack today that were in large Rubbermaid totes and there were "spots" on the outside of the glass and around the carboy opening.

We had the same problem mold/mildew when we stored carboys under the house last summer and the temperature under the house pretty much stayed in the mid-60's all summer.

Now we are thinking we will have to install an air-conditioner by cutting a hole in the front side. We have not hit 90 yet and we will soon and with some days close to 100 degrees. Lots of rain and more on the way from the tropical storm coming up from FL. Right now we are getting the rain that moved east from the tornadoes out west.


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## DaveL

The motar for the blocks was mixed in a mixer (sand cement water) The concrete comes on a truck, or grout. ( of course the concrete could also be mixed in the mixer on site just add rocks) . 
Interesting that it holds heat when it is cooler outside. If there is nothing generating heat then it is working you just need to get the temp down now that its insulated. 
I wonder what the avg temp of your soil is 3ft deep. Do you have an auger? Maybe post hole diggers? Dig a hole 3 ft deep, place a thermometer in the ground not a surface reading,read it then stuff a blanket or two in the hole and check it later.


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## Sammyk

*Dry Ice*

Dry ice $2.00 a pound and after explaining our situation he figured we would need 200 to 250 pound and it would last 3 to 4 hours. He did not think it would cool the cellar down that much. Of course his thoughts were pure speculation.

We seem to have come to a standstill and run out options.


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## seth8530

Sammyk said:


> Dry ice $2.00 a pound and after explaining our situation he figured we would need 200 to 250 pound and it would last 3 to 4 hours. He did not think it would cool the cellar down that much. Of course his thoughts were pure speculation.
> 
> We seem to have come to a standstill and run out options.



Give me a bit of time and I can try and crunch out how much dry ice will cool the room.. What are the internal dimensions of the cellar?


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## Sammyk

About 9' 9" by 9' 9" taking off for 2" foam. Height is about 8' 10 x 10 x 8 is probably good enough.


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## seth8530

I am not understanding the height dimension you just gave me.. sorry,


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## Sammyk

Outside was 10x10x8. Take off for cement blocks and 2 inches of foam core on ceiling.


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## ibglowin

Sammyk said:


> We seem to have come to a standstill and run out options.




I am sorry what happened to this option?


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## seth8530

ohh, I understand what you said now.. Thanks


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## seth8530

Alright, so some things to think about. 1 Kg of dry ice takes 571 Kilo joules of energy to turn into gas. 1Kg of ice takes 334 Kilo joules of energy to turn into water. Your room will take about 27 Kilo joules of energy to raise 1 degree C. If you were to somehow instantly transfer the heat energy of the room into the dry ice to turn it all into gas your room temperature would instantly drop by about 20 degrees C ( Unfortunately this would be nearly impossible to accomplish) But the important thing to realize here is that both dry ice and standard ice can absorb an incredible amount of energy and thus help regulate the temperature. 

I would not use Dry ice.. I feel like it would be rather expensive and also a possible CO2 hazard. Instead if you want to try something out just for fun get a trashcan full of ice and place it in your room with a fan blowing over the ice to improve the heat transfer. This might make an effective temporary solution until you can manage to get some sort of heat removal system and or better insulation installed. If I had my heat transfer book with me I would try and do a more relevant evaluation where I would estimate the rate of heat transfer from the surrounding air into the dry ice and thus the rate of cooling of your room.. Sorry, I do not have those resources available to me right now.


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## DirtyDawg10

Have you thought about what you are going to do when January and February roll around? Sorry to hear you have your hands full with this project.


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## jswordy

I store my wine in Rubbermaid totes in a dugout root cellar under my house that is entirely open at the top to the open crawlspace. The crawlspace vents are open in summer. And yet it never gets over 68 degrees there. Never. It hits 95-100 every summer here.

Just like the cellar you made, mine has a doorway leading outside, but my storm shelter type doorway is at a 45 degree angle and is faced with metal, so it actually should get hotter than yours. My doorway just closes by its weight, it is not insulated or sealed. Yet it is nice and cool in the root cellar.

Why? Because the rock-sided house sitting on top is a huge insulator that keeps the sun from beating down. What would fix your cellar? A huge insulator that keeps the sun from beating down. Make it foamboard layered on the OUTSIDE of the structure, make it a thicker layer of dirt, or even also make it a gazebo built on a raised platform directly above the cellar and much wider than the cellar itself - but an insulator will have to be made before it is fixed.

That's the essential problem.

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/efficient-earth-sheltered-homes

See 2.3 here, especially...

http://earthshelter.sustainablesources.com


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## Sammyk

ibglowin We talked to many air conditioning folks including one on line in CA. They were selling one Amazon I referenced a few pages back. I did place the order but cancelled it after talking to them. They all said the same thing the floor drain will not work for a vent. They also said they doubt we can get it from 75 to mid 60's.
We are not too worried about winter. If it is too cold it could be moved back to the closet upstairs where we kept the wine last winter. It is a huge walk in closet that stayed around 64 all winter long with the closet door closed, the heat register in the room closed and the bedroom door closed. That closet is above an unheated garage. Pain in the rear to move all that wine up the hill and 2 flights of stairs to an upstairs bedroom. We had to hire help to get it all down in the cellar to begin with as are not able to lift much with both of us having torn rotatory cuffs in opposite shoulders.

A gazebo place on top of the cellar would look like a sore thumb sticking out and very much out of place. with the surrounding area.

Now we wished we had gone with what we originally thought. Air condition that room but we thought long term it would be cheaper to have a wine cellar built.

WE have looked at so many options that we have run out of ideas.
The crawl space is not easy accessible, one has to crawl on hands and knees.


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## seth8530

Sammy, JS is correct, you need to come up with some way to insulate it. Insulation really is the key to this.. I feel like the best thing for you to do is bite the bullet and put more dirt on top of this guy.. Either that or some sort of insulating structure that goes over your celler.. Perhaps a place to store all your nice cool outdoor wine toys? I good AC solution might also work.. But it is an active system and passive really is the way to go whenever you can.


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## jswordy

Your original idea and concept was sound. But every single concern I raised if it were not planned out right at the beginning has happened. Sammy, there is only one true option that is going to fix it, and you know it and I know it, but you are not going to do it. 

http://earthshelter.sustainablesources.com



> *2.3	Earth-covering*
> 
> An earth-covered roof should be limited to no more than three feet of soil.
> 
> Twelve to twenty-four inches (adequate for plant growth ) is typically used. This is too shallow to effectively insulate the building and is the reason that roof insulation is required.



http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/efficient-earth-sheltered-homes



> *INSULATION*
> Although insulation in an underground building does not need to be as thick as that in a conventional house, it is necessary to make an earthen house comfortable. Insulation is usually placed on the exterior of the house after applying the waterproofing material, so the heat generated, collected, and absorbed within the earth-sheltered envelope is retained inside the building's interior. If insulating outside the wall, a protective layer of board should be added to keep the insulation from contacting the earth.


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## seth8530

I do not think he needs to go as far as to un earth his whole cellar, but perhaps taking the dirt off the roof and insulating that really well and adding more dirt than it had before.


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## Sammyk

*My Question IS*

At 74 to 75 degrees how long will bottled wine last? That is providing it does not go higher in the inside.

We have run out of time. We will be in the 90's this week. There is not enough time to find another contractor that will come in and do the work in a timely manner of adding more RR ties and dirt. Everyone I talked to for the past 2 or 3 weeks did not want the job or was booked up for weeks.

On the side where the RR ties are where the sun is hitting, the west side temp is 107 on the ties. The east side where the RR ties is 92. On the roof where the the dirt is temp ranges from 88 where there is the most dirt to the front where where it is 92 and the least amount of dirt. Temps at 4pm EST. 

We have pretty much come to the conclusion that if the wine spoils we will take him to court and sue for damages. It is not what we talked about. Does not contain major components; 3' of dirt on the top, a vent on the top. Most did not want to get involved in another contractors mess.

He told us that he did research and he did read the emails with the requirements as suggested here on the forum. I even gave him a link to this forum. I copied and pasted all suggestions here on the forum right from the start to emails to him before and during construction. We do not believe he did any research or read the emails or we would not be in this mess. I believe he lied when he said he did research or he has a MAJOR reading problem and did not understand what he read. Every research I did prior to construction required a minimum of 3' of dirt on top.


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## Julie

Sammyk, how old is your oldest wine? And how old to you expect your wines to get? The reason why I ask is, if you wines are going to be younger than 3 years I really do not believe 70 to 74 is going to hurt them.


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## DaveL

I agree 3ft of dirt is needed. However 10x10x3=300 cuft. /27=11cyx3800lbs yd=41,800 lbs of dirt. HMM Sammy how is the roof constructed? 6"concrete over steel decking? how deep are the ridges in the decking and is the 6" from the top of the steel or bottom? What is the reenforcing in the concrete? #4 or #5 rebar? spacing?
Or WWF or fibers? 
Seth can you help here? I thinking it should be at least true 6" concrete with at least #4s at 12" oc, ea way to support the load unless it is 2 inch corragated metal decking of a heavy guage.
Point being removing the dirt on top and placing 6-10 inches of hardboard insulation then recovering with the dirt may be the best solution and less of an eyesore.
Sammy forget about a contractor, call a local concrete supplier ask there salesman for a local mexican place and finish contractors # Tell him you need 2 guys for 4 hours. should cost about $200 Have them remove the dirt from the top with shovels you supply. Should take them about 1 hour. Place the insulation. simply by laying it in place. Cover with dirt. Problem solved. 
I used to keep a freezer the size of the bed of a nissan truck frozen with meet with a 20lb block of dry ice all day in the summer. Surely it will drop the temp 10 degrees once.


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## DaveL

By the way you owe me some peach wine. I type so slow its pathetic. lol


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## seth8530

Did I agree to send you a bottle of peach? Dave, I am not very comfortable about saying what is and what is not safe considering that I am in nuclear engineering and not structural/civil.. and also considering I do not know the details of the job, the type of concrete, steel, or the density of the soil in that areaa.

But, yea. depending on the water content of the soil the amount of weight on that room can easily vary by tens of thousands of lbs... just by me playing around with some numbers of soil density I found on the net. One soil density which I think might be a little high have me a result yielding 7076 PSI on top of your room with a 3 ft of soil on top. Which does not sound way too crazy to me. This number could vary quite bit depending on what the density of your soil is and how wet it is.


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## Sammyk

Ok there is corrugated steel sheeting with ridges that are 4 to 5 inches deep that are filled with concrete and the best of our recollection with the concrete in the ridges there is 8 to 10 inches total concrete on the roof. No rebar.

Julie the oldest is about 1.5 years, until we drink them or give them to family. We only drink one bottle a night if that because of medications we take.

I have to run. Farmers market in the morning and we have to be set up by 6am and we have an hour drive. I will check back tomorrow tonight.


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## Sammyk

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000R48G5K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Do any of you think this will work?


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## FABulousWines

Hmm, it uses an endothermic process which I don't think will work as well during the high humidity we see here in late summer.


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## ibglowin

Thats a Swamp Cooler so no. Works great here in the desert southwest however where we have 10% humidity.



Sammyk said:


> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000R48G5K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> Do any of you think this will work?


----------



## pjd

That has been asked and answered before. No! An evaporative cooler will not work in your climate.


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## vacuumpumpman

NO that will not work - like others already posted. It would have to be an air conditioning unit which would remove moisture in the air and make it cooler as well.


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## Sammyk

We started paining the RR ties until the rain started. The sand colored paint may not help with the heat but sure is an improvement from the creosote ties that stink!
We just got back from Lowe's with and air conditioner that we think we can vent down the bottom drain. Hopefully it will stop raining so we can get it set up.
Very similar to what ibglowin mentioned. It has a dehumidifier that you can open or close the plug to use or not use the dehumidifier.


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## vacuumpumpman

Sammyk said:


> We started paining the RR ties until the rain started. The sand colored paint may not help with the heat but sure is an improvement from the creosote ties that stink!
> We just got back from Lowe's with and air conditioner that we think we can vent down the bottom drain. Hopefully it will stop raining so we can get it set up.
> Very similar to what ibglowin mentioned. It has a dehumidifier that you can open or close the plug to use or not use the dehumidifier.



By venting down the drain are you referring to the exhaust or the liquid or both ?
referring to post 89


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## Sammyk

Steve, heat will vent down the floor drain. Unit has a tray for the water to drain in.


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## seth8530

Umm cappin', not sure how well that one is gona work. I assume the floor drain drains down and out? Heat tends to go up and away.


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## ibglowin

At this point Seth its about her only hope for a (semi) easy fix. She can always take it back to Lowe's if it doesn't work out. The drain is a duct, like any other duct if you keep pouring flow into it be it air or water, it will take the path of least resistance. Assuming is it clear and open and the vent pipe is inserted as far as they can get it in to the drain, if they can seal it up using some insulation of sorts to make it tight it's may just work. 

Definitely worth a shot IMHO.


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## seth8530

ibglowin said:


> At this point Seth its about her only hope for a (semi) easy fix. She can always take it back to Lowe's if it doesn't work out. The drain is a duct, like any other duct if you keep pouring flow into it be it air or water, it will take the path of least resistance. Assuming is it clear and open and the vent pipe is inserted as far as they can get it in to the drain, if they can seal it up using some insulation of sorts to make it tight it's may just work.
> 
> Definitely worth a shot IMHO.



Keep the receipt. Like ibglowin said, if you do intend on attempting this make sure that you get that hose as far as you possible an into that duct and seal it as good as you possibly can.


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## vacuumpumpman

Near the end of of the outlet of the pipe you can always add an inline duct booster. All it is a fan that goes in line that will aid in longer runs to make sure your heat does get exhausted properly. If this all works fine - I would eventually put a proper hole in the wall for permanent. 

How long is your run from the floor drain to the outside ? I recall it being a distance or so


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## Sammyk

Since the exhaust tubing is 5 inches and the drain opening is only 3 inches we will have to put a reducer on the exhaust tubing. If it works we will then cut a 5 inch hole in the cement. We hate to cut a hole in the cement until we are sure it will work because it would be a major problem patching a 5 inch hole in 8 inches of cement.

The drain tube in the drain probably runs 50'. There was a small hill that the drain tube had to go under so that the water would run down hill.

We cannot put more dirt over the top or heavy rain will flood the driveway and then the garage. And we did have heavy rain the past few days from first the front that moved from west to east and now from the tropical storm that moved up the east coast. Today should be the last day of heavy rain.

Cellar is maintaining 75 degrees but we are going to be 90 plus by Wednesday.


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## vacuumpumpman

most inline blowers ars above 3'' in diameter - but you can use a 
Boat in-line bilge blower (3'') which can be found at most big box stores for 
reasonable money less than 20 dollars. Most all of them use 12 volt power 
supply - hook a car battery or sort and just see if it works help pulling the discharge air out.

Here is a link to what I am talking about - did not have time to review all the different ones that are available at this time 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Attwood-Turbo-3000-In-Line-Blower-Water-Resistant-12-Volt/14150765


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## Sammyk

Air conditioner is installed and ran for 2 hours but there was a small spot the warm air was not going down the bottom drain and the temp we up one degree to 76 and probably having the door open to get the air conditioner in there.

IRONIC we have a tornado watch until 10pm tonight! Reminds me, need to take a flashlight down there in case we lose power because there is only one light and it is really dark in there with no light. LOL.


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## FABulousWines

Sammyk said:


> Air conditioner is installed and ran for 2 hours but there was a small spot the warm air was not going down the bottom drain and the temp we up one degree to 76 and probably having the door open to get the air conditioner in there.
> 
> IRONIC we have a tornado watch until 10pm tonight! Reminds me, need to take a flashlight down there in case we lose power because there is only one light and it is really dark in there with no light. LOL.



Also a cork screw and a couple glasses.


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## novalou

FABulousWines said:


> Also a cork screw and a couple glasses.



I can't imagine a better place to be during a tornado than a wine cellar!


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## Runningwolf

Sammyk said:


> IRONIC we have a tornado watch until 10pm tonight! Reminds me, need to take a flashlight down there in case we lose power because there is only one light and it is really dark in there with no light. LOL.



Sounds like you're pretty air tight now and lots of styrofoam. Sure doesn't sound like a place I'd like to be shut in. Does your cell phones work ok when you're locked inside of it in case the door gets blocked. Oops might not matter since cell service is usually lost when during tornados.


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## vacuumpumpman

When you had the AC running discharging the warm air down the pipe - did you feel any air coming out of the end of the pipe ?

Did you have to put an inline booster on or not ?

You need to compare how much air from the end of the pipe compared to the pressure just straight out of the AC conditioner


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## pjd

I am certain that the blower on the air conditioner cannot overcome the friction of 50' 3" pipe. I am also certain that the blower on that unit could not even handle the friction of 50' of 5" pipe. It is time to consult a professional! I am certain that air conditioner will be returned to Lowes even though there is nothing wrong with it, just mis-applied.


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## vacuumpumpman

pjd said:


> I am certain that the blower on the air conditioner cannot overcome the friction of 50' 3" pipe. I am also certain that the blower on that unit could not even handle the friction of 50' of 5" pipe. It is time to consult a professional! I am certain that air conditioner will be returned to Lowes even though there is nothing wrong with it, just mis-applied.



I agree - my original suggestion would be removing the door off its hinges or keeping it fully open. And replacing the door with an entire 3-4'' solid piece of styrofoam with the hole cut out for the AC exhaust and see if it will work then. It will should not have any positive back pressure then .


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## dessertmaker

The air conditioner will work if you vent it properly, which could probably be done through a wall with a hammer drill and a couple ofgood mortar bits.


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## TahunaJR

Sammyk,

First off I have enjoyed this thread from the very beginning. Secondly, I have not enjoyed it to the ends of your frustrations. Thirdly, I am so impressed with all of the input everyone has provided. Lastly, I would like to add my 2 cents...

My suggestion for venting would be to shorten the door at the top by however many inches you need for venting. Then install a "dummy" header above the door with the needed venting. Then make sure the door seals appropriately when closed. 

You may have to duck a little more when entering/leaving than you originally did, but this may be a more simple solution than cutting concrete. 

Anyway, just my input and I hope you find a solution soon! Good luck...

Joe R.


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## Sammyk

We decided to vent outside once we found a space to make a 5.5" hole in the cement where there were no RR ties. What a bugger drilling a 5.5" hole through 8 inches of rock hard cement. Thankfully the contractor did not put re-bar like he was supposed to add.
That cement is thoroughly dried and is rock hard. No doubt the cement is fully cured!

We have a tarp over the opening and the air conditioner is running and being vented through the vent tubing and a smaller piece of PVC pipe inside of that. They have been inside and then outside drilling and chiseling. A part time employee brought over a hammer drill. Even so the temp has been at 71 since this morning and it is 85 outside in the shade.

We think once they get done and close the door, the temp will drop even more than 71 degrees.

Thank you Steve from All in one Pump for your private messages and you very helpful help. It is very much appreciated.

PJD since the drain is all down hill, all 50' of it, there was water in the end of the tubing on the ground this morning.

We are thinking once we get the heat out of the cellar it will remain cooler.


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## ibglowin

Sounds like your making some progress! It may take a day or two to cool the mass down and stabilize it so just a heads up there. Also they make really inexpensive temperature gauges with battery operated wireless remote probe. You can place the sending unit inside the cellar and the readout as much as ~100 ft away and if the house is close enough or patio or garage to set the readout unit you will easily be able to see the outdoor temp and cellar temp simultaneously.


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## Sammyk

Thanks for your help Mike! Many hours later the cellar air conditioner is vented. Not the prettiest looking opening but cemented, sanded and painted it will look better; a fall project when it is cooler. Broke the cement bit on the hammer drill so it was chiseled out by hand. Very hard work!
Now you can see what we were up against. The white on the right is the steel door and there there is only a few inches from the RR ties on the left side.


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## Sammyk

Mike we bought 2 different remote thermometers and neither would pick up from the remote. Cell phone or cordless phone will not pick up in there either. We have no problem with either phones anywhere else on your 2.5 acres, only in the cellar.


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## vacuumpumpman

Please keep us all posted on the results- I think once all the cement cools off to the temperature you are desiring that it will maintain that temp alot more efficiently.


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## Sammyk

We think so too. A lot of bottles of wine to cool down and then it should hold a decent temperature. That should take a couple of days.


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## ibglowin

I have several of the lacrosse technologies units. Check Amazon for models and prices. The concrete and steel could be blocking the signal for sure. I have the remote unit in my cellar and the main unit in the house about 30ft away and they work great together but then they are only going through air and wood, not steel and concrete. Worst comes to worse use a wired one and mount it on the door and send the wire through the vent opening.

Happy to hear your making some progress!


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## FABulousWines

Sammy,

Another alternative is one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013BKDO8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1







I bought one to keep an eye on the temps where I am aging my wine in the house. It will track the high and low temperature for a 24 hour period along with the humidity. That way you only have to enter once a day or so to see how the temp has been going.
Free shipping if you have Prime.


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## Sammyk

*Finally!*

The only place to install an air conditioner was in the steel door. So that is what we did. It is rated for a 15 x 15 room and 5,000BTU. There was no place because of the RR ties to get one set into the walls.

This morning the temperature is down to 69 and the humidity down to 54%. It was lower last night but we turned the unit down for the night since we could not keep an eye on it. We did turn it back up to high this morning.

The other air conditioner, the lowest we could get it was 75 degrees and 84% humidity.

Drilling a hole in the 8" cement to install the other air conditioner and put dust everywhere inside! Major cleaning to be done inside now.

Anyone here have any legal background?


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## vacuumpumpman

I am very happy for you both that you were able to find something that works without tearing down and starting over. Do you have a pic of the complete front side ? Door and AC unit ??


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## Sammyk

The last photo is of the front side of the door. The very top photo is the inside. It is placed near the top of the door.

I did attach another photo. So the controls are on the inside of the cellar. It is not going anyway because it is tightly wedged in the opening.

The last photo of the originals was also taken from the side so you can see the depth that the air conditioner is set into the opening.


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## Sammyk

To clarify taken straight on the one photo does not show the depth that the unit sticks out. So I took a side view so you can see the depth of the unit in the door.

We did have to caulk to fill in small gaps where the jig saw had a hard time cutting through the steel.


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## ibglowin

Those are much more efficient AC units. Was this new or something you had around the house. The newer units have a complete shut off thermostat that shuts the unit off when it reaches the temp set point, then cuts back on as needed just like a real (indoor) AC unit. That way it doesn't run 24/7.


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## TahunaJR

Sammyk, so happy there is finally light at the end of the tunnel!!!! Just a couple of things...

Have you considered adding supports to the bottom of the A/C unit on the outside of the door? Perhaps a couple of flat metal bars angled from the bottom of the A/C to the door? Wondering if it would help create a more solid arrangement depending on the overall weight of the A/C. 

What did you do with the hole that was chiseled out? Hopefully it can serve some purpose for the effort. 

Anyway, congrats are certainly in order.

Joe R.


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## Sammyk

TahunaJR the other hole is still there with the piece of foam insulation that was cut out for the hole. That hole will be filled with cement soon.

No need for anything to hold the unit in place. it is a very tight fit, took 2 men to force it into the hole that was cut for it because the hole was a smidgen too small. We do have some "L" shaped brackets but decided that they were not needed. It has been caulked in a lot of places where the jig saw "jumped" making the cuts or the cuts were not straight.

Unit was only $119.00 at Lowe's minus a 10% military discount. It has a high star energy rating and supposedly only uses $41.00 in electricity a year.


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## Boatboy24

Glad to see you've nailed down a solution.


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## TahunaJR

BTW, I love the picture of the dusty bottles! Reminds me of a French cellar that has been untouched for 30+ years. Adds a lot of character to the bottles/cellar!

Joe R.


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## Sammyk

LOL! TahunaJR, Do you want to come dust them? Before we got this unit in, we thought the dust might inhibit the mold that started to grow on the bottles.


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## TahunaJR

Sammyk, believe me, if I lived closer, I would be there in a heartbeat! However, my work ethic of "dust 1 bottle for you - drink 1 bottle for me" would get me tossed quickly!!! At least the working conditions would be pretty cool... Regardless, still happy you solved your problem. 

Joe R.


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## DaveL

I agree I'd leave the dust


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## Sammyk

*Update*

Many were watching this thread so we thought it was time to update.

The Frigidaire air conditioner is holding the temperature consistently at 62 degrees. It is energy star rated so we will see how well it holds up. The lowest setting is 62 so it is living up to what we hoped the unit would do.

We never heard back from the contractor or billed for the balance. We feel it is because he knows he screwed up by not doing any research or listening to what we told him had to be done based on our research that we did prior to him starting the project.

We do feel bad for at least one sub-contractor who was never paid. Hopefully all the others were paid because we specifically gave him money when he asked for money to pay the sub-contractors. Word will spread fast in this smallish town that he does not pay his sub-contractors.


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## vacuumpumpman

That really is great news !!! I am sure you both have alot of weight lifted off your shoulders.


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## jamesngalveston

SammyK...I started reading this thread at the end...Then went back and read all the post from the start....Its a shame that you had to go through what you did to get to the point you are at now...
whats called a split ac system is twice as effeicent as what your using, and there really not that more expensive...you can buy the whole package for about 1200.. and it will chill that area to freezing.


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## Sammyk

James we looked at many different options and the room air conditioner was $130.00 (minus 10% military discount) and has been working like a charm for about a month now. We could replace the unit many times before changing over to another type of unit.

At 62 degrees we think the wine will hold up a few years. We are curious to see what the winter brings in the way of temperature inside the cellar.

We had professional air conditioner company from Lennox come out and he would not guarantee a temperature that his unit would provide. At 5K we were not willing to get into something that would not be guaranteed in writing to the temperature it could achieve. 

He actually told us to look into a room air conditioner that was energy efficient.

Time was against us too because we had to get the wine out of the 80 plus degree home and into the cellar that was holding at 75 degrees. At that point it time we were approaching 90 degree plus temps outside.

We talked to refrigeration installation company and their estimate was even higher.

At any rate, the air conditioner bought us more time to explore more permanent solutions when the weather is much cooler.


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## cimbaliw

Congratulations on the fix, I think we're all genuinely happy for you. It's a true friend who will share his problems with others.

BC


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## Sammyk

The thread did not turn out the way we hoped. We hoped that others input would give us great insight on how to have a great wine cellar and that they did. There is a wealth of great information here on the forum. We are all fortunate to have so many folks from different walks of life who are willing to help out others with their personal experience.

Sadly we hope others will learn from our disastrous situation and know the correct way to build/dig a wine cellar.


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## ICMTM

Sammyk said:


> The thread did not turn out the way we hoped. We hoped that others input would give us great insight on how to have a great wine cellar and that they did. There is a wealth of great information here on the forum. We are all fortunate to have so many folks from different walks of life who are willing to help out others with their personal experience.
> 
> Sadly we hope others will learn from our disastrous situation and know the correct way to build/dig a wine cellar.



I found this thread looking for a temporary solution of my own. I didn't see anyone mentioning growing grass on that bare dirt as a solution? I don't know if watering the dirt will harm your cellar, but grass will bring down the temperature of the soil and absorb sunlight. I have no real world experience with this stuff, but I do know on a hot day dirt is warmer than grass. Grass will grow in faster than a tree, and if you're able to get sod it's instant.


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## Tess

ICMTM said:


> I found this thread looking for a temporary solution of my own. I didn't see anyone mentioning growing grass on that bare dirt as a solution? I don't know if watering the dirt will harm your cellar, but grass will bring down the temperature of the soil and absorb sunlight. I have no real world experience with this stuff, but I do know on a hot day dirt is warmer than grass. Grass will grow in faster than a tree, and if you're able to get sod it's instant.



grass was mentioned. 




GreginND said:


> I would think if you get a good bed of grass established over that dirt it would go a long way toward cooling things down. That soil is dark and absorbing a lot of heat from the sun.
> 
> I am not sure why you are hesitant to scrape off the top. Sure, you'll lose some plants, etc. But it is still the easiest option to add more insulation outside. If you do spray inside you will lose interior space. You may want to consult someone who knows about thermal protection. Perhaps you only need to spray the ceiling and door/front.


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## Tess

I dont think it was dug near deep enough. Set a shed on top of it. that will reflect the heat


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## Sammyk

Grass is now growing on top of it. No to shed on top of it, it would look ridiculous there and stick out like a sore thumb. From the road now it just looks like a hill next to the garage. A shed there would look totally out of place.

We are quite happy with the air conditioner and it has not even raised our electric bill. We are cooler now and it was 60 inside. During the heat of the summer it stayed a constant 63 and we are happy with that temperature. One thing since it is 90% full now with carboys and racks of wine, it is easier to maintain the temperature because the cooled down bottles we think helps tremendously.


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## ICMTM

Thanks for quoting the other post related to grass.


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