# YAN testing



## RPh_guy (Jul 13, 2020)

YAN = Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen, which includes both ammonia and amino acids (FAN)

Along with pH, TA, and s.g./Brix, YAN is one of the most important aspects of a wine, and one that we can measure.

Does anyone measure it? If yes, can you describe your process?


----------



## cmason1957 (Jul 13, 2020)

I don't measure YAN, but if I did, as a home winemaker, I'd probably buy the Vinmetrica unit and chemicals and test it with that. Seems a pretty straight forward test.


----------



## stickman (Jul 13, 2020)

I agree with @cmason1957, most home winemakers don't do the YAN analysis, but the Vinmetrica is a reasonable way to go if you decide to move ahead. The "old school" wet method can also be done, but involves handling 37% formaldehyde which is fairly nasty stuff.


----------



## RPh_guy (Jul 14, 2020)

stickman said:


> I agree with @cmason1957, most home winemakers don't do the YAN analysis, but the Vinmetrica is a reasonable way to go if you decide to move ahead. The "old school" wet method can also be done, but involves handling 37% formaldehyde which is fairly nasty stuff.


....
The Vinmetrica test uses 37% Formaldehyde.

From my understanding, the only function of the Vinmetrica device in this test (called a "formol titration") is to serve as a pH meter. Any pH meter will work fine for the test.


----------



## stickman (Jul 14, 2020)

The point is that you can do much more than YAN with the Vinmetrica, all of the reagents needed are available in proper concentrations etc.


----------



## RPh_guy (Jul 14, 2020)

stickman said:


> The point is that you can do much more than YAN with the Vinmetrica, all of the reagents needed are available in proper concentrations etc.


Do you use it for YAN testing?


----------



## stickman (Jul 14, 2020)

No, so far Brehm has been providing YAN values determined from a certified lab.


----------



## Ajmassa (Jul 14, 2020)

I have been thinking about getting it. But at the same time I never had any issue using standard dosages of nutrients without YAN levels known.

(Nutrient protocol pretty basic. FermK 1g/gal full dose at beginning and another at 1/3 of the way through. Will also add in some DAP or substitute with FermaidO when a situation calls for it.)

Not exactly necessary to test for it. Clearly since most are successfully making wine without it. But would minimize risk.
Vinmetrica does make it very convenient. If you already own & use Vinmetrica for so2 and ph/TA - then adding on YAN testing reagents is only $35.


----------



## RPh_guy (Jul 14, 2020)

The sticky in this subforum says it's impossible to test YAN at home. 

I'm surprised no one here thinks knowing nitrogen levels is helpful. Are you guys also not testing pH, TA, or density? None of those tests are necessary either.

If you already own & use *any pH meter* - then adding on YAN testing reagents is only *about* *$25*.


----------



## stickman (Jul 14, 2020)

I don't think anyone said the YAN numbers aren't helpful, just that most people at home don't do the testing. I've used YAN data for 19 years, most of the time an average dose of nutrients is acceptable, but there are some musts that are at the extremes and having the YAN value is very helpful. As an example, in 2016 I had a Pinot Noir with a YAN of 369, in 2018 I had a Cab with a YAN of 22, obviously these musts required vastly different nutrient additions.


----------



## RPh_guy (Jul 14, 2020)

So, what's holding people back from testing? The titration is relatively simple, not much different than measuring TA. I suspect you could even use the phenolphthalein indicator instead of a pH meter.

I think research is pretty clear that excessive or inadequate nutrient levels both have adverse effects on the fermentation and resulting wine quality, and as you pointed out the natural levels have extreme variance.


----------



## cmason1957 (Jul 14, 2020)

I don't do it, because I don't like have unnecessary chemicals around the house. I do test PH, but generally not TA, if it tastes good TA must be fairly good is my mode of operation. I don't run MLF chromotography either, I use the test strips. I don't think my wine making would improve greatly by knowing the absolute numbers from those tests, so why do them. If the family and I are happy with the results, why bother?


----------



## Ajmassa (Jul 14, 2020)

RPh_guy said:


> The sticky in this subforum says it's impossible to test YAN at home.
> 
> I'm surprised no one here thinks knowing nitrogen levels is helpful. Are you guys also not testing pH, TA, or density? None of those tests are necessary either.
> 
> If you already own & use *any pH meter* - then adding on YAN testing reagents is only *about* *$25*.


If you read the reply directly above your response quoted here you’ll see direct contradiction of your deductions. Nobody is denying that it’s helpful. That’s why I’ve been looking into it 

Gotta keep in mind how niche this actually is though. You seem unable to understand it from a hobbyists perspective— which ranges wildly. Majority of home winemakers aren’t immersed enough to regularly frequent an online forum let alone perform their own lab work. Hell, my family made wine forever and tested nothing. Literally NOTHING. Many others strictly make wine from kits. Only a very small % are performing routine tests for gravity, ph, TA, So2, malo etc.
YAN is much less popular because it’s less crucial to the process. (That’s not to say it’s not helpful). Plus the reagents needed are not typically marketed. Vast majority of winemaking supply sites don’t even sell it so you would need some sort of chemistry background or actively seek out information to even be aware. All the while successfully making wine without it. And any sites that do sell it are simply re-selling Vinmetrica’s reagents kit- giving the impression only Vinmetrica owners could utilize. Outta sight outta mind kinda thing.

it’s like owning an inert gas system. Does it help eliminate risk? Sure. Do you need it? No. Not at all. Remember, it’s a hobby for most. Not a profession. Some are more immersed than others.

you seem very knowledgeable regarding winemaking chemistry and intent on sharing it. But should not be surprising to know the popularity of testing YAN is low.

**the sticky I see is from 2013. Definitely can be updated to show current home testing available now 7 years later.


----------



## RPh_guy (Jul 14, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> You seem unable to understand it from a hobbyists perspective


I'm unable to understand that hobbists are happy with bare minimum effort to achieve subjectively adequate results? Wow, I must not be very bright.

FYI Formol titration was invented in 1907. It's not new technology, and not particularly difficult or expensive when compared to the rest of the process. However, I'm not here to convince anyone testing YAN is necessary. It should go without saying that it's up to you to make your decision.

Back on topic, I am looking for any useful insight from any winemakers experienced in YAN testing. I fully realize not everyone is doing it and precious few have any interest in learning techniques to improve their winemaking skills.

Thanks in advance guys!


----------



## Ajmassa (Jul 14, 2020)

RPh_guy said:


> I'm unable to understand that hobbists are happy with bare minimum effort to achieve subjectively adequate results? Wow, I must not be very bright.
> 
> FYI Formol titration was invented in 1907. It's not new technology, and not particularly difficult or expensive when compared to the rest of the process. However, I'm not here to convince anyone testing YAN is necessary. It should go without saying that it's up to you to make your decision.
> 
> ...


 Lol ok. Not sure why you felt the need to be condescending. I explained my thoughts thoroughly and objectively. Explaining to you why some people may think differently than the way you think. But you imply these people are ‘less than’, and disregard the million other variables factoring in.

I would never refer to the decision to not seek out YAN testing as “the bare minimum”. at all. You can feel strongly about YAN testing but no need to degrade all winemakers who choose not to test for it. That’s just plain rude. Rude af.

YAN testing helps when must is at an extreme unhealthy YAN level. If in range then standard nutrient dosages will give a healthy fermentation and YAN level is a non factor
In these cases knowing the YAN would NOT make the wine any better. Just as lacking the YAN level does not make wine any worse.

Not advocating for it or against it mind you. Just explaining why you may find it difficult to get feedback on different testing techniques since it is not commonly tested by home winemakers.


----------



## RPh_guy (Jul 14, 2020)

Thank you. I hope we can now conclude the philosophy discussion.


----------



## Ajmassa (Jul 14, 2020)

RPh_guy said:


> Thank you. I hope we can now conclude the philosophy discussion.


Yeah GFY


----------



## CDrew (Jul 14, 2020)

Wow, this went nuclear quick.

@RPh_guy you may know your stuff, but you do come across as a bit pedantic. This is just feedback not an attack. Just curious have you personally done any of this testing? Or is this a theoretical discussion? I'm ok with either. I do have a background (shockingly distant now) in analytical chemistry, so I hear where you're coming from.

Me personally, I do think that in the end, I will be doing YAN testing, but, in 4 years I've gotten away without. I am a huge believer in adequate yeast nutrition. So, I do think it's important. It's just that standard supplementation works so well and basically every time, that YAN testing goes into the background. My guess, is, that kit's are already fed with YAN, so no YAN testing needed for any kit wine making. For grape wine making, though, it's in play. Especially with central valley grapes (what the East Coast guys get) grown for yield.

Let's start over on this topic, because it is a good one. @Ajmassa is a good dude and you should lighten up a bit. Just sayin'.

And BTW there is a lot of info in the "stickies" that is wrong/outdated/silly in retrospect.

So don't go away, just mellow out a bit. Chemistry is good and mostly makes life better. If you have special knowledge here, welcome to Wine Making Talk!


----------



## KCCam (Jul 14, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Wow, this went nuclear quick.
> 
> @RPh_guy you may know your stuff, but you do come across as a bit pedantic. This is just feedback not an attack. Just curious have you personally done any of this testing? Or is this a theoretical discussion? I'm ok with either. I do have a background (shockingly distant now) in analytical chemistry, so I hear where you're coming from.
> 
> ...


Here, here! What @CDrew said!  All of it.


----------



## Rice_Guy (Apr 28, 2022)

_yes this is an old thread about the subject of testing_
The local Vinters club sells juice buckets. The science committee was given a suggestion about sampling and providing YAN numbers on the next shipment, May ‘22. (we have been providing SG/ pH/ TA/ SO2 )
* the Vinmetrica procedure is described as testing YAN on *wine*. Would Vinmetrica be competent for juice/ juice buckets?
* is YAN useful, is it basically useless info?
* how should we coach club members on using the added data?
* is there a better method than Vinmetrica? better lab (we are Wisconsin based)?

THANKS! (RiceGuy Food Consulting)


RPh_guy said:


> YAN = Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen, which includes both ammonia and amino acids (FAN)
> 
> Along with pH, TA, and s.g./Brix, YAN is one of the most important aspects of a wine, and one that we can measure.
> 
> Does anyone measure it? If yes, can you describe your process?


----------



## cmason1957 (Apr 28, 2022)

I would think YAN would be very useful. There are some magic numbers out there that you want to hit with your Nutrient additions. Normally, I just guess and add whatever the package says to add per gallon. Having the numbers would allow you to make sure you add enough, without adding to much. It is best if it is all used up by the fermentation, so none is left over for bacteria to munch on and grow after the fact.

This link: Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen (YAN) - The Australian Wine Research Institute



> *Recommended YAN levels in grapes/musts/juices*
> Minimum YAN requirement for low risk fermentation:
> 
> Whites – approx. 150 mg/L
> ...


----------



## tmcfadden932 (Apr 29, 2022)

cmason1957 said:


> I would think YAN would be very useful. There are some magic numbers out there that you want to hit with your Nutrient additions. Normally, I just guess and add whatever the package says to add per gallon. Having the numbers would allow you to make sure you add enough, without adding to much. It is best if it is all used up by the fermentation, so none is left over for bacteria to munch on and grow after the fact.
> 
> This link: Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen (YAN) - The Australian Wine Research Institute


The best way is to use your nose. If you can smell hydrogen sulfide, rotten egg smell, then you haven't added enough. Some of the master wine makers, in and around Lodi, Ca. that I have talked to, recommend 225 to 250ppm in reds and about 2/3rds of that in whites with lower alcohol content.


----------



## Rice_Guy (Apr 29, 2022)

Whites are the must which has the reputation for running short on nitrogen. Not reds. What would be the logic on using less on whites? ,,,, 


tmcfadden932 said:


> The best way is to use your nose. If you can smell hydrogen sulfide, rotten egg smell, then you haven't added enough. Some of the master wine makers, in and around Lodi, Ca. that I have talked to, recommend 225 to 250ppm in reds and about 2/3rds of that in whites with lower alcohol content.


I talked to Vinmetrica today. * Their kit is the proper tool for running YAN on juice. * The test can be run with any pH meter with two place accuracy. My assumption is that yeast need similar nutrition any time they ferment. ,,, It will be interesting to see the YAN difference between reds and whites and several grape varieties.


----------



## Tin_Man (May 1, 2022)

Hello all,

Attached below is one of my lab manuals that walks-you-through a YAN testing procedure using a Formol Titration. Hope it helps.
You'll need some basic glassware, a pH meter, NaOH, and 37% Formaldehyde (Formalin).


----------



## tmcfadden932 (May 2, 2022)

Those that are lucky enough to live near Lodi, Ca have the Wine Lab were a juice panel report is only $15 to wine club members. YAN is one of the components reported. Lodi Wine Labs - Analysis | Wine | Beer


----------

