# 2nd racking / degassing and bung advice



## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

I'm wondering if it's OK to rack from my carboy into my primary fermentation bucket, which is large and easy to degass in using the whisk I have. Then, rack it back into a carboy after degassing is complete. Will the back and forth cause any issues? I figure there's so much air exposure during the degassing it wouldn't make a difference?

Also, I have about 22L in a 23L carboy and I have more 23L carboys. Thing is I have one sort of an odd carboy that is 19L but the largest bung I have fits sort of loose. I was thinking of wrapping some tape around the bung just to increase the diameter a bit so the fit is more snug. Any thoughts on if it's worth it so that topping up with water isn't needed if I use the 23L? Or is it better to use the 23L again and not worry about the bit of air left in the carboy?Then theoretically I could do the final third racking into the 19L.


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## reeflections (May 24, 2020)

I'm sure you'll get a better answer cuz I don't know what I'm talking about, but it seems to me that using a whip with a wide open top would be adding oxygen as much as it would be removing CO2. 

Have you looked into the All In One pump?


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## salcoco (May 24, 2020)

degassing in the open bucket will be okay. just use the whisk for only about two minutes. your idea to put wine in 19l will work along with the tape idea. m ake sure you still use a airlock as the wine will be degassing itself.


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I'm sure you'll get a better answer cuz I don't know what I'm talking about, but it seems to me that using a whip with a wide open top would be adding oxygen as much as it would be removing CO2.
> 
> Have you looked into the All In One pump?



I have not looked into that pump.


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

salcoco said:


> degassing in the open bucket will be okay. just use the whisk for only about two minutes. your idea to put wine in 19l will work along with the tape idea. m ake sure you still use a airlock as the wine will be degassing itself.


OK thanks, I was more worried that essentially doing two racks would be problematic. Do you think it's preferable to go now from 23L to 19L instead of going into 23L now and saving the 19L for the final racking? Since I only have the one 19L.


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## reeflections (May 24, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> I have not looked into that pump.



check out this thread:





__





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## Chuck E (May 24, 2020)

@purpletongue 

You can "top off" your 23L carboy with a similar wine. For long term bulk aging your goal is to minimize exposure to oxygen. There is a lot of oxygen when you have a large head space in your carboy.


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## sour_grapes (May 24, 2020)

I agree with Chuck. Why not top off with another wine? You get to drink that wine later!

And racking to a bucket to degas is a common practice, and is fine.


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> @purpletongue
> 
> You can "top off" your 23L carboy with a similar wine. For long term bulk aging your goal is to minimize exposure to oxygen. There is a lot of oxygen when you have a large head space in your carboy.


I think I read a thread on here where someone had a similar question about topping up and wanting to keep the cost down. Someone replied that some quick wine kits don't specify it's needed anymore? I guess this is under the assumption you'll drink the batch within 6 months or so?


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I agree with Chuck. Why not top off with another wine? You get to drink that wine later!
> 
> And racking to a bucket to degas is a common practice, and is fine.


I guess it's the frugal side of me. To keep the costs down and I guess I like the idea that the wine is 100% what I made and nothing else was introduced commercial. But you make a good point it's all going to the same place.

Thanks, I wasn't sure about that. Thanks for confirming. How long would you recommend I stir it with a big whisk? 2 min as suggested? I also realized my smaller carboy is 20L not 19L.


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## Chuck E (May 24, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> I guess it's the frugal side of me. To keep the costs down and I guess I like the idea that the wine is 100% what I made and nothing else was introduced commercial. But you make a good point it's all going to the same place.
> 
> Thanks, I wasn't sure about that. Thanks for confirming. How long would you recommend I stir it with a big whisk? 2 min as suggested? I also realized my smaller carboy is 20L not 19L.



If you are adding a liter to top off, that's less than 5% somebody else's wine. It's unlikely to make a big difference. 

Do you have anything you made to be the top-off wine? I have enough of mine now, to do that, but if you are just starting out, that's unavailable. 

Once my wine goes into carboy or barrels, I don't stir. I do have the All-In-One pump, so I get some de-gassing with every transfer, but I prefer to let time "do its thing."


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> If you are adding a liter to top off, that's less than 5% somebody else's wine. It's unlikely to make a big difference.
> 
> Do you have anything you made to be the top-off wine? I have enough of mine now, to do that, but if you are just starting out, that's unavailable.
> 
> Once my wine goes into carboy or barrels, I don't stir. I do have the All-In-One pump, so I get some de-gassing with every transfer, but I prefer to let time "do its thing."


That's true not a big difference. Mostly a purist thing I guess.

I don't yet. This is my first batch but I'll be sure to try to keep some aside for the topping up now.


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## Digital-monk (May 24, 2020)

Using a bucket to degass is a great idea. Avoids many volcanos if you do it in a carboy. You want to wipe until you don’t get more bubbles surfacing. Some wines that were in primary longer hardly need more than 2 mins, but others I have done for 25+ mins. I also think that altitude must have some impact on how readily the CO2 comes out.


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

Digital-monk said:


> Using a bucket to degass is a great idea. Avoids many volcanos if you do it in a carboy. You want to wipe until you don’t get more bubbles surfacing. Some wines that were in primary longer hardly need more than 2 mins, but others I have done for 25+ mins. I also think that altitude must have some impact on how readily the CO2 comes out.


Thanks for the advice. Wow 25min! I can see why they sell the attachment for a drill then. I wonder if I should try to make something so my drill/driver can attach to my whisk. Was thinking about it but didn't know if it's necessary (it's a pretty big whisk). Right now there are very little bubbles in the carboy, burping has slowed down considerably and there's no bubbles in the glass while tasting or detectable on the pallete when tasting. That said, I've been told on the forum, even still, the C02 is in there.


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## purpletongue (May 24, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> Once my wine goes into carboy or barrels, I don't stir. I do have the All-In-One pump, so I get some de-gassing with every transfer, but I prefer to let time "do its thing."


This is interesting, so you just depend on the pump? In my book I don't think it suggests degassing either, it just has you splashing around the wine for the first couple racks.


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2020)

There is a product called silicone tape at HomeDepot/ hardware store which will provide a tight seal/ stretch and seal to itself and not leak gas. Normal electrical and scotch won’t deform enough to seal.
. 



purpletongue said:


> . . . . 19L but the largest bung I have fits sort of loose. I was thinking of wrapping some tape around the bung just to increase the diameter a bit so the fit is more snug. . . .


You are touching on one of my home winemaking gripes, Why isn’t there a 25 liter variable capacity tank? Everyone needs to minimize head space.


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## purpletongue (May 25, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> There is a product called silicone tape at HomeDepot/ hardware store which will provide a tight seal/ stretch and seal to itself and not leak gas. Normal electrical and scotch won’t deform enough to seal.
> . View attachment 61600
> 
> 
> You are touching on one of my home winemaking gripes, Why isn’t there a 25 liter variable capacity tank? Everyone needs to minimize head space.



Thanks for the tip! Do you think plumbers tape would work? I have some of that on hand.

Didn't know variable capacity was a thing. Just googled it and that's neat. You're right that'd be a great product. I've read of people adding sanitized marbles too.


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> Do you think plumbers tape would work? I have some of that on hand.
> 
> Didn't know variable capacity was a thing. Just googled it and that's neat. You're right that'd be a great product. I've read of people adding sanitized marbles too.


Teflon tape has lower adhesion than vinyl electrical tape. If the stores aren’t open on a holiday, electrical is second best, in which case actively stretch it so it tries to shrink back on itself.
Another choice is to “float” a food grade bag/ tube of water in the carboy. Have been tempted to heat seal a zip lock into tubes, but haven’t thought through how to remove em. Large stainless variable exist. High barrier wine bags may be an actual fix for home scale variable capacity.


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## jpwatkins9 (May 25, 2020)

If you don’t want to top up, just get a can of wine preserve inert gas (Argon, CO2, and Nitrogen) and put some in the carboy Headspace. Also add some K meta to scavenge the O2. The wine will also outgas some additional CO2 so no real problems. I do this when racking or bulk aging in my 23 liter carboy.


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## reeflections (May 25, 2020)

I have 2 questions:

If we stir the primary to introduce oxygen, why doesn't stirring the wine later to degas not introduce oxygen?

How about these headspace eliminators instead of topping up? Obviously you would need some sort of vacuum pump to use them but they are never mentioned when this topic comes up.


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## Johnd (May 25, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I have 2 questions:
> 
> If we stir the primary to introduce oxygen, why doesn't stirring the wine later to degas not introduce oxygen?
> 
> ...



Stirring your wine does expose it to oxygen, we count on lots of CO2 being emitted during degassing to help protect it. Also, the sulfite that you have added, or will add shortly after degassing, will scavenge the oxygen out of the wine and protect it from oxidation.

Some folks use the headspace eliminator instead of topping up or selecting properly sized vessels, and report good results. Personally, I find that it's much easier to just rack down or top up and keep the carboys full, it's not like you're wasting any wine, you still will get to drink it.....................


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## mc7315 (May 25, 2020)

I also let time do the degassing for me. I have an all-in-one wine pump and it has been a lifesaver for me. I bought mine around 6 years ago and I can sincerely say I would not be making wine today if I did not own one - in only for the reduced efforts in bottling. With the all-in-one pump, I feel I am degassing with each racking and all of the ways through to bottling!


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## reeflections (May 25, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Stirring your wine does expose it to oxygen, we count on lots of CO2 being emitted during degassing to help protect it. Also, the sulfite that you have added, or will add shortly after degassing, will scavenge the oxygen out of the wine and protect it from oxidation.
> 
> Some folks use the headspace eliminator instead of topping up or selecting properly sized vessels, and report good results. Personally, I find that it's much easier to just rack down or top up and keep the carboys full, it's not like you're wasting any wine, you still will get to drink it.....................



Thanks for the response. I have been using the AIO also I haven't had to degas by hand, I was just curious.

When I got the AIO pump, I also bought a few of the Headspace Eliminators since I don't have that many different size carboys and the topping up would often need as much as a gallon in a 5 gal carboy. I don't worry about wasting other wine, just changing the flavor. I guess after I have been doing this longer, I will have more of the same kind of wine for topping, but at this point I am still experimenting to see what I like best. 

I can't report on results of using the Headspace Eliminators because I have nothing to compare them to, but with the pump right there, they sure are easier than any other methods I've seen.


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## Ajmassa (May 25, 2020)

reeflections said:


> I have 2 questions:
> 
> If we stir the primary to introduce oxygen, why doesn't stirring the wine later to degas not introduce oxygen?
> 
> ...



headspace eliminators with the one way valves are awesome. I don’t like them for long term. But perfect for a short term fix. Also before them I used the wine saver hand pump tool Vacuvin. The rubber piece that’s meant for the bottle opening fit around that nipple inside a universal carboy bung. then can use to degas and remove headspace o2 in a carboy. Doesn’t last tho. just repump every couple days.


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## Ajmassa (May 25, 2020)

I see @Johnd already answered this in a nice easily understood direct response. But I had typed this out so posting anyway  

@reeflections you can’t really introduce o2 with co2 present . When degassing once co2 is gone you’ll see the foamy fizz turn to larger o2 bubbles. that’s when ya stop otherwise you _will_ introduce o2. This is why I don’t degas manually and allow it to disipate over time. A byproduct of Co2 is That’s it’s body armor for o2. And O2 exposure binds up existing sulphites in the wine. Once enough sulphite is bound up the o2 exposure would start to oxidize the wine. So Maintaining proper sulphite (so2) prevents this. Removing headspace slows the rate the so2 becomes bound b/c prolonged o2 exposure is a killer. 

So to break it down
-sulphites protect the wine from all
-co2 protects against o2 exposure 
-O2 exposure binds up sulphites
- Low sulphites allow o2 exposure to oxidize wine & be more susceptible to bacteria. 

Proper sulphite levels are key. But also good sanitation practices, headspace removal, temperature, the abv, acid levels, and co2 can all affect the rate sulphite levels drop.


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## purpletongue (Jun 4, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Teflon tape has lower adhesion than vinyl electrical tape. If the stores aren’t open on a holiday, electrical is second best, in which case actively stretch it so it tries to shrink back on itself.
> Another choice is to “float” a food grade bag/ tube of water in the carboy. Have been tempted to heat seal a zip lock into tubes, but haven’t thought through how to remove em. Large stainless variable exist. High barrier wine bags may be an actual fix for home scale variable capacity.



So I used the electrical which seems to work OK. However, it seems to be falling off a bit and I'm worried about any of the adhesive tainting the wine. I think I may replace it with plastic wrap for now and then try to get my hands on a very large bung.

I may have to find a way to fill the headspace for the final rack as you suggest. As I'll likely have to rack up to a 23L unfortunately.


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## purpletongue (Jun 4, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> headspace eliminators with the one way valves are awesome. I don’t like them for long term. But perfect for a short term fix. Also before them I used the wine saver hand pump tool Vacuvin. The rubber piece that’s meant for the bottle opening fit around that nipple inside a universal carboy bung. then can use to degas and remove headspace o2 in a carboy. Doesn’t last tho. just repump every couple days.


I can buy a 18.9L carboy for $20 used for my final racking. Or I can buy a can of inert gas to use with my 23L carboys for $30. Any suggestions?


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 4, 2020)

purpletongue said:


> I can buy a 18.9L carboy for $20 used for my final racking. Or I can buy a can of inert gas to use with my 23L carboys for $30. Any suggestions?


The general experience with gas is that it is a short term, couple of weeks fix. You will find that we sometimes visit others and say too much head space, well normally the wine is drinkable with slight oxidation.
i would get the extra carboy and I would look at a 3 liter liter bag in box for extra wine. (see “who uses wine bag?” or “leftover wine after racking” thread). Eventually everyone wants more containers.
.
A 16 oz zip lock bag(s) filled/ sealed with water would last longer than gas.


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## purpletongue (Jun 4, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> A 16 oz zip lock bag(s) filled/ sealed with water would last longer than gas.


How do you get that through the small mouth of the carboy?


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## purpletongue (Jun 4, 2020)

Good news, I got a #12 stopper at a nearby supply and it fits perfect. So that's good. I also asked the winemaker there and he said the kits he sells and most of them are actually formulated to be topped off with water during racking for a final 23L and the amount you top off with won't really dilute it noticeably. Not sure I agree as a newbie but I must say he was surrounded by almost a hundred carboys in various stages. Just food for thought.


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## dswendell (Jun 18, 2020)

Do you all think the 200-300$ is worth it for a pump? I’ve always been curious, never pulled the trigger. I’m a 1 kit a year guy. Maybe two.

I’m sure a big help is just the bottling and racking convenience, I don’t really mind lifting the carboys up though.


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 19, 2020)

Your question is “how much joy do I get out of toys?” The RICE out of rice-guy spent a few decades in a pilot plant creating toys so it was easy to justify by now 3 vacuum pumps ($20 each) and 2 peristaltic pumps (less than $50) and a BonVino with a centrifugal pump.


dswendell said:


> Do you all think the 200-300$ is worth it for a pump? . . . . . I’m a 1 kit a year guy. Maybe two.


The cost effective answer is make more wine to amortize the toys.


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## Padrino (Jun 19, 2020)

If you only do one batch a season, I'd stay with siphoning from the carboy. To spent that kind of money, unless you want a new toy, then go for it. are you in a group or know's someone to let you use there's and exchange a bottle. Cheers.


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 19, 2020)

I should second @Padrino ,,, in this part of the Midwest I am part of two Vinters clubs and we have other clubs within 3 to 4 hours. They are a good way to try out equipment and in the case of my BonVino buy the used tool rather than getting new.


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## DizzyIzzy (Jun 20, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> I should second @Padrino ,,, in this part of the Midwest I am part of two Vinters clubs and we have other clubs within 3 to 4 hours. They are a good way to try out equipment and in the case of my BonVino buy the used tool rather than getting new.


RiceGuy...............where in the midwest are you located? I live in Knox county, Ohio...............................Dizzy


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## vacuumpumpman (Jun 21, 2020)

dswendell said:


> Do you all think the 200-300$ is worth it for a pump? I’ve always been curious, never pulled the trigger. I’m a 1 kit a year guy. Maybe two.
> 
> I’m sure a big help is just the bottling and racking convenience, I don’t really mind lifting the carboys up though.


Remember if you have any questions or concerns - feel free to PM me directly- The right tool for the right job - makes the job alot more enjoyable to accomplish.


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## GaDawg (Jun 27, 2020)

reeflections said:


> How about these headspace eliminators instead of topping up? Obviously you would need some sort of vacuum pump to use them but they are never mentioned when this topic comes up.
> View attachment 61605


I use my headspace eliminator all the time and I have never had a problem. Love that thing!


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## GaDawg (Jun 27, 2020)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Remember if you have any questions or concerns - feel free to PM me directly- The right tool for the right job - makes the job alot more enjoyable to accomplish.


Steve, I had a bicycle accident and I no longer have a left rotator cuff, and I’m almost 73. Without you vacuum pump I would not be able to make wine.


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## robert81650 (Jun 27, 2020)

I agree.............the vacuum pump from Steve is the best thing I ever bought in wine making............


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## KCCam (Jun 28, 2020)

Yes, me too. Almost as important as a carboy! If you make your own wine even partly to save money from buying inferior commercial wine, then what you save in one or two batches will pay for the pump. I’ve only completed 2 batches since I got mine, and almost finished 3 more. I will never do wine again without one. My back thanks me.


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## KCCam (Jun 28, 2020)

Padrino said:


> To spent that kind of money, unless you want a new toy, then go for it.


@dswendell - IMHO, Padrino should have said "To spend that kind of money, unless you want a new *TOOL*, then go for it." The AIO is definitely not a toy. Do you have a hand corker or a floor corker? I wouldn't consider a floor corker a toy either. They're both just more expensive tools to make your hobby more enjoyable. If you can afford the tool, you will not regret it. If my floor corker broke, I don't think I would do a single batch with a hand corker, much less 2 or 3. Same goes for my vacuum pump.
My opinion, of course.


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## purpletongue (Jul 7, 2020)

Did my first bottling with a hand corker just a couple days ago. Worked surprisingly well. Wasn't particularly ergonomic kneeling on the floor, but if you had a good setup with the right table height, I think the hand corker can work pretty good.


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## Jal5 (Jul 11, 2020)

I used a hand corker for several years. Even made a wooden jig to hold bottle on a table while corking. But when I bought a used floor corker WOW. What a difference! So much easier, faster and no spills.


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## KCCam (Jul 11, 2020)

Jal5 said:


> So much easier, faster and no spills.


My point exactly. A vacuum pump is the same. Not an expensive toy, but a tool that makes everything so much easier, faster and no spills. You can certainly do without it, as most do, but once you can afford one, wine-making becomes even more enjoyable.


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## Old Corker (Jul 11, 2020)

After the basic fermenters, carboys and various tubing my first tool purchase was the floor corker. With my 64 year old hands it was a necessity. Next was a buon vino bottle filler my wife found on used eBay for cheap. Then a couple of months ago the All in One pump. I probably wouldn’t have bought the Buon Vino unit if I’d bought the AIO first but my wife likes it and we enjoy doing the bottling together. She fills, I cork, we both drink. As said above, if you do the math they have paid for themselves. They definitely make the process more enjoyable. IMHO.


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