# Welches (I tried, but...)



## Elmer (Aug 22, 2014)

So I made a 1 gallon batch of welches back in May, cleared, added 1/4 oz of dark American oak, back sweetened (to semi sweet), bottled. 
I tired a bottle in July, did not like it.
Tried another last night, never made it past a second sip.
It is not that is was undrinkable, it was just that it is Concord grape.
I grew up drinking Manischewitz and welches tastes like a poor substitute.

So I gave my last few bottles to a friend who has started her own journey of wine making (oddly enough her 1st batch is welches).

But I just wanted I document that I tried it and have it my best go, but it just was not for me!



Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Kraffty (Aug 22, 2014)

John will be glad to have won one over. I have to say I have a batch of red made from my backyard table grapes. I added just one can of welches concentrate along with sugar getting the SG up. It's been over a year and that Welches flavor is still there.
Might have to dump this one.
Mike


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## JohnT (Aug 22, 2014)

you know i cant keep quiet here.

i have mixed feelings.. i feel bad about it not working out for you, but it all comes down to ingredients....


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## the_rayway (Aug 22, 2014)

I think that 'welches' has its place: as sangria 
Really sweet or in sangria are the only way I can drink it.


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## Julie (Aug 22, 2014)

Seriously Elmer, you tried it at one month and then at two months????????? I do not know of any wine that is going to taste good in that short of time.


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## dralarms (Aug 22, 2014)

I won't even try my concord until 10 to 12 months. The white I might try at 6.


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## Elmer (Aug 22, 2014)

Julie said:


> Seriously Elmer, you tried it at one month and then at two months????????? I do not know of any wine that is going to taste good in that short of time.




Even at 1 or 2 months, there was a taste that screamed "Concord"!!! And no amount of aging was going to turn it into a something that would drink over any of my big reds.

Like I said in the OP, I grew up on concord, I guess I should have known better.

But I tried!


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## Julie (Aug 22, 2014)

First off, Concord is an easy drinker, it is not a Big Red. Why would you compare it to that? And if you do not like concord wine why did you make some and then complain about it?


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## Elmer (Aug 22, 2014)

Julie said:


> First off, Concord is an easy drinker, it is not a Big Red. Why would you compare it to that? And if you do not like concord wine why did you make some and then complain about it?




I am not comparing one to the other, I am simply saying that under no circumstance would I open a bottle of welches instead of a big red.
If it was a hot day I would go with SP or a beer!

I like Concord grape, but as grape juice.
My problem with manischewitz was always it was either too sweet or dry. I was using this as an opportunity to make something in-between.
But alas it was simply not for me.

I also made it, because I believe you try everything once!
And my complaint was not as much a complaint against welches as it was an effort to dispel the myth found in another thread, where I was called a snob.

Like I said, I tried it. Not for me.
But I also like dipping Oreos in Guinness!
Not everything is for everyone!



Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Julie (Aug 23, 2014)

thank you, that explanation makes more sense.


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## Rocky (Aug 23, 2014)

I guess it is time I come clean on this, too. I made one batch of Concord (and one batch of Skeeter Pee, for that matter) a while back. Neither was horrible and neither will I ever try again. I did ferment the Concord to dry and bulk aged it with oak. I believe I back sweetened it with simple syrup to about SG 1.000. I also added about 5 pounds of frozen mixed berries (blueberry, red raspberry and black berry) in the primary fermenter. That ameliorated the heavy Concord taste quite a bit. I think I made about 30 bottles and there may be 5 or 6 left in the cellar. It is not bad on an afternoon to sip without food. The Skeeter Pee was from "Real Lemon" lemon juice. It was a nice summer cooler served over ice.

As Elmer said, it was educational and instructive to try it once and that was enough for me in both cases.


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## dralarms (Aug 23, 2014)

Need to stop oaking concord and try it.


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## JohnT (Aug 23, 2014)

Hmmmm. Oreoes inGuinness..... have you ever tried dipping a roastedmarshmallow in Bailey's?? Yum!


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## Elmer (Aug 23, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Hmmmm. Oreoes inGuinness..... have you ever tried dipping a roastedmarshmallow in Bailey's?? Yum!




Nope, but I did my wife read some recipe, from a food magazine that called for - roastin. A marshmallow, hallow out a portion of center and add a shot of khalua.

This was a horrific disaster. Kahulua did nothing but squirt to the back of your throat when you chomped on the marshmallow.
And the 2 flavors did not mix well.
My wife, myself and 2 neighbors all tried and agreed it was a failure.

I will give baileys a try!


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## jethro (Aug 23, 2014)

I don't remember ever drinking Manischewitz. However, I made two 1-gal. batches of wine from two different flavors of Welch's grape juice a year ago, and fermented them to dry. Last time I tried them, this summer, they tasted more like wine and less like must, so they ought to be good to drink in a month or so. At least I hope so.


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## WellingtonToad (Mar 13, 2015)

Thought I would give this one a bump.

Ok, I'm an Aussie. We don't have Welch's over here...
Or so I thought, until I found a shop(USA foods in Moorabin). I found some Welch's Juice and got excited.
I don't know why. I don't know how you guys can drink that stuff. Yuk!!!

A bit like giving Vegemite (a yeast extract) to a "Yank" I guess. You have to grow up with it.


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## joeswine (Mar 13, 2015)

*none wines???*

I'm all for experimentation but Welch's???I'll just read about it.


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## JohnT (Mar 16, 2015)

WellingtonToad said:


> Thought I would give this one a bump.
> 
> Ok, I'm an Aussie. We don't have Welch's over here...
> Or so I thought, until I found a shop(USA foods in Moorabin). I found some Welch's Juice and got excited.
> ...


 
You're preaching to the choir mate! 

Welch's is made from the native American concord grape which has not had the benefit of all of those centuries of cultivation that European wine grapes have been given. The concord grape was first cultivated in the mid 19th century in New England (an area of the country that is cold, wet and not favorable to viniculture) from a mix of native American grapes that could stand the harsh conditions. 

Concord really should be considered as table grapes since the typical range of Brix is between 14 and 17 and as a native American grape, the flavor (IMHO) has a lot left to be desired! Today, the largest portion of Concord grapes grown is turned into grape jelly to be used as a compliment to peanut butter on a white bread sandwich. 

Welches grape juice was originally designed as a non-alcoholic alternative to wine (remember that this is America, land of prohibition) and was not ever meant to be fermented. Between cooking the grapes (yes they cook the grapes) and the additives they use, Welch's takes steps to prevent fermentation.

Please, as a son of the land down under, it is your duty to prevent this evil practice of fermenting Welch's from ever spreading to your shores!


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## wineforfun (Mar 16, 2015)

Thank you to all who despise Welchs, it leaves that much more for us who love it.


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## ke3ju (Mar 16, 2015)

I love the wine that I get from Welch's Concord Red and the Niagara White. It's a matter of taste. I love Finger Lakes' Wines and hate CA wines. So there ya go.


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## bsassy2 (Mar 16, 2015)

Some of our favorite wines have been made from concord grapes.


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## dralarms (Mar 16, 2015)

Say what you must (Johnt) but we know the truth.  welches is not (of course) the best wine ingredient our there but those of us that have figured out how to make a mighty tasty wine really enjoy it.

One of the best (local) wines around here was made by Strikers Premium Winery, could not keep the stuff on the shelf, and when he shut down he gave me his recipe and it turns out that it was a concord wine. Maybe not made with welches but was the same breed and pedigree, and I have personally spent many hour experimenting to figure out just what made his so good. I will say that mine now is very close to his and anyone who used to drink his and have tasted mine say it is very similar and very good.

That being said, my apple wine is (as a very good friend said) "off the hook"


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## JohnT (Mar 17, 2015)

Sorry Dr, and you are right. It is a matter of taste and I am not saying that my taste is any better than yours... 

That being said, I was addressing a man from Australia. His country has a fine tradition of making wines and many are considered world class and I am rather sure that this man has never tasted concord grapes. With all of the talk about Welch's, I simply wanted to be realistic. You simply can not make a world class wine (like a cabernet or merlot) out of Welch's grape juice. The most you can hope for, with effort, is a good concord wine. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with liking a good concord wine. If that is your expectation and goal, all is good. 

All I was trying to do is set the right expectation for anyone that has never tasted concord wine. I hope no one takes any offense.


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## dralarms (Mar 17, 2015)

Oh John, you know part of my comment is picking on you about Welches. And yes I agree it's not a "world class" wine.


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## wineforfun (Mar 17, 2015)

That brings up an interesting thought. 
"World Class"
Who says what is World Class and what isn't? Maybe concord wine is World Class and the merlots, cabs, etc. are of lesser quality.
Someone, someday, somewhere made the decision that one was better than the other................in their opinion.

It is like with most things in life, we have been "trained" to believe certain things are "better" than others.


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## ceeaton (Mar 17, 2015)

In my book "Wife likes it" equals "World Class". Using cheap ingredients to make drinkable wine has exceeded my expectations, so I consider it World Class wine.


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## JohnT (Mar 17, 2015)

One point I'll make is this.... 

Concord grapes were developed only 150 years ago and mostly for it's ability to grow in the northeast climate and terrior. The difficulty was finding a grape that could do this but yet still have a taste that was bearable. Its foxy taste is a mile away and distinctive from that of world class European grapes.


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## wineforfun (Mar 17, 2015)

JohnT said:


> Its foxy taste is a mile away and distinctive from that of world class European grapes.



Again, that is one opinion. There may be others that view the European grapes not as inviting as the Concord.

It is all relative to what your likes and dislikes are. Just because so and so states that "xyz" is the best or most sophisticated, doesn't make it so. That is their opinion.
It would be similar to stating that a gourmet burger has much more depth and character than a plain old grilled burger made at home. For me, and I only speak for myself, I will take the homemade burger anyday, yet, the "viewpoint" is that it isn't supposed to be as good.

Just my .02............ok, maybe .10.


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## JohnT (Mar 17, 2015)

I hear you. What I mean by "world class" is "grapes used around the world". Concord does not fit into this category.


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## wineforfun (Mar 17, 2015)

JohnT said:


> What I mean by "world class" is "grapes used around the world".



Now that makes perfect sense.


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## wineinmd (Mar 17, 2015)

That's a different use of the term than I've ever heard. Generally a term preceding "class" indicates its quality, and not its usage or availability. 1st class cabin, 2nd class citizen, etc., with the general understanding that world class is the best of the best. Just about every definition I've found is similar to the one given by Merriam-Webster, which says "being of the highest caliber in the world."

I wonder what class Concord grapes are. American class?


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## JohnT (Mar 18, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> That's a different use of the term than I've ever heard. Generally a term preceding "class" indicates its quality, and not its usage or availability. 1st class cabin, 2nd class citizen, etc., with the general understanding that world class is the best of the best. Just about every definition I've found is similar to the one given by Merriam-Webster, which says "being of the highest caliber in the world."
> 
> I wonder what class Concord grapes are. American class?


 

Ok, so you caught me. Man, just try to save some feelings around here and you get pounced on.


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## wineinmd (Mar 18, 2015)

I wasn't trying to pounce on anyone. It's OK to have strong feelings on a topic and share those feelings, as long as they are presented in a civil manner, which I've always seen here. There's no need to backtrack when handled that way. If everyone agreed all the time, things would be pretty dull.

Own those differences in opinion!


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## wpt-me (Mar 18, 2015)

I just bottled 1 1/2 gal of the white grape/peach and thought 
it was quite tasty at 5 months old.

Bill


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## joeswine (Mar 18, 2015)

*world class????*

just my thoughts, world class is a broad statement in most cases, but as far as wine definitions go the main adjective is to describe most all northern grape varieties as{FOXY} and not much more, you usually don't equate them with the general descriptive of let say a *merlot* or a *cab*, do you? I think that's more on the line of what* JOHNT* was stating .


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## CoastalCowboy (Apr 21, 2015)

Welches has three characteristics that make it a great base for a noob like me: 1) it's cheap 2) it's readily available and 3) it's consistent.


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## JohnT (Apr 21, 2015)

CoastalCowboy said:


> Welches has three characteristics that make it a great base for a noob like me: 1) it's cheap 2) it's readily available and 3) it's consistent.


 

So is koolaid and vodka.


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## CoastalCowboy (Apr 22, 2015)

Then again koolaid and vodka isn't wine is it?


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## JohnT (Apr 23, 2015)

CoastalCowboy said:


> Then again koolaid and vodka isn't wine is it?


 

If I were a mean person, I would say something like "Some can argue that neither is Welch's". But, I am not a mean person so I will not say that.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 23, 2015)

JohnT said:


> If I were a mean person, I would say something like "Some can argue that neither is Welch's". But, I am not a mean person so I will not say that.



I gave this a "like" if only to salute the proper use of the subjunctive mood!


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## JohnT (Apr 23, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I gave this a "like" if only to salute the proper use of the subjunctive mood!


 
For a moment, I thought that I might be winning you over to my side.....


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## sour_grapes (Apr 23, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I gave this a "like" *if only* to salute the proper use of the subjunctive mood! (Emphasis added)





JohnT said:


> For a moment, I thought that I might be winning you over to my side.....



John, note that my sentence is not inconsistent with my being on your side. (If I had said "only to salute," that would have been a different matter.)

I have always leaned in your direction. Remember this:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=481328&postcount=76



> For the record, I have not had Welch's wine yet, so I am not in the pro- or anti- camp yet. However, I recently did have some Concord (or was it Catawba?) wine that I could not finish.


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## JohnT (Apr 23, 2015)

JohnT said:


> *For a moment*, I thought that I might be winning you over to my side.....


 


sour_grapes said:


> John, note that my sentence is not inconsistent with my being on your side. (If I had said "only to salute," that would have been a different matter.)


 
"For a moment".. The time between seeing your "Like" and reading your post...


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## sour_grapes (Apr 23, 2015)

JohnT said:


> "For a moment".. The time between seeing your "Like" and reading your post...



Ahh, I see.

It's a bit ironical that I chose a fox as my avatar. As I have explained, this is from the "Sour Grapes" fable, but one could (incorrectly) interpret this as my favoring wines from _Vitis labrusca_ (fox grape).


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## jswordy (Apr 23, 2015)

I might as well weigh in on this old thread.

Since I am an AMERICAN and descended from the original AMERICANS (before the place even took on that European-origin name), I have decided to make my wines with AMERICAN grapes. That includes concord, scuppernong, muscadine, Norton, mustang, et al. 

European grapes are invasive plants in this country. After much procrastination, I have my last batch of wine with European grape content in the carboys now. I'm all-AMERICAN from here on out.

Obviously, my wines are not "world class," they are inherently inferior and they are sub-standard because they use AMERICAN grapes. I definitely found that out when I entered my AMERICAN wines in coast to coast contests in 2014.





As far as the original, 2014 post about Welch's grape wine, like in all winemaking, it takes an acquired talent to make this wine something that raises the bar. You have to select the correct yeast and learn the process to raise it up. 

I have been sent a few bottles of Welch's wine by WMT members for evaluation (many thanks to you all), and I can assure you what I sampled ain't Mogan David or Manischewitz. We have that talent here. The array of tastes and styles from a lowly can of concord concentrate are amazing.

So, it is like anything else. If you put the time in to climb the learning curve, to innovate and adjust, then you improve. If you spit out your first batch and quit at the beginning, you don't.


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## dralarms (Apr 23, 2015)

Jim, that needs a double like.


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## JohnT (Apr 23, 2015)

jswordy said:


> I might as well weigh in on this old thread.
> 
> Since I am an AMERICAN and descended from the original AMERICANS (before the place even took on that European-origin name), I have decided to make my wines with AMERICAN grapes. That includes concord, scuppernong, muscadine, Norton, mustang, et al.
> 
> ...


 
All kidding aside, the most important thing is that you are satisfied with it! Via Con Dios Jim!!!!

Congrats on all of your awards.


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## Elmer (Apr 23, 2015)

jswordy said:


> I might as well weigh in on this old thread.
> 
> Since I am an AMERICAN and descended from the original AMERICANS (before the place even took on that European-origin name), I have decided to make my wines with AMERICAN grapes. That includes concord, scuppernong, muscadine, Norton, mustang, et al.
> 
> ...


Jim arnt your beers Scottish?

I just want to join in on this American fest!


But I still cant stand Welches!


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## jswordy (Apr 23, 2015)

Elmer said:


> Jim arnt your beers Scottish?
> 
> I just want to join in on this American fest!
> 
> ...



I am primarily a winemaker. I dabble in beer. My beers are of Scottish *style*, yes, as well as AMERICAN (Californian, mostly) and other *styles.*

Of course, I could have just quit after my first brew, since beer does make my joints ache, but I have decided to keep on the learning curve until I get a great beer that doesn't make my joints ache. Because I know you can't improve unless you go through the process of improvement. And I know improving taste is a learned thing.


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2015)

*What do you make???/*

*js*-- you sound alot like me or me you, what it takes is trial and error and the understanding of the whole wine process,it's not how much wine,or wine you can make it's about what quality of wine your making ,no matter what style wine white, red or fruit you use. I have come to believe that i would rather have the* majority* like the taste of my product ,then the old statement "*well that's how i like my wines" you taste it and you know that the taste profile is wrong* ,i know this will upset some but if you can make a wine product it doesn't matter what the base is .*THE AWARDS ARE FROM 2015,MARCH 27TH- NO TO TOOT MY OWN HORN BUT THE WINES WERE A MIX OF FRUIT STYLE,PORT STYLE,RED BLEND AND WHITES.THE BASE IS THE KEY THE PROCESS IS THE MEANS TO GET YOU TO A DECENT FINISHED PRODUCT,WORTHY OF YOUR EFFORTS, NOTHING ELSE IS ACCEPTABLE ,ESPECIALLY TO THE WINEMAKERS ON THIS FORUM ,AND I HAVE TASTED ALMOST EVERYONES WINE AT ON TIME OR ANOTHER ,IN THE LAST 8 YEARS..*


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## sour_grapes (Apr 23, 2015)

Of course, barley and _H. sapiens_ are invasive species in the Americas, too.


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## Elmer (Apr 23, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> Of course, barley and _H. sapiens_ are invasive species in the Americas, too.



So are horses!


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## sour_grapes (Apr 23, 2015)

Elmer said:


> So are horses!



Well, yes and no. The history of horse evolution is fascinating. I may have some of this wrong, and in the below I use the term "horse" loosely, but I believe it goes like this:

-the ancestor of horses _originated_ in North America.
-they evolved and spread to Europe and Asia.
-these horses went extinct everywhere except North America.
-these evolved further, and then spread to South America, and (again) to Europe, Africa, and Asia.
-they then went extinct in the Americas. This _may_ be because the first humans in North America (an invasive species) hunted them to extinction (although this is not certain). They remained in Asia, Africa, and Europe.
-Europeans once again introduced them to North America.

So, hard to categorically call them "invasive," huh?


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2015)

*Horses*

SOUR GRAPES IS CORRECT.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 23, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> Well, yes and no. The history of horse evolution is fascinating.
> 
> blah blah blah
> 
> So, hard to categorically call them "invasive," huh?



I wish that I had summarized the timeline in my original post:

-From 55,000,000 years ago until 12,500 years ago: There were horses (or their ancestors) in North America

-From 12,500 years ago until 500 years ago: No horses in North America

-From 500 years ago until now: Horses in North America

Except for one 12,000 year period out of the last 55,000,000, there were horses here. Seems a bit harsh to call them invasive!


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## JohnT (Apr 24, 2015)

I find it inspiring that folks are not afraid to love America. We live in a day and age where some feel that they have to apologize for it. I love this country the way that only a first generation son can. 

That being said, let's not forget the real strength of this great country, the fact that America is a melting pot. There are amazingly few aspects of American life that have not originated in other countries or have been influenced by other cultures. Really, think about it... 

When it comes to food products, what is purely American? Corn perhaps? Venison?

Take the iconic apple pie for example. That American classic is made from apples (originally from central Asia), Wheat Flour (originated in the near east 10,000 years ago), butter from domesticated cows (that originated in either the fertile crescent or Asia around 5,000 bc), and sugar (that originated in Polynesia and migrated to the Americas through India). Not one ingredient in standard Apple pie is uniquely American. 

Not wanting to go on and on, My point is that this country is great because of our ability to embrace being a melting pot. Even our constitution, that definitively American set of common principles and the foundation of our country, was drafted using the ancient Roman republic (the most successful form of government known at the time) as a guideline. 

Should one extend the thought and avoid eating bread, pork, beef, chicken, lamb, butter, eggs, milk, tea, coffee, or sugar? I ask, isn't it more AMERICAN to prefer European grapes that have been grafted onto AMERICAN root stock, and grown in AMERICAN soil by AMERICAN farmers? 


_Jim, I sure hope you take no offense with the above. I debated posting it and really do not want to offend you. I really do respect what you are doing._


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## Elmer (Apr 24, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I wish that I had summarized the timeline in my original post:
> 
> -From 55,000,000 years ago until 12,500 years ago: There were horses (or their ancestors) in North America
> 
> ...



I would disagree. If a animal goes extinct on a land mass, as horses did, This is a sign that they were not meant to survive geologically or environmentally in this area.
The reintroduction of horses to North America is basically upsetting the natural course of events, (that is if you are of the belief that there is a predetermined "natural course" of events).

But then again my planting grapes and hops in my yard could be considered "invasive", I mean neither was there naturally and will continue to grow and spread.



JohnT said:


> When it comes to food products, what is purely American? Corn perhaps? Venison?



Maybe a BBQ chicken wing!
or 
Corn Dog!!!! (i know hot dogs are derived from sausages, which is a frank, which is german. But did they wrap it in corn breading and put it on a stick!!!!!)
'MERICA!!!!!

but I digress!


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## JohnT (Apr 24, 2015)

Elmer.. 

Yes, the hot dog is just a German type of sausage (the frankfurter was even named after the German city of Frankfurt) and are made from animals not native to America (beef and/or pork). The batter does contain corn, but also contains chicken eggs, cow's milk, and wheat flour (all non native). 

As far as the wings, chickens are also not native, nor is most of the ingredients in the BBQ sauce. 

Both dishes are American. We did what Americans do best. We took aspects of other cultures and blended them together..


_"You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile"_


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## sour_grapes (Apr 24, 2015)

Elmer said:


> I would disagree. If a animal goes extinct on a land mass, as horses did, This is a sign that they were not meant to survive geologically or environmentally in this area.



What if the extinction was caused by the introduction of a non-native species that outcompeted it?


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## Elmer (Apr 24, 2015)

JohnT said:


> Elmer..
> 
> Yes, the hot dog is just a German type of sausage (the frankfurter was even named after the German city of Frankfurt) and are made from animals not native to America (beef and/or pork). The batter does contain corn, but also contains chicken eggs, cow's milk, and wheat flour (all non native).
> 
> ...



I think that is what "America" does best. We take French Toast and make it ours.
We take Chinese food and make it greasy and accessible in "10 minutes".
We have Americanized Pizza, hot dogs and tacos!
About the only true american invention is Blues & Jazz!
We are a melting pot and that is what is great! 



sour_grapes said:


> What if the extinction was caused by the introduction of a non-native species that outcompeted it?


Still wasnt meant to be, they failed to adapt or survive!
All part of natural selection. I have read my Darwin!


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## jswordy (Apr 24, 2015)

JohnT said:


> I find it inspiring that folks are not afraid to love America. We live in a day and age where some feel that they have to apologize for it. I love this country the way that only a first generation son can.
> 
> That being said, let's not forget the real strength of this great country, the fact that America is a melting pot. There are amazingly few aspects of American life that have not originated in other countries or have been influenced by other cultures. Really, think about it...
> 
> ...



With all due respect, JohnT, no you don't respect it. Let's be honest about it. I am an inferior winemaker in your eyes because of the ingredients I use. I'm good with that.


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## JohnT (Apr 24, 2015)

jswordy said:


> With all due respect, JohnT, no you don't respect it. Let's be honest about it. I am an inferior winemaker in your eyes because of the ingredients I use. I'm good with that.


 

To be honest, I do not think you an inferior winemaker. 

In my opinion, (and it is just that, my opinion) the grapes are inferior to what I look for in a wine. 

I do respect your attempts to make an inferior ingredient (again my opinion as a wine snob) work.


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## Elmer (Apr 24, 2015)

Some people think Ballast Point Sculpin is the best
Some people think Bud is the king of Beers!
Some think that CHÂTEAU LAFITE, 1787 ($156,450 per bottle) if good,
Some think that Riunite is the best ever!!!

It is all subjective!


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## mwulf67 (Apr 24, 2015)

As a noob, I want to thank all you old-timers for keeping this complete and utterly useless train wreck of thread alive and well, and at the top of the beginners forum for so long….good job everyone! 

I kid, I kid, but seriously this thread really needs to die a merciful death…


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## Elmer (Apr 24, 2015)

mwulf67 said:


> As a noob, I want to thank all you old-timers for keeping this complete and utterly useless train wreck of thread alive and well, and at the top of the beginners forum for so long….good job everyone!
> 
> I kid, I kid, but seriously this thread really needs to die a merciful death…



Whoa.....Whoa....Whoa!!!!!
Who are you calling an old timer????


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## wineforfun (Apr 30, 2015)

Elmer said:


> Some think that CHÂTEAU LAFITE, 1787 ($156,450 per bottle) if good,



But it would appear some really don't know what a 1787 Chateau Lafite actually tastes like..........see Rodenstock.


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## JohnT (May 1, 2015)

lets let this thread die.

this thread has proven too costly to me.

i managed to bother jswordy and i hate myself for it. 

in the spirit of pennance, this is for js...

i like welch's.


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## dralarms (May 1, 2015)

JohnT said:


> lets let this thread die.
> 
> this thread has proven too costly to me.
> 
> ...



Now you gone and done it.


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## Julie (May 1, 2015)

Seriously JohnT, now you have gone and done it! but I must say kudos to you for telling a lie to make another member feel better.


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## JohnT (May 2, 2015)

Julie said:


> Seriously JohnT, now you have gone and done it! but I must say kudos to you for telling a lie to make another member feel better.




i know, julie, i know... but whatever fallout i got coming, i got coming. it is not even close to what i owe for offending js.


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