# when good wines gone bad



## joeswine

rocky I lost my last post but if you have a kit wine and made it to tha process than what you have in hand is a balanced wine,doesn't matter what it lacks what matters is you understand the balance and the structure of the wine,from that piont you can reconstrust the wine and make a much better product than you finishes with,remember i made a state ment (when good wines gone bad) thats the key thinking outside the box,when I want to make a wine,i first buy the kit make it and deicect it,the next time i do it with fresh juice,or a cheap kit and enhance the kit or process it to fit my cryteria,if youknow the body andthe structure of wine and want to be creative theirs no limits ,as a cellard dwellar i need to be creative,make my own,wines and to a good standard ,think about the make up of wine the next time you by a 69.95 kit make it and then change its flavor and body as much as it will allow you to,pm me and we will make a kit =together of your choosing.......or lets reconstructe a kit in process and you can see for yourself.................jp


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## Rocky

Thank you, Joe. I will take you up on that offer. Right now, I have two big kits to make, but they are the RJS Winery Series and I like them fine the way they are. I will try a 10 liter kit in the future and we can collaborate on it.


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## joeswine

sounds like A PLAN,,,,you wont be disapointed...as far as good wines gone bad,we all know the usages of extracts and how to prepare them ,fpac,oaking the difference in maturation with fruit and wine ,vest and wine ,cold fermentation,raisins and other off the wall additives,just take a look at any kit low end or high end,look at whats supplied with each and the balance of concentrates verses juice,take that and plot a course of action,the difference between a straight kit maker and a fresh juice maker is wide ,IMOP,APPLEMAN AND THOSE WHO GROW there own raw product have many more bumps in the road to traverse,than kit people,but the net result can be the same,,,WHEN GOOD WINES GONE BAD ,came into play we discovered how diverse wine making can be,we also discuss how to correct some of the problems that came down the road and how we solved them to the best of our ability,..the first item was----( what were we trying to make)...should I continue????


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## Rocky

By all means Joe, continue.


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## joeswine

take for example,you want to make a cab,no big deal right,so you first see what the kit manufacture set out for you to use as yeast, ,do a little research,go on line and find out what yeast really goes best with that wine,research even further and see what charastics the wine should have,armed with this info,your ready to create a decent to good wine out of a shallow box wine kit,but you must first do the research,and want to see this thought,I say this only once and you will not hear it again,......start to make the kit or fresh juice for that matter,,,the difference is when to add the body ,how to create layers of flavor.....notice the term LAYERS&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;are you with me.....think of a good gravy and that's your wine,read it like you would a good sauce,not just fermenting stuff......................step one,,have the type wine in mind..no the yeast that brings out the best in that style (don't rely on word of mouth) its not that accurate...everyone's taste is different...buy yourself a good bottle of that style and drink it as you do make notes of the texture,nose,and body,remembering body comes in three types....once you've done that you are ready to really begin to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX....shall I cont.?


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## Rocky

Joe, you are saying that the yeast packet that comes with a kit is not necessarily the best match for that wine, right? I am aware that some yeasts are for lower potential alcohols and some are for higher potential alcohols. What other criteria is there in matching the yeast with the wine?


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## Rocky

Joe, I understand the three classes of "body" but I am not sure how body and texture differ. Can you explain?


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## joeswine

yeast , depending on the type and style of wine being made,brings out the taste potential of the host wine,as well as other features a grape may posess...there is a tech. name but it escapes me right now...so what they give you may be OK,it might not be the best..check out the LAVIN yest chart on line as well as others.............you'll see..also the age and storage of the yeast they give you may not be as fresh as it should be,thats why you need to build up a work kit of parts ,or a small list of additives,and components to have on hand for doing just what I do......adjusting ..............


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## joeswine

(remember the sauce) so if i refer to the sauce you'll understand me ok..IMOP..texture and body could be described as one but i like to brake THEM DOWN A LITTLE FUTHER..first body....the way the wine wine coats the tongue and mouth....texture the different flavors you taste as you drink or swirl,this can change but not the body....you'll see down the line...give you an example....

you have a white wine you just made nothing to wright home about.......what to do...thoughs ...where to start...what about taste..look in your repair kit...is there white grape concentrate,no,go out and by 3lbs. or so of Thompson seedless grapes for hand crushing,no,take the zest of 2 grapes fruits or oranges,or if citrus is to your Mediterranean taste the zest of 2 lime/lemons and 2grape fruit,add it to the sauce and let stand for 3/4 weeks at least,check it will be delight full..then taste...will continue later..ok..


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## Rocky

Very interesting, Joe. I have checked out and saved some yeast charts and if I am reading them correctly, the Lalvin EC-1118 that comes with just about every kit may not be the best choice.


Also, on your idea of a "repair kit" I have already tried something like that with a Riesling that I made. I served in Germany back in the 1960's and remember the wine having a "green apple" taste in the background. I got some Granny Smith apples, juiced them in my juicer and added the juice to the wine after adding Potassium Sorbate. Tastes really great.


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## joeswine

some of these fixes were invented by the Greeks and romans,to be a good wine maker at our level one needs to think outside the box when a problem arises.




by using the fresh grapes (as above) and allowing them to set in the wine a while you've started a body texture process..buy using currents after secondary you start to create body and even more texture....adding the zest to any white wine you can bring a brightness to the wine without over acidify the wine..these steps when taken in the right order will correct a good white wine gone bad.....and create a good sauce i n the end...knowing when to do this for my part has become a ongoing experiment....


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## joeswine

any questions,so far?


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## Rocky

No questions, really Joe. 


From what you say, the "repair kit" could really be a list of items that one could use to adjust the wine. You would not have to have the items on hand necessarily. As long as you knew that adding currants would do this and adding raisins would do that, you could purchase the items as needed rather than inventory them.


Let me ask this question. I have noticed in the past when I have a really great Cabernet Sauvignon, I get a taste of _green peppers_. If I wanted to add this to a wine, how would I proceed? 


Thanks, Joe. I am really enjoying your posts.


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## joeswine

what your tasting is something of a transition on your taste buds,the phloems that are created by using different yeast givethe wine its destine flavors,how ever these are not recreated through adjustments,this is the nature of the juice and the areas they were grown in,nature does play a role,in the creation also.....taste berried deep in the grape can be release through the proper construction and preparation of wine


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## Rocky

Joe, I do not understand how the _phloems_ are involved in winemaking. My recollection from botany (and this was a long time ago) is that the phloem tubes transmit food and nutrients within the plantandare found in the stems and not in the fruit. Can you clarify?


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## joeswine

I may have gotten the verbiage wrong ,its has to do with the taste structure of the raw product and the taste that is imported from it to you in molecule form,,,,,,,ex.sweet tart sharp,bitter..it will come to me..






extracts are another tool for your kit very handy and long lasting ,have you ever made lemon cello ? this is part extract..have you ever made a holiday wine? this is also made up impart of spices and herbs in extract form..I told you it could get length should i stop?


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## Rocky

I am thoroughly enjoying this, Joe. Only stop if you are getting tired of doing it.


No, I have not made lemoncello, but I have drunk enough of it. No Holiday wines either other than mulled wine that we mix atChristmas.


From what you say, did you mean either "pyrazines" or "phenolic compounds" when you said "phloems?"


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## joeswine

phenolic compounds I think,,go back to you repair kit "




you should have extract,making and extract isn't hard ,what you are attempting to do is remove the oils from certain types of items for a better word.


EX.oranges,almonds,cinnamon,most citrus and herbs,the way i do this is to start with lets say lemons,.take the zest of 8 large lemons place it in a quart ball jar and fill the remaining volume of the jar with either everclear, or vodka,I prefer everclear more kick to the once and it goes a lot farther than vadavaka is littler in color and to some smoother,however let the two items set with each other for at least a month to two months and now you have a basis for limoncello,that along with simple syrup and there it is ,annasset is the same,when creating a holiday wine and if you can make yourown plumwine add the wine ,simple syrup and extracts of cinnamon and orange the end product is not only to your individual taste its a example of the proper use of extracts....extracts can also be used to fix a good wine good bad..ever now and then I'll make a viognier and add extract of orange and back sweeten just a little to give it a fresh summers touch..SEE..can you see the uses and the advantages of having these items in your kit and they last for up to 2years at least then they should be refreshed....


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## Rocky

Very interesting, Joe. Have you ever made a greenapple extract? I have seen them for sale on line, but I was going to try to make one. Would I be on the right track if I juiced the apples (skin and all), boiled off as much water as I could and then added the vodka or Ever Clear?


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## Rocky

BTW, I am not sure I can buy Ever Clear here in Ohio. It is reallygrain alcohol (about 190 proof, or so) as I remember. I think they sell it in PA. I may be able to pick up a bottle there.


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## hannabarn

WOW! Some very interesting info and ideas here. When Joe gets going he really pops out some good ideas.


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## Rocky

Yes, Barney, very interesting. I will be trying some of the ideas soon.


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## joeswine

HAY HANN ..HAVENT HEARD FROM YOU IN A DOGS AGE...HOW ARE THINGS UP THERE.....????????????///YES NEAT TRICKS TO FOOL THE WINE INTO BEING SOMETHING IT DID TURN OUT TO BE...


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## joeswine

YES EVERCLEER IS PURE GRAIN ....HIGH TEST....BUT IT GOES A LONG WAY FOR WHAT YOU'LL USE IT FOR HERE IT SELLS FOR ABOUT $20.00 A BOTTLE,,,DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW EASY IT IS TO MAKE SO



MANY OF THE CELLOS BY USEING THE EXTACTS AND SIMPLE SYRUP..AND IF YOUR REALLY WANT TO TWEEK A WINE ADD SOME EVERCLEER TO LETS SAY BLUEBERRY WINE AND LET IT SET FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS...IT CAN MAKE A GREAT BRANDY WINE.......WITH AGEING.....NEXT WE 'ILL MOVE INTO FPACS....HOW TO MAKE THEM FRESH AND FRUIT FULL....MAKE A BLACKBERRY PINO NIOR....FROM KIT OR JUICE YOUR CHOICE......BUT FIRST FPACS,,,,JOE'S STYLE NEVER FROZEN ALWAYS IN SEASON....


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## Rocky

Thanks Joe. Did you see my question on green apple extract? I would like to know how to make one. 


I am ready to learn all about f-packs.


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## joeswine

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MAKING A CELLO OR AS A ADDITIVE TO WINE?



iF i WERE GOING TO MAKE A CELLO OF APPLES,GREEN OR NOT,i THINK I WOULD USE A CONCENTRATED JUICE TO START WITH,REMEMBER I STATED APPLES,PEARS AND MOST HARD FRUIT MAKE A VERY DELICATE DRINK,IF YOU BUY A BOTTLE OF APPLES WINE OR PEAR WINE,YOU SHOULD NOTICE THE TASTE IS VERY SUTTLE UNLESS THEY'VE ADDED CONCENTRATES TO THE MIX,SO IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A APPLE CELLO,THEN CONCENTRATED APPLE JUCIES,SIMPLE SYURP,AND EVEVCLEER IF YOU CAN GET IT...

HAVING A REPAIR KIT AROUND WITH ALL THE NECESSARY TOOLS IN IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE ON HAND...DID I ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?


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## Rocky

Yes, Joe. That answers my question. Can't wait to start on f-packs!


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## joeswine

FPACS..JOES STYLE 


A LONG TIME AGE TEPE CAME TO ME AND ASKD ME TO SHOW HIM AND HE HAS BEEN DOING THEM EVER SINCE AND BEYOND.....

















IN ITS SIMPLEST OF TERMS ITS EXTRACTING FLAVOR FROM A ITEM AND ADDING IT TO ANOTHER ITEM PRODUCING A FLAVOR DEMENSION THE ORIGINAL ITEM NEVER HAD...,


!. MAKING OF A GOOD FPAC
A. 5LBS OF FRESH FRUIT IN SEASON OF YOUR CHOICE (I LIKE 
BERRIES)
B. PLACE IN ALARGER SAUCE PAN(THERE GOES THAT WORD AGAIN) THE BEERIES AND A VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF WATER,JUST TO START THE DESOLVING DOWN OF THE PRODUCE,,KEEP STIRRING OVER LOW HEAT YOU DON'T WANT TO COOK THEM JUST HEAT THEM TROUGH AND DREAK THEM DOWN,,WHEN YOU SEE THAT THE BERRIES ARE FALLING APART,PUT A PINCH OF KMET INTO THE MIX...AND PSORBATE...STIR ITWEELL AFTER A WILL YOU SHOULD SEE THE MIX GET THICKER AND MORE OF A PRESERVE TEXTURE THEN YOU NO YOUR READY. 


C. REMOVE SOME OF THE FINISHED WINE TO ACCOMMIDATE THE FPAC.......NOW HERES THE TRICK...ALSO REMOVE THE WINE AND PLACE IT IN A LARGE STERILIZE CONTAINER ..I USE A 8 GALLON WINE FERMENTER IT LOOKS LIKE A BIG WHITE TRASH CAN..ADD THE FRUIT FIRST THEN THE WINE TO TASTE- YOU NEED TO DECIDE WHICH YOU WANT OT BE THE BOSS THE FRIUT OR THE WINE ,IF IT ISTHE FRUIT PLACE THE FRUIT FPAC FIRST IF ITS THE WINE THEN THE WINE GOES IN FIRST ...WHAT EVER THE PREDOMINATETASTE YOU WANT THATS WHAT GOES FIRST THEN ADD THE SECOND ELEMENT ALWAYS TO TASTE ( TASTE AS YOU DO THIS PART OF THE PROCESSS THIS IS THE MOST CRIDICAL PART,IT TO CAN BE CORRECTED BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO IF YOU TASTE ....GOT IT..LET IT ALL SET FOR 24HRS. THEN BE PREPEAIED TO BOTTLE ..GO AHEAD AND TASTE- IS IT TO YOUR LIKING THEN BOTTLE........PHASE ONE STYLE OF FPACS IS COMPLETED..ANY QUESTIONS...BEFORE PHASE TWO..REMEMBER THE EXTRACTS THIS IS HOW THEY BEGAN........ADDING THEM AT THIS POINT IS A HOLE NOTHER STORY.....................


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## Rocky

Sounds great, Joe. I am with you on this. No questions about the process. I do wonder how you decide which fruits to use. I suppose it isjust a matter of taste and what flavors you want in the wine. Keep going.


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## joeswine

Its also a question of timing and geographical location and season,I for one are spoiled here in new jersey we have a abundance of fruit in season,unlike some other areas of the country hows life cycle season is short they have to do with what they can when they can,,I don't believe in freezing the fruit to brake down the cellar structure,i want all the juice the berries can give me and by the way 3 different wines i have contact with this the same ,but we all do this differently no ones incorrect its just how i do it,.

Now that you have created your first fpac my style,try just massing up berries and placing them in a wine of the same type what a flavor boost it gives to the host,let them maturate for a month then rack and see the difference they make don't forget to add a pinch of kmet and sulfite to the final ....


by doing this in this fashion I have created such tasty as blackberry pinot noir,raspberry Shiraz,and my own zinfandel pomegranate amongst others,2 different styles of fpacs both have there own way of enhancing the finial out come and both very simple..will continue later.....with making layers of flavor .just like a sauce..........


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## Runningwolf

Joe thanks for the tutorial. I am really enjoying reading this thread.


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## joeswine

FIX A CAB




ok rocky lets talk oak,,,there are all different types that we can us but if you look a a standard kit usually you get a small packet of oak,(doesn't matter what types or degree,and some time powdered oak)



1. standard cabernet
When I oak a wine I usually start with a cup of french oak no matter what they send (if it is really french



) no matter what comes with the kit or and iffresh juice tablespoon of either powder chestnuts or oak,that starts the layering process,(remember the sauce) this will get me through primary and secondary fermentation,after racking and checking sg,and the normal routine,I'll let it stand for 1 month then add another layer of powdered oak,this fortifies the body of the wine not the taste, it starts to add body and a better month feel if im not going to do MLF which I normally would not anyway,,,I 'v added oak twice now ,racked a few times (as time goes by)and tasted a little a long the way...if its a six gal. kit this should be enough tannins to cut the edge and add that bit we look for in a good cab....us you oak in layers ,build the flavor don't settle for just what the kit manufacturer wants,start thinking outside the box.I have never used a barrel to much work for me



...build upon what they give you...(ps if this were fresh juice I might do the powdered oak again (10 mos.) before bottling ,depending)


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## joeswine

thank you wofman,


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## Rocky

Sounds great Joe. I am with you so far and have no questions. I find this all very instructive and fascinating.


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## Brent2489

This gives me some ideas for that mystery glass jar in the freezer that will not freeze.


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## joeswine

AND WHAT IS IN THAT JAR?


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## Rocky

I'm guessing that it is Vodka in the jar, right Brent?


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## Rocky

Joe, I have to tell you, you are right on with this thread. 


Iam also a good cook (that is not just my opinion, but that of many other people). My Mom had four boys, no girls, and our house was the center for all holiday meals. We used to help out in the kitchen, not really cooking but doing all the other stuff. What we did not realize was we were learning just by helping. My Mom never threw anything away. If there was a dish that was not perfect, sheknewof a way to fix it.


It is the same with the wines we make. If they are not everything that we expected them to be, we can fix it if we don't loseour heads.In an earlier post I mentioned that I had made a Sangiovese from a 10 liter kit from _Wine Expert_ and, frankly, I was not crazy about it. Using your (think outside the box) methodology, I got some blackberry jam, nuked about a teaspoon and added it to a bottle of the wne. You have tounderstand that in 69 years on this planet, I have had a lot of wine. I can say, I have never had a store bought wine that tasted as good as this. Thank you, Joe. 


There is never _a bad wine_, just one that is _not quite finished_. I hope all the Newbies and some of the old timers on this forum take notice.


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## Brent2489

NO. Came from a mystery place in the deep dark woods of North Georgia.


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## Tom

Ahh,,,


White Lightning... Add a peach to it for a kick.


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## Rocky

Down the road from me,
There's an old hollow tree, 
Where you lay down a dollar or two, 
Go 'round the bend, 
Then you come back again,
And you get you some good old mountain dew.


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## joeswine

CREATING LAYERS OF BODY







We came a long way from th beginning,we went through extracts,fpacs and the art of blending fruit with wine ( only a sampling I know but you get the premise) oaking creating layers of flavor (just like a good sauce) for the quantities we make we can make these adjustments without to much trouble,do you agree,,,,,basically the body and the structure of wine we can adjust you just have to first have the knowledge and the tools in your fix it kit........or at least the will to try it...



I have taken my wine into many directions sometimes good some times not so good but i continue to evolve as a wine maker through my own trial and errors...and THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX...if there something else you would like to cover and LET ME KNOW&lt;&lt;PM me ...or stay on when good wines gone bad....this is a subject everone should be able to handel...



my friend TEPE and I have traveled down this road together many a time...


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## Tom

*Listen to Joe and learn "THINKING OUT OF THE BOX"*


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## joeswine

start of amarone international kit...the normal content you can find out,started the same way add the bentonite,1/2 gal of warm water and whisked it in ,(no change) next step is they ask you to bring it up to a 6 gallon mark,(ok).....and stir (ok)...add 3 packages of powdered oak( no)added 2.5 cups of french oak cubes and 1 bag of powdered oak (reserve the other two for later (these will be used to layer the texture in at different times...................check sg...at this point I personally don't care where the SG is..its a kit can't go to far off..added yeast 2 packets of premiere crever......wait 5/7 days then they ask you to add the dextrose( I make my own simple syurp and will bring the wine to the mfg. spects at that time......now we wait......


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## Rocky

Joe, I have a few questions:
1. Why did you add two packages of yeast? Did that come with the kit or is the Primier Cuvee your choice?
2. Did the dextroxe come with the kit? I have never seen an instruction like that and I have made two Amarone kits.
3. When you say "bring the wine up to manufacturing specs." what do you mean?
4. Why the change in oak? That is, why did you go from what was provided to the French oak cubes and powdered oak?


Thanks.


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## vcasey

2.5 cups of french oak cubes

What toast?


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## Tom

vcasey said:


> 2.5 cups of french oak cubes
> 
> What toast?





I know Joe and I bet its MED toast


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## joeswine

thats correct..................


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## tonyt

joeswine said:


> add 3 packages of powdered oak( no)added 2.5 cups of french oak cubes and 1 bag of powdered oak (reserve the other two for later (these will be used to layer the texture in at different times.



Please explain your oaking plan, you can't make us wait till the second episode.


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## joeswine

lost the first post&gt;&gt;&gt;.I guess the mfg. want a lot of abc. upfront,with inthe 5 to 7 day range they want you to capitalize the wine with the dexterous,which I will supplement with simple syrup,yeast was theirs,(came with the kit),,,,mfg. specs. (SG)....the change in the oak is to introduce more tannins up front and create a better balance in the end,only used one package of powdered oak really didn't need it for structure at this time(remember the layering)we will add as we go,to create moretexture and month fell,,,also by capitalizing the wine at that point there is ample yeast to take care of it ,simple syrup for me is easy to control,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,net step 5 to 7 days.....stay tooned


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## joeswine

WENT DOWN THIS MORNING IT HAS A GREAT LOOKING CAP ON IT ,BETWEEN THE POWERED OAK AND THE CUDE OAK,INFUSED WITH THE YEAST, IT TASTE IS STILL VERY FRUITY THATS WHY THE CAPITOLZATION PROCESS STILL TIME 5/7 DAYS ISN'T HERE YET,MADE MY SIMPLE SYURP,MIGHT ADD THE RASINS ALSO..........WE'LL SEE


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## joeswine

set up the amarone as per mfg. specs. to 1.010 add simple syrup to achieve that end and yes it started to re ferment....will see..what they intend to do ?...doesn't look to tasty at this point but we can alter that equaision.......in a heart beat..but first there way


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## joeswine

try this for example I did..took a wine selections kit (symphony)after it was completed, add the zest of 2 valencia oranges ,2 lemons and 2 grapefruit with a splash of coconut extract,what a refreshing tropical summer wine......taste like a pina colada


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## Tom

Is that what I tasted at Sundays meeting?


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## joeswine

YES............



....it was very refreshing


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## joeswine

IT"S a easy thing to do with any white wine kit,inexpensive,ones work well,,,,,,after fermentation and but before clearing add the zest,let it set a few weeks or until the zest turns whitish..then you will know the oils are extracted.....great for making sangria's with also...



..also when whites have lost their taste for some reason,(when good wines gone bad)


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## joeswine

the amarone saga continues&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;



.....after primary was over I removed enough wine to add room for the raisins(1LB sun maid) to fill the 6 gallon carboy to the top...secondary infusion is started ,plus if your remember,there were 3 packages of powdered oak,I added the second package of powdered oak at this time (layering )..this will give the wine more body with out additives....


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## joeswine

HAS ANY ONE ELSE TRIED THE ZEST APPROACH....TO CORRECT ING OR ENHANCING A GOOD WINE GONE BAD


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## joeswine

SAVE MY MELBEC






today I received 6 gallons of MELBEC from a lady winemaker in our group,she made this and bottled it after a while she opened a bottle and it popped she then opened another and full of gas ,we all know the scenario,I proceeded to put the wine in my 8 gallon open fermenter and stirred it until there were almost know gas left ,this then left me with a wine with not as much taste as she you like and definitely not the original taste which she love,,,,what to do, enter the fix it kit



,placed back into a 6 gallon carboy and added 1/2 cup oak cubes and one package of powdered oak,1/2 bottle of grape concentrate and a pinch of kmet,we will let this set and see what transpires.



the amarone is well on its way to finishing the raisins are about done their process in the evolution of this wines transformation will remove and test....tonight


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## Tom

Joe,
Where do you get powdered oak?


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## joeswine

TEPE I believe I got the big container from richmond hardware in buena,although brett may also be able to get it locally,also try the powdered chestnuts ,smooth.....if you also search look up glucose for wine making let me know what you find????


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## joeswine

AMARONE JUST TWEETED







well its been at least two weeks since I been down in the cellar and have been very busy in my ac business,however back to the amarone..remember how it started a medium grade kit ,the only flavor was in the juice and it was tasty,well now after adding the oak in layered,IM ready to add the final layer of oak,add the chemical and remove the raisins,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,here's how it finished out, great body ,good deep taste and love the alcohol just enough bite at 13%,this amarone could sit up for another 6 mos. and will only improve ,however its ready now...and didn't take years ,don't get me wrong it will improve with age but really that's the the strong suit of a kit ,....added oak in layers for body,raisinsto infusedepth and abv.....ready to go.......try it you'll like it.....THINKOUTSIDE THE BOX


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## joeswine

EXTRACTS




heres a good way to use extract of cinnamon and extract or orange.............main wine type PLUM..PLACE 4 BOTTLES OF PLUM WINE IN A LARGE POT, TO THAT ADD EXRTACT OR F ORANGE AD EXTRACT OF CINNIMON TO TAST WHICH EVER TAST YOU WANT TO BE PROMINEMT THATS THE EXTRACT TO GO HEAVERY,LET THE WINE MIX SIT FOR 24HRS, IN THE RERIGERATOR,remove and do a final taste test,this makes a great holiday wine and will sit up well all year long ,just one of the many different wines and drinks you can make on your own.....using extracts,




do you know how to make extracts? This is a very simple and old world method of infusion's wine with fruit..


EX. cinnamon ;;take a half of dz. cinnamon sticks and place in a ball canning jar,with ether everclear or vodka...the difference between the two is vodka finishes soft and not as pronounced forever (strong extract,while the everclear finishes hi alcohol and strong if flavor,it goes further than vodka because you don't have to use as much to achieve the flavor you desire...extract whether oranges ,lemons for limoncello, or any citrus additives are great to have in your tool kit and fun to work with..................EXTRACTS..........


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## joeswine

A GRAPE IN THE HAND






lets say you have a white wine that finishes out with a very lite body,what can you do ,try this if the wine is totally finished,and stabilized go to the super market look in the produce section theres always fresh green grapes in season, need 5 lbs.,take them home wash them and destem them by hand,in a colander squeeze them by hand don,t worry about the seeds at this point,after squeezing place the the juice back in a large pot and strain through cheese cloth,place the grapes in the carboy,add the juice to fill ,if theres any left over place in a separate container with a air lock for later,the grapes will float to the top,after a few days you'll start to see little bubbles ,thats the wine and the grapes starting to work with each other,by the end of week 3,(now comes the hard part) remove the juice then dump the grapes ,place the juice in a clean and sanitizes container check the SG....if fermentation is still taking place let it go until finished,then use chems and finding agent..the wine should have greater body ......after the body ,remember the ST if you would like to try


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## joeswine

Will be posting pics up soon...


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## joeswine

CHILEAN CHANTI




JUST TALKED TO ANOTHER WINE MAKER AT A DIFFERENT SITE AND HE IS PLANNING TO SPLIT HIS CHANIT INTO TWO DIFFERENT WINES THE FIRST WILL ENFUSE RASINS AND THE SECOND HES NOT SURE OF EITHER TO ZEST IT OR FPAC ,I SUGGESTED TO HIM TO TO DO THE RASIN AND HOW I WOULD PROCEED AND TO THE LATTER I THOUGHT BECAUSE CHANTI IS SUPPOSED TO BE DRY WHY NOT A BLACKBERRY FPAC FRESH SQUEEZED STYLE.......THIS WILL GIVE HIM TO DESTINTIVELY DIFFERENT WINES IF HE PULLS THEM OFF CORRECTLY,NOW THATS THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.................


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## joeswine

THE QUESTION..






as a small wine maker if you found a wine that you were processing and something started to go wrong. Would you throw itout, or try and fix it?



Thats



thequestion?


----------



## joeswine

CELLOS ANYONE









ON the next addition of this thread I'll do a short on the making of cellos


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## Tom

Joe,
Untill you said Cello's I forgot the Coffee one I started months ago. Guess it's ready to mix. What ratio (everclear/simple syrup to the extract) do you use?


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## tonyt

Yep, I need to start some Lemon. Got two Myer Lemon trees almost ready for picking. Will use the juice for wife's lemon drops.


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## joeswine

EXPRESSO CELLO








HERES HOW I DO IT ,

1.12 CPS OF FRESH EXPRESSO COFFEE
2. COFFEE EXTRACT
3. SIMPLE SYRUP


FIRST THE EXTRACT ,IN A QUART JAR,FILL WITH GOOD QUALITY COFFEE BEANS THEN FILL THE JAR WITH EVERKLEER,AND LET SET FOR 2 MONTHS,AFTERTHAT TIME FRAME REMOVE THE BEANS AND REFIILL THE NOWENFUSED EVERKLEER WITH FRESH BEANS LET IT SET AMOTHER MONTH.....................THATS DONE.





NOW YOU HAVE THE EXTRACT








MAKING THE CELLO IS A MATTER OF TASTE ,WHEN YOU HAVE THE DESIRED TASTE OF THE COMBINATION OF EVERKLEER AND COFFEEBEANS,FINED A LARGE POT,INTO IT PLACE THE EXPRESSO (12 CUPS)THEN THEEXTRACT ADDED SIMPLE SYURP TO TASTE ,EVERTHING I CREATE IS TO TASTE,.



THEN STIR,LET IT ALL SIT IN THE REFRIGERATER OVERNIGHT,HAVE YOUR BOTTLES READY,TASTE THE MIX IS IT GREAT THEN ITS READY TO BOTTLE,IF IT NEEDS ADJUSTMENT NOWS THE TIME ,ADJUST ,TASTE AND BOTTLE.



....IF YOU TOOK HE TME TO READ THIS THREAD THEN YOU'LL UNDERSTAND JUST HOW MUCH WORKING WITH EXTRACTS AND ZEST CAN BE,TO THIS CRAFT WE CALL WINE MAKING






PICS TO FOLLOW?



PLUS .HOW TO MAKE OTHER EXTRACTS AND USED.....STAY TOONED


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## joeswine

CHILEAN BREAKDOWN








I have two wines one is a melbec the other a caremere,from this springs imports,the melbec I know I wanted to deepen its base and so I added raisins up front and French oak,to the other of which I have made before I did nothing,,,,time passes...went to taste the product and felt that the melbec started to gain good legs and that deep taste that a melbec should have ,but being young really need more time to come around (understood),the carmera however was a stark contrast to the latter,no body ,no real character at all yet alone any legs ,what to do?






I started back with the melbec- added another shot of raisins and liquid tannin,will use powder oak later as a layering effect,to the caremere I added white raisins and oak cubes to start the building process,I think that sometimes the juice were buying just is poor in quality to start...this is when you need to think outside the box and regain control of your wine ,no what the chartists should be and attempt to correct a young wine before you have wasted a years Worth of time.






WE video taped a whole segment on zest and extracts last night only to find we had a problem downloading on my computer ,so we are going back the the drawing board ,but I shall over come


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## joeswine

A TON OF VIEWERS ANY QUESTIONS OR THOUGHTS?


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## tonyt

I read all of your posts. I'm here to learn.


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## Wade E

Just wondering why you think the juice isnt that god but keep buying it. Sure you can improve it but starting off with a better product almost always ends up with a better product. When you going to take the leap into buying grapes my friend? I made a couple of buckets and didnt like them at all and feel you are spot on with quality and have a few friends who feel exactly the same way. I feel the kits are better quality then those juice buckets but grapes are the cats a$$! Im wondering how this new MM Sonoma buckets are as they are juice and skins frozen and just need to warm up.


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## Tom

The past year + I been experimenting juice buckets.
Yes I get them.
Yes they have "some" concerns.
Yes Joeswine is also using the "Tool Kit".


and I am experimenting with... Adding Grape Skins (FVW) and adding a lug of grapes to another. Jury still out on all butt, looks much more promising than straight wine juice.


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## Wade E

A couple more lugs there and you wont need the juice bucket.


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## Tom

3 MORE


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## joeswine

I guess the correct reply is ,I do what I do and should really stop and try something different,we came to realize that the chilean had the best overall finish product,but I guess the question is still the same the last three years the wines base has gotten thinner,at least I believe so,thats why I stated early on Im making fewer wines but better quality,besides I do like the tinkerring with them,may be the answer tom is need to find another sorce,what do you think,,need your help also with this video I put together tom,,


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## Tom

There is also that guy in Philly and C&amp;C Vineland


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## joeswine

tepe







I THINK WHAT I'm GOING TO DO IS GET A 6 OF CAL. WHITE ZIN,AND BEFORE STARTING WITHHOLD A QUART OF THE RAW PRODUCT,KILL WHAT EVER YEAST IS IN IT AND SEE HOW IT WORKS OUT FOR A TRUE FPAC,the timing is important for this experiment because I should be introducing the fpac in the third racking ,adding back to the wine after removing most of the Debra,,at least thats the plan also I think when the Italians arrive I'll GO BACK TO PHILLY AND TRY THERES AGAIN THATS WERE i STARTED FROM ,SO i WILL HAVE COME FULL CIRCLE


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## joeswine

pics to follow,i hope


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## joeswine

NEVER AGAIN









MY friend KITO vowed never again to list to his wifes winening,he will never back sweeten a kit again,,Once the sugars in and strong ,its in,,,,live and learn.








On another note my almond extract is starting to do its thing,I wasn't sure I could pull the essence out but its starting to do just that 15 days into the process no oil residue,yet.


----------



## joeswine

BOTTLING TIME






LAST NIGHT MY FRIEND MS.T ARRIVED AND BOTTLED HER PEACH ICE WINE,SHE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE MUCH SWEETER ,I INDICATED TO HER TO LET IT SIT AND SEE WHAT TRANSPIRES.,MY QUESTION IS HOW SHOULD THIS KIT FINISH OUT?






SHE ALSO RACKED HERchardenay ,IT JUST FINISHED MLF,AND I WAS GOING TO PUT A TOUCH OF OAK IN IT ,SHE WANTED ME TO DUPLICATE A COPPOLA STYLE CHARD,WHICH IS VERY GOOD,THE TOP HALF OF THIS WINE WAS DONE JUST LIKE THE LABEL INDICATED,GOOD BODY (FOR A WHITE)MADE A GRAPE PACK LET IT SIT FOR 4 DAYS,MLF,TO SMOOTH IT OUT,NOW A TOUCH OF LIQUID OAK TANNINS,THEN LET IT SIT TO MATURE....SO FAR ITS ON TARGET ,THERE OTHER PORTION OF THE LABEL INDICATED THERE WINE WAS ALSO A BLEND OF CHARD.IN BOTH STAINLESS AND OAK..INTERRESTING...TO BE CONTINUED .......PICS COMING SOON...


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## joeswine

BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU ASK FOR 






last night i got a phone call ,"hello mr. joe " got what you been asking for(ME?)..what are they bob thirty five pounds of costa rica plums...and they were beauties...IM going to turn these babies into palm wine and plume spices wine.....stay tooned ...


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## joeswine

OFF TO WORK WE GO









ok started the costa rican plums today 35lbs of them ,as started above destoned them,cut them into quarters,placed them in a cuisinart (processor) blended them down to a puree,then cooked them in 3 different pots at the same time(NEEDED TO BALANCE OUT THE HEAT LOAD AND HANDLEING TIME ),ADDED SUGAR ABOUT A CUP ANS A HALF TO BRRING OUT THE PLUM,THEN MAGIC HAPPENED, THEY WENT FROM A BEAUTIFUL REDISH HUE TO A VEVID REDINSH PURPLE,and tasted great,the total quantity should have yielded somewhere around 6 gallons,but i added enough water for five gallons, Iwanted a stronger taste in the plum,I can always dilute the sauce after if needed,(not if I can help it),also at this time I added pectin enzyme,1 teaspoon per gal....yeast comes tomorrow........stay tooned


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## joeswine

A YEASTING WE WILL GO











TODAY I added the yeast,RED STAR MONTRACHET.this yeast will add the characteristics i want in a fruit wine,you know not all kits come with the best yeast, sometimes IT pays to investigate the type of wine and amount of aging it will require in selecting the proper yeast characteristics that your profile (wine) should have,this is a fruit wine to be enjoyed in as completed or with in a year,while its still full of that fresh fruit taste and body,although I have fruit wines that are 4/5 years old and still very good ,it all depends on your process yeast and chemicalization proceed to keep the wine stable and healthy.I




T HIS WINE MAY GO SEVERAL DIFFERENT DIRRECTIONS AT ONCE ,WHEN COMPLETED,first basic wine,second cello and last but not least a spiced wine for the holiday...but that's later ...to be continued.


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## joeswine

THE CAPS RUNITH OVER












HOUSTON we have fermentation on all three wines the plum is exceptional,the other two are normal.when I walked down the cellar stairway the fragrance of the plum hit me ,what a order,,,,things are looking good............


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## joeswine

ITS WERE IT LANDED






granted it doesn't belong their but ITS were (when good wines gone bad )landed and there it is,,which has a great follow up on blending..to come, this is another part of what all good wine makers need to know how to do ,either as a learning experience or a need to do experience,to read or not to read your choice...sorry if it bothered you


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## Wade E

I moved this thread to where itn should be. No problem at all.


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## tonyt

joeswine said:


> great follow up on blending..to come,



Looking forward to blending.


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## ibglowin

Don't worry Joe! Keep this thread going!


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## joeswine

THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT PEOPLE...


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## grapeman

We are waiting for more of your tips joe.


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## joeswine

A VERY GOOD NIGHT






WELL tonight was the vineland wine contest and I didn't do badly took first place with my raspberry wine and second place with my white zin/pomegranate,,entered four but these two made it to the finish line..



....remember I had stated back in the beginning of this thread that I would by a kit that sounded interesting and try to duplicate it,well this is one of those,cal/white zin( after 1yr.)and POM /pomegranate juice.. TASTE WAS well rounded and flavorful..not to sweet not to dry..excellent chilled (just a little) one of those party wines my wife can't keep her hands off



it can be fun.


THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX PEOPLE AND KEEP IT FUN


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## joeswine

blending will begin shortly


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## ibglowin

Congrats Joe!


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## grapeman

Way to go Joe!


----------



## paubin

Keep it up Joe ! I'll be waiting patiently for the next installment.

Pete


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## tonyt

Way to go Joe. You deserve it, your wines are great. 

Just to inspire you let me mention that I opened a bottle of wine for my wife's birthday this past weekend that I had blended myself. She loves this proprietary blend from Italian winemaker L'Arco called Rubio. So I saved a two Ltr of Valpolicella Repasso (corvina) until the Rosso Fortussimo (cabernet, Merlot and Sangeovesse) was ready to bottle and blend 4 Ltr of it with the Valp. The sour cherry and oak of the Val combined with the fruit forward of the RF made a fantastic blend. I added a few ounces of simple syrup to cut the brightness and believe I nailed it. The L'Arco Rubio sells for $40.00. 

Okay Joe, teach us how you do it!


----------



## joeswine

Blending and Why i do it






This thread is from me to you and really intended for the home winemaker and strictly speaking this gem could be discussed for a long time,but i would like to say first.is why?






why do we blend ?
whatare the rules ?
who are the players ?
what am i trying to achieve?

In the beginning it was all trial and error,had a wine not much on taste ,or depth but- ab. was good and color was fine...what to do?

what are the rules/ first if a wine has turned out very badly/ex.smells like out soaks or turpentine ..trash it.









second understand the basic structure of the wine andespecially the type your making at the time,ask yourself,what should this wine be in its finished state,IS IT?if you don't know what its characteristic are findout



before moving on






and lastly what do i need to do to correct thiscan blending do the trick?










There are things to consider,say you have a merlo what would you blend it with,as a rule you would blend it with a wine of similar overtones,like a merlo to a cab,,wine of similar charistics in body taste and texture,unto them selves stable wines yet together even stronger,another good example is a super tuscan,combinations of three or even four italian grapes blended to balance each other out with sugar and tannins and aciditY.


but hay I'm not at that level I blend because its fun and opens up a whole different avenues of insight,taking a chardonnay andblending it with a pinot grigiothen tweaking it afterward....now thats wine making.



basic rule know what your wine characteristicsshouldbe,don' try to out think your wine it won't happen,know that most grape wines are filler wines and then THERE'Sthose that stand alone....no the basis structure of the body of wine is key and then there's the most important factor&lt;&lt;&lt;YOUR TASTE BUDS,,,keeping notes is very important something i selddom do



i like to wing it...




I have taken over the last 10years many different dirrections in this passion called wine making but blending fruit wines to grape wines has been my greatestadventure and thats were will start..........








remember the rules



to be continued


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## joeswine

LETS GET STARTED






I GUESS THE BEST REASON I HAD TO BLEND IS WHEN I MADE A RASS BERRY WINE THAT WAS GREAT AND I STARTED TO WIN RIBBONS WITH IT AT THE SAME TIME I HAD A SHAZAR THAT WAS VERY GOOD AND I BEGAN TO THINK WHAT IF I PUT THE TWO TOGETHER HOW WOULD THEY COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER OR WOULD ONE OVER SHADOW THE OTHER,I READ ABOUT PARSONS SQUIRE (REMEMBER I LIKE TO WING IT) WELL THAT WENT RIGHT OVER MY HEAD ANYWAY, ON WARD AND UP WARD..
IF YOU TAKE A LOOK OR EVEN BETTER YET LISTEN TO A COMBONATION RINGS,RASS


BERRY SHIRAZIT JUST SOUNDS GOOD,COFFEE PORT ,GET IT ,WELL THATS HOW IGET MY IDEAS OR IF I SEE A KIT WITH A GREAT SOUNDING NAME ,THATS THE NEXT TARGET,,KIT WINE MANUFACTURES HAVE COME A LONG WAY IN PERFECTING THE KITS,ANYWAY,I GOT SIDE TRACKED,BACK TO HOW TO, AND I WAS QUITE SATISFIED, THE BLENDING BEGAN,REMEMBER THE RULES,THIS WASN'T A BLEND FOR CORRECTION IT WAS A BLEND FOR A NEW PROFILE IN TASTE,KNOWING THE CHARIS TICS OF BOTH WINES AND DECIDING THAT I NEED TO CREATE A BALANCE BETWEEN BOTH . 

SHIRAZ/ FRUIT FORWARD AND BRIGHT WITHGOOD/ ABV. COUNTERPART /RASS BERRY ,SHARP AND RICH IN BOTH BODY AND FLAVOR,KEEPING THE BALANCE WAS GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE,


STEP ONE PREPARED MY WORK STATION WITH MIXING GLASSES AND PEN AND PAPER,ME ANDLUCILLE SETTLED IN TO MAKE A BLEND AFTER MIXING AND BLENDING IN THE GLASS WE FOUND A GOOD BALANCE AND THEN PROCEEDED TO EX PAIN THE VOLUME.......TWO HRS INTO IT WE HAD IT ONE BOTTLES WORTH OR RASS BERRY SHARAZ...NOW TO TRANSLATE THAT INTO QUANTITY THAT WE COULD RELATE TO ..AFTER ALL THE MATH IT BOILED DOWN TO 35% RASS BERRY 65% SHARAZA..THE PARTNERS WERE IN HARMONY WITH EACH OTHER,WHEN YOU TOOK A SIP OF THE WINE THE FIRST ITEM TO TOUCH YOUR BUDS WAS THE RASS BERRY RICH AND DEEPFOLLOWED UP BY THESMOOTH AND FRUIT FORWARD TASTE OF THE SHARAZA..I STILL HAVE SOME BOTTLES OF THESEAND THEY ARE A REMINISCENCE OF WHAT YOU CAN DO WHEN YOU KNOW YOUR PLAYERS AND KNOW WHAT YOUR TRYING TO ACHIEVE....THIS IS A CASE OF TWO GOOD WINES BEING BLENDED..BUT WHAT IF YOU HAD A GOOD WINE AND A NOT SO STRONG WINE.











ENTER MY CHARDONNAY .....NEXT TIME








REMEMBER THE RULES


----------



## joeswine

lost my last post









oh well my chardonnay wasn't great but wasn't bad either but i could tell it was lacking something,so i went on a quest to see what a chardonnay should finish like,low and behold was missing a touch of oak and not much on nose,wire to go from there did the research and came up with sauvignon blanc,which main charistics of herbal and grassy notes was what i needed,to over come my short fall,after buying 6 gallons and processing it the second season of wine making had appeared and it was time to blend all had time to macerate and age ,time to taste test this time i went the opposite way 65% SAVIGNON AND 35%this then gave me the balance and the product i wanted to achieve,I had to take the time to no the players and regroup,.









NOW HOW EVER IF I HAD TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN i WOULD TAKE THE CHARDONNAY and add in the primary french oak at least a cup,in the secondary the zest of 2 grapefruits and powered oak and again one month before bottling zest and oak if need ..that's the difference in then and now,thinking outside the box..





getting to know the partners


----------



## tonyt

joeswine said:


> . . . did the research and came up with sauvignon blanc,which main charistics of herbal and grassy notes was what i needed



After I read this I was scared to continue, I just knew you were going to add a cup of fresh mowed grass. </font>


----------



## joeswine

good refuge,



..ha but it works!


----------



## joeswine

majors and minors






Getting to know you getting to no all about you ..remember that song ...stands to reason getting to no compatible partners in the industry are....








MAJOR............MINO


CAB .............MER
ZINFIMDEL......VIOGNIER
SAGIOVESE....CAB/MERLO
PINO NOIR...GRENACHE..ZIN
CHARD............SEMILLON
SAUVIGNON'S BLANC......
VIOGNIER............ROUSSANNE
RIESLING.......MUSCAT..









THERE ARE MORE I'm SURE BUT KNOWING WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THE DANCE its own tallents.....SEE YOU MONDAY//


----------



## joeswine

Witch way did the berries go






mY FAVORIET PARTNER IN BLENDING IS BERRIES,THEY JUST SEAM TO FIT ,WEATHER IT BE WITH A PINONOR OR A VIOGINER,FRUITED WINES ARE GREAT AND THE MILEAGE THATTHE WINE INDUSTRY IS GETTING OFF THEM IS TREMENDOUS,JUST TAKE A LOOK AT ALL THE BLENDS THAT ARE AT YOUR DESPOSAL,EVERY GREAT COMDONATION UNDER HE SUN YOU CAN IMAGINE IS OUT THERE and youcan make them your self once you learn to master the art of fruit wine making.


Its really not hard just takes time you can't rush the work ,first you need a plan what fruit o I want to make,lets do my favorite raspberry's,how much fresh or frozen?




rule of thumb 5 to 6 lbs. per gallon,sounds like a lot ,not really,what type do I get fresh is always best but make sure you fruit is tasty not just colorful,its the taste you want,second after you get them let them get a little ripper,,.




have all your tools and vessels sanitized chems at the ready ,filtered water,i usually use a 8 gallon fermentation tube for what ever size I'm making ,don't have to worry about boiling over,hay the mostimportant factor yeast what type do we want,for me champagne yeast is the best for fruit ,it gives it good balance,remember even if you think the fruit wine is dry ,there is always residual sugar left,.




ok lets start I like to use a food processor for the primary blending it get the job done quicker and makes the pulp easier to handle once i got it all blended do comes the pectin enzyme,to break down the good stuff,after two days of that I add the I check the sg and see if i need to add sugar or not to get to my starting point usually around 1.010,the reason I want a high start point is because when its all said and done, my fpac will take care of the slightly higher abv level,(that's my way) waters added to balance out the volume),pectins add,yeast is added,oh I for got the benitoite,,to start the clearing process,now its just a matter of time............see you tomorrow..


----------



## rrawhide

thanx Joe


good luck


rrawhide


----------



## joeswine

next step






after fermentation is completed and taking the wine from the fermentation bucket to the carboy ,



stabilize and add chems,fapc will occurs at the third racking and after stabilization,but not finding.


enter the FPAC,the prep is important,either fresh or frozen berries (no steamed ones )this is where the planning and seasonal growing comes in handy,(plan your work) taste the berries if there ready for processing then move ahead,first either hand crush the fruit or slightly pulse in a food processor,you still want the fruit to have some of its membrane in tact,place in a 14 inch sauté pan place the fruit over low heat,once the fruit starts to simmer it will begin to breakdown into liquid,slowly start to stir (taste )is the fruit bitter if so add a pinch of sugar for balance,your going to make a rich rass berry sauce,the heat will do the rest,add little water as needed but keep the consistence heavy,the alcohol will breakdown the rest once you your at your end add a pinch of kmet,after cooling the sauté add it to the wine and top it off with the balance you with held........to be cont.


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## joeswine

TASTE TASTE,AND TASTE








NOW THAT YOU HAVE USED THE 3PS/USE THE / COMES THE 3 TS.TASTE THE WINE IS IT RIGHT?, IS THE FLAVOR BALANCED? IS THE FLAVOR WHAT YOU WANTED TO ACHIEVE?,THEN BOTTLE,NO ADJUSTMENTS ,BOTTLE....










ALL THE BLENDING RULES STILL APPLY EVEN WITH FRUIT WINES.


----------



## joeswine

ALWAYS SOMETHING TO DO








THIS WEEK END I BOTTLED MY RIESLING GREAT COLOR AND SMOOTH,ALSO BOTTLED MY RASPBERRY CABERNET SAOVGION,NOT BAD COULD HAVE USED MORE BERRY BUT NOT BAD.


STARTED A ITALIAN SOAVE AND A CAL. CHARDONNAY,WITH THE SOAVE USED LAVIN 1112 WITH THE CHARD 1118,BOTH STARTED OUT AT 1.09SG..


RACKED THE PLUM AND THE PEACH,THEN THE LONG CLEAN UP.YOU KNOW HOW THAT GOES.


----------



## joeswine

GOING BACK WARDS TO MOVE FORWARD








if YOU REMEMBER IN THE VERY BEGINNING OT THIS THREAD WE TALKED ABOUT THE VALUE OF ADDING AND KNOWING HOW TO CREATE FPACS,ZESTING AND EXTRACTS,THEY ARE IMPORTANT CHARACTERS IN THIS PLAY WE CALL WINE MAKING,ALSO THE BLENDING PARTNER AND WHAT EACH BRINGS TO THE MIX,I GUESS WHAT IT ALL COMES DOWN TO IS THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE.




WHAT IS THE STRUCTURE OF WINE AND HOW DO WE CREATE BODY AS WELL AS AS TASTE AND IF WERE LUCKY GOOD NOISE,WHAT EXACTLY DOES TANNINS BRING TOTHE THE DANCE? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEENA WINE BEING WHAT WE CALL DRY AND TANNIN PUCKER ARE THEY THE SAME THING? 


THIS IS A GOOD SUBJECT THAT I WILL ATTEMPT TO REVIEW AND HOPE THAT IT WILL HELP ME HELP OTHERS UNDERSTAND THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE..FROM A CELLAR DWELLERS PROSPECTIVE


----------



## joeswine

WADE WHAT IS THIS MESS?


----------



## grapeman

Joe, I moved that off the forum. We are ever vigilant of these sort of things you saw and work hard to get rid of them before others see them. It is but one of 10 of them I got rid of this AM and at first did not see it because you posted after it so it wasn't on the radar screen. Sorry, and if others want to know what I am talking about it is Internet Bots that are trying to promote things, this time it was escort services.


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## tonyt

yea, I see them all the time (the robo posts not the Winnipeg Escorts). They show up in the email for those of us that get immediate email notifications before you guys have a chance to delete them. that must be a real pain in your a$$. One of the things y'all do behind the scene for us. Thanks to all you moderators.


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## joeswine

no problem with me there I hadn't a clue what it was?


----------



## joeswine

the body and structure of wine as i see it from a cellar dwellars point of view.


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## Tom

What view do you have?


----------



## joeswine

what is the body and how do we get structure in the body of the wine????









well lets first build a structure together.
will start with the foundation in our case its the alcohol ,for with out it why would we want to drink the wine,but its not enough to have the spirits in the bottle or vat it needs to be tamed and balanced.
next we have the walls solid and load barring for the wine makers its the tannins that gives the wine its body,do you know what tannins are ? we'll get into that later,there are more to tannins than meets the eye.




we have the foundation and now the walls we now need the roof in our case its the acidity that bridges the two togetherfor without the acidity you loose the bite and the structure of the wine




all's well with in our dwelling at this point now we need to balance out the alcohol,tannins and acidity to create the balance in our wine and begin to develop the wine .









do you know how many acids were dealing with the good ones and the not so good ones? this can be tricky..????



and finally how can we create more body and structure in the wine if the wine did somethink unexpected in the process...


we'll go slowly,theres a lot to it


----------



## joeswine

Tanins are a group of phenol compounds found in plants. Which create a group of chemicals called polyphenols . These polyphenols are, for the most part soluble in water.

There are two types of tannins , hydrolyzable and condensed tannins.

Tannic acid is a particular type of hydrological tannin commonly found in the bark and wood of Oaks and other plants. It is used commercially in tanning leather and in certain drying processes. So, what type of tannin 
comesfrom the barkof Oaksand other plantshydrolyzable tannins.


Condensedtanninsare often found in other plant sources such as Tea,pomegranatesand grape seedsin grape skins.Hydrogenatedtanninsand condensed tanninsare the two main categoriesof tensdelineated.




Wellthat was a mouthful 
in other wordstannins produce the mouthfeel to enhance the body and the structure of the wine, , in two different formats.. In general, the reason why red wines have tannins and white ones usually does not is because red wine is made from red or purple grapes that are fermented with the seeds, skins and often pieces of the stems, which in turn give red wine it condensed tannins. Why white on the other hand, is usually fermented with just crushedjuice from the white grapes or seedless red grapes.

Tannins are very important to a red wine. They provide color, flavor and structure to a wine as well as acting as a preservative. Often, wines with heavy tannins are meant to be aged or seller cellared for some time. As the wine is cellared, the tannins tend to mellow out while enhancing the wines body and flavor.

Tannins in red wine will have some acid property, cause you most likely have hydrogenated tannins and their the major effect of tannins in your red one is the astringent or dry, puckering effect. The small amount of tannic acid and maybe present due to barreling or corking will not be significant.

The amount of tannins in red wine will enhance the taste of different foods such as Cabernet Sauvignon or Shiraz have more tannin contents than others such as Pinot Noir or Merlot. This is how some winestaste better with some foods, we call them parrings .

So as a cellar dweller this is how I view tannins in a wine, that's why I consider them the walls of thewine they are are the pillars on which the wine is matured and gains its structure.


----------



## joeswine

Moved back to go forward







remember what I had I had said in the beginning of this thread about layering tannins by first using chips or wood spirals and then dust, remember that, well that was my way of building structure into the wine , as well as adding depth.

Remember I also stated that by doing this unique succession of layers you will achieve the end result, that is the science of oaking, my way. It takes thinking outside the box just a little to make a difference, if you give this a try I think you'll see that it works.


----------



## joeswine

Now that we have now foundation of the wine which is alcohol, and the walls which are the tannins, now we need to bind them together and to that end we use acids.

ACIDS, the four predominant types of acids found in wine are as follows.

TarTARIC, MaliC, lactic and citrus acids these acids add what is called/ structure and help shape the flavors and aftertaste(also called /finish). Acids also act as a preservative. But there is another acid if only in trace amounts contribute to the sweet/sour vinegar taste. Too much ACETIC in the wine is not a good thing and can often be detected in super Duper cheaptable wines.

Next I will try to break down which each of these acids mean to you and me as a cellar dweller.


----------



## joeswine

I would like to state that the new format is clean...nice job


----------



## joeswine

layering of components,remember that ,using grapefruit zest or citrus zest picks up the flavor as a additive to wine,this helpsto acidify,create balance in the wine ,a binder ,remember that in the beginning of when good wines gone bad,see how the layering of oaks and zest can bind a wine together and form the structure of the wine ,it all fits,I might seam a little unorthodox but it all works for a cellar dweller and the small quantities we make










NOW WE CAN MOVE ON ,AND SHOWWHAT ACIDS DO FOR US IN THE BULILDING OF THE STRUCTURE OF WINE


----------



## joeswine

ANY QUESTIONS?


----------



## joeswine

HOW DOES YOUR WINE TASTE OR FINISH,WHEN WE BUILD A WINE ONE OF THE PRIMARY BUILDING BLOCKS IS ACIDS,MALIC.LACTIC ,CITRUS,ACETIC,ASCORBIC,AND BUTYRIC,WHO WOULD OF BELIEVED THAT THESE COMPOUNDS INFLUENCE TO FLAVOR ,COLOR AND FINISH OF WINE YET THEY ALSO HELP PREVENT OXIDATION AND SPOILAGE ANY OR ALL THE ABOVE CAN BE IN SOME SMALL AMOUNT DIRECTLY ORindirectly RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FINAL FINISH OF THE WINE .i LIKE THAT WORD FINISH,BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO US AS WINE MAKERS ?
THE FINAL OUTCOME, THE TASTE AT THE END ,SWEET, SOUR ,THIN FLABBY,TART,BITE andsmooth these areTHE ATTRIBUTES THAT ACIDS CONTRIBUTE TO THE FINISH OF THE WINE.


TO BE CONTINUED.........


----------



## joeswine

tartaric acid, one of the strong men of acids ,the most important in wine making for it helps control chemical stability of the wines and its color and in influencing the taste of the finish(finish).




like that word and what it means to you and me is the end result ,the finish taste ,smooth,bitter,sweet ,sour,flabby etc;the overall wines finish along with malic acid,and a lesser extent citric acid,are the primary acids we us or add to the wines structure.





if i stated this before its good to go over this once again,kit wines and ,fresh juice ,
usuallywhen we get them are already balanced out for us ,so, not that much attention is payed to the acid balance which is between 2.9/3.9 depending on the type of wine,however if your not care full with you sanitations some of the others not so good ones come into play.








have you ever heard of tartaric crystals,they look like broken shards of Glass or diamonds in the bottom of the bottle ,extremetemperature change (cold) while is suspension allow this crystis to form anddrop out of suspension,very cool looking buta bit hard to explain to your guess that there not harmful.




tartaric acid


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## joeswine

Malic acid, along with tartaric acid, is one of the principal organic acids found in wine grapes. It is found in nearly every fruit and berry plant but it's most often associated with green apples from which flavor it most relatively projects in wine. Its name comes from the Latin malum meaning Apple. In the grapevine, malic acid is involved in several processes which are essential for the health and stability of the vine as the vine progresses through the ripening stages, malic acid is metabolized in the process of respiration and by harvest its concentration could very low. When all the malic acid is used up in the grape is considered overripe or senescent. Winemakers must compensate for this loss and manually adding acid at the winery in a process known as the certification or MLf. In this process bacteria convert the stronger malic acid into the softer lactic acid. The bacteria behind this process can be found naturally in the winery, in group urges which make oak wine barrels that will house a population of bacteria or they can be manually introduced by the winemaker with a cultured specimen. For someone's, the conversion malic into lactic acid can be beneficial especially if the winery has excessive levels of malic acid. For other wines, such aschenin blanc,Riesling, it producesoff flavors in wine such as a buttery smell that would not be appealing for a variety. In general, red wines are most often put through MLS than whites which means that there is a higher likelihood of finding malic acid in white wines though there are exceptions such as Oak Chardonnay which is often put through MLS.


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## joeswine

malic acid, so how do we use this to benefit ourselves or do we , you shouldn't use itwith kits, we can use it fresh juice,but first ask ,what type of finish do we want to have some call it buttery, somecall it smooth, malic or MLf is not for every wine and can be quite expensive to do. So let's go back and review the partners, remember I talked about howwines partner up with food they do that because of the mouthfeel ,beinging structured by the acids involved.






always remember the rules


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## joeswine

On the other hand, used properly malic acid and its properties be very complementary to the wine body knowing when and how to use it is the key there are people on this form who use it all the time such astepe or Tom they know how and when to use it in and in the correct proportions, it is part of the art of wine making.


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## joeswine

Well it's been a little while since we talked and I've been very busy with my heating and air-conditioning business hadn't had tomuch time, So before we get back to the acids like to bringthis Friday and events .
*Last Friday my friend came over to do his wine ,he's making a Chardonnay we did it with raisins and mlf,we also added asmall amount of liquid Oak. Then I began the process of racking the two different blueberries and my awesome melbec, along with my carmare plusa peach and plum blend, to my SOAVE I added a1/8th teaspoon of acid blendlikewise to myChardonnaywith raisins while Suave was done straight up. Although all winesare healthy at this point. But you really have to try adding zest to a wine after primary it really adds a quality of dePth no matter what type of wine.*


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## ibglowin

OK Joe your not going to get me to ever try and add a "quality of death" to any of my wines I promise you!










joeswine said:


> *But you really have to try adding zest to a wine after primary it really adds a quality of death no matter what type of wine.*


----------



## joeswine

I have been tring to use dragon and its fun I went in this morning and corrected that ,still need to proof read a lot but what a cool tool,but still you need to try



I thought for a while I was all alone out here.Thanks for the reply..............


----------



## fiat84

joeswine said:


> *But you really have to try adding zest to a wine after primary it really adds a quality of dePth no matter what type of wine.*



Which citrus zests work best in sweet German white 10L kits and how much zest should be added?


----------



## joeswine

Grapefruit zest would work best in your German styles simply because , they will give you the best edge in the finished product, I know i I've tried these before, grapefruit zest seems to provide the best accent or finishing note for most white wines. That's not to say you can't try other ones such as a citrus blend or orange or any combination of, don't be afraid to experiment, that's the fun of wine making.



As to how much to use depends on your volume of wine let's say you have a five or 6 gallon kit I would use two grapefruit to start with, zest and add to the secondary or before clearing will be most effective, the idea behind this is to bring up the background, a tad more acid, which will give you a little more bite, perfect.


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## joeswine

remember by using the zest method your influencing the flavor and adding a small dose of citrus acid for the bite...



win win ,can't lose


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## joeswine

acetic acid


acetic acid is a two-part carbon organic acid in wine during or after the fermentation. It is the most volatile. Primary acid associated with wine and is responsible for the sour tastein vinegar, during fermentation, activity by yeast cells naturally produces a small amount of acetic acid, if the wine is exposed to oxygen, acebacter bacteria convert ethanol into acetic acid, this process is known as acetificaion, the primary process behind wine degradation into vinegar . excessive amount of these acetic acid is also considered a wine fault . a tasters sensitivity to acetic acid quite keen, most people can detect excessive amounts of excess .\
I stated in the beginning this was going to be a long chapter and verse on acids but how many of you out there have tasted that sour off note somewhat vinegary,test, ( bottle of wine on the shelf too long you have a vinegary taste , here's a little test, open up a bottle of red wine , taste the the bottle ,set it on the counter for a week , then taste, breakdown, taste again . I would bet you're going to taste vinegar or at least the beginning taste of vinegar that it set on the counter another week this time with a cork in it , opened up later and tell me if you don't have vinegar . is not much more to acids we completed the building the body and structure of wine ,are some small acids that take part , will get into them only in brief. I


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## joeswine

Happy turkey day everyone see you all Monday


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## joeswine




----------



## Scott

Not alot to say today?


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## joeswine

lost the post and had no time to go back and replay..but i will continue threads soon.......................


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## ibglowin

Was wondering what happened there!


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## joeswine

WELL HOPEFULLY THIS WILL STICK,






WHEN GOOD WINES GONE BAD WAS FIRST WRITTEN IT WAS TO ASK A QUESTION WHAT IF ,NOW i KNOW THIS HAS NEVER HAPPEN TO YOU YET ALONE ME BUT WHAT IF YOU DID MAKE A WINE THAT WAS A LITTLE OFF? I KNOW THATS JUST AN OFF CHANCE BUT WHAT IF? 



DO YOU HAVE A FIX IT KIT AT THE READY?





HERE'S WHATS IN MINE,RED AND WHITE GRAPE CONCENTRATES,FRENCH OAK CHIPS,POWDERED OAK FOR LAYERING,EXTRACTS=ORANGE,LEMON,CITRUS,CINNAMON AND COFFEE,ACID BLEND,SUPPER KLEER,NITROGEN,RAISINS(BLACK AND WHITE) FROM WHOLE FOODS PURE CABERNET JUICE VACUME PACK




I KNOW THATS A BIT EXTREME BUT THATS ME),KMET AND SORBATE......



WHATS IN YOURS?????????


----------



## ibglowin

Superkleer!
Oak chips, beans, sawdust, both Hungarian and French Med toast and Med+ toast
Tartaric acid, Sulfite powder, Sorbate
Lots of yeast strains other than EC-1118, DAP, GoFerm, Fermaid-K, Optimalo Plus, extra MLB
Lots of chemicals for testing TA, SO2
Chromatography Kit for testing MLF
Argon gas
And of course lots of wine on the racks that could be used for topping off or blending.


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## joeswine

see there's always something else,,getting old can"t remember it all



is there aNything else???????????????????????






THATS ONE REPLY ,WHAT DO YOU SAY???????????


----------



## Scott

Ifthe wine isa little off, I just keep it and drink myself!






I'd say Superkleer is one of the top items to keep on hand, although can't think of anything that was an emergency to have that couldn't wait a day or so. 


Well except band-aids, right Appleman


----------



## joeswine

It doesn't have to be an emergency just supplies on hand in case you have to take corrective measures or adjustment, whatever you choose go, then and now. Also most of the stuff on hand should be things that you would use all the time in wine making. 


Super kleer, is a good element to have on hand.

what say the rest of you??????</font>


----------



## NewBWiner

I'm new to wine making and have only done a few standard kits. I loved my sweet sherry batch andhope to have some bottles left when itis properly aged....startedtasting/drink after only 3 weeks old......6 weeks now and l love the taste.......anyway.....I thought Iwould make some wine frompineapple juice. I read a dozen or so receipes and made a 3 gallon batch. At time of clearing i used Super Kleer and it started clearingright away and now it is only 3 days and looks crystal clear! All the receipes I read talked about natural clearing and no chemical clearing agents....6 months to clear...rack..clear..rack clear..etc.Is this wine going to taste like crap now? I know I have to back sweeten it. Is there anything you suggest to add for flavoring? I used pineapple juice/sugar/water/acid blend/tannin/pectic enzyme/yeast nutrient/LALVIN K1V-1116 yeast for the must. A little sweet to start ....SG 1.1 ended with .990 ....yea probably a little too alcholic...huh?


----------



## joeswine

</font>


Hi and welcome to the form, good to hear from you, superkleer should never impede the taste just the clarity, that's was designed for. As far as the flavor enhancement if you feel you need more than I would go to the grocery store and pick up a can of frozen pineapple juice defrosted and places in thewine, allow it to settle outa few days starting the set a few days at more superkleer and that should be that you should not even have the backing.... Try that Ithink it will work, if you could take the time to read good wines gone bad, it will give you the basis of one making corrections at least in theory when lease mine on how to take corrective action what to look for as you go along, let me know how you make out please do stay in touch I get lonely out here, yours JP</font>


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## joeswine

What's been a while as he did any real discussion so I thought I would go back over good wines gone bad ,going back to the fix-it column.

Let's start with the subject that seems to be ongoing * stuck fermentation, what is stuck fermentation exactly, it's a condition in which yeast has not started becoming active or has prematurely cease converting sugar in the grape juice INTO alcohol, this is a very common occurrence. its a result of one or more of the following factors if using grapes ,*
*moldy, sugar concentration is too high , alcohol content is too high, fermentation temperature**isToo low or too high , free sulfur dioxide content is too high or lacks nutrients . 

A good alcohol fermentation requires a favorable environment for yeast to become active to multiple. otherwise, fermentation may fail to start or may stop before completion , resulting in a sweet,low alcohol wine, stuck fermentation is easily detected by measuring the sugar content with a hydrometer. The specific gravity or SG of a dry wine should be 0.995 or lower . it is above 1.000 and remains unchanged for more than a day , in your fermentation is most likely stuck . **Choosing the right yeast for your wine is especially important for specific strains have characteristics that will with stand high alcohol wine, and will add the correct characteristics that you're looking for, remember the part when we talked about partners- if not go back and read it, for the right yeast is critical to develop the wine, nutrients are also key in developing the bodyand the structure of wine, there are times you need to help the yeast by providing additional nutrients that the yeast needs to survive and not go into stuckfermentation , if the conditions call for but then this is where you ,come in.* 

to be continued.* To be continued*


----------



## joeswine




----------



## joeswine

Still learning to use Dragon it's a great word tool but it does haveits drawbacksor I'm not sure sometimes I say what I mean but it prints when it thinks crazy.




I know I have experienced stuck fermentation more than one occasion ,it seems to be the natural order of things in winemaking that something that we have to be very aware about I have some wine in the basement at the moment that is long flavor and short on alcohol . 




There are ways that I can correct this problem what is to try and start the fermentation by warming up the wine adding yeast, yeast nutrient, testing the SG and starting over this should not impair the flavor of the wine at this point . however if I wanted to cheat I could use a little Everclear 1 ounce at a time just to give it bite. I Know in some cases if you're not careful this method can result in a good brandy ? how many of you have run into this problem? I would say quite a few from the threads that I have read on various forums, I think I will try warming the wine with my heater strip and try two restart fermentation . I know from reading this thread and other forms that some people have a problem meeting a hydrometer, in some cases that's true, knowing how to use one is a very important tool in your toolbox - just asked it's fun we learned together .


----------



## joeswine

joeswine said:


> Still learning to use Dragon it's a great word tool but it does haveits drawbacksor I'm not sure sometimes I say what I mean but it prints when it thinks crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know I have experienced stuck fermentation more than one occasion ,it seems to be the natural order of things in winemaking that something that we have to be very aware about I have some wine in the basement at the moment that is long flavor and short on alcohol .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are ways that I can correct this problem what is to try and start the fermentation by warming up the wine adding yeast, yeast nutrient, testing the SG and starting over this should not impair the flavor of the wine at this point . however if I wanted to cheat I could use a little Everclear 1 ounce at a time just to give it bite. I Know in some cases if you're not careful this method can result in a good brandy ? how many of you have run into this problem? I would say quite a few from the threads that I have read on various forums, I think I will try warming the wine with my heater strip and try two restart fermentation . I know from reading this thread and other forms that some people have a problem reading a hydrometer, in some cases that's true, knowing how to use one is a very important tool in your toolbox - just asked it's fun we learned together .


----------



## joeswine

*Let's talk yeast** There is a world of information out there, all's you have to know is what your looking for an the Internet will direct you to it, yeast and all types of yeast go on to lalvins website you find a great chart on the chart you will find five differenttypes of yeast , take for example dry whites, BC â€“ 1118 has very good characteristics ICV D â€“ 47 has thebetter characteristics for whites if you're aging reds that young RC 212 is good to use as opposed to K-1 B â€“ 1116 Saturday the chart stock fermentation will will this help you out. Check across their EC â€“ 1118 is the highest alcohol content you'll notice that the late harvest it's also very good.

** There is a whole world of yeast manufacturers out there from dry yeast to liquid yeast it all depends on your research the type of wine finish you wish to achieve and the time you want wine to age or set up or if it's young the same protocol. So what you need to do is once again know your partners, which wine types are best with which types of yeast, almost like blending, which partners go together best or don't .talk you later..PLAN,THINK ,AND DO....THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX
*


----------



## joeswine

Hi there, let's talk about cloudiness in wine thiscould result from improper racking, when sentiment is disturbed and allowed to go into suspension, or from improper clarification, such as incomplete finding or filtration with to course a pad, or a high fruit pectin content. Cloudiness may reappear in a perfectly clear and brilliant-color wine during aging. This will happen in one's that have not improperly stabilized.

To reduce cloudiness, let the settlement settle to the bottom of the container and then carefully wrapped the wine. The wine can be clarified by finding. Using your favorite fining agent, followed by another racking. Always allow a minimum of two or three weeks before racking. Occasionally, why can be filtered, particularly if cloudiness process.

Pectin may be another source of problems for me making wine from grapes fruits .a clear wine with type-content make cause the wine to turn cloudy in the bottle. Pectin enzymes can be used to reduce excessive pectin and particular cloudiness problems. Be sure to dissolve powder in cool water before adding it to the juice. We have all experienced the cloudiness in the wine we've all experienced tartaric crystals also and that's a will talk about next .g*ood night*


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## joeswine

from Lucille and me merry christmas



to 
all,be safe out their........



</font>


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## tonyt

You too Joe, you're the best!


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## ibglowin

Have a very merry one Joe!


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## joeswine

It's a new year time to start when good wines gone bad for 2012...............................................stay tuned</font>


----------



## joeswine

So what started* with when good wines gone bad, have you evermade a wine and smelled something that smelled like rotten eggs I have smelled that burnt sulfur smell, will welcome aboard let's talk about .

The dreaded, common sulfur smell found in problem wines is a result of over-processing with sulfite. It is easily detected by its distinctive pungent burnt -match smell, and, at high concentrations, it can be overpowering. If the sulfur smell is detected and fermenter, aerate the wine by successive vigorous raccoons and you can no longer detected. If detected in the bottle, aerate the wine by decanting it into another container, and repeat until you no longer to detect the smell. In both cases, but the wine splash at the bottom of the container. On the other hand and run a smell wines is caused by the presence of hydrogen sulfide, and may be cured depending on its intensity. if not treated early H2 S will react in the wine form first into mercaptains, followed by disulfides-both are foul-smelling compounds that cause wines of spoil. The presence of either compound is particularly reversible winemaking. Unless you have a wide chemical knowledge in the laboratory to correct the problem some specific type to grapes are susceptible to this problem prong aging the wine in the presence of sulfur deposits arising from burnt sulfur during barrel maintenance in the bowels will also cause H2 to form, your cases, aerate the wine bluntly by wracking against the wall container to reduce the amount of each to S. This has the drawback of accelerating oxidation and has to be assessed against the severity of the H2 S problem. See is not as easy as it looks and can get quite complicated when you're dealing with fresh grapes, most of us deal with wine in the former first use your we should have a problem unless we created ourselves, the fresh usually it is supposedly balanced out with the proper amount of acid, that these are not the only items that can spoil one.

To be continued*


----------



## ibglowin

Welcome back Joe! Good to see you back in the new year!


----------



## joeswine

*Thank you, this is a great place to start the new year that you think with the subject that I love winemaking even though I don't drink as much as I used to, my wife does and all her friends take part in winemaking so you can't beat that, combination.

This year we going to forward and backward at the same time because a lot of what I do and a lot of what I read is happening in the wine industry, so we need to take a look at the beginning of this thread and then combine that with threads in the future notice that we went through sulfur smells rotten egg smells these are things that we deal with everyday some negotiable and some are not, we talked about tartaric crystals cloudiness of wine testing spoilage acidity and pH stuck fermentation, MLS, we talked about tools in the toolbox do the job with we touched on yeast, zesting, extracts and simple syrup, that is a wide range of subject matter, with still a world of information out there, alternatively I will try not to bore you..................................... stay tuned.*


----------



## joeswine

Remember the partners




Remember way back when We talked about blending Which one is better blended with others And which ones weren't,While then the question would be Which wines age Better with one another There are a number of aspects to consider when determining which are the best ones to age,The most important of which are Grape variety Or wine style,Vintage characteristics and And the nature of the wine kit((Concentrate,Partial Concentrator juice kit).










A wines Age-ability Is directly related to its natural properties a wine high in acid, Tannins The phenols Will stand up to extended aging better No one is lowing these,components acidity Is the most critical component.Acid In wine Act as a preservative Provide something for the other harsh components,By tenant, To bind toTo and fall out from the Aging wine.AcidityIs the one properly sharedByAge-where the RedsAnd whites.Walli wines are ComparablyLow intendsAnd the phenols Responsible for the color,There are still many white wine varieties and styles that can aging Extensively.









Speaking very generally,Reds are moreage worthy then whites because they contain much higher levels Of the tannins and phenols But ourAlso responsible for preserving wine.However,There are a number of sturdyWhitesThat can beOut agedThe moreFeebleRed varieties.Cabernet Sauvignon,Shirah,nebbiolo,sangiovese And tempranillo Our Reds varieties that age well.Grenache,Most Merlot And Pinot Noirs,ZinfandelAndAnyBlush style winesDo not generally age well.




Someone blending your partnersYou should know a little bit about aging your partners,Will continueTomorrow ...........Good night





















.


----------



## joeswine

Let's continue, these varieties could age well extensively if they had high levels of acidity. That's why it's good to question on the forum, who has made the respective kit you're looking to buy .Riesling, chenin Blanc, some Pinot Gris's and ice wines have the makeup to age extensively, while..frascita,sauvignon blanc and muscat do not .these examples are guidelines to force you to examine other relevant issues in the age ability of a given wine. You can look at the wine kit and ask yourself or others you know where the base product was made, when it was made what types of grapes are end-use and trying to make in most cases you'll find no answers is your wine kit from one region or area is a blend of more than one vintage year? Or the conditions of the growing season? For example, if you are buying most expensive chianti kit your merchant offers, you really should be it really should besangiovese grown in the The zone Tuscany ,as bona fide as as the commercial equivalent after all, this is what you're paying for. In short, gather as much information as possible about any kit you are considering buying. There are enough quality wine kits for you to choose from. And finally you have to consider the relative virtues of various wine kit styles. You buy for the four-week concentrate kit ,or do you buy for the long-term pure juice kit or something in the middle ?close you get to using freshly harvested grapes, the better the results of the finished wine.... To be continued


----------



## joeswine

*Knowing your partners, knowing what wine grapes, fresh juice and or a combination of all the above, is critical throughout the blending process, and the aging process for without a good blending partner. Above will not happen, however another factor comes into play filtering and bottling .




** Fining and filtering ,aging can be accelerated by the removal of solids of a young wine. More solids removed, the shorter the successful aging,. Of your wine. solids help to bring out the labors of your aged wine .some of the suspended solids and your concentrates will be removed during the fining and filtering process. Follow the recipe directions, I would recommend that you use in manually powered filter good when you filter, since you can control the pressure the speed at which the wine is pressed through the filter pads .motorized machines filter quickly and strip away more than needs to be removed, taking the stuffing out of the wine. Other winemakers may disagree. you may find a comfortable middle ground by using a motorized filtration unit that offers multi-speeds, allowing you to filter your wine slowly or quickly. The advantage of motorized unit is that flow of the wine is steady. Remember that anyone kit that requires fining or filtering which is just about every kit on the market has been formulated to endure, and the wine will eventually blossomed, showing its every charm. Always use a little patience patience patients patients patients patients patients and patients. 

S consider that



*


----------



## joeswine

A LITTLE OFF THE SUBJECT









Ever had a real good day in the wine cellar,well that's how it was for me,Sunday,started off with trying to re energize my fruit wines ,blueberry ,plum peach and peach ,,good fruit taste but not enough adv.,so I add yeast energizer and red star yeast to see if I could unstuck the stuck fermentation,temp,is going to be a problem,at 62/degrees but the yeast is active to 45degress,will see what happens,started 3 WE KITS ,PEISPOSTER,RESILING AND PINO GRIS,LIKE THE LESS EXPENSIVE WHITE KITS BECAUSE I CAN PLAY WITH THEM,if you follow me you know wheat I mean,finial phase of station on 24 bottles (entered the dishwasher) and started 24 more,this is a never ending senerio,re-racked both of my Italians ,there very clear and still have good aroma...like I stated a GOOD DAY


----------



## grapeman

Sounds like a good day Joe!


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## joeswine

IT SURELY WAS


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## joeswine

Food and wine pairing 
The whole idea behind matching particularwine to certain food is to try to achieve synergy from the interaction of the flavors. You can think of wine is a super-condiment when you slathering mustard on your hotdog or squeeze lime on your ceviche, is because the to taste great together. Not many people eat mustard by itself, or suck on plain limes, but these flavors produce a nice synergy combined with of the food. Wine does this as well, but with the added bonus that it's wine. 
Will matching food and wine, the idea is to get the most of each part of the meal. you probably don't want to serve and old -finds Zinfandel with mac &amp; cheese anymore then you would serve a deliciously sweet with Carolina barbecue . in the first case, Zinfandel will completely overwhelmed the relatively light flavor of apostate chatter . in the second, intensity Smokey barbecue would shore up the recent . making a case we can then. the idea is to match the intensity of the food with the power of wine. 

At the big-boy at the end of the block for white wines resides Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc. For the red wines its the big Italiansbarolo,amarone, the Cabernet and the Bordeaux varieties, Zinfandel and Shiraz .these will usually stand up the most flavorful and intense foods, such as barbecued ribs, wild game, and strong cheeses............ Of Italian descent I can tell you I like my cheeses, my meats,and my sauces,with a glass of wine on the side it hist the spot. I could also tell you then it's a definite point that when the food and the wine clash somebody loses---- to be continued.............................................


----------



## joeswine

Hey, hope you don't find is too boring but I love food and I love wine also look a good beer now know there's something to be said for good beer and I know out there is plenty of BREWMASTERS. Let's continue.



. In the middle ground of medium-intense wines, white styles include, GEWURZTAMINER, Chardonnay blends some SAUVIGNON BLANC. Mdium Reds include.. Chiant, Rojas, Merlo and VALPOLICELLA.

Lightweights include, Pinot Gris's also called Pinot Grigio, dry Riesling, soave, as well as othersin California CHALBLIS-style wines. Let Reds go from the blush wines, to Beausoleil, to Pinot Noir, and finally, California BURGUNDY.

A good rule of thumb is that like to is best served with light and often white wines....................................................... to be continued


----------



## joeswine

Wine pairing, a good rule of fun is that light food is best served with light and often white wines. For example, a poached, skinless chicken breast and steam carrots will probably go well with a nice Italian soave. That way, the delicate flavor of the food won't get pushed around. Heavy then say huge bowl of beef stew a big slab of prime rib garlic mashed potatoes and mushrooms won't over power a big flavorful Cabernet or Zinfandel. So pick, red wines to pair with the heartier foods.. Will have to decide we're cut off is for light or for heavy by keeping in mind will help you pick an appropriate wine.



Acid* and sweetness

The word acid has a negative connotation in daily life, as those sour. This is too bad. While there's nothing wrong with sweet, sour is really under rated. If-slavers, and Luntz and their effect on the power acid in wine has a couple of effects. It can either highlight or cut through sweetness and it can help cleanse the palate a strongly flavored dishes, ready you for anothersip. Acid also helps the wines they stand up acidic flavors. It really slinky-dry savignon blanc with taste wonderful with a seafood dish laced with fresh lime juice. While a soft off dry Riesling which case flabby and weak.

This also works backwards, if you're serving a fresh, jersey peach with the plenty-dry savignon blanc, one will probably taste about the same as looking a battery terminal on your car. And that could be very sour, on the other hand, a delicate, all dry Riesling-, will highlight the sweetness of the fruit and seem perfectly down.



We think so far---to be continued think about the balance between food and wine think about when you letting Mexican food rehab barbecued spareribs we have a nice dish pasta or lobster tail, or a nice seafood dish broiled to perfection, which one would you like choose to drink, to complement the taste of the food and the taste of the wine.

*



* To be continued................................

*


----------



## TomK-B

Joe, I love this thread that you keep running. I've read every post. And now that you're on the topic of pairing wine and food, I have a question I hope you'll answer for me. And I also want to thank you for pointing out that we should be using rules of fun when making these decisions. That makes perfectly good sense to me.
So, here's my question. I have a batch of RJS EP Amarone in bulk aging right now. It should be ready to drink in a year or two. What foods would be good to pair with it when it's ready to drink?


----------



## joeswine

Hi there, and thanks for the reply, amarone is my opinion is the king of Italian wines, it's the type of wine that can stand on its own and doesn't need any other enhancement, if you can buy yourself a bottle of amarone try itfirst, then you'll understand ,or with Italian cheeses and salamis or Parma ham and some dried cured olives and large pitted Greek olives so mozzarella cheese a fine loaf of crusty Italian bread, that's all you need, it's a feast unto itself, amarone by itself is of real taste treat it surpasses Brunello and any super Tuscan out there ,this particular type of wine amarone will overpower most pastas that's why it is a standalone wine, you should drink amarone at room temperature that's when it's at its best and drink it when you're at peace with yourself, to me it's a very satisfying wine, it's the best Italians have to offer bar none, at least that's my opinion.


Thank you for reading this thread I hope it is enlightened in some facet this is a part of it didn't understand sometimes I talk faster then I type, is just my way what did you think about the zesting , do you think you would try?


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## joeswine

REMEMBER.,WAY BACK WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT BLENDING DIFFERENT WINES TO CREATE A FLAVOR PROFILE,WELL MATCHING FOOD AND



WINE IS ALMOST THE SAME,THE BEST TASTING WINE WILL ENHANCE A GREAT MEAL,SEE THE PARTNERSHIP?


----------



## joeswine

joeswine said:


> REMEMBER.,WAY BACK WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT BLENDING DIFFERENT WINES TO CREATE A FLAVOR PROFILE,WELL MATCHING FOOD AND
> 
> 
> 
> WINE IS ALMOST THE SAME,THE BEST TASTING WINE WILL ENHANCE A GREAT MEAL,SEE THE PARTNERSHIP?


THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX


----------



## joeswine

LAST NIGHT,was a very productive one for the wine cellar,first we did a wine tasting on the following,blueberry wine,peach wine (TWO DIFFERENT BATCHES),plum/peach ,melbec and caramere.\





FINDINGS.....BLUEBERRY..good on color,lite on taste and abv,OK for mixing but not my standard,peach (3 gallon) liquid gold in every way a wine should be,ready to bottle,6 gallon batch of peach,lite in color ,no aroma,mild taste,good abv,not except able,waste of time,PLUM/PEACH,very good on flavor with the PLUM leading the way,as was directed,peach in the back ground,decent legs great color little aroma,,needs to be sweetened jus a little,and a little more time after that then bottle,,,MELBEC,great all the way around,color aroma ,taste depth and body..will let this one set for two more months or until one year old ,then we'll bottle it,CARMERE,great color lite on aroma ,good front and rear finish,needs more time in the carboy ,not a year old yet ,this one will mature very good,




FRUIT wines are sort of my thing most of my metals of which I'm proud of are for fruit wines,so this is the bottom line,SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND SOMETIMES YOU DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO,,,,MY WINE BUDDIES GET THEIR FRUIT VERY



,VERY,CHEAP,and it shows in the final product no matter how you apply the (when good wines gone bad thinking) ,it just doesn't work out ,THEN YOU DUMP



,and put your time and effort into more rewarding efforts,....................................



.................ON THE OTHER HAND

MOVE-- the pino Gris,Riesling and peisporter closer to there final stages by adding supperkleer and degassing ,to the mojoto,Cosmo and Orange sangria,I added the chems,and finding agents and sent them on their way to the finish line,,,YES it was a busy night..


----------



## joeswine

FOOD AND WINE PAIRING CONTINUED.


----------



## joeswine

Food and wine pairing, matching food in the proper wine is like matching the proper blending partners, remember we spoke about that way back, food and wine go hand-in-hand sweet, tart, sour, all the flavors that wine imparts the flavors that the different foods in part give us a blend of a great deal and I can tell you one who enjoys a good meal. This is true. The whole idea behind matching a particular wine to a certain food to try and achieve synergy from the interaction of the flavors. My dictionary defines synergy as quote increased effectiveness, achievement, etc. Produced by combined actions. If you think of wine as a supercontinent you slather mustard on hot squeeze or squeeze lime under ceviche, it's because the to taste greater together. Not many people even muster by itself, or suck on playin*zinfandel*es, but these whose produce a nice synergy combined with other foods. Wine does this as well, but with the added bonus that.. It's wine!
F*lavor intensity,matching food and wine,the idea is to get the most out of each part of the meal.You probably don't want to serveand old vines Zinfandelwith macaroni and cheeseanymore then you would servein delicate rieslingwith Carolina barbecuein the first case,the Zenwould completely over whelm the relatively theinnocuois flavor of the pasta and the chatter. In the second, intensely smoky, barbecue would show up. The Riesling, making it taste weak and thin. The idea is to match the intensity of food with the power of your wine . ** At the big boy and the blog for white wine besides Chardonnay it's many disguises and SAUVIGNON BLANCS program wines is the bigger it tags amarone, borello, Bordeaux and to a lesser extent Shiraz and zinfandels. These will usually stand up to the most flavorful and intense foods, such as barbecue ribs, while being, and strong cheeses.** In the middle ground a medium intense wines ,white styles including Chardonnay blends in some seminal Blancs and cab francs. Medium meds include rhone styles ,chianti, Rojas, Merlot and valpolicella.** To be continued.......................*


----------



## joeswine

Welcome back, can you see the relationship between food and wine, or even beer and wine match the different foods go quite well together. Take for example the lightweights include, Pinot Gris's also called Pinot Grigio, dry Riesling, muscotta, soave ,verdiccio just to name a few. A good rule of thumb is that like food is best served with light, of white, wine for example impose skinless chicken breast steamed carrots will probably go well with a nice Italian soave. That way, the delicate flavor of the food will get pushed around. Heavy food say huge bowl of beef stew ,a baselevel prime rib with garlic mashed potatoes and mushrooms will overpower a big, full flavored Cabernet or Zinfandel. So pick, red wines to pair with heartier foods. Will have to decide yourselfwhat your cut off for light or heavy is, but keep in mind will help you pick an appropriate wine.








Partnerships with food and wine have been around for a long long timeI'm sure most of you out there know how to pick and choose. Once a great while just once a great while choosing nice cold beer and you'll see what a difference in taste and texture. It makes in your meal.






Talk to you soon................................


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## joeswine

Acid and sweetness ,. The word acid has a negative connotation in daily life ,as does sour. This is too bad. While there's nothing wrong with sweet, sour is really underrated .it-his flavors, in length and their effect on the palate.. This isn't just perception, the acids unleashed on the palate open up the taste buds and turned up the flavor intensity dial .. That's why Apple Apple's need a bit of lemon juice ,. You can't have oysters with other squeeze the zesty lemon ,either.





And



Acid in wine has a couple of effects. They can either-or cut through sweetness and can help cleanse the palate strongly â€“ flavored dishes,readying you for another sip. Acid also helps the wine stand up to acidic flavors. A real flinty â€“ drysavignon blanc, no taste wonderful with a seafood dish laced with fresh lime juice, water soft-all dry Riesling will taste flabby and weak.








This also works backwards.. If you survey fresh , juicy peach with a flinty â€“ dry sauvigno blanc on will probably taste about the same as looking a battery terminal on your car. On the other hand, the delicate, off/dry Riesling, such as itpiesporter style/will highlight the sweetness of the fruit and seemed perfectly balanced.





To be continued.................


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## Scott

joeswine said:


> the asses unleashed on the palate












Umm... what???


----------



## ibglowin

OMG! 
I think Joe uses a speech to text editor........ 
Sometimes I think he also just wants to see if we are listening!


----------



## joeswine

SORRY ABOUT THAT SOMETIMES DRAGON SPEAKES FOR ME SOMETIMES i DON'T READ SO WRIGHT AND SOMETIMES iM JUST TIRED..AND SOMETIMES I TALK LIKE A OLD italian





















AND A SOMETIMES IT A TAST



LIKE I WROTE..THANK A



YOU


----------



## joeswine

BUT HAY ,AT LEAST YOU A AWAKE..


----------



## Scott

Yup sometimesthings do taste like that! Look foward to your future posts.


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## joeswine

*minto messages*

GOOD MORNING

HERE A SHORT MESSAGE ON WINE TASTING,VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL TASTING,WHAT ARE THESE AND HOW DO THEY DIFFER?
IN A VERTICAL TASTING ,DIFFERENT VINTAGES OF THE SAME WINE TYPE FROM THE SAME WINERY ARE TASTED.THIS EMPHASIZES DIFFERENCES BETWEEN VARIOUS VINTAGES.
HORIZONTAL TASTING,THE WINES ARE ALL FROM THE SAME VINTAGE BUT ARE FROM DIFFERENT WINERIES.KEEPING WINE VARIETY OR TYPE AND WINE REGION THE SAME HELPS EMPHASIZE DIFFERENCES IN WINERY STYLES. 
THESE CAN MAKE VERY INTERESTING WINE MEETINGS IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OR A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION WITH A FEW GOOD WINE MAKERS.


----------



## joeswine

*Color the wine*

 


In wwhite wines, poor-color problems are often due to oxidation ,, resulting in a browning effect .to event browning during winemaking ,always protect your white juice and wine from air, and adequately sulfite. In my wines,. The typical problem is either a color that is too light or too dark. Alight color in Reds may be the result of a short maceration. When making wine from grapes, or from over filtering. A dark color may be the result of a maceration. That was too long ,, especially if using dark-juice grapes such as alicante........... T be continued....


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## joeswine

*Color and control*

 

It seems to me that this is not a big problem with cellar dwellers ,color is best controlled throughout all wine making stages to achieve desired results., in general, one will always lighten from the start, fermentation to a finished warming due to sedimentation of phenolic compound ,which Color, finding infiltration. 


when wine have started browning due to oxidation can be somewhat , corrected,by using acasein treatment .at the rate of 50 ppm , the penny on the extent of the Brown. This should be followed up with an Benoite treatment ,at this point you may strip the wine of some of its aroma. Question, how many of you have ever run into this problem? In some cases this does not turn out to be noticeable, until you start to pour it from the bottle. 


 Four-color gremlins can be corrected through blending .choose a dark- colored wine when blending with light-colored wines. For best results. If the color is excessively light, meaning to use wine made from alicante, for example , which is a very deep color. If the color is too dark, you can also let wine age until the desired color is obtained, or you can filter the wine after finding. Aging and filtering always light the color ..................to be continuedits amazing no matter how much i proof read i still make written mistakes.......getting old


----------



## joeswine

*Adding color to a wine*

ANOTHER EFFECTIVE METHOD THAT WILL ADD COLOR TO A RED WINE IS THE USE OF POWDER GRAPE SKINS .ADD POWDERED GRAPE SKIN TO LIGHT COLORED RED WINES AT A RATE OF FIVE G/HL .REPEATED DOSAGE UNTIL YOU HAVE OBTAIN THE DESIRED COLOR. MAKE THESE ADDITIONS BEFORE FINDING THE WINE TO AVOID HAVING ANY BOTTLE SEDIMENTATION DUE TO THE GRAPE SKIN POWDER ..


ISN'T IT IS INTERESTING HOW MANY DIFFERENT THINGS YOU CAN DO TO CONTROL THE WINE IN AS MANY DIFFERENT ASPECTS THAT YOU CAN THINK OF, YOU ARE THE MASTER , IT'S THE TOOL . YOU JUST HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO USE THE TOOL OR TOOLS IN OUR TOOLBOX.


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## joeswine

*Sangria the cornucopia of flavors*

Going back, we talked about wines , blending wines , blending fruit wines blending fruit and now we've come full circle . 


The ultimate and fruit wine blending is the sangria, from it's humble roots is paying, sangria has grown to become a popular, refreshing party drink around the world .in the United States, Singler was first tasted at 1964 world's fair in New York. The Spanish world arena services from the wine punch to its visitors ,in history was made!

Sangria is based on the traditional rep wine punch popular across Europe for hundreds of years. The plunge base would be Claret. Claire is the British term for Bordeaux , , France. This rewinds traditionally made from a blend ofCabernet Sauvignon and Merlot . Branding for would be added to the red wine punch for flavor in Ithe 1700s and 1800s Claret could be found at parties of all sizes .

Why the emphasis on wine? , remember that until modern times were was often unsafe to drink. people would be, w, watch the horses, an and. milk was considered BB from only . that meant and for toddlers , that the only safe liquid to drink had at least some alcohol in it.the alcohol would take care of any bacteria and drink . most households need someone from fruits and berries in the area . . It was very. Natural to lighten things up by adding more spices , fruits and other items to the wine to give it a different flavor .

 Two years ago my wife and Iwent to Arizona to visit her cousin in old Scottsdale , we were out on the veranda she was serving brunch and on the side table was a sangria , and white sangria , if I can remember correctly . The ingredients were a sema semi dry white, club soda,sliced green grapes , simple syrup tart apple slices peeled , with orange slices alongside , at first I didn't no what to think of it then after the second glass I could have delvedelve, it was clean refreshing and will with Mexican food. She was serving perfect wine for the occasion say. 


To be continuedS


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## joeswine

*Sangria*

Looking more specifically, , this region was actively planted with vineyard by the Romans when they swept through about 2000 BC .is very active wine shipping trade, prominently began ,with a beautiful wines of Spain, supply much of Rome's drinking desires .red grapes did very well here and have enjoyed ever since. The locals named their wine punch , and all the varieties a sangria .

So far have to my collection, . One is a camare sangria , . The other and Orange Seville sangria both are very refreshing and delightful. I'm ready for the summer 

In the south of Spain sangria often called zurra. this version of sangria is created with peach or nectarine . .


Sangria. Simple re-created from Red wine , fruit juices,, soda water, with the addition sometimes of Brandy. to the sangria, 
use good quality wine if at all possible let it chill overnight . . This lets the from flavors blend into the drink . . Try to use Rojas to get the authentic Spanish flavor, , but definitely choose something you like - you're the one drinking ! in the morning, for your sangria to pitcher full ice cubes, garnish with fresh fruit enjoy . traditionally sangria pitchers have a pinched lip so that the fruit and other solids to plop into the glass/O

This is the story of sangria, be creative and design one of your own to your liking into your taste ........


----------



## shoebiedoo

JOE, if we could take a step back to layering oak for a second. If I read your post correctly, you add 1 cup of french oak chips durringg the primary fermentation correct? If I were to ad this to secondary would i still ad that much or would I know it down a bit. It will be in secondary for at least 2 weeks. The reason I ask is the package says 4 ounces is good for 24 gallons. Can I get your thoughts on this?


----------



## robie

Joe,

I also have a question.

I have a Chardonnay kit wine that is pretty lite in flavor. I want this wine to have a little more brightness or actual Chardonnay flavor.

If a person should add grapefruit or orange zest to such a chardonnay, will this just brighten up the chardonnay and let it still taste like a Chardonnay, or will the wine then become more of a fruit-flavored chardonnay wine? I ask because I would not mind enhancing the flavor of my chardonnay, but I do not want it to become fruit flavored.

Thanks, Joe.


----------



## joeswine

*shoebiedoo*

Hi good to hear from you, is this a kit with fresh juice? if you added it to the primary and you have finished fermentation, what does it taste like. I know it's not finished yet but what do taste? Depending on what you have now I would add the same amount to the secondary ,normal, or did I misread something,. What type of wine is this because layering oak can also be done with powdered in the secondary that would add a bit more mouth feel . 

Question for you, . I don't see as well as I use capital letters to help me along ,. Is there something wrong with that? 


Please stay in touch enjoy the conversation..........


----------



## joeswine

*Robie*

Interesting, taking on the Chardonnay, I have done this myself more than once and it usually always works out for the best ,useing , g*rapefruit *what it does provide a background and only that , So your Chardonnay is a little. Light on taste that's the best way to go. Question what is the volume you talking about ,usually when I put it in Riesling or Chardonnay or a viognier to 6 gallons. I put two grapefruits worth of zest. The results are ,no- it's not fruity, it in the background as talked about earlier on, and if you still like your, Chardonnay , just a tad woody, then have you ever tried liquid oak ,and or powdered oak in combination ,a great mouth feel. Hope I can help please let's talk again 

Question, have a little trouble seeing so unless I'm using my editor , . I really prefer to use capital letters, is a rule on this fourm that I can't writing in caps ? If so, please let me know,,,,,,,,,,,S
Hope to hear from you again, yours JP 
L


----------



## shoebiedoo

joeswine said:


> Hi good to hear from you, is this a kit with fresh juice? if you added it to the primary and you have finished fermentation, what does it taste like. I know it's not finished yet but what do taste? Depending on what you have now I would add the same amount to the secondary ,normal, or did I misread something,. What type of wine is this because layering oak can also be done with powdered in the secondary that would add a bit more mouth feel .
> 
> Question for you, . I don't see as well as I use capital letters to help me along ,. Is there something wrong with that?
> 
> 
> Please stay in touch enjoy the conversation..........



CAP's are fine for sure <grin> These are all Juice buckets. I read this thread as they were fermenting so they are all getting chose to 1.010 The chardonnay is at 1.035 and the Malbec is at 1.015. So I'm wondering if I'm better off just waiting till fermentation is complete or ad the chips for during secondary, Not sure which way to go. BTW I think i will end up Zesting the Chardonnay with Grapefruit as you instructed Robie. What a great Idea. 

Question for you, in all seriousness, would it help you out if we all used caps on this thread?...just a thought.


----------



## robie

joeswine said:


> Interesting, taking on the Chardonnay, I have done this myself more than once and it usually always works out for the best ,useing , g*rapefruit *what it does provide a background and only that , So your Chardonnay is a little. Light on taste that's the best way to go. Question what is the volume you talking about ,usually when I put it in Riesling or Chardonnay or a viognier to 6 gallons. I put two grapefruits worth of zest. The results are ,no- it's not fruity, it in the background as talked about earlier on, and if you still like your, Chardonnay , just a tad woody, then have you ever tried liquid oak ,and or powdered oak in combination ,a great mouth feel. Hope I can help please let's talk again
> 
> Question, have a little trouble seeing so unless I'm using my editor , . I really prefer to use capital letters, is a rule on this fourm that I can't writing in caps ? If so, please let me know,,,,,,,,,,,S
> Hope to hear from you again, yours JP
> L



That is what I hoped you would say. The Chardonnay is a 6 gallon kit. It is the Cellar Craft Washington Chard. Great kit, but I am just wanting a little more flavor to offset the lees aging and stirring process I will do on it in the coming months. 

It is oaked some, because I fermented it in a new oak barrel, but it still needs a little more oak. I haven't tried powdered oak ever before.
So, the zest from two grapefruits aged awhile in Vodka or "the other". I can certainly do that!!!

I'll do the zesting on a smaller test sample first. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Ah-h-h-h-h-h. So that;'s why you sometimes do all capital letters. Now I know.

Thanks again, Joe.


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## joeswine

*robie*

firstf you see me using caps.,I'm not at home when typing I m at my office,(dragon is not here yet).


important.....YOU CAN USE THE EXTRACT YOUR MAKING,BUT THAT WILL GIVE MORE FRUIT TO THE FINISH PRODUCT,IF YOU USE THE ZEST (FRESH) DIRECTLY INTO THE WINE,THAT WILL GIVE YOU THE BRIGHT BACKGROUND WERE DISCUSSING.

I USED THE EXTRACT IN MY CAREMERE THIS YEAR AND IT CAME OUT LIKE A BEAUTIFUL SANGRIA,THE USE OF ZEST IS A CHOICE OF TASTE AND CREATIVITY,BUT WHEN I STRICTLY WANT BACKGROUND ,IT COMES STRAIGHT OFF THE FRUIT,THE EXTRACT CAN BE USED EITHER WAY BUT WITH DIFFERENT ENDINGS,IN YOUR CASE STRAIGHT OFF THE FRUIT,THIS TIME,GOOD TO SEE YOU WANTING TO EXPLORE..YOURS.JP


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## joeswine

*Shoebiedoo*

ADDING OAK TO THE SECONDARY IS LIKE FINISHING A GREAT DINNER WITH A GOOD WINE ,IT CAN'T HURT,BUT THAT DEPENDS OF THE WINE TYPE,TRY USING A BALANCE IN THE REDS OF POWDERED AND CHIPS ,ADDS TO THE OVERALL MOUTH FEEL,ALSO FOR THE WHITES,LIQUID OAK ADDS JUST THE RIGHT TOUCH,WITH OUT DISTORTING THE COLOR TO MUCH,SECONDARY IS OUR PLAYGROUND....EXPLORE IT..ALSO SEE THE REPLY TO ROBIE ON THE WAY I USE THE EXTRACT/OR ZEST.....REMEMBER EVERYTHING WE DO CAN BE ADJUSTED TO OUR OWN TASTE ..EVEN IN THE FINISHED PRODUCT......HAVE YOU EVER TRIED FRANCES FORD COPPULLAS WINES? EVEN,BALANCED AND THERE CHARD IS EXCELLENT,AROUND $12.00 BOTTLE,THIS IS A GREAT COMBINATION OF WINE ,OAK AND FRUIT ...YOURS JPNO, COMING BACK TO ME MY (CAPS)COMPUTER TAKES CARE OF THAT ..I JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY .SOMEONE WOULD GET ALL UPSET TOWARDS ME USING THAT TYPE OF WRITING..?


----------



## robie

joeswine said:


> firstf you see me using caps.,I'm not at home when typing I m at my office,(dragon is not here yet).
> 
> 
> important.....YOU CAN USE THE EXTRACT YOUR MAKING,BUT THAT WILL GIVE MORE FRUIT TO THE FINISH PRODUCT,IF YOU USE THE ZEST (FRESH) DIRECTLY INTO THE WINE,THAT WILL GIVE YOU THE BRIGHT BACKGROUND WERE DISCUSSING.
> 
> I USED THE EXTRACT IN MY CAREMERE THIS YEAR AND IT CAME OUT LIKE A BEAUTIFUL SANGRIA,THE USE OF ZEST IS A CHOICE OF TASTE AND CREATIVITY,BUT WHEN I STRICTLY WANT BACKGROUND ,IT COMES STRAIGHT OFF THE FRUIT,THE EXTRACT CAN BE USED EITHER WAY BUT WITH DIFFERENT ENDINGS,IN YOUR CASE STRAIGHT OFF THE FRUIT,THIS TIME,GOOD TO SEE YOU WANTING TO EXPLORE..YOURS.JP



Thanks for that info. I'll just zest directly.


----------



## joeswine

*Time to take a break*

 This is the time of year for me just before air-conditioning season when I need a break, so signing off for now ,I'll be back online soon thank you for reading my threads is greatly appreciated and always remember t*hink outside the box. X*
.


----------



## joeswine

*Sugar but any other name*

 I have go been gone for 14 days to the great state of New Mexico ,another not drop of wine insight, strictly coronas and bloody Mary's are two my favorite drinks other than wine. I
had couple questions p.m. me , what type sugar do I use? . Pure white table sugar is very effective. Wine yeast consume these easily, leaving no residual flavors. Many winemakers retailers offer pure white corn sugar for winemaking. Avoid casters and brown sugar, or anything that contains molasses. This will give your wine is undesirable taste. There are fancier fermentable sugars. If you want to be particular, but fortoday will keep it simple. I read all this used only prefer to submit your white on its own natural sugars at crush regardless of the potential alcohol. That's a better preference is nothing wrong with that. But now you can be confident that capitalization is a legitimate option offering yet another way to grow and improve your skills as a whole. Why make Astra me myself I strictly use simple syrup. Once I made it or two to one solution I can store it in ball jars, and using at a quarter the time and checking the specific gravity is ago. It's fast, efficient, and it works as always you prepared ahead of time and being prepared ahead of time is the name of the game for cellar dweller not being behind the river the toolbox I talked about things in my toolkit that's one of them.
 There are many theories about capitalization the only thing I can tell you to be sure is that you need to come up the capitalization chart this will tell you the specific gravity of bricks and alcohol percent, okay that you're trying to achieve in the, the first knowing the characteristics of the wine( going back to the beginning) the partnerships wine a good hydrometer is your best agent of choice they learning how to read it and use it is essential in our craft .
Good to be back, to talk to you soon.........will continue a capitalization from the beginning okay,,,,,next time .


----------



## joeswine

*Feeling under the weather*

Just starting to come out of a two-week bronchial cold ,should feel better by Monday sorry for the delay in the post .. I missed them.


----------



## Runningwolf

Joe, take care of yourself and hope you feel better soon.


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## joeswine

*Fruit wine is the time of the season or is?*

Hi there, good to be back I was just talking to a friend and he went down to the farmers market and bought himself five cases of Chilean plums ,known these guys go down to these farmers markets of which I have done the same thing . Most of the time. The fruit is extremely right ,slightly moldy and almost fit the non-human consumption. But some of it at its peak .


So let's take a step back and think about fruit wines , try this on for size .
In the beginning, there was wine ......... Just wine . , a pomegranate wine is mentioned in the Bible, , in addition to wines of the vine , but the author of song of songs -- the book which is mentioned - did not express the modern view that it was a lesser wine . . If you take as much care selecting your ingredients in correcting your country wine is a grape , winemakers do with theirs, you can make the wine that can hold his head up among the cabs and the Chardonnay's of this world. 


We will start by saying *all fruits are not equal there is no comparison between supermarket fruit and just picked ripe fruit . commercial fruits are picked when they were things that are ripe enough to make it to the far this market. Without spoiling *. fruit go to sorting plants where there are called , sorted by rightness, packed for shipping and either sold on contract or sold to jobbers. the jobbers may take actual possession of the fruit and stored temporarily or sell it as is being sorted and pack . is loaded on trucks and transported to many distribution points , points around the country. is offloaded in warehouses , broken down to delivering lots, reload on the trucks and with other produce , patient onto retail stores and supermarkets . . There is of loaded again transferred to displays and eventually sold. 
And this is fresh as it get unless you have a corner on we you can pick your own if the fruit are southernCalifornia or peaches from Georgia , they could have been take five days before they appeared in on our market if the picture and disorder and the job or and the buyer. Each do his job perfectly. Those stories would just be turning red enough to look right when they arrive at our retail market after 3 to 4 days of display , they will be deep red and look luscious after 5 to 7 days, they will be showing signs of age or spoilage. . The same with those peaches - blush will deepen as they arrive at the BTR & will days there after , but *aft*er a few days they begin to deteriorate. Internally . , and They should . by now, it's been 8 to 11 days since they were picked and think about all the produce from Chile , Peru, Ecuador, Panama , etc. that has been off the vine, Bush , or treat even longer. 

* To be continued.......... You eap what you sow and only 3% of this ** produce is even inspected as it comes into this country.
*


----------



## joeswine

*Making fruit continued*

I love making fruit wines. How about you? Whether it's raspberry ,, blackberry,, blueberry,, peach or any of the other many, many wonderful fruits out there to choose from what is your best ,?


For wine continued, on the other hand, , some fruit are perfectly rightly picked . Depending on the rightness, they might be sent to be can , process and the. From pastries, , pies, yogurt, ice cream, jam, jelly or, if really right , juice or flash frozen . 

TherThere are two ways to look at this . all factors being optimized, there is an order of freshness and an order of rightness . fresh this means the whole , unprocessed fruit and rates it with respect to texture , flavor , natural sugar , acidity both TA andpH, color , and tanning , if any. on that scale , in descending order of freshness when consumed, or prepared for wine , our fresh picked , roadside farm or Orchard outlet, collaboratives outlet and retail store. on a scale about optimum brightness , the descending order is fresh picked, roadside farm or Orchard outlet , flash frozen fruit, cooperative out outlet, juice canned fruit , concentrate and retail store . 

Of course, when supermarkets feature locally grown produce , it should be up there with the roadside farm or Orchard outlet on the first date is displayed. we have to decide if we want to try to capture freshness or rightness . either way ,growing our own or visiting a you pick it farm immediately before we start the wine kit BB if we know how to pick ripe fruit 
N
To be c*ontinued .......... *


----------



## joeswine

*To freeze or not to freeze*

That is the question? 

Not to get too confusing but, go back to the last thread before you continue. Freezing, in flash freezing, does not lock in freshness – it destroys it . But it does lock in rightness . Freshness and brightness, as we have already seen, do not equate. We will lose flavor when we freeze fruits or berries, but probably not much. What we will lose is texture . That is the main point of freezing fruit for one – to break, texture release more juice . Our reasons are to postpone to use or to store small harvests until we have enough for batch . 

ConConfused! freezing just pick berries, cranberries, gooseberries , figs , peaches, nectarines are many other fruit for later use make sense. ice crystals breached theture and breaks down upon defrosting. with only like crushing, they ferment much better than they would have fresh . unless we are growing our own strawberries, plums, Kiwis, passionfruit, mangoes, Wada or pious and have too many or not enough or just can't start a wine right now , there is little advantage in freezing them, they pretty much disintegrate while fermented whether fresh or defrosted . in other words, freezing them does not release more juice . some fruit suffer from freezing and frosting – bananas, soft pears and melons . hard pears, apples, pineapples and citrus fruit will keep a very long time if stored correctly , if they must be frozen, it is best to juice them and freeze the juice. 
There is a difference between home freezing and commercial flash freezing. we can flash freeze fruit in our home freezer but we have to freeze the berries or for pieces individually and then consolidate them and package them . 
H
Finally, . We cannot make ice wine by simply freezing grapes in our freezers . that topic is well beyond, The scope of this wine maker but it is a misconception. Many Have. (lot to think about isn't it ?), , were trained to do things that are the norm, but are we looking at it from the right perspective , I know there's a lot of great fruit winemakers out there SoTill next time........... *Think outside the box ..to be continued *


----------



## joeswine

*Berries in the wine*




* Freshness or ripeness, did you get the difference. It's hard to grasp sometimes we think that the program using this fresh we sometimes forget or to ask ourselves is right ,. I like to think that the differences. Close but it is really ,if you go to the farmers market. The next time out, take some from your hand squeeze some of tasted use does it taste good? Or is it a little flat, doesn't even look good, is a fruit overripe , which itself might not be a bad thing, check for mold actually the record for the better more concentrated sugars . I especially like doing this I'm buying plums plum wine is exquisite in every aspect of the points made right, have you ever made any plum on, around here I'm privileged to get italian plums . These were red oval plum ,purple inside and make supersweet .ffpacs.*


* Picking up fruit of whatever type can be an art in itself I know around here cling peaches* are at a premium when they're in season you want these right not to spotted. 

To be continued........... thanks for your viewing


----------



## pjd

Joe, I have read this entire thread. some of it several times. I appreciate the effort you are making to help and advise on our winemaking. 
I could use more information on adding body to a finished or nearly finished wine. I have a Cabernet from a juice bucket, no skins that is completely dry, has good taste and bouquet for such a young wine but I would like it to have more body. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Phil


----------



## joeswine

*Body of wine*

What you can try is adding powdered Oak to the wine in graduation ,and how older wine is but it should matter, add two heaping tablespoons powdered Oak to start with assuming that you have six or 5 gallon set up ,starting but it settle out for week or two then add another 2 tablespoons of powdered of, but it'up two more weeks. See if this gives you the body or the texture that you're looking for. Powdered Oak is a lot of body to wine you can add a touch of cantannin mostly body. 


The body of the wine starts in the beginning of the press , . If you use fresh juice or a kit name has to be there start with , adding powdered Oak at the body adding Oak chips as the acidity , lends to the mouth feel and the feeling that you get on your tongue with the coating. t T the powder 
next time you make a kit.. Or fresh juice add . the Oak in the primary 11 set for as long as you like , , then add the powdered Oak in stages to your taste ............................ that tell you I body if there is none to begin with , . At least something to work with ............. respectfully Joe


----------



## pjd

Thanks Joe, I will try that.
phil


----------



## joeswine

*the body of wine*

 It is one of the hardest forms of wine art to accomplish,at our level,TONY T,sent me a bottle of HIS AMARONE,a megellon kit if I spelled it right,this kit had GREAT BODY a class wine,ask him what accompanied the kit ,deep body and texture,thats what your looking for ,but remember not every wine has that charistic and nor should they .Part of this thread was knowing your partners and there charistics..in the beginning is were the body is made each wine unto itself..thanks for your question.


----------



## joeswine

*When it matters, measured the juice*

Most of us begin making country wines by following wine making recipes .. These tell us how much of this and how much of that to use, they're not always precise when it comes to the total volume. 

Many country wine recipes are established for 1 gallon batches. But actually make a little more than that. So we have some to topple with. The recipes do not say so, but we are expected to transfer the liquid impressed juice from the primary to the secondary and put an extra in inappropriate size bottle and seal it with airlock. 
However, we may want to be more exacting than this . We are working with all fruit or berries ,. This can be a problem because we don't really know up front how much juice if fruit will yield. It then becomes necessary to press the fruit with the berries and measure the juice before the must is constituted. We might want to do this to determine the volume of the juice or better balance the must before pitching the yeast. 

If the fruit is soft and easily pressed , such as blackberries, raspberries, kiwis , etc. tie them in a pressing bag impressed to extract the juice . It hard like apples or cooking pears or semi hard like peaches , plums, nectarines fall if frozen , chopped or crush it if not already in that condition , . Add just enough water to cover the fruit, and add pectin enzyme as required . If you're 10– 12 hours , the fruit should be transferred to a pressing bag and easily pressed to release the juice.
Citrus should be manually juiced . pomegranates are best used by separating the seed sacs and heating them until the sacs break while stirring. bananas are not juiced . but sliced and cooked in water until a gray scum stops foaming on the surface. , this takes anywhere from 25 – 45 min.. N Skim the scum off a large spoon , strain discard the fruit and use the water. 
We now measure the volume of juice, notes this , subtracted from the total volume of wine . We're making . the difference is the amount of sugar , water, and other ingredients required to make up the total volume . ............. *and thought this was easy. to be continued *


----------



## joeswine

*Let there be light*

Ever wonder, how light affects your wine, while exposure to sunlight has not been proven to directly affect the aging process, they can provide the heat that can negatively accelerate the process. Utraviolet range of the light spectrum can trigger oxidation. *There's that word again afeared – o – word light me also had in the production of copper in. Cassie, this produces an orange – brown color as well as a musty smell. Therefore, try to age or wines into the glass containers –the dark the glass , the better. The color of the bottle is really we secondary to the in the light of your storage area . To turn on the lights on your way out. What I do is. I cover all my carboys with t*owels, I ask people to save me their towels in most cases they do for a good bottle of wine in return. I use them until he could be used more but the main purpose is not just to help me keep things clean it's helping me keep like out of carboys as I'm working in the cellar. R


----------



## joeswine

*Espresso cello*

This iis one of my favorite ,and if you follow the way do it the end result will be a deep coffee , chocolate taste that you want to make more each time I guarantee. 


For this recipe. It takes time and a little patience, okay

Step one; making the extract from coffee beans it doesn't matter what type, Colombian would be better or espresso coffee beans whole beans is the way to go .take a ball jar fil lit up almost to the top with coffee beans ,add Everclear to the top ,and let it sit for a month.In That time frame the alcohol will extract the coffee flavor from the bean,. If you can let it set second month, all the better. 
Now that you have the extract made, and you have a ball jar or two of simple syrup already done and waiting , the next step would be to prepare yourself to make espresso coffee , . This is your base just like it would be if it was your base was wine. Ske espresso coffee at least 12 cups. 
Now armed with a little time and all the ingredients you find yourself a big soup pot , . The first item to going to the soup pot is all of the espresso coffee , the next item to go into the mix is the simple syrup bring the coffee up to taste not quite . strain the liquid from the be extract and save the beans put them on the side . . Slowly start adding the Everclear to taste . espresso coffee, simple syrup and extract liquid all taste to your taste back sweeten at the end if needed.what ever you have in wine bottles whether they be 375 or 750s , Cork them, place them in the refrigerator . Your going to find out that a week to two weeks time that they'll settle out, this is to be expected . Now the unexpected part is that sometimes I do shake it up and sometimes I don't and I've tried to filter off the liquid from the bottom, that all depends on your profile . . I know this seems like a lot to do but believe me it isn't because it comes over time , you have to have patience and prep, then you move forward, it's done . . Once it's done and aged for couple of weeks your'll find out that you'll want to. Do this again and again and again , , I guarantee goodin.. This is for you, N


----------



## robie

*Expresso Cello*

Wow, that sounds really delicious, Joe. Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

*the best part*

when it's all finished, you're going to find that you can drink this one cello, anytime of the day or night,* it's that good*


----------



## saramc

The espresso cello sounds fabulous Joe. Will definitely make some of this (imagining adding a shot or two of it to cake frosting or brownie batter, etc). Can you give us a general idea of how much Everclear (what proof are you using) you like to add to a 12 cup batch of fresh espresso? How much simple syrup do you prefer (realize it is to taste)?

Have you ever considered adding sweetened condensed milk to this to make a cream liqueur?

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## joeswine

*No limit*

12 cups of espresso cello ,should yield somewhere in the neighborhood oof 3 to 4 375 mm bottles ,give or take a look. There is no limit to what you could do best for me . I leave it like it is ,let it set up a month in the refrigerator and enjoy at will . When I compose a cello or any of the liquior type dessert. *It's always by taste ,but you'll see if you try the straight up after a few weeks to a month in the refrigerator the coffee will take on the chocolate taste if you 've done correctly.  *

* It's one of the best cellos you'll ever make *


----------



## joeswine

*Footnote*

Let's take the espresso back one step ,what you have blended all the ingredients into the pot, you feel like this is what you want ,. Cover the pot with plastic wrap , refrigerator overnight. This will give the mix a chance to blend together ,re-taste the blend ,you're ready to bottle


With beans you have left over, . Any alcohol left place it back into the ball jar fill with Everclear , or re-instate the old or new beans, but stand until you're ready again . N


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## joeswine

*Expresso cello*

HAS ANYONE TRIED TO MAKE THIS GEM YET???????????????????


----------



## joeswine

*Corks*

Welcome to the wonderfull woLD of corks.

Next on the menue..stay tuned


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## joeswine

*The wonderfull world of corks*

Cork, what do we know about? 

Where do they come from? 

How many different types are there ? 

How do they affect the ecosystem? 

Are they sustainable?


----------



## joeswine

*Corks*

CORKS, I mean really, do we knew, where they came from? and what regions,. We take them out of the bag, place them in our corker and press them into the bottles .

But if you think about for a a minute, they are worlds unto themselves -with a little research their quite interesting actually . 

Let's begin environmentally friendly harvested , corks is a 100% natural , renewable, recyclable, biodegradable material that is obtained from environmentally friendly harvesting process . 

There are approximately 6.6 million acres of of renewable Forrest that extended across Portugal , Spain, Algeria , , Morocco, Italy, Tunisia and France . . These Oak Forest support one of the world's highest levels of forest biodiversity , second only to the Amazonian rainforest . 

Trees are not cut down to harvest cork, rather , the Bark is harvested by hand every nine years. cork oak trees can live to 300 years!
Imagine that every nine years the bark is removed mother nature is smart enough to know , To put it back, and we are smart enough to know how to maintain this industry that is supportive of sustainable livelihoods as the cork forests provide a vital source of income for thousands of families . 
M

Interesting subject............. 
. will continue


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## Sudz

joeswine said:


> Interesting subject.............
> . will continue


 
Okay, I'm hooked.... Feed me more!


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## joeswine

*Corks*

AGGLOMERATED, WINE CORKS ARE SHORT SUGGESTED FOR WINES UP TO ONE HALF YEARS OLD YOUR COMPOSITE CORK ,NUMBER NINE AND THEY'RE AVAILABLE IN TWO LENGTHS ON INCH AND A HALF AND THE OTHER IS INCHING THREE QUARTERS .THE INCH AND A HALF QUIRK IS FOR WINES UP TO ONE HALF YEARS OLD .. THE AND THE INCH, AND THREE- THREE-QUARTER is suggested for wines aging up to two years .
Sometimes a problem arises with CORKS especially style CORKS were mold and bacteria can lodged itself crevices , . This is a common complaint a musty wine , ; Cork taint. 


The number nines, an ancient three-quarter are what is all the time . I buy them in a bag with thousand use usually for around hundred dollars , list quite a while and I do nothing special to the just take another bag 30 count the time and bottle wherever warranted bottle . . I IT talked a couple winery some my, who usually are reluctant to say but they do or they don't to but as a gathered none of them do much with the CORKS except enter into a hopper and Cork away . 
A
The next so Cork is calling natural wine cork,natural wine corks drive the highest quality cork oak .peruderm or b or. these CORKS are suitable for long-term wine storage . they come in three different grades clean first , . Super extra and flor.these courts are thoroughly washed before sales and treated to defend against cork taint . and his have a breakdown 
A O


First Quality natural wine corks suggested for wines up to seven years old , hiatus greed natural course number nine and one and three-quarter inches it's all standard bottles. B
Super quality natural wine corks , . suggested for wines up to nine years old once again higher grade natural cork a number nine and ancient three quarters long that's all standard one .

Extra quality natural wine corks , suggested for wines up to 12 years ,Ventura very high-grade natural cork diameter number nine length inch with records fits Austin on bottles . 
N 
flor Quality Natural wine corks, suggested for wines for aging 12+ years old the highest grade natural course dampener number nine length engines recorders fits Austin bottles .
so there you have that's the beginning the cork .

Stay tuned More to come........  N


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## Kramnuko

Thank you Joe and all contributors


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## Sudz

So, agglomerated number nines at 1 3/4" and you're good to go for wines which may exist for up to two years?


----------



## joeswine

*Yessssssssssssssssss*

YES that is correct.....





CORKS ...THE NEXT LEVEL....CONTINUED


----------



## joeswine

*Corks*

Hi, I'm back to again let's talk a little more a bout CORKS .

What we seen with the economical version to do , whether it's inch and a half or inch and three-quarter in their AND appropriate holding times . Next on the list is natural wine CORKS , these remain the preferred quark of the finest winemakers since the 16th-century when comparison THEY first use them as a wine closure . There selected from the finest high-grade natural CORK and ideal for wines OF all ages, their shelf life is extensive . 
Next culminated wine corks our medium grade natural corks with though lintels with the little cracks in them are filled with a compound made from CORK powder . . The colmated wine cork , . This process is intended to simulate and more dense properties of a high-grade natural cor, these type of wine corks are very popular in Europe . 

And you thought a cork was just a cork !  C

* To be continued.......*






P


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## joeswine

*Corks*

1+1 economical wine cork suitable for younger wines opened up within four years of bottle 1+1 wine corks are often referred to as a duo wine corks because they are an engineered court manufactured using two core components- and agglomerated based with slices of natural cork on the ends. Result is a firm core with good sealing properties. 

 Synthetic wine corks, aren't alternative plastic wine cork manufactured to resemble the properties and the seal of the natural cork stoppers . Suitable for wines to be open within five years the bottling. 

* And last but not least, use wine corks are not usable for bottling wine but are good for crafts. So there's a little journey through wine cork country... Thank you*


----------



## joeswine

*I have a problem*

Have you ever noticed sometimes when you open a bottle of wine is just wasn't what you expected ,let's go over some wine faults such as cloudiness, titanic crystals, sulfur smell, rotten egg smell acetic spoilage and other problems as home winemakers we run into all the time. 
E


Whether a stock fermentation or cork taint we direct most of our problems , we could also go over the wine tasting terms they go hand-in-hand for problems . 



Stay tuned.. for this is( when the wines gone bad)


----------



## joeswine

*A trip to Georgia*

Last month why meeting was at Gino's pintos in Hammonton New Jersey ,Michael I just came back that Saturday evening from a place called George is straddled between the Russian and Turkish border is a country unto itself struggling to stay out of the shackles of the Russian government but that's not what were here we here with Michael to talk about his trip and the Georgian wine industry .

The government contact Michael and ask him if you can visit their country and asked for his advice . Gino pintos have been around for a long time have vines extended into California the extensions into Italy and a large expanse of contacts in Chile for exporting wine.
I started this thread on one of my other ones but I want to carry it over here so that's why I started again . about his trip as he told IT. 
Georgia itself is very metropolitan sort of second world the best DESCRIPTIVE, Michael story starts starts in the hillsides , to hear him say it he was laying in his bed in A farmhouse, no air conditioning, no fan and it was sweltering, he asked himself " what am I doing here " but soon he knew why he was there this was a chance of a lifetime for him to see a part of the world and history unto itself . 
E

So let's talk about George is one of the oldest wine producing regions of the WORLD. the fertile valleys of the South caucuses , WHICH Georgia straddles , believed by many archaeologists to be the source of the world first cultivated grapevines and Neolithic wine production , over 8000 years ago . due to the many millennium of wine MAKING the conditions of its VIRATELS are entwined and inseparable with the country's national identity . 
Among the best regions of Georgia where wine is reduced are kakheti which is further divided into micro regions,no sense going into all THAT BREAK DOWN.

Michael was astounded hoW this was a Third World country and how politically it was entangled, YET STILL modern age ,BUT THE OUTLANDS still no running water , no flush toilets, not exactly what he was expecting but he was expecting some good wine . (FOR THR MOST PART)
The roots of Georgian their birth culture have been traced back by archaeologists to at least 6000 BC when peoples of the South caucuses discovered that grape juice turned into wine was left buried in a shallow. pit . this knowledge was nursed by experience , and from 4000 BC GeorgIANS were cultivating grapes,varying clay vessels in which to store the wine ready for serving at perfect GROUND temperature . when filled with fermented juice the harvest vessels are topped with a wooden LID and then covered with Earth. some may Remain in tOOMED for up to 50 YEARS. 

Michael said he was astonished when using thESE clay pots of all sizes 50 gallon six gallon hundred gallon the great diversity of sizes all with a single intent to produce wine . wine vessels of every shape , size and design have been the crucial part of the pottery in Georgia for millen for.aS ancient artifacts attest to the high skill of local. craftsmen.MANUFACTURING vessels , the most ambiguous An unique ARE George winemaking culture are probably the kvevris, very large earthenware vessels with an inside CAOTING of beeswax . not only WAS used to fermented grape juice and to store wine , but also a wide variety of vessels for drinking.
Will continue this tomorrow or next day, I wish I can put pics on here for you TO see the stuff he gave me to read in to introduce you people to Georgian wines .... 
. .* To be continue............*


----------



## joeswine

*A trip to Georgia*

 The continuous importance of wine making and drinking in Georgian culture is also visible in the various antique works of art .. Many of the unearthed silver, gold and bronze artifacts of the third and second millennial BC bear chased imprints of the vine ,grape clusters and leaves


The state Museum of Georgia has on display a cup of high karat gold set with gems , and ornate silver pitcher and some other artifacts dated to the second millennial BC these people like their wine 

During the Soviet times wines produced in Georgia were popular. in comparison with other wines from the surrounding area that were available on the Soviet market Georgian wines have been more preferable for the Soviets . in 1950 vineyards in Georgia occupied 143,000 acres , , but in 1985 already 316,000 acres due to increasing demand . in 1985 wine production was,000 times . during Gorbachev anti alcohol campaign , many old Georgian menus were cut off. 

Through a lot of political unrest the viticulture in Georgia today still alive ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, will continue............ stay aboardI.


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## joeswine

*A trip to Georgia*

Georgia ranks second in terms of volume and production. In the former Soviet Union behind Moldova and Georgian wines have always been the most highly prized and sought after in the Soviet space. Presently, the wine is produced by thousands of small farmers using primarily traditional techniques of wine making. Remember I told you about the earth in crocks that they bury )as well as modern wineries, such as teliani Valley,telavis marani,tbilvino,( really hard to pronounce these names) according to the ministry of virtacultior of Georgia grapes harvested in 2009 was 130 thousand tons and wine production has increased from 13.8 thousand wine bottles 2009/ 215.8 thousand wine bottles in 2010,no matter how you cut it., it's a lot wine, Michael said that the wines. Overall were very good and compared in some cases to the wines of California and of Italy. The growing conditions in Georgia is blessed, he said extremes of weather are you unusual Somerset the short sleeve sunny summers, winters mild and frost free. Natural springs abound, and the Caucasian mountains , streams draining rich water into the valleys. George's moderate climate and moist air, influenced by the Black Sea, provided the best conditions for growing,and cultivating. The soil and vineyards is so intensely cultivated that the grapevines grow up the trunks of fruit trees . Can you imagine that eventually hanging down along with the fruit of the tree when they are right. This method of cultivation is called maglari. Michael went on to say that the vineyards themselves are immaculate. They pride themselves in their work and in the vineyards. ........... Will continue . Stay tuned


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## joeswine

*News flash*





VINELAND WINE CONTEST ,TOOK FIRST PLACE SEMIDRY WINE ,PIESPORTER. 



 THIRD PLACE, ZINFANDEL POMEGRANATE 


THE OLD MAN STILL GOT


----------



## joeswine

*wine of georgia*

 traditional Georgian grape varieties of little known in the West. Now that the wines of eastern and central Europe are coming to international awareness , grades from this region are becoming better known. Athough there are are nearly 400 to choose from , only 38 varieties are freshly grown for commercial verticals are in Georgia .

 rkatsiteli ( white) is a variety that is so widely grown in eastern and central Europe that ranks third in the world our hectares grown . is the most important grape variety used to me Georgian white wines. i Ihigh in acidity and is capable of producing wines with fine characteristics. 

 saperavi(red) produces substantial deep red wines that are suitable for extended aging , perhaps up to 15 years. . The wine has the potential to produce high alcohol levels and he used extensively for blending with other lesser varieties. is Ihe most important grape variety used to me Georgian red wines .

 mtsvani ( white ) is also important in Georgian wines, and is often blended with rakatsiteli to which it adds a free , aromatic balance. in the Georgian language mtsvani means green I have some of the basic wines also a lot of my could not pronounce that Michael was telling us about he actually had to read them,himself and tripped over the language. 

 Michael traveled with an interpreter all the time he was there and some of the people but most of the people in Europe spoke some English . He said they were very accommodating and very friendly people . He also said traditionally , George wines carry the name of the source region , district , or village , much like French regional wine such as or Bordeaux or Burgundy. is t It these French wines, George wines are usually a blend of two or more grapes H . George wines are classified as sweet, semisweet, semidry dry fortified and sparkling. the Tmidry rice of the most popular D
............................ if yo Iwant to learn about Georgian wines go to your favorite liquor store or wine and spirits shop. And ask, the proprietor do you have any Georgian, tasty adventure .


The ventures continues..........


----------



## samwisegamgeese

My wine tastes like Sherry??? Why?


----------



## joeswine

*sherry????????????*

QUESTION?

DESCRIBE THEM?


----------



## diggerdan17

samwisegamgeese said:


> My wine tastes like Sherry??? Why?



Thats odd, My sherry tastes like wine!


----------



## Ricky

Congrats Joeswine...


----------



## joeswine

*thank you*

THANK YOU RICKY..DO YOU READ MY THREADS?


----------



## joeswine

*Wines of Georgia*

To tell you the truth the names of the wines are very hard for me to pronounce ,so let us just say that if you want to do a wine tour in local wine store , ask and see if they have any wines from Georgia ,, from the sweet, to the dry, to the semidry, to the fortified. 

When we think of wines usually think of Italy , , California or S Spain, Australia and other parts of the world try thinking Georgian wines sample a few if you dare remembering this is a part of Europe that has been making wine since biblical times . 

From Gino pintos and myself. Thanks for reading this thread...........................S


----------



## joeswine

*Do you remember??????????*

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SORBATE AND KMET?

DO YOU RECALL THE EFFECTS OXYGEN HAS ON WINE AND HOW TO AVOID IT?

WHEN TO USE SORBATE ,WHEN TO USE KMET.? BETTER YET HOW MUCH TO USE?

WE ARE TESTED EVERY TIME WE APPROACH OUR WINE MAKING PROCESS AND TRY TO GET SOMETHING DONE ..DO YOU REMEMBER?


----------



## joeswine

*Lightning strikes*

In the role winemaking everything is part ,and believe it or not light can affect the wine. Light struck wines and those that have had excessive exposure to ultraviolet light, particularly very delicate one , such as champagnes I generally worse affected ,with the fall, causing a wet cardboard or wet wool type flavor and aroma .wines are really become I struck because of low follow all the phenloic compounds present in the wine that protected it the fault explains why wines are generally followed: less, which blocks ultraviolet light, why wine should be stored in a dark environment....

All of the time when finished the carboy or even a fermentation buckets .. This help us block out the light and helps maintain some of the heat within the wine . Light also transmits heat and this can cause the aging process of wine to speed up theoretically not in a good way ................................ s So when you are done filling your carboys or whatever you store your wine in covered up . P
.covering u


----------



## joeswine

*A Tour through Italian wine country*

You know I come from Italian American descent and plenty of times on Sundays around my mothers or grandmothers table . They will be loud talking the clatter of dishes and accentuation of raise arms and hands and that was only after four glasses of wine ,the crescendo and then a pause, the conversation would get louder and louder and then a pause as people began to eat and drink before the next wave. 


Part of that spectacle was the wine , who had made it ? When was it made? but nobody ever asked how good it was , because it was what it was only wine from someone's basement . (who cared) . The way it was supposed to be?

Many years later I took my first trip of four to Italy , . It felt like home away from home......what about the Italian wines? 
you become so accustomed to them in the modern world we really do not stop to think. where did they get their start.? . So were going through some of the areas of Italy. there Types of wines that they make and which are Distinctive only unto them.,., I think you'll know some of the player. as well as Some of the areas. ., but let us go slow. an
if we can take this tour together.. and learn more  . Okay.


About Italian Wines


----------



## joeswine

*Act I scene one*

Italy is home to some of the oldest wine producing regions in the world and is the world's second-largest wine producer behind France ,. That is only if you asked the French, Italian, one is exported around the world and is also extremely popular in Italy, imagine that. 10/25 on the world wine consumption list by volume 42 L per capita consumption. Grapes are grown in almost every region of the country and are more than 1 million things under cultivation. 

N
Etruscans and Greek settlers produce wine in Italy before the Romans started their own vineyards in the 2 second century BC . Roman grape growing and wine making was prolific and well-organized , pioneering large-scale productions and storage techniques like barrel, making and bottling . G

Not remember the last little trip to Georgia their history of wine making was 400 BC . So these are the new kids on the block Etruscans and Greeks and then along came Romulus and Remus, in a New Age began. Now before we get too deep into a history lesson, which I do not want this to be ,but still above the wine regions.

Italy's 21 regions correspond to the 20 administrative regions .understanding of a time line becomes clear with an understanding of the differences between each region, their cuisine reflects their indigenous wines, and vice versa. The 36 dOCGA wines are located in 13 different regions but most of them are concentrated in Piedmont and Tuscany. Among these are the appellations appreciated and sought after by wine lovers around the world , Barolo,barbaresco, and Brunello di montalcino affectionately known as the killer bees ..
How many of you out there Made the above wines ? in Italy there are wine regions and districts within the regions and they in turn have wonderful wines within them .We will get to that.

TheThe regions, roughly from northwest to southeast 

aosta valley,lomdardy,trentino-alto adige/sudtirol
piedmont ,friuli-venezia gulia,veneto,emilia-romagna
liguria,tuscany,marche,umbria,lazio,abruzzo,molise,
campania,basilicata,apulia,calabria,sicily,ans sardinia.
Now that should give you an idea of how vast the wine making effort is in Italy . What will attempt to do is take some of the regions that are most familiar with you and your wine making pick out the ones that are made in that area given description to the winds and you tell if the wines that you have made sound like the descriptions I know from trading wines for members on this form that wines like amarone ,valopoliceia, and others were all quite good, stay with me will take a tour through wine country, Italian wine country.............


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## Flame145

Joe I'm ready for the italian wine tour. Great job on this thread, love reading it and it is very informative. Thank You. A Presto


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## joeswine

*Flame145*

THANK YOU FOR THE REPLY,IT SHOULD




































BE INTERESTING ,HOPE MY THREADS HAVE BEEN INFORMATIVE AS WELL AS SOMEWHAT EDUCATIONAL..STAY TUNED...


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## joeswine

*looking at italian wines*

 Although Italy has many wine growing regions let take a look at the most prominent of them.


 The region of Tuscany(tosocana) ,around the city of Florence (firenze) ,is famous for producing red wines,primarily from the sangiovese grape.the most famous wine from Tuscany is the most famous wine from all Italy Chianti. you will also hear of other famous Tuscan wines,including brunello,montepulciano . there are also the non-super Tuscan,experimental red wines that are often highly regarded.


The region of Piedmont,in northern Italy close to the french border,produces the greatest variety of fine wines in Italy. this is where the red barolo and barbaresco come from,as well as the sparkling asti.

 lastly, the regions around Venice (venezia/.veneto)are well known for producing whites wines ,including Soave and pinot grigio.


So we"ll start our tour in Tuscany and the fine wine s that they produce,.

Stay tuned............


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## joeswine

*Chianti-- black rooster*

 CHIANTI IS A SANGIOVESE- BASED RED WINE AND IS EASILY THE BEST KNOWN WINE OF ITALY THE REGION OF CHIANTI IS BROKEN DOWN INTO SEVERAL SUB-REGIONS;THE BEST KNOWN ARE CHIANTI CLASSICO AND CHIANTI RUFINA. IF YOU SEE A BOTTLE OF CHIANTI AND IT HAS A BLACK ROOSTER ON IT THAT'S A SYMBOL OF QUALITY,A CHIANTI THAT IS LABELED (RESERVA) MUST HAVE BEEN AGED AT LEAST THREE YEARS.

LETS LOOK AT YEAST: LALVIN-BOURGOVIN RC 212
IS A GOOD CHOICE FOR HEAVIER STYLES OF WINE IS LOW FOAMING MODERATE FERMENTED WITH SPEED AN OPTIMUM FERMENTATION TEMP. BETWEEN 68 AND 86 DEGREES AND HAS GOOD ALCOHOL TOLERANCES TO 16%, .........GOOD ALL AROUND RED WINE YEAST.

LIKE MOST ITALIAN WINES CHIANTI IS ESPECIALLY GOOD WITH PASTA,VEAL AND HEAVIER FARE.
THE WINES OF THE TUSCANY REGION ARE AMONGST THE BEST IT THE WORLD AND THE FOODS ARE TO DIE FOR ,SITTING IN A TOWN SQUARE,MARVELING AT ALL THE HISTORY AROUND YOU AND THEN HAVING A GLASS OF WINE ,CHEESE,OLIVES AND CRUSTY BREAD IS A MEAL BY ITSELF.ANTIPASTO IS A KEY ELEMENT IN ITALIAN FOOD USUALLY SOME FORM ,ALONG WITH A ANOTHER GLASS OF WINE ,HAVE YOU EVER TRIED RIPASSA,GOOD FIND ONE IN YOUR LOCAL WINE SHOP EXCELLENT...............................SECOND PRESSING


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## catador77

Joeswine, you look like an expert on Italian wine. A few days ago, in a store, the manager told me about wine Italian wines Sange di Giuda, which apparently he sells a lot for women. I was looking over them in google and there is considerable controversy about the grapes used for its production. You know them? Thanks!


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## joeswine

*Catador77*

NO NOT A EXPERT BUT I DO LOVE ITALIAN WINES AND COOKING,SO I'll TELL YOU WHAT I DO KNOW.


THIS WINE STYLE COMES FROM NORTHERN ITALY IT'S MADE FROM THE CROATINA GRAPE,THE WINE ITSELF IS LIKE A PARTY WINE SWEET AND FRUITY IT IS A OFF BEAT WINE VERY DARK ALMOST BLACK IN COLOR,A LITTLE BUBBLY AND SOMEWHAT SPICY,A GREAT PARTY WINE TO TRY ,IT PARES NICELY WITH SPICY /HOT FOODS, 


THANKS FOR THE VISIT WHAT DO YOU THINK OF WHEN GOOD WINES GONE BAD?


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## Pumpkinman

Joeswine,
Having lived in Italy, and been around Italian wine all my life, it is nice to see your passion for great Italian wines!


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## joeswine

*Heritage*

IT'S WHO I'AM ,ITS WHAT I DO AND HAVE BEEN THERE MANY A TIME,FEELS LIKE HOME.THERE IS NO BETTER FOOD ON THIS PLANET ,LIKE ITALIAN FOOD.........FOR A ITALIAN

WE NEED TO CONTINUE...........HOPEFULLY TONIGHT................................


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## tonyt

Congrats Joe


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## joeswine

*Tuscany region*

THE MANY GREAT WINES OF THIS REGION ALSO INCLUDE BRUNELLO DI MONTALCINO,A COUSIN OF SANGIOVESE THAT IS GROWN IN MONTALCINO.THE GREAT BRUNELLO'S ARE AGED AT LEAST FOUR YEARS OR FIVE .

VINO NOBILE DI MONTEPULCIANO,IS A BLEND OF SEVERAL GRAPES,OF WHICH SANGIOVESE IS DOMINANT.

CAN YOU SEE PATTERN WITH THE SANGINOVESE GRAPE BORN AND BREAD TO THIS REGION,ANY GOOD DISH OF PASTA OR HEARTY FARE IS EXCELLENT WITH THESE WINES.

AS WITH CHIANTI,GOOD QUALITY YEAST IS REQUIRED TO EXCEL THE AROMAS AND DEEP COLOR AND FLAVORS OF THESE WINES.

NEXT WILL TRAVEL TO THE PIEDMONT AREA OF ITALY.....................EXCELLENT...


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## joeswine

*great wines of italy cont.*

PIEDMONT,the region of Piedmont ,in northern Italy close to the french border,producesthe greatest variety f fine wine in Italy. 
​
Barolo,this wine,made entirely from nebbiolo,is a very rich and complex red wine,if occasionally too tannic and astringent. the barolo region is tiny.
.
 Barbaresco,more nebbiolo-based wine,and a bit more balanced than BAROLO;ANOTHER TINY REGION.

 GREAT FOOD SURROUNDS THIS REGION,FROM PASTA TO SEE FOOD AND CHEESES TO CRY FOR.......TO BE CONTINUED


CAN YOU SEE HOW THE DIFFERENT REGIONS HAVE DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS YET ARE SIMILAR?..............


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## Rocky

_"THE WINES OF THE TUSCANY REGION ARE AMONGST THE BEST IT THE WORLD AND THE FOODS ARE TO DIE FOR. SITTING IN A TOWN SQUARE, MARVELING AT ALL THE HISTORY AROUND YOU AND THEN HAVING A GLASS OF WINE, CHEESE, OLIVES AND CRUSTY BREAD IS A MEAL BY ITSELF."_

I will second this, Joe. And don't forget a little salt on the Tuscan bread along with olive oil, shaved garlic and black pepper.


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## Pumpkinman

Rocky, when I lived in Pisa, within 2 blocks of us, there was a panetteria (bread shop), Salumeria (deli type store, but soooo much more), Cafe', on our way to school in the morning, we could smell the fresh breads being baked, the cheese from the Salumeria, the espresso being brewed at the cafe', makes my mouth water just thinking about it.
We would stop and get what they call Schiacciata, literally means smashed or squashed, it is basically pizza dough that is worked until it is about an inch or two thick, they put dimples in it with their fingers, a light coat of olive oil (obviously extra virgin) is brushed on, and sea salt is added...it doesn't sound like much, but right out of the oven on the way to school....WOW! Or even better, The folks at the salumeria would slice it open and put a little Prosciutto or Mortadella and Provolone on it....now that's a sandwich!
Growing up, wine was always on the table, we were encouraged to taste it with dinner from a very young age.


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## joeswine

*iM HUNGREY*

 FELLOWS THE FOOD OF ITALY CAN BE VERY SIMPLE YET OUTSTANDING IN EVERY ASPECT,i REMEMBER LUNCH IN THE PIAZZA,WITH CAPPUCCINO, PROSCIUTTO AND CHEES,E MELLON ,AND WATCH THE WORLD GO BY,THIS i THOUGHT MUST BE HEAVEN,DINNERS WERE A FEAST OF 5 COURSES,STATING SOUP,FOLLOWED BY ANTIPASTI,FOLLOWED BY PASTA,FOLLOWED BY MEAT,FISH, POLO AND THEN DESERTS AND LETS NOT FORGET THE WINE..BY THE END OF THE FIRST TRIP i NEEDED TO LOSE 5/7 LBS.


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## joeswine

*Italy*

 NOT ONLY IS A FEAST TO THE EYES, BUT AS WELL AS A GASTRONOMIC ADVENTURE WITH THE FOOD THE WINE AND THE CULTURE, AS I COULD SEE , YOU BEEN THERE, IN FLORENCE STANDING ON THE BRIDGE OF GOLD AND WATCHING MY WIFE BURN A HOLE IN OUR CREDIT CARDCARD, JUST MARVELING AT THE HISTORY WE WENT BACK TO our hotel THAT NIGHT WE HAD TO TWO BOTTLES OF WINE BOTH WHITE,. I HAD A PLATE OF SPAGHETTI WITH LITTLE GARLIC and oil,. MY WIFE HAD A PLATE OF RAVIOLIS AND BLUSH SAUCE, BOTH OF THE WINES CAME FROM VENITO, I REMEMBER WHERE THEY CAME FROM BUT COULD NOT REMEMBER THE VINEYARD , crisp and VERY FLAVORFUL, LIGHT AROMA WHAT A NIGHT ,BUT I GUESS YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.


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## Pumpkinman

Joe,
When I lived in Italy, a goodd friend took a group of us to a place that i'll never forget, it was way back in the woods, a small place that didn't look like much, but let me tell you...you talk about 5 courses, this was no lie, there was sooo much food, it just kept on coming and coming, cheese, antipasto, fruits, chick, fish, meats, made in various ways, pasta......the wine never stopped! 3 hrs later they had to roll us out of there...lol...


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## bootlegger

if it goes bad ,distill it. Make good shine out of bad wine it all good then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## joeswine

*?????????????????????????????????????*

Its a thought bootlegger,that's one way!


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## joeswine

*Utaly recapped*

SO FAR WE TALK ABOUT THE TUSCANY REGION,WITH THEIR CHIANTI,BRUNELLO AND MONTEPUCIANO ALL GREAT WINES UNTO THEMSELVES.THEN WE MOVED ON TO PIEDMONT,WHERE NIBBIOLO IS THE KEY WINE MAKING RED,IN BAROLO AND BARBARESCO EACH WINE HAS A LITTLE DIFFERENT BALANCE AND FROM ITS ON REGION.


LETS NOT FOR GET THE GREAT WHITES OF THIS REGION,ASTI,WHICH IS MADE FROM MOSCATO ,IT IS SWEETER THAN A FRENCH CHAMPAGNE,ASTI SPUMANTE OR JUST SPUMMMANTE AS IT IS ALSO CALLED .

MOSCATO,IS THE ITALIAN VERSION OF A PARTY WINE IT CAN BE MADE DRY,SWEET OR AS A DESERT WINE,THE GATEWAY WINE FOR PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY DON'T LIKE WINES?THE ORIGINAL PARTY WINE.,WINES OF THIS REGION ARE DISTINCTIVE IN THERE OWN RIGHT,IF YOU NEVER TRIED MOSCATO OR ASTI GIVE YOUR SELF A TASTE TREAT..TRY ONE.


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## joeswine

*The italian bounce?*

WHERE GOING TO BOUNCE AROUND ITALY AND TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT THE REGIONS AND THE WINES .

northern Italy. Valle d- aosta,Lombardy,liguria and Piedmont,regarded by some as the significant Italian wine region,barolo is a big contender here,barbaresco another red wine made from nebbiolo,also Merlot and Cabernet,some say Merlot is the king of wines.

we already know Piedmont is the home of asti a great sparkling wine made from moscato grape,pinot grigio a light dry white wine crisp with citrus note,Soave from veneto near Venice floral fragrance popular wine there and abroad,the super tuscans as they are loving refers to,Chianti,mostly sangiovese,,

and for my part the true king of king wines from near by vaploicella amarone made with air dried grapes,predominantly the carvina variety,and fermented out to dryness for the amarone.it is a concentrated ,complex and frequently beguiling,a taste of wine heaven.

have you ever tried a ripasso DI vapolicella. this is done by runn9ind valpolicella once made through the lees of a recioto or amarone wine,take my word for it if you can't afford a bottle of true amarone say starting at $55-THEn TRY THE RIPASSo AT $18-20 ,what a treat,then use that as a bench mark when you make your own..will continue later I'm getting hungry for some...will continue with central Italy


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## joeswine

*Italian wine s to try*

IF YOU EVER HAVE THE URGE TO INVEST INN A GOOD BOTTLE OF ITALIAN WINE FOR DINNER,HERE ARE A FEW,TO LOOK INTO.


2007 TEDESCHI,AMARONE DELLA VALPOLICELLA $50.00

2006 TOMMASO BRUSSOLA,AMARONE DELLA VALAPOLICELLA CLASSICO $55.00

2008 LA COLOMBAIA,AMARONE DELLA VALPOLICELLA $45.00

2008 ALLEGRINI AMARONE DELLA VALPOLICELLA $65.00

 THESE ARE SOME OF THE BEST ,THERE ARE EVEN BETTER,MY THEORY IS i FIRST BUY A BOTTLE OF WINE THAT i WANT TO MAKE AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE IN THOSE PRICE RANGES LISTED ABOVE,BUT A WINE WITH A DECENT REVIEW,THEN TASTE ,MAKE NOTES AND NOW i HAVE THE BASIC WINE CHARACTERISTIC IN MY HEAD AND HAVE TASTED IT. this is now my taste profile I'm shooting for ,EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY i CAN THEN IDENTIFY WHAT PART OF THE WINE FLAWS i HAVE OR DON'T HAVE.


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## Pumpkinman

Joe, I couldn't agree more, Amarone is my favorite, have you tried Masi Amarone?


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## joeswine

*amarone*

 I don't remember but a club member of ours works for the catholic church and travels to Rome quite often,she bought me back a different one ,that I wrote about but, Tomaso,is my favorite and the one I keep stocked at least one bottle for myself  ripasso styles are excellent,and affordable,keep one of those on hand to have with my olives ,cheeses and salamis,along with tomatoes and ricotta cheese,and of corse a great french baggott! while Im cook dinner


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## Pumpkinman

Nice! What time is dinner?


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## joeswine

*when ever!*

 just let me know ahead of time and my casa your casa,we will have good wine and food the timing is yours,always pumpkin man.


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## Pumpkinman

Joe, you rock bud, likewise, there is an open invite here as well.


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## joeswine

*Italian wines*

ITALIAN WINES AND THERE ORIGINS AT A GLANCE


THE REGIONS ARE ,ROUGHLY FROM NORTHWEST TO SOUTHWEST.
AOSTA VALLEY ,PIEDMONT,LIGURIA,LOMBARDY,FRIULLI,VENETO,EMILIA,TUSCANY,MARCHE,UMBRIA,LAZIO,ABRUZZO,MOLISE,CAMPANIA,BASILICATA,APULIA,CALABRIA,SICILYAND SARDINIA,VAST GROWING REGIONS, DISTINCTIVE ONE FROM THE OTHER AND YET DIFFERENT IN FLAVOR BUT WITH STILL A COMMON BOND.......LETS SEE WHAT THEY HOLD.

A GREAT WHITE FROM FROM THE PIEDMONT REGION NOT COMMON TO THE STATES IS ARNISE,CRISP AND FLORA VARIETY,WHICH HAS BEEN GROWN THERE SINCE THE 15TH CENTURY. .SEE IF YOU CAN FIND ONE IN YOUR LOCAL WINE SHOP. 

GARGANEGA- THE MAIN GRAPE VARIETY FROM WHICH SOAVE,THIS IS A CRISP ,DRY WHITE WINE FROM THE VENOTO WINE REGION OF ITALY.IT'S A VERY POPULAR WINE THAT HAILS FROM THE NORTHEAST OF ITALY AROUND THE CITY OF VERONA.....SOAVE.....A GREAT WHITE TO ENJOY ANY TIME

THW GREAT WINES WILL CONT.


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## joeswine

*Super tuscans*

 THE KING OF ITALIAN GRAPES AND THE BACKBONE IN MANY OF THE MODERN "SUPER TUSCAN'S"


ITALY'S CLAIM TO FAME ,THE PRIDE OF TUSCANY.TRADITIONALLY MADE, THE WINES ARE FULL OF CHERRY FRUIT,EARTH AD WOOD.IT PRODUCES CHANTI (CLASSICO),MONTALCINO,BRUNELLO,MONTEPULCIANO,MONTEFALOCO ROSSO AND MANY OTHERS.SANGIOVESE IS ALSO THE BACKBONE OF MANY OF THE ACCLAIMED "SUPER TUSCAN'S",WHERE IT IS BLENDED WITH BORDEAUX VARIETALS (CABERNET SAUVIGNON,MERLOT AND CAB.FRANC AND TYPICALLY AGES IN FRENCH OAK BARRELS ,RESULTING A WINE PRIMED FOR THE WORLD MARKET AS WELL AS THE AMATEUR WINE MAKERS.

OAKY,HIGH -ABV -AND RIPE ,JAMMY,FRUIT FORWARD PROFILE....

WE HAD A WINE MAKER IN OUR GROUP WHO USE TO WIN GOLD AFTER GOLD METALS ACROSS THE COUNTRY FOR HIS ITALIAN WINES, AND WHAT HE LEARNED HOW TO DO WAS TO BUY GOOD QUALITY KITS AND BLEND THEM TO CREATE HIS OWN SUPER TUSCAN,AND THEY WERE ALL GOOD,BLENDING WITH A KIT,GREAT IDEA..............................


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## joeswine

*A timewine tour*

Of all the times I have been in Italy I cannot remember ever having at that cup of coffee, piece of pastry, desserts, lunch and or dinner its always been a wholesome experience a delight for the taste buds and a treat for the senses ,. We will continue our trip through the wine countries of Italy I hope you will stay with me in 2013 when I hope to display pictures that is my goal ,. The wines of Italy are extensive an impressive . Not all of them are great. Some are excellent, and some are for everyday .



So until we meet again. Thank you for following me 

Merry Christmas to alland a safe and healthy new year


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## joeswine

*Sagrantino*

 SAGRANTINO, IN NATIVE TO UMBRIA, IS ONLY PLANTED ABOUT 250 HECTARES,, BUT THE WINES PRODUCED FROM IT ARE EITHER BLENDED WITH SANGIOVESES AS RUSSO D MONTEFALCO OR AS A PURE SAGRANTINO, AND THEY ARE WORLD-RENOWNED. INKY PURPLE, WITH RUSTIC BROODING FRUIT AND HEAVY TANNINS , THESE WINES CAN AGE FOR MANY YEARS .

 EVERY NOW AND THEN I WOULD TREAT MYSELF TO A WINE AND WELL DO IS DUE TO OUR ARE LOCAL SPIRIT SHOP, IN THIS CASE IT WAS CANALS AND JUST BROWSE UP AND DOWN THE AISLES TAKING MY TIME TO READ WHERE THE DIFFERENT WINES CAME FROM NOW FOCUSING ON A CERTAIN AREA IN THIS CASE WAS ITALY . I LOOKED UP AND DOWN THE AISLE LOOKING AT THE LABELS READING THEIR REVIEWS AND I PICKED UP ONE THAT I THOUGHT MIGHT INTEREST YOU IT WAS $13.99 AND IT IS A EXCELLENT RIPASSO,. REMEMBER THAT NAME OR TERM ? 

 OKAY, LET US EXAMINE THIS WINE THE LABEL READS SOLANE IS A PRODUCT FROM CORINA AND RONDONINELLO THESE GRAPES GROWN IN THE HEART OF THE VALPOLICELLA AREA . . FOLLOWING TO A CAREFUL VINIFICATION IN A CONTROLLED FERMENTATION , IT WAS RE-FERMENTED ON THE FRESH MARK OF POTENTIALLY DRY WHOLE GRAPES TO ENRICH FRUITINESS- DELICATE AROMAS AND TO EXTRACT SOFTER TANNINS. . THE WINE IS AGED IN WOOD FOR ABOUT 15 MONTHS. SOLANE IS NOTED FOR ITS RICH AND FULL BODY STRUCTURE AND IS SUITABLE FOR LONG AGING . 

… NOW DOES NOT THAT SOUND YUMMY, FOR 1399 THIS IS AN EXCELLENT WINE TO DRINK AND GIVE YOUR TASTE BUDS A CHANCE TO TRY SOMETHING OUT-OF-THE-BOX , TAK TAKEN OUT TO DINNER WITH, OR JUST OPENED UP AND RENTED A HOME AN EXCELLENT LINE FOR ALL OCCASIONS AND PRICED RIGHT .


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## joeswine

*The tour continues*

Question, how many of you have tried some, the wines we have talked about so far ?

Vermentino, . This is also wine that comes in juice buckets , vermentino is widely planted in northern Sardinia and also found in Tuscany and lugurian, coastal districts . Wines are particularly 
.popular. accompany fish and seafood.. .If I knew how. I will post the amount. Italy.,. Sardinia . and Sicily,. With all the regions and between.. This way you be able to better. you can download a map of it yourself. a it would do the same thing. Interesting to see. HOW these WINES INTERMIX with their food. MAKES sense though DOESN'T. vermentino IS an excellent table as are most of the Italian white maybe not as renowned as Pinot Grigio it is still great wine UNTO ITSELF has anyone here made vermentino ? N


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## joeswine

*Piemonte italy*

 A great variety of wines come from this region and one especially ,BLACK MALVASIA.

 THIS WINE IS A STAND ALONE AND YOU CAN BUT IT BY THE 6 GALLON BUCKETS HERE IN NEW JERSEY,BASICALLY A FILLER WITH SANGIOVESE FOR CHANTI,HOE EVER IT CAN BE PART OF A SUPER TUSCAN TRIO,PAIRED WITH SANGIOVESE,BLK.MALVASI,AND MERLOT TO FORM A GREAT WINE .


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## Boatboy24

joeswine said:


> IF YOU EVER HAVE THE URGE TO INVEST INN A GOOD BOTTLE OF ITALIAN WINE FOR DINNER,HERE ARE A FEW,TO LOOK INTO.
> 
> 
> 2007 TEDESCHI,AMARONE DELLA VALPOLICELLA $50.00
> 
> 2006 TOMMASO BRUSSOLA,AMARONE DELLA VALAPOLICELLA CLASSICO $55.00
> 
> 2008 LA COLOMBAIA,AMARONE DELLA VALPOLICELLA $45.00
> 
> 2008 ALLEGRINI AMARONE DELLA VALPOLICELLA $65.00
> 
> THESE ARE SOME OF THE BEST ,THERE ARE EVEN BETTER,MY THEORY IS i FIRST BUY A BOTTLE OF WINE THAT i WANT TO MAKE AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE IN THOSE PRICE RANGES LISTED ABOVE,BUT A WINE WITH A DECENT REVIEW,THEN TASTE ,MAKE NOTES AND NOW i HAVE THE BASIC WINE CHARACTERISTIC IN MY HEAD AND HAVE TASTED IT. this is now my taste profile I'm shooting for ,EVEN IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY i CAN THEN IDENTIFY WHAT PART OF THE WINE FLAWS i HAVE OR DON'T HAVE.



I like the way you think. I've been wanting to make an Amarone after reading so much about them here. I treated myself over the holidays and fell in love. I "only" spent about $40 on the one I bought. As luck would have it, Christmas day WTSO had an Amarone for $25! Free shipping on 4 or more. I happened to be standing next to my brother-in-law and father when I saw it (both wine lovers). So we went in on an order of 4. Now that I know what they are like, I'll be making an Amarone in 2013 for sure.


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## Pumpkinman

I've been buying from WTSO for some time now, cant beat the prices! I've been trying to sample the wines that I either want to make, or wines that I'm interested in.
If anyone doesn't know what WTSO is, WTSO.com is an online store that focuses on selling wine at 30%-70% off original retail prices. I've purchased more than one bottle of wine that was originally listed for over $60.00 for $24-$30!, this was after spending over $65 for a wine at a local store that we didn't like... Signing up is free, and you will get daily email updates on wine available.
I highly recommend checking it out!


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## joeswine

*wines*

will look into it,thanks.AND THANKS FOR FOLLOWING MY THREADS..................


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## joeswine

*boat boy 24*

Amarone de valpolicellia

a delight for the senses and taste buds ,nothing like it in the wine world,to me,by trying it in this venue you will understand what it should taste like and when you make it you'll see how close you can come to it at home ,,enjoy and thanks for following my threads.


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## Pumpkinman

Joe,
I think it is really interesting, the differences between the Old school wineries and the newer wineries or younger vinters, I share your passion for Amarone.
Joe, did you ever get my message back to you about the trade? I haven't followed up, I apologize, I've been fairly busy.


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## joeswine

*Trader joe' wine*

YES AND IT WILL BE OUT TO YOU NEXT WEEK,SORRY FOR THE DELAY, I SENT YOU A EMAIL ,BUT IM NOT THAT GOOD AT THOSE THINGS,if YOU cant' send in return right now not to worry ,just enjoy,and let me know what you think,that's the important part.


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## Boatboy24

Pumpkinman said:


> I've been buying from WTSO for some time now, cant beat the prices! I've been trying to sample the wines that I either want to make, or wines that I'm interested in.
> If anyone doesn't know what WTSO is, WTSO.com is an online store that focuses on selling wine at 30%-70% off original retail prices. I've purchased more than one bottle of wine that was originally listed for over $60.00 for $24-$30!, this was after spending over $65 for a wine at a local store that we didn't like... Signing up is free, and you will get daily email updates on wine available.
> I highly recommend checking it out!



don't mean to hijack the thread, but I agree. I buy from them regularly. The other nice thing is that they carry stuff I don't generally see in local stores - who have their normal brands and not much else. Like I said, the Amarone I bought was 25 bucks!


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## Pumpkinman

Joe,
You rock my friend! I owe you a bottle as soon as they are ready!

I agree about WTSO, great site, I like the idea of being able to keep tasting great wines at great prices!


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## joeswine

*italian winre tour cont.*

Italian wine tour cont...


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## joeswine

*A little history*

 ALTHOUGH,vines had been cultivated from the wild grape for millennium,it wasn't until the GREEK colonization that wine-making took off.VITICULTURE was introduced into SICILY and southern Italy by the Mycenaean Greeks,and was well established when the extensive Greek colonization transpired around 800 BC.with the defeat of the Carthaginians by the Romans in the 2nd century BC that Italian wine production began to further flourish.LARGE -SCALE ,Slave RUN PLANTATIONS SPRANG UP IN MANY COASTAL AREAS AND SPREAD TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT ,IN AD92,emperor Domitian was forced to destroy a great number of vineyards in order to free up fertile land for food production..........to be continued......

remember the thread I rote about wine making in what is now GEORGIA.........wine making has a long and vast history.......................we've just started ours- in time terms!..stay tuned..


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## joeswine

*Italy continued*

H*istory is on it's side, Italy to some of the oldest wine producing regions in the world it hasovertaken France as the largest wine producer. italian wine is exported around the world and also is popular in Italy . Italians( on the world wine consumption is by volume) they like there wine .grapes are grown in every region of the country and there are more than 1 million vineyards under cultivation .*

* The cultivation of grapes goes back a long way to the second century BC ...................*


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## joeswine

*Change of pace*

WERE GOING TO LEAVE THE ITALIAN WINES FOR A WHILE AND TRAVEL DOWN THE DESERT WINE TRAIL..IT SHOULD BE INTERESTING.::


STAY TUNED..............::


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## joeswine

*Desert wines anyone?*

TO SOME WINE PEOPLE DESERT WINES ARE WAY TO SWEET AND THAT'S OK TO EACH HIS OR HER OWN,BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CATEGORY OF DESERT WINES IT'S NOT REALLY THAT LARGE IN IT'S SELF,BUT THE DESERT WINES ARE UNTO THEM SELF'S A DELIGHT TO THE PALATE AND A TASTE TREAT AS WELL,SO LETS TAKE A LOOK FIRST AT WHAT MAKES A DESERT WINE ,A DESERT WINE!

THERE IS KNOW SIMPLE DEFINITION FOR A DESERT WINE AROUND THE WORLD IT FALLS INTO MANY CLASSIFICATIONS,IN THE UNITED STATES FOR EXAMPLE ANY WINE OVER 14% alcohol by volume ,which includes all fortified wines-and is taxed more highly as a result .this dates back to a time when the united states wine industry only made desert wines by fortification,but such a classifications outdated now that modern yeast and viticulture can produce dry wines over 15%without fortification,yet German desert wines can contain half that amount of alcohol. remember the thread German wines,this ties in,continue.......in the UK a desert wine is considered to be any sweet wine drunk with a meal,as opposed to white fortified wines like sherry drunk before a meal and the red fortified ports or Madeiras drunk after a meal..are you confused yet....most fortified wines are regarded as distinct from desert wines,but some of the less strong fortified white wines,such as Pedro x sherry and muscat De Beaumes-de-venise,are regardas honorary desert wines.........are you thoroughly confused now?

let that soak in for a while and then will continue on types of desert wines......


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## joeswine

*Natural sweetness*

So let's start taking a look at dessert wines and I know there are a lot of you out there who have made them, let's see what it took to get it there, pay attention. 

In the absence of other techniques, makers of dessert wine have to produce the sugar in the vineyard. Some grape varieties, such as Muscat, Ortega naturally produce a lot more sugar than others. Prineville conditions have a big effect on ultimate sugar levels – this is felt by leaving the grapes on the vine until they are fully ripe and by greening harvesting and pruning to expose the young grapes to the sun. Green harvesting reduces the number of bunch is one of vine early in the summer, so that they sugar production of the leaves is divided between fewer brunches. Unfortunately you cannot control the sun, but a sunny here can help sugar levels a lot. The semisweet auslese wines and a German wine classification are probably the best examples of this approach, most modern winemakers perceive that their customers want either fully dry or properly sweetened dessert wines, so leave it to nature is currently out of fashion. But most of my Muscats of ancient times properly made this way, including the famous concertina of South Africa.

Capitalization honey was added to wine in Roman times, for sweetness and to increase the final strength of the wine. Perhaps surprisingly today sugar is usually added to boost Alcoa levels of flabby, unripe wines rather than for sweetness, although a degree of capitalization is permitted and wines of many countries. German wines must declare whether their natural or not, in any case, capitalization is banned from the top tiers of German wines.

SUSSRESERVE, the reserve of sweetness is a German technique in which unfermented must (grape juice ) is added to the wine after fermentation. This increases the sweetness of the final wine, and dilutes the alcohol somewhat – in Germany the final wine can contain no more than 50% of reserve by volume.SUSSRESURVE, allows winemakers to fully ferment the wine without having to worry about stopping fermentation before all the sugar has gone. Since sulfites are used to stop fermentation, this technique reduces the uses of sulfites. Seuss reserve is used by other makers of German style wines, particularly in New Zealand.

So you see, there are other ways of back sweetening wine without adding sugar, or at least sugar in its raw state. I've stated before somewhere in this archive of text that sometimes you need to think outside the box because other wine makers who are true winemakers in the industry do this as an everyday affair a professional affair if you would. So back sweetening to dry and adding sugar isn't the only way and if you think about it if you backswing too dry and add the juice of which you are you fermenting from then you're not only adding sugar in the form of grape juice but you're also adding flavor back into the wind and sleet that's why some of the most popular dessert wines in the world are done this way, just a little fruit for thought (forgive the pun) had to use it.

Next take into consideration what type of wines that you're accustomed to calling dessert wines, I know you made some of them so were going to take a look at them... Stay tuned.

Remember –* the difference between capitalization and back sweetening........... now you're going to see how it comes into play ............. good talking with you digest this and will continue.*


----------



## joeswine

*Raising wine*

Once again, we're going to take a quick peek back into the history of wine because no we are, we first have to know where we came from, or in this case, where this came from.

In case the ancient Carthage, a sweet wine called passim was made from air dried grapes, and across the Malta channel from the side of Carthage summer wines are still made, called Muscato passito di pantelleria. Such ones were described by the Romans, in northern Italy is home to a number ofpassito wines, where the grapes are dried on straw, or racks, or hung from the rafters. These wines include, then vin santo(into which almond biscuits are traditionally dunked) and the sweet redrecioto della vapolicella(which stands up the chocolate better than most wines) across the Alps, the French make straw wine, rhone andalace, the Spanish start off making a raising wine with Pedro ximenez before fortifying, the Cypriots have their ancient commandaria and there has been recent experiments with the style in South Africa and the US.

Now that was something about, that's real history as far as man could read man has made wine in one form or the other but do see how the last paragraph kind of that feeds on the Ameron style of winemaking, which is, grapes drying out on straw beds until a ready to make the wine.

*now* that was a lot to digest, I leave you with this. Read it if you will try and understand it and will continue* really go onto Noble rot.*

**


----------



## joeswine

*Remember the difference*

 Remember the difference, between backs sweetening and capitalization.

 Remember the difference, between metabolic sulfite and potassium sorbate.

 Remember the difference, between SG and ABV.

These are things we use every day as winemakers remember the difference.........................


----------



## joeswine

*Getting back on track*

*most 7°C or 19°F before the grapes for ice wine can be picked. As such, temperatures, some of the water in the grapes freeze out, but the sugars and other solids remain dissolved into the remind remaining juice. If the grapes are pressed while frozen, a very concentrated must can result which needs special yeast and 

Some of the most famous dessert wines, are made from moldy grapes, this is called noble rot wine, imagine waiting for the grapes to start to go bad to use them, in itself is a chance again. But when it's done right it can make the best dessert wines in the world. Unfortunately, the fungus is very fussy about the conditions required for such noble rot, it is too damp, the same fungus causes the distrust of gray rot. So, winemakers walking fine line between getting it right or not. Typically, noble rot wines were created by accident-with the Hungarians and the Germans have similar stories of how the harvest was delayed for some reason, but the moldy grapes were harvested anyway and the rest was history.

Ice wine, most wine laws require temperatures to be at a long time to ferment. The resulting wines are very sweet, but with lots of balancing acidity. The minuscule yields mean they tend to be very expensive. The most famous ice wines are in German eiswein am from Canada ice wine.

Sometimes you just get lucky, I happen to be with a wine distributor, who not only distributes fresh juice but grapes as well. Knowing these people as well as I do, I was privy to come into their office and overheard a conversation, it went like this, yeah, okay I understand, how much do you have? How will you be delivering it? At what price per gallon? And it will be real?. The conversation was over. I was politely informed that they were in great luck and was able to get a a small tanker full of Canadian ice wine. I looked at the man who was having the conversation with me, and asked him is this fresh squeezed. He said yes. They will be delivering mid-November, then he looked at me and said, do you think this would be too late, I replied no. Just put out a special memo to everybody you have a mailing list and it will be gone. And so it was the delivery, came in and it went just as quickly.. So you see, even the heart of the deep red wine making country, they do have a sweet tooth.

To be continued ............ thanks for hanging in there...............................................*


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Joe..this is great information. You should have your own youtube channel


----------



## joeswine

*crafting a enexpensive kit*






To add color and fruit to the wine, some winemakers will blend their Sangiovese with Cabernet Sauvignon _(pictured)_.


The high acidity and light body characteristics of the Sangiovese grape can present a problem for winemaking. The grape also lacks some of the color-creating phenolic compounds known as acylated anthocyanins.[10] Modern winemakers have devised many techniques trying to find ways to add body and texture to Sangiovese — ranging from using grapes that come from extremely low yielding vines, to adjusting the temperature and length of fermentation and employing extensive oak treatment. One historical technique is the blending of other grape varieties with Sangiovese, in order to complement its attractive qualities and fill in the gaps of some of its weaker points. The Sangiovese-based wines of Chianti have a long tradition of liberally employed blending partners—such as Canaiolo, Ciliegiolo, Mammolo, Colorino and even the white wine grapes like Trebbiano and Malvasia. Since the late 20th century, Bordeaux grapes, most notably Cabernet Sauvignon, have been a favored blending partner though in many Italian DOC/G there is often a restriction on the amount of other varietals that can be blended with Sangiovese: at Chianti the limit for Cabernet is 15%.[3]
Other techniques used to improve the quality of Sangiovese include extending the maceration period from 7–12 days to 3–4 weeks to give the must more time to leach vital phenols out of the grape skins. Transferring the wine during fermentation into new oak barrels for malolactic fermentation gives greater polymerization of the tannins and contributes to a softer, rounder mouthfeel. Additionally, Sangiovese has shown itself to be a "sponge" for soaking up sweet vanilla and other oak compounds from the barrel. For aging the wine, some modern producers will utilize new French oak barrels but there is a tradition of using large, used oak _botti_ barrels that hold five to six hectoliters of wine.is the most important item, sanitizing, sanitize everything the wine comes in contact with,* sanitizing,*, still required to add water, and my, case I have to add water for I have a well you know it's still go still through the filtration process. The pipes are still copper still leaches off, so I'm going to used already bottled filled water. I don't want anything in my wine that isn't supposed to be. You notice sometimes is read the threads that they have a funny taste in my wine or mineral taste or metallic taste, all of the above or some of that can be attributed to the quality of the water that you using some of it can be attributed if you're making a fruit wine to the fruit, but were not so, I'm using filtered water to give myself the balance of the volum 

Okay, what is this all about? I thought it would be interesting to not only to use dialogue in the manufacturing of a kit as well as the photos, I'm going to do a sangiovese wine kit . It's just the basic kit but a kit will none the less.

This kit contains enough concentrate to produce 6 gallons of wine, two small bags of French Oak, and the usual suspects of chemicals potassium sorbate,bentonite, metabolic sulfite and Red Star premier cuvée. As far as finding agents go. We do have a Benoite but we also have Chitosan as a finishing agent.

There are basic steps 1 to 3 and four and step one e. It also asked that the juice is between 72° and 75° do not proceed unless the juice is in this range But Where Using Red Star yeast placental of the package and see with the yeast manufactured prescribes temperature range for its yeast type, let's read this it proves interesting.

Red Star premier cuvée active dry wine yeast preparation, this envelope contains nothing yeast to make up to 5 gallons for best results, dissolve yeast by adding about 1/4 cup of water at about 100 to 105 degrees. After opening, the you should be used within one month and Under refrigeration. Okay take a look at the red stars characteristics for this yeast – the yeast has a good tolerance to ethanol and free sulfur dioxide, and ferments to dryness. So far so good. If very good producer of phenols, urea, and fossil oils. Recommended for Reds, whites and especially champagnes. Reported to perform while re-starting stock fermentation's. It has good characteristics, its fast, clean, and most natural fermenter offered by red Star ferments best between 45 and 95° 5 g for 5 to 6 gallons of wine. So were at 5 g is anything else out there that would be better? Well, there are a couple that had some of the same characteristics.. This would be the best bet, so will stay with this yeast. No change there.

As in most kit wines. It asked you to check your starting specific gravity, we all know what that is right? If not, ask.* This is on stage I, *all my tools are in place, I read my directions am ready to start.

Stay tuned............* are you ready---------are you newbies with me?
*


----------



## Neviawen

We're ready! Let's get making wine!! =-)


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese*

A long ways back I discussed the partnerships of wines and how you can defined them,this is the most perfect case in point,go back and read the characteristics of this wine and how it crosses the boundaries of the ITALIAN wine making culture ,read how the wine makers tried to achieve a better mouth feel by crossing different grapes and grapes skins ,or just trying to achieve a different taste all together,we are going to do that by adjusting the kits weaknesses and making it ,,it's strength,not all the time this can be achieved depending on the quality of the kit your using,but what makes this one good to start with is it's- weakness,it's a blank palate to work with ,the last time I did this was with a amarone and after aging it turned out to be a very good tasting wine............


----------



## joeswine

Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kit from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase.


----------



## joeswine

Few more pictures to wrap up the last post.) These ones are of me stirring in the toasted oak, pitching the yeast, and what it looks like in the bucket. 
At the end, don't forget to write the Specific Gravity on your tag and hang the tag on the bucket so you don't forget.This is the end of the basics,once primary is completed,the fun begins...

stay tuned.


----------



## joeswine

*Fermentation*

And now a boring process starts fermentation, right after that were going to tweak this wine and turn it into something very special.. Go back and read all the steps..


----------



## joeswine

Ok, today is 7 days from when we started this kit. We took our specific gravity reading and it is at 1.028. Slowly it's fermenting dry. 
I also put up a picture of what the bucket looks like right now. You can see there are some bubbles and oak chips floating on top. It smells great! Stay tuned- it will be going into the carboy for secondary fermentation soon..


----------



## Neviawen

For those watching the process of this new Sangiovese kit, I wanted to send you a neat little clip Joeswine and I put together. We put it on youtube, too! As we post more on this kit we will make more mini videos to demonstrate the process. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjR4AmgcYRU

Cheers! 
Neviawen (Kate)


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## Rocky

Katie and Joe, thank you very much for an informative view of the process. Very well done.


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## joeswine

thanks rocky,she knows how to put the pics together,it's really getting to be fun.


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## joeswine

Sorry this was so late getting posted. I had a few hectic weeks. I did manage to take the pictures to keep up with the process. Here we go- it’s getting interesting!

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out.


----------



## joeswine

*And now we wait*

THIS IS THE PART WHEN THE ELEMENTS WE PLACED INTO THE MIX HAVE TO WORK OUT WHAT ROLES THEY PLAY AND THEY CONTROL THE OUT COME...STAY TUNED, ALSO ON CLEANING UP THREAD- KATIE AND i started a new thread on ZESTING.................in pics.


----------



## shoebiedoo

Great topic Joe. question, what is the advantage of putting the raisins in secondary vs primary? How long will you leave them in? And last but not least, you mentioned you were adding oak powder but the picture showed tannin. Is there a real difference. OK one more, In a different conversation, you talked about adding powder during primary A LOT of it. Here you're using 4 tablespoons. Why the reduction in quantity? 

Thanks again Joe


----------



## joeswine

*Break down*

 The additive I use it powdered Oak tannin, that is what was in the bag. I used 4 tablespoons of this in the secondary, that's a lot. It goes a long way . I also added more at the end of the secondary fermentation ,, . I am hoping that it will add to the compositional makeup of the sangiovese


 Raisins in the secondary, it is like adding an additive in flavor to the sauce. It will also create a secondary fermentation small thow it may be it will create a secondary fermentation, as the alcohol from the primary rehydrates and saturate the raisins, the raisins will give their essence , extract up and blend with the wine. If you notice the picture you will see in the bottom of the carboy a mixture of tannin and raisins, some people think it is hard to get out ,a little work never bothered me, do not chop them up. That is a waste of time because the alcohol will do a extraction. Now what happens to the SANGIOVESE it's going to rest. This is a very new wine. I believe it is like an eight week kit which you barely on two to three weeks in the making, so it is that time to set and in the meantime the Oak will add texture to the body of the wine. At least that is the plan, raisins, in the secondary are the only way to go- in the secondary. In my opinion is only a conflict other wise and no benefit to the winemaker, but that is just my opinion is the way do my thing.


 On the- thread cleaning- up Kate and I are going to start a whole new process of zesting in a pictorial format............ stay tuned


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## dangerdave

Good info, Joe. Thanks!


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## dangerdave

Ok, Joe. Great pics, by the way.

Someone asked, but I couldn't find the answer in the thread. How long do you leave your wine on the raisins in the carboy before racking?


----------



## Runningwolf

Ok Joe and Kate, I've been missing the last two pages of this thread. I've got two things to say right off the bat. Number one is "WOW" and number two is "Kate is doing the typing" LOL. You two are doing an outstanding job. I am going to be following this exact same process in about a week. I have ten pails of Chilean coming. After my primary fermentation everything will be done in five gallon batches (I will follow your lead of 5g in a 6g carboy). The extra gallon from each batch will be all blended together for future toppings and a final port. The raisins are ready, The oak styx are standing by for long aging, I just need to get the oak and tannin for the secondary. Once again, thanks for your contributions.


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## joeswine

*The process*

Thank you Dan and Dave, the process itself is very simple to follow both you guys are smarter than the process. The work is on in the secondary ,heavy pound the raisins in the secondary and powdered Oak of whatever type you choose also in the secondary do not go overboard with the powdered Oak, you can always add more later if you need to. Actually most of the writing is mine and the pics are hers, and some cases is my verbiage for writing ,it is a team effort. Right now SANGIOVESE is setting maturing this Thursday her and I will do a tasting in search of the characteristics of the wine itself, then we will let you know where were at, I have always stated that you can make any standard kit a decent wine, maybe not a great wine, but one that stands out above with the manufacture created to be and putting your stamp on it.. Stay tuned


----------



## dangerdave

Hey Joe! *How long do you leave the raisins in your wine!*


----------



## joeswine

*rasins in the wine*

depending on the style of wine your making.

fresh juice,in secondary at least 1 month or until you see signs that fermentation has comes to a halt.You can always leave them in longer its all a matter of taste,some reds will not benefit,remember that.

kit,depends on the type of wine,none the less you will see secondary fermentation start very fine bubbles and then none,your done .

My sangnovese is almost completed now we will taste test this Thursday evening and let you know how the tweak is coming.thanks for following.yours JP


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## dangerdave

Thanks, Joe. As usual, I'll make it to taste. I've got three wines I'm trying this way now (since you insisted so strongly). A coastal white with mangos soaking, a cab sauv with currants, and a petit syrah with rasins. They were all dry by the time I racked them onto the fruit. We'll indeed see how these tweak up! I love trying new techniques! 

Thanks for the continued inspriration, Joe!


----------



## hocke230

dangerdave said:


> Thanks, Joe. As usual, I'll make it to taste. I've got three wines I'm trying this way now (since you insisted so strongly). A coastal white with mangos soaking, a cab sauv with currants, and a petit syrah with rasins. They were all dry by the time I racked them onto the fruit. We'll indeed see how these tweak up! I love trying new techniques!
> 
> Thanks for the continued inspriration, Joe!



Dave - won’t the mangos rot and go bad? Or are you using dehydrated fruit?


----------



## joeswine

*Think outside the box*

 WHEN EXPERIMENTING WITH BLENDS IT CAN WORK OUT GREAT OR SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN OR NOT AT ALL,IT'S HIT OR MISS,OR SPOT ON,SO WHICH EVER THE ENDING AT LEAST YOU HAVE TRIED TO PUT YOUR STAMP ON THE FINISH PRODUCT AND MADE IT YOURS.

THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX


----------



## dangerdave

hocke230 said:


> Dave - won’t the mangos rot and go bad? Or are you using dehydrated fruit?


 
They were dried fruit from the bulk food store.


----------



## dangerdave

I agree totally, Joe. Experimentation is the key to becoming a good wine maker. Anyone can follow directions and make a good wine from a kit. For the newcomer, this is essential to the learning process. However, when you have moved past being a "kit-maker"---you will _know_ when that time has come---you can take a cheap kit and make it good, or take a good kit and make it great! Finally, creating your own recipes using grapes or fruit (or maybe both!) is really the pinnacle of wine making.

Once you "step outside that box" (as Joe would say), you start to think of what might be possible. A kit becomes a canvas on which you can paint a picture of flavor of your own creation.

Dang, I'm starting to _sound_ like Joe!


----------



## hocke230

dangerdave said:


> They were dried fruit from the bulk food store.



Makes total sense...


----------



## joeswine

Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kite from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase.


----------



## joeswine

(Just so everyone knows why they are seeing these pics again, we pushed everything forward because we are going to give an update tonight on our Sangiovese Kit. )

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out.


----------



## joeswine

Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation: 
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged. 
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at. 
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content. 
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster.


----------



## pjd

joeswine;420510[FONT=Calibri said:


> Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. [/FONT]


 
Joe, Did you really add 4 tablespoons of oak tannin powder?


----------



## joeswine

*oak tannins*

YES,first it will add body and texture to the wine ,give it stability,it will also add some oak flavor .when added in the beginning you taste a lot of oak,but that will subside after a short will and the mixture will stabilize and become rich while the oak strength will then slowly dissipate.

I enjoy thinking outside the box yet still trying to stay within the para matures of the wines description,some people ask why you need to do all that ,just make what is natural in nature,but today's nature isn't giving us home wine makers the best it can,it's either cut as in raw juice or concentrated as in a kit ,I tried to define where the line is between what should be and what is,that's just my why.

yours.repectfully jp


----------



## Boatboy24

Very good reading on this kit so far. I had never heard of the "age line" before. Just so I'm clear: your post states you have 5 gallons of wine, but I believe you started with 6. Have you lost an entire gallon in the process so far, or was some of that saved off for topping up later? Thanks.


----------



## joeswine

*dropping back*

THAT was correct started with 6 gallons fermented down about 1/2 gallon so instead of topping off I would rather rack down to a five and have the original for topping off if needed ,or use it in another wine.

Now I have a five gallon at the correct level ,see!


----------



## dangerdave

That's what I do. I'm with Joe on this one. I am very much for "racking down". Six gallon fermenter, to a six gallon secondary, to a five gallon carboy for clearing. Any extra gets placed in a smaller container (half gallon jug, for example), for use in topping up during clearing stage.


----------



## joeswine

*Going off line for a week*

GOING OF LINE FOR A WEEK.....................


----------



## sdelli

Joe..... Can you tell me if I am putting a wine thru MLF is it ok to add the raisins and tannin in the secondary with the MLF culture? Or wait until it comes out of MLF?


----------



## joeswine

*sdelli*

once your in the secondary no need for mlf,at least in my oppion,the rasins should cause a secondary on their own,got it?


----------



## sdelli

I do... I have a couple kits I will play with that way. I also have some Chilean juice I want to put thru mlf....


----------



## robie

sdelli said:


> I do... I have a couple kits I will play with that way. I also have some Chilean juice I want to put thru mlf....





Hope I am not reading your post wrong. You are never ever to put a wine kit through MLF. It is balanced in such a manner that it is not required. Also, any sorbate associated with a kit can ruin the kit if it goes through MLF.


----------



## Runningwolf

I agree with Robie not to do a mlf on a kit. However if you wish to do it on the Chilean juice that would be ok. It's something I am still playing around with. Again along with what Robie said if you start a mlf, you cannot use Sorbate unless if you tested the wine and are positive it went 100% of the way through mlf. If it didn't finish and you use sorbate you'll ruin your wine with a geranium smell. There is no fixing it. 
With that said, in the past it was rare for someone to sweeten this type of wine anyways which meant there was no need for the sorbate. Now a days, California is sneaking sugar into some of there reds. They can leagally do it up to .5% rs and not report it on their label. NOTE: I said .5% not 5%


----------



## joeswine

*SANGIOVESE tasting*

It has now been a couple months since Katie and I started the picture thread the* SANGIOVESE* kit .Thursday will do a tasting and and move forward to the bottling and the final touches of the wine ,go back and read pictorials for you newbies .................. Say tuned


----------



## dangerdave

*THIS THREAD HAS BEEN TEMORARILY HIJACKED*

_OK, PAY ATTENTION FELLOW WINEMAKERS!!!_

I first off, want to thank Joe for this great thread. He has taught us all how to make better wine---especially me! He has inspired me to look past the ordinary, and think outside of the norm. Let me explain.

At the Luva Bella Luncheon in early April, along with some of our favorate forum winemakers (you know who you are!), I picked up some of the Chilean juice buckets that had just come in. One of them was six gallons of a nice dark Cabernet Sauvignon. Now, I have advanced to the point in my own winemaking experience that I just can't leave a batch "unmessed-around-with". All of my kits get tweaked, modified, or enhanced in _some_ way. For me, it could be no different with these juice buckets. The juice smelled wonderful! The color was rich and dark. I knew just by looking at it that this one was going to be nice! In addition, this one was going to be for my birthday celebration---my 50th---coming up this September. As a heavy red, I realized that it might still be a bit "young" by the end of summer, but what the heck, I'd drink some anyway, and put the rest up to age appropriately.

Upon returning from northern Ohio with my juice buckets, I started them up immediately. After moving it to my basement Lab, I strapped one of my brew belts around the bucket of Cab Sauv and let it sit. The EC-1118 yeast (already present in the bucket) did it's thing. With a starting specific gravety of 1.090, it took a perfect ten days for the must to drop to 0.992. Just for good measure, I let it sit for three more days. The finished SG was 0.990 at 74F.

Now, Joe enters our story. Having been a regular lurker on Joe's threads, I piped in with a few questions about Joe's technique for introducing fruit (or raisins) and tannin (or oak) to a secondary or post fermentation batch of wine. Joe, courteous as always, answered my inqueries with zeal! I recalled Joe writing, "..._raisins, in the secondary are the only way to go- in the secondary. In my opinion is only a conflict other wise and no benefit to the winemaker_..." and "[in] THE ENDING AT LEAST YOU HAVE TRIED TO PUT YOUR STAMP ON THE FINISH PRODUCT AND MADE IT YOURS. THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX." Well, I didn't have a box, but I had a bucket. So, I _thought outside the bucket_!

In preparation for this day, I had stopped at a bulk food store near Marion, Ohio on my trip to Luva Bella. One of the things I had purchase was two pounds of dried currants. After the Cab Sauv was dry, I racked the wine into a six-and-a-half gallon carboy holding the dried currants and about half a cup of medium toasted French oak chips. For added personalization, I topped up the carboy with half a gallon of my "Black Lab" dry blackberry wine (2012). This was the 20th of April (420 for all you hippies!). Three weeks past as the wine sat and blended with the added flavors.

On May 12th, I gave the wine a first tasting. It totally blew my mind. Absolutely unbelievable! And I am not exaggerating in the least. I like red wines---well, all wines really---but reds mostly. In deference to my lovely wife, most of what I have made to date is white and/or sweet. Just last Fall, I had begun making some nice dry reds for myself and the few people I know who appreciate them. I have been to many wine festivals, wineries, and tasting events over the years, but the wine I had just made was by far---for my own personal preferfence---the best I have ever had. Let me make myself clear: the wine I just made, barely a month old, was better than anything I had ever tasted. I don't know how, and I am not completely sure why, but there it is! No youth, no tartness, no bitterness, no fizz. It tastes like it was just drawn from a barrel that had sat for years in a nice cool place, aging mellowly. Remarkable! The kicker was when I had Johnna try it. She hates reds---literally. If there was nothing in the world to drink but red wine, she would die of dehyration. After she tasted a small sample of this, she looked shocked, and said it was "very good". She further remarked that something like this might get her to like red wine. That's like Christian Schmucker telling you that your grape jam is _delicious_!

Thank you, Joe. You were _absolutely right_. I'm sorry I ever doubted you. My oak and raisins are hereby relagated to the secondary from this day forth! For those of you who have not tried this---or think that primary application is the best---give it up! You have to try it!

I'm done with my hijacking. You can have your thread back, now.


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## Boatboy24

Dave,

Glad to hear it's working out well for you. I'm picking up my Carmenere and Malbec juice and grapes tomorrow and will be following Joe's advice with oak chips in secondary. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

Jim


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## roger80465

This is a very interesting thread. I am being convinced to make the leap of faith and try this method.

I just took shipment of Cru Select BC Meritage and that came with dried cab/merlot skins and a pack of elderberries. I'm thinking about going half and half - add the cab/merlot in primary and the elderberries in secondary. What do you veterans of this method think - too conservative (AKA cowardly)? What would you do?

Roger


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## joeswine

*Think out side the box*

thank you ,Mr. d ,that's a nice complement ,all wine makers, once they have gotten their feet wet ,and have advanced and develop the confidence in there abilities should evolve in there work, I do believe every wine master out there whether at the largest vineyard or smallest at one time or another has to think out side the box, weather its to put his or hers touch or trademark ON the wine or to move it in a direction it needs to advance to (or loose it),we all THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX ,one time or another.

thank you once again ............


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## bakervinyard

Dave, Did you do or are you going to do a MLF ? Also did you chop the currents or add them whole ? My Chilian juice is coming in next Wednesday. Can't wait. Bakervinyard
PS Thanks Joe great thread. I'm learning alot.


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## joeswine

*rasins in the wine*

leave them whole............... BAKERVINYARD


ROGER..ELDERBERRIES IN THE SECONDARY,,I've DONE THIS BEFORE,IT WILL TURN OUT QUITE HERBAL AND FLORAL,BUT WITH A CHARDONNAY.


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## roger80465

Sounds like a plan Joe. Thanks for the advice. Just trying to imaging what 'herbal and floral' will be like in a Meritage. Should be interesting.


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## joeswine

*roger*

this is going to have a very romantic taste to it, with a Victorian feel, should be good, let your taste buds this time think outside the box.
yours jp


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## Pumpkinman

> once your in the secondary no need for mlf,at least in my opinion,the raisins should cause a secondary on their own,got it?


One thing I want to point out to the newer folks, and those who aren't clear about Malolactic fermentation, as stated a few times:
*you do not want to put a kit through a MLF*, one of the reasons that kits are so popular is that Kits are already balanced and made so that you can make a good wine with little experience and equipment, by putting a kit through MLF you will no longer have that balance and the wine can become very "funky" real fast, a good rule of thumb is if you add sorbate, do not put your wine through MLF, it can take on bad tastes and smells.

By adding raisins to the secondary (something that I've been doing thanks to Joe's advice) you can put your wine through a secondary fermentation, a nice slow fermentation that has really given the few kits that I've tried nice character and taste, it will not put your Kit through Malolactic Fermentation, nor is it a substitution for Malolactic Fermentation, I believe that a few people were getting confused.

You can absolutely add raisins or currants to your Juice Pails and then put it through MLF as these are not wine kits and have not been balanced as kits are, but the addition of raisins or currants will not start a MLF, you usually need to start it with the various Malolactic Bacteria available, and there are times when MLF will start on its own if the conditions are right.

This is in no way meant to discredit Joe, I have a lot of respect for Joe and all of the help he gives everyone, I've tasted his wines and was totally blown away! 
I was sent a PM about raisins and MLF and thought that I would try to clarify it for those who still had questions.


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## joeswine

*Pumpkin man*

I do not want to confuse anybody so feel Free any time to step in . I personally do not believe in MLF and the type of work that we do or at our level I have really never been successful with . I believe that the product that we are handed can and should be exercised to its fullest advantage,one should never do MLF a kit . I agree. E


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## dangerdave

bakervinyard said:


> Dave, Did you do or are you going to do a MLF ? Also did you chop the currents or add them whole ? My Chilian juice is coming in next Wednesday. Can't wait. Bakervinyard
> PS Thanks Joe great thread. I'm learning alot.


 
Joe gives very good advice. Currants are very small when dried, so chopping them would be difficult absent a food processor. Joe also suggested leaving the raisins whole, which I put in my Petit Syrah---which I will be checking on tomorrow. I will let you know how that one turned out. I also have a Chilean muscatel that got a dose of mangos after fermentation. Gotta taste that one tomorrow, too.

I am excited about this technique. It seems to have a lot of advantages for the finished wine. Once again, thanks, Joe. You've got a new fan!


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## shoebiedoo

I just tried this on my Chilean syrah and it seems to have worked out great I still have to oak it but that will have to wait it's turn (for the barrel)


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## eblasmn9

There seems to be several of us in Joe's fan club. I started a Cellar Craft Showcase Amarone 40 days ago. It came with a really nice 2.6 k super grapepack. I switched out the yeast to bm45 from the ec1118 and did a yeast starter. Fermaid k was added halfway through fermentation. I added a pound of raisins whole in the secondary as well as oak powder as Joe suggested. I really like this thinking outside of the box. Joe helpful as he is, suggested I add a couple more tablespoons of oak powder when I rack off of the clearing lees which I'm about to do now. I will carboy age it for 6 months then run it through the almost neutral by then Vadai barrel for about 4 months maybe longer if I get another barrel. I'll bottle age it for a year then start the splits to see where its at. This one already has great aroma as well as mouth feel. I can't wait to see how it turns out. Thanks Joe.


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## joeswine

*eblasmn9*

sounds delicious all ready, remember patients is in the wine makers grasp, let it take it's time to be all it can be, and it will reward you in flavors quality .


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## sdelli

Well Joe.... I bit. Here is a picture of my Chilean Malbec and Merlot in the secondary fermentation with a pund of raisins in each and some Oak Tannin. The primary has a Sangiovese starting up. Was thinking of a mlf too but might not be able because of the sulphate from the raisins...


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## jswordy

eblasmn9 said:


> There seems to be several of us in Joe's fan club.



I'm in! You know, one time I sent him a bottle of my blueberry but now I am scared to send him anything else after tasting his wine. 

Just kidding - sort of....


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## joeswine

*sdelli*

don't confuse the difference,*the raisins will do there own thing, a true MLF is all together, different ,got input so far so good, if I might make a suggestion, take the top off the bucket and replace it with a towel, this in my oppion will allow more oxygen to created a fuller fermentation, the rest looks fine, what are you going to do with the headspace after the secondary is completed ?rack it down or?*



* SO FAR SO GOOD=WHAT DO YOU THINK?*


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## sdelli

I will do that with the bucket.... Thanks. Just like you I run the secondary a little larger with Argon head gas... I will rack it down to correct size in a few weeks or month. Thanks again!


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## joeswine

*Thinking outside the box*

That is good planning on your part, you will see the difference in the wine . I assure you be patient with it and you will reap the rewards. 





Yours .................. JPS


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## joeswine

*process moved forward*

we want to review this process before we move onto bottling for the newbee's.....................PROCESS IN REVIEW.


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## joeswine

*Process in review*

BEFORE WE MOVE ON REVIEW SOME OF THE PROCESS THAT GOT US TO THIS POINT.


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## roger80465

You're killin me here Joe. I am waiting (not so) patiently for your update. Don't keep us in suspense


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## joeswine

*Sangiovese*

SANGIOVESE, the final prep the bottling should be done on Thursday . Stay tuned for pics.


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## sdelli

What is the best way to add a taste of peach to your white wines? Like a Pinot Grigio?


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## dangerdave

*sdelli*, I can only say what I have done. I have not tried Joe's method and used peaches post-fermentation for added fruit flavor. What I have done, is used natural peach extract with great success. Start with very little---one ounce of extract in six gallons---then work your way up. Give some time between tastings, as the peach flavor will blend with the wine and grow. If you are just looking for a "taste", be very careful not to use too much.

Good luck!


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## Deezil

sdelli, 

Another of Joe's tricks is to make an extract - in this case you would want a couple of peaches and a fifth of high-proof neutral alcohol (everclear or vodka).. Allow the peach slices to sit in the alcohol for a few weeks, then strain the solids out and add this in the same method as Dave explained; this is a homegrown 'extract'.


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## joeswine

*excellent*

Excellent,. That is one way to make it and it does work ,do not, however using commercial peach extract they do not work. What I would also recommend if you could find some pure peach juice concentrate, and work with that, what I would do is if you have a 6 gallon batch divided in half in the third leave it like it is the other half place in the peach concentrate see what or how it taste, now normally the peach concentrate I am talking about is frozen do not use of peach juice unless you get peach concentrate juice then by all means try that but only try and half of the volume that you have . Some people like to try things in batches of 1 gallon I cannot seem to work with a gallon is not the right balance, then once I have that balance in the half then I know what a need to balance out the other and that is all done in one primary bucket it sounds like a lot, but it is really not, you understand? Thanks the following thread. D


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## saramc

Pure peach concentrate here, available over the phone by the pint... http://www.homewinery.com/cgi-bin/concen.cgi. For a peach extract, use dried peaches, the outcome is much more intense.


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## sdelli

Thanks! Gona try the fresh peaches in everclear.... Me, I drink red wine... But my wife is a peach freak....


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## Deezil

sdelli said:


> Thanks! Gona try the fresh peaches in everclear.... Me, I drink red wine... But my wife is a peach freak....



You can take the excess peach-everclear, after getting the flavor profile where you want it in the wine.. A 2:1 sugar : water ratio, brought to a boil on the stove, makes a simple syrup that you can sweeten the peach-everclear up with, to make a 'cello' of sorts.. Serve over ice or with some carbonated water/7-Up/Sprite


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## dangerdave

What a great idea! I have made a cirtus zest with lime, lemon, or orange in Everclear, but not from fruits. I'll have to try that one with the peaches. Thanks, everyone for more great ideas!

I'm making my own extracts from now on!


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## joeswine

*Think outside the box*

There is no level to the creativity a winemaker has just his own his or her own limitations, it pays to think outside the box. If you look at all the home brewer's out there and all these exotic wine/ beers , you know for a fact the manufacturers are thinking outside the box . They have to to create sales we have to to be creative in our own structure. Thanks for following the thread..............................E


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## joeswine

Final step to our Sangiovese kit: Bottling!

Before we started, we got all the tools out of our toolbox that we would need. We also sanitized all our bottles and had them ready.
What we had ready before we started:
Sanitized Bottles
Funnel
Ferrari Bottle Filler
Long Stirring wand
seals
corks
Packets of Sorbate and K-Met that came with the kit
my bottle sealing tool (don't know what it's called but it holds the seal on top the bottle while I dip it into boiling water), notice we didn't filter, that's because we racked down to clear.

Next, we dumped the 2 packets of ingredients into the carboy and gave it a stir w/ the wand (I didn't take a picture of this, you all know how to just give it a stir.)

I then placed the Ferrari bottling tool on top of an empty bottle, put the larger hose into the carboy and applied suction to the smaller hose to start the syphon. Once the wine starts to flow I place this smaller hose into an empty bottle just so it's out of the way. 

What is great about this tool is that once a bottle is full it automatically stops the wine flow so that it doesn't overflow. You will see that it gets to a certain level in the little chamber and then it stops filling. When this happens you put the Ferrari tool into the next bottle and proceed. 

When you have all bottles filled, you cork them. Once they are corked you seal them.

Fit the seal over the bottle, I use a tool that holds the seal on top the bottle for me as I dip them into boiling water. I dip it in, give it one twist real quick and pull it out. (Literally takes 2 seconds and it's sealed.)


----------



## joeswine

*Last post w/ labeled bottle*

And last but not least, the finished product. Once done we put our label on. Since this was a Joe/Kate production we decided to make it our Co-Op Wine. 

Cheers!


----------



## Runningwolf

Very cool Joe!


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## roger80465

I'm sure you did a tasting during bottling. Tell us about the flavors. Anything surprise you? Anything you would do differently?


----------



## joeswine

*End results*

TRUTH be told this wine if you put it in a spirit shop or state store will hold it's own,with the best of them.


PROFILE, great body, fruit up front tannins in the middle and dry wine at the finish, great legs ,you could not want more from a ITALIAN WINE, it even has AROMA UP FRONT...........NOW THA'S A PLUS we constructed this wine like a sauce, building structure as we went along,we started march 7nd actually finished last week. Getting our presentation together for this thread, I have always believed we could take a average wine kit and make it good or great, this one proved it out, have a couple of 375's to ship wolf man ?or ?


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## vernsgal

Thanks Joe, this has been a great read!


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## Boatboy24

Good stuff Joe! I love your label. What do you use for labels?


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## joeswine

*Labels*




THIS label comes via Gino pinto's, see their web site click on labels and follow prompts .......good stuff....good people to do business with...I also buy my labels from the toy store, George has a good selection and they are prompt and reliable......

I don't do my own ,just don't want to learn something else,to old for that ,it's just easier and if I don't like the results ,they make correction without a charge.....


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## tonyt

Okay Joe, give us your step by step on the Sangeovese.


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## Reilly

Joe 

I noticed that you added #3 metabisulphite & #4 sorbate at bottling. The WE kits that I have done have them added approx 17 days after pitching the yeast in the stabilising and clearing stage. 

Can you explain why you waited until bottling to add them ? 

What is the benefit ?


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## joeswine

*Process in review*

I always add the chems at the end of the process and with the final clearing agent,(allowing for the final clearing) all prior to the bottling process, because I need to see what my changes have done to the process, and when I know that the changes are effective then in most cases ,I chem,fine and filter (not always ) and bottle with in a reasonable time frame. This is just my way of making sure the wine is where I want it to end up.

TONYT ..go back to this pages thread and the process is all there, for the right side of Texas...jp


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## tonyt

Okay Maestro Joe, I went back and read the entire Sang. process, I should have looked back farther before posting. Questions/Comments: The oak tannin you use must be quite different from the Tancor Grand Cru that I use, Tancor only suggests about a tablespoon per six gallons. Also I didn't see your notes on secondary, did you added raisins in secondary? I can't wait to try that on my next kit. And I have never heard of the "age line" interesting, I'll start noticing that now.


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## joeswine

*adding the oak powder/raisins*

adding the oak to the secondary is like layering a sauce, first you do the basics, then you enhance, my version of the additions will always be different then that of the mfg...lets say your kit comes with oak chips, you add them into the primary,right,until completed, but in the secondary is were the transformance begins, In my version I place the powder in the secondary to start to build the structure and texture of the finished wine.

RAISINS,in the secondary, once again primary is completed the basic wine is ready for transformation in to something else, or you can keep it on it's charted course.raisins in the secondary (1lb. per.6 gal.),they will start a second fermentation on their own, very small bubbles the raisins should rehydrate and give off their essence after a while the bubbles will subside and the transformation is complete, remove at will, and allow to set for a week, then move on to next phase of the wine making process, as normal.


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## joeswine

*sangiovese the circles complete*






For all of you who have been following this thread, go back and review the pictures go back and review the verbiage go back to the very beginning of the thread when we started the preparation moved on through to the bottling and the final label ,. This was an interesting journey a lot of the stuff together and for that I say thank you, Katie and I worked hand-in-hand to make this tutorial as easy and simple as possible for the beginners and hoping that in some way we helped out some of the seniors on this winemaking form, doing wine my way is not always easy and it does not always work , but when it does and it does more than not the dividends are very rewarding ......... G back and review the pictures from beginning to end................ yours, JP


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## roger80465

Joe and Katie - you are the best!  I have a Sangiovese on its way to me right now! I will follow your steps all the way and look forward to the results. This is exciting. I am always looking for a bargain and this seems like a great one. Keep teaching us. I think I speak for most of us following this thread and this forum, we greatly appreciate your expertise and patience with us all.


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## sdelli

First I would like to say that I have enjoyed this thread very much.... Especially since normal is hardly ever part of my life! I also must add that I currently have Chilean Malbec, Chilean Merlot and a kit of Sangiovese currently sitting in a secondary with a pound of raisins in each.. But Question now is this.... I belong to a few different forums (This one being my favorite) and have read discussions on raisins in some others.... Some concerns brought among many is the aging of the wine after the additional sugar and sulfite from the raisins has been added. I admit the verbiage got a little too technical for me and I really do not want to step on your thread with the quotes... But I guess my question is what type of repercussions could I expect if any from this out of normal addition? Should it be drank faster and not aged for as many years? Will I have a clearing problem? Anything else I should know? I realize the addition of raisins was used a lot in the primary...


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## pjd

Joe and Katie, Thanks for a great tutorial. Very nicely described and documented. Now all you need to do is send me a split so I can judge the results! Just kidding! I do appreciate this information. Thank you!


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## tonyt

Sdelli. Raisins will not change the drinking time line much if any on higher end kits in my experience. For kits less than 15ltr it might add a few (6) months to the aging. But isnt that the point to make a kit better, time is part of the equasion. For higher end kits and thosr with grape packs I dont think raisins causes more aging. You should already be giving it a year or so to mature. As far as extra sulfites on the raisins thats just some folks over thinking things just rinse the raisins prior to adding then in. BTW those other forums dont have joeswine.


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## joeswine

*rasins in the wine*

 SDEELLI


go back and re-read this thread on sangiovese, it will be clear to you on what to expect and what not, follow the process and yes aging will improve this your kit to a certain extent, remember it is a kit to be consumed with in a certain life cycle, try not to over think the process,it's really simple, go back re-read then let me know what your real concerns are.

PGD.....EMAIL ME WITH YOUR ADDRESS...


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## dangerdave

Wonderful, Joe. Thank you very much. I have already incorporated some of your techniques into my winemaking. The results have been amazing. I have several reds that already taste like they have aged for years! I can't wait to sample them next year.

Thank Kate for me! You guys are awesome!


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## Neviawen

<-- Katie. I'm glad everyone enjoyed our tutorial. It's a great learning experience for me, too, working with Joeswine!

Cheers!

Katie


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## joeswine

*review*

GO BACK AND REVIEW THE PROCESS


----------



## tucson

Joe, what a great education for an old man who just started last year. I have read the entire post 3 times now and I am about to start my red.

Once again - thanks amigo!


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## joeswine

*Sanginovese review*

Recap on sanginovese post


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## joeswine

*bottling in the end*

This was an experiment in time with an inexpensive wine kit. We used a wine expert wine kit with the addition of enhancements. We added 1 lbs. of raisins in the secondary and powdered oak (also in secondary). 
We since completed this wine kit and its wonderful like we expected. We are sending out (5) 375oz bottles of this to other people on the forum for testing. We would like your honest opinion about this wine. 
Stay tuned for their comments!
Cheers,
Joe and Kate


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## geek

joe, you need to get the all in one wine pump for racking....lol/

Great job, I have a wine kit in secondary, a chilean malbec, and am interested about adding oak chips in secondary...


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## roger80465

Joe and Katie - you have inspired me to use this technique on a couple kits. I have a Williams Brewing Zinfandel in secondary now after adding 3 oz light toast chips to the primary and adding 3 tbsp tannin and 10oz zante currants to secondary. This is a 5 gallon batch so I adjusted the amounts from your sangiovese a little bit.

Also, I have that same sangiovese in primary now and will add raisins and tannin to secondary in a week or so. May consider additional oak as well but will wait and see.

I will keep everyone posted as to the progress. I'm excited.


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## joeswine

*Geek*

 I have a all-in-one pump, the reasoning behind the manual set-up is for those who still do it in the manual fashion, not all can afford a electrical pumping system, I also have a Bruno mini jet pump and a 1/4 horse lift pump with a 3/4 inch outlet can pump 6gallons in 5/6 seconds, manual is a good format at this point for this thread, but the next one will indeed show how to use a electric pump, thanks for following, send the address...................jp


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## joeswine

*Questions*

ARE, there any questions before we move on to PARTY KITS?????????????????????????????????????????????????

UP NEXT PARTY WINE KITS AND KICKING UP THE ABV.


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## geek

where's the party joe?


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## joeswine

*Party wine kits*

Coming to a carboy near you!


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## Reilly

Question for Joe. 

The WE kits I have purchased (4 total with the last being Eclipse) all have the EC-1118 yeast included. The Eclipse kit also included KV-1116 yeast which appears to be better suited for flavor and aroma. I've seen the chart regarding yeast but still have questions on when to change and to what... When you are stepping outside the box, do you often change the yeast since this appears to me the first step in creating good wine? I can understand the addition of oak an other additives for mouth feel but the yeast kicks off the party.

I hate the thought and I am hesitant of spending $100+ and 12 months of time investment to have 28 bottles of bad wine.


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## joeswine

*Reilly*

EC-1118,is all purpose,which wine kits are you starting?, with that in mind go to the charts and see which yeast applies ,if your still un certain then by all means use what they have given you, or step out side the box, as long as the yeast is better designed for your style of wine why not use it?EC1118-IS THE CURE ALL ,GOOD LOW TEMP/GOOD HIGH TEMP/CONDITIONS, can't go wrong/ and that's why they give it to you..


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## joeswine

*sangiovese in reiew*

sangiovese in review then will move on


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## joeswine

*Finished product*

THIS, has been a fun time for me and my Kate with the kit coming out I thought was a great tribute to a every day table wine in ITALY, quick turnaround. And not that expensive as kits go.....it can be done...


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## joeswine

*Vineland NJ Amateur Wine Competition Aug 10, 2013*

Vineland NJ is holding their annual Amateur Wine Competition to be held in the city of Vineland, NJ. 
It's free to enter, just send in 3 bottles. 
I am attaching the form for everyone to download.
Instructions are on the form.
I wont be entering as I will be helping orchestrate it, so now all of you have a chance to win!!








Cheers!
Joeswine 

View attachment 2013 wine competition entry form.pdf


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## Enologo

Hey Joe just read through the whole thread thanks for the great information. I skipped over this tread in the past cause it was so long and didn't have the time to invest and I wanted to start from the beginning. Since I'm a newbie and I've been so busy lately (you know how that is) I've been just skimming through the Forum honing in on a few certain topics. I finally got some time to go through it and thanks again for the different slant on things. Bravo Joe.


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## Thig

Joe, the Sangiovese was terrific. I opened it last night and gave it about 15 minutes. It is as good as any red wine I have ever purchased, the oak really comes through. Thanks for sharing.


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## joeswine

*Party wine kits*

Blackberry Lime Daquiri Wine Kit (Party Wine!)


Get all your equipment sanitized before you start

Get your kit, empty out the contents and make sureeverything is there

Empty the large bag into the primary. Add a little bit ofspring water to the bag and swish it around to get whats left over and add thatto the primary, too. (Don’t waste any!)

Top up your primary fermentation bucket to 3 gallonsexactly. (This is important that you are exact. I pre-marked my bucket just tobe sure that I’m on target.)

Take your specific gravity now. It should measure 1.10

Next, sprinkle the bentonite onto the surface of the wine. Stirfor about a minute.

Next, sprinkle the yeast on top. Don’t stir.

Cover the fermenter and let it sit for 10-14 days (or untilSG reads dry)


----------



## joeswine

*party wine kits*

party wine kits are basically a BASE wine white ,red or other and a fpac, we know what they are ,the astonishing flavor combo's these manufactures can come up with are incredible.

The only trick I do to these kits is boost the ABV. to 1.10 in the beginning and make sure they go dry, follow the process and you really can't miss, and yes they fall short of capacity in the primary stage but it works out in the end, always keep in mind these kits are made to be made and drank, honestly aging these ? the aging process they get in my house is which one my wife and her lady friends lands on first.....


----------



## Rocky

I have to make a public comment on Joe's Sangiovese. I had it with some manicotti and sausage, homemade sauce and homemade bread. It is without a doubt one of the best wines I have ever had. I can only imagine where it will be in about 2 years. Great job, Joe and Kate. You really nailed it.


----------



## joeswine

*sangiovese in reiew*

IT, was and experiment ,a good example of a average kit could with work be much better. Thanks rocky for you kind words.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Joe. Will you be documenting juice buckets this fall. Amarone ....wink wink! Cheers!


----------



## geek

I'd really wish if all of Joe's tricks are documented in a single Word/PDF doc?
I've been reading pages and pages and sometimes getting lost...

Anyone has this consolidated please??


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone*

YES, if that is what you would like ,I on the other hand would like to make a SUPER TUSCAN kit , a much greater turnaround radius and more flavorful product if you do it my way, six months or so this one will be a real Al Super Tuscan/ juice will take at least 2 1/2 years 
.to come around to some maturity.,. That will make me 67 plus ,See my point . I might not even remember what I'm doing,the coming lineup of wine is as follows have a strawberry, CRU Carmel port, a pineapple concentrate turn into a tasty wine with FPAC, regards to reconstruct a blueberry wine that is already made the problem with the wine is that it has good color good alcohol but light on taste were going to prove that case, I have also on the list in this diffusion hard lemonade rose kit this was on closeout it should be fun to try.

Come the fall when the Italian wines arrived if I get enough people who would like me to do and Amarone juice I be more than happy to do one ,also I have just completed my almond wine next week Katie and I will post pictures of the finished product with all the wine kits ( party wine ) that is ..... Stay tuned thanks for following .


----------



## geek

Joe.....a single Word/PDF document with step by step ideas/directions???????


----------



## joeswine

*Let's have a party*

Party wines, straight up process, n*othing but fun*
. Follow us, will Take be a two-week or more


The Kits are as follows , Daiquiri , Cosmo , piña colada these are all cru kit from the category lounge wines ,interesting and fun to make as well as taste .............................................


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Sounds like we need a Vote! I vote Amarone Italian Juice Bucket! If no takers, if you would guide me through the process this fall I would be internally thankful.


----------



## geek

Never tasted/tried Amarone, so this may be my next juice pail in the fall.


----------



## tucson

Beginner question: I live in Arizona and do not have access to local suppliers of "juice pails" unless they can be shipped, can they be shipped? There are some vineyards south of Tucson and some young vineyards in Willcox...

Comments


----------



## Stressbaby

Joe,

Great thread...I'm only 3/4 of the way through it. Two questions regarding your wine toolkit...

First question has to do with extracts. Have you made an everclear/vodka extract using _*bananas*_? If so, could you tell about it?

Second question has to do with adding things to the secondary...and it may be *too far *outside the box. Have you ever tried adding aroma by adding flowers in the secondary? I have some Plumeria wine going and was thinking of a "floral f-pac" if you will. I also have a lot of jasmine and thought it might add an interesting note to the Plumeria or other wine to add a few jasmine flowers to the secondary. Thoughts?


----------



## joeswine

*Stress baby*

 FIRST ,THANKS FOR READING THE THREAD, flowers for aroma, not only for aroma but add excellent taste, the experience with this that I had was, once I made CHARDONNAY to that I added DRIED ELDER BERRY FLOWERS, what a wonderful aroma and taste very classical,bouquet the Chardonnay was fruit forward style with just some powdered tannins and nothing more.

 SECOND, never tried bananas I would think they would not do well do to the vast amount of oil s they have, but that's not to say you can't try, buying a good banana extract would be faster and a better finish ,I would think, I just finished my first ALMOND WINE,using a almond extract and a two year old Chardonnay ,it is excellent blend of wine and almond flavor ,Good desert wine ,I do believe..

KEEP reading and asking+ I love the interaction, yours,JP


----------



## joeswine

*Party kits*

These are a blast to put together not only are they fun they taste great at least that's what others think not exactly my style but I enjoy seeing the faces when they taste then ,and they keep coming back for more when I'm mean then I mean my wife and her lady friends ,this is a good example of how chemistry and wine go together follow a process one more time ,Thursday were going to put a different one up. P


----------



## chrisjw

Great thread. Just finished reading every post (but only once  ). Wish I found it a few months ago, before making my last few reds.

Just some comments on some other's posting concerning extracts. If one is going to make an extract then it should be from a relatively dry source such as coffee beans, vanilla bean, ground coffee, dried fruit, zest. You can get a good extract from banana chips if they are flavorful enough but not all banana chips have lots of flavor). Making an extract using everclear on fresh fruit that has lots of water, just isn't an extract IMO, but it may make a really good flavored vodka (yum  ).

I have a question on adding raisins to the secondary. I have not tried this because some people claim that this introduces oxidized flavor (from the raisins) that may be good for young wines but that the oxidized flavor will be very noticeable after a year or two. So I am wondering if this procedure is recommended only for low to midrange kits that one should drink in the first year? Would you ever add raisins to a secondary on a kit that you intended to age for 2+ years? or for that matter, would you ever add raisins to a higher end kit that already has a grape pack? Thanks much Joe.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Just yesterday morning I started my first kit. A WE Eclipse Mezza Luna. Then I saw your creation earlier in the thread last night and am completely intrigued. The thought of making wine from a kit with no input from me is like making a cake out of box and claiming you made it. 
I am going to try this but have a few questions. I am VERY new to this so bear with me. (It all started with some Mustang grapes on my fence of the house we bought last year, but that's a whole other story). I will add white raisins and I have some tannin from Midwest supplies that simply says 'wine tannin". Will this be sufficient? Also you mention putting the cloth on top, which I did, but am I not to put an airlock top on it or stir it at all as the instructions say? 
Another thought I had, someone on a later post mentioned adding Plumeria flowers. Since my Plumerias are in full bloom, that sounds like a great idea. Should I dry them first and is it ok to add them with the raisins? And lastly, should I add the F pack and when.
Any help gladly accepted.

*EDIT: scratch that Plumeria idea. I just read they are slightly poisonous and can irritate the digestive tract.*


----------



## Stressbaby

Lori,

Jack Keller has a recipe for plumeria wine. I've made two batches now. It is wonderful. I freeze the flowers until ready for use.


----------



## RCGoodin

geek said:


> Never tasted/tried Amarone, so this may be my next juice pail in the fall.


 
I just bottled my first Amarone (kit from Amazon), and my wife and I agree it's perfect. I carboy aged it for 8 months. I think it may be the best I've done. I ordered an Eclipse kit with grape pack (the high end stuff). I'm already confident that it will be the best I've made.

I've also been reading about a Tempranillo. I bought a bottle at Costco last week. It was a 2004 for $20. It was over the top. I want to try and create it with a more reasonably priced kit.

I gotta keep on bewing, there's no stopping me.


----------



## joeswine

*RCGoodin*

leave some of the amarone for later it will get better what did you like best about it?


----------



## joeswine

*Tempanello*

THIS is and everyday Argentinian wine some what similar to a Spanish Rojo,nice wine to let age a short time only or drink young, good choice made this many a time from fresh juice...


----------



## RCGoodin

Hi Joe,

I liked it all. The smell told me right away that this was a big red. The mouth feel on the first sip was smooth and delightful. I don't recall the tastes but it matched my palette perfectly. The swirl and finish reminded me of my favorite Zinfandel. The after taste made me want another sip. It doesn't get any better than that for me.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Stressbaby said:


> Lori,
> 
> Jack Keller has a recipe for plumeria wine. I've made two batches now. It is wonderful. I freeze the flowers until ready for use.


So it won't kill me? I'd love to add the flowers to my batch. I guess I'll start plucking and freezing. Thanks for the reassurance.


----------



## joeswine

*Floral wines*

ONE OF MY FAVORITE WINES IN THE WHITE FAMILY WAS A SAUVIGNON BLANC WITH ELDERBERRY FLOWERS THE AROMA AND FRAGRANCE WAS OUTSTANDING AND THE TASTE WAS SPOT ON.THE EARTHNESS OF THE ELDEBERRY FLOWERS COMBINED WITH THE EARTH TONES OF THE SAUVIGNON,WAS A KEY MATCH UP..


----------



## Stressbaby

LoneStarLori said:


> So it won't kill me? I'd love to add the flowers to my batch. I guess I'll start plucking and freezing. Thanks for the reassurance.



No you will be fine. I do recommend that you snip off the green at the base of the flower. As you know, it has a bit of latex.

I have used 80-110 flowers/gallon in the primary depending on the plant (as you know, some are more fragrant than others). I have never added them in the secondary before, but this last batch might be a bit light on aroma, so I'm considering adding some flowers to this batch in the secondary.

They will eventually brown in the freezer. If you can add them fresh, I would consider doing that. The brown flowers aren't a problem except it can adversely affect the color.


----------



## LoneStarLori

I live in south Texas so our growing season is pretty long. I think the plants I have now will keep blooming for a while. Hopefully by the time it goes into the secondary I should have enough blooms. I think I may try drying the flowers. That tends to boost the aroma and maybe keep them from getting too brown. I'll have to test that in the next few days.


----------



## Stressbaby

Lori,
Pls post some pictures.
Here is the thread I started with the recipe I used.

Joe,
I tried the gelatin filtering on coconut. I used 1 13.5oz can coconut milk, 1/2c water, 2-3oz shredded dried sweetened coconut, 14g (2 7g packs) of gelatin. I mixed the coconut water and water together, split in two; sprinkled the gelatin on top of one half, then heated the other have to a boil with the dried coconut. I added the hot half to the gelatin/cold half and mixed it. Then I froze it in a ziplock. Then next day I broke up the chunks of ice and put the chunks in a strainer covered with cheesecloth and let it thaw.

I'm calling this a partial success. I ended up 2T of what looked like crystal clear water, but what tasted like coconut extract. The color and flavor would have been perfect for tweaks to my lemongrass wine, but I just didn't get enough. The "jello" didn't give up enough fluid when it thawed, and I believe that is because I used too much gelatin. I will retry this weekend with half the gelatin and twice the coconut. If it works, I will post pics.


----------



## joeswine

*Coconut extract*

It would seem to me a lot easier to get a 16 ounce bottle MacCormick's coconut extract and see how that taste there pretty good with their abstracts they really are and for what you're going through and I understand the process by the way I had posted that online a while back it seems to me that it could be a lot more effortless by just experimenting with the extracted self sometimes the easy way is the best way .


----------



## Stressbaby

joeswine said:


> It would seem to me a lot easier to get a 16 ounce bottle MacCormick's coconut extract and see how that taste there pretty good with their abstracts they really are and for what you're going through and I understand the process by the way I had posted that online a while back it seems to me that it could be a lot more effortless by just experimenting with the extracted self sometimes the easy way is the best way .



There are a couple of reasons, Joe.

First, the coconut extract I found was "imitation" coconut extract and I was trying to use something that wasn't "imitation."

Second, this was just as much about learning the technique, so that it could be applied to compounds for which a store-bought extract was not available...another tool in the toolbox so to speak.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Stressbaby said:


> Lori,
> Pls post some pictures.
> Here is the thread I started with the recipe I used.
> 
> Joe,
> I tried the gelatin filtering on coconut. I used 1 13.5oz can coconut milk, 1/2c water, 2-3oz shredded dried sweetened coconut, 14g (2 7g packs) of gelatin. I mixed the coconut water and water together, split in two; sprinkled the gelatin on top of one half, then heated the other have to a boil with the dried coconut. I added the hot half to the gelatin/cold half and mixed it. Then I froze it in a ziplock. Then next day I broke up the chunks of ice and put the chunks in a strainer covered with cheesecloth and let it thaw.
> 
> I'm calling this a partial success. I ended up 2T of what looked like crystal clear water, but what tasted like coconut extract. The color and flavor would have been perfect for tweaks to my lemongrass wine, but I just didn't get enough. The "jello" didn't give up enough fluid when it thawed, and I believe that is because I used too much gelatin. I will retry this weekend with half the gelatin and twice the coconut. If it works, I will post pics.


Thanks for the link. I tried to find it on Jacks website and couldn't.
My plants are a little light on blooms this year since we are under a big drought. But I think I might be able to save enough to get some wine going. I think I'll vac seal them as I collect for a full batch of wine. I am also going to throw a handful into the batch of Mezza Luna White I have when I move it to the secondary.
These are a couple of my plants. I have 4 total. 3 in pots and one in the ground. I wish I had some yellow ones but these are all white because the stems came from the same mother plant over the last 10 years.


----------



## joeswine

*Coconut extra*

I'll tell you what I'll do I will place some coconut extract imitation in with a good base wine, and then I will make a coconut extract out of coconut nut ,the way I would normally do for my base. I'm going to use a Riesling base , when they are completed I will send them to you okay, stress baby.and I agree with you it is always good to have something in your toolbox ,always.................... Respectfully yours JP.


----------



## joeswine

*Winexpert -selection kit amarone*

WINEXPERT IS GOING TO SPONCER US TO PROCESS AND COMPLETE THEIR TOP OF THE LINE AMAROME KIT ON THIS FORUM,THIS ALL CAME ABOUT WITH THE ADVENT OF THE SANGIOVESE KIT PROCESS THAT WAS POST HERE,REMEMBER?,THEY LIKED THE FORMAT AND TIM VANDERGRIFT GAVE HIS BLESSING AND CORK AND BARREL GOT THE CALL THEY CALLED ME AND WE ARE READY TO ROLL WITH THIS PROJECT,SO STAY TOON FOR A TOP OF THE LINE WINE KIT WITH A TWIST.

WINEXPERTS SELECTION AMARONE


----------



## geek

Joe, wouldn't it be better to pick their low-end kit to get it through your process?


----------



## RCGoodin

joeswine said:


> WINEXPERT IS GOING TO SPONCER US TO PROCESS AND COMPLETE THEIR TOP OF THE LINE AMAROME KIT ON THIS FORUM,THIS ALL CAME ABOUT WITH THE ADVENT OF THE SANGIOVESE KIT PROCESS THAT WAS POST HERE,REMEMBER?,THEY LIKED THE FORMAT AND TIM VANDERGRIFT GAVE HIS BLESSING AND CORK AND BARREL GOT THE CALL THEY CALLED ME AND WE ARE READY TO ROLL WITH THIS PROJECT,SO STAY TOON FOR A TOP OF THE LINE WINE KIT WITH A TWIST.
> 
> WINEXPERTS SELECTION AMARONE


 
Joe, I think it is the WE International Selection Amarone. I just picked this kit up. I'm looking forward to it since I did a cheap kit and my wife loved it and so do did I. I'm looking forward to comparing it to this high end kit.

What is Wine Expert looking for from this forum?


----------



## TomK-B

I believe Joe has it right. I'm looking at the WE website and their top Amarone is in their Selection series. That is distinguished from the Selection Original series.


----------



## joeswine

*Winexpert -selection kit amarone*

WHEN ASKED WHAT DO YOU WANT? AMARONE CAME FIRST OR ANY BIG ITALIAN RED..................THIS WAS THEIR RESPONCE

they where at the helm, but it really doesn't matter their kits are consistent and that's what does count, I have worked with grape packs before nothing new there, this kit is a top of the line kit in the winemaking world so it's a departure from what i would normally do ,this is a opportunity to work with the big boys in the wine world, and a chance to step it up a notch, geek it really is the same kit if you think about it in simple terms just different players in the deck, this will be fun ,think of it as THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. 

STAY TOONED ............WILL BE POSTING THE TASTINGS OF EARLS,COFFEE PORT AND WOLFMANS TRIO OF PORT DE-LITES.


----------



## David219

This sounds great. That kit is on my shirt list of next kit to purchase, anyway. Now it's on the top! Any idea of when you will be starting, Joe?


----------



## David219

David219 said:


> This sounds great. That kit is on my shirt list of next kit to purchase, anyway. Now it's on the top! Any idea of when you will be starting, Joe?



Meant to read "short list", not "shirt list". My shirt list is an entirely different matter...


----------



## Stressbaby

Just a note of thanks to Joe. 
Joe, this thread inspired me to reexamine each wine before I bottle it, and I had an orange wine that wasn't right. It was crystal clear, stabilized, backsweetened, but still wasn't right...it just didn't strike the drinker as _*orange wine.*_ 
Good wines gone bad to the rescue. I added orange rind, peeled with a potato peeler. A month later, the orange rind is white, and the wine is _*orange*_!
Bottling today.


----------



## sdelli

That was smart of them!


----------



## Boatboy24

This is going to be cool. Can't wait to read about it. Congratulations Joe.


----------



## roger80465

Just thinking about joeswines new venture with the Amarone. Any bets the folks at the Winexpert Secret Scientific Labs (AKA Tim V's office) tried Joe's process and liked the results? Since this is a total departure from their instructions, they certainly can't 'endorse' the idea but their actions suggest they don't want to discourage it either. Way to go Joe! I wasn't planning to make an Amarone this year but may have to change that plan.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone*

IF all goes well Kate and I will start the process starting this Thursday......................Kate is my data a photo op's person,I'm the mad scientist..............together we can put together a great package of info and visuals...........we think?..................................thanks for the input..


----------



## David219

joeswine said:


> IF all goes well Kate and I will start the process starting this Thursday......................Kate is my data a photo op's person,I'm the mad scientist..............together we can put together a great package of info and visuals...........we think?..................................thanks for the input..



Very excited to see this all documented! Thanks for this thread, Joe!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Joe, congrats on the sponsorship! Being that this will be a higher quality kit, do you think this kit will need a lot less tweaks? Also, by tasting the juice , cam you tell what the kit may need to improve it?


----------



## cimbaliw

Congratulations Joe. It's really cool that your hard work and passion have gotten you some recognition.


----------



## eblasmn9

I have made this amarone without any tweaks. I can't wait to see the Joeswine changes to this kit. Bravo, Joe.


----------



## RCGoodin

Joe, when you begin are you going to use the kit yeast, or your own choice. Would it be feasible to have three gallons with kit yeast and three gallons of other yeast?

I recently read an article about a guy that did that with a Riesling. He thought you wouldn't be able to discern any differences for at least 6 months bottle ageing. And he thought it would take a very seasoned wine taster to find differences. He was amazed at the differences he witnessed even in the fermentation and all through the process. He bottled doing a 100% of each yeast and then a 75%/25% of one and then 75%/25% of the other. His conclusion was amazing at how different each tasted. 

I thought this would be right up your alley. OUT of the BOX.


----------



## joeswine

*Winexpert -selection kit amarone*

 Where going to have to stay close to the bone on this one, but I have to say there is nothing much I would change on this one, they have ample oak, maybe I'll add some tannins in the finial layering, great package of grape skins in juice ,dextrose to make simple syrup with,(imagine that),all this will be posted starting Thursday, we will go step by step and create a wonderful wine from this mosaic of materials, and maybe a twist if needed, If I can ,I will also be running at the same time a WINEXPERT-WORLD VINEYARDS COLLECTION MOSCATO, this I will do with a twist, I have made this in the past but with fresh juice and grapes combined, this will be the first of this style from a moderately priced kit, so geek that's why the top of the line amarone,a moderate priced kit for the rest of us. This will all be posted starting Thursday data and pics.

stay toon........................Joe/Kate


----------



## geek

sounds good......


----------



## sdelli

I have that Moscato in the secondary now. Any suggestions on change? I was staying close to the directions since it was my first Moscato...


----------



## RCGoodin

Tomorrow -------------------- Let the games begin.....


----------



## joeswine

*sdelli*

NOT ON YOUR FIRST


no I wouldn't at this juncture but I might BE adding golden raisins to the secondary at least for this kit it won't hurt, just enhance. lets see what happens as we go that's the skill in it.


----------



## chrisjw

I was sure that you were going to do the oak powder and raisins and change the yeast. Yeah, how can adding raisins to a Amarone hurt! 

Joe, I am still wondering if adding store bought raisins would add an oxidized flavor in 2 years as some claim that it will. (not trying to cause a fury, just wondering your thoughts Joe). Regardless, can't wait to see what you do to this one.


----------



## joeswine

*Additions and Corrections?*

*It's all by design*, the first thing you have to recognize is that this kit comes with * luscious grape pack*, that in itself could take the place of the* raisins *also those two packages of *dexterous in this kit* once this is dissolved the *simple syrup *is going to create over a* quart of liquid sugar *, once again the *alcohols beefed-up *that's not to say that the body of the wine can still be enhanced but because I've never did a kit like this and because they are sponsoring this kit I need to stay pretty close to the process, *grant you *I probably will put in *oak powder*, this all remains to be seen , remember once we start going through fermentation approximately *5 to 7 days *into that fermentation, that's when will add the* simple syrup *to once again boost the* alcohol *so just by adding *raisins* I will boost alcohol ever so slighter higher and that's what I have to be careful of , not to throw the taste out of proportion to the alcohol in the final analysis. In addition to that there are *two packages of yeast*. So there's a lot to deal with here in the beginning unlike a normal wine kit as you'll see if you follow on the other site at the same time, a *wine expert Muscat*, this kit is the basic mid range kit this , one you can actually play with more , as I stated it all remains to be seen as this plays itself out . Oh yes, and as far as the yeast goes, wine expert did their research on this one, this is probably the best wine yeast available for this* kit and style of wine*, if you research yeast you'll see what I mean. *When you Frankenstein a wine kit*, to coin the phrase, you have to be careful of and know what you're dealing with, so that the final product is what you expected to be and I expected this to be *spot on. Thanks for following, I hope this will be informative, Kate and I thank you.... Stay tuned- (we might still use raisins in both kits)............................................................. stay tuned...........................*


----------



## joeswine

*Raisins and oxidation*

 I've been using raisins a long time before they became fashionable in most wine circuits ,and have always use the same brand and never had a problem with oxidation or sulfites or any other things that others had a problem with ,it's up to you to use raisins or not, this is my thing, this is what I do and I have enough metals on my wall to prove it. T it's just information take it for what it's worth. Stay tuned


----------



## RCGoodin

joeswine said:


> In addition to that there are *two packages of yeast*.


 

Joe, I have the same Amarone kit. The yeast is Lalvin Bourgovin RC 212 (2 packages). What's your thoughts on this? Why two?

I'm not to sure about WE's approach to this. I also have a WE Eclipse Lodi Ranch 11 Cabernet and it comes with the ole "Lalvin EC 1118". I don't understand in that this is supposed to be a high end kit. 

And, I have a WE Eclipse Lodi Old Vine Zinfandel which came with Red Star Premier Cuvee. 

What's your thoughts on this? Should I change the Eclipse Cabernet to Red Star or RC 212, versus the "Ole EC 1118"?

I'm confused.


----------



## joeswine

*Rcgoodin*

The reason for the two yeast packages is to boost the alcohol level remember your adding a grape package to this also, are we talking about the same kit selections amarone about $140 and $50 is this the kit were talking about? If so there's a lot of components the building alcohol also have the dexterous package so there's a lot of work need to be done by the yeast. A I stated before
they did their homework on this one. I've checked it out.
]

As far as your eclipse kit goes , yeast that they're using can tolerate up 18% alcohol by volume or Abv,so they expect this could be very lush remember dealing with two different kits two different styles wines and yes different yeast promote different qualities and characteristics you can experiment with these all you like I haven't usually find something that coincides when I'm making no characteristics of the flavors the profiles I have see if that matches up with the yeast is going to deliver trapped overthink it staterooms have fun, when the high and kits there dead on  are you going to work your kit with me ? keep the faith.......................................................E


----------



## RCGoodin

I would love to work my kit with you. I'll probably be a 1/2 day behind you. That is if you started primary today. The only difference we may have from the start is that my fermentation room is around 79 degrees, so my fermentation goes a little faster.

Did you start today? I'll start tomorrow morning if you did. Or, where would you like me to be during this process?


----------



## joeswine

*Wineexpert Amarone*​
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kitis a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included.(This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is atop of the line kit.)

*The box includes thefollowing: *


 
Large bag of juice 
Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!) 
2 packs of Lavin RC-212 
2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar) 
Package #2 (bentonite) 
Package #3 (Metabisulphite) 
Package #4 (Sorbate) 
Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
Mesh Straining Bag 
3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak

*Just for reference,I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that youwill need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to putit below so you know what you need:*


 
Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
Measuring cup 
Hydrometer and test jar 
Thermometer 
Wine thief 
Siphon rod and hose  
Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
Bung and Air lock 
Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing  
30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)


----------



## joeswine

*The Process:*

As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with thewine. Including yourself. J

Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket withthe bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.

Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this outwith a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 

Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you alsowant to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.

Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 

Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you alsowant to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.

Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarianpowdered oak (wow!). 

Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover witha towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins.


----------



## joeswine

2 last pics for the night: A picture of the yeast sitting on top of the oak and skins. Also, a picture showing that this bucket it at the 6 gallon mark.
Now we wait....


----------



## geek

Joe, when do you plan to have this Amarone ready for drinking?

Nice and detailed steps..!!


----------



## joeswine

*winexpert amarone*

12 weeks ,it will be bottled and yes drinkable at least that's the plan, also the MUSCATO o same time frame, will see. GO BACK TO PAGE # 47 FOR PROCESS


----------



## joeswine

*Winexpert amarone*

FOLLOW the process...............


----------



## joeswine

*amarone continued*

follow the process............


----------



## RCGoodin

Joe, I'll be where you are at by 10:00 AM tomorrow. I'm on Pacific time, so I'm 3 hours behind you.

I'll get a picture of the SG and a few steps to share. It may seem redundant since your photographer is doing such a great job.

From this point forward I will call you Master and you call me grasshopper...


----------



## GaDawg

This is really great!!!


----------



## botigol

Joe,

First, thanks for taking the time to show us your process and providing your insights on winemaking. Even before this current project you put a lot of information out for us to consume and decide how it fits into our processes and styles. Second, what is your sense of the toast level of the oak? Medium? Heavy? Were all three packets the same?


----------



## Boatboy24

Following this with great interest. You've got nearly two pounds of dextrose there. Did that come with the kit, or are you adding it? I assume you plan to step feed with it to get the ABV up (that 1.090 SG seems low for an Amarone).


----------



## joeswine

*replies*

BOTIGOL.............the kit had 3 packages of powdered oak, the fact that they supplied this style of oak suggest that mouth feel and great body is what they were after, it will impart oaky taste as well, the latter is what will win out.


BOATBOY 24..............this process calls a capitalization process 5/7 days inn to the fermentation, the dextrose equates to a little over a quart and a cup of simple syrup.......to be added then........I will add 2 quarts.......to be sure.


----------



## joeswine

*amarone in process*

SELECTIONS WINE KIT AMARONE IN THE ZONE


----------



## joeswine

*amarone kit part 2*

amarone kit continued


----------



## RCGoodin

Hi Joe,

This is new to me. I'm ok with it, just new.


----------



## joeswine

*SIMPLE SYURP/Extracts at a glance/*

RCGOODIN

GO to ALMOND WINE THREAD, page # 20 ,line item #198 that is the process in it's entirety, used for boosting the abv. in wines at all levels.THE DEXTEROUS WILL EQUATE TO A FULL QUART MAY BE A LITTLE MORE,THE TRICK IS MAKING SURE YOUR SG. IS WHERE THEY STATED IT SHOULD BE THAT'S WHY I'm GOING TO MAKE A BATCH OF SIMPLE SYRUP WHICH I SHOULD HAVE ON HAND ANYWAY AND ADD ENOUGH TO COME TO THE 1.015 MARK,UPON STARTING OUT THE SG AFTER ALL WAS DONE WAS ONLY 1.08 SO I ADD THE DEXTROSE AT THE POINT IN THE FORM OF SIMPLE SYRUP BRING THE ABV. UP TO THE CORRECT STARTING POINT.YOU ALWAYS NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR SOMETHING THAT'S THE FUN OF WINE MAKING.

I THOUGHT I'd BRING IT TO YOU....


----------



## RCGoodin

Joe, I understand. I'm late on getting started today. I should have my starting SG for you a little later. You still have primary to go for about 5 or 6 days.

Is simple syrup a two to one ratio? Where it's two parts sugar to one part water, or reverse?


----------



## pjd

Joe, Remember this from a previous conversation with Pumpkinman? 

"YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN POWDERED OAK IN THE DISTANT PAST, YET ALONE GRAPE SKINS IN A KIT,AND I STILL DON'T SEE HOW GRAPE SKINS WORK.
USED? CAN'T IN PART ANY USEFULNESS INTO THE WINE OTHER THAN COLOR,BUT THAT'S JUST MY OPPION.


































n y




































Y OU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF WHERE DID THEY COME FROM AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INSIDE?



AFTER ALL THEY ARE DEHYDRATED"


Now that you are doing this kit what is your opinion of a grape skin pack?


----------



## RCGoodin

Hi Joe, I sent you a PM on my progress. The main issue is my SG = 1.084. At least I think that was it. The oak powder, sticking to the sides of the hydrometer, made it difficult to read. Should I add simple syrup to bring it up to 1.015? Three packages of oak powder was a new experience. I felt like I was de-gassing by hand again. Also, the grape-skin pack was new for me and a little difficult to get all the goodness out of the pouch. Yum........

Ok, 5 - 7 days of fermenting and then on to Chaptalisation....................................Onward and Upward Master, from Grasshopper.


----------



## RCGoodin

Here is the Chaptalisation (I like that word) instructions and the approximate dates for me.


----------



## chrisjw

This kit is quite different that the RJS Winery Series Amarone. The RJS had no Chaptalisation steps and different yeast. I like the idea of the Chaptalisation because it prolongs the fermentation period and keeps the grape pack in the must much longer. Are there any other advantages to adding the additional sugar in the later stages of fermentation as opposed to up front?

I will be really surprised if this turns out really good at the 3 month stage. My RJS Amarone is going to take 18-24 months to be good, although I added Tan'Cor Grand Cru. Some people have told me that Tan'Cor requires an additional 6 mos. to a year of aging. Still, at 14+% alcohol, the wine will probably still be very 'hot' at 3 months, don't you think?


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone wine kit move forward*

And the kit keeps moving on...........stay tuned


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone kit continued*

Amarone kit continued date 8/24 SG has dropped 1.07/day 2


----------



## RCGoodin

Hi Joe, I read on page 5 of this thread that you did this kit in 2011. What was the difference in kits? You did add raisins back then so I don't think that kit came with Grape Skins.

How did you like the taste of that kit?


----------



## joeswine

*The morning*

That amarone kit was the basic kit came with nothing but the juice and the usual suspects I think it was just a selection of vineyards. T that
I add the raisins. I also added oak tannins,. This also turned out quite well quite earl.I was just going through the catalog ( WINEXPERT) they don't even show in amarone in the newer version of the catalog only the one with the grape skin package my how times change.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone countdown*

Today is the 3RD day of fermentation in the SG's 1.03 as we approach the five-day Mark WE NEED TO boost of the alcohol that's when the simple syrup will be added on the fifth day. Y as you know in the pictorial once you've made the simple syrup this is the bottom lab work with my suggestion to you is make it to full courts this will be needed for what is to come or if you choose not to that's okay also just stay the course.

Note; ambience is At 68° during this fermentation


----------



## RCGoodin

Joe, What is your ratio of water to sugar in making simple syrup?


----------



## joeswine

*rc goodin*

2 to 1 sugar to water, go on Vineland wine competition thread there is the example I installed today.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone capitalization installed*

This kit was still started on August 22 it is August 27 five days later we reached the capitalization point this will boost the alcohol level that will give the amarone it's high abv.characteristics ,were also going to do at this point because I'm causing a second fermentation, I'm going to add the Sun maid raisins at this point to my open bucket ,these is a a 2 pound bag but I'm only going to add half of one of the bags ,this along with the capitalization should prove to be enough to add a depth note to the sauce ,at that point we will have to watch the specific gravity really close, its going to start not only a second fermentation but rehydrate the raisins also this is the tricky part if you haven't done this before, maybe you shouldn't stay on the course as per the manufacturer, or follow me closely when this one is done if those out there thought the sangiovese was decent ,this wine will be exceptional... I assure you. At this point we bump up the SG 1.020 just enough to put us over the edge along with the raisins and their chemistry adding sugars to the wine. Starting to look good.................. stay tuned


----------



## geek

Joe, I thought you were going to stick to the kit instructions very closely but I see you're adding raisins?


----------



## sdelli

Joe, Did you add both packs of sugar or only use one of them for your addition?


----------



## joeswine

*The process*

Capitalization, you need to incorporate both bags and use the two to one method of making simple syrup that equates a little over one quart by volume, once I saw what the sG was I understood that they were slowly trying to build up alcohol . This kit is a little complex in the sense of the word that you have to pay attention to what doing .


----------



## eblasmn9

Hey Joe, I think it's really cool that you photo journal your winemaking process.
I can vouch for "Joe's Amarone method". I started a cellar craft amarone in April using the raisins and tannin in the secondary. It's been in the barrel for a month now. Wow is it good. It's easily as good as the RJS WS Super Tuscan. 

I have been using the Winexpert Amarone for topping off the barrel. Six ounces for topping off and 19.4 ounces for me. It's going fast.  The Winexpert Amarone is 13 months old and drinking really nice. I wish I would of had your tweaks when I made it. It would be even better.
By the way, I bought the WE WV Sangiovese kit you did. I will use your tweaks on it. I have quite a few kits in the que. I think I will start it on New Years day.
Drinking cabs for the last 30 years, I have been pretty narrow minded. You have me "outside of the box" now liking Italian wines a lot.


----------



## joeswine

*Time to move forward*

NEXT STEP, between the fpac of grapes and the cap of raisins .it's time to get this wine under airlock and let it settle out on it's own. 

lets review the steps to get here


----------



## joeswine

*process contined*

stay the course.


----------



## sdelli

Did you ever start the Moscato you were talking about?


----------



## joeswine

*Winexpert Moscato Kit*

Hi Sdelli,
Yes, I started the Winexpert Moscato Kit the same time I started this Amarone kit. Here is the link to follow that thread. (FYI: It is also called "When Good Wines Gone Bad". I have a few threads going simultaneously on this forum with different kits on each.)

Here's the link to the Moscato if you are interested in learning more:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/when-good-wines-gone-bad-14483/index31.html

Best regards,
Joeswine and Neviawen (Kate)


----------



## joeswine

Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’stime to rack it. 

Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formedfrom the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit,along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 

We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’mgoing to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over theweekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashionedstir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with thepotassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearingagent). 

Now we wait. Stay tuned.


----------



## WineCaveBill

Joe,
I see you will be adding oak tannins. I've seen grape tannins on line. I will be taking a trip to my local wine making store (50 miles away) to buy oak tannin but I am not sure the will have the right stuff. Is a product called grape tannin or win tannin the same thing? If I cannot get oak tannin is one of the others close enough?
Thanks in advance for your advice. I started this same Amarone kit just this Saturday. I am trying to follow your lead. Just having fun in Ohio.....


----------



## joeswine

*wild cave bill*

Wine tannins are probably the correct term to use, they go a long way ,I got mine from Midwest supplies, do the best you can also make up a head of time the dexterous solution, it will save you time and a better flow in the process, I can't stress enough (DEGASSING) once you get to a point were you need to transfer, degassing is paramount BEFORE you transfer, but still need enough to work the wine in the glass yet not enough to erupt, do you understand? DEGASSING A MUST.


----------



## joeswine

*wine tannins/powdered oak*

contents..............


----------



## WineCaveBill

Joe, rereading your previous post on the amerone, you racked to the carboy for for secondary fermentation. I thought that was when you were going to add the rest of your grapes and tannin. Did I miss something? Looks like I will be racking tomorrow, I am just 2 days behind you...I smell the goodness.

Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

*wild cave bill*

are you making the AMARONE with me? If so yes you missed a step ,question what type of fermenter are you using?(1) all the items plus the grape pack in the first stage ,follow the( sg) as per directed,(2)I installed the raisins in the next stage in my tube, if you are not using a tub, then wait till you go dry ,rack as directed , then add the raisins be sure to degas and keep a close eye on the (sg)...........


----------



## RCGoodin

Hi Joe,

I'm confused about this instruction. It Note states to de-gas heavily and then item #2, in the instructions, states to leave the sediment behind.

What's your thoughts on this? How can you rack and leave sediment behind after you've aggressively de-gassed? All the sediment are now floating. Maybe there should be a wait time before racking. That way the heavy sediment will have dropped to the bottom prior to racking.

I de-gas using the All-in-one wine pump by racking back and forth between carboys four times. I will do the same with this.


----------



## joeswine

*degassing*

 stay the course, go away keep the lid on is will be ready to handle when you get back, there's plenty of time left,ok. stay on the pm side of the conversation if you can.


----------



## joeswine

*Now we wait*

 LET'S DISCUSS WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED


----------



## GaDawg

Joe, I am new at this but this is the 1st kit I have seen that comes with sugar?
I know folks put sugar (SS) in mist kits. Have you or do you Capitalize regular kits?
Learning to think outside the box


----------



## joeswine

*Capitalization*

In basic terms capitalization  is the reintroduce of sugar into the wine along with the existing yeast to boost the alcohol level of the wine, after the yeast has digested it and expels alcohol. 

 In the case of the amarone we definitely need to boost the alcohol level that's one of the trademarks of this style of wine along with its unique flavor . 
 I have reproduced the making of simple syrup on these threads nothing complicated about it.thanks for the question and thanks for following .


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone moving forward*

Amarone and review ............ any questions


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone continued*

Stage II................. amarone continued


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone continued*

Stage III................. *capitalization*


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone stage four*

Stage IV................. S*econdary racking*once this is racked to secondary you have to sit back and wait and let nature take its course there is no hurrying here , we just have to wait and see so far so good you should be an exciting wine in the end, they should take about two weeks to settle out at that time we will racket once again and get ready for clearing and final prep, then we'll move on to bottling and labeling.

Stay tuned, any questions? I know there are a few of you are making this kit with me in via e-mail you have come with me step-by-step I state thank you, stay the course stay in touch to we rack again.


----------



## GaDawg

Joe, I make and drink better wine because of your post
Thank you!


----------



## geek

Joe,

so it looks like once you get the 2nd fermentation over you rack the wine removing the sediment and raisins, and then it looks like you bottle right there after adding the chems?

You rather bottle that early and not leave in carboy aging for a little bit?

..


----------



## joeswine

*Game plan*

 WE still need to degas this wine and believe you me there's a lot to degas, not this Thursday but next we will re-rack and let it settle out before resuming work on this AMARONE, we have a lot of time left on the schedule and there's no rush, it's a long ways from finish.


----------



## TomK-B

Joe, I've noticed that with this kit and with the Sangiovese kit you do not snap down a lid with airlock on your primary fermenter. You simply cover with a towel to keep things from falling into the wine from the environment. Others say the primary should be made air-tight, especially after the fermentation is half way finished. Why do you simply cover with a towel?


----------



## geek

TomK-B said:


> Joe, I've noticed that with this kit and with the Sangiovese kit you do not snap down a lid with airlock on your primary fermenter. You simply cover with a towel to keep things from falling into the wine from the environment. Others say the primary should be made air-tight, especially after the fermentation is half way finished. Why do you simply cover with a towel?



You should never air-tight in primary as the yeast really needs oxygen to do its job. Once fermentation is over then you air-lock it.


----------



## joeswine

*my towel*

 yes, the more surface area the greater the oxygen contact with the wine the better the overall fermentation and sometimes much quicker....just my preference..........also not to allow the flies not to take a swim ............my way. there is still along ways to go before it's ready for bottling..................


----------



## joeswine

*amarone moving forward*


Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*

As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with thewine. Including yourself. J

Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket withthe bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.

Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this outwith a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 

Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you alsowant to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.

Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 

Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you alsowant to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.

Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets ofHungarian powdered oak (wow!). 

Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover witha towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 

*SecondaryFermentation:*

Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’stime to rack it. 

Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formedfrom the grape skin packet that was provided in the Winexpert Amarone Kit,along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 

We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’mgoing to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over theweekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashionedstir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with thepotassium sorbet packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearingagent). 

Now we wait. Stay tuned.


----------



## roger80465

Hey Joe (or any of the other 'tweakers' out there),
I have started an Em Premeur Amarone and have added the grape skins to primary per instructions. I plan to move to secondary with the raisins later next week. I am a little concerned about the raisin addition since I will be leaving on vacation on 9/21. Is there a problem leaving the raisins in secondary for 3 weeks or should I pull them after a week? I have reread the Sangiovese thread and can't get a handle on how long the raisins stayed in the secondary. It looks like it was several weeks but I wanted to be sure. Thanks for your input on this.


----------



## geek

I think the raisins should be left for as long as the 2nd fermentation goes on, a month at the most.


----------



## sdelli

Roger,

The raisins can be left in the secondary for 3 or 4 weeks no problem.... But on this kit Joe put them in the primary instead.... Here is a quote from one of the previous pages of this thread.....

This kit was still started on August 22 it is August 27 five days later we reached the capitalization point this will boost the alcohol level that will give the amarone it's high abv.characteristics ,were also going to do at this point because I'm causing a second fermentation, I'm going to add the Sun maid raisins at this point to my open bucket ,these is a a 2 pound bag but I'm only going to add half of one of the bags ,this along with the capitalization should prove to be enough to add a depth note to the sauce ,at that point we will have to watch the specific gravity really close, its going to start not only a second fermentation but rehydrate the raisins also this is the tricky part if you haven't done this before, maybe you shouldn't stay on the course as per the manufacturer, or follow me closely when this one is done if those out there thought the sangiovese was decent ,this wine will be exceptional... I assure you. At this point we bump up the SG 1.020 just enough to put us over the edge along with the raisins and their chemistry adding sugars to the wine. Starting to look good.................. stay tuned


----------



## roger80465

Thanks for the replies. The recap from Joe's Amarone is helpful. My kit came with both dried winery grape skins and raisins but there is no mention of the raisins in the instructions. So I planned to add to secondary when it reaches around 1.020 - 1.010 range. I just wanted to be sure a long soak would not harm the wine. Guess I will continue on the planned path. Thanks again


----------



## Enologo

Joe, I noticed in the photos that you remove the re-hydrated raisins with a strainer. Do you press out the juice after you remove them or while they're still in the bucket??


----------



## Boatboy24

roger80465 said:


> Thanks for the replies. The recap from Joe's Amarone is helpful. My kit came with both dried winery grape skins and raisins but there is no mention of the raisins in the instructions. So I planned to add to secondary when it reaches around 1.020 - 1.010 range. I just wanted to be sure a long soak would not harm the wine. Guess I will continue on the planned path. Thanks again



Roger,

I just moved my EP Amarone into the barrel about a week ago. I fermented exactly as you plan. Skins in primary, raisins in secondary. I had them in there for about 4 weeks total - no issues.


----------



## roger80465

Boatboy24 said:


> Roger,
> 
> I just moved my EP Amarone into the barrel about a week ago. I fermented exactly as you plan. Skins in primary, raisins in secondary. I had them in there for about 4 weeks total - no issues.



Thanks, Boat. Looks like I will have no worries on this. I will carry on as planned.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Enologo said:


> Joe, I noticed in the photos that you remove the re-hydrated raisins with a strainer. Do you press out the juice after you remove them or while they're still in the bucket??



No, you just strain them out. If you press them, you will get pulp and you don't want that.


----------



## joeswine

*Raising removal*

Good morning, the reason I removed the reasons with a strainer is because it's just simpler at that point,if they were in a bottle or glass carboy that makes it a little more difficult, you would do it at the next racking, because I haven it in a open vessel it made life so much easier ,and 0 By the Way I don't squeeze all the juice out of the raisins the reason for that is the raisins have given up to the wine all they could give, I don't want to make the wine a more bitter than it will be. There is no other reason, and there's no need to do it , make sense? E


----------



## Thig

Enologo said:


> Joe, I noticed in the photos that you remove the re-hydrated raisins with a strainer. Do you press out the juice after you remove them or while they're still in the bucket??



Maybe it all depends. The instructions for my La Bodega port kit says to put them into a strainer bag and squeeze them.


----------



## joeswine

*Raisins squeeze or not to squeeze?*

 I guess you're right it all depends , this is my way of doing it and believe me the raisin have given up all they can give, then all you have left is a very bitter fruit the goal is to extract the best of the raisins sugars and essence without overpowering the baseline ,at least that's my approach follow the instructions, that's another approach. H


----------



## TomK-B

joeswine said:


> follow the instructions, that's another approach. H



Instructions? What instructions? We don't need no stinkin' instructions!


----------



## joeswine

*Instructions*

Instructions are there for a reason but if you been doing kits for as long as I have in making wine as long as I have *it all becomes the same instruction a*nd let's face it after you have completed your first five or 10 you can almost memorize what the next step is if we have good sanitation skills and all the tools in your toolbox to move forward at any time then the instructions just become a reference for the kit master to identify what SG should be at what time and what position the rest is all basic but we have to stick to basics because we have a lot of newbies here, and then sometimes I drift away and do my own thing .that's the fun of winemaking and when it stops being fun I will stop.


----------



## bkisel

Bought a RJS VdV Pino Noir kit this afternoon and was wondering if this particular kit would be a good candidate for trying the raisin tweak showcased earlier in this thread, what do you think? 

Thanks...


----------



## GaDawg

This is my next kit so please let me know if you tweak, and how you progress with the kit


----------



## joeswine

*Pinot Noir*

No, this one has its own characteristics usually it's fruit forward mild embody and smooth at the end ,does this kid come with raisins ?doesn't have any oak? And if so what type? I'm making Pinot Noir myself from fresh juice from California from last year still in the 6 gallon carboy what type of yeast are you going to use? Let's discuss at the planning stage we want nice smooth finish to this wine that the key to Pinot Noir.


----------



## GaDawg

Joe, this kit (RJ Spagnols Grand Cru International) Pinot Noir does not come with raisins but it does come with French Oak intensity is 2 out of 10. I was thinking of making an Oak extract (Everclear + Oak) to add to the secondary. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks


----------



## bkisel

joeswine said:


> No, this one has its own characteristics usually it's fruit forward mild embody and smooth at the end ,does this kid come with raisins ?doesn't have any oak? And if so what type? I'm making Pinot Noir myself from fresh juice from California from last year still in the 6 gallon carboy what type of yeast are you going to use? Let's discuss at the planning stage we want nice smooth finish to this wine that the key to Pinot Noir.



My RJS Vino del Vida series Pinot Noir is a 9L 4-week kit. It comes with about an 1/8 cup of powder oak that is pitched in primary just before pitching the yeast. The yeast is EC-1118. 

This is my sixth kit and my second making of this particular RJS kit. I'm making it again at my wife's request. We both enjoyed it the first time round [but I would rather have tried/started something different].

So... maybe for next time [another carboy frees next month] what type/variety of wines benefit from a raisin tweak? A number of RJS, WE and MM VdV kits are available to me at my LHBS but I'd like to try the tweak with an RJS VdV kit. I like the price and I like the results I've gotten so far with the RJS VdV kits. I was planning on getting a "big" kit, a RJS Winery Series, for next month but would forgo that to try a raisin tweak with a less expensive kit ($75.00 VdV vs. $125.00 WS).

Thanks...


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone*

Amarone continued.................. Now is the time we start driving out the CO2, this is about the fourth time I have stirred this juice or should I say wine because now it is officially wine at this stage it takes patience playing ordinary everyday patients try not to rush it might be boring but it's what needs to be done, as you can tell there's not a whole lot of gas left in the wine and that's good, we still have a long ways to go before this becomes anything worthwhile I think for about one month and at this point, I know there's a few of you out there are making it right along with me the patient stay the course and in the end will have a delicious wine.And 0 By the Way we topped it off with dry nitrogen every time.


----------



## Tess

What a wonderful thread. I also didnt want to get into this because it was so long and wanted to wait till I had the time to read it all. Thats Joe. I just ordered Wine Expert Italian Brunello w/ Grape Skins - Selection International. I was going to oak it anyway I think I will try the raisin and oak tannin on this one also. I love Italian Brunello


----------



## Tess

Is there a difference in oak tannin and any other wine tannin?


----------



## joeswine

*Tess*

  HI TESS, about time you joined us here, know there is no difference, there other types maybe but you see what I use fine wine toy store has started to carry it, along with one other .The principle is the same ,it can be add at anytime during the process but for REDS,I believe it's better in the secondary ,adding another layer of texture to the SAUCE,also a great improvement to the *ports,* it helps or at least Try's to make up for the lax of body and texture and gives a luscious mouth feel along the way.


IF that's what you ordered then follow the SANGIOVESE THREAD al ready in pics and tutorial format,EASY


----------



## Tess

joeswine said:


> HI TESS, about time you joined us here, know there is no difference, there other types maybe but you see what I use fine wine toy store has started to carry it, along with one other .The principle is the same ,it can be add at anytime during the process but for REDS,I believe it's better in the secondary ,adding another layer of texture to the SAUCE,also a great improvement to the *ports,* it helps or at least Try's to make up for the lax of body and texture and gives a luscious mouth feel along the way.
> 
> 
> IF that's what you ordered then follow the SANGIOVESE THREAD al ready in pics and tutorial format,EASY



thanks Joe I plan on it. Thanks for all the info and keep it up. Very informative


----------



## LoneStarLori

I started my WE Sangiovese today. I'm going to do the raisin/tannin tweak to it also. It worked great on my white wine.


----------



## joeswine

*lone Star Lori*

_JUST FOLLOW THE PROCESS CONTINUE ON ALMOND WINES THREAD ,OK.................................UNTIL YOU MOVE THE LUNA FORWARD,THEN JOCKEY AROUND._


----------



## joeswine

*amarone in review*

*Wineexpert Amarone*​Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)
*The box includes the following: *

Large bag of juice
Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!)
2 packs of Lavin RC-212
2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
Package #2 (bentonite)
Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
Package #4 (Sorbate)
Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
Mesh Straining Bag
3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*

Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
Measuring cup
Hydrometer and test jar
Thermometer
Wine thief
Siphon rod and hose 
Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
Bung and Air lock
Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 
Now we wait. Stay tuned.


----------



## joeswine

*amarone kit part 2*

FOLLOW THE PROCESS............ _STAY THE COURSE_


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone kit part 3*

follow the process  STAY THE COURSE  WE ARE COMING TO A POINT WERE WE WILL RE-RACK AND DEGASES MORE IF REQUIRED THEN TASTE AND LET IT MATURE AWHILE,IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA PM,WE CAN REVIEW YOUR CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS .STAY TOONED....................


----------



## joeswine

*Update on Amarone 09/26/2013*

Just and update. 
We tasted this tonight because we couldn't help ourselves.. 
Oh my goodness.. I's delicious so far! Rich, Inky color, fruity on the front.. Definitely going to be a lovely wine when finished!
Stay tuned!


----------



## geek

joe, how strong is the raisins flavor right now?


----------



## joeswine

*rasins in the wine*

NOT STRONG AT ALL,REMEMBER THIS KIT ALSO CONTAINED A GRAPE FPAC,THAT BALANCED OUT THE RASINS THAT'S WHY THE ADDTIONAL AMOUNT OF TANNINS TO KEEP BRING UP THE ACIDITY LEVEL TO BALANCE..PH 3.6............ABV 14%.......NOW IT MUST MATURE. THE WINE IS MONTH OLD AT HIS POINT.......................AND HAS VERY GOOD BALANCE AND TASTE...................


----------



## joeswine

*Cru Caramel Port Kit*​ *The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Caramel Brule’ F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Caramel Extract
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

Stay tuned! We will be working on this kit while our Winexpert Amarone Kit is sitting and curing.


----------



## joeswine

Last two photos of this kit:


----------



## LoneStarLori

This sounds pretty tasty. I have a question though. You say you need 15 wine bottles, but 30 corks and caps. Why not an even amount?


----------



## Ricky

joeswine said:


> Last two photos of this kit:



Joe, you had to top off a 3 gallon kit?... With spring water... I hope I don't have to top off my black forest kits....


----------



## joeswine

*Topping off*

*Yes I did,* the volume of the baseline did not equate to 3 gallons it was about 1 quart shy that's why the addition of the water the concentrate that were using and the added dimension of the water should have no effect, but I'm right where the manufacturer specs say I should be, I took a look at it this afternoon around 230 and it has a beautiful crown of yeast bubbling away. 

You always have to be aware that the* manufacturer specs* are just that and what you get out of the package may not quite be filling the specs and that's why we learn as winemakers to* Think outside the Box................. thanks for following
*


----------



## TomK-B

I had the same experience with my RJS Black Forest Port kit. But I decided not to top up until after I'd added the f-pack. I was thinking that the manufacturer had reduced the amount of the grape juice by the amount of the f-pack. And it wasn't too far off. I still had to top up with about a half bottle of brandy when I moved it for stabilization.


----------



## vernsgal

joeswine said:


> *Yes I did,* the volume of the baseline did not equate to 3 gallons it was about 1 quart shy that's why the addition of the water the concentrate that were using and the added dimension of the water should have no effect, but I'm right where the manufacturer specs say I should be, I took a look at it this afternoon around 230 and it has a beautiful crown of yeast bubbling away.
> 
> You always have to be aware that the* manufacturer specs* are just that and what you get out of the package may not quite be filling the specs and that's why we learn as winemakers to* Think outside the Box................. thanks for following
> *



So Joe, you think it would be all right to top off with a bit of water in this case? I"m down a little over a quart (I think).


----------



## joeswine

*Topping off*

_ Yes I do_ and the reason being is that it is such a little bit of water to add to the concentrate it shouldn't have any effect, but I do not recommend adding F pack that is totally not what the fpac is for, that is strictly for flavor and nothing more when adding it to the base , in my opinion and my opinion only as well as the manufacturers is incorrect you are wasting your flavor, in my oppion.


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Joe. And I agree with not using your f-pak to top up because the flavor just goes out of it in ferment. I do use mine though sometimes in the primary if it's a sugar f-pak as I like my wines dry. And I have to say to anyone new to wine making kits, you could stop your ferment by using the f pak because it does contain sorbate.


----------



## joeswine

*Fpacs*




* THE REASON FOR A FPAC*,is only one to deliver the flavor profile that the manufacture wants as there signature taste and is always used on it's own, if you want to increases the abv-- do it in the primary with simple syrup, if you really want to stop the alcohol process ,you can but you need to have *good chemical process controls ,in place this is not recommended for most wine makers., buy using a fpac in anyother manner you have the possibilities of restarting fermentation and then there's no taste left and what remains is wine that's hot. These are proven facts ..................and my experiences..*


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Joe, that's exactly what I was trying to say


----------



## Pumpkinman

> you could stop your ferment by using the f pak because it does contain sorbate.



I'll have to respectfully disagree, Sorbate will not stop an active fermentation, it will however stop any new fermentations.


----------



## jamesngalveston

The only way to stop an active ferment is with adding enough alcohol to kill the yeast...sorbate as pumpkin man said, will stop any new ferment unless you add yeast to again..if there is more yeast then what the sorbate can handle, it will start ferment again.


----------



## TomK-B

I think my previous post was misunderstood. Joe said he noticed that the juice level of his RJS port kit was a bit short of the three gallon mark in his primary fermentor, so he added spring water to the juice to bring it up to three gallons. I was trying to say that I had noticed the same thing in my RJS port kit, but decided not to add anything to the juice in the primary fermentor. Instead, I fermented the juice to dry, stabilized with sorbate, added the fining agents, degassed, and then added the f-pack. What I found is that after adding the f-pack at the end the volume had come up to within 375 ml of the proper level. I chose to top up that difference with brandy. What I was trying to say is that I think RJS has designed the kit so that this is what happens.


----------



## joeswine

*Makes sense*

*CORRECT *,THIS HAS BEEN ON GOING ADJUST WITH WINE KITS,THE MANUFACTURES ADJUST TO THE CHEMICAL REACTIONS AND PROPORTIONS AND TIMING , WE THENTS HAVE TO ADJUST TO THE MANUFACTURES SPECTS ,THAT'S WHAT MAKES THIS A GREAT HOBBY* AND THEN WE (THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX*).


----------



## Neviawen

LoneStarLori said:


> This sounds pretty tasty. I have a question though. You say you need 15 wine bottles, but 30 corks and caps. Why not an even amount?


 
Hi Lori,
I help Joe with his posts and that was my mistake- this is a 3-gallon kit so it should say 3- gallon carboy, as well as 15 bottles, corks, and caps. 

Best,
Katie
(Neviawen)


----------



## joeswine

*caramel port kit*

caramel port continued......


----------



## joeswine

*caramel port kit*

continued.............


----------



## Bartman

Neviawen said:


> Hi Lori,
> I help Joe with his posts...
> 
> Best,
> Katie
> (Neviawen)



Very glad to hear this! No offense intended, but Joe's posts have sometimes been very difficult for me to follow.


----------



## bluedog

Perhaps I missed it, but how much oak tannin was added? The pic suggested a heaping something...teaspoon, tablespoon)?


----------



## joeswine

*adding tannins*

THERE WAS 1 TABLESPOON ADDED AT THIS POINT,I WANTED TO BOOST UP THE PH IN THE PRIMARY THEN PLAY OFF OF IT LATER IN THE SECONDARY IF NEEDED.(NOT SHOUTING JUST USING LARGER LETTERS).

 WHAT A TEAM!


----------



## bluedog

Joe, thanks for confirming the amount on tannin. I have this kit on hand, and am now thinking I will follow your lead and think out outside the box with it. I look forward to following your progress.


----------



## joeswine

*Caramel port forward*

MOVING WITH THE RACKING///// JUST TO LET YOU KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES,WE ALSO MADE A *COFFEE PORT* .THE REASON WE DIDN'T DO IT ON A SEPARATE THREAD IS BECAUSE IT'S THE SAME BASE AND PROCEDURES, WERE WE WILL SPLIT THE TWO IS AT THE SECONDARY,SO PAY ATTENTION,WE WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT ENHANCEMENTS ARE ADDED TO EACH AND WHEN,BUT IT'S UP TO YOU TO FOLLOW,SOUND INTERESTING???????????????????????? WE MAY ALSO MOVE THIS THREAD TO CLEANING UP SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE THE AMARONE KIT AND IT'S TRANSISTION TO THE FINISH,THIS WINE IS EXCITTING TO SAY THE LEAST IN TEXTURE AS WELL AS STRUCTURE AND TASTE.......IT SHOWS WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH A GREAT KIT AND *THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.*


----------



## joeswine

*Caramel port forward*

FOLLOW THE THREAD......... CARAMEL AND COFFEE PORTS


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joe, what's in the little bottle laying down on the kit picture? Is it an extract?


----------



## Putterrr

joeswine said:


> THERE WAS 1 TABLESPOON ADDED AT THIS POINT,I WANTED TO BOOST UP THE PH IN THE PRIMARY THEN PLAY OFF OF IT LATER IN THE SECONDARY IF NEEDED.(NOT SHOUTING JUST USING LARGER LETTERS).
> 
> WHAT A TEAM!


 
Joe

how does the tannic acid differ from the wine tannin you used in making your coffee port?

I still have my coffee port sitting while i'm getting next years beers / cider finished. I'm looking forward to getting it bottled for x-mass gifts

thx

cheers


----------



## joeswine

*Answers*

LORI,THAT IS A BOTTLE OF CARAMEL EXTRACT WHICH I MAY OR MAYNOT USE IN THE CARAMEL PORT , THE PORT WILL DEFINE WHAT DIRRECTION I WANT TO TAKE IT OR IT WANTS TO TAKE ME. THEN I'll ADJUST TEXTURE AND TASTE TO BALANCE.


PUTTER,NO DIFFERENCE JUST LABELS,OKAY?


----------



## Putterrr

joeswine said:


> PUTTER,NO DIFFERENCE JUST LABELS,OKAY?


 

Thx Joe

Still dont have my tannin. Have a friend coming up from maine over your thanksgiving weekend and he will bring me some supplies. Just have to decide on what to get.

cheers


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee and caramel wine forward*

THE two wines have a common base so we twinned the process, follow and ask .


----------



## joeswine

*Caramel and coffee port cont.*

PROCESS MOVING FROWARD..


----------



## LoneStarLori

Looking good! I ordered a chocolate orange port today so I'll watch and learn. Again.


----------



## joeswine

*Port wines*

THE DIFFERENCE between the two kits base is the same the fpacs and enhancements which we will go over once the base and the fpacs have macerated.


we will move this thread by next Thursday so we can finish the *AMARONE BOTTLING AND LABELING* ..keep watching

* WILL POST ON THE CLEANING UP THREAD.*


----------



## VETT1990

*Wow!!*

Joe and Rocky, 

What a thread you all started, education is a wonderful gift!

This tread is amazing, since I'm new to this forum I started reading at page one which is several years ago. I made it to page five then fast forwarded to the last page..... and BANG I'm at today, this is like a time capsule of wine making knowledge. I also noticed Joe has progressed to a camera as a picture is worth a thousand word description. LOL

I must say Joe, you are very impressive within the art / chemistry of wine making you are doing things that I've been somewhat reluctant to try. 

I enjoy the wine making process and making things from what nature provides to us. I find myself afraid to add juices and flavors (aka, sauces) my biggest worry is causing the fermentation process to restart after adding the sugar base and ruining the entire batch.

Great thread!!!


----------



## joeswine

*Wineexpert Amarone*​**UPDATED**​Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *

Large bag of juice
Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!)
2 packs of Lavin RC-212
2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
Package #2 (bentonite)
Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
Package #4 (Sorbate)
Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
Mesh Straining Bag
3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*

Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
Measuring cup
Hydrometer and test jar
Thermometer
Wine thief
Siphon rod and hose 
Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
Bung and Air lock
Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*

As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 
UPDATE:​​We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

More pictures:

As always, thanks for following us. 

Love,
Joe and Kate


----------



## geek

nice....what is the difference between that Selection and the Selection International?
Both are 18L kits with grape skins.


----------



## RCGoodin

Joe & Kate,

Thank you for a wonderful experience and passing of great knowledge. We're drinking it already. I don't think this wine will make it through the holidays......


----------



## GaDawg

Joe & Kate,
What a great gift ya'll have given to us!


----------



## markb1983

Brilliant! Joe thanks so very much! I truly appreciate all your hard work. Thanks again!!!!!!!!!


----------



## markb1983

I would love to have you do a wine into port thread! One of my fav ports is a Malbec port! I would love to see your magic on this!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

So joe no additional tannins in the secondary? If so how much?


----------



## joeswine

*Tannins and the secondary*

* Yes there were, I believe we put 2 tablespoons in the secondary, also I proceeded to put one more to make it according to my taste in my taste profile this thing gave it a more earthy taste. Once this wine is aged a little more it will be outstanding like RC goodin and stated, he might not have none left by Christmas tasty this is these tying kits are expensive but there will worth the money the Vigo concentrate to varietals overwhelming concentrate side the balance of the parental and grape oak along with the tannins makes a measurable difference in the overall performance of kit and its response to time, definitely a winner.*


----------



## geek

Looks like you also added raisins, was that in secondary?


----------



## joeswine

*Directions*

*Geek, read the directions at the top of the thread.*


----------



## geek

yes, it says you added raisins but want to know if along with the grape skins pack in primary, or secondary?


----------



## joeswine

*In the secondary*

Even though it was all done in an open face container the raises were added in the secondary is always all additives should be added in the secondary with the exceptions of oak and wine tannin , and* even they can go either way it's all a matter of your preference,* *remember, it's like making a sauce you have the base and then you have your seasonings, got it!*


----------



## LoneStarLori

Once again, a very nice tutorial Joe and Kate. I have really benefited from the pictorials y'all have done. Saved me from many mistakes for sure.cheers!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Thank you joe for your response.


----------



## joeswine

*Winexperts amarone competition*

Amarone process....winexperts


----------



## geek

How's the taste of your Amarone so far at this young stage?


----------



## joeswine

*Ine experts amarone cont.*

Process cont.


----------



## joeswine

*amarone kit part 3*

PROCESS CONT.............................


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the final product*

THIS kit for me was excellent in ever manner it allow me to manufacture the kit as read but accepted my enhancements accordingly and finished in the prescribed time frame ,for all the BIG BOLD ITALIAN wine drinkers out there the is a quality kit to have in your collection in every way....................looking forward to producing the next one.


*YOURS JOE AND KATE*


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Joe and Kate, I really enjoy following you in your wine making


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port revised*

NOW THAT THE AMARONE kit is completed will resume the coffee port by CRU...................... GO THE VINLAND COMPETITION THREAD THE SANGIOVESE IS RUNNING THEIR FROM FRONT TO BACK



*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​ 
*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 



After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir.


----------



## joeswine

*Cru caramel and coffee port cont.*

REMEMBER BOTH THE COFFEE AND CAMAMEL PORT STYLE WINES HAVE THE SAME BASE WE WILL SHOULD YOU HOW TO ENHANCE THEM IN 2 WEEKS.....................


----------



## joeswine

*Finished Product: Coffee Port*

Here it is! Another AWARD WINNING WINE!


----------



## LoneStarLori

Another nice thread Joe and Kate. Thanks for posting


----------



## joeswine

*winexpert Cabernet Sauvignon*

this will be the next kit we explore,are tweeks this time ,we are going to make our own grape fpac ok of black corithin grapes.

so lets get you aquainted with them now.




BLACK CORINTH GRAPES

If you've ever had currant buns, or any other baked product with "currants" in them, you, like 99.9% of the public, thought the "currants" were the little red fruits that grow on bushes. Nope.
The dried "currants" used in baking are actually a true raisin, a dried grape. Called "currants" because one of the names of the grape they come FROM is "Zante Currant" also known as Black Corinth, and many other names, THIS is the variety dried INTO "currants" that are used in baking.
Black Corinth is the name you will usually find it under in America, though in recent years it has become known as "the Champagne grape" due to advertising by a produce dealer who specializes in it. Ironically, there is an old American grape called "Champagne" that is a very coarse, rough tasting labrusca grape of low quality, about as far FROM Champagne as you could get.
Black Corinth is a very odd grape in many ways. In it's natural state, the clusters have very few berries and they are hardly bigger than pinheads. In wild grapes, the sexes are in separate vines, male flowers on one, female flowers on another. This is true even in wild Vitis vinifera, the classic grape of commerce. Black Corinth is an "almost male" in that the flowers have well developed anthers, and very tiny ovaries, probably representing a first step towards evolution of a perfect flowered grape. Hence, when it does set fruit, there are only a few per cluster and the berries are tiny and seedless. However, the variety was doubtless kept as a source of pollen so that the female flowered varieties would set full crops.
How did Black Corinth come to be used at all, if the berries are so few and tiny?
It's a very old variety, probably Greek, and the story goes that a donkey was tied to a vine of it and the animal started going around the vine until the halter rope rubbed the bark off. Instead of dying, the vine healed the wound and the grapes, which were minuscule in other years, were large enough to eat after the vine was girdled. There is certainly a grain of truth in the fable as girdling was a standard practice in increasing the set and size of seedless grapes until the discovery of the plant hormone gibberellic acid and it's ability to do the same thing with less labor.
Girdling, or hormone treatment, causes the clusters to set full crops, though the berries are still tiny. Because the stems also remain tiny, the berries can be eaten with the stems on. This makes the variety seem very dainty and rather glamorous (thanks especially to articles showing frosted clusters of them with glasses of champagne - hence the "champagne" grape) and home growers who have seen this decide that Black Corinth would be fun to grow., which is too bad because it's NOT a home grower's grape.
First, of over 200 varieties in my collection, it is the most susceptible to powdery mildew. As pure Vitis vinifera, it is also completely susceptible to all the other diseases of grapes - downy mildew, black rot, etc. And since it comes FROM such a mild country, it can't be counted on as being hardy to much more than 0°F. But more than anything else, unless the vine is treated with hormone at bloom time, or girdled, the berries are minuscule and the clusters are straggly. So while it looked romantic in the magazine, it's NOT worth the work for most homeowners. Buy the fruit in the store, if you must, but don't bother trying to grow it.
Black Corinth - the grape that's a Currant (Zante) that's a grape.

FROM A TASTE PROSPECTIVE THEY ARE GRAPEY AND EARTHY AT THE SAMETIME VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE WORKED WITH BEFORE,BUT WHERE ONLY GOING TO WORK WITH A LARGE HANDFULL and DO A FRESH CRUSH ....STICK AROUND WERE GOING TO TURE THIS CAB INTO A SUPER CAB.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Sounds exciting. Where will you get the grapes?


----------



## joeswine

*grapes???*

*WHILE* I was shopping the other day I noticed them at a dollar a box ,my planning for Kate was to either make the* cab* or the* pino*, the fpac seamed logical so I picked them up vacuumed sealed them and placed them in the freezer waiting for their role in this play.* REMEMBER* this is going to be just like the fpac in the high end kit just big enough to do the job.


----------



## geek

joe, it would be nice to start the cab on a new thread....easier to follow.


----------



## joeswine

*Winexpert cabernet sauvignon*

GEEK,THE THRERAD WILL BE RIGHT HERE ,I NEEDED TO INTRODUCE THE GRAPE TYPE BEING USED AN SOME HISTRY ON IT IT WILL GO AS SMOOTH AS THE REST HAVE..............


----------



## geek

It would be very beneficial that you keep threads separated so anyone can follow a specific varietal or wine type you're making. Just my opinion.....

Basically it keeps things more organized.


----------



## sour_grapes

Joe is a force of nature. I aim to stand aside and let it roll!


----------



## RCGoodin

*Will these Zante Currants work?*

*Zante Currants*






Sun-Maid Natural Zante Currants are sun-dried from the Black Corinth grape, a very special grape grown in only selected vineyards of California. 
For many, our Zante Currants have become the preferred delicacy in their favorite baked goods like scones, cookies, breads, muffins, or rolls. Tiny, dark and tart-to-taste, Zantes live up to the reputation of our other natural products... America's favorite.


----------



## RCGoodin

*Amazon, pkg of 6, 10 0z*

Check out the link to Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001EQ5OSM...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_7j3u5fzt2g_b


----------



## geek

do they sell those at local markets or food chain stores?


----------



## roger80465

geek said:


> do they sell those at local markets or food chain stores?



I get mine at Safeway.


----------



## joeswine

*Corinthian grapes*

THE RAISINS MAY WORK OUT AS WELL,BUT THE RAISINS WILL ADD A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT SPIN ON THE TEXTURE THEY WE A GIFT FROM THE GODS OF WINE ,SO I TOOK THEM IN TOW AND WILL APPLY THEM AS I DID WITH THE AMARONE KIT,I WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO MAKE A CONCENTRATED WINE GRAPE FPAC AS SUPPLIED BY THE MANUFACTURE ONLY WE'LL MAKE IT HERE.........GO BACK AND READ THE STORY OF THE GRAPES IT'S INTERESTING TO SAY THE LEAST ........STAY TUNED


----------



## LoneStarLori

this is going to be good. I looked at the Zante Currantes online a couple of weeks ago. I will probably use them in my next red. Not the LE Shiraz though. It comes with grapes.


----------



## RCGoodin

LoneStarLori said:


> this is going to be good. I looked at the Zante Currantes online a couple of weeks ago. I will probably use them in my next red. Not the LE Shiraz though. It comes with grapes.


 
Lori, the Amarone we just made had it's own grapes and we still added a pound of red raisins for extra body. Just saying....


----------



## geek

RCGoodin said:


> Lori, the Amarone we just made had it's own grapes and we still added a pound of red raisins for extra body. Just saying....



you used regular dark raisins or the currants?


----------



## RCGoodin

geek said:


> you used regular dark raisins or the currants?


 

The Amarone called for regular dark raisins. This was the request from Joe.


----------



## RCGoodin

joeswine said:


> THE RAISINS MAY WORK OUT AS WELL,BUT THE RAISINS WILL ADD A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT SPIN ON THE TEXTURE THEY WE A GIFT FROM THE GODS OF WINE ,SO I TOOK THEM IN TOW AND WILL APPLY THEM AS I DID WITH THE AMARONE KIT,I WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO MAKE A CONCENTRATED WINE GRAPE FPAC AS SUPPLIED BY THE MANUFACTURE ONLY WE'LL MAKE IT HERE.........GO BACK AND READ THE STORY OF THE GRAPES IT'S INTERESTING TO SAY THE LEAST ........STAY TUNED


 
Joe, where does one buy the grapes?


----------



## dangerdave

This past spring, I got a juice bucket of Chilean Cab Sauv to make for myself for my 50th birthday (this past September). I tweaked the bucket with some California raisins and some oak, but after it was dry and clear came the real enhancer. I added dried currants to the carboy and let it sit for a month. The currants imparted a very nice hint of fruity sweetness to the wine. It is one of my favorates, and it hasn't even aged a year (there may be none left by then). Even people I know who do not usually drink dry red wine have commented that they like it.

Good choice, Joe!


----------



## geek

roger80465 said:


> I get mine at Safeway.



I don't think that is here in CT.


----------



## joeswine

*Corinthian grapes*

THEY WERE A FLUKE, JUST BY CHANCE AT A LOCAL PRODUCE STORE, BUT I WOULD HAVE ADDED PLUMS AT LEAST INSTEAD I WILL BE ADING FRESH PLUMS TO MY PINO NIOR. 


*REMENMBER PLANNING ALWAYS WORKS OUT *


----------



## geek

dangerdave said:


> This past spring, I got a juice bucket of Chilean Cab Sauv to make for myself for my 50th birthday (this past September). I tweaked the bucket with some California raisins and some oak, but after it was dry and clear came the real enhancer. I added dried currants to the carboy and let it sit for a month. The currants imparted a very nice hint of fruity sweetness to the wine. It is one of my favorates, and it hasn't even aged a year (there may be none left by then). Even people I know who do not usually drink dry red wine have commented that they like it.
> 
> Good choice, Joe!



Dave,

I assume that caused another fermentation, right?


----------



## vernsgal

dangerdave said:


> This past spring, I got a juice bucket of Chilean Cab Sauv to make for myself for my 50th birthday (this past September). I tweaked the bucket with some California raisins and some oak, but after it was dry and clear came the real enhancer. I added dried currants to the carboy and let it sit for a month. The currants imparted a very nice hint of fruity sweetness to the wine. It is one of my favorates, and it hasn't even aged a year (there may be none left by then). Even people I know who do not usually drink dry red wine have commented that they like it.
> 
> Good choice, Joe!



Dave how much currants did you add?


----------



## joeswine

*Winexperts cabernet sauvignon*

FIRST LETS DISCUSS THE FPAC,WERE GOING TO USE BLACK CORINTHIAN GRAPES HAND PRESSED ABOUT 1 TO 2 LBS.,TO THAT WE ARE GOING TO ADD WINE TANNINS(OAK POWDER) 2 TABLESPOONS ,ALONG WITH THE OAK CHIPS SUPPLIED AND MAYBE OAK CUBES DOWN THE LINE,WILL START WITH THE BENTONITE MIX, ADD THE WINE PACKAGE AND FILL TO THE 6 GALLON MARK,THEN TAKE A SG READING AND MOVE IT TO AT LEAST ( 1.10),THEN WE WILL ADD THE YEAST,TO START PRIMARY FERMENTATION.THE GRAPES WILL IMPART THEIR WARES IN THIS MIX AND SHOULD PROVE A PERFECT ASCENT TO THE CABERNET. 

ARE YOU READY???????????????
A Grape that isn't a Grape but is a Grape
Lon Rombough 
If you've ever had currant buns, or any other baked product with "currants" in them, you, like 99.9% of the public, thought the "currants" were the little red fruits that grow on bushes. Nope.
The dried "currants" used in baking are actually a true raisin, a dried grape. Called "currants" because one of the names of the grape they come FROM is "Zante Currant" also known as Black Corinth, and many other names, THIS is the variety dried INTO "currants" that are used in baking.
Black Corinth is the name you will usually find it under in America, though in recent years it has become known as "the Champagne grape" due to advertising by a produce dealer who specializes in it. Ironically, there is an old American grape called "Champagne" that is a very coarse, rough tasting labrusca grape of low quality, about as far FROM Champagne as you could get.
Black Corinth is a very odd grape in many ways. In it's natural state, the clusters have very few berries and they are hardly bigger than pinheads. In wild grapes, the sexes are in separate vines, male flowers on one, female flowers on another. This is true even in wild Vitis vinifera, the classic grape of commerce. Black Corinth is an "almost male" in that the flowers have well developed anthers, and very tiny ovaries, probably representing a first step towards evolution of a perfect flowered grape. Hence, when it does set fruit, there are only a few per cluster and the berries are tiny and seedless. However, the variety was doubtless kept as a source of pollen so that the female flowered varieties would set full crops.
How did Black Corinth come to be used at all, if the berries are so few and tiny?
It's a very old variety, probably Greek, and the story goes that a donkey was tied to a vine of it and the animal started going around the vine until the halter rope rubbed the bark off. Instead of dying, the vine healed the wound and the grapes, which were minuscule in other years, were large enough to eat after the vine was girdled. There is certainly a grain of truth in the fable as girdling was a standard practice in increasing the set and size of seedless grapes until the discovery of the plant hormone gibberellic acid and it's ability to do the same thing with less labor.
Girdling, or hormone treatment, causes the clusters to set full crops, though the berries are still tiny. Because the stems also remain tiny, the berries can be eaten with the stems on. This makes the variety seem very dainty and rather glamorous (thanks especially to articles showing frosted clusters of them with glasses of champagne - hence the "champagne" grape) and home growers who have seen this decide that Black Corinth would be fun to grow., which is too bad because it's NOT a home grower's grape.
First, of over 200 varieties in my collection, it is the most susceptible to powdery mildew. As pure Vitis vinifera, it is also completely susceptible to all the other diseases of grapes - downy mildew, black rot, etc. And since it comes FROM such a mild country, it can't be counted on as being hardy to much more than 0°F. But more than anything else, unless the vine is treated with hormone at bloom time, or girdled, the berries are minuscule and the clusters are straggly. So while it looked romantic in the magazine, it's NOT worth the work for most homeowners. Buy the fruit in the store, if you must, but don't bother trying to grow it.
Black Corinth - the grape that's a Currant (Zante) that's a grape.


----------



## geek

Joe, that WE Selection, is it 16L or 18L, does it have grape skins or not? (I assume it does not)


----------



## joeswine

*Winexperts cabernet sauvignon*

THE COMPONETS..
A Grape that isn't a Grape but is a Grape
Lon Rombough 
If you've ever had currant buns, or any other baked product with "currants" in them, you, like 99.9% of the public, thought the "currants" were the little red fruits that grow on bushes. Nope.
The dried "currants" used in baking are actually a true raisin, a dried grape. Called "currants" because one of the names of the grape they come FROM is "Zante Currant" also known as Black Corinth, and many other names, THIS is the variety dried INTO "currants" that are used in baking.
Black Corinth is the name you will usually find it under in America, though in recent years it has become known as "the Champagne grape" due to advertising by a produce dealer who specializes in it. Ironically, there is an old American grape called "Champagne" that is a very coarse, rough tasting labrusca grape of low quality, about as far FROM Champagne as you could get.
Black Corinth is a very odd grape in many ways. In it's natural state, the clusters have very few berries and they are hardly bigger than pinheads. In wild grapes, the sexes are in separate vines, male flowers on one, female flowers on another. This is true even in wild Vitis vinifera, the classic grape of commerce. Black Corinth is an "almost male" in that the flowers have well developed anthers, and very tiny ovaries, probably representing a first step towards evolution of a perfect flowered grape. Hence, when it does set fruit, there are only a few per cluster and the berries are tiny and seedless. However, the variety was doubtless kept as a source of pollen so that the female flowered varieties would set full crops.
How did Black Corinth come to be used at all, if the berries are so few and tiny?
It's a very old variety, probably Greek, and the story goes that a donkey was tied to a vine of it and the animal started going around the vine until the halter rope rubbed the bark off. Instead of dying, the vine healed the wound and the grapes, which were minuscule in other years, were large enough to eat after the vine was girdled. There is certainly a grain of truth in the fable as girdling was a standard practice in increasing the set and size of seedless grapes until the discovery of the plant hormone gibberellic acid and it's ability to do the same thing with less labor.
Girdling, or hormone treatment, causes the clusters to set full crops, though the berries are still tiny. Because the stems also remain tiny, the berries can be eaten with the stems on. This makes the variety seem very dainty and rather glamorous (thanks especially to articles showing frosted clusters of them with glasses of champagne - hence the "champagne" grape) and home growers who have seen this decide that Black Corinth would be fun to grow., which is too bad because it's NOT a home grower's grape.
First, of over 200 varieties in my collection, it is the most susceptible to powdery mildew. As pure Vitis vinifera, it is also completely susceptible to all the other diseases of grapes - downy mildew, black rot, etc. And since it comes FROM such a mild country, it can't be counted on as being hardy to much more than 0°F. But more than anything else, unless the vine is treated with hormone at bloom time, or girdled, the berries are minuscule and the clusters are straggly. So while it looked romantic in the magazine, it's NOT worth the work for most homeowners. Buy the fruit in the store, if you must, but don't bother trying to grow it.
Black Corinth - the grape that's a Currant (Zante) that's a grape.


----------



## kryptonitewine

Is it my ipad or is that the longest post in history??????????


----------



## roger80465

Same post repeated MANY times


----------



## joeswine

Sorry about that. Us old people have memory problems. We write the same thing OVER and OVER again.  

Oops. I forgot I wrote that.

Sorry about that. Us old people have memory problems. We write the same thing OVER and OVER again.  

See. It happens that fast.


----------



## joeswine

*Adding the Grape Pack*

We added 3 packs of Corinth Grapes tonight. *to our Cabernet*
I had these frozen and at the ready for when I did this kit.
First I defrosted them.
Then I gently pressed them in the bag to smooch them up. (I didn't want to totally kill them, must smooch them to release the juice and get them mushy.)
Then I added them to the bucket.
In a day or so these will float to the top and create a "cap". I periodically will punch them down gently to wait for this to go through fermentation. 

I also wanted to let you guys know that it's been chilly here in New Jersey. I had to add bellie bands. (Or some people call them other stuff, brew belts, heat bands, etc.) They basically go around your bucket and heat it up a bit so that the yeast keep on fermenting. (Yeast are not too happy when they get cold.) my ambient in the cellar is at 62 degrees at present.

* now I have just created a grape pack*


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet process with grape pack foward*

THE PROCESS IN FULL MOVING FORWARD.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet in review*

BALANCE OF FLOW........... THE SMELL IN THE BASEMENT OF THE CAB-AND THE GRAPES WORKING WITH EACH OTHER IS DELIGHTFUL TO THE SENSES,ALSO THE* PH* WHEN STARTED WAS AT 3.6.... * DEC. 24TH FERMENTATION HAS COMPLETED..TRANFER TO GLASS (WHAT A INTOXICATING AROMA) NICE PRESENT!*


----------



## geek

joe,

did you add both a frozen grapes pack you had and a non-frozen grapes?


----------



## LoneStarLori

I think I can smell it all the way down here. 
Joe I have to say I brought some of my Italian Sangiovese that I tweaked like you, to a family Christmas party and have gotten nothing but rave reviews. The Mezza luna also went over well. Here's to a great tweak teacher!


----------



## joeswine

*Answers*

GEEK, if you read back further you'll see that the batch was frozen till ready to use, then defrosted and applied.

Lori, you'll soon be the bell of the south in tweaking,good work on both wines, lady. your muscato was spot on.


----------



## RCGoodin

LoneStarLori said:


> I think I can smell it all the way down here.
> Joe I have to say I brought some of my Italian Sangiovese that I tweaked like you, to a family Christmas party and have gotten nothing but rave reviews. The Mezza luna also went over well. Here's to a great tweak teacher!


 
Joe & Lori,

I'm getting whiffs of it out here in Arizona...Happy Holidays to you guys and thanks for all your interactions this year. Really appreciated it.


----------



## Simpsini

Joe writes "I also wanted to let you guys know that it's been chilly here in New Jersey." 

Joe - It's chilly in northern AL also. The wife keeps the thermostat on 63. I don't have a bellie belt so I use a bulb on a lamp I made that I set next to my carboys that are in a closet. Keeps them about 76 degrees.


----------



## geek

Simpsini, that is a lot of head space in those carboys.....


----------



## Simpsini

Geek - You could be right. The Chardonnay is still fermenting & on the 26th I'm going to start Sur lies on it and I will top off with a chardonnay, so I'm not too worried about oxidation. Yesterday I added the sulphate & sorbate to the Pinot Noir. The instructions say not to top it off. I should be racking in 8 days when I plan on topping off. Right now I have a vacuvin wine saver on it & I'm constantly pumping it to degas. I think I'm keeping all the 02 out by doing it. Let me know if you believe I should go ahead & top off now. 

I start with 6 Gal in my primary but I always end up with so much less as I rack. Iwant to get some 5 gal carboys to rack into, but haven't had the chance to order them. Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## sdelli

Simpsini said:


> Joe writes "I also wanted to let you guys know that it's been chilly here in New Jersey."
> 
> 
> 
> Joe - It's chilly in northern AL also. The wife keeps the thermostat on 63. I don't have a bellie belt so I use a bulb on a lamp I made that I set next to my carboys that are in a closet. Keeps them about 76 degrees.




Bulb? Hmmm.... I was thinking less light the better... I also have a small closet I use for primary and secondary fermentation periods... I use a small electric heater and set it at 70 degrees. Works great and does not have to work very hard due to the size of the closet.....


----------



## joeswine

*Lightning strikes?*

THINGS TO REMEMBER=
*Lightstrike*

Lightstruck wines are those that have had excessive exposure to ultraviolet light, particularly in the range 325 to 450 nm.[8] Very delicate wines, such as Champagnes, are generally worst affected, with the fault causing a _wet cardboard_ or _wet wool_ type flavour and aroma. Red wines rarely become lightstruck because of the phenolic compounds present within the wine that protect it. Lightstrike is thought to be caused by sulfur compounds such as dimethyl sulfide. In France lightstrike is known as "_goût de lumière_", which translates to _a taste of light_. The fault explains why wines are generally bottled in colored glass, which blocks the ultraviolet light, and why wine should be stored in dark environments.
* USE THE LIGHT FOR HEAT IF YOU CHOSE BUT COVER THEM WITH A BLANKET OR USE OLD BATH TOWELS,FRUIT FOR THOUGHT.*


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet reviewed*

OUR CABERNET HAS GONE FROM A RAW KIT TO A REFINED PEACE OF WORK,THE AROMA IS DEEP AND EARTHY, THE COLOR IS INKY BLACK,AL THOUGHT IT'S STILL NEEDS MORE TRANSFORMATION IT IS QUIETLY SITTING GOING THROUGH WHAT I CALL /TRANSFER SHOCK,FROM TUB FERMENTER TO GLASS,THIS IS THE FIRST TRANSFEREE I WILL DO ,IN ABOUT A WEEKS TIME I WILL RACK THE WINE TO A CLEAN CARBOY AND ADD TANNINS AT THAT POINT,YOU WILL BE SHOWN AS WE MOVE THROUGH THE PROCESS..

REMEMBER THE FLOW?  DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE SG WAS WHEN WE STARTED? OR THE PH? IT IS DOWN TO .998/CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THE POTENTIAL ACHOLO WAS AT FINISH?.............THINGS TO REMEMBER..... *THESE QUESTIONS ARE FOR BEGINNERS ONLY TO ANSWER. SCHOOL TIME IS IN !*

*STARTING SG=1.10 =ABV? APP:13% January 2nd we are at rest in glass next week we will do our first transfer and add oak tannin powder*
*January 4th it just snowed to day the basement is at 58 degrees, we will transfer next Thursday ,WEDNESDAY JANUARY 8TH FIRST RACKING AND FIRST ADDITION OF TANNINS..........THE WINE IS INK BLACK AND HAS A GREAT AROMA ......WILL WAIT TO TASTE .* THURSDAY *TASTING VERY NICE OAK WITH A TOUCH OF GRAPE THEN A SMOOTH FINISH ,GREAT LEGS AND THE WINE IS STILL A INFANT.*


----------



## LoneStarLori

Aw dang! Nobody told me there would be a math quiz.


----------



## LoneStarLori

I just have to share this from my Facebook page. Somehow a bottle of my Joeswine tweaked Sangiovese got in the hands of my daughters' sister-in-law. Here's what she wrote about it. That wine turned out to be a favorite of anyone who got a taste. I'm down to 6 bottles.


----------



## ShelleyDickison

I just started 2 Grand Cru International kits...Australian Cabernet Sauvignon and a California Syrah. Since these came with grape skins is there some thing else I can or should be using to help them alone. It's my first reds and I really want them to be good. Also I know at some point I will need to top off so if anyone has a hint for a commercial equivalent I can use instead of water I would appreciate it.


----------



## kryptonitewine

Congrats Lori. It's always nice to get some positive feedback.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Shelly I got my first red kit with skins the other day too. I want to tweak it but it comes with skins and wood so about the only thing I will probably do is more tannin. It came with 2 different bags of wood that are supposed to be put in at day one. I saved one for later in the process. So maybe tannin and 2nd oak chips at about 1.02. Like I would normally do with raisins and tannin.

If anyone has any other ideas, I love to hear them. Hint, hint... Joe


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet continued*

*cabernet moved forward........ here's were we are ,the wine has left the primary and in glass in the secondary, at this point we need it to relax and become itself, the wines taste at this point is oaky, great legs and has a earth but with a hint of grape at the finish ,it's young but it's what a cabernet should be ...........the addition of the black Corinthian grapes was spot on for this style of wine............*


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet process with grape pack foward*

Balance of process....... AT THIS POINT THE CAB IS AT REST WE'LL MOVE ON TO ANOTHER PROJECT AND COME BACK SOON.

REMEMBER THE SG WAS AT 1.10 WHEN WE STARTED =ABV 12/13 %
THE ACIDITY LEVEL WAS AT 3.6
THE COLOR IS INK BLACK AND VERY EARTHY IN TASTE WITH A SLITE FINISH OF GRAPE 

JANUARY 22 ,THE BASEMENT TEMPERATE JUST DROOED 2 DEGREES DO TOO THE SNOW OUT SIDE ,NOT A PROBLEM THE CAB IS AT REST........IT WILL ACTUALLY HELP WITH THE CLEARRING PROCESS.......


----------



## joeswine

*Go back and review the process*






GO BACK AND REVIEW THE PROCESS


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone*

THE KING OF THE ITALIAN BIG REDS.



IN THE BEGINNING 

RAISINS AND TANNINS ADDITION TO THE MIX...........................................................................

WE WILL ALSO CAPITALIZE THE WINE..REMEMBER THE PROCESS FOR MAKING SIMPLE SYRUP?

DO YOU REMEMBER THE DEFERENCE BETWEEN BACK SWEETING AND CAPITALIZATION?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHICH OF THE TWO PROCESS WILL INCREASES THE ABV?

IT'S FUN TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

PLANNING OUT YOUR WINE PROCESS SHOULD BECOME SECOND NATURE ,IF NOT TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND UNDERSTAND IT,IT IS YOUR BIGGEST ALIE AND WITHOUT IT YOU WILL BE LOST,ASK QUESTIONS,THAT'S HOW WE LEARN AND ABOVE IT ALL HAVE FUN.........................................................LET THE WINE BEGIN...................................


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone*

THE KING OF THE ITALIAN BIG REDS.



RAISINS AND TANNINS ADDITION TO THE MIX...........................................................................


----------



## sdelli

Hey Joe..... Here is one for you to consider. I just started it last week..... Should make a great summer drink. WineExpert Special Chocolate/Orange Port!


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


----------



## LoneStarLori

joeswine said:


> THE KING OF THE ITALIAN BIG REDS.
> 
> 
> 
> RAISINS AND TANNINS ADDITION TO THE MIX...........................................................................




I can't wait to do that one. It's on the short bucket list. 


Sent from my iPhone 5s


----------



## joeswine

*Chocolate /orange [port*

I HAVE MADE THIS A VERY LONG TIME AGO,THIS KIT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE,I COULD SEE THE ADDITION OF ORANGE ZEST AND PURE COCOA POWDER AT A HIGH RATE 60%, ALONG WITH SMALL AMOUNT OF TANNINS STARTING AT A SG OF 1.10...............BLENDED OUT WITHOUT ANYMORE ABV............................


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone moving forward*

GO BACK TO SEE THE LAY OUT THEN MOVE FORWARD.............

PREPERATIONS............


 LET THE WINE BEGIN


----------



## sdelli

joeswine said:


> I HAVE MADE THIS A VERY LONG TIME AGO,THIS KIT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE,I COULD SEE THE ADDITION OF ORANGE ZEST AND PURE COCOA POWDER AT A HIGH RATE 60%, ALONG WITH SMALL AMOUNT OF TANNINS STARTING AT A SG OF 1.10...............BLENDED OUT WITHOUT ANYMORE ABV............................



So it sounds like you don't like this kit..... You rather start with a regular port kit and make the adjustments on your own?


----------



## joeswine

*port kits*

WHAT I MEAN IS THE KIT IS A GREAT BASE TO DEVERT FROM,BUT THTA'S JUST MY WAY.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet in review with black corthinian grapes*

CABERNET IN REVIEW..IT'S ABOUT 58 TO 60 DEGREES IN THE BASEMENT SO THE WORK IS SLOW JUST LIKE THE WINE MAKER..

If you've ever had currant buns, or any other baked product with "currants" in them, you, like 99.9% of the public, thought the "currants" were the little red fruits that grow on bushes. Nope.
The dried "currants" used in baking are actually a true raisin, a dried grape. Called "currants" because one of the names of the grape they come FROM is "Zante Currant" also known as Black Corinth, and many other names, THIS is the variety dried INTO "currants" that are used in baking.
Black Corinth is the name you will usually find it under in America, though in recent years it has become known as "the Champagne grape" due to advertising by a produce dealer who specializes in it. Ironically, there is an old American grape called "Champagne" that is a very coarse, rough tasting labrusca grape of low quality, about as far FROM Champagne as you could get.
Black Corinth is a very odd grape in many ways. In it's natural state, the clusters have very few berries and they are hardly bigger than pinheads. In wild grapes, the sexes are in separate vines, male flowers on one, female flowers on another. This is true even in wild Vitis vinifera, the classic grape of commerce. Black Corinth is an "almost male" in that the flowers have well developed anthers, and very tiny ovaries, probably representing a first step towards evolution of a perfect flowered grape. Hence, when it does set fruit, there are only a few per cluster and the berries are tiny and seedless. However, the variety was doubtless kept as a source of pollen so that the female flowered varieties would set full crops.
How did Black Corinth come to be used at all, if the berries are so few and tiny?
It's a very old variety, probably Greek, and the story goes that a donkey was tied to a vine of it and the animal started going around the vine until the halter rope rubbed the bark off. Instead of dying, the vine healed the wound and the grapes, which were minuscule in other years, were large enough to eat after the vine was girdled. There is certainly a grain of truth in the fable as girdling was a standard practice in increasing the set and size of seedless grapes until the discovery of the plant hormone gibberellic acid and it's ability to do the same thing with less labor.
Girdling, or hormone treatment, causes the clusters to set full crops, though the berries are still tiny. Because the stems also remain tiny, the berries can be eaten with the stems on. This makes the variety seem very dainty and rather glamorous (thanks especially to articles showing frosted clusters of them with glasses of champagne - hence the "champagne" grape) and home growers who have seen this decide that Black Corinth would be fun to grow., which is too bad because it's NOT a home grower's grape.
First, of over 200 varieties in my collection, it is the most susceptible to powdery mildew. As pure Vitis vinifera, it is also completely susceptible to all the other diseases of grapes - downy mildew, black rot, etc. And since it comes FROM such a mild country, it can't be counted on as being hardy to much more than 0°F. But more than anything else, unless the vine is treated with hormone at bloom time, or girdled, the berries are minuscule and the clusters are straggly. So while it looked romantic in the magazine, it's NOT worth the work for most homeowners. Buy the fruit in the store, if you must, but don't bother trying to grow it.
Black Corinth - the grape that's a Currant (Zante) that's a grape.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet the long version*

CABERNET THE LONG VERSIONTHE Cabernet:
Aroma- oak
Tastes a bit of smoked oak, nice cab flavor.
Nice and dry, Not thin, but not a full bodied wine. Needs to sit
*CAB IS THE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT TASTING NOTES TO FOLLOW..........STARTED 12/19/2013*


----------



## joeswine

*Taste profile at this point*

TASTE PROFILE AT THIS POINT FROM 12/19/2013



Cabernet: (started 12/19/2013- Winexpert Selection Kit with added Corinth grapes)
Aroma- oak
Tastes a bit of smoked oak, nice cab flavor.
Nice and dry, Not thin, but not a full bodied wine. Needs to sit 


THE CAB IS THE LAST ON THE RIGHT..THE PROFILE IS PRVIDED BY OTHERS..........


----------



## joeswine

*Expresso cello*

where going to take a *side step* while the *cab* is resting that will be done shortly I WANT TO PRESENT TO my version of a 

EXPRESSO cello: DEEP DARK SMOOTH AND LUSCIOUS AT THE FINISH WITH A TASTE OF CHOCOLATE

THIS will also give you SOME time to regroup and get you ingredients together to make it along with US ,OK ?

OVER ALL RUNNING TIME 1 MONTH FROM START TO A GREAT FINISH


----------



## joeswine

*The mix*

*Espresso Cello
*What we used:
9 cups espresso* (this is your base)* (1 ball jar)
½ ball jar *simple syrup
*½ ball jar *coffee bean extract
*½ cup *EVERKLEER*
WHAT NEXY? Add your base (all the espresso, dump in the pot.)
Next , add the coffee bean extract (little at a time, to taste).
Then, add simple syrup to taste, a little at a time. 
The, taste to see if the* ACHOLO LEVEL*. Is good. Most likely, it will need more.
Add *EVERKLEER to taste,* make sure to not put too much that it overpowers. 
Once you are happy with the results, pour back into (2) clean ball jars and put the lids back on. It should sit a day or so to blend. Then you are ready for bottling. 
Espresso Cello
What we used:
*9 cups espresso (this is your base) (1 ball jar) REMEMBER IT'S YOURS MAKE IT THAT WAY...*


----------



## GaDawg

Just add a little milk and drink


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet sauvignon*

 
This kit is a Winexpert Selection Series Cabernet Sauvignon. This kit has the following included. 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 1 Packet of Red Star Premier Cuvee Yeast
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Sorbate
· Package of Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· 2 Packages of Premium Oak
*We are going to reconstruct this kit and take it from a medium grade kit to a top-of-the-line kit by adding the following:*​ 

Corinth black grapes BLACK CORINTHIAN GRAPES ARE ADDED IN THE PRIMARY
Powdered Oak wine tannins WINE TANNINS ARE ADDED IN THE SECONDARY
American Oak Cubes THE OAK CHIPS ARE ADDED IN THE PRIMARY 
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Wash your hands!
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· *Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. *
· We took a PH reading and it came out 3.5
· Now, here comes all that oak! We are adding the 2 packets of Premium Oak Cubes and 2 TBSP’s of the OAK TANNINS (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! We then add the packet of Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days.
· 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
*Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. **

**We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet *wine tannins  

WHAT A GREAT COMBINATION OF MIXS
FINIAL TO BOTTLING!


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet moving forward*

THE PROCESS CONTINUED.................

REMEMBER IT WAS COLD IN THE BASEMENT SO WE ADDED HEATER STRIPES,WE FROZE THE GRAPES UNTIL WE WERE READY TO USE THEM AND GENTLY SMASHED THEM IN THE AIR TIGHT BAGS,ADDED THEM TO THE MIX WITH THE OAK AND YEAST,GENTLY PUNCHED THEM DOWN,WHEN IT WAS TIME WE RACKED THE GRAPES OFF ALONG WITH THE OAK,TRANSFERED TO GLASS,DEGASED AND THEN JUST WAITED,AND WAITED,THAT'S THE NATURE OF THIS CRAFT PATIENTS,YOU MUST LEARN PATIENTS,EASIER SAID THEN DONE AND THEN FINALLY WHEN THE TASTE WAS RIGHT IT WAS BOTTLING TIME AND THE FINAL PACKAGE ,HOPE YOU ENJOYED THE JOURNEY WITH US ,STAY TONED.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet in review with black corthinian grapes*

   



GO BACK AND REVIEW THE CABERNET PROCESS.POST # 679


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet in review with black corthinian grapes*

BLACK CORTHINIAN GRAPES AND CABERNET ARE A AWESOME COMBINATION TOGETHER FOLLOW THE PROCESS STRAIGHT ON THROUGHT...............
A Grape that isn't a Grape but is a Grape

If you've ever had currant buns, or any other baked product with "currants" in them, you, like 99.9% of the public, thought the "currants" were the little red fruits that grow on bushes. Nope.
The dried "currants" used in baking are actually a true raisin, a dried grape. Called "currants" because one of the names of the grape they come FROM is "ZANTES Currant" also known as Black Corinth, and many other names, THIS is the variety dried INTO "currants" that are used in baking.
Black Corinth is the name you will usually find it under in America, though in recent years it has become known as "the Champagne grape" due to advertising by a produce dealer who specializes in it. Ironically, there is an old American grape called "Champagne" that is a very coarse, rough tasting labrusca grape of low quality, about as far FROM Champagne as you could get.
Black Corinth is a very odd grape in many ways. In it's natural state, the clusters have very few berries and they are hardly bigger than pinheads. In wild grapes, the sexes are in separate vines, male flowers on one, female flowers on another. This is true even in wild Vitis vinifera, the classic grape of commerce. Black Corinth is an "almost male" in that the flowers have well developed anthers, and very tiny ovaries, probably representing a first step towards evolution of a perfect flowered grape. Hence, when it does set fruit, there are only a few per cluster and the berries are tiny and seedless. However, the variety was doubtless kept as a source of pollen so that the female flowered varieties would set full crops.
How did Black Corinth come to be used at all, if the berries are so few and tiny?
It's a very old variety, probably Greek, and the story goes that a donkey was tied to a vine of it and the animal started going around the vine until the halter rope rubbed the bark off. Instead of dying, the vine healed the wound and the grapes, which were minuscule in other years, were large enough to eat after the vine was girdled. There is certainly a grain of truth in the fable as girdling was a standard practice in increasing the set and size of seedless grapes until the discovery of the plant hormone gibberellic acid and it's ability to do the same thing with less labor.
Girdling, or hormone treatment, causes the clusters to set full crops, though the berries are still tiny. Because the stems also remain tiny, the berries can be eaten with the stems on. This makes the variety seem very dainty and rather glamorous (thanks especially to articles showing frosted clusters of them with glasses of champagne - hence the "champagne" grape) and home growers who have seen this decide that Black Corinth would be fun to grow., which is too bad because it's NOT a home grower's grape.
First, of over 200 varieties in my collection, it is the most susceptible to powdery mildew. As pure Vitis vinifera, it is also completely susceptible to all the other diseases of grapes - downy mildew, black rot, etc. And since it comes FROM such a mild country, it can't be counted on as being hardy to much more than 0°F. But more than anything else, unless the vine is treated with hormone at bloom time, or girdled, the berries are minuscule and the clusters are straggly. So while it looked romantic in the magazine, it's NOT worth the work for most homeowners. Buy the fruit in the store, if you must, but don't bother trying to grow it.
Black Corinth - the grape that's a Currant (Zante) that's a grape.
THE BEAUTY BEHIND THIS PROFILE IS THAT IT WAS A NATURAL FIT THE EARTHY COMPLETE TEXTURE OF THE GRAPE COMBINED WITH THE STABLENESS OF THE CABERNET MADE IT A GOOD FIT ,YOU COULD ALSO DO THIS WITH ZANTE CURRENTS AND I THINK I WILL TRY IT,HOW ABOUT YOU?

 NOW WE WAIT TO CLEAR AND BOTTLE............STAY THE COURSE...........


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joe, I'm getting ready to start a Mezza Luna Red with dried Zante Currants. Once again, you got my wheels turning.


----------



## joeswine

*Mazza luna red*

It's a open palate,zantes will work well concord grapes will also do but just a *small bunch*, THIS WOULD ACT AS YOUR GRAPE PAC but what ever you do i would buy a good bottle of* merlot* for topping off and add that would add a depth to the mix ,picture it a sauce and your ready to add the main ingredients,,,,tannins ,zantes,cab,got it!


----------



## LoneStarLori

Yep, got it. Sounds delicious already. 
to be sure, that's Merlot for topping, right? Not "tannins ,zantes,*cab*,got it!" as in your last line above.


----------



## joeswine

*Adding to the mix*

Where did the* not* come in ,did i miss something?


----------



## kryptonitewine

Lori, Joe's saying - do them all!

add the tannin and zante's to the secondary. When you need to top up use the Cab. This sounds great. I've always used a cheap wine for topping up thinking that it was a small amount and wouldn't add any flavor. Silly silly me. lesson learned. 

Thanks Joe.


----------



## peaches9324

love the cat label Joe. I think presentation adds to the mystique of the wine.


----------



## LoneStarLori

joeswine said:


> It's a open palate,zantes will work well concord grapes will also do but just a *small bunch*, THIS WOULD ACT AS YOUR GRAPE PAC but what ever you do i would *buy a good bottle of merlot for topping off* and add that would add a depth to the mix ,picture it a sauce and your ready to add the main ingredients,,,,tannins ,zantes,*cab*,got it!



I know I can be dense, but... it's just a _little_ confusing. 

I'll buy both and drink one. Or drink both and buy more.


----------



## kryptonitewine

LoneStarLori said:


> drink both and buy more.




That sounds like a good plan!!! Keep us posted on what you do. You planning on a photo post like you did with the Sang? That was great!

I noticed you had two different kits in your photo. You doing both the same, or changing them up a little bit? Maybe do one with the zante's the other with concord? Just a thought.


----------



## joeswine

*Adding to the mix*

THE SMALL BUNCH OF *CONCORD* WILL ACT AS YOUR GRAPE PAC,USE THEM AS NORMAL. THE* ZANTES* THEN MOVE TO THE SECONDARY AND ACT AS INFUSER AND YOUR COMPLEX INGREDIENT, NEXT BRING UP THE SG TO 1.10 THIS WILL BALANCE OUT THE WINE IN THE END, *IF YOU CHOSE NOT TO USE THE HANDFUL OF CONCORDS,*THEN JUST USE THE ZANTES IN THE SECONDARY ALONG WITH THE TANNINS,ALWAYS LOOK AT IT THIS WAY:

1ST. THE BASE WINE AT 1.10 SG
2ND. THE SPICES
3RD.THEN THE TANNINS
NOW THE SAUCE IS COMPLETED AND NOW YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE BALANCE IN WHAT EVER YOU BLEND.............................. ITS NOT COMPLICATED YOU'VE ALREADY DONE IT WITH THE *SANGIOVESE* I'VE JUST ADDED TWO MORE STEPS TO THAT END,FOR WHAT YOU HAVE IS A WINE BASE HEAVY IN CONCENTRATE ,PLENTY OF ROOM TO WORK..JJUST TAKE YOUR TIME AND PLAN IT OUT............................USING THE CAB AS A TOP OFF ELEMENT WILL ONLY ENHANCE THE TEXTURE AND MOUTHFEEL..TRUST ME...


----------



## LoneStarLori

kryptonitewine said:


> That sounds like a good plan!!! Keep us posted on what you do. You planning on a photo post like you did with the Sang? That was great!
> 
> I noticed you had two different kits in your photo. You doing both the same, or changing them up a little bit? Maybe do one with the zante's the other with concord? Just a thought.



The other kit is a Pinot Blanc. I will most likely use golden raisins but I'm open to ideas and suggestions. Any thoughts? I want to keep it kind of dry.

And yes, pictures are in the works. Thats the way I manage to keep notes. I go by the date the picture was taken if I forget to write something down.


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry pino nior*

*blackberry pino noir process from begging to fpac application..................follow the process and be sure to check out the simple fpac method..*
*Blackberry Pinot Noir*​ We purchased a medium grade kit (~$80-$90) Pinot Noir Winexpert Kit. We wanted Blackberry Pinot Noir so we purchased 1.5 lbs. of blackberries to go with this. 

*The Winexpert box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 1 Pack of Redstar Champagne Yeast
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
· Package #2 (bentonite)
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
· Package #4 (Sorbate)
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· Mesh Straining Bag
· 1 package of oak chips
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
· Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher alch. Content. It would just be juice with not much alch.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
· Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
· Then we added the oak chips and prinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit.
· Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the F-pak. 
· We added the the F-pak to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
· We added bellie-bands because it’s chilly in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. J


kate and kito are co-opting this kit together.........friends and wine making go hand and hand
​


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry pino nior*

making the fpac............follow simple and easy.........................

 do you see the pic with the lid on? that's there so that I can trap some of the berry liquid instead of just letting it evaporate this helped to build up the volume of juice ,*got it !*
* a slow and gentle pressure on the berries as their cooking allows them to break down with destroying them ,can you see them turn color as they cook, this is a simple and easy way to create flavor in your wine or even if I was going to make a blackberry wine this fpac I would have added in the secondary or cold pressed 1 month before bottling ,that's a different story for later.*


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry pino nior*

1ST racking.................NOTES:PICTURE 1 WAS THE FPAC WHEN WE STARTED OUR FERMENTATION,NOTICE THE RESIDUE WHEN WE FINISHED ,AND THE COLOR IS BLACK AS INK BUT THE SMELL IS STILL THERE,THIS IS A GOOD KIT TO WORK WITH .


----------



## LoneStarLori

Dang it joe! This just looks so good. I have been 'considering" a pinot nior and you have made me bump it to the top of the list. 
We are coming up on blackberry season here and it moses perfect sense to me. I think" I'll do at $70-80 kit. any suggestions?


----------



## joeswine

*Review the process*

ANY KIT WOULD WORK WITH THE WORK WE DO TO THEM THIS KIT I PICKED WAS $80...A PIECE BUT ,YOU KNOW HOW TO WORK THE PROCESS PLAN YOUR WORK, THEN WORK YOUR PLAN..AND YES WITH TIME THIS PROFILE BECOME EXCELLENT..


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry pino nior*

BLACKBERRY PINO NIOR PROCESS...ALONG *Blackberry Pinot Noir*​​We purchased a medium grade kit (~$80-$90) Pinot Noir Winexpert Kit. We wanted Blackberry Pinot Noir so we purchased 1.5 lbs. of blackberries to go with this. 

*The Winexpert box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Pack of Red start Champagne Yeast
· 2 Capitalization Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 1 package of oak chips
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend ONE STEP or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphate Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
· Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher alch. Content. It would just be juice with not much alch.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
· Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
· Then we added the oak chips and sprinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit. 
· Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the FPAC
· We added the FPAC to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
· We added bellie-bands because it’s chill
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
· Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher alch. Content. It would just be juice with not much alch.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
· Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
· Then we added the oak chips and prinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit. 
· Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the F-pak. 
· We added the te F-pak to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
· We added bellie-bands because it’s chilly in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. J

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.
WITH THE PRy in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. J

​​


----------



## joeswine

BLACKBERRY PINO CONTINUED.................FOLLOW.. MAKING A FPAC IS A SIMPLE AND FUN ITEM TO HAVE IN YOUR TOOL BOX OF KNOWLEDGE DEPENDING OF WHAT YOU WANT YOUR WINE YOUR WINE TO TURN OUT LIKE OR A BETTER _TERM_ IS (*TASTE PROFILE*) MASTER OR SUBORDINATE, YOU CAN ADD FLAVOR YOU JUST NEED TO" *THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX*"...........................
 YOU NEED TO BE GENTILE WITH THE FRUIT AND DO YOU SEE THE PIC WITH THE LID THAT'S TO CAPTURE THE CONDENSATE OF JUICE VAPOR ,PUTTING IT BACK INTO THE COMBINE TO BUILD UP JUICE WITH OUT ADDING WATER ALSO ,WHEN WE STARTED THE COOKING PROCESS I ADDED 1 CUP OF CABERNET SAUVIGNON AS A LIQUEFIER TO START THE PROCESS,INSTEAD OF WATER.ONCE COOLED DOWN PLACE INTO A PAINTERS BAG AND ALLOWED NATURE TO TAKE IT'S COURSE.
 I WANT TO TAKE A LINE AND SAY *THANK YOU* FOR THE CLOSE TO 800 PM'S I HAVE RECEIVED FROM THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE JOURNEYED WITH ME AND MY OFF THE WALL METHODS AND TO THOSE WHO HAVE BENEFITED BY THEM AND THANKS TO THE MOD'S FOR THEIR PATIENTS AND ALLOWING ME TO *RAMBLE.*


----------



## joeswine

*finish product*

finished product....................this was a fun project from start to finish and so far the taste results they will be outstanding, sometimes you have to look around you and you'll find some great fruits and grapes at different times of the season ,the black Corinthians package was one of those finds, the blackberry pino nior will be outstanding and a competitor in short order..have fun with this hobby and *think outside the box.....................................................................................*


----------



## joeswine

*Cello's*

Having fun with lemons.....WERE MAKING A LEMON CELLO MY WAY,FIRST THERE ARE TWO MAIN INGREDIENT LEMON EXTRACT AND SIMPLE SYRUP,ESTABLISH HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO END UP WITH SEE THE SIMPLE SYRUP IN THE BOTTLES AT LET A 2/3RD FILLS THEN WE ADD THE EXTRACT 1/2 A BOTTLE NOTICE HOW THEY SEPARATE ,STIR WELL AND TASTE IF YOUR GOOD TO GO ,THEN BOTTLE AS A ADDED TOUCH FOR EYE APPEAL I ADDED 2/3 DROPS OF YELLOW FOOD GRADE DYE THAT MAKES IT A FINISHED PRODUCT FOR ME AND WELL BALANCE AT THE SAME TIME,BECAUSE ITS TO MY TASTE AS WELL AS KATE'S SO THEIR IS MORE THEN ONE PALATE TO TEST FOR TASTE .ENJOY..


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joe, that looks nummy. I've never had a cello. Can you describe the taste?


----------



## sour_grapes

LoneStarLori said:


> I've never had a cello. Can you describe the taste?



A little wooden, a bit stringy, with a note of pine.


----------



## joeswine

*lemon cello's*

think of a lemonade ,only a bit thicker in texture,smooth well balanced between lemon and ACHOLO,definitely a sweet desert wine great for after dinner, easy to make and fun to share. 

*I only made a two bottle batch or I would be glad to share with my southern lady.*

WHAT YOU SEE IN THE JARS ARE 2/SIMPLE SYURPS,LEMON EXTRACT,CITRUS EXTRACT AND _KEY LIME EXTRACT OF WHICH I'M GOING TO ADD THAT TO GRAY GOOSE VODKA AND CREATE A KEY LIME VODKA.THIS WAS A REQUEST .._


----------



## LoneStarLori

That sounds a little tastier than wood and pine. Lol
Thanks for thinking of your "belle" but it's probably too sweet for my taste. I don't even like Moscato. 
Now a lemon meringue pie or key lime vodka? I'm all over that. I may try to make that.


----------



## joeswine

*lemon cello's*

YES IT'S A SWEET DESERT WINE THAT'S THE NATURE OF A CELLO,SINCE YOU MENTIONED IT, MY GOD DAUGHTER IS A BARTENDER AND SHE WAS GIVE A VODKA (KEY LIME) TO BE PRECISE AND IT WAS VERY TASTY, I THOUGH I WOULD SEE WHAT I COULD DO WITH THAT ,IF I MAKE IT I'LL SEND IT OKAY...............................................


----------



## LoneStarLori

How can I resist? I love OPW.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone*


​

. 

.
*Wineexpert Amarone*​Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!)
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
· Package #2 (bentonite)
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
· Package #4 (Sorbate)
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· Mesh Straining Bag
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

​


----------



## joeswine

*A*

Follow the process,note the adjustments to this kit...JUST SO YOUR ARAE THE STARTING SG WAS AROUND 1.08 BUT WE KNOW FORST HAND THAT WE WER GOING TO CAPITOLIZE THIS WINE ,THAT IS TO BRING THE ACHOLO LEVEL AT THE END TO 14%OR AT LEAST THEATR WAS THE GOAL.ALSO THE GREPA PAC WAS ADDED IN THE PRIMARY ALONG WITH THE OAK CKIPS BUT I ADDED TANNINS TO THE SECONDARY ALONG WITH RASINIS TO BOOST THE STRUCTURE AND BODY OF THE WINE............................IT WAS WORK BUT IT WAS WORTH THE EFFORT..

 2 BE CONTINUED.........................


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone moving forward*

we have to boost the acholo level in this wine because of it's very natural characteristics, this is called capitalization.........just before fermentation is completed,if you follow what i do you'll notice i do this almost as a rule ,by adding the simple syrup in the beginning I increase the POTENTIAL ABV AT THE END..GOT IT!


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the big italian red*

MOVING FORWARD...................... DID WE TELL YOU WE ADDED RAISINS TO THE MIX THAT'S IS WHAT AMARONE IS KNOWN FOR THE ADDITION OF DRIED GRAPES TO THE MIX ,THAT EARTHY ,DEEP TASTE WITH HIGH ACHOLO LEVELS BALANCED OUT WITH THE GREAT TEXTURE OF OAK AND TANNINS.


----------



## Enologo

Joe, At what point did you add the raisins to the Amarone Primary or Secondary??


----------



## joeswine

*Adding raisins*

IN most cases I always add the supporting cast into the secondary I always want to make sure my base is done but not quite finished fermentation, this then will start a rehydration and extraction of the raisins ,they will then give up themselves to the wine. THIS IS MY WHY OF DOING IT....................


----------



## markb1983

Joe, Do you take the raisins out then add the clarifing agents? I have my second carboy going and would have to rack into another carboy. Is this my plan ?

Also how lond do i want to leave the raisins in it?


----------



## joeswine

*Raisins in the secondary????*

the raisins are left in the secondary about two weeks that's long enough for the extraction process to take place, then let it settle out for a week or two , making sure the degassing process is complete, then rack= let it set ,take ph and sg readings= when you are sure the wine is still then go into the final clearing stages, actually I prefer several racking and no clearing agents with reds, by doing that as part of the process and letting time do it's work I don't strip out needed tannins and flavor compounds, understand?


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the big italian red*

have you followed the steps so far...next we let it rest then we bottle. Stay tuned


----------



## Simpsini

Joe - I enjoy following your post. How many raisins to you add? 

Dave


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone in the end*

Bottling process we do it manual style for those who go it the traditional way.


----------



## geek

Joe, how that Amarone taste at this young stage?
I assume it is only a couple months old..


----------



## joeswine

*Geek*

THIS IS A REVIEW OF A AMARONE KIT MADE PRIER IT IS A EXCELLENT FINISH TO A GREAT WINE ,DEEP IN TASTE AND STRONG IN BODY DONE THIS WAY.


----------



## sdelli

I bottled my Amarone yesterday. It spent 4 months in a barrel.... Taste great! But I gota tell ya... A couple glasses of this type of wine will take you for a loop! I can drink a bottle of Cab and not feel much at all... A glass and a half of Amarone... Woo budy... 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


----------



## Boatboy24

Which one did you make?


----------



## sdelli

WE Selection


Sam


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese process*

Sanginvese processs with rasinis added.


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese process*

Winexpert Sangiovese​Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kit from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase. 
*Next:
*Ok, today is 7 days from when we started this kit. We took our specific gravity reading and it is at 1.028. Slowly it's fermenting dry. 
I also put up a picture of what the bucket looks like right now. You can see there are some bubbles and oak chips floating on top. It smells great! Stay tuned- it will be going into the carboy for secondary fermentation soon.. 
*Next:
*Sorry this was so late getting posted. I had a few hectic weeks. I did manage to take the pictures to keep up with the process. Here we go- it’s getting interesting!

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out. 
*Next:
*Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation: 
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged. 
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at. 
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content. 
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster. 
 Winexpert Sangiovese​Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kit from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase. 
*Next:
*Ok, today is 7 days from when we started this kit. We took our specific gravity reading and it is at 1.028. Slowly it's fermenting dry. 
I also put up a picture of what the bucket looks like right now. You can see there are some bubbles and oak chips floating on top. It smells great! Stay tuned- it will be going into the carboy for secondary fermentation soon.. 
*Next:
*Sorry this was so late getting posted. I had a few hectic weeks. I did manage to take the pictures to keep up with the process. Here we go- it’s getting interesting!

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out. 
*Next:
*Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation: 
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged. 
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at. 
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content. 
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster. 
*Final step to our Sangiovese kit: Bottling!
*


Before we started, we got all the tools out of our toolbox that we would need. We also sanitized all our bottles and had them ready.
What we had ready before we started:
Sanitized Bottles
Funnel
Ferrari Bottle Filler
Long Stirring wand
seals
corks
Packets of Sorbate and K-Met that came with the kit
my bottle sealing tool (don't know what it's called but it holds the seal on top the bottle while I dip it into boiling water), notice we didn't filter, that's because we racked down to clear.

Next, we dumped the 2 packets of ingredients into the carboy and gave it a stir w/ the wand (I didn't take a picture of this, you all know how to just give it a stir.)

I then placed the Ferrari bottling tool on top of an empty bottle, put the larger hose into the carboy and applied suction to the smaller hose to start the syphon. Once the wine starts to flow I place this smaller hose into an empty bottle just so it's out of the way. 

What is great about this tool is that once a bottle is full it automatically stops the wine flow so that it doesn't overflow. You will see that it gets to a certain level in the little chamber and then it stops filling. When this happens you put the Ferrari tool into the next bottle and proceed. 

When you have all bottles filled, you cork them. Once they are corked you seal them.

Fit the seal over the bottle, I use a tool that holds the seal on top the bottle for me as I dip them into boiling water. I dip it in, give it one twist real quick and pull it out. (Literally takes 2 seconds and it's sealed.)


----------



## joeswine

*blabkberry pino noir*

a great base wine with a beautiful full body finish.* Winexpert Pinot Noir​* 　
Here is a kit that we purchased from one of our local brew shops, Richland Hardware. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Cabernet. This kit has the following included:

*The box includes the following: 
*  Large bag of juice 
  1 packs of Lavin 1118 Yeast 
  Package of Bentonite
  Package of Metabisulphite 
  Package of Sorbate 
  Package of Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
  1 package of medium-blend toasted Oak 
　
* As always, I make additions to any wine kit that I receive to personalize it. The following items do not come with the kit- they are out of my "toolbox":
*  Powdered Oak
  1 qt. mason jar of simple syrup (depending on the SG at the beginning of the kit, we may or may not need this, I always have in handy just in case.)
  4 fresh black berries Just* for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
  Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
  Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
  Measuring cup 
  Hydrometer and test jar 
  Thermometer 
  Wine thief 
  Siphon rod and hose 
  Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
  Bung and Air lock 
  Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
  Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
  Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
  30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
  Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
* The Process:* 
  As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Yip, including yourself! 
  Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
  Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
  *Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
*  Now, here comes all that oak! We are adding the 1 packet of toasted oak chips PLUS 2 TBSP of the powdered oak tannin (AWESOME!). 
  Next is the YEAST! 1 packet of 1118 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days.
　
* Secondary Fermentation:
* 
*Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it.* 

* Notice the aroma? I personally like the smell of fermenting wine. <SNIFF!> Ahh… 
Ok. 
 We racked this down to a carboy. I but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and let it degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 
* UPDATE:​ We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection Pinot Noir Kit. *We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. *

*For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.
*


----------



## joeswine

*Making the fpac*

Making the fpac, IT'S NOT HARD BUT YOU NEED PATIENTS TO SLOWLY SAUTÉ DOWN THE FRUIT AND THEN STEAM, THEN CONTINUE TO SAUTÉ UNTIL A CONSISTENCE DEVELOPS BETWEEN SAUCE AND SOME WHOLE AND PARTIALLY BROKEN DOWN FRUIT THEN LET IT COOL AND PLACE IT IN A STRAINER BAG(PAINTERS BAG) AND LET NATURE TAKE IT'S TURN. *UNDERSTAND THIS* :THIS IS JUST MY WAY OF MAKING A FPAC,WHEN CONCERTINAING AT THIS POINT I WANT THE BLACK BERRIES TO BECOME PARTNERS WITH THE PINO NIOR,THAT'S A DIFFERENT SCENARIO FROM PLACING THEN IN THE SECONDARY WHERE THEY WILL ONLY IMPART BACKGROUND TO THE BASE OR SOME OTHER ATTRACTION TO ENHANCE THE OVERALL MIX. CLEAR?


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet in review with black corthinian grapes*

BOTTLING MANUAL STYLE..............STILL FUN AND FAST WHEN YOUR PREPARED...............LETS GO......


----------



## vernsgal

joeswine said:


> a great base wine with a beautiful full body finish.* Winexpert Pinot Noir​*
> Here is a kit that we purchased from one of our local brew shops, Richland Hardware. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Cabernet. This kit has the following included:
> 
> *The box includes the following:
> *  Large bag of juice
>  1 packs of Lavin 1118 Yeast
>  Package of Bentonite
>  Package of Metabisulphite
>  Package of Sorbate
>  Package of Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
>  1 package of medium-blend toasted Oak
> 
> * As always, I make additions to any wine kit that I receive to personalize it. The following items do not come with the kit- they are out of my "toolbox":
> *  Powdered Oak
>  1 qt. mason jar of simple syrup (depending on the SG at the beginning of the kit, we may or may not need this, I always have in handy just in case.)
>  4 fresh black berries Just* for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
>  Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
>  Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
>  Measuring cup
>  Hydrometer and test jar
>  Thermometer
>  Wine thief
>  Siphon rod and hose
>  Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
>  Bung and Air lock
>  Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
>  Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
>  Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing
>  30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
>  Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)
> * The Process:*
>  As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Yip, including yourself!
>  Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
>  Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all.
>  *Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10.
> *  Now, here comes all that oak! We are adding the 1 packet of toasted oak chips PLUS 2 TBSP of the powdered oak tannin (AWESOME!).
>  Next is the YEAST! 1 packet of 1118 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days.
> 
> * Secondary Fermentation:
> *
> *Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it.*
> 
> * Notice the aroma? I personally like the smell of fermenting wine. <SNIFF!> Ahh…
> Ok. 
> We racked this down to a carboy. I but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and let it degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent).
> * UPDATE:​ We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection Pinot Noir Kit. *We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. *
> 
> *For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker.
> 
> We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional.
> 
> We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.
> *


Joe when did you add your blackberry f-pak? Was it after you added the clearing agents etc?


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry fpac*

*follow this:  adding to primary with 3/ 4 quarts of blackberries this then becomes a blended wine.*

 ADDING A *SMALLER PORTION* TO THE SECONDARY THIS THEN TAKES ON A BACKGROUND NUANCE,UNDERSTAND? 

 DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU WANT THE OUTCOME TO BE IS WERE YOU PLACE THE BERRIES OR FPAC,LIKE THE VERBIAGE STATES/ *FPAC* (FLAVOR PACKAGE),OKAY? IT'S FUN AND CAN BE VERY REWARDING KNOWING THE DIFFERENCS.
FPAC


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Joe. So if adding to primary should I still cook the berries down?


----------



## joeswine

*fpac*

yes but don't destroy all the berry,* follow the example*. Follow it then in stall in the wine bag remember this will take a little longer to complete..as a kit..


----------



## joeswine

*Vino Italiano Blackberry Zinfandel Kit*​ *This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the Zinfandel juice, a blackberry F-pak, labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)What we added: *
*2 ball jars of simple syrup (each ball jar will bring the SG up .01%)*
*Spring Water*
***Oak Tannin** Note: We will add this in the secondary, not primary*
*The steps:*
*First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.*
*Next, we added the packet of Zinfandel juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. *
*Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.070. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.09. We wanted this specific SG reading because 1. We like nice alcohol in our wine and 2. We wanted it to be well balanced. This kit contains an F-pak so the higher alch. Will balance it out- it won’t be too sweet . *
*Next, we gave the bucket a good stir and added the yeast.*
*The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait. *
******Update!!******
*We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.98. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy. *
*Our wine is coming along!*
*Stay tuned... *


----------



## joeswine

*Moving forward*

WHILE THIS KIT IS SITTING LETS TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING ELSE..................
*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​*The box includes the following: *
·Large bag of juice
·2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
·1 Coffee Port F-Pack
·Package of bentonite
·Package of Metabisulphite
·Package of Potassium Sorbate
·Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
·Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
·Instant Coffee
·Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
·Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
·Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
·Measuring cup
·Hydrometer and test jar
·Thermometer
·Wine thief
·Siphon rod and hose 
·Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
·Bung and Air lock
·Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
·Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
·Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
·15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
·Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
·As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
·Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
·We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
·Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
·Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
·We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
·Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack.We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir. uice
*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry kit continued*

INEXPENSIVE KITS CONTINUED.........
Vino Italiano Blackberry Zinfandel Kit​This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the Zinfandel juice, a blackberry F-pak, labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)
*What we added: 
*2 ball jars of simple syrup (each ball jar will bring the SG up .01%)
Spring Water
**Oak Tannin** Note: We will add this in the secondary, not primary
*The steps:
*First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of Zinfandel juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. 
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.070. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.09. We wanted this specific SG reading because 1. We like nice alcohol in our wine and 2. We wanted it to be well balanced. This kit contains an F-pak so the higher alch. Will balance it out- it won’t be too sweet . 
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir and added the yeast.
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait. 
Update!!
We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.98. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy. 
Our wine is coming along!
Stay tuned... 
*REMEMBER THE REASON WE WANTED TO BOOST THE ACHOLO LEVEL ON THIS KIT???TO MAKE IT MORE OF A WINE.*


----------



## joeswine

**Update**
Hello Everyone!
We haven't posted the all-anticipated posts of this economically pleasing wine kit.  So tonight is the night! For those who are catching the back end of this tutorial, this is a Blackberry-Zinfandel Kit from Vino Italiano. This kit’s average price is ~$45.00. 
On 7/3/2014 we added the Blackberry F-pak, the clearing agent that came with the kit, the K-Met (Metabisulphate), Sorbate, stirred it up, and let it sit. 
Tonight we checked-in on this wine and gave it our winemakers check-up.
Appearance: Nice dark purple color
Aroma: Berries, oak, and a slight tar smell (which is indicative of a drinkable dark, red wine)
Taste: Definitely taste the blackberry. It's right on the money. Has a light oak taste. This wine finishes sweet but not overly sickening, which is nice. The higher alcohol content (from adding the extra sugar/simple syrup in the beginning) really balances it out like we thought going into this kit.
Although this wine is definitely drinkable to the average wine drinker, I would let this one sit another month to really let the flavors come together. However, if I was invited last minute to a BBQ, this I wouldn't be ashamed of grabbing a few bottle of this to share. 
This was a good purchase. It's a "filler" wine that I can share or drink while the other stuff I have is aging. 
Oh, and for the count- we got 27 bottles (plus one that was not quite full- we drank that). 
The total cost per bottle: $1.66. Can’t Beat that!

Cheers! 
Joe and Kate


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## joeswine

*Black berry kit continued*

go back and review the flow of the blackberry zinfandel


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## joeswine

*Amarone*

amarone the king of the big Italian reds is my favorite I must have 4 vintages sitting .so follow me on this journey and explore the possibilities.
here are the additions that we are adding to enhance and create our amarone
wine tannins, and raisins plus were going to capitalize the wine to boost the abv.so follow the process, not for everyone but I like to think outside the box.
 yeast type we chose was 212


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## geek

how much time in months do you give the Amarone before you start drinking it?


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## joeswine

*Amarone*

PARTNERS IN THE MIX........... HERE ARE THE PARTNERS IN THE MIX,SIMPLE SYRUP TO BOOST THE ADV. TO AROUND 14%
RAISINS TO ADD THE DEPTH *THAT IS AMARONE* AND WINE TANNINS FOR STRUCTURE AND SMOOTHNESS, FINALLY A *GRAPE FPAC* THIS WINE TAKES TIME TO DEVELOP IT MIGHT BE A 8 WEEK KIT BUT BELIEVE ME IT BECOMES A STAR IN ONE TO TWO FULL YEARS AND BEYOND THAT A $65.OO BOTLLE OF WINE .FOLLOW THE PROCESS AS WE TAKE OUR AMARONE TO A DIFFERENT LEVEL.


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## LoneStarLori

Joe, did that kit come with the dextrose for chapitalization? 
I received my Brunello Selection kit today. It came with EC1118, which I thought was kind of boring.


----------



## joeswine

*kit content*

yes it did,, it amounted to when rehydrated to 1.5 quarts of simple syrup so I added a full 2 QUARTS.remember 1118 is generic and is a fix all ,don't play it down, it's a very rewarding yeast and forgiving.


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## joeswine

*Tweaks and response*

HERE'S A FOOT NOTE FOR ALL OF YOU OUT THERE WHO FOLLOW THIS OR ANY OF MY OTHER THREADS,I HAVE LEARNED WHAT CAN BE DONE AND WHAT SHOULDN'T,T BE TRIED FROM *READING *AND *COMMON SENSE*,THE REASONING FOR ME NOT TO GET TO FANCY WITH THE YEAST IS AS FOLLOWS I'M TRYING TO MAKE OR CHANGE A FLAVOR PROFILE OF A SPECIFIC WINE TYPE OR STYLE IF MY YEAST IS ABLE TO CHANGE IT'S PROFILE THEN I'M NO LONGER IN CONTROL.ON THE OTHER HAND IF I WAS MAKING A STRAIGHT UP WINE KIT OR JUICE DOESN'T MATTER ,THEN I COULD CHOSE A YEAST TO ENHANCE THE FINAL OUTCOME .LORI,YOU AND I ARE NOT BORING!

IT'S THE SAME THING AS KNOWING WHAT THE IMPACT TO A WINES STRUCTURE WITH THE ADDITION OF RAISINS IN THE PRIMARY OR SECONDARY OR ADDING SIMPLE SYRUP IN THE PRIMARY OR AT THE FINISH OR SHOULD IT BE DONE AT ALL .*BLENDING STRAIGHT UP WINES IS NO BIG DEAL*,HOWEVER BLENDING* FRUIT* TO WINE IN THE PRIMARY OR *RAISINS *IN THE SECONDARY NOW THAT TAKES THOUGH AS TO WHAT HAPPENS TO THE STRUCTURE OF THE WINE AND HOW THE PARTNER SHIP BETWEEN THE TWO ELEMENTS AND HOW WELL THEY WORK TOGETHER OR* NOT*!
DOING YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU START THE NEXT KIT OR JUICE IS THE WAY TO GO AND IF YOU ARE CONSISTENT AT YOUR KNOWLEDGE GATHERING TECHNIQUES ,THEN YOU'LL ENJOY THE ART OF WINE MAKING AND ABOVE ALL ENJOY 

*THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX*


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## LoneStarLori

All good advice, joe. It's been a year now since I started making wine, and this is the most fun I've ever had thinking and planning. 
I've learned so much from you and your tweak threads. Keep em' coming!


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## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

I HAD SITTING IN THE BACKGROUND A CRU-PREMIUM KIT,IT JUST SO HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME LONE STAR LORI HAD JUST FINISHED THIS KIT AND I HAD THE GOOD CHANCE OF INTERCEPTING A TASTING,YOU'LL FIND OUR FEED BACK ON _(THINKING OUT SIDE THE BOX THREAD) SO HERE I GO DOING MINE WITH A FEW TOUCHES OF MY OWN,I WAS INSPIRE BY HERE CREATION DO TO THE FACT THE LORI IS SPOT ON WITH HER PROCESS SO WHAT I HAD WHAT WAS JUST ABOUT WHAT CRU WANTED IT FOR FINISH OUT LIKE,AND IT WAS SPOT ON._
_EVERY ITEM OR STEP IN THE PROCESS IS JUST ABOUT STEP BY STEP AND THAT'S OK,WHERE I STRAYED OFF THE PATH IS I BOOSTED UP MY ABV,TO A LITTLE OVER 1.10 ,SOAKED THE GRAPE PACK IN HEATED WATER FOR 15 MINUTES,STRAINED OF THE FPAC AND SPRING WATER THAT'S IT,I CAN ADJUST IF NEED TO LATER(THE GRAPE PACK I _*WHICH I* *WASN'T IMPRESSED WITH*_ )AND ADDED 1 GALLON OF WATER BUT FIRST I WANTED THIS LUSCIOUS TASTE TO COME THROUGH,FOLLOW THE PROCESS.... ..TOTAL 6 GALLONS ON THE NOSE!_


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

CRU KIT CONTINUED,YOU NO THE BASICS BENTONITE IN THE BEGINNING ADD THE JUICE PACK,THEN TAKE YOUR READINGS AND ADJUST IF YOU WANT TO *WE DID*,GOOD STIRRING ALL THE WHILE,ADD THE YEAST, WE STAYED WITH *EC1118 *DIDN'T WANT TO CHANGE TO MUCH AT THIS JUNCTURE ,ADDED TWO PACKS OF OAK,AND THEN THE GRAPE PACK WHICH WE REHYDRATE,PLACED OUR NOTES ON OUR HANGING TAG AND COVERED.NOW WE WAIT.


----------



## LoneStarLori

I agree with you on the grape skins. I hadn't done a kit with them before and didn't expect them to have to be rehydrated. I kind of questioned why they couldn't be just added to the juice as-is. After all, they would rehydrate on their own in the primary.


----------



## joeswine

*fpac,???????????????*

I believe that in the beginning when I tasted one it actually had the same flavor as a raisin? after rehydrate not to much change in the fpac except the piece I took out to taste was a little sweeter but that's all. They must have had a reason, but what a good way of getting read of pulp instead of feeding it to pigs and reintroducing it to the soil. Make some money off it, we'll see how this plays out I must also state that the aroma is great.
day one of fermentation reading, added simple syrup ( to boost abv),took reading, took ph reading, added both packages of oak, 
lets recap. Started off with the bentonite and warm water, added grape juice, took sg added ec1118 yeast to the mix., rehydrate in warm water the dried raisin pack, strained out the water put the fpac in the mix, cover tag.now we wait. go back and review the pics.


----------



## joeswine

*Cru /sharaz /viognier*

I would like to take besides that for all you beginning *winemakers to make** some sense as to what and how CRU was striving for with the ingredients in this kit and to what end. I'll break it down the way I see it As Follows;*

*first , let's talk about the blind, the primary package consists of a blend of Shiraz and the VIOGNIER.*
Partners: *your remember way back when I wrote about partners and how wines work together with each other or not, this is a balanced blend I think it's a 65/35 Shiraz / VIOGNIER, there's enough Shiraz to let you know that I'm the leader taste my fruit and of the VIOGNIER is the silent partner adding accent to the finish with a semi-dry bright bite. These two in concert with each other are excellent*_ cru, knew what they set out to accomplish and they did just that.

Second: a concert of Oak, the next step was adding acidity and structure to forms of Oak *immediate toast* in the* heavy* toast, but is it enough ? I think so – or not? Will it overpower the partners? We'll find out! I will add tannins when the primary is finished just to create mouth feel and not to overpower.

Third : a grape pack, interesting intervention they completely dehydrated a grape pack. I rehydrate this pack in warm water and let it set I also tasted it resiny by any standard. Yet still hard to the touch I believe this is what and how they started to form the structure and body.

Fourth:* yeast*, they tried to do nothing fancy here , this one is a workhorse a yeast with good ester qualities a strong performer know matter what the climate is or the capabilities of the winemaker and that is why most wine maker manufacture of kits use* EC 1118*, it's a high yield yeast that can tolerate high alcohol content and has good ester qualities as well as other natural characteristics that's why most manufacturers use it, don't play* EC 1118 *down it has its functions.

Fifth: why did they float the alcohol volume? Look at the instructions as I posted see how they go (from and to) lots of room to bring the alcohol level up to balance out Oak and the partners, don't be afraid to increase the ABV if you have good control of your process. Always know your limitations and if you don't *ask.
*

The sauce: I have always stated to think of for one juice or kit as a *basic sauce* and you're the* Chef, we have rules to follow but we can still bend them at will and be creative and have a blast, just my thoughts. This one with all its complexities is no different than when I started out seven years ago writing about (when good wines bad) it shows how far these manufacturers of kits have come to be creative and to *think outside the box *and to give you a very pleasurable experience in making wine..*_

*go back and review the pics*


----------



## joeswine

*Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]*The box includes the following: *[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· Large bag of juice[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· bentonite[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· Metabisulphite[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· Sorbate[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· 1 Hungarian Oak[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]1 tbsp wine tannins[/FONT]
*The Process:*[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends.


----------



## joeswine

(Continued)I found these grapes at a place called trader Joe's,semi-high end store in cherry hill, I'm sure if you look you can fine some interesting grape types at Kruger's or wegmens ,these are also none as zante's currents which you can find in most stores,


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## LoneStarLori

Oh I can't wait to see how this plays out. I think the yeast substation is going to change everything. Curious, where did you buy the grapes? I've never seen them in a local grocery?


Sent from my iPad Air using Wine Making


----------



## joeswine

*sharaz continued*

2 DAYS LATER THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR. A STEADY FERMENTATION AND A GOOD CAP................WHAT I'VE DONE HERE IS NO DIFFERENT THEN A HIGH END KIT MAKER,PICKED MY BASE, CREATED MY FPAC,USED THE YEAST I WANTED FOR THE CHARASTICS I WANTED THE WINE TO HAVE,USED BOTH OAK CHIPS (SUPPLIED) I WILL ADD SOME WINE TANNINS IN THE SECONDARY AND FILTERED WATER........AT A COST OF 59.99 FOR THE KIT...SO LETS SEE HOW WE FINISH..STAY TOONED............................ALWAYS REMEMBERING BALANCE IS THE KEY I WANT THIS WINE TO FINISH OUT FRUITFUL WITH DECENT BODY A EARLY DRINKING RED WITH A TOUCH OF WOOD.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

shiraz continued...............................
 by using a strainer I'm able without any problems removing the oak and grapes which I added to the base wine notice the nice cap of elements before removal, that's what you want to see, take a reading and then move on.now i'll let this sit for one week and then rérack and get it ready for chems and fining. Good to go.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joe, did you punch down the cap everyday?


----------



## joeswine

*Punching down the cap*

NO ,IT WASN'T NECESSARY THE AMOUNT OF GRAPES WAS _1 LB._ JUST ENOUGH TO MAKE A TASTE DIFFERENCE NOTHING MORE,BUT IT WILL ADD A FRUIT FORWARD TASTE PROFILE TO THE SHARAZ,IT'S STRANGE HOW THAT HAPPENS BUT IT'S THE WAY I CREATE THE SAUCE.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

with black corithian grape fpac..follow the precess at this time were in the secondary and degassing but soon will bottle .follow the process and see how we got here.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz continued*

FOLLOWING THE PROCESS SO FAR??????? 
INTO THE SECONDARY IT WENT TO DEGASS AND BECOME VERY TASTY ,WILL FOLLOW UP IN A WEEK OR TWO......................


----------



## LoneStarLori

lookin good! I will be interested to see how yours differs from mine.


----------



## joeswine

*differences................*

....................will send you a sample tasting when I put together the rest of you treats from this jersey boy.......yours jp


----------



## geek

So this RJS RQ kits bring labels AND shrink caps?
Any corks too?


----------



## Boatboy24

geek said:


> So this RJS RQ kits bring labels AND shrink caps?
> Any corks too?



Nope. No corks.


----------



## geek

Thanks Jim.
I assume the RJS RQ have the same 16L juice quantity like the Winery Series, not 18L like the En Premier.


----------



## Boatboy24

geek said:


> Thanks Jim.
> I assume the RJS RQ have the same 16L juice quantity like the Winery Series, not 18L like the En Premier.



I didn't measure, but they are very much like the EP kit, with the dried grape skins. If I had a dollar, I'd bet they are 18L, plus skins.


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## geek

don't bet.....
Just checked the picture Joe posted in previous page and it looks like 16L (4.23 GAL)


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

THIS POST IS A REVIEW OF THE KIT IN PROCESS WE WILL BE READY TO BOTTLE NEXT THURSDAY RIGHT ON TIME...FOLLOW THE FLOOW.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz continued*

FLOOW CONTINUED..................


----------



## Simpsini

Joe

To bump up the ABV to 1.10 by adding the 1 qt jar of simple syrup in the primary? And is the simple syrup 2 parts sugar & 1 part water? 

Dave


----------



## Simpsini

Joe

What I meant to write was ... Did you bump up the ABV to 1.10 by adding the 1 qt jar of simple syrup in the primary? And is the simple syrup 2 parts sugar & 1 part water?


----------



## joeswine

*boosting the ACHOLO*

the answer is yes actually I added *2 ball jars* notice the sg starting point a little above 1.10,that was not the norm, but because I have lost of oak and tannins I wanted this kit to be fruit forward (SHARAZ) with a dry finish which is representative of the *viognier.*
RULE OF THUMB:1 QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP MOVES ABV/UP= 1 FULL POINT

as of last night my first tasting, dead on with the fruit and dryness a good balance to this 6 week kit.


PLAN YOUR WORK AND WORK YOUR PLAN


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier blend*

REVIEW THE FLOW WILL BOTTLE NEXT WEEK....


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

FOLLOW THE FLOW.................................


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz /viognier*

BOTTLING TIME, FOLLOW THE PROCESS FROM FRONT TO BACK ,THIS IS DEFINITELY ONE WINE YOU SHOULD HAVE IN YOUR BASEMENT IT'S EVERY THING IT IS STATED TO BE AND MORE WITH A LITTLE TWEAK>


----------



## geek

Joe,

where did you get that "Rock Maple Mitre Box" wooden box from?
How do you use it to align your labels to the bottle?


----------



## joeswine

*vino italiano kit $44.00*

OKAY, I had a request to tweak out a inexpensive kit this kit was $44.00 plus shipping so for the fun of it and the challenge I said why not after all it's just a highly concentrated base I should be able to make it a good wine .

The CHANGES I MADE WERE CAPITALIZATION , AMERICAN OAK AND TANNINS AS WELL AS RAISINS ALL AT DIFFERENT STAGES THIS WILL BE DONE IN THE SANGIOVESE MODE AND SHOULD FINISH OUT ON TIME ,IT'S A 4 WEEK KIT. BUT I THINK THAT I'LL NEED THE 5TH WEEK TO ACTUALLY HAVE IT COMPLETED DO TO THE ADDITIONS AND TIME THEY REQUIRE,SO LETS GET STARTED AND SEE HOW WE FARE. 
THE STEPS ARE BASIC,BENTONITE IN THE BEGINNING WITH FILTERED WATER,WINE BASE ,THEN FILTERED WATER AND YEAST PROVIDED ALONG WITH OAK AND RAISINS ALL IN THE PRIMARY COVER AND LET IT HAPPEN,NOTHING WE HAVEN'T DONE BEFORE CAN YOU SEE THAT? FORGET THE PRICE LOOK AT IT IS A BASE CONCENTRATED WINE WAITING FOR YOUR TOUCH.


----------



## tshank

Can anyone tell me the correct amount of instant coffee that Joeswine added to his coffee port kit, and weather it was added to primary or secondary? Have some time today to get it started and have seen many differing amounts to add. Thank you!


----------



## joeswine

*coffee port*

adding instant coffee to the coffee port.

once you have finished the primary and have racked into a clean carboy then next step is usually let it degas and become still, now when you have the base wine ready for the additions add 2 tablespoons of instant coffee, I used ShopRite's decafe,start slow add the fpac stir well make sure your degassed, let it set _*1 *_week then taste add more coffee for your taste profile if you like or not, but by almeans go slow there's no rush once it goes in you can't take it out ,got it! don't forget the addition of *tannins *in the secondary, their important to balance out the finish or the finish can be harsh.


----------



## peaches9324

Joe I like your labels on the shiraz blend


----------



## joeswine

*vino italiano*

an inexpensive kit with a twist. Follow the process and transform this kit into a good wine with a little planning and thought.....................


----------



## joeswine

*vino italiano kit $44.00*

the flow must go on!..........


----------



## Putterrr

Getting pretty fancy with your posts Joe. lol

by the way the raisins in my RQ Washington Riesling Chenin Blanc was spot on. Our new fav white. (till the next one of course)

keep up the good work

cheers


----------



## joeswine

*raisins in the mix*

DEPENDING ON WHERE AND HOW YOU USE THEM CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE OUTCOME,ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT THEY DON'T ALWAYS FIT INTO SOME REDS ,THEY WILL NOT HAVE A CONDESCENDING AFFECTS ON WHITES.


----------



## joeswine

*Tuscany kit in fermentation*

FERMENTATION IS IN FULL SWING...........CHECK IT OUT AND REVIEW THE FLOW...........................
remember the tweaks we did????????????????????


----------



## joeswine

*vino italiano kit $44.00*

racking down to protect from oxidation, degassing is the starting point , go back and review the flow.............


----------



## joeswine

*tuscan kit*

well at this point where just letting nature happen but by next week will get ready to bottle..stay tunego back and review the flow..........


----------



## Renee

I am sorry but I am very confused by this information. As a Student and now a Certified Sommelier I have never heard of one instance of a Vintner using raisins. Is this practice an exclusively a home wine making technique? Because when I broached the subject with Commercial Wine Makers they thought I was pulling their leg. I promised I was not, but it was to no avail. Can anyone here explain this seemingly strange practice in accepted Wine Making Practice? When I think of raisins I do not think of a fine Cabernet Sauvignon. Do you ?


----------



## sour_grapes

Renee said:


> I am sorry but I am very confused by this information. As a Student and now a Certified Sommelier *I have never heard of one instance of a Vintner using raisins.* Is this practice an exclusively a home wine making technique? Because when I broached the subject with Commercial Wine Makers they thought I was pulling their leg. I promised I was not, but it was to no avail. Can anyone here explain this seemingly strange practice in accepted Wine Making Practice? When I think of raisins I do not think of a fine Cabernet Sauvignon. Do you ?



Renee, you are a certified sommelier, and have never heard of Amarone?

C'mon, we do what we can, and if it makes the wine taste better, we will do it.


----------



## Runningwolf

Renee this is not a practice a winery would ever do. Home winemakers buying concentrate kits or juice pails from Chile or California try different things to tweak the juice hoping to replicate fresh pressed juice.


----------



## bkisel

Renee, we "hobbyists" will at times "tweak" with such things as raisins, bananas, currants and other stuff in an effort to improve our home made wines. We might try blends that would never cross a "Vintner's" mind to try.


----------



## Renee

I suppose you can trivialize Amarone when you can compare the appassimento process to adding raisins, but last time I checked, Amarone isn’t made from Thompson seedless that are heated up 145–155°F for 18 to 20 hours. But I do see somewhat the point which is your goal as Home Wine Makers is not to replicate fine elegant wines but to add ingredients to an inferior base which would never be used in real wine production to arrive at a product which some might find comfortable to consume. You may be successful at that but I doubt any of it would pass for the real thing.


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## ShawnDTurner

Joe. It sounds like you should send renee a few bottles of your work. It would be interesting to hear what a Som thinks/ impressions of the process and works.


----------



## joeswine

*adding to the mix*

RENEE, good to hear from you and that you took a interest in the fpac process so lets start you over and see if you can follow my way of *thinking out side the box*
first of all the Thompson seedless grapes were simmered done to create a smooth and easy to use package just as WINEXPERTS,and spagnol's wines kits come with a wet fpac, these are the same and if you haven't made wine before or are new to the industry, then this is something else to learn.
AMARONE IS MADE FROM A WINE BASE AND GRAPES THAT HAVE BEEN DRIED ON STRAW Mat's UNTIL READY,THAT'S THE PROCESS,READ ABOUT IT.

NOW back to the Thompson fpac ,what it does is starts to build the structure of the wines base, weather it's a kit or fresh juice even fresh grapes the maceration of the skins and the base are determine by the winemaker for color as well as adding structure and tannins to a certain extent to the base wine, over a determined period of time .we are simulating the fresh grape cap with out the work of the crush which most of us as home wine makers don't have the time or space to do, that is why the kit industry is here, so we try to think out side the box as it were and do what we can.I'm a huge *amarone* fan and have tasted and experienced wine making on my trips to Italy and have seen first hand how it's done and believe you me the grapes looked like raisins to me when they were being applied to the base wine. It's how they do it and the timing that gives amarone it's distinctive taste. ALL OF WHAT YOU SEE ON THIS THREAD IS HOW I PUT MY FINGER PRINT ON THE WINES I MAKE AND SEND TO COMPETITIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
THIS forum is based on taking each others experiences and working out what fits your needs best if any. For century's wine maker have used different fruits and berries as well as nuts and herbs in their wines this is just a extension, I understand that not all wines are applicable to raisins or other fruits just grapes of their own origin.


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## sour_grapes

Renee said:


> I suppose you can trivialize Amarone when you can compare the appassimento process to adding raisins, but last time I checked, Amarone isn’t made from Thompson seedless that are heated up 145–155°F for 18 to 20 hours. But I do see somewhat the point which is your goal as Home Wine Makers is not to replicate fine elegant wines but to add ingredients to an inferior base which would never be used in real wine production to arrive at a product which some might find comfortable to consume. You may be successful at that but I doubt any of it would pass for the real thing.



Get off your horse, please.


----------



## Renee

Thank you Joe for explaining your Philosophy. I was under the impression that Home Wine Makers were engaged in the activity to achieve as a goal making a wine which could stand up to the finest of a commercial counterpart. One does have to start with good grapes in order to achieve that goal. I see now with less than good fruit available to you, you are forced to look for alternatives to make up for the lack of good grapes. Reading other posts here those making what they call wine with odd ingredients may satisfy them but hardly can be considered an elegant or refined wine. There are standards in every endeavor. I just assumed the same existed for Home Wine Makers. Apparently that places me on a horse. I am sorry if you are offended but I am engaged in a career and this helps me understand why I hear so many negative comments from clients when the subject of Home Made wine comes up.


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## Turock

Renee--There are accomplished home winemakers--and then those that are "not so much." And some do this hobby to please themselves and their palletes--and not so much to wine ribbons or medals by going up against professional offerings. It is a hard thing to categorize home winemakers as there are so many different levels of those who are in this hobby.

I've had wine from home winemakers that are so terrible that ditch water would have been better to drink. And then I've had wine from others that could compete with ANY commercial wine--and sometimes, it's even BETTER.

Most people tell us that our wines beat anything they've had commercially. It can boil down to how much effort you put into the hobby. How much study you do. How well you understand each grape, and how much you understand wine science. Some of us are very studious and study nutrients, cultures, YAN, adjustment of TA and PH,and on and on. Just because we didn't go to school to learn winemaking doesn't mean we give the "french wave" to good wine science. But I think that that everyone should do what they want to do because after all---it's just a hobby--it's not an "ego thing." And a forum is to exchange ideas--not to critique everyone and try to use one-upmanship on each other. We're a band-of-brothers here--a family. It's not a competition.


----------



## Turock

And.....another thought here. Because we ARE home winemakers, we can do anything we want!!! We can make flavors that you'd NEVER find in the commercial market. Have you ever heard of wines like Niagara/lime? Or Concord vanilla? How about Concord anise? I assure you that you can't find these wines on any shelf. But are 3 that we make that are BIG hits with our friends. As hobbyists, we are ALWAYS experimenting and making "Frankenstien" wines that our friends just rave about!!!


----------



## sour_grapes

This is a friendly forum, and yet I admit my response was not friendly. I apologize for that. But then again, your posts were not at all friendly, either.

You used rather freighted language to describe both the endeavors you favor ("fine elegant wine") and the ones some of us engage in ("seemingly strange practice," "inferior base," not "real winemaking," would not "pass for the real thing"). What, exactly, was your goal in doing this?

As others have pointed out, we are a disparate lot. Our goals, resources, and commitment differ greatly. And, by the way, this is also true of commercial winemakers. Does the existence of Boone's Farm give lie to your statement that "there are standards in every endeavor"? Of course not. Why, then, do you imply differently for home winemakers?


----------



## seth8530

Berating an entire forum or an entire sector of hobbyist over the techniques used by a group of people or a person is not exactly what I would call a good way to make your introduction to a forum.

I make white wine from juice, and I make red wine from frozen must sent to me from the westcoast and I make meads from varietal honey. It is what I have to work with and it is what I am willing to afford on my budget. Would I enjoy having a press, destemmer, crusher and the whole nine yards... And while I am at it, money for the best grapes the west coast can make.. Of course I would.. But, I do what I can with what I got to work with. I have not used raisins in any of my grape wines because I do not feel they really belong. But I would not bash it until you try it at the least. Might be you could learn something? 

BTW, I have an education too. Not in winemaking, but I have never felt the need to belittle people about them not having knowledge in my field. Usually, I approach with an open hand and I talk with them and try to get them to understand what I do.. But, scoffing at someone or a group of people because they do not understand why a positive coefficient of reactivity in a nuclear reactor is a bad thing and the ways to mitigate it is not really productive to my cause . Just as marginalizing home winemakers because some like to put raisins in their wine. 

Honestly, I am pretty sure raisins and bananas and the such are more of a hold over in winemaking land from those who make fruit wines. Then, being primarily used to making fruit wines they try to apply the same technique to low end grape wines and or kits to try their luck at it. Like I said before, I would not do it to my own wine, but I would never think about bashing on someone for doing it. Honestly, it does not bother me all that much what someone decides to do with their own wine.. . And if it works for them... Then why not right?


----------



## Turock

Look at beermaking today. Is a Redd's Apple Ale REALLY beer because it's not purist enough? Or an Orange Shandy? Maybe these should be BANNED because they ain't REALLY beer because of all those flavors????????????? Who in the h#ll cares???? They're damn good and that's all that counts. People's tastes in food and drink are much more eclectic today than they've ever been. I say "hurrah" to all the different offerings that seem "off the wall."

You should taste some of the wine we make from "inferior offerings" such as Niagara grapes which is one of the most put down grapes there is. Many call them inferior. Yet, I think you can have all the Merlot in the world because I don't favor that grape for lack of flavor. It's ALL subjective. Explain to me how 2 buck chuck won 1st place in a wine competition against $50.00 a bottle wines. Many wines made from so-called grapes of excellence just go right over my head and I have a very good pallete for tasting and nuances. A lot of what you're talking about is the snobbery that I hate about winemaking.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Mr. Renee.. let me first say welcome. I am excited to have you on this forum. You can provide us with your unique insights into styles trends and winemaking in general. I am sure there are a number of us that would love to send you a few bottles for your assessment. I believe this is an excellent opportunity for all parties to learn and grow in our passion for the vine. Again sir welcome!


----------



## Renee

Oh Thank you Shawn for your comments but it is Ms. Renee. There are so many comments made about my bringing up the subject I am surprised actually at the level of vitirol directed towards me. Being accused of Bashing an entire forum probably is the worst of them. I certainly can try to address some of these concerns. As to me saying an inferior base I was thinking if you all were able to obtain the best grapes would you still find the need to use and apply these unconventional processes and additions. You can certainly see why I would think this way as fine elegant wines don't for the most part use these techniques. As for me saying, seemingly strange practice, not real winemaking, or would not pass for the real thing. These are not my words so I have no way of responding but I should not be accused of saying them. And seriously if you want to reduce wines made from the best grapes on Earth as simply snobbery, well if that was conventional wisdom I would be out of a job. I want to thank Joe's wine for a very nice message he sent me. Thank you Joe you are a gentleman. Others not so much.


----------



## bkisel

Renee, In my post I said nothing un-gentlemanly. Can I assume by "Others" you mean _some others_ and not _all others_?

Thanks...


----------



## Renee

Yes you are correct in thinking I was not referring to you. Please understand I never expected this level of attack and I have to admit if you would pardon me I forgot your original post. Thank you.


----------



## roger80465

"As for me saying, seemingly strange practice, not real winemaking, or would not pass for the real thing. These are not my words so I have no way of responding but I should not be accused of saying them." 

Here are the quotes being referenced: Post 790 'But I do see somewhat the point which is your goal as Home Wine Makers is not to replicate fine elegant wines but to add ingredients to an inferior base which would never be used in real wine production to arrive at a product which some might find comfortable to consume. You may be successful at that but I doubt any of it would pass for the real thing.' 

Hope this jogs your memory. You're welcome.


----------



## Renee

roger80465 said:


> "As for me saying, seemingly strange practice, not real winemaking, or would not pass for the real thing. These are not my words so I have no way of responding but I should not be accused of saying them."
> 
> Here are the quotes being referenced: Post 790 'But I do see somewhat the point which is your goal as Home Wine Makers is not to replicate fine elegant wines but to add ingredients to an inferior base which would never be used in real wine production to arrive at a product which some might find comfortable to consume. You may be successful at that but I doubt any of it would pass for the real thing.'
> 
> Hope this jogs your memory. You're welcome.



Yes taken out of context seems to be more important than the real issue. One is what is the goal of Home Wine Makers. Obviously unlike other hobbies many of you are happy with producing less than what would be expected in the commercial arena. This alone is not common for people engaged in a hobby usually the opposite is the case. As far as an inferior base this addresses the need to take extraordinary measures to produce something which most likely is not accepted commercially because you are starting with a foundation which is not really up to par. No fault of your own necessarily. And sadly when the rubber meets the road in the world of marketing and judging there is really reason to expect the product you defend would have no chance of being accepted. I don't make the rules it is just the world I live in. You are welcome as well.


----------



## ibglowin

We return you now to your regularly scheduled WMT programming……….


----------



## peaches9324

renee what is your issue? We're all here to come together and share experience and wisdom, we have real life chemist, biologist, mathematicians and so forth. This is a friendly environment to share knowledge, ask questions, get advice to make the BEST and in all your post you questioned our ability from washing bottles "and if there is still mold in them we throw them out!" to taking something you clearly wrote out of context and btw if you were to post your address I'm sure you would have enough great wine to last you a life time!


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## sour_grapes

Turock, did you, by any wild chance, break into the cellar between posts #795 and #799? ::


----------



## sour_grapes

roger80465 said:


> "As for me saying, seemingly strange practice, not real winemaking, or would not pass for the real thing. These are not my words so I have no way of responding but I should not be accused of saying them."
> 
> Here are the quotes being referenced: Post 790 'But I do see somewhat the point which is your goal as Home Wine Makers is not to replicate fine elegant wines but to add ingredients to an inferior base which would never be used in real wine production to arrive at a product which some might find comfortable to consume. You may be successful at that but I doubt any of it would pass for the real thing.'
> 
> Hope this jogs your memory. You're welcome.



Thanks for covering for me, Roger. All of the words I put in quotation marks were, in fact, direct quotes.

Mike, I love the test pattern!!


----------



## Putterrr

Ms Renee

In any forum dealing with any topic or hobby, your comments would illicit a negative response as you do tar everyone with the same brush. Dont assume everyone is the same and does their hobby for the same reasons and I wont assume you speak for all Sommelier's . 

You are entiltled to your opinion as are we. I encourage you to express that opinion but would only ask that you do it in a separate post/topic so that those of us that read Joe's posts for his unique brand of manipulating kits can do it without the off topic stuff. Thx

cheers


----------



## reefman

Wow, two banning in one week. It must be the upcoming Halloween holidays or a full moon somewhere.

Anyway, to comment on the discussion, isn't it true that commercial wineries are not permitted to make the tweaks that have been discussed here?


----------



## peaches9324

*to moderaters*

out of respect for joe would it be possible to move these comments to a separate thread lets maybe title it banned so that future members can see where this kind of etiquette will lead you?

thank you for your consideration

anyone second this motion?


----------



## Runningwolf

reefman said:


> Wow, two banning in one week. It must be the upcoming Halloween holidays or a full moon somewhere.
> 
> Anyway, to comment on the discussion, isn't it true that commercial wineries are not permitted to make the tweaks that have been discussed here?



Yes that is true. They have to send in their recipe for approval. Any additions like chocolate or anything else is a real pain to submit because you need all the info and origin of that product also.


----------



## peaches9324

reefman said:


> Wow, two banning in one week. It must be the upcoming Halloween holidays or a full moon somewhere.
> 
> Anyway, to comment on the discussion, isn't it true that commercial wineries are not permitted to make the tweaks that have been discussed here?



I missed the first banning was he/she a new member?


----------



## geek

peaches9324 said:


> I missed the first banning was he/she a new member?



I missed both....


----------



## Enologo

peaches9324 said:


> out of respect for joe would it be possible to move these comments to a separate thread lets maybe title it banned so that future members can see where this kind of etiquette will lead you?
> 
> thank you for your consideration
> 
> anyone second this motion?



I would agree, this is a major hyjack of Joe's thread. It would also be helpful to clarify why the person was banned to give folks a better understanding of what is and is not acceptable although in the last two cases it was painfully obvious.


----------



## roger80465

Renee said:


> Yes taken out of context seems to be more important than the real issue. One is what is the goal of Home Wine Makers. Obviously unlike other hobbies many of you are happy with producing less than what would be expected in the commercial arena. This alone is not common for people engaged in a hobby usually the opposite is the case. As far as an inferior base this addresses the need to take extraordinary measures to produce something which most likely is not accepted commercially because you are starting with a foundation which is not really up to par. No fault of your own necessarily. And sadly when the rubber meets the road in the world of marketing and judging there is really reason to expect the product you defend would have no chance of being accepted. I don't make the rules it is just the world I live in. You are welcome as well.



Hard to take 'out of context' when it is a direct quote. Anyone can look at the post and see it is quite contextual. You may be making a valid point but overshadowed by your pomposity.


----------



## roger80465

sour_grapes said:


> Thanks for covering for me, Roger. All of the words I put in quotation marks were, in fact, direct quotes.
> 
> Mike, I love the test pattern!!



Glad to do it. This forum is not about wine snobbery and such attitudes drive me batspit crazy. "Elegant" wine is determined by palate, not education. I rather like some 2 buck Chuck but some pricey wines leave me wanting 2 buck Chuck. Variety is the spice of life.


----------



## codeman

Rofl reading the last several posts.

http://stjaxn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Get-off-your-high-horse.jpg


----------



## joeswine

*Thinking outside the box*

wow! Did that get out of control or what? And wasn't he here before and did the same thing a few years ago?wow!


----------



## joeswine

*When good wines gone bad*

WHEN I STARTED THIS THREAD AND IT'S SISTER THREAD IT WAS TO SHOW THAT YOU CAN DO DIFFERENT THINGS WITH A WINES TASTE PROFILE AND HAVE FUN DOING IT ALSO THAT IF YOU MADE A MISTAKE NEVER TO GIVE UP YOU CAN ,MOST TIMES MAKE CHANGES TO IT AND OR TAKE SOME KIND OF CORRECTIVE ACTION.THE FIRST PERSON I REMEMBERED SPEAKING TO ON THE OLD FORUM WAS TONYT.,AND WE DISCUSSED WHAT CAN BE DONE AND WHAT SHOULDN'T BE TRIED.TO THAT END WE AS HOME WINEMAKERS DON'T HAVE A LIMIT ON WHAT WE CAN DO .DO TO THE SMALL BATCHES WE DO.6,5 AND 3 GALLON BATCHES AND CORRECTED IN SHORT ORDER FOR THE MOST PART, ARE SANATATION IS JUST AS CONTROLLED,WE ARE NO DIFFERENT THEN A WINERY ONLY MUCH,MUCH SMALLER ,WE ARE THE SAME, WE HAVE STANDARDS JUST LIKE THEY DO .IF IT WASN'T' T FOR THE FACT THAT I'M NOT A LEGAL WINERY I WOULD LOVE TO GO HEAD TO HEAD WITH THE ONES IN NEW JERSEY JUST TO SEE WHAT THEY REALLY GOT ,IN A BLIND TASTE TEST.
 WE ARE WHAT WE ARE A GROUP OF PEOPLE JOINED BY ONE COMMON THREAD THE DESIRE TO MAKE AND SHARE OUR WINES AND IDEAS, NO MATTER HOW FAR FETCHED IT COMES OUT, ITS STILL SOME THING YOU CREATED ,IT TOOK THOUGHT AND PLANNING NO MATTER WHAT THE OUTCOME.
 LETS CHANGE THE TOPIC


----------



## sour_grapes

Getting back on topic…. I had an epiphany!!!

I practically got into this hobby for the sole hope of making something resembling Amarone for < $7/bottle. I made a CC Showcase Amarone as one of my first kits. I have now made a range of other kits, mainly big reds. My wife and I were mulling over what the next kit should be, and she suggested it was time for another Amarone, now that I have some more experience. I am biased towards using ultrapremium kits, but have always wanted to try a Joe's Wine Tweakfest Amarone.

I just had an epiphany: I will make BOTH a CC Showcase Amarone and a Joeswine tweakfest in succession. That way, they will have essentially the same age, and I can compare them through time. Plus, I get 60 more bottles of Amarone. Score! 


Joe, do you mind if I call you "Beppe"? I hope that is not too forward of me. If that is okay, I think I will call this Amarone di Beppe.

(In fact, maybe Joe should change his name from "Joeswine" to "Vino di Beppe"?)


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

THIS WAS A SUPER KIT TO WORK WITH AND THE OUTCOME WAS EXCELLENT..FOLLOW THE FLOW


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz/vioginer*

FLOW CONTINUED.....................


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz/vioginer*

AT THE FINISH LINE..........LET IT SET UP FOR A COUPLE OF MONS. THE SEE WHAT THE WORK WAS ALL ABOUT.


----------



## roger80465

sour_grapes said:


> Getting back on topic…. I had an epiphany!!!
> 
> I practically got into this hobby for the sole hope of making something resembling Amarone for < $7/bottle. I made a CC Showcase Amarone as one of my first kits. I have now made a range of other kits, mainly big reds. My wife and I were mulling over what the next kit should be, and she suggested it was time for another Amarone, now that I have some more experience. I am biased towards using ultrapremium kits, but have always wanted to try a Joe's Wine Tweakfest Amarone.
> 
> I just had an epiphany: I will make BOTH a CC Showcase Amarone and a Joeswine tweakfest in succession. That way, they will have essentially the same age, and I can compare them through time. Plus, I get 60 more bottles of Amarone. Score!
> 
> 
> Joe, do you mind if I call you "Beppe"? I hope that is not too forward of me. If that is okay, I think I will call this Amarone di Beppe.
> 
> (In fact, maybe Joe should change his name from "Joeswine" to "Vino di Beppe"?)



OK, Paul - I like your thought process here. A big thumbs up for the Showcase Amarone - it is the bomb! 

Now, I made a Vinifera Noble Amarone (~$70), alla Joeswines. Started it Nov, 2013 and bottled 2/14. Added all the oak that came with it to primary and added a pound of raisins and used BM4X4 yeast. Racked to carboy at about SG1.00 and added 4Tbsp tannin. Followed directions from there. It is OUTSTANDING! Should have let it clear more and now I run each bottle through a Mellita coffee filter but it is still incredible! I will make it again soon. If you want an 'every day' Amarone, this could be it. I have made this one several times, Renaissance Amarone (now 3 years olf) and Renaissance Impressions Amarone (now 2 years old) each once. The end result is the tweaked VN Amarone is FAR better. I highly recommend trying it!


----------



## marino

I just got through with the clarifying on my Renaissance impressions with skins. I wonder if there's anything I could do at this point. 

I have a couple newish American oak barrels--would the amarone benefit from sitting in a 10L barrel now, or should I wait til it goes neutral?


----------



## geek

roger80465 said:


> OK, Paul - I like your thought process here. A big thumbs up for the Showcase Amarone - it is the bomb!
> 
> Now, I made a Vinifera Noble Amarone (~$70), alla Joeswines. Started it Nov, 2013 and bottled 2/14. Added all the oak that came with it to primary and added a pound of raisins and used BM4X4 yeast. Racked to carboy at about SG1.00 and added 4Tbsp tannin. Followed directions from there. It is OUTSTANDING! Should have let it clear more and now I run each bottle through a Mellita coffee filter but it is still incredible! I will make it again soon. If you want an 'every day' Amarone, this could be it. I have made this one several times, Renaissance Amarone (now 3 years olf) and Renaissance Impressions Amarone (now 2 years old) each once. The end result is the tweaked VN Amarone is FAR better. I highly recommend trying it!



I was thinking about that lower end kit, I think it is only 10L.

Did you add the raisins at primary?


----------



## bkisel

geek said:


> I was thinking about that lower end kit, I think it is only 10L.
> 
> Did you add the raisins at primary?



Varis, I did a low end ($75.00) RJS Italian Valpola with advice/help from Joe. Re-used a saved RJS WS grape skin pack in primary, used 1 pound of raisins in "secondary" and back sweetened with 1 cup of sugar. 2 months bulk and 2 months bottle aging and it came out great.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Putterrr said:


> Ms Renee
> 
> 
> PS. you dont grow pumpkins do you?




Ok, this made me laugh out loud. 


Carry on Mr. Joe. This is YOUR thread. Keep doing the thing you do. Great tutorials. 


Sent from my iPad Air because I spilled wine on my MacBook. Waaaah!


----------



## geek

bkisel said:


> Varis, I did a low end ($75.00) RJS Italian Valpola with advice/help from Joe. Re-used a saved RJS WS grape skin pack in primary, used 1 pound of raisins in "secondary" and back sweetened with 1 cup of sugar. 2 months bulk and 2 months bottle aging and it came out great.



Thanks Bill. Is that also a 10L?


----------



## bkisel

geek said:


> Thanks Bill. Is that also a 10L?



No, RJS VdV kits are 9L.

With my level of knowledge and confidence I'll only tweak, if I tweak at all, lower end kits and leave the higher end kits as is.


----------



## roger80465

geek said:


> I was thinking about that lower end kit, I think it is only 10L.
> 
> Did you add the raisins at primary?



Yes, I added to the primary for this one. I've had mixed success adding raisins later so I prefer adding them early. This Amarone is well worth the time. 

I believe the instructions say to hold the oak until secondary but, when I have done that, I find the oak overwhelming.


----------



## roger80465

sour_grapes said:


> Getting back on topic…. I had an epiphany!!!
> 
> I practically got into this hobby for the sole hope of making something resembling Amarone for < $7/bottle. I made a CC Showcase Amarone as one of my first kits. I have now made a range of other kits, mainly big reds. My wife and I were mulling over what the next kit should be, and she suggested it was time for another Amarone, now that I have some more experience. I am biased towards using ultrapremium kits, but have always wanted to try a Joe's Wine Tweakfest Amarone.
> 
> I just had an epiphany: I will make BOTH a CC Showcase Amarone and a Joeswine tweakfest in succession. That way, they will have essentially the same age, and I can compare them through time. Plus, I get 60 more bottles of Amarone. Score!
> 
> 
> Joe, do you mind if I call you "Beppe"? I hope that is not too forward of me. If that is okay, I think I will call this Amarone di Beppe.
> 
> (In fact, maybe Joe should change his name from "Joeswine" to "Vino di Beppe"?)



Oh, and another thing . I have the Showcase Amarone bulk aging now. But after I racked from primary, I added all the fixin's from a GCI Barolo/Nebbiolo to the gross lees of the Amarone along with the grape/oak pack from the amarone, the dried grapes and oak from the barolo, 1 Tbsp tannin, 2tsp fermax and BM4X4 yeast. That puppy was fermenting well in about 90 minutes. 

It is in bulk now but I have sampled a couple times and it is really good already and only 2 months from pitching yeast. This is going to be a real winner. Kind of a 'Barolo Ripassa'. 

This is really fun! Thanks Joe for the inspiration.


----------



## Pumpkinman

I want to start by saying that I've chosen to avoid posting due to differences of opinions with a few of the admin, I also chose to remain silent to avoid any negative debates here, lord knows that the last time I wanted to try to correct a lot of incorrect info posted on this forum, I was demoted and told that I let the ""power of being a mod on this forum" go to my head...lol...these are exact words that I still have the emails to prove, any way, I left, I got the hint, and I'v remained silent ever sense, even though I periodically read the forum.
This said, I'm reading a post, Good wines go bad, and I see that Putteerr or however he/she spells their name, make the comment "PS. you dont grow pumpkins do you?"
If you have an issues with me, address me like a man, email me and get it over with, your petty attempt at humor apparently got a few chuckles out of lone star lori, that in itself made me chuckle, I'm glad that the most inexperienced wine makers look up to you, you should be proud, but again, feel free to contact me, I'll be glad to talk this through, but to settle your infantile jab, no it isn't me posting, your glorious admin can check my IP address, and by the way, Lori, stick to kits, trying to pretend that you're a wine maker is wasted, Putteerrr, when your ready to start making real wine, look me up, i'll be glad to give you a few tips.
I'm sure that I'll get banned for this post instead of an admin looking at this as a reply to an attack.
Again, If you are half a man, (that goes for putteerr and Lone Star Lori) contact me, don't be petty.
And as far as my take on Renee, you had the chance to see things from the other side of the wine industry, instead, you let you let your insecurity as kit wine makers mask your better judgement. I mean really, you let a brand new wine maker like paul dictate how the conversation went, how embarrassing is that folk.
Tom


----------



## Putterrr

Pumpkinman

You are right it was a poor attempt at humour but that was not my intent. It was a reminder to those that have been on this site for awhile that things can and do get our of hand very quickly. And they did. I was totally out of line and will remove the offending post. I apologize and take full responsibility.

Ron


----------



## LoneStarLori

Putterrrs' comment was amusing to me in that I took it to mean many of the comments made by Ms Renee were quite condescending. 
Maybe you don't see yourself as that way, but you DO have a history of such comments. Here is a great example: "by the way, Lori, stick to kits, trying to pretend that you're a wine maker is wasted,". 

Have you seriously been hunkering under that bridge for months just waiting for the word PUMPKIN to come up so you could go on the attack once again? No one referred to you directly, which is more than you have done. 

I used to respect you and had asked your advice on several occasions. Your comment about my wine making is way out of line. 


Sent from my iPad because I spilled wine on my MacBook. Waaaah!


----------



## ibglowin

Nobody gets banned on this forum because they "know too much". They do however get banned all the time for being rude, crude, and socially unacceptable to the other 99% of users here on Wine Making Talk. If you start a "flame war", become a user that takes up an inordinate amount of time and energy to look after by the Admins or Mods trying to keep this wine making forum the "Happiest Wine Making Fourm on Earth", or you just can't seem to play well with the other children in the sandbox. You will be shown the exit door. Its just that simple.


----------



## sour_grapes

Pumpkinman said:


> I mean really, you let a brand new wine maker like paul dictate how the conversation went, how embarrassing is that folk.



I am, indeed, a new and inexperienced maker of wine. However, I have been a human being for quite a while now. My tyro status as a winemaker is not relevant to my response to the pomposity and obduracy of the poster. 

That you should feel that my engaging her was "embarrassing" on those grounds is, frankly, out of line. Knowledge does not grant anyone the right to behave uncivilly.

I sincerely hope you are doing well in your endeavors.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Mike, you guys check ip addresses on a regular bases, you already know that I haven't been posting. I know how this forum is run, I had access to the mod area, so please, let's be honest with ourselves. 
Lori, hunkering down under a bridge....lol....get over yourself, I've been part of another wine making blog, and beermakingtalk, not to mention running a wine club, being a member of a beer club, putting together group buys (ask around, we even had a member of wmt join us for a day), all this while making wine, real wine, wine from fresh grapes sourced from some of the best vineyards in California and Washington State.
Hunkering down under a bridge...lol....yeah, that's what I've been doing....lol Unfortunately, I still have a few friends that frequent this website so I check their posts to see what is going on, unfortunately, I came upon a reference to me and your case of chuckles at my expense, as far as having your respect, don't waste your time, I don't need it.
I'll bite my tongue and keep my personal opinions to myself.
as for everyone else that tried to contact me, I hope that all is well.


----------



## geek

Wow, this thread has become the "Star wars" lately...lol (j/k).

Guys, please come to your senses, this is a community to help each other, some more experienced than others but at the end it is about enjoying the art of wine making.

Personally, I miss Tom, he was a great asset to this forum and good fellow.
Also, I receive so much help from others that it would be a joke to even think about anything negative when coming to this forum.

So, calm down people and let's just relax and wait for the results tomorrow from the wine competition....

Let's get back on track and keep this thread on its original 'legs'...


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

I'VE BEEN ASKED BY SEVERAL PEOPLE TO REPLAY THE COFFEE PORT *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice *ALL OF THE TWEAKS SHOULD GO INTO THE SECONDARY*
·2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
Y · 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir. 
 *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
 *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir. 

READ SO HERE IT GOES..


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port continued*

this is a fun kit to do and rewarding ,take your time there is no rush...follow 
REMEMBER THE INSTANT COFFEE IS FOR YOUR TASTE BUDS 2 IS GOOD FOR ME .


----------



## Thig

Joe I do not have any oak tannin but I do have 1 pound of medium toast oak chips. I was planning to split the pound in half and add half to the coffee port and half to the caramel port when I rack to the secondary and let it sit for about 30 days then rack off the oak chips. Both ports have been in the primary for about 4 days now. I will also be adding the instant coffee to the coffee port as you suggested.

Any thoughts on this oak plan?


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

unless you like a heavy wood go liter on the caramel (can't get oak tannins?).the other aspect with the caramel is *I used and caramel extract (olive nation) they handle spices,8oz. bottle this will add flavor and not add sweetness just flavor .*  The flavor profile you should expect if you allow the ports to set and I recommend you at least keep half the in check,do not bulk age that won't happen.the coffee port should pick up a *chocolate *background and the *caramel* will pick up a delicious _butterscotch flavor ,out standing!...if you allow them to sit and_ age..
 you need the tannins to work their magic in the secondary even if you add it later 1 month before bottling. OKAY?


----------



## joeswine

caramel port process isn't any different from the coffee port except when you get to the secondary that's were the art comes in..................*important look at the ph readings for this kit it's spot on, try to get there.*
* also when your are ready to start fermentation if you volume is correct(liquid levels) you should be short do not fill..leave it as is and go ahead and ferment you'll take that space up with the fpac.*


----------



## joeswine

*Caramel port continued*

did you notice the caramel extract?????that is part of the flavor package it will add the extra flavor( add in secondary) with out the sweetness the fpac will do that job.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Nice job Joe! First and second place. Can I ask when that judging was? I assume from the port ages, it was this year.


----------



## joeswine

*port kits*

know at this point in time these ports are two years old and getting better ,my next is a black berry port with fresh fruit as a fpac . keeping it very rich in body and flavor.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Can I put in my order now for a bottle? That sounds luscious?


----------



## geek

LoneStarLori said:


> Can I put in my order now for a bottle? That sounds luscious?



ditto....

I recently started a WE Chocolate Raspberry but never tried a port before, so we'll see....


----------



## joeswine

*port kits*

we'll being the both of you did excellent in the big red contest I'll send you both a tasting when I can, okay?


----------



## Thig

joeswine said:


> (can't get oak tannins?)[/COLOR]



Joe I didn't mean I couldn't get the oak tannin, just meant I don't have any now but I do have the toasted oak chips.

Thanks, I may go little lighter on the oak chips then and see how it taste. I can always add more chips later and age another 30 days.


----------



## joeswine

*Caramel port*

were going to load up the caramel port kit again when done correctly this kit translates in time to butterscotch and it is wonderful..follow the flow and watch for the tweaks................


----------



## joeswine

*caramel port continued*

the tannins are important to the body and structure of the wine checking the ph so that it doesn't get out of hand as to not detract from the final products taste.follow the second half................ also I boosted up the sg ...did you see it?


----------



## Thig

Did I miss where you said how much Caramel extract to add? Also is this something you can usually buy at a grocery store?


----------



## joeswine

*caramel port kit*

the bottle was 8ozs. used in full, the reason I used this brand it had all the flavor without adding any sweetness to the port it is already sweet ,in turn the extract adds to the alcohol content and that's going to be important to the finish if you don't add brandy or the like ,I didn't and I'm glad I didn't wait till you taste the finish if you let it sit luxurious..


----------



## joeswine

*Island mist kits*

okay here we go this kit is for the contest, follow the process and the tweaks......stage 1 we capitalized the wine, I also added my pomegranate fpac.


----------



## joeswine

*island mist or tweaked kits*

pomegranate continued.....................


----------



## joeswine

*island mist or tweaked kits*

fpac continues...................


----------



## LoneStarLori

That pomegranate fpac looks great. My kit is in the clearing stages. I used frozen berry mix in my kit. I used a different kit, OB. Strawberry sensation. Wish I would have thought to add the sweet red wine. Great idea!


----------



## joeswine

*island mist or tweaked kits*

at this point the kit and fpac are in harmony with each other it was a good venture and will turn out great for the contest.


----------



## joeswine

*pomegranate fpac*

remember this kit is for the contest so I'm working at the same rate as the wine dictates.
notes: it will take a little time to rack do to the pomegranate seed clogging up the auto siphon, so may be it would have been a wiser to place them in a cheesecloth bag or some other kind of separator use your own ingenuity. This wasn't a real problem for me but it is something for you to consider. Also if you get some sludge in to the racking don't worry about it ,right after degassing we will do our *first addition of superkleer* -before we continue. *Got that* we are going to clear twice ,I'll explain why later the pomegranate seed meat has dissolved give up all it can to the wine what a _aroma..._

 so far so good.........................were on time .....Dave........


----------



## TomK-B

Joe, wanted to give you a report on a wine I've made using one of your techniques. I started with the 12 liter RJ Spagnold's Australian Cabernet Sauvignon kit that comes with a small dried grape skin pack. First I substituted BM45 for the yeast. And I added my tannin powder in primary fermentation. Starting SG was 1.098. It also came with two "tea bag" type of oak that goes in the primary fermentation. I left it in primary for 7 days, then transferred to carboy with one pound of black currants. I let it sit in the black currants for 21 days and it finished fermenting to dry (SG: 0.996). Stablized and cleared. Today I racked off the fine lees and had a taste. *OMG!!!!* I'm shocked at how good this turned out!

Thanks so much for that suggestion!


----------



## barbiek

joe in your simple syrup. What recipe do you use? 1 to 1? Or is it 2 parts sugar to 1 part water?
thanks


----------



## Putterrr

I will jump in here. He uses 2 sugar to 1 water. If i find the post, i will add the link for ya

cheers



barbiek said:


> joe in your simple syrup. What recipe do you use? 1 to 1? Or is it 2 parts sugar to 1 part water?
> thanks


----------



## geek

Joe,

My wife loves pomegranate, so thinking about taking the plunge on this kit and make it for her.

Did you add your custom fpack with pomegranates at the same time you added the fpack that came with the kit when the wine was dry?
Or you added it right in primary and then used the fpack that came with the kit to back sweeten after it was dry?

It seems the cheapest for me shipped is about $68.29.


----------



## joeswine

*zinfandel pomegranate wine*

I MADE MY OWN FPAC AND INSTALLED IT IN THE PRIMARY,REMEMBER TO BRING THE SG UP ALSO,YOU NEED TO GO BACK AND SEE WHAT I STARTED WITH,THEN ADD THE POMEGRANATES TO THE PRIMARY-WITH THE FPAC THAT WAS SUPPLIED I'M FIRST GOING TO SEE IF I EVEN NEED IT OR NOT,BUT THAT'S A WEEK DOWN THE ROAD,YES TAKE THE PLUNGE AND ENJOY THE RIDE ...............YOU CAN'T LOOSE ON THIS ONE GEEK,BY THE WAY YOUR ENTRÉE WAS VERY GOOD I'M PROUD OF YOU ,_GRASSHOPPER._


----------



## geek

LOL, thanks Joe....

I understand, I should boost up the SG by adding simple syrup to bring.
In your case, you're using a home-made fpack with pomegranate right in primary and then will decide whether to use the supplied fpack or not....got it.
In my case I'd add it since she wants a semi sweet pomegranate. 

Lastly, I assume it came with fining agent, right? Where you got the kit from?


----------



## joeswine

*zin/pom kit*

I got my kit from a local wine /brew store you can get them anywhere on line or may be one of sponsors on this forum......it all depends on how the wine taste, and I won't know that until almost at the finish line then I can decide to either use some or all of the mfg. fpac.and by the way if you do this kit straight up it's sweet..................... by using the home made fpac ,I have more pomegranate flavor then the mfgs. fpac will have .I have made this kit at least 8 times ,my wife and her lady friends love it in the summertime.


----------



## joeswine

*Island mist zin/pomegranate kit*

where going to move the process forward ...


----------



## joeswine

*Island mist kit continued*

the flow continues................


----------



## joeswine

*zinfandel pomegranate wine*

let the fpac begin.......................well that brings you up to date Thursday I will see how were doing and do the first racking after secondary ........were on our way. How about you


----------



## barbiek

Putterrr said:


> I will jump in here. He uses 2 sugar to 1 water. If i find the post, i will add the link for ya
> 
> cheers



thank you putter was sure I read that somewhere but just wanted to make sure as joe has a long and well deserved thread! I had googled it but gave 3 different recipes and good luck with finding the post! going to copy and paste and put it in my notes when you find it. Just trying to use this site which I thought I had down from lurking but well you know


----------



## joeswine

*simple syrup*

simple syrup is a two to one mix as follows....


----------



## LoneTreeFarms

completely off topic but if you had a 2 to 1 ratio how'd you end up with 4 jars?


----------



## sour_grapes

LoneTreeFarms said:


> completely off topic but if you had a 2 to 1 ratio how'd you end up with 4 jars?



I'm not Joe, and I don't know if this is the answer in his case, but (a) you know that volume is not conserved during dissolution (or a chemical reaction, for that matter), right? And (b) a "volume" of sugar is not 100% sugar; there are plenty of spaces (or air pockets, if you will) between the sugar granules.


----------



## joeswine

*simple syrup*

okay good question,2 to 1 mix as a base, but I chose to double that and make 4 quarts at a time so= 4 quarts of sugar/ two quarts of water.
you or someone else may not use as much as I do and knowing that each quart raises the sg 1 point I usually us two at a time so if I'm going to make ,I make .got it????/


----------



## joeswine

*zinfandel pomegranate wine*

okay lets try this again, were ready for the final racking and then will decide just how much of the fpac we'll use. Follow....................


----------



## joeswine

*zinfandel pomegranate wine*

continues..............this is as step by step as I can get..for the fpac make up go to the thread making a fpac.


----------



## geek

Joe,

Waiting to see if you'll use the manufacturer fpack to back sweeten.
I assume you WILL back sweeten as this wine should not be dry, if so what SG level is your goal to back sweeten to?


----------



## joeswine

*zin/pome kit it review*

This will be the last post before we move to the fpac or not..follow the process.....it's easy and clean


----------



## joeswine

*zinfandel pomegranate wine*

THE floow continues then goes into the making of the fpac..follow...................


----------



## joeswine

*pomegranate fpac*

this was easy and very tasty at the same time .Don't be afraid to experiment with your wine ,putting your personnel touch on your wine makes it unique.
 WHERE GOING TO LET THIS SET UP AND IN JANUARY WILL REVIEW AND ADD JUST SOME OF THE FPAC ,BUT NOT MUCH THE POMEGRANATE FPAC I MADE ENRICHED THE FLAVOR AS WELL AS THE BODY ,LETS SEE WHAT A LITTLE TIME HAS TO OFFER......SEE THIS ONE FINISHED IN JANUARY READY FOR SHIPMENT..


----------



## joeswine

*Coconut frescati*

 Cornocopia Cocoanut Frascata Kit​ This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit contained the Frascata concentrate, Cocoanut F-pak, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)
* What we added: 
* ball jar of simple syrup
Spring Water
* The steps:
* First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of frascata juice and then topped up to 5.5 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. (This kit makes 6 gal. but it seemed a bit weak, I didn't want it to be too thin in the end.)
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.070. We wanted our SG reading to be a little higher, so we added the ball jar of simple syrup and this brought it up one point. Our SG now is 1.08
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir and added the yeast.
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and draped a towel over the top. Now we wait. 
Update: 
Week 2: We racked to the glass carboy and just let it sit. 
week 3: Tonight we added the packets or sorbate, k-met, and fining agent, and the cocoanut F-pak. I must say, the F pak is DELICIOUS! I would love to get my hand on another fpak like that to experient with. We wrapped the towel around the carboy and put it to sleep. 
Stay tuned for week 4! We plan on racking if all goes well. More to come.
Cheers!
Joeswine and Neviawen


----------



## joeswine

*vino italiano kit $44.00*

this was a fun wine kit at a very easy price follow the process .kit cost $45.00


----------



## joeswine

*Tuscany kit in fermentation*

follow the process...any questions?????

*see the first sg reading that's a white wine wrong picture but right starting sg...................at 1.10*


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king*

amarone to me is the king of italian reds follow the process i use and see what you think.
 *PHASE ONE..THE CONTENTS*


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone phase two*

amarone phase two the partners in the mix.


----------



## LittleBearGameFarm

Looking good Joe, just got this kit and plan on starting in the next month or so. I'll be keeping an eye on your tweaks, always interesting and appreciated!


----------



## geek

I started my first Amarone but from a Mosti Mondiali high quality juice bucket but forgot to add any raisins at all and it seems like Amarone has a raisins flavor.

This juice is finalizing MLF.


----------



## Boatboy24

geek said:


> I started my first Amarone but from a Mosti Mondiali high quality juice bucket but forgot to add any raisins at all and it seems like Amarone has a raisins flavor.
> 
> This juice is finalizing MLF.



Wondering if you could make an f-pac out of raisins. Or put some raisins in a mesh bag into a pot of water. Boil the water, let it cool, then add yeast and ferment dry. Add some of the raisin wine to your Amarone.


----------



## olusteebus

As always Joe, thanks


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king*

_GEEK_,ADD THEM TO THE SECONDARY FOR TWO WEEKS THEN TAKE THEM OUT.


_BOATBOY_,IF DONE THAT WAY THE RAISINS WOULD OVER POWER THE AMARONE ITSELF NOT A HAPPY ENDING ,I'VE BEEN THERE.

 _OLUSTEEBUS,_DO YOU FOLLOW MY THREADS???


----------



## geek

Joe,

this juice bucket went through "secondary" and even it is almost finished with MLF. During alcoholic fermentation I used a few pounds of Sangiovese grapes in a nylon bag.

Would it be safe to even think about adding raisins now?

thanks.


----------



## cmason1957

Joe, 

You have probably answered this and I have just forgotten. Why add a simple syrup instead of just sugar?


----------



## Enologo

I'll be start this kit in a week or two. Glad to see your revamping this.


----------



## joeswine

*cmason1957*

THE REASON I PREFER SIMPLE SYRUP TO JUST ADDING GRANULATED SUGAR ,SIMPLE SYRUP IS ALREADY IN DULITION FORMAT AND BLENDS BETTER WINE THE BASE WINE.

 GEEK,YES BUT FOR 1 WEEK ONLY..


----------



## Simpsini

Joe

How much tannis do you add to the Amarone? BTW, Thanks for taking the time to do this. I've learned a lot from what you have posted. I've started bumping up the SG on some reds I am making (Brunello & Cab) using your simple syrup method. I want to try this Amarone in January.


----------



## joeswine

*Simpsini*

ADD TWO TABLESPOONS TO THE MIS IN THE SECONDARY THAT'S WERE I FEEL IT DOES THE MOST GOOD ,LOOK FOR A PH OF AROUND 3.5/4.0 THE ACIDITY WILL TAIL OFF A BIT,NOT TO FEAR..AND THANKS FOR FOLLOWING MY THREADS..YOURS JP


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone in the flow*

THE PROCESS CONTINUES.... ADDING THE RAISINS TO THE PRIMARY IS IN DESIGN TO BECOME MORE OF A PARTNERSHIP IN THE WINES BALANCE IF YOU ADD THE RAISINS IN THE SECONDARY THE IT BECOMES A BACKGROUND ELEMENT TO THE MIX AND TO SOME A PREFERENCE THE CHOICE IS YOURS ,DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE???


----------



## geek

Joe,

it looks like you bottle quickly after secondary, you don't bulk age at all?


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

HERE'S my theory, if the wine is still then the only thing that aging in the carboy with do is sit there, but if I bottle it, then when I chose to I can sneak a bottle to see what has transpired in it's growth if anything with out disrupting the rest ,GOT IT!


----------



## Gr8p

Love the pics and step by step how to Very helpful

Question : why not put raisins in nylon bag instead during primary? Wouldn't it make transfer easier?

I do mostly fresh fruit wines from recipes. Do u plan to do any of those in near future?


----------



## joeswine

*In the bag*

THE reason I allow them to float in the primary is to give them enough room to do their thing unrestricted and beside there is plenty of space for the yeast and oxygen to do their thing also, with the hand strainer the recovery isn't all that much work ,and isn't the essence of wine making is crafting by hand your wine as much as possible??
 these are some of the fruit fpacs I use in my wines all the time if and when I make a all fruit wine the best results for me have been from walkers fruit farm and their juices always spot on and user friendly. no stress on the outcome.


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

process moving forward......


----------



## joeswine

*muscato queen of Italian whites*

muscato is a very pleasant tasting white wine lush,fruity,and delightfully sweet with juicy peach and tropical fruit flavors and light in body,just a fun wine nothing to get to complex about. FOLLOW the process and enjoy the fruits of your labor.................................
White Moscato​ Here’s the process*:
* Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*muscato queen of Italian whites*

THE FLOW CONTINUES...................


----------



## geek

nice work Joe. I did a Moscato from RJS, picked the RJS because it is a 12L kit vs. the Winexpert which is 10L.


It turned out great.

Will remember adding white raisins the next time I make it.


----------



## Simpsini

Joe

Would you recommend adding whiite raisins to a Sauvignon Blanc? I'm about to start a Vintners Reserve Sauvignon Blanc Wine Kit.

Dave


----------



## joeswine

*reply*

GEEK* muscato* is a well received wine any time ,chilled with cheese and fruit. AND A GOOD CRUSTED BREAD. THIS one was on the sweeter side for a desert wine.

SIMPSINI,NO RAISINS,BUT WHAT I WOULD ADD IS THE ZEST OF A SMALL GRAPEFRUIT ONE MONTH BEFORE FINAL CLEARING THIS WILL MAKE IT POP!


----------



## Simpsini

Joe

Thanks for the grapefruit POP. I would have never thought of that. 

BTW: this week I'm bottling my WE Selection Chilean Cabernet Savignon. I tried it to night and it was very clear and tasted very good. Happy New Year!

Dave


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

THIS ones for vacuum pumpman...her are the basic tweaks for my style of AMARONE, follow the thought pattern.......
*Wineexpert Amarone*​ **UPDATED**​ Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!) 
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212 
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak 
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Wine thief 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

UPDATE:​ We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

just a couple of items more for the sauce......


----------



## geek

Joe,

you don't use the nylon bag supplied to put the grape skins and raisins in it?


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone in the flow*

the reason I don't is to give them all the surface area of the wine to work with at least that makes sense to me??,,


----------



## geek

I've done it that way too, many times, for the same reason.

With Amarone, have you seen a difference if adding the raisins in primary versus secondary, or you always add them in primary for this varietal?

I have one Mosti Mondiali Impressions kit coming soon, it brings both the grape skins pack and raisins.


----------



## joeswine

*adding to the mix*

Geek, think of it this way ,if I add raisins to the primary it then becomes a partnerships with the base wine and one wine. Adding to the whole.
 If I add it to the secondary then it becomes a background enhancement and helps built structure as well .
 CAN you see the difference????


----------



## vacuumpumpman

I had the pleasure to be able to talk to Joe – several weeks back. It was a very pleasurable conversation as he was more than helpful ! I told him my background – I never made a kit before. I was brought up under the influence if you have access to fresh juice or grapes why pay the money for something that costs more – the kits are for those who don’t have the pleasures that we have. Joe started to tell me that the kits were much better than the juice I would get from buckets and all. He talked all about the ph being right on and you don’t have to age it prior to be drinkable. I must say I was very hesitant and did not jump in with both feet – he then mentioned that you can buy a cheaper kit and do some tweaks to it – so it will taste like a real expensive bottle of wine. 
He asked for my address and shipped a bottle of Amarone 2013 to get my opinion on it. It sat for a couple of weeks until we finally opened it over this past weekend. This is exactly what I wrote to him after opening the bottle –
We had the pleasure of drinking your Amarone tonight - let me say it was one of the best wines I ever had !

Perfect bouquet, mouth feel and taste - ph felt perfect.

Yes I know why you do kits now !!

Please tell me which kit this was done from and what tweaks you did to it if any. 

I would of thought that this sat for at least 2 years prior to going into the bottle - until I looked at the date on the bottle 

Very impressed !!

Thanks Steve


I would like to say thanks you again Joe for opening my eyes to something that I would not have done on my own - in several weeks I will be following this thread - word for word


----------



## olusteebus

I am making two kits now under Joes tutelage. Looking forward to the results.


----------



## geek

joeswine said:


> Geek, think of it this way ,if I add raisins to the primary it then becomes a partnerships with the base wine and one wine. Adding to the whole.
> If I add it to the secondary then it becomes a background enhancement and helps built structure as well .
> CAN you see the difference????



I understand, but since I don't know Amarone that much I wanted to know which way for you has proven to be better.
I am just venturing into making Amarone. My MM Impressions kit will be here next week.


----------



## LittleBearGameFarm

Great thread again guys. Question for you...

I just started this WE Amarone kit and will probably rack it to secondary next week some time. My dad gave me a bunch of cranberries to use for a wine some time. I was thinking of dumping the cranberries in with the lees, grapeskins, and raisons and running a second batch through them. I'm thinking I'll add some cranberry juice, apple juice, sugar, additives, etc to get to 5 gallons. Is there anything I should be concerned with on a second running with grapeskins/raisons? Do you think I would get much taste from the lees/skins or any tannin structure? Would this just be a waste of good cranberries?

Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone in the flow*

GEEK place them in the primary that's' an excellent starting point, then tannins to the secondary,capitalize the wine ,go back and follow the process.....patients and process will ,win out.

 LITTLE BEAR GAME Farm, NO CRANBERRIES. Just follow the WINEXPERT PROCESS, and go back on this thread and review the flow...........


----------



## vacuumpumpman

I will be picking up my Wine expert Amarone on Thursday - hopefully I will be able to start it in the next week or so !

I am sure I will be asking questions as I go down this new path -


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone in the flow*

STEVE, good choice read the basic instructions, then have all the material at the ready before you start, I,ll will be right here step buy step if you need me.*REMEMBER*,were going to *capitalize, add tannins, add oak, add raisins,step by step............it will be a wine making adventure.*


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chardenay*

EASY KIT TO MAKE AND AFFORDABLE NOT TO MENTION THE GREAT TASTE OF THIS FUN WINE FOLLOW THE FLOW..................


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chardenay*

LETS CONTINUE THE JOURNEY WITH KATE'S CHARDENAY AND BY THE WAY THIS WINE TOOK FIRST PLACE AT THE GLASSBORO WINE FESTIVAL AT A COST OF ABOUT $1.75 PER BOTTLE...FOLLOW TO THE END.
Cornocopia Chardonnay Kit​This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the chardonnay concentrate, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)
*What we added: 
*1 cup American Oak cubes
2 ball jars of simple syrup
Spring Water
*The steps:
*First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of chardonnay juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. 
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.080. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.10. We wanted this specific SG reading because we do not want fermented fruit juice, we wanted wine. 
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir, added the yeast, and then added our American Oak cubes. 
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait. 
Update!!
We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.99. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy. 
Our wine is coming along!
Stay tuned... 
..........................WE DID A COLD STABILAZATION ON THIS ONE TO MAKE IT SPARKLE THE ADDITION OF THE GRAPEFRUIT ZEST WAS SPOT ON ..


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chardenay*

go back and review Kate's CHARDENAY,easy and quite tasty...


----------



## olusteebus

Was that cornucopia chardonnay the peach Chardonnay.

I have been wanting to try it but I did not know how sweet it would be.


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chardenay*

the kit stated that it was a straight chardenay and after the tweaks was very nice for a $1.62 bottle of wine,really!


----------



## geek

Joe,

I might be venturing into my first Chardonnay, wondering if you ever tried battonage on your Chardonnay?


----------



## olusteebus

joeswine said:


> the kit stated that it was a straight chardenay and after the tweaks was very nice for a $1.62 bottle of wine,really!



No, I meant the cornucopia kit?


----------



## joeswine

*geek*

my personal oppion is I have done it in the past but don't see any benefit to a kit, that's just me. it may have a better affect with fresh juice or grapes. I can't be sure.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo kit*

DIABLO ROJO,is a complex wine and it's my first. Follow the process and see how it moves off the typical path ......................


----------



## joeswine

*DIABLO ROJO KIT continued*

Still on the course follow the flow note the fermentation cap it started the next day and smells just lovely.


----------



## geek

wow.....that kit brings a lot of oak being a cheap kit....


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo kit*

ACTUALLY TO ME IT'S A MID-GRADE KIT AT $86.00 BUT WELL CONSTRUCTED FOR THE TYPE OF WINE IT IS TO PRODUCE,AND IT SMELLS FANTASTIC..NOTHING LIKE THE SMELL OF FERMENTATION IN THE MORNING..


----------



## geek

looking good joe.

It is a 10L kit and with the sale going on now it is cheap at $78.82 shipped; not bad.


----------



## joeswine

*DIABLO ROJO KIT continued*

ACTUALLY I USE TO GET THESE KITS FOR $60.00 THE LAST FEW I DID UNDER THIS FORMAT WERE BUT WHEN I SAW THIS KIT ,THIS STYLE I JUST GRABBED IT.NOT LOOKING AT PRICE , IT WAS NOW OR NEVER THE OBSESSION TOOK CONTROL AND I WENT TO THE DARK SIDE....*IT IS NOW DAY 5 OF PRIMARY FERMENTATION STILL GOING STRONG,SMELLS JUST AMAZING.*


----------



## joeswine

*DIABLO ROJO KIT continued*

we are now out of the primary and the degassing and waiting begin ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo kit*

lets run this one thought from top to bottom so far looks good and smell great, follow the process and watch the tweaks along the way.


----------



## joeswine

*DIABLO ROJO KIT continued*

diablo kit continued follow the process.


----------



## joeswine

*DIABLO ROJO KIT continued*

almost at rest........


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chilean cabernet /merlo*

FOLLOW THE FLOW..
Reserve Du Chateau Kit (approx.. $55.00 off Amazon.com)
Kate’s Chilean Cabernet Merlot​This is an fairly inexpensive kit we purchased off Amazon. We used Amazon Prime and the shipping was free and arrived in 2 days! (Yes!)
Contents of the kit: All the usual suspects
Our tweeks:
Oak cubes in the primary
Homemade blackberry F-pak
1 ball jar simple syrup (brought our SG up to 1.092 from 1.082)
We will be adding powdered oak tannins to the secondary
Please see the pictures below for the process. 
Starting date: January 28, 2015


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chilean cabernet /merlo cont.*

FOLLOW THE FLOW....................


----------



## corinth

Hi Joe,
what toast level was the oak you used. any particular tannis you used and you seemed to stick to the yeast that was provided?
thank you,
Corinth


----------



## ColemanM

Are you ball jars 2 cups sugar one cup water or 4/2?


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chilean cabernet /merlo*

*Corinth* French oak med.toast,any would do.
this is there short program stuck with their yeast choice.

*COLMAN*:2/1 mix sugar to water ,2lbs. Makes 1 ball jar (dry mix)


----------



## ramfan13

*thanks Joe*

Thanks Joe for keeping this thread up. I have learned so much and made my wines better. I have a few questions if you will. First, I am currently doing a lower end Chateau Classico Amarone kit. I started the primary about 4 days ago. I have added oak and raisins to primary. I was wondering if you think I should Chaptalize it now and add in some simple syrup to raise alcohol level like the Winexpert kit. There was none included in the kit. If so, how much should I add and when. Initial gravity was 1.090. I have not taken any readings since then. Also, should I add tannin and oak in secondary when i get there. Thanks for all your help.
One more thing. I have ordered that Chilean Merlot kit and will be doing it soon. Do you think adding blackberry jam to it would work. I have some from when I tried a blackberry jam wine. Also, when did you add the blackberry, in the primary and did you put it in bag. Thanks so much and sorry for all the questions. I am just so excited about trying new things.


John


----------



## joeswine

*Ramfan13*

*GOOD *to hear from you.*YES*,add the simple syrup now ,1 ball jars full will raise the abv.1 point, TANNINS_ in the secondary 1 table spoon will do nicely stir very vigorously._

NO, jam in the base but fresh berries I use about a pint of blackberries you can use frozen if their available, fresh is better ,cook down with a little sweet red wine and let cool a little, place warm right into your fermenter.

TAKE YOUR TIME IT'S ON YOUR SIDE..PLAN YOUR WORK AND WORK YOUR PLAN.GOT IT!


----------



## vernsgal

Hi Joe, This one looks very tempting..I hear an empty carboy calling me


----------



## joeswine

*Inexpensive kits*

SO far I believe we've done 3 or 4 of these kits their affordable and come complete,labels,corks and seals along with the base wine at a 6 gallon capacity. HOW can you go wrong ,okay not the best in the world but a blank palate for you to experiment with, come On be creative and *THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. *

THESE ARE KATE'S KITS,on average 2 dollars a bottle completed.


----------



## ramfan13

*Joe*

I agree. I love the kits to play around with, but I am worried that we may not be able to get any more. In looking at amazon lately, the kits are not available and not sure if they are being restocked. All of them are not available right now. I hope that they come back, but not sure. Interesting thing is that they are available on amazon canada, but cannot get them here in the U.S.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo tasting*

FOLLOWING ,up on the DIABLO wine had a taste this afternoon, the wine still needs to degas I'll start that process today but what was interesting is that the first item my nose tasted was the handful of blackberries I place in the mix the body is _Medium_ so far we've yet to add our _tannins_ but the taste is spot on, this is a kit any red wine drinker should make.

 started 1/18............today is 2/3


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's chilean cabernet /merlo cont.*

PUTTING IT TO REST FOR NOW.


----------



## RegarRenill

ramfan13 said:


> I agree. I love the kits to play around with, but I am worried that we may not be able to get any more. In looking at amazon lately, the kits are not available and not sure if they are being restocked. All of them are not available right now. I hope that they come back, but not sure. Interesting thing is that they are available on amazon canada, but cannot get them here in the U.S.




I went searching on Amazon for these yesterday and couldn't find them...glad to know its that they aren't available, not that my Amazon-fu is lacking, lol.


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

*Wineexpert Amarone*​

**UPDATED**​​
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!)
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
· Package #2 (bentonite)
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
· Package #4 (Sorbate)
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· Mesh Straining Bag
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

​
 
We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone in the flow*

lets move on a little further....


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

let the flow continue................


----------



## olusteebus

I recommend you not go to the link in the above post


----------



## joeswine

*When good wines gone bad*

what's this all about???/


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese process with raisins*

SANGIOVESE,prince of italian reds,follow the flow..phase 1
Winexpert Sangiovese​ 
Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kit from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase. 
*Next:*
Ok, today is 7 days from when we started this kit. We took our specific gravity reading and it is at 1.028. Slowly it's fermenting dry. 
I also put up a picture of what the bucket looks like right now. You can see there are some bubbles and oak chips floating on top. It smells great! Stay tuned- it will be going into the carboy for secondary fermentation soon.. 
*Next:*
Sorry this was so late getting posted. I had a few hectic weeks. I did manage to take the pictures to keep up with the process. Here we go- it’s getting interesting!

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out. 
*Next:*
Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation: 
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged. 
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at. 
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content. 
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster. 
*Final step to our Sangiovese kit: Bottling!*



Before we started, we got all the tools out of our toolbox that we would need. We also sanitized all our bottles and had them ready.
What we had ready before we started:
Sanitized Bottles
Funnel
Ferrari Bottle Filler
Long Stirring wand
seals
corks
Packets of Sorbate and K-Met that came with the kit
my bottle sealing tool (don't know what it's called but it holds the seal on top the bottle while I dip it into boiling water), notice we didn't filter, that's because we racked down to clear.

Next, we dumped the 2 packets of ingredients into the carboy and gave it a stir w/ the wand (I didn't take a picture of this, you all know how to just give it a stir.)

I then placed the Ferrari bottling tool on top of an empty bottle, put the larger hose into the carboy and applied suction to the smaller hose to start the syphon. Once the wine starts to flow I place this smaller hose into an empty bottle just so it's out of the way. 

What is great about this tool is that once a bottle is full it automatically stops the wine flow so that it doesn't overflow. You will see that it gets to a certain level in the little chamber and then it stops filling. When this happens you put the Ferrari tool into the next bottle and proceed. 

When you have all bottles filled, you cork them. Once they are corked you seal them.

Fit the seal over the bottle, I use a tool that holds the seal on top the bottle for me as I dip them into boiling water. I dip it in, give it one twist real quick and pull it out. (Literally takes 2 seconds and it's sealed.)


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese part2*

phase 2...building the kit........................


----------



## joeswine

*SANGIOVESE PART2 continued*

phase 2 the flow.....................


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese process with raisins*

go back and review the flow ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese process with raisins*

coming to the finish................


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese process with raisins*

good back and review the process from the beggining,a great kit ,good balance and flavor///////////////////


----------



## joeswine

*These are som of the wine kits ...*

HERE are some of the many wine kits I've done any questions???


----------



## joeswine

*wine kits*

wine kits continued....................where always thinking outside the box and having a blast at the same time...


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz and corinthian grapes*

THIS,kit with it's tweaks came out excellent follow the flow and "THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX"...........


----------



## joeswine

*SHARAZ with CORTHINIAN grapes*

CONTINUES WITH THE FLOW..........................BOTTOM PHOTO SHOW A CABERNET WE ALSO USED CORTHINIAN GRAPES IN,A NICE PARTNER TO WORK WITH TRY ONE AND YOU'LL SEE THE DIFFERENCE.............


----------



## joeswine

*taking a brake*

taking a break will restart up on APRIL 20th


----------



## joeswine

*Bodega a spanish store*

On our tour of southern spain we encounter a spanish bodega that has been around making wine for nearly 600 years take the tour with me it's fun and different.


----------



## joeswine

*Bodega tour cont.*

continue the tour it was great and cold. TAKE YOUR TIME AND WILL CONTINUE THE TOUR ..THE CERAMIC VESSELS ARE TO BE BELIEVED...........


----------



## corinth

*when good wines gone bad: Espana*

Glad to see that you went to Spain. Great pictures! I was there about 38 years ago with my hard-Core back packing wife( she has slowed down a bit since then). I remember we went to Jerez de la frontera and visited the winery where they make Harvey’s. I still have the bottle of Canasta cream we bought while there.I am glad we did all our pack packing when we were young. I could not do it these days--my wife could!

Glad you returned safe
Corinth


----------



## Boatboy24

Really cool. Thanks for sharing, Joe.


----------



## JohnT

Real Neat Joe. Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour continues*

just a few more interresting pics to share.


----------



## ibglowin

Very cool pics Joe. Thanks for the tour!


----------



## joeswine

*100,000*

finally broke 100,000 views thanks to all ..................


----------



## joeswine

*A Spanish wine tour*

go back and take a tour though wine time in spain....


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo*

in keeping with my Spanish tour here is a ROJO wine ,when this wine was completed it was a mouthful of taste ,texture and substance,worthy of any cellar and by increasing the abv, it almost has a brandy finish in 1 years time this will be excellent. PHASE TO TWO TO FOLLOW.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo cont.*

the process continues.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

21 days in cold soak..........crystal clear


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joes those pictures are great! It's so hard to imagine anything in this country that has been around 600 years. Thanks for sharing, my friend.


----------



## sour_grapes

LoneStarLori said:


> Joes those pictures are great! It's so hard to imagine anything in this country that has been around 600 years.



Well, there is this, of course, from 800 years ago. (Larger than London was at the time.)


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour continues*

I'm reposting the Spanish wine tour for those of you who miss it then I'll move on..


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour continues*

600 year history of wine making ,they believed in the earths environments and the constellations for the harvest this BODEGA...had all that heritage going for it and there product showed off their art for wine making........................SKILLS..


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour continues*

LAST BUT NOT FORGOTTEN...........


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend*

this wine turned out fabulous and is probably one of the best i've made.follow my thoughts on the process and very soon will bottle.when you can and see these combination kits come around once a year do yourself a big wine favor and get one.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

CONTINUE THE FLOW.............OUTSTANDING TO THE END..........


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend*

A EXCELLENT WHITE WITH A TWIST,FOLLOW THE FLOW........................................


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

FOLLOW THE FLOW,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## JohnT

Hey Joe, 

Was that 21 of cold soak before or after fermentation? In other words, was that a 21 day cold soak or 21 day cold stabilize?


----------



## joeswine

*cold soak*

*21 days cold soak* after primary while in the secondary to stabilize at that point the wine was basically still, the primary reason was the _high pectin haze content do to the fermentation of a grape FPAC that I made_ in the primary, this then created more solids in the wine and required just a little more effort to help clear and clear it did,*JohnT* this is the best white I have ever tasted commercial or home made, bare non.


----------



## ceeaton

Hey Joe,

How cold was the cold soak?

Carboy and wine sure looks nice in that Harrisburg Dairy Milk crate.


----------



## joeswine

*cold soak*

cold soak is at 45 degrees....................


----------



## corinth

*The best you have ever tasted*

Hi Joe,
The Best White wine you have ever tasted,bare none? I guess I see another entry and a gold medal in the horizon.

Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*Torrents*

FINALLY AT THE END WITH THE TORRENTS AND A NICE PROJECT THIS TURNED OUT TO BE ,CLEAN AND FRUITY, YET NOT OVER POWERING, GREAT COLOR AND A DISTINCTIVE TASTE ALL IT'S OWN .FOLLOW THE FLOW FROM FRONT TO END .


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes*

TORRONTES CONTINUED.........


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

MY SECOND FAVORITE ITALIAN RED IS SANGIOVESE SMOOTH RICH AND BALANCED FOLLOW ME AND MY VERSION OF THIS OUTSTANDING ITALIAN RED FROM BEGINNING TO BOTTLING IN TWO PHASES............


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

THE FLOW CONTINUES.........................LAST PHASE TO COME THE DEGASSING AND BOTTLING,THEN THE WAIT AND TASTE.......................................


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

now we let it rest,,,,,.....remember what I had stated making wine was like making a sauce, by adding flavor at different points we layer the structure of the wine and try and create a well balanced product. Don't be afraid to explore your taste buds and always* think outside the box. bottling the finally will follow*..


----------



## corinth

*sangiovese*

Hi joe,
what is that cannister that you were using on your carboy that you were working one?

Thanks.
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*corinth*

if your asking what the carboy is sitting in it's a mike crate I use them everywhere.


----------



## corinth

Hi Joe, I did not explain myself well,
What I meant was that steel cannister that you were turning on.
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*corinth*

that was dri- nitrogen


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

BOTTLING TIME .....


----------



## joeswine

*Super tucan*

I WILL BE STARTING MY SUPER TUSCAN TODAY BUT I FIRST WANTED TO GET SOME HISTORY ON THE WINE WITH OUT BECOMING OVERWHELMED WITH IT,SO HERE'S IT IN A NUT SHELL,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
*SUPER TUSCAN Super Tuscanshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tignanello_BMK.jpg*

_Tignanello_ one of the early Super Tuscans.
Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as _vino da tavola_ - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]
The marchese Piero Antinori was one of the first to create a "Chianti-style" wine that ignored the DOC regulations, releasing a 1971 Sangiovese-Cabernet Sauvignon blend known as _Tignanello_ in 1978. Other producers followed suit and soon the prices for these Super Tuscans were consistently beating the prices of some of most well known Chianti. Rather than rely on name recognition of the Chianti region, the Super Tuscan producers sought to create a wine brand that would be recognizable on its own merits by consumers. By the late 1980s, the trend of creating high quality non-DOC wines had spread to other regions of Tuscany, as well as Piedmont and Veneto. Modification to the Chianti DOC regulation attempted to "correct" the issues of Super Tuscans, so that many of the original Super Tuscans would now qualify as standard DOC/G Chianti. Most producers have brought their Super Tuscans back under legal regulations, notably since the creation of the less restrictive IGT _Toscana_ designation in 1992 and the DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia designation in 1994.[6]
In addition to wines based on the Sangiovese grape, many well known Super Tuscans are based on a "Bordeaux-blend", meaning a combination of grapes typical for Bordeaux (esp. Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot). These grapes are not originally from the region, but imported and planted later. The climate in Tuscany has proven to be very good for these grapes. One of the first successful Super Tuscan based "Bordeaux-blend" was _Sassicaia_, by Tenuta San Guido, now classified as DOC Bolgheri.


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

super tuscan follow the flow ,remember i thought and planned this out first...


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

FOLLOW THE FLOW.............


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

LAST BUT NOT LEAST..............PAY ATTENTION WHEN YOU OPEN UP THE FPAC CUT THE END AS THEY DESCRIBE,TAKE YOUR TIME AND HAVE A BALL.............GREAT KIT ,GO SLOW.....................ONCE I CAPITALIZED THE WINE WITH 1 QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP THE FINAL ABV WAS AT 14% WITH A PH OF 4.0..THIS WILL BE A DEEP RICH ROBUST ITALIAN RED WHEN FINISHED...STAY THE COURSE.........
*SUPER TUSCANSuper Tuscans[edit]*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tignanello_BMK.jpg
_Tignanello_ one of the early Super Tuscans.
Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as _vino da tavola_ - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]
The marchese Piero Antinori was one of the first to create a "Chianti-style" wine that ignored the DOC regulations, releasing a 1971 Sangiovese-Cabernet Sauvignon blend known as _Tignanello_ in 1978. Other producers followed suit and soon the prices for these Super Tuscans were consistently beating the prices of some of most well known Chianti. Rather than rely on name recognition of the Chianti region, the Super Tuscan producers sought to create a wine brand that would be recognizable on its own merits by consumers. By the late 1980s, the trend of creating high quality non-DOC wines had spread to other regions of Tuscany, as well as Piedmont and Veneto. Modification to the Chianti DOC regulation attempted to "correct" the issues of Super Tuscans, so that many of the original Super Tuscans would now qualify as standard DOC/G Chianti. Most producers have brought their Super Tuscans back under legal regulations, notably since the creation of the less restrictive IGT _Toscana_ designation in 1992 and the DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia designation in 1994.[6]
In addition to wines based on the Sangiovese grape, many well known Super Tuscans are based on a "Bordeaux-blend", meaning a combination of grapes typical for Bordeaux (esp. Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot). These grapes are not originally from the region, but imported and planted later. The climate in Tuscany has proven to be very good for these grapes. One of the first successful Super Tuscan based "Bordeaux-blend" was _Sassicaia_, by Tenuta San Guido, now classified as DOC Bolgheri.


----------



## geek

Joe, I personally wouldn't trust those PH strips, that PH should be high being at 4.0.
Time to get a real PH meter ......


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

I have used them since I've started wine making and they get you close enough for a kit, I don't need high tech to make a better then good wine. and since the ph. is a direct playoff of what comes with the kit it should be spot on for this one, with or without high tech my fine vino friend.....


----------



## JohnT

.... not that there is anything wrong with tech....


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

I'm MOVING FORWARD THE FLOW FOR THE SUPER TUSCAN..THERE ARE A LOT OF MOVING PARTS TO THIS KIT...............


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

LOTS TO DO FOLLOW THE FLOW..........


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

LOTS TO DO..................21 STEPS


----------



## corinth

*super Tuscan II*

Hi Joe,
I hope life finds you and your family healthy and happy.

I purchased The Winery Series Tuscan kit. It came with two jars of merlot skins, a large mesh bag for the skins, One large packet of Oak shaving, over 42 lbs of wine The yeast is EC-118. The brand is RJ Spagnols.Should I use a different yeast or is EC-118 adequate

I have read the instructions and compared them to yours, a couple of small variations.

Since I have two rather large jars of grape skins, I am assuming I do not need the raisins in the primary or do I?

I would like to start today as I have all my ducks all in a row.
Advice?

Thanks,
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

Corinth,
Thank you. we are all well.
I would add a 1/2 cup of raisins to the primary. 
Did you get any dextrose with this kit? If not, 1 quart of simple syrup to the primary should do ya good. 
Joe


----------



## corinth

*super Tuscan II*

Hi Joe,
So, I am looking for a starting Sg of 1.075 -1.100?
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*Starting sg*

THAT IS CORRECT THIS IS A MUCH BETTER STARTING POINT FOR WINE MAKING THEN AT A LESSER STANDARD,YOUR MAKING WINE A MED. BODY RED WITH OAK,THE WINE WILL HAVE A GOOD BALANCE..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

WHILE WERE IN THE PRIMARY I'M GOING TO MOVE THE FIRST PHASE FORWARD FOR REVIEW....


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

IN REVIEW.....................


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

just a few more frames to go...........


----------



## joeswine

*SUPER TUSCAN phase two*

finally after 9 days it's ready to move on to the secondary stage.this was a transition that you are going to experience a kit that will put you to work ,almost as close as you will get to a actual crush experience with out real grapes, very cool...take a look ...............there will be sludge in the bottom and floaters on the top,*siphon from the middle down*, understand? take your grape skins and a deep pot ,using a colander place.. the skins into the colander and squeeze the juice out of them then disguard, add this juice to the base in a clean carboy, then you'll have some left in the bucket screen out what you can and add it to the carboy, don't worry about the sludge you've just added ,we will start a pre -cleaning with the addition of superkleer in the secondary as well as degas at the same time ,this is a awesome kit ,it has every component that you could want in a bottle of wine, take *your time ,go slow and stay the course...notice I have my headspace eliminator on ,very cool tool..*


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

up date.....added the clearing agent and the basic chems that came along with the kit, the taste is good if your allow it to roll all over your mouth you can taste the wines worth at this point. I added wine tannins and a oak round to beef up the _acidity,_ in the next two weeks will take a readings on the PH and see where it's at, other then that the wine will have to mature on it's own ,*so far so very good.*


----------



## wineforfun

corinth said:


> Hi Joe,
> So, I am looking for a starting Sg of 1.075 -1.100?
> Corinth



You are looking for a starting SG of 1.095-1.100, not 1.075.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

starting sg should be between 1.075 and 1.1o


----------



## wineforfun

joeswine said:


> starting sg should be between 1.075 and 1.1o



What brand are those instructions from?

Not RJS Winery Series(and if they are, not a newer one) as Corinth mentioned. My instructions that I read, read 1.095-1.100. That is from a 2014 RJS Winery Series Super Tuscan.

With the numbers your instructions for Brand X, the final ABV will be anywhere from 10.5 - 13.0.

Ok, I looked back and see you are comparing apples to oranges, your kit is a WineXpert. Corinth had asked about an RJS, which reads differently. 
RJS kits, for the most part, always call for a SG of 1.095-1.100 to start.


----------



## sour_grapes

corinth said:


> Hi Joe,
> So, I am looking for a starting Sg of 1.075 -1.100?
> Corinth



As DJ points out, 1.075 would be low. However, a lot of the sugar is in the grape pack. I just made this very kit. Before adding the grape pack, the SG was 1.078. A day or two after adding the pack, the SG rose to 1.096. (I used a slow-starting yeast, BM45, which gave the sugar some time to dissolve before the SG started declining quickly due to fermentation.)


----------



## sour_grapes

wineforfun said:


> What brand are those instructions from?
> 
> Not RJS Winery Series(and if they are, not a newer one) as Corinth mentioned. My instructions that I read, read 1.095-1.100. That is from a 2014 RJS Winery Series Super Tuscan.
> 
> With the numbers your instructions for Brand X, the final ABV will be anywhere from 10.5 - 13.0.



DJ, this is the WE LE 2014 Super Tuscan. It looks promising to me so far!! Yum.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

winexpert limited edition super tuscan


----------



## geek

sour_grapes said:


> As DJ points out, 1.075 would be low. However, a lot of the sugar is in the grape pack. I just made this very kit. Before adding the grape pack, the SG was 1.078. A day or two after adding the pack, the SG rose to 1.096. (I used a slow-starting yeast, BM45, which gave the sugar some time to dissolve before the SG started declining quickly due to fermentation.)



ditto on the SG for this kit, I made it too.


----------



## joeswine

*Super Tuscan*

okay lets take it from the top. see the base line *sg* before *grape PAC*. After *grape PAC* and then* capitalization* potential abv is at *14%..that and the oak and tannins plus the 1/2 cup of raisins in the primary will give this SUPER TUSCAN all it can handle without being over powering .*
*before capitalization it was at 13% WITH ONE QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP ADDED IT CAME UP TO 14% SORRY FOR THE PICS CONFUSION.*


----------



## joeswine

*SUPER TUSCAN phase two*

racked twice , added Chems and added fining agent and re-cleared,tasted very nice..still very young  but a real winner...............


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

LETS RECAP THE SUPER TUSCAN IN REVIEW AT THIS POINT IT'S JUST SITTING I WILL PROBLY BOTTLE IN ONE WEEK ,THAT'S HOW I LIKE IT TO AGE SO THAT I CAN TAKE GOOD TASTE AS NEEDED...FOLLOW THE FLOW..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

THE FLOW CONTINUES IF THERE SOMETHING YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT... JUST ASK..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

IT'S A LONG READ HAVE PATIENTS....... IT EXTENDS OVER 24 PHOTOS THERE'S A LOT TO DO AND SO LITTLE TIME TO DO IT!


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

SO FAR SO GOOD AT FIRST TASTING THE BITE WASN'T WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR (NEED MORE ) SO I RACKED DOWN TO A- 5 GALLON CARBOY -WILL DEGAS AT THAT POINT. THE *PH* WAS AT_ 3.6_ SHOULD BE AT LEAST_ 4.0 TO .5_ WILL LET IT REST, THEN ADD SOME MORE LAYERS OF FLAVOR..


----------



## JohnT

Joe, 

Did you ever try using something like this?? 







Stick it into your wine and you can use a pump without clogging.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

I'M GOING TO MOVE THE THREAD FORWARD IN IT'S ENTIRETY .


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

FOLLOW THE FLOW A FEW CHANGES IN THE ABV. TO FOLLOW .....


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

IT'S A BITE LONG STAY THE COURSE..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

JUST A LITTLE MORE TO THE FLOW....


----------



## RCGoodin

*Where do you get these?*



JohnT said:


> Joe,
> 
> Did you ever try using something like this??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stick it into your wine and you can use a pump without clogging.



Where can one purchase these?


----------



## JohnT

Actually, the one I have is stainless steel, but you can make one easily enough. Go to Lowes and get some 2" pvc, attach an end cap (no glue), and drill about a "gah-jillion" 1/8" holes in it. Total cost is about $10, and it is food safe (they plumb houses with the stuff these days).


----------



## ibglowin

I would not use PVC for any wine application. Water use (drain lines) may be OK (pH=7) but Wine use (acidic and containing a solvent ethanol) (pH =~ 3.5) is a way different application. Be safe and use something better suited and more resistant such as HDPE or HDPP.



JohnT said:


> Actually, the one I have is stainless steel, but you can make one easily enough. Go to Lowes and get some 2" pvc, attach an end cap (no glue), and drill about a "gah-jillion" 1/8" holes in it. Total cost is about $10, and it is food safe (they plumb houses with the stuff these days).


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

OKAY WHILE THIS ONE IS SITTING LETS GO OVER MY CHANGES SO FAR 2 WEEKS TILL BOTTLING..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

THIS IS A LITTLE LONG BUT THEN THE KIT IS A LITTLE EXPENSIVE...


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

moving right along ,did you notice how i cut the corner of the grape pacs corner off??


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

COMING TO A END....
*SUPER TUSCANSuper Tuscans[edit]*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tignanello_BMK.jpg
_Tignanello_ one of the early Super Tuscans.
Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as _vino da tavola_ - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]
The marchese Piero Antinori was one of the first to create a "Chianti-style" wine that ignored the DOC regulations, releasing a 1971 Sangiovese-Cabernet Sauvignon blend known as _Tignanello_ in 1978. Other producers followed suit and soon the prices for these Super Tuscans were consistently beating the prices of some of most well known Chianti. Rather than rely on name recognition of the Chianti region, the Super Tuscan producers sought to create a wine brand that would be recognizable on its own merits by consumers. By the late 1980s, the trend of creating high quality non-DOC wines had spread to other regions of Tuscany, as well as Piedmont and Veneto. Modification to the Chianti DOC regulation attempted to "correct" the issues of Super Tuscans, so that many of the original Super Tuscans would now qualify as standard DOC/G Chianti. Most producers have brought their Super Tuscans back under legal regulations, notably since the creation of the less restrictive IGT _Toscana_ designation in 1992 and the DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia designation in 1994.[6]
In addition to wines based on the Sangiovese grape, many well known Super Tuscans are based on a "Bordeaux-blend", meaning a combination of grapes typical for Bordeaux (esp. Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot). These grapes are not originally from the region, but imported and planted later. The climate in Tuscany has proven to be very good for these grapes. One of the first successful Super Tuscan based "Bordeaux-blend" was _Sassicaia_, by Tenuta San Guido, now classified as DOC Bolgheri.


----------



## corinth

*super Tuscan II*

Hi Joe,
It is progressing very well.I think the only real difference was that mine was a RJ Spagnols which came with two jars of spagnols grape skins.
Regards,
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

always think of wine as a sauce base- you add the enhancers to make it real...that makes it yours ,while still staying true to the profile of the base itself..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

I 'VE HAD AT LEAST 20 PM'S ON THIS SO LETS FLIP IT ONE MORE TIME BEFORE WE BOTTLE,OKAY?


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

lets keep moving down the line.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

WERE NEARING THE END FOR NOW STAY THE COURSE..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

6 MORE PICS TO GO, this is a long list of items I know but the kit is expensive and I want more than it can give so I need to work it, no harm in that .


----------



## chefken

I'm about to start my second super Tuscan kit. The first one I followed WE's instructions, the second one I'm thinking about changing the yeast to BM 4X4 w


----------



## chefken

Would I need to add Fermaid K to help the yeast?


----------



## JohnT

chefken said:


> Would I need to add Fermaid K to help the yeast?


 

NEED is a strong word... 

Technically, the answer is no. Without it, yeast will ferment sugar. 

That being said, I would (in the strangest way possible) recommend that you add your Fermaid K in the prescribed dosages. 

This is a matter of yeast nutrients. Much like flowers and vegetables needing fertilizer, so does yeast need nutrients. 

Think of a garden. Without any fertilizer, you can grow vegetables. They might end up small, unproducing, and not very robust and flavorful, but you can grow them just the same.

When yeast is starved for nutrients, bad things can happen. Yeast breakdown and H2S issues are very likely. Believe me, you want to avoid these issues.


----------



## sour_grapes

chefken said:


> Would I need to add Fermaid K to help the yeast?



I have completed that Super Tuscan kit using BM45 and no additional yeast nutrients, and had no problems or off flavors. (As you likely know, BM45 is one of the two components of BM4x4.) So I would wager you do not need to add nutrients (although it wouldn't hurt anything if you did).


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

THIS kit with my *tweaks* for *me* is all it needs to be, sometimes to fancy isn't going to cut it. If you add the heater strip you'll have all the interaction you need to have accrued. The addition of simple syrup and oak as well as tannins and 1/2 cup of raisins is all that is needed yet alone a huge *fpac *( imo) the higher end kits *you* need to be careful of their *balance*.


----------



## chefken

Thank you all for your guidance


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

OKAY it's been about 8 weeks since I started this kit and it's ready to move forward, before that lets go back and review the flow and then will bottle, okay.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

lets continue the flow...


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

there's a lot to this flow this is a lot of kit ..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

not sure when but we may go onto the next page
*SUPER TUSCAN Super Tuscans*
* just a little history*
_Tignanello_ one of the early Super Tuscans.
Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as _vino da tavola_ - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]
The marchese Piero Antinori was one of the first to create a "Chianti-style" wine that ignored the DOC regulations, releasing a 1971 Sangiovese-Cabernet Sauvignon blend known as _Tignanello_ in 1978. Other producers followed suit and soon the prices for these Super Tuscans were consistently beating the prices of some of most well known Chianti. Rather than rely on name recognition of the Chianti region, the Super Tuscan producers sought to create a wine brand that would be recognizable on its own merits by consumers. By the late 1980s, the trend of creating high quality non-DOC wines had spread to other regions of Tuscany, as well as Piedmont and Veneto. Modification to the Chianti DOC regulation attempted to "correct" the issues of Super Tuscans, so that many of the original Super Tuscans would now qualify as standard DOC/G Chianti. Most producers have brought their Super Tuscans back under legal regulations, notably since the creation of the less restrictive IGT _Toscana_ designation in 1992 and the DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia designation in 1994.[6]
In addition to wines based on the Sangiovese grape, many well known Super Tuscans are based on a "Bordeaux-blend", meaning a combination of grapes typical for Bordeaux (esp. Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot). These grapes are not originally from the region, but imported and planted later. The climate in Tuscany has proven to be very good for these grapes. One of the first successful Super Tuscan based "Bordeaux-blend" was _Sassicaia_, by Tenuta San Guido, now classified as DOC Bolgheri.

, follow the flow,,,not much more left.


----------



## richmke

@joeswine, as an LE kit, this is your first time making it. How can you tell you need to add raisins?


----------



## LoneStarLori

Looking good Joe! I should have ordered that kit. I can smell it from here.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

richmke:this style wine like a AMARONE depth can always be added to it and there wasn't that much of a raisins content ,but enough to add some small amount of depth, how do I know because I've learned how to *think outside the box, and I can make a good sauce.*
*Lori ,where have you been ???mist your winemaking skills on this forum and yes this one will turn out just fine....*
* were over 110,000 views,thanks to you all.*


----------



## chefken

*Puffy Juice Bag*

So I'm getting ready to make my second LE Super Tuscan kit and plan on following Joe's tweaks and the box was bulging. Carefully opening the box the juice bag has lots of air and is very puffy. Does anyone think this is safe to open and/or even make. I've emailed Winepert and waiting a reply. The first kit was made following the enclosed instructions so it will be interesting to compare when they are both done.


----------



## Boatboy24

Sounds like you've got a fermentation going already.


----------



## joeswine

*super tuscanl*

I would not use that base wine seeywhat WwwE states first


----------



## chefken

This is the response from Winexpert. "The kit has begun to ferment. Make the wine kit today and all should be fine."


----------



## joeswine

*Super tucan*

what do you want to do??it shouldn't have started fermentations in my view I would ask them to send me a new kit or base wine bag, do you want to start the kit ?if so start it now.


----------



## chefken

I decided to start the kit. The juice bag did not have a bad odor or any other negatives that I could see. Before the tweaks as you suggest the sg was 1.068 and after 1.092. Pitched yeast a few minutes ago. Thanks for your help.


----------



## sour_grapes

chefken said:


> I decided to start the kit. The juice bag did not have a bad odor or any other negatives that I could see. Before the tweaks as you suggest the sg was 1.068 and after 1.092. Pitched yeast a few minutes ago. Thanks for your help.



Gee, mine was 1.078 (before adding grape pack). Maybe yours WAS fermenting?


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan in review*

I took my time and planned my work then worked my plan, yield was *24 bottles* and the taste so far is spot on, good fruit ,depth of flavor and acidity for balance. NOTE; the *PH level* was correct AT 4.0 and if I liked my wine a with a little more acidity I would have allowed it to sit longer with the added oak inside or if I had a barrel I WOULD HAVE LET THIS SET ONE MORE MONTH .
*Here are some of the high lites to the finish. TIME TO MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ONE?*

DO NOT CUT YOUR ACHOLO LEVEL SHORT SHOOT FOR 14% *THIS WINE AND* *THE AMARONE YOU NEED TO HAVE BALANCE AND GOOD ABV. VERSES WOOD,GOT IT!*


----------



## sour_grapes

joeswine said:


> yield was *24 bottles*




But earlier:







Joe, just curious: Why do you think your yield was so low? It looks like you have lost well over a gallon. (Unless, of course, the "wine gremlins" got to it during quality control sessions!)


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

not sure why the yields were about 4 bottles low ,it could be do to the fact that i started at the 6 gallon mark with the fpac included and not entering it after the addition of water,but my results were very good as far as taste and texture though,it could also be do to the use of the belly band i get a higher rate of boil off,not sure ,but what i,m sure of is the end product.IT ACTUALLY CONCENTRATED THE FLAVOR. will send you a bottle if you would like?


----------



## Johnd

joeswine:
This is a new hobby for me, I'm on my 17th kit, and pretty well hooked. My engineering education and I guess just the way I'm wired makes me a reader, note taker and process follower. My dad collects fine wines from around the world and has a cellar with several thousand bottles and I get to drink some incredible wines, made in the "traditional ways" (no tweaking). That's the direction my wine making style was headed in.

Over the last few weeks, intrigued by your postings, I undertook a study of "when good wines gone bad" and "thinking outside the box", reading, studying and taking notes. Read through all 5 + years of posts, saw threads from those who disagree with your methods, some very rudely. Doubtful, but experimenting with a cheap kit while reading I did an Orchard Breezin Peach kit, tweaking along the way. Switched yeast, added the kit F Pack in primary, boosted the SG to 1.10 with simple syrup, used raisins. Made a peach F Pack, zested and sweetened before bottling. Never did any of that before. Had way more fun than any other kit I've done, have people begging me for a bottle. You're spot on.

So now I have a tool box, but still haven't used a lot of the tools, but intend to. Why shouldn't I make my wines as good as they can be, regardless of the methods? Heck, if I could dump a magic powder into my wine to make it perfect for me, I would.

About to start an Eclipse Yakima Pinot Gris, got yeast, golden raisins, simple syrup, and zesting tool on hand.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for your years of posts and for sharing all that you have learned. I'm sure I'll screw up some wine, but I'm going to have a good time doing it!


----------



## jh0330

Finished reading all pages!
Amazing pictures 

I have my first blackberry wine must fermenting away (50hours in).
I was initially following a rather simple youtube guide but reading and researching kept leading me to new questions.
Although my guide didn't call for it, I wanted to add bentonite and oak chips.
After watching your thread, I decided I DEFINITELY want to add bentonite and oak chips. 

Its been 50hours in the fermentation process, can I add this now?


----------



## JimmyT

*when good wines gone bad*



jh0330 said:


> Its been 50hours in the fermentation process, can I add this now?




I've added bentonite at the beginning, after fermentation and also a few days in. I've read on here people adding it on the 3rd day of ferm on everything.


----------



## joeswine

*When good wines gone bad*

REPLYS:_ JOHND_;YES SOME HAVE NOT AGREED WITH ME AND THAT'S OK THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO AND SO DO I,BUT I PRACTICE WHAT I PREACH AND I KNOW WHAT WORKS WITH KIT'S AND FRESH JUICE THAT'S WHERE I STARTED,IT PAYS TO *THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX,JUST AS THERE ARE COUNTLESS ARTISAN BREWERY'S OUT THERE AND COUNTLESS TYPES OF WINES YOU CAN MAKE INSTEAD OF THE OLD BORING STANDBYS. ALL THAT'S REQUIRED IS YOUR IMAGINATION AND WITH THE C*ORRECT PROFILE AND ENHANCERS TO MAKE YOUR IMAGE COME TRUE,SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS WHAT YOU EXPECTED IT TO BE ,BUT THEN THERE'S ALWAYS THE NEXT TIME...THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND THAT'S A LOT OF READING! BY THE WAY DON'T ADD RAISINS TO THE_ GRIS_ JUST THE ZEST_(GRAPEFRUIT_) AND BUMP UP THE ABV. TO 1.10 TO START.IF YOUR CAN MAKE A WHITE GRAPE FPAC FOR IT.
JH0330:ALWAYS START THE PROCESS WITH THE BENTONITE IN THE PRIMARY,NOT THE SECONDARY, IT AIDS WITH THE FERMENTATION AND STARTS THE PRIMARY FINING PROCESS,GETS YOU OFF TO A _QUICK_ AND _CLEAN START_.


----------



## Johnd

joeswine, I intend to add the bentonite in primary, but am curious about the white grape f-pack. The first pinot gris I made was a Mosti Mondiale All Juice, it came golden raisins for use in the primary. Any thoughts there?? Probably the only white grapes I can get down here are going to be store bought white grapes, will those do?? If so, how many pounds would you recommend? I assume you'd put the f-pack in at the time of clearing / fining / kms / sorbate additions??


----------



## joeswine

*Adding the fpac*

*YES* YOU CAN USE_ THOMPSON SEEDLESS_ OR THE WHITSH ONES YOU SEE AT THE LOCAL STORE (1LB. OR SO) JUST SAUTÉ THEM DOWN GENTLY WITH A LITTLE WHITE WINE OF YOUR CHOICE ADD THEM TO THE PRIMARY ALONG WITH THE BENTONITE AND YEAST THAT'S WHERE THEY WILL BE MOST BENEFICIAL TO YOUR WINES MIX. THEN WHEN YOU MOVE TO THE SECONDARY (DEGAS) ADD THE ZEST OF 1/2 GRAPE FRUIT,LET IT SET TWO WEEKS THEN RACK AND CLEAR.  THE FINISH SHOULD BE CRISP AND CLEAN WITH A NICE BITE TO IT,THAT'S THE GRAPEFRUIT ADDING JUST A TOUCH OF ACIDITY TO THE MIX.NOW YOU HAVE A FPAC AT THE READY OR VACUMNE SEAL AND FREEZE FOR LATER,GOT IT!


----------



## Johnd

Got it Joe!! Freed up a primary last nite and will attack the Pinot Gris this weekend. The pics are a nice touch!


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port stage one*

WERE NEARRING THE BOTTLING STAGE OF THIS PORT SO I WOULD LIKE TO REVISIT THE FLOW BEFORE WE CONTINUE....IT'S A LONG ONE BE PATIENT> THREE STAGES..


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port phase two*

FOLLOW THE FLOW ANY QUESTIONS?


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port phase three*

THIS WILL BE ANOTHER* (BEST OF SHOW)* WHEN IT'S AGED .

1. BLACK BERRY PORT: THIS KIT HAS ALL THE PROPERITIES OF THE COFFE AND CARAMEL WINE PORT KITS THE DIFFERENCE IS IT’S A WINE EXPERTS AND NOT A CRU...ALL THE SAME PLAYERS ARE INVOLVED, HERE IS WHAT ARE CHANGES WILL BE:​

1. CAPITOLIZE WITH SIMPLE SYRUP RATHER THAN, THEIR DEXTROUSE IS EQUAL TO 1 QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP.
2. THE ADDITION OF OUR OWN *FRESH BLACKBERRY* FPAC TO THE SECONDARY

3. THE ADDITION OF 1 TABLE SPOON OF *WINE TANNINS*TO THE SECONDARY FOR BALANCE *PHASE 2:* CAPITALIZATION, ONE QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP AT THIS POINT DO NOT RACK LET THE YEAST AND SYRUP WORK TOGETHER FOR AT LEAST 3 TO 4 DAYS,STILL IN A OPEN BUCKET,BE READY TO MOVE TO GLASS BY THEN.

4. WE REMOVED THE PORT FROM THE BUCKET AND HAD MORE THEN NEEDED BY ½ GALLON .AFTER EXTRACTION OF SOME SO I COULD WORK THE PORT AND ADD THE CHEMS AND FINING AGENT AND GIVE AGOOD STIR, I WAS ABLE TO TOP OFF WITH THE BASE PORT LEFT OVERS, WITH THE ½ GALLON LEFT I WILL MAKE A BLACK BERRY CELLO., NOW WILL LET TIME WORK ON THE PRODUCT IT TASTED EXCELLENT AT THIS STAGE IT CAN ONLY GET BETTER…
 .....FOLLOW THE FLOW ....


----------



## chefken

Today I degassed and racked the super Tuscan following Joe's tweaks and boy does it taste good. Tannins are sharp but it's only 4 weeks old. It will go into the barrel around September 1st to age for a few months. Thanks to Joe this will be a "best of show" wine.


----------



## JohnT

I am reading these posts and have to say that you are a great asset to this forum Joe.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

CHEFKEN:THANKS FOR THE THOUGHTS AND AS ALWAYS KEEP (*THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX).*

*johnt: you are a pro at this hobby and can (think outside the box), I know I've tasted your product..yours jp...*


----------



## joeswine

*Port wine kits*

HERE ARE SOME EXCELLENT EXAMPLES OF PORT WINE KITS TO MAKE AND* THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX* WITH............................ALL ARE VERY ADAPTABLE TO YOU TASTE AND ACHOLO LEVELS SWEET OR DRY...YOUR THE BOSS....


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

SANGIOVESE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE RED WINES FOLLOW MY FLOW AND SEE WHAT YOU THINK..
ITS A LONG ONE............


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

sangiovese continued....


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

MORE TO COME STAY THE COURSE........... BALANCE TO FOLLOW.....GO BACK AND READ THE ENTIRE FLOW TO THIS POINT...


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

moving into the final phases of this out standing wine.


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*



 GO BACK AND REVIEW THE SANGIOVESE PROCESS.


----------



## joeswine

*Black current wine continued*

follow this process and enjoy the finish.


----------



## joeswine

*Black current wine continued*

THE FLOW CONTINUES NICE KIT..


----------



## joeswine

*Black current wine continued*

still more to the flow..be patient


----------



## joeswine

*Black current wine continued final*

end of the flow for now...


----------



## joeswine

*Black current desert wine*

GO BACK AND REVIEW THE PROCESS FOR THIS BLACKCURRENT WINE..


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

WHERE GOING TO MAKE A FOURTH *COFFEE PORT* KIT, BUT BEFORE I PROCEED LETS REVIEW WHAT I DID LAST TIME,THIS KIT AND THE TWEAKS HAVE WON ME MANY AN AWARD AND BEST OF SHOWS SO FOLLOW THE FLOW...........


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port continued*

DID YOU NOTICE THE INSTANT COFFEE THIS CREATES A DEEP RICH COFFEE FLAVOR AND AGES EXCELLENT WITH A HINT OF CHOCOLATE ON THE BACK SIDE ,GOOD BODY FROM THE TANNINS,FOLLOW THE FLOW.........


*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​​
*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 


After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

THE KING OF ITALIAN REDS TO SOME, A TASTE TREAT FOR THE TASTE BUDS.FOLLOW THE PROCESS.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

THIS IS A LONG ONE ,BE PATIENT AND FOLLOW THE FLOW.I'M GOING TO STOP AT THIS POINT AND LET YOU DIGEST SOME OF THIS BEFORE I CONTINUE.


----------



## joeswine

*Black current desert wine*

this turn out so dense ,velvet mouthfeel with excellent taste as well .,yield was 15 bottles ........would do this one again..........................


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo*

talk about great this will be my next best of show....follow the tweaks..

DIABLO ROJO; THIS OFF, DRY AND DARK PURPLE IN COLOR BLEND ,NOISE OF BLACKBERRY JAM MINGLED WITH CREATIVE VANILLA AROMAS AND A TOUCH OF TOBACCO AND A BRANDY STYLE FINISH YET IT IS A WINE ALL THE WAY.

SOUNDS LIKE MOUTHFUL. WHERE GONNA MAKE IT JUST THAT. OUR TWEAKS TO THIS KIT WILL BE AS FOLLOWS.

WERE GOING TO CHANGE THE YEAST ,TWO *EC 1118* THIS IS DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE FLUCTUATIONS IN OUR WORKSPACE. SECONDLY, GOING TO ADD A *SMOKED WOODEN STAVE* ALONG WITH OAK TANNINS IN THE SECONDARY. WE ARE GOING TO USE A BELLY BAND DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE IN OUR WORKSPACE. THE OAK STAVE WILL GO IN THE PRIMARY, THE OAK _TANNINS WILL GO IN THE SECONDARY_ AND LONG WITH A *HANDFUL OF FRESH BLACKBERRIES JUST SQUEEZED. THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF FPAC* JUST A HANDFUL OF BERRIES. NOTHING TO OVERPOWER 
BERRIES. NOTHING TO OVERPOWER NOTHING TO OVERWHELM JUST A TOUCH OF BLACKBERRY DEPTH. REMEMBER, THIS IS STILL A ROJO AND THE STYLE IS BOLD AND FRUITY. WE MAY ALSO BRING UP THE ABV. TO 1.14. THIS ONE SHOULD TURN OUT TO BE A MOUTHFUL... FOLLOW THE FLOW..

FINISH; great flavor fruits and woods intertwined medium body and smooth finish. If I WOULD HAVE CHANGED ANYTHING IT WOULD BOOSTED UP THE PH A LITTLE MORE.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo cont.*

FOLLOW THE FLOW.............


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

YOU SEE WITH ITAILIAN WINES IT'S ALL ONE BIG WINO FAMILY....BY USING A CHEAPEER KIT IF YOU LEARN HOW TO *THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX* AND BECOME YOUR OWN WINE _CHEF_ YOU CAN CREATE A VERY GOOD EVERY DAY WINE WITH OUT THE HUGE EXPENSE.FOLLOW THE FLOW........................


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

it's all in the family..the flow continues


----------



## joeswine

*nebbiolo CONTINUED*

moving down the line we've come to a point when degassing and racking along with the chems and finding agents take their roll in the process.


----------



## glen1979

*pinot*

Joe can you help me with any suggestions of a good pinot grigio 30 bottle kit. This will be my first time making wine.


----------



## joeswine

*pino grigio*

It all depends on your budget, to me the brand really isn't the first concern, you can always make a inexpensive kit good and a better kit even better, where would you like to start?


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

moving right along, started 11/19


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

my version of the great Italian red....follow the flow

 phase 1 in the beginning...theirs a lot to this one be patient..


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

phase 2...of many it takes a little planning to take a decent kit to become a very good wine, follow the flow and we will continue later...okay?


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

THESE ARE THE FIRST TWO PHASES OF THIS WINE MAKING ADVENTURE REVIEW THE FLOW AND NEXT WEEK I'll MOVE ON,

MERRY CHRISTMAS


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

NEXT STEP...............AMARONE IS A HIGH ALCOHOL VOLUME BUT IT HAS TO BE TAMED BY BALANCING THE RAISINS A,OAK AND TANNINS IN IT'S MIX.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

the next step.....actually there in reverse order on this thead.


----------



## corinth

*Merry Christmas Joe*

Blessings to you and all your family and may they all be healthy now and for many years to come!

Edward R. Serrano Escajeda


----------



## joeswine

*corinth*

TO YOU AND YOURS MY FINE VINO FRIEND STAY HEALTHY AND SAFE .


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

ARE YOU FOLLOWING THE FLOW??LETS RECAP. SO FAR SO GOOD,WHEN MAKING A KIT THERE IS KNOW NEED TO RUSH THOUGHT THE PROCESS ALWAYS MAKE A PLAN THEN WORK IT HAVING ALL THE TOOLS THAT YOU'LL NEED AT THE READY THAT INCLUDES THE UTENSILS AND WELL AS THE MIX INGREDIENTS.
*Wineexpert Amarone*​**UPDATED**​Here is our kit that we received from Winexperts. This kit is a Winexperts Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!) 
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212 
· 2 Chaptalization Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphate) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak 
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Liters/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Wine thief 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphate Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

UPDATE:​We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexperts Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexperts for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

Happy New Years


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

*new years* is over time to make the wine flow where going to start the bottling process as I do it ,follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits*

*Just when I thought I ‘ve seen it all* and read about all the one gallon trials and errors out there in wine land the manufactures listen WHAT IF to the “PEOPLE”..AND CAME OUT WITH 1 GALLON WINE KITS FOR THOSE WHO WANTED TO TRY BUT DIDN’T KNOW IF IT WAS FOR THEM ,OR FOR A FRIEND WHO LIKED YOUR WINE BUT WASN’T SURE IF IT WAS FOR HIM OR HER.OR FOR THATSPECIAL HOLIDAY,THIS might be known to some but I thought what a novel idea ,so as an *experimental kind of guy,* I just had to get one and see if the manufactures.* SPOT ON.* For the last 15years in this hobby I ‘seen the advent of *grape fpac, raisins, tannins* and *all kinds of flavor enhancers* being applied and for some very nice results and some NOT so well. I have seen many people making 1 gallon batches of this or that and being NOT of that mindset correcting a batch that small wasn’t worth my time or cost. But know I’m going to try one of these to see if they make sense ,so follow the program to its conclusion and as always{ think outside the box}.
OUR TWEAKS: SMALL AMOUNT OF GRAPEFRUIT ZEST IN THE PRIMARY [1/2 OF ONE]
SG. AT 1.10 AND THAT’S IT.
THIS SHOULD BE A 4 WEEK KIT AND DONE.
I JUST RECEIVED ONE OF THESE KITS FROM A FELLOW WINE MAKER AND FRIEND BY THE HANDLE OF _CORINTH_, FROM CALIFORNIA; IT’S A 1 GALLON MERLOT KIT THE TWEAKS, _TANNINS AND GOOD_ _ABV._NOTHING MUCH MORE THEN THAT I WANT TO KEEP THIS AS SMOOTH AS POSSIBLE, THEN I’LL SHIP HIM A BOTTLE TO SAY _THANK YOU_ .IT IS AMAZING TO ME HOW WINE MAKING CAN CREATE FELLOWSHIPS AROUND THE BLOCK AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

*ADDED 1/3 CUP* *RAISINS*, THE OAK SUPPLIED CAME IN A GROUNDED FORM 3.4GR AND ALMOST POWDER 6GR, VERY COOL 

THANKS AGAIN*...CORINTH* 
FOLLOW THE FLOW THESE CAN ALSO BE USED AS A ADDED BLEND REMEMBER THAT.


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits continued*

follow the flow and think what you could create with one of these kits!


----------



## corinth

*one gallon kit*

thanks Joe,
Can't wait for the bottle. watching you work is a great Christmas gift to me.

Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*Vintners Cabernet with Blueberries*

Interesting how creating a wine partnership in flavors can even make a moderately prices kit even better follow the flow on this one and see how the blueberries added a great taste treat to this cabs profile ,follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Vintners Cabernet with Blueberries continues*

follow the flow.....


----------



## joeswine

*Vintners Cabernet with Blueberries continues*

just a little more to go be patient.


----------



## Tnuscan

Makesmewontsum.


----------



## barbiek

Mmmmmm yummy looking good joe!


----------



## joeswine

*Blue berry cabernay*

these vintner kits are great for playing around and experimenting with not onlt that you can make a decent bottle of wine at a not so bad a price if you learn to *think outside the box.*

CORINTH,THE WINE IS ABOUT 4 WEEKS OUT..


----------



## joeswine

*1gallon wine kits continued*

take a look at these little beauties, remember what I said great as a starter kit for someone *but think outside the box* I now have one gallon of merlot and pino grigio to blend into something else.


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish vino blanc*

lets take a trip from beginning to end on this one, the finish was smooth but lite to med. body ,back end decent a great wine on its own or with seafood or cheeses ,tappas anyone. Follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour continues*

yes the process is like a tour we go from event to event think about it ,follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish vino blanco*

be patient still a little more to go,,,,,


----------



## geek

Joe, how much you pay for those labels, I assume you order a 30ct. Where do you order from is it online and does it allow you to design it?


----------



## ibglowin

Joe, this a generic instruction set that the manufacturer can put into BOTH Red and White wine kits. It shows the range your kit should be in once the water has been added. 1.100 is not out of line for a RED wine kit but it is way out of line for a WHITE wine kit. That is WAY too much alcohol for a White wine unless your just trying to get your buzz on..........


----------



## geek

For me also 1.10 would be way too high for a white...


----------



## joeswine

geek said:


> Joe, how much you pay for those labels, I assume you order a 30ct. Where do you order from is it online and does it allow you to design it?



They are from fwt,you write on there design ,look at the Web site, ibglowin,you say the Same thing everytime ,to high ABV. For who? I like a wine with good alcohol content but with some other than good wines gone badt when it comes to whites my fpacs can carry the load ,you cleared your wine in two weeks wih the amount of solids in my batch it took a lot longer to take out the solids a much different tasting finish then yoursnot better but different


----------



## geek

Joe, what is "fwt"? Can you post the link.


----------



## joeswine

Fine wine toy store Georges place


----------



## geek

I see, so you're probably buying the MacDay labels at $12.99 for 30 labels, link here:

https://www.finevinewines.com/Z_ProdListMDLabelsA.asp


----------



## joeswine

*in the mix*

That's correct, I do about 50%of my wine labels from them 20% from noontime, and the balance basic Avery labels, also Google Spanish wine alcohol levels see what you see.


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

lets review the neibbiolo this ones completed.


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

more to the process, ask questions??????


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

*torrontes*.this is a wine crisp and minerally sem-dry with good fruit and medimun body lite straw to golden in color this is a siple wine with a great past.the onlt tweaks will be adding lemon zest to the secondary about ½ of a lemon enough to give the acidity a bite.


----------



## joeswine

*Torrents spanish white*

Time to show a few white wines, which of course is my favorite wines to make and to drink.TORRENTES is specially a delouse wine sometimes hard to clear when you use a fpac as I did but the deference is over whelming superb. Follow the flow...........CORRECTION THE CORRECT SPELLING FOR THIS KIT IS *TORRONTES*


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes continued*

FOLLOW THE FLOW.....


----------



## joeswine

*Black current desert wine*

this one turned out rich and smooth .I have a second kit waiting to be done ,follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Black current wine continued*

follow the flow........................


----------



## joeswine

*Black current wine continued final*

to the finish..............................


----------



## joeswine

*BLACK CURRENT PORT*: I ONCE MADE A BLACK CURRENT WINE WHICH I BOUGHT FROM *WALKERS* AND IT TURNED OUT BEYOND OUTSTANDING THAT WAS IN 2007 AND HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO PURCHASE IT SINCE .WHEN I SAW THIS KIT I JUST HAD TO HAVE IT.BLACKCURRANT IS DEEP, DARK AND BERRY RICH, MADE PROPERLY IN ANY VENUE, THE STEPS AREN'TCOMPLICATED, BUT NOT THAT STRAIGHT FORWARD EITHER WILL ADDITION OF , 2 PACKAGES OF EC1118,1 BOTTLE OF FERMENTATION JUICE (CONCENTRATED BULK.CURRENT),AND MEDIUM OAK IN THE PRIMARY ,ALSO 1’M GOING TO ADD CAPITALIZATION IN THE PRIMARY = to 1 quart of simple syrup RAISING THE TOTAL ABV. TO 1.15
THIS IS A CELLAR CRAFT KIT
6 WEEK AT 3.7 US GALS.

LET’S PLAY WITH OUR DRINK…AND
*THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX*

SECOND BATCH OF THIS LUSH DESERT WINE TURNING TO A PORT,WE CHANGED OUT THE YEAST TO YEAST 4767 LOOK AT THE DI-SCRIP.


 
Bottom of Form​


​Top of Form
 




*YEAST STRAIN: 4767 | Dry / Fortified™ *
Mild toast and vanilla nose. Mild fruit profile with balanced depth and complexity. Very dry finish. Dry red and white wines, add brandy for classic ports. Also used for big red wines and high sugar musts. 
*Origin:*
*Flocculation:* Medium-low
*Attenuation:* NA
*Temperature Range:* 60-90°F, 16-32°C
*Alcohol Tolerance:* 14% ABV


----------



## geek

Joe, we have to trade a bottle of the port some time in the future.
I never made that CC Black Currant. I have a MM La Bodega that has been bulk aging for over a year...


----------



## joeswine

*Black current desert wine*

GEEK, just finished the second bottling anytime your read.................


----------



## geek

Any older batch aged ?


----------



## joeswine

*Black current desert wine*

yes 1 year old...not bad.


----------



## geek

Sounds like a deal Joe, save a bottle aside and I'll let you know when my La Bodega, aged over 1 year old, is bottled and ready so we can trade..


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

this kit is without a doubt a winner in every way a desert port can be with a little work and planning it could be yours.................
​*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphate
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir.


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port continued*

follow the flow................what you don't see edited is that we capitalized the wine .The instant coffee went it to the secondary 1 full tablespoon. This then boosted up the _deep coffee flavor_ and added balanced to the alcohol and the tannins, after a short period on time a taste of chocolate starts to appear and ,what can I say WOW!


----------



## Tnuscan

joeswine said:


> follow the flow................what you don't see edited is that we capitalized the wine .The instant coffee went it to the secondary 1 full tablespoon. This then boosted up the _deep coffee flavor_ and added balanced to the alcohol and the tannins, after a short period on time a taste of chocolate starts to appear and ,what can I say WOW!



I'm going to make this one soon, I'm takin notes now. Hope it's as good as it sounds.


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

when your ready will do a swap, at a 375 bottle tasting ,when your ready.pm me your address.


----------



## geek

Since I do not drink coffee I have to ask a dumb question, does the coffee port really tastes like coffee?


----------



## joeswine

Yes but it can be mild or strong but in the end a delicious taste of chocolate.


----------



## Brian55

geek said:


> Since I do not drink coffee I have to ask a dumb question, does the coffee port really tastes like coffee?



The wife likes coffee, I prefer espresso. Either way, it doesn't taste like coffee, more like a sickly sweet port with a hint of coffee aroma and flavor. Maybe Joe's tweaks really help transform it into something special, but we made it by the book and don't really think much of it.


----------



## joeswine

Yes,you either tweak this kit out of it's mind,I have won 3 best of shows and at least 4 first place ribbons along the way,really. This truly a great kit to make even greater all's it takes is thinking outside the box! Really. JP


----------



## joeswine

*Hammonton wine contest*

IT'S THE TIME FOR COMPETITIONS IN THIS STATE AND I'M GOING TO ENTER ALL I CAN FINE,THESE ARE THE END RESULTS FROM THIS YEARS ENTRÉES, *HAMMONTON* IS A WELL RUN CONTEST BY THE *ROTARY CLUB* AND IT'S FIRST CLASS ALL THE WAY,_*11 , PRO JUDGES*_ AND THE REST THE PEOPLE WHO PAYED $40,PER SEAT AND FILLED THE 250 SEAT ROOM HAD A BLAST! _19 FLIGHTS_ AND 90 WINE ENTRÉES,EACH FLIGHT =1 TABLE...THIS IS *PEOPLE CHOICE AWARDS* , THEY ARE AWARDED BY THE PAID ATTENDANCES AS THEY BECOME THE JUDGES AND EVALUATED EACH FLIGHT.PETTY COOL NIGHT.THIS IS WHAT IT ALL THE WORK COMES DOWN TO ,MAKING A WINES THAT REACHES OUT TO A BROAD SPECTRUM OF TASTES AND STYLES THAT CAN RELATE TO MANY NOT JUST THE FEW OR THE ONE,GOOD WINE MAKERS LEARN AS THEY GO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND GROW , DIVERSITY IN WINE MAKING AND THINKING IS WHERE IT'S AT, MY THOUGHTS ,*WIN, LOSE OR DRAW I ALWAYS TRY TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.AND A BOVE ALL HAVE FUN..............*


----------



## joeswine

*Zinfandel pomegranate*

This is the zinfedal pomagranet island mist kit ,this kit has never failed to place win or show for me no matter where i send it. Follow the flow and learn how to make the fpac,it adds to the mouthfeel of this wine.


----------



## joeswine

*Zinfandel pomegranate continued*

MORE TO GO STAY AWAKEDON'T FORGET THE FPAC..............................................


----------



## joeswine

*Zinfandel pomegranate continued*

Order of Pictures for F-Pak:
1. Rinse Berries
2. Add to the pan
3. add juice
4. change color
5. add a lid for a few mins 
6. change colors and smoosh
7. more cooked down
8. finished f-pak
9. add to bag


----------



## joeswine

*australian shirza/ viognier*

I have found all of the *cru* blended kits to be fun to work with and very taste in the end follow the process on this one..


----------



## dcbrown73

Joe,

You say you capitalize your wines. Looking at the picture, I'm guessing that is some type of simple syrup and you're talking about adding sugar to your wines when you say that?


----------



## joeswine

*austrailian sharaz vignier continued*

DcBrown73,that is correct, follow the flow


----------



## wineforfun

@joeswine So it looks like you only make the Fontana into 5 gal.
The Cru and Island Mist pics show 6 gal.
Is this correct?


----------



## joeswine

*in the mix wineforfun*

THATS CORRECT ,WITH *FONTANA KITS* THE BODY AND ABV. ARE ALL BOOSTED WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT BY JUST REDUCING THE BASE VOLUME,THE ISLAND MIST KITS NEED TO STAY WHERE THEY ARE DO TO THE FACT THE FPACS THAT COME WITH THEM ARE HIGHLY CONCENTRATED YET THE ABV WHICH IS AROUND 1.08 CAN BE WEAKENED BY THE SWEETNESS OF THE FPACS.THAT'S WHY I BRING THEM UP TO 1.10.THE CRU KITS ARE AT THERE BEST JUST AS THEY ARE WITH A SMALL AMOUNT OF TWEAKING,ESPECIALLY THE BLENDED ONES.SO YOU SEE IN MY OPPION THEY ARE ALL WINE KITS BUT NEED TO TREATED DIFFERENTLY DO TO THEIR KIT STRUCTURE.GOT IT!


----------



## wineforfun

joeswine said:


> THATS CORRECT ,WITH *FONTANA KITS* THE BODY AND ABV. ARE ALL BOOSTED WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT BY JUST REDUCING THE BASE VOLUME,THE ISLAND MIST KITS NEED TO STAY WHERE THEY ARE DO TO THE FACT THE FPACS THAT COME WITH THEM ARE HIGHLY CONCENTRATED YET THE ABV WHICH IS AROUND 1.08 CAN BE WEAKENED BY THE SWEETNESS OF THE FPACS.THAT'S WHY I BRING THEM UP TO 1.10.THE CRU KITS ARE AT THERE BEST JUST AS THEY ARE WITH A SMALL AMOUNT OF TWEAKING,ESPECIALLY THE BLENDED ONES.SO YOU SEE IN MY OPPION THEY ARE ALL WINE KITS BUT NEED TO TREATED DIFFERENTLY DO TO THEIR KIT STRUCTURE.GOT IT!



Got it, thanks.


----------



## joeswine

*wineforfun*

spot on with the malbec, at the cost how could you go wrong, I mean really a great everyday wine at least I think so.. next time add a small fpac of red grapes to the primary that will take care of the body .


----------



## geek

Nice label Joe.


----------



## joeswine

*premium Fontana wine kit*

that was the labels that came with the kit and the wine maker was wineforfun, he sent it to me to try ,I sent him my amarone.do you follow the *thread cheap wine kits?* he's on there also one of 16 winemaker's making these kits.


----------



## geek

What kit was that?


----------



## joeswine

*in the mix*

See the title in the headers premium fantana wine kits


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz /viognier*

lets finish this wine I would do this again in a heart beat.


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red*

I have always like the blends that RQ,puts out in there restrictive quantities, this is one of them a blend of Tempranillo,Grenache & Cabernet blend, sound interesting I thought so ,so here we go, a few tweaks as always doesn't matter to me the cost of the kit I make it my own but still stay with in the frame work of the base ..follow my flow.


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red continued*

With me so far??????.... at his point we finished fermentation and placed the wine in a 6 gallon carboy the next phase is to degas and finalize,stay tuned.


----------



## geek

Joe,

That is La Batalla blend, did it really bring a dried skins pack?
The info on FVW says no grape pack.
Can you confirm it came with one?


----------



## joeswine

*in the mix*

Yes it did, nice touch.


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red*

vBulletin Message *Why do I get these ?????*
Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.​

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.​


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red*

Lets review this process befovBulletin MessageYour submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.​
re I move on, be patient.WH*AT IS THIS *


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red*

Lets review this one before we move on,


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red continued*

More to go be patient then will move on.


----------



## joeswine

*Torrents spanish white*

This is a white to have in your cellar bold and clean ,follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes the making of the kit*

Torrontés is a argentine white not a Spanish white my correction


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes Argentine white*

follow the balance of the flow....


----------



## geek

You made the Torrontes in 2014 Joe?
It must be pretty good!!


----------



## joeswine

Outstanding with a small green Grape fpac, good balance all the way.


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz /viognier*

this is a outstanding red blend to have in your cellar follow the flow............................


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz /viognier*

stage two...........


----------



## joeswine

*SHIRAZ /VIOGNIER continued*

Stage 3..............almost there.


----------



## joeswine

*green apple riesling*

_Some thing different comes this way,_ it's summer I just made a coconut pino grigio for my gal and she spotted the _green apple Riesling_ and gave me the look, you know the LOOK: SO I GOT IT AND THOUGHT about it for a second and said yes, we just have the first apples coming off the vine WHY NOT! So I made a apple fpac along with boosting the ABV. JUST A TAD, so here we go ,... first the fpac:


----------



## joeswine

*Green Apple Riesling continue*

Okay now that the FPAC is made  we need to take a look at the instructions there not standard, they have added yeast nutrient,omitted bentonite and the finish PAC goes in at the end before bottling. Also check out when your supposed to do these processes just a little different.


----------



## joeswine

*Green Apple Riesling continue*

just a few more steps to finish phase 1


----------



## geek

Your first Mosti Mondiale kit Joe?


----------



## joeswine

*green apple Riesling*

Not sure who made the kit _vintner_ design ,Tim Vandergrift from Winexperts crafted it,I've found there all pretty much alike actually,just some times something hits me a little differently,Ex; using yeast nutrient, I don't use it, not using bentonite in the beginning of the process, that's a staple element with me.But the base is the base and the process is the same and so I tweak on..the Apple fpac will be adjusted in the finial tasting proportionally I might not use it all................


----------



## geek

Ok, I thought it was a MM kit since I know their kits have a yeast nutrient.


----------



## wineforfun

Interesting, I thought you were getting the Fontana Green Apple Reisling. You and I may have to swap bottles when you are done. 

Mine had no nutrient with it, and added the bentonite after adding the juice. And like yours, add the fpac all at the end. I bumped mine up to 1.082 to start.
All I know is my wife loves the stuff. It ended up around 1.018 after adding the fpac. ABV is around 11%.


----------



## joeswine

*green apple Riesling*

From the top follow the flow......the fpac will make the difference, really,even though the flavor enhancer is added to the mix, I might just not need all of it.Yes when it's completed and ready for drinking we can always share .


----------



## joeswine

*green apple Riesling*

Hree's where we stand going into the secondary


----------



## joeswine

*Green Apple Riesling continue*

okay, here is where we are at present with this one it's starting to clear at this point need to add the chems and fpac then will stir well and let it settle out.mean will move on to another,,,,,,,,,.............


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

this one can out nice it needs time in the bottle but it will be a contender.


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

NOTHING LIKE BEING CREATIVE AND HAVING FUN WITH WINE MAKING....NOW WE ADD THE SPICES?


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

ready for the finish and contest next year ...


----------



## geek

I made that kit last year and just bottled recently, pretty good for a cheap kit..!!


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

sometimes it's not what you got it's how you use it.


----------



## joeswine

go back and review the last Nebbiolo before we move forward.


----------



## joeswine

*Green Apple Riesling continue*

LET ME SHOW YOU WERE IM AT WITH THIS ONE...


----------



## geek

Joe,

tell me you didn't include the turtle in the mix...


----------



## joeswine

... I was driving down a road in this retirement development I'm always in came around a bend in the road and there he was.He was coming from a stream and headed for the lake
across the road.I stop and help him across the street,if not he would have been. Hit .placed him over the wire fence and he was gone into the water.He was about 18 inches across and about 20inches long , weight about 10 lbs.and I just assumed it was a him.


----------



## Mismost

joeswine said:


> ... I was driving down a road in this retirement development I'm always in can around a bend in the read and there he was.H e was coming from a stream and headed for the iake across the board.I stop and help him across the street,if not he would have been. Hit .placed him over the wire fence and he was gone into the water.He wS about 18 inches across and about 20inches long , weight about 10 lbs.and I just assumed it was a him.



Joe...if you ever see a turtle moving AWAY from water and going uphill...you would be wise to follow him! Big water is coming soon! I've seen it three times and each time was followed by flood amount rainfalls. I don't know how they know. but they do.

Was hunting with an old German farmer once down along the river...he showed me grasshoppers that had climbed all the way to top of the tall Johnson grass. He said let's go, we did, four hour later that bottom was flooded. I pay attention to turtles and old men!


----------



## joeswine

*the turtle*

I'm sure he wanted to get to the other side of the road................


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

This one never fails to place show or win a first place and so far has won 3 best of shows so follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port continued*

Not much more left but holding this wine for at least a year is an excellent move
​*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir. 
.


----------



## joeswine

Sangiovese the prince of Italian wines, this thread is a long one so stay toned I'll do it in stages and it is perfect if I do say so myself


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

*Winexperts Sangiovese*​​Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kit from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase. 

*Next:*
Ok, today is 7 days from when we started this kit. We took our specific gravity reading and it is at 1.028. Slowly it's fermenting dry. 
I also put up a picture of what the bucket looks like right now. You can see there are some bubbles and oak chips floating on top. It smells great! Stay tuned- it will be going into the carboy for secondary fermentation soon.. 

*Next:*
Sorry this was so late getting posted. I had a few hectic weeks. I did manage to take the pictures to keep up with the process. Here we go- it’s getting interesting!

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen. Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out. 

*Next:*
Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation: 
There was a heavy body to it, medium tannins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged. 
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at. 
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alcohol content. 
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster. 

*Final step to our Sangiovese kit: Bottling!
*


Before we started, we got all the tools out of our toolbox that we would need. We also sanitized all our bottles and had them ready.
What we had ready before we started:
Sanitized Bottles
Funnel
Ferrari Bottle Filler
Long Stirring wand
seals
corks
Packets of Sorbate and K-Met that came with the kit
my bottle sealing tool (don't know what it's called but it holds the seal on top the bottle while I dip it into boiling water), notice we didn't filter, that's because we racked down to clear.

Next, we dumped the 2 packets of ingredients into the carboy and gave it a stir w/ the wand (I didn't take a picture of this, you all know how to just give it a stir.)

I then placed the Ferrari bottling tool on top of an empty bottle, put the larger hose into the carboy and applied suction to the smaller hose to start the syphon. Once the wine starts to flow I place this smaller hose into an empty bottle just so it's out of the way. 

What is great about this tool is that once a bottle is full it automatically stops the wine flow so that it doesn't overflow. You will see that it gets to a certain level in the little chamber and then it stops filling. When this happens you put the Ferrari tool into the next bottle and proceed. 

When you have all bottles filled, you cork them. Once they are corked you seal them.

Fit the seal over the bottle, I use a tool that holds the seal on top the bottle for me as I dip them into boiling water. I dip it in, give it one twist real quick and pull it out. (Literally takes 2 seconds and it's sealed.)


----------



## wyogal

Wow, thanks Joe! I just happen to have a Sangiovese kit in my root cellar, and this is great info. Some Q's though:

First, my kit comes with both oak and tannin. Is what you suggest adding with the raisins _in addition to_ what came in the kit?

Second, the nitrogen topper sounds like a great idea. I know I can Google this but hey, it's easier just to ask you: How do you find nitrogen gas in a delivery system to add to carboys?

Third, In the procedure _Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. _ To me that picture looks dry, as if you placed these ingredients into the carboy before racking the wine on top of it? Could you please elaborate?

Also great info on the view of the wine in the glass, but I cannot find the pictures. And thanks for the info on the Ferrari bottle filler--it looks like the answer to my prayers!

Last but not least, thank you for sharing your experiments and expertise!


----------



## joeswine

1)Add the raisins to the secondary along with the oak powder.
2)Nitrogen comes in a high pressure vessel added to the mix with a nitrogen regulator.
3) That was taken after the secondary was completed to show what you should see at the bottom.
4)Doing this kit my style takes a little more work and patients but it will all pay off in the end.
In most cases I'll take the long way around in the wine making process ,do to the small quantities we make at a time, it really isn't a problem to me and I've done so many that I just move through the process without thinking. Second nature.


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

contunuation of the flow.....


----------



## joeswine

It's been a while since I've post so lets review the Green Apple Riesling before I bottle, this wine has been under pressure and away from the elements and settling quite nicely, lets review>first is my fpac, then the process...follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*



*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​​
*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphate
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee {KEY TO BOOSTED TASTE}
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Liters/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphate Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 


After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir. 
 THIS KIT HAS TAKEN 6 BEST OF SHOW THE LAST TWO THIS YEAR AT *THE SOUTH JERSEY* *FOOD AND WINE FESTIVAL* AND NOW *CELLARMASTERS IN CALIFORNIA*,WITH JUST A FEW TWEAKS AND TIME IN THE BOTTLE IT'S A TESTED AND PROVEN WINNER,FOLLOW THE FLOW.


----------



## joeswine

Any body else have good results with this Wine


----------



## brewbush

Joe, I am surprised you don't rack with the AIO from the bucket and the splash rack adapter. It saves me time with degassing big time.

With regards to coffee port, one of the house favorites!!


----------



## joeswine

*tools in the tool box*

to answer all your questions= YES, I have all kinds of tools in my tool box but nice and easy also does it every time.
 the coffee port is without a doubt in my mind the best port for easy drinking ,smooth, good abv. great in balance with tannins and flavor ,it has shown itself to be a contender no matter what competition I enter it in ,I always know I'll win, place or show.


----------



## joeswine

*Pino /sauvignon blanc blend*

LETS START THIS FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE FINISHED PRODUCT.


----------



## marino

Nice! Joe, can you tell us why you put the lemon zest in secondary and not in the primary? And how long did you leave the zest in contact with the wine?


----------



## joeswine

the zest was added in the secondary because that's were the lemon extract will impart the most value,s sometimes when I tweak a kit and the tastes is a little flat then before I bottle I'll add the zest and allow it to sit and clear for a month or until I m ready to bottle.


----------



## marino

Thanks Joe! I'm going to start my 5L Pinot Grigio kit soon and am looking for extreme tweaks since this kit is so small and low on flavor, probably


----------



## joeswine

Always remember a good plan is the only way to go no matter what the cost of the kit.Stay the course and always *THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX*


----------



## DG2001

Hi Joe, I picked up a leftover WE LE15 Gewürztraminer Verdelho Muscat from my local shop highly discounted. I'm thinking about adding some golden raisins but not sure if I should or just make the kit by the book. Also any other suggestions for the kit.


----------



## joeswine

make sure the chemo aren't to old,if so replace the yeast with a champagne style one much better,1/2 cup golden raisins,you want you abv. To be at 12%,once that's completely do you test for pH .


----------



## DG2001

Thanks for the reply Joe!


----------



## joeswine

*thinking outside the box*

that one could turn out sweet is that what your aiming for ?


----------



## DG2001

I'm thinking I will add half the f pack up front. Id like it to finish slightly off dry. 1.000 to 1.002. You have any thought about that? I will be starting it this weekend.


----------



## joeswine

With this taste profile I would use the fpac as instructed however it is your kit .


----------



## geek

DG2001 said:


> I'm thinking I will add half the f pack up front. Id like it to finish slightly off dry. 1.000 to 1.002. You have any thought about that? I will be starting it this weekend.



I made 2 of that kit. The 2nd one I added 1/2 the f-pack up front and 1/2 to back sweeten, it ended at ~1.000 after adding the remainder of the f-pack.


----------



## DG2001

Geek, 
How sweet was the one you followed the directions on? Which one turned out better in your opinion?


----------



## geek

DG2001 said:


> Geek,
> How sweet was the one you followed the directions on? Which one turned out better in your opinion?



The first one ended at SG ~1.003 but my notes do not tell me if I added some of the f-pack up-front; however I usually add a little bit up-front.

I haven't tasted these wines in a while.


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

this one has been sitting and maturing follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

Just broke 150,000 views,and going strong,thanks


----------



## Mismost

We did a WE Nebbiolo using your tweaks...I have no idea how well it ages, but it was pretty good early on and now it's gone.


----------



## joeswine

Mine is still aging getting ready for competition next year.


----------



## joeswine

*Torrents the making of the kit*

from the judges prospective at the end,. This was actually the* Spanish ROJO Blanco*


----------



## joeswine

judges report almost made it? Once the judges no matter who they are or what they know put it in ink that's it you live with it .


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

that time again and the prince is on the floor, follow the flow...


----------



## dcbrown73

Hey @joeswine is your simple syrup a 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 ratio? (2 cups sugar to 1 cup water)

I've been using 1 to 1 as I hear the 2 to 1 is rather thick and harder to get mixed in, but the 1 to 1 adds more volume to the wine in essence diluting it.


----------



## joeswine

*Simple syrup a key tool*

Using a quart jar for measurements


----------



## dcbrown73

Thanks Joe!


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits*

1 gallon kits why bother?????BECAUSE they can become a blender to another kit ,think of the possibilities of combinations you at home can make with a little planning and some imagination.???? the last picture was add in error That's my coconut pino grigio


----------



## joeswine

*win ,place or show*

sometimes it's you need to figure a contest out this year at _*corrido's.*_ I entered my *coffee port* just to see how it would play out in a field of grape and juice makers, having to enter it as a _*KIT*_,I took a second place which is ok in it's self, so I think next year I'll enter my BIG REDS and see how they do but up next is HAMMONTON, I've got this one down.


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

This one is just going on two years old and tasting just fine this was my flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

just a few more to go ,if i had to do this again just a little more oak the balance was good,im going to enter this in a contest at the end of the month we'll see how it does.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

this ones aging nicely.....


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

more to the process, stay with me


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

just a little more to go/////
*SUPER TUSCAN Super Tuscanshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tignanello_BMK.jpg*

_Tignanello_ one of the early Super Tuscans.
Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as _vino da tavola_ - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]
The marchese Piero Antinori was one of the first to create a "Chianti-style" wine that ignored the DOC regulations, releasing a 1971 Sangiovese-Cabernet Sauvignon blend known as _Tignanello_ in 1978. Other producers followed suit and soon the prices for these Super Tuscans were consistently beating the prices of some of most well known Chianti. Rather than rely on name recognition of the Chianti region, the Super Tuscan producers sought to create a wine brand that would be recognizable on its own merits by consumers. By the late 1980s, the trend of creating high quality non-DOC wines had spread to other regions of Tuscany, as well as Piedmont and Veneto. Modification to the Chianti DOC regulation attempted to "correct" the issues of Super Tuscans, so that many of the original Super Tuscans would now qualify as standard DOC/G Chianti. Most producers have brought their Super Tuscans back under legal regulations, notably since the creation of the less restrictive IGT _Toscana_ designation in 1992 and the DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia designation in 1994.[6]
In addition to wines based on the Sangiovese grape, many well known Super Tuscans are based on a "Bordeaux-blend", meaning a combination of grapes typical for Bordeaux (esp. Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot). These grapes are not originally from the region, but imported and planted later. The climate in Tuscany has proven to be very good for these grapes. One of the first successful Super Tuscan based "Bordeaux-blend" was _Sassicaia_, by Tenuta San Guido, now classified as DOC Bolgheri.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet sauvignon rose'*

this ones a beauty and adding the fpac and changing out the yeast was a good move.this wine finished out with great taste and aroma,follow the flow...............


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet savuignon rose'*

THE FINISH PRODUCT
Tasting notes fresh strawberry on the nose, with watermelon and cranberry accents. This crisp, fragrant rose’ carries juicy strawberry flavors and tart red fruit notes on the palate.ballanced and refreshing with crisp acidity and a subtle minerality


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet sauvignon rose'*

finally got this one completed and would do it again follow the flow from the top to the finish...............


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet savuignon rose'*

Tasting notes fresh strawberry on the nose, with watermelon and cranberry accents. This crisp, fragrant rose’ carries juicy strawberry flavors and tart red fruit notes on the palate.ballanced and refreshing with crisp acidity and a subtle minerality
WOULD DO THIS ONE AGAIN…………………..


----------



## DG2001

If you made the kit again, would you use the same yeast or try something else?


----------



## joeswine

I would stay with a champagne style yeast,in my opinion the Rose's lend to a more champagne profile but still on there own,make sense?


----------



## geek

Joe, let's trade a bottle down the road [emoji4]


----------



## joeswine

Any time your ready.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet sauvignon rose'*

lets review and then will do something else


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet savuignon rose'*

Tasting notes fresh strawberry on the nose, with watermelon and cranberry accents. This crisp, fragrant rose’ carries juicy strawberry flavors and tart red fruit notes on the palate.ballanced and refreshing with crisp acidity and a subtle minerality
WOULD DO THIS ONE AGAIN…………………..


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah*

NEXT ON THE MENU..............LOOKIG GOOD,


----------



## joeswine

*spanish tempranillio*

this is a wine that i love when its done correctly,follow the flow...........


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

outstanding wine made with a middle grade wine kit won a *professional judges choice award* this year ,you can develop the depth and flavor you want it just takes a little planning and work. Think outside the box


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

just a little more to go.............


----------



## joeswine

*Neibbiolo continued*

the rewards can be nice without the cost, REALLY.


----------



## geek

Joe, the Nebbiolo is a dry wine, why did they write semi dry?

By the way, I made this kit when it used to be called Barolo and it's darn good being a cheapo wine kit.


----------



## joeswine

That's where the judges thought it should go and what it should go up against.not my call.This year I won 4 projudes awards all in the big red type wine's.


----------



## joeswine

Did you make yours the way I did?


----------



## geek

joeswine said:


> Did you make yours the way I did?




No, but it is good!!

I guess the judges made a mistake by saying that Nebbiolo is semi dry? [emoji4]

Anyhow, good wine kit for the price.


----------



## joeswine

When you enter as many contest as I have over the 20 years of doing this you come to understand judges have thermal own mindsets,but know matter how you cut it ,it held it's own against others and that a middle of the road kit can be a decent wine.


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish vino blanc*

this is a good wine to have in your cellar easy on the taste buds ,,good color and smooth.... Follow the flow.....


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish vino blanc*

continue the flow............


----------



## joeswine

*spanish vino blanco*

Here are the judges results....it's a very good white..


----------



## geek

Congrats Joe.


----------



## joeswine

*Torrents the making of the kit*

*Torrontés* is a white Argentine wine grape variety, producing 
*Torrontés*​*Grape (Vitis)*​http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Torrontes.JPG​*Color of berry skin*
Blanc
*Species*
_Vitis vinifera_
*Also called*
Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, Torrontés Mendocino, Torrontel, and other synonyms
*Notable regions*
Argentina

fresh, aromatic wines with moderate acidity, smooth texture and mouthfeel as well as distinctive peach and apricot aromas on the nose.[1] Three Torrontés varieties exist in Argentina: *Torrontés Riojano*, the most common, *Torrontés Sanjuanino*, and *Torrontés Mendocino*. It is primarily Torrontés Riojano that has received attention for the quality of its wines, and is the variety used for most Argentine wines simply labeled Torrontés.[2]
The three grapes are relatively similar but do have some noticeable differences. Torrontés Riojano and Torrontés Sanjuanino both tend to have large loose bunches of pale grapes while Torrontés Mendocino, however, has smaller, tighter bunches of darker yellow grapes. Torrontés Riojano is the most aromatic of the three, with aromas reminiscent of Muscat and Gewürtztraminer wines. The least aromatic, and least widely planted, is Torrontés Mendocino with the aromatics and plantings of Torrontés Sanjuanino falling in between.[3] All three Argentine Torrontés varieties belong to the _Criollas_ group of grape varieties, which is a term used for presumably American-born cultivars of the European grapevine _Vitis vinifera_.[4]
Around 8,700 hectares (21,000 acres) in Argentina have been planted with Torrontés Riojano, and 4,850 hectares (12,000 acres) with Torrontés Sanjuanino. Plantings in the very high altitudes (1700m+) of the Calchaquíes Valleys in the far north of Argentina have recently met with success. The vine is highly productive and is just under ten percent of all white grape plantings, however as a varietal, it made up almost 20 percent of all white wine sold in Argentina in 2008. The Salta region in northwest Argentina is particularly noted for its Torrontés as the grape thrives in cold dry, windswept conditions.
*History and relation to other grapes*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mission_grapes,_by_Hayward_&_Muzzall.jpg
DNA evidence suggest that the Mission grape _(seen here in a late 19th-century photo growing in California)_ is one of the parents of Torrontés.
Recent research using DNA profiling has shown that the different Torrontés are genetically closely related but distinct grape varieties, and that Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, and Torontel (also known as Moscatel Amarillo) are all separate crossings of Mission (originally reported as Criolla Chica) and Muscat of Alexandria.[5][6][7] Torrontés Mendocino was found to probably be a crossing of Muscat of Alexandria and another, so far unidentified grape variety.[8] While the Muscat-like qualities of the Torrontés varieties meant that a relationship to Muscat of Alexandria had been expected, the presence of Mission or Criolla Chica in the pedigree was unexpected to the researchers.[9]
For many years it was believed that the Torrontés of South America was the same variety as the Torrontés grape from Galicia in Spain, also known as Albillo Mayor. This widespread belief was due, in part, to the frequent migration waves of Galician workers that have immigrated to Argentina throughout its history.[2] Indeed, even wine expert Jancis Robinson, noted as much in her 1986 book on the world's grape varieties.[1] However, recent DNA evidence shows that there is probably no direct relationship between the Argentine and Spanish Torrontés varieties[10] and more recent editions of Robinson's wine books acknowledge the new findings.[2]
There is also a less common red wine grape called Torrontés, which is also known under the synonyms Tarrantes and Turrundos.[11]
*Wine regions[*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argentine_provinces_growing_Torrontes.jpg
The provinces of Argentina that grow the most Torrontés. Torrontés Riojano is most widely grown in La Rioja (red) and Salta (orange). Torrontés Sanjuanino is most widely grown in the San Juan province (yellow) while Torrontés Mendocino is most widely grown in the Rio Negro province (blue).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argentina_torrontes.jpg
An Argentinian Torrontés.
Torrontés is grown throughout Argentina and its acreage is steadily increasing. Part of its increase in numbers comes from the increase in Argentine wine exportation where the grape has found considerable success in the United States, United Kingdom and aboard but also from a better understanding and identification of the different Torrontés varieties that allow for better accounting of plantings. For most of its history (including into the late 20th century) Torrontés lagged behind Pedro Giménez and Ugni blanc among white grape varieties in Argentina.[2] But by the early 21st century, declining plantings in those two varieties and the growing popularity of Torrontés allowed it to surpass them and become Argentina's most widely planted white variety where it continued to be as of 2008.[4]
The different Torrontés varieties have developed niche in different areas of Argentina. Torrontés Riojano is widely grown in the La Rioja and Salta provinces of northern Argentina and is, in fact, the single most widely planted variety (both red and white) in La Rioja. In Salta, the grape is often planted in high altitude, sandy vineyards that are often more than 1,600 meters (5,200 feet) above sea level. Here, the harsh growing conditions allow the variety to attain high acidity and assertive flavors.[4]
In the arid San Juan province, Torrontés Sanjuanino is found but is planted to a much less significant amount than Torrontés Riojano. Torrontés Mendocino is, by far, the least widely planted variety and is mostly found in the southern province of Rio Negro.[2]
*Outside of Argentina[*
Torrontés is grown in Chile, however, the exact number of plantings (and of which variety) are not completely known. In 1996, Jancis Robinson noted that there were several hundred hectares of _Torontel_ grown but some of these plantings may actually be the Galician variety. Additionally, Torrontés is known in Chile often under the synonym _Moscatel de Austria_ (believed to be Torrontés Sanjuanino).[2]
According to wine expert Oz Clarke, most plantings of Torrontés in Chile is Torrontés Riojano and the grape is primarily used in the production of Chilean brandy wine known as _pisco_.[3]
*Spanish Torrontés[edit]*
While DNA evidence shows that there is probably no relationship between the Galician variety of Torrontés and the South American variety, consumers may still see Spanish wine labeled as Torrontés from the Galician wine region of Ribeiro as well as other _Denominación de Origens_ in such as the Gran Canaria of the Canary Islands (most likely the Terrantez variety of Madeira[4]), Montilla-Moriles and Madrid.[3]
*Wine style[*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cafayate_vineyard.jpg
Torrontés growing in the Cafayate vineyard of the Salta province.
According to wine expert Jancis Robinson, Torrontés has the capability of producing wines of high quality, but its success is dependent on the skill and care of the winemaking process, particularly in maintaining suitable acid levels to balance the wine. At its most ideal, Robinson notes, Torrontés are _"wines for early drinking that are not too heavy, are high in acidity, and are intriguingly aromatic in a way reminiscent of but not identical to Muscat."_[2] But poorer made examples can come across as bitter and excessively alcoholic.[4]
Wine expert Oz Clarke, also notes the dependency on careful vinification for the quality of Torrontés but also notes that the size of the harvest yield can also play a substantial role. While the aroma of Torrontés is often associated with Muscat, Clarke notes that many examples can be very similar to Gewürztraminer with subtle spice notes mixed with the floral bouquet of the wine. Clarke also notes that the wine tends not to age very well and is often consumed within a year of its vintage date.[3]


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah*

looks like a fun kit lots of moving parts,this is a long flow so read your directions before you start....


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah continued*

so far so good notice i only added 1 gallon of water to the mix to reach the mark and how the grape skins increased the volume just a little.....


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah continued*

day 2, gently punch down the cap,gently..


----------



## Mismost

Joe...what is your reasoning for just sprinkling the yeast on the top and not stirring?

I started making beer first, then wine. The instructions on the yeast package say re-hydrate, so I do. Besides, Grand Mother always "proofed" her yeast when making bread. Just curious!

Thanks.


----------



## joeswine

The yeast has full surface contact with the base wine, plenty of oxygen to spark life all the while their feet are soaking up the base to spark groth, never falls
. keep it fresh and simple.It works for me.


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah*

lets rerun the process before we move on ....


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah continued*

follow the flow this looks so far as a go investment....................follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Grenache /syrah continued to the finish*

where at the finish line corks,seals and the finial touch labels..


----------



## joeswine

*Eclipse riesling*

NEEDED TO REPLENISH MY BASIC STOCK OF RIESLINGS..FOLLOW THE FLOW......


----------



## joeswine

*Eclipse riesling*

THREE WEEKS IN THE FRIG READY TO BRING UP TO ROOM TEMPERATURE AND BOTTLE.....


----------



## geek

Let me know how’s the Riesling for you.
I made it last year and it was just meh for me...personally I wouldn’t make it again.


----------



## joeswine

Did you use the grapefruit zesty ? The main reason I made this was to give away to my customers and to replenish my white wine stock. A bottle of wine as a thank you good a long way and most of them do remember and ask are you still making wine which takes their minds off the bill in writing them for the service call


----------



## geek

I made it by the book.
Nice how you take care of your customers.


----------



## joeswine

JUST TRING THE NEW FORUM OUT BEFORE WE START AGAIN..


----------



## joeswine

Can someone give me a step by step on how to place pics on this form I'm completely lost, completely can you pm me , wherever that is ,if I can't post pics the way that I do I'll move on.


----------



## geek

Joe, are you using a mobile device on normal computer?
When using a PC, we just use the 'Upload a File' button, it is below


----------



## ibglowin

Joe, just click on the "Upload a File" box in the lower right corner. Navigate to the the photos you want to upload on your computer. Select the photos you want to upload (you can upload more than one at a time). Once the photos are uploaded you have the option of viewing them as a small thumbnail or a full size photo. Your photos can't be larger than 1MB or they will not upload so if you get an error message on the upload the picture(s) are too big. You will have to make them smaller in order to upload them.







joeswine said:


> Can someone give me a step by step on how to place pics on this form I'm completely lost, completely can you pm me , wherever that is ,if I can't post pics the way that I do I'll move on.


----------



## joeswine

will try posting, now my file comes up then I click on the pic I want to upload ( just 1 pic like I always did) it goes through its download and tells me the files to large I'm just trying to down load 1 pic,what am I doing incorrectly, at least this time my actual files I'm use too see came up.


----------



## geek

What is the file size Joe?
There was a limit of 1 MB per file but I think the Admin increased to 4MB.


----------



## joeswine

GEEK,,,,,,I only tried to load 1 picture ? should that make that great of a difference??? off my PC


----------



## geek

Well, one picture could be well within the 4MB limit here on this site.
On your computer, right click the picture file and then click Properties, it should give you info on how many KB or MB the file is.


----------



## joeswine

pic size is 4,04mb,disk size is 4.05 type file is jpg, what do you think...GEEK


----------



## cmason1957

joeswine said:


> pic size is 4,04mb,disk size is 4.05 type file is jpg, what do you think...GEEK


I think it won't upload, 4.04mb is over the size limit.


----------



## geek

the picture file size is over the 4MB limit on this site.
When you take the pictures, maybe you want to consider taking them in a little lower resolution.


----------



## joeswine

lets try this..............


----------



## joeswine

will try again see what happens


----------



## joeswine

just testing this out.. disregard these


----------



## joeswine

THIS KIT WAS APART OF TOM'S TRILOGY..................PINO GRIS WITH GRAPEFRUIT ZEST


----------



## joeswine

BALANCE OFFLOW TO FOLLOW.................ADDING GRAPEFRUIT ZEST ADDS BITE OR BRIGHTNESS TO THE FINISH...


----------



## joeswine

WE WILL START TO BOTTLE TOMORROW....ALL THREE


----------



## joeswine

this white is a great combination of smooth and grisp...follow the flow on this one.......


----------



## joeswine

Semillon SAUVIGNON CONTINUED


----------



## joeswine

STILL NOT DONE YET BUT ALMOST...............


----------



## joeswine

BLACK CURRENT DESERT WINE THIS WILL BE MY SECOND BATCH OF THIS ONE IT'S SPOT ON AND WITH A FEW MINER TWEAKS IS DELOUSE


----------



## joeswine

THIS IS A LONG ONE DON'T GET BORED.....


----------



## joeswine

FOLLOW THE FLOW THERE'S A LOT TO THIS ONE ,BUT IT'S WORTH THE READ...


----------



## joeswine

OKAY JUST A LITTLE MORE THE PROCESS IS NOT AS IT USE TO BE ...ROUGHTLY 39 STEPS TO THIS PROCESS IF YOU TAKE YOUR TIME THE OUT COME WILL BE WORTH THE EFFORT..


----------



## Elizajean

Just starting this thread, but also read this last page....more exciting than the first page, but will now go back. Quick question.....rack splashing, is it to help with degassing? I'm always careful not to splash, but have a lot of work degassing. I was wondering if there is a correlation. Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

Elizajean,YES it helps a lot to degasing, if you noticed I was using an all in one vacumepump..i have also done most of the wines you've listed except the blueberry mist.There is a lot to view on this thread if you don't find what your looking for just ask.jp


----------



## Elizajean

Read the whole thread, as well as Tweakng Cheap Kits. Whew! Now to plan my next batches. Will be back, thanks!


----------



## joeswine

yes there is a lot of info on both those threaded isn't there..that's for taking the time to read them..jp


----------



## Elizajean

View attachment 45165
These arrived today from FVW. These are MM, Summer Breeze preach Chardonnay and wild berry white Zin, $64, I selected them because they show as a 3 on the sweetness scale and I do not like sweet wines, but do enjoy a lighter alcohol slightly sweet wine chilled to drink on hot summer evenings while grilling and sitting around a fire. Made the WE Island Mist, only slightly sweet (2/3 fpak upfront) and was pleasantly surprised at how enjoyable this type of wine can be! So....which thread, thus or Tweaking Cheapies, should I be using for this journey? By the way, lived in Waterford my senior year and college (Glassboro) years.


----------



## joeswine

Tweaking cheap wine kits with the addition of a each fpac( fresh) see making a fpac for directions. If you can find fresh peaches at this point in time it works out just fine I've made this kit. I LL post it for you


----------



## joeswine

peachy island mist kit.


----------



## joeswine

peachy breeze kit


----------



## joeswine

balance to follow....great taste in the end not over powering.


----------



## Elizajean

joeswine said:


> balance to follow....great taste in the end not over powering.


Thanks! So, here's what I've gathered for my Peach Chardonnay, so far. Peach fpack (no fresh peaches, but I could use high quality frozen), I do not want to increase ABV as I like these wines "drinkable" on hot summer days. Make five, instead iof six gallons. Put provided fpak in secondary where it will continue to ferment and reduce overall sweetness. Am I on track, so far?


----------



## geek

For 'cheapo' kits, like the one you mentioned, the fpack is the heart and flavor profile for the final product, so you don't add it to let it ferment (unless you add some of it in primary).

Fpack is added at the end when fermentation is done and once you're in the clearing stage.


----------



## Elizajean

geek said:


> For 'cheapo' kits, like the one you mentioned, the fpack is the heart and flavor profile for the final product, so you don't add it to let it ferment (unless you add some of it in primary).
> 
> Fpack is added at the end when fermentation is done and once you're in the clearing stage.


Varis, I was summarizing Joe's slides which had him adding the fpack in the secondary. I understand they are usually added at the end. Just trying to understand his tweaks.


----------



## joeswine

Sometime do to the nature of the fpac in this case fresh peaches (that I made) the pectin level haze will be heavy and take longer than normal to clear.Taken that in to account from using fresh fruit in the past that's why in this instance it was better for me.Adding their fpac just shortened the process profile it didn't make any difference in the end to the finished product.


----------



## joeswine

lets start off this New year with a Nebbiolo. Cousin to Sangiovese. This kit is getting more rounded by the day so follow the flow....


----------



## joeswine

Nebbiolo continued....follow the flow a great wine to have in your stock. There are 181,579 views at present..


----------



## joeswine

Haven't been around the basements been just a little to cold for this old guy my *Cabernet Sauvignon* is getting really special so lets review my flow ..


----------



## joeswine

when I made my fpac I made sure all the fruit was fresh and it taste like summer..


----------



## joeswine

OK LETS SEE HOW FAR I CAN GET WITH THE AMARONE PROCESS..FOLLOW THE FLOW..THIS IS A WINNER


----------



## joeswine

PHASE 2...............


----------



## joeswine

BALANCE OF PHASE 2..WILL POST LATER


----------



## joeswine

FINALLY THE MUSTO WINE GRAPE CONTEST RIBBIONS ARE IN THIS CONTEST WAS STRICKLY FOR GRAPE AND JUICE MAKERS BUT THEY LET A FEW OF US SLIP IN ,I THINK .ANYWAY THESE WERE THE RESULTS..COFFEE PORT TOOK SILVER 1 POINT AWAY FROM GOLD,NEBBIOLA,FIRST TIME IN CONTEST TOOK A SILVER....IT TOOK QUITE A WHILE TO GET THE RESULTS THEN THE METALS.... I'M GOING TO ENTER THE COFFEE PORT IN THE WINEMAKERS MAG. CONTEST THEN THAT WILL BE THE LAST TIME FOR THIS ONE TO BE ENTERRED..IT'S BEEN A REAL WINNER.


----------



## joeswine

this is one of my favorite blend shiraz /viognier..crisp and fruity.....


----------



## joeswine

phase two shiraz/viognier.


----------



## joeswine

final phase...........let it rest when done for at least 8 mos. then have a party


----------



## joeswine

Coffee port one of the most well liked on the wine competition circuit for me ,that is after a short time in slumber this soft port desert style wine starts to take a deep chocolate note it's amazing the reaction the coffee has when combined with this kit follow the flow simple to do and taste GREAT>THIS IS FOR JGMANN67.......................


----------



## joeswine

COFFEE PORT PHASE 2' FOLLOW THE FLOW


----------



## jgmann67

Some questions:

When do you add instant coffee? 

What ABV do you usually end up with?

Have you added ever clear or brandy to increase ABV into the 18% range?


----------



## heatherd

jgmann67 said:


> Some questions:
> 
> When do you add instant coffee?
> 
> What ABV do you usually end up with?
> 
> Have you added ever clear or brandy to increase ABV into the 18% range?


@jgmann67 I typically add the instant coffee/espresso powder during fermentation. ABV is 16-18% after fortification. Some folks use everclear but I use brandy.


----------



## joeswine

Add the coffee to the primary reason its partnership with the wine is better,1 quart simple syrup primary. I be never added anything else ABV around 18% if you can let it set bottled for a year then enjoy. Coffee in primary 1 full tablespoon.thats all.less is More


----------



## joeswine

VIOGNIER ROUSSANNE MARSANNE OR AS I'LL CALL IT THE FRENCH TRIOLGY,I WANTED TO KEEP IT SIMPLE SO THAT IT COULD ACTUALLY SAVOR THE TAST I ENOY BLENDED WINE .THIS TIME I MIX TWO DIFFERENT YEAST EC1118 AND D47 THE TEMP DROPPED IN THE BASEMENT AND I WANTED TOO GET THIS ONE STARTED THE EC1118 SHOULD TAKE CARE OF THAT AND PROVIDE BALANCE WHILE THE D47N WILL ADD COMPLEXITY TO THE VIOGNIER WHICH I FEEL IS THE MAIN PLAYER OF THIS ONE ,WE'LL SEE FOLLOW THE FLOW..


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #2 FRENCH TRILOGY


----------



## joeswine

UP DATE ....READY TO MOVE ...


----------



## joeswine

PHASE 2.......................


----------



## joeswine

READY TO MOVE............................SO FAR SO GOOD..AS I STATED BEFORE I THINK BLENDS ARE A VERY CREATIVE WAY OF MAKING WINE ENJOY..


----------



## joeswine

time to add the fpac and clearing agent....then will let it sit ..


----------



## joeswine

NIBBIOLO SPICY HERRY,CRANBERRY AND DRIED FRUIT........FOLLOW THE FLLOW....NICE FINISH TO THIS ONE...BE PATIENT ..


----------



## joeswine

NIBBIOLO.........PHASE 2.........................


----------



## joeswine

NIBBIOLO...PHASE 3... WITH THESE KITS YOU NEED TO READ AND PLAN OUT YOUR WORK,,YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN SOMETHING WILL INTERRUPED THE FLOW.


----------



## Mismost

I have made that very kit, very similar to how you did it. EXCEPT....I added a whole quart of simple syrup and way overshot my SG. I saw the PICTURE of the quart jar, should have read your instructions better...my bad. Even so, this is still one of our favorite wines! Wife actually like the ABV punch and sweetness....nice cool evening wine.


----------



## joeswine

Good to have your feedback as always just finishing a Rj golden series Tranpanello nice kit I enjoy Spanish Wine's.


----------



## joeswine

HOW ABOUT A NICE MED, BODY RED IN A SANGINOVESE......THERE'S A LOT TO THIS ONE..


----------



## joeswine

ROUND 2 LIKE I STATED LOTS TO THIS ONE BUT GOOD AT THE FINISH..


----------



## joeswine

ROUND 3.............................LOTS TO DO..................THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT WINE MAKING..


----------



## joeswine

LETS SKIP TO THE END......................................................


----------



## joeswine

lets do *SUPER TUSCAN* WITH ALL THE* TRIMMINGS*....FOLLOW THE FLOW..


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #2


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #3.................WITH ME SO FAR/??/


----------



## joeswine

OK THEY WOUNT LET ME UPLOAD THE BALANCE SO WE'LL GO A DIFFERET ROUT.


----------



## joeswine

this one is great anytime of the day and I have won many a best of show tweaks this and my small tweaks.


----------



## joeswine

coffee port continued.....the longer it sits the more chocolate nonce it picks up.


----------



## joeswine

last stop..if you can let it sit for one year I do it in the bottle...


----------



## joeswine

this year my marshmallow port took first place in Hammonton I wanted to show you my plan,,,PHASE!


----------



## joeswine

PHASE 2>..........stay the course....


----------



## joeswine

PHASE 3.............................. this has now taken the place of my* coffee port* of which I've took 5 best of shows, this is the first for this one. And it's warm and tasty.


----------



## joeswine

save the best for last


----------



## sour_grapes

Congrats, Joe!


----------



## WineenthusiastLover

Here you can find informations about "Does wine go bad"

https://topwinecooler.com/does-wine-go-bad-wine-saver-buying-guide/


----------



## joeswine

Are you for real?


----------



## cmason1957

joeswine said:


> Are you for real?


I am hoping he just misunderstood the title of this topic.


----------



## WineenthusiastLover

Sorry, if my post was off the topic. Yes cmason - I misunderstood the title of this topic.


----------



## Johnd

Pretty easy to misunderstand, lots of spelling errors and grammatical mistakes in this thread. I thought the response to be rather comical......


----------



## joeswine

I take it you read it no matter how I'll composed it is.
Maybe the others who have also read this thread have gotten a little more out of it than youself. Just maybe.


----------



## Johnd

LOL!! Not so much....


----------



## Lwrightjs

So I've got 2 one gallon kits that I'd like to fix. I tweaked them in the beginning according to the "tweaking cheap kits" thread, but because they were 1 gallon, I didn't reduce the volume and they seem to be lacking texture and a little body. They've been in secondary for a few weeks now. OG was 1.090 (but the currants in primary probably bumped up the ABV, which is fine).
The kits were Cabernet and Merlot. Is there anything I can do now to help increase the body and texture? I added a quarter cup of med toast french oak chips to each last night.
They have both have a nice fruity taste, but a little thin and not very complex. 

Oh, and my original tweak was a quarter cup of currants in each (during primary) , with 6 Oz of Blackberries in the merlot.


----------



## joeswine

The base is what it is, I've made 2 kits straight up and then blended them with different bases.
What you can work with is a good Grady glycerin .
What was your plan for the kits?


----------



## Lwrightjs

My plan was to create a decent table wine while the good stuff ages.
I just like wine to taste good.

I have thought about blending these but I wanted to see if I could salvage them separately first. 

What do you mean by glycerin?


----------



## joeswine

Text wine making a glicerin, it's used as a thicking agent, I've used it in the passed,it does work


----------



## Johnd

Lwrightjs said:


> What do you mean by glycerin?



Here’s a link to the product:

https://eckraus.com/glycerine-99-5/


----------



## Lwrightjs

What about adding more currants? Will that add more texture?


----------



## joeswine

Some, it's all the base wine, try simmering currents in wine to start with.that will add structure.1cup of current 2 cups of wine.


----------



## Lwrightjs

That many currants for a 1 gallon kit?


----------



## joeswine

You need to use your judgement 1/2 cup the wines in front of you.
There's only so much you can do with this volume of wine.


----------



## Lwrightjs

Yeah that makes sense. I'll try and see. I'll add a little currant and some glycerin and let you know how it goes. Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

Thinking outside the box is the only way to make wine all wine makers do it ,so can a home wine maker.
But sometimes limited are limits and less is more.
Please keep us posted.


----------



## jgmann67

Trying a little experiment with my moderately cloudy rose... filled and corked a 750 ml bottle and placed it in the fridge. Will leave it for a week or so and see whether a little cold crash is what the doctor ordered. If there’s no change, I’m going to rack the carboy and drop in some pectic enzyme.


----------



## joeswine

you could always try cold fermentation , if you have room in a frig, place the wine in the bottom and let it sit for a couple of weeks ,that does really help.


----------



## geek

I assume you meant cold stabilization.


----------



## joeswine

Yes thanks, sometimes I think faster than my thumbc type or brain can handle ( old people).


----------



## Lwrightjs

joeswine said:


> you could always try cold fermentation , if you have room in a frig, place the wine in the bottom and let it sit for a couple of weeks ,that does really help.


But then where do you put all of your uneaten leftovers?


----------



## joeswine

Rack down, to 3gallon carboys


----------



## joeswine

this is one of my favorite wines, Sanginovese with a twist, it's smooth, good body, fruit front end and a great finish if I do say so..


----------



## joeswine

white wines are my favorite ,like this one..


----------



## joeswine

balance to follow...........................there also very easy to tweak..


----------



## joeswine

just a little more......................


----------



## joeswine

this is a fun wine and one I've won many a pro -judges award and peoples choice awards..


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #2....................................easy to follow and with a years time in the bottle it's a real award winner..


----------



## joeswine

hoe about something sweet a peach bellini


----------



## Johnd

joeswine said:


> hoe about something sweet a peach bellini


----------



## geek

Johnd said:


> View attachment 59530



I'd take that 'peach bellini' anytime in the year.


----------



## joeswine

Something good comes are way.....Spanish wines are a BIG favorite of mine. 
PHASE#1


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2 the flavor is deep and rich the finish is smooth fruit upfront tannins to the middle nice on the way down.


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese* with* raisins* what they do is add a subtle background and a very smooth finish.
PHASE#1


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#3


----------



## DizzyIzzy

joeswine said:


> PHASE#3


Two questions Joe. #1 Is that the recommended headspace? #2 What is the nitrogen for, and is it necessary? I enjoyed seeing your step-by-step process. I have never tasted Sangiovese. How would you describe it?


----------



## joeswine

*Headspace* is just that room at the top of the container, in that case less is more, if you follow what i do I either always rack into a larger container right after primary to allow the gases to work themselves out.
Once that's done and if I chose to rack down the I fill the empty space with the nitrogen gas as a filler and monitor the bubbler for* pressure* daily.

Sanginovese. red currant, raspberry and white pepper it's all subjective t ones taste. It's considered the_ Prince _of Italian wines and one of my favorite.
The last one I did I added raspberries and it was outstanding .


----------



## joeswine

how about something from SPAIN...


----------



## joeswine

SPAIN PHASEE#2


----------



## joeswine

NEBBIOLO smooth with good body...


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #2.............................


----------



## Mismost

Joe.... I figure you are in the know, what are the cheap wine kits now days? Amazon Fontana are no longer Prime free shipping so they are up around 80 bucks from 42 now 

I've made the Nebiolo twice, good choice, used your tweaks and made it better.


----------



## joeswine

Everything is going up in price , everything, be ready for kit shortages.


----------



## joeswine

FIERO wine kit moving right along..............follow the flow very simple and straight forward.


----------



## joeswine

FIERO .....balance of process.. this wine was designed for the high end of wine making ,dark and good body even has a nose ? 
*with the base and the fpac were at the 6 gallon mark. *
they may cost more *or not *and you think your getting less but it all works out in the end at lease I think so.


----------



## my wine

Hi Joe. I'm new to the forum and this thread is fantastic. I'm still reading 2012 posts but have a wine situation that I needed to jump ahead for anyone to help me with.

A few months ago, I got a WE Trinity Red kit. Opened the box late night on a Sunday and got it started per the step-by-step instructions. This was my 5th kit and had no issues with the previous 4. Got to the starting SG and it read 1.045. That's not what I was supposed to get so I stirred, measured, remeasured, rewashed the Hydrometer, checked for breakage, measured again ... 1.045. Not knowing any better, I pressed ahead and added the yeast. The next day I called my vendor and got that ball started on the guarantee. And that ball is still rolling but I'll get a replacement kit in a couple weeks.

2 weeks later, SG was 0.995. So it was done fermenting, racked it, cleared and settled it and it's been aging a month now. I estimate the ABV to be 6.75%. I tasted it and it's too strong for breakfast juice but too weak for wine. So I'm thinking of 2 possible ways to go to get to an ABV of 10% to 11% which is acceptable to me.

Option 1. Bring it up to ABV 10.25% by adding brandy. To do so, I need to add half a litter of brandy to 3.5 litters of weak wine. A nice fit in a 4 litter glass jug. I taste tested a half oz of brandy with 3.5 oz of wine and it was decent and a little harsh. I would pull 3 litters of weak wine from the carboy leaving about 16 to 17 liters of wine. Then add 1.75 litters of Christian Bros 80 proof brandy (1 large bottle), wait a couple of days and taste. Then be ready to add more brandy to taste, then top with weak wine or sugar water or both. Biggest concern with this would be wine flavor lost by brandy dilution and brandy flavor.

Option 2. I'm supposed to get a replacement Trinity Red kit next Friday. So, I could amp up the potential ABV by adding sugar before adding yeast. Shoot for 15% or 16% ABV then mix the two batches for a possible ABV of 11%.

What do you think? Is one method more likely to succeed than the other? Could I improve either or both options. Is there a 3rd approach I should consider? I'm definitely outside of my box with this but perhaps someone has been here before.


----------



## joeswine

Will get back to you later


----------



## joeswine

First of all welcome to the club.
Have you ever heard are the one gallon wine kits if so I would buy one kit , make it an add it to the wine that we're talkin about that should bring it up to par don't do anything else.
As far as the next kit coming through have you taken a look at the base profile and if so what does it tell you? 

For the new kit coming through if a cup raisins and 16 oz of blackberries sauteed down with two cups of the base wine. yeast to rc212 and the package ec-1118 add all this into the primary try it you'll make a superb wine
That's what I would do. Now it's up to you.


----------



## Ajmassa

my wine said:


> Hi Joe. I'm new to the forum and this thread is fantastic. I'm still reading 2012 posts but have a wine situation that I needed to jump ahead for anyone to help me with.
> 
> A few months ago, I got a WE Trinity Red kit. Opened the box late night on a Sunday and got it started per the step-by-step instructions. This was my 5th kit and had no issues with the previous 4. Got to the starting SG and it read 1.045. That's not what I was supposed to get so I stirred, measured, remeasured, rewashed the Hydrometer, checked for breakage, measured again ... 1.045. Not knowing any better, I pressed ahead and added the yeast. The next day I called my vendor and got that ball started on the guarantee. And that ball is still rolling but I'll get a replacement kit in a couple weeks.
> 
> 2 weeks later, SG was 0.995. So it was done fermenting, racked it, cleared and settled it and it's been aging a month now. I estimate the ABV to be 6.75%. I tasted it and it's too strong for breakfast juice but too weak for wine. So I'm thinking of 2 possible ways to go to get to an ABV of 10% to 11% which is acceptable to me.
> 
> Option 1. Bring it up to ABV 10.25% by adding brandy. To do so, I need to add half a litter of brandy to 3.5 litters of weak wine. A nice fit in a 4 litter glass jug. I taste tested a half oz of brandy with 3.5 oz of wine and it was decent and a little harsh. I would pull 3 litters of weak wine from the carboy leaving about 16 to 17 liters of wine. Then add 1.75 litters of Christian Bros 80 proof brandy (1 large bottle), wait a couple of days and taste. Then be ready to add more brandy to taste, then top with weak wine or sugar water or both. Biggest concern with this would be wine flavor lost by brandy dilution and brandy flavor.
> 
> Option 2. I'm supposed to get a replacement Trinity Red kit next Friday. So, I could amp up the potential ABV by adding sugar before adding yeast. Shoot for 15% or 16% ABV then mix the two batches for a possible ABV of 11%.
> 
> What do you think? Is one method more likely to succeed than the other? Could I improve either or both options. Is there a 3rd approach I should consider? I'm definitely outside of my box with this but perhaps someone has been here before.


Since it’s only at 6%abv it won’t prevent yeast from working and you could add yet another option. Figure out how much sugar is needed for you desired %. Mix it in. Add a strong yeast EC-1118 and ferment I again. Possibly tossing in a Joe tweak or 2 for more flavor. This would prevent trying to overcompensate on that new kit- adding tweaks but not messing with the abv.


----------



## sour_grapes

That is amazingly far off on the initial SG!

I would not throw good money after bad; that is, I would not try to rescue this kit by combining with the new one.

The first batch will be subpar, but you are playing with house money! I would follow AJ's advice above.


----------



## my wine

Ok, 2 new options, and both let me avoid using the new kit. I'll check out what is needed to produce a 1 gallon kit. I have everything I need for 6 gallon kits. I imagine I'll need some smaller containers at least. 

I'll also look into sugar and yeast. Then I can decide which way to go. I guess I should look into brandy drinks since I won't be needing it anymore.

Now I look forward to that new kit. "... a cup raisins and 16 oz of blackberries sauteed down with two cups of the base wine." Thank you Chef Joe!


----------



## joeswine

It's not throwing good money  after bad, it's ( when good wines gone bad) moment.
I'm talking about taking a one gallon spot on kit with flavor and extract adv. And add it to a kit to revive it not turn it into something that will never be correct .
Sometimes in wine making you need to think outside the box ,, in this case you need to think inside the box, it will work.


----------



## my wine

So you would take the concentrate (1.7 liters) from a 1 gallon kit, put that in a 7 gallon bucket, add the weak wine to fill the bucket, then the yeast, etc.? And I would adjust the batch to get an initial SG that gets me a 12% ABV wine. Is that your suggested approach?


----------



## joeswine

sort of,, only keep in mind your target *ABV* as your adding the *older wine* to the *new mix once its completed* ,got it, not reversed ,got it.,this way you should be keeping a decent balance between flavor and alcohol. or as best you can and still have a decent wine in the end.
At least that's what I would do., 
_two wines completed and blended together. with the balance do what you want._


----------



## my wine

Thanks Joe. Off to do more research and make a plan!


----------



## joeswine

Always have a plan or as I say plan your work then work your plan.


----------



## Rocky

Quoting @sour_grapes, "I would not throw good money after bad; that is, I would not try to rescue this kit by combining with the new one." I tend to agree with this. Doing so reminds me of the story of the Jewish lady who had two chickens and one got sick so she killed the healthy one to make chicken soup for the sick one.


----------



## Ajmassa

Rocky said:


> Quoting @sour_grapes, "I would not throw good money after bad; that is, I would not try to rescue this kit by combining with the new one." I tend to agree with this. Doing so reminds me of the story of the Jewish lady who had two chickens and one got sick so she killed the healthy one to make chicken soup for the sick one.


If it is possible then can be quite simple (And really should have been been done initially)- which is simply adding desired sugar and fermenting again. First need to make sure it’s kosher.
Because If the kit’s chemical packets have been added, the potassium metabisulphite & potassium sorbate to stabilize the wine, roughly 2 weeks ago, then I’m not sure. maybe another knowledgeable member can chime in to explain if this option would still viable or not.


----------



## joeswine

It's not to much different from blending wines, it's done all the time , wineries add fillers to a standard base to expand the volume same principal you just need to control the process nothing more.
And if course you need to think outside the box, if you want to save yours.
If you've never tried doing this ,there's not much you can say either way.
In the past I've saved wine from being tossed by adding zest ,or an fpac , and so have hundreds of others on this thread .
Just my thoughts


----------



## my wine

jgmillr1 said:


> Sorbate inhibits yeast propagation but does not kill the yeast or prevent live yeast from continuing to ferment.
> 
> You definitely can get bottle refermentation after adding sorbate IF there were enough yeasties alive there to begin with.



I found this in a search. So I should be fine by adding yeast. Thanks!


----------



## joeswine

But will you have balance? Your not in balance now ?


----------



## my wine

Other than having insufficient ABV, what else is out of balance. The kit did finish out to 0.995 and it tastes good but light. So I want to increase the ABV. I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it that might be out of balance?


----------



## Ajmassa

my wine said:


> Other than having insufficient ABV, what else is out of balance. The kit did finish out to 0.995 and it tastes good but light. So I want to increase the ABV. I'm sure I'm missing something. What is it that might be out of balance?


I think he means the reason the kit came in super low in the first place. (Like, what was up with that anyway for it to happen? It’s actually very odd when ya think about it. How a mass produced juice could have a random package with less sugar). Anyway, compare it to iced tea from powder. Make 1 pitcher with 5scoops of iced tea mix. Another with half mix/half sugar. The all-mix will have more flavor. So he’s saying to make up for that with a little addition to the primary.

Also i would still like to confirm the sorbate thing since the whole purpose of sorbate is to prevent yeast from fermenting remaining sugar. It might be more of a time issue. Not sure how adding sorbate just 2 weeks prior will affect this. I do all dry reds and never mess with sorbate. Would need to consult the experts on this one.


----------



## my wine

Ok, I understand. Yep, really strange what happened. My son is a certified cicerone and is pretty good with wine also. This weekend he confirmed the wine was "light". He also said it happens somewhat often in breweries. There they make the next batch stronger and mix them. Occasionally they need a third batch.

Checking my notes, I added the kMeta/Sorbate package on 14 July. More like 6 weeks ago.


----------



## sour_grapes

Following up on my comment: I was not suggesting tossing the batch. I just wouldn't chase after it with another kit. I certainly would pass it through my kidneys on the way to the water treatment plant!  Your brandy idea sounds fine.

Or (if it were me), I would, I dunno, make a pseudo Dragon Blood batch, and then add your original batch in the late stages. Or start something from concentrate, and do the same.


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> Following up on my comment: I was not suggesting tossing the batch. I just wouldn't chase after it with another kit. I certainly would pass it through my kidneys on the way to the water treatment plant!  Your brandy idea sounds fine.
> 
> Or (if it were me), I would, I dunno, make a pseudo Dragon Blood batch, and then add your original batch in the late stages. Or start something from concentrate, and do the same.


Any insight on sorbate being added roughly 6 weeks ago —And if it would affect additional sugar & yeast ?


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa said:


> Any insight on sorbate being added roughly 6 weeks ago —And if it would affect additional sugar & yeast ?



Yes, it is tough sledding! That is why my two suggestions avoided the problem, to some extent. His brandy idea obviously obviates the problem. With the Dragon Blood idea, I had in mind to basically ferment a high-test version DB until a rollicking fermentation is going on, then slowly add the tainted batch.


----------



## my wine

I did more reading. And I need a fermentation starter. I can't just toss EC-1118 into sweetened weak wine and get a decent probability of fermentation. (It might work, but ...) The 1 gallon wine kit would do this. So will a can of Welch's grape juice and yeast. This article looks close to my situation. Please have a read and let me know what you think. 

Everything you know about potassium sorbate is wrong!


----------



## Ajmassa

my wine said:


> I did more reading. And I need a fermentation starter. I can't just toss EC-1118 into sweetened weak wine and get a decent probability of fermentation. (It might work, but ...) The 1 gallon wine kit would do this. So will a can of Welch's grape juice and yeast. This article looks close to my situation. Please have a read and let me know what you think.
> 
> Everything you know about potassium sorbate is wrong!


Yeah. That’s why I brought it up. You didn’t mention chems initially and this option was kinda dependent on whether or not you used the included sorbate. Hence the hesitance once you confirmed you did use it. 

For future reference you can make a mental note that sorbate is pointless in dry wines. A lot of people skip that addition (Been known to cause a chemical bubblegummy kind of aftertaste). Only use it in sweet wines. They don’t tell u that though. It’s just a fail safe insurance policy for them. (One of my many gripes with the evil kit manufacturers!)


----------



## my wine

Today I spoke with Chad, the wine maker at Caesar Creek Vineyard in Xenia Ohio. He confirmed that sorbate is strong stuff but I should be able to start a fermentation in the stabilized wine if I add an abundant amount of yeast. For $5 I got 2 cans of frozen grape juice concentrate, EC-1118 yeast and yeast nutrient. That's a lot less than a 1 gallon kit and yeast. 

I got a starter going 30 minutes ago. It will be ready for the must in 2 days. By then I will have calculated a more precise measure of sugar and SG I will need. I estimated between 4 and 5 pounds a few days ago to get me a reading of 1.045. I'm shooting for 13%. I'll confirm all this.

Should I ferment all the weak wine must at once or should I start with, lets say, 2 gallons and add the rest over the next 3 days?


----------



## joeswine

LOVE thoses *Spanish* wine's eve since itook a trip to spain and did a food and wine tour it'ds been a new wine world for me.


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#3


----------



## joeswine

Took Best Of Show in desert wine Category


----------



## my wine

Now a short update on my weak wine to good wine conversion. I pitched the starter last Saturday, gradually added the weak wine and it's still bubbling today. The 1118 yeast is going more slowly than I would think normal but not unexpected in the sorbated wine. I expect fermentation will go longer than 2 weeks but we'll see as I measure SG periodically. If all goes well I'll post the details of what I did. Thanks for the help!


----------



## joeswine

Yes do so, thinking outside the box is cool.


----------



## my wine

The guarantee on the Winexpert box does work. I received a replacement wine kit today. I'll use some of Joe's techniques to make it better. And the weak, sorbated wine is still fermenting ... 2 weeks today. SG is going down slowly but going down. Keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## my wine

joeswine said:


> For the new kit coming through if a cup raisins and 16 oz of blackberries sauteed down with two cups of the base wine. yeast to rc212 and the package ec-1118 add all this into the primary try it you'll make a superb wine
> That's what I would do. Now it's up to you.



I plan on starting the new kit today and intend to follow this approach. This will be the first time I will do different than the kit way and I had a question. You said to pitch both the rc212 and the ec1118 which comes with the kit. I have rc212. Why pitch both? Should I pitch the rc212 initially and the ec1118 when the SG gets down some, maybe SG 1.3 or 1.2? I'm curious what I should expect with the 2 yeasts together.


----------



## joeswine

The theory is that the 212 will enhance the flavornoids and the ac1118 will drive the alcohol, it's just a theory but I've used it so many times I've won so many medals using this kind of think outside the box it will make you a creative wine maker, take the step forward .
Just my thoughts


----------



## sour_grapes

On the other hand, you may consider the following:



sour_grapes said:


> Some strains of yeast do, in fact, kill other strains. There are three broad classes. Some strains have a "killer factor" (where they excrete a toxic protein). Some strains are immune to this protein, and some are sensitive to it. As it happens, EC-1118 is a killer yeast, and RC-212 is sensitive to it.


----------



## my wine

Thanks sour grapes. I'll go and read the whole thread again tomorrow. Glanced over it tonight and it looks like there are a number of folks that pitch them together and a number that pitch 212 then 1118 later. Someone mentioned the BM4x4 which I believe is a mix of BM45 along with a hardier strain. 

Time got away from me today so I'll read more then get this kit started tomorrow. Sooner to start; sooner to drink!


----------



## joeswine

Wines that take on a whole different profile when blended with yeast I know this is not for everyone ,however for the winemakers with A think outside the box attitude there is always another way.
So far we've blended fruit ,zest ,oak ,tannins as well as other juices to our wines as well as combination's of all of them in this long journey here are some of my favorites .. there are many more ,how many of these have you tried and enjoyed


----------



## my wine

I wanted to give an update on my weak wine project. As I said in an earlier post, I pitched yeast in August using 2 cans of grape juice concentrate to make a starter. Prior to pitching, I added a pound of blackberries simmered for a few minutes and enough sugar to the must to get the SG to 1.047. That would get me a PABV of 13% plus. The fermentation was slow then got slower although it was steady over the 7 weeks. I plotted it on graph paper because I was curious and got a nice, straight line. I added hydrated EC1118 weekly then twice a week. Eventually it stopped fermenting at SG 1.030. I estimate I added 2.75% more alcohol to the 6.75% that was in the weak wine to start. 

Having done more reading I learned that less sorbate is needed to stop yeast the more alcohol is in the wine. So the sorbate that was in the weak wine wasn't enough to stop the restart. But as the fermentation progressed the must environment became too difficult for the fermentation. Not being a sorbate expert there was still plenty of sugar in there so that's my best guess at why the fermentation stopped. 

So what I have now is sweet, light wine and it has more flavor than before. This is good as I will use it to blend with stronger, dry wine. I did that yesterday by adding some to the Trinity Red from the replacement kit. I made the replacement kit with raisins and blackberries. That mix is now settling and will be ready for aging in a couple weeks.

I learned a lot from this adventure in fixing this wine batch. I appreciate all the advice I got from the many winemakers who contributed. I tried a lot of different things and I know all my wines will be better because of this weak wine adventure. So many thanks to you for my future better wine!


----------



## joeswine

Thanks for taking a walk down '" when good wines gone bad " lane.
No matter how it turns out you didn't give up .Making wine is an adventure on its own, that's why I developed tweaking cheap wine kits and when good wines gone bad, to give to those who needed help the processes and experience of myself and others.


----------



## joeswine

Something from Italy, maybe?
PHASE #1


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2...….this kit turned out very nice and didn't cost an arm or an leg to coin a phrase.


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#3 finally overall thinking outside the box pays off.


----------



## joeswine

Eclipse Merlot. Something special in this one ..


----------



## joeswine

Phase #2.................


----------



## jgmann67

joeswine said:


> Phase #2.................



i just picked up the reformulated SLD Merlot. I was surprised that it came with the EC1118. It’s been a little while since I started one of these, but could swear it came with RC212.

I haven’t yet started this kit. Thoughts on a yeast swap? And maybe the addition of some tannin in the primary?


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> i just picked up the reformulated SLD Merlot. I was surprised that it came with the EC1118. It’s been a little while since I started one of these, but could swear it came with RC212.
> 
> I haven’t yet started this kit. Thoughts on a yeast swap? And maybe the addition of some tannin in the primary?



Been a while since I did mine, but I used RC212 (which I noted did not come with the kit) and added tannin in secondary.


----------



## joeswine

You can change out any yeast you want or you can mix the yeast but the ec1118 is going to be a hard driver this is a high alcohol eclipse kit so you need something that's going to be able to complete the job.


----------



## sour_grapes

jgmann67 said:


> i just picked up the reformulated SLD Merlot. I was surprised that it came with the EC1118. It’s been a little while since I started one of these, but could swear it came with RC212.
> 
> I haven’t yet started this kit. Thoughts on a yeast swap? And maybe the addition of some tannin in the primary?



Here are my notes from the last time I made SLD Merlot (old format). This turned out really well.



> Used ICV-D254, sprinkled on top. Added 7.7 g FT Tannin Rouge. 60 g oak dust (from kit) into muslin bag with grape pack. SG before Grape Pack was 1.082, rising to 1.098 after two days. Added 2.5 g Tannin Riche Extra during bulk aging. Taste at bottling was very good, albeit a bit oakey/tanniny?



Despite the last comment, the wine drank really well after a year or two.


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## Boatboy24

sour_grapes said:


> Here are my notes from the last time I made SLD Merlot (old format). This turned out really well.
> 
> 
> 
> Despite the last comment, the wine drank really well after a year or two.




Interestingly, my notes indicated heavy oak early on as well (though it was still very good) But after 18+ months, it was an outstanding wine.


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## joeswine

glad to hear all is well...


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## DitchDave

my wine said:


> I plan on starting the new kit today and intend to follow this approach. This will be the first time I will do different than the kit way and I had a question. You said to pitch both the rc212 and the ec1118 which comes with the kit. I have rc212. Why pitch both? Should I pitch the rc212 initially and the ec1118 when the SG gets down some, maybe SG 1.3 or 1.2? I'm curious what I should expect with the 2 yeasts together.


not often on here but I have been using rc212 to do start ferm, then after pressing add ec1118 with nutrient to work to finish. I use my own grapes - low sugar - high acid Atlantic Canada


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## joeswine

Mulitable yeast usages is not uncommon and can make a plan jane wine more complex


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## joeswine

I've just completed the* Winexperts Double Pinot Noir* and the *Muscato*. both I've used 1118 & 1116. At this point in time their bothin the final stages before bottling,,both premium kits.


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## joeswine

something different comes your way.* BLACK CURRENT* the overall product was deep and rich in flavor and texture a lot of work but worth it.


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## joeswine

PHASE#2


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## joeswine

PHASE##


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## joeswine

SOMETHING FOR THE SUMMER TO COME?? THIS ONE,S A WINNER. EASY ,AND TO THE POINT, USING A QUART OF FRESH PEACHS.


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## Darrell Hawley

joeswine said:


> I've just completed the* Winexperts Double Pinot Noir* and the *Muscato*. both I've used 1118 & 1116. At this point in time their bothin the final stages before bottling,,both premium kits.


Joe, did you add anything to the Pinot Noir ? Going to start one up next week and would like to know what adjustments to make. Thanks.


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## joeswine

To the Pino, raspberries. 
To the mascot, orange Zest.


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## joeswine

Balance at finish was spot on Pino I'm let to age a little. 
Mascat, is good to go anytime 3mo.is a good time frame to set up.and enjoy


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## joeswine

today I started my first FINER wine kit, its a _*sanginovese with grape skins. The package is very interesting in some ways *_
*cold shipped nice touch. anyway started it interesting how your mind is use to see packing and now your reading from a manuscript very cool, how ever not much different from a normal kit at this point but it forces you to READ, yes I say it READ, how mean to old people any way so far so good very interesting I of course add wine tannins to the primary but the rest is staying the course.*


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## joeswine

Ok went down this morning it seem fermentation is starting, I'm use to see more cap then is there now ,well let time donits work ,I have a package of ec1118 at the ready just in case.


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## joeswine

Finer kit.
Now the cap is strong I'll let my hydrometer be my guide.


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## joeswine

SOME THING FROM SPAIN... PHASE #1


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## joeswine

PHASE#2 very nice taste and finish.. excellent chilled, the fresh peached added that extra touch of fruit flavor.


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## DizzyIzzy

joeswine said:


> To the Pino, raspberries.
> To the mascot, orange Zest.


How much of each to, let's say, 5-6 gallons?..Thanks.......................................DizzyIzzy


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## joeswine

16 to 28 ozs.


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## DizzyIzzy

Rocky said:


> BTW, I am not sure I can buy Ever Clear here in Ohio. It is reallygrain alcohol (about 190 proof, or so) as I remember. I think they sell it in PA. I may be able to pick up a bottle there.


Rocky, I have been reading this thread between you and Joe. BTW.................... Everclear *IS* sold here in Ohio, but only Everclear 151,* NOT* the 190..............DizzyIzzy


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## DizzyIzzy

joeswine said:


> 16 to 28 ozs.


Thanks for the reply................................................DizzyIzzy


joeswine said:


> 16 to 28 ozs.


Joe clarification: 16-28 oz. of zest? Makes sense with the raspberries, but that sounds a little much for zest?............................DizzyIzzy


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## joeswine

Zest is about 1half of a grapefruit no more until you've experienced with the results


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## DizzyIzzy

joeswine said:


> Zest is about 1half of a grapefruit no more until you've experienced with the results


Thanks Joe..........................................DizzyIzzy


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## joeswine

Using ZEST, is and excellent enhancer for white wines it adds acidity or a crispness to the finish just remember a little goes along way.


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## joeswine

SOMETHING FROM ITALY *MY WAY*>


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## joeswine

PHASE#2 this was a very good blend when finished.


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## my wine

I had some time to kill so I read some old posts between Joe and Rocky. Great info still!! I picked up a couple more items that I missed in the past.

And I have a story to share about my Chocolate, Almond Trinity Red that I served last weekend at a family dinner with most of my kids here. This is a wine made sweet and flavored with cacao powder and almond extract. My grown kids are my wine judges. They always say nice things about my wine but how they say it tells me if the wine is good or better used to clean my car tires. This wine was good, 4 out of 4 votes!

I was especially proud of this because it started out as wine gone bad ... TWICE! The first time the kit didn't ferment well for some reason and I got a new replacement kit. Not wanting to throw that wine out, I started the fermentation again despite having added K sorbate (per the vendor's instruction). Potential alcohol was now just over 9% and sweet from the sugar still in the wine. So next I tried adding brandy which got me over 11% and cocao and almond as an experiment. Then I bottled in some bottles I bought from Rocky not to long ago. This is now bad wine gone good! 

Another time I'll have them taste my Coffee, Vanilla Trinity Red where I used the Joe recommended decaf instant coffee.


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## joeswine

Never give up.


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## joeswine

A true award winner my style *coffee port*... phase #1


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## joeswine

PHASE#2.*..coffee port.. this is a real award winner if you can let it sit 1 years the flavors will evolves into chocolate and coffee blend.*


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## joeswine

AMARONE old-world style or at least my way?


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## joeswine

PHASE #2..


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## joeswine

PHASE #3..


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## joeswine

PHASE#4..


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## joeswine

PHASE#5..


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## joeswine

PHASE#6..


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## joeswine

Something from Spain.... this turned out very good with just a little of patients.
Phase #1


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## joeswine

Phase#2..............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm--goodddddddddd


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## SeniorHobby

Rocky said:


> Joe, I have to tell you, you are right on with this thread.
> 
> 
> Iam also a good cook (that is not just my opinion, but that of many other people). My Mom had four boys, no girls, and our house was the center for all holiday meals. We used to help out in the kitchen, not really cooking but doing all the other stuff. What we did not realize was we were learning just by helping. My Mom never threw anything away. If there was a dish that was not perfect, sheknewof a way to fix it.
> 
> 
> It is the same with the wines we make. If they are not everything that we expected them to be, we can fix it if we don't loseour heads.In an earlier post I mentioned that I had made a Sangiovese from a 10 liter kit from _Wine Expert_ and, frankly, I was not crazy about it. Using your (think outside the box) methodology, I got some blackberry jam, nuked about a teaspoon and added it to a bottle of the wne. You have tounderstand that in 69 years on this planet, I have had a lot of wine. I can say, I have never had a store bought wine that tasted as good as this. Thank you, Joe.
> 
> 
> There is never _a bad wine_, just one that is _not quite finished_. I hope all the Newbies and some of the old timers on this forum take notice.


Hi Joe,
Very new to the winemaking experience here. I wanted to get started again and picked some wild grapes and fermented them. Didn't know anything about pH, acid or SO2. Just have strong tasting wild grape wine sitting in my carboy. Like Rocky said above, I don't want to throw it away after investing the time into it. I live in Minnesota, right now I have it chilling in a back room, about 35 degrees, hopefully the tartrates are separating out. Just wondering if it is salvageable?
Thanks!


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## my wine

I'm not Joe but you likely have good wine in your carboy. It never tastes great right after fermenting. It make take a few months to settle down. What can you tell us about the process you went through? What was the initial SG?


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## joeswine

HI,
Do you know what your last PH reading was?
Describe what you're tasting in common terms.
How long since you made it?


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## SeniorHobby

joeswine said:


> HI,
> Do you know what your last PH reading was?
> Describe what you're tasting in common terms.
> How long since you made it?


Hi Joe,
Bernice here, When I made this wine I didn't have a pH meter, this is basic wine without corrections. I did just test it and my pH is 3.53. Tasting it brings on a strong acidic taste followed by the fruit flavor. I have it sitting in a carboy since the fall of 2020.


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## SeniorHobby

my wine said:


> I'm not Joe but you likely have good wine in your carboy. It never tastes great right after fermenting. It make take a few months to settle down. What can you tell us about the process you went through? What was the initial SG?


Hello, my first experience with wine making was pretty crude, no mention of a pH meter, acid testing or anything beyond that. I basically put the grapes in the primary added sugar, yeast and let it go. Racked it a few times and this is what I have. Just tested my pH and it is at 3.53. I made this last fall (2020)


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## joeswine

3.5 is not high, yet not low, give it some more time say a month in between give it several good stirrings.
make sure your airlock has a good seal also.
462k views and growing,


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## SeniorHobby

joeswine said:


> 3.5 is not high, yet not low, give it some more time say a month in between give it several good stirrings.
> make sure your airlock has a good seal also.
> 462k views and growing,


The goal here is to settle the tartrates out? When you say to stir, would it suffice to just roll or shake the carboy, or do I need to insert something into the carboy to do this? I have two carboys chilling, noticed that one has about 1 inch of headroom, the other has a few inches. Is it possible that I have exposed it to too much oxygen and spoiled the wine?


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## joeswine

Joe does the pressure in the airlock aperr, even, more to the outlet, or more to the inlet side?
You can shake the carboy twice a day just a coupe of time see if has pressure occours if so continue until there’s no gas showing, understand?


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## SeniorHobby

joeswine said:


> Joe does the pressure in the airlock aperr, even, more to the outlet, or more to the inlet side?
> You can shake the carboy twice a day just a coupe of time see if has pressure occours if so continue until there’s no gas showing, understand?


Nope, don't understand. I do see some gas bubbles when I shook / rolled it.


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## joeswine

What is your sg reading?


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## SeniorHobby

joeswine said:


> What is your sg reading?


two carboys, one at .992 the other at .988


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## joeswine

then your completed, correct, ready for the secondary. move them and start with your Chems. and just let them sit.


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## SeniorHobby

joeswine said:


> then your completed, correct, ready for the secondary. move them and start with your Chems. and just let them sit.


Dealing with an amateur here, my primary was a 5 gallon bucket, towel tied to the top, when fermentation stopped, racked to a carboy with an airlock. Since then racked at least three times. When you say Chems, what should I be adding at this point? Thanks for the patience!


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## joeswine

Be in touch later


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## joeswine

something from Spain. very well-aged and with a deep personality, Like Spanish wines, very under rated.


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## joeswine

A tour through a Spanish winery, was just an amazing place, and the wine was outstanding


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## joeswine

what a history lesson this was


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## joeswine

Just a few more, I'd go back in a heartbeat,


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## Darrell Hawley

joeswine said:


> Just a few more, I'd go back in a heartbeat,


Going on a tour to Spain later this year and looking forward to a day at a winery.


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## winemaker81

Darrell Hawley said:


> Going on a tour to Spain later this year and looking forward to a day at a winery.


My younger son did a college trip to Spain, and they toured several wineries. He became a major fan of Spanish wines!


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## joeswine

summertime and fruit are a marriage made in wine heaven the second phase is the malings


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## joeswine

additional work


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## joeswine

something from Italy *Sangiovese* the prince of Italian Reds


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## joeswine

something peachy


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## joeswine

HERE’S MY TAKE ON BLENDING, THE FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS IS TO ESTABLISH WHAT IT IS IN A TASTE PROFILE, YOUR TRING TO ACCOMPLISH AND WHAT TYPE OF FINISH YOU WANT YOU’RE PROFILE TO HAVE.

NOW THAT YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED THE PROFILE AND FINISH LOOK FOR BLENDS THAT REALLY GO WELL TOGETHER, THAT MAKES WINE BLENDING A WHOLE LOT EASIER.

EX: MAKING A CAB AND MERLOT BLEND IS EASY RIGHT? BUT IF YOU’RE A KIT PERSON NOT SO. A WINEMAKER WHO USES GRAPE AND OR FRESH JUICE HAS THE ADVANTAGE OVER US, WHAT TO DO? *UNDERSTAND? SO WHAT DO WE NEED TO KNOW AND HOW DO WE GET THERE?

BLENDING CONSISTS OF TWO DIFFERENT WINES OR MORE HAVING SOME OF THE SAME CHARISTERICTS YET DIFFERENT ENOUGH IN THE BLEND TO STAND OUT ON ITS OWN WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHERS ROLL IN THE MIX.USUALLY, THIS IS ALL DONE AFTER THE WINES ARE COMPLETED AND READY FOR BOTTLING.*

KIT MAKERS CAN DO ALL THE SAME MOVES ONLY GOING DOWN A VERY DIFFERENT AVENUE, IF YOU THINK OF ALL THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THERE IS NO REAL DIFFERENCE. WE HAVE THE BASIC CONCENTRATES TO WORK WITH AND DEPENDING ON THE VALUE OF THE KIT A LARGER AMOUNT OF VERTICAL JUICE THEN CONCENTRATE, ADDING FRESH-MADE FPACS TO THE BASE OR ZEST TO THE SECONDARY ALONG WITH THE ADDED AMOUNTS OF OAK, OAK DUST AND TANNINS ADDED ALL ALONG THE WAY. OUR VOLUMES ARE SMALL ENOUGH TO TAKE CORRECTIVE ACTION AS LONG AS WE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE BASIC WINE RULES AND SANITATION THAT ARE REQUIRED, WE CAN CHANGE PRETTY MUCH ON A DIME AND DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO OUR PRODUCT.

LET'S SAY I WAS GOING TO MAKE A BLACKBERRY PINO NIOR, THE FIRST QUESTION I ASK IS WHAT THE PRIMARY FLAVOR IS AND WHAT THE SECONDARY. DEPENDING ON WHAT PROFILE I WANT THE WINE TO HAVE (TASTE) WILL LET ME KNOW WHO IS THE LEADER IN THIS DANCE, THE PINO OR THE BLACKBERRY, IF I USE THE PINO AS THE BASE AND THE BLACKBERRY FPAC IN THE PRIMARY THEN THE BLEND SHOULD BE A PARTNERSHIP OF FLAVORS, IF I USE THE PINO AS MY BASE AND THE BERRIES IN THE SECONDARY THEN THE BERRIES BECOME THE BACKGROUND.

*I want to make a pinot Gris, from California and wanted to create crispness and a better bite to the wine's finish, I would finish out the wine making sure I first had good abv. At the finish then either in the secondary or as a closing step a couple of weeks before bottling I would add the zest of 1 grapefruit or lemon to the wine and allow it two sit to infuse its acidity and freshness into the wine, then rack and bottle.

Making your own fpac from fresh grapes whenever and wherever you find them adds a better mouthfeel to the finish.*

There are a lot of different ways kit winemakers can infuse, enhance and create our wines to have a touch of our own hand in the making but you must take the time to *plan your work and work your plan*, and always think outside the box.


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## winemaker81

joeswine said:


> BLENDING CONSISTS OF TWO DIFFERENT WINES OR MORE HAVING SOME OF THE SAME CHARISTERICTS YET DIFFERENT ENOUGH IN THE BLEND TO STAND OUT ON ITS OWN WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHERS ROLL IN THE MIX.USUALLY, THIS IS ALL DONE AFTER THE WINES ARE COMPLETED AND READY FOR BOTTLING.


I disagree regarding blending grapes having the same characteristics. Blending is performed to achieve a specific goal, whether it's a desired profile, correcting deficiencies in a wine, etc. The Rhone Valley is case in point. Northern red Rhone is typically Syrah blended with Roussane or other white wines, to lighten the Syrah's heavy character. Southern red Rhone is often Grenache based - Grenache is a very light red with great flavor notes, and it's blended with Syrah and other reds to provide additional flavor, aroma, body, and especially color.


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## joeswine

Just a matter of opinion, blending is thinking outside the box to a cellar dweller, we’re not all master wine makers.


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## joeswine

joeswine said:


> Just a matter of opinion, blending is thinking outside the box to a cellar dweller, we’re not all master wine makers.


GOT IT?


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## winemanden

The main thing I've learned about blending is never blend a good wine with a poor wine wine hoping to improve it.


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## joeswine

*can I add *
PATIENCE .........


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