# MLF: My hopes are going down....



## geek (Jun 10, 2013)

Decided to start a new thread.
Chilean juice pails: Cabernet Sav and Malbec.

Pitched Lalvin Bacchus with opti-malo and ACTI-ML nutrients on 6/4.
No signs of MLF at all (room very dark and used flash light).

I know that I should be patience.
Decided to call midwest, where I bought it from, and spoke to one of the guys that really knows about this hobby.
He asked me that if this is Chilean juice they come pre-balanced and we should not attempt MLF on pre-balanced juice (just like kits).

He stated that I could wait longer to see if it starts but he doubts it and highly recommended sulfiting the wine before it is too late without being stabilized (too late meaning that the wine needs protection with k-meta).
He re-stated that pre-balanced juice, just like wine kits, should not be attempted to get them through MLF.

I spoke to a different online vendor and he never heard of juice pails being pre-balanced.

The buckets say Toro Negro for the company that imports the juice.
I sent them an email asking this specific question in hopes they can answer.

Have you guys heard about this?? 

..


----------



## joeswine (Jun 10, 2013)

*balance and fresh juice*

It has been my experience that all the fresh juice that I have purchased is balance down to the acidity level ready for you to start the basic process to it.nothing fancy about it, just like a kit only raw,Im not found of MLF to start with.......that's my take on it..


----------



## geek (Jun 10, 2013)

Have you tried those chilean juice pails from Toro Negro?


----------



## shoebiedoo (Jun 10, 2013)

geek said:


> Have you tried those chilean juice pails from Toro Negro?



I called the company in Canada that imports the juice and they were less than helpfull, but the numbers he gave me indicated that they were balanced. I was going to double check the numbers but the pH probe that came with my tester isn't working right so I have to wait for another one to come. I do know the some of the California pails are treated with lysozyme and therefore should not go through MLF. I don't think I will ever put a juice bucket through MLF unless I know for a fact the pH is low.
I will say that the 4 buckets I have are all in secondary doing well . I'm comparing 2 verities directly against what I get from L'uva Bella. I'll tell all mid ohio folks how it turns out.


----------



## Runningwolf (Jun 10, 2013)

So which part is balanced? It's not the acid! They are adjusted to 21 brix.


----------



## yakhunter (Jun 10, 2013)

For my 2 cents, the first batch I made was a Toro Negro Chilean Malbec fresh juice bucket. I did NOT try to put it through MLF. However, It was recommended by the local shop owner (trusted) that I do so, and it was my intention. I just ran out of time...

Anyway, it apparently went through MLF spontaneously. I thought it might have because of the presence of tiny bubbles, so I bought a test kit and it showed that it had undergone MLF even though I had not added the bacteria. It tastes great. I doubt this helps answer your question, but data are data...

J


----------



## geek (Jun 10, 2013)

When I emailed Toro Negro in Canada last week about PH/TA levels, here's the response I got:

"*Congratulations on your first juice with Toro Negro!

I can give you a range of the pH and TA readings, because I don't have more information on where you purchased or when.

Our juices are released with a range of 3.5-3.9pH and a TA of 2.8-3.5
The target range of SG is 1021 prior to release.

All of our juices vary due to different varietals however if you do your own measurements you should find it within these ranges.

Hope that this helps!

Valeria jasarevic
[email protected]*"

Per my ph56, the PH reading for these 2 batches is ~3.14.

So I am very confused, why would the PH vary this much after 1st alcoholic fermentation?

..
..


----------



## geek (Jun 10, 2013)

Guys, looking closer at the plastic pails, it says:

"*Contains fresh grape musts, wine yeast, tartaric acid and tanins*".

Is this a clue?

..
Says "*Packaged by: The Wine Village Inc, Ontatrio Canada*"

..


----------



## ibglowin (Jun 10, 2013)

Sounds "messed" with to me!


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jun 10, 2013)

Varis,
Trust me when I tell you that I have the exact same juice buckets. 
I recommended MLB VP41 because it is a superior strain of MLB. 
Take the flashlight and point it from the back of the neck if the carboy towards you and look very close. 
One thing you need to do is NOT make so many adjustments, you won't be able to tell what worked or what caused more issues.
If MLF didn't start, I would purchase VP 41 and re pitch it.
I can tell you yhat my malbec took longer than the cab sav, and the fermentation is so light compared to the cab sav, hardly any visible bubbles. 
These juice buckets are not balanced like a wine kit.


----------



## geek (Jun 10, 2013)

Tom,
Tried the flash light but nope, nothing on either batch.

I'll just wait a couple more days.... :-(


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jun 10, 2013)

Has the temp of your cab come down? Remind me again what the ABV is. 

Fingers crossed! 

Jim


----------



## geek (Jun 10, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> Varis,
> Trust me when I tell you that I have the exact same juice buckets.
> I recommended MLB VP41 because it is a superior strain of MLB.
> Take the flashlight and point it from the back of the neck if the carboy towards you and look very close.
> ...



where did you get yours? I see a 2.5gr good for 66 gal, too much.

The Lalvin Bacchus I used was a 1gr pack for each carboy.

..


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jun 11, 2013)

Varis,
That's the packet that I purchased, although it is more than I needed, the quality of the product more than justified the cost.

I added opti-malo when I racked the wine to the carboys.

I rehydrated less than 1/8 teaspoon per 6 gallon carboy.

Both carboys are in my office at approx. 68-70 degrees.

At this point I covered the carboys to shield them from light and walked away from them.

Every few days or so I check them.

I'm not sure what the heat tolerance of Bacchus is, but 90 was a bit hot.

At this point I would re pitch MLB if you are certain that it hasn't started. 

One question: did you add the opti-malo with the MLB? 

I'm using the exact same brand of juice buckets, the Malbec took a little longer to start, and you can hardly see any activity


----------



## geek (Jun 11, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> Varis,
> That's the packet that I purchased, although it is more than I needed, the quality of the product more than justified the cost.
> 
> I added opti-malo when I racked the wine to the carboys.
> ...



Tom,

Yes, I added it.
I did a mix of Opti-malo and Acti-ML in a bit of wine in a small container, stirred this up and then added the 1g packet of Bacchus.....then let it sit for about 15 minutes or so, stirred a bit more and added to carboys.

Did you buy your buckets from M&M in Hartford? I think that's where my local HBS gets them but not sure.


----------



## robie (Jun 11, 2013)

geek said:


> *
> *Per my ph56, the PH reading for these 2 batches is ~3.14.
> ..



I haven't done an MLF for awhile now, so my memory may be off. Isn't the minimum pH for most MLB about 3.30? If yours is that minimum, it will never start at 3.14. You will need a special low-pH MLB.

How long has it been since alcoholic fermentation ended?

Your LHBS is more concerned about having to replace the kit, than he/she is about your wine getting through MLF. Unless it has been a considerable time since alcoholic fermentation finished, if you are protecting the wine from air and limiting head space, you should be able to wait a couple weeks to check if MLF is underway. Sometimes it is really hard to "see" and MLF in progress. If the pH, temperature, and ABV are within tolerance for your MLB, you just might be pleasantly surprised if you check the wine in a couple weeks for malic and lactic acid changes.


----------



## geek (Jun 11, 2013)

robie, I don't have the used/empty Lalvin Bacchus packets any longer but I don't recall seeing anything about PH values in the writing; it said about the temperature.

Alcoholic ferm ended about May 31 per my notes, I pitched the bacteria on June 4. I first mixed the opti-malo and acti-ml on a bit of juice, then added the mlb and waited 15 minutes before I pitched into carboys.


----------



## geek (Jun 11, 2013)

from the lalvinyeast.com website, found this about the Bacchus:

"*These malolactic cultures are an ideal and economic tool to complete rapid MLF even when the wine pH is as low as 3.1, alcohol to 13.5% and the total SO2 is less than 20 ppm. For best results in volumes up to 23 L, add Bacchus immediately after the alcoholic fermentation is complete and the wine temperature is 18°-24°C (64°-75°F).* "


----------



## HangenOn (Jun 11, 2013)

I would say based on personal experience you cannot use the presence or absence of bubbles as an indication of MLF activity.

I had a carboy of Merlot this year that never showed any activity. The Cabernet sitting beside the Merlot showed all the classic signs (nice tiny bubbles).

It stressed me out until I ran a chromo test. I could tell by the test that MLF was progressing. I tested a few more times before it eventually finished.


----------



## robie (Jun 11, 2013)

HangenOn said:


> I would say based on personal experience you cannot use the presence or absence of bubbles as an indication of MLF activity.
> 
> I had a carboy of Merlot this year that never showed any activity. The Cabernet sitting beside the Merlot showed all the classic signs (nice tiny bubbles).
> 
> It stressed me out until I ran a chromo test. I could tell by the test that MLF was progressing. I tested a few more times before it eventually finished.



I agree completely. The only way to really determine MLF is with the proper test and that test is going to take patience on geek's part.


----------



## robie (Jun 11, 2013)

geek said:


> from the lalvinyeast.com website, found this about the Bacchus:
> 
> "*These malolactic cultures are an ideal and economic tool to complete rapid MLF even when the wine pH is as low as 3.1, alcohol to 13.5% and the total SO2 is less than 20 ppm. For best results in volumes up to 23 L, add Bacchus immediately after the alcoholic fermentation is complete and the wine temperature is 18°-24°C (64°-75°F).* "



You should be good at a pH of 3.1. Just understand that 3.1 is the limit, not the norm. Still, you should be good. By observing and MLF, it is just not as cut and dried as alcoholic fermentation. Just be patient and measure in 2 weeks.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jun 11, 2013)

Hangon, I agree 100%


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jun 14, 2013)

Hey Varis: Any updates/progress?


----------



## geek (Jun 14, 2013)

Nope, nothing, no activity at all brother...

I *just *got my chromatography test kit in the mail from PI Wines (sponsor).

How is yours going?


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jun 14, 2013)

geek said:


> How is yours going?



Slow, but steady. I'll test again in a few days.


----------



## geek (Jun 15, 2013)

I will attempt on a test this weekend, will check videos on FB on how to do, if any tricks you can pass on, let me know.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jun 15, 2013)

geek said:


> I will attempt on a test this weekend, will check videos on FB on how to do, if any tricks you can pass on, let me know.




I found these to be helpful:

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wmlfinfo.pdf

http://morebeer.com/public/wine/Product Directions/MLchroma.pdf


----------



## geek (Jun 16, 2013)

I just started the chromatography test.
Note that also just added some oak chips in the carboys (american medium toast) and used a straw only about 7 inches long to move the chips down a bit and stirred a bit on the top, on the Malbec there was lots of bubbles/foam forming, see picture.
The Cab didn't do this but I see tiny bubbles coming through the oak chips.


NOTE: I degassed these 2 batches really well in the pail before I racked into carboy using the all in one pump, there were no signs of CO2 left overs..!!

1. I assume adding oak at this stage is ok?
2. are the tubes/pipetes re-usable or just toss them?
3. Instructions not specific but I used a pipete for every acid and for every wine sample, right?

..


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jun 17, 2013)

Varis,
I used separate pipete as well.
They can be found real cheap.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jun 17, 2013)

I use one for each sample also.


----------



## geek (Jun 17, 2013)

See attached pictures from preliminary results (removed paper from solution yesterday at 5pm and put in garage.

Checked this morning and looks like dry already but left alone to unfold at 24 hours mark.
The first pic shows a chilean Malbec kit to the far right that I didn't put through MLF but wanted to check it anyways. Also shows the chilean Malbec from juice buckets (2nd to the right).

The 2nd pic shows the Cabernet and Malbex.


----------



## geek (Jun 17, 2013)

Different shot, from left:
1. Cabernet (not much visible due to angle of paper)
2. Malbec
3. Malbec kit (not put through MLF)


----------



## ibglowin (Jun 17, 2013)

LOL,

Lets try flattening it out so we can see the whole sheet in one shot! Roll it backwards and hold it with a rubber band if need be to get it to lay flat.


----------



## geek (Jun 17, 2013)

LOL,

I wanted to leave it folded in garage as I checked on my way out to the office this morning....I know...I know...

Will post a better picture later today...thanks for looking Mike.


----------



## ibglowin (Jun 18, 2013)

There seems to be some post disappearing from a bunch a threads as of late. We have a note into the Admin to see whats going on.

You don't want to mess with a kit especially with MLF. Its been balanced to not need it so make sure you keep your SO2 levels up and you'll be good to go.


----------



## geek (Jun 18, 2013)

you're right, what happened to the latest pics I posted...???


----------



## ibglowin (Jun 18, 2013)

Not sure. Perhaps a server crash and they had to do a restore from an previous image but there has been no mention of it to us Mods if it did happen. I am seeing quite a few of my post as well as others disappearing for about a week now.


----------



## geek (Jun 18, 2013)

I have the pics at home, will change them later today....sigh...

Also, I know we don't mess with kits, is just that I also saw high malo acid in that kit to the right and wondered if something could be done to alleviate it or minimize it without fooling around too much. Already has kmeta, sorbate and clearing agent.


----------



## ibglowin (Jun 18, 2013)

That is exactly why you don't mess with MLF on kits. They have been tartrate stabilized and have higher than normal amounts of malic acid as evidenced by your rather large malic spot for the kit. If you were to do an MLF on one you would end up with a high pH wine which would taste flabby on the tongue and also be microbially unstable.


----------



## geek (Jun 18, 2013)

Here are the updated pics...


----------



## geek (Jul 12, 2013)

Around June 18 I posted the pics above for the first test.
Here are new pics for the test done yesterday/today.

Again, forget the far right one b/c it is a kit that I just wanted to see how much malic acid was/is in it (A LOT).

Do you guys see some progress after 3 weeks?

..


----------



## geek (Jul 12, 2013)

This may be a better pic....


----------



## Turock (Jul 13, 2013)

You have more malic than lactic. Which MLB are you using?


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jul 13, 2013)

The streaks that you see in the "Malic" line, could be just that, streaks, but..... I'm more curious about why you are rushing MLF?
I started my MLF about the same time as you, I believe that you first used the white labs MLB, then added another MLB, possibly VP41, please correct me if I am wrong, my point is, my MLF is still going fairly strong, and even if yours isn't visible, it may still need more time.
The way I look at it is this: 
The wine is going to take at least 1 year or more before it is ready, why rush it? If you leave it for another month (I'll use a month just as an example), what harm is there?
Trust me when I tell you that if you rush things, you most likely will not like the end results as much as if you let the wine take its time, I tried to rush four 6 gallon batches last fall, I jumped the gun and tried all of these new "tweaks" that I had learned, what a mistake, and this was even when some of the more experienced wine makers told me to wait, give it time.... I've been able to recover 2, possibly three batches, I'll start working on the forth batch soon.
That said, the best advice that I can give you is that MLF appears to be done, or just about done, I'd let things sit for another 2 weeks or so, then rack the wine and add meta, get that wine stabilized once MLF is complete.


----------



## geek (Jul 13, 2013)

Not rushing, just looking to see if it has made progress over 3 weeks.
I used Lalvin Bacchus as recommended.

Comparing the 2 tests I can see a little bit of improvement in terms of the malic vanishing slightly. Remember the one to the far right doesn't really count as it is a kit NOT going through MLF (not MLB added).

..


----------



## joeswine (Jul 13, 2013)

*Mlf*

 Geek, I'm going to sound like a downer on this one but and but MLF, isn't really a process that a home winemaker should try you can have a very bad effect on wine if not monitored extremely close ,you could actually take all the flavor of your wine away that's why I don't recommend for the average winemaker .and other folks on this wine form we know a lot more about that than I do ,but for me MLF is not my vocabulary. It is actually designed for fresh grapes, not kits and not juice ,unless you absolutely know what you're doing and never in a kit! Like I said were sound like a downer but that's my view..................jpT


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jul 13, 2013)

Joe,
I have the highest respect for you and your wine making, but I have to respectfully disagree that Malolactic fermentation isn't for the home wine maker, or that it shouldn't be used on juice pails.
You have many more years of experience than me, but I've spoken in depth to a few of the bigger juice pail distributers, and they all recommend mlf on the red wine juice pails.
Heck, I have been to one winery and lhbs thst sells thousands of gallons of wine made from juice pails.
There are a few people that are having issues with mlf, for what easily looks like an inferior mlb was used.
How many people have complained about a wine made from a cheap kit?... tons, no one tells them that they shouldn't make kits anymore, everyone tells them that they got what they paid for, and to buy a top end kit next time.
Its easy to hear everyone talk about mlf and it's benefits, and then try it without researching it, instead of telling people thst as a home wine maker they shouldn't try it, I would rather see people grow with the hobby.
I haven't been around long, and don't claim to know a lot, to date I've made approx 15 batches of wine, numerous fruit wines, meads and hard cider, of those 9 went through mlf, only one was stalled because I used the first mlb I found, white labs, after this, I did alot of research and haven't had any issues with mlf since.
Please don't take this as a "bashing your advice", I feel that a home winemaker can use tools such as mlb.


----------



## joeswine (Jul 13, 2013)

*Mlf*

WHAT . I stated was if you are not a accomplished wine maker than maybe this is something you shouldn't try at this point ,until you get more wine making time under your belt, it's about chemistry and application, and that comes from experience, I personally have had no great experiences with MLF in my wine making history, there are other ways of smoothing out the process,PUMPKINMAN,you and I can always agree to disagree, I know your an accomplished wine maker and that goes without saying, but it my point of view ,for a home winemaker MLF, is something they should deal with when science and taste have evolved to make a decent wine, and to understand the chemistry involve, in that evolution. Starting out ,not so good an idea, the basics are more important...then you can grow. Still love me.


----------



## Pumpkinman (Jul 13, 2013)

Lol....joe, of course we all still love you! 
I appreciate your reply, 
Respectfully, 
Tom


----------



## HangenOn (Jul 14, 2013)

I think any serious winemaker (making dry reds) that wants to move beyond kits needs to get comfortable with MLF. It is as much about stability as it is flavor profile.

It really isn't any more challenging than alcohol fermentation if you select a good MLB. (Like many, I had a bad experience with the liquid culture from White Labs). The hardest part is being patient enough to let it finish.

It is also extremely important not to rely on visual cues but to test for progress and completion.


----------



## joeswine (Jul 14, 2013)

*Need to know*

IT, all goes back to gathering knowledge, which comes with time and good sanitations and chemistry skills, luck doesn't come into the equalization as a rule. Also knowing, not all wines benefit from MLF.THIS once again comes from time /trial and error and patients, at least that's my take on it...............off topic for me.....


----------



## berrycrush (Jul 17, 2013)

Am I reading the same Chromo chart as everyone else? Your "Malbec" shows significant Malic reduction compared with the "Malbec Kit" (unMLFed). Your MLF looks working very well to me.


----------

