# Juice Buckets and Grapes experament...where did I go wrong?



## shoebiedoo (Jun 15, 2013)

I purchased 3 different buckets of Toro Negro Chilean juice, Carmenere, Malbec and Pinot Noir, and 1 lug of grapes to go with each bucket. The buckets were forced to stay in the cooler for an extra month waiting for the grapes and had already started fermenting. The grapes came on June 1st and were crushed/DE stemmed and sulfited. On day 2 (prior toadding to the juice) I did notice a slight (Green) smell coming from the grapes. I figured it was just the few stems that were left in the mush (I picked out as many as I could). Like an idiot, added the grape must to the juice anyway. The must finished fermenting just fine and I racked the juice off the grass lees 9 days later with the sg at 1.00 (I know it was a little late but only by a day or so).

I added Oak Powder to corboys prior to racking. They have now finished fermenting (.0996) and I've noticed the (GREEN) smell in the carboys. I'm hoping the aging process will take care of this but having the intentions of making wine from grapes now, is this smell from the stems like I'm assuming? if memory serves me correct the stems were greener in color and the seeds were as well. Is this common with grapes? could this be something else? there was some mold on some of the grapes but they were removed prior to crushing. My SC300 came with a bad pH probe and I just got the replacement so I don't have numbers yet. going to test right now.

Thoughts ?


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## Runningwolf (Jun 15, 2013)

I have not ever done my juice like that but like the experiment. Lets rule out H2S right away. Take two glasses of the wine (equal amounts). Put an old penny in one of them and swirl it around pretty good. Cover both glasses with something. Give it about 5 minutes. Now smell the one with the penny first, then the other. Does the one with the penny smell a lot better or are they about the same. If the penny one is better you have H2S, if they're the same then thats not your problem.


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## ShawnDTurner (Jun 15, 2013)

Shoe, I notice one of mine was fermenting a bit as well. There was H2S being produced when I started combining ingredients. I added nutrients and stirred heavily, the next day the smell was gone. I did a complete destem. Almost half of the Pinot Noir grapes in one lug was moldy. The others looked great. I am still fermenting at the moment. I added Scotts Color pro when I added the grapes. Waited a day or so to add the powder oak (Untoasted). Couple days later I added Medium French about 4 oz of medium French toast chips. (Building Structure).

I am a few days from zero I will be taking this through MLF. I have 3 buckets of Pinot Noir and 3 Pinot Noir Lugs. Its looking really nice so far! I will be adding MFT Oak Plus during MLF. Cheers


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 15, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> I have not ever done my juice like that but like the experiment. Lets rule out H2S right away. Take two glasses of the wine (equal amounts). Put an old penny in one of them and swirl it around pretty good. Cover both glasses with something. Give it about 5 minutes. Now smell the one with the penny first, then the other. Does the one with the penny smell a lot better or are they about the same. If the penny one is better you have H2S, if they're the same then thats not your problem.


 
We can rule out HS2 They both smelled about the same. I have a gallon jug with some as well and that smelled just fine so it has to be something with the carboy. Only difference is the carboy had the oak powder BUT this smell is more like stems than it is oak. I'm going to try racking and seeing if that makes a difference. I can't see how the Oak could have caused it though.


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## joeswine (Jun 15, 2013)

*smelling green?*

*Green* : Usually negative, this can apply to a white wine with vegetal notes, or a red wine with bell pepper or herbal notes. Typically used to describe a wine made from unripe fruit.[5]


this can also apply if there to many seeds, or stems..
]


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## ibglowin (Jun 15, 2013)

Shoe,

Are these your first crack at making wine from (sorta) fresh grapes? If so it may be just the fact that you have GREEN wine. There is a reason they call it that. It smells and taste that way. My first batch of wine made from fresh grapes tasted like honest to goodness twigs and seeds. I shook my head when it went in to the carboy thinking it was gonna be crap. Fast forward almost 3 years and it has turned out amazing. Joe is right about green bell pepper smell. That is usually from under ripened fruit. Thats a hard one to get rid of but there are some tricks if that is it. Cab Franc is especially bad about that smell. 

Don't give up. Keep your sulfite levels up unless your going to do an MLF of course and add your oak and let it do its thing!


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 15, 2013)

Joe: yeah, it's definitely not bell pepper or herbal. And I'm not even going to say it's all that strong. What I can't say is whether or not it's unripe fruit or too many stems. 
Mike, I'm hoping this is typical when using grapes as I want to start doing more wines from grapes (I have a crusher/De stemmer to pay for) and I need to figure out what (smells) is acceptable and what isn't. I might need help in the fall LOL wanna come to Columbus us and he me out


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## joeswine (Jun 16, 2013)

*Green*

this may lighten up over a period of time but will no go away, first, you can filter it then add some grape concentrate , giving back some of the red qualities....the alcohol will help balance out the rest, then you can adjust as need once your back to normal..at least that's what I would try....in some circles herbal is considered green, or grassy.


powdered oak in the secondary..


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## ShawnDTurner (Jun 16, 2013)

Shoe, I noticed you said you added oak powder after racking If you want to prevent those green notes from under ripe fruit or stem. Oak powder should be used at the onset of fermentation. This practice is common in the Wine Industry it is very reliable and is a cheap insurance policy. Anytime you deal with fresh grapes you will have under-ripe berries.

I used it at the onset for my pinot noir to prevent Vegetal/Green component
as well as fix color and increase body. Did you do stem inclusion? I put a few of the really nice stems into my must for structure. I got my grapes from the same source as you. Cheers.


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 16, 2013)

Yeah, putting the powder in secondary is the latest craze  I just hope this odor subsides


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## ibglowin (Jun 17, 2013)

Tannin FT Rouge will also suck up off odors plus add Tannin. Remember your 3P's also!


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 17, 2013)

Piss Poor Performance????? What are you trying to say Mike???  actually, I'm racking it off the heavier lees before MLF. See's to me if the extra gallon I racked is fine, there's something with the 6 gallon so, Small change then patience, patience, patience


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 17, 2013)

Shoe,

I took the same approach as you, creating a "grape pack", with fresh grapes. The juice was around for a week or two before I picked mine up, but both were above 1.090 SG. Mine are in secondary, undergoing MLF now. While they definitely smell different than your average kit at this stage, I don't notice anything too alarming. Hopefully, what you're smelling is just the difference between fresh and kit and will age out shortly. 

Jim


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 17, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> Shoe,
> 
> I took the same approach as you, creating a "grape pack", with fresh grapes. The juice was around for a week or two before I picked mine up, but both were above 1.090 SG. Mine are in secondary, undergoing MLF now. While they definitely smell different than your average kit at this stage, I don't notice anything too alarming. Hopefully, what you're smelling is just the difference between fresh and kit and will age out shortly.
> 
> Jim



I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I might employ some help in the fall so I have a better idea of what's normal and what isn't


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## JohnT (Jun 17, 2013)

Shoe, 

I make only from fresh grapes and remove all stems for this very reason. I have found that stems add a tannin that I do not like. In future, I would recomend that you attempt to remove all of the stems if possible. 

If this issue is based in the stem's tannins, then this shoudl fade somewhat over time. Tannins fade when exposed to oxygen. To confirm this, take a sample and airate the living heck out of it. Let stand open in the glass for about an hour, then compare to a non-airated sample. If you find a marked improvement, then it is likely that this is your issue. 

Another possibility is that the grapes you used had a large amount of second growth clusters. Does the wine taste of pepper/grapefruit?


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 17, 2013)

ibglowin said:


> Tannin FT Rouge will also suck up off odors plus add Tannin. Remember your 3P's also!



I used FT Rouge in the primary on both of my batches. I had no idea it'd suck up off odors. I thought it only helped with color retention and tannin. Who knew?


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## Pumpkinman (Jun 17, 2013)

Mike, 
Great info on the FT Rouge!


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 23, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> I used FT Rouge in the primary on both of my batches. I had no idea it'd suck up off odors. I thought it only helped with color retention and tannin. Who knew?


 
I plan on barrel aging all of these, I'm hoping that will help as well. Or is that a bad idea?


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 23, 2013)

mine are going into the barrel as well.


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## manvsvine (Jun 24, 2013)

it might be h2s , what was your nutrient addition?

most wine odour and flavour issues can be traced back to some form of sulfur issue. 

if splash racking or a bench test with copper clears it up , you have your answer.

reduless would be worth trying and if its not h2s , reduless doesn't negatively impact a wine.

nobless after that would clean up any remaining off character and improve mouth feel , it will also pull the fruit higher in the flavour profile.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 2, 2014)

shoe:

Any updates? I'm wondering if these have cleared up for you at all. My Carmenere using the same tecnique has been in the barrel for 16 weeks now. I'll taste it this weekend to see if I want to let it go a little longer. At last taste, it had a somewhat gamey, almost bell pepper taste/smell, but it was not as much as a few months prior.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 2, 2014)

I fermented 4 juice buckets adding approx. 9 lbs of fresh crushed Sangiovese grapes, these buckets not only smell great, they don't taste bad either, but they are still very young. I think that the only difference is that the Sangiovese grapes that I got were spectacular, these were hands down the best grapes that I've tasted, the Sangiovese wine that I'm currently aging made from these same grapes is outstanding, I cannot wait until it ages a few years.
Jim, did you add tannins to try to correct that?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 2, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> Jim, did you add tannins to try to correct that?



Both the Carm and Malbec got about 8g of Tannin FT Rouge prior to pitching the yeast.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 2, 2014)

Jim,
Now would be a great time to add a cellaring or finishing tannin to add body, unless a lot of astringency is coming through.


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## shoebiedoo (Jan 2, 2014)

I ended up Pitching it all. the older it got the worse it tasted  To put it bluntly! It WAS *@#^@ HORRIBLE . I don't know if the caught a bug or what the heck happened. I started to worry about a bacteria growth and played the side of caution. got rid of the wine, Sanitized EVERYTHING. So far I have not duplicated that flavor so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'm still going with the Too many stems theory though. 

you remember the song.. "_No stems nor seeds that you don't need..."_


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 2, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> Jim,
> Now would be a great time to add a cellaring or finishing tannin to add body, unless a lot of astringency is coming through.



Thanks Tom. I figured I'd need to give it some Tancor Grand Cru, as I do with most red kits. I'll know for sure soon. 

Shoe: that stinks, but better safe than sorry, right?


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