# Help me clean up this overgrown mess!



## Nmoushon (May 20, 2020)

Long story short, I bought my current house a year ago and it came with a couple concord grape vines growing up and over a pergola. It was June, so I didn't mess with it at all. Come fall I harvested what grapes I cared to take off and made some nice grape juice. I say, cared to take off, because there was not order to this at all. The house had been vacant for at least 2 years and just from the look of the mess of sticks and twigs it had not been properly pruned back in at least a decade! The vines themselves look to have been there much longer than that. 

So this past winter I tried cleaning up the giant birds next of decades of dead twigs & vines that had piled up atop and around the pergola. I also cut back a lot to at least made it look a bit cleaner. You can see the pictures below and how bad it still is...so you can image how bad it was. The vines are healthy and produce good grapes but its a hot ugly mess and its extremely difficult to harvest as I have to literally search for the grapes behind all the leaves and vines...and the ones on the very top just end up not getting picked because I cant reach them. I know its too late to do any pruning/trimming now and will have to wait till winter again. 

I'm not new to gardening but I am new to growing grapes. So I have basic knowledge and an ok green thumb. So I have a couple questions to you all. 

1 - Where do I even begin cleaning this up without completely cutting it back? 
2 - Whats the best way to figure out what vines are still viable so I can try and save those?
3 - Any other tips to help me clean this up and keep it healthy? I've never grown grapes before. 

Thanks for any help!


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## KevinL (May 22, 2020)

Lovely looking grapes! Crazy looking vines. I can't say I really know where to start. I'll just throw out some stuff...

I presume you want the pergola to provide some form of shade or shelter, otherwise you would have taken the whole thing down, meaning there is going to be a dual purpose here beyond just a high yield and good quality. Let me know if I'm wrong about that.

If you don't mind classic slide shows and a dull delivery, ol' Tom Zabadal has yet to let me down: 

So you'll need to take the advice and keep in mind how you want things fanned out so the Pergola still has shade. Although Concords can be really vigorous and will give you full shade no matter how you approach them. I'd also say that it is safe to go ahead and remove as much dead stuff as you can now. I don't see a reason for waiting until the winter to get that job done. Once your current shoots get too long that might not be an option (in a few weeks.)

Probably a bit too much growth going on right now to worry about selecting individual shoots to keep or clusters to thin for this year. That will be done best after the canes are in order for next year. Also when you do go to prune over the winter, Don't be afraid to be aggressive and prune a lot out. Those vines look really healthy, and even if you do go a bit far, they'll come back easily.


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## Nmoushon (May 22, 2020)

Thanks for the advice Kevin. 

I do plan on keeping the pergola for shade. North central Washington gets very hot in the summers. The pergola needs some major re-supporting that will occur this summer/fall. Not sure if you can tell but the middle and right front posts have rotted completely off at the bottom and the previous owner (instead of replacing them) decided to use, what looks like, old metal blade fronts from heavy construction equipment like a bulldozer. He has those shoved into the ground and the posts bolted to those. Very sturdy but very ugly as well haha. 

The current shoots are between 8-12"right now. So ya...not much time left to clean them out more this year. This winter when I go to prune back, how do I tell what is a good main stems/branches (sorry don't know terminology for grape vines yet) to keep and which are dead? Do I need to start tracing back which stems/branches the shoots are coming off of? I understand a heavy hand pruning is going to be needed and i dont need to be overly cautious but I do want to at least make sure I'm pruning the right ones properly and clearing out the dead stuff.


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## KevinL (May 24, 2020)

A way of determining if something is alive or not when it is dormant is to take your pruners, a knife, or your fingernails and scrape back a bit of bark on the 1 year canes. If there is green underneath then you've got a piece of live plant. So you do want all of the dead stuff gone, but I imagine there is going to be a good amount of live stuff you're going to want to prune back as well. I've never done a pergola, but I imagine you're going to want to pick out a few healthy cordons and then prune everything back to them. 

I gather you'd want to create spurs ever foot or so with 2-3 bud fruiting canes remaining off of them. Behold, MS PAINT top down view!




I think I got the number and position of your vines right. Something like this is what I'd Imagine. Assuming you want the "walls" to be covered too, then I'd leave some spurs down along the vertical section. The growth should fill in the gaps every season. Then I'd prune it back each year. For this upcoming season, if you don't get it perfect or accidentally prune something you thought you wanted to keep, that's fine. One way to make this easy (if you want to forgo a crop next year) would be to prune everything back to the trunks, and then train new vines across the pergola to become your cordons rather than trying to create existing ones. It'll be a fun puzzle I suppose.

Anyone else feel free to chime in if you think I'm off. I've never done a pergola, so I'm just thinking along the lines of what I'd do if I had this glorious mess.


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## Johnd (May 24, 2020)

KevinL said:


> A way of determining if something is alive or not when it is dormant is to take your pruners, a knife, or your fingernails and scrape back a bit of bark on the 1 year canes. If there is green underneath then you've got a piece of live plant. So you do want all of the dead stuff gone, but I imagine there is going to be a good amount of live stuff you're going to want to prune back as well. I've never done a pergola, but I imagine you're going to want to pick out a few healthy cordons and then prune everything back to them.
> 
> I gather you'd want to create spurs ever foot or so with 2-3 bud fruiting canes remaining off of them. Behold, MS PAINT top down view!
> 
> ...


That is an excellent depiction!! It was nice that you took the time to help out so effectively!


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2020)

@KevinL a good visualization of a pergola designed to produce fruit
. concord is vigorous, I would use a battery operated weed eater and trim them back to keep your pergola attractive, , , once a month? , , , I will prune concord and Frontenac (a vigorous hybrid) at least twice in summer.
. Time is the key, if you can remove dead sticks NOW, it will help. _You will not kill them, they are weeds, _and it will help manage growth this summer. Consider removing all shoots below 6 feet, it improves air flow (but decreases privacy,,, ie decorative). I will rub off shoots on the trunk as I see em, all summer long.
. In pruning I always ask where do i want the plant to be next year? Vines will grow 30 foot long which is really good for shade but not the best for fruit. Have you traced back to to see how many vines there are? On a decorative pergola there may only be two.


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## Nmoushon (May 26, 2020)

KevinL said:


> A way of determining if something is alive or not when it is dormant is to take your pruners, a knife, or your fingernails and scrape back a bit of bark on the 1 year canes. If there is green underneath then you've got a piece of live plant. So you do want all of the dead stuff gone, but I imagine there is going to be a good amount of live stuff you're going to want to prune back as well. I've never done a pergola, but I imagine you're going to want to pick out a few healthy cordons and then prune everything back to them.
> 
> I gather you'd want to create spurs ever foot or so with 2-3 bud fruiting canes remaining off of them. Behold, MS PAINT top down view!
> 
> ...



Kevin,

Thank you for the detailed reply! 

You did a good job guessing where the vines are. Its pretty damn close. The one thing I didnt mention, and you cant tell from the pictures, is that there is actually lattice across the top of the pergola as well. This has mostly rotted away on the top portion while the under portion is still there. Would you replace it, once the vines have been pruned back, or would you just leave it off?


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## Rice_Guy (May 26, 2020)

I would plan on replacing rotted structure. That said the church pergolas have treated horizontal 2x6 supports not lattice, healthy grape will easily cover an 18 inch wide space.


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## KevinL (May 27, 2020)

I'd say it's up to you. If it were me I'd probably remove the lattice and let the grapes fill in the space. Then it would be easier to harvest fruit and work on the vines. I also think rotting lattice is going to be a good place for mold and fungus to build up. Also it'll restrict airflow, making it more likely that your grapes are going to get some kind of disease.

Rice guy is right. At the beginning of the season, the shoots will grow outwards and upwards for a good 2 feet or so before they start to bend down, meaning they'll cover the gap without you really having to think about it.


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## Nmoushon (May 27, 2020)

KevinL & Rice_Guy. Thank you both for the help. 

Once winter comes I will be removing the lattice and not replacing it. I might even try to remove some of it now just so I can start cleaning. There was probably at least 2-3" of just dead stuff sitting on top when I first got it. There was no sunlight coming through even in winter. I got a lot down last winter but man...theres still a lot up there. 

The shoots have grown to 18-24" now and are too crazy for me to try and clean up the dead stuff behind them. So I will just have to wait till this winter to really clean them up good. I spent an hour or so this weekend cleaning up where I could reach and easily tell what was dead or not and got 4 wheelbarrows full of dead stuff off. That was only along the front too.

Thanks again for the help everyone. This winter will be a fun project for sure.


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## Nmoushon (Jun 8, 2020)

So I couldn't leave it alone. Found some time and cleaned up as much as I could. Mainly just the top area. I cut out most of the lattice above and cleaned out all the dead stuff I could reach. I did very very minimal pruning of anything with growth on it and most of that was me accidentally cutting the wrong one. I was not able to get to a good cleaning on the perimeter of the top as this had the most growth that had piled up. I will just have to wait on finishing that. I tried to clean up the walls as best I could from the inside since I couldn't from the outside. Cut off a bunch of really old (dead) cordons that were dry rotting away. Anything that could break with just a squeeze of my hand was pulled off too. 

There will need to be A LOT of training to do this winter and next year. But overall I think it was a good start. I actually can get up on a ladder and fit myself in between the trellis now. So that will make harvesting the top actually possible this year (it wasnt last year). 

When can I start the major pruning? I know winter-ish but is it better early winter or late winter?


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 8, 2020)

You have started the major pruning!
Since you have cleaned dead out, and we are early in the season it is “training” season, ,,, in essence let it grow where you will want it in the future and remove unwanted several times over summer.


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## KevinL (Jun 10, 2020)

Rice Guy is right. There is really no harm that you can do in removing whatever you want to at this point. Feel free to remove or reposition anything that you can access that isn't in the position that you want it in. It's looking great!


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## cideriswine (Jun 11, 2020)

After my father passed away, his concord grape vines went to hell for a few years and I had to deal with a tangled mess similar to yours.
There's no one way to tackle an vine renovation problem, there are too many variables for that.
You've done a good job getting rid of the dead wood, and except for some light summer pruning, I'd leave it alone until the plant goes into dormancy. You don't want to do major pruning in the summer. So next winter, get serious and start cutting it back. You don't have to renovate the whole thing in one season. If you are not experienced, cut back about 1/3 of the growth and then observe how it grows next year. If you pay attention to what's going on, you can figure out the best way to deal with your particular situation.
Here's a summer pruning video, there are many more on renovating concord grapes.








How to Prune Grapes in the Summer


In this video, Tricia shares her tips on pruning grapes.




www.groworganic.com


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## Nmoushon (Aug 20, 2020)

A little update. 

This summer has just been crazy. With covid making everything a royal pain and screwing with my schedules. So I had no time to do anymore pruning or cleaning up. 

I did however choose 4 nice sturdy cordons and attempted the air layering technique so that I can plant some new trunks elsewhere next year. They have all sprouted nice roots and look to be very healthy. Will see how well they hold out during the winter. I plan on cutting them off after harvest and potting them and bring them inside for the winter. My basement stays between 55-65 degrees year round.

One thing I did notice about the grapes this year, that I didnt notice last year, was that some of the clusters look as if they got small burn marks on them. Brown or black strips that resemble what I would think it would look like if someone took a magnifying glass and scorched a strip on almost every grape in the cluster. I've spotted about a dozen or two of these clusters. They are all smaller clusters and are not full clusters. Anyone know what is happening or causing this? Something I need to worry about like a disease or something?


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## Nmoushon (Nov 4, 2020)

Fall update, though a little late:

So I had a pretty decent harvest this year...well two harvests really. The first harvest was done in mid September. I got rushed into harvesting because birds started eating massive amount of the grapes. Much more and much earlier than they did last year. So one evening I quickly picked about 1/3 of the area of grapes, leading to just under 100 lbs of concords. After picking and starting the juicing process, that evening, I realized that they were not nearly as sweet as they were last year. Then I looked at the dates of when I picked last year....and it was an entire month later! I picked mid Oct in 2019 and mid Sept in 2020. So instead of picking the rest I had to rush around and find bird netting to cover the rest of the trellis (both the outside and inside of the trellis). I live in a HEAVY Ag area so it was very difficult finding bird netting near the end of harvest season. Luckily I found enough to cover the outside. I had to pull out tarps to cover the inside/underside of the trellis. Oh and this was all during a massive forest fire season, so it was very smoky (the pic below is at 2pm on a "clear" day looking at the sun).














So I decided to wait another 2 weeks and then try again to harvest the rest. In that time we have a good week of rain, which really helped peak that sweetness and the timing turned out really well. The second harvest was not as sweet as the 2019 harvest but I think that was a good thing. A sweet but mellow flavor with just a hint of the bitterness from the grape skins. Much more suitable for the kids pallets. Don't get me wrong, the first batch is still very good, just noticeably less sweet....probably will be good for jelly. The second harvest, even though 2/3 of the area, was only about 80-90 lbs of grapes. Showing how bad the birds got this year. I'm prepared for next year though. In total, so about 180 lbs of grapes, got me 53 quarts of canned concord grape juice. Very happy for this years harvest....minus the bird of course.

So with the harvest explained I have a couple question for you guys and gals.

1. So I still need to do a heavy pruning to clean things up. I know winter is the best time to do this, so how do I tell when the vines have safely entered dormancy and can safely do a heavy pruning without killing them?

2. I need to remove and replace all 6 posts of the trellis (they have basically rotted away). The front 3 are well enough away to do no damage or minimal damage to the roots. The back 3, however, are very much right on top of the roots. Is there a better time to do this than right now? I would like to use 6" conc sonotube to form a good foundation for the new posts. There will be damage to the roots, but not sure how digging the old posts out and putting the new foundations in, will effect the roots and the main vine?


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 5, 2020)

1) grapes are weeds, you will not kill them. As a northern grower I could do it now since the leaves are off however given all the projects it will not get to the top of the pile. Most folks prune before the new growth and after we see if there was winter kill. 
2) the roots are involved in support of the vine/ energy balance in winter. Damaging the root will reduce the viable canopy. If you were saying a six inch post hole digger I would say no problem, however sanotube 12“ ? 16” ? That could cut through a lot of the energy collection structure, and if the time works delay to spring. ,,,, If you seriously damage roots you reduce 2021 crop potential, the plant should live though.
* ? have you ever rooted grapes? In spring about 2 to 3 weeks before bud swell grape sticks shoved on potting mix will send out roots. ,,,, think spring if damage is easy to recover from.


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## Nmoushon (Nov 5, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> 1) grapes are weeds, you will not kill them. As a northern grower I could do it now since the leaves are off however given all the projects it will not get to the top of the pile. Most folks prune before the new growth and after we see if there was winter kill.
> 2) the roots are involved in support of the vine/ energy balance in winter. Damaging the root will reduce the viable canopy. If you were saying a six inch post hole digger I would say no problem, however sonotube 12“ ? 16” ? That could cut through a lot of the energy collection structure, and if the time works delay to spring. ,,,, If you seriously damage roots you reduce 2021 crop potential, the plant should live though.
> * ? have you ever rooted grapes? In spring about 2 to 3 weeks before bud swell grape sticks shoved on potting mix will send out roots. ,,,, think spring if damage is easy to recover from.


 Thanks Rice_Guy.

I don't absolutely have to do any of the pruning now. I do have a free weekend coming up so I just wanted to make sure doing it in a week isnt too early. We have had about a week a below freezing nights so far but not consistently cold. Still gets in the 60s during the day and some nights are low 50s. 

I don't plan on doing a 12 or 16" sonotube. way too big for what I need. 6" was what I was thinking...maybe 8" at the most. I'm not sinking the posts into the concrete so they dont need to be huge. I'll be using simpson column bases that are wet set into the concrete. My reasoning(thinking) for doing it now was we still have a bit of warm weather so I could still pour concrete. I can wait till spring if thats better time for the grapes.

Rooted grapes? Sorry, I don't know what this term means. Is that taking the fall cuttings and getting new vines going?


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 5, 2020)

“rooting grapes” . . . there is active growth in the spring, ,,, ie when I have tried grape cutting 2 months before bud break they just sit and may mold, ,, if I do it when there is slight swelling they root right away and don’t have the molding issue


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## Nmoushon (Nov 5, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> “rooting grapes” . . . there is active growth in the spring, ,,, ie when I have tried grape cutting 2 months before bud break they just sit and may mold, ,, if I do it when there is slight swelling they root right away and don’t have the molding issue


Got ya. I currently have 3 of 4 air layering experiments that are waiting for a complete dormancy in order to cut off. As far as I can tell those 3 rooted well. One was too low to the ground and (unknowingly) was getting water from the lawn sprinklers...so that molded through and fell off. I was planning to collect some cuttings this fall but sounds like youre suggesting that its easier in the spring. So I'll have to try that.


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