# Carbonic Maceration



## Vinobeau (Sep 25, 2019)

This looks like a very good year for wild grapes, so, I was looking thru a recipe book for some ideas. My book of choice was Mary's Recipes and I was drawn to "Wild Grape, Nouveau Style". I tried searching for Carbonic Maceration topics here and found some, but they seemed to a bit vague.

This recipe states, "Crush a handful of the grapes and toss them into the bottom of your primary, then add the rest of the grape bunches on top of them. Let stand for 4 to 5 weeks in a relatively cool area. By now the Carbonic Maceration should have taken place, and the grapes should be fairly sweet to the taste." Then you remove the stems, crush the grapes and start fermentation. No mention of any campden tabs.

Has any one ever done this? After a month will the grapes be mush? , which would make de stemming a pain! Any thoughts or ideas??


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## Johnd (Sep 25, 2019)

Vinobeau said:


> This looks like a very good year for wild grapes, so, I was looking thru a recipe book for some ideas. My book of choice was Mary's Recipes and I was drawn to "Wild Grape, Nouveau Style". I tried searching for Carbonic Maceration topics here and found some, but they seemed to a bit vague.
> 
> This recipe states, "Crush a handful of the grapes and toss them into the bottom of your primary, then add the rest of the grape bunches on top of them. Let stand for 4 to 5 weeks in a relatively cool area. By now the Carbonic Maceration should have taken place, and the grapes should be fairly sweet to the taste." Then you remove the stems, crush the grapes and start fermentation. No mention of any campden tabs.
> 
> Has any one ever done this? After a month will the grapes be mush? , which would make de stemming a pain! Any thoughts or ideas??




Here’s a blurb for you: 
“Invented by Michel Flanzy in 1934, carbonic maceration involves placing the intact grape clusters into a closed tank with a carbon dioxide-rich atmosphere. The berries subsequently undergo an intracellular fermentation without yeast intervention. Complex changes occur during this process which entail the transformation of a small amount of sugar into alcohol (1.5–2% alcohol), the reduction of malic acid content by about half, and the generation of secondary products.

Compared with wines produced by conventional techniques, carbonic maceration produces wines of distinctive character of superior quality possessing a harmonious balance. It can be used to generate a wide range of wines (red as well as rosé), to be drunk young or aged.

The process is composed of four steps: vatting of intact berries, “maceration–fermentation,” pumping off, and pressing, followed by a second fermentation phase. Exchanges and interactions occur between grape berries, the gaseous atmosphere, and the must present at the bottom of the tank during the first step of the carbonic maceration winemaking process. Yeast fermentation starts at this stage, in the liquid phase, and continues throughout the second step as well, with the malolactic fermentation.”


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## jgmillr1 (Sep 28, 2019)

I've never done it bc I don't feel I can adequately control the environment for it. But I have attended many how-to seminars where it was discussed.

You need to keep the container full of CO2 ( this is why your recipe book wanted you to crush grapes on the bottom to ferment and produce CO2), warm temperature of 85'F and it let it go for about one week. It is critical to purge the atmosphere of oxygen to prevent vinegar spoilage.

One of the reasons for doing carbonic maceration is that some of the malic acid is metabolized, thus lowering the acidity without MLF which can reduce fruit flavors.


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## Vinobeau (Oct 2, 2019)

I'm going to give it a try! It will only be a gallon or so. I will be making a larger batch with the standard procedure. I'm really surprised that no one has admitted to trying this!!


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## sour_grapes (Oct 3, 2019)

Vinobeau said:


> I'm going to give it a try! It will only be a gallon or so. I will be making a larger batch with the standard procedure. I'm really surprised that no one has admitted to trying this!!



With only a gallon, I'd be concerned that you wouldn't be able to develop the anaerobic atmosphere you need. Maybe use a tall, thin fermenting vessel?


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## Vinobeau (Oct 3, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> With only a gallon, I'd be concerned that you wouldn't be able to develop the anaerobic atmosphere you need. Maybe use a tall, thin fermenting vessel?


Thanks for the heads up! The recipe calls for 7 to 10 pounds of wild grapes per gallon. That is a lot of em. I plan on using a 5 gallon bucket with a snap on lid that should make it air tight.


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## Vinobeau (Oct 3, 2019)

I picked 10 pounds, including the stems; and picked off green and shriveled grapes. Crushed some and added them to the pail, closed the lid and I'm waiting for a month. I'm very interested to see what it all looks, and tastes like then!


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## Vinobeau (Oct 26, 2019)

Well, it worked! I decided to shorten up the process, and I think that it was proper. There were a few grapes that had mold spores on them, under a dozen out of 10 pounds. It was a very messy job removing the grapes from the stems as most of the grapes were rather mushy with the most mushy ones were at the bottom of the pail. The grapes tasted sweeter than any other wild grapes that I've tasted. I am puzzled why the recipe does not call for campden tablets, but I decided to used them because of the mold that was on a few grapes, even tho I threw those away. 

I'm please so far.


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## Vinobeau (Nov 1, 2019)

Racked the wine, sg down to 1.005. It tasted dry but also quite tart - not sure if it was a vinegar tart or not. Decided to try a second run with the grapes. Time will tell what I wind up with!!


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## Cynewulf (Jul 29, 2020)

How did everything go? I’m thinking of trying semi-carbonic maceration with some of my Marquette grapes next year - maybe in a fermonster - and am interested in hearing from folks who have tried it.


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## Vinobeau (Jul 30, 2020)

I made a false run of the Carbonic Maceration wine and it was milder than the first run. At the end of February, I combined both batches for a total of 2 gallons. I added one gallon of the CM to a 4 gallon batch of "Normal" wild grape wine, leaving me one gallon of the CM. I tasted the CM, today, and it isn't quite as tart as it was in October ( just post fermentation). There is a bit of "off" flavor to it, but that may mellow out. If it doesn't after aging, sweetening should do it. I think that my problem is because of the Wild Grapes and their tendancy tohave a very "Foxy taste". I think that it would turn out better using a milder grape, ie Marquette.


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## Adam Beck (Aug 13, 2020)

What we do is wrap the top of a fermenter (with grapes in it) with food grade plastic stretch wrap, then poke a hole in the top, and stick a tube connected to a CO2 tank. Let the CO2 tank go for a bit, put some tape over the hole, and let it sit until we decide to crush (about a week later). At that point foot tread and then do regular punchdowns until it needs to get into a barrel. It's pretty easy.


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## Cynewulf (Aug 13, 2020)

Very cool. Sounds pretty straightforward. I’ve been trying to keep an eye on Craigslist for a CO2 tank, though probably won’t need it until next year. What grapes are you using the process on and how temperature sensitive have you found it? Also, are you pitching yeast into the fermenter to keep the CO2 up?


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## Adam Beck (Aug 13, 2020)

I’m doing Pinot Gris right now but the guy who taught me this way of doing it has done a large amount of varietals this way. No temperature control, but it’s in an air conditioned warehouse, so it stays relatively cool. Didn’t pitch any yeast. I check it every day and if I’m feeling paranoid will peel the tape off of the hole and pump some more CO2 in, but that’s not really necessary.


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## NCWC (Sep 10, 2020)

I'm doing a CM with Itaska. I got a good deal on the grapes 980 lbs. Wanted Pinot Noir but ...
I put them in a 800L tank gassed the top with CO2 and put a bubbler on it.
Been about 10 days and no bubbles. I have it in a cold room 60F may take a month or two


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## Cynewulf (Sep 10, 2020)

Interesting, I didn’t think you would expect bubbles with CM as I didn’t think the enzymes at work produced CO2 in the same way yeast does. Also didn’t think it took more than a week or two since you’re only fermenting a few points Brix before pressing and finishing with yeast. I’m keen to hear how your Itasca turns out. I have several young Itasca vines that should produce a larger crop next year. The handful of experimental clusters I let ripen this year had me excited.


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## Rice_Guy (Sep 10, 2020)

another way to get CO2 is to toss in some dry ice, as it evaporates it will expand and force out the original air, ,,,, if you have the AI1 head space eliminator this would be a good time to put that check valve in your cover to eliminate pressure.


Cynewulf said:


> Very cool. Sounds pretty straightforward. I’ve been trying to keep an eye on Craigslist for a CO2 tank, though probably won’t need it until next year. What grapes are you using the process on and how temperature sensitive have you found it? Also, are you pitching yeast into the fermenter to keep the CO2 up?


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## NCWC (Sep 10, 2020)

Cynewulf said:


> Interesting, I didn’t think you would expect bubbles with CM as I didn’t think the enzymes at work produced CO2 in the same way yeast does. Also didn’t think it took more than a week or two since you’re only fermenting a few points Brix before pressing and finishing with yeast. I’m keen to hear how your Itasca turns out. I have several young Itasca vines that should produce a larger crop next year. The handful of experimental clusters I let ripen this year had me excited.


The grapes at the bottom should start to crush from the weight on top and produce CO2


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## Cynewulf (Sep 10, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> another way to get CO2 is to toss in some dry ice, as it evaporates it will expand and force out the original air, ,,,, if you have the AI1 head space eliminator this would be a good time to put that check valve in your cover to eliminate pressure.



Thanks. Are you able to say about how much dry ice for a given volume of uncrushed grapes? Maybe a 10 or 20 gallon Brute’s worth? Does the dry ice have to be replaced after some period of time?


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## Snafflebit (Sep 10, 2020)

You say that the wine tastes sweeter, but is there actually residual sugar in the wine? And how to handle that when bottling time comes


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## Rice_Guy (Sep 10, 2020)

In the lab doing anaerobic work, we had a sealed chamber with gaskets etc. 
HUMM? ? ,,, P x V = N x R x T ,,, that was 50 years ago 
It should be sold by the pound therefore a pound will fill 8.7 cubic feet or 65 gallons at room temp/ pressure. Assume that you are washing out the air so you should be at a useful percentage, but not 100%. Also assume you will have some evaporate between dealer and hone (and you need an ice chest/ gloves to move it) 
If you keep the cover tight assume it is OK, if you open it you start over again.


Cynewulf said:


> Thanks. Are you able to say about how much dry ice for a given volume of uncrushed grapes? Maybe a 10 or 20 gallon Brute’s worth? Does the dry ice have to be replaced after some period of time?


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## Adam Beck (Sep 11, 2020)

Snafflebit said:


> You say that the wine tastes sweeter, but is there actually residual sugar in the wine? And how to handle that when bottling time comes


No, I think what they mean is the wines are more fruit forward and less tannic, which comes across as sweetness. I prefer the term "juicy". You can let them ferment to dry and they'll still have much more candy-like fruit flavors than a skin extracted wine.


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## NCWC (Oct 18, 2020)

CM update I crushed the grapes after 14 days put in the nutrients as if it was a commercial yeast used. I'm doing wild fermentation.
After another 2 weeks, we pressed it, fermentation finish. Tastes very interesting, very complex nose and has an orange look to it. Will need some back sweetening. Original Brix 25 pH 3.1 now 3.40


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## Cynewulf (Oct 18, 2020)

NCWC said:


> CM update I crushed the grapes after 14 days put in the nutrients as if it was a commercial yeast used. I'm doing wild fermentation.
> After another 2 weeks, we pressed it, fermentation finish. Tastes very interesting, very complex nose and has an orange look to it. Will need some back sweetening. Original Brix 25 pH 3.1 now 3.40


Thanks for the update. CM with white grapes is unusual, though I’ve seen a couple folks on this forum mention they do it. I’m really intrigued to hear how things turn out with the Itasca.


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