# new welding kit advice



## Ajmassa (May 29, 2021)

winemakers are a crafty and versatile group so i wanted to seek some advice. 

i want to purchase a welding kit for home shop use, repairs, and different little fabrication projects but my knowledge is extremely limited. When i started to look into this for a “homeowner friendly” type of kit i realized there’s a lot i don’t know. 

I am a carpenter by trade. But back when i served my apprenticeship we did have a few welding classes with the oxy/acetylene torch & stick welding. a lot of guys struggled but i picked it up nicely. That’s the extent of my experience. 17 yrs ago. 

so if anyone’s familiar with the differences between flux and stick welding, would love to hear your thoughts/recommendations. i don’t care about cutters. i’ll just use saws & grinders for that. But i would like to be able to weld multiple types of metal, stainless steel included.


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## toadie (May 29, 2021)

Not a welder but brazing (with a torch) is generally not as useful as welding. Oxy/acetylene is super useful for cutting and heating things but stick welding is the way to go. 8011 rods are the general purpose go to (I think I have the number right). That said I have used a mig welder lately and that might be the way to go for a diyer. Also plasma cutter is on my wish list and might be used instead of a torch tho I don't have any experience with one.

Funny story. My dad is a millwright. At his brothers funeral his small talk revolved around not understanding how people could live without a welder. His somewhat stylish sister took a look at his shoes, which were dirty, and said I don't know how anyone could live without a shoe brush. The conversation ended but I think they both might have had good points.


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## Ajmassa (May 29, 2021)

toadie said:


> Not a welder but brazing (with a torch) is generally not as useful as welding. Oxy/acetylene is super useful for cutting and heating things but stick welding is the way to go. 8011 rods are the general purpose go to (I think I have the number right). That said I have used a mig welder lately and that might be the way to go for a diyer. Also plasma cutter is on my wish list and might be used instead of a torch tho I don't have any experience with one.
> 
> Funny story. My dad is a millwright. At his brothers funeral his small talk revolved around not understanding how people could live without a welder. His somewhat stylish sister took a look at his shoes, which were dirty, and said I don't know how anyone could live without a shoe brush. The conversation ended but I think they both might have had good points.


hmmm. so brazing allows the joining of 2 different metals together im seeing. whereas welding this isn’t really typical or easy. why do you think wouldn’t that be more useful than standard stick welding? 

also appreciate that story about your father lol.


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## toadie (May 29, 2021)

I will defer to professionals in this area but brazing is more about bonding things like brass and copper whereas welding is more about bonding iron to iron. 

If you are trying to make a fancy trellis or fixing a trailer it seems to me a welder is the way to go. Also turn that thing up and you can cut stuff by melting it. One downfall is that you need 220, but that seems reasonable to me.


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## Ajmassa (May 29, 2021)

toadie said:


> I will defer to professionals in this area but brazing is more about bonding things like brass and copper whereas welding is more about bonding iron to iron.
> 
> If you are trying to make a fancy trellis or fixing a trailer it seems to me a welder is the way to go. Also turn that thing up and you can cut stuff by melting it. One downfall is that you need 220, but that seems reasonable to me.



honestly i don’t have many specific use cases in mind just yet except one project, but i know that’ll change once i jump in. I want to modify a stainless steel cart i’ve got, along with my SS crusher/destemmer shoot & stand and the crusher/destemmer itself to build a custom mobile setup to my needs. 

requires some cutting and welding. did some more digging and check this one out. 

it’s a plasma, TIG, and stick 3in1 combo unit for medium duty homeowner type stuff. 





VIVOHOME 3 In 1 Multi-functional Plasma Cutter Cutting TIG STICK/MMA Non Touch Pilot Arc Welding Machine Dual Voltage 110/220V CT520DF Blue - - Amazon.com


VIVOHOME 3 In 1 Multi-functional Plasma Cutter Cutting TIG STICK/MMA Non Touch Pilot Arc Welding Machine Dual Voltage 110/220V CT520DF Blue - - Amazon.com



amzn.to





found on this blog of tool reviews








14 Best Plasma Cutters with TIG /Stick Welder Combo Options


Plasma cutters use an electric arc to cut metal. This advantage makes them the best way to cut any type of metal. It’s easy to cut curves and sharp corners, and you don’t have a rough edge to grind. A plasma cutter leaves a perfectly smooth finish, without any effort. In a home, or garage […]




comfortworkboots.com


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## toadie (May 29, 2021)

I was wondering if you wanted to do stainless. I think you are never going to be happy with the results and it might be better to find a local shop. If you don't care about looks go for it. It is a specialty, you need different temps and different rods. That said the combo might be fun to use. Tig sounds like fun plus I believe it uses argon which you could also use to fill air space in carboys.


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## sour_grapes (May 29, 2021)

From my vantage point, it is weird that you post this today!

I have always been a welder "dilletante." I have used oxy/acetylene in the past. I broke down a few years ago and bought a MIG unit. This is nice, in that it is sort of a "hot glue gun for metal" within certain parameter restrictions. However, just today, I was thinking that I should break down and buy a TIG welder (in my retirement  )

AFAIK, you cannot do much with stainless other than with TIG. So, if SS is a requirement, go TIG.


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## Ajmassa (May 29, 2021)

toadie said:


> . I think you are never going to be happy with the results and it might be better to find a local shop.



NEVER!! I could never/would never have someone else make that. I don’t care about sloppy welds or jagged cuts— that could be cleaned up after the fact. And it’s not something very important so i don’t care how long it would take either. 

tooling up and figuring it all out myself is a large part of the reason why i want to do it. And this combo plasma cutter/stick welder/TIG welder (or another similar kit) is screaming my name!


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## sour_grapes (May 30, 2021)

BTW, I am old enough that at one time there was no such thing as "TIG." It was called "Heli-arc." The term "TIG" came later (that is, if I recall correctly!).


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## sour_grapes (May 30, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> I don’t care about sloppy welds or jagged cuts— that could be cleaned up after the fact. And it’s not something very important so i don’t care how long it would take either.



It depends on what you are doing! A jagged weld on something structural is fine. A poor weld on something that needs to be hermetically sealed is another matter!


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## toadie (May 30, 2021)

Yeah never is a little strong! I would do exactly what you are doing but practice a lot on other stuff first. Ironically the uncle who passed away in the previous story was a fancy welder. From what I understand he mostly did stainless welding of tanker trucks and factory stuff. Kind of a specialty in a specialty.


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## DaveMcC (May 30, 2021)

The big box outlets (Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply, Northern Tool) all sell smaller wire feed arc welders (MIG if you use a CO2/Argon mix, known as C25 gas) or without gas a "flux core" wire. They are not very hard to learn and master and run off of 120 VAC current. Dialing in the right feed rate for the wire and setting the appropriate current for your project are about the hardest thing. Use one around our farm property all the time. They are good for smaller projects, angle steel, small plate steel, welding a nut to an angle iron to make a threaded connection. That sort of thing.


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## vacuumpumpman (May 30, 2021)

I do see where they are selling MiG/TIG /stick combo welders - here's a nice one for a decent price = Lincoln Electric 140 Amp LE31MP Multi-Process Stick/MIG/TIG Welder with Magnum Pro 100L Gun, MIG and Flux-Cored Wire, Single Phase, 120V-K3461-1 - The Home Depot


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## Cynewulf (May 30, 2021)

My brother does all his own welding and said he’s been happy with this Eastwood for home use: MIG Welder 110VAC/ 135A Output. Said he’s never welded flux core with it but mig is going to outperform flux and the tanks are reasonably inexpensive. I was visiting last week and was really impressed with his house project where he took out the interior wall between the stairwell and living room and replaced it with this metal railing system he fabricated that will eventually be topped by a walnut hand rail:


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## DaveMcC (May 30, 2021)

I like that Eastwood unit. You can do a lot of projects around the home with welders of that size.


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## scruff_farrier (May 30, 2021)

So I'll jump in a little here. I am a true DIY-er and like to tinker. Everyone has very good points. Also this is one of those things that is true with crap in and crap + frustration out. I was raised using a stick welder and "farmer" 7011 rod. It is the "general purpose rod". It's not great at anything, but not truly bad at anything either. It's fairly cheap and you can get "bubble gum welds" that's were it looks like a hunk of chewing gum on the metal but will normally hold anything on anything. Almost out of the box to with no experience, I had my 15 year old niece weld with it the other day. That being said, it is possible to weld with stick in thin melt, not easy or convenient but is possible. It's mainly for thicker metal. It's a little less expensive and you could probably find a older farmer stick welder on craigslist for around a 100 that would last you years of use. Rods a easy to get once you get the hang and do a little research on what type and thickness of rod to use. Now Mig is another beast generally they can be used for thicker metal, but are great for sheet metal type things. it tends to be more expensive and a little more fustrating because of the set up and learning curve. Wire feed problems and the use of flux core wire can be enough to make you want to throw the stupid thing out of the garage, let me tell you how I know. You can buy a cheap mig welder from harbor freight, really they aren't terrible and for DIY you don't need a Lincoln or big name. But I know from experience it takes a while to learn how to set it up and get even passible results. But mig is very easy to upgrade once you get the hang of it. You can buy a tank with welding gas, everyone has a opinion but I use straight argon and with that upgrade to solid core wire to, which almost...almost eliminates wire feed problems. It becomes like someone said almost a hot glue gun for metal. When ever I talk to someone trying to pick up welding I always suggest a stick welder first because it's cheap and not nearly as fustrating to learn, but then you will want a mig eventually so it tends to be a question of the person's demeanor on how stubborn they will be in learning it. I am not a professional welder and most of my welds tend to be bubble gum welds, haha. But I just did tack together a cultivator for the garden the other day and it didn't break a weld in the acre of dirt I dragged. Just my opinion in things. Hope my rambling will help you gleam a little more info on top of everyone elses suggestions.


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## CDrew (May 30, 2021)

I've been a hobby welder for 20 years. Its hard to give specific advice, but I'll give you a few observations. The best money you can spend it to take a welding course or three at the local JC. It's really helpful.

You probably will not be welding stainless. That's TIG territory and requires more stuff. Different welder, different gas and a different skill set. You can do some stainless with a spool gun on a MIG unit, but it won't look good.

A MIG unit will be what you want. And you'll want a 220v machine. I am not a huge fan of flux core unless out in the wild, so you'll need a gas cylinder too. But flux core is great for out in the field repairs where you need to weld uncleaned metal in the wind or what ever. I've welded a truck frame at 10,000 feet in a freezing cold wind and flux core is what works. It just isn't pretty.

If you are serious, you'll want a good welder from Miller or Lincoln (Or Hobart which is Miller's second line). Spare parts for decades, consumables everywhere etc. There are tons of other welders out there, but Miller (my choice) or Lincoln are what you want. Miller is just slightly better made (metal drive gears) and darn near bullet proof. But it's a Ford vs Chevy thing. I would not buy a welder at Home Depot. These are cheaper units built to a price point and not what you want. I have a slight preference for transformer based welders vs a rectifier based welder, but they both work. Miller's "auto-set" feature actually works so there's that. I have a 15 year old Miller 210 which has been great and perfect (It's modern equivalent is the 252). If the 210 ever dies I'll get a 252.

Remember, you need way more than just the welder. You need a welding helmet, and you'll want an autodarkening one. They are much easier to use. I've got a great Miller auto-dark one for home use, but for off road trips I take the much cheaper Harbor Freight auto-dark helmet which works pretty well. These cost about $60 and I replace every 2 years, but they do work. You also need metal working tools. You'll want 3 angle grinders minimum. One with a cutting disc, one with a grinding disc, and one with a cup brush. You'll probably also want a chop saw with a cutting disc, and when that makes you crazy you'll want a plasma cutter (trust me, you will want one immediately). You also need protective gear like leathers. When welding you don't want any exposed skin, because the UV light will give you a really bad sunburn.

Anyway, it's a slippery slope. To do it well, you need a lot of expensive gear. I'd look on Craigslist. Find a good welder with a gas bottle and a cart. The cart is important. Welder and gas cylinder are heavy and awkward, so a cart is key. The old school rule was you bought a welder and the first project was to build your first cart. Still not a bad plan.

But before you spend any money, take a intro welding course at the local community college. They will have you welding with a buzz box stick welder the first night, and you'll learn instantly why that is such a pain. Good luck.

Edit: One other thing. Look carefully at duty cycle. Many cheaper welders have a 20-30% duty cycle, so you have to stop and let them cool off every few minutes. Look for a duty cycle in the 60% range or better.


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## johnkelsall (May 30, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> winemakers are a crafty and versatile group so i wanted to seek some advice.
> 
> i want to purchase a welding kit for home shop use, repairs, and different little fabrication projects but my knowledge is extremely limited. When i started to look into this for a “homeowner friendly” type of kit i realized there’s a lot i don’t know.
> 
> ...


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## johnkelsall (May 30, 2021)

Oxy and stick welding would show no benefit for stainless welding around the smaller and semi-commercial wineries. Tig and mig are the proven solid welding types for food-grade metalwork. Stick welding is best for your structural and support frameworks like catwalks and stairs. imo.


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## mainshipfred (May 30, 2021)

I have torches, a mig and arc welder. I just can't get the hang of the mig although I don't spend much time trying to learn.


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## balatonwine (May 30, 2021)

toadie said:


> Not a welder but brazing (with a torch) is generally not as useful as welding.



Well, actually, like most things... rather it depends.

For example, many high quality steel custom bikes are brazed not welded. The tubes are brazed to the cast headset or bottom bracket components. Welding melts both metals, but brazing preserves the shape of the components. Which may be intricate shaped and designed. Without loss of strength.

Silver soldering, such as with jewelry, or making model steam engines and boilers use brazing, not welding.

And so on.

So, again. It depends. Depends on the topic, desired results, etc. etc. etc. So in some cases, brazing may be in fact more desirable than welding. Hope this helps.


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## Ajmassa (May 30, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> From my vantage point, it is weird that you post this today!
> 
> I have always been a welder "dilletante." I have used oxy/acetylene in the past. I broke down a few years ago and bought a MIG unit. This is nice, in that it is sort of a "hot glue gun for metal" within certain parameter restrictions. However, just today, I was thinking that I should break down and buy a TIG welder (in my retirement  )
> 
> AFAIK, you cannot do much with stainless other than with TIG. So, if SS is a requirement, go TIG.



I knew this forum would have some useful info for me!
And yeah definitely had a few SS projects in mind. I tend to be a pack rat- and have done a ton of work in hospitals over the years. Tons of SS shelving, carts, cabinetry, etc that ive accumulated over the years always telling myself - “one day i’ll gear up to work on these”.

i also want to install SS sidesplashes around my wine sink. but the sink has rounded edges so would require a little craftiness i’m sure the more i think about it the more uses i would think if. So far this thread has offered a ton of useful info which is greatly appreciated.


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## Ajmassa (May 30, 2021)

information overload! 





i may be stepping into a new obsession here. 
And tbh this part of it right now —-the narrowing down what my first few purchases should be to gear up is just part of the fun.

My home shop i’ve got a little mechanic corner, electrical, plumbing (just using the little handheld propane torch for sweating pipes), but obviously it’s mostly woodworking. And aside from the grinders, hacksaws and carborundum saw, my metal work tools fit in one drawer. oh and a decent bench grinder on a stand.

I never got into it before because it seemed like a deep knowledge was necessary. i was in my early 20’s on a job building a pedestrian bridge/treehouse thing >Morris Arboretum Promo  < and I asked the welder to attach some galvanized brackets to the framing for me so i could set my decking to this giant birds nest thing (seen in the video) and he just laughed at me. He then threw so much info at me so fast i walked away thinking - “thats just too damn complicated for me to worry about understanding right now”. Tho i did thoroughly enjoy the welding classes i took around that time.

My dad is getting up there in years and has been scaling down his home shop a lot. Taking his old craftsman belt/disc sander & stand off his hands, which i’m excited for. But there’s some old metal tools collecting dust too. torch and tanks etc. I’m gonna see what’s laying around and useful there first before making any purchasing decisions. Definitly planning to set myself up with a proper welding station & cart @CDrew. Just need to figure in what to get.

and @balatonwine i was solder repairing some silver jewelry just today actually. standing up hunched over working at my workbench while talking to the mrs. All of a sudden i felt a pinch in my lower back. I wasn’t even moving. pinched right in the spine. And i was on the ground in serious pain! assuming a pinched a nerve somehow. Took a few min to get back in my feet. 

Now i’m wearing my back brace like an old man, trying to bottle wine and wincing as i lift carboys!


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## NorCal (May 31, 2021)

I’ve had a Lincoln 110v mig, flux core unit for close to 20 years. I use the heck out of it. Just fixed a gate for a lady yesterday, where her horse kicked it. I’ve made motor mounts, arts and craft stuff, a definite tool in the garage.


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## Johnd (May 31, 2021)

@Ajmassa , don’t overthink it. I went through your current travel path 6 months ago, you know me, endless, needless research, but ended up with the 110V Lincoln 140 MP, purchased straight from Lincoln’s website. Wanted 240 V, which worked at home, but not at the property, works like a charm. Did lots of stick welding earlier in life, was pretty good at it, and liked it. One of my buddies said “just get the MIG, you’ll love it”, so ended up with the multi-process machine. I have stick welded once with it, but absolutely fell in love with MIG welding, it’s all I do now, unless there’s a special purpose to stick or TIG weld.

I’m assuming you know the basics. Stick welding uses rods with flux on the outside of the rods, the flux protects the hot metal as it solidifies. MiG welders have a wire feeder and push electricity and wire into the weld zone, along with inert gas to protect the metal while it’s hot. Flux core welding uses the wire feeding MiG setup, but without the shielding gas, as the wire used has flux in the core to protect the hot metal. TIG welding also uses an inert gas (the gas depends upon the metal you’re welding), the electrode is used to heat the parent metal(s) while you feed in your welding rod with the other hand, unless you get a spool gun, which feeds for you.

In all three processes, polarity is important to the desired results, particularly penetration of the weld. For me, MiG is too easy to pass up for everyday stuff, beautiful welds, no slag to chip or brush, super easy to learn. Like you, I also wanted capabilities to do stainless and aluminum in addition to steel. Haven’t needed that yet, but I got it.


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## Ajmassa (May 31, 2021)

Johnd said:


> @Ajmassa , don’t overthink it. I went through your current travel path 6 months ago, you know me, endless, needless research, but ended up with the 110V Lincoln 140 MP, purchased straight from Lincoln’s website. Wanted 240 V, which worked at home, but not at the property, works like a charm. Did lots of stick welding earlier in life, was pretty good at it, and liked it. One of my buddies said “just get the MIG, you’ll love it”, so ended up with the multi-process machine. I have stick welded once with it, but absolutely fell in love with MIG welding, it’s all I do now, unless there’s a special purpose to stick or TIG weld.
> 
> I’m assuming you know the basics. Stick welding uses rods with flux on the outside of the rods, the flux protects the hot metal as it solidifies. MiG welders have a wire feeder and push electricity and wire into the weld zone, along with inert gas to protect the metal while it’s hot. Flux core welding uses the wire feeding MiG setup, but without the shielding gas, as the wire used has flux in the core to protect the hot metal. TIG welding also uses an inert gas (the gas depends upon the metal you’re welding), the electrode is used to heat the parent metal(s) while you feed in your welding rod with the other hand, unless you get a spool gun, which feeds for you.
> 
> In all three processes, polarity is important to the desired results, particularly penetration of the weld. For me, MiG is too easy to pass up for everyday stuff, beautiful welds, no slag to chip or brush, super easy to learn. Like you, I also wanted capabilities to do stainless and aluminum in addition to steel. Haven’t needed that yet, but I got it.



thanks man. that’s actually a really helpful perspective. Especially that first sentence. Appreciate it.


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## Kantuckid (May 31, 2021)

I am a trained millwright by an 8,000 hour apprenticeship plus a former helo mechanic, cars & trucks too. For your SS project I'd never consider buying a welder-it's not logical for one or two small DIY projects. Take it to a pro! If you'd said you were a farmer who somehow didn't already know how to weld I'd have suggested training then buying a stick welder/MIG welder. Anyone who's thinking of buying a welder should first know how to weld then they'll know whats joined via which processes and also fabrication and/or mechanical knowledge matters in a very basic way for anything except the most basic repairs which are probably more logical, again, by hiring a pro. Actually MIG is by far and easily the easiest hands on welding to learn a basic bead. Stick welding is trickier but also not too tricky and after a bit you'll not be sticking the rod so much. position matters hugely and progresses from horizontal flat to vertical flat to overhead flat to pipes and tubes and takes many, many hours in a booth to learn a professional level of skill. A repair is far more than can you weld it-you need to understand how the part functions and other possible issues such as heat damage to adjacent parts, etc..
I'd have to disagree that a sort of nasty weld is OK for anything? Gas is not too difficult but skill required varies for the job at hand. Brazing is not restricted to brass and copper? It's far more versatile than that! 
I used to build wrecks as a sideline but as I've aged out I sold my MIG used for AB work and have tried to sell my oxy/actly tanks & gauges but not sold yet. I still farm & log some but can get along fine by having stuff done for me even though I have the skill set. On welds that ask for a VG weld I'd practice some before I made the weld as I've never been a daily welder even though I knew how. 
This thread reminds me of all those people who've been buying sawmills during covid yet don't even know basic wood knowledge such as tree species, drying lumber and much more. Start with the basics no matter if it's metal or wood!


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## Ajmassa (May 31, 2021)

Kantuckid said:


> I am a trained millwright by an 8,000 hour apprenticeship plus a former helo mechanic, cars & trucks too. For your SS project I'd never consider buying a welder-it's not logical for one or two small DIY projects. Take it to a pro! If you'd said you were a farmer who somehow didn't already know how to weld I'd have suggested training then buying a stick welder/MIG welder. Anyone who's thinking of buying a welder should first know how to weld then they'll know whats joined via which processes and also fabrication and/or mechanical knowledge matters in a very basic way for anything except the most basic repairs which are probably more logical, again, by hiring a pro. Actually MIG is by far and easily the easiest hands on welding to learn a basic bead. Stick welding is trickier but also not too tricky and after a bit you'll not be sticking the rod so much. position matters hugely and progresses from horizontal flat to vertical flat to overhead flat to pipes and tubes and takes many, many hours in a booth to learn a professional level of skill. A repair is far more than can you weld it-you need to understand how the part functions and other possible issues such as heat damage to adjacent parts, etc..
> I'd have to disagree that a sort of nasty weld is OK for anything? Gas is not too difficult but skill required varies for the job at hand. Brazing is not restricted to brass and copper? It's far more versatile than that!
> I used to build wrecks as a sideline but as I've aged out I sold my MIG used for AB work and have tried to sell my oxy/actly tanks & gauges but not sold yet. I still farm & log some but can get along fine by having stuff done for me even though I have the skill set. On welds that ask for a VG weld I'd practice some before I made the weld as I've never been a daily welder even though I knew how.
> This thread reminds me of all those people who've been buying sawmills during covid yet don't even know basic wood knowledge such as tree species, drying lumber and much more. Start with the basics no matter if it's metal or wood!


when i said sloppy welds i just meant dirty. a less than perfect looking weld but still structurally sound. with some splatter/slag i guess, or spots where the rod stuck. i’m just basing that off my stick welding classes from my apprenticeship. i do remember if i went too slow the metal would deform and have a belly. idk. all those little growing pains that get better in time. I’m usually going to practice whatever it is i’m doing before working on the finished piece. from if a blade will chip the wood, or if a certain grit sandpaper will scuff- anything really. that’s just second nature for me before committing to the actual work piece. 
Stick welding is all i really knew. MIG is foreign to me but after a little research definitely seems doable. I gotta assume it’s the most used general purpose welding tool for a good reason. Thanks for the advice.


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## jswordy (Jun 1, 2021)

Been using a Hobart Ironman 210 MIG, I dunno, for almost 20 years I guess on the farm. Works good. I weld hot rod projects and fix farm equipment, build smokers, etc. It'll do thin sheet metal up to 1/2" thick steel. Optional spool guns for aluminum and SS available


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## Ajmassa (Aug 1, 2021)

No welder just yet. But did start the crusher/destemmer cart project.
Last year was the 1st time I used the stand & shoot. And I hated it. Super wobbly and brutal to set up/breakdown myself. Told myself I would rig up something proper.

I had this SS hospital medicine cart thing. I liked that it’s heavy duty yet not overly bulky.

I got a good chunk of work done and hopefully the next time I jump on it it I can finish up.
There’s probably better ways to go about this, but this is what I envisioned and just went with it.






Yeah I’m digging it already. Definitely feels strong enough. And taking up minimal footprint. Would love to find time to give the C/D a proper makeover as well. It’s crying for it. Envisioning an EVH paintjob


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## CDrew (Aug 1, 2021)

HaHa. All that uni-strut. But you should still get a welder because it's just cool. And you could fabricate a kick-A$$ cart for your crusher/destemmer and chute. Go take a class. Really. SIgn up and go and learn from a pro. There is also good instruction on Jody's tips and tricks. This guy is a great teacher and welder. Very good You Tube videos. He walks you through all the reasons, the steps, and the welding itself.

You have a long road if stainless is your goal. But you can do a lot with just mild steel and a welder.

It's almost fall, isn't it? Looks like you are getting ready. So good luck!


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## Ajmassa (Aug 1, 2021)

CDrew said:


> HaHa. All that uni-strut. But you should still get a welder because it's just cool. And you could fabricate a kick-A$$ cart for your crusher/destemmer and chute. Go take a class. Really. SIgn up and go and learn from a pro. There is also good instruction on Jody's tips and tricks. This guy is a great teacher and welder. Very good You Tube videos. He walks you through all the reasons, the steps, and the welding itself.
> 
> You have a long road if stainless is your goal. But you can do a lot with just mild steel and a welder.
> 
> It's almost fall, isn't it? Looks like you are getting ready. So good luck!


One day man. It was hard enough just to find time for this. And tbh I didn’t even have it. My goal was to clean the garage. Ended up jumping into this instead. Lol. 
As far as prep goes- you are looking at the extent of it. Been a little chaotic lately and haven’t put much thought into this fall yet with a lot goin on in my life at the moment. But I’m optimistic everything works out in the end and will be able to have a successful wine season.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 1, 2021)

Sometimes, don't you wish you were one of them Swenson kids? They probably know how to weld...


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## Jim Welch (Aug 1, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> winemakers are a crafty and versatile group so i wanted to seek some advice.
> 
> i want to purchase a welding kit for home shop use, repairs, and different little fabrication projects but my knowledge is extremely limited. When i started to look into this for a “homeowner friendly” type of kit i realized there’s a lot i don’t know.
> 
> ...



Lots of good points brought up, I was the welder in the maintenance shop at a port for over 20 years welding, doing repairs and fabrication of custom equipment attachments. Stick and MIG welding and dabbling in TIG although, since I know that just because I can run a TIG bead does not make me a TIG welder, I do not call myself a TIG welder.
Welding is the process where two or more pieces of metal are joined by the melting and mixing of the base metal usually with the addition of a filler metal. In welder ng there is actual fusion of the pieces being joined. 
Soldering and brazing while similar to each other differ from welding in that there is no material fusion. Two or more pieces are heated to a particular heat range and another metal is melted over and around the joint(s) forming a mechanical connection.
One can indeed make nice welds in stainless using the MIG process provided one uses the correct base stainless metal, the correct filler metal, and very important the correct inert gas.
I personally have made many many welds in stainless over the years using a Tri-mix gas, 90%helium 7.5%argon and 2.5% CO2. It is not a cheap gas mix but saves A LOT of clean up work and yields a very nice and strong weld.
I have not and would not attempt a “sanitary” weld with the MIG process, that is the TIG process’ forte. But unless you want to make food grade equipment the MIG process can make fine welds in stainless steels. I have joined 304, 308, 316 as well as the L series of these stainless alloys using the aforementioned tri mix gas. 
If you really want to get a welder, and I’m not trying to disabuse you of that idea because it is nice to have one, I would “cry once” and get a good welder.
Personally I’m a Miller man when it comes to welders, I’ve never ever been disappointed with any Miller equipment. Lincoln makes good welders too, they are Millers main competition. 
I’d recommend you look at the Miller-Matic line. I have an old 175 and I’ve done some large jobs with it. It can be wired for 120v or 240v, it has been superceded by newer models, the 211 looks pretty nice and roughly comparable!
As has been mentioned, you will need a helmet, don’t go cheap on a helmet! Even if you go cheap on a welder get a high quality auto darkening one, they’re amazing. Also very important are good welding clothes, if your getting pin prick burns while trying to learn to weld it will be more difficult and remember a welder operator should be as comfortable as the process and position allow. You want to focus on the weld as much as possible. I wear FR clothing when I weld and when I carbon arc gouge its full leather over that but I don’t think you’ll need leather. 
Now all this stuff I’ve recommended is going to run you probably $2k, plus or minus, probably plus. I see you are not far from me so I’d tell you to go to Keen gas and see what they have, they often have good used equipment that you can get for a decent price though I’m not sure how the various Covid related supply issues have affected that.
If you do decide to buy from Keen, come to Delaware, you’ll save on the sales tax.
Again, I can’t say enough good things about Miller welders.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 2, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Sometimes, don't you wish you were one of them Swenson kids? They probably know how to weld...


lol. Well get this - over the summer I did a some work at our old alma mater installing some ceilings- and while there I learned they’ve actually added welding to their curriculum. Got themselves a nice legit shop too. Was pretty cool to hear that.

And for the record I *was* taught to weld back during my apprentiship- just like those Swenson kids! (I mentioned in OP) Philly JAC unfortunately cut out the welding shortly after I finished.

But knowing _how_ to weld & torch cut is very different than understanding all the nuances involved enough to make a confident investment and not be a reckless uninformed purchase. For the meantime grinders, drill bits, & nuts & bolts will serve me well.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 2, 2021)

Jim Welch said:


> Lots of good points brought up, I was the welder in the maintenance shop at a port for over 20 years welding, doing repairs and fabrication of custom equipment attachments. Stick and MIG welding and dabbling in TIG although, since I know that just because I can run a TIG bead does not make me a TIG welder, I do not call myself a TIG welder.
> Welding is the process where two or more pieces of metal are joined by the melting and mixing of the base metal usually with the addition of a filler metal. In welder ng there is actual fusion of the pieces being joined.
> Soldering and brazing while similar to each other differ from welding in that there is no material fusion. Two or more pieces are heated to a particular heat range and another metal is melted over and around the joint(s) forming a mechanical connection.
> One can indeed make nice welds in stainless using the MIG process provided one uses the correct base stainless metal, the correct filler metal, and very important the correct inert gas.
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply. Sending you a PM.


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## Jim Welch (Aug 2, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. Sending you a PM.


Ok, I’m happy to help.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 16, 2021)

Made some more progress on the C/D mobile unit. Basically finished. Just need to permanently mount the uni-strut frame into place, add a spray plate, and then get that SS buffed & shining. I was worried those cuts would make it flimsy but still more than strong enough. And the 1/16” edging trim I used around the radius cuts worked out better than anticipated. 

But now comes the real headache: stripping down & cleaning up this 
dinosaur.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 16, 2021)

This C/D is over 30 yrs old with multiple layers of paint that is all chipping off at varying degrees all over the place. And if you’re not familiar with C/D’s like this one— there are ALOT of nooks & crannies.

Not sure how I’ll go about it yet. Power washer, orbital sander w/ heavy grit disks, a wire brush attachment on a grinder/drill (did some test spots with this), or maybe that stacked sandpaper buffer thing for grinders. Or all of the above. I probably won’t strip 100%. Just the compromised areas- which is majority. I wanna get rubber rollers if they’ll fit too.
Some insight is welcomed here. I’m shooting from the hip. If time becomes an issue I’ll do it in 2 phases 
1. Inside hopper and thru interior (anywhere grapes come in contact)
Everything else on the outside

oh also- Anyone know the make of this C/D? All I have is that “M” insignia. Nothing online. I believe it was Italian.
@JohnT you happen to remember ?


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## mainshipfred (Aug 16, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Made some more progress on the C/D mobile unit. Basically finished. Just need to permanently mount the uni-strut frame into place, add a spray plate, and then get that SS buffed & shining. I was worried those cuts would make it flimsy but still more than strong enough. And the 1/16” edging trim I used around the radius cuts worked out better than anticipated.
> 
> But now comes the real headache: stripping down & cleaning up this
> dinosaur. View attachment 77565
> ...



Looks really nice AJ.


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## CDrew (Aug 16, 2021)

I would strip it down to the greatest extent possible and take it to a powder coater. They will bead blast to prep which will nicely remove all that rust. Then you can get it powdercoated any color you want. It will look brand new and last for years that way.

And nice job on the improvised stand.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 16, 2021)

CDrew said:


> I would strip it down to the greatest extent possible and take it to a powder coater. They will bead blast to prep is which will nicely remove all that rust. Then you can get to powdercoated any color you want. It will look brand new and last for years that way.
> 
> And nice job on the improvised stand.


Reaching out for quotes.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 16, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> oh also- Anyone know the make of this C/D? All I have is that “M” insignia. Nothing online. I believe it was Italian.
> @JohnT you happen to remember ?View attachment 77568



Looks like it’s a Mecnosud:








Diraspatrice con pompa usata quintali 20: attrezzature di lavoro in vendita a Mirabella Eclano (Avellino)


pigiatrice con pompa attacco diametro 60 con rulli registrabili, apribile centralmente, marca mecnosud modello dep motore monofase hp2 struttura verni...




keej.it


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## stickman (Aug 17, 2021)

I agree with the above Mecnosud, but I couldn't find any detailed information. It looks a lot like the Enoitalia model Eno15; I'm not sure, but Enoitalia may have acquired the business.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 17, 2021)

Sandblast & powdercoating not worth it. Got a couple numbers back. For the cost of $800-$1,000 I’d be better off just getting a new one. 

Taking this apart is a project. And my fear is breaking my stones to do all that then not getting it reassembled properly. But like anything else, I’ll just have to dive in and make it work.

I’ll replace all hardware, rollers, & belt. I’m not concerned with food safe paint. 
Sucker is cryin. Screaming. I did thislast minute work last year with my press too. When @Johnd once told me “procrastinators- this is your hobby” I’m not sure this is what he meant!


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## mainshipfred (Aug 17, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Sandblast & powdercoating not worth it. Got a couple numbers back. For the cost of $800-$1,000 I’d be better off just getting a new one.
> 
> Taking this apart is a project. And my fear is breaking my stones to do all that then not getting it reassembled properly. But like anything else, I’ll just have to dive in and make it work.
> 
> ...



I know you're more than capably of taking it apart and reassembling it but we are getting close to crush. My only fear would be the time it takes, especially the prep to paint. My recommendation would be to wait until after crush.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 17, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I know you're more than capably of taking it apart and reassembling it but we are getting close to crush. My only fear would be the time it takes, especially the prep to paint. My recommendation would be to wait until after crush.


Yeah that’s probably the safest thing and makes sense—-too much sense for my impulsive brain. I’m already knee deep in disassembly! Lol No turning back. Swinging by Depot after work for some grinder & multi-tool abrasive attachments. 

doing 2 batches again this season. The earlier D Red batch won’t need the C/D. Will be a family event w/ all the kids for an old school grape stomping party!
But not at my house so I’ll bring my manual crusher along just in case. (W/ my C/D being so old I figured to keep the manual around as a backup). And I’ll use buckets to transport back to the MassaVino Winery to ferment.

And my 2nd batch last year wasn’t in till late October. So potentially could be 2 months til crush day.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 17, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Yeah that’s probably the safest thing and makes sense—-too much sense for my impulsive brain. I’m already knee deep in disassembly! Lol No turning back. Swinging by Depot after work for some grinder & multi-tool abrasive attachments.
> 
> doing 2 batches again this season. The earlier D Red batch won’t need the C/D. Will be a family event w/ all the kids for an old school grape stomping party!
> But not at my house so I’ll bring my manual crusher along just in case. (W/ my C/D being so old I figured to keep the manual around as a backup). And I’ll use buckets to transport back to the MassaVino Winery to ferment.
> ...



Good luck, you're a braver man than me. At least you have plan B.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 17, 2021)

Ended up loading up on a whole arsenal of options for this task. Don’t care if I never use the majority. It’s just a bunch of junk from everyone’s favorite high end boutique harbor freight. 
Odds are I’ll end up using none and fall back to good ol elbow grease & steel wool.

Also, I was today years old when I learned that ‘plastic welding kits’ are a real thing.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 18, 2021)

stickman said:


> I agree with the above Mecnosud, but I couldn't find any detailed information. It looks a lot like the Enoitalia model Eno15; I'm not sure, but Enoitalia may have acquired the business.


thanks. That manual is helpful. I’ve been referencing another chart. for Grifo. It’s from my local spot in Jersey. Last 20 pages of the catalog are essentially parts lists for different winemaking items. And Grifo is basically the same thing as the Enoitalia aside from roller material.
Optimistic this little project will get me a few more years. Tho my ‘sometimes-partner’ (dad) wants to just get new one. And we will soon. What he doesn’t realize is that I actually enjoy all this stuff!


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## Ajmassa (Aug 19, 2021)

Trying figure out how the hell to get this thing to 400° for ~20 min. if I can then I wanna get one of those home powdercoat setups. 
Got a 4’ SS cabinet sitting unused. I could get an old electric oven, rip out the heating elements & controls to gypsy rig into the cabinet maybe. Or something else entirely. Just spitballing. To be realistic needs to be quick, easy & cheap. 

Btw the stripping sucks. I did a little test section to figure my approach. It is gonna be a long loud dirty job. All the different grinder attachments will need to be utilized.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 19, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Trying figure out how the hell to get this thing to 400° for ~20 min. if I can then I wanna get one of those home powdercoat setups.
> Got a 4’ SS cabinet sitting unused. I could get an old electric oven, rip out the heating elements & controls to gypsy rig into the cabinet maybe. Or something else entirely. Just spitballing. To be realistic needs to be quick, easy & cheap.
> 
> Btw the stripping sucks. I did a little test section to figure my approach. It is gonna be a long loud dirty job. All the different grinder attachments will need to be utilized.View attachment 77718
> View attachment 77720



I feel for you AJ, when I saw the condition of the existing finish I knew you had your hands full. Again you are a better man than I for attempting it.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 19, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I feel for you AJ, when I saw the condition of the existing finish I knew you had your hands full. Again you are a better man than I for attempting it.


Next week I start a job that requires night work for a couple months. 4pm-11pm maybe. finding free time during the day will be MUCH easier then


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## stickman (Aug 19, 2021)

Powder coat would be great if you can overcome the oven issue. The two part bathtub paint is another option that gives a good durable finish once cured.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 19, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Next week I start a job that requires night work for a couple months. 4pm-11pm maybe. finding free time during the day will be MUCH easier then



No it won't. You'll be sleeping.


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## CDrew (Aug 19, 2021)

Man, all that work and you'll still end up with paint and potential rust.

Maybe just work a few extra hours and buy a stainless crusher/destemmer.

That's my plan anyway.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 19, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Again you are a better man than I for attempting it.


Better than me too. But I love watching other guys take on projects like this - it’s gonna look great!


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## David Violante (Aug 20, 2021)

AJ ~ Super job on this! I love watching the progress and the figuring it all out. You're going to be very satisfied and feel quite accomplished when it's done, and it's going to look fantastic too!


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## Ajmassa (Aug 20, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> No it won't. You'll be sleeping.


I know man. I’ll have to train myself to keep ideal hours. The last thing I want is to fall into a nocturnal body clock. That would be terrible!




CDrew said:


> Man, all that work and you'll still end up with paint and potential rust.
> 
> Maybe just work a few extra hours and buy a stainless crusher/destemmer.
> 
> That's my plan anyway.


I agree. That’s why I’m dead set on powdercoat at this point. As I plugged away the last few days I’ve come to that realization. But I also can’t justify dropping a $1,000 for a paint job. But I absolutely _can_ get behind investing in having my _own _powdercoat setup.
Eastwood Powder Gun!

and I know I’ll find a way to bake it. Only need it once. Later on I’ll get a toaster oven or something and utilizing PC for small hardware type things.
The widest point at the hopper is 3’. That’s workable. I’ll get the new one after the inevitable divorce! 


Cynewulf said:


> Better than me too. But I love watching other guys take on projects like this - it’s gonna look great!


Let’s hope so. This damn hobby has always got me doing some sort of little project or rigging tho this ones definitely more involved than typical. And it doesn’t always work out either lol! The vinyl gutter “must shoot” to send crushed grapes from the yard to the basement was quite the shitshow!



David Violante said:


> AJ ~ Super job on this! I love watching the progress and the figuring it all out. You're going to be very satisfied and feel quite accomplished when it's done, and it's going to look fantastic too!


Same here. Especially when someone posts the progression of a wineroom/cellar build.
Looking forward to figuring out this powdercoat thing- which i didn’t know much about before this week. 


stickman said:


> Powder coat would be great if you can overcome the oven issue. The two part bathtub paint is another option that gives a good durable finish once cured.


I shall overcome.


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## stickman (Aug 20, 2021)

@Ajmassa maybe your wife will let you take the door off of her oven and add a temporary sheet metal box to extend the length enough to handle the largest piece. Just set for convection bake and everything will be good. I suppose you should first prepare a tent in the backyard for sleeping.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 20, 2021)

stickman said:


> @Ajmassa maybe your wife will let you take the door off of her oven and add a temporary sheet metal box to extend the length enough to handle the largest piece. Just set for convection bake and everything will be good. I suppose you should first prepare a tent in the backyard for sleeping.


Everything I’ve read online says to absolutely not use your kitchen oven. For multitude of reasons. I’m not even flirting with that idea. The LAST thing I need is for something to go wrong. I’d be in the backyard no doubt. But pushing daisies rather than a tent.


the 2020 cold box was a success. Now let’s see if 2021’s hot box can match it. 

It feels like that scene from Apollo 13. The engineers in Houston attempting to find a solution to relay to the astronauts. They’re handed a box of random material and the boss says “We gotta make this fit into the hole made for this, using nothing but that. You have 4 hours. Godspeed”


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## ruhbarb76 (Aug 20, 2021)

stickman said:


> @Ajmassa maybe your wife will let you take the door off of her oven and add a temporary sheet metal box to extend the length enough to handle the largest piece. Just set for convection bake and everything will be good. I suppose you should first prepare a tent in the backyard for sleeping.


I sense that you maybe joking about borrowing the wife's oven. But there is a creative gent in my area who did build an extension on an existing oven for powder coating and it worked! I didn't see it work -but the build was clever. Unfortunately, I can't cite specfic details about the build because I can't recall them. Sorry


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## CDrew (Aug 20, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> ILet’s hope so. This damn hobby has always got me doing some sort of little project or rigging tho this ones definitely more involved than typical. And it doesn’t always work out either lol! The vinyl gutter “must shoot” to send crushed grapes from the yard to the basement was quite the shitshow!
> I shall overcome.



I have to say the vinyl gutter episode was one of the best posts ever on this forum.

Carry on….


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## Ajmassa (Aug 20, 2021)

CDrew said:


> I have to say the vinyl gutter episode was one of the best posts ever on this forum.
> 
> Carry on….


I don’t recall the post- I just remember the L. Didn’t even come close to working lol. So they next year I crushed in the basement sparking the fruit fly pandemic and a whole other set of impromptu riggings. Took a few season to find the best approach to crushing at home but I think I’m there


ruhbarb76 said:


> I sense that you maybe joking about borrowing the wife's oven. But there is a creative gent in my area who did build an extension on an existing oven for powder coating and it worked! I didn't see it work -but the build was clever. Unfortunately, I can't cite specfic details about the build because I can't recall them. Sorry


apprciate the insight. This is a very likely outcome for me. I don’t think it would have to be too complex. Especially for a one time use. 
Im picturing the oven door open— which acts as a continuation of the bottom. Then creating a box with one side open and no bottom. Place atop the open oven door and that’s all she wrote. Should be able to get me there. Keeping eyes peeled for freebie electric ovens 

I would even make it out of cardboard. And wrap entire thing in high temp foil tape. Or duct sheet metal. Gotta get myself a damn welding setup!


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## balatonwine (Aug 21, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> That’s why I’m dead set on powdercoat at this point.



FWIIW: Like paint, not all powder coating formulations are certified and approved for food contact. So even if you get it professionally done, you may need to ask about their formulations, and your local laws and requirements for this application which may have weaker rules for things like crushers (I do not know), if you want assure to be food safe code compliant.

Also before DIY powder coating, suggest a perusal of:



http://powder-coater.com/safe-powder-coating-guidelines.pdf


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## JohnT (Aug 22, 2021)

Can't wait to see the finals pics.

A lot of great wines started with that c/d. 

Ahhh, memories!


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## hounddawg (Aug 22, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> honestly i don’t have many specific use cases in mind just yet except one project, but i know that’ll change once i jump in. I want to modify a stainless steel cart i’ve got, along with my SS crusher/destemmer shoot & stand and the crusher/destemmer itself to build a custom mobile setup to my needs.
> 
> requires some cutting and welding. did some more digging and check this one out.
> 
> ...


this is what you need, i built stores in malls for years, tons of stainless on store fronts, plasma for cutting and a tig and a spool wire of stainless, if you want looks the buff with jewelers rouge,, you can also do some things with a mig, i am not familiar, or you can sweat it with a oc torch silver sticks much stronger then soldiering, and i would not silver wash myself, if you do use a plasma cutter set air to 55 lbs,,, good luck, 
Dawg


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