# When to retire a Barrel



## Donz (Mar 4, 2020)

On average, how many years do you guys use a barrel?

I have a 55l French oak barrel that I bought back in 2016 and it's starting to lose its shine. It still oaks decently but not the same as it used to. Wondering how much longer I should use it...


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## Johnd (Mar 4, 2020)

Donz said:


> On average, how many years do you guys use a barrel?
> 
> I have a 55l French oak barrel that I bought back in 2016 and it's starting to lose its shine. It still oaks decently but not the same as it used to. Wondering how much longer I should use it...



if you keep it clean and full, you can use it for a lot longer. It’ll totally lose its ability to provide oak flavor, but you can use oak staves to shore that up. It’ll continue to provide micro-oxygenation and concentration for your wines.


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## Mac60 (Mar 5, 2020)

Donz said:


> On average, how many years do you guys use a barrel?
> 
> I have a 55l French oak barrel that I bought back in 2016 and it's starting to lose its shine. It still oaks decently but not the same as it used to. Wondering how much longer I should use it...


Kinda of crazy I have a 30 gallon French oak barrel I bought back in 2000, I have been using for 20 years, I have been adding WineStix for oak flavor the past 6 years, still works great. Would not even think about retiring it.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 5, 2020)

My barrels are smaller but I couldn't wait for them to become neutral so I could keep my wine in longer.


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## NorCal (Mar 5, 2020)

I think a barrel has an oak flavor half life of 1 year, so 100% oak year one, 50% year 2, 25% year 3.... I have a barrel that I love, seals tight, vacuum sound every time I remove the bung and it is on it's 6th season. I supplement the oak with spirals, but plan on keeping it for years to come.


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## ibglowin (Mar 5, 2020)

Clean and sanitized wins the race!


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## Donz (Mar 5, 2020)

Thanks for all your input guys. My barrel still has no problem oaking, it’s a smaller 55l. Maybe it just needs a good cleaning... I normally clean it with hot water and sulfite. Anything else I could do to clean it up?

my last batch of wine was in there for 4.5 months, maybe it’s just overoaked.


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## Johnd (Mar 5, 2020)

Donz said:


> Thanks for all your input guys. My barrel still has no problem oaking, it’s a smaller 55l. Maybe it just needs a good cleaning... I normally clean it with hot water and sulfite. Anything else I could do to clean it up?
> 
> my last batch of wine was in there for 4.5 months, maybe it’s just overoaked.



Give the inside a good looking over, or best you can, it’s hard to see in there. My 30 gallon, which just got refilled, had a pretty good (1/16”) layer of very hard lees / tartrate that was hard to remove, mostly on the bottom of the barrel. It took some boiling water sitting in there plus my pressure washer to clean it well. The wine was in there for two years, yours may not be as stubborn if you have any in there.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 24, 2020)

An acquaintance had barrels that were 20+ years old, so as long as the barrel is clean and tight, it's still good as an aging container.

I purchased a 10 yo barrel last fall specifically because I wanted a neutral barrel. It seals tight, gotta fight to get the bung out. Similar to @Johnd, I use oak cubes for the oak flavoring. I can leave wine in the barrel for a year without concern for over-oaking. Besides, I can mix-n-match oak type and toast level, along with amounts, to achieve whatever I want.

If things work out, I'll purchase another 10 (well, now 11) yo barrel this fall and intend to use French cubes in one and Hungarian in the other to see what the differences are.


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## Sage (Sep 2, 2020)

In this area, you can buy 2-3 yr old french oak barrels for $40 or less. I just don't make enough to use one. I did buy one and cut it up, planed the slats and retoasted for oaking.


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## Booty Juice (Dec 20, 2020)

Here are some of ours. When to retire them can be a question for your kids, not you - if you prefer.

Now, when to retire prosciutto (yes my kid misspelled in the picture) is a another story..


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## Jbu50 (Mar 4, 2021)

Micro-oxygenation? Concentration? I have a 10L and 30L that I have been using for about 5-7 years that I think have become neutral. What's the benefit of micro-oxygenation or concentration? Barrels are hard to work with. If you guys are keeping your old barrels around and putting oak spirals in them, isn't it easier to just use glass and put oak spirals in your carboys, etc? Easier to clean glass...


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## winemaker81 (Mar 4, 2021)

Jbu50 said:


> If you guys are keeping your old barrels around and putting oak spirals in them, isn't it easier to just use glass and put oak spirals in your carboys, etc?


Aging in a barrel produces a flavor and aroma you can't get any other way. IMO the character you get from fresh(ish) oak is only 25% of the benefit of a barrel.

In 2019 I aged 14 gallons of wine in a barrel for 10 months, including 3 months with 6 oz French oak cubes. Another 5 gallons were carboy aged, no oak. The two wines could not be more different. The carboy aged is fruity, to the point where most tasters believe there is residual sugar. The barrel aged has the fruit, but it's mixed with oak character and "something else", producing a surprising complexity.

Other wines, aged in carboys with oak cubes, don't come anywhere near close.

My 54 liter barrels evaporate about 10% per year, so I need to start with 60 liters to net 54. That cost is worth it -- quality over quantity.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 4, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Aging in a barrel produces a flavor and aroma you can't get any other way. IMO the character you get from fresh(ish) oak is only 25% of the benefit of a barrel.
> 
> In 2019 I aged 14 gallons of wine in a barrel for 10 months, including 3 months with 6 oz French oak cubes. Another 5 gallons were carboy aged, no oak. The two wines could not be more different. The carboy aged is fruity, to the point where most tasters believe there is residual sugar. The barrel aged has the fruit, but it's mixed with oak character and "something else", producing a surprising complexity.
> 
> ...



To Jbu50's point carboys are much easier but in my opinion the quality of the wine aged in a barrel is far superior. Oak has a tendency to reduce the fruitiness of a wine. Some wines can take a lot of it and some you want to keep the fruitiness. Norton is such a fruit bomb I like to oak the crap out of it. Others such as Zinfandel I want the fruitiness and a Pinot I like to have just a little oak. But either way the micro-oxygenation play a huge role in the quality of the wine.


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## ibglowin (Mar 4, 2021)

IMHO, its ALL about the Micro-Ox and the Angels Share.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 4, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> To Jbu50's point carboys are much easier but in my opinion the quality of the wine aged in a barrel is far superior.


Absotively! Not frigging with a barrel makes things SOOOO much easier. But the wine I aged in a barrel is so much better, that most of my reds will be barrel aged in the future.

It's not for everyone. The cost, effort required for barrel aging, and fruit type doesn't fit everyone's interests.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 4, 2021)

i once read on here about the humidity effects on the micro-ox. And that if the room is dry then what’s evaporating out of the wine is from the water portion—leaving the ethanol and increasing the abv. But if the room is humid the water remains and the ethanol evaporates out— decreasing the abv. 

But i rarely see this mentioned ever so i wonder if the difference is minuscule. OR — can barrel aging in a humid room actually be a bad thing?


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## jgmann67 (Mar 5, 2021)

Loving this thread. I’m coming up on week 4 in a brand new 8 gallon barrel for my Malbec and was just thinking about my barrel’s useful life. 5-10 years sounds great.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 5, 2021)

I try to keep my barrels at 65% RH but I think the correct range should be 70-75. Unless a barrel somehow become infected I plan on using them as long as they hold wine.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 5, 2021)

@Ajmassa : I've also read that there may be differences in evaporation due to humidity. I don't know exactly what they are, but I can tell you I lose a lot more to the angels in winter (when humidity in the house is around 40%), vs summer. Unfortunately, I don't have a temp/humidity controlled space - just means I top up a bit more when the heat is running.

To the question about benefits of barrels, I'm currently using 3 - two of which are 5 or more years old and very much neutral. The other is a 40L which has been in use for about a year. I recently took a Touriga out of that barrel after 6 months and the difference between the wine that was in that barrel and the same "extra" wine I had in a carboy is astounding. And it isn't just the oak. As others have mentioned, there's much more than that.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 5, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> @Ajmassa : I've also read that there may be differences in evaporation due to humidity. I don't know exactly what they are, but I can tell you I lose a lot more to the angels in winter (when humidity in the house is around 40%), vs summer. Unfortunately, I don't have a temp/humidity controlled space - just means I top up a bit more when the heat is running.



Ok so about 2 minutes of googling and i pretty much got all the info i’d need for this topic. interestingly enough the top result on google is a quote from this site by @ibglowin from 2013. 

70% Relative humidity - the ethanol and water evaporate at the same rate. ideal humidity 
RH < 70% - more water evaporates, abv increases but the angels share amount becomes more than you’d like . 
RH >70% - more ethanol evaporates so abv decreases, but angels share amount is more workable. too high and risk compromising the oak from mold. 






Barrel temp & humidity


I've read that it's important to maintain temperature and humidity when aging wine in barrels. Optimum seems to be 55 degrees F and between 65-75% humidity. So I bought a small greenhouse and built it in my basement. It's just a plastic tent over metal frame. I put a small humidifier in it...




www.winemakingtalk.com


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## sour_grapes (Mar 5, 2021)

It may be worth noting that @ibglowin was not the original author of that quote (which is not clear from the 2013 quote). Take a looky here:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XEaQs-vrTB8Jttps://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=getArticle&dataId=36252+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari




Ajmassa said:


> Ok so about 2 minutes of googling and i pretty much got all the info i’d need for this topic. interestingly enough the top result on google is a quote from this site by @ibglowin from 2013.
> 
> 70% Relative humidity - the ethanol and water evaporate at the same rate. ideal humidity
> RH < 70% - more water evaporates, abv increases but the angels share amount becomes more than you’d like .
> ...



It may be worth noting that [USER...36252+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari


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## Ajmassa (Mar 5, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> It may be worth noting that @ibglowin was not the original author of that quote (which is not clear from the 2013 quote). Take a looky here:
> 
> https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XEaQs-vrTB8Jttps://www.winebusiness.com/wbm/?go=getArticle&dataId=36252+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
> 
> ...



yeah i assumed this and did actually make mention of it likely being a quote of a quote but i deleted it. i’ll proofread before posting and remove a lot. Sometimes i get too wordy. So my mention of the quote i quoted actually being a quote of a quote — yea that ended up on the cutting room floor lol. (ok that wordiness was intentional. but this one is not. back to work now. good day sir )

and good job on pulling the original source. 
Curtis Phillips will be pleased.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 5, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> Loving this thread. I’m coming up on week 4 in a brand new 8 gallon barrel for my Malbec and was just thinking about my barrel’s useful life. 5-10 years sounds great.


Mine are currently 11 years old, and I knew guys with barrels well over 20. Take good care of them, and they last.

The money spent on a barrel is a larger up-front investment -- I've seen new 15 gallon American oak for $325. Divide that by 10 and it's a much more reasonable $32.50 per year.

I recently spent $25 USD on 1 lb Hungarian oak cubes -- 5 oz will go into each barrel and 2 oz is already in a carboy, leaving me 4 oz for another use. Perking a neutral barrel with oak adjuncts is relatively inexpensive. It also makes a neutral barrel more versatile, as I can add any oak adjunct I want AND can mix-n-match to produce custom flavor profiles.


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