# Crushing vs Pressing



## Old Philosopher (Sep 13, 2014)

This is a bonehead question for someone who's been making fruit wines for 4 years, but this is only my 2nd attempt at grape wine.

What is the difference between crushing, and pressing?

I've read a lot that says "crush white grapes before pressing"

I'm confused.......


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## Julie (Sep 13, 2014)

Crushing is breaking open the grapes and pressing is extracting the juice


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 13, 2014)

Julie said:


> Crushing is breaking open the grapes and pressing is extracting the juice



What's confusing me is why this can't all be done in one operation, during pressing? I mean, *squish* *pop* *squish more* = juice.


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## ibglowin (Sep 13, 2014)

These days most crushers are also de-stemmers. They remove the stems and slightly crush open the grapes. You would never want to press whole grape clusters with stems in a press as the stems would be crushed as well and ruin the wine. You only want the fruit pressed, not the stems.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 13, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> These days most crushers are also de-stemmers. They remove the stems and slightly crush open the grapes. You would never want to press whole grape clusters with stems in a press as the stems would be crushed as well and ruin the wine. You only want the fruit pressed, not the stems.


I just spent over an hour reading more about SO2, stem tanins, et al than I ever wanted to know. Some people even say a few small stems aid in pressing to keep the cake broken up. 
Being a simple guy with no money, I like the one guy's suggestion of crushing the grapes with a 2x4 in a bucket. Hahaha!
I'll press 'em in my apple press.


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## sholomy (Sep 13, 2014)

Old Philosopher said:


> What's confusing me is why this can't all be done in one operation, during pressing? I mean, *squish* *pop* *squish more* = juice.



u totally can crush and press at the same time but thats not how u make red wine. the color and depth of red wine comes from the skins and sometimes even stems and leaves too! the longer the wine sits after the crush before the press - its called a must in that state- the deeper the color and the complexity of the wine. even with white wines many winemakers will crush and then press 8 to 24 hours later for the added complexity. but if a light fruity white or rose is your goal then surely you can crush and press at the same time! I hope this helps for me the best resource was and is a book called from vines to wines by jeff cox.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 13, 2014)

Contrary to others said above, whole cluster pressing is a common practice with high end white wines, such as Chardonnay. 

It takes longer and is inefficient as you can't put nearly as many grapes in the press as you could of if they were crushed and destemmed first. But, the clusters that go through the stemmer-crusher before being pressed are more likely to be damaged and to show stemmy character. 

Whole cluster pressing has been shown to press out juice that’s less bitter and astringent. There’s less risk of oxidation (most winemakers use an enclosed tank-style press for their whites) and also greater clarity, which may mean less processing down the road.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 14, 2014)

Runningwolf said:


> Contrary to others said above, whole cluster pressing is a common practice with high end white wines, such as Chardonnay.
> 
> It takes longer and is inefficient as you can't put nearly as many grapes in the press as you could of if they were crushed and destemmed first. But, the clusters that go through the stemmer-crusher before being pressed are more likely to be damaged and to show stemmy character.
> 
> Whole cluster pressing has been shown to press out juice that’s less bitter and astringent. There’s less risk of oxidation (most winemakers use an enclosed tank-style press for their whites) and also greater clarity, which may mean less processing down the road.


Now, I just read elsewhere (not here) that whole cluster pressing could extract more tanins from the stems, imparting a "stemmy" taste to the final product. 
I know the Chardonnay process, but then I hear that other white wines suffer from the same handling. Not sure why, unless it has to do with the nature of the vine stock in the Chardonnay District. 
I've also read about "cold soaking" of the clusters before crushing. I got a headache after all the chemistry lessons. 
I know how my press and bags perform, so I guess I'm better off mashing the grapes (gently) before pressing.
I'm going to be working with a very small batch (15-30 pounds of grapes), so even doing it by hand is not prohibitive. But I'd also like the cleanest must possible from the start.


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## WineQuest (Sep 14, 2014)

Old Philosopher said:


> This is a bonehead question for someone who's been making fruit wines for 4 years, but this is only my 2nd attempt at grape wine.
> 
> What is the difference between crushing, and pressing?
> 
> ...



Crushing is a horrible term. If I had my way I would ban the term crushing and the use of SG from all winemaking communications.

As a few have stated above, the term crushing is basically popping the berries. 

For white wine this aids in getting all the juice out of the fruit. Since pressing white wine happens before fermentation the individual juice cells like to stay in tact making the juice tough to get out and having the berries' skins as an additional barrier just makes it that much more difficult so crushing before pressing aids in getting a better juice yield. Also, as stated above, many winemakers omit this step with their white wines for quality reasons. Most winemakers that do whole cluster press also leave the stems to allow channels for the juice to escape. Whole cluster pressing is wildly inefficient for yield unless you have a rotating horizontal bladder press that can press, release, stir, press, release, stir over and over.

For red wines the breaking of the skins lets the yeast have unrestricted access to the good stuff inside and aids in extracting the good stuff from the skins.


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## Turock (Sep 14, 2014)

What kind of grapes are you working with? A white grape like Niagara can either be fermented on the pulp and skins or given a dose of pectic enzyme and then pressed to use the juice only. However, you will get different results. The pressed juice will not have as much fruity flavor as fermenting on skins and pulp. So it sort of depends what you're working with and what your goal is. Pressing only the juice on a red grape and not using the skins in the ferment might actually yield a white wine--not a red!! So tell us what grape you're using.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 14, 2014)

Turock said:


> What kind of grapes are you working with? A white grape like Niagara can either be fermented on the pulp and skins or given a dose of pectic enzyme and then pressed to use the juice only. However, you will get different results. The pressed juice will not have as much fruity flavor as fermenting on skins and pulp. So it sort of depends what you're working with and what your goal is. Pressing only the juice on a red grape and not using the skins in the ferment might actually yield a white wine--not a red!! So tell us what grape you're using.


I have two varieties of white grapes. 2 vines of one, and 1 of the other. I have lost the records on what varieties they are, but they are late season, mid-sized seeded grapes. The early frost got the vegetation over the past 3 nights, so I'm picking starting today. The grapes themselves did not freeze. 
The one vine is a light producer, so I'm not segregating the grapes. 

FWIW, I have a 2 gal batch of red wine in the primary right now. Again, the grapes were given to me, and I have not identified the variety. Being that I've primarily made apple, plum, apricot, and strawberry wines, I apparently did just about everything wrong with these red grapes. I crushed them, put them in a straining bag, poured about a gal of boiling water over them with 50ppm SO2. After 24 hrs, I added enzyme and let it sit for another 24 hrs. Then I hung the bag to drain for 24 hours, and topped the juice off slightly to 2 gallons. SG was 1.032, so I raised it to 1.095, added Premier Curvee yeast, and the SG has dropped to 1.050 in 5 days. The primary is in a bucket, so I probably got way too much O2 in it. 
I'll test the pH and acid levels when I rack to the secondary carboy, although I never worry about that with my fruit wines.


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## Turock (Sep 14, 2014)

Yeah--well, it's kind of tough not knowing variety. But maybe I can give you a few clues as to how to approach things.

Typically, on red wines you crush and ferment on the skins. You don't use pectic enzyme on those grapes that have a tiny pulp on them and are thin skinned. But if the have a big pulp on them, like a concord grape does, then you would use pectic enzyme. You can bag any fruit--even grapes. But you should just toss the bag into the fermentor with the juice. Segregating the pulp and the skin is not the best way to do it unless it would be for stylistic purposes. You should have a warm ferment of 78-80 degrees to get a very good red wine, and a cooler ferment to get a rose'.

On whites--same thing applies. If it's a big pulpy grape such as a Niagara then you'd use pectic enzyme. If not, then don't use it because it can make the mash too slimy. Pressing white grapes and using the juice only is prefered as far as color preservation goes. There are some white grapes that develop brownness on their skins when ripe. You would not want to ferment those on the skins because they will leave the brown color in the wine.

And the difference between pressing and using juice only and fermenting on the pulp and skins can give a stylistic difference to the resulting wine. Such is the case with Niagara grapes. Some of us really like that intense fruitiness of the Niagara--what some people call a "foxy" flavor. The only way to preserve that flavor is fermenting on the pulp and skins. To reduce the fruitiness, you press and use the juice only. 

Soooooo------as you can see---there's no right or wrong or totally easy answer to the question you posed. It depends on what you're working with--depends on your stylistic preference.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 14, 2014)

Turock said:


> Yeah--well, it's kind of tough not knowing variety. But maybe I can give you a few clues as to how to approach things.
> 
> Typically, on red wines you crush and ferment on the skins. You don't use pectic enzyme on those grapes that have a tiny pulp on them and are thin skinned. But if the have a big pulp on them, like a concord grape does, then you would use pectic enzyme. You can bag any fruit--even grapes. But you should just toss the bag into the fermentor with the juice. Segregating the pulp and the skin is not the best way to do it unless it would be for stylistic purposes. You should have a warm ferment of 78-80 degrees to get a very good red wine, and a cooler ferment to get a rose'.
> 
> ...


That's helpful, and encouraging. 
I'm not a perfectionist where wine is concerned. Nothing I've made (except one 500ml bottle of crabapple) has survived as long as a year.  So I don't expect anyone to get poisoned by uncorking my wine in 2030. 

As far as the variety of my grapes goes, I've had little luck identifying them on-line, so a description is probably a waste of time. But...they are a white seed grape that thrives in Zone 4 with only 6-8 hrs of full sun daily. The clusters are branched, meaning the stem branches with twin clusters on each branch. They are mostly about dime-sized. They ripen about mid-September normally, but a killing frost moved my harvest up this year.

So from what I hear from your post, since some of these grapes have not come to full maturity, and sugar/flavor is probably lacking, I should consider fermenting with the skins on to get as much "grape flavor" as possible?


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## Turock (Sep 14, 2014)

You mean you didn't taste them? How DO they taste? Lots of acid and little flavor? Or sweet with a little acid bite on them. Are they very flavorful or low on flavor? If they taste sweet and not tart, then they are probably ready to harvest. This where a refractometer can come in very handy.

If they have a big acid bite on them, then aren't very ripe. Where do you live? Can you leave them on the vine longer if they're not ripe enough?

Is the pulp real tiny on them and soft? If so, don't use pectic enzyme. Not knowing variety, it's kind of tough. How have you fermented them in the past? Whole berry or only juice and what was the result?


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 14, 2014)

Turock said:


> You mean you didn't taste them? How DO they taste? Lots of acid and little flavor? Or sweet with a little acid bite on them. Are they very flavorful or low on flavor? If they taste sweet and not tart, then they are probably ready to harvest. This where a refractometer can come in very handy.
> 
> If they have a big acid bite on them, then aren't very ripe. Where do you live? Can you leave them on the vine longer if they're not ripe enough?
> 
> Is the pulp real tiny on them and soft? If so, don't use pectic enzyme. Not knowing variety, it's kind of tough. How have you fermented them in the past? Whole berry or only juice and what was the result?


Oh, yeah, I tasted several. That's how I know some are under ripe. Very few, though. 
If I had to describe how the skins behave, I'd call 'em "slip skin" grapes, but I don't know the true definition. 
The majority of them (95%?) have a firm, sweet pulp. The smaller fruit that doesn't have the sugars fully developed have a 'tart' taste, similar to a really dry wine. 
I did a batch last year when the harvest wasn't nearly as good. I crushed and drained (not pressed) and did a gallon batch from straight juice (no dilution). My friends didn't spit it out, and it got my wife's stamp of approval...and she's a wino.  
I went ahead and harvested them all today (25#), because here in NW Montana once the foliage is killed by the frost, not much keeps maturing.


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## Turock (Sep 15, 2014)

I got you now. That description was very helpful. Because the pulp is firm, I would guess that it DOES need the pectic enzyme. After that, it's your choice if you think you can ferment on the pulp and skins or press them and just use the juice. If you really like the flavor of this grape, then you might try to ferment on the skins and pulp because that will intensify the flavor.

People tell us that our Niagara tastes like no other that they ever had. And that's because most wineries and home winemakers press and only use the juice, while we ferment on the entire grape. Good luck--hope this helps you make a decision.

By the way---I would only use the ripe grapes--not the unripe tart ones.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 15, 2014)

I'm sort of ambivalent about the flavor of the grapes. It's not like they're sweet table grapes. <duh> It's not like I'm a connoisseur, and I have nothing to compare. 
I've heard that in the case of grapes, I might want to ferment the primary under an air lock in a carboy. I'm used to bucket primaries with a straining bag. The prospect of putting the whole grapes in a carboy, and then cleaning it out sounds like a royal pain. Any thoughts on the bucket primary?
It's also sounding like I don't want to add any water to the must. Last time I was working with only about a gallon, so my secondary was a gallon jug. I'm sure I'm not getting enough straight juice to fill a 5 gal carboy. From everything I've now read about grapes, O2 is my biggest enemy.


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## JohnT (Sep 15, 2014)

Old Philosopher said:


> Now, I just read elsewhere (not here) that whole cluster pressing could extract more tanins from the stems, imparting a "stemmy" taste to the final product.
> I know the Chardonnay process, but then I hear that other white wines suffer from the same handling. Not sure why, unless it has to do with the nature of the vine stock in the Chardonnay District.
> I've also read about "cold soaking" of the clusters before crushing. I got a headache after all the chemistry lessons.
> I know how my press and bags perform, so I guess I'm better off mashing the grapes (gently) before pressing.
> I'm going to be working with a very small batch (15-30 pounds of grapes), so even doing it by hand is not prohibitive. But I'd also like the cleanest must possible from the start.


 

My experience has turned me into a HUGH fan of whole cluster pressing on white wines. I have found that the resulting wine is far less tannic and far softer then the usual crush/press. If anything, I have found that the tannins were greatly reduced. I have to say that whole cluster pressing makes a huge difference!


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 15, 2014)

JohnT said:


> My experience has turned me into a HUGH fan of whole cluster pressing on white wines. I have found that the resulting wine is far less tannic and far softer then the usual crush/press. If anything, I have found that the tannins were greatly reduced. I have to say that whole cluster pressing makes a huge difference!


So do you just work with pressing smaller batches at a time, to get the maximum juice? It sounds like whole cluster pressing leaves a lot of grapes whole without juicing them.


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## JohnT (Sep 15, 2014)

Old Philosopher said:


> So do you just work with pressing smaller batches at a time, to get the maximum juice? It sounds like whole cluster pressing leaves a lot of grapes whole without juicing them.


 
I press rather large batches, under limited pressure. I have found that there is a bit less in the way of yield, but IMHO it is totally worth it!


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 15, 2014)

I guess I'm just dense.
Somebody spell it out for me...anybody.
One minute we're talking about fermenting the grapes, skins and all.
Then we're talking about whole-cluster pressing. Are we just using the juice then?
Trying to follow this, I press whole clusters. I'm left with a mash of burst grapes and stems. I know I can't ferment that with the stems in, so how do I get to the grapes in the must without the stem pieces?
Or are we talking about two separate methods here?
1) Press whole clusters and only use the juice.
2) Don't press anything, just de-stem, pop the grapes ("crush") and ferment the mashed grapes in their own juice.

Hope someone can see the source of my confusion.


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## JohnT (Sep 15, 2014)

Perhaps this will help. 

When we say "crush" we are talking about sending the grapes through a crusher / destemmer. This machine lightly crushes the grapes and removes the stems. This must is usually fermented (skins and all) for red wines. 

For white wines, you have several options.. 

1) run the grapes through the crusher/destemmer and ferment that. 
2) run the grapes through the crusher/destemmer and then load that into your press, extracting only the juice and fermenting that. 
3) skip the crusher/destemmer and simply load whole clusters into your press and extract the juice and then ferment it. 


It really is a matter of personal preference.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 15, 2014)

It would seem that there are as many techniques as there are people doing it.
I've come to the conclusion that wine from grapes runs the gamete from lobbing grenades (mashed grapes, few pounds of sugar, wait until it stops bubbling) to rocket science (inert gases, SO2 levels, etc.) 
I've also come to the conclusion that I am somewhere in the "Kentucky windage" category.  If I don't hit the mark this year, I'll raise my sights and try again next year.

Here's my game plan:


 I've de-stemmed the 25 pounds by hand
 I'm going to 'crush' 'em (again by hand)
 Add some enzyme and SO2 to the bucket, wait 24 hours
 Press the whole mess to extract as much juice as possible
 Put everything (skins& juice) back in the primary bucket, raise the SG, and toss the yeast. Probably use EC-1118 since my temperatures fluctuate so much.
 Cross fingers


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## JohnT (Sep 16, 2014)

Old Philosopher said:


> It would seem that there are as many techniques as there are people doing it.
> I've come to the conclusion that wine from grapes runs the gamete from lobbing grenades (mashed grapes, few pounds of sugar, wait until it stops bubbling) to rocket science (inert gases, SO2 levels, etc.)
> I've also come to the conclusion that I am somewhere in the "Kentucky windage" category.  If I don't hit the mark this year, I'll raise my sights and try again next year.
> 
> ...


 
on point 5 (above) why would you put the skins back into the primary bucket? I would either toss the skins or ferment without pressing them.


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## Turock (Sep 16, 2014)

Don't add pectic enzyme and SO2 together as the SO2 will inactivate the enzyme. Pitch the SO2 first and wait at least 12 hrs. Then pitch the enzyme and wait another 12 hrs. Then set brix, take PH readings and adjust as needed, THEN pitch the yeast.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 16, 2014)

If you want to ferment on the skins, there is no need to press until you are ready to go to secondary.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 16, 2014)

JohnT said:


> on point 5 (above) why would you put the skins back into the primary bucket? I would either toss the skins or ferment without pressing them.





Boatboy24 said:


> If you want to ferment on the skins, there is no need to press until you are ready to go to secondary.



Okay. That sounded dumb, even to me. 
Since these are 'white' grapes, is there even a purpose in pressing after fermentation?

And speaking of that... The only other time I did these grapes, I crushed and hung them like I was making jelly, and fermented just the juice.
Right now I have about 3 gal of crushed grapes sitting in their own juice in a 5 gal bucket. I'm assuming at some point, it won't look like a witch's brew suitable only for St. Patty's Day. I mean, red wine gets its color from the skins. Now I have green juice.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 16, 2014)

Turock said:


> Don't add pectic enzyme and SO2 together as the *SO2 will inactivate the enzyme*. Pitch the SO2 first and wait at least 12 hrs. Then pitch the enzyme and wait another 12 hrs. Then set brix, take PH readings and adjust as needed, THEN pitch the yeast.


Didn't know that! Oops. I'll add some more enzymes today, and adjust everything tomorrow. Thanks.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 16, 2014)

Old Philosopher said:


> Okay. That sounded dumb, even to me.
> Since these are 'white' grapes, is there even a purpose in pressing after fermentation?
> 
> And speaking of that... The only other time I did these grapes, I crushed and hung them like I was making jelly, and fermented just the juice.
> Right now I have about 3 gal of crushed grapes sitting in their own juice in a 5 gal bucket. I'm assuming at some point, it won't look like a witch's brew suitable only for St. Patty's Day. I mean, red wine gets its color from the skins. Now I have green juice.



With a white, crush and press prior to fermentation - don't ferment on the skins.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 16, 2014)

Turock said:


> Yeah--well, it's kind of tough not knowing variety. But maybe I can give you a few clues as to how to approach things.
> 
> Typically, on red wines you crush and ferment on the skins. You don't use pectic enzyme on those grapes that have a tiny pulp on them and are thin skinned. But if the have a big pulp on them, like a concord grape does, then you would use pectic enzyme. You can bag any fruit--even grapes. But you should just toss the bag into the fermentor with the juice. Segregating the pulp and the skin is not the best way to do it unless it would be for stylistic purposes. You should have a warm ferment of 78-80 degrees to get a very good red wine, and a cooler ferment to get a rose'.
> 
> ...





Boatboy24 said:


> With a white, crush and press prior to fermentation - don't ferment on the skins.


And you guys wonder why I'm unsure what I want to do. 

Since I've never, in 4 years, fermented on the pulp (grapes, or any other fruit), I'll probably go with the straight juice again.

Thanks for all the advice.


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## Turock (Sep 17, 2014)

As I said---with some grapes, like Niagara, you can get more flavor from fermenting on the whole grape skins and all. Niagara is a green grape--well, yellow if you let them fully ripen, but we don't like them that way because the good flavor is gone by then---so with a green grape, the mash will look green in color. But by the time you rack it from the primary, it looks like any other white. 

Just as an experiment--you could ferment on the whole fruit, skins and all. You might like the style of wine that that produces. If the skins are not brown--you COULD ferment on the skins without causing other problems.

Deciding whether or not to ferment on the skins is a style question. This is why you need to know the characteristics of the grape you're using and how it responds to different techniques.


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## Turock (Sep 17, 2014)

.....and the actual pulp of the grape adds lots of flavor too, that you don't get by just pressing for the juice.


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## Old Philosopher (Sep 17, 2014)

Turock said:


> .....
> 
> Deciding whether or not to ferment on the skins is a style question. This is why you need to know the characteristics of the grape you're using and how it responds to different techniques.


That's why I'll play it safe, and just use the juice, doing what I know best.
I have NO plums this year, and only 50% of my usual apple yield. Bad year. I don't want to 'experiment' this year with the only fruit I have.


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