# Why are wines better with age?



## FABulousWines (Jun 18, 2013)

I had a lengthy discussion with a friend this weekend on wine making. He was very interested and I think he may just bite the bullet. There was only one question I had difficulty answering.

It is generally accepted and known for a long time that wine tastes better with age. But why? What is it that is going on, chemically or otherwise, that improves the taste of the wine? 

For purposes of this discussion I am talking about just wine bulk aging in a glass carboy. No oak, raisins or other things that are known to affect flavor. Just a finished liquid wine and time. Just what exactly is going on?


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## jswordy (Jun 18, 2013)

Chemists have been trying to decipher exactly what is going on as wine ages for a long time, and they have some guesses but not the full picture. There are myriad chemical reactions going on between compounds and to the compounds themselves when wine ages. It's a near-miraculous transformation, and I sometimes wonder how the first person who accidentally tasted an aged wine felt.

Because the interaction is so complex, even wine made from the same grapes and using the same processes in two different batches stored alike can vary in taste when aged, which is why winemakers blend their barrels together at bottling.


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## JohnT (Jun 18, 2013)

I agree with JS but would add the following.. 

The effect of age on wine differs from grape to grape. For example, a nouveau beaujolais does not really benefit from aging while a red zin almost requires it. 

JS is correct in saying that no one have the entire picture of what goes on, but some reactions are clear. 

I would say the most dramatic is the softening of tannins as a result of micro oxydation. This has an effect of making the wine less sharp/bitter and yeilds a general "softness" to the wine.


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## DoctorCAD (Jun 18, 2013)

My favorite analogy about wine aging...

Wine is like potato salad. The first day, potato salad tasted like potatoes, celery, onions and mayo (Dukes, of course). By the second day, it starts to taste much more blended. By the third day, all of those flavors are blended into one fantastic taste, the sharpness of the onion is gone, the starch of the potato is gone and all of the flavors are now one. 

Wine does the same thing, it just takes longer. At first it tastes like grape juice, alcohol, tannins and possibly oak. After a month or so, it starts to soften. Another 6 or so months and it starts to become a well blended taste and wine is now what you think when you drink it. It just keeps getting better (to some degree) to a 2 or 3 or 10 or more year life.


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## FABulousWines (Jun 18, 2013)

Thanks Jim; it would seem then that it is a difficult question which makes me feel a little better for not knowing the answer. 

Actually DoctorCAD, that is exactly how I described it to my friend, a blending of separates into a whole. But that only describes the effect and doesn't answer the cause or "why" part of the question.

John, I am interested in hearing more about micro oxidation. Can you elaborate on that?


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## JohnT (Jun 18, 2013)

FABulousWines said:


> John, I am interested in hearing more about micro oxidation. Can you elaborate on that?


 
Sure, 

Natural cork, as well as synthetic corks are not a perfect hermetic seal. The very small amount of oxygen can/will bleed through to the wine. This happens very slowly with natural corks, but is much quicker with synthetic corks. 

Tannins in wine are antioxidants. They serve to help protect wine against oxygen by binding with it, then settling out of the wine as sediment. 

In other words, over time, and because of this micro-oxidation, the tannins are reduced in your wine. This will tend to make your wine taste less sharp and bitter, and more smooth and well rounded.

Note: With stel vin (screw caps) all bets are off. Screw caps provide a perfect seal that will not allow micro-oxydation. Most professional wineries that use stel vins take this into acount and "pre-age" their wine before bottling.


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## GaDawg (Jun 18, 2013)

"Wine is a living liquid containing no preservatives. Its life cycle comprises youth, maturity, old age, and death. When not treated with reasonable respect it will sicken and die. " Julia Child


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## robie (Jun 18, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Tannins in wine are antioxidants. They serve to help protect wine against oxygen by binding with it, then settling out of the wine as sediment.
> 
> In other words, over time, and because of this micro-oxidation, the tannins are reduced in your wine. This will tend to make your wine taste less sharp and bitter, and more smooth and well rounded.



This is the very basis for why many French wines are not ready to drink for sometimes 10 years (or more) and why after all that time, they (in some peoples' opinions at least) become extraordinary wines. 

The longer a wine can age before it starts deteriorating, the better. Or, the longer one can protect the wine from oxidation and such, the further the wine will mature before it starts to fade. The idea is wine can continue to get better and better until external factors begin to destroy the wine.

One thing that can extend the possible aging time is tannins, because they protect the wine very well. So, if along with extraordinary sanitary conditions, one can introduce enough tannins to protect the wine for a much longer time, in the end, in many case one will end up with a much better wine... if one has the patience to wait ten or more years. Of course the presence of huge amounts of tannins will tend to discourage one from drinking such a wine too early.

Even the tannins themselves, as they mellow over time, will enhance the wine considerably.

Such wines, even whites, are fermented on some portion of the stems and seeds in order to extract their tannins. By the time the wine is racked off these, the tannin level is very high; much too high to drink the wine early. This, in turn protects the wine for a longer period of time, so the wine can develop.

This is one of the complaints the French had concerning the Paris competition of 1976. Supposedly, the French wines chosen were only a few years old and would (possibly) have developed into much better wine, had they been aged out. The American wines were at their peak being only a few years old; the French wines were considered very young, being less than 8 to 10 years old. That may or may not have been a solid argument, but IMO, the French do have a point.

This affect, which tannins have, is the reason I tell people that if they add tannin powder to their wines, they will need to age them longer. Longer, yes, but very likely they also will end up being a better wine.


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## FABulousWines (Jun 18, 2013)

That all seems counterintuitive to me. If it is the breaking down of the tannins that makes the wine better, why add more? Wouldn't the wine just peak sooner?
Or is it something else, like what the tannins actually _become_ that makes the wine better?


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## robie (Jun 18, 2013)

FABulousWines said:


> That all seems counterintuitive to me. If it is the breaking down of the tannins that makes the wine better, why add more? Wouldn't the wine just peak sooner?
> Or is it something else, like what the tannins actually _become_ that makes the wine better?



What the tannins become does make the wine better.

Not really counter-intuitive. As long as the tannins are there and not broken down yet, they continue to protect. The more tannins one adds, the longer it takes to break them all down, hence the longer the protection will last.

It is not just the breaking down of tannins that improves the wine, there are lots of good molecular things going on during aging while the wine is being protected partially by the tannins.

I am not a chemist or anything closely resembling one. These are things I have studied as an interested wine maker. There are those on the forum who most likely could explain this better.

Just understand that the more tannins present, the longer it will take for them to become broken down. In the meantime, they will help protect the wine.

This doesn't mean one should dump a whole bottle of tannin powder in one's batch of wine. There are other things to consider. Some wines don't get better with lots of time, nor do they all benefit from tannins.

What you should get out of this is tannins not only improve some wines, they also provide protection. The more tannins present, the longer that protection will last. The longer the wine is protected, the longer it will age before it goes "south". The longer the wine ages,the more mature it becomes.

If you want a wine to age longer and successfully, you will need great sanitation techniques and good tannins.


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## joeswine (Jun 18, 2013)

*The life and times of wine*

Robbie's right on, so let me add my two cents on top of his. NOT-- all wines are for aging, if you take into account the big reds,Amarone,Bordeaux ,merlot,chant and others while on the other hand whites aren't real meant for aging, WHY-- NOT ENOUGH STRUCTURE TO THEM, back to the solids, the natural make up of the grape or lack of in the juice,..light,vibration,chemistry,temperature ,all the items that effect the final ending, as well as what there stored in, caskets ,glass ,stainless steel, all have a barring on the taste profile and finish out come, and above all GOOD sanitation skills, front to back, what is good policy for aging wine, all the statements that this form has made are all quite true ,so take your pick it's all chemistry my friend..


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## robie (Jun 18, 2013)

Different folks have different tastes, too. To prove my point:

While in Italy recently, I spent some time with a young wine maker. He makes several great reds and 2 whites; both whites are each a blend. (He also makes a 2009 Amarone, which I'll keep for several more years... nice!!!)

He ages the whites about 2 years. He sent a case to a nearby restaurant in Verona, Italy and a case of the same to a restaurant in Britain. A few weeks later the Italian place asked if he could return the unopened bottles becasue his customers wanted a white that was bright, crisp and fresh; in other words, a younger wine. At about the same time the restaurant in Britain ordered 30 more cases saying their customers really enjoyed the smooth, maturity of his white. Go figure!

It's not just a matter of bottling and selling the same wine sooner and holding some for much later. Usually, to get a young, crisp, bright wine, compared to a mature, smooth aged wine, one has to "make" the two styles differently. In this Italian wine maker's case, he designed to wine for aging, so it is not likely the Italian restaurant would have liked his wine, even young.

Both styles have their place. One wine seller I know laughingly says that all wine needs to be aged; it is just that some get all the age they need setting on the car seat on the way home from the wine store.

Next time you drink a white, have a person with you order a more mature style of white, while you order a younger style white. Try them both and although you may prefer aged over youth, or visa-verse, hopefully you can appreciate both styles. Hey, that's part of the fun of wine!!!!! They all have their place.


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## GaDawg (Jun 18, 2013)

I believe one of the wines that won the 1976 tasting was a Chardonnay. I would think ageing probably is not a very good excuse for the French loss.

Robert Mondovi has written that one reason the French do not make superior wines is the lack of barrel rotation. They try to maximize there profits by using the barrels much longer than they should.

They did a tasting at U.C. Davis with the same white wine. One was tasted white and the other was tasted with food coloring so it appeared red. Naturally the red was judged the better wine. Don’t ya’ll think we all come to the table with our own preconceived notions?


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## robie (Jun 18, 2013)

Good comments.

Chardonnays are age-able, just not to the extent of a big Bordeaux red, of course. Depends again on whether one wants a crisp, bright youthful taste, compared to a smooth, mellow, mature taste. Both styles are great in their proper context.

Saying the French don't make a superior wine would be fighting words for them (not me!). Still, though I am not terribly fond of French wines, likely mainly because I couldn't afford their better wines even if I did enjoy their low fruit, high mineral taste anyway, to say the French don't make a superior wine is a bit of a stretch. But superior to what?!!! 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I think those with the big bucks for purchasing and collecting the greatest and best wines favor the French wines, whether many of us North Americans agree or not. Contest or no, they would laugh at the notion that French wines are not superior... In a huge way, I think this backs what you said about preconceived notions, not to mention the potential of bias.

Would anyone ever think that Mondavi DOESN'T have his own bias or preconceived notions?

Again, it's all a matter of taste. Few things, however, are more subjective or more biased than one's individual taste!!!


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## seth8530 (Jun 18, 2013)

I actually had a chance to talk to the head winemkaer at Robert Mondavi after a wine tasting. I was surprised to find that their yeast of choice is a yeast very similar to ec-1118 fermented under hot conditions for max colour extraction. I would of figured they would of used a gentler yeast at lower temperature. But to each his own?


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## FABulousWines (Jun 18, 2013)

Wow, what a great discussion this has turned into. It is giving me some great insights into wine making and I am greatly appreciative for all who posted!

My wife and I have been drinking commercial wines for many years, lots from local wineries and probably have no more than a year or two on them. However, as I am drinking more wine than other spirits these days I do tend to have older wines when we go out. I do find my tastes are more toward the older more mellow wines, and mostly dry reds. And that excites me that I am now able to produce this result for myself with a much lower price tag!


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## nucjd (Jun 18, 2013)

I have been into wine for quite some years as a "enjoyer" and not a "maker". One aspect that amazes me is the taste of a red just racked off of secondary into a carboy. When I first tasted it I was taken back and thought I had done something wrong. The best descriptor I have for this was ...tart... I could taste the base flavor in the background of the wine but the overwhelming front end of tartness and bitter tannin was astounding so much that I asked guys on here what it was I did wring and their response.... chill out, it is "green" give it time to do what it does. Lo and behold they were right. It is funny how the white wines coming out of secondary taste very close to the end product versus the red that farther out. I guess that is why it equates to much earlier drinking times with whites. The interplay with phenolic compounds and the slow oxidation is just amazing. With that said, as James Laube from Wine Spectator says if you don't like a wine when it is released for drinking aging it will not help anything. and he also says rare is wine that will age well and rarer is the person that will enjoy it. He is talking about the very old 1940 Petrus, not the 10 year old Caymus. But interesting observations none the less.


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## seth8530 (Jun 18, 2013)

I think another key part that has not yet been mentioned is some pretty complex acid chemistry that goes on during the aging process.


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## JohnT (Jun 19, 2013)

The one thing that amazes me about this forum is how a simply question can grow into a fantastic panel discussion. This is one of those cases.. 

Simple topics can be rather complex. This is the beauty of winemaking.

I agree with all that has been posted here and would like just to add a few more things. 

1) Aging really depends mostly on the grape and a particular wine. Some have much better tanninc structure than others. A chennin blanc, for example, has much less then a chardonnay. By and large, chardonnays benefit from several years of aging.

2) There is mention of the addition of tannins. It is important that folks do not go hog wild on this. I never ADD tannins, but somewhat CONTROL the amount of tannins that I extract at maceration. I macerate for a min of 6 days use the frequency of punching down to "sculpt" the amount of extraction I get. Some years, I may punch down 3 times a day, while other years I may punch down every other day. For kits or buckets, you may have no choice. If you are like me, however, and make from fresh grapes, you do not need to add any tannins.

3) As said I before, there is a whole bunch of stuff going on in a bottle as it ages. The softening of tannins is only the most obvious.


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## WI_Wino (Jun 19, 2013)

JohnT said:


> The one thing that amazes me about this forum is how a simply question can grow into a fantastic panel discussion. This is one of those cases..
> 
> Simple topics can be rather complex. This is the beauty of winemaking.
> 
> ...



How do you measure the amount of tannins to determine if you are going to punch the cap 1, 2, 3, etc. times a day?


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## JohnT (Jun 19, 2013)

WI_Wino said:


> How do you measure the amount of tannins to determine if you are going to punch the cap 1, 2, 3, etc. times a day?


 
Tannins and pigment go hand in hand. I assume by the amount of color exptracted.
Given the length of time it has been macerating, I have an expectation of the amount of color that I prefer. If the color realized is lighter than the color expected, I increase the frequency in which I punch down.


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## AKsarben (Jun 30, 2013)

Well, it is known what happens to wine when ages. 2 things are occurring. The wine's acids (and there are many) combine with the wines alcohols (and there are several) and form esters, that which you smell. This softens wine and give it the aromatic character in the glass.

Some tannins in the wine will finally degrade during the last bit of the oxygen use in the wine and will form new antrocyanins and give the wine a "soft" feel and more mellow. Works much better with certain wines that have tannins. Some are introduced tannins from oak. Some come from grape skins and some come from grape stems. Those from stems and seeds are not the best. Those that come from skins are the best. Wine is a living thing, it is born in the primary fermenter, is a juvenile during racking and filtration into tanks,and matures to adult hood in the bottle. And, gets old feeble and goes past it prime eventually in the bottle. Many things contribute to the slowing of aging to wine and that is what is so unique about it.


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## FABulousWines (Jun 30, 2013)

Vern, I appreciate the info! I suspected there was something going on with the acid and alcohol. Even after the first couple of weeks I can start to notice the alcohol "hotness" moving back and tapering off.


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## Geronimo (Jun 30, 2013)

Wow, great discussion. I've read numerous writings on this subject and they all go about the same way. The aging process is largely effected by the available components and the proportions. Which of course means it will be different for every wine. Each vintner will, over time, become exceedingly familiar with the grapes they grow and the resulting aging characteristics... so they can plan on how to peak the wine best. We all find that some reds hardly change at all over time, while others are awful until they have at least a year or two behind them. And even other reds will have a sudden change that occurs almost like a light switch is flipped.

Consider that some of the scientific experiments have produced products like post fermentation tannins that specifically target the wine's finish and mid-palate characteristics. 

With so many variables, I think the typical hobbyist wine maker needs to sample each batch and decide when a wine has aged to their liking. Also, can you really discuss aging without mentioning the practice of decanting and breathing a wine? I find many wines seem 'medicinal' or 'chemical' until they have a chance to breathe. But that changes with age, too. So many variables...


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## DaveL (Jun 30, 2013)

Just out of curiousity, how do commercial winneries age. I would imagine that often they bulk age in neutral barrels which continues to allow concentration through evaporation to occur. Is this correct? I assume that they also age some whites that don't require oak in stainless steel vats. That would seem an expensive proposition and tieing up the vats for long periods would seem unproductive. So does wine in Vats get bottled sooner?


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## Javila (Jun 30, 2013)

*Wine aging magic.*

Two cents here. I agree with micro-oxidation taking place in the barrel and bottle using a natural cork. That kinda explains why wineries have to top off the barrels regularly. ......so......Are we accomplishing anything by bulk aging in our carboys? Should we bulk age using a natural cork instead of the rubber bung? Or should I bottle after wine kit is complete so micro-oxidation can take place? I always wondered bout this. I don't know. Good topic.


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## ohbeary (Jun 30, 2013)

Here y' go guys, I'm no expert but I think you all have a small portion of the truth, this should make everything clear.
http://www.decanter.com/people-and-places/wine-articles/486706/unearthing-the-secrets-of-age


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## Geronimo (Jun 30, 2013)

The wine doesn't really concentrate via evaporation. The most volatile component is the alcohol, which means over a LONG time the wine will become less strong.

And yes, bulk aging in a glass carboy with a bung on it is still doing a lot to age the wine. Oxidation isn't a favorable change to be considered in any measurable amounts. 

Not all wines age favorably, and no wine ages forever. If you know for sure that your favorite super tuscan gets MUCH better over 3 years, then make enough of that so you can cellar it accordingly. But don't assume that every wine needs 3 years because many of them do not. 

This is a pretty good read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_wine


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## mcthomas (Jul 1, 2013)

Hmm.. When I started researching brewing wine,, I was dead set on brewing and clearing wine, and drinking it in under 2 weeks.. I think they call it hooch here, but, it is great wine/hooch,, that I have never had anyone turn their nose up at.. In fact, some that drink wine regularly that say,, the best wine they have had out of all store bought or home made wine.. High in fruit aroma, high in fruit flavor, good alcohol content, low on back end bite, or,, I can create typical store bought wine that leaves that twang in your throat and tastebuds.. All a matter of taste, but, I prefer the smooth clear taste of the fruit.. When someone can smell your wine and taste it and know what flavor it is,, before you tell them what it is... I have never tasted a Strawberry wine from a winery that I liked.. But, I love and everyone else loves my 2 week old Strawberry.. I made 4 - 1 gallon batches.. And I prefer my Hooch recipe, and so does everyone else to the wine recipe.. 
I go straight from Primary, into 2 days of secondary clearing, and then to the 1 gallon bottles, filling my 5ths from them.. Straight into the 18 bottle wine cooler.. Very few recipes require longer than 2 to 3 days of clearing.. And I stop the primary fermentation when I get the taste I want, and the SG gives me the ABV content I am looking for.. My wine never makes it 2 or 3 years, even when I brew double batch 5 gallon batches... 
And,, my favorite is a Blueberry brewed with Bread yeast at 13%ABV.. Ok,, that was where the bashing gets started.. I pull a vacuum to degass, and treat with Potassium Metabisulfate and Potassium Sorbate, and most wines,, I treat with Bentonite, after I hit it with hot water, and blend it in a super blender (Vitamix) for about 5 minutes on high.. 
I brewed the Dragon Pee wine twice.. Once with the EC-1118, and once with Bread Yeast.. everyone preferred the bread yeast.. got rid of the after bite,, left more of the fruit flavor, and aroma.. I cut the lemon juice back to a 1/2 bottle, and I put more sugar in, so I didn't have to brew down to SG 1.00, and still get the ABV that I want..
Something that brewing down to 1.00 or lower does to the taste of the wine.. 
In my opinion, it is the yeast, going from the Aerobic environment, to the Anaerobic.. I think, while the yeast are healthy, they are doing a good job,, but, when they start either starving, or killing themselves with their own alcohol, they put off tastes in the wine.. Best to sterilize them, and kill them, while they are still actively producing good tastes... and then, backsweeten the wine,, or play with your batches until you can stop them at the proper sweetness. Usually takes 3 or 4 tries to get that right...
To each his own, but, if you want to be able to drink about 70-80% of your wine in 2 weeks,,, start experimenting.. I ruined about 4 gallons of wine figuring it out.. Rushing it a bit too much.. Here is what I learned.. don't bother being concerned about tasting your wine, until it is cleared.. You get some idea in Primary, but, while in secondary,, don't expect it to taste good, until you clear it.. And,, you are not going to clear it, while it is full of gas.. Pull a good vacuum on it for about an hour, treat it, and watch it clear by the next morning.. 
The only wine that has not cleared in 24 hours has been one of my Concord Whites, and a White wine with Raspberry.. But, both were heavy bodied wines.. And if you want to see a bananna wine clear,, just put an extract made on the stove with old black bananas.. Wow, adds flavor, and will clear over night, like nothing else will clear.. 
And,, then,, take all of your left over fruits from several batches,, add back to a single must, add sugar,, and brew it again.. I have 3 batches of the best light bodied wine, that everyone has begged me to sell or give them bottles.. But, it is one of my favorites too,, so,, come and have a drink, and enjoy,, but, if I gave it away everytime I was asked for it,, I would never have any for myself.. 

If you make wine with Frozen concentrates,, and you are not drinking it in 12 to 14 days,, oh well.. I will be.. 
I went on 4 wine tours.. Tasted over 160 bottles of wine.. Can't say I found a single bottle better than any of my average wines, and none better than my favorites.. And, just to check,, I took 4 bottles of my favorite, and 4 small sample bottles with caps, and after the wine tasting,, I pulled them out of my jacket pocket, to let the taster, taste my wines.. On all of the tours,, their eyes got wide open, and they all said,, Wow,,you made this?? And,, the 4 bottles I took were bottled between 12 and 14 days.. 
So, don't be afraid of trying new things.. Brewing 5-1gallon batches instead of 5 gallons, and use different recipes, different yeasts, etc, and keep records of everything you do,, and notice how the wine matures in each stage.. Take one of your batches and whip air into it, every day in the primary, and one, keep it tightly sealed and see what a difference it makes.. Add more sugar to one, and stop it before it reaches SG 1.000, and let the other brew down as far as it goes, with the same batches.. You choose what you want to drink and when, and how.. 
Get you a couple of good scales and do everything by weights, and not volumes.. 
You'll find that you sugar recipes vary by at least 1/4 cups.. Backsweeten your gallons by using weights in quarts, and then multiply everything times 4 for your gallons.. But, never backsweeten, until your wine is perfectly clear.. And,, pull a vacuum on your wine a second time, at least 2 or 3 days after you stop the primary fermentation process... And,, if you have some sort of odd flavor in your wine,, before you bottle it,, aireate it heavily, and taste it again... You can do this 3 or 4 days in a row, if you need to... And,, some of your recipes will require some extra aging.. You will know which ones will need it.. Just about every receipe I have used rasins in, I have had to let sit longer.. I stopped using them... 
I know there are some of you out there that would like to have those 4 or 5 recipes that brew great wine in 2 weeks.. It is up to you to find them.. 
Since I just started brewing 2 or 3 months ago, I used alot of frozen concentrates.. White Grape, Peach, Grape, Berry Blend, strawberry breeze, White Grape Raspberry,, and as far as frozen fruit, Blueberry was absolutely fantastic, Blackberry, Raspberry, and mixes of those, Orange, and fresh banana.. All cleared in under 2 weeks... 
Try brewing at different temperatures.. I brewed a bunch in an old aquarium with 2 adjustable heaters.. I ran temps between 65degrees and 95 degrees to see the speed differences and the taste differences... The primary fermentation usually runs about 7 days on an average 11-13% ABV, but, can be done in 5 days on an average by raising the temp.. Run one batch with Nutrient and one without... 
It is all about experimenting.. 
So, Yes,, call it what you want.. Hootch is fine with me.. My drinkers call it wine.. Ha..Ha.. And,, if I mixed some of my brews in with one of your best brewers,, you would love and praise it... 
So,, fire it off,, Hooch this, Hooch that,, won't bother me a bit.. I sit here with 18 bottles of the best whatever you want to call it.. and only 2 of them, are what I consider, my worst wine,, but,, about half of the people that taste all of my wines,, say they really like them,, so, what the heck,, that isn't bad, out of 24 gallons of 1 gallon brews,, including every batch I have made in the last 3 months.. And the two gallons I don't like that much were someone else's recipe, and they both had raisins.. Banana and Raisin, and Orange and Raisin... And,, when I hand them out, as the first two samples,, 100% of the time,, everyone likes them.. They just aren't the Wow bottles as the rest of the 16 bottles.. 
Wineries are very regulated and restricted as far as what they can do to wine.. You are not, so enjoy doing what you want in your own lab.. 

And,, I want to say thanks to the one individual who commented privately to me on this forum about 3-4 months ago.. Explained about the yeasts, going through the two stages, etc... It was the missing link I was looking for to do what I wanted to do.. Understanding this, also has helped me to help two Alcoholics out of their delima.. And,, for those of you who think you know everything there is to know about wines, etc,, here is something for you to think about.. 
When you see those little starving kids on the TV infomercials,, and they are starving, and skin and bones,, but, have bloated bellies... the answer and keys to alcoholism, and brewing good wines, and keeping yourself healthy,, is in knowing the why behind why they look the way they do.. 
Then,, you will understand how an Alcoholic can have a single drink and be stoned,, or how he/she can get stoned, by just waking up, and walking around, or doing a little work.. They are not sneaking drinks while you are not looking,, it is something totally different going on.. I have seen it... Same thing with the starving kids, and the way they look... Making Wine/hooch can be as simple, or as complex as you want to make it.
Brew and enjoy..


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## robie (Jul 1, 2013)

Geronimo said:


> The wine doesn't really concentrate via evaporation. The most volatile component is the alcohol, which means over a LONG time the wine will become less strong.
> 
> And yes, bulk aging in a glass carboy with a bung on it is still doing a lot to age the wine. Oxidation isn't a favorable change to be considered in any measurable amounts.
> 
> ...



Don't quit understand what you are saying. In a wine barrel, a whole lot of water and a small amount of alcohol evaporate out continually, leaving head space in the barrel. Ex: in a 6-gallon barrel, one can loose as much as a 750 ml bottle every 4 to 6 weeks, depending on things like temperature and humidity.

In the winery, this head space is then filled with more straight wine. So the water and a small amount of alcohol are being replaced by wine, leaving the wine in the barrel more concentrated than before. Yes, the alcohol level does go down over time.

So, I don't understand why you say wine (in a barrel, at least) does not concentrate via evaporation.


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## joeswine (Jul 1, 2013)

*angels portion*

Robbie, you're quite right that is referred to as the Angel portion in wine circles especially from the old country. Y


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## Geronimo (Jul 1, 2013)

robie said:


> Don't quit understand what you are saying. In a wine barrel, a whole lot of water and a small amount of alcohol evaporate out continually



Hi Robie,

Can you point me to the documentation that states that? Everything I have read states that the ullage (or angel's share) is mostly alcohol with a small amount of water vapor. I've accepted that since alcohol is far more volatile than water (alcohol boils at 170). Maybe what I've read is in reference to a 50-50 combination of alcohol and water instead of wine which is 87% water and 13% alcohol.


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## robie (Jul 1, 2013)

Of course I can vouch for this from experience.


I would say to look for articles on the benefits of barrel aging, or maybe concentration effect in wine barrels. UC Davis should have something very scientific.


A reserve wine may stay in a wine barrel for 4 or more years.
If you think about it, even in a large 300+ liter barrel, if one lost only 750 ml of liquid each 4 to 6 weeks, if that lost liquid were mostly alcohol, since what is being substituted is only something like 12 to 15% alcohol, in the several years a reserve wine stays in the barrel, there wouldn't be much alcohol left in the barrel. Of course such a large barrel will loose much more than 750 ml in any 4 to 6 week period.


Now I really don't know the ratio of alcohol to water that is lost, but as an example:
Using a loss of 750ml as an example and a barreled wine that's 12% ABV, if that represents 750 ml of a combination of water and alcohol, but not the heavier materials in the wine; if a similar 12% alcohol 750ml wine is used to replace that loss, in the end you won't be loosing much in the way of alcohol.


Maybe the ratio of alcohol to water loss is larger, I don't really know. In that case, over several years the ABV would lower somewhat, but I doubt it would be significantly lower.


This is why a barrel can make such a huge difference in the body/mouth-feel of a wine - water (and some alcohol) continuously being replaced by wine.


I am sure there are others more knowledgeable of these things and they can chime in.


Hope this helps.


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## Deezil (Jul 1, 2013)

Geronimo said:


> Can you point me to the documentation that states that? Everything I have read states that the ullage (or angel's share) is mostly alcohol with a small amount of water vapor. I've accepted that since alcohol is far more volatile than water (alcohol boils at 170). Maybe what I've read is in reference to a 50-50 combination of alcohol and water instead of wine which is 87% water and 13% alcohol.



*How does air/oxygen gets into the barrel?*

"When a wine is stored in a barrel, some of it is lost due to evaporation. Generally the loss is about 2 to 5% in volume per year. Water and ethanol are smaller molecules that diffuse into wood as liquid and escape as vapor. The loss is influenced by the cellar temperature and humidity. Cellar humidity should be maintained about 65%. In a drier cellar more water is lost resulting in higher alcohol content in the wine. In humid cellars more alcohol is lost which decreases the ethanol content in the remaining wine. In both cases those substances not lost by evaporation will concentrate" 



INFLUENCE OF ENVIRONMENT - Wine evaporation from barrels


I cant seem to find the PDF's right now that quote particular percentages, from .edu websites.. But I know they're out there, I just cant think of the right search terms right now (too flippin hot!!!) but there's a bit of reading to get ya started


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## Geronimo (Jul 1, 2013)

Deezil said:


> *How does air/oxygen gets into the barrel?*
> 
> "When a wine is stored in a barrel, some of it is lost due to evaporation. Generally the loss is about 2 to 5% in volume per year. Water and ethanol are smaller molecules that diffuse into wood as liquid and escape as vapor. The loss is influenced by the cellar temperature and humidity. Cellar humidity should be maintained about 65%. In a drier cellar more water is lost resulting in higher alcohol content in the wine. In humid cellars more alcohol is lost which decreases the ethanol content in the remaining wine. In both cases those substances not lost by evaporation will concentrate"



This is what I've read elsewhere, except the loss was held below 2% per year. The cellar conditions you describe was the minimum relative humidity I've read about (they preferred 75% RH) at 59F. Warmer temps also caused the alcohol to evaporate at an increased rate. Their goal was to reduce evaporation and extend aging without oxidation. If concentration is your goal, then higher temps at low humidity will accelerate that. The alcohol evaporation wasn't affected by humidity, only temperature, so extended barrel aging at temps 70F+ will reduce the ABV significantly. Save it to say that most of us barrel aging for 6 months or less won't (or shouldn't) see much ullage.

My source is Wine Science: Principles, Practice, Perception By Ronald S. Jackson


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## WhitneyR (Jul 3, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Sure,
> 
> Natural cork, as well as synthetic corks are not a perfect hermetic seal. The very small amount of oxygen can/will bleed through to the wine. This happens very slowly with natural corks, but is much quicker with synthetic corks.



JohnT, closures definitely have an impact on wine's ability to age and the influence of oxygen exposure post-bottling. Natural corks allow the aging of wine through oxygen exposure, but being a natural product the development can be inconsistent from bottle to bottle. Plus, some pores might be more open than others and allow premature oxidation.

Not all synthetic corks are made the same. You're right, the "plastic plugs" or injection molded synthetic corks are more susceptible to oxidation and can result in a wine's shorter shelf life. Nomacorc alternative closures are made using a patented co-extrusion method which consists of a foam inner core and a flexible outer skin. The breathable foam core controls the amount of oxygen ingress into the wine based on the winemakers' needs and intentions. We've developed a premium portfolio of closures called the Select Series which is designed for long term wines as well as fresh, aromatic wines. You can learn more about our technology here: www.nomacorc.com. Cheers!


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## DaveL (Jul 4, 2013)

Geronimo said:


> Hi Robie,
> 
> Can you point me to the documentation that states that? Everything I have read states that the ullage (or angel's share) is mostly alcohol with a small amount of water vapor. I've accepted that since alcohol is far more volatile than water (alcohol boils at 170). Maybe what I've read is in reference to a 50-50 combination of alcohol and water instead of wine which is 87% water and 13% alcohol.



Geranimo you seem to be making the case against what your saying. Nobody said the Alc% is going up The Alc evaporates leaving the same amountof wine flavors, tannins etc in a lesser volume of liquid. The very definition of concentration.


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## DaveL (Jul 4, 2013)

But I will admit that all of you are much more knowledgable than I on the subject of all things wine. I really enjoy learning from these debates.


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## JohnT (Jul 5, 2013)

WhitneyR said:


> JohnT, closures definitely have an impact on wine's ability to age and the influence of oxygen exposure post-bottling. Natural corks allow the aging of wine through oxygen exposure, but being a natural product the development can be inconsistent from bottle to bottle. Plus, some pores might be more open than others and allow premature oxidation.
> 
> Not all synthetic corks are made the same. You're right, the "plastic plugs" or injection molded synthetic corks are more susceptible to oxidation and can result in a wine's shorter shelf life. Nomacorc alternative closures are made using a patented co-extrusion method which consists of a foam inner core and a flexible outer skin. The breathable foam core controls the amount of oxygen ingress into the wine based on the winemakers' needs and intentions. We've developed a premium portfolio of closures called the Select Series which is designed for long term wines as well as fresh, aromatic wines. You can learn more about our technology here: www.nomacorc.com. Cheers!


 

Thanks for the info. The issues I see here are that normacorc only keeps wine for 48 months and are (most likely) more expensive than natural corks. My interest is to keep some wines for 10 to 20 years, so I feel that natural cork is the way to go.


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## WhitneyR (Jul 8, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Thanks for the info. The issues I see here are that normacorc only keeps wine for 48 months and are (most likely) more expensive than natural corks. My interest is to keep some wines for 10 to 20 years, so I feel that natural cork is the way to go.



Not sure where exactly you got your information from re: the 48 month aging. I actually recently did a tasting with a '03 Cab. Sauv from Paso Robles closed with one of a first generation Nomacorc prototypes that is still showing beautifully! Our newest portfolio addition, the Select 100, is actually designed for wines intended to age for 8-10 years. Unfortunately, since we're only a 14-year old company, we haven't closed 20-year old wines yet, but as you mentioned this would be where natural cork might fit into play. In re: to cost, we're actually quite lower than high quality natural cork closures.

In any event, there's definitely a place for all types of closures in this 18.5 billion bottles per year market. Cheers!


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