# OMG It Is Happening Again!!



## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

Now, enough of the dramatic title... I finally got my hands on 10 gallons of voigner and 5 gallons of gewurtz from this Fall's harvest in washington. I plan on making at least half of this into a sparkling wine blend and perhaps leave the other half still. More pictures and test results will follow!


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## acorn (Nov 2, 2014)

Sounds cool! Will you be bottle-fermenting it, riddling, disgorging, and dosaging your sparkling wine, or do you intend to carbonate it before bottling? I'll look forward to your pictures and results, as I'd love to see this process done step-by-step in a non-commercial setting. Good luck!


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

I will either use encapsulated yeast to try and make my life easier, or I will go through the whole disgorging process. I am not sure which path I will follow quite yet.


As I was pouring the voigner into the bucket it fizzed a good bit, I wonder if fermentation might have already gotten underway a bit... I went ahead and added 50 ppm sulfite into the must to try and seize up any kind of wild fermentation that might be going on. I currently have a starter of 58w3 building up that I re hydrated in go ferm evolution and got it whirring away on the stir plate with a bit of the must in it. I will pitch that in the morning. 

YEAST CHOICE



> "58W3 was isolated, studied and selected during a five-year research project by the INRA in Colmar (Alsace), France in collaboration with Gresser Oenology. The goal of this selection program was to find dominant natural yeast that would enhance spicy, floral and fruit descriptors in aromatic white varietals such as Gew�rztraminer and Pinot gris. Unique to the 58W3 is its ability to contribute an overall well-balanced mouthfeel and minimize the development of bitter compounds that are associated with more basic ‘work horse’ yeasts. Due to its fermentation kinetics, especially in high potential alcohol juices, a balanced nutrient strategy and good fermentation practices should be followed."



YEAST DERIVED NUTRIENTS

Here be one of my yeast derived nutrients. It is supposed to increase mouth feel, reduce dry perception, astringency and bitterness as well as promote ripe fruit aromas. I plan on adding this at the beginning of fermentation. At a dose of .3 g/l. (18 grams)

http://www.lallemandwine.com/catalo...activity_image_1237288589_Noblesse noir 2.pdf

My other yeast derived nutrient is opti-white. I plan on using .25 g/l at the start (15 grams) to give me some oxidation protection and help preserve some fruitiness and .25g/l at the end of fermentation (15 grams) to help simulate yeast aging ( like what is done inside of champagne bottles).




> Opti-WHITE® is certified organic by OMRI. Lallemand introduced this natural yeast derivative nutrient for use in white wine production after an extensive three-year research program. When added to the juice at the onset of fermentation, Opti-WHITE enhances smoothness, helps avoid browning from oxidation and protects fresh aromas during aging. Opti-WHITE is made using a specific production process that results in a yeast de*rivative rich in polysaccharides and high in anti-oxidant peptides (glutathione). These anti-oxidative properties work synergistically with SO2 allowing the winemaker to potentially lower the SO2 dosage. Opti-WHITE may also be added in the last stages of alcoholic fermentation to help bring out flavor profiles often associated with aging on lees.




NUTRIENT SCHEDULE 

Since I really do not know how much YAN is in this must I will supplement it with 175 mg/l YAN from fermaid O. I figure this should be enough to get me through fermentation even if the YAN is low at say like 100 mg/l, but not be way too off the mark if it is pretty good at 200 mg/l to start with.

175mg/l = .04*(mg/L)*FermaidO

So, I need to add 4.375 grams of fermaid O per liter of wine. Since I have about 60 liters this comes out to be 262 grams of fermaid O spread out over the end of lag phase, the 1/3 and 1/2 sugar breaks. Ie. 88 grams at each phase.


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

And here are the pictures as promised.

Opening all of these buckets was mildly labor intensive.






So here we can see that 66% of the must is at 24.6 brix and 4.35 g/l while 33% of it is at 22.6 brix and 7.5 g/l acid. I project that the blend will be around 23.7 brix with a TA of 5.34. I will go ahead and add acid to what I predict will bring me up to 11 g/l TA and will measure tomorrow and go from there. Around 338 grams of tartaric acid. If this takes me too high I will do MLF like they do in France sometimes.






Here is a picture of our lovely yeasty beasties getting up and ready to play.





And finnally the intesting part, the must in the giant 20 gallon bucket of doom inside of its temperature control unit.









More pictures and details will come as they are available. 

Also, as always advice and comments are always wanted.


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## acorn (Nov 2, 2014)

That's awesome! I like how you efficiently squeezed that 20 gallon bucket into the freezer.  Do you control the temperature with a thermostat or just by opening the door?

Do you plan to end it dry, off-dry or sweet?

By the way, do they really make their sparkling wines undergo MLF in France when the acid is too high? I would never have thought of this, hadn't you mentioned it. I thought MLF in white/sparkling wines was restricted to mitigate full-bodiness in wines like Chardonnay.

Thanks for the detailed start.


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

acorn said:


> That's awesome! I like how you efficiently squeezed that 20 gallon bucket into the freezer.  Do you control the temperature with a thermostat or just by opening the door?
> 
> Do you plan to end it dry, off-dry or sweet?
> 
> ...



Ha, it barely fit, but I got it in there. I control the temperature with a temperature controlled which is rigged to the probe inside of the stainless thermowell inside of the must. When the temperature gets too high, it kicks on the freezer until the must temp gets back down to where I want it.

I plan on taking it dry, but if it taste like it needs some sugar to balance it after aging for a year or so I will add sugar to balance it out.

They do it when their acid is too high. The French grapes tend to be higher in acid than the grapes on the westcoast, so to get similar TA and the such they do MLF sometimes. Typically, MLF is not done on aromatic whites since it can take away from the aromatic center of them.. But, who said you couldn't if you wanted too.....

MLF is common on most reds and chardonnays since it is good from a stability perspective and also since the flavor profile that evolves from it is generally seen as beneficial for these wines ( depending on the kind of chard you are making).

If you want some more reading, give this PDF a read. I will be reading it through when I get a chance to further expand my knowledge of the process before I get way too far into it.

http://www.apps.fst.vt.edu/extension/enology/downloads/463-017.pdf


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

The yeast strain I am using is good down to 12 C. So, I think I will ferment it at 13 C. Ie, 55 F, after the end of lag phase.


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## geek (Nov 2, 2014)

Looks like juice buckets from M&M?

Do their buckets come with the brix, ph, ta numbers, or is this actually frozen must/grapes? 
Either way I imagine shipping is up hill even to TN?


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

Yup they are M&M. Their buckets come with the numbers listed on them, but yes they are actual real frozen juice, must, and or grapes depending on what you order from them.

The shipping was not too bad on them, came out to like $30 a bucket for the shipping if I remember correctly.. Now, if you get a pallet load then things get cheaper.


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## geek (Nov 2, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Yup they are M&M. Their buckets come with the numbers listed on them, but yes they are actual real frozen juice, must, and or grapes depending on what you order from them.
> 
> The shipping was not too bad on them, came out to like $30 a bucket for the shipping if I remember correctly.. Now, if you get a pallet load then things get cheaper.




What brand was the juice bucket and how much?
I've never seen juice buckets with the numbers on them, that's good.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

geek said:


> What brand was the juice bucket and how much?
> I've never seen juice buckets with the numbers on them, that's good.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



Pretty sure, brand is not quite the right word but from the label it would appear that it came from two mountain wineries vines. So, looking back on my bank statement it looks like with tax and shipping 15.75 gallons of juice from these years harvest ended up costing me $465.. Which is not quite cheap, but when you look at the end of the day that I will have spent around $500 for what will hopefully be some top quality product, I am not complaining too much. Ie, bottle cost of around $6.66.

If you compare it to an eclipse gerwurtz kit

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/german-mosel-valley-gewurztraminer-eclipse.html

You are at $540 bucks for three kits. Once you do tax and shipping I would not be surprised if your cost came out to $640. Bottle cost of $8.53, not counting any additions or tweaks you might have in mind. And lets assume you get 5 gallons from each one, you are already over what I will have spent before even thinking about tax and shipping. Plus, when you do juice for a white wine you get complete control ( as much as nature allows) over the fermentation process. Which is something that I find very important and satisfying.


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## acorn (Nov 2, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Ha, it barely fit, but I got it in there. I control the temperature with a temperature controlled which is rigged to the probe inside of the stainless thermowell inside of the must. When the temperature gets too high, it kicks on the freezer until the must temp gets back down to where I want it.
> 
> I plan on taking it dry, but if it taste like it needs some sugar to balance it after aging for a year or so I will add sugar to balance it out.
> 
> ...



Thanks very much for that article. I feel like I could expand my knowledge on the methodology, although making sparkling wine is beyond my reach at the moment, both due to lack of space for special equipment and inexperience. But, maybe some day...

Looks like you have spent a pretty penny on those buckets of juice, but I totally agree with you, if you end up with a high quality product at the price that still beats the store/winery price, why not indeed. Now that I remember, my rationale for wine making at home (when I started with nothing but a carboy and a mesh bag ) was beating the store prices with cheap home made wine. But, over the years I learned to compromise the two, understanding that cheap inferior fruit cannot be turned into a great wine, with great equipment or otherwise.


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

acorn said:


> Thanks very much for that article. I feel like I could expand my knowledge on the methodology, although making sparkling wine is beyond my reach at the moment, both due to lack of space for special equipment and inexperience. But, maybe some day...
> 
> Looks like you have spent a pretty penny on those buckets of juice, but I totally agree with you, if you end up with a high quality product at the price that still beats the store/winery price, why not indeed. Now that I remember, my rationale for wine making at home (when I started with nothing but a carboy and a mesh bag ) was beating the store prices with cheap home made wine. But, over the years I learned to compromise the two, understanding that cheap inferior fruit cannot be turned into a great wine, with great equipment or otherwise.



Very true no amount of equipment can take low quality fruit and turn it into gold.. However, a skilled winemaker can do his best to do well with what he gets... even if the quality is subpar.

Actually, to be honest, I never have looked at winemaking from the perspective of I want to make wine at home so I can beat the store prices. To me, it has always been about challenging myself and trying to make better wine. Or trying out new technique and becoming more knowledgeable. 

I do though strive to make as high quality wine as I can, and if I can make wine that in my mind matches or surpasses a good bottle of wine from the store, then I will smile to myself, pat myself on the shoulder and try and keep moving upward and onward.


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## acorn (Nov 2, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Very true no amount of equipment can take low quality fruit and turn it into gold.. However, a skilled winemaker can do his best to do well with what he gets... even if the quality is subpar.
> 
> Actually, to be honest, I never have looked at winemaking from the perspective of I want to make wine at home so I can beat the store prices. To me, it has always been about challenging myself and trying to make better wine. Or trying out new technique and becoming more knowledgeable.
> 
> I do though strive to make as high quality wine as I can, and if I can make wine that in my mind matches or surpasses a good bottle of wine from the store, then I will smile to myself, pat myself on the shoulder and try and keep moving upward and onward.



Oh, absolutely, I quite share your sentiment. Currently I too treat wine crafting more as a piece of work that I am very proud of when I do it right, which is why I am improving both the equipment inventory and mastering the skill. I was just remarking how far I was from this mental state when I initially started.


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## seth8530 (Nov 2, 2014)

Ah I understand. I would be willing to venture ( not sure if enough people are still around from when I first started here) to say that it would be quite evident from my older post that my take on wine has definitely changed drastically over time.


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## seth8530 (Nov 3, 2014)

I measured the gravity this morning, it indicated 20 brix. I beleive this is a result to some fermentation after I pitched the yeast last night or more likely from before the juice was frozen. I will use my predicted brix of 23.7 (SG 1.100) as the starting point.

Now for the nutrient schedule

1.1-.992= .108
.108/3=.036
.108/2=.054

88 grams fermaid O at end of lag ( now)


88 grams fermaid O at 1/3 sugar break 1.072
88 grams fermaid O at 1.2 sugar break 1.046

I checked the PH this morning after the addition, it looks like we are down to 2.95. The TA I measured to be right around 8 g/l. I believe that this means that I might have some undissolved acid in the must or perhaps the indications written on the buckets were not quite that accurate. Either way, with the PH down to 2.95 I will not be adding any more acid since the must seemed to have a nice acidic twang to it.


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## wineforfun (Nov 3, 2014)

Curious to see how your Gewurtz turns out(if you do some of it alone). I have recently tried it by Chateau Ste. Michelle. I really like their 2012 vintage. About the only white I care for.


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## geek (Nov 3, 2014)

You know, I recently made a WE SI Gewurtz kit and just for the sake of it I checked PH and it was also very low in the 2.7x during ferment and then ended around 2.9x


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## seth8530 (Nov 3, 2014)

Well, I am fermenting a blend, so I won't be able to tell you how the Gewurtz tuns out on its own... But, I am hoping for some good gerwurtz character in the wine.. So we shall see. I my self have been exploring whites a bit more as of recently and I have been pleasantly surprised by the level of personality some of the dry and off dry whites have.


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## seth8530 (Nov 3, 2014)

geek said:


> You know, I recently made a WE SI Gewurtz kit and just for the sake of it I checked PH and it was also very low in the 2.7x during ferment and then ended around 2.9x



Yeah, I have been doing some reading about sparkling wine PH and TA, and for the most part it does not seem that I am way too far off the mark with where I am at right now. So long as I don't go through MLF or loose too much acid from cold stabilization.


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## seth8530 (Nov 4, 2014)

Fermentation is down to 1.080. I am gong to go ahead and add 88 more grams of fermaid O.


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## JohnT (Nov 5, 2014)

Seth, 

I have been meaning to ask you if you have ever given forced carbonation a try. 

I started out doing only natural carbonation, but hated the disgorging process and also found that (when aged in a Corney Keg) it was impossible to get all of the spent yeast out and the slightest shake would cause the whole batch to get cloudy for a number of weeks. 

Once I tried forced carbonation.. 

1) Aged my base wine for a year or two, 
2) filtered it, 
3) Transferred 4 gallons to a 5 gallon corney keg
4) sealed and purged keg with CO2, 
5) Pumped CO2 up to 30 psi
6) placed in my beer keg-a-rator for 3 weeks at 34F

The results were fantastic! No disgorging and perfectly clear right down to the last drop!


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 5, 2014)

JohnT: did you serve from the corny keg, or bottle?


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## acorn (Nov 5, 2014)

JohnT said:


> I have been meaning to ask you if you have ever given forced carbonation a try.



Just out of curiosity, how did effervescence in your forcefully carbonated wine turn out to show? Was it more like in soda drinks or tiny bubbles beading as in commercial sparkling wines? In one of the books I read that while it is possible to go both ways, that is classical disgorging or forced carbonation, the "native" CO2 tends to come out as a string of tiny bubbles, whereas the latter comes our in the form of larger bubbles popping up randomly across the surface of the wine in the glass. I wonder, how does your personal experience speak to this theory? Thanks.


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## seth8530 (Nov 5, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Seth,
> 
> I have been meaning to ask you if you have ever given forced carbonation a try.
> 
> ...



I know people who force carb beer, but I feel like I will stick with the traditional or at least semi-traditional path for now. One of the reasons is that I really like serving from bottles, they are much easier to transport and in the past I have not had good luck going from a beer gun to a bottle before when transferring beer from a keg to bottle.

Another reason is that I want to give the process a try, so I might end up regretting all the work and pain it puts me through later... But, I think it is worth the experience. 



On the topic of bubbles, from what I have read the nature of the bubbles has a lot to do with the proteins left in or out of the wine.


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## acorn (Nov 5, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> On the topic of bubbles, from what I have read the nature of the bubbles has a lot to do with the proteins left in or out of the wine.



I guess that means no bentonite treatment for sparkling wines then.


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## seth8530 (Nov 5, 2014)

I would say not necessarily.


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## Treeman (Nov 5, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> I know people who force carb beer, but I feel like I will stick with the traditional or at least semi-traditional path for now. One of the reasons is that I really like serving from bottles, they are much easier to transport and in the past I have not had good luck going from a beer gun to a bottle before when transferring beer from a keg to bottle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Might want to reconsider the force carb. If your initial brix was ~24, you might be getting 14-15% alcohol which is typically to high for a traditional methode champenoise. The references that I've been reading suggest ~17 brix is the preferred starting point.


Cheers!


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## seth8530 (Nov 5, 2014)

Treeman said:


> Might want to reconsider the force carb. If your initial brix was ~24, you might be getting 14-15% alcohol which is typically to high for a traditional methode champenoise. The references that I've been reading suggest ~17 brix is the preferred starting point.
> 
> 
> Cheers!



Yeah, I saw that. I might try and bottle carb a test bottle before I do the whole batch. If the one bottle will not bottle carb I will likely just keep it all still.


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## Treeman (Nov 6, 2014)

I'm not setup to try it yet, but curious to see if Biolees, or Surlie products can provide enough protein to alter bubble size in force carbonated sparkling wines. 


Cheers!


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## seth8530 (Nov 6, 2014)

I am not sure, I have not read enough yet, so I am not sure if high protein counts or lower counts or perhaps a certain sweet spot are more conducive to a middle ground.


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## JohnT (Nov 6, 2014)

I do not really know the science of it, but I have always been told that AGE has more to do with the bubble size and the duration of carbonation. Most of the champagne houses I have visited have typically aged their champagne for 18 months after the bottles were capped for just this very reason. 

Boatboy: I serve right through my keg-o-rator. Champagne on tap! Quite a novelty and folks seem to really get a kick out of it. It also helps that the champagne tastes pretty good (IMHO).

Acorn: The carbonation lasts a good long time. This has mostly to do with the fact that I chill it down to 34 degrees and keep it there. This allows the CO2 to go into solution (form carbonic acid). The carbonation is much like a soda at first, then settles down nicely. This is much like most other champagnes...


Update: Just to clarify: The champagne is ready to drink in about 3 weeks, but I like to age it further for 3 months.


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## seth8530 (Nov 16, 2014)

So, I went and racked the wine into a 6 and 2 5 gallon carboys. As suspected I came up a little bit short, so I am going to have to get some wine to top off from the store when I get a chance. The gravity read 1.012 when I racked and I noticed quite a bit of really gritty sediment in the bottom which makes me suspect that some acid might have dropped out due to the cold ferment. However, all in all it smells really clean and under the young smell has quite a nice fruity aroma to it. I also added the last of the yeast derived nutrient ( optiwhite) into the aging carboys.


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## acorn (Nov 16, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> So, I went and racked the wine into a 6 and 2 5 gallon carboys. As suspected I came up a little bit short, so I am going to have to get some wine to top off from the store when I get a chance. The gravity read 1.012 when I racked and I noticed quite a bit of really gritty sediment in the bottom which makes me suspect that some acid might have dropped out due to the cold ferment. However, all in all it smells really clean and under the young smell has quite a nice fruity aroma to it. I also added the last of the yeast derived nutrient ( optiwhite) into the aging carboys.



If I recall correctly, you were aiming to get the acid to the 11 g/L level, which seems quite high. I am wondering, did you add all of it by now, or do you still plan to add more? Is the temperature in the room so low that you suspect acid crysals to have precipitated so eagerly at this early stage?


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## seth8530 (Nov 17, 2014)

Acid levels that high are not way out of the question for sparkling wines. But, I am fermenting in a deepfreezer with a temperature control unit in the must at 55F. So, if something dropped out I am not surprised. I will need to double check the TA now that fermentation is done. I added the acid prior to the ferment, so I might have to add more now that fermentation is done... But, if I do I will wait a month or two before I do that to get a good idea of how it taste.


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## seth8530 (Nov 18, 2014)

Nothing new in this post.


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## seth8530 (Jan 5, 2015)

In an effort to stave of clearing issues I had with last years Chardonnay I am going to treat with around 15-16 grams of bentonite per 5-6 gallon carboy of our lovely bubbely blend.


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## LeChat (Jan 6, 2015)

Hey Seth,

Random question time:

How do you transfer your wine from the huge 20 gallon "bucket" (cmon, we all know it's a garbage can  )?

Do you use a pump or are you incredibly strong ?

I plan on making a huge 30-40 gallon batch from real grapes next harvest and I am having trouble figuring out how to transfer efficiently (I used a pail in the past).


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## seth8530 (Jan 6, 2015)

With my setup their is no good option other than using a pump to move wine from my deep freezer. ( Try picking up 15 gallons of wine from a bucket that has been wedged into a too small of a chiller). So for batches of the size you have in mind, you will need a pump. 

I would buy a food grade pump and prefilter. And perhaps rig up some kind of simple device to allow you pump off of skins without sucking them in.. Ie ,racking cane inside of pvc pipe with holes drilled in it.


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## seth8530 (Jan 7, 2015)

I went and added the bentonite. I also checked the SO2 and found it to be somewhere between 19-23 ppm. Since I will not be checking or doing anything to this guy for a long time I decided to go ahead and add 50 ppm sulfite to it.


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## seth8530 (Dec 24, 2015)

So, today is bottling. Roughly 14 gallons of the bubbly blend going into lovely green champagne bottles topped with crown caps.

The starting brix was 23.7 (SG 1.100) and the final gravity with temperature correction is .995. 

ABV is roughly 13.8%. I plan on carbing up to 6 volumes of CO2 using yeast.


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## Julie (Dec 24, 2015)

Welcome back Seth, it has been awhile since you have been here.


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## acorn (Dec 24, 2015)

seth8530 said:


> The starting brix was 23.7 (SG 1.100) and the final gravity with temperature correction is .995.
> 
> ABV is roughly 13.8%. I plan on carbing up to 6 volumes of CO2 using yeast.



Congrats, Seth! So, it has been just over a year in production and now you have reached the most exciting time, the bottling and tasting. 

How does that ABV affect the taste? From what it looks, your wine's acidity is high and the sugar is low, so with the elevated alcohol and carbonation, I wonder if it is one of those wines that "bite". I would assume you didn't let it go through MLF.

Also, you say you will not dosage with sugar syrup, right? 

Thanks for posting on your progress step by step. I will not hold back that I am really inspired to try this on my own as a result of following this thread. 

Happy Holidays!


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## seth8530 (Dec 27, 2015)

Julie said:


> Welcome back Seth, it has been awhile since you have been here.




Thanks, grad school has been busy.



acorn said:


> Congrats, Seth! So, it has been just over a year in production and now you have reached the most exciting time, the bottling and tasting.
> 
> How does that ABV affect the taste? From what it looks, your wine's acidity is high and the sugar is low, so with the elevated alcohol and carbonation, I wonder if it is one of those wines that "bite". I would assume you didn't let it go through MLF.
> 
> ...



Thanks, this guy has been quite the adventure. From when I tried it still, the ABV is not really showing through really strong. Could be that the ABV is lower than estimated based on the listed brix that came on the buckets. When I tried it still, the acid was a bit intense, but I am hoping that it will be about right for a dry crisp sparkling wine. 

By dosage, I assume you mean backsweeten after clearing the bottles of yeast? At this moment, I don't plan on disgorging unless it turns out that the yeast does not settle well or if it really gets kicked up in the wine when I open it. However, if I end up tasting a bottle or two and the acidity is just way out of place, I would not be opposed to adding a bit of sugar back to it. If I ended up doing that, I would also go ahead and disgorge all of the sparkling wine.


I am glad you enjoyed reading, I will try and post when first tasting is done. I assume this should be in around 6 weeks, to allow the wine to fully carbonate and settle out.


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## acorn (Dec 28, 2015)

seth8530 said:


> I am glad you enjoyed reading, I will try and post when first tasting is done. I assume this should be in around 6 weeks, to allow the wine to fully carbonate and settle out.



Thanks, I look forward to your tasting notes!


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