# traditional vs country,



## hounddawg (Mar 24, 2021)

ok i respect those that make all the grape types, and i respect yawls choices, and i do know grapes like yawl do are beyond my ability, and i respect that, i really am humbled buy your knowledge, but i am not into them types of wine, but i am in awl of yawl, you have knowledge i will never have, but forgive me,, when some condensed my country wines, i respect you enjoyments and even in aw of yawls knowledge, that being said, i do get short and feisty when I'm looked down on, and being condescended to, only a few do this, but this very forum taught me that i have only to please myself, and that is exactly what i do, i enjoy my country wine as much as yawl enjoy you fancy grape wines, 
Dawg


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## batman72 (Mar 24, 2021)

well said, since joining few months ago I have valued your opinions, I respect you bro..


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## Arne (Mar 24, 2021)

Maybe you ought to get a batch of grapes and try them out. Ferments are pretty much the same fruits or grapes. Oh, newsflash, grapes are a fruit.  Arne.


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## BernardSmith (Mar 24, 2021)

Dawg, I strongly agree with Arne. Making wine from grapes can feel anxiety provoking but in the end , a grape is just another fruit BUT wine grapes have been grown to contain the amount of sugar that a good wine needs (without any added sugars that country wines need); the amount of juice that a wine needs (without any need to add water); more or less the amount of tannin and acidity we like in a wine. If you can make a delightful wine from berries then you can make a delightful wine from wine grapes. And if you don't want the bother of crushing the fruit to enable the yeast to get at the flesh and if you don't want the bother of pressing the fruit after the yeast have fermented the sugars to extract as much of the juice as possible , then there are kits and if you like grape wine even if you laugh at the thought of having an "educated" (and my palate is as ignorant as they come) then you can make a batch and see what folk are talking about. More: if you dismiss the idea of spending money on a kit containing a concentrate made from grape juice, you can make wine from buckets of frozen juice. 
None of which is to argue that country wines are second tier. I very, very rarely even think about making wine from grapes because I love country wines. I love elderflower wine and hard cider and honey wines and I love SP. But I am not afraid to make a grape wine.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 24, 2021)

I will take the opposite-but-complementary position. I have utmost respect for people who make wine from other-than-grapes. I think grapes are the easiest thing to make wine from. The road is wide and well-trod.

I don't have the patience or the skilz to make a delicious drink out of some of the things I see described here. Someone who can take, say, dandelions or various berries or crabapples and make something that I would WANT to drink out of it, well, I will doff my cap to them.


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## winemanden (Mar 24, 2021)

We had a Judge at our club wine show who said my country wine was highly condemned. I think and hope he was dexliskic. Maybe he was taking the pee, Skeeter of course.


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## balatonwine (Mar 24, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> i enjoy my country wine as much as yawl enjoy you fancy grape wines,



I live in the EU. By EU law, you can not call it "*wine*" unless it comes from grapes (Blame the French.....)

But I have made some great "fermented alcoholic beverages that must remain unnamed" from Cherry, Mulberry and Elderberry.

And, yes I thought some were better than my grapes wines. Just sayin'.....

*Ergo*: The quality of the final product, need not be the source... But the talent of the craftsman.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 24, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> ok i respect those that make all the grape types, and i respect yawls choices, and i do know grapes like yawl do are beyond my ability, and i respect that, i really am humbled buy your knowledge,



nope. not true at all dawg. doesn’t have to be like that.

no chemistry. no lab testing. no nutrients. no yeast. you don’t need any of that stuff. Can be as simple as:
crush grapes
let ferment
press grapes in a week or so
rack and age
rack & bottle
enjoy

badabing badaboom fughetaboutit
up my way we call this OLD SCHOOL. you just don’t hear much about it because these guys ain’t posting on internet forums.


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## balatonwine (Mar 24, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> nope. not true at all dawg. doesn’t have to be like that.
> 
> no chemistry. no lab testing. no nutrients. no yeast. you don’t need any of that stuff. Can be as simple as:



Simple.... Um... Well.... Maybe. But probably not.

Because it is far more complicated in most cases.

A complete topic in of itself.


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## KCCam (Mar 24, 2021)

I have a hard time believing anyone here would put you or your wine down, Dawg. But the great thing about a forum, is you can simply *ignore them. *Don't take offense, don't give offense. 



hounddawg said:


> i enjoy my country wine as much as yawl enjoy you fancy grape wines,


Exactly the point. There's no need to make *fancy grape wines*, when you are a *fancy fruit wine* connoisseur! Don't let it bother you if there are those that can't understand the subtleties of *your *craft. Who cares if someone doesn't think that your taste is as refined as theirs, or if you like strawberry, and they like chocolate? Life is too short to get worked up over what someone else thinks about you or your love. Just make the best damn wine you can, keep learning, and keep sharing.

And I'll bet you could have a lot of fun with grapes. Treat them like any other fruit, experiment, and have fun, man! Cheers.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 24, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> Simple.... Um... Well.... Maybe. But probably not.
> 
> Because it is far more complicated in most cases.
> 
> A complete topic in of itself.


but it doesn’t have to be. just basing that off how my family used to make wine. nothing fancy. bare bones no frills type. no so2. natural ferment. no testing. not suggesting to do it. just saying—- it can, (and has) been done this way by many families for many generations.


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## balatonwine (Mar 24, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> but it doesn’t have to be. just basing that off how my family used to make wine. nothing fancy. bare bones no frills type. no so2. natural ferment. no testing. not suggesting to do it. just saying—- it can, (and has) been done this way by many families for many generations.



Which, why I said "Maybe". And why I said "it is far more complicated".

What is "wine" is complicated. What is "good" wine is a preference. How do we know what "_many families_" created was, to be frank... Any good? Maybe they drank it because, well.... it was "there" and something to drink.

Ergo, it it complicated. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I can admit. A great cider is a wonderful drink. But is it a "wine"? Ay, there's the rub (Hamlet, Act III, Scene I). I would say "yes". But others may disagree. Ergo.... The issue and the problem. Which is really a non-problem in the global scheme of things.

Regarding traditional wine. Some great. Some of it crap. I live in a nearly 2,000 year old wine region. Yes, some traditional wine is great. but some is crap.

Why? Because. Again... It is complicated. I advise to not error in making singular declarations.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 24, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> Which, why I said "Maybe". And why I said "it is far more complicated".
> 
> What is "wine" is complicated. What is "good" wine is a preference. How do we know what "_many families_" created was, to be frank... Any good? Maybe they drank it because, well.... it was "there" and something to drink.
> 
> ...



well said. i’d even go as far to say old school winemaking and commercial wines are almost 2 completely separate categories. hard to compare the two. I grew up with a preference for homemade junk wine before i knew what “good” wine actually was. But i still appreciate it and have even attempted to recreate it before. 
and I did very much enjoy the so2 free/cultured yeast free/nutrient free—- stress free ferment aspect.


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## Booty Juice (Mar 24, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> badabing badaboom fughetaboutit
> up my way we call this OLD SCHOOL. you just don’t hear much about it because these guys ain’t posting on internet forums.



What am I, invisible?


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## balatonwine (Mar 24, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> I did very much enjoy the so2 free/cultured yeast free/nutrient free—- stress free ferment aspect.



I have been working on that that for years. Starting in the vineyard (the Vigneron of my world view -- more of the vines less of the cellar).

My Holy Grail. 

Mixed results. Because.... it is complicated.


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## Bossbaby (Mar 24, 2021)

I have learned a ton of valuable knowledge that I will always remember from @hounddawg , about wine making in general which I apply to anything I am making from peaches to a cabernet sauvignon..


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## hounddawg (Mar 24, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> I live in the EU. By EU law, you can not call it "*wine*" unless it comes from grapes (Blame the French.....)
> 
> But I have made some great "fermented alcoholic beverages that must remain unnamed" from Cherry, Mulberry and Elderberry.
> 
> ...


that just blew my mind,,, whew, illegal, hehe,, and yes the 3 beverages you just named i absolutely love,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Mar 24, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> nope. not true at all dawg. doesn’t have to be like that.
> 
> no chemistry. no lab testing. no nutrients. no yeast. you don’t need any of that stuff. Can be as simple as:
> crush grapes
> ...


yes i know them ways, i met many a person when i spent 9 months at smith point back in the 80's,
MAN to this very day i miss pie made by a potbellied 300 plus,,, hairy elder man,,,,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Mar 24, 2021)

KCCam said:


> I have a hard time believing anyone here would put you or your wine down, Dawg. But the great thing about a forum, is you can simply *ignore them. *Don't take offense, don't give offense.
> 
> 
> Exactly the point. There's no need to make *fancy grape wines*, when you are a *fancy fruit wine* connoisseur! Don't let it bother you if there are those that can't understand the subtleties of *your *craft. Who cares if someone doesn't think that your taste is as refined as theirs, or if you like strawberry, and they like chocolate? Life is too short to get worked up over what someone else thinks about you or your love. Just make the best damn wine you can, keep learning, and keep sharing.
> ...


no, no, no, i don't take offence i feel it is remarkable that they can train their palates the way they do, yes i am not into that, but as i said i am impressed by that fact, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Mar 24, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> nope. not true at all dawg. doesn’t have to be like that.
> 
> no chemistry. no lab testing. no nutrients. no yeast. you don’t need any of that stuff. Can be as simple as:
> crush grapes
> ...


i know your old school, heck, they were doing that 3,000 years ago,,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Mar 24, 2021)

Bossbaby said:


> I have learned a ton of valuable knowledge that I will always remember from @hounddawg , about wine making in general which I apply to anything I am making from peaches to a cabernet sauvignon..


thank you ,, I'm honored, I'm amazed by those on here that do things i have trouble even understanding, 
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (Mar 25, 2021)

I use a simple definition -- wine is any fermented, non-distilled, beverage that does not require an intermediate process such as conversion from starch to sugar, e.g., beer. [Except sake, which requires a conversion using kōji, but the result is closer to wine than beer]

Within "wine" we have subclasses, e.g., red (grape), white (grape), fruit (non-grape which includes vegetables), mead, and sake. _It's all wine._ If someone doesn't like that definition? I don't care. I won't waste time with a pointless discussion.

I don't care for the term "country wine". It feels demeaning to non-grape wines, whereas non-grape wines are a mainstay around the globe. Hence my list is red, white, _fruit_, mead, and sake.

@hounddawg, I'm rolling my eyes at you -- because you said grapes are beyond your ability. It's true only if you let it be true. As @Ajmassa said, the process does not have to be complicated. Scientific tests are a choice, not a necessity. You already have demonstrated you have the know-how to ferment anything. 

If someone puts down fruit wines? A person can insult you only if you care about their opinion.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 25, 2021)

one could argue that scraping cow intestines for yeast to be extremely complicated & impressive as well


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## BernardSmith (Mar 25, 2021)

Not sure that I wholly agree with you, winemaker81. The term "country wine" has a very old and illustrious history. Demeaning? I don't think so. It's how everyday folk in northern Europe who had no access to grapes (too cold to grow) made wine. The aristocrats and the rich and powerful may have spent the workers' hard toil in acquiring expensive wines for their select and very private enjoyment but the real folk - those that worked with the sweat of their brow - made wonderful wines from the hedgerow and from fruit trees and from the vegetables and edible plants they grew. And if a berry harvest might last a few weeks their ability to transform that fruit into wine meant that the shelf life and the nutrition from that fruit was extended months and months. Demeaning? No. Honoring their lives, more like.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 25, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Within "wine" we have subclasses, e.g., red (grape), white (grape), fruit (non-grape which includes vegetables), mead, and sake. _It's all wine._ If someone doesn't like that definition? I don't care. I won't waste time with a pointless discussion.
> 
> I don't care for the term "country wine". It feels demeaning to non-grape wines, whereas non-grape wines are a mainstay around the globe. Hence my list is red, white, _fruit_, mead, and sake.
> ....
> ...



I heartily concur with those statements.

@BernardSmith , I am not versed in the history of the term "country wine." (Not in the OED  .) However, it seems unlikely to me that the people who _made_ such wine gave it the moniker "country wine." Hence the feeling that the term is condescending. I think @winemaker81 was in agreement with your sentiments regarding the honorableness of making the drink of the gods from bounty of the land, whatever that happened to be.

EDITED TO ADD: But I am (honestly) open and eager to learning more about the history of the term "country wine." I was not able to find much from a quick googling, but would be happy to learn more.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 25, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> one could argue that scraping cow intestines for yeast to be extremely complicated & impressive as well


Never done that, but I've made hog casings. Not really complicated, but it stinks. Cleaning out the intestines is worse than scraping.  



BernardSmith said:


> The term "country wine" has a very old and illustrious history.


I agree fully.

I've met folks with severe prejudices -- as a young adult in Upstate NY, it was common to disparage the NY wines as substandard or not even wine. Having lived in NC for 25+ years, I see this same attitude as it relates to the Muscadines. This sad as the wine industry in Upstate NY (mostly hybrids) and in NC (lot of Muscadine) produces a lot of really good wines, and generates a lot of revenue.

In that vein, I've experienced people who put down fruit wines as low brow, using the word "country" as a putdown. This applies to things other than wine, and it irritates me. No doubt this makes me sensitive to it, especially as the opinion is an uneducated one.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 25, 2021)

Ahh, this could be a UK vs. US thing. The Source of All Information  tells me that



> In the United Kingdom, fruit wine is commonly called _country wine_; the term should not be conflated with the French term _vin de pays_, which is grape wine. In British legislation, the term _made-wine_ is used.[4]


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## reeflections (Mar 25, 2021)

Words have different connotations in different regions just here in the U.S.. I have spent my life equally between California, Hawaii, and the Ozarks. Here in the Ozarks, or any rural areas I would presume, using the word "country" for anything is never condescending. Quite the opposite actually. It would be a selling point. If I was selling fruit wine around here, the words "Country Wine" would be prominently displayed on the label. 

When my neighbor was helping me remove a tree that fell on my house a couple of years ago was asked if he would like some homemade jam, his reply was "I like anything that's country."


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## hounddawg (Mar 25, 2021)

reeflections said:


> Words have different connotations in different regions just here in the U.S.. I have spent my life equally between California, Hawaii, and the Ozarks. Here in the Ozarks, or any rural areas I would presume, using the word "country" for anything is never condescending. Quite the opposite actually. It would be a selling point. If I was selling fruit wine around here, the words "Country Wine" would be prominently displayed on the label.
> 
> When my neighbor was helping me remove a tree that fell on my house a couple of years ago was asked if he would like some homemade jam, his reply was "I like anything that's country."


you're smarter than you look all unshaved and that goofy leather hat, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Mar 25, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I use a simple definition -- wine is any fermented, non-distilled, beverage that does not require an intermediate process such as conversion from starch to sugar, e.g., beer. [Except sake, which requires a conversion using kōji, but the result is closer to wine than beer]
> 
> Within "wine" we have subclasses, e.g., red (grape), white (grape), fruit (non-grape which includes vegetables), mead, and sake. _It's all wine._ If someone doesn't like that definition? I don't care. I won't waste time with a pointless discussion.
> 
> ...


woah, poor dumb country boy believes country is high praise,,  lol
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Mar 25, 2021)

reeflections said:


> Words have different connotations in different regions just here in the U.S.. I have spent my life equally between California, Hawaii, and the Ozarks. Here in the Ozarks, or any rural areas I would presume, using the word "country" for anything is never condescending. Quite the opposite actually. It would be a selling point. If I was selling fruit wine around here, the words "Country Wine" would be prominently displayed on the label.
> 
> When my neighbor was helping me remove a tree that fell on my house a couple of years ago was asked if he would like some homemade jam, his reply was "I like anything that's country."


you know the more i think about it, I've seen you some where, nope not the zoo, naw not on the other side of the hemisphere, shuck planet of the???? right on the tip of my tongue ,, can't quite place you, it'll come to me,, i got a memory like jelllo,,, nope nothing i reckon must of been wrong, 
Dawg


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

well, , , , , we should fix that
I have read that all wives love rhurbarb wine


sour_grapes said:


> I don't have the patience or the skilz to make a delicious drink out of some of the things I see described here.


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## BernardSmith (Mar 26, 2021)

I wonder if the disparagement of NY wines is not so much about the hybrids grown here but the indigenous grapes such as concord and catawba... I am sure that Welch's make wonderful juice and jam from those grapes... but wine?


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## winemaker81 (Mar 26, 2021)

@Bernard, you might be surprised at the dislike and scorn some Vinifera drinkers had (at that time) for hybrid wines. Even today, the wine press rarely takes non-Vinifera seriously.

To be fair, the hybrids grown in NY don't taste like Vinifera, and some people can't get past that. Last year I purchased a few bottles of Chancellor from McGregor's, a Finger Lakes winery known mostly for their Russian and eastern European grapes, although they make a great Pinot Noir. My son had never tasted a hybrid, just Vinifera and Muscadine. When he first tasted the Chancellor, his eyes widened, as it was nothing he expected. However, he liked it and very cheerfully helped me finish the bottle. A lot of folks stop when it doesn't taste like Cabernet.

Concord _can_ make a decent wine, although most are not. Manischewitz is far from being a good example.

One winemaker I knew marketed Marechal Foch in the spring -- it's a hybrid red that benefits from aging, and the surrounding wineries didn't put theirs on the market until it was a year old. These were small, new-start wineries, and they put wine on the market ASAP -- gotta pay those pesky bills!

Their secret to making it drinkable in 6 months? 5% Concord ...


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## winemanden (Apr 4, 2021)

I can't really see why people make a fuss over Country wines V Grape wines. After all, most vineyards - not all - are in the Countryside, So "real Wine  " must therefore be a Country Wine.
All sorts of alcoholic brews were being made years before dictionaries were first printed.


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## Arne (Apr 5, 2021)

Here is the deal. Doesnt matter. You are making the wines for yourself and maybe for the pleasure of others. If you like the product doesn't matter what you call it. Nobody is telling you you have to make it this way or that. Folks here will try and help you improve what you are doing but in the end it is made how you want it to be made. Call it what you want only matters if you like it or not. Time to jump off the soapbox. LOL, Arne.


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## Ty520 (Apr 5, 2021)

I've been thinking about this recently, and talking with a local vintner about introducing country wine to his repertoire - we both agree that there are plenty of country wines that are as good, if not better, than many grape wines. I think people who take a leap and venture into country wines at the commercial scale, and start treating them with the same respect, could be at the forefront of a very lucrative and venerable movement in the wine industry


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## BernardSmith (Apr 5, 2021)

I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?


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## hounddawg (Apr 5, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> I've been thinking about this recently, and talking with a local vintner about introducing country wine to his repertoire - we both agree that there are plenty of country wines that are as good, if not better, than many grape wines. I think people who take a leap and venture into country wines at the commercial scale, and start treating them with the same respect, could be at the forefront of a very lucrative and venerable movement in the wine industry


you got me standing on the fence barking, sounds great to me....
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Apr 5, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?


IMHO, that is way off the mark ,, if not self centered to say the least, you supposed and answered guided by your own bias,,,, again IMHO
Dawg


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## reeflections (Apr 5, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> I think people who take a leap and venture into country wines at the commercial scale, and start treating them with the same respect, could be at the forefront of a very lucrative and venerable movement in the wine industry



I sure agree with that. A little over a year ago, I was a devout beer drinker. I'd try different commercial grape wines from cheap to moderately expensive and never found one I really liked enough to start drinking it on a regular basis. My wife, on the other hand, always enjoyed wine and never beer.

Now that I'm making my own wine from various non-grape fruits and juices, I'm hooked. Maybe it's because there is something about making your own, but I like every wine I have made better than any commercial wine I have tried. My wife, who is never afraid to be honest with me, also likes what I have been making better than her old standbys. Some of my friends that were never big wine drinkers are very happy with mine. Of course "free" is a good selling point.

I also know that I am still very new to this hobby and as I learn, I'm certain my wine will improve. Meanwhile, the commercial wines II used to try will always be the same.

I also know that if I ever quit wine making for some reason, I would be sure to check out commercial wines made with fruit other than grapes if they are on the market.



BernardSmith said:


> I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?



While I'm sure many grape wine makers are more demanding of the grapes they use than I am of my original source juice, I'm not sure they are *all* necessarily more demanding than *all *country wine makers. I see a lot of posts here from people that buy what they call "cheap kits" to make their grape wines. I don't know anything about cheap kits or canned grape juice but that doesn't sound any more demanding than I am with my cherries, apricots, blueberries, etc.. Always looking for something better.

I think we all have different demands for our starting juice, depending on what we have access to, can afford, or have found to have worked well for us. Most of all, if it tastes good, it is good.


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## hounddawg (Apr 5, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?


hum, i could of been more tactful, for that i apologize, with that being said, there ain't no one that works harder at going for the best of the best, that being said. come off season , yes , I am at the mercy of the concentrate company, I take extreme pride, all while trying to keep my ego outta it, i grow a lot of my fruits and berries, i spend my year raising some of the highest grade eggs that can be found, and week in week out i take eggs to all my neighbors, one stopped by today and brought me the biggest cheese cake covered in cherries, and told me all his peach trees and apple trees look to have weather the cold snap last week, in my area most all fruit trees are just leaving bloom time, i got a blueberry patch set aside for my use by a ole boy that works the oil lines, yep again eggs, i keep the best, no blood spots, the way eggs are graded is put on a flat surface the yoke to be select must have a pyramid type point on top of the yoke looked at from the side, i keep a type that lays spring, another pen that lay hot weather and another pen that are winter layers, just so i get custom raised fruits and berries, my winter layers are just A grade, thats the yoke is rounded but makes a high dome, no eggs with a flatter yoke on my place, now money cant by most of them peoples fruit, yet eggs get me treated as family, 
so yes some of us country wine makers do go to as much trouble as you traditional vintners
Dawg,,,


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## Ty520 (Apr 6, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> I don't disagree but those who make grape wine demand incredible quality from the grape growers or else they grow the grapes themselves. Those who make country wines tend to be less demanding about the fruit they use, perhaps because those wine makers have never considered themselves like those who make wine from grapes. How much sugar is in the strawberries we use? The raspberries? The pomegranates? Peaches? How much flavor? How much is in the grapes?



I do think many, even most, vintners are excessively and unwarrantedly arrogant, especially in established regions such as France. The Judgement of Paris confirmed that. But prior to the judgement, everyone spit on Californian wine, and now look at them. A vintner in the Rhone valley once boasted that he can sell a horrible bottle of wine that anyone else would dump down the drain, for $4k just because of the value of the terroir and the label on the bottle. Multiple psychology studies have also shown that most experts can't even distinguish between two bottles that cost a difference in ten fold, and that perceived notions like cost, place of origin, etc - even when fictitious - can artificially influence and bias perception.

All of the principles and precision you mentioned can equally be applied to another fruit with the proper due diligence - just like mead, for example,which is working hard to gain equal footing.

The reason country wine is 'country wine' may very well be because those fruits are more easily accessible to middle class hobbyists, but I can hands down say that I have had blackberry wines as good as some of the best pinot, merlot or cab sauv I've tried. 

I'd point out the rather ironic tasting guidelines for sommoliers to describe nose and palette (taken verbatim from the master court of sommoliers): citric, Apple, berry, plum, melon... every other fruit EXCEPT the actual fruit it's made from; in fact, most will argue that a wine that is jammy and actually tastes of grapes is a deficient wine. And then there's tasting and aroma notes such as: straw, mushroom, compost, meat - if ever there were descriptors that should be considered faulty...

As much as I enjoy wine and respect the craft of it's production, I cannot and will not deny the abject arrogance and manufactured elitism that surrounds the culture of wine.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 6, 2021)

Most definitely not a sommelier - or someone with an "educated" palate, but the point about looking for flavors in wines such as "berry" "plum", tobacco etc does not mean that the expectation that a flavor (or aroma) of ONLY apricot or plum is considered the gold standard. Flavors and aromas are incredibly complex and if a wine maker is able to produce in discernible quantities a myriad of identifiably nameable aromas and flavors from a grape varietal that is not to be dismissed. And whether in tiny quantities hints of "mushroom" or... or (and I say this as a vegetarian) "meat" are inherently faults THAT is a matter of taste and not a matter of their presence. You want every dish you eat to be appropriately sweet /salty/ fatty/sour/umami. But when one or more attributes is out of balance then that is a fault . The fault is not their presence.


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> Most definitely not a sommelier - or someone with an "educated" palate, but the point about looking for flavors in wines such as "berry" "plum", tobacco etc does not mean that the expectation that a flavor (or aroma) of ONLY apricot or plum is considered the gold standard. Flavors and aromas are incredibly complex and if a wine maker is able to produce in discernible quantities a myriad of identifiably nameable aromas and flavors from a grape varietal that is not to be dismissed. And whether in tiny quantities hints of "mushroom" or... or (and I say this as a vegetarian) "meat" are inherently faults THAT is a matter of taste and not a matter of their presence. You want every dish you eat to be appropriately sweet /salty/ fatty/sour/umami. But when one or more attributes is out of balance then that is a fault . The fault is not their presence.


hum, that is a personal objective of a group, the gold standard of most people is what tastes good, I have bought very expensive wines and collectable wines and rare vintages, all of which I've poured down the drain, each is subjective to each person, yes a good part of most traditional vintners, describe most of the most desirable traits as leather, chalky, earthy, oaky, is a preference of certain people, where as most peoples gold standard is good taste, and if one surveys that the main gold standard is something that most others do not have therefore sitting snobs aside to make those to feel special about their selves, IMHO
Dawg


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## BernardSmith (Apr 6, 2021)

Not sure I completely agree. Strikes me that the "real" (with ironic quotes) gold standard is the price people are willing to pay for a label. I mean that quite literally: Wine collectors and others pay for labels, not delightful flavors and the label is what gives that wine a pleasurable (or a VERY) pleasurable drinking experience. That's how crooks can (literally) sell junk when they fake the labels and bottles of those wines can sell for 5 figures A True-Crime Documentary About the Con That Shook the World of Wine. If it's dressed like lamb then it must be good. If it's dressed like mutton forget it. In short, like most things in our culture we get pleasure from the taste, smell, and sound of money and that is something that "excites" the symbolic parts of our brain and not from what excites our unmediated sense of smell and taste and sight and touch and sound. Those things are kinda free and you get what you are willing and able to pay for - or so say the Captains of Industry and Economy.


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## Ty520 (Apr 6, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> Most definitely not a sommelier - or someone with an "educated" palate, but the point about looking for flavors in wines such as "berry" "plum", tobacco etc does not mean that the expectation that a flavor (or aroma) of ONLY apricot or plum is considered the gold standard. Flavors and aromas are incredibly complex and if a wine maker is able to produce in discernible quantities a myriad of identifiably nameable aromas and flavors from a grape varietal that is not to be dismissed. And whether in tiny quantities hints of "mushroom" or... or (and I say this as a vegetarian) "meat" are inherently faults THAT is a matter of taste and not a matter of their presence. You want every dish you eat to be appropriately sweet /salty/ fatty/sour/umami. But when one or more attributes is out of balance then that is a fault . The fault is not their presence.



FYI, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. Just trying to make some points to think about. I'm finding that commercial mead makers seem to be equally as arrogant and snotty. I guess this even applies to beer brewing - "excessive" hops and sourness were once considered faults and are now on trend... unfortunately.

The general point being, it seems that grape wine vintners in particular can get away with eschewing 'best practices' simply by declaring that they are being edgy or trendy or experimental - and people will cheer for them. They decide what is in favor at their own whim - and sometimes even to cover up mistakes. 

An example: the Oxidative Wine trend around 2009. 

Many Spanish wines have traditionally been oxidated - not entirely intentionally, but simply because the barrels they had on hand were old and porous and aged for extensive periods in areas with poor climate control - it thus became the tradition, and the local acquired taste, "best practices" aside. I'm glad you brought up 'umami' profiles because speaking of traditional oxidated spanish varietals, which are often described as umami, this style was traditionally referred to as "rancio,' or rancid. A french vintner - then and now - would insist that these spanish wines are $#!t.

Like all fads, many thought barrel aging was "old fashioned" and started moving to stainless steel; but on the contrary, some traditional producers began embracing the tradition with a rabid fervor and intentionally flaunting "best practice" by not only intentionally using old barrels, but also intentionally not even topping them off, and leaving tons of 'excessive' head room. While even others began applying the method to Italian and French styles.

In fact, a winery called Scholium Project defined themselves on Oxidated wines, and the founder admits that it was completely the result of an accident via negligence and laziness on his part.


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

exactly , self centered ways of those that need to believe that something makes them better then others, it is sad that,,, that group need such petty things to enjoy life. on them things that feel what they can buy gives them good feelings, as long as others cant, i bet them false labels went a while being praised till the real makers caught on to someone cutting into their profit, such a pleasant thought on how pathetic the so called upper crust really are, i see what you mean, your point pleases me quite well, thank you @BernardSmith, yes, just like gold fever, i know some Germans that their vacation home is very near me, that without knowing what they were saying, while they explain how buying American trucks and taking them to Germany, of how other Germans on narrow streets had to look up to see them, yep 14 million Euro's a year,,, but still need others look up to them,, to feel good/worthy, that is a warming thought,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

my above statement is not a blanket statement, there are those that are great people, just not loud like the rest
Dawg


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## BernardSmith (Apr 6, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> In fact, a winery called Scholium Project defined themselves on Oxidated wines, and the founder admits that it was completely the result of an accident via negligence and laziness on his part.



Don't drink it but isn't sherry oxidized wine? and what is a sour beer but a beer that has been exposed to Brett and Ped and other spoilage bacteria. What is considered a "fault" by some today may be viewed by many, tomorrow, as a desirable trait. The question is less about flaws in wines as much as who is claiming what is a flaw and whether wines that are thus viewed as flawed are always as undesirable and unpleasant as those who dismiss them claim? Heck! Americans LOVE lagers that are so tasteless that they need to be chugged chilled... Anyone who has ever tasted "real ale" knows that beer can be enjoyed at normal room temperatures and don't need to near-freeze your mouth so that cannot in fact taste how tasteless they in fact are ... But that claim means nothing when Bud and their ilk pour $$$ into their banks as fast as folk here crack open another brewski.


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## Ty520 (Apr 6, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> Don't drink it but isn't sherry oxidized wine? and what is a sour beer but a beer that has been exposed to Brett and Ped and other spoilage bacteria. What is considered a "fault" by some today may be viewed by many, tomorrow, as a desirable trait. The question is less about flaws in wines as much as who is claiming what is a flaw and whether wines that are thus viewed as flawed are always as undesirable and unpleasant as those who dismiss them claim? Heck! Americans LOVE lagers that are so tasteless that they need to be chugged chilled... Anyone who has ever tasted "real ale" knows that beer can be enjoyed at normal room temperatures and don't need to near-freeze your mouth so that cannot in fact taste how tasteless they in fact are ... But that claim means nothing when Bud and their ilk pour $$$ into their banks as fast as folk here crack open another brewski.



But that's the point - what's "right" today is "wrong" tomorrow and what's "wrong" today might be "right" tomorrow...

... the issue lies in the fact that only 'certain' 'select' people get to dictate when those winds can change direction


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## BernardSmith (Apr 6, 2021)

That is debatable. I think we all decide what we enjoy. And that might be a sour mead or a wine made with Brett, a wine so sweet it peels the enamel off your teeth or a wine so dry that you can strike a match with it. It might be a fruit wine that uses no water or a fruit wine that the wine maker merely waves the fruit above the primary and calls the water suitably flavored. 

The "select" might be the "influencers" of the rich and famous but I neither follow those "influencers" or those "influencers" that saturate TikToK or Youtube or other social media... That said, as social mammals of course we are "influenced" by our world. Whether that "world" is the world that is created and shared by the media we all recognize or that world is shared by a select media made up of a few Rabbinic figures limited to a very very local community of Hassidim who live in a village next door to NYC. and that said, I may not in fact "know" what I enjoy but when I stumble over it and choose to to try it and find that I love it then you are not going to be able to convince me that I am mistaken about what I like and don't like. Sure some things are an "acquired" taste unless my goal is to use what influencers like to insert myself in their universe , then what I really like may be quite distant and alien to what they like and that is not really my problem (and by "my" problem I mean anyone's problem other than the influencers'. Those old time and current "influencers" make their living by influencing others. I make mine in the academic world.


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

@BernardSmith the,,, grape wine,, ,mead,,, or country wine is not the point , but you, yourself has stipulated that traditional wines are the premier wine based on what cooperate puts in the bank, as a matter of fact all your posts in this thread you've tried to justify based on what the upper crust claims, so that they feel better about oneself, a big part of my adult life was spent face to face dealing with multi-billionaire developers, yet it seems they cant be happy unless someone else is not able to have what they can have, i had a aunt that when she passed had better then $90,000,000,,, her and her husband were on the phones at the crack of dawn on Sundays,, that was 2 cell phones each and 1 land line, while i set on the lake/river dad and I,, with my cell turned off, and two fishing poles each, oh, after my aunt passed 3 years ago, her son is now broke and working like a dog, one of her daughters OD'D on hard drugs and passed and her last daughter last month stopped on the side of a inner state in TN. told her kids that if they did not shut up she'd step in front of a car, her oldest daughter told her to go ahead, she did, closed coffin,, you speak of why what you like is why it is premier, yet i feel that what is our best liked is our premier, I have no problem with what anyone likes, yet you seem to need most others to be inferior,, you have my pity and i pray you to find peace, God Bless You
Dawg


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## BernardSmith (Apr 6, 2021)

First, Dawg, I am so sorry that so many of your family was /is in so much pain throughout their lives that they ended those lives either through self mediation or through other means. But I think what I wrote cannot have been clear if your reading is as you write it. What I was trying to suggest was only that what you or I or anyone gets pleasure from is the only criterion of what is good. But that there are some folk who don't enjoy what their senses tell them is pleasurable. Rather THEY enjoy what the labels tell them and labels ONLY tell them the cost in dollars. So, the wines they hold up as superlative may be junk in terms of taste and aroma just as long as OTHER PEOPLE -including themselves are willing to pay four , five, six figures for a bottle. Me? I truly, truly, believe that a bottle of SP shared with loved ones is among the finest drink on planet Earth. I would argue that my elderflower wine is delightful and my orange t'ej is wonderful. I don't care if it is dinged by judges and might viewed as less than crap by sommeliers in Manhattan. (Actually, I DO care that a wine I make is dinged by judges... because I want to please those judges because I view trained judges as good judges but I know I may be very wrong).


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## cmason1957 (Apr 6, 2021)

I say all this is just like mental mastubation. Make what you like to drink and drink it. If others like it, so much the better. But for the most part, I make what I like and then a few for the family that like sweeter stuff. I'm not trying to make everyone like the dry red grape wines I like. It doesn't mayest to me what someone else likes. 

Country, grape, vegetables, candy, it's all good, if you like it.


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> First, Dawg, I am so sorry that so many of your family was /is in so much pain throughout their lives that they ended those lives either through self mediation or through other means. But I think what I wrote cannot have been clear if your reading is as you write it. What I was trying to suggest was only that what you or I or anyone gets pleasure from is the only criterion of what is good. But that there are some folk who don't enjoy what their senses tell them is pleasurable. Rather THEY enjoy what the labels tell them and labels ONLY tell them the cost in dollars. So, the wines they hold up as superlative may be junk in terms of taste and aroma just as long as OTHER PEOPLE -including themselves are willing to pay four , five, six figures for a bottle. Me? I truly, truly, believe that a bottle of SP shared with loved ones is among the finest drink on planet Earth. I would argue that my elderflower wine is delightful and my orange t'ej is wonderful. I don't care if it is dinged by judges and might viewed as less than crap by sommeliers in Manhattan. (Actually, I DO care that a wine I make is dinged by judges... because I want to please those judges because I view trained judges as good judges but I know I may be very wrong).


hum, i can't argue with this post, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I say all this is just like mental mastubation. Make what you like to drink and drink it. If others like it, so much the better. But for the most part, I make what I like and then a few for the family that like sweeter stuff. I'm not trying to make everyone like the dry red grape wines I like. It doesn't mayest to me what someone else likes.
> 
> Country, grape, vegetables, candy, it's all good, if you like it.


mental what? i just called child protection on you  lol
Dawg


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## Bossbaby (Apr 6, 2021)

I wish I lived down the road from you @hounddawg so I could come over for a drink and spit some dip once in awhile, we would get a long .....


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## hounddawg (Apr 6, 2021)

@Bossbaby ,, Agreed,,,, shade tree ,, smoker fired up, and corks pulled
Dawg


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## Bossbaby (Apr 6, 2021)

@hounddawg I'll bring the fresh bowkill turkey and venison and 10 bottles of Elderberry....


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## Arne (Apr 6, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> @Bossbaby ,, Agreed,,,, shade tree ,, smoker fired up, and corks pulled
> Dawg


Don't want to forget, can of worms and catfish pole. Arne.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 6, 2021)

Arne said:


> Don't want to forget, can of worms and catfish pole. Arne.



Everybody in the South knows you use stink bait to catch catfish. Worms is for breem.


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## Ivywoods (Apr 7, 2021)

Love this back and forth. I find the "country" interesting, and considering myself very country, I embrace it. Oh, it's not that I don't enjoy the "finer things" in life sometimes, too! As far as wine goes, I'm still new enough that I'm still learning just what I do like and struggling with making this "#*!! skeeter pee work!
Houndog-I'll bring some venison and homemade breakfast sausage!


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## hounddawg (Apr 7, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Love this back and forth. I find the "country" interesting, and considering myself very country, I embrace it. Oh, it's not that I don't enjoy the "finer things" in life sometimes, too! As far as wine goes, I'm still new enough that I'm still learning just what I do like and struggling with making this "#*!! skeeter pee work!
> Houndog-I'll bring some venison and homemade breakfast sausage!


skeeter pee is super easy, add water sugar, yeast nutrient, yeast energizer and add only 1 quart lemon per 6 gal water, ferment when ferment holds the same for 3 days iin a row add the rest of your lemon then rack to your secondary/carboy
Dawg


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## Ivywoods (Apr 7, 2021)

Hounddog If only I had started this batch that way.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 7, 2021)

am i the only one who has never had a country fruit wine? or a skeeter pee?


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## Bossbaby (Apr 7, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> am i the only one who has never had a country fruit wine? or a skeeter pee?


Yes I think you are actually the only person in the entire planet of Jersey whom has never had a fermented fruit beverage.


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## hounddawg (Apr 7, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> am i the only one who has never had a country fruit wine? or a skeeter pee?


they still any of those old world fellers still ma king pie out there on that coast,,, 
Dawg,,,


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## Ivywoods (Apr 7, 2021)

Now my question is approximately how much elderberry juice concentrate should be added to skeeter pee per gallon for flavoring? How about raspberry? As far as the tart cherry goes, if this doesn't ferment down as much as I would like I might just add all I have! I don't think it's as concentrated as the raspberry and elderberry I have ordered. I still have to add the rest of the lemon. I'm waiting to see if I can get the SG down a little lower before I mess with it any more other than stirring.


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## hounddawg (Apr 7, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Now my question is approximately how much elderberry juice concentrate should be added to skeeter pee per gallon for flavoring? How about raspberry? As far as the tart cherry goes, if this doesn't ferment down as much as I would like I might just add all I have! I don't think it's as concentrated as the raspberry and elderberry I have ordered. I still have to add the rest of the lemon. I'm waiting to see if I can get the SG down a little lower before I mess with it any more other than stirring.


elderberry is a very strong flavor, as for raspberry, i have only used black raspberry, which is strong as well, and yes most tart cherry concentrate it uses less water then most concentrates, as for how much will be on the label of how much water to add per part, i on SP use only lemon , does your skeeter pee have other flavors or just one or all three of them flavors
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Apr 7, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Now my question is approximately how much elderberry juice concentrate should be added to skeeter pee per gallon for flavoring? How about raspberry? As far as the tart cherry goes, if this doesn't ferment down as much as I would like I might just add all I have! I don't think it's as concentrated as the raspberry and elderberry I have ordered. I still have to add the rest of the lemon. I'm waiting to see if I can get the SG down a little lower before I mess with it any more other than stirring.


what company are you ordering from. i know where i order from cherry makes less so yes your right it is not as concentrated as the other 2
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Apr 8, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> am i the only one who has never had a country fruit wine? or a skeeter pee?


just a traditionally old world vino drinker, i respect that, country wines don't have as old a history here in the Ozarks, hehe, but we enjoy , just as well,,,
Dawg


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## Arne (Apr 8, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Now my question is approximately how much elderberry juice concentrate should be added to skeeter pee per gallon for flavoring? How about raspberry? As far as the tart cherry goes, if this doesn't ferment down as much as I would like I might just add all I have! I don't think it's as concentrated as the raspberry and elderberry I have ordered. I still have to add the rest of the lemon. I'm waiting to see if I can get the SG down a little lower before I mess with it any more other than stirring.


How warm do y ou have your must? Get it up to 75 or even 78 or so. If it takes off good then, make sure you have enough nutrient in it.. Should ferment fast at that temp. If you are having still having trouble, next time ferment a wine you want to have a little of the flavor in your skeeter, rack your wine off the lees, and start your skeeter directly in the fermenter with the lees in it. Bet it will take off like gangbusters. Arne.


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## Ivywoods (Apr 8, 2021)

Skeeter is 75 right now. It stays warner in that room than any other place in the house. I added nutrient a while back, so I don't think I should add any more. I still have it in buckets. I am stirring vigorously at least twice a day. I get lots of foam (CO2?) every time I stir. The SG has dropped slightly, so at this point it is moving along very S.....L......O......W......L.......Y!


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## Ivywoods (Apr 8, 2021)

As far as flavoring, the red raspberry and elderberry I ordered is from Fruitfast. The tart cherry was just some I picked up at Walmart, their store brand. Houndog-I wish I had black raspberries. I love them, but don't have access to any right now.


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## hounddawg (Apr 8, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> As far as flavoring, the red raspberry and elderberry I ordered is from Fruitfast. The tart cherry was just some I picked up at Walmart, their store brand. Houndog-I wish I had black raspberries. I love them, but don't have access to any right now.


you lve here in the USA I use in off season and things i don't grow i use,,, www.colomafrozen.com they have single fruit/berry concentrates,,
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (Apr 9, 2021)

Ty520 said:


> I've been thinking about this recently, and talking with a local vintner about introducing country wine to his repertoire


This seems to be a growing trend in areas not known for Vinifera wines. Looking at wineries in southern and eastern North Carolina, I see a large number produce fruit and grape/fruit blended wines. I haven't checked, but I suspect this is far less likely in Napa Valley.

Unless a winery is doing so well from its primary line up (e.g., dry Vinifera), it makes sense to broaden the line up to appeal to multiple tastes. Why not have a line up where _something _will appeal to most people who walk into the tasting room?



Ty520 said:


> I'd point out the rather ironic tasting guidelines for sommoliers to describe nose and palette (taken verbatim from the master court of sommoliers): citric, Apple, berry, plum, melon... every other fruit EXCEPT the actual fruit it's made from


This sounds ironic, doesn't it? I laughed when I read your comment. However, we describe things in terms of other things we already know, so without using other fruits as a model, how would we describe the taste and smells in wine?

Much of our communication depends on referencing commonly known terms ... which may explain why humans often have such a hard time communicating ...  



Ajmassa said:


> am i the only one who has never had a country fruit wine? or a skeeter pee?


Time to broaden your horizons!!!

A lot of fruit wines are available -- buy a few and try them, with the understanding that they are _very _different. At first you may not think of them as wine. You will never think of them in the way you think of the wines you make. But you may like at least some of what you try.

Like when my son -- who has had Vinifera, Muscadine, and fruit wines -- tasted Chancellor (French-American hybrid) for the first time. It took a few sips for him to get a mental handle on the difference from Vinifera, and to decide he liked it.

BTW, I've not made skeeter pee or dragon's blood, and it's doubtful I'll make either. But if someone offers me a glass, I'll surely try it, and probably enjoy it.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 9, 2021)

Thanks, for that link, Dawg. Looks like these folk produce a number of interesting concentrates. I may try them out.


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## Arne (Apr 9, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> As far as flavoring, the red raspberry and elderberry I ordered is from Fruitfast. The tart cherry was just some I picked up at Walmart, their store brand. Houndog-I wish I had black raspberries. I love them, but don't have access to any right now.


Bet I know where you can get some plants. I spend a lot of time at Glen Elder. If you are headed up north sometime let me know and I could bring a few down with me. Few years and you can have an endless supply of them. Arne.


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## Ivywoods (Apr 9, 2021)

Arne-I'm in the process of renovating the house we bought. We bought it knowing we would be doing some updating, but we didn't realize just how extensive it was going to be. As soon as we are done with that and moved in I will be starting on the yard, garden and vineyard. Maybe THEN I could take you up on that offer.


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## hounddawg (Apr 9, 2021)

BernardSmith said:


> Thanks, for that link, Dawg. Looks like these folk produce a number of interesting concentrates. I may try them out.


i got 4 gallons of pear coming, going to make a pear apple , crab apple, wine around 30 gal finished that's after counting the apple to boot,,,,
Dawg


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## Ty520 (Apr 9, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> This seems to be a growing trend in areas not known for Vinifera wines. Looking at wineries in southern and eastern North Carolina, I see a large number produce fruit and grape/fruit blended wines. I haven't checked, but I suspect this is far less likely in Napa Valley.



We have a prominent wine growing area an hour south of here; a few years ago a guy opened up a meadery/cider house/Country winery under one roof as a way to stand out and offer something new and unique from his competitors. He launched with just mead,and only now is starting to sell ciders,but so far no country wines for public consumption yet


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## Arne (Apr 10, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> Arne-I'm in the process of renovating the house we bought. We bought it knowing we would be doing some updating, but we didn't realize just how extensive it was going to be. As soon as we are done with that and moved in I will be starting on the yard, garden and vineyard. Maybe THEN I could take you up on that offer.


They will still be around next year and the years after that, I imagine. Keep it in mind, the offer stands. Arne.


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