# Black Currant Con. Sorbate Question



## jimmyjames23 (Feb 26, 2013)

I have 1L black currant concentrate that I usually use in my wines. I've been using it for a while now and it imparts a hint of black currant when 250ml is added to 27L juice. 
I would like to make black current elderberry wine. The problem is (as you can see from the picture) it contains k-meta and Sorbate. I've never had a problem using it as an additive but I'm not sure how the sorbate will react with my Montrachet when I'm using the black currant concentrate only. I was thinking of adding water until it reaches 1.080 and then let it sit a few days to dissipate the sorbate. 
Recommendations?


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 26, 2013)

I think I'm going to boil 1 L of water, add 1 L of blackcurrant concentrate together in a bucket and hopefully cook off the sorbate.


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## cpfan (Feb 26, 2013)

Although K-meta will dissipate, I don't believe that sorbate will. Boiling I don't know about, but don't recall it ever being mentioned.

Good luck, Steve


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm gonna keep keeping it yeast until all the sorbate is absorbed into the yeast as per Jack Kellers instructions.


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 27, 2013)

Feeding* not keeping


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## Arne (Feb 27, 2013)

Thanks for changing that. I was kinda going huh?? Keep us informed how this works out for you. Arne.


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 27, 2013)

Well I just activated the yeast 4 hours ago and pitched it a few minutes ago along with nutrient. 
Yesterday I made the mix at 1.080 and added 8 L concord. I added pectic enzyme and let it sit for 14 hrs before pitching. 
2 1/2L water to every 1L of "Ribena Black Currant Concentrate" yields a SG of 1.080. 
Gonna wait till the yeast starts (if?) before I add the elderberries. 
Fingers crossed.


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## cpfan (Feb 27, 2013)

jimmyjames23 said:


> Well I just activated the yeast 4 hours ago and pitched it a few minutes ago along with nutrient.
> Yesterday I made the mix at 1.080 and added 8 L concord. I added pectic enzyme and let it sit for 14 hrs before pitching.
> 2 1/2L water to every 1L of "Ribena Black Currant Concentrate" yields a SG of 1.080.
> Gonna wait till the yeast starts (if?) before I add the elderberries.
> Fingers crossed.


Hopefully that dilutes the sorbate concentration enough to get the yeast going. 

Steve


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 27, 2013)

Ill give the Montrachet 24 hrs to get going. If nothing happens I may pitch a more fruit robust yeast. 
Yeast recommendations?


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## WVMountaineerJack (Feb 27, 2013)

The British first boil the Ribena before trying to ferment it to deactivate the sorbate. Looza sells a good black currant juice without sorbate that makes a good wine. I like the Ribena in ports as a topper on the last racking to backsweeten and add some cassis flavor. Good luck, fermenting Ribena can be a challenge. WVMJ


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## saramc (Feb 27, 2013)

www.homewinery.com also offers a black currant concentrate. They sell the concentrates for gallon batches by phone, but the 64oz ones are available online and make a 5-gal batch. Good stuff. Very reasonable prices and shipping.


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

I feel like if you were to make a really strong starter you could overcome the sorbate. This thinking comes from the collective experiences of many new winemakers who try and use sorbate to stop fermentation who end up with bottle bombs. Ie Sorbate is really great for stopping renewed fermentation, but a really hungry and active fermentation should be able to make it.

Also, If you feel like it you could try the advice of first pitching bread yeast in with it to "adsorb" the sorbate However, I am not sure if that is really how it works.


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

BTW nice article on the issue

https://mycotopia.net/forums/trip-inn/58550-cider-potassium-sorbate.html


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

Well I've achieved fermentation. It's pretty weak right now. I racked the BC after the Montrachet did nothing for 24 hrs. There was a small amount of pink dead yeast at the bottom. 
I then made a 12 hr starter from K1-V1116 and inverse sugar. 
Now I've got a rather lethargic batch brewing. 
Ill probably make a Welches/inverse starter and top up. I lost almost a liter in the Montrachet racking.


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

Any idea what the mix ratio of sugar to water to Welches Concentrate for an SG of 1.080?

I'm not sure if you mix the Welches to an SG of 1.080 by using less water...
Or
Mix the Welches normally (3 cups water to 1 cup Concentrate) and then add inverted sugar to bring the SG up. 

Sorry, I usually use Grapes or Juice. I have co concentrate experience.


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

Well, first you need to take the SG of the concentrate. If it is too high to measure then keep adding water untill you can measure it. Once you figure out the SG of the concentrate find the difference between that and 1.080.. Say that ends up being .020.. Then you would add enough sugar to reach .020 depending on your volume.

Ie if it takes 1 lb of sugar to rach .020 in 1 gallon of water but you only have a quart of volume you would add .25 lbs of sugar to make your 1 quart raise up roughly .020 points..

Does this help?


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

Not really. I'm familiar with my mix measurements. I was wondering if the standard practice was to only use water to correct the SG when using Welches concentrate. 
I wouldn't want anyone to frown upon my Hobo wine starter. lol
I tried to take the SG of just the concentrate but it's so sweet it's off the scale. 
As its a for starter only I was thinking of only adding water to bring the juice down to my desired SG and then pitch the activated proofed yeast. That way I avoid "stretching" the grape flavor.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Feb 28, 2013)

Did we not see the post about boiling the Ribena to neutralize the sorbate the way the Brits who make wine from Ribena do it???? WVMJ


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

Right, want to try a little experiment? Give me the volume of the concentrate and the number of servings as well as the grams of sugar per serving. I will then attempt to calculate how much water you need to add hit 1.080... If im close I will show the math.. If not then o well lol.


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

I did see that. I didn't boil the Ribena. But I did add 2 liters boiling water to every 1L Ribena. 
If I do attempt Black Currant again I'll save myself the headache and buy the concentrate online. 
Great Tips all around. 

I think the fermentation is underway. 

I'm testing the Montrachet to see if its viable. That's 2 out of 4 batches that didn't take off like a firestorm when pitched. I have a hunch the Montrachet I purchased on eBay is dead. 
I tried to get Montrachet locally but this is a Lalvin town.


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

Here's the info on the Welches. 

It's a 341 ml can. I desire an SG of 1.080


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

Alright, lets see what I can do for you ( :


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

Alright, the results are in. 

1st)

I calculated the sugar density in your concentrate to be .619 g/ml 

2nd)

I then found that it takes 27.5 oz sugar (by weight) per gallon to hit 1.080 by using a data table.

I then converted oz sugar/gallon into grams sugar/ml 

I found that to be .205g/ml

3) Then by using a little bit of algebra and unit anylsis I said that the Starting concentration * starting volume=Desired Concentration*ending volume

.619(g/ml)*341(ml)=X(ml)*.205 (g/ml)

*Solving for X your final volume will need to be 1029.65 ml Ie you need to add 688.65 ml of water to your concentrate to hit 1.080.
*

Would you please test and see if this works? Make sure when you measure the SG that it is WELL MIXED... VERY WELL MIXED and that its temperature is close to 60 degrees F.

If you would like more details on how I did this I would be more than glad to help.


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

You were almost bang on. Probably in all actuality... Exactly right. 
I added 684 ml of water to bring it up to 1.080 @ 70°


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## jimmyjames23 (Feb 28, 2013)

Ironically that was exactly 2 cans of water as opposed to it's prescribed three cans of water for table consumption. Do you think the people at Welches had winemaking in mind?


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## seth8530 (Feb 28, 2013)

HAHA hooray for engineering! Glad to see it worked! I doubt they had winemakers in mind but its cool that it worked out that way. Do you understand how I did what I did? Or just dont care to really know? Its fine either way of course.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 1, 2013)

Yup. I used the same equation to figure it out. 

But my measuring beaker doesn't do fractions of ml very well. So I just rounded up to the closest ml then tested the SG again. I think my hydrometer is off a half a point or so.


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## seth8530 (Mar 1, 2013)

Oh yeah, that is perfectly fine. The error in your hydrometer measurement will overtake any kind of fractional ml you decide to round up any day of the week.


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## saramc (Mar 2, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Ie if it takes 1 lb of sugar to rach .020 in 1 gallon of water but you only have a quart of volume you would add .25 lbs of sugar to make your 1 quart raise up roughly .020 points..



I know the quote is an example, but...just wanted to clarify that one cup of sugar will raise SG of one gallon by 0.020...a pound will do much more.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 2, 2013)

Then the question begs.... How many cups in a pound and what type sugar and density?
One is volume and the other is mass. 
I can use a cup of granulated beet sugar or a cup of coarse cane sugar. Both will weigh differently and both have considerable differences in sweetness. I find cane sugar much sweeter. 
Ie. I put 3 heaping tsp of white granulated in my Tea but I only put 2 level tsp of can sugar to get an equivalent sweetness. 
We need a sweetness/density converter for every brand of sugar. 
But... I did notice that if you buy dextrose at a wine shop their is a SG/volume calculator printed on the label.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 2, 2013)

But all this aside. My Ribena Concentrate is bubbling along furiously. I added the dried elderberries. 
Though next time I'll probably skip the Ribena and order blackcurrant concentrate online from a wine supplier.


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## saramc (Mar 2, 2013)

jimmyjames23 said:


> Then the question begs.... How many cups in a pound and what type sugar and density?
> One is volume and the other is mass.



One pound weighs 453.592 grams.
My notes indicate 1# granulated sugar equals 2 1/3 cup.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 2, 2013)

saramc said:


> One pound weighs 453.592 grams.
> My notes indicate 1# granulated sugar equals 2 1/3 cup.



2 1/3 cup per pound?
Do your notes indicate the SG of 1 lb of sugar. Per a certain water dilution level?


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## seth8530 (Mar 2, 2013)

Sarmac, you are correct. That was just an example and you were right to point that out.

Jimmy,

according to this table http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/hydrom.asp one lb of sugar raises 1 gallon of water up by around 45 points.

BTW according to google sugar has a density of 1.59 g/cm^3

This means that 1.59 grams of sugar would fill up 1 cubic cm or 1 ml. 

So to skip all the nice maths that I love so much you could divide the grams of sugar you want by the density of sugar to get volume

Ie if you need 100 grams of sugar you could do this. 

100g/(1.59g/ml)= 62.89 ml



I accomplished this with dimensional anylsis.. But it can also be summarized by the formula D=M/V


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 3, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Sarmac, you are correct. That was just an example and you were right to point that out.
> 
> Jimmy,
> 
> ...



That's some "sweet" math.


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## seth8530 (Mar 3, 2013)

heh, your a punny man.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm a "barrel" of laughs.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 8, 2013)

Day 10 and I usually rack at this point. Problem is... My SG is only at 1.012. Ribena is sooooo slow.


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