# Nortons in SW Missouri SG/Brix?



## runswithsizzers (Sep 30, 2018)

I am trying to decide when to pick my first crop of Nortons (Cynthiana). I have no experience in monitoring these grapes (or any others) as they ripen.

On September 19 my refractometer readings were about SG = 1.085; Brix = 20. I have been checking every couple of days since then, and there has been no change over past 10 days. 

I was hoping for higher readings, but I am beginning to think they are as ripe as they are going to get. Can anyone say if Nortons produce higher readings than these - sometimes? usually? or always?

Quite a few clusters are showing signs of wrinkled berries, dropped berries, ect. Should I pick now, or hold out for better numbers?


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## cmason1957 (Sep 30, 2018)

I live in mid-Missouri, outside St. Louis. A few of the grape growers around here have picked Norton already, some have not. Two that I know of had 22 Brix at harvest. But, if you are seeing wrinkled berries and dropped berries, it sounds more about time to pick to me. Have you checked your ph/ta?


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## runswithsizzers (Sep 30, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I live in mid-Missouri, outside St. Louis. A few of the grape growers around here have picked Norton already, some have not. Two that I know of had 22 Brix at harvest. But, if you are seeing wrinkled berries and dropped berries, it sounds more about time to pick to me. Have you checked your ph/ta?



Thanks for your helpful reply.

On Sept 15 I picked enough berries to float my hydrometer so I could be sure if I could trust my new refractometer. At that time, my pH was about 3.7, according to Accuvin test strips (range = 3.0-4.0).

I also checked total acid by titration with NaOH and got around 4.5-4.8 as tartaric. However, I have read that Norton/Cythiana must should be pre-heated to 165F before testing, and I did not do that, so my acid number may be low.

The suggestion (he says requirement) to pre-heat Norton must before testing was given by Dr. Gary Main, University of Arkansas in a paper titled "_Growing and Vinting Cynthiana/Norton Grapes_" which was presented at the 24th Annual Horticulture Industries Show in Fort Smith, Arkansas. <link to paper here> starting on page 77. I have not yet verified if his suggestion is commonly accepted practice or not.

Dr. Main also says in that paper:
"_The primary focus of Cynthiana viticulture is to pick the fruit at 24% soluble solids_..." but I'm trying to find out it that is a realistic expectation for me.

I have posted this question over in winemaking; is it common practice to pre-heat Norton must before testing, or not? <https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/norton-cythiana-testing-pre-heat-or-not.66796/>


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## cmason1957 (Sep 30, 2018)

I haven't ever heated Norton or any other prior to doing tests. I don't think any of my friends have either. As to your ph,test strips aren't generally useful and trying to determine the color change visually in as dark a red as Norton usually means you will read low. I would try to get a pH meter to do both measurements.


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## stickman (Sep 30, 2018)

I don't have experience with Norton, but it looks like a good article that is specific to Norton grapes. It does highlight that you cannot apply standard practice to Norton. You have to try the TA again using the recommendation regarding heating the must.


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## runswithsizzers (Sep 30, 2018)

stickman said:


> I don't have experience with Norton, but it looks like a good article that is specific to Norton grapes. It does highlight that you cannot apply standard practice to Norton. You have to try the TA again using the recommendation regarding heating the must.


I will test again tomorrow, both pre-heated and not. I usually would not consider one source to be the final word, so I was hoping to find some other sources to corroborate the article by Dr. Mains.

I am afraid I have not really done my homework, busy time of year and all that. Maybe next year I will be better prepared.


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## runswithsizzers (Sep 30, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I haven't ever heated Norton or any other prior to doing tests. I don't think any of my friends have either. As to your ph,test strips aren't generally useful and trying to determine the color change visually in as dark a red as Norton usually means you will read low. I would try to get a pH meter to do both measurements.



I squeezed some juice through cheese cloth, which was only mildly pink - and the Accustrips indicate pH in shades of blue and green.

And actually, the endpoint of the titration was less ambiguous than I expected. While the phenolphthalein flashed pink as I added the NaOH, the final color change of the solution was more of a blue-green than pink.

But yes, I hear what you are saying about pH strips. I was hesitant to mention that I had checked pH, because I don't have much confidence in pH strips.

I don't mind the expense of a pH meter, but I need to read up about maintenance. I started working in a hospital laboratory in 1995, and at that time pH meters were notoriously difficult to maintain. They required keeping several levels of calibration solutions which had sort shelf life. Soon after I started working, someone decided it wasn't worth the hassle to keep a properly calibrated pH meter in lab, considering how rarely we needed it. Hopefully, modern pH meters are more reliable (?)


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## cmason1957 (Sep 30, 2018)

Most pH meters require two calibration solutions and then a storage solution. I calibrate mine most times before I use it. Takes under 2 minutes. I buy the preformulated solutions, not something I have to mix up.

Also fwiw, I don't even bother measuring ta in Norton, just pH. I know ta is off the charts. So much malic acid.


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## runswithsizzers (Oct 1, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> Most pH meters require two calibration solutions and then a storage solution. I calibrate mine most times before I use it. Takes under 2 minutes. I buy the preformulated solutions, not something I have to mix up.
> 
> Also fwiw, I don't even bother measuring ta in Norton, just pH. I know ta is off the charts. So much malic acid.



Other than as a metric when deciding if the Nortons are ripe, what else is the pH good for? If it's a little too high, do you actually try to adjust it? It's been many years since I've tried to make wine from grapes, but as I recall I never had much luck when trying to adjust pH.


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## CK55 (Oct 1, 2018)

runswithsizzers said:


> Other than as a metric when deciding if the Nortons are ripe, what else is the pH good for? If it's a little too high, do you actually try to adjust it? It's been many years since I've tried to make wine from grapes, but as I recall I never had much luck when trying to adjust pH.


My opinion is that if ph is good roll with it if its massively low then yeah you might want to change it then. Again this is my opinion.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 1, 2018)

CK55 said:


> My opinion is that if ph is good roll with it if its massively low then yeah you might want to change it then. Again this is my opinion.


My opinion as well. For me, pH 3.2-3.8, sugar around 22, time to make some wine. TA will be very high. Norton just has so much malic acid.


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## CK55 (Oct 1, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> My opinion as well. For me, pH 3.2-3.8, sugar around 22, time to make some wine. TA will be very high. Norton just has so much malic acid.


I have been trying to find a source for Norton vines here in california as i would like to have some but its been a nightmare all the providers wont ship to california even though they are certified to be clean and able to ship to california. 

I have heard from multiple people that norton is loaded with malic.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 1, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I have been trying to find a source for Norton vines here in california as i would like to have some but its been a nightmare all the providers wont ship to california even though they are certified to be clean and able to ship to california.
> 
> I have heard from multiple people that norton is loaded with malic.


If I lived anywhere that could routinely grow vinifera grapes, I certainly wouldn't plant Norton. It makes an OK wine, but not great. Not even the best of them. Most have a bit of a bite to them. I much prefer Chambourcin, but even that ain't the same as vinifera. One grape you might want to try, Crimson Cabernet. It's a cross between Norton and Cabernet Sauvignon, the t breed places I know of in Missouri that make it are wonderful.


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## CK55 (Oct 1, 2018)

I


cmason1957 said:


> If I lived anywhere that could routinely grow vinifera grapes, I certainly wouldn't plant Norton. It makes an OK wine, but not great. Not even the best of them. Most have a bit of a bite to them. I much prefer Chambourcin, but even that ain't the same as vinifera. One grape you might want to try, Crimson Cabernet. It's a cross between Norton and Cabernet Sauvignon, the t breed places I know of in Missouri that make it are wonderful.


I might give it a look but I do really want some Norton vines. Ive got enough vinifera.


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