# New to growing grapes



## krafty_kraut (Apr 25, 2012)

I bought a 1.5 acre parcel last year with the intent on growing juice and wine grapes. I placed my order for delivery next year 2013 from Double A Vineyards. Each of my rows will be 192' long with 24 grapes each.

24 Marquette
24 Steuben 
24 Concord
8 Traminette + 8 Noiret + 8 NY76 (supposed to go commercial next year)
10 America + 10 Edelweiss + 4 Swenson Red
8 F Gris + 8 St Croix + 8 St Vincent
24 mixed seedless and juice grapes

I would like to get a GDC system in for the American grapes and a VSP for the hybrids. 12' between the GDC rows and 8' between the hybrids. Should /could I go GDC on all?

My two concerns are the Concord grapes and the Edelweiss grapes. Am I wasting a row on the Concords when I could put a full row of a really nice wine grape that makes very good juice as well. I've read with the Edelweiss that it can turn funky very quickly after it is ripe. I am thinking about St Pepin to replace that...or Vidal Blanc. Is the juice from the Marquette or Noiret really good so I could put a full row of either of these two?

I was shooting for disease resistance and very good to excellent wine descriptions from multiple sources...except the St Vincent. That's the island where my wife is from so I had to plant that.

I do know I like sweet white wines but would like to try others. I did read somebody's post that I should taste the juice before I plant....I don't have that option. It's a great idea but I work to much right now to drive 3-4 hours one way to the wineries that have these varieties.

Soil analysis below

Soil pH 7.7 (I think that is too high)
Phosphorus 34 ppm
Potassium 69 ppm
Magnesium 184 ppm

Calcium 2690 ppm
CEC 15.2
Organic Matter 2.6

% of Exchangeable Bases
K 1.2
Mg 10.1
Ca 88.7

Fairly sandy soil below 18" of topsoil. I dug down three feet and saw no discoloration of soil and the hole did not fill with water even though it was a rainy fall. The land is fairly flat and rectangular in shape. It was farm land 5 years ago and has been fallow.

The information that this site has is amazing so any input would set my mind at ease! Does anybody know anything about the America grape too?


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## grapeman (Apr 25, 2012)

Wow you have a lot of info and questions for one post! First off Welcome to the forum.

The pH looks pretty high and you might want to bring that down a bit.

Recommendations for vinifera(GPV), Hybrids (GPF, I think), and Native Labrusca types (GPA) differprincipally in the target soil pH and lime requirements.

GPV – based on target of 6.5

GPF – Based on target of 6.0

GPA- based on target of 5.5(because they are more acid tolerant and higher pH can lead to Fe deficiency.

You should likely add some sulfur product to bring the pH down. What did the soil test recommend?

Your varieties look OK,
The trellis types are alright, but I would put the VSP at 9 feet to give you a little more room to get through.

Concord could be bough in some places really cheap. You don't say where you are from. 
Edelweiss doesn't go bad, it merely tends to get too much lambrusca character when fully ripe. Pick it when about 17 brix, add sugar and it makes a wonderful juice or wine.

St Pepin would make a great juice and also a very good wine for a white and may be finished sweet or dry.

Let's see what some others have to say for you.


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## saddlebronze (Apr 25, 2012)

I am not the expert here, Grapeman is and he will be along soon. From what I read, your choice of the Marquette, Traminette, St Vincent and St Croix are good, would question some of the others like Concord, etc, unless you wanted to make jam or sell grapes. As for spacing, I would make it based on the machinery you are going to use, and give a little extra to avoid hitting vines. As for pH, definately too high. Wine grapes prefer 6.5 or lower. As for trellis, I am going with Double A has on their website for each variety, but Grapeman's modified GDC does look promising. I would look at Chardonel for another white. Looks like you are off to a great start though.


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 25, 2012)

I meant to post this in the original. I talked to the farmer that used to have the land and his pH is between 6.5 and 6.8. That is why I think that the pH is too high.

I sure appreciate everybody's help.


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 25, 2012)

I got 24 of the Concords from Double A for 36 dollars....I thought, "How can I go wrong with that?"


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 25, 2012)

I've had my eye on Chardonel but the disease resistance chart gave me some concerns. How are your plants doing?

My mom has some Frontenac vines at her place and she mentioned that their leaves are fairly shiny. I have one Frontenac and two Frontenac Gris in the ground at my place. My mom brought up that the plants with the shiny leaves get attacked more by the Japanese Beetle (she had King of the North at another place and they were hammered by the Japanese Beetle as well). And when I looked at what I had with my few grape vines in the back yard my Frontenac vines seemed to be prefered by the beetle. Do you have the same issues with these plants?

As for my row of Concords, what hybrid variety would that you see in my order that you would say, "You should put a full row of that in instead of the Concord."


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## grapeman (Apr 25, 2012)

If you like a sweet white wine, put in a whole row of NY76.0844.24. They do great, are pretty disease resistant and taste delightful. I suggested that name (Delight) to Bruce Reisch (breeder), but it had been used. I was told by Bruce that it is off the restricted for quantity list. It makes a wonderful Muscat type wine and retains just enough acid to balance perfectly at a semi-sweet level, but is also great as a dry wine. Can you tell I like this one. I have had experience with it for 7 years now.


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 25, 2012)

I'll definitely take your advice on the NY76.0844.24 and plant a whole row of that variety.

When I bought the house I'm in now, the previous owners left 2 fifty pound bags of agricultural sulfer 0-0-0-90 in my shed... and I live in the city. Now, it looks as though I might be able to use it. But, should I forgo the American varieties and go with Hybrids just to be safe?

Also, I'll be building a shed on the property as well. In your opinion, what essentials should I have for my shed as far as size and what I'll need to make it efficient for my tiny vineyard?

It is very cool that you work with the breeders.


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 26, 2012)

I keep forgetting to post this for the recommendations for the grapes from the MSU county extension.

Limestone: None
Nitrogen: 60 lb/A
Phosphate: 35 lb/A
Potassium: 110 lb/A

No mention of sulfur.


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 26, 2012)

Grapeman, do you have photos of your modified GDC? Also, is that St Pepin in your avatar?


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## krafty_kraut (Apr 28, 2012)

Ok after listening to some more input, what about this line-up.

24 Marquette VSP
24 Marquette VSP
24 NY76 VSP
24 NY76 VSP
24 St Pepin GDC
24 Steuben GDC
8 Frontenac Gris + 8 St Croix + 8 St Vincent GDC
8 Traminette + 8 Noiret + 8 Vidal Blanc VSP
10 America + 10 Edelweiss + 4 Swenson Red GDC
28 mixed GDC

10 rows now and I'll be done.


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## clusterbuster75 (Mar 25, 2013)

you going to spray these grapes? Different grapes need different sprays based on the susceptibility to diseases and have totally different bloom times.

some grapes you can use sulpher and some you can't(which is good, organic, and cheap). I'd keep my grapes blocked together, as in put them side by side instead of one long row.. just my 2 cents from 15 yrs as grapegrower/winery.


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## krafty_kraut (Mar 26, 2013)

Good idea, I'll definitely do that.

I have whole rows planned of one variety now instead of breaking up the plants. I will look now to make sure they're in blocks for the sulfur sensitive vs immune (sort of) varieties.

I'll have 14 rows of 20 vines and I'll put the sulpher sensitive varities together to sequester them (kind of) from the hardier varities. Is that what you mean?


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## krafty_kraut (Mar 26, 2013)

Here is my line-up:

20 Marquette sulphur sensitivity 1
20 Marquette 1
20 NY76 Aromella 0
20 NY76 Aromella 0
20 NT95 Arandell 2
20 LaCrescent 0
20 Petite Pearl ?
20 Frontenac 1
20 Frontenac Blanc 1
20 Frontenac Gris 1
20 Traminette 0
20 Brianna 1
20 Noiret 0
20 St Vincent 0


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