# Yeast selection & results



## Ajmassa (Apr 17, 2018)

What are your preferred yeast strains and how have the results been for you?

Would be great to read actual winemaker’s opinions of different yeast since manufacturer writeups make em all sound perfect. 
I’m straying from my ‘go-to’ RC212 and going with d-80/d-254 combo on Malbec this spring to blend back later. But I’m basing this off of the makers recommendation. 
I’m interested to hear about them all. The non h2s Renaissance yeasts, the acid removing strains, strains very nutrient needy etc.. All insight is helpful. The good, the bad, and the ugly.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 17, 2018)

I would have thought that there is no such thing as a "preferred yeast strain" except in the context of the wine or mead or beer one is making or brewing. For example, for some session meads I love Belle Saison, for others I choose D47. For my ciders I go to 71B. Horses for courses...


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## pgentile (Apr 17, 2018)

To date I have only used ec-1118, rc-212 and bm4x4 on my grape batches. I used the bm4x4 on my latest batch and so far very good. I like rc-212 better than ec-1118. 

White QA23 and d47.

On early fermenting experiments and fruit wines used champagne yeast, Montrachet, cuvee something and a few others.

What made you select d-80 and d-254, have you used either before?


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## Ajmassa (Apr 17, 2018)

BernardSmith said:


> I would have thought that there is no such thing as a "preferred yeast strain" except in the context of the wine or mead or beer one is making or brewing. For example, for some session meads I love Belle Saison, for others I choose D47. For my ciders I go to 71B. Horses for courses...



I just mean for whatever you happen to be making are there strains you prefer over others. Any notable anecdotes at all? 
I’m assuming there’s a reason why you say you “love” belle saison when the situation calls for it. 



pgentile said:


> What made you select d-80 and d-254, have you used either before?


 
I heard about the idea of running 2 ferments of the same grapes and blending later for max complexity. So when looking into yeast for Malbec Lallemand simply suggested pairing with each other (or d21 too) in the description.


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## pgentile (Apr 17, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I heard about the idea of running 2 ferments in same grapes and blending later for max complexity. Some when looking into yeast for Malbec the manufacturer simply suggested pairing with each other for Malbec in the description.



I like it, that's what I figured. Might try that one of these ferments. My problem would probably be cross-contaminating during primary, forgetting and then using the same punch down tool on each.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 17, 2018)

There’s actually some great info within this forum- but you really gotta go digging to find it. Like this post on D-80 back in 2012


ibglowin said:


> Thats a good one especially when blended with D254, supposedly a super winning combo. It has drawbacks though in which it magnifies problems with poor and or unripened fruit so you have to choose it wisely after studying your grapes a bit. Good to hear you had good results with it!



Something like @ibglowin’s post above is incredibly helpful and I otherwise would have never known that. I thought it would be helpful to have a thread containing info or personal experience on specific yeasts that isn’t exactly listed within the marketing descriptions.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm also going to use D80 and 254. Like you I've recently done some research on yeast for the spring and there are many, many recommendation for D80 and 254 online. Great thread though, can't wait to see what others come up with.


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## pgentile (Apr 17, 2018)

I see both d80 and 254 are medium in nitrogen needs, opposed to rc212 and bm4x4 which are high.


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## JohnT (Apr 18, 2018)

D47 for whites, RC212 for reds.


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## Johnd (Apr 18, 2018)

I used CY3079 for a Chardonnay that I did last spring, fermented at 55F for a month, MLF's and oaked it lightly. It's by far the Chard I've ever done, some folks who taste it say it's the best they've ever tasted.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 18, 2018)

I know RC212 is sometimes said to be prone to h2s and nutrient needy. My experiences have been 100% positive. But then again I’m not sure I know what h2s smells like. I’ve smelled wine ferments my whole life. To me a healthy ferment smells something heavenly for the first half. And the 2nd half that same smell takes on a slightly bitter/acidic odor (but still pleasant and not so bitter that it’s concerning) and then decreases as ferment slows.
*but maybe I’m wrong after all and this is not a healthy ferment.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 18, 2018)

I don't have any side-by-side comparisons, so it is tough to say. I have had excellent results with D254 (for Bordeaux-ish varieties), and very good results with BM45 (for fat/jammy varieties) and D47 (for whites).


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## Ajmassa (Apr 18, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I don't have any side-by-side comparisons, so it is tough to say. I have had excellent results with D254 (for Bordeaux-ish varieties), and very good results with BM45 (for fat/jammy varieties) and D47 (for whites).



Last fall I looked into bm-45 and BDX. But was advised towards 4x4 since the others can require some extra TLC and I’m not very comfortable straying from nutrient directions or knowing when to call an audible. I really only have experience with 212, 4x4, and 1118. I’ve used others but it was before I took it seriously and wasn’t measuring anything. 
And I’m very interested in renaissance yeast based on @4score and @norcal’s high praise. I bought andante from LodiLabs but I’ve yet to use it.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 18, 2018)

Found this link from Scott Labs. It addresses a yeasts compatibility with MLF. Alot of the strains I've not heard of but maybe only come in large quantities. I know 71B is said to be used in white wines but I've used in reds as well with no off flavors. In fact it was recommended by a commercial winemaker. It looks like the D254 is very compatible.

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/215/Yeast_MLFCompatibility_Dec10.pdf


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## Ajmassa (Apr 18, 2018)

I know of 71B to be used for its acid reducing abilities. 20-30% of malic acid. But the Renaissance yeast Andante does this as well. Kinda does it all. High abv high temp tolerant. Emits Low so2. NO h2s. And 30% malic removal. 
I also heard an idea in “The Inside Winemaking Podcast” that made sense (Jim Duane a Napa winemaker. His podcasts are awesome). For full red wines that get barrel aged and then another year in the bottle- yeast doesn’t really matter. After aging, anything added to the profile from the yeast fades to become unnoticeable. So if planning to barrel age and not drink until 2.5-3yrs then the main yeast selection concerns would be all factors to finish dry and healthy. I though this was an interesting opinion.


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## winojoe (Apr 19, 2018)

I have been using the following:
BIG REDS: Lalvin CLOS
WHITES: Lalvin R2

D254 ...I have tried this, but liked the results of CLOS better (maybe just personal taste)
BM4x4 ...going to try this in the very near future for some chilean wine


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## mainshipfred (Apr 19, 2018)

The Avante sounds interesting but I can't find where to but 8 gram packages everything I see is 500 grams. Do you know of a source?


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## Ajmassa (Apr 19, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> The Avante sounds interesting but I can't find where to but 8 gram packages everything I see is 500 grams. Do you know of a source?



LodiLabs https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/products/andante-yeast

Last August and September Lodi Labs was running a sale and every single yeast they sold was only $1. I loaded up. They come in 8g packs btw.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 19, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> LodiLabs https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/products/andante-yeast
> 
> Last August and September Lodi Labs was running a sale and every single yeast they sold was only $1. I loaded up. They come in 8g packs btw.



Thanks, never heard of them before. Nice selection.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 19, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks, never heard of them before. Nice selection.



They also have tannin, malo, and nutrient selections that are impressive. I didn’t realize finishing tannin was used commercially until I saw the crazy large amounts they offer.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 19, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> They also have tannin, malo, and nutrient selections that are impressive. I didn’t realize finishing tannin was used commercially until I saw the crazy large amounts they offer.



I'm not sure if everyone does but when I took my wine class they addressed adding tannins commercially. I guess you have to deal with what you are dealt from the grapes.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 19, 2018)

I always just viewed it as a home winemaking cheat sorta. It was until recently that I found out it was an accepted practice commercially too.


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## Vinobeau (Apr 22, 2018)

I once made a large batch of Cranberry wine, using three different yeasts, with identical batches of must. After about 9 months, I taste tested them and there actually was a difference! A very slight difference, possibly after ruining my taste buds with years of drinking Scotch, I determined that it was moot, and blended them all together. I wish that someone could actually and factually differences in yeasts upon finished wines. No one compares apples & apples, its all fluff. And much is propagated by the yeast manufacturers. They want to sell more kinds of yeast. Much like oil filters - 95% of all cars could use the same oil filter!


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## Ajmassa (May 17, 2018)

Just an update on my fermentation results using both D-254 and D-80. I wasn’t expecting too much of a difference just yet but they each had their own unique characteristics already. 
I inoculated the same way at the same time and dosed same nutrients in the same way. The D-80 showed nice activity after only 12 hours while 254 lagged behind. A few days in 80 was well ahead of the 254. 
About halfway through the 80 slowed down and 254 picked up bigtime. Temps were the same throughout. At room temp the peak temp of the wine was about 73°. 
254 then surpassed and was under 1.000 while the 80 took another day and a half. My official results :
D-254. Slow starter but finished strong and fast
D-80 fast starter with a long slow steady finish. Fermenting a day earlier and a day longer. 
Both took it down way dry without any h2s at all. 

I think the difference in the ferments should definitely complement each other well. There were also differences in the aromas during the ferment.


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## mainshipfred (May 17, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Just an update on my fermentation results using both D-254 and D-80. I wasn’t expecting too much of a difference just yet but they each had their own unique characteristics already.
> I inoculated the same way at the same time and dosed same nutrients in the same way. The D-80 showed nice activity after only 12 hours while 254 lagged behind. A few days in 80 was well ahead of the 254.
> About halfway through the 80 slowed down and 254 picked up bigtime. Temps were the same throughout. At room temp the peak temp of the wine was about 73°.
> 254 then surpassed and was under 1.000 while the 80 took another day and a half. My official results :
> ...




I hope this shows up the way I posted it. My results were similar. The yeast was pitched 4-30-2018.

5/2/2018 D80 1.068
D254 1.072
R56 1.072

5/4/2018 D80 1.032
D254 1.058
R56 1.028

5/6/2018 D80 1.011
D254 1.020
R56 1.005

5/8/2018 D80 1.000
D254 .996
R56 .997


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## 4score (May 18, 2018)

Ahhhh, the ol D80 - D254 combo! Yes, we had much success with this. Our Barbera ended up winning a double gold and best-of-class at the CA State Fair using this yeast combo. Here's a thread where we compared the two: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/yeast-strain-question.52346/#post-638092


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## 4score (May 18, 2018)

We have also been using Andante yeast. It's no-H2S is really a big seller for us. After having gone through several battles with H2S, it was nice to have this all-star yeast. We also liked Andante because it had high tolerance to higher fermentation temps and high alcohol. That, combined with the no-H2S made it an easy choice. Results have been great. It plows through all our ferms with no issues. It does allow the wine to truly express itself. One interesting thing I read was that most yeasts allow for H2S. Now, sometimes the amount of H2S is noticeable and must be corrected (splash racking, copper, etc.), but many times there's H2S that you can't smell, but it's still there and masking "some" qualities of your wine. I like the idea of eliminating all H2S.

I'm curious on your D80,254 project......We had found that the 254 had a more aromatic nose, floral and fruity. The D80 didn't have as much smell, but tasted more fruit-forward. How does this aspect compare to yours?


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## mainshipfred (May 18, 2018)

Thanks for the tip on the Andante yeast, always good to have first hand experience advice. Unfortunately I immediately blended all the batches getting ready for the next and didn't compare them. Although personally I find it difficult to get an opinion on freshly fermented wine.


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## jpwatkins9 (May 19, 2018)

For those that have smelled rotten eggs, it is actually H2S that you are smelling. At about 10 ppm, it kills off your sense of smell. After that, you can’t smell it no matter how much there is. They do make detectors for the oil industry, could probably pick up an old one for little $$.

How much H2S are we talking about and how do we stop it if we find we have it?


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2018)

jpwatkins9 said:


> For those that have smelled rotten eggs, it is actually H2S that you are smelling. At about 10 ppm, it kills off your sense of smell. After that, you can’t smell it no matter how much there is. They do make detectors for the oil industry, could probably pick up an old one for little $$.
> 
> How much H2S are we talking about and how do we stop it if we find we have it?



At very small traces (seems like strength smell is the only ‘measuring’ needed for h2s) a nice splash rack introducing o2 can release some off smells. 
But really copper is the answer. Old school technique was to rack using a length a copper pipe- or through a copper sponge pad thing. But can also add too much copper that way. Copper sulfate or the popular Reduless is now used since it gives control to how much copper is used. https://morewinemaking.com/products/reduless.html
I keep a little piece of copper pipe with my wine gear. And have on occasion took a sample and stirred it up with the pipe. If it helps then I’m good. If not then I can eliminate that possibility.


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## 4score (May 20, 2018)

My personal experience with Reduless is that it helped but did not eliminate the problem. I've tried it at least three separate times. I find carefully measured copper sulfate is the answer (for me) when I have H2S issues. But now, with Andante, no more copper!


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2018)

4score said:


> I'm curious on your D80,254 project......We had found that the 254 had a more aromatic nose, floral and fruity. The D80 didn't have as much smell, but tasted more fruit-forward. How does this aspect compare to yours?



Well I did keep em separate and wanted to try and note the differences along the way before blending. 
At this point already a ton of differences. From color, ferment timeline, MLF visuals, even a big difference in the how the lees is packed. And with multiple vessels each I’m able to confirm these differences when consistent . And 254 definitely has a much stronger nose. 
But it’s still pretty difficult for me to say much else for sure yet. They just came off the gross lees yesterday. This week I’ll be putting in some lab time for everything. I’ll have a better idea then I think. 
Plus it wasn’t a true direct comparison. I added oak chips to 254 and not to 80. Which was kind of stupid in hindsight because now I won’t be able to discern yeast or oak. 
But the oak was my main curiosity here. D-80 and 254 combo is a proven winning combo it seems. Proven by the pros with real palates. But the oak thing is still highly debated. And I wanted to see for myself. I’ve used and not used but never had direct comparison before. A little precursor to the ‘@[email protected] cabfranc/oak’ showdown.


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2018)

I also bought a bunch of Andante last fall but never got the chance to use it. One thing I noticed on the renaissance site is that Andante, on top of being a beast for tolerances and no h2s, also aids the malo conversion. Typically 30% of malic into lactic. What’s not to like? 
I loaded up from a LodiLabs sale last August. I plan to do another large (for me) single varietal batch in fall using Andante—The big red gold standard: a west coast Cab Sauv! A few years of 1 varietal per season to blend up later is the plan. 
Already looking into options for the best Cab available here on the east coast. I want a BIG cab. If she needs more years to come around so be it. I don’t buy expensive cabs often but had a couple recently and was reminded of what I’m striving for. An ‘07 Walla Walla Leonetti Cellar Cab Sauv (a gift) And ‘12 Raymond Napa Cab. The bouquets alone on were so big and complex I swear I could taste it just from smelling. I wish i had the money to exclusively drink quality wines like this. Im going for broke and raising the bar!


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## BigH (May 20, 2018)

71B if my starting pH is low and I need to get rid of some acid. Typically use on Marquette, Frontenac, La Crescent and Edelweiss. Otherwise, RC212 for lower acid reds like St Croix, Petite Pearl, and Foch. I like QA23 for fruity whites that have a starting pH north of 3.2 after chaptalization (Brianna, La Crosse)

I am still pretty green, so I haven't tried a ton of different yeast strains. Hard to deviate from what has worked. I have given D47, Pasteur Red (now Premier Rouge), Pasture Champagne, cotes du blanc, and premier cuvee a try. 

I would like to try Lalvin C, which is another malic acid muncher, but I have not found it in small quantities. 

H


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