# How sturdy does a 20' trellis need to be?



## KaylaWildflower (May 22, 2014)

Hi, I'm having a 20' long single-wire high-cordon trellis built for muscadine grapes in my North Florida back yard. Our soil is mostly sandy. The question is, for just a 20' long trellis, do I need a bracing system? My research indicates the H-brace is strongest, but it adds at least 6' to each end, creating a space problem.







Then again, the earth anchor or tie back post add maybe as much space, AND create a trip hazard.






An ag extension agent says, "I do not think major braces and tighteners will be necessary," and recommends this design. The instructions do not even mention bracing, just say to set the end posts angled slightly away from each other.






What do people think?


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## Larryh86GT (May 22, 2014)

Mine are about 20" long and this is how I have braced them without taking up more space.
Larry


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## Fog (May 22, 2014)

I just set up a 30' run in my backyard and I built it like the ag Agent suggested. Only difference is I used Cedar posts because it looks nicer in my yard.


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## KaylaWildflower (May 22, 2014)

Ah, so both of those put together comprise your whole grape trellis? So you have one post in the middle and two end posts? I was wondering if there was any way to put the braces WITHIN the 20'. I found this picture






but found no further instructions anywhere on the internet so figured it must not be a good idea. How long have you had your grape trellis? Is it new? How are those brace pieces secured into the ground? Thanks!


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## KaylaWildflower (May 22, 2014)

*Interior Braces - I'd love that!*

Ah, so both of those put together comprise your whole grape trellis? So you have one post in the middle and two end posts? I was wondering if there was any way to put the braces WITHIN the 20'. I found this picture






but found no further instructions anywhere on the internet so figured it must not be a good idea. How long have you had your grape trellis? Is it new? How are those brace pieces secured into the ground? Thanks!


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## TicinoVintner (May 22, 2014)

My trellis system was a mess when I first took over and it still is. We have about 1 to 1.5 meters of humus on top of granite slab. It seems the more we try to tighten it the looser it gets. I've even tried to fill some in with concrete and it still comes loose. A hand auger won't break through and it's too steep for machinery. One post wedged diagonal to the end post works the best for us but still not perfect. So I have mostly really loose cables is my point and the vines still grow up to the top and they stay there and it's never been a problem other than it annoys me to see loose cables. Tightness is mostly overrated IMHO. It doesnt need to stop a car. Snug or just tight enough would just fine. Check out this ghetto trellis. 




Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Larryh86GT (May 22, 2014)

KaylaWildflower said:


> Ah, so both of those put together comprise your whole grape trellis? So you have one post in the middle and two end posts? I was wondering if there was any way to put the braces WITHIN the 20'. I found this picture
> but found no further instructions anywhere on the internet so figured it must not be a good idea. How long have you had your grape trellis? Is it new? How are those brace pieces secured into the ground? Thanks!


 
Mine are just 2 end posts with the inside braces pushing outward. I have a metal stake driven into the ground that the metal brace is up against and a piece of pressure treated 2 x 4 for the brace to rest on so it does not sink into the ground. The first trellis is 4 years old, the second trellis with the green braces is 2 years old.


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## KaylaWildflower (May 22, 2014)

Larryh86GT said:


> Mine are just 2 end posts with the inside braces pushing outward. I have a metal stake driven into the ground that the metal brace is up against and a piece of pressure treated 2 x 4 for the brace to rest on so it does not sink into the ground. The first trellis is 4 years old, the second trellis with the green braces is 2 years old.



That sounds like a good system. I'm impressed, because I've scoured every corner of the internet, and I know you didn't find it here! Interior braces would be the perfect solution for me. Have they passed the test with heavy loads? And how long are the trellises? They look short, like mine will be. Thanks.


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## peaches9324 (May 23, 2014)

I wouldn't put braces on a 20 foot run I would just put the wood post deeper in the ground and I would (maybe) add another cedar post in the middle but a foot deeper (I don't have any experience with sandy soil or muscadine ) good luck!
and welcome to the greatest forum ever


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## Taurii (May 23, 2014)

I just built my trellis system about three weeks ago and is is very similar the the picture from the extension agent. I have built 2 trelis' 24 feet long each. I used 8' long 4x4's that I sunk into the ground 2 1/2' deep. I also used concrete on them. Then I used 2 8' t-posts for each 24' trellis. These t-posts are also 2 1/2' in the ground. The t-posts are spaced 8' apart just to give added stability.


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## KaylaWildflower (May 23, 2014)

*Concrete, T-posts and anchor braces*



Taurii said:


> I used 8' long 4x4's that I sunk into the ground 2 1/2' deep. I also used concrete on them. Then I used 2 8' t-posts for each 24' trellis. These t-posts are also 2 1/2' in the ground. The t-posts are spaced 8' apart just to give added stability.



I am averse to concrete because I've seen too many posts out of the ground with concrete on the bottom. The t-posts are an idea, but I think right now I'm leaning toward an anchor brace. I'm hoping if I lean the end posts out, say 30 degrees, I can attach them to an anchor brace almost perpendicularly between the ground and the top of the end brace. There seems to be dispute about whether the anchor brace needs to be placed way back far away from the end post or not though. Geez, the questions never end.


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## KaylaWildflower (May 23, 2014)

*Glad to be here*



peaches9324 said:


> welcome to the greatest forum ever


Thanks! And I love your endquote!


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## toddrod (Jun 5, 2014)

I have experience with this. Muscadines can, and do , produce alot of heavy fruit when the vines are mature and pruned correctly. A 20' straight run wire without addition bracing WILL pull the end post in and cause the wire to drop. The best way for your 20ft trellis is the end post with the inside bracing and a wire support post at the middle (10ft). I have 2.5 inch metal pipe T post (48 inches across) and set 10 ft apart and concreted in the ground 2.5ft. With my first setup I ran wire for the vines to grow on. The weight of the grapes, and heavy winds, pulled the end post in. Do not underestimate the weight of the grapes. I have 2 Isons with 20ft of vines on each and picked 400lbs of grapes last year on just these 2 vines.


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## garymc (Jun 6, 2014)

What he said ^. 
Any time you're talking about trellises for muscadine just remember. It's like saying you need to fence in a pasture for your herd. If you have a herd of buffalo, you need a different fence!


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