# High starting brix - stuck/slow fermentation



## sixdoubleo (Oct 24, 2010)

I have a zin that I started from 250lbs of grapes. The grapes started at a very high brix (30 brix) and I'm having trouble getting it to ferment dry. I'm at 21 days in and my SG is still at 1.003-1.004. I'm wondering what my options are here. I'll try to give as much detailed info without boring you guys....

Got the grapes Oct 2. Winery said they were 27 brix. I SO2'd and cold soaked them 2 days (40lbs of ice in trash bags set into the must). After the 2-day cold soak, I measured 30 brix...but thought perhaps pulp/skins and other sludge might have been affecting my measurement...so I decided not to adjust with any water.

Day 1 - (Oct 4) Starting brix: 30 (1.130 SG). Started fermentation with RC-212. Added FermaidK and DAP. Fermented in 2 20 gallon brute cans. Every day, 3-4 times a day I punched down the cap and stirred the mixture well. Temperature in the room was 73-75 degrees.

Day 6 - Down to 9-10 brix (1.030-1.040 SG)

Day 7 - Down to 7 brix (1.025 SG) Added ML Culture, CH16.

Day 8 - Didn't get a hydrometer reading as my hydrometer broke. Due to availability of the press, I had to press today, even though the brix is still around 5-7. I pressed into three carboys. Kept free-run, 1st and 2nd press separate. Added more FermaidK & DAP. Left lots of airspace in carboy (wine level at fattest portion of cylinder) so fermentation could complete. Put airlocks on all three carboys.

Day 9 - 2.5 brix (1.010 SG)
Day 10 - 2.5 brix (1.010 SG)
Day 11 - 2.5 brix (1.010 SG)

Once I saw the same SG for three days straight, I feared that fermentation had stopped. I figured that the RC-212 yeast just simply couldn't support this alcohol level. So I decided to get a starter going with EC-1118 and then add that to each carboy.

Day 13 - Added EC-1118
Day 14 - 1.009 SG
Day 15 - 1.009 SG
Day 16 - 1.006 SG
Day 17 - 1.005 SG
Day 18 - 1.004 SG
Day 19 - 1.004 SG
At this point, no longer seeing pressure in the airlocks, and fearing that things were again stuck, I topped up the carboys.
Day 20 - 1.004 SG
Day 21 - 1.003 SG (one carboy at 1.003, the other 1.004) 

So that's where I'm at today. I now realize that I should have added water to this thing. I guess I thought I'd end up with a "big" wine, but now realize that 30 brix was just too much to start with. Also, I think I might have pressed too soon?

How should I progress from here? It's still sitting on all the sediment from pressing, but the carboys are topped up and airlocked. Should I just wait it out? I'd like to at least get this thing down to 1.000SG. I'm also concerned that I haven't racked off the sediment or added more SO2 since fermentation. 

Will this thing eventually go dry on its own or am I stuck with a dessert wine?

Thanks for any suggestions!


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## grapeman (Oct 24, 2010)

I would just leave it alone for another week or so and then check the SG. If it is still not moving, I would rack it and sulfite it. You aren't far from completely dry. You already have a high alcohol wine so getting anything else going would be touch. I bet if you leave it alone for a bit longer it will make it under 1.000. You certainly do not have a sweet dessert wine at 1.003.


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2010)

Id too would give it some more times but with that high a starting gravity and a yeast with a tolerance of only 16% you probably hit its toxicity limit. you more then likely should have diluted the must down with acidified water to 25 brix.


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## sixdoubleo (Oct 24, 2010)

OK, I'll give it another week.

Regarding the SG level and my "dessert wine" comment...the sugar on this thing is very high (by taste). Wouldn't the high alcohol content of this thing skew the SG reading...basically making it read lower than it really is?


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2010)

Are you using a hydrometer or refractometer. As far as I know each are pretty accurate as long as you use the right #'s if using refract.


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## sixdoubleo (Oct 24, 2010)

A hydrometer.

As I understood it, a higher alcohol wine will cause the hydrometer reading to be lower because alcohol weighs less than water.

So considering two wines...

Wine A: 13% alcohol at 1.000 SG
Wine B: 17% alcohol at 1.000 SG

Wine B has more residual sugar because the extra 4% alcohol is bringing the SG reading down. 

Is this thinking correct?


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2010)

Its true that this will throw off a slightly off # but for hobbyists this is way close eneough at these levels.


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## Rock (Oct 24, 2010)

sixdoubleo said:


> I have a zin that I started from 250lbs of grapes. The grapes started at a very high brix (30 brix) and I'm having trouble getting it to ferment dry. I'm at 21 days in and my SG is still at 1.003-1.004. I'm wondering what my options are here. I'll try to give as much detailed info without boring you guys....
> 
> Got the grapes Oct 2. Winery said they were 27 brix. I SO2'd and cold soaked them 2 days (40lbs of ice in trash bags set into the must). After the 2-day cold soak, I measured 30 brix...but thought perhaps pulp/skins and other sludge might have been affecting my measurement...so I decided not to adjust with any water.
> 
> ...



I have dealt with high brix 27 and you need to deal with this problem right away.or you will be stuck with a sweet wine.www.morewine.com has a referment yeast ball you should use to finish your wine.It might take a few days for this stuff to come to you just keep your wine warm and use this product.


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2010)

Hey Rock, can you post an exact link to it as I cant pull it up and have nevr heard of this, Thanks!


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2010)

Is this what you are talking about Rock?
http://morewinemaking.com/view_prod...Yeast_-_ProRestart_Uvaferm_43_83_g_1_mesh_bag


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## JohnT (Oct 25, 2010)

Also, you could try to give your carboys a stir and raise the room temperature to 78 degrees. 

May not help, but could not hurt.


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## sixdoubleo (Oct 25, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Is this what you are talking about Rock?
> http://morewinemaking.com/view_prod...Yeast_-_ProRestart_Uvaferm_43_83_g_1_mesh_bag



I have three 6 gallon carboys of wine. How would I use a product like this? Would I rack everything into a garbage can or something? At this stage in the game (22 days) would I need to worry about it not being under airlock?


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## Rock (Oct 25, 2010)

sixdoubleo said:


> I have three 6 gallon carboys of wine. How would I use a product like this? Would I rack everything into a garbage can or something? At this stage in the game (22 days) would I need to worry about it not being under airlock?


Yes this is it uvaferm 43 pro-stuck,works great.yes i would rack it under an air lock.


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## Rock (Oct 25, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Is this what you are talking about Rock?
> http://morewinemaking.com/view_prod...Yeast_-_ProRestart_Uvaferm_43_83_g_1_mesh_bag



Yes this is it.Thanks Wade.


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## sixdoubleo (Oct 26, 2010)

Rock said:


> Yes this is it uvaferm 43 pro-stuck,works great.yes i would rack it under an air lock.



If I wanted to try this...given 16 gallons of wine, what specific container(s) would you recommend that would accommodate this product and provide the correct environment to complete this fermentation while also protecting the wine? 

Also, if I were to try this, how much airspace should I have? Is this like a normal primary fermentation where I could dump it all in a bucket with 5 inches of airspace and lay a towell on top or would this need to be completely topped off?


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## Lurker (Oct 26, 2010)

The same thing happened to me a few years ago before I was on the forum. I also had a SG of 1.115 with premier Cuvee yeast. After 4 days I contacted Red Star. I got a phone call the next day and was told to add enough water to reduce SG to 24. I did and the next day I had fermentation. I used spigot water. It worked. Let us know how you make out. Don't wait!


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## sixdoubleo (Oct 26, 2010)

Lurker said:


> The same thing happened to me a few years ago before I was on the forum. I also had a SG of 1.115 with premier Cuvee yeast. After 4 days I contacted Red Star. I got a phone call the next day and was told to add enough water to reduce SG to 24. I did and the next day I had fermentation. I used spigot water. It worked. Let us know how you make out. Don't wait!



Starting SG 1.115 and then added water to reduce SG to 24? You mean 24 brix? Or am I missing something? 

Are you saying you had problems getting fermentation to START in the first place? Not sure if I was clear in my initial post, but I've already fermented this thing from 30 brix down to about 1.5 brix. I'm asking what to do about the final 1.5 brix of sugar I have left.

Anyway, I am confused by what you're suggesting I do...which is nothing new for me


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## Rock (Oct 26, 2010)

sixdoubleo said:


> If I wanted to try this...given 16 gallons of wine, what specific container(s) would you recommend that would accommodate this product and provide the correct environment to complete this fermentation while also protecting the wine?
> 
> Also, if I were to try this, how much airspace should I have? Is this like a normal primary fermentation where I could dump it all in a bucket with 5 inches of airspace and lay a towell on top or would this need to be completely topped off?



I did mine in a open fermenter with a cap over it, 45 gallons and in a very warm room in the basement.


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## sixdoubleo (Oct 26, 2010)

Rock said:


> I did mine in a open fermenter with a cap over it, 45 gallons and in a very warm room in the basement.



OK, kind of a beginner here, and I don't think I was clear enough in my questions...

I'm trying to understand what type of airspace you should have while using this product. Given that I don't have much sugar left (maybe 1-2 brix worth), I wouldn't think that it will be a very agressive fermentation, so there won't be a ton of CO2 given off. Right? And since CO2 is what protects the wine against oxidation, would I need to leave this thing topped up while this fermentation completes? Or would topping off not give it the oxygen it needs to ferment? This is where I get confused...

So given the equipment I have available to me, which would be best?

1. For my 16 gallons of wine, could I dump it all into a single 20 gallon Brute garbage can with a lid and drop this product in? (Since this is just a garbage can, and the lid isn't very air-tight, obviously there would be no airlock) Or would that risk too much oxygen in the wine?

2. What about splitting my 16 gallons across a pair of 7.9 gallon fermenting buckets with lids and airlocks? How full should these be? An inch of airspace? More? Less?

Again, sorry for the elementary questions, but this is one of the concepts I've really had a tough time wrapping my head around...when it's OK to have air space, and when it isn't. It seems like just when I think I have it figured out, I find conflicting or confusing information and I'm back to feeling like an idiot


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## Rock (Oct 27, 2010)

sixdoubleo said:


> OK, kind of a beginner here, and I don't think I was clear enough in my questions...
> 
> I'm trying to understand what type of airspace you should have while using this product. Given that I don't have much sugar left (maybe 1-2 brix worth), I wouldn't think that it will be a very agressive fermentation, so there won't be a ton of CO2 given off. Right? And since CO2 is what protects the wine against oxidation, would I need to leave this thing topped up while this fermentation completes? Or would topping off not give it the oxygen it needs to ferment? This is where I get confused...
> 
> ...



1. Is the way i did mine 
2.sounds like it would be the better way to go,but yeast needs oxygen.
i dont think it will take long for your ferment to finish with this uvferm 43.
Just make sure your safe right now under airlock.Also make sure your juice is warm and keep taking sg readings while you wait to re-inoculate.


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## sixdoubleo (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, so I decided to try the UV43 ProRestart. How does this look?

I'm doing two separate restart kits. I measured the appropriate amount of yeast beads and put in each nylon sleeve. Then mixed up two batches of 500ml each hot water at 40g Sugar/L. I coiled each sleeve up and stuck them in the beakers. After 4.5 hours, I dumped out the water, and replaced the solution with a mix of 40% stuck wine / 60% 40g/L sugar/water solution. I covered the beakers with a paper towel.






Then I waited overnight (15 hours). I didn't see a whole lot of bubbles in the starter...not sure if you should at this point. 

Anyway, today I racked my wine into two 7.9gal primary fermentation buckets. I left 1 inch of airspace in each. I tied each sleeve to itself creating about a 10" diameter ring. Then I tied a bag of sanitized marbles to each ring and placed each of these into the two buckets. The bag of marbles sank to the bottom and is holding each ring submerged at about the middle part of the bucket. I then added 1.5 tsp Fermaid K to each bucket. Then secured the lids and airlocked them.






So a couple questions?

1.) After preparing the starter and waiting over night, I didnt really see any "activity" in the starter. Should I be concerned about this?

2.) Is one inch of airspace enough to give this thing plenty of oxygen? Is it too much, too little? Remember the wine is about 28 days old or so so I'm concerned about oxygen at this point.

As always, thank you for any advice or suggestions!


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## Wade E (Nov 1, 2010)

If you followed the instructions then thats all that can be done. Dont really have the instructions in front of me, do they call for any nutrient to help that yeast out?


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## sixdoubleo (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks Wade...more or less directed at Rock since he's done one of these specific kits before. But yeah, they have you add GoFerm to the initial sugar/water starter (which I did). Then like I said, I added FermaidK to the wine, which they recommended. They also wanted you to do a yeast hull pretreatment if your final alcohol level was greater than 16%...which I may be. However, I wasn't able to to get ahold of any yeast hulls locally. But I understand that FermaidK does contain yeast hulls (among other things).

Anyway, we're at about 4-5 hours now and no airlock movement yet...but I'll check the SG in a couple days and report back.


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## Rock (Nov 2, 2010)

Darn,late on this post.I did not see any bubbling.Like i said we did a looselid ferment It was a 50 gallon batch.I dont think it should take more than a couple of days to get you to dry great job on this and thanks for the update.I bet you will go dry let us know.


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## sixdoubleo (Nov 4, 2010)

Well, I'm about 50-60 hours into it and the SG hasn't moved one bit. I just added some more FermaidK and stirred well. I also unsealed the lids and let them sit loosely, slightly cracked for a few hours tonight to try and let some oxygen in.

If I dont see any movement by tomorrow I'm thinking I need to pull the plug and just salvage the wine where it's at and use it to blend with other flatter wines.


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## sixdoubleo (Nov 6, 2010)

Update...

Well, 5 days after adding this yeast and no movement in SG. So I think it's officially dead. Either the yeast never started to begin with, there wasn't enough oxygen, or something else related to nutrient or alcohol level. I followed the instructions pretty closely, so I'm not sure what the deal is here.

I think I'm going to rack back to carboys, top off, SO2 and airlock. Then maybe call the company that sells this restart kit and ask them what I might have done wrong, and whether they recommend I try it again and if so what I could do differently this time.


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## Rock (Nov 6, 2010)

I dont think they will recommend to try agian if you add so2 to it.What was your temp.in the wine juice?Did you keep it warm above 70?Sorry to see it not work for you.


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