# Plastic bottle carboys



## koda_ky (Nov 21, 2009)

Ok I tried the plastic 3 gallon carboys and at first I liked them until I got a glass one. I went to pick up my cranberry and the plastic jug let the water in the air lock suck back into my wine. I still may use them until I can afford to replace them with glass ones, also I shake to degas you can forget it in the plastic jugs. just my opinion.


----------



## cpfan (Nov 21, 2009)

koda_ky:

When you pick up the plastic carboy, try to support the bottom well. The air-lock liquid is likely to suck back in.

Shaking a plastic carboy is OK. I put a solid bung in it and hold it in place while shaking. Then release the gas.

BTW, I prefer glass carboys, although I do use a Better Bottle occasionally.

Steve


----------



## arcticsid (Nov 21, 2009)

Oh no, I just know they is something sarcastic to say about releasing gas and shaking. My worry is that something worse can happen if you shake to hard!!ROTFLMAO.

Sorry, I can resist anything but temptation.

LOL

Troy


----------



## arcticsid (Nov 21, 2009)

besides that last ridiculous post, I am pretty much sold on the Better Bottle. As Steve said they lack rigitity, and I would prefer glass myself. However, when you consider about a dollar a pound US to ship anything here, the better bottle seems to be the way to go, at least for me.

And speaking of weight, they really are a whole lot easier to move around. I just bought a few better bottles from my LHBS for about 15/each. (3 gallon size). For a 3 gallon glass carboy the price was almost $30/each. I failed algebra three times in college, but, I was able to do the math pretty quick on that one. Time will tell. Their website insists they are fine for fermenting. I hope I don't get any off flavors from the use of these plastic carboys. They may lack in the rigitity part, but from what I have heard they are a pretty good product.

Steve, do you know of anyone who has actually allowed there wine to age in these for any length of time, racked it off, and was still able to clean them without any lingering off tastes.

How would you recommend cleaning and sanitizing these before the first fill? I filled mine with warm water. Shook it till I "de-gassed" (still lmao), dumped it, then rinsed it the same way with a K meta solution. Still not convinced I didn't detect an odor of plastic. (I hope it was plastic LOL)

We have had this discussion in here many times about plastic vs glass. But is there any evidence that these better bottles are indeed tolerant to fermentation and the plastic wont leech bad flavors into you wine?

These bottles have the "1" in the triangle on the bottom, but I have seen other plastics with the same designation.

There website is www.better-bottle.com

Please advise.

Troy


----------



## Wade E (Nov 21, 2009)

Troy the better bottels are fine for any part of win e making as they use a dble layer of heavier food grade plastic. I just dont like the collapsability of them and the fact that I cant degas my wine with my pump in them.


----------



## cpfan (Nov 21, 2009)

Troy:

There have been many disussions on the various forums about plastic carboys, mostly Better Bottles. (BTW when I ran the store, I used two other brands of plastic carboys.) There has not been, to my eyes, a conclusive answer wrt aging. I would be concerned about following a strong flavour (eg blackberry) with something delicate.

I have been using a product from Spagnols called Saniton as my cleaner since 2001. I believe that it is TSP based. I clean everything with that, then sanitize.

Steve


----------



## arcticsid (Nov 21, 2009)

Just to clarify, the bottles I bought are the solid, non collapsible type. They are square shaped. In fact I believe this particular ones are new to their product line.

PS, just to make all our Canadian friends happy tonight I am drinking "MOLSON CANADIAN". Not bad but it was cheap!!!!LOL


----------



## cpfan (Nov 22, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> PS, just to make all our Canadian friends happy tonight I am drinking "MOLSON CANADIAN". Not bad but it was cheap!!!!LOL


If you're going to drink Canadian beer, you should drink something good. Like Rickards or Sleemans or ????? (gee thats about it) Sorry but Molson Canadian is one of my least favourite beers.

Steve


----------



## Leanne (Nov 22, 2009)

I've used many types of plastic over the years. As long as it is food grade. I've never had a problem.


----------



## St Allie (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm currently aging a wine that was forgotten in the barn ( bulk aging) in a plastic water bottle ( 3 gallons)...so far it was left 5 months to bulk age . I then 'saved it' into glass 1 gallon carboys..

I have kept notes and will give an impartial report early next year when I bottle it...as to whether there were any off flavours imparted.. or any other issues..

the wine was started in may 2009, finished /cleared/stabilised and bulk stored by late june. Located and moved to glass mid november. 

I'm a bit tired of the whole 'hearsay' argument re water bottles used for bulk storage.

So putting my wine where my mouth is and going to to give you guys the result of my experiment.

this is an 'apple wine' btw..

Allie


----------



## Leanne (Nov 22, 2009)

Well said Allie. I'll do the same.


----------



## Tom (Nov 23, 2009)

Got this from another Wine forum

*According to our water delivery guy, he asked at his office, the plastic in the standard water bottles is permeable to oxygen, IE it lets oxygen in. 
Use at your own risk. Really, Less than $30 for a brand new food grade plastic carboy from one of many major on-line retailers is pretty dang cheap.[/*SIZE]


----------



## TheTooth (Nov 23, 2009)

I'd rather have some vodka sucked in through my airlock when I pick up the carboy than have wine and shards of glass all over the floor if I drop it. As clumsy as I can be, I guarantee you I will drop one someday.


----------



## St Allie (Nov 23, 2009)

Tom said:


> Got this from another Wine forum
> 
> *According to our water delivery guy, he asked at his office, the plastic in the standard water bottles is permeable to oxygen, IE it lets oxygen in.
> Use at your own risk. Really, Less than $30 for a brand new food grade plastic carboy from one of many major on-line retailers is pretty dang cheap.[/*SIZE]




again.. it's 'hearsay" Tom..

I'm gonna go with actually storing wine in it myself and being able to present you with my own facts in this one instance.

How much oxygen is getting through?.. if oxygen gets in why isn't the C02 getting out?.. the apple wine I had stored was still gassy after 5 months.. did that protect it?

Who knows?.. give me til about february next year.. and I might have some answers..

hehehhehe

I'm willing to risk my 3 gallons of apple wine on it anyway..

Allie


----------



## mmadmikes1 (Nov 23, 2009)

arcticsid said:


> Just to clarify, the bottles I bought are the solid, non collapsible type. They are square shaped. In fact I believe this particular ones are new to their product line.
> 
> PS, just to make all our Canadian friends happy tonight I am drinking "MOLSON CANADIAN". Not bad but it was cheap!!!!LOL


OK Artic, Moose Juice????? that is like drinking decaf coffee, why bother


----------



## BobF (Nov 23, 2009)

St Allie said:


> again.. it's 'hearsay" Tom..
> 
> I'm gonna go with actually storing wine in it myself and being able to present you with my own facts in this one instance.
> 
> ...


 
I read some Better Bottle specs *somewhere* that said they do let o2 in. They discussed it like it's a good thing at the small amounts in question.

I'm pretty sure an oak barrel is also permeable to o2 to some degree.

Here's the link: http://www.better-bottle.com/technical.html


----------



## cpfan (Nov 23, 2009)

Better Bottles (whick look a LOT like water jugs) are made of different plastic than water jugs. Yes they may both be made from PET (recycling code 1) but that means absolutely nothing, because there are thousands of different PET plastics all with different characteristics.

Take a look at a Pepsi bottle and a cheap water bottle. Totally different PET plastic used in each.

Steve


----------



## Mud (Nov 23, 2009)

I keep my glass carboys in wooden crates I built myself. Have done that since clinking a 5 & a 6 together and losing the 5. Fortunately they were empty, but a crate would keep you from squeezing the plastic bottle when lifting, avoiding sucking in airlock water. Just a thought.

Your own taste buds will tell you if something is being leached in large enough quantity to taste but only a lab will be able to tell you if smaller amounts are present. Plasticizers are insidious.


----------



## arcticsid (Nov 23, 2009)

Bob, I don't have time to look through that link right now, but I will, but that sure looks like it'll provide the answers to the questions regarding concerns about better bottles. Thanks for posting the link.


----------



## koda_ky (Nov 23, 2009)

Mud said:


> I keep my glass carboys in wooden crates I built myself. Have done that since clinking a 5 & a 6 together and losing the 5. Fortunately they were empty, but a crate would keep you from squeezing the plastic bottle when lifting, avoiding sucking in airlock water. Just a thought.
> 
> Your own taste buds will tell you if something is being leached in large enough quantity to taste but only a lab will be able to tell you if smaller amounts are present. Plasticizers are insidious.




Mud that would work thanks.


----------



## arcticsid (Nov 23, 2009)

Seems like a regular old milk crate, the hard plastic kind, the kind that holds 4(1 gallon) jugs may work as well, at least you have some sort of handles to hang on to.

I've seen these handles that attach to a carboy for lifting, but have never used them. I kinda like the idea of some sort of crate myself.
Troy


----------



## Runningwolf (Nov 23, 2009)

Troy, those milk crates do work perfect for handling carboys. I only had a few so now I have the red handles on all of mine to assist in lifting. They really work well. I also used the milk crates for bottling but recently I found some new plastic crates that are used in nuseries for their plants and they hold nearly 30 bottles.


----------



## winesecrets (Nov 24, 2009)

I am excited to know about Allie's apple wine.


----------



## Daisy317 (Apr 8, 2010)

(I realize that this is an old post... but maybe I like zombies)

I am going to purchase a few better bottles tomorrow while I'm out and about. I only have about 3 days until I start my next batch of wine. Then another week or so til the NEXT batch... 

I can get 2 BBs for the price of a glass one. My glass ones were getting too heavy anyhow... and I only have one carboy now. I had 2 other glass carboys and I don't really want to talk about what happened to them... Let's just say my feelings were "shattered" by their demise... I don't want to repeat that...

Allie: I will be very interested to see your results also. I have access to "Culligan" bottles for free... but have stayed away from them for wine making for fear of ruining my wine.


----------



## arcticsid (Apr 8, 2010)

Daisy, I wouldn't be to concerned about using them for you primary ferment, but IMO, it just isn't woth the risk for anything long term.

Besides I am sold on using an open container(bucket) for the primary and just cover it with a cloth.

Others may disagree but it that argument will never be solved.

I am glad you are going with the better bottles they seem to be a real good product. But, I am curious, what are you paying for them? I got a deal but I bought 2 brand new ones for $15 each, the going rate is like $24. These were the 3 gallon ones, at the time all I have was a 5 gallon bucket for a primary, but even the 5 gallon BB are not much more, and like you said, at least you can move them.


Troy


----------



## Runningwolf (Apr 8, 2010)

$15.00 a piece at Walkers for a five gallon.


----------



## St Allie (Apr 8, 2010)

Gosh..

I had completely forgotten about this thread.. thanks for the reminder..

The apple wine was bottled a bit earlier.. some in december and some in february.. after I got back from holidays.

My teens had a few bottles a week or so back ( I'm a terrible mum giving them alc.. but they are not allowed to leave the property.. so no one will know!) It was a hit with them.. probably because it was free .. however they said it tasted good ..(it was sweetened..).. and their friends are trying to buy bottles off me now.. (not going to happen!)

There was no plastic taste at all.. so I am inclined to continue using the water bottles.. and any oxygenation in such a short time.. will most probably have given the wine a more aged taste..

Allie


----------



## Daisy317 (Apr 8, 2010)

I use a bucket for primary fermentation. I cover with cheese cloth that has been folded several times and simply sit the lid on the bucket without sealing it. My method hasn't done me wrong so far.

Regular price is $25 for a 6 gal BB locally. When they're on sale you can sometimes get them for 20. A glass one goes for $40+ for the same size. I would rather buy local than online and don't mind paying a little more to keep the little guys open because they're always there when I need something in a pinch!

To keep my hobby from getting out of control I only have one primary bucket (I don't like to bottle a gazillion gallons at once). I like to have an extra empty carboy around to rerack if needed. Plus, I have some major wine making plans in the near future and hate going out a gazillion times for supplies. AND, sometimes they'll throw regulars a discount if you drop a decent amount of coin in the shop at once.


----------



## St Allie (Apr 8, 2010)

I have two glass 23 litre carboys now.. ( I sold one).. and far prefer my 1 gallon carboys.. I can do small or larger batches.. in a primary and just divide amongst the 1 gallon ones.. they finish quicker and I can put them all in a larger carboy for aging if I choose to.

Am really happy using the water jugs.. both 11 litre and 15 litre carboys for storage up to 5-6 months..particularly for whites as they are drunk earlier.

this is just my preference of course..


do what works for you..

Allie


----------



## Daisy317 (Apr 8, 2010)

Allie: I haven't used the smaller carboys yet, but probably should since I have people who much rather prefer really dry wines. I never really thought of them clearing quicker. Good point!

I'm glad to hear that the water jugs work out for you. I may have to try a batch in one to see how it works out for me.

I haven't bulk aged anything and usually use clearing agents so that I can turn around my wines quicker... Patience is not one of my virtues!


----------



## St Allie (Apr 8, 2010)

Daisy,

I do love my small carboys..they are the same work as a larger one.. however you don't always have enough fruit for 23 litres at once.

Allie


----------



## myakkagldwngr (Apr 9, 2010)

I have 1 6 gal. glass, 1 6 gal. plastic better bottle and several 5 gal. water bottles. I would love to go all glass, but at $45 each here locally they are way down on my list. I don't mind the plastic better bottles and $25 from ECK with free shipping is a good deal. When I can swing it, I will buy a glass one from my Mom & Pop just to keep a local business going and some BB's too.
Something else I've considered, but that's still now where in the budget, is a big SS stock pot for a primary. It seems sooner or later all the plastic ones get a cracked lid, or else scratches in the bucket. For about $100 you can buy a 10 gal. stock pot with a lid.


----------



## robie (Apr 9, 2010)

I have read some good things about Better Bottles (BB) on another forum.

When you have a temperature increase, a BB's walls can expand without blowing the stopper out or leaking out whatever (argon?) is in the gap between the wine and the stopper. It won't typically suck air back in when the temperature goes back down.

A BB can be girdled with a tie-down ratcheted strap. If the wine level in the bottle needs only a couple of cups to fill the air gap, the strap can be tightened a little to raise the level of wine in the bottle, so topping off with marbles or a like wine is not always necessary.

The BB WILL NOT break even if dropped 10 feet while filled with liquid. (Yep, you will have a mess to clean up, but not a shattered carboy.)

The BB DOES NOT affect the taste of the wine.

The BB DOES NOT let in even microscopic amounts of air through the plastic, as many people think.

A BB is much liter than a glass carboy.

To move a BB, you MUST remove the air lock first. Lifting the BB by the neck will suck the solution out of the air lock and into the wine. When you set it back down, any solution left in the air lock will blow out the top of the air lock. Its best to replace the bung/air lock with a solid stopper when moving the BB. 

BB is cheaper that a glass carboy.

That BB will virtually last you forever.

You can't put a vacuum on a BB to degas.


----------



## Runningwolf (Apr 9, 2010)

Robie, keep talking you're convincing me except for the fact I use a vacuum pump and I have a small fortune in the glass already .


----------



## TheTooth (Apr 9, 2010)

Good summary, Robie. I haven't thought of putting a tie-down strap on my carboy to take up head-space. I might have to try that.

On a side note, the gas in the head space is CO2, which is a byproduct of fermentation.


----------



## Wade E (Apr 9, 2010)

Yeah, I never thought about the squeezing of the Better Bottle to reduce airspace. I use vacuum procedures for almost all my work so it doesnt fit into my wine itinerary.


----------



## NSwiner (Apr 9, 2010)

myakkagldwngr said:


> I have 1 6 gal. glass, 1 6 gal. plastic better bottle and several 5 gal. water bottles. I would love to go all glass, but at $45 each here locally they are way down on my list. I don't mind the plastic better bottles and $25 from ECK with free shipping is a good deal. When I can swing it, I will buy a glass one from my Mom & Pop just to keep a local business going and some BB's too.
> Something else I've considered, but that's still now where in the budget, is a big SS stock pot for a primary. It seems sooner or later all the plastic ones get a cracked lid, or else scratches in the bucket. For about $100 you can buy a 10 gal. stock pot with a lid.



Wow I can't believe you pay that much for carboys . I pay $20.00 for a 23 liter and $17.00 for a 11.5 liter . That's right here in town but I dod know they pay more then that in the city . Personally I think if you use the water bottles made in the past year the plastic is probably safer then older bottles . I only reuse the plastic bottles that the Ocean Spray juices come in to ferment small batches . I figure if they can store the juices in them for months it can handle some wine for a couple months .


----------



## robie (Apr 10, 2010)

Dan,
I would never replace my glass. I just don't buy anymore. Yep, you need glass to vacuum. It was so funny the first time I tried to use the vacu vin on my better bottle. The level of wine just kept getting higher and higher, until it dawned on me what was happening.

Tooth,
During bulk aging, some folks put argon in the head space instead of topping off. The problem is that as the temperature goes up, some of the argon gets pushed out. Then, when the temp goes back down, air gets sucked back in. This repeated argon out and air in action eventually will replace much of the argon with air, so you have to lay a new layer of argon to replenish it.

One would still need to replenish the argon in a BB, but just not as often. Of course the best approach is to have a stable temperature in your bulk aging area... which I don't.


----------



## TheTooth (Apr 13, 2010)

robie said:


> Tooth,
> During bulk aging, some folks put argon in the head space instead of topping off. The problem is that as the temperature goes up, some of the argon gets pushed out. Then, when the temp goes back down, air gets sucked back in. This repeated argon out and air in action eventually will replace much of the argon with air, so you have to lay a new layer of argon to replenish it.
> 
> One would still need to replenish the argon in a BB, but just not as often. Of course the best approach is to have a stable temperature in your bulk aging area... which I don't.



Interesting. I didn't know people added argon to their carboys. I guess it makes sense. I know they make argon cans to displace air in bottles you want to reclose and save for later. I've never bothered with it, though.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought you couldn't remember what gas was created by fermentation when I saw the question mark next to "Argon" in your original comment. Oops.


----------



## bradp (Jun 19, 2010)

I had 7 better bottles and 5 of them cracked on the bottom. Now I only use glass.


----------



## BobF (Jun 20, 2010)

St Allie said:


> Daisy,
> 
> I do love my small carboys..they are the same work as a larger one.. however you don't always have enough fruit for 23 litres at once.
> 
> Allie


 
Allie - I made a bit of a compromise. I've moved from 1g to 3g. I will prolly add 3 or 4 6g at some point for things I really want a lot of like elderberry. If I do add 6's though, I'll add an electric vacuum pump at the same time.

The 3's are still light enough to move when full without getting nervous, but give 3x as many bottles as 1's for the same effort+time.


----------



## St Allie (Jun 20, 2010)

BobF said:


> Allie - I made a bit of a compromise. I've moved from 1g to 3g. I will prolly add 3 or 4 6g at some point for things I really want a lot of like elderberry. If I do add 6's though, I'll add an electric vacuum pump at the same time.
> 
> The 3's are still light enough to move when full without getting nervous, but give 3x as many bottles as 1's for the same effort+time.



I have about 12x 3 gallon carboys and close to 16 x 4 gallon ones.

all plastic and all used for grapefruit wine. My blokes' family have fallen hard for grapefruit wine.. I can't 'not' make any more. 

They have 'word of mouth' told everyone that will listen, that grapefruit wine is beyond compare.

so I am stuck


and grapefruit season is next month..

please give up skeeter pee and try grapefruit wine.. Please!

Allie

xxx


----------



## cpfan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sorry Allie, one of the pills I`m on means I`m not allowed grapefruit.

And we so liked the Niagara Mist Pink Grapefruit Blush.

Steve


----------



## BobF (Jun 20, 2010)

St Allie said:


> I have about 12x 3 gallon carboys and close to 16 x 4 gallon ones.
> 
> all plastic and all used for grapefruit wine. My blokes' family have fallen hard for grapefruit wine.. I can't 'not' make any more.
> 
> ...


 
I can't get my head around the idea of grapefruit wine ...

Maybe some day when the racks are overflowing with stuff I know I like.


----------



## bigabyte (Jun 20, 2010)

Grapefruit wine? Wow. Yeah, I think I'll have to give that a try for sure.


----------



## Runningwolf (Jun 20, 2010)

cpfan said:


> Sorry Allie, one of the pills I`m on means I`m not allowed grapefruit.
> 
> And we so liked the Niagara Mist Pink Grapefruit Blush.
> 
> Steve



LOL Steve as I was reading through this thread Allie was making me real thirsty for it and BAMMM I remembered the same thing that you posted


----------



## Boyd (Jun 20, 2010)

*Grapefruit and statin type drugs don't go together at all.*


----------



## Runningwolf (Jun 20, 2010)

Just another thought about better Bottles...If you are cold stabilizing will they be more susceptible to cracking when you move them? I did break down and buy two new ones for $15. because I could only get the juice in five gallon containers. Most of my carboys are six gallon.


----------



## bigabyte (Jun 20, 2010)

I have to admit, since learning about the closed circuit racking with the Better Bottles, I have started to consider getting a couple of them. Now that I am looking towards upgrading from my 1 gallon setup inventory to 5 and 6 gallon, well, the cost difference is appreciable.


----------

