# Small Wine Room Project



## AZMDTed

I've decided to move forward with plans for a small 500 bottle, plus about 6 carboys, AC cooled wine storage room in my basement. I was thinking about going entirely passive, but as Mike pointed out a small room AC is cheap to buy and in a properly insulated wine room cheap to operate.

So here's my plan. in a section of unfinished basement that I have that is about 10x19, which includes my geothermal AC/Heat unit, Water Heater, Radon pump, and electrical panels I'm going to build a 8'x5'8" exterior dimension wine room.

Since my electrical wires run under the overhead floor joists and I don't want to move them or block them, I'm going to keep the 'roof' of my room to just underneath them, leaving about an inch gap from the top of my room to the wires. If anyone has a better idea please let me know.

The room will be 2x4 construction for the four walls and ceiling. The floor will left exposed to the concrete basement floor for a little bit of passive cooling assist there.

I'm going to use spray closed cell foam from FoamItGreen.com. They report that it will create an R value of 7 per inch. For my size room and size of the kit I bought that should be enough to give me about R21 in all the walls and the ceiling. Since it's closed foam I won't put in a separate vapor barrier. The door will be a 32 inch pre-hung insulated exterior door.

Cooling will be done by a cheap 5K BTU AC unit. I think I need to choose one with simple fan and cooling knobs as opposed to it's own thermostat. I will run an electric box into the room and plug in an Inkbird ITC-308 controller that will operate an outlet based on my set point temperature and an acceptable range. It will then turn on and off the plug depending upon my settings. For planning purposes I'm thinking of starting with a set point of 60 with a 3 degree range. I'm hoping that with good insulation and a concrete floor 6 feet below grade that the AC won't run too much.

The room will have one ceiling light, probably LED to keep the heat down, with a switch outside the door. I will get a switch with an indicator light on it so that I can see if I forgot to the turn the light off without having to open the door.

Inside I will drywall with Green drywall and then exterior paint. Outside will be regular drywall and interior paint.

I'm planning on a 32" walkway in the room with two Seville 168 wine racks on the right, another on the left, and then shelf units to hold up to six carboys for aging.

Obviously I would like go bigger and fancier, but space limits me to pretty much a purely function wine cellar. I will post pictures as I go along. I hope to start framing this Saturday.

Any thoughts and suggestions are welcome.


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## ibglowin

Looking forward to the pics of the progress. 

Just in case you haven't seen the @Norcal thread for his Garage ColdBox make sure to check out what he did. You may not be able to reach 60F with that unit but you might reach 64-65 without much difficulty.


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## NorCal

Starting in a basement in Maryland gives you a big advantage over a garage in Sacramento. Our summers include plenty of 100+ degree days. I find the AC unit itself runs out of steam around the 60 degree mark. You may need to look into a CootBot for your unit, then it would maintain 55 degrees all day long. Good luck, post lots of pics.


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## AZMDTed

NorCal said:


> Starting in a basement in Maryland gives you a big advantage over a garage in Sacramento. Our summers include plenty of 100+ degree days. I find the AC unit itself runs out of steam around the 60 degree mark. You may need to look into a CootBot for your unit, then it would maintain 55 degrees all day long. Good luck, post lots of pics.



Thanks for your post on the cold room, very informative and helpful to me as I planned this. I suppose a Coolbot is always possible if needed, but instead of $300 I thought I'd give the $38 controller a try. I looked at the Coolbot site and videos and an impressed with their work, but what do you think makes it work down to 55 instead of the 60 that your controller, or possibly wine won't do?


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## Johnd

First let me say how envious of the ease of building a room in basements is, what a great starting point.

Were it me, I'd be concerned about those electrical and water lines being inaccessible above my ceiling, might consider foaming the underside of the floor and your joists and enclosing the lines in an accessible manner in that area. That way you can get to them if you ever need to without having to look at them in your room. 

Might want to check into the pricing of having a professional do your foam work for you. When I did my walls and ceilings a month ago, I priced the kits and did the math based on how many inches of thickness I wanted, the materials alone were more costly than the $ I spent hiring a subcontractor to come in and do the whole closed cell foam job for me. I have no idea of pricing trends in your area, but it worked out that way for me down here in the deep south.

Regarding your cooling, after extensive research, yes, 55 is like the holy grail of wine storage temps. That can be kinda hard with A/C units, and has humidity implications, but regardless of the temps you desire to maintain (I'm speaking about temps below 62 or 63), far more important is the consistency of the temperature, so don't get too worked up over the 55 degree grail. 

Looks like a really cool project, have fun and keep posting those photos!!


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## bkisel

Great project. Good luck with it. Look forward to following the thread - with pictures I hope.

How will the water, coming from the air conditioner, be collected and disposed?


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## ibglowin

Those little AC Units have their own self contained catch pan that collects any condensate on the backside bottom. They do not produce very much in my experience.


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## AZMDTed

Johnd said:


> First let me say how envious of the ease of building a room in basements is, what a great starting point.
> 
> Were it me, I'd be concerned about those electrical and water lines being inaccessible above my ceiling, might consider foaming the underside of the floor and your joists and enclosing the lines in an accessible manner in that area. That way you can get to them if you ever need to without having to look at them in your room.



Thanks John,
I appreciate your posts and follow your project closely, I will try to keep posted on my progress. I'm concerned about those lines too, which is why I'm building my wine room as a box underneath them. I will have a separate ceiling (basically horizontal stud wall) on top of wine room walls which will be drywalled on top (before I raise it) and that top will get to about an inch below the wires. So the wires will still be accessible above the wine room. I hope that makes sense. Without them I would have just boxed off the existing joists and foamed in there and drywalled underneath. But it's too much work trying to reroute them, so I will have a room that doesn't quite reach the joists above.

I agree on the temperature. I'll be very happy with anything in the low-mid 60s and steady year round, especially if the concrete floor will provide the cooling from fall to spring.


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## Johnd

Just from the pic, I don't know what all of that stuff is, so you're certainly a much better judge of that than I, but I wouldn't want to see them if I didn't have to either.

Since you're going that route, and unless there is a reason for the drywall on top other than something to spray foam against, there is another option there, one I used in my room. You could build your walls and ceiling framing and simply pull Tyvek over the top of your ceiling joists and tack it down to the top of your side walls, it'll hold the spray foam no problem. Once dry, the foam installer said I could walk on it, which I won't. Should be a lot easier framing job and no lifting of a heavy drywall ceiling structure to set on top of your walls.


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## AZMDTed

Johnd said:


> Just from the pic, I don't know what all of that stuff is, so you're certainly a much better judge of that than I, but I wouldn't want to see them if I didn't have to either.
> 
> Since you're going that route, and unless there is a reason for the drywall on top other than something to spray foam against, there is another option there, one I used in my room. You could build your walls and ceiling framing and simply pull Tyvek over the top of your ceiling joists and tack it down to the top of your side walls, it'll hold the spray foam no problem. Once dry, the foam installer said I could walk on it, which I won't. Should be a lot easier framing job and no lifting of a heavy drywall ceiling structure to set on top of your walls.



That's a great idea, I'm going to do that. I didn't realize that the foam would stick to Tyvek. That saves one hernia, Thanks.


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## kevinlfifer

Drop ceiling? 

I built in the basement, sectioning off the boiler area with a hollow core bi-fold door. The boiler area is always around 80f, the wine area around 62f (68f when it's really cold out and the boiler runs a lot). It has the floor and 2 walls that are cooling. I'm not sure the a/c unit is necessary. 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46912

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48048

My links to what I did. 

If you get any ideas from what I did I'll be proud.


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## AZMDTed

kevinlfifer said:


> Drop ceiling?
> 
> I built in the basement, sectioning off the boiler area with a hollow core bi-fold door. The boiler area is always around 80f, the wine area around 62f (68f when it's really cold out and the boiler runs a lot). It has the floor and 2 walls that are cooling. I'm not sure the a/c unit is necessary.
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46912
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48048
> 
> My links to what I did.
> 
> If you get any ideas from what I did I'll be proud.



That's some beautiful work, well done. Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, I think I'm in a warmer area and I wish that I had two walls to put this room against, but I've only got one to work with. That's why I'm not sure that a wholly passive system would work well enough. The AC and controller are less than $200 and I think that's cheap insurance to build in. But thanks for sharing. Your wine racks from the trees are awesome.


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## AZMDTed

Things are moving.  I've got the basement cleaned out. I have a lot of sorting and soul searching to do because there will no longer be space to put most of this back after the wine room is done.

Second pic is after it was cleared out, and the third pic is a full size floor mock up I did. This let my wife choose where in the room it's going to go. Based on this I've chopped 3 inches off of the length to give me just a bit more room to get behind it as well as to make the door more comfortable to open.

I've already moved the far light which would have interfered with the room.

Framing materials and sheetrock are on hand. Time to start framing. I'll get two walls finished today and then do the walls with the door and AC tomorrow. For the 'roof' I decided to back it with 1/2 rigid foam board. I couldn't get a small piece of Tyvek, and the foam will give me another 3 on my R value. 

By tomorrow the framing should be all in place, then it's wiring it up, putting on the exterior side sheet rock and then spraying the foam in. I should have that all done by Monday.

I figure that if I ever sell this house to a non-wine person then I can always show them that my temperature controller controls for both heat and cold. If they don't get it by then I will tell them that if they swap out the AC for a heater and put a daylight grow bulb in they can have the nicest indoor green house around for whatever medicinal herbs they want.


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## AZMDTed

I've got the four walls, and the ceiling panels framed in. The ceiling is on the floor. I covered it in half inch foam board. This will give me a backer board to spray the foam on later, plus an extra R3 of insulation. Plus, it let me square up the ceiling frame which will help square up the the walls when I set it on top and start tying it all together. 

Lunch time now. Then it will be time to see if all my parts fit together. Then on to wiring.


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## AZMDTed

Fits like a glove, not OJs glove, a well fit glove.


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## AZMDTed

It's coming along. Wiring is roughed in and exterior Sheetrock is attached. Next step is the spray in foam. I need to study the application videos a bit before I try that. Hopefully it will be up before dinner.


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## NorCal

Moving right along!


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## AZMDTed

Busy weekend here. I was able to get the foam sprayed. Overall I'm pleased with the job, but there's obviously a learning curve and the product is just too expensive to learn on. If I were to do this over, I would just get sheets of 2" and 1" closed foam, cut them on the table saw, and seal the seams with cans of expanding foam. Though there's no denying that the stuff I put up looks like it has formed a good barrier and will meet my needs but I'm not sure that it's any better than cutting sheets for half the price. If you have a big enough project I would certainly recommend hiring a pro over doing it yourself.

I've got some cleaning up to do on the foam, then it's installing the interior drywall, and getting some mud going on it. Hopefully I'll be painting by next weekend. Then hang the door, add some trim, put in the AC and see if this thing is going to work.


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## AZMDTed

And in my free time today I racked my Sonoma Dry Creek Chardonnay from my Vadai and then moved a Barossa Valley Shiraz into it. I knew there was some reason why I was building this silly thing


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## Johnd

AZMDTed said:


> Busy weekend here. I was able to get the foam sprayed. Overall I'm pleased with the job, but there's obviously a learning curve and the product is just too expensive to learn on. If I were to do this over, I would just get sheets of 2" and 1" closed foam, cut them on the table saw, and seal the seams with cans of expanding foam. Though there's no denying that the stuff I put up looks like it has formed a good barrier and will meet my needs but I'm not sure that it's any better than cutting sheets for half the price. If you have a big enough project I would certainly recommend hiring a pro over doing it yourself.
> 
> I've got some cleaning up to do on the foam, then it's installing the interior drywall, and getting some mud going on it. Hopefully I'll be painting by next weekend. Then hang the door, add some trim, put in the AC and see if this thing is going to work.



Depending on what insulation boards you would choose to buy, the closed cell foam has an r value one third to twice the boards, plus you have a real solid moisture barrier. Hopefully, once you forget about what a messy, costly, PIA it was to install, you'll be glad it's there.


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## Mismost

another great feature of foam is seals all the cracks which will keep your cold air in there.

A little late but, the more liquid/mass you have in there the more stable the temps will be...so more bottles, carboys, water jugs, trash cans...once that mass stabilizes the temps will be very steady. I would add foam board on the door too.


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## AZMDTed

Johnd said:


> Hopefully, once you forget about what a messy, costly, PIA it was to install, you'll be glad it's there.



John, you captured my thoughts exactly. Plus I'll add one, being dressed up in a full Tyvek suit, goggles, mask, gloves and with the heat from the foam reactions plus our humidity yesterday it felt like I was spraying in a steam bath dark cave. That didn't help me or my attitude much as I was doing it. 

I think my biggest lesson learned was that I moved too fast with the fan tip, but I couldn't see well enough to know that I wasn't getting the coverage I should have put down. Live and learn.


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## AZMDTed

Mismost said:


> another great feature of foam is seals all the cracks which will keep your cold air in there.
> 
> A little late but, the more liquid/mass you have in there the more stable the temps will be...so more bottles, carboys, water jugs, trash cans...once that mass stabilizes the temps will be very steady. I would add foam board on the door too.



I think the sealing feature of spray foam is the biggest advantage. Aside from around the AC there shouldn't be any air leaks. And as you say, once I get the thermal mass of wine in there the temp should stay quite steady.

I'll be using an exterior insulated door and once I get it in I'll check my clearances and probably add an inch or two of foam board to the inside face. But I'll think about that at the make it pretty stage of the project, next week.

About the only uncertainty for me know is how to make the 43 year old basement floor look better without using a floor covering since I'm hoping for the concrete to provide the cooling effect for most of the year. Time to study up on concrete paint and hope I don't need to scrub the floor with muriatic acid first.


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## AZMDTed

Another benefit of the room, I know where I'm going to go when we get our next Tornado Warning. Hopefully it will have plenty of wine in it by then.


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## Johnd

AZMDTed said:


> I think the sealing feature of spray foam is the biggest advantage. Aside from around the AC there shouldn't be any air leaks. And as you say, once I get the thermal mass of wine in there the temp should stay quite steady.
> 
> I'll be using an exterior insulated door and once I get it in I'll check my clearances and probably add an inch or two of foam board to the inside face. But I'll think about that at the make it pretty stage of the project, next week.
> 
> About the only uncertainty for me know is how to make the 43 year old basement floor look better without using a floor covering since I'm hoping for the concrete to provide the cooling effect for most of the year. Time to study up on concrete paint and hope I don't need to scrub the floor with muriatic acid first.



As a commercial contractor, we do a lot of retail work and in that work, lots of polished concrete floors. You'd be amazed how much an old concrete floor can be polished and sealed to look really good. It's probably not a DIY project, but perhaps,you could consider it.........


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## AZMDTed

I've completed my third coat of mud on the room, so now I wait. Hopefully tomorrow I can sand, prime and paint. I really want to get to putting the door on and AC unit in and seeing what happens. Soon.

While waiting for the mud to dry today I went ahead and modified the AC unit. Pic one is the front of the AC as it looks out of the box. I removed the two knobs and two screws holding the front of the unit on. Pic two shows the inside. Notice the wire going across. If my information is correct that is a temperature sensitive probe that will shut down the AC when the room hits somewhere in the low 60s. That's more than fine, but I want better control and if the AC doesn't run too much I may take her down to the promised land of 55.

I didn't want to remove the temperature sensor completely, just in case I'm wrong and need to put it back in place. So I unhooked it from the front fins (Pic 3) and repositioned it along the outside of the AC unit (Pic 4) taking advantage of a space in the frame where I can put the front on and not crimp the wire. As you can see I laid it across the left side of the chassis and then taped in place. 

The theory for doing this is that by putting the probe outside the room the temp will never get cold enough for the switch to shut down the AC. Now I can plug the AC into my controller and use it to control the power to the unit. Since the AC will be, hopefully, in an always on mode then my controller will provide power to the AC when the temp is higher than my set range.

We shall see.


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## ibglowin

I had a problem with my unit freezing up and not cooling properly a while back. The fix was to basically do what you just did.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50193


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## AZMDTed

Mike, thanks for sharing that. Good to have confirmation that this is the way to work it. Fortunately my probe wire is plenty long to get it out of the way.


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## AZMDTed

Yesterday I got the drywall plaster sanded and cleaned up. Primed the room (first time using drywall primer, what great stuff that is). Then painted inside and out. Hook up the electrical, put the door on, installed the AC shelf and put the AC in. I tentatively fired it up just to make sure it's all working and the controller works well and the AC hums like a champ. Now I'm letting it air out for a couple days.

Next will be a test to see how long it takes to go from ambient to 65, then 60, and hopefully 55. Next phase of the test is to see how long it will hold that temp before the AC kicks in again. Of course the holding time should be much better once I get the wine moved in.

All that's left is trimming and cleaning up. Should be ready for wine by the weekend. As I said at the beginning, this isn't a fancy one and isn't meant to be. Just a functional walk in wine cooler that could hold 800 or so bottles and my wine barrel. I would love to do something like John is doing, he's doing some awesome work. But when you don't have the space you don't have the space. So it's industrial racks for me to maximize bottle count. 

I hope this helps anyone else who is thinking of such a project. Final pics once I trim it and clean it up.


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## swhitsit

I did something like this in my basement, converting a 12 x 15 storage closet / sump pump room into my micro winery. You can see a walk through at https://youtu.be/O8PX3WJkFpg. I live in IL with 100 degree summers, but the basement is always 65 - 68 degrees without much need for AC. 

My fermenters are a combination of 32 gallon Speidel, 18 gallon Tuff Tank, and some glass 5-6 gallon carboys. I can easily fit 250 gallons of fermenting capacity because I built up a top shelf that is tall enough to stack the 32 gallon fermenters above each other (makes gravity racking really easy). I can also fit 100 gallons under the stairwell pretty easily.

I used some nice vinyl sheet for flooring, which is pretty soft and super easy to clean. I'm way behind on my TTB license and all that, so for now I'm just giving wine away and drinking way to much


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## AZMDTed

I ran a cooling test this evening. Ambient started at 70.4. It took 16 minutes to get to 60, and another 10 minutes to hit 55. Great to know that 55 is possible, but I will decide later if 55 or 60 is going to be my long term temp. 55 would probably require me to run the AC a bit in winter where 60 may not. Not sure if the difference is significant for aging as much as constancy throughout the year. 

But that's for later. Right now I'm just happy that it's all working as planned.


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## Johnd

AZMDTed said:


> I ran a cooling test this evening. Ambient started at 70.4. It took 16 minutes to get to 60, and another 10 minutes to hit 55. Great to know that 55 is possible, but I will decide later if 55 or 60 is going to be my long term temp. 55 would probably require me to run the AC a bit in winter where 60 may not. Not sure if the difference is significant for aging as much as constancy throughout the year.
> 
> But that's for later. Right now I'm just happy that it's all working as planned.



Glad to hear she went right down there! I was in the same place with my refrig. system, finally settled on 60, both for electricity cost as well as humidity. Room stays right around 70% at 60.


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## AZMDTed

Last 'construction' piece was framing in and insulating the AC unit. I used window casing to make a slightly larger frame, rimmed the inside with foam tape for a friction fit and it fits perfectly. Then I filled the gaps with 2 layers of pipe insulation foam and she's ready for the racks and wine.

I made the window gap big on purpose in case I ever need to replace the unit.


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## AZMDTed

My wine room is finished. This weekend I built a shelf unit for my barrel and carboys and that finishes the job. Overall, I’m very pleased with it. The air conditioning and the controller seem to be working well and are maintaining a good temperature with only a few minutes an hour of run time. The Seville Wine Racks are a great way to store a lot of wine in a small space. My wooden bottle rack let’s me highlight those bottles I want to see the labels on and are in the queue for drinking. I’m also very happy with the shelves I build for my carboys. They can hold six, which means somewhere around 360 pounds. That’s something I don’t want to have come crashing down so I over designed it and like how it turned out. This room will also change how I make my wine. Now, as soon as I get them properly degassed and cleared I can get the carboys into the cooler while they await their turn in the Vadai rather than spending a year in the basement under airlock. But degassing is another story.

Since these threads stick around for a while I figure somebody may have a similar notion down the road. If you do, here is some information about the project.

The finished room is 5’ x 7’ inside, 2x4 construction on five sides, open concrete basement for thermal cooling on the floor. Insulation was spray closed cell foam. Mold resistant green board inside. An LED light with about 120W of light for 43W. Cheap 5K BTU window air conditioner, modified to avoid it turning itself off at cool temps, and controlled by a temperature controller that lets me set the target temperature and the number of degrees leeway I want it to have before it kicks on again. I added an indoor/outdoor thermometer by the door to keep me from going in and checking it all the time. I figure that this can hold about 500 bottles and 6 carboys.

The total cost was about $2,000. Insulation was the largest expense at $750. Aside from the controller, thermometer and Insulation kit, everything was purchased at Lowes or Home Depot. Here’s a gross breakdown:

AC: $135
Controller: $ 40
Insulation Kit: $750
30” Ex Door: $175
Lumber, drywall, electrical, paint etc:	$600
2 Seville Racks: $200
Wood for carboy shelf:	$100

The project took 4 weekends, and two weeks of evening work and I did it alone. For now, about the only change I would make would be to look harder to get a cost estimate from a professional insulation company. I didn’t do it this time because I was in hurry to get it done and didn’t know when I’d be ready for it and I thought I could do it well enough with a kit. I did an okay job, but I think a pro would do it much better, though I don’t know the cost and how many would do such a small project. Other than that I’m pleased with it. It’s certainly isn’t a showcase piece, but it’s functional and suits my space. If things ever change, the room becomes: 1., Tornado Shelter, 2., walk in closet, 3., indoor green house, 4., fancy indoor storage shed. Multipurpose 

I hope this helps someone who was wondering about their options for storing wine.


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## jsbeckton

I think we are using the same AC unit. I notice that while mine doesn't drip it does seem to collect water in the bottom of the pan and the fan seems to splash it a bit when it first comes on but nothing ever splashes out. Not sure if this is ok or not. Experienced anything similar?


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## AZMDTed

I haven't noticed that, but mine's also in a place I don't hang around much. I also have my basement dehumidifier just a couple feet away from it so I imagine that it keeps the water in the tray pretty controlled.


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## Mismost

AZMBTed...this has flung a urge on me. My "winery" is taking over my office space! I have an area attached to my shop that I could convert...think I would wind up with an area roughly 12 wide x 6 deep...maybe 8' if my wife's much loved riding mower will still fit! Part of me says do it now...the other part says wait until you retire and just convert the office...which is right next to a bathroom and I could have hot/cold water too.

Have great area upstairs that already has an A/C installed...I just don't want to be humping stuff up and down stairs in my old age!


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## AZMDTed

Mismost said:


> AZMBTed...this has flung a urge on me. My "winery" is taking over my office space! I have an area attached to my shop that I could convert...think I would wind up with an area roughly 12 wide x 6 deep...maybe 8' if my wife's much loved riding mower will still fit! Part of me says do it now...the other part says wait until you retire and just convert the office...which is right next to a bathroom and I could have hot/cold water too.
> 
> Have great area upstairs that already has an A/C installed...I just don't want to be humping stuff up and down stairs in my old age!



I'm glad it gave you some ideas. Good luck deciding which way you want to go. I certainly agree that lugging carboys up and down stairs is not a pleasant thought, especially as we get older. 6x8 would be a great size. You could even have fancy display wall in a room that size. 

Thinking about it and planning is half the fun. 

Ted


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## AZMDTed

Just an update on AC electrical costs. My cellar has about 300 bottles in it now along with 2 23L Vadai's and 2 6 gallon carboys. The basement temp is staying about 70 and 57% humidity. I have the cellar AC set at 59 with a 3 degree variance, so at 62 the AC comes on until the room gets back to 59. I also put in an ultrasonic humidifier, which is keeping the room at 60% humidity.

The AC runs about 3 minutes every 65 minutes. This model runs at 500W, so by my calculations with electrical and distribution costs of $.13/KW I calculate that my AC is using about $.07 in electricity a day. This is my early fall cost.

My late summer cost was about $.13 a day. The basement temp was about 76 degrees then. Also, with the AC running more in the summer my humidifier was keeping it at 53%. With less AC time now the humidity is able to build up more and less is drawn out in the few minutes the AC runs.

I'm expecting my winter costs to drop below $.05.

So far I'm very happy with the cellar and haven't thought of anything I would change in the design.


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## AZMDTed

I'm 14 months into my wine cellar and I wouldn't change a thing. The window AC unit and Inkbird are a fantastic combination. I've got over 400 bottles in it now along with 2 full vadai 23L barrels and 5 carboys. 

My wine making spree of the last 2 years has paid off and I'm at the point where I'm starting to open my daily drinkers with 18-21 months of age on them. I've got to say, something magical seems to happen to wine at that age. At least for me that's where my Eclipse Reds really change and take on a full fledge wine taste and feel, and even a decent bit of nose.

If your cellaring needs are anything like mine, I heartily recommend a small window AC unit and inkbird.


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## ibglowin

Ted,

Do you still have bare concrete flooring in your cellar?


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## AZMDTed

ibglowin said:


> Ted,
> 
> Do you still have bare concrete flooring in your cellar?



Yes I do, and aside from you maybe jinxing me now I've never had an issue 

I've kept them bare for the cooling effect of the earth underneath. In winter time the AC barely runs.

My carboys that don't fit on my shelves are on wooden pallets off the floor. I imagine I may change my priorities once I drop or bottle or split a carboy, but so far so good. 

As a side benefit, having a bare floor allows me to toss in a couple cups of water if I'm going to be away for a while and want to add to the humidity.

I will admit though that some simple laminate flooring would look mighty nice in there.


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## ibglowin

There is an old saying that there are two types of winemakers. Those that have dropped a full carboy to the ground and those who someday will....... 

I was going to suggest a small insurance policy where needed in case a bottle slips out of the rack and crashes to the floor or worse a full carboy.......











AZMDTed said:


> Yes I do, and aside from you maybe jinxing me now I've never had an issue


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## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> There is an old saying that there are two types of winemakers. Those that have dropped a full carboy to the ground and those who someday will.......
> 
> I was going to suggest a small insurance policy where needed in case a bottle slips out of the rack and crashes to the floor or worse a full carboy.......



Been meaning to do that in my winery. To date, I've had only one mishap, which involved an empty bottle falling from the workbench to the floor (after I clumsily knocked it over). Worst part: At the end of what seemed to be a slow motion descent, the bottle actually bounced. For a very brief moment, I thought: 'wow, dodged a bullet there'. The bottle didn't fare so well on the second impact - glass everywhere.


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## 4score

Wish I had my entire garage floor (ie - bottling room) covered in that material!

These stacks get me nervous.


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## toneill

Nice work AZMDTed! I'm in the process of expanding my wine operation to a new storage room, 12'X13', finished room in the basement. I'm shopping for a cooler and was looking at the N'Finity 4200 (1K Cubic Ft Capacity). I'm curious if anyone has any experience with this brand? Choose it for the warranty. I like what you and others have done with the air conditioner but I was thinking of going the cooler route for size and humidity reasons. Thoughts? At $1650 am I wasting my money? Thanks.


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## Ajmassa

..........


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## Rmarr

AZMDTed said:


> My wine room is finished. This weekend I built a shelf unit for my barrel and carboys and that finishes the job. Overall, I’m very pleased with it. The air conditioning and the controller seem to be working well and are maintaining a good temperature with only a few minutes an hour of run time. The Seville Wine Racks are a great way to store a lot of wine in a small space. My wooden bottle rack let’s me highlight those bottles I want to see the labels on and are in the queue for drinking. I’m also very happy with the shelves I build for my carboys. They can hold six, which means somewhere around 360 pounds. That’s something I don’t want to have come crashing down so I over designed it and like how it turned out. This room will also change how I make my wine. Now, as soon as I get them properly degassed and cleared I can get the carboys into the cooler while they await their turn in the Vadai rather than spending a year in the basement under airlock. But degassing is another story.
> 
> Since these threads stick around for a while I figure somebody may have a similar notion down the road. If you do, here is some information about the project.
> 
> The finished room is 5’ x 7’ inside, 2x4 construction on five sides, open concrete basement for thermal cooling on the floor. Insulation was spray closed cell foam. Mold resistant green board inside. An LED light with about 120W of light for 43W. Cheap 5K BTU window air conditioner, modified to avoid it turning itself off at cool temps, and controlled by a temperature controller that lets me set the target temperature and the number of degrees leeway I want it to have before it kicks on again. I added an indoor/outdoor thermometer by the door to keep me from going in and checking it all the time. I figure that this can hold about 500 bottles and 6 carboys.
> 
> The total cost was about $2,000. Insulation was the largest expense at $750. Aside from the controller, thermometer and Insulation kit, everything was purchased at Lowes or Home Depot. Here’s a gross breakdown:
> 
> AC: $135
> Controller: $ 40
> Insulation Kit: $750
> 30” Ex Door: $175
> Lumber, drywall, electrical, paint etc: $600
> 2 Seville Racks: $200
> Wood for carboy shelf: $100
> 
> The project took 4 weekends, and two weeks of evening work and I did it alone. For now, about the only change I would make would be to look harder to get a cost estimate from a professional insulation company. I didn’t do it this time because I was in hurry to get it done and didn’t know when I’d be ready for it and I thought I could do it well enough with a kit. I did an okay job, but I think a pro would do it much better, though I don’t know the cost and how many would do such a small project. Other than that I’m pleased with it. It’s certainly isn’t a showcase piece, but it’s functional and suits my space. If things ever change, the room becomes: 1., Tornado Shelter, 2., walk in closet, 3., indoor green house, 4., fancy indoor storage shed. Multipurpose
> 
> I hope this helps someone who was wondering about their options for storing wine.
> 
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Wow what an amazing room. I’m currently building mine now and was wondering if you installed any vents to transfer the air pressure from you cooling unit? I was considering putting one or two in to help depressorize the room. I personally wraped my room in 6mil vapor and insulated with Roxul R23 in wall and R30 in ceiling. Going to be using my temp controller just like you did. Thanks for sharing all you hard work!


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## stickman

toneill said:


> Nice work AZMDTed! I'm in the process of expanding my wine operation to a new storage room, 12'X13', finished room in the basement. I'm shopping for a cooler and was looking at the N'Finity 4200 (1K Cubic Ft Capacity). I'm curious if anyone has any experience with this brand? Choose it for the warranty. I like what you and others have done with the air conditioner but I was thinking of going the cooler route for size and humidity reasons. Thoughts? At $1650 am I wasting my money? Thanks.




The N'Finity looks like a re-branded Cellarcool unit, they get decent reviews, but I haven't had a chance to use my Cellarcool long term. I'm still using a 16 year old Vintage Keeper that wont quit, but I figure it could happen at any time, so when a friend offered a Cellarcool CX4400 for $200, I couldn't pass it up. I offered more money and he wouldn't take it, he got it from an estate sale, it had been installed, but never used. I tested it, and it works fine, so now it sits on the floor just waiting to be put to use. The Danfoss compressor in the Vintage Keeper just wont die, I'm not complaining.........


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## AZMDTed

Rmarr said:


> Wow what an amazing room. I’m currently building mine now and was wondering if you installed any vents to transfer the air pressure from you cooling unit? I was considering putting one or two in to help depressorize the room. I personally wraped my room in 6mil vapor and insulated with Roxul R23 in wall and R30 in ceiling. Going to be using my temp controller just like you did. Thanks for sharing all you hard work!



Thanks. I didn’t put any vents in. The AC runs such a short period of time that I don’t believe it builds up any pressure issues. Almost 2 years now and it’s all still working great. The small room humidifier does a good job keeping the humidity up about 70 percent, and the room stays a fairly constant 59 degrees.


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## wrongway

AZMDTed

What a nice project!! Would like to do the same myself! I do have one question though. If 500 bottle is small, What would a large one be?


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## AZMDTed

wrongway said:


> AZMDTed
> 
> What a nice project!! Would like to do the same myself! I do have one question though. If 500 bottle is small, What would a large one be?



Thanks, as to your question, a large, and beautiful, one would be what @Johnd built.


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## Rmarr

AZMDTed said:


> Thanks. I didn’t put any vents in. The AC runs such a short period of time that I don’t believe it builds up any pressure issues. Almost 2 years now and it’s all still working great. The small room humidifier does a good job keeping the humidity up about 70 percent, and the room stays a fairly constant 59 degrees.


@AZMDTed your project inspired me to finish mine. I used a ink bird controler to keep the AC pumping and its maintaining 58 now. I also decided not to add vents like I ask you about. I built the floor to ceiling racks. May add more later. What you cant see is my 6x24 bottle cubes behind the picture. Thanks for posting your project and inspiring me.


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## AZMDTed

Rmarr said:


> @AZMDTed your project inspired me to finish mine. I used a ink bird controler to keep the AC pumping and its maintaining 58 now. I also decided not to add vents like I ask you about. I built the floor to ceiling racks. May add more later. What you cant see is my 6x24 bottle cubes behind the picture. Thanks for posting your project and inspiring me.



That looks great, well done. I've learned much from others here and posted this thread as payback for that assistance. I'm glad you found it inspiring.


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## Tom Martin

Rmarr said:


> @AZMDTed your project inspired me to finish mine. I used a ink bird controler to keep the AC pumping and its maintaining 58 now. I also decided not to add vents like I ask you about. I built the floor to ceiling racks. May add more later. What you cant see is my 6x24 bottle cubes behind the picture. Thanks for posting your project and inspiring me.



Your racks are really nice that is what I would like to build, where did you find the plans to build your racks? What kind of wood did you use?


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## Tom Martin

AZMDTed, your room is great I am looking to finish 1/2 of my basement in the next year and I have been thinking of a wine cellar type room in the north east corner. I am not sure if cooling will be needed or not. My basement is fully under ground the corner I am building in will have 2 bare concrete walls where there is no sun contact.


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## AZMDTed

Tom Martin said:


> AZMDTed, your room is great I am looking to finish 1/2 of my basement in the next year and I have been thinking of a wine cellar type room in the north east corner. I am not sure if cooling will be needed or not. My basement is fully under ground the corner I am building in will have 2 bare concrete walls where there is no sun contact.



Tom,

You may not need AC in your condition. Also consider the floor and whether it is close enough to a heated space to transfer that heat into your room. In my case I live on a slope so the wine room area of my basement is mostly underground, but nearby the other half of the space is my garage and they share the same slab. The warmth of the garage concrete is enough to effect the concrete in the cellar.

If you go passive, this book is considered the best statement on how to do it:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006YRFBC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Have fun.


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## AZMDTed

If that link doesn't work, here's a better one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006YRFBC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I tried to edit the above post twice and it's not taking the change.

EDIT, interesting, the link I'm posting gets changed as soon as I hit save or post. The book is: 

How and Why to Build a Passive Wine Cellar: and Gold's Guide to Wine Tasting and Cellaring


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## Tom Martin

AZMDTed said:


> Tom,
> 
> You may not need AC in your condition. Also consider the floor and whether it is close enough to a heated space to transfer that heat into your room. In my case I live on a slope so the wine room area of my basement is mostly underground, but nearby the other half of the space is my garage and they share the same slab. The warmth of the garage concrete is enough to effect the concrete in the cellar.
> 
> If you go passive, this book is considered the best statement on how to do it:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006YRFBC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> Have fun.



I will look at that book. 
My plan was to leave the bare concrete floor and remove the insulation so two of the walls will be bare concrete walls. I was planing on insulating the walls between the cellar and basement. My basement is fully under ground with about a 9 ft ceiling 104".
My only issue is my brew area is in the opposite corner but that's were the drain and water heater are located. My heater is on the 2nd story so there is not heat from that in the basement, the closest heater vent is 15 ft from where I am locating the cellar.


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## Rmarr

Tom Martin said:


> Your racks are really nice that is what I would like to build, where did you find the plans to build your racks? What kind of wood did you use?


Thank you, I built them out of rough cut cedar, however left them to air dry for over a year. I didnt want that cedar smell in my cellar. And happy to say its not there. I would think pine or maple would make an excellent choice. But giving my budget at the time milling my rough cut cedar was they cheaper option. I did leave it all unfinished as I prefer the rustic feel. I got my plans from a book called “home built winery” by steve hughes. He has excellent ideas but some basic dimensions are missing. Have to interperate alot of things. Hope this helps you.


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