# White Grape Prep



## winemaker_3352 (Aug 5, 2010)

I am going to making Chardonel and Seyval wines this summer from grapes.

I have read that primary fermentation does not benefit from the grape skins and to press the juice off right away and ferment the juice only.

Is this true? If so - should i not worry about adding pectic?


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## Julie (Aug 5, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I am going to making Chardonel and Seyval wines this summer from grapes.
> 
> I have read that primary fermentation does not benefit from the grape skins and to press the juice off right away and ferment the juice only.
> 
> Is this true? If so - should i not worry about adding pectic?



Wish I could help you out Jon, but I am more fruit that grapes at the moment but I hope to change that in the future. I have no idea if this is the same but I feel that the wine benefits from contact with the fruit more than just the juice. I think I would still add the peptic because that does aide in clearing. Hopefully Tom or Wade will jump in here to help you out.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks - will do. I know that reds benefit from the skins for the color. But with whites - they don't get a lot of color from the skins - possible extract too many tannins.

Anyway - this is just what i have read - but i thought i would find out from here - as i trust this site more than just googling around


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## Julie (Aug 5, 2010)

Nice compliment,

Like I said, I think Wade or Tom can give you better advice than what I can. Wade is usually on around 8. I think Tom pops in and out all day. I believe he is retired, DAM YOU TOM. That's what I wanna be!


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## Racer (Aug 5, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I am going to making Chardonel and Seyval wines this summer from grapes.
> 
> I have read that primary fermentation does not benefit from the grape skins and to press the juice off right away and ferment the juice only.
> 
> Is this true? If so - should i not worry about adding pectic?



Your right white wine from grapes usually is done by crushing/de-stemming the grapes. Then go straight to the press and press them right away. Since I can't do good temp control on big buckets of juice I let the juice settle out for about 3 hours and then rack off of the heavy pulp/sediment. Then I pitch my yeast of choice after that.

A dose of k-meta after crushing/ de-stemming is usually done to keep the juice from oxidizing. I add 1 quarter teaspoon of k-meta per 6 gallon bucket and stir it into the juice/crushed grapes by hand.


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## e-wine (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree with Racer but wanted to add that you can make a white wine with red grapes if you juice the grapes after harvest and not leave them on their skins. We may try that with some black spanish just to see what we get. We were going to do that with the mustang grapes but changed our minds and used the BdB in the madeira.

e-wine


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 6, 2010)

Sweet - thanks for the replies!!


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## grapeman (Aug 6, 2010)

I always begin with crushing/destemming the whites into a brute or whatever you have. I add k-meta to it and contrary to Wade, add the proper dose of pectic enzyme also then rather than waiting 24 hours(we all do things a bit differently). I then let this set overnight and will press out the following morning to noon time. The sitting time will help aid juice extraction and yield about 10-20% more juice than pressing immediately. 

Good luck with it. Chardonnel makes one of my favorite whites. It is a bit tender for here, but I have a good crop coming on this year.


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## Wade E (Aug 6, 2010)

When it comes to working with grapes I step aside to what Grapeman says as he is more knowledgeable in this area but now that I have al the toys Ill start catching up a little!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks grapeman - i love working with fruits and grapes - i have actually never done a kit before..

Wade - i am sure you will enjoy it just as much...


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 10, 2010)

Another question - how much water gets added in a 6.5 gallon batch?

Do i do something like 2-3 gallons - or do i just add water up to the 7 gallon mark?


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## Racer (Aug 10, 2010)

If your asking about needing to add water to your chardonel or seyval must the answer should be no. Both of those grapes should be able to hang long enough to get the #'s correct for wine making. The only time I add water to grape must is if the acidity is way off(too high) and can't be brought back to a good range without getting an off taste from the chemicals needed to reduce the acidity that way.


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## grapeman (Aug 10, 2010)

You should not need to add any water. To do so will dilute the flavor and body of the grape and is unnecessary to balance the wine.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks - i am planning on doing 18 #'s of grapes per pound for both.

Is that sufficient enough to produce enough juice for 6.5 gallons?


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## Racer (Aug 10, 2010)

I usually use 16 pounds per gallon to help me get close for what to expect from white grapes. Each variety will be a little different but it should be close enough.


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## grapeman (Aug 11, 2010)

Jon if you mean 18 pounds per gallon, yes that is plenty. If you mean 18 pounds per batch, then no it isn't enough. The Chardonel when nice and ripe yield juice very well.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah - sorry if that wasn't clear - i am planning on doing 18 # per gallon. So 7 gallon batch would total 126 #'s.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 11, 2010)

Would this wines gain anything by adding in toasted french oak chips? If so - do you add them in the primary fermentation - or during bulk again?

I have also read that for the seyval - the acid level should be higher than a chardonel wine - is this true?

The article indicated seyval should be between .75 an .90 and chardonel between .70 and .75.


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## grapeman (Aug 11, 2010)

I tried some oak with the chardonel. It is different than without it- both are very good. I like mine plain better though.

The Seyval will be a bit higher than the Chardonel. The acids you cite are about right to give a good balance for each.


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## Wade E (Aug 11, 2010)

If using chips you usually use them in primary as they have a lot of surface contact and will oak your wine fast, if using cubes or staves or spirals they atre beter during aging as they take longer to give and are much easier to control with tastings.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 12, 2010)

grapeman said:


> I always begin with crushing/destemming the whites into a brute or whatever you have. I add k-meta to it and contrary to Wade, add the proper dose of pectic enzyme also then rather than waiting 24 hours(we all do things a bit differently). I then let this set overnight and will press out the following morning to noon time. The sitting time will help aid juice extraction and yield about 10-20% more juice than pressing immediately.
> 
> Good luck with it. Chardonnel makes one of my favorite whites. It is a bit tender for here, but I have a good crop coming on this year.



Is there a need for tannin with these grapes? 

I am also planning on a starting SG of 1.095 - is this a good Starting SG?

What yeast strain do you use for these? I read that Seyval does really well with the Red Star Cote des Blancs - as far as the chardonel i am not sure, what do you recommend? I have 2 strains at home now (Red Star Cote des Blancs, Lavlin ICV D47, and Lalvin 71B 1122).


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## JohnT (Aug 12, 2010)

Racer said:


> If your asking about needing to add water to your chardonel or seyval must the answer should be no. Both of those grapes should be able to hang long enough to get the #'s correct for wine making. The only time I add water to grape must is if the acidity is way off(too high) and can't be brought back to a good range without getting an off taste from the chemicals needed to reduce the acidity that way.



Rather than adding water, do you see any problems with using Potassium Bi Carbonate?


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## JohnT (Aug 12, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Is there a need for tannin with these grapes?
> 
> I am also planning on a starting SG of 1.095 - is this a good Starting SG?
> 
> What yeast strain do you use for these? I read that Seyval does really well with the Red Star Cote des Blancs - as far as the chardonel i am not sure, what do you recommend? I have 2 strains at home now (Red Star Cote des Blancs, Lavlin ICV D47, and Lalvin 71B 1122).



For chardonnay, I use Lalvin D47 myself and have liked the results.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 12, 2010)

JohnT said:


> For chardonnay, I use Lalvin D47 myself and have liked the results.



Cool - that is what i was planning on using - but wanted to see what others recommended.


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## grapeman (Aug 12, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Is there a need for tannin with these grapes?
> 
> I am also planning on a starting SG of 1.095 - is this a good Starting SG?
> 
> What yeast strain do you use for these? I read that Seyval does really well with the Red Star Cote des Blancs - as far as the chardonel i am not sure, what do you recommend? I have 2 strains at home now (Red Star Cote des Blancs, Lavlin ICV D47, and Lalvin 71B 1122).


 

No need for tannins in a white.

That SG is fine for it, but I like to use what the grapes have supplied with their own sugars. I try for about 22 brix on these two.

You certainly do NOT need potassium bicarb on these if matured. The acids will be just about perfect. I use Cotes des Blanc on both of them also. The D-47 can eat up malic acid and can be used if they were picked too soon, otherwise it might drop the acid too much.

This is Chardonel you are talking about- not Chardonnay........


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 12, 2010)

Thanks so much - i know the vineyard harvests these grapes when the brix is 22.5 - 24. So they might have a little more sugar.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes - it is Chardonel.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 12, 2010)

grapeman said:


> No need for tannins in a white.
> 
> That SG is fine for it, but I like to use what the grapes have supplied with their own sugars. I try for about 22 brix on these two.
> 
> ...




I didn't know the D-47 ate up the malic acid - i thought it was just the Lalvin 71B 1122 that did that.


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## Racer (Aug 12, 2010)

JohnT said:


> Rather than adding water, do you see any problems with using Potassium Bi Carbonate?



As long as you stay in the range that is recommended you shouldn't have a problem using pot. bi carbonate but if the numbers are too far off to be able to bring you back into a good range then water back abit to get the acidity down. 

I should have used a big disclaimer before mentioning watering down a must. It should only be done to must that has a lot of flavor (wild or native grapes).You'll also probably have to do other things to get more mouth feel back because it will thin the wine out when water is added to a must.


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## grapeman (Aug 12, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I didn't know the D-47 ate up the malic acid - i thought it was just the Lalvin 71B 1122 that did that.


 

You are right there about that. I double checked records and you are right- I had them switched in my mind- dang old age! That's what happens when you make dozens of wines every year - it's hard remembering all the recipes and yeast selections for each one.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 18, 2010)

Did you have to perform cold stabilization on these wines?


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## grapeman (Aug 18, 2010)

I always cold stabilize the whites. It helps them remain clear when refrigerated before serving. If it drops a bit of acid no problem- it won't be a lot if it is fairly low to begin with.

I see they are almost ready for you to pick. Mine have begun veraison where normally it doesn't start until early September here on those varieties. Even my latest ones are now beginning to turn. Frontenac is beginning to turn black and has hit about 20 brix- a full month early this year!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 18, 2010)

Yup - sept 3rd is harvest day for me!!!

So if the seyval has an acid level of .80 - which should be normal for this wine - and i cold stabilize it - won't it affect the outcome of the wine?

As that is high and i would imagine that cold stabilization will drop the acid level a lot.


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## grapeman (Aug 19, 2010)

Just check pH and TA post fermentation. If it is still a bit high, cold stabilize it to drop a bit more. CS will only drop excessive acids, so if it is tending just a bit high, it won't have a lot to drop, so it will only move a bit, not a lot. If it is high, there is more it can drop.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks - i am assuming when you say "high" you are referring to an acid level higher the target range? So if i am within my target range - is it necessary to still perform CS?


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## BobF (Aug 19, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I am going to making Chardonel and Seyval wines this summer from grapes.
> 
> I have read that primary fermentation does not benefit from the grape skins and to press the juice off right away and ferment the juice only.
> 
> Is this true? If so - should i not worry about adding pectic?


 

Everything you ever wanted to know - from Mt Grove, MO:

http://mtngrv.missouristate.edu/MWFHU/MWFHUweb.pdf

This is an excellent doc, with great back-info. I've spent 1:1 time with Karl (one of the authors), he's a very smart guy!


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## grapeman (Aug 19, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Thanks - i am assuming when you say "high" you are referring to an acid level higher the target range? So if i am within my target range - is it necessary to still perform CS?


 

It is never "necessary" to perform CS, however if you wish to chill those wines-being whites, you risk a haze in the wine and possible wine diamonds if you don't do it. You greatly reduce the haze in your wine and help keep it clean in the bottle. It is just a personal preference if you don't need it to drop the acid.

I'm assuming by your reluctance to do it that you don't have a good way to do so. By the time the wine has fermented and cleared, it will be getting the right temps to put in a protected shed or garage to CS the wine without a refrigerator. If you just can't do it, no real big deal.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 19, 2010)

You are correct - i don't have the equipment to properly do CS - that is why i am asking.

I know that it can benefit the wine - but if i can't do it was wondering if the batch would be lost - but i think you answered that.

I just found a used fridge on craigslist for $50 - so maybe i will be able to CS!!!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 20, 2010)

Is using a crusher alright with these grapes or should i just press them?

I have both and i was thinking to crush them - add the k-meta and pectic wait 24 hours and then press the juice off for fermentation.


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## AlFulchino (Aug 21, 2010)

i find that crushing/destemming facilitates a better press result


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## grapeman (Aug 21, 2010)

In agreement with Al, yes crush/destem them first, use pectic enzyme and press later.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 23, 2010)

I don't have a mechanical destemmer - other than picking the grapes off by hand - is there any other suggestions to speed this step up?

This is the crusher i have - it just crushes:


Chardonel 23.5 Brix - .85 TA - will be picking this weekend!!!


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## grapeman (Aug 23, 2010)

I wouldn't bother to destem if you don't have a destemmer. The fruit will be ripes, so the stems will impart minimal vegetativeness in the overnight soak in pectic enzyme before pressing. Just crush them, add k-meta to kill wild yeast, add pectic enzyme, let soak 12-24 hours to loosen up and press to get the juice. You don't ferment the grapes like reds, so it isn't a bad problem. Good numbers by the way!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 23, 2010)

grapeman said:


> I wouldn't bother to destem if you don't have a destemmer. The fruit will be ripes, so the stems will impart minimal vegetativeness in the overnight soak in pectic enzyme before pressing. Just crush them, add k-meta to kill wild yeast, add pectic enzyme, let soak 12-24 hours to loosen up and press to get the juice. You don't ferment the grapes like reds, so it isn't a bad problem. Good numbers by the way!



Awesome - that will shave hours off my time!!!

Yeah i was very happy with the numbers.

I am pumped about getting them this weekend!! I have made wine from grapes for a few years - but just table grapes - so i am excited about using wine grapes this year!!


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 30, 2010)

The chardonel is fermenting away and is creating foam on top - when i rack to the carboy - do i leave the foam behind - or take it all?

I know that i will leave the sediment behind - but wasn't sure on the foam.


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## grapeman (Aug 30, 2010)

You don't need to rack the foam over. You probably will want to rack after the foam has died down anyways- around 1.010.


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## Wade E (Aug 30, 2010)

Yep, thyat foam is just an active fermentation and that will subside most likely around 1.030 or there abouts.


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## jet (Aug 30, 2010)

I just started my first batch of from-grapes wine this past weekend with chardonel. I did some checking and it seems that MO wineries typically treat chardonel like chardonnay, with oak (sometimes barrel fermentation) and MLF.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 30, 2010)

jet said:


> I just started my first batch of from-grapes wine this past weekend with chardonel. I did some checking and it seems that MO wineries typically treat chardonel like chardonnay, with oak (sometimes barrel fermentation) and MLF.



Cool - right now it is at 1.072 - so hopefully in a 2-3 more days i will be able to rack.

Yeah i read though with chardonel you don't have to perform the MLF since it is a hybrid of seyval - but i could be wrong.


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## jet (Aug 30, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Cool - right now it is at 1.072 - so hopefully in a 2-3 more days i will be able to rack.
> 
> Yeah i read though with chardonel you don't have to perform the MLF since it is a hybrid of seyval - but i could be wrong.


AFAIK, MLF is always a stylistic decision for whites, but I'm sure someone with more experience can say for certain.


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## grapeman (Aug 31, 2010)

I have never done mlf on the Chardonel so I can't speak how sucessful it would be, but I like it the way it is so haven't wanted to try.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 31, 2010)

grapeman said:


> You don't need to rack the foam over. You probably will want to rack after the foam has died down anyways- around 1.010.



so the SG is at 1.028 right now at this time yesterday it was at 1.072.

the way it is going - it will surpass 1.010 before i can get to rack it tomorrow when i get home.

should i rack it tonight into the carboy?


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## grapeman (Aug 31, 2010)

Let it go until tomorrow it will be fine. If you rack now I will guarantee it will overflow.


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## Wade E (Aug 31, 2010)

Wow, what the heck is the temp there? I know its freaking hot here and hotter tomorrow and even hotter again on Thursday. 93* here today and will be almost 100* by Thursday. That will make a wine ferment faster and I like to cool ferment my whites.


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## jet (Aug 31, 2010)

grapeman said:


> I have never done mlf on the Chardonel so I can't speak how sucessful it would be, but I like it the way it is so haven't wanted to try.


I agree. This is just my first chardonel, but I won't be putting it through MLF. If someone wants it to be chardonnay, or like the typical Missouri chardonel, they'll want to do MLF (as well as oak).


winemaker_3352 said:


> so the SG is at 1.028 right now at this time yesterday it was at 1.072.
> 
> the way it is going - it will surpass 1.010 before i can get to rack it tomorrow when i get home.
> 
> should i rack it tonight into the carboy?


I think the most important thing is to rack before the wine falls still. I just make sure I get it racked before the SG falls below 1.0.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 31, 2010)

jet said:


> I agree. This is just my first chardonel, but I won't be putting it through MLF. If someone wants it to be chardonnay, or like the typical Missouri chardonel, they'll want to do MLF (as well as oak).
> 
> I think the most important thing is to rack before the wine falls still. I just make sure I get it racked before the SG falls below 1.0.



See that i am not sure about - the way it is going - it will be below that - unless it starts to die down.



grapeman said:


> Let it go until tomorrow it will be fine. If you rack now I will guarantee it will overflow.



k - if i wait until tomorrow and the SG falls below 1.000? Will it still be alright?



Wade E said:


> Wow, what the heck is the temp there? I know its freaking hot here and hotter tomorrow and even hotter again on Thursday. 93* here today and will be almost 100* by Thursday. That will make a wine ferment faster and I like to cool ferment my whites.



high 80's to 90 - suppose to get in the 70's for the high over labor day weekend. Fermentation temps of the must have been about 78, 79 degrees.


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## Wade E (Aug 31, 2010)

You should put an airlock on it tonight if getting that low.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 31, 2010)

Wade E said:


> You should put an airlock on it tonight if getting that low.



well - the bucket i have doesn't have an airlock hole for it - it is just a bucket from the bakery.

With that in mind - should i just transfer it to a carboy with an airlock and leave - and just give it room so it doesn't overflow as grapeman indicated?

Actually i just took another SG reading - and i let the hydrometer float in the bucket for a couple of minutes - and the SG was slowly crept up to 1.042 and it stayed there.

so maybe my first reading i took to fast.


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## Wade E (Aug 31, 2010)

Thats more like what I would have expected hence why I asked you what temp it was cause in my opinon it was fermenting to fast. While its fermenting that good its hard to get a accurate reading in there, youll really ned to extract a sample in a thief or test vial.


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## winemaker_3352 (Aug 31, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Thats more like what I would have expected hence why I asked you what temp it was cause in my opinon it was fermenting to fast. While its fermenting that good its hard to get a accurate reading in there, youll really ned to extract a sample in a thief or test vial.



ok - so with the test vial - it came out to 1.030 - and it appears to be slowing down.

so do you think i will be alright to wait until tomorrow to rack it?


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## grapeman (Sep 1, 2010)

As the wine is fermenting actively with plenty of sugar it generates it's own heat and goes faster. As yeast levels drop, it slows down because the heat generated drops. With all the C02 being given off, don't worry about no airlock or even getting low. I would wait the extra day to let it get that bit lower. I don't like seeing my wine end up on the floor. I have fermented below 1.00 plenty of times before transfer and nevre had a problem. Just don't leave it dry in the fermenter for long without the airlock. A day will be fine.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 1, 2010)

So i check it this morning and the SG is at 1.022 - so hopefully i should be good to rack to the carboy tonight..


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 1, 2010)

SG was 1.010 when i got home - right on the money. Racked to carboy to finish fermenting!!!

Seyval is next - picking the grapes on saturday!!


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## Wade E (Sep 1, 2010)

Looks like you are in good shape. Im a little more anal with whote wines then reds as they can oxidize easier.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 1, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Looks like you are in good shape. Im a little more anal with whote wines then reds as they can oxidize easier.



Yeah i know what you men - i could have racked it last night - but i think grapeman was right as far as it overflowing - b/c even now - it is still working pretty good in the carboy.

I also vacuum racked it - so that helps to eliminate O2 exposure - and my sulfite levels are sufficient enough.


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## Wade E (Sep 1, 2010)

Tes, last noght was too early but given your readings all over the place I eered on the safe side.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 1, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Tes, last noght was too early but given your readings all over the place I eered on the safe side.



Yeah - i could see why would  I think i had too much wine before i took my readings


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