# Fining agent for coffee wine?



## BigDaveK (Apr 3, 2022)

My coffee wine was racked for the first time 2 weeks ago. Getting an accumulation of fine lees. Usually I don't care about fining agents - especially now that I have skeeter pee and 2 dragon blood available.  Usually I'll see my wines noticeably clearer in 2 or 3 days on their own. Not the coffee wine. Still looks dark dark brown. In fact, with a flashlight it almost looks grainy!

So I'm beginning to think about a fining agent. I know they have different charges and some work better than others depending on the wine. I'm leaning toward a negatively charged fining agent like bentonite or kieselsol. All I have right now is sparkalloid...well, and egg whites.

I know 2 weeks isn't a long time but I think I should have seen _something_ by now. I'm planning ahead. Any thoughts, please?


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 3, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> My coffee wine was racked for the first time 2 weeks ago. Getting an accumulation of fine lees. Usually I don't care about fining agents - especially now that I have skeeter pee and 2 dragon blood available.  Usually I'll see my wines noticeably clearer in 2 or 3 days on their own. Not the coffee wine. Still looks dark dark brown. In fact, with a flashlight it almost looks grainy!
> 
> So I'm beginning to think about a fining agent. I know they have different charges and some work better than others depending on the wine. I'm leaning toward a negatively charged fining agent like bentonite or kieselsol. All I have right now is sparkalloid...well, and egg whites.
> 
> I know 2 weeks isn't a long time but I think I should have seen _something_ by now. I'm planning ahead. Any thoughts, please?


Isn’t it still a little early on with the coffee wine ? did you move to secondary 2 weeks ago ? Or have you already racked once from secondary.. if you still have lots of fine lees maybe rack off one more time. 

I’m going to have to consider doing something myself with the loquat wine, so I’ll bookmark this one, or just watch it or what ever else you do.


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## David Violante (Apr 4, 2022)

Put a blanket over it so you don’t see it. If you’ve racked it once off the gross lees, just give it some time. It has only been two weeks. If you *need* it to clear faster you could add chitosan/kieselsol. I would just wait.


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## BigDaveK (Apr 4, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> Isn’t it still a little early on with the coffee wine ? did you move to secondary 2 weeks ago ? Or have you already racked once from secondary.. if you still have lots of fine lees maybe rack off one more time.
> 
> I’m going to have to consider doing something myself with the loquat wine, so I’ll bookmark this one, or just watch it or what ever else you do.


Yes, it's only been in secondary 2 weeks. Like I mentioned, everything - even the tomato "soup" - was visibly clearer in 2-3 days. Maybe it's "normal" for this kind of wine. Maybe not. Either way it's definitely part of my wine making education.


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## TurkeyHollow (Apr 4, 2022)

How about.... a coffee filter??? Only half kidding. I know there are many reasons NOT to filter a wine but this may be a good candidate for filtering.


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## BigDaveK (Apr 4, 2022)

TurkeyHollow said:


> How about.... a coffee filter??? Only half kidding. I know there are many reasons NOT to filter a wine but this may be a good candidate for filtering.


Possibly.
I guess I'm trying to plan ahead just in case. I'll rack in a couple weeks and see how things are going.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 4, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I know 2 weeks isn't a long time but I think I should have seen _something_ by now. I'm planning ahead. Any thoughts, please?


Pour a glass of wine and consider David's advice:



David Violante said:


> *Put a blanket over it so you don’t see it.* If you’ve racked it once off the gross lees, just give it some time. It has only been two weeks. If you *need* it to clear faster you could add chitosan/kieselsol. I would just wait.


Seriously, cover the container and ignore it for at least 2 weeks. My guess is fine coffee grounds are in suspension, and they will settle out. Patience, Grasshopper!

Unless you are ramping up to bottle the wine, do not worry about it. If it's not mostly clear in a month, then consider a fining agent.

I admit part of my advice is learning how coffee wine acts. This is a good leaning experience.

My FWK are due this week, and I intend to start a gallon of coffee mead at the same time (Mrs WM81 hates the smell of fermentation, so I group things to limit the time). I'll document this with yet another "In Detail" blog.


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## BigDaveK (Apr 4, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Pour a glass of wine and consider David's advice:
> 
> Seriously, cover the container and ignore it for at least 2 weeks. My guess is fine coffee grounds are in suspension, and they will settle out. Patience, Grasshopper!
> 
> ...


Fortunately my novice wine maker lack of patience has been greatly tempered with the quick wines. No more stress. I'm also slowly getting rid of my commercial stock - to make room.   

And "Pour a glass of wine" seems to be an excellent course of action for MANY life situations.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 4, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> (Mrs WM81 hates the smell of fermentation, so I group things to limit the time).



time for the $30,000 home air filtration system


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## winemaker81 (Apr 4, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> time for the $30,000 home air filtration system


Instead I'd LOVE to build an external fermentation building. Start with this:



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Heartland-Common-12-ft-x-24-ft-Interior-Dimensions-11-42-ft-x-23-42-ft-Estate-Gambrel-Engineered-Storage-Shed-Installation-Not-Included/3602264



Insulate the heck out of it, add a small heat pump, and electrical connections. Water is the only issue -- I can run a hose into the building, but no hot water ....


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 4, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Instead I'd LOVE to build an external fermentation building. Start with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey that’s actually not bad. Decent price.
i stick built one up north -not a fermentation shed but a tool shed.
all the comforts of home. Windows electric lights etc.

winter can get a little nippy up there. garden hose lasts a long time under the ground but 3/4 inch plastic pipe goes together easy and lasts longer.
240 electric service tankless water heater. and a small electric baseboard heater. Check into spray foam. Mice won’t build as many nests.

i keep looking at shows where people use solar panels to build a system that runs a lot of things like lights and even water heaters.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 4, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Water is the only issue -- I can run a hose into the building, but no hot water ....





FlamingoEmporium said:


> 240 electric service tankless water heater. and a small electric baseboard heater. Check into spray foam. Mice won’t build as many nests.



Or even easier, you can get a tankless water heater that runs off of a propane tank with no electrical connection: https://www.amazon.com/GA5PORT-Portable-Propane-Tankless-Heater/dp/B005DROEZC


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## BigDaveK (Apr 4, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Instead I'd LOVE to build an external fermentation building. Start with this:
> 
> 
> Insulate the heck out of it, add a small heat pump, and electrical connections. Water is the only issue -- I can run a hose into the building, but no hot water ....


Very nice! Maybe some not-so-subtle hints to Mrs WM81 as an xmas or birthday present would work.

I've entertained the idea of buying a used shipping container and burying it. Could still use the surface real estate for other things.


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## FlamingoEmporium (Apr 4, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I've entertained the idea of buying a used shipping container and burying it. Could still use the surface real estate for other things.


Weld two side by side. More room for bottle storage 
Water table too high here to entertain anything like that. Especially in the summer. My house is 14 ft above sea level. I dig up seashells when I garden. (Seriously)


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## BigDaveK (Apr 4, 2022)

FlamingoEmporium said:


> Weld two side by side. More room for bottle storage
> Water table too high here to entertain anything like that. Especially in the summer. My house is 14 ft above sea level. I dig up seashells when I garden. (Seriously)


My initial idea was to have a quick and easy root cellar. Part of my property is sloped so burying would be child's play. But now - a brew room AND bottle storage sounds fantastic! I realized just this past weekend that I'll have to address the bottle storage issue this year.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 4, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> Very nice! Maybe some not-so-subtle hints to Mrs WM81 as an xmas or birthday present would work.
> 
> I've entertained the idea of buying a used shipping container and burying it. Could still use the surface real estate for other things.



Here is a couple of threads to get you started:
Underground versus shed

Shipping Container Cellar


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## Steve Wargo (Apr 4, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> My coffee wine was racked for the first time 2 weeks ago. Getting an accumulation of fine lees. Usually I don't care about fining agents - especially now that I have skeeter pee and 2 dragon blood available.  Usually I'll see my wines noticeably clearer in 2 or 3 days on their own. Not the coffee wine. Still looks dark dark brown. In fact, with a flashlight it almost looks grainy!
> 
> So I'm beginning to think about a fining agent. I know they have different charges and some work better than others depending on the wine. I'm leaning toward a negatively charged fining agent like bentonite or kieselsol. All I have right now is sparkalloid...well, and egg whites.
> 
> I know 2 weeks isn't a long time but I think I should have seen _something_ by now. I'm planning ahead. Any thoughts, please?


Maybe adding milk will help.

Casein50 - 250 mg/L of potassium caseinate or 1 - 10 ml/L of low fat milk* Bitterness, browning and pinking reduction in white wine * Over-oakiness reduction in white wine
Here is the webpage that contains various finning techniques








Summary of Fining Agent Use







www.winebusiness.com


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## BigDaveK (Apr 19, 2022)

Racked the coffee wine today at about the 1 month mark and it seems, yes, Father Time will eventually clear it. Looks like black coffee but no longer grainy. GREAT coffee flavor. To be honest, though, a VERY dry coffee wine is Phase 1. In other words, I wouldn't drink a glass at this point. Back sweetening and vanilla will make all the difference. Back on the shelf for 3 months and another taste.

The great thing about coffee wine is that you top up the carboy with more coffee.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 19, 2022)

You will want to go light on the vanilla, it can quickly overpower all other flavors.


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## BigDaveK (Apr 20, 2022)

cmason1957 said:


> You will want to go light on the vanilla, it can quickly overpower all other flavors.


Thanks, I thought that was a possibility. If I wanted some kind of vanilla wine that's where I would have started - and a vanilla wine doesn't really appeal to me. At least not right now.

I have a 1 gallon and a 1/2 gallon batch to play with. I'm thinking possibly a tsp per gallon but adding it in increments. We'll see, that's months away.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 20, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I have a 1 gallon and a 1/2 gallon batch to play with. I'm thinking possibly a tsp per gallon but adding it in increments. We'll see, that's months away.


Are you waiting until you backsweeten before adding vanilla extract? I expect the sugar will alter the taste perception, so waiting until then is probably a good idea.

Are you using commercial vanilla extract or home made? Using the stuff I make, I'd add 1/2 tsp to the batch, give it a week to integrate, then taste test. [My current batch steeped for 4.5 years -- I didn't need it and forgot about it under the sink.]


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## BigDaveK (Apr 20, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Are you waiting until you backsweeten before adding vanilla extract? I expect the sugar will alter the taste perception, so waiting until then is probably a good idea.
> 
> Are you using commercial vanilla extract or home made? Using the stuff I make, I'd add 1/2 tsp to the batch, give it a week to integrate, then taste test. [My current batch steeped for 4.5 years -- I didn't need it and forgot about it under the sink.]


This wine is BEGGING and SCREAMING to be back sweetened and I'll do that first. I'll start with the 1/2 gallon and probably use a dark brown sugar syrup and see what that gets me.

Definitely home made extract! I don't know why people still buy commercial? My current batch is only 9 months old. I used 100 proof vodka and have been meaning to start another with Everclear.

Using a small amount, taste, wait, taste again is a good idea. I hadn't thought about the wait and taste again part.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 20, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I used 100 proof vodka and have been meaning to start another with Everclear.


I joined a group on Facebook that makes bulk purchases of vanilla beans, and posts recipes. IIRC, they recommend 80 proof vodka or bourbon, but not stronger. I can't recall why and need to look it up.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 20, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> Thanks, I thought that was a possibility. If I wanted some kind of vanilla wine that's where I would have started - and a vanilla wine doesn't really appeal to me. At least not right now.
> 
> I have a 1 gallon and a 1/2 gallon batch to play with. I'm thinking possibly a tsp per gallon but adding it in increments. We'll see, that's months away.



Wanna taste something that went overboard (at least in my wife and my opinion) with the vanilla taste. Apothic Merlot, being that it had the Apothic name, I expected at least a hint of vanilla, but this went way overboard with it. Tasted like they added extract as well. You might want to think about adding one vanilla bean while your wine ages, instead of the extract.


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## BigDaveK (Apr 20, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> I joined a group on Facebook that makes bulk purchases of vanilla beans, and posts recipes. IIRC, they recommend 80 proof vodka or bourbon, but not stronger. I can't recall why and need to look it up.


I read in multiple places that a higher proof alcohol will pull out more flavor in the infusions. I used 80 proof for years then went to 100. I tested side by side and the higher proof definitely smells and tastes better. Funny...you read they recommend 80 proof, I've read never go below 100. Either way, home made infusions are the way to go.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 21, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I read in multiple places that a higher proof alcohol will pull out more flavor in the infusions.


My memory was a big fuzzy. The following is from the group's FAQ:

As a group we recommend 80-100 proof alcohol, which is the same as 40%-50% alcohol by volume. You should never use less than 70 proof (or 35% alcohol by volume), and it is not recommended to use higher than 100-120 proof. If you choose to use high-proof Everclear, you will need to dilute it with distilled water or you may end up with crunchy dried out beans. For a non-alcoholic extract, you can use food-grade glycerin. There are recipes in the files section on Indri's Vanilla Bean Group Facebook page.


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## BigDaveK (Apr 21, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> My memory was a big fuzzy. The following is from the group's FAQ:
> 
> As a group we recommend 80-100 proof alcohol, which is the same as 40%-50% alcohol by volume. You should never use less than 70 proof (or 35% alcohol by volume), and it is not recommended to use higher than 100-120 proof. If you choose to use high-proof Everclear, you will need to dilute it with distilled water or you may end up with crunchy dried out beans. For a non-alcoholic extract, you can use food-grade glycerin. There are recipes in the files section on Indri's Vanilla Bean Group Facebook page.


Ah, maybe _my_ memory was fuzzy too. I may have read about using Everclear and then just assuming it could be used for all extracts. Personally I'm happy using 100 proof and will never go back to 80.

One of my favorites from last year was a cherry extract. Tastes really good. When it's done you can eat the cherries. In fact they're called "Boozy Cherries".


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## winemaker81 (Apr 21, 2022)

BigDaveK said:


> I may have read about using Everclear and then just assuming it could be used for all extracts.


It's used for limoncello and provides superior extraction. I assumed it worked for vanilla as well.


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