# 1 In 5 California Early Adopters of EVs Move Back To ICE - For Convenience Reasons......



## ibglowin

Rut Roh Raggy! You tired yet @geek ?









1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows


Roughly 20% of electric vehicle owners in California replaced their cars with gas ones, a recent study shows.




news.yahoo.com


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## Boatboy24

Not completely surprising. Buying an EV is a commitment to doing things a little differently. You need to perhaps plan a bit more, take advantage of short term free charging, etc. You can't just run to the nearest gas station and be 'full' in three minutes. But people will figure out how to work with that. I'm not currently in the market for a car, but will be in 3-4 years and am already looking toward an EV. Will that be the car we take on long family road trips? Maybe not. But for daily driving, or short overnights, perfect. And honestly, by then range will probably be significantly increased. In the NC Outer Banks, where we take at least one trip a year, I'm already seeing rental houses advertising EV chargers as amenities. The early(ish) adopters are working the kinks out now. It's the folks that want to look cool until they realize it might cost them a few minutes of charging or planning that are bailing. I know a few people that own Teslas, and they aren't going back any time soon. Quite the contrary - they are looking to convert their other cars to EVs.


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> Rut Roh Raggy! You tired yet @geek ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows
> 
> 
> Roughly 20% of electric vehicle owners in California replaced their cars with gas ones, a recent study shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



"Of those who switched, over 70% lacked access to Level 2 charging at home, and slightly fewer than that lacked Level 2 connections at their workplace."
Ford owners I assume....

Tesla has plenty of super chargers to supply demand. And every single EV owner I know here in CT (I admin a FB group of about 1k people) has a simple L2 charger at home. I have a NEMA 14-50 on 220v which gives me ~30miles/hour, plenty...!!!

If that story is true, which I do not think it is (FUD news), those owners must be dumb  

I'd never get tired on an EV, no reason why and watch the trend for people moving to EV....Tesla cannot even keep up with deliveries...!!

I have 2 friends who just went to take delivery of new Tesla Model 3 this Monday and they told me they had about 40 vehicles to be picked up by new owners that single day, in that single small location.....

Some folks may not like EVs, but that is the near future, hands down.

Did I say I LOVE my EV???


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## ibglowin

My thoughts are that yea they work great for a daily commute or on the east coast but out west its gonna be a much harder row to hoe since you can drive all day and still be in the same state in many instances.


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## geek

Boatboy24 said:


> I know a few people that own Teslas, and they aren't going back any time soon. Quite the contrary - they are looking to convert their other cars to EVs.



Exactly the trend in CT, a single family member started with the switch, and now I've seen families with 3 Tesla cars....I can charge my car at a super charger L3 in 30 minutes while I stop at a rest area in a long road trip, no issue at all whatsoever. 

I always say, once you go EV, you never look back...!! lol


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## geek

Like Jim said, it is about planning when doing long trips, I know folks who went across the country, no problem. Tesla super chargers are expanding like crazy and they're everywhere pretty much.


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## ibglowin

This is the only way they work out west for a road trip of any length. Well see if it comes to fruition. Glad you guys will be beta testers for the west coast!









Toyota's Solid-State Battery Prototype Is a Potential EV Game Changer


New technology brings electric cars closer to the convenience of their gas-powered counterparts.




www.motortrend.com


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## geek

nahhh, Toyota is really behind on EV, Tesla is currently manufacturing a car with over 400 miles of range, wait until they start producing cars with their new battery with 4680 cells (number may be off...). I wish Toyota was more in the lead.
Lucid coming out with the $$ car with over 500 miles. So time is going fast and you'll see by next year.

My car currently delivers over 300 miles of range, not shabby, and bought 3 years ago.


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## sour_grapes

Honestly, I don't think a 20% "recidivism rate" is all that high.


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## Kraffty

preferred by 8 out of 10 is not such a bad endorsement


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## geek

Mike take a look









Supercharger | Tesla


Supercharger keeps you charged when you’re away from home. With a reliable global network, you can go anywhere and conveniently fast charge. Simply plug in, charge and go.




www.tesla.com


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## ibglowin

Varis your missed the point of the article. 

80% charge in 10mins.........

This is critical to move EV from local "commuter car" to a car that works out here in the west.



geek said:


> nahhh, Toyota is really behind on EV, Tesla is currently manufacturing a car with over 400 miles of range, wait until they start producing cars with their new battery with 4680 cells (number may be off...). I wish Toyota was more in the lead.
> Lucid coming out with the $$ car with over 500 miles. So time is going fast and you'll see by next year.
> 
> My car currently delivers over 300 miles of range, not shabby, and bought 3 years ago.


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## JBP

Another vote for EV - not going back!


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> Varis your missed the point of the article.
> 
> 80% charge in 10mins.........
> 
> This is critical to move EV from local "commuter car" to a car that works out here in the west.



I know, but my point is that those mentioned in the article (1 out of 5) may be dumb or don't know what they're doing, just my personal opinion though.
Cannot wait to see you driving the "ugly" CyberTruck....


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## ibglowin

How far can you go on a charge in Minnesota in the Winter?



JBP said:


> Another vote for EV - not going back!


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## ibglowin

I doubt they are dumb. I suspect they just got tired of always having to charge a vehicle everyday. I can't imagine coming home from work, your tired you come home and eat and go to bed and the next morning you get up and you realize you forgot to plug in the car and now your trip to (fill in the blank) is postponed or canceled because you have to charge your car up and it will take all day.......

The Cybertruck is the ugliest vehicle ever planned. 

You can't even BUY a Tesla in Texas! You will never be able to buy a Tesla in Texas as its not legal to sell a car direct to the public via the manufacturer. Guess who are the largest campaign contributors to politicians in Texas? 

Automobile dealers....... 

Oh and you can't buy a Tesla in New Mexico for the same exact reason!



geek said:


> I know, but my point is that those mentioned in the article (1 out of 5) may be dumb or don't know what they're doing, just my personal opinion though.
> Cannot wait to see you driving the "ugly" CyberTruck....


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## bstnh1

Once in operation, electric cars certainly reduce your carbon footprint, but making the lithium-ion batteries could emit 74% more CO2 than for conventional cars. 





__





StackPath






www.industryweek.com


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## jvbutter

All keep in mind, i know a few who bought an EV and figured they would charge it with all the places they see around town. They are supprised how few there are for where they are going, shopping and traveling to / from. I think EV is here to stay, but just like any immerging new trend, it takes time for mass adoption and infrastructure. Can you imagine when the first gas powered buggies came about, didnt have gas stations everywhere, but there were plenty of hitching posts.


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## winemaker81

Kraffty said:


> preferred by 8 out of 10 is not such a bad endorsement


If we were talking about the general population, I'd agree. However, the group in question is motivated enough to sink many thousands of dollars into the experiment. Current price on a low end Tesla is $40K USD, and a Chevy Bolt is not much cheaper. In this grouping, 20% is significant.

The total cost to install a L2 charging station supposedly ranges from $1,700 to $2,700, which is a significant investment. Not as much as the car, but when lumped on top of the car it's not a surprise that many don't install one. Given that a few years ago the _median _take-home in the USA was around $43 K, this is far too much for more than half the population.

Even with a personal L2 station, charging takes hours so as has been pointed out, it requires constant planning on the part of the owner. In contrast, the total time span to fill my Camry is 15 minutes including the round trip. This gives me a 400+ mile range and I can re-tank within 5 minutes anywhere along my trip. I plan my fill-ups, but if I mess up, the cost in time is often less than 10 minutes.

Let's look at the big picture -- to support more electric vehicles, we need to generate more electricity, which requires far more infrastructure to generate AND distribute. There is a large carbon footprint in creating batteries, and later we have to dispose of them. The grand view is not all that rosy. Besides, as more EV are created, the contention for public charging stations increases -- waiting 5 minutes in line to tank may be tedious, but having to wait an hour only to wait another hour while the car is charging?

Do we need to get away from oil/gasoline? I agree we do, but at this point mass adoption of EV is an experiment that may never achieve adoption except in specific areas, due to the systemic cost. Natural gas and hydrogen are contenders, and more likely to be successful.


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## Clivis

I had a tesla and loved it. Until it locked me out of the car. Digital Phone key didn't unlock the door. Plastic RFID key didn't unlock the door. I had to send a remote command to open the front boot for it to become responsive. That was enough for me to not trust the tech in it yet. The actual car itself I had no issues with.


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## ibglowin

Interesting read:









Analysis: Why Tesla stock is getting left in Ford's and GM's dust


Tesla had a stellar 2020: The electric car maker was added to the S&P 500 and the stock surged an electrifying 743%. But some investors have pulled the plug on the company lately.




www.cnn.com


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## Boatboy24

Will be interesting to see if Ford and GM can do in 2021 what Tesla did in 2020. In general, there seems to be money moving out of trendy, growth oriented (and perhaps more volatile investments so far in Q2.


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## bstnh1

Clivis said:


> I had a tesla and loved it. Until it locked me out of the car. Digital Phone key didn't unlock the door. Plastic RFID key didn't unlock the door. I had to send a remote command to open the front boot for it to become responsive. That was enough for me to not trust the tech in it yet. The actual car itself I had no issues with.


Wait until the fully automated vehicles come along. Absolutely nothing can go wrong...... go wrong. .......go wrong ........go wrong.......


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## winemaker81

Dave, I am completely operational, and all my circuits are functioning perfectly.


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## JBP

ibglowin said:


> How far can you go on a charge in Minnesota in the Winter?



I cannot tell a lie - I lose about 1/3 of my range during the bitter winter. Motivation to retire and move back to the southwest.


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> I doubt they are dumb. I suspect they just got tired of always having to charge a vehicle everyday. I can't imagine coming home from work, your tired you come home and eat and go to bed and the next morning you get up and you realize you forgot to plug in the car and now your trip to (fill in the blank) is postponed or canceled because you have to charge your car up and it will take all day.......
> 
> The Cybertruck is the ugliest vehicle ever planned.
> 
> You can't even BUY a Tesla in Texas! You will never be able to buy a Tesla in Texas as its not legal to sell a car direct to the public via the manufacturer. Guess who are the largest campaign contributors to politicians in Texas?
> 
> Automobile dealers.......
> 
> Oh and you can't buy a Tesla in New Mexico for the same exact reason!



Since I'm working remote I charge my vehicle every 10 days maybe and that is because I want to plug it in, not because the battery is almost zero.
Everyone has different needs, but for me I wouldn't see anything wrong plugging my car daily (if need be), takes merely 10 seconds when I get home, I could be tired as hell but getting that charge handle and plugging into my car adds nothing to make me not do it. To me, once you go EV you just become a bit more organized but those crying babies complaining that they didn't plug in because they're tired.....give me a break..!!  
These cars provide way over 300 miles of range, not many people NEED to drive to work that much in a daily basis, but crying babies will be there no matter what... LOL

In CT, the dealer mafia has also done everything in their power to lobby and prohibit any EV manufacturer to sell directly in CT, which is all bananas and BS, but we're fighting. Honestly, for me it is a hassle walking into a dealership to negotiate a price on a car, just did that recently since my son wants a car. Just like those who were opposing online sale of anything in the past (clothing, food and everything else) now realize how popular Amazon has become.

Yes, driving an EV may take a bit of adjustment at first (for some) but once you get it you never look back in most cases (I tell you from experience of the hundreds in our CT group who made the switch).

The CyberTruck is ugly, but it grows on you after a while


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## bstnh1

Interesting!

Investor Relations | Atlis Motor Vehicles


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## Boatboy24

bstnh1 said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Investor Relations | Atlis Motor Vehicles



8 minute charge time!? Whoa.


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## geek

My son has hinted at getting a Tesla Model 3 (he is merely 18 years old..!! and a part timer at Costco), he is the only one at home who has driven my car on very specific occasions and only a handful of times, and once he goes back to driving his sister Honda Civic, he always comes back telling me there's nothing better than driving an EV....and he is only 18!!

That few minutes charging time will be a reality, we have to just give it some time...


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## bstnh1

geek said:


> My son has hinted at getting a Tesla Model 3 (he is merely 18 years old..!! and a part timer at Costco), he is the only one at home who has driven my car on very specific occasions and only a handful of times, and once he goes back to driving his sister Honda Civic, he always comes back telling me there's nothing better than driving an EV....and he is only 18!!
> 
> That few minutes charging time will be a reality, we have to just give it some time...


I doubt it. We can't even charge a AAA battery in a few minutes!


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## bstnh1

Boatboy24 said:


> 8 minute charge time!? Whoa.


I don't think I'm ready to invest in Speedy Charge!


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## Dennis Griffith

Our power grid is not ready for mass adoption yet. The power grid needs to undergo an evolution. We need homes that generate power from solar and wind with the ability for the excess to support the grid. Parking lots need to be converted to solar farms (while remaining a parking lot). We have lots of square miles tied up in asphalt. The whole battery manufacture/recycle process needs to be improved. And don't forget about taxes. Roads are built and maintained by a gas tax. If you don't buy gas, where does the money for roads come from. It is a complex issue and I've not seen a comprehensive plan that may work. Saying we need to go green or buying an EV doesn't get us there in the long term. My brother, who works in the car business, believes hydrogen may be where we go in the future, And EV with a hydrogen fuel cell may be the best option down the road, depending on if they can get a fuel cell to run on available air (vs pure oxygen) reliably. There are steps being made in oxygen concentrator technology than may lead to improvements in fuel cell technologies. Time will tell.


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## David Clark

LOL, amazing what people will believe. If you look at the article in Yahoo it says "in a recent study", what study? You don't know because they don't tell you. For all you know it is a study by Shell Oil. I know several people with electric car and none of them have even considered going back. When they don't tell you who, what or where it's wise to not believe them. For 5 years we heard "People are saying" and we never once saw or heard these "People".


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## geek

David Clark said:


> LOL, amazing what people will believe. If you look at the article in Yahoo it says "in a recent study", what study? You don't know because they don't tell you. For all you know it is a study by Shell Oil. I know several people with electric car and none of them have even considered going back. When they don't tell you who, what or where it's wise to not believe them. For 5 years we heard "People are saying" and we never once saw or heard these "People".



Exactly.
This is why I mentioned that may part of the FUDs out there always going against Tesla (I do not own Tesla stock BTW).
Not a single person here in CT that I know from a group has ever seriously considered going back to gas cars, there could be an exception here and there but the vast majority not even blinked once they got to drive their EV.


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## winemaker81

I don't doubt that folks who drive EVs like them. However, the power infrastructure, ecological, and tax issues are not FUD -- they are very real.

The gas tax is critical to the maintenance of road systems in the USA. Because of the pandemic all 50 states are suffering shortfalls in revenue because people are not driving as much. With the rise of EVs, the tax situation is already changing, as states must compensate for the loss of gas tax revenue. According to a recent report, 28 states have special registration for hybrid and/or EVs, and 14 are charging additional registration fees. CT is not -- yet. It's something to keep in mind.

For those that do not realize it, in the USA the gasoline tax funds most or all of the road infrastructure building and maintenance in each state. The loss of this revenue is not trivial.

Power infrastructure? CA has a mandate to eliminate gasoline vehicles by 2035. The articles I've read stating that it's possible also state the power generation infrastructure MUST be beefed up a lot to meet the demand. This has to be tackled _now _to make it happen, and it's not going to be cheap.

I read one proposal is to convert parking lots into solar farms, e.g., build a rack over each parking lot to house solar panels. If I could drive to work, plug my car in while it sits all day, and have a full charge when I head for home? That sounds great. [I also like the idea of my car being in the shade so the interior doesn't compete with the surface of the sun for the "which is hottest today?" award!]


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## geek

Completely agree regarding infrastructure. Although it has been improving significantly lately with more chargers everywhere.
Many and many employers are now installing EV chargers for employees to charge even for free. At work they did this last year and a company across has the same. May be slowly but definitely improving. Even towns around here have free L2 chargers, solar farms I think would help tremendously as we have so much wind and sun to get energy from.


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## sour_grapes

David Clark said:


> LOL, amazing what people will believe. If you look at the article in Yahoo it says "in a recent study", what study? You don't know because they don't tell you.


Fair point.



> I know several people with electric car and none of them have even considered going back. When they don't tell you who, what or where it's wise to not believe them.



Wait, so you know "several people" that will not go back to ICE, and this makes you discard a study that says that 4 out of 5 are not going back?


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## geek

It may be worth pointing out also that many people are against change and innovation, many love their beef up trucks and turn their eyes the other way when they hear EV. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes but I really like when those against EVs have a test drive just for fun and their surprise is their face is to tell them “I told you so” 

The disruption to all the same and innovation seeing in Elon Musk has to be given credit, remember PayPal? That was just the initial disruption on how we do things, landing a rocket back to earth saving millions, the list goes on and time will tell but those reluctant to adapt to change may be left behind. Like a friend said, if you want to keep using that flip phone it’s fine, nothing wrong but you’re most likely losing benefits of today’s world’s technology.
Who doesn’t like using FaceTime to someone across the globe?


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## Dennis Griffith

Adding chargers is not what I was referring to in regards to beefing up the power grid. We are already in danger of rolling back outs during peak demand, and to add more demand is asking for problems. Adding more chargers does make it more convenient to owners of EVs, but it doesn't supply the power they need to operate. We have some of these upgraded parking lots here in Ohio. I like the idea and it does keep you out of the sun and rain. If you have a chance, check out the Cincinnati Zoo. They have 'solar power parking lots', which help power the zoo while cutting their operating costs.


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## globalnavigator

David Clark said:


> LOL, amazing what people will believe. If you look at the article in Yahoo it says "in a recent study", what study? You don't know because they don't tell you. For all you know it is a study by Shell Oil. I know several people with electric car and none of them have even considered going back. When they don't tell you who, what or where it's wise to not believe them. For 5 years we heard "People are saying" and we never once saw or heard these "People".











 Understanding discontinuance among Californiaâ€™s electric vehicle owners - Nature Energy


An often-overlooked aspect of vehicle electrification is how often and why owners give up on electric vehicles. Using surveys of California electric vehicle owners, Hardman and Tal find discontinuance rates of 20% and 18% among plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicle owners, and examine the...




www.nature.com


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## Boatboy24

globalnavigator said:


> Understanding discontinuance among Californiaâ€™s electric vehicle owners - Nature Energy
> 
> 
> An often-overlooked aspect of vehicle electrification is how often and why owners give up on electric vehicles. Using surveys of California electric vehicle owners, Hardman and Tal find discontinuance rates of 20% and 18% among plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicle owners, and examine the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com



We show that discontinuance is related to dissatisfaction with the convenience of charging, having other vehicles in the household that are less efficient, not having level 2 (240-volt) charging at home, having fewer household vehicles *and not being male*.


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## sour_grapes

Boatboy24 said:


> We show that discontinuance is related to ... *not being male*.



It is a woman's prerogative to change her mind!


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## sour_grapes

In case you are wondering about the phrasing:


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## bstnh1

geek said:


> Completely agree regarding infrastructure. Although it has been improving significantly lately with more chargers everywhere.
> Many and many employers are now installing EV chargers for employees to charge even for free. At work they did this last year and a company across has the same. May be slowly but definitely improving. Even towns around here have free L2 chargers, solar farms I think would help tremendously as we have so much wind and sun to get energy from.


Free charging for employees???? Will they pay taxes on those perks???


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## ibglowin

Here is your Cybertruck killer!








geek said:


> The CyberTruck is ugly, but it grows on you after a while


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## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Free charging for employees???? Will they pay taxes on those perks???



Some companies are basically promoting and supporting initiatives like this, maybe they don't mind pay for electricity as perhaps they look at it from a different perspective.


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> Here is your Cybertruck killer!




I can tell you love Ford  

That EV truck is nice and welcome to play as a competition, hope their technology will be as good as Tesla, we'll see but any competition is good for us consumers for sure.


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> Here is your Cybertruck killer!




Mike, do you know the preorder numbers for both of those pickup?


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## ibglowin

I do not. And I don't love Ford. I do own 3 Honda's though........



geek said:


> Mike, do you know the preorder numbers for both of those pickup?


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## ibglowin

The Ford F150 is the most popular selling vehicle in America for like the last 40 years Varis. I said "vehicle", not truck also.

America loves this vehicle evidently.



geek said:


> I can tell you love Ford


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## bstnh1

The ICE is not going anywhere soon despite what surveys may seem to show. I saw one "green" survey done by Consumer Reports that said that something like 67% of the people buying a new vehicle consider tailpipe emissions as a top consideration when choosing a vehicle. If that's true, why are gas and diesel powered vehicles outselling EVs by such a wide margin? Ford alone sells almost 1 million F150s. EVs account for only 2% of vehicle sales. If a majority of vehicle buyers are so concerned about tailpipe emissions, why are they buying fossil fuel powered vehicles?
The metals used to produce the 1000 lb batteries for EVs are mined in only a few countries using methods that are far from environmentally friendly. Mercedes Benz has estimated that manufacture of an EV emits more C02 than manufacture of a conventional vehicle. Battery production alone produces 74% more Carbon Dioxide than production of a conventional fossil fueled vehicle. Most electricity to charge EV batteries is produced in fossil fueled generating stations. The additional weight of an EV rolling down the road results in more airborne particulate matter emitted from the wear of tires and brake pads than what is normally produced from a conventional vehicle. The massive amount of land area required to produce a majority of our power needs from solar makes it impractical now and for the foreseeable future. There are higher priorities competing for the limited land resources we have. Wind power??? We would need more than a million windmills whirling away to supply our power. And then there's the matter of storing that power whether it's from solar or wind. Today's vehicles powered by internal combustion engines spew out less than 10% of the pollutants they did only a few years ago. Oh, but climate change ..climate change. One question on that climate change scare tactic - who warmed the planet after the last ice age?


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## bstnh1

geek said:


> It may be worth pointing out also that many people are against change and innovation, many love their beef up trucks and turn their eyes the other way when they hear EV. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes but I really like when those against EVs have a test drive just for fun and their surprise is their face is to tell them “I told you so”
> 
> The disruption to all the same and innovation seeing in Elon Musk has to be given credit, remember PayPal? That was just the initial disruption on how we do things, landing a rocket back to earth saving millions, the list goes on and time will tell but those reluctant to adapt to change may be left behind. Like a friend said, if you want to keep using that flip phone it’s fine, nothing wrong but you’re most likely losing benefits of today’s world’s technology.
> Who doesn’t like using FaceTime to someone across the globe?



Yes, we can all run out and buy an EV and wind up polluting the environment more than if we had bought an 8 cylinder muscle car.


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## bstnh1

geek said:


> Exactly.
> This is why I mentioned that may part of the FUDs out there always going against Tesla (I do not own Tesla stock BTW).
> Not a single person here in CT that I know from a group has ever seriously considered going back to gas cars, there could be an exception here and there but the vast majority not even blinked once they got to drive their EV.


Just because people like their EVs does not necessarily mean it's a wise choice. I can think of a lot of products that many people loved that are now in the dust bin of history.


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## bstnh1

Gone now, but I loved it. Big 8 cylinder gasoline F-250, 10 mpg.


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## Dennis Griffith

Boatboy24 said:


> 8 minute charge time!? Whoa.



For some reason laptop fires come to mind when manufacturers dabbled in faster charging times.


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## Dennis Griffith

bstnh1 said:


> Free charging for employees???? Will they pay taxes on those perks???



Let's not forget the lessons learned just last winter in Texas. They have been moving to renewable energy (~20% of the grid from what I read), and ran into issues with the winter storm that knocked out their power grid. Evidently solar panels don't work under snow and the wind turbines froze up. Which over loaded the remaining power generation infrastructure. As usual, humans rush forward without exercising adequate imagination to foresee possible consequences. We are quick to shut down legacy power plants, without ensuring an adequate, reliable, power supply. Ok, I'll get off the soap box, Anyway, I need to go out and bush hog more of those invasive shrubs that someone thought was a good idea to use to recover strip mined areas.


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## Dennis Griffith

bstnh1 said:


> The ICE is not going anywhere soon despite what surveys may seem to show. I saw one "green" survey done by Consumer Reports that said that something like 67% of the people buying a new vehicle consider tailpipe emissions as a top consideration when choosing a vehicle. If that's true, why are gas and diesel powered vehicles outselling EVs by such a wide margin? Ford alone sells almost 1 million F150s. EVs account for only 2% of vehicle sales. If a majority of vehicle buyers are so concerned about tailpipe emissions, why are they buying fossil fuel powered vehicles?
> The metals used to produce the 1000 lb batteries for EVs are mined in only a few countries using methods that are far from environmentally friendly. Mercedes Benz has estimated that manufacture of an EV emits more C02 than manufacture of a conventional vehicle. Battery production alone produces 74% more Carbon Dioxide than production of a conventional fossil fueled vehicle. Most electricity to charge EV batteries is produced in fossil fueled generating stations. The additional weight of an EV rolling down the road results in more airborne particulate matter emitted from the wear of tires and brake pads than what is normally produced from a conventional vehicle. The massive amount of land area required to produce a majority of our power needs from solar makes it impractical now and for the foreseeable future. There are higher priorities competing for the limited land resources we have. Wind power??? We would need more than a million windmills whirling away to supply our power. And then there's the matter of storing that power whether it's from solar or wind. Today's vehicles powered by internal combustion engines spew out less than 10% of the pollutants they did only a few years ago. Oh, but climate change ..climate change. One question on that climate change scare tactic - who warmed the planet after the last ice age?



I think it had something to do with animal flatulence


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> I do not. And I don't love Ford. I do own 3 Honda's though........



I love Honda as well, had a few for the last many years, rock solid cars mostly.

I know Ford pickups are probably the most sold pickup vehicle, no doubt about it and am really hoping they succeed in their EV venture. I just think every manufacturer has been late to get into the game, maybe because they don't think that is the future or whatever.

The ugly Tesla CyberTruck has over 1MM reservations, just to give you some context, the Ford...I will check but trailing far behind I think.


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## sour_grapes

Dennis Griffith said:


> Let's not forget the lessons learned just last winter in Texas. They have been moving to renewable energy (~20% of the grid from what I read), and ran into issues with the winter storm that knocked out their power grid. Evidently solar panels don't work under snow and the wind turbines froze up. Which over loaded the remaining power generation infrastructure. As usual, humans rush forward without exercising adequate imagination to foresee possible consequences. We are quick to shut down legacy power plants, without ensuring an adequate, reliable, power supply. Ok, I'll get off the soap box, Anyway, I need to go out and bush hog more of those invasive shrubs that someone thought was a good idea to use to recover strip mined areas.



Loss of wind turbines was not the main cause of the Texas fiasco: (No, frozen wind turbines aren’t the main culprit for Texas’ power outages )



> While Webber said all of Texas’ energy sources share blame for the power crisis, the natural gas industry is most notably producing significantly less power than normal.
> 
> “Gas is failing in the most spectacular fashion right now,” Webber said.
> 
> Dan Woodfin, a senior director at ERCOT, echoed that sentiment Tuesday.
> 
> “It appears that a lot of the generation that has gone offline today has been primarily due to issues on the natural gas system,” he said during a Tuesday call with reporters.



Also, note that any problems with turbines in TX is not inherent to turbines. There are windfarms all across the Great Plains in much colder conditions than what TX experienced.


----------



## ibglowin

Looks like over 100,000 in one month since they opened up reservations. IIRC they will only make 45,000 vehicles the first year of production.









Ford F-150 Lightning pre-orders hit 100K


Ford's reservations for the all-electric pickup, which will officially open this fall, only require a $100 refundable deposit.




www.foxbusiness.com








geek said:


> The ugly Tesla CyberTruck has over 1MM reservations, just to give you some context, the Ford...I will check but trailing far behind I think.


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> IIRC they will only make 45,000 vehicles the first year of production.



I think it may be due to battery production.
The CyberTruck had over 100k in the first 2 days if I remember....lol


----------



## geek

Just in time to add to this thread.....lol









Gas stations are running out of gas ahead of the holiday weekend


When tens of millions of Americans hit the road this holiday weekend, they're going to find the highest prices for gasoline in nearly seven years. But many will also find stations that don't have any gas at all.




www.cnn.com


----------



## Dennis Griffith

sour_grapes said:


> Loss of wind turbines was not the main cause of the Texas fiasco: (No, frozen wind turbines aren’t the main culprit for Texas’ power outages )
> 
> Also, note that any problems with turbines in TX is not inherent to turbines. There are windfarms all across the Great Plains in much colder conditions than what TX experienced.



Good article. That's what I get for not following up on the original news stories.


----------



## ibglowin

Out here in the Southwest I can guarantee you a plentiful supply of unleaded petrol but EV charging stations are few and far between, and ones that work and actually charge to the advertised level are even fewer are farer between.

Reviews from the only Tesla L3 charging station in Gallup, NM...........






geek said:


> Just in time to add to this thread.....lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gas stations are running out of gas ahead of the holiday weekend
> 
> 
> When tens of millions of Americans hit the road this holiday weekend, they're going to find the highest prices for gasoline in nearly seven years. But many will also find stations that don't have any gas at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


----------



## ibglowin

How many have they delivered?



geek said:


> The CyberTruck had over 100k in the first 2 days if I remember....lol


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> Out here in the Southwest I can guarantee you a plentiful supply of unleaded petrol but EV charging stations are few and far between, and ones that work and actually charge to the advertised level are even fewer are farer between.
> 
> Reviews from the only Tesla L3 charging station in Gallup, NM...........
> 
> View attachment 76046



Any more recent reviews? We all know the charging network is not perfect but it is 10k times better that a couple years ago, today you can go on a long road trip across the country without much issue if you plan your route.


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> How many have they delivered?



What is your point Mike? lol
If I also asked how many has Ford delivered then that would be an unfair question for sure. Just wait 'till Giga Texas starts production, then we can compare


----------



## ibglowin

My point is preorders mean nothing. They can be canceled at any moment with a full refund. LOL



geek said:


> What is your point Mike? lol
> If I also asked how many has Ford delivered then that would be an unfair question for sure. Just wait 'till Giga Texas starts production, then we can compare


----------



## ibglowin

Those reviews are the latest and from only 10 months ago and during pandemic when nobody was traveling no less.... You are wrong when you say you can travel cross country today without much issue. It would be an absolute nightmare out here in this part of the country. Especially if you were traveling with children. Maybe someday Varis but not today.



geek said:


> Any more recent reviews? We all know the charging network is not perfect but it is 10k times better that a couple years ago, today you can go on a long road trip across the country without much issue if you plan your route.


----------



## globalnavigator

Disclosure - I am not a big "car" guy because I just think that they are a huge waste of money that could be used for other things... like good wine! 

Face facts - any decent car can move you from point A to point B safely and comfortably. Most cars depreciate 40-60% in value in the first 5 years. Add to that the interest on the loan or lease, the insurance, and the maintenance, and a new 30k car can cost you 6k a year. (And don't get me wrong, I believe everyone should spend their hard earned money however they like.) 

I read though this entire thread so far and haven't seen any massive and proven benefits to one propulsion system versus the other mainly because there isn't one. Pros and cons with everything. Reminds me of people when they argue whether Android or Apple phones are better; they both work great, so who cares. 

Thanks for letting me add in my 2 cents. You'll have to excuse me now, I am heading out to try and find some CFL bulbs, you know, the ones the government previously subsidized me to buy because they were the future


----------



## ThunderFred

I think it's really cool that they are finally making cars that run on coal.


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> Those reviews are the latest and from only 10 months ago and during pandemic when nobody was traveling no less.... You are wrong when you say you can travel cross country today without much issue. It would be an absolute nightmare out here in this part of the country. Especially if you were traveling with children. Maybe someday Varis but not today.



I don't think I am wrong, I have friends who went from CT to CA, that is a cross-country trip in my opinion. Now, knowing the network is not perfect in some areas? I already said that.

Going back to the main focus of this thread, which is the article you originally posted, I am not tired and won't be any time soon my friend. EV is the best car I've ever owned hands down, technology is just amazing.


----------



## bstnh1

geek said:


> Just in time to add to this thread.....lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gas stations are running out of gas ahead of the holiday weekend
> 
> 
> When tens of millions of Americans hit the road this holiday weekend, they're going to find the highest prices for gasoline in nearly seven years. But many will also find stations that don't have any gas at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Almost as bad as your EV battery dying in the middle of Rt 50 on a 110 degree day.


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Almost as bad as your EV battery dying in the middle of Rt 50 on a 110 degree day.



Absolutely, there's no disputing that. One main factor though is that once you drive an EV you become more programmed with your schedule and driving needs you may have.


----------



## bstnh1

Volvo Concept Car (EV)


----------



## winemaker81

bstnh1 said:


> View attachment 76083


I wasn't aware that vehicles are still made with suicide doors. My dad was vehemently against them, as one of my cousins opened a door while the car was moving and the wind whipped it open, destroying the door and the panel it was attached to.

From what I've read, modern design (mostly) prevents the doors from opening easily, by a variety of means.


----------



## sour_grapes

winemaker81 said:


> I wasn't aware that vehicles are still made with suicide doors.



I think the operative word in bstnh's post was _concept. _I agree, it will never be built that way!


----------



## winemaker81

sour_grapes said:


> I think the operative word in bstnh's post was _concept. _I agree, it will never be built that way!


I understand that one is a concept car. The suicide doors surprised me so I searched on "suicide door" and found Rolls-Royce and Lincoln both have current models with them, and that a lot of the double-cab trucks have them. Apparently Honda & Toyota have used them in recent years on high-end models.


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Volvo Concept Car (EV)
> 
> View attachment 76083
> 
> 
> View attachment 76082




Nice car..!!


----------



## bstnh1

winemaker81 said:


> I understand that one is a concept car. The suicide doors surprised me so I searched on "suicide door" and found Rolls-Royce and Lincoln both have current models with them, and that a lot of the double-cab trucks have them. Apparently Honda & Toyota have used them in recent years on high-end models.


The rear doors on my Tacoma pickup (access cab) are suicide doors. But they cannot be opened unless the front door is opened first. You'd be hard pressed to accidentally open them while the truck was moving.


----------



## balatonwine

ibglowin said:


> You can't even BUY a Tesla in Texas!



Really? Interesting. If so, it would be ironic if Gigafactory Texas employees could not buy the car they make.


----------



## ibglowin

Texans Aren't Allowed to Buy Texas-Built Teslas


Under Texas law, Tesla isn't allowed to directly sell its Texas-made EVs in the lone star state without first having to go through a workaround system.




interestingengineering.com








balatonwine said:


> Really? Interesting. If so, it would be ironic if Gigafactory Texas employees could not buy the car they make.


----------



## geek

balatonwine said:


> Really? Interesting. If so, it would be ironic if Gigafactory Texas employees could not buy the car they make.



Just like in CT....the dealership mafia has $$ power and have local politicians in their hands. 

CT has been trying to pass legislation to allow direct car sales but it always fails, dealerships have big pockets I guess but direct sales make sense in every aspect, just like direct sales for anything else you buy online nowadays. And as we know, TX is a red state while CT is a blue state, so this is not a partisan issue but good elbow breaking and good pockets by the dealerships, go figure.


----------



## balatonwine

ibglowin said:


> Texans Aren't Allowed to Buy Texas-Built Teslas
> 
> 
> Under Texas law, Tesla isn't allowed to directly sell its Texas-made EVs in the lone star state without first having to go through a workaround system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interestingengineering.com



Interesting that Interesting Engineering also found it as interesting as I did....


----------



## Dennis Griffith

bstnh1 said:


> Volvo Concept Car (EV)
> 
> View attachment 76083
> 
> 
> View attachment 76082



Wonder how these do in side impact studies.


----------



## Sage

Just did a 13 hr, 800 mile trip towing a 14 ft enclosed trailer. Did the return trip in 2 part days because I couldn't leave early. Mostly 70 mph and a lot of mountains. WA state to MT.

I don't see electric in my future


----------



## winemaker81

Sage said:


> Just did a 13 hr, 800 mile trip towing a 14 ft enclosed trailer.


You made good time, especially with a trailer! For me visiting family is a 750 mile trip, usually takes at least 13 hours.


----------



## Sage

MT 80mph speed limit, but with a trailer kept it at 70! The 6.2 and a 26 gallon fuel tank required a couple of stops. Actually I only stopped twice for gas, food and..... The essential stuff


----------



## geek

Elon Musk confirms Tesla Cybertruck will have 4-wheel steering like Hummer EV's 'Crab mode'


Elon Musk has confirmed that the Tesla Cybertruck will be equipped 4-wheel directional steering resulting in a feature similar to...




electrek.co


----------



## geek

That’s how fast you can charge and that is a V2 supercharger, a V3 charger is even much higher, crazy high.


----------



## geek

This is charging at home with a simple NEMA 14-50. Roughly ~30 miles/hour. Plenty to charge overnight even if one has a long daily commute.


----------



## geek

This one is for @ibglowin


----------



## globalnavigator

winemaker81 said:


> I don't doubt that folks who drive EVs like them. However, the power infrastructure, ecological, and tax issues are not FUD -- they are very real.
> 
> The gas tax is critical to the maintenance of road systems in the USA. Because of the pandemic all 50 states are suffering shortfalls in revenue because people are not driving as much. With the rise of EVs, the tax situation is already changing, as states must compensate for the loss of gas tax revenue. According to a recent report, 28 states have special registration for hybrid and/or EVs, and 14 are charging additional registration fees. CT is not -- yet. It's something to keep in mind.
> 
> For those that do not realize it, in the USA the gasoline tax funds most or all of the road infrastructure building and maintenance in each state. The loss of this revenue is not trivial.
> 
> Power infrastructure? CA has a mandate to eliminate gasoline vehicles by 2035. The articles I've read stating that it's possible also state the power generation infrastructure MUST be beefed up a lot to meet the demand. This has to be tackled _now _to make it happen, and it's not going to be cheap.
> 
> I read one proposal is to convert parking lots into solar farms, e.g., build a rack over each parking lot to house solar panels. If I could drive to work, plug my car in while it sits all day, and have a full charge when I head for home? That sounds great. [I also like the idea of my car being in the shade so the interior doesn't compete with the surface of the sun for the "which is hottest today?" award!]


Coming here soon?








EV owners told to send in odometer readings for road tax, and they are not happy


Victoria electric vehicle owners have received a letter asking for a photo of their odometer for the state's EV road tax. And they are not happy.




thedriven.io


----------



## geek

Registration fees actually came down here in CT, cheaper than ICE vehicles.


----------



## winemaker81

geek said:


> Registration fees actually came down here in CT, cheaper than ICE vehicles.


If something means less revenue for the government, don't worry, a politician will "fix" the problem.


----------



## geek

winemaker81 said:


> If something means less revenue for the government, don't worry, a politician will "fix" the problem.



If you believe in politicians


----------



## geek

EV Registrations in CT - July 2021


This is a summary of the updated EV registration counts which were just released.




evclubct.com





Over 17k registrations in CT as of July 1.


----------



## winemaker81

geek said:


> If you believe in politicians


Unlike unicorns politicians exist, regardless of what you believe. Sorry to tell you this, as it's an unhappy truth.


----------



## Wayne Freeman

ibglowin said:


> Rut Roh Raggy! You tired yet @geek ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 in 5 electric vehicle owners in California switched back to gas because charging their cars is a hassle, research shows
> 
> 
> Roughly 20% of electric vehicle owners in California replaced their cars with gas ones, a recent study shows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com



In other words, "4 out of 5 electric vehicle owners won't switch back to gas".


----------



## Eric Huser

No one could afford to build or buy one of these vehicles if not for the piles of cash being thrown at them from governments. Meaning your tax money. Elon Musk pay zero in taxes. Total BS

Besides if California was so smart then it wouldn't be broke and then all of them wouldn't be moving here to once nice Colorado.


----------



## heatherd

VW has a nice EV sedan for around $40k: ID.4 (vw.com)


----------



## heatherd

geek said:


> Since I'm working remote I charge my vehicle every 10 days maybe and that is because I want to plug it in, not because the battery is almost zero.
> Everyone has different needs, but for me I wouldn't see anything wrong plugging my car daily (if need be), takes merely 10 seconds when I get home, I could be tired as hell but getting that charge handle and plugging into my car adds nothing to make me not do it. To me, once you go EV you just become a bit more organized but those crying babies complaining that they didn't plug in because they're tired.....give me a break..!!
> These cars provide way over 300 miles of range, not many people NEED to drive to work that much in a daily basis, but crying babies will be there no matter what... LOL
> 
> In CT, the dealer mafia has also done everything in their power to lobby and prohibit any EV manufacturer to sell directly in CT, which is all bananas and BS, but we're fighting. Honestly, for me it is a hassle walking into a dealership to negotiate a price on a car, just did that recently since my son wants a car. Just like those who were opposing online sale of anything in the past (clothing, food and everything else) now realize how popular Amazon has become.
> 
> Yes, driving an EV may take a bit of adjustment at first (for some) but once you get it you never look back in most cases (I tell you from experience of the hundreds in our CT group who made the switch).
> 
> The CyberTruck is ugly, but it grows on you after a while


Carvana has EVs and hybrids - so at least you don't 100% have to go to a dealer.


----------



## geek




----------



## bstnh1

"General Motors is telling owners of 2017-2019 Bolt EVs that were part of a recent recall not to park their vehicles inside or charge them unattended overnight after two of the vehicles caught fire."
Read the story on CNBC.


----------



## bstnh1

Here's an EV issue I have not seen addressed. There are millions of people living in cities who do not have a dedicated parking space and must park along the street in whatever space they can find. How would they charge an EV? Will we be required to put a charging station on every space like parking meters?


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Here's an EV issue I have not seen addressed. There are millions of people living in cities who do not have a dedicated parking space and must park along the street in whatever space they can find. How would they charge an EV? Will we be required to put a charging station on every space like parking meters?



As technology advances I presume the way we charge EVs today will evolve, EVs will be able to charge in much shorter times, few minutes so you can go to a charging station just like you go to a gas station. A few years ago the super chargers were L1, then L2 and now they have L3 which allows for insane charging speed capacity.


----------



## globalnavigator

geek said:


> As technology advances I presume the way we charge EVs today will evolve, EVs will be able to charge in much shorter times, few minutes so you can go to a charging station just like you go to a gas station. A few years ago the super chargers were L1, then L2 and now they have L3 which allows for insane charging speed capacity.


Unless there's a Flex Alert in California, for instance, when they don't want people to charge their electric vehicles between 4-9 pm - they will probably turn off those charging stations. And the faster they charge, the higher the current demand so even more important to shut them down. But, I know, in the future.....

_"Hello, if possible, the California ISO recommends consumers to delay using major appliances and charging electric vehicles between 4-9 p.m. on days when a Flex Alert is in effect." Learn more at __https://t.co/VB7dql84XI_


----------



## bstnh1

Flex alert??? lol Water shortage, power shortage, propane and propane tank shortage. Huge forest fires, return to Covid masks. Sure glad I'm on the opposite coast!


----------



## geek

Older video, now it is much better.


----------



## geek




----------



## bstnh1

Interesting. But its gonna b a long time before we see these things hanging on racks in Walmart.


----------



## bstnh1

When will they make those noisy Harleys all electric??? 🏍

I learned that Harley Davidson actually has all electric bikes for about 30 grand. Not entirely noiseless, but a lot quieter than gas.


----------



## globalnavigator

Research suggests "global battery shortages" to intensify -

_"According to a Bank of America Global Research (BAC) report, there is a looming threat of the global battery supply for electric vehicles (EVs) running dry by as early as 2025.

The report states that BofA expects global battery shortages to intensify further in the period between 2026 to 2030..."_


And that projected demand is why companies will continue to be rewarded for digging things like an _"open-air pit more than 500 feet (152 m) deep"_ as they destroy forests. Because, you know, electric vehicles are really "green".


----------



## DizzyIzzy

geek said:


> As technology advances I presume the way we charge EVs today will evolve, EVs will be able to charge in much shorter times, few minutes so you can go to a charging station just like you go to a gas station. A few years ago the super chargers were L1, then L2 and now they have L3 which allows for insane charging speed capacity.


I am thinking about purchasing an EV or hybrid, but am wondering about the cost for the electricity. I live in the country and my electric bill is already $250/month. Have you any idea on how much it costs per KWH to charge an EV?...............................................DizzyIzzy


----------



## geek

DizzyIzzy said:


> I am thinking about purchasing an EV or hybrid, but am wondering about the cost for the electricity. I live in the country and my electric bill is already $250/month. Have you any idea on how much it costs per KWH to charge an EV?...............................................DizzyIzzy



I really never measured mine or forgot to do it in a long time but this will depend on how much your electric company charges per Kw/h, i will be cheaper than gas for sure PLUS (and that is a big plus) you don't need to go to the gas station to fill up


----------



## bstnh1

DizzyIzzy said:


> I am thinking about purchasing an EV or hybrid, but am wondering about the cost for the electricity. I live in the country and my electric bill is already $250/month. Have you any idea on how much it costs per KWH to charge an EV?...............................................DizzyIzzy


I don't own an EV. But as I understand it, charging an standard EV requires about 30 KwH per hundred miles. You would need to multiply your KwH rate by 30 to get the cost for about a hundred miles of driving. It wouldn't be anywhere near your cost for gas!!


----------



## geek

It all depends on the car. For example my model 3, the battery pack is 75kwh …. And the car can do about 300 miles. So 100 miles = 25kwh

New model 3 is now rated at 353 miles with full battery. The newer model S are now over 400 miles but don’t remember how many kWh are their battery packs.

So now I’m doing the math for me. My electric rate is a bit less than .08 cents plus I think delivery fee from local electric company is .10 cents, total of about .18 cents per kWh roughly. Ballpark it would cost me about 4.50 to drive 100 miles. I’m rounding capacity of my battery pack because my car is rated to about 320 miles full charge, but in my math I used 300 miles calculating possible degradation.

So in summary about 4.50 to drive 100 miles. Also, I don’t need to do oil change, tranny fluid and won’t need a brake job possibly in 150k miles or maybe more.


----------



## geek

A friend who calculates everything and has an app to track this for him, since he bought his EV a month ago told me this past week he spent $8.43 in electricity vs estimated $25.24 in gas.


----------



## joeswine

The #1 reserves for lithium is in what is call the south American triangle, slat flats,beneath the salt flats is were the raw product lies, a natural wonders and a habitats for flamingos and lyken .the people don't want it destroyed the government of Argentina sold the mineral rights to China. 
How green is that,??
Prue and it's neighbor also own part of this landscape, it's call the South American lithium triangle.
So I ask you once again HOW GREEN IS THAT PROGRESS NEVER ENDS. 
We move on to better technology and destroy the thing we've supposed to be protecting in the name of PROGRESS, when it suits us.
Just saying .


----------



## gmiele01

heatherd said:


> Carvana has EVs and hybrids - so at least you don't 100% have to go to a dealer.


How much oil is burned at the Electricity Plant to provide the energy equivalent to charge your EV? Well you do gooders, it takes roughly 40% more fuel to burn to make the electricity to charge you EV to go the same miles using gasoline. Do if you use 14 gallons of gas for your car to go 100 miles in you gasoline powered car you would burn, at the electric plant 14 gallons of oil. So how are you reducing polution? Please explain!. Not to mention, how do they get rid of the dead batteries? Oh Yeah. They haven't figured that out yet!


----------



## David Clark

bstnh1 said:


> "General Motors is telling owners of 2017-2019 Bolt EVs that were part of a recent recall not to park their vehicles inside or charge them unattended overnight after two of the vehicles caught fire."
> Read the story on CNBC.


Years ago Ford recalled 1.5 million Pintos because people were blowing up in their cars due to fuel tank location in the event of a crash. All cars have problems, the user need to apply a little common sense.


----------



## globalnavigator

gmiele01 said:


> How much oil is burned at the Electricity Plant to provide the energy equivalent to charge your EV? Well you do gooders, it takes roughly 40% more fuel to burn to make the electricity to charge you EV to go the same miles using gasoline. Do if you use 14 gallons of gas for your car to go 100 miles in you gasoline powered car you would burn, at the electric plant 14 gallons of oil. So how are you reducing polution? Please explain!. Not to mention, how do they get rid of the dead batteries? Oh Yeah. They haven't figured that out yet!


Does look like there's a lot more inefficiencies in the process than most people think.


Electricity Generating and Distribution Efficiency


----------



## sour_grapes

Consider the cases of (1) burning a fuel in an internal combustion engine, and (2) burning a fuel for the purpose of converting it to electricity. Both cases are subject to the same ineluctable laws of physics that limit the mechanical work that can be captured to roughly half of the thermal energy contained in the primary fuel source. Real-world implementations are down to something like 25% for ICE (and somewhat higher for electric generation).

In the case of electrical generation, once the energy is in the "refined" form of electricity, it can be converted to mechanical work with high efficiency. But you still had to "take the hit" on the front end, during the conversion to electricity.

Of course, there are other ways of generating electricity besides burning fuel (wind, solar, hydro, geothermal...). And you cannot practically* use that electricity to power an ICE. So, although ICE and EV are on roughly equal carbon footing now, there is the hope that EVs could utilize primarily clean energy in the future.

*Of course, you could use the electricity to make, say, hydrogen gas from water, then burn that in an ICE, but that would be pretty silly.


----------



## geek

I not only use my EV because I'm a "green" guy, although I have a solar system at home which I love. Aside from the carbon footprint weather it is comparable to gas cars or not (and I don't have the scientific knowledge to weigh in specific to that), the advantages of driving an EV are far enough to be the choice for me.

I'm pretty sure technology will keep evolving and we will have to adapt one way or another unless one wants to stand behind. Remember how computers used HDD for storage with lots of moving pieces and such but now they have SDD with no moving parts and almost paper slim, for me the same applies to almost anything in life when it comes to technology, weather one likes it or not. If one wants to ride a horse across the country it is your prerogative since that person may be afraid or against airplanes, it is all about choices. Not comparing apples to apples but life is evolving, I do not write checks any longer (only online payments) for about 3 years, but some folks still like the old fashion way and that is ok too, their choice.

I'm sure, and hope, that EVs won't merely rely on batteries produced with lithium in the future, perhaps there will be a "mechanism" (not a battery per sa), who knows. But again for me the benefits of driving an EV are far heavier and as I mentioned before, once you drive an EV you ain't looking back.
I drove gas cars for 40 years until I drove my EV, so I can compare one versus another in terms of benefits as a consumer.


----------



## gmiele01

geek said:


> I not only use my EV because I'm a "green" guy, although I have a solar system at home which I love. Aside from the carbon footprint weather it is comparable to gas cars or not (and I don't have the scientific knowledge to weigh in specific to that), the advantages of driving an EV are far enough to be the choice for me.
> 
> I'm pretty sure technology will keep evolving and we will have to adapt one way or another unless one wants to stand behind. Remember how computers used HDD for storage with lots of moving pieces and such but now they have SDD with no moving parts and almost paper slim, for me the same applies to almost anything in life when in comes to technology, weather one likes it or not. If one wants to ride a horse across the country it is your prerogative since that person may be afraid or against airplanes, it is all about choices. Not comparing apples to apples but life is evolving, I do not write checks any longer (only online payments) for about 3 years, but some folks still like the old fashion way and that is ok too, their choice.
> 
> I'm sure, and hope, that EVs won't merely rely on batteries produced with lithium in the future, perhaps there will be a "mechanism" (not a battery per sa), who knows. But again for me the benefits of driving an EV are far heavier and as I mentioned before, once you drive an EV you ain't looking back.
> I drove gas cars for 40 years until I drove my EV, so I can compare one versus another in terms of benefits as a consumer.


Not saying it's not fun to drive, it's just not saving ANY fossil fuel and in fact Wasting more fuel so YOU can have MORE FUN driving. I think you "green" is the wrong color for your thinking.


----------



## geek

gmiele01 said:


> Not saying it's not fun to drive, it's just not saving ANY fossil fuel and in fact Wasting more fuel so YOU can have MORE FUN driving. I think you "green" is the wrong color for your thinking.



Since YOU seem to have more knowledge on the subject and an expert, then show the facts. If you love your gas car, then keep driving it, right?


----------



## zosa

Why not have both, EV for commuting and a nice truck for long hauls. Solar panels for low cost charging. No fluids in the EV means minimal maintenance for the commuter vehicle. Win win. Don't overthink.


----------



## globalnavigator

zosa said:


> Why not have both, EV for commuting and a nice truck for long hauls. Solar panels for low cost charging. No fluids in the EV means minimal maintenance for the commuter vehicle. Win win. Don't overthink.


Excellent viewpoint. It's all personal choices as to what works for you. If you live in California, for example, electric cars are way more attractive. They are heavily subsidized; since 2010, California has handed out over $800,000,000 of taxpayer money to put battery-electric, plug-in hybrid, and hydrogen fuel-cell cars on public roads. They offer a $2,000 tax credit in addition to the upwards of $7,500 federal tax credit. There are lots of charging stations. Gas is more expensive than any other state - 50% more expensive than the cheapest states on average. All these combine to make it have more sense there than a state with no state tax credits, fewer charging stations, and cheap gasoline.


----------



## bstnh1

geek said:


> I not only use my EV because I'm a "green" guy, although I have a solar system at home which I love. Aside from the carbon footprint weather it is comparable to gas cars or not (and I don't have the scientific knowledge to weigh in specific to that), the advantages of driving an EV are far enough to be the choice for me.
> 
> I'm pretty sure technology will keep evolving and we will have to adapt one way or another unless one wants to stand behind. Remember how computers used HDD for storage with lots of moving pieces and such but now they have SDD with no moving parts and almost paper slim, for me the same applies to almost anything in life when in comes to technology, weather one likes it or not. If one wants to ride a horse across the country it is your prerogative since that person may be afraid or against airplanes, it is all about choices. Not comparing apples to apples but life is evolving, I do not write checks any longer (only online payments) for about 3 years, but some folks still like the old fashion way and that is ok too, their choice.
> 
> I'm sure, and hope, that EVs won't merely rely on batteries produced with lithium in the future, perhaps there will be a "mechanism" (not a battery per sa), who knows. But again for me the benefits of driving an EV are far heavier and as I mentioned before, once you drive an EV you ain't looking back.
> I drove gas cars for 40 years until I drove my EV, so I can compare one versus another in terms of benefits as a consumer.



Do you have generator for those times when the power goes out?


----------



## David Clark

globalnavigator said:


> Does look like there's a lot more inefficiencies in the process than most people think.
> 
> 
> Electricity Generating and Distribution Efficiency


LOL, seems you think that gas grows on trees and doesn't take electricity to produce.


gmiele01 said:


> How much oil is burned at the Electricity Plant to provide the energy equivalent to charge your EV? Well you do gooders, it takes roughly 40% more fuel to burn to make the electricity to charge you EV to go the same miles using gasoline. Do if you use 14 gallons of gas for your car to go 100 miles in you gasoline powered car you would burn, at the electric plant 14 gallons of oil. So how are you reducing polution? Please explain!. Not to mention, how do they get rid of the dead batteries? Oh Yeah. They haven't figured that out yet!



Fantastic, in your Denier Science you make the assumption that no electricity is used to make gasoline. What you figure that they just pour gas out of the barrel of oil? Amazing. Maybe you should leave the science to the scientist. Like getting COVID shots, got questions about shots? Go ask your doctor. That is who you are going to go see first if you get sick with COVID. Stop looking backward and look forward, most of the World does.


----------



## gmiele01

geek said:


> Since YOU seem to have more knowledge on the subject and an expert, then show the facts. If you love your gas car, then keep driving it, right?


22,712


geek said:


> Since YOU seem to have more knowledge on the subject and an expert, then show the facts. If you love your gas car, then keep driving it, right?


Here you go Look at the data fossil fuels to electricity way at at he bottom Electricity Generating and Distribution Efficiency The table shows the theoretical efficiency of converting various energy sources by a variety of methods into useful electrical energy. Solar Panels have NO disposal plan! And eventually they go bad as they have already, AND the are toxic as they slowly run off into our water aquifers. That sounds healthy. GAS is NOT great, but it is less evil that what is needed, wasted and contaminated by present day electric vehicles! I wish there was an answer, but it is not todays electric solution.


----------



## bstnh1

David Clark said:


> Years ago Ford recalled 1.5 million Pintos because people were blowing up in their cars due to fuel tank location in the event of a crash. All cars have problems, the user need to apply a little common sense.


Common sense? Common sense won't tell you your gas tank will probably blow up if you're in an accident, nor will it tell you there's a good chance your house might burn down if you park your car in the garage.


----------



## Booty Juice

LOL I hope this thread goes on forever.


----------



## sour_grapes

gmiele01 said:


> Here you go Look at the data fossil fuels to electricity way at at he bottom Electricity Generating and Distribution Efficiency The table shows the theoretical efficiency of converting various energy sources by a variety of methods into useful electrical energy.



This is a meaningless comparison. "Efficiency" is the ratio of output energy to input energy. But the denominators in the two cases you are referring to (fossil vs. solar) are completely different.

The denominator for solar is incoming solar radiation, which, as you may recognize, is coming in all the time without intervention.

The denominator for fossil fuels is something that you went and dug out of the ground and burned, after it had accumulated there for hundreds of millions of years, and cannot be replenished.

I am not sure what comparing those ratioes has to do with _anything_. Do you?


----------



## globalnavigator

Booty Juice said:


> LOL I hope this thread goes on forever.


I hope it doesn't devolve into an ugly version of what it was. Seems typical of social media; take a good and robust discussion/debate and try to ruin it by attacking the people and not the arguments. I certainly don't believe "gas grows on trees", but there is still no agreement on exactly how oil is formed.

But speaking of trees  , I try not to miss the forest for the trees. Every energy production method will have pros and cons, and each will also have unintended and unexpected consequences. I would enjoy debating anyone on _either_ side of any of them.


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Do you have generator for those times when the power goes out?



Nope. Battery pack lasts for a few days, although never needed it that long, thank mighty God.


----------



## Eric Huser

California Rocks and thanks to them Colorado now looks about the same.


----------



## bstnh1

geek said:


> Nope. Battery pack lasts for a few days, although never needed it that long, thank mighty God.


I would think that if we progress to nearly 100% electric vehicles that generators would have to become pretty commonplace in order to maintain some degree of normalcy during prolonged power outages of 3 or 4 days which are not that rare up here. I've relied on my gasoline driven buggy to get me to a pizza place, grocery store, etc. a few towns over when power was out. Of course the need for a generator begs the question what will power it? Right now they're mostly gasoline with a small percentage of propane. Oh well, wood heat and kerosene lanterns are always an option - assuming kerosene is still available. I've done that before, many times!!


----------



## winemaker81

globalnavigator said:


> I hope it doesn't devolve into an ugly version of what it was.


Agreed. Let's ratchet tensions down and keep this a discussion that is normal for WMT, e.g., a real discussion.


----------



## wood1954

As the earth was created billions of years ago by asteroids smashing into one another doesn’t it seem likely that some of the asteroids were made up of various gases and volatile liquids creating fuel for us. Which makes it even worse for climate change, as Dino fuel was made after earth formed and is part of the carbon cycle, whereas asteroid chemicals were always locked away till we started digging them up.


----------



## bstnh1

Fully electric vehicles represent just 2% of new vehicle sales in the U.S. Prior to Covid, the U.S. was averaging about 17 million vehicles per year. 2% electric represents 340,000 vehicles. That's about one fully electric vehicle per 11 square miles.


----------



## geek

Tesla Model 3 and Y deliveries 199,049 just for this year's Q2. Up 148% compared to Q2 2020.
Numbers will keep growing exponentially for EVs moving forward, especially when Model 3 is in full production in China.


----------



## bstnh1

But is Tesla sustainable in the long run?

Tesla Made a Mountain of Money Selling Credits and Bitcoin (Not So Much in Cars)


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> But is Tesla sustainable in the long run?
> 
> Tesla Made a Mountain of Money Selling Credits and Bitcoin (Not So Much in Cars)



Time will tell if any EV manufacturer will be sustainable.


----------



## bstnh1

Five Reasons Why Internal Combustion Engines Are Here to Stay


Oil prices are down and bans on automobiles powered by internal combustion engines (ICE) are up – way up. But don’t be fooled; there is plenty of life left in the ICE. To be sure, there&rs




www.realclearenergy.org


----------



## geek




----------



## geek




----------



## bstnh1

“Every single major manufacturer is either looking at or working on hydrogen cars,” says Jon Hunt, a marketing manager for Toyota and head of commercialisation of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

“Lithium-ion battery production [for electric vehicles] is very energy-intensive. As an example, a 100kWh battery will give a potential range of 250 miles and, in order to produce that battery, it will take around 20 tonnes of CO2,” says Hunt.

*Interesting!!!*

Honda will give you $15000 worth of fuel credit if you lease one their hydrogen powered Clarity cars. The only problem is, the only fueling stations are 1 in Quebec and a few on the west coast.


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> As an example, a 100kWh battery will give a potential range of 250 miles



That cannot be right.

My car has a 75kWh battery and provides over 300 miles of range on a full charge. Depending on temperature conditions my car can give me upwards to 325 miles.


----------



## bstnh1

Don't know. That's from a Dec. 2020 article in the UK. Here's the link: Hydrogen fuel cell: do hydrogen cars have a future? | Auto Express


----------



## bstnh1

FAQ for the Airpod | Zero Pollution Motors




Of course an 18 wheeler wouldn't even know it hit this thing (and either would you!)


----------



## globalnavigator

joeswine said:


> The #1 reserves for lithium is in what is call the south American triangle, slat flats,beneath the salt flats is were the raw product lies, a natural wonders and a habitats for flamingos and lyken .the people don't want it destroyed the government of Argentina sold the mineral rights to China.
> How green is that,??
> Prue and it's neighbor also own part of this landscape, it's call the South American lithium triangle.
> So I ask you once again HOW GREEN IS THAT PROGRESS NEVER ENDS.
> We move on to better technology and destroy the thing we've supposed to be protecting in the name of PROGRESS, when it suits us.
> Just saying .


You're right Joe, now they are moving on to ravage Greenland instead. But hey, the people who can afford EVs can save a couple of bucks each year with subsidized fuel costs so it's all worth it, right?








Billionaire-backed mining firm to seek electric vehicle metals in Greenland


Mineral exploration company KoBold Metals, backed by billionaires including Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates, has signed an agreement with London-listed Bluejay Mining (JAY.L) to search in Greenland for critical materials used in electric vehicles.




www.reuters.com


----------



## joeswine

As in life with every positive aspect there's usually a down side.
We keep upgrading and as we do this the vast majority of the poor only keep going further behind d and the the seniors more left behind, I guess that's life? In this exclusive age ?


----------



## geek

Tesla confirms that 100% of its scrapped batteries are recycled and 0% end up in landfills


Tesla’s business is built on the strength of the company’s battery innovations. From the days of the original Roadster to the launch of the Model S Plaid this year, it was evident that Tesla’s battery technology is a critical factor that allows the company to maintain its lead against...




www.teslarati.com


----------



## joeswine

Heard all that before, Ya!


----------



## ibglowin

Well, well guess they found a loop hole in New Mexico to sell and service your beloved Tesla's @geek 

*Tesla picks Nambé pueblo for first NM store*

NAMBÉ PUEBLO — Sleek electric vehicles now sit inside an old casino north of Santa Fe as part of a first-of-its-kind project between Tesla and a tribal nation.

Nambé Pueblo leaders on Thursday joined U.S. Sens. Martin Heinrich and Ben Ray Luján to highlight the partnership and promote electric vehicles as part of a broader strategy to address climate change.

The new Tesla sales and service center is the first in New Mexico. It’s also the first Tesla facility, officials said, on Native American land in the United States.

“This truly represents a historic moment,” Nambé Pueblo Gov. Phillip Perez told a crowed at the event Thursday.

The pueblo location is critical. New Mexico law prohibits vehicle manufacturers from selling directly to consumers rather than through a franchise dealership, and efforts to allow Tesla storefronts and service centers have repeatedly failed in the Legislature, often amid tense debate.

But the Tesla store sits within the boundaries of a tribal nation, not subject to the state law.

Even so, Senate Majority Leader Peter Wirth of Santa Fe and Sen. Bill Tallman of Albuquerque, both Democrats, said they expect vehicle-sales legislation to be proposed in future legislative sessions. Both lawmakers attended Thursday’s event.

A 2019 proposal would have allowed electric vehicle manufacturers to sell directly to the public under certain conditions. Local auto dealers opposed the bill, arguing their businesses already support thousands of employees.

Tallman, who drives a Tesla himself, said electric vehicles “are the future” and New Mexico’s laws should keep up.

“I just think we’re going to see more and more companies using this model,” Wirth said of the Tesla store.

The 7,000-square-foot Tesla store lies in what was once a casino building near the Nambé Falls Travel Center. The casino closed in 2016 after about two years of operation.

Two cars were hoisted on automotive lifts Thursday as Tesla enthusiasts and others celebrated the opening.

Perez, the pueblo governor, said Tesla will support tutors and scholarships for Nambé Pueblo students. He delivered some of his remarks in Tewa, a native language, as he welcomed visitors to the site along U.S. Highway 285.

The company’s values, Perez said, match the pueblo’s commitment to environmental protection.

Sen. Luján, who grew up nearby, said the project represents investment “in rural America” and that he looks forward to seeing the first Tesla pickup truck.

Heinrich, who has a mechanical engineering degree, said he and other students at the University of Missouri once designed and built a solar-powered car for a race across the United States.

“I’ve seen this coming for a long time, but now it’s real,” he said of the growing prevalence of electric vehicles.

For Tesla owners, the new location will make it easier to get car repairs and avoid the drive to service centers out of state, such as in Colorado or Arizona.

Brian Dear, founder and president of the Tesla Owners Club of New Mexico, said he hopes the project will also encourage more people to buy electric vehicles as a way to cut gasoline costs and reduce carbon emissions.

“There’s nothing better if you’re buying a car than to get in it and drive around,” Dear said. “I was completely sold when I did a test drive in 2013” in San Diego.

He estimated about 1,500 Tesla vehicles are registered in New Mexico.

A standard-range Tesla Model 3 costs about $39,990 before potential discounts are factored in, according to the Tesla website. An autopilot navigation feature costs $10,000 extra.


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> Well, well guess they found a loop hole in New Mexico to sell and service your beloved Tesla's @geek
> 
> *Tesla picks Nambé pueblo for first NM store*
> 
> NAMBÉ PUEBLO — Sleek electric vehicles now sit inside an old casino north of Santa Fe as part of a first-of-its-kind project between Tesla and a tribal nation.
> 
> Nambé Pueblo leaders on Thursday joined U.S. Sens. Martin Heinrich and Ben Ray Luján to highlight the partnership and promote electric vehicles as part of a broader strategy to address climate change.
> 
> The new Tesla sales and service center is the first in New Mexico. It’s also the first Tesla facility, officials said, on Native American land in the United States.
> 
> “This truly represents a historic moment,” Nambé Pueblo Gov. Phillip Perez told a crowed at the event Thursday.
> 
> The pueblo location is critical. New Mexico law prohibits vehicle manufacturers from selling directly to consumers rather than through a franchise dealership, and efforts to allow Tesla storefronts and service centers have repeatedly failed in the Legislature, often amid tense debate.
> 
> But the Tesla store sits within the boundaries of a tribal nation, not subject to the state law.
> 
> Even so, Senate Majority Leader Peter Wirth of Santa Fe and Sen. Bill Tallman of Albuquerque, both Democrats, said they expect vehicle-sales legislation to be proposed in future legislative sessions. Both lawmakers attended Thursday’s event.
> 
> A 2019 proposal would have allowed electric vehicle manufacturers to sell directly to the public under certain conditions. Local auto dealers opposed the bill, arguing their businesses already support thousands of employees.
> 
> Tallman, who drives a Tesla himself, said electric vehicles “are the future” and New Mexico’s laws should keep up.
> 
> “I just think we’re going to see more and more companies using this model,” Wirth said of the Tesla store.
> 
> The 7,000-square-foot Tesla store lies in what was once a casino building near the Nambé Falls Travel Center. The casino closed in 2016 after about two years of operation.
> 
> Two cars were hoisted on automotive lifts Thursday as Tesla enthusiasts and others celebrated the opening.
> 
> Perez, the pueblo governor, said Tesla will support tutors and scholarships for Nambé Pueblo students. He delivered some of his remarks in Tewa, a native language, as he welcomed visitors to the site along U.S. Highway 285.
> 
> The company’s values, Perez said, match the pueblo’s commitment to environmental protection.
> 
> Sen. Luján, who grew up nearby, said the project represents investment “in rural America” and that he looks forward to seeing the first Tesla pickup truck.
> 
> Heinrich, who has a mechanical engineering degree, said he and other students at the University of Missouri once designed and built a solar-powered car for a race across the United States.
> 
> “I’ve seen this coming for a long time, but now it’s real,” he said of the growing prevalence of electric vehicles.
> 
> For Tesla owners, the new location will make it easier to get car repairs and avoid the drive to service centers out of state, such as in Colorado or Arizona.
> 
> Brian Dear, founder and president of the Tesla Owners Club of New Mexico, said he hopes the project will also encourage more people to buy electric vehicles as a way to cut gasoline costs and reduce carbon emissions.
> 
> “There’s nothing better if you’re buying a car than to get in it and drive around,” Dear said. “I was completely sold when I did a test drive in 2013” in San Diego.
> 
> He estimated about 1,500 Tesla vehicles are registered in New Mexico.
> 
> A standard-range Tesla Model 3 costs about $39,990 before potential discounts are factored in, according to the Tesla website. An autopilot navigation feature costs $10,000 extra.
> 
> View attachment 78612
> 
> 
> View attachment 78613



That's exactly the talk and rumble I hear happening in CT, they've been demoing Tesla at the Casino and may be the place for the loophole for sure. I hope it is..!!!


----------



## globalnavigator

At least with gasoline, you can fill up anytime...as long as you're willing to pay the price. 








E-car chargers will turn off to prevent blackouts


Electric car charging points in people’s homes will be preset to switch off for nine hours each weekday at times of peak demand because ministers fear blackouts




www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## sour_grapes

globalnavigator said:


> At least with gasoline, you can fill up anytime...as long as you're willing to pay the price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-car chargers will turn off to prevent blackouts
> 
> 
> Electric car charging points in people’s homes will be preset to switch off for nine hours each weekday at times of peak demand because ministers fear blackouts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetimes.co.uk



And they have gas...


----------



## globalnavigator

Good idea to always have options. My friend has one of these and it is a perfect complement to his ICE vehicle. When we had the recent multi-day gas pinch in the southeast, he just used this for grocery and local trips. Had no need to use up his gas tank unnecessarily. 








RadWagon 4 Electric Cargo Bike


Our RadWagon 4 electric cargo bike is built to haul. This kid-carrying ecargo bike has a 350-lb. payload capacity to handle multiple passengers and gear.




www.radpowerbikes.com


----------



## geek

Business trip from CT to DC, quick 25 minute stop to super charge.

These new v3 super chargers throw a very high voltage to the battery.

This tapers down as the battery gets charged but in the first 7 minutes I averaged something like 120 miles of charge. By the time I went inside in the rest area for the mens room and buy a snack (like 15 minutes or so) I had plenty of charge to reach my hotel in MD.


----------



## geek

Quick 25 minute break at the service area for car “juice” and go to the mens room, to get back home.


----------



## ibglowin

That's a what? ~325 mile trip one way? How many times do you have to stop at a super charger?


----------



## sour_grapes

geek said:


> Quick 25 minute break at the service area for car “juice” and go to the mens room,



To get RID OF juice!


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> That's a what? ~325 mile trip one way? How many times do you have to stop at a super charger?



On my way down I only stopped once since I had enough charge to get me far, I left the house with about ~247 miles.
On my return I stopped 2 times because I left the hotel with not enough charge.


----------



## hounddawg

Boatboy24 said:


> Not completely surprising. Buying an EV is a commitment to doing things a little differently. You need to perhaps plan a bit more, take advantage of short term free charging, etc. You can't just run to the nearest gas station and be 'full' in three minutes. But people will figure out how to work with that. I'm not currently in the market for a car, but will be in 3-4 years and am already looking toward an EV. Will that be the car we take on long family road trips? Maybe not. But for daily driving, or short overnights, perfect. And honestly, by then range will probably be significantly increased. In the NC Outer Banks, where we take at least one trip a year, I'm already seeing rental houses advertising EV chargers as amenities. The early(ish) adopters are working the kinks out now. It's the folks that want to look cool until they realize it might cost them a few minutes of charging or planning that are bailing. I know a few people that own Teslas, and they aren't going back any time soon. Quite the contrary - they are looking to convert their other cars to EVs.


WELL Mr. @Boatboy24 , you forggot the most important thing, once you put your cherry bombs on get them hot and run water through them, and still you can't rack your pipes, jeeze, how do you wake up your neabhors ,, lol and where the heck dose the 4-barrel hollie go ? lol
Dawg


----------



## hounddawg

finnaly yawl have scared the bejesus outta me,
i'm pulling the corks off 2 sketter pee port,,,,
Dawg


----------



## globalnavigator

winemaker81 said:


> ...
> 
> Let's look at the big picture -- to support more electric vehicles, we need to generate more electricity, which requires far more infrastructure to generate AND distribute. There is a large carbon footprint in creating batteries, and later we have to dispose of them. The grand view is not all that rosy. Besides, as more EV are created, the contention for public charging stations increases -- waiting 5 minutes in line to tank may be tedious, but having to wait an hour only to wait another hour while the car is charging?
> 
> Do we need to get away from oil/gasoline? I agree we do, but at this point mass adoption of EV is an experiment that may never achieve adoption except in specific areas, due to the systemic cost. Natural gas and hydrogen are contenders, and more likely to be successful.





Electric vehicles solve one ESG problem but create others | RBC Global Asset Management - Institutional


----------



## balatonwine

globalnavigator said:


> Electric vehicles solve one ESG problem but create others | RBC Global Asset Management - Institutional



There is a very simple saying:

To grow a green world, you have to dig a black hole somewhere.

That is, nothing is perfect. Living always requires the death of something else. Somewhere. No need to pretend it is otherwise. The question rather is not if we can avoid damage, because we can not, but simply how to find the proper balance.

Hope this helps.


----------



## globalnavigator

balatonwine said:


> There is a very simple saying:
> 
> To grow a green world, you have to dig a black hole somewhere.
> 
> That is, nothing is perfect. Living always requires the death of something else. Somewhere. No need to pretend it is otherwise. The question rather is not if we can avoid damage, because we can not, but simply how to find the proper balance.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Unfortunately, most of the time the green world benefits the haves and the black hole is dug on the have-nots.


----------



## balatonwine

globalnavigator said:


> Unfortunately, most of the time the green world benefits the haves and the black hole is dug on the have-nots.



True.

But the ICE world already did that. And continues to do that. Past and present. The past can not be undone, the present is often locked in failure to act. There can be "compensation", but damage done can often not be undone.

Question is... the green world is not fully written yet. Maybe.... maybe.... we can change that trend. We can not change the past. But we can direct the future. If we care enough to care.... The future still has possibilities.


----------



## David Clark

LOL, I laugh at all the ones stuck on gas trying to find a reason it will not work. It's technology and it always moves forward. It is going to work and people will be driving electric cars and that is just a fact. The same way we went from no TV record to Beta Max to VHS to DVD to Blue Ray and finally downloadable digital, if we have only learned one thing it is technology always leads the way. Every major manufacture has made a date to be ICE free and if they don't the Chinese will be selling cars at Walmart and all those american jobs will just be gone. This is the USA, the leader of the World, you either come along or get left behind.


----------



## geek

David Clark said:


> LOL, I laugh at all the ones stuck on gas trying to find a reason it will not work. It's technology and it always moves forward. It is going to work and people will be driving electric cars and that is just a fact. The same way we went from no TV record to Beta Max to VHS to DVD to Blue Ray and finally downloadable digital, if we have only learned one thing it is technology always leads the way. Every major manufacture has made a date to be ICE free and if they don't the Chinese will be selling cars at Walmart and all those american jobs will just be gone. This is the USA, the leader of the World, you either come along or get left behind.



I think this is right on the spot.


----------



## balatonwine

David Clark said:


> you either come along or get left behind.



Basically, the last buggy whip maker argument*. Change hurts. From other people's money:



*Artisan craftsmanship also has value... A lot of value, IMHO, within its proper place. Moving toward the future, need not mean we abandon the past. Again... balance.


----------



## globalnavigator

I'm not sure who is "stuck on gas", certainly not me. But people will continue to desire transportation vehicles to provide mobility. And the worldwide growth will only continue. The energy to run those vehicles has to come from somewhere.


----------



## balatonwine

globalnavigator said:


> I'm not sure who is "stuck on gas", certainly not me. But people will continue to desire transportation vehicles to provide mobility. And the worldwide growth will only continue. The energy to run those vehicles has to come from somewhere.



True.

The basic problem may simply be the use and types of personal transportation. Especially in the form it is taking. Larger and larger tools to do a job when a small one would be better.... smaller is better is a trend in most areas and technologies.... except personal transportation. A comparison of "_technologies_" over time:


----------



## globalnavigator

balatonwine said:


> True.
> 
> The basic problem may simply be the use and types of personal transportation. Especially in the form it is taking. Larger and larger tools to do a job when a small one would be better.... smaller is better is a trend in most areas and technologies.... except personal transportation. A comparison of "_technologies_" over time:
> 
> View attachment 80930


EV technology is good enough now. Not the best analogy to compare it to computer/chip technology which followed Moore's Law for decades. Certainly further incremental advances will come in battery technology, range expansion, quicker charges, etc. But it still comes down to energy source. For myriad reasons, local, self-production via solar technology is the best solution. It's the only method whereby you are not releasing additional energy into the environment (oil, gas, nuclear, geothermal) nor are you taking it from one location, converting and transporting it (vast solar arrays, tidal, wind) from its original location. You are simply taking the sunshine hitting your location already and converting it to your needs. Additional resources and focus should be placed on improved solar conversion efficiency, reduced energy needs through passive solar housing construction methods and materials, and appliance efficiency.


----------



## Boatboy24

balatonwine said:


> True.
> 
> The basic problem may simply be the use and types of personal transportation. Especially in the form it is taking. Larger and larger tools to do a job when a small one would be better.... smaller is better is a trend in most areas and technologies.... except personal transportation. A comparison of "_technologies_" over time:
> 
> View attachment 80930



To be fair, you can still buy a similarly sized BMW 3 series (at least I think the smaller one is a 3). But there certainly is a trend toward larger vehicles in this country.


----------



## balatonwine

globalnavigator said:


> EV technology is good enough now. Not the best analogy to compare it to computer/chip technology which followed Moore's Law for decades.



I'm not sure who is "stuck on Moore's Law", certainly not me.

The point I was making is that in many areas, energy use for personal tools has actually declined (a large 1200 watt desktop is now mostly replaced by a tiny cell phone).

Yet.... Improvements in technology is counter balanced by egos wanting social driven issues, like larger cars. And larger cars means more mass... And more mass means more energy to move. The offset in efficiency (materials to make the cars, engine efficiency, etc) can not forever counter that.

At some point... again... balance must be found. As we can not endlessly find more efficient ways to make energy if our egos find endless ways to demand more energy. Cars are only one example.

We need to consider human egos when finding solutions. And to consider that those solutions may not be only technology based. Technology alone will not save us from the issues technology creates. It may... shock... horror... need to maybe include some social basics as well.

Hope this helps.


----------



## balatonwine

Boatboy24 said:


> To be fair, you can still buy a similarly sized BMW 3 series (at least I think the smaller one is a 3). But there certainly is a trend toward larger vehicles in this country.



Oh, sure. And you can could also buy a Smart car.... How many of those do you see around? None. Because the stopped selling them in the USA... Again... Social issues in the USA are for larger and larger cars.... Also a growing trend here in Europe. Huge SUVs.... being driven with one person inside. Waste of energy. Does not matter how good the engine is, or the type of motor. Simple waste of energy. I wonder if anyone has done the full math and environmental analysis... Better for one person to drive a motorcycle with an ICE or a large Electric SUV?


----------



## Boatboy24

balatonwine said:


> Oh, sure. And you can could also buy a Smart car.... How many of those do you see around? None. Because the stopped selling them in the USA... Again... Social issues in the USA are for larger and larger cars.... Also a growing trend here in Europe. Huge SUVs.... being driven with one person inside. Waste of energy. Does not matter how good the engine is, or the type of motor. Simple waste of energy. I wonder if anyone has done the full math and environmental analysis... Better for one person to drive a motorcycle with an ICE or a large Electric SUV?



I see a lot more Smart Cars now than I did ten years ago. SUV's are certainly commonplace though. But it isn't as if smaller cars aren't available. The image originally referred to would make one think that car makers no longer offer a reasonably sized two door sedan; when, in fact, there are many available at many price points. It is us, the consumers, that are driving that trend. But's it's much easier to blame the car makers for our buying preferences.


----------



## winemaker81

David Clark said:


> Every major manufacture has made a date to be ICE free and if they don't the Chinese will be selling cars at Walmart and all those american jobs will just be gone.


Nope. The primary reason -- at this time -- why EV can't work in the USA is that we lack the ability to generate enough electricity AND distribute that electricity. It doesn't matter how good or inexpensive EV are, without the juice to power them, it's not going to happen.

Other serious problems are led by the fact that materials for batteries are not readily available in large quantities, so batteries made from more common materials must be developed.

The reality is that EV cannot mass replace ICE at this time, nor is it likely to happen in the near future. Once the problems are solved? Sure, it may happen.

Regarding deadlines, anyone can set a deadline. Achieving that deadline is something totally different. Reality is like gravity, disbelieving in it doesn't exempt anyone from it.


----------



## bstnh1

winemaker81 said:


> Nope. The primary reason -- at this time -- why EV can't work in the USA is that we lack the ability to generate enough electricity AND distribute that electricity. It doesn't matter how good or inexpensive EV are, without the juice to power them, it's not going to happen.
> 
> Other serious problems are led by the fact that materials for batteries are not readily available in large quantities, so batteries made from more common materials must be developed.
> 
> The reality is that EV cannot mass replace ICE at this time, nor is it likely to happen in the near future. Once the problems are solved? Sure, it may happen.
> 
> Regarding deadlines, anyone can set a deadline. Achieving that deadline is something totally different. Reality is like gravity, disbelieving in it doesn't exempt anyone from it.



Best response I've seen in this thread! You hit the nail on the head! The ICE will be here for quite a while yet.


----------



## balatonwine

winemaker81 said:


> Other serious problems are led by the fact that materials for batteries are not readily available in large quantities, so batteries made from more common materials must be developed.



Most batteries today are made from Lithium. According to the following link below (stanford.edu), if we used all the known lithium reserves only to make car batteries, the world could build from 4 to 8 billion cars (depending on how you calculate).... Would that be enough? Maybe not.





__





World Lithium Supply






large.stanford.edu


----------



## balatonwine

bstnh1 said:


> The ICE will be here for quite a while yet.



In theory.... the ICE engine is based on carbon. It would be expensive with today's technology, but one can turn any renewable carbon source into an ICE fuel, if the energy needed to do so was available. In which case, ICE engines can become carbon neutral. I for one think more funding should be put into any and all alternative sources of energy to make renewable liquid fuels carbon neutral. Personally, I am a fan of both decentralized solar and centralized fusion (future tech). but that is just me.

After all... No one has developed a commercial aircraft flying over the Atlantic running on batteries.....


----------



## balatonwine

Extract CO2 from our air, use it to create synthetic fuels - Energy Post


Carbon Capture needs to take off, but nobody knows how it’s going to happen. We need innovation, scrutinised, tested and funded. Jim Conca looks at a method of extracting CO2 directly from the air that’s being pioneered by Carbon Engineering in Canada, backed by private investors and government...




energypost.eu


----------



## winemaker81

balatonwine said:


> Most batteries today are made from Lithium. According to the following link below (stanford.edu), if we used all the known lithium reserves only to make car batteries, the world could build from 4 to 8 billion cars (depending on how you calculate).... Would that be enough? Maybe not.


I can't recall where I read about a limit on lithium, it was a while ago. IIRC, large deposits are in places where it's not readily available to the world, e.g., China. The article you posted stated that one enormous deposit is in Bolivia, but isn't being mined for political and economic reasons. Plus other deposits are of a type that is more expensive to extract. The issue doesn't appear to be a simple one.


----------



## bstnh1

winemaker81 said:


> I can't recall where I read about a limit on lithium, it was a while ago. IIRC, large deposits are in places where it's not readily available to the world, e.g., China. The article you posted stated that one enormous deposit is in Bolivia, but isn't being mined for political and economic reasons. Plus other deposits are of a type that is more expensive to extract. The issue doesn't appear to be a simple one.


Hang in there. The Energizer bunny will come through with a solution!


----------



## bstnh1

Musk broke it down:


There are around *two billion cars and trucks* in use in the world.
Annual production capacity is around *100 million vehicles per year*.
Cars and trucks last around 20 years before they go to the junkyard.
Electric vehicles are “still well under one percent” of the global fleet.
That means it will likely take *30 to 40 years* before Tesla doesn’t have to do any more mining for batteries, or *2050 to 2060*.


----------



## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Electric vehicles are “still well under one percent” of the global fleet.



That is why he saw the HUGE business opportunity and the company is doing so well. We can just imagine how the trend and transition to EV will evolve and be such a good business outlook for those manufacturers to adapt to the new technology moving forward. The market is tremendous.!


----------



## globalnavigator

I'll post this even at the risk of people ignoring independent rating and data in order to bash CR, me, or the information. Don't shoot the messenger!


*Car Brand Reliability Rankings*

Latest Consumer Reports ranks Tesla 27th out of 28 companies for reliability (only Lincoln worse). Scores are out of 100. 

Tesla- 25

MODEL PREDICTED RELIABILITY SCORES

Model 3 - 59

Model S - 20 

Model Y - 18

Model X - 5

Seems to apply across the EV SUV spectrum as well - _"On the other hand, all-electric SUVs are the lowest-ranking category, with an overall reliability of below average."_

It would seem there is a lot of improvement needed still.


----------



## balatonwine

"Clean" energy cars... Well, actually, like all things it is complicated....









A Power Struggle Over Cobalt Rattles the Clean Energy Revolution


The quest for Congo’s cobalt, which is vital for electric vehicles and the worldwide push against climate change, is caught in an international cycle of exploitation, greed and gamesmanship.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## ratflinger

There will be no 'clean' energy until fusion is harnessed


----------



## geek

globalnavigator said:


> I'll post this even at the risk of people ignoring independent rating and data in order to bash CR, me, or the information. Don't shoot the messenger!
> 
> 
> *Car Brand Reliability Rankings*
> 
> Latest Consumer Reports ranks Tesla 27th out of 28 companies for reliability (only Lincoln worse). Scores are out of 100.
> 
> Tesla- 25
> 
> MODEL PREDICTED RELIABILITY SCORES
> 
> Model 3 - 59
> 
> Model S - 20
> 
> Model Y - 18
> 
> Model X - 5
> 
> Seems to apply across the EV SUV spectrum as well - _"On the other hand, all-electric SUVs are the lowest-ranking category, with an overall reliability of below average."_
> 
> It would seem there is a lot of improvement needed still.



According to CR, Tesla has the most satisfied owners. 
Also CR, Tesla sells the most unreliable cars. 
Weird, huh? Be your own judge. CR has lost all credibility to me and it is known they’re bias.

I’ve had my car for over 3 years and reliability is not a problem I can tell you.

There are a few Model S owners in CT that I know and who purchased their vehicles 10 years ago, one of them with way over 200k miles, and aside from normal wear and tear expected they’ve had zero reliability issues whatsoever. There’s one guy who has never changed the brake pads.

So that article is very suspicious to us who do have these cars and can testify real life what they are for sure.


----------



## winemaker81

geek said:


> According to CR, Tesla has the most satisfied owners.
> Also CR, Tesla sells the most unreliable cars.


Actually, not weird. It's 2 different statistics. "Satisfied owners" is a single direct question asked of owners.

Reliability is based upon the repairs reported by owners. It's easily possible to have both satisfied owners and a lack of reliability as CR judges it.

Overall I find CR ratings highly useful, but on occasion I read something that "does not compute". In these cases I email with questions, and usually get a reply back. Everyone is more honest with someone looking over their shoulder .....


----------



## stickman

Maybe the nuclear breeding reactors will be the more reasonable approach to sustainable and reliable clean electric power, but still a little ways off, and also difficult to imagine the time required for all of the various buildings and homes to replace the gas fired equipment typically used in the colder parts of the world. Phased in grid upgrades etc., I don't think it's going to happen quickly, no need to rush as I think we have plenty of time to do it right.


----------



## geek

winemaker81 said:


> Actually, not weird. It's 2 different statistics. "Satisfied owners" is a single direct question asked of owners.
> 
> Reliability is based upon the repairs reported by owners. It's easily possible to have both satisfied owners and a lack of reliability as CR judges it.
> 
> Overall I find CR ratings highly useful, but on occasion I read something that "does not compute". In these cases I email with questions, and usually get a reply back. Everyone is more honest with someone looking over their shoulder .....



But I'd be curious what they call reliability. I can give you real life experience as we are over 1k group owners in CT and yes there have been quality panel gaps issues that have been corrected, but reliability means to me something you cannot rely on to use, furthermore that can be thrown out the window.
Again, there have been quality issues with the built of the body with mis-alignments and a few other issues not considered to qualify in the reliability category.

I'd call reliability something like a Chevy Bolt which the company asked owners to park their cars away from their garage due to fire hazards.

If this car I own can bring me across the country without major hiccups, if any at all, that is a reliable vehicle, to me at least. All in all, the other big boys are trying to catchup and find all kind of resources to throw dirt on the brand that has been leading EVs in technology and sales, even if that means throwing money at some people to write on the negative side. If this brand is so unreliable, I really wonder why thousands and thousands keep making reservations pushing deliveries to months before you can put your hands on a new car.

Do we all remember the "EV meeting" at the white house where Tesla was NOT invited?? Hmmmmmmm.....


----------



## joeswine

I saw an article that comes , it , that the head of the Japanese government stated they could not do EV, because they wouldn’t have enough energy left to poewet Japan. 
remember the article I stated a while back about the Lithium mining in South America , the largest supply in the world , the people that area are up in arms, so once we use the salt latte up ??????


----------



## Joel

If the people with the right power pushed perhaps they could push molten salt reactors to the forefront, they would help lighten the load with the increase of the EV's charging demands. I am counting on the free market to help push this and new solid state or a completely new type of long term batteries.


----------



## winemaker81

geek said:


> But I'd be curious what they call reliability.


It's directly related to the reports -- by Tesla owners -- of the problems encountered and -- or not -- repaired. Like 'em or not, when CR states that a vehicle is not reliable, they are fully prepared to defend themselves against lawsuits. Major vehicle manufacturers have filed lawsuits against CR, and AFAIK, all have lost.

I have nothing against Tesla or EVs in general. On the surface EVs sound like a good idea, but the reality is that our power generation and distribution infrastructure will not support large scale adoption of EVs. Until those problems are solved, EV will not gain wipe spread adoption.


----------



## geek

winemaker81 said:


> It's directly related to the reports -- by Tesla owners -- of the problems encountered and -- or not -- repaired. Like 'em or not, when CR states that a vehicle is not reliable, they are fully prepared to defend themselves against lawsuits. Major vehicle manufacturers have filed lawsuits against CR, and AFAIK, all have lost.
> 
> I have nothing against Tesla or EVs in general. On the surface EVs sound like a good idea, but the reality is that our power generation and distribution infrastructure will not support large scale adoption of EVs. Until those problems are solved, EV will not gain wipe spread adoption.



Power infrastructure may not be ready now but slowly and surely it will be. In my opinion we’ve come a long way in merely a few years, mass production of Model 3 only started 3 years ago and today one can travel across the country without problems albeit there are still some areas to cover but take a look at the charging network today, it’s unbelievable of what has been achieved in such a short time. Gas vehicles have been in mass production for decades, so again EV mass production merely a couple years.

Everything in life takes time and time will tell where EVs will be in a couple years, sales keep ramping up and more brands coming along. I cannot wait to see other brands like Ford bring their pickup truck into production for better competition and to favor consumers.

Time will tell.


----------



## Boatboy24

Cyberquad for Kids


Get ready for any adventure with the all-electric Cyberquad for Kids. Inspired by our iconic Cybertruck design, this four-wheeler features a full steel frame, cushioned seat and adjustable suspension with rear disk braking and LED light bars. Powered by a lithium-ion battery with up to 15 miles...




shop.tesla.com


----------



## ibglowin

White House Answers Why Tesla Wasn't Invited To United Auto Workers EV Event


There's finally a response from the White House on why it excluded Tesla from its EV event. Technically, it's more than just an EV event, as some in the comments kindly corrected, but the event




cleantechnica.com







geek said:


> Do we all remember the "EV meeting" at the white house where Tesla was NOT invited?? Hmmmmmmm.....


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> White House Answers Why Tesla Wasn't Invited To United Auto Workers EV Event
> 
> 
> There's finally a response from the White House on why it excluded Tesla from its EV event. Technically, it's more than just an EV event, as some in the comments kindly corrected, but the event
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cleantechnica.com



That’s all political and big BS from this administration, hands down, all BS.
They know Elon’s view on the political arena and want him down.


----------



## globalnavigator

DizzyIzzy said:


> I am thinking about purchasing an EV or hybrid, but am wondering about the cost for the electricity. I live in the country and my electric bill is already $250/month. Have you any idea on how much it costs per KWH to charge an EV?...............................................DizzyIzzy


Here's a link to a comprehensive look at total costs which you may want to view. It seems the organization and authors are respected consultants and analysts. Warning - just this sentence on the first page may trigger some EV fanatics "Electric vehicles can be more expensive to fuel than their internal combustion engine counterparts". Calm down, it says "can".


https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/EVtransition_FuelingCostStudy_10-21-21.pdf


----------



## David Clark

LOL, the title pretty much says it all, 4 of 5 early adopters stayed with electric cars. That is 80% and it is hard to get 80% to agree on anything but 80% agree electric is the way to go. As infrastructure gets better that number will only go up.


----------



## sour_grapes

David Clark said:


> LOL, the title pretty much says it all, 4 of 5 early adopters stayed with electric cars. That is 80% and it is hard to get 80% to agree on anything but 80% agree electric is the way to go. As infrastructure gets better that number will only go up.



Yup! As I said about 200 posts ago:



sour_grapes said:


> Honestly, I don't think a 20% "recidivism rate" is all that high.


----------



## Joel

Just in case some one wants to read what is exactly in the infrastructure bill here you go https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684/text. 
look forward to a tax on all mileage accrued in a year.


----------



## globalnavigator

Joel said:


> Just in case some one wants to read what is exactly in the infrastructure bill here you go https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684/text.
> look forward to a tax on all mileage accrued in a year.


Who writes these bills, and, more importantly, who reads and understands what the heck they say!

Here's an excerpt (that seems to relate to texting while driving) to make your eyes glaze over:

_(G) in paragraph (6) (as so redesignated)--
(i) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by 
striking ``set forth in this'' and inserting ``of this'';
(ii) in subparagraph (A)(ii), by striking ``set forth 
in subsection (g)(2)(B)'';
(iii) by striking subparagraphs (B) and (D);
(iv) by redesignating subparagraph (C) as subparagraph 
(B);
(v) in subparagraph (B) (as so redesignated), by 
striking ``minimum''; and
(vi) by adding at the end the following:
``(C) does not provide for--
``(i) an exemption that specifically allows a driver to 
use a personal wireless communications device for texting 
while stopped in traffic; or
``(ii) an exemption described in paragraph (7)(E).''; 
and
(H) in paragraph (7) (as so redesignated)--
(i) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A), by 
striking ``set forth in paragraph (2) or (3)'' and 
inserting ``of paragraph (4), (5), or (6)'';
(ii) by striking subparagraph (A) and inserting the 
following:_


----------



## ratflinger

globalnavigator said:


> Who writes these bills, and, more importantly, who reads and understands what the heck they say!



Do you want the real answer? Many moons ago I lived in the DC area and my wife worked for a congressman. Got the inside scoop, so to speak. There are more lawyers in DC than anywhere else on the planet, and most of them have never attempted the bar, nor do they plan to. Why, you ask? They specifically earned their law degrees so they could work for Congress. Very few of these politicians actually have an original idea, and hardly any would take the time to acually craft a bill, instead, each congress person has varying numbers of staff lawyers for this. A bill gets thought up and then sponsors are lined up. Then all the staff lawyers, from the sponsors, get together to start writing the bill, with each congress person's staff adding or subtracting from the bill, based upon the wishes of each congress person. This is why a finalized bill is so large and complex, too many cooks with their finger's in the pie. The staff lawyers make the bills complex so that is takes others lawyers to actually interpret the language, scratching each others backs comes to mind. Plus, an overly complected bill is easier to twist into something it wasn't ever supposed to be, if needed. Just remember, this is not a party problem, the process is the same no matter which side of the aisle one is on.


----------



## globalnavigator

David Clark said:


> LOL, the title pretty much says it all, 4 of 5 early adopters stayed with electric cars. That is 80% and it is hard to get 80% to agree on anything but 80% agree electric is the way to go. As infrastructure gets better that number will only go up.


As Yogi Berra once said, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." The US EV market share was at 2.2% in 2020 and kinda flat for the last 3 years. Electric car use by country - Wikipedia


----------



## geek

globalnavigator said:


> As Yogi Berra once said, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." The US EV market share was at 2.2% in 2020 and kinda flat for the last 3 years. Electric car use by country - Wikipedia



You need to take the ratio into consideration. The EV market started mass production when? Just merely a couple years ago with the Tesla model 3, compared to decades on ICE vehicles. And, Tesla is the only car maker who actually made the mass production a reality where every other car maker has been sitting back, to now realize they need to jump on the wagon.

Also, for me, I care less about those government free-bees with incentives for buying an EV, I always said that at the end the car maker usually takes the majority of the incentive into their pockets.

As I said before, time will tell, and the graph will slowly tell a different story moving forward. If anyone is against of driving an EV, so be it, keep driving a fossil fuel vehicle, this is why we love democracy so much...!!
At the end, we will all see.....


----------



## bein_bein

So, playing devil's advocate here....here's a question I don't believe ANYONE has addressed... or maybe even thought about. As you know, every gallon of gas you buy is taxed (over 45cents per gallon here in Michigan) and all that money (well SUPPOSED to be all that money...that's a whole 'nother can-o-worms here in the good ol' mitten state) but as I was saying... that money is supposed to go to road repair and road infrastructure upgrades/repairs. Now, if we all go to electric, where do we then get the money for road repair...?? More property taxes?? Increased sales taxes?? Are they gonna tax the kilowatts you use to recharge your car...? While I'm not against electric cars, I do think trying to push towards ALL electric transportation and total elimination of ICE vehicles is short sighted and problematic. That and that fact that there's nothing like standing on the accelerator of a bored out, beefed up 350 with oversized cam and having it pin you to your seat. Yeah I know, the high performance electrics can do that too but I just can't get all revved up listening to the whirrr whirrr of electric versus the ground shaking rattle of the aforementioned bored out,beefed up, HP cranking 350 c.i. BEAST ...ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH (think Tim Allen here,....lol) ...and don't even get me started on motorcycles... But anyways... where/how do YOU think they will make up the short fall to collect money for road repair....


----------



## Joel

geek said:


> You need to take the ratio into consideration. The EV market started mass production when? Just merely a couple years ago with the Tesla model 3, compared to decades on ICE vehicles. And, Tesla is the only car maker who actually made the mass production a reality where every other car maker has been sitting back, to now realize they need to jump on the wagon.
> 
> Also, for me, I care less about those government free-bees with incentives for buying an EV, I always said that at the end the car maker usually takes the majority of the incentive into their pockets.
> 
> As I said before, time will tell, and the graph will slowly tell a different story moving forward. If anyone is against of driving an EV, so be it, keep driving a fossil fuel vehicle, this is why we love democracy so much...!!
> At the end, we will all see.....





bein_bein said:


> So, playing devil's advocate here....here's a question I don't believe ANYONE has addressed... or maybe even thought about. As you know, every gallon of gas you buy is taxed (over 45cents per gallon here in Michigan) and all that money (well SUPPOSED to be all that money...that's a whole 'nother can-o-worms here in the good ol' mitten state) but as I was saying... that money is supposed to go to road repair and road infrastructure upgrades/repairs. Now, if we all go to electric, where do we then get the money for road repair...?? More property taxes?? Increased sales taxes?? Are they gonna tax the kilowatts you use to recharge your car...? While I'm not against electric cars, I do think trying to push towards ALL electric transportation and total elimination of ICE vehicles is short sighted and problematic. That and that fact that there's nothing like standing on the accelerator of a bored out, beefed up 350 with oversized cam and having it pin you to your seat. Yeah I know, the high performance electrics can do that too but I just can't get all revved up listening to the whirrr whirrr of electric versus the ground shaking rattle of the aforementioned bored out,beefed up, HP cranking 350 c.i. BEAST ...ARGH ARGH ARGH ARGH (think Tim Allen here,....lol) ...and don't even get me started on motorcycles... But anyways... where/how do YOU think they will make up the short fall to collect money for road repair....



If you go and look into the infrastructure bill they passed they have a bit in there about taxing every driver a mileage tax. I personally think this will drive more cost onto low income and middle class. Then again when has either of the parties truly cared about the low income or middle class?


----------



## ChuckD

You are correct. If we achieve a significant uptake of EV’s then the tax system must change to pay for infrastructure. Right now the gas tax is a surrogate for miles driven with a bonus for having high mileage vehicles. With EV’s the sensible alternative tax on users is for miles driven. Of course taxing ICE vehicles this way and keeping the gas tax would be double dipping (and wrong). 
Nothing in life is free!!


----------



## Boatboy24

In many parts of the country (it's become epidemic here), new roads or road improvements are adding new (or repurposing existing) lanes with toll lanes. That's one way they're getting the gas tax back. You can bet your butt that there will be increased taxes on electricity as EV's become more popular.


----------



## geek

Well well, the tax we pay in gas is "supposed" to be used on roads, bridges and what not....so do they really use the money for that purpose because I see these politicians trying to pass an unprecedented spending "infrastructure" bill because our roads, bridges and the like are in need for repair.


----------



## Boatboy24

geek said:


> Well well, the tax we pay in gas is "supposed" to be used on roads, bridges and what not....so do they really use the money for that purpose because I see these politicians trying to pass an unprecedented spending "infrastructure" bill because our roads, bridges and the like are in need for repair.



It's your fault, Varis. You aren't buying any gas to support the cause.


----------



## ratflinger

Yeah, well, the short answer is duh. Look at the places where the lottery funds were to be used for schools, the funds actually are, but the politicians redirected the general use funds that used to go to the schools too. So it works out that the schools still have the same amount of funds. Never stand between a politician and a bag of someone else's money.


----------



## joeswine

Give them time and 

and you’ll see the end of the middle income, their already doing in on plan site , just look at the west coast,
Road tax’s are already paid in tolls, which if I’m not miss that was part of the the 13 Colonies problem also.
Each generation has had its growing pains , this is something totally different


----------



## bein_bein

ratflinger said:


> Yeah, well, the short answer is duh. Look at the places where the lottery funds were to be used for schools, the funds actually are, but the politicians redirected the general use funds that used to go to the schools too. So it works out that the schools still have the same amount of funds. Never stand between a politician and a bag of someone else's money.


Yup... same here in Moosagain  and there are all sorts of special mis-directed funds from gas taxes, that's why our wonderful (said facetiously ) governor tried running on a "Fix the damn roads." campaign that got her nowhere.


----------



## ChuckD

geek said:


> Well well, the tax we pay in gas is "supposed" to be used on roads, bridges and what not....so do they really use the money for that purpose because I see these politicians trying to pass an unprecedented spending "infrastructure" bill because our roads, bridges and the like are in need for repair.


They do. It’s just not enough


----------



## FredTheNuke

I own an EV here in North Carolina. Because it’s an EV I pay an extra 130 bucks or so on my registration each year to make up for the lost gas tax.


----------



## Swedeman

FredTheNuke said:


> Because it’s an EV I pay an extra 130 bucks or so on my registration each year to make up for the lost gas tax.


So a fix amount independent of how long you have been driving? It sounds like that we in Sweden will get a milage based tax in the future. (we used to have that on diesel fueled cars, all diesel cars had a meter for that.) In Norway, where more than 2/3 of all new cars are electric, the government received 1/3 less tax from fuel comparing 2013 and 2020. Ironically, it's their good economy, which is due to their oil production, that have paid for the switch to electric cars (no tax, no VAT, free parking, no fee on toll roads, free electricity on municipal charging stations etc. if you have an electric car) Even in Sweden electric cars are subsidized, if you buy a new one, you will receive roughly 7800 USD from the tax payers.


----------



## geek

FredTheNuke said:


> I own an EV here in North Carolina. Because it’s an EV I pay an extra 130 bucks or so on my registration each year to make up for the lost gas tax.



That sucks. In CT the registration is actually cheaper. In NJ (where my car is registered) I only paid registration one time and I think is valid for 4 years or so).


----------



## FredTheNuke

Uncle Sam paid $7500 of my leaf when I bought it in 2019.


----------



## ibglowin

Well you do realize its only a matter of time before all States are forced to charge higher EV registration tags. There is no free ride and roads will need to be maintained one way or another with or with out gas tax.



geek said:


> That sucks. In CT the registration is actually cheaper. In NJ (where my car is registered) I only paid registration one time and I think is valid for 4 years or so).


----------



## joeswine

Ha , yes let the games begin, tax’s , fees and the game stays the same no matter the player’s.
Here’s the game , them that’s got shall get and them that’s not shall loss. 
Japan has declared they don’t have enough power to supply there own cities yet alone EV vehicles.
China has rolling black outs do to lack of coal , oil and natural gas shortages,
Yes let the Games begin


----------



## bstnh1

ratflinger said:


> Yeah, well, the short answer is duh. Look at the places where the lottery funds were to be used for schools, the funds actually are, but the politicians redirected the general use funds that used to go to the schools too. So it works out that the schools still have the same amount of funds. Never stand between a politician and a bag of someone else's money.


Exactly what they do here. Send a million bucks from lottery sales to the schools and cut a million bucks for schools out of the general budget.


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> Well you do realize its only a matter of time before all States are forced to charge higher EV registration tags. There is no free ride and roads will need to be maintained one way or another with or with out gas tax.



I’d be more happy to pay a “gas” tax driving an EV rather than an ICE car, hands down.


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## globalnavigator

As the Beatles stated:

_"If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet"_


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## joeswine

geek said:


> I’d be more happy to pay a “gas” tax driving an EV rather than an ICE car, hands down.


As long as you can afford to , what about the masses of the population that are in poverty across this country who can’t a mileage tax on middle income who are being driven into poverty and that’s a fact across this country , how much more can the afford or not .
Just my thought’s.
Yet alone highway taxes for diesel vehicles.
I agree it’s time will come , which usually means industry is the driving force not politics, industry knows how to create positive change for the most part , political parties don’t .


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## joeswine

One could also state that 1 in every 4 Californians are leaving the state , imagine that.
Estimated 60 k homeless in LA, 40 k in San Diago and Long Beach , Calls is also having limited electrical usage with rolling brown outs,
You notice Tesler.left.


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## geek

joeswine said:


> As long as you can afford to , what about the masses of the population that are in poverty across this country who can’t a mileage tax on middle income who are being driven into poverty and that’s a fact across this country , how much more can the afford or not .
> Just my thought’s.
> Yet alone highway taxes for diesel vehicles.
> I agree it’s time will come , which usually means industry is the driving force not politics, industry knows how to create positive change for the most part , political parties don’t .



My comment is in regards to the tax you already pay in a daily basis. I’d be happy to pay that tax driving an EV rather than a gas car, got it?


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## ratflinger

Then be happy, you can drive whatever you wish to in this country.


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## geek

Tesla just released their sales figures for Q4/2021. If you have stock in Tesla, you are going to be a very happy person when the market opens tomorrow. Total Q4 sales were 308,600 vehicles, up 67,000 from Q3, for a total of 936,172 for the year. In a year that is supposed to be an epidemic induced slowdown in new car sales.

Last year they sold a total of 499,647 vehicles. So, they nearly doubled their sales......

Just for some historical context and to illustrate Tesla's incredible growth, the follow are the sales figures going back to June 2012.

2012 - 2,650. (S)
2013 - 22,242 (S)
2014 - 31,655 (S)
2015 - 51,773 (S X)
2016 - 76,285 (S X)
2017 - 103,281 (S X 3)
2018 - 245,530 (S X 3)
2019 - 367,656 (S X 3)
2020 - 499,647 (S X 3 Y)
2021 - 936,172 (S X 3 Y)

See the trend?


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## globalnavigator

geek said:


> Tesla just released their sales figures for Q4/2021. If you have stock in Tesla, you are going to be a very happy person when the market opens tomorrow.


If you have stock in Tesla, you are going to be a very happy person *if you sell your stock *when the market opens tomorrow. 
(Down 16% since then so I fixed the sentence.) 

Musk is smart in so many ways. Pure genius move (at this point) to sell $10,000,000,000 worth of his TSLA holdings back in November at much higher prices than today.


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## Dennis Griffith

globalnavigator said:


> If you have stock in Tesla, you are going to be a very happy person *if you sell your stock *when the market opens tomorrow.
> (Down 16% since then so I fixed the sentence.)
> 
> Musk is smart in so many ways. Pure genius move (at this point) to sell $10,000,000,000 worth of his TSLA holdings back in November at much higher prices than today.


I do agree, Elon Musk is one smart cookie..


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## globalnavigator

globalnavigator said:


> If you have stock in Tesla, you are going to be a very happy person *if you sell your stock *when the market opens tomorrow.
> (Down 16% since then so I fixed the sentence.)
> 
> Musk is smart in so many ways. Pure genius move (at this point) to sell $10,000,000,000 worth of his TSLA holdings back in November at much higher prices than today.


Just to be clear, this was not meant to be negative towards Geek so I apologize if it was construed that way.


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## She’sgonnakillme

geek said:


> Tesla just released their sales figures for Q4/2021. If you have stock in Tesla, you are going to be a very happy person when the market opens tomorrow. Total Q4 sales were 308,600 vehicles, up 67,000 from Q3, for a total of 936,172 for the year. In a year that is supposed to be an epidemic induced slowdown in new car sales.
> 
> Last year they sold a total of 499,647 vehicles. So, they nearly doubled their sales......
> 
> Just for some historical context and to illustrate Tesla's incredible growth, the follow are the sales figures going back to June 2012.
> 
> 2012 - 2,650. (S)
> 2013 - 22,242 (S)
> 2014 - 31,655 (S)
> 2015 - 51,773 (S X)
> 2016 - 76,285 (S X)
> 2017 - 103,281 (S X 3)
> 2018 - 245,530 (S X 3)
> 2019 - 367,656 (S X 3)
> 2020 - 499,647 (S X 3 Y)
> 2021 - 936,172 (S X 3 Y)
> 
> See the trend?



There will be a cap on sales for EV companies as most people cannot afford their high price tags. And many more cannot justify the $20-30k premium price for the opportunity to offset $2500 per year in fuel costs, the economics don’t add up.


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## bstnh1

"On Tuesday, Tesla’s China website listed the starting price of the Model 3 Performance at 367,900 yuan ($57,648). The South China Morning Post reported on Mar. 10 the price was 349,900 yuan after a previous increase that day.

The Model Y Long Range in China now costs 375,900 yuan — up from the previous price of 357,900 yuan. The Model Y Performance is currently priced at 417,900 yuan, up from 397,900 yuan previously."

Gee .... my $32,000 Toyota Tacoma sounds like a pretty good deal right about now.


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## joeswine

bstnh1 said:


> "On Tuesday, Tesla’s China website listed the starting price of the Model 3 Performance at 367,900 yuan ($57,648). The South China Morning Post reported on Mar. 10 the price was 349,900 yuan after a previous increase that day.
> 
> The Model Y Long Range in China now costs 375,900 yuan — up from the previous price of 357,900 yuan. The Model Y Performance is currently priced at 417,900 yuan, up from 397,900 yuan previously."
> 
> Gee .... my $32,000 Toyota Tacoma sounds like a pretty good deal right about now.
> 
> View attachment 85753


Time will move us in another direction not force , industry will show us the way with a long term plan.


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## geek

bstnh1 said:


> "On Tuesday, Tesla’s China website listed the starting price of the Model 3 Performance at 367,900 yuan ($57,648). The South China Morning Post reported on Mar. 10 the price was 349,900 yuan after a previous increase that day.
> 
> The Model Y Long Range in China now costs 375,900 yuan — up from the previous price of 357,900 yuan. The Model Y Performance is currently priced at 417,900 yuan, up from 397,900 yuan previously."
> 
> Gee .... my $32,000 Toyota Tacoma sounds like a pretty good deal right about now.
> 
> View attachment 85753



Yep, that's right, price increases due to the very high demand.
I was going to sell my Model 3 and get a Model Y but the Y increased just about $10k just in 2021. My friend bought his Y in Dec 2020 for less than $50k.

The Y just had another increase a few days ago, the first one this year, and there's no signs of slowing down since deliveries are not being out for almost a year before you can get a new car after you place the order. It is crazy, but again is all about the demand.

For the time being, I'm keeping my 3 and enjoying the cost for me to drive watching the current gas prices


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## bstnh1

geek said:


> Yep, that's right, price increases due to the very high demand.
> I was going to sell my Model 3 and get a Model Y but the Y increased just about $10k just in 2021. My friend bought his Y in Dec 2020 for less than $50k.
> 
> The Y just had another increase a few days ago, the first one this year, and there's no signs of slowing down since deliveries are not being out for almost a year before you can get a new car after you place the order. It is crazy, but again is all about the demand.
> 
> For the time being, I'm keeping my 3 and enjoying the cost for me to drive watching the current gas prices



Hi demand??? Nope! Musk blamed it on cost of materials, particularly nickel and inflation pressures. He did not mention demand - just the cost of materials.


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## globalnavigator

geek said:


> Yep, that's right, price increases due to the very high demand.
> I was going to sell my Model 3 and get a Model Y but the Y increased just about $10k just in 2021. My friend bought his Y in Dec 2020 for less than $50k.
> 
> The Y just had another increase a few days ago, the first one this year, and there's no signs of slowing down since deliveries are not being out for almost a year before you can get a new car after you place the order. It is crazy, but again is all about the demand.
> 
> For the time being, I'm keeping my 3 and enjoying the cost for me to drive watching the current gas prices


You are conflating new car pricing of Teslas in China with used car pricing in the US. One has very little to do with the other. The used car market in this country is making all vehicles rise in price. "Used-car prices rose 40.5% in January from a year ago" Why Your Car Might Be Worth More Today Than When You Bought It


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## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Hi demand??? Nope! Musk blamed it on cost of materials, particularly nickel and inflation pressures. He did not mention demand - just the cost of materials.



That too. I'm just speaking from feedback from different groups I participate and soooo man people waiting in line.


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## geek

globalnavigator said:


> You are conflating new car pricing of Teslas in China with used car pricing in the US. One has very little to do with the other. The used car market in this country is making all vehicles rise in price. "Used-car prices rose 40.5% in January from a year ago" Why Your Car Might Be Worth More Today Than When You Bought It



Negative. I am talking about people waiting for new cars here in the US, many factors around the reason why the wait time is months.


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## bstnh1

Elon Musk’s Tesla may not pump out fumes from the tailpipe. But that does not make it environmentally-friendly. The process of producing batteries for one Tesla car has as much pollution as driving a gas-fueled vehicle for eight years.

While an electric car does not need gas, it might still get its energy from burning carbon. It depends on how your local grid generates electricity. When you factor in other things like the high-performing metals needed to make an electric vehicle, you will find electric cars, more so Tesla vehicles, are just as environmentally damaging as conventional cars.

*The biggest green thing Tesla does is in Elon Musk's wallet!*


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## geek

bstnh1 said:


> Elon Musk’s Tesla may not pump out fumes from the tailpipe. But that does not make it environmentally-friendly. The process of producing batteries for one Tesla car has as much pollution as driving a gas-fueled vehicle for eight years.
> 
> While an electric car does not need gas, it might still get its energy from burning carbon. It depends on how your local grid generates electricity. When you factor in other things like the high-performing metals needed to make an electric vehicle, you will find electric cars, more so Tesla vehicles, are just as environmentally damaging as conventional cars.
> 
> *The biggest green thing Tesla does is in Elon Musk's wallet!*



That horse has been beaten to death many times on this thread, one can argue one way or another and everyone may have a fair point of view.
I was responding to your post regarding price increases and I provided a fact that here in the US the Model Y has increased over $10k in over a year, I am not talking about used vehicle market but new cars.

As stated before, my friend bought a Y in Dec. 2020 for less than $50k but now the same car is about $60k.

Putting the environmental aspect on the side for a moment.....Personally, my own experience, my own feedback and my own opinion.....I would never drive a gas car if I can drive an EV. Just the benefit for me of charging at home without the need to drive to a gas station, priceless....

YMMV.


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## cmason1957

<BEGIN PARODY>
Everybody knows them new fangled Gasoline Powered Vehicles are just a fad. Why who would want to drive around with something that could explode and kill everybody.
<END PARODY>

I'm sure that there were many who made that statement or similar back in 1910-20. EV's are the future, it's not here yet, once the EV chargers are built out and the range increases, there will be no denying that they are better for the environment.









Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA


Facts and myths about electric vehicles.




www.epa.gov





Battery technology will improve and we will have batteries that aren't made out of anything like they are today. I don't know (and nobody does) when this will be. For me, living in Missouri and occasionally driving to the backwoods of Minnesota and Iowa they aren't practical yet. There isn't enough population density for there to be charging stations along much of the path, unless I go a different path, but it will be there, eventually. Much like gas stations were hard to come by at one point in time.


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## Dennis Griffith

Now if we could just get the resources necessary to do all this.


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## geek

cmason1957 said:


> Battery technology will improve and we will have batteries that aren't made out of anything like they are today. I don't know (and nobody does) when this will be



I think that may sum it up.
It is a matter of time, whether now or in 20~50 years. What I know is that us, humans, sometimes find it hard to adapt to new technologies and to changes. 
If one still writes checks to pay for services, that person is likely getting behind, just an example that we need to adapt to changes and do things better and more efficient possibly.

Who knows, maybe there's going to be a flying car available for cheap way ahead in the future  Jetsons.....


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## bstnh1

Where we gonna get all that lectricity to charge up them battries..... Russia? Saudi Arabia?


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## winemaker81

geek said:


> It is a matter of time, whether now or in 20~50 years. What I know is that us, humans, sometimes find it hard to adapt to new technologies and to changes.


I've been following this thread since the beginning, and IMO you have it wrong. It doesn't seem that anyone is doubting that we will have change. The consistent point is that EV are not ready for mass adoption and in the USA we are completely lacking in a path forward. I follow technology news and this is not limited to the USA.

Our current infrastructure is incapable of supplying sufficient electricity and does not have a growth path, and we need a completely new battery design to get around the lack of sufficient raw materials for long term growth.

Without a realistic plan for better power generation, and without a new battery design that does not rely on limited materials, EV will be a failed experiment.

The next 10 years should prove interesting. If there's enough revenue involved -- if the above problems are solvable, they will be solved. Or something else (hydrogen power?) will take its place. I'm looking forward to the result, either way.


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## bstnh1

winemaker81 said:


> I've been following this thread since the beginning, and IMO you have it wrong. It doesn't seem that anyone is doubting that we will have change. The consistent point is that EV are not ready for mass adoption and in the USA we are completely lacking in a path forward. I follow technology news and this is not limited to the USA.
> 
> Our current infrastructure is incapable of supplying sufficient electricity and does not have a growth path, and we need a completely new battery design to get around the lack of sufficient raw materials for long term growth.
> 
> Without a realistic plan for better power generation, and without a new battery design that does not rely on limited materials, EV will be a failed experiment.
> 
> The next 10 years should prove interesting. If there's enough revenue involved -- if the above problems are solvable, they will be solved. Or something else (hydrogen power?) will take its place. I'm looking forward to the result, either way.


I believe you're right on all points. At this point in time, the ice is still king of the road and the ev is an experiment. The outcome is more than foggy. I remember buying hoards of 8-track tapes thinking those puny cassetts will never be the future! One never knows what the future holds!


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## geek

winemaker81 said:


> I've been following this thread since the beginning, and IMO you have it wrong. It doesn't seem that anyone is doubting that we will have change. The consistent point is that EV are not ready for mass adoption and in the USA we are completely lacking in a path forward. I follow technology news and this is not limited to the USA.
> 
> Our current infrastructure is incapable of supplying sufficient electricity and does not have a growth path, and we need a completely new battery design to get around the lack of sufficient raw materials for long term growth.
> 
> Without a realistic plan for better power generation, and without a new battery design that does not rely on limited materials, EV will be a failed experiment.
> 
> The next 10 years should prove interesting. If there's enough revenue involved -- if the above problems are solvable, they will be solved. Or something else (hydrogen power?) will take its place. I'm looking forward to the result, either way.



I’m not sure how I have it wrong based on your estimates.
I never said this is the future now, always said the infrastructure and the way we make batteries need to evolve, there’s no question about it. But again it is a matter of time whether you want to acknowledge anyone else’s point or not.

The EV market is merely scratching the surface at this point, yes sales at a record highs for Tesla but the market is huge to flip the coin from one day to another.

As mentioned before, look at trends. Gas vehicles have been in mass production for many decades, so right now you can not compare apples to apples.

But hey, there’s always someone who likes to ride a horse and there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s about choice and being part of the change and evolving as life continues.


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## joeswine

Let the Market place drive it , it always has.


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## ibglowin

It’s a Perfect Time for EVs. It’s a Terrible Time for EVs


Gas prices are up, commutes are back, and Russian oil is under sanction. Too bad the electric vehicle industry isn’t ready to seize the moment.




www.wired.com


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## bstnh1

USA Today estimated 8 years ago that we had 53.3 years worth of oil left on Earth. I guess that means as of 2022 we have about a 45 year supply left. Interesting. I won't be here, so I'm keeping my gasoline guzzling V-6.


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## joeswine

All these estimates, Predictions and over 40 million people are below or are In poverty and what was the middle income is headed downward (the new poverty line).
Ask these people if in there future there thinking about buying an electric vehicle.
Sorry for the rant


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## Dennis Griffith

joeswine said:


> All these estimates, Predictions and over 40 million people are below or are In poverty and what was the middle income is headed downward (the new poverty line).
> Ask these people if in there future there thinking about buying an electric vehicle.
> Sorry for the rant


I fear your numbers may be conservative in regards to the number of people who view EVs as 'out of reach'.


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## winemaker81

It's been pointed out that the overall powergrid across the USA is not robust enough for widespread EV adoption. Today, CA asked folks to not charge EV due to strains on the power grid.









California Asks Residents to Avoid Charging Electric Cars Amid Power Grid Strain


California's power grid operators have asked the state's residents to conserve electricity in order to put less strain on the power grid amid a major heat wave...




www.newsmax.com
 




Problems such as these can be solved, but that's in the future. Right now, they are a show stopping problem.


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## sour_grapes

winemaker81 said:


> It's been pointed out that the overall powergrid across the USA is not robust enough for widespread EV adoption. *Today*, CA asked folks to not charge EV due to strains on the power grid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> California Asks Residents to Avoid Charging Electric Cars Amid Power Grid Strain
> 
> 
> California's power grid operators have asked the state's residents to conserve electricity in order to put less strain on the power grid amid a major heat wave...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newsmax.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Problems such as these can be solved, but that's in the future. Right now, they are a show stopping problem.



A few things. First of all, "today" is not June, 2021. Second, Newsmax is not a serious outlet of news. It is a screed, pure and simple. Moreover, the article you referenced did not do any reporting. It just cited the Epoch Times. From Wiki: "The Epoch Times is a far-right international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement." And the cited Epoch Times article just says that the grid operators (not the state of California) _asked_ people not to charge during the high-demand period.

WADR, I do not believe this adds any valuable information to this conversation.


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## joeswine

California has a grid problem as well as many other states do , and with the gas problem the way it is at this time and the resources we have as well as the big tech we should have never gotten to this point, never.
For the most part once government gets in the way and political ambitions and egos interfere nothing ever gets done.
All sources of renewable energy sources should and need to be used , no dought, 
Japan leader stated how can they go electric when they haven’t enough problems supplying to usage’s they have now.
Start with plastic bottles and work your way down, .
China, Russia, India who has very little energy sources will never see electric cars, they can’t get out of the use of Coal, NG, and oil.
Over 50% of. Britain will never see eve in their life time, 
Let time and business move us forward not political agendas.
Sorry for the rant.


----------



## Rocky

My view on personally trying a new technology is summed up in words I heard long ago; "The pioneers were killed by the Indians; the settlers came later." (For all the PC conscious out there, you may substitute "native Americans," but I am quoting it the way I heard it.)

I do not doubt that there will be a replacement for the ICE and my concern about EV's is the rush to adopt a technology the consequences of which, I feel, have not been fully considered and accommodated. The fact that sales are on the rise for EV's does not mean they are a viable option to the ICE. In a world where Madison Avenue can get people to pay $5 for a cup of coffee, anything is possible.


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## sour_grapes

joeswine said:


> California has a grid problem as well as many other states do , and with the gas problem the way it is at this time and the resources we have as well as the big tech we should have never gotten to this point, never.
> For the most part once government gets in the way and political ambitions and egos interfere nothing ever gets done.
> All sources of renewable energy sources should and need to be used , no dought,
> Japan leader stated how can they go electric when they haven’t enough problems supplying to usage’s they have now.
> Start with plastic bottles and work your way down, .
> China, Russia, India who has very little energy sources will never see electric cars, they can’t get out of the use of Coal, NG, and oil.
> Over 50% of. Britain will never see eve in their life time,
> Let time and business move us forward not political agendas.
> Sorry for the rant.



Should I assume, then, that you are opposed to the governmental policy of, say, subsidizing the cost of home ownership (through mortgage tax deductions) as a way of increasing home ownership?


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## crushday

When will a moderator step in and remove this string as divisive and incredibly out of scope?


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## ibglowin

Locking thread.


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