# High Quality vs Low Quality Wine



## southlake333 (Jul 24, 2012)

As someone that loves drinking cheap grocery store wine, making Skeeter Pee and fermenting frozen juice concentrate, I obviously understand very little about what makes a wine "good" or of "high quality". To me, if it tastes good, its good.

So I'm really curious as to what makes a wine "good", "high quality", "worth bragging about", etc. Obviously there are critics who's job is review wines and they must have some criteria they follow. Also there are lots of different styles of wines using different grapes from different areas around the world that go into the review but to me they are just "red flavor 1, red flavor 2, sweet red, red that puckered my butt cheeks, etc". In my mind its still just about taste. 

I guess this also begs the question, what must I do to make an award winning wine? Press my own grapes, add dandelion and other unusual flavors for complexity, ferment at a constant 60%, age in oak barrels for 2 years, then add a complex looking label? Or just pop open some concentrates, set a bucket in the kitchen, add yeast, then sweeten when done?

Just a random thought I had that I figured I would pose to the masses.


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## robie (Jul 24, 2012)

What is a "good" wine can be very subjective of course - a matter of personal opinion.

However, there are "generalized opinions of the masses" where many agree concerning what tastes good. Like - many people enjoy Cab/Sav wine but fewer like wine made from Welches grape juice concentrate. Neither opinion is wrong.

To make an award winning wine, one has to take under consideration the opinion of the judges, who are going to taste and rate the wine. Regardless of your own opinion, it is not going to win an award if they don't like it. 

To come up with such a wine, I suppose one has to think and taste in a more generalized manner. (What would the wine judges think of my wine?) I would look for award-winning recipes of the types of wines you enjoy making. Make these, then look for ways to improve the recipes - in a manner pleasing to potential judges of course.

Take a similar approach for kit wines. I would go to Wine Maker Magazine and see what kits did well in the last contest they had.


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## winemaker_3352 (Jul 24, 2012)

First off let me say - If you like the wine you make - stay with it. That is all that really matters in the end.

You can send the same bottle of wine to 2 different competitions and get totally different results depending on the judges.

There are a lot of things we can't do as homewinemakers that big commerial wineries can do.

Some things that we can do that I have noticed that definitely help the flavor and aromas are:

Cold soaking grapes prior to fermentation (maceration)
Cold Fermentation (Whites and fruits only)
Constant temps during aging
Bulk aging with a little oak
Keeping your sugar and acids in line with what type of wine you are making
Keep the ABV reasonable - to high will mask any and most all flavors and aromas
Time


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## DoctorCAD (Jul 24, 2012)

First, forget sweetening. No good wine is sweet (IMO). The drier the better.

Second, red's only. No good wine is white (IMO). The darker the better.

Third, Low alcohol. No good wine is hot (IMO). The milder the better.

See, there CAN't be a "better" wine because we all want something different. I detest muscidine, but lots of people love it. Can there be a high-quality muscidine? Not to me, but surly there is one somewhere.

Make what you like and share it with friends. If they like it, there you go...a high quality wine!


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## Dugger (Jul 24, 2012)

As has been said, determining "good" wine is quite subjective. 
For me it has also changed over the years. The first wines I made were smaller kits and sweetened with conditioner and I thought they were great. I tasted some good quality wine also at that time but didn't like the taste at all. Over the years my tastes have changed and I can only satisfy that now with the bigger kits that give you more taste and more body. The body becomes more important to me and I suppose it's like starting with a milkshake that is thin but tastes good and then you have one that tastes about the same but is thicker and smoother and then you're hooked.
The professional tasters probably look for the proper balance of sugars, tannins and acids which results in a quality wine and that is what grape wine makers strive for; I stick mostly to kits so that part is already done but it's still the quality (and thus price) of the ingredients that make the difference.
It still comes down to personal preference but I would expect most people's choices change over time.


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## Runningwolf (Jul 24, 2012)

I think this is always a very interesting topic. I agree with all the posts, it's what you, your spouse and friends all like. Another twist to this is what constitutes the very high price we pay for some of this wine. I understand some wine is more labor intensive then others and they are stored for long periods in barrels but does it still justify the price?

Take Two Buck Chuck for instance that now sells for about three bucks. A well liked wine. What if this wine had a different label and was properly marketed, what do you think it could sell for. Look at the other wines it has competed against and placed higher in awards.


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## JohnT (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree with all of these posts. 

It is a matter of tastes. 

For example, I had someone taste one of my award winners and they almost choked. They were used to rather sweet wines and the one I gave them was bone dry. 

Some like concord grapes (no surprise that I am bringing this up!). Some do not (could say something here). Opinions of wine are like grains of sand. There are so many of them. Are they right? Are they wrong? Well, it all depends on who is doin da sippin. 

That said, if you are looking to make wine that holds up well in competitions, then that is a different story. There are certian characteristics that most UC Davis judges look for. This does change within the varieties. If this is what you are after, then I suggest that you turn to the better comercial wineries and start tasting them. Get in your mind what the differences are between your wine ant theirs, then adjust your process accordingly.


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jul 25, 2012)

The best wine in the world is the one you like the best!


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## southlake333 (Jul 25, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Another twist to this is what constitutes the very high price we pay for some of this wine. I understand some wine is more labor intensive then others and they are stored for long periods in barrels but does it still justify the price?



That is a very good question and part of what I was wondering. I always assumed the high price meant something special was done to the wine. But maybe its more supply/demand. Hmm...does that mean if I make a limited 30 bottle supply they should be worth $1000 each??


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## Noontime (Jul 25, 2012)

Interesting question...I would say the criteria that makes a good wine are 1)balance- the acid, sugar, tannin, alcohol, oak, etc should all be appropriate with no one thing going way overboard, 2) no faults- brett, vinegar, gassy, cloudy, etc 3) fidelity- should taste like the grape, fruit, etc (merlot should taste like merlot, and a peach wine that tastes like pumpkin pie might be delicious, but would appear to be just a happy accident). Everything is subjective though, so even the before mentioned criteria and all other qualities are open to personal interpretation.

As far as competitions...what I've heard is, if you enter enough wines in enough competitions, you'll eventually win something. I think this illustrates what others have said about it just has to appeal to the individual judges tastes.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 25, 2012)

I can't resist, I tried not commenting but to no avail. The original question was what makes a great wine. Now we can hide behind the reasoning that whatever you like is great. If so there is no need to discuss this further. But as winemakers who want to make better wine or great wine then the discussion has to go beyond this. So I guess you have to decide whether you really want to have that conversation or not. I surely know how I have made better wine since I started and people who drink my wine agree. Southlake333 asks was something special done to the wine? Let's start with the grapes. 
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 25, 2012)

Noontime said:


> Interesting question...I would say the criteria that makes a good wine are 1)balance- the acid, sugar, tannin, alcohol, oak, etc should all be appropriate with no one thing going way overboard, 2) no faults- brett, vinegar, gassy, cloudy, etc 3) fidelity- should taste like the grape, fruit, etc (merlot should taste like merlot, and a peach wine that tastes like pumpkin pie might be delicious, but would appear to be just a happy accident). Everything is subjective though, so even the before mentioned criteria and all other qualities are open to personal interpretation.
> 
> As far as competitions...what I've heard is, if you enter enough wines in enough competitions, you'll eventually win something. I think this illustrates what others have said about it just has to appeal to the individual judges tastes.


 
a couple of things... 

1) where are you in DelRay Beach? We have a place on South Ocean Blvd.

2) you are right on competitions. I have seen some that prefer what I call "country wines" and I have seen those that are more of the european tradition. In fact, I have seen a skeeter pee take "best in show" in one competition. Still, if your wine has significant flaws, I doubt that it will ever win a medal in any competition.


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## robie (Jul 25, 2012)

southlake333 said:


> That is a very good question and part of what I was wondering. I always assumed the high price meant something special was done to the wine. But maybe its more supply/demand. Hmm...does that mean if I make a limited 30 bottle supply they should be worth $1000 each??



Like trying to justify the price of some of the French Bordeaux and Burgundian wines. They are good, but not THAT good. What's in a name?

Consider the 1976 Paris wine competition between American and French wines. IMO, the judges were more interested in identifying the French wines, so they could rate them higher. They couldn't tell which was French. so they resorted to determining which wines were the better wines, taste, color, and aroma-wise. Surely these would be the French wines... WRONG!!! Stage's Leap won in the red Bordeaux (Cab/Sav) and Chateau Montelena won in the chardonnays.

Pretty mucht he same outcome when they repeated a similar contest 30 years later.

These days, Robert Parker has set a trend toward more fruit forward, higher alcohol wines. If a winery don't cow toe to make his style, it can become doomed in the industry. It doesn't seem to matter what anyone else likes. As a result of his influence, lots of judges tend to favor the same style. Like it or not, but that doesn't have to influence your own taste, but just what you take to competition.


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## dangerdave (Jul 25, 2012)

robie said:


> Consider the 1976 Paris wine competition between American and French wines. IMO, the judges were more interested in identifying the French wines, so they could rate them higher. They couldn't tell which was French. so they resorted to determining which wines were the better wines, taste, color, and aroma-wise. Surely these would be the French wines... WRONG!!! Stage's Leap won in the red Bordeaux (Cab/Sav) and Chateau Montelena won in the chardonnays.


 
I always love that story! I repeat it often to those who still think the French make the best wines.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 25, 2012)

The Price in some cases is determined not only by the quality, this is true. But they are THAT good! And so are the best of California. Some say better. I think there was a time that Parker had the level of influence you describe but I think it has been on the wain for some time. It still does not answer the question what makes a great wine. 
Malvina


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## robie (Jul 25, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> The Price in some cases is determined not only by the quality, this is true. But they are THAT good! And so are the best of California.  Some say better. I think there was a time that Parker had the level of influence you describe but I think it has been on the wain for some time. It still does not answer the question what makes a great wine.
> Malvina



I hear you. We are coming right back to personal opinion and that is a fact, a good fact. The that is THAT can easily translate into $1000+ per bottle. IMPO, that is not THAT good. But people all over the world, every day pay those prices for a bottle of wine, so THAT is still true for many. And THAT is OK.


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## robie (Jul 25, 2012)

dangerdave said:


> I always love that story! I repeat it often to those who still think the French make the best wines.



I read the book about it - Judgement of Paris. There is a lot of argument about whether or not they compared apples to apples (at least the French are making the argument). I believe if they had compared some of the 20 to 25 year old Bordeaux reds to the American reds, the results might have been different. But then they would have been comparing an American 2 to 4 year old to a French 25 year old and how apples-to-apples would that have been?

By the way, that books is an excellent book. Only about the first 1/3 of the book covers the competition, the rest is very insightful concerning wines and terrior all over the world. It goes into how, because of the results of the competition wine regions got a boost and better start all over the world. Very good book!


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## JohnT (Jul 25, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> The Price in some cases is determined not only by the quality, this is true. But they are THAT good! And so are the best of California. Some say better. I think there was a time that Parker had the level of influence you describe but I think it has been on the wain for some time. It still does not answer the question what makes a great wine.
> Malvina


 
A certain level of quality is required for a premium wine, however, once you get to that plateau, the price of wine is mostly determined by economics and what the public (at large) is willing to pay. 

A couple of cases in point.. 

1) Opus one (approx $175 per bottle). This is grown on the Mondavi estates. The Opus vinyard abuts the vines used for the Modavi Cab Reserve ($35 per bottle). Both are made the exact same way. why so much more for the Opus? Because Rothchild's profile is on the label. 

2) Louis Martini (about $30/Bottle). a good description is "Gallo with a fancy label". Gallo had come to power just after prohibition when Americans simply did not know a whole lot about wine. The reputation of the Gallo brand was they made cheap, low quality wine. Several attempts were made by Ernest and Julio to tap into the premium wine market using the Gallo name. Quality simply did not matter. The Brand was just not selling. They ended up purchasing other wineries just so they could sell their premuim wines. 

So most expensive premium wines are expensive because people want them and are willing to pay the set price. Does this mean that the wine is any better? Well, quite frankly, not always. A premium wine is a premium wine. In many cases, the price difference between a $40/bottle wine and a $150/bottle wine is not worth the $110.00.


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## Noontime (Jul 25, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Southlake333 asks was something special done to the wine? Let's start with the grapes.
> Malvina


Absolutely...the difference between good wines and great wines is most likely going to be the ingredients...grapes and yeast. So many quotes out there about "wine is made in the vineyard" and I wish I could remember the one that goes something like, "if you leave the wine alone, and don't screw anything up, it'll take care of itself". I know that was a terrible misquote; basically if you start with great ingredients, the rest is just husbandry.


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## JohnT (Jul 25, 2012)

Noontime said:


> Absolutely...the difference between good wines and great wines is most likely going to be the ingredients...grapes and yeast. So many quotes out there about "wine is made in the vineyard" and I wish I could remember the one that goes something like, "if you leave the wine alone, and don't screw anything up, it'll take care of itself". I know that was a terrible misquote; basically if you start with great ingredients, the rest is just husbandry.


 
IMHO, Close, but not entirely true. 

It is true that it is almost impossible to make good wine out of bad fruit, the opposite is NOT true, just because you have good fruit does not mean that you will automatically end up with good wine. I find that winemaking is never a simple matter of husbandry. There are THOUSANDS of decisions you can make to influence the end product.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 25, 2012)

Noontime said:


> Absolutely...the difference between good wines and great wines is most likely going to be the ingredients...grapes and yeast. So many quotes out there about "wine is made in the vineyard" and I wish I could remember the one that goes something like, "if you leave the wine alone, and don't screw anything up, it'll take care of itself". I know that was a terrible misquote; basically if you start with great ingredients, the rest is just husbandry.


If we assume good wine making practice not necessarily esoteric methods or extreme measures the single most factor that makes great wine are the grapes.
And what is somewhat of a paradox is the better the grapes the easier it is to make great wine than it is to make average wine from average grapes. Not such a terrible quote at all and it is proven when working with the best fruit. In my experience I have never had an easier time making wine using superior fruit. There is no comparison to the effort required making a decent wine from marginal fruit. Actually you can get pretty lazy when using premium fruit there is much less to adjust and the parameters are such that it takes care of itself without large additions of acid , sugar and other additives to make up for shortcomings. Make some wine from premium fruit and you will understand why the prices of expensive wine is what it is. It is not all hype far from it.
Malvina


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## Noontime (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnT said:


> there are THOUSANDS of decisions you can make to influence the end product.


Ahhh...but is there any proof that makes better wine? 

There's a part of me that agrees with you John, but it's such an interesting debate. Even the big boys like Randall Grahm from Bonny Doon can't decide whether to be an interventionalist winemaker or not.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 26, 2012)

People have a wrong impression as to the differences of fruit and the quality of that fruit that exists even from the same vineyard. To say that grapes are the same because they came off a particular vineyard is misleading. Not all grapes are created equally even in vineyards that produce the highest priced fruit. Growing is tailored for the user and the use in many cases. Dropping Crop, thinning, total crop load and other factors in growing also determine the price and quality of grapes even from the same vineyard. To say a 40 dollar bottle is the same as a 100 dollar bottle just because it came from the same vineyard is a mistake. 
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 26, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> People have a wrong impression as to the differences of fruit and the quality of that fruit that exists even from the same vineyard. To say that grapes are the same because they came off a particular vineyard is misleading. Not all grapes are created equally even in vineyards that produce the highest priced fruit. Growing is tailored for the user and the use in many cases. Dropping Crop, thinning, total crop load and other factors in growing also determine the price and quality of grapes even from the same vineyard. To say a 40 dollar bottle is the same as a 100 dollar bottle just because it came from the same vineyard is a mistake.
> Malvina


 
Malvina, 

The opus and mondavi grapes share the same, flat vineyard. They are pruned, watered, and otherwise cared for in exactly the same maner. They are so identical that scammers have taken empty Opus bottles, and refilled them with mondavi cab reserve. 

If grapes are grown together, farmed together, harvested together, in exactly the same soil, sun, and climate, and the wine is produced using the exact same process, then the differences (and I agree that there may be some) will be minute. 

So the question is this. Are the minute differences worth the drastic difference in price? IMHO, they are not.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 26, 2012)

John you jump to a conclusion as to their worth. But you are wrong about what you call grapes that are grown together, etc. For example Beckstoffer Vineyards are grown to a specific contract per acre. First there are certain blocks and rows and then the buyer is given the opportunity to tailor how the grapes will be farmed. This accounts in a wide difference in fruit price per ton in the same vineyard. If a Winemaker pays up to four times the price for certain grapes in the same vineyard do you think he can tell the difference? And do you think he does this for no reason? In the end it translates to high priced wine. You can determine whether you think it is worth it or not but that is not really the point of the discussion. The question should be if you had the grapes in question would you make a great wine from them.
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 26, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> John you jump to a conclusion as to their worth. But you are wrong about what you call grapes that are grown together, etc. For example Beckstoffer Vineyards are grown to a specific contract per acre. First there are certain blocks and rows and then the buyer is given the opportunity to tailor how the grapes will be farmed. This accounts in a wide difference in fruit price per ton in the same vineyard. If a Winemaker pays up to four times the price for certain grapes in the same vineyard do you think he can tell the difference? And do you think he does this for no reason? In the end it translates to high priced wine. You can determine whether you think it is worth it or not but that is not really the point of the discussion. The question should be if you had the grapes in question would you make a great wine from them.
> Malvina


 
Malvina, 

My point is the case of Mondavi VS opus. I understand that if the farming technique is different, and yeilds change, then prices and quality can differ. My point is this is not always the case. A LOT of the price of wine is simply determined by the label slapped on the bottle (like the case of Opus and Modavi). Is this an "across-the-board" fact? No it is not always the case. 

I believe that the initial debate was over the price charged by wine and its cause. In a lot of cases, the price of wine is much less determined by quality and much more determined by marketing. 

I do agree with you that quality grapes CAN make quality wine. This, however, is not assured. 

Do a blind tasting of Opus and Modavi Reserve Cab and see if you can spot a big difference that can justify the price. Trust me, I doubt that you can.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Malvina,
> 
> My point is the case of Mondavi VS opus. I understand that if the farming technique is different, and yeilds change, then prices and quality can differ. My point is this is not always the case. A LOT of the price of wine is simply determined by the label slapped on the bottle (like the case of Opus and Modavi). Is this an "across-the-board" fact? No it is not always the case.
> 
> ...


John the initial debate was *"So I'm really curious as to what makes a wine "good", "high quality", "worth bragging about", etc"* So I think we are talking about what we as Winemakers think what makes great wine not whether you think some wine you mention is worth it or not. It was my first suggestion we start with the grapes.
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 26, 2012)

southlake333 said:


> That is a very good question and part of what I was wondering. I always assumed the high price meant something special was done to the wine. But maybe its more supply/demand. Hmm...does that mean if I make a limited 30 bottle supply they should be worth $1000 each??


 
Malvina, This is what I was addressing.


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## joeswine (Jul 26, 2012)

*Question without-------------------*

THIS IS A QUESTION WITHOUT A REAL ENDING.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 26, 2012)

dangerdave said:


> I always love that story! I repeat it often to those who still think the French make the best wines.



You guys realize that they tried this again with the same wine, 30 years later??? They also did other events between that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)

The best wine will depend highly on the occasion AND the consumer. I have drank $30+ dollar bottles that were not as good as an $8 bottle. 

The whole question relies on opinion, so "best" will be what that person likes. IMO, the cheaper the better! lol.


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## JohnT (Jul 26, 2012)

I assume that you guys have read George Taber's account on that event. But, just in case the rest of you have not, here is the Amazon link.

If you only have seen the movie "bottle shock", there was a bit of "creative license" to make the movie more entertaining. This book gives the more true account. 

I especially like the fact that (after the results were announced) the french judges demanded that Steven Spurrier surrender the score cards. Naturally, Steven refused. They were that embarrassed and felt that they wanted to make sure that noone in France knew the individuals that voted for the American wines. They saw that their reputations were at stake.

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Paris-California-Historic-Revolutionized/dp/0743297326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343321688&sr=8-1&keywords=George+Taber


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 26, 2012)

There are things a Winemaker can do to make a great wine. I thought the interest in discussion would be in that vein. If everyone wants to talk about the price of a bottle then it really is a different conversation. It seems this is the case here. Actually Joe it is a question that has not even been discussed.
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 26, 2012)

Threads are like being in a hot air baloon. One simply goes where the wind takes you.


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## Bartman (Jul 26, 2012)

I believe there are two legitimate but distinct questions here: (1) what winemaking factor(s) (fruit, additions, process, etc.) make(s) great wine 'great' (or conversely, what makes poor wine 'poor') and (2) how do buyers and sellers justify ridiculously high commercial prices of certain wines compared to other similar wines?

The first question is probably unresolvable because almost all of it is personal opinion (even 'poor' fruit can make good wine...if it's your own homegrown 'poor' fruit ), although the extremely bad/toxic wines might be universally agreed. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, right?

But the second question is somewhat more susceptible to objective analysis: while it is still entirely your opinion (however unconsciously you may be affected by Robert Parker's numerology) how good a particular wine is, the prices that are charged/paid/auctioned foris largely a matter of economics and supply/demand. Supply of 'great wines' will always be limited, by definition, but demand is subject to popular press, technical expert opinions, marketing, etc., in the same way fine art is. Why do we all anticipate the values of an artist's works will increase immediately after his death - the finished pieces are no different from one day to the next, but the public perception has changed, and therefore the market value change as well. Same thing for wine- it is not always intrinsic value of the wine, but simply what the 'market' says it is worth.

I recall a 1999 story of a steakhouse in Dallas (Three Forks), which was only a few years old at the time, that had an extensive and expensive winelist, topped by a $35,000 bottle of 1926 Chateau Haut-Brion. The owner/general manager was not a wine connoisseur and had simply bought and offered wines that someone else had recommended to him. A patron ordered it to celebrate a good year for his business but he and his guests complained it was 'spoiled' and sent it back. A I recall, there was outsider speculation that it wasn't spoiled, but simply 75 years old and concentrated to a thicker consistency than your typical Barefoot Cabernet. Since the owner admitted he had no understanding of what wine 'should' taste like (young or old), he ended up 'eating' it. Can a bottle be worth $35,000, and is that strictly a question of personal opinion in a business/retail setting? I'd say yes, the 'market value' *can* be that high or higher, but the agreed upon price is *the* price, regardless of your later opinion - "caveat emptor" isn't totally forgotten, is it?


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## southlake333 (Jul 26, 2012)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Some things that we can do that I have noticed that definitely help the flavor and aromas are:
> 
> Cold soaking grapes prior to fermentation (maceration)
> Cold Fermentation (Whites and fruits only)
> ...





Dugger said:


> The professional tasters probably look for the proper balance of sugars, tannins and acids which results in a quality wine and that is what grape wine makers strive for; I stick mostly to kits so that part is already done but it's still the quality (and thus price) of the ingredients that make the difference.



I think these 2 posts really answered my question but thanks to everyone for their input. Obviously personal taste accounts for a lot, branding exponentially increases pricing as well as supply and demand. But overall, having a clear, balanced wine with the right amount of sweetness, body, aroma, acid, etc for the style is probably what matters most in a determining wine quality. That being the case, any of us home winemaker's should be fully capable of making the highest quality wines.

Now if only I could grow some high quality stuff in my tiny suburban backyard.


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## robie (Jul 26, 2012)

Sorry we get off topic. One thing leads to another and... Staying precisely on topic is not something we are good at. 

To make a better wine, one has to decide just what "a better wine" really is.

We have already discussed the fact that what one person enjoys in a wine is not always agreed upon by everyone.

Do you want to make the wine that tastes best to you and you don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks?

Do you want to make a wine that lots of other folks like, even if you don't like that wine yourself?

Do you want to try and win a prize/ribbon for your wine at a contest?

All these are considerations.

Do you want a white wine, a red, or a rose?

A sweet wine or a dry one?

How long do you want to age the wine before you drink or show it? Whites and roses generally are ready sooner.

One way to potentially improve your wine is to select a yeast strain that brings out the qualities you are looking for in a wine. Here is a yeast chart I have used for a long time. See if there is anything in it in which you might be interested.
http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

Next, you have to make sure the wine turns out its best by not doing anything that might cause volatile acid, oxidation, or anything else that might ruin your wine. So, you need to understand and practice good wine making methods. Best way to learn is to read, ask questions, read more, and make some wine.

The little "tricks" are probably what you are after. There are things you can do to improve your wine, most of them are in baby steps; one step may not make a huge difference but several of them together just may make a big difference. As mentioned, yeast selection is one of them. Learning these, again, takes reading, time, and experience.

Have realistic expectations. A kit wine is never going to revile a Penfold Grange, no matter how hard you try. A wine from an ultra premium kit will typically make a better end result than an inexpensive $50 kit will. (I'll probably hear it for saying that!!!) Though it can be done, don't expect a wine from kit to revile the same variety of wine from fresh grapes. Along the same lines, it is not likely you will have access to the quality of fresh grapes in order to make something as good as a Penfold Grange. They just don't sell them and there is nothing you can do to duplicate them.

This could go on for many more pages. First, answer some of the questions from above; that's a start. Just understand that the end results is generally limited by many things, like quality of grapes, equipment available, sanitation practices, and experience.

You need to educate your palate, so you really do know when you have just tasted a very nice wine. I can't give you all the types of fruit I taste and smell in a wine, but I sure can tell you when I have tasted a wine I really like. 

One thing I do to help educate my palate is to go to as many wine tastings as I possibly can. This way you can taste 4 or 5 nice bottles of wine without having to purchase them.

I don't know if this helps you. So, start asking questions. Someone on here should be able to answer them.


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## southlake333 (Jul 26, 2012)

Bartman said:


> topped by a $35,000 bottle of 1926 Chateau Haut-Brion...Can a bottle be worth $35,000, and is that strictly a question of personal opinion in a business/retail setting? I'd say yes, the 'market value' *can* be that high or higher, but the agreed upon price is *the* price, regardless of your later opinion - "caveat emptor" isn't totally forgotten, is it?



It does make sense that aging should have an effect on price. Its not cheap to keep bottles safe for years and years. The older one is, the more rare it would be...unless is was just old because it was nasty and no one wanted it...lol.


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## southlake333 (Jul 26, 2012)

robie said:


> Next, you have to make sure the wine turns out its best by not doing anything that might cause volatile acid, oxidation, or anything else that might ruin your wine.



Since wine is so subjective, beyond making sure you have the right balance, etc (see earlier post), this makes the most sense to me. Basically, use good ingredients, balance all the attributes and don't spoil your creation. Then in the end if it tastes good its high quality. Sounds fairly simple!


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## robie (Jul 26, 2012)

southlake333 said:


> Since wine is so subjective, beyond making sure you have the right balance, etc (see earlier post), this makes the most sense to me. Basically, use good ingredients, balance all the attributes and don't spoil your creation. Then in the end if it tastes good its high quality. Sounds fairly simple!




You got it, JJ!!! It's all a matter of doing and learning. Every time you make a batch, you will get better at all of the above.


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## JohnT (Jul 27, 2012)

Robie, 

Here, Here! very well put. But, if I may, let me expand on what you were saying about the price of wine... 

Case in point: The Billionairs Vinegar.. 

The highest price (on record) was $156,000 by Ted Turner. This wine was believed to be from a newly discovered stash of wine owned by Thomas Jefferson.

The price paid had NOTHING to do with the quality of the wine. It had everything to do with a "ThJ" etched on the bottle. Parker not withstanding, the price of wine has so much more to do with a wine producer's reputation and marketing. 

Even a poor Chateau Lafite Rothschild can command a high price when compared to a great Penfolds. Plain and simple, price is determined by what the consumer is willing to pay.


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