# Newbie wants a vineyard!



## Travisty (Jul 28, 2008)

I've been reading through just about as much of these home vineyards posts and it has really sparked my interest to try to start my own small vineyard! I have maybe a 30' x 30' area of my lawn that seems to get sunnearly all day. Not a whole lot of room, but I hope I can grow enough vines to have enough grapes for 6+ gallons per year once established.


I will probably be asking many many questions as I proceed as I haven't never kept a garden or even house plants. Basically, I have no idea what color my thumb is yet.







I purchased and read "From Vines to Wines" already. Looks like my first big project will be to get the soil ready this year. The author says to dig out the soil 3' down and 3' across and fill it back in with the oil you dug out. Is that pretty standard? Sounds like a lot of digging. I'm willing to do it, but if it's overkill and not needed I wouldn't mind going a bit more shallower.



I have no idea what kind of soil I'm dealing with yet, but I'm sure I'll find out sooner rather than later.


I'm also curious about spacing of the vines. How close together can I plant them and still get quality fruit? Like I said, I don't have much room and I'd like to get the most I can out of what I have.


I plan on doing some tasting from some local wineries to see what I like. The only hybrid I've tasted recently enough to remember how I liked it was a couple Chambourcins. I really liked those but from what I've read, I'm a little far north to be planting that particular variety. I'm in Omaha, Nebraska by the way.


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## grapeman (Jul 28, 2008)

The first thing you want to do is forget that bit about digging the hole and refilling it! Unless you have pure clay, it is totally unnecessary and if the soil has that much clay in it, you would be making a big flower pot. Just about everything else isuseful information.


You will probably need to grow hybrids with your location, but there are some good ones to choose from. For a white, I might suggest Chardonel, Vignoles or LaCrescent. Reds are trickier. There are a zillion of them and they have a lot of variation to taste and other properties. If you go with hybrids you will want about 6 foot in-row spacing. Space between rows depends on what you have for equipent and trellis type used. We will get into that more later.


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## AlFulchino (Jul 28, 2008)

you also will want to line up as much equipment as you think necessary prior to the first vine being planted....and consider, since this is a home situation, what the likely every day traffic will be like..i.e. children and pets since weed control, fungicide and possibly insecticides are noe in your very real future


buon fortuna


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## Travisty (Jul 28, 2008)

Excellent, I was hoping you'd say that about the digging! 


So how would I go about preparing the soil? Do I just get a tiller and go to town in rows? Should I leave grass in between the rows? Also, when is a good time to start prepping it? I was thinking fall before it freezes.


Thanks for the suggestions on vines. I generally prefer reds soI was hoping to start with a red variety, though I might go half and half. It seems that DeChaunac, St. Croix, St. Vincent, andFrontenac are some of the reds being grown and vinted at a couple local wineries. I'm not sure what those all taste like yet. I guess I'll have to start visiting and tasting soon.






Al, what equipment should I expect to need for a small little home vineyard like mine? That's a real good point about traffic. I don't have kids myself, but we do have some neighborhood teens who run through every once in a while. Maybe I'll construct a simple fence around the vineyard.


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## AlFulchino (Jul 28, 2008)

hi...i am just thinking about little ones eating vines you have just sprayed....many items such as powdered milk for PM and even organic JMS Stylet Oil wont be a real issue...but fungicides have a re-entry period


equipment needs will be basic but just the same very necessary


pruners, tying tape, stakes and some people swear by grow tubes...i haveno use for them at all....you will need one good sprayer but i recommend dedicated sprayers for (1) weed control so you dont have to spend time making sure everything is cleaned out, and get a second sprayer for your disease and insecticide sprays...believe it or not people have on occasion put some round up on their vines...it happens to the best....and you might consider a third unit if you decide to use sulphur products on your vines...my main aim in talking about more than one spray unit is it totally eliminates the worry about cross contamination.


additionally, of course the preference should be to have your trellis up and make sure you adequately anticipate your crop load and wind conditions of whatever the vine total turns out to be....some simple math will go a long way...and the wind will catch you by suprise....your vines will be tied to the trellis wire and stakes and believe me they will act just like sails when the wind catches them


also, i keep come disinfectant lying around to mix w water when pruning the vines because it is easy to spread one disease from plant to plant...with just a few vines it may seem a nuisance for you to carry the container around when snipping away, but its a small price to pay...its like always watching over the children....things may sometimes seem mundane but you never know what you protected them from just by being there 


let us know what varieties you choose....i have 14 myself and will hopefully pull a small personal crop ths year for the first time..next yr will be commercial i hope...right now the vines are literally swimming in one half of my vineyard...we have had over ten inches in teh last six days...not one day has been rainfree...


so one last item to consider is your drainage..i dont know how long you have lived at your site so you may or may not have a full understanding of its drainage patterns.. (hopefully you have a great little gentle slope..check out the last twenty years of rainfall data to see what you worst case scenario is...say it rained 10 inches in 1992 in a one week period...you might try duplicating this w a garden hose...its a small price to pay


lastly for now...think about drip irrigation..even if its just a hose connected to something like toro blue stripe drip....and you will want to hang it off of a lower wire so the emitters dont get clogged up w roots or bugs




once again...good luck!


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## OilnH2O (Jul 30, 2008)

Travisty, here's some more food for thought. I did the same as you, but with a 12'x50' patch of my yard. If you have a SWMBO I would definitely suggest you consider _her_ desires as well. If she likes a glass of "white" then insure you have a willing, even if not an active, partner.



That might mean planting enough vines for a batch of white as well.

Depending on your slope, aspect, drainage, etc., you might get away with digging out your sod in just the rows you will plant your vines, leaving a grassy walkway. The largest "equipment" I have is a Toro Pony that I used to prepare the beds, but now it is mostly hand tools. 

I have underground sprinklers for my whole yard, and while that was fine when it was all grass, I'm now trying to reconfigure so that the sprinklers do NOT hit what is now the vinyard. I'm planning to put in a drip system there. If you have something similar, you might want to do that ahead of time. Sometimes, it is easier to run your drip line along the first catch wire before you have the vines in. The same consideration is for any sort of fertilizer or weed treatment you might use on your lawn. You probably don't want it on your vines and, again depending on your slope, it could affect your vines underground.

You should also at least have all your posts in this year -- they will settle during the winter and be more solid for next year when you put in your vines. If you have room to anchor the end-posts, do so. The wires will exert tremendous power without the anchors. You'll have plenty of time to think about whether you want to propogate cuttings, buy bare-root vines, etc. while you're doing all this! (Don't forget to call a utility locator if you are going deep with your posts -- it might only be a backyard vinyard, but you don't want to auger into the neighborhood phone lines or gas pipe!)





You mentioned local vinyards. While scamming a tasting is fine, get to the owner or vinyard manager and ask to go into their vinyards. They may import juice from as far away as California and blend it into their wine, in addition to what they grow locally. Ask them! You can get more solid input from them about what works/grows in Omaha than guessing along with all of us about your situation (no offense to anyone here -- you'll find Rich, Bilbo, NW and others are wonderful resources!). Don't be afraid to ask about varieties, what treatments are needed, do they spray, and if so, with what? They know what you need to know! And remember, this is truly an instance of "you don't know what you don't know!"



Don't hesitate to ask to observe or even help at critical times, like off-season pruning or harvest.

Ask also about other local resources -- the county agent in Omaha probably is sitting around wondering how many new houses are getting "farmed" this year rather than worrying about crop loads... and check out Creighton and UNO as well -- there may be some great info resources there (Rich works with Cornell and I'm sure he'd echo that).

And, keep us posted. As you've probably read before, pictures are great -- you can start with one of the site! Heck, we even like pictures of where grapes _are going to be_! Good luck!


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## grapeman (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm glad I waited for others to reply. Thanks guys for all your typing and input. Travisty it is all useful information. As far as how to prepare the soil- is your site specific to one location. If you live in a suburban residential area you may have little choice. Before tilling anything if you are certain of the location, apply some roundup to kill all the grasses. Some grasses are very persistant and if you just till it up, you just encourage further growth. Once the grass is dead- till the rows about 24-36 inches wide. Get a soil test from your local Extension office or Soil Conservation Office. Make any adjustemnts to the soil per recommendations. Let them know you are planting grapes. It makes a difference. Till the soil about once a month until the end of the growing season. At that time you could install the trellis posts. The varieties you choose will determine plant spacing, but if you set your posts 24 feet apart, you can plant 3 between thm at 8 foot spacing or 4 at 6 or 6 at 4 so it give a lot of flexibility. You will need some sort of anchoring system. For limited spaces, an H-brace system works well. 









As you make some decisions we will continue to guide you, so GOOD LUCK.


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## AlFulchino (Jul 30, 2008)

i dont know why i didnt think of this before...but any holes that will be say 18 inches deep or more for trellis's etc may give you a thought to call a company like Dig Safe or whatever you have in your state..in case of underground wires/gas lines etc





under normal conditions iwould not raise this issue but since you mentioned the depth of three feet and such it may be wise to consider utilities that may be underground...
another thought comes to mind..if something like atrazine has been sprayed on your land with in the past seven years ( i think it is) then you cant plant grapes....someone correct me if i am wrong


i second the request for pictures!


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## Travisty (Jul 31, 2008)

I have to say you guys are awesome! I don't have a digital camera at this time, so camera phone pictures will have to do for now. I'll try and get some tonight of the site I'm looking at.


Good point about locating underground pipes and such before digging! Our electric is above ground, but I certainly don't want to be responsible for killing everyone's gas or water, not to mentionthe immediate hazards of hitting a gas line!!


My site is pretty much specific to one area. It's the only area that gets sun pretty much all day. I would love to use much more of my lawn, but an apple tree, my garage, and my house all shade the rest of the lawn on the east side in the afternoon. On the west side I have less room though I could get one row in, but I believe my neighbor who's lawn butt's up to mine there uses chemicals that I don't think the grapes would appreciate too much.


So any time is a good time to start prepping the soil, and then I should set the posts after the growing season is done? Where do you guys get your end and lineposts?


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## AlFulchino (Jul 31, 2008)

plenty of online souces such as Ken Cove and Orchard Supply..i will let the others chime in because there are so many suppliers that my head will start spinning  google away


anyway the reason i am writing is to addtwo more thing to watch for....your *neighbors* figure into both......lets start w what *they* spray....if they spray any herbicided for example be aware that drift happens sooooo darn easy and the grape vines are very susceptible


and then what *you* spray matters to them.....you might start by checking into when *they* leave for work because even if you spray organic things there are *some* people who may hassle you


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## reisjdmd (Jul 31, 2008)

hi travisty
you've gotten excellent advice from exprienced growers. now, i will share my experience based on my third year of a south central wisconsin 40 vine setup. we had lots of frost damage last winter, so only 10 of 40 vines are producing grapes, but they are doing great. swenson red; marechal foch and frontenac. way loaded with large clusters. will put up nets, soon, for birds. also wasp traps.
preparation for our soil was to have the sod taken away and the underlying soil turned over. lots of clay, but the ag department says all nutrients ok except low on nitrogen. good drainage with slope to east.
plant either i year old vines or shoots. either works. we did both.grow tubes unnecessary. use a hose and bucket to water themthe first year, but after that the roots are deep enough to handle things without irrigation. we've had NO rain in 3 1/2 weeks of 82+ weather,and i see no wilting leaves. don't know where you are located, though. could be semi-arid.
mine oriented east to west because of prevailing winds. this allows rapid drying after rains. i will lose about 10% of yield with this orientation. however,i have never sprayed these vines with anything. this year, about 8 leaves have black spot [so far so good]; no downy mildew, and two leaves had phylloxera. i suppose if i have to spray i will, but no need to yet. no fertilizer added in three years. will add organic kelp nitrogen next year. i use the high cordon system and keep everything at least 3 feet off of the ground for quickdrying. generic irish spring hung at both ends of each row have kept all deer away. 
also, i have planted tomatos and eggplants under the vines and all plants seem to love one another. pole beans are rising up the end posts and support wires. cucumbers are crawling under one vine. so far no problems at all. i did the same last year and found no problems. lots of veggies.
finally, it seems to me that people have been making wine for about 6,000 years, so how hard can it be to grow grapes? now, i am talking about ordinary home grown, not chateau lafite. i make no claim to anything but ordinary 100% organic grapes for a vin ordinaire. i have yet to make any wine, but this fall, hopefully, we will. i will do it exactly as my grandfather did, except he stored the wine in a barrel and i will use bottles.
personally, i would not overthink this. you are still young. letyour soil tell you what kind of grapes it loves and what you need to do to get your wine. if you waste a year or two, so what. plant ten different varieties and see what happens.enjoy your vineyard. experiment and have fun. god gave us the grape for spiritual and mental enjoyment, and who am i toargue.


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## AlFulchino (Jul 31, 2008)

"generic irish spring hung at both ends of each row have kept all deer away."


wow thats a new one one me...and i am NOT belittling the idea.....if this has been working for you i think i will give it a try BEFORE i ever do the fence.....thus far on two growing seasons I havenot encountered deer and i am very suprised that i have not because i do not want to put up an ugly fence....so i thank you for sharing....let me ask you this...have you yourself actually seen deer tracks go up to the edge of your vineyard? or seen the deer in person go up and stop?


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## grapeman (Jul 31, 2008)

Yes bars of Irish Spring or just about any other fragrant soap works. I used to hang hotel bars of soap on paper clip hangers by the hundrds every year on new apple trees and the deer would stay away. The deer pressure was very heavy and without the bars, the deer would chew them mercilessly. 


Travisty make sure the neighbor does not spray 2-4d. That is very toxic to grapes thousands of feet away. It is the gas vapors that do the damage.


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## Travisty (Jul 31, 2008)

Shoot, I'm not sure if my neighbor would even know what he has put down. He has a lawncare company do all his weed control and fertilizing for him.


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## grapeman (Jul 31, 2008)

Have the neighbor check with the lawncare company and ask if they use it in any of their products. They must disclose it if they do if asked.


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## OilnH2O (Jul 31, 2008)

Travisty,

For posts, you can always try Lowes/Home Depot for 4" or 6" round wood posts or, if you have (and I can't imagine Omaha has forgotten ALL its heritage) a farm and ranch supply store, ask there. If you get "treated" posts make sure they are treated with something safe for putting "in a garden." And, you don't need the kind of wooden posts that are pointed on one end, unless you plan on using a pile-driver to pound them in -- not likely in a neighborhood lawn, I'm guessing.

Intermediate posts can be the metal, pound in type fence posts or you can use wood as well. You can usually borrow a "pounder" for those posts -- don't go buy one! No. 12 guage wire is what I've used - and it can come from L/HD or the ranch supply store as well. 

Soon you'll be on your way to "earning" a "PHD !"


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## grapeman (Jul 31, 2008)

So oil is a "PHD" a Post Hole Digger? If you have a Tractor Supply nearby, they carry all kinds of posts- wood and metal.


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## swillologist (Jul 31, 2008)

Landscape timbers work pretty wellalso and you can find them on sell now and then.


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## Travisty (Jul 31, 2008)

Here are the pictures. Camera phone quality but I think they do an okay job of showing the property.




From the north:










From the south:








From the west:








So basically I'm looking at using everything between the driveway and the street and between the alley on the north side to where the tree begins to throw shade.


Tractor Supply Co. is a great idea! I did a quick look on the website and it appears they have posts and wire as well as other stuff as well I assume. And we have a store here locally!




*edit* I forgot to include this picture of my house from google maps.



*Edited by: Travisty *


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## AlFulchino (Jul 31, 2008)

wow...gonna be an eye stopper....get the gun rack unlocked, them grapes are gonna be tempting....forget the 4 legged deer or the winged friends....you got twolegged animals to worry about!


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## Travisty (Jul 31, 2008)

Haha, true! I added a google maps picture just after you posted that Al. FYI


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## AlFulchino (Jul 31, 2008)

hey thats cool....google did a street view of my location a few years back but stopped before so you can just barely see the land and then from the other direction of the street they came up short for some strange reason there is about a 1000 feet missing section in their street view


****


anyway get grandma out on the porch w the double barrel for night watch...and start a neighborhood watch group


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## Travisty (Jul 31, 2008)

Yeah, google hasn't got enough of mid-town Omaha in the streetview function yet to have my place. But the overhead shot works pretty well.







I might have to start sleeping outside with my cousin's saw-off 12 gauge in a couple years! haha


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## AlFulchino (Aug 1, 2008)

ok that is right you are in omaha...check out the roster for the ball team at oroyals.com


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## Travisty (Aug 1, 2008)

Hey, look at that, there's a Jeff Fulchino on the roster! A relation of yours I assume?


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## OilnH2O (Aug 1, 2008)

Travisty, Appleman is right - PHD = Post Hole Digger -- if you've got rocks, I think you should get an extra gold star!


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## AlFulchino (Aug 1, 2008)

Travisty said:


> Hey, look at that, there's a Jeff Fulchino on the roster! A relation of yours I assume?




son.....he has been hitting 97 lately...not sure where it is coming from ....


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## Travisty (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, last friday some of us went to a local vineyard (Soaring Wings in Springfiled, NE) for a wine tasting. They only make three dry reds, Chambourcin, DeChaunac, and St. Croixand only one of those, the DeChaunacwas available for tasting. The St. Croix was sold out and the Chambourcin was not yet ready. I thought the DeChaunac was pretty decent. I'm horrible at describing taste and I didn't make any notes so i can't say exactly what it tasted like. They had a sweet DeChaunac that I did not care for. I'm not a big sweet wine person though. I was dissapointed that I couldn't try the other two dry reds as I was very curious what they would produce. I've tasted a couple different Chambourcins before and liked them quite a bit.








Of their whites, I tried a dry LaCrosse and a sweet Vignoles. Did not care for the LaCrosse. It seemed to lack flavor. If I recall correctly it didn't seem to have much acidity either. I was very surprised by the sweet Vignoles though. Like I said earlier, I don't usually care for sweet wines (except ports



) but this was very good! Lots of fruity flavor and not sickly sweet.


They had a few different blends too, but I'm not sure what was in all the blends and it was so busy that we didn't get a good chance to ask a lot of questions.


So, I'm still in the air as to what I want to plant next year. I'm thinking 6 of a red and 6 of a white. I have some time to decide right? Hopefully, I'll be able to make some time to get the ground ready in the next couple weeks too. Just need to mark off my rows (after making sure it's cool to dig there!), kill the grass with round up and start tilling.


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## Travisty (Aug 30, 2008)

Well, I tilled up the ground today and I have another question. I have all this tilled up dead grass laying here on top of my tilled soil now. Should I rake it up or leave it where it is to dry up and let the tiller do it's work on the dead grass as well as the soil when I till again in a month or so?


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## grapeman (Aug 30, 2008)

Let me narrow this down for you- You can either till it in when you till again, or rake it up and get rid of it!



Did that clear it up for you? 


Actually it doesn't make a lot of difference. As long as you used Roundup to kill it for tilling, it really doesn't make any difference at all. If it is definitely dead, it won't hurt to leave it there, but it doesn't look as neat laying there.


At the wine tasting, it isn't surprising you didn't care for the LaCrosse if it was dry. A number of the white hybrids are very good if made correctly and harvested at the right time. In your area, if you let them hang too long, the acid levels get too low and they lack a good balancing acid. They also need just a bit of residual sugar to bring the fruitiness out. If there isn't enough acid then they are too sweet. They need to be picked when pH is about 3.1-3.2 and TA is about 0.9- 1.1 g/l. The touch of residual sugar(1.002-1.004) balances this higher acid and leaves them crisp and fruity.
LaCrosse doesn't have quite as much flavor as some of the others. From what I have done St. Pepin(apricots and apples), ES 6-16-30 (pineapples), Petite Amie and LaCrscent (both very fruity and crisp) all have more flavors than LaCrosse.


Where you are for reds, you have a lot of choices- how about St. Croix, Noiret, and Corot Noir. If you want a bit higher acid one to work with, there is Frontenac.*Edited by: appleman *


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## AlFulchino (Aug 30, 2008)

check out Brianna for white...even if its just for eating


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## Travisty (Aug 30, 2008)

Well, I'm not sure I was able to kill off all the grass with the RoundUp, so I guess I'd better get out there and start raking.












I was thinking of planting chardonel for a white. I tried a chardonel from a NE vineyard (Whiskey Run Creek) and liked it. I also tried their frontenac. I thought it was good. It was a tiny bit sweeter, probably because of the high acidity? They also have a marechal foch I want to try. There's so many reds out there I haven't tried yet that I think eventually, I'll just have to choose one of the few I have tried and liked and just go with it. I still need to try a St. Croix and I'd like to try a Marquette. I'm looking for a red that can make a full bodied dry wine with good tannins. I've read that Marquette has emerged as a great grape to make what I'm looking for.


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## grapeman (Aug 30, 2008)

I don't want to burst anyones bubbles, but I am not convinced of the quality of wine that Marquette makes yet. I made 9 gallons of it last year and actually bottled 6 gallons of it today. It may be my wine making techniques but I am less than impressed with it. It could have been a bit riper last year when we picked them. It tastes a bit green to me. The tannins are so-so and it really doesn't have much for cherry flavors yet. The oak I added gives it some character, but other than that, after 10 months it really doesn't do it for me. I had a Marquette from the Finger Lakes a cuple weeks ago that was fair. I have 50 vines in myself of them hoping that they will be better than what I made last year. The whites I made on the other hand are all knock your socks off good! I bottled 5 of them today and they are all as good as any commercial white I have had. If I am not typing very good, it is because I had 7 very hearty glassfulls of samples today while bottling.


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## Wade E (Aug 30, 2008)

Do you have any Cayuga appleman as that seems to be the reigning white here in Ct. and its 1 of my favorite whites.


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## grapeman (Aug 30, 2008)

Yes Wade I have about 75 Cayuga White grape vines. I made 6 gallons of it last year and it is one of the wines I have. I need to bottle it next time. It is about the same as the LaCrosse- pretty good , but not as good as the others- believe it or not! I am getting really excited by the others. They seem to be the wines that will define the Champlain Valley. Nice Fruity White wines like Riesling only on steroids! They are a mixed dring on a wine glass all by themselves!


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## Wade E (Aug 30, 2008)

Glad you have wines of your own that you like so much grown in your own property. Quite a feat!


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## fivebk (Jan 15, 2009)

Hi Travis , My name is Bob . I found this forum a couple of months ago and have really enjoyed it. I live about 55 miles south of Omaha. I know it's been awhile since this post but I thought I would introduce myself and throw my two cents worth in .There is a winery in Springfield Ne called soaring wings . By now you have probably been there. The owner / winemakers name is Jim Shaw. He is a very nice and knowlegable person and is always glad to answer any questions ( My wife and I visit there alot ).I too am starting a small home vineyard this spring. I have started a thread on this topic my vineyard project. It's nice to know that someone on this forum is that close to my area. 

BOB


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## Travisty (Jan 15, 2009)

Hi Bob, it is nice to see others from this area on the forum!


I do know Soaring Wings. I've only been there once though. I'm sure we will be out there more this coming year.  Their Vignoles dessert wine is what has convinced me to grow Vingoles as my white in my tiny little home vineyard I'm planting this spring. It's was a tasty dessert wine.


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## fivebk (Jan 15, 2009)

My wife very much enjoys the vignole wine thats why I too will be planting them this spring


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## grapeman (Jan 15, 2009)

I would rate Vignoles close to some of the other whites I grow- each has their own unique flavors and qualities. Others are Chardonel, NY76.0844.24, St. Pepin, Petite Amie, LaCrescent, and Frontenac Gris. I have others with plenty of flavor and other qualities to contribute.


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## fivebk (Jan 15, 2009)

Appleman , I am planting Frontenac Gris this spring what can I expect from this grape. flavor , body etc.


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## grapeman (Jan 15, 2009)

It actually makes a very pleasant tasting white wine- actually pink. It has good body, slight muscat flavor with spice and some fruit. Acidity is fairly high so figure on making this one at least semi-sweet. Brix and culture comparable to regular Frontenac. I look forward to Frontenac Blanc at some point in the future. Some are breeding for it, but it already exists as a sport mutation. Pretty good choice with the Front Gris.


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## fivebk (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the info . Now I am really looking forward to getting started this spring


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## AlFulchino (Jan 15, 2009)

i have my first frontenac gris sitting in a small carboy right now...it is needing more time....nice color wine so far...vine itself is vigorous....may still need to tame down the acid and sweeten some


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