# Blackberry or Blueberry Port



## ckassotis

Hey,

Long time reader and first time poster. I've done a few concentrates that I have toyed with, and working on some Mosti Mondiale syrah right now. Next season I'd like to work with some fresh grapes for the first time, and I'd like to try out some fresh fruit before that point. 

So, as I love port, I decided to make either a blackberry or blueberry port. I was pondering using the Jackkeller recipes for those, but couldn't decide between them. Anyone have any input? I had heard that blueberry was perhaps a bit hard to ferment, and that was wine. There would certainly be a lot more juice in a port than in a typical wine.

So, I have the recipes from JK, but wasn't sure if there was anything else to watch for. I had heard a rumor (either on these boards or another) that I could take the fruit out of the port after a few days of fermenting and add to another primary and use for a wine (not a port). Anyone know if that is the case?

Other than that, Sam's Club has some really great prices on fruit, especially for off-season, so I have a good source of good-looking fruit there. 

My other question was in method of creating the port. So I can either fortify a rather high alcohol with brandy, or add additional sugar in sections, if I understand correctly. The idea being that all the sugar at once wouldn't be fermentable, but adding a bit more as each bit ferments allows the yeast to keep moving. So using a ~18% abv yeast, I could likely reach port consistency without fortifying at all. Anyone have any insight between the two methods?

Lastly, any thoughts on the f-pac? I have no experience with these at all. Do people find them necessary with fruit wines and/or fruit ports? What role do they serve, exactly - adding back flavor after fermentation? Do these wines really lose that much of the flavor to begin with? What is the best way you would go about that for a fruit port such as this?

Any other tips for me before I buy a whole bunch of fruit and start? Many thanks for all the help!


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## SBWs

I've only done this once so I don't know how much it will help. I set the SG at 1.115 and started it with Lalvin K1-v1116 yeast. Then every time the SG got to between 1.010 and 1.025 I'd use juice and sugar to bump it back up to 1.030. I kept doing this until the yeast gave out. I figured I was around 19% but didn't even try and do the math, because the volume is always changing from adding juice and sugar. I then used parsons square to figure out how much blackberry brandy to add to get up around 21%.


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## greyday

My two cents--use a concentrate to back it. You CAN make a port with just fruit, but A) it'll take a ridiculous volume of fruit (to my tastes anyway) and B) a lot more sugar. I made my plum with a can of syrah syrup and it gave it way more body. Though if you go with blackberry, it already has a nice flavor (my marionberry is currently my favorite)...

Also expect to use a lot of brandy. You can supplement with everclear, though. If you want some of the brandy flavor, you can always use a bottle of brandy and then everclear to bump it up to where you want it.

Here's the calculator I used:

http://vinoenology.com/calculators/fortification/

Good luck!


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## ckassotis

Thanks to both of you. 

I'll keep that in mind, SBWs. I was thinking of doing something similar, just wasn't sure if people tended to do that or just start very sweet and let it ferment dry and then get the ABV up with brandy/everclear. Hm. 

@ Grey, the recipe I have has some grape concentrate for body as well. Good tip! I have heard that without it the body lacks a certain something. I believe the recipe calls for approx. 8 lbs of fruit and 8 oz concentrate per gallon. Still a ton of fruit. Thinking of doing somewhere in the area of 1.5-2 gallons. I figure that will make a bit more once it is fortified, with the addition of the brandy. 

Why do you say to expect to use a lot? I figure if I even get the most out of the EC1118, at 18%, I wouldn't want to add too much, and wouldn't need to, to get it up to around 20%.


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## Wade E

With a port you want to almost dbl the amount of fruit and youll want to leave it in as long as possible to extract as much flavor,body,and tannin as possible! I wouls use about 15 lbs of fruit per gallon and also Id use extra light dry malt extract for added body @ about .5 lbs per gallon. You will want to feed the sugar incremently as suggested above and then use like E&J Brandy or grain alc to fortify it while suagr is still high or make an fpac with about 1/3rd the total amount of fruit used per this batch. I would not try to reuse this fruit when done as there shouldnt be anything left with this 1!


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## Turock

Well--------there is ANOTHER way. It' called freeze concentration and is the way to get high alcohol without fortification, doing any fermentation acrobatics, or using high alcohol tolerant cultures--which STILL won't get the alcohol high enough for the purposes of port.

Start with a nice, highly flavored wine to your liking. Save up 2 liter pop bottles. When the wine is aged, and ready, transfer into the pop bottles and freeze. Take out frozen bottles, uncap, turn upside down in a container and let it thaw and drip until all you have remaining in the bottle is ice---disgard the ice. The result will be high alcohol "wine" ready to be port. You can oxidize it slightly, if you want, to make a tawny port. Ruby port isn't oxidized.

There's always been much discussion about the fact that freeze concentration is illegal. The state of Ohio said they really don't care about this as long as it's not sold---a homebrewer is allowed to do it. You can research the subject for yourself and do what you feel is correct. As always, Fed law can supercede state but I'm sure the feds won't come to your house and open your freezer.


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## ckassotis

Well first, thought I would just go ahead and post Jack Keller's recipe. Makes it easier I suppose. 

Blackberry Port Wine

8 lb. ripe blackberries
1/2 pt. red grape concentrate
1/2 c. light dry malt
1-3/4 lb. granulated sugar
1/2 tsp. pectic enzyme
1-1/2 tsp. acid blend
5 to 5-1/2 pt. water (depends of size of berries)
1 crushed Campden tablet
1/2 tsp. yeast energizer
1 tsp. yest nutrient
1 pkt. Lalvin K1-V1116 (Montpellier) or a port wine yeast 


Wash and crush blackberries in nylon straining bag and strain juice into primary fermentation vessel. Tie top of nylon bag and place in primary. Stir in all other ingredients except pectic enzyme, yeast and red grape concentrate. Stir well to dissolve sugar, cover well, and set aside for 8-12 hours. Add pectic enzyme, recover, and set aside additional 8-12 hours. Add yeast, cover, stir ingredients daily, and press pulp in nylon bag to extract flavor. When specific gravity is 1.030 (about 5 days), strain juice from bag and siphon liquor off sediments into secondary fermentation vessel. Fit airlock and set aside. Rack in three weeks and again in two months. When wine is clear and well past last evidence of fermentation, stabilize, add red grape concentrate, and set aside for 3 weeks. If no evidence of refermentation, rack again and bottle. Allow at least a year to mature, but will improve for several years. [Author's own recipe]


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## ckassotis

So it does uses the malt for enhancing the body, as well as some concentrate. I was a little astounded at the amount of fruit you suggested though. 8 lbs already seems like a lot - you think it needs even more than that?

So use something like EC 1118 with an 18 abv tolerance, and then do the incremental sugar addition. I can do that. Sounds like the best plan. 

Fortify while sugar is still high? Wouldn't I want to let it ferment dry prior to adding any alcohol to raise the volume? I would certainly want to add alcohol in before adding an f-pack, if I understand correctly. And likely add some K meta also. 

I was reading another forum (or this one?) where they used this recipe and the maker seemed to successfully use it to make some wine (not port) afterwards. I thought that throughout the post he was chatting with a Wade, but I could be remembering wrong. I know I have the link somewhere, will have to look for it. 

I'll have to look into the whole freeze concentrating thing. Sounds interesting!


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## Turock

Interesting AND the easiest way to make port. PLUS--it tastes really fabulous. It's the cheaters way of making port, as real port is a whole interesting story in itself.

If I remember correctly, freeze concentration gives you an ABV of 24% when done from a 12-12.5% wine.


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## Wade E

8 lbs is what most of us use for a normal wine! Rember that for the most part most of us are cheating as the true way to make mOst wines is not to use any water at all!!! As for freeze distilation that is actually illegaland id like that removed from this forum! Im at work and on my phone and dont have the time at the minute to remove it myself!


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## Turock

Yeah--I figured you'd remove the post, so no harm done. With research, it's still quite up in the air about legality for a homewine maker to do it. They don't want commercial concerns who sell it to do it. Still seems crazy to me--sure it has to do with with taxation on abv.

I see ads on here for stills--so why is freeze distillation illegal? But as a mod--do what you think you need to.


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## ckassotis

Interesting. I think JK's recipes call for 2-4 lbs for a normal medium bodied fruit wine. But yeah, I do realize we are already cheating a bit. Haha. I wonder though if anyone truly ever does it the right way. I can't imagine commercial wineries not adding some water, but perhaps they don't! 

As for the easy way, I try to go out of my way to not make things easy on myself. Haha. I figure I learn more that way. I'd like to end up with a winery of my own at some point down the road, so I figure the more I can learn now, the better!


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## Turock

Basically, it's really hard to make port the correct way, for a home winemaker. You should Google port and see how it's REALLY made--very interesting story. The way I've always seen home winemakers do it is thru fortification or freeze distillation.


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## ckassotis

http://forum.finevinewines.com//for...W=Blackberry+port&PN=10&title=get-ready-waldo

That is the thread I was talking about. Pretty lengthy, but it looks like Wade is present on that forum also! Waldo is who I had remembered, but you are both present over there it seems.


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## ckassotis

What is the correct way? I was under the impression that most commercial wineries, including those in Porto, fortify their wines. Not with brandy, but with aguardente.

For example, this is an article on Graham's port, which as you may know, is considered one of the original Port Houses in Porto, Portugal.

http://malvedos.wordpress.com/winemaking/


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## ckassotis

Though this does raise the point that these great port houses are NOT letting their wines ferment to dryness, they are stopping at ~10% abv and fortifying from there to reach their desired 20% and keeping the residual sugar as their sweetener.


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## Turock

We make fruit wines with all juice and no water. I would think you'd want an intense tasting wine. We make alot of blackberry and I would say to go with what they said--more fruit will give you a full-bodied complex wine. I would suggest 6-8 pounds per gallon to attempt what you're doing.

That was interesting about the malt. Hope you try this and see how you do. I always encourage experiments because you learn so much from the result.


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## Turock

Yes---there you go. That is sounding familiar,now. It's been a few years since I read about REAL port production. Are you going to follow what Waldo is suggesting? That carboy looks delicious!!


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## ckassotis

Interesting! I bet no water added at all would certainly be intense. There is a local winery here in Missouri that put out a blackberry port last year that was simply to die for. I will need to ask them about it, see if they used 100% berries or what. Interesting. 

I think I will aim for 20 pounds then, and make 2 gallons (~16) with a few pounds left over that I can use to either juice and sweeten after, or to make an f-pac with. 

I have the malt and other ingredients ordered, will continue to post as I get this project going!


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## ckassotis

The JK recipe I believe is what Waldo/Jobe were doing in that thread. I think he might have made 1-2 small variations, will need to re-read to be sure. I will aim to follow that pretty closely though.


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## Turock

Using 20# for 2 gallons will be very good flavor and sounds like a good plan. I hate thin wines and always try to get fruit wine makers to stop using water and go all fruit. A big,chewy blackberry wine is almost like eating a blackberry pie---no wine flavor--big blackberry flavor. I would think a port made that way would be fabulous. As you go along with your plan, hope you'll let us know the result.


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## Wade E

Not to be a stickler but like I said before the act of freezing anything after alc has been done no matter what you call to extract a higher alc is a form of distillation and is illegal so please do not discuss it on this forum. I am not going to delete this but from now on please either email each other about this act or take it to a forum for distillation where they can deal with the consequences of this.


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## ckassotis

Interesting. Knew nothing about it, prior to this thread. There are some strange laws regarding wine making. I was told by a winemaker here that now that he has a commercial winery, they mandate that he uses tartaric acid alone rather than a blend or any other type to modify acid levels, even in fruit wines where a blend would be more appropriate. Odd. 

At any rate, going to go forward with 8 lbs per gallon I think, which seems to be in line with what other people are doing, and reserve 4 pounds for back-sweetening/flavor or for an f-pac, however I decide to do that.


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## WVMountaineerJack

When using that amount of blackberries you are going to probably have a high acid level at the end, you can balance it with sugar but also have to balance the alchohol with the acid and sugar. We have had good luck just stirring in the sugar, using a drill stirrer if needed after degassing and then adding everclear so we dont dilute the blackberry taste. Also, the extra light dried malt extract is an excellent addition for body and taste. One thing to consider when making your own F-pac is you can make your wine cloudy again by adding fresh juice or even after cooking it so adding pectinase before you add it to your wine and before fining helps alot.


Crackedcork


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## Turock

Yes, CK that was something I failed to mention but CrackedCork reminded me. When you begin to reduce water additions , your acids are going to be higher. It's a good plan to use a PH meter and adjust your acid at the primary so that you don't end up with a flawed wine that you're now going to use for the port. Get the PH around 3.3-3.4 Use calcium carbonate.

8# will be very good. Check your PH.

Wade--Ok, will do.


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## ckassotis

Thanks for the input!

I will keep my eye on TA and pH readings from the start so that I can adjust them if I need to before it sits for long lengths of time. 

I will certainly try my best to balance with the sugar and alcohol, but having a balanced wine is a pretty crucial point. Thanks for the tip!

Ah, thanks for the fpac tip also. Would you ferment, then stabilize, then f-pac, then fortify and then sweeten? I was between the f-pac idea or just juicing them and using them to back-sweeten after fortifying it. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole f-pac idea. 

I have a handle on some 190 proof Everclear, so I will use that to fortify, if nothing else. I have a brother in Europe right now, so I have him checking to see if he can find any aguardente. That would be fun to use. However, I did read something about the need in a fruit port of everclear, due to the already somewhat diluted flavors. If nothing else, I'll use the 190 proof EC for this and use aguardente to try some grape port in the future, since it has a considerably lower abv. Would be fun to use though, for sure.


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## mainecr

I started blueberry port in August of 2009. 
Using JK's recipe for starters and made an F-back from the juice of canned blueberries. Fortified to 18% using brandy, and tucked away for 2 years. Good thing I had lot's of other wine!
My wife has put it on the no give away list...first time anything has been listed on the no give away list. 
We first opened a bottle to celebrate my Dad's 80th bd. It's really good! Still have 10 bottles left...yummy!

Just finished the last bottle of 2008 pear. Bummer!


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## WVMountaineerJack

My other recomendation to you that I forgot to add is to get a freakin 3 gallon carboy and make 3 gallons and not fool around with 2 gallons. This is not one of those wines you start to drink a week after you bottle it so by the time its really good and ready you are going to run out of it and kick yourself in the rear for not going ahead and committing to making a full batch. Its also a good excuse to get a couple of carboys, never pass up an excuse to get more carboys. I broke one, got 2 to replace it, I got 3 extra carboy crates and was allowed to fill them, I put a lot of wine in carboys to age for alonger time and got to get more carboys, any excuse you can use get yourself some real carboys and skip the gallon batches, especially something like a port that is going to take a lot of work anyway.

Crackedcork


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## Wade E

I truly hope you are happy with this but Im telling yopu from experience when you get to higher abv you will want a stronger fruit flavor then 8lbs per gallon! In 3 years I bet I will be able to say "I told you so!


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## ckassotis

Wade, are you not the admin Wade from the FineVineWines forums? That blackberry port recipe that Jobe made with Waldo, and I think that you tried and seemed to think was quite good used the 8# per gallon. I guess I just wonder about using more than 8#. The JK recipes normally seem to be pretty spot on, and his typical fruit wines use 4-5ish/gal. 

Totally respect your opinion, just never seen a fruit wine call for more than 8, and only seen 8 for a port-style. Hrm. 

@ Cracked, I will consider it, but the cost of berries is the prohibitive part for me at the moment. I can get them at Sam's Club for a reasonable price, but being a poor graduate student, I'm stretching my budget going with 20#! Haha. Perhaps I can stretch it though, seeing how I should have a refund check coming, if all goes well. We'll see!


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## ckassotis

In fact, Waldo posted a blueberry port recipe in that same thread that only called for 6#. Am I misunderstanding something?


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## ckassotis

So i was mistakenly under the impression that the f-pac addition was adding more fruit back to extract flavor. After reading Tom's post, I realized that it instead was the simmering of fruit into juice and then straining, then adding that back to the carboy. I was thinking they were two different things. Guess that makes the decision between the two a bit easier! Haha.


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## Wade E

The recipe that Waldo posted was modified on the second batch as they both (Jobe&Waldo) decided it needed more fruit. The second batch was totally awesome and I still have second bottle of Jobes in my cellar! That being said if you make a good Fpac it will resolve the problem but in doing so you will diluting the abv down on wine where you are trying to achieve a higher alc so you are stepping backwards. I usually do the fpac but with a port I just use more to begin with. Its your wine so do what you want though.


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## Turock

Just be careful not to get it too dilute by adding water to get to the 3 gallons. The result will be too dilute. When we make blackberry wine, we are using 10-12 pounds of fruit per gallon--no water. The result is a big, chewy wine. I would think this is what you'd want in a port because you want high flavor.

Everclear is a good idea--it's what a lot of people use to get the abv up where it's needed.


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## ckassotis

Yeah, I understand. Please don't think I'm trying to be disagreeable, just trying to understand where you're coming from and how to possibly modify what I was planning. Absolutely always looking for advice and critiques!

So my plan #2 was for 8# per gallon, for 16# total for 2 gallons. Then I was plotting an f-pac of 4#, to equal roughly 10# per gallon. I do realize that that would be diluting the alcohol, but it should enhance everything else, right? Is there any problem with that? Let's assume I would be fortifying anyway, (which with a port, I would be). Wouldn't I just need a bit more alcohol? I suppose that that in itself would dilute the flavors a bit, if I needed to add more alcohol. Though, with 190 proof Everclear, I can't imagine that the difference would be that great. Any thoughts?

So you said you typically skip the f-pac for a port? I recall Jobe doing some testing on that, and he seemed to think that it was the best way to sweeten it back up after the fact. I guess this is due to some of the flavors burning off during fermentation? 

So if Turock uses 10-12# per gallon with no water, I guess it seems like 8# would be almost entirely no water. Unless I'm misunderstanding. In fact it seems like if I followed the recipe, I would be ending up with more than what they claim if I added that much water to the juice that Turock suggests I will have. Hrm. 

So, I could do a few things. I could try and up the berries a bit, maybe to 10#, with another 2#/gal for f-pac. I could add them all at once, but Jobe's posts made it sound like you really needed to add some juice back to give it a rich flavor. I could alternatively try and just increase to 3-gal, like was mentioned. Either one will hurt my bank account a bit, but sacrificing the quality of a wine that will be a significant investment of time,etc. just isn't worth it. So, any thoughts on all that?


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## Wade E

The less fruit you use the more water youll need to achieve your desired amount of wine so 8 lbs will require more water then using say 10 or 12. The fpac will work fine, another optionto add flavor later is to use something like Marcopolo concentrate which is all natural and is a great product for exactly this!


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## ckassotis

Started today! Got a bit over 20 pounds of fruit, and only added a little bit of water through my sugar addition. Sitting at ~2 gallons, hard to tell exactly with the straining bag in the mix. Have the malt and Campden in, will add pectic enzyme in the morning as the recipe suggests, and then proceed with a yeast starter tomorrow night and get it added to the must. Smells quite good!


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## Wade E

Should be a damned good one! Keep us up to date on this. Are you using energizer and or nutrient? Blueberry naturally contains benzoate so I recommend using both when doing Blueberry or Cranberry.


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## joeswine

*Freezing the juice*

 ACTUALLY ITS THE RIGHT CONCEPT,AS I POST SOMEWAYS BACK, SOMEWHERE IN TIME,IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY,TO ACHIEVE A REAL CONCENTRATED FLAVOR,EXAMPLE,TAKE A CONTAINER OF FROZEN ORANGE JUICE,FREEZE IT,TAKE IT OUT,TURN IT UPSIDE DOWN ,LET IT DEFROST IN A CONTAINER THAT IS A LITTLE LARGER THAN THE JUICE CONTAINER,WATCH IT DEFROST,THE FIRST TO DRIP OUT IS THE PURE CONCENTRATE LEAVING BEHIND THE ICE>>>PURE CONCENTRATE,VERY SIMILAR TO THOSE OF YOU WHO FREEZE YOUR FRUIT BEFORE PROCESSING,CONCENTRATING THE JUICE AND DEHYDRATING OUT THE WATER.


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## ckassotis

I feel fairly confident that this is the thing Wade said was illegal and not to post about. Haha. 

I was planning to use energizer and nutrient - I didn't know why though! Haha. Thanks for the tip. Do you add the energizer at the same time that you add your yeast?


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## grapeman

Wade was talking about fractional crystalization or freezing alcohol to boost it. Joeswine is talking about concentrating orange juice- totally legal and acceptable. And yes, I am Appleman over at FVW - Co-Admin over there.


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## ckassotis

Interesting. So to be sure I understand...

So freezing say, some blackberry juice and using this method to create a high-sugar high-alcohol wine is completely okay. I guess I see parallels here to just using concentrate that is made in more conventional ways. 

So the other method is to freeze the alcohol itself, which concentrates both the flavors, sugars, and alcohol? I guess I don't see the fun in that anyway, why not just make it strong to begin with?


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## grapeman

You can make it strong until the yeast dies off from the alcohol poisoning. You are not considered *******ing so it is legal. Go make some port!


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## ckassotis

Marvelous. Once the yeast die off, you can just fortify it anyway from there! I picked up some Everclear 190, and have some Blackberry brandy. My brother is picking up some aguardente in Italy, which is what they use in Porto, but it (and brandy) are relatively low abv compared to Everclear. Will have to taste test them all when it comes time to decide!


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## Wade E

The only good Black berry brandy I know is polish and is called something like Jeznowka (spelling?) The other ones to my knowledge are pretty nasty! 
As far as the nutrient gose put that in right in the beginning. The energizer should be stepped while fermenting like 1/3rd up front in primary, 1/3rd when the yeast has eaten about 1/3rd of the sugar and the last 3rd when the yeast has eaten about 2/3rds of the sugar. Thsat will keep the yeast the happiest and get it further then dumping it all in at the beginning.


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## Turock

An interesting side-note to the discussion of taking juice, freezing it, and taking off the concentrated juice and leaving the water behind----this is the way to make "fake" ice wine. I never tried it because you need quite a bit of freezer space. You could use 2 liter pop bottles. I'd be interested to hear how wine would turn out from this process---then I might HAVE to get some freezer space to try it. I'll bet it would be top shelf wine!!


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## ckassotis

Hmm.. interesting thoughts. I'll have to keep an eye out for that, Wade!

Thanks for the nutrient/energizer info as well. I think I added a bit too much sugar up front, so I went with a yeast starter last night, will see how it looks when I get home today. Hopefully I'll walk into a wonderful yeasty smell. 

@ Turock. I wonder also at how that compares with the "real way" of letting the fruit freeze and then crushing from there. Might be an interesting experiment! Perhaps I'll buy some vignoles this season and give that a shot with them. 

So, I do have some extra fruit for an f-pac. What are your thoughts on the best way to go about this. Try to mash them up as well as I can, get the most juice of of the berries as possible (currently frozen, which should help I think), and then put it on the stove to concentrate it a bit before adding? I'm still a ways away from this, but thought I'd get your thoughts on it. 

Thanks as always!


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## Midwest Vintner

ckassotis said:


> I feel fairly confident that this is the thing Wade said was illegal and not to post about. Haha.



No, what Joe seems to be talking about is concentrating juice to make a stronger tasting wine. The other thing is to concentrate alcohol, which is illegal.


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## ckassotis

Yep, grapeman explained that above a bit. Wasn't realizing the distinction between them at the time. 

How are things going at your winery? I stopped by there just after you opened, when I was bringing some friends for their first Hermann visit. Hopefully you guys are doing well? Selling lots and making new, fun stuff?


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## joeswine

*Extracting the concentrate*

 Thanks for the help in clarifying that but the idea it is to extract the pure juice and leave behind the water, testing about freezing your fruit and then making your fpac' same idea although that's not the way I do it it can be done that way thanks for the clarity


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## ckassotis

Looking good tonight! Yeast are happily chowing down, and the SG is dropping. The smell is quite good, rich blackberry. Can't quite smell the malt right now, but I think the yeast smell is masking that a bit. 

The other thing I noticed tonight was that the color has already darkened considerably, to what looks like a deep purple. So far so good!


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## ckassotis

Just was reading this other thread:

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15732

Any thoughts on using the everclear vs. something else? I was intending to use everclear, but this thread makes it sound like that isn't the best bet after all.


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## WVMountaineerJack

When we make ours, we get all the flavor from our fruit that we need, then backsweeten and add everclear. We use everclear because it has the least water in the bottle. You may get some more flavor from brandy but you are adding a lot more water with brandy than you would with everclear. If your wine is a little weak on flavor the brandy might be your best bet, if you did a good job with the base wine you shouldnt need it. CC


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## ckassotis

So, the port has a bit of an off-odor tonight. I can't quite place what it smells like. Any likely contenders? The fermentation is about done, down to 1.004. So there is still a bit that could ferment, but the abv has to be at least 15% by now. Could do the calculation, but started at 1.130. The pressing bag was removed yesterday. Could be that the yeast have died, and they are contributing to the off-smell. I racked it into a new container through a filter bag to remove any additional bits that had escaped the first bag, but wasn't sure what to do from here. Thoughts?


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## Wade E

Sounds like everything went good. I woudnt be worried unless you were smelling a strong sulfur smell. There are so many different smells a fermentaion will give off and most are really indescribable!


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## ckassotis

Thanks, Wade. I was getting a bit nervous, hah. 

Would you recommend just sulfiting and stabilizing then, and moving forward with the sweetening and fortifying?


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## ckassotis

So after doing a bit of reading, I think it might be described as a bit of a sourish smell. I know I have pH and TA written down at home, but I read that this could be due to having too high acid in a wine. I think I recall it being a bit higher than I normally like, but I figured I would be meeting that high acidity with high abv and sugar at the end. 

So let's assume that is the case. Too late to add a bit of calcium carbonate? Will it go away over time once I fortify and sweeten? I can post more concrete values later, but it sounds like that could be the issue.


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## ckassotis

Any input on this? Possible causes for the sourish smell/taste?

I tried some calcium carbonate last night, but not sure what I should have been expecting. It certainly lowered the acidity, but not sure if it was supposed to correct the sourness or if only time will do that.

Alternatively, I could sweeten, and perhaps the sweet in combination would solve the issue? Not really sure where to go from here. Seems like not adding all that water up front that JK calls for might have messed me up a bit. Since I wasn't, I should have been correcting for factors that probably don't need correcting in his recipe.

At any rate, would appreciate some input on this.


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## woodlan

greyday ; that is the way I do it..


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