# Marquette versus Frontenac



## StevenD55

Can anyone tell me reasons why to select one over the other variety?


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## grapeman

Marquette makes a pretty nice red wine and has a relatively short growing season need. Sugar levels get as high as Frontenac, but there is quite a difference in acid levels. Frontenac will typically have 25-50% more acid as Marquette. Frontenac also has a much stronger flavor to it and not always in a good way. Marquete is vigorous whereas Frontenac is VIGOROUS. I continue to plant Marquette but have no plans on planting more regular Frontenac.


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## StevenD55

Thanks. 

The short growing season is good for where I live. Although this year was not bad all the way through October. I. planted 3 Frontenacs 5 yrs ago and they were stunted. So I transplanted them to a better location and they did very well. So I planted 7 more Frontenacs and 7 Marquettes. I was going to plant all Frontenac until I learned of the acidity. So now it's decision time. 

Thanks for the input.


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## Masbustelo

Be sure to take a look at Petite Pearl.


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## StevenD55

Interesting looking grape. Sort of like my Valiants it seems but with potentially higher sugar it appears.


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## TonyR

Had Frontenac and Frontenac Gris , pulled them all because of the acid. Planted Petitr Pearl, acid levels are fantastic and the wine is not to bad.


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## CTDrew

I agree with the other posts Marquette is a much nicer grape to work with and results in very nice red wines for me. It has vigor but one pruning in season is all it needs to stay on track. A friend of mine with a commercial vineyard has it trained top wire cordon and he finds it doesn't need in season pruning trained like that. 

Frontenac, for me, is hard to work with making wine and has been extremely vigorous for me too, needing several pruning pases during the growing season to keep it in check. Good thing I only have 5 vines of it.


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## dorfie

I also prefer Marquette over Frontenac for wine. 
There is however the fact to consider, that Marquette is quite a bit less hardy than Frontenac, at least it is for us up here in ND. We get fairly consistent yields from Frontenac, and i wish the same could be said about Marquette. 
I'm not sure where you are located Steve, but i know that Colorado ranges in hardiness zones from 2b-7a, which i quite a range. if you are near the lower end of the range i would advise you to take hardiness into account. 
I also recommend Petite Pearl it has performed quite well for people up here, and wine made from it is pretty good.


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## StevenD55

dorfie,

I am east of Palisade in the Colorado River Basin. It can get stay -20 for extended periods in some years. I'm in sort of a Zone 4b I think for the most part. But, my neighbor had a great crop of Limberger's this year that's a Zone 6 grape. Some years, like this one, my Cab Sav produced. Some years, like last year, not even the Valiant's put on anything. 

The Petite Pearl is tempting. But, are those grapes as small and compact on the clusters as Valiants? 

Thanks.


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## TonyR

Don't know about Valiants, but the Petite Pearl is a small compact grape. 2 years ago ( last year BAD late frost) my Petite Pearl TA was 7.6


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## dorfie

StevenD55 said:


> dorfie,
> 
> I am east of Palisade in the Colorado River Basin. It can get stay -20 for extended periods in some years. I'm in sort of a Zone 4b I think for the most part. But, my neighbor had a great crop of Limberger's this year that's a Zone 6 grape. Some years, like this one, my Cab Sav produced. Some years, like last year, not even the Valiant's put on anything.
> 
> The Petite Pearl is tempting. But, are those grapes as small and compact on the clusters as Valiants?
> 
> Thanks.



ahh so you're in one of the variable places for temperature. Well then you can almost throw out my comments on hardiness haha, because like you said some years nothing will put on fruit if the winter's bad. 
It has been almost two months since i was counting and measuring grapes, and i didn't personally measure the PP but i would say that i think they are and even smaller grape size than valiant. probably smaller cluster size as well, but might be near the same cluster size. 
it is supposed to be fairly productive, not all of ours were in full production this year, so i can't comment specifically on that. 
i would say that PP would be a good choice with the Marquette, i think that it is hardier than Marquette. 
if i may, if you can grow Cab Sauv, why are you looking for these "super hardy" varieties? I am moving a bit out of my realm, because i'm less familiar with the warmer zone grapes, but why not look at some other grape varieties as well? Noiret or Chancellor perhaps? i don't have much knowledge on these, but i have heard good things about their wine. Just a thought to possibly consider.


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## StevenD55

dorfie

I had several Cab Sauv vines. One is doing ok after 5 years. One dies back to the base every year and the other died completely. So it's a little harsh for those. 

Funny you would mention Noiret. I've been looking for those. Double A says out of stock. Do you know of another supplier?

Chancellor is one I know little about.


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## StevenD55

TonyR said:


> Don't know about Valiants, but the Petite Pearl is a small compact grape. 2 years ago ( last year BAD late frost) my Petite Pearl TA was 7.6




Worth a look it seems. 

Thanks.


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## ceeaton

StevenD55 said:


> I had several Cab Sauv vines. One is doing ok after 5 years. One dies back to the base every year and the other died completely. So it's a little harsh for those.
> 
> Funny you would mention Noiret. I've been looking for those. Double A says out of stock. Do you know of another supplier?



http://www.graftedgrapevines.com/shop-online2 has Noiret in stock.

Amazing that your Cab Sauv vines stay alive. We don't grow it around here because it is considered a Zone 7 vine. We are Zone 6b and it rarely gets below -5*F, and if it does it might be for one or two nights. The vineyard I got grapes from this fall had Cab Franc, Dornfelder, Noiret and Regent available. Most of those are Zone 6 hardy grapes (Noiret is a 5).

I would stick with www.nevinesupply.com and there hardier versions. I would hate to get an established/trained vine knocked back to the ground in a bad winter, I'd aim for as hardy as I can get.

I was thinking of planting a couple of Marquette vines but worry that they will be too vigorous around here and might stick with Cab Franc and Dornfelder.


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## grapeman

StevenD55 said:


> dorie
> 
> I had several Cab Sauv vines. One is doing ok after 5 years. One dies back to the base every year and the other died completely. So it's a little harsh for those.
> 
> Funny you would mention Noiret. I've been looking for those. Double A says out of stock. Do you know of another supplier?
> 
> Chancellor is one I know little about.


 

Check with Eric Ambers from The Grafted Grapevine. They currently list it as in stock. http://www.graftedgrapevines.com/shop-online2/interspecific-varieties-red

Well Craig beat me to that one since he apparently posted it as I typed it!


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## ceeaton

grapeman said:


> Well Craig beat me to that one since he apparently posted it as I typed it!



And where do you think I get all of my information? From your threads! Thanks for all the valuable information you share with us Rich!


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## StevenD55

ceeaton said:


> Amazing that your Cab Sauv vines stay alive. .



It's nip and tuck where I am. In the Grand Junction area, Cab Sauv seems to survive ok. Must be the intensity of the sun during the day at our latitude or something. I also have a fairly steep south facing slope behind my vines that may contribute. I have some Jupiters that are Zone 5 that do pretty well closer to that hill. But further away, the Jupiters suffer a little.

Thanks for the contact info.


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## StevenD55

grapeman said:


> Check with Eric Ambers from The Grafted Grapevine. They currently list it as in stock. http://www.graftedgrapevines.com/shop-online2/interspecific-varieties-red
> 
> Well Craig beat me to that one since he apparently posted it as I typed it!



Thank you!


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## grapeman

Also if the Noiret does well there the Corot Noir likely will also and makes just as good if not better wine than the Noiret. Noiret has a peppery flavor, the Corot Noir a nice black cherry nose and taste as well as some nice soft tannins. I have made wine from both, but they both freeze too much for my comfort.


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## StevenD55

grapeman said:


> Also if the Noiret does well there the Corot Noir likely will also and makes just as good if not better wine than the Noiret. Noiret has a peppery flavor, the Corot Noir a nice black cherry nose and taste as well as some nice soft tannins. I have made wine from both, but they both freeze too much for my comfort.



So many grapes do little time and space. 

Another one to investigate.

Thanks


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## StevenD55

Can't believe it's been that long since I posted this. 

Anyway, to update, Frontenac and Marquette vines are both doing pretty well. I had a few pounds of Marquette's that I let sit on the vine until everything else ripened. The sugar content got to be close to 30° Brix. Yeah, it was pancake syrup. 

We had an interesting spring though. It warmed up enough that almost everything thought it was time to bud out. But then we got two hard freezes. Very few fruit trees are producing anything. Frontenac's, Valiant's and Marquette's had all popped to the point of a few small leaves and flower buds when the freezes hit. Of all my vines, the Marquette's suffered the worst. Valiant's worked through it without much damage at all and Frontenac's experienced some damage, but still worked through it. The poor Marquette's looked pretty sad, except for one vine that seemed to take it in stride, which was strange. The attached photo is from the morning of the hard freeze. I tried spraying some water on the buds, but that didn't work very well. 

Anyway, all are producing grapes now fairly well, but the ripening will be very uneven this year. I suspect birds will be relentless since that will be about all there is in the way of fruit to pick on. I rec'd an email from the Colorado State Biologist stating that bears could be a problem as well since pretty much all of their forage froze out in the high country. Oh boy!!! 

Could continue to be a challenging year.


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## jimmyl

Steve im going to put in a small backyard vinyard just south of montrose, about 75 vines. marquette, bluebell, itaska, swenson red, traminette, and america to see if it will make here. i read that pierces has been detected in delta and phyloxeria at one vinyard around the junction so im sctratching my head on cold hardy varietys that may or may not have any resistance. i have raised champanel and america in southern oklahoma, champanel is totally immune to pierces but is listed as zone six


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## NorthSlopeVineyard

I'm looking for some advice here:
Based on the Marquette parentage, I've treated it like Pinot Noir and expected results like pinot as well. My first real vintage was 2016. Numbers were good, 3.4 pH, 27 brix, give or take. I fermented until dry on RC212, about 8 days, then pressed by hand. Fermentation temps peaked around 79, ambient fermentation temp held steady at about 68. I racked gross lees and initiated mlf, aged on french oak chips, etc.

The first lot was bottled in May 2017, the rest remains aging. 

The wine is very drinkable, especially for a young wine, but not Pinot like at all. It does not taste very acidic, the fruit is somewhat muted, and the fruit I do get is very dark fruit, plum, even prune, with some spice. The nose has a slight rubbery smell, but it isn't bad. The wine has a fairly heavy body, especially for a hybrid. I like it and think it's a good wine, but it is nothing like what I expected. I thought it would be much lighter, fruiter, and more acidic.

I'm looking for any recommendations on my method, especially yeast selection.
Does anyone have a Marquette they are really proud of that would be willing to share their methods? I'm growing in south central MT, zone 5a. Picking fruit at about 2550 GDD, with a season total of around 2700 GDD. I'm a little over a month out on picking, so any help would be great.


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## GreginND

It is darker and richer than pinot noir. It doesn't have a lot of natural tennis, so it benefits greatly from oak. I have a friend who makes his in a pinot noir style and leaves it in the barrel for a couple of years. It is remarkable. It can have a bit higher acid sometimes. I have only used 71b with it because mine typically have higher acid that I want to remove. I love the dark mocha complexity of this grape. I'm asking $27 a bottle for it here. It's selling out fast.


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## NorthSlopeVineyard

Do you pick based on sugar, acid, or something else? I have the luxury of letting the brix go very high (i can pick at 28 with several weeks before frost). I'm thinking of picking a little earlier, maybe at 25 brix to help preserve more fruitiness in the wine. Any suggestions?


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## GreginND

I would pick it around 25 if I had my druthers. It doesn't usually get much higher than that around here. But the most important thing is to follow the acid levels and pick based on your optimal level. My best Marquette was made with grapes that were crushed and then frozen until I could make the wine. The thawing process was like a few days cold soaking and helped the wine tremendously.


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## StevenD55

jimmyl said:


> Steve im going to put in a small backyard vinyard just south of montrose, about 75 vines. marquette, bluebell, itaska, swenson red, traminette, and america to see if it will make here. i read that pierces has been detected in delta and phyloxeria at one vinyard around the junction so im sctratching my head on cold hardy varietys that may or may not have any resistance. i have raised champanel and america in southern oklahoma, champanel is totally immune to pierces but is listed as zone six



Jimmy....Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. 

I had heard that phylloxera had hit GJ. I don't know where else, if at all on the west slope it's been encountered. I did not know that Pierce's disease had hit in Delta. I guess Marquette is a bit susceptible. We might have to start. _One other thought on phylloxera resistance might be to order grafted vines that utilize phylloxera resistant roots._

If not mistaken, your bluebell may be a lot like my Valiant. But I think all of those varieties should grow ok in Montrose. I grew up a few miles south of there and so I know the climate pretty well and know that Montrose is in a bit of a snow shadow. 

One issue I've had with the Zone 3 grapes though is that those varieties tend to bud out early and then are more susceptible to frost. My Marquette's suffered the most of all of mine this year. Just a thought though. You might want to consider Noiret for red, Aurore, or similar for white. Both produce real nice large clusters and are easier to pick than my Valiant and I suspect Bluebell. My Noiret vines are in their second year, but my neighbor has put in a lot of those and doing quite well. The berries are larger and clusters are really nice to handle with usually only 2 seeds per grape.

Incidentally, some Zone 6 grapes grow here near Glenwood Springs. Baco Noir is listed as Zone 6, but acts more like Zone 4 in my opinion. I'm not saying I'd recommend that vine necessarily. It's high in acid like Frontenac though, if you like that. I have been growing Jupiter grapes too. Those are a bit spotty though, but really nice on good years with a grapefruit type flavor. My neighbor had Pinot Grigio, but took those out because ripening was not very consistent. 

Anyway, hope this helps a little. 

Good Luck!


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## UBB

GreginND said:


> . My best Marquette was made with grapes that were crushed and then frozen until I could make the wine. The thawing process was like a few days cold soaking and helped the wine tremendously.



What kind of container where the froze in? 5 gal pails?


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## GreginND

UBB said:


> What kind of container where the froze in? 5 gal pails?



No, I had them in 15 gallon sealed plastic barrels.


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## GreginND

StevenD55 said:


> One issue I've had with the Zone 3 grapes though is that those varieties tend to bud out early and then are more susceptible to frost. My Marquette's suffered the most of all of mine this year. Just a thought though.



Yes, this is a particular problem for Marquette. I would suggest Crimson Pearl, one of the newer varieties from Tom Plocher. They are much better growers for us here on the edge of zone 3/4. They are hardier than Marquette, don't bud out quite as early and produce outstanding wines.


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## StevenD55

GreginND said:


> Yes, this is a particular problem for Marquette. I would suggest Crimson Pearl, one of the newer varieties from Tom Plocher. They are much better growers for us here on the edge of zone 3/4. They are hardier than Marquette, don't bud out quite as early and produce outstanding wines.




What Brix do you expect out of Crimson Pearl?


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## NorthSlopeVineyard

Greg, thanks for the help.
I have separate batches of Marquette that are post-fermentation. We picked early to help keep lighter fruit flavors. They were around 24.5 Brix at harvest.

One batch was fermented on rc212 the other was on 77b. Both have MLF going right now. The rc212 batch did not clear hardly at all yet, but the 77b batch is very clear. 

My question is about the rc212 batch is in how it is responding to MLF. It is very very gassy, almost like a somewhat vigorous fermentation. Way more bubbles than any previous MLF. The bubbles have pushed through the airlock once, and the airlock was pushing a bubble every ten seconds or so and still is . Any ideas about this?


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## stickman

Maybe it has something to do with the 77B consuming a portion of the malic acid; therefore, this batch would have less malic for the ML.


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## FrontenacMan

This is an interesting discussion. I have 4 Frontenac and 4 Frontenac Gris. They are now 5 years old. At the time I started, Marquette were not readily avalialble. I've made both a red from the Frontenac and a white from the Frontenac Gris. I've tried blending with different concentrates. The results are good but I would like to try Marquette and Breanna. The question is how to migrate? Is grafting an option? The Frontenacs now have a strong root system. Starting over with new vines (and pulling the Frontenac) means waiting three years and hoping they survive the winter (I'm in Wisconsin). Any thoughts on this?


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## Masbustelo

I have been playing around with grafting apples this spring. I don't have any experience with grapes, but think at least in theory you should be able to do it. There are tricks with each specie, so for sure you would want to study up ahead of time.


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## Rice_Guy

FrontenacMan said:


> The question is how to migrate? Is grafting an option? The Frontenacs now have a strong root system. Starting over with new vines (and pulling the Frontenac) means waiting three years


My answer was to put the new variety (Briana a few years back, now Itasca) in next to the old, still harvest old on year one, and then give old vines a hair cut at ground level. 
Have not talked to anyone at the Milwaukee or Madison vintners clubs who grafts grapes. Several in Milwaukee are collecting/ grafting apple varieties. The key tweet on their grafting process is that it helps to wrap with Teflon tape and then overwrap as normal. The rest of process, second year wood , V cut, etc seemed normal. That said I would pick a convent two year old wood and try it.
Brianna will be foxy if you let the Brix run up, have you looked into Itasca? Word in the club is brix/ acid at harvest was good. Have only tasted Itasca once at state fair. Was interesting enough to cycle three vines into the vineyard.


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## FrontenacMan

Thanks for the info. I have not looked into Itasca. I will do so. Also interesting concept of growing new vines next to old and then cutting old vines after new ones mature. Will the new vines roots contend with the old? I don't know a lot about grape rooting systems but if they are anything like trees the roots sometimes extend out as far as the branch circumference. So will the roots extend out as far as the cordons?


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## montanarick

haven't done it personally but from what I've read there shouldn't be any problem grafting. Marquette makes some pretty good wine!


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## GreginND

Given the horrendous problems with Marquette die back all across this northerner region of the country this year, I am fed up with Marquette. My Marquette is 7 years old and it has died to the ground every year. Not a single grape yet. So, I would not recommend grafting it as there is a high likelihood it would die back beyond the graft.

If you are looking for a nice red grape that has more cold tolerance and not as early bud break (frost risk) I would suggest Crimson Pearl.


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## Masbustelo

Without topping the vines like in this video, starting July15- September 1st, you could try chip and t-bud grafting. If they take, your ahead of the game next year, if not do the two varieties together route next year.


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## wood1954

My Marquette are 4 years old now, last winter we had minus 25 for a few days, lost two weak plants and some minor stem damage but the rest of the plants are great. They waited till a day after our usual last frost date to bud out so didn’t have any frost damage. The last 2 years I’ve been buying my Marquette grapes from a vineyard south of Madison the wine is very good although they start picking when the acid is still too high. This year with my grapes I’ll wait till the acid begins to drop before I pick.


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## montanarick

GreginND said:


> Given the horrendous problems with Marquette die back all across this northerner region of the country this year, I am fed up with Marquette. My Marquette is 7 years old and it has died to the ground every year. Not a single grape yet. So, I would not recommend grafting it as there is a high likelihood it would die back beyond the graft.
> 
> If you are looking for a nice red grape that has more cold tolerance and not as early bud break (frost risk) I would suggest Crimson Pearl.


Sorry to hear about your Marquette. I'm in Montana just South of Kalispell and my Marquette's seem to be doing just fine - 5th year


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## Rice_Guy

FrontenacMan said:


> interesting concept of growing new vines next to old and then cutting old vines after new ones mature. Will the new vines roots contend with the old? I don't know a lot about grape rooting systems but if they are anything like trees the roots sometimes extend out as far as the branch circumference. So will the roots extend out as far as the cordons?


The rabbits in winter have been more of an issue than growing space, my set up is spaced with 2 passes of a riding lawnmower(8 ft x 8 ft). Redoing varieties also let me rethink about vine spacing since Frontenac grows wild and I have an acre to play with. As masbustelo noted it is a process and sooner is better than later.


GreginND said:


> Given the horrendous problems with Marquette die back all across this northerner region of the country this year, I am fed up with Marquette. My Marquette is 7 years old and it has died to the ground every year.
> If you are looking for a nice red grape that has more cold tolerance and not as early bud break (frost risk) I would suggest Crimson Pearl.


Marquette survived in SunPrairie 2018-9 and seems to be less buggy than petite pearl or Frontenac. Have wondered what the real cultural problems are on crimson pearl and last years Verona but haven’t broken down and ordered em yet. ! ! So many choices, , , wine takes so long ! !


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## HillPeople

After 6 years, I'd choose Frontenac over Marquette- both in the vineyard and winery.


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## Masbustelo

Rice_Guy mentioned Verona. I have Verona, this is their third year, first fruiting year. They have grown very nicely for me, handled minus 32 last winter with no problems. The vines are tidy, easy to train, downward trailing and vigorous, but not overly so. Dell Schott said they handled minus 40 in Minnesota with no problems. This will be the first harvest, raccoons willing. I have them on GDC.


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## HillPeople

Masbustelo said:


> Rice_Guy mentioned Verona. I have Verona, this is their third year, first fruiting year. They have grown very nicely for me, handled minus 32 last winter with no problems. The vines are tidy, easy to train, downward trailing and vigorous, but not overly so. Dell Schott said they handled minus 40 in Minnesota with no problems. This will be the first harvest, raccoons willing. I have them on GDC.


Yes- there are people in this latitude who have had great success with Verona, but I have none.


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## GreginND

I know that Dell lost his Marquette and Crimson Pearl this past winter. I don't know how his Verona fared.


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## Masbustelo

Here is what Dell had to say about Verona. "After brutal winter our Verona are doing well also. Many other varieties got severe damage in MN. Some vineyards hit -40F during the polar vortex".


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## treesaver

My verona suffered the spraying incident last spring, and lost nearly half. There have been a few vines that have come back out at grround level, but are starting over again! When I pruned this spring, they still had green wood, same with my concord and cataba, butdidn't lose as big of percentage of them as I did my verona. This would have been the first year to get a few grapes off of them, but alas, I'm not going to have enough to do anything with.


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