# Kieselsol & Chitosan



## rebusify (Oct 14, 2020)

So what do you do after 48 hours when Kieselsol and Chitosan hasn't cleared the wine? I added Kieselsol and waited 5 minutes and then added the Chitosan and 48 hours later it's still cloudy. Any suggestions besides filtering? Just don't want to filter but I could if I had to. Thoughts?


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## Johnd (Oct 14, 2020)

rebusify said:


> So what do you do after 48 hours when Kieselsol and Chitosan hasn't cleared the wine? I added Kieselsol and waited 5 minutes and then added the Chitosan and 48 hours later it's still cloudy. Any suggestions besides filtering? Just don't want to filter but I could if I had to. Thoughts?


What type of wine are you making and what additives have been used to date?

One thing that can prevent the solids from dropping out of solution is the presence of CO2 gas. If you've not done a thorough job at degassing, this could be the problem. You could also be experiencing a protein haze, which is usually prevented by the use of bentonite used in alcoholic fermentation, or it could be a pectin haze which can be knocked out with pectic enzyme.

Maybe we can help narrow it down if you'll tell us exactly what's been done so far............


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## rebusify (Oct 14, 2020)

Making pinot noir rose and racked at .996. Degassed for 5 minutes then added sulfites and sorbate. Then added Kieselsol and then waited 5 minutes and then added chitosan. I did that yesterday so I'm less than 24 hours.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 14, 2020)

My thoughts are that you aren't fully degassed and I thought the directions for Kieselsol and Chitosan say to wait 1 hour up to 24 before adding the second part? A wine with CO2 in it won't clear and a second thing, you can filter a cloudy wine, but it tends to just clog up filters.


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## rebusify (Oct 14, 2020)

Based on kits I've done in the past all the instructions say wait 5 minutes before adding the chitosan. So I didn't and maybe I should have waited the 24 hours but at this point is filtering my only option or can I wait a few days and do another round but this time wait the 24 hours?


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## cmason1957 (Oct 14, 2020)

I think you will need to verify that all the CO2 is out, put some in a hydrometer test tube, cover with your hand and shake. My guess is you will get quite a bit more out, until that is removed (either through time or agitation and lots of agitation) it won't clear. Then once the CO2 is removed, yes you can add more K & S (DualFine).


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## rebusify (Oct 14, 2020)

So this is pretty much secondary fermentation. I do have airlock on and a bubble every 30 seconds or so, so I know there's some fermentation going on so I'm confident of not allowing oxygen in. Just concerned about the clearing but I will let it sit for a couple weeks now before I look at it again. Thinking about cold stabilizing in a couple weeks for about 3 weeks so maybe at that time I can check the clearing and proceed with Kieselsol and Chitosan?


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## sour_grapes (Oct 14, 2020)

Its probably just outgassing, not fermenting. But if you _thought_ it was still fermenting, why the heck were you trying to clear it? 

But, yes, check in on the clearing progress in a few weeks.


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## salcoco (Oct 14, 2020)

make sure wine is at least 70deg F for this fining. I would suggest try again in three weeks


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## rebusify (Oct 14, 2020)

Because .996 was my reading for 3 days.


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## heatherd (Oct 14, 2020)

@rebusify I've had a similar issue in the past if the wine isn't degassed enough. Maybe give it a splash rack and stir to see if this helps. Then you can either give it time to clear or try the suplerkleer kc again in three weeks as Sal suggests.


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## MTJoeT (Oct 15, 2020)

Give it time. I always give my wines at least a week (sometimes 2 weeks) to outgas and clarify, I do add them just a few minutes apart. Of course you could skip the Kieselsol and Chitosan and just wait, time is the best way to clear your wine.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 15, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> I thought the directions for Kieselsol and Chitosan say to wait 1 hour up to 24 before adding the second part?


Recent Winexpert and RJ Spagnol directions say to wait 24 hours. Some years back the instructions said to wait 5 minutes, and other vendors may be still saying 5 minutes.

What I've read says 1 to 24 hours. For recent kits I've degassed in a primary and added kieselsol. Put the lid on and wait an hour, then add the chitosan. Rack back into the carboy. A Cabernet and a Chardonnay both cleared fine.

23 liter kit instructions typically say to use a 23 liter carboy, so there is room to stir in the chitosan the next day.

I have all 19's, so the carboy is filled plus other containers. If I wait 24 hours, I'd have to rack again to get all the wine fined. Since the wine is continuing to emit CO2 for a while after degassing, leaving the wine in a covered primary is (to me) an acceptable risk.


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## Paulietivo (Oct 15, 2020)

Why the rush? I know it's a kit but be patient. It has to be fully de gassed like the others have said. 
I have run into a problem when adding chitosan even after 24 hours of kieselsol. I have had wine crystal clear after kieselsol and then adding chitosan made it cloudy. I have remedied that by adding another kieselsol and it returned to crystal clear. Now if its clear after kieselsol than no need for chitosan addition. Just the way I do it.


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## Johnd (Oct 15, 2020)

When I was still doing kits, and still using fining agents, I'd vacuum degas my wines for a few minutes after fermentation was over, which is the most effective and quickest way to degas that I've ever found. I'd add the kieselsol and stir in well for a few minutes, then add the chitosan and stir well for a few minutes. As the wine was swirling around in the carboy, chunks of lightly colored lees would start to appear in the wine and settle as the wine was still swirling. Within a few hours there would be a substantial layer of lees, which would compact over the next few weeks. I'd always see a secondary settling line of clarity in the carboy during those two weeks, the clear and very dark wine appearing first in the neck and working its way down the carboy to the bottom, a mesmerizing process. I just clear with time now and don't even pay any attention to wine sitting in carboys for months at a time.


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## WBW61 (Oct 15, 2020)

Paulietivo said:


> Why the rush? I know it's a kit but be patient. It has to be fully de gassed like the others have said.
> I have run into a problem when adding chitosan even after 24 hours of kieselsol. I have had wine crystal clear after kieselsol and then adding chitosan made it cloudy. I have remedied that by adding another kieselsol and it returned to crystal clear. Now if its clear after kieselsol than no need for chitosan addition. Just the way I do it.


At 5 weeks into a 4 week Island Mist kit which wasn't clearing I went through a second round of kieselsol and chitosan. 24 hours after adding the kieselsol I noticed substantial clearing. But being a fanatic for following directions I added the chitosan anyway. It's now been cloudy for 48 hours with no signs of clearing! Wish I would have read this post earlier, I would have stopped after adding the kieselsol!


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## Paulietivo (Oct 16, 2020)

WBW61 said:


> At 5 weeks into a 4 week Island Mist kit which wasn't clearing I went through a second round of kieselsol and chitosan. 24 hours after adding the kieselsol I noticed substantial clearing. But being a fanatic for following directions I added the chitosan anyway. It's now been cloudy for 48 hours with no signs of clearing! Wish I would have read this post earlier, I would have stopped after adding the kieselsol!


Lol! I've been in your shoes before. Some places sell kieselsol by itself. Rinse repeat?








Kieselsol - 15 mL







www.homebrewing.org


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## winemaker81 (Oct 16, 2020)

@WBW61, I've made 40+ kits and have used kieselsol/chitosan in non-kit wines, and have never experienced a problem. Considering the proven effectiveness of the combination, I question if the problem is not chitosan. Since it's a Fun Wine with fruit juice, you might add pectic enzyme. A kit should not need it, but it's a cheap potential solution.


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## rebusify (Oct 24, 2020)

Johnd said:


> When I was still doing kits, and still using fining agents, I'd vacuum degas my wines for a few minutes after fermentation was over, which is the most effective and quickest way to degas that I've ever found. I'd add the kieselsol and stir in well for a few minutes, then add the chitosan and stir well for a few minutes. As the wine was swirling around in the carboy, chunks of lightly colored lees would start to appear in the wine and settle as the wine was still swirling. Within a few hours there would be a substantial layer of lees, which would compact over the next few weeks. I'd always see a secondary settling line of clarity in the carboy during those two weeks, the clear and very dark wine appearing first in the neck and working its way down the carboy to the bottom, a mesmerizing process. I just clear with time now and don't even pay any attention to wine sitting in carboys for months at a time.



Would you add the same amount of kieselsol the second time? I'm a couple weeks since adding the kieselsol/chitosan so should I wait a few more weeks then add the kieselsol? What amount would you add the second time to 6 gallons?


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## Johnd (Oct 25, 2020)

rebusify said:


> Would you add the same amount of kieselsol the second time? I'm a couple weeks since adding the kieselsol/chitosan so should I wait a few more weeks then add the kieselsol? What amount would you add the second time to 6 gallons?


When I’ve had to reapply, it’s always been the chitosan that was underdosed. Before adding any clarifiers, make sure your wine is totally free of CO2, is kept in the mid 70’s, and you’ve given it ample time to clear. Too much fining can have a detrimental effect on your wine, so don’t overdo it!!


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## Scooter68 (Oct 25, 2020)

I've only been making wine for just over 5 years (just under 50 batches) and on this site about 5 years, but; one thing I've seen on this site is that folks tend to follow kit instructions like they the y are a wine makers version of the Ten Commandments. 

To me, personally, a kit just provides a one stop/ one purchase means of getting all the things you need for a wine. The instructions are by NO MEANS to be followed blindly or rigidly. The only thing gained by rigidly following the instructions is it provides you a means to claim that the kit failed even when you followed instructions - if the seller accepts that claim, you are still going to have wasted your time and effort .
Others may have other issues but the primary reasons I won't ever buy a kit are:

First - TIME - The timelines in kit instructions are way way too rigid and seem to assume that the yeast and additives they provide also read and heed those instructions. A ferment may last 2-3 days or perhaps even 2-3 weeks it all depends on a variety of factors.
Second - Kits and the additives in them can age out, for instance, if the potassium sorbate in the kit is more than 6-10 months old it is probably not very effective. This results in wines not clearing, or ferments possibly restarting when back sweetened with ferment-able sugar. Unless an aged out kit is on a super good sale price... it's not worth the trouble.

Having said that - A kit can be a good way to get started but I really don't think it's going to make you a better wine maker. Maybe a kit is a means to obtain varieities you might not otherwise find but I'd want to be certain of the kit age and price (Vs buying the juice as a standalone product.)


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## Kayts (Dec 2, 2020)

Not a newby but I think I screwed up with Chitosan. Have 3 carboys going that I siphoned on Tues. had 1 Chitosan to add yesterday the others were added same day as I siphoned. What happens if I add a second Chitosan to a wine by accident. With this covid we have family living with us and I never market my carboys with which wine, and I know I added it to wrong wine.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 2, 2020)

@Kayts, I don't believe you'll have any serious problems. Some fining agents can induce negative effects if overdosed, but I've not seen anything regarding chitosan.

I print labels on plain paper and attach to a looped string with clear tape, and the label is large enough I can write brief notes. I do this even if I have only 1 wine in production, as it's a habit. Better too many labels than too few ....


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## bstnh1 (Dec 3, 2020)

I label mine with post-it note stickies. It's too easy to mix up 2 reds or 2 whites.


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## Kayts (Dec 3, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> @Kayts, I don't believe you'll have any serious problems. Some fining agents can induce negative effects if overdosed, but I've not seen anything regarding chitosan.
> 
> I print labels on plain paper and attach to a looped string with clear tape, and the label is large enough I can write brief notes. I do this even if I have only 1 wine in production, as it's a habit. Better too many labels than too few ....


 

I usually put on the post-it-notes but someone had move them and I got side tracked...bet I don't do that again. Need to get in better habits.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 3, 2020)

Kayts said:


> I usually put on the post-it-notes but someone had move them and I got side tracked...bet I don't do that again. Need to get in better habits.


I've tried various methods, but the label on a string has (so far) been the hardest one for me to screw up.


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## Bts (Dec 3, 2020)

The kit I'm doing now has 2 packets each of chitosan and kieselsol, and it says to add all 4 of them alternating, so I wouldn't worry about adding an extra packet of Chitosan.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 3, 2020)

Bts said:


> The kit I'm doing now has 2 packets each of chitosan and kieselsol, and it says to add all 4 of them alternating


What is the timing for the additions? Kits I've made specified adding the chitosan any where from 5 minutes to 24 hours after the kieselsol. Some have more than one packet of either, but specify to add the like ones together. I've not seen one that alternated and based upon what *I* know about how kieselsol & chitosan works, that doesn't make sense. [Which doesn't mean that it doesn't work -- it means that I don't understand.  ]

What brand is the kit and what size are the packets? You've made me REALLY curious about this one.


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## Venatorscribe (Dec 3, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> I've only been making wine for just over 5 years (just under 50 batches) and on this site about 5 years, but; one thing I've seen on this site is that folks tend to follow kit instructions like they the y are a wine makers version of the Ten Commandments.
> 
> To me, personally, a kit just provides a one stop/ one purchase means of getting all the things you need for a wine. The instructions are by NO MEANS to be followed blindly or rigidly. The only thing gained by rigidly following the instructions is it provides you a means to claim that the kit failed even when you followed instructions - if the seller accepts that claim, you are still going to have wasted your time and effort .
> Others may have other issues but the primary reasons I won't ever buy a kit are:
> ...


I agree. I’ve made a few kits and have never bothered with the instructions. I use the kit as a source of juice. Then work from first principles and proceed as normal to make wine. Using my various gadgets to assess everything as it proceeds. I don’t use finings and I don’t use their oak powder or yeast. Preferring to buy my own chemicals, and a specific yeast of my choosing along with my own oak chips and staves. The odds and ends that come with the kit don’t get wasted. I’ll work my way through these when making my summer fruit and botanical wines and finally I use any clay based finings mixed into soil for various small potted plants.


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## Chinova (Dec 7, 2020)

Johnd said:


> When I’ve had to reapply, it’s always been the chitosan that was underdosed. Before adding any clarifiers, make sure your wine is totally free of CO2, is kept in the mid 70’s, and you’ve given it ample time to clear. Too much fining can have a detrimental effect on your wine, so don’t overdo it!!


Johnd, I have a question. 
I work for a company that is selling mushroom based chitosan for the food industry. We have not tested it in wine but believe it should work to fine the wine and replace sulphites. IT is a 5% solution, vegan certified and is not from shellfish. I am not soliciting business, I just thought I would reach out with a new development to help the community. If your interested, I can have a 100 ml sample sent to you for free. Let me know.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 7, 2020)

Chinova said:


> Johnd, I have a question.
> I work for a company that is selling mushroom based chitosan for the food industry. We have not tested it in wine but believe it should work to fine the wine and replace sulphites. IT is a 5% solution, vegan certified and is not from shellfish. I am not soliciting business, I just thought I would reach out with a new development to help the community. If your interested, I can have a 100 ml sample sent to you for free. Let me know.



That took my memory back to this post: Vegans and Chitosan


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## Johnd (Dec 7, 2020)

Chinova said:


> Johnd, I have a question.
> I work for a company that is selling mushroom based chitosan for the food industry. We have not tested it in wine but believe it should work to fine the wine and replace sulphites. IT is a 5% solution, vegan certified and is not from shellfish. I am not soliciting business, I just thought I would reach out with a new development to help the community. If your interested, I can have a 100 ml sample sent to you for free. Let me know.


It sounds interesting, but I'm not sure that I understand your product. Chitosan is a wine clarifier that is typically used in conjunction with kieselsol, and together, they bind and precipitate positively charged and negatively charged particles from the wine, inducing clearing more quickly than time clears wine.

Sulfite has a completely different function, it is and oxygen scavenger that prevents oxidation in wines, as well as an anti-microbial agent, that prevents unwanted organisms from taking a foothold in the wine. It is also used as a sanitizer for wine equipment, for its anti-microbial functions.

Are you suggesting that this mushroom based formula will both clear wine as well as prevent oxidation and inhibit microbial activity? If so, it sounds interesting. If it could also give my wine a bit of an earthy tone with some hints of portabello, you may be on to something!!


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## Paul B (Sep 8, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @WBW61, I've made 40+ kits and have used kieselsol/chitosan in non-kit wines, and have never experienced a problem. Considering the proven effectiveness of the combination, I question if the problem is not chitosan. Since it's a Fun Wine with fruit juice, you might add pectic enzyme. A kit should not need it, but it's a cheap potential solution.


HI: I am brand new to wine making. Not using a kit. I decided to make 1 gallon batches using the same grapes, but different Strains. I just racked my first batch. I have chosen Dualfine for a clarifier. At what point do I add the 2 products. Also it says that it is for 5 - 6 Gallons. Do I portion each product and use less in each Gallon?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 8, 2021)

Paul B said:


> At what point do I add the 2 products.


Welcome to WMT!

Before using any fining agent, fermentation must be complete (SG <= 0.998 and not changing for at least 3 days), and the wine must be degassed.

Yes, you should divide the PKG by 5, or at least 4. With most fining agents, over dosing will strip the wine, removing more than just sediment. I have not heard of this with K&C, but I would exercise caution. Over fining a wine is not fixable.


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## Paul B (Sep 8, 2021)

Thank you: for your prompt reply:
I just went to secondary caribou today SG .999. I will monitor for a week or so and make sure there is no further activity. I have an air lock and stopper at the top of the gallon container. I have 3 more 1gallon batches that I just punched yeast today. This is a fun hobby. I did a small taste test before I transferred to secondary. I think it’s going to be a nice dry red.


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## mikewatkins727 (Sep 9, 2021)

Welcome @Paul B. You will find a lot of help here. I also started off with one gallon batches until I found one that I wanted to do 3 gallon batch. Still do one gallon runs for experimental trials.


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