# Tannin query



## Geronimo (Apr 8, 2014)

Hi Guys,

I've been trying my luck with Tan'cor Grand Cru, Tannin Riche and Tannin Riche Extra.

So far, I'm detecting a little extra complexity but very little "spice" or "bite" after 6 months or so. 

I've been trying to stay at 3g Tan'cor Grand Cru, or 3.5g Tannin Riche or 4.5g Tannin Riche Extra.

Has anyone else got any different experiences?


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## Julie (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks for posting this, Jim. I am very interested in everyone's personal experience on their tannin use. I just started to use finishing tannins.


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## the_rayway (Apr 8, 2014)

As am I - I recently purchased Tannin Riche Extra and am interested to see what/how others use it. 

On a side note: it smells so good I had a lick the other day...not bad


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 8, 2014)

I've only used grand Cru, but am usually closer to 6g for a 6 gallon batch. I just received my first TanninRiche, and may try some of that on last year's Malbec.

Upon further review, I'm going to split the batch. Half will get Grand Cru and half RicheExtra. Come back in 6 months and I'll give a full report.


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## wildvines (Apr 8, 2014)

So far I only used ft rouge soft and ft rouge tannin. And I will tell you that it has a bite and mouthfeel. I just started bulk aging a few wines. I took a sip or toe or three and I was really warm lol


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## Geronimo (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm sort of wondering if there's a limit to how much you can change. What I mean is that over time, the wine will seek out a natural balance. 

I've been buying the packets of Tannin Riche and Tannin Riche Extra at Midwest when I stop there, so they are pre-measured. I don't have a super accurate scale for the Tan'cor Grand Cru so I've been using a teaspoon measure just to be consistent.


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## cocroach (Apr 8, 2014)

I used Tannin Riche Extra to a Nebbiolo I just bottled a few weeks ago. Maybe it's a bit too early, but all I taste is wood right now, even though I added just a touch. I'm a little disappointed to say the least. I hope this fades out. 

I do love dry wines. Does anyone use grape tannin?? I was thinking to try this over the Tannin Riche Extra.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 8, 2014)

I've been adding 8 g of Tannin FT Rouge to primary, and then 2.2 g Tannin Riche for aging. (And Raelene, I agree: the Tannin Riche _does_ smell nice and tastes okay even at nearly full strength!)

But I cannot tell you how this has affected the wines, as I simply don't have the long-term experience. I do have an experiment going with a CC Old Vine Zin, where I added Tannin Riche to 10 bottles and nothing to 10 bottles. Let you know in a year!


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## DoctorCAD (Apr 9, 2014)

Just bought some FT Rouge Soft for my LE Pino Noir. I understand it is specifically made for light wines like Pinot.

Guess I'll know in a year or so!


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## wildvines (Apr 9, 2014)

DoctorCAD said:


> Just bought some FT Rouge Soft for my LE Pino Noir. I understand it is specifically made for light wines like Pinot.
> 
> Guess I'll know in a year or so!




I used the soft on my eclipse Pinot and does show promise. I added mine to secondary though. I normally add 2 tablespoons to secondary. For my super Tuscan I just added 1/3 tablespoon to primary of ft rouge 


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## DoctorCAD (Apr 9, 2014)

wildvines said:


> I used the soft on my eclipse Pinot and does show promise. I added mine to secondary though. I normally add 2 tablespoons to secondary. For my super Tuscan I just added 1/3 tablespoon to primary of ft rouge
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


 

Instructions state to use it during primary and if you add any later to wait to bottle. Guess it doesn't dissolve or settle out easily?


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## wildvines (Apr 9, 2014)

You can use it post fermentation but would leave it in fir 3 to 6 weeks as instructed on company site. I leave in secondary for 15 days. So I get a good bit amount infused. 


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## wildvines (Apr 9, 2014)

I may leave it in for 3 weeks. I'm never in a rush lol


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## vernsgal (Apr 9, 2014)

cocroach said:


> I do love dry wines. Does anyone use grape tannin?? I was thinking to try this over the Tannin Riche Extra.


I too would like to hear from anyone who has used the grape tannin, I'm curious as to the difference.


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## Geronimo (Apr 9, 2014)

The "3-6 weeks before bottling" is supposedly for polymerization (the effect of long chain molecules forming). That seems to also suppose that 6 gallons of wine will (at the molecular level) yield a different result than 750 mL. 

For me at least, the real issue is clarity and integration.


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## Geronimo (Apr 9, 2014)

vernsgal said:


> I too would like to hear from anyone who has used the grape tannin, I'm curious as to the difference.



Can you link to the grape tannin? I can't find a retailer that carries it.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 9, 2014)

Tan'Cor Grand Cru is partly grape tannins. I had trouble finding it in small quantities when I looked for it some time ago.


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## cocroach (Apr 9, 2014)

Here's the link to the liquid grape tannin I was thinking of trying. Not sure how much depth/character it adds over the Tannin Riche.

http://grapestoglass.com/shop/tannin/liquid-grape-tannin/


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 9, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Tan'Cor Grand Cru is partly grape tannins. I had trouble finding it in small quantities when I looked for it some time ago.



Fine Vine Wines has it. It is now called Tan Rich.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 9, 2014)

Yeah, I saw that from Fine Vine Wines. However,  the way I read this sheet, Tan Rich is not grape based. And this brochure seems to confirm that.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 9, 2014)

Interesting. Thanks Paul.


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## vernsgal (Apr 10, 2014)

Geronimo said:


> Can you link to the grape tannin? I can't find a retailer that carries it.



http://grapestoglass.com/shop/tannin/liquid-grape-tannin/

I picked up a bottle from Spagnol's but have no idea when to use it or what it does lol


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## Geronimo (Apr 10, 2014)

vernsgal said:


> http://grapestoglass.com/shop/tannin/liquid-grape-tannin/
> 
> I picked up a bottle from Spagnol's but have no idea when to use it or what it does lol



Tannins are tannins... sort of. The difference in the composition will be the flavor it imparts (if any) and how well it combines with the wine.

Here's a good article 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/tannins-know-when-why-add-them-42039/

Grape tannin isn't going to add flavor so much as astringency. Grape tannin can legitimately come from the skins, seeds and/or stems. Since grape skins are used in wine making, and grape seeds are used to produce oil... that makes stems the likely source.

If you have a wine that lacks any "zest" or "spice", tannin might be your answer. You have to be REALLY careful adding the stuff, though, because you can't take it back out. Ever see a chef turn the salt container upside down over the soup kettle and watch the top come off? Pretty much dumpster juice after that. When they say "add to taste" it's really an art form to getting it right. Tannins will soften over time... to a degree. Just something to keep in mind when adding them is if you plan to cellar the wine for 5+ years you might err slightly higher than your palate suggests.

Good luck!!


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## NoobVinter (Jul 1, 2014)

Hi everyone. I'm a noob with tannins. Will they get filtered out with 5 or 1 micron filters? 


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## Geronimo (Jul 2, 2014)

At the molecular level, no. The solids (powder) will, yes. 

Wine tannin is a naturally occurring polyphenol compund found in the skins, stems and seeds of the grape. In wine making, we extract tannins from oak as well. Most commercially available tannin additives come from various sources like nut shells, exotic woods, and other fruits. Unsweetened black tea is a great example of nearly pure tannin.


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## NoobVinter (Jul 2, 2014)

Thank you for helping me understand tannins more. I guess I will filter six gallons now with 5/1 micron filters, and start experimenting with various tannins in small quantities.I need to learn more about their reason.

Best of luck with your journeys thanks again for the help.

Take care all.


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## knockabout (Jul 2, 2014)

When we started experimenting with tannins and whether or not to use them we did the bench trial thing -got out 33 glasses of wine mixed in what we figured was one glass worth of three different tannins and left one without and tasted them (without waiting for polymerization or long chain development or anything else). WE found a big delicious difference and liked them all better than nothing found one particular tannin we liked best then did bench trials with that tannin using different amounts to figure out how much we liked. We then added a bit less to our big batch as we didn't know if it would fall back or get stronger over time. We add tannins in at least 2 stages to all our wines now, sometimes 3 stages. We find it adds alittle something extra for our taste.


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## Geronimo (Jul 2, 2014)

knockabout said:


> When we started experimenting with tannins and whether or not to use them we did the bench trial thing -got out 33 glasses of wine mixed in what we figured was one glass worth of three different tannins and left one without and tasted them (without waiting for polymerization or long chain development or anything else). WE found a big delicious difference and liked them all better than nothing found one particular tannin we liked best then did bench trials with that tannin using different amounts to figure out how much we liked. We then added a bit less to our big batch as we didn't know if it would fall back or get stronger over time. We add tannins in at least 2 stages to all our wines now, sometimes 3 stages. We find it adds alittle something extra for our taste.



Which tannin did you find you liked best?


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## NoobVinter (Jul 2, 2014)

Geronimo said:


> Which tannin did you find you liked best?




Yes please tell, I am eager to read these details as well.  I only have one type. It's made by LD Carlson and is labeled simply Wine Tannin....I used it once for primary fermentation, and must confess that I was simply following the directions of the recipe. I have no idea what is happening, and want to learn. 


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## sour_grapes (Jul 2, 2014)

NoobVinter said:


> Yes please tell, I am eager to read these details as well.  I only have one type. It's made by LD Carlson and is labeled simply Wine Tannin....I used it once for primary fermentation, and must confess that I was simply following the directions of the recipe. I have no idea what is happening, and want to learn.




This sticky would be a good place to start: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/tannins-know-when-why-add-them-42039/


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## Geronimo (Jul 2, 2014)

NoobVinter said:


> Yes please tell, I am eager to read these details as well.  I only have one type. It's made by LD Carlson and is labeled simply Wine Tannin....I used it once for primary fermentation, and must confess that I was simply following the directions of the recipe. I have no idea what is happening, and want to learn.



Follow Paul's link and you'll learn a lot! 

Personally, I've used the most expensive tannins in moderate doses. Tannin Riche, Tannin Riche Extra, Tancor Grand Cru.... all of which are fine. We're talking about adding $5 - $10 to a 6 gallon batch so "expensive" is subjective. 

That "LD Carlson wine tannin" is mostly chestnut shell extract. It's best for primary fermentation IMO. Sacrificial tannins they call them.

Good luck!


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## NoobVinter (Jul 2, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> This sticky would be a good place to start: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/tannins-know-when-why-add-them-42039/







Geronimo said:


> Follow Paul's link and you'll learn a lot!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you so much. I really learned a lot from the link. I will research the Cellaring and Finishing Tannins now, and experiment soon I guess. The organic chemistry element is really interesting....until I catch a buzz. Then it's just, sip, sip, yep....that'll do just fine.

Cheers Mates!

Have a great night, take care everyone.


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## knockabout (Jul 2, 2014)

Geronimo said:


> Which tannin did you find you liked best?


We both agreed on the tan cor grand cru for that particular wine a mm Cabernet and most if our bigger reds ie cabs, Tempranillo, Zinfandel, cab blends.


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## NoobVinter (Jul 2, 2014)

I just found the many types Scott'Tan Tannins. I'll just get them all and have some fun with a couple one gallon jugs of Dragon Blood. 


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## Geronimo (Jul 3, 2014)

knockabout said:


> We both agreed on the tan cor grand cru for that particular wine a mm Cabernet and most if our bigger reds ie cabs, Tempranillo, Zinfandel, cab blends.



That was my choice, too, but I can't find it any more.


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## knockabout (Jul 3, 2014)

This is an interesting link on a bench trial done by Fine Vine Wines and better documented then my own. 
http://www.finevinewines.com/post_fermentation_tannins.html


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