# “We are moving Alabama with the times," gov says after signing wine delivery bill... :D



## jswordy (May 17, 2021)

Alabamians will soon be able to have a bottle of pinot noir or chardonnay delivered in the mail after Gov. Kay Ivey on Thursday signed wine shipment legislation into law.

Only wine producers could do shipments and not retailers. People could do wine-of-the-month clubs only if the wine is shipped from the producer.









Cheers! Alabama governor signs limited wine delivery bill


MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) — Alabamians will soon be able to have a bottle of pinot noir or chardonnay delivered in the mail after Gov. Kay Ivey on Thursday signed wine shipment legislation into law. State lawmakers approved the bill this session after years of debate.




apnews.com


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## Boatboy24 (May 17, 2021)

Welcome to the world!


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## Johnd (May 17, 2021)

We’re still in the Stone Age in LA, there’s a bill in the legislature to fix it, but it’s not looking good. Currently, if you have a distributor in the state, you can’t sell directly to the consumer, thanks to the Big Alcohol lobbyists.....


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## heatherd (May 17, 2021)

You've passed up MD. I still have to get a friend pick up my wine in VA, acting as a wine mule.


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## G259 (May 17, 2021)

Tell them that they will get more tax money if it can be bought in the state, dollars to doughnuts (pun intended), they will change their minds! 
"I get more money to play with?"


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## winemaker81 (May 18, 2021)

North Carolina is surprising modern in this respect, although a lot has been relatively recent. I used to receive shipments from NY wineries labeled "machine parts". Seriously, this happened. I can't remember exactly when the law changed on that.

The "blue laws" have modernized a lot, as recently as 2017. In the mid-90's (IIRC) wine & beer sales on Sunday opened up, it was something like 1PM to 6PM. Over the years the law has shifted positively -- As of the 2017 "brunch bill", alcohol can be sold as early as 10AM on Sundays. If I shop at Costco Sunday morning, I can buy!!!

We have 1 dry county left, although 1 municipality there allows alcohol sales; the remainder of the county is dry.

OTOH, we still have the ABC system, although that's gotten a lot better. It used to be the choice for tequila was 4 or 5 brands. About 8 years ago I needed more tequila (like it, but don't drink a lot, a bottle can last years) and realized there were about 40 brands of tequila in that section. A number of the older stores have moved as the old locations lacked space. So things are getting better.


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## jswordy (May 18, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> North Carolina is surprising modern in this respect, although a lot has been relatively recent. I used to receive shipments from NY wineries labeled "machine parts". Seriously, this happened. I can't remember exactly when the law changed on that.
> 
> The "blue laws" have modernized a lot, as recently as 2017. In the mid-90's (IIRC) wine & beer sales on Sunday opened up, it was something like 1PM to 6PM. Over the years the law has shifted positively -- As of the 2017 "brunch bill", alcohol can be sold as early as 10AM on Sundays. If I shop at Costco Sunday morning, I can buy!!!
> 
> ...



I absolutely love the "foodie" atmosphere of North Carolina. The state also gets points from me because it promotes its own wines and other agricultural products heavily. On the other hand, I have been there enough to know the dual political pulls on the state, each heading off in opposite directions. Smetimes they make for interesting outcomes.

I have lived in VA and TN under blue laws, before they finally were removed, so I know what you are saying. A former Illinoisan, I was like, "What? You say I can't buy alcohol except at certain times? What the heck is that about?" 

Things can get very complex when it comes to alcohol and the Southland.

I live in TN and work in AL now. There are 24 dry counties in Alabama (which also has ABC stores in wet counties but allows private stores, too). The "big city" is in AL, so I need to be very careful about crossing state lines with too much beer, wine or liquor. Transporting more than 5 gallons of any of those into AL is a felony (1-6 years in prison). But the other direction is the rub.

Coming from the Alabama "big city" into Tennessee, the laws are worse. TN allows ZERO transport into the state. Amounts of less than three gallons of alcoholic beverage is a misdemeanor punishable by a $500 fine. More than three gallons is a felony.

There are 9 dry, 10 wet, and 76 moist counties in TN's 95 counties. A moist county is where sales of alcohol are permitted in certain jurisdictions. Some permit stores, some liquor by the drink, and some both. My county permits both.

Southern legislatures are controlled by money from the big liquor concerns, for sure. For example, in TN, until recently you could not buy wine except at a liquor store. And liquor store owners can still only own ONE store. Goofy laws, if you ask me. But just a part of it.


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## winemaker81 (May 18, 2021)

jswordy said:


> I absolutely love the "foodie" atmosphere of North Carolina. The state also gets points from me because it promotes its own wines and other agricultural products heavily. On the other hand, I have been there enough to know the dual political pulls on the state, each heading off in opposite directions. Smetimes they make for interesting outcomes.


We moved to Raleigh in '93, and at that time there was *1* Greek restaurant in all of the Raleigh/Durham metro area, which had a total population of over 500,000. There were, at most, a handful of independent pizza shops (most were chain stores), and forget finding an ethnic market. OTOH, there were quite a few Mexican restaurants, of low to medium quality and zero authenticity.

We came from Utica/Rome, NY, and in comparison, in Rome there was 2 chain pizza shops and well over a dozen independent pizza shops. The population was mostly Italian and Polish extraction, so good markets were available. We get fresh pierogi and kielbasa when visiting. Moving to Raleigh was a culture shock.

28 years later? Italian, Polish, Indian, Mediterranean markets abound, as do restaurants. It's totally different.

NC promotes its winery trade. When I moved here, there were a couple dozen wineries. Now? There's 8 within 30 miles of Raleigh, and Raleigh is far from being prime winery country. The NC Wine site indicates there are 119 total in NC.









North Carolina Winery Map - Search NC Wineries | NCWine.org


Search our map of North Carolina wineries and vineyards by city, region, winery tours, popular amenities and designated wine grape growing regions.




www.ncwine.org





Note that for Vinifera, the northwest part of the state around Winston-Salem is the place to go. In the southeast, Muscadine and Scuppernong reign, although the wineries I've visited buy Vinifera and hybrids from elsewhere and market them. In between, French-American hybrids grow well.

In my area, hybrids will now grow well, it's all Muscadine & Scuppernong. If I moved 30 miles northwest I could grow hybrids, and another 30 miles beyond that, Vinifera. I don't care for most of the native grape wines, so growing is not in my future. The wines I've had are all well made; they just are not my taste.

In comparison to the conditions in TN and AL, I am happy with NC!


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## Swedeman (May 18, 2021)

jswordy said:


> Transporting more than 5 gallons of any of those into AL is a felony (1-6 years in prison)


Seriously?


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## G259 (May 18, 2021)

. . . they might have to prove you were selling it, although maybe not though.


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## winemaker81 (May 19, 2021)

G259 said:


> . . . they might have to prove you were selling it, although maybe not though.


Nope, it appears that in TN, transportation of more than 5 gallons of wine is unlawful.

§ 57-3-102. Traffic in intoxicating liquor permitted by local option.

(b) It shall be lawful for an individual to transport up to five gallons (5 gals.) of alcoholic beverages or wine for personal or household use of the individual in counties or municipalities that have not permitted the sale of alcoholic beverages or wine by local option elections as provided in this chapter and amounts in excess of five gallons (5 gals.) if accompanied by a receipt or other documentation demonstrating legal purchase or transport from an entity licensed under § 57-3-203, § 57-3-204, § 57-3-207 or § 57-3-218.
This is from Justia, a legal information retrieval site. It may not be 100% up to date, but was law in the recent past.

Tennessee Code § 57-3-102 (2019) - Traffic in intoxicating liquor permitted by local option. :: 2019 Tennessee Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia 

In reading through various articles, the legislators are restricting alcohol access to protect the citizens.  The real issue appears to be taxation ...


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## Swedeman (May 19, 2021)

1-6 years here in Sweden would mean that you have done some sort of violent crime like armed robbery, but it has to be serious/aggravated one. Not sure of the correct English term here: "serious", "aggravated", "capital", "gross" or...


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## winemaker81 (May 19, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> 1-6 years here in Sweden would mean that you have done some sort of violent crime like armed robbery, but it has to be serious/aggravated one. Not sure of the correct English term here: "serious", "aggravated", "capital", "gross" or...


If I understand correctly, serious and aggravated are correct terms. In the USA, "capital" indicate the possibility of the death penalty, which applies only if the victim dies from the assault. "Gross" applies to misdemeanors (lesser crimes) and indicates the crime is on the higher end of the scale. This may vary in some jurisdictions, but overall should be correct.


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## jswordy (May 19, 2021)

Again, as far as importing alcohol, in Alabama, you cannot bring more than 5 gallons into the state from elsewhere. In Tennessee, you cannot bring ANY into the state from elsewhere. Penalties are in my post above.


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## jswordy (May 19, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> We moved to Raleigh in '93, and at that time there was *1* Greek restaurant in all of the Raleigh/Durham metro area, which had a total population of over 500,000. There were, at most, a handful of independent pizza shops (most were chain stores), and forget finding an ethnic market. OTOH, there were quite a few Mexican restaurants, of low to medium quality and zero authenticity.
> 
> We came from Utica/Rome, NY, and in comparison, in Rome there was 2 chain pizza shops and well over a dozen independent pizza shops. The population was mostly Italian and Polish extraction, so good markets were available. We get fresh pierogi and kielbasa when visiting. Moving to Raleigh was a culture shock.
> 
> ...



Yeah, moving here from ethnically diverse Illinois has been a hardship when it comes to restaurants. All chains, all the time here. They think it is something special when a new chain eatery opens. SMH. Very rare to see a local place, and the overall range is limited. If I want something original, it pretty much has to come from my own kitchen.

When we visit lil ol Black Mountain and see the cornucopia at the local Ingle's, it's amazing. I have an Ingle's Advantage card in my wallet right now. Thing about NC is how it is so distinctly pulled in two very different directions. Interesting state.

It's not all bad in TN for me, though. I live 30 miles from Jack Daniel, share the aquifer, and have a dozen other distilleries and who knows how many breweries within 25 miles of home that have grown up in the last 30 years. Very low cost of living. Just draconian attitudes and politics for my tastes. It was a solid centrist state when we moved here 31 years ago. No more. And it's not much of a wine area, unless it's muscadine. So I am totally cut off from non-native grapes.


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## Swedeman (May 19, 2021)

Thanks Bryan! Then I got it correctly, I still can't understand how transporting more than 5 gallons into AL could be a felony and not a misdemeanor? 

FWIW lifetime in Sweden means 16 years in prison on an average but that has changed now so lifetime can't be less than 18 years.


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## jswordy (May 19, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> 1-6 years here in Sweden would mean that you have done some sort of violent crime like armed robbery, but it has to be serious/aggravated one. Not sure of the correct English term here: "serious", "aggravated", "capital", "gross" or...



You can get 6 years in Tennessee for possession of ONE marijuana plant. I looked that up after I found one that one of my neighbors had planted one in my pasture.


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## winemaker81 (May 19, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> I still can't understand how transporting more than 5 gallons into AL could be a felony and not a misdemeanor?


Some laws in the USA can be extremely bizarre. In this case, the law probably had 2 driving forces. TN is in the middle of the Bible Belt. a large area of the SE USA that historically had a large influence from conservative Christian sects that generally frowned on alcohol consumption. The second driver is taxes -- all governments want their tax revenue and many come down hard on those that evade it. Alcohol is the target of both, so a tremendously out-of-whack law is on the books.

NC has moved far from that mindset, farther than most of the neighboring states. But our government recognizes that alcohol is *big *business. Even small wineries produce tourism, so the state collects taxes not only on the wine sold, but on food, lodging, and other entertainment.

About 13 years ago the laws were changed regarding small breweries. Brewpubs sprang up -- there are probably a dozen brewpubs within 20 miles of my home. I just did a search and found 4 I did not know about.

Aviator, in Fuquay-Varina NC, has a taproom at the brewery, and in town a restaurant, 2 pubs, and a bottle store. In 13 years it went from a microbrewery housed in an airplane hanger (hence the name) into a multi-million dollar business.

Yup, it's big business.


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## jswordy (May 19, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Some laws in the USA can be extremely bizarre. In this case, the law probably had 2 driving forces. TN is in the middle of the Bible Belt. a large area of the SE USA that historically had a large influence from conservative Christian sects that generally frowned on alcohol consumption. The second driver is taxes -- all governments want their tax revenue and many come down hard on those that evade it. Alcohol is the target of both, so a tremendously out-of-whack law is on the books.
> 
> NC has moved far from that mindset, farther than most of the neighboring states. But our government recognizes that alcohol is *big *business. Even small wineries produce tourism, so the state collects taxes not only on the wine sold, but on food, lodging, and other entertainment.
> 
> ...



In Tennessee, where I live, it is taxes and the influence of the big distillery and liquor lobby that keeps importation of any amount illegal. TN has a hidden excise tax on booze paid by the bottler. Anything from out of state not only negates state sales tax, but also that hidden excise tax. In Alabama, where I work, it is more a blend of religion, the liquor lobby and taxes that sets the five-gallon importation limit. But Huntsville, AL, the town I work in, has a plethora of brewery taprooms, so many I can't even count them all anymore. There are lots of liquor stores. Booze is just expensive after all the hidden and sales taxes on it, as it basically is in all Southern states. That's an incentive for people to bootleg it in, and so it is illegal.

The South is coming along on alcohol, but very slowly compared to Northern states. Illinois is literally wide open. You can buy hard liquor at groceries and convenience stores there. I don't see that coming here anytime real soon.


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## Boatboy24 (May 19, 2021)

jswordy said:


> You can get 6 years in Tennessee for possession of ONE marijuana plant. I looked that up after I found one that one of my neighbors had planted one in my pasture.



"Not mine, officer. My neighbor must've put it there."


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## ibglowin (May 19, 2021)

Meanwhile out in the Southwest as of 6/29/21 ...........

*"Residents of New Mexico 21 and older may cultivate up to six (6) mature cannabis plants and six (6) immature cannabis plants per person; provided that despite a household having multiple residents, no more than twelve (12) mature cannabis plants may be present in one household."*




jswordy said:


> You can get 6 years in Tennessee for possession of ONE marijuana plant. I looked that up after I found one that one of my neighbors had planted one in my pasture.


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## ibglowin (May 19, 2021)

And then..........

_"A Permittee may ship:
(1) not more than two nine-liter cases of wine *monthly to a New Mexico resident* who is twenty-one years of age or older for the recipient's personal consumption or use, but not for resale."_


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## Darrell Hawley (May 20, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> "Not mine, officer. My neighbor must've put it there."


Good luck with that story.


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## jswordy (May 20, 2021)

ibglowin said:


> And then..........
> 
> _"A Permittee may ship:
> (1) not more than two nine-liter cases of wine *monthly to a New Mexico resident* who is twenty-one years of age or older for the recipient's personal consumption or use, but not for resale."_



It is one case per month, max of three per year from a single vendor, in TN.


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## jswordy (May 20, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> "Not mine, officer. My neighbor must've put it there."



That's why it was immediately bush-hogged under when I saw it while mowing pasture. That really pissed me off, that the neighbor would put that on me. Fortunately, foreclosure took care of that problem.


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## hounddawg (May 21, 2021)

jswordy said:


> Alabamians will soon be able to have a bottle of pinot noir or chardonnay delivered in the mail after Gov. Kay Ivey on Thursday signed wine shipment legislation into law.
> 
> Only wine producers could do shipments and not retailers. People could do wine-of-the-month clubs only if the wine is shipped from the producer.
> 
> ...


lucky cods, Arkansas is as strict as they come,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (May 21, 2021)

jswordy said:


> That's why it was immediately bush-hogged under when I saw it while mowing pasture. That really pissed me off, that the neighbor would put that on me. Fortunately, foreclosure took care of that problem.


 you do know what kind of bird don't fly don't you,,,, a JAIL BIRD
Dawg


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## olusteebus (May 21, 2021)

Well, since we are talking about stupid morality laws, Here is one that used to be in effect in Alabama. I don't know if it still is. If you were in a club and you wanted to move to another table, you were required by law to have a waiter/waitress move your drink. You could not move it yourself. I don't know why but that is the way it was!


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## hounddawg (May 21, 2021)

olusteebus said:


> Well, since we are talking about stupid morality laws, Here is one that used to be in effect in Alabama. I don't know if it still is. If you were in a club and you wanted to move to another table, you were required by law to have a waiter/waitress move your drink. You could not move it yourself. I don't know why but that is the way it was!


in Arkansas most back up in the hills ,,watering holes.... beer comes in plastic cups or aluminum cans
Dawg,,, ,....


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## hounddawg (May 21, 2021)

glass/bottle is considered a deadly weapon, considered heck glass is deadly,,,,
Dawg


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## sour_grapes (May 21, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> glass/bottle is considered a deadly weapon, considered heck glass is deadly,,,,
> Dawg



Ahh, I see. I will admit that I needed your explanation; I was confused by the prior post.


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## Steve Wargo (May 21, 2021)

Reasonably Tax any alcohol or Weed and be done with it. Booze, beer and wine, and weed shouldn't carry large fines or jail sentences, and all ordinances banning it, or regulating it should be struck down. Now with that said, under the influence, laws (any kind) should stay in place. if you don't pay your taxes that's a different story. I drink wine, sometimes beer, maybe a taste of a hard liquor rarely. I don't begrudge those that take part in the other mentioned consumables it's their God-given right to do so. Ask Thomas Jefferseon.


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## hounddawg (May 22, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Ahh, I see. I will admit that I needed your explanation; I was confused by the prior post.


it is sad, and yet not near as bad as when i was younger, but back up in the Ozarks there is still plenty off shoot and stabs, the old rule of thumb was once you got shot then you got stabbed,,
you ever walk in a outta the way place and people are drinking from aluminum cans and plastic glasses, Leave,,, 
Dawg


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## wood1954 (May 22, 2021)

Always amazed at southern Bible belts that restrict alcohol yet their leader turned water into wine at a party, probably encouraged dancing as well. I was recently inTN and was disappointed going to an Italian restaurant and couldn’t get a glass of red wine, went to a Mexican restaurant looking forward to margaritas , nope no hard liquor served, thankfully I have no reason to ever go there again


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## Old Corker (May 22, 2021)

Three decades ago (wow, that’s hard to write) I lived/worked in Utah for a year. Package liquor, imported beer and wine was sold in state stores. Closed on Sundays and holidays. You could buy 3.2 Beer in convenience and other stores. It’s now sold everywhere under the name Bud Lite among others . You could get a mixed drink at a private club. I joined the Elks Lodge, Moose Lodge and something called the Paternal Order of the Eagles. Beautiful country but drinking was hard work. And I grew up in KY. Famous for making bourbon and being 90% dry.


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## bstnh1 (May 22, 2021)

olusteebus said:


> Well, since we are talking about stupid morality laws, Here is one that used to be in effect in Alabama. I don't know if it still is. If you were in a club and you wanted to move to another table, you were required by law to have a waiter/waitress move your drink. You could not move it yourself. I don't know why but that is the way it was!


Used to be that way in NH too. But somewhere along the line, it got dropped. We are now free to carry our own drinks from table to table.


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## JustJoe (May 22, 2021)

I don't worry about politicians and their silly rules - I make all of my own mine and beer. Just so we don't get some dimwit into office who wants to find a way to tax that.


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## hounddawg (May 23, 2021)

wood1954 said:


> Always amazed at southern Bible belts that restrict alcohol yet their leader turned water into wine at a party, probably encouraged dancing as well. I was recently inTN and was disappointed going to an Italian restaurant and couldn’t get a glass of red wine, went to a Mexican restaurant looking forward to margaritas , nope no hard liquor served, thankfully I have no reason to ever go there again


first,, Jesus was and is our spatial guide, where as man is the maker of our laws of the land, it has been about 5 years since going to the line to get alcohol went from about 50 miles one way, to 10 miles one way, yet it is still a felony to send or ship any potable alcohol in my county, 
Dawg


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## olusteebus (May 23, 2021)

I have heard that long ago, the only town in Alabama that you could get draft beer was Huntsville. The reason was because of the German poulation there. Remember, that is where so many Germans were brought there after WWII due to the space industry growing there. I can't imagine it being that many German scientist but they had an influence. I worked in Huntsville a good bit in the late 60's, early 70's and enjoyed draft beer then and no where else in Bama.


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## hounddawg (May 23, 2021)

olusteebus said:


> I have heard that long ago, the only town in Alabama that you could get draft beer was Huntsville. The reason was because of the German poulation there. Remember, that is where so many Germans were brought there after WWII due to the space industry growing there. I can't imagine it being that many German scientist but they had an influence. I worked in Huntsville a good bit in the late 60's, early 70's and enjoyed draft beer then and no where else in Bama.


um, now mind you,, i only heard this, COUGH, GRUNT, COUGH,,, their was not much need in bamy fur much draft beer, due to the excellent quality of their shine, their weed, and of course their wines, COUGH, or so i heard of a legend like that decades ago,,,  
Dawg


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## jswordy (May 24, 2021)

JustJoe said:


> I don't worry about politicians and their silly rules - I make all of my own mine and beer. Just so we don't get some dimwit into office who wants to find a way to tax that.



They sales tax your ingredients.


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## jswordy (May 24, 2021)

olusteebus said:


> I have heard that long ago, the only town in Alabama that you could get draft beer was Huntsville. The reason was because of the German poulation there. Remember, that is where so many Germans were brought there after WWII due to the space industry growing there. I can't imagine it being that many German scientist but they had an influence. I worked in Huntsville a good bit in the late 60's, early 70's and enjoyed draft beer then and no where else in Bama.



That's true. Huntsville was also a major market for Mr. Jack Daniel to carry the reverend's whiskey to sell, when he was apprenticing, and also his own later on. It was considered a lawless, rough and risky area back then. But Mr. Jack was selling booze there at about age 14, and delivering in a horse-drawn wagon.


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## jswordy (May 24, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> um, now mind you,, i only heard this, COUGH, GRUNT, COUGH,,, their was not much need in bamy fur much draft beer, due to the excellent quality of their shine, their weed, and of course their wines, COUGH, or so i heard of a legend like that decades ago,,,
> Dawg



The best moonshine I ever had was from North Carolina. My gosh, it was good. Pure and clear. No flavor at all and went right down, until it hit bottom Then, I felt it spreading out. Most of what I have had in Alabama has been made into apple pie, which right off starts me wondering why.

I've never made the stuff but have never passed the chance to drink from a jar if one's around. 

BTW, there's all kinds of stuff in liquor stores calling itself moonshine of one form or another. But it ain't moonshine if the tax is on it!


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## JustJoe (May 24, 2021)

jswordy said:


> They sales tax your ingredients.


I use fruit from the wild and from my garden and the sugar is tax exempt in Minnesota. I use bottles given to me by friends and neighbors. They do tax me on the corks, caps, yeast so I guess I pay a cent or two per case of wine.
They do nick me for the full tax on beer kits though.


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## BernardSmith (May 24, 2021)

Speaking as a recent immigrant from the UK, so many in this country seem to love to control others while trying to convince everyone that this is the land of the free. Prohibition was a proven success. No wait. It wasn't was it? The war on drugs was a proven success. Wait. No, that wasn't either. Laws banning same sex marriage. Now that was a success. Wait. That wasn't either was it? OK. Laws banning miscegenation. They were unquestionably successful. They weren't either? Sheesh. Gotta say that only the certifiably insane keep on repeating the same actions with the phantastic hope that they produce different results. Just saying as I sees it...


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## hounddawg (May 24, 2021)

jswordy said:


> The best moonshine I ever had was from North Carolina. My gosh, it was good. Pure and clear. No flavor at all and went right down, until it hit bottom Then, I felt it spreading out. Most of what I have had in Alabama has been made into apple pie, which right off starts me wondering why.
> 
> I've never made the stuff but have never passed the chance to drink from a jar if one's around.
> 
> BTW, there's all kinds of stuff in liquor stores calling itself moonshine of one form or another. But it ain't moonshine if the tax is on it!


i've drunk delivered, and ect, them boys in the bootheel made mighty fine, as did west va, 
Dawg


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