# Can glass carboys even be sanitized?



## MonkeyK (Apr 23, 2013)

I started making wine a year ago and have been using Star San as a sanitizer for all of my equipment. I thought that it was doing well, but recently ran across some articles that suggest that Star San may be a poor choice for sanitizing my glass containers.

The information that I found was on the resource section Daniel Pambianchi's website

In particular Mr Pambianchi has written an article "The Definitive Guide to Washing and Sanitizing Winemaking Equipment" (on the above page) which notes that Star San is a poor choice for sanitizing glass carboys. The reasoning is that phosphoric acid will wear the surface of the glass. I believe that he draws data from a paper published by the Better Bottle company: http://www.better-bottle.com/pdf/WashingSanitizingStudy.pdf

I understand that Better Bottle has an interest in saying that glass carboys cannot be cleaned, but if this info is not correct, I would hope that I could find something countering such a statement. Also, if Mr Pambianchi is right, I have to be concerned as I have been sanitizing my carboys with Star San and even storing excess mixed diluted Star San in my unused carboys.

Anyone know how accurate this is? I can see that it is not recommended to use phosphoric acid on soda lime glass: http://www.udel.edu/chem/GlassShop/PhysicalProperties.htm
but is this what carboys are made of? and how bad is it to apply dilute Star San to the carboy if it is made of soda lime glass?

I sent a message to to Five Star asking them if Star San is safe in my carboy. If I get a response, I will post it in this thread.


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## MonkeyK (Apr 23, 2013)

As a quick follow-up, the articles reference really leave very little in the way of options for cleaning glass carboys. This suggests scepticism is in order.
In his article, Dan Pambianchi recommends
Natural 2X Concentrated Laundry Detergent (Seventh Generation Inc.)

CGA Pro-Zyme
CGA Super Pro-Zyme
CGA Bio-Zyme
(PDQ Manufacturing / Health Lab Products)

and nothing else


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 23, 2013)

Sorry But I did not read your entire post - 
I use oxyclean for those sturbon stains and use a carboy cleaner ( that attaches to a drill ) I believe that you can not get a surface better than glass to properly to keep sanitized. 

I use only meta with citric acid to sanitize all my equipment - including carboys. 
Glass Carboys have been around for a very long time, plastic better bottles have not been out that long. (in comparison to glass )
I want to make myself clear I am not condoning plastic at all - it just cant be proven like glass can. 
If I am concerned about breakage or weight I would look into the vacuum setup - where you dont have to lift full glass carboys anymore.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Apr 23, 2013)

I agree with steve on the glass. for wine use K-meta, for beer use star san. 
The carboy cleaner is great.


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## MonkeyK (Apr 24, 2013)

Not all glass is the same, and I don't know what kind of glass is used to make carboys. However Mr Pambianchi's article, which he notes appeared in the June 2012 issue of Winemaker Magazine, suggests that even kmeta is inappropriate for sanitizing carboy glass. 

I created this thread more as a skeptical inquiry into the article's claim than a question about the best sanitizer.


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## kevinlfifer (Apr 24, 2013)

I store my cleaned carboys, stoppered, with a 1/2 cup of K-meta solution in them. A quick rinse and they are ready to go.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Apr 24, 2013)

The next step ( expensive) is UV.
I would wonder about the his reasoning, I have not read the article yet, but if you can't sanitize a carboy then what?


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## MonkeyK (Apr 24, 2013)

I have a response from Five Star basically discrediting the article WRT Star San. I am asked for permission to post the response here and will do so if permission is given.


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## Pumpkinman (Apr 25, 2013)

I look forward to reading their reply.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 25, 2013)

I would go ahead and reply 
if there is a problem - i am sure a moderator will step in


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## MonkeyK (Apr 25, 2013)

The permission that I am looking for is from Five Star. In the past (on other forums) I have shared responses from employees of companies that I have contacted and been told that they wish I hadn't done so.
It seems to me that it is in the best interest of Five Star to refute this sort of informaton so hopefully they will be agreeable to me posting.


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## Turock (Apr 25, 2013)

But glass in an inert substance. I've always read that the way to sanitize a carboy is to put meta solution in it and cap it and let it set a few minutes because it's the gas from the solution that does the sanitizing.


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## GreginND (Apr 25, 2013)

There is a reason why strong mineral acids (HCl, sulfuric, phosphoric, etc) are stored in glass containers. Because they do not react with glass under normal conditions. As a matter of fact, we never had concentrated mineral acids until glass was developed to allow them to be distilled pure. Phosphoric acid can etch glass if heated well over 400°F, but not at room temperature. I don't think you will have any problem with any acids from starsan.


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## ibglowin (Apr 25, 2013)

I agree with Greg re glass and acid. If it wasn't non reactive (impervious) it would not be sold in a glass container. Also remember sanitization is *NOT* the same as sterilization!


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## jswordy (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh Lord! I am ever intrigued by the intricacies of winemaking.

I rack, put water in the used carboy, shake it back and forth, dump water, do that once more, add Easy Clean solution, shake it back and forth, pour it out, then pour some Easy Clean in to leave there til next use. Annnnnd ... DONE.

Next use, I shake it, dump, add one more bit of Easy Clean and shake, dump, then use.

While I'm sure that's too easy to be correct, it has worked for years.


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## MNwino (Apr 30, 2013)

Ive been using Starsan for years in my carboys and sanitizing everything and have yet to have an infection in my beer or wine. Starsan works plain and simple. If it didn't million of homebrewers and breweries wouldn't use it. Heck even bars and food establishments use it to sanitize glasses and counters. I think Mr Pambianchi has some skin in the game so to speak. Maybe a $$$ deal with those crappy better bottles that scratch super easy


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