# thinking about planting grapes where to start?



## wfournier (Aug 12, 2016)

I have been thinking about planting some grapes on some land I have access to (my father's place, I have some fruit trees and bees that I keep there). I am looking at where to start with this to determine if this is a practical (well maybe not practical lol) thing to do. My goal at this point is only to grow our own personal use and at this point I have never made wine but am working my way through _Vines to Wines_.

The space I would like to use (available space inside an electric fence) is about 24X60 and located in the pioneer valley of western Massachusetts. The soil is well drained to very well drained (about 10-12 in of top soil with a coarse sandy mix underneath. The water table is fairly high, when digging post holes at the lower end of the field we hit water at about 30 inches. The area I'm planning on using would be a little higher so I'm guessing water is about 4-6' underground. I am planning on getting a soil test and I am looking for a little input on how to go about that. The extension site suggests getting a number of samples from the site and mixing them (sounds pretty standard) and I guess my question comes from reading various suggestions from information I have found (get three tests from 12" 24" and 36") etc. Is this necessary? If I need to I can do that but I'd rather not if I don't need to.

Finally I am looking for a little guidance on row spacing and selecting grape varieties. Given the small space I was considering something like a 6X6 spacing configuration as it would allow for four rows and more vines per row but I know this is closer then most people seem to do and I have some concern as most of the vines that will do well around here are more vigorous and it seems that could be problematic with that sort of spacing. In terms of yield I would like to end up with at least enough for 5g of two or three grape varieties.

Any input is appreciated, I have been reading a lot of what I can find on here as well as the _Vines to Wines_ book as well as a few other things I find online and finding a clear path forward has been difficult.


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## Johny99 (Aug 12, 2016)

Go for it! The world needs more crazies. Soil test is an net resting question. Would you look for land elsewhere ir your dad's wasn't ideal? Do you want to spend a lot of time and $ amending it? In the end, for me, I decided it wasn't worth the work. What I have I gave. I chose to let the vines tell me if it is ok. Just my approach, but I'm big on not getting data one is not willing to act on. If other crops will grow, so will grapes. 

Grapes do not like wet feet, as I'm guessing you know. So avoid standing water areas, even winter. 

Do you have a slope? If so pay attention to wine to vines discussion of cold pockets. It is very true. As for spacing, that is a huge topic. My toes are at 7 ft because my tractor is 5 ft wide. I spaced my vines ~ 5 ft apart because the local commercial folks I respect do. I'm experimenting with closer. There is nothing sacred here, just what works for you.

Before you leap, see if you can talk with any local growers/wineries. They can help with what works well right around you. I found by being willing to help out in vineyards I learned a ton!

Go for it and enjoy


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## salcoco (Aug 13, 2016)

the best suggestion was made above , visit local vineyards and see what they are growing for grapes and what would they do different if they started over.


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## wfournier (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks, I did happen to connect with a local vineyard this morning at a farmers market which sounds like a good lead.


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## agaric1 (Aug 14, 2016)

I really enjoy my grapes but I usually jokingly tell people not to do it. Just be sure you start the process right (unlike me) so things go smoother.


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## wfournier (Oct 9, 2016)

So I've done a lot of research and visited a lot of vineyards since I started this thread. The plan as of now is four rows 96' long each with two varieties (6-8 each depending on vigor). As of now I am planning on the following varietals:

Cayuga
Vignoles
Aromella
Vidal Blanc
La Crescent
Marquette
Corot Noir
Verona

A couple questions, Double A recommends MWC/VSP for Cayuga and Vignoles so I'm planning on that but wanted to check if there were any other thoughts on training systems for these varietals. I'm planning on TWC for everything else, any concerns there? 

Next, all of these with the exception of Marquette are not sensitive to sulfur (based on Double A) with Marquette having a slight sensitivity. Being new to this what does that mean in practical terms? No sulfur nearby? Try to avoid the Marquette vines or does slight mean don't really worry about it?

Finally another variety we have considered is NY81 but I have not been able to find a whole lot of feedback on it. Does anyone here have any experience and impressions they would like to share?


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## Stressbaby (Oct 9, 2016)

I'm starting out like you are, a little bigger setup, 7 rows, each 144'.

I've also visited local vineyards and FWIW, here in Missouri, Vignoles is kind of a PITA. I'm told EVERYTHING likes Vignoles - fungus, raccoons, birds. One fellow here has 10 acres of vines with 4 in Vignoles, and this year he told me he lost 30% of the crop to birds despite propane cannons, etc. He grows his Vignoles on a high cordon single curtain system. Again, FWIW, I'll be growing Vidal Blanc and Norton on the same.


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## CTDrew (Oct 9, 2016)

I have Cayuga Aromella, Marquette, Frontenac, Frontenac Blanc, and Gruner Veltliner here in Enfield likely just a bit south of you. Aromella is new to my vineyard so no review. The other hybrids are all good performers. The Gruner requires extra care but I enjoy it even though it doesn't always ripen! Be careful if you are on the deep floodplain soils along the river. Grapes hate wet feet. Also you will get extreme vigor on the deep soil where it doesn't flood, so keep this in mind if you are in that area.


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## salcoco (Oct 10, 2016)

sensitivity to sulfur refers to herbicide sprays that may contain sulfur can cause damage.
I commend your ambition but I would reconsider the quantity of varietals that you have. at best 12-15 lbs a plant can be harvested in a good year. best is 8-10lbs. with 8 plants you do not have a sufficient amount for 5 gallons nominally 12lbs of grape a gallon is required.
I would suggest increasing your quantity per varietal and maybe reducing the amount of varietals to four. once you have a couple years under your belt then increase to other varieties.


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## MisterEd (Oct 10, 2016)

Stressbaby said:


> I've also visited local vineyards and FWIW, here in Missouri, Vignoles is kind of a PITA. I'm told EVERYTHING likes Vignoles - fungus, raccoons, birds. One fellow here has 10 acres of vines with 4 in Vignoles, and this year he told me he lost 30% of the crop to birds despite propane cannons, etc.



I concur, vignoles are very much a PITA to grow here in north Arkansas. High humidity and tight clusters = bunch rot. I am swapping out the vignoles for the looser clustered vidal.


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## wfournier (Oct 11, 2016)

CTDrew said:


> I have Cayuga Aromella, Marquette, Frontenac, Frontenac Blanc, and Gruner Veltliner here in Enfield likely just a bit south of you. Aromella is new to my vineyard so no review. The other hybrids are all good performers. The Gruner requires extra care but I enjoy it even though it doesn't always ripen! Be careful if you are on the deep floodplain soils along the river. Grapes hate wet feet. Also you will get extreme vigor on the deep soil where it doesn't flood, so keep this in mind if you are in that area.



Thanks, you are a bit south of me about 25 miles but that's pretty close. How does the Gruner handle the winter compared to say Riesling? The local Umass Exension Farm has some Riesling that seems to do ok (not great but it's surviving). We are a ways from the river but there is a higher water table in the area. Based on my exploration I think it is deep enough to not cause issues, the soil is sandy and relatively poor so I don't think vigor will be an issue.



salcoco said:


> sensitivity to sulfur refers to herbicide sprays that may contain sulfur can cause damage.
> I commend your ambition but I would reconsider the quantity of varietals that you have. at best 12-15 lbs a plant can be harvested in a good year. best is 8-10lbs. with 8 plants you do not have a sufficient amount for 5 gallons nominally 12lbs of grape a gallon is required.
> I would suggest increasing your quantity per varietal and maybe reducing the amount of varietals to four. once you have a couple years under your belt then increase to other varieties.



The local Umass farm I have been getting grapes from has been about 15-25lbs per vine. I don't think their management is ideal (they only have so much time) and these are well established vines. I have heard of similar yields (and more) mainly from grapeman who has documented this pretty well. Are these numbers an outlier? What would be a realistic expectation? 8-10lbs per vine seems low to me but maybe my expectations are unrealistic. The number of varietals we are looking at is something I have debated, at one point I had planned on 16 which was just crazy.



MisterEd said:


> I concur, vignoles are very much a PITA to grow here in north Arkansas. High humidity and tight clusters = bunch rot. I am swapping out the vignoles for the looser clustered vidal.



Vignoles is one my wife wants, I'm a little on the fence with it, I'll see if I convince here to do something else but you know how that goes....


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## salcoco (Oct 11, 2016)

some plant will yield the higher level of pounds but the plant is under stress when it does so. quality grapes are at the lower level. I would suggest further research in literature in growing wine grapes. check with winemakermagazine.com. they have a whole section on grape growing


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## CTDrew (Oct 11, 2016)

wfournier said:


> Thanks, you are a bit south of me about 25 miles but that's pretty close. How does the Gruner handle the winter compared to say Riesling? The local Umass Exension Farm has some Riesling that seems to do ok (not great but it's surviving). We are a ways from the river but there is a higher water table in the area. Based on my exploration I think it is deep enough to not cause issues, the soil is sandy and relatively poor so I don't think vigor will be an issue.
> 
> Gruner performs comparably to Riesling for winter hardiness, it just takes more days to ripen it. I have a friend growing some Riesling just up the road from me and he gets a little die off here and there in the colder winters just as I do on the Gruner. I had the first scattered frost last night, so I think my season is longer in the fall than yours. On a side note, I grow some daylillies that I sell to landscapers up in Hadley on part of a field I own along the river so I have seen the vigor the river valley loam holds and some of that land floods over in the spring, which is what I was cautioning you on. I've been to most of the vineyards in your area and the soil is thinner and more sandy than the feet of topsoil we have right down by the river. A little test you can do is dig a perk hole in the ground with a post hole digger and see how long a bucket of water takes to drain out just to be certain. Also go the web soil survey : http://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/App/WebSoilSurvey.aspx. Put in your address and check the soil map. You can pick up a lot of useful info from that service.


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## grapeman (Oct 11, 2016)

A proper yield can be argued over and over again. I really believe the proper yield you work towards depends on many factors such as variety, is it a vinifera or a hybrid, spacing, soil type, water availability, disease control (or lack thereof), canopy management, training system implemented and many, many others. Let's face it 600 vines per acre yielding 4 tons per acre has a greater per vine yield (13.33 pounds per vine) than 1200 vines at the same 4 tons per acre ( 6.66 pounds per vine). I wouldn't try to overshoot estimates at this point. You have a lot of learning to do. Start with say 10 to 12 pounds per vine and if that works well you might be able to increase it a bit.


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