# New Barrel(s)



## Johnd

I've got three 6 gallon Vadai barrels in use right now. They're not neutral for another year or so, but the wines in them now will be in there for 5 months or so, the next wines for six months each. At this rate, I'm not moving wine through the barrels quick enough, and I've got year old wines that haven't been in them yet, and others in line behind them. Carboys are backing up. In short, need more barrels. 

I've loved my Vadai's, and am thinking about ordering a couple more 6 gallons, or maybe some in the 12 gallon range, maybe some American or French oak. Are there other sources you've gotten barrels from recently that you're happy with? Just want to consider other good options, your thoughts are appreciated.


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## Boatboy24

3-ish months should be enough is a 23 liter barrel.


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## AZMDTed

I just ordered my second 6 gallon Vadai for similar reasons. I looked for a 12 gallon one thinking about double batches but couldn't find one.


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> 3-ish months should be enough is a 23 liter barrel.



Now Jim, you know I like my oak..... first wine sat 1 month, 2nd for two, 3rd for three, etc.. The fourth just came out of them, very nicely oaked I must say, so number 5 is in all three and I'm planning on 5 months for those. As the imparted oak flavor continues to fall back with each subsequent wine, I'll be maxing out at six to avoid overoxidation in the small barrels. Once neutral, I still plan six months in barrel with wine stix for flavor. At that rate, however, I can only oak 6 carboys per year, but I have 12 in waiting, and 12 carboys worth of must coming in a month or so.......getting the drift?


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## ibglowin

They don't make a 12 gallon size but they do make a 40L which is ~11gal which leaves just enough to top off with for a 3-6 month run. Plus the 40L is only like $23 more than the 23L.


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## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> They don't make a 12 gallon size but they do make a 40L which is ~11gal which leaves just enough to top off with for a 3-6 month run. Plus the 40L is only like $23 more than the 23L.



I saw those too and had the same thought. I'm doing some varietals this year that would be accommodated well by the 40's. Do you get all your barrels from Vadai?


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## ibglowin

I have 4 (23L) Vadai's long since neutral. This past Winter I thought about getting a 40 or 50L Vadai but went with two 15G Flextanks as it was not only cheaper but I liked the fact that they passed O2 like a barrel, no angels share to worry about, larger in capacity, ball valve, and you can rinse and store them empty if you don't need them for a season. My 4 Vadai's are still going strong after 3-4 years of continuous service without problems. I nuked them good for a week last Fall with a sanitizing solution of KMETA and Citric Acid just trying to make sure I keep them as clean as possible. The French Oak barrels are extremely pricey. American Oak barrels can be found for pretty cheap but I am not a huge fan of American Oak and find I can achieve what I want from a flavor profile by using oak adjuncts. Vadai's have always been the best bang for the buck. The French may be a little better made but they are hard to find in the smaller size(s) and if you do find a smaller one they are usually 2X the cost of a Vadai.


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## Johnd

@ibglowin 

I didn't know that about a flex tank Mike. So, how does that work, as the micro oxygénation / evaporation takes place, the lid drops with the wine volume? Then it's just a matter of oak staves, etc. for flavoring I guess?


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## ibglowin

No evaporation, only micro oxidation. No bugs to worry about. I am using a mixture of staves and Xoakers.


Advances in Premium Wine Storage and Maturation


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## Boatboy24

Flex tanks are not variable volume though, correct?


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## Boatboy24

Johnd said:


> Now Jim, you know I like my oak..... first wine sat 1 month, 2nd for two, 3rd for three, etc.. The fourth just came out of them, very nicely oaked I must say, so number 5 is in all three and I'm planning on 5 months for those. As the imparted oak flavor continues to fall back with each subsequent wine, I'll be maxing out at six to avoid overoxidation in the small barrels. Once neutral, I still plan six months in barrel with wine stix for flavor. At that rate, however, I can only oak 6 carboys per year, but I have 12 in waiting, and 12 carboys worth of must coming in a month or so.......getting the drift?



Get your micro-ox and concentration from the barrel - 3 months should do it. Then, as you said, get your oak from cubes, staves, etc. Those barrels will be neutral before you know it anyway.


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## ibglowin

That is correct. They are fixed volume and the smallest is 15G.



Boatboy24 said:


> Flex tanks are not variable volume though, correct?


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## Johnd

The new barrels are in, barrel prep is complete, no leaks or any other issues with the 23L or 40L Vadai's. I'm running a kit or two through each one of them before putting any grape wines in them, then designating them as my MLF only barrels, i.e.: no more kit wines in them. 

I've got the timing of each wine in/out pretty well in hand for the 23L. For the 40, I'm thinking of roughly doubling the anticipated time of the 23, although the 40 isn't quite double in size. I anticipate first wine 8 weeks, second 16, third 24, etc. Tasting will determine the actual length of time in the 40, but I'm curious about anyone else's experience.


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## AZMDTed

Congrats on the new barrels, a fine compliment to your new wine room. I think doubling time for the 40 is about right, and I'm guessing you might even get a little more than double out of it. I don't have formulas but I'm thinking that the surface area is non-linear to the volume. As you say, judge by the taste.

I have two 23L Vadai's now and both went the thru prep and a kit Chardonnay primary fermentation without any hint of a leak. But as soon as I put a red in both gave me leaks. Manageable, just a little frustrating. 

Your 8 week, 16, 24 is that your projection for the 40L meaning that you do 4, 8, 16 weeks on the 23L? I'm still trying to get a good schedule on mine, but for my taste about 16 days for the first red batch was plenty of oak taste for me, though I'm sure that it will pull back over time.


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## Johnd

AZMDTed said:


> Congrats on the new barrels, a fine compliment to your new wine room. I think doubling time for the 40 is about right, and I'm guessing you might even get a little more than double out of it. I don't have formulas but I'm thinking that the surface area is non-linear to the volume. As you say, judge by the taste.
> 
> I have two 23L Vadai's now and both went the thru prep and a kit Chardonnay primary fermentation without any hint of a leak. But as soon as I put a red in both gave me leaks. Manageable, just a little frustrating.
> 
> Your 8 week, 16, 24 is that your projection for the 40L meaning that you do 4, 8, 16 weeks on the 23L? I'm still trying to get a good schedule on mine, but for my taste about 16 days for the first red batch was plenty of oak taste for me, though I'm sure that it will pull back over time.



Maybe one day I'll sit down and do the surface area to volume calculation for the 23 and 40, but I'm sure you're right, not a linear relationship. 

Had the same experience with all three of my 23's, leakfree til you put red wine in. No biggie, lasted a few weeks and a little mist of KMS sanitizing solution removes the stains almost immediately. 

Yes, that's my general time line in the 23L, 1 month, 2 months, etc. all the way up to 6 months. By the time you hit the end of your first 6 month wine, the barrel is 21 months old and approaching neutral, then I'll start adding wine stix. This is all taste dependent, of course, and it does pull back over time.


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## Boatboy24

Your timeline for the 40L sounds like a good estimate. As you said, let taste determine the final schedule.

On my 23's, I go 4-5, 6-8, 10-12; then 12+ from there on.


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## Johnd

Making preparations for the end of MLF on the 17 wine, just completed the oak stand for the new 39 gal. barrel. Probably run my first MLF check next weekend and get barrel prep started if the end is in sight. 

When I first rack the wine into the barrel, it’ll get free run wine, one Merlot, one PS, and 3 Cab, leaving one free run Cab, one press cab, and one press combo of the three wines. 

A year or so down the road, see about maybe rotating some of the 3 leftover carboys through there, but that’s a long ways off.........


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## Trevor7

Noob question: what is MLF? Thank you in advance.


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## ibglowin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation



Trevor7 said:


> Noob question: what is MLF? Thank you in advance.


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## Mac60

Johnd said:


> just completed the oak stand for the new 39 gal. barrel. .



Nice stand I'm thinking about making one similar but adding some casters. What size did you make it, what type or oak did you use looks like 1x 12"? & 1x4"


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## Johnd

Mac60 said:


> Nice stand I'm thinking about making one similar but adding some casters. What size did you make it, what type or oak did you use looks like 1x 12"? & 1x4"



When I make barrel stands, I always make the stand as wide and as deep as the head hoop diameter. IIRC, this one has a head hoop diameter of 18", so the stand was 18" wide and 18" deep. The lumber is premium red oak, 1x10 and 1x4. When cutting out the curves, a radius that is around 1" smaller than the barrel head radius is used, that way the barrel always rests on the haunches and doesn't rock.


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## Mac60

Johnd said:


> When I make barrel stands, I always make the stand as wide and as deep as the head hoop diameter. IIRC, this one has a head hoop diameter of 18", so the stand was 18" wide and 18" deep. The lumber is premium red oak, 1x10 and 1x4. When cutting out the curves, a radius that is around 1" smaller than the barrel head radius is used, that way the barrel always rests on the haunches and doesn't rock.



Thanks John, always great info.
Mike


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## Mac60

Johnd said:


> When I make barrel stands, I always make the stand as wide and as deep as the head hoop diameter. IIRC, this one has a head hoop diameter of 18", so the stand was 18" wide and 18" deep. The lumber is premium red oak, 1x10 and 1x4. When cutting out the curves, a radius that is around 1" smaller than the barrel head radius is used, that way the barrel always rests on the haunches and doesn't rock.



John, Thanks for your tip on your barrel stand, I just finished mine and added casters, makes it real easy for me to roll it out to clean and rack.


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## Boatboy24

Looks really nice, Mac. Great wine room too!!


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## Johnd

Mac60 said:


> John, Thanks for your tip on your barrel stand, I just finished mine and added casters, makes it real easy for me to roll it out to clean and rack.View attachment 44538



Looks like it came out great, nice work!!!


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## Mac60

Boatboy24 said:


> Looks really nice, Mac. Great wine room too!!


Thanks Jim


Johnd said:


> Looks like it came out great, nice work!!!


Thanks John


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## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Maybe one day I'll sit down and do the surface area to volume calculation for the 23 and 40, but I'm sure you're right, not a linear relationship.
> 
> Had the same experience with all three of my 23's, leakfree til you put red wine in. No biggie, lasted a few weeks and a little mist of KMS sanitizing solution removes the stains almost immediately.
> 
> Yes, that's my general time line in the 23L, 1 month, 2 months, etc. all the way up to 6 months. By the time you hit the end of your first 6 month wine, the barrel is 21 months old and approaching neutral, then I'll start adding wine stix. This is all taste dependent, of course, and it does pull back over time.



@Johnd, you help me all the time. I tried to find barrel sizes to do the calc for you but couldn't find anything. All I found was this link that I think should be pretty accurate. Also, I looked at the Saint Matrin barrels and couldn't find a 40l but they do look like quality barrels.

https://rechneronline.de/pi/barrel.php


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## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> @Johnd, you help me all the time. I tried to find barrel sizes to do the calc for you but couldn't find anything. All I found was this link that I think should be pretty accurate. Also, I looked at the Saint Matrin barrels and couldn't find a 40l but they do look like quality barrels.
> 
> https://rechneronline.de/pi/barrel.php



Thanks Fred, good info! I’ve never seen the St. Martins in anything under 30 gallons, but I didn’t look a lot. Wanting to use a good French barrel, just bought enough grapes to fill one.....


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## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Thanks Fred, good info! I’ve never seen the St. Martins in anything under 30 gallons, but I didn’t look a lot. Wanting to use a good French barrel, just bought enough grapes to fill one.....



When I went back and looked it gives volume and not surface area which is what I googled. So no help at all. Heck, I thought I did something for you.


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## stickman

I was playing around with the concept a few years ago and generated this very rough relationship. It is just using an average diameter to get the volume and calculating surface area as a cylinder. Close enough for my work at the time; I'm not sure it is worth going much further.
I made a correction, I only had one barrel head in the first calculation.


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## sour_grapes

Nice work, Stick!
As a physicist, I would have simplified even further, just saying that the surface-area-to-volume ratio scales as the cube root of the volume from dimensional analysis. (This is equivalent, I suppose, to modeling the barrel as a sphere.) I just ran those numbers to compare to your nice table, and my answers were within a few percent of yours. (The biggest deviation was for the 10-gallon barrel, and it was about 5%; e.g., I estimated 1.80 for the 10-gallon, compared to your 1.72.)


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## mainshipfred

stickman said:


> View attachment 44554
> 
> 
> I was playing around with the concept a few years ago and generated this very rough relationship. It is just using an average diameter to get the volume and calculating surface area as a cylinder. Close enough for my work at the time; I'm not sure it is worth going much further.



Cool calcs, I'm coming up with a little different numbers but I'm just guessing the area of the heads which I think is the difference.


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## Ajmassa

Crazy question. I'm positive I've seen this in more than a 1 video too. Why not take your neutral barells apart and re-toast em? It's something not only saving $ but also fun and interesting. 
And after 1 or 2 maybe you get a half decent routine down? 
I don't have any barrels...yet. So I'm naive. Is this a ridiculous thought?


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## mainshipfred

I wouldn't have a problem trying it, I figure after 4 or 5 years you already got your moneys worth and you only have to take apart one side. My first barrel leaked when I first got it and I just ground a cold chisel flat and worked my way around the barrel tightening the hoops. Worked like a charm.


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Crazy question. I'm positive I've seen this in more than a 1 video too. Why not take your neutral barells apart and re-toast em? It's something not only saving $ but also fun and interesting.
> And after 1 or 2 maybe you get a half decent routine down?
> I don't have any barrels...yet. So I'm naive. Is this a ridiculous thought?



It’s done all of the time, number the parts, disassemble, plane the staves down to clean wood, toast, and reassemble. You can also buy recooped barrels at a discount.


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## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> It’s done all of the time, number the parts, disassemble, plane the staves down to clean wood, toast, and reassemble. You can also buy recooped barrels at a discount.



I've been for recooped but can only find them in large barrels. I would think it would be hard to plane, sanding would be my guess.


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## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> I've been for recooped but can only find them in large barrels. I would think it would be hard to plane, sanding would be my guess.



I’d suspect that the vast majority of recooped would be of a larger size. 

As for the method of removing “used” wood to get to the new stuff, there are surely a number of ways to accomplish the task, by hand or with machines. If I were going to attack a few barrels, one of these planers would be on my list of equipment. The front and back guides adjust from concave to convex, to the desired curvature of the wood, the motor and rotary cutting head does the rest.


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## Ajmassa

Just Saw a video where barrel was disassembled and a couple passes with belt sander with rough grit paper did the trick. 
Wondering if just the heads could be removed and sanded while still together. 
I found a small 5 gal on Craigslist for $50 slightly used for sour beer


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## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> J
> I found a small 5 gal on Craigslist for $50 slightly used for sour beer



Isn't sour beer made by adding Brett? I wouldn't put my wine in that.


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## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Isn't sour beer made by adding Brett? I wouldn't put my wine in that.



That's why I put that out there. I was unsure if this could work. Everything I found says the other way- used wine barrels for sour beer-- can be ideal. But nothing for the opposite. 
Just did a quick sour beer search and you are 100% correct. So that's a big nay no on the barrel- Thanks


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