# Dealing with sediment from pressing whites



## spaniel (Sep 3, 2013)

I have >10 years of experience with fruit wines...only 3 years with grape wines. The bulk of my grapes (by weight) are Cayuga White.

My process has bee:
- Crush grapes (the old fashioned way)
- Put grapes in press; collect free run wine
- Press grapes; separate pressed juice into a separate batch

Here is where I run into the issue. Relatively quickly, the juice separates into relatively clear juice and some solids. I've tried to carefully collect the clearer wine off the top and get it into glass carboys through one of the funnels with a moderately fine filter in it. 

This year, I ended up with 29 gallons of juice total. I was able to get 12-13 gallons of it -- 2 full 6.5gal carboys -- running it through the funnel with filter. The rest of it began to plug the filter so quickly that I gave up and just removed the filter and put all of it in glass.

Today after 24hrs sitting, the 2 carboys that had been through the filter had pretty compact lees on the bottom and I was able to take very clear juice off the top. The two carboys I had not been able to run through the filter were nearly 50% full of loose lees, and the "clear" juice was also much cloudier.

The pressed juice had much less issue with lees. I lost only ~.5gal of the 5gal carboy to lees.

In total, of 29gal of juice, I lost 20-25% to lees after a 24hr sit.

I'm concerned that I'm losing more juice than I needed to out of the two 5gal carboys that were 1/3-1/2 lees (the ones I could not filter).

I'm curious how others deal with this issue...or if 20-25% loss is just the price you pay. I'm hesitant to initiate fermentation with that volume of lees in the juice.

I did try putting the lees into a fine mesh winemaking bag in the press, but it pretty much plugged immediately and did little good. I ended up throwing the stuff out anyways.

MTA: All of these carboys got ample pectic enzyme and were at 70F during the 24hr sit.


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## photoactivist (Sep 6, 2013)

I don't suggest fermenting on juice lees, or gross lees if you're making white wine.
I, too, had a considerable amount of juice lees after first pressing. With white wines (or wines treated as a white fermentation) I will usually press the grapes, then add a fining agent to the juice, then let the juice lees settle for a day or two before racking to a new carboy and fermenting. Often this helps avoid grape solids and other muck from influencing the flavor and aroma of your wine, as they will usually impart bitter and unpleasant aromas. Also, juice is less delicate than wine, and finings such as bentonite can strip wine of some of its character. After that, you can just let gravity do its job in clearing the wine and settling the cloudiness, as well as have the added bonus of aging sur lie (on the fine lees), which can give a bit of texture to your wine if you can master it.


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## photoactivist (Sep 6, 2013)

spaniel said:


> I did try putting the lees into a fine mesh winemaking bag in the press, but it pretty much plugged immediately and did little good.



P.S.- also, I don't suggest trying to filter fresh pressed juice. My experience has been the same as yours, and just makes a big plug in your filter, usually resulting in more mess.
My best advice is to go ahead and funnel press juice right into your carboy, no strainer, and use a fining agent (if your press juice is juice, not already fermented wine that was on the grape skins), then just let gravity separate the juice lees for you. You WILL get a large deposit of lees on the bottom from time to time. It's just the biz.


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## JohnT (Sep 6, 2013)

My suggestion is the following.. 

1) Don't crush the whites. Simply dump the whole clusters into the press and apply pressure very slowly. This reduces the amount of tannins in the wine and makes for a much softer white.

2) Add k-meta and place juice into the fridge for 4 or 5 days. Many pro wineries do this very same thing. If you tour a winery and see any tanks with a thick layer of frost on the outside, chances are they are doing exactly what I describe. The cold and k-meta prevents spoilage. The cold also decreases the soluability of the juice, thus removing even more sediment. The extended time also allow the sediment layer to compress making racking much more effective. 

3) Rack wine and allow to warm up before you add your yeast.


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## manvsvine (Sep 7, 2013)

The problem with whole cluster pressing is that you will produce even less wine , the wine will be less aromatic and you need a bladder or hydraulic press to do it . Manual Ratchet basket whole cluster pressing just doesn't work well.

We crush and stem , sulfite , let sit on the skins for a couple hours then press . You can use enzymes which help settling and aromatics , use a specific white wine product.

http://morewinemaking.com/products/lallzyme-cuvee-blanc.html

Let settle for 24 hours in a cool spot . Then rack off the pulp sediment .

Then ferment the settled juice .

Your losses are about average , 24 hours settling will help.

We sometimes freeze the settled pulp and later use it when making cider or fruit wines , just thaw it and add it to your apple or fruit must .

Again your losses are pretty normal for white wine , I would expect 15-20% with a basket press , less with a bladder and enzymes


The only tanks with frost on them i see are being glycol cold stabilized post fermentation , most winemakers want to get fermentation going on a white ASAP to prevent browning and retain aromatics .


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## spaniel (Sep 7, 2013)

JohnT said:


> My suggestion is the following..
> 
> 1) Don't crush the whites. Simply dump the whole clusters into the press and apply pressure very slowly. This reduces the amount of tannins in the wine and makes for a much softer white.



This would take an awful lot more psi than my little antique sausage press can generate. I would definitely need to destem before applying that much pressure anyways, which is another thing I don't have the equipment to do in a reasonable manner.

It sounds like what I'm doing is about right. It all seems to have turned out fine except that the clearest batch doesn't want to start...another day and I'm going to have to just try switching yeast on it. Never had a batch start this hard.


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## photoactivist (Sep 8, 2013)

spaniel said:


> It sounds like what I'm doing is about right. It all seems to have turned out fine except that the clearest batch doesn't want to start...another day and I'm going to have to just try switching yeast on it. Never had a batch start this hard.



May I inquire as to some of your details?
What Specific Gravity is your must starting at? What temp are your must and ambient room temp? What yeast strain are you using, and how old is it? Have you used any yeast nutrient or energizer?

All of these things may be affecting starting your fermentation.


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## spaniel (Sep 8, 2013)

photoactivist said:


> May I inquire as to some of your details?
> What Specific Gravity is your must starting at? What temp are your must and ambient room temp? What yeast strain are you using, and how old is it? Have you used any yeast nutrient or energizer?
> 
> All of these things may be affecting starting your fermentation.



All of those things were within range. The second yeast packet took an extra day longer than it should have but it's started now.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 8, 2013)

If you're crushing and pressing why are you waiting several hours in between. I don't get it. Why not just crush, destem then press. Add you meta and enzymes and wait several days for the sediment to fall out. I certainly wouldn't be doing it every 24 hours. Your just adding more oxygen into it. Why are you afraid of a few lees when fermenting? I agree you don't want to start the fermentation with an inch or two in it.


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## spaniel (Sep 8, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> If you're crushing and pressing why are you waiting several hours in between. I don't get it. Why not just crush, destem then press. Add you meta and enzymes and wait several days for the sediment to fall out. I certainly wouldn't be doing it every 24 hours. Your just adding more oxygen into it. Why are you afraid of a few lees when fermenting? I agree you don't want to start the fermentation with an inch or two in it.



I'm not sure where you're reading that there were hours in between crushing and pressing; I looked back and I don't see that in my post. (??) At most there was an hour while I cooked lunch to thank my picking crew. We were dumping straight from the crush into the press, at least as fast as the press could keep up.

I'm not afraid of "a few" lees when fermenting. After I took the clearest juice off the top, after 24 hrs settling a couple of the jugs or less clear juice were more like 1/3 loose lees; I would not want to ferment on that. The lees in the more clear juice were minimal and more compact. I racked off them because I could but for no other reason. Perhaps it was lost in translation, but there was only one 24-hr sit involved before a single racking and then pitching yeast. It was plenty clear after 24 hours.

So far I've been hesitant to add bentonite pre-ferment to settle these as I don't want to end up stripping too much flavor. I find the contribution that juice is "less fragile" to flavor removal than wine interesting, I'm curious if this is the consensus.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 8, 2013)

Sorry buddy it was manvsvine that posted that. I was reading all the posts then just commented, my bad.


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## spaniel (Sep 8, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> Sorry buddy it was manvsvine that posted that. I was reading all the posts then just commented, my bad.



No worries.


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## manvsvine (Sep 9, 2013)

The waiting a couple hours between crushing and pressing is done to improve aromatics and returns . 

Page 11 of more wines white wine manual http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wwhiw.pdf

It's a great primer on white wine making and free 

Or read Pambianachi , techniques in home winemaking 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1550652362/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20. Best 20 bucks you'll ever spend 

It's very commonly done especialy with varieties like Pinot Gris , Gewurtztraminer and reisling where varietal character is wanted. But you can't let it macerate too long , 4 hours is common 12 would be the extream .

Then you press , let settle off the pulp sediment 6 to 24 hours , once . This is called clarifying the must. Page 15 of the more wine manual 

Quote "Removing these solids is highly recommended because doing so dramatically lowers the production of heavy, harsh, green/herbaceous, and sharp notes from potentially developing in our white wines during the fermentation. When the solids are removed we get cleaner, more aromatic and fruity wines. Quite simply: a clean juice makes a clean wine" 

If you buy white juice from companies like brehm this has already been done for you .

Then you pitch yeast and proceed with your ferment without further delay .

So2 at crush is critical in this process. 50ppm .
And your fruit must be in great shape.


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## JohnT (Sep 9, 2013)

Folks, 

Although I do have a hydraulic press, I would still go with whole cluster pressing for whites. 

Crushing/destemming grinds the white grapes and produces an end product that is too tanic and bitter. I press under very low pressure and over several hours. After every hour or so, I back off the pressure and give the grapes a gentle stir. I would suggest folks try this method even if they have a simple ratchet press.

My results using this method was a much more soft and crisp white wine. I liked the results so much that I doubt that I will ever crush/destem whites again.


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## spaniel (Sep 9, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Folks,
> 
> Although I do have a hydraulic press, I would still go with whole cluster pressing for whites.
> 
> ...



My press is simple cranked, not even ratchet, and would not crush whole grapes to a meaningful extent. I've tried.

Perhaps those that crush mechanically have a different experience, but I have not had any bitter/tannic tendencies at all to my whites doing things the way I do. And I crush/press with the stems still there simply because I don't have the time or equipment to easily remove them. I do move from crush to press without meaningful delay to avoid soaking out bitters from the stems however.

This year, after the crush, ~80% of the juice flowed out with zero pressure and I set that aside from the 20% that needed to be pressed out. We will see how the taste difference is. I did that experiment last year and the free run WAS a bit better, with the pressed having a little bit more varietal character to it....but in perhaps a mistake I sent the pressed and not free run into the competition and it still did quite well in judging.

I agree in the end you want to take as little from the stems as possible...perhaps there are different ways to achieve the same ends...and whole cluster pressing or manual crushing may be two ways that get a similar result. I'll comment on mechanical crushing when I'm fortunate enough to get that opportunity.


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## JohnT (Sep 9, 2013)

spaniel said:


> My press is simple cranked, not even ratchet, and would not crush whole grapes to a meaningful extent. I've tried.
> 
> Perhaps those that crush mechanically have a different experience, but I have not had any bitter/tannic tendencies at all to my whites doing things the way I do. And I crush/press with the stems still there simply because I don't have the time or equipment to easily remove them. I do move from crush to press without meaningful delay to avoid soaking out bitters from the stems however.
> 
> ...


 

Perhaps the crusher you use is kinder and gentler on the grapes than the crusher/destemmer I have. At any rate, I can not argue with the results I get.


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## manvsvine (Sep 9, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Perhaps the crusher you use is kinder and gentler on the grapes than the crusher/destemmer I have. At any rate, I can not argue with the results I get.



Fair enough we all have our ways And preferences. I would throw my lot in with the likes of Shea Comfort and Daniel Pambianachi . 

99 percent of white wines are made by crushing and stemming first , so it would be unfair to make a blanket statement that crushing and stemming automatically makes a bitter wine. We use a basic electric crusher destemmer and let sit on the skins for a couple hours , no bitterness , several gold medals .

I've never seen a manual basket press that could do whole clusters without leaving a large portion of them unpressed.

A long slow pressing over hours would introduce an oxidization risk . You might be fine but it would make me nervous


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## spaniel (Sep 9, 2013)

JohnT said:


> Perhaps the crusher you use is kinder and gentler on the grapes than the crusher/destemmer I have. At any rate, I can not argue with the results I get.



As I have stated, this is the crusher I use:






This is why I state the perhaps what I do, and what you do, are more similar than using a mechanical destemmer/crusher. Until I get a mechanical crusher myself, I don't feel comfortable stating any firm opinion.

I can't argue with my results either...I got a bronze in the Indiana Wine Competition, one of the larger amateur competitions, with what turned out to be my second-rate product. Right now I'm sipping a glass of my free run (superior product) and it is certainly superior to what I sent in and has absolutely no hint of bitterness or any adverse effect of the process I used to make the wine.


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## photoactivist (Sep 9, 2013)

spaniel said:


> As I have stated, this is the crusher I use&hellip;


Love your crusher, Spaniel. Simple, yet thorough.

Well, I must say this thread has become quite lively with everyone's two cents. And, of course, as we vintners are very likely to do, sounds as though defenses are starting to crop up with our preferential methods.
Just remember that the history of wine is bathed in millennia of trial and error. There is no right or wrong.
&hellip;with the exception of sweet reds. Ew.

But seriously, lets celebrate our diversity instead of drawing lines in the sand.
"Diversity Tomorrow. Because today is almost over."

P.S.- if you're willing to share, I'd still be interested in hearing more details of your white treatment, Spaniel. I just about finished two batches of alcoholic fermentation of Riesling, and used separate yeast strains, hoping to produce different responses from the same vineyard grapes. I had quite a bit of sediment, as well. I let one carboy settle before racking, and the other I left a bit cloudy. The first should be a clean and fresh Riesling, while the other will produce an earthy, rich wine.


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## manvsvine (Sep 10, 2013)

Since when does presenting a variety of methods become drawing lines in the sand ? 

As long as its respectful , debate is what forums do best . 
Ideally a mix of experience and easily referenced resources come to the fore and we all learn from it .

Universities used to teach this to freshmen.

Sharing alternate experience and views is valid and should be encouraged , or why have a forum?


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## photoactivist (Sep 10, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> Since when does presenting a variety of methods become drawing lines in the sand ?
> 
> As long as its respectful , debate is what forums do best .
> Ideally a mix of experience and easily referenced resources come to the fore and we all learn from it .
> ...



I suppose it depends on what one means by "drawing lines in the sand"...
I never said sharing alternate experience and views shouldn't be encouraged. In fact, one of the things my step-father never understood is how my mother and I could share a disputation for hours.

So, what, pray tell, do universities teach to their freshmen nowadays, master Yoda? Aside from the concept that college is more about pushing over priced books...


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## JohnT (Sep 10, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> Fair enough we all have our ways And preferences. I would throw my lot in with the likes of Shea Comfort and Daniel Pambianachi .
> 
> 99 percent of white wines are made by crushing and stemming first , so it would be unfair to make a blanket statement that crushing and stemming automatically makes a bitter wine. We use a basic electric crusher destemmer and let sit on the skins for a couple hours , no bitterness , several gold medals .
> 
> ...


 

I have a hydralic basket press (picture below). This does not seem to have any problem pressing out whole clusters..

As far as oxidation, this does not happen over just a couple of hours and there is a benefit to having O2 exposure prior to fermentation. I have yet to have a single white wine oxidize on me. 

I also think you would be shocked by how many pro wineries press wole clusters. In fact, I was put on to this technique after a conversation I had with the head winemaker at unionville winery, Cameron Stark (Educated at UC Davis and has received several 90+ ratings from Wine Enthusiast mag).

Much like you, I have won many medals and awards (Indy, AWS, Winemaker Mag, etc). I even won a "winemaker of the year" title (and the trip to Napa that came with it - see my avatar) in 2010. All outward validation aside, it truly does come down to personal taste and preferences. 

I never meant to imply that all crushed/destemmed wines are automatically bitter, I am just saying that I found whole cluster pressings less bitter, more crisp and clean in taste. In short, I like fewer tannins in my whites. Please do not take this personal, it is simply a matter of taste.

I would still encourage the experimenters out there to give it a try. If it does not work for you, you could always run them through the destemmer afterwords.


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## manvsvine (Sep 10, 2013)

Nice press ! 

When I said basket press I ment a standard manually actuated one , Which is the most commonly used by homies . Not a hydraulic one .
I guess the point is unless you have something more powerfull , like a bladder (which also uses a basket) , hydraulic or screw press , whole cluster is next to impossible using a ratchet type basket press.

Nothing taken personal , there are many ways to skin a cat .


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## spaniel (Sep 11, 2013)

photoactivist said:


> P.S.- if you're willing to share, I'd still be interested in hearing more details of your white treatment, Spaniel. I just about finished two batches of alcoholic fermentation of Riesling, and used separate yeast strains, hoping to produce different responses from the same vineyard grapes. I had quite a bit of sediment, as well. I let one carboy settle before racking, and the other I left a bit cloudy. The first should be a clean and fresh Riesling, while the other will produce an earthy, rich wine.



-Pick
-Crush
-Load in press, collect free run and set aside
-Press, collect in second container
-Optionally, after gunk has settled a bit, scoop clearer juice and separate that again as a separate batch
-Add sulfate and get juice in glass
-Put at 60F for ~24hrs
-Take Brix, rack onto sugar + yeast energizer
-Record pH/TA but where I live I've yet to ADD acid
-Pitch yeast
-Maintain fermentation as close to 55-60F range as possible
-Ferment to dry (~2-3 weeks)
-Rack after max clearing reached
-Cold stabilize ~1 month
-Bentonite if necessary (it typically takes some)
-Check pH/TA; last year was first with this equipment and no adjustments were necessary
-Rack, add sorbate
- ~48hrs later back-sweeten to taste
-Let sit until I feel like bottling, rack of any fine sediment (very little by then)

Last year I used my ancient kegerator for cooling, it is finicky but I can get it to stick in the 60-65F range. This year due to much higher yield I bought a used fridge off Craigslist for $50. Given record temps I am glad I did but it is impossible to get it to stay in range. I check it twice a day, it has ranged as high as 72F and as low as 45F. Last night it was 96F out, so as fermentation was still going at 45F I just left it as if I was not careful I would end up at 80F before I could check it again! Next year I'm getting a temp controller as discussed on here.

To JohnT's point about whole cluster being crisper, I do not doubt it. It is just not something I can do with my equipment.

As a biochemist I am prone to experiment. Last year I was really rushed with my harvest/crush. I saved the free run, then pressed and saved that. I realized that I'd crushed so fast and it was after dark and I'd missed a lot of grapes. So I re-crushed and pressed again for another smaller batch! Everything else was kept EXACTLY the same; at the end, chemistry was identical (pH/TA/SG). I send in the pressed and got a bronze with that. The twice pressed was perfectly drinkable but not something I would enter in a contest or give away. The free run was crisper and I likely would have gotten one medal higher with that, as that was the weakness of the pressed batch in judging.

IMHO the "light crush" I did last year where I missed a lot...and doing it with feet...was probably a rough corollary to whole bunch pressing. This year I did a better job crushing and took my time and the ratio of free runressed juice went from 50:50 to 80:20.


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## Deezil (Sep 11, 2013)

I dont know how I'm so "late to the party", but..



manvsvine said:


> The waiting a couple hours between crushing and pressing is done to improve aromatics and returns .
> 
> ....
> 
> ...





manvsvine said:


> We crush and stem , sulfite , let sit on the skins for a couple hours then press . You can use enzymes which help settling and aromatics , use a specific white wine product.
> 
> http://morewinemaking.com/products/lallzyme-cuvee-blanc.html
> 
> ...



This is basically my exact process, the same enzyme, and the reasoning for how my 2012 Riesling Escapade went down; took me ~18 hours to destem and hand crush ~150lbs of Riesling grapes.. So the first ones that were crushed, sat for past the 'extreme' while a majority were in the 'extreme' to 'common' range


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## spaniel (Sep 11, 2013)

Deezil said:


> took me ~18 hours to destem and hand crush ~150lbs of Riesling grapes.. )



Yeah...I would love to destem before I crush...but until I can pop $500 for a stemmer/crusher, with 3 young kids that kind of dedication is not happening!! There is ideal then there is realistic (for me)!


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