# I need some Barrel Education



## Pumpkinman (Feb 1, 2013)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

From everything that I've read, a smaller barrel, let's say a 23 liter barrel will impart oak much faster due to more surface area in contact with the oak, so realistically, you cannot age a wine for long periods of time without turning it into liquid lumber.
These reduced time frames in the barrel almost eliminate the possibility of micro oxidation, until it has gone neutral, then at least I can age the wine in the barrel long enough to reap the benefits of micro oxidation.

That said, what is the the next size up that will realistically allow me to age the wine long enough to reap the benefits of micro oxidation and slower oaking?

Would a 15 or 20 Gallon barrel be large enough? I don't see myself making 30 gallons of one type of wine yet, but I have plans on making 15 gallons of Amarone, Brunello, maybe a Chianti and so on.

Originally, I wanted to buy 23 liter barrels to accommodate the 6 gallon batches of wine that I have been making, but after starting this wine season off running, and making most every type of wine that I've wanted to make, My wife and I have decided on a few favorites that I plan on making in larger batches, maybe 15 or 20 gallons, and a few smaller batches, just to keep the inventory stocked up, until I have a 2 or 3 year supply stocked.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 1, 2013)

The 40 liter Vadai is only a few bucks more than the 23.  Honestly, when you start to look at a break in schedule for a 23 liter, after 1 or 2 batches, you can leave it in there long enough to get some decent micro-ox. I'll take my first batch out of the barrel this weekend. It will be in for 5 weeks tomorrow. Batch two, I imagine will be in there 6-8 weeks. Probably closer to 8. Batch 3 will probably be able to go 12 weeks, which, as I understand is long enough to get decent micro-ox. After that, I'm guessing my wines will live in the barrel for 3-6 months.


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## ibglowin (Feb 1, 2013)

Tom,

When the barrel is new (first few batches) your right the time is a little on the short side it would seem. But, I have done enough free SO2 test to know that a wine will go from ~40ppm free SO2 down to only ~5ppm in only 3 months in a barrel. That tells me there is plenty of oxidation going on. The smaller the barrel the higher the wood to wine ratio AND the higher the oxidation rate (rate of decline per gallon of wine). You will loose roughly a full Liter of wine in only 12 weeks to the angels share. Thats over a full bottle out of 30 or ~5% concentration in just 12 weeks. Over and over I have pulled a wine out after 3-4 months and thought to myself this is the best wine I have ever made. It could be bottled and drunk right now. Of course I don't but, a barrel does some pretty wonderful stuff to wine, even (and especially) kit wines. There is NO COMPARISON to a wine aged just 3-4 months in a barrel vs a wine that has lived its entire life in a glass carboy.

Or in other words, a barrel does for wine what a grape pack does for a red kit wine. There is just no comparison between the two when compared side by side.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike,
Thanks!! This is what I wanted to know!


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## kwb1963 (Feb 2, 2013)

Pumpkinman, thanks for posting this thread. I too am struggling with my barrel schedule. Fortunately, I have four reds to rotate through until spring when I plan to get some more chilean grapes. I was also wondering about a larger barrel. I'm thinking about buying 120 lbs of both Cab and Merlot. That should net me at least 8-gal of each which I could blend and fill a larger barrel. But then what? Can't leave it in there for too long, and I sure won't have another 16-gal of wine to replace it. So I may just stick with my two 6-gal barrels for now.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 3, 2013)

I think Mike mentioned that he breaks his barrels in with a cheap red kit, I'm thinking that maybe the next time i see a buy one get one sale on those cheap-o kits, i could take advantage of that to break a barrel in and possibly as a filler wine so I don't have to have the barrel empty while my wines are getting ready for a barrel.
I have the following reds are bulk aging in carboys that I could cycle through barrels:

5 gallon Amarone 
5 gallon Amarone - Batch #2
5 gal Lambrusco
5 gal Chianti
5 gal Pinot Noir
6 Gallon Brunello - fermenting
6 Gallon Merlot - fermenting


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 3, 2013)

That Brunello screams Vadai to me. It would also be a nice experiment to put one of the Amarones through it and compare the two.


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## ibglowin (Feb 3, 2013)

I break in a new barrel with a Kit, not necessarily a cheap one though. On my last barrel the "break in" kit was the Red Mountain Trio. After that first kit in goes 6 gallons of wine from this years crush that has been through MLF. The barrel will then be infected with MLB after that so no more kits for that barrel.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 3, 2013)

> The barrel will then be infected with MLB after that so no more kits for that barrel.


Ah good point to remember!, yep, so two barrels are necessary, not a big deal, just something I hadn't even thought about.

What is the difference between fermenting in the barrel, and in a fermenting bucket or Carboy? Will it make a significant difference?


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## novalou (Feb 3, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> Ah good point to remember!, yep, so two barrels are necessary, not a big deal, just something I hadn't even thought about.
> 
> What is the difference between fermenting in the barrel, and in a fermenting bucket or Carboy? Will it make a significant difference?



Fermenting in a bucket facilitates stirring and punching down the cap when doing wine with grapes.

I have fermented in a carboy when my buckets were tied up, it does work.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 3, 2013)

I prefer not to ferment in a carboy, to restrictive for me, but my question was more a question of should you ferment in a barrel and if so, why, what will if bring to the "table".


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## ibglowin (Feb 3, 2013)

Barrel fermentation is especially beneficial to white wines (Chardonnay, etc.). First, since white wines lack the tannins of reds, the wine can draw tannins from the wood barrel. Secondly, since the fermentation process occurs while the wine is soaking up the oak flavor, the wood flavor is weakened. This leaves the light flavors of butter, spice and oak in the wine, instead of an overwhelmingly woody taste. Finally, the wood imparts a rich, almost creamy character to the wine. Its a great way to break in a new barrel in order to soften it a bit and take the edges down a notch so that your first red wine can stay in for a much longer time than had you not done a barrel ferment first.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 3, 2013)

Perfect! My hat is off to you Mike!
Thanks!


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 11, 2013)

Sorry to revive this thread but I am going to pull the trigger on a Vadai barrel tomorrow or wed.

I have to get a 5 gallon, 20 liter since the bulk of my wines are in 5 gallon carboys, I'd rather just get 6 gallon barrels, but there would be way too much head space. Does this make sense? It doesn't seem rational to top off 1 gallon. 

I'll follow up with a 6 gallon carboy for the kit wines in a few weeks.
I think I will break it in with the 5 gallon batch of Lambrusco for 2-4 weeks, I'll taste is after a week and so on to make sure that I don't get liquid lumber, I'm not too overly thrilled with this wine, so it will be perfect to break it in.

Using the following schedule:

*4 weeks ------1st batch
8 weeks------2nd batch
12 weeks-----3rd batch
16 weeks-----4th batch
20 weeks-----5th batch
24 weeks-----6th batch*

Lambrusco -2-4 weeks to break it in
Chianti - 6-8 weeks
Pinot Noir - 12 weeks (maybe, this wine tastes pretty good as is)
Amarone - 16 weeks then straight to bottle where it will sit for 6 - 12 more months Total bulk and barrel aging 1 yr, Total aging time 2 years 
Amarone - 20 weeks then straight to bottle where it will sit for 6 - 12 more months Total bulk and barrel aging 1 year, Total aging 2 yrs 8 months

When I buy the 6 gallon barrel, I am thinking of either getting a Coastal Red kit to break it in, or maybe even running the Apple Wine/Hard Cider through it, the oak should do wonders for it, if I run the cider, than the Coastal Red or something similar, the Brunello would have a chance to really benefit from the barrel, and possibly the Merlot as well.

I'm tossing around getting a few lugs of Chilean Cab Sav, but I need to talk to my buddy about using his crusher/destemmer and press, if not, a Cab av juice pail. This would really do well in a barrel.

What do you think about this schedule?

Tom


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## Rocky (Feb 12, 2013)

Tom, I think your schedule looks fine. The first thing that I would caution is that I have found that these so called "Angels" consume an awful lot of wine so if you have 5 gallons of wine for a 5 gallon barrel (which is actually 5.3 gallons), you will need a few of bottles to keep it topped. Secondly, I use a stopper with an airlock on my barrels and I find that #8.5's work well on my two 6 gallon Vadai's. I had a couple of solid bungs pop off and luckily for me I was at home when it happened. I am considering buying either a 40 or 50 liter barrel (11 and 13.2 gallons, respectively) for double and triple batches of either kits or buckets. Lastly, I believe you will be really pleased with the change that these barrels bring to your wines. Mine are fairly well "oaked out" so I use oak cubes in them and employ them mostly for the micro-oxygenation which I feel concentrates the wine a bit. 

I had a bottle of wine from JohnT (Carmenere) and that went a long way to convincing me I should try making wine from grapes again. Not sure I want to get back into that but that was some really good wine. I sold my crusher in a moment of weakness a few years back but I kept my press. If I do this, I will need to rent/borrow a crusher. 

Good luck with your barrels.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 12, 2013)

Schedule looks good. Especially on that first batch, taste it weekly to make sure you're not turning it into liquid lumber. Remember though that the oak will decrease some. 

If you're thinking of doing fresh grapes/juice, keep in mind that you don't want to put a kit wine into a barrel that's been exposed to malolactic bacteria. A perfect excuse for a second barrel!


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## ibglowin (Feb 12, 2013)

Tom,

How do you lose an entire gallon in the racking process and only end up with 5 gallons out of 6? Depending on the kit I lose at most two bottles. Are you also against using a cheap commercial top off wine?


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 12, 2013)

The 5 gallons are from Juice pails, I have no idea where that extra gallon went, but I suspect that since these are all from the same source...that there was never 6 gallons to start with.
I have no problem topping off with a commercial wine, I just feel that adding a gallon to 5 gallons, to top it off might be a bit much, or am I over thinking it?


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## Rocky (Feb 12, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> The 5 gallons are from Juice pails, I have no idea where that extra gallon went, but I suspect that since these are all from the same source...that there was never 6 gallons to start with.
> I have no problem topping off with a commercial wine, I just feel that adding a gallon to 5 gallons, to top it off might be a bit much, or am I over thinking it?


 
I think Tom is right here. I have bought juice pails that were filled to the brim and ones that were almost 2" from the top. You never know until you open them.

As far as topping off, I am a "fill up a smaller container" person. My feeling is when you buy wine or use wine you already have, there is no return on the investment. You just use the wine later.


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## ibglowin (Feb 12, 2013)

Got it, I believe Juice pails are more like ~5G when all is said and done. I was think 23L Kits, 6G carboys etc.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 12, 2013)

Mike, I just called Vadai, they are out of 5 gallon barrels, they do have 6 gallon. Would I be correct in assuming that putting 5 gallons of wine in a 6 gallon barrel and topping it off with 1 gal of commercial wine be a bit too much?


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## ibglowin (Feb 12, 2013)

I think its a bit much personally. I am OK with a couple of bottles just not sure about like 5 bottles of commercial. I made all 23L kits from the git go so I purchased 23L Carboys first then 23L Barrels. When I went to fresh grapes I purchased enough to make ~7 gallons of finished wine with each varietal that left me with an extra gallon for the angels. You took a different route with the pails and sounds like you have lots of 5 gallon carboys around. So unless you want to change over to 23L kits or something that you end up making 6G instead of 5G I guess I would stick with the 20L even if it takes awhile to get them in stock.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks Mike, I appreciate the input.
I wanted to really try out just about every type of wine that we liked, so I bought a ton of juice pails and went to town, then I started Hard Cider, Country fruit wine, Meads/Melomel, Kits, and now beer...LOL
What I plan on doing from here on out is to make 10 or 15 gallons of a few select favorites and maybe a few 5 or 6 gallon batches each year, for instance, I plan on making:
10-15 gallons of Amarone
10 Gallons Brunello
10 Gallons Pinot Noir
10 Gallons Moscato
5-10 Gallons Merlot
5-10 Gallons Cabernet Sauvignon (I finally found a Cab Sav that I really liked)
and various smaller 5 or 6 gallon batches.

So I really think that this season I will buy a 5 Gallon (20 Liter) and a 6 gallon (23 liter) barrel, and by next fall, a 10 gallon (40 Liter) barrel.

Thanks for all of your help.


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## ibglowin (Feb 12, 2013)

Just a thought. If you make 10G at a whack (2 pails same stuff) you could pick up a 40L (10.5G). That might get you close enough plus you can leave them in for much longer periods of time. Price is much better as well.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 12, 2013)

Agreed! Sounds like a plan.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 13, 2013)

I like your thinking Mike. Even with a double kit batch (12 gal), you'd have a gallon for the angels, then one "unoaked" gallon to blend in.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 13, 2013)

yep, smart thinking, much appreciated guys.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 18, 2013)

Ok, so I got the official "OK" from my bride to spend on yet another Wine Toy...Oak barrels!
I think that I'm going to go with 2 5 gallon barrels for now, one for the juice bucket wines, and one for the wine kits, even though the kits are 6 gallons, I'll use the extra gallon to top off.
I plan on buying a 10 gallon to follow my plan of making fewer, but larger batches of wine.

I was tossing between buying a Mash Tun setup to go All Grain Beer brewing, or the barrels, I am more than content with the beer that I am making (and I have started making batch after batch) using LME and grain, Austin Homebrew sells fresh LME and it really has made a difference, everyone that has had a few has been very impressed, so I will continue to brew beer and create recipes geared towards our tastes and a few clones as I move forward, and get the barrels so I can start to step up the wine making to the next level.
Now I just need to confirm that I can use my buddies crusher/destemmer and press, and I will start a batch of Cab Sav this Chilean season!
The barrels will get good use!


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## ibglowin (Feb 18, 2013)

Sounds like a good plan!


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 18, 2013)

Ah, I meant to say 40 L instead of 10 gallon as you suggested.


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