# What's the best way to control fermentation temperature?



## REDRUM (Dec 3, 2013)

Just wondering what the best way to control the temperature of a fermentation could be? 
We will be fermenting red wine (Grenache) in a couple of large, high-density plastic vats - I know that having a relatively hot ferment is not such an issue for red wines, but this will be done in an uninsulated & non-air conditioned garden shed and I want to minimise the risk that might be posed by a heat wave... Any advice would be very welcome!


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## jamesngalveston (Dec 3, 2013)

you didnt say how big the vats were, but really does not matter.
without a/c are other cooling you can not control the temp.
I have had temps in a blackberry get to 95 degree internal temp, when then ambient was 72. I had a fig get to 105.
In an unisulated shed, with no ac, I think you are asking for problems before you start..
good luck


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 3, 2013)

Redrum,
First, let me say that I lmfao when I saw your user name, I love it...LMFAO!!!!
I agree with James, how big are the vats, there are so many different levels of wine makers on this forum that I'm sure that someone will have a very good solution for you.
I've been successful in cold soaking my crush for 5 days using frozen 2 liter soda bottles filled 3/4 with water, every 12 hrs I would rotate the thawed bottles out and the other frozen bottles in after I washed and sanitized with Star San, Thanks to Steve for that tip!


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## Stressbaby (Dec 3, 2013)

Dry ice is what my buddy used before building an AC room in his basement.

Edited to add link: http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/pdf/HWM3.pdf

It says 100# dry ice will cool 100 gallons of must by 20F (13C). Also mentions 1 gallon water jugs filled with water, frozen. Recommends cooling the must if temp gets over 85F and recommends keeping under 90F.


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## richmke (Dec 3, 2013)

How about using a wort chiller? You can use the water to water your plants.

If you need to cool frequently, then add something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sous-Vide-T...002?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c31d113f2

where the power controls a sprinkler type valve.

Or, just use a sprinkler setup to do frequent short coolings, and then manually check as often you can.

Question: Is there any issue with thermal shock to the yeast? The main batch will cool slightly, but the wine near the cooling device will be much colder. If you have any room under the vat, maybe a magnetic stirrer would help with distributing the temp.


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## seth8530 (Dec 3, 2013)

I put my fermentation vessel inside of a deepfreezer and use a johnson control temperature controller with the probe attached to the wine, on the deepfreezer to insure that the temperature stays where I want it. Works really great! However, I am not sure how big your batch is... So it may or may not fit into a freezer.


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## REDRUM (Dec 3, 2013)

At a guess (I didn't buy it myself & it's not at my place to check) I reckon around 500L - i.e. roughly two barrels' worth. this sort of thing:






Usually we get around a tonne of grapes off the block, and in the past these have all gone into one big wooden fermentation vat. So, yeah, a pretty sizeable amount.

I have had people tell me that so long as there is sufficient airflow to allow heat dissipation it _should _be fine, & with a batch this size temperature is not going to fluctuate hugely anyway.

Just worried about what to do if there's a heat wave during vintage ... which tends to happen sometimes where we are ... more than a few days in a row over 35 will cause all kinds of problems. The harvest is usually early March, so maybe there's a bit of time to try to convince my father in law to put a bit more insulation in his shed!!!

I also like the sound of using dry ice or dangling containers of frozen water in the ferment - that could be a good 'emergency' measure if need be - thanks for the tips!

A key thing for me is that my FIL has been making his wine his way for a long time... it's very rustic, I want to help him out and try to improve the quality but do it without stepping on his toes too much. He doesn't use commercial yeasts (just the wild yeasts on the grape skins), no additives other than SO2, no filtering and fining, no measurements (all done by 'feel') - it's very 'traditional' and he definitely knows what he's doing, but I just think there's room to improve the finished product .... I think this year I will take some of his grapes and see how I go making a separate batch, if it works well I'm hoping I can convince him to experiment a little bit with more modern techniques...!



Pumpkinman said:


> Redrum,
> First, let me say that I lmfao when I saw your user name, I love it...LMFAO!!!!


Hahaha, cheers!


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## seth8530 (Dec 3, 2013)

Not a bad plan, honestly I believe that if you are fermenting 500 liters you are going to need some sort of cooling to prevent the must from overheating.. .That is a boatload of fermentation going to raise the temperature on up...


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## REDRUM (Dec 3, 2013)

Yeah I know.....!
Do you think that evaporative cooling would work at all well with something this size - like, tying wet towels or something around the fermentor and keeping them moist, & having a fan on them? Or is it just too much volume for that to have much of an impact on heat transfer?


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## sdelli (Dec 3, 2013)

REDRUM said:


> At a guess (I didn't buy it myself & it's not at my place to check) I reckon around 500L - i.e. roughly two barrels' worth. this sort of thing: Usually we get around a tonne of grapes off the block, and in the past these have all gone into one big wooden fermentation vat. So, yeah, a pretty sizeable amount. I have had people tell me that so long as there is sufficient airflow to allow heat dissipation it should be fine, & with a batch this size temperature is not going to fluctuate hugely anyway. Just worried about what to do if there's a heat wave during vintage ... which tends to happen sometimes where we are ... more than a few days in a row over 35 will cause all kinds of problems. The harvest is usually early March, so maybe there's a bit of time to try to convince my father in law to put a bit more insulation in his shed!!! I also like the sound of using dry ice or dangling containers of frozen water in the ferment - that could be a good 'emergency' measure if need be - thanks for the tips! A key thing for me is that my FIL has been making his wine his way for a long time... it's very rustic, I want to help him out and try to improve the quality but do it without stepping on his toes too much. He doesn't use commercial yeasts (just the wild yeasts on the grape skins), no additives other than SO2, no filtering and fining, no measurements (all done by 'feel') - it's very 'traditional' and he definitely knows what he's doing, but I just think there's room to improve the finished product .... I think this year I will take some of his grapes and see how I go making a separate batch, if it works well I'm hoping I can convince him to experiment a little bit with more modern techniques...! Hahaha, cheers!



I was thinking around 400L but still...... It will fit in the container you have a picture of?
How about you surround this container on the outside with plastic. Creating an outer pocket all around the outside of it. Then fill this outer pocket with ice. I would think it would keep it pretty cool.....


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## manvsvine (Dec 4, 2013)

You should be fine with those , they aren't big enough to get so hot to worry .


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## seth8530 (Dec 4, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> You should be fine with those , they aren't big enough to get so hot to worry .




Are you sure?! 400 liters of wine is nearly 100 gallons of wine. I think that is more than enough wine and grape mixture to generate and trap significant amounts of heat. I do not think evaporation is really going to help you enough. Frozen Ice water bottles is not a bad idea nor is giving the fermenter some ice on the outside of it once it starts fermenting.

However, I think another possible solution would be the use of heat pipes. Ie, run stainless tubing through the must and run water through the tubing. The cooler the better... But, I think it would be quite fine if its not icy cold.. Just so long as it helps bring the temperature down. I am suggesting stainless tubing instead of copper to avoid getting copper into the wine.


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## REDRUM (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks Seth, the tubing sounds like it could be worth a try. I think so long as conditions are 'normal' I'll try not to interfere too much. I suppose if I'm plunging the cap regularly that will also release a lot of the heat that gets trapped in the must?

I'm getting excited about vintage, gonna also do a small batch at my house in a smaller fermentation vessel (like, a 25L bucket), where I can have much more control over the whole process. How much wine would 25L / 6.5 gallons of must correspond to?


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## seth8530 (Dec 4, 2013)

Glad to see you think it might be useful, I think you will see quite quickly why some sort of cooling might be necessary once you make a 25 Liter batch. Your yield will depend on your equipment that you use. From 15 gallons of frozen must (mostly all grapes) I yielded around 9 gallons of pinot noir. Your efficiency will depend greatly on your ability to press the juice from your skins. 

I found that with my home setup ( press made of buckets) that my skins were quite dry after I pressed them so I made a second running with them using honey instead of water.


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## REDRUM (Dec 4, 2013)

... interesting! Did the honey dominate the flavour of the end product?


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## seth8530 (Dec 4, 2013)

It is still a work in progress, but the honey is definitely present in the flavour in a mead like way but the flavour right now tends to lean on the fruity side on the front (cold fermented pinot noir) before kind of following up with kind of a chocolate background flavour which comes from the honey. If you are interested below are two threads which I have linked. One is my first adventure into making grape wine from frozen must and the second is my mead project using used pinot noir skins and honey.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/fall-wine-plans-storm-brewing-39460/
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f51/pinot-rose-pyment-39741/


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## richmke (Dec 5, 2013)

I did not occur to me that having a copper chiller submerged for so long would leach into the wine. Here is a stainless steel wort chiller:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/290725094692

You can bend copper tubing to make your own wort chiller, but stainless steel is much harder.

If you put the connections through the fermentor's wall or cap, you only have to sanitize it once. With all the chilled water bottles or dry ice, that is a lot of opportunity to contaminate the batch.


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## REDRUM (Dec 8, 2013)

Nice, thanks for that info richmke.


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## REDRUM (Dec 10, 2013)

Another quick question - what would be an appropriate yeast to use for Grenache? What qualities do different yeasts bring to the wine? I want to bring out the spicy, earthy, peppery flavours in the grape.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 10, 2013)

According to Lalvin, for Grenache, you can emphasize the spice with one of these:

Lalvin ICV-D80 
CSM 
SYRAH 
RP15

Here are a few resources discussing yeast selection that I have found informative:

http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/yeast_chart.php

http://www.lallemandwine.us/cellar.php

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

http://www.eckraus.com/RedStarProfiles.htm


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## REDRUM (Dec 11, 2013)

sour_grapes said:


> According to Lalvin, for Grenache, you can emphasize the spice with one of these:
> 
> Lalvin ICV-D80
> CSM
> ...



Brilliant, thanks sourgrapes


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## sour_grapes (Dec 11, 2013)

You are most welcome! (I'd say "No worries, mate," but I took a New Year's resolution to say "You're welcome" to an expression of thanks, rather than say "No problem," "de rien," etc.)


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## altavino (Dec 13, 2013)

grenache is a veriety thats hard to pull colour out of , a nice hot ferment helps maximise colour and phenolics .

unless your ferment is getting so hot your yeast is stressing out ( in which case you could throw in a few frozen water jugs as a heat wave intervention) I wouldn't do much more than punch down 4 x a day , select a yeast that is both heat tollerant and has a moderate fermentation speed ( d80 & d254 come to mind) and avoid using pure dap for nutirent (use fermaid K instead) to avoid a really peaky ferment .

if your grapes are coming out of cold storage anyway and your batches are less than a tonne in a single fermenter heat shouldnt be a big problem compared to a 5 tonne batch straight out of a warm vineyard .

deviding the batches into a couple smaller fermenters is also an option. the smaller the batch , the less heat. anything larger than a half tonne picking bin might get hot , anything smaller , no worries .

if you lived in Darwin it might be more of an issue.



relax.


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## REDRUM (Feb 25, 2014)

Cheers 

Now it looks like we will be doing a Grenache / Shiraz co-ferment. Does anyone have any advice as to ideal time for maceration on skins for optimal colour / flavour extraction but not too tannic?


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## seth8530 (Feb 25, 2014)

Good question, I can confirm that warmer temperatures tend to lead to a darker wine, while cooler temperatures lead to a fruitier style wine. I can also vouch for a cold soak doing a good job at extracting flavour, colour and sugar from grapes. Perhaps someone with more grape wine experience than me can comment.


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## REDRUM (Feb 25, 2014)

Temperature control will be largely left to the whims of Bacchus I think - so I guess rule of thumb: if it's cool, leave it for longer, if it's hot, don't leave it so long.


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## seth8530 (Feb 25, 2014)

Perhaps, I would be worried about spoilage at high temperature without fermentation or post fermentation. However, during the ferment all should be good.

Also, no one made a rule that said you cant taste the wine to see if its getting a wee bit too tanic too soon (;


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## REDRUM (Feb 26, 2014)

OK - got me some Campden tabs, some wine yeast & a fermentation bucket, picking the grapes tomorrow & Saturday, wish me luck!


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## REDRUM (Feb 27, 2014)

I have another quick question: 

I am picking Shiraz tomorrow and Grenache the day after but I want the grapes to ferment together. Should I sterilise the Shiraz with campden tabs immediately to stop fermentation from starting with wild yeasts, or wait until I add the other grapes the next day and chuck the tabs in then? 

And after that, how long should I wait to pitch in the wine yeast (Lalvin Bourgovin RC212) - about a day?

Cheers


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## seth8530 (Feb 27, 2014)

I would go ahead and add Kmeta for the appropriate amount for the Shiraz, and once the Grenache arrives go ahead and add the needed amount for it. Just make sure that the grapes are not presulfited. I would go ahead and make yourself a good starter in the meantime and pitch a day after you sulfite the second half.


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## REDRUM (Mar 2, 2014)

I have a 30L fermenter bubbling away now at a nice even 22C (72F). Ended up being about 65% Grenache, 35% Shiraz. We are living in an apartment at the moment so have the wine out on the balcony, well insulated with a blanket to hopefully avoid too much temperature fluctuation - weather for the next week looks nice and mild, but I have some water bottles in the freezer to dangle in the must in case it starts heating up too much.


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## JohnT (Mar 5, 2014)

how about some pictures? It never really happened unless we see some pictures!


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## REDRUM (Mar 5, 2014)

Haha! Well here is the 2014 Verandah d'Ascot Grenache Shiraz in its infancy: 





There are a few photos of the harvest & the crush in this thread:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/harvest-south-australia-43881/


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## REDRUM (Mar 25, 2014)

So, I pressed the wine after it was sitting on skins for 2 weeks - tried to press with a potato masher which kind of worked, but gave up after bending the metal & breaking the implement, and switched to using a combination of coffee plunger and bare hands. Not ideal at all, after I was done the whole place looked like a scene from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Anyway, managed to get all the wine into a 15L glass demijohn (was the perfect size, starting with 25L must) and added more K-meta.

I have had a winemaker friend come and check it out & run some tests at the lab at his workplace, all the numbers look good, the wine is clean & bright but much lighter in colour than perhaps it should be. Grenache is usually a fairly light red but the shiraz component should have given it a much deeper colour after that much time on skins. I thought maybe my inadequate pressing might have meant less colour extraction but he reckons that maybe I just used grapes that were not quite ripe enough at harvest. Any thoughts? This one might just turn out to be a nice rosé style.... 

Anyway, he gave me some malolactic bacterial culture to innoculate with, which is good because it's bloody expensive to buy the packet stuff down at my local homebrew shop!


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## JohnT (Mar 26, 2014)

REDRUM, why not try the Redneck Wine Press..

*Parts: Total cost should be about $15 (usd)*
-Get two 5 gallon plastic buckets (they should be the same size and shape so that one can tightly stack inside the other). 

-a bucket the size/shape of your average wash tub. A plastic demi-john bucket works great here.

-two 12 inch oak boards about 18 or 20 inches long. The wood should be clean and unused and preferably made of oak.


*Construction:*
Make a "strainer bucket" by riddling one 5 gallon bucket with 3/8 inch holes (about 1/2 inch apart) all over the bottom and sides. 

Leave the other 5 gallon bucket in tact (no holes). This will be our "plunger bucket".

*Pressing:*
Place one of the boards into your wash tub, 

Place the strainer (or the bucket with all of the holes) inside the wash tub (on top of the board) 

Fill the strainer 2/3 full with your fermented red grapes. and allow the "free-run" juice to drain. 

Place the plunger bucket (the one without any holes) inside the strainer bucket bucket (the one with holes). 

Place the second board on top of the plunger bucket. 

Sit down on the board. 

Have your wife bring you a glass of wine. You would get it yourself, except you are busy pressing your wine.

When wine stops flowing, empty your wash tub into your carboy and repeat the process. 


One of the things I like to do is to run through all of my grapes, save skins them in a clean container, then press all of the skins a second time. I think you will be shocked at how dry those skins will be once you are finished. 


I know a number of people that press this way. I would not recommend it if you are doing a huge amount of wine, but it sure does work great for batches under 15 gallons or so.


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## seth8530 (Mar 26, 2014)

I have pressed in a way similar to that before. Its a PAIN, but it does work and it works pretty well actually.


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## REDRUM (Mar 27, 2014)

I like the sound of that setup! Next time...


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