# Sulfur smell in wine



## goldnut (Feb 19, 2015)

I just racked some apple wine from the secondary. There is a terrible sulfur smell coming from it. Can I save this wine? This happened on some peach that I made before but I just pitched it. I would like to save this batch and I would like to know why this happens. I know one thing that might be causing it. I always cover my primary fermenter with a lid and I recently read that I should cover it with a towell to let the gasses out. I just racked mango out of the primary also, so I am worried that this is going to happen again. Any help is appreciated. Ken


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## sour_grapes (Feb 19, 2015)

The primary reason for having a rotten-egg sulfur smell is insufficient nutrients available during fermentation. If you want to see the long story on the mechanism, my conception of it is documented here: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/taste-too-much-kmeta-47245/#post535638

To deal with it, you should stir or splash rack, and probably add Reduless (available at MoreWine!).


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## goldnut (Feb 20, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> The primary reason for having a rotten-egg sulfur smell is insufficient nutrients available during fermentation. If you want to see the long story on the mechanism, my conception of it is documented here: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/taste-too-much-kmeta-47245/#post535638
> 
> To deal with it, you should stir or splash rack, and probably add Reduless (available at MoreWine!).



Thanks, I will splash rack today to a primary then back to the carboy. Should I do this several times? I am also going to order the Reduless today. Now about the nutrients. What determines the amount of nutrient that I need add to the recipe? I followed the recipe that I had and it called for 5tsp. Thanks Ken


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## Arne (Feb 20, 2015)

I used to have that problem quite often. It has pretty well gone away by using 1/2 the nutrient up front when the ferment is getting going and the other half when about a third of the sugar has been used up, with mine generally around 1.060 or so. Arne.


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## goldnut (Feb 20, 2015)

Thank you Arne, I will give that a try on my next batch. Ken


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## Bergmann (Feb 20, 2015)

if a simple splash rack does not do the trick. get a piece of NEW Copper tubing 3/8" diameter, about 6 to 10 inches long and place it on the end of your syphon hose. syphon the wine through it. this will help. if not post back.


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## goldnut (Feb 20, 2015)

I will try that. Thanks Bergmann


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## goldnut (Feb 20, 2015)

Well, I splash racked it to a bucket then an hour later racked it back to the carboy and ran it through a 10" copper pipe in the process. It still has a sulfur odor. Will it take a while to clear up or should I do this daily? Reduless has been ordered. Maybe I should wait to get it and try that next. Ken


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## Turock (Feb 20, 2015)

You should not use a copper pipe. This can put too much copper into a wine and that can be toxic. Remember--there's acids in wine which can really react with the copper. Always use Redulees because there's a safe copper level in it--only enough to get the job done.

Don't do too much splash racking as this can cause oxidation. Wait for the Redulees. 

To avoid this problem in the future, step-feed your nutrient in EVERY ferment--as was described above.


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## goldnut (Feb 20, 2015)

Thank you for the input Turock. I will wait for the Reduless.


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## PhilDarby (Feb 20, 2015)

Ive encountered this before myself and as has been said already, I suspect its a lack of nutrients available for the yeast, traditional cider is made from different apples and apart from the flavour, I suspect its to avoid the nutrient problem, although apple and grapes as a rule tend to have sufficient nutrients, I have experienced this a long time ago, while using an unknown type of single apple, from my mothers old apple tree.

people who seriously ferment apples, tend to use more than one apple type to do so.

If your problem remains, try using another apple type added to the must, ideally three or more different varieties should cure the problem.

My experience of peach, is, it tends to smell a lot before racking and clearing for a while as well, ive made peach wine that made me want to vomit initially, but, ended up very nice.

Just read your making mango as well, mango that ive fermented drops a lot of sediment if this happens don't worry, its normal, oh and for the record don't bin your brews, perciviere, because, the smells and other problems u have currently, will probably disappear, as they age, the only time I ever bin a wine is if it turns into vinegar and im sure there are people here who use that as well, for cooking and stuff, but, personally I don't have a use for gallons of vinegar.

Different fruits behave differently while fermenting, apple and grape are possibly the most predictable hence the cider and wine industry, but, fermenting other fruits is definitely worth while, oh btw if u want to ferment a fruit which struggles if u add some apple or grape it tends to help with nutrient problems and trace elements found in both grape and apple as a general rule.


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## Bergmann (Feb 20, 2015)

Uh you do realize Reduless is Bentonite and OH! Well!.... copper?


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## cdevrard (Feb 20, 2015)

I second (or third) the Reduless. I have used it on two batches now. One plum and one apple. Used per instructions, racked off after 72 hours. Sulphur GONE! Good stuff


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## Matty_Kay (Feb 20, 2015)

I also agree with Redulees treatment. I had to use it on Pinot Noir and was successful in removing the sulfur odor. It gives a controlled dose of copper.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 20, 2015)

Bergmann said:


> Uh you do realize Reduless is Bentonite and OH! Well!.... copper?



Yes, we all realize that (well, plus inactivated yeast). However, it is a fixed amount of copper. You cannot get a large dose from it.

I used to think using metallic copper in winemaking was no big deal, either, because we use it in pipes, right? That is until I looked in the literature to find the dissolution rates of copper as a function of _p_H.


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## Bergmann (Feb 20, 2015)

Paul: I understand that. However the research I have tells me that a wine with a pH of 3.2 exposed to the interior surface of a 3/8 inch diameter tube during the normal rate of fall required to maintain a syphon will result in less that 5 parts per billion. billion not million, this is why I specified 3/8 tubing. as a results one would have to drink 5 bottles of wine per day for in excess of 100 days for the body to uptake a sufficient amount of copper to overcome the copper disposed of by urination and defecation. The human body is adept an preventing the uptake of excess copper. and actually blocks uptake, more so that other toxins. so prolonged contact is requires, there is actually more risk of copper toxicity from water we bath in and drink that wine racked through it , or whisked with copper. 
But all that is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with being cautious. That is why I seldom recommend the use of copper sulfate. which is used by many wineries on a regular basis.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 20, 2015)

Bergmann said:


> Paul: I understand that. However the research I have tells me that a wine with a pH of 3.2 exposed to the interior surface of a 3/8 inch diameter tube during the normal rate of fall required to maintain a syphon will result in less that 5 parts per billion. billion not million, this is why I specified 3/8 tubing. as a results one would have to drink 5 bottles of wine per day for in excess of 100 days for the body to uptake a sufficient amount of copper to overcome the copper disposed of by urination and defecation. The human body is adept an preventing the uptake of excess copper. and actually blocks uptake, more so that other toxins. so prolonged contact is requires, there is actually more risk of copper toxicity from water we bath in and drink that wine racked through it , or whisked with copper.
> But all that is irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with being cautious. That is why I seldom recommend the use of copper sulfate. which is used by many wineries on a regular basis.



This is great to hear, Bergman. I would be interested to see your calculations. I freely admit that I did not carry through that exercise to that level; I just saw that the dissolution rates grow very rapidly with decreasing _p_H, and did not like where it was heading. I did not go so far as to calculate actual copper content expected.

I am confused by your comments about 3/8" tubing. Clearly, one would get _more_ copper by using smaller tubing than by using larger tubing. Did you mean, therefore, that you specified 3/8" tubing as opposed to, say, 1/4" tubing?

I would be very happy to be wrong about this. I hope you can convince me that I am.


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## ramfan13 (Feb 20, 2015)

Ok, this is my take on it.
I am by no means an expert at all, but I have done a couple of Apple wines. I had some horrible smell from it fermenting, I have heard it called Rhino farts. I was worried, but just added some extra nutrient and aerated it quite a bit. That is all I did. I kind of think people are complicating this too much. I believe that smell is common with fermenting apple juice especially if you used Montrachet yeast. 
Bottom line, the smell went away after a while and the wine turned out great. Let it run its course and it will be fine. This smell is common with apple wine


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## Bergmann (Feb 21, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> This is great to hear, Bergman. I would be interested to see your calculations. I freely admit that I did not carry through that exercise to that level; I just saw that the dissolution rates grow very rapidly with decreasing _p_H, and did not like where it was heading. I did not go so far as to calculate actual copper content expected.
> 
> I am confused by your comments about 3/8" tubing. Clearly, one would get _more_ copper by using smaller tubing than by using larger tubing. Did you mean, therefore, that you specified 3/8" tubing as opposed to, say, 1/4" tubing?
> 
> I would be very happy to be wrong about this. I hope you can convince me that I am.



They are not MY calculations, they are what I have on file. You see when I started making wine there was no such thing as the internet, Most of the information I have is from articles in magazines, and other printed media. loooong before Lallemand developed Redulees. Stored in plastic sleeves in 3 ring binders categorized and cross referenced by problem and cure. Although I cannot tell you exactly where the previous information came from I can tell you it is from a reference book or some sort of library book because I have it as a photocopy of book pages. 
I am not saying that there is anything wrong with Redulees, but I am not so naïve as to discount proven methods simply because the manufacture of a product points out risk well beyond the bounds of reason. It is by far to the advantage of the manufacture to bring to the forefront the risks of using free remedies no matter how remote the possibilities.
Did you know sugar consumption causes cancer in laboratory rats. I still use it. Because the dosages given to the rats were so high no human could ever eat enough sugar to get let alone die of cancer. 

I understand that PH effects dissolution, as well as the type of acid. Sulfuric would be disastrous. I also understand that the movement across the metal can cause electrolysis further facilitating dissolution. 

I am also no so much of a chicken little so as to believe the sky is falling whenever a rain drop hits my head. 

Wine makers have been using the method described or similar methods for a century. More wine makers have died from cirrhosis of the liver than from copper toxicity.

in reality what do we really know about Reduless? how much copper in terms of PPM does it impart into the wine. we do of course realize it could be as high as 1.3 mg per liter, and still be approved for human consumption. What is the source of the copper? Other than copper rich minerals we really do not know. And since bentonite removes the majority of the free form copper from the wine what risk does it impose in either case? 

"The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) in drinking water is 1.3 milligrams per liter. The MCL for copper is based on the expectation that a lifetime of consuming copper in water at this level is without adverse effect." (another quote, But again I cannot tell you from where)

Even though 1,3 milligrams is miniscule, I seriously doubt even a few rackings through copper tubing would make that level. But that is just my suspicion. I do not know that for a fact, as I am not a chemist. 
With that I will add I have used my trusty copper syphon as well as my copper whisk for decades on many an apple or peach wine they seem to be the only ones I have the problem with. Inherent of the fruit I suppose. With no ill effects. 
I would think I would be in a high risk category because I have milled Copper, brass, and bronze, for a great many years, I have drank coffee that washed the copper dust from my mustache straight down my throat. Although I do agree copper toxicity is real and can cause extremely serious problems. In this instance I think there is a gross over reaction to a minimal risk. 

I could be wrong, or maybe us old guys are just tougher than the younger generation!


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## Turock (Feb 21, 2015)

It should not be considered "common" to have a stinky ferment with ANY fruit. I have been making all types of fruit wines for many years and all of them have nice aromas during the ferment. The one thing I learned early on in my winemaking was how important nutrient was to a ferment and that it HAS to be step-fed so that the yeast is getting the nitrogen it needs,when it needs it. Start step-feeding nutrient---and do some studying on the role nutrients play--and you'll never have a stinky ferment again. Or a sluggish or stuck ferment.

Bergmann--In a forum, such as this, most members adhere to the idea of teaching new people "best practices." And this is why we discourage such DIY'ish things such as using a piece of copper to get rid of their H2S problems. We have no idea how many times they are using the pipe, on a wine. Many report doing it several times on one wine. It's not responsible of us to let this kind of practice go unchallenged. 

The use of copper fixes a problem. We experienced winemakers need to inform people that the real problem is lack of nutrient so that they have no need to ever use a piece of copper. No one should be having H2S problems for lack of the use--and timing of the use--of nutrient.


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## Bergmann (Feb 21, 2015)

Turock: Read some of my posts, I have and do strongly advocate the use of stepped in nutrients, at proper timing and slow fermentation, on many occasions.


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## goldnut (Feb 21, 2015)

I got my Reduless today and want to try it out BUT...I dont have a gram scale! It calls for .5 grams per gallon. Can anyone tell me a standard measurement that will work? Thanks I'm impatiently waiting so hurry up!!! LOL Ken


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## goldnut (Feb 21, 2015)

I went about measuring this different. Out of a 30 gram package I got 88- 1/8th tsp's. I figure that 3/8th is approx. 1 gram. Since the directions say to use .4-.6 grams per gallon, and I'm doing 5 gal, I figure that 2 1/8th tsp's should be OK. Anyone think different? Thanks


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## sour_grapes (Feb 21, 2015)

goldnut said:


> I went about measuring this different. Out of a 30 gram package I got 88- 1/8th tsp's. I figure that 3/8th is approx. 1 gram. Since the directions say to use .4-.6 grams per gallon, and I'm doing 5 gal, I figure that 2 1/8th tsp's should be OK. Anyone think different? Thanks



I think I come up with a different number. There is some room for confusion in discussing this in writing, so I will try to be very explicit.

You say you got "got 88- 1/8th tsp's" out of a 30 g. bag. I take that to mean you scooped your 1/8 tsp measure 88 times. This is supported by your surmise that 3/8 tsp is about 1 g.

If you want 0.5 g/gallon, and you have 5 gallon, you want 5gallon*0.5 g/gallon = 2.5 g.

To get 2.5 g, you would need 2.5g * 3/8 tsp/g = 0.9375 tsp, which can also be expressed as 7.5 scoops of a 1/8 tsp measure.


Another way to arrive at the same number is to say (2.5 g/30 g)*88 scoops = 7.33 scoops of a 1/8 tsp measure.

If it seems to you that I have misunderstood some of your original info, please let me know.


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## goldnut (Feb 21, 2015)

Sourgrapes, That is the number I came up with also-7.5 scoops. I dont know how I came up with 3- 1/8th's making a tsp. I should never drink wine while trying to do math! LOL I "WILL" use 7.5- 1/8th tsp scoops! Thanks for the correction.


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