# Dry Meadowfoam/Carrotblossom Traditional



## seth8530

So here is how it all started. I purchased a lb of carrot blossom and fireweed honey.

And I started thinking about making a mead. Because that is what honey does to you.

The carrot blossom honey that I purchased has a nice dark powerful floral flavor profile. So im thinking it would make a good body honey for my mead.


So I figured, I did not want a mono-toned mead ( no matter how nice of a tone that is) and decided something creamy would be nice with the carrot blossom... 

Enter Meadow-foam.. a magical and mystical honey known best for having a curios marshmallow ish flavor.

So here is the recipie as of now.

18 lbs of carrot blossom honey
18lb meadowfoam honey
RC212 yeast
4-5 oz of heavy-toast french oak cubes.
Fermaid K for nutrients 
Hydrate the yeast in goferm..
Follow a rigorous fermentation schedule
Ferment around 65F if possible.

Add water untill sg hits 1.116 and hope that it will ferment dry.

Any thoughts or opinions


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## Deezil

Gotta ask... Why RC212? I'd think there might be better yeasts for meads unless it does something you're looking for in this batch? Just curious..

32lbs of honey is gonna make a good-sized batch of mead


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> Gotta ask... Why RC212? I'd think there might be better yeasts for meads unless it does something you're looking for in this batch? Just curious..
> 
> 32lbs of honey is gonna make a good-sized batch of mead


Yeah, I plan on making a 12 gallon batch lol
I am using RC212 primary because it has a high abv tolerance and will most likely go dry, and I think that it is less likely than ec-1118 to blow out some of the delicate aromatics.

Also

"Known for its ability to generate ripe berry, bright fruit and spicy characteristics and to consistently produce Pinot Noir with good tannin structure. "

If it is indeed bright fruit and spicy that could add a level of complexity. What would you recommend? I am open to suggestions but #1 it must be able to ferment me dry.


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## Deezil

Dry to what ABV?
Theres a lot of choices i've been looking into lately, if you're not in a time crunch (if you have time to wait for the mail)

Only reason i wondered about RC212 is because its primarily a red wine yeast.. And i dunno about the "spice" in a mead, but ive never used RC212 because i dont like the "spicy" wines & its listed as have that spice characteristic, no matter who's website i read 

I just used a yeast called Rhone 4600 on my blackberry wine, although its recommended for whites and roses, ive rather enjoyed the selection/pairing

"Due to its' high level of polysaccharide production, Rhone 4600 contributes intense mouthfeel and volume to a finished wine. In addition, Rhone 4600 helps create complex aromatic notes along with a high degree of ester production. In whites like Viognier, Marsanne, Roussane, and Chardonnay there is an emphases on pineapple, pear, and apple. When used in Roses made from Mouvedre, Grenache and Syrah, intense, elegant, fresh strawberry becomes the focus." ..... That's what sold me on it..


GRE & BA-11 both sound like yeasts i'll be using in the future, even though they both list "spicy" attributes

I'll still "feeling out" the differences between R-HST with its "transparency between a fruit and a finished wine".. And W15, "ferment dry whites at moderate speeds where bright fruit and heavy mouthfeel are desired"

You want options? Lotsa options


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## fatbloke

I'd go with D21 by first preference, or K1-V1116 as second preference. Both are excellent for traditionals, without being nutrient hogs, like RC-212

The spicy etc description alludes to grape musts, honey doesn't have the flavouring compounds to achieve that.

RC-212 is "known" as a red wine yeast mainly because of its colour extraction and retention ability (as well as the nutrient thing and for.going "stinky" relatively easily). There's still no reason not to use it, just that personally I'd stick with my preferences, for a traditional......


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## Deezil

Right, I'm not saying not to, i was just curious why..

Thats interesting about the spice though, i always was curious if it was just a yeast attribute, no matter what you put it in, or if it was a grape compound reaction like you hint to

1116 is a nice yeast, i havent used D21 yet.. Was just trying to highlight some of the more uncommon ones i've been having fun reading about, since seth asked


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## seth8530

Hmm, thanks for the advice. I just purchased some kv1116. To give you guys an idea of what im after I want something with lots of character. Think red wine. I am using heavy toast french oak for a nice smokey flavour. I hope the meadowfoam will impart a marshmellow awesomeness. And possibly a dark flowery earthy flavour from the carrot blossom..

So the question is right now.. KV1116 or RC212?


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## Deezil

Thought about splitting the batch & blending?

Would increase the character of the wine for sure; just thoughts..

I've got a large-batch mead project in my head as well, i guess thats why im giving ya such a hard time


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## seth8530

Hmm, that would not be an awful idea except that I only have 1 vessel capable of holding over 6 gallons, so in my case that is not possible.... If only... BTW how long was it before your peach became worth drinking?


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## Deezil

I didnt consider the Peach of 2010 ready until it was 18 months old - but it was at its peak by then (still goin strong @ 26 months)... I dont enjoy drinking things early..

And just food for thought - you dont have to split the batch directly in half.. Or if you had a carboy or two, you could even fill them 2/3 full and pitch different yeasts in those, then do the rest in the larger vessel with whatever yeast your gut goes for - probably RC212 in this case


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## seth8530

Hmm, only issue is that I only have 2 6 gallon carboys with me.. I ordered 150$ worth of equipment so I could ferment away from home. Why the RC212 btw?

Yeah, waiting is the key to wine making


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## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> Why the RC212 btw?



Just figured you were attached to it 

So ya have a primary larger than 6 gallons, and 2 6 gallon carboys?

You could split the batch, but you wouldnt have a whole lot of choice on blending
Kinda where i'm at with my riesling batch... 2 3.5-gallon ferments & all i have are 5-gallons and 1-gallons; gonna have to blend shortly after fermentation

Just ideas lol


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## seth8530

Yeah, they are all good ideas lol. Im thinking about getting this batch started sometime around the middle of next week.


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## seth8530

Alright used 18 lbs meadowfoam 
18 lbs carrotblossom
10 grams of fermaidk
10grams RC212 dehydrated in go ferm
10grams Chestnut tannins
and enough water to take our OG to 1.113.

I plan on racking the mead onto 4.5 oz's of heavytoast french oak cubes once it has fermented dry.

I will add 10 grams of fermaid K once the SG reaches 1.0754 (1/3 sugarbreak)
and 10 more grams of fermaid K once the SG reached 1.0378 (2/3 sugarbreak)

Am I correct in saying that the sugar breaks are calculated by using OG-FG/3 is the ammount of sugar drop in a 1/3 break. So I can then subtract that from the OG to get the 1/3 sugar break and subtract that once more to get the 2/3 sugar break?


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## Deezil

Fermaid-K/O is usually recommended as 1/2 the dose just-after yeast pitch, and the other 1/2 dose between 1/3 - 1/2 sugar depletion..

If i remember right, DAP (in K but not O) is not recommended for adding after the 1/2-sugar break because the yeast wont consume it or it switches them back to colony building or something.. It's fuzzy & my computer loves to crash..

1.075-ish nutrient addition sounds right though


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## seth8530

You are correct with that one. I dont have time to order any more nutrient (or money) So what I will do for the 2/3 sugar break is add in some boiled yeast hulls.


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## seth8530

Ok fermentation has clearly started with a couple inch thick foam cap on top. The mead smells slightly fruity strawberry ess smell to it. No sulfur or off smells yet. I added 12 grams fermaid K

Current gravity is around 1.110


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## seth8530

Sg was 1.090 on 10/30/2012. I added 6 oz's of Heavy toast french oak into the primary inside of 2 separate pantyhose's

Once primary is done I will put one pantyhose of oak into each carboy.

I am considering adding some tea into one of the carboys. Anythoughts?


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## seth8530

Added 11 grams of Fermaid K Sg is 1.074 11/2/12


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## seth8530

11/5/12

Added the remainder of the 80 grams of fermaid K as well as a few tablespoons of boiled bread yeast. 

SG 1.040


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## seth8530

11/9/12 Sg 1.020.

Fermentation is slowing on down but is still moving at a moderate clip. Hopefully by the end of next week it will be ready for secondary.


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## seth8530

OK! Major developments!! Today the mead was racked into two separate 6 gallon carboys. Each received half of the original oak However, I was not able to completely fill up both carboys. In fact one of them was 1 and half gallons shy....

Thus this has developed into 2 sister meads. A tale of two meads.....

The first carboy has a current gravity of 1.005 and is as the original recipie entails. Current ABV 13.5%

The second carboy got topped off with a gallon and half of 100% pure cranberry juice ( the stuff is expensive) plus 16 oz's water.

It too originaly fermented down to 1.005. However the cranberry juice raised the sg up to 1.008. The current ABV is obtained from

13.5% X (6 gallons-1.5-.125) This gives us the total alcohol in the mead. This ends up being .59 gallons of pure alcohol.

(.59gallons/6 gallons)*100 gives us an abv of 9.84% 
If this is to ferment dry down to .996 we get
.09 gallons of alcohol going from 1.008 to .996
add .09 to .59 divide by 6 gallons we get abv of 11.33% 

Obviously I am hoping that the sg drops below .996







free photo hosting


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## seth8530

Took a small sip from each carboy last night. 

The cranberry melomel is going to turn out quite nicely I believe. The front end is of cranberry (not as strong as it used to be thankfully....) and follows up with a nice almost creaminess on the finish with a noticeable tartness. I intend on back sweetening this one up just enough to balance that out.

The bastard meadowfoam is doing quite well also. It is dry like the cranberry is at this point but its flavour profile is pretty much kind of a smokey creamy taste much like the cranberry has underneath its cranberry flavours. I still intend on letting this one stay dry.


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## seth8530

Hopefully, I will be able to give these guys another taste relatively soon.


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## Downwards

Taste it yet?


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## seth8530

It will prob be around a week before i have a chance to taste it: /


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## seth8530

Did not taste yet but oh my these two guys smell amazing. They both have very strong smells that would remind you sticking your nose in a warm bee hive.. so not just a honey smell but a smell that kind of smells like what i imagine a hive would smell like
. Ie honey and honey by products..


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## seth8530

Managed to rack both the cranberry and non cranberry versions of this mead tonight. I had to top off each with aprox 2 bottlea of peach wine at 12 abv and 1.008 sg. The sg of the ceamberry melomel was at 1.001 the other at. 998. The cranberry is most like the most amazingly floral mead i havr ever smelt. It smells amazing. I will post pics wheni get the chance... flavour wise... neither is ready but they both have a very floral taste as well. Imagine tasting what flowers smell like.. so i am very excited to see what these guys will be lie 6.months from now.


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## FABulousWines

It sounds like you got a couple of good brews going there. Is it wine-thirty yet? Seth is making me thirsty.


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## Downwards

I've always wondered about that "flower" taste. It seems reasonable that honey being concentrated flower juice, if it had it's sugars removed you should be left with concentrated floral aromas. Different of course for the processes, but still recognizable I'd think.


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## seth8530

Yeah, well this is so floral you would think its eccence of purfume or soap smell good stuff minus the chemicals. I hope it will remain in the mead as it ages.


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## seth8530

seth8530 said:


> OK! Major developments!! Today the mead was racked into two separate 6 gallon carboys. Each received half of the original oak However, I was not able to completely fill up both carboys. In fact one of them was 1 and half gallons shy....
> 
> Thus this has developed into 2 sister meads. A tale of two meads.....
> 
> The first carboy has a current gravity of 1.005 and is as the original recipie entails. Current ABV 13.5%
> 
> The second carboy got topped off with a gallon and half of 100% pure cranberry juice ( the stuff is expensive) plus 16 oz's water.
> 
> It too originaly fermented down to 1.005. However the cranberry juice raised the sg up to 1.008. The current ABV is obtained from
> 
> 13.5% X (6 gallons-1.5-.125) This gives us the total alcohol in the mead. This ends up being .59 gallons of pure alcohol.
> 
> (.59gallons/6 gallons)*100 gives us an abv of 9.84%
> If this is to ferment dry down to .996 we get
> .09 gallons of alcohol going from 1.008 to .996
> add .09 to .59 divide by 6 gallons we get abv of 11.33%
> 
> Obviously I am hoping that the sg drops below .996
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> free photo hosting



Updating this calculation for my cranberry mead only reaching 1.001 I have came up with my current ABV to be around 10.75% It is likely to be a little higher since I used some 12% ish peach wine to top off with. .But this is the general ball park ABV of this guy. Also, this fella turned 7 months old not way too long ago.. I look forward to putting this guy in the bottle around December.


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## seth8530

Well, they are 275 days old now 9 months..2 days... Happily sitting in the basement 350 miles away from me /: I hope to pay them a visit in a week or two. I might go ahead and bottle them to free up some room for my upcoming grape fermentations.


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## seth8530

Ok,

Cranberry,

This guy is easily the best smelling wine I have ever smelt. It smells strongly of a flowery lilac jasmanish awesome smell. The taste is much like the nose but with a very notable tartness from the cranberry on the back-end. Gravity is around 1.000 I am debating whether if or how much to sweeten this guy. Very hard decision.

Non-Cranberry,

It has aromas much like like the cranberry, but the abv higher and thus it is still a little harsh. This guy needs some time before I can determine if it needs to be sweetened. Still very promising. 

I am very excited about these meads and I look forward to submitting them to the mazers cup this spring. As of right now the cranberry mead has my highest hopes.


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## seth8530

Today, checked the meads out and was frightened to find that both of them have taken on a yellowish hue. I immediately took samples from both versions. The cranberry is no longer red but much more of an orange colour. The non cranberry infused batch smells quite floral still and slightly sweet for sitting at around 1.000. I was relieved to find out from tasting that these guys are not oxidized as I originally feared. It looks like they are still progressing on along as they march towards the one year mark. 

Topped both batches up with sulfited marbles.


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## seth8530

Tried out the meads today. 

The cranberry is pretty much done. I just need to order some meadow foam or carrot blossom for it to back sweetin it just a hare with.. ( I tried adding sugar to my glass and just the slightest amount helped it out.. but the slightest bit more took away from it)

The normal mead is tasting pretty good, relatively complex with a wine like body. One of the more interesting flavours that was hinted out from it was a nugent marshmellow ish like flavour which I associate with certain Irish whiskies and scotches.

It has a lot of floral and then has a wine like acidity with it.

Normal mead gravity is around .998

Cranberry mead is sitting at 1.000

I added sorbate to both batches to make sure renewed fermentation will not come around eventually in the bottle since neither of these went 100% dry.
I plan on aging the non cranberry mead for another 6 months before touching it again.


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## seth8530

Backsweetened the cranberry mead with around 90 grams of carrot blossom honey ( it did not need much... Ie I only added enough to help assist with the cranberry bite a bit). Tasting it, I realized that it felt like it was missing a bit of something so I racked it, and added a medium+ french oak stave in to keep it company and 4 grams of booster rouge, I am hoping that this will help lend it a bit of structure. I will check on this guy again in a month or two and hopefully bottle then.


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## seth8530

It seems the cranberry mead is getting very close to getting ready. I think the oak addition really helped bring it to where I wanted it to be. I will taste again in a couple of weeks to see if it is ready to be bottled. It seems the oak adds a nice kind of campfire taste and mouthfeel to it which comes after the cranberry and melds with the honey a bit.

The non oaked mead is doing quite well too. I think the flavours are coming around again. I added a medium toast american oak spriral to it, so I will taste it when I taste the cranberry mead.


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## seth8530

Cranberry mead has been bottled! Detailed pictures and tasting notes are forthcoming.. Adding the additional oak was a winner of an idea!


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## seth8530

So lessons learned! Anything with a decent amount of acid in it should be cold stabilized. When I put the cranberry mead in the fridge it clouded up on me. However, it seems to have not affected the taste.

Taste is slightly honey like, but mostly cranberry tartness. Backed up by a campfire oakyness that is better expressed at warmer temperatures. 

The final gravity of this guy was around 1.001 putting the final abv at around 10.5%. I plan on entering this mead into the mazers cup for some good critical feed back. If one member of the community would like to to have a 750 ml bottle please send me a PM or post in this thread and I will see what I can do. Please make sure you are in the US though that way I do not have to send across federal lines.

I feel like I hit the balance on this mead just about right for my taste, often times it is easy to make a mead that taste good for a few sips, but after awhile gets a little bit sweet. However, this one is more on the tart side of balance, so I feel like this might be a little bit easier to keep sipping on compared to a really honey forward mead.


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## mmadmikes1

How did I miss this thread. (O ya left until I got fast internet) Loved reading. God I love good info sharing


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## Downwards

I'd like to try one! I'll trade u for a bottle of my elderberry bochet if you want. PM me if you're interested..


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## seth8530

deal! PM inbound!


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## seth8530

Ok! So, yee old standard mead was starting to taste kind of oak a tad tid too oak forward so we decided to rack it off the oak and superklear today. I hope that when the oak dies down some, that the mead will end up having an extra layer of complexity.


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## seth8530

So, it turns out the cranberry mead was not qutie as clear as I suspected it was. It is more than clear enough for enjoyment and serving. However, it is certainly not competition clear. 

I currently have three bottles in the deepfreezer at 28F trying to get all the sediment to drop out before I send this guy off the mazers cup.


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## SouthernChemist

seth8530 said:


> So, it turns out the cranberry mead was not qutie as clear as I suspected it was. It is more than clear enough for enjoyment and serving. However, it is certainly not competition clear.
> 
> I currently have three bottles in the deepfreezer at 28F trying to get all the sediment to drop out before I send this guy off the mazers cup.



How would you describe the taste of this mead at this point? I recently tried a cranberry mead that also had chili peppers added to it. It was interesting...tangy, fruity, and a little honey note followed by a little heat from the pepper. Not something I would sit around and drink regularly, though.


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## seth8530

SouthernChemist said:


> How would you describe the taste of this mead at this point? I recently tried a cranberry mead that also had chili peppers added to it. It was interesting...tangy, fruity, and a little honey note followed by a little heat from the pepper. Not something I would sit around and drink regularly, though.




The taste is kind of floral up front with a tartness followed by a slight smokey woodiness and finished up with a kind of honey taste. I left my mead on the dry side. I sent some of it out to the mazers cup today, so I will post the results when they come in that way we can all see an objective opinion of the mead.

All in all, I like it but my heart is really in it with the more potent non cranberry version I have going. I am considering adding some tannin to it.. Maybe.. Maybe not.


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## Downwards

Well, I promised seth i would give this a review since he was kind enough to send me a bottle. I want to start by saying that since I haven't ever tasted meads other than one commercial offering that was terrible- and my own two or three attempts, I don't really have much of a base to speak from, nor much language for it. But who cares, I can taste it right?
First thing on this mead is the fragrance. It really shocked me how floral (almost perfume like) it is. I guess that stands to reason. Flower juice sans the sugar leaves behind something more floral than honey like huh? The taste is the same, but with a hit of cranberry thats unmistakeable. The floral aroma is unlike anything I've smelled before. It makes me want to get out and smell some of the flowers this honey came from for a match. I'll bet it is there.
As much as I say it is almost perfume like, i really enjoyed the flavor.. That's only odd to me as I wouldn't think I would enjoy the taste of something described that way. Very delicate, with a spicy note as it washes over the tongue.
Only criticism i have (and I'm not really sure if it IS one) is that I wonder what it would be like without the cranberry tartness. I don't know if it is too tart for a mead so dry.. I like it so much (and have so little to compare it to) though that I cant really say for sure. 

Which do you like better Seth?


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## seth8530

Thanks for the review, I am glad to see that it was not my imagination when I said it smelt floral. I was up in arms when I was back sweetining it, in the past I had ruined a mead by adding back too much honey so I was very carefully this time around. The reason why I kept it so dry was because I felt it started to cover up some of the non honey flavours. However, I can certainly understand why you might like it a bit better if it was not quite as tart.

The other mead is around 3% abv higher ( around 13%) and is a little bit stronger on the oak and has no cranberry in it. Ie, it is the mead you had, but with more oak in it, and no cranberry to dilute the honey flavour. I think I am going to add some Uva Tan to it (grape tannins) and let it finish out its aging.

At this point, I am not sure which one I like better, but I am more apt to say with time I will prob enjoy the traditional a bit better. However, it is at this point only around 16 months old so it might be a bit hard to tell.


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## seth8530

So after leaving the un frutied mead in the deep freezer for a month at 29 F I noticed that I had dropped over an inch of leas.. Where in the world did all these guys come from! I would of figured these guys would of dropped out somewhere over the past 15 months! Does anyone here have any experience with issues like this? I am going to rack the mead off the leas tomorrow and add some Uva Tan to it to give it a little bit of structure in addition to the previous oak addition. After that, if I do not have a sufficiently large carboy to fit it in I will bottle after a few weeks.


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## seth8530

Racked from a 6 gallon to a 5 gallon carboy of the meadowfoam mead. Lost around 1.5 gallons. The amount of sediment that dropped in the freezer was insane, no idea where it came from. Decided to add .1g/L of Uva tan grape tannin to the mead since I figured it already had enough wood tannin from the oak addition. The French oak definitely plays a strong role in the flavour profile. 

I have around a half gallon of head space and to be honest I really do not have anything to top it off with. The sulfites read 50+ PPM so I am hoping that the sulfites along with the natural properties of honey will help prevent oxidation for the next 3-6 weeks. ( amount of time the tannins need prior to being put into a bottle.)


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## seth8530

The cranberry mead won second place in the mazers cup international in the dry melomel category! Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I will post the scorecard when it gets here from the mail!


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## SouthernChemist

seth8530 said:


> The cranberry mead won second place in the mazers cup international in the dry melomel category! Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I will post the scorecard when it gets here from the mail!



Very nice! Congratulations! I'm sure it feels great knowing you have that sort of feedback about a mead you've made. I'm sure it tastes great, too!


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## seth8530

Ha, well thanks. The feedback is definitely the best part about it. I cant wait to get the scorecard in.

BTW, I plan on consolidating this thread by putting all of the important notes into a PDF or new thread that way the actual process will be a bit easier to follow.


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## Downwards

Congrats Seth! I knew you would do very well!



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## seth8530

Thanks! BTW, you still owe me some mead (;
BTW, compilation is now complete and uploaded as a PDF. I am posting the PDF here and in the recipe section. 

View attachment A Touch Of Cranberry Melomel.pdf


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## Downwards

Coming soon i promise! After the last shipping fiasco, I'll be sending it back in your awesome packaging. Just need to find a little time to bottle again. That was the last bit of the earlier bottling. I will send you some blackberry jam wine with it.


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## seth8530

Ha, cool. You know I think that piece of packaging originaly came from danger dave. I look forward to receiving it.


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## vernsgal

Congratulations Seth! and thanks for the great post. I enjoyed the read


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## seth8530

I am glad you enjoyed it. I like the feedback, It helps me to write these things if I know people read them.


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## seth8530

And here on the scorecards for those whom might be curious. I myself was rather surprised I scored as high as I did. It goes to show that in competitions like this every single point counts.


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## vernsgal

seth8530 said:


> And here on the scorecards for those whom might be curious. I myself was rather surprised I scored as high as I did. It goes to show that in competitions like this every single point counts.



Thats awesome Seth! Good on you!!!


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## SouthernChemist

Nicely done! I know I'd be pretty nervous to see such explicit reviews of something I made, but it definitely looks like they enjoyed the mead. Interesting that they differed on the aroma notes. What really makes it worth it though is the little checked box stating they would buy your mead. Reading the reviews makes me want to try it. 

If you ever open a meadery, I think you know your first product!


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## seth8530

You know, I was actually looking forward to the explicit reviews since the last competition I entered (Wine Maker magazine) gave the most useless comments ever. Yeah, I thought it was rather interesting how the two judges differed so much on the notes. But I guess that is to be expected. When I get the chance I will taste it with the notes and see which set of notes I agree more with.

Yeah, I am kind of wanting to give this guy another try since he turned out so well... However, I am also mulling the idea of making a sack mead.... So many choices.

If I ever open a meadery.... Now that their is one of my favorite pipe dreams....


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## SouthernChemist

seth8530 said:


> If I ever open a meadery.... Now that their is one of my favorite pipe dreams....



Dreams have been known to come true from time to time...


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## seth8530

Anyone ever tell you that you guys are a bad influence?


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## SouthernChemist

seth8530 said:


> Anyone ever tell you that you guys are a bad influence?



There's a local meadery here that is about 3 years old now, I think. Their business is really taking off from the looks of things. Last time I was there, they had about 15 different meads you could pick 6-7 from to taste. Quite a variety. Helps that there is really nothing else around here like it.


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## seth8530

Good point, and one of the advantages of honey is that your supply is shelf stable year round.


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## SouthernChemist

Yep...good way to support local beekeepers, too!


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## seth8530

Indeed it is, shame the beekeepers around where I live only tend to do wildflower.... And want way more than their honey is worth /:


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## vernsgal

seth8530 said:


> Indeed it is, shame the beekeepers around where I live only tend to do wildflower.... And want way more than their honey is worth /:



The same goes here!


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## SouthernChemist

It can be difficult, from what I understand, to ensure the bees produce single-source honey. Even if it's wildflower/whatever is flowering honey, though, it can be different. My dad had a couple of his hives located in an area about 20-30 miles from this other hives and in a swamp/coastal area at that. The honey he got from those hives was noticeably darker than the honey from the other hives. 

But you're right about the price being high, too. I'm sure part of that has to do with some people being willing to pay whatever for a natural or 'organic' product. My dad doesn't sell his honey, but he has had people tell him to just name his price for a jar. 

Course, the solution is to just have your own bees with your own meadery. The bees could be employees...just not for tax purposes!


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## seth8530

Yeah, I can see why it could be expensive..

However, you prompt another major advantage that a meadery has over a winery... The infrastructure needed to make your product is ready to produce much faster than vines are... And if you want another kind of honey, all you have to do is move the hives instead of growing new vines.


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## Deezil

It's a little more complex than that, Seth

It would actually, probably, take roughly the same time to build an apiary to the size of handling a meadery as it would take to grow enough vines for a winery. 

Depends on how you do it though; there's as many ways to keep bees as there is to make wine; But it's something I'm learning about and interested in myself.. PM me if you really wanna get into it, I dont wanna completely derail this thread - or if a few of you PM me, I'll start a thread on it 

But they probably call it 'wildflower' because there's over-lapping blooms nearby and they dont have access to large mono-crops or regions where there's only 1-2 things blooming at a time


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## SouthernChemist

seth8530 said:


> Yeah, I can see why it could be expensive..
> 
> However, you prompt another major advantage that a meadery has over a winery... The infrastructure needed to make your product is ready to produce much faster than vines are... And if you want another kind of honey, all you have to do is move the hives instead of growing new vines.



You'd still be limited in when you could harvest honey...so it wouldn't be too different from waiting to harvest grapes. Depending on your area, you could maybe have more than one honey flow a year. I'm no expert on that, however. 

Course, the only advantage of a meadery over a winery is the flexibility with what you make. Rather than planting different varietals of grapes, each with their own personalities, you can use the same honey to make different products.


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> It's a little more complex than that, Seth
> 
> It would actually, probably, take roughly the same time to build an apiary to the size of handling a meadery as it would take to grow enough vines for a winery.
> 
> Depends on how you do it though; there's as many ways to keep bees as there is to make wine; But it's something I'm learning about and interested in myself.. PM me if you really wanna get into it, I dont wanna completely derail this thread - or if a few of you PM me, I'll start a thread on it
> 
> But they probably call it 'wildflower' because there's over-lapping blooms nearby and they dont have access to large mono-crops or regions where there's only 1-2 things blooming at a time



True true, I did not mean to dismiss the difficulty of owning enough hives as to supply a meadery. However, I meant the emphasize the flexibility of what you can make with a single investment. I would be interested in owning some hives. However, at the moment I am still attending university in a fairly large city, so I am not sure my apartment owner would appreciate it (; If you have some good materialI would still be interested in reading up on it though.

How long do you think it would take to get some bees producing say 300 gallons of honey a year?



SouthernChemist said:


> You'd still be limited in when you could harvest honey...so it wouldn't be too different from waiting to harvest grapes. Depending on your area, you could maybe have more than one honey flow a year. I'm no expert on that, however.
> 
> Course, the only advantage of a meadery over a winery is the flexibility with what you make. Rather than planting different varietals of grapes, each with their own personalities, you can use the same honey to make different products.



Is honey production a year round deal? Or is it as limited as the American grape season? 

The product flexibility is quite nice as you have mentioned.


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## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> How long do you think it would take to get some bees producing say 300 gallons of honey a year?



300/gal per year @ 12lbs honey per gallon - you could probably pull that off in 4-5 years, realistically, with 45-50 hives - but this is all very location-dependent. 

If you bought them as packages or nucs, all 45-50, the first year would be spent buying the package/nuc of bees, and building them up, letting them keep all their honey to winter on, and the second year they would be a full-size hive, and give you a honey crop. (but thats a lot of work, and if it's your first year at it, i'd bet you'll lose a few, having that many)

If you only started with, say 5-10 hives, you would spend the first year or two letting them grow, and maybe splitting off a nucleus colony or three, from each; the next year would be letting everything grow to full size and then you'd be able to pull the first honey crop - so it really depends on what you're starting with, where you're trying to go, and how you want to get there.. And thats not factoring in winter losses from starvation, fall losses from mites, and the occasional bear losses one might suffer lol..




seth8530 said:


> Is honey production a year round deal? Or is it as limited as the American grape season?



I know it wasnt addressed to me, but...

From early spring to late fall, but theres 'blooms' and 'dearths' - times when theres an abundance of nectar and pollen, and times when theres none; the activity level involved with keeping up with the bees, increases and decreases alongside their activities. Then there's making splits, raising queens, honey harvesting, few other things lol..


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> 300/gal per year @ 12lbs honey per gallon - you could probably pull that off in 4-5 years, realistically, with 45-50 hives - but this is all very location-dependent.
> 
> If you bought them as packages or nucs, all 45-50, the first year would be spent buying the package/nuc of bees, and building them up, letting them keep all their honey to winter on, and the second year they would be a full-size hive, and give you a honey crop. (but thats a lot of work, and if it's your first year at it, i'd bet you'll lose a few, having that many)
> 
> 
> 
> If you only started with, say 5-10 hives, you would spend the first year or two letting them grow, and maybe splitting off a nucleus colony or three, from each; the next year would be letting everything grow to full size and then you'd be able to pull the first honey crop - so it really depends on what you're starting with, where you're trying to go, and how you want to get there.. And thats not factoring in winter losses from starvation, fall losses from mites, and the occasional bear losses one might suffer lol..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know it wasnt addressed to me, but...
> 
> From early spring to late fall, but theres 'blooms' and 'dearths' - times when theres an abundance of nectar and pollen, and times when theres none; the activity level involved with keeping up with the bees, increases and decreases alongside their activities. Then there's making splits, raising queens, honey harvesting, few other things lol..



I see what you are saying, I guess just like wine making it is best to start off making 5 gallons instead of 50. Are these things you call bees work every day or are they kind of like mushrooms sit and forget except you got to change the sh!K out every now and then?


So, either way, it does sound like you have more honey gathering options than you have grape picking options... 

Ha BTW, I just found out I will be spending the summer in Oregon 45 miles away from the place that supplies me honey all the way to TN. I think I am going to load up while I am there and save on some shipping.


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## SouthernChemist

As Deezil said, it would be a lot of work to get up to a 300 gallon production level. Not impossible, though. Bees are interesting in that they're not truly under your control...you can certainly influence them and motivate them to do things, but they have their own (collective) will. 

My dad only got started in beekeeping because a swarm landed on a fence post at our farm. He's up to about 12 hives now, I think, after a couple years. A few weekends ago, when the weather finally turned warm and dry, he spent all weekend catching swarms and splitting hives. Apparently, his bees held up over the winter well despite the colder temps and ice storms they had down there this past winter.


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## seth8530

Wow sounds pretty awesume. Good to hear that the buzzing fellas are fairly robust. So I guess the qeustion is whether or not it is easier to herd bees or cats.


So since my brother was going to be bottling 11 gallons of beer I decided I might as well take this as my chance to go ahead and get the mead bottled. After around 5 hours going from prep work to cleanup we managed to setup the pump/filter setup, filter the mead bottle 11 gallons of beer, bottle around 24 bottles worth of my dry mead and rebottle some cloudy bottles of the cranberry mead into beer bottles so that they are now clear.

As you can see from the picture the mead quit at around 1.00 on the gravity scale So 131*(1.113-1.00)=14.8% So after various additions and dilutions from the filter setup and the such I am willing to say the wine is at the least a very solid 14%.

Over all the aroma is very floral, the flavour still needs a bit of work. Time will tell if the grape tannins were a good idea or not since the mead now has a slightly tart grape flavour to it now. It is still a little bit hot and needs some time to bottle age. I hope this will help it integrate a bit. The oak plays very well with the mead.

So overall the flavour goes floral to slight tart then pleasant oaky smoke and vanilla and finally dry grape tannin finish. I hope that with some more time it will all integrate a bit better. I plan on entering this guy into the mazers cup next year, by then it should be around 28 months old.


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## seth8530

So, the cranberry mead started dropping pretty heavy sediment in the bottles after over a year and a half bulk aging. And the dry mead started dropping some of the tannin I added a few weeks prior to fermentation. I ended up sticking them in the chiller at 28 degrees for a couple weeks and then decanted and re bottled them after filtering with a polish filter. Over all, they look pretty darn good if I do say so myself. I hope this will be the end of the fluffy sediment.

Next time I make a mead I will be sure to cold stabilize for a few weeks prior to bottling since it seems stuff you would not really expect enjoys to start dropping out when it starts getting a bit cold.


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## WVMountaineerJack

Seth, proteins in the honey, sparkaloid takes it out pretty good. How did the meadowfoam and carrot mead turn out with almost 2 years aging? WVMJ


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## seth8530

Yeah, I figured the fluffy stuff was protein. I think I used superklear on it at one point actually. So I am a bit mystified about why that stuff developed in the cranberry mead.

It has turned out pretty good to be honest. Good aroma, great color. After the tannins dropped out the harshness went down a bit. However, I think it still needs more time to mellow out the alcohol. If I pop one open soon, I will give some more detailed notes though. I will enter it into the mazers cup international this spring and see what they thinkg too.


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## Tenbears

Strictly out of curiosity, by what means are you determining the honey you are using is meadowfoam , and carrot. Both are extremely limited and often counterfeited. For example Carrot honey which comes from nectar of the carrot blossom is somewhat rare. The problem with acquisition is that the carrot takes two seasons to produce flowers, The Tap root (carrot) is produced the first season and harvested as a vegetable, leaving nothing to produce flowers. Only seed producing farmers grow carrots long enough to blossom. 85% of all carrot seeds are grown in Jefferson county and portions of adjacent counties in Oregon. In which the record planting was recorded in 2011 or just over 4200 acres. A fair % of which is the warm Springs Indian reservation which as far as I last knew would not allow non tribal individuals to place hives on the reservation. The period in which the carrot is in blossom is short lived making this honey a rare fine for most individuals. Add that to the fact that the USDA, nor the FDA has mandates on the labeling of plant specific honey, allows anyone to label any honey as carrot, wildflower, or anything they choose. The only way to know is with a microscope and a pollen chart. Toss into the mix the fact that the flavor of meadowfoam can be simulated by adding vanilla to honey and it makes a whole new ballgame.


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## seth8530

The only form of validation I am using is trust in my supplier ( http://www.flyingbeeranch.net/, mom and pop joint in Salem Oregon) and the fact that it taste like what is supposed to according to the descriptions I have read of the honey. Other than that I guess all I have is trust. Either way, the honey taste top notch so it is kind of hard to bash it.


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## Tenbears

That would be a great place to get it from as both Honeys are regional verities from the pacific north west. Mom And Pop Type operations are always the best to secure honey and honey products IMHO. With the Chinese constantly developing new and better ways to filter, flavor, and infuse honeys It is a roll of the dice when purchasing any honey from a box store. I also discourage purchasing any honey that has a country origin other than Canada or The USA. the latter being my personal preference. But I may be a bit bias. China uses Argentina, Brazil, and Peru, to illegally import un-tariffed government subsidized Chinese Honey into the US. Recent studies have now discovered that their filtration techniques are being used to import into the U.S. honey that is banned because of chemical contaminants, and antibiotic use. 

Understand I am in no way condemning any north American honey producer, Nor Argentinian or Brazilian for that matter, I just would like everyone to understand the facts in regard to safety and fair market practices sidestepped by The Chinese government.


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## seth8530

Sure thing, and also just because a honey is a certain varietal does not make it equal to all others. Quality counts and so does the care in processing.


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## seth8530

Speaking of the such. I just tried the dry mead, it is right around 2 years old and I think it has just now came around. Nothing really seems out of place. Good aroma, brilliantly clear, tannins from the oak and additives are right in place. It has a pretty nice sense of balance between aroma, oak and alcohol if not a little un traditional perhaps. I have a hard time finding anything wrong with it. That being said, I look forward to seeing what the MCI will say in spring since their is always more to the story than nothing being out of place.


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## seth8530

Annd the MCI has spoken, the dry mead took 2nd. So, both meads that were born from this batch of honey took 2nd, at different years. The traditional dry mead and the cranberry mead.

Woot!


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