# 2nd Annual M.A.N.E. Event



## mainshipfred

Although we had a really great bunch of people at Split Rock I would think the more the merrier. So I'll open this thread for comments and suggestions and to let others know there is something being planned. Split Rock has a lot of pluses: we are familar with it, the lodge has all adjoining room making it desireable should we have a large number of people, there are plenty of activities for people with children or if you just wanted to do something else, the location is pretty centralized, plus the festival, hard to beat. However I'm sure there are other places that could be considered if we wanted to try something different. I'm not sure if another time of year would entice more peolple and it's way to early to commit to anything not to mention we don't know when the next Split Rock festival is. Based on how we all got along I would think suggestions would be welcome.


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Although we had a really great bunch of people at Split Rock I would think the more the merrier. So I'll open this thread for comments and suggestions and to let others know there is something being planned. Split Rock has a lot of pluses: we are familar with it, the lodge has all adjoining room making it desireable should we have a large number of people, there are plenty of activities for people with children or if you just wanted to do something else, the location is pretty centralized, plus the festival, hard to beat. However I'm sure there are other places that could be considered if we wanted to try something different. I'm not sure if another time of year would entice more peolple and it's way to early to commit to anything not to mention we don't know when the next Split Rock festival is. Based on how we all got along I would think suggestions would be welcome.


Your place. I'll bring a keg of ho-made beer and the potato salad.

We're pretty flexible depending on my wife's classes. She did a good job studying in advance for her test that she took that Monday. Just needs a "doneness" timer, like the one that comes on a fresh turkey, when it pops she's done drinking wine.


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## mainshipfred

She had fun and probably well deserved.


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## Ajmassa

Let’s go BIG! 1st thing I need is to - hit the lotto! Then- I fly us all out to Napa. Long 4 day weekend. Thinking right before harvest. (Because we all we also be busy after harvest !)

Powerballing it up in the meantime


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## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> Your place. I'll bring a keg of ho-made beer and the potato salad.
> 
> We're pretty flexible depending on my wife's classes. She did a good job studying in advance for her test that she took that Monday. Just needs a "doneness" timer, like the one that comes on a fresh turkey, when it pops she's done drinking wine.



If you were ever considering a day trip or overnight stay Northern VA is a great wine region. There are some areas where you drive down a road and all you see are vineyards after vineyards on both sides of the road. Some loosely consider it the next NAPA Valley.


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## tjgaul

If you're looking for a similar type event, but in a different location there's a winefest in the Finger Lakes in mid July each year. It's held at the race track outside Watkins Glen and would be a long drive for many of you, but might be an option. The link to this year's event is posted below. 

Pros:
Big number of participating wineries / daily seminars on wine & cooking / ample free parking / on site camping & glamping

Cons:
Long drive for most (not me!) / nearest hotels are in town a few miles from the venue 


http://www.flwinefest.com


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## mainshipfred

Very long drive for me, might be 6-7 hours. Nice to know it exists though. I've been to Cooperstown once not the same area but very nice up there.


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## pgentile

It's going to be tough to find something more centrally located than Split Rock for the current group of people. Won't rule out any destinations that the group decides, we like to visit new areas.

Here's a wine fest in Maryland each May. http://wineinthewoods.com/

The other thing about Split Rock though, very few Wine Festivals or events are going to have accommodations were you can walk to and from the festival.


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## pgentile

However the Finger Lakes festival is considered in the top 10 Wine events. Pennsylvania Food & Wine @ Split Rock doesn't make the list.

https://www.thebacklabel.com/top-10-wine-festivals-in-america/#.WzuKO9VKiUk


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> It's going to be tough to find something more centrally located than Split Rock for the current group of people. Won't rule out any destinations that the group decides, we like to visit new areas.
> 
> Here's a wine fest in Maryland each May. http://wineinthewoods.com/
> 
> The other thing about Split Rock though, very few Wine Festivals or events are going to have accommodations were you can walk to and from the festival.



Heather's recommendation for Split Rock does seem to be the perfect venue and the walking distance is another plus for it. Maybe not for a meet up but this one was posted awhile ago and thought it was interesting. Perhaps because I'm from and have family in Pittsburgh.
http://www.awspghwineconference.org/


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> However the Finger Lakes festival is considered in the top 10 Wine events. Pennsylvania Food & Wine @ Split Rock doesn't make the list.
> 
> https://www.thebacklabel.com/top-10-wine-festivals-in-america/#.WzuKO9VKiUk



I see Virginia made the list. Middleburg is my stomping grounds.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I see Virginia made the list. Middleburg is my stomping grounds.



They didn't seem to have the event in 2018. At least that I could find in 60 seconds.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Perhaps because I'm from and have family in Pittsburgh. http://www.awspghwineconference.org/


 I have had my eye on this one as well.


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> If you were ever considering a day trip or overnight stay Northern VA is a great wine region. There are some areas where you drive down a road and all you see are vineyards after vineyards on both sides of the road. Some loosely consider it the next NAPA Valley.


We were considering an overnight trip to the Barboursville Vineyards area, I just love their Cab Franc (https://www.bbvwine.com/wine-shop/cabernet-franc-reserve).


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## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> We were considering an overnight trip to the Barboursville Vineyards area, I just love their Cab Franc (https://www.bbvwine.com/wine-shop/cabernet-franc-reserve).



Let us know if you decide to go. Only a few hours from us.


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## Jal5

pgentile said:


> I have had my eye on this one as well.


When is that one in PGH? Only about an hour from me. Joe


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## heatherd

@mainshipfred and Craig, Having been to Wine in the Woods, Virginia Wine Festival, and PA wine festival, I have to say that the proximity of Split Rock and the PA fest are unique. We'll be hard pressed to find something that's co-located.


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## heatherd

ceeaton said:


> We were considering an overnight trip to the Barboursville Vineyards area, I just love their Cab Franc (https://www.bbvwine.com/wine-shop/cabernet-franc-reserve).


They have good stuff. I have been to a handful of VA vineyards (Barboursville, Horton, Keswick.) and really enjoyed them...


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## heatherd

Also Harford Vineyard is on the Piedmont Wine Trail, should we decide to partake: https://marylandwine.com/trail-type/piedmont-wine-trail/


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## mainshipfred

Jal5 said:


> When is that one in PGH? Only about an hour from me. Joe



From what I can tell it is sometime in early March.


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## mainshipfred

heatherd said:


> They have good stuff. I have been to a handful of VA vineyards (Barboursville, Horton, Keswick.) and really enjoyed them...



Surprised you didn't list any N. Virginia wineries. They are much closer to you. We belong to Pearmund and Effingham probably our favorites as well as Vint Hill, Bull Run and Chrysalis.


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## heatherd

I actually haven't spent any time at NoVa wineries - although we're there fairly often to visit friends in Montclair. I belong to Pippin Hill.

A friend booked a car for a wine tour in Charlottesville last fall, and we did tastings. We rented a house, which was nice. We could do something like that.

I'm also up for heading to the fingerlakes.


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## mainshipfred

As of now it appears to me the general consences is Split Rock again, atleast for next year. Although there could be some super wonderful event that pops up in the meantime. What I am finding most interesting about this thread is the interest in other smaller events. Not necessarily for the M.A.N.E. Event but for smaller meet-ups.


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## heatherd

That's cool, what's the date?


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## mainshipfred

heatherd said:


> That's cool, what's the date?



Was told they would know in a few month


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## mainshipfred

I was looking for wine bottles and ran across this site. 102 cases of the antique green bordeaux bottles comes to $9.06 a case or $0.76 per bottle with shipping. Does anyone want to go in on this. AJ and Paul I can bring them when I bring the barrels.

https://www.burchbottle.com/products/Wine-Bottles_2_74_style.htm


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I was looking for wine bottles and ran across this site. 102 cases of the antique green bordeaux bottles comes to $9.06 a case or $0.76 per bottle with shipping. Does anyone want to go in on this. AJ and Paul I can bring them when I bring the barrels.
> 
> https://www.burchbottle.com/products/Wine-Bottles_2_74_style.htm



This is one inventory item I'm good on. But thanks for considering.

When the barrels come in we should meet someplace that is more convenient for you, since you are putting in all the effort. I'm willing to meet someplace in maryland as long as the place has authentic crab cakes and maryland crab soup.

Also for the barrels, do you need money ahead of pickup or meet?


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## mainshipfred

I already paid for the barrels so when we meet is good. As far as the bottles go 52 cases is the minimum for the bulk price but the shipping is the same for 52 or 102 cases making 52 cases not as economical. I can still get case locally for $10-$11. Come fall I'll need around 15 cases but wouldn't mind having 20 or so spares. Not sure how far AJ is from Baltimore, we could do crabs there. I like your thinking. BTW the barrels are on the ocean somewhere.


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> I was looking for wine bottles and ran across this site. 102 cases of the antique green bordeaux bottles comes to $9.06 a case or $0.76 per bottle with shipping. Does anyone want to go in on this. AJ and Paul I can bring them when I bring the barrels.
> 
> https://www.burchbottle.com/products/Wine-Bottles_2_74_style.htm


If you went with the olive green you'd knock $0.50 per case off. Either color sign me up for 10 cases, that may increase if it has to for you to meet your minimums, depending on when you are going to order them. I need ~ 25 cases to bottle what I have aged in carboys already, but I've already got a few cases on hand (but would rather not clean bottles if I don't have to, it's becoming a cottage industry in our house).


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I already paid for the barrels so when we meet is good. As far as the bottles go 52 cases is the minimum for the bulk price but the shipping is the same for 52 or 102 cases making 52 cases not as economical. I can still get case locally for $10-$11. Come fall I'll need around 15 cases but wouldn't mind having 20 or so spares. Not sure how far AJ is from Baltimore, we could do crabs there. I like your thinking. BTW the barrels are on the ocean somewhere.



Yeah man, I dig the Baltimore idea. 
For the bottles- if you made the order then I would get 10 cases. But I gotta be honest that sounds like a huge pain in the ass for you only to save a buck a case. 
Regarding the barrels—-refresh my memory. What’s still available and how much were they again? 
I may be interested in a 2nd barrel depending on what I find in the 13gal-15gal range. Still weighing options. But I’ll have (x3) 20gal grape batches by September all ready for barrels. 
Still unsure what to do. The world of barrels is new territory me. With lots of long term planning to keep em filled till neutral.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yeah man, I dig the Baltimore idea.
> For the bottles- if you made the order then I would get 10 cases. But I gotta be honest that sounds like a huge pain in the ass for you only to save a buck a case.
> Regarding the barrels—-refresh my memory. What’s still available and how much were they again?
> I may be interested in a 2nd barrel depending on what I find in the 13gal-15gal range. Still weighing options. But I’ll have (x3) 20gal grape batches by September all ready for barrels.
> Still unsure what to do. The world of barrels is new territory me. With lots of long term planning to keep em filled till neutral.



After looking back it looks like they charged me a little less for the barrels then originally quoted. So with shipping 25 liter $182.50 and 30 liter $192.50. I think there are 2 of each left but I'm considering taking one more since my first barrel is now neutral. To me keeping the smaller barrels filled is easier but I don't plan on making batches that large. 

For the bottles I just don't know what the bottom line cost is for others and thought this could help.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> For the bottles I just don't know what the bottom line cost is for others and thought this could help.



I was just thinking about you having to lug around 50-100 cases of bottles. Unloading- loading- taking up space- then loading for separate drop-offs. And I’m already getting them for $10 and change. But if your cool then I’m cool. 
Fred, you go above and beyond my friend. And It is fully appreciated.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I was just thinking about you having to lug around 50-100 cases of bottles. Unloading- loading- taking up space- then loading for separate drop-offs. And I’m already getting them for $10 and change. But if your cool then I’m cool.
> Fred, you go above and beyond my friend. And It is fully appreciated.



Thank you AJ, I'm fortunate enough to have a forklift and pallet racks. So unloading and storing is no problem. I will probably pass on the bulk bottles though.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Fred, you go above and beyond my friend. And It is fully appreciated.



He absolutely does. 

Fred, my 2017 premium zin all grape batch hits a year old in 6 weeks. I'll be bottling in August sometime, a bottle or two will have your name on it.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> He absolutely does.
> 
> Fred, my 2017 premium zin all grape batch hits a year old in 6 weeks. I'll be bottling in August sometime, a bottle or two will have your name on it.



Thanks, looking forward to our mini get together in Baltimore.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> After looking back it looks like they charged me a little less for the barrels then originally quoted. So with shipping 25 liter $182.50 and 30 liter $192.50. I think there are 2 of each left but I'm considering taking one more since my first barrel is now neutral. To me keeping the smaller barrels filled is easier but I don't plan on making batches that large.
> .



Wow. Those prices for Zemplen oak barrels are amazing. 
I think finally finding what batch volumes I’m comfortable with. And that’s about 20gal batches for next bunch of seasons. Filling a 15gal demijohn and a carboy. So a 50L barrel (13.2 gal) is ideal. But waiting a year for that and getting a 2nd 8gal now could be the move too. Tons of particulars to account for tho. 
The plan is to bottle at least half as full varietals - leaving the rest in bulk to blend down the line with the others. I’m not much of a long term planner- so this new world of barrels is kind of throwing me on tilt.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Wow. Those prices for Zemplen oak barrels are amazing.
> I think finally finding what batch volumes I’m comfortable with. And that’s about 20gal batches for next bunch of seasons. Filling a 15gal demijohn and a carboy. So a 50L barrel (13.2 gal) is ideal. But waiting a year for that and getting a 2nd 8gal now could be the move too. Tons of particulars to account for tho.
> The plan is to bottle at least half as full varietals - leaving the rest in bulk to blend down the line with the others. I’m not much of a long term planner- so this new world of barrels is kind of throwing me on tilt.



I think because of the surface to volume ratio the smaller barrels go neutral rather quickly if kept filled. This fall I plan on 10 gallon batches and anticipate losing one gallon through evaporation. If I would slightly over oak I'll still have a gallon to blend back so I think 8's will work well for me. It is barrel carboy management but that doesn't bother me.

Just to remind you my minimum count for the dealership pricing is 10 barrels. I can get whatever size I want and can't imagine the 10 gal would be much more then $10 - $15 more then the 8's and 12's or 13's the same increment higher. Unfortunately I think they only ship once a year.


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## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> I think because of the surface to volume ratio the smaller barrels go neutral rather quickly if kept filled.



That doesn't make sense to me. I agree that the surface area to volume ratio affects how oaky the wine gets, and how fast it gets oaky, but I don't think it can affect how fast the barrel gets neutral. The oak essence is leached out regardless of how much volume there is.

In other words, the "surface area to surface area ratio" is always 1.0!


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## mainshipfred

I have a 2 year old 25 liter barrel that stopped giving of oak after a year and a half. My understanding is 55 gallon barrels are used for 4 years before becoming neutral.


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## Ajmassa

Paul I think there’s 2 ways to look at it. 
The way you’ve already described— wine contact with the oak doesn’t change regardless of size. The oak should not fade at different rates. 

And the other — an 8 gal barrel for example. Assuming 1 week per gallon on 1st run— and doubling every subsequent batch. 
The barrel would oak 2 batches in 6 months and x3 after 14 months total. 3 batches seems to be the accepted MAX amount of batches a barrel can oak in spite of only going 14 months. 
But with a full 53gal barrel — batch #1 at 1year. Batch #2 at 20-24 months. 2 batches and already at 3 year mark and might be oaked out by then. 
Obviously it’s understood not all wine needs same amount of oak— and not all barrels give it at same rate. 
And even tho it defies logic- the smaller barrels are said to go neutral after about 3 runs—- this is how I understood it to be at least.


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Paul I think there’s 2 ways to look at it.
> The way you’ve already described— wine contact with the oak doesn’t change regardless of size. The oak should not fade at different rates.
> 
> And the other — an 8 gal barrel for example. Assuming 1 week per gallon on 1st run— and doubling every subsequent batch.
> The barrel would oak 2 batches in 6 months and x3 after 14 months total. 3 batches seems to be the accepted MAX amount of batches a barrel can oak in spite of only going 14 months.
> But with a full 53gal barrel — batch #1 at 1year. Batch #2 at 20-24 months. 2 batches and already at 3 year mark and might be oaked out by then.
> Obviously it’s understood not all wine needs same amount of oak— and not all barrels give it at same rate.
> And even tho it defies logic- the smaller barrels are said to go neutral after about 3 runs—- this is how I understood it to be at least.



As a general statement, those time frames are pretty much what my barrels have exhibited, the five 6 gallons were neutral at 18 months, the 12 gallon about the same time frame. 

My 30 gallon French oak barrel has had wine in it for close to a year, and I can't detect the slightest hint of oak in the wine yet. I'd planned on leaving it in for a year, but now am starting to expand the time horizon to include maybe two years.........


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## sour_grapes

Well, I admit that I only have theoretical musings on the subject, not experience. I am still cogitating on this. At this point, I am trying to think if there is a way to reconcile these reported observations and the mechanism of oaking.


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## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> As a general statement, those time frames are pretty much what my barrels have exhibited, the five 6 gallons were neutral at 18 months, the 12 gallon about the same time frame.
> 
> My 30 gallon French oak barrel has had wine in it for close to a year, and I can't detect the slightest hint of oak in the wine yet. I'd planned on leaving it in for a year, but now am starting to expand the time horizon to include maybe two years.........



There’s pretty big variable with yours too though. The 6’s are Hungarian and the 30 is French. Good things take time!
As a side note : I think I’ve sworn off American oak completely. Was sampling some of my wine ready for bottling which I used American spirals on. And was drinking a Rodney Strong 2015 Cab while doing it. The American oak spiral taste isn’t necessarily bad to me- but just tasted too much like boring old American blah oak. I assume American barrels give similar taste. A Smokey oak that’s not very complex. 
And while tasting the Rodney Strong it had noticeable oak- but also so much more going on. Very complex. A vanilla/peppery spice to it. So much more pleasant on the palate and nose. 
Keep in mind these are just my own opinions. And I don’t even know what barrels were used- or if American barrels are that similar to spirals. 
But then I remembered JohnT gave me some stave segments when I met up with him. I went ahead and opened the Tupperware container I put em in— and sure as shit the oak segments had a very similar complex aroma to that Rodney Strong Cab. I believe they were French. And for the hell of it— That Rodney Strong clocked in at .993 SG and 3.6 ph lol.


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## Johnd

sour_grapes said:


> Well, I admit that I only have theoretical musings on the subject, not experience. I am still cogitating on this. At this point, I am trying to think if there is a way to reconcile these reported observations and the mechanism of oaking.



The problem is, no two barrels are exactly the same, but should be relatively close with trees from the same area, if one could even determine that......... My current thoughts about barrels have led me to a point where time is immaterial and I just oak the wine til I like it. Barrels that have had two wines in them always get adjuncts added to the mix. Regardless of whether oak flavors are imparted, every wine that's been through a barrel is substantially smoother, rounder, and more enjoyable than its glass stored counterpart.


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> There’s pretty big variable with yours too though. The 6’s are Hungarian and the 30 is French. Good things take time!
> As a side note : I think I’ve sworn off American oak completely. Was sampling some of my wine ready for bottling which I used American spirals on. And was drinking a Rodney Strong 2015 Cab while doing it. The American oak spiral taste isn’t necessarily bad to me- but just tasted too much like boring old American blah oak. I assume American barrels give similar taste. A Smokey oak that’s not very complex.
> And while tasting the Rodney Strong it had noticeable oak- but also so much more going on. Very complex. A vanilla/peppery spice to it. So much more pleasant on the palate and nose.
> Keep in mind these are just my own opinions. And I don’t even know what barrels were used- or if American barrels are that similar to spirals.
> But then I remembered JohnT gave me some stave segments when I met up with him. I went ahead and opened the Tupperware container I put em in— and sure as shit the oak segments had a very similar complex aroma to that Rodney Strong Cab. I believe they were French. And for the hell of it— That Rodney Strong clocked in at .993 SG and 3.6 ph lol.



Coolest barrel thing I've ever been a part of was this past spring at Del Dotto, in their reserve tasting cave. 9 or 10 barrels of wine, American, French, Hungarian oak, all had the EXACT same wine in there, all new barrels, same amount of time, but barrels were all different. It was like drinking different wines. The american oak barrel was quite good, but admittedly, I did like a french the best, but it was only one of the frenchies from a particular barrel company, some I didn't care for were french ones from different makers. The Hungarian was ok, but not my top. It was very eye opening.


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## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> Well, I admit that I only have theoretical musings on the subject, not experience. I am still cogitating on this. At this point, I am trying to think if there is a way to reconcile these reported observations and the mechanism of oaking.



If anyone could do it my vote would be for you.


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## Ajmassa

One thing is certain with this winemaking hobby—- No matter how much knowledge you acquire, there is ALWAYS more to learn!


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## pgentile

I have zero knowledge with barrels, this link at morewine https://morewinemaking.com/articles/Oak_barrel_care_guide , down the page "using barrels" ,doesn't mention size and how long they give up oak, just that barrels go neutral after 3-4 years. Being that I'm getting one, I'm trying to understand some of this

So the oak a barrel is made of has a set limit on how much oakness it can give to wine it touches. If in small barrels wine takes on the oakness quicker because of increased surface area to wine volume, wouldn't the barrel be giving up the oak limit quicker as well? 

I don't feel like doing any math right now or more searching, I'm at work, but does barrel interior surface area vs wine volume ratio stay proportionate with the scale of the barrel size? If it does not and the ratio gets less with size, than it could give up quicker with smaller barrels.


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## sour_grapes

Note: I am giving my response to this all according to "theoretical considerations" only, in hopes of clarifying how I view the mechanisms at play and the mathematical scaling relationships.



pgentile said:


> So the oak a barrel is made of has a set limit on how much oakness it can give to wine it touches. If in small barrels wine takes on the oakness quicker because of increased surface area to wine volume, wouldn't the barrel be giving up the oak limit quicker as well?



No (at least in theory). The wine "taking on oakiness faster" would be due to there being less wine to absorb the oak coming out, not because the oak comes out at a faster rate.



> I don't feel like doing any math right now or more searching, I'm at work, but does barrel interior surface area vs wine volume ratio stay proportionate with the scale of the barrel size?



No, the ratio changes. See this nice post from @stickman :



stickman said:


> View attachment 44596
> 
> 
> I was playing around with the concept a few years ago and generated this very rough relationship. It is just using an average diameter to get the volume and calculating surface area as a cylinder. Close enough for my work at the time; I'm not sure it is worth going much further.
> I made a correction, I only had one barrel head in the first calculation.



As I pointed out in the next post, his result are _very_ close to what one would expect based on a simple dimensional analysis, namely, the surface-area-to-volume ratio scales as one divided by the cube root of the volume.



> If it does not and the ratio gets less with size, than it could give up quicker with smaller barrels.



Why would it give it up _quicker?
_
Edit: I was just checking a Wikipedia page, and learned that this relationship between surface area and volume was first noted by Galileo in 1638: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square–cube_law


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## pgentile

sour_grapes said:


> Note: I am giving my response to this all according to "theoretical considerations" only, in hopes of clarifying how I view the mechanisms at play and the mathematical scaling relationships.



Same here



sour_grapes said:


> No (at least in theory). The wine "taking on oakiness faster" would be due to there being less wine to absorb the oak coming out, not because the oak comes out at a faster rate.





sour_grapes said:


> Why would it give it up _quicker?_



Yah thinking through this, why would oak leech faster or slower due to volume? But could dilution of what the wine extracts from oak decrease in ratio to volume size? Thus resulting in small volumes getting to oak level desired quicker?




sour_grapes said:


> No, the ratio changes. See this nice post from @stickman :



Thanks for the link



sour_grapes said:


> As I pointed out in the next post, his result are _very_ close to what one would expect based on a simple dimensional analysis, namely, the surface-area-to-volume ratio scales as one divided by the cube root of the volume.



if i'm being redundant on what was said earlier in the the thread I apologize, i'm at work and keep being pulled away from more important thing like this, and not sure I've kept up.


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## sour_grapes

pgentile said:


> Yeah thinking through this, why would oak leech faster or slower due to volume? But could dilution of what the wine extracts from oak decrease in ratio to volume size? Thus resulting in small volumes getting to oak level desired quicker?



Yes yes! Precisely my thinking.




> if i'm being redundant on what was said earlier in the the thread I apologize, i'm at work and keep being pulled away from more important thing like this, and not sure I've kept up.



I apologize if that sounded like that; I was not saying that we covered that in _this_ thread. I meant my next post _in that previous thread_ that I linked to. No redundancy detected here!


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## ceeaton

You guys have collectively made my head hurt. I think I'm going to go upstairs and make some pizza and drink a beer and get rid of my headache.


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## Ajmassa

****FOR ALL THOSE INTERESTED in the Mid Atlantic Northeast Event*****

The last 15 posts are a perfect example of the type of conversation to expect at this meetup. So you better bring you ‘A’ game


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## sour_grapes

Nothing too new here, but I had the following image to share. Let's say I have two identical planks of wood, that I happened to have hewn from an oak tree in the the Zemplen forest. I tie rocks to them (to make them sink); I throw one into the local high school swimming pool, and I throw the other into a baby wading pool. Do you think they would become "neutral" at the same time, or at different times? What is your reasoning?


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## heatherd

Love it!!!!


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## mainshipfred

OK let's start here using round numbers and assumptions:
200 liter barrel has 6500 sq. in.
20 liter barrel has 1400 sq. in.
Assume the number of units of potential oak extration is equal to the number of sq. in.
The potential number of units of extraction per barrel for a 200 liter barrel is 6500/200 or 32.50 unit/gallon
The potential number of units of extraction per barrel for a 20 liter barrel is 1400/20 or 70.00 units/gallon
So for the sake of simplicity let's call 35 and 70 half or double depending on how you look at it.
Now when removing the wine from the smaller barrel once it reaches the 35 unit extraction level you only have 35 units left.
If the rate of extraction is a constant the timeframe for the extraction takes half the time for a smaller barrel. Thus becoming neutral sooner.

Boy I can't wait to see the responses. LOL

PS, @sour_grapes I'm still thinking about you pool scenario. Don't have anything yet.


----------



## Boatboy24

Is there water or some other liquid in either pool?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Is there water or some other liquid in either pool?



I have to research the ph and acid of the other liquid.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> ****FOR ALL THOSE INTERESTED in the Mid Atlantic Northeast Event*****
> 
> The last 15 posts are a perfect example of the type of conversation to expect at this meetup. So you better bring you ‘A’ game



And you can't bring your A game if you don't come. Time, date and place coming in a few months. Keep your calander open.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> If the rate of extraction is a constant the timeframe for the extraction takes half the time for a smaller barrel. Thus becoming neutral sooner.



It has to do more with what @Ajmassa5983 said in an earlier post. It's the number of batches that's getting you to neutral not time.

With the small volume barrel you reach your theoretical 35 units faster due to dilution to volume.

If you had a small barrel and a large barrel side by side and change out the wine when you hit your target dilution/units, but only refill the barrels with wine at the same time, they would more likely go neutral at the same time. But because the smaller barrel gets to the unit level quicker you are going to have new wine refills in shorter increments than the larger barrel, resulting it going neutral sooner.


----------



## pgentile

pgentile said:


> they would more likely go neutral at the same time. .



Not really but closer.


----------



## pgentile

sour_grapes said:


> Nothing too new here, but I had the following image to share. Let's say I have two identical planks of wood, that I happened to have hewn from an oak tree in the the Zemplen forest. I tie rocks to them (to make them sink); I throw one into the local high school swimming pool, and I throw the other into a baby wading pool. Do you think they would become "neutral" at the same time, or at different times? What is your reasoning?



It's early so I might not be thinking clearly through this, but if both are fully submerged then both would be exposed to the same surface area to liquid. I say neutral at the same time.

Now keep in mind, the HS swimming pool is likely to be more chlorinated and have a deep end with more pressure and the wading pool likely to have more urine in it, but they should have minimum affects on the planks going neutral.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> It has to do more with what @Ajmassa5983 said in an earlier post. It's the number of batches that's getting you to neutral not time.
> 
> With the small volume barrel you reach your theoretical 35 units faster due to dilution to volume.
> 
> If you had a small barrel and a large barrel side by side and change out the wine when you hit your target dilution/units, but only refill the barrels with wine at the same time, they would more likely go neutral at the same time. But because the smaller barrel gets to the unit level quicker you are going to have new wine refills in shorter increments than the larger barrel, resulting it going neutral sooner.



If I'm understanding correctly the small barrel would sit empty until the larger reached the target extraction. In that case I agree the time to neutral would be the same.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> If I'm understanding correctly the small barrel would sit empty until the larger reached the target extraction. In that case I agree the time to neutral would be the same.


Yes you understand correctly, but the last batch in the small barrel would still finish quicker than the last batch in the larger barrel, so the smaller barrel would go neutral faster.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> It's early so I might not be thinking clearly through this, but if both are fully submerged then both would be exposed to the same surface area to liquid. I say neutral at the same time.
> 
> Now keep in mind, the HS swimming pool is likely to be more chlorinated and have a deep end with more pressure and the wading pool likely to have more urine in it, but they should have minimum affects on the planks going neutral.



Not to mention the surface to volume ratio will be a lot closer and you might have to take the temperature of the water into consideration. Plus the urine to water ratio!!!!!


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Yes you understand correctly, but the last batch in the small barrel would still finish quicker than the last batch in the larger barrel, so the smaller barrel would go neutral faster.



Yep


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> OK let's start here using round numbers and assumptions:
> 200 liter barrel has 6500 sq. in.
> 20 liter barrel has 1400 sq. in.
> Assume the number of units of potential oak extration is equal to the number of sq. in.
> The potential number of units of extraction per barrel for a 200 liter barrel is 6500/200 or 32.50 unit/gallon
> The potential number of units of extraction per barrel for a 20 liter barrel is 1400/20 or 70.00 units/gallon
> So for the sake of simplicity let's call 35 and 70 half or double depending on how you look at it.
> Now when removing the wine from the smaller barrel once it reaches the 35 unit extraction level you only have 35 units left.
> If the rate of extraction is a constant the timeframe for the extraction takes half the time for a smaller barrel. Thus becoming neutral sooner.
> 
> Boy I can't wait to see the responses. LOL
> 
> PS, @sour_grapes I'm still thinking about you pool scenario. Don't have anything yet.



I really like the way you set this up.

Let me use your assumptions, namely, "if the rate of extraction is a constant." (It is probably more complicated, but let's use that for now.) The rate of extraction per area will be constant. Therefore, as @pgentile said, you will get your desired concentration faster. In your example, it would take exactly 1/2 the time as for the large barrel (and, as you say, you will have used up 1/2 of the small barrel's oak essence, or 35 units). Then you swap out the wine for a new batch in the small barrel, but leave the big barrel sitting. Now, you will extract the remaining 35 units of the small barrel. This again takes 1/2 of the time as the whole process takes for the large barrel. Therefore, they both become neutral at the same time.

Of course, we know the rate of extraction is not really constant. I am going to make another post discussing that, but I haven't reached a conclusion.


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> I really like the way you set this up.
> 
> Let me use your assumptions, namely, "if the rate of extraction is a constant." (It is probably more complicated, but let's use that for now.) The rate of extraction per area will be constant. Therefore, as @pgentile said, you will get your desired concentration faster. In your example, it would take exactly 1/2 the time as for the large barrel (and, as you say, you will have used up 1/2 of the small barrel's oak essence, or 35 units). Then you swap out the wine for a new batch in the small barrel, but leave the big barrel sitting. Now, you will extract the remaining 35 units of the small barrel. This again takes 1/2 of the time as the whole process takes for the large barrel. Therefore, they both become neutral at the same time.
> 
> Of course, we know the rate of extraction is not really constant. I am going to make another post discussing that, but I haven't reached a conclusion.



Wating anxiously. Unfortunately I have to go to my boat to change the bilge pumps so it doesn't sink. LOL but not really.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> Wating anxiously. Unfortunately I have to go to my boat to change the bilge pumps so it doesn't sink. LOL but not really.



I am afraid a bunch of family obligations have arisen! Maybe later...


----------



## sour_grapes

Well, I have looked at this a number of times/ways, and just don't see any explanation for a shorter time for smaller barrels to become neutral. 

I tried two more things today (again, on the theoretical front). Because the oak essence will come out fast at first, and then more slowly after some of it is used up, I tried a simple model where the rate of extraction varies with time _t_. (I chose it to be proportional to exp(-_t_/T) because that is easy to handle mathematically.) I found, as expected, that for the smaller barrel, the time to oak-up the first batch was smaller than the time to oak-up the second. But the sum of those times is exactly the same as the time to oak-up the larger batch that has half the Area/Volume ratio. 

Next, I recognized that the math of diffusion is rather well-known. It is well-described by Fick's Law; by "well-described," I mean there is a mechanistic, molecular-level theory of diffusion that leads to a fairly simple mathematical result. When we compare the predictions of Fick's Law to actual experiments, across a wide, wide range of phenomena, you get very good agreement. The "mathematical result" I cited above is a differential equation, but you have to solve it for the situation at hand; for example, it can describe both, say, dumping a load of dye into a lake, or, say, drying wood in a kiln, but you need different solutions to that differential equation to reflect those different initial conditions.

These expressions are kinda complicated. Just for example, I was playing around with expressions like these (for the concentration _c_ of oak essence left in the wood as a function of depth _x_ and time _t_):





where _erf()_ is a complicated but well-known mathematical function. 

But the thing is there is very little in these exercises to distinguish large barrels from small ones.** Like the planks in the two swimming pools, the extraction of oaky goodness from the wood just goes how it goes, not "knowing" if it is diffusing into a large volume or a small one. It became clear to me as I was playing with this that there was not even a way to encapsulate the information about the size of the barrel (except as described in ** below). I am forced to conclude that barrels of all sizes become neutral at the same rate.


** There is one, minor effect that differs between the case of large and small barrels, namely, the concentration of oak in the wine increases faster for the small barrel, and thus could possibly slow down the continued outdiffusion of oak essence from the wood. However, this is problematic for two reasons. First, it should be a _very small_ effect, because the concentration of the oak flavors in the wine is many orders of magnitude smaller than in the wood. Moreover, this effect works the wrong way: if taken seriously, it would indicate that small barrels should take _longer_ to attain neutrality.


----------



## mainshipfred

I'm going to leave this one go for now. What is experimentally known is smaller barrels do give off oak faster and they go neutral around 18 months. There has to be something not being taken into consideration.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I'm going to leave this one go for now. What is experimentally known is smaller barrels do give off oak faster and they go neutral around 18 months. There has to be something not being taken into consideration.



I don't even own a barrel yet and this is bothering me now for two days.

@sour_grapes very impressive, but once I got to the square roots in your calculation my brain fried, it's been way to long since high school and college. 

Did some research(Googles) and there is not much information on barrel size and any type of analysis tangible to our subject here.

But it appears that the unknown element in this could be micro-oxygenation rates on the size of the barrel's surface area to volume, not just what leeches out of the wood for the same reason.

Like I said not much out there but here are a few links:

"When people discuss cooperage, they often focus upon wood. But oxygen also informs aging. Take the surface area to volume ratios above and add another factor—not the barrel itself, but the air resident in it. Oxygen is a serious contributor to a wine’s evolution. Small amounts of oxygen pass through the barrel, the joints, and the bunghole. If you use a larger barrel, like the Foudre, the wine receives proportionately less oxygen than it would if it were casked in a barrique or a puncheon, since there is a lower ratio of surface area to wine volume."

https://pisoninotes.com/notes/barrel-sizes-matters-lucia-chardonnay/

"Smaller barrels have a stronger impact on wine, so most Brunello producers use botti because they feel three years aging in small casks would produce overpowering oak flavors in the finished product."

http://winesnark.com/when-it-comes-to-wood-size-does-matter/

Still reading stuff so it's just a hypothesis at this point. I'm reading about some old world wineries switching from giant casks to smaller barrels because of faster maturation.


----------



## Johnd

I’ll agree that the concentration of oak flavor accumulates in a wine that’s in a small barrel at a faster rate than a larger one, and believe most all agree that this is the case. Presumably, this is due to the ratio of wine volume to exposed wood area, and I think most understand and agree. 

When it comes to longevity, I’m with @sour_grapes, and believe that neutrality (inability to impart detectable oak flavor) is consistent in barrels of various sizes made of the same wood. My 12 gallon barrel lasted no longer than my 6’s, though the 6 will oak more wine than the 12 due to the ratio mentioned above. The wine I have in a brand spanking new 30 gallon barrel still shows little to no oak flavor 9 months into its gig, whereas 6 gallons would have been ruined (overoaked) in a new 6 gallon barrel by now. IMHO, soak time determines how long a barrel lasts before neutrality, independent of the ratio.


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> Well, I have looked at this a number of times/ways, and just don't see any explanation for a shorter time for smaller barrels to become neutral.
> 
> I tried two more things today (again, on the theoretical front). Because the oak essence will come out fast at first, and then more slowly after some of it is used up, I tried a simple model where the rate of extraction varies with time _t_. (I chose it to be proportional to exp(-_t_/T) because that is easy to handle mathematically.) I found, as expected, that for the smaller barrel, the time to oak-up the first batch was smaller than the time to oak-up the second. But the sum of those times is exactly the same as the time to oak-up the larger batch that has half the Area/Volume ratio.
> 
> Next, I recognized that the math of diffusion is rather well-known. It is well-described by Fick's Law; by "well-described," I mean there is a mechanistic, molecular-level theory of diffusion that leads to a fairly simple mathematical result. When we compare the predictions of Fick's Law to actual experiments, across a wide, wide range of phenomena, you get very good agreement. The "mathematical result" I cited above is a differential equation, but you have to solve it for the situation at hand; for example, it can describe both, say, dumping a load of dye into a lake, or, say, drying wood in a kiln, but you need different solutions to that differential equation to reflect those different initial conditions.
> 
> These expressions are kinda complicated. Just for example, I was playing around with expressions like these (for the concentration _c_ of oak essence left in the wood as a function of depth _x_ and time _t_):
> 
> View attachment 49776
> 
> 
> 
> where _erf()_ is a complicated but well-known mathematical function.
> 
> But the thing is there is very little in these exercises to distinguish large barrels from small ones.** Like the planks in the two swimming pools, the extraction of oaky goodness from the wood just goes how it goes, not "knowing" if it is diffusing into a large volume or a small one. It became clear to me as I was playing with this that there was not even a way to encapsulate the information about the size of the barrel (except as described in ** below). I am forced to conclude that barrels of all sizes become neutral at the same rate.
> 
> 
> ** There is one, minor effect that differs between the case of large and small barrels, namely, the concentration of oak in the wine increases faster for the small barrel, and thus could possibly slow down the continued outdiffusion of oak essence from the wood. However, this is problematic for two reasons. First, it should be a _very small_ effect, because the concentration of the oak flavors in the wine is many orders of magnitude smaller than in the wood. Moreover, this effect works the wrong way: if taken seriously, it would indicate that small barrels should take _longer_ to attain neutrality.



YES! This response did not disappoint!! With Fick’s Law to boot! I looked at it from a couple angles myself, and also kept proving the opposite somehow too. 
The experiment I kept re-visiting was to take (x2) 60 gal barrels- one filled with 60gal. The other filled with 30gal and a 30gal bladder inserted. And down the wormhole I went. Results were interrupted when the plank was removed from the pool and used to beat a dead horse unfortunately.


----------



## sour_grapes

Thanks, all, for the nice discussion. I apologize for my role in the threadjack, but since it was Fred's thread to begin with, at least I am in good company! I am kinda glad this discussion took place in a thread about a Mid-Atlantic meet-up, because I think we were "overlooked" by some other contributors who normally would have chimed in! 

@Johnd, thanks for your comments. I must admit that I misunderstood your post the other day. I thought you were saying that small barrels did become neutral faster, and I took your claim (which I misunderstood) very seriously. I should have spent more time on reading comprehension than on Fick's Law!


----------



## mainshipfred

Thank you Paul, heck I was glad you chimed in, we always look forward to your insight. Someday someone is going to get to come up with a reasonable explaination.


----------



## Johnd

sour_grapes said:


> @Johnd, thanks for your comments. I must admit that I misunderstood your post the other day. I thought you were saying that small barrels did become neutral faster, and I took your claim (which I misunderstood) very seriously. I should have spent more time on reading comprehension than on Fick's Law!



LOL!! I didn’t know you were debating with me, we’re on the same track on this one!!

The only variable that I can envision, you mentioned, is one of “saturation”. Can wine get enough oak in it such that it can’t take any more, and if so, as the saturation level increases, does the amount of oakiness extracted from the barrel decrease, leaving more for the next wine? Or is it simply a straight line depletion based on time and independent of wine volume or oakiness? I tend to think the latter, with no data to back it up, only gut......


----------



## mainshipfred

My last minute thought was the depth of the toast with small and large barrels. I would think it might take a bit longer to toast a larger barrel to the same toast level and maybe penetrating the staves more. Again just something that popped in my mind.


----------



## mainshipfred

The date is set, can't wait. If anyone thinks of a better thread to put this on please do.

https://www.splitrockresort.com/things-to-do/events/wine-festival/


----------



## mainshipfred

Sometime this week I going to reserve the rooms at Split Rock. I think I'll start with 10 like last year. I'll reserve them at the Lodge and try to get us on the same side of the second floor. Let me know if you are planning on cominng. The 6 of us such a great time I can't imagine what 10 or more would be like. I'm going to post this on the other thread to make such those interested see it. Also, if you want the main facility or a cabin please let me know and for those of you that didn't come last year there is a 2 night minimum.

https://www.splitrockresort.com/things-to-do/events/wine-festival/


----------



## mainshipfred

OK, I just spoke to Split Rock and they, and rightfully so, are questioning our 10 room group rate since we only had 6 last year which they still gave us the group rate. They want me to give a credit card which they will charge for the rooms that are not booked. I really don't want to do that even though I believe everyone from last year will come again and assume we will get additional folks this year. If you would, please confirm whether or not you will be booking and please promote it to others you know live in a reasonable distance. I'm posting this in the other thread as well.


----------



## heatherd

We will go, and want to be in the Lodge.


----------



## ceeaton

We'll go, but it will be arrive Friday evening, leave Sunday morning. We want stay wherever the party afterwards is so that we don't have a long and potentially relationship marring walk back to our room, if you know what I mean.


----------



## pgentile

We will be attending again this year. Probably friday and saturday night this time.


----------



## ceeaton

Also was recently reminded that my older brother and SIL would like to attend. We told them about how much fun it was (when we all got together for Christmas at their house) and they seemed all in. From past experience I'll believe it when I see it, but I did pass along the dates and a link to Split Rock's site. I told them to hold off signing up until we see if Fred will put his neck and credit card on the line to reserve a block of rooms.  Actually I said wait until we see if the "party" afterwards is gonna be at the Lodge or Gardenside/Lakeside lodge before booking a room.


----------



## heatherd

I think it would be ideal to have us all together so you guys don't have to drive me home again!!  My vote is the spot you guys had last year on the water, which is The Lodge.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> OK, I just spoke to Split Rock and they, and rightfully so, are questioning our 10 room group rate since we only had 6 last year which they still gave us the group rate. They want me to give a credit card which they will charge for the rooms that are not booked. I really don't want to do that even though I believe everyone from last year will come again and assume we will get additional folks this year. If you would, please confirm whether or not you will be booking and please promote it to others you know live in a reasonable distance. I'm posting this in the other thread as well.



@mainshipfred— Somehow I missed this post. If you haven’t done so already you can lock me in as a “confirmed”. Really looking forward to it. Thanks for taking the lead on this again bud.


----------



## mainshipfred

I find it impossible to believe anyone would regret attending the meet up. Thanks to @heatherd we picked a relatively central location that has something familys of all make-ups can enjoy. My only confusion is why more people don't show an interest. I don't know where else to post this besides Meetups and Events. I know @Johnd and @sour_grapes would like to attend but it would be a huge commitment considering their location and @Boatboy24 and I'm sure others have summer sports to deal with. If anyone has any ideas please share, or if you communicate with others within a reasonable distance from Split rock let them know. One of the Washington Winemakers buying a barrel lives in the Harrisburg area and has already shown an interest and is letting some of the others know about the event. Might be interesting hearing about views and technics of others outside our group. Although I feel relatively comfortable we will hit the 10 mark I really don't want to put my credit card on hold as a just in case. I also don't want to wait so long we can't get enough rooms together in the Lodge. Last thing, Knowing the weather wasn't the greatest last year and maybe up in the mountains that's what you get but with so many good cooks in the group I thought we could rent a pavilion with a grill and through in a pot luck with the tastings.


----------



## Ajmassa

Some “Fyre Festival” style marketing might help.


----------



## heatherd

mainshipfred said:


> I find it impossible to believe anyone would regret attending the meet up. Thanks to @heatherd we picked a relatively central location that has something familys of all make-ups can enjoy. My only confusion is why more people don't show an interest. I don't know where else to post this besides Meetups and Events. I know @Johnd and @sour_grapes would like to attend but it would be a huge commitment considering their location and @Boatboy24 and I'm sure others have summer sports to deal with. If anyone has any ideas please share, or if you communicate with others within a reasonable distance from Split rock let them know. One of the Washington Winemakers buying a barrel lives in the Harrisburg area and has already shown an interest and is letting some of the others know about the event. Might be interesting hearing about views and technics of others outside our group. Although I feel relatively comfortable we will hit the 10 mark I really don't want to put my credit card on hold as a just in case. I also don't want to wait so long we can't get enough rooms together in the Lodge. Last thing, Knowing the weather wasn't the greatest last year and maybe up in the mountains that's what you get but with so many good cooks in the group I thought we could rent a pavilion with a grill and through in a pot luck with the tastings.


Sounds good - we're in! I concur on potluck/grilling and staying in the Lodge.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

I am just finding about this now - seems like alot of fun !


----------



## mainshipfred

@Mario Dinis I may have said this before but it appears you and AJ have a similar background in winemaking. You should consider coming to Split rock in June.


----------



## crooked cork

Where is Split Rock? is it a town or a place, what state?


----------



## Johnd

crooked cork said:


> Where is Split Rock? is it a town or a place, what state?



https://www.splitrockresort.com/things-to-do/events/wine-festival/


----------



## Chuck E

11 hour drive...


----------



## mainshipfred

Chuck E said:


> 11 hour drive...



you must be way west.


----------



## Chuck E

mainshipfred said:


> you must be way west.



How much is the special room rate?


----------



## mainshipfred

They won't tell me until I commit to 10 which we don't have yet. But last year it was $336.80 for both nights and included the manditory resort fee. Plus the cost of the festival which I can't remember.


----------



## Mario Dinis

mainshipfred said:


> @Mario Dinis I may have said this before but it appears you and AJ have a similar background in winemaking. You should consider coming to Split rock in June.


Thank you. I'll think about it.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just to let everyone know I haven't booked the rooms yet and probably won't until we get 10. It's going to start sneaking up fast and I'm hoping it's not too late for us to all get in the lodge. I'm probably just going to book a room for BJ and myself.


----------



## baron4406

Just found this Fred, I guess I was confused lol. I looked up Split Rock and they didn't say anything about a two night minimum. So I looked on here to see if there was anything besides the barrel thread and lo and behold there was this thread. So how many room do you have commitments from? We want to go but Corinne is again fighting health problems, but this event is still 3 months away. So you can tentatively schedule us for now Fred.


----------



## mainshipfred

baron4406 said:


> Just found this Fred, I guess I was confused lol. I looked up Split Rock and they didn't say anything about a two night minimum. So I looked on here to see if there was anything besides the barrel thread and lo and behold there was this thread. So how many room do you have commitments from? We want to go but Corinne is again fighting health problems, but this event is still 3 months away. So you can tentatively schedule us for now Fred.



The issues is they want to hold me responsible for the 10 rooms if we get the group rate. We only have 6 commitments (you would make 7) which are the same folks as last year. I'm not willing to put my credit card at risk for paying for 8 additional nights so I'm just going to book a room for myself and BJ. I have no idea how many rooms are left in the lodge. I gave up trying to get the numbers.


----------



## mainshipfred

I just booked my room. There are no Friday rooms left at the Lodge so I booked Saturday and Sunday. I got a 2nd floor Lakeside room. The festival tickets this year are $45.00. The room rate was $211.00 something per night with either an AAA or AARP discount. She told me by the beginning to middle of May the rooms are usually gone.


----------



## ceeaton

Just got our reservations. It is to the point they couldn't guarantee the Lakeside Lodge, but she added a note that we'd prefer to stay there. Can't get the AARP discount yet, so our final price was over $600 for two nights (including the $45 festival tickets). Still worth it, we had a blast last year (and one of us had more of a blast than the other, what happens at Split Rock stays at Split Rock).


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> Just got our reservations. It is to the point they couldn't guarantee the Lakeside Lodge, but she added a note that we'd prefer to stay there. Can't get the AARP discount yet, so our final price was over $600 for two nights (including the $45 festival tickets). Still worth it, we had a blast last year (and one of us had more of a blast than the other, what happens at Split Rock stays at Split Rock).



Are they filling up faster than they told me?


----------



## baron4406

At those prices I'll be skipping this year lol. I hate having to do the "responsible adult" thing and pay bills. Have fun guys!


----------



## tjgaul

It was really great getting together last year, but we're not going to be able to attend this time. I will be watching for the posts afterwards. Try to behave yourselves . . . well at least a little bit.


----------



## mainshipfred

Being no one is showing an interest except for Craig we are probably not going either.I'll wait until the beginning of May to cancel the room.


----------



## heatherd

Still in.... Getting my reservation.


----------



## ceeaton

We'll have fun whether any of you show up or not. From what they said you can cancel up to a few days in advance and still get a full refund.


----------



## heatherd

We are booked!!!!


----------



## heatherd

We got a lakeside room in the Lodge. My hubby and daughter are coming too. They're not going to do the wine festival, so I'll tag along with y'all and your better halves.


----------



## mainshipfred

heatherd said:


> We got a lakeside room in the Lodge. My hubby and daughter are coming too. They're not going to do the wine festival, so I'll tag along with y'all and your better halves.



BJ doesn't really want to go. Maybe you can FB her to change her mind. We are still booked though.


----------



## ceeaton

heatherd said:


> We got a lakeside room in the Lodge. My hubby and daughter are coming too. They're not going to do the wine festival, so I'll tag along with y'all and your better halves.


You are more than welcome to tag along with us. Let's hope for no rain this year.

No clue where our room will be, we'll know when we get there. As long as the bed has pillows, I'm fine. Usually doesn't matter much after drinking wine all day.


----------



## heatherd

Sounds good, see you all this weekend....


----------



## ceeaton

heatherd said:


> Sounds good, see you all this weekend....


Looks like the weather will be nicer this weekend. Sunny, high of 69*F with a light breeze. Guessing a cold front is coming through on Friday.

Barb and I will be there around dinner time Friday, but will probably stop on the way up. Last year we sat and ate with Fred and BJ and I spent most of my "fun" money. As I remember you get up there a bit later because of your longer drive. We'll most likely meet up at the festival. Drive safe, you know how nutty PA drivers are!


----------



## tjgaul

Hope you guys have a good time. With a little luck we will be able to join you next year.


----------



## Boatboy24

Have fun, kids! Don't do anything I wouldn't do!


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Have fun, kids! Don't do anything I wouldn't do!


I may pack a wine or two tonight with your name on it. Now if I can just keep Fred and BJ from drinking it... I was thinking my first ever kit, the WE SE Viognier, it's four years old and I'm guessing might be declining. But I know you fancy Viogniers. Worse comes to worse and you can use it to cook with some seafood.


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## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> I may pack a wine or two tonight with your name on it. Now if I can just keep Fred and BJ from drinking it... I was thinking my first ever kit, the WE SE Viognier, it's four years old and I'm guessing might be declining. But I know you fancy Viogniers. Worse comes to worse and you can use it to cook with some seafood.



We ended up cancelling our room and as it turned out it was a good thing we did. Our dog had to have emergency surgery to remove her spleen. Nurse BJ can't leave her.


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## ceeaton

Sorry Jim, free shipping is no longer available...


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## ceeaton

Arrived just after 6 pm, temperature was 62*F with a light breeze and very low humidity. Perfect weather for sampling 20 or so wines!


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## ceeaton

Now I know why the blackout curtains are so thick. The sun is really intense in the morning. Best image I can post with limited resources (I dislike my camera on my phone).


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## Boatboy24

A shame you couldn't get a room with a decent view.


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## ceeaton

I just ventured out to get something from my car and I don't think the weather could be better for this festival. Nice breeze, 66. Trying to figure out if I can wear my sweatshirt and hide my fat without overheating...


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## baron4406

I'm actually putting away money now for next year. Health problems were the big problem this year with C. Hope everybody had fun


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## ceeaton

It was a beautiful day. Well worth the money. I would caution buying the wine event tickets from the resort, I'd use Etix. They included both days tickets in my "package" when I only requested one day. I had to leave a voice message on Friday from my room (no response) and was "allowed" to write a note on my envelope to the event coordinator. No idea if I'll get reimbursed the $90 for Sunday's tickets at this point.

Would have been better if my wife hadn't severely sprained her ankle while getting in line for the event (stepped in a pot hole), but we made the best of things and like I said the weather was fantastic this year. Found a new winery close to home that sourced Pinot Noir grapes from B.C., a Cab Sauv from Paso Robles that were very well made. Will have to make a trip in the next few weeks to get a few bottles (I hate walking around with bottles at the festival, or waiting in line when I have them put away till the end of the day).


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