# Go through MLF or not?



## geek (May 28, 2013)

I was going to buy the MLB culture today but then speaking to my vendor who's been making wines for a VERY long time, he asked me one first question: why you want to make your red wine go through MLF?

I replied that based on what I've been reading MLF is a good thing to convert the malic acid into lactic acid and such (which he already knew) and this would allow my wine to be more pleasant to mouth feel and taste, I explained that I have not been very happy with my reds as they tend to be off-flavor all the times and not much aroma and flavor.
I always used the pre-inoculated 6gal pails coming from California.

He advised that my problem could be something else, like off values for SO, TA or such and that MLF will not fix the root cause.

For those of you that have tried your reds with and without MLF, have you seen a REAL benefit?

I have no test kits at all to test for PH, TA or SO2 and I was thinking that getting a nice test kit would be out of my budget.
This guy is very knowledgeable and he seems to understand wines a lot and how to make them.

He insisted to not try MLF right now but instead get a wine kit this time and to carefully follow the instructions in the package for yeast, nutrient, oak, etc.

He also told me he can sell me whatever I need but be advised that the bacteria used for MLF stays in plastic and whatever plastic utensils I use to be only dedicated for future MLF batches and to NOT mix with anything else.

So......MLF or no MLF ?

..


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## Pumpkinman (May 28, 2013)

Varis,
I would put your Cab Sav and Merlot through MLF.
I don't understand why this person at the LHBS would tell you to make a kit knowing that you have two buckets already started.

His advice that your off flavors could be something else is very possible, but remember, with a PH meter you can test your PH and TA (I sent you the link), and I'm sending you the Titret Kit, you can get a better idea of what you may need or not need to do.

I've never heard that


> the bacteria used for MLF stays in plastic and whatever plastic utensils I use to be only dedicated for future MLF batches and to NOT mix with anything else.


I've heard that it remains in oak, such as barrels, but not in plastic.

It almost would appear that this guy has a bit of the "MLF Jitters". 
I would put that Cabernet Sauvignon and the Merlot through malolactic fermentation, don't be so apprehensive about it, a lot of people really over think it, it is a simple straight forward process, you will be happy with the end results.


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## geek (May 28, 2013)

He said that plastic, unlike glass, is porous and bacteria could well remain in it.

I trust you guys but then after speaking with him I kind of got thrown off; I guess the whole thing was about the need to have test kits very specially when doing MLF. He didn't really push me into making a kit, honestly.

This person is from the online store I buy stuff from.

I have the Cab and Malbec going in primary ferm right now.

He was stating that the cheap PH kits are not accurate so you'd be making adjustments based on false readings, specially when the PH reading has a short range (is it the PH?).

Anyhow, what got me off track was the kits needed but I will follow your advise and get me that ph55 and take it from there......


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## Deezil (May 28, 2013)

pH strips (the only thing I could see calling a kit for pH readings) are in-fact generally hit-or-miss.. But pH meters are correct when calibrated, and are generally easy-to-use.

TA (titritable acidity) kits are accurate, providing your chemicals are up-to-date.. And as Tom stated, you can run a TA measurement with a pH meter

But if you have made wine without any way to read TA or pH, I'm willing to bet most of your issues lie in those readings being off one way or the other.. 

When your acidity is off, it can affect the flavor in a dramatic way.. In the same sense that the amount of sugar in a wine can "all of the sudden" reveal flavors that you couldn't pick up prior to sweetening - acidity can also mute or accentuate flavors into existence. Too high of an acid level can skew flavors by being too tart, too low of an acid level and there's nothing to make the flavors "pop"


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## Turock (May 29, 2013)

I think the wines you are making really need the MLF. I would never like a Cab without it.

Regarding the MLB becoming resident---that's something to consider. We always do our MLF's away from the winery, in a glass carboy. It might even be possible for the MLB to contaminate a plastic stirring spoon if it's got many scratches in it. Maybe this is why many winemakers say they do MLF's on all their wines in order to prevent spontainious MLF's--because they have the MLB as a resident in their wineries, the same way that the yeast culture you most often use becomes a resident and you have spontainious ferments start before pitching your culture. We're always careful with our MLF's.


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## geek (May 29, 2013)

Also, my online supplier has the white labs wpl675 bacteria and mentioned is one of the best but you guys seem to favorite the Baccus.
Where can I get the Baccus (been looking around) and how much is a dose for a 6gal pail??


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## Pumpkinman (May 29, 2013)

I've personally heard a few negative remarks about WP675 MLB, I'd go with the Bacchus.
You can find Bacchus MLB at the Wine Makers Toy Store, one of our sponsors: http://www.finevinewines.com/XPListDet1.asp?MM_PartNumber=24912, if the link doesn't work, type in item number 24912 in the search box.
I've always added the MLB after I racked to a Carboy as well.


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## robie (May 29, 2013)

The idea of the MLB contaminating any plastic container is not extremely likely but I guess it is possible. Before each use, clean your plastic fermenter, put in a couple cups of Kmeta sanitizing solution, seal the fermenter lid, shack it up really well and let it set sealed for an hour. It's not likely the MLB could survive that. 

However, the whole idea is to treat your wine with the correct amounts of sulfites, so that an MLF cannot start, anyway. I realize that an MLF can start during alcoholic fermentation, before you get a chance to stabilize the wine with sulfites, but there will always be at least some free SO2 in the wine as a result of alcoholic fermentation, itself and these sulfites would tend to slow the start of MLF. Seems most home alcoholic fermentations typically finish in less than 2 weeks (more like 10 days) and should be followed immediately by adding sulfites. Not a lot of MLF activity could happen during such a short time frame, anyway.

Now, if you don't add sulfites to your wine after alcoholic fermentation, you likely should always do the MLF in a glass container and clean/sanitize it well after the MLF is completed.

I would always do an MLF on these reds, as long as they are not kit reds. never try an MLF on any kit wine.


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## geek (May 29, 2013)

10-4 guys, thanks to all of you for the good responses.


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## manvsvine (May 29, 2013)

If you clean you plastic carboys with a percarbonate based cleaner like barrel clean or unscented oxyclean it will be fine . High concentrations of so2 or powdered brewer wash will also work.

MLB is less robust than most spoilage bugs so if you can't get your plastic clean enough to be sanitary , throw them away and get glass or steel. The risk of spoilage bacteria and yeasts like myconderma is higher than the risk of resident MLB. 

Your off flavours are probably h2s related , my guess is that if you are not adding a complex nutrient like fermaid to your pails , your yeast is getting stressed from lack of nutrient . Stressed yeast is the number one cause of h2s , and h2s is the main cause of stinky wine. 
A heaping tsp of fermaid at the start of ferment will likely resolve your issues.

As for mlf , all non kit reds should go through mlf as a best practice , it not only softens the wine , it improves mouth feel and aids complexity. 

But the primary benefit is it will ensure the wine is microbialy stable when you bottle it , all the Malic will be consumed. This will prevent wild mlf from starting in the bottle as free so2 levels drop durring ageing . 

There are lots of posts on this forum of people scratching their heads because their wines went fizzy in the bottle . The cause is most likely wild mlf. 

If your pails were sterilized wild mlf is unlikely but doing mlf on red wines is still a best practice. Juice pail wines need all the complexity help they can get and the softer acid profile will make them easier to drink younger.


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## JohnT (May 29, 2013)

I think that you LWBS guy is correct in asking why you want MLF. It seems that his real question to you is "what problems are you having?".

That being said, I am a BIG fan of MLF! I can not imagine any wine that would not show at least some benefit from MLF, although this is a matter of taste. Reds certainly, and MLF chardonnay is simply awesome

I believe in the "Split batch" MLF only 1/2 a batch and compare. I am sure that you WILL agree that MLF sure takes one's wine to the next level. 

If you agree with all of the above, then what harm is there if MLB works into your plastic? What is the worst that could happen? So your next batch goes through MLF also?


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## Boatboy24 (May 29, 2013)

JohnT said:


> If you agree with all of the above, then what harm is there if MLB works into your plastic? What is the worst that could happen? So your next batch goes through MLF also?



No harm at all if you never do kits. I think that was the concern.

What's interesting to me is the suggestion made by the LBS to not do MLF and buy a wine kit instead. Sounds like walking into a car dealership to have your muffler replaced and having the dealership tell you that a new car is really what you need.


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## geek (May 29, 2013)

lol,

Unlike juice pails, he just mentioned that kits are balanced prior to shipping. 

Anyhow, another question: I am ready to order my Lalvin Bacchus MLB.
If I get it prior to primary fermentation is over, do/should I put the packets in freezer or room temp is ok as these packets are really sealed?
Anything else I need aside for the MLB that I need for the MLF?

Just making sure.


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## Boatboy24 (May 29, 2013)

Get some Acti-ML for hydration and Opti-Malo for nutrient.

I don't know if it was right or not, but I just kept Bacchus at room temp. In retrospect, the place I bought my juice from had it on the shelf, so I assume that's fine.


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## geek (May 29, 2013)

the Acti-ML is 5gr packet and the Opti-Malo is 12gr packet.
Do you put 1gr of each per 5 or 6gal?

I ordered the Lalvin Bacchus already, 2 packets for my 2 6gal batches.


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## sdelli (May 29, 2013)

Here is some good reading on this subject for you....

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wmlfinfo.pdf


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## yakhunter (May 31, 2013)

What a great thread!

My $0.02 and a couple of questions:...
1. I just had a batch of Chilean malbec that I have been nursing to adulthood for a year in bulk be likely ruined by adding sorbate. The issue was that it had gone through MLF and I am too new to know that you can't sorbate a wine that has gone through MLF. The Sorbate and the Lactic acid go through a chem reaction that gives you "geranium juice." Yuck. That said, it is not the fault of MLF (rather it is my fault). MLF has almost universally good reviews in my experience. I wonder if that is what the person recommending against it was thinking about. Learn from my experience: DO NOT ADD SORBATE IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT THE WINE THROUGH MLF! Experts, please chime in if I am wrong. 

2. Question: Why shouldn't you put kit wines thorugh MLF?
3. Question: I know a winemaker (commercial) who had a bunch of whites go inexplicably "fizzy" after bottling. Could this have been a rogue MLB in the winery that kicked in when SO2 levels dropped in the bottles? How would one prevent this if you were making whites and reds in teh same home or even room (as most of us do)? That is, how do you prevent MLF in your whites?


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## geek (Jun 1, 2013)

Based on what I read so far kit wines are not a good candidate for MLF because they're balanced before they ship them out.


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## sdelli (Jun 1, 2013)

Yes... I have heard the same. Kit wines go through some processes that are not a good candidate for MLF. Pure juice or grapes... Usually fine. The fizzy part... For the little I know I would say it needed to be de gassed. I use an all in one pump for a small amount of vacuum to accomplish that.... Or stir your butt off!


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## terroirdejeroir (Jun 2, 2013)

When I started my Yakima Valley Syrah juice pail back in December it seemed the consensus here was that MLF was not necessary. George at FVW told me the same thing. It is bulk aging now and I never added any fining agents or sorbate. Any thoughts on whether it would make sense to run it through MLF?


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## Turock (Jun 4, 2013)

Our Syrah is very good without the MLF. I'm not saying NOT to do an MLF on it, but the flavor profile on ours is so beautiful that I wouldn't want it to change. So if you're happy with the flavor, you might consider leaving it alone.


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