# Im freaking out. What have I done wrong?



## Xerxwine (Oct 28, 2021)

I'm making wine for the first time. Here is what I have done so far.

I bought 26 kg of grapes to make red wine. I gave it to someone to crush it with a grapecrushing machine. I brought the barrel home and put half kilogram of rock candy(flavorless,coloreless,plain sugar) to it. Pic of the candy

I didn't pour any yeast because my uncle told me the natural yeast on the grape's skin is enough.

I closed the lid. Tightened it with the collar so that no air goes in.

I started punching the wine from the next day. Two times a day.(one thing that I'm worried about is that I've seen on other YouTube videos that they don't punch or stir the one for a week or so)

During the past 7 days I see a little foam when I punch the wine but not really noticeable. I'm not sure at what stage of fermentation I am. The skin and grapes do come at the top but I think it should puff to much higher level.

Today I added an airlock. I drilled a hole,put a bung and installed the airlock on top. I don't see any bubbles. The water inside the airlock is not bubbling.

I'm literally going insane since all I think about during the day is my wine. I have spent a lot (buying barrel(second handed though), long wooden stirring stick, airocks, drill equipment and of course the grape)

I would very much appreciate it if you could help.

P.S The barrel looks like this but the silver collar is a bit bent since it's second handed.Barrel


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## Scooter68 (Oct 28, 2021)

You might want to edit your post and remove your location information if you are actually in that country. Wine making in most Muslim controlled countries can result is severe repercussions. I know there is plenty of dissent in your particular country but still.....


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## winemaker81 (Oct 28, 2021)

@Xerxwine, do you have a hydrometer, and if not, can you get one? This tests the specific gravity and is the easiest way for a home winemaker to determine if fermentation is complete.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 28, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> You might want to edit your post and remove your location information if you are actually in that country. Wine making in most Muslim controlled countries can result is severe repercussions. I know there is plenty of dissent in your particular country but still.....


Yeah you're right. But I doubt they can track me. Also I'm making for my own. I'm not gonna start selling. 
But you're right tbh. I'm gonna remove it


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## Xerxwine (Oct 28, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Xerxwine, do you have a hydrometer, and if not, can you get one? This tests the specific gravity and is the easiest way for a home winemaker to determine if fermentation is complete.


Unfortunately I don't. I need to look up and see how much it costs. If it's cheap I might buy one

Edit: I checked. A bit expensive but I can buy it.is there no way to find out without hydrometer?


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## Xerxwine (Oct 28, 2021)

Here is the picture I took a few minut s ago before punching

Video of My Barrel after the punching

And above is the video after the punching


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## NorCal (Oct 28, 2021)

Welcome. The problem with using "natural" yeast is that you don't know what was present on your grapes and in what amount. The cost of a good wine yeast is quite inexpensive vs. the cost of not having a successful fermentation. A hydrometer is $12 delivered here in the US, it is the sure way of knowing how your ferementation is going. You could try "pitching" the new yeast (look for 1118) or start a new fermentation and feed this must into it. Also, the fermentation needs oxygen on the start of fermentation, you don't want an air tight seal. This also didn't help your situation.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 28, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> Edit: I checked. A bit expensive but I can buy it.is there no way to find out without hydrometer?


No. A hydrometer is the least expensive tool for the job. It's the one tool I'll bet 99% of the folks on the forum will vote as an essential tool. If your wine making is not a one-off, e.g., you're going to keep doing it? It's worth it.

They are made of glass and are fragile. Treat them carefully and with respect, and they'll last a long time. Mine is 38 years old as of next January.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 28, 2021)

*ok I'm gonna buy hydrometer and update you guys. Tomorrow everywhere is closed in my country. Hopefully my wine doesn't turn bad by saturday . I'll let you know. Thanks a lot*


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## winemaker81 (Oct 28, 2021)

@Xerxwine, welcome to an international fraternity!

Your wine is outgassing (emitting CO2) and will do so for a week or more. This protects the wine from O2.

O2 is use by yeast for reproduction during fermentation. AFTER fermentation O2 is the enemy. But you have a short term buffer so you're probably OK.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 28, 2021)

a hydrometer is measuring density relative to distilled water (1 gm/ cc). ie if you have access to a two place balance and pipettes you can monitor the density by tracking the decrease of weight per cc. ,,, this sample can be returned to the wine.
For most folks in the US starting they don’t have a balance and accurate volume measurement so the hydrometer is cheaper and quite accurate.


Xerxwine said:


> I checked. A bit expensive but I can buy it.is there no way to find out without hydrometer?


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## Xerxwine (Oct 29, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Xerxwine, welcome to an international fraternity!
> 
> Your wine is outgassing (emitting CO2) and will do so for a week or more. This protects the wine from O2.
> 
> O2 is use by yeast for reproduction during fermentation. AFTER fermentation O2 is the enemy. But you have a short term buffer so you're probably OK.



Thank you for the information.



Rice_Guy said:


> a hydrometer is measuring density relative to distilled water (1 gm/ cc). ie if you have access to a two place balance and pipettes you can monitor the density by tracking the decrease of weight per cc. ,,, this sample can be returned to the wine.
> For most folks in the US starting they don’t have a balance and accurate volume measurement so the hydrometer is cheaper and quite accurate.



I found a chinese one. I'm not sure if the cheap Chinese hydrometers will do the work. There is also German one which is twice the price of the Chinese one. I'm not sure which one should I buy


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 29, 2021)

_which one?_
I have three types of hydrometers, the medical and mom’s are off by .002 from the newest triple scale. On an accuracy basis who cares about .002 when the target for finished is from 0.990 to 0.998, ,, or .008 units.
The other way to rank would be how often do they break? I have broken the medical style with .001 divisions but not the common larger more clunky styles with .002 divisions.
. . . I would choose on cost, accuracy doesn’t matter


Xerxwine said:


> I'm not sure if the cheap Chinese hydrometers will do the work. There is also German one which is twice the price of the Chinese one. I'm not sure which one should I buy


A third way to look is do they give a complete package? We typically pull a sample and put in a clear plastic cylinder (less breakable) or a 100 ml or 250ml glass graduated cylinder, ,, if you are lucky you might already have a sample vessel as a clean glass rose flower vase which is about 25 cm long by 2.5cm diameter.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 29, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> _which one?_
> I have three types of hydrometers, the medical and mom’s are off by .002 from the newest triple scale. On an accuracy basis who cares about .002 when the target for finished is from 0.990 to 0.998, ,, or .008 units.
> The other way to rank would be how often do they break? I have broken the medical style with .001 divisions but not the common larger more clunky styles with .002 divisions.
> . . . I would choose on cost, accuracy doesn’t matter
> ...


Thanks a lot but I have already bought the hydrometer before reading this. It's a Chinese one 990-1160. What should I do now? Pour my wine inside the glass cylinder and what to do next? 

Since today is the 8th day since I have crushed the grapes and as I said earlier I have punched it twice a day. I have no idea what number should the hydrometer show.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 29, 2021)

Day 8? Take a deep breath and relax -- it sounds like your wine is ok and you're doing fine. Most fermentations take 5 to 10 days, and the wine is outgassing CO2 for a while, so you have a buffer.

This thread explains how to use a hydrometer:






How To Read Hydrometer


How To Read A Hydrometer. By taking a specific gravity reading before the introduction of your yeast to the must, then again when fermentation is complete can you determine the alcohol percentage by volume. Subtract the final reading from the beginning to get your answer. When your hydrometer...




www.winemakingtalk.com





Fermentation is considered done if the SG is between 0.998 and 0.990, and remains constant for 3 days. If your wine is at 1.000 (which is the SG of water) or lower, go ahead and press. If there is still activity, you should leave a bit of extra head space in your secondary container(s), so the bubbling doesn't overflow the container.

The wine will drop gross lees (grape solids) relatively quickly, so you'll rack again in 1 to 2 weeks. After that, you want very little head space as O2 is your wine's enemy.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 29, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Day 8? Take a deep breath and relax -- it sounds like your wine is ok and you're doing fine. Most fermentations take 5 to 10 days, and the wine is outgassing CO2 for a while, so you have a buffer.
> 
> This thread explains how to use a hydrometer:
> 
> ...


What I'm worried about is that I sealed my barrel and it didn't blow up. I didn't know about but apparently it should have bulged. I think the barrel I bought is not firm enough and it could cause me trouble in the secondary stage. I don't know how to seal it. Should I cover it with plastic bag and then put the lud?

I will use the hydrometer and tell you nice people the results. 

Also, can I pour back the wine I pour in the glass cylinder or I should throw it out?


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## winemaker81 (Oct 29, 2021)

As long as your test jar is clean and sanitized, the wine is still good. Don't throw it out.

You need a different container for secondary storage. The barrel you have leaves WAY too much headspace. Your wine will oxidize.

Do you have access to 3 or 4 liter jugs? Any sealable glass container will do.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 29, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> As long as your test jar is clean and sanitized, the wine is still good. Don't throw it out.
> 
> You need a different container for secondary storage. The barrel you have leaves WAY too much headspace. Your wine will oxidize.
> 
> Do you have access to 3 or 4 liter jugs? Any sealable glass container will do.


First of all I need to tell you that I didn't have anything sanatized or anything better than a ladle to take wine and pour it in the glass cylinder so I can check with hydrometer. I'm not sure if I damaged the wine by doing thism The ladle is made of steel I guess.
Ladle example

Second of all the number showed on the hydrometer was 0.993

Finally, my barrel has airlock,isnt airlock enough to not make me worried about the headspace?
By racking you mean I should pour everything (the juice,grapes,skin,seeds,etc) in another container that leaves less head space? Does the new container(barrel or whatever) needs an airlock too?

I would appreciate it if you could explain it to me.

P.s. I think my wine will create 3 percent alcohol since the fermentations has ended this fast


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## winemaker81 (Oct 29, 2021)

Chances are your wine is fine. As @Rice_Guy rightly says, wine is a preservative system. Once fermented, wine is high acid and high alcohol, which kills or inhibits _most_ organisms.

The first step in preparing our equipment is ensuring it's clean, e.g., free of dirt and other foreign material. Honestly, that's often a sufficient step in sanitizing. The second step, which is strongly recommended, is to further sanitize with K-meta water, which is 2 to 3 Tbsp potassium metabisulfite (K-meta) and 1 Tbsp acid (citric, tartaric, blend) dissolved in 4 liters water. Splash or spray your equipment and let stand for 5 to 10 minutes. Keep the K-meta water in a sealed container (I use a 4 liter jug), and it's good for months. As long as it's clear and stinks, it's good. DO NOT breath deeply, as it will burn your lungs. [There are other sanitizing agents available, but we'll keep this simple.]

I'll never tell you to not use K-meta to sanitize, but if you didn't, you're probably fine. K-meta helps guarantee that the equipment is sanitized, which means most organisms are removed or killed.

An SG of 0.993 indicates fermentation is complete or very nearly so. Press the grapes, leaving the solids (skin, pulp, seeds) behind and put the resulting wine in one or more jugs, with an airlock. The wine will settle over the next few weeks and the gross lees (sediment composed of grape solids) will settle out. You'll rack (siphon) the wine, leaving the gross lees behind. Ideally you need a food grape siphon hose, but folks use other methods to separate the wine from the gross lees. A ladle is not ideal, but you need to use whatever you have available.

I keep my records online -- this link is a kit I'm making where I wrote a very detailed log of actions. It's a kit, not fresh grapes, but a lot of the information may be useful. This includes pictures where it shows how I topped up containers.





__





2021 Finer Wine Kits – Barbera in Detail – Bryan's Wine & Beer Making Site







wine.bkfazekas.com





MoreWine! publishes a lot of free manuals. The one on red wine production will answer a lot of your questions. I suggest you skim it, and ask more questions regarding things that don't make sense.






MoreManuals! Winemaking Guides | MoreWine


The definitive "wine making how to" for winemaking at home and commercially. Interested to learn about what makes a wine red or a wine white? Look no further! Learn everything about making your first red wine or white wine.




morewinemaking.com


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 29, 2021)

in the old days folks didn’t have sanitizers and red grapes worked well, white grape not as well.
Sanitizing, ,,, most microbial load is removed with soap and water.
For barrels the old way was to burn sulfur in the barrel which creates SO2 which is the active ingredient in potassium metabisulphite. A lot of this is creating a chemical which picks up oxygen and delays off flavor development, ,,, it tastes less good, ,,, but is not a food toxin.


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## VinesnBines (Oct 29, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> P.s. I think my wine will create 3 percent alcohol since the fermentations has ended this fast



You started with ripe grapes and finished at 0.993, so you most likely will have 10% to 12% alcohol. Length of time for fermentation is not an indication of alcohol level. Eight or nine days is pretty normal for a red fermentation. You should be just fine.

Read up on processes and gather some glass containers and listen to Winemaker81 and the rest of the posters.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 29, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> First of all I need to tell you that I didn't have anything sanatized or anything better than a ladle to take wine and pour it in the glass cylinder so I can check with hydrometer. I'm not sure if I damaged the wine by doing thism The ladle is made of steel I guess.
> Ladle example
> 
> Second of all the number showed on the hydrometer was 0.993
> ...



@VinesnBines beat me to it, it's not the time but the sugar level that determines the ABV. Please whatever you do don't leave the wine in that barrel. 

I may not understand but you said you crushed the grapes yesterday. Most common is crushing prior to fermentation but there are all kinds of methods including uncrushed fermentation.

As @winemaker81 states your next step is to press the pulp. I'm not sure how you plan on doing this but the amount of wine you get will be dependent on the efficiency of you press. I would guess with 26 kg you might get 2.5 to 4 gallons depending on the efficiency of your press. 

Good luck with it a keep the oxygen exposure to a bare minimum.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 30, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> The first step in preparing our equipment is ensuring it's clean, e.g., free of dirt and other foreign material. Honestly, that's often a sufficient step in sanitizing. The second step, which is strongly recommended, is to further sanitize with K-meta water, which is 2 to 3 Tbsp potassium metabisulfite (K-meta) and 1 Tbsp acid (citric, tartaric, blend) dissolved in 4 liters water. Splash or spray your equipment and let stand for 5 to 10 minutes. Keep the K-meta water in a sealed container (I use a 4 liter jug), and it's good for months. As long as it's clear and stinks, it's good. DO NOT breath deeply, as it will burn your lungs. [There are other sanitizing agents available, but we'll keep this simple.]


I think I'm past the sanitation process and I need to try that for the next time I'm making wine. Is normal acid citric OK? How long should I wait before pouring the grapes inside the container(barrel,etc) should I wash it with those ingredients? Is few hours OK? Since you say kmeta water stinks,is it gonna affect the taste of the wine?



winemaker81 said:


> Press the grapes, leaving the solids (skin, pulp, seeds) behind and put the resulting wine in one or more jugs, with an airlock



As for pressing,I checked the price for grape presser and it's a but expensive. I mean I have already spent a lot. I found a bag which is apparently suitable for pressing with hand. Here is the picture:

Bag with zip

The problem with pouring the wine in another container is that I have no idea how much litre I'm going to get. I've planned to buy two glass containers. One 10 litres and the other 6 litres. Here is the picture of the glass container.




I'm glad I have found a Iranian website that sells this stuff as the tools for making mint water,rose water,... Not sure if they are trying to circumvent the law.


I also think I can find food grade siphone so I can use it as the final stage for sucking the wine.

Thank you very much for you help. I appreciate it a lot. I'm glad I found this forum so I can ask masters of winemaking


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## Xerxwine (Oct 30, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> View attachment 80481
> 
> 
> in the old days folks didn’t have sanitizers and red grapes worked well, white grape not as well.
> ...


Thank you for the information. Very interesting


VinesnBines said:


> You started with ripe grapes and finished at 0.993, so you most likely will have 10% to 12% alcohol. Length of time for fermentation is not an indication of alcohol level. Eight or nine days is pretty normal for a red fermentation. You should be just fine.
> 
> Read up on processes and gather some glass containers and listen to Winemaker81 and the rest of the posters.


Thanks. Yeah I'm gonna buy a glass container today


mainshipfred said:


> @VinesnBines beat me to it, it's not the time but the sugar level that determines the ABV. Please whatever you do don't leave the wine in that barrel.



What exactly iswrong with that barrel?just wondering. I think winemaker 81 also told me that I should not let my wine stay in that barrel.


mainshipfred said:


> I may not understand but you said you crushed the grapes yesterday. Most common is crushing prior to fermentation but there are all kinds of methods including uncrushed fermentation


No. Today is the 9th day. I'm gonna press the grapes today for the secondary fermentation

Edit: I just found another product. Apparantly it's some kind of paper filter? Should I use this instead of the bag? Ir this is for the final stage to get rid of lees? Unfortunately the picture provided in the website is not clear.


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## franc1969 (Oct 30, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> l
> What exactly iswrong with that barrel?just wondering. I think winemaker 81 also told me that I should not let my wine stay in that barrel.


Nothing particularly wrong with the barrel, as far as anyone knows. As mainshipfred said earlier "keep the oxygen exposure to a bare minimum". What that means is minimize the airspace at the top of the container. I have many sizes of glass carboys and bottles to take whatever i end up with. My batches are on the smaller side, so I have 7G, 24L, 20L, 12L, 4L, 3L,1.5L,1L, 750ML, 500ML, 350ML etc. Mostly juice bottles from things we drank- the biggest thing for me is lid size that matches. Some people here with bigger batches use a collapsible poly water carboy for the last few gallons and can top up rackings from that. If that is something you have access to, it could also hold the whole batch, and you'd be able to get two for racking from one to the other. Not as ideal as glass, but fine.
I yanked an image from ebay to show what I mean. Cubes, accordion, whatever. Main thing is to remove air while wine ages.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 30, 2021)

the collapsible carboy is LDPE (low density polyethylene). They produce a slow oxidation flavor like sherry. It is very drinkable but some folks don’t like any oxidation so not ideal.


franc1969 said:


> . Some people here with bigger batches use a collapsible poly water carboy for the last few gallons and can top up rackings from that. If that is something you have access to, it could also hold the whole batch, and you'd be able to get two for racking from one to the other. Not as ideal as glass, but fine.


a basic air lock is a balloon over the mouth of a jug. I have some PET plastic with 120mm mouth and use silicone to cover/ prevent oxygen exposure. (PET has low oxygen transmission and is in many food grade containers). ,,,, I have not been able to get the lids on large glass as your photo to seal 100%. It is OK but not ideal.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 30, 2021)

i forgot to ask another question about the pressing and pouring the juice itself inside the carboy.
Since I haven't used a yeast, do I still have to do this? Doesn't the second fermentation need the grapes,skins and seeds ? I mean if I filter it to a carboy by using that bag I told you people, will the second fermentation happen inside the carboy?



franc1969 said:


> Nothing particularly wrong with the barrel, as far as anyone knows. As mainshipfred said earlier "keep the oxygen exposure to a bare minimum". What that means is minimize the airspace at the top of the container. I have many sizes of glass carboys and bottles to take whatever i end up with. My batches are on the smaller side, so I have 7G, 24L, 20L, 12L, 4L, 3L,1.5L,1L, 750ML, 500ML, 350ML etc. Mostly juice bottles from things we drank- the biggest thing for me is lid size that matches. Some people here with bigger batches use a collapsible poly water carboy for the last few gallons and can top up rackings from that. If that is something you have access to, it could also hold the whole batch, and you'd be able to get two for racking from one to the other. Not as ideal as glass, but fine.
> I yanked an image from ebay to show what I mean. Cubes, accordion, whatever. Main thing is to remove air while wine ages.


Great information .


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## mainshipfred (Oct 30, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> i forgot to ask another question about the pressing and pouring the juice itself inside the carboy.
> Since I haven't used a yeast, do I still have to do this? Doesn't the second fermentation need the grapes,skins and seeds ? I mean if I filter it to a carboy by using that bag I told you people, will the second fermentation happen inside the carboy?
> 
> 
> Great information .



It will still ferment, there is plenty of yeast ( an you did use a yeast just native and not cultured) in the juice but at .993 there is not a lot of fermentation that will be going on, mostly degassing. It may start going through malolactic fermentation on it's own but that's different.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 30, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> Edit: I just found another product. Apparantly it's some kind of paper filter? Should I use this instead of the bag? Ir this is for the final stage to get rid of lees?


* the traditional way to filter was to use a reed basket with 1 to 5 mm spaces, once the grape berries plug the space it is a fairly fast good wine yield filter
* the fabric/ bag filter is good since one can put pressure on it to speed the flow, PRESSING is always done. A simple way mom used to do was put the fruit solids in a cotton bread flour sack and twist it to apply force.
* a paper filter tends to be very slow on a fluid with high solids, they also need to be supported to prevent ripping. Paper could be used on a final filtration as with cooking oil or milk
* household window screen, about 1mm mesh is a good filter size, ,,, (do not use aluminum, metals catalyze oxidative reactions)

_making wine is a cleaning process, the large material needs to be removed, sugars are removed with yeast, in between size solids settle with gravity_


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## gsorrells (Oct 30, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> View attachment 80481
> 
> 
> in the old days folks didn’t have sanitizers and red grapes worked well, white grape not as well.
> ...



You would have to have extremely high SO2 levels before they would interfere with taste. We bottle around 25-40ppm and that generally protects our wines for 5-7 years, at least. I believe that 300-350 is the legal maximum (in the US), but I have never seen any wines that high. Even then, you could just let the wine breath for an hour and it would degas.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 30, 2021)

@Xerxwine, read the MoreWine! red wine manual. It will set your mind at ease. You are asking good questions and I expect your wine will turn out fine.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 31, 2021)

Urgent. 

Is this headspace enough for the second fermentation ?


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## Xerxwine (Oct 31, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> It will still ferment, there is plenty of yeast ( an you did use a yeast just native and not cultured) in the juice but at .993 there is not a lot of fermentation that will be going on, mostly degassing. It may start going through malolactic fermentation on it's own but that's different.


Thanks a lot



Rice_Guy said:


> * the traditional way to filter was to use a reed basket with 1 to 5 mm spaces, once the grape berries plug the space it is a fairly fast good wine yield filter
> * the fabric/ bag filter is good since one can put pressure on it to speed the flow, PRESSING is always done. A simple way mom used to do was put the fruit solids in a cotton bread flour sack and twist it to apply force.
> * a paper filter tends to be very slow on a fluid with high solids, they also need to be supported to prevent ripping. Paper could be used on a final filtration as with cooking oil or milk
> * household window screen, about 1mm mesh is a good filter size, ,,, (do not use aluminum, metals catalyze oxidative reactions)
> ...



Great information as always. Thanks a lot


winemaker81 said:


> @Xerxwine, read the MoreWine! red wine manual. It will set your mind at ease. You are asking good questions and I expect your wine will turn out fine.


I'll read it as the second fermentation is going on. I posted the picture. The temperature in the room is 29 centigrade btw


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## mainshipfred (Oct 31, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> Urgent.
> 
> Is this headspace enough for the second fermentation ?




For any length of bulk aging it is too much headspace. Your fermentation is done so if you see any activity in the air lock it's just degassing which will protect your wine for a little while. After that it really needs to be topped up to nearly no headspace, especially with the wide mouth vessel.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 31, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> For any length of bulk aging it is too much headspace. Your fermentation is done so if you see any activity in the air lock it's just degassing which will protect your wine for a little while. After that it really needs to be topped up to nearly no headspace, especially with the wide mouth vessel.


I saw no bubbles when i installed the airlock so I topped it up. It leaked when I moved the glass but at least I won't be worried it gets oxidized. Thanks

I have about a glass of wine left which I don't know what to do with. I guess I should throw it out. Is it drinkable?


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## mainshipfred (Oct 31, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> I saw no bubbles when i installed the airlock so I topped it up. It leaked when I moved the glass but at least I won't be worried it gets oxidized. Thanks
> 
> I have about a glass of wine left which I don't know what to do with. I guess I should throw it out. Is it drinkable?



Heck, I'd drink it. Might not be the best right now but it will give you some indication of the finish product.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 31, 2021)

I always drink the young leftovers.


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## Xerxwine (Oct 31, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Heck, I'd drink it. Might not be the best right now but it will give you some indication of the finish product.





sour_grapes said:


> I always drink the young leftovers.



Awesome. I'm gonna drink it then.

It took me more than two hours(maybe 3 hours) to press it with the zipped bag. I hope it's not oxidized!?!

Next time I'm gonna save money to buy grape crusher to do the pressing.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 31, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> I have about a glass of wine left which I don't know what to do with.


One should always test the batch to see if sugar hepls, if a drop of glycerin helps, if there is volatle sulfur compounds VSC that you can smell, if it is a good one which the wife likes. . . . . there is a lot to learn . . . . 5000 years ago the whole tribe would have a wedding and drink it all.

The least aggresive I have done is to vacuum package and hold for the next vinters club meeting to show Brad what his yeast sample could do.


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## Xerxwine (Nov 2, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> One should always test the batch to see if sugar hepls, if a drop of glycerin helps, if there is volatle sulfur compounds VSC that you can smell, if it is a good one which the wife likes. . . . . there is a lot to learn . . . . 5000 years ago the whole tribe would have a wedding and drink it all.
> 
> The least aggresive I have done is to vacuum package and hold for the next vinters club meeting to show Brad what his yeast sample could do.


Thanks you so much.

My question is how do you guys control the temperature? Do you have a specific refrigerator that keeps the temperature at 70 f? Current weather temperature of my country is 22° and the best room temperature I can get is 23-25 with opened windows.That's it.


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 2, 2021)

The low technology way to lower temperature is, sit the carboy in a bucket of water or sink, place a wet towel on the shoulders of the carboy, and blow a fan over the wet towel. 
Adding frozen liter/ 2 liter bottles of ice to the water gives a bit lower temperature.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 2, 2021)

20 to 24 C is fine. Cooler is often preferred, but that range works. @Rice_Guy's temperature tips work great!


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## Xerxwine (Nov 3, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> The low technology way to lower temperature is, sit the carboy in a bucket of water or sink, place a wet towel on the shoulders of the carboy, and blow a fan over the wet towel.
> Adding frozen liter/ 2 liter bottles of ice to the water gives a bit lower temperature.



Great advice. Thank you


winemaker81 said:


> 20 to 24 C is fine. Cooler is often preferred, but that range works. @Rice_Guy's temperature tips work great!


In the guide to red wine making guide you sent me, it says that for the secondary fermentation you need to add ml bacteria . I have no idea how where can I buy this in my country. It's already the third day after the racking.

Can secondary fermentation happen without MLF? Just let the wine sit for two weeks and then bottling it?

Edit:I'm googling and can't find it at all in my country


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## mainshipfred (Nov 3, 2021)

Just like there is native yeast on grapes there is also native MLB. The problem is if you want to have your wine go through MLF it takes 2-3 months and the native MLB does not always finish. If you choose to attempt the native route do not add and sulfites and it makes it even more important to have the wine topped up to the fullest.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 3, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> it says that for the secondary fermentation you need to add ml bacteria


Malolactic Fermentation (MLF) is not a requirement, it's an option. I've never inoculated for MLF -- while I'm thinking about trying it, I haven't done it. You have enough other issues that I recommend you ignore the issue for now. You can revisit it later, if you wish.

As @mainshipfred stated, wild malolactic bacteria (MLB) is present and MLF will probably start, but the bacteria may not complete the job of converting malic acid into lactic acid. Most folks that want MLF inoculate so they get a known strain.

Regarding wild/natural yeast and bacteria vs. cultured/commercial versions -- all grapes have 1 or more yeast strains living on the skins. This is a major reason why grapes = wine, as grape juice turns into wine unless you pasteurize it. And then yeast in the air may land so it may ferment anyway ...

Cultured yeast WAS wild yeast, but specific strains were isolated and cultured. These yeasts are selected for their specific properties. e.g., flocculation, doesn't produce H2S, enhances aroma, enhances color extraction, etc. When you buy commercial yeast, you know what you are getting. When you go with a "natural" ferment, you get whatever yeast was growing on your grapes' skin.

It's noted that the highly successful wineries of Europe founded their success on the climate, soil, topography, and grape variety. I'm of the opinion that dumb luck played a vital role, in that they got lucky that a very useful (to humans) strain of yeast is what dominated their vineyards.

Winemaking is part art, part science, part history, mixed with fun conversation!


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## Xerxwine (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm at a point which I have no idea whether to keep the wine outside or inside. I have put my wine outside in the balcony for 8 days now. I tasted it(weather changes from 6 Celsius to 15 Celsius). It doesn't taste good tbh. Not like vinegar but not the way i thought it should. I highly doubt malolactic fermentation has taken place

On the other hand my room temperature is 28 C. 

Is it better to bring it inside? or is that cold weather fine? 

Note: I have no other place to keep the wine and I can't open my room window 24/7 because of airpolution and dust (I don't even care if I get cold but the other two problems I mentioned annoys me more)


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## winemaker81 (Nov 9, 2021)

@Xerxwine, your wine is brand new -- it's not going to taste good at this point. Time is your friend.

As long as the wine doesn't freeze, the cooler temperature is fine. Your room is warmer than I expected -- we keep our house around 20-22 C in the winter.


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## Xerxwine (Nov 9, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Your room is warmer than I expected -- we keep our house around 20-22 C in the winter.



It's because the pipes that lead to the radiator is in my room and since the pipes are hot , they make the room warmer.



winemaker81 said:


> your wine is brand new -- it's not going to taste good at this point. Time is your friend.
> 
> As long as the wine doesn't freeze, the cooler temperature is fine.


Ok. Thanks a lot. 

I'll update the result at the time of bottling


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## winemaker81 (Nov 9, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> It's because the pipes that lead to the radiator is in my room and since the pipes are hot , they make the room warmer.


I had an apartment like that -- rooms closest to the boilers were ... boiling.



Xerxwine said:


> Ok. Thanks a lot.
> 
> I'll update the result at the time of bottling


Read the tasting notes from my *wine stix experiment*. This demonstrates how wine can change over time. We bottled these wines last month and are very pleased with the result.


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 9, 2021)

as @winemaker81 said your wine is fine, it takes time for the yeast to do their work and settle.
Cold will not hurt the wine, I have examples here where the garage is the winery and it gets to 26F or I have stuff in a freezer at -10F. As long as the glass carboy doesn’t crack it eventually warms back up and finishes. Biological reactions stop at about 3C, a malolactic/ organism fermentation stops at 11 to 12C. Chemical reactions slow down 50% every 10C but never actually stop.
Hot temperatures will speed reactions which include old age in the wine. Hot will speed things if you are not patient.
My compromise would be to create a box on an outside wall to keep most of the temperature away from the ferment and slow the age process. (ex furniture or table or cardboard on a cold outside wall)


Xerxwine said:


> Is it better to bring it inside? or is that cold weather fine?


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## Xerxwine (Nov 11, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I had an apartment like that -- rooms closest to the boilers were ... boiling.
> 
> 
> Read the tasting notes from my *wine stix experiment*. This demonstrates how wine can change over time. We bottled these wines last month and are very pleased with the result.


Should I buy toasted oaks and add them to the wine or is it too late?


Rice_Guy said:


> as @winemaker81 said your wine is fine, it takes time for the yeast to do their work and settle.
> Cold will not hurt the wine, I have examples here where the garage is the winery and it gets to 26F or I have stuff in a freezer at -10F. As long as the glass carboy doesn’t crack it eventually warms back up and finishes. Biological reactions stop at about 3C, a malolactic/ organism fermentation stops at 11 to 12C. Chemical reactions slow down 50% every 10C but never actually stop.
> Hot temperatures will speed reactions which include old age in the wine. Hot will speed things if you are not patient.
> *My compromise would be to create a box on an outside wall to keep most of the temperature away from the ferment and slow the age process. (ex furniture or table or cardboard on a cold outside wall)*


Yes I should create a box. You are right. Thanks a lot


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 11, 2021)

oak can be toasted at 150C and higher, ie a coffee roaster, there are several species which have been used for flavoring. The old purpose was to keep wine in wood barrels which were made from oak, toasting was a method for cleaning the barrel. ,,,, no you could do it in the month it is used.
The standard container in Greek and Roman times was the clay amphora (wide mouth jar).


Xerxwine said:


> Should I buy toasted oaks and add them to the wine or is it too late?


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## winemaker81 (Nov 11, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> Should I buy toasted oaks and add them to the wine or is it too late?


Oak is used in 2 ways -- fermentation and aging. During fermentation the presence of oak helps preserve color and natural grape tannins.

During aging the oak provides flavoring, and can be added any time after fermentation completes.

Using oak or not is a personal decision -- do you want oak flavoring? You have 2 containers so you could add oak to one so you can see the difference.

White oak is the most commonly used wood, although other woods are usable but produce different flavors. Oak used for winemaking is generally aged at least 1.5 years, and as @Rice_Guy said, it's toasted.

How much to use? I use 1.5 to 2 oz (42.5 to 56.7 g) per 5 US gallons (19 liters). Dividing that out, it's 8.5 to 11.3 g per 4 liters. Folks that want a lighter flavor may age for only a month on oak, although for full flavoring 3 to 5 months is generally required.


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## Xerxwine (Nov 18, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> oak can be toasted at 150C and higher, ie a coffee roaster, there are several species which have been used for flavoring. The old purpose was to keep wine in wood barrels which were made from oak, toasting was a method for cleaning the barrel. ,,,, no you could do it in the month it is used.
> The standard container in Greek and Roman times was the clay amphora (wide mouth jar).


 
Great info as always. I decided to buy it from this guy I found on the internet. He sells toasted oaks. I don't have oven so I can't do it by my own. Hopefully he made it in a sanitized way and I don't die from aging my wine for a month with oak pieces. 



winemaker81 said:


> Oak is used in 2 ways -- fermentation and aging. During fermentation the presence of oak helps preserve color and natural grape tannins.
> 
> During aging the oak provides flavoring, and can be added any time after fermentation completes.
> 
> ...


The weather is getting very cold. probably 0 C at midnight and it might get colder until the next month.
I'm not sure if it's right to add the oak today and wait for it for another month? I think one of the users here told me wine freezing temperature is -15C. Should I add more oaks than the amount you said and then take them out after two weeks instead of a month and bottle it?


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 18, 2021)

Wine, any low soluble solids 11% alcohol liquid, will start to form ice crystals around -2C/ 28F. This is a slushy mix of ice and a concentrated liquid with a higher percentage alcohol. ,,, water freezes first and the percentage alcohol is dynamic, ,,, -15C sounds correct for creating a solid block with small pockets of very concentrated alcohol.
You can add oak when it is convenient, it will be extracting even below zero C. Your advantage at being above -2 is that tasting with removal of oak can be estimated.
A toasted oak is a sanitary product much the same as if you mixed charcoal from a fire into a liquid to decolonize it, your risk is if it has been contaminated after toasting.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 18, 2021)

While you can double the oak for a shorter period of time, it won't necessarily produce the same result. As the wine soaks into the wood over time, different flavors are extracted as the wood is toasted on the surface and less so below the surface.

However, if time is an issue for you (and it appears to be), you can try it. Keep in mind that after fermentation, time is an ingredient in everything you do with the wine.

Winemaking has few hard-n-fast rules, but it has a lot of guidelines based upon things folks have tried in the past.

Personally, I don't let wine go below 0. A friend had a case partially freeze (left it in the back seat of his car), and the wine tasted odd afterward. I had one glass and called it enough. He eventually finished the case (we were young and the wine contained alcohol, so he ignored the taste!  )


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## Xerxwine (Nov 20, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> Wine, any low soluble solids 11% alcohol liquid, will start to form ice crystals around -2C/ 28F. This is a slushy mix of ice and a concentrated liquid with a higher percentage alcohol. ,,, water freezes first and the percentage alcohol is dynamic, ,,, -15C sounds correct for creating a solid block with small pockets of very concentrated alcohol.
> You can add oak when it is convenient, it will be extracting even below zero C. Your advantage at being above -2 is that tasting with removal of oak can be estimated.
> A toasted oak is a sanitary product much the same as if you mixed charcoal from a fire into a liquid to decolonize it, your risk is if it has been contaminated after toasting.





winemaker81 said:


> While you can double the oak for a shorter period of time, it won't necessarily produce the same result. As the wine soaks into the wood over time, different flavors are extracted as the wood is toasted on the surface and less so below the surface.
> 
> However, if time is an issue for you (and it appears to be), you can try it. Keep in mind that after fermentation, time is an ingredient in everything you do with the wine.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for your informative response. I'm very grateful for finding this forum

I won't try the oak. It's too late tbh. I'm pretty sure last night the weather was very cold because when I went outside today the water surfaces were frozen. 

I'm not even sure if the malolactic fermentation has finished or not because I want to bottle the wines tomorrow or the day after and I've heard it could cause the cork to pop out

BTW, should I use k-meta for cleaning the bottles I'm going to buy? after i use k-meta should i wash it again with boiled water so the taste of k-meta doesn't get into the wine? I wanna use k-meta for siphon hose and bottles before the final action

Sorry if I asked a lot of questions for this Thread


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## winemaker81 (Nov 20, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> should I use k-meta for cleaning the bottles I'm going to buy? after i use k-meta should i wash it again with boiled water so the taste of k-meta doesn't get into the wine? I wanna use k-meta for siphon hose and bottles before the final action


Yes, use K-meta. No, don't rinse. You should add K-meta to the wine anyway (1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons) as a preservative, so a bit more from the solution doesn't matter.

The folks who answer questions appear to enjoy it -- I know I do. Winemaking is boring 99% of the time, so this gives us something to think about. Besides, your situation is somewhat novel (for me anyway) and it's a nice change to have something different from the typical questions.


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 20, 2021)

1 you did not inoculate so you are probably safe, if you had inoculated the bacteria are inactive under 15C therefore when it warms up bottles could explode
2 meta and hot water is an either or choice. in a factory with new glass bottles we just use hot water, if reusing bottles I might put the chemical in


Xerxwine said:


> 1) I'm not even sure if the malolactic fermentation has finished or not because I want to bottle the wines tomorrow or the day after and I've heard it could cause the cork to pop out
> 2) BTW, should I use k-meta for cleaning the bottles I'm going to buy? after i use k-meta should i wash it again with boiled water so the taste of k-meta doesn't get into the wine? I wanna use k-meta for siphon hose and bottles before the final action


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## Xerxwine (Nov 22, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Yes, use K-meta. No, don't rinse. You should add K-meta to the wine anyway (1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons) as a preservative, so a bit more from the solution doesn't matter.
> The folks who answer questions appear to enjoy it -- I know I do. Winemaking is boring 99% of the time, so this gives us something to think about. Besides, your situation is somewhat novel (for me anyway) and it's a nice change to have something different from the typical questions.


I found someone who sells potassium metabisulfite which I thought it's impossible to find here. Since I have two containers (10 litre and 6 litre=4.5 gallons combined) would it be too much to add 1/4 tsp k-meta (potassium metabisulfite+acid citric)to each container? should I again wait before bottling since a rotten like smell is going to be produced?
btw I am going to buy a hand corker which is like this . cheapest one since i cant pay for the expensive one.
View attachment 81230


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## Xerxwine (Nov 22, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> 1 you did not inoculate so you are probably safe, if you had inoculated the bacteria are inactive under 15C therefore when it warms up bottles could explode
> 2 meta and hot water is an either or choice. in a factory with new glass bottles we just use hot water, if reusing bottles I might put the chemical in



I've bought new bottles. They look kinda delicate so i'm kinda afraid they might explode during corking or boiling for sanitization. I'll keep you updated.

Also regarding cork sanitization with sodium metabisulfite, wouldn't the taste of sodium get into the wine if i keep the wine bottle horizontally? I would love to know your opinion regarding this


Edit: in case i want to use K-meta for bottles? do i need to fill them up with k-meta or just a little amount + shaking is enough?


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 22, 2021)

how much? a cork floated in sanitizer might pick up 0.1ml/ gm of liquid which is 1.5% Na meta therefore the risk is .0015gm meta which is say 10% sodium therefore you think the taste of 0.00015 gm sodium diluted into 750 ml would change the taste.


Xerxwine said:


> Also regarding cork sanitization with sodium metabisulfite, wouldn't the taste of sodium get into the wine if i keep the wine bottle horizontally?


Splashing is typical for bottles as well as corks.
note a cork floated in sanitizer for a month will probably develop mold and need to be tossed
A treatment of wine might be 50 ppm K meta/ 0.2 gm per gallon. There are calculators that give a specific dosage vs pH on winemakermagazine.com


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## winemaker81 (Nov 22, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> Since I have two containers (10 litre and 6 litre=4.5 gallons combined) would it be too much to add 1/4 tsp k-meta (potassium metabisulfite+acid citric)to each container?


Don't add citric acid to the wine; that's for making a sanitizing solution. We use the term "K-meta" interchangeably, so your confusion is not a surprise.

1/4 tsp K-meta powder in each container is too much. Put 5 Tbsp pure water in a glass, add a scant 1/4 tsp K-meta and stir well. Add 2 Tbsp of the water to the smaller container, and 3 to the larger. This will NOT produce a smell like the K-meta water, which is a MUCH higher concentration of K-meta.

The hand corker should work.


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## Xerxwine (Nov 28, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> note a cork floated in sanitizer for a month will probably develop mold and need to be tossed


You mean once i soak it and cork the bottle, there is still a chance for the cork to develop mold? 



winemaker81 said:


> 1/4 tsp K-meta powder in each container is too much. Put 5 Tbsp pure water in a glass, add a scant 1/4 tsp K-meta and stir well. Add 2 Tbsp of the water to the smaller container, and 3 to the larger. This will NOT produce a smell like the K-meta water, which is a MUCH higher concentration of K-meta.


Sorry for being a noob, but by pure water you mean boiled water, right?

Also should i sanitize the bottles with potassium metabisulfite as well? or should i use sodium? in case I clean the bottles with sodium, do I need to wait for it to get dried?

Sorry if I'm asking a lot of question. Today my corker has arrived and I will probably start bottling.

Also regarding my siphon hose which is like the picture below, should i put the head inside kmeta water and suck the other side? would that be ok? I was wondering if drinking kmeta (of course by accident) could be dangerous


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 28, 2021)

mold will grow if there is oxygen and a food source. The inside of the bottle is not a good environment for mold with no air and alcohol. The exposed cork can have mold if some wine leaks (bad cork) but most corks are good enough to prevent this.


Xerxwine said:


> You mean once i soak it and cork the bottle, there is still a chance for the cork to develop mold?
> should i put the head inside kmeta water and suck the other side? would that be ok?


well I have sucked meta sanitizer, ,, which has SO2 which is toxic, ,, and wound up coughing for half an hour. BUT a decade later I am alive. , ,, and have done the same with a gas tank and wound up coughing for half an hour, but am alive. . . . .at the ppm which is used meta is about as toxic as gasoline. A lot of us have done it but we quickly decide to do something else as fill the tube in a flat bowl.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 28, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> You mean once i soak it and cork the bottle, there is still a chance for the cork to develop mold?


No, the cork in the bottle won't grow mold inside. It was an illustration -- put K-meta water in a pan, float a cork, and leave it there for a month. Even though it's a sanitizing solution, with time it will lose strength and the _wet _cork will grow mold.

There are 2 schools of thought regarding corks. One action is to treat corks briefly with a sanitizing solution right before bottling.

The other choice is to take the corks from the original packaging only as needed, no treatment, and seal the bag well in between uses. This is what typically happens in commercial wineries -- open a bag of corks and dump it into the hopper of the bottling machine.

Both methods are fine -- use whichever you feel most comfortable with.

Note on mold -- I used natural corks up until about 4-5 years ago. My cellar has a variable humidity -- in my area humidity varies from 30% to 30,000% (ok, maybe I'm exaggerating _just_ a bit). A lot of my corks grew mold on the outside of the cork. I washed the top of the bottle to remove the mold before opening, and immediately tossed the cork. I switched to a synthetic cork (Nomacorc) and that solved my problem.



Xerxwine said:


> Sorry for being a noob, but by pure water you mean boiled water, right?


EVERYONE is a noob at first -- no need to apologize!

You can use any potable water -- some folks use distilled water, but boiling your water and letting it cool is fine.



Xerxwine said:


> Also should i sanitize the bottles with potassium metabisulfite as well?


It's a good idea to rinse the bottles with K-meta water -- do not rinse, just shake off the excess. While K-meta is recommended, NA-meta works just as well. If you have NA-meta, use it.

You put K-meta powder in the wine as a preservative and antioxidant, the little bit in the drops in the bottle just add a bit more. While wet SO2 gas is evaporating and protecting from contamination from the air.



Xerxwine said:


> Sorry if I'm asking a lot of question. Today my corker has arrived and I will probably start bottling.


Congrats!!!



Xerxwine said:


> Also regarding my siphon hose which is like the picture below, should i put the head inside kmeta water and suck the other side? would that be ok? I was wondering if drinking kmeta (of course by accident) could be dangerous


No picture was attached.

If you have a plain siphon hose, then yeah, you have to suck on it to get the siphon flowing. I have several auto-siphon units, which start the siphon with a pumping action. If you can get one, it's worth it!

I don't believe consuming a tiny amount of K-meta is dangerous, but it's nothing you want to do on purpose!!!  

I have gotten some in my mouth before -- between the fumes and the taste, it will make you cough. I immediately rinsed my mouth out with water, and spit it out.


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## Xerxwine (Dec 2, 2021)

I bottled my wine that night. It wasn't perfect. I mean i was flustered and confused and scared at the same time. I was stressed. I tried to do everything you fine people told me. I guess i could do 90% of the work correctly. I don't say 100% because sanitization is not easy. Once you need to take the siphon hose out, put it on the counter and then reuse it or your hand touches somewhere and you have to touch the equipment that are going to contact the wine.
Also the corks were super hard to push in. I had to boil them and pick them up from boiling water and instantly push them inside with my hand corker. But then again beside all of these, I guess everything went as planned.

Many thanks to @winemaker81 @Rice_Guy You guys rock. I highly appreciate your help during the process of my wine making.

I tasted the wine and it tastes good. But again I don't have experienced people like you her to taste the wine and tell me if it's good or not.

for my last question, I think I'm gonna make a white wine now. My question is can I try the same strategy that I applied in red wine making (adding 500 gram of sugar(for 25 kg of grape) and no yeast (go natural)) or is white wine different since there are no seeds or skin and just juice?

All the best


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## winemaker81 (Dec 2, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> I bottled my wine that night. It wasn't perfect. I mean i was flustered and confused and scared at the same time. I was stressed. I tried to do everything you fine people told me.


Congratulations!

Now relax!  

Wine is tolerant of things -- we go to great lengths to ensure sanitation as a protective measure, but wine can typically handle more "stuff" than we allow to touch it. We are being cautious to help ensure a good result -- but no winemaking process is perfectly safe. We simply do our best.



Xerxwine said:


> Also the corks were super hard to push in. I had to boil them and pick them up from boiling water and instantly push them inside with my hand corker.


Low end corkers can be difficult to use, but you go the job done!



Xerxwine said:


> Many thanks to @winemaker81 @Rice_Guy You guys rock. I highly appreciate your help during the process of my wine making.


I feel comfortable speaking for others, in saying that we help folks because we choose to. It's gratifying to pass the knowledge along -- folks I was mentoring a few years ago are now mentoring others. In a year or two, YOU may be mentoring others. You probably don't believe that now, but success breeds success, so you produce future wines, your confidence will increase.



Xerxwine said:


> I tasted the wine and it tastes good. But again I don't have experienced people like you her to taste the wine and tell me if it's good or not.


There is a simple test to determine if your wine is good -- do YOU like it? If so, it's good.

Will you make better wine in the future? Yes, if you keep making wine, yours will improve. There is always room for improvement. Put a bottle away and don't touch it for a year, then compare it to newer wines.



Xerxwine said:


> I think I'm gonna make a white wine now. My question is can I try the same strategy that I applied in red wine making (adding 500 gram of sugar(for 25 kg of grape) and no yeast (go natural)) or is white wine different since there are no seeds or skin and just juice?


It depends on the juice. If it's freshly pressed juice with nothing added, it's got yeast in it from the crushing process. If the juice has been processed at all (other than crush/press), then it may not so you'd be better off adding commercial yeast.


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## ratflinger (Dec 2, 2021)

Xerxwine - you really need to invest in a floor corker. The cheaper Portuguese unit is just fine, I've had mine for years with no issues. Cleanliness is more of a thought process, you make your plans and optimise your procedures to minimize contamination. It is practically impossible to sterilize, but you can sanitize. I am nowhere as clean as Winemaker81 is, but I have yet to spoil a bottle of wine, and I've had some on the shelf for 3 years. As for cleaning bottles I use a 2-step process where I soak in Easy Clean (peroxide based), which eats organics. I then rise that with Beer Clean (a no rinse chlorine sanitizer). When I started I only used Easy Clean, with no issues, but then decided I wanted to be 'sure'. I don't clean my corks, I take them out of the bag and use them, but I also never reuse corks either. You spoke of your bottles being thin, where did you get them? (sorry, didn't read the whole thread). From a supply store - you should be fine. From donations, etc - there you need to be diligent, some commercial bottlers are going with thinner, thus cheaper, bottles. Price on the original wine means nothing when looking at the bottle. I toss a lot of commercial bottles for their thinness.

Sounds like you are on the right path, just remember this is supposed to be 'fun', so don't worry too much.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 2, 2021)

While I agree that a floor corker is much better, @Xerxwine's situation may make that solution not feasible. A double-lever corker is still an improvement.



ratflinger said:


> Cleanliness is more of a thought process, you make your plans and optimise your procedures to minimize contamination.


This may be the best description I've read. Form a plan and implement it as much as possible.


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## Xerxwine (Dec 3, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I feel comfortable speaking for others, in saying that we help folks because we choose to. It's gratifying to pass the knowledge along -- folks I was mentoring a few years ago are now mentoring others. In a year or two, YOU may be mentoring others. You probably don't believe that now, but success breeds success, so you produce future wines, your confidence will increase.


I highly doubt I becoem that good to mentor others. But we'll see 



winemaker81 said:


> There is always room for improvement. Put a bottle away and don't touch it for a year, then compare it to newer wines.


That's perfect advice.I'm gonna do that.

Today I checked the bottles. It's very hard to see the inside since the color of he glass is green. But I think there are some lees at the bottom. I think i bottled too soon. I read somewhere that you should lay bottles on its side. The bottles have been upright for the past few days. Should I go ahead and put them on their sides? Will lees get mixed with the wine?



ratflinger said:


> you really need to invest in a floor corker.


I highly doubt I make wine more than twice a year at most. So I don't really need a pro corker. Also as I already mentioned I live in an Islamic country and it would be too much f a trouble to sell them.


ratflinger said:


> Easy Clean


We don't have teh ready product here. I bought sodium metabisulfite and Potassium metabisulfite. Haven't used the sodium one yet btw


ratflinger said:


> You spoke of your bottles being thin, where did you get them?


I bought it from a guy who made them. I saw an add on a website similar to craigslist.

Here are my bottles. There's one plastic bottle because I didn't have any bottle available since 2 of the bottles I bought had broken.








ratflinger said:


> Sounds like you are on the right path, just remember this is supposed to be 'fun', so don't worry too much.


Thanks a lot man. I will be more relaxed next time


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 3, 2021)

It is not too unusual to have sediment in a wine. The normal answer is to be careful pouring and let the solids in the bottle. ,,, I have had this too and for the one bottle that went into a contest I carefully siphoned the top of two bottles and corked the new clean one, ,,, and then drank the residuals at home.
Upright storage is not recommended with natural corks. Cork can dry out and extra oxygen enters the wine. This gets serious if you keep wine for ten years but for under a year you should be OK.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 3, 2021)

Xerxwine said:


> Today I checked the bottles. It's very hard to see the inside since the color of he glass is green. But I think there are some lees at the bottom. I think i bottled too soon. I read somewhere that you should lay bottles on its side. The bottles have been upright for the past few days. Should I go ahead and put them on their sides? Will lees get mixed with the wine?


Bulk aging at least 3 months is recommended. Next wine, wait longer to bottle. The lees is more unsightly than anything, it won't hurt you to drink it. One solution is to stand a bottle up a week before you use it, then carefully decant it.

After bottling, leave the bottles standing up for a few days. Pushing the cork into the bottle compresses the little air in the bottle, and it will equalize fairly quickly. If the bottle is on its side during this time, it may push wine out past the cork. After that, as @Rice_Guy said, it's better to lay the bottles on their side if using natural corks.

I use Nomacorcs, a synthetic cork, and can stand the bottles up. However, a lifetime of habit makes me lay the bottles on their sides.


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## ratflinger (Dec 3, 2021)

Xerxwine - that's right, I forgot you are in a difficult situation for wine making. All-in-all I'd say you are doing quite well, you have little choice but to work with what you have.

Also, EasyClean is sodium percarbonate. Perhaps you have OxyClean there (it is a laundry stain remover). You just want one that has no perfumes or dyes added to it.


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