# carbon dioxide concern



## Dhorton (Jun 2, 2009)

Hello all,
Im kinda new to wine making and I was wondering should I be concerned by the co2 being produced? I live in a small 1 bedroom apt.
"NIOSH states that carbon dioxide concentrations exceeding 4% are immediately dangerous to life and health."
Also since I started making wine, my smoke/co2 detector has started going off randomly.. anyone else have problems?


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## Vanterax (Jun 2, 2009)

You most probably have a CO detector, not CO2. Carbon *mono*xide is very dangerous and a greater danger if you have natural gas heating. What you wine is releasing is equivalent to a couple of bottles of pop. Did you stop drinking pop from that fear? It's full of CO2.

CO2 is what you exhale when you breathe. You are yourself a producing source of CO2.


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## Dhorton (Jun 2, 2009)

Actually my smoke detector detects smoke/CO/CO2/rapid temp shifts (rather high end for my crappy lil' apt, lol) And high concentrations of Co2 can cause health issues, from wikipedia;

Toxicity and its effects increase with the concentration of CO2, here given in volume percent of CO2 in the air:
* 1%, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.[2]
* At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.[36]
* At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory centre, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.[36]
* At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.[36]


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## Wade E (Jun 2, 2009)

Unless you are fermenting about 1000 gallons of wine at 1 time there really is no concern. If you are still worried get a few plants in your house as they take in C02 and produce 02 with it.


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## Vanterax (Jun 2, 2009)

Dhorton said:


> And high concentrations of Co2 can cause health issues, from wikipedia



And do you know how high it needs to be? Several times (by a large magnitude) than what home wine degassing can produce. Again, did you stop drinking pop? Because it has just as much CO2. And you should probably stop breathing too. Might be safer.


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## koda_ky (Jun 2, 2009)

That must be why I feel so funny I thought it was from the wine..lol


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## Dhorton (Jun 2, 2009)

Vanterax said:


> And do you know how high it needs to be? Several times (by a large magnitude) than what home wine degassing can produce. Again, did you stop drinking pop? Because it has just as much CO2. And you should probably stop breathing too. Might be safer.



No I havent stopped drinking sodas, yea soda does have quite a bit of CO2, but Im not opening a new bottle every couple of seconds releasing co2, 24 hrs a day, for months at a time. Also CO2 being a gas, it acts as gasses do, "pools together" possibly creating a bubble of high concentration. 
Im pretty sure its the Co2 setting off my alarm since A) I replaced the old one thinking it was faulty, B) cracking open a window seems to help, but gets old now that its warmer outside.
Also GFYGT


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## Dhorton (Jun 2, 2009)

So I figured I'd take a scientific approach to my problem. According to my calculations it will take ~15 mins to fill a volume of 1 cu/ft at a 8% concentration at 60 degrees f. That's assuming 1/8 of a teaspoon of CO2 per bubble exiting the airlock every 2 seconds...


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## Tom (Jun 2, 2009)

EER... OK I will take your word for it....


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## Vanterax (Jun 3, 2009)

I guess we should've all been dead long ago.


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## kiljoy (Jun 3, 2009)

OK, you’ve peaked my interest. Here’s my calculations…
Lets assume that you have 1 gallon of wine with a s.g. of 1.09. That’s 2lb. 1.3oz of sugar, or 33.3oz. From what I’ve read, fermentation creates two molecules of ethanol and two of carbon dioxide. Assuming 50% of the sugar is converted to C02, then you will have 16.65oz (1.04lb.) of CO2. If the average fermentation time is 14 days, then that’s .07433 lbs. per day. The density of CO2 is 0.123420 lb/cu. ft. So, you have 0.602 cu/ ft. of gas per day. To fill up a 2400 cu. ft. apartment would take 3986.71 days. That’s assuming that the apartment is completely sealed with no air entering or exiting. If you want to go worst case scenario, assume ALL of the sugar becomes CO2 and double my numbers.


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## Malkore (Jun 3, 2009)

When's the last time you changed the battery in your detector? most of them chirp when they need a new battery.

I say this because CO2 is heavier than atmospheric air...so it tends to sink rather than float up where most detectors are installed. of course if the apartment has good airflow, like ceiling fans, then I could see it mixing that ground level CO2 into the rest of the air.

But you'd need a LOT of fermenters and no air exchange with the outside world to really build up those levels.


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## St Allie (Jun 3, 2009)

kiljoy said:


> OK, you’ve peaked my interest. Here’s my calculations…
> Lets assume that you have 1 gallon of wine with a s.g. of 1.09. That’s 2lb. 1.3oz of sugar, or 33.3oz. From what I’ve read, fermentation creates two molecules of ethanol and two of carbon dioxide. Assuming 50% of the sugar is converted to C02, then you will have 16.65oz (1.04lb.) of CO2. If the average fermentation time is 14 days, then that’s .07433 lbs. per day. The density of CO2 is 0.123420 lb/cu. ft. So, you have 0.602 cu/ ft. of gas per day. To fill up a 2400 cu. ft. apartment would take 3986.71 days. That’s assuming that the apartment is completely sealed with no air entering or exiting. If you want to go worst case scenario, assume ALL of the sugar becomes CO2 and double my numbers.





your new nickname is Magnus Pike....! 



Allie


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## Ian_Scott (Jun 3, 2009)

Dhorton said:


> Hello all,
> Im kinda new to wine making and I was wondering should I be concerned by the co2 being produced? I live in a small 1 bedroom apt.
> "NIOSH states that carbon dioxide concentrations exceeding 4% are immediately dangerous to life and health."
> Also since I started making wine, my smoke/co2 detector has started going off randomly.. anyone else have problems?



Interesting question! I know that I've looked at the airlocks bubbling up and down and with all the hype over co2 emissions, the amount of co2 coming off my wines has crossed my mind - fleetingly 

As someone else has already pointed out, the amount of co2 produced is not very much at all, relatively speaking. You shouldn't have to worry.

As far as your smoke and carbon monoxide alarm - those things can be kind of fickle - and often sound "false positive" alarms. They can be affected by humidity, dust, and other factors - of course, they are sensitive - by their very nature, but this sensitivity can cause false alarms. Even small bugs getting into them can set them off.

I've got about 20 gallons of wine fermenting right now - and have at times, had 100 gallons of wine fermenting in my house at the same time. All is fine here


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## Dhorton (Jun 3, 2009)

Kiljoy, I like your approach. 
The density of pure (100%) CO2 is 0.123420 lb/cu. ft at 69.9 degrees f.So based off of your calculations. 1 gallon of fermenting wine/must will produce 0.602 cu/ft of pure (100%) co2 at 69.9 degrees f per day, or 7.53 cu/ft at 8% co2 at 69.9 degrees f per day. 
Malkore, I changed my battery, that didnt work So I had a new one installed- it was the maint man who originally pointed out to me that it may be the 13 gallons of wine Im making. I would assume that the co2 threshold is 1-2% for the detector since normal "air" is .037-.039% co2. Ive since went out and purchased some houseplants to deal with the yeast farts. 
While researching this I stumbled across a pretty interesting article;
http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/askpablo-co2-from-beer.php


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## kiljoy (Jun 3, 2009)

Magnus Pike? Sorry, had to look that one up.

I'm an engineer with A LOT of time on my hands lately.  Work's a bit slow these days. Damn recession!


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## kiljoy (Jun 3, 2009)

Just had a thought! We should all get together and sell our carbon offset credits! Oh wait. we'd have to buy them wouldnt we?


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## Ian_Scott (Jun 3, 2009)

kiljoy said:


> Just had a thought! We should all get together and sell our carbon offset credits! Oh wait. we'd have to buy them wouldnt we?



Hehe.. actually though - if you consider transportation costs of commercial wine - us winemakers should have credits to sell! Besides, that organic material is going to release co2 anyhow, when it's rotting naturally or being digested by humans and animals.


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## St Allie (Jun 3, 2009)

kiljoy said:


> Just had a thought! We should all get together and sell our carbon offset credits! Oh wait. we'd have to buy them wouldnt we?



hehehhe...

well I run beef cattle .. so my carbon credits are chewed up by the local fart tax debits. ( hey it really is called the fart tax!)

Allie


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## treeair (Jun 8, 2009)

*Also concerned for newborns*

I'm so glad I found this thread because I also have a concern about the levels of carbon dioxide with regards to my new babies. We make wine in 1-5 gallon batches in a walk-in closet in our bathroom (no real ventilation). It gets pretty stinky in there but I've never felt light-headed or anything. Now I'm pregnant with twins expected in September and I worry that they may not be able to tolerate carbon dioxide like an adult can. Our bathroom adjoins the master bedroom directly with no door. The babies crib will be in our bedroom so I'm very worried about the carbon dioxide levels from the adjacent bathroom. And I can't even have a glass of wine to ease my excessive worrying! I must add that pregnancy has allowed me to actually get some age on some of my wines.  So what should I do? We don't have any other space in the house with room for all our wines except the garage- which has no A/C and we live in Houston TX. I've thought of getting an old refrigerator. Any other ideas?


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## smurfe (Jun 8, 2009)

treeair said:


> I'm so glad I found this thread because I also have a concern about the levels of carbon dioxide with regards to my new babies. We make wine in 1-5 gallon batches in a walk-in closet in our bathroom (no real ventilation). It gets pretty stinky in there but I've never felt light-headed or anything. Now I'm pregnant with twins expected in September and I worry that they may not be able to tolerate carbon dioxide like an adult can. Our bathroom adjoins the master bedroom directly with no door. The babies crib will be in our bedroom so I'm very worried about the carbon dioxide levels from the adjacent bathroom. And I can't even have a glass of wine to ease my excessive worrying! I must add that pregnancy has allowed me to actually get some age on some of my wines.  So what should I do? We don't have any other space in the house with room for all our wines except the garage- which has no A/C and we live in Houston TX. I've thought of getting an old refrigerator. Any other ideas?



Welcome aboard. Like has been stated, if you are just doing a batch or two at a time, you don't have anything to worry about. Even fermenting in a closet is OK. The yeast don't consume all of the oxygen in the atmosphere. You could though get that refrigerator or better yet a freezer. Add a Johnson or Ranco control and your good to go.


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## kiljoy (Jun 8, 2009)

Instead of the standard air lock, use the hose and jar full of water method. Run the hose throught a cracked window. Maybe you are lucky enough to have a window box or big enough sill to put the jar of water.
Also, some people forgo the airlock and use a balloon. There are pleanty of posts here about using a balloon.


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## treeair (Jun 8, 2009)

*May be useful*

I can't post the links, but I did find this:

from CO2metersdotcom:

TIM8 Desktop Air Quality Monitor Measures CO2, Temperature, Relative Humidity (%RH) 

which costs $179.95 (ouch) and gives a readout directly in ppm and alarms at preset hazard levels (which can be user adjusted)


From InspectAPedia, I discovered that: 

300-400 ppm carbon dioxide is typical in outdoor air, around 600 ppm in indoor air. Levels about 600 ppm indicate a lack of fresh air or ventilation.

10,000 ppm is equal to a 1% concentration in air.

"At 1% concentration of carbon dioxide CO2 (10,000 parts per million or ppm) and under continuous exposure at that level, such as in an auditorium filled with occupants and poor fresh air ventilation, some occupants are likely to feel drowsy.

The concentration of carbon dioxide must be over about 2% (20,000 ppm) before most people are aware of its presence unless the odor of an associated material (auto exhaust or fermenting yeast, for instance) is present at lower concentrations. 

Above 2%, carbon dioxide may cause a feeling of heaviness in the chest and/or more frequent and deeper respirations. 

If exposure continues at that level for several hours, minimal "acidosis" (an acid condition of the blood) may occur but more frequently is absent. 

Breathing rate doubles at 3% CO2 and is four times the normal rate at 5% CO2. 

Toxic levels of carbon dioxide: at levels above 5%, concentration CO2 is directly toxic. [At lower levels we may be seeing effects of a reduction in the relative amount of oxygen rather than direct toxicity of CO2.]"


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## Tom (Jun 8, 2009)

1st WELCOME to our group, 
2nd Do not worry, there will not be enough to worry about for any health issues. Suggestion, get some plants as they will convert it to oxygen I believe.
If you are breast feeding be careful drinking.


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## kiljoy (Jun 8, 2009)

If we all lived in hermetically sealed environmental chambers, I'd worry about it. We live in very porous boxes. There is air exchange all of the time. For instance, entering/exiting your front door, cracking a window, forced air heat, air conditioning, etc. You mentioned that you have A/C. The positive air pressure from that alone will force CO2 out. If you're really worried, get a few house plants. Don't confuse the dangers of carbon monoxide with carbon dioxide.


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## gonzo46307 (Jun 8, 2009)

Thank goodness I carry that caged canary around with me...

Peace,
Bob


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## Tom (Jun 8, 2009)

gonzo46307 said:


> Thank goodness I carry that caged canary around with me...
> 
> Peace,
> Bob


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## Ian_Scott (Jun 9, 2009)

treeair said:


> Any other ideas?



Yes - as the wise musician sings, "Don't worry, be happy."  

Seriously.. one to five gallons is not going to produce an abundance of co2 that is going to affect your air quality in any regular setting where you have exchanges of air going on like a house.

I've had over 50 gallons fermenting at one time in my house - in the winter - when windows are seldom open - and I can promise you that there was no air quality issues. Take a look at Killjoy's post above - he's done the calculations - and the co2 from a few gallons of wine fermenting is negligible. You likely have more to worry about if you lived in Toronto on were outside exercising on smog alert days. And tons of people seem to do fine exercising on smog alert days.


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## Vanterax (Jun 9, 2009)

> At 1% concentration of carbon dioxide CO2 (10,000 parts per million or ppm) and under continuous exposure at that level, such as in an auditorium filled with occupants and poor fresh air ventilation



And there's absolutely no way that a few wine carboys will create as much CO2 has an auditorium full of people.

Isn't ironic we have a new user called "Tree Air"?


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## Dhorton (Jun 10, 2009)

I went out and purchased a few houseplants and my combo smoke detector has not gone off since.....I think the only real health concern is if your making large batches, starting at the same time, in a small poorly ventilated area, in which you spend a considerable amount of time in.


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## cpfan (Jun 11, 2009)

Dhorton said:


> I went out and purchased a few houseplants and my combo smoke detector has not gone off since.....I think the only real health concern is if your making large batches, starting at the same time, in a small poorly ventilated area, in which you spend a considerable amount of time in.


You mean like a large Ferment on Premises business with many batches started in one day and all wine stored in a nice climate controlled room?

Never heard of any health issues in those circumstances.

Steve


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## Dhorton (Jun 11, 2009)

No, as in don't spend hours in a confined space like a walk in closet, bathroom, small basement/garage/shed, while having ~60 gallons of wine in the rapid fermentation stage....
I think the problem I was having was the combo smoke detector was being set off by "bubbles" of higher concentrations. Brief exposures should be somewhat harmless..


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## kiljoy (Jun 11, 2009)

Kind of non-sequiter, but I had a smoke alarm in college that would go off every time I made toast! The toaster was new, and there was no smoke whatsoever, but the stupid thing went off every time. It was super sensitive and I had a small efficiency apartment to boot.


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## Manimal (Jun 12, 2009)

Similar to the previous post, I have a smoke detector that goes off during very humid weather... quite annoying considering the humid conditions we get during summer in Southern Ontario.


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## abmish384 (Jan 18, 2010)

*Do you know dry ice?*

hello friends,
Here i am explaining DRY ICE.Solid carbon dioxide is known as dry ice.It is soft,white snow like substance and looks like ice.However,it does not wet a piece of cloth or paper because it sublimes without melting.Solid carbon dioxide is used as refrigerant under the commercial name drikold.
thank you.
AB MISH


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