# Just curious; why not top up?



## Fedoradude (Feb 9, 2016)

Interestingly enough, my Winexpert Cab Sauv instructions are pretty clear about not topping up the carboy with water or wine. (See pic below. I dont' think I have an F-pack kit).

Just curious; why do they not recommend topping up? Doesn't that extra space (air) run the risk of CO2?


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## grapeman (Feb 9, 2016)

I believe they are assuming that you began with the right amount of liquid and you did not lose a lot at racking. I bet that you have a new Italian carboy which holds over 6 gallons, hence it is not full. I would keep it topped up once it has finished fermenting.


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## ibglowin (Feb 9, 2016)

The WE Opinion is that there is enough CO2 in the wine to protect it still even with that much headspace. One the wine has finished fermenting and you have degassed the wine and added the stabilizing agents etc. you then need to rack down or top up with a similar wine, never top up with water.


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## AZMDTed (Feb 9, 2016)

I don't have the instructions with me, but as I recall they are only talking about the period covered by the instructions, including the 28 day clearing. However, I think the instructions then say that if you're not bottling at that time then you do need to top up to within 2 inches from the bung with a similar wine. I'm pretty sure that's what the Eclipse instructions say. So at this point, WE does think there is enough CO2 left, SO2 in the wine, and/or not enough time of exposure to worry about oxidation.

BTW, as you get more experience making kits you will learn that you can transfer more of the liquid, including some of the 'gunk' at the end of primary and secondary which will give you more wine than you have now. The extra stuff will fall out during clearing.

And Grapeman is correct, not all 6 gallon carboys are created equal. The Italian 23 liter carboys are a cup and a quarter larger than 6 gallon carboys. This can be frustrating keeping track of which ones to use for long term storage, i.e., the smaller ones, and the bigger ones which you more room for stirring during clearing.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 9, 2016)

Thanks, everyone. So would I gain anything by topping up here in this 2 week clearing period by stepping in now 2 days later and topping up with commercial Cab Sauv?


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## Johnd (Feb 9, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Thanks, everyone. So would I gain anything by topping up here in this 2 week clearing period by stepping in now 2 days later and topping up with commercial Cab Sauv?



Personally, once I have degassed and added KMS and the clearing process begins, I top up about an inch below the stopper. 

You'll not do any harm either way, unless you haven't got ALL of the gas out. Once you top up, you'll have to remove wine if you attempt to agitate or vacuum gas out, or make a huge mess.


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## AZMDTed (Feb 9, 2016)

It wouldn't hurt anything if you pour it in slowly now so you don't kick up any of the sediment that's dropped. But I'm also not sure it's needed. If you're going to bulk age you may as well go ahead and do it now. If you're going to bottle when the instructions permit then you're probably just fine leaving it alone.


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## heatherd (Feb 9, 2016)

I'd wait until you're done fermenting and degassing, then top up.


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## grapeman (Feb 9, 2016)

Yes it will be alright at this point without topping up, but you do want it topped once done fermenting like I said before. Also there is quite a bit of variation in size of the Italian carboys. I have around 25 and every one of them is larger than 6. It can vary from a pint over on some up to 2 quarts over n others. I use them for small batches and topping up larger barrels and tanks.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 9, 2016)

I think my next step is - assuming proper clearing occurs - bottling.

But if I poured the commercial Cab Sauv into my thief and then press the thief against the side of the carboy, it should flow into the carboy (down the insides) slow enough to avoid stirring the sediment at the bottom.


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## Floandgary (Feb 9, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Interestingly enough, my Winexpert Cab Sauv instructions are pretty clear about not topping up the carboy with water or wine. (See pic below. I dont' think I have an F-pack kit).
> 
> Just curious; why do they not recommend topping up? Doesn't that extra space (air) run the risk of CO2?



FYI With extra headspace the risk is too much exposure to Oxygen not CO2. After active fermentation the production of CO2 is diminished so the amount of protective CO2 is not there. Hence the need to top-up and reduce headspace!!


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## AZMDTed (Feb 9, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> I think my next step is - assuming proper clearing occurs - bottling.
> 
> But if I poured the commercial Cab Sauv into my thief and then press the thief against the side of the carboy, it should flow into the carboy (down the insides) slow enough to avoid stirring the sediment at the bottom.



That would work, but like the others I don't think it's necessary at this point, especially if you're going to bottle after clearing. Wine is actually hardier than we often give it credit for, assuming proper cleaning and sanitation throughout.


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## Johnd (Feb 9, 2016)

grapeman said:


> Yes it will be alright at this point without topping up, but you do want it topped once done fermenting like I said before. Also there is quite a bit of variation in size of the Italian carboys. I have around 25 and every one of them is larger than 6. It can vary from a pint over on some up to 2 quarts over n others. I use them for small batches and topping up larger barrels and tanks.



Grapeman, check the instructions he posted and see if you agree: if he's at the step shown in his instructions, fpack added, reserved wine returned, he's already added KMS and sorbate and clearing agents. Fermenting is done. IMO, it's top up time.


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## grapeman (Feb 9, 2016)

I think you are right John but I did say it should be topped up once finished fermenting. If it is done fermenting, it should be topped in some way. I guess what puzzles me is how it can be done and cleared when it looks so murky. I wouldn't even consider bottling wine that wasn't settled out good but hey, that's me.


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## Johnd (Feb 9, 2016)

grapeman said:


> I think you are right John but I did say it should be topped up once finished fermenting. If it is done fermenting, it should be topped in some way. I guess what puzzles me is how it can be done and cleared when it looks so murky. I wouldn't even consider bottling wine that wasn't settled out good but hey, that's me.



Agreed on all counts. Looks like those steps were completed shortly before the photo, with clearing just getting underway.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 10, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Agreed on all counts. Looks like those steps were completed shortly before the photo, with clearing just getting underway.



Yes. The pic was taken the day I did the last steps of adding final ingredients etc.

By the way, probably a dumb question, but what is an F-pack? The directions mentioned "If doing an F-pack kit...." I just added the last 3 ingredients packages that day. They were all numbered 3-5. 2 were powdery and the 3rd was like a gel stuff.


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## Johnd (Feb 10, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Yes. The pic was taken the day I did the last steps of adding final ingredients etc.
> 
> By the way, probably a dumb question, but what is an F-pack? The directions mentioned "If doing an F-pack kit...." I just added the last 3 ingredients packages that day. They were all numbered 3-5. 2 were powdery and the 3rd was like a gel stuff.



Not a dumb question if you haven't done one. Many kits that finish sweet and have flavors added to wine base, like Island Mist type kits, use Flavoring Packs (F-Packs for short). They typically contain sufficient amounts of sugary syrup and flavoring to make the wine base taste like what the kit says it will. For example, if you were making a Pineapple Pear Pinot Grigio, you'd make your wine (presumably from Pinot Grigio juice) and at the clearing stage, when your wine is dry and you are adding your other chems, the F-Pack would go in too. This provides the pineapple and pear flavor as well as the level of sweetness the kit designers intend for that style of wine. These kits come with the fpack. BTW, some folks also make their own fpacks with fresh fruit, see joeswine posts for details if you're interested.

The two "powdery" things you added were Potassium Sorbate, which is used to prevent fermentation from restarting in the bottle. There's a lot more to say about that topic, do some forum searches if you're interested; the second was Potassium Metabisulfite, which is has antimicrobial properties, anti-oxidation properties, and just protects your wine from spoilage. Lots more to read about that too, I'm trying to be fairly brief.

The "gel stuff" was probably chitosan, which is a shellfish derivative, used to aid and speed the process of clearing your wine. If your wine was properly degassed and you mixed it well, you probably saw millions of little specs circulating in the wine, that's the chitosan at work, all that stuff settles to the bottom and compacts pretty well to form a layer of fine lees that you will rack off of and leave behind at your next racking.

Clear as mud???


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## Fedoradude (Feb 10, 2016)

I think you explain it pretty well, John. Thanks.

I'm leaning towards swinging by my favorite spirit store and buying a bottle of Cab Sauv to top on up with just to be safe.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 10, 2016)

But I didn't have any flavoring packets in my kit.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 11, 2016)

Just finished topping up the carboy. Oh, my.... What an experience. I bought a bottle of Clos du Bois Cab Sauv on the way home tonight to top up with. Good thought. It took all of it and a whole 750 of a cab franc I had around and even a half of a sweet red we still had to fill to the top. Not much space for oxygen now - maybe an inch, inch and a half below the stopper.


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## Johnd (Feb 11, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Just finished topping up the carboy. Oh, my.... What an experience. I bought a bottle of Clos du Bois Cab Sauv on the way home tonight to top up with. Good thought. It took all of it and a whole 750 of a cab franc I had around and even a half of a sweet red we still had to fill to the top. Not much space for oxygen now - maybe an inch, inch and a half below the stopper.



Sounds like you're good, now it's time to be patient and let gravity do its thing.


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## PostToastee (Feb 14, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> But I didn't have any flavoring packets in my kit.



The Cab you're doing wouldn't have any flavoring packs. You get the bentonite and oak powder for the primary fermenter. Then you're adding the metabisulphite, sorbate and chitosan in the stabilizing and clearing step.

No flavors to this type of kit, unless you count the oak powder.


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## Floandgary (Feb 17, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Interestingly enough, my Winexpert Cab Sauv instructions are pretty clear about not topping up the carboy with water or wine. (See pic below. I dont' think I have an F-pack kit).
> 
> Just curious; why do they not recommend topping up? Doesn't that extra space (air) run the risk of CO2?



FROM WINEMAKERS ACADAMY -- TOPPING UP http://winemakersacademy.com/


Ideally when you make your wine you would have some in reserve to top up with. Wineries will often have a barrel or two to be used just for topping up. They take wine from these barrels to make sure their other barrels are kept full.
Topping up all the way is the key to reducing oxygen exposure.
If you don’t have any wine set aside for this purpose the next best thing to top up with is another finished wine. Pick out a similar wine from the store and use that. It’s best to match flavor and sweetness as best you can but in the end it isn’t going to have a huge impact on your wine’s flavor because you’re not adding all that much.

Lastly there’s water. This used to be standard practice when making wine from kits. Manufacturers designed their kits to be topped up with water so that the final product would be at the appropriate concentration.* However, Winexpert has recently changed their kit instructions and omitted the part about topping up with water.*
Professional winemakers are actually limited on how much or even if they can add water to their wines legally. Generally speaking topping up with water just isn’t a good idea. Find a compatible wine and use that instead. You’ll have a better bottle of wine in the end if you do.


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## ibglowin (Feb 17, 2016)

WineExpert also asumes you will be bottling this ASAP (6 weeks) so not really enough time to do major damage to a wine with limited headspace.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 24, 2016)

Thanks for all the good input re topping up, all. 

The local winemaking/beer brewing supply store recommended I let it bulk age/fine further in the carboy for another week. So I'm planning on bottling Sunday.

I think it's almost ready. There's a very pronounced sediment layer in the bottom. (See picture) What do you think?


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## David219 (Feb 24, 2016)

I would not bottle from that carboy. I would rack it again and let it further settle for a while. You're likely to get a lot of that sediment in your bottles if you bottle from there.


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## David219 (Feb 24, 2016)

WE kit instructions usually recommend a racking from the primary fermentation vessel at SH 1.010. Degassing, stabilizing, and clearing are accomplished in the secondary carboy, without racking. Usually they recommend racking off the sediment after 8 days (I now ALWAYS wait longer, but that's what the instructions say).
I don't know if I've ever had that much sediment after that second racking and waiting the prescribed 14 days in the instructions. Is that photo of the carboy after the second racking? It almost looks like the way the secondary carboy looks after the stabilizing and clearing step...


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## Fedoradude (Feb 24, 2016)

David219 said:


> I don't know if I've ever had that much sediment after that second racking and waiting the prescribed 14 days in the instructions. Is that photo of the carboy after the second racking? It almost looks like the way the secondary carboy looks after the stabilizing and clearing step...



Yep.It's the stabilizing and fining step.


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## David219 (Feb 24, 2016)

I would rack it again and wait a while. You'll likely get some of that sediment in your bottles if you bottle from there.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 24, 2016)

David219 said:


> I would not bottle from that carboy. I would rack it again and let it further settle for a while. You're likely to get a lot of that sediment in your bottles if you bottle from there.



Well, I could do that, I guess. I could rack it back into the primary fermenter bucket, I suppose. Then wash the gunk outta the carboy, resterilize and rack it back into the carboy for awhile. How long you suppose I should let it stay back in there after racking?


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 24, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Well, I could do that, I guess. I could rack it back into the primary fermenter bucket, I suppose. Then wash the gunk outta the carboy, resterilize and rack it back into the carboy for awhile. How long you suppose I should let it stay back in there after racking?



Until you do not have any more sediment - otherwise it will end up in your bottles rather than your carboy


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## David219 (Feb 25, 2016)

+1 to what Steve just said. Getting it off that sediment will lead to clearer wine in the bottle. I don't know your exact timeline, but waiting longer will also help the wine naturally de-gas. Bottling when the instructions say you can has ALWAYS led to gassy wine in the bottle, for me. No matter how much and at what temperature I beat the dickens out of it when I de-gassed. Time in a topped up carboy is your friend. Make sure to add the additional 1/4 tsp of KMeta the instructions advise to add at the racking and clarification stage (usually printed in color in the 4th step of the instructions). Good luck!


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## Fedoradude (Mar 7, 2016)

Hmmm. Have their been some posts deleted? Could've sworn there was one or two pointing out that many rookies like me mistakenly don't stir back in the sediment at the first racking (which I didn't). 

So, my question is; since I didn't do that - and I've got a well-defined 2nd layer of sediment on the bottom of the carboy after the 2nd racking, is the wine batch ruined or is it still turning into an alcohol product? If figured I'd let it sit another week or so in the carboy and either:
*stir it like hell and let it sit some more, or
* go ahead and rack it one more time then bottle it from that racked batch.


What ya'll think?


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## David219 (Mar 7, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Well, I could do that, I guess. I could rack it back into the primary fermenter bucket, I suppose. Then wash the gunk outta the carboy, resterilize and rack it back into the carboy for awhile. How long you suppose I should let it stay back in there after racking?




I don't believe your wine is ruined. From your previous posts, I assume you don't (yet!) have a second 6 gallon carboy. I would do what you posted in the above referenced quote.
The minimum I would let it sit would be for 14 days...that is generally the length of time WE kits recommend be allowed for final clarification (read the section number 4 in your instructions). There is also a note (usually typed in brown rather than black ink) about an additional addition of 1/4 tsp of KMeta if you plan on aging the wine greater than 6 months.
If you have done this already and you still have thick sediment, I would rack it again. Does this help?


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## Tnuscan (Mar 8, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Hmmm. Have their been some posts deleted? Could've sworn there was one or two pointing out that many rookies like me mistakenly don't stir back in the sediment at the first racking (which I didn't).
> 
> So, my question is; since I didn't do that - and I've got a well-defined 2nd layer of sediment on the bottom of the carboy after the 2nd racking, is the wine batch ruined or is it still turning into an alcohol product? If figured I'd let it sit another week or so in the carboy and either:
> *stir it like hell and let it sit some more, or
> ...



I( Tnuscan)= Tennessean deleted my post on Wine Expert cab. sav. kit. I was going by what they say in their instructions. This is the only wine kit I can get locally. I am in no way a professional wine maker, I was trying to help out and thought I might be confusing someone, So I deleted my post. I realized I'm not one to give advice. I will back out and let those that are able to lead do so I try and follow instructions and meant no harm. If I've done you harm forgive me me. I wish you and everyone on this forum the best in wines!!


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## Fedoradude (Mar 8, 2016)

David219 said:


> I don't believe your wine is ruined. From your previous posts, I assume you don't (yet!) have a second 6 gallon carboy. I would do what you posted in the above referenced quote.
> The minimum I would let it sit would be for 14 days...that is generally the length of time WE kits recommend be allowed for final clarification (read the section number 4 in your instructions). There is also a note (usually typed in brown rather than black ink) about an additional addition of 1/4 tsp of KMeta if you plan on aging the wine greater than 6 months.
> If you have done this already and you still have thick sediment, I would rack it again. Does this help?



Yes, it does. Thanks. Believe I'll thief some out and try to stir like crazy and mix the recent sediment layer again. Let sit for 14 days, rack and bottle.


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## David219 (Mar 8, 2016)

I wouldn't stir it back up into suspension again. Just rack it off the gross lees, trying to leave as much behind as you can, and let it sit again. 
I don't see any benefit to stirring again...assuming you have already stirred it a couple times during the degassing stage. Further stirring will just expose the wine to more oxygen at this point, which is not good.


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## Fedoradude (Mar 8, 2016)

David219 said:


> I wouldn't stir it back up into suspension again. Just rack it off the gross lees, trying to leave as much behind as you can, and let it sit again.
> I don't see any benefit to stirring again...assuming you have already stirred it a couple times during the degassing stage. Further stirring will just expose the wine to more oxygen at this point, which is not good.



OK. I can do that. Just rack and let sit. Would you recommend putting in some of that shellfish based fining stuff when it goes back in or just put it in the carboy and let it sit?


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## David219 (Mar 8, 2016)

I would just let it sit. I add the extra KMeta advised for longer term aging, top up the carboy with a similar style wine, and let it rest for at least a couple months. 
It will clear and naturally de-gas during this time. If some sediment drops out, I would gently rack it off that again, let it sit for a few days, a week, then bottle.


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## Fedoradude (Mar 8, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I( Tnuscan)= Tennessean deleted my post on Wine Expert cab. sav. kit.



not sure what you're referring to but you haven't done me any harm. These forums are for sharing experiences, opinions and ideas. And i'm such a newbie I need all the help I can garner.

Speaking of, how do you delete your posts? I looked round for a delete option once and couldn't find any. The board moderator said we couldn't because they want other newbies to come in later and be able to gain from our past questions, etc.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 8, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> not sure what you're referring to but you haven't done me any harm. These forums are for sharing experiences, opinions and ideas. And i'm such a newbie I need all the help I can garner.
> 
> Speaking of, how do you delete your posts? I looked round for a delete option once and couldn't find any. The board moderator said we couldn't because they want other newbies to come in later and be able to gain from our past questions, etc.



I shouldn't have erased it but I edit and proof read and sometimes confuse myself. I tried to use capital letters on words I was wanting someone not to miss. My wife said capitals in the sentence looked like your yelling. I was trying to fix it and just keep messing it up.Just decided, heck I'm better off just reading and not typing. It took me over 10 minutes to type this. lol
I use the edit button and delete. A few friends have told me they became confused at the area of stabilizing, on rack or not rack.


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## Fedoradude (Mar 14, 2016)

David219 said:


> I don't believe your wine is ruined. From your previous posts, I assume you don't (yet!) have a second 6 gallon carboy. I would do what you posted in the above referenced quote.
> The minimum I would let it sit would be for 14 days...that is generally the length of time WE kits recommend be allowed for final clarification (read the section number 4 in your instructions). There is also a note (usually typed in brown rather than black ink) about an additional addition of 1/4 tsp of KMeta if you plan on aging the wine greater than 6 months.
> If you have done this already and you still have thick sediment, I would rack it again. Does this help?



OK, I racked it again tonight. Will let it sit another 14 days then hopefully bottle. Here's the hydrometer reading:


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## Fedoradude (Mar 14, 2016)

I'll be switched if I know why that pic rotated 90 degrees on posting....


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2016)

Are you still in a open pail or bucket?

EDIT: Ok I reread and figured you racked from carboy to bucket, took your reading, then guessing you racked back to carboy and are under airlock.


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## Fedoradude (Mar 14, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Are you still in a open pail or bucket?



Nope. It's back in the carboy.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Nope. It's back in the carboy.



Looked like it is clearing, what do you think?


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## Fedoradude (Mar 14, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Looked like it is clearing, what do you think?



I thought so too.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> I thought so too.



What you planning for next wine?


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## Fedoradude (Mar 14, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> What you planning for next wine?



I don't know.... I'm torn between trying another cab to see if i can refine my processes or branch out and try a Reisling...


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## Tnuscan (Mar 14, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> I don't know.... I'm torn between trying another cab to see if i can refine my processes or branch out and try a Reisling...



I've made several of these kits from WE. The post I deleted I was trying to emphasize the stirring up of the lees. This is a battonage if you will, in a small way. No one has caught it though, so I thought I'd better not get into a debate. Making wine is fun, kits are different, so are opinions. This is a good place to learn.


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## jgmann67 (Mar 16, 2016)

In winemaking, opinions are like a$$#0£%s and elbows, everyone has one or two. Sharing them is what helps others... Deciding between the wheat and the chaff is what makes you a better winemaker. 

The beginning stages of kit wine making are all about fermenting your wine to a desired final gravity (FG) which is different whether you're after a dry, off-dry, semi sweet or sweet wine. 

While you probably won't do yourself any harm going until the end of the prescribed days before moving to the next step in the process, your hydrometer is what really dictates whether it's time to move on. 

In your primary bucket - stirring (or punching down) daily is good thing. It helps with the extraction of flavor from your grape pack (typical in better quality red kits) and keeps your skins and oaks from drying out and leaving a bitter taste behind. 

When you move from bucket to carboy for the first time, it's because you're approaching your desired FG. Your wine is giving off less CO2, so it doesn't have the same layer of protection to keep it from oxidation in a big bucket. 

Once you're done fermenting, the process is about clearing and finishing your wine. You do that by adding the remaining oaks (or tannins), dosing your wine with stabilizers (this is where all that stirring comes in) and most importantly separating your wine from the junk. 

That means that CO2 goes up and out of your bubbler, while finer lees settles to the bottom. You rack your wine so that when it's time to bottle, your wine is perfectly clear and is no longer dropping junk or burping gas. 

You have two powerful allies on your side - time and temperature. 

You can follow the directions to a tee and transfer at the prescribed times. But once you get to the bottling step, only you know whether it's actually time to move. Is it sufficiently degassed? Is it perfectly clear? Does it taste anything like the wine you want? if the answer to any of those questions is "no," then you shouldn't bottle. Wait a while. Seek advice. Consider your options. 

The three hardest words for a winemaker to say - I can wait.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 16, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> I don't know.... I'm torn between trying another cab to see if i can refine my processes or branch out and try a Reisling...



Just curious, will you be following the instructions, or will you do the kit differently at certain steps?


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## Fedoradude (Mar 16, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Just curious, will you be following the instructions, or will you do the kit differently at certain steps?



No matter which way I go, I hope to do a better job of reading/following the directions next time round. I kind of missed that stirring the lees back in after the first racking this batch.

On another note, after Monday's racking, I've already got another thinner, duller sediment layer in the bottom of the carboy.

So...to rack again in a couple weeks or just bottle it then. Decisions, decisions.

BTW, to the poster who mentioned how many varying opinions there are on this stuff; I'm very appreciative of that. Really helps me get a deeper understanding of what can be done at each of these steps.

And I must compliment this forum and its members. I have yet to have anyone post anything rude, condescending etc in response to some really basic questions. A very pleasant experience compared to some other non-wine-related forums I've been on.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 16, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> No matter which way I go, I hope to do a better job of reading/following the directions next time round. I kind of missed that stirring the lees back in after the first racking this batch.
> 
> On another note, after Monday's racking, I've already got another thinner, duller sediment layer in the bottom of the carboy.
> 
> ...



Well to be honest, I know several that have gotten confused with the instructions. I am one of them, and it is a bummer when it happens. Seems like every batch, I wonder what I could have done different. I have the Cab. Sauv. in bulk age right now. I follow instructions, but am thinking of doing the same one and not using some of the packets and seeing what the different outcome will be. Keep reading, read older threads when you can, and soak it all in. Have a problem, hit the forum. Maybe some have different ideas, and opinions, they all seem to work. If you want to let it clear more go for it. It always seems to drop sediment every time. Have fun.


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## Tnuscan (Mar 20, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I've made several of these kits from WE. The post I deleted I was trying to emphasize the stirring up of the lees. This is a battonage if you will, in a small way. No one has caught it though, so I thought I'd better not get into a debate. Making wine is fun, kits are different, so are opinions. This is a good place to learn.



I usually edit to make statements more clear, this time I am trying it this way so you will see it as I try and make it more easy to understand. (I hope). I am not stating this is Battonage but a small similarity. The reason for bentonite and first racking is a clearing step, then at the stirring up of the sediment ,then adding#3 and#4 packets to stabilize, and the last one the #5 Chitosan you are doing another clearing step. Its still a two step process, it's just done at different stages. Hope I haven't confused you.


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