# Rose just not so good, what would you do?



## NorCal (Jan 5, 2021)

I made ten gallons of Rose this season. Acidified saignee from merlot, cab franc and then 100 pounds or so of grenache (5 gallons) that was given to me at 17 brix. I blended it all together and the results are less than impressive. No nose, thin, a flavor of pine needles and a bit acidic. The wine doesn’t have any fundamental flaws, just not that great to drink.

If it is a total loss, it‘s not the end of the world because the primary purpose of the Rose was to improve the quality of the Merlot barrel. However, I want to give a try to transform this into an enjoyable Rose.

I have a trial plan in mind, but I’d like to hear what you would try.


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## CDrew (Jan 5, 2021)

It's early. It's likely to get much better. I would not give up yet. I didn't think my Rose was good until April. But 17 brix is low, so hard to know if you're just dealing with underripe grapes. I don't have a ton of experience here, but that's my take.

10 gallons is the right amount of Rose to make, so I hope yours turns out drinkable. Good luck. I'll trade you when I bottle my Barbera Rose in the spring.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 5, 2021)

Does adding a bit of sugar help it in any way? Probably won't bring out the nose, but could hide the acid a bit.


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## heatherd (Jan 5, 2021)

NorCal said:


> I made ten gallons of Rose this year. Acidified saignee from merlot, cab franc and then 100 pounds or so of grenache (5 gallons) that was given to me at 17 brix. I blended it all together and the results are less than impressive. No nose, thin, a flavor of pine needles and a bit acidic. The wine doesn’t have any fundamental flaws, just not that great to drink.
> 
> If it is a total loss, it the end of the world because the primary purpose of the Rose was to improve the quality of the Merlot barrel. However, I want to give a try to transform this into an enjoyable Rose.
> 
> ...


Are all the measurements in line? If so, I think I'd do a bench trial of back-sweetening to see if that helps.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 5, 2021)

"If it is a total loss, it the end of the world"

Well, jeez, I hope you are wrong.


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## balatonwine (Jan 6, 2021)

NorCal said:


> I made ten gallons of Rose this year.



Being this the first week of 2021, I assume you mean last year, else that would be a very young wine indeed.... 

But I agree with with the idea of just let it do its thing for a few more months. It may be a loss, but it may also simply be young and needs to find itself.


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## Johnd (Jan 6, 2021)

If you do, learn from the dumping. Using 17 BRIX Grenache was questionable, to me anyway, that’s my fingerpoint for the rose’, which had some really good fruit in it.

That fruit either had ripening issues, was picked to soon, vineyard is poorly sited, vines were growing in the shade, something was wrong with it. It’s not just the sugar that doesn’t develop in those low BRIX situations, taste isn’t going to be on track either


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## VinesnBines (Jan 6, 2021)

After giving some time, see how it is in a sangria. The sweetness and fruit might be just what it needs. 17 Brix might be low or the grapes under ripe, but many Virginia wineries had to make Rose in 2018; the weather was so wet, the red grapes simply would not ripen. Most were able to come up with a passable Rose.


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## MiBor (Jan 6, 2021)

NorCal said:


> No nose, thin, a flavor of pine needles and a bit acidic. The wine doesn’t have any fundamental flaws, just not that great to drink.


Sounds a lot like the wine that Hennessy and Courvoisier are made out of. Just saying, in case it doesn't get better in a few months. An AirStill is a good device to have around the winemaking shop.


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## salcoco (Jan 6, 2021)

as suggested bench trial with sugar syrup would correct acid and might bring on the nose


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## Ignoble Grape (Jan 6, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> After giving some time, see how it is in a sangria. The sweetness and fruit might be just what it needs. 17 Brix might be low or the grapes under ripe, but many Virginia wineries had to make Rose in 2018; the weather was so wet, the red grapes simply would not ripen. Most were able to come up with a passable Rose.


Another vote for sangria - see what doctoring it up a bit does with other flavored liquors, some boone's farm maybe. That there's the beauty of home wine making -- you get to play with additions. I'm envisioning a large punchbowl/juice dispenser type set-up at your post-covid outdoor get together, the rose flowing freely on the back patio.


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## NorCal (Jan 6, 2021)

Johnd said:


> If you do, learn from the dumping. Using 17 BRIX Grenache was questionable, to me anyway, that’s my fingerpoint for the rose’, which had some really good fruit in it.
> 
> That fruit either had ripening issues, was picked to soon, vineyard is poorly sited, vines were growing in the shade, something was wrong with it. It’s not just the sugar that doesn’t develop in those low BRIX situations, taste isn’t going to be on track either


I think you may have nailed the source of the off wine.

The fruit came from a private vineyard. I knew they had Grenache as I used their fruit in 2013 and 2015. I contacted them on a few rows of grapes that I saw left on the vines, where it looked like the vineyard had been harvested. It ends up the fruit was petit verdot, but he said I was welcome to go through the vineyard and pick the Grenache clusters that were “missed” during harvest. I went and looked at the 4 acres of Grenache and I didn’t see enough fruit to make it worth my while and told the vineyard owner thank you, but I’ll pass. The next day he showed up at my door unannounced with 100-120 pounds of nice looking Grenache fruit. After crush and brix check is when I realized that it was only 17 brix and went the Rose route with it. I suspect it was under ripe, second growth fruit that was purposely not picked.

Thanks for the feedback. I was going to do some bench trials with sugar and perhaps deacidify it a bit, but I’ll take the suggestions and first give it more time to see if it comes around, before doing anything. I also like playing with other commercial additions to see if I can make something that perhaps others would like.


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## NorCal (Jan 6, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> "If it is a total loss, it the end of the world"
> 
> Well, jeez, I hope you are wrong.


Maybe I’m taking the Rose too seriously  Typo fixed.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 6, 2021)

@NorCal, so far I've not heard a good reason -- or any reason -- to dump the rose. I know you're disappointed, but this wine has a lot uses other than toilet bowl cleaner.

Giving the wine time is the easiest thing to do. Ignore it for 3 or 4 months and then test. If it's still disappointing:

Sangria and other wine drinks are refreshing in summer months. I make a quick drink with a bottle of wine + the juice of 1 orange, lemon, and lime, then sweeten to taste. Or you can coarsely grind fresh or canned fruit in a food processor and add to a bottle.
Backsweeten with juice, not sugar. Something strong flavored like cherry or pomegranate are good choices. Apricot or peach are interesting alternatives.
Marinades! This wine should be great for chicken, fish, and pork. Brining is normally done with water, but you may have a few gallons of wine handy.
Friends! Most people have friends that will drink anything with alcohol in it. If you have some, I'm sure they'll love free wine!
You have not lost a wine, you have gained alternatives!


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## balatonwine (Jan 6, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @NorCal, so far I've not heard a good reason -- or any reason -- to dump the rose.



Agree. 

And, also, It is, at the end of the day, a Rosé (and, yes (inserting pretentious comment here) I have the é key on my keyboard ). Not a world class wine. A Rosé can be a very nice wine. But also, no one should expect too much from it if. Especially from anyone who likes a large, bold red wine, which is certainly is not....


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## AaronSC (Jan 6, 2021)

I have "saved" wines like this with blending, if that's an option. Adding a small amount of an excessively fruity wine can turn something weedy and unripe into something palatable (hot tub wine). I have used catawba for this purpose and muscat -they are both a bit much on their own, but they can really pick up an herbaceous or otherwise dreary wine.

Are you in California? I have a lot of muscat -perhaps we can do a trade at some point?

-Aaron


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## NorCal (Jan 6, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @NorCal, so far I've not heard a good reason -- or any reason -- to dump the rose. I know you're disappointed, but this wine has a lot uses other than toilet bowl cleaner.
> 
> Giving the wine time is the easiest thing to do. Ignore it for 3 or 4 months and then test. If it's still disappointing:
> 
> ...


Good suggestions. What I have found is that when I make a wine that my wife and I do not like, it sits on the shelf, as there are other alternatives that are much more appealing. That happened to a second wine that I experimented with. It sat in the bottle and we didn't touch a single one. 

I am also reticent to give any of my wine to family and friends that I don't like; I have the K&K brand to uphold  However, I am not partial to sweet wines, but when I have made Skeeter Pee or Dragons Blood, it always finds a home. I like the idea of turning this into something sweet via some additions that will find its place with family and friends.


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## NorCal (Jan 6, 2021)

AaronSC said:


> I have "saved" wines like this with blending, if that's an option. Adding a small amount of an excessively fruity wine can turn something weedy and unripe into something palatable (hot tub wine). I have used catawba for this purpose and muscat -they are both a bit much on their own, but they can really pick up an herbaceous or otherwise dreary wine.
> 
> Are you in California? I have a lot of muscat -perhaps we can do a trade at some point?
> 
> -Aaron


I am in CA, as my name would suggest. Specifically Loomis CA outside of Sacramento. I'm totally up for trading for some Muscat.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 6, 2021)

You can actually bottle Sangria and keep chilled for a coupe weeks. I'm sure you know that a few commercial (small) wineries do bottle and sell.

I'm positive you can make it sweeter and it will find a home.


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## JohnT (Jan 7, 2021)

Hey Norcal, 

I wonder if MLF might soften the acidity and also provide a buttery quality?


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## NorCal (Jan 7, 2021)

JohnT said:


> Hey Norcal,
> 
> I wonder if MLF might soften the acidity and also provide a buttery quality?



Good idea. It did some level of spontaneous mlf, as it was bubbling on its own for a month. Not sure how far along it got.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 8, 2021)

My knee jerk reaction, like others is to bench trial with a little sugar. I've found that often, you don't even know it's there, but it does smooth things out. A little sugar also brings out the flavors in fruit wines, so you might get some help in that area as well. I like a nice, crisp Rose so for me, not playing with the acidity would be my preferred path. I do like the idea of possibly trying MLF too, though your pH may not allow for that, if your wine is already too acidic. There's also always the possibility of reducing acid w/ potassium bicarb and cold stabilization. 

So I guess my course(s) of action would be to first bench test with a little sugar. If that doesn't help (and pH allows for it), try MLF. Finally, an acid reduction. If still not there, you might then be in range to try MLF. But I can't imagine it getting to that point.


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## ibglowin (Jan 8, 2021)

Did I miss the numbers for pH and TA?


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## NorCal (Jan 8, 2021)

pH between 3.3 - 3.4, no TA numbers. Wine was cold stabilized for a week in a refrigerator, which did result in some fallout.


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## ibglowin (Jan 8, 2021)

You always read the spec sheets on Rose' wine and how they were harvested early for "peak acid" levels so kinda at a loss here except for the 17 Brix. Perhaps the grapes were just too far underripe and are the root cause for it being just not very good at the moment. Most Rose' are in the 13%ABV range and I think 17 Brix comes out to ~9%ABV .


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## cmason1957 (Jan 8, 2021)

I didn't think of this earlier, but I wonder if increasing the alcohol content a bit might help? Alcohol has a perceived sweetness to it as I recall and maybe at the ~9%ABV, it just doesn't add enough to be what your brain expects it to be. The 3.3-3.4 PH (maybe a little lower after the cold stabilization) seems to be about in the sweet spot for a Rose.


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## Snafflebit (Jan 8, 2021)

AaronSC said:


> I have "saved" wines like this with blending, if that's an option. Adding a small amount of an excessively fruity wine can turn something weedy and unripe into something palatable (hot tub wine). I have used catawba for this purpose and muscat -they are both a bit much on their own, but they can really pick up an herbaceous or otherwise dreary wine.
> 
> Are you in California? I have a lot of muscat -perhaps we can do a trade at some point?
> 
> -Aaron



Orange Muscat sounds like a good blender. Backsweetening the rosé might not be enough


(BTW, I need to type accents often so I have Windows set up with US English and International English keyboards and toggle between the two)


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## NorCal (Jan 8, 2021)

While I would not blend the red wine I make with other commercial wine, I am up for any additions to doctor this Rose back to health.

Maybe I will pick up a bottle of some different sweet barefoot wines (pink moscato, peach fruitscato) on the way home from work today. It will be a nice weekend project to see how much blending it would take to bring my Rose around. Hopefully not much. I'd rather cut my losses and dump 10 gallons than spend the $ and end up with 20 gallons of wine I don't like.


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## Snafflebit (Jan 8, 2021)

Mmmm, I will take a half-caf peach fruscitino frosé. Hold the whip


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## NorCal (Jan 9, 2021)

They only had the Barefoot pink moscato, decided to buy a 1.5 liter, with the buy 6 discount is $6.99 each. The Mrs. and I did our testing after dinner and a few glasses of wine, so we may want to repeat just to makes sure. 
I broke out the graduated cylinder and our mini tasting glasses and poured a few different Rose to Pink Moscato ratios.

1:0 confirmed undrinkable
2:1 too sweet
4:1 Ok
6:1 weakness showing
5:1 best this donkey will be

Choices at this point:
1. dump it
2. buy $40 of commercial wine, $80 of bottles/corks/labels and have 60 bottles of wine at $2 incremental cost to give away (few years?)

I had another thought. I’m assuming the whole corona thing will be at the point where we can safely get together with family this summer. We have family groups of 20+ from each side of the family over our house during the year and I suspect that will resume in 2021. Having this semi-sweet Rose would be a defensive move so that I can serve the less discriminating wine drinkers the Rose and not my Viognier and reds.


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## Snafflebit (Jan 9, 2021)

Having a sweeter wine around can be a crowd pleaser. I poured in a tasting room and I was surprised at the general skew in tastes towards sweeter wine. Perhaps even experiment with making it sparkling.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 9, 2021)

Do you have any family or friends to be a Guinea Pig/tester? If you could prepare a couple bottle and have the folks in your circle try it out, then you will know what they think.

Have you given up on letting it age?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 9, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> Perhaps even experiment with making it sparkling.



There's a good idea. A sweetened, sparkling rose is perfect for warm summer days and/or as an appetizer wine. Some prosciutto, salami, aged cheese and a bit of bubbly.


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## Snafflebit (Jan 9, 2021)

If the wine you made is weird tasting or hard to go back for another glass, I say give up. Or put it back in a cool place and revisit it in 3 years. No need to waste time and money on bad wine.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 9, 2021)

NorCal said:


> They only had the Barefoot pink moscato, decided to buy a 1.5 liter, with the buy 6 discount is $6.99 each. The Mrs. and I did our testing after dinner and a few glasses of wine, so we may want to repeat just to makes sure.
> I broke out the graduated cylinder and our mini tasting glasses and poured a few different Rose to Pink Moscato ratios.
> 
> 1:0 confirmed undrinkable
> ...



I hate giving my better wines to, as you so eloquently put it" less discriminating wine drinkers". They typically would prefer a sweeter wine anyway.


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## NorCal (Jan 10, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> Have you given up on letting it age?



I did lose sight of this and perhaps I should give it another few months before pulling the trigger. I don’t think time will do a lot to this light wine, but its winter and the wine would just sit in cases. I have nothing to gain by doing this now, besides getting it out of my hair, so I appreciate the reminder.


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## VinesnBines (Jan 10, 2021)

It is early to be thinking of bottling but I understand a bee in the bonnet!!! Ignore it awhile.


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## Booty Juice (Jan 11, 2021)

Those 17 brix Grenache grapes were obviously suboptimal, but like many have here have said - no need to dump it. Hopefully the overall ABV is ≥ 10.5.

Let it age another 4 or 5 months, then decide if you still want to alter it.

Deacidify.

Back sweeten with simple syrup.
Or,
Blend with a sweet white, either a cheap store-bought or Aaron's Muscat (I believe he's just two counties south of you?)
Or,
Alter with a commercial product - there are dozens of concentrates to choose from.

"Bench testing" is a great excuse for a party!


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> It is early to be thinking of bottling but I understand a bee in the bonnet!!! Ignore it awhile.


Well done at lassoing this back to good ol ‘patience’. Even though rosé is typically ready early it’s still only January. I have one from the fall and have yet to evaluate. Still letting clear and giving it a dose of winter temps right now in the shed for CS.

Perhaps as it ages this cab/merlot/franc/grenache rosé could also benefit from CS. Could maybe knock back some of the acidity a bit which help the perception of thinness. Just a thought.


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## NorCal (Jan 11, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Well done at lassoing this back to good ol ‘patience’. Even though rosé is typically ready early it’s still only January. I have one from the fall and have yet to evaluate. Still letting clear and giving it a dose of winter temps right now in the shed for CS.
> 
> Perhaps as it ages this cab/merlot/franc/grenache rosé could also benefit from CS. Could maybe knock back some of the acidity a bit which help the perception of thinness. Just a thought.


It spent a week in the fridge, some, but not a lot of fallout.


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## NorCal (Jan 17, 2021)

I made a few bottles with the muscat blend to give it around 1% residual sugar. It was well received at the barn where we board a horse.



However, @4score went over the top with getting reviews. Thank you!


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## Snafflebit (Jan 17, 2021)

Great video! Takes me back to my softball days. The combination of malic acid and a little RS will taste like apple.


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## Booty Juice (Jan 18, 2021)

*Excellent post! More video please!*

Even with suboptimal fruit, the additional fraction of sweetness accentuated it's qualities. "Approachable" - perfect description.

I make 4 cases a year from premium grapes, always add a* tiny* bit of RS from either simple syrup or a sweet white, and must ration how much I serve to have any left for labor day. I'll be making 6 cases a year going forward.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 18, 2021)

Great video, @4score

Glad the tweaks appear to be working.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 19, 2021)

I love the solution! And the video!


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## David Lewis (Jan 21, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> There's a good idea. A sweetened, sparkling rose is perfect for warm summer days and/or as an appetizer wine. Some prosciutto, salami, aged cheese and a bit of bubbly.


I was thinking this exactly.... I've started to play with more fruit wines and ciders while I have the time. Its interesting what a little sugar and some bubbles do to a pretty underwhelming wine. And if you get really creative you can backsweeten it with vanilla or pistachio to give it a fun little kick. It may never be the wine that you intended it to be.. but it can still be fun in the sun.

and yes, I realize that I am way late to the game on this one after going through all the comments ;-) The video says it all, nicely done.


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## Glidewaves (Jan 21, 2021)

Just a noob here when it comes to winemaking but I work for an importer of some of the finest rosè out of France and have tasted hundreds of them. I agree that blending is the way to go. It sounds to me like you'd benefit from blending a more aromatic varietal such as Viognier to lift up the other flavors as opposed to something sweet. Playing with sugar when it's not natural is like playing with fire IMO. I love your video.


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## NorCal (Feb 10, 2021)

We did another tasting and decided blending was the way to go and stuck with the muscat blend % that we trialed. I racked all the Rose, into a brute, blended, SO2’d and put back into the carboys. I’ll let it sit for a few weeks and then bring it in the house for a while to see if I have any fermentation going on, to give me some confidence (not absolute) I won’t have issues later.


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## NorCal (Apr 16, 2021)

It was a bit warm last night and I brought a few bottles of my wine to a community socially distanced meeting. There were two local commercial wines, my rose and my cab franc blend (best wine I’ve made to date IMO).
The wine that went first and people couldn’t stop talking about....the rose. Go figure. It’s not my cup of tea and I was worried I’d have it laying around for years, but it looks like I will be bringing it to gatherings as we start to open up and it will be enjoyed by others.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 16, 2021)

NorCal said:


> The wine that went first and people couldn’t stop talking about....the rose.


Call it a win and bask in the glory!

All jokes aside, I'm happy for you that you found an audience that appreciates the wine.


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## sjjan (Apr 17, 2021)

NorCal said:


> I made a few bottles with the muscat blend to give it around 1% residual sugar. It was well received at the barn where we board a horse.
> View attachment 70584
> 
> 
> However, @4score went over the top with getting reviews. Thank you!



So nice to see the video where people actually comment on your wine! Wish I could taste some for real. Looks from my perspective here in Europe a bit strange to see wine poured into plastic glasses. What did you use to add the 1% residual sugar? Some sweet concentrated grape juice?


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## joeswine (Apr 17, 2021)

Ok here's mt 2 cents, only if it were mine I'd saute 1 lb of strawberries then add simple syrup and blend them into the wine.making provisions that fermentation doesn't start again you'll add taste and structure to the wine Rose' are normally thin to med body , time to think outside the Box


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## Booty Juice (Apr 22, 2021)

Awesome - but totally not surprised that the Rose' was a hit. I've learned there is a place for approachable, socially appealing wines as well as the ABV / extract monsters preferred by connoisseurs. I personally now make all my wines for the friends and family who drink them, which means the lighter side. When I want a fruit bomb, I have plenty of access elsewhere.


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