# WATER TOP OFF?



## Gerry Congleton (Feb 16, 2021)

I think I have had some mixed messages about topping off with water, if I do use water does the kind of water make a difference? I have just read that it is best to use spring water without any additives.
I have used water to top off the beginning fermentation and ended up with a very weak end result. With 1 year aging it is better, but still disappointing.
Can one age a kit wine too long and have a spoiled result?


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## Johnd (Feb 16, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> I think I have had some mixed messages about topping off with water, if I do use water does the kind of water make a difference? I have just read that it is best to use spring water without any additives.
> I have used water to top off the beginning fermentation and ended up with a very weak end result. With 1 year aging it is better, but still disappointing.
> Can one age a kit wine too long and have a spoiled result?



When you are mixing your kit / concentrated juice up to the proper volume, you add water to do that, prior to fermentation. The kind of water is quite debated, but safe to say, if it tastes good to drink, it's OK to mix up your kit with. 

As far as topping up after fermentation, my recommendation would be that you don't use water for this purpose, instead use a like wine to do your topping up. Compared to wine from grapes, kits struggle to live up to the body, aroma, and flavor, why add challenge to an already challenging situation? Most on this forum are of like mind, but not 100% agreement. In the end, the choice is yours, you are the winemaker.


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## Gerry Congleton (Feb 16, 2021)

Thank you for the information. I was leaning that way and needed some confirmation.
I did a five gallon kit last year and gave most of it away to see what friends thought of it. Generally, I received positive responses. I just opened a bottle for myself after aging 17 months and thought it had improved, still not much body.
After talking to the owner of the local winemaking supply shop he told me that kits are not known for a lot of body and flavor.
I usually buy Menage a Trois, Decadence, Cabernet Sauvignon retail which is something I wish I could duplicate. Not with a kit I guess.
Maybe there is some tweaking I could try.
Thanks again!!


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## hounddawg (Feb 16, 2021)

just wondering ,, could you use 2 kits ,, say 2- 5 gal kits,, but only with 7 & 1/2 gal water, 
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (Feb 17, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> Maybe there is some tweaking I could try.


Read the Kit Wine forum, especially *this thread*. There's a lot of good tips for tweaking.

I have made all grades of kits, but in general, the higher priced kits produce a better results (higher juice/concentrate ratio), although I've made low end kits from reputable vendors (WinExport, RJ Spagnols) that came out really well. Read the kit description and look for heavier wines. For more body? You can add raisins, dried elderberries (common in red kits in the 90's), oak adjuncts, etc. Kits with skin packs tend to have more body, and I searched -- you can buy skins.

One thing that can be done with all wines is adding glycerin at bottling time. I purchase glycerin for liqueurs, and tested it with my 2019 wines. 1 oz/gallon makes a tremendous improvement in mouth feel.



hounddawg said:


> just wondering ,, could you use 2 kits ,, say 2- 5 gal kits,, but only with 7 & 1/2 gal water,


Kits are designed to be diluted to a specific volume -- changing that throws off the sugar, acid, etc. For years I diluted kits to a lesser volume, but I've changed my mind on that. IMO it's making more sense to add adjuncts to increase body..


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## Darkroom (Feb 17, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> For more body? You can add raisins, dried elderberries (common in red kits in the 90's), oak adjuncts, etc. Kits with skin packs tend to have more body, and I searched -- you can buy skins.



I agree that skins are a great addition. I have looked for grape skins to purchase without much luck. What sources have you found.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 17, 2021)

Darkroom said:


> I agree that skins are a great addition. I have looked for grape skins to purchase without much luck. What sources have you found.


I searched on "wine grape skin" and *found this*.

There is also a *grape skin extract* that is basically food coloring.


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## Darkroom (Feb 17, 2021)

Thanks, I have seen that Brewers Direct site but that product only ships out of Canada. It cost $41 to ship a 4kg container that sells for $24.95 I have been unable to locate any suppliers in USA that sell that product or anything similar.


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## hounddawg (Feb 17, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Read the Kit Wine forum, especially *this thread*. There's a lot of good tips for tweaking.
> 
> I have made all grades of kits, but in general, the higher priced kits produce a better results (higher juice/concentrate ratio), although I've made low end kits from reputable vendors (WinExport, RJ Spagnols) that came out really well. Read the kit description and look for heavier wines. For more body? You can add raisins, dried elderberries (common in red kits in the 90's), oak adjuncts, etc. Kits with skin packs tend to have more body, and I searched -- you can buy skins.
> 
> ...


never made a kit, but that makes since, i mostly do from scratch and a little from concentrates, 
Dawg


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## Bossbaby (Feb 17, 2021)

I have always made 5 gal batches from a 6 gal kit and you end up with more flavorful wine.


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## hounddawg (Feb 17, 2021)

Bossbaby said:


> I have always made 5 gal batches from a 6 gal kit and you end up with more flavorful wine.


i do the same with fruits and berries. and concentrates as well
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (Feb 18, 2021)

Bossbaby said:


> I have always made 5 gal batches from a 6 gal kit and you end up with more flavorful wine.


I've started a lot of 23 liter batches with 20 to 22 liter initial volume. In the past it worked fine, but more recently I have 2 reds that are overly acidic, out of balance. I attribute this to the kits being well balanced for a 23 liter initial volume, so under dilution pushed the TA too high. 

If a kit is balanced for a TA at the low end of the range for reds, under dilution kicks up the TA, but still within the normal range for reds. OTOH, if the TA is at the top end of the range, under dilution pushes it over the top. This is what I suspect is the situation with my last couple of kits.

I read through my notes on the kits I made 15-20 years ago. IMO the quality of kits has improved tremendously over time. A major problem I had years ago was the initial SG was always lower than specified in the kit instructions. I got a good SG only by diluting to a lesser volume. In recent kits the SG was good.

If those recent kits I made are now the norm, then I want to use means other than under dilution to improve body and flavor. Food for thought.


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## Chuck E (Feb 18, 2021)

Darkroom said:


> Thanks, I have seen that Brewers Direct site but that product only ships out of Canada. It cost $41 to ship a 4kg container that sells for $24.95 I have been unable to locate any suppliers in USA that sell that product or anything similar.



Try here. Natural Grapes for Winemaking


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 2, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> I think I have had some mixed messages about topping off with water, if I do use water does the kind of water make a difference? I have just read that it is best to use spring water without any additives.
> I have used water to top off the beginning fermentation and ended up with a very weak end result. With 1 year aging it is better, but still disappointing.
> Can one age a kit wine too long and have a spoiled result?





Gerry Congleton said:


> Thank you for the information. I was leaning that way and needed some confirmation.
> I did a five gallon kit last year and gave most of it away to see what friends thought of it. Generally, I received positive responses. I just opened a bottle for myself after aging 17 months and thought it had improved, still not much body.
> After talking to the owner of the local winemaking supply shop he told me that kits are not known for a lot of body and flavor.
> I usually buy Menage a Trois, Decadence, Cabernet Sauvignon retail which is something I wish I could duplicate. Not with a kit I guess.
> ...


04/02/2021 - bottled my second batch of Cab. Sauvignon. That I did in December of 2020. Today, about three months later it tastes worse than when I bottled it (very weak). I opened a bottle today and it is still weak and beginning to sour. I want to start a third batch, but I'm wondering what I am doing wrong. Too much water to top off, irregular temperature level, not enough fermentation???? 
To help with the quality of the batch can I add something to the carboy before I begin the aging process?


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 3, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> 04/02/2021 - bottled my second batch of Cab. Sauvignon. That I did in December of 2020. Today, about three months later it tastes worse than when I bottled it (very weak). I opened a bottle today and it is still weak and beginning to sour. I want to start a third batch, but I'm wondering what I am doing wrong. Too much water to top off, irregular temperature level, not enough fermentation????
> To help with the quality of the batch can I add something to the carboy before I begin the aging process?


The word sour means to me that there is a lot of acid. The normal cause of this would be an Acetobacter infection producing vinegar. This shouldn’t happen if the ullage was low and the cork was tight since this organism needs oxygen to live.
An oxidation reaction can produce acetaldehyde which at low levels I would describe as apricot/ fruity/ sharp but interesting and at high levels I would describe as a burn in the back of the throat. 
For weakness I would go back to the options @winemaker81 listed. In a bottle you will have oxidation chemistry, the end of which is a brown color and loss of fruity aroma. You might ask your store if they have a product like SINATIN 17: liquid oak extract and test a drop of it in a glass of the present batch to guesstimate if oak is moving in a flavor direction you like. Another direction is finishing tannins as described in a Scott Labs webinar, however if the basic problem is low dry solids in the wine this won’t fix it (how much water did you top off with?)


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 3, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> The word sour means to me that there is a lot of acid. The normal cause of this would be an Acetobacter infection producing vinegar. This shouldn’t happen if the ullage was low and the cork was tight since this organism needs oxygen to live.
> An oxidation reaction can produce acetaldehyde which at low levels I would describe as apricot/ fruity/ sharp but interesting and at high levels I would describe as a burn in the back of the throat.
> For weakness I would go back to the options @winemaker81 listed. In a bottle you will have oxidation chemistry, the end of which is a brown color and loss of fruity aroma. You might ask your store if they have a product like SINATIN 17: liquid oak extract and test a drop of it in a glass of the present batch to guesstimate if oak is moving in a flavor direction you like. Another direction is finishing tannins as described in a Scott Labs webinar, however if the basic problem is low dry solids in the wine this won’t fix it (how much water did you top off with?)


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 3, 2021)

I didn’t take notes on the amount of water added. I know I went up to the 23 liter level.
I added wine to the batch later, to the suggested level.
After I opened the bottle yesterday I let it sit for a couple of hours without replacing the cork and the sour taste was not quite as strong, still not good.


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## Sailor323 (Apr 3, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> I didn’t take notes on the amount of water added. I know I went up to the 23 liter level.
> I added wine to the batch later, to the suggested level.
> After I opened the bottle yesterday I let it sit for a couple of hours without replacing the cork and the sour taste was not quite as strong, still not good.


When I do a kit, I do not pay a great deal of attention to the "suggested" level. I begin checking SG at about the 21 liter level and stop adding water when the SG is between 1.085 and 1.090. You could even go a bit higher for a fuller tasting wine. I always top up when racking with a similar wine. The sour taste is not something you would normally get with a kit wine as most, if not all, are of balanced acidity. Can you identify the kind of acid you are tasting--vinegar is quite distinctive, other acids, malic, tartaric no so much. Tartaric acid gives a certain amount of tartness to a wine--note tart, not sour, adjectives mean different things to different people. Tartaric acid is relatively stable and does not change markedly over time. Malic acid has a mellow, fruity tartness. It provides the tartness in apples. It is more fragile than tartaric and decreases somewhat over time and is subject to malo-lactic fermentation wherein certain microbes change it into lactic acid, a less tart flavored acid. There is a small amount of citric acid in wine. While much weaker than malic acid, it has a very intense effect on the tongue and tastes kind of lemony.


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## hounddawg (Apr 3, 2021)

Sailor323 said:


> When I do a kit, I do not pay a great deal of attention to the "suggested" level. I begin checking SG at about the 21 liter level and stop adding water when the SG is between 1.085 and 1.090. You could even go a bit higher for a fuller tasting wine. I always top up when racking with a similar wine. The sour taste is not something you would normally get with a kit wine as most, if not all, are of balanced acidity. Can you identify the kind of acid you are tasting--vinegar is quite distinctive, other acids, malic, tartaric no so much. Tartaric acid gives a certain amount of tartness to a wine--note tart, not sour, adjectives mean different things to different people. Tartaric acid is relatively stable and does not change markedly over time. Malic acid has a mellow, fruity tartness. It provides the tartness in apples. It is more fragile than tartaric and decreases somewhat over time and is subject to malo-lactic fermentation wherein certain microbes change it into lactic acid, a less tart flavored acid. There is a small amount of citric acid in wine. While much weaker than malic acid, it has a very intense effect on the tongue and tastes kind of lemony.


cool explanation, I've never heard the differences explained in that way before, 
Dawg


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 4, 2021)

Just had a taste from the bottle I opened a couple of days ago. Not certain, but I think it tastes a little like "apple" sour. I guess I would hope it may change (somewhat) over time to a fuller-bodied taste. I appreciate your explanation, but what now? Any way of saving this batch to make it drinkable?
I have to add that I have increased my vocabulary a bit by reading some replies to my comments.


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## MarcOlivetti (Apr 5, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> One thing that can be done with all wines is adding glycerin at bottling time. I purchase glycerin for liqueurs, and tested it with my 2019 wines. 1 oz/gallon makes a tremendous improvement in mouth feel.


Winemaker81 - Thanks HUGE!!! It’s snippets like this, that can make ALL THE DIFFERENCE in a batch. My first batch of DDB was waaaay drier than I expected (probably due to adding 1 Tbsp of Tannin vs. 1 Tsp. I should have had a second cup of coffee that morning). SG was 1.005 after backsweetening, but much drier than wanted. Adding 1oz. of glycerin to a gallon to test, made ALL the difference. Just what I was looking for! Thank you for sharing your experience.


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## Lukaswine (Apr 6, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I searched on "wine grape skin" and *found this*.
> 
> There is also a *grape skin extract* that is basically food coloring.


I didn’t know you could tweak wine kits until I found this website last year . A wealth of information ... mind blowing! Thanks.


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 26, 2021)

I'm beginning my 4th. week of a 1 gal. kit of Chardonnay. I topped it off with a like wine which gave me more than 1 gal. allowing me to save 1/2 of a qt. mason jar. I think that was after the 14th. day. The original SG was 1.082, on the 14th. day it was 0.993. That was after adding Sulphate/Sorbate and degassing
Ingredients 2 [1/4 oz] packets rapid rise yeast [such as Fleischmann's] ¼ cup granulated sugar, plus 1 tsp 1⅓ cup of lukewarm water or milk 4 cups all purpose flour 1 tsp salt 1 large egg 8 Tbsp butter, divided Instructions In a measuring cup, dissolve both packets of yeast and 1 teaspoon of sugar in 1⅓ cup of lukewarm water. If you use hot water or milk, it will kill the yeast and the bread won't rise. So, make sure the water is lukewarm not boiling. Let the yeast mixture sit on the counter for 5-7 minutes to allow the yeast to "bloom." You'll see bubbles and froth begin to gather on the top. In a medium size mixing bowl, sift together the flour, salt and sugar. Add the egg. After the yeast has developed, gradually add it to the dry ingredients in the bowl, along with 5 tablespoons of melted butter. Begin to blend the ingredients together, using a large spoon incorporating more liquid as you go. I used a silicone spatula, and the dough didn't stick to it, making this task a lot easier. After incorporating all of the flour place into a buttered bowl, and cover it with a damp cloth. Allow the dough to sit in a warm, draft free place, covered for 1 hour to double. Use a 2 ounce ice cream scoop, lightly sprayed with cooking spray, to separate the dough into even portions after punching it down to release the air bubbles. Roll into a ball in your hands then arrange side by side, in a buttered non-stick metal baking pan. I used a 10-inch spring form pan. Melt the remaining 3 tablespoons of butter and using a pastry brush, lightly brush the tops. Reserve some of the melted butter to brush on the tops after the rolls come out of the oven, too. Cover with a damp cloth and allow the rolls to rise again until doubled. [about an hour] OR Bake them immediately To bake: Bake in a preheated 400°F oven for 20-22 minutes. Serve hot. Original Recipe: http://www.melissassouthernstylekitch...


SHOW LESS


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 26, 2021)

I'm beginning my 4th. week of a 1 gal. kit of Chardonnay. I topped it off with a like wine which gave me more than 1 gal. allowing me to save 1/2 of a qt. mason jar. I think that was after the 14th. day. The original SG was 1.082, on the 14th. day it was 0.993. That was after adding Sulphate/Sorbate and degassing and then adding Kieselsol. I took a taste from the mason jar today and it was REALLY acidic. Is there anything I can do before I do the final rack next week?


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## Gilmango (Apr 26, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> I'm beginning my 4th. week of a 1 gal. kit of Chardonnay. I topped it off with a like wine which gave me more than 1 gal. allowing me to save 1/2 of a qt. mason jar. I think that was after the 14th. day. The original SG was 1.082, on the 14th. day it was 0.993. That was after adding Sulphate/Sorbate and degassing and then adding Kieselsol. I took a taste from the mason jar today and it was REALLY acidic. Is there anything I can do before I do the final rack next week?


It sounds like you only sampled from the extra wine which was in a half full Mason jar, and sounds like that wine may have spoiled either due to contamination, or just being in a half full jar exposed to a large amount of oxygen (possibly turning to vinegar, or just really oxidized)? Hopefully, when you rack the wine which is in the 1 gallon container, which was full to the top, you won't experience that same really acidic taste. In that case, just dump what is in the Mason jar. If it is all super acidic I don't know if it can be saved.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 26, 2021)

@Gerry Congleton, I agree, DO NOT mix the mason jar into the remainder of the batch.

Topup wine must be protected, same as the remainder of the batch. Leaving a large head space will produce bad results.


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## hounddawg (Apr 26, 2021)

same as above 2
Dawg


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 26, 2021)

Visited with the wine/beer supply guy today. I explained the situation with mason jar taste, but he is a beer guy. He did find a bit of info that I'm not sure about, but I'm going to try it. He suggested I put some Tartar in the mason jar and it would acidic molecules (?) drop to the bottom. Eh? I think I can hear the uproar already.
I will follow your suggestions for the gal. carboy. Is there a problem if I just rack it to another gal. carboy and age it for a couple of months?
As always, THANK YOU for your help!!!


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## winemaker81 (Apr 26, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> Visited with the wine/beer supply guy today. I explained the situation with mason jar taste, but he is a beer guy. He did find a bit of info that I'm not sure about, but I'm going to try it. He suggested I put some Tartar in the mason jar and it would acidic molecules (?) drop to the bottom. Eh? I think I can hear the uproar already.


No uproar. My goal, and that of other responders, is to help you avoid losing your main batch.

Your LHBS guy may know beer, but don't trust him on wine. Adding tartaric acid to a wine that may be oxidizing? Words fail me. 

Get the mason jar wine into a container that minimizes headspace. Look for screwcap wine bottles, 750, 375, 200, 125 ml. I have purchased samples/wedding size on sale, threw the wine out, cleaned the bottles, and kept them for small amounts.

If that wine is hosed, you lost a pint. In the grand scheme of things, it's a cheap lesson.

Next time you rack the gallon, top with Chardonnay. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as you like it.


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 26, 2021)

Thanks for your help and information. What are your thoughts about leaving some room at the top of the primary fermentation container and just covering the container with a cloth until the first rack? Do you use water or a like wine for the first topping off?


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## hounddawg (Apr 26, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> Thanks for your help and information. What are your thoughts about leaving some room at the top of the primary fermentation container and just covering the container with a cloth until the first rack? Do you use water or a like wine for the first topping off?


you mean to ferment? i ferment in a 32 gallon drum, even if only making 6 or 7 gallons, oxygen is your friend during ferment, i stir oxygen in daily during ferment, now as soon as ferment is over then oxygen is your enemy , the towel helps keep the crawlers out, 
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (Apr 27, 2021)

Most on WMT ferment in open containers, as @hounddawg said. Oxygen is required for the yeast to multiply, so fermenting in a carboy or other sealed container inhibits yeast expansion. Stir the wine (juice) or punch down the cap (fruit) at least once a day. This mixes the must and prevents dry spots from forming on top, where mold can grow.

I normally do the first rack between 1.010 (juice & kits) and 0.998 (grapes) as I want some activity left. The wine goes into a carboy with headspace -- at this time it's still fermenting so headspace is not only ok, it prevents volcanos if the fermentation gets vigorous. After 1 to 2 weeks the fermentation normally completes and the gross lees drops and compacts. It will be emitting a lot of dissolved CO2.

At this point I rack again and place in containers with minimal headspace, as oxygen is now the enemy. I am now in the habit of stirring the wine -- 2 minutes, changing direction every 30 seconds. This causes the wine is expel a LOT of CO2 and the wine clears much quicker. I like to get it off the gross lees fairly quickly.


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 27, 2021)

Very helpful, thanks! What kind of SG are you looking for when you decide to do the final rack? Do you bottle then or age in a large container?


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## winemaker81 (Apr 27, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> Very helpful, thanks! What kind of SG are you looking for when you decide to do the final rack? Do you bottle then or age in a large container?


After the lack racking I mentioned, the SG should be 0.990 to 0.996. When the SG is in this range and not changing for 3 days, it's done fermenting.

It's typically 3 to 4 weeks from start to going into bulk aging. I bulk age for 2 to 12 months, depending on the wine.

Kits -- 2 to 6 months. I typically bulk age longer than the instructions say, but unless I'm adding extra oak, probably 3 to 4 months.

Whites & fruits -- 3 to 6 months.

Reds -- 3 to 12 months. If it's a basic red with no oak, 3 or 4 months. With oak additives? 4 to 8 months. If in a barrel, 12 months, which is when the next year's wine is ready to go into the barrel.

These time frames depend on numerous factors, including the wine itself, my free time, if I have enough bottles collected, etc. I have not had a serious problem with wine clearing in decades, so that's not a factor for me. However, if the wine is not clear and/or is dropping sediment, it's not ready to bottle.


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## Gerry Congleton (Apr 27, 2021)

All of this is beginning to come together and make more sense to me. Your insight has been very helpful. I may make a good batch yet!!
Thank you!!


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## Gerry Congleton (May 1, 2021)

I started a 5 gal. kit of Reisling yesterday and held back on topping off with water in order to leave more space for the oxygen/fermentation. My first measure of SG was 1.130 which sounds high to me. I'm wondering if I should add more water in hopes of bringing the SG down to near where the kit suggests.
Any suggestions?


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## sour_grapes (May 1, 2021)

I would suggest you transfer to a bucket to ferment, and add water to get the SG into the proper range.


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## Gerry Congleton (May 1, 2021)

I have it in a bucket now and the fermentation is doing well. I will add more water to get to suggested SG.
Thanks!!


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## Gerry Congleton (May 1, 2021)

One more question. Should I be stirring, as suggested earlier, while it is fermenting?


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## G259 (May 1, 2021)

I usually stir daily, and take an SG reading after, then I know where the wine is. This also lets some CO2 escape, and adds oxygen, which helps the yeast during ferment. Oh yeah, get a notebook and log everything! This is the soundest advice that I have ever gotten about making wine.


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## Gerry Congleton (May 1, 2021)

Thank you!


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## G259 (May 2, 2021)

You are welcome, enjoy the journey!


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## Gerry Congleton (May 3, 2021)

I am on my 3rd. day of stirring. The SG now measures 1.100. The 1st. day SG was 1.130. The 1st. day suggested SG is 1.070 to 1.097. Should I continue to stir until the fermentation appears to be done?


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## winemaker81 (May 3, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> I am on my 3rd. day of stirring. The SG now measures 1.100. The 1st. day SG was 1.130. The 1st. day suggested SG is 1.070 to 1.097. Should I continue to stir until the fermentation appears to be done?


Yes. Stir at least daily.


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## Gerry Congleton (May 5, 2021)

After stirring yesterday the SG measured 1.042 which sounded good to me. Today has been pretty crappy. I found the sensor for the heater (plastic wrap around) laying on the table and the wine very warm, 87 degrees. I stirred it to try and cool it a bit, but it didn't help much. When I measured the SG it was up from yesterday - 1.048. I'm thinking there will be some negative effects, but I don't know what. If I have spoiled this batch beyond fixing I will be pretty pissed. I'm feeling like a bull in a china shop!!


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## winemaker81 (May 5, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> When I measured the SG it was up from yesterday - 1.048


Unless you've added something, the SG will not go up that much. Temperature adjustments are typically 1 or 2 points. My guess is that you got an incorrect reading, probably due to CO2.

Things are probably ok. 87 F is a bit high for development of aromatics, but wine yeast often likes temperatures up to 105 F (or so). The must will cool down and fermentation will continue.

You started with a very high SG -- it takes yeast time to eat that much sugar. This is not going to be a typical fermentation that is done in 5 to 7 days -- 8 to 14 is likely, although with the temperature at 87 F, it may ferment faster than I expect.

I suggest you simply stir the wine daily and let the yeast do its own thing. Relax and enjoy a glass of wine!


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## Gerry Congleton (May 5, 2021)

I thought for sure I had probably burned the mix and messed it up. It's nice to have you guys around and being so willing to help.
Thank you!!


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## Gerry Congleton (Jun 1, 2021)

I opened another bottle of Cab. Sauvignon. yesterday. It is just very weak. I describe it as not having much body or tasted. Like a bottle purposely watered down.
Is it possible to empty all of the bottles into a carboy and ferment again??


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## winemaker81 (Jun 1, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> Is it possible to empty all of the bottles into a carboy and ferment again??


If we are talking about the wine first mentioned in this thread, probably not. The initial SG was high so trying to re-ignite the fermentation is less likely to work. If it did work, you'd simply have the same wine with a higher ABV. If it doesn't work, you have a sweet Cab.

The additives previously mentioned, including glycerin and oak, may help. I'd not add anything containing sugar (elderberries, skins, etc) as the ferment may not work and you'll have a sweet Cab.


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## Gerry Congleton (Jun 1, 2021)

Thanks for your response. If I emptied all of the bottles into a carboy, could I add some yeast and necessary additives and go through the process again?


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## winemaker81 (Jun 1, 2021)

IMO, no. The ABV is already high enough that re-starting the ferment is unlikely.

You don't need more alcohol. If it were me, I'd unbottle and age on 2 oz of medium toast oak cubes (American, Hungarian, or French) for 3 months. Rack off the cubes and add 1/2 to 1 oz glycerin per gallon, and taste.

What brand kit are you using?


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## Gerry Congleton (Jun 1, 2021)

The kit was from Wine Expert.
I'll take your advice and try the oak cubes and then the glycerin.
Thanks for the help.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 1, 2021)

The additives should help, but may not produce the result you want. In this case, plan for alternate uses of the wine, e.g., cooking, wine drinks (sangria!), and the like.

WE makes good kits IME. Did you top this one with water?


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## Gerry Congleton (Jun 1, 2021)

I did top with water, too much I think.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 1, 2021)

Gerry Congleton said:


> I did top with water, too much I think.


Honestly, IMO there is no fixing the wine so that it will be what you want. If you haven't started unbottling, don't do it.

So go with Plan B. The wine is not optimal -- it's not undrinkable, just not what you intended. Find other uses for it.

Cooking!

You have 2 cases of wine -- substitute wine for stock or water in recipes where it makes sense, e.g., don't pour 1 gallon of wine into a pot to boil pasta. [actually, that sounds interesting, I might try it when my wife isn't home for dinner, as my hare-brained ideas don't always work out.]

Making chili with beans? Replace some (or all) of the water with wine. I add half a bottle (or more) when making spaghetti sauce.

Start making dishes that actually call for wine, so you don't have to be too inventive. Chicken in red wine is good.

Wine drinks! A quickie Sangria-like drink is 1 bottle red wine, juice of 1 each lemon, lime, and orange, and sugar to taste. Substitute other fruit.

Frozen slushie -- wine, water, flavorings, freeze, stirring every hour or so.

Make ice cubes to be used in drinks where red wine is not off-the-wall. Now I'm wondering what a frozen Margarita would taste like if I substitute 1/2 the ice with wine cubes.

When life hands you lemons, make limoncello!


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## Kraffty (Jun 2, 2021)

Agree with above AND use it when topping off your next kit


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## Swedeman (Jun 2, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> You have 2 cases of wine -- substitute wine for stock or water in recipes where it makes sense, e.g., don't pour 1 gallon of wine into a pot to boil pasta. [actually, that sounds interesting, I might try it when my wife isn't home for dinner, as my hare-brained ideas don't always work out.]


Haha, you're late on this idea.  Google cooking pasta in red wine. I often cook risotto using red wine Risotto al Vino Rosso


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