# Malolactic Fermentation - When is too late



## ffemt128 (Nov 10, 2014)

When is it to late to start a ML culture. I was thinking of giving this a try on my Chilean wines but wasn't sure if it was to late to start this. I do want to give this a go on my CA Sangiovase as well. The Chilean was started in May and the CA was started in September.

What are the thoughts from those who have done this in the past...


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## sour_grapes (Nov 10, 2014)

Have you sulfited them?


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## ffemt128 (Nov 10, 2014)

They have been sulfited initially and last about 2 months ago. I need to check the levels...Maybe tomorrow..


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## heatherd (Nov 10, 2014)

Check your sulfite levels, then you can check to see if they are within the range the malolactic bacteria can tolerate. Some MLB are more tolerant than others.

Ideally, batches intended for MLF should have little to no sulfite. I made his mistake recently and added kmeta out of habit on batches I planned to MLF. Of the three, two are progressing but the other is not going as well.

Heather


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## ffemt128 (Nov 10, 2014)

I'll check these tomorrow. I ordered a culture and the paper chromatography kit this am. I'll post PH levels and Sulfite levels tomorrow..


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## ffemt128 (Nov 11, 2014)

I just finished testing the free SO2 levels for the 4 wines in question. Here were the results



Chilean Malbec - PH 3.39 - FSO2 36
Chilean Carmenere - PH 3.33 - FSO2 34
Chilean Cab Sauv - PH 3.37 - FSO2 30
CA Sangiovase - PH 3.32 - FSO2 16
 
The Chileans were last sulfited in July and the CA was sulfited October 26. I generally follow the 1/4 tsp per 5 gallon rule when racking.

Is there any possibility of kicking off MLF on these? Once the paper chromatography kit gets here later in the week I will run a test on that and can post results.


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## seth8530 (Nov 11, 2014)

Give the vp41 strain a look, it might be able to handle those sulfite levels.


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## ffemt128 (Nov 11, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Give the vp41 strain a look, it might be able to handle those sulfite levels.


 
Thanks..I'll look into that...


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## ibglowin (Nov 11, 2014)

Try splash racking in order to get the SO2 levels down.


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## ffemt128 (Nov 11, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Try splash racking in order to get the SO2 levels down.



I will do that as I have 5 1/2 gallons of each and I want to blend back together. I was planning on MLF on 5 gallons, nothing on the 1/2 so i could determine the difference. The 1/2 will be bottled into 375 splits and tried over time with the other...


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## ffemt128 (Nov 16, 2014)

I splash racked my 4 wines this am and pitched the MLB. Time will tell if it takes or not. I'll check it in about 6 weeks and see how it looks. Here is the chromatography test pre inoculation.


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## codeman (Nov 16, 2014)

Is liquid or dry ML bacteria better? If you mail order liquid and it freezes is the bacteria dead?


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## ffemt128 (Nov 18, 2014)

Went and bought 2 new brew belts. Temps in the cellar dropped from lower 60's to low 50's overnight. Temp should increase to where they should be in the next few hours. I have the belts about 1/4 of the way down on the carboys so the temp doesnt get too high.


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## ffemt128 (Nov 21, 2014)

After 3 days of being with brew belts on the carboys I checked the temps today. All are between 68-72 degrees. Feel better about the temps now at least.


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## ffemt128 (Nov 24, 2014)

I have tiny bubbles at the top of each of the wines and what appears to be positive pressure in each of the airlocks. The samples not being mlf'd are absent of these signs. Hopefully it's working..


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## cmason1957 (Nov 24, 2014)

Sounds like it just might be. Give it a month or two, then test it.


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## nayrea143 (Nov 26, 2014)

I was just about to ask this!!!! My ca batch was done end of oct and life just got crazy and I didn't mlb it but I also didn't sulfate either. So I think I will bring it in and let it warm up a bit and add my mlb. 


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## ffemt128 (Dec 24, 2014)

It has been right around 6 weeks. I think I'll give this another test and see what, if anything, is happening. If there are no signs of change, should I give up on mlf and sulfite heavily or keep the brewbelts on and check in another 6 weeks. I'm in no hurry to bottle as the wine is only sitting at the 8 month and 4 month point now.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 26, 2014)

I did another Paper Chromatography test last evening. Pulled the paper this am. I'll check it later for results. Hoping something started. It's been 6 weeks. If nothing else, the samples tasted good.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 26, 2014)

Chromatography papaer just about dry. Doesnt appear to be any signs of Malic Acid disapating. May try spash racking and pitching another culture.


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## ibglowin (Dec 26, 2014)

It takes about 48 hours to really let the chromatography paper develop….. 3P's (once again) of winemaking!


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## ffemt128 (Dec 27, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> It takes about 48 hours to really let the chromatography paper develop….. 3P's (once again) of winemaking!



I'll check it later today. I wasn't aware of that.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 27, 2014)

Definately no change from the starting point for any of the wines. So sign of the malic fading at all. I'll post a pic later.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 28, 2014)

Here's the latest. I splash racked and pitched VP41 this am. Will check again in February.


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 28, 2014)

ffemt128 said:


> Here's the latest. I splash racked and pitched VP41 this am. Will check again in February.



(in Yoda voice): The Malic is strong in you, young wine.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 28, 2014)

derejs said:


> Is sulfite your issue? I'm not sure about VP41 but you may want to look into christen Hansen 16 or some of the others. They have them at presage isle and according the graphs give good quick results.



Yes, I believe it is a 
sulfite issue. I originally had the CH16 and I believe the VP41 is a stronger strain based on what I've read. Pitched it this am. Will check around Presidents Day since it will be 6 weeks out.






Boatboy24 said:


> (in Yoda voice): The Malic is strong in you, young wine.



Lol....


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## ffemt128 (Jan 17, 2015)

I repitched a vp41 on December 26. I decided to run a test yesterday. Here are the results which dont look real promising...I'll check again on President's Day.


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## ffemt128 (Jan 17, 2015)

I tasted all the wines yesterday. All taste very good and all seem to have a smoother mouthfeel than prior to attempting mlf. All have a brew belt on and wine temps are 68-72.


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## ffemt128 (Jan 18, 2015)

I need to recheck those. I think if there is no sign of change next month, I'm going to give up on this barch for mlf. Spring Chilean is right around the corner.


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## manvsvine (Jan 18, 2015)

you might think about adding a little optimalo nutirent / stirring up the lees .

works well for slow mlf.

try that be fore repitching

with a strong strain like 41 , its usually a nutrient issue not a viability or acclimatisation issue even with difficult vareitals like merlot (which has a resistance to enzymatic breakdown) .


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## ffemt128 (Jan 18, 2015)

manvsvine said:


> you might think about adding a little optimalo nutirent / stirring up the lees .
> 
> works well for slow mlf.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the suggestion. I did add a optimalo this am and gave everything a stir. I'm hoping this takes off. Will give it a stir when I return on Tuesday eve.


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## manvsvine (Jan 18, 2015)

Looking at your chromatography results , you have lactic acid present in your samples , that indicates mlf is occurring as lactic isn't there without mlf . 

So it's happening , but the so2 you added is one of the factors slowing down progress .

Another is you splash racked it to get your free so2 down , this big uptake of o2 is also an impairment to mlf completion . The bacteria are anaerobic and o2 impaired , so will stall out but recover eventually .

You've added optimalo , at the top of the reccomended range I hope . 
If not add more , you can't od a wine on it .

Now , just gently so you don't introduce anymore air than you have to stir any fine lees and optimalo into suspension once a week and keep it in the right temperature range and it should finish , it just might take until April , so what if it does ? Your so2 is also impairing spoilage bugs .

You shot your runner in one leg , he's not going to win a sprint , but should hobble over the finish line eventually . Have you ever seen the footage of the last person to cross the line at the end of the boston marathon ?


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## ffemt128 (Jan 24, 2015)

manvsvine said:


> Looking at your chromatography results , you have lactic acid present in your samples , that indicates mlf is occurring as lactic isn't there without mlf .
> 
> So it's happening , but the so2 you added is one of the factors slowing down progress .
> 
> ...



I took you advice and added another dose of nutrients, will also slowly stir once a week. Going to reperform the test near the end of February. I will post results then.


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## ffemt128 (Feb 17, 2015)

Ran another test over the weekend. Pulled the paper from the solution yesterday. I'll post a pic when I get home. It wasn't dry enough to show any real results yesterday afternoon.


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## ffemt128 (Feb 18, 2015)

derekjames100 said:


> It's been 11 hours! Show us!


 

I pulled the test from the drying clips. I didn't get to take a picture yesterday. I'll get one this afternoon. I can tell you there is no discernable difference in this test compared to the others. It's either a really slow MLF due to temps (I do have a brew belt on all and they are staying 68-70) or this just isn't going to happen. Like I said, I'll take pics again of all the tests as I have them all so far and someone can give me their opinions. I may re-test the SO2 levels on Sunday if I get a chance.


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## ffemt128 (Feb 18, 2015)

As promised, original, 12/26, 1/16 and 2/16..


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## ffemt128 (Feb 20, 2015)

Not sure of TA levels but PH was in line with what was needed for MLF strains. I need to check FSO2 and TSO2 this Sunday if I have a chance.


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## ffemt128 (Mar 8, 2015)

Gave everything a stir and added a little more nutrients. Not getting Chilean juice so I'll play with these until September....


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## ffemt128 (Apr 6, 2015)

Its been 6 weeks since I ran the last test. There is positive pressure in the air locks. I decided to run another test this morning. I'll pull the paper around dinner time and then check it again tomorrow after work.


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## ffemt128 (Apr 7, 2015)

After a quick look this am at the paper, there appears to be no discernable difference in the current test compare to the prior. At this point I may just rack off any sediment that has dropped, hit with some kmeta and then bottle in the next few months.


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## ffemt128 (May 13, 2015)

Time for another test this weekend. I've been stirring and each time I stir the wine it's like a volcano getting ready to erupt. Something is producing a boatload of gas. Wine smells great and tastes that way also. Maybe since temps have warmed up, the MLF is finally taking hold...


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## JohnT (May 13, 2015)

I doubt that it is the MLF that is causing all of that gas. MLF is normally not that vigorous.


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## ffemt128 (May 18, 2015)

Test complete, no sign of MLF, will rack next week, add kmeta let clear again then plan on bottling the end of June. They taste great...


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## geek (May 23, 2015)

ffemt128 said:


> Test complete, no sign of MLF, will rack next week, add kmeta let clear again then plan on bottling the end of June. They taste great...



So, in summary, how many cultures did you pitch?
Can you post pics of this latest test?

Looks like you dealt with this for 6 months? If so that is a lot but assume the wine was fine due to the sulfite levels?

Interested in your results....I have 2 batches of Chardonnay that I pitched Wyeast 4007 culture and after 2 months I still see malo presence and was very close to move on and sulfite it, but then I thought about giving it close to another month and if not complete I will sulfite.


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## ffemt128 (May 24, 2015)

I pitched the cultures 2 times. Different cultures each time. I have to assume the sulfite levels were the issue. I'll get some California or Italian juice in the fall and give it another go. I want to also get some complimenting grapes and ferment the juice with a lug of grapes. I think I still have the last test. I'll snap a pic and post later.


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## ffemt128 (May 24, 2015)

Here is the last test. Have presence of all 3 acids...


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## geek (May 24, 2015)

So based on that test it seems like it didn't fully complete?


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## ffemt128 (May 25, 2015)

That's pretty much the way most of the tests looked. I'm happy with how it turned out. I'll bottle in a few months. It's been in a carboy for a year now. Not in any hurry for it..


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## geek (May 25, 2015)

ok, thanks, just got confused when you said "Test complete, no sign of MLF".
Now I see that you meant no activities or bubbles going on.


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