# Help with first batch ever....CoNfUsEd!



## PappyCamas (Jul 21, 2016)

Hello folks,

I am new to the forum and winemaking. After going to the local wine/brewers shop We thought we had a handle on the process but are now stumped as what to do. So here is what we have;

Blueberry, Blackberry and Loganberry mix. Approx. 2.5 gals

My wife works at a local farm and get all the berries free because they were a few days old and most consumers wants fresh berries.

We put all the berries in a nylon bag and crushed them to get the juice, we added the sugar, Pectic Enzyme, yeast nutrient and Potassium Bisulfite (camden tablet equivalent) to the mix. Initial hydrometer was 1.080

Let that sit for 24 hours then added the yeast (Vintners Havest VR21)

Sealed it up with an airlock and let it sit for 7 days.

Here's the problem, there never was signs that the mix was fermenting, i.e. no bubbles in the airlock. I checked it today and the hydrometer is still at 1.080 but during the acid test, it took 10cc of Sodium Hydroxide before the juice would turn to a dark brown/greyish color the test said to look for.

Ok, I get that the acid level is too high. So what can I do to bring that down? And because of the high Acid level, did that kill off all the yeast?

Kinda stumped on how to proceed and certainly don't want to waist this batch as most of the berries around here are done growing, oddly enough.

Than you in advance for any help you may offer!

Pappy


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## Scooter68 (Jul 21, 2016)

Well overly acidic wine must can stop, slow or prevent fermentation -yes But - Your numbers aren't making sense to me - Hopefully someone else will check in and give you guidance. You will need to be able to provide more details of the test method you used, such as sample size and the strength of you Sodium Hydroxide solution.

One thing I would suggest is to ditch the airlock for now. During primary the yeast needs oxygen to get established so a cloth cover over a fermentation bucket is the preferred method unless you are going to uncover and stir well several times a day. After the yeast gets going you'll know it and then you can cover it back up an use the airlock 
Finally given an initial SG of 1.080 is going to yield a fairly low alcohol wine - I'd suggest that as you adjust the acidity of the must that you also increase the SG to 1.090 or higher.

(Removed comment about ml vs cc - my mistake - I do metric only when forced.


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## PappyCamas (Jul 21, 2016)

Scooter68 said:


> I use a pH meter but in a quick look at the sodium hydroxide test process they talk in terms of ml not cc.



These are actually the same. One is metric and the other is SI. Upon reading the material included in the test kit (acid), the Sodium Hydroxide has the following info, none of which I know anything about 

Sodium Hydroxide 0.2N
pH: 14

Hopefully that will help.

I followed the instructions from the brew shop to a tee and this is where I am at, so I am open to suggestions on how to precede!


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## cintipam (Jul 21, 2016)

Hi and welcome

You did a lot of things right. And I've been there trying to make sense of those vials and color changes. Almost worthless in my book.

I've never used VR21 but did just read up on it, and it sounds like a good choice. If you got no action it is possible that the yeast was poorly stored and is no longer viable. If you have access to a diff yeast or fresher VR21 I'd give that a try. And Scooter68 is right, no airlock till approx 1.010. Cover the bucket with a clean cloth wrung out with Kmeta, stir must well a couple times a day after you start to see some action. 

Pam in cinti


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## dorfie (Jul 22, 2016)

Ok, I'll try to explain the acidity question, hope I don't confuse you more. 
If you did the titration as most kits explain, then you withdrew 15 ml of must, added the phenolphthalein indicating solution and swirled to mix the two. Then you added the NaOH solution until you reached a point where an addition of another drop of solution results in no change in color. 
To find how much acid is in your wine you use the Normality (in this case .2).For each ml of NaOH that was used to reach the end point it equals the same amount of acid in grams/litter. 
So in your situation you used 10 ml of NaOH with a .2 N solution, so then 10*.2=2 g/l. Which is really high. I would try to retest, if it is a dark wine it is easy to overshoot the end point and get a reading that is too high. You can dilute the wine with distilled water if that help to see, just don't add more water than 5x the test volume of wine you withdrew.
To adjust the acidity you can do two things: dilute, or react some of the acid with a base.	
I'll explain dilution first. You first have to find your TA. So if you test your wine and find you have a TA value of 1.2 and you want a TA of .8 you would take the TA of your wine and multiply it by the amount of litters of wine you have, then divide that number by your desired TA to find the amount of Liters of wine you can make with the already present acid. I adjust my numbers to work into a nice end volume by adding acid blend if needed. 
TA (g/L)*L=grams of acid in wine
(grams of acid in wine)/(Desired TA)=Liters of wine 

You can also go the more common route and dilute, then test and add acid back, but I find if you test the pure juice and dilute to the correct acid level you can make a more flavorful wine. 
For reacting some of the acid with a base you would add a base, calcium carbonate for pre-fermentation and potassium bicarbonate for post fermentation. Adding the amount needed to lower the acid according to your TA. 
Hope I didn’t confuse you! With your situation I agree you need to let the wine have oxygen for primary fermentation. I would retest the wines acid. What was your recipe? How much of each fruit, any water added, or sugar?


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## Scooter68 (Jul 22, 2016)

I would add that while those who use it frequently (the titration method) find it easy to do, but I prefer an electronic pH meter since I don;t have to use any other chemicals to test and can even return my sample to the carboy. They can be had for under $20.00 and are not hard to maintain at all. (Even when I recalibrated it was only off perhaps .05 at worst meaning my pH was actually 3.40 instead of 3.35 and I wouldn't sweat that much variation )
Actual use only requires investing in a gallon of distilled water for prepping the meter before use and a quick rinse before storing.


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## dorfie (Jul 22, 2016)

Very good point scooter, Just curious, what pH meter do you have? I am interested in possibly purchasing one, at least someday, and I don't know what brand has worked for people. I mean I know what brands I use in the lab, but those are quite far out of my price range ha.


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## Stressbaby (Jul 22, 2016)

Scooter68 said:


> I would add that while those who use it frequently (the titration method) find it easy to do, but I prefer an electronic pH meter since I don;t have to use any other chemicals to test and can even return my sample to the carboy. They can be had for under $20.00 and are not hard to maintain at all. (Even when I recalibrated it was only off perhaps .05 at worst meaning my pH was actually 3.40 instead of 3.35 and I wouldn't sweat that much variation )
> Actual use only requires investing in a gallon of distilled water for prepping the meter before use and a quick rinse before storing.



But you are measuring pH, not TA if you are just using the meter. Different measurements. You can measure TA with a meter but you wouldn't want to return the sample to the carboy because it has the chemicals in it.


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## Julie (Jul 22, 2016)

Welcome to WineMakingTalk 

And thank you for using a hydrometer! So many newbies don't and it just causes problems. I would dilute your juice with some sugar water. The fruit you are using can take some water without diluting the flavor profile and by having sugar in the water you are not diluting the alcohol. I would try to keep your sg at 1.080 or close to that. See if you can't get your TA around .55% - .80%. And do not seal up the bucket, stir every day, when sg is around 1.010 either rack to a carboy or snap the lid down and add an airlock.


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## bobbop (Jul 22, 2016)

Maybe add a little energizer to the must. And how warm or cool is it? Ambient temperatures will obviously affect the must temperature a d must temperature will effect fermentation. Not sure but the kmeta may not have had time to lose its effectiveness before you added your yeast which would kill it but again im not sure im a newbie also!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 23, 2016)

"But you are measuring pH, not TA if you are just using the meter. Different measurements. You can measure TA with a meter but you wouldn't want to return the sample to the carboy because it has the chemicals in it."

Yes, I understand the difference between TA and pH but for the purposes of protecting the wine in the long run and as far as how yeast friendly or hostile a wine must is I think (may be wrong of course) that the overall pH will be the safest test.
Secondly the acid contents (types of acid) are likely to change as the wine ferments and a later as it ages. So unless you test for each type of acid (Is there a test for each?) how do you know which acid is strongest in your wine. (I know I've seen charts that tell which type of acid is dominant in various fruits and that would be a good guide) I would suggest that tasting your wine as it ferments and ages is your best bet. Regardless of what the numbers say, if the wine tastes like battery acid who cares. (And I did have one wine that was flat tasting and it was a disaster in several ways -fortunately it was only a 1gal batch) 

To Dorfie - This is the meter I bought but there are many that look identical - guess I just took my chances and made sure that it came with an initial set of buffer solutions to calibrate it. (Etekcity High Accuracy Pocket Size Handheld pH Meter Pen Tester, Yellow) I soak it in distilled water for a few minutes before testing, Test, rinse with tap water then rinse again with distilled water, dry it and put it back in the case. So far I've re-calibrated once and it wasn't off enough to get worried about - it's easy to reset it.
Most are about $20.00 as I said and I but through Amazon so I don't have problems if the thing turns out bad.

Lesson on TA vs pH: http://www.eckraus.com/blog/difference-between-ph-and-titratable-acidity-in-wine

(Getting really wordy tonight) 
Learning about the different acid type and their affects is a deep subject and so far I've been fortunate not to have any serious issues - BUT I haven't made a wide variety of wine types either. I'm just speaking from about 1 years experience and perhaps 15-16 batches of wine in that time. For me the pH meter has been a big help and easy to use - so I'm able to do the basic pH test without destroying my samples with chemical and do it as often as I rack if I want. 

Would be happy to hear from the more experienced hands on this - the article I listed suggested that as long as you test periodically either test will work.

Wines made to date: Blueberry, Blackberry, Black Raspberry, Peach, Apple, Strawberry, Black Currant, and Apricot.


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## NorCal (Jul 23, 2016)

I would make a proper yeast starter and at this point use 1118 to get the job done. Once the starter is in active fermentation, add it to the must. Be sure the must has the proper nutrient. As others have said, keep it covered with a towel and stir daily. Good luck.


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## Tnuscan (Jul 23, 2016)

dorfie said:


> Ok, I'll try to explain the acidity question, hope I don't confuse you more.
> If you did the titration as most kits explain, then you withdrew 15 ml of must, added the phenolphthalein indicating solution and swirled to mix the two. Then you added the NaOH solution until you reached a point where an addition of another drop of solution results in no change in color.
> To find how much acid is in your wine you use the Normality (in this case .2).For each ml of NaOH that was used to reach the end point it equals the same amount of acid in grams/litter.
> So in your situation you used 10 ml of NaOH with a .2 N solution, so then 10*.2=2 g/l. Which is really high. I would try to retest, if it is a dark wine it is easy to overshoot the end point and get a reading that is too high. You can dilute the wine with distilled water if that help to see, just don't add more water than 5x the test volume of wine you withdrew.
> ...



Hi @dorfie

I think the "2 g/l" should actually be 1 g/l. I think you have confused .1 and .2 solutions. Am I correct or am I misunderstanding your calculation?


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## Tnuscan (Jul 23, 2016)

Hello @PappyCamas

I think you could do as Julie suggested and/or toss some 1118 into it. I'm thinking the yeast was weak. The acid is high but I've fermented at 1.2 TA and finished dry, and I used 71B-1122.

If the wine is for your own enjoyment and you haven't got it going, diluting with sugar/water (simple syrup) is the quickest/easiest/cheapest solution. Keep an eye your SG level then re-pitch some strong yeast and let er go.


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## dorfie (Jul 24, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Hi @dorfie
> 
> I think the "2 g/l" should actually be 1 g/l. I think you have confused .1 and .2 solutions. Am I correct or am I misunderstanding your calculation?



If I understood the OP they said that they titrated with a .2 N solution, so then for each mL of NaOH used it would equal .2 g/L of acid. I was also a bit turned around as I have always used a .1 N solution, but I do know that there are .2 solutions in kits and stuff sometimes. Does this make sense/sound correct?


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## Tnuscan (Jul 24, 2016)

dorfie said:


> If I understood the OP they said that they titrated with a .2 N solution, so then for each mL of NaOH used it would equal .2 g/L of acid. I was also a bit turned around as I have always used a .1 N solution, but I do know that there are .2 solutions in kits and stuff sometimes. Does this make sense/sound correct?



Thanks. I have used both by different manufacturers. Here are the instructions. 

*0.10 Normal

Note the amount of regent used to obtain the color change (NOT the amount left in the syringe! ) This amount in cc's, multiplied by .25, gives acid content in percent tartaric. For example , if 2.4cc was used, acid content is .60% tartaric.


0.2N

Each 1cc of Sodium Hydroxide neutralizer required to attain the color change indicates .1% of acid expressed as Tartaric. Example: if 5cc neutralizer is needed to attain the end point color change, the acid is .5% *,......{.50% ?}


So if 10cc is used using 0.10 you would have 2.5 g/l TA 

If 10cc is used using 0.2 you would have 1.0 g/l TA

So if I wanted this wine to have a .60% TA, using 0.01 N @ 10cc. I would be 1.90% over my goal of .60% TA.

If I used 0.2 N @ 10cc. I would only be .40% over my goal of .60% TA.

*"with a .2 N solution, so then for each mL of NaOH used it would equal .2 g/L of acid." {QUOTE}* ==== It should equal .1 g/l of acid====

Am I correct, or am I confused ?


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## ibglowin (Jul 24, 2016)

You have two variables here.

1) Strength or normality of your NaOH

2) Sample size (wine)


TA (g/L) = ml NaOH x normality NaOH x 0.075 X 1000
------------------------------------------------------
Sample Volume (ml)


So if you used a 5ml wine sample and it took 6ml of 0.1N NaOH to reach the endpoint the TA would be:

(6ml) x 0.1N x 0.075 x 1000/ (5ml) = 9 g/L or 0.9% TA (Titratable Acid) not Tartaric Acid


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## Tnuscan (Jul 24, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> You have two variables here.
> 
> 1) Strength or normality of your NaOH
> 
> ...



Thanks! 

I understand now, and yes, I know,... it's about time. 

By the way I wasn't saying TA = Tartaric Acid. *".1% of acid expressed as Tartaric".* was in their instructions. 

Thanks again!


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## Tnuscan (Jul 25, 2016)

@PappyCamas Which direction did you take?


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## dorfie (Jul 26, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Thanks. I have used both by different manufacturers. Here are the instructions.
> 
> *0.10 Normal
> 
> ...



Oh my gosh, yep you are right! I must have been tired when I wrote out my calculations, and just never re-checked them! sorry for the confusion! I guess the rooster not letting me sleep in past 4 am is wearing my out! haha 
the equation ibglowin is the best to use, because it has the variable for sample size.


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## PappyCamas (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi, I am PappyCamas's wife and what he forgot to mention was that I brought the berried home about June 10th. I washed them, put them in our primary, covered them with water and a simple syrup mixture of about 4 cups of sugar/water and added a package of Red Star Dry active yeast (regular bread yeast) Is it possible that the wine is already at too high an alcohol content for the wine yeast to even start?


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## Scooter68 (Jul 26, 2016)

I suppose that's possible - have you tasted it lately? If it's well along in the fermentation you should definitely be able to taste a strong alcohol presence. 
More importantly is that after that long fermentation, if successful should be pretty much all over. I would rack it to a new container(s) and then check for any fine bubbles - that would be an indication that a secondary fermentation is ongoing. Even if you don't see bubbles top the carboys off with airtraps and watch them. If you don't see any rise in the trap or bubbling then it's pretty likely fermentation is ove r possibly stopped/stalled - BUT from June 10th approx to July 26 is over 6 weeks and it would be very unusual for fermentation of a wine to be active at this point unless additional sugars and or yeast were added.

At this point if there is sufficient alcohol for the wine to keep (And enough to satisfy you all) then the only thing to work on is checking Acidity, and waiting for it to clear. The acidity would be something to check and adjust asap if needed. Clearing will just take time. Tick, tock, tick, tock.


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## Julie (Jul 26, 2016)

If you used breast yeast, there is a chance that it has reached its alcohol level. Can you get regular wine yeast? And when racking to another vessel does not create a secondary fermentation. When fermentation starts it is all the same fermentation, there is no secondary fermentation. And do not judge fermentation by bubbles or no bubbles. Use the hydrometer!


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## Tnuscan (Jul 26, 2016)

The Wine yeast should take off fine. Sprinkle it on surface, lay towel or lid over bucket, it should be going within a couple days. The acid level is not that bad, it's a little high but sometimes it is. If sitting that long hasn't brought any new issues you might get it going and make some good wine.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 26, 2016)

The majority of people and discussions about fermentation refer to secondary fermentation as that stage of fermentation which occurs at a much slower rate than what we see in the initial 2-7 days (normally). I was referring to secondary fermentation as that which is the continuation of the original fermentation but at a lower rate - sometimes marked by fine streams of bubbles but not in all cases. Airlocks with the cap inside will rise and that is an indication of gassing off which normally comes from fermentation OR the gases released by K-Meta or campden tablet(s). Of course even that is not guaranteed if the seal of the container is not good.
Another point of demarcation is that once we have reached an SG of 1.030-1.010 folks normally rack from the primary fermentation vessel to a carboy to remove the gross lees and a lot of the yeast which has now died as the alcohol level has risen. That racking helps prevent off tastes from the yeast and occasionally from the lees which may contain seeds that could release unsavory tastes and smells. That is the point at which we refer to as having entered or begun our secondary fermentation.
IF a new yeast is introduced after the original yeast has died one could fairly refer to that as a secondary I was not suggesting a NEW fermentation. 
Finally a hydrometer reading only indicates amount of sugar left in the must which indicates that additional fermentation may be possible. One could ferment a wine dry (.995-.990) add additional sugar and yet not have an active fermentation but there would be the potential for fermentation. In one case I had a black currant wine that fermented down to 1.005 and stopped. It remained at that level for several months. The yeast was capable of an 18% wine but did not complete. My calculated ABV was 16.9% (Starting SG 1.134 Ending 1.005) . Since I wanted a dessert wine I was content. No further fermentation occurred - especially since I used Campden tablet at every other racking until I bottled the wine. The Hydrometer reading only indicates the amount of sugars remaining.


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