# Breaking Ground!!



## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

Friends,

(I frickin' LOVE this place!) 

I'm kind of multi-tasking here: In other parts of the forum I am learning the science and process of wine-making from the grape to bottle. But this thread is to tap my green-thumb-growing mentors on what to do from ground to grape! (again, just research at this point - don't want to get ahead of myself).

So my first question is this, I have a substantially open place to begin a SMALL vineyard. I am at a loss as to what to do with this ground that I have. As far as I know it is well irrigated (naturally) and very well lit. What would some of the first steps be if I were to want to start planting? Like, what do I need to check to determine what grapes I can grow, and what season(s) are best for planting/starting? Does the grape varietal determine that? 

I understand, through previous research, that starting a vineyard means a wait of anywhere between 3 to 5 years before I get a working crop (and I'm ready for that). 

So....where do I start!? :-D

Thank You, all!


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 20, 2013)

I am by far a grape grower, i would go to one of the colleges ag center and ask them what variety would do best, take a soil sample and have them analyze it...ask them there opinion on soil, etc...


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## JohnT (Dec 20, 2013)

I can recommend this book...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004A7YIO8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


Very good and detailed read!


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## seth8530 (Dec 20, 2013)

Before you begin, I would first make sure you realize what you are getting yourself into.

Once you have done that and accepted it after doing the propper research I would look for varietals of grapes that you really like that grow well in your area... Then of course, you need to do all the nice goodies and good things which other much more knowledgeable people than me will be able to assist you with.


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## JohnT (Dec 20, 2013)

Virginia wines ROCK! 

There are some really great varietals that do well there. 

What I suggest is this. Start touring some of the many wineries in your area (tough job, huh?). Taste EVERYTHING! settle on a "wish list" of the varietals that you like. Get your soil tested (as James Suggests) and pick the varietal on your wish list that will grow best there. An AG department can help you on this.

BTW, I am jealous. I would love to be in Virginia right now.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 20, 2013)

Here is a link to one of the books I have read, and it is by far the best book I have read on growing grapes. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1890132829/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Good luck with your vineyard.

Jay


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## ibglowin (Dec 20, 2013)

I don't mean to be rude but.......

I would do your own research first and foremost and not basically ask to be spoon fed from an easy chair every last detail you want to know about grape growing from the many experienced members on this forum. 

If you have specific problems or questions that's fine to ask after you have exhausted efforts to see if the question has already been asked and answered before.

Use the search button. It is your friend.

Read.

Read some more.

Especially read threads like grapeman's "Vineyard from the ground up".

Talk to your local AG extension about what grows well in your area.

Visit local wineries and see what is doing well for them.

Read some more.


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## olusteebus (Dec 20, 2013)

Uh, I think he is only asking where to start. 

some good suggestions. Those books would be the first place I would start if I were comminting a good bit of land and effort towards it. I would research information from State universities Like the U of Va. They probably have a lot of basic info on in to real specifics.


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

ibglowin, I am sorry if I have offended you. However, as O-lu, says - I don't even know where to begin this research, I have 'searched' were to start and that is how I ended up here (if you can believe that). I do appreciate your suggestions, and again, am sorry to have offended. However, I will pose that these venerable experts have their own prerogative to answer me, or not. That is their choice. To that end I would add that these amazing people have rallied around someone who has NO CLUE where to even begin and they have drawn me a map, handed me a compass, and put a series of 'X's on that map for me. Such mentors as JohnT (Maestro), Ol-u and James! All of them have come to my aid, with no heed of recompense. For that, I am eternally grateful. This, dear friend, is the mark of a TRUE wine enthusiast. They took their eyes off of themselves and looked at weak, lil olde me and didn't condescend their powerful knowledge to me, nor look down on me. They didn't spoon feed me, nor offer a hand out. They gave me a hand up! That brand of kindness is uncommon (especially the general consensus is that 'wine people' are 'snobby' :-D ).


All of these ideas are perfect for what I am seeking to learn. Thank all of you so very much! I will get right on some of that!

Yes, Maestro! Virginia is singularly the most amazing place on earth! Its incredible and I am so very proud to call her home! We are so rich in wine culture (now I know where to go for it!), steeped in history since before the birth of our great (for now) nation, and producer of patriots and philanthropists alike! Virginia is for [wine] Lovers!

Sic Semper Tyranis!!!!


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## sour_grapes (Dec 20, 2013)

I had no idea that "Sic semper tyranis" was the motto of the Commonwealth of Virginia. I only associate it (in this country) with Lincoln's assassination.

Forward!


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## JohnT (Dec 20, 2013)

9course, 

Purchase and read the book that I recommended. It takes you from selecting a spot for a vineyard, through selecting what grape to grow, through planting and pruning, and then through the basics of making wine. This book is not too technical (as I remember it) and will do you a world of good in getting you started.


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

Sour Grapes,

Take a guess where John Wilks Booth was from?  I won't get political here at all - but there is something to be said of history in that non-fictional anecdote! :-D


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

Maestro,

Thank you sir, I will definitely do it! It looks like something I could digest with relative ease.


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## BobR (Dec 20, 2013)

Both of the recommended books mentioned are excellent.


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

Awesome!

Its always good to hear a third party on the matter as well! Inspires confidence, thank you, Bob!


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## jpsmithny (Dec 20, 2013)

Is this a hobby vineyard or the beginnings of a commercial winery? 

It doesn't really matter but what does is how much time you would like to spend in the vineyard. Some varietals will require a lot more care than others
and whichever one you choose affects the type of trellis that works best with it and so and so on.

Definitely talk with some vineyard owners and managers in your area. They're experience will be invaluable.


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

Jp,

My ULTIMATE goal is to own and operate a vineyard and winery (I cannot WAIT for the day I make my first Estate Wine). However, to answer your question, I have to crawl before I can walk, walk before I can run and run before I can bottle wine. :-D

Thanks for the advice!


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## grapeman (Dec 20, 2013)

Reading the two books will give you some good basic information. Don't get too hung up with growing organically because it is very difficult to do east of the Mississippi (it is just too moist). 
The suggestion of trying local wines is a great one, but ask to try only varieties they grow right there. It won't do you any good to try a Cab grown in CA but made into wine in VA, it is still a CA Cab.
As you go along, I will help you as I can. Today I had to deal with a fire in my office so I am a bit distracted as I lost everything. Get the books, read them and when there is something you want clarified, just ask.


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 20, 2013)

grapeman!

I am so sorry to hear of the fire, I hope all turns out well, truly! Thank you very much for your support and suggestions! I would never have thought to ask for wines from locally grown grapes! Good looking out!

I'll keep all of you posted!


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## blumentopferde (Dec 21, 2013)

My advice as a fellow novice-grape grower:

Start small! In the beginning you tend to underestimate the workload a vineyard brings along! And it's a whole lot of work!

Also your taste and your goals will change during your journey. So don't plant too much at once, you might not be satisfied with your choice in the near future!

Start with easy varieties! You might learn more about spraying and pruning with a delicate variety, but you might lose many plants on that way


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 21, 2013)

Blumentopferde,

That is very sound and good advice. Thank you! I do feel that when it comes for me to plant it would be wise to start with only a few plants, if nothing else to see how they react and what they do.

Thank you again!


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## BobR (Dec 21, 2013)

blumentopferde said:


> My advice as a fellow novice-grape grower:
> 
> Start small! In the beginning you tend to underestimate the workload a vineyard brings along! And it's a whole lot of work!
> 
> ...



Well Said!!! I started out with seven Concord plants in my backyard in 2009. Started them from cuttings in March of that year and put them out when the weather warmed up. By fall they were all over five feet tall. 
The next year, I planted more about 1/4 mile behind my house and then each year a few more. They were all enjoyable until this past year. I planted 54 plants by the time this fall had come around and since my 150 cuttings did not root....not one of them, I relied all on nursery stock. Years ago, I messed up my lower back and now being retired, it tends to act up more now than before. With these 54 plants, they did not grow like the original plants of '09, so all of my work with these plants were at my feet to maybe two feet tall. Now after spending anytime at all bent over or on crawling around on your knees, ya just don't straighten up to quick. With that being said, I still really enjoy messing with them and I now have 120 plants with more ordered for the spring. 
There is a lot to learn and I take it one step at a time. I have found that unless you really screw up big time, they are a forgiving plant.....you don't see many unhealthy wild grapes growing. They can be relaxing and I enjoy being out in them no matter what the season. I'm ready to try again on the cutting. In fact, I have 4 plants growing downstairs in front of the patio door. 
Take your time and enjoy your new hobby. Read what you can and if you are still unsure, you will find that the Grapeman is a walking grape encyclopedia.


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## blumentopferde (Dec 22, 2013)

BobR said:


> I have found that unless you really screw up big time, they are a forgiving plant.....you don't see many unhealthy wild grapes growing.



I plunged straight into viniferas and organic growing. My property is in the middle of a wine growing area and we are in realtively cool area with lots of rainfalls. No need to mention that I had big trouble with pest control right from the beginning. 

So I really understand grapeman's advice not to start out with organic growing 

And young vines can be very unforgiving! I lost almost lost half of my young vines (1st year! the vines in the second year did well) during last years hot summer (no irrigation installed as we usually have lots of rainfalls)...


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## drumlinridgewinery (Dec 22, 2013)

A lot of great ideas. Many I did . Think about maybe joining a local wine makers club. I did this and it really opened my eyes to what my local region could grow. The group I am with has lots of local wise people that have done it already and are willing to help someone get started. 

Have fun its a great journey


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 23, 2013)

A wine maker's club.....hmmmm. I'll have to research that!


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## Sacalait (Dec 23, 2013)

ibglowin said:


> I don't mean to be rude but....... I would do your own research first and foremost and not basically ask to be spoon fed from an easy chair every last detail you want to know about grape growing from the many experienced members on this forum. If you have specific problems or questions that's fine to ask after you have exhausted efforts to see if the question has already been asked and answered before. Use the search button. It is your friend. Read. Read some more. Especially read threads like grapeman's "Vineyard from the ground up". Talk to your local AG extension about what grows well in your area. Visit local wineries and see what is doing well for them. Read some more.



Well said!


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 23, 2013)

I would agree for someone further along than I am. While I am definitely a 'big boy' and quite intelligent, I was simply seeking a DIRECTION to go in which our awesome venerable members have more than provided.

Cheers!


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 28, 2013)

I got the books you guys suggested! I am excited to see what they have to offer! I'll keep you posted!


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## grapeman (Dec 28, 2013)

Enjoy reading them. It will give you some insight into what to do and then you can ask about what you don't quite get. Have fun!


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Dec 29, 2013)

That, dear friend, is exactly the plan - reading - as we speak - on my Kindle now! This is FASCINATING! I never knew this 'world' existed beyond the corks and labels! WOW!


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Jan 4, 2014)

UPDATE!

It seems that, so far of all that I have read, there is an air of 'doom and gloom' so to speak to START a vineyard and/or winery. What I was thinking, at least at first, was to plant a few rows in my back yard (provided my soil can support the plants - I'm not to concerned with varietals at this point as I am with process). Then as JohnT and Sour Grapes and others have made mention of - I could get, what seems like, all the equipment I would need for such a small affair for under $750.

Am I possibly missing something - or are these books that I am reading just geared towards people looking to jump into a major investment with both feet (no pun intended).

...curious.


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## BobR (Jan 5, 2014)

9CourseWineMusician said:


> UPDATE!
> Am I possibly missing something - or are these books that I am reading just geared towards people looking to jump into a major investment with both feet (no pun intended).
> 
> ...curious.



Hmmm, never got that impression from those books. Thought that they were excellent for the home grower/wine maker.


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## mgmarty (Jan 5, 2014)

Some of what I read, before starting my vineyard, did make a point of "is this really something you want to do?" After just one year, I can attest that is far more work, and more costly than I imagined. I grew 7 merlot and cab franc along a fence before planting my vineyard. I'm hoping my second year is a little easier. (Some one out there is probably laughing at that.)


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## grapeman (Jan 5, 2014)

Sorry Marty I could not resist, but seriously each of the first few years gets exponentially more work as the vines get growing seriously. And yes there is continued expenses although once you get the trellis in, that helps.


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## blumentopferde (Jan 5, 2014)

9CourseWineMusician said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> What I was thinking, at least at first, was to plant a few rows in my back yard.


If you do all the work with your hands planting dozens of vines will be a whole lot of work! I'd rather start smaller...




> (provided my soil can support the plants)



Almost any soil, unless it is a swamp or very wet, can support grapes. I would still have it tested before planting, because this is the best time to balance nutrient deficiencies!



> - I'm not to concerned with varietals at this point as I am with process).


But you should. This will be the second decision in your grape growing career (the first one is ro choose the site), and it is quite fundamental, as it will affect your trellis system and as you will be bound to your decision for many years!



> Then as JohnT and Sour Grapes and others have made mention of - I could get, what seems like, all the equipment I would need for such a small affair for under $750.


What would that equipment be?
For creating a trellis system I perceived a long tape measure, a small auger and a manual pile driver as the most valuable tools. 

Cheers,
blumentopferde


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Jan 6, 2014)

Blume,

Thank you so much for all of that insight! Now, by "not concerned with varietals" I simply meant that I will work whatever I can get my hands on as this particular ruse will NOT be my permanent establishment - only my 'tip-toe' into the pool, if you will.

The equipment I was referring to was the post viticulturing: deseeder and destemmer, presses....carboys...ect. However, with that, I am glad to hear of what I will need to begin PLANTING, thank you for that (hadn't even considered it, to be honest).

Also thank you for your advice on soil, I was going to have it tested, but it is good to know that I may actually have some lee-way to choose my varietal(s).

Thanks again! I'll keep you posted.


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## blumentopferde (Jan 7, 2014)

9CourseWineMusician said:


> Blume,
> 
> Thank you so much for all of that insight! Now, by "not concerned with varietals" I simply meant that I will work whatever I can get my hands on as this particular ruse will NOT be my permanent establishment - only my 'tip-toe' into the pool, if you will.


I don't quite understand... Wineplants are permanent - What are you going to do with these "temporary" vines, once you have your final wineyard? 



> The equipment I was referring to was the post viticulturing: deseeder and destemmer, presses....carboys...ect. However, with that, I am glad to hear of what I will need to begin PLANTING, thank you for that (hadn't even considered it, to be honest).


I have no idea about the prices in the USA, so I can't give you any advice on that. I just want to point out a few things:
- If you sart small (which I suggest) a deseeder (never heard of such such a thing before!), destemmer and a huge winepress will be useless! There's just no point in putting a few grapes into a huge machine which you will have to clean afterwards 
- If you're aiming to a commercial scale, I wouldn't recommend machines that require lots of manual work.

I'd ask myself these questions:

- How much wine do I want to produce?
- Who is going to drink all that wine?
- How much time do I have for this?
- How much money can I spend on this?

Cheers,
blumentopferde


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Jan 8, 2014)

Blume,

I am sorry for the confusion. What I meant was that the vines I plant (in my back yard) to start, will remain - however I will not be running a winery out of my back yard; only starting there. 

Also forgive me my lack of vocabulary as far as equipment goes - but my first foray will merely require table-top equipment, and as I find land and my vineyard grows...so, too, will my equipment (as needed).

So the questions you've posed that I should be asking myself:
1. How much wine do I want to produce?
- To start, just a successful batch; in the future - I want to be a national brand name (maybe even international).

2. Who is going to drink all of this wine?
- Everyone!

3. How much time do I have to do this?
- Being that I am working a full-time job, it will take all of my free time; but I have the remainder of a life-time of free time to accomplish this.

4. How much money can I spend on this?
- All available _disposable_ income (which is not much...for now). Being the erstwhile 'Trep that I am I would seek, first, to bootstrap my business as much as I could. 

Note: This is why I am starting small - to be sure I can leverage my resources properly to make this a reality. I have all the motivation and dream required (more than, in fact!) now I need to be sure that shaking hands with mother nature I can hold up my end of the bargain.

Thanks!


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## blumentopferde (Jan 8, 2014)

> I am sorry for the confusion. What I meant was that the vines I plant (in my back yard) to start, will remain - however I will not be running a winery out of my back yard; only starting there.



Then you might plant several different varieties to see which one suits best to you. Keep in mind though that this would multiply the work load as different varieties should be harvested at different times and squeezed and fermented seperately.


> but my first foray will merely require table-top equipment, and as I find land and my vineyard grows...so, too, will my equipment


In that case 750$ for used equipent sounds much to me!



> in the future - I want to be a national brand name (maybe even international).


So you have big plans, and a lot of research and investment to make! Good luck with that!


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## dwhill40 (Jan 8, 2014)

Pick a spot that will be sunny all day away from grownup tangles and briars preferably on a high point with nice breezes.

Get your soil tested so you can amend it first. Shoveling in soil amendments around grapes can turn into some serious work.

Go to google research and price - trellising, irrigation, rootstock, pierce disease, beneficial plants, vitis vinifera, hybrid grapes, row orientation, soil types, soil amendments, systemic pesticides, white-grey-black-brown mildew/rot, micchorizea, cover crops, composting, growing organic, budbreak, grafting, rootstock again, hybrid varieties, american varieties, pruning. And each one of those subjects has sub-categories.

Lay out your rows, amend the soil, digs holes, plant grapes, install trellis, water well, and watch them grow!


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Jan 9, 2014)

Blume,

As ever, so full of insight and very helpful! I fear the specter of planting many varietals, however the logic does make sense, as far as determining what varietal(s) will best suit me.

Thank you, also, for your wishes of luck and ideas. They are greatly appreciated!


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Jan 9, 2014)

D-dub!

Wow, that was quite the helpful post. I had no idea (perhaps I haven't gotten this far in my reading yet) that it would take such intensive research into JUST THE GROUND. I understood it would take some semblance of investigation. However, the way you've outlined it seems to be relative and easy to follow. Thank you!


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## blumentopferde (Jan 9, 2014)

dwhill40 said:


> Go to google research and price - trellising, irrigation, rootstock, pierce disease, beneficial plants, vitis vinifera, hybrid grapes, row orientation, soil types, soil amendments, systemic pesticides, white-grey-black-brown mildew/rot, micchorizea, cover crops, composting, growing organic, budbreak, grafting, rootstock again, hybrid varieties, american varieties, pruning. And each one of those subjects has sub-categories.


One more thing:

As you're aiming to a commercial scale you should also get familiar with agricultural machines - which ones will you need? What can you do by hand? What will be mechanised? Which row distance and which trellis system will be suitable for mechanisation? What costs do you have to expect? Which licenses do you need to handle them?

Lots of research and lots of invenstments to be done... So you better start small, with one variety and only a few plants in your backyard, get familiar with pruning, spraying and winemaking, and the rest will come step by step...


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## dwhill40 (Jan 9, 2014)

9CWM, My advice is novice since I planted in March 2013 but here is a pic of the results. Cab growing on a mountain top in north alabama. 







Oh well the link doesn't work but I posted some photos in my gallery. The rainy year with the sandy soil was perfect. I call it an experiment still. Starting small figuring it out. Maybe the day will come when it will become obvious that I need a winery


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## 9CourseWineMusician (Jan 14, 2014)

Blume and D-Dub,

Thank you again, my friends, for all of this wonderful advice! It really helps! 

D-dub, it looks like you are well on your way, my friend! It looks amazing! Also I didn't know there were 'mountains' in Alabama  Good stuff!


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