# Primary fermentation



## meadman77 (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi everyone.
My first post but have been reading for a while. I'm primarily interested in making fruit wines. The appeal is in experimenting and making something that might surprise people when they taste it. So far I have made a Joes Ancient Orange Mead and an Orange wine. Both turned out quite well but I know I still have a lot to learn. There is something fundamental to winemaking that I struggle to get my head around. It is the idea of having an open container for the primary fermentation for up to 7 days and then transferring into a secondary fermentation container with an airlock. I can't understand what this achieves. I have done some searching on the reason behind this but found very little. I mean we put all this effort into sterilising equipment and sometimes even the fruit, only to put it in a container where it may be exposed to all sorts of wild microbes from the atmosphere. I understand that yeast thrives with some oxygen in the early stages of fermentation, which is why we should shake the vessel or stir daily, but surely leaving the vessel open does not achieve that much oxygenation. In fact some people say that a layer of CO2 protects the liquid from spoiling during the second fermentation, but surely a small draught would displace this and leave the wash open to contamination. 

So my question is, why would it be beneficial to do the primary fermentation in an open vessel rather than sealing the vessel and fitting an airlock right from the start?

The only possible reason I can think of is that it makes it easier to stir daily and break up the cap during the early stages (you don't have to open the lid). 

Great forum! Thanks for answering my noob question.

Cheers,
Mark


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## jensmith (Jan 28, 2015)

The short answer. Leaving the cover off and using a towel instead of airlocking it alowes gasses to escape. During fermentaion lots of gasses are formed. If airlocked the gasses have a slower time escaping, causing the wine to smell and taste bad. Kinda like after baked beans farting in a very small room with no windows.... This does not make for a pleasent wine!


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## cmason1957 (Jan 28, 2015)

Welcome to Winemakingtalk.com. Good first question. Let me start by saying lid locked down with an airlock or open (covered to keep dust and debris out) either one will work and will produce good wine. 

Why do I choose open ferment, I can site it daily and I usually have something (fruit, grapes in a bag, oak) that I want to make sure it's kept wet and punched down every day and usually twice or three times a day. There is plenty of CO2 coming off to keep the oxygen from getting into the wine. Since the yeast like oxygen at that stage let them have it. I do always add some metabisulfite to kill off the rather weak local yeasts, it has very little effect on the cultured yeast we add to produce all alcohol. 

One misconception I did read in your post, we do not sterilize things, we clean them and sanitize them.


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## meadman77 (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. So in short, allowing the wash to have access to the atmosphere does not cause a risk of spoiling the wine and does allow better access to knock the cap down etc. So what do you usually use to cover it.. just a freshly laundered towel draped over the top? Do you leave it in the primary fermenter for no longer than 7 days?

P.s. I know it is a different topic, but how critical in your opinion is it to use metabisulfite etc to kill off wild yeasts in the fruit? I am quite sensitive to preservatives and am convinced that I react badly to some red wines due to the SO2 content. Some say that adding it at this early stage has no lasting effect on flavour, that the sulphur compounds integrate into the wash over time and that it is very different to using large amounts later to stabilise the wine....


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## Deezil (Jan 28, 2015)

A clean towel or an old but clean t-shirt - the ones that turn into towels - would be perfect. It's what I use.

How long they stay in the primary vessel depends on the speed of the fermentation. There's a slow point where you can ferment under an airlock most of the time, by running it cooler, but this is usually deliberate / planned out. In most cases, most people here would rack to a carboy below an SG of 1.020, and some wait til it ferments dry; but it all depends on the strength and speed of the ferment. What you don't want, is the pressure to build, blow that airlock off because it clogged with debris, and have a volcano repaint your ceiling for you.

The SO2 that you add pre-fermentation, becomes mostly bound up in the must/juice, but what doesn't become bound knocks down any wild yeast or other microorganisms.. but yeast are generally more sensitive to the SO2 than you are, so it has to dissipate/evaporate before fermentation even will begin. Add in the time involved in the wine making process, and additional aging time after - it won't be that initial dose that irritates you. A lot of commercial wines push the limits of the amount of SO2 they can legally add to the wines and still sell them, so realize that what is irritating you is probably the upper threshold of 'smart', and not necessarily what you would end up with at home.

Less sulphites means you'll need to keep the wine making environment cleaner, but the wines can still get sick even if the area is clean. SO2 additions are tied to the pH of the wine, something you may want to look into if you want to stay at the bare minimum and still not lose any hard work


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## meadman77 (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks a lot for the info Deezil. That helps a lot. I'll try to read about pH and SO2. I have some litmus paper strips on the way in the post.


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## JackKeller (Feb 6, 2015)

@meadman77, abundant research has proven that the vast majority of people claiming sensitivity to sulfites are not, but instead are reacting to histamines in the wine. If you have asthma or COPD, you might be among the few who are really sensitive to sulfites. If you can drink most soft drinks, eat raisins and other dried fruit and drink most fruit juices from the supermarket, you are no sensitive to sulfites. All of them contain more than wine even at the upper thresholds.

Long ago my wife made me six muslin covers for my larger primaries. She used a 160-count muslin that uniformly drapes over the edge about two inches and each is hemmed with elastic cord. They are the best primary covers I own, allowing free exchange of atmosphere and CO2 while keeping out insects and dust and acting as a filter for most airborne microorganisms, plus easy access to the must for punching down the cap and/or stirring.

Seven days is normal when you pitch a dry yeast directly into a primary, as it take 2-3 days (the "lag phase") for a vigorous fermentation to begin. If you use a yeast starter solution husbanded for 16 or more hours and add that to the primary, vigorous fermentation will begin later that day or the next. Your primary time will be reduced and you won't be sweating out the lag phase wondering if your yeast are viable.

I invite you to visit my _website_ (first link under my signature) and read "The Basics" and "Advanced Basics" as a minimum. Under "Advanced Basics" are numerous links to other topics explored in depth.

In my _WineBlog_ (second link under my signature) are many discussions of every winemaking topic you can imagine (and many you never imagined). But you have to also delve into the blog's Archives (listed in the upper left column) for a well-rounded repertoire. 

My _Tidbitts_ stream (third link under my signature) is a subscription feed, published twice a week, add-free, and delivered to any connected device you own with the aid of a small app---for 99 cents a month. In it I publish content not available anywhere else. My feedback has been glowing.

It has taken me over 40 years to gain what I've learned. You can learn it in days by reading my material. I am not the only source on the internet and you should explore.

Please remember one thing about the amount of ingredients to use, the transfer and racking schedules and even bulk and bottle aging times---they are what I or another authority used. Since all fruit/berries/flowers/etc. used in winemaking are not equal, times and schedules can (and do) vary greatly.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 6, 2015)

Making wine without the addition of cat fur just doesn't tast the same!!! 

I generally put the lid on my primary without snapping it down. It keeps the bigger chunks out and still allows easy access.


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## jensmith (Feb 7, 2015)

DoctorCAD said:


> Making wine without the addition of cat fur just doesn't tast the same!!!
> .



I always wondered why my early spring wines had a better flavor then the same wine made after shedding season was over! 



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## cdevrard (Feb 10, 2015)

DoctorCAD said:


> Making wine without the addition of cat fur just doesn't tast the same!!!
> 
> I generally put the lid on my primary without snapping it down. It keeps the bigger chunks out and still allows easy access.



Sooooo much cat fur in my wine, no matter how careful I am


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## mmadmikes1 (Feb 11, 2015)

I prefer Labrador hair


DoctorCAD said:


> Making wine without the addition of cat fur just doesn't tast the same!!!
> 
> I generally put the lid on my primary without snapping it down. It keeps the bigger chunks out and still allows easy access.


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## Arne (Feb 11, 2015)

mmadmikes1 said:


> I prefer Labrador hair


 

Black lab give a darker wine and yellow lab a much lighter wine?? To each hisown, lol, Arne.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 11, 2015)

mmadmikes1 said:


> I prefer Labrador hair





Arne said:


> Black lab give a darker wine and yellow lab a much lighter wine?? To each hisown, lol, Arne.



Arne, let me guess: What kind of lab do you recommend for this: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f137/we-chocolate-raspberry-port-style-wine-46881/


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## Arne (Feb 12, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> Arne, let me guess: What kind of lab do you recommend for this: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f137/we-chocolate-raspberry-port-style-wine-46881/


 
Guess we have to go with the brown one there. Arne.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 12, 2015)

Arne said:


> Guess we have to go with the brown one there. Arne.



I have always heard them referred to as "chocolate labs," so that was the source of my query!


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