# Big batch of bochet



## Downwards

Well, I've borrowed my friend's great big crawfish boiling pot and gas burner. That thing gets nice and hot. Unfortunately I didn't think about (or perhaps take the warnings I've read seriously) the BEES! My god, my driveway looks like it's got a swarm happening right now, lol. I just slammed the lid onto the pot and turned off the gas and ran inside. 

I live in the house in the middle of several lemon orchards, guess I should have seen that coming.  Luckily the honey is still it a very light phase, it was just starting to boil. I'm likely going to have to wait till they clear out and then bring the pot inside for the stovetop. 

Four gallons of wildflower honey, this is an adventure already. I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## Downwards

Pot won't fit on the stovetop. I think this is going to wait till sundown.


----------



## Julie

Roflmao, good luck and yes please let us know how you make out. 

I have never had Bouchet, what does this taste like and I'm assuming it is worth the Battle of the Bees!


----------



## Downwards

You know, I've never had it either! But I read this on Polarhug's thread, "Bochet – a mead where the honey is burned to yield toffee, chocolate, marshmallow flavors..." and just knew what I was going to make next. I love caramelized sugar, and I have lots of empty carboys. The bees have buzzed off, but I'm sure they'll be back if I return to it now. I've taken the time to sterilize everything and go ahead and rack 10 gallons of strawberry wine that is starting to settle out. 
Can't wait to get back to it! I'm using a wildflower honey, and it started out pretty dark unfortunately, so I'll have to go by smell and taste (cooled of course).


----------



## Polarhug

Good luck and keep us updated on the process!


----------



## Downwards

WOW! What a smell. 
I cooked it just to where it began to smoke, then poured 4 gallons of water on it to stop it cooking. Got it in primaries now, lalvin 71B, and 1.090 @ about 91 F. (1.095?)


----------



## seth8530

Very interesting topic you have going on here. Pictures would be greatly appreciated! Sound like a very promising project to me. So, you have about 8 gallons of product going right now?


----------



## Downwards

Yeah, that sounds about right. For some reason I thought it would be more, but with a recipe like this (just the water and honey basically) I don't like to fixate on how much I think I'm going to get and just add water to the SG I want. I think it was in my head that I'd get a lot more though, because I got 10 gallons of cyser from 2 gallons of honey. But I wasn't really considering the sugar in the apple cider.. I guess I'll know how much is in there when I rack it into the carboys.

Here are pictures of one of the primaries- I got two about the same amount. I pitched the yeast when still warm, and it's going nuts already. Looks like a giant Guinness!


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

You are going to have to invest in a beesuit for your next batch, and get the leather gloves that come with the suit, they would protect you during the stirring part. Are you going to let it ferment down to dry or step feed it more caremalized honey? We had used a dark wildflower in our Bochet and it turned black so I dont think you using a dark honey at the start is going to make any problems. Did you pull samples out and put on a white plate as you went or just waited until you had smoke signals?

WVMJ


----------



## Downwards

You think I should feed it more? I was thinking not to, but every time I go into the wine room now, the smell is so wonderfully strong, I think it could carry a higher ABV.. 
I didn't pull any color samples, just saw the first sign of smoke, stirred it and the smoke stopped- etc. Third time I saw smoke I shut it off and added the water. I've cooked with sugar lots, and I think it can burn fast once the water is out the heat is up there. I panicked a little, thought I put the water on too soon for a second, but the smell (and taste) of it is so nice I'm happy with the way it came out.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

4 gallons of honey, even after cooking, should have given you more like 15 gallons of must at 1.095 instead of 8. Did you really stir the snot out of it when you mixed up your must, like with a drill or just a big paddle? WVMJ



Downwards said:


> WOW! What a smell.
> I cooked it just to where it began to smoke, then poured 4 gallons of water on it to stop it cooking. Got it in primaries now, lalvin 71B, and 1.090 @ about 91 F. (1.095?)


----------



## Downwards

WVMountaineerJack said:


> 4 gallons of honey, even after cooking, should have given you more like 15 gallons of must at 1.095 instead of 8. Did you really stir the snot out of it when you mixed up your must, like with a drill or just a big paddle? WVMJ



OK, yeah that's more like what I was thinking I'd wind up with. I may HAVE actually. I was just adding the water to the primaries to the number I was looking for and not even keeping track. Actually, now that I think about it, I think where that 8 gallons number came from was just Seth adding up my 4 gallons of honey and then 4 gallons of water I mentioned adding to the pot. But that's nowhere near all the water I added (later in the bucket, more cool water went in), so I'm pretty sure that's wrong. I just didn't notice till now where he got that from, but now I see it. Just following what I mentioned, right Seth? 

But since you mention that, I'll go check it again, just to be sure (gravity I mean)- It certainly can't hurt to whisk in more oxygen if nothing else. 

BRB


----------



## Downwards

Ok, was the must too sweet but not stirred well? Or did I have way more than 8 gallons? 

Both, lol.
Stirred it for quite a while, measured again and it was at 1.120! Honey don't mix easy does it.
Somewhere about 4 gallons later (total between the two primaries) and I'm now at 1.100, think I'll stick with that actually.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

And that is after the yeast ate some of it tonight. I use one of those drill mounted stirrers and whip all of our meads up to make sure, especially with the Bochet as you have thickened the honey it takes a little more effort but well worth it. I made extra caremalized honey for backsweetening, added it to our little 3 gallon batch, its been one of the hardest batches we have made not to go ahead and bottle it so we can start drinking it now, sort of like making that first batch of wine ever and wanting to start drinking it right after it cleared I have exhausted my honey allowance for the next year already but if my bees work out well this year a bigger batch of Bochet will be on the list. WVMJ


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, thats where I got my numbers from. Looks like you did not get the honey evenly mixed.My method of avoiding that is using an arm paddle to stir the must that way you can actually feel the clumps of honey and makes sure they get mixed in.

I really like how your project looks. How many gallons do you think you really have? My guess is your sg was prob around 1.130 so it might end up kind of hot and needing prolonged aging.. But as is life eh? Either that or your yeast might poop out early.


----------



## Downwards

Initially when you said 8 gallons, I kind of got sad and thought you knew the theoretical yield to be that based on how much honey I used. Then I re-read my own words and realized that essentially, I told you that, lol. But I just wasn't very clear.

Yeah, actually I don't mind if it takes a great deal of aging, my hope is that it will be able to age a great deal of time even if it means we won't want to drink it right away. 
Had another project going (in clearing stages now) that was a cyser which is about that strong too. It went totally dry and then I gave it some wisteria blossoms as well as some oak. It's about 10 gallons, so between these two I may have to buy more carboys, lol. I would guess that I will have about 14-15 gallons from this batch, so that's ~5 carboys (between these two meads!) that can't be used for the next year or two.

If it was 1.130, that means .01 got eaten by the yeast before I measured it later and found it 1.120 right? so that would mean that my OG (after adding water later) equates to around 1.110? If so that would yield around 14-15% ABV? I'd be ok with that..


----------



## seth8530

Depends on how much water you decided to add to it. I am not sure how much you decided to add. 14-15% is manageable. Especially if you give it some oak or something.


----------



## Downwards

Oak is the plan. Any recommendations? I've barely even explored the options, though I've used medium toast cubes in a couple wines. I liked them but I don't think I used them long enough. Was nervous I was going to wreck them with it by overdoing it.. 

I noticed you used Hungarian in your port. Liked it?

Also what would the practical benefit of using a small barrel be, or is there any?


----------



## seth8530

I like Hungarian oak alot. It adds peppery and leather notes as well as a pleasant in general smokiness. I recommend about 3oz of CUBES for around 5-6 gallons with not particular timeline on how long to leave them in. Different kinds of oaks might lend more vanilla flavours. I really like the effect it has had on my "port" I am using heavy toast french oak in my mead right now. Not sure how that will end up but we shall see. I think the heavier the toast the more vanilla. 
Wade posted this. I am pretty sure he borrowed it from someone else first though.



> French Oak Flavor Summary
> 
> All toast levels have a perceived aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel.
> French oak has a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes*. (*Especially at higher toast levels.)
> As the toast levels increased the fruity descriptor for the wine changed from fresh to jammy to cooked fruit/raisin in character.
> American Oak Flavor Summary
> The American oak had aromatic sweetness and a campfire/roasted coffee attribute present in all three toast levels, with Medium Plus and Heavy toast having the highest intensity.
> American oak had cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy quality.
> American Oak imparted mouthfeel/fullness, especially in Medium Plus.
> Hungarian Oak Flavor Summary
> The Hungarian oak at Medium toast displayed a high perceived-vanillin content, with roasted coffee, bittersweet chocolate and black pepper characters.
> Medium Plus and Heavy toast imparted mouthfeel fullness, with only a slight amount of campfire/roasted coffee. Heavy also had pronounced vanillin. At all toast levels, there were unique attributes such as leather and black pepper, not observed in other oak origins.
> Some applicable generalizations of toast levels on oak
> The lower the toast, the more tannins (“structure”) and lactones (“wood-like” and “coconut”) will be present in each of the oaks.
> The higher the toast, the more spice and smoke notes will be present.
> The deeper the toast, the more deep the caramel tones will be (moving into butterscotch at medium plus).
> Vanilla will increase up through a medium-plus toast and then decrease with a heavy toast and char.
> American oak will be more aromatic, but French oak will give more structure (Hungarian will give less than the French but more than the American).
> The greater the toast level, the lower the lactones (“wood” and “coconut”) for all three woods.
> Medium plus is the most complex of all of the toast levels, and the most popular.



I honestly would recommend oak cubes over a small barrel, but that is just because I know more about cubes and also I think it is a lot harder to over oak with cubes.


----------



## Downwards

That sounds great! Hungarian sounds like the thing for the bochet flavors. I'll order some ahead of time.


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, either that or frech because of claimed crembrule flavours. My mead is not old enough to either confirm nor deny this.


----------



## Downwards

Bubbling away like crazy! Feeding ~3/4 t yeast energizer and 1 1/2 t DAP on day 1, 2, and 3, plus a 4th feeding when the sugar is about half gone. Whisking in oxygen about 3 X per day till it goes to secondary.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

Downwards, thats a lot of DAP, is that for 5 gallons or all of it together? Do you have anything like Fermaid to add instead that gives more complete nutrition to the yeast? WVMJ


----------



## seth8530

What is a t?


----------



## Downwards

T= tablespoon, t= teaspoon
I have something close to 14-15 gallons here, so I don't think it's a lot is it? I'm going by Michael Fairbrother's advice in a podcast I heard. I did it with my last mead and it finished in about 3 weeks from 1.100 to dry. That was my first mead, but prior to starting it I had been under the impression that they take a long time to ferment.
Don't have Fermaid, but if I replace my nutrient with that would I still need to use energizer too?

Also fermenting in a room that stays in the 60's F- hope that next weeks heat wave I keep hearing about won't mess that up.


----------



## seth8530

Using this document right here and basing it off of a honey must http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=-X1lFpu-qNVnFYroCPh5DA&bvm=bv.45645796,d.eWU

I get that in general you should use 1.8g/gal fermaid K +.907g/gal yeast hulls + 2.72gram/gallon DAP during your fermentation up UNTIL the 1/2 sugar mark. So that means you could add half of the nutrient at the end of the lag and half at the 1/3 sugar break or you could add 1/3 at end of the lag 1/3 at the 1/3 sugar break and 1/3 at the 1/2 sugar break.. Just make sure you get the total dose you need in.... It works better if you add it gradually.. An illustration of the second case follows.

15 gallons of mead means that you need 27 grams of Fermaid K 13.5 grams of yeast hulls and 41.25 grams of DAP in your mead. If you break this up into three steps you will need to add 9 grams of Fermaid K at each step 4.5 grams of yeast hulls at each step and 13.75 grams of DAP at each step..

It is important to distinguish between DAP and Fermaid K they contain different nutrients that the yeast needs at different phases to insure a clean fermentation. 

Do you follow what I have done? Also, Fermaid also recommends re-hydration in go-ferm prior to pitching the yeast. I converted from Kips to Grams that the document used to give a more convenient unit of measure.


----------



## Downwards

Love it! Thanks, I will weigh what I've put in already and discount that. I will need to buy fermaid K. Is the yeast energizer basically yeast hulls? Never mind found it. "A blend of diammonium phosphate, magnesium sulfate, yeast hulls and vitamin B complex"


----------



## seth8530

No, I suspect they are different. I am not sure what your yeast energizer is made from. I would recommend going ahead and buying a big bag of fermaidK it is useful stuff. One thing to keep in mind is that these are only the basics of nutrient step addition.. More advanced techniques can be researched but this is the quick and dirty.


----------



## Downwards

I weighed out my products and did the math, looks like I've put in 16 g of dap, where you are suggesting 13.75. I've done 4 g of energizer (which contains hulls) where you are suggesting 4.5. Only I did this in two steps. So, switching over to your numbers, I guess I'll call that 1 of 3 additions, and I'll just keep going forward with what I have. When yeast hulls and fermaid k arrive, I'll switch to those products. 
Sound good?


----------



## seth8530

Sounds like it should be pretty good to me. If you need yeast hulls in a hurry you can buy some bread yeast, mix it in some water and boil i for a bit for a nice yeast snack... (for the wine not you). Also, remember energizer is not just yeast hulls. It is yeast hulls and other goodies so keep that in mind for future reference.. Also, I would quit airating at the 1/3 sugar break because I think that is when the yeast quits using Oxygen after a certain point... But do some research on your own about that one because I am currently studying for my health physics final (;


----------



## Downwards

Was at the grocery store yesterday, wandering the fresh produce I suddenly started thinking I'd done some of this bochet with fruit. Think of it, caramelize honey with apricot, or banana, or honey mandarins, or mango, or cherimoya etc. 

Would that even be a bochet or melomel? Bochelomel.

1.080 today.


----------



## seth8530

I imagine such things are possible. If you plan on doing that I would let it age in two different secondaries, one with the fruit and one without. That way you can have a nice side by side.


----------



## Deezil

I have a Banana melomel-port, that i'll be bochet-ing part of the honey for.. 

It's a thought in progress as this point; i'll be buying the brandy and starting the banana soak here shortly


----------



## Downwards

Yeah, I think banana might be really especially suited to it. Makes me think of bananas Foster. Even caramelizing fruit might be interesting. 
I won't change any of this batch, but I do want to try something else similar soon.


----------



## seth8530

I might do a botchet sometime this fall when I get some $$$ in.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

Bochetomel, already trying to get it officially recognized. Cross between Bochet and Melomel. WVMJ



Downwards said:


> Was at the grocery store yesterday, wandering the fresh produce I suddenly started thinking I'd done some of this bochet with fruit. Think of it, caramelize honey with apricot, or banana, or honey mandarins, or mango, or cherimoya etc.
> 
> Would that even be a bochet or melomel? Bochelomel.
> 
> 1.080 today.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

We have an Elders Blood Bochetomel going right now, Bochet honey, dried elderberries, oak, a lot of good things mixed up in there including a vanilla bean. That might also go good in yours when its starting to clear in the secondary. WVMJ


----------



## Downwards

Sounds good! I was actually given a great big bag of vanilla beans by a baker friend who said they were too dry for her to work with. They are dry like twigs no doubt, but they still smell amazing.


----------



## the_rayway

I've just read this whole thread, and I think I NEED to try this. I can taste all of the flavours in my head as you are both talking about it. And there are sooo many things you can do with it.

When Downwards mentioned Apricots it made me think about adding some of the apricot butter I make in the summer to the mix. You cook the apricots down until they get this amazing orangy-flowery-carmelized sugar taste - which sounds like it would go really well with this!

Keep us posted!


----------



## Downwards

Funny you mention the apricot butter- I was thinking of a marmalade incident I had once where I overcooked it because it wouldn't thicken enough. It was never the right consistency, but the flavor was unreal, like an orange caramel. That's exactly what I'm envisioning for bochetomel, lol. 
I'm thinking my first will be bochet honey with some dried apricots that I'll hit with the torch first. Maybe a small batch in case it isn't what I imagine, but then at least 5 gallons in case it IS! 
What a wonderful hobby we all have.


----------



## Downwards

Maybe we should all pick a fruit and do a bochetomel exchange? I'd be down! Of course being a mead, we'd all likely be aging it for a year or so.


----------



## seth8530

I was invisioning a botchet made from buckwheat aged in the secondary with vanilla beans, chocolate nibs, and perhaps some dried currants... oh and oak... Oh yes the oak!


----------



## Downwards

Man that sounds good! I have ingredients for another blackberry jam wine, loquat wine coming (not quite ripe enough), but I think they may get bumped by the bochetomel, apricot or banana- not sure yet. 

1.060 today, a little hotter than I would like at 74 F. But mother nature is not participating at the moment. Also noticed since the foam is gone, it's quite a bit lighter than I thought. My culinary arts background betrayed me I think. In the kitchen it's a bad thing to let sugar smoke, but I think I should have done it longer. Maybe I will back sweeten with some burnt honey at the end.


----------



## seth8530

Just keep us posted on how this goes. This will help us all learn from what you are doing.. Which is a great thing


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

We backsweetened ours with some caremalized honey, really made it good, but now we have to wait for it to clear again! WVMJ



Downwards said:


> Man that sounds good! I have ingredients for another blackberry jam wine, loquat wine coming (not quite ripe enough), but I think they may get bumped by the bochetomel, apricot or banana- not sure yet.
> 
> 1.060 today, a little hotter than I would like at 74 F. But mother nature is not participating at the moment. Also noticed since the foam is gone, it's quite a bit lighter than I thought. My culinary arts background betrayed me I think. In the kitchen it's a bad thing to let sugar smoke, but I think I should have done it longer. Maybe I will back sweeten with some burnt honey at the end.


----------



## Downwards

1.040 today, may rack it into carboys today since a friend wants to make a blackberry jam wine here soon, need the primaries. 

1/3 sugar break, does that mean 1/3 of the sugar gone or only 1/3 of the sugar left? Just curious..


----------



## Kraffty

Downwards, looks like all you'd have to do to make it more burned and smokey is leave it outside for a day or so. Hope the fires aren't close to you. Either way it's almost hot enough to brown it up just by leaving on driveway for a bit.
Mike
"breaking weather report, hot, dry, no wind and no fire here in the San Gabriel Valley......"


----------



## seth8530

1/3 sugar break means 1/3 of all sugars have been fermented. 1.120 to 1.00 is a 120 point drop so the 1/3 sugar break is at 1.080 and the 1/2 is at 1.040. That means you should be making your last nutrient additions about now. I would not rack to secondary until you reach at least 1.010 because of the risk of stalling out your fermentation.


----------



## Downwards

"Downwards, looks like all you'd have to do to make it more burned and smokey is leave it outside for a day or so. Hope the fires aren't close to you."

We aren't close enough to the fire to see anything but the plume of smoke out in the distance. And I think it's heading in the other direction, so we should be fine. I did stay home from school yesterday though, just to weed whack all the dry grasses from around the property and be ready to gather up the dogs if need be, lol. It was far enough away yesterday not to really worry about, but we live in a rural area with lots of brush, and the hot wind was going NUTS. Better safe than sorry. 

Seth, thanks for that excellent explanation! Unfortunately, I've already racked, lol. Fingers crossed it won't make any problems. It is a little less than I thought, so I won't nutrient again, just because that likely means I've already given it pretty near enough. I'd estimate maybe 13.5- 14 gallons. Also I'm still waiting on the Fermaid K to arrive, so it looks like this batch will miss it.


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, it looks like these two batches will miss out on the Fermaid K treatment.. .But who is to say future batches are not envisioned? I have 24 gallons of grape wine planed for this fall as well as at least 12 gallons of mead. at least some of it will be a botchet.


----------



## Downwards

So here it is, actually very near 15 gallons after all. Was hard to say before because I had about 2 + gallons in a 6.5 carboy till I had sterilized a couple of my 1 gallon juice jugs. 
Color is very very light. Even much lighter than it looked as must. 

I am actually considering doing something different with a couple of these. 

One 6.5 gallon will get some really dark honey for back sweetening. 
One 6.5 gallon will get some juice concentrate instead. Don't know what kind yet, I'm about to check out the store. 

And the 1 gallon carboys will be for topping off.


----------



## the_rayway

Wow. It's really 'go big or go home' with you guys, huh?  it looks fabulous!

I keep thinking about toasted nuts...hmmm...wonder if that would work out?


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

Add some chocolate to some? WVMJ


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

There was a guy who did a buckwheat Bochet, he said his house smelt like a barnyard for a week! WVMJ


----------



## Polarhug

Awesome job! Our is black, very black. It's hard to see even the ruby color but it hasn't cleared quite yet... it's STILL fermenting.


----------



## Downwards

And 1.030. Still warmer than I want it to be fermenting.

Edit, no reason to bump again for the SG- Sunday- 10:28 1.025, but much cooler today and it's back in the 60's.


----------



## Downwards

Well, nobody has posted a thing about mead since my last, so I won't worry about bumping this since it's already there at the top. 

1.010 today. It IS slowing down but I'll just let it go its own way, since it's almost there. 

I did change the one 6.5 gallon carboy slightly. I went to the health food store that is local here, and found a bunch of bottles of liquid fruit juice concentrates. I picked up a black cherry and an elderberry that they had. Directions state that they should be reconstituted to not quite a gallon (together) so I don't think it will be overpowering in 6.5 gallons. 
My oak has also arrived, so I'll be ready with it for when the bochets clear.


----------



## seth8530

Very interisting.. what kind of oak did you decide on?


----------



## Downwards

Heavy toast Hungarian


----------



## seth8530

Should be interisting to see what kind of flavours that will give your mead.


----------



## Downwards

Limping along now. Always bubbling, but doesn't SG doesn't move much. It looks like it's clearing already, lots of lees to rack it off of. I'm waiting though, don't want to stop the little bit of action that's happening now. Barely under 1.010, may not get much further I suppose, but then again, there is much further to get, lol.


----------



## YourCaptain

I really should read more threads before I start something.

Nom nom nom... I think the banana bochet sounds incredible. Do you think it will be too late to add into mine? I started it over the past weekend. How many banana's do you think one would need to add to +-4.5 liters bochet?


----------



## Downwards

I don't think it would be too late at all. Have no idea of the amount though, maybe someone else will suggest something. From what I understand, it's a good thing to use really dark ones, and to go ahead and toss in the peels as well. Let me know what you do, and how it turns out! That's high on my list of things to do as well.


----------



## fivebk

Just keep in mind, It takes alot of bananas to get any banana flavor. I would say the darker the banana the more flavor you will get, but at that stage I would not use the peels

BOB


----------



## YourCaptain

I have already aging banana wine. What would happen if I add that to the bochet once it is complete?


----------



## Downwards

The only downside for me with mixing a banana wine would be that it just wouldn't be a mead anymore. If it tastes good, that may be beside the point for you, I would probably just taste a glass mixed and see if it isn't so good that you can't resist breaking the mead "code", lol. 
Then again, maybe you and I both should just start brainstorming on another thread about banana mead and start a small batch later and compare notes.... Actually, looks like a lot of work has been done for us by Deezil on this most excellent thread: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f51/banana-bochet-port-34898/


----------



## saramc

Downwards said:


> The only downside for me with mixing a banana wine would be that it just wouldn't be a mead anymore.



Some will say it would still be mead as long as 51% of your fermentables came from honey. So it would all depend on how much banana wine you blend with your bochet.



YourCaptain said:


> Nom nom nom... I think the banana bochet sounds incredible. Do you think it will be too late to add into mine? I started it over the past weekend. How many banana's do you think one would need to add to +-4.5 liters bochet?



Definitely not too late to add bananas. 

But if you really want to impart banana flavor use nothing but the blackened peel of uber ripened bananas, 1 kg of skins for your +/- 4.5L batch (or 3x the amount of uber ripened fruit plus skins, if you really want to use the fruit itself). Just be sure to remove the stringy things, they are like citrus pith. Make a 'skin soup', strain it/add it, and then place the peels in must for 3-5 days. Amazing how much banana flavor is provided. The fruit would provide more sugar, but the ripened skins alone will bowl you over; plus you will notice your must clears so much easier. You can always freeze the peeled bananas (they make the best instant ice cream if you toss in blender, add a dab of honey, vanilla, or rum) and use elsewhere.


----------



## YourCaptain

Sounds great. I like the peel idea... Just a quick question... What you mean by skin soup?


----------



## saramc

YourCaptain said:


> Sounds great. I like the peel idea... Just a quick question... What you mean by skin soup?



You bring water to almost boiling, add the banana peels, remove from heat, cover and allow to cool to appropriate temperature for addition to must. Strain before adding. It is a common prep for uber ripe bananas too, or apple/pear peels & cores, peach skins. Skin soup.


----------



## seth8530

Yep what saramc said! you just want to be careful what you do this with. Typically, when you boil you tend to lose lots of really awesume flavours. So, be careful what you do this with. However, it works great for bannanas.


----------



## saramc

seth8530 said:


> Yep what saramc said! you just want to be careful what you do this with. Typically, when you boil you tend to lose lots of really awesume flavours. So, be careful what you do this with. However, it works great for bannanas.



I failed to mention, when making skin soup.... upon removal from heat source, COVER the cooking vessel, and ENSURE A GOOD SEAL (so you keep all essential oils and such within as it cools, limited evaporative loss).
You want this to steep for at least 15-20 minutes and then you can plunge into an ice bath if you cannot wait on the natural cooling process. Good point Seth!


----------



## seth8530

Thanks! You also make good points.

I would think that perhaps we could make a "skin soup" without boiling. Perhaps doing a long and slow heating to avoid damaging more delicate flavours? I have not tried this before so it is only a thought...


----------



## Downwards

Heck yeah, that's the concept of sous vide cooking. They seal bags of food in liquid and then drop them into hot water for very long periods of time. Might be worth doing with the banana peels too, imagine "boil in a bag" (though not actually boiling, lower heat, longer cook time) couldn't ask for a better seal.


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, perhaps using canning jars.. But that would take a lot of jars I imagine...


----------



## Downwards

So after clearing, this bochet is MUCH darker. It's still between cream soda and root beer (colored) in the glass, but I'm much happier with it. Great flavor right away, not so much toasted marshmellow, but a big yes on toffee, and caramel honey. The top off gallons have been oaking already in dark toast hungarian and that really adds something special. 
The one with the fruit addition (I added a little concentrate of both elderberry and black cherry) isn't really noticeable in taste, except that it has a little more tartness which is good, but not really better. Maybe it will come out with age. I like them both right now. It did make it much darker though, lol. 

I'm going to have a hard time not drinking this!


----------



## seth8530

So the biggest flavour is toffee and caramel? Makes an apple bochet sound good lol. What does it look like in the glass?


----------



## Downwards

It looks in the glass like a slightly darker cream soda. Or maybe a cross between that and root beer. I'd be happy to pull a glass tomorrow and snap a picture. Heck, then I could drink it.


----------



## seth8530

That would be really cool.. maybe you could even sticknthe glass in the freezer to se if you make some of it clear out for the pic.


----------



## Downwards

What's the freezer do?


----------



## seth8530

It will help clear out the portion of wine you want to show off. Give it a few hours in the fridge and a lot of stuff will start dropping out of suspension force clearing a part of your sample.. Good for photos ya kno lol?


----------



## Downwards

This one is getting really close! 
I did something with the melomel half though that has me puzzled. I was making a dried elderberry wine, and since my fruited bochet was elderberry/black cherry, I decided to use the elderberries to soak in that six gallons after I'd pulled them from the wine. 
Now my bochet was finished and sorbated- yet it started fermenting again. Probably because I had quite a bit of live yeast in the elderberries. Should that have happened or should the yeast have been unable to ferment because of the sorbate? 
It's a moot point now, that fermentation is long since done, but it just makes me wonder for the sake of my understanding. Also should I sorbate again or is it all still present?
The elderberry flavor is much more pronounced now, and that mead is sweeter than the regular batch of bochet, but it tastes great!


----------



## seth8530

If you pulled elderberries that were soaked with live active yeast it should not be all that surprising that it started to referent. Sorbate stops re fermentation, it does not really stop an active strong culture.


----------



## Downwards

I feel like it's ok then, am I right? I know (and can taste) that it needs more aging than its sibling without fruit, but should I add more sorbate or just watch it to make sure it is stable? Second fermentation seems to have totally stopped now.


----------



## seth8530

Just wait it out until it is stable. Not sure if you want to add in more sorbate.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

You add sorbate to a clear wine to stabalize it, it has a very low yeast count when its cleared. Then you add a few billion more yeasts that are already active of course it going to keep going until they run out of sugar and start to drop out. You are going to have to start the stablization process all over again, more KM and more sorbate after it clears. There is a special little bottle of additives for mead makers in some very well stocked home brew supply stores, I think the brand name is patience brother. WVMJ



Downwards said:


> This one is getting really close!
> I did something with the melomel half though that has me puzzled. I was making a dried elderberry wine, and since my fruited bochet was elderberry/black cherry, I decided to use the elderberries to soak in that six gallons after I'd pulled them from the wine.
> Now my bochet was finished and sorbated- yet it started fermenting again. Probably because I had quite a bit of live yeast in the elderberries. Should that have happened or should the yeast have been unable to ferment because of the sorbate?
> It's a moot point now, that fermentation is long since done, but it just makes me wonder for the sake of my understanding. Also should I sorbate again or is it all still present?
> The elderberry flavor is much more pronounced now, and that mead is sweeter than the regular batch of bochet, but it tastes great!


----------



## Downwards

Yeah, I know it's screwy to put fermenting berries in a finished mead, BUT my recipe called for removing them after 3-4 days from the wine or it would be too tannic. Then when I removed them I thought, "Well, I don't wanna just throw them in the compost if they still have flavor!" Catch 22 in a way I suppose. Probably I should just start something new to catch the berries in that situation?


----------

