# 2012 Riesling



## Deezil

With these Riesling grapes coming my way in a couple weeks, ive been trying to work myself through the process i've got a head of me and it seems one of my bigger obstacles is choosing which yeast strain to go with..

Lalvin tries to suggest 1118 for late harvest wines but i know better.. Yes its a monster & could finish the job, but it'd blow off all the aromas and the ABV is 4-5% higher than i'd like to aim for.. Granted i dont know the actual numbers of the grapes yet but im just trying to 'ballpark it'

I was considering 1116 but it has a similiar ABV tolerance so that's made me lean toward D-47... But.... Do i wanna do that? I dunno... So i ask..

Any other opinions?

PS - the grower indicated they'd be of "late harvest" quality/numbers, so if you're wondering if im going for Late Harvest just cause i wanna be difficult - not so much


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## Deezil

Did a little more digging...

R-HST sounds like it might be fun

Anyone have any experience with it?

.. Or do i have a lot of fun, split the batch and run 2 yeasts? W15 might be fun too


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## robie

I vote to split the batches and try at least two yeast, one on each batch, of course. You can blend back and get the best of 2 worlds.

Then you can tell us so we will know next time, 'cause obviously we surely don't already know. 

I guess a big question is can you get those specialty yeasts in smaller, home wine making quantities? Hope so!


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## Deezil

My post, two posts ago, has links to those yeasts in 8g packets through MoreWine (they also have 80g packs, as well as the 500g).. I'm just fishing for answers/information/input early so i have time for it to be shipped here..

2 yeasts & blend, might be more beneficial to me in the long run, because i plan on buying more grapes next year & i dont think i'll ever skip a year of riesling now 

If not W15 ('cause im pretty much decided on R-HST), then maybe BA-11 ..

Body:
R-HST - "R-HST retains fresh varietal character while contributing body and mouthfeel. R-HST produces crisp, premium white wines intended for aging."

W15 - "W15 was developed to ferment dry whites at moderate speeds where bright fruit and heavy mouthfeel are desired." 

BA11 - " BA11 intensifies mouthfeel and augments lingering flavors in both still and sparkling white wines." , "With fruit from hot climates, BA11 can really help to "flesh out" a wine by its' volume and mouthfeel enhancement. This strain is good by itself, as well as being a great structural component to a blend. "

Nose:
R-HST - "R-HST is best used when the most transparency between a fruit and a finished wine is sought. This can be useful for showcasing quality fruit and terroir differences, as well making sure original fruit characters are retained in a final blend."

W15 - "This yeast does just that _(see Body)_, and it does so while respecting the varietal characteristics of the fruit"

BA11 - "It promotes clean, aromatic, estery characteristics during fermentation.", "BA11 encourages the fresh fruit aromas of orange blossom, pineapple and apricot. In relatively neutral white varieties BA11 brings out tropical fruit, cream, vanilla and spice."

Maybe if i can see it all on the same page - cause they all sound good when you read the descriptions... The "spice" of ba11 kinda makes me nervous though, its a trait in wine i know i dont like


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## Deezil

Yeah... R-HST & W15 it is..

From Lallemand: 

Lalvin R-HST®: For Riesling and other aromatic whites 
R-HST was selected for its exceptional oenological properties in Riesling from trials conducted from 1991 to 1996 in the Heiligenstein region of Austria. R-HST has a short lag phase and generation time, even at cold temperatures. These features allow it to dominate and persist over spoilage yeast such as _Kloeckera apiculata_. R-HST retains fresh varietal character and emphasizes floral (rose) and mineral characteristics while contributing body and mouthfeel for an overall complexity and elegance. R-HST also produces crisp, premium white and Pinot noir wines which develop well over time. 

Lalvin W15™: For clean, low-temperature ferments 
W15 was isolated in 1991 from a high-quality Müller Thurgau must at the Viticulture Research Station in Wädenswil, Switzerland. W15 was developed to ferment dry white and red wines at moderate speeds, where bright fruit and good structure are desired due to the production of higher levels of glycerol and succinic acid. Very little heat is generated by W15 during fermentation, reducing the potential for formation of sulfide aromas and good osmotic tolerance has been noted for late harvest fermentations and icewine. 



Not gonna age the wine on oak, but what about adding oak during fermentation to add structure? Anyone? Never done oak before myself... Read that the vanillin/caramel compounds get consumed during fermentation though, leaving less of a flavor impact but still bringing some structure... Light toasted french oak maybe? 

Not gonna do battonage, but what about a little unstirred lees aging? That tampers down the fresh fruit aromas though huh? So probably out.. I'm just thinking outloud at this point, feel free to correct me or help point me in the right direction.

Looking for some good body & structure, the ability to age it a while (2-5yrs if possible) but not lose the fresh light crisp aromas and flavors..

Any tips on dodging a dry finish? Not as in a low SG in finished wine, but as in the finish on your palette..
Could it be influenced by tweaking the structure of the wine with oak and such? Would leaving those out, or atleast keeping that in mind when dosing, keep the sweetness in the finish?


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> Not gonna do battonage, but what about a little unstirred lees aging? That tampers down the fresh fruit aromas though huh? So probably out.. I'm just thinking outloud at this point, feel free to correct me or help point me in the right direction.



Not gonna do any lees aging, but i am thinking im gonna do a 4hr cold soak on the skins and then press off, take measurements/adjust & add the yeast starter


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## Diverdown066

I'm currently working on a batch of Riesling and found the article below to be very helpful. It was a very short notice deal and due to a slight miscommunication, I ended up gleaning about 175 lbs of grapes of various quality. The short notice nature of the deal meant I was unable to be too picky with yeast selection. I split the juice and froze half. After settling and racking, I inoculated the other half with D47 which was the only good choice I had. I pressed my kegorator into service and have been fermenting about 55-60 degrees. I let the fermentation start at room temp though before placing it the kegerator. So far so good. Very floral with definite notes of pineapple and citrus. The other half will be cryoconcentrated to become an ice wine. I've ordered some Rudesheimer yeast for that endeavor. It seems to be a common yeast for Riesling and since I didn't see it listed in your post, I thought I'd mention it. Good luck.

http://winemakermag.com/stories/vf/...etalswine-styles/221-cool-refreshing-riesling


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## Deezil

Havent heard of Rudesheimer, but i see its made by Wyeast - i havent looked into them much.. Seems to have a 12-13% ABV tolerance, which sounds about right for a table-wine riesling (aka i might steal your idea for next year  ) but i'm not sure i'd use it on a dessert-style riesling.. 

It's characteristics sound great, but i would fear that it wouldnt eat up enough of the sugars, leaving you with a sickly-sweet finished wine... Most "ice wines" are 30-33 Brix, which is a SG of 1.130+.. Subtract 12-13% ABV and you've got 1.030 - 1.040 SG still... Which is about where my 18% ice wine is sitting for sweetness..

Thats why i've gone for yeasts above 12-13% but not 18% ABV - i used 1118 on my Riesling Ice Wine RJS kit so i already have that "sickly sweet" wine you may be looking for - i'm aiming to come in a "notch" under that at 14-16% w/ balancing residual sweetness.

I'm leaning away from the 4-hr cold soak, although i may let them soak long enough to get them all crushed & strained out (probably an hour or two, while im working through it)....

I'm thinking i might put the 2 carboys i plan on fermenting in, outside on the porch at night.. It's been hitting low-mid 50's... And my work area is low-mid 60's all day/night... The nighttime cooloff might help keep things at a slower pace although i'll probably let fermentation get kicking & a cap form before i put it outside for the first time

I'll probably kick the carboys back out to the porch in December/January for some au naturale cold stabilization

I've read a few things about Bentonite just post-fermentation to help clearing & not to let the wine sit on the lees at all... Gonna do the latter, but not sure about bentonite - i tend to prefer time..

Hoping to leave some residual sweetness this time to balance the acidity (hoping to put some age on this year's), but next year i'll probably be siphoning off a portion of juice to reintroduce the residual sweetness for a regular ol riesling table wine


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## Deezil

This book has me thinking - beyond my first thought of "i really dont wanna mess this up" - (Wine From Grape to Glass, Vol 3; Jens Priewe)

"Sometimes white grapes are not pressed, but only crushed. Must and skins subsequently remain together for a few hours to release the aromatic substances from the skin and give the wine more structure."

"Cold fermentation is only possible using certain specific yeast that are active at low temperatures. In addition, the must has to be well clarified. Very thoroughly fined must, however, is poor in pectins - that is, carbohydrate polymers- which have the ability to fuse molecules, adding viscosity to wine and thereby giving it body. Wines poor in pectins have little body and are too easy to drink. Thus cold fermented wines are seldom faceted and complex. Their aroma structure is little altered by the transition from the juice stage to the wine stage."

As i think back, over the late harvest rieslings ive tried.. 

They've all had that riesling-acidity, which i love and hope to embrace in this batch... 

Most of them peaked at 2yrs +, the sweetness was overbearing when they're younger.. I imagine if i'd let them hang around the house long enough, they would have been better at 3 & 4 years..

They were more toward the yellow-green color than they were the straw-color i assocoiate with something like a Chard.. But i wouldnt mind something in the middle, if it meant a little more structure

Most of the late harvests i've had tend to only express the aromatic notes - the pear, apple, flowers - in their flavors, the taste and smell seem to "ring the same bells", if that makes sense.. And the finishes havent been all-too impressive in length... Would "a little more structure" from some cold maceration, help spread out the time between these same bells being rung?

(smell)--(taste)--(finish)

Apple/Pear/Flower-Apple/Pear/Flower-Sweetness
vs
Apple/Pear/Flower---Apple-Pear-Flower--Sweetness

In essence, would it lengthen the experience? Would too much kill the sweetness on the finish? Or affect it at all? I dont wanna lose the sweetness on the finish, but if i could lengthen it...

Any thoughts out there?


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## joeswine

*Yeast to do?*

I would prefer champagne yeast, especially for the type of great the characteristics of the champagne yeast, but which are really looking for the late harvest wine. If you think about it . The finish of the wine is very smooth ,, aromatic and flavorful . I made this before it does best the champagne yeast it works with the natural characteristics of. The great................... cold fermentation is where it is really at with this one, but if you cannot all the more reason to use the champagne yeast is restrictive the amount of alcohol and give you but it will not kill your case. Just my thoughtsE


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## Deezil

Hey Joe, thanks for weighin in - appreciate it

Lalvin's champagne yeast is EC-1118, which is what came with my RJ Spagnols Riesling Ice Wine kit that i did in 2010, and did a good job there - 18% ABV, 1.050SG in the end, its still bulk aging & i actually had a taste just the other day - mind-blowing.

My aim with these fresh grapes is a little different, seeing as i have the ice wine kit @ 18% ABV / very sweet.. This time i'm shooting for 14-16% ABV / sweetness to match (less than the ice wine-sweet) but i want to play more with the profile which is why im considering 2 different yeasts, cold maceration & nighttime (1/2-cold) ferment...

I just read an article/blog last night from a local winemaker working with Madeleine Angevine (the grape im putting in the ground next spring - its Riesling-esque) and he was taste-testing a 5-6yr old wine that he had cold-macerated for 17 hours, and he was very pleased with the glass of wine with him.. I'm not going to this extreme with my Riesling grapes, but i aim rethinking a 4-6hr cold maceration as opposed to just 1-2hrs because i would like these bottles to reach the same 5-6yrs with no problems - who knows when i'll get late harvest grapes again, thats Mother Nature's choice.

Next year i plan on stepping it down yet another "notch" and working out a basic Riesling table wine (9-12% ABV) and probably from dry to semi-sweet/balanced - just trying to fill in my Cellar Blanks while Mother Nature works with me - or I with her..


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## Deezil

Well.. May not even be happening now..

Emailed "dude" today, told him the dwnpmt is in the mail, as we had previously worked out - only to get an email back that they've "sold out" based on harvest estimates, on "first come first serve" basis & was 'sorry' he didnt tell me earlier

150lbs isnt much, so theres a chance he'll pull it outta "somewhere" but... Isnt the point.. Big guy, little guy - you dont forget about your customer..

Fits into life, since my computer crashed on my birthday, damn-near knocked myself out with a blow to the head the next day, the apples got harvested early so i've been jumping over those (bout 80-100lbs) waiting for grape skins & gettin nagged-at for taking up half the freezer with blackberries (25lbs) - again waiting for grape skins... Only to find out there may not be any grape skins

Guess i should be glad i didnt place the order with MoreWine for the yeasts yet.. But oddly, i'm not.


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## Deezil

Got the comp back up and running

Found a few other sources for riesling grapes, that im still "feelin out"
Might have a drive to make this weekend
Havent given up

Gonna place the MoreWine-yeast order shortly


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## Deezil

All this searching, begging and pleading... And all i needed was a little faith

Just got an email for my original source, lettin me know he'd have my grapes this Sunday evening so it looks like im gonna be a hurtin unit on Monday/Tuesday..

Stay tuned, pics/mess to come


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## ibglowin

We want pics!


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## Deezil

Was told the Brix will be somewhere between 22 - 23..

Trying to figure out how to 'cross this bridge'..

So, i know i want residual sweetness
And, i know the yeasts i selected will handle all the sugars in the grapes

So i think theres two courses of action i can take

Uno - Siphon off a portion of must, k-meta/sorbate it & ferment the rest dry. Add the "f-pack" & have an 10-11% ABV finished wine (11.5-12% minus f-pack dillution)

Dos - Siphon off a portion of the must, k-meta/sorbate it.. Add a touch of sugar (either to about 13% for a finished-12% ABV or to 15% for a 14% finishd ABV) and ferment dry.. stabilize and add the "f-pack"

Any opinions?

I dont know the TA/pH
Wish i did, would help

Gotta work my way through this part, because it relates to how long of a cold soak i'll do - more ABV, longer cold soak


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## ibglowin

Hey Dez,

I am making Port out of 1/2 my Petit Sirah. This stuff is inky black and has finished out to 16%ABV! I was faced with the same question. How do I back sweeten effectively. I decided to not pull any must out and mess with it but instead use some Alexanders Grape Concentrate. Its a 46oz can made from varietal grapes. I choose Zinfandel. This stuff is 68 Brix! I just looked and they have a Riesling Concentrate as well. 

Since this is designed to make wine the only thing besides the grape concentrate is sulfites. Looks to me to be a perfect concoction to back sweeten!


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## Deezil

Anxiety is all gone..
Just got home..

150lbs of WA State Riesling 


















And a comparison between what my 1st year Riesling plants did in a Record-Setting 81-days without rain in Seattle.. And actual, ripe Riesling..







About to get ready destemming them

Plan is to destem & crush tonight
Cold-soak overnight
"Press" early morning tomorrow & put juice in 2 5-gallon carboys

At that point, i can put the carboys on ice
Yeasts, etc wont be in until Tuesday

How much k-meta should i use?
Dont want oxidation or fermentation starting itself

Whatch'all think?


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## ibglowin

Make a 10% solution of K-meta (5gms in 50ml) Then add 20ml of that to the must and stir well.

Good luck with the hand destem.......

I feel for you dude. Been there, done that!


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## Deezil

21 hours later...

Hand de-stemmed ... Check
Hand crushed ... Check
Hand pressed ... Check

Giving it some time to clarify now, theres a good bit of sediment i'll be able to rack off of shortly & that'll lower the levels 

The color is thrown off because of the lighting / orange floors, but this'll show the amount







... Sleep, what?....

Was interesting, finally getting my hands on the bunches... There was quite a bit of shriveling so it'll be fun to take the SG/TA tests tomorrow

Little bit of mold, but it finally rained in WA after 81 days so im guessing thats where that came from (some places got 2+ inches).. Few earwigs, which i didnt expect, but no spiders, which i did expect.. Not much leaf debris..

Pretty happy overall, so far... 
Gonna clarify it and see what the numbers look like tomorrow

It'll probably sit outside in the 40's tonight

The skins will be meeting my frozen blackberries here shortly.. Let that all soak overnight and i'll take readings on that tomorrow too


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## ibglowin

Bwahahahahahahaha......

You win for the longest hand held crush/destem dude. Congrats (I think!)

Get some sleep! 



Deezil said:


> 21 hours later...
> 
> Hand de-stemmed ... Check
> Hand crushed ... Check
> Hand pressed ... Check


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## Deezil

Cant sleep yet, no rest for the wicked

Gotta finish cleaning up the juice splatters, get the juice racked off the sediment, put the juice outside & let the blackberries thaw in the skins overnight.. Atleast...

Kinda scared to sleep, i know i'll dream of billions of little green spheres


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## Deezil

Woke up to no unwanted-action
All's well so far

Racked off a good bit of sediment last night, let it sit overnight
There's another .5" - 1" of sediment on the bottom but i'm not sure if i should rack off that or not

Last nights sediment is sitting in 3, 1-gallon jugs, clearing out

Yeasts should be at the front door, anytime today







SG/TA to come, in a bit


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## The_Wine_Gnat

I am avidly following your progress. Keep the photos and updates coming! Couple of questions for you though.

1.) What vineyard in WA did you source from?
2.) Which yeasts are you planning to go with? I'm hoping you do one carboy with R-HST and one with W-15 b/c that's what I plan to do! 
3.) Did you add SO2 or K Sobate to stop natural fermentation? If so how much for each 5gal carboy?
4.) Are you planning on doing Bentonite fining at all? If so, before or after ferm?

Looking forward to seeing the updates!! Good luck!!


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## Deezil

The_Wine_Gnat said:


> I am avidly following your progress. Keep the photos and updates coming! Couple of questions for you though.
> 
> 1.) What vineyard in WA did you source from?
> 2.) Which yeasts are you planning to go with? I'm hoping you do one carboy with R-HST and one with W-15 b/c that's what I plan to do!
> 3.) Did you add SO2 or K Sobate to stop natural fermentation? If so how much for each 5gal carboy?
> 4.) Are you planning on doing Bentonite fining at all? If so, before or after ferm?
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the updates!! Good luck!!



1 - The farm i got the fruit from - found out on Pick-Up that most of their grapes are locked into contracts with some of the larger wineries.. C & M Farms? C & J? Something like that.. Yakima WA area

2 - I just finished opening the package that the R-HST & W15 showed up in.. Also got enough Lallzyme Cuvee Blanc & Lysozyme for this batch. Will most definitely be using both yeast, 1-per-carboy, and blending on the backend a few months / maybe a year from now

3 - Because i did it by hand, SO2 was a *must*. Probably overshot it a bit, but i hoped to because i was waiting on FedEx for my yeast... 25ml of 10% solution @ crush & another 1/8 tsp K-meta into each carboy before the first racking

4 - With me, fining is a "only if i have to"-type thing.. I have bentonite on hand, but i've never used it.. Also have sparklloid, super kleer, gelatin, & isinglass


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## The_Wine_Gnat

The fact that you are so detailed in your Riesling wine making is greatly helping me. As a new winemaker, I am hoping to focus on Rieslings, especially keeping them sweeter without having to chapitalize. I'm very excited for your endeavor!! 

1.) How are you monitoring your temps? I'm debating between different types of thermometers currently (floating, adhesive, etc). What temps are you shooting for during fermentation, 50-55F?

2.) Are you keeping some of the un-fermented must to add back in (back sweeten?) later to increase your residual sugar levels? If so, did you freeze it?

3.) Are you using powered SO2? I'm not sure that I understand 25ml of 10% solution... Is that about 1/4 tsp for each 5 gal carboy? I've read 50ppm is the way to go.

4.) What tools do you recommend to take TA/SG?

Gnat


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## Deezil

In went the Lallzyme Cuvee Blanc.. If i would have had it when i needed it (my fault), i could have actually let it cold-macerate the grapes, like its supposed to.. But i should still see some benefit from it, this way, i would think.


 Never have i been so mad at myself. I swear, all i did - i blinked... The hose came out of the receiving carboy..... Never, have i wanted to strangle myself...

Little less-so now, that i realize it was less than half a gallon.... But riesling is riesling.. And after 21 hours of hard work... Think im looking at 1 nice 5-gallon carboy full & maybe a gallon extra, in the end - dunno how to feel about it..




On a lighter note..

*SG - 1.092
TA - .5% - .6%*

Yeast starters... Getting started 






3.75g per starter, Go-Ferm
1 packet per starter, yeast

Now i have to figure out..

Do i wanna hit the 14-15% ABV?

That'd require siphoning off between 1/2 - 1 gallon of juice, sorbating it.. Chaptalizing the rest up to 15% & adding the reserve on the backend.. But the acidity isnt as high as i hoped, for all that.. I would have to adjust the acidity up a point or two

Or do i leave it at 12.5 % ABV?

Leaning more towards this, because of the acidity.. I dont want to manipulate the grapes too much and lose the original character...

Any input on my not-so-newfound dilemma?


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## Deezil

The_Wine_Gnat said:


> The fact that you are so detailed in your Riesling wine making is greatly helping me. As a new winemaker, I am hoping to focus on Rieslings, especially keeping them sweeter without having to chapitalize. I'm very excited for your endeavor!!
> 
> 1.) How are you monitoring your temps? I'm debating between different types of thermometers currently (floating, adhesive, etc). What temps are you shooting for during fermentation, 50-55F?
> 
> 2.) Are you keeping some of the un-fermented must to add back in (back sweeten?) later to increase your residual sugar levels? If so, did you freeze it?
> 
> 3.) Are you using powered SO2? I'm not sure that I understand 25ml of 10% solution... Is that about 1/4 tsp for each 5 gal carboy? I've read 50ppm is the way to go.
> 
> 4.) What tools do you recommend to take TA/SG?
> 
> Gnat



Appreciate the compliment on being detailed - i try.. My posts on this website have more details than my actual handwritten logs, so... Kinda engrained in me now 

1 - I dont have a very surefire way to keep track of my temps, but i do plan on keeping the room just warm enough so the dog isnt visibly shivering (thats my 'its too cold' queue, purple toes are nothing!.. I'm in the basement lol)

2 - I'm figuring out how to cross this bridge, right now.. I was leaning that way when i didnt know "the numbers"... But now that i know, im having a hard time telling myself its okay to mess with a good thing

3 - Powdered K-meta, yep.. ibglowin hipped me to the 10% solution on page 2.. 2.5 grams of k-meta into 25ml of water, made sure it was dissolved well & in it went

4 - my TA test kit just showed up today from MoreWine, with my yeasts, because my previous chemicals were too old and giving false readings - its a pretty simple procedure to take the TA... Hydrometer for SG.. Wish i had a pH meter, that helps with the TA readings


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## Deezil

You can see in the Yeast Starter pic above, the pectic enzymes are doing the trick; its even more dramatic now in person.... Bet i have to rack again later just before pitching the yeasts.. Probably somewhere around midnight tonight... 

Have until then to figure out this 12.5 ABV vs 15% ABV dilemma


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## Deezil

Yeasts are viable

Lallzyme Cuvee Blanc worked


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> Yeah... R-HST & W15 it is..
> 
> From Lallemand:
> 
> Lalvin R-HST®: For Riesling and other aromatic whites
> R-HST was selected for its exceptional oenological properties in Riesling from trials conducted from 1991 to 1996 in the Heiligenstein region of Austria. R-HST has a short lag phase and generation time, even at cold temperatures. These features allow it to dominate and persist over spoilage yeast such as _Kloeckera apiculata_. R-HST retains fresh varietal character and emphasizes floral (rose) and mineral characteristics while contributing body and mouthfeel for an overall complexity and elegance. R-HST also produces crisp, premium white and Pinot noir wines which develop well over time.
> 
> Lalvin W15™: For clean, low-temperature ferments
> W15 was isolated in 1991 from a high-quality Müller Thurgau must at the Viticulture Research Station in Wädenswil, Switzerland. W15 was developed to ferment dry white and red wines at moderate speeds, where bright fruit and good structure are desired due to the production of higher levels of glycerol and succinic acid. Very little heat is generated by W15 during fermentation, reducing the potential for formation of sulfide aromas and good osmotic tolerance has been noted for late harvest fermentations and icewine.



Oh... My... Goodness...
Been smellin the yeast starters

I've had the giggles over the R-HST.. Smells cream-soda-y 

The W15 is similiar in smell

If i could put physical terms, to aromas.... The R-HST is softer, mellower, less in-your-face while the W-15 has more of a backbone to the smell; less of the creamy-vanilla-ish smells and more... I dunno the word for it


Added to each carboy:

1.25g Fermaid-O
3.75g Opti-White
3.75g Booster Blanc
2.5g FT Blanc Soft


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## Deezil

What's different with these two pictures?














Yeasties are in


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Deezil said:


> 3.75g per starter, Go-Ferm
> 1 packet per starter, yeast
> 
> Now i have to figure out..
> 
> Do i wanna hit the 14-15% ABV?
> 
> That'd require siphoning off between 1/2 - 1 gallon of juice, sorbating it.. Chaptalizing the rest up to 15% & adding the reserve on the backend.. But the acidity isnt as high as i hoped, for all that.. I would have to adjust the acidity up a point or two
> 
> Or do i leave it at 12.5 % ABV?
> 
> Leaning more towards this, because of the acidity.. I dont want to manipulate the grapes too much and lose the original character...
> 
> Any input on my not-so-newfound dilemma?



I would go with a 12.5% ABV for a Riesling, especially one that I believe you are planning to keep sweeter. I don't think I can recall a high alcohol Rielsing that I've had which isn't a late harvest, spatlese, or auslese. Agree with your idea of not manipulating the grapes too much as well.

Follow up question, what do the ingredients listed below that you added to each carboy do? Not familiar with any of them being new and all.

1.25g Fermaid-O
3.75g Opti-White
3.75g Booster Blanc
2.5g FT Blanc Soft

Loving the photos!


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## Deezil

The_Wine_Gnat said:


> I would go with a 12.5% ABV for a Riesling, especially one that I believe you are planning to keep sweeter. I don't think I can recall a high alcohol Rielsing that I've had which isn't a late harvest, spatlese, or auslese. Agree with your idea of not manipulating the grapes too much as well.
> 
> Follow up question, what do the ingredients listed below that you added to each carboy do? Not familiar with any of them being new and all.
> 
> 1.25g Fermaid-O
> 3.75g Opti-White
> 3.75g Booster Blanc
> 2.5g FT Blanc Soft
> 
> Loving the photos!



That's what i did, going for 12.5% and fermenting to dry.. I'll cross the backsweetening bridge this time next year.. Either with next years crop, or the Alexander's Concentrate that IB pointed out.. Most likely i'll use next years harvest to sweeten this...

Fermaid-O - an organic from of yeast nutrient
Opti-White & Booster Blanc - yeast derived additives that help with mouthfeel, stave off oxidation, brings out more aromatics & helps dodge things like chemical or vegetative off-odors/tastes
FT Blanc Soft - a tannin derived from oak and chestnuts (i think?) & helps with mouthfeel and such.. hopefully extends the ability to age as well



The_Wine_Gnat said:


> I am hoping to focus on Rieslings, especially keeping them sweeter without having to chapitalize. I'm very excited for your endeavor!!



Riesling stole my heart too, i imagine i'll put more effort into this grape than anything else through the course of my life


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## rob

Denzil,

I would think twice about back sweeting with juice, I tried that and it wanted to re ferment for me. You will be re interducing wild yeast.


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## Deezil

I dont think there's any way around Sorbate in this batch.. Unless i leave it dry, which is an option - i'm just waiting to see how it tastes

But yeah.. Only 12.5% PA & a 15% ABV-rated yeast... Definitely dont want some wid yeasts crashing the party


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## The_Wine_Gnat

From the information I've gleaned from the web about keeping residual sugar while stopping the chance of re-fermentation there are two possible options I am considering that you might think about:

1.) Drop the temperature 40F or below for 1-2 weeks, add K-Sorbate (125-200ppm) in conjunction with SO2 (50ppm) to stop the chance of re-fermentation. Having a very low pH also apparently helps (2.9-3.1). The downside of this from what I've heard is that using K-Sorbate might add a slight sulfur taste (can anyone confirm?)

2.) Find a friend who has a .5 micro filter to filter out 80-99% all yeast. It would have to be a pressurized filter though. Apparently it's also recommended to fine your wine to settle out some particles before hand as well. Invasive techniques, but probably necessary if you don't want to chapitalize or plan on making sweeter wine in the future. http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-filter/


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## Deezil

Wineries hoping to dodge Sorbate but keep residual sugars, will cold-crash + sulfite + filter but its not bulletproof & not something im comfortable with doing at this point, with this batch... 

Some people say Sorbate gives a bubblegum type taste but thats usually when its overdone or the person is susceptible/sensitive to sorbate smells/tastes

I filter my wines, even less than i fine my wines.. I prefer time.. Filtering at that fine of a level, will strip the wine of characteristics & my aim is to keep the finer details found in the grapes..

The *ideal* way for me to have approached this would have been to use a 9-11% ABV yeast & letting it quit on its own before all the sugars were gone.. But since i anticipated grapes with higher sugars, i bought yeasts to match & thats the only real reason i'll be stuck using sorbate


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Hmmm, what yeast would you use that stops fermentation at 9-11%? Sounds like a dessert/ice wine type of yeast.


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## Deezil

The opposite, actually... Ice Wine / Dessert yeasts are usually monstrous like EC-1118 because of the high levels of sugar/acids present in the must at pitch

Someone had mentioned Rudeshiemer to me on an earlier page in this thread, and that sounded like a nice candidate even though its 12% alcohol tolerant.. Wyeast also has a Cider yeast thats 11% alcohol tolerant but i havent looked at it much

Still need to do more research about 9-10% ABV yeasts myself


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## Deezil

SG Readings

R-HST : 1.072
W15 : 1.078

Will add the additional 2.5g Fermaid-O to each carboy, when i wake up in the AM/Nooner


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## The_Wine_Gnat

I've been thinking about what you said about the challenges of keeping RS, especially if you done backsweeten and it seems a little too challenging for my first time as well. I'm going to try your route of fermenting until dryness or off sweetness.

Very curious about the differences between R-HST and W-15. Those are my top two yeast choices as well. How much are they foaming currently?

Keep the updates coming!


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## Deezil

In went the Fermaid-O - 2.5g per carboy







Very little foam, on both of these yeasts











Also took a picture of a 1-gallon, that i've just been letting sit... It has some juice that gathered on top, i've been keeping an eye on it just to see what the color of the wine might be when its all said and done.. Here's what i'm lookin at







Hows the color? Look like a Riesling or no?


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.056
W15 : 1.060

Cruisin on along..

Had a slight H2S smell this morning, guessing it was from not adding the Fermaid-O last night & i didnt realize that R-HST was "medium"-need on nitrogen levels.. Did some hefty-stirring and it went away after the dose of Fermaid-O

The W15 on the other hand, has had a steady 1/4" of foam on it, since i took the "oh its not foaming very much" picture this morning / added the Fermaid-O.. Hasnt grown over 1/4", but hasnt gone away either


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## The_Wine_Gnat

How are you measuring your SG? I'm curious if you take a sample, strain most of the solids, then add the hydrometer or use another method.

Hmm, I didn't realize R-HST was medium need for nitrogen also. Where did you learn about that? 

Also surprised you got a slight H2S smell. Any idea why?


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## Deezil

I use a fermtech wine theif to draw a sample up & its big enough that the hydrometer slides right into it.. So i draw the sample into the wine thief, plunge the hydrometer down into the liquid several times to displace a bunch of the CO2, then take a reading once spinning it free of anything clinging on

I was surprised at the H2S smell i got, so i did some investigating and ended up on Lallemand & Scotts Lab websites looking at the characteristics of the wine yeast again, when it finally popped out at me where it said "Nitrogen needs: Medium".. And a lightbulb went off

The H2S smell was probably from lack of nitrogen / lack of nutrients / aka the yeast were starting to starve.. It's like going to a restaurant, ordering a steak dinner and all they bring you is your salad and some corn - you'd probably do some unwanted things too


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.040
W15 : 1.038

Oh my!


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## tfries

It's been interesting following your progress. We are still waiting for our Riesling grapes to ripen more. I checked them earlier in the week and they were 17 Brix and 2.9ph. With the rains here now, I am not sure how much more they will ripen. I am going to let them hang until they either get up to 19 Brix and 3.1 ph or they start showing signs of rot, at which point I will bring them in and deal with it.


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## Deezil

Yeah its cloudy & showers here for atleast the next 10 days [as i type, i see blue skies and sunshine (only in PNW!)] on the news, i dunno how much more sun you'll see unless you happen to be in the rain-shadow of some mountains

How many vines do you have hanging? I cant wait to plant some, i imagine they'll all be cuttings from the 2 plants i have out-back


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## tfries

We have 64 Riesling vines, they are 4 years old. It looks like there is about 50lb of fruit on them. Might have enough for a 3 gallon batch.


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## Deezil

Sounds like a nice place to be, will be interesting to see how they progress the next few years


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## Deezil

SG Readings :

R-HST : 1.030
W15 : 1.026

The R-HST appears to be trying to clear, cant have that... Added 1.25g Fermaid-O, this damn yeast has "hollow legs" i think


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Is it possible to add "too much" yeast nutrients? Wondering what the rule of thumb is. I had no idea yeast required so much. Happy to hear the sulfur smell is gone though.


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## Deezil

Yeah its possible to overdo the yeast nutrient, but every yeast is different & i've never used this one but it seems to hold up to the fact that its a "medium" need, wheras more other yeasts ive used & looked at, are "low" nitrogen need

If you think of fermentation as a line graph... DAP (man-made sythetic/inorganic source of nitrogen) leads to a line that has really hard spikes (like a heartbeat monittor) in it - the yeast crave the DAP first, when they find it - they love it & they go nuts - fermentation temps rise, yeast activity rises, the population peaks... But after they chow-down on it for a while, it leads to a "lag phase" when they run out, as they search for a new source of nitrogen... 

When yeast feed on organic forms on nitrogen, they're more prone to a more-gradual, more-rounded fermentation where there isnt sharp peaks in yeast activity and must temp

After you're half way through the fermentation (not awake enough, pretty sure its 1/2 way), you dont want to add anymore DAP to your must because the yeast may not be able or may not be interested, in using it all.. & you dont want a bunch of excess DAP hanging around

You can add organic forms of nitrogen, when you can no longer add DAP - which is why its nice having both although i rarely use the DAP stuff


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Thanks Deezil,

I'm excited to see what the difference is between both yeasts you're using and how they individually affect the qualities of the Riesling you're fermenting. Exciting stuff.


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## Deezil

Just checked my email & had one waiting from another grower i contacted, letting me know he still had grapes & they're in cold storage... Was wondering if i wanted some still almost-delivered in early-Nov, and theres a high likelihood i'm going to say "yes" after some number-crunching (dont wanna leave him hangin, i know what that feels like)

So.. There's probably going to be a 2012 Riesling #2 

NOW what do i do!


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## ibglowin

Find a crusher/destemmer and press to RENT for one!


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## Deezil

ibglowin said:


> Find a crusher/destemmer and press to RENT for one!





I was wonderin' what you'd say


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## The_Wine_Gnat

What does 150lbs of Riesling grapes run for approximately? I have yet to figure that into my wine making budget. Still working on getting all my supplies to ferment and rack.


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## Deezil

I paid $1/pound, but some were $.50/pound.. Just depends on who ya get them from, if you drive out to get them, if you wanna pick them yourself (next year)..


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## Deezil

SG Readings : 

R-HST : 1.022
W15 : 1.020


So it looks like theres a chance i may be getting all 180lbs of Riesling, which would bring the seasonal total to 330lbs.. The readings from their test were 21.5 Brix & .75 % TA

There's a few different ways i could do this, and i dont know which way to go. 

Do i destem them all, and use another 2 different yeasts from R-HST & W15? 

Or... Do i look at the effects of destemming vs whole cluster pressing; whole cluster press the 180lbs & use R-HST & W15 again?

Or... Do i do something else, that i havent considered yet?

Thoughts?


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## ibglowin

I would try 2 more different yeast. Then down the road you can play with some blending bench trials.


D47
GRE
BA11


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> Just checked my email & had one waiting from another grower i contacted, letting me know he still had grapes & they're in cold storage... Was wondering if i wanted some still almost-delivered in early-Nov, and theres a high likelihood i'm going to say "yes" after some number-crunching (dont wanna leave him hangin, i know what that feels like)
> 
> So.. There's probably going to be a 2012 Riesling #2
> 
> NOW what do i do!



Well.. Scratch that. Guess the grapes started to brown for one reason or another, so the growers dont want to sell sub-par fruit. And i have to commend them for that, this day & age when anyone will do just about anything for a buck. There's always next year.


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.014
W15 : 1.012

Just made the mental-decision, since 2012 "fruit processing" for me is over - no new fruits coming in until next year - that im going to bypass my usual summer fermentating & instead focus more on getting things in order for grape harvest next year - crusher/destermmer, press, vinmetrica sc-300

Also have to try a couple Pinot Noir, Barbera, Merlot & maybe Pinot Gris - those are the other grapes i "could" have got my hands on this year, but didnt because Riesling stole my heart and i dont have enough exposure to the other varieties


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Riesling steals alot of folks hearts. How often are you stirring your carboys? When/if you are stirring, are you also stirring up the lees to help with the fermentation. Been reading about a couple different methods and curious which you prefer.


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## Deezil

I havent stuck anything inside the carboys except for the wine theif & hydrometer
And i've had the airlocks on since i took the low 1.020 SG Readings

I had been picking up the carboys and swirling them until that same airlock-day, as well.. Now they're just sitting.. The swirling was rather vigorous and would stir up all the yeast & lees at the bottom of the carboys

I usually only stir wines until i take the solids out, but that approach doesnt work well with my first white grape fermentation  no solids! So i figured when the airlocks went on and the wine was virtually protected, that it'd be alright to quit stirring things up


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.012
W15 : 1.010

............

No off smells
No off tastes


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.008
W15 : 1.006


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## tfries

We finally brought in our Rieslings yesterday. They were not very pretty. Probably a lot like what your grower did not want to sell to you. Anyway, we ended up with 130 lbs. After pressing and racking off the junk, ended up with 8 gal. The Brix came in at 19 and 3.1ph. I'll be using GRE yeast. This will be our first time for a Riesling.


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## Deezil

Your volume was a little higher, but sugar a little lower - did they see some rains?
First crop? Congrats!

Good luck with the GRE, i plan on trying that one next year


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.006
W15 : 1.004

The acidity tried to make me pucker up today 
Starting to stand out


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## Deezil

SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.003
W15 : 1.002


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Ohhh good acids? Do you know what the TA/pH levels are currently? Do you plan on back sweetening to balance the acids as well? 

Any perceived difference between the two yeast strains at this stage?


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## Deezil

Last nights SG Readings:

R-HST: 1.001
W-15: 1.001

The TA was somewhere between .50 - .60 % 
Wish i had a ph meter

Gonna cross the backsweetening obstacle next year, theres a chance this could make a very nice dry white wine & im not cancelling that out yet, gonna let it age some... There's a chance i'll backsweeten to some degree because i'd really like to see if this stuff can make it 5-10 years.

Big differences at this point, in the yeasts, its just difficult to differentiate with words 
I plan on doing better side-by-side once they're finished fermenting & i have a chance to degas them, that usually chances the profile drastically.


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## The_Wine_Gnat

Do you have the Allinonewinepump? I've heard it's quite good at degassing.


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## Deezil

I have a medical grade vacuum pump, its a similiar set up to the allinone, but i bought mine before he'd started selling his system... Does do a pretty good job at degassing


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## Deezil

SG Readings: 

R-HST : 1.001 
W-15 : 1.000

Pretty sure the R-HST is done.. Its starting to clear.. The W-15 is still going though


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## Deezil

Last nights SG Readings:

R-HST : 1.001
W-15 : 0.999


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## Deezil

Didnt take SG Readings

The R-HST is about 50% clear
The W-15 was beginning to clear

So i racked the R-HST into 1 gallons; 3 1/2 gallons of R-HST
Then racked the W-15 into 1 gallons; 3 1/3 gallons of W-15

Count my "spill" & i had somewhere between 7 & 7 1/2 gallon yield off of 150lbs of grapes, which aint too shabby considering my ..... circumstances? 

Into a 5-gallon carboy went:
2 1/2 gallons R-HST
2 1/3 gallons W-15
The 5 gallon is full to just-above the shoulder

1 gallon of both R-HST & W-15 set aside


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## ibglowin

That was pretty good all things considered!


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## Deezil

Had a change of heart..

Racked the Riesling to a 6-gallon carboy, topped up with R-HST & W-15
Added the rest of the R-HST to my Apple-Pear
The rest of the W-15 is in quart jars, for topping up during clearing

Figured the only sure-fire way to make sure i didnt blend away too much Riesling, was to put it in a bigger carboy while i still had the wine 

Gotta plan against my worst enemy... Myself.


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## Deezil

Been fun smelling this evolve so far

Didnt have a lot of smell to it since blending until about 3 days ago, where it smelled mostly of alcohol... Tonight there's apple/pear, stone fruit/peach/apricot, honey/nectar & a couple others i cant put my finger on..

Havent tasted it because i know its green/young & not worth wasting it


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## ibglowin

Riesling is a very quick drinker. I wouldn't be surprised for it to be ready to drink in ~3 mo.


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## Deezil

I hope to let this batch see a few years atleast

I just know i cant bottle it anytime soon, because i WILL drink it, ready or not lol


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## Deezil

Small update..

Been sitting in the 6-gallon carboy; i haven't touched it since i last mentioned.
There's a small dusting of fine particles lining the bottom of the carboy.

Still tastes young, but there's some apple and pear notes, with some honey and nectar type notes. The aroma is overwhelmingly the honey/nectar notes, smells very similiar to my RJS Riesling Ice Wine kit that way.

When i get the table back down here (sacrificed it for holiday festivities), i'll take a picture.


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## Deezil

Racked & sulfited the wine today

Have a small bit in the glass here..

Smells of apple, pear, honey, nectar - some citrusy note too

Still tastes a little green, but the apple and pear are starting to come through - theres a mineral flavor over the tongue with a green apple / pear flavor in the gums


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## ibglowin

Biggest question is how is the acidity on the tongue? It should be crisp. Did you back sweeten at all?


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## Deezil

It's crisp, but its not puckeringly tart.

I'm kinda worried about it, because im pretty sure the Apple-Pear i have going is going through a spontaneous MLF.. and this Riesling is bubbling like that, but only about half as much...

So i removed it from the sur lees, sulfited it & am going to see if it continues or subsides.. The room has been 68-69F consistently, lately... But it was on the concrete, on one layer of carpet, and we recently hit freezing temps outside at night so i wouldnt think its just naturally degassing.

Kinda at a loss..


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## ibglowin

Crisp and tart are two totally different things. It should be crisp on the tongue due to the amount of acid in the wine. Why would you think it would be going through a "spontaneous MLF"? Has your wine making area ever had any MLB in it? Has the wine been properly sulfited? I tasted a Riesling that a fellow winemaker put through an MLF experiment......

Not good!


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## Deezil

The unexplainable bubbles, sitting on sur lees for 5-6 weeks, dont have a surefire way to test SO2 so dunno how low it was

Actually read some good things about spontaneous MLF's in Mosel Rieslings, that were "good things", not that im wishing MLF on my Riesling

But i have this apple-pear wine, and i had these apples from my aunt and uncles house.. And that wines been acting really bubbly lately.. So i dunno if one wine can get another sick, but i imagine its not too far of a stretch - been sitting on sur lees since before thanksgiving too

The TA wasnt overly high when i tested it back-when anywho.. I think it has a bit to do with the last-minute rains we got - i could scroll back but i think the TA was only .60 %

Haven't backsweetened at all, forgot to answer that earlier

It tastes pretty good though..


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