# Ever think of opening your own vinyard?



## rshosted (Jan 21, 2006)

I was at dinner with my brother and his wife yesterday. They were talking about moving closer to the coast and buying some land (25 acres) and building a house. They know how much I love to make wine and my brother suggested giving me half the land to start a winery....

I thought he was joking at first, but I think there is a possibility of doing it. I'm just curious, we have so many people who love to make wine... do many people ever leave the life they have to go try this?

Anyone know what type of Acre would be needed to produce a commercial winery? 


*Edited by: rshosted *


----------



## Angell Wine (Jan 21, 2006)

Yes I Have. Working on the materials and soil test this spring if we get any rain fall. I'm starting with 1 acre. 18 acres is good sizevineyard and any thing over that you will hiring help in the off season, pruning, spraying etc.. Look to invest six thousand dollars per acre over the next 8 years with returns coming in 6- 8 years with a harvest rate at 50 - 60 %. 


 [url]http://www.agr.state.tx.us/picktexas/prodcr/grapes/wg_factor .htm[/url]


*Edited by: Angell Wine *


----------



## jobe05 (Jan 21, 2006)

Angell Wine said:


> Look to invest six thousand dollars per acre over the next 8 years with returns coming in 6- 8




Angell:


Can you give us a quick run down of what the $6K per acre buys. In a larger vineyard (not really a winery), could one use cuttings to propogate and acre or two cutting costs? Thanks


----------



## Angell Wine (Jan 21, 2006)

I was looking at planting Blanc du Bois variety of grapes because of their tolerance to Pierce's Disease which runs rampant in east Texas. 1 year old vines run $3.00 per vine. With vine spacing at 7 ft and row spacing at 8 ft, that would be a total of 800 vines per acre. Total cost would be just for vines $2400.00, but you have the same idea as I had, propagate existing vines.


The other big cost is the trellis system. This is where you do not want to save on money because you want it to last as long as possible. 50 to 75 years is the normal vine life span.


irrigation systems if you live in a dry region is another consideration that cost.


Here is a run down from a web site : http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/costestimate.html*Edited by: Angell Wine *


----------



## Angell Wine (Jan 22, 2006)

Here's another web sitettp://www.agr.state.tx.us/wine/docs/planning.htm *Edited by: Angell Wine *


----------



## Steve (Jan 22, 2006)

My father has a few acres planted and is planting more every year until he get a total of 6 acres. My grandfather is going to sell his place right next door, 27 acres, my wife and I are thinking about buying it and planting there. Time will tell, big leap to make from home winemaking to commercial...


----------



## jobe05 (Jan 22, 2006)

Thanks Angel &amp; Steve


I would love to do a small vineyard of various grape varieties, going commercial????? I think that would be to much for me. Yourcost per acre really intrigued me though, as much as I would like to do it, I guess I never put a dollar per acre to it.$6K per acre isn't bad concidering my dream would be 5 or 6 acres over a period of time, getting most of the plantings from propogation. Any idea on the yeild of a plant that has been propogated versus root stock?*Edited by: jobe05 *


----------



## Angell Wine (Jan 22, 2006)

Should be the samesince every plant been propagate at one time or another.


----------



## Maui Joe (Jan 23, 2006)

This might be of interest for someone...Small Vineyard Instructional Videos! A ad in Wine Maker Magazine.


www.vineguyproductions.com


----------



## pkcook (Jan 24, 2006)

My sister and brother-in-law put in 15 acres in various grapes a few years ago. Kentuckypurchased most ofthe plantstrying tokeep people from planting tobacco; that helped. They both have fulltime jobs, and haven't taken the plung with the commercial winery part, but are able to sell all their grapes to a winery just up the road. If you have the capital to start the winery, you will see much more return on your investment than by selling the grapes, that much I can tell you. The positive thing in planting and selling your grapes is when you start your winery, you will hopefully have established healthy plants. They are up to 35 acres now and require help in the summer to prune and weed. I had mentioned to them my desire to purchase some land and put in some grapes. They gave me one word of advice, "Birds are a vineyards enemy!" Last year they lost over half the crop to birds. They did not invest in the cannons that the other wineries use, but will have them for this year's crop.


Good luck.


----------



## rshosted (Jan 26, 2006)

That is awesome... I am green with envy of your sister and bro-in-law. 

I was thinking of moving, getting the land, and starting some grapes that I have. Then spending the next few years propogating them into the land. Finish the last years of a career, then retire (around 45) and finish my hobby with a commercial winery. 

So, tell me. Explain cannons. How do they work? How often? I've never heard of them. I assumed wineries would use netting to keep the birds out...???


----------



## pkcook (Jan 27, 2006)

Cannons fire a very loud shot that scares the birds out of the vines. I've never seen one, but I believe they are air driven, but they work! Lover's Leap winery next door to my sister's place use them and they had a bumper crop last year. 


Lover's Leap winery built a store front at the winery. There is something about driving to the vineyard to buy your wine. They also offer festivals with music and dinner at the vineyard. They have held their own for about 10 years now. Not sure if my sister will ever take the plung in building a winery. Time will tell.


----------



## MedPretzel (Jan 27, 2006)

I'm not trying to be a downer or anything, but.....


Anything more than 5 acres cannot be done alone, in my opinion. I don't have any vineyard experience, but my sister owns a working farm -- 17 acres, 1 very strong woman. It's a horsefarm, but it still needs mowing, weeding, management, etc. It sounds easier than it actually is. Just be cautious.


If you have anything over 5 acres, I imagine you would need hired help for picking or a machine that does it. Somehow it's hard for me to imagine that your sister and her husband could do all that by hand. Or did they have a machine? You will need to weed it it all. The up-side is that in the winter, you won't have much to worry about. Maybe covering your vines so that the frost doesn't get to them that much.


You will also have to build facilities for your place with plenty of space and room for expansion. And zoning. My sister had somewhat of a run-inrecently with zoning, because of the neighbors (who live 10 acres away, roughly) complaining that they didn't like the sound of horses. (the zoning committe laughed at them). Darn city slickers who move out to the country!




You have to get involved with the ATF years in advance, and you have to make sure the agricultural department will allow that on that property. If the land is bare, and you want your winery on premise of the land, septic system, etc, etc is also needed. 


But I digress... 


Think about it, crunch numbers and like every good business: work out a worst case scenario, a best case scenario and plant the vines on the land now.



They'll be producing 3 years from now. 


I envy all of you.




*Edited by: MedPretzel *


----------



## Angell Wine (Jan 27, 2006)

I never heard of a vine jumping out of a fence or a vine making noises. I've been in two law suites because of cattle. That's what started me down the road of having a vineyard. Just a trade off of work I figure. Pick up 20 vines today, couldn't help myself. 10 Bois Du Blanc, 10 black Spanish.*Edited by: Angell Wine *


----------



## PolishWineP (Jan 27, 2006)

Yeah, you have to watch out for those rogue vines! They'll sneak out a hole in the fence and create all kinds of havoc!






About a month ago a herd of buffalo left their enclosure and caused some problems. They played round-up for a few days and eventually the rest wandered back home. Guess the food was better there! And from what I understand about farming and ranching,I think the grapes smell better than the cattle!


----------



## MedPretzel (Jan 27, 2006)

Angell Wine said:


> I never heard of a vine jumping out of a fence or a vine making noises. I've been in two law suites because of cattle. That's what started me down the road of having a vineyard. Just a trade off of work I figure. Pick up 20 vines today, couldn't help myself. 10 Bois Du Blanc, 10 black Spanish.







Sorry. I meant no harm



, but just a word of caution to more of the physical labor part. But it sounds like you are used to that.





Good luck, those vines sound very yummy!


----------



## masta (Jan 27, 2006)

Well I took the plunge today and ordered some grape vines. I have been thinking about it for a while and decided it was time to get some started.


Ordered 6 Cabernet Franc which are grafted to hardy northern root stock. Also ordered 6 Concord seedless grape vines for eating and making jelly!


----------



## Angell Wine (Jan 27, 2006)

Welcome to the club Masta, maybe need to start a new section or thread on small vineyards.


No Harm taking Martina, I'm glad you brought it up. I'm one of those people who can see everything that will go wrong with something. I still had my reservation about starting one but try to learn something about everyday.Have the major equipment to do it with, it's the time factor that's got me right now. The two things that scare a business owner is Failure &amp; Success.


----------



## masta (Jan 27, 2006)

Done...


 [url]http://www.finevinewines.com/Wiz/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1 180&amp;PN=1&amp;TPN=1[/url]


----------



## pkcook (Jan 27, 2006)

Martina,


You are correct with the amount of labor required with grapes. My brother-in-law has three grown boys living at home and between the four of them, they still have to hire help in the summer. Harvesting is usually a family/friends affair, with my Dadand my sister's friends helping, it goes pretty quick, so no paid labor for picking. 


One helpful note is mostgrapes breedsmature at different times, so you don't usually pick the whole vineyard at once, just one variety. You check your Brix with a refractometer daily until they are optimum and pray that it isn't raining, and the winery can process them (with your own winery, this would be an issue). I would love to give it a go, but haven't convinced myself that I could be successful. A few fines for home use will likely be as far as I ever go.


----------



## rshosted (Jan 28, 2006)

I'm sure there are a lot of things going on with a winery that people (especially me) don't know. Though, as I have found with any business. You never find something where you get to sit back and let the money roll in, it is a bunch of work. I wonder what type of return you get on a winery. I would imagine that if you actually made the grapes into wine you wouldn't get but a small (20-15%) return, after paying for real estate, equipment, chemicals, bottles, shipping, advertising, occasional employee, taxes, permits, insurance, barrels, racks, cannons




. 

But you know what. I don't make that much money in what I'm doing now... and then I could have more wine around me.  

I think it would be a dream to wake up and get to go out and trim vines, check sugars and acids, spray, and run around with a scare crow outfit on to scare away the birds (heck I do that now, and I don't have but six plants in the ground)


----------



## pkcook (Jan 28, 2006)

When your work is your passion, it hardly seems like work at all! To make money at doing what you love is something many, if not most, of usnever get the opportunity to do. If you think you could do it and survive, I say go for it. Not sure of the legal red tape you would have to go thru in Ut, but explore the local wineries and talk with the owners and get some advice from them.


----------



## rshosted (Jan 28, 2006)

Yeah, if this turns into something I'll be moving to Oregon. We don't have a growing season for 'commercial' good vines here. We do have a few that grow in Utah, but they order in grapes to add to thier wine. I'm thinking Oregon maybe. But I'll have a few years to prepare a good business plan before I do take a step like that. now I'm just experimenting with some vines in my backyard.


----------



## OilnH2O (Feb 5, 2006)

We've enjoyed this discussion



(bravo to all!)-- and thought I'd suggest a book entitled "A Very Good Year, The Journey of a California Wine from vine to Table" by Mike Weiss. I got it at the local library.


While this is a commercial winery that's featured (Ferrari-Cararo) it goes through the whole bit and is an interesting account of all the steps in the process at aMID-size Sonoma countywinery. For those of you who are thinking of going commercial, this might have some ideas about all the ins and outs, including worrying about bugs, birds, and trying to pick at the EXACT right time. While the author sometimes gets sidetracked with the people involved (their problems, foibles, and even following some migrant workers to Mexico), it's enjoyable just to see what goes into the growing, vinting, aging, marketing, dealing with tourists and tasting rooms, distributors, etc. 


My favorite quote about owning a vineyard and winery was that "...it takes a big fortune to make a small fortune!"


----------

