# Is it ok to share wine that your pet imbibed first



## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2011)

This is an outcrop of another topic i was reading...the question is this...if your pet, let us use cat or dog as the pet in the example, were to stick its mouth in your fermenting or pre-fermented wine would you then feel good about sharing this wine with friends and family?


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## surlees (Jan 12, 2011)

Yes. Human pathogens do not grow in wine. If they pee'd in it, I would not serve it because it may have too much ammonia odor.

Fred


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## Runningwolf (Jan 12, 2011)

It can't be nearly as bad as the mice, spiders, etc going in with the harvest.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2011)

wow...two yes's to my no ( current poll stats while writing this post)

gotta be honest...i would not consider drinking your wine no matter how well raved about ...how in demand it is or how many awards it may have gotten..to me its the principle...because if this is ok to a winemaker then what else to they allow?????


this topic should be 100% throw it in the compost pile


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## surlees (Jan 12, 2011)

Not to mention in the food we eat: peanut butter; grains such as corn, wheat, oats; milk and dairy products, and on and on. It's all nutritious with minerals and vitamins (sadly no alcohol to kill the germs).

Fred


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## Sirs (Jan 12, 2011)

Like I said in other post to me it's a bigggggg no no also


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## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2011)

So Fred, you are lumping dog saliva and whatever was on its mouth a few minutes before in the same group as ..."nutritious with minerals and vitamins"


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um...ok........but not for me...sorry


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## GerardVineyard (Jan 12, 2011)

If that bothers you, I advise you to never eat in a restaurant again. I have worked in restaurant kitchens for 28 years and I could tell you all sorts of stories of what can happen to your food.


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## surlees (Jan 12, 2011)

> So Fred, you are lumping dog saliva and whatever was on its mouth a few minutes before in the same group as ..."nutritious with minerals and vitamins"


Just being realistic.

Fred


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## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2011)

Sirs...apparently its you and me

Gerard..i have worked at a restaraunt as well...there are GOOD places that what you refer to...does NOT happen

Fred...you are right..you are being realistic...people by and large have gotten used to mediocrity and lowering of standards...they can drink your wine ...not me...sorry


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## surlees (Jan 12, 2011)

> Fred...you are right..you are being realistic...people by and large have gotten used to mediocrity and lowering of standards...they can drink your wine ...not me...sorry



Good. I'll drink your wine then. What have you got that's fully aged? I'll PM you my address.

Fred


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## woodsxdragon (Jan 13, 2011)

for people worried about what goes into your food... how many have worked fast food? i did in high school. there is a reason i dont eat wendys chilli anymore. also i never order mass amounts from them... ever.


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## Runningwolf (Jan 13, 2011)

In reality my dogs don't even go into my basement. If they did, they are so small they can't even reach the top of a primary (small yorkies). I go in full attack mode as many of you know when I even see a fruit fly.


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## djrockinsteve (Jan 13, 2011)

It is a real shame. I try to do to others as I would like to have done to me. Yet along the line many folks are drawn to the almighty dollar side.

Long ago when I started at a fast food rest. (like all of us) I was taught if the frozen meat patty falls on the floor still use it as the heat will kill the germs. The few that ever did make it to the floor when I was working never made it to the grill folks.

Sunday I stopped at another F.F. place and had a pepsi. It tasted weak and I told the girl. She got me one from the other fountain. It tasted the same. Sorry was all I got. How about here's your money back and my manager is fixing it NOW!

Customer service has really gone way down in many areas. Why bother to keep a customer when we'll get someone else from the other place. It will all work out.


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## JohnT (Jan 13, 2011)

djrockinsteve said:


> It is a real shame. I try to do to others as I would like to have done to me. Yet along the line many folks are drawn to the almighty dollar side.
> 
> Long ago when I started at a fast food rest. (like all of us) I was taught if the frozen meat patty falls on the floor still use it as the heat will kill the germs. The few that ever did make it to the floor when I was working never made it to the grill folks.
> 
> ...




This is what happens when people earn next to nothing and do not care about their job. There is simply no incentive for them to do better. 

On this note, I have heard many people talk about doing away with tips at restaurants. I could not dis-agree more. You can always tell a waiter that works on tips from one that does not. The one that works on tip usually puts the customer first.


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## Redtrk (Jan 13, 2011)

I worked at a root beer stand when I was in HS. The owner who is now a county commissioner would let anything go. He would pick flies out of the hotdog chili and give it a stir. The same with the root beer base. Fruit flies! No problem, just stir em up and let the filter do the work. 
I now operate large sheet metal shop and we build guards for machines in the food industry and other types of manufacturing. I can tell you to stay far away from processed meats like bologna etc. The FDA inspector sees a bunch of flies in a vat of meat not a problem if it's less than so many per X amount of pounds. If it's above the limit no problem either just re-grind it and it's good. And that's WITHOUT picking out the flies! What the FDA allows is 1 billion times worse than any dog licking wine in the primary. 
As for the wine, I would doubt that the dogs licked it but if I was sure I would probably dump it and start over.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 13, 2011)

WOW! so currently the votes are 10-2-0-2..i am thoroughly shocked especially based on the comments..people wont eat at certain restaraunts ( which i understand) because of things they have seen...and others have no problem w the dogs in the wine...next thing i will see is people throwing good left overs in the dog bowl and then realizing those were dem damn good ribs and they lean down and eat out of the dog bowl w fido

i am shocked that a winemaker finds this to be ok....shocked! ten of you!!!!!!! wow!


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## surlees (Jan 13, 2011)

I would bet the average household dog has less mouth bacteria than the average human.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 13, 2011)

even if you are right..let us say that there is science behind your statement...there is still one flaw in it which you are excusing in two manners

one - the average dog? so you are willing to let the one that is not average..having more bacteria and slime and who knows what...get into your wine and then sharing w others

that is beyond belief....

two - there is a fairness principle involved here that a guest or recipient or customer of your wine should expect...a decency...you are denying them that and in America you are free to do that.....glad i dont for i adhere to an old adage...do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

this poll has been very enlightening to me


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## surlees (Jan 13, 2011)

I think we're getting way too serious here. All of my posts have been tongue-in-cheek and not intended to evoke passionate opinions one way or the other. Mearly playing devil's advocate. 

I do believe my dogs (I have 3) are cleaner and not as slobbery as many, but I would never intentionally serve wine to guests that I thought was contaminated by them. That said, if one of my dogs happened to lap a little must or unfinshed wine I certainly wouldn't dispose of the whole lot. I would just drink it myself. While I don't kiss or allow my dogs to lick me anywhere, they do occasionally sneek a lick to my face afterwhich I wash it off. The world is full of germs and beyond trying to avoid human pathogens (none of which thrive in dogs), I depend upon the body's natural defenses to protect me from disease. I'm sure a lot of dog owners feel the same as I do.

(Notice I have a parrot also). 

Fred


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## JohnT (Jan 13, 2011)

getting back to the topic.. 

I would have to say that this depends on the wine..

... cough, cough... Welches.. cough, cough.


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## Runningwolf (Jan 13, 2011)

surlees said:


> I would bet the average household dog has less mouth bacteria than the average human.



My vet is big into dogs teeth (and money) and when he puylled up my 12 year old dogs lip to show me the bacteria built up on the gums and teeth it was totally disgusting. This was the real thing but it reminded me of the black lungs x-ray they used to show to smokers.


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## Sirs (Jan 13, 2011)

well I think all of us can say we've seen and heard horror stories from restuarants. I'm in no way a germaphob as I know most of these people will probly be killed off with the next big disaster that comes through lol. I do however try my best to keep a certain amount of cleanliness when I'm making either meals or wine or whatever. I wonder if your dog happened to grab one of your steaks you was fixing to cook and sat down and chewed on it for a few if you'd simply throw it in the pan and cook away as the heat will kill anything we know??? You'd probly cut off where he had eaten off of and wash the rest good or let him have it. Myself I'd probly let him have it then kill him and eat him LOL


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## jtstar (Jan 13, 2011)

Al you can put my vote with yours as I work in a packing house (Tyson Inc.) and we have a very strict guild lines that we have to follow if a piece of meat falls on the floor and you don't take short cuts when cleaning a piece of meat that has fallen on the floor and I have also seen what my dogs like to put into their mouths


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## UglyBhamGuy (Jan 13, 2011)

When i read the topic i thought you meant wine that had gone through the pet. 

Heck yeah, i would serve it, if they just taste tested it.
As long as my long haired dachshund, "Scooter the PITA" (real name, no lie) leaves enough.


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## Minnesotamaker (Jan 13, 2011)

All things considered, doggie slobber is pretty benign.

After all.... wine is fruit juice and yeast excrement.

Would you serve a guest a carrot? Carrots were grown in and have incorporated properties from soil that contains dead and rotting vegitation, buffalo, gophers, wolly mamoths, saber tooth cats, dinosaurs, worms and larva, etc. I'm sure every shovel full of soil contains atoms from human corpses.

And don't forget the water. It's contained all kinds of carrion from drowned animals, to run-off, and rotting fish. It should be safe though, because nature has filtered it through the soil listed above.

In summary, while I wouldn't encourage a big drooly-mouthed hound to stand over my primary, I wouldn't get too worked up about a little back-wash. Humans are designed to ward off environmental attacks from all directions and when healthy, we do a pretty good job of it.

So bring on the slobber wine. If fact, I think I'll add dog slobber to my wine flavor profile wheel. To accurately detect it though, I'll need to get a good first hand analysis so that I know what I'm looking for.

Put your face really close to the screen and have a taste.


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## GerardVineyard (Jan 13, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> Gerard..i have worked at a restaraunt as well...there are GOOD places that what you refer to...does NOT happen



I have worked at more than a restaurant, I have worked everything from Mom & Pop to 4 star white tablecloth. Trust me, it happens at all of them.

The FDA puts out a book that lists all *acceptable* "foreign material" that may appear in food & drink and still be considered acceptable. I have not seen the book since culinary school but I would guess that a little dog spittable would be acceptable.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 13, 2011)

13 -3-0-4

so thirteen people here would go ahead w their wine after pooch took his share..i have heard of angel's share but now we have a new category....the 'dog's share'...hmmm i guess you folks now have a new quandry....what to top off with???? or maybe you just get marbles? 

13 home winemakers????

Gerard... i want to listen to you but you trotted out the FDA as a beacon of what is acceptable? sounds once again like a gov't agency who could not produce a pencil for a profit...sorry but the FDA is not a bonafide witness for your case

i am surprised ....and by the way, i did not work at as many places as you...just a national hotel chain's restaurant and would love to say i could agree w you but i never saw one employee there do anything untoward regarding their guests food...just my experience

Lon, nice argument that takes the previous 'relativity' points...but to me its still principal....its not fair to your wine recipient if you knew this had occurred and that is good enough and simple enough for me...as for yeast cells...they do their job, fall to the bottom and you rack off...you are presenting natures nectar to your wine drinking family....not Fido's slobber

the four of you who voted that you would save for your enemies....http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/happy0199.gif well you folks have a sense of humor


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## RedNeckWino (Jan 14, 2011)

Save it for the friends that only come around when they want something.
I personally don't have pets in the house for other reasons. We are not home enough to be fair to the animal. Not to mention we are both allergic to cats and dogs. I love my friends pets and play with them when I really need a fix.


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2011)

*I'm shocked ...*

First, it would be impossible for my dog to get to my wine, but ...

I'm not going to let the fact that there are things beyond my control allow me to not control the things I can control.

Thanks for posting this.  Just one more reason to NOT drink wine from OTHER home winemakers - you never know what you'll be drinking.

I take great pride in the exactness and cleanliness of MY processes. I'm still in shock ...

These responses are as telling as they are sickening.


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## Dugger (Jan 14, 2011)

Interesting topic - it seems there are two parts to this - one is the principle of something disgusting coming in contact with the wine and then sharing it with others and the other is possible contamination of the wine. 
Going back to UglyBhamGuys inference of wine that had gone through the dog, what if someone peed in the wine ( perhaps an adventurous small boy!) - now this would be deemed disgusting by most, but urine is generally considered sterile and would not contaminate the wine. Would this change your vote?


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## Runningwolf (Jan 14, 2011)

Oh Man, where is this thread going?


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## AlFulchino (Jan 14, 2011)

Dan....i think it is better talked about than hidden...i would never have expected the response of the 14 thus far seeing that so much time is spent on kmeta....do you not feel there is a strange dichotomy presented here ob behalf of the 14 respondents who have no issue w doggie saliva remaining in their wine?

it is not the thread that is driving off the road..its is certain winemaking practices..i encourage you Dan and all of the 14 to literally do a poll of THEIR OWN FRIENDS AND FAMILY...ask the very same question i asked w the accompanying answers.....see if the friends and family start thinking different of what wine is shared w them....the truth will be in the puddin' do your own local familt friend polling

another respondent countered with:

"I take great pride in the exactness and cleanliness of MY processes. I'm still in shock ..."

that is the kind of response i would expect from the show me state.


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## Julie (Jan 14, 2011)

i'm with Dan on this one, what is the purpose of this poll? Once you have this information what are you planning on doing with it?


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## Brian (Jan 14, 2011)

Minnesotamaker said:


> .
> So bring on the slobber wine. If fact, I think I'll add dog slobber to my wine flavor profile wheel. To accurately detect it though, I'll need to get a good first hand analysis so that I know what I'm looking for.



hahahaha Lon I expect to see the Skeeter pee recipe on the web page change to include (1/2 cup dog slobber) very soon!


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## Minnesotamaker (Jan 14, 2011)

Dugger said:


> Interesting topic - it seems there are two parts to this - one is the principle of something disgusting coming in contact with the wine and then sharing it with others and the other is possible contamination of the wine.
> Going back to UglyBhamGuys inference of wine that had gone through the dog, what if someone peed in the wine ( perhaps an adventurous small boy!) - now this would be deemed disgusting by most, but urine is generally considered sterile and would not contaminate the wine. Would this change your vote?



I'd think your scenerio would change many voter's opinions. Two things stand out. One is pure volume. We're now talking about substantive addition vs. a few droplets. The source is also different in that while possibly not harmful, it is traditionally taboo. 

Pertaining to Bob's post: ignorance is bliss. If you eat anything prepared or processed, you're being exposed to all sorts of things that may not meet your approval. The fact that there are FDA allowable contamination limits tells me that you consume repugnant items every single day. How many times have you heard people say that they won't ever again eat _____ [fill in the blank] because they used to work there and they know what goes into it. Yet, they'll still eat different but similar processed food items. Are they thinking that the only bad food item on the planet is the one they worked around? With few exceptions, it's all in people's minds. 

I believe all wine makers strive for absolute best practices. They take reasonable steps to avoid risks. The way I looked at the original questions was twofold:

A) If you had a batch of must or actively fermenting wine, and a dog's mouth came in contact with it, would you throw out the entire batch? 
B) Secondly, do you think it would be your duty to inform drinkers that the wine was exposed.

For question A, the poll speaks for itself. It tells me that people understand the realities of what we put in our mouths; even though it might not be pleasant to talk about.

For question B, ignorance is bliss. If the wine is safe, clean, and pleasant, giving the consumer a disclaimer serves no purpose other than to inhibit their enjoyment. As makers of wine, we all know that a bottle of wine contains a certain percent of bird crap, bug parts, insect eggs, dirt, etc., but we don't dwell on it with every swallow. For people who aren't aware of this fact, it could be shocking to them.


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2011)

Minnesotamaker said:


> Pertaining to Bob's post: ignorance is bliss. If you eat anything prepared or processed, you're being exposed to all sorts of things that may not meet your approval. The fact that there are FDA allowable contamination limits tells me that you consume repugnant items every single day.


 
Two things:

First, I said in my post, "I'm not going to let the fact that there are things beyond my control allow me to not control the things I can control." 

This means that I'm NOT considering the FDA's loose standards as good enough for my wine.

Second, the question itself implies that you're not ignorant of the fact that your animal just slobbered in your wine - the 'ignorance is bliss' argument doen't apply to the dog-slobbered wine.

As a final point, and my last post in this thread, I consider *knowingly* allowing someone else to drink wine that your animal slobbered in to demonstrate a TOTAL lack of respect for others. Unless, of course, you tell them about the animal slobber BEFORE they drink the wine. That bit of disclosure would make it their decision, not yours.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 14, 2011)

"i'm with Dan on this one, what is the purpose of this poll? Once you have this information what are you planning on doing with it? " from Julie

Julie...this topic was borne out of another topic where another member asked what to do because he had reason to believe his dog had been into his wine....some people thought ..hey no problem.....i found this odd and wanted to query folks as to general sentiment.....i find your question rather odd....what is it that i could do about it???? do you believe i have some nefarious motive? I continue to be shocked at the response and hopefully i allowed my belief on this...I have sene that more people than i would have imagined, believe accidental dog saliva in a wine is ok to share....remember the question was about sharing...if anyone here wants to drink their own wine w this issue, far be it for me to question them.....but sharing it, to me anyways crossed the line..your question to me about what *i* am going to do w the information makes me feel you are offended that i even ran the poll to begin with.

I believe the poll did highlight something and i will leave it at that.

This quote sums up what i could NOT apparently say in just a few words...it is from Bob F:

"Second, the question itself implies that you're not ignorant of the fact that your animal just slobbered in your wine - the 'ignorance is bliss' argument doen't apply to the dog-slobbered wine.

As a final point, and my last post in this thread, I consider *knowingly* allowing someone else to drink wine that your animal slobbered in to demonstrate a TOTAL lack of respect for others. Unless, of course, you tell them about the animal slobber BEFORE they drink the wine. That bit of disclosure would make it their decision, not yours. "

Julie and Dan...i had no nefarious motive in asking a reasonable question spontaneously generated by another members topic....my question really now is why focus on me....why not wonder yourselves just why fourteen winemakers would be ok with this practice?

I am gonna take Bob's lead..my last post on the subject.

Thank you for the opportunity in the first place to read the story that prompted the poll and then place the poll and to discuss it.


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## Julie (Jan 14, 2011)

My questions were based on confusion. Please understand when I see ANY post that starts into a semblance of an argument, I am now cautious. One little judgement on one person that will anger someone will send this thread down the wrong path in a heartbeat.

We as mods must maintain a civil air on the forum and we get a little worried when threads like this pop up. As long as everyone can voice their opinion and be respectful to everyone else the thread is find. But once you criticize one person's action and that person takes offence, then a mod has to come in and either ban the post or the thread and that is something that none of us take joy in doing. This is my reason for asking where this thread was going.


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2011)

Julie - Hopefully most here are adult enough (despite evidence to the contrary depicted in some of the 'humor') to be able to disagree without getting combative.


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2011)

Julie, 

I think that this post should go into ... 

"what was your dog doing in the winery in the first place"?


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## Julie (Jan 14, 2011)

BobF said:


> Julie - Hopefully most here are adult enough (despite evidence to the contrary depicted in some of the 'humor') to be able to disagree without getting combative.



Yes I do believe all of you are capable of doing that but sometimes you have that bad day.....



JohnT said:


> Julie,
> 
> I think that this post should go into ...
> 
> "what was your dog doing in the winery in the first place"?



LOL, maybe it is the Bow Wow Winery  Sorry!


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## JohnT (Jan 14, 2011)

all I can say .... 

"It's a Dog-eat-dog world out there and I am wearing milkbone underwear"!


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## GerardVineyard (Jan 14, 2011)

Getting away from the home winemaker, lets talk commercial wine makers. With the tons and tons of grapes that they crush you don't think there are "little extras" in their wines. What about bugs, spiders, bird droppings, etc that are in / on the grapes when they are crushed? What about things that happen to find their way into open top tanks that sit outside? Sanitation may get rid of the little fella's but they were once in the must / wine.


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2011)

Thinking about the misc 'stuff' in tons of grapes, I asked myself this question:
"Does the fact that there is 'stuff' in the must *really* mean I should tolerate -more- *stuff*?"

My answer was, "No."


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## kirbyclk (Jan 14, 2011)

this post/poll was started because of a post i made about my dogs getting into my primary....

here is the original thread:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11560

just to update you guys...YES i am continuing to make the batch because i am not even sure that the dogs came into contact with the must, only that they got the lid off and my tshirt covering the bucket was partially submerged in the must.

that being said, fermentation began last night and the wine looks, smells, and is fermenting just as it should. 

on a side note, i am even going to use my YEAST SLURRY to make a batch of skeeter pee!


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## BobF (Jan 14, 2011)

Kirby - You might to read the story about eating dog food. If your dog did get into the your wine, you might develop urges you've never had before. According to the story, these urges can be dangerous ;-)


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## Larryh86GT (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm curious why dogs lick their butts? I'd probably toss the wine.


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## Catfish (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't think I could serve it to someone after my dog drank it. 

For you people on here with grape presses, what if you just pressed out 100 gallons of juice. You were cleaning out the grape skins or however you do it, and find a mouse. Would you get rid of the 100 gallons ($$$$) of juice.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 15, 2011)

"For you people on here with grape presses, what if you just pressed out 100 gallons of juice. You were cleaning out the grape skins or however you do it, and find a mouse. Would you get rid of the 100 gallons ($$$$) of juice."


you asked......my answer .....yes....in .01 seconds and that because i will have blinked first at the shock


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## Randoneur (Jan 15, 2011)

I'm feeling sick. I could not drink it myself, and even more so, could not give it to someone else.


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## Catfish (Jan 15, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> "For you people on here with grape presses, what if you just pressed out 100 gallons of juice. You were cleaning out the grape skins or however you do it, and find a mouse. Would you get rid of the 100 gallons ($$$$) of juice."
> 
> 
> you asked......my answer .....yes....in .01 seconds and that because i will have blinked first at the shock



That's good to know. I'm afraid a big % of wineries would go ahead and sell the juice or use it for their own wine. That would be a big money hit to throw away that much juice.


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## kirbyclk (Jan 15, 2011)




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## djrockinsteve (Jan 15, 2011)

Folks, I think we have covered this topic enough. What started as a simple sip or so has almost turned into a bath in the wine and starting to make people ill. IMO

Whatta ya say we put this topic to rest?


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## Runningwolf (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks Steve I agree!


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