# BIG RED



## Berry Juice (Nov 14, 2018)

Hello all,
I just enjoyed a very nice Cab
Cliff Lede Stags Leap Cab.
What kit is out there that compares to this CAB
Vivino says this is a $80 but I paied$125. I any case it was surperb bottle.
I want to make this, is it possible???


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## Johnd (Nov 14, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Hello all,
> I just enjoyed a very nice Cab
> Cliff Lede Stags Leap Cab.
> What kit is out there that compares to this CAB
> ...



That’s a wonderful wine, rated 93 by WA, and 91 on CT, odds are, you’ll not make a comparable wine from a kit. Best Cab kit I’ve done is the WE Lodi Ranch II Cab.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 15, 2018)

Really!!???
I would have thought there were more high end kits available.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 15, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Really!!???
> I would have thought there were more high end kits available.



It’s hard enough for a winery to produce an $80 bottle of wine let alone making a box full of ingredients to recreate one at home!


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## pillswoj (Nov 16, 2018)

If you are asking about good big red high end kits there are plenty depending on your taste, if you are asking for a match to an $80 93 point wine.......

Good Red Kits - age a minimum of 2 years
WE Eclipse - Stags Leap Merlot
WE Eclipse - Lodi Cab Sauv
CC Showcase Walla Walla Cab Merlot
CC Showcase Amarone
RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan

All 3 Companies have Limited editions Dec - March which are generally excellent. 

I am sure others can chime in with Big reds they have made and enjoyed, but to expect it to reach the level of an $80 bottle is a bit much.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 16, 2018)

What does it take to get to a $80/90 bottle, 
With these that you suggested, are they classed in the $15-20 range or better


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## Ajmassa (Nov 16, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> What does it take to get to a $80/90 bottle,




I think your missing the whole point of home winemaking


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## Berry Juice (Nov 16, 2018)

Nope, just looking for a great high end product


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## Johnd (Nov 16, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> What does it take to get to a $80/90 bottle,
> With these that you suggested, are they classed in the $15-20 range or better



You're not going to produce an $80 and highly rated bottle of wine with a kit at a cost of under $5 / bottle. Period. If it were possible, why would wineries even produce wines from grapes at higher cost when they too could use kits. Kits don't have the quality fruit needed, and the process is truncated to make it easy to do at home, sacrificing the part of the process where the grapes are fermented on their own skins, pulp, and juice.


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## Trick (Nov 16, 2018)

The juice for kits is typically from mass production vineyard. No control on yield.


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## stickman (Nov 16, 2018)

There are some high end grapes available, but your winemaking skills better be up to the task; it's easy to take $80/bottle fruit and end up with a $5 bottle of wine.


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## Donz (Nov 16, 2018)

It's all about the fruit. You're not going to get Napa Stags Leap fruit and no kit would be even remotely close to CliffLede Cab.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 16, 2018)

To make a $80/bottle wine, you must start with super high quality, low volume fruit, age it in a barrel for at least two years, then bottle age for another year, maybe three. With a wine kit you are starting with nearly lowest common denominator juice, so you are behind the curve already. You can easily get a $15-20 bottle of wine and maybe after three years it might be as much as a $30 bottle of wine, but all the stars gotta align just right and you gotta really be on top of the winemaking learning curve for it to happen.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 16, 2018)

I see, thanks for all the comments.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 16, 2018)

Are we sure the stage leap kits contain juice from grapes from stags leap district? 

And— is there any other cheap wine made with stage leap fruit? I pretty much see only expensive stuff. 

So @Berry_Juice’s thought process isn’t crazy. To anyone not completely buried in home winemaking and related discussion day in and day out— it would seem like juice from the same upscale district as these expensive wines should make some similar wine. 
I’ve never even had an $80 bottle of stags leap anything before though. But I imagine it’s not bad!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 16, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> A
> And— is there any other cheap wine made with stage leap fruit? I pretty much see only expensive stuff.



Sure, just go to Trader Joe's: https://www.wine.com/product/trader-joes-stags-leap-district-grand-reserve-merlot-lot-70-2013/344674


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## Ajmassa (Nov 16, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Sure, just go to Trader Joe's: https://www.wine.com/product/trader-joes-stags-leap-district-grand-reserve-merlot-lot-70-2013/344674



Well I’ll be goddamned! Never knew this.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 16, 2018)

Fair warning, though. I have come to the conclusion that there are two types of TJ wines. They seem to have: (1) normal commercial wines that you see in other stores, for normal prices. (2) Wines you see no where else, some of which are from famous regions, for what seems like very small money. It turns out that the latter are privately labelled wines produced for TJ, and I assume that they are NOT exemplars of the region. I have bought $20 Amarones, $12 Ripassos, $20 Brunellos, $10 Bordeaux, $15 Chateauneufs-du-pape, etc. from TJ. These were are passable (no pun intended), but nothing special; in particular, they compare poorly to the same list of wines found elsewhere, but add $10 to the prices I listed.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 16, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Are we sure the stage leap kits contain juice from grapes from stags leap district?
> 
> And— is there any other cheap wine made with stage leap fruit? I pretty much see only expensive stuff.
> I’ve never even had an $80 bottle of stags leap anything before though. But I imagine it’s not bad!



I believe that if a kit says Stags Leap Merlot or High Tail Niagara (Canadian) Merlot or Italian Amarone or Australian Savignon Blanc, you can assume that the grape is mostly the grape indicated (at least 75-80%) and that it was grown in the region indicated, but maybe grown by new growers or from the far left/right/north/south of the region. I am pretty sure that I read Tim Vandergrift say that kit manufacturers stick to the same rules as wines do, although it may not be required by law, like alcohol labeling. I do know that for TTB purposes three wineries that I know the owners of state that they go with fanciful names for the wines they produce from commercial kits (Serenade - Peach/Apricot sweet white wine, Spring Blossoms -Green Apple, sweet white), instead of the Green Apple Riesling, since they can't PROVE to the ttb that it is Riesling. So take all that for what it is worth.

I've only ever had one $80/bottle wine before and that was the restaurant price imported from France and it was from Ben Franklin (or was it Thomas Jefferson's) favorite winery. It was very, very good.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 16, 2018)

So it is possible to come somewhat close. I know it's not possible to make an exact Cliff Lede or Caymus quality, hell if I could get within 50% of the quality, I'd be impressed. My question was only asking which high end kit could come close. If I had to babysit on a fine wine for 2+ years, I want it to be something like this. I've see kits go for $200. Are these rated for what I looking for or are those in the $20 bottle class?


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## tjgaul (Nov 16, 2018)

I made this kit last year around this time . . .https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GZPLB7V/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
*Old Vine Cabernet Sauvignon Red kit - Master Vintner Sommelier Select*
Bottled it 2 weeks ago. I doubt you'd consider it anywhere close to an $80 bottle, but it made a nice dry CA- Napa style Cab. Tweeks - I did an extended maceration and added extra oak. I've had a few bottles of Beaulieu Vineyards basic Napa Cab Sauv (~$22-$25) and I would compare this batch favorably (even at this early age). This is the first wine kit I've made that probably will not be readily shared.


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## tjgaul (Nov 16, 2018)

I made this kit last year around this time . . .https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GZPLB7V/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
*Old Vine Cabernet Sauvignon Red kit - Master Vintner Sommelier Select*
Bottled it 2 weeks ago. I doubt you'd consider it anywhere close to an $80 bottle, but it made a nice dry CA- Napa style Cab. Tweeks - I did an extended maceration and added extra oak. I've had a few bottles of Beaulieu Vineyards basic Napa Cab Sauv (~$22-$25) and I would compare this batch favorably (even at this early age). This is the first wine kit I've made that probably will not be readily shared.


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## Brian55 (Nov 16, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> So it is possible to come somewhat close. I know it's not possible to make an exact Cliff Lede or Caymus quality, hell if I could get within 50% of the quality, I'd be impressed. My question was only asking which high end kit could come close. If I had to babysit on a fine wine for 2+ years, I want it to be something like this. I've see kits go for $200. Are these rated for what I looking for or are those in the $20 bottle class?


We've made hundreds of premium kit wines over the past 8 years. We've also hosted plenty of blind tastings with our wines intermixed with commercial wines of varying price. Kit wines at their best will hold their own against commercial wines into the $20 per bottle range, beyond $30 they start to show their flaws vs. commercial. Once you're into the mid 90 point commercial wines, there's just no comparison.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 16, 2018)

A premium red it at 200 bucks is still a 600 dollar value if you insist on putting a price (of 20 bucks a bottle) on it. You could sneak into a SL district vineyard and swipe 100 lbs of merlot grapes to get your six gallons and turn it into an absolute crapfest. Kits are giving you what winemakers working from whole grapes strive for - batch to batch (vintage to vintage) consistency. You are far less likely to muck up the WE Lodi Cab Sauv than the 100lbs of premium grapes (which you would not be able to get in the first place). Your eighty dollar wines have terroir, don't have overcropping, might have a bunch of dudes harvesting at night by hand with miners lamps on their heads etc etc at the precisely right Brix. As a previous poster said the economics of getting an eighty dollar wine out of a 200 dollar kit is just a non-starter.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 16, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> So it is possible to come somewhat close. I know it's not possible to make an exact Cliff Lede or Caymus quality, hell if I could get within 50% of the quality, I'd be impressed. My question was only asking which high end kit could come close. If I had to babysit on a fine wine for 2+ years, I want it to be something like this. I've see kits go for $200. Are these rated for what I looking for or are those in the $20 bottle class?



@pillswoj already gave what I believe to be the best list of the best kits available. Basically in the $20 class, if everything goes exceedingly well.


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## jgmann67 (Nov 17, 2018)

Nothing new to add here and agree with everything posted. If you want to make an ultra-high-quality, luxury wine, you might want to forget kits altogether and go on a mission to source grapes from the finest vineyards in Napa. Marrying into the Baldacci family wouldn’t hurt, either. [emoji1303]

Even then, it will cost you substantially more than $5/bottle to make. And, you still won’t know what you have for 5-8 years. 

My first kit was an RJS Cellar Series Aussie Cab. It’s been moved to the RJS En Premier label now. With a little extra attention, and a couple years, it was hands down, the best kit Cab I made. Still, I would compare it to a $30 commercial bottle.


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## dmguptill (Nov 17, 2018)

This has been an interesting thread, though what you guys are saying is in line with what I've seen elsewhere. It does raise a question for me: what does it take to get the best out of a kit?


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## Brian55 (Nov 17, 2018)

dmguptill said:


> This has been an interesting thread, though what you guys are saying is in line with what I've seen elsewhere. It does raise a question for me: what does it take to get the best out of a kit?


Buy the best kit you can afford, in a varietal you typically enjoy. Throw away the instructions, then follow the "generally agree upon" suggestions of those who've been at this for years.


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## dmguptill (Nov 18, 2018)

Brian55 said:


> Buy the best kit you can afford, in a varietal you typically enjoy. Throw away the instructions, then follow the "generally agree upon" suggestions of those who've been at this for years.


The generally agreed upon suggestions are what I'm asking about!


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## Brian55 (Nov 18, 2018)

dmguptill said:


> The generally agreed upon suggestions are what I'm asking about!


There are countless threads on this site regarding tweaks, ignoring the time line in the instructions, extended maceration, etc.. Most of them come to some sort of consensus on what works best.


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## pillswoj (Nov 18, 2018)

Most of us that have tried it agree that extended maceration on premium red kits with skins (8 weeks in closed primary on the skins), barrel aging up to 6 Months in a barrel (neutral or close to it for 6 months). Many will add additional fermentation or finishing tannens. If the kit contains ec1118 yeast swap it out for RC 212 or BM 4x4 and don't forget to use yeast nutrients.

That is in general my tweeks for high end reds, search the forums for details on any of those topics.


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## jgmann67 (Nov 19, 2018)

Jeff and I have the same tweaks:

a. Yeast swap.
b. Extended maceration.
c. Tannin in the primary.
d. Increase or swap oak.
e. Tannin in the finish.
f. Age big red wines at least 2 years before digging in.

I don't own a barrel. If I did, that would be my (g). Depending on the flavor profile of the wine, I might consider adding raisins or berries (though I haven't added berries yet).


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## Berry Juice (Nov 19, 2018)

Which high end kit would be best? I have searched the sites, Midwest, LP, MoreWine, etc and no one has anything above $200. Is this as high end as it's gets?


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## Johnd (Nov 19, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Which high end kit would be best? I have searched the sites, Midwest, LP, MoreWine, etc and no one has anything above $200. Is this as high end as it's gets?



Check out the Mosti Mondiale Meglioli kits here: https://www.finevinewines.com/Z_ProdListMeglioli_2019.asp

Looks like they're mostly sold out for 2019's, but if you call, they may be getting some more in and will reserve one for your. These kits are a full 23 liters of pure juice never from concentrate (purportedly) and the reds typically come with really nice grape packs and good quality oak. I've made a number of them over the years and my opinion is that they are excellent, though a bit costly. On all of the red kits, plan on bulk aging close to a year before bottling, bottle aging at least one year, they continue to improve for years afterwards.


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## Brian55 (Nov 19, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Which high end kit would be best? I have searched the sites, Midwest, LP, MoreWine, etc and no one has anything above $200. Is this as high end as it's gets?


http://www.finevinewines.com/ carries Mosti Mondiale. Their Meglioli and All Juice Masters Edition are as high end as kits get, as far as I'm aware.


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## heatherd (Nov 19, 2018)

I think you're right @Brian55 about the Mosti Mondiali kits being at the highest end: some are $224 on the finevinewine page. The RJS RQ's are up there at $170ish.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 19, 2018)

Right on!![emoji106] Now we're finally getting there!


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## jgmann67 (Nov 19, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Which high end kit would be best?



Wars have been started by questions like this.


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## pillswoj (Nov 19, 2018)

I have a MM Meglioli Amarone on order, I think it is for March 2019, it will be my first Meglioli kit. I currently have a MM All Juice Cab Sauv that I used a skin pack on bulk aging. I am hoping these are impressive when done.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 19, 2018)

So Mosti Mondiali is the a league all their own. Competition is thin at the top.


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## Johnd (Nov 19, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Right on!![emoji106] Now we're finally getting there!



Beware, you’ll still not be making a WA 93!! I’ve done some meglioli kits using the skins from an all grape batch, real skins from a lightly pressed, like sized, same varietal batch of grape wine, which, in my opinion, is the best tweak available. Pretty good wine, but not over 90.


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## Tom Martin (Nov 19, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> Most of us that have tried it agree that extended maceration on premium red kits with skins (8 weeks in closed primary on the skins), barrel aging up to 6 Months in a barrel (neutral or close to it for 6 months). Many will add additional fermentation or finishing tannens. If the kit contains ec1118 yeast swap it out for RC 212 or BM 4x4 and don't forget to use yeast nutrients.
> 
> That is in general my tweeks for high end reds, search the forums for details on any of those topics.



What other yeast swaps are recommended for wine kits?
I will plan on getting some RC 212 the last 2 kits I made both came with EC-1118 I think the RJs Select CA red blend has the EC-1118 as well.


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## Brian55 (Nov 19, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> I have a MM Meglioli Amarone on order, I think it is for March 2019, it will be my first Meglioli kit. I currently have a MM All Juice Cab Sauv that I used a skin pack on bulk aging. I am hoping these are impressive when done.


They are, but they definitely require a bit more aging than the 18l kits you're used to. These really don't start to come around until about the 3 year mark, unlike the 18 month to 2 years you're used to with the typical 18l premium kits.


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## Brian55 (Nov 19, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> So Mosti Mondiali is the a league all their own. Competition is thin at the top.


There isn't much competition in the premium wine kit market, as most people deviate from kits into fresh grapes once they realize there's only so far a kit will take you.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 19, 2018)

Ok, maybe I should start looking into grapes.,
Any suggestions?


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## Brian55 (Nov 19, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Ok, maybe I should start looking into grapes.,
> Any suggestions?


Same advise as kits: Buy the best grapes you can afford, in a varietal you typically enjoy. Follow the agreed upon advice via the wine making forums.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 19, 2018)

Will do..


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## Ajmassa (Nov 20, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Ok, maybe I should start looking into grapes.,
> Any suggestions?



I can’t believe it’s taken almost 50 posts to get to ‘using grapes is the best route to try and make the highest quality wine possible” ! 
Suggestions? Yes. Dive into actual research. No folded up instructions are included with the grapes. Lots of action/reaction needed. Acid/tannin adjustments based on levels. Lab testing equipment. Crush/press equipment. $$ invested. Time needed. Learning as you go. 
Mistakes are needed too. And knowledge gained from em. Desire to keep improving. Motivation to locate best fruit available. (Frozen must also an option for home delivery any time as well) Patience to allow it to do its thing. 
If your serious about making a high quality wine then a passion is needed to work to keep trying to get there. And there’s lots of tools available online to help with it. And to paraphrase Stephen Tyler— “it’s about journey not just the destination!”


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## Berry Juice (Nov 20, 2018)

Nicely stated, where were you 49 posts ago,,, this answers almost everything. 
Guess I'll be hanging around the grape section of this forum 
Thanks gents


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## 1d10t (Nov 20, 2018)

There is a certain fallacy in using price to determine the quality. LD Carlson isn't too good with their IT and especially web design. I tried to get an electronic list so I could do a website for a friend's homebrew shop. They were cc'd in a discussion I was having with the WE people about getting an electronic catalog that I could use a script to help create the site. Way too many items to key in and do cut and paste stuff on. LD chided WE for not having that available for me. When I asked them for the same thing all communications ended. 

That said LD's site isn't very well designed. If you use the front end you have to log in to get their catalog so it is 'protected' from consumer snooping. If you use Google? Not so much. Take a gander at the wholesale price that LD is charging and you know they are making a profit on top of what charge.
https://storefront.ldcarlson.com/storefrontCommerce/downloadFile.do?fileName=Chapter 4.pdf


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## Ajmassa (Nov 20, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Nicely stated, where were you 49 posts ago,,, this answers almost everything.
> Guess I'll be hanging around the grape section of this forum
> Thanks gents



I was there. But you had the steering wheel of the convo! Seemed like a “kit only” type thing. I’m Glad tho. Some nice info in there. And never knew about those Mondiali higher end kits. And now i [we] do. So all good!
For the grapes tho- having this forum to lean on is huge since info is essentially infinite. Especially when your not in any winemaking cliques elsewhere. And the manuals from morewine.com are great too.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 20, 2018)

Super cool info. I will still try the Mondiali just to taste the outcome while learning more about the fresh grapes route... Thanks again for everyones input. I'm sure I will have more questions about that process as well. I'll save those for another thread


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## Brian55 (Nov 20, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Super cool info. I will still try the Mondiali just to taste the outcome while learning more about the fresh grapes route... Thanks again for everyones input. I'm sure I will have more questions about that process as well. I'll save those for another thread


Better place your order today. Just received notice that FVW is closing and only taking orders until the end of the day today.


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## Berry Juice (Nov 20, 2018)

Sorry, who is FWV?


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## jgmann67 (Nov 20, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Nicely stated, where were you 49 posts ago,,, this answers almost everything.
> Guess I'll be hanging around the grape section of this forum
> Thanks gents



See post #13 and #26.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 20, 2018)

FWV - finewinevines.com


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## Tom Martin (Nov 20, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> FWV - finewinevines.com



I just got the following email from them that they are closing and no more online orders after tonight??
The Store is Closing

*Effective November 30th 2018
Fine Fine Wines and Dallas Home are closing.*
This has been a tough decision for Janna, her family, and the staff here at Fine Vine Wines and Dallas Home Brew. George sold his first wine kit March 3rd, 2003. Rick has worked for George for 10 years and I, Brian, have worked for George for the last 9 years.
George has had a large impact on a lot of people's lives, both customers and former employees. He has helped thousands of people get into the hobby of wine making through his advice and love of wine. He has had customers that have started as amature home wine makers that have gone on to open wineries. He has had customers and employees that have moved from home brewers to professional brewers. He enjoyed watching people grow with the hobby and took great pride in their growth.
His loss on November 2nd is a large part of the reason we made the decision to close, but not the only reason. The entire home wine and beer making hobby has been in a slump for well over a year. Many have noticed that it has taken us longer to get stock back in than it used to and sales or lack thereof have been part of the reason. George and I had talked about this possibility even before he went in for his surgery.
I would like to thank every one of our customers on behalf of George, his family and the Staff here at Fine Vine Wines. I know George, and the rest of us, have enjoyed the 15+ years helping everyone make the best wine and beer they possibly could.
Brian, Jana and Rick


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## porkchopmessiah (Nov 20, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> Ok, maybe I should start looking into grapes.,
> Any suggestions?


possibly buckets are a good starting point for you....that's where im at now....started with fruit wines which generally are bottled in a 6 to 8 months..now im onto buckets of juice, wont know how that turns out till this coming fall though...


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## Berry Juice (Nov 21, 2018)

I'll look into it. Thanks
I've just scored me my first 
Amarone Global Cuvee from FVW. Kinda wierd to make a wine that I have never tasted before..


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## pillswoj (Nov 21, 2018)

Berry Juice said:


> I'll look into it. Thanks
> I've just scored me my first
> Amarone Global Cuvee from FVW. Kinda wierd to make a wine that I have never tasted before..



All that talk about BIG Reds and you went for a 12 L kit????


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## Berry Juice (Nov 21, 2018)

Sorry, I had a weak moment because it was FVW last day. Thought I'd throw them a bone to help close out their business.


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## Regmata (Nov 24, 2018)

Probably more along the lines of a $20 bottle class, again...if lucky. Still a great deal though. 30 bottles that would sell for about $20 is $600 worth of wine for the cost of a kit. If you go to labelpeelers.com you can get high end Wine Expert Eclipse kit mentioned above for around $125 delivered. 

It is more about the hobby and playing around with how you make your wine to see what you can come up with than anything else. If you want consistent, $80 bottles of wine...I would buy them already there.


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