# Shattering Carboys?



## wineview (Nov 17, 2021)

I started brewing beer in 1999 using some of my dad's carboys when he used to make wine. They have to be at least 50 years old. I really never gave a thought to the construction of carboys and the possibility of the bottom falling out but I have recently seen some articles and videos about this very topic. The bottom of their carboys simply fall off for no apparent reason. One video I watched was very informative and came to the conclusion that Italian made carboys are the best. Carboys made in Mexico not so good. It has to do with the quality of the glass and the cooling process of the hot glass. Bubbles in the side walls can also be a problem. Over the years I have noticed bubbles on the sides of some of those 50 year old carboys and wondered if they could be a problem. Apparently they could be but like I said I have used them for a very long time. I only have two empty carboys right now and they were both made in Italy. I'll have to inspect the full carboys at my next racking. Was wondering if any of you folks had carboy bottoms fall out or are even aware that this is a problem.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 17, 2021)

I've heard of it, but never experienced it. Some of my carboys are 35 years old, and I've had no problems -- so far.

One issue that has been reported is repeatedly putting carboys on hard surfaces, such as concrete. This supposedly produces micro-fractures over time. I use workout mats on my concrete floor for protection.


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## mikewatkins727 (Nov 18, 2021)

I'm in the same boat as @winemaker81 though I have only one carboy 20+ years old, the rest are 3 gallon and 1 gallon. I use small dollies that fit the carboys to move them around.


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## stickman (Nov 18, 2021)

As far as I know, there is only one country that makes carboys that unexpectedly break, and it's not Mexico or Italy.


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## Rice_Guy (Nov 18, 2021)

Temperature cycling is the major risk. You already mentioned cooling too fast, this also could be non uniform top to bottom heating or cooling for example a fast quench in a canning line can cause the bottom to fracture off. Thin glass is more risky but at twenty or fifty years the weak glass will have busted. Bubbles in a fifty year old would not be a concern for me.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 18, 2021)

I had it happen a few years ago and was very lucky. I had just finished emptying a carboy, was cleaning it and set it down after the final rinse. When I went to lift it to put away the bottom stayed on the dolly.


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## reeflections (Nov 18, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I had it happen a few years ago and was very lucky. I had just finished emptying a carboy, was cleaning it and set it down after the final rinse. When I went to lift it to put away the bottom stayed on the dolly.



Wow! That was lucky.


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## jburtner (Nov 18, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I had it happen a few years ago and was very lucky. I had just finished emptying a carboy, was cleaning it and set it down after the final rinse. When I went to lift it to put away the bottom stayed on the dolly.



Was hot water by any chance involved? I recommend to only use cool room temp water for carboy cleaning. I had one develop a hairline crack that I can only attribute to a hot water clean/rinse.. No injuries but it kept loosing vacuum after racking and I finally came home to a cellar floor of 9 month old Chardonnay which was quite depressing... Whole house smelled good though!


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## mikewatkins727 (Nov 18, 2021)

jburtner said:


> Was hot water by any chance involved? I recommend to only use cool room temp water for carboy cleaning. I had one develop a hairline crack that I can only attribute to a hot water clean/rinse.. No injuries but it kept loosing vacuum after racking and I finally came home to a cellar floor of 9 month old Chardonnay which was quite depressing... Whole house smelled good though!


Sorry for your loss, @jburtner . FWIT, I have 7, 3 gallon carboys that I routinely use and clean with hot tap water (abt 120°F) . They are at least 8 years old. Bought from Labelpeelers and I believe they are Italian made. I've had no problems.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 19, 2021)

jburtner said:


> Was hot water by any chance involved? I recommend to only use cool room temp water for carboy cleaning. I had one develop a hairline crack that I can only attribute to a hot water clean/rinse.. No injuries but it kept loosing vacuum after racking and I finally came home to a cellar floor of 9 month old Chardonnay which was quite depressing... Whole house smelled good though!



Yes I did, I have a hot water only hose next to my sink and know that's potential problem. It's on my winter todo list to tie a cold to it for tempering.


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## JohnT (Nov 19, 2021)

I have had Mexican carboys for over 30 years and have NEVER broke one. I give credit for this track record to the carboy crates that my FIL made. They keep glass off of concrete, keep them from bumping each other, and also allows me to stack them horizontally! 

I was hard pressed to find a pic. this is the best i could find...


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## jburtner (Nov 21, 2021)




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## wineview (Nov 21, 2021)

jburtner said:


>



Yes I saw that video last week. Interesting. I posted this photo on another thread. Here it is again in case you didn’t see it. I build these carriers from scrap wood I have laying around.


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## Raptor99 (Nov 21, 2021)

jburtner said:


>




Great video, thanks for sharing it. I think I will set up a polariscope so that I can check all my carboys. I have a DSLR, so I will order a filter to fit my camera.


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## stickman (Nov 22, 2021)

In 2018 and again in 2020 I mentioned annealing being a potential issue with glass breaking as discussed on this forum. I like the polariscope idea as it really allows you to see the stress in question. The only issue I have with the video is the constant reference to poor carboys from Mexico and no mention of the "other" country. The first carboy he puts in front of the polariscope at 13:18 shows no stress defects and you can clearly see the words "made in Mexico", as well as the circle VR logo indicating the specific manufacturing facility (most likely the Vidriera los Reyes plant). Later at 15:00 a carboy is shown with stress which he says is from Mexico, but there are no bottom punt marks visible confirming the manufacturer, the only marking is "5 gallon" in lower case letters which is unusual. This is just my speculation here, but there is a good chance the questionable carboys are coming from China. 

Nothing new, as usual buyer beware, with significant counterfeit products being sold on open markets, it is best to purchase from reliable suppliers.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 22, 2021)

My old carboys (30-35 years old) are all from Mexico.

I found the video to be a bit amusing, as he said to stop blaming the victim, then proceeded to list all the ways the owner IS potentially responsible for problems.  

While not into China bashing, the number of low quality products coming out of China is disturbing, enough to make me buy elsewhere.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 22, 2021)

I have no idea where mine come from since, except for 4 three gallons ones, they were all bought used. The one that the bottom fell out was a 6 gallon. It was 1 of 2 ribbed ones I have/had and one was from my started equipment from Master Vintners. It's long gone so I have no idea of the markings on the bottom. 

I only have a few left with no wine in them and will try to read the writing on the bottoms.


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## Raptor99 (Nov 22, 2021)

It is likely that there are both good and bad carboys made in different countries. But some countries will have better quality control than others. Buying the cheapest carboy you can find, no matter where it is made, is risky.

I found it helpful to understand why carboys break. Once my polarizing filter arrives, I plan to check my carboys to see what kind of condition they are in. Using this method, it would be possible to check your carboys once/year to see if they are likely to break. That makes sense to me.


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## Steve Wargo (Nov 22, 2021)

jburtner said:


>



Excellent video about glass carboys. Good video production. All of my glass is bought used. Most are the old water dispenser glass carboys. Yep, They are heavy. I also bought a few used Italian-made carboys and an older Mexican vintage CRISA carboy.  I inspect for flaws, chips, cracks before sealing the deal. I think most of the new glass is junk. Maybe not the Italian. IMO


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## Old Corker (Nov 22, 2021)

Raptor99 said:


> It is likely that there are both good and bad carboys made in different countries.


Agree with this. While QC is certainly a consideration, at the end of the day it’s what the buying customer will accept. And by customer I don’t just mean the end user. Whoever is ordering from the factory is setting the expectation when it comes to quality, volume and price. Some of the most technically advanced and highest quality products in the world are made in China. I’m typing this message on one right now.


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## Old Corker (Nov 22, 2021)

Also, I think Shattering Carboys would be a cool band name.


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## wineview (Nov 22, 2021)

Old Corker said:


> Also, I think Shattering Carboys would be a cool band name.


Oh yeah… you should go into marketing.


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## wineview (Nov 23, 2021)

Is there a US manufacturing company?


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## Jan (Nov 23, 2021)

I have one glass 5 gal from Mexico, from around 1960, The three I mostly use are glass, 7 gallons, in Styrofoam containers. They have been in constant use since 1991, They had Hydrochloric, or Sulphuric acid in them.


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## hounddawg (Nov 23, 2021)

wineview said:


> I started brewing beer in 1999 using some of my dad's carboys when he used to make wine. They have to be at least 50 years old. I really never gave a thought to the construction of carboys and the possibility of the bottom falling out but I have recently seen some articles and videos about this very topic. The bottom of their carboys simply fall off for no apparent reason. One video I watched was very informative and came to the conclusion that Italian made carboys are the best. Carboys made in Mexico not so good. It has to do with the quality of the glass and the cooling process of the hot glass. Bubbles in the side walls can also be a problem. Over the years I have noticed bubbles on the sides of some of those 50 year old carboys and wondered if they could be a problem. Apparently they could be but like I said I have used them for a very long time. I only have two empty carboys right now and they were both made in Italy. I'll have to inspect the full carboys at my next racking. Was wondering if any of you folks had carboy bottoms fall out or are even aware that this is a problem.


www.packagingoptionsdirect.com
these are the thickest i have found, i have a few Italian carboys, but these premium Italian carboys , are thicker,
Dawg


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## 4huskrs (Nov 27, 2021)

I just broke a carboy hit the side of the stainless steel sink and it did not hit very hard. Must have been just right spot.
Ron


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## NorCal (Nov 27, 2021)

Confession time. I was transporting 6 full carboys, wrapped in towels in the back seat area of my F-150. Downward sloping sharp turn was enough for two carboys to contact each other and one exploded. Of course it had to be the 6.5 gallon carboy. Opened the front doors and wine poured out. One of the more stupid things I’ve done. I should have strapped all the carboys together. Would have taken two extra minutes.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 28, 2021)

NorCal said:


> Confession time. I was transporting 6 full carboys, wrapped in towels in the back seat area of my F-150. Downward sloping sharp turn was enough for two carboys to contact each other and one exploded. Of course it had to be the 6.5 gallon carboy. Opened the front doors and wine poured out. One of the more stupid things I’ve done. I should have strapped all the carboys together. Would have taken two extra minutes.



Was this your recent move?


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## mainshipfred (Nov 28, 2021)

4huskrs said:


> I just broke a carboy hit the side of the stainless steel sink and it did not hit very hard. Must have been just right spot.
> Ron



My sink is fiberglass and even though I always wanted a SS this was my biggest hang-up. It's not the easiest to keep clean, it just feel a little safer.


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## NorCal (Nov 28, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> Was this your recent move?


Yes. I left a wine trail on the street like one of those painters that has a bucket tip over, that followed me all the way to the point I pulled over.

I pulled everything I could out of the truck and ran some water inside the truck to dilute everything. Left windows open all the time. The one benefit of having 100 degree summers is that it drys your carpet out reasonably fast when you break a carboy in it. Smelled like a winery, then sourdough bread for a while. So stupid and was easily avoidable.


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## dkbecker (Nov 28, 2021)

I always store my carboys in standard milk crates, they work great! Got mine here; MILK CRATES - Plastic Crates For Sale | Buy Direct & SAVE


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## Snafflebit (Nov 28, 2021)

thanks for the milk crate link!


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## hounddawg (Nov 28, 2021)

NorCal said:


> Yes. I left a wine trail on the street like one of those painters that has a bucket tip over, that followed me all the way to the point I pulled over.
> 
> I pulled everything I could out of the truck and ran some water inside the truck to dilute everything. Left windows open all the time. The one benefit of having 100 degree summers is that it drys your carpet out reasonably fast when you break a carboy in it. Smelled like a winery, then sourdough bread for a while. So stupid and was easily avoidable.


man if you lived in Arkansas,, you'd went to jail for a open container.
Dawg


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## BMarNJ (Nov 29, 2021)

After reading all this and not relishing the thought of 5 or 6 gallons of wine on my basement floor, I went out and bought tubtrugs (https://www.amazon.com/TUBTRUGS-Large-Tub-Gallon-Blue) for my filled carboys. 3 gallon ones fit in juice pails I already had. Some of my carboys have no markings on the bottom… I need to contact Gino Pinto to see where they come from.


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## Mario Dinis (Nov 30, 2021)

BMarNJ said:


> After reading all this and not relishing the thought of 5 or 6 gallons of wine on my basement floor, I went out and bought tubtrugs (https://www.amazon.com/TUBTRUGS-Large-Tub-Gallon-Blue) for my filled carboys. 3 gallon ones fit in juice pails I already had. Some of my carboys have no markings on the bottom… I need to contact Gino Pinto to see where they come from.


I also bought two 6 gallon carboys at Gino Pinto. Have a 3 gallon one from Mexico. My other five 6 gallons are italian made. So far no problems.


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## wineview (Nov 30, 2021)

NorCal said:


> Confession time. I was transporting 6 full carboys, wrapped in towels in the back seat area of my F-150. Downward sloping sharp turn was enough for two carboys to contact each other and one exploded. Of course it had to be the 6.5 gallon carboy. Opened the front doors and wine poured out. One of the more stupid things I’ve done. I should have strapped all the carboys together. Would have taken two extra minutes.


Very sticky seats I’m sure. But a nice aroma. Just don’t get stopped by the cops.


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## stickman (Nov 30, 2021)

Here's a listing from Alibaba that is a little concerning. As you scroll down there are photos showing the smooth bottom without manufacturing marks, then continue down to the detail drawing (shown below) that shows the typical embossed bottom with Made Italy. Really? So where is it made? In the center of the bottom is a reserved spot for the manufacturing site punt mark, in this case it is left empty, or possibly you could specify whatever mark you want. A bit further down the page are reviews from Amazon commenting that Italian made carboys are very good quality. Are they implying that these are the carboys people are buying on Amazon?






Linlang Shanghai High Quality Soda-lime Glass Carboy Carrier Glass Gallon Bottle - Buy Glass Carboy,10 Gallon Glass Carboy,5 Gallon Glass Carboy Product on Alibaba.com


Linlang Shanghai High Quality Soda-lime Glass Carboy Carrier Glass Gallon Bottle - Buy Glass Carboy,10 Gallon Glass Carboy,5 Gallon Glass Carboy Product on Alibaba.com



www.alibaba.com













The drawing below from The Cary Company shows the bottom of the Italian carboy with the "circle V" punt mark in the middle, which indicates the manufacturing site Vetri Speciali Italy Ormelle. I don't think there is any guarantee if purchasing a carboy from this supplier that it would be made at this particular site, but it illustrates how reputable manufacturers typically include punt marks for traceability. Even though a punt mark in the middle could be fake, I would certainly question anything without a mark.


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## franc1969 (Nov 30, 2021)

I would not trust a thing from Alibaba that you actually need to have, and have correct and accurate. Did you notice that the tech drawing was stolen from somewhere that speaks/writes in Italian? Most illustrations are stolen or reused, and almost every item I've looked at was offered in small to medium quantities from various sellers. When those are gone, the account is gone or used for something completely unrelated.
I have used the site to buy cheap inconsequential items, and did fine. Air filters, wine stoppers, coffee stuff, weird craft items, drill water pumps, etc. Nothing that would kill me if wrong, would shatter, or pose a problem if not received. I certainly would never order anything glass- new carboys should be purchased from a reputable company in the same country you are in. Then there is a recourse.



stickman said:


> Here's a listing from Alibaba that is a little concerning. As you scroll down there are photos showing the smooth bottom without manufacturing marks, then continue down to the detail drawing (shown below) that shows the typical embossed bottom with Made Italy. Really? So where is it made? In the center of the bottom is a reserved spot for the manufacturing site punt mark, in this case it is left empty, or possibly you could specify whatever mark you want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## stickman (Nov 30, 2021)

@franc1969 Hopefully you didn't think that I was suggesting or considering purchasing anything from Alibaba, rather, I was pointing out how corrupt the market is, and how easy it is for a reseller to purchase these products that are questionable, then sell them here to unsuspecting people. I imagine a container load of defective stressed carboys was shipped here from China (not Mexico) several years ago, and the home-brew community has been working off the inventory and paying the price with shattering carboys ever since.


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## hounddawg (Dec 1, 2021)

i never knew Italian carboys came in two grades, the standard grade is better then all others except for the premium Italian grade, a third of my carboys are Italian carboys, and good lord willing never a problem, i ran across the premium Italian carboys i got by accident, instantly you notice that they are much heaver , so 2/3's are premium for a total of 37 to 38, i forget,,, as far as i know any Mexico or American carboys are very old, and as glass gets older it get fatigued by years of movement, bumping, and setting down just a little hard, i lay a double layer of cardboard under all my carboys, my prep table is 8 foot long by 32 inch deep stainless steel, my 3 basin sink is 8 foot and stainless steel, my racking canes are 3/8 stainless, all chairs are wood, my vacuum-pump i have put 20 foot silicone hoses on, so the only time I move A carboy is to wash a empty, if you order in groups of 5 it is cheaper just under $35 a carboy and free shipping if i remember correctly.
Dawg 

www.packagingoptionsdirect.com


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## AbruzziRed (Dec 8, 2021)

So I have been following this and watched the video. I have this Mexican carboy that has to be at least 20-30 years old (judging by the label condition) with defects in the glass. No issues, knock on wood.
If I didn’t read this post or the recent ones on Facebook I would not be worried about my carboys…. But after reading.. well I am debating if I keep using this one. 
who knows, I could go years with no issue…


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## stickman (Dec 8, 2021)

Many older carboys and demijohns will have some visible defects like what you have shown, bubbles, bits of sand, thickness variation etc., but the fact that they are old means they have stood the test of time. Carboys that have stress from not being properly annealed is a different issue and of greater concern in my opinion.


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## hounddawg (Dec 8, 2021)

AbruzziRed said:


> So I have been following this and watched the video. I have this Mexican carboy that has to be at least 20-30 years old (judging by the label condition) with defects in the glass. No issues, knock on wood.
> If I didn’t read this post or the recent ones on Facebook I would not be worried about my carboys…. But after reading.. well I am debating if I keep using this one.
> who knows, I could go years with no issue…


the newer Italian, clam that using the latest technologize. gives a much more constant thickness over even the Italian carboys. all of my 28 or so carboy are Italian, but the premium. are much better in weight, , the 6 gall are $34.49 each. i went to checkout several times to figure how many would become the cheapest, first order was was in 4's ,, i ended up way over crowded ,so i bought 11 premiums in different orders, one shipment came with 3 broke which UPS signed for the damage, not a word said, they sent more, 1 broken, and again i got another . right as rain, i even talked to them on the phone. i explained how, the other place used Styrofoam foam on all 4 corners, where i live arboys cost way more then new, where i live i half to order everything
Dawg,


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## wineview (Dec 9, 2021)

AbruzziRed said:


> So I have been following this and watched the video. I have this Mexican carboy that has to be at least 20-30 years old (judging by the label condition) with defects in the glass. No issues, knock on wood.
> If I didn’t read this post or the recent ones on Facebook I would not be worried about my carboys…. But after reading.. well I am debating if I keep using this one.
> who knows, I could go years with no issue…


I have at least a few with similar bubbles and feel as you do. Prior to this thread I never really thought about them being defective. After all they may be 50 plus years old.


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## BMarNJ (Dec 9, 2021)

Gino Pinto got back to me and said that for the last 2 years their carboys have come from Italy… but I am still concerned that the ones I bought in the last 2 years may have been older stock. I haven’t looked at all of them, but the ones I did look at had no markings. The italian ones I have are all marked Italy on the bottom.


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## hounddawg (Dec 10, 2021)

*these ole boys with tons of grey matter can tell you much more, but if on a slab floor or bare plywood, neither is good, the cement slab.
has no give, and even a slight bump can do damage, plywood, holding a framing square by the big end with the short end laying on the floor run it over ever inch of the floor, listening for slight tings of a nail head, or a small piece of gravel. i keep cardboard an set it on the floor where i put my carboys as well as a commercial aluminum baking sheet ,will hold 2 carboys, the baking sheets are for minor spills or spilt chemicals ,, and if i have to fight ants i put domesticated earth food grade in the baking sheets, *


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## wineview (Dec 12, 2021)

Now that I have started to rack off some carboys, I was curious to see what I had. The first photo is Mexican made which surprised me. Whenever I would see the lined thick glass, I assumed it was Italian. The second pic show the manufacture. I think it says Crisa. And the last two photos is a carboy that my dad used in 1960 and I continue to use. No manufacturer on the bottom. There is a bubble in the glass and a seam runs up and down on both sides.


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## edsey (Dec 12, 2021)

stickman said:


> Many older carboys and demijohns will have some visible defects like what you have shown, bubbles, bits of sand, thickness variation etc., but the fact that they are old means they have stood the test of time. Carboys that have stress from not being properly annealed is a different issue and of greater concern in my opinion.





hounddawg said:


> *these ole boys with tons of grey matter can tell you much more, but if on a slab floor or bare plywood, neither is good, the cement slab.
> has no give, and even a slight bump can do damage, plywood, holding a framing square by the big end with the short end laying on the floor run it over ever inch of the floor, listening for slight tings of a nail head, or a small piece of gravel. i keep cardboard an set it on the floor where i put my carboys as well as a commercial aluminum baking sheet ,will hold 2 carboys, the baking sheets are for minor spills or spilt chemicals ,, and if i have to fight ants i put domesticated earth food grade in the baking sheets, *


A while back I posted a picture of the dirt bike jack that I purchased at Princess Auto. When using this, the carbouys never get bumped they simply slide on and off at counter height. When siphoning the jack is at the floor level and then raised to counter height. Sure save on the back and maybe saves a few carbouys from breaking due to bumping around.


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## stickman (Dec 12, 2021)

@wineview the circle "I" punt mark is from a US company, Owens Illinois North America, that carboy is from one of the many US facilities. Both the Owens Illinois and the Crisa Mexico are reliable carboys.


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## wineview (Dec 13, 2021)

stickman said:


> @wineview the circle "I" punt mark is from a US company, Owens Illinois North America, that carboy is from one of the many US facilities. Both the Owens Illinois and the Crisa Mexico are reliable carboys.


I just noticed the “I” in the photo. That’s the 1960 carboy with the bubble and seam.


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