# MLF questions...



## xAreWhyAyEn (May 27, 2012)

Okay, so ive made 2 batches so far. first was a VR kit (ehh) and second was skeeter pee(Yum)... so now im on my third.

This one is chilean grape juice, pinot noir but i added 2 and a half pomegranates worth of seeds (strainer bag, squeezed in before i pitched the yeast). i was down to 1.002 after 5 days (started at 1.084). I obviously racked into a carboy, 3 days ago. Now this is the first im seeing info about MLF, guess i should have researched more before i started, but yeah. 

1. How drastic of a difference is MLF in a finished product.
2. i still see small bubbles rising, does MLF sometimes start on its own?
3. How do i know if its too late to innoculate to start MLF?
4. Do i have to buy testing equipment to check my ph and acidity to do this?
5. Should i really even worry about inducing MLF at this point??

ANY input would be greatly appreciated as this is the first time im making wine without explicit instructions and i want this batch to suck less than the VR mezza luna rouge i made, it seriously lacked any kind of body or complexity.

Thanks,
Ryan


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## xAreWhyAyEn (May 29, 2012)

anybody? anything?


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## ibglowin (May 29, 2012)

Is this a fresh/frozen chilean must that has not been adjusted like a kit? If so then its OK to MLF. If it has been adjusted then it should not undergo MLF. The small bubbles could be CO2 escaping (degassing on its own) or it could still be finishing out secondary fermentation. You want to add MLB after the wine has finished fermenting (0.998 or less and at the first racking off the gross lees. You really need to know the pH as well as the acid (TA) as some MLB can't tolerate a low pH. If the acid is low to begin with putting the wine through MLF will weaken it further. For a successful MLF you should have some tools like a pH meter and TA test kit. The pH test papers are pretty worthless IMHO as is the MLF test strips. Only a Chromatography Test kit will accurately tell you if MLF is complete. If this is only your 3rd batch I think I would personally skip the MLF until you have the proper tools to analyze the must upfront and a little more experience under your belt. Hope this helps.


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## MalvinaScordaad (May 30, 2012)

If you are dealing with a fresh grapes or juice you can assume the following. First, MLF is not a option. It is a requirement. The reason being is MLF can occur spontaneously at any time including after the wine is bottled, leaving you with a fizzy wine. Second, there is in most cases enough Malic Acid present in Fresh Grapes or Fresh Juice to provide for this spontaneous fermentation and a harshness in the wine you want to eliminate. Third, by inoculating on purpose with ML Bacteria you are getting the process over prior to bottling to avoid the above and remove the harshness. Forth, even if you don't have a PH meter Chilean Grapes are grown in warm climates and your PH will be in a range for the ML Bacteria to work. Fifth, Since these grapes are warm weather grown your Total Acid may be reduced somewhat after the MLF however you can adjust that with Tartaric Acid. Malic Acid is harsh converting it to Lactic Acid softens the wine, adding Tartaric will restore the Total Acid if necessary. Sixth, you do not have to mess with Paper Chromatography you can purchase an Accuvin Test kit for Malic Acid to tell if your MLF is complete. There is no problem with that method of testing. To be exact Paper Chromatography is a Qualitative Test while the Accuvin Test is a Quantitative Test. In truth both should be performed. Seventh, After completion if needed and you find your wine is a bit flabby you can add Tartaric Acid by letting taste be your guide. Just because you are new at this doesn't mean that you should avoid solid wine making practices. Soon enough you will own a PH Meter, etc. But whether you own it or not won't change the need to do a MLF. One other thing to clarify since you are new at this. The Secondary Fermentation is really the MLF. Primary Fermentation is Alcohol Fermentation. Moving a wine out of a container into another is often referred to as a Secondary Fermentation by some. There really is no secondary alcohol fermentation just the completion of the first one in a new container.


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## xAreWhyAyEn (May 30, 2012)

now That is the kind of response i was looking for. i completely follow. now on to the problem that lies in this. I sulphated the batch with 1/4 tsp because while waiting for the response i was getting nervous about spoilage. i also did some light degassing to see if after i do so the bubbles stopped.... they seem to be. after sulfating and degassing and being down to about .995sg is it too late to introduce MLB?

oh and thank you thank you thank you. that was a fantastic response.



MalvinaScordaad said:


> If you are dealing with a fresh grapes or juice you can assume the following. First, MLF is not a option. It is a requirement. The reason being is MLF can occur spontaneously at any time including after the wine is bottled, leaving you with a fizzy wine. Second, there is in most cases enough Malic Acid present in Fresh Grapes or Fresh Juice to provide for this spontaneous fermentation and a harshness in the wine you want to eliminate. Third, by inoculating on purpose with ML Bacteria you are getting the process over prior to bottling to avoid the above and remove the harshness. Forth, even if you don't have a PH meter Chilean Grapes are grown in warm climates and your PH will be in a range for the ML Bacteria to work. Fifth, Since these grapes are warm weather grown your Total Acid may be reduced somewhat after the MLF however you can adjust that with Tartaric Acid. Malic Acid is harsh converting it to Lactic Acid softens the wine, adding Tartaric will restore the Total Acid if necessary. Sixth, you do not have to mess with Paper Chromatography you can purchase an Accuvin Test kit for Malic Acid to tell if your MLF is complete. There is no problem with that method of testing. To be exact Paper Chromatography is a Qualitative Test while the Accuvin Test is a Quantitative Test. In truth both should be performed. Seventh, After completion if needed and you find your wine is a bit flabby you can add Tartaric Acid by letting taste be your guide. Just because you are new at this doesn't mean that you should avoid solid wine making practices. Soon enough you will own a PH Meter, etc. But whether you own it or not won't change the need to do a MLF. One other thing to clarify since you are new at this. The Secondary Fermentation is really the MLF. Primary Fermentation is Alcohol Fermentation. Moving a wine out of a container into another is often referred to as a Secondary Fermentation by some. There really is no secondary alcohol fermentation just the completion of the first one in a new container.


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## MalvinaScordaad (May 30, 2012)

Here is what you can *try.* Buy a high so2 tolerant ML bacteria. VP41 would be my choice. Instead of simply using the direct addition method even though that is the kind you want to purchase you have to make a culture as if you would a yeast culture. You will also need some ML Nutrients ie: Acti ML or Opti Malo. Acti Ml you use to rehydrate the bacteria with. Opti Malo you do not. Splash rack a 1/2 gallon of wine a few times to drive off So2. add a 1/4 gallon of distilled water to reduce the total Alcohol level to help the bacteria out and add 1/4 apple juice that has no vitamin c added to increase the malic content of the culture to make the bacteria very happy. Add some opti malo to the culture. Keep the gallon with a loose top warm at 75 for 3 days. Stir once or twice a day. Splash rack the entire batch of wine. Then add the culture to your wine and add the rest of the ML nutrient. Keep the wine at 72 -74 degrees Measure wine temperature not air Temperature. Take an initial Accuvin Reading. Stir the wine 2-3 times a week gently but get to the bottom you only need to stir up the bottom to get it back into solution. Take another Accuvin Test in 4 weeks record any changes. Observe very tiny bubbles in the neck of the carboy you may need a flashlight. Do not expect to see a bubbling airlock. If after 4 weeks you see some results in the Accuvin Reading continue until the wine is still and the malic acid is gone as per the Accuvin. This can take up to 2 months or more. Good Luck!


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## bakervinyard (Dec 26, 2012)

I know this thread is a few months old, however I have a couple of questions of my own. In October I started a MLF on my Merlot juice. I bought the Accuvin test kit and tested a couple of times since then. Question #1, when I do the test what number range on the chart am I looking for to tell me if the MLF is complete ? Question #2, Kept the juice at Mid 70's range however I didn't stir it at all. I wasn't aware I needed to. Did that do any harm to the MLF ? Thanks in advance, Bakervinvard


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## joea132 (Dec 26, 2012)

bakervinyard said:


> I know this thread is a few months old, however I have a couple of questions of my own. In October I started a MLF on my Merlot juice. I bought the Accuvin test kit and tested a couple of times since then. Question #1, when I do the test what number range on the chart am I looking for to tell me if the MLF is complete ? Question #2, Kept the juice at Mid 70's range however I didn't stir it at all. I wasn't aware I needed to. Did that do any harm to the MLF ? Thanks in advance, Bakervinvard



I'm not familiar with Accuvin MLF kit so I can't speak on that issue. I use an MLF bacteria and opti Malo plus as a nutrient. I simply watch for the tiny ring of bubbles around the top edge of the wine in the carboy. They are very small and constant in a good MLF. I usually wait to see when they stop and I'm reasonably assured it has completed so long as it's been a couple of weeks or more. 

As far as stirring goes, it is not necessary but it does help to promote a healthy MLF. It helps stir natural nutrients from the lees into the wine so they can use them to convert your malic acid. I don't usually stir and I've never had an issue. If you don't have a decent ring of bubbles, I would check your temperature and start a series of stirring every 3 days.


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## bakervinyard (Dec 27, 2012)

Thanks, Joe. I'll try that


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