# It Is Done



## Johnd (Apr 9, 2016)

Finally broke down and did it, and decided to go for the gusto. Just pitched yeast on my latest project, frozen grapes from Brehm, 2014 Zinfandel from Los Limones on Sonoma Mountain, purported to be one of their best reds in the last several years, they're fairly proud of it, and I'm hoping it lives up to its billing. Can't believe how many grapes are in a real wine must. 

A current promotion landed me $100 off of a white with my purchase, got a Pinot Gris bucket for shipping cost. Columbia Gorge AVA, dry farmed at 1200' on Underwood Mtn. 

Zinfandel - BRIX 29.5, Ph - 3.49, TA - 6.0. About a gallon of acidulated water brought it down to 24.5. Pitched BM 4x4 yeast about an hour ago. Plan to add MLB at 0 Brix, clear and bulk/barrel age when MLF has completed. 

Pinot Gris - BRIX - 24.5, Ph 3.16, TA - 6.4. Decided not to reduce the BRIX, it looks and tastes like it's going to handle the alcohol, if it doesn't, I'll blend it with a weaker Pinot Gris later in the process.


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## stickman (Apr 9, 2016)

Glad to hear you jumped in. I did the 2013 Cotturi Zin, what you have may be similar, it was very interesting, never had a Zin like that anywhere, probably is one of the best wines I've made. The finished wine aromatics are almost candy like, very difficult to describe; it actually is a true field blend as the vineyard is interplanted with Petite Sirah, Carignono, and Alicante. I'm sure you already know, add some yeast nutrients. Let us know how it goes.

In May, I'll be in Sonoma at the vineyard tour and winemaker's social with a few bottles of my wine.


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## ibglowin (Apr 9, 2016)

Welcome to the "dark side"........


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## Johnd (Apr 9, 2016)

stickman said:


> Glad to hear you jumped in. I did the 2013 Cotturi Zin, what you have may be similar, it was very interesting, never had a Zin like that anywhere, probably is one of the best wines I've made. The finished wine aromatics are almost candy like, very difficult to describe; it actually is a true field blend as the vineyard is interplanted with Petite Sirah, Carignono, and Alicante. I'm sure you already know, add some yeast nutrients. Let us know how it goes.
> 
> In May, I'll be in Sonoma at the vineyard tour and winemaker's social with a few bottles of my wine.



Sounds interesting stickman, glad to hear yours came out so well. This one is supposed to be a really big wine, so keep your fingers crossed for me. I'll be jumping on the nutrients as soon as the lag phase is over, maybe a smidge of DAP, but mostly Fermaid K, in two doses.


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## Johnd (Apr 9, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Welcome to the "dark side"........



Funny Mike, I've been running to the light for a while, just not jumping into it. Ultimately, I think, because of the wines I like, destiny was unavoidable. 

The Zin BRIX was a few points higher than I was expecting, but the calcs and adjustments were fairly easy, but my Ph dropped to 3.39 after the acidulated water addition. I'll have to deal with that I suppose before MLF.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 9, 2016)

It's on!!! 

Sounds like a powerful Zin.


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## ibglowin (Apr 9, 2016)

John,

I think we might like the same things in a wine. Are you on Cellar Tracker by chance? LOL

I have noticed that adding acidulated water at the correct amount of water and tartaric still drops the pH even though your adding acid (supposedly at the correct amount as what would be found naturally).

Remember that once you add a wine that has been through MLF to your barrel it should only be for wines from fresh grapes. You don't want to go back and forth with kits and grapes and MLF in the same barrel.

I get grapes from the Lodi AVA and most of them come in high brix like that and I always have to water them back.



Johnd said:


> Funny Mike, I've been running to the light for a while, just not jumping into it. Ultimately, I think, because of the wines I like, destiny was unavoidable.
> 
> The Zin BRIX was a few points higher than I was expecting, but the calcs and adjustments were fairly easy, but my Ph dropped to 3.39 after the acidulated water addition. I'll have to deal with that I suppose before MLF.


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## stickman (Apr 9, 2016)

Don't do anything to that PH yet, often times it goes up significantly by the end of the primary due to potassium from the skins. My Cab went from a PH of 3.36 to a 3.6 after primary, and then to a 3.82 after ML, I ended up dropping it back down to a 3.65 with tartaric acid during bulk aging. It's very good at this point.


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## Johnd (Apr 9, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> John,
> 
> I think we might like the same things in a wine. Are you on Cellar Tracker by chance? LOL
> 
> ...



Are you implying that I'm secretly stalking your wine trends.........well, maybe. Just kidding. I've had some exceptionally big tasty Zins in the last few years, two from the Calistoga area, huge like cabs, I'm a fan. 

I was disappointed that my Ph dropped post addition, my water was made meticulously to the same Ph as the must. I'm sure it's going to work out in the long run. 

And yes, I'll be devoting one of the barrels to MLF'd wines only. Eventually, probably 2 of the 3, plus the ones I don't know I'm going to acquire yet.


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## Johnd (Apr 9, 2016)

stickman said:


> Don't do anything to that PH yet, often times it goes up significantly by the end of the primary due to potassium from the skins. My Cab went from a PH of 3.36 to a 3.6 after primary, and then to a 3.82 after ML, I ended up dropping it back down to a 3.65 with tartaric acid during bulk aging. It's very good at this point.



Thanks stickman, I'm not going to mess with it, but I'm going to test and track the numbers as I move through fermentation and MLF. Hopefully, it'll ease up the scale a bit through the process.


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## Johnd (Apr 11, 2016)

BM 4x4 was starting to float the cap last nite, punched down before work this morning. Got home and the Zin was chugging along like a champ, cap 5" above the liquid, smells wonderful and the color has changed dramatically. VP41 and OptiML on the way for later. I'll take a SG reading later this evening and do a nutrient addition. I love grapes.


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## geek (Apr 11, 2016)

Are you using that whole vp41 packet for a 6 gallon frozen grape container or you actually bought more.


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## Johnd (Apr 11, 2016)

I've got two buckets, so I'll probably just split the batch between the two. It won't last til my Chileans get here.


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## geek (Apr 12, 2016)

Can't go wrong with VP41, a work horse.
That packet is good to treat for up 66gal of wine.


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## Johnd (Apr 12, 2016)

geek said:


> Can't go wrong with VP41, a work horse.
> That packet is good to treat for up 66gal of wine.



After researching and reading about the options, availability and quantities, VP41 seemed to be my best choice, even for the few extra bucks. I have the White Labs MLB, but I've just seen too much written about the troubles of completing mlf with it, as well as the very extended time it seems to take when it does finish.


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## Johnd (Apr 13, 2016)

Will do second dose of Fermaid k tonite, expecting to be ready to press the skins in the next couple of days, Friday or Saturday. 
Planning to press at around 2 BRIX, rack off of gross lees, and transfer to glass at that time. I'll rehydrate/inoculate with VP41 when it's in the carboy. I'll be at 74 degrees, and I'm assuming my Ph will be in range, anticipating an increase from pre fermentation. I won't use any SO2 til it's dry, keeping it under 50 ppm when it is time to add it. 
I'd like some comments about that plan if I'm missing something. I'm not worried about MLF, and have studied and read exhaustively in preparation, but it's my first, so lay it on me, I'm open to suggestions.


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## NorCal (Apr 13, 2016)

Just be cognizant on the limit of SO2 that your ML bacteria can tolerate. I do 50ppm SO2 at crush, then do not add any SO2 until MLF is complete. The wine is protected by the CO2 being generated by yeast and/or ML bacteria. I do MLF under airlock, crush open bin.


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## Johnd (Apr 13, 2016)

NorCal said:


> Just be cognizant on the limit of SO2 that your ML bacteria can tolerate. I do 50ppm SO2 at crush, then do not add any SO2 until MLF is complete. The wine is protected by the CO2 being generated by yeast and/or ML bacteria. I do MLF under airlock, crush open bin.



NorCal, the SO2 tolerance ( total SO2 ) of VP41 is 50-60 ppm. Hence, why I intended to stay under 50. So you're saying you just let it roll with no SO2? I've read that's an option. I'm assuming the reasoning, less stress, healthier mlb, better fermentation. Not questioning your process, but I'd like you to share your thoughts.


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## ibglowin (Apr 13, 2016)

Don't add any SO2 until MLF is complete. No reason at all.


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## NorCal (Apr 14, 2016)

I make my wine from fresh grapes and add SO2 at crush to kill off the native yeast, then not again until after mlf. The CO2 production will protect the wine and no need to potentially inhibit MLF.


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## Johnd (Apr 15, 2016)

Had a nice, early restaurant dinner last nite with the wife, went home and watched a show on DVR, punched down the Zin before bed and decided to take a quick SG. 3 and 5 Brix on the two buckets, full day ahead of what I anticipated. Well, grapes wait for no man, so I started pressing grapes at 10:30 last nite. All went well, cleaned up, showered and in bed for 1 AM, Zin happily bubbling along in a 6 gallon carboy and 1 gallon jug on its way to completing AF. It was late, so I didn't run any tests but will run the Ph and TA this weekend to see where it finished up.

On to MLF. Adjusted my schedule, will let it finish fermenting and rack off of the heavier lees a couple days later, add some MLB nutrients, rehydrate and pitch the culture.


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## dcbrown73 (Apr 15, 2016)

Must read up on MLF as my kit says nothing about it. 

...so much to learn.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 15, 2016)

dcbrown73 said:


> Must read up on MLF as my kit says nothing about it.
> 
> ...so much to learn.



MLF and kits should not be mentioned in the same sentence. 

MLF on wine from fresh fruit/juice only.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 15, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Had a nice, early restaurant dinner last nite with the wife, went home and watched a show on DVR, punched down the Zin before bed and decided to take a quick SG. 3 and 5 Brix on the two buckets, full day ahead of what I anticipated. Well, grapes wait for no man, so I started pressing grapes at 10:30 last nite. All went well, cleaned up, showered and in bed for 1 AM, Zin happily bubbling along in a 6 gallon carboy and 1 gallon jug on its way to completing AF. It was late, so I didn't run any tests but will run the Ph and TA this weekend to see where it finished up.
> 
> On to MLF. Adjusted my schedule, will let it finish fermenting and rack off of the heavier lees a couple days later, add some MLB nutrients, rehydrate and pitch the culture.



You probably could have waited, but I love your enthusiasm. 

I usually wait until pretty close to 0 Brix, then press, rack 24-48 hours later, and pitch MLB.


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## Johnd (Apr 15, 2016)

dcbrown73 said:


> Must read up on MLF as my kit says nothing about it.
> 
> ...so much to learn.



As Jim said above, MLF is not part of the kit regimen. I've not tested my kit acids (other than TA), but my understanding is that the acids in the kits are managed such that converting Malic acid to Lactic acid is not necessary. Additionally, if you use the sorbate that comes with your kit, and subsequently put Malolactic bacteria into the wine, the result is a major wine flaw, geranium taste and smell, it will ruin your wine. Happily plug along with the kits and don't fret MLF.

By all means, study the chemistry and the process, understand when and why you do MLF, ask questions and learn about it so that when you need to do it you will be ready. This is my first wine from grapes and, subsequently, my first MLF.


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## Johnd (Apr 15, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> You probably could have waited, but I love your enthusiasm.
> 
> I usually wait until pretty close to 0 Brix, then press, rack 24-48 hours later, and pitch MLB.



Ha, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I wasn't bummed out when is saw where the wine was, kind of looking forward to it. Problem was, work all day Friday, baseball practice after work and two of the boys from the team sleeping over Friday night with my son, two games Saturday morning. I wasn't going to get to it until Saturday afternoon and didn't want to wait that long. 

Hard work with my little press, 2 presses per bucket, but got it done pretty efficiently, nearly full carboy and 1 gallon jug. Fullness is a little close for comfort, but after AF and a racking, should be right on track..........

Two big bags of Zin skins for an upcoming project, which I'm still contemplating. I have the two Fourtitudes, but also just received a Meglioli Old Vine Zin that I preordered. I'm thinking one bag of skins for the Zin, and maybe splitting the other for the Fourtitudes.


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## Johnd (Apr 17, 2016)

Well, the Zin was down to .997 this evening and still bubbling pretty healthily, looks like the BM 4x4 is gonna get it done pretty nicely. 

Soon as it's done, I'll rack off of the lees and rehydrate the VP41 with ActiMalo, add the OptiMalo to the carboy and let MLF rip through the malic acid. 

Looking forward to getting the Zin into a barrel, the 3 of them will be ready for a new wine in 2, 3, and 4 weeks.


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## Johnd (Apr 20, 2016)

Racked Zin off of gross lees, added 6 g Opti Malo to the wine. 

MLB starter : 50 ml water, 5 g Acti ML, 2.5 g VP 41, goes into the carboy in 4 minutes.


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## Johnd (Apr 22, 2016)

Two days in, activity in the glass airlock, could still be a little AF not quite done, or MLF. Little bitty bubbles rising up, I'm betting on MLF. Just finished setting up a paper for a chromatography test, mostly for practice, but also to establish a baseline. Have to say, it's pretty darn easy to do this test, but results take a while to get, but I've got the time to wait anyway.


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## ceeaton (Apr 22, 2016)

Johnd said:


> ...but results take a while to get, ...



John, after I take my rolled paper out of the canister, I hang it outside in the garage for about an hour (to take the nasty edge off) then I have a place in the basement where I hang it in front of the vent that supplies heat/cool/ventilation for the basement. It has nice air movement around it and if I set that up the night before, the paper is totally dry by the next morning. Just a thought. Oh, and it is near a fish tank and they haven't died yet, or grown two heads or tails or anything like that, so I think it is safe.


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## Johnd (Apr 22, 2016)

@ceeaton, 
I've got a spot in my kitchen where I used to have a window (wine room casualty). Anyhow, the A/C supply diffuser now washes that wall with cool, dry air, that's the spot I'll be hanging the PC. It's already AC season down here, so plenty of air flow. Assuming it's ready before bed tonite, I'll hang it there before turning in. If not, it'll get hung in the morning and hopefully dried by the time I'm back from coaching baseball. 

Do you unroll yours before hanging to dry, or just hang it rolled up?


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## ceeaton (Apr 22, 2016)

I keep it as it was in the canister, rolled up. I have a clip I use at the top that has a wire loop in the top of it and hang it on a nail opposite the vent in the basement. I figure the less I mess with it the less chance I'll mess up the sheet. Once I sneezed on it and blue areas showed up where the results of the sneeze landed.


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## Johnd (Apr 23, 2016)

The results of my first baseline MLF chromatography, MLB pitched two days ago. Does the darkness of the spots indicate concentration? I assume it does, so the tartaric acid is of greater concentration than the reference solution (.3%), the malic acid slightly less than the reference solution, and the lactic acid considerably less? 

As I understand the process, in subsequent testing over time, if MLF is progressing productively, the lactic spot should become increasingly larger and brighter, while the malic progressively smaller and dimmer until it's completely gone, indicating all malic converted to lactic - MLF complete. On the right track here?


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## geek (Apr 23, 2016)

Yes pretty much.
You'll see the malic spot kind of fading away.


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## ceeaton (Apr 23, 2016)

@Johnd - Okay, I'm too stupid to link a post I had this picture in already, so I'll post it again. This was from last fall and shows, I think, MLF was nearly completed on my Dornfelder and Chardonel batch. I believe I let it hang out for another few weeks since someone here said that the test only picks up Malic acid above a certain threshold (I think it was @cmason1957 ). Notice the blue "sneeze marks". Hope this helps.


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## Johnd (Apr 23, 2016)

@ceeaton, thanks for the post. Question. I notice you also have the reds showing up in your two Dornfelders, but not the Chardonel. Do you have record of TA on the three?


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## ceeaton (Apr 23, 2016)

Johnd said:


> @ceeaton, thanks for the post. Question. I notice you also have the reds showing up in your two Dornfelders, but not the Chardonel. Do you have record of TA on the three?



Dornfelder - to start - pH 3.67, TA 8.2 g/L; after MLF pH 3.78 TA 5.8g/L (split batch, had room so tested both)
Chardonel - to start - pH 3.21, TA 7.3 g/L; after no F-ing clue, guess I could test since we have an open bottle in the fridge.

I will say the Chardonel is a very pleasant (and light) drinking wine, so acid is not an issue anymore.

Will edit this post if I get some resolve to get off my butt and do something. Tired from cooking and cleaning all day. Waiting for my apron to get out of the dryer. My tutu is in the next batch of laundry I'm doing.


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## Johnd (Apr 23, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Dornfelder - to start - pH 3.67, TA 8.2 g/L; after MLF pH 3.78 TA 5.8g/L (split batch, had room so tested both)
> Chardonel - to start - pH 3.21, TA 7.3 g/L; after no F-ing clue, guess I could test since we have an open bottle in the fridge.
> 
> I will say the Chardonel is a very pleasant (and light) drinking wine, so acid is not an issue anymore.
> ...


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## ceeaton (Apr 23, 2016)

Have to admit, never really noticed it. It was a starting number, an ending number, taken at two distinct points in time. All I know is the resulting wine was much more pleasing than when the process started.

What I have noticed is that I need a better way to keep records. Slips of paper with tape with writing on them in an envelope does not constitute a really good way to keep records.


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## Johnd (May 5, 2016)

MLF was started about two weeks ago, with lots of visible signs of activity, visible bubbles rising and action in the airlock about a bubble a minute. I've been stirring a couple times a week, but the activity has slowed a lot. I know that there are sometimes no visible signs, so I ran a chromo a few days ago, still have malic present.

The Zin is consistently in the 73-74 degree range, tested the Ph this morning, it's at 3.33. Should I consider another dose of nutrients or just turn the patience meter up to a higher level?


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## ibglowin (May 5, 2016)

If you added the correct amount of Malo nutrients you should just add another dose of extra "P". Usually a month is about the shortest time for complete MLF.


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## Johnd (May 9, 2016)

As the Zin is creeping through MLF, I couldn't resist a little taste test tonite, and wasn't disappointed. The fruit is huge, it's very bold and quite tannic, I'm really looking forward to getting it into a barrel hopefully some time this summer.


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2016)

Ran a chromo on the Zin, it's just not moving. Below is the chromo test, the Zin is the one in the middle. Scroll back up to the two previous posts, really no progress to speak of. 

Conditions as follows:
Temps constant at 75 F for four months, well in range
pH 3.31, above the tolerance of 3.1
ABV 14.2%, below 16% tolerance
SO2 at 0 ppm for four months, well below 50 ppm limit

VP41 rehydrated according to recommendations, with ActiML, OptiMalo used in wine per manuf. recommendations

VP41 rehydrated and pitched again, including all nutrients about a month ago. 

Wine still looks and smells great, so no ill effects of being KMS free, I'm just not feeling like pushing the envelope any further. Once I sulfite it, it can still be below the 50 ppm threshold, but in the wine room, temps at 60 not so lovely. 
Thoughts? Am I missing something?


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## ibglowin (Aug 6, 2016)

Try a different strain of MLB perhaps CH16. Gentle stir every few days seems to help keep thing moving along. In my experience a pH of less than 3.4 is hard to get malo going at times.


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## Tnuscan (Aug 6, 2016)

@Johnd To me it seems it has changed a little more than the last post. What is the TA of the Zin?


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Try a different strain of MLB perhaps CH16. Gentle stir every few days seems to help keep thing moving along. In my experience a pH of less than 3.4 is hard to get malo going at times.



Ohhhh, now you tell me!! LOL. I hate to raise the pH at this point in time, after working a high Brix must down to earth and getting the pH at 3.3 and TA at 6. Maybe I'll try the CH 16. What's the SO2 tolerance? Couldn't find it on the data sheet, recommends pH 3.4??


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> @Johnd To me it seems it has changed a little more than the last post. What is the TA of the Zin?



TA on the Zin is 6.0, right in the wheelhouse.


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## geek (Aug 6, 2016)

I learned that I also like to pitch mlb with a pH a bit higher.
My cheapo Wyeast 4007 completed in 2 months but I raised the pH to the 3.4x range. And this mlb is very picky.


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2016)

geek said:


> I learned that I also like to pitch mlb with a pH a bit higher.
> My cheapo Wyeast 4007 completed in 2 months but I raised the pH to the 3.4x range. And this mlb is very picky.



Well, that's two votes for pH 3.4+. I'm no fool, advice I'll use going forward. As I was working my TA up to 6.5 and monitoring the pH, I was using the VP 41 pH of 3.1+ as my danger line. I stopped at 6.0 and 3.3 thinking I was solidly in the zone of acceptability. It's my first grape wine, think I'm going to SO2 it in the carboy, 35 ppm, til my next barrel is free. Bump up the pH, barrel it, and pitch another MLB in the barrel. This wine is getting expensive!


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## ibglowin (Aug 6, 2016)

LOL they all are in some way but at least you can say its all YOURS!



Johnd said:


> This wine is getting expensive!


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## Tnuscan (Aug 6, 2016)

Johnd said:


> TA on the Zin is 6.0, right in the wheelhouse.



At 3.3 pH and 6.0 TA, I don't feel these levels are that bad. I thought your TA might be really high but it isn't. I wouldn't hesitate to start at those levels.


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## Johnd (Aug 6, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> At 3.3 pH and 6.0 TA, I don't feel these levels are that bad. I thought your TA might be really high but it isn't. I wouldn't hesitate to start at those levels.



Yup, me too. Started with a pretty high Brix, 28 or 29, TA 5ish. Had to use acidulated water to get the Brix down, TA up, and pH down. Was pretty proud of my efforts.


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## stickman (Aug 7, 2016)

John, I hope everything works out in the end. This is a good example of how tricky and variable winemaking can be. It is difficult to get good measurements on recently thawed frozen fruit. I agree with Mike on the PH being a bit low, also the alcohol content may be slightly higher than you think, and those two variables together can exaggerate each other. I've had good ML results over the years with CH16, but my PH has always been higher.


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## Johnd (Aug 7, 2016)

stickman said:


> John, I hope everything works out in the end. This is a good example of how tricky and variable winemaking can be. It is difficult to get good measurements on recently thawed frozen fruit. I agree with Mike on the PH being a bit low, also the alcohol content may be slightly higher than you think, and those two variables together can exaggerate each other. I've had good ML results over the years with CH16, but my PH has always been higher.



No doubt, it's not a connect the dots puzzle. I'm pretty confident in my early readings of sugar content, confirmed with both a refractometer and hydrometer on 75 F must two days in a row. pH done over two days samples as well, with only slight change post fermentation and over the last few months. All other variables being in line, points to your observation of lowish pH, which I'll address in subsequent months.


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## Tnuscan (Aug 7, 2016)

Removed my last post as I had thought everyone had used the same MLB. After re-reading I discovered 2 people had not. Who knows maybe it can be a bad year.


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## Johnd (Aug 7, 2016)

Just got finished doing the deed. Sulfited the Zinfandel up to 35 ppm free SO2, and I feel better even though MLF isn't finished yet. I don't view this as a failure, I'm just not finished yet......


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## TimK (Aug 12, 2016)

I'm late to the party and just read through the posts. Lots of great info. Sounds like the patience had ran out. I hear ya. We have been rolling the dice on our Malbec batch with the MLF. It's been about 16 weeks into MLF and it's been slow. We have dropped bacteria twice. First was whitelabs WLP675. Then later with Enoferm. Seemed to pick up after the second bacteria add but still creeping along. Doing a chromo test this weekend and saying a prayer that it is ready. (Might give up and SO2 regardless). I would like to hear how things turn out since you believed the the MLF wasn't finished before the SO2 add. Wonder if any ill effect. Hope not. Good luck.


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## Johnd (Aug 12, 2016)

TimK said:


> I'm late to the party and just read through the posts. Lots of great info. Sounds like the patience had ran out. I hear ya. We have been rolling the dice on our Malbec batch with the MLF. It's been about 16 weeks into MLF and it's been slow. We have dropped bacteria twice. First was whitelabs WLP675. Then later with Enoferm. Seemed to pick up after the second bacteria add but still creeping along. Doing a chromo test this weekend and saying a prayer that it is ready. (Might give up and SO2 regardless). I would like to hear how things turn out since you believed the the MLF wasn't finished before the SO2 add. Wonder if any ill effect. Hope not. Good luck.



Tim:

It's sulfited and still resting comfortably at 75F in glass, and tastes great. When my next barrel is free, I'll pull it out of the refrigerated cellar, adjust the pH up on the Zin, and barrel it with some new MLB. Time will tell the tale.


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## Johnd (Aug 13, 2016)

After bottling two wines this morning, decided to work on the Zin pH a bit. Racked it off of the fine lees into a new carboy, very clear, had a taste, it's a little rough around the edges, but the fruit is really big, and the tannins Are good for me. Pretty decent mouthfeel and a surprisingly long finish. 

Calibrated the meter and checked the starting pH at 3.31. 1 gram per liter of potassium bicarbonate should raise the pH by .1, which would put me at 3.41, pretty easy, right? As always, small increments, so I started with only 1/2 of the dose, so 11.5 g. Thiefed a bit into a beaker and dosed it, mixed it really well (it turns almost black), and added it back into the carboy, stirred really well and put the airlock back on for an hour. 

Stirred well an hour later and checked the pH, 3.46!! So it went up .15 with half the dose, but that's why we go slow. Happy with the outcome of the adjustment, and the MLF barrel will be free in a couple of weeks.


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## geek (Aug 13, 2016)

Nice John [emoji106]


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 13, 2016)

Don't you need to cold stabilize after the pot bicarb?


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## Johnd (Aug 13, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Don't you need to cold stabilize after the pot bicarb?



Eventually, but I'd like another shot at completing MLF now that I've got the pH up a bit. If I do CS now, since my pH is below 3.6, the pH will drop and I'll be back in the same boat(boy). 

It's a bit complicated, but as I understand my situation, my pot bicarbonate has reduced the tartaric acid, thus lowering the TA and raising the pH. You can only use pot bicarbonate to raise pH until you've neutralized all of your tartaric acid, as it only works on tartaric acid. Sod bicarbonate (double salt method) reduces tartaric and malic in similar proportions, but I didn't elect to do that since my adjustment was relatively minor. 

So after MLF, and then CS, then I suspect my TA will be quite low, as I've used up tartaric with the pot bicarbonate and changed malic to the less powerful lactic. I'll probably then have to boost the TA and lower pH back to a safer range. That's worst case scenario, but possible. Did I miss anything? Clear as mud?


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## ceeaton (Aug 13, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Eventually, but I'd like another shot at completing MLF now that I've got the pH up a bit. If I do CS now, since my pH is below 3.6, the pH will drop and I'll be back in the same boat(boy).
> 
> It's a bit complicated, but as I understand my situation, my pot bicarbonate has reduced the tartaric acid, thus lowering the TA and raising the pH. You can only use pot bicarbonate to raise pH until you've neutralized all of your tartaric acid, as it only works on tartaric acid. Sod bicarbonate (double salt method) reduces tartaric and malic in similar proportions, but I didn't elect to do that since my adjustment was relatively minor.
> 
> So after MLF, and then CS, then I suspect my TA will be quite low, as I've used up tartaric with the pot bicarbonate and changed malic to the less powerful lactic. I'll probably then have to boost the TA and lower pH back to a safer range. That's worst case scenario, but possible. Did I miss anything? Clear as mud?



Your explanation makes sense to me, and follows what I've learned on this site. Haven't done what you are doing so can't say if it will work, but please keep us up to date as to your steps and what the results are. This is a great thread to learn from, thanks John!


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## Johnd (Aug 13, 2016)

@ceeaton , glad you find it interesting. You know, I'm starting to wonder if I got some defective MLB, my Chileans aren't doing crap, the cab is at 3.5 pH, shouldn't be an issue. 

Been racking my brain, both VP41's ordered and delivered in the hot months, wonder if the heat could have killed it before I even pitched it. I have two vials of White Labs liquid MLB that was delivered packed with dry ice. Might dump it in for laughs.....


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## ceeaton (Aug 14, 2016)

Probably worth a try. Don't know how heat sensitive they are but my package of CH35 says store below 18*C, which converts to 64.4*F, so you may be onto something there. I think I ordered mine back in April, so it depended on the day it was delivered as to the outdoor temperature.

Mine seems to have done most of the job now that I am regularly stirring it, so I'm blaming myself for my issues this summer.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 14, 2016)

Johnd said:


> @ceeaton , glad you find it interesting. You know, I'm starting to wonder if I got some defective MLB, my Chileans aren't doing crap, the cab is at 3.5 pH, shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> Been racking my brain, both VP41's ordered and delivered in the hot months, wonder if the heat could have killed it before I even pitched it. I have two vials of White Labs liquid MLB that was delivered packed with dry ice. Might dump it in for laughs.....



My Enoferm Beta didn't do squat either - on 4 different wines, all with good pH. I'm pitching some VP41 today.


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## Johnd (Aug 14, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> My Enoferm Beta didn't do squat either - on 4 different wines, all with good pH. I'm pitching some VP41 today.



I hope it does the trick for you. I really suspect that my VP41 was exposed to high temps in shipping, those dark brown trucks get roasty hot down here in the summer. ever try WLP 675?


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## geek (Aug 14, 2016)

Johnd said:


> I hope it does the trick for you. I really suspect that my VP41 was exposed to high temps in shipping, those dark brown trucks get roasty hot down here in the summer. ever try WLP 675?




Reviews are not good on this site, so a search and see but maybe that strain is very picky too and the wine needs to have all the right conditions.
I did try one way back when I didn't check any numbers in the wine and didn't do the job for me, but maybe the wine back then was out of balance, who knows.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 14, 2016)

Johnd said:


> I hope it does the trick for you. I really suspect that my VP41 was exposed to high temps in shipping, those dark brown trucks get roasty hot down here in the summer. ever try WLP 675?



Never have.


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## stickman (Aug 14, 2016)

Here is the shelf life info. They seem to indicate that the culture can take some heat, though 86F isn't much of a test. Even then, they back pedal and say excursions should be less than 48 hours. I'm sure not absolutely necessary, but it looks like the expectation is to be delivered overnight with an ice pack during hot months.


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## Johnd (Aug 14, 2016)

stickman said:


> Here is the shelf life info. They seem to indicate that the culture can take some heat, though 86F isn't much of a test. Even then, they back pedal and say excursions should be less than 48 hours. I'm sure not absolutely necessary, but it looks like the expectation is to be delivered overnight with an ice pack during hot months.



Good info, thanks for sharing it, I dug a bit but never saw that info. Sadly, as you noted, 86F is 10 degrees below my summer highs. In the back of a brown truck in summer, even higher. 

Since I'll need some before fall, I'll have them ship overnight with an ice pack, probably go ahead and get a bunch of packages since I'll already be paying for the shipping.


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## Johny99 (Aug 15, 2016)

stickman said:


> Here is the shelf life info. They seem to indicate that the culture can take some heat, though 86F isn't much of a test. Even then, they back pedal and say excursions should be less than 48 hours. I'm sure not absolutely necessary, but it looks like the expectation is to be delivered overnight with an ice pack during hot months.



Storage temperature is interesting, "0C/-18F". Hopefully, they mean the reverse. I keep mine in the fridge at ~40F.


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## stickman (Aug 15, 2016)

Your correct, it should be -18C or 0F for the low end of storage temperature.


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## ceeaton (Aug 21, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Good info, thanks for sharing it, I dug a bit but never saw that info. Sadly, as you noted, 86F is 10 degrees below my summer highs. In the back of a brown truck in summer, even higher.
> 
> Since I'll need some before fall, I'll have them ship overnight with an ice pack, probably go ahead and get a bunch of packages since I'll already be paying for the shipping.



Just for another angle, I ordered supplies for my Fall wines on Thursday night, MoreWinemaking.com uses FedEx Home delivery, which gets to me the next day. So I figured I'd be fine, since I usually get deliveries before Noon. Well, the package went to the wrong terminal, so it looks like I won't get it until Monday, so I emailed MoreWinemaking.com and here is the response I got:
-----

Hello Craig,

Thank you for emailing in your concerns. We're sorry that you didn't receive your order yesterday, however your yeast and bacteria are fine. Dry Malolactic Bacteria and Dry Wine Yeast require cold temperatures for long term storage. Exposing these to warmer temperatures for 5 days to even two weeks will not damage the yeast and bacteria. 

Thank You,
Graciela Hernandez

Customer Service Representative
MoreFlavor, Inc
1-800-600-0033

On Sun, Aug 21 at 10:34 AM , Craig Eaton <[email protected]> wrote:
My order didn't arrive yesterday as scheduled. It is now sitting on a Fed Ex truck somewhere getting hot. Hopefully the yeast and MLB will be okay. I'm sad.


Your MoreWine! invoice number 4226680 has shipped.
Your tracking number(s):
783867525108 
Please tell us what you think of your support experience.

-----

So they seem to think it is fine getting warm for up to two weeks. Unlike UPS'es big brown trucks, at least the Fed Ex ones are white!


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## Johnd (Aug 21, 2016)

Me wonders if they are relying on the data we read earlier in where it was exposed to "high" temps of 86F.


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## ceeaton (Aug 22, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Me wonders if they are relying on the data we read earlier in where it was exposed to "high" temps of 86F.



Well, this should be a good test. It sat on the truck from about 6 pm Friday until this morning. Came right after I left for work (have to put youngest on bus around 8:15 am), so it is now sitting in the sun on my front porch for another hour or so. Even though it was a beautiful morning, that box will warm up nicely in the sun. It won't be brought inside until my older three get back from school around 2:30 pm.

Please feel free to remind me this fall when I'm complaining about a long MLF is taking... We'll see how the yeast held up to being warmed up a bit in the next month or so when I pitch it.


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## Johnd (Aug 22, 2016)

@ceeaton I hope it all works out for you. I'm just hoping that my slight raise in pH on the Zin does the trick there, and that the Chileans are making progress, it's only been a few weeks for them. Will probably do a chromo in a few weeks to see where they are.


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## Johnd (Sep 7, 2016)

So this is my latest chromo, T, M, L standards left, 4 wines to the right. First wine from the left is the Zin I've been battling, lowish pH and sulfited just a tad, little to no progress there. Next over is the Chilean Cab, the highest pH of my wines, and showing the best progress. Ch. Malbec all of the way to the right, tad more progress than the Zin, similarly lowish pH, The Cab/Malbec blend has made some progress. There's a lesson here for me. 

Zin pH= 3.3 post ferm, and at both MLB pitchings, poor MLF progress

Malbec pH= 3.36 post ferm, poor MLF progress

Cab pH= 3.48 post ferm, best progress

Cab / Malbec blend 75/25 pH=3.42, midrange progress

VP41 rehydrated with ActiML, and fed with OptiML per recommendations. 

As @ibglowin posted his experience earlier, despite the reportedly lower pH tolerance of VP41, noticeably better results were observed in my wines with pH's in the 3.4+ range. One little test does not a fact make, but I'm going with it into the future. 

Looks like my cab will be barrelled before the Zin. At the time I sulfited the Zin (cuz I got scared after 4 months), the pH was adjusted up from 3.3 to 3.46, next time around, I'm betting all goes well.


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## Johnd (Apr 1, 2017)

Haven't updated this post in a while, but I tasted the Zin yesterday, which has been barrelled for nearly 5 months. I was very disappointed with the level of oak, my barrel seems to be trending to neutral, so I dropped in a M+ French oak wine stix. 

The wine itself was pretty decent, despite my decision not to finish MLF. pH is right at 3.5, an while it's still a tad tart at first sip, the tartness has improved a great deal. This is a really fruity wine, almost candy like aroma, I don't know how to describe it, but it's a good flavor. Medium mouth feel, bout the same on finish, and the tannins are less harsh now and pleasant. In just needs some oak. I'll let it get to 6 months in the barrel and move it to glass, oak and adjust as needed.


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## stickman (Apr 1, 2017)

Very interesting John, I also described it similar in post #2 of this thread, a candy like aromatic that is complex at the same time, and is difficult to describe. My vintage was a 2013, made 20 gallons and there isn't much left, maybe three 750ml bottles and three magnums, it's been very good.


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## Johnd (Apr 1, 2017)

stickman said:


> Very interesting John, I also described it similar in post #2 of this thread, a candy like aromatic that is complex at the same time, and is difficult to describe. My vintage was a 2013, made 20 gallons and there isn't much left, maybe three 750ml bottles and three magnums, it's been very good.



Just went back and read it, interesting taste, but it's a good taste, very floral, maybe roses, but I like it. Mine's still a babe in the woods. Don't know if you caught it or not, but although I stated this wine about a year ago, the frozen must is actually 2014 vintage. I'll just keep nudging it along until I feel it's ready to bottle, remind me and I'll send you some to compare to yours.


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## Johnd (Apr 11, 2018)

This 2014 Zinfandel, which i thawed and made in 2016, just made two years old. We aerated and decanted a bottle last night to try, and it was really solid, with the red fruit you expect from a zin, pretty smooth with just a hint of oak showing through. It's got just a little acid zip left to it, which is expected to continue to mellow, easily a wine to be consumed daily or quaffed with a nice meal. Feeling pretty stinkin good about my first effort from frozen must, and still have 23 bottles to go!!


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