# how to change PH and TA ?



## Rivenin (Aug 7, 2013)

So i've been reading a ton... and this is what i'm making sense of in my head... let me know if this is correct or needs some form of something else  .
And this is just a general guideline to understand TA and PH and how to correct. 


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High PH and High TA = Add Calcium carbonate 
High PH and Low TA = Add Tartaric acid 
Low PH and High TA = Add potassium carbonate

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So looking at just this scale i made, this in theory should be correct, right?

HIGH 
-----Add Calcium carbonate to lower acid (unless TA is low, then add tartaric acid)
3.1
3.1
3.3 
3.4
3.5
3.6
3.7
3.8
3.9
-----Add Potasssium Carbonte (or acid blend) To get higher on acid scale.
LOW 

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Does that all make sense? and is it somewhat correct? 

And as for TA, Low side being .55 and high being .75


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## beardy (Aug 7, 2013)

Subscribed to see what come of this! Acidity is about the most confusing part so far for me. I have a TA test kit and hopefully will get a pH meter soon.


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## Turock (Aug 8, 2013)

Well, I'll take a whack at this. I saw your post in the fruit winemaking section and I have to confess that we don't bother with TA on fruit or the native North American cool weather grapes. We work only with PH.

TA is not a measure of total acids, but the acid that's available to react with sodium hydroxide. It doesn't tell you how strong the acid is,and acids vary greatly in strength. Only when you have added sufficient sodium hydroxide to unhook all accessible hydrogens, is your TA measurement complete.

Since the proportions of free and bound hydrogens varies greatly according to varietal,ripeness,growing conditions, etc., so does the relationship between PH and TA.

PH and TA have no direct or predictable relationship. The best you can say is that higher TA is associated with lower PH and vice versa.

PH, however, is important because it has a powerful effect on the efficiency of sulfer dioxide and prevents oxidation and bacterial infection. And knowing your PH helps you know how much free SO2 you need to protect the wine. A lower PH wine needs less SO2 than a high PH wine.

Calcium carbonate is used pre-ferment to RAISE PH. Potassium carbonate is used post ferment to TWEAK the PH up. It should not be used pre-ferment or in large quantities because it can damage delicate flavors. We don't even own any potassium carbonate because we do all acid adjustment pre-ferment.

Many years ago we took TA readings until we got a PH meter. Then we found that adjusting the PH worked so well that we just didn't bother with TA any more. Some of the more complicated high brix Calif varieties of grapes need some TA consideration. But my opinion is that it's easier to work with and adjust PH only on fruit--- and grapes like the concord and Niagara which are the ones we basically work with. We found that getting our PH adjusted on fruit really had a big affect on flavor. Some fruits need a little lower PH because they have delicate flavors--like peach. A little more acid brightens up the flavor. Dark fruits like blackberry, we like a PH of 3.4 We don't like higher PH because they need more sulfite. A PH no higher than 3.4 is really ideal for the best preservation.

VERY generally, white wines usually have lower PH's of about 3.2 or 3.3 Reds, around 3.4 I know this is confusing to you. But experience and your own palette for acid tells you where you want your wine adjusted. Some wines taste like dishwater if you get the PH too high--like white grape or peach. Delicate flavors are better with a bit of acid. Then of course, it depends on if you like wines dry or semi-sweet. You want the acids balanced with the sugar you add. But if you like them bone dry, maybe you want less acid on it. So you see, one answer doesn't fit all. You have to fit all this to what you like drinking.


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## ibglowin (Aug 8, 2013)

There are many ways to make wine and all palettes are different that's for sure but if you pay no attention whatsoever to TA and just keep adding Tartaric Acid until your pH is down to where you want it you risk having so much acid the wine will taste like......

You have to pay attention to both IMHO. Once you have run the TA up to the max if your pH is still not there, again, IMHO your done. 

You will just have to add a higher amount of SO2 to protect the wine and the wine may not be a good candidate for a "long term ager" but at least it won't "pucker your mouth" when you drink it.

Again many ways to make wine but IMHO you must pay attention to both.


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## Turock (Aug 9, 2013)

As ibglowin said, once the TA is max and the PH isn't there, you're done. Well, this is very bad for fruit wines. You end up with too high a PH, and on some fruit wines its taste will be equal to dishwater.

We've been making wine for 24 years and only adjusting PH in almost all that time. I can tell you that if you just adjust the PH on fruit wines, you'll be very happy with the result.


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## salcoco (Aug 9, 2013)

Making wine in Kansas requires us to adjust Ph and TA probably more than other parts of the country. The rule for High Ph and High TA is add tartaric acid preferment until you achieve a Ph of 3.4. granted this puts the acid content high but it puts the must a the proper Ph for fermentation. once fermentation is complete and after about two racking , one in three days off the gross lees and once in three weeks and after proper sulfating, cold stabilize the wine. the tartaric acid will drop out of suspension. wine should be below 40deg for about a week. rack will wine is cold or acid will redissolve into wine. if taste is still acidic cold stabilize again. at last resort adjust using potassium carbonate again only if taste is offensive because at this point that is the best parameter.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 9, 2013)

Turock said:


> As ibglowin said, once the TA is max and the PH isn't there, you're done.



So, what is considered the max?


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## geek (Aug 9, 2013)

for fruit wines I see many people don't really pay attention to PH/TA at all.....ask Dave....


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## Turock (Aug 9, 2013)

Books tell you that the TA range is .6 to .9 So gosh, that's a lot of range. Who really cares where the TA is if the PH is out of line? For us, here in NE Ohio, our soil is very acidic and most fruit is on the acidic side except for a couple. If we ignored PH---we'd be making things you could clean silver with, but not very good for drinking!!!


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## geek (Aug 9, 2013)

Turock, based on your experience which is more acidic: strawberry, blackberry, raspberry or blueberry?


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## GeoS (Aug 9, 2013)

What can i do about a pH of 3.5 and the wine still tastes flat? The tartaric acid is about 0.67%.


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## robie (Aug 9, 2013)

GeoS said:


> What can i do about a pH of 3.5 and the wine still tastes flat? The tartaric acid is about 0.67%.


 

What variety of wine?
Kit wine?
How old is it?

Do you have any tartaric acid on hand?


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## GeoS (Aug 9, 2013)

Never mind. It helps to calibrate your pH meter!


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## Hokapsig (Aug 9, 2013)

let's say you have a Concord with a pH of 2.8 and still tasting flat? I haven't done a TA on it yet.


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## Rivenin (Aug 10, 2013)

In my humble beginner readings. Concord is a bit tart and needs to be lowered to come in properly... 2.8 in the beer world would be tart as all hell


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## Turock (Aug 10, 2013)

A concord of 2.8 tastes flat? Any concord with that PH must not be very ripe. You must have a high tolerance for acid!!! Our concord, with a brix of 15 in the field, is about 3.2 and we use calcium carbonate to bring it up to 3.4


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## Hokapsig (Aug 10, 2013)

these were freebie grapes harvested mid September last year from NY (before the birds swooped in). I'm not getting the big Concrod taste that I thought I would get, but I may have to adjust the sugar a bit.


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## Julie (Aug 10, 2013)

Hokapsig said:


> these were freebie grapes harvested mid September last year from NY (before the birds swooped in). I'm not getting the big Concrod taste that I thought I would get, but I may have to adjust the sugar a bit.



What did you backsweenten too?


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## GeoS (Aug 10, 2013)

Try using 16 cans of frozen welches concord grape juice! Hahahahahaaa...... Inside joke.


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