# For pleasure or profit?



## Dylan (May 26, 2013)

I'm blown away by some of the set ups I've seen on this site! The time, dedication, space, and not to much mention money that goes into home winemaking is outstanding. 

Just out of curiosity, how many of you are making wine for personal consumption and who is actually making some money?

I know you have to spend money to make money and this can be a pretty expensive hobby, but you also need a license to sell.

Forgive me if I sound ignorant or anything, but I'm interested to know who's doing it for pleasure and/or profit? and why?

Dylan


----------



## GreginND (May 26, 2013)

Until now it's been just for fun. But last year I bought a 12 acre farmstead and am in the process of opening my commercial winery. As a matter of fact my first 325 vines went in the ground yesterday. My plan is to get my licenses in place this summer and start making wine commercially this fall.

I wanted to share and I love the aspect if having a tasting room to share and talk about wine with folks.


----------



## jswordy (May 26, 2013)

Much depends on the state in which you live. In my explorations, I have found Iowa to be the easiest state to get into the winery business. Buy your Iowa state permit and you are in biz.

Living in Tennessee as I do, I would never try it. The state is controlled by the large liquor distributors and lays a heavy hand on anyone who does not deal with those folks. Of course, big distributors want nothing to do with small volumes. 

Small wineries here can only sell onsite. They have no means of distribution, and so the business model is sketchy. That's why there's just a handful of them in the state. It is easier to start a distillery here than a winery.


----------



## saramc (May 26, 2013)

Home winemaker here, and I find pure pleasure in the handcrafting of my wine, mead and cider. The one thing about those who have ventured into the commercial market is you find they are usually just as passionate about their commercial winemaking as they were when they were making it at home. To have a 'job' that you find pleasure in is quite rare. And if I were not disabled and declining I would likely be one of those happy owner/operators, but just not meant to be.


----------



## FABulousWines (May 26, 2013)

I spoke to a local commercial vintner a few weeks ago on this topic. Here in NC, on top of the federal license, you need three state licenses. One to make, one to sell, and one to serve. They also require an onsite inspection.

I've been thinking of a second career for retirement and I've kicked this one around. I have a some years before than can be a reality, but I am considering it. We'll see what kind of wine I am making when the time comes and see if a business plan is workable...


----------



## seth8530 (May 26, 2013)

My grandparents own a winery here in TN. So, I know what you mean about it being kinda tough to get into business around here... However, it is not impossible.. that is for sure.. 

I myself just enjoy making wine, It is something I really like to do and I cant wait to see where it takes me.


----------



## novalou (May 26, 2013)

Dylan said:


> I'm blown away by some of the set ups I've seen on this site! The time, dedication, space, and not to much mention money that goes into home winemaking is outstanding.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how many of you are making wine for personal consumption and who is actually making some money?
> 
> ...



This past year I made about 60 gallons for pleasure. Most of my money for equipment went towards carboys and a floor corker.

I have thought about making wine commercially, but I would shoot for 2,000 cases to be worth my time.


----------



## Duster (May 26, 2013)

jswordy said:


> Much depends on the state in which you live. In my explorations, I have found Iowa to be the easiest state to get into the winery business. Buy your Iowa state permit and you are in biz.
> 
> Living in Tennessee as I do, I would never try it. The state is controlled by the large liquor distributors and lays a heavy hand on anyone who does not deal with those folks. Of course, big distributors want nothing to do with small volumes.
> 
> Small wineries here can only sell onsite. They have no means of distribution, and so the business model is sketchy. That's why there's just a handful of them in the state. It is easier to start a distillery here than a winery.



would't you still need your federal licences and bond in Iowa along with the state permit?
To answer the original question, mine is only hobby. I have had people offer to pay me for wine, the answer is always no, followed by the suggestion that I'm always on the lookout for free or cheap fruit.


----------



## Julie (May 26, 2013)

Dylan,

The majority of winemakers here are homemakers and it is illegal for a home winemaker to sell there wine. It is strictly for personal consumption. To make wine for profit you need to have a federal and state license.


----------



## Dylan (May 26, 2013)

In my post I said that you need a license to sell...


----------



## Julie (May 26, 2013)

I know Dylan, but not everyone would have read that and what a lot do not understand is, anything on the Internet can be monitored by the government and is monitored and before anyone thinks I am being paranoid, I know this for a fact. Do I think ATF is watching the site, don't know but bet you they are clued into certain words.

Just a word of caution, pay attention to what you do and say.


----------



## Dylan (May 26, 2013)

I don't think you're paranoid. and I'm not trying to unearth any illegal activities. I'm just new to this world of wine and eventually want to get into the distribution business. In the end I think we all do it for pleasure, but only few cn do it for profit.


----------



## Pumpkinman (May 26, 2013)

Julie,
I couldn't agree more, very wise post!


----------



## jamesngalveston (May 26, 2013)

Here in Texas you have to have about 25 permits and all goes through what we call Lone star gestapo.....Texas Alcohol Beverage Commision.
I can make 200 gallons a year for myself..I can give it to anyone,.
I can not sell, are trade anything for it.
I am a beginner wine maker.


----------



## dralarms (May 26, 2013)

I'm in it strickly for profit..

It profits my health and taste buds with every bottle I drink. 

Seriously though, I make mine for me and my family and friends, don't take any money for it, I did have my sister in law call me up and ask if I could find a use for some muscadines. ( well duh).


----------



## dangerdave (May 27, 2013)

Same here, as most of you. I make wine for the pure joy of it. Something about this hobby speaks to my soul. I'm afraid if I turned it into a business, I would lose some of the fun. But that's just me.

Most hobbies are strictly self-indulgent. This one gets shared with everyone...who's nice to me.


----------



## jamesngalveston (May 27, 2013)

well said Julie, well said.


----------



## Abrnth3 (May 27, 2013)

Just for personal use here, Maybe a gift or two.


----------



## vernsgal (May 27, 2013)

All personel for me


----------



## vacuumpumpman (May 27, 2013)

All personal - I really enjoying going to a get together and people ask where did you get that great tasting wine ? And of course you talk for awhile about being a winemaker and then they ask you - well how much can I buy from you ? and you tell them its not 4 sale but I will show you how you can make it like someone showed me. Then another winemaker gets his wings !! (or carboys )


----------



## seth8530 (May 27, 2013)

Nah, a winemakers gotta grow a hydrometers before he can grow a carboy * looks down in the shower..* .....check!


----------



## jswordy (May 28, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> My grandparents own a winery here in TN. So, I know what you mean about it being kinda tough to get into business around here... However, it is not impossible.. that is for sure..
> 
> I myself just enjoy making wine, It is something I really like to do and I cant wait to see where it takes me.



No, it's not impossible in TN, just incredibly difficult if you are investing rather than spending. In the aggregate, when you look at the number of annual failures and the extremely low total number of wineries in the state, you see it's a tougher environment than NC, Virginia, Kentucky, Illinois or Arkansas, as far as neighboring/nearby states. Only neighbors Alabama and Mississippi come close to the strictures of TN. Actually, in Alabama, it is easier for small wineries to sell product and they have a distributor dealing only in small winery products.

It is indeed easier to distill in TN than to ferment wine, and a bumper crop of new distilleries is popping up in response to targeted legislation to encourage them. But with the wine restrictions on where produce can be obtained and how wine can be sold, the wine business model is tenuous.

I have seriously considered a winery and seriously explored the rules in many various states, and I would definitely move if I were to do it. On the other hand, if you have a lot of money and don't care that the business plan is weak (like Kix Brooks at Arrington Winery), that's another story. I had gained the potential backing of a wealthy prospective partner, who nonetheless wanted to see a return on his investment, and we eventually arrived at the conclusion that the business model here is very difficult for ROI due to the state laws.

This is a very good document that illustrates in general the roadblocks to wineries in TN: https://utextension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/PB1688.pdf

This explains the selling restrictions on TN wineries: http://tnwinelovers.net/TNWineLaws.html The site explains a lot of TN wine laws, like mandating that all wines be sold through a distributor in liquor stores only, etc.

It's a far cry from simply buying your state permit, as in Iowa.


----------



## jswordy (May 28, 2013)

Duster said:


> would't you still need your federal licences and bond in Iowa along with the state permit?
> To answer the original question, mine is only hobby. I have had people offer to pay me for wine, the answer is always no, followed by the suggestion that I'm always on the lookout for free or cheap fruit.



Yes, but the federal laws are a constant. I am referring to the state laws only, since those are the place where there is a patchwork of laws and varying degrees of restriction. Some states are very easy, some are unbelievably difficult, and usually the difference is how much the politicians are in the pockets of the big beer, wine and liquor distributors.

Why for example did California wines rise over the Midwestern vintages? One reason was growing environment. But never discount the fact that it was also relatively easy to become a bonded winery there.


----------



## JohnT (May 29, 2013)

Julie, 

I agree with everything you have said, in spades!

I have never accepted money for the wine I make. I also make less then the legal limit. 

That being said, IMHO, questions like "how much do you make" and "do you sell your wine" should never be asked or answered. 

My thinking is that there really is no benefit to knowing this about others and the liabilities are obvious.


----------



## Julie (May 29, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Julie,
> 
> I agree with everything you have said, in spades!
> 
> ...


 

Exactly!!!!!!!! And thanks for this post.


----------



## Runningwolf (May 29, 2013)

Julie, you mean all this time you would have just given me your wine for free?


----------



## FABulousWines (May 29, 2013)

Uh oh, somebody is in trouble!


----------



## Julie (May 29, 2013)

FABulousWines, Dan is always in trouble!


----------



## Dylan (May 30, 2013)

So basically no one here has a degree in enology and viticulture or a licensed wine business... Got it. Although, some are perusing to take their "hobby" to the next level and make a living out of it. Thank you everyone for your feedback, be it paranoid or not.


----------



## jswordy (May 30, 2013)

Dylan said:


> So basically no one here has a degree in enology and viticulture or a licensed wine business... Got it. Although, some are perusing to take their "hobby" to the next level and make a living out of it. Thank you everyone for your feedback, be it paranoid or not.



Yeah, just for the record, I for one am not paranoid about it. I am an amateur vintner who abides by the laws and regulations in my state. 

Were the laws in Tennessee such that I could make an adequate business case to turn pro, I would. 

There are several members who operate commercial wineries, and several more who are establishing such operations.

I did not feel like your question was out of bounds at all. It's been asked before.


----------



## GaDawg (May 30, 2013)

I'm retired, and I make wine for fun. If it were a job I would not do it


----------



## JohnT (May 30, 2013)

Dylan said:


> be it paranoid or not.


 
Sounds like a Narc to me. 

Ok buddy, tell FBI pals to remove that plain white van from the front of my house!


----------



## novalou (May 30, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Sounds like a Narc to me.
> 
> Ok buddy, tell FBI pals to remove that plain white van from the front of my house!



Go watch the movie or read the book "Atlas Shrugged".


----------



## Dylan (May 30, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Sounds like a Narc to me.
> 
> Ok buddy, tell FBI pals to remove that plain white van from the front of my house!



Hahaha keep digging yourself in a hole there guy


----------



## Loner (May 30, 2013)

A very informative book .. A nice (lengthy) read.


----------



## GreginND (May 30, 2013)

Dylan said:


> So basically no one here has a degree in enology and viticulture or a licensed wine business... Got it. Although, some are perusing to take their "hobby" to the next level and make a living out of it. Thank you everyone for your feedback, be it paranoid or not.



While most people here are "amateur" home wine makers, there are several who are working on the commercial side. Some who are in the process of starting up wineries and some who are already open for business. Some who work at wineries. I think you have all walks showing up here.


----------



## Runningwolf (May 30, 2013)

When the man at my door hollered ATF, I thought it was just another delivery.


----------



## Midwest Vintner (May 31, 2013)

I do both at the same time. I actually LIKE to make wine. Not just drinking it. We like to experiment, so having a license just means we can sell it if we get approval. It takes process and ingredient approvals to make anything that's not your basic fruit wine (grape or other fruit). Our raspberry chipotle, for example.

If you think starting a winery means profit, you are kidding yourself. Getting legal isn't easy either. Would I do it again? Yes, but by no means is it easy.


----------



## downunder (May 31, 2013)

Commercially. In Australia it sounds as though it is a little easier than in many states in the USA. If you do it commercially you have to decide do you do it from a cellar door or from markets/farmers markets (if allowed) etc.
Its not like the movies "If you build it they will come" cellar door sales are all about location ...location...location. If you build your cellar door at the end of a dirt road 10 miles from the highway don't expect a crowd.
That's why I chose the market route because your customers come to you, You just have to convince them to buy.
Will not go into any more detail but if anyone wants general guide lines on which way to go just ask although the legal requirements between our countries are different the same basic rules apply as to how and if you set up cellar door sales/market method of selling.


----------



## jswordy (May 31, 2013)

novalou said:


> Go watch the movie or read the book "Atlas Shrugged".



Oh please - Ayn Rand? For real?  

I did not realize we could discuss politics on this forum. 

"I wouldn't be so paranoid if they all weren't against me." - Maj. Frank Burns, MASH 4077th


----------



## GreginND (May 31, 2013)

I put "amateur" in quotes because I know that many of you "amateurs" could take the "pros" on in head to head tasting!


----------



## jswordy (May 31, 2013)

By definition, the only difference between a pro and an amateur is the pro gets paid. Uh, big time college sports and the Olympics might be exceptions.


----------



## petey (May 31, 2013)

GreginND said:


> While most people here are "amateur" home wine makers, there are several who are working on the commercial side. Some who are in the process of starting up wineries and some who are already open for business. Some who work at wineries. I think you have all walks showing up here.



And that's why I like it here. I'm learning something new every day. Thanks to all and I love my new winemaker hobby


----------



## jamesngalveston (May 31, 2013)

Actually JS...in big time college sports, and the olympics...they do not get paid to play, are to participate.
They get paid by there endorsements.
A college quarterback can not be paid to play, but can take money on ads.
A Oympian can not get paid to hurtle, but they can take endorsement for the shoes they wear, in a timely manner.


----------



## novalou (May 31, 2013)

jswordy said:


> Oh please - Ayn Rand? For real?
> 
> I did not realize we could discuss politics on this forum.
> 
> "I wouldn't be so paranoid if they all weren't against me." - Maj. Frank Burns, MASH 4077th



This thread turned political as soon as someone mentioned ATF.


----------



## Julie (May 31, 2013)

novalou said:


> This thread turned political as soon as someone mentioned ATF.



Roflmao, don't worry I'll shut the thread down at the first political argument!


----------



## jswordy (May 31, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> Actually JS...in big time college sports, and the olympics...they do not get paid to play, are to participate.
> They get paid by there endorsements.
> A college quarterback can not be paid to play, but can take money on ads.
> A Oympian can not get paid to hurtle, but they can take endorsement for the shoes they wear, in a timely manner.


 
Um, I'm a former sports editor and I live in SEC country man. Tell it to someone who believes it. If you get a full ride to play football, yer getting paid in my book. And that doesn't count the cars, the free tutoring, or the time off from classes you get to play the game. 

Um, if the US basketball team in the Olympics is made up of all pros, well...


----------



## jswordy (May 31, 2013)

novalou said:


> This thread turned political as soon as someone mentioned ATF.


 
I'll just stick with the Frank Burns quote.


----------



## GaDawg (May 31, 2013)

jswordy said:


> By definition, the only difference between a pro and an amateur is the pro gets paid. Uh, big time college sports and the Olympics might be exceptions.



If you guys are paying football players at UT you sure ain't getting your moneys worth


----------



## jswordy (May 31, 2013)

GaDawg said:


> If you guys are paying football players at UT you sure ain't getting your moneys worth


 
I live in TN and work in AL. The SEC as a whole ought to just come clean and say what is really going on, instead of this charade.


----------



## jamesngalveston (Jun 1, 2013)

guess your right...thanks


----------



## seth8530 (Jun 1, 2013)

GaDawg said:


> If you guys are paying football players at UT you sure ain't getting your moneys worth



That is UT to you thank you very much.


----------



## Dylan (Jun 1, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Until now it's been just for fun. But last year I bought a 12 acre farmstead and am in the process of opening my commercial winery. As a matter of fact my first 325 vines went in the ground yesterday. My plan is to get my licenses in place this summer and start making wine commercially this fall.
> 
> I wanted to share and I love the aspect if having a tasting room to share and talk about wine with folks.



Now that's what I'm talking about. You are where I'd like to be someday. Keep us updated on your progress. Best of luck!


----------



## Midwest Vintner (Jun 3, 2013)

downunder said:


> Commercially. In Australia it sounds as though it is a little easier than in many states in the USA. If you do it commercially you have to decide do you do it from a cellar door or from markets/farmers markets (if allowed) etc.
> Its not like the movies "If you build it they will come" cellar door sales are all about location ...location...location. If you build your cellar door at the end of a dirt road 10 miles from the highway don't expect a crowd.
> That's why I chose the market route because your customers come to you, You just have to convince them to buy.
> Will not go into any more detail but if anyone wants general guide lines on which way to go just ask although the legal requirements between our countries are different the same basic rules apply as to how and if you set up cellar door sales/market method of selling.



We are out the tasting room only, but we are in a historic wine making part of the WORLD, not just the U.S., so we have a small advantage over other wineries here in the states (not counting anything California). We have 3 wineries in Hermann that make over 50,000 gallons. Stone Hill Winery produces 260,000 gallons. We produce A LOT less than any of them.  Still very young at 1 1/2 yrs, but growing. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_wine


----------



## Midwest Vintner (Jun 3, 2013)

GreginND said:


> I put "amateur" in quotes because I know that many of you "amateurs" could take the "pros" on in head to head tasting!



I will agree here, but there's a big distinction between pro, amateur and what we do (small timers). See, many "pro's" are making wine for profit, which means they worry about costs and have batch sizes that range (along with all the equipment). People at home don't have near the same pressure, cost per bottle and some of the other constraints that a commercial maker has. The large producers have big time wine makers, but they are making +1000 gallon batches with a range of fruit (not as picky about ripeness, etc), where you got people here using home grown fruit that is much more attended to. Now there are some big timers that have some insane planning and production capabilities, but nothing can match the very small, very well attended home wine makers that have a passion for what they do. It's just not possible to get that attention to detail with such large quantities. Then there are people like me (and many others) that have taken the hobby to commercial, but are not trying to go big. We can put more attention to the wine and have a little more control as to the fruit (easier to examine 800 lbs vs 8000 lbs). It's just about the scale of the operation. I would compare it to home brewers vs craft breweries vs large breweries (Miller, etc). You can have all the gadgets, gizmo's and $$$$$ of a big timer and produce wine like Yellow Tail (a brand which I actually do like, but as I said, the attention to detail cannot be matched when it comes down to batch sizing). There will always be good and bad of all kinds of wine/wineries, but it's virtually impossible to escape the batch sizing issue. This is why great wine made on any scale, cost major $$$ and more than likely, you could find a cheaper wine made on a smaller scale that is still better. JUST MY OPINION HERE.


----------



## Midwest Vintner (Jun 3, 2013)

Oh and the Tigers didn't do well in football, but with mostly transfers, kicked much of the sec's arse in basketball. Football will come around soon enough.


----------



## downunder (Jun 3, 2013)

Midwest Vintner said:


> We are out the tasting room only, but we are in a historic wine making part of the WORLD, not just the U.S., so we have a small advantage over other wineries here in the states (not counting anything California). We have 3 wineries in Hermann that make over 50,000 gallons. Stone Hill Winery produces 260,000 gallons. We produce A LOT less than any of them.  Still very young at 1 1/2 yrs, but growing.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_wine



I can understand what you are saying I live on the edge of the Barossa Valley where we have literally dozens of wineries some of them producing 1,000,000's of litres per year with perhaps 3 wineries in the same road. Can you imagine how hard it would be for a newcomer to start a tasting room /cellar door sales amongst that competition. Every year new people try it and 99% don't make it past 3 years and lose their money/homes/vineyards at the same time.


----------



## GreginND (Jun 3, 2013)

downunder said:


> I can understand what you are saying I live on the edge of the Barossa Valley where we have literally dozens of wineries some of them producing 1,000,000's of litres per year with perhaps 3 wineries in the same road. Can you imagine how hard it would be for a newcomer to start a tasting room /cellar door sales amongst that competition. Every year new people try it and 99% don't make it past 3 years and lose their money/homes/vineyards at the same time.



Exactly why I am opening a winery HERE in ND where there are no big name wineries in competition. Just a friendly handful of small boutique wineries who all (well, most) want to work together to grow the local business. If I was in California or Barossa, I don't think I would make the move to licensing and selling.


----------



## jswordy (Jun 3, 2013)

Midwest Vintner said:


> Oh and the Tigers didn't do well in football, but with mostly transfers, kicked much of the sec's arse in basketball. Football will come around soon enough.



Thank you for educating me that besides football there is another lesser SEC game. 

I Googled "basketball" and found it interestingly quaint.  

Seems the colder and longer the winters get, the more people talk of this game called "basketball." 

Mizzou doesn't care if they lose in SEC football. As long as the register goes "CA-CHING!" And when the SEC FOOTBALL fans came to Columbia, it sure did!

Hijacked again...


----------



## downunder (Jun 4, 2013)

GreginND said:


> Exactly why I am opening a winery HERE in ND where there are no big name wineries in competition. Just a friendly handful of small boutique wineries who all (well, most) want to work together to grow the local business. If I was in California or Barossa, I don't think I would make the move to licensing and selling.



Sounds like you have the ideal location. I chose the other option, instead of fighting the big boys and their large budgets on their home soil I chose to do country and community markets. I do between 6 and 8 a month (sometimes more with specials markets and agricultural shows). You don't have to sit there hoping someone will come to you tasting room today. People go to markets. Most go to spend. What you have to do is convince them to spend their money on your wine. The rest of the week I am free to work in the vineyard, make wine, relax whatever takes my fancy


----------



## Midwest Vintner (Jun 4, 2013)

downunder said:


> I can understand what you are saying I live on the edge of the Barossa Valley where we have literally dozens of wineries some of them producing 1,000,000's of litres per year with perhaps 3 wineries in the same road. Can you imagine how hard it would be for a newcomer to start a tasting room /cellar door sales amongst that competition. Every year new people try it and 99% don't make it past 3 years and lose their money/homes/vineyards at the same time.



We make wines that none of them do. We make wines that I've never seen or heard of ever being produced, so we are not in direct competition. In fact, many of the other wineries recommend coming by because it is such a different experience. Further, Hermann, MO is a historic wine area, so we get a LOT of tourists (think hundreds of thousands) that want to try new things. We are building steadily at a good pace. At a year and half, we are doing good. Our location is a 8 miles out of town, but it is on the biggest avenue into town and we have signs. Location is key, but the main thing is, *making good wine.* When you play with the big boys, you have to learn quick. Larger equipment, etc are not the same and you'd better get your wine right. Sadly, we are just now (on our 3rd year of making) getting closer to the wine we made for home use before. We are continuing to improve and soon enough, we'll exceed our previous bests.


----------



## GaDawg (Jun 5, 2013)

We only have two seasons; football season, and waiting for football season


----------



## jswordy (Jun 7, 2013)

GaDawg said:


> We only have two seasons; football season, and waiting for football season



On the SEC, I rest my case: http://www.football.com/en-us/mississippi-state-placed-on-probation/

Only diff with MSU is they got caught.


----------

