# Elderberry wine



## ffemt128

I decided that I will be starting my Elderberry wine while I'm on vacation after Christmas. I have 110-115 lbs of berries in my freezer. I'll be shooting for 6 lbs per gallon which should yield approximately 18 gallons of finished wine. 

My plan is to steam the berries as I have done in the past. 10 lbs of berries yields a gallon of juice. I will be shooting for 1.085-1.090 starting gravity and will adjust acid to .72%. Once this batch is done steaming I'll save the skins and start a 2nds batch with all the skins which will yield approximately 5-7 more gallons.

Here is a past recipe I've used with great success. The recipe below used about 4.5 lbs per gallon.

I started my 2011 Elderberry today. I need to go to the store for red grape concentrate. I'm using the same basic recipe that I have used in the past and will adjust accordingly. My recipe for each 5 gallon batch will be as follows:

2 1/4 gallons of steamed Elderberry juice
Sugar to 1.085 
4 cans Welches red grape concentrate
Acid Blend to .70% (Second batch will use Tartaric acid)
3/4 tsp tannin
Pectic enzyme as per directions
1/4 tsp Kmeta
Yeast Nutrient as per directions
Lavin D47 yeast (had good luck with this last year)
1 1/2 oz Medium toast french oak cubes for 6 weeks.


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## ffemt128

My Red Grape Concentrate should be arriving today. Not going to use frozen concentrate as has been done in the past.


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## Stressbaby

Hi Doug,

My 2015 elderberry is done fermenting and aging in the carboy. I will be following this thread.

My recipe differs from yours in a number of ways, but one I want to ask you about is the acid. I feel as if I've been making better wine since I stopped using acid blend (for anything except apple), and switched to only citric, tartaric, or some combination of the two. This year's elderberry I made with 80% tartaric and 20% citric.

I welcome thoughts from you or anyone on the acid used in elderberry wine.

Robert


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## wineforfun

I too will be following as this years elderberry is clearing in carboys as I type.

Robert,
I do use acid blend so am curious about your use of only tartaric and citric. Why just those two and not the blend?

My differences from Doug's are a)I don't steam my juice, I just freeeze the fruit then let thaw and squeeze the #%^& out of it to extract all the juice I can and b) I don't add any grape concentrate.

I make it with oak and without, both. Without gets backsweetened to make a semi-sweet wine.


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## Julie

I don't steam mine either, I use about 5 pounds per gallon, leave the berries in for about 5 days, take them out squeeze but not as hard as wineforfun does. I then put the bag of berries into another fermenting bucket add 5 to 6 cans of Welch's white grape juice, add enough water for 5 gallons and I make a 2nds. Another thing I do is add sacrificial and cellaring tannins.


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## ffemt128

Stressbaby said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> My 2015 elderberry is done fermenting and aging in the carboy. I will be following this thread.
> 
> My recipe differs from yours in a number of ways, but one I want to ask you about is the acid. I feel as if I've been making better wine since I stopped using acid blend (for anything except apple), and switched to only citric, tartaric, or some combination of the two. This year's elderberry I made with 80% tartaric and 20% citric.
> 
> I welcome thoughts from you or anyone on the acid used in elderberry wine.
> 
> Robert


 
Robert,

I generally use tartaric only any more. In 2011 I did 2 batches, one with Acid Blend and one with Tartaric. Both finished with the same TA%. I thought the Tartaric was more bold tasting but the one with the Acid Blend seemed to be slightly smoother to the taste. I received the same comments from several people.


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## wineforfun

Julie said:


> I then put the bag of berries into another fermenting bucket add 5 to 6 cans of Welch's white grape juice, add enough water for 5 gallons and I make a 2nds.



Great idea, I usually just discard it due to not much substance left. I may give the seconds a go next time. I assume it would end up similar to a blush or rose.


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## Julie

wineforfun said:


> Great idea, I usually just discard it due to not much substance left. I may give the seconds a go next time. I assume it would end up similar to a blush or rose.


 
Yes it comes out as a rose but the elderberry flavor is still pretty strong. It needs to age for at least 2 years.

LOL, two years ago the elderberries, very plumb and very juicey, so I bought a Niagara from homewinery and added the berries after it was done in the 2nds and made a 3rd wine.


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## cmason1957

This is my third year to make elderberry wine. Both of the previous years were pretty durn good. I ended up with about 110 lbs of elderberries this year (long story) and a local winery had niagra and concord grapes for almost next to nothing. So my wife and I decided to make elderberry wine three different ways. We have some with concord grapes, some with niagra grapes, which are both aging with some oak in them. We will also be making some plain elderberry. The two aging both taste interesting. I used acid blend to up the acid just a bit and added some water to them. The elderberries were frozen prior to using.


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## Julie

cmason1957 said:


> This is my third year to make elderberry wine. Both of the previous years were pretty durn good. I ended up with about 110 lbs of elderberries this year (long story) and a local winery had niagra and concord grapes for almost next to nothing. So my wife and I decided to make elderberry wine three different ways. We have some with concord grapes, some with niagra grapes, which are both aging with some oak in them. We will also be making some plain elderberry. The two aging both taste interesting. I used acid blend to up the acid just a bit and added some water to them. The elderberries were frozen prior to using.



I am very interested in the elderberry and concord, please let us know how that is.


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## cmason1957

Julie said:


> I am very interested in the elderberry and concord, please let us know how that is.



We have heard that from several folks. It was the ending up with so many elderberries and a winery nearby deciding not to harvest their grapes, due to tornado damage, that gave us the opportunity to try something a wee bit different. I am sure we will be reporting on how this goes. So far the Niagara tastes and smells better, but it is early and things change with time, as we all know.


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## Julie

Niagara and elderberry pairs very well together. Another one that totally surprised me was elderberry and fredonia.


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## Stressbaby

Julie said:


> Yes it comes out as a rose but the elderberry flavor is still pretty strong. It needs to age for at least 2 years.



My second run elderberry from 2014 is pretty darn good at 1 year. So I guess this is good news to me in a way!


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## Julie

Stressbaby said:


> My second run elderberry from 2014 is pretty darn good at 1 year. So I guess this is good news to me in a way!



LOL, I thought mine was pretty darn good at one year until I tried it at 2 years.


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## ffemt128

Steaming the elderberries eliminates the green goo. I will take a the skins and run a seconds batch as well except rather then using white grape concentrate I use the same red grape concentrate. Turns out pretty well..with strong elderberry flavors due to the amount of skins..


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## FTC Wines

Ok, I take the easy route! I buy elderberry concentrate from Home Winery in Dundee Mi, like $32 bucks to make 5 gals. But I add a pint of Cab to the mix. So it's a little more but 5 pints to a 5 gal batch makes a GREAT every day wine! Brought it tonight to a "low country boil" party & it was a BIG success! OK they are mostly beer drinkers. BUT the wino's loved it! Roy


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## ffemt128

The closer it gets to Christmas, I'm getting more and more anxious to get this started. I figure the steaming process will be done over the course of 2 days since each 10 lbs of berries take about 45-60 minutes to finish. Each 10 lbs yields about 1 gallon of juice and there is plenty of juice and flavor left in the skins to make the seconds batch. I have my 2 1/2 gallons of red grape concentrate ready to go. Hoping to have a nice fermentation of the full batch and the seconds batch going by New Year's Day.....


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## ffemt128

Cleaned all equipment and fermenters tonight. Going to start steaming 120lbs of elderberries tomorrow. Hope to pitch yeast Wednesday on both primary and secondary batch Wednesday...


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## montanaWineGuy

My 2015 Elderberry wine is many times better then last years. One significant thing I did different this year was racked the wine more often. I'm convinced that the green goo does harm the finished product. My 2014 when complete still developed some green goo as it aged. My 2015, bottled over 2 month ago is still clear as a bell.

Raw wild picked berries, before de-stemming 5 gallon bucket of berries for 6 gallons of wine. Next year I'm going to do second runs to use in topping off the carboys after racking, vs. using grape concentrate.


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## ffemt128

Had some technical issues after the installation of the new microwave so I'm using the induction cook top this year..

I've found steaming you don't get the goo...


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## ffemt128

Apparently the induction cooktop doesnt like my Stainless Steamer...


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## Julie

ffemt128 said:


> Apparently the induction cooktop doesnt like my Stainless Steamer...



oh oh what happened?


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## ffemt128

Truly stainless. The induction cooktop requires at least a small amount of metalic metal in order to trigger the on switch.

(metallic metal should be magnetic...my bad)


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## ffemt128

Seven gallons of 100% elderberry juice sitting in the fermenter. Still have about 55 lbs of berries to steam tomorrow. Shooting for right around 6 lbs per gallon. I have 28 lbs of skins from today that will be combined with tomorrows skins to make a 7 gallon 2nds batch...


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## sour_grapes

ffemt128 said:


> Truely stainless. The induction cooktop requires at least a dmall amount of metalic metal in order to trigger the on switch.



Stainless is certainly metallic. It is (or, should I say, many grades of it are) not ferromagnetic. 300 series is NOT ferromagnetic, 400 series is.


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## ffemt128

Thats what I meant to say, it need to be magnetic. Of course stainless is metalic ... lol


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## Gussman

*Steamer*

Where did you get that nice STEAMER? I want one LOL.


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## ffemt128

Gussman said:


> Where did you get that nice STEAMER? I want one LOL.


 

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055Q2D2W/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## sour_grapes

ffemt128 said:


> Thats what I meant to say, it need to be magnetic. Of course stainless is metalic ... lol



Okay, that makes sense!

Geek alert! I am going to be geeky for a moment and discuss the magnetism of stainless steel. Please just ignore this if not interested. I fully understand that almost no one will care, and it has almost nothing to do with elderberry winemaking, but I am stuck inside until this rain lets up!

The magnetism (or lack thereof) in steel and stainless is interesting. Normally, metal atoms "want" to be as close together as possible, and so adopt a crystal structure (that is, the arrangement of the atoms) that allows this. There are two such structures, but we will only deal here with the one called face-centered cubic (FCC).
You would naively expect pure iron to be FCC to allow the atoms to pack as closely together as possible. However, there is one problem: iron atoms (Fe) have a magnetic moment, and the FCC structure does NOT allow these magnetic moments to all line up. (Magnetic moments "want" to line up, that is, they have lower energy that way.) Therefore, it turns out to be more favorable (lower in energy) for the atoms to take on a different crystal structure, called body-centered cubic (BCC), even though the atoms are not packed in as closely as possible. The consequent alignment of the magnetic moments of each atom makes iron ferromagnetic.

[Note to experts: I am not going to go into the addition of carbon to iron to make steel, i.e., pearlite, cementite, etc. Even in steel, it is the remaining FCC iron that makes it ferromagnetic.]

Now, how do you make stainless steel? You start adding nickel (Ni) and or chromium (Cr) to the regular iron steel. This makes the steel "stainless" because the oxides of Ni and Cr form a layer on top of the steel that prevents further oxidation. (This is why the wires in your toaster, for example, are a Ni-Cr alloy.)
However, Ni and Cr have much smaller magnetic moments than Fe does. If you add enough Ni and/or Cr, the energetic "payoff" from having the atoms arranged in a BCC structure (to allow the alignment of the magnetic moments) is no longer sufficient to overcome the energetic payoff of allowing the atoms to pack more closely in an FCC structure. Thus, the atoms rearrange into an FCC structure, and the magnetic moments are scrambled, and you lose the ferromagnetism. This is how the 300 series of stainless steel is formed.

However, if you add only a little Ni, the BCC structure remains. (Many of the 400 series grades of stainless are made this way.) Because the BCC structure remains, the magnetic moments can all align, and the material will be ferromagnetic.

Because of the low Ni content, 400 series stainless is cheaper to make. It is appropriate for applications where only mild resistance to oxidation is needed, like furniture or the skin of stainless steel kitchen appliances. So, if you have ever wondered why refrigerator magnets stick to _some_ stainless steel refrigerators, but not others, well, now you know!


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## ffemt128

Here are some initial numbers.... SG = 1.016, ph = 3.87 and ta = .5703% . I was a little surprised by the ph and ta numbers so I calibrated my ph meter and check again. They were accurate.


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## ffemt128

sour_grapes said:


> Okay, that makes sense!
> 
> Geek alert! I am going to be geeky for a moment and discuss the magnetism of stainless steel. Please just ignore this if not interested. I fully understand that almost no one will care, and it has almost nothing to do with elderberry winemaking, but I am stuck inside until this rain lets up!
> 
> The magnetism (or lack thereof) in steel and stainless is interesting. Normally, metal atoms "want" to be as close together as possible, and so adopt a crystal structure (that is, the arrangement of the atoms) that allows this. There are two such structures, but we will only deal here with the one called face-centered cubic (FCC).
> You would naively expect pure iron to be FCC to allow the atoms to pack as closely together as possible. However, there is one problem: iron atoms (Fe) have a magnetic moment, and the FCC structure does NOT allow these magnetic moments to all line up. (Magnetic moments "want" to line up, that is, they have lower energy that way.) Therefore, it turns out to be more favorable (lower in energy) for the atoms to take on a different crystal structure, called body-centered cubic (BCC), even though the atoms are not packed in as closely as possible. The consequent alignment of the magnetic moments of each atom makes iron ferromagnetic.
> 
> [Note to experts: I am not going to go into the addition of carbon to iron to make steel, i.e., pearlite, cementite, etc. Even in steel, it is the remaining FCC iron that makes it ferromagnetic.]
> 
> Now, how do you make stainless steel? You start adding nickel (Ni) and or chromium (Cr) to the regular iron steel. This makes the steel "stainless" because the oxides of Ni and Cr form a layer on top of the steel that prevents further oxidation. (This is why the wires in your toaster, for example, are a Ni-Cr alloy.)
> However, Ni and Cr have much smaller magnetic moments than Fe does. If you add enough Ni and/or Cr, the energetic "payoff" from having the atoms arranged in a BCC structure (to allow the alignment of the magnetic moments) is no longer sufficient to overcome the energetic payoff of allowing the atoms to pack more closely in an FCC structure. Thus, the atoms rearrange into an FCC structure, and the magnetic moments are scrambled, and you lose the ferromagnetism. This is how the 300 series of stainless steel is formed.
> 
> However, if you add only a little Ni, the BCC structure remains. (Many of the 400 series grades of stainless are made this way.) Because the BCC structure remains, the magnetic moments can all align, and the material will be ferromagnetic.
> 
> Because of the low Ni content, 400 series stainless is cheaper to make. It is appropriate for applications where only mild resistance to oxidation is needed, like furniture or the skin of stainless steel kitchen appliances. So, if you have ever wondered why refrigerator magnets stick to _some_ stainless steel refrigerators, but not others, well, now you know!


 

Thanks for the explanation, that would explain why my cheap stainless pots from Harbor Freight work with my induction top. I use those in the cellar to make my simple syrup mixtures.


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## cmason1957

ffemt128 said:


> Here are some initial numbers.... SG = 1.016, ph = 3.87 and ta = .5703% . I was a little surprised by the ph and ta numbers so I calibrated my ph meter and check again. They were accurate.



What surprised you about these numbers?? They seem about what I would expect, I have always had to add some acid to my elderberry wine to get it to a fairly normal 3.3 or 3.4 ph. I don't generally worry much about the TA, so I don't have those numbers off the top of my head.


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## ffemt128

cmason1957 said:


> What surprised you about these numbers?? They seem about what I would expect, I have always had to add some acid to my elderberry wine to get it to a fairly normal 3.3 or 3.4 ph. I don't generally worry much about the TA, so I don't have those numbers off the top of my head.


 

I've always had to add acid as well, to be honest I thought the TA was a little high and the ph a little low.. Everything is mixed. Yeast will be pitched this am..


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## ffemt128

71b Yeast was pitched and we have full foamy fermentation. Were talking foamy as in meringue type foamy.


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## ffemt128

Transferred my 2nds batch to glass yesterday. 7.5 gallons. Looks to be very full bodied. The all elderberry batch was still at 1.004 Sg. I'll check that later today and possibly transfer if closer to 1.000. 11 days of fermenting. I think the colder Temps in the cellar attributed to the time..


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## stevo

*question on the eldeberry*

I made this from the large cans of juice ,came out strong in the eldeberry taste a little too strong, and very bitter, the smell is not so great but it tastes and smells like eldeberries,can I add anything to these before drinking to sort of cut the bitterness?


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## Julie

did you check you acid level? I'm thinking you need to lower your acid.


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## stevo

no I have not checked acidity but I will get a meter, should the acidity for all fruit wines be around the same?


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## Julie

actually I like my elderberry to be around .80% TA. The strong flavor of the elderberry can handle the higher TA.


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## Stressbaby

*Bitterness vs acidity*

Stevo,
I consider bitterness differently from acidity. How old is the wine? Bitterness could be from the wine being young; I've had bitter fruit wines mellow out with age, so you probably should do nothing until this wine has bulk aged for a while. There is a fining agent called Bentolact which is supposed to help with bitterness, I have never tried it.

Doug,
We would love to see some pictures!

Robert


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## ffemt128

Stressbaby said:


> Stevo,
> I consider bitterness differently from acidity. How old is the wine? Bitterness could be from the wine being young; I've had bitter fruit wines mellow out with age, so you probably should do nothing until this wine has bulk aged for a while. There is a fining agent called Bentolact which is supposed to help with bitterness, I have never tried it.
> 
> Doug,
> We would love to see some pictures!
> 
> Robert


 

I'll see what I can do over the next few days. I want to transfer the main batch this week in the evenings. 

Julie, I'm with you. The batch I made that won the gold medal was at .78% which is where I generally shoot for. I went with .75 pre fermentation and will adjust as needed post.


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## ffemt128

Transferred the primary Elderberry over to glass after work. I ended up with 21 gallons of wine from 126 lbs of berries. 6 lbs per gallon. Has good elderberry aromas.

Here's a pic..

The 4 carboy on the right and the single gallon in front are the primary batch. The 6 gallon and 1 1/2 gallons to the left are the seconds batch.


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## ffemt128

I need to check the amount of sediment that has dropped in these over the past 3 weeks. My general schedule is to rack off heavy lees about 2-3 weeks after hitting glass then regular 30-60 day rackings from there.


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## ffemt128

Racked the Elderberry off the heavy lees after initial transfer to glass. Lots of sediment dropped out as was anticipated. Full 6 gallon carboy and a 1/2 gallon jug from the 2nds batch. Primary batch was 1-6 and 3-5 gallon carboys being filled to the bottom of the neck. Kmeta was added now the waiting game begins. Next racking in approx. 60 days.


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## hounddawg

I aint any to bright but I love my elderberry wine, on your apple, pear elderberry and a lot of other country wines, as I've never made any thing using grapes I like to use lite amounts of sergeants yellow crabapples, I feel that I get far better flavors, for instance to make say a starter I make a 6 an 1/2 gallon carboy so time I get to a 5 gallon finish wine , I use a blend of 20 lbs granny smith apples, 20 lbs of yellow dellisous apples? cant spell 40 lbs pears and 3 lbs of sergeants yellow crab apples, I freeze everything, then put in my ferment barrel mix with drill and go from there, the point being I use crab apples instead in most any wine I want a full finish with, just my 2 cents, you did say anybody, 
richard:: 







Stressbaby said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> My 2015 elderberry is done fermenting and aging in the carboy. I will be following this thread.
> 
> My recipe differs from yours in a number of ways, but one I want to ask you about is the acid. I feel as if I've been making better wine since I stopped using acid blend (for anything except apple), and switched to only citric, tartaric, or some combination of the two. This year's elderberry I made with 80% tartaric and 20% citric.
> 
> I welcome thoughts from you or anyone on the acid used in elderberry wine.
> 
> Robert


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## ffemt128

Took a look at the elderberry wine the other day. Primary batch is looking pretty clear at this point, the secondary batch is still looking a bit cloudy. I need to check my records but I think racking may be in order the end of this month.


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## ffemt128

I'm going to shoot for trying to get this racked off today at lunch time. Last racking was the beginning of February and it's looking very clear at this point. Need to rack, kmeta and sorbate then let age a few more months. I can't wait to be able to say I have 100+ bottles of Elderberry on the rack. It's one of my favorite wines.


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## wineforfun

I don't have anywhere near 100 bottles of it, but along with you, love the elderberry wine. Very unique flavor.


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## ffemt128

I finally got time to rack my 27 gallons of Elderberry wine today.


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## thecrewking

How would you describe elderberry wine flavor? Got some in the freezer and thinking about it as my next wine



wineforfun said:


> I don't have anywhere near 100 bottles of it, but along with you, love the elderberry wine. Very unique flavor.


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## wineforfun

thecrewking said:


> How would you describe elderberry wine flavor? Got some in the freezer and thinking about it as my next wine



Wow, that is a tough one. Not sure really. Kind of a sweeter merlot maybe. It just has a very unique "twang" to it, and in a good way to me. I really like elderberry.


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## Jericurl

> How would you describe elderberry wine flavor? Got some in the freezer and thinking about it as my next wine



Elderberry is a hard flavor to describe.

The best way for me is...It is what I thought red wine tasted like when I was a child. Fruity, rich, deep. Heavily fragrant, great mouthfeel.

I love adding elderberry to just about any kit I make or any wine or mead that I am making. It is just wonderful.

And I realize I didn't really describe elderberry to you.
I guess the closest taste for me would be a mix between grape wines and blackberry, but a richer taste.


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## hounddawg

for being hard to describe you hit the nail on the head, I live in the Ozarks,
where I live myself and about every wine drinker was raised on elderberry, followed by Muscadine, or called from the white type muscat... 
richard::








Jericurl said:


> Elderberry is a hard flavor to describe.
> 
> The best way for me is...It is what I thought red wine tasted like when I was a child. Fruity, rich, deep. Heavily fragrant, great mouthfeel.
> 
> I love adding elderberry to just about any kit I make or any wine or mead that I am making. It is just wonderful.
> 
> And I realize I didn't really describe elderberry to you.
> I guess the closest taste for me would be a mix between grape wines and blackberry, but a richer taste.


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## Jericurl

All this talk of elderberry made me want some.

We brought a bottle of our elderberry/blackberry mead over for Mother's Day.
It was a big hit.

Probably time to start thinking about making another batch.


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## barbiek

I'm hoping my elderberry bush does as well as my blackberry bushes are looking their loaded!! Will try to remember to take photo tomorrow


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## WVMountaineerJack

I think a good Temranillo comes close as any grape wine to an elderberry that has a little oak in it. WVMJ


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## FTC Wines

I agree with Jack, our first Temranillo is now 18 mos old. In ways it's similar to Elderberry, but the Elderberry is unique. Our Elderberry wine is made from concentrates, 80% Elderberry, 20% Cab. Most who taste it say" this is really a good Red" then add it's a little different! Roy


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## ffemt128

I'm thinking it's time combine the elderberry and back sweeten. I have 21 gallons of elderberry and 6 gallons of 2nd's elderberry. I'm thinking of racking the 21 gallons into a 20gallon food grade drum I have to combine and blend then back sweeten the entire batch. After that it will go back into carboys for aging and some medium French oak in some of it. Maybe this weekend.


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## WVMountaineerJack

Id suggest a 30 gallon drum for your 21 gallons of wine, we dont want to waste any elderberry wine WVMJ


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## ffemt128

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Id suggest a 30 gallon drum for your 21 gallons of wine, we dont want to waste any elderberry wine WVMJ


 
I finally got around to racking and blending all the elderberry. I racked into my 32 gallon Brute then transferred back into carboys. May shoot for back sweetening this evening if time permits.


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## Julie

Doug,

Have you been out looking for berries this year yet? Mike and I took a ride on the side by side last weekend. Elderberries are doing very well up here this year. I am looking at a bumper crop. Also, choke cherries are looking pretty promising, also. I'm thinking I am going to do an elderberry choke cherry wine.


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## ffemt128

Julie said:


> Doug,
> 
> Have you been out looking for berries this year yet? Mike and I took a ride on the side by side last weekend. Elderberries are doing very well up here this year. I am looking at a bumper crop. Also, choke cherries are looking pretty promising, also. I'm thinking I am going to do an elderberry choke cherry wine.


 

I've been checking since the middle of June. If flower quantity is any indication, it will be a very good year. Found a bunch of new locations this year.


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## ffemt128

Back sweetened the Elderberry last night to 1.004. Pretty darn good if I do say so. I want to check the acid and SO2 levels this weekend then get ready for bottling. 

I need to call Lafitte Cork and Capsule and order some corks.


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## Stressbaby

Picked my first few elderberries of 2016 today.


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## cmason1957

My wife and I picked about 15 lbs two nights ago. I am guessing we will get 50-75 lbs from the plants we have in our yard. It inspired us to taste or elderberry wine from 2013, it was well worth the wait. Great nose, long lasting finish. Hints of cherry, light oak. I'm glad we have lots of bottles of it.


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## ffemt128

Nothing will be ready here until the beginning of August.


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## Julie

berries are just now forming around here, I'm usually about a week or two behind ffemt128. Lol, so I wait for to say he is starting to pick then I start watching closely!


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## hounddawg

yes ma'am, all elderberries justcoming intotheir green state they should fill out and be black soon, as for black berries only about 10 to 20 % are ripe shamefully dad my nephew and I have ate most every one on a 1 mile loop,, 
my pears are loaded but a little small, my peaches are young. like i'll only about 20 peaches or so, mom has done stated hinting,, oh well, I guess she'll win, but both my neighbors pears and granny smith apples are loaded, we've been getting a little dusty between rains this year, but good lord willing and thecreekdon't rise I should ,ok, how bout you miss Julie, is fruit looking good there,, I hope your season is a god one, I've seen a few muscdines this year but nt lots of them I know this is a bad time to plant but I found 4 elderberries around 4 feet tall so I dug em up and replanted them in my back yard, 3 of the 4 looks like they'll make it and I found 3 more on the pastrture , how does it look around your place are the fruit and berries looking good, I hope so, I really do.. 

Dawg







Julie said:


> Doug,
> 
> Have you been out looking for berries this year yet? Mike and I took a ride on the side by side last weekend. Elderberries are doing very well up here this year. I am looking at a bumper crop. Also, choke cherries are looking pretty promising, also. I'm thinking I am going to do an elderberry choke cherry wine.


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## Julie

Dawg,

Yes fruit is looking very good this year. I won't have apples cuz we did a big trim but I'm good with that, got a pile last year. Our oldest lives in Monroe, NC and has a good 30 ft muscadine vineyard that is completely loaded and if the deer haven't gotten to the fig,mshould have enough for figgie pudding and a batch for wine. Also, for the first time my Niagara grapes and Catawba grapes are producing so I should have enough to make a 5 gallon batch of each. And concord is overflowing, plenty for a batch of jam a a couple batches of wine.


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## hounddawg

hey Arne.
I've been buying some stainless steel to make a fermenter stirrer, i'm told 304 is not considered food grade, but 303 is, i'm at the mercy of what i'm told on this subject, never been my element of knowledge, so am I being lied to or not, 
Richard 





sour_grapes said:


> Okay, that makes sense!
> 
> Geek alert! I am going to be geeky for a moment and discuss the magnetism of stainless steel. Please just ignore this if not interested. I fully understand that almost no one will care, and it has almost nothing to do with elderberry winemaking, but I am stuck inside until this rain lets up!
> 
> The magnetism (or lack thereof) in steel and stainless is interesting. Normally, metal atoms "want" to be as close together as possible, and so adopt a crystal structure (that is, the arrangement of the atoms) that allows this. There are two such structures, but we will only deal here with the one called face-centered cubic (FCC).
> You would naively expect pure iron to be FCC to allow the atoms to pack as closely together as possible. However, there is one problem: iron atoms (Fe) have a magnetic moment, and the FCC structure does NOT allow these magnetic moments to all line up. (Magnetic moments "want" to line up, that is, they have lower energy that way.) Therefore, it turns out to be more favorable (lower in energy) for the atoms to take on a different crystal structure, called body-centered cubic (BCC), even though the atoms are not packed in as closely as possible. The consequent alignment of the magnetic moments of each atom makes iron ferromagnetic.
> 
> [Note to experts: I am not going to go into the addition of carbon to iron to make steel, i.e., pearlite, cementite, etc. Even in steel, it is the remaining FCC iron that makes it ferromagnetic.]
> 
> Now, how do you make stainless steel? You start adding nickel (Ni) and or chromium (Cr) to the regular iron steel. This makes the steel "stainless" because the oxides of Ni and Cr form a layer on top of the steel that prevents further oxidation. (This is why the wires in your toaster, for example, are a Ni-Cr alloy.)
> However, Ni and Cr have much smaller magnetic moments than Fe does. If you add enough Ni and/or Cr, the energetic "payoff" from having the atoms arranged in a BCC structure (to allow the alignment of the magnetic moments) is no longer sufficient to overcome the energetic payoff of allowing the atoms to pack more closely in an FCC structure. Thus, the atoms rearrange into an FCC structure, and the magnetic moments are scrambled, and you lose the ferromagnetism. This is how the 300 series of stainless steel is formed.
> 
> However, if you add only a little Ni, the BCC structure remains. (Many of the 400 series grades of stainless are made this way.) Because the BCC structure remains, the magnetic moments can all align, and the material will be ferromagnetic.
> 
> Because of the low Ni content, 400 series stainless is cheaper to make. It is appropriate for applications where only mild resistance to oxidation is needed, like furniture or the skin of stainless steel kitchen appliances. So, if you have ever wondered why refrigerator magnets stick to _some_ stainless steel refrigerators, but not others, well, now you know!


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## hounddawg

do muscadine need cut back like grape vines I got a couple trees that are 5 to 6 feet thru, they have the biggest vines up to around 4 inches thru, on other trees I have woody vines 1 to 2 inch or so thru, I've never had muscadines on them last couple years I cut a few smaller ones back that could hurt a horse I've lived here since 88 never not 1 muscadine, yesterday out checking black berries I saw muscadines on two different cut back vines these I think was cut 2 years ago, I hate cutting big vines, nature an all you know, but I do have several 1 an 1/2 to 2 inch as long as I know I wont kill them, and do they discus this on the grape vine growing forum. 
thank you
richard 






Julie said:


> Dawg,
> 
> Yes fruit is looking very good this year. I won't have apples cuz we did a big trim but I'm good with that, got a pile last year. Our oldest lives in Monroe, NC and has a good 30 ft muscadine vineyard that is completely loaded and if the deer haven't gotten to the fig,mshould have enough for figgie pudding and a batch for wine. Also, for the first time my Niagara grapes and Catawba grapes are producing so I should have enough to make a 5 gallon batch of each. And concord is overflowing, plenty for a batch of jam a a couple batches of wine.


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## garymc

Muscadines can be pruned very similarly to grapes. I've cut mine off 6 inches above the ground and they've almost always sent out new shoots from the sides of the stump and/or the root. Prune for production after winter is over in early spring. On last year's wood leave 2 to 4 buds. On the shoots that grow from those buds will be this year's muscadines.

I'm not saying you want to cut them off a few inches off the ground, but if a rabbit gnaws the vine and damages it or you run over it with a mower or winter damage kills it down to a foot off the ground, you have to cut it off.


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## cmason1957

Julie said:


> I am very interested in the elderberry and concord, please let us know how that is.




We bottled the elderberry and concord wine recently. We are a little disappointed in it. It does have a nice elderberry taste, with a hint of concord underneath it. But it is missing something, not exactly sure what that something is. I don't have the PH and TA numbers from pre-bottle. We probably won't be doing it this way again.


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## montanaWineGuy

Elderberries are looking promising this year. Still raw but lots and lots of them. I'm looking to make 2 six gallon batches, and pick enough to put in the freezer for another 2 six gallon batches come spring time.


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## ffemt128

Julie said:


> berries are just now forming around here, I'm usually about a week or two behind ffemt128. Lol, so I wait for to say he is starting to pick then I start watching closely!


 
Some are just starting to turn now. Should be about 3 more weeks I think.


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## Stressbaby

We are picking already. I have about 10# in the freezer so far.


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## ffemt128

Stressbaby said:


> We are picking already. I have about 10# in the freezer so far.


 

May take a ride down to the one location this weekend. Looking just about ready on one of the several bushes.


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## ffemt128

and just like that, the birds got to the berries before me...


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## mikewatkins727

Welcome to my world_!!_


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## Scooter68

ffemt128 said:


> and just like that, the birds got to the berries before me...



Yeah, I went out the other day to check on a couple of concord vines we have over an archway. Reached up to pick one, heard a rustle in the leaves of the vine and next thing I knew a squirrel was running away from my feet. Varmits!! Picked everything that looked ripe right then and there.


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## Stressbaby

My issue, minor issue this year, was PEOPLE.
I went last Sunday and there was a well-trodden path where someone had obviously been through and picked all the easy to reach berries.
I still have what I need but had to work harder for the berries.


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## Julie

Stressbaby said:


> My issue, minor issue this year, was PEOPLE.
> I went last Sunday and there was a well-trodden path where someone had obviously been through and picked all the easy to reach berries.
> I still have what I need but had to work harder for the berries.


 
And I bet there were making jelly!!!!!!!!!!


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## garymc

Yeah, those jelly makers just go for the low hanging fruit.


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## barbiek

I netted my elderberry last week the dang birds were eating the berries before they had gotten ripe!


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