# What do you think of government regulations?



## geocorn (May 9, 2007)

Saw this on FoxNews today and was curious as to what you thought about it.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270860,00.html


----------



## grapeman (May 9, 2007)

And people wonder why gas keeps going up in price..... I also notice the more News reports tell of increasing gas prices, the faster they go up. It' like giving them all the green light to raise prices and get richer(oil companies). Sometimes I think the Amish are onto something using horses. The only gas they need to worry about is what comes out the rear of the one horsepower engine in front of them.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA (May 9, 2007)

Makes you wonder what other world leaders think when ours preach a "free market economy" to them, when we haven't been one in years. Average tax on a gallon is 45.9 cents...


http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1054.html
do you seecomparable benefits from those tax dollars? Perhaps another commitee to study price relief,and another, and another....


----------



## Randy1 (May 9, 2007)

Since when is it illegal to conduct business the American way??? You buy a product, and sell it at a price you think you can make profit on. What about restaurants that give seniors a discount? Are they next?





Sounds like to me the government is into price-fixing.


----------



## OilnH2O (May 9, 2007)

The real issue here to me is how a state (this is Wisconsin according to the story) can justify this -- and how many other states could there be like Wisconsin with similar practices? I'm sure there is some "special interest" here! This is also why an occasional call to your state legislator is a good idea -- but many people don't even know who that is! 
Someone wiser than me said "we get the government we deserve." (George, I'm trying to not violate the "no politics" rule!)


----------



## geocorn (May 9, 2007)

I knew politics would come into this topic, so I broke my own rule.






My favorite is byThomasPainewho said "...government even in its best
state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one;"


More great quotes at:


http://www.catb.org/~esr/fortunes/liberty


*Edited by: geocorn *


----------



## Wade E (May 9, 2007)

Wait till they come down on George for giving us a multikit discount, then it will be Ruby Ridge all over again!




This is a reason why I have a gun collection and theyll have to pry my
cold dead hands off them to get them. They moght lose a few in the
procees!


----------



## jobe05 (May 9, 2007)

George, your a good businessman and all good businessmen (and woman) know that sometimes you have to break the rules, even when they are your own.


I won't comment on the Government side of the issue, I think we are all frustrated with that enough, and our ability to change it will be coming......... perhaps............


When I was a teenager I use to scoff at those wo were considered the militia, you knwo the ones, they moved to a mountain side in Montana, lived off the land, didn't answer to the government and jurisdictional limitations, not so much that they didn't want to, they didn't have to, they lived far enough away,and they owned guns. As much as I never agreed with them back then, when I hear crap like this, it makes me think that perhaps their ideals and way of life may not be that bad.


Nuff said by me........


----------



## PeterZ (May 9, 2007)

Sounds like restraint of trade to me, but IANAL. It really depends on howw the law is worded. It should have been written that retailers cannot charge more than 9.2% over wholesale.

Here in TN, convenience stores are either owned by the refiner and leased to the operator, whose only restriction is that he buy his gas from that refiner, or wholly owned by the individual, who picks his choice of refiner. They can charge what the market will bear - depending on where you go in Memphis gas will cost from $.07 - $.25 over the wholesale cost.

The real money in convenience stores is not in the gas. In-store packaged merchandise - soda, beer, munchies - typically sells at a 30% profit margin. Prepared-in-house food - coffee, chicken fingers, other hot items - sells at 70% margin. That's where the money is made.

This individual was using the discount on gas to bring people in - good marketing. He should not be penalized for that. As a small operator, however, he probably can't afford a legal fight with the state. I think he would win at the Federal Appeals Court level, but it would be expensive. If I win the Powerball tonight, I'll pay his legal fees.

As long as there is not price fixing in town, and a majority of the convenience stores are not in the hands of a few people, they should be allowed to price as they see fit. Since the conditions listed in the last sentence are already a violation of Federal Law (since Standard Oil was broken up) I see no need for a state law.


----------



## kutya (May 10, 2007)

Quote from JOBE
When I was a teenager I use to scoff at those wo were considered the militia, *you knwo the ones, they moved to a mountain side in Montana*, *lived off the land,* didn't answer to the government and jurisdictional limitations, not so much that they didn't want to, they didn't have to, they lived far enough away,and they owned guns. As much as I never agreed with them back then, when I hear crap like this, it makes me think that perhaps their ideals and way of life may not be that bad.


Nuff said by me........[/QUOTE] 


I think you are talking about some of my relatives here........ I have to admit here, that as a youngster, I lived in the same community as the Unibomber... We called him uncle Ted.........*Edited by: kutya *


----------



## Coaster (May 10, 2007)

"It should have been written that retailers cannot charge more than 9.2% over wholesale."







I'm not sure that would help. The whole reason for this is because some very large company would go into one small town, lower the price below wholesale (because they were making it up on the gas stations not located in that town) and drive all the locals out of business. Then they can raise prices either very high or just back to "normal" price but control all the market. Anytime someone opens a new gas station, they simply lower the price until they drive them out again. Do that to enough small towns you can eventually do it to larger and larger towns. 


I think that is why the law says "which requires stations to sell gas for about 9.2 percent more than the wholesale price." They still play games with which whole sale price to use (the one today or the one when they bought the gas - ie which ever is higher).


----------



## MikeC (May 10, 2007)

Coaster said:


> "It should have been written that retailers cannot charge more than 9.2% over wholesale."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I suspect you've nailedthe real reason for the law in the first place. It sounds like a law thatstarted withgood intentions but when applied in this circumstance it had an undesirable outcome.


There is also the case of a gentleman in Decatur Illinois who has been converting vegetable oil for use in his VW diesel. He made the mistake of showing off the system-after all it's really cheap fuel. The Illinois Department of Revenue is now threatening him with felony prosecution because he avoided the fuel use tax. Again, what seemed to be a good idea had some unforseen consequences because of the way laws are written.


As to the topic subject-I think there are far too many regulations, many of them overlapping and duplicated. 


http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2007/03/01/news/local_news/1021491.txt*Edited by: MikeC *


----------



## Mike777 (May 10, 2007)

I think the press has gone to great lengths to avoid scaring the public, so has uncle sam. Here is the truth, for what its worth......

1. In this year 2007 we have pumped over half of all the oil out of the ground that exists. This is an all time marker year and no one has said a word.

2. We have pumped the largest majority of it since 1960. 

3. All of the oil can't be pumped out of the ground. Sea water is used in its place when its removed. Sea water cant support the weight of the land above it. Think of this. Drain the oil out of a hydraulic jack and add sea water, then try to jack up your car. 15% or so has to stay down there.

4. There are more cars and drivers on the road every year. Between 3-9% depending on who is estimating and what their covert reasons are.

Now we get to the nuts and bolts. 
50% (Half thats used up already.)
15% (to stabilise the land mass) adds up to:

65% that is long gone.

This means that 35% is left with a steady increase of users eating larger chunks every year. Each year going forward will eat a larger percentage.
Now of that 35% left over we control about 20% of that in AK and central US feilds. The Muslim world controls the rest.

When we get down to 20% left, evryone will know why we are at war in Iraq. We need those air strips and permanent bases. 

I say we turn off the flow of grain and see how they like paying $50 a bushel for corn. Instead we use the corn for gas and start negotiateing all new price structures for the remaining fossil fuel supply. There is really no big secret here. Whoever has the remaining reserves when everyone else runs out will conquer the ones with no fuel supplies.

Keep in mind my figures are all based on previous lies that were published so they may be off quite a bit today. Don't trust what they say. Figures lie and liars figure.

Keep your eyes on grainstock ethanol, where they use the stems without the grain. A solution in a byproduct. You got a big bag of yeast right?

*Edited by: Mike777 *


----------



## PeterZ (May 10, 2007)

Mike,

I'm not sure where your figures come from, but I remember hearing much the same story back in 1977, when the CBS Evening News (Walter Chronkite) was saying that 70% of the word's oil had already been pumped, and we would run out by 1990.

As far as #3 on your list, that is just wrong. Seawater weighs more than oil does (denser) and does not compress any more than any other liquid. All true liquids have the same compressability - almost none.

The reason they use seawater (actually an artificial brine) is because it is heavier than oil, making the oil float on top so it can be extracted. The reason you don't put seawater in your hydraulic jack is that it is corrosive as hell, and the corrosion will prevent a good seal, letting the jack leak down.

Now let's look at the untapped suspected reserves (nobody knows how big they are, because they are not being drilled, but the geologists have made estimates). ANWR - about as much as Saudi Arabia. Siberia - about 10x Saudi Arabia. Why aren't these reserves being tapped? In ANWR it's politics. In Siberia it's economics and infrastructure. Let the price get high enough and they will be tapped.

E85 technology is long established, most notably in Brazil. Brazil has a large economy, only a little oil, and the lack of foreign currency to buy oil on the world market (nobody wants Brazilian cruizeros, and they don't have Dollars, Yen or Euros). What they do have is lots of sugar cane. So they convert it to alcohol to fuel about 70% of the cars in the country.

I could go on for hours, but this is not the place for it. This is a really nice place, and I would not like even the Friendly Chit Chat to devolve into acrimonius debate.

I will say no more.

Peter


----------



## JWMINNESOTA (May 11, 2007)

Its time for a new political party, how about Fine Vine Americans!



Our motto could be "If you don't home brew, we don't vote for you!"


----------



## redwineleo (May 11, 2007)

Maybe if more people would drink wine there'd be more designated drivers, creating more car pools, lessening our dependence on oil. Wait...then we'd all be under the influence coming to work. Wait...that just might work!


----------



## scotty (May 11, 2007)

First of all im a retired groce.deli owner. Im not in the gas station business. 
The law originally must have been made because of some sort of lobby. Ill guess that the lobby was from a group representing the service station owners who traditionally have made peanuts on gasoline any way. 
The oil companies seldom give a hoot if the small businesman is or is not making profit as long as they have an outlet for thier gasoline.
The retailer in question knew the law when he went into the business.
My guess from the persons name is that he may be one of those folks operating on a tax free deal with the government.
If thats the case, he already has an unfair advantage over othes in any business that lives under the standard tax laws.
He probably was pleased to use this tax break to get more traffic in his store and to get his volume up ((gasoline and in store sales as well).


If myspeculation is correct than we can asume that other business folks reported the violation in order to get the ballance back


I really dont think this sounds like a violation of restraint of trade.


I dont approve of any fair traded items at any rate.



*Edited by: scotty *


----------



## OilnH2O (May 11, 2007)

Boy, if we could all do as PeterZ says and keep this "light" what a great conversation we could all have!


But, I always try to remember (as MikeC implied above about this law...) that the "road to H-E-double-hockey-sticks" has a number of paving stones, all of which had good intentions when they were put there!






(Some probably with my name on them!)


----------



## MikeC (May 11, 2007)

OilnH2O said:


> Boy, if we could all do as PeterZ says and keep this "light" what a great conversation we could all have!




Yeah, religion and politics can be hot-button issues. I've seen a lot of threads on other forums turn nasty when someones views are challenged. Heck, you should see some of the heated debates on something as simple as "import" car brand 1 vs. "domestic" car brand 2.


That's one of the things that I like about this board-the civil attitudemembers show one another even when discussing something of a political nature. It has a level of maturity that most boards don't. 


Or maybe George is adding something to the winekits that make us just not care.....







*Edited by: MikeC *


----------



## geocorn (May 11, 2007)

I don't have to add anything to the wine kits. My customers and forum members are the best people for which I could ask.


I knew this could be a hot button, but I had the utmost confidence that the topic would be handled with dignity for all. So far, I have not been disappointed. You are the BEST!


----------



## PeterZ (May 11, 2007)

Oil, you are right on. The road to that toasty place where you can't age wine is paved with good intentions.

Mike, do you frequent edmunds.com?

George, we all behave because we love you and all you do for us. This is a place where we are all welcome, and where we check our hot buttons at the door. Like I said when accepting the honor of becoming a moderator, it's been a long time since I was a part of a community that I enjoyed and appreciated so much.


----------



## PolishWineP (May 11, 2007)

As a moderator, I admit I get nervous when I see topics like this. The potential is there. That said, I know that people here behave in amanner that allows people to agree to disagree with dignity. Many of us have seen what _can_ happen by reading other forums. I see this forum as a place where people mind their manners and respect one another. I'm thankful for the opportunity I've been given to be a moderator here and all the great people who participate. My job is so easy because people here know how to treat each.





I feel that the government should crank down on automakers to make vehicles that run on what the average American can brew up in their own garage!!!!*Edited by: PolishWineP *


----------



## Wade E (May 12, 2007)

Wine fuel? No way is my wine going in my truck. Ill wsalk to work first!


----------



## scotty (May 12, 2007)

Its easy to be reasonable with reasonable folks. 


ALWAYS AGREE WITH SCOTTY






*Edited by: scotty *


----------



## PolishWineP (May 12, 2007)

It's not like I'd suggest we use the good stuff, Wade.


----------



## MikeC (May 13, 2007)

PeterZ said:


> Oil, you are right on. The road to that toasty place where you can't age wine is paved with good intentions.
> 
> Mike, do you frequent edmunds.com?
> 
> George, we all behave because we love you and all you do for us. This is a place where we are all welcome, and where we check our hot buttons at the door. Like I said when accepting the honor of becoming a moderator, it's been a long time since I was a part of a community that I enjoyed and appreciated so much.




I don't go to Edmunds, but I frequent several other automotive related forums. There's one called Autoblog-the responses to articles are downright nasty. Bob Is The Oil Guy has some very heated arguments over some pretty petty things.


I agree-George sets the standard here for us to follow. He and the moderators handle the board like George handles his customers-with a lot of class and respect.


----------



## jsmahoney (May 14, 2007)

I would also like to add, weather it politics, religion, or anywhere in between, this forum has class! Even theclose nit families can get into a brawl and end up being disrespectfully to one another. 






It goes to say, wine people are the best! 


As far as government regulations......has anyone ever picked up a book full of regulations and tried to read them? I think Peterz said it...........they are written and can be interpreted in different ways........even though the intentions would bare common sense......the writings are not meant to be point blank, for to many areas of difference in turn creates an open book of regulations.....therefore no one can be accountable.


----------



## PeterZ (May 14, 2007)

When I was a moderator on CompuServe (yes, I'm _that_ old) we had the ability to delete entire threads, as well as individual messages, that got too acrimonous. I don't know what software this board is using, but when I ran a site on PHP Nuke I could do that as well.

I've never seen a thread here that needed deleting, but some Visigoths might arrive someday just to stir up some $#!^. Do George or Masta have the power to make a thread cease to exist in the current universe?


----------



## geocorn (May 14, 2007)

Peter,
Now what would go and give you that idea?


----------



## JWMINNESOTA (May 14, 2007)

Ive seen good forums go bad, I think the members here wouldn't tolerate it, the Visigoths would be wasting there time., knowing at the bottom of each post there is a "!report" tab, gives some assurance we are in good handsI think.


----------



## masta (May 15, 2007)

PeterZ said:


> When I was a moderator on CompuServe (yes, I'm _that_ old) we had the ability to delete entire threads, as well as individual messages, that got too acrimonous. I don't know what software this board is using, but when I ran a site on PHP Nuke I could do that as well.
> 
> I've never seen a thread here that needed deleting, but some Visigoths might arrive someday just to stir up some $#!^. Do George or Masta have the power to make a thread cease to exist in the current universe?






Of course we have the power to make any thread, topic, and members disappear without a trace but rarely use these powers.






At times I am a bit surprised but very pleased we have had very few issues and the forum will be three years old this July! This is due to the standard George set in the beginning and all of the great members who have followed his lead.


Thanks to all!!


----------



## scotty (May 15, 2007)

I left a motorcycle website because the political and religious bickering became intollerable. I have my own website now and invited folks who i knew would not get rediculous. Its main purpose is social contact. we discuss and often tease a bit just like on this site. I made it known that the site is a dictatorship. All the folks that go there have fun and we even sometimes talk about wine.
Why ruin a good thing with arguing and name calling. It wont change anyones mind


----------



## peterCooper (May 15, 2007)

As moderator of this thread I've been watching it pretty carefully and I am extremely pleased (and grateful)that all I've had to do is watch.

It is a testament to the people who use this forum that things just don't seem to get out of hand. Thank you all.

Peter


----------

