# Sake or Saki



## Boozehag (May 1, 2009)

I have my asian friend here who is tellnig me interesting stuff about Sake.

I thought I might try make some-

what do others think, anyone made some?
Winemaking Ingredients: Rice Wine (Saki) Wine Recipe - Wine Making Guides
1 lb / 450 grams crushed rice
1 lb / 450 grams minced or chopped sultanas
8 pints / 1 gallon water
2 lemons
Wine yeast and nutrient

Winemaking Method: Rice Wine (Saki) Wine Recipe - Wine Making Guides
Put the rice and sultanas into a bucket and pour on the boiling water. When cool and add the lemon juice and wine yeast and nutrient. Cover and leave for five days, stirring daily. Pour into a demijohn and fit an airlock and leave to ferment.

When fermentation has ceased, rack the wine into a clean jar and place in a cooler environment and leave for a further few months. Rack again if necessary and leave until the wine is clear and stable and then bottle.


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## cpfan (May 1, 2009)

Coll:

I'm not really interested in trying to make sake, but I know that there are some sites on the web devoted to sake brewing. Here's one of them.

http://www.taylor-madeak.org/index.php/2008/02/29/how-to-make-sake-at-home-a-taylor-made-g

Steve


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## kiljoy (May 1, 2009)

True sake requires koji mold. Anything else is just rice wine. Whick did you want to make?

http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/2,1465.html


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## Boozehag (May 1, 2009)

Thanks for those links. Didnt know about the koji mold, I think if Im gonig to make it I should make it properly so will see if I can buy that here. 

If its not too complicated of course!


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 2, 2009)

Boozehag said:


> If its not too complicated of course!


The traditional Japanese brewing method does appear to be very complicated at first glance, but don't let that scare you off! Once you realize that it's a clear and linear progression of steps, the art of brewing real saké at home suddenly becomes much simpler to your perception. 

While I'm here, however, I have some comments on the recipe you posted:



Boozehag said:


> Winemaking Ingredients: Rice Wine (Saki) Wine Recipe - Wine Making Guides
> 1 lb / 450 grams crushed rice
> 1 lb / 450 grams minced or chopped sultanas
> 8 pints / 1 gallon water
> ...


I've seen variations of this before, and my first response is always the same: for quite a number of reasons, *it just isn't saké*. Almost all of your fermentables are contributed by the raisins (maybe a little from the lemons), which is what ferments. The rice starches - what little of them that get gelatinized by the brief boiling water soak - won't be fermented because:



kiljoy said:


> True sake requires koji mold. Anything else is just rice wine.



_Koji_ is the source for the amylolytic enzymes required to convert gelatinized rice starch into fermentable sugar. No _koji_, no saké. Without it, the starch either encourages wild yeast/bacteria infections (which is why lemon juice is called for - to lower the pH and retard that kind of activity) or just gets left behind when you rack the wine off the lees. 

This recipe won't even make rice wine because the rice contributes no fermentables to the must/mash, therefore what you're really making is some kind of raisin wine. 

I daresay it would probably result in a better tasting end product if you left out the rice altogether and cut back the lemon juice by half.



cpfan said:


> Coll:
> 
> I'm not really interested in trying to make sake, but I know that there are some sites on the web devoted to sake brewing. Here's one of them.


Thanks for the linkback! 

I'm always available to answer questions, guys. There's an e-mail form on my web site, linked above in cpfan's post and below in my sig: please feel free to make use of it. I'll also be watching for e-mail notifications of replies to this thread.


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## Boozehag (May 3, 2009)

Hey thanks for that amazing feedback. I personally feel that there is not much point in making Sake if I dotn make it properly so Im gonig to run with your advice.
To think I could have make raisin wine! I am off to visit my local home brew shop tomorrow so shall ask about the Koji and if they dont have it ,Ill send off for some. 
Thank goodness I asked! Ill pop along to your site for a more comprhensive look later on today. Really appreciate your help and advice.

Collette


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## smurfe (May 3, 2009)

Sake is pretty easy to make. Man brew shops have the inoculation kits for Sake. All you do is find the proper rice and in 2-4 weeks you have some Sake. Pretty good stuff.


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 3, 2009)

Boozehag said:


> Hey thanks for that amazing feedback. I personally feel that there is not much point in making Sake if I dotn make it properly so Im gonig to run with your advice.
> To think I could have make raisin wine! I am off to visit my local home brew shop tomorrow so shall ask about the Koji and if they dont have it ,Ill send off for some.
> Thank goodness I asked! Ill pop along to your site for a more comprhensive look later on today. Really appreciate your help and advice.
> 
> Collette



Always happy to help!

Few homebrew shops sell _koji_ in its prepared form (F.H. Steinbart Co. is the lone exception), but many stock the _koji-kin_ spores marketed by Vision Brewing. Also, if there are grocery stores near where you live that cater to Japanese tastes, you may be able to find Cold Mountain Koji in the refrigerator next to the miso. Buying that for your first few batches of sake is a whole lot easier than diving right into trying to master incubating your own _koji_ from scratch, so I heartily recommend buying the prepared _koji_ if you can find it.


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## arcticsid (May 4, 2009)

Taylor, just wondring if you are up here too! Please post your location under your profile. I am interested in the sake, but haven't had the time yet to explore your posts etc.
Troy


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 4, 2009)

Oops, my bad. Anchorage, Alaska. 

I'll get the profile thing sorted out post haste.


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## arcticsid (May 4, 2009)

Nice to have you on board, for a long time I was the only Alaskan in the whole place, glad to have a neighbor amongst us, still am looking forward to reading more about the sake. Can you find the koji in Anchorage, I was thinking New Sa***a( a large oriental grocer in Anchorage). I worked there several years ago, they seem to have all kinds of out of the ordinary stuff.

Troy


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 7, 2009)

Yeah, New Saga`ya's (I can't believe this forum filters the word "g a y" out of that name - come on, homosexuality or happiness is *not* profanity, no matter how the teenagers use the word! ) midtown store sells Cold Mountain Koji. You really have to know it's there in the fridge next the miso, however, because most of the employees have never even heard of the product.


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## Boozehag (May 7, 2009)

No luck getting Koji in Hamilton, so will make a trip to Auckland soon and get some from there, theyre more multi-cultural there thank goodness! Cant wait to make sake...


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## St Allie (May 7, 2009)

Is it something I can pick up and post Coll?


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 7, 2009)

_Koji_ is perishable. It needs to be refrigerated, so consider an ice pack.


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## smurfe (May 7, 2009)

Taylor-MadeAK said:


> Yeah, New Saga`ya's (I can't believe this forum filters the word "g a y" out of that name - come on, homosexuality or happiness is *not* profanity, no matter how the teenagers use the word!



That should be fixed.


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## arcticsid (May 7, 2009)

Does koji have alchohol in it? Is it something they would ship up to me Taylor?
On a side note that is a great asian store, I worked in the seafood dept., we carried over 200 types of seafood. Miss all the fresh seaweed!

I too would love to give sake a try, I may call down there and see about shipping. Is this stuff in a bottle is it a powder, a liquid, etc.? Is it super expensive? How much do you use, how long is the shelf life on this?
Thanks for bringing your sake knowledge to the post.

Troy


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## arcticsid (May 7, 2009)

I quess we can't talk about sassafrass and I won't beable to describe my truck as bitchin. LOL. What if my name was Gaylord?
Troy


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 7, 2009)

smurfe said:


> That should be fixed.


Thanks! I wasn't trying to make an issue out of it, but I always think it's silly to have a word filter on a forum intended to be populated entirely by adults over age 21 (or whatever the variable legal drinking age is in other countries).



arcticsid said:


> Does koji have alchohol in it? Is it something they would ship up to me Taylor?
> On a side note that is a great asian store, I worked in the seafood dept., we carried over 200 types of seafood. Miss all the fresh seaweed!
> 
> I too would love to give sake a try, I may call down there and see about shipping. Is this stuff in a bottle is it a powder, a liquid, etc.? Is it super expensive? How much do you use, how long is the shelf life on this?
> ...


No, _koji_ doesn't contain any alcohol. New Sagaya stocks it because it's also used to make _miso_, _amazaké_, and soy sauce. It's just rice that's been incubated with mold spores until it's entirely covered in the fuzzy white mold. The product New Sagaya sells is "Cold Mountain Firm Granular Rice Koji," and it comes in 20 ounce tubs:







To turn ten pounds of rice into about three gallons of sake, you'll need *two* of those tubs of _koji_. Before shipping, it'll run you about $15.

For everyone's reference, my typical saké recipe looks like this:

```
10.00 lbs (4.54 kg)    	 Short grain white rice
40.00 oz  (1.13 kg)     Cold Mountain Rice Koji (2x 20 oz tubs)
 2.00 gal (7.60 l)      Cold water
 0.75 tsp (4.00 gm)     Brewer's yeast nutrient
 1.00 pn  (0.70 gm) 	 Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate - MgSO4)
 1.25 tsp (7.00 gm)     Morton Salt Substitute (potassium chloride - KCl)
 1.00 pack    	         WYeast Sake #9 Yeast
```


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## WildSeedGrrrl (May 8, 2009)

I've been reading this thread and suddenly i have an urge to make Sake.


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 8, 2009)

WildSeedGrrrl said:


> I've been reading this thread and suddenly i have an urge to make Sake.


Then my subliminal messages have been successful!


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## Boozehag (May 8, 2009)

I cant wait to start too. Ill post more when I have something to report back on.

Allie Id take you up on the offer but think its a good excuse to come visit instead! 
Need to free up some carboys and a primary first too.

I have a rice steamer and everything else, just need the Koji


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## St Allie (May 8, 2009)

Heheheh Coll..

I look forward to you visiting..Will save the best of the apple wine for you!

Off topic somewhat.. considering people here actually WANT to make sake...

Ghastly stuff!.. I really don't like sake at all..


Allie


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 9, 2009)

St Allie said:


> Off topic somewhat.. considering people here actually WANT to make sake...
> 
> Ghastly stuff!.. I really don't like sake at all..


If you're referring to the served-hot-and-tastes-faintly-toxic saké served at your local sushi ya, then it's no wonder you say it's ghastly - that's the bottom shelf stuff! I assert that you've yet to taste a chilled glass of _junmai ginjo_ ("all rice" "premium") saké, which can easily be remedied by a visit to a reputable local liquor store. I doubt that my personal favorite (Momokawa Diamond) is available there in New Zealand, but Ozeki makes a reasonably decent product and that brand is pretty ubiquitous. Just remember: _junmai ginjo_, and if you have the option, start with a saké with a SMV range of 0 to -3.

Do you like beer? How about light continental styles like kölsch? A well made homebrew saké is a lot like a well made kölsch in its flavor and aroma profile: it's bitter, grainy, faintly fruity, and (in it's _genshu_ undiluted state) warming. It can also range from very dry to very sweet, though I tend to prefer mine on the dry side.


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## Boozehag (May 9, 2009)

Lol. Ghastley stuff, I think not! i have enjoyed some premium sake at times and taylor, have to say Ive never had sake hot...do they really do that???? Sounds like mulled wine as in not nice!!!!!

Ill intro Allie to the good stuff, bet she'll change her mind about it then!!!


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 9, 2009)

Hot saké is all too common, unfortunately. Here in Anchorage sushi ya and Japanese restaurants in general are experiencing something of a boom, and every one of them will bring you a steaming _tokkuri_ if you fail to specify that you prefer your saké chilled. They also want a disproportionately large amount of money for their saké, which absolutely blows my mind: I can buy a 750 ml bottle of some of the best _junmai ginjo_ saké I've ever tasted (the American made Momokawa Diamond) at my local liquor store for $11 USD, but my favorite Japanese restaurant wants $25 for a bottle of Ozeki! 

Fortunately, I'm friends with the Koren folks who own the place, and they like my saké...so I never get yelled at for bringing in my own bottle if I want some with my sushi.


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## kiljoy (May 9, 2009)

In my book, "Windows on the World: Complete Wine Course", the author states that the standard practice for a restaurant is to charge (per glass), what they paid for the bottle (wholesale).

As for ordering Saki; we ordered it warmed in a Thai restaurant. When they bought it, it was hot, but the container was ice cold. They must have microwaved it, then put it back in the chilled containers.


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## St Allie (May 9, 2009)

Yes it was served hot.. yucky!

I shall have to try it again.

Allie


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 9, 2009)

'Atta girl!

My wife says she doesn't like saké either, but she'll drink my _ginjo_ saké.


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## Boozehag (May 17, 2009)

Hey Taylor, I found an asian supermarket here but they are more geared up for Chinese people rather than Japanese so didnt know what Koji is. I explained what I was looking for and they showed me a glass jar with fermented rice in it, I couldnt see any name on it that was in English so thought I should come back and ask if Im on the right track or should I wait until I can find actual koji?

Ive been cleaning out my bottles that Ive set aside for my sake and shopping around for sake cups and a decanter....I want it to look good!

Oh and second question, how long from the start of making it can you drink sake?


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 18, 2009)

Boozehag said:


> Hey Taylor, I found an asian supermarket here but they are more geared up for Chinese people rather than Japanese so didnt know what Koji is. I explained what I was looking for and they showed me a glass jar with fermented rice in it, I couldnt see any name on it that was in English so thought I should come back and ask if Im on the right track or should I wait until I can find actual koji?


Almost impossible for me to say without seeing a picture of the product in question. If they're geared toward Chinese, you could ask if it's "_qū meí jūn_." Also, since it's a glass jar, you can just inspect the product to see if it *looks* like _koji_.



Boozehag said:


> Ive been cleaning out my bottles that Ive set aside for my sake and shopping around for sake cups and a decanter....I want it to look good!


Just remember: real sake is yellow. With that in mind, I rather like this glass sake set (browse that web site, there are a lot of really sexy sake sets there!) for presenting and serving my sake to guests. If I'm drinking by myself, though, I usually stick with my masu. I also find that nothing beats a shot glass for giving a small sample to someone who has never tried sake before.



Boozehag said:


> Oh and second question, how long from the start of making it can you drink sake?


It's about six weeks from the start of _moto_ to the day you bottle and re-pasteurize clear sake - about the same as for your average beer, actually, but you don't have to wait for sake to bottle condition. It does benefit from a few months of aging, however, so I generally don't open my first bottle from a batch until about 5 months after I started making it.


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## Boozehag (May 18, 2009)

oh thanks so much for sharing that information.

I think I like the set of sakeware that you showed first the best! Second is this one set just because its a bit random!
I remember drinking sake at a friends house years ago and he had a proper set which made the experience even more enriching. I dont think it would be so special out of ordinary glasses...but agreed shot glasses are perfect for sampling anyway!!!!

Ill go ask the shop people tomorrow if that stuff they showed me is "qū meí jūn." It certainly looks like that picture you showed me. 
How much is it you need for a one gallon batch? Oh I can check your site for that cant i?!?


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## Boozehag (May 18, 2009)

Oh and I forgot to say, the mesu looks difficult to drink out of....is it??? Do you spill any out the sides? My friend has square coffee cups and we all agreed we couldnt drink out of them properly!! Mybe sake is easier!!!!


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 18, 2009)

Boozehag said:


> Ill go ask the shop people tomorrow if that stuff they showed me is "qū meí jūn." It certainly looks like that picture you showed me.
> How much is it you need for a one gallon batch? Oh I can check your site for that cant i?!?


You'll need 20 ounces for a half batch of sake (yields ~1.5 gal).



Boozehag said:


> Oh and I forgot to say, the mesu looks difficult to drink out of....is it??? Do you spill any out the sides? My friend has square coffee cups and we all agreed we couldnt drink out of them properly!! Mybe sake is easier!!!!


Drinking out of a _masu_ isn't difficult at all. The trick is not to attempt to drink from the side - drink from a corner.


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## Boozehag (May 19, 2009)

Yikes, think Ill wait until I can get up to Auckland, the stuff here is $8.00 NZD for 250gm


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 20, 2009)

Google says the exchange rate for NZD to USD is 1:0.6037, which sounds about right to me given the amount of _koji_ you need. I pay $8.00 USD per 20 ounce tub of _koji_ here in Alaska, which works out to pretty close to what you're looking at paying for the ~500 gm you need. 

I dunno, maybe you'll find it cheaper up in Auckland, but I'm just saying that what they're asking for it isn't unreasonable in my limited experience.


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## Boozehag (May 20, 2009)

Gosh didnt read that properly, for some reasons I thuogth I needed about 5 times that amount! That seems much better. Ill go buy some then!
Finally have a day I can do stuff with so Im off to sort that now!
Thanks for your help and patience!


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## arcticsid (May 20, 2009)

Coll, becareful with that sake, if you start posting in here in Japanese, I will become quite worried about you. LOL Also I heard drinking from a square glass something that was made in a round vessel may not always turn out as planned especially if it dribbles out the edge.

Furansugo o hanishimsu ka?
Troy


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 20, 2009)

Hey, no worries, it's totally understandable that the conversions woul throw anyone off. You said you want to make a half batch to start with, and that will require 20 ounces of koji if you're following my recipe. Converting that to metric for you yields 20 ounces = 567 grams, rounding off to the nearest whole gram.


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## Boozehag (May 20, 2009)

Taylor I have converted your receipe to 1/3, thankfully you have it in metric so its easy to convert. I only have 54.5litre or 23 litre carboys so thought Id start off with the smaller one and see what thats like.

My friend who doesnt drink wine is keen to try the sake so Im making it a priority over my other wines its todays mission to get started! Ill be reading the pages on your site many times while I create it, so I dont get it wrong. Its a great guide you have created, thank you for all the info. Ill keep you posted with my progress!

Troy, what the????? Even google translater didnt know what you said!!!!


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## St Allie (May 20, 2009)

23 litres of sake?

omg you know it tastes like methylated spirits smells, right?

you can always dissolve shellac flakes with it Collette hehehehe



Allie


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 20, 2009)

Google couldn't translate it because it wasn't in Japanese characters, it's written in the common Anglicization of Japanese known as Romanji.

Boozehag, the most important thing you should take away from this thread is this: *don't use a carboy for primary fermentation when making saké*. You need to be able to get in there and add ingredients like steamed rice, as well as be able to stir the _moto_ and early _moromi_ stages. A food grade plastic bucket with tight fitting lid is an appropriate container for this, not a carboy. Okay?


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## Boozehag (May 20, 2009)

Oh I wasnt gonig to use the carboy....sorry if I gave that impression. I planned on using my primary bucket for that.

Just a quick question though, I didnt quite get if the rice weight is on dry or steamed weight?


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 21, 2009)

Always dry measurement (volume/weight) for rice. =)

*Edit:* I'm not too hot with metric for making saké, but I want to point out that when using US "standard" measurements, everything is done in volumetric measurements and is based around the standard 10 pound bag (or 5 pound bag if doing a half batch) of rice sold in our markets. You'll notice that discrepancy when reading the guide: the ingredients in the recipe itself are listed by weight because that's how they are sold, but in the process section of the guide all ingredient amounts are given as *cups* (8 fluid ounces). In answer to a request from another forum I added some quick metric conversions, but they're listed in *grams* - which I know can't be a correct conversion (8 fluid ounces of rice can't , but all metric recipes I've ever seen for pretty much anything measures all dry ingredients by grams rather than by milliliters.

I did the best I could. If you can improve upon it, I'd welcome any corrections you can suggest. Almost all of those metric amounts came out of Fred Eckhardt's saké PDF, so I assumed they were pretty accurate.


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## Boozehag (May 21, 2009)

Thanks for that, all good so far, any errors Im sure will be on my part, but hey we do learn from mistakes after all!!!


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## Taylor-MadeAK (May 21, 2009)

Ain't that the truth!


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## arcticsid (May 21, 2009)

Coll, it means, "do you speak French?"


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## Boozehag (May 21, 2009)

I speak a colourful language I call french but I doubt its the same one youre talking about!


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## Taylor-MadeAK (Jun 20, 2009)

Any luck with that first batch, Boozehag?


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## Boozehag (Jun 20, 2009)

Hi Taylor, Im just about to rack to secondary. Must say its a full on procedure but its looking and smellnig fine so far so all good.


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## Taylor-MadeAK (Jun 23, 2009)

Glad to hear it! I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out. =)


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## donnaclif (Jun 25, 2009)

I believe sake is a japanese beer made from rice and not a wine?


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## Taylor-MadeAK (Jun 25, 2009)

donnaclif said:


> I believe sake is a japanese beer made from rice and not a wine?



It is neither a wine (because it contains no fruit) nor a beer (because it contains no hops or carbonation). Saké deserves to be in a separate category, I call it: Asian _jiu_.


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