# A Couple Beginner Questions



## justsipn (Apr 27, 2020)

Hello, I'm new to wine making and am enjoying it so far. Haven't been able to try my first batch, so that might change.  

I have a couple quick questions. Just a little back ground. I'm making rhubarb wine. I'm starting with that basically because it's what I have and it sounded fun. I found a recipe and video of it on line. I purchased a fairly nice starter kit and got a few pointers from the place I bought the kit from.

My quick description of my process so far was, cutting up 10 lbs of rhubarb last summer and freezing it. Three weeks ago, I sterilized everything and put the rhubarb, sugar and some raspberries in the bucket and left over night. 24 hours later, I squeezed the juice out of the rhubarb and berries while adding some distilled water. I ended up with about 5 gallons of juice in the carboy. I then added the potassium metabisulfite. About 30 minutes later, I added the yeast and put the airlock on.

Over the next 1.5-2 weeks it percolated like crazy. It has since slowed way down. So, I'm assuming that first 1.5-2 weeks was the first fermentation and now I'm in the second fermentation. So, question:

a) when I squeezed the juice of of the fruit, I got some of the fruit in the carboy. So....when should I rack it to get rid of that?

b) How do I know it's fermenting the way it should? Is there some way of counting the bubbles in the airlock per minute...etc?

This is a little like when your wife is pregnant. You have one heck of a lot of fun causing it, then it's sit back and wait and wondering if everything is going OK.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give. I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 27, 2020)

Do you have a hydrometer? If not, you NEED to acquire one. This will tell you where your wine is in the fermenting process. Bubbles are "for amusement purposes only."


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## justsipn (Apr 27, 2020)

Yes, sorry I meant to include that. When first put the juice in the carboy and added the yeast (April 4th), SG was at 1.092. I have not tested it since.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 27, 2020)

Well, now is the time to test it again. That will tell you how close you are to "the delivery" in your analogy.


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## justsipn (Apr 28, 2020)

OK, I'll test it tonight. It's supposed to get to 1.050, correct? If it's there, I hope I can rack it into my bucket, clean the carboy and then siphon right back into the carboy. Is that basically what's done?


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## Chuck E (Apr 28, 2020)

justsipn said:


> OK, I'll test it tonight. It's supposed to get to 1.050, correct? If it's there, I hope I can rack it into my bucket, clean the carboy and then siphon right back into the carboy. Is that basically what's done?



Most of us do the fermentation in the bucket, then transfer to the carboy. if you ferment in the carboy, a lot of foam & froth can occur. It makes quite a mess to clean up every day.


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## salcoco (Apr 28, 2020)

a finished fermentation should be a specific gravity of 1.00 or less. rack if you have achieved this level. I would recommend the following procedure rack again in three days off of gross lees, add potassium metabisulphite at dosage of 1/4 tsp for 5 gallons. rack again ion three weeks off of fine lees, rack again in three months. wine should clear between three weeks and three months.


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## justsipn (Apr 28, 2020)

I understand my process ended up being different than what I'll probably do next time. But, I already added potassium metabisulphite three weeks ago. You're saying add more?


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## gsf77 (Apr 28, 2020)

I wouldn’t make a practice of fermenting in a carboy. Particles can clog up the air lock and exciting things will happen.., ask me how I know


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## Chuck E (Apr 28, 2020)

justsipn said:


> I understand my process ended up being different than what I'll probably do next time. But, I already added potassium metabisulphite three weeks ago. You're saying add more?



Your process is VERY unusual. I can't help you fix it. I suggest you use a better recipe next time. The one you are using now doesn't make sense.


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## NorCal (Apr 28, 2020)

A few things on potassium metabilsufite (SO2). It is an anti-microbial and an anti-oxidant, so it's purpose is to kill microbes and to help prevent browning and aging of wine due to excessive dissolved oxygen in the wine.

The first dose, before fermentation is to kill any wild yeast or bacteria on the fruit. The standard protocol is to add 50 parts per million (1/4 tsp or 1.5 grams per 5 gallons) and then wait 24 hours before adding yeast, to give the SO2 time to kill microbes as well as dissipate to a level that your chosen yeast can survive in. Fortunate for you, you used a yeast with a pretty high tolerance for SO2, because you only waited 30 minutes.

SO2 additions after this are your preservative used to keep your wine from spoiling. As others said, after fermentation, rack off off the lees (ferment in a bucket next time, it’s much easier to clean) into a carboy and add your first dose of SO2. How much SO2 is dictated by your pH, but 50ppm is a good rule of thumb. Wait 3 months, rack and SO2. Wait another 3 months and only rack if needed, but add SO2. Do a final dosage a day or two before you do your final racking and bottle.

These are general rules and the wine will dictate what it needs and why. If your fermentation struggled (surprised it didn’t) you can get off putting smells. This would require some additional splash racking as well.


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## winemanden (Apr 28, 2020)

From the dates J gives, it looks as if he found the recipe? before he found the Forum


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## justsipn (Apr 28, 2020)

Correct, I found the recipe last summer when I froze the rhubarb. One thing I've noticed is that rhubarb wine recipes I've found on line differ from recipes for grapes. Don't know if that's the problem.

Next time, I'm definitely going to ferment in the bucket. I can already see the carboy is going to be a mess to clean. However, I don't think I had a problem with fermentation because it went crazy for about 1-1.5 weeks and I don't have any bad smells. I'm not just talking about bubbles in the airlock (I've learned that's no big deal) but, the juice itself was constantly churning and bubbling on top.

So, since I'm ad libbing her a little since what I've already done is different than normal, I'm going to do the following unless you see a problem:

1) Tonight, check SG. If it's below 1.0, I'm going to rack it into the bucket and clean the carboy. (if it's higher than that, I'll wait a couple days to check again) I will then put it back into the carboy, add SO2 and cap with airlock. This would be racking it off the gross lees, correct?

2) In 3 weeks rack it again off the fine lees.

3) Wait 3 months and rack again adding more SO2

4) Possibly rack again in another 3 months if needed.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

Thanks, I'm trying to summarize what several people are saying.


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## NorCal (Apr 28, 2020)

I think you got it. Just make sure the carboy is completely full with wine up the neck. Oxygen is not your friend from now on.


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## justsipn (Apr 28, 2020)

NorCal said:


> I think you got it. Just make sure the carboy is completely full with wine up the neck. Oxygen is not your friend from now on.


It's filled up till it starts to narrow towards the neck.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 28, 2020)

justsipn said:


> It's filled up till it starts to narrow towards the neck.



He means after the rack to bucket and back again.


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## justsipn (Apr 28, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> He means after the rack to bucket and back again.


So, replace it with distilled water if needed?


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## sour_grapes (Apr 28, 2020)

That wouldn't be your best bet, as it will water down the wine. We usually say fill it with "a like wine." Obviously, it will be tough to come by a rhubarb wine to top it. If it were my wine, I would top it with a crisp white wine.


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## justsipn (Apr 28, 2020)

Well, that was fun. 

SG was just below 1.000. 

Racked it into a very sterile bucket, cleaned and sterilized the carboy and returned the wine to the carboy. Returned air lock. It looks like I need to add some white wine to top it off. I’ll get that tomorrow, dissolve the SO2 in some and add it. 

Wife is skeptical but I’m bound and determined to make this work. 

Thanks for the help. 

Ps...carboy wasn’t bad to clean.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 28, 2020)

This all sounds promising. Carry on, and surprise the wife!


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## Scooter68 (Apr 28, 2020)

Would suggest for your next batch you step back to something a little easier in terms of fruit types. Some fruits like Rhubarb, Persimmon, Watermelon and any number of others involve some special handling, careful timing, or additives to achieve a enjoyable flavor. Thought I said this on here but it was probably someone else starting out - Follow the KISS principle with your wine types until you've made maybe 2-3 batches with good success. It can be very discouraging to invest money or hard to come by fruit only to have a wine turn out with off flavors or just not have anything close to what you were expecting. 
_Also take careful and in-depth notes. Include what you did, what you saw, measurements smells, tastes etc. Never heard anyone say, Yeah, I wrote too many notes on that last batch of wine. _


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## G259 (Apr 29, 2020)

Your first . . . 20 . . . batches will be 'learning batches' (I like to say). I didn't know to experiment with back-sweetening with my first few batches, so they came out very dry and kind of harsh, but the fun is learning, and trying new approaches. I now add sugar, just before bottling, to an SG of 1.000 - .998 (I like my wine on the drier side, adjust to your own liking!).













0


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## wineview (Apr 29, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Well, that was fun.
> 
> SG was just below 1.000.
> 
> ...


Not being a smart ass but many many years ago when I started brewing beer, I was very sternly corrected when I used the word “sterilized”. Actually you are “sanitizing”. Good luck with the wine!


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## Arne (Apr 29, 2020)

If you havn't yet, try tasting a little bit. Will probably be dry, but if too dry, add a bit of sugar to the glass. When it comes time to sweeten the batch, you have to add k-meta and pot. sorbate to keep the batch from starting to ferment again. If you like it dry, you do not have to sweeten it. Arne.


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Would suggest for your next batch you step back to something a little easier in terms of fruit types. Some fruits like Rhubarb, Persimmon, Watermelon and any number of others involve some special handling, careful timing, or additives to achieve a enjoyable flavor. Thought I said this on here but it was probably someone else starting out - Follow the KISS principle with your wine types until you've made maybe 2-3 batches with good success. It can be very discouraging to invest money or hard to come by fruit only to have a wine turn out with off flavors or just not have anything close to what you were expecting.
> _Also take careful and in-depth notes. Include what you did, what you saw, measurements smells, tastes etc. Never heard anyone say, Yeah, I wrote too many notes on that last batch of wine. _


Well, like I said, I used Rhubarb because it's what I have and I have a lot. I do a lot of my own hunting, fishing, gardening....etc. So, I like to source my own food. This is something I've always wanted to try with it. After you wrote this, I got to thinking that I have some friends who grow wine grapes. I might think about buying some from them for a batch. I'm not sure what kind of grapes they grow. Also, I bought a journal and have been taking as meticulous of notes as I can. Since I've started posting here, there are a few entries that state..."the experts say....".


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

G259 said:


> Your first . . . 20 . . . batches will be 'learning batches' (I like to say). I didn't know to experiment with back-sweetening with my first few batches, so they came out very dry and kind of harsh, but the fun is learning, and trying new approaches. I now add sugar, just before bottling, to an SG of 1.000 - .998 (I like my wine on the drier side, adjust to your own liking!).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, at my age, and if I end up doing one batch per year, that means I will get it down about the time I'm 74. I think my wife will give up on me before then. 

I'm aware of the back-sweetening and plan on probably doing some. I've heard that rhubarb wine can be on the dry side. I like dry wines but my wife likes a little sweeter wine. So, I'll attempt to fall somewhere in the middle.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 29, 2020)

I do a 95% rhurbarb/5% raspberry which is called Rhurbarb Blush.
* As @NorCal says oxygen is not your friend. As a result I try to rack three times max. Rhurbarb blush clears well so this works. Every transfer gets metabisulphite, my quality improved a few years back when I assumed there was no residual SO2 and added the calculated 50 ppm primary, 25 ppm racking and 60 ppm bottled.
* last years batch was 52 lbs producing 7 gallons after racking. Yup this is stronger than yours, ,,,, after doing best of show I’ve convinced everyone in the vinters club that more fruit is better, ,,, I aim for knock your Sox off aroma and taste. ,,, Yup basically no water in it.
* expect to backsweeten, this will increase the fruit flavors. My percent acid is high so I aim for 1.015. A guess is yours will be balanced at about 1.000
* I see the post on hard to do, ,,, for me this has been an easy wine once I upped the antioxidant (metabisulphite)


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> I do a 95% rhurbarb/5% raspberry which is called Rhurbarb Blush.
> * As @NorCal says oxygen is not your friend. As a result I try to rack three times max. Rhurbarb blush clears well so this works. Every transfer gets metabisulphite, my quality improved a few years back when I assumed there was no residual SO2 and added the calculated 50 ppm primary, 25 ppm racking and 60 ppm bottled.
> * last years batch was 52 lbs producing 7 gallons after racking. Yup this is stronger than yours, ,,,, after doing best of show I’ve convinced everyone in the vinters club that more fruit is better, ,,, I aim for knock your Sox off aroma and taste.
> * expect to backsweeten, this will increase the fruit flavors. My percent acid is high so I aim for 1.015. A guess is yours will be balanced at about 1.000


Great....thanks for the info. I was hoping someone on here had good info on rhubarb wine. I actually used 10 lbs rhubarb and 2 lbs of a mix of strawberries, blueberries and raspberries. I have thought that next time I'm going to use more fruit to get the same amount of wine. Question on the SO2. does it take color away every time you add it? The one time I added it, it ruined an off white color and most of the pinkish red it came back, but not all.

Also, I've learned that I need a wine thief. One is on order and headed my way.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 29, 2020)

Color loss from SO2 depends on the type of fruit. Raspberry retains color well. The worst I have seen has been cherry, one year I added calculated metabisulphite directly to the cherry as it was thawing. Normal is to dilute with water so the ppm in solution isn’t as high. (ex maraschino cherry production completely decolorezes the fruit with SO2 and adds artificial color)

!
2019 and 2018 samples


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## Scooter68 (Apr 29, 2020)

If you have access to wild or domesticated blackberries, that's an easy wine. A number of other common "country wine" fruits are Blueberries , Plums, Apple, Peach etc some have a tendency to clear slowly (Apple & Peach) others a little acidic but these are good stand-alone fruits for wine. I fully agree with using what you have but if what you have is a challenging fruit for wine making - you can find yourself unnecessarily frustrated. That's the reason for my suggestion. I recently took up flying RC Planes and with that hobby you have to either have very deep pockets or learn to limited what you try to do until you get the hang of some the quirks of RC plane flight. Same with wine making. By starting out with something simple you can learn the routines and master the basics without ramming your head in the wall. Watermelon for example is very quick to spoil and many a first time watermelon wine maker has posted here about how their first batch began to spoil before the yeast could generate enough alcohol to preserve it. Other fruits lack certain elements or need help with things like tannin or LOTS of sugar to reach a fermentable level. It's all part of the learning process and sometimes a step-by-step approach gives better results that you can repeat than jumping into the middle of a challenging ferment.


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> If you have access to wild or domesticated blackberries, that's an easy wine. A number of other common "country wine" fruits are Blueberries , Plums, Apple, Peach etc some have a tendency to clear slowly (Apple & Peach) others a little acidic but these are good stand-alone fruits for wine. I fully agree with using what you have but if what you have is a challenging fruit for wine making - you can find yourself unnecessarily frustrated. That's the reason for my suggestion. I recently took up flying RC Planes and with that hobby you have to either have very deep pockets or learn to limited what you try to do until you get the hang of some the quirks of RC plane flight. Same with wine making. By starting out with something simple you can learn the routines and master the basics without ramming your head in the wall. Watermelon for example is very quick to spoil and many a first time watermelon wine maker has posted here about how their first batch began to spoil before the yeast could generate enough alcohol to preserve it. Other fruits lack certain elements or need help with things like tannin or LOTS of sugar to reach a fermentable level. It's all part of the learning process and sometimes a step-by-step approach gives better results that you can repeat than jumping into the middle of a challenging ferment.



Thanks, I forgot (and you reminded me) I have a lot of wild plums around me. That might be interesting to try.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 29, 2020)

Plum has pectin so lots of pectase to help it clear.
The tree ripened plum I have is moderate acid so I mix it with more acidic fruit as currant or rhurbarb. My normal target is pH 3.2 to 3.4.


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Plum has pectin so lots of pectase to help it clear.
> The tree ripened plum I have is moderate acid so I mix it with more acidic fruit as currant or rhurbarb. My normal target is pH 3.2 to 3.4.


When you mix it with rhubarb, what ratio do you use?

Is there a cheap way to measure acidity? I noticed in another thread there's a piece of equipment that costs $120. That might not go over well.


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## Scooter68 (Apr 29, 2020)

I invested in a basic pH meter and you can find one for $20-30. The key with ANY of them is to keep them calibrated using calibrating solutions so just make sure that what you buy has some of that with it to get you started. Calibration should be checked frequently (every couple of weeks if you are using it a lot) . Even the big high-dollar units require calibration checks. So you can start with an inexpensive one and replace it if it goes goofy or dies. My first one delveloped a flaky on/off switch but still works if I can get it to stay on.

One last thing - keep a gallon of distilled water around for cleaning/rinsing and preparing calibration solutions.

Here's a very inexpensive unit that should get you started. Just remember to clean after use and follow basic steps"
Store with the sensor in distilled water
Soak sensor in distilled water for a couple of minutes before use
Clean and rinse after use.
Calibrate before use if it's been a week or more since last use.



https://www.amazon.com/Accuracy-Measurement-Household-Drinking-Aquarium/dp/B08197LX6H/ref=sr_1_16?dchild=1&keywords=pH+meter+wine&qid=1588173679&sr=8-16



Buffer solution/powders:


https://www.amazon.com/15-pack-Buffer-Solution-Precise-Calibration/dp/B06X3TKTBC/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=pH+meter+buffers&qid=1588173854&sr=8-3



So for about $25.00 you can get started with a digital pH meter. (PLus that gallon of Distilled water.)


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 29, 2020)

I measure pH with an Extech pH stick (the cheap ones work good enough).
i titrate %acid with 0.2 N sodium hydroxide and the pH meter. Originally using a kit and for years just buying sodium hydroxide from the wine toys store.
! ,

I don’t own a wine thief, a syringe works or mom used a turkey baster
In 2017 I simply said the plum is pH 3.62 and cornelian cherry is pH 2.87 so mix a ratio of roughly 2 to 1 to get target pH. (Doesn’t always work if %TA is high, but an easy starting point)
Back sweetening fixes high TA


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## Scooter68 (Apr 29, 2020)

Thanks to Rice Guy for mentioning TA measurements. Some folks use pH, some TA, some both, some NONE of the above. A digital pH meter can be used for TA as well and it's very simple. IF you get tempted to measure that sometime, you can search for directions on that. It only requires 1 additional test chemical but the down side is that the test sample has to be discarded instead of returning it to the bucket/carboy as you do with a digital pH tester.


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## VitnerHydrologist (Apr 29, 2020)

G259 said:


> Your first . . . 20 . . . batches will be 'learning batches' (I like to say). I didn't know to experiment with back-sweetening with my first few batches, so they came out very dry and kind of harsh, but the fun is learning, and trying new approaches. I now add sugar, just before bottling, to an SG of 1.000 - .998 (I like my wine on the drier side, adjust to your own liking!).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not to derail from the main thread, but I’m also a beginner here. Do all wines need to be backsweetened? I’m making a batch of strawberry wine right now and I’m worried about it being too sweet. I feel like rhubarb might be different, though?


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## cmason1957 (Apr 29, 2020)

VitnerHydrologist said:


> Not to derail from the main thread, but I’m also a beginner here. Do all wines need to be backsweetened? I’m making a batch of strawberry wine right now and I’m worried about it being too sweet. I feel like rhubarb might be different, though?



Most fruit wines end up tasting better if they are backsweetened. You shouldn't worry about your strawberry being to sweet, ferment to dry, allow to stabilize, then add Potassium metabisulphite and potassium sorbate, then backsweeten until you are happy with it.

Most red wine isn't backsweetened, most white wine from grapes might or might not be. It really depends on what tastes best to you.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 29, 2020)

Here's the thing: there really is not very much difference between making wine from wine grapes and making what is often called country wines - wines from all other fruits and vegetables. Making the wine is the same BUT wine grapes are typically cultivated to contain all the sugars and all the acids and tannins that you need to make a wine that you can bottle at around 12-14% ABV. ( a starting gravity of about 1.090) Other fruits - berries, or stone fruit or citrus or even bananas and vegetables - from zucchini to rhubarb to turnips do not have as much sugar and may be more or less acidic than grape wines and are unlikely to have the tannins that you find in red wines so as wine makers we need to taste and measure the substrates we are going to ferment and so modify them as necessary... but if you know how to make a good rhubarb wine you can make a good honey mead or a wine made with hibiscus flowers or elderberries or wine grapes.

That said, in my opinion, most of the material that is self published on the web is like any vanity published work - mainly garbage. Better is to check out books that have been trade published. They often have fact checkers, editors and a requirement that the author tests their recipes before they spend a penny printing.


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

Ok, I took out a small sample. 

It has a very sweet fruity smell. It has a fruity bitter taste. Wife wasn’t impressed. 

Quote from her: “ smells like it should be a sweet fruity wine like Edelweiss but has a bitter taste. 

Added the SO2. Took the nice pink color away again. Hope it comes back again.


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## G259 (Apr 29, 2020)

What was the SG? It might be finished, and very dry. If less than 1.000, I would add sorbate to stabilize, then you can add sugar in little steps until it comes to you're liking. Then, again test the SG, so you know (about) where you like it. Different fruits will turn out higher or lower. I have never made one, but I expect that a zucchini wine would need more back-sweetening. I could be wrong though.

BTW, my friend makes a strawberry-rhubarb wine that is 'to die for'!


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

G259 said:


> What was the SG? It might be finished, and very dry. If less than 1.000, I would add sorbate to stabilize, then you can add sugar in little steps until it comes to you're liking. Then, again test the SG, so you know (about) where you like it. Different fruits will turn out higher or lower. I have never made one, but I expect that a zucchini wine would need more back-sweetening. I could be wrong though.
> 
> BTW, my friend makes a strawberry-rhubarb wine that is 'to die for'!


.998


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## G259 (Apr 29, 2020)

OK, you can either stabilize it here with sorbate, or let it go absolutely dry to .992-0. It depends how much alcohol you were expecting, and what you want, but I generally wait it out, then sweeten. I hope you are in a carboy now, and not still in the bucket. Not to worry though, I have gone completely dry in a bucket, and it was fine, not the best practice though.


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## hounddawg (Apr 29, 2020)

if your wife likes sweet fruity then try a cup at a SG of 1.040, , most traditional winemakers (Grape) tend to like their wines on the drier side, a fair portion of country wine makers like a sweeter wine, most of my country wines are 1.040 when bottled, the above advice is from some of the best , all of them are very talented, 
Dawg


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## justsipn (Apr 29, 2020)

G259 said:


> OK, you can either stabilize it here with sorbate, or let it go absolutely dry to .992-0. It depends how much alcohol you were expecting, and what you want, but I generally wait it out, then sweeten. I hope you are in a carboy now, and not still in the bucket. Not to worry though, I have gone completely dry in a bucket, and it was fine, not the best practice though.


So, right now my alcohol content is 12.77%. If I let it go to .992, it will be 13.5%.

That isn’t that big of a difference to me. However, I don’t have sorbate so I guess I’m riding it out for now. I should get some ordered. 

Is it safe to say the bitterness goes away with time?


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## Scooter68 (Apr 29, 2020)

Don't waste your time trying to stop a fermentation in process. If you start with the right initial SG you can just let it ferment dry and back-sweeten it later. While you might, if you get lucky, stop a fermentation in process - getting it to stop as a specific SG is really really a difficult move. While 13.5% is high for a fruit wine... with a little back-sweetening you can make decent. Sometimes we just learn our lessons and move on. Sometimes our "mistakes" turn really pretty good.


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## hounddawg (Apr 29, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Don't waste your time trying to stop a fermentation in process. If you start with the right initial SG you can just let it ferment dry and back-sweeten it later. While you might, if you get lucky, stop a fermentation in process - getting it to stop as a specific SG is really really a difficult move. While 13.5% is high for a fruit wine... with a little back-sweetening you can make decent. Sometimes we just learn our lessons and move on. Sometimes our "mistakes" turn really pretty good.


Amen ,,, truer words never said,,,,,


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## G259 (Apr 29, 2020)

Wow, I would say that 1.040 was so sweet that I couldn't drink it, was that supposed to be 1.004? I could see that, but WOW (lol!) 'To each his own', but take regular blood sugar tests, you don't want to go diabetic (I was almost there once - soda).


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## hounddawg (Apr 29, 2020)

G259 said:


> Wow, I would say that 1.040 was so sweet that I couldn't drink it, was that supposed to be 1.004? I could see that, but WOW (lol!) 'To each his own', but take regular blood sugar tests, you don't want to go diabetic (I was almost there once - soda).


,,,Dawg


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## G259 (Apr 30, 2020)

I too have had a trach. from a TBI (wow) over 20 years ago, still improving slightly YOY. The scar is still visible, but I'll take it, against the bad results!

I wish you improved health and longevity my friend, you have helped many people here on this site, and I'm sure more in the future.


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## hounddawg (Apr 30, 2020)

G259 said:


> Wow, I would say that 1.040 was so sweet that I couldn't drink it, was that supposed to be 1.004? I could see that, but WOW (lol!) 'To each his own', but take regular blood sugar tests, you don't want to go diabetic (I was almost there once - soda).


no, got a permanent tracheostomy, T-2 thru T-7 bulging disk,,, triple bypass, upper epidermal, grinded into my brainstem and spinal cord, right led amputated below knee, left foot 1/3 amputated, diabetes, triple bypass, living very happy, train and drive mules, grow my own garden, traditional l wines taste funny to me, but fruits and berries i can taste, in the south is sweet tea country, lemonade and kool aid country as well, so sweet country wines fit in like a glove here, 
Dawg


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## G259 (Apr 30, 2020)

Wow, all the psychic power I can muster goes out to you dawg. 'More wine' yay!! The next time I lift a glass will be to you my friend.


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## hounddawg (Apr 30, 2020)

G259 said:


> Wow, all the psychic power I can muster goes out to you dawg. 'More wine' yay!! The next time I lift a glass will be to you my friend.


thank you i am honored G259
Richard AKA Dawg


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## Ikeya (Apr 30, 2020)

I would also use purified water instead of distilled. Distilled water has a lot of minerals taken out. Those key chemical elements are what yeast uses in order to produce wine. Not that you can't use it to make wine just better to use a different type of water.


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## justsipn (Apr 30, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> no, got a permanent tracheostomy, T-2 thru T-7 bulging disk,,, triple bypass, upper epidermal, grinded into my brainstem and spinal cord, right led amputated below knee, left foot 1/3 amputated, diabetes, triple bypass, living very happy, train and drive mules, grow my own garden, traditional l wines taste funny to me, but fruits and berries i can taste, in the south is sweet tea country, lemonade and kool aid country as well, so sweet country wines fit in like a glove here,
> Dawg



Hats off to you. I admire people who go through health problems like this and find ways to still enjoy life. 

I used to train harness horses. Mostly quarter horses. Never trained a mule. I’ve heard they are very different to train. 

Question, what would be the specific gravity of a Cabernet?


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## wineview (Apr 30, 2020)

G259 said:


> Your first . . . 20 . . . batches will be 'learning batches' (I like to say). I didn't know to experiment with back-sweetening with my first few batches, so they came out very dry and kind of harsh, but the fun is learning, and trying new approaches. I now add sugar, just before bottling, to an SG of 1.000 - .998 (I like my wine on the drier side, adjust to your own liking!).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you explain why you back sweeten if you like your wines dry? 
Thanks.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 30, 2020)

The general rule on sweetness is the higher percent Titratable Acidity the more sugar needed for balanced flavor. The details however involve pleasing pH, ex a fairly high TA product is tooth paste but it is near the pH of your mouth so you don’t notice it.

Balance is the key, ,,, if you produce a wine with high bitter (tannins),,, higher sweet would be appropriate. Aromatics operate on the nasal cavity therefore you can push these high (ex use more fruit/less water) as long as the impact acid produces is in a normal flavor range for your mouth.


VitnerHydrologist said:


> Do all wines need to be backsweetened? I’m making a batch of strawberry wine right now and I’m worried about it being too sweet.


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## DizzyIzzy (Apr 30, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> I do a 95% rhurbarb/5% raspberry which is called Rhurbarb Blush.
> * As @NorCal says oxygen is not your friend. As a result I try to rack three times max. Rhurbarb blush clears well so this works. Every transfer gets metabisulphite, my quality improved a few years back when I assumed there was no residual SO2 and added the calculated 50 ppm primary, 25 ppm racking and 60 ppm bottled.
> * last years batch was 52 lbs producing 7 gallons after racking. Yup this is stronger than yours, ,,,, after doing best of show I’ve convinced everyone in the vinters club that more fruit is better, ,,, I aim for knock your Sox off aroma and taste. ,,, Yup basically no water in it.
> * expect to backsweeten, this will increase the fruit flavors. My percent acid is high so I aim for 1.015. A guess is yours will be balanced at about 1.000
> * I see the post on hard to do, ,,, for me this has been an easy wine once I upped the antioxidant (metabisulphite)


I have been reading on this forum about "backsweetening"? Just what is it and how much is used per gallon?


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## DizzyIzzy (Apr 30, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Color loss from SO2 depends on the type of fruit. Raspberry retains color well. The worst I have seen has been cherry, one year I added calculated metabisulphite directly to the cherry as it was thawing. Normal is to dilute with water so the ppm in solution isn’t as high. (ex maraschino cherry production completely decolorezes the fruit with SO2 and adds artificial color)
> 
> !View attachment 60532
> 2019 and 2018 samples


Rice guy, or anyone out there, can you help? I just ordered a gallon of rhubarb "fruit wine base" from LD Carlson only to find it contains other fruit concentrates (much to my dismay). Can I add fresh rhubarb to the primary? If I do, should I also add sugar? The wine base can indicated there was corn syrup in the base. I would not have bought it if I had known that. Any pointers would be very much appreciated.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 30, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I have been reading on this forum about "backsweetening"? Just what is it and how much is used per gallon?


"Backsweetening" is adding sugar to a stabilized wine to provide sweetness, but not enable a new fermentation.

When you add sugar to a wine, the yeast will start eating it, producing more alcohol and CO2. "Stabilization" prevents the yeast from doing this. The process:

Let the wine ferment to dryness, where the SG is typically 0.990 to 0.996. As mentioned above, stopping an active fermentation is possible, but it's much more feasible to let it ferment to dryness.

To stabilize, add 1/4 tsp potassium meta-bisulfite (K-meta) per *5* gallons and 1/2 tsp potassium sorbate per *1* gallon. Check the sorbate package in case there is a different recommendation. [I tend to go a bit lighter on sorbate (2 tsp/5 gallons instead of 2.5 tsp) and have had no problems.]

How much sugar? Depends on what you like.

Make a sugar syrup (boil 1 cup water, stir in 2 cups sugar until clear, cool to room temperature). Put 4 oz wine in a large glass and add a bit of syrup, stir, and taste. Keep doing this until you like the result. Keep track of how much sugar was added to the wine, then calculate how much syrup is needed for your entire batch.

I've been doing this long enough that I have a good feel for what I want, based upon the wine. Instead of mixing in a glass, I sweeten the entire batch.

I'll start with 1/4 cup syrup in 5 gallons, stir well, and taste (using a wine thief). I prefer dryer wines in general, so 1/2 to 3/4 cup syrup may be all I add.

If the wine is highly acidic (later harvest white grape), more sugar will be required to balance the acid. And of course, YOUR palate is what matters.


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## justsipn (Apr 30, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> "Backsweetening" is adding sugar to a stabilized wine to provide sweetness, but not enable a new fermentation.
> 
> When you add sugar to a wine, the yeast will start eating it, producing more alcohol and CO2. "Stabilization" prevents the yeast from doing this. The process:
> 
> ...



Thank you very much for going through this. I spent a short time this morning googling it and didn't find anything I felt comfortable with. I gave up and thought I have months before I'll be doing it anyway.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 30, 2020)

But remember that a very young wine made using techniques that may have stressed the yeast can be full of all kinds of compounds that will take the yeast weeks perhaps, months to transform into flavors you prefer and the wine may contain many kinds of unpleasant alcohols other than ethanol that may need time to bond with other elements in your wine or evaporate off. In short, a young wine can be like a noisy adolescent whereas a wine that has been allowed to age may be more like a mature adult.


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## justsipn (Apr 30, 2020)

BernardSmith said:


> But remember that a very young wine made using techniques that may have stressed the yeast can be full of all kinds of compounds that will take the yeast weeks perhaps, months to transform into flavors you prefer and the wine may contain many kinds of unpleasant alcohols other than ethanol that may need time to bond with other elements in your wine or evaporate off. In short, a young wine can be like a noisy adolescent whereas a wine that has been allowed to age may be more like a mature adult.



I'm hoping this is where my wine is. It has a very distinct sweet flavor which includes your normal wine/alcohol flavor, then it has a completely separate sort of bitter taste. It doesn't taste or smell spoiled at all. I'm hoping that a couple more rankings, more SO2 treatments and time will meld the flavors together and reduce the bitterness side of the flavor. I will then back sweeten it to where we want.


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## BernardSmith (Apr 30, 2020)

But your wine is made from rhubarb, yes? Rhubarb is very acidic. Did you measure the TA (titratable acidity) - that's the amount of acid, not the strength of the acid which is the pH. TA is measured in g/L , (6 g/L, for example or is written as the percentage of acid in the volume of wine, ie .06% , for example. 
My guess is that the TA will likely be high (around .08% or possibly even higher) but you really want a wine to be about .06% - .065%


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## justsipn (Apr 30, 2020)

BernardSmith said:


> But your wine is made from rhubarb, yes? Rhubarb is very acidic. Did you measure the TA (titratable acidity) - that's the amount of acid, not the strength of the acid which is the pH. TA is measured in g/L , (6 g/L, for example or is written as the percentage of acid in the volume of wine, ie .06% , for example.
> My guess is that the TA will likely be high (around .08% or possibly even higher) but you really want a wine to be about .06% - .065%



I'm wondering if that's it. I don't have what I need to measure that yet. I should get that. I read a rhubarb wine recipe that was linked in another thread by @Rice_Guy (I think) and it talked about rhubarb having a lot of oxalic acid and you can taste it. They suggested adding precipitated chalk to correct it.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 30, 2020)

Yes you can add rhurbarb to the base, the first question is what is your crop like? Ex:
2016 . . . pH 3.31 (Juiced after freezing)
2017 . . . pH 3.32 SpG 1.020
2019 . . . pH 3.27 SpG 1.018 TA 1.38%
rhurbarb‘s pH is good for wine, the sugar is low (this explains LD Carlson adding apple, pear, and grape) and the TA is double what grape wine suggests (which can be “fixed” by back sweetening)

The second question is what style do you want? My style is bold flavor to get blue ribbons. Typical web recipes do 4 or 5 pounds per gallon, I would call that “commercial”, just enough so that you know what it is. 
With my style I would use rhurbarb juice to replace the 4 gallons of water, I would have to back sweeten a lot to make a drinkable finished wine. Another way to balance TA would be to chemically remove it with calcium carbonate (but this is advanced)
The just enough style would be taking a high water web recipe for rhurbarb wine and adding it to your LD Carlson along with the normal direction water, ,,,,, you’ll need a big carboy


DizzyIzzy said:


> I just ordered a gallon of rhurbarb fruit wine base. . . . With other fruit


looking at the LD Carlson ingredient list, it reads like a natural food, ,,, ie rhurbarb doesn’t have much nutritional content for yeast so add “natural “ ingredients to make up the deficit. Have played with this style too. Two years back I mixed rhurbarb and peach. The function of the rhurbarb was to provide acid and hide in the background. The function of the peach was to provide aroma and be the name on the bottle label.

Have fun with it.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 30, 2020)

justsipn said:


> I'm wondering if that's it. I don't have what I need to measure that yet. I should get that. I read a rhubarb wine recipe that was linked in another thread by @Rice_Guy (I think) and it talked about rhubarb having a lot of oxalic acid and you can taste it. They suggested adding precipitated chalk to correct it.


The oxalic acid is primarily in the leaves. DO NOT use the leaves! Oxalic acid produces gout and in high concentration is toxic! The stalk is mainly Malic acid with a trace of oxalic acid.

Calcium carbonate can chemically combine with acid and reduce the Titratable acidity which decreases the need for back sweetening.
TA is big time chemistry, are you up for it? ,,,,,, For the purpose of cooking if you can eat it straight the TA is reasonable. Example it is hard to drink vinegar with a TA of 6.0% but straight grapefruit juice with a TA of 1.5% is OK and very enjoyable with a little sugar.


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## justsipn (Apr 30, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> The oxalic acid is primarily in the leaves. DO NOT use the leaves! Oxalic acid produces gout and in high concentration is toxic! The stalk is mainly Malic acid with a trace of oxalic acid.
> 
> Calcium carbonate can chemically combine with acid and reduce the Titratable acidity which decreases the need for back sweetening.
> TA is big time chemistry, are you up for it? ,,,,,, For the purpose of cooking if you can eat it straight the TA is reasonable. Example it is hard to drink vinegar with a TA of 6.0% but straight grapefruit juice with a TA of 1.5% is OK and very enjoyable with a little sugar.


Now that’s interesting. I knew the leaves were toxic but, didn’t know the exact terms. 

Wonder why that recipe mentions it. 

I really like science and am enjoying the science part of wine making. However, not sure I’m ready that big of a step.


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## G259 (Apr 30, 2020)

wineview said:


> Could you explain why you back sweeten if you like your wines dry?
> Thanks.



I like my wines dry, but not mouth puckering dry! I should have wrote 'drier', a little sugar goes a long way to promoting the fruitiness of the wine, and I'll not skip that step. Again, I'll say that it is the personal preference point that you have to find.


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## G259 (Apr 30, 2020)

. . . BTW, I have tested the SG of an array of commercial wines, and it was interesting. All Woodbridge: Chardonnay - 1.000, Cab. Sav. 1.000, Pinot Gris 1.020, Reisling 1.050, Sav. Blanc 0.950


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## sour_grapes (May 1, 2020)

BernardSmith said:


> But your wine is made from rhubarb, yes? Rhubarb is very acidic. Did you measure the TA (titratable acidity) - that's the amount of acid, not the strength of the acid which is the pH. TA is measured in g/L , (6 g/L, for example or is written as the percentage of acid in the volume of wine, ie .06% , for example.
> My guess is that the TA will likely be high (around .08% or possibly even higher) but you really want a wine to be about .06% - .065%





justsipn said:


> I'm wondering if that's it. I don't have what I need to measure that yet. I should get that. I read a rhubarb wine recipe that was linked in another thread by @Rice_Guy (I think) and it talked about rhubarb having a lot of oxalic acid and you can taste it. They suggested adding precipitated chalk to correct it.



I do not wish to nitpick just for the sake of picking nits, but I don't want you to get confused. Bernard was off by a factor of 10 in converting to percentages. 1 g/L equates to 0.1% TA. Most grape wines are in the range of ~6 g/L or 0.6% TA.


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## hounddawg (May 1, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I do not wish to nitpick just for the sake of picking nits, but I don't want you to get confused. Bernard was off by a factor of 10 in converting to percentages. 1 g/L equates to 0.1% TA. Most grape wines are in the range of ~6 g/L or 0.6% TA.


BAHWAAA YAWLS DRIVING ME TO DRINK lol,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## G259 (May 1, 2020)

Well, it IS after 5:00!


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## hounddawg (May 1, 2020)

G259 said:


> Well, it IS after 5:00!


you got me on that, i stand corrected .. man i am slow,,, lol


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## DizzyIzzy (May 1, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> "Backsweetening" is adding sugar to a stabilized wine to provide sweetness, but not enable a new fermentation.
> 
> When you add sugar to a wine, the yeast will start eating it, producing more alcohol and CO2. "Stabilization" prevents the yeast from doing this. The process:
> 
> ...


Winemaker 81, Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. Your message was specific and educational. I just printed it off and added to my thickening binder of "Winetalk" notes. I so appreciate all of you experienced vinters. There is no better education than experience!!


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## laxarwolf (May 1, 2020)

Do you see an improvement in wine when using purified water? Most reverse osmosis water is very low and mineral content also. But I keep thinking about looking up a water profile 4 Columbia Valley and recreating that water profile before I make my next Pinot Noir


Ikeya said:


> I would also use purified water instead of distilled. Distilled water has a lot of minerals taken out. Those key chemical elements are what yeast uses in order to produce wine. Not that you can't use it to make wine just better to use a different type of water.


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## BernardSmith (May 1, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> I do not wish to nitpick just for the sake of picking nits, but I don't want you to get confused. Bernard was off by a factor of 10 in converting to percentages. 1 g/L equates to 0.1% TA. Most grape wines are in the range of ~6 g/L or 0.6% TA.



Absolutely. I stand (or sit) corrected.


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## Ikeya (May 1, 2020)

laxarwolf said:


> Do you see an improvement in wine when using purified water? Most reverse osmosis water is very low and mineral content also. But I keep thinking about looking up a water profile 4 Columbia Valley and recreating that water profile before I make my next Pinot Noir


I have only used purified. For my first batch I bought distilled and a friend of mine who brews for a local place said it's best not to use it. Then I googled it.


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## Scooter68 (May 1, 2020)

Think you are right on not using distilled. I use it only for mixing my sanitizer, rising pH meter and making buffer solutions if I need to.


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## hounddawg (May 1, 2020)

i figure if for thousands of years naturally good water was used then i'll just do the same, now i don't strive to make traditional wines, just good ole sweet country wines, with good water your body benefits from the minerals in the water, i figure that as long as you have good water then that's that, my style is very laid back non-technical, just calmly slowly easing along, my country hillbilly butt with my sweet country wines, 
Dawg


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## Darrell Hawley (May 2, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> i figure if for thousands of years naturally good water was used then i'll just do the same, now i don't strive to make traditional wines, just good ole sweet country wines, with good water your body benefits from the minerals in the water, i figure that as long as you have good water then that's that, my style is very laid back non-technical, just calmly slowly easing along, my country hillbilly butt with my sweet country wines,
> Dawg


Hounddawg, have you ever used some brown sugar in your wine ? I used 20% dark brown sugar on some cherry wine and it turned out better than all white sugar. Haven't tried brown sugar on any other wine yet.


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## justsipn (May 2, 2020)

Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.


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## Ikeya (May 2, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.


I use honey almost every batch. I start with a mix of honey and sugar. Then i feed honey during the first 5 tob7 days to up the alcohol. I originally used it because it was easy to add to it, but it gave it good flavor.


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## justsipn (May 2, 2020)

Ikeya said:


> I use honey almost every batch. I start with a mix of honey and sugar. Then i feed honey during the first 5 tob7 days to up the alcohol. I originally used it because it was easy to add to it, but it gave it good flavor.



I first started thinking about it when someone explained how you make a syrup out of sugar and water to back sweeten.


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## Ikeya (May 2, 2020)

justsipn said:


> I first started thinking about it when someone explained how you make a syrup out of sugar and water to back sweeten.


I have used honey and brown sugar to back sweeten. It gives it a good flavor. Agave nectar is not good to use as the initial sugar. It took waaaaay to much to bring my levels up lol


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## hounddawg (May 2, 2020)

Darrell Hawley said:


> Hounddawg, have you ever used some brown sugar in your wine ? I used 20% dark brown sugar on some cherry wine and it turned out better than all white sugar. Haven't tried brown sugar on any other wine yet.


no but beings you brought that up i will.
Dawg


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## hounddawg (May 2, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.


i tried honey on elderberry ,,, blackberry,, strawberry,, and a few others, it was great the first 2 years, by 4 years it was not my cup of tea, i used non-gmo organic raw wildflower honey, also made some mead and several melomel, i use honey very day in my tim hortons dark roast coffee but not in my wines no more,,, but with a permanent trach some things , well it just turned my tastes different then before the tracheostomy ,,
Dawg


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## G259 (May 4, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Speaking of sugar, has anyone ever used honey? I have a source of local non-processed honey and it’s delicious.



Using honey (and I do this) in wine is called mead (like the vikings drank). I have tried a traditional mead (water and honey, back-sweetened with honey), interesting! Apple mead, and I have a apple cider mead going. You can use grapes as well.


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## DizzyIzzy (May 10, 2020)

I have a question because I am confused about when, and how much either kmeta or potassium sorbate is used. *Question is this:* If primary fermentation is done and one racks into the secondary fermenter, does one add kmeta and/or potassium sorbate at that time? Also, how much? My confusion lies in my reading that says a different kind of fermentation is occuring during the secondary fermenter (MLF). Wouldn't the kmeta and sorbate prevent that fermenting action? Please help as I have three in secondary F. and don't know what to do now.


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## joeswine (May 10, 2020)

Stay with the kit process it tells you when to add chems and when not to.
Even if you use them just as a guide line.
Guessing and off the wall conjecture is in correct.
There are rules on wine making it helped me greatly ( Wikipedia)and attach it to my work board or make a file to referenced to s needed.
Just a thought.


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## Johnd (May 10, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I have a question because I am confused about when, and how much either kmeta or potassium sorbate is used. *Question is this:* If primary fermentation is done and one racks into the secondary fermenter, does one add kmeta and/or potassium sorbate at that time? Also, how much? My confusion lies in my reading that says a different kind of fermentation is occuring during the secondary fermenter (MLF). Wouldn't the kmeta and sorbate prevent that fermenting action? Please help as I have three in secondary F. and don't know what to do now.


First, let’s clarify some terms. 
Kmeta (sulfite) is used to inhibit wild yeasts and bacterial agents from getting a foothold in our wine.Most commercial yeasts have some sulfite tolerance. 
Sorbate is birth control for yeast, it prevents yeast from budding and reproducing a colony capable of fermentation. It will not stop an active fermentation, but will prevent a new one from getting started if you add sugar to your wine.

In the winemaking world, exclusive of the kit world, “secondary fermentation” refers to MLF (Malolactic Fermentation), a bacterial fermentation that converts harsh malic acid into smoother lactic acid. Most of us who make red wine from grapes conduct MLF either during alcoholic fermentation, or immediately following AF, by adding the bacteria to cause this to occur. Kmeta inhibits MLF, so we seek to minimize, if not avoid its use until MLF is completed. The presence of sorbate in a wine that undergoes MLF will ruin the wine, period. So the answer where kits are NOT concerned is no Kmeta (or very little) and no sorbate, period.

Hop over to the kit world. In this world, secondary fermentation doesn’t refer to MLF, but instead, to the completion of alcoholic in a SECOND vessel, typically a carboy or demijohn. They call this “secondary fermentation”, even though it refers to the completion of alcoholic fermentation in a second vessel. This terminology discrepancy created by the kit instructions is the source of much confusion. Even in the kit world, no Kmeta or sorbate need be used until AF is complete. 

Short and sweet, with kits and grapes and fruits and vegetables, alcoholic fermentation is conducted until the wine is nearly out of sugar, then we move our wine to a new vessel to finish AF, a vessel that helps us prevent too much oxygen exposure as fermentation ceases, and the CO2 that protects it from oxygen is no longer being created. No Kmeta or sorbate needs to be used until your AF is 100% complete. Sorbate is unnecessary if AF has used up all of your sugar and you don’t plan to add sugar to make your wine sweeter.


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## hounddawg (May 10, 2020)

G259 said:


> Using honey (and I do this) in wine is called mead (like the vikings drank). I have tried a traditional mead (water and honey, back-sweetened with honey), interesting! Apple mead, and I have a apple cider mead going. You can use grapes as well.


the addition of fruits or berries ain't that a melomel ? just wondering ?


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## G259 (May 11, 2020)

. . . also, how do i know that mlf is happening? do i have to add a culture to the wine? will it happen naturally? I have an Apple, Kiwi, Strawberry, from 3/24, that is still bubbling. Degassing or MLF (1/40 sec.)?


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## hounddawg (May 11, 2020)

Darrell Hawley said:


> Hounddawg, have you ever used some brown sugar in your wine ? I used 20% dark brown sugar on some cherry wine and it turned out better than all white sugar. Haven't tried brown sugar on any other wine yet.


no, buy next cherry i will, tomorrow i plan to rack 2# 6's of strawberry and start a DB of cherry/black raspberry/blueberry followed by peach, then i will try a sour cherry with brown sugar, 
sounds very interesting, thank you
Dawg


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## hounddawg (May 11, 2020)

Dawg


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## DizzyIzzy (May 11, 2020)

joeswine said:


> Stay with the kit process it tells you when to add chems and when not to.
> Even if you use them just as a guide line.
> Guessing and off the wall conjecture is in correct.
> There are rules on wine making it helped me greatly ( Wikipedia)and attach it to my work board or make a file to referenced to s needed.
> Just a thought.


Thankyou Joe for your reply. The three I was talking about are* not* from kits otherwise I would, indeed have followed their instructions. I will check out Wikipedia now.


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## DizzyIzzy (May 11, 2020)

Johnd said:


> First, let’s clarify some terms.
> Kmeta (sulfite) is used to inhibit wild yeasts and bacterial agents from getting a foothold in our wine.Most commercial yeasts have some sulfite tolerance.
> Sorbate is birth control for yeast, it prevents yeast from budding and reproducing a colony capable of fermentation. It will not stop an active fermentation, but will prevent a new one from getting started if you add sugar to your wine.
> 
> ...


Dear John, thankyou for such a speedy, and thorough response. It has helped greatly! I am going to print it off and add to my WT binder. The three I referenced in my earlier message are not from kits.


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## Johnd (May 11, 2020)

G259 said:


> . . . also, how do i know that mlf is happening? do i have to add a culture to the wine? will it happen naturally? I have an Apple, Kiwi, Strawberry, from 3/24, that is still bubbling. Degassing or MLF (1/40 sec.)?


MLF can be detected by the production of many very small bubbles, sometimes no bubbles at all. The best way to know if it is happening / progressing is through the use of chromatography testing or malic acid test strips.

Most of us add cultures to get MLF going, but it can also be started by putting your wine in a barrel that had MLF conducted in it previously. In many winemaking regions and wineries the bacteria for MLF and yeast for fermenting are residents and neither are added.

I’d say the odds are against your bubbling being MLF, more likely just releasing CO2 from fermentation, but it is not impossible. Your wine is only a candidate for MLF up until the time you add sulfite and continue your regular sulfite maintenance. The best commercial strains of MLB can only tolerate 50 ppm sulfite, if you ever run upon an indigenous strain, it, like other unwanted bacteria, will be handled by your sulfite.


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## BernardSmith (May 11, 2020)

Two quick thoughts. It is very unlikely that you will get a spontaneous MLF happening as this is a bacterial process and not a true fermentation. The bacteria are bacteria that love malic acid and when they do their thing they convert the malic to lactic acid (malic being a far more "sharp" acid than lactic). 
These bacteria in the presence of sorbate produce an aroma that is similar to geraniums and this aroma most people find very unpleasant. Bottom line is that if you are planning for MLF you want to avoid stabilizing your wine with sorbates. 





__





Potassium Sorbate Post-MLF - WineMakerMag.com


If your primary fermentation (sugar to alcohol) is complete you shouldn’t have to add any potassium sorbate to your wine. In fact, adding sorbate to wine after performing malolactic fermentation (ML) can cause an unwanted effect in the finished wine — potassium sorbate reacts negatively with...




winemakermag.com


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## justsipn (May 11, 2020)

OK, just checking for confirmation on my rhubarb wine. I started it on April 4th. (5 weeks). I racked it on April 29th (12 days ago). I plan on racking it again next week (around the 3 week mark from the last racking). 

So, here's what I'm checking on. There is absolutely nothing happening other than more settling at the bottom of fine lees. I took the airlock off over the weekend and it still has a sweet wine smell to it. The color is a very nice rhubarb pink and it keeps getting clearer with the settling.

So....everything still good? Just do nothing till I rack it again around the 20th?


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## BernardSmith (May 11, 2020)

What's the current specific gravity? What was it three days ago? And have you tasted the wine? You say that nothing is happening. You might be right but generally speaking a great deal is happening that is not visible to you. For one thing yeast are incredibly house-proud and they clean up many of the compounds they produce as they ferment sugars that may adversely affect the flavor of a wine. And for another, if you are asking whether it is all still good, one really good way to check on that is to taste your wine. Of course, it will still be very "green" but you can taste off flavors and other problems and tasting wines from the moment you pitch the yeast to the moment you bottle is a very powerful way to learn more about the wine making process. You are not going to be drinking a glass of the wine for pleasure but you might want to taste a sip or two to check on its sweetness, its acidity, the tannins in it, whether the wine has flavors and aromas that indicate stressed yeast or other bacterial problems.


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## justsipn (May 11, 2020)

BernardSmith said:


> What's the current specific gravity? What was it three days ago? And have you tasted the wine? You say that nothing is happening. You might be right but generally speaking a great deal is happening that is not visible to you. For one thing yeast are incredibly house-proud and they clean up many of the compounds they produce as they ferment sugars that may adversely affect the flavor of a wine. And for another, if you are asking whether it is all still good, one really good way to check on that is to taste your wine. Of course, it will still be very "green" but you can taste off flavors and other problems and tasting wines from the moment you pitch the yeast to the moment you bottle is a very powerful way to learn more about the wine making process. You are not going to be drinking a glass of the wine for pleasure but you might want to taste a sip or two to check on its sweetness, its acidity, the tannins in it, whether the wine has flavors and aromas that indicate stressed yeast or other bacterial problems.


When I say "nothing is happening", I strictly mean visually as far as bubbling....etc. The only visual change is the settling in the carboy. When I racked it on the 29th, the SG was .998. I didn't check it over the weekend. I only had it open long enough to smell it. Didn't want to let too much oxygen in. When I tasted it on the 29th, it had two distinct flavors. One was a very nice sweet wine flavor. The other was a more bitter acidic flavor. I wasn't going to taste it again till the 20th when I rack it again. I also received my PH meter so, I will be measuring the PH when I rack it also.


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## Rice_Guy (May 11, 2020)

You are OK, time is a key ingredient. Also wine is very forgiving.
i try to rack three times max and thumb my noise at the rules that you have to rack an such and such day, one spin off of that is anytime I open I plan on adding meta. 

oxygen is your enemy!


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## justsipn (May 11, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> You are OK, time is a key ingredient.
> i try to rack three times max and thumb my noise at the rules, one spin off of that is anytime I open I plan on adding meta.
> 
> oxygen is your enemy!


Yep, I'm following your guidelines from before. Rack next week and add Meta. Probably won't then do anything till I bottle it.

Thanks a bunch.


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## DizzyIzzy (May 12, 2020)

BernardSmith said:


> Two quick thoughts. It is very unlikely that you will get a spontaneous MLF happening as this is a bacterial process and not a true fermentation. The bacteria are bacteria that love malic acid and when they do their thing they convert the malic to lactic acid (malic being a far more "sharp" acid than lactic).
> These bacteria in the presence of sorbate produce an aroma that is similar to geraniums and this aroma most people find very unpleasant. Bottom line is that if you are planning for MLF you want to avoid stabilizing your wine with sorbates.
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I had the process down until reading these messages on MLF. *Question: * Doesn't MLF happen naturally during the secondary fermentation? Does one really have to add a strain of ML? I am confused!


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## DizzyIzzy (May 12, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> You are OK, time is a key ingredient. Also wine is very forgiving.
> i try to rack three times max and thumb my noise at the rules that you have to rack an such and such day, one spin off of that is anytime I open I plan on adding meta.
> 
> oxygen is your enemy!


How much meta do you add when opening the fermenter?


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## Johnd (May 12, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I thought I had the process down until reading these messages on MLF. *Question: * Doesn't MLF happen naturally during the secondary fermentation? Does one really have to add a strain of ML? I am confused!



When we are talking about red wine from grapes, MLF (Malo Lactic Fermentation) *IS* the secondary fermentation. Alcoholic Fermentation is the Primary Fermentation. As to whether or not it happens spontaneously, that is more difficult to answer. In many wineries, they re-use barrels in which MLF has been conducted in the past, and the bacteria are already there, so none need be added. Even when they are topping up new barrels with wine from old barrels, that action transfers the bacteria. As a result, many large wineries don't add and bacteria at all, just relying on what is already in the barrels, and in some cases, already on the grapes. 

The same thing occurs with yeast, the yeast that lives in the winemaking area and on the vines/grapes themselves is often allowed to conduct alcoholic fermentation without adding a commercially obtained yeast. Some folks refer to this as fermentation from natural or wild yeasts. Here in my hometown, I have no clue what kind of mutant yeasts are hanging around, I don't want them fermenting my grapes, so I use commercial yeast, even though there may be some yeast still on the grapes from the vineyard they are grown in.

For us home wine makers, who don't have resident yeasts and ML bacteria floating around our wine growing and production areas, getting an operating culture is much more difficult, that is why we inoculate our wine with the bacteria and / or yeast of our choosing.


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## Rice_Guy (May 12, 2020)

I add 25ppm when opening, I try to maintain quiescent samples as turkey baster or 50 cc syringe,, on the theory that I am quiescent/ several inches down is not disturbed I simply add powder and recap (some folks will suggest that you mix in a bit of wine, campden is a tablet crush/mix in wine ). ,,,, top off head space.

With K meta this works out to 0.1 gram per gallon. A campden tablet is 0.5 gram ie 5 gallon carboy (or 6), if needed you can break in half for 0.25 gram/ 3 gallon Carboy.
At bottling I use 50 ppm for dry, 60 for table, or 75 ppm for sweet.

Opinion, for most of us dosing meta is the biggest thing to improve shelf life/ quality.


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## hounddawg (May 13, 2020)

G259 said:


> . . . also, how do i know that mlf is happening? do i have to add a culture to the wine? will it happen naturally? I have an Apple, Kiwi, Strawberry, from 3/24, that is still bubbling. Degassing or MLF (1/40 sec.)?


are your wines country or do you do both country and traditional (grape) i have a stainless steel rod that has two replaceable plastic wings, you put it in the carboy to stir out gases and when i back sweeten i use dry sugar and use the same tool to stir in my back sweeten sugar in, it fits in a drill or cordless, and when able a AIO vacuum pump from steve is greatly helpful in racking, bottling, degassing. i use a hole house filter that steve sells, i buy on ebay my filters 1 micron for whites and 5 microns for reds, i use a polypropylene spun filters if bought in cases of 50 they run $ 1 each, not bad since you can rence them out put in zip lock and freeze till next time needed. a few sites labelpleerers.com northrenbrewery.com i'll have to write some more down to give you if needed right now northrenbrewery.com is selling wing bottles free shipping on orders over $50, don't know your area, i live in a very ruaul area and must order every thing, oh, and the best concentrates in my opinion f gallon for is homewinery.com but i either order by phone for a 6 gal you but 1 half gal and a pint, or for 2 6 gallons i use 3 half gallons per 12 gallon must,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (May 13, 2020)

Johnd said:


> When we are talking about red wine from grapes, MLF (Malo Lactic Fermentation) *IS* the secondary fermentation. Alcoholic Fermentation is the Primary Fermentation. As to whether or not it happens spontaneously, that is more difficult to answer. In many wineries, they re-use barrels in which MLF has been conducted in the past, and the bacteria are already there, so none need be added. Even when they are topping up new barrels with wine from old barrels, that action transfers the bacteria. As a result, many large wineries don't add and bacteria at all, just relying on what is already in the barrels, and in some cases, already on the grapes.
> 
> The same thing occurs with yeast, the yeast that lives in the winemaking area and on the vines/grapes themselves is often allowed to conduct alcoholic fermentation without adding a commercially obtained yeast. Some folks refer to this as fermentation from natural or wild yeasts. Here in my hometown, I have no clue what kind of mutant yeasts are hanging around, I don't want them fermenting my grapes, so I use commercial yeast, even though there may be some yeast still on the grapes from the vineyard they are grown in.
> 
> For us home wine makers, who don't have resident yeasts and ML bacteria floating around our wine growing and production areas, getting an operating culture is much more difficult, that is why we inoculate our wine with the bacteria and / or yeast of our choosing.


johnd does that apply to grape wines only or is it used in country fruit and berry wines as well?
thank you
Dawg


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## G259 (May 13, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> are your wines country or do you do both country and traditional (grape)



I have done country wines exclusively, but was thinking about trying a kit. I thought about a Chardonnay, and thought that MLF would be beneficial.


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## hounddawg (May 13, 2020)

G259 said:


> I have done country wines exclusively, but was thinking about trying a kit. I thought about a Chardonnay, and thought that MLF would be beneficial.


agreed, but i am old and disabled, so i will keep to my country wines, i hope i have the time to break in a younger molly mull, before they take my other foot off,ght a several piece of 1/2 targets for a gun i'm having then i'll just make country wines, i hope to get p garden and i have bought a set of target for 600 yard plinking, 1/2 armor steel targets, these should keep me busy,,,
Dawg


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## G259 (May 13, 2020)

I thought about trying a red, but white wine usually goes twice as fast as red around here. Supply and demand!


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## Johnd (May 13, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> johnd does that apply to grape wines only or is it used in country fruit and berry wines as well?
> thank you
> Dawg


Richard, I'm not a big fruit wine maker, so I certainly can't speak for the entire regime of fruit wine makers; from my readings here on our forum, it seems that the vast majority of fruit wine makers do not conduct MLF on their fruit wines.

Some fruit wines contain a lot of malic acid. Apple, for example, has lots of it, if you were to conduct MLF of apple wine, it may completely change the taste profile of the wine by converting all of that malic to lactic acid. I don't know if that would be good or bad. In grape wine, as malic isn't present in huge numbers (tartaric is typically the predominant acid), so it just serves to smooth out the wine and take a little of the sharpness out of the acidity.


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## hounddawg (May 13, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Richard, I'm not a big fruit wine maker, so I certainly can't speak for the entire regime of fruit wine makers; from my readings here on our forum, it seems that the vast majority of fruit wine makers do not conduct MLF on their fruit wines.
> 
> Some fruit wines contain a lot of malic acid. Apple, for example, has lots of it, if you were to conduct MLF of apple wine, it may completely change the taste profile of the wine by converting all of that malic to lactic acid. I don't know if that would be good or bad. In grape wine, as malic isn't present in huge numbers (tartaric is typically the predominant acid), so it just serves to smooth out the wine and take a little of the sharpness out of the acidity.


just checking, i got country wines going back several years with no trouble, bt i keep seeing this sope about so i needed clarification,
thank you John 
Richard


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## hounddawg (May 13, 2020)

G259 said:


> I thought about trying a red, but white wine usually goes twice as fast as red around here. Supply and demand!


blackberry is fantastic 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (May 14, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> blackberry is fantastic
> Dawg


in the deer hunting areas i have tons of bair patches/blackberries and wild plum, i have lots of muscine, but never cultivated,, so in the treetops, i got one on a white oak tree is better then 4 foot hru and the muscadine on it looks better than 6 inches, that's where i go hide to relax,,,
Dawg


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## justsipn (May 18, 2020)

Quick question. I'm planning to rack my wine again next weekend. Last time, I racked it into the bucket, took the carboy outside, rinsed it out. I then sanitized it, rinsed it well again, then siphoned the wine back in. 

So, here's my question, I have a 350 foot well into the largest aquifer in North America. This water has been filtered down through sand..etc. for a very long time. Do I need to sanitize? Or, can I just rinse out the lees and put the wine back in?

I'm assuming the answer is, "always play it safe and sanitize everything every time". But, I thought I would ask.


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## winemaker81 (May 18, 2020)

justsipn said:


> I'm assuming the answer is, "always play it safe and sanitize everything every time". But, I thought I would ask.


Play it safe. It only take a few moments to rinse the carboy with K-meta water and shake out the residue.

Well water can have stuff growing in it. Safe enough for consumption, but it _may_ do bad things to your wine.


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## Rice_Guy (May 18, 2020)

Yes the water should be clean, ,,,, how about the pipes in your house and into the pump house and is there a 1000 cow CAFO in the township and is there a Dow Teflon plant up river in the watershed and is it run through a softener . . . On the property with my grape vines I had a water test as part of the purchase. . . a guess is you have had the water tested too, and you are clean

I have chlorinated city water so mine may have a lower bacterial count. ,,, and a greater chemical contaminants level. As @winemaker81 ,says , play safe


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## Sailor323 (May 19, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Quick question. I'm planning to rack my wine again next weekend. Last time, I racked it into the bucket, took the carboy outside, rinsed it out. I then sanitized it, rinsed it well again, then siphoned the wine back in.
> 
> So, here's my question, I have a 350 foot well into the largest aquifer in North America. This water has been filtered down through sand..etc. for a very long time. Do I need to sanitize? Or, can I just rinse out the lees and put the wine back in?
> 
> I'm assuming the answer is, "always play it safe and sanitize everything every time". But, I thought I would ask.


My water comes from a private well. I use it as is when I make a kit wine. I routinely just rinse the carboy without sanitizing if I just racked from it. Been doing it that way for 30 years.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Oh no...I may have made a bad beginners mistake. I went down stairs to get everything ready to rack my wine again this afternoon. Looking at my wine, I noticed the water in the airlock had evaporated enough that it wasn’t sealed anymore. It still had some water, but not enough. Please tell me this isn’t ruined. I have no clue how long it was like that....other than I don’t think it would have been more than a week or two.


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## Johnd (May 25, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Oh no...I may have made a bad beginners mistake. I went down stairs to get everything ready to rack my wine again this afternoon. Looking at my wine, I noticed the water in the airlock had evaporated enough that it wasn’t sealed anymore. It still had some water, but not enough. Please tell me this isn’t ruined. I have no clue how long it was like that....other than I don’t think it would have been more than a week or two.


Unless you had a lot of headspace, it's most likely just fine. Get it filled back up and carry on. Make sure to keep properly toppud up and stay on track with your sulfite additions if you are bulk aging, the sulfite will scavenge the oxygen out of the wine and ensure that it doesn't get oxidized.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Unless you had a lot of headspace, it's most likely just fine. Get it filled back up and carry on. Make sure to keep properly toppud up and stay on track with your sulfite additions if you are bulk aging, the sulfite will scavenge the oxygen out of the wine and ensure that it doesn't get oxidized.


Thank you. How do I know if it gets oxidized?


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## Rocky (May 25, 2020)

I bet you have one of those 3 piece airlocks! I like that they are easier to clean but the liquid seems to evaporate faster than the S-shaped airlocks, which I prefer.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Rocky said:


> I bet you have one of those 3 piece airlocks! I like that they are easier to clean but the liquid seems to evaporate faster than the S-shaped airlocks, which I prefer.


Yes, that’s the kind I have.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Thank you. How do I know if it gets oxidized?


The wine will take on a brownish cast and lose the fruity aromas.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Rocky said:


> The wine will take on a brownish cast and lose the fruity aromas.



This is what it looks like after around 7 weeks from start and racking it 3 weeks ago. Will rack again today.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2020)

Justsipn, that looks like more headspace than I would be comfortable with having. It appears to be a 6 gallon carboy. Do you have a 5 gallon carboy and some other containers like 1 gallon, 1/2 gallon, etc.? If you do, I suggest racking into a 5 gallon up to the neck of the carboy, i.e. where the diameter is relatively constant, and put the remainder into smaller containers. 

What variety is that? It appears to be okay. Do you notice any off odors? Is there still a fruity aroma? Have you tasted it?


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Unfo


Rocky said:


> Justsipn, that looks like more headspace than I would be comfortable with having. It appears to be a 6 gallon carboy. Do you have a 5 gallon carboy and some other containers like 1 gallon, 1/2 gallon, etc.? If you do, I suggest racking into a 5 gallon up to the neck of the carboy, i.e. where the diameter is relatively constant, and put the remainder into smaller containers.
> 
> What variety is that? It appears to be okay. Do you notice any off odors? Is there still a fruity aroma? Have you tasted it?


It’s Rhubarb wine Unfortunately, this is my only carboy. So, for this batch I will have to make do. Next batch I’m going to at least double the amount of fruit that will give me more juice and I should be able to fill it to the neck.

I just sampled some. SG is basically unchanged from 3 weeks ago at 1.00-.998.

PH is 3.24.

flavor is better than three weeks ago. Much of the bitterness is gone.

I’m actually surprised at how clear it is.

I don’t smell any off orders or taste any off flavors.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Unfo
> 
> It’s Rhubarb wine Unfortunately, this is my only carboy. So, for this batch I will have to make do. Next batch I’m going to at least double the amount of fruit that will give me more juice and I should be able to fill it to the neck.
> 
> ...



That is great to hear. For Rhubarb wine, it is looking very good. My understanding is that is a hard wine to clear. Did you use any clarifiers like bentonite, chitosan or kieselsol? I am not familiar with making with from anything but grapes, blackberries or cherries, so I am not the person to advise on clarifiers. There is a thread or two on the forum about making wine from other than grapes. You might try to find some info there or at least get the names of people who make such wines. I would start by searching the forum for "Rhubarb wine" and see where that leads.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Rocky said:


> That is great to hear. For Rhubarb wine, it is looking very good. My understanding is that is a hard wine to clear. Did you use any clarifiers like bentonite, chitosan or kieselsol? I am not familiar with making with from anything but grapes, blackberries or cherries, so I am not the person to advise on clarifiers. There is a thread or two on the forum about making wine from other than grapes. You might try to find some info there or at least get the names of people who make such wines. I would start by searching the forum for "Rhubarb wine" and see where that leads.



thanks, I’ve read some in that thread and @Rice_Guy has helped me a lot here along with others ..including you. Thanks again.

I have not used any clarifiers.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Is it strange that the SG didn’t change? Does that mean it probably won’t change much for the rest of the process?


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## Rocky (May 25, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Is it strange that the SG didn’t change? Does that mean it probably won’t change much for the rest of the process?


I would guess that it is finished fermenting. The wine would be considered "off dry" which is between sweet and dry. Should be a very nice tasting wine.


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2020)

Rhurbarb has consistently been an extremely easy wine for me to clear, It is very low on pectin. @justsipn i like your color, intense for a non colored wine.


Rocky said:


> . For Rhubarb wine, it is looking very good. My understanding is that is a hard wine to clear.


Thoughts for your next season; The rhurbarb I have been putting out has had 3% black raspberry for a blush color. , , , The plan for this year is one batch with 5% crab apple, crab will also create a blush and add tannic notes like a red grape. , , , I have used minimal water in rhurbarb blush which produces a high TA (1.1- 1.2%) and requires back sweetening to around 1.015. ,,, with the high TA low pH I have had it stuck and don't think it ever goes below 1.000, 2018 season stopped at 1.015 So I didn’t ever sweeten.
.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Rhurbarb has consistently been an extremely easy wine for me to clear. It is very low on pectin.
> 
> Thoughts for your next season; The rhurbarb I have been putting out has had 3% black raspberry for a blush color. , , , The plan for this year is one batch with 5% crab apple, crab will also create a blush and add tannic notes like a red grape. , , , I have used minimal water in rhurbarb blush which produces a high TA (1.1- 1.2%) and requires back sweetening to around 1.015.
> .


Is there a way to calculate the TA if I know the PH?

and, would wild plum be good?


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## Johnd (May 25, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Is there a way to calculate the TA if I know the PH?
> 
> and, would wild plum be good?


There’s no direct correlation between pH and TA, though there is a general relationship. Many times, low pH wines will have a high TA, and the inverse. This is not set in stone, so no, you can’t calculate TA by knowing the pH.


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## G259 (May 25, 2020)

TA - don't know. Wild plum sounds good though. Perhaps make a batch, and mix some with your rhubarb, to see if you might want to make a single batch with both fruits in it. I have never tried rhubarb wine, but I like me a good red with some plum notes in it! Have fun!


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2020)

Quick and dirty TA: can you taste it and find the flavor pleasing with a little sugar, (1.01 to 1.015 gravity), it will be OK. Theory if we spit it out the TA bite on the mouth is too high, and when we get down to it we do plan feeding it to our mouth. (TA means how much bite does the food have)
Complicated TA: Titratable 15 ml of test sample with 0.2 normal sodium hydroxide to a pH of 8.2,,, with a kids medicine syringe. The milliliters of titrant equals gm per liter or divide by 10 for percent


justsipn said:


> Is there a way to calculate the TA if I know the PH? . . and, would wild plum be good?


The plum I have is a Stanley blue plum. It does not have substantial color. Specific to wild plum, I would have to test it
A nice pink could be 1% frozen cranberry juice (organic WO apple) or triple berry blend frozen juice or red grape concentrate or cherry juice concentrate, and if I push the envelope Sensient Inc gave me red cabbage extract, about 10 ml in five gallons, or maybe their red beet extract. . . . I try ideas out small scale, sometimes it fails like watermelon color settles out leaving yucky slight pink.


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## justsipn (May 25, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Rhurbarb has consistently been an extremely easy wine for me to clear, It is very low on pectin. @justsipn i like your color, intense for a non colored wine.
> 
> Thoughts for your next season; The rhurbarb I have been putting out has had 3% black raspberry for a blush color. , , , The plan for this year is one batch with 5% crab apple, crab will also create a blush and add tannic notes like a red grape. , , , I have used minimal water in rhurbarb blush which produces a high TA (1.1- 1.2%) and requires back sweetening to around 1.015. ,,, with the high TA low pH I have had it stuck and don't think it ever goes below 1.000, 2018 season stopped at 1.015 So I didn’t ever sweeten.
> .


I do like your ideas for adding color. I’m sure they add some flavor too. The crab apple surprises me just because of the flavor.

This batch has actually 10 lbs of rhubard, 2 mix of strawberry, raspberry and blueberry. It’s basically what I could find in the grocery store that day.

I already have 15 lbs of rhubarb in the freezer and plan on getting at least 7-10 more before the next batch.


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## Rice_Guy (May 25, 2020)

Water has no TA and you did a six gallon, therefore my grams of acid content will be about 5 times higher than yours, yup I juiced 23 kg. You will not need to backsweeten much as I do. This is a style, I am aiming for knock your sox off impact. 
One variation a year back was peach rhurbarb. At low sugar it’s a rhurbarb yet at high sugar it was a peach. Humm, I guess I play with my food. Crabs, they are a short term way to find a bitter sweet apple feedstock for traditional balanced flavor cider.


justsipn said:


> The crab apple surprises me just because of the flavor. . . . .This batch has actually 10 lbs of rhubard, 2 mix of strawberry, raspberry and blueberry.


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## Rocky (May 26, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Rhurbarb has consistently been an extremely easy wine for me to clear, It is very low on pectin. @justsipn i like your color, intense for a non colored wine.
> 
> Thoughts for your next season; The rhurbarb I have been putting out has had 3% black raspberry for a blush color. , , , The plan for this year is one batch with 5% crab apple, crab will also create a blush and add tannic notes like a red grape. , , , I have used minimal water in rhurbarb blush which produces a high TA (1.1- 1.2%) and requires back sweetening to around 1.015. ,,, with the high TA low pH I have had it stuck and don't think it ever goes below 1.000, 2018 season stopped at 1.015 So I didn’t ever sweeten.
> .



That was not my understanding re clearing and I stand corrected. As I said I don't generally make wine from anything other than grapes. Thank you for the correction. Not too old to learn but I have to be getting close.


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## justsipn (Jun 7, 2020)

OK, basically 9 weeks into my rhubarb wine. Racked it twice. The last time was two weeks ago. I'm surprised that stuff (Lees??) are still settling out. But, I'm guessing that means it's clarifying even more. Color still looks great.

So, questions:

a) If the specific gravity isn't changing, that means it's not fermenting anymore...correct? But, it should be a better wine in November than it is now. So....if it's not fermenting, what exactly is it doing between now and then to make it better?

b) Do I do anything between now and then? I plan on racking it again right before bottling. (or, basically as I bottle it?). Do you check the SG or PH as it's aging in the carboy? Taste it??? If so, how often???

This wine making thing takes patience. 

PS...I topped off the carboy all the way to the neck as recommended above. So, there shouldn't be hardly any oxygen in it.


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## Chuck E (Jun 7, 2020)

A) Wine is a living thing. The changes that occur during bulk aging have to do with chemical reactions taking place. Things like polymerization, micro-oxidation and others. Fermentation is just the beginning of the process. 

B) Most of us probably rack it a week before bottling. At that time, you make sure to get your K-meta levels just right. I don't check the SG during bulk aging, I will test the pH before my last K-meta addition. 

And I sneak a little taste every now and again...


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## G259 (Jun 7, 2020)

I would rack again, 3 months apart, then sweeten and bottle. I have tested the SG of commercial wines, and it ranged from an SG of .995 (Sav. Blanc) to 1.005 (Reisling). However I THINK that, it might matter how high the PH was or how much acid blend was added. I had a wine that I 'slipped' on the sugar addition, and it was way too high for me, I was told here to add acid blend, and sure enough it worked! The sugar was still there, but the acid blend balanced it, so you almost couldn't tell. That's why you 'bench test' while adding sugar, you can't go backward, so add a little at a time, then sample (I love bench testing!)


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 8, 2020)

Wine making ——— for quality ———takes patience
* You could be drinking now if you wanted, you would need to take actions to stabelize since you should expect live yeast for about 9 months! Not seeing a change in gravity means that metabolism has slowed ... the yeast are stressed/ resting/ waiting for a change in conditions/ if you sweeten your rhurbarb this could create an explosion.
* I probably am a lazy wine maker, last year’s rhurbarb was racked only three times. I will not rack based on a calendar, l will rack based on need, ie has a lot of solids settled and it is ready/ compact. Currently there is a nine month old cyser going with a solid cork, the plan is let it sit a year (or maybe two) before I open it again. ,,, I won’t worry about topping off or proper size carboy this way, ,,, peach and plum (high pectin fruits) take forever too.
* @Chuck E said expect to add potassium metabisulphite when you open the carboy, it is living, exposure to oxygen damages the wine (unless you are targeting sherry flavor) If you use campden a 0.5 gram tablet does 5 gallons otherwise 0.1 gram powder per gallon.


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## justsipn (Jun 8, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Wine making ——— for quality ———takes patience
> * You could be drinking now if you wanted, you would need to take actions to stabelize since you should expect live yeast for about 9 months! Not seeing a change in gravity means that metabolism has slowed ... the yeast are stressed/ resting/ waiting for a change in conditions/ if you sweeten your rhurbarb this could create an explosion.
> * I probably am a lazy wine maker, last year’s rhurbarb was racked only three times. I will not rack based on a calendar, l will rack based on need, ie has a lot of solids settled and it is ready/ compact. Currently there is a nine month old cyser going with a solid cork, the plan is let it sit a year (or maybe two) before I open it again. ,,, I won’t worry about topping off or proper size carboy this way, ,,, peach and plum (high pectin fruits) take forever too.
> * @Chuck E *said expect to add potassium metabisulphite when you open the carboy,* it is living, exposure to oxygen damages the wine (unless you are targeting sherry flavor) If you use campden a 0.5 gram tablet does 5 gallons otherwise 0.1 gram powder per gallon.


When you say the bolded. Do you literally mean every time you take the airlock off no matter for what or for how short of time? I have only added at the beginning then when I racked it.


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 8, 2020)

My use of meta has evolved with time. Ten years ago I wouldn’t, ie was sloppy with meta. The result was a percentage of the wine had burn in the back of the throat feel. ,,, Then I went into assume that there is zero and add 25 ppm every activity. ,,, About a year back the wife of a vinters club member mentioned that she could taste SO2 so I had over done it.
Currently any activity more than a month apart will get meta. Logic for this, the quantity of oxygen needed to saturate water is approximately equal to the normal head space on a 750 ml bottle, ie a small volume of air is a significant risk of oxidation, ,,, oxidation isn’t an instantaneous reaction so I assume there is some cut off less than a month where fresh oxygen it isnt an additional risk factor.


justsipn said:


> When you say the bolded. Do you literally mean every time you take the airlock off no matter for what? I have only added at the beginning then when I racked it.


With a vinmetrica today I should do a project where I track SO2 before and after typical activities, to better gage risk.
For those who own the DO meter I am curious if anyone has done before and after to gage risk.


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## justsipn (Jun 8, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Currently any activity more than a month apart will get meta.


So, since I've added it three times in less than two months, I should be fine. Going forward, if I check the SG and taste it in a couple months, I should add some when I open it.


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 8, 2020)

In a few months it will be wise to add 25 ppm.
Our high limit is folks will taste SO2 at about 200 ppm. If we have three additions to date we never get close to 200 so only .1% of customers or so will taste sulphite.

Without a measured number we are guessing about protective level. Red grape wines do well at holding SO2. Fruits seem to oxidize excessively. , ,,, All in all I have done what you have done and only got serious off taste with fruits after a year age.


justsipn said:


> So, since I've added it three times in less than two months, I should be fine. Going forward, if I check the SG and taste it in a couple months, I should add some when I open it.


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## justsipn (Jun 8, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> In a few months it will be wise to add 25 ppm.
> Our high limit is folks will taste SO2 at about 200 ppm. If we have three additions to date we never get close to 200 so only .1% of customers or so will taste sulphite.
> 
> Without a measured number we are guessing about protective level. Red grape wines do well at holding SO2. Fruits seem to oxidize excessively. , ,,, All in all I have done what you have done and only got serious off taste with fruits after a year age.


Just for clarification on what you are saying here. If I've added meta three times, I've added 75 ppm. The max you would ever do is add meta 8 times (8 x 25 = 200).

Correct?


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 8, 2020)

* I am a firm believer that most home wine makers will improve the finished product by using the maximum meta at each transfer. ie oxidation is the biggest risk factor we face with 7 gallon carboys, and the primary tool fight chemical oxidation is metabisulphite, ,,, or learning tricks to improve my technique whenever I open a carboy.
* I am not commercial so I probably had more than 200 ppm on the one cherry wine, that a wife at club meeting tasted and told me what the defect was, uneducated I wouldn’t have paid attention to the flavor. At some point, I will go over 200 again, ex if I try to save a wine with white film floating on the surface
* From a commercial point of view 8 mechanical interventions are a lot, most of the products life is sealed away from air. As a home wine maker who doesn’t barrel age my normal might be 4 mechanical interventions,,,, it never gets to be an issue.
* All this said my mindset (background) is weird, I don’t follow recipes, ,,, usually. I try to ask what is the FDA or health department rule that a recipe is encouraging me to accomplish. 


justsipn said:


> Just for clarification on what you are saying here. If I've added meta three times, I've added 75 ppm. The max you would ever do is add meta 8 times (8 x 25 = 200)


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## justsipn (Jun 8, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> * I am a firm believer that most home wine makers will improve the finished product by using the maximum meta at each transfer. ie oxidation is the biggest risk factor we face with 7 gallon carboys, and the primary tool fight chemical oxidation is metabisulphite, ,,, or learning tricks to improve my technique whenever I open a carboy.
> * I am not commercial so I probably had more than 200 ppm on the one cherry wine, that a wife at club meeting tasted and told me what the defect was, uneducated I wouldn’t have paid attention to the flavor. At some point, I will go over 200 again, ex if I try to save a wine with white film floating on the surface
> * From a commercial point of view 8 mechanical interventions are a lot, most of the products life is sealed away from air. As a home wine maker who doesn’t barrel age my normal might be 4 mechanical interventions,,,, it never gets to be an issue.
> * All this said my mindset (background) is weird, I don’t follow recipes, ,,, usually. I try to ask what is the FDA or health department rule that a recipe is encouraging me to accomplish.


That was my thought. There is no way I'm going to mess with this wine 8+ times. At most, I guess I might rack it again in three months, once one week before bottling and then bottling. That will probably be sometime in late October or November. So, I guess I could see me adding more meta twice more.


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## justsipn (Jul 18, 2020)

Ok, racked my wine again as planned three weeks after last time.

.996 SG
3.39 PH
13.04 ABV
Very nice pale rhubarb color.
clearing very nice.

Nice fruity flavor....except one thing. It seems to have a part of its flavor as somewhat of more of an alcohol flavor than your typical wine. My wife said it’s dry. But, to me it’s different than a dry taste. It’s not a spoiled taste

So, question, is this typical at this stage and will this mellow as it ages over the next 5-6 months? won’t touch now again till then.

It was started on April 4th. 

I’m probably going to back sweeten it.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 19, 2020)

New wine normally is sharper on the tongue for a variety of reasons including Needing to complete normal aging which will round off the 'sharpness' and secondly to permit the CO2 to dissipate - it also makes a new wine sharper on the tongue. 
Dryness is the final step. A little back-sweetening will resolve that and that doesn't have to make it sweet, just to help bring back more of the original fruit flavor.
This is purely personal - But I would wait until just before bottling time to do the back-sweetening. That way 1) the sorbate isn't going to age out as soon, & 2) The sharpness will be gone making more accurate back-sweetening possible. It's one of those personal choices along with how long to age it. Folks who've actually made Rhubarb wine can probably give you better estimates on how long the wine should age.
5-6 months is a good place to start and the means you should plan on one more racking at least between now and the end of aging (Most folks rack about every 3 months.)


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## justsipn (Jul 19, 2020)

Thanks for the input and I was hoping that would be the case with the taste. I do plan on back sweetening right before bottling.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 19, 2020)

I agree with the others -- post fermentation, don't rack any more often then every 3 months. Some folks rack every 6 months and seem to do ok.

How long to bulk age? That varies dramatically from 2 weeks to 2 years. For non-grape wines, I typically do 3 to 6 months from start to bottling, unless there is a reason to keep it longer.

Non-grape wines generally benefit from some level of back sweetening, it brings out the fruit and reduces or eliminates the astringency some dry fruit wines have.

Bench tests are a good idea -- add a small amount of sugar to a small amount of wine, stir well and taste. When you get to the point where you think it needs _just a bit more_, stop. Extrapolate the amount of sugar for the large batch and start adding.

I strongly recommend adding the sugar (or sugar syrup) in small amounts, stir well, and taste. If you miscalculated the amount of sugar needed, you'll catch it before you add too much. Remember, it's a lot easier to add more sugar than to take some out .....

A drill-mounted stirring rod helps greatly in ensuring the sugar is mixed in.


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 20, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Wine making ——— for quality ———takes patience
> * You could be drinking now if you wanted, you would need to take actions to stabelize since you should expect live yeast for about 9 months! Not seeing a change in gravity means that metabolism has slowed ... the yeast are stressed/ resting/ waiting for a change in conditions/ if you sweeten your rhurbarb this could create an explosion.
> * I probably am a lazy wine maker, last year’s rhurbarb was racked only three times. I will not rack based on a calendar, l will rack based on need, ie has a lot of solids settled and it is ready/ compact. Currently there is a nine month old cyser going with a solid cork, the plan is let it sit a year (or maybe two) before I open it again. ,,, I won’t worry about topping off or proper size carboy this way, ,,, peach and plum (high pectin fruits) take forever too.
> * @Chuck E said expect to add potassium metabisulphite when you open the carboy, it is living, exposure to oxygen damages the wine (unless you are targeting sherry flavor) If you use campden a 0.5 gram tablet does 5 gallons otherwise 0.1 gram powder per gallon.


Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy


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## KCCam (Jul 20, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy


I believe that dose is normal when adding to your must at the very beginning when using fresh fruit, 24 hours before pitching the yeast and after fermentation with sorbate to stabilize the wine to prevent further fermentation and to protect it from oxidation. Then about every 3 months or so when you rack wine that is bulk aging.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 20, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy



no, you didn't mess up campden tablets are ONE per gallon and that's added at the beginning and/or also at the every three months racking. Or 1/4 tsp of KMeta.


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## KCCam (Jul 20, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> no, you didn't mess up campden tablets are ONE per gallon and that's added at the beginning and/or also at the every three months racking. Or 1/4 tsp of KMeta.


Ah, sorry, I did make a mistake above. It is edited now.


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 21, 2020)

You did not screw up, you just added a lot of meta all at once, and most folks won’t be able to taste it. Worst case, ,,, I occasionally do an “OH! sugar” as adding a slug of Kmeta to a pail of cherries or yesterday to gooseberry and finding that the pigment is NOT SO2 stable and my nice pink or red color is gone.(FYI SO2 is used to decolonize the artificially colored candy fruit you find in Christmas stollen) (a Campden tablet is about 0.5 grams)


DizzyIzzy said:


> Riceguy..................Did I understand you correctly that one Campden tab can treat 5 gallons? If that is so I have screwed up royally because I added five Campden tabs to a 5 gallon batch. Is there anyway I can reverse/treat that batch?...........................Dizzy


my SO2 goal is:
crush/ primary . . . . 50 ppm meta . . . 0.190 gm/gallon. . 0.050 gm/liter
rack #2,#3,etc. . . . . 25 ppm meta . . . 0.095 gm/gallon . . .0.025 gm/liter
bottle sweet white . 80 ppm meta . . . 0.303 gm/gallon . . .0.080 gm/liter
bottle dry white . . . 60 ppm meta . . . 0.227 gm/gallon . . .0.060 gm/liter
bottle dry red . . . . . 40 ppm meta . . . 0.152 gm/gallon . . .0.040 gm/ liter

*ref:Growing Grapes and Making Wine in Cold Climates, pg92
table ref: Jack Keller
*from experience 1 tsp meta powder = 5.9n grams or 1/4 tsp per 5 gallon carboy gives approx 50 ppm.
*you can cut a Campden tablet to approximate less chemical weight
*Younger folk keep mentioning a sulphite calculator on the web ex Winemaking Magazine. If I was lazy or did not own a Vinmetrica to make life simple I would assume zero SO2 at each transfer and add Kmeta as recommended which hopefully produces a bit above target. ,,,, acetaldehyde is the main risk and most folks taste it at a low concentration, 150 mg/liter
*As a fruit wine maker I control pH and run low, 3.2 to 3.3 target which means a higher percentage of the meta is available as SO2 the active chemical.

In being a wine judge I have observed a lot of home wine makers produce tastable acetaldehyde. . . SO! . . . you are better of with more rather than less!


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 23, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> no, you didn't mess up campden tablets are ONE per gallon and that's added at the beginning and/or also at the every three months racking. Or 1/4 tsp of KMeta.


1/4 tsp. K-meta per gallon?.............................................Dizzy


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## DizzyIzzy (Jul 23, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> You did not screw up, you just added a lot of meta all at once, and most folks won’t be able to taste it. Worst case, ,,, I occasionally do an “OH! sugar” as adding a slug of Kmeta to a pail of cherries or yesterday to gooseberry and finding that the pigment is NOT SO2 stable and my nice pink or red color is gone.(FYI SO2 is used to decolonize the artificially colored candy fruit you find in Christmas stollen) (a Campden tablet is about 0.5 grams)
> my SO2 goal is:
> crush/ primary . . . . 50 ppm meta . . . 0.190 gm/gallon. . 0.050 gm/liter
> rack #2,#3,etc. . . . . 25 ppm meta . . . 0.095 gm/gallon . . .0.025 gm/liter
> ...


Rice-guy, If I am reading this correctly, and to implant it in my VERY novice brain, when racking #2, #3, or #4 one would add 1/8 tsp. of K-meta (because that would = the 25 ppm meta)? I thought 1/4 tsp. was to be used at each racking?...................Dizzy


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## Chuck E (Jul 23, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> 1/4 tsp. K-meta per gallon?.............................................Dizzy



1/4 tsp. Kmeta per 5 gallons


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## justsipn (Oct 8, 2020)

Ok....my rhubarb wine is at 6 months. About to bottle it and it’s amazingly clear. But, it still has a slight bitter taste.

can someone have an idea why?

will it go away with aging?

im about to bottle it and hoping it will go away with aging.
Thanks.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 9, 2020)

Sugar should be able to fix/ balance it.
A guess is the bitter is residual CO2 in which case it will not go away. Can you pull a vacuum on a sample and then recheck the flavor?


justsipn said:


> Ok....my rhubarb wine is at 6 months. About to bottle it and it’s amazingly clear. But, it still has a slight bitter taste.
> 
> can someone have an idea why?
> 
> ...


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## justsipn (Oct 10, 2020)

I’m not sure what you mean by pulling a vacuum.

Can you explain?

And, how do I prevent residual CO2 with future wine?


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 10, 2020)

justsipn said:


> I’m not sure what you mean by pulling a vacuum. Can you explain?
> And, how do I prevent residual CO2 with future wine?


* to create a vacuum usually is done with a vacuum pump, some of us have dedicated pumps, others have garage tools like a break bleeder or wine tools like a vacuvin (used to preserve wine, a small vacuum pump) From your answer I will guess you haven’t collected unusual tools.
* CO2 is your friend since it helps flush oxygen out. Yes it has a flavor similar to seltzer water and is in sodas with sweeteners so it can be a good as well as a bad. For your rhubarb I would pull a sample glass (or jelly jar),, microwave for 45 seconds,, then stir with a spoon to whip the gas out,, allow it to cool and then taste it again to see if the objectionable flavor is gone. (if flavor remains the issue isn’t CO2)
The process of removing CO2 is called degassing, kits will tell one to stir your carboy with a wine whip on a drill or a long spoon. At 6 months under an airlock it should be pretty good, just evaporating by itself,,,, if so, we need to get more feel for how much “slight” is. ex. cranberry juice has sweet notes first followed by acid followed by a longer lasting bitter, this is just the way God made that fruit.
Again sugar is used in fruit juices and sodas to balance flavor, have you tried this? The US beverage market is dominated by sweet flavors.


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## justsipn (Oct 10, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> * to create a vacuum usually is done with a vacuum pump, some of us have dedicated pumps, others have garage tools like a break bleeder or wine tools like a vacuvin (used to preserve wine, a small vacuum pump) From your answer I will guess you haven’t collected unusual tools.
> * CO2 is your friend since it helps flush oxygen out. Yes it has a flavor similar to seltzer water and is in sodas with sweeteners so it can be a good as well as a bad. For your rhubarb I would pull a sample glass (or jelly jar),, microwave for 45 seconds,, then stir with a spoon to whip the gas out,, allow it to cool and then taste it again to see if the objectionable flavor is gone. (if flavor remains the issue isn’t CO2)
> The process of removing CO2 is called degassing, kits will tell one to stir your carboy with a wine whip on a drill or a long spoon. At 6 months under an airlock it should be pretty good, just evaporating by itself,,,, if so, we need to get more feel for how much “slight” is. ex. cranberry juice has sweet notes first followed by acid followed by a longer lasting bitter, this is just the way God made that fruit.
> Again sugar is used in fruit juices and sodas to balance flavor, have you tried this? The US beverage market is dominated by sweet flavors.


Ok, no, I don’t have a vacuum pump. Are you saying that would suck the CO2 out of the wine?

that’s a really interesting experiment with the microwave. I’m going to have to try that. I’m assuming the heat dissipates the CO2 somehow?

I believe it is less bitter than the last time I tried it about 3 months ago. Should I have degassed it at some point? Can I still degas it?

it’s always interesting describing something like taste. It’s nowhere close to as bitter as cranberry juice.When I first taste it,I think...hmmm....this is good, but right at the end it has just enough bitterness that it’s what you’re left thinking about.
When I bottle it, I wish I could trade you bottles so I could taste a really good rhubarb wine and you could taste what I’m tasting.

I feel like I’m very close to having a pretty decent wine for my very first try. But, I can’t Reduce the bitterness, it might be a little disappointing.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 11, 2020)

Q? how many toys do you want?

Easy to try,,, A very inexpensive way to test is a vacuum cleaner with a bung on the suction pipe, it will pull about 5 inches which isn’t a lot but if you let it suck for a day will do the job, ,,, but is loud.
I use an inexpensive 12 volt pump which will pull 19 inches on basically all siphons and vacuum corking and testing samples.
The folks who do lots wind up with the all-in-one, which is a good place to start since Steve has videos on YouTube that show how to do it. This system will suck down to 24 inches mercury which will degas as fast as one can rack wine. Steve is a sponsor of WMT so he has lots of posts here if you search above menu bar.
,,, by the way, heat doesn’t dissipate the CO2 but gas is more soluble in water at lower temperature.

Bitter isn’t necessarily bad, at low levels it adds complexity to a food. A contest wine will score higher if it has ingredients which produce long flavor notes. The normal way to add this trait is to add 1/2 tsp tannin, however I am tending to natural sources as 5% crab apples or cranberry in a recipie. Again remember sugar is magic, ,, it will provide a front flavor note that balances the later bitter note, ,,,, and keeps you interested in consuming the food, as soda will.Q? do you enjoy drinking flat soda? try the microwave test on soda also. Do you like coffee? caffeine is the lab standard used to calibrate bitter tastes.


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## Prairie Vino (Oct 11, 2020)

justsipn, I've been wanting to try a rhubarb wine, could you message me your recipe? 
Prairie Vino


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## justsipn (Oct 11, 2020)

Prairie Vino said:


> justsipn, I've been wanting to try a rhubarb wine, could you message me your recipe?
> Prairie Vino


In the original post in this thread I described my original process.

however, I would suggest getting more info from others. I gather I’m pretty lucky this one is somewhat turning out.

One thing I will change next time is using more fruit. I used around 12 lbs of fruit this batch, I will at least double it next time.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 12, 2020)

Most non-grape wines benefit from a bit of sweetening. Doesn't have to be a lot, but it completely changes the perception of the wine.
If you backsweeten, you need to add potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite to prevent a renewed fermentation in the bottle.


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## justsipn (Oct 12, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> Most non-grape wines benefit from a bit of sweetening. Doesn't have to be a lot, but it completely changes the perception of the wine.
> If you backsweeten, you need to add potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite to prevent a renewed fermentation in the bottle.



Thanks, Someone in this thread went through the whole process of back sweetening in a post. I'll try to find that and follow his process.

Question though, if my SG is .998 and I want to get to 1.000, is there generally an idea of how much sugar in a 5 gallon carboy that would take? Since I have never done this before, I have no idea if it would be a tablespoon or 3 cups.



Edit: Haaa....found the post and it was from you. Thanks for the info.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 12, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Thanks, Someone in this thread went through the whole process of back sweetening in a post. I'll try to find that and follow his process.
> 
> Question though, if my SG is .998 and I want to get to 1.000, is there generally an idea of how much sugar in a 5 gallon carboy that would take? Since I have never done this before, I have no idea if it would be a tablespoon or 3 cups.



Fermcalc is your friend! FermCalc Winemaking Calculator


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## justsipn (Oct 12, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Fermcalc is your friend! FermCalc Winemaking Calculator


Thanks....but that site is confusing.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 12, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Question though, if my SG is .998 and I want to get to 1.000, is there generally an idea of how much sugar in a 5 gallon carboy that would take? Since I have never done this before, I have no idea if it would be a tablespoon or 3 cups.


IMO that is the not the best approach. The SG is not important, it's the taste. I use this method:

Stabilize the wine with sorbate and sulfite to prevent a renewed fermentation. Pour a small glass of the base wine and reserve it. Add 1/4 cup sugar to the carboy and stir well (sugar syrup blends better). Taste the wine, and contrast against the base wine as you feel the need.

Repeat until you think the wine _needs just a bit more_ -- then stop. [Remember that's it's much harder to take the sugar back out than to put more in.]

This can be done in 1/8 cup increments, or any measure you desire. IME 1/4 cup increments works for 5 US gallon carboys, but everyone has different tastes.

Some folks advocate bench testing, e.g., make up small samples in glasses and taste, choosing your favorite. This requires correctly figuring out how much sugar went into the chosen sample and then correctly extrapolating how much sugar to add to the carboy. I find that more difficult to get right. If you do this, add half the calculated amount of sugar and stir well. Add in increments, stirring and tasting. If you calculated wrong, this helps prevent making an overly sweet wine.

Either way, record your final SG so you'll know the residual sugar.


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## justsipn (Oct 12, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> IMO that is the not the best approach. The SG is not important, it's the taste. I use this method:
> 
> Stabilize the wine with sorbate and sulfite to prevent a renewed fermentation. Pour a small glass of the base wine and reserve it. Add 1/4 cup sugar to the carboy and stir well (sugar syrup blends better). Taste the wine, and contrast against the base wine as you feel the need.
> 
> ...


OK...thanks. That is what I would like to do. Calculating the amount of sugar for 5 gallons based off of a 4 oz sample seemed to me to be something that could be really off. In cooking, sometimes something like a seasoning can't easily be proportioned to large quantities from a normal recipe. I was thinking the same here.

I think I'm going to rack rack it, then do this process of sweetening, then bottle in about a week.


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## G259 (Oct 12, 2020)

. . . and if you do over sweeten the wine a bit, add some acid blend to balance it. The sugar will still be there, but it won't taste as sweet. I found that out here, when I slipped with the sugar while back sweetening. '. . . just a little more, . . . a little more . . . ', then it gives way like an avalanche! Lol!


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## winemanden (Oct 13, 2020)

Adding sugar? Personally, just my taste of course, I think a lot of fruit wines are spoiled by too much alcohol. Over 12% ABV is too high for dry wines. Sweet wines yes. I'm not saying you shouldn't sweeten up your wines. In a lot of cases it does make a big difference. Maybe it's just my weird preference, but I often do want to drink more than one glass with my meals. Social drinking, I love sweet wines with a good ABV, but not with my dinner.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 13, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> From an industry point of view, it would be wasting time unless it was for a paper in Journal of Food science and even there since the goal is for the audience to believe a foot note pointing out that grape and country wine follow the rule would pass.
> 
> View attachment 64995
> 
> the key is TA is a tool which is useful in producing acceptable product


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## justsipn (Oct 13, 2020)

winemanden said:


> Adding sugar? Personally, just my taste of course, I think a lot of fruit wines are spoiled by too much alcohol. Over 12% ABV is too high for dry wines. Sweet wines yes. I'm not saying you shouldn't sweeten up your wines. In a lot of cases it does make a big difference. Maybe it's just my weird preference, but I often do want to drink more than one glass with my meals. Social drinking, I love sweet wines with a good ABV, but not with my dinner.


So, do you think sweetening it reduces the flavor of the alcohol?


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## Chuck E (Oct 13, 2020)

justsipn said:


> So, do you think sweetening it reduces the flavor of the alcohol?



Based on my bench testing, I think a tiny amount of sugar brings out the fruitiness of the wine. After my wines have aged 6+ months, if they still taste "sharp" or tart, I go for back sweetening.


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## BernardSmith (Oct 13, 2020)

The thing about wine is balance and so it's not so much a matter of sugar "reducing" the heat of the alcohol but when you make a wine you want a number of things to be nicely balanced - the amount of alcohol, the richness of the flavor the wine has coming from the fruit or flowers or honey or whatever is the main ingredient in the wine; the amount of acidity in the wine; the perceived sweetness; the tannin content (how astringent the wine is); and the mouthfeel (how viscous is the wine: does it coat your tongue and mouth and linger or does it simply disappear the moment you swallow). The more alcohol there is in a wine the more these other factors need to help balance the alcohol. And as Chuck E notes fruit wines (country wines) often need a little sweetness to help bring forward the flavor of the fruit.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 14, 2020)

alcohol has a sweet flavor, I can graph “normal” for gravity against TA and predict an acceptable finished soda, however the TA is lower because of the effect of alcohol.


justsipn said:


> So, do you think sweetening it reduces the flavor of the alcohol?


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## winemanden (Oct 14, 2020)

As Chuck E and Bernard Smith point out, a touch of sugar often helps with fruit flavour. I was just voicing my opinion on fruit table wines - and that includes Grape. Table wines should enhance your dinner, not get you sloshed.


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## G259 (Oct 14, 2020)

I suppose that all new winemakers go through that. I did, when I made one of my first wines, an apple. I finished it at 16 -17%, not great but, Woooo! I still can't get myself to go below 1.090 to start though!


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## winemanden (Oct 16, 2020)

G259 said:


> I suppose that all new winemakers go through that. I did, when I made one of my first wines, an apple. I finished it at 16 -17%, not great but, Woooo! I still can't get myself to go below 1.090 to start though!


As you like it. Your wine should be made to your personal taste, after all you're going to be drinking most of it. A lot of members have criticized the late Jack Keller's recipes, but that was his taste. We're not all the same thank goodness.
My own personal taste is for table wines that are not too high ABV, but I wouldn't reject a glass of yours if you were kind enough to offer it to me.


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## justsipn (Oct 19, 2020)

Ok....I’m really confused now. Totally. 

ok....I racked my rhubarb wine for the last time. I took some out to taste.
Since July 13 the SG went from .996 to 1.000. Is that possible on its own?

then, it lost almost all its taste. Seriously, it had a nice fruit flavor but bitter, now almost nothing.

So, we back sweetened it till it had almost the same flavor as before. 3/4 cup syrup.

so, we capped off the carboy and came upstairs.

we looked at the original glass of wine and it had become cloudy. It was perfectly clear.

What the heck is going on?


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## G259 (Oct 19, 2020)

All I can say, is to backtrack to when it was clear, what was added? It's obvious that SOMETHING changed. I added lime juice to my 1 gallon wine,for acid. Cloudy now, I should have just added acid blend! It tastes good, and only 1 gallon, 'Que sera, sera'!


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 20, 2020)

? Gravity with 3/4 cup syrup? you made syrup or wine conditioner? Turbidity usually goes along with adding a chemical (sorbate?)

gravity change of 0.004 testing error? cool temp will be more dense, CO2 bubbles, I look at 0.002 as normal error between two of my hygrometers and in the scheme of things 2 doesn’t matter.

loss of taste? you have a low fruit to water ratio? blowing flavor off with time over summer? oxidation from too much head space? things taste different at different times of day or what y’all ate before? thin wine doesn’t have a lot of flavor? (TA?)


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## Johnd (Oct 20, 2020)

justsipn said:


> Ok....I’m really confused now. Totally.
> 
> ok....I racked my rhubarb wine for the last time. I took some out to taste.
> Since July 13 the SG went from .996 to 1.000. Is that possible on its own?
> ...


Did you recently put potassium sorbate in your wine to prevent restarting fermentation?


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## justsipn (Oct 20, 2020)

After I racked it, I added K meta and sorbate before I started adding the sugar. I made a sugar syrup like was described in this thread with one cup water and two cups sugar. Heating and stirring till clear then let cool to room temp.

I forgot to check SG after I added the sugar. I’ll do that tonight.

Ive always had a pretty good fruit flavor and I’ve always topped off the carboy with purchased wine, not water. So, I’m not sure how if could have become lighter or diluted.

I’ve had it topped off all the way up to the small neck for a long time. So, maybe a couple inches below the airlock.


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## Johnd (Oct 20, 2020)

justsipn said:


> After I racked it, I added K meta and sorbate before I started adding the sugar. I made a sugar syrup like was described in this thread with one cup water and two cups sugar. Heating and stirring till clear then let cool to room temp.
> 
> I forgot to check SG after I added the sugar. I’ll do that tonight.


Good. I’ve sweetened lotsa stuff over the years and never had a clouding issue, never used simple syrup, just straight sugar, though that shouldn’t be an issue.


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## justsipn (Oct 20, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Good. I’ve sweetened lotsa stuff over the years and never had a clouding issue, never used simple syrup, just straight sugar, though that shouldn’t be an issue.



the cloudiness was in my control glass. The one that didn’t get sweetened.


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## Johnd (Oct 20, 2020)

justsipn said:


> the cloudiness was in my control glass. The one that didn’t get sweetened.


Dang, that didnt register right in my brain when I read it. Glad it’s not your whole batch.


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## winemanden (Oct 20, 2020)

justsipn said:


> the cloudiness was in my control glass. The one that didn’t get sweetened.


The old lady who first showed me how to make country wines, way back last mid century, used to put a glass of her wine on the mantelpiece with a beer mat on top and leave it for a day. She said that if it turns cloudy, or a drastic colour change, or throws a deposit, then your wine is not ready. Not very scientific, she never heard of a hydrometer, but it seemed to work for her. She did make some wonderful wines though.


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## KCCam (Oct 20, 2020)

G259 said:


> It's obvious that SOMETHING changed.


I agree with @G259, SOMETHING changed. 2 things that come to mind for the cloudiness are temperature (colder or warmer), and is there possibly any chance the glass wasn’t clean? Dust? Soap residue? Etc. Can you repeat the effect? Adding syrup is unlikely to *reduce *cloudiness. 

As for SG: measurement error is certainly possible. It doesn’t take much extra weight (water drops from rinsing the hydrometer) to reduce the reading, or buoyancy (bubbles from CO2) to raise it. Also make sure the hydrometer bulb is not touching the side of the test jar. Check the hydrometer in plain water. Tap water is fine as long as it’s at room temperature, it should be the same every time you check it, not necessarily 1.000. If it’s not measurement error, then again, SOMETHING has changed. Temperature is unlikely the culprit as it takes about 8°F to change 0.001. To raise the SG, something with a higher density is being added (what’s the SG of the wine you use to top up?), or something is being removed (evaporation? - unlikely), or some chemical reaction is taking place to produce a more dense liquid.

Have you ruled out a practical joke? I could see this as being a VERY easy way for someone to get a LOT of laughs!


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## justsipn (Oct 20, 2020)

Ok....the SG after adding the sugar is 1.006. Or, three marks down from 1.000.

a lot of the taste has come back.


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## justsipn (Oct 26, 2020)

Bottled the rhubarb wine yesterday and that was fun. It turned out to be, what we would call, a semi sweet white wine and the bitter taste went away after we back sweetened it a week ago. It's going to be really interesting to see if it changes (improves) as it ages in the bottle. 

Now, it's on to a kit I purchased of Malbec. 

It's nice that my first attempt wasn't a total disaster and that is in large part to the great advice I got from here. Thank you all VERY much!!!


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## justsipn (Feb 1, 2021)

justsipn said:


> Hello, I'm new to wine making and am enjoying it so far. Haven't been able to try my first batch, so that might change.
> 
> I have a couple quick questions. Just a little back ground. I'm making rhubarb wine. I'm starting with that basically because it's what I have and it sounded fun. I found a recipe and video of it on line. I purchased a fairly nice starter kit and got a few pointers from the place I bought the kit from.
> 
> ...


Ok, revisiting this thread. I bottled this wine and we have been pretty happy with the results. So, in the next month or two, I'm going to start my second batch. Remembering some comments here, I understand my process and recipe wasn't exactly what others use. So, I'm planning on tweaking what I did. Last summer, I cut and froze 25 lbs of rhubarb and I have 5 lbs of strawberries. I'm wanting a little more of a robust fruit flavor in this one.

So, my plan is, to use 25 lbs of sugar (it seems like most use about a lb of sugar per lb of rhubarb. But, that sure seems like a lot.) I'll leave that in the primary fermenter for a few days thawing and dissolving the sugar. I'll then squeeze the juice out and add enough water to get to 6 gallons (it will be in a 6 gallon carboy). I'll add Kmeta and wait 24 hours and then add the yeast (EC-1118). After primary fermentation, I'll put in carboy. Rack after 2-3 weeks and then start racking every 3 months adding Kmeta each time. Each time, I'll top off with my previously made rhubarb wine.

When I look on line, I see recipes with added tannins, acids and pectic enzymes...etc. Do most people add all of this? The first time, I didn't have any problems with the acidity or fermentation.

Thoughts? What other tweaks should I do to my original process?


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## winemaker81 (Feb 1, 2021)

Your sugar seems REALLY high. 2 lbs sugar in 1 gallon water produces ~1.090 in 1 gallon of water.

Is there a reason to not ferment the pulp? I'd think you'd get more flavor from it.

Tannin will give the wine more body, and acid will give the flavor a kick. I add pectic enzyme any time I'm doing fruit -- it's supposed to help break down the fruit to get better extraction, and it prevents pectin haze.


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## Rembee (Feb 1, 2021)

That does seem like a lot of sugar. And that's not even taking into account what the sugars from the berries wil bring to the must. Before adding sugar its better to check the SG of the juice that is extracted from the berries. Then you can make SG adjustments with sugar to reach a target point of the ABV. 
I agree with @winemaker81 about fermenting on the berry skins. It will bring more flavor, color and aroma to the wine.


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## justsipn (Feb 1, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Your sugar seems REALLY high. 2 lbs sugar in 1 gallon water produces ~1.090 in 1 gallon of water.
> 
> Is there a reason to not ferment the pulp? I'd think you'd get more flavor from it.
> 
> Tannin will give the wine more body, and acid will give the flavor a kick. I add pectic enzyme any time I'm doing fruit -- it's supposed to help break down the fruit to get better extraction, and it prevents pectin haze.


Thanks for the reply.

So, maybe go by the final amount of juice? Last time I ended with 5 gallons and used 10 gallons of sugar. So, this time I'm trying for 6 gallons, so maybe 12 lbs of sugar would get me to the 1.090 SG?


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## VinesnBines (Feb 1, 2021)

I would add peptic enzyme, tannin and some form of acid (citric or lemon juice) according to the recipe.

Also, ferment with the pulp, either loose or in a mesh bag. 

I haven't made a pure rhubarb in many years. I did make a strawberry -rhubarb last Spring that turned out very nice. I only used 2 lbs of rhubarb to 12 lbs of strawberries so I can't give you sugar level advice. Rhubarb does need a lot of sugar so hopefully someone will help you out.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 1, 2021)

Yes. If your initial volume is 6 gallons, use 12 lbs sugar. I use hot tap water to dissolve the sugar -- when I started my 2nd runs last October I put the sugar in the fermenter, added a gallon of hot tap water and swirled the fermenter until no more would dissolve . Then added another gallon and repeated. I could have stirred, but with 10 lbs sugar + 1 gallon water in a 32 gallon brute, it was easier to swirl it than reach in with a stirring stick or a drill-mounted rod.

The sugar dissolved so I added the remaining 3 gallons as cool tap water to reduce the temperature, then added the pomace. Since it was a 2nd run the pomace was full of yeast, so I had to ensure the water was cool enough before adding the pomace. 

I'm on a well so no chlorine to deal with. If using bottled water, warm the first couple of gallons to 130 F before mixing, as the sugar will dissolve a lot faster.


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## justsipn (Feb 1, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> according to the recipe.


That's part of my problem. I'm not really finding a common theme as to how much of various ingredients to add. Thanks for the reply.

My best guess is:

1.25 tsp Blanc soft tannins
Juice from 2 lemons for acid
2-3 tsp pectic enzyms.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 1, 2021)

justsipn said:


> My best guess is:
> 
> 1.25 tsp Blanc soft tannins
> Juice from 2 lemons for acid
> 2-3 tsp pectic enzyms.


That sounds about right -- IIRC, tannin is typically added 1/4 tsp per gallon.

I might go with a bit more acid -- my last metheglin had the juice and rind of 2 lemons added to a 6 gallon batch. Next one I'll add 3. If rhubarb is acidic, stick with 2. [I washed the lemons, juiced them, and then added the juice and rind pre-fermentation.]

IIRC, pectic enzyme is typically 1/2 to 1 tsp per gallon, so go with 3 tsp.


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## justsipn (Mar 8, 2021)

EMERGENCY QUESTION:

So, we started the next batch of rhubarb using a recommended recipe.

22 lbs rhubarb
4 lbs strawberries
12 lbs sugar.
Let sit for 24 hours. Squeezed all juice out of the pulp. Added 3.5 gallons of water to get to 6 gallons. 

problem is, starting SG is 1.88. Way more than the 1.09 that it needs to be. What do I do?

I could drain it down to add more water but that’s going to greatly reduce the juice content.

I’m supposed to be adding the Yeast tonight so any quick replies would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 8, 2021)

You must be reading the hydrometer incorrectly. 1.88 would be approximately twice as dense as water. And it is not even on scale of your hydrometer, I wager. Not bloody likely.

Watch this and report back:


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## reeflections (Mar 8, 2021)

You should have 3 digits after the decimal point. I'm thinking your SG is 1.088 which would be good for about 11% ABV. And you were likely shooting for 1.090. If I'm right, you're good to go!


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## justsipn (Mar 8, 2021)

Oh good Lord.

my wife has decided she likes to be the partner that measures SG. So, she told me what it was and I didn’t recheck.

The SG is 1.088. Not, 1.88.

So, I can honestly blame her for this mistake. At least that’s what I’m saying since she’s not on here. 

Thanks.


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## CDrew (Mar 8, 2021)

This is why Brix is way easier to use. No decimal points, intuitive numbers. Sounds like you're good to go. What's the Brix? (Lol)


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## sour_grapes (Mar 8, 2021)

Carry on, my wayward son! There will be wine when you are done!


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## G259 (Mar 8, 2021)

It's a British thing, I think. They can't use Pounds, it's Kilo's. They call "yards" - meters (or metres or something). And now Brix, what is that anyway? It ends in an 'x' so . . . (kidding!) Oh yeah, they call their money pounds? So is it heavy?


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## CDrew (Mar 8, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Carry on, my wayward son! There will be wine when you are done!



Nice Kansas reference. Back to college days.


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## KCCam (Mar 8, 2021)

CDrew said:


> Nice Kansas reference. Back to college days.


You guys MUST by old!!! I was in high school. LOL.


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## G259 (Mar 9, 2021)

In '76 I was 11, and yes I am old. ~ Grade School.

(Great song though!)


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## Scooter68 (Mar 9, 2021)

If you can't deal with decimal points, wine making might not be for you. ( I was 27 when that song came out you want to compare "Oldness?"


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## reeflections (Mar 9, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> ( I was 27 when that song came out you want to compare "Oldness?"



Me too. These young whipper snappers don't know what old is.


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## wpt-me (Mar 9, 2021)

If that's the case I was 36 in 76!!

Bill


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## winemanden (Mar 9, 2021)

Babes in arms I was 43 in 76. At least I think so, or was I 76 in 43. Hmmm, I'd better check that.
Consulted the Oracle, she says I was 43.

Brix or SG. It doesn't really matter. Blindly following a recipe without checking is definitely NO.


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## BernardSmith (Mar 9, 2021)

A gravity of about 1.088 is a Brix of about 20 (or 1/5 of the solution is sugar, Brix being the percentage of sugar in solution). Commercial wine makers tend to use Brix and home wine makers tend to use SG. I assume that the commercial wine makers adopted Brix because when you are checking grapes for ripeness and you squeeze a grape or two from a variety of bunches onto the screen of a refractometer you are far more interested in the amount of sugar in the grapes than you are in the density of the must and if your target is a harvest of grapes with about 20 -25% sugar then you might continue to use Brix as your scale for the duration. Home wine makers tend to buy grapes already harvested or buy pressed juice (or perhaps frozen grapes) so the first tool we pick up is more likely to be an hydrometer and we stick with SG for the duration... at least that is my thinking.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 9, 2021)

I agree with @BernardSmith's comment on refractometers vs hydrometers.

The commercial growers I knew cared first about the percentage sugar, and the brix scale gives that with no translation. For field testing before picking, they only needed to squeeze 1 grape to get a reading, and they might spot check several vines in a row. Using a hydrometer wastes a lot of fruit and takes a lot more effort, so the (at that time) relatively high price of a refractometer was fully justified.

Besides, we can add 3 additional factors why home winemaker use hydrometers:

1) Cost. In the late 80's/early 90's a decent quality refractometer ran $125 USD. In today's money, we can at least double that cost. In contrast, my hydrometer cost $4.75 USD. I almost purchased a $75 refractometer, but was told to not waste my money.

Today? A hydrometer is $13 and a basic refractometer is $33. [I don't currently have a reason to not buy a refractometer.]

2) Accuracy of readings. Look at your triple scale hydrometer -- SG is a finer scale than brix, so a home winemaker can get a more accurate reading without guessing.

3) Usefulness during fermentation. As ABV increases, the accuracy of the brix reading becomes less accurate. For fermentation, we want to know how far along the ferment is and when it is done, and the hydrometer is (IMO) a better tool for that job.

I'll add another reason:

4) Convention. Years ago books were written using the hydrometer as that is what home winemakers had. This advice has remained the same simply because no one as challenged it.


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## BernardSmith (Mar 9, 2021)

I gotta agree with many of your points, Winemaker81, except one. The idea that an hydrometer is more "accurate" is unlikely. That the markings may SUGGEST accuracy is not the same thing as the instrument being accurate. First, it needs to be placed on a perfectly flat and horizontal. Your table is flat but is it in fact perfrectly horizontal? Could be but I doubt it. You need to read the scale with the line being at eye level. Do you always kneel down to read the scale? The liquid needs to be gas free and at the temperature for which the hydrometer was calibrated. Do you always completely degas the wine and account for the temperature of the room? Then there is the problem of the scale itself. Each line is two points of gravity. So, at best the accuracy is to one point (plus or minus a half point). And then there is the use we make of this instrument. It measures density, not alcohol. And we convert the density by subtracting the current reading from a previous reading (the first one) - so we have two relatively inaccurate readings to which we apply a formula that approximates the amount of alcohol in solution. Of course, many folk assume the accuracy of this tool and their ability to use it to state that their wine is not at say 12% ABV but 12.25 % ABV which suggests an accuracy of 1/100 of 1%... Sorry, but my guid Scottish skepticism finds that as likely as unicorns cavorting in my basement as I type this.
.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 9, 2021)

@BernardSmith, the table doesn't need to be perfectly horizontal. The surface of the wine will be level, regardless of the table. Besides, I use a Fermtech wine thief, which I hold at eye level, swinging between my fingers so it's as upright as gravity will make it.

I do look at the hydrometer reading at eye level, even when using a hydrometer jar. Until you mentioned it, it had not occurred to me that anyone would do otherwise.

Sure, the person's ability to correctly read a hydrometer is important, but with all the primers on reading hydrometers, I'll assume they can until proven otherwise. A person's ability to correctly conduct a test has nothing to do with that test being an accurate test.

Yes, I degas the wine when checking during fermentation. Yes, I adjust for temperature. For my hydrometer that is 1 at 70 F and 2 at 77 F. In my cellar in the winter the temperature is 58 F, so no correction required.

The scale for SG is finer graduated than brix, so if anyone is guessing, they'll guess better on SG.

The only 2 readings that need to be accurate are first and last. In both cases the liquid is degassed. All readings in between are a barometer of how far along fermentation is, and if the reading is off by a point or 3, it doesn't matter. If someone _wants _an accurate reading during fermentation? Cool. Conduct the test correctly.

I didn't mention calculating ABV, but as I said, the first and last readings are accurate if performed correctly. From those readings a reasonable ABV can be calculated.

The bigger question regarding ABV is if the right formula is being applied, as the constant in the ABV calculation changes depending on the ABV level, e.g., I know of at least 4 formulas that depend on where the ABV is between 3% and 18%. A graph of the ABV is an uneven curve, and I've yet to find a single equation that can solve it.


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## Raptor99 (Mar 9, 2021)

I mainly use my refractometer because I only need a few drops of wine for testing. That makes it simpler to use. As a bonus, my refractometer automatically corrects for temperature.

Once fermentation has started, I use an online calculator to give me the SG. I can also use an online calculator to figure out the ABV. I am not overly concerned with calculating ABV precisely. If it is within 1-2% ABV that is good enough.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 9, 2021)

I think @BernardSmith 's and @winemaker81 's discussion could be made more concise by saying that, IMHO, Bryan simply meant to say "more precise," not "more accurate."


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## bstnh1 (Mar 10, 2021)

Brix??? I have a lot of those in my sidewalk! Sweet!


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## justsipn (Mar 13, 2021)

Hmmm....going on day 5 since I pitched the yeast. No visible fermentation.


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## justsipn (Mar 13, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> If you can't deal with decimal points, wine making might not be for you. ( I was 27 when that song came out you want to compare "Oldness?"


Well....she was a math tutor in college, so I think we are good there. Reading hydrometer though.....


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## winemaker81 (Mar 13, 2021)

justsipn said:


> Hmmm....going on day 5 since I pitched the yeast. No visible fermentation.


what is the SG? Has it changed? If not, I'd rehydrate another yeast packet and jump start it.


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## justsipn (Mar 13, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> what is the SG? Has it changed? If not, I'd rehydrate another yeast packet and jump start it.


We are going to check that. Problem is, I don’t have more yeast.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 13, 2021)

justsipn said:


> We are going to check that. Problem is, I don’t have more yeast.


Dang! How warm is the area the must is in? If you can get the temperature up to 80 to 85F, that may help. Are you stirring at least daily? That can help as well.


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## justsipn (Mar 13, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Dang! How warm is the area the must is in? If you can get the temperature up to 80 to 85F, that may help. Are you stirring at least daily? That can help as well.


I just remembered that I have a friend who might have some yeast. 

temp is constantly 68 degrees.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 13, 2021)

justsipn said:


> temp is constantly 68 degrees.


Warm it if you can. Can move it into a small room (bathroom?) with a quartz heater or something similar? Even a few degrees may help.

I have fermented white kits in the winter at 58 F. It works, but each time it took 3+ weeks to finish.


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## justsipn (Mar 13, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Warm it if you can. Can move it into a small room (bathroom?) with a quartz heater or something similar? Even a few degrees may help.
> 
> I have fermented white kits in the winter at 58 F. It works, but each time it took 3+ weeks to finish.


Added more yeast and moved it to 75 degrees.


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## BernardSmith (Mar 15, 2021)

IMO, adding more yeast to a stuck or stalled fermentation is not always the best approach. A better approach is to turn that process on its head and make a starter of say, 1 cup with the new yeast and keep doubling the volume of the starter with the problem wine. If there is a systemic problem with that wine "diluting" it with active fermentation in the starter may neutralize the problem. If it doesn't you will see exactly at what point the yeast in the starter cannot ferment any more of the wine that was stalled /stuck and that may be for a variety of reasons. Simply adding more yeast to what may be a real problem with the wine may kill the second batch of yeast. Of course, if the problem is not systemic (eg it was too low a temperature - and not preservatives in the must; too acidic a must; etc) then upturning the process does not create a problem although it does mean that it will take a few days before the entire batch will be added to the starter.


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## justsipn (Mar 16, 2021)

Added the second packet of yeast on Saturday evening and just last night started seeing some fermentation activity. Hopefully it goes well from here.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 16, 2021)

justsipn said:


> Added the second packet of yeast on Saturday evening and just last night started seeing some fermentation activity. Hopefully it goes well from here.


Check the SG tomorrow or the next day, as if activity started last night, the SG won't have budged much. If you see activity, it's moving in the right direction.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 16, 2021)

Just a suggestion - This thread is now into page 13. Might be a good idea to start a new one with the appropriate topic for the questions.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 17, 2021)

"I was 43 in 76."
So if my math is correct you are 97 ? If so, I'm impressed !


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## sour_grapes (Mar 17, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> "I was 43 in 76."
> So if my math is correct you are 97 ? If so, I'm impressed !



I believe if you recheck, you will find that you were off by a decade.


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## winemanden (Mar 23, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> "I was 43 in 76."
> So if my math is correct you are 97 ? If so, I'm impressed !


NO, I'm 88 now. Sometimes I feel like I'm 97 though!


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## winemanden (Mar 23, 2021)

winemanden said:


> NO, I'm 88 now. Sometimes I feel like I'm 97 though!


Been winemaking for 62 years. I think the tannins have been doing a reasonable preserving job.


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## KCCam (Mar 23, 2021)

winemanden said:


> NO, I'm 88 now. Sometimes I feel like I'm 97 though!


I’m 59, but sometimes (like now, lying in bed with an ice pack on my back) feel like I’m 95. I obviously don’t drink *enough* wine!


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## winemaker81 (Mar 23, 2021)

Be nice if the tannins were a good preservative for humans. If so, between wine and the coffee, I am the Highlander!


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## G259 (Mar 23, 2021)

Wine AND coffee, 'There can be only ONE!'


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## winemaker81 (Mar 24, 2021)

G259 said:


> Wine AND coffee, 'There can be only ONE!'


I use them sequentially ... coffee in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon ... wine in the evening and sometimes in the afternoon.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 24, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I use them sequentially ... coffee in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon ... wine in the evening and sometimes in the afternoon.



Exactly! It is like racing a car: if your foot is not mashing the brake or mashing the accelerator, you are doing something wrong!


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## G259 (Mar 24, 2021)

That was a Highlander (movie) reference by the way.


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