# Help with small vineyard planning



## ChuckD (Dec 14, 2021)

Having been bitten by the wine making bug, I’m already planning a small vineyard… I already have 24 vines on the way in June.

The space I have in mind is a fallow field that last saw cultivation about 25 years ago. It is gently sloping with a southeast aspect. So do I arrange the rows north-south or parallel to the slope? I think parallel looks better.

I was thinking about using the Geneva double trellis system so I have a 12 -foot row spacing. I figured with a 7-foot plant spacing I would have room here for about 80 vines which should be more than enough for me. I would have the entire area sprayed, chisel plowed, disked and dragged flat this spring. I’ll plant it all in grass so it’s ready if I expand.

I would appreciate any feedback.


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## VinesnBines (Dec 14, 2021)

I ran my vines on the North - South direction. My vineyard faces due South. It is balmy and warm on a sunny 30 degree day. My slope can be as much as 23 degrees. Average slope is 17 degrees so we went up and down the slope.


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## ChuckD (Dec 14, 2021)

Is there really a benefit running them N-S? The few large trees along the marsh are soon to be dead thanks to Mr Emerald Ash Borer so I will have full exposure to the south. I have nothing like the slopes you have so erosion isn’t a concern. I just thought a diagonal placement in the space looked nice.

what kind of plant and row spacing do you prefer?


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## ibglowin (Dec 14, 2021)

In the "olden days" you wanted to plant along the N-S so you maximized sun exposure and you had a better chance of ripening grapes fully. These days with the temp extremes and heat spikes we are seeing these days that may no longer be the best idea. Looks like you have a nice compromise there. Its not about what looks better ascetically its about what will grow the best fruit in the end.

Also what ar you growing? Cold Hardy? Vinifera? The trellis system depends on the grape variety really. 



ChuckD said:


> Having been bitten by the wine making bug, I’m already planning a small vineyard… I already have 24 vines on the way in June.
> 
> The space I have in mind is a fallow field that last saw cultivation about 25 years ago. It is gently sloping with a southeast aspect. So do I arrange the rows north-south or parallel to the slope? I think parallel looks better.
> 
> ...


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## ChuckD (Dec 14, 2021)

I have ordered 12 Marquette and 12 Marechal Foch vines to start. I’m in NE Wisconsin. zone 4b although a newer map upgrades me to 5a. A UW Extension grape publication recommend single or double wire.


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## ChuckD (Dec 14, 2021)

Also these things are pretty pricey. Do most growers produce their own vines?


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## ibglowin (Dec 14, 2021)

Your new but there is a wealth of info on this website on most every aspect of growing cold hardy grapes. Most of it from @grapeman (Rich). He has not been around much the last couple of years dealing with some health issues etc but he has several amazing threads on things from starting a vineyard from the beginning to his SARE sponsored research on cold hardy grape trellis system (and which are best).






Hid-In-Pines Vineyard


Visit our vineyard and winery located in Morrisonville, NY to sample some wines made from our grapes.



hipvineyard.com










Vineyard From the Beginning- Grapeman


I am beginning a new thread to sort of document planting a new vineyard from beginning forward. The methods I use here are not standard issue, but are using methods I have gleaned from my 45 years of farming, ag college and working in research trials, including my own. Don't expect it to begin...




www.winemakingtalk.com








ChuckD said:


> I have ordered 12 Marquette and 12 Marechal Foch vines to start. I’m in NE Wisconsin. zone 4b although a newer map upgrades me to 5a. A UW Extension grape publication recommend single or double wire.


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## ChuckD (Dec 14, 2021)

Thanks. I went through the vineyard from the beginning post but need to spend some more time there. I got the grape recommendations from other Wisconsin growers. These might not be the only vines. Just the first. I did not notice anything on recommended trellis systems for cold weather.


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## GSMChris (Dec 14, 2021)

I'm planning to go East West with my vines - in part to align with the rows in the neighboring vineyard - but mostly 1) shorten the rows making trellising easier and 2) to have a reasonably flat row for irrigation as the drop from one end to the other might be a problem from a pressure point of view if I went down the hill (e.g. North South)


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## VinesnBines (Dec 14, 2021)

I have mostly hybrids, several varieties including Marquette and Foch. I'm in zone 6a but late frosts and freezes have been my biggest problem (well until the racoons wiped out my first crop).

If you order 50 vines (mix and match) the price really drops.

I planted my first 1/4 acre at 9 feet between rows and 6 feet between the vines. My equipment operator (husband) complained and insisted on 10 feet between the rows. Since he hit a trellis post with the tractor in the 9 foot rows, I decided he is right. So my spacing is 10 feet between the rows and 6 feet between the vines.

I'm going with VSP, easier and netting will be easier. Netting is required.


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## franc1969 (Dec 14, 2021)

ChuckD said:


> Also these things are pretty pricey. Do most growers produce their own vines?


Many people do produce their own if price sensitive. I am trying a grafting project later to make my own vines, but I will be very small. It's more an issue of finding what i want when i want it, and since I am just doing a backyard , I can be slower. Same as my apples.
Do be careful of what you plant and grow yourself- some vines are patented or don't grow well own-rooted and it may be simpler to buy them. I've bought the few euro vines I wanted, will try rooting American or hybrid types.
Also, look through for different growers. I've found a few that were cheaper, they mostly cater to industry.


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## GSMChris (Dec 14, 2021)

I've also seen a tremendous range of prices (as much as 30%) from grower to grower. On top of that, some growers offer discounts for volume, others don't. I ended up building a spreadsheet!!!


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## ChuckD (Dec 14, 2021)

Ok I’m going to have to get to my
Laptop and do some research on trellising systems. I don’t even know what half of the system acronyms refer to. Let alone how they are laid out.


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## ChuckD (Dec 15, 2021)

Well, I stayed up way too late researching trellising systems and have determined that it's mind boggling . I saved a bunch of documents to review and bookmarked numerous sites. I found the Northern Grapes Project which seems to have a lot of good information. I gather from what I have read that I can plant my grapes this spring, but I don't have to put up the trellis until the following year... that's good because it may take me that long to figure out which system I should use!


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## VinesnBines (Dec 15, 2021)

HA! I did the same thing and ultimately decided to go with simple. You should be fine with waiting on the trellis for a year with a small number of vines. I learned the hard way to dig the trellis post holes when I dig the holes for the vines. (We auger in due to heavy clay and fairly steep slope - top soil washed to the bottom of the hill about 60 years ago so the grass stays.) My first 1/4 we just dug the vine holes and I had to set all trellis posts by hand. Now we dig all holes in a row and go back and set the trellis posts. I'm now stringing catch wires for the VSP.

A vineyard is a pleasure if you like growing things and working outside. If you don't like heat, cold, bugs, hard work and can't tolerate disappointment, wildlife damage and uncooperative weather, find another hobby/job.


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## Obbnw (Dec 15, 2021)

We did a similar addition and added a nice wide basement entrance. I really love the wide entrance. We also made it with 8' ceilings even though the existing basement is 7'. We step down going from old to new basement. The 8' ceilings are nice.

Does your place or the neighbors farm have a stone pile? If I had easy access to stones I'd stack them up and create 12' level surfaces and plant the vines closer to the rock wall which could offer some freeze protection and personally I like the looks of terraced rows.


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## ChuckD (Dec 15, 2021)

Do I have rocks! Ha!!!




This was one of my spring projects. I partially disassembled one of my dry-laid retaining walls to add a planting bed. All of the rocks have come from stone piles on my property and I haven’t made a dent in them.

I never thought of the stone wall microclimate but it would be helpful. I planted hot peppers in this bed and they loved the extra heat. The land isn’t very steep however so I wouldn’t need much of a terrace… only a foot or so for each row.


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## Obbnw (Dec 15, 2021)

ChuckD said:


> Do I have rocks! Ha!!!
> 
> View attachment 82285
> 
> ...



My wife grew up on a farm in Wisconsin, she talks about stone picking the fields - they have a giant stone pile, figured you probably had one too. Nice job on the wall. You could overbuild the wall a foot, maybe it would hold the snow and insulate the ground a bit. My yard is on about a 4.5% slope. I added a few 18" walls and leveled it out, really added to the "feel" of the yard. Gives sense of space and makes it a little more dynamic.


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## wood1954 (Dec 15, 2021)

Whatever trellis system you use make sure it’s easy to trim during the summer. Marquette grows really wild. I’m in the process of making my wines use only the top wire. I used to pick my grapes at Mitchell vineyard in Oregon, Wi, they have clay soil and on some plants I could pick 25 pounds of grapes. Even that heavily cropped crop, my wine had good body. On my soil which is sand I could get that poundage on some plants, but the resulting wine is much thinner so I’m going to try controlling my crop to get better quality. Just mentioned that as it seems soil is very important, Rio Lobo winery in Weyauwega has clay soil and their wine has really good body also.


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## ChuckD (Dec 15, 2021)

My soil is pretty heavy. Folks around here call it clay but it’s not like that stuff in the fox valley that you can use to cast pottery. When wet it’s plenty greasy… and did I mention rocks? I have lots of rocks. I’m going to see if the farmer who rents my land has an auger for his tractor because digging a hole here is not for the faint hearted.


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## Ct Winemaker (Dec 15, 2021)

Take a look at Double A vineyards. Vine prices are very reasonable, and their web site is very helpful for making decisions, including trellis system.


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## ChuckD (Dec 15, 2021)

I did end up ordering my vines from Double A. Both varieties I chose list Top Wire Cordon as the recommended trellis system. Part of my confusion is not being familiar with the abbreviations and not being able to picture them in my head. I have also seen some conflicting information on different sites concerning the same grapes including the VSP for Marquette. Right now, I'm leaning towards simple, and it looks like TWC or the Umbrella Kniffin are leading the pack. I hope to see some vineyards and talk to some vine growers before I decide.

I also decided to angle the rows as shown in the drawing, mainly for aesthetic reasons. I like Obbnw's idea of putting in low rock walls and terracing the site. It might not make a difference in growth or production but it sure would look nice and hey, I need the exercise.


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## VinesnBines (Dec 16, 2021)

Double A is my source. They have suffered low stock last year and this. Fortunately they are planning ahead and encouraging orders for 2023 and beyond. I love the prices and their service. I've called and begged for vines and got results. 

As for large growers rooting and grafting their own vines, that is not an industry practice due to the need for clean, certified vines. Disease transmission is a huge worry and no one wants to lose acres from the start. It is bad enough once the vines are growing. Also, rooting and grafting takes manpower, time and space that most growers don't have. I can root on a hobby basis but my success rate is limited and I prefer certainty.

Anyway, excellent choice with Double A!


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## jackl (Dec 19, 2021)

I'm in upstate NY, zone 4b around 20 miles East of the Finger Lakes, a major wine growing region. My site isn't ideal for grapes from both location and soil perspectives, so over the years I've experimented with a number of cold hardy wine grape varieties, trellis systems, and vineyard management practices. 

I first experimented with concords, but transitioned to wine grapes and planted Lacrosse, Traminette, Frontenac and Marquette. Frontenac is a vigorous grower with small loosely bunched berries, but it was a pain to manage and also susceptible to Black Rot. I pulled those last spring and planted Marquette. For reds, I've now pretty much settled on Marquette. 

As for whites, I have some Traminette, but the winters have not been kind to them! I also have Lacrosse, but I've had a hard time getting them to ripen to an acceptable brix level. I may pull those this spring and plant more Marquette or Traminette. 

My rows are oriented North/South. At the recommendation of a friend who owns a very large vineyard in the Fingerlakes as well as research from Cornell, I've settled on VSP with quadrilateral canes and 2 fruiting wires and 3 catch wires on each side. This gives me 2 fruiting zones. This is an easy trellis system to set up and while you have to move wires up and tuck in vines as they grow, it's really not an issue at my scale.

To protect against cold winter vine loss, each vine has 2 main trunks. This way, if I loose one, I can rely on the other as a backup. I prune each of the 4 canes to about 6 buds per cane, or 24 buds per plant. I keep detailed track of my yields and average around 16-22 pounds per vine (as long as I bird net in time!).

With our short summers, to maximize sugar content and get my pH up to an acceptable level, I keep my vines trimmed during the summer, and as the summer progresses leaf prune to get sun exposure. While the Marquette's are fairly disease resistant, I also practice a regimented fungicide application program based on reports from the Cornell weather/disease site. My major insect damage comes from Japanese beetles in mid/late summer which I control with insecticide. 

Enjoy, but as an owner of a nursery once told me, life is too short so if you have a plant you dont like pull it out and plant something else!


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## ChuckD (Dec 19, 2021)

Thanks jakle

I’m still working on the design. I have been told by my wife that I need to include blackberries as well as they make Some Of her favorite wines. I have a book coming in the mail on raising grapes in cold climates by Plocher for some light winter reading. Hopefully it has some good information on varieties and trellising. I probably have room for 80 or 90 vines total so I hope to get the whole area prepared this year and fill it in over the next few.

what kind of plant and row spacing do you have?


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## Vern (Dec 20, 2021)

ChuckD said:


> Thanks jakle
> 
> I’m still working on the design. I have been told by my wife that I need to include blackberries as well as they make Some Of her favorite wines. I have a book coming in the mail on raising grapes in cold climates by Plocher for some light winter reading. Hopefully it has some good information on varieties and trellising. I probably have room for 80 or 90 vines total so I hope to get the whole area prepared this year and fill it in over the next few.
> 
> what kind of plant and row spacing do you have?


I am in SE Wisconsin. With Marquette, petite pearl and verona varieties. Planted north and south, 9 feet rows and 7.5 feet spacing. Works good for me.


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## ChuckD (Dec 20, 2021)

Vern said:


> I am in SE Wisconsin. With Marquette, petite pearl and verona varieties. Planted north and south, 9 feet rows and 7.5 feet spacing. Works good for me.



How do you like the petite pearl. This is one I see coming up a lot with northern growers along with Marquette. I’m no purist (hell I’m still making my first batch of grape wine and it’s from wild grapes) so I’m ok with blending, adding sugar, mixing with other fruits, back sweetening etc. Actually I’m learning a lot and only recently realized you can’t make Merlot from Marquette grapes . I just want to make good wine that my wife and I like to drink. That typically means semi-sweet. So far I have had good success with fruits and want to step up to grapes.


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## ChuckD (Dec 20, 2021)

p


VinesnBines said:


> Double A is my source. They have suffered low stock last year and this. Fortunately they are planning ahead and encouraging orders for 2023 and beyond. I love the prices and their service. I've called and begged for vines and got results.
> 
> As for large growers rooting and grafting their own vines, that is not an industry practice due to the need for clean, certified vines. Disease transmission is a huge worry and no one wants to lose acres from the start. It is bad enough once the vines are growing. Also, rooting and grafting takes manpower, time and space that most growers don't have. I can root on a hobby basis but my success rate is limited and I prefer certainty.
> 
> Anyway, excellent choice with Double A!



I see in a different post you mention that you cover your Foch vines. I assume this is for protection from cold. Is this something I would have to do in zone 4b? If so I’ll probably rethink that choice and change that order to a different cultivar.


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## VinesnBines (Dec 20, 2021)

I cover ALL my grafted vines. I mound dirt up over the graft to protect from freezing and YES in any zone where temperatures fall below freezing, grafted vines should be covered regardless of the variety. Foch is supposed to be very winter hardy so if self - rooted (not grafted) you should not need to worry about covering. I prefer self-rooted because of the labor needed to cover the vines and the short time between growing season and freezing season - sometimes just a day. 

The purpose of covering is to prevent freezing. If the sap freezes and bursts the trunk at the graft, crown gall (which is soil borne) can infect the vines and over time the vine will die and other vines can be infected with crown gall. Tall grafted vines do not need to be covered. The graft is 12 inches above the ground and the risk of soil borne crown gall is greatly reduced.

On the other hand, vinifera varieties need to be grafted to protected from root phylloxera so there is no choice but cover or buy the (expensive) tall grafted vines.


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## Vern (Dec 20, 2021)

ChuckD said:


> How do you like the petite pearl. This is one I see coming up a lot with northern growers along with Marquette. I’m no purist (hell I’m still making my first batch of grape wine and it’s from wild grapes) so I’m ok with blending, adding sugar, mixing with other fruits, back sweetening etc. Actually I’m learning a lot and only recently realized you can’t make Merlot from Marquette grapes . I just want to make good wine that my wife and I like to drink. That typically means semi-sweet. So far I have had good success with fruits and want to step up to grapes.


My first wine from grapes was pure Marquette, wine was ok. Next time I added 30% petite pearl and wine was good. Now that I added verona to the mix the wine is outstanding. I'm no expert wine person just my opinion. If you are ever around the lake geneva area, pm me and we can taste some.


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## ChuckD (Jan 16, 2022)

So I’m still doing some vineyard planning. I have decided to lay out my rows so they are more north-south. The three or four shorter rows on the left of the photo are going to be blackberry canes. I’ll still have space for about 90 vines with 9-foot row spacing and 7-foot plant spacing. 

I have two questions.How much space should I leave between the vineyard and the field? The picture has 20 feet. Are grapes very susceptible to herbicide drift? Also, do I need to control wild grapes for some distance from the vineyard? They are everywhere around here.


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## ibglowin (Jan 16, 2022)

Yes grapes are incredibly susceptible to herbicide spray drift. You should talk with your neighbor now if you haven't already and let them know your planting grapes and ask for their help in the Spring. If the wind is blowing in the right direction and hard enough herbicide can drift for as much as a mile.



ChuckD said:


> So I’m still doing some vineyard planning. I have decided to lay out my rows so they are more north-south. The three or four shorter rows on the left of the photo are going to be blackberry canes. I’ll still have space for about 90 vines with 9-foot row spacing and 7-foot plant spacing.
> 
> I have two questions.How much space should I leave between the vineyard and the field? The picture has 20 feet. Are grapes very susceptible to herbicide drift? Also, do I need to control wild grapes for some distance from the vineyard? They are everywhere around here.
> 
> View attachment 83415


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## ChuckD (Jan 16, 2022)

The field is my property. I rent it to a neighbor. I was going to enlist him in tilling the field, which has been fallow for 20 years. I know he contracts his spraying out, or the Co-op does it. I actually had a problem with the spray several years ago. He burned the leaves on apple trees nearly 40 yards from the field. I talked to him and it hasn’t happened since.

I’ll definitely talk to him and post signs so the spray-guy knows. And wild grapes must be pretty resistant. The trees on the field edges are full of vines.


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## Joe B. (Jan 17, 2022)

You sure have been provided a lot of good information, the only thing I would add if your in an area with a deer population you will need a deer fence. They will destroy a young vineyard in no time


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

Joe B. said:


> if your in an area with a deer population you will need a deer fence. They will destroy a young vineyard in no time


Really??  . I’m kinda on the edge of good farm country with ample woods and wetlands so yeah… we have lots of deer. I’m in a perpetual show-no-mercy war with rabbits and have them under control but I still have to erect a fence around the garden every year to keep the deer out. I hadn’t planned on 600 feet of deer fence right now. Could I get away with caging the vines for the first year? Also, do chickens and grapevines get along? Could I free-range my hens in the enclosure?


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## montanarick (Jan 17, 2022)

i fenced my Montana vineyard with 5' welded wire mesh and it was very effective in keeping the deer out. put chicken wire cages around the young vines to deter rabbits.


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

montanarick said:


> i fenced my Montana vineyard with 5' welded wire mesh and it was very effective in keeping the deer out. put chicken wire cages around the young vines to deter rabbits.


I fence the garden With a 5’ temporary fence in the summer but it’s a small enclosure and deer don’t seem to like jumping into a small fenced area. Around here most people put in an 8-foot high-tensile fence for deer. I’m surprised deer like grape vines but I should have known. The list of what they won’t eat is quite small.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 17, 2022)

I have tremendous deer pressure and grow tubes have been my protection from deer and rabbits. The deer will prune some of the vines that come out of the top of the tubes but the vines recover. They will also prune the young growth on the older vines but since i have to hedge the vines I count it as free labor. I’ve been lucky so far. I have 1.5 acres with vines from 1 year old to 4 years old.
I’ve been thinking of deer fence but haven’t pulled the trigger.


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I have tremendous deer pressure and grow tubes have been my protection from deer and rabbits. The deer will prune some of the vines that come out of the top of the tubes but the vines recover. They will also prune the young growth on the older vines but since i have to hedge the vines I count it as free labor. I’ve been lucky so far. I have 1.5 acres with vines from 1 year old to 4 years old.
> I’ve been thinking of deer fence but haven’t pulled the trigger.


Thanks. I feel better about it now! I have my first 24 vines arriving this spring and I didn’t budget for a deer fence. Did you use grow tubes right from the start? How tall are the tubes? I see you use the VSP trellising but a lot of the studies for Marquette say to go with a high wire system. That should make the vines harder for the deer to brows, no?


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## VinesnBines (Jan 17, 2022)

I put 36 inch grow tubes on the vines as soon as they are in the ground. For a second year vine, I use a 24 inch grow tube (easier to get on and off). I leave the tubes on until sometime in September (whenever I get a chance to get them off). The Blue X tubes are fine for first year vines and can be reused but they are a devil to get off the second year vines. I ended up having to slit the outer blue vinyl to get them off. Since then I have been using the blue tubes on the first year vines and Plantra wrap around tubes for the second year vines. I'm expanding by 250 to 300 vines a year so I keep reusing the tubes.

Deer can reach really high so I don't think the trellis system will be much protection. They will stand on their hind legs to reach fruit so I expect they would nibble fresh growth at 6 feet. A dog roaming the vineyard at night will probably help. 

I think I would keep the chickens out of the vineyard, certainly after you start to get a crop. Everything like grapes; birds, turkeys, racoons, deer, fox, bear, I'm sure chickens will eat grapes too.


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

Deer 
Turkey’s 
racoons ✔
Bear 
Fox ✔ (really, even fox?)

I’m doomed! Glad I’m only planning for about 100 vines. 

How do you keep raccoons out. No fence is going to work. I see what they do to sweet corn around here. It isn’t pretty.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 17, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Fox ✔ (really, even fox?)



Sure! See my avatar (and the associated fable)!


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## VinesnBines (Jan 17, 2022)

Raccoons? I’m trying to figure it out. They got my first harvest this year. I didn’t use netting because I stupidly thought I might not need it. 
Netting first then noise making, for birds and other critters. Probably a radio or two on a talk station. Have to move them around. Motion lights maybe. Guns and traps; coyote urine, coyotes?


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

I think they would figure out lights and noise within a day or two. I do have some raccoon cuffs to trap them when they start bothering the chickens. I guess I’ll deploy them around the vineyard too. Small doses of lead work well but difficult to deliver when they are hitting crops in the middle of the night.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 17, 2022)

Racoons won't be a problem until you have grapes that just start to ripen. They don't bother the vines. You will do well though to thin out the ranks as best you can.

Yes, the noise and lights need to move about. I'm hoping netting will help the most.


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I'm expanding by 250 to 300 vines a year so I keep reusing the tubes.


With that many vines I assume you have a winery? Could I ask why you prefer the VSP system? It seems, to my inexperienced self, like a lot more work than the top wire cordon. I have also read some studies where TWC outperformes VSP. I don’t plan on having enough vines to make the extra work a big issue but at scale it seems like a bigger deal.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 17, 2022)

No winery yet. I only planted 240 vines the first year (2019) and those vines had a small crop this past year that was harvested by the racoons. If I ever get a decent crop, we'll see whether I sell grapes or start a small winery. One and a half acres is not a large vineyard so I'm aiming for at least 3 or 4 acres. Once I get the vines producing, I can't expect much more than two tons an acre. A ton of grapes will yields about two barrels or 120 gallons so 3 acres would only yield 300 to 400 cases. Even the smallest wineries produce about 800 to 1000 cases a year. We are still learning and trying to get established. I do love every minute spent in the vineyard (save the discovery of the racoon harvest and the Great Mother's Day freeze).

I considered TWC but I have different varieties throughout the vineyard, some will do better on TWC and others on VSP. I'm going with VSP for ease of netting, spraying with a tractor mounted sprayer and ease of harvest. I'm not keen on reaching overhead to harvest. I'm trying to plan netting and have decided that fruit zone netting will be the best. Overhead netting will be a problem with mowing; my husband does the mowing and he will get tangled in the netting (I've spent many hours under mowers unwinding wire, string, hoses...). 

I don't think tucking vines will be tremendously labor intensive. I'm walking along the rows constantly and assessing the vines, checking for disease, bugs, damage, pulling leaves, cluster thinning, spraying weeds, tying vines, so tucking vines is just another action. I can always change to TWC or mid wire if I chose. Just run a cane to the higher wire. 

One other (sort of secret) reason for VSP is what the public expects a vineyard to look like. A huge business for wineries and vineyards is as a wedding venue. That is why I'm using wooden trellis posts. Metal posts would be so much easier to install and would last longer but don't look pretty in a picture.


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## ChuckD (Jan 17, 2022)

Thanks for the detailed answers. I’ll have to do a little more research on trellis systems. I’m trying to picture how the netting would differ on TWC vs VSP. I assumed you would have to go over the top of everything no matter what.

The area I’m converting to vineyard is only about 0.4 acres and some of that will be berries. I’m getting fired up. All of this vineyard and garden planning is good “winter work”!

Chuck


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## VinesnBines (Jan 18, 2022)

Vineyard Netting : The Comprehensive Guide (2021)


Vineyard netting is a technique to prevent birds. It is made up of HDPE Knitted Netting that comes in different shapes, sizes, and forms.




eyouagro.com




This site shows overhead netting and side netting. Overhead netting would be what you use for TWC and side (generally) for VSP.


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## Joe B. (Jan 18, 2022)

I didn't install a deer fence until my third year and the first 2 years I tried every thing. ( 3 dogs, motion lights, spray on deer deterrent etc.) You can't train a vine that is getting eaten. I went with deer fencing with a top wire. I think I'm at 7+ foot in height, why for the effort and expense go any lower? Those first 2 years sucked after the fence all I had to deal with were gophers, raccoons, birds and fungicidal sprays. Like you I didn't plan on a deer fence but it was worth every penny.


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## Benjie (Jan 25, 2022)

I plan on using solar powered electric fencing around my vineyard. A wire @ 5' will deter deer, and a wire @ 12" to 18" would deter raccoons and foxes. Works great for keeping my 2000 pound percheron in his pasture.


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## ChuckD (Jan 25, 2022)

Benjie said:


> I plan on using solar powered electric fencing around my vineyard. A wire @ 5' will deter deer, and a wire @ 12" to 18" would deter raccoons and foxes. Works great for keeping my 2000 pound percheron in his pasture.


I have not seen the 5-foot wire thing for deer. I regularly see deer in my neighbors pasture that has a hi-tensile electric fence (three-wire fence. probably 40” high) When I see them run they don’t typically jump over the fence. They shoot right between wires. Up here it seems to be 8- foot fencing. Goat panel on the bottom and high tensile wires about a foot apart to the top.


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## ChuckD (Jan 25, 2022)

And yeah. I hadn’t thought about electrifying the fence. A low wire should deter raccoons fairly well. But wild animals are not livestock. I have been on farms standing face-to-face with an enraged bull with a single electric wire between us!  It was terrifying, but the bull respected that fence. The farmer just paused and said “he doesn’t seem to like you too much” and smiled.


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## Benjie (Jan 25, 2022)

I have not seen the 5-foot wire thing for deer.

I say about 5 feet because that's about where a wire would touch a deer on his throat. 48" would probably work better though. Wild or domestic, 8000 volts will send any animal to the moon.


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## ChuckD (Jan 25, 2022)

Benjie said:


> I have not seen the 5-foot wire thing for deer.
> 
> I say about 5 feet because that's about where a wire would touch a deer on his throat. 48" would probably work better though. Wild or domestic, 8000 volts will send any animal to the moon.


The problem is deer can jump really high. From standing they can hop over a 6-foot high fence with no problem. And they seem to sense the electricity. If they really want to get in you’ll need eight feet.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 29, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> The problem is deer can jump really high. From standing they can hop over a 6-foot high fence with no problem. And they seem to sense the electricity. If they really want to get in you’ll need eight feet.


I have been reading about the 3D electric fence. This is a good explanation of the principle. How to Protect your Food Plots with an Electric Fence

I haven't tried it because of conflicting reports of effectiveness. This is another resource that explains deer deterrent. Fencing to Exclude Deer

Has anyone tried the 3d electric? All I know to keep deer out is a 12 foot wire fence with electric wire on top.


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## ChuckD (Jan 29, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I have been reading about the 3D electric fence. This is a good explanation of the principle. How to Protect your Food Plots with an Electric Fence
> 
> I haven't tried it because of conflicting reports of effectiveness. This is another resource that explains deer deterrent. Fencing to Exclude Deer
> 
> Has anyone tried the 3d electric? All I know to keep deer out is a 12 foot wire fence with electric wire on top.


I have never heard of the 3-D fencing. It’s interesting and looks a lot cheaper than the high fence. 

I’ll definitely check into it a little more. I might have to talk to the local wildlife control guy.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 29, 2022)

I think the 3d might work well for a small area. It looks like you need to take it down in the "off seasons" and change it up so the deer think it is new.


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## ChuckD (Jan 29, 2022)

Well for now I’ll plan on grow tubes the first year. We will see where it goes from there. I’m now up to room for about 140 vines with room for berries and several more apple trees. For years I’ve been planning on building a pavilion with outdoor fireplace and pizza oven in the backyard. That’s the yellow rectangle. It means I would have to move my garden beds too. The dashed line is 600 feet of fence I would need to enclose the vineyard, garden, orchard, and back yard.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 29, 2022)

You are off to a good start. You have a lot of advice but you need to figure it out for your site. See how it goes. Learning by doing is the best education. I have taken viticulture courses of all stages but nothing beats standing in the vineyard, starting at a vine (or 200, 400, 1000) and trying to envision how this vine should be pruned.

If your soil is heavy, do plan on an auger for planting. We have a steep slope and both red and yellow clay. If we use a plow, the danger is erosion (severe washing off) of the top soil (happened in the past - the reason my garden has 2 feet of top soil). If I was digging by hand, I would still be planting the first 1/4 acre.

Many things to consider and you WILL do something you regret. Just go with the flow and enjoy the process.


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## ChuckD (Jan 29, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> You are off to a good start. You have a lot of advice but you need to figure it out for your site. See how it goes. Learning by doing is the best education. I have taken viticulture courses of all stages but nothing beats standing in the vineyard, starting at a vine (or 200, 400, 1000) and trying to envision how this vine should be pruned.
> 
> If your soil is heavy, do plan on an auger for planting. We have a steep slope and both red and yellow clay. If we use a plow, the danger is erosion (severe washing off) of the top soil (happened in the past - the reason my garden has 2 feet of top soil). If I was digging by hand, I would still be planting the first 1/4 acre.
> 
> Many things to consider and you WILL do something you regret. Just go with the flow and enjoy the process.



Thanks for all the advice. The soil is a clay loam that was farmed for many years so there’s a good 10” of topsoil and not so steep that I need to worry about erosion before I get the grass established. This spring the neighbor who farms the field is going to plow, disk, and drag. Then I’ll plant grass in on the whole 1/2 acre. I don’t have an auger so I’ll be digging by hand. It’s not too bad with a breaker bar since most of the rock is smaller than a softball. How deep do you need the hole for vines? 

I’ll start two rows of vines this year, a short row each of blackberries and raspberries, and 4 to 6 apples. Hoping to retire in four years. then I can start on the big projects!!


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## BigDaveK (Jan 29, 2022)

As far as the deer go, I have never had a problem with them and my vines in 10+ years. They love my hostas but Liquid Fence works great. The only thing I can think of that protects my grapes is that they like my apple trees a LOT more. Raccoons too. My trees are maybe 150 feet from the vines. Maybe planting a sacrificial fruit that they like MORE would work.


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## ChuckD (Jan 29, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> Maybe planting a sacrificial fruit that they like MORE would work.


That would be my vegetable garden

What kind of vines do you have?


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## VinesnBines (Jan 29, 2022)

When planting my vines, I auger a 12 inch diameter hole about 12 to 18 inches deep. This breaks up the soil for the roots. I’ve never trimmed roots and the vines do fine.


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## BigDaveK (Jan 30, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> That would be my vegetable garden
> 
> What kind of vines do you have?


 
Ah, my vegetable garden is a different story. 6 foot fence that is also buried almost a foot in the ground. I still get the odd groundhog and I'm absolutely certain they have teleportation technology.

I was so careful when I planted my vines and everything was labeled. A job and life intervened. I have the original packaging somewhere in my barn and maybe I'll find them. I'm at that age where I remember song lyrics from the 60's, 70's, and 80's but forget why I went into a room. I know I have some Concord and Catawba but the other 4 varieties are a mystery right now.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 30, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I was so careful when I planted my vines and everything was labeled. A job and life intervened. I have the original packaging somewhere in my barn and maybe I'll find them. I'm at that age where I remember song lyrics from the 60's, 70's, and 80's but forget why I went into a room. I know I have some Concord and Catawba but the other 4 varieties are a mystery right now.


I'm in the process of labeling and tagging. I have 18 different varieties and 1100 vines; my oldest son warned me last year to get them labeled or when I'm dead, they will just have "grapes". Anyway , I have it mapped out on paper and in my brain, now I'm tagging rows and where I have an oddity, I'm tagging the individual vines. 

Where did you get your vines? Double A usually has a record of orders and I have my orders in email and saved on my PC. That really helps me remember which vines are in what rows and how many in a row. 

I'm also learning the difference by sight of the leaves and growth habit.


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## ChuckD (Jan 30, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I was so careful when I planted my vines and everything was labeled.


Yeah. For me it seems even labeling isn’t fool proof. I label all my plants in the garden and lose half of them by the end of the year. Last year I somehow mixed up the labels on my tomato plants while repotting and my 8 early girls ended up being cherry tomatoes! 
EIGHT CHERRY TOMATOES!!


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## VinesnBines (Jan 30, 2022)

I bought a stamp kit and two inch aluminum blanks for the grapes. I always lose the plant markers in the garden, For the vineyard, I'm nailing the tags to the trellis posts. For the individual vines I'm going to hook them to the fruiting wire.


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## GSMChris (Jan 30, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I bought a stamp kit and two inch aluminum blanks for the grapes. I always lose the plant markers in the garden, For the vineyard, I'm nailing the tags to the trellis posts. For the individual vines I'm going to hook them to the fruiting wire.



Hi VinesnBines:

That is what I am planning to do as well. In my case, all vines will be trellised and each row will have only one varietal so a tag on the end post will suffice. Where did you get your tags and stamp kit? I've been shopping locally and haven't found anything appropriate.

GSMChris


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## VinesnBines (Jan 30, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Hi VinesnBines:
> 
> That is what I am planning to do as well. In my case, all vines will be trellised and each row will have only one varietal so a tag on the end post will suffice. Where did you get your tags and stamp kit? I've been shopping locally and haven't found anything appropriate.
> 
> GSMChris



Amazon of course.
Amazon Basics Stamp Kit


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077K74X4D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


RMP Stamping Blanks 2 inch 14 gouge with hole, 50 pieces.





Amazon.com: RMP Stamping Blanks, 2 Inch Round with Hole, Aluminum 0.063 Inch (14 Ga.) - 50 Pack : Arts, Crafts & Sewing


Buy RMP Stamping Blanks, 2 Inch Round with Hole, Aluminum 0.063 Inch (14 Ga.) - 50 Pack: Metal Stamping Tools - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


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## GSMChris (Jan 30, 2022)

Where else indeed.... Thanks


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## VinesnBines (Jan 30, 2022)

I financed Bezos's flight to space.


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## BigDaveK (Jan 30, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I'm in the process of labeling and tagging. I have 18 different varieties and 1100 vines; my oldest son warned me last year to get them labeled or when I'm dead, they will just have "grapes". Anyway , I have it mapped out on paper and in my brain, now I'm tagging rows and where I have an oddity, I'm tagging the individual vines.
> 
> Where did you get your vines? Double A usually has a record of orders and I have my orders in email and saved on my PC. That really helps me remember which vines are in what rows and how many in a row.
> 
> I'm also learning the difference by sight of the leaves and growth habit.


 WOW, I'm jealous! I'm a bit shy of 50 vines but I hope to change that this year.

For the life of me I can't remember where I got them. Not mail order and not big box. That's one of those things I'll remember in the shower or while doing something else that's mindless.

I noticed I have 5 or 6 obviously different leaves. Maybe I can narrow down what they are that way. I've identified about 55 kinds of trees on my property with a couple more to go so I have "experience".

BTW, each year I can grape leaves early in the year to make dolmades, stuffed grape leaves.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 30, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> WOW, I'm jealous! I'm a bit shy of 50 vines but I hope to change that this year.
> 
> For the life of me I can't remember where I got them. Not mail order and not big box. That's one of those things I'll remember in the shower or while doing something else that's mindless.
> 
> ...


Don't overdo. We have settled on 250 - 300 per year as a workable number to plant each year. We planted nearly 600 our second year and it too 10 days to get them in the ground. With 250 - 300, and dry weather, we manage to finish in about three days.


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## BigDaveK (Jan 31, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Don't overdo. We have settled on 250 - 300 per year as a workable number to plant each year. We planted nearly 600 our second year and it too 10 days to get them in the ground. With 250 - 300, and dry weather, we manage to finish in about three days.


Time is the big issue. (Well, energy too.) I hope to propagate what I have from this years trimming. I'll put them in pots and see what I get. That buys me some time. My primary project this spring is increasing the size of my vegetable garden.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 31, 2022)

Time is precious. I’m still working and live most of the time, 6 hours from my main vineyard. I have to take vacation to plant.


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## jackl (Jan 31, 2022)

My vineyard fence consists of 4 feet of cattle fencing topped with 2 wires 1 foot apart for a total of 6 feet. I have not had any issues and we have deer roaming all over our property.


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## ChuckD (Feb 1, 2022)

jackl said:


> My vineyard fence consists of 4 feet of cattle fencing topped with 2 wires 1 foot apart for a total of 6 feet. I have not had any issues and we have deer roaming all over our property.


Some of the material I have read said you don’t have to make it absolutely deer proof. You just need to make it enough trouble that the deer change their behavior. 

For probably 10 years after I built my house I had no deer damage in my garden. It started slowly and I ignored it. Three years later and they were wiping me out! I now have to use a temporary 5 foot poultry netting that my grandson can crawl under and that’s all I need. It’s a long narrow fenced in area and they don’t like jumping into “small” enclosures. Even if I leave the gate open they won’t go in.


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## ChuckD (Feb 1, 2022)

Well after several iterations I think I have my vineyard/orchard/garden plan done. Everything you see inside the fence will be tilled and planted in grass this spring (if it already isn’t).


I have room for about 130 vines, 10 more apple trees, and some small fruits like blackberries and raspberries. Also room to move my garden beds in the future to make room for the pavilion. This should keep me busy as long as I can remain upright . It’s a lot but I love being outside and my time in the garden. I’m starting small with two dozen grapes, six more apples, and several berry bushes. I would plant more but I have to build the house addition this fall!

I have a dozen each of Marquette and Marachael Foch on order but I’m reading so many good things about petite pearl that I wonder if I should add a dozen right away? 

also, what are your favorite books/websites to learn grape vine care (spraying) and pruning? I’m flying blind here! Better yet are there any courses where I can get some hands-on training? I learn better by doing!


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## GSMChris (Feb 1, 2022)

A few books:

From Vines to Wines... good basic foundation - the first roughly 1/3 is growing grapes, the second 2/3 is turning juice into wine.

Grape Growers Handbook - much more detailed. Basically a college text book. I dip in and out of here

A Vineyard Odyssey by John Kiger deals with how one guy was as organic as he could be in the Sonoma Valley

An unlikely vineyard about a hardcore organic vineyard in Vermont 

Youtube:

There are two good sets of videos by oneacrewine

I also like Michael Neal mjnvsadmin1 - lots of short video clips


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## GSMChris (Feb 1, 2022)

Looking at your plan - are the Apples on the south side of the vineyard? If so, are they in a position where they might block the sun on your vines?


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## VinesnBines (Feb 1, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> also, what are your favorite books/websites to learn grape vine care (spraying) and pruning? I’m flying blind here! Better yet are there any courses where I can get some hands-on training? I learn better by doing!


See if there is a Vineyard Association or check with your local ag office. There may be hands on classes/workshops available. Some vineyards will offer mini courses to get you interested in their wines. Google is your friend.


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## BigDaveK (Feb 1, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> also, what are your favorite books/websites to learn grape vine care (spraying) and pruning? I’m flying blind here! Better yet are there any courses where I can get some hands-on training? I learn better by doing!


 
Love the layout!
Pruning is probably the most important. There are a lot of good YouTube's. Watch a bunch because - here's a shocker - every grower has an opinion about the "best" way. But there ARE some basic techniques they all use.
I try to stay organic throughout the gardens and yard. Japanese beetles are my main pest and traps work for me. And the organic fungal sprays seem to work. 
Good luck!


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## VinesnBines (Feb 1, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Looking at your plan - are the Apples on the south side of the vineyard? If so, are they in a position where they might block the sun on your vines?


It looks like some of your apples are on the east side too. You want to get as much sun as possible in the morning. Trees to the north won't be as much problem; no shading.


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## ChuckD (Feb 1, 2022)

Yeah the tree placement gave me a little grief. Two of the three north of the garden beds are existing. And the line Of trees southeast of the vines is at the bottom of a 10% slope. Of course they are all semi-dwarf, maybe 15 feet tall max, so they don’t provide a lot of shade. I would worry more about the large ash outside the fence but emerald ash borer is here so they are going to become firewood.

I would have liked to put the apples where the berries are but that’s on top of the septic drain field and trees are a no-no. I don’t want to put them along the north fence. I’m leaving a 20-foot buffer there because they spray the field.

Given the restrictions I think it’s the best place for the apples. There is also the weedy area just south of the house. I never planted grass there because it was so rocky. I could put some there but there’s lots of shade from the woods.


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## ChuckD (Feb 1, 2022)

And thanks everyone for the vine-care recommendations. I am completely organic with my veggies and would like to keep chemicals to a minimum with the vines and trees.


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## Vern (Feb 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> And thanks everyone for the vine-care recommendations. I am completely organic with my veggies and would like to keep chemicals to a minimum with the vines and trees.


You layout looks well thought out, I am in lake geneva area, if you are interested in tasting my blend of marquette, petite pearl and verona, please stop by.


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## ChuckD (Feb 2, 2022)

Vern said:


> You layout looks well thought out, I am in lake geneva area, if you are interested in tasting my blend of marquette, petite pearl and verona, please stop by.


Thanks. I would love to try some wine made from your vineyard. I sent you a private message.


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## GSMChris (Feb 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> And thanks everyone for the vine-care recommendations. I am completely organic with my veggies and would like to keep chemicals to a minimum with the vines and trees.



I'd definitely suggest the Kiger book. He takes a very pragmatic approach to being organic and growing grapes.


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## franc1969 (Feb 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> vineyard/orchard/garden plan
> 
> I have a dozen each of Marquette and Marachael Foch on order but I’m reading so many good things about petite pearl that I wonder if I should add a dozen right away?


great plan, what did you use to make it?
From what i have heard, an Tom Plocher grapes are excellent. I would try the wine offered, and plant.


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## ChuckD (Feb 2, 2022)

franc1969 said:


> great plan, what did you use to make it?
> From what i have heard, an Tom Plocher grapes are excellent. I would try the wine offered, and plant.


ArcMap. I have it at work. There are some free/public GIS based programs out there but ArcMap has all the bells and whistles.

always try the wine offered! And I’ll probably plant a dozen petite pearl this year as well


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## franc1969 (Feb 2, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> ArcMap. I have it at work. There are some free/public GIS based programs out there but ArcMap has all the bells and whistles.
> 
> always try the wine offered! And I’ll probably plant a dozen petite pearl this year as well


I am going to have to try that program. I hadn't really wanted to learn, but everyone tells me it will do what I want.


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## ChuckD (Feb 2, 2022)

franc1969 said:


> I am going to have to try that program. I hadn't really wanted to learn, but everyone tells me it will do what I want.


GIS is an amazingly powerful tool for mapping and spatial analysis. I mainly use the mapping tools and barely scratch the surface with what I can do.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 2, 2022)

Good luck on the organic approach. I'll encourage you but will not judge if you turn to the usual chemicals. I use manzate, captan, sulfur, sevin and a couple others, even on hybrids. I'm in a spray cycle and it works. I don't like the chemicals but I don't want to lose my vines. I've seen the results of no spray.


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## ChuckD (Feb 2, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Good luck on the organic approach. I'll encourage you but will not judge if you turn to the usual chemicals. I use manzate, captan, sulfur, sevin and a couple others, even on hybrids. I'm in a spray cycle and it works. I don't like the chemicals but I don't want to lose my vines. I've seen the results of no spray.


I’m just starting to learn about vine care from what I read. I’m not going to be a purist about it. I’ll do what I need to when it comes down to it.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 2, 2022)

I was confused and overwhelmed about spraying at first. As time goes on, I 'm learning more and getting more comfortable with vine care. You get a lot of information and can get overloaded in a hurry.


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## ChuckD (Feb 2, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I was confused and overwhelmed about spraying at first. As time goes on, I 'm learning more and getting more comfortable with vine care. You get a lot of information and can get overloaded in a hurry.


I’m going to be planting my first vines this spring. Do I need to spray this year even though there won’t be any fruiting?


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## VinesnBines (Feb 2, 2022)

Downy mildew and powdery mildew will weaken the vines so you should spray the first year vines. Look at the Double A site here Organic Spray Programs/Schedules - Grower's Guide I use neem oil when I can. Don't use sulfur on your red hybrids. Neem oil is good if you don't see any signs of mildew. Look at pictures on the internet of grape diseases. Once you get a disease, you will know!


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## BigH (Feb 10, 2022)

Any direction you pick will have some pros and some cons. You have to decide which pros and cons matter the most

1. NW to SE following the slope. Nice morning sun exposure and limits evening sun a bit. Downside is erosion concerns
2. N/S rows give equal sun exposure with a downside of more trellis cost and some oddly short rows. 
3. E/W rows will have uneven sun exposure. Your trellis choice might be able to mitigate, and south facing slope helps.

Since you like the idea of E/W rows and you are thinking about a GDC trellis, search these forums for GrapeMan's modified GDC. He invented a GDC like trellis that is tilted so the North side gets more sun. Might be a good fit for your location.

H


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## BigH (Feb 10, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I’m going to be planting my first vines this spring. Do I need to spray this year even though there won’t be any fruiting?



The varieties you plant will matter. I did not spray my first year vines, but that is mostly because I didn't know any better. 

My recommendation is to figure out how what equipment you are going to spray with, and at least put some manzate on every couple weeks, and be ready to go to war with Japanese beetles come July. Someone else mentioned powdery mildew. I would probably just scout for that and see how much of a problem it has the potential to be.

You mentioned being organic. Between Japanese Beetles and fungus, that is really difficult. The beetles seem to prefer grapes over all other plants, and will fly from miles away if you don't control them. Have some gameplan for dealing with them.

H


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## ChuckD (Feb 10, 2022)

BigH said:


> You mentioned being organic. Between Japanese Beetles and fungus, that is really difficult


Thanks for the advice. The veggie garden will stay organic but I’m gonna do what I need to for the grapes. As for Japanese Beetles, I won’t say how they have been here least I jinx myself. 

My rows will follow the contour, so running NE-SW (skewed more N-S). I’ll check out that trellising method but I’m leaning more HWC right now. As for grapes I’m starting with Marquette Foch, and Petite Pearl. Looking at Verona too. It’s gonna be a crazy year so I’m starting small with a couple dozen vines. 

Here’s the layout I settled on.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 11, 2022)

The strict answer is that you will not have enough disease population for the first two years that you will see a difference. From my experience it will be worth while getting that part of the process started so that you are ready on year three when the cordons are being trained. For me the spray program is a lot of the learning curve, possibly since I tried to be organic, ,, when I started and with only two vines in the back yard organic worked.


ChuckD said:


> I’m going to be planting my first vines this spring. Do I need to spray this year even though there won’t be any fruiting?


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## wood1954 (Mar 3, 2022)

I tried organic and it was a disaster in Wisconsins humid summers. After picking over two thousand jap beetles I got out the spray, yes I really did count them. Last year I didn’t keep my fungicide schedule and paid for it dearly. I also didn’t notice how many stink bugs were in the clusters until harvest and crush time when it was too late. This year it’s full on chemical warfare.


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## wood1954 (Mar 3, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Thanks for the advice. The veggie garden will stay organic but I’m gonna do what I need to for the grapes. As for Japanese Beetles, I won’t say how they have been here least I jinx myself.
> 
> My rows will follow the contour, so running NE-SW (skewed more N-S). I’ll check out that trellising method but I’m leaning more HWC right now. As for grapes I’m starting with Marquette Foch, and Petite Pearl. Looking at Verona too. It’s gonna be a crazy year so I’m starting small with a couple dozen vines.
> 
> ...


What kind of crops will be planted on the adjacent property? That might impact your pest situation in a good way or not if they spray and it drifts onto your grapes


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## ChuckD (Mar 3, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> What kind of crops will be planted on the adjacent property? That might impact your pest situation in a good way or not if they spray and it drifts onto your grapes


The neighbor rotates corn three or four years then alfalfa four or five years. It’s about ready for alfalfa … probably next year. No spraying at all while it’s in alfalfa. Except for maybe liquid fertilizer. Corn gets some roundup and probably others in the Mix. 

I’m keeping 20’ between the grapes and the field. I’ll also be talking to him about overspray.


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## ChuckD (Mar 3, 2022)

I have noticed Japanese beetles really like sandy soil. So far they have not been a big problem here but that can always change. I’ll do what I have to do to keep the grapes going.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 4, 2022)

My experience is similar to @wood1954 except I tried organic longer. My neighbor farmer sprays alfalfa for weevils. I haven’t noticed ag chemical damage on anything I grow, but it always stinks so I try to stay inside when they spray. Drift? am I down wind?


ChuckD said:


> The neighbor rotates corn three or four years then alfalfa four or five years. It’s about ready for alfalfa … probably next year. No spraying at all while it’s in alfalfa. Except for maybe liquid fertilizer. Corn gets some roundup and probably others in the Mix.
> 
> I’m keeping 20’ between the grapes and the field. I’ll also be talking to him about overspray.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 4, 2022)

Japanese Beetles love grapes no matter the soil. In fact, I have two plots 300 miles apart The main vineyard on heavy clay had a pretty heavy JB presence last year. I had very few in Eastern Virginia in sandy soil. I have grapes, corn and roses in the sandy soil but not many JBs.

I'm putting in 90 vinifera in the Eastern VA plot and I have a beehive about 25 feet from the vines. I'm going to have to work to keep from killing the bees with spray. The vines are going to be really close (4 feet between the rows and 3 feet between the vines) so I hope overspray won't be a issue. I'll hand spray and only in the evening whey the bees are in the hive. I'm hoping for the best.


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## BigH (Mar 4, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Corn gets some roundup and probably others in the Mix.
> 
> I’m keeping 20’ between the grapes and the field. I’ll also be talking to him about overspray.



Definitely recommend having a talk. Corn is a grass, and like other grasses, is not impacted by 2,4-D. Spraying corn with 2,4-D is quite common, especially with the emergence of roundup resistant weeds.

Also, make sure to register your vineyard with driftwatch.

H


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## ChuckD (Mar 5, 2022)

When looking at a pest management guide I saw that Asian lady beetles are a problem. Did not expect that! I figured since they are predators they would be good at eating other pests. Unfortunately I typically have them in abundance. When my field is in alfalfa/hay they get so bad in the fall I have, on occasion, kept a broom outside by the door so I can sweep them off before opening it! I have spent years tracking down and sealing entry points so those buggers don’t get in the house to overwinter.


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## ChuckD (Apr 19, 2022)

Well conditions were right so I took a day off work and started prepping the vineyard area . I took down three trees and burned the limbs. I also burned the heavy buildup of plants on top of the hill. The side of the hill is more gravelly so even after 25 years there’s not much debris or sod. 


grapes should do fine here. Under all that brush and grass the ground was crawling with wild grape vines. I hope to get the stumps pulled and have it plowed up by May.


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## GSMChris (Apr 20, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> Well conditions were right so I took a day off work and started prepping the vineyard area . I took down three trees and burned the limbs. I also burned the heavy buildup of plants on top of the hill. The side of the hill is more gravelly so even after 25 years there’s not much debris or sod.
> View attachment 87277
> 
> grapes should do fine here. Under all that brush and grass the ground was crawling with wild grape vines. I hope to get the stumps pulled and have it plowed up by May.



Doesn‘t feel great to move ahead after all the planning? Congrats on this first big step


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## ChuckD (Apr 20, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Doesn‘t feel great to move ahead after all the planning? Congrats on this first big step


Yes! It has been a looooong winter.


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## ChuckD (May 14, 2022)

On Thursday the neighbor disked the vineyard area. The plan was to disk it again two or three times then drag it, plant grass seed, and roll it. plenty of rock picking in between.



Of course just after he finished disking we got 5” of rain! Now the area is mush and we’re probably set back at least a week…. Barring more rain of course


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## winemaker81 (May 14, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> plenty of rock picking in between.


Picking by hand or by machine?

Some years back my neighbor was setting up a business and I was a guinea pig for a service he planned to provide -- he used a machine that chewed up the top 6" or so of my back yard, separating out rocks over a certain size, and dropping the soil back in place. In my part of NC, we have red clay, and nothing grows in red clay better than rocks. After he was done he dropped a 3' high pile of stones in a natural area on my property. It worked really well!


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## ChuckD (May 14, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Picking by hand or by machine?


By hand unfortunately. Anything smaller than a golf ball gets pushed back down and I will roll the ground flat.


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## GSMChris (May 15, 2022)

I feel your pain on the rock picking. For now I am just making piles between the plants, with an eye towards running my lawn tractor with a trailer down the aisles for pick up later.

Then I need to disc and generally level things out - which will flip up more rocks I’m sure… 

So I guess multiple passes are in my future 

best of luck to you


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## ChuckD (May 15, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> Then I need to disc and generally level things out - which will flip up more rocks I’m sure…


When I planted my lawn 25 years ago I dragged it flat and raked up every rock bigger than a quarter… I probably had a wheelbarrow load every 12 feet on center. I got them all
Picked up and then we had a heavy rain. The next morning It looked like I hadn’t picked up one! I learned you just have to quit at level then get a big roller and squish them down.

I just got in from driving in a dozen T-posts for my garden fence and I had to move 9 of them at least once due to rocks. I use the cast ones and the top of every post is chipped and mushroomed from the driver.


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## winemaker81 (May 15, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> By hand unfortunately. Anything smaller than a golf ball gets pushed back down and I will roll the ground flat.


Unfortunately they pop back up. The "dig down 6 inches" worked -- the areas my neighbor did have yet to pop another rock.


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## GSMChris (May 15, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Unfortunately they pop back up. The "dig down 6 inches" worked -- the areas my neighbor did have yet to pop another rock.


Well, I’ve got a few that need to get out of the way regardless. For scale, that’s a 24 inch tube at the top of the picture. And yes, the collection all came out of one hole - which I was trouble shooting to figure out why it had standing water two days after watering. Combination of clay and bowling ball sized rocks


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## tmcfadden932 (May 17, 2022)

I know of a winery owner/grower that was into explosives when he was a youngster back in the 1960s'. He took that knowledge, along with his share of selling a name winery to a national beverage corporation, and put in a vineyard on side of a mountain in Napa, Ca. He would fracture the rock to get the posts and vines where he wanted. He "dug" his wine cave/cellar into the mountain this way too.


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## ChuckD (May 17, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> I know of a winery owner/grower that was into explosives when he was a youngster back in the 1960s'. He took that knowledge, along with his share of selling a name winery to a national beverage corporation, and put in a vineyard on side of a mountain in Napa, Ca. He would fracture the rock to get the posts and vines where he wanted. He "dug" his wine cave/cellar into the mountain this way too.


Coooool! I want to play with explosives  
And I have plans drawn up for a full-on wine cave/hobbit house! It will probably never get done but never say never!


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## ChuckD (May 17, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Unfortunately they pop back up. The "dig down 6 inches" worked -- the areas my neighbor did have yet to pop another rock.


I think if I removed all the rocks from the top 6” I’d only have 4” of soil left.


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## ChuckD (May 17, 2022)

So two days of pulling roots and picking rocks . Now just one more disking and then they will drag it flat with the culti-mulcher. 


this is the haul from about 0.2 acres on the hill. It took about 8 trips with the garden cart. Each load got a little bigger until this happened


Of course it was a full load so I had to unload the rocks into my firewood sled and drag them away. Luckily it was the last load on the hill. The rest were close enough to the swamp to be air-mailed directly. I’m hoping I can seed the grass and start laying out the rows this weekend .


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## winemaker81 (May 17, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I think if I removed all the rocks from the top 6” I’d only have 4” of soil left.


Other than climate, it appears that Wisconsin and North Carolina have a lot in common!


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## ChuckD (May 17, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Other than climate, it appears that Wisconsin and North Carolina have a lot in common!


Up here it’s wherever the glaciers decided to leave them. 8 miles northwest you couldn’t find a bucket of rocks in a 100 acre field. I just got lucky I guess


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## ChuckD (May 22, 2022)

107 piles of rock and sod clumps!

It took about 7 hours to rake them
Up. Today we hauled away about 75% of them and seeded the whole area. I need to finish hauling the rest away tomorrow and roll the seed down. We have a big rain forecast for Tuesday night and I still want to get my apples and raspberries planted 


time for wine!


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## GSMChris (May 23, 2022)

It’s looking great! I can really see the sweat equity out there!


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## TurkeyHollow (May 24, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> this is the haul from about 0.2 acres on the hill. It took about 8 trips with the garden cart. Each load got a little bigger until this happened
> View attachment 88467


I'm no mechanic but you'll want to keep that at low speeds on the highway - it may vibrate a bit!
I feel for you. I'm in New England where we have rocks...



...and stumps...


But it's all good fun!


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## ChuckD (May 24, 2022)

I seeded and rolled the site yesterday. Today I laid out the perimeter fence and marked the ends of all the rows with fiberglass driveway markers. 


I thought I would have time to plant my apple trees but the layout took a lot longer than I thought. It’s not easy laying out 13 parallel lines in an irregular space!

It looks very close to the original plan but skewed a little more E-W. I ended up with room for 134 vines with a 10x7 spacing. Overall I am really happy with the space and can’t wait to start planting. My Petite Pearl are arriving Thursday and the Marquette next week.


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## TurkeyHollow (May 25, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I seeded and rolled the site yesterday. Today I laid out the perimeter fence and marked the ends of all the rows with fiberglass driveway markers.
> View attachment 88802
> 
> I thought I would have time to plant my apple trees but the layout took a lot longer than I thought. It’s not easy laying out 13 parallel lines in an irregular space!
> ...


Looks great! Nothing more exciting than seeing it all planted & trellised. For me, the clearing and land prep was the worst. I hope you have better luck positioning your end posts where no boulders exist. My first patch I removed all the boulders (some as big as a Mini Cooper). That took me about 3 years. I soon figured out that the vines don't care - as long as there's enough soil, nutrients & water, they're happy. I'm still expanding but it won't be as pretty as yours when you're finished. It looks you're doing a great job!


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## GSMChris (May 25, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I seeded and rolled the site yesterday. Today I laid out the perimeter fence and marked the ends of all the rows with fiberglass driveway markers.
> View attachment 88802
> 
> I thought I would have time to plant my apple trees but the layout took a lot longer than I thought. It’s not easy laying out 13 parallel lines in an irregular space!
> ...



That looks fantastic! I feel your pain with the irregular space - makes things ever so challenging!


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## ChuckD (May 25, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> Looks great! Nothing more exciting than seeing it all planted & trellised. For me, the clearing and land prep was the worst. I hope you have better luck positioning your end posts where no boulders exist. My first patch I removed all the boulders (some as big as a Mini Cooper). That took me about 3 years. I soon figured out that the vines don't care - as long as there's enough soil, nutrients & water, they're happy. I'm still expanding but it won't be as pretty as yours when you're finished. It looks you're doing a great job!


I’m glad I don’t have boulders that size! Looking at all the stone piles around here we get the occasional large (wheel barrow size) erratic but most is potato to bread loaf sized stone, and lots of it! I’ll get the end posts where I need them but you often end up with a pretty large hole by the time you fish out all the rock. I still haven’t decided if I want leaning end posts with anchors or a double braced-post setup. The latter is more work but looks better and is easier to mow around.


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## ChuckD (May 27, 2022)

Today after work I planted my raspberries, a black currant, and five vines I bought in a table-grape mix (Mars, Somerset, and three Brianna). We had two inches of rain in the last 24 hours so the ground was saturated… and it was still misting as I planted so it was like playing in the mud. I don’t like planting in those conditions but the plants have been sitting in my cellar for two weeks and some of them were starting to sprout. 

25 Petite Pearl arrived today and my plan is to get them, along with six apple trees, planted this weekend. The 25 Marquette are scheduled to ship next week. unfortunately the grow tubes are shipping with the Marquette. I’m going to pick up some deer repellent spray tomorrow to hold me over. 

It’s finally all coming together!!!!!


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## ChuckD (Jun 5, 2022)

DONE!


I planted 25 Marquette and 10 more asparagus plants today. You may have heard the groaning when I hoisted my bloated carcass up from my knees for the 35th time today

The grand total for 2022 is 25 Marquette, 26 Petite Pearl, 3 Brianna, two seedless table grapes, 15 raspberries, one red currant, 6 apple trees, 15 asparagus plants, and 3 rhubarb plants.

here is one of the pearls… nine days in the ground!


next year I’m thinking another dozen Brianna and another 25 red.


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## Vern (Jun 5, 2022)

Nice, and now the fun begins.


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## ChuckD (Jun 5, 2022)

High on the list is a bench placed right where that first picture was taken so My wife and I can visually enjoy the fruits of our labor… until the real fruits arrive. They will have built in wine glass holders


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## wood1954 (Jun 5, 2022)

With 75 reds you’ll be making a lot of wine. I wish you lots of luck.


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## ChuckD (Jun 5, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> With 75 reds you’ll be making a lot of wine. I wish you lots of luck.


Yep. Those 5-gallon carboys are not going to cut it anymore. I guess I’ll be looking to scale up in a few years.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 5, 2022)

Once they start leafing out, the race is on. I don’t have a bench but I do stop now and then and admire the vines. 

Now and then there is a surprise in the vines.


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## ChuckD (Jun 5, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Once they start leafing out, the race is on. I don’t have a bench but I do stop now and then and admire the vines.
> 
> Now and then there is a surprise in the vines.View attachment 89216


The grow tubes will go on in a few days. Mainly so I don’t have to deal with the four legged marauding horde. I already chased three of them out of the vineyard this evening.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 5, 2022)

Better get the tubes on. Momma deer says the new shoots are tasty.


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## ChuckD (Jun 5, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Better get the tubes on. Momma deer says the new shoots are tasty.


Any vines that don’t get grow tubes will get a deer repellent spray daily until they get the grow tubes. In a year or two I’ll be installing a deer fence around the backyard/ garden/ vineyard area.


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## TurkeyHollow (Jun 6, 2022)

Any thoughts on trellising? Being in cooler climate, are you double trunking?


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## ChuckD (Jun 6, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> Any thoughts on trellising? Being in cooler climate, are you double trunking?


I had just assumed I would use HWC because it’s recommended, but several folks here have me thinking about VSP.

I hadn’t thought about double trunking. It’s not that cold here (zone 5a) and I’m close enough to the Great Lakes coast that we seem to avoid the really brutal cold.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 6, 2022)

I am trying double trunking to an extent. I have discovered that you can't have four cordons unless you have two fruiting wires. I'm rethinking because we don't have brutal winters either.


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## GSMChris (Jun 6, 2022)

Congrats on getting them all in the ground!!!


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## ChuckD (Jun 6, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I am trying double trunking to an extent. I have discovered that you can't have four cordons unless you have two fruiting wires. I'm rethinking because we don't have brutal winters either.


So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?


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## VinesnBines (Jun 6, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?


I don't know; that's my problem. I haven't done enough research.


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## TurkeyHollow (Jun 6, 2022)

It's kind of a PITA to train them to spur in the direction you want them but well worth it (from what I've read). I was told you can get double the fruit from TWC (if that's what is recommended). I have some that are MWC (VSP) but that variety called for it. I double-trunked everything living in 6b. I've lost a couple of cordons to winter damage and got impatient and just let a shoot grow off the main trunk in order to another cordon started. At the same time, I will let another shoot come up from the base to form the second trunk. Since that new cordon won't produce any fruit this year (or at least I won't let it), I'll see witch method produces the best result. Double-trunking affords you the ability to make the choice - if winter damage isn't an issue, you may be best served just concentrating on the one. Either way, good luck!


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## TurkeyHollow (Jun 6, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?


I prune (2) buds per spur (spur spacing is about a fist) then the for winter pruning, prune off (1) shoot off the spur and leave (2) buds on the remaining shoot. Those will be my (2) buds for the following year's fruiting vines.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 7, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> It's kind of a PITA to train them to spur in the direction you want them but well worth it (from what I've read). I was told you can get double the fruit from TWC (if that's what is recommended). I have some that are MWC (VSP) but that variety called for it. I double-trunked everything living in 6b. I've lost a couple of cordons to winter damage and got impatient and just let a shoot grow off the main trunk in order to another cordon started. At the same time, I will let another shoot come up from the base to form the second trunk. Since that new cordon won't produce any fruit this year (or at least I won't let it), I'll see witch method produces the best result. Double-trunking affords you the ability to make the choice - if winter damage isn't an issue, you may be best served just concentrating on the one. Either way, good luck!


So you only have one cordon or arm per trunk? I'm probably going to cane prune; double pruning did not seem to work as intended and that was the main reason for spur pruning.


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## TurkeyHollow (Jun 7, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> So you only have one cordon or arm per trunk? I'm probably going to cane prune; double pruning did not seem to work as intended and that was the main reason for spur pruning.


Yes - one cordon per trunk. I'm no expert at this by any means. I've done quite a bit of research on my particular varieties and applied what I believed to be the best advice. I've also strayed on some vines to compare the results. One thing I've learned is that with all the varieties, terroirs, micro-climates, etc., there are too many variables to have one steadfast rule. Unfortunately for me, there aren't too many old vineyards in my area so the data is limited. On the other hand, grapes have been grown for centuries so there is data you can lean on for a starting point.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 7, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> Yes - one cordon per trunk. I'm no expert at this by any means. I've done quite a bit of research on my particular varieties and applied what I believed to be the best advice. I've also strayed on some vines to compare the results. One thing I've learned is that with all the varieties, terroirs, micro-climates, etc., there are too many variables to have one steadfast rule. Unfortunately for me, there aren't too many old vineyards in my area so the data is limited. On the other hand, grapes have been grown for centuries so there is data you can lean on for a starting point.


Yes, there are so many variables even in the same vineyard. I’m still getting the feel of my vineyard and my vines. 

This year looks to be promising. Even the 2 year vines that survived a really dry 1st year look good. I didn’t irrigate and they barely got to the top of the grow tubes.


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## ChuckD (Jun 7, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> double pruning did not seem to work as intended and that was the main reason for spur pruning.


What is double pruning? Not a term I remember from my research on vine training methods.

ETA. So I searched here for it and it looks like you prune most of the way in winter but leave extra buds then prune again after the danger of frost has passed. Is this correct?


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## VinesnBines (Jun 7, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> What is double pruning? Not a term I remember from my research on vine training methods.


Double pruning is where you leave extra buds on the spur or cane. The theory is that the buds at the end of the spur break first and you cut those back to delay bud break. It is to mitigate late frost damage. 

My buds broke first close to the cordon and later on the ends. That made double pruning impossible and useless. Studies showed that you can delay bud break by 10 to 14 days. They did not make the study in my vineyard.


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## montanarick (Jun 8, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> So if you have double trunks do you then prune to fewer buds per cane or spur? Keeping the same production per vine?


quick answer is NO.


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## ChuckD (Jun 8, 2022)

montanarick said:


> quick answer is NO.


I guess I have lots of reading to do this winter. Single trunk? Double trunk? TWC? VSP? Cane? Spur? So many choices


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## VinesnBines (Jun 9, 2022)

Trellis systems alone can occupy volumes; add Scott-Henry, Hudson umbrella, Kiffen, double lyre, MWC, and many more. 

Seriously you should take some viticulture classes if any are available near you. Here is a link to webinars by Penn State and Cornell.


VinesnBines said:


> Here is a link to the Eastern Viticulture and Enology Forum Webinars from 2020/21 and 2021/22. Eastern Viticulture and Enology Forum | Cornell Fruit Resources: Grapes
> 
> The Spring Frost Mitigation and Rose' Wine Production were both good. I wasn't able to attend all the webinar's due to timing but there are several more I want to watch. Some are geared to commercial operations but I was always able to get a tidbit that was useful.


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## ChuckD (Jun 9, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Trellis systems alone can occupy volumes; add Scott-Henry, Hudson umbrella, Kiffen, double lyre, MWC, and many more.
> 
> Seriously you should take some viticulture classes if any are available near you. Here is a link to webinars by Penn State and Cornell.


Thanks for the link. I’ll check some of these out. I’ll also check to see if UW Madison offers any classes or field days.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 10, 2022)

I was able, before the pandemic, to take several classes through a community collage viticulture and enology program. They are starting back with classes this year, so I may get a few more under my belt. I didn't learn everything but it was a help to understand a lot. 

It looks like Wisconsin has a Grape Growers Association. I strongly encourage you to join. Talking to other growers and looking around other vineyards (not just in passing on the road) is really helpful. I looks like they have several past events and I expect they will be having more soon. They have a classified page and I see someone had grow tubes for sale. Our VA association exchange has really been useful for me. I have bought a lot of used items off the exchange. I even was able to get some free bottles last year. 

One thing about viticulture; everyone is willing to help and no one is in competition. Like the pandemic, we are all in this together.


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## wood1954 (Jun 12, 2022)

One negative with TWC is the as the shoots grow from the cordon they act as a sail and tend to get blown about as they are only loosely tied to the top wire. I think a wire one foot below the top wire would help anchor the new shoots.


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## Vern (Jun 12, 2022)

I have a second wire down 30". It does help to secure the canes.


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## wood1954 (Jun 12, 2022)

Vern said:


> I have a second wire down 30". It does help to secure the canes.


That’s what I need to do


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## ChuckD (Jun 14, 2022)

So we’re sitting on the deck trying to enjoy the new vineyard here… Somethings gotta go!


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## GSMChris (Jun 15, 2022)

I‘m thinking you’ve got one heck of a nice Christmas tree for this year along with an awesome view of your new babies!


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## ChuckD (Jun 15, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> I‘m thinking you’ve got one heck of a nice Christmas tree for this year along with an awesome view of your new babies!


I won’t be waiting for Christmas. I’ll be firing up the chainsaw the next cool day I get. It’s funny. I’ve always hated that tree because it’s too big and messy but my wife wouldn’t let me cut it down. She’s the one who complained she couldn’t see the vineyard . I can fix that!


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## ChuckD (Jun 24, 2022)

Meet vine D2… also known as “Speedy”. One of 26. first to escape the confines of the grow tube and feel the breezes on her tendrils . 


It’s like seeing your babies first step 

The grass is coming in and the vineyard is looking good.


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## wood1954 (Jun 24, 2022)

Lot of work coming your way.


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## ChuckD (Jun 25, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> Lot of work coming your way.


Yeah but it’s good work. They should be producing around the time I retire.


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## VinesnBines (Jun 25, 2022)

Looking great! Every vine grows at a different rate! On the other hand grass grows at a phenomenal rate.


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## Rob Kneeland (Jul 24, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> When looking at a pest management guide I saw that Asian lady beetles are a problem


I hope not! We have them by the ton, being surrounded by either corn or soy beans. I believe they eat aphids, not grapes or grape leaves.

There are spring and fall days when it is unpleasant to be outside because they are so plentiful.

What I DO know is that they STINK. When I pick my first harvest this year I will be sure to shake them off as they would be a terrible addition to the wine.


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## ChuckD (Jul 24, 2022)

Rob Kneeland said:


> I hope not! We have them by the ton, being surrounded by either corn or soy beans. I believe they eat aphids, not grapes or grape leaves.
> 
> There are spring and fall days when it is unpleasant to be outside because they are so plentiful.
> 
> What I DO know is that they STINK. When I pick my first harvest this year I will be sure to shake them off as they would be a terrible addition to the wine.


Same here! As far as I know they are a problem because they hide in the clusters and taint the wine. I recently saw a link heee on getting them out of the grapes but can’t find it.


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## floorington12 (Aug 29, 2022)

montanarick said:


> i fenced my Montana vineyard with 5' welded wire mesh and it was very effective in keeping the deer out. put chicken wire cages around the young vines to deter rabbits.


Did you use galvanized? Or stainless steel?

I only ask because the galvanizing can be very bad environmentally for the soil. If you need a good source for the welded material - try here:
Welded Wire Mesh


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## GSMChris (Sep 1, 2022)

So how is that potential future Christmas tree doing?

My wife announced this morning that we needed to "declutter the view of the vineyard" - which means get rid of a birch tree and some random shrubs. I thought of you when she said that!!!


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## ChuckD (Sep 1, 2022)

GSMChris said:


> So how is that potential future Christmas tree doing?
> 
> My wife announced this morning that we needed to "declutter the view of the vineyard" - which means get rid of a birch tree and some random shrubs. I thought of you when she said that!!!


I’m still waiting for cooler weather. Days are getting shorter too. Not many daylight hours left after my day job.


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## GSMChris (Sep 1, 2022)

Boy do I resemble that remark.


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