# Advice (Italian Table Wine)



## Robert64 (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm in the process of starting a large batch of red table wine for an Italian banquet hall. It will be a 400 litre batch made up of 20 litre juice pails. I'm looking for a good dry wine that is medium in body and color. Maybe a Carignane/Alicante/Grenache blend???

Thanks
Rob


----------



## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

If you are getting fresh juice 5 gallon pails what is being offered? Where you are?
Have you made wine?
When does this wine have to be ready by?


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 11, 2009)

Yes, I have made wine before. However, it was for personal consumption. Therefore, I focused on my taste rather than the taste of the masses. I live in Canada. Whole grapes and fresh juices are readily available from Niagara, California and Europe. I'm looking for a wine that will not require aging to be approached.


----------



## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

Rather than blending why not go for some "old standby's"?
Most would know a Pinot Noir. I make that all the time with oak and you can bottle in 6 months. Cab and Red Zin I feel would more a full body wine.


----------



## cpfan (Oct 11, 2009)

Robert64:

Don't know where in Canada you live, but I wonder about the legality of this project. Restaurants are not generally allowed to serve consumer made wine.

Steve


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 11, 2009)

cpfan: The hall is licensed to serve the wine that we make on the premises. 

Tom: A Pinot Noir might make a nice house wine but I would think that a Zin or Cab might be too full bodied for an Italian house wine.


----------



## St Allie (Oct 11, 2009)

Hello Robert and welcome to the forum,

You want something that you can drink young.. but not too 'light' bodywise?

When exactly are you expecting to put this on the table for your guests? What's your timeframe?

I'm a big fan of merlot.. and also cab franc..at least a pinot requires less aging..still, you will need some aging in a red.. or it'll taste terrible.

Allie


----------



## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

Robert64 said:


> cpfan: The hall is licensed to serve the wine that we make on the premises.
> 
> Tom: A Pinot Noir might make a nice house wine but I would think that a Zin or Cab might be too full bodied for an Italian house wine.


Yep! Thats what I said.
_Cab and Red Zin I feel would more a full body wine. _
I'm not sure that the majority will like a blended wine. Most who are not wine drinkers know Pinot Grigio and Pinot Noir so thats what they order when out.


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 11, 2009)

Ok Tom, if you were getting married and had 300 people at you wedding reception, what red and white wines would you put on the tables? What about Gamay and Pinot Grigio?


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 11, 2009)

St Allie said:


> You want something that you can drink young.. but not too 'light' bodywise?
> 
> When exactly are you expecting to put this on the table for your guests? What's your timeframe?



Obviously the shorter the turn around time, the better. I'd like to be under six months.


----------



## St Allie (Oct 11, 2009)

sheesh... that is cutting it fine..

Just a thought..

Would kits be a better option for consistency? That way you could have a range of varietals. Particularly the white kits would be ready to drink at 4 months. Would it be possible to buy your reds from a winery with a bulk discount perhaps?

Allie


----------



## Tom (Oct 11, 2009)

Robert64 said:


> Ok Tom, if you were getting married and had 300 people at you wedding reception, what red and white wines would you put on the tables? What about and Pinot Grigio?



Well how long before the wedding?
That can make a BIG difference. 6 months for a red and like Allie said 4 months for a white.
If you make it I would label it so the guests know what it is. Remember you are making it for the "masses" NOT yourself. So, be safe and make something that all are familiar with. I don't know where you are from so I would say Gamay/Pinot Noir and Pinot Grigio would be safe bets. I think a KIT wine would be best it you need to serve it in 6 months or less.

Where you from?


----------



## St Allie (Oct 11, 2009)

Sauvignon blanc would also be a good, easy drinking choice in a white wine.

Allie


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 12, 2009)

Allie,Tom,

I live in Ottawa, Canada. Many kits and pails of juice are available here. I'm not clear on what the difference is between a rehydrated concentrate and juice. I have made both. In theory, rehydrated concentrated juice should be identical to fresh juice, shouldn't it. I have heard that concentrates are more consistant but lack character. Why would a juice take longer to age?


----------



## Tom (Oct 12, 2009)

Look at it this way.
You can make orange juice from a concentrate and you can buy 100% fresh squeezed.
Which would taste better?
I make wine from 100% fresh CA, Italian and Chilean juice.
It is also cheaper than getting a kit of the same wine. Kits have their place. They can be made any time of the year. They also have wine kits that you can't get in fresh juice. I know we who make wine do both providing that you can get juice. The lower end kit wines will be thin in body and taste. The fresh juice will have better body and taste. 

Kits are designed to be bottled much sooner than fruit or juice wines. That way the consumer will buy another and ....


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 12, 2009)

Tom said:


> Look at it this way.
> You can make orange juice from a concentrate and you can buy 100% fresh squeezed.
> Which would taste better?
> I make wine from 100% fresh CA, Italian and Chilean juice.
> ...



Based on my own experience and from what you and Allie are saying, I should start both fresh juice and kits. The kits will be ready sooner and then I can switch everything to juices.


----------



## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

Robert64 said:


> Based on my own experience and from what you and Allie are saying, I should start both fresh juice and kits. The kits will be ready sooner and then I can switch everything to juices.



I'm just giving you suggestions based on your timeline.. You'll need to pull out all the tricks of the trade if you want to make the red all from juice.. such as bentonite.. finings etc.. kits may be a viable option.. they may not.. however if you are in canada where the taxes on alcohol are horrendous.. kits are going to be a far cheaper option than commercial wines, for such a large wedding party. Also as Tom mentioned kits are designed for a quick turn around, designed to be drinkable sooner.


Allie


----------



## Robert64 (Oct 12, 2009)

St Allie said:


> I'm just giving you suggestions based on your timeline.. You'll need to pull out all the tricks of the trade if you want to make the red all from juice.. such as bentonite.. finings etc.. kits may be a viable option.. they may not.. however if you are in canada where the taxes on alcohol are horrendous.. kits are going to be a far cheaper option than commercial wines, for such a large wedding party.
> 
> Allie



A large wedding party? We will be going through over 800 litres of wine per month. With this kind of volume, finding a good source is important. I need a good wine that is not too expensive. Time in the fermenter is important since for each extra month, I'll need two extra 400 liter stainless steel tanks.

One other piece of inforantion. The supplier of the tanks recommends not bottling and just go from tank to carafe to table. The tanks are variable volume and are designed for this.

I'd love to talk with someone here that has experience in this area.


----------



## Tom (Oct 12, 2009)

WOW ! 800 liters a month! Thats over 200 gallons. Why so much Every month? Is ther e limit you can make if you are from Canada..I thought it was a one time "party"


----------



## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

Robert64 said:


> A large wedding party? We will be going through over 800 litres of wine per month. With this kind of volume, finding a good source is important. I need a good wine that is not too expensive. Time in the fermenter is important since for each extra month, I'll need two extra 400 liter stainless steel tanks.
> 
> One other piece of inforantion. The supplier of the tanks recommends not bottling and just go from tank to carafe to table. The tanks are variable volume and are designed for this.
> 
> I'd love to talk with someone here that has experience in this area.



hehehe..

well english is a wonderfully vague language..!

My interpretation of your earlier post regarding 300 people for a wedding.. I thought it was your wedding.. not that you are commercially catering for weddings in general.

Allie


----------



## Tom (Oct 12, 2009)

I thought the same. I bet there are laws even in Canada regarding just this. *I am taking myself out of this*. Any info I give would get me and you in trouble with the law. If you continue to make wine for this purpose I'm sure you will be breaking laws and I bet you need some license as well.

Allie I don't think we should help commercial endeavors. Any advise would be wrong as we are not lawyers and know what laws there are of what you may be breaking.


----------



## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

In my opinion..

I would have thought a commercial enterprise would not be making these sorts of enquiries regarding equipment/tanks and juices etc.. 6 months prior to opening their doors to customers. Something sounds a bit odd here.

Robert you need project management help from professionals., and a good accountant.

Giving the impression you are arranging catering to a family wedding, it seems this is not the case and I certainly don't have the expertise you are looking for.


Allie


----------



## cpfan (Oct 12, 2009)

Robert64:

Earlier you said that "Whole grapes and fresh juices are readily available from Niagara, California and Europe".

Just want to point out that I don't think that they are available year-round. If going this route you might have to start all the wine for a whole year in the fall. Plus wineries making wine from grapes usually start selling their whites starting in April/May, and their reds two or three *YEARS* later.

Tom, Allie:

Not sure why you thought this was a one-off. I understood his request. See his response to me in post #6 "The hall is licensed to serve the wine that we make on the premises". I interpret this to mean that the banquet hall can make their own wine on-site. This would be the relevant phrase from Ontario's Liquor Act...



> Wine Pub Endorsement
> A wine pub endorsement permits the sale and service of wine manufactured by the licensee on the licensed premises for sale and consumption to patrons on the licensed premises.



Steve


----------



## cpfan (Oct 12, 2009)

Robert64:

Been doing a little more thinking (always dangerous). I think that you need (and perhaps were trying to ask for in the beginning) suggestions for standard red & white house wines for this Italian banquet hall. You probably don't want to name the wines varietally because that would probably mean having multiple red & white varieties available. You want "Banquet Hall Rosso" and "Banquet Hall Bianco".

You probably should research typical Italian wines. EG Red = chianti or valpolicella. White = trebbiano or pinot grigio. Then you need to find a supplier who can provide a steady supply of the required juices/concentrates.

Sorry I don't know what is available in the Ottawa region. The kit companies may be able to help.

Steve


----------



## St Allie (Oct 12, 2009)

Steve,

I read the sentence as
"The hall is licensed to serve the wine that we make, on the premises"

We have a BYO ( bring your own) capability in NZ where you can provide the wine to be served as long as the premises is licensed for a BYO function.

..coupled with Roberts comment to Tom that.."Ok Tom, if you were getting married and had 300 people at you wedding reception, what red and white wines would you put on the tables?

It looked like he was discussing a private function. 

Regardless, I have no experience to share on 800 litres of commercial production monthly.. so have deferred the discussion now.. to people with that experience.

as I stated earlier.. english can be a vague language.

... and easily misinterpreted online.

Allie


----------



## Wade E (Oct 12, 2009)

I dont see making this much in a onth viable nor woud I want anyne to drink wine that is 1 motn or even 3 months old. The bigger the batch the longer it takes to ferment. IMO you would need to be way ahead of this curve and be serving commercial wije for quite some time 1st!


----------

