# Using FastFerment Conical - CONFUSED!



## JoeCal1952 (May 27, 2015)

Hello all - I have been posting a lot about this FastFerment conical vessel and the more I use it, the more confused I get. As we know, all wines are not the same to make. I am now making a Sangiovese and am confused as to know when secondary fermentation is complete? The primary fermentation finished in 6 days. With this unit you don't rack to a carboy, but you remove a collection ball and separate the yeast from your wine. OK - having done that, how do I know when the secondary is done? Hydrometer is reading about 0.992 and there is no more action in the airlock. Some say you don't have to see bubbling in the airlock and secondary may not be complete. So, how do I know? 
Since there is a lot of headspace using this vessel, I am now afraid to open the lid and test the SG because I feel that would allow for whatever Co2 is in there to escape and O2 would then spoil this wine? I haven't spoiled a wine yet but I am still confused and want to do things right. Can I check the SG without worry at this point? If it is at 0.990 should I degas and bottle? Aging with this unit is really done in the bottle. You aren't supposed to keep the wine in the conical too long...Any advice???


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## cmason1957 (May 27, 2015)

If your sg is at 0.992, then you are done.

The big headspace you point out is one of the reasons I have not purchased one of these for making wine. I am leery about that. I think they would be fine for beer, but since I bulk age for a significant period of time. But that is just me, not saying they are good or bad.


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## DoctorCAD (May 27, 2015)

Can't you draw a sample from the bottom of the cone? That would get you your hydrometer test and not introduce any air.

I also assumed (possibly incorrectly) that since you never disturb the wine that no air is in the headspace due to residual CO2 from fermentation. There's no way for air to get in there, correct??? Heck, I was more interested in how long it would take to degass with that layer of CO2 on top...


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## richmke (May 27, 2015)

If I were using a FastFerment, here is what I would do:

1) Keep the valve closed, and ferment during the normal "primary" time. Stir daily to keep the yeast suspended.
2) At SG 1.01, give a good stir, open the valve, and stop stirring. (end Primary phase, and start Secondary phase).
3) Wait 5 days, close valve, remove ball, and drain to Carboy. Test SG at this time.
4) Resume normal fermenting process.

Note: If you have skins, put them in a bag so they do get stuck in the valve.


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## Julie (May 27, 2015)

When you say "secondary fermentation" are you putting your wine thru an MLF? So many new members on here believe when you transfer from the primary to the secondary vessel this means secondary fermentation. 

You should be fine to take a hydrometer reading, the amount of time you would have it open would not ruin your wine.


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## JoeCal1952 (May 27, 2015)

Julie said:


> When you say "secondary fermentation" are you putting your wine thru an MLF? So many new members on here believe when you transfer from the primary to the secondary vessel this means secondary fermentation.
> 
> You should be fine to take a hydrometer reading, the amount of time you would have it open would not ruin your wine.



I may have used wrong wording saying "secondary fermentation". What I mean is after the primary fermentation is complete, you remove the collection ball from the vessel and either dump it or harvest the yeast. When you put the ball back on and open the valve, that is the same thing as transferring from your primary fermenter to a carboy... MLF? A term I do not know yet...


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## JoeCal1952 (May 27, 2015)

DoctorCAD said:


> Can't you draw a sample from the bottom of the cone? That would get you your hydrometer test and not introduce any air.
> 
> I also assumed (possibly incorrectly) that since you never disturb the wine that no air is in the headspace due to residual CO2 from fermentation. There's no way for air to get in there, correct??? Heck, I was more interested in how long it would take to degass with that layer of CO2 on top...



I can't take a reading from the bottom. I use a wine thief and go from there. From what I am reading, even when you use a carboy your wine is subject to O2 anyway.....It takes me 3 minutes to degas. 1 minute for the first 2 packets, and a good 2 minute stir using a drill and a paddle that hooks up to the electric drill. Yes - you are correct that I haven't disturbed the wine and at this point the head space is all Co2.


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## JoeCal1952 (May 27, 2015)

cmason1957 said:


> If your sg is at 0.992, then you are done.
> 
> The big headspace you point out is one of the reasons I have not purchased one of these for making wine. I am leery about that. I think they would be fine for beer, but since I bulk age for a significant period of time. But that is just me, not saying they are good or bad.



I was a bit afraid to buy this because of the head space as well, but from what I am learning here, The fastferment is designed to get it done and age in the bottle. My first 2 batches I actually left it in the vessel for 6 weeks and nothing went wrong....I just wish they provided detailed instructions. Each time I make wine I try something new and so far all products are darn good but still young.
So, what you are saying is if my SG is at 0.992 and I am done, I should go ahead and degas and get this in bottles since I don't age it long in this vessel, correct?


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## richmke (May 27, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> So, what you are saying is if my SG is at 0.992 and I am done, I should go ahead and degas and get this in bottles since I don't age it long in this vessel, correct?



At 0.992 it is done fermenting. But, that does not mean it is ready to bottle. However, it is ready to go into a carboy for long-term aging (degassing, clearing, mellowing, etc.)


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## JoeCal1952 (May 27, 2015)

richmke said:


> At 0.992 it is done fermenting. But, that does not mean it is ready to bottle. However, it is ready to go into a carboy for long-term aging (degassing, clearing, mellowing, etc.)



richmike, that's where I get confused a bit. According to "some" directions I read on using this vessel - it states that the purpose of the collection ball is to eliminate the carboy. In the directions on the box of juice, it says after primary is done, wait ten days and see where you are with SG. 
It isn't even ten days and now the SG is 0.990. So if I don't use a carboy, and this vessel isn't really great for secondary and aging and mellowing, I guess I should degas and let it sit for an additional 8 days to clear according to the directions on the juice box, Then bottle...???


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## richmke (May 27, 2015)

Because of the headspace, the Fastferment is only good for ..... Fermenting.

Once fermenting is done, you need to get it into a carboy for long-term aging. The ball is good to collect lees to avoid having to go from Primary fermenting in the pail to secondary fermenting in a carboy.

The Fastferment is good for primary and secondary, and that's about it for winemaking purposes.

Now, for beer making purposes, once you are done fermenting and letting it settle, you can skip the carboy and go to bottling.


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## JoeCal1952 (May 27, 2015)

richmke said:


> Because of the headspace, the Fastferment is only good for ..... Fermenting.
> 
> Once fermenting is done, you need to get it into a carboy for long-term aging. The ball is good to collect lees to avoid having to go from Primary fermenting in the pail to secondary fermenting in a carboy.
> 
> ...



I get your point....Well, I have to continue using this the way I have been and let the aging be done in the bottle as the manufacturer states. I don't have access to a carboy, and since this wine is done fermenting, the next step is degassing and waiting a few days and then bottle. I have no choice. Last question I would have for you is when degassing the wine, I guess I remove the collection ball or at least close the valve as not to bring up any sediment already collected? Sorry I bought this, but my wines have tasted fine. Just that I really would like to know the procedure when not using a carboy. It supposedly was made for beer or wine but it isn't good for wine from what everyone tells me.


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## richmke (May 27, 2015)

I think it is fine for wine, but only for the first few weeks (which is about as long as beer takes until it is bottled). I would use it instead of my pail for a primary.

What wines are you making?

Yes, close the valve before degassing so you don't stir up sediment.

Close the valve
Dump the sediment in the ball
Degass
Add your clarifying agents, kmeta
If backsweetening, add sorbate and sweetener
Mix some more
Open the valve
Let it sit another week or two
When clear, close the valve
Remove the sediment in the ball
Bottle what is left

And, when you have more money, buy some carboys to allow for long-term aging.


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## JoeCal1952 (May 28, 2015)

richmke said:


> I think it is fine for wine, but only for the first few weeks (which is about as long as beer takes until it is bottled). I would use it instead of my pail for a primary.
> 
> What wines are you making?
> 
> ...



I have made 2 batches of Barolo or what they call Nebbiolo, and now working on the Sangiovese. I sampled the Barolo's after i month in the bottle and they were quite good, but from what I understand, bulk aging is best for a lot of reasons, one being when aging in the bottle, each bottle can vary in quality/taste. I have one friend that told me to get a can of Co2 and after degassing, purge the headspace with that and you can walk away from it for as long as you want? Anyway, I will get a carboy eventually. It isn't the money, it's a 75 mile drive to the supply store and I hate to have it shipped.
Thanks for all your help. This wine will be OK but I think I will get the carboy.
I really think the worst thing about this FastFerment is the fact that you lose 48 ounces of wine. One pint when your primary is done, another pint before degassing, and another when you degas. Unless I just close off the valve and degas without removing the second pint and then open the valve and see how much it will clear that way without dumping a third pint?


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## richmke (May 28, 2015)

JoeCal1952 said:


> I really think the worst thing about this FastFerment is the fact that you lose 48 ounces of wine. One pint when your primary is done, another pint before degassing, and another when you degas. Unless I just close off the valve and degas without removing the second pint and then open the valve and see how much it will clear that way without dumping a third pint?



You can "rack off" the wine from within the ball that is sitting on top of the sediment. Something like the All-in-one wine pump would make that easy.

Or, you can pour it into a tall glass, and let it settle, and then drink that as your sample.


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## JoeCal1952 (May 28, 2015)

richmke said:


> You can "rack off" the wine from within the ball that is sitting on top of the sediment. Something like the All-in-one wine pump would make that easy.
> 
> Or, you can pour it into a tall glass, and let it settle, and then drink that as your sample.



I have that pump and that's exactly what I will do. Either drink it or cook with it until I get the Carboy.

Thanks a million! I'll post back and let you know how this turns out.
Have a good day!


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## DryFly (Dec 27, 2015)

Any more info on this device? I am considering purchasing one but am curious about the headspace as well.


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## NorCal (Dec 27, 2015)

Joe since you have the all-in-one pump and if you were to get two carboys, you will be a winemaking machine. The AIO does an excellent job of racking, transferring, but the biggest one is degassing the wine. If you let the wine clear and age in a carboy, before bottling you can avoid sediment in the bottle or the potential of residual CO2.


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## 4score (Dec 28, 2015)

Hi Joe,

Earlier you said you weren't familiar with MLF. MLF is Malo-Lactic Fermentation. This is where tart-tasting malic acid, naturally present in grape must, is converted to softer-tasting lactic acid. Malic acid also has a sharper (unripe apples) acidity, while the acidity of lactic acid is softer (more milk-like). There are considerable losses of primary (fruit) aromas during the MLF, but many by-products are formed, such as diacetyl, which adds a buttery richness to the wine.

Usually MLF is done after primary fermentation (some do it concurrently with primary), while SO2 levels are low. A MLF bacteria is added to the wine to convert the acids. Unlike alcoholic fermentation, MLF usually takes 4 to 8 weeks to complete.

Most red wines are put through MLF. Some whites use MLF as well if they want that softer feel and a buttery component.


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 28, 2015)

DryFly said:


> Any more info on this device? I am considering purchasing one but am curious about the headspace as well.



If I'm not mistaken, the OP eventually sold his FastFerment unit. As other posters have mentioned, it is good only for fermentation and not longer term storage.


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## grapeman (Dec 29, 2015)

Unless you are in a hurry for the wine. I would transfer it to a carboy for all further work with it. It can be degassed, monitored for any further clearing, etc while in the carboy.


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## JoeCal1952 (Dec 30, 2015)

grapeman said:


> Unless you are in a hurry for the wine. I would transfer it to a carboy for all further work with it. It can be degassed, monitored for any further clearing, etc while in the carboy.



Hi all - Sorry I didn't get back to ya'll quicker, but my computer was down and had to re-build it and now saw these posts. I haven't sold my Fast Ferment as of yet, but I am no longer making wine either. Stuff happens in life and I really don't have the time. I have produced some really good wines with the Fast Ferment and did so by transferring the wine into a carboy for longer aging. If anybody is interested in the Fermenter I still would sell it but it is hard to ship. If I ever get back to wine making this will be the place I will come to for help!


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## Billpizzaiolo (Jan 12, 2016)

richmke said:


> If I were using a FastFerment, here is what I would do:
> 
> 1) Keep the valve closed, and ferment during the normal "primary" time. Stir daily to keep the yeast suspended.
> 2) At SG 1.01, give a good stir, open the valve, and stop stirring. (end Primary phase, and start Secondary phase).
> ...


I used FastFerment last September on a Barbera/Zinfandel blend. I did the first fermentation in my open vessel punching down the skins every morning and evening until it slowed down after 5 days. I pressed the skins lightly and put the first run and the pressed juice into four Fast ferment jugs for a few months and removed lees twice as needed.(about 28 gallons) I let the juices flow into three glass carboys and two 5+ gallon oak barrels. I will take the wine from the barrels in April and replace it with the wine in the glass carboys. I will then bottle the wine from the barrels. I plan to repeat the process with next fall's crush. It is a slight change from my only using glass from the process. I always top off the carboys with inert gas




and the barrels with reserved wine as needed. Wine in small oak barrels get oaked faster than in the big ones. So far the taste is very similar to doing it all glass. However the wine has minimum air contact after primary fermentation. Since the original posting of this I switched to using straight Argon gas to blanket my wines. As it is considerably cheaper and has no CO2 that might make it fizzy.


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## Billpizzaiolo (Feb 5, 2016)

I recently used two FastFerment vessels to ferment Chenin Blanc juice bought on sale at Corrado's. This is the result that I got today when I transferred it to two glass carboys. The color is result of the lighting in the in the kitchen at sunrise. The wine is the right color. It is in my SG test column.


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## Billpizzaiolo (Feb 7, 2016)

FastFerment has a new users manual posted on line as a pdf. In it they stress "It is recommended that you make wine with fresh juice and concentrates only." As i mentioned in an earlier posting i use fresh whole grapes and only put the juice in the FastFerment vessels after I press the skins. In reality that is "fresh juice." It worked very well for me and the wine although new tastes rather good as it is now in small wood barrels and is very clear due to the ease of racking and lack of O2 contact due to using Argon blanketing or


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## Billpizzaiolo (Feb 7, 2016)

An article on using gases in wine making from http://www.wineqc.com/papers/inertgas/inertgas.html


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