# My plan for 2017 wine from California grapes



## jgmann67

With a batch of wine from fresh grapes under my belt from 2016, I have an idea for a Bordeaux blend wine using fresh California juice and grapes this fall. Doing the math now:

6 gallons of Cab juice.
3 lugs (110 lbs) of Cab grapes.
3 lugs of Merlot grapes.
2 lugs (72 lbs) of Petit Verdot (or a Cab Franc or Malbec). 

That will make about 23 gallons of wine (shy of 10 cases), I think. 

I'm thinking of doing a "left bank" blend - a wine of 60-65% cab, 25-30% merlot and 5-10% PV. Blending would happen after the wines have finished and cleared. I can fiddle till I find the right mix, blend and bottle... then bottle the scraps (probably what's left of the merlot and PV) separately. 

Age the wine at least 3 years and it should be just about ready to drink. Probably $700 for all the juice, grapes, yeast, and oak (that's about $6.10/bottle... not bad). 

With 7 wines in different stages of finishing, and one more kit on deck, I'm done buying kits for this year. Will be saving my nickels to make this plan happen.


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## Boatboy24

Time to get some barrels! 

Dad and I are doing 3 lugs each of Pinot Noir, Cabernet Franc, Merlot and Malbec. Pinot will stand on its on, as the Malbec likely will as well. Will probably blend some Merlot w/ the Cab Franc and bottle the rest on its own.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Time to get some barrels!
> 
> Dad and I are doing 3 lugs each of Pinot Noir, Cabernet Franc, Merlot and Malbec. Pinot will stand on its on, as the Malbec likely will as well. Will probably blend some Merlot w/ the Cab Franc and bottle the rest on its own.




Barrels are a great idea. What's a 20 gallon run? I worry that puts a hole in my budget that I can't fill. If this takes, I can do a better long term plan for 2018.


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## Ajmassa

That's a great plan and I'd be excited too. I will be following along with your posts as this season approaches. 
I haven't put tons of thought into the process yet, but I had a similar plan with some differences. I will be going for a super Tuscan. Maybe 65% Sangiovese and merlot and cabsav making up the other 35%. For 15 gallons. 
Original thought was to crush all the grapes and ferment together from the jump. Letting the wines develop and mature together. 
Is the 6 gal juice pale rather than all grapes for saving a few bucks ? That thought didn't cross my mind until just read your post. All grapes can become expensive.


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## Ron0126

Where will you buy your grapes?


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## Ajmassa

@Jgmann67 may very well be a Harford Vineyards man. I have 2 options of Gino Pintos in Hammonton south jersey, or Procacci Bros. in S. Philly>> (likely. Sort of family tradition).


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## jgmann67

Yep - Harford is close, quality is very good, prices are okay and they destem and crush for a small fee. 

@AJ - yes. Juice pale helps cut down on the cost a bit (I got 7 gallons of wine from 3 lugs of grapes). I wouldn't do a red pale without a couple lugs of grapes to go with it, though. 

A two grape field blend is prett common. Only problem with blending up front is you could wind up with 15 gallons of "I wish I blended this differently."

I'll need another brute container to pull off what I'm planning. I'll have one for the merlot and one for the cab. I can probably do the PV or CF in a 6gal bucket and transfer to a 3gal carbon when I press. 

You can really go wrong with a Super Tuscan, though. [emoji41]


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## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> You can really go wrong with a Super Tuscan, though. [emoji41]




How so? Why are you messing with my head now? Lol. I was all pumped for a Super Tuscan. 
The blend has basically no rules. With Sangiovese merlot cabsav or syrah. My biggest concern was when to blend. Blending right at crush would just be easier and less to stress over I figured. What's the common screw ups with it?


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## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> How so? Why are you messing with my head now? Lol. I was all pumped for a Super Tuscan.
> The blend has basically no rules. With Sangiovese merlot cabsav or syrah. My biggest concern was when to blend. Blending right at crush would just be easier and less to stress over I figured. What's the common screw ups with it?




Sorry - typo. You really CAN'T go wrong with a ST. Should wear my glasses when posting. [emoji41]

The only concern with a field blend like you're talking about is getting to the end and wishing you'd done a different blend.


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## jgmann67

Saved enough in the wine fund for a lug of Lanza Cab grapes so far... we're on track for 24+ gallons of awesome this fall.


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Saved enough in the wine fund for a lug of Lanza Cab grapes so far... we're on track for 24+ gallons of awesome this fall.



11 lugs to go. Tick, tock!


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> 11 lugs to go. Tick, tock!




Thankfully, no. I'm buying a 6 gal juice bucket too. And, my brother will be throwing in some money to get a piece of the finished product (he likes my wine enough to pay for the materials).


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## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Barrels are a great idea. What's a 20 gallon run? I worry that puts a hole in my budget that I can't fill. If this takes, I can do a better long term plan for 2018.



Try this site. Don't know a lot about them but the prices are right.

http://www.exoticbarrels.com/our-store


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Try this site. Don't know a lot about them but the prices are right.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.exoticbarrels.com/our-store




Eastern European oak. Interesting...


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## heatherd

I am planning to get juice and grapes from Harford this fall as well, but that's as far as I have gone with the plan.

Likely I will go with:
-Cal. Sauvignon blanc
-Cal. Pinot noir
-Cal. Chenin blanc
-Cal. Cabernet sauvignon
-Maryland Vidal


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## mainshipfred

When do they publish their pre order list. Everything on their site says out of stock


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> When do they publish their pre order list. Everything on their site says out of stock




I think in August.


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## jgmann67

Saw the ad in Winemaker Magazine for Musto grapes. Looks like the usual stuff from California (grapes and juice) and Italy (juice). An interesting add on this is is grapes from The Yak in Washington. Oh, decisions decisions.


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## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Saw the ad in Winemaker Magazine for Musto grapes. Looks like the usual stuff from California (grapes and juice) and Italy (juice). An interesting add on this is is grapes from The Yak in Washington. Oh, decisions decisions.




I saw this ad as well. I've purchased from Musto before and had an issue and needed to deal with customer service. They were amazing. Very personable. Hand wrote a note in my package for me and threw in a bunch of stickers. Great company [emoji106] 
But why not just get your grapes or juice from your local distributor Harford? Isn't musto only selling their sourced juices and grapes at their location? I was under the impression they only allowed online ordering for specific items. And all those different vineyards listed in the ad are what they are bringing in to their location to sell in person.


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## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I saw this ad as well. I've purchased from Musto before and had an issue and needed to deal with customer service. They were amazing. Very personable. Hand wrote a note in my package for me and threw in a bunch of stickers. Great company [emoji106]
> But why not just get your grapes or juice from your local distributor Harford? Isn't musto only selling their sourced juices and grapes at their location? I was under the impression they only allowed online ordering for specific items. And all those different vineyards listed in the ad are what they are bringing in to their location to sell in person.




I'm still going to Hartford - it's close and a good value. I'm just hoping that Hartford sources from Musto and will have the expanded selections from Washington, too.


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## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> I'm still going to Hartford - it's close and a good value. I'm just hoping that Hartford sources from Musto and will have the expanded selections from Washington, too.




I'm lucky enough to have 2 options for the fall. The one my family has always used in Philly gets their grapes and juice from Regina grapes. It's been around since the 40's and has very good quality grapes and juice IMHO. From San Joaquin Valley, which I know nothing about. They also source other varietals from Italy, such as the Sangiovese grapes/juice. Don't know much more than that. 
The other place in Jersey has a long list of different vineyards the grapes and juice are coming from, both Italy and Cali, though they don't specify what comes from where. Neither source anything from Washington....yet. 
In years passed I never out any thought into where specifically the grapes or juice were coming from. In the end my main drive is convenience and price-usually. Though Price will take a back seat this year going with all grapes and no juice. I need to stop handing over all my money to the Mrs and start my wine budget.


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## pgentile

AJ, as you know I get my grapes and juice from the same sources. I too feel quite lucky, now that this hobby has me hooked, what's available in our area. But last year, from our Philly source, I searched the labels on the lugs and the one source had been accused several years back of misrepresenting grapes as far as varietals and quality. Hopefully they don't still do it. With that said I have had nothing but good results from all purchases. Plus enjoy the free Italian cured meats, cheese and bread along with tasting whats in the barrel at that time. Even got to enjoy a tasty glass from a bottle opened by the owner from a prior years batch of Zin.

From the South Jersey source I feel they are a little more up front with the sources, and tend to have a wider variety of California sources in the Fall. They have good Italian eats as well, just none for free.


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## Ajmassa

YES! It's hard not to have anything but an enjoyable experience when heading down to south philly for the annual pickup. And I take those accusations with a grain of salt. This is old school Italians in old school s. Philly doing old school things. Good grapes, good wine, good snacks, good people - respect The godfather and be happy. Lol. 
Ok so we know Jim @jgmann67's fall plans with his Bordeaux. And @heatherd making every varietal under the sun this fall. And I mentioned my Super Tuscan all grape plan. Think I'll need 8 lugs to fill my demijohn. Still unsure of the ratios though. Sangiovese 4 lugs and Cab and Merlot 2 lugs each?? I had a great ST recently at 33% each so who knows. 
What's your plan for this fall?


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## NorCal

Having followed the Rhone recipe (Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre) this year, I've learned that the French know what they are doing with complementary grape varieties. I don't think you can go wrong with the combination of grapes/juice you have chosen. 

Do you pick up all the grapes at once or are they available when they are available?


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## pgentile

Everybodies fall plans sound good. @jgman67's Bordeaux, @Ajmassa5983's Super Tuscan, NorCal's Rhone. etc, etc. I just did a field blend Bordeax this spring, so I think I'm going to go a little further up the boot from AJ's Tuscany area and will play with some Nebbiolo this fall. But then again I had a good commercial Grenache last night, so the a Rhone style wine sounds good too right now.


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## Ajmassa

NorCal said:


> Having followed the Rhone recipe (Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre) this year, I've learned that the French know what they are doing with complementary grape varieties. I don't think you can go wrong with the combination of grapes/juice you have chosen.
> 
> Do you pick up all the grapes at once or are they available when they are available?




How do the EastCoasters get our Cali grapes? Don't take living in N. Cali for granted. For me I've always been able to pick everything up at once. Since it's a supplier and not a vineyard everything is stored at a frigid ~45° awaiting pickup. I'm sure different varietals availability timeframes may differ year to year. But it's only about a 2 week window for all pickups. (I missed my window last year. You snooze you lose. Which is how I came to giving kits a whirl as well as my 1st spring harvest batch)
Given that small window they may wait until they have everything until they open up for business. Lots of organization required on their part. I bet every supplier handles their business differently though. 
I've only done a couple blends so far and have been able to pick up all at once each time. Alicante/Muscat (numerous years) and Sangiovese(which is one of their Italian varietals and my favorite grape) /Syrah.


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## heatherd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> How do the EastCoasters get our Cali grapes? Don't take living in N. Cali for granted. For me I've always been able to pick everything up at once. Since it's a supplier and not a vineyard everything is stored at a frigid ~45° awaiting pickup. I'm sure different varietals availability timeframes may differ year to year. But it's only about a 2 week window for all pickups. (I missed my window last year. You snooze you lose. Which is how I came to giving kits a whirl as well as my 1st spring harvest batch)
> Given that small window they may wait until they have everything until they open up for business. Lots of organization required on their part. I bet every supplier handles their business differently though.
> I've only done a couple blends so far and have been able to pick up all at once each time. Alicante/Muscat (numerous years) and Sangiovese(which is one of their Italian varietals and my favorite grape) /Syrah.



At Harford, the grapes and juice sometimes come at the same time, sometimes not. I'm lucky to be fairly close - their supplier has sometimes spread my order over three delivery dates.

They have grapes/juice from California, Maryland, and Italy in the fall.


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## heatherd

mainshipfred said:


> When do they publish their pre order list. Everything on their site says out of stock



@mainshipfred Be sure to sign up on their website to receive emails from Harford, and they'll typically let you know when the site goes live.

If there's something you're interested in that isn't on the website, send them an email or call and they may be able to get it. I picked up Maryland Seyval Blanc that way.


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## Ajmassa

heatherd said:


> At Harford, the grapes and juice sometimes come at the same time, sometimes not. I'm lucky to be fairly close - their supplier has sometimes spread my order over three delivery dates.
> 
> 
> 
> They have grapes/juice from California, Maryland, and Italy in the fall.




What have you done in this situation? Just start em as you get em and blend later (if part of a blend)? That could be frustrating and bust up my groove. With life/work I like to pickup early Saturday so yeast is pitched by the time I'm back to the grind on Monday.


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## heatherd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> What have you done in this situation? Just start em as you get em and blend later (if part of a blend)? That could be frustrating and bust up my groove. With life/work I like to pickup early Saturday so yeast is pitched by the time I'm back to the grind on Monday.



@Ajmassa5983 It's tough, because there's typically a week between each delivery. Sometimes the juice pails and the grapes are one or even two weeks apart. When that happens, I just have to ferment what I have on hand and blend afterward.


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## Boatboy24

heatherd said:


> At Harford, the grapes and juice sometimes come at the same time, sometimes not. I'm lucky to be fairly close - their supplier has sometimes spread my order over three delivery dates.
> 
> They have grapes/juice from California, Maryland, and Italy in the fall.



Yep. I did 4 varietals last fall and made 4 trips. The year before: 4 varietals and 1 trip. Both years from the same grower. We'll see what happens this year. Mom and Dad just sold their house and the new one isn't going to be ready until Nov or Dec. We'll be hosting them for a bit, though not sure when yet, as they'll be spreading time between me and my sisters and traveling a bit. Perhaps I can convince them to be here during fermentation and get Dad to handle the punchdowns.


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## Boatboy24

heatherd said:


> @Ajmassa5983 It's tough, because there's typically a week between each delivery. Sometimes the juice pails and the grapes are one or even two weeks apart. When that happens, I just have to ferment what I have on hand and blend afterward.



I do the same. With the exception of my 2014 Chilean Cab/Merlot (which was a field blend), I just make things in 6+ gallon batches and then I don't have to worry about it.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Mom and Dad just sold their house and the new one isn't going to be ready until Nov or Dec. We'll be hosting them for a bit, though not sure when yet, ...



We have an extra couch if you need a place to sleep. 

I think we've turned the corner on our finances (I think) and if things work out I'd love to do a Cab Sauv batch from Lanza, we'll see how things go the next few months. Might have to save money for airline tickets to see our Son graduate from AF basic training in October.


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## heatherd

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep. I did 4 varietals last fall and made 4 trips. The year before: 4 varietals and 1 trip. Both years from the same grower. We'll see what happens this year. Mom and Dad just sold their house and the new one isn't going to be ready until Nov or Dec. We'll be hosting them for a bit, though not sure when yet, as they'll be spreading time between me and my sisters and traveling a bit. Perhaps I can convince them to be here during fermentation and get Dad to handle the punchdowns.



Here's hoping you'll have a wine helper! 

I had separate trips for the muscat canelli juice and the traminette grapes.


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## mainshipfred

heatherd said:


> @mainshipfred Be sure to sign up on their website to receive emails from Harford, and they'll typically let you know when the site goes live.
> 
> If there's something you're interested in that isn't on the website, send them an email or call and they may be able to get it. I picked up Maryland Seyval Blanc that way.



If everything goes as planned I won't need anything this fall. Getting everything local. It would be nice though if everyone's schedule worked out better then it did this past spring. I would come to Harford anyway just to meet everyone.


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## jgmann67

Looking at my supply list for the fall... 

* Yeast - I used the D254 for my PS last year. We're doing Cab, Merlot and probably Petit Verdot this year. I was thinking about the BM4x4 or RC-212. Thoughts on yeast selection?? 

* MLB - I have the VP41 stowed in the freezer. The instructions say one 2.5g packet is good for 66 gal of wine. Really?

* Need to pick up some Lallazyme-EX, Opti-Red and Tannin FT Rouge.

* I have plenty of Hungarian and French Oak cubes - they're medium plus toast.

* I think I need another Brute container - the three lugs of Merlot will do fine in the 20 gal brute I have from last year. But, I should probably pick up a bigger brute for the Cab (planning 6 gallons of juice and 3-4 lugs of grapes).

* Will 2 lugs of PV or CF fit in a 7.5 gal primary fermenter bucket?

* Every time I look at my supply of carboys, I can't help but think that having a few more is a good idea.

What am I forgetting???


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## Ajmassa

Vp-41 packet enough for 66 gal. Trust it. Every time I see this questioned it's always met with the same response by everyone. 
How bout some opti malo and acti-ml to go along? And go-ferm and Fermaid-k as well. I like the $5 Brehm additive packs from morewine. They supply enough for a 6 gal batch. Nice and easy. Includes the yeast nutrient and starter, llalyzyme ex, opti red and ft rouge. I'll just get 3 packs for only $15 total and have all my additives aside from ML handled 

I'm also getting a bigger brute. It seems like roughly whatever amount of gallons you will yield in wine is close to the same amount in gallons the skins will take up. 
So for me 15 gallons will be 7 lugs for 250 lbs. means 15 gallons of skins. Means 32 gallon brute is way too close for comfort so I'm grabbing a 44 gal. 
And I just did 54 lbs of cab grapes in a 7.9 pale and was very near to the top. 72 lbs sounds like it would not fit.


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## mainshipfred

Forgive me for asking but what is a Brute? In construction it is a large gray trash can.


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Forgive me for asking but what is a Brute? In construction it is a large gray trash can.



Exactly. They're food grade... perfect for winemaking.


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## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Vp-41 packet enough for 66 gal. Trust it. Every time I see this questioned it's always met with the same response by everyone.
> How bout some opti malo and acti-ml to go along? And go-ferm and Fermaid-k as well. I like the $5 Brehm additive packs from morewine. They supply enough for a 6 gal batch. Nice and easy. Includes the yeast nutrient and starter, llalyzyme ex, opti red and ft rouge. I'll just get 3 packs for only $15 total and have all my additives aside from ML handled



I'm going to look this up right now.


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## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Exactly. They're food grade... perfect for winemaking.



Not that I didn't believe you but I went online and looked it up. I would have never guessed they would be food grade. With that being said I promise I will buy new ones for making wine and not use my construction trash containers.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Forgive me for asking but what is a Brute? In construction it is a large gray trash can.




I needed a 20 gal and waited until last minute to grab one for spring grapes. All the new trashcans in stores have these grooves and indent air pockets in em for easier lifting bags out, but tougher for getting lees out. Need a 44, Planning ahead and ordering a smooth white can off amazon this time.

https://morewinemaking.com/products/additive-pack-brehm-frozen-fruit-reds.html
This is the $5 additive pack.


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## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> https://morewinemaking.com/products/additive-pack-brehm-frozen-fruit-reds.html
> This is the $5 additive pack.



That's perfect! I may struggle to get to $59 for the free shipping from morewine... yeah right.


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## jgmann67

My local Home Depot has a 32 gallon in stock... Looks like I'm getting me a new primary fermenter for my cab grapes this fall.


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## Ajmassa

I picked up a 32 gal from depot in May at the last minute. All the cans had vented sides and bottoms. Really not a huge deal, but would have preferred smooth for cleaning/scooping skins for press. 
Now that I need another I'm ordering a smooth can off Amazon for a great price. Not a Brute, but is food safe plastic. --some brands are food safe while many others are not.


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## Ajmassa

Hey I wanna throw out a couple questions for my batch. For a Tuscan blend majority Sangiovese. With merlot and cab. Thinking BM-45 but ICV-D21, and BDX are also highly recommended. But w/o experience with these yeasts I'm just shooting darts. Any reason one would be the best option? I like bm45 simply because it's said to be best choice for Sangiovese. 

And also since it's only 1 lug each of cab and merlot, I was curious about substituting the cab for Ruby Cab. I don't know much about ruby cab aside from that it's a carignan hybrid made more for blending then for a single varietal. Am I correct in thinking if using ruby cab I gain color but lose complexity?


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## Boatboy24

BM4X4 is one of my favorites - often used for big reds and almost always on big Italian reds.


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## ibglowin

Unless you have a whole lot of experience with problematic yeast you should avoid BM45 like the plague. Go with BM4x4 and rest assured you are getting the best of both worlds. One of the best yeast I have ever used and when used with Sangio you will be hard pressed to not grab a carboy straw from @ceeaton and start carboy tipping almost immediately.....


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## Ajmassa

Thanks. That's actually one of the handful of yeasts I have used before. I don't mind go-ferm and step feeding nutrient since I'll be doing that anyway if that's one of the bm45 concerns. 
My 3 choices were based off of morewines yeast pairing pdf and these were the only 3 yeasts shared by all 3 grapes. (And the only 3 at all for sangio) 
But I won't get picky and trust those that have been there before. Bm4x4 it is. 
This is the biggest grape batch I'll have done myself , not just as a helper. Usually a 5g packet per 5-6 gal juice. Morewine sells 8g though. For 250 lbs I was thinking x2 8g packets. Or should it be 3 packets?


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## ibglowin

You could get by with two 8gm packs or just go full bore crazy and use three 8 gm packs........

It will cost you a whole extra $2.69 though to do so!



Ajmassa5983 said:


> Usually a 5g packet per 5-6 gal juice. Morewine sells 8g though. For 250 lbs I was thinking x2 8g packets. Or should it be 3 packets?


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## Boatboy24

Anyone hear anything from Harford? I thought they are usually up and taking orders by now. I figured they're getting peppered with inquiries by now, so I thought I'd ask here first.


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## mainshipfred

This is the response I got on the 7th.

Fred,

We are still waiting for our fall pricing. As soon as we get it we will be able to update website.

As soon as we are able to take orders we will send a email letting everyone know.

Thanks,

Kevin


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Anyone hear anything from Harford? I thought they are usually up and taking orders by now. I figured they're getting peppered with inquiries by now, so I thought I'd ask here first.




I emailed them last week. Haven't gotten a response yet. Bet they're hopping.


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## Boatboy24




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## mainshipfred

I just got a price for local grapes. It was $1.50/lb. That should be in the ball park shouldn't it?


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I just got a price for local grapes. It was $1.50/lb. That should be in the ball park shouldn't it?



Comes out to about $54/lug. About right, I'd say, relative to Harford. Then again, you're not paying to ship 'em 3,000 miles.


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Comes out to about $54/lug. About right, I'd say, relative to Harford. Then again, you're not paying to ship 'em 3,000 miles.



The benefit of local, I would think, is they are harvesting their grapes for their own wines as well and more likely to harvest at the right time. A commercial exporter may not be quite as personal with their harvest.


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## jgmann67

Checking the news, things have kicked off nicely with the harvest in California. Reading that Pinot and Chard in some regions are already in. Lots of rain this season (85" compared to the usual 35-55"). Now, they just need dry weather over the next couple months. Berries are smaller, but yields are supposed to be average and the quality should be good. 

(I'm a little giddy right now)


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> I just got a price for local grapes. It was $1.50/lb. That should be in the ball park shouldn't it?



What type are they? Last year I got mine locally for $1.35/lb (for the Cab Franc) and paid $0.20/lb to get them de-stemmed and crushed (two years ago that included pressing my Chardonel that I purchased, though the base grape price for whites is in the $0.65/lb range).

So that sounds like a pretty fair price to me. I can't complain about any of the grapes I've purchased that were grown locally at this point. My local source keeps me updated as to the brix and when he plans to pick. First year I drove around with my brute as a constant back seat passenger in my car for a couple of weeks. I soon got wise and just delivered my brute to him when I ordered the grapes, much easier! (And the brute was a pretty quiet passenger anyway, never responded to any of my questions).


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## mainshipfred

Petit Manseng, Tannat and Norton. Planning on 6 gal of PM and Tannat and 10 gal Norton. I'm still waiting on a confirmation from another vineyard for Nebbiola. 

On another note I'm picking up two 5 gal and one six gal carboys and a floor corker than was used to cork only 40 bottles all for $40.00. Good ole Craigslist.


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## Boatboy24

Are you getting the PM from Pearmund? They got any more?

Are you getting grapes or juice for the whites?


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Are you getting the PM from Pearmund? They got any more?
> 
> Are you getting grapes or juice for the whites?



It is Pearmund and he was hesitant about the PM for some reason. He didn't seem to have a problem with the Tannat or Norton. I'll ask though. I'm not sure about the yield of the PM. How much are you planning on making?

It's all grapes although I never asked about juice.


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## Boatboy24

I'd be looking to have 6 gallons in the end. PM or Viognier, but I really liked their PM.


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I'd be looking to have 6 gallons in the end. PM or Viognier, but I really liked their PM.



Looks like 100lbs makes 5 gallons.

https://winemakermag.com/1662-petit-manseng


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Looks like 100lbs makes 5 gallons.
> 
> https://winemakermag.com/1662-petit-manseng



Interesting tidbit about the rice hulls.


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## mainshipfred

I thought so as well and meant to ask if anyone does this.


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> I thought so as well and meant to ask if anyone does this.



I've heard of beer makers using it in a mash to increase flow (and avoid a "set mash") when they sparge, but haven't heard about that in regards to winemaking.


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## Ajmassa

ceeaton said:


> I've heard of beer makers using it in a mash to increase flow (and avoid a "set mash") when they sparge, but haven't heard about that in regards to winemaking.




Cool article. I've read about the rice hulls in a couple articles, but haven't heard any actual accounts of anyone using rice. But I have heard people using this same principle by dropping stems in between cakes in basket presses for channels of juice flow.
When dealing with smaller batches that "significantly more yield" might come in handy.


----------



## ceeaton

For those who order from Harford, their California section is now "live". Looks like a very slight price increase (Lanza Cab when from $64.50 per lug to $65.00). There are some interesting "Out of Stock" grapes I see.

Addition: I also noticed that they are carrying the Italian juices again this year.


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> There are some interesting "Out of Stock" grapes I see.



[email protected]! One is the Pinot Noir that I'd planned to make this year.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> [email protected]! One is the Pinot Noir that I'd planned to make this year.



Time for plan "B". What is plan "B"?

I'd wait a bit. I noticed a few "Out of Stock" that are now in Stock in the last hour or so. You could always go with the Amador Gold version, +/- $14 a lug cheaper? The Lodi version is way cheaper too boot. But we know what we've been getting from Suisun Valley, so that is a bummer if it is true that they can't get any.


----------



## jgmann67

How long till orders have to be in? I'm guessing within a week or ten days. Don't recall from last year.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> [email protected]! One is the Pinot Noir that I'd planned to make this year.




Suisun Valley, El Dorado Pinot Noir is available... expensive, but there are 100 lugs from what the website says.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Suisun Valley, El Dorado Pinot Noir is available... expensive, but there are 100 lugs from what the website says.



That's the one I want. I'm nervous about making a Pinot Noir, because there are so many that disappoint me. So I want to get the best grapes I can. I trust Lanza after these few years to deliver a quality product.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> That's the one I want. I'm nervous about making a Pinot Noir, because there are so many that disappoint me. So I want to get the best grapes I can. I trust Lanza after these few years to deliver a quality product.



If you don't like it, just send it up to me and Jim, we'll take proper care of it for you....burp


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Suisun Valley, El Dorado Pinot Noir is available... expensive, but there are 100 lugs from what the website says.



Only 3600 lbs, what's the world coming to?


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Only 3600 lbs, what's the world coming to?




I'm thinking that's just a counter they don't use. It's like that for every varietal of grape they offer.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I'm thinking that's just a counter they don't use. It's like that for every varietal of grape they offer.



Where are you seeing that? I'm missing that one, but then again, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Where are you seeing that? I'm missing that one, but then again, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.




Bottom left side of the pic. Every one of them says 100 units.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Bottom left side of the pic. Every one of them says 100 units.



Still not seeing that. 

If they accept my money and don't give me my grapes I'm a gonna make them wish they hadn't disappointed me...if uins know what I mean...

Just kidding. I'm a wimp at heart.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Still not seeing that.
> 
> If they accept my money and don't give me my grapes I'm a gonna make them wish they hadn't disappointed me...if uins know what I mean...
> 
> Just kidding. I'm a wimp at heart.




Look just below the spot where you can change the quantity.


----------



## Boatboy24

Well, the counters are working, at least. I just made my order and the "Left in Stock" numbers changed.


----------



## jgmann67

Son of a gun. I went back and noticed only a couple unit numbers have changed. Hmmm.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Look just below the spot where you can change the quantity.
> 
> View attachment 38567



Okay, I seen it now, I seen it now...I told you I wasn't all that sharp.


----------



## jgmann67

Just picked up three more 6-gal glass carboys for this season. After I pick up my 32 gallon brute container, I will be officially "ready" for grapes.

I have not changed my mind as to what grapes I'm getting. But, sure as I'm sitting here, Harford just added a tab for WASHINGTON State grapes. Three varietals - Cab Sauv, Merlot and Pinot Noir. 

https://harfordvineyard.com/washington-state-grape/


----------



## jgmann67

jgmann67 said:


> Suisun Valley, El Dorado Pinot Noir is available... expensive, but there are 100 lugs from what the website says.



It disappeared from the website. I went on to ogle the listings again and don't see the PN. Not sure what is going on there.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> It disappeared from the website. I went on to ogle the listings again and don't see the PN. Not sure what is going on there.



Makes me a little concerned about my order.


----------



## jgmann67

Carboys - check.
Additives - check. 
Order wine - tomorrow.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> It disappeared from the website. I went on to ogle the listings again and don't see the PN. Not sure what is going on there.



Asked about it, and the El Dorado is in the Sierra Foothills section.


----------



## jgmann67

My grapes and juice are ordered.

Bucket of Cab Sauv
3 lugs Cab Sauv
3 lugs Merlot
3 lugs PV.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> My grapes and juice are ordered.
> 
> Bucket of Cab Sauv
> 3 lugs Cab Sauv
> 3 lugs Merlot
> 3 lugs PV.



Grapes from Lanza?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Grapes from Lanza?




Yep. They are.


----------



## jgmann67

Think I need another 20 gal and a 32 gal fermenter. Do the juice and three lugs of Cab together, and the Merlot and PV in their own fermenters.


----------



## heatherd

Thanks for the PM, Craig!! For whatever reason, Harford's email notifications are unreliable.

I ordered:
(1) California Chenin Blanc juice
(1) California Petite Syrah juice
(1) Lug Central Valley Petite Syrah grapes
(1) California Sauvignon Blanc juice
(1) California Zinfandel juice
(1) Lug Central Valley Old Vine Zinfandel grapes
(4) Lugs Washington Rattlesnake Hill Pinot Noir grapes

It will be my first time making Petite Syrah - I plan to BM4x4 as the yeast.


----------



## jgmann67

heatherd said:


> Thanks for the PM, Craig!! For whatever reason, Harford's email notifications are unreliable.




I was beginning to think it was just me. Hopefully, we'll get notices about approximate delivery dates and times. So far, I haven't gotten anything from them either.


----------



## joshs

Just picked up another 32 gal Brute fermenter. Right now leaning towards:

3 Lugs - Old Vine Carignane
3 Lugs - Cab (Lodi, Mukelumne River Greek Garden)
3 Lugs - Syrah (Lodi)

I might change up the Cab to Paso Robles but we will see.

-Josh


----------



## Boatboy24

heatherd said:


> Thanks for the PM, Craig!! For whatever reason, Harford's email notifications are unreliable.
> 
> I ordered:
> (1) California Chenin Blanc juice
> (1) California Petite Syrah juice
> (1) Lug Central Valley Petite Syrah grapes
> (1) California Sauvignon Blanc juice
> (1) California Zinfandel juice
> (1) Lug Central Valley Old Vine Zinfandel grapes
> (4) Lugs Washington Rattlesnake Hill Pinot Noir grapes
> 
> It will be my first time making Petite Syrah - I plan to BM4x4 as the yeast.



No Traminette?


----------



## jgmann67

Twiddling my fingers waiting... saw this on Musto's website and thought I'd share:

2017 Harvest Outlook for Suisun Valley, Lodi, and Central Valley
Published August 9, 2017 | By cmusto
Suisun Valley Harvest Outlook

Everything is maturing along in Suisun Valley. We are seeing verasion come to end in varieties such as Merlot and Sangiovese. Petite Sirah, Cabernet 169, and later varieties are still going through the verasion process. Looking at the maturity level of the grapes harvest should start around September 4th in Suisun Valley – beginning with Sauvignon Blanc and Chardonnay. The next varieties to pick will most likely be Merlot around September 10th and, Sangiovese, and Malbec around September 16th. The later varieties such as Petite Sirah and Cabernet 169 should harvest around late September/early October.


Lodi Harvest Outlook

Overall the Lodi crop looks great. The rain helped strengthen the deep roots this winter, which allowed the vines to grow a vigorous canopy. The big canopies from the record rain fall has protected the grapes from the summer heat. Therefore, it should be an average to slightly below average crop this year. Most varieties look normal, however Cabernet and Zinfandel look to be low slightly lighter than last year. The Lodi appellation is made up of mostly sandy loam soil and unlike the Central Valley they get constant cooler temps in the evenings. This area experiences 40 degree swings in temps that help with coloring the grapes and the skins are thicker which produce a dark juice high in tannins. This is why the region is famous for its delicious Zinfandels and Italian grapes.



Central Valley Harvest Outlook

With the extra rain fall Central Valley is looking to be a great harvest. The crop looks to be about the same as last year and we should be harvesting about 4-6 days later than last year. We anticipate some of the Central Valley fruit to start shipping to the East Coast around August 28th. Get your crushers ready!!


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Twiddling my fingers waiting... saw this on Musto's website and thought I'd share:
> 
> 2017 Harvest Outlook for Suisun Valley, Lodi, and Central Valley
> Published August 9, 2017 | By cmusto
> Suisun Valley Harvest Outlook
> 
> Everything is maturing along in Suisun Valley. We are seeing verasion come to end in varieties such as Merlot and Sangiovese. Petite Sirah, Cabernet 169, and later varieties are still going through the verasion process. Looking at the maturity level of the grapes harvest should start around September 4th in Suisun Valley – beginning with Sauvignon Blanc and Chardonnay. The next varieties to pick will most likely be Merlot around September 10th and, Sangiovese, and Malbec around September 16th. The later varieties such as Petite Sirah and Cabernet 169 should harvest around late September/early October.
> 
> 
> Lodi Harvest Outlook
> 
> Overall the Lodi crop looks great. The rain helped strengthen the deep roots this winter, which allowed the vines to grow a vigorous canopy. The big canopies from the record rain fall has protected the grapes from the summer heat. Therefore, it should be an average to slightly below average crop this year. Most varieties look normal, however Cabernet and Zinfandel look to be low slightly lighter than last year. The Lodi appellation is made up of mostly sandy loam soil and unlike the Central Valley they get constant cooler temps in the evenings. This area experiences 40 degree swings in temps that help with coloring the grapes and the skins are thicker which produce a dark juice high in tannins. This is why the region is famous for its delicious Zinfandels and Italian grapes.
> 
> 
> 
> Central Valley Harvest Outlook
> 
> With the extra rain fall Central Valley is looking to be a great harvest. The crop looks to be about the same as last year and we should be harvesting about 4-6 days later than last year. We anticipate some of the Central Valley fruit to start shipping to the East Coast around August 28th. Get your crushers ready!!



Sign up for their emails...


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> We anticipate some of the Central Valley fruit to start shipping to the East Coast around August 28th. Get your crushers ready!!




And that's exactly what I did yesterday. LHBS has just 1 available to rent. Made sure I locked it it down for myself so I wouldn't be scrambling come gametime!


----------



## ceeaton

Still not in the financial shape we had hoped to be by now, so I'm going on the cheap:

1 - Chenin Blanc Juice bucket
1 - White Zin Juice bucket
1 - Pinot Grigio Juice bucket

The PG is for my younger brother (actually his wife), so he'll be paying for the raw materials, I just make it (he even supplies the bottles, I just have to clean them). The other two are for my wife to drink and/or give away, which she really enjoys. 

I started doing an inventory tonight and have 76 gallons at various stages, but most will be over a year in the carboy by the end of next month, so I need to focus on bottling a batch or two each week or two. Have a lot of red wine, both fresh grapes and kits (Malbec, Cab Franc, Pinot Noir, Vieux Chateau du Roi, Brunello, Lanza Zin, Chianti, Syrah, plus a Blush kit and a bunch of various white wines (Chardonnay, Muscato, Pinot Grigio, Apple etc). 

So I think I can miss a season or two and empty out a few carboys. I want to spend some time making some robust all grain beer batches since Fall is a great time weather wise to brew up some beer. As I bottle wine the larger glass carboys can be borrowed for fermenting beer as they become empty.


----------



## ceeaton

heatherd said:


> I ordered:
> (1) California Chenin Blanc juice
> ...



Heather, what yeast are you using for your Chenin Blanc juice bucket? I was thinking of QA23 (I have it in my fridge), but if you have done one before with a different yeast I'd love to know your results.


----------



## jgmann67

I decided to get a little ahead of myself and build a bucket press for this fall. Outer bucket spigot doesn't leak. Lots of holes in the strainer bucket. The cab bucket I ordered will finish out the pieces I need to make this work.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I decided to get a little ahead of myself and build a bucket press for this fall. Outer bucket spigot doesn't leak. Lots of holes in the strainer bucket. The cab bucket I ordered will finish out the pieces I need to make this work.



Looking good. I'll rent you my big butt....glass a wine an hour. (actually butt weights 25 lbs less than last time, I'll give you a discount, 3/4 glass of wine per hour, I think that is fair).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Looking good. I'll rent you my big butt....glass a wine an hour. (actually butt weights 25 lbs less than last time, I'll give you a discount, 3/4 glass of wine per hour, I think that is fair).





Done! We're going to have about 320 lbs of grapes to press.


----------



## jgmann67

Just remembered I have 3-4 gallons of Petite Sirah skins in my freezer. What should I do with those??


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Done! We're going to have about 320 lbs of grapes to press.



Wow, that's more than my butt weighs!


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Just remembered I have 3-4 gallons of Petite Sirah skins in my freezer. What should I do with those??



Use them in a kit, of course.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Just remembered I have 3-4 gallons of Petite Sirah skins in my freezer. What should I do with those??



If you do the three grape types in separate containers, you could always add them to one of those. You'll probably get whatever yeast you used with the Petite Syrah dominating that ferment, though.

I agree with BB, I'd use them in a kit, if you ever get another red one (I feel like we've created a whole grape monster (sorta like Frankenstein)).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> If you do the three grape types in separate containers, you could always add them to one of those. You'll probably get whatever yeast you used with the Petite Syrah dominating that ferment, though.
> 
> I agree with BB, I'd use them in a kit, if you ever get another red one.





That's what I was thinking. Maybe the Petit Verdot. But, a cab or zin kit sounds pretty good, too.


----------



## heatherd

@Boatboy24, Ah, no Traminette, although I should because we are out!


----------



## heatherd

ceeaton said:


> Heather, what yeast are you using for your Chenin Blanc juice bucket? I was thinking of QA23 (I have it in my fridge), but if you have done one before with a different yeast I'd love to know your results.



My plan for the whites is ICV-D47 and BM4x4 for the reds. I have used this on whites in the past with good results. My last chenin blanc, I used Red Star Cote Blanc, and it turned out well.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

I have two options for fresh grapes: Lodi and Suisun Valley. I plan to make cab Sauv, cab franc, merlot, and Sangiovese. It looks like the suisun Valley is about 33-50% more than Lodi. Any opinions?


----------



## jgmann67

terroirdejeroir said:


> I have two options for fresh grapes: Lodi and Suisun Valley. I plan to make cab Sauv, cab franc, merlot, and Sangiovese. It looks like the suisun Valley is about 33-50% more than Lodi. Any opinions?





Kits or fresh - the advice is the same. Buy the best you can affford. I bought the cab, Merlot and Petit Verdot from the Suisun valley for this year. Last year's Petite Sirah from there made me very happy.


----------



## Ajmassa

terroirdejeroir said:


> I have two options for fresh grapes: Lodi and Suisun Valley. I plan to make cab Sauv, cab franc, merlot, and Sangiovese. It looks like the suisun Valley is about 33-50% more than Lodi. Any opinions?




I basically have the same decisions to make. I'm really not sure how common or problematic this is, BUT....

My plan is to split all my varietals 1/2 cheaper 1/2 premium all in the same batch. So 4 lugs of Sangiovese will be 2 and 2. And cab Sav 1 and 1 and Merlot 1 and 1. Again, not sure if this is a 'faux pas' or not, but it's my wine so I'll do what I want!


----------



## terroirdejeroir

jgmann67 said:


> Kits or fresh - the advice is the same. Buy the best you can affford. I bought the cab, Merlot and Petit Verdot from the Suisun valley for this year. Last year's Petite Sirah from there made me very happy.




Yes, I agree. I just would like some feedback that the suisun Valley fruit is noticeably better. I have been pretty happy with Lodi in previous years. Glad your PV is showing promise. Anybody else?


----------



## Boatboy24

I don't have a basis to compare, but the fruit I've been getting from Suisun the last few years is excellent.


----------



## Matty_Kay

Well, I've made the plunge into all grapes this year, my 4th making wine. Got a great deal on a used crusher in great shape and a press. Can't wait. Probably going to go with 3 lugs of Zinfandel, 3 lugs of Barbera or Sangiovese and 120 lbs of Lake Erie Concord. Plus 6 gallons of Traminette juice.


----------



## jgmann67

Any one heard from Harford lately? I don't get their emails, not sure why. But I'm seeing other outlets are getting their grapes in over the next week or so.


----------



## Boatboy24

Nothing here. 

I think we're still 2-3 weeks for Suisun. Look @ the harvest dates on Musto's site, and add 5-7 days.

Edit: looks like this year, they're not just showing harvest dates, but actually listing what is on it's way East. So you can probably be within a day or two, Harford will have the same stuff. Seems like Lodi will start to trickle in this weekend.


----------



## jgmann67

Got an email response from Harford. They're sending out an email update next week. But, it appears I have some time.


----------



## Matty_Kay

Placed my California grape order from our local supplier. Plans are 3 lugs of Zinfandel and keeping as a single varietal and 2 lugs Syrah plus 1 lug of Grenache, co-fermenting the Syrah and Grenache. Lake Erie Concored grapes in in mid-October.


----------



## Ajmassa

Well I spent the better part of a workday yesterday and all afternoon today prepping, Cleaning all the glass and buckets and sanitizing, organizing everything involved. Even Took inventory and overhauled my whole work area. Really brutal with the washtub being upstairs. But im done. 
With Every batch I get a little better at preparing and knowing what to do, and what to have ready and all that. Trying to do everything possible to make sure this season will go as smooth as possible without any hiccups or scrambling last minute for something or another. I'm sure I forgot something!


----------



## mainshipfred

Has anyone bought any of the Italian juices or have any recommendations. Just received an email from Harford that they will be shipping early and I may want to try on. I like big bold reds.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Has anyone bought any of the Italian juices or have any recommendations. Just received an email from Harford that they will be shipping early and I may want to try on. I like big bold reds.



I did a Valpolicella a few years back. It was OK. Very light.


----------



## joshs

I have my orders locked in, supplies on the way and everything cleaned up and ready to go!

I am doing the following:

3 lugs of Old Vine Carignane
3 lugs of Cab Sauv from Mukelumne River Lodi
2 lugs of Washington Cab Franc

No juices for me this year, although I might get a bucket to mix with a Saison fermentation.

-Josh


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I did a Valpolicella a few years back. It was OK. Very light.



Thanks, that was one I was thinking about but would rather settle for better then OK. BTW, I can't do Friday, sorry.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> BTW, I can't do Friday, sorry.



No word yet on anything coming in. Either way, I will likely be up there once or twice more.


----------



## mainshipfred

It appears my grapes are 2 weeks and that is about the same time as the Italian juices. Next Friday I am working the crush pad at Pearmund so that is out.


----------



## jgmann67

Primaries are sanitized and labeled. All supplies are in stock. Taking the drive to pick up grapes with my son tomorrow morning. Need sleep...


----------



## jgmann67

Traveled down first thing this morning. Picked up. Met Fred while I was there (Hi Fred!). 

The Cab and petit verdot are fairly mushy (the Cab even more so because I dumped 6 gallons of juice in with three lugs of grape). The Merlot, though, is pretty solid with less available juice than the other two. 

The bucket of Cab juice was a little bloated, like it's already fermenting or releasing co2. The juice tasted very good. 

Working in the Kmeta into the Merlot to kill wild yeast and bacteria was a pain. The other two were fine. 

The must is about 45* all around. Still need to test for TA (need test kit... oops), pH and OG before adding other stuff and kicking this thing off. 

Headed to the LHBS now and will revisit the fermenters in a bit.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Traveled down first thing this morning. Picked up. Met Fred while I was there (Hi Fred!).
> 
> The Cab and petit verdot are fairly mushy (the Cab even more so because I dumped 6 gallons of juice in with three lugs of grape). The Merlot, though, is pretty solid with less available juice than the other two.
> 
> The bucket of Cab juice was a little bloated, like it's already fermenting or releasing co2. The juice tasted very good.
> 
> Working in the Kmeta into the Merlot to kill wild yeast and bacteria was a pain. The other two were fine.
> 
> The must is about 45* all around. Still need to test for TA (need test kit... oops), pH and OG before adding other stuff and kicking this thing off.
> 
> Headed to the LHBS now and will revisit the fermenters in a bit.
> 
> View attachment 39668
> View attachment 39669
> View attachment 39670
> View attachment 39671


If you can keep samples cold so they don't start fermenting (at least 15 ml of each) I can test your TA (or we can just wait post primary fermentation and de-carbonate the samples). Just have to figure when to cross paths. I'm away next weekend to close the cabin with my younger brother, and have a car appointment on an unknown day next week, plus Monday is out because I have to get home early to take the oldest daughter to field hockey practice by 3 pm. So the window of opportunity is rather small.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> The Merlot, though, is pretty solid with less available juice than the other two.



You got Lanza grapes, right? Mine was the same. Brix through the roof as well, so all isn't lost - you'll have to water it down. Make sure you get some tartaric at the LHBS - both for acid adjustment and to acidulate the water.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Traveled down first thing this morning. Picked up. Met Fred while I was there (Hi Fred!).
> 
> Thanks for the wine Jim. Sorry I forgot to bring mine. I owe you two bottles now. Was good meeting you.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> You got Lanza grapes, right? Mine was the same. Brix through the roof as well, so all isn't lost - you'll have to water it down. Make sure you get some tartaric at the LHBS - both for acid adjustment and to acidulate the water.





Yes, we're on the same path, I think. Lanza Cab and Merlot, LMP Petit Verdot. 

I'm going to leave the grapes be for the day and give them a chance to come up to a proper temp. Tonight before bed, I'll hit each batch with Llalazyme, stir and call it a day.

Tomorrow, we'll get good samples and test each batch for pH and OG. If the pH is whacky, I'll test TA and adjust accordingly. If my gravity is as I suspect - off the charts high - for any of them, I'll go the same route as BBJim and add some aciduated water before hitting it with yeast/tannin/nutrient.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Yes, we're on the same path, I think. Lanza Cab and Merlot, LMP Petit Verdot.



My Lanza this year is Merlot and Malbec. Doing Amador Gold Cab Franc and El Dorado Pinot Noir (not in yet).


----------



## jgmann67

So with the enzyme, MoreWine says 0.1g/gallon of must. It looks like about 10-12 gallons in the fermentor, and will produce about 7 gallons of wine. I'm going to drop 1g of it in the two fermentors with three lugs of grapes each, and 1.5g in the Cab juice/grape combo. Sound about right?


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> So with the enzyme, MoreWine says 0.1g/gallon of must. It looks like about 10-12 gallons in the fermentor, and will produce about 7 gallons of wine. I'm going to drop 1g of it in the two fermentors with three lugs of grapes each, and 1.5g in the Cab juice/grape combo. Sound about right?



More than suggested doesn't hurt as far as I know, at least it hasn't for me. I'd go with your 7 gallons for 3 lugs of grapes (or slightly higher) as the minimum to do your calculations. If I have three batches with grapes, I'd put a bit more in the all grape batch verses the one with the juice bucket added. I never save the stuff, just buy more next time.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> . Sorry I forgot to bring mine. I owe you two bottles now. Was good meeting you.





You'll enjoy it, I think. It's awesome with a big traditional Italian meal or a good steak. Decant for an hour and enjoy. The only condition I have with giving wine to people is getting an honest opinion in return.


----------



## jgmann67

The must is 58*. I dropped the Llalazyme and gave each a good stir. 

Still really amazed at how dense the Merlot is. Hope the enzyme does good things overnight.


----------



## jgareri

Boatboy24 said:


> My Lanza this year is Merlot and Malbec. Doing Amador Gold Cab Franc and El Dorado Pinot Noir (not in yet).



I was debating the El Dorado Pinot. Please let me know how it turns out


----------



## jgmann67

This morning, I gave the musts a good stir. With plenty of juice in the fermenters, I decided to check my gravity.

The Cab and PV both came in at 1.100 @ 64*. With a potential ABV of about 14%, I'm right where I want to be. 

The Merlot is another story. It came in at 1.124 @64*. Potential ABV here is north of 17%. Looks like I need to brush up on acidulated (not sure how to spell that) water addition to drop me down to a sub-rocket fuel level. 

@Jim - I'm guessing that's consistent with what you got, too.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> This morning, I gave the musts a good stir. With plenty of juice in the fermenters, I decided to check my gravity.
> 
> The Cab and PV both came in at 1.100 @ 64*. With a potential ABV of about 14%, I'm right where I want to be.
> 
> The Merlot is another story. It came in at 1.124 @64*. Potential ABV here is north of 17%. Looks like I need to brush up on acidulated (not sure how to spell that) water addition to drop me down to a sub-rocket fuel level.
> 
> @Jim - I'm guessing that's consistent with what you got, too.


So did the Lallzyme make that Merlot nice and juicy by this morning?


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> So did the Lallzyme make that Merlot nice and juicy by this morning?





Easier to work, but not there quite yet.

If I'm doing my math correctly, I'll need to add about a gallon of water to the must to bring it down to about 24 Brix/1.100 OG.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Easier to work, but not there quite yet.
> 
> If I'm doing my math correctly, I'll need to add about a gallon of water to the must to bring it down to about 24 Brix/1.100 OG.



Go slow. I calculated approximately 1 gallon as well. It was too much. Could be that I didn't stir it in well enough though. Add half, stir a couple times over an hour or two, then remeasure.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Go slow. I calculated approximately 1 gallon as well. It was too much. Could be that I didn't stir it in well enough though. Add half, stir a couple times over an hour or two, then remeasure.





Good call. Did you add tartaric acid or let it ride? 

I added 2 liters of spring water and will wait an hour to do anything more.


----------



## jgmann67

Checked and the OG is down to 1.110 range. I added another liter of water and will let it sit till later this afternoon. From there, I’ll look at the OG and pH for all three before kicking off with yeast, nutrient and opti. 

After a stir, temps are at 63*.


----------



## mainshipfred

Couple of questions on Cali juice.
1. The juice started fermenting with the wild yeasts so I don't know what the starting SG is or was. I have a Zin and White Zin at 1.078 and a Barbera at 1.081. Should I make sugar adjustments?

2. The White Zin Ph is 2.85 TA 6.10. Is 2.85 too low. Not sure how much I want to lower the TA

3. The Zin is Ph 3.14 TA 7.5 and the Barbera is Ph 2.97 TA 6.5. I don't hate these but any thoughts?

The Zin also has a lug of grapes. I'm going to split the Zin and innoculate with 2 different yeast strands and combine after Primary and before MLF.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Good call. Did you add tartaric acid or let it ride?
> 
> I added 2 liters of spring water and will wait an hour to do anything more.



23g tartaric per gallon of water.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Couple of questions on Cali juice.
> 1. The juice started fermenting with the wild yeasts so I don't know what the starting SG is or was. I have a Zin and White Zin at 1.078 and a Barbera at 1.081. Should I make sugar adjustments?
> 
> 2. The White Zin Ph is 2.85 TA 6.10. Is 2.85 too low. Not sure how much I want to lower the TA
> 
> 3. The Zin is Ph 3.14 TA 7.5 and the Barbera is Ph 2.97 TA 6.5. I don't hate these but any thoughts?
> 
> The Zin also has a lug of grapes. I'm going to split the Zin and innoculate with 2 different yeast strands and combine after Primary and before MLF.



Your TA's are in range. pH reading can be thrown by CO2, IIRC. I wouldn't adjust. Get good starters going with your yeast and let it ride.


----------



## jgmann67

Survey says... pH

Lanza Cab Sauv - 3.4 
LMP Petit Verdot - 3.7 
Lanza Merlot - 3.6

I’m not going to monkey around at this point. These numbers make me happy. Plus, I think the Cab is kicking off fermentation without me. 

Each must got FT Rouge, Opti Red, and rehydrated yeast (BM4x4) with GoFerm. 

We’re off to the races.

Punching 2x a day, will add Fermaid K at 1.06 SG.


----------



## mainshipfred

[Get good starters going with your yeast and let it ride.[/QUOTE]

I figured as much with the CO2. I did make an attempt to rid some of it by shaking the sample before testing. Just pitched the yeast. Made a rookie mistake though. When I added the yeast nutrient I added it too fast and had a vulcano. Bet I lost over a bottle. Thank goodness my shop floor is concrete. I've never done more then one batch at a time. This time I did 3 and still keeping my fingers crossed for the Norton and Tannat.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> Made a rookie mistake though. When I added the yeast nutrient I added it too fast and had a vulcano.



Well, at least you got that mistake out of the way. I am willing to bet you won't make the same mistake again!


----------



## jgmann67

My concern with the Cab appears to be well founded. The wine is already making a great cap and is a few degrees warmer than the other two. I just hope the BM4x4 overtakes whatever wild yeast was in there.

The other two aren't forming a cap yet... only been half a day since I pitched. Getting the starts of a ferment though - developing co2. Cap will start forming by tomorrow, I'll bet.

Everything smells good.


----------



## mainshipfred

I mentioned earlier my juice buckets already started fermenting when I picked them up. The SG was 1.080 at this point. I added 1 lug of Zin grapes to the Zin juice and split the batch equally. In one I used Vintner's Harvest R56 and the other Lalvin RC 212. The Barbera I added skins I saved from Sarah I made in the spring and used the same Vintner's Harvest yeast. I pitched the yeast on Sunday around 3:00. This morning they are all +/-.997. The juice temp yesterday was 88*F. This is a really fast ferment. I also used 1 tsp of LD Carlson yeast nutrient per gallon. Did the initial wild yeast help expedite the process?


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> I mentioned earlier my juice buckets already started fermenting when I picked them up. The SG was 1.080 at this point. I added 1 lug of Zin grapes to the Zin juice and split the batch equally. In one I used Vintner's Harvest R56 and the other Lalvin RC 212. The Barbera I added skins I saved from Sarah I made in the spring and used the same Vintner's Harvest yeast. I pitched the yeast on Sunday around 3:00. This morning they are all +/-.997. The juice temp yesterday was 88*F. This is a really fast ferment. I also used 1 tsp of LD Carlson yeast nutrient per gallon. Did the initial wild yeast help expedite the process?



Certainly it did. Normally, when we get our must going, we pitch yeast and wait a day or two for lag phase to complete and our fermentation to get going. Your wine was already through that part of the process and was fermenting. Your cultured yeast probably took over the balance of the ferment once it had produced enough cells. Good nutrient protocol keeps things moving well. Additionally, the higher temps speed the process along greatly. 

My grapes this year were crushed Friday, yeast pitched Saturday, first cap on Sunday, and here I am on Tuesday planning to press already.


----------



## mainshipfred

Thanks John, it just really surprised me.


----------



## jgmann67

Just got home from nyc. My oldest daughter has been punching down the wine in my absence. All three are chugging along nicely. 

The Cab is at 1.05 SG so I dropped the scheduled Nutrient. The other two are around 1.08-ish, so they can ride another day till I add anything there. 

They smell good, look good and things are moving along.


----------



## mainshipfred

Stopped my White Zin at 1.005 which will give me 1.3% residual sugar. I'm making this one for my wife and she likes it a little sweet.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Stopped my White Zin at 1.005 which will give me 1.3% residual sugar. I'm making this one for my wife and she likes it a little sweet.



How did you stop it? Not recommended for the home winemaker. Are you adding sorbate and sulfite now?


----------



## jgmann67

Quick question: the Cab and PV are fermenting very similar to my PS last season. But the Merlot is a little different.

When I punch it down, the co2 is frothy to the point of being creamy looking. It smells fine and chugging along otherwise. Is this anything to be concerned about?


----------



## Boatboy24

What yeast on the Merlot? Not likely anything of concern.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> What yeast on the Merlot? Not likely anything of concern.





I used BM4x4 for all three.


----------



## cmason1957

Merlot is just a different beast, sometimes. I have heard of times when for no apparent reason if just acts odd.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> Merlot is just a different beast, sometimes. I have heard of times when for no apparent reason if just acts odd.





This morning's punch, it looked more normal. The BM4X4 really causes a good bit of fizz. I'll hit it again before I leave for work. 

The basement is full of the smells of winemaking. No signs of fruit flies.


----------



## JohnT

jgmann67 said:


> This morning's punch, it looked more normal. The BM4X4 really causes a good bit of fizz. I'll hit it again before I leave for work.
> 
> The basement is full of the smells of winemaking. No signs of fruit flies.


 
Have you been taking temperature readings? 

Ahhh The smell of fermentation. I love it but the wife not so much.. 

Fruit flies are a real PITA! Keep an eye out, they might still show up.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> How did you stop it? Not recommended for the home winemaker. Are you adding sorbate and sulfite now?



I racked it, added half the sorbate and then put it in my chest freezer at 40* where I'll keep it for about a week and see how much sediment drops. If it's sufficient I'll filter it, add the rest of the sorbate and sulfite it. I'm not really worried about the color since it's a little darker then I would like.


----------



## jgmann67

JohnT said:


> Have you been taking temperature readings?
> 
> Ahhh The smell of fermentation. I love it but the wife not so much..
> 
> Fruit flies are a real PITA! Keep an eye out, they might still show up.





Yes. Temps are perfect - 76-77* F. 

My wife isn't a huge fan of the smell either. It's fine at first. But, her office is in the basement too. So, it gets a little too much for her after a while. 

I fed the PV and the Merlot this morning. All three look healthy and happy. 

I always keep a fresh fly strip up in the wine room. And, this morning I placed an apple cider vinegar trap (glass with vinegar at the bottom, funnel over top) on the shelf near the wines (just in case). Hope that keeps me fly-free.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I always keep a fresh fly strip up in the wine room. And, this morning I placed an apple cider vinegar trap (glass with vinegar at the bottom, funnel over top) on the shelf near the wines (just in case). Hope that keeps me fly-free.



We only have the unpasteurized vinegar with the 'mother', so I'm always scared to put vinegar in the trap. I use red wine.


----------



## Johnd

I use BM 4x4 on the vast majority of my ferments, and find it to be quite frothy for the first day or two of vigorous fermentation. It leaves a light layer of foam on top of the skins after punching down. After that, it settles down, just fizzing at puchdown, but without any lasting foam or bubbles.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> My wife isn't a huge fan of the smell either. It's fine at first. But, her office is in the basement too. So, it gets a little too much for her after a while.



Hmmm. I'm thinking of a new "wife repellent" type product. Ode 'de ferment.

I only did a few juice buckets and the fruit flies are still hanging around in my basement (I catch them and feed them to the neon tetras, they love 'em). We really need a nice frost, been too warm and the buggers are everywhere (I have to cover my red wine glass when I'm grilling or I get some extra protein every time I take a sip).


----------



## jgmann67

So here's something I missed... I used BM4X4 in my ferment. The Cab is 9% ABV this evening. The other two are at about 6% ABV. Found out this evening that this yeast is about the worst for MLF and I'm a little late to the game to do a co-inoculation.

I was planning to us VP-41. 

What do I do?


----------



## cmason1957

I responded on another thread, but will also here. Don't fret, I think you will be fine. I have used BM4x4 and MLB after fermentation at least twice. Went fine for me.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> I responded on another thread, but will also here. Don't fret, I think you will be fine. I have used BM4x4 and MLB after fermentation at least twice. Went fine for me.





Thanks! Having a little panic moment. I picked the VP-41 because it's so hearty. I probably would have co-inoculated with a different MLB or used a different yeast if I knew better. Live and learn.


----------



## balatonwine

JohnT said:


> Ahhh The smell of fermentation. I love it but the wife not so much..



One woman I once knew said she wanted to bottle that aroma into a perfume she loved it so much

I did not marry her. 

Long story why not. Don't ask. 

My now wife also likes the aroma of fermentation. Just not quite at that "perfume" quality level. None the less, with all things considered, including compensating benefits, I am still delighted with my current choice.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just racked and pressed my Zin bucket and one lug of Old Vine Zin grapes. I netted over 9 gallons of wine. I would have never thought 1 lug would yield ove 3 gallons.


----------



## JohnT

balatonwine said:


> One woman I once knew said she wanted to bottle that aroma into a perfume she loved it so much
> 
> I did not marry her.
> 
> Long story why not. Don't ask.
> 
> My now wife also likes the aroma of fermentation. Just not quite at that "perfume" quality level. None the less, with all things considered, including compensating benefits, I am still delighted with my current choice.


 

That's OK, I bet she makes a GREAT chicken paprikash!


----------



## balatonwine

JohnT said:


> That's OK, I bet she makes a GREAT chicken paprikash!



Yep. And my wife once won a Pörkölt cooking competition.


----------



## JohnT

balatonwine said:


> Yep. And my wife once won a Pörkölt cooking competition.


 
AWESOME! I almost feel sorry for Hon-Hungarians not having tasted a good Pörkölt. 

My grandmother was an amazing cook! She could make a four-star meal out of nothing but boiled water... 

Pörkölt was one of her best dishes in my opinion. The subject of which was her best dish has been the start of many friendly family arguments. 

To go along with the Pörkölt, she used to dress cold, blanched lettuce in a sour cream/vinegar dressing. That salad, with home made bread and Pörkölt, completed the best meal I ever ate.

Unfortunately, Grandma (or "Nagi Mama" as we called her) hated to share recipes and has passed on several years ago. I can definitely make her salad and my Pörkölt, it is good, but doesn't seem to be nearly as good as Nagi Mama's. 

Care to share your wife's recipe?


----------



## balatonwine

JohnT said:


> Care to share your wife's recipe?



I would. If I knew it. My wife has no recipe box. Everything in her head. Between you and me (so, please, everyone else on the planet reading this, look away especially if you are easily triggered by gender comments), I think it would be easier to get the keys to Fort Knox than getting a Pörkölt recipe from a Hungarian woman, where her domestic pride comes from the accolades she gets from the men at her table for her cooking. She is not going to share that. 

The best I can do if offer a recipe of sorts from a good friend of mine, a folk historian and great cook, at one of my blogs:

Texas Chili and Hungarian Pörkölt a cultural parallel with capsicum


----------



## jgmann67

I looked up Porkolt (can't find the alt character on my keyboard) - it looks like awesome, hearty food. Wiki says the main ingredient is "meat" (any kind, really). Cool. 

Checked my ferment last night and the Cab is down to 1.024 and the other two are 1.034. Temps @ 78* for all three. I'll be pressing something (at least the Cab) this weekend, I think. 

All three wines still look and smell great. 

Question on rehydrating the MLB. I have 2.5g of the VP-41, 5g of acti-ML, and some ML nutrient from LB Carlson. I'm a week away from starting an ML, at least, so I can order something different if needed. 

Any suggestions on dosage and mixture for rehydration?


----------



## JohnT

balatonwine said:


> I think it would be easier to get the keys to Fort Knox than getting a Pörkölt recipe from a Hungarian woman, where her domestic pride comes from the accolades she gets from the men at her table for her cooking. She is not going to share that.


 
AMEN BROTHER!! OMG, THAT DESCRIBES MY NAGIMAMA to a TEE! 

She was famous for leaving out an ingredient or, perhaps, switching something! 

One example is that she left out small shot of vanilla extract in her Kolache (nut roll) recipe. Try as I might, my nut roll came out fine, just like Nagimama's, but for some reason, her's was always better. My wife figured it out (she likes to bake) which did not make her very popular with Nagimama. 

.. And now you may have broken another one of her secrets! Marjoram! She had me using thyme! I can't wait to try that out.


----------



## JohnT

jgmann67 said:


> I looked up Porkolt (can't find the alt character on my keyboard) - it looks like awesome, hearty food. Wiki says the main ingredient is "meat" (any kind, really). Cool.


 
As far as comfort food goes, Porkolt is like the afterwards hug (giggidy).


----------



## jgmann67

The PV and Merlot seem to have caught up to the Cab. They're all coming in around the 1.015 range @ 77* F. Tomorrow evening might be a good day to press.


----------



## jgmann67

All three are now at 1.006 or lower. Setting up for a good night of pressing.


----------



## jgmann67

The PV is pressed. Very dark. There was a big pile of seeds at the bottom of the fermenter. Struck my kinda funny.


Merlot is next.


----------



## jgmann67

All three wines are pressed. About 26 gallons total. All equipment is rinsed and drying and the wine room is clean. 

I'm a couple airlocks short, unfortunately. Will get them on Tuesday. Till then, Saran Wrap and rubber bands will do. 




I was surprised to find a handful of fruit flies in my basement. After 8 days of fermenting and only seeing one (that I promptly squashed), there were about 4 or 5 buzzing around the basement while I pressed my grapes. I have a fan system in my basement (from when it was a bar, to remove smoke), and I flipped that on. By the time cleanup was done, they were gone again.


----------



## jgmann67

So here’s a little lesson I learned tonight... lots of pressure can build up in a sealed jug. Bad things will happen when you open them. That is all.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So here’s a little lesson I learned tonight... lots of pressure can build up in a sealed jug. Bad things will happen when you open them. That is all.




[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SKjjvGoeJM[/ame]


----------



## jgmann67

It was terrible... wine on the ceiling... wine everywhere. Soaked a good suit that may or may not be salvageable. 

Took me an hour to clean it up. 

So, after that, I swapped out the airlocks on my other wines for Saran Wrap. Seriously, why didn't I think of that on Sunday? Just glad I got to the other two and did a controlled release before they exploded.


----------



## mainshipfred

I was out of air locks as well and used baggies and rubber bands. They are still on and there are no signs of any pressure build up. There was a post I read that someone only used baggies on his aging wines as a regular habit.


----------



## Boatboy24

I have plastic wrap and a twist tie on a half gallon jug of my Merlot right now. Still bubbling, so I'm not worried.


----------



## jgmann67

Been a long few days at work. I haven't gotten home before 10:00 p.m. yet. Hoping to check and rack the wines tonight.


----------



## jgmann67

Racked and inoculated with vp41 and nutrient. Hope it kicks off. Will stir twice a week. 

I mixed 250ml of spring water with dissolved nutrient and the VP41 @70-ish degrees for about 15 minutes, stirred and added approximately equal amounts of the liquid to each of the 4 carboys. Hoping I did that right.


----------



## jgmann67

We'll be at +36 hours since dropping MLB. Going to give it a stir this morning before work. Hope to see some sign of life.


----------



## jgmann67

Gave all four wines a good stir this morning. No real signs of active MLF. But, it's still early. No need to panic just yet.

I do have one concern though. I gave each carboy a good sniff and they all had the same sour-nose to them. The more I think about it, the more I worry. 

Is this something I should be concerned about and if so, what should I do about it?


----------



## cmason1957

My latest MLF took almost a month to really kick off where I could see any activity, so don't even think about worrying for quite a while, would be my suggestion. As far as off smell, I have often thought I had a minor off smell at this point, but by the end of MLF it seems to be gone. If it were really noticeable and offensive, I would probably try to do something about it, but faint off smells right now, probably don't mean much.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> My latest MLF took almost a month to really kick off where I could see any activity, so don't even think about worrying for quite a while, would be my suggestion. As far as off smell, I have often thought I had a minor off smell at this point, but by the end of MLF it seems to be gone. If it were really noticeable and offensive, I would probably try to do something about it, but faint off smells right now, probably don't mean much.





Thanks. 

Unless someone can guide me to do otherwise, I’ll keep track of it; monitor for active fermentation; and test it in a couple weeks to see where I am. If the smell gets worse or the taste gets funky, I’m willing to pull the plug on the MLF if necessary.


----------



## terroirdejeroir

Interesting stuff. I did an experiment this year and inoculated with MLB at the same time as I pitched yeast. I was very careful about adding all the right nutrients for MLB and for the yeasties. All grapes are pressed and finishing up alcoholic fermentation to one degree or another, but I do have one batch that is totally complete and I can see the MLF perking along. If this ends well it will be my new SOP. Anyone have any experience with co-inoculation that would like to add anything?


----------



## Johnd

cmason1957 said:


> My latest MLF took almost a month to really kick off where I could see any activity, so don't even think about worrying for quite a while, would be my suggestion. As far as off smell, I have often thought I had a minor off smell at this point, but by the end of MLF it seems to be gone. If it were really noticeable and offensive, I would probably try to do something about it, but faint off smells right now, probably don't mean much.



Don't fret too much right now about small, off smells, it just finished fermenting, still some funkiness still in there.

If you're worried about MLF, clean and dry the glass of your carboy from the shoulders all of the way to the neck, turn the lights off in the room, and shine a flashlight into the wine between the shoulders and the neck. Look for super tiny bubbles moving slowly upward. They can be hard to see with the naked eye in ambient light, but a flashlight in the dark helps out a lot.

If you don't see any, don't get worried, it doesn't always show up this way. I have 8 carboys right now, 3 came out of the same fermenter, two show bubbles, one doesn't.........Your chromo tests will tell the real tale.


----------



## jgmann67

Tiny bubbles... in my wine.



Now that that song is stuck in your head, three of the four carboys are showing good signs on MLF. The petit verdot is the slow starter.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Tiny bubbles... in my wine.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that that song is stuck in your head, three of the four carboys are showing good signs on MLF. The petit verdot is the slow starter.



So you saw the little bubbles, that’s a good sign. Sorry bout the song, you’ll have to figure out how to manage that!


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> So you saw the little bubbles, that’s a good sign. Sorry bout the song, you’ll have to figure out how to manage that!





A little Don Ho isn't a bad thing. [emoji12]

Hoping to see some bubbles in the PV this morning. The funky sour smell is thinning out, too. Life is good (knock wood).


----------



## sour_grapes

jgmann67 said:


> A little Don Ho isn't a bad thing. [emoji12]



Where is @hokapsig when we need him?


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Tiny bubbles... in my wine.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that that song is stuck in your head, three of the four carboys are showing good signs on MLF. The petit verdot is the slow starter.



Foolproof way to get MLF going is to simply play a little Don Ho.


----------



## jgmann67

PV started active MLF this morning.


----------



## jgmann67

I gave the wines a good stir and headed out to Pittsburgh for work. Going to sleep really well this weekend.

Been a week in secondary and the wines have a bit of a sour nose.


----------



## jgmann67

No bentonite, no clarifiers... going clear without them.


----------



## mainshipfred

Doing my first all grape batch. What is the trick to getting enough of a sample to test the gravity. I put a strainer over a measuring cup drained the free run, but had to repeat several times.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Doing my first all grape batch. What is the trick to getting enough of a sample to test the gravity. I put a strainer over a measuring cup drained the free run, but had to repeat several times.





Patience... I did the strainer thing last time around and it was a bit of a pain. Changed gears this year. When the cap is good and solid, I take my wine thief and punch through the cap to where the juice is. No fuss or muss... Works like a charm.


----------



## mainshipfred

Appears I have more cap then juice. I tried that but no juice.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Appears I have more cap then juice. I tried that but no juice.





Try punching the wine down first, wait 5 min, then thief some wine. YMMV.


----------



## mainshipfred

Well after the Cali and my local order I will end my first year of making with 75 gallons of wine.
Varietal Amt What? Start
Malbec 6 gal Wine Expert Eclipse 10l kit 1-02
Trio Red 6 gal RJS En Primeur 18l w skins 1-28
Amarosso 6 gal Mosti Mondiale Megioli 23L w raisons 3-10
Pino Noir 6 gal RJS En Primeur 18l w skins 3-14
Syrah 8 gal Harford Juice & 1 lug 5-06
Peach 5 gal Vintner's Best & 4lb fresh fruit 7-15
White Zin 5 gal Harford Juice 10-08
Barbera 6 gal Harford Juice 10-08
Zin 9 gal Harford Juice & 1 lug 10-09
Norton 12 gal? 176 lbs Local Grapes 10-24
White Zin 6 gal Harford Juice 10-28 

Bring on the 2018 South American harvest.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Doing my first all grape batch. What is the trick to getting enough of a sample to test the gravity. I put a strainer over a measuring cup drained the free run, but had to repeat several times.



After punching down, I partially submerge a fine mesh strainer into the must, then scoop out a sample from inside the strainer with a measuring cup.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Well after the Cali and my local order I will end my first year of making with 75 gallons of wine.
> Varietal Amt What? Start
> Malbec 6 gal Wine Expert Eclipse 10l kit 1-02
> Trio Red 6 gal RJS En Primeur 18l w skins 1-28
> Amarosso 6 gal Mosti Mondiale Megioli 23L w raisons 3-10
> Pino Noir 6 gal RJS En Primeur 18l w skins 3-14
> Syrah 8 gal Harford Juice & 1 lug 5-06
> Peach 5 gal Vintner's Best & 4lb fresh fruit 7-15
> White Zin 5 gal Harford Juice 10-08
> Barbera 6 gal Harford Juice 10-08
> Zin 9 gal Harford Juice & 1 lug 10-09
> Norton 12 gal? 176 lbs Local Grapes 10-24
> White Zin 6 gal Harford Juice 10-28
> 
> Bring on the 2018 South American harvest.





Way to jump in with both feet!


----------



## jgmann67

Just to put my own fears to rest, I tasted an ounce or so of the Merlot to make sure that the sour nose I was getting didn't mean that the wine was also sour. The short answer is: No. It tastes like very good, young wine. I'm hoping that the sour nose will go away after the MLF is done when I dose it with kmeta and rack it over to clean carboys.

10 days since the start of MLF and it seems to be going along swimmingly. All the wines are still showing tiny bubbles. I'm on a schedule to stir twice a week - once mid week and again over the weekend. The LHBS does not carry a test kit for MLF (the kid that works there over the weekend looked at me like my dog does when I talk to him... head cocked to one side).


----------



## mainshipfred

Received my Lalvin MBR 31 bacteria today and ready to MLF once I press my Norton. My question is would you do MLF on the White Zin?
Nothing to do with Cali grapes but I also ordered some grade 3 corks for when I bottle my first wines. don't know how much a difference they would make but they sure look more authentic then the agglomerated corks.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Received my Lalvin MBR 31 bacteria today and ready to MLF once I press my Norton. My question is would you do MLF on the White Zin?
> Nothing to do with Cali grapes but I also ordered some grade 3 corks for when I bottle my first wines. don't know how much a difference they would make but they sure look more authentic then the agglomerated corks.



I would not MLF a white zin. But that's just me.


----------



## mainshipfred

I was thinking the same but just wasn't sure.


----------



## jgmann67

The tiny bubbles have slowed.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> The tiny bubbles have slowed.


Still stirring a couple times a week?


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> Still stirring a couple times a week?



Yessir. Wednesday's and Saturday's.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Yessir. Wednesday's and Saturday's.


Yell when it's been long enough to do a test. Might be a good reason to come taste that blend!


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Yell when it's been long enough to do a test. Might be a good reason to come taste that blend!



This weekend will be three weeks. And, the MLF has been pretty active. Probably time to taste and test, I think.


----------



## ibglowin

And so the carboy tippin' begins.........


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> And so the carboy tippin' begins.........



Yep, and @ceeaton is planning a trip, and I suspect it's a lot easier when one tips the carboy while the other one slugs wine out of the top.......... They may just use the racking cane, or as Craig calls it, "the big curved straw"......


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> They may just use the racking cane, or as Craig calls it, "the big curved straw"......





Anyone else interested in coming by, spending some social time or bottle swapping...  Just let me know.


----------



## heatherd

My Cali whites are stabilized and bulk-aging. The reds are MLF-ing along (co-inoculated VP-41) and I'll check them this weekend.

A question: I picked up my lovely Washington Pinot Noir and they are fermenting now. I'm on the fence on whether to MLF. What do you guys think? I'm aiming for a fruity wine with no oak.


----------



## jgmann67

@heatherd I'm a YES on doing an MLF on your Pinot Noir. I haven't done a PN from grapes yet. @ceeaton did with his Chilean PN, IIRC. Others have, too. 

When I think of PN's, I think soft and round. Can you do a chromo to see how much Malic acid is present? If it's a big yellow blot on your paper, I'd say definitely do the MLF. 

Did you add tannin when you started AF?


----------



## Johnd

[QUOTE="heatherd, post: 667842, member: 30498"

A question: I picked up my lovely Washington Pinot Noir and they are fermenting now. I'm on the fence on whether to MLF. What do you guys think? I'm aiming for a fruity wine with no oak.[/QUOTE]

My vote is yes!


----------



## Boatboy24

heatherd said:


> My Cali whites are stabilized and bulk-aging. The reds are MLF-ing along (co-inoculated VP-41) and I'll check them this weekend.
> 
> A question: I picked up my lovely Washington Pinot Noir and they are fermenting now. I'm on the fence on whether to MLF. What do you guys think? I'm aiming for a fruity wine with no oak.




My CA Pinot is MLF'ing as we speak. Co-innoculated w/ VP41.


----------



## cmason1957

It is red, it is a grape wine. Mlf is standard practice. I would, unless you measure the amount of malic acid and find it to be under about 30 g/l and you probably won't find it that low.


----------



## mainshipfred

cmason1957 said:


> It is red, it is a grape wine. Mlf is standard practice. I would, unless you measure the amount of malic acid and find it to be under about 30 g/l and you probably won't find it that low.



How important is testing for malic? Is there a problem if the malic is too low? I was looking at the Vinmetrica SC 55. Cost is reasonable but only does 5 tests. The refills for 20 tests are $50.00 and it seems to require freezing and thawing the chemicals.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> How important is testing for malic? Is there a problem if the malic is too low? I was looking at the Vinmetrica SC 55. Cost is reasonable but only does 5 tests. The refills for 20 tests are $50.00 and it seems to require freezing and thawing the chemicals.



If you are doing grape wines, testing for the presence of malic acid in your must is probably not necessary, it's one of the main acids that are in grapes and should be there. As the sharper acid of the three (tartaric, malic and lactic), the removal of this acid in red wines is desirable, not so much in whites (other than chardonnays). I have the Vinmetrica, but typically test for malic acid in two other ways. The first is a test strip, which will actually tell you the amount of malic acid in your wine, indicated by color change. The second, is paper chromatography, which merely tells you if it is there or not, although, I believe that the brightness of the malic spot gives some indication that it is decreasing, especially when you can compare it to previous tests from the same batch.

In red wines, when you do MLF, you are attempting to convert all of the malic to lactic acid, so there is no "too low", unless you have some other plan for your wine which includes having malic acid present. I'm not a grape grower, so I don't know if there is some agricultural reason why a grape might have no malic acid in it, not in my wheelhouse at all..........hope this helps!!


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> How important is testing for malic? Is there a problem if the malic is too low? I was looking at the Vinmetrica SC 55. Cost is reasonable but only does 5 tests. The refills for 20 tests are $50.00 and it seems to require freezing and thawing the chemicals.



Similar to alcoholic fermentation, one of the byproducts of MLF is CO2. If MLF isn't finished, you run the risk of it happening/finishing in the bottle and popping corks, or producing bottle bombs. I haven't really looked into the Vinmetrica unit, but at around $50, the chromatography kit from MoreWine is cheap, and gives you enough to run dozens of tests. As far as refills, I don't bother using the standards anymore, so all I need to replace is the developer solution.


----------



## mainshipfred

Thanks all, didn't know there was malic test strips and I have the chromotography kit. @cmason1957 talked about the 30g/l and thought that might have some reference to something.


----------



## cmason1957

Anything below about 30 g/l is considered finished when converting Malic acid to Lactic Acid, sorry, I should have been clearer. Chromotography shows almost nothing once you getbelow about 50 g/l.


----------



## mainshipfred

cmason1957 said:


> Anything below about 30 g/l is considered finished when converting Malic acid to Lactic Acid, sorry, I should have been clearer. Chromotography shows almost nothing once you getbelow about 50 g/l.



Good to knowl, thanks.


----------



## Johnd

cmason1957 said:


> Anything below about 30 g/l is considered finished when converting Malic acid to Lactic Acid, sorry, I should have been clearer. Chromotography shows almost nothing once you getbelow about 50 g/l.



And that's why we say "When your chromatography test shows no more malic acid, wait two more weeks before you sulfite and move on". It gives the little buggers time to finish up what they can before you rock their world with sulfite additions............


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> Anything below about 30 g/l is considered finished when converting Malic acid to Lactic Acid, sorry, I should have been clearer. Chromotography shows almost nothing once you getbelow about 50 g/l.



Going by the one time I checked a fully clear chroma test against the strips I noticed that even more drastic. Clear chroma but definitely 100+ g/L strip on one. Basically that test taught me always wait. Which goes with what @Johnd once told me, "procrastinators, this is your hobby"


----------



## ceeaton

heatherd said:


> My Cali whites are stabilized and bulk-aging. The reds are MLF-ing along (co-inoculated VP-41) and I'll check them this weekend.
> 
> A question: I picked up my lovely Washington Pinot Noir and they are fermenting now. I'm on the fence on whether to MLF. What do you guys think? I'm aiming for a fruity wine with no oak.


I assume lovely meant that the grapes were in nice condition. Tell me more!

I MLF'ed my Pinot Noir from Spring 2016 (used CH35), it is still fruity and I only added one French M+ Winestix, and it definitely didn't overwhelm the wine, yet.


----------



## heatherd

ceeaton said:


> I assume lovely meant that the grapes were in nice condition. Tell me more!
> 
> I MLF'ed my Pinot Noir from Spring 2016 (used CH35), it is still fruity and I only added one French M+ Winestix, and it definitely didn't overwhelm the wine, yet.



@ceeaton the grapes were really nice quality when I picked them up at Harford, and they had crushed them for me. This is the first time Harford has had Washington State grapes to sell, and I told Brent (Theresa and Kevin's son) that I hope they get them next year as well.

Thanks for the feedback on MLF. I'll get some bacteria and get that started.


----------



## heatherd

jgmann67 said:


> @heatherd I'm a YES on doing an MLF on your Pinot Noir. I haven't done a PN from grapes yet. @ceeaton did with his Chilean PN, IIRC. Others have, too.
> 
> When I think of PN's, I think soft and round. Can you do a chromo to see how much Malic acid is present? If it's a big yellow blot on your paper, I'd say definitely do the MLF.
> 
> Did you add tannin when you started AF?



@jgmann67 I have not added anything to the pinot except yeast at this point. I agree and will do MLF. This is my all-grape batch for the year, so I'm going to wait and see on tannins and oak.


----------



## heatherd

Boatboy24 said:


> My CA Pinot is MLF'ing as we speak. Co-innoculated w/ VP41.



@Boatboy24 That's good advice, thanks.


----------



## heatherd

Johnd said:


> [QUOTE="heatherd, post: 667842, member: 30498"
> 
> A question: I picked up my lovely Washington Pinot Noir and they are fermenting now. I'm on the fence on whether to MLF. What do you guys think? I'm aiming for a fruity wine with no oak.



My vote is yes![/QUOTE]

@Johnd I concur!


----------



## mainshipfred

Started MLF-ing this morning. I hydrated both the Opti Malo Plus and the MBR 31. Finished around 9:30 and already seeing signs of activity. 
8 gal Zin 
8gal Syrah for the S American juice
6 gal Barbara
6 gal Norton
1 gal Amorosso - pulled out of a MM kit for an experiment
3 gal Norton that I used a White Labs on a couple of days ago. This is the third time using this and the first that is working.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> This weekend will be three weeks. And, the MLF has been pretty active. Probably time to taste and test, I think.


Test started, picture tomorrow afternoon...

Getting dark so early, Goodbye Blue Sky, Goodbye Blue Sky, Goodbye...Goodbye...


----------



## ceeaton

Had to deal with picking up my wife and daughter last night from the school, her car wouldn't start (it does now, it warmed up a bit) So need to find a replacement for that battery, not the wifey...but I did actually do the test. Looking like the PV is further ahead of everything else. I'd just continue to stir all four, no Kmeta yet...


----------



## jgmann67

That’s kinda surprising and disappointing... thought it would be further along. Ahh well. Guess we go another 2-3 weeks and try again.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> That’s kinda surprising and disappointing... thought it would be further along. Ahh well. Guess we go another 2-3 weeks and try again.


Though the PV looks like it has stuff at the Malic area, most of it is the dark red stuff that got carried up by the lactic component, I'd call that one done, think you can Kmeta that one around Thanksgiving.

I had problems getting good contrast with the image. Having it right here beside me, the Merlot looks better than the Cab, I'd stir and we'll test again at the end of the month.


----------



## jgmann67

Interesting... when I give the wines a stir, the tiny bubbles stop (or at least are not visible). After a day or two, they're back. I stirred over the weekend and the cabs are showing the greatest activity, followed by the Merlot. The activity in the PV is nominal. This, to me, is consistent with the chromo.

Tom Petty was right...


----------



## cmason1957

Tom Petty is always right. I think leaving the country for a week or two is a great aide to good winemaking. You can't get about nothing during that time.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Interesting... when I give the wines a stir, the tiny bubbles stop (or at least are not visible). After a day or two, they're back. I stirred over the weekend and the cabs are showing the greatest activity, followed by the Merlot. The activity in the PV is nominal. This, to me, is consistent with the chromo.
> 
> Tom Petty was right...


I assume you are thinking of a song with "waiting" in the title....

FYI, finally got to talk to my oldest Son tonight for about two minutes (you were referring to patience, I think). He's scheduled to graduate from basic training next week. My wife is making the trip alone since it's over the holiday weekend and was cost prohibitive. He's supposed to get two weeks leave closer to the holidays, but either way, it was nice hearing his voice, he sounds good and like he's having a lot of "fun". Most important to me is he sounds like he has the right attitude to make the most of his time in the Air Force. I am very proud of him. I can tell he's grown up quite a bit over the last 6 or so weeks...


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Interesting... when I give the wines a stir, the tiny bubbles stop (or at least are not visible). After a day or two, they're back. I stirred over the weekend and the cabs are showing the greatest activity, followed by the Merlot. The activity in the PV is nominal. This, to me, is consistent with the chromo.
> 
> Tom Petty was right...



Here's song I thought of


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Here's song I thought of




That's the MLF fight song!


----------



## jgmann67

It's the day after the festival of turkey and the gatherers in my tribe are out seeking bargains. The PV hasn't made so much as a bubble in 10 days. So, I racked and dosed it. Then, rinsed the oak and added it back to the clean wine. 

The Merlot activity is pretty nominal. Maybe another week before I fuss with it, too. 

The two cabs are showing activity, just they're just a bit slower than last week. I might have to leave them go for a couple more weeks before testing, dosing and racking.


----------



## ceeaton

Let me know when you want to test the other two again. This weekend I'd have problems getting the samples since I'm the lone parent and my responsible 17 yr old daughter is working both days. Maybe next weekend?


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Let me know when you want to test the other two again. This weekend I'd have problems getting the samples since I'm the lone parent and my responsible 17 yr old daughter is working both days. Maybe next weekend?



Next weekend is good for me.


----------



## mainshipfred

I guess MLF proceeds at it's own pace. It appeared they all shown signs of starting when I innoculated. The Norton finished in 2 weeks @cmason1957 I'm going to let it go another 2 weeks as you recommended. The Zin is just now showing decent activity, the Syrah seems to be trying but the Barbara doesn't seem to want to do anything. All sulfite levels are below 20 and the ph is 3.3-3.5. I added twice the amount of Opti Malo and 1.5 times the bacteria. The chromotography indicates the same activity.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I guess MLF proceeds at it's own pace. It appeared they all shown signs of starting when I innoculated. The Norton finished in 2 weeks @cmason1957 I'm going to let it go another 2 weeks as you recommended. The Zin is just now showing decent activity, the Syrah seems to be trying but the Barbara doesn't seem to want to do anything. All sulfite levels are below 20 and the ph is 3.3-3.5. I added twice the amount of Opti Malo and 1.5 times the bacteria. The chromotography indicates the same activity.



You know the routine, Fred... stir, keep your temps in range and look for activity. If it doesn’t kick off with what you have in the carboy after a reasonable amount of time, you need to think of next steps.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I guess MLF proceeds at it's own pace. It appeared they all shown signs of starting when I innoculated. The Norton finished in 2 weeks @cmason1957 I'm going to let it go another 2 weeks as you recommended. The Zin is just now showing decent activity, the Syrah seems to be trying but the Barbara doesn't seem to want to do anything. All sulfite levels are below 20 and the ph is 3.3-3.5. I added twice the amount of Opti Malo and 1.5 times the bacteria. The chromotography indicates the same activity.



Inoculated after pressing and only 17 days ago correct? I’d be half tempted to leave em all be (even the Norton) and not test again till after the new year. 
So In the words of the great Axl Rose, “what’s so civil about war anyway?” ....wait no. “All we need is just a little patience”. That’s the one!


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Inoculated after pressing and only 17 days ago correct? I’d be half tempted to leave em all be (even the Norton) and not test again till after the new year.
> So In the words of the great Axl Rose, “what’s so civil about war anyway?” ....wait no. “All we need is just a little patience”. That’s the one!



The last batch was the Norton. I waited until I pressed it to innoculate everything at once. The Syrah was from the spring. I used the White Labs bacteria for it and it never worked so I sulfited. It took until now for the sulfite levels to get down to the mid 20's. The Zin is a bucket and one lug, the Barbera is just juiceif that helps. I'm in no hurry and will just keep monitoring and stirring.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> The last batch was the Norton. I waited until I pressed it to innoculate everything at once. The Syrah was from the spring. I used the White Labs bacteria for it and it never worked so I sulfited. It took until now for the sulfite levels to get down to the mid 20's. The Zin is a bucket and one lug, the Barbera is just juiceif that helps. I'm in no hurry and will just keep monitoring and stirring.



Just making clear you werent co-inoculating, which finish quicker. And probably explains why the Norton went so quick in comparison. 
I know it’s been discussed a lot recently, but just another friendly heads up on the chroma tests. I had some strips and did direct comparisons. The chroma showed 100% completion on 2 wines while the strips showed <30g/mL and >100g/mL on the other. Cmason1957 always lends good MLF advice to wait it out.


----------



## mainshipfred

Did not co-innoculate and I know about the test strips. I have to get some and I have no problem waiting it out. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## cmason1957

And waiting is my advice again. Even to myself. I measured with the strips last weekend at almost nothing. Decided to leave it alone until the New Year, but not opening and stirring anymore.


----------



## jgmann67

Checking in on my three grape extravaganza - 

PV is beautiful. Dark, lots of flavor and nose (the sour nose has faded - think it should be called "that new wine smell"). Sitting on blended medium + oak cubes for three months and will get another racking. 

The Merlot MLF appears to be done. I get singular bubbles at an infrequent pace. Testing will show where it is. But, I think it's due for a racking anytime. 

The twin Cabs are still going, though they have slowed considerably. 

Life has been crazy at home and especially at work. Winemaking is really the perfect hobby for people like me. Every now and again, I can go putter around my wine room for a little sanity check. Then, go back upstairs and get back into the race. 

I wish I had a video of the night I came home to check the wines and they exploded all over the place. Not funny while it was happening. But, I was laughing at myself during the clean up. Lesson learned. 

That reminds me, I have a wine-stained ceiling tile that needs to be replaced.


----------



## ceeaton

View attachment 45133


jgmann67 said:


> That’s kinda surprising and disappointing... thought it would be further along. Ahh well. Guess we go another 2-3 weeks and try again.


Okay, here's round two. I think still a little disappointing. The Merlot is a little better than the Cab, but it looks that way in the previous test (November 12th?).


----------



## cmason1957

That doesn't look very different from the last one you posted. Are you seeing any evidence that MLF has even started, like little bubbles around the neck of the carboy? I have heard some folks say Merlot can just be hard to get started for no particular reason.


----------



## ceeaton

cmason1957 said:


> That doesn't look very different from the last one you posted. Are you seeing any evidence that MLF has even started, like little bubbles around the neck of the carboy? I have heard some folks say Merlot can just be hard to get started for no particular reason.


I will defer to @jgmann67 since it is his wine. I'm just the tester (and usually a taster when I visit him for samples)!


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> That doesn't look very different from the last one you posted. Are you seeing any evidence that MLF has even started, like little bubbles around the neck of the carboy? I have heard some folks say Merlot can just be hard to get started for no particular reason.



As far as this thread goes he said they did show activity. Remember the “Tiny bubbles” song and Tom petty convo?!
I did a Side by side just because. Looks identical to me. Unfortunately. Maybe another month to text and reassess? It would seem that Tom petty is again right. 
Or possibly the tester for higher is at fault. That ugly football game last night may have put him on tilt 
View attachment 45135


----------



## jgmann67

Both were showing activity. Now the Merlot is not showing any real activity, while the two cabs seem to be chugging along. 

I hate the idea of dosing these again. If anyone’s got another idea, I’m all ears.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Both were showing activity. Now the Merlot is not showing any real activity, while the two cabs seem to be chugging along.
> 
> I hate the idea of dosing these again. If anyone’s got another idea, I’m all ears.



Id think to wait for a 2nd test to confirm what is suspected in a month. Since there is activity seen. Until then I would just continue as you’ve been making sure temps around 75°. And maybe hang that “Best of Show” medal right in front of em. Give em some inspiration!
(Congrats on that btw)


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Id think to wait for a 2nd test to confirm what is suspected in a month. Since there is activity seen. Until then I would just continue as you’ve been making sure temps around 75°. And maybe hang that “Best of Show” medal right in front of em. Give em some inspiration!
> (Congrats on that btw)



It'll be the third test. But, I'll need to see if Mrs Mann is okay with me bringing them upstairs.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> It'll be the third test. But, I'll need to see if Mrs Mann is okay with me bringing them upstairs.



I don’t think I could ever make any decision based on just that—one test to test timeframe without progress. Would want to confirm it with a 2nd test to test interval. With another 1/2 dose of opti malo. 
No clue if 70° to75° makes any difference. Room temp has worked for me so far. I just know to make sure it’s not too cold. 
I THINK the lees itself isn’t beneficial. Only stirring to bring up any potential buried malo or nutrients. I also read oak cubes or spirals help the bacteria. To have something to latch onto and not become buried. —- please note I’m still pretty new to this myself, learning as I go.


----------



## jgmann67

All fair. I don’t think I have any opti-Malo in stock rock now. The wine is on oak, too. So, I got that going for me. Maybe a find a way to feed the wine and give it another few weeks before testing again.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> All fair. I don’t think I have any opti-Malo in stock rock now. The wine is on oak, too. So, I got that going for me. Maybe a find a way to feed the wine and give it another few weeks before testing again.


I thought you had a "brew belt" at one point? I'd wrap that baby around your carboy and run it for a few hours in the evening, and maybe stir a time or two more a week. We'll test again in early January. I'll be down that way on the 1st when I have to take my Son back to BWI for his flight back to the metropolis of Wichita Falls, assuming you aren't in California, or Vegas, or the Bahamas, or Bermuda, or Italy somewhere else fun.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I thought you had a "brew belt" at one point? I'd wrap that baby around your carboy and run it for a few hours in the evening, and maybe stir a time or two more a week. We'll test again in early January. I'll be down that way on the 1st when I have to take my Son back to BWI for his flight back to the metropolis of Wichita Falls, assuming you aren't in California, or Vegas, or the Bahamas, or Bermuda, or Italy somewhere else fun.



The brew belt was a loss a year ago, unfortunately. And, I think I’ll be at my winter retreat... in Etters, PA.


----------



## JohnT

I have to say that there are a number of things that can seem like MLF activity. Heck, it couls always be the wine degassing on it's own. By the results of the test, it does not seem that MLF is happening at all. 

Not sure if you posted this already, but what is the current temp, SO2 level, ABV, and PH? Have you checked if any of these exceed the limit of the MLB??


----------



## ceeaton

JohnT said:


> I have to say that there are a number of things that can seem like MLF activity. Heck, it couls always be the wine degassing on it's own. By the results of the test, it does not seem that MLF is happening at all.
> 
> Not sure if you posted this already, but what is the current temp, SO2 level, ABV, and PH? Have you checked if any of these exceed the limit of the MLB??


Yea, I think I've sort of figured out a common denominator with Harford Grapes, they come wrapped in SO2 pads and I wonder if we aren't having issues with a higher level of SO2 than we think. I don't have a way to test it accurately yet, but in the future when I do, I'll make sure that I test for it. I haven't had any issues but I don't add any SO2 to grapes before MLF that I get from Harford. I know others who get their grapes from there (Jim and Jim in particular) have had issues with past batches.


----------



## jgmann67

When I was having difficulty with the PS from last year (dosed twice with White Labs MLB), Craig was good enough to bring over some wine sludge from his to drop into the carboy and it finished without issue. 

The wine temps are around 68* and the pH is just fine. I don't have a way to test SO2 levels. But the wines went through AF with no issue and finished around 14.4% ABV. I think the BM4x4 may have something to do with it. 

I used VP41 this time. 

If someone has some MLB sludge, I'll take it! Otherwise, I'm going to try to get the wines warmer and add some nutrient. Suggestions are always appreciated.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> When I was having difficulty with the PS from last year (dosed twice with White Labs MLB), Craig was good enough to bring over some wine sludge from his to drop into the carboy and it finished without issue.
> 
> The wine temps are around 68* and the pH is just fine. I don't have a way to test SO2 levels. But the wines went through AF with no issue and finished around 14.4% ABV. I think the BM4x4 may have something to do with it.
> 
> I used VP41 this time.
> 
> If someone has some MLB sludge, I'll take it! Otherwise, I'm going to try to get the wines warmer and add some nutrient. Suggestions are always appreciated.


My sludge is your sludge, but my sludge has been racked off of and Kmeta'd a few times.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> My sludge is your sludge, but my sludge has been racked off of and Kmeta'd a few times.



That's probably not going to work. Thanks tho.


----------



## Ajmassa

I know the so2 titrets don’t have a great rep. But without expensive equipment, those titrets are good enough. 
Accuracy ranges some, but still gives you a good idea of the so2. Better than just guessing. I use em when needed.


----------



## Ajmassa

Just another curveball from the wine gods. 
I guess I started mlf’ing at a great time. With a few guinea pig MLF co-inoculations already done successfully to pave the way. Malo added in a low alcohol environment seems to work very well, but not ideal $$ if you’re starting batches weeks apart. 
We need to petition to get those workhorse MLBs offered in smaller packages.- yeah that should be easy. 
(Or cut a deal with Hartford for multiple-order flat crush-fees and rented freezer space)


----------



## jgmann67

I'm thinking about hitting it with som CH16. Thoughts?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Just another curveball from the wine gods.
> I guess I started mlf’ing at a great time. With a few guinea pig MLF co-inoculations already done successfully to pave the way. Malo added in a low alcohol environment seems to work very well, but not ideal $$ if you’re starting batches weeks apart.
> We need to petition to get those workhorse MLBs offered in smaller packages.- yeah that should be easy.
> (Or cut a deal with Hartford for multiple-order flat crush-fees and rented freezer space)



I never had luck with White Labs but they do recommend it being introduced at 5 brix. Might be something to the low alcohol thing. I said this before but my experience with commercial wineries is they buy the MLB in large quantities and within reason just seal the package, refrigerate and use it when the next batch is ready. Not saying they us it the nest year but weeks doesn't seem to be a problem.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I never had luck with White Labs but they do recommend it being introduced at 5 brix. Might be something to the low alcohol thing. I said this before but my experience with commercial wineries is they buy the MLB in large quantities and within reason just seal the package, refrigerate and use it when the next batch is ready. Not saying they us it the nest year but weeks doesn't seem to be a problem.



That’s a great point there. Pretty cool to help out at that winery getting a different perspective on things. Makes me think the “not able to be re-used once packet is opened” is likely them just covering their ass. Mental not for future batches if needed. 
In May I ran into this issue and I pitched all malo to the same batch. Then just added those skins to the next one right after pressing. No new yeast or malo needed. The 2nd AF & MLF took off like gangbusters! And finished quick too. 
But I knew it was a factor for at least some of you Harford guys and I thought was reason for inoculating all the batches simultaneously.


----------



## jgmann67

I've been working late for the last week (really the last couple months) and haven't had time to do more than look at my wines. I'll decide this weekend whether to hit it again with a different MLB. Would love to hear from those that have had this issue previously.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> I've been working late for the last week (really the last couple months) and haven't had time to do more than look at my wines. I'll decide this weekend whether to hit it again with a different MLB. Would love to hear from those that have had this issue previously.



I've been there on a few, all were made from grapes that had been shipped with SO2 pads prior to crushing / destemming. Repeated applications of MLB, pH increases, perfect temps, didn't ever do the trick. If you scour through the MoreWinemaking manuals in the MLF section, you'll find a little blurb in there that mentions that bound SO2 can inhibit MLF. My thoughts at the time were that (despite the fact I had never added SO2 to the must) the bound SO2 levels were high enough to inhibit my MLB, and I gave up. Today, the wines have been through barrels, bulk aged, and bottled, and are quite nice..........


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> I've been there on a few, all were made from grapes that had been shipped with SO2 pads prior to crushing / destemming. Repeated applications of MLB, pH increases, perfect temps, didn't ever do the trick. If you scour through the MoreWinemaking manuals in the MLF section, you'll find a little blurb in there that mentions that bound SO2 can inhibit MLF. My thoughts at the time were that (despite the fact I had never added SO2 to the must) the bound SO2 levels were high enough to inhibit my MLB, and I gave up. Today, the wines have been through barrels, bulk aged, and bottled, and are quite nice..........



This is only my second attempt at wine from fresh grapes. So, before I throw in the towel on kick starting an MLF, is there really than much of a quantifiable difference if don't get the MLF done?


----------



## JohnT

jgmann67 said:


> This is only my second attempt at wine from fresh grapes. So, before I throw in the towel on kick starting an MLF, is there really than much of a quantifiable difference if don't get the MLF done?



IMHO, yes. 

I am not saying that you wine will not be drinkable without MLF. What I am saying is that MLF can make a great wine even better! MLF adds a soft and buttery quality to wine. IMHO, MLF is well worth it.


----------



## Johnd

I agree with @JohnT , it is worth the effort. But Jim, if it just won't go, do not despair, as I stated a couple posts back, your wine is certainly not lost, just not quite as good as it may have been. It's one of the reasons I switched to co-inoculation, the environment is much more friendly prior to alcohol production, and success for me is 100% since switching.


----------



## Boatboy24

Jim,

One of my regrets with my 2016 Chileans was continuing attempts to get MLF going over the course of many months. The lack of free SO2 in the wine is one thing that I think contributed to them going south on me. Pretty convinced at this point that my issue was VA that took off in the absence of free SO2. In the future, I plan to co-inoculate and not wait so long. If the wine is tasting OK now, its only going to get better with time. Yes, MLF will definitely improve it and soften it, but so will age.

Were it my wine, I'd probably give another bacteria a chance. But take a chromo before you start. If you don't see a change in 2-3 weeks, throw in the towel and get some sulfite on that wine.


----------



## JohnT

Age will soften the wine, but not in the same way. 

There is no mistaking a wine that has had a complete MLF.


----------



## jgmann67

Alrighty then. I appreciate all of the advice.

Over the holidays, I'm going to pitch a CH16 (a bit heartier than the VP41, I believe) and some opti-malo to the three carboys of wine. I'll wait 3 weeks and test again. If it goes nowhere, I'm going to rack and dose with kmeta, then tuck it in for a long winter's nap.

Next year, I think I'm on the co-inoculation bandwagon, too.


----------



## mainshipfred

I have 2 that show very little signs of MLF and one that is chugging along slowly. I need to do a chromo test this weekend. I've bee trying to keep the free S02 between 15 and 20 ppm so I think I'm protected. I never considered the bound S02. @Johnd I think I can test for bound S02 with my 300. What levels do you think would start to inhibit the MLB. I can't seem to find anything.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I have 2 that show very little signs of MLF and one that is chugging along slowly. I need to do a chromo test this weekend. I've bee trying to keep the free S02 between 15 and 20 ppm so I think I'm protected. I never considered the bound S02. @Johnd I think I can test for bound S02 with my 300. What levels do you think would start to inhibit the MLB. I can't seem to find anything.



I believe that when suppliers refer to an MLB's SO2 tolerance, they are referring to the total.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I believe that when suppliers refer to an MLB's SO2 tolerance, they are referring to the total.


You’re correct. If you’re doing MLF on your wines, this is a must read:

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/mlf09.pdf


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> You’re correct. If you’re doing MLF on your wines, this is a must read:
> 
> http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/mlf09.pdf



Great article, so much to learn. Here is a chart of different bacteria and their properties. I used MBR 31.

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/technical-documents/878/ChoosingTheRightMLBacteria.pdf


----------



## Ajmassa

Don’t fear the lack of so2! 
Now at 4 successful mlf’s, all of em coinnoculated vp-41. And held off all so2 additions on all of em until MLF completed. Even skipped so2 at crush since I was coinoculating. 
I think learning by poor family old school winemaking practices taught me not to ever get hung up on so2-since it was never added by them. —as long as topped up seems to be plenty protection for course of mlf.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Don’t fear the lack of so2!
> Now at 4 successful mlf’s, all of em coinnoculated vp-41. And held off all so2 additions on all of em until MLF completed. Even skipped so2 at crush since I was coinoculating.
> I think learning by poor family old school winemaking practices taught me not to ever get hung up on so2-since it was never added by them. —as long as topped up seems to be plenty protection for course of mlf.



While it’s true that topping and sanitation are big helpers, time will eventually catch up to you. The Chileans that Jim struggled with were the same ones I struggled with. 4 months after AF, and no SO2, I finally chickened out and sulfited the wine. IIRC, Jim may have persisted longer with his. In the end, it led me to the co inoculation research, first attempt, and that’s what I’ve done since.


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> While it’s true that topping and sanitation are big helpers, time will eventually catch up to you. The Chileans that Jim struggled with were the same ones I struggled with. 4 months after AF, and no SO2, I finally chickened out and sulfited the wine. IIRC, Jim may have persisted longer with his. In the end, it led me to the co inoculation research, first attempt, and that’s what I’ve done since.



Totally agree. I should have added *within reason* to my reply. Because skipping so2 altogether combined with coinoculating kept my timeframes no more than a month without so2 protection. If the MLF started dragging out for multiple months would def bring me out of my comfort level. 
Having said that, I have already made the decision to NOT skip so2 at crush anymore. (I’m still on the “coinoculation train” and no plans of getting off.) MLF went great but I experienced issues with fermentation finishing because of natural yeast issues. Finding that so2 “sweet spot” to max benefit AF as well as MLF is an art, and I’m still figuring it out. Thinking just minimal 10-15 ppm at crush for fall. But for spring grapes that arrive with So2 pads I will still skip. I tested those levels before AF and there was already more than enough in there. I’d have to check my notes, but I believe it was already around 20-30 ppm after crush.


----------



## mainshipfred

I know this came up before and think I remember it being a no no but would washing the grapes remove the S02 from the pads or is it already sunk into the skins?


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I know this came up before and think I remember it being a no no but would washing the grapes remove the S02 from the pads or is it already sunk into the skins?



Right? I mean, It’s just pads over the lugs. But Regardless of the benefits, washing grapes was said to water down the grapes. Messing with the Brix, and the acid levels. According to those threads at least. Plus I think those so2 pads worked to my benefit.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Right? I mean, It’s just pads over the lugs. But Regardless of the benefits, washing grapes was said to water down the grapes. Messing with the Brix, and the acid levels. According to those threads at least. Plus I think those so2 pads worked to my benefit.



The only reason I asked is my local grapes batch had no S02 added and MLF started almost immediately post fermentation.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> The only reason I asked is my local grapes batch had no S02 added and MLF started almost immediately post fermentation.



FWIW the so2 pad didnt even seem to be a speed bump at all for the MLF. I just checked my notes. 
The Chilean cab lugs purchased with so2 pads. Free so2 checked after crush was 30-35 free ppm.(using titrets) 
I inoculated Vp-41 after after lag phase of yeast inoculation. Took a chroma test at day 10- and showed already almost finished. (So2 was 25-30 free ppm at this point). 2nd chroma test at 3.5 weeks showed definite completion.


----------



## jgmann67

Received my MLB and nutrient from MoreWine! today. Going to "give 'em the beans" tonight and hopefully see some MLF action starting tomorrow or the next.


----------



## mainshipfred

I used MBR 31 which has a lower tolerance for alcohol and S02. Used it because the winery told me it has a higher Diacetyl influence. Still, after learning a little the past few days about MLF I think (within reason) I need to keep the sulfite level on the low side. The total S02 ceiling for the MBR 31 is 40 ppm.
I believe the ceiling for the VP 41 that most use is 60 ppm.


----------



## jgmann67

Dosed last night and moved the wine to a room that's 70* F. Got a bit of foaming due to the nutrient, I think. Didn't lose anything really. And now... we wait.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I just checked my notes.
> The Chilean cab lugs purchased with so2 pads. Free so2 checked after crush was 30-35 free ppm.(using titrets)



Free SO2 @ 30-35ppm? Did you add any on your own or was that the way they arrived? That doesn't account for bound SO2, so your total could have been in excess of 50ppm.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Free SO2 @ 30-35ppm? Did you add any on your own or was that the way they arrived? That doesn't account for bound SO2, so your total could have been in excess of 50ppm.



Yep. I added none of my own. And yes, the tests were for free so2 - not total. Although I do take those #’s with a grain of salt too. 30ppm could easily be +or- 10ppm. Using the glass titrets. Even tho not the most accurate, they at least give me a general idea. 
I forgot to test my fall grape’s so2 at crush for a comparison. But when I tested before stabilizing after MLF I got 25 free ppm. Used fermcalc to calculate addition to get to 70 free ppm (3.9ph) Using titret to check level after addition showed 70 free ppm- right on the money. —— in other words, the titrets were at least consistent and have been accurate enough for my needs so far. And the spring’s so2 pads showed plenty of protection to warrant no additions at crush.


----------



## Ajmassa

——-I realize >50 total ppm seems high. But that’s what i got. I did a 2nd test to confirm (always do). My thoughts are that with VP41 (which states the tolerance at 50-60 total so2) combined with a very early coinoculation at 24 hr w/ acti-ml/opti malo feeding PLUS properly feeding yeast’s nutrients preventing them from competing for nutes off each other- was essentially the most ideal conditions possible for MLF to take off quick and finish quick in spite of the higher so2 via shipping pads. 
RC212 Yeast was used. MLF seemed much smoother than when MLF’d with BM4x4. (Tho could be 100 other variables). And actually those skins were used on a juice pail righter after pressing. So, a simultaneous yeast and malo inoculation. AF at sg .997 at day 4. Chroma test at day 6 was arguably already finished. Juice pail so2 measured ~35 FREE ppm initially. (Remember that grain of salt for those titrets tho!)


----------



## jgmann67

I moved the 3 carboys into another room where the ambient temps are about 5* higher than in the wine room. That should help a little. 

Tiny bubbles have returned. Let’s hope it means something is actually happening now.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I moved the 3 carboys into another room where the ambient temps are about 5* higher than in the wine room. That should help a little.
> 
> Tiny bubbles have returned. Let’s hope it means something is actually happening now.


Maybe we can aim for a test the second week of January, that should give it some time to show some malic reduction so you can make a decision on whether to "throw in the towel" and add some K-meta.

I really do think the SO2 being introduced from the environment the grapes are "held" in before being put on the ship and during shipment with the "pads" is our major issue with MLF. Maybe next Spring someone can test the total SO2 on the grapes we receive so we can be a little bit more knowledgeable in trying to pin down issues with MLF and Chilean grown grapes. It would be nice to know if that is a major factor in all of this or not, but until we test we are just throwing out our best guess, and at best it is a guess.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Maybe we can aim for a test the second week of January, that should give it some time to show some malic reduction so you can make a decision on whether to "throw in the towel" and add some K-meta.
> 
> I really do think the SO2 being introduced from the environment the grapes are "held" in before being put on the ship and during shipment with the "pads" is our major issue with MLF. Maybe next Spring someone can test the total SO2 on the grapes we receive so we can be a little bit more knowledgeable in trying to pin down issues with MLF and Chilean grown grapes. It would be nice to know if that is a major factor in all of this or not, but until we test we are just throwing out our best guess, and at best it is a guess.



Agreed. Mid January is good. 

Next season, I'm doing a coinoculation to see if that works better.


----------



## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> I really do think the SO2 being introduced from the environment the grapes are "held" in before being put on the ship and during shipment with the "pads" is our major issue with MLF.



I’m 100% in agreement. After 4 months, 3 packets of VP41, nutrients, perfect temps and pH, there’s nothing else it could be. I had my Chileans c/d”d before freezing / shipping to me and specifically ordered that no sulfite be added, and assume they did it right, it’s the only variable. 

When I inquired at M&M / Lanza / Musto, I was told that the grape lugs are shipped in sulfite gas filled bags, with sulfite soaked pads, in a refrigerated, sulfite gas filled shipping container. They’re well protected to get here in good shape, but some sulfite is certainly absorbed in the process.


----------



## mainshipfred

But Regardless of the benefits, washing grapes was said to water down the grapes. Messing with the Brix, and the acid levels. * According to those threads at least. * 

I don't think I have ever learned so much in a single year on a single topic that I have learned about making wine this past year and 90+% came from this forum. With all due respect to everyone's comments, which I take to heart, there are a few things I have to question even though some appear to be the opinion of the vast majority.

1. The idea that washing grapes interfers with the brix and acid levels is kind of hard to accept. I've read that not only the time of year but also the time of day which grapes are harvested will have an affect on the quality of the juice. It could be time after a rain, morning dew, temperature or something else, I just don't know. But my thoughts on this are, a quick shower of the grapes and maybe time allowed to dry would not greatly affect the brix or acid levels. It might not do anything to the sulfites if they are absorbed into the skins but could potentially remove any chemicals or pesticides the vineyard may have used.

2. Should or could kits go through MLF? Kit juice is prepared to have a long shelf life. Since it's kept such a secrets there is no telling what the manufacturers do to preserve the juice. Could be high sulfite levels, sorbates, or some other pasteurization method, any of which could prevent MLF. With that being said the thought MLF'ing kits causing an out of balance flabby wine, maybe so, but we tweek our wines all the time, adding or removing acid, sweeting or back sweeting, tannin additions, ect. Why couldn't, if it were possible, a kit go through MLF?

3. Probably a lot of this pertains to #2 but since the likelyhood of a kits ability to go through MLF, I'm not totally convinced a barrel can't be used for both.

AJ, your highlighted comment above is what prompted me to write this. I hope neither one of us gets in trouble.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> 2. Should or could kits go through MLF? Kit juice is prepared to have a long shelf life. Since it's kept such a secrets there is no telling what the manufacturers do to preserve the juice. Could be high sulfite levels, sorbates, or some other pasteurization method, any of which could prevent MLF. With that being said the thought MLF'ing kits causing an out of balance flabby wine, maybe so, but we tweek our wines all the time, adding or removing acid, sweeting or back sweeting, tannin additions, ect. Why couldn't, if it were possible, a kit go through MLF?


I have never done MLF on a kit because, since I'm family rich and monetarily challenged, and I don't want to dump $130 kit down the drain for the sake of an experiment. Though I would be interested in following a thread where someone documented their experience with MLF on a kit, all for science of course. Fred, I think you are the perfect winemaker to embark on such a journey, in the sake of science, of course!


----------



## cmason1957

Tim Vandergrift (if you don't know that name, Google him, he is the Godfather of kits) one said that kits are acid balanced with mostly malic acid and then have something added that would inhibit malolactic fermentation. If you could get Mlf to start you will end up with a very flabby low acid wine. If someone does decide to try to do this, use a very low end kit and only waste $50-75 not $135 or so.


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> I have never done MLF on a kit because, since I'm family rich and monetarily challenged, and I don't want to dump $130 kit down the drain for the sake of an experiment. Though I would be interested in following a thread where someone documented their experience with MLF on a kit, all for science of course. Fred, I think you are the perfect winemaker to embark on such a journey, in the sake of science, of course!



I did try with one gallon of a six gallon kit and nothing happened. As mentioned I would guess it's the preservation method used to add shelf life to the juice.


----------



## Ajmassa

High on malic is what I had read also. And you can’t go by TA since it is balanced with less tartaric, giving faulty numbers, as malic is not part of the TA #. 
And actually Johnd said he was sorta experimenting with this. He added skins to a kit that had malo bacteria in em. As well as an MLF barrel too I think for a bit. And letting the chips fall where they may. 
The so2 pads weren’t just pads I’ve just learned 4 hours ago! Did you see Johns’s post. Lugs with pads shipped in sulphite gas filled bags, in a refrigerated Sulfite gas filled shipping container. There a lot going on there. 
And when the pesticide thing came up before it was said that the alcohol formed in AF was enough to kill of anything unwanted.


----------



## mainshipfred

cmason1957 said:


> Tim Vandergrift (if you don't know that name, Google him, he is the Godfather of kits) one said that kits are acid balanced with mostly malic acid and then have something added that would inhibit malolactic fermentation. If you could get Mlf to start you will end up with a very flabby low acid wine. If someone does decide to try to do this, use a very low end kit and only waste $50-75 not $135 or so.



I totally agree but as I mentioned, and unless I'm missing something, acid could always be added back to the wine. That is if it were possible in the first place. Different subject but similar topic. $135.00+ for a kit is why I'll probably stick with fresh juice and grapes even though it's seasonal.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> High on malic is what I had read also. And you can’t go by TA since it is balanced with less tartaric, giving faulty numbers, as malic is not part of the TA #.
> And actually Johnd said he was sorta experimenting with this. He added skins to a kit that had malo bacteria in em. As well as an MLF barrel too I think for a bit. And letting the chips fall where they may.
> The so2 pads weren’t just pads I’ve just learned 4 hours ago! Did you see Johns’s post. Lugs with pads shipped in sulphite gas filled bags, in a refrigerated Sulfite gas filled shipping container. There a lot going on there.
> And when the pesticide thing came up before it was said that the alcohol formed in AF was enough to kill of anything unwanted.



@Ajmassa5983 *I stand corrected*. How's that for your ego and keeping up with @sour_grapes. @Johnd what were the results if you don't mind.


----------



## Ajmassa

Wahahaha. Actually Laughed out loud in line at CVS just now. I just like to bust his chops. 
I’m pretty sure Johnd’s chroma test still had bright malic spots.
Maybe it’s you, or the eggnog in the air, But the forum feels more like I’m shootin the breeze at a corner bar today.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Wahahaha. Actually Laughed out loud in line at CVS just now. I just like to bust his chops.
> I’m pretty sure Johnd’s chroma test still had bright malic spots.
> Maybe it’s you, or the eggnog in the air, But the forum feels more like I’m shootin the breeze at a corner bar today.



It's the Christmas spirit. Speaking of shooting the breeze, you coming to the meet up in February?


----------



## Ajmassa

Not likely. We make settlement on the new house Feb 1st. Renting our current place and lease is up 3/1. I have exactly 1 month to get it in enough shape to move in. - while still working 40+ hrs a week. 
BUT... it’s not off the table. My brother lives in Bethlehem- a great excuse to see him and the kids. Or I was also thinking as an opportunity to hit Blue Mountain with the fam to go skiing either day before or after. We often go skiing Presidents’ Day wknd anyway. 
But again, buying the house will likely take up every minute of my time for the foreseeable future.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa5983 said:


> High on malic is what I had read also. And you can’t go by TA since it is balanced with less tartaric, giving faulty numbers, as malic is not part of the TA #.



I am _slightly_ hesitant to correct you while you are having fun making fun of me for correcting you, but.... 

Malic certainly does show up in a TA test. "T" in TA stands for "titratable," not tartaric. Malic counts!

Another factor is that, if malic is added, and it is from synthetic sources, then the MLB bugs will only be able to eat 1/2 of the malic (because there are left- and right-handed versions of the acid in the lab, but only left-handed is produced in nature).


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> I am _slightly_ hesitant to correct you while you are having fun making fun of me for correcting you, but....
> 
> Malic certainly does show up in a TA test. "T" in TA stands for "titratable," not tartaric. Malic counts!
> 
> Another factor is that, if malic is added, and it is from synthetic sources, then the MLB bugs will only be able to eat 1/2 of the malic (because there are left- and right-handed versions of the acid in the lab, but only left-handed is produced in nature).



*rolling up sleeves*. Yes I realize TA is titritable (also ‘total’ by some). But the TA numbers as we know them won’t particularly matter. 
My assumption is that out of a grape wines TA #, malic makes up for a small percent, given how strong it is. But in a kit TA numbers read much lower than they would grape wines. They add slightly more malic taking away the need for a large amount of tartaric. 
So target numbers for kits are generally less than grape wines. But it would be difficult to go by numbers since we simply don’t know what the right balance would be for them. I suppose if you remove ALL malic, then maybe you could go by accepted grape wine TA’s. 
If only half is removed then your just guessing what TA would need to be, and better off to go by taste at that point.
**edit. Ahhhh. I see I wrote “malic is not part of TA”. I meant to say malic is not EQUAL part of TA”

Here we go. So...ahem... I stand corrected Mr Sourgrapes. You are right.


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> I am _slightly_ hesitant to correct you while you are having fun making fun of me for correcting you, but....
> 
> Malic certainly does show up in a TA test. "T" in TA stands for "titratable," not tartaric. Malic counts!
> 
> Another factor is that, if malic is added, and it is from synthetic sources, then the MLB bugs will only be able to eat 1/2 of the malic (because there are left- and right-handed versions of the acid in the lab, but only left-handed is produced in nature).



I saw no hesitation whatsoever. I must have been ever so slight since you jumped right in.

So in the case of kits possibly getting flabby I would think you would use tartaric rather then malic to bring the caid levels back up.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa5983 said:


> *
> **edit. Ahhhh. I see I wrote “malic is not part of TA”. I meant to say malic is not EQUAL part of TA”
> 
> Here we go. So...ahem... I stand corrected Mr Sourgrapes. You are right.



And I thought you were making an error that you weren't really making, sooo,.... (wait for it!)

I stand corrected!


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> And I thought you were making an error that you weren't really making, sooo,.... (wait for it!)
> 
> I stand corrected!



WOW AJ coming from the source your ego must have just skyrocketed.


----------



## stickman

If they add a small amount of fumaric acid to the juice or concentrate, ML can be inhibited for some period of time.


----------



## Ajmassa

Problem is that unless you’ve got inside information nobody really knows for sure. Plus the benefit for kitmakers is that the lab work is done for you. 
Probably better off buying frozen must if you wanna make wine off season but don’t want to shut off the chemist part of your winemaking brain. 


mainshipfred said:


> WOW AJ coming from the source your ego must have just skyrocketed.



Lol. It’s a stretch. Paul’s just being nice. And I thank him for that. 
Jokes aside, Paul’s contributions are polite, insightful and usually spark up good convo/ as intended. 
Just don’t watch jeopardy with him! We have on ABC news right into jeopardy most nights. And I am the master of my domain. Paul’s presence would lessen my perceived ‘genius’ status to my 10 yr old likely. Got an image to maintain.


----------



## jgmann67

Gave the “three wise men” a good stir this morning. It was active before the stir. But, it was crazy active after. Let’s hope this bodes well for the MLF.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Lol. It’s a stretch. Paul’s just being nice. And I thank him for that.
> Jokes aside, Paul’s contributions are polite, insightful and usually spark up good convo/ as intended.
> Just don’t watch jeopardy with him! We have on ABC news right into jeopardy most nights. And I am the master of my domain. Paul’s presence would lessen my perceived ‘genius’ status to my 10 yr old likely. Got an image to maintain.



I've been traveling, and have not had a chance to respond. That was very kind, AJ; I appreciate the sentiments. I admit I am probably a pain in the pitooty at times! But we are all on the same page here -- let's make and drink some wine!!


----------



## jgmann67

After this morning's stir, the wine isn't nearly as active. Hoping that means things are winding down for the MLF. The wine is a constant 72*, and smells fine.


----------



## jgmann67

I racked the three wise men and dosed with Kmeta this morning. Glad I did. 

I left the third carboy with the lees and oak after racking and had to run errands (and get more oxy-green to clean up). When I came back, the refuse in the dirty carboy had the same sour smell, but much more pronounced. 

I should test to see if I can pin down exactly what it is. The four wines are resting, with less of a sour nose. I'll taste tomorrow sometime, but the taste last week was fine.

I racked and dosed the PV a month ago and the sour nose is nearly gone. 

Any thoughts or suggestions are, as always, appreciated.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I racked the three wise men and dosed with Kmeta this morning. Glad I did.
> 
> I left the third carboy with the lees and oak after racking and had to run errands (and get more oxy-green to clean up). When I came back, the refuse in the dirty carboy had the same sour smell, but much more pronounced.
> 
> I should test to see if I can pin down exactly what it is. The four wines are resting, with less of a sour nose. I'll taste tomorrow sometime, but the taste last week was fine.
> 
> I racked and dosed the PV a month ago and the sour nose is nearly gone.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions are, as always, appreciated.



I'm thinking it is high time we test to see if your MLF has completed. Are you around on Sunday (I'm making beer and drinking beer and drinking more beer on Saturday)?

I'll bring a Brunello 375ml if you remind me. I got it out and put it somewhere it will annoy me so I remember it if I come over Sunday.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I'm thinking it is high time we test to see if your MLF has completed. Are you around on Sunday (I'm making beer and drinking beer and drinking more beer on Saturday)?
> 
> I'll bring a Brunello 375ml if you remind me. I got it out and put it somewhere it will annoy me so I remember it if I come over Sunday.



Yes I am. Sounds good.


----------



## jgmann67

The test came back "disappointing." No change. Two hits with an MLB. The lesson - coinoculate and use a more-compatible yeast. 

Just to be extra hygienic, I racked and dosed the three amigos again. Hoping the sour nose fades to zero.


----------



## jgmann67

I’ve been chatting with the PSU enology extension educator (she works with PA wineries). She’s suggesting that I try again with the three wise men. Using MLB for difficult wines, yeast hulls and ML nutrient. 

I’m game for it, but only if there’s a real chance for success. 

Thoughts?


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> I’ve been chatting with the PSU enology extension educator (she works with PA wineries). She’s suggesting that I try again with the three wise men. Using MLB for difficult wines, yeast hulls and ML nutrient.
> 
> I’m game for it, but only if there’s a real chance for success.
> 
> Thoughts?



Did you happen to ask about sulfite levels? I'm sure there are other factors to not allow MLF but this seems to be the most consistant. That would be my only thought.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Did you happen to ask about sulfite levels? I'm sure there are other factors to not allow MLF but this seems to be the most consistant. That would be my only thought.



Yep. She said basically what is generally known: More than 50ppm could inhibit fermentation. I don’t have the equipment to measure sulfite levels.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Tiny bubbles... in my wine.
> 
> Now that that song is stuck in your head, three of the four carboys are showing good signs on MLF.



Just sittin back tryin to recapture a little of the glory. Well time slips away and leaves you with nothin Mister but boring stories of the glory days. Yea they’ll pass you by, in the wink of a young girls eye. 



jgmann67 said:


> Using MLB for difficult wines, yeast hulls and ML nutrient.
> I’m game for it, but only if there’s a real chance for success.
> Thoughts?


 Just reminiscing a little  In my very humble opinion I think your best chance for success is to not take anything for granted. Why go through all that trouble of adding hulls, a workhorse ml and nutes with an unknown so2 level? At minimum you can use the titrets or accuvin strips- not dead accurate but will get you close enough. Some say titrets are tough to see the color change- but you can dilute your sample in equal parts water for a better visual. And then just double the number at the end. <$20 for 10 tests. 
I’d do everything in my power to help it along. Test all levels, the temps, rehydrate with Acti-ML (50g for 2.5g of mlb— haven’t ever inoculated without it), the lees stirring, adding oak helps the bacteria latch onto something, nutrients&hulls, and patience. And then check that malic-free chromatography paper like a boss!


----------



## Ajmassa




----------



## jgmann67

These wines have been racked off the lees. And, they're fairly well oaked, too. I abandoned the MLF ship in January, so I just figured I'd let it go and age the wines. I agree - if I'm going down this road again, I'll want to optimize as much as I can for success. 

I'll check around for the strips or other way to test free and total SO2.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> These wines have been racked off the lees. And, they're fairly well Oakes, too. I abandoned the MLF ship in January, so I just figured I'd let it go and age the wines. I agree - if I'm going down this road again, I'll want to optimize as much as I can for success.
> 
> I'll check around for the strips or other way to test free and total SO2.


Pretty sure Scotzin's has the strips, I saw them when I was in there the other week. Hoping to buy something to test SO2 later this year, if some unknown expense doesn't rear it's ugly head, fingers crossed...


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Pretty sure Scotzin's has the strips, I saw them when I was in there the other week. Hoping to buy something to test SO2 later this year, if some unknown expense doesn't rear it's ugly head, fingers crossed...



Don’t even type about the unknown...


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Don’t even type about the unknown...


True. It's like praying for patience.


----------



## jgmann67

This begs the question: What MLB? The MoreWine site points me to either CH16 or VP41 as the heartiest (with the CH16 being a bit more of a workhorse).


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> This begs the question: What MLB? The MoreWine site points me to either CH16 or VP41 as the heartiest (with the CH16 being a bit more of a workhorse).



Doubt you can make a wrong choice here. Those are the two heavy hitters as I’ve come to learn. 
I’m 4 for 4 with vp-41. All I’ve used but will be using both next month. Do you have solid pH’s on the 3 wise men?


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Doubt you can make a wrong choice here. Those are the two heavy hitters as I’ve come to learn.
> I’m 4 for 4 with vp-41. All I’ve used but will be using both next month. Do you have solid pH’s on the 3 wise men?



The pH's are very good. Between the two, I like the CH16 for its tolerances for alcohol and SO2 levels.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> The pH's are very good. Between the two, I like the CH16 for its tolerances for alcohol and SO2 levels.


Sorry for that bad info about the strips. I know it is pretty far out of your way!


----------



## jgmann67

So testing SO2 levels is a non-starter. The Titrator kit they had at the LHBS was for white wines. Checked MoreWine and, short of spending $99 or more, there’s nothing out there. 

Anyone with a full Vinemetrica set up want to do an old cranky man a favor??


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Sorry for that bad info about the strips. I know it is pretty far out of your way!



Not at all, it’s on my way home from work... kinda.


----------



## Ajmassa

The packaging just says the titrets are for white wines because it’s easier to see the color change. They also work for reds. Last time o bought em I think I ordered from piwine.com
They have a little suction tube. After prepping the titret the clear liquid inside will be dark purple- almost black. Suck up a tiny bit at a time and agitate to mix. Eventually it will turn to wines original color. With such a small amount of red wine even dark reds look lighter in color. You’ll know when you’ve reached that point. Plus you can always dilute the sample prior.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> So testing SO2 levels is a non-starter. The Titrator kit they had at the LHBS was for white wines. Checked MoreWine and, short of spending $99 or more, there’s nothing out there.
> 
> Anyone with a full Vinemetrica set up want to do an old cranky man a favor??



I'd be happy to. Just need about 40 ml. Can do more then one result if more were sent.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I'd be happy to. Just need about 40 ml. Can do more then one result if more were sent.



Awesome. Let’s connect via PM.


----------



## jgmann67

The numbers are back and I think we’re going to kick off an MLF shortly.View attachment 48300


----------



## jgmann67

. 

Not sure why the first post gave me an attachment even I can’t open. Interesting, the PV is the only one that finished MLF.

I’m reading up on MLB, and am liking what I see in the MBR-31.


----------



## cmason1957

jgmann67 said:


> View attachment 48301
> .
> 
> Not sure why the first post gave me an attachment even I can’t open. Interesting, the PV is the only one that finished MLF.
> 
> I’m reading up on MLB, and am liking what I see in the MBR-31.


Check out the Enoferm Alpha and Beta. I have had good luck with them the past couple of years.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> Check out the Enoferm Alpha and Beta. I have had good luck with them the past couple of years.


The only measurable difference I see is Beta's higher tolerance for SO2. Either seem to fill the "late in life MLF" bill I have. 

I think setting up 3 separate MLB starters is the way to go - rehydrate, feed and add.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I'd be happy to. Just need about 40 ml. Can do more then one result if more were sent.



Before I forget - I said thanks to him in PM, but, Fred is awesome! Very grateful for him testing my wines so quickly. I'm jonesin' for a Vinemetrica now...


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> The only measurable difference I see is Beta's higher tolerance for SO2. Either seem to fill the "late in life MLF" bill I have.
> 
> I think setting up 3 separate MLB starters is the way to go - rehydrate, feed and add.



How great is that tool?! On my list too. So Your adding ML to 3 different carboys, and will be using the same ML all at the same time correct?
Do you typically divide up before rehydrating? I just make 1 in a big measuring cup so I know how much to put in each. 
Curious to know what strain you end up using. I’m about to buy some myself and VP-41 is out of stock if I want free shipping. But Alpha, beta, 31 and 35 all look like reasonable options.


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> How great is that tool?! On my list too. So Your adding ML to 3 different carboys, and will be using the same ML all at the same time correct?
> Do you typically divide up before rehydrating? I just make 1 in a big measuring cup so I know how much to put in each.
> Curious to know what strain you end up using. I’m about to buy some myself and VP-41 is out of stock if I want free shipping. But Alpha, beta, 31 and 35 all look like reasonable options.



This season is the first time I've done multiple batches, but I divide up the MLB evenly to make sure it's distributed evenly. But, maybe I'm just being weird. 

I'm leaning towards the Beta.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Before I forget - I said thanks to him in PM, but, Fred is awesome! Very grateful for him testing my wines so quickly. I'm jonesin' for a Vinemetrica now...



He's good people!


----------



## jgmann67

So, followed my gut. Got the Beta because it had better all around tolerances. Also ordered up some Acri-ML and yeast hulls. Will launch this weekend sometime.


----------



## FTC Wines

Thinking about my fall grape order, has anyone blended Cab & Petit Syrah. My Cabs have been lacking body & color, thought some P Syrah could help. Roy


----------



## Ajmassa

FTC Wines said:


> Thinking about my fall grape order, has anyone blended Cab & Petit Syrah. My Cabs have been lacking body & color, thought some P Syrah could help. Roy



Maybe do the frozen water bottle deal to keep it on the skins longer too. 
I don’t know why I don’t see Alicante grapes used for this very often- which is what my family always used for color. By itself Alicante is damn near black. Even 1 blended with 2 part white still made a med bodied red wine. Regardless, Cab w/ P Syrah sounds like a winer.


----------



## Johnd

FTC Wines said:


> Thinking about my fall grape order, has anyone blended Cab & Petit Syrah. My Cabs have been lacking body & color, thought some P Syrah could help. Roy



Yep, have a 2/3 Cab, 1/3 Petite Sirah, 1/3 Merlot Cali blend in a 30 gallon barrel right now. So far, it’s pretty big, but still a babe in the woods.


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> Yep, have a 2/3 Cab, 1/3 Petite Sirah, 1/3 Merlot Cali blend in a 30 gallon barrel right now. So far, it’s pretty big, but still a babe in the woods.



At 4/3rds, I bet it is!! [emoji12]


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> At 4/3rds, I bet it is!! [emoji12]


LOL!! It’s a monster, crammed 4/3 into a 3/3 container!! Super Concentrated!! Try again, 2/3, 1/6, 1/6.


----------



## sour_grapes

Mine goes to 11!


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Maybe do the frozen water bottle deal to keep it on the skins longer too.
> I don’t know why I don’t see Alicante grapes used for this very often- which is what my family always used for color. By itself Alicante is damn near black. Even 1 blended with 2 part white still made a med bodied red wine. Regardless, Cab w/ P Syrah sounds like a winer.


I've used the frozen water bottle a few times with success. 

Was that your family blend white with alicante? I almost used with sangiovese last year. 

Might have to try a petite syrah/alicante blend.


----------



## pgentile

jgmann67 said:


> At 4/3rds, I bet it is!! [emoji12]


Probably banks at Fifth Thirds Bank too.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> I've used the frozen water bottle a few times with success.
> 
> Was that your family blend white with alicante? I almost used with sangiovese last year.
> 
> Might have to try a petite syrah/alicante blend.



Lol Last few posts were quite entertaining. 

Yeah Alicante : muscat 1:2 ratio. I feel like half the neighborhood did this blend. Often a couple lugs of Thompson’s seedless would be tossed in there as well. Essentially table wine I guess. I loved it. Would be finished before it could age. 
And Sangiovese could definitely benefit from some darker grape blended in. I didn’t realize how light they are until I bought em.


----------



## FTC Wines

Thanks AJ & John for replies. I was planning on a co ferment of Cab & P. Syrah, BUT think I'll ferment separately & blend after bench trials, but before it goes to sleep in the barrel. Thinking this will be a Home Run. Roy


----------



## Boatboy24

FTC Wines said:


> Thinking about my fall grape order, has anyone blended Cab & Petit Syrah. My Cabs have been lacking body & color, thought some P Syrah could help. Roy



I love petite sirah, both on its own and in a blend. Do it.


----------



## Johnd

I second @Boatboy24 's post, PS is a big winner in my book. I collect it when I can find really good ones, and love to make it.

Roy, my blend was also fermented separately, MLF'd separately, and combined when the barrel was loaded, used only the free run wine in the 30 gallon barrel. Tried to taste different blends, but it was all so green I didn't really get anywhere. Also ended up with a carboy of press wine, 2 gallons each cab, PS and Merlot which is in a Vadai with some oak staves, and have pretty high hopes for that one too.......

Lesson from last night: don't post after cocktails, a bottle wine and appetizers.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> I've used the frozen water bottle a few times with success.
> .



I think I’m gonna have some frozen bottles on the ready just in case for Chile grapes. Last fall my ferment was HOT and FAST! For cars and women? Sign me up. But hot and fast may have been a contributing factor of the ferment coming up a hair short of dry. 
On smaller ferments I’ve done cold water baths to have control, but in brutes frozen bottles seem ideal if she starts to get out of line.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I think I’m gonna have some frozen bottles on the ready just in case for Chile grapes. Last fall my ferment was HOT and FAST! For cars and women? Sign me up. But hot and fast may have been a contributing factor of the ferment coming up a hair short of dry.
> On smaller ferments I’ve done cold water baths to have control, but in brutes frozen bottles seem ideal if she starts to get out of line.



Luckily for me I have a hot woman who visits me regularly in the winery. One of these days I'll get a fast car again.

What I finds works best is to have two or more frozen 1 gallon water jugs in rotation as they thaw. And of course sanitize them.


----------



## mainshipfred

Lesson from last night: don't post after cocktails, a bottle wine and appetizers.[/QUOTE]

My vote is for you to keep doing it, had way to much fun reading the posts.


----------



## JohnT

I make a straight PS all the time. I have never made a PS that failed to medal in competition. Awesome grape.

Yes, cab by itself can be rather thin IMHO. I have blended it with either PS or Merlot (depending on the year) to very favorable results.


----------



## Ajmassa

Well you guys planted the seed and now my impulses are off and runnin!
I was ready to throw on some lugs of PS to toss in with the Malbec tomorrow at crush. Ain’t no spring PS tho! No grapes available that weren’t pre-ordered anyway. 
(Tho they may have some SA Syrah available she said. Either way I doubt I’ll leave without some sort of impulse buy)
Gonna need to invest in a trailer to hitch one of these days.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Lesson from last night: don't post after cocktails, a bottle wine and appetizers.



My vote is for you to keep doing it, had way to much fun reading the posts.[/QUOTE]

Glad that I could be of service...............


----------



## Venatorscribe

Ajmassa5983 said:


> How so? Why are you messing with my head now? Lol. I was all pumped for a Super Tuscan.
> The blend has basically no rules. With Sangiovese merlot cabsav or syrah. My biggest concern was when to blend. Blending right at crush would just be easier and less to stress over I figured. What's the common screw ups with it?


Really like your bio line. I experience that feeling once of twice a year. Haha


----------



## jgmann67

Think I'll spend some time in the shop today. Gotta rack the SE Amarone that I did the EM. Smells great, though.

I'm also going to try an MLF again. This will be the third (and last) time with this wine.

SO2 levels are low, pH's and TA' are good. Nothing on my calendar till later today... going to do a little ready, then it's go time.


----------



## jgmann67

So, I first dropped a little more than 4g of rehydrated yeast hulls in each of the three wines. Then followed the instructions to rehydrate the Beta with 50g of Acti-ML in 250ml of water for 15 minutes. Stirred, separated the cocktail into three even doses and hit each wine... now we wait.

The wines are a solid 70*. I'm hoping to see some real MLF activity in the next day or two. After this third try, I can't see doing a 4th.


----------



## jgmann67

Tiny bubbles are most visible in the Cab with the lowest SO2. But all three seem to be doing something. Will stir every three days over the next month and see where we land.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Tiny bubbles are most visible in the Cab with the lowest SO2. But all three seem to be doing something. Will stir every three days over the next month and see where we land.



Interesting, what’s the ambient temp in the MLF area today compared to your previous efforts?


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> Interesting, what’s the ambient temp in the MLF area today compared to your previous efforts?



It was cool in the wine room this morning - about 68*.


----------



## jgmann67

I went down to do my three-day stir this morning, Cab 1 is showing more signs of MLF while Cab 2 and the Merlot are substantially less so. Part of me wants to go and buy two more packets of Beta and "give 'em the beans" (dosing them both with an additional 2.5g of MLB). But, I'm waiting - it's only 6 days in and, while they're not 'active,' there is something going on...


----------



## cmason1957

Just a reminder, I (and I am pretty sure others) have had successful MLF's with never a sign of bubbles or nothing going on. At least none that I ever saw. Give it time, wait a few weeks and test, only way to really know if something is going on or not.


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> Just a reminder, I (and I am pretty sure others) have had successful MLF's with never a sign of bubbles or nothing going on. At least none that I ever saw. Give it time, wait a few weeks and test, only way to really know if something is going on or not.



100%. I learned that 1st hand last year on my first time doing MLF. Did 2 batches. One showed lots of visible activity. The other? None. Zilch. Zero. 
Ran the chroma test and both had progressed equally well. Few more weeks and chroma showed completion. No sign of any malic spots at all. 
And another friendly reminder about MLF. After chroma showed completion I had some test strips I bought before I got the chroma kit. They read malic acid in g/L. One read ~20g/L and the other about 100g/L. Reaffirming that when chroma shows comlplete- wait another 2-4 weeks.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I went down to do my three-day stir this morning, Cab 1 is showing more signs of MLF while Cab 2 and the Merlot are substantially less so. Part of me wants to go and buy two more packets of Beta and "give 'em the beans" (dosing them both with an additional 2.5g of MLB). But, I'm waiting - it's only 6 days in and, while they're not 'active,' there is something going on...


I'm about to kick of an MLF with my Cab Sauv/Merlot, so I have room on a test sheet, how about a test in about a week or two or three? I'm planning on pitching some CH16 on Saturday if I have time to rack it off the gross lees.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I'm about to kick of an MLF with my Cab Sauv/Merlot, so I have room on a test sheet, how about a test in about a week or two or three? I'm planning on pitching some CH16 on Saturday if I have time to rack it off the gross lees.



Since I just pitched last week, three weeks from now sounds great. 

I’m really hopeful. Cab1 is cooking along from the looks of it...


----------



## jgmann67

jgmann67 said:


> Since I just pitched last week, three weeks from now sounds great.
> 
> I’m really hopeful. Cab1 is cooking along from the looks of it...



Oh - and when you come over, maybe bring some sludge with active mlb in it from your Chileans..: just in case.

[emoji51][emoji51]


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Oh - and when you come over, maybe bring some sludge with active mlb in it from your Chileans..: just in case.
> 
> [emoji51][emoji51]


Let's see how active mine gets first! Maybe I can keep some of my MLB and food save it and put in the fridge. I am only doing one batch, so pitching the whole package is way overkill. Hopefully I'll rack that batch off of the gross lees today or tomorrow and rehydrate and pitch the MLB (using CH16). It's still blurping along at a slower pace, just haven't tested the SG since I racked it the other day.


----------



## jgmann67

Three day stir yesterday. Cab1 still the only one showing signs of life.


----------



## jgmann67

Three weeks in, now. Status the same. I hesitate to say anything good about it (almost as bad as asking 'what else can go wrong?').


----------



## jgmann67

Well, 4 weeks have come and gone.


----------



## baron4406

Hey I have an idea, do you usual ferment(I personally like hot ferments), then press as usual. Then, "borrow" a tactic from the kit wine guys and do an Extended Maceration on the skins for 6 to 8 weeks. I was gonna try it on my Chileans this year-but I wimped out.


----------



## ceeaton

And the test results are in:


----------



## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> And the test results are in:
> 
> View attachment 49706



Hmmmm, after a couple of months, only one finished, one moving, and two showing no signs, bummer. Good looking test sheet though, nice job!!!!!!!


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> And the test results are in:
> 
> View attachment 49706



Was this CH16? I just ordered some for the Australian juice buckets coming in this week. No vp41 available. All four of my batches with vp41 this spring were showing completion of MLF at 60 days.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Was this CH16? I just ordered some for the Australian juice buckets coming in this week. No vp41 available. All four of my batches with vp41 this spring were showing completion of MLF at 60 days.


I pretty sure it was for mine (Cab 3). I think Jim has used multiple ones on his Cab (Cab1 & 2) and Merlot. I'm going to save some slurry from mine to give to him. I had also saved some of the MLB in the fridge since I was only doing one small 6 gallon batch, but of course forgot to drop it off when I visited for the samples yesterday. Sometimes I act like I'm getting old in the brain.


----------



## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Hmmmm, after a couple of months, only one finished, one moving, and two showing no signs, bummer. Good looking test sheet though, nice job!!!!!!!


I'm surprised I remembered how to do it, it's been awhile. Guess it's like riding a bike, or opening a beer, or drinking some wine...


----------



## jgmann67

Yep. The first three are mine and show only minimal progress. Once again, a disappointment - thought the 3rd time would be a charm. Looks like maybe four will do it. After that, I think I'm done.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Yep. The first three are mine and show only minimal progress. Once again, a disappointment - thought the 3rd time would be a charm. Looks like maybe four will do it. After that, I think I'm done.



I've been very happy with the two co-inoculations I've done. Don't think I'm ever going back.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I've been very happy with the two co-inoculations I've done. Don't think I'm ever going back.



I does seem to work well base on the Carmenere skins you gave me. I'm torn.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I've been very happy with the two co-inoculations I've done. Don't think I'm ever going back.



Welcome to the dark side! Once I studied it enough and convinced myself to try it, there’s been no turning back for me either


----------



## jgmann67

Two seasons of problematic MLF is enough for me. I'm co-inoculating from now on.


----------



## pgentile

Co-inoculation is the way to go. Learned it right here in this forum.


----------



## cmason1957

Bahh humbug!!! I'll stay on the light side of ferment, press, rack in a few days, add the mlb at that time, sure it might then take three or four months after that to finish, but with good mlb, good nutrition, good sanitation and generally not adding any SO2 up-front it works for me. 

I'm just a Luddite.


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> Bahh humbug!!! I'll stay on the light side of ferment, press, rack in a few days, add the mlb at that time, sure it might then take three or four months after that to finish, but with good mlb, good nutrition, good sanitation and generally not adding any SO2 up-front it works for me.
> 
> I'm just a Luddite.


----------



## cmason1957

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 49723



Do you have cookies or maybe I should ask about wine??? HUMMMMM


----------



## mainshipfred

cmason1957 said:


> Bahh humbug!!! I'll stay on the light side of ferment, press, rack in a few days, add the mlb at that time, sure it might then take three or four months after that to finish, but with good mlb, good nutrition, good sanitation and generally not adding any SO2 up-front it works for me.
> 
> I'm just a Luddite.



Call me one as well, although it's proven to work effectively and I can personally attest.


----------



## cmason1957

mainshipfred said:


> Call me one as well, although it's proven to work effectively and I can personally attest.



I know, it has worked so well for me for the past 7 years, that I am very hesitant to change it. Also, I use my trash can fermenters for things other than just grapes and I worry about having MLF bacteria in things I don't want to have MLF. As a side note, I have designated glass/plastic carboys that only get things that have had MLB inoculated.


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> Do you have cookies or maybe I should ask about wine??? HUMMMMM



Ok what’s the story there? When I googled for that Vador image 90% of them said “come to the dark side. We have cookies”. And now you just referenced cookies! I’m in the “dark” with the cookie thing.


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ok what’s the story there? When I googled for that Vador image 90% of them said “come to the dark side. We have cookies”. And now you just referenced cookies! I’m in the “dark” with the cookie thing.



I think you got the reference.


----------



## cmason1957

You got the reference, at least as far as this old fart knows it. And I do class myself as old, since I saw Star Wars in the theater during its first run at the box office.


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> You got the reference, at least as far as this old fart knows it. And I do class myself as old, since I saw Star Wars in the theater during its first run at the box office.



Gotchya. Thought it was something specific. Well- regardless, I respect your confident stance on sequential inoculation. Can’t argue with results. And I see how it can be viewed as comforting to not “rush it” and letting the wine naturally come into its own. 
But if you ever did come to the dark side just know we DO have cookies. And we have complete chromatography tests. And also an ‘express lane’ for MLF. 
Before my 1st time I researched he hell out of it. Tons of studies and none suggest co-inoc has any negative effects. 
No longer viewed as risky, just a preference now. And just like you, I’ll continue with what’s worked for me. 7 for 7 with co-innoc and all went quick. (x4)VP-41 and (x3) Enoferm Alpha.


----------



## baron4406

Just did a side by side with CH-16, one was co-inoculation, one was standard. The co-inoculation batch finished faster! I've now come to the dark side of the Schwartz.


----------



## Ajmassa

baron4406 said:


> Just did a side by side with CH-16, one was co-inoculation, one was standard. The co-inoculation batch finished faster! I've now come to the dark side of the Schwartz.



Quicker is good! But too fast might be Ludacris.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Yep. The first three are mine and show only minimal progress. Once again, a disappointment - thought the 3rd time would be a charm. Looks like maybe four will do it. After that, I think I'm done.



Am I reading this correctly, and you are going to inoculate for a 4th time?
I suppose i would too. And would just get enough bacteria this September for last year’s as well as the new stuff. Is that the plan? Think we need to get you your own MLF test kit for Christmas this year too.


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Am I reading this correctly, and you are going to inoculate for a 4th time?
> I suppose i would too. And would just get enough bacteria this September for last year’s as well as the new stuff. Is that the plan? Think we need to get you your own MLF test kit for Christmas this year too.


I don't mind testing his too since I'm usually working a batch the same time he is and there is plenty of room on those sheets. Hopefully I get my Cab that finished MLF racked and can give him some slurry from it. I believe last time he had some issues the slurry put him "over the top" and MLF completed. Next time he'll have to co-inoculate if he uses BM4x4, since it isn't post-ferment MLB friendly according to Lallmand's site.

*Fermentation Speed*
Moderate

_*MLF Compatibility
Not really recommended*_

*Nitrogen Needs*
High

*Alcohol Tolerance*
15 %

*Volatile Acidity*
Moderate

*SO₂ Production*
Moderate

*Max. Temperature*
28 °C

*Min. Temperature*
16 °C

*H₂S 170ppm*
Low

*H₂S 60ppm*
Moderate

*Suitability for co-Inoculation*
Very recommended

*Acetaldehyde Production*
High


----------



## jgmann67

Yep. I’m probably done with the BM4X4 with my fresh grapes. 

I should get my own chromo kit... someday. 

I figure 3 tries begs a 4th.


----------



## pgentile

@ceeaton and @jgmann67 after I co-inoculated my pinotage grapes with BM4x4 and vp41 I read about BM4x4 not be the best choice for MLF. I worried but both finished without issue. Did chroma and MLF was complete. Taste is good.

Was going with a similar formula in my australian buckets, but now I'm second guessing the BM4x4.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Yep. I’m probably done with the BM4X4 with my fresh grapes.
> 
> I should get my own chromo kit... someday.
> 
> I figure 3 tries begs a 4th.



I’ve been using BM 4x4 on all my grapes, co inoculated VP-41, all have completed a few weeks after AF.


----------



## jgmann67

pgentile said:


> @ceeaton and @jgmann67 after I co-inoculated my pinotage grapes with BM4x4 and vp41 I read about BM4x4 not be the best choice for MLF. I worried but both finished without issue. Did chroma and MLF was complete. Taste is good.
> 
> Was going with a similar formula in my australian buckets, but now I'm second guessing the BM4x4.



I think you’re fine to coinoculate. It’s only when you do side by side that you may have difficulties. Honestly, I could just be doing something wrong that causes me to run into successive MLF fails. 

I didn’t see that part in the BM4X4 directions when I selected my yeast though.


----------



## Boatboy24

I've used BM4X4 both ways and only had an issue once. That was on a 2016 Chilean and all 4 of the wines I did that spring were unsuccessful with MLF. Only one of them was BM4X4.


----------



## jgmann67

Spent a week in Georgia, and stopped off on my way home last night to pick up a beer bottle of MLB sludge from Craig. Added some to each of the three amigos and gave them a good stir. Plenty of nutrient already there. So, now I gotta pack for a work trip to Kentucky. I hope to come home to something active.


----------



## mainshipfred

Did anyone make a 2017 White Zin from Harford? I made 2 separate batches, one I threw out and the other has a funny off taste that I'm not sure what it is.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Did anyone make a 2017 White Zin from Harford? I made 2 separate batches, one I threw out and the other has a funny off taste that I'm not sure what it is.


I just racked mine over the weekend. Smelled pretty good, much lighter in body than the 2016 White zin bucket (which I think they had mislabeled, might have been a Pinot Noir bucket). The color had an orange tinge to it, which worried me, but a sample didn't give me a headache immediately (which most oxidized wines do). I backsweetened it to 1.003 for now and plan on taking a sample for the wifey to test this weekend, since it's her wine to drink/give away. Nothing spectacular, but when is a white zin put into that category?


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> I just racked mine over the weekend. Smelled pretty good, much lighter in body than the 2016 White zin bucket (which I think they had mislabeled, might have been a Pinot Noir bucket). The color had an orange tinge to it, which worried me, but a sample didn't give me a headache immediately (which most oxidized wines do). I backsweetened it to 1.003 for now and plan on taking a sample for the wifey to test this weekend, since it's her wine to drink/give away. Nothing spectacular, but when is a white zin put into that category?



Maybe that's it. Mine was also made for my wife and friends who prefer that type of wine. Someone in another thread said you have to try to appreciate the wine for what it is. I guess I may not be very good at that yet.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Maybe that's it. Mine was also made for my wife and friends who prefer that type of wine. Someone in another thread said you have to try to appreciate the wine for what it is. I guess I may not be very good at that yet.


Practice, patience. Easy to say, hard to live.


----------



## jgmann67

No activity noticed... argh.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> No activity noticed... argh.



I could never get a conclusive answer to what level of total sulfites it takes to hinder MLF. I can only imagine that is the issue.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I could never get a conclusive answer to what level of total sulfites it takes to hinder MLF. I can only imagine that is the issue.



I tend to agree. Wish I had some rolling MLF sludge to add to the wines to attack the issue head on.


----------



## Johnd

Best bet, especially when you have grapes shipped in and don't know if / how much they may have been sulfited or exposed to sulfite gas, is don't add sulfites unless you absolutely have to.


----------



## mainshipfred

One of these days I'm going to quit being lazy and learn how to test for total SO2 with the Vinmetrica.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> One of these days I'm going to quit being lazy and learn how to test for total SO2 with the Vinmetrica.



It’s no more difficult than running TA, just one more chemical in the mix.


----------



## FTC Wines

Fred, We too were “ lazy/intimidated “ with our Vin 300! I made some easy to read cheat sheets sealed in plastic binders for the 3 tests. Now we do a bunch, sometimes 10-12 wines at the same time. After the 2nd test it’s a piece of cake. Roy


----------



## mainshipfred

FTC Wines said:


> Fred, We too were “ lazy/intimidated “ with our Vin 300! I made some easy to read cheat sheets sealed in plastic binders for the 3 tests. Now we do a bunch, sometimes 10-12 wines at the same time. After the 2nd test it’s a piece of cake. Roy



I have a cheat sheet myself just have to add the total SO2 test to it.


----------



## jpwatkins9

Just got my Cabernet Sauvignon grapes and juice(helped with the picking) from 20+ year old Texas hill country vines. Optical measure of sugar is 25.8 Brix, Ph is 3.6 and Sp Grav. 1.101. Juice with grapes some stems, etc. in the primary fermenter with water lock and pitched pre-hydrated 1118 yeast last night. Will let it sit for a week or two, but keep track of the fermentation every few days. Then MLF and some racking before putting it into a 20 liter French oak barrel for a few years. Should be a fun experiment.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> No activity noticed... argh.


I think your "no activity" has been confirmed. I pulled a test from February, seems to show the Merlot ahead of the other two (or at least less Malic).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I think your "no activity" has been confirmed. I pulled a test from February, seems to show the Merlot ahead of the other two (or at least less Malic).
> 
> View attachment 50684



Thanks, Craig. Anyone have any ideas before I rack and sulphite these three???


----------



## jgmann67

I'm talking with the vineyard and winery advisors at PSU's extension center. No new ideas there. Anyone??


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> I'm talking with the vineyard and winery advisors at PSU's extension center. No new ideas there. Anyone??



Jim I think you did all you can do. Does it taste OK?


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> I'm talking with the vineyard and winery advisors at PSU's extension center. No new ideas there. Anyone??



Acceptance


----------



## jgmann67

The PV (which went through MLF no problem) and Merlot taste fine. I haven’t tasted the Cab lately. Next time I’m down in the cellar, we’ll give it a ride. Craig insists that they just taste like young wines. Time will tell. 

I’ve been contemplating bottling in a year and possibly NOT doing a blend of any sort. That way, if the Cab never turns the corner, it gives the two others a better chance of shining.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> The PV (which went through MLF no problem) and Merlot taste fine. I haven’t tasted the Cab lately. Next time I’m down in the cellar, we’ll give it a ride. Craig insists that they just taste like young wines. Time will tell.
> 
> I’ve been contemplating bottling in a year and possibly NOT doing a blend of any sort. That way, if the Cab never turns the corner, it gives the two others a better chance of shining.



Since you're not sure I think that is a great plan.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> The PV (which went through MLF no problem) and Merlot taste fine. I haven’t tasted the Cab lately. Next time I’m down in the cellar, we’ll give it a ride. Craig insists that they just taste like young wines. Time will tell.
> 
> I’ve been contemplating bottling in a year and possibly NOT doing a blend of any sort. That way, if the Cab never turns the corner, it gives the two others a better chance of shining.



If you can get one, a 6 month ride in a neutral barrel would go pretty far in helping the wine mellow and smooth out before bottling.


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> If you can get one, a 6 month ride in a neutral barrel would go pretty far in helping the wine mellow and smooth out before bottling.



Great thought but probably not an option. They don't sell neutral barrels (that I know of, anyway)) and I don't know anyone within driving distance with one. Will keep my eyes open.


----------



## jgmann67

I heard back from the wine lady at the Penn State Extension Center... she suggested hitting it again and following the morewine guidance for difficult MLF's (looked and didn't see this one). I would imagine that the three amigos are at about ZERO SO2 right now. And, in about two weeks I will be using a CH16 to do a co-inoculation. Since it should be enough for 66 gallons and there will likely only be about 14 gallons of OV Zin, what if I took half for the OVZ and split the other half three ways among the amigos?


----------



## pgentile

jgmann67 said:


> I heard back from the wine lady at the Penn State Extension Center... she suggested hitting it again and following the morewine guidance for difficult MLF's (looked and didn't see this one). I would imagine that the three amigos are at about ZERO SO2 right now. And, in about two weeks I will be using a CH16 to do a co-inoculation. Since it should be enough for 66 gallons and there will likely only be about 14 gallons of OV Zin, what if I took half for the OVZ and split the other half three ways among the amigos?



The last several times I have ordered MLB, VP41 and CH16 I split the contents of each package into four equal portions. Use one each in 10-15 gallon batches. All have gone through MLF fine.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I heard back from the wine lady at the Penn State Extension Center... she suggested hitting it again and following the morewine guidance for difficult MLF's (looked and didn't see this one). I would imagine that the three amigos are at about ZERO SO2 right now. And, in about two weeks I will be using a CH16 to do a co-inoculation. Since it should be enough for 66 gallons and there will likely only be about 14 gallons of OV Zin, what if I took half for the OVZ and split the other half three ways among the amigos?



Go for it.


----------



## cmason1957

jgmann67 said:


> I heard back from the wine lady at the Penn State Extension Center... she suggested hitting it again and following the morewine guidance for difficult MLF's (looked and didn't see this one). I would imagine that the three amigos are at about ZERO SO2 right now. And, in about two weeks I will be using a CH16 to do a co-inoculation. Since it should be enough for 66 gallons and there will likely only be about 14 gallons of OV Zin, what if I took half for the OVZ and split the other half three ways among the amigos?



What have you got to lose?? Might as well go for try number ??? oh I lost count.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> What have you got to lose?? Might as well go for try number ??? oh I lost count.



Four. This will be #4 attempt to get an MLF going. Hopefully, this one sticks (I bet that's what Frank Sinatra thought when he married for the 4th time, too).


----------



## jgmann67

I tasted the Cab last weekend. It's not as sour, but the sour is still there. Hoping for a successful MLF with #4. 

I figure I'll get the 2018 grapes home on Saturday, hit them with some SO2, wait 24 or so hours to kick the must off with an AF. The MLF co-inoculation would be 48 hours after that. So, I should be kicking off the fourth attempt at an MLF on Monday or Tuesday night.


----------



## Ajmassa

Is this MLF really that important? I don’t remember the tasting status of the 3 wines, but are you thinking it’s essential for them? And how to even know if the cab’s issue will be resolved with MLf ?
Before I got into this forum I made juice pails always w/o any MLf, or any other adjustments for that matter. The ones that actually got some age on them drank great. I realize it can benefit mostly all reds. But isn’t it true that you can still make a really great wine that hasn’t gone thru MLf ?


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Is this MLF really that important? I don’t remember the tasting status of the 3 wines, but are you thinking it’s essential for them? And how to even know if the cab’s issue will be resolved with MLf ?
> Before I got into this forum I made juice pails always w/o any MLf, or any other adjustments for that matter. The ones that actually got some age on them drank great. I realize it can benefit mostly all reds. But isn’t it true that you can still make a really great wine that hasn’t gone thru MLf ?



All great questions. The only think I can say is, I think so. It's important to me, to the point of being essential (and if it doesn't actually happen, I'll be disappointed). In my mind: bought premium grapes to make a premium wine and MLF is essential to a premium wine. The PV took it's MLF without issue and is on a par with where I think it should be at this stage of the game. The malic acid in the Merlot seems to have decreased and it tastes pretty good - a full MLF should push that back up to par. The Cabs have refused 3 attempts for an MLF and there's still a sour to them. I might be hypersensitive or this might all be in my head, I know. But, that's just who/what I am...


----------



## Ajmassa

Totally understand that. Especially when opting for more expensive grapes. Refresh my memory. Where were the grapes from?


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Totally understand that. Especially when opting for more expensive grapes. Refresh my memory. Where were the grapes from?



Last year's grapes from Harford Vinyards. Brought in from the Suisun Valley, Lanza Vineyard.


----------



## jgmann67

So, last night I took 1g of the MLB and dropped that in my 2018 wine. The rest of the MLB was divided among the three amigos. Primed with Acri-ML and inoculated late last night, the dropped Opti-Malo today. 

Now we wait.... again.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So, last night I took 1g of the MLB and dropped that in my 2018 wine. The rest of the MLB was divided among the three amigos. Primed with Acri-ML and inoculated late last night, the dropped Opti-Malo today.
> 
> Now we wait.... again.


----------



## jgmann67

A week later. No visible signs of... well, anything.


----------



## jgmann67

Fourth time... Not a charm. I racked and dosed these wines yesterday. 

I’m tempted to hit one of the cabs with clarifiers just to see what would fall out.


----------



## Boatboy24

Well you can't say you didn't try. How are they tasting?


----------



## cmason1957

I'll offer this anecdote, not advice. At the wine club I belong to, last month we had a member bring in two bottles from the same vintage. He purchased the liquid mlb that treats 6 gallons and he had nine gallons of wine. So we had a taste of off two wines, one went through mlf, the other did not. While there was a distinct difference between the two, it was almost tied between who liked which better. And I was torn. So maybe we put to much into doing the mlf, who knows. Both tasted pretty good.


----------



## JohnT

I like the buttery taste you get from mlf. To me, it is well worth it.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Well you can't say you didn't try. How are they tasting?



I didn’t taste them. Instead, I racked, dosed, waited a day and hit each of the wines with tannin (mostly 2g of tannin riche extra, but I hit one with 3g of a mix of tannin riche extra and FT Rouge). I’m going to let them alone till after the new year. Then, do some trials, blend and bottle in the spring.


----------



## jgmann67

Interesting. I hit one of the cabs with some clarifier. A good bit of fine lees has dropped in just a few hours. I’m going to take a day or two, then rack it again. 

The other Cab (no clarifier) is only showing a little bit of lees at the bottom. Maybe I hit that one too.


----------



## jgmann67

Given the results from the first Cab, I hit the other cab with some clarifier, too. I’m going to wait a day or two, then blend the Cab and Merlot. 

Going to leave the PV out until bench trials. 

I


----------



## jgmann67

Sampled one of the cabs today. Markedly better wine. Less sour, more tannin.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Sampled one of the cabs today. Markedly better wine. Less sour, more tannin.



I know you're disappointed this didn't go through MLF but I bet in the end you will have a fine wine.


----------



## jgmann67

So at last measure (thanks Fred), my ph was about 3.2 and my materials all suggest a ph of around 3.6. Thoughts on making adjustments now that I'm done futzing with MLF?


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So at last measure (thanks Fred), my ph was about 3.2 and my materials all suggest a ph of around 3.6. Thoughts on making adjustments now that I'm done futzing with MLF?



You've got to go on taste at this point.


----------



## jgmann67

Maybe target 3.4 and see if there's any change in taste.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Maybe target 3.4 and see if there's any change in taste.


I always do half of the adjustment of what I think I want to adjust to. I've never been disappointed. I'm assuming you already adjusted your wine.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I always do half of the adjustment of what I think I want to adjust to. I've never been disappointed. I'm assuming you already adjusted your wine.



Nope. Not yet.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Nope. Not yet.


I'd offer to come over and taste it (and a few others) tomorrow but the wifey has a work weekend and I've got to be around to pick up my daughter at the school at some unknown afternoon hour (after getting her there at 6 am). So much for sleeping in...


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I'd offer to come over and taste it (and a few others) tomorrow but the wifey has a work weekend and I've got to be around to pick up my daughter at the school at some unknown afternoon hour (after getting her there at 6 am). So much for sleeping in...



Been in the woods this weekend, trying to shoot Bambi. No luck.


----------



## jgmann67

So I got a wild hair and decided to finish the blend. 

* 19.5 gallons of Cab/Merlot/PV in a 59/29/12% blend; 
* 5 gallons of PV/Cab/Merlot in a 50/36/14% blend. And, 
* 3/4 of a gallon of PV left over. 

Another plus, the sour is pretty much gone.


----------



## ceeaton

I need to come taste!

I'll bring some sausage for lunch once I perfect a recipe. The kielbasa is pretty good at this point...Weisswurst is good, bratwurst is getting better.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I need to come taste!
> 
> I'll bring some sausage for lunch once I perfect a recipe. The kielbasa is pretty good at this point...Weisswurst is good, bratwurst is getting better.



Sounds like a plan!


----------



## jgmann67

I think for my finishing touch on these blends, I’m going to add some tannin or French M+ oak. Let it sit another three months and bottle in spring.


----------



## jgmann67

Went to my lhbs this weekend and picked up oak spirals for the wine. French medium toast. It said to use one for ever three gallons of wine and let it sit for six weeks for full extraction. 

I decided to only drop one spiral in each of the Cab-dominated blends. The PV dominated blend is making me very happy right now so I figured I shouldn’t fiddle with it anymore. 

I’ll let them sit until it’s time to bottle. 

Since I had a spare spiral, I dropped it in to my Aussie Chard that’s aging on fine lees. It will be interesting to see what it does.


----------



## jgmann67

It’s two months later and I had a big rack-a-palooza last night. 

Racked a bone dry French rose into a secondary and began clearing it; and racked the Australian Chard and the Luna Bianca into clean carboys. 

Then, I racked the three cab dominated 2017 blends to get them off of the oak spiral. It will need a little time to mellow but, generally, it was a good move. 

Interesting - there were a lot of crispy wine diamonds at the bottom of each carboy. I’m going to leave them nap for 3 more months and taste them again before bottling.

I only dosed the PV dominated blend with Kmeta (didn’t rack). I might rack it next month to see if I have the same wine diamond issue. But after 6 rankings in one night, I couldn’t bring myself to do another.


----------



## Bill McNab

Hopefully I am connecting with Lodi area CA winemakers.
I need a little advice please and thanks.
I made Petite Sirah wine from grapes in 2018.
I live in TN and have to drive to Detroit where I can obtain premium CA grapes crushed and destemmed.
2019 I plan to make P.S. and Cab Sauv plus Barbera or Zinfandel.
Can anyone generally tell me if harvest dates for those grapes in the Lodi area are in the same time frame.
Trying to avoid 2 trips to Detroit. ( Have family in Windsor, over the border from Detroit in case anyone is thinking that I love driving, family visit at the same time.)
Thanks for replying.
Bill.


----------



## jgmann67

Bill McNab said:


> Hopefully I am connecting with Lodi area CA winemakers.
> I need a little advice please and thanks.
> I made Petite Sirah wine from grapes in 2018.
> I live in TN and have to drive to Detroit where I can obtain premium CA grapes crushed and destemmed.
> 2019 I plan to make P.S. and Cab Sauv plus Barbera or Zinfandel.
> Can anyone generally tell me if harvest dates for those grapes in the Lodi area are in the same time frame.
> Trying to avoid 2 trips to Detroit. ( Have family in Windsor, over the border from Detroit in case anyone is thinking that I love driving, family visit at the same time.)
> Thanks for replying.
> Bill.



Bill, the harvest dates in Lodi and compared to, say the Suisun Valley, are comparable. But, from what I recall Petite Sirah tends to come in a little later than the others (maybe two to three weeks later). My first wine from grapes was a PS and I remember getting antsy because everyone else's grapes had come in but mine. YMMV.


----------



## Johnd

Bill McNab said:


> Hopefully I am connecting with Lodi area CA winemakers.
> I need a little advice please and thanks.
> I made Petite Sirah wine from grapes in 2018.
> I live in TN and have to drive to Detroit where I can obtain premium CA grapes crushed and destemmed.
> 2019 I plan to make P.S. and Cab Sauv plus Barbera or Zinfandel.
> Can anyone generally tell me if harvest dates for those grapes in the Lodi area are in the same time frame.
> Trying to avoid 2 trips to Detroit. ( Have family in Windsor, over the border from Detroit in case anyone is thinking that I love driving, family visit at the same time.)
> Thanks for replying.
> Bill.



I've gotten grapes from the Lodi area the last few years, have done Cab, Petite Sirah and Merlot, those grapes have all been picked around the end of the first week in October. No experience with the Zin or Barbera........... 

Just thinking out loud, but Brehm has a distribution facility for their must in Chicago, and they freeze must, so buying from them, even if you're harvest timing wasn't the same, it's easy to hold there until all of the grapes are in..


----------



## ibglowin

The big grape suppliers in that area all have large cold storage facilities. They can hold the early ripening grapes for a few weeks and then ship them all out at the same time on the same truck. Not always the best practice but the only possible way to get wine grapes shipped out all across the US with decent quality on one truck.


----------



## Bill McNab

Thank you Gentlemen for replying, I am assuming you are Gentlemen, wait a minute, you must be, you make wine.


----------



## CDrew

Bill McNab said:


> Hopefully I am connecting with Lodi area CA winemakers.
> I need a little advice please and thanks.
> I made Petite Sirah wine from grapes in 2018.
> I live in TN and have to drive to Detroit where I can obtain premium CA grapes crushed and destemmed.
> 2019 I plan to make P.S. and Cab Sauv plus Barbera or Zinfandel.
> Can anyone generally tell me if harvest dates for those grapes in the Lodi area are in the same time frame.
> Trying to avoid 2 trips to Detroit. ( Have family in Windsor, over the border from Detroit in case anyone is thinking that I love driving, family visit at the same time.)
> Thanks for replying.
> Bill.




Bill, I live here (Sacramento) and every year is different. We were harvesting grapes near Lodi at the end of October 2017. In 2018, the harvest started in late September. I have seen grapes being picked as early as late August! I don't thinks that helps you, but there is a significant variation. I hope you can get all of your grapes at once, but Tennessee to Detroit seems like a long drive to do more than once. Maybe just do 1 varietal but make more of it? 

Zinfandel does tend to ripen a bit earlier than say, Cabernet. Not sure about Barbera but it's one of my #1 favorite food wines, and plan a significant vintage in 2019.

Good luck!


----------



## mainshipfred

Bill McNab said:


> Hopefully I am connecting with Lodi area CA winemakers.
> I need a little advice please and thanks.
> I made Petite Sirah wine from grapes in 2018.
> I live in TN and have to drive to Detroit where I can obtain premium CA grapes crushed and destemmed.
> 2019 I plan to make P.S. and Cab Sauv plus Barbera or Zinfandel.
> Can anyone generally tell me if harvest dates for those grapes in the Lodi area are in the same time frame.
> Trying to avoid 2 trips to Detroit. ( Have family in Windsor, over the border from Detroit in case anyone is thinking that I love driving, family visit at the same time.)
> Thanks for replying.
> Bill.



I don't know what kind of a drive that is but mine is over 3 hours and my spring grapes are coming in about a week apart. I just asked the vendor to keep the first ones in the freezer so I only make on trip.


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## Bill McNab

I will probably fo the same, my supplier has a nice big cooler / freezer.
CDrew has a good idea also.
TN to Detroit is a 10 hour drive one way.
I surely do envy winemakers living near grape country, although, if I was living there I would make too much wine,
Thanks to all for replying.
Bill.


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## mainshipfred

Bill McNab said:


> I will probably fo the same, my supplier has a nice big cooler / freezer.
> CDrew has a good idea also.
> TN to Detroit is a 10 hour drive one way.
> I surely do envy winemakers living near grape country, although, if I was living there I would make too much wine,
> Thanks to all for replying.
> Bill.



10 hours is a really long drive. What part of Tennessee are you in? We have a group in Maryland that gets Lodi grapes and I think there is a person on the forum that does a group buy in N Carolina. I think it's @whackfol. You might want to reach out to him.


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## Bill McNab

I am 1 hour West of Knoxville. Just over a year ago I moved from North Carolina. Muscadine rules in NC.
I am more interested in premium CA grapes.
I will try reaching out to the link you mentioned, thank you.


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## mainshipfred

Bill McNab said:


> I am 1 hour West of Knoxville. Just over a year ago I moved from North Carolina. Muscadine rules in NC.
> I am more interested in premium CA grapes.
> I will try reaching out to the link you mentioned, thank you.



They do get Cali grapes but I think from Lodi as well. I don't know if you consider Lodi a quality region.


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## Bill McNab

Not really sure where the quality grapes are located. I mentioned Lodi because I had Petite Sirah premium grapes from there last year, very good wine as it turned out.
What areas would you suggest as premium.
Thanks
Bill.


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## mainshipfred

With what I think is the case for home winemakers is we really don't know the quality we are going to get. I'm sure there are premium grapes from Lodi and that is where most of mine come from. When you search for the best wine regions in Cali Lodi never appears. So I was thinking Sierra Foothills, Sonoma, NAPA, Paso Robles, etc. I just wasn't sure what you were considering premium.


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## Bill McNab

I imagine that the Wineries get the best grapes first, from the East here we are always subject to what they want to ship. 
The premium grapes last year, PS, that I bought in Detroit looked excellent, fresh looking also. I was happy with them.
This year I am hoping that I can get them in Georgia, a CA shipper gave me the location. F Colavita and Son.
He even suggested that they could load my grapes last and drop them off as they make their way through TN.
I would have to crush and destem them myself, all 600 lbs of grapes.
I might have to buy a Crusher destemer which is about the same cost as driving to Detroit and back since I stay overnight and drive back the next day, 20 hours of driving though.


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## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> With what I think is the case for home winemakers is we really don't know the quality we are going to get. I'm sure there are premium grapes from Lodi and that is where most of mine come from. When you search for the best wine regions in Cali Lodi never appears. So I was thinking Sierra Foothills, Sonoma, NAPA, Paso Robles, etc. I just wasn't sure what you were considering premium.



As I've want to do sometimes, I took your regions and ran some searches on WA, the only criteria in the search was the region identified and wines produced that scored over 90, here are the results:

Lodi - 57 total wines
40 Zinfandel
6 Petite Sirah
4 Cab. Sav.
2 Syrah

Sierra Foothills - 1 Total wine
1 Syrah

Sonoma - 3107 Wines
1174 Pinot Noir
339 Zinfandel
248 Cab. Sav
168 Syrah
32 Petite Sirah
4 Sangiovese
3 Barbera

Napa - 2149 total wines
1234 Cab Sav
334 Chardonnay
69 Cab Franc
59 Syrah
41 Petite Sirah
29 Zinfandel

Paso Robles - 561 total wines
59 Syrah
35 Cab Sav
22 Grenache
11 Mourvedre
11 Petite Sirah
1 Barbera

Obviously I didn't list every varietal, just the more numerous and popular varietals. As you can probably see from the list, the location of "premium" grapes depends upon the varietals. If you want Syrah, Sonoma looks to be a good choice of the above areas, Pinot Noir - Sonoma, etc. Of course, these are only WA wines and there are many more rating services, and many more AVA's out there.

Searching by varietal instead and not limiting the AVA's, Barbera for instance, yields the following areas where 90+ wines were produced in the US:
California Central Coast - 10
Colombia Valley - 8
North Coast Cali - 5

For Syrah:

Central Coast (1,751)
Central Valley (2)
Columbia Gorge (1)
Columbia Valley (915)
Grand Valley (1)
Long Island (1)
North Coast (1,197)
Sierra Foothills (17)
Southern Oregon (27)
Willamette Valley (8)
Just an interesting way to play around with the rating services to see if any insight can be gained when you are trying to figure out in which AVA the best bang for your buck may lie for a particular varietal.......


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## mainshipfred

Bill McNab said:


> I imagine that the Wineries get the best grapes first, from the East here we are always subject to what they want to ship.
> The premium grapes last year, PS, that I bought in Detroit looked excellent, fresh looking also. I was happy with them.
> This year I am hoping that I can get them in Georgia, a CA shipper gave me the location. F Colavita and Son.
> He even suggested that they could load my grapes last and drop them off as they make their way through TN.
> I would have to crush and destem them myself, all 600 lbs of grapes.
> I might have to buy a Crusher destemer which is about the same cost as driving to Detroit and back since I stay overnight and drive back the next day, 20 hours of driving though.



For me buying that C/D would be a no brainer plus it's more fun doing it yourself.


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## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> As I've want to do sometimes, I took your regions and ran some searches on WA, the only criteria in the search was the region identified and wines produced that scored over 90, here are the results:
> 
> Lodi - 57 total wines
> 40 Zinfandel
> 6 Petite Sirah
> 4 Cab. Sav.
> 2 Syrah
> 
> Sierra Foothills - 1 Total wine
> 1 Syrah
> 
> Sonoma - 3107 Wines
> 1174 Pinot Noir
> 339 Zinfandel
> 248 Cab. Sav
> 168 Syrah
> 32 Petite Sirah
> 4 Sangiovese
> 3 Barbera
> 
> Napa - 2149 total wines
> 1234 Cab Sav
> 334 Chardonnay
> 69 Cab Franc
> 59 Syrah
> 41 Petite Sirah
> 29 Zinfandel
> 
> Paso Robles - 561 total wines
> 59 Syrah
> 35 Cab Sav
> 22 Grenache
> 11 Mourvedre
> 11 Petite Sirah
> 1 Barbera
> 
> Obviously I didn't list every varietal, just the more numerous and popular varietals. As you can probably see from the list, the location of "premium" grapes depends upon the varietals. If you want Syrah, Sonoma looks to be a good choice of the above areas, Pinot Noir - Sonoma, etc. Of course, these are only WA wines and there are many more rating services, and many more AVA's out there.
> 
> Searching by varietal instead and not limiting the AVA's, Barbera for instance, yields the following areas where 90+ wines were produced in the US:
> California Central Coast - 10
> Colombia Valley - 8
> North Coast Cali - 5
> 
> For Syrah:
> 
> Central Coast (1,751)
> Central Valley (2)
> Columbia Gorge (1)
> Columbia Valley (915)
> Grand Valley (1)
> Long Island (1)
> North Coast (1,197)
> Sierra Foothills (17)
> Southern Oregon (27)
> Willamette Valley (8)
> Just an interesting way to play around with the rating services to see if any insight can be gained when you are trying to figure out in which AVA the best bang for your buck may lie for a particular varietal.......



Good research, thanks


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## Bill McNab

Thank you Johnd,
Excellent research, many thanks.


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## sour_grapes

I also appreciated the "crosstabs," John. Thanks.


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## jgmann67

The wines are tasting very well. I might rack, hit them with kmeta and bottle in early June. The oak spiral was a great idea. I was thinking too about one last smack of tannin riche extra, but don’t want to keep futzing with it... we’re going on two years now.


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## ibglowin

Yea, that ship has sailed a long time ago. Time to bottle and move on. You will have more batches in the future to tweak if needed.


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## jgmann67

Bottling this weekend. Looking at about 110-115 750ml bottles. Going to do an ample amount of 375’s.


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## jgmann67

It was a back-breaker weekend. Bottled 4 carboys (3-6gals, 1-5gal). 

Bottle prep was the hardest part. Had a big cache of bottles I picked up in 2017. There’s a lot less now. Processing them took most of the day. 

There are about 105 750’s and 24 375’s. 

They’ll sit for a week, then we’ll capsule and label. From there. We wait...


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## sour_grapes

jgmann67 said:


> Bottle prep was the hardest part.



I really do dislike that part. I have 21 gallons waiting to bottle due to that barrier.


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## jgmann67

sour_grapes said:


> I really do dislike that part. I have 21 gallons waiting to bottle due to that barrier.



Unfortunately, no way to do it but to go through it. I’m glad it’s done. 

This wine is being split 3 ways - me (50%), my brother (40%) and my buddy (10%). I thinking I’ll let them capsule and label their own bottles.


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## jgmann67

Considering doing capsules today/tonight. Told my wife how much of a hassle it was lugging wine to the kitchen, boiling water, capsuling, then hauling everything right back down again.

“You need a hot plate/single burner down there.” She said...

“Yes, I do. That’s a great idea.” I said (having spent the previous 45 minutes online shopping for a good single burner for the wine room).

“I’ll get you one at Target... they can’t be too expensive.”

“You can get a decent one there for like $25. Thanks!” I replied (Knowing that the one they have is $5 cheaper). 

Oh, the games we play.


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## sour_grapes

My Big, Fat, Greek Wedding!


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## jgmann67




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## mainshipfred

You should just gotten this same price and to me easier.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wagner-Furno-300-Heat-Gun-0503059/206723935


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## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> You should just gotten this same price and to me easier.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wagner-Furno-300-Heat-Gun-0503059/206723935



Old habits die hard. I can use this to heat up the first water addition to my kits (to dissolve the bentonite), too.


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> You should just gotten this same price and to me easier.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wagner-Furno-300-Heat-Gun-0503059/206723935



I've thought about doing that. But I like using the boiling water, as the bit of steam on the bottle serves to clean it up pretty nicely. So I capsule, wipe, then label.


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## dmguptill

Boatboy24 said:


> I've thought about doing that. But I like using the boiling water, as the bit of steam on the bottle serves to clean it up pretty nicely. So I capsule, wipe, then label.


This is what I do too. I used to use an embossing gun my wife had for crafts and I found they make the capsules come out all crinkly. The boiling water gets em more even amd smooth.


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## wpt-me

I use a small tea kettle and then use the stream coming out the spout. It does a good job.

Bill


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## jgmann67

wpt-me said:


> I use a small tea kettle and then use the stream coming out the spout. It does a good job.
> 
> Bill



But how do you work with all that whistling?? LOL


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## cmason1957

jgmann67 said:


> But how do you work with all that whistling?? LOL


Whistling while you work makes the time go by faster I have found.


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## wpt-me

I agree with CMASON1957 !! Also I do small batches so not so bad.

Bill


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## jgmann67

Two labels for the same wine. The Jackass one is for my brother’s portion of the wine.

Mine - Pink Floyd song. His - Rolling Stones.


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## Mike Dunlap

We bottled a 30 gallon barrel yesterday. I used a gravity feed filler with an automatic shut off and heat gun for the caps.

The automatic filler works great for elevated barrels! The heat gum makes adding caps quick and easy. 

I had intended to bottle a 60 gallon barrel but the vacuum tube attachment on the Enomatic bottler broke as I was about to start. Add “fix it” to my to-do list.


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## jgmann67

Mike Dunlap said:


> We bottled a 30 gallon barrel yesterday. I used a gravity feed filler with an automatic shut off and heat gun for the caps.
> 
> The automatic filler works great for elevated barrels! The heat gum makes adding caps quick and easy.
> 
> I had intended to bottle a 60 gallon barrel but the vacuum tube attachment on the Enomatic bottler broke as I was about to start. Add “fix it” to my to-do list.



30 gallons = 12.5 cases. I did about 25 and felt beat up afterwards. Hopefully you had a better time at it.


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## jgmann67

Two months after bottling, and nearly two years since I dropped yeast on this wine, I sampled a bottle last night with my wife. No meaningful change in flavor since I tasted it at bottling time (not surprised). It does not offend me, but it is still far from my favorite. 

Next taste will be over the holidays. 

Lessons I'm taking from this experience:

* I think I'm done blending buckets of juice and grapes together. 
* Coinoculation EVERYTIME.
* Simpler is better.


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## jgmann67

I tried a sampler a week ago. Improved. Still a ways away from being ready. But I feel a bit better about where the wine is going.


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