# Is this legal?



## seth8530 (Dec 14, 2012)

Hey guys, my fortified sweet strawberry mead came out to be a success. I claim this because a few people around my age who claim to be wine lovers really enjoyed my mead and actually wanted to buy some ( shh I know this does not exactly make me a blue medal winner quite yet). Now I know that selling is a definite no no that will get you into serious trouble if the wrong people find out...

However, trading is fine. We can trade wine all day long and it would be OK. Now my question is, could I trade my wine for commercial wine/ liquor? It is not selling, and it is trading.. eh?

What are your thoughts...


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## Dend78 (Dec 14, 2012)

i love posts that the title is "is this legal" 

there shouldnt be an issue there in trading out, i can trade you a bottle of wine for anything you have ie car, wife, dog, unborn child (check the laws here this may be a grey area), guns, wine commercial or non.

there are no real barter laws and even if there are whos to say you didnt buy the commercial stuff yourself or that it was given to you as a gift?


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## GreginND (Dec 14, 2012)

Of course you can't sell, barter or trade non-bonded homemade wine. But the TTB does allow you to take your wine to organized wine tastings and events. They don't prevent you from giving your wine as a gift to someone.

If someone would like to give you a gift of wine, I think that is fine. It wouldn't be a barter.

You should check the laws in your state though.

http://www.ttb.gov/wine/24_75.htm

http://www.americanwinegrape.com/blog/index.php/2012/06/20/home-wine-making-laws-for-each-of-the-50-states/


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## GreginND (Dec 14, 2012)

Dend78 said:


> i love posts that the title is "is this legal"
> 
> there shouldnt be an issue there in trading out, i can trade you a bottle of wine for anything you have ie car, wife, dog, unborn child (check the laws here this may be a grey area), guns, wine commercial or non.
> 
> there are no real barter laws and even if there are whos to say you didnt buy the commercial stuff yourself or that it was given to you as a gift?



Actually there are legal issues with bartering. The IRS considers it a legal taxable exchange.

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/b/2010/05/21/6-things-to-consider-about-barter-transactions.htm


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## Dend78 (Dec 14, 2012)

GreginND said:


> Actually there are legal issues with bartering. The IRS considers it a legal taxable exchange.
> 
> http://biztaxlaw.about.com/b/2010/05/21/6-things-to-consider-about-barter-transactions.htm



i forgot about those IRS guys, yeah so gift exchange


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## TonyP (Dec 14, 2012)

Federal law (Liquor Control Act of 1934) states, "'Sale' means any transfer, exchange or barter in any manner, or by any means whatsoever ...". Of course there's the practical side of things and I can't imagine anyone getting upset over this. However, it seems to me if you hire someone to do work and pay him in wine, you've committed a federal crime.

Note that anyone sending me a bottle of wine for providing this information is automatically exempt from prosecution.

Tony P.


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## Bartman (Dec 14, 2012)

GreginND said:


> Actually there are legal issues with bartering. The IRS considers it a legal taxable exchange.
> 
> http://biztaxlaw.about.com/b/2010/05/21/6-things-to-consider-about-barter-transactions.htm


This is true, however the IRS also knows it has no way of controlling or taxing barter transactions, since, almost by definition, there is no record or paper trail of the transaction to audit after the fact. Legally, we are constitutionally allowed to contract with whomever we choose for any (legal) purpose (no contraband arms dealings with the Sandinistas, Ollie North - ), and for the most part it is caveat emptor (buyer beware). So, who is to say you got that bottle of wine in a trade for another bottle of wine, instead of, say, for letting your friend watch the Super Bowl on your new big-screen TV; during the game, he helps you move your couch so you have easier access to the wine cellar, so you let him pick a bottle of wine to take home. With all the undocumented 'exchanges' for goods and services that a fertile mind could conceive, the IRS has no way of keeping up; moreover, the exchanges we are discussing are "de minimis" and not worth the IRS' time to mess with.

Now, more seriously, there are big-time, big-money exchanges that are documented and regulated significantly for tax purposes, primarily, 1031 exchanges for multi-million-dollar property, which are done for the express purpose of abiding by the tax code's regulations.


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## GreginND (Dec 14, 2012)

Yes, the point is never call it a trade or a barter. Words matter. They are gifts freely given with nothing expected in return.

By the way, be careful about giving wine as a "donation". I've had friends get in trouble for donating their wines for charity silent auctions.


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## seth8530 (Dec 14, 2012)

Hmm, this is interesting.. So do you think I would be in the good for gifting someone some wine and they gifted me a bottle of Buffalo Trace?


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## GreginND (Dec 14, 2012)

seth8530 said:


> Hmm, this is interesting.. So do you think I would be in the good for gifting someone some wine and they gifted me a bottle of Buffalo Trace?



Yes! No problem with gifts.


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## Bartman (Dec 14, 2012)

GreginND said:


> Yes! No problem with gifts.



Up to $13,000 annually to any one person, $14,000 for 2013. 

This ties into the ongoing thread on what's your wine worth...


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Dec 14, 2012)

You let the cat out of the bag with the first post. Just keep quiet.


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## Midwest Vintner (Dec 15, 2012)

Definitely not legal for commercial wineries, fyi. Every bottle is to be accounted for.


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## GreginND (Dec 15, 2012)

Midwest Vintner said:


> Definitely not legal for commercial wineries, fyi. Every bottle is to be accounted for.



As long as the taxes are paid a Winery can certainly give, barter or sell their wine.


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## seth8530 (Dec 15, 2012)

GreginND said:


> As long as the taxes are paid a Winery can certainly give, barter or sell their wine.



^^ Truth! It is!


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## Midwest Vintner (Dec 17, 2012)

GreginND said:


> As long as the taxes are paid a Winery can certainly give, barter or sell their wine.



I'm not so sure about this, but the cfr is down.


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## derunner (Dec 17, 2012)

Does this vary by state? Technically, i don't think gifting is legal in my state. Sharing in my home is legal, so you can invite friends over. 

§ 707. Home manufacture of beer or wine for personal consumption.

(a) No license or special permit shall be required for the manufacture within homes, or other premises used in connection therewith, of beer in quantities of 200 gallons or less during any calendar year, or wine in quantities of 200 gallons or less during any calendar year,* for the personal consumption only of the homeowner(s), their families or their guests; provided however, that such beer or wine shall not be offered for sale.
* 
(b) Such beer or wine, when manufactured and used as set forth above, shall not be subject to any taxes imposed by the Liquor Control Act.

(c) Beer and wine manufactured pursuant to this section *may be removed from the home and transported for personal or family use, and in addition may be transported for the purposes of participating in club-sponsored events and tasting competitions.
* 
(d) Notwithstanding any other provision in this chapter or title, concentrated alcoholic beverages are not “home-manufactured beer or wine” for purposes of this section, and all Commissioner regulations and tax requirements concerning home-manufactured beer or wine shall not apply to concentrated alcoholic beverages.


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## GreginND (Dec 17, 2012)

Yes, it does vary by state. That statement about consumption only of the homeowner, etc. is not in the TTB regulations.


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## bein_bein (Dec 17, 2012)

I never sell my wine, instead I have "bottles of colored liquid to be used for decorative purposes only." In fact I am even thinking about putting "NOT INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION" on the bottle.... I can't be held responsible for what people do in the privacy of their home... right ?:


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## seth8530 (Dec 17, 2012)

Heheeh very nice.

BTW, I was wrong. I winery can not gift away wine that is intended for sale. However, Im pretty sure they can gift it once they are off the premise or in a non professorial setting.


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## barryjo (Jan 2, 2013)

Several people have asked my "how much?" for several bottles of wine. My reply is "I can't sell it". 
However, I did place an empty peanut container on a shelf near the door that is labeled "Wine Supply Fund". Nothing against helping the vintner out with supplies.
If they don't contribute, they are not asked back!!!!


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## barryjo (Jan 2, 2013)

bein_bein said:


> I never sell my wine, instead I have "bottles of colored liquid to be used for decorative purposes only." In fact I am even thinking about putting "NOT INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION" on the bottle.... I can't be held responsible for what people do in the privacy of their home... right ?:


 
Meat marinade is a popular use for wine.
Just sayin'


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## GreginND (Jan 2, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Heheeh very nice.
> 
> BTW, I was wrong. I winery can not gift away wine that is intended for sale. However, Im pretty sure they can gift it once they are off the premise or in a non professorial setting.



They can't gift it if it is still bonded and the excise taxes have not been paid. But if the taxes are already paid, I don't think it would be a problem for a winery to gift wine. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## seth8530 (Jan 4, 2013)

I will defer to your knowladge on this matter


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## Fabiola (Jan 4, 2013)

GreginND said:


> They can't gift it if it is still bonded and the excise taxes have not been paid. But if the taxes are already paid, I don't think it would be a problem for a winery to gift wine. Maybe I'm wrong.



I think it depends, in New Mexico is illegal to gift any type of alcohol, for exampe bars cannot give a beer case as a prize in a dance contest, neither can sell drinks 2X1, that is consider gifting... I think that varies from state to state...


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## saramc (Jan 4, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Heheeh very nice.
> 
> BTW, I was wrong. I winery can not gift away wine that is intended for sale. However, Im pretty sure they can gift it once they are off the premise or in a non professorial setting.



Actually, depending on state law a licensed winery/distillery can donate to registered charities. Not applicable in every state, so you need to check out state law if you are a commercial entity.
Commercial wineries provide sample bottles to liquor stores, etc., all the time. State law defines how they can go about it. No different than a winery providing tastings, complimentary or paid, state law and even county laws will set the parameters. All about taxes and your state/local laws.


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## terroirdejeroir (Jan 8, 2013)

I have seen references to folks who host wine production on a contract basis for customers who want the kit experience, but don't want the investment in equipment, fruit flies, etc. I have always assumed those were our Canadian brethren. Is that legal in the US?


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## GreginND (Jan 8, 2013)

Here in the states those kit wine production facilities also need to be licensed and bonded just like any other winery.


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