# Is perfectly 'clear' wine impossible?



## Gekko4321 (Oct 17, 2012)

I have been making wine now for a few years and I cannot seem to achieve a 'clear' glass of wine in this hobby. I have used a variety of kits and brands and techniques and everytime I think I achieved it, time changes everything. Recently I made a RJ Spagnols EP Cab kit. I bulk aged it for 6 months. I then cold stabilized it for another month. I added the packet that keeps wine diamonds away for a year (even though I CS'ed). I filtered it not just once, but twice. The end result in the bottle was clear. But 3 months later there is minut traces of 'stuff' floating around within the wine. Maybe not noticable for many but visible if looking for it. I also did a white recently that I did all the above to and noted the same and then refiltered it all again and after 3 months it too repeated. It tastes fine BTW. I may be too picky but I was sold on this hobby that I could hand a bottle as a gift to a friend and have it look and feel and taste like a wine off the store shelf. Im missing the 'look' part of that and was wondering if it is inevitable that these wine will drop sediment in time or if I am missing something else. I would be interested in hearing from people who are rather picky about appearance or experienced enough to provide me some insight. Thank you!


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## Deezil (Oct 17, 2012)

It might be in your degassing procedures, hard to be completely positive

You mention that the particles are "floating around" & it would take CO2 to keep things suspended otherwise you'd find it all on the bottom of the carboy

I use a vacuum pump to degas & i've had wines that cleared 2 days after finishing fermenting - my pear wine being the latest example... But i've also had wines that took over 12 months to clear, even when degassed - like my gold raspberry

Could be a degassing thing.. But its most definitely a patience thing...

The kits should come out clear, with enough patience - even if they have to finish degassing on their own.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 17, 2012)

I should have been more clear but they are floating probably because I am lifting the bottle to see. Otherwise I am sure they are at rest. I degas using both vacuum pump and stirring with drill. No bubbles within. Regardless, after degassing, they bulk age for 6 months. Should be clear by then and is. And again it is clear in bottle. In time is when it changes. What causes the change?


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## TonyP (Oct 17, 2012)

There's sort of three questions embedded in what you ask and I'll try to offer my perspective on all. If you're asking about "clear" wine as in wine terminology, the answer is yes. Although I've never won a well known amateur wine competition, many wine makers do and those competitions judge clarity, as well as other factors. So, yes, it's possible. Is it easy, yes, within limits. With patience, good racking techniques, and filtering equipment, excellent results can be achieved.

If you're asking about diamonds, it doesn't sound like that's your problem.

Concerning your particular issues, I have a few thoughts. First, make certain everything is clean before you use it. Second, I don't believe filtering is designed to correct cloudy or unclear wine. Make certain the wine is clear before you filter it. In other words, if the sediment is continuing to increase wait.

If all else fails, use colored bottles 

Tony P.


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## robie (Oct 17, 2012)

Once rally clear, I can't imagine why your wine would not stay clear, unless it has something to do with temperature changes, but that's one reason why you cold stabilize.

Especially if you are filtering the wine!!! If the wine is not clear, filtering will just stop up the filters very quickly.

Concerning whites, my two carboys of two different sources of chardonnay are 8 to 12 months old and clear as can be. I see no reason why that should change once bottled.

Again, it could be a change in temperature is causing dropping tartaric crystals to drop. I guess it could be haze forming from temperature change, also.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 17, 2012)

I once thought it was my lower end filter (gravity based) being flawed, but it does enter bottle clear. It is not wine diamonds. My equipment is insanely clean as I try to be a perfectionist. Wine was clear as a bell in carboy and in bottles. Someone once said to me that all wines continue fallout no matter what over time. If true, I am surprised it was so soon. Those of you with 'clear' wines, have you ever held up to a light and really looked at it. Like I said, you would think mine was clear until you looked closely. I live in Southern California and my house temp is around 68-70 much of the day.


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## Deezil (Oct 17, 2012)

My first batch, peach wine.. I bulk aged it for 18 months.. Didnt use any clarifers nor did i filter it (should have) but once i bottled it, each bottle had enough sediment to barely cover the cork (i stored the bottles upside down)

Since then, it hasnt dropped anymore.. I'm pretty sure that was the end-of-the-end but until i agitated the wine into the bottle, it didnt lose the last few flakes... 

Looked clear for 6 months in the carboy, prior to bottling. I was a bit shocked... They dont continue to fallout "forever" but they'll do it past the point where you thought they'd be done

Thats what we get for thinkin


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## TonyP (Oct 17, 2012)

I agree with the comment you heard that wines continue to generate sediment over time - in my experience, particularly reds. In fact, many consider sediment (as with diamonds) to be a good thing. After all, aging is the result of chemical reactions and a by-product of that process can be sediment from tartaric crystals, tannins and other compounds. This is a large part of the basis for decanting.

I've made RJS red kits, but never the EP Cab., so perhaps someone with experience will comment on this. The difficulty I have is with the timing. The original posting mentioned, "3 months later there is minut traces of 'stuff' floating around within the wine". To me that's just too early for the wine to have noticeable sediment.

Tony P.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 17, 2012)

I have had the RJS EP Sauvignon Blanc and EP Cabernet Sauvignon and the Cellar Craft Showcase Zinfandel all do this. I bought the higher end juices too to make sure things like this did not happen. I will enjoy drinking all of this for sure, but the idea of handing a bottle to someone as a source of pride is pretty much gone. Most people are not used to seeing 'unclear' wine in the U.S., so when you tell someone an 'amateur' (me) made it and it is not perfectly clear, I suspect people will be a bit uneasy with this. Just my thoughts.


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## Deezil (Oct 17, 2012)

Another thing worth understanding...

These higher end kits have a higher degree of TDS (total dissolved solids) so theres going to be more sediment that will drop out over a longer period compared to kits containing more concentrates/lower end... 

the high TDS is also one of the reasons these kits take longer to age (+/- 2yrs)..

I wouldnt let it sap your source of pride, instead i'd try to find some more patience, or maybe even forgetfulness - let 'er sit & expect some more fluffy sediment

With all the wines i've made (granted i dont use much for clarifiers, and not many of them have been kits) the last of the sediment is always really fluffy, and very easy to disturb... I usually stop siphoning before reaching/disturbing the sediment & will put sediment+all into a quart jar for additional settling.. 

In the end, i still lose a little wine but i isolate the sediment into quarts whenever i can


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks Manley. My primary issue with your suggestion is I have already bottled, sealed, and labeled these wines. I actually pulled the corks on 'em all after 9 months to refilter when I first saw the issue arise. I thought my filter failed me. Risky but I SO2'ed and did not seem to hurt the wine. And here it is all over again. Working around the labels was treacherous as many got stained on the rebottle. I tried to fix it with much, much effort but to no avail. In the future I suppose I need to bulk age for 2 years but I am not convinced it would not still happen again. Tougher hobby than I expected. Beer was so much easier!


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## Deezil (Oct 17, 2012)

Well...

How old are they / When did you start the ferment?

How long have they been in bottles?

Just wondering if theres enough time still to take it all out and bulk age it for a significant amount of time; if its worth the hassle

Wine just takes more time than beer, all the way around.. Not really any harder, i dont think


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## TonyP (Oct 18, 2012)

Gekko4321 said:


> I have had the RJS EP Sauvignon Blanc and EP Cabernet Sauvignon and the Cellar Craft Showcase Zinfandel all do this. I bought the higher end juices too to make sure things like this did not happen. I will enjoy drinking all of this for sure, but the idea of handing a bottle to someone as a source of pride is pretty much gone. Most people are not used to seeing 'unclear' wine in the U.S., so when you tell someone an 'amateur' (me) made it and it is not perfectly clear, I suspect people will be a bit uneasy with this. Just my thoughts.



I feel your pain and agree with everything you say. I'm proud of the wine I make and enjoy people's reactions to the wine I give away.

I have one last thought I'm hoping you'll consider and maybe it will help you solve your problem. Do you think the wine would be clear after 9 months in the carboy instead of 6 in the carboy and 3 in the bottle? For wine to have even minute stuff a few months after bottling, there's only two possibilities:

1. The wine wasn't clear when you bottled it or
2. The wine was clear but some foreign stuff found it's way into the wine.

If you're satisfied the wine was clear in the carboy and has been properly degassed, your equipment and bottles are clean, and you racked properly, the only possibility I can see is the filtering process.

Tony P.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi Tony and Deezil. Thanks for the replies. I bulked the SB, Cab, and Zin for 6 months each. I had one cab I bottled right away without bulking. Prior to that I followed manufacturer instructions and if given the choice took the longer route in steps. When I degassed, I did it longer than I should and I used 2 methods-vacuum and drill stir. And that was prior to bulking. I CS'ed all for 1 month. Now I am 13 months removed from beginning on SB, 15 months on cab, and 11 months on Zin. Diff is bottle time really. I already pulled corks and refiltered most. My suspicions led me to 3 possible things. #1, Cold stabilization. I only could achieve 33-35 degrees for the month. I wondered if that was low enough. I still put in the packet to suspend crystal formation in each batch. #2, I wondered if my filter worked. It is gravity fed Vinbrite. The pad would be stained but I never noticed any real observable sediment in pad. Pads not torn once I learned that issue. I wondered if the stuff in wine was filter fibers. But, again, in bottle and week or two after, before putting away, there was no sediment or residue in wine. #3, bad corks. I additionally had 'floaties' on top of wine that I learned came off the corks. So when I refiltered, I used 4 brands of corks to see if that was the issue. The floatie part seemed to be attributed to certain corks. Let me know if this info helps.


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 14, 2013)

Just an update to this post I started. I rebottled and refiltered and added another 1/4 teaspoon of K meta. I choose that amount just due to readings I got from Accuvin strip. First 2-3 weeks, I held various bottles up and closely inspected and all was clear. Around one month mark, the white specks were back. I thought they might be corks at one point but I had used 4 different ones this time and still same problem. I thought maybe putting foil capsules on with heat gun might have done it, so I did not add them this time. Still the white specks. Wine tasted fine and still does, but the presentation is bothersome to me. Might not bother us hobbyists but I think it would others. My only theory left is it is an inescapable aging thing.


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## Putterrr (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't filter. I have read on here that those that do and use a better filtering setup than the Vinbrite, also use filter pads that are in the 1 micro range and even smaller. I cant see how your filter can come close to this with simple pads as compared to the whole house filter cartrige. Maybe you could try the filter setup mentioned here 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/review-whole-house-wine-filtering-36589/


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## cpfan (Feb 15, 2013)

Gekko4321 said:


> Just an update to this post I started. I rebottled and refiltered and added another 1/4 teaspoon of K meta. I choose that amount just due to readings I got from Accuvin strip. First 2-3 weeks, I held various bottles up and closely inspected and all was clear. Around one month mark, the white specks were back. I thought they might be corks at one point but I had used 4 different ones this time and still same problem. I thought maybe putting foil capsules on with heat gun might have done it, so I did not add them this time. Still the white specks. Wine tasted fine and still does, but the presentation is bothersome to me. Might not bother us hobbyists but I think it would others. My only theory left is it is an inescapable aging thing.


I haven't made many EP kits, but my understanding is that even with cold stabilization, wine diamonds will form.

What are these white specks like?

Steve


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## John Prince (Feb 15, 2013)

I ferment to dry, then rack. Then in 4 months I rack again, then I rack again in 4 months. I do cold stabilizing and filter my wine. Kits clear okay. Fruit wines get some protein haze if you squeeze the fruit too hard.


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 15, 2013)

If my filter was not good enough then why is the wine clear for 3 weeks before specks appear? Specks, fibers, it just floats around inside. I also bulked aged and racked a few times. They do not appear to be wine diamonds. Ive seen those in my reds and they are not the same.


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## btom2004 (Feb 15, 2013)

Are you cleaning or running water/sulfites through your filters before filtering wine? 

I've read that those floating particles or specks, could actually be filter particles coming off of your filter and into your wine when you run wine through it. 

Try running a few gallons of water first before you filter the wine. This also helps the filter by presoaking it and it catches the wine particles better. 

@Check your filters for small tears. This may be the cause as well. The filter may be letting particles through and not filtering well or at all.

@Some filters are not reusable. Get some new ones.


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## saramc (Feb 16, 2013)

1. The wine itself is clear though, other than the white flecks that are appearing? Or is the wine also hazy? 
2. What temperature are you storing this wine at? Wondering if this is a heat stabilization issue. And all of your problematic wines are stored at this temp?
3. Have you been using k-meta granules exclusively or Campden tabs?
4. Is there any chance you added the chitosan/kieselsol in wrong order?
5. What are you using to clean/sanitize, do you rinse?
6. Are your filter pads being re-used or a one time use and toss?

And this has happened with every kit you have made? Are you deviating from the kit instructions at all, skipping something, adding something?

Can you attach a photo of a bottle with a light source behind plus a sample in a glass?

Call me crazy but is cold stabilization a normal process for any of these kits? I looked at the instructions for the RJS EP kit and saw no reference to cold stabilization, just storage below 60F (which is common and helps expedite clearing).

Great article by Lum Eisenman on Clarification/Stabilization @ http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...-maDfrKCETs39d8wg&sig2=foJC5y6EcfvxH7BFhTNGJg


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## Chiumanfu (Feb 16, 2013)

I had the exact same thing happen in a EP Pinot Grigio. Bulk aged 6 months, filtered before bottling with WHF 1 micron. Only half the batch was affected.

Joe also describes it here...
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/dirty-wine-23805/

I never did find a reason.


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 17, 2013)

BTOM, I run bottled water thru the filter as recommended before using. I also note no fibers in the bottle for 3 weeks so not a filter issue. I also have no tears in filter.


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 17, 2013)

Saramc, I note no issue initially, just after 3 weeks plus. It is harder to see in reds but easy in whites. I use K meta granules. I have sanitized with both k meta and star san. Same issue. I never mix up instruction process. I never would reuse a filter pad. Who would? When I got to max frustration I spoke with George. He told me that kit wines could never be clear like commercial wines. This was the opposite of what he told me when he helped me get into this hobby. I enjoyed the 3 wines I made but ultimately was disappointed that with ALL the work and study I could not emulate a simple, cheap wine in presentation. This hobby is hard!


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 17, 2013)

Also, Cold stabilization is rec'ed on most boards to get rid of wine diamonds which are inevitable in kit wines. Whites they are obvious. Chemicals are sold to 'delay' the onset in RJ Spagnols wines but it is argued whether it works. I did CS and added chemicals in some to see and they all got it within 6 months. I find that issue to be seperate of 'stuff' floating in wine. I personally think most hobbyists arent this particular in presentation. Either they dont care or simply been doing it so long they dont notice.


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## saramc (Feb 17, 2013)

If the additive is metatartaric acid, the bottled wine needs to be stored below 68F to keep crystals from forming for up to 18 months. Didn't you say you are storing at house temp, typically 68-70?
Also, if the metataric acid is added when fining agents are on board or added before filtration the effect can be impacted. Typically added after racking/filtering and just prior to bottling. Could this be part of it?


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 18, 2013)

I added the meta acid prior to bottling 6 months after fining agents added. I added it 24 hours prior to adding one last dose of K meta but was advised that was not an issue. I do filter as last step before bottling. I would doubt Vinbrite filter would block meta acid though. I do store at house temps of 68-70, yes.


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## Midwest Vintner (Feb 18, 2013)

We have had some settling issues also. Our problem is we use whole fruits and getting the solids out is a major pain. We are working at fixing it, but it is hard to change temps (like cold stabilizing) when you have already bottled wine that hadn't been cold stabilized (aging). Just not enough storage. We have got it to minor amounts in the bottom, but it just looks bad when selling a wine and it shakes up a small cloud. All of the bottles are not affected nor all the wines though. Just some of the wines and bottles. 

Solutions.
Time. Due to limit storage, we can't keep too much on hand of both bulk or bottled. It's selling too fast to get everything in "sync" to be able to do batches just once a year. We have 100, 200 and 300 gal tanks.

Stabilization. Like others have stated, cold/warm works. First warm, to pull out CO2. Then cool/cold to both settle and/or remove diamonds. Some wines are better left with the extra acidity. Cold stabilizing every wine is not always the best way (although might be easier). That is up to you. Cooling will help drop solids, but it doesn't necessarily mean dropping it low enough to form "wine diamonds"

Fining agents. We have used bentonite, but we are limited. When we used to make homemade wine, we used others that are faster and a little easier to use. They do work, especially if you can identify what is causing the haze.

Filtering. It does work, BUT you can over filter. I personally have been recently experimenting with different stages. I have concluded that it does work, BUT each wine is different and some filters may or may not be enough. I have used everything from 10 micron to .22 in stages and sometimes twice through. All of which are only the 95% NON-absolute type filters. Even the .22 didn't FULLY clear a wine, which was the last one in which will ever have any dust (very minor, but annoying!). I will, in the future use absolute filters on stubborn wines for fine filtering. Our wines have lots of fruit, but I can without a doubt, notice changes in wines filtered down to even 1 micron on a NON-absolute filter. It does change the wine color and taste, but maybe that is because our wine has so much.  

In conclusion, in my somewhat professional opinion (lol), I think the BEST answer is all of the above. I placed them in order I think should they should be used. If you have experience with that variety, you can get a better grasp on which works best for it. I like filtering as it's fast and easily controlled, but it is a last resort. In my honest opinion, commercial wineries are sometimes too worried about looks of a wine. I am most concerned with flavor. Commercial sized batches are MUCH more difficult to clear and that is why filtering is so common. This is a major advantage of homemade wine. No pressure. Plus, IMO, haze won't kill you.  Do you really want your drink triple filtered, treated and half way frozen? Maybe I just see wine different? I like it as LEAST treated as possible! That's just how I see it. I like my steak med-rare on the closer to rare side, though too.


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## Gekko4321 (Feb 19, 2013)

"Do you really want your drink triple filtered, treated and half way frozen?"
Great way to frame it and good point! Ha ha. I agree flavor is paramount, but I think when one is new to the hobby, they want to share/show off their work also, and that is where presentation does matter.


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## Midwest Vintner (Feb 20, 2013)

Gekko4321 said:


> "Do you really want your drink triple filtered, treated and half way frozen?"
> Great way to frame it and good point! Ha ha. I agree flavor is paramount, but I think when one is new to the hobby, they want to share/show off their work also, and that is where presentation does matter.



Very true, but if it isn't that good tasting, the looks are unimportant. A crystal clear wine that tastes bad because you oxidized it trying to filter it 3 times, treated it with too much chitosen/ bentonite/ pectic enzyme/ etc.(not likely but is possible) and cold stabilized isn't a great idea either. 

My basic point is this. Let it sit! You can degas (I splash rack, but vacuum filtering is best) it after fermentation has been done for a month (just to make sure - this would actually be your 2nd racking after it has already been under air lock) and add a little sulphite. Let it sit for however long it takes to drop out. If you don't see ANY clarity improvements after 3 months, then start working on it. If you are seeing stuff drop, it will clear eventually. I had had stubborn homemade wines sit for over a year. We RARELY filter and rarely had any sediment at all with making whole fruit wines. It was only when we jumped up to 100+ gallons that it's gotten more tricky.


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## Sammyk (Mar 3, 2013)

*whole house filter*

Does anyone have a model number or something to identify which model you are using? And where to purchase?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 3, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> Does anyone have a model number or something to identify which model you are using? And where to purchase?



Just ordered this yesterday from FiltersFast:

Order Details:
158116 Pentek 158116 10" Slim Line Fi 
PD-5-934 Ametek, US Filter PD-5-934, WP 
244047 Pentek 3G SL Bracket Kit for S 
PD-1-934 Pentek PD-1-934 Polydepth Filt 
SW-1A Pentek SW-1a Filter Wrench, WW 

PD-5 is the 5 micron filter. PD-1 is the 1 micron.


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