# Beginner's diary - Shiraz making



## Obelix (Feb 16, 2018)

Hi,

My fist batch of wine ever - how exciting.

I thought I could share the plan with this frum and hopefully be stopped by you guys before I do something stupid.

My target - 150L of Shiraz.
(I should mention I'm located in Perth, Western Australia.)

I got a press and crusher, a brand new 350L VAT, a brand new 200L VCT, 3 x 50L converted beer kegs, sugar level measure, two galvanised buckets, slowly piling bottles for later.
Grapes pre-ordered - 10 to 12 boxes of 24kg of Swan River Shiraz..

Yeast - Enoferm Shyrah arrived quickly from , Potasium Metabisulfite , American Oak, Yeast food and protect, plus a straining cloth on order. to arrive on the 19th of Feb.

My plan is as follows :
Day 1

Morning - Pick the grapes and crush them into a VAT under my carport. 

Morning - Add the correct amount of Potasium Bisulfite and mix 

Midday - have a nice lunch with the family and friends and get drunk on my friend's last year's wine ;-)

Afternoon - start preparing the yeast
Day 2

Morning Mix the yeast into the VAT 

Add Enoferm Yeast Food and Protect 

Add American OAK in

Cover the VAT

Afternoon - turn the grapes
Days 3 to 6

Twice a day - turn the grapes
Measure sugar levels daily - scream for help to this forum if necessary
Day 7

Press the grapes 

Strain to the VCT - which will be in the house - a bucket at the time I guess...
Day 7+

Monitor fermentation daily
Decide what to do when the fermentation stops...
Are these steps reasonable? What have I missed?


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## Obelix (Feb 16, 2018)

Some issues:

The VAT does not have a bottom pipe installed - didn't have time - so I'll address it using buckets. 

The grapes are maturing fast, and I was told it may be ready as soon as this Sunday (in 2 days) - panic !!!
Need to sanitise equipment, test the crusher on the VAT, etc. 

The order from Easter States has been delivered by Forrest Gump apparently on foot.
Ordered on the 3rd, Australia Post taken it on the 5th of Feb, and won't be here before Monday the 19th. 
This is a problem, as I'll crush the grape on Sunday, and the order contains Bisulfite - hence I need to buy more tomorrow. $20 extra in unnecessary costs. 
The rest (Oak, yeast food etc - could be added later)


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 16, 2018)

Let your hydrometer guide you not a calander.


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## Johnd (Feb 16, 2018)

Have you given any thought to measuring pH, TA, and BRIX? If so, you’ll need those tools, as well as the ability to make adjustments to your must. Perhaps the vineyard can run a quick test or two for you......

This is a red wine, do you plan on MLF? if so, you’ll need MLB and nutrients to conduct that fermentation as well. If your grapes are in good shape, consider skipping the sulfite addition at crush, your yeast will take over, and your MLB will thank you.


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## Obelix (Feb 16, 2018)

DoctorCAD said:


> Let your hydrometer guide you not a calander.



Thanks - a good point, need to read up on the levels - better than timing. 
A slight information overload at the moment - reading too many articles.


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## Obelix (Feb 16, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Have you given any thought to measuring pH, TA, and BRIX? If so, you’ll need those tools, as well as the ability to make adjustments to your must. Perhaps the vineyard can run a quick test or two for you......
> 
> This is a red wine, do you plan on MLF? if so, you’ll need MLB and nutrients to conduct that fermentation as well. If your grapes are in good shape, consider skipping the sulfite addition at crush, your yeast will take over, and your MLB will thank you.



Thanks. - didn't even consider not adding bisulfite - I would rather avoid it if I could. Will monitor the grapes condition upon the picking. 

Not sure I would go too far with the checks - it's all a bit overwhealming at the moment. 
May still get to it as I progress through the process. 

The MLF will depend on the progress - as well as me possibly being dragged away for a few months on a short notice (hopefully not). 
If I find I have time for the MLF, for the learning purpose, I might transfer 50L to a beer keg, place a bunt with a syphon, and do MLF in one keg only. 
The comparison of the results should teach me something for the next year. 
At the moment I don't know what the expressions like "more mouthfull", "more volume", etc. mean in real terms - a difference in the final product test should tell me.


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## Obelix (Feb 16, 2018)

Some progress - the pending parcel arrived today (yeast food and protect, oak chips, straining cloth), and installed a bung to the vat. 
Setting up the stands for the VAT and the Variable Capacity Tank (VCT) using pavers , and assembled the VCT bits. 

Plus a bit of a reprieve - the grapes will be picked up on Monday instead of tomorrow - so all going well. 
The grower advised us that two customers already picked their Shiraz, and the grapes are in a gret condition. 

Still have a few concerns : 
Should I buy 10 or 12 boxes to get 150L - with each box containing 22-24 kilograms. 
Will the 350L vat hold 240 - 270 kg f grapes when crushed (volume wise)

If someone could share their experience with me it would be great.


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## Johnd (Feb 17, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Some progress - the pending parcel arrived today (yeast food and protect, oak chips, straining cloth), and installed a bung to the vat.
> Setting up the stands for the VAT and the Variable Capacity Tank (VCT) using pavers , and assembled the VCT bits.
> 
> Plus a bit of a reprieve - the grapes will be picked up on Monday instead of tomorrow - so all going well.
> ...



This is not an exact science, as grape yields differ. Had to do some conversions to my normal units, pounds and gallons, but you should be just fine. 270 kg is about 600 lbs, which normally would yield around 60 gallons of must, converting 60 gallons back to liters is 227 L, plenty of room for fermenting / cap management. My yield from must volume to finished wine (after all rankings, clearing, etc.) usually runs in the 65% - 70% range, 65% of 227L is 148L, you appear to be on the right track.


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## Obelix (Feb 17, 2018)

Excellent - thanks a lot John. 

After pressing - I need to fit the liquid into a 200L VCT - I'm sure 227 litres of must will reduce to well under 200 litres.

Sorry about the units.. 
I have a bit of a grasp with the Imperial distance and weight units but still struggle with with the volume.


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## Obelix (Feb 17, 2018)

I intent to put the oak chips into the mast and discard before pressing. 
If I put the oak chips into a plastic net - I.E. a potato/onion net liek we find in supermarkets will the plastic react with wine?


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## stickman (Feb 17, 2018)

I just throw the oak right into the must during primary, it gets discarded with the skins during pressing and racking. During the primary, use light toast or untoasted oak if you have it; it is more reactive for binding proteins and preserving native tannin.


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## Obelix (Feb 17, 2018)

Great, that's easy.Thanks.
I presume they will just float on the surface, but will still get a decent soak, as the must is turned daily.
And, yes, purchased untoasted American Oak.


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## Obelix (Feb 18, 2018)

Looking at the yeast nutrient "Fermaid A" in front of me - the label says 10-30grams per hectolitre.
The spec sheet says 35-40 grams per hectolitre. 
Well, they should make up their mind. 

How to add it ? 

Should I stagger it every few days - or add all in one go?
Together with yeast? Separatelly? Before? After?
On a different subject, a friend went to the vinyard today and checked the BRIX - 22.5 - seems spot on...
Definitelly picking the grapes tomorrow morning.


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## stickman (Feb 18, 2018)

Here is the product data sheet that explains the nutrient addition rate. Without knowing the starting nutrient content of the must, you can only estimate the addition, which is the reason for rough ranges provided on labels.


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## Obelix (Feb 18, 2018)

Thanks Stickman. 
Makes it more clear now. 
I obviously don't have any means to test the YAN levels so will go with 10-20gm. 
The temperature prediction is al in 30C so I've been luckly. Usually, this time of the year we get scorchers in high 30s to 42C.


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## REDRUM (Feb 18, 2018)

Good luck Obelix!
I am scheduled to pick shiraz for this Saturday. Baume is at 13 (i.e. Brix 23.5 or so) and will go up a bit but this week is looking quite warm so hopefully it doesn't spike too much & the acid remains balanced.
Also getting grenache on the same day ... a later-ripening grape so we'll see!


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## REDRUM (Feb 18, 2018)

Just found this article specifically about shiraz - looks like it might be useful!
https://winemakermag.com/648-super-syrah


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## Obelix (Feb 18, 2018)

Redrum - some of my friends are picking their Grenache on Wednesday from the same vinyard.
30 boxes of Grenache - they'll mix in 5 boxes of Shiraz. The owner said the timing is right, and if they don't pick up soon, they may miss the best of it.
Let us know how it goes for you.

I was worried last night as the tropical low kicked in - (a cyclone up North affecting the weather here), and some rain sprinked - but luckily it hasn't really rained.

Picked the grapes this morning. 12 boxes at 25kg of grapes in each.
Crushed into the VAT - the machine crushed it in 10 minutes. The level is appx 300L. More than expected. I was actually surprised it fitted.
The extracted juice shows 23.5 BRIX.

The grape was drying a bit, but is otherwise looking very healthy. Any grapes with mould on them were cut and left on the ground. Not much of these at all.

Mixed 2 and half flat teaspoons of Potassium Metabisulfite.
Also added 125g of American oak chips.


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## Obelix (Feb 18, 2018)

re: Super Syrah
Thanks Redrum - JohnD already provided it to me via another thread. 
That's a good one. Very educational.


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## Obelix (Feb 19, 2018)

Diary continues:

Yesterday -
Yeast water - 1.5L of tap water placed in a jug so chlorine can evaporate from it before yeast is added tomorrow

20/02
Max Temperature expected - 29C
Morning Temperature 25C
GoFerm – 80 grams dissolved into 1.5L of luke-warm water
Enoferm Syrah – 60gm of yeast added to above
15 minutes later – some juice added - left to adjust the temperature
Fermaid A – dissolved in 1L of warm water and added to must before yeast
Must temperature 22C - Yeast equalised to 24C – added to must
Gave it a good mix - cover
4pm - must stirred - obviously fermenting.
Pretty hard to move the mass - now smells a bit like bread doe


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## Obelix (Feb 20, 2018)

The initial stress behind me... have a few days to consider next steps.

At the moment, I'm unclear at what level of BRIX to press. Reading up on it - confusing and sometimes, conflicting info. 

And as per John's advice above - considering how to introduce MLF.
In practical terms, in Western Australia - I can order Enoferm Alpha, Lalvin VP41, Omega packaged for my amount of wine. 
Either seem reasonable, with the same price. 

Unfortuantelly, the descriptors don't mean much to me at this stage:

Mouthfeel
fruit esters 

low diacetyl 

low degradation of acetaldehyde
So may toss a coin. But learning heaps every day.


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## Johnd (Feb 20, 2018)

Obelix said:


> The initial stress behind me... have a few days to consider next steps.
> 
> At the moment, I'm unclear at what level of BRIX to press. Reading up on it - confusing and sometimes, conflicting info.
> 
> ...



I’m a VP41 fan, and typically run MLF concurrent with AF, coinoculation. 41 is pretty much a workhorse, I recall seeing folks have good results with Alpha as well. I don’t use sulfite at crush if I intend to MLF the wine, as you don’t want sulfite to inhibit the progress, and try to get a pH over 3.4. Most mlb are good with a little sulfite, pH above 3.2, temps in 70’s+, and ABV under 15%, but after a few struggles, it’s nothing but business now. Coinoculation puts mlb to work in a 0% ABV situation, with warm temps from fermentation, a properly adjusted pH, good nutrient protocol, and no sulfite, it’s usually done a few short weeks after pressing.


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## Obelix (Feb 20, 2018)

Thanks John, happy to use what works. I'll order 41. 
I read some arguments over pro-con coinoculation - and only got me more confused. 
I can see a loginc in your reasoning. Will try that next year. 

In this case, at least 4-5 vines had soem bunches with a white mould on them. These bunches were discarded or - the mouldy bits cut off - and yet, I felt it was prudent to protect the grape. Having said that, at 2.5 flat teaspoons on 300kg of grapes, I may have not added enough. 

Hopefully, this small amount will not interfere with the secondary fermentation. 
I was planning to add it in once I see the primary fermentation has copleted in the VCT.


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## Obelix (Feb 21, 2018)

V41 on order...
Turning the cap twice a day.
Yesterday (21/02) - BRIX was down to 21 - will measure this afternoon again - the fermentation seems quite obvious and active - the smell is very nice now.

Edit: 1:30 - cap turned
Hydrometer shows 16. Quite a drop from yesterday. Tried a few drops - still very sweet.
8pm - turned again. The cap is lifting higher. Will be 3 times a day from now on.


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## Obelix (Feb 23, 2018)

23/02 - cap turned three times. The hydrometer shows 10 - and the fermentation still going strong.
Tried the juice - a great taste - with a slight bit of astringency - may be due to the stems in the mix - but I would sign on the taste right now.
Stoked by the progress 

Any advice on when to press? When the hydrometer reads 3-5? Before - after? 
A friend suggested to press now, but I think it's too early. 

I have a slight concern - some liquid losses due to natural evaporation - should these be re-covered with water, or just accepted as a part of the process?


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## Johnd (Feb 23, 2018)

Obelix said:


> 23/02 - cap turned three times. The hydrometer shows 10 - and the fermentation still going strong.
> Tried the juice - a great taste - with a slight bit of astringency - may be due to the stems in the mix - but I would sign on the taste right now.
> Stoked by the progress
> 
> ...



When to press is dependent upon many factors, consider extraction goals; timing with your life, weather fluctuations, etc. and press when it’s right. If you’re tasting big tannins and fruit, and have great color at 5 Brix, then press. Wait longer if you desire to increase extraction. I recall that you’re fermenting warm, and outside, and expect you’ve had some nice temp spikes up into the upper 80’s, that’s good for extraction. You’re at 10 now, it’ll hit 5 and below before you know it. 

Never had any appreciable amount of evaporation during AF, but I’d accept it as a blessing, and not add water. 

Post pictures, or it didn’t happen!!


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## Arne (Feb 23, 2018)

Bet instead of evaporation the must expands as it ferments. Gets full of co2 and this is why you have to use a larger fermenter when you are doing primary ferment. As it slows down, some of the co2 goes out and the must looks like you have less in there. I would say nuthin to worry about. Arne.


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## Obelix (Feb 23, 2018)

Thanks guys.
The evaporation is not significant - was just wondering what other people do. Will leave it alone. 
The cap seems to act as a lid - until I mix it. 

I was so lucky with the temperature. Even - day by day - around 30C. 
So it seems I may press as soon as Sunday - after 6 days.
Need to prepare and test the press function tomorrow. Don't wish to find it faulty when I need it 

Yes the photos - how did I forget to take photos. :-(
My wife took a photo just after we crushed it. I'll try to remember to take another one tomorrow.


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## Obelix (Feb 24, 2018)

This morning I turned the cap, and again at 1pm, when I took the measurement of 5 Brix.

Tried the wine and it seemed perfect with a ting of sweetness. Figured the sweetness will ferment out and it can only get worse from here so - on a short notice my wife and I pressed the wine ahead of the plan.

A laborious process - drain the liquids into a 15L bucket - through a kitchen strainer - and carry it into the VCT in the house.
Clumsy but no other options at the moment.

Around 170-180 L transferred. The rest was pressed - another 30 litres appx.

Thought of separating these 30L as an "inferior" batch, but after tasting it and finding it great, decided to add it into the VCT which now contains at least 200L of wine.

Then another 6L squeezed from the press transferred to 2L flagons - we are likely to drink it through the week with friends. It tastes fantastic.

I can feel the smell of fermentation in the spare room where the VCT is.
Will likely start the MLF in a few days, but honestly it's great as is.

May still drain 50L and stop it with sulphites - without applying the MLF Bacteria. How else to learn the difference?

Took us around 2.5 - 3 hours - including washing out the equipment.

Took a few clumsy photos - will try to upload tomorrow.

So much fun


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## REDRUM (Feb 24, 2018)

Awesome!
If it hasn't fermented out dry yet, you might have some issues with fizz when you open your flagons though ....


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## Obelix (Feb 24, 2018)

- true Redrum - the flagon tops are only placed on top. You can see the fermentation still going on. 
Just had a glass - what a nice drink. Relly hopign the process continues as successful as it has been so far. 

Added a photo in the post above. May add more when I get hold of my wife's phone.


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## Obelix (Feb 25, 2018)

A final picture after pressing attached 
The VCT is still fermenting - 4 days after pressing. 

Washing one beerkeg to pour in 50L of wine which will not be MLF-ed. 
This batch will be separated once the fermentation stops - as a part of the gross lees removal. 
Need to calculate a correct amount of sulphites - waiting for the ph meter to arrive for that. 
Also waiting for the bungs and airlocks for the kegs.

So far, the most important lesson learned was to order everything earlier.

A few concerns : 

The keg appears clean and wonder if I need to sterilise it given I'll add sulphites upon the storage. 

The VCT airlock is the one with a marble - a syphon with water bubbles - this is quiet. Hard to say when finished - except for the smell. 
If I pour out 2L of wine into a container to measure BRIX - can I return it through the top? This required opening the lid and exposing the wine to oxygen.
Maybe I should get some kind of a narrow measure? 

A pending removal of gross lees will mean transferring the liquid into a temporary storage until I clean up the VCT tank. 
Then I'll have to transfer the wine back for the next step (MLF) 
Being a bit short of having a commercial winery, I'll be using a bucket. This will be exposing the wine to air - is this a problem? I cannot add sulphites before the MLF. 
Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Johnd (Feb 26, 2018)

Obelix said:


> A final picture after pressing attached
> The VCT is still fermenting - 4 days after pressing.
> 
> Washing one beerkeg to pour in 50L of wine which will not be MLF-ed.
> ...



You should sanitize everything that comes into contact with your wine, period. Pour a little sulfit solution into your vessel, switch it around to coat all surfaces, remove the excess, and you’ll be ready to go. 

You can remove and return wine, again, sanitize everything. I have a hydrometer with a thin piece of fishing line tied th the top, it can be sanitized, lowered into a narrow mouthed clear vessel for a reading, and pulled back out. The less you expose your unprotected wine to air, the better, so be efficient. 

Again, for gross lees racking, sanitize and be efficient. There will probably be lots of CO2 released during this racking process, it’ll help to protect your wine to some degree. After the gross lees racking, fermentation should be done and you should also be working to limit headspace in your vessels, the VCT is easy, but be attentive to the others.


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## Obelix (Feb 26, 2018)

Thanks a lot John. 

What worries me is that in a 50L keg with wine I need to put roughly 1 flat teaspoon of potassiom metabisulphite - if I use a few teaspoons in the sanitising solution and don't rinse the container with water I'll leave too.much of sulfite in. 
Is this really a problem or would it evaporate/ bind with the air?


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## Johnd (Feb 26, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Thanks a lot John.
> 
> What worries me is that in a 50L keg with wine I need to put roughly 1 flat teaspoon of potassiom metabisulphite - if I use a few teaspoons in the sanitising solution and don't rinse the container with water I'll leave too.much of sulfite in.
> Is this really a problem or would it evaporate/ bind with the air?



Even if a little solution remains behind, the impact is negligible, don't fret it, just dump it out.


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## Obelix (Feb 26, 2018)

<After the gross lees racking, fermentation should be done and you should also be working to limit headspace in your vessels>
Will be careful, thanks. 
Planning to inoculate the MLF (V41) into the VCT and then leave alone for 4-6 weeks to ferment further - then I'll add the sulfite
50L will be in a keg - filled to the top - without the MLF - sulphites added so should hopefully be OK.


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## Obelix (Feb 26, 2018)

A friend showed up with 150kg of greanche yesterday - if we could crush and press it straight away. 
After alll the washing and cleaning up, all over again  
Funny thing , pressing Grenache juice straight away...but I won't be drinking it, so...


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## Obelix (Feb 27, 2018)

27/02 - Tasted the wine from the VCT. Seems to be getting Shiraz wine character. The sugar is almost gone.
Also the yeast and sulphur smell is much less intense - I would say, the fermenting is nearly over. 
Two flagons are at a different stage of fermenting - so they taste different from each other, and both taste sweeter, and less mature than the VCT one. 
The flagons are filled from the last press so it was expected. Not sure why two of them taste different. 

Waiting for a silicone bung and syphone for the beer keg, then I'll rake it. Should arrive tomorrow. 
Again : the same lesson learned - purchase everything early...


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## Obelix (Feb 28, 2018)

Confused with a dose of fear...
The wine is still slowly fermenting.
Haven't really measured the Brix since, but tried it and still has some sweetness in it.

So reading the Red Wine Making Guide and in there it says to rake it from the gross lees after 1-2 days.

I was under impression the fermentation needs to fully stop first. So I'm over by 3-4 days.

How long should the primary go for, after pressing? 

So likely to rake it tomorrow - finished or not. Hope not to mess it up...


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## Johnd (Feb 28, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Confused with a dose of fear...
> The wine is still slowly fermenting.
> Haven't really measured the Brix since, but tried it and still has some sweetness in it.
> 
> ...



You should be pressing somewhere close to 1.000, or just above. I typically wait no more than 3 days after pressing to rack off of the gross lees. In three days, with fermentation slowing (but not necessarily over) most of the heavy stuff will have accumulated on the bottom of your vessel, that's the crap you want to leave behind. After that, don't rack til MLF is over, unless you did a bad job with your first racking and have a lot of gross lees still left.


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## REDRUM (Feb 28, 2018)

Maybe while it's still fermenting down you should just stir the lees every now & then to keep the particles in action, and then when the wine has fermented dry wait for the lees to settle & then rack.


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## Obelix (Feb 28, 2018)

Thanks John.

I pressed it when the Brix was 5. That's above 1000 - may wait next year to ferment to zero before pressing it.

I'll rake it either today or tomorrow.
That will be 5 days after pressing. 
Also check the Brix then. Likely inoculate the MLF then - or a few days after.


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## Obelix (Feb 28, 2018)

REDRUM said:


> Maybe while it's still fermenting down you should just stir the lees every now & then to keep the particles in action, and then when the wine has fermented dry wait for the lees to settle & then rack.



Thanks Redrum - I seem a bit late with raking so will skip that.
Do people actually do that? Generally everyone says gross lees is not good.


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## Obelix (Mar 1, 2018)

Right... raked. 
The Brix was 0 actually, while there was plenty of activity still going on. (?)

There was around 1 to 1.5 cm of gross lees at the bottom. 
When I got close to gross lees the activity was quite strong. I suspect the fermentation may slow down now that it was removed.
As I returned the wine to the clean VCT the MLF bacteria was inoculated.

50L of wine transferred to a beer keg and half a teaspoon of sulphite added. This wine will not be MLF-ed. A bung with an airlock used on the keg - slowly bubbling
The wine in the VCT showed no obvious activity.


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## Obelix (Mar 2, 2018)

I'm confused. 
What's fermenting if the Brix is zero?
I fear it may fernent all the way to winegar... :-(


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## Johnd (Mar 2, 2018)

Obelix said:


> I'm confused.
> What's fermenting if the Brix is zero?
> I fear it may fernent all the way to winegar... :-(



Sugar. Wine is dry at SG .990, which happens to be -2.58 BRIX.


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## Doug’s wines (Mar 2, 2018)

.990 with temperature correction . Small detail and impact, but it's hot down under right now.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 2, 2018)

Obelix said:


> I'm confused.
> What's fermenting if the Brix is zero?
> I fear it may fernent all the way to winegar... :-(



Just to expound on JohnD's answer a bit: Alcohol is less dense than water. So, as the sugars are consumed and alcohol is produced, the wine gets less dense. When it reaches a SG of 1.000, there is water, alcohol, and sugar left. When all of the sugars are gone, the result will be less dense than water.


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## Obelix (Mar 2, 2018)

Thanks for explaining this guys.
Never connected the dots - quite logical when you think about it 

I am surprised there is any sugar left by now given a lot of activity 
It was going down 5+ per day and now the last 2 seem to be going for a long time.

How long should I expect this to go on for?


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## Johnd (Mar 2, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Thanks for explaining this guys.
> Never connected the dots - quite logical when you think about it
> 
> I am surprised there is any sugar left by now given a lot of activity
> ...



Every ferment / must is different, sometimes a few days, but can easily trickle on for weeks. Bottom line, it's done when it's done. When you've pressed and subsequently racked off of the gross lees a few days later, inoculated your MLB into the wine, control your headspace and let AF finish, it'll be done long before MLF. If you have some wine you aren't adding MLB to, monitor your SG, and when it doesn't change for 3 days in a row (assuming you're below .998), AF is done, you can sulfite and begin aging / clearing.


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## Obelix (Mar 2, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Every ferment / must is different, sometimes a few days, but can easily trickle on for weeks. Bottom line, it's done when it's done. When you've pressed and subsequently racked off of the gross lees a few days later, inoculated your MLB into the wine, control your headspace and let AF finish, it'll be done long before MLF. If you have some wine you aren't adding MLB to, monitor your SG, and when it doesn't change for 3 days in a row (assuming you're below .998), AF is done, you can sulfite and begin aging / clearing.



I may have done it all wrong then, as I added MLF immediately after raking.

Also - the 50 L separated into a beer keg to mature without MLF - I added sulphite immediately after raking.

The keg has an air lock and I can see it bubbling. For the VCT is hard to say if fermenting as it's not a water airlock but I can imagine it's the same.


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## Obelix (Mar 2, 2018)

John, when you say "control the head space" - I locked the VCT lid about 1-2 inch above the liquid level. The lid obiously has an airlock. 

The keg is about 2 inches to the top - but conically shaped - I could hardly fit in another litre of liquid. 
Have a silicone bung and a water airlock on top.

Would this be acceptable?


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## Johnd (Mar 2, 2018)

Obelix said:


> John, when you say "control the head space" - I locked the VCT lid about 1-2 inch above the liquid level. The lid obiously has an airlock.
> 
> The keg is about 2 inches to the top - but conically shaped - I could hardly fit in another litre of liquid.
> Have a silicone bung and a water airlock on top.
> ...



I don't have a VCT, hopefully someone that does will chime in here, but 1-2" seems to me to be a lot of headspace when the diameter of the VCT is considered, I'd be trying to have the underside of the lid in contact with the top surface of the wine, but don't know if that's practical or even possible.

As for the other vessel, try to have as little air space as possible, just a few cubic cm if possible. See the pic of a well topped vessel for reference...................


Edit: I should have added that while you still have some active AF going on, the headspace is less critical, as your wine is still producing CO2, which protects it. As AF draws to a close, that protection subsides as well, that's why the suggestion was made that you begin to control the headspace.............


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## cmason1957 (Mar 2, 2018)

When I have helped out at a local winery and we have racked into and out of their VCT's, we sanitize the lid and set it right on the liquid, no airgap there at all. A 1 inch airgap across a 3 or 4 foot diameter seems like a lot of air.


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## Obelix (Mar 2, 2018)

Thanks guys.
I just followed an instruction from YouTube. I will lower it a bit. Easy.
It cannot sit on the surface while fermenting though.
The airlock sticks out 6-7mm so if it sits on the surface, the CO2 can't escape an actually pushes the liquid out. Maybe when it's done fetmenting.
May add another 1/2 litre to the beer keg to be a bit closer.


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## Arne (Mar 3, 2018)

When it is fermenting strong the size of the airgap is not going to make any or much difference. I just have a towel over mine. When is slows down and you are getting ready to let it sit, clear and age you do not want so much air getting to it then.


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## Obelix (Mar 3, 2018)

Arne said:


> When it is fermenting strong the size of the airgap is not going to make any or much difference. I just have a towel over mine. When is slows down and you are getting ready to let it sit, clear and age you do not want so much air getting to it then.



Thanks Arne. 
I'll leave it to finish then sterilise the lid and drop it to the surface, or near the surface.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 3, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> When I have helped out at a local winery and we have racked into and out of their VCT's, we sanitize the lid and set it right on the liquid, no airgap there at all. A 1 inch airgap across a 3 or 4 foot diameter seems like a lot of air.



I also help out a local wineries and you are correct about the lid. As long as fermentation is complete.


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## Obelix (Mar 7, 2018)

The $12 ph digital meter arrived yesterday. Run the calibration but it was already correct. Happy so far.
Then done the first stir since the inoculation of MLF and checked the ph.
Reads 3.8. Tried the ph in the non-MLFed batch - also 3.8.

Does this require any action? Seems a low acidity.

The 50L non MLF-ed wine still ferementing - but finaly showing a bit of a slowdown. Used to bubble every 2 secs - now ever 5-6 - finally...

Poured out a bottle for "tasting" from the MLF batch. Maturing nicely. Very promissing.

Don't want to taste the one in the keg - it would impact the head space.

In the VCT I cound see some bubbles - hard to say if it is the yeast or the MLF (or both).

This small batch of Grenache - whuch was pressed a day after crushing - the fermentation fully finished 3 days ago. 
It's quite muddy and doesn't taste nice - a lot of particles in it - settling on the lower 1/3 of the container. 
Thinking of clearing it up into a Rose. I'm keen to separate it from the particles - the taste is unpleasant.
Is it too early to use egg white?


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## REDRUM (Mar 8, 2018)

Where did you order the $12 pH meter from? I'm thinking I should invest in one...


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## Ajmassa (Mar 8, 2018)

For the non-MLF wine- Id add just a touch of tartaric acid after it’s finished fermenting and sulfited and all that. Something near 3.6 would be more comforting. 
The MLF wine- you may get differing opinions- but just ride it out as is— making sure that headspace is handled is crucial since you lack a lot of acid protection and no sulphites yet. Once MLF finished the ph should change slightly. Don’t wanna adjust during though. 
Btw Amazon has meters for real cheap Redrum. Whether $12 or $1,200 I’ve learned that as long as they are cared for properly they should work well. proper care is tedious but necessary. Careful tho. My 1st meter was $12 from amazon. 90% of meters need to be calibrated with specific buffer solutions and probe kept wet 100% of the time. I had no clue about any of that at 1st. 
Most meters used in winemaking use 4.0 and 7.0 buffers. My cheapo needed 9, 6.86, and 4.04 and had granulated packets included. Huge hassle to mix for every calibration. 4 and 7 is what ya want.

* disclaimer- just don’t take this info straight to the bank. I’m just a noob offering advice to another noob. The blind leading the blind. *


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## Obelix (Mar 8, 2018)

Hi Redrum.
eBay - this model is from $9 and is the mist common model. Looks like a highlighter pen.
I looked for a supplier with a good feedback so paid $12 delivered.
Had two calibration packets and an instruction how to calibrate - simple. The use - dip in the liquid and read the number. Simple 
Well worth the investment.

This is where I bought it from (need to select the PH Tester from the dropdown list) 
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/322400566552


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## Obelix (Mar 8, 2018)

Thanks Ajmassa.
Will let it finish then, and measure again and adjust. 

I don't think I'll stir the MLF batch again. I am uncomfortable to expose it to air again. Better to allow it more time to complete and not remove the lid.
Whatever CO2 has been generated should stay under the lid and provide a buffer


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## Ajmassa (Mar 8, 2018)

Unfamiliar with your tank. But don’t you have a way stir through airlock hole without removing entire lid? I’ve seen videos of a metal rod with a couple bends in it with a chain hooked to the end inserted though the bunghole of a barrel. Was how some wineries would stir the lees for battonage or MLF. Tho stirring the lees isn’t exactly 100% crucial. Many ppl do not do it.
I use a racking cane to stir so very little wine is displaced and overflows (learned the hard way). Depending on how deep the tank is I’m sure you could fabricate something similar so that lid can stay put.


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## Obelix (Mar 8, 2018)

Thanks Ajmassa,
the airlock can be removed but the lid needs to taken off and the inner nut removed. I would be left with a hole then, and I'll still need the airlock for a while .
I'm glad for you comment on the lees stirring not being 100% crucial. Will probably just leave it as is.
If it takes an extra 4-6 weeks - so be it.
I'll rake it again after 4-6 weeks, and then let it settle for some months with the sulphites.


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## Obelix (Mar 9, 2018)

Added 3/4 of an egg white into this small Grenache batch. Let's see if it would turn into a Rose after 10 days...


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## Stressbaby (Mar 10, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> For the non-MLF wine- Id add just a touch of tartaric acid after it’s finished fermenting and sulfited and all that. Something near 3.6 would be more comforting.



After 5 years of winemaking I changed my approach. The acidity you taste isn't reflected in the pH it is reflected in the TA.

As an example, right now I have two 5g batches of white, a CA Sauv Blanc and Vignole sourced locally. The acidity by taste is fairly close, and by TA it is 9 and 10.5. But the pH wildly different, 2.7 vs 3.5. The pH then just guides the sulfite additions.

Check your TA and taste the wine before you add anything and then decide. If I got 5 and flabby, then I'd adjust; but if I got 6.5 with decent taste, I'd probably leave it.


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## Obelix (Mar 10, 2018)

Thanks.
How does one check the TA?

3.8 is still within acceptable range for red wines - if just s bit on a higher end of acceptable range. Hopefully to be slightly reduced aftrr the MLF.

The taste... It's currently complicated - the process is still going on - the taste changing every time I try it. Losing fruitiness and gaining complexity.
Hard to say where it will end up.
The process is heaps of fun though


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## Ajmassa (Mar 11, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> After 5 years of winemaking I changed my approach. The acidity you taste isn't reflected in the pH it is reflected in the TA.
> 
> As an example, right now I have two 5g batches of white, a CA Sauv Blanc and Vignole sourced locally. The acidity by taste is fairly close, and by TA it is 9 and 10.5. But the pH wildly different, 2.7 vs 3.5. The pH then just guides the sulfite additions.
> 
> Check your TA and taste the wine before you add anything and then decide. If I got 5 and flabby, then I'd adjust; but if I got 6.5 with decent taste, I'd probably leave it.



I agree. I suggested a touch of tartaric for protection purposes since it is 3.8 and reducing the total amount of so2 needed during aging. But your right. Don’t wanna adjust w/o also knowing TA. And adjust by taste +TA while making sure ph stays in a safe range. 
TA year kits are cheap. Like $10. Typically 2 ways to go about getting the level- by color change or by using in conjunction with your ph meter. And reading the exact amount solution used to get to that endpoint. A 10-20 mL plastic syringe and a bottle of sodium hydroxide is all you need. The actual kits come with everything you’d need.


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## Obelix (Mar 13, 2018)

Wonder how people made wine centuries/millenia ago


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## Arne (Mar 13, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Wonder how people made wine centuries/millenia ago


Wandering thru the trees and found a spot where honey had been dripping into a hollow. Dip in a finger and take a taste. Man that is good. Next day with head pounding light bulb came on with "I have a good idea." The rest is history. Arne.


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## Obelix (Mar 13, 2018)

However did they manage without PH meters, TA meters, sulfites, hydrometers... 

This balancing act is becoming slightly overwhelming :-(

Tasted the MLF wine today - really comming together nicely. May just let the nature take it's course.
Once the fermentation is over, I'll just add the minimal amount of sulfite and hope for the best.


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## Johnd (Mar 13, 2018)

Obelix said:


> However did they manage without PH meters, TA meters, sulfites, hydrometers...
> 
> This balancing act is becoming slightly overwhelming :-(



They didn't know or worry about such things, sometimes the wines were better than other times, sometimes they just went bad. As we've learned and understand more about the process, we're able to supplement Mother Nature to produce a more favorable set of variables, and hopefully, more successful outcomes. When fruit is good and picked ripe, your process isn't much different than theirs, although you probably have more modern tools, they picked, fermented, separated wine from skins, stored, bottled and drank, just like you....


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## Obelix (Mar 13, 2018)

Wonder when the sulphites were discovered. As s kid I remember Sulphur strips - these would be light up and hung into the barells through the hole to burn inside - to control the empty space on top of the wine . So the use of Sulphur is not new.


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## Johnd (Mar 13, 2018)

Though i have not validated its authenticity or accuracy, here's and interesting article about sulfites in wine.............

http://www.academicwino.com/2014/09/history-sulfite-use-wine.html/


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## Obelix (Mar 13, 2018)

Quite interesting. Seems to be in use for some millennia.

In my home town (Split, Croatia), a Roman emperor built a 100m x 100m palace on top of active sulphuric hot springs and built pools where nobles bathed and "cured illnesses".
These springs are still in use today.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 13, 2018)

We didn't make it into Split, so the best I can do is some pix of Trogir.


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## Obelix (Mar 16, 2018)

So I need to leave in two weeks - and will be away for 2 months.

The non-MLF batch seemed to have completed the fermentation. 
The airlock is not bubbling, so I am happy to leave it as is and forget this one until I come back.

The MLF batch in the VCT - I am at loss if the MLF is finished. The airlock type doesn't give anything away.
The PH shows 4.1 - so a slight increase fron 3.9 I measured a few days ago. Something still happening. Having said that, the outdoor temperatures were in high 30s C then. Today wss 25C.

I would like to reduce the head space by lowering the lid to sit on the wine - but if still fermenting - this will cause problems.

Thinking of raking 50L into a beer keg where I can place the "S" airlock into the bung airlock and see it bubbling. 

With only two weeks left, need to complete the process so it survives two months while I am away without anything exploding, spilling, going off...

Any advice given the situation?


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## Slappy (Mar 17, 2018)

Rack it into sterilised keg with minimal headspace and put the airlock on and you'll have no dramas. 2 months away and you'll be pretty certain the mlf is well done on your return. Rack then and sulfite. Don't think you have many other options. Oxygen is more an enemy than time and the keg will ensure your o2 exposure is at the minimum. Sounds like it's all coming along well


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## Obelix (Mar 18, 2018)

Thanks Slappy. 
Have only two kegs available. I'll have 40 litres left in the VCT still. 
I guess it's a risk reduction - limit any possible issue to 40 litres only. 
Will do it through the week.


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## Obelix (Mar 18, 2018)

As per Ajmassa advice I added a bit of Tartaric Acid to the non-MLF-ed wine.
Tried a sip before and it tastes more astringent than the MLFed wine. I now understand the difference better and will MLF the lot next year. 
The PH was checked at 3.9 and I added 20g of Tartaric acid 
(0.4g per litre) - being on the cautious side. 
As I added the crystals into a half a glass of wine - there was an instant change in the colour. 

So 100g of Tartaric acid in the supermarket is $2.75.
100g in the brew shop is $8.
Go figure...


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## Ajmassa (Mar 18, 2018)

No TA check? Just to make sure it’s not out of whack. And New ph? Should be able to recheck rather quickly and And also notice a taste difference. 
Just Don’t add any more! Acid adjustments are serious business. Too easy to overcorrect then over overcorrect again. 
Do you use a scale? You can do a bench trial on sample amount to gauge ph movement and taste.


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## Obelix (Mar 18, 2018)

Haven't realised the Ph change would reflect so quickly. Will check tomorrow. 
Various articles recommend 1g per litre to reduce the Ph by 0.1.
Given the Ph was 3.9, I should be adding 3g per litre - 150 grams.
Adding 0.4g per litre seemed conservative. (?)


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## Ajmassa (Mar 18, 2018)

Just want to pass this info along. 
Winemakers in California will add tartaric to the must. Much easier to dial in ph before AF. And let’s the fermentation help to integrate everything together. 
I’ve read the magic number to shoot for is 3.63 ph. As winter sets in and temps drop salt tartrates will crash out of the wine. Forming crystals at the bottom of the vessel. When a ph is below 3.65 - the tartrate crystals dropping will cause ph to drop as well as TA. When ph above 3.65 the tartrate crystals dropping with RAISE ph and lower TA. 
So if under 3.65 and dropping more will help stabelize the wine as time passes. But if over 3.65 and rising as tartrates drop? Less stable. So2 less effective requiring more so2 protection. 
So they will adjust the must and only very slight adjustments later if needed. 
Now I’m still learning all of this but after my own mistakes I personally think it is better to have a slightly higher ph than to add >.5 g/L to the wine later on. 
Many good commercial wines have higher ph too. Not suggesting anything. Just passing along info.


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## Obelix (Mar 18, 2018)

While reading up on this, I realised it's usually added into the must.
I didn't know that, and didn't have the Ph meter either - so my options are limited to adding (or not) now. 

What made me action this is a big difference in the amount of sulfite required with the Ph of 4.0 as opposed to 3.6.

I'll see how this develops and will form an opinion on whether to add it to the must next year. 
The MLF-ed wine tastes really good - so already decided to MLF the lot next year. 
Also if the MLF ed wine taste stays good I'll avoid adding anything and will try to control the maturing through sterilisation, the head space and minimal addition if sulfites. 

My first batch ever - so learning a lot.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 18, 2018)

Without a science background and this just being a hobby- learning and *retaining all the wine chemistry can be a little much. 
One thing I can say with confidence is that as soon as you think “I got this” and feel like your JoePro Winemaker- the wine gods throw you a curveball and knock you off tilt.


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## Obelix (Mar 19, 2018)

Ha, ha...true.
The Ph of the non-MLF wine seems the same - the taste now has a slight lemony ting. So, haven't really achieved much. Will stay away from the chemsitry from now on 

Also, finally properly tasted this non-MLF wine - and (apart from the lemony taste I introduced) decided it's inferior to the MLF-ed wine so will try to inoculate V41 bacteria and improve it. .
Have about a gram left, and will add it in.
It may not survive - given I added sulphites 3 weeks ago, but I added a minimal amount so it just may,
Boy, am I learning for the next year   

Edit: 
Added bacteria, and the head space filled with the MLF-ed wine - so to strengthen the bacteria.
Fingers crossed...


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## Obelix (Mar 19, 2018)

Bottled this small batch of Grenache (a small mishandled batch- 20 litres) 10 days after adding the egg white and 2 days after adding tartaric acid.
The taste was poor so I use it as an experimental batch.

The egg white nicely clarified it to near-rose colour, and the Tartaric acid surprisingly improved the taste. Should further improve after refrigeration. 

The Tartaric taste gives it a hint of chenin blanc - so I decided to stay away from the Tartaric in the rest of Shiraz.
All a very useful learning.


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## Obelix (Mar 20, 2018)

So finally...the contents of the VCT transferred to two beer kegs. 
So I now have 150L in three kegs, and probably another 10L in the VCT. 
Well, from the original total volume, 6L was used as a juice, 6L was spent in "tasting" the progress and these 10L in the VCT will continue to be "Tasted"
So as John predicted originally, I'll end up with the original plan of 150L mature wine. 

I can see the kegs already slowly bubbling. 
Even the one I recently inoculated the MLF bacteria and which has some sulfites. . 

Two slight concerns:

The wine transfer to kegs exposed it to air. Can't add sulfites while the MLF si working. 
However, the wine is now in the kegs, filled to the brim and hopefully won't go off. 

Ph is 4.1 - it's high, but I'll leave it and cross my fingers. 
Possibly fine it in June to reduce the colour loss due to the low acidity. The finign may change the Ph. But still undecided - fine or not. May fine 10L as a test
So I think, that's it for the next 3 months. Won't touch it, taste it, open it...
A formal tasting will be mid, late June when I'll be either great, or a vinegar  
I'll consider if it needs fining then. 

Thank you all who helped me for your valuable input. 
I'll "wake" you up in June to blame you if something went wrong or boast my wine making skills if it turns out OK


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## Obelix (Mar 20, 2018)




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## REDRUM (Mar 20, 2018)

Looking forward to hearing how it turns out Obelix!


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## Obelix (Jul 3, 2018)

Finally !!! I "cracked open" the first barell - if one can "crack open" a beer keg 

Must say mightily impressed by the outcome. I would gladly pay $20-$25 for such a wine in shops.
That is, the wine may be even better, however, I don't usually buy wine that expensive...
A friend help me bottle it and he was impressed. My wife too - and she is hard to impress.

A nice smell, a very rich taste, and a rich dark read colour. Don't know the alcohol level - I woudl estimate it to 13.5%.
Bought some yellow labels from Officeworx and marked the batch and "the bin".
Bottled about 15 bottles with corks, and the rest with the "Novatwist" screw-top.

Very happy with the outcome 

One concern is the Ph - measured at 4.6 - I haven't used sulphites in the wine, except to sterilise the kegs and the bottles.
I'm not going to correct it - although thinking of adding sulphites into the remaining barells.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 3, 2018)

If it really is a pH of 4.6 it should be brought down. Normally a red wine will be at 3.6. That doesn't sound lie much of a difference, until you remember that the pH scale is logarithmic, so a change of 1 really means 10x. And your wine is 10x less acidic than normal. I don't have the SO2 charts in front of me, but it is going to take a bushel basket of sulphite to protect your wine.

That being said I wouldn't expect a wine with pH of 4.6 to taste all that great. I would imagine the taste to be quite lacking.


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## mainshipfred (Jul 3, 2018)

I can't find a chart that goes up to 4.5 but at 4.0 the recommended SO2 is 125 ppm. Can't do the calculation without knowing the current SO2 but when I try to input the data it won't accept anything higher then 4.2 for the current Ph.


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## Obelix (Jul 3, 2018)

Thanks Mainshipfriend.
I'll just add a minimal amount.
Added some acidity to one keg 3 mths ago and that keg is 0 1 ph more. Better not to play with chemistry this year around 
Will add sone into the must next year.


And cmason
- regardless of the outcome, I'll add 5gm of sulphite per keg of 50L. 1/3 of the teaspoon and not more. Definitely not a bushel. If it goes off - so be it.
It will mostly be drunk through the year. 5 bottles I save for later...happy to risk it.

And about your comment that my wine is unlikely to be nice tasting...
Not sure what was on your mind when you wrote that. Condesendence?

My wine is not for sale. I get nothing from promoting bad wine.

I proved something here. A beginner can make a good wine by reading up and getting good advice from this forum.
And really, it only needs to taste nice to me anyway.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 3, 2018)

I am not sure if this is what Craig had in mind, but this is the thought that leapt into my mind: If your wine tastes good, it probably means that your measurement of _p_H of 4.6 is probably not right. Your tongue is a pretty good meter  . How are you measuring it (meter or strips)? Have you calibrated your meter?

Glad to hear your wine tastes good!


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## Obelix (Jul 3, 2018)

Thanks Sour Grapes 

It could be.
I bought a cheap digital PH meter on eBay and followed the calibration instructions.

Can't tell if the device is faulty, but it was high (4.0) as the secondary (MLF) commenced. Seemed to have increased in the last 3-4 months - used the same device. The only difference is the temperature. It's Winter now. 

The taste itself improved. It was slightly fizzy 4 months ago and that is now gone.I added some Tartaric in one keg 3 mths ago - not much difference in ph - just feels slightly more tingy - maybe I'm imagining.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 3, 2018)

Yes, sorry I wasn't trying to be condescending, more questioning the pH reading. A wine of 4.6 (I am guessing) would taste totally lacking in everything. I am guessing you aren't getting a good reading. Can you purchase distilled water? It should read somewhere around 7.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 4, 2018)

Calibrate the meter again and check everything. Water. Check some other commercial wines. See if they are in the mid 3 range too. If it tastes pretty good then your meter has got to be off. Seems hella high (but not high enough to not be plausible.) 
Those things are pretty touchy anyway. My 1st cheap meter did not last long. (I also wasn’t fully aware of all the proper use and care at the time either). Best to go thru the growing pains on the cheap ones tho. 
https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wphmeter.pdf


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## Obelix (Jul 4, 2018)

This may be my first batch ever - but is certainly not the first one I tasted  I would know if the wine is lacking - but I didn't react well. Apologies. 

Tried some demineralised water and it showed 6.6. Then tried again with the little calibration bag the manufacturer provided and it was 0.4 out of alignment. So, now recalibrated it shows 4.2.
Still higher than the ideal 3.6 - but less scary ... (?)

Thanks for the tip on distilled water.


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## Obelix (Jul 4, 2018)

Thanks Ajmassa.
It's now calibrated - and better but is still not necessarily correct.
I'll recheck ot in the distilled water again.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 4, 2018)

4.2 is high. But not unheard of. But requires a lot of so2. Id want to be pretty certain of the measurement before I adjusted with tartaric or added sulphites appropriate for 4.2
You know what you should probably do? You might as well just run the table and bang out everything for this first batch. Get yourself a TA test kit. If you own VC tanks you should probably test for TA Lol. I ran into this “can I trust my numbers” issue probably at the same part of the wines timeline too. Ended up sending samples to a lab to confirm. Glad I did too because I was way off. And wine was way healthier than my meter read.


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## Obelix (Jul 4, 2018)

Checked the Ph meter in destilled water. Shows 6.9. 
With the 0.1 tolerance the meter appears reasonable now. 

It's a bit overwhelming to get into the chemical re-balancing of wine at this stage. It would require much more education. 

Given this year's experience - I'm likely to add tartaric acid into the must next year. Will sort out the calculation then.

I doubt this wine will go off as it is likely to be consumed in one year. 
Sulfites were added into the must, and the containers sterilised with the same - but no further sulfites were added.
This first keg was bottled without sulfites. Hopefully the wine will last 4 months. 
The other two kegs will get 5g each - not enough, but still - will stay on that quantity this year. 

May get a lot of high quality vinegar 

Will include the TA kit for the next sesson - thanks.


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## Johnd (Jul 4, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Checked the Ph meter in destilled water. Shows 6.9.
> With the 0.1 tolerance the meter appears reasonable now.
> 
> It's a bit overwhelming to get into the chemical re-balancing of wine at this stage. It would require much more education.
> ...



Just checking the pH of your meter at 7.0 isn’t sufficient, invest in some testing solution that has a pH around 3.0, much closer to the proper wine pH range. I get that you’re planning to drink it fast, but your own words were that great advice from here helped you get to this point, don’t stop taking the good advice you’re still getting. Glad to hear that your wine is tasting good.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 4, 2018)

Let me second AJ's idea (I think) of "calibrating" it against commercial wines. Basically, any white wine will be below ~3.5, and any red will be below ~3.9. (Of course, JohnD is correct that a known, buffered calibration solution would be best, but I imagine you already HAVE some wine!


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## Obelix (Jul 5, 2018)

yes, yes... haven't explained well  
I tried it in the distilled water as cmason advised, and it showed 6.6 - it was obviously out. 
Then I used the calibration crystals provided with the meter (they provided two, I used one to calibrate it originally).
The calibration solution showed 0.4 out of alignment - had to re-calibrate the device. Once aligned, I also tried in distileld water - showed 6.9 - whcih was close enough given the device tolarance +/-1. 

Now, calibrating against commercial wines...I'll do it when I get a chance. 
Stopped buying them as I made this one. May visit some frineds and dip my meter in their glasses 
Also, if it is true that the WA wines are generally higher in Ph, may still show high - shoudl buy a French one. 

Thanks John, haven't stopped listening  
Everyone's advice is always appreciated. Would't make a good wine without it. 
Just that balancing the wine with Tartaric previously didn't do much, actually achieved the opposite - so I realised I was embarking on the process which I don't understand enough and may do more damage than good. 
Also, regardless of the need to put a lot of sulfites in due to the high ph, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid - sulfites distrub my sleep and cause me a headache - so trying to balance the necessary "evil" vs survival of the wine.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 5, 2018)

Down the shore and can’t sleep. Might as well talk wine. Hearing you describe your buffers and meter - I think I had the same one! Those powdered packets that need to be mixed first before calibrating? The worst! And about 95% of meters seem to use 4.0 and 7.0. Yet my cheapo came with these powdered buffers (in Chinese) of Like 9.75, 6.86 and 4.48 or something. I forget exactly. Huge hassle in comparison to typical. Which is liquid solutions of 4 and 7. They even make small one time use packets. 
Glad you agree TA testing should be in your wheelhouse next harvest. That ones easy tho. And you can test with or without meter in case you lose trust. 
So if your wine really is 4.2 ish? That’s uncomfortable for a lot of us homewinemakers. Lacks acid protection even if it tastes good. The pros get away with it because.... well because they’re pros with scientists on the damn payroll! I had high ph flirting with 3.9-4.0 last fall. It didn’t take long to start forming a layer of some type of “uneasiness” on the surface. Wasn’t until I adjusted ph down did it stop. If your not gonna adjust just keep your eye on it- even if you dose appropriate sulphites. I remember mine called for >70ppm. Was a lot. I dosed before I adjusted acid. Silver lining- I haven’t had to any more since!
BUT.....since you’ve got a VCT (awesome btw!) you got options to play with it. And maybe steal some wine for bench trials if you get bored. Adding varying amounts tartaric- noting ph change and taste change. Adding acid really isn’t anything to fret either. It’s kinda simple — especially when disregarding TA. Just remember a couple rules of thumb. 
-1g/L of tartaric will lower ph by .1
- always add half of desired dose and check since some wines move easier than others. 
And that’s it. Not waiting. No cold storage. Effects happen immediately for tasting and checking. When I added tartaric going from 4.0 to 3.8. (In multiple additions) I noticed HUGE improvement on taste. Then few weeks later I dropped it to 3.6. I kinda regret that 2nd addition making the tartaric taste dominate the profile. (Still learning and figuring shit out the hard way myself)
But about 10 months later? Starting to fall into place and getting tasty. Just in time to put that sucker in some oak for some graceful aging. I’m in no rush to bottle anything. I’d rather buy new vessels than bottle too early before she’s ready. 
This has been a great thread of your first batch. So lets see it through proper.


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## Obelix (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks Ajmassa - what stopped me the first time was that the ph actually went up by 0.1 after adding tartaric. Having said that, it was in the middle of MLF.

VCT was great for bulk fermentation, but eventually I raked the wine into three converted beer keg where the MLF completed. 
30 Litres were put in 2L flagons and consumed along the way - just checking the progress  

I'll definitelly get a TA kit for the next season.
I think the meter may not be a complete disaster - given it now (calibrated) shows 6.9 in distilled water.

>>>The pros get away with it because.... well because they’re pros with scientists on the damn payroll!
 - but also - they buy sulfites in bulk and don't mind putting in more in than required - as it is not who will be drinking it.

>>>It didn’t take long to start forming a layer of some type of “uneasiness” on the surface.
So this is something I didn't understand before - I assumed it would turn into vinegar.

Well, this keg is in the bottles - so nothing much to do but drink it.
I'll leave 5 bottles to open yearly and see how it develops. The outcome should tell me when the wine will go bad.

2nd keg - I'll add 5gm of sulfite and leave as is. See where it takes me. (1g per 10L seems to be a rule of thumb - "by the book")

3rd keg - I'll take your comment as an encouragement  - I'll gradually (over several days) add enough Tartaric to lower the ph to 3.6. Then add 5gm of sulfite.

>>>Just in time to put that sucker in some oak for some graceful aging.
Now, this is something I am still considering. Oak or tannins.
I don't understand the difference - which one produces that South Australian Shiraz typical taste. It seems I'll have to find out by experimenting on my own wine.

>>>This has been a great thread of your first batch. So lets see it through proper.
Thanks, I learned a lot from you guys and hopefully someone else may also learn from it - save themselves some trouble.


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## Wolfpup (Jul 5, 2018)

Thank you for posting your diary. You sound pretty knowledgeable about the wine you’re making and glad to hear that it tastes good. That I could understand. I got lost on your first page but stuck out the read.

The PH meter stuff is very interesting. Went thru that calibration too, don’t really understand PH though.

If you don’t mind, can I ask what VTC and MLF stand for? Tried to look it up and I’m getting stuff like Vermont Technical College, apparently they have a wine making course.


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## meadmaker1 (Jul 5, 2018)

MLF = malolactic fermentation. 

Again im not the expert here so googling that should get you an accurate answer


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## Obelix (Jul 5, 2018)

First I am not knowledgeable - only starting - but have learned heaps from various documentation I read and more so from this forum.

MLF - As Meadmaker said - malo-lactic fermentation. The primary fermentation converts sugar to alcohol, the MLF is s secondary fermentation - converting an unpleasant acid into a pleasant one. Mostly applied to red wines by adding the appropriate bacteria. 

VCT - variable capacity tank.
A stainless steel tub with a lid that sits on top of the wine and the height can be adjusted to the level of wine. In my case it is s 200L tank but I saw them between 100L and 2000L.

>> ph
Acidity is clear to people. More acid - more sour the taste. Think an orange and lemon
Ph meadures the opposite of acidity. 
More ph - less acidity. 
The problem we are discussing here is about the fact that the optimal level of acidity protects wine. My wine is less acid than it should be - so the expectation is that I should add more sulfites to protect it.
Further to this - there are two different kind of acidity - the ph meter only measuring one kind so doesn't provide the full picture. The TA is Total Acidity - all acidity levels added up. The guys are suggesting (and I agree with them) that I should invest into s TA kit. I need to learn a lot here. 

I suggest to read some high level instructions on how to make wine then all this will start to make sense. 

Also I worked out a plan then learned step by step - and obviously made a lot of mistakes. Will do better next year


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## Ajmassa (Jul 5, 2018)

Obelix said:


> 3rd keg - I'll take your comment as an encouragement  - I'll gradually (over several days) add enough Tartaric to lower the ph to 3.6. Then add 5gm of sulfite.
> 
> .



Actually I’m a believer in “listening to your wine”
as I like to say. Meaning - not to force it to do something that it naturally is not allowing. 
Im still learning he ropes myself, But My opinion is to not just add tartaric to 3.6. That’s a lot. Too much too add likely. I wouldn’t force 3.6 if your wine truly is currently 4.2. That’s 6g/L addition roughly. Probably would shoot TA through the roof and not taste good anynore.
But this is the fun part now! The part where science meets art. And knocking it down a few ticks while maintaining a pleasant tasting wine. Coming across situations like this is when you really start getting a feel for the process and learning a ton.
But experimenting on a whole batch is scary. Bench trials allows you to fine tune and do some trial and error— without the error happening to the whole batch.

And remember - higher Ph isn’t the end of the world. Just a characteristic that makes your wine unique and the way it is naturally wanting to be. I think lowering it just some without losing its integrity is likely the way to go. 3.6 is just a good reference point. But sometimes ya gotta call an audible. 
And also- when in doubt you can always refer to
the red wine Bible for some insight. https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wredw.pdf


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## Wolfpup (Jul 5, 2018)

Obelix said:


> First I am not knowledgeable - only starting - but have learned heaps from various documentation I read and more so from this forum.
> 
> MLF - As Meadmaker said - malo-lactic fermentation. The primary fermentation converts sugar to alcohol, the MLF is s secondary fermentation - converting an unpleasant acid into a pleasant one. Mostly applied to red wines by adding the appropriate bacteria.
> 
> ...



Thank you Obelix. You're explanations are very clear and much appreciated. This is a great help to me in following your diary. Yes, I have a lot to learn. 

Again, thank you. Best of luck with this batch.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 5, 2018)

Wolfpup said:


> The PH meter stuff is very interesting. Went thru that calibration too, don’t really understand PH though.
> 
> .



Simplest way for comprehension-

Ph measures the strength of the acids in your wine. The lower the number- the stronger the acids

TA- titritable acid (or sometimes referred to as total acid) is the amount of acid. Given in g/L
Lots of acid? Closer to 1.0g/L will typically also show as being stronger too. maybe 3.2 ph (But not always)
They like to move in adverse directions. Raise TA- will lower Ph. And vice versa. 

Check out that morewine manual link a couple posts back. Thing is extremely detailed. Not only giving step by steps/ but also telling you WHY. I think it’s well written.


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## Obelix (Jul 5, 2018)

Ajmassa - re adding tartaric
Will apply caution - thanks.
Honestly I like the taste as is - that doesn't mean it won't be better with a bit more acidity. 
The only way to learn is to be (slightly) adventurous


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## Ajmassa (Jul 6, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Ajmassa - re adding tartaric
> Will apply caution - thanks.
> Honestly I like the taste as is - that doesn't mean it won't be better with a bit more acidity.
> The only way to learn is to be (slightly) adventurous


 
I like adventures!
If that was my wine I think my plan of action would be to adjust to minimum <4.0 ph even tho you are happy with the taste as is. Especially with the planned 5ppm sulphites and low acid protection- something’s gonna give sooner or later 
And Also monitoring TA making sure it wasn’t all out of wack. (Still not too late!)
It’s tough with those kegs I bet too. But in a perfect world- I’d pull a gallon or so- to get a few bottles of varying levels of ph adjustments. Noting taste and ph of each. And checking them in a few weeks before deciding how to adjust the whole batch. 
But who knows tho- maybe you can just do nothing. Some so2 and let it age. When do you plan on bottling? (Thats a lot of wine to drink in 1 years time too btw)


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## Obelix (Jul 7, 2018)

Will work on that gradually. Unfortunatelly don't have small containers to work on the batches less than 50L. 

Previuously, I added some tartartic into one keg and the taste changed - got a bit like a white wine ting which I didn't like, but now after 3 months, that seemed to be nicely incorporated. So time will help to sort ti out. Will definitelly add some into the must next year. 

re: TA 
I need to find out where to find something I can use to measure TA. 
Haven't paid enough attention to the TA tools previously. Need to re-trace the thread. 

Figuring out that this "50L" keg may be less than 50L as I got around 60 bottles out of it. OK - filled to the brim, etc. but still it must be less. 
Not to worry - as you said 150L is a lot of wine to cunsume in a year. 
Was planning to bottle the next keg as the current set of bottles is consumed. The next one should be 3 months - will distribute some to friends an dmy (adult) kids. 5 bottles will stay behind - will see what I learn from them. There will be 5 bottles left aside from each keg - so we can compare the taste every 12 months.


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## Slappy (Jul 7, 2018)

Hey Obelix,
How did your novatwist capsules turn out? I'm about to bottle a keg of my free run Grenache over the next few weeks and only have the screw cap bottles for now. All the pressings I have on oak are going under cork when they're ready. I took a sample from my free run keg tonight and it's crystal clear so with no oak to integrate I'm happy to bottle.
As for splitting off smaller batches to adjust the acid/ph have you considered racking a keg into 2x 20l cubes and using the remaining 8-10 litres to put in 2l flagons, with different acid additions to integrate and test before deciding what to do with the rest. I have 2 hpde 20l cubes I got for $8.50 each. They are fine for storing wine I've had some of mine in there since march and no problem at all. Though that could be of use.


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## Obelix (Jul 7, 2018)

Hi Slappy,
The Novatwist turned out fine.
I could use them on all kind of bottles except on two weird ones.

Press down hard - twist to the right until locked.

How well they keep the air out we'll know soon enough, however everything seems fine.

At Au $0.36 per top - I'm planning to reuse them a few times 

Actually I better share this comment in thst thread too...
Re : more storage.
It's a goid idea thanks, however, I'm now running out of space too 

BTW...Curious about how your wine holds in plastic containers.
I had bad experience with it - changing the taste of wine after a while. Even in food grade plastic when purchased wine from private cellars. It would happen that I purchase wine in two reused water bottles and the taste would change in one in a fee hours. 
Have other 'interesting" experiences with plastic containers.
Having said this - some bottles held OK.

And I'm not weird for responding at 1am..the World Cup - Croatia vs Russia about to start


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## Slappy (Oct 2, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Hi Slappy,
> The Novatwist turned out fine.
> I could use them on all kind of bottles except on two weird ones.
> 
> ...


Hey Obelix,
How's your Shiraz going? Just thought I'd give an update re: plastic storage. I just updated my thread on my old vine Grenache and have done my final blending. The wine I held in 20 litre HDPE (no 2) cubes was absolutely fine after 6 months in there, was oaked for 4 months. I detected absolutely zero issues with the wine it is very good and now the remainder is in stainless kegs and glass for final ageing. I'm waiting around for next vintage now!


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## Obelix (Oct 2, 2018)

Cheers Slappy. 
Good to hear. Some plastics seem to perform better 

I'm planing to buy another variable capacity stainless steel tank for the next season. With this one, the top sits on the wine and slides down as you empty it. Paraffin oil around the edge keeps the air out. 
This way I won't need to bottle a portion of wine. 

Yes, the Shiraz is nice. 
I'm not drinking wine at the expected pace so it will last me longer  Still on the first keg.
Thinking if I should also try Merlot next year....


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## Slappy (Oct 3, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Cheers Slappy.
> Good to hear. Some plastics seem to perform better
> 
> I'm planing to buy another variable capacity stainless steel tank for the next season. With this one, the top sits on the wine and slides down as you empty it. Paraffin oil around the edge keeps the air out.
> ...


Glad your wines going well. I like the idea of the variable capacity tank but wouldn't use one myself as I don't drink wine quick enough and give a lot away.
I am going to need more storage next vintage so hopefully can score a few more kegs for next to nothing if I'm lucky.

Merlot would be interesting I found a bit for sale around the place last vintage. I want to do some shiraz next vintage (crush quarter tonne) and also do a couple of small batches of whatever else I can rustle up (50-100kg of fruit). Last vintage I saw chardonnay, pinot, merlot, cabernet and a few others for sale by the kg. But struggled to find shiraz going under 1 tonne quantities for good quality fruit. 
Guess I just got to wait and see what comes up. I can get the same grenache again if I want to as a back up plan but don't really want another 250 bottles of it. I want to make a few wines that I can cellar 5+ years if I can.


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## Obelix (Nov 16, 2018)

Obelix said:


> As per Ajmassa advice I added a bit of Tartaric Acid to the non-MLF-ed wine.
> Tried a sip before and it tastes more astringent than the MLFed wine. I now understand the difference better and will MLF the lot next year.
> The PH was checked at 3.9 and I added 20g of Tartaric acid
> (0.4g per litre) - being on the cautious side.



So I bottled the second keg - the one with the Tartaric as described above.
I find this wine slightly more "lively", although very similar to the first keg.
It's somewhat more drinkable but I think some of the complexity tasted in the first keg may have been lost.

The PH shows the same though, so the Tartaric did nothing for re: PH, but has impacted the taste. 

My wife mis-approprited whats' left of the first keg for herself  She considers it better. 

Had a bit of a drama with the third keg yesterday. The summer kicked in suddenly - from 24C to 37C, and I had a 100ml spill through the water lock on the top.
The room is obviously more stable than the outside, but still experienced a jump in temperature - enough to affect the volume of the liquid. Or the keg expands/shrinks at the different rate than the wine.

I was scared at first that the wine re-started fermenting - but I MLF-ed the wine and added sulfites so it should not happen.
Drained 100ml - just to create some space in the keg - tastes exactly like the first keg. Somewhat better - as it had another 4 months to settle. 
Another lesson - not to overfill the kegs.

Should I bottle it or leave it in the keg another 4-5 months?


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## Obelix (Nov 16, 2018)

Slappy, you wouldn't be in W. Australia? IF so - I can put you in touch with this small Shiraz grower.


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## Slappy (Nov 19, 2018)

Obelix said:


> Slappy, you wouldn't be in W. Australia? IF so - I can put you in touch with this small Shiraz grower.


Hey Obelix I'm in South Australia. Thanks for the offer though sounds like you're pretty happy with how your stuff turned out.
I'm going to crush 3/4 - 1 tonne next vintage. Most likely half tonne of the old vine grenache and quarter tonne of shiraz. I'm building a friendship with a small winemaker I know and am hoping to get some shiraz off his block. I'm going to be bottling the remainder of my wine over the next few weeks now I feel it's ready.


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## REDRUM (Nov 26, 2018)

Good to hear it's all going well Obelix! I have moved most of my shiraz from the larger demijohn to a bunch of smaller 5L bottles, and bottled the remainder. It seems a nice medium weight and fairly well integrated (but some more time will help round off the edges a bit).
I'm thinking about buying a VCT for my father-in-law's shed, how have you found the floating lid paraffin seal option? Tossing up between that and another type of variable capacity tank that has an inflatable seal for the lid...


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## Obelix (Nov 27, 2018)

Glad to hear your wine is developing nicely Slappy. 
You haven't made much this year, and also had some damage. Do you have enough? Are you going to make more this year around? 
Slappy seems to be making some serious quantities. 

The keg that had some tartaric added is a hit with my family and friends and is disappearing quickly. 
Wonder how much I'll have left by the next season's wine. 

Haven't purchased the VCT with the floating lid yet. I'll purchase all the components in January (yeast, yeast food, MLF etc, etc.) and order that VCT then from the same WA based supplier to reduce the delivery charges. 
I already know how the floating lid it works, as my brother in law uses them in Croatia. He makes about 600L of a great Merlot and uses 3-4 tanks and his wine is great, so...
Otherwise, they are simpler than the inflatable seal one. And cheaper. 
However, the one with the inflatable seal comes with the fermentation lock - so good for the fermentation phase. Otherwise, I found it slightly cumbersome to align the top just above the wine. 
These are minor worries though. 
I also use a 195L plastic container as a temporary storage for bulk raking. This is a discarded olives import container I fitted with a plastic tap.


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## REDRUM (Nov 27, 2018)

Yeah I don't have huge amounts. About 15L each of Shiraz, Grenache & red blend of Grenache / Shiraz / Primitivo (but my father-in-law also has about 150L that we made together, so I'm in no danger of running out of homemade wine).
As I think I mentioned the Grenache was picked way too early and it's very light.
I was talking to a guy at Winequip and he recommended the inflatable seal over paraffin oil seal for a range of reasons - but yeah they're more expensive.

Also, I'm still keen for a bottle swap if you're interested!


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## Obelix (Nov 27, 2018)

Re: Bottle swap
Sure. Let's take this offline via messaging


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## Obelix (Jan 9, 2019)

Excited about the next season as I found a Zinfandel grapes grower nearby.
Already reserved 14 boxes (around 280 kilos). My favourite wine - happy , happy 

What's different this year is that the grapes will be ready 3 weeks before, and I'm planning to inoculate the MLF (VP41) with the yeast.
So, when I say "with the yeast" - I'm not sure if the yeast and MLF bacteria should go in together, or should I introduce the VP41 a day or two later?
Any advice would be great.


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## Johnd (Jan 9, 2019)

Obelix said:


> Excited about the next season as I found a Zinfandel grapes grower nearby.
> Already reserved 14 boxes (around 280 kilos). My favourite wine - happy , happy
> 
> What's different this year is that the grapes will be ready 3 weeks before, and I'm planning to inoculate the MLF (VP41) with the yeast.
> ...



I’ve been coinoculation for som time, and normally introduce the MLB when the first good, solid cap forms. At that point, your fermentation is underway, and that’s my signal. That said, I doubt it would make any difference a little earlier or later.


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## Obelix (Jan 9, 2019)

Thanks John. 
Sounds good.


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

So the cycle is finally completed as the last (the 3rd) keg has been bottled. 
This keg had no tartaric added, and seemed to have bulk aged better. The liquid is slightly clearer, and tastes different from the other two kegs again. 
Still, aging, tartaric...no difference in the Ph, so wont' play with the Tartaric again. 
Can't make up my mind which keg I like the best, but I stored 10 bottles from each keg to be consumed through the next 5-6 years so I learn how it changes due to the aging. 

Also the new season grapes crushed - but it is Zinfandel/Primitivo this time around and this thread is about Shiraz so I'll conclude it here. 

Really appreciate everyone's input. A lot of lessons learned  Thanks


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## mainshipfred (Feb 3, 2019)

Obelix said:


> So the cycle is finally completed as the last (the 3rd) keg has been bottled.
> This keg had no tartaric added, and seemed to have bulk aged better. The liquid is slightly clearer, and tastes different from the other two kegs again.
> Still, aging, tartaric...no difference in the Ph, so wont' play with the Tartaric again.
> Can't make up my mind which keg I like the best, but I stored 10 bottles from each keg to be consumed through the next 5-6 years so I learn how it changes due to the aging.
> ...



Keep us posted on the new journey. Are you saying your harvest has already taken place? Our grapes from SA and Chili don't arrive until late April or early May and you are close to the same latitude. I realize there is shipping involved but not that long.


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

Last year's Shiraz was ready around 20. Feb.
Primitivo is by default an early harvest. It seems also a bit shrivelled, so even possibly picked a bit late. I don't mind, the BRIX is correct at 23, the ph too at 3.4 and is quite juicy.

Not sure what's happening in South Australia, but in the West, the climate is dry and hot so it matures early.
I've seen advertisments for Shiraz being ready at 23 BRIX.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 3, 2019)

Obelix said:


> Last year's Shiraz was ready around 20. Feb.
> Primitivo is by default an early harvest. It seems also a bit shrivelled, so even possibly picked a bit late. I don't mind, the BRIX is correct at 23, the ph too at 3.4 and is quite juicy.
> 
> Not sure what's happening in South Australia, but in the West, the climate is dry and hot so it matures early.
> I've seen advertisments for Shiraz being ready at 23 BRIX.



Actually I was referring to South Africa. We have no source for grapes from South Australia that I'm aware of, only juice.


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## Johnd (Feb 3, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Actually I was referring to South Africa. We have no source for grapes from South Australia that I'm aware of, only juice.



We should find a source, I’ve tasted the Obelix Shiraz, and it’s quite impressive, well made, and good fruit seems very obtainable in Australia.


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

Got that. I actually thought you were talking about South America.
South Australia is the largest wine region in Australia, and I'm not sure if the grapes are ready at the same time. Redrum may advise if he gets s chance to read this.

Still, definitely early. In Dalmatia (South Croatia) it would be ready a full month later.


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

Do you actually get the grapes from South Africa and South America? 
And crush it in your Spring?


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## mainshipfred (Feb 3, 2019)

Obelix said:


> Do you actually get the grapes from South Africa and South America?
> And crush it in your Spring?



Yes we do but it's not until April or May.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 3, 2019)

Johnd said:


> We should find a source, I’ve tasted the Obelix Shiraz, and it’s quite impressive, well made, and good fruit seems very obtainable in Australia.



I know @heatherd has something from Australia but I'm not sure it's juice or crushed grapes.


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

It's great to have that option.
It's possible it takes 4 weeks just to get there.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 3, 2019)

Congrats on the Shiraz being a success. I really did enjoy reading along with this thread. Hearing the resident wine critic publicly giving his stamp of approval has gotta feel good too. 
Good luck with your Primitivo/Zin. 

(I also took Johnd’s suggestion on inoculating mlb right after yeast lag phase and have had 100% MLf success rate in all attempts.)


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## heatherd (Feb 3, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I know @heatherd has something from Australia but I'm not sure it's juice or crushed grapes.


Fred, it's juice. Got it from Presque Isle wine, they ship fresh juice from Australia. https://www.piwine.com/winemaking.html


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## Johnd (Feb 3, 2019)

heatherd said:


> Fred, it's juice. Got it from Presque Isle wine, they ship fresh juice from Australia. https://www.piwine.com/winemaking.html



I think I’d only try it if I could get fresh fruit or frozen must, gotta get the skins and all.........


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

Thanks Aj. 
Yes, really appreciate John's feedback. It's easy to be subjective so his feedback is very helpful. 
The wine turned out pretty good.
Beginners luck? 

I was quite lucky with the grapes and the weather. Followed the wine making bible and received a lot of good advice here.
Learned heaps along the way 

The Malo should arrive by Wednesday when I'lI'll innoculate straight away.


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## Johnd (Feb 3, 2019)

Obelix said:


> The wine turned out pretty good.
> Beginners luck?



Luck? Maybe, but I’m betting not. You started with good fruit, and didn’t make any mistakes. Did you hit every decision / option out of the park? Probably not, but who does.... Grapes want to be wine, we just have to guide the process and not screw up what nature has already designed.


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

Thanks for your support John 
It has been quite intense trying to avoid mistakes. 
Should be easier this year, although it's a different grape, also making the Rose


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## heatherd (Feb 3, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I think I’d only try it if I could get fresh fruit or frozen must, gotta get the skins and all.........


I bought two buckets of chenin blanc juice and one Cab juice bucket that I paired with frozen must for a two-continent cab. They're still clearing....


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## Obelix (Feb 3, 2019)

So a frozen must. I was wondering how it arrives from afar. Makes sense.


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## Obelix (Feb 5, 2019)

A bit of panic...today was 35C, measured 30C under the carport where the vat is.
Brix dropped from 18 to 11 in a day.

The panic is due to the next few days being 36-40 C.
Friday will be 34 before it goes back to 40s so I' ll target Friday to press.
Given how quickly the BRIX is dropping have no doubt it will be zero by then but how to survive the heat of the next few days. 
Will freeze a few containers with water to help cool the mass.

My luck seem to be running out. ..


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## Johnd (Feb 5, 2019)

Obelix said:


> A bit of panic...today was 35C, measured 30C under the carport where the vat is.
> Brix dropped from 18 to 11 in a day.
> 
> The panic is due to the next few days being 36-40 C.
> ...



Yup, that's too hot. I live in an area similar in temps to yours, very hot, and as a result, ferment in large containers in my home with air conditioning. See if you can find some dry ice to cram in there to cool it down, too much higher and you could start to develop H2S problems, yeast death, mlb death, none of which you want. Wrap the vat in a wet towel and blow fans across it, punch down frequently to release heat through the cap, circulate cool water through a food grade tubing coil submersed in the must, all good options to help.


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## Obelix (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm envious John - It would be nice to have a shaded/air-conditioned garage... sigh...
When you say "food grade tubbing coil" - what is this? Copper tube? Plastic wouldn't dissipate heat well. 

36C just now, 30C under cover, the must is 30C. 38C expected tomorrow. 

Must temperature is 30C - bearable, but risky. I dropped in three frozen bottles of 1.5L each this morning. They got thawed in a few hours. 
High temperatures are pushing the Brix down quickly. Brix was 11 last night and 4 this morning. As a comparison, the Rose , which is fermenting in the house went from 11 to 9 Brix overnignt. 
The VP41 went in yesterday morning, and I have no idea if it will survive. Have another pinch in the fridge, and will add it in after pressing. The ph till shows 3.4 - but there would be no reason to go up any time soon. 

The maceration is finally happening properly. The skins are collapsing and the cap is much easier to turn. It would be great to leave it on the skins for another 3-4 days, but better to salvage what I can. 
So - maintain the temperature today, and press it tomorrow early morning. 
I'll press it hard to extract tannin, but I don't think it will get the "depth" of a good quality Zin without sitting on the skins 3-4 days longer...but lessons learned... 

The must is very red - as opposed to purple colour of Shiraz I had last year. 
The origin of Primitivo and Zinfandel is from my home region in Croatia where this vine is called "Crljenac" . 
Crljenac is not a dictionary term, but a local slang for something that is of a clay-reddish colour. 
I now understand why, the must is very pink-red in colour. 
Wonder what will be the final colour. All the "Crljenac" vines in my home region are intensely dark, slightly brownish. But not red.


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## Slappy (Feb 6, 2019)

Sorry to be off topic Obelix but how did you go about shipping a bottle to Johnd in the states? I was going to ship some wine to a friend there and another forum member but could not find a way to send it. Can you please let me know.


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## Obelix (Feb 6, 2019)

Slappy said:


> Sorry to be off topic Obelix but how did you go about shipping a bottle to Johnd in the states? I was going to ship some wine to a friend there and another forum member but could not find a way to send it. Can you please let me know.



Will PM you.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 6, 2019)

Obelix said:


> When you say "food grade tubbing coil" - what is this? Copper tube? Plastic wouldn't dissipate heat well.



No, no, do not use copper. The must is very acidic, and could dissolve unhealthy amounts of copper into your wine. I am pretty sure that when John said "food grade," he was intentionally signalling NOT to use copper.

I agree, plastic won't be a super-efficient conductor of heat, but it will get the job done.


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## Johnd (Feb 6, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> No, no, do not use copper. The must is very acidic, and could dissolve unhealthy amounts of copper into your wine. I am pretty sure that when John said "food grade," he was intentionally signalling NOT to use copper.
> 
> I agree, plastic won't be a super-efficient conductor of heat, but it will get the job done.



Yes, sour_grapes hit it perfectly, definitely do not use copper. Stainless tubing, or food grade plastic.

I don’t ferment in an air conditioned garage, I do it in my house in 50 gallon food grade trash cans on wheels. Crush / destem outside into the cans, roll them in for fermenting, back out a week later (or so) for pressing. Wine comes back into the house in carboys to finish MLF at 75F, then into the wine room at 55 for a couple months before barreling.


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## Obelix (Feb 6, 2019)

OK - will stay away from copper. Thans.
I'll ask my wife's uncle if he could make me a stainless steel coil for the next year. It's over for this year.
Today was hot, but I managed to keep it at 30C and under.The must finished the day at 1 Brix. Everything seems well and active. 
I can breathe again 

Tried the wine - it's tasty- a bit more acidic than desired but that should be addressed by the MLF.
Ideally, I would keep the must going for another day, but pushing towards 40 tomorrow so an early start for me and my wife to press the wine. 

Now, I carry 1 bucket at the time between the carport and the back room - about 12-15 times, and dump it directly into the VCT.

Your method John seems safer but quite laborious.
My backroom is around 3.5m x 2.8m. It is also a storage for my fishing gear, windsurfing gear, camping gear.My wife even cramped a single bed vertically against the wall. 
I added two VCTs, one 200L food grade plastic container, one 30L plastic brewing container, 70 bottles, 5 flagons, 2 buckets...a few stools, 3 beer kegs...
No chance in hell to be able to do it like you do. 
Not much room left to move - and I'll have to rake the VCT in three days - in that space. After everything is done, my 300L VAT goes in too


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## REDRUM (Feb 6, 2019)

Obelix said:


> Got that. I actually thought you were talking about South America.
> South Australia is the largest wine region in Australia, and I'm not sure if the grapes are ready at the same time. Redrum may advise if he gets s chance to read this.
> 
> Still, definitely early. In Dalmatia (South Croatia) it would be ready a full month later.



In McLaren Vale (the region I'm most familiar with in SA) their harvest officially kicks off tomorrow, but some grapes (esp some white varieties) would have been picked already. 
Don't know about Primitivo - I am trying to get my hands on some so your post has prompted me to try to get onto that ASAP!
Shiraz is a little while away - possibly 3-4 weeks.

Also, I can vouch for the quality of your shiraz... great wine. 

Here in Aus biosecurity regulations are a big thing (for example, SA and WA are along with Chile some of the biggest grape growing regions to have avoided phylloxera) so we don't usually move grapes between jurisdictions .... so it always surprises me on this forum to read about people just casually ordering grapes from all over the world!


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## Obelix (Feb 7, 2019)

Cheers Redroom. Appreciate your nice words. I liked your wine too. Very nicely done. We all liked it here. 
Well, not sure about your area, this Primitivo I got on Saturday, some people got theirs a week before me. 
It's amazing to get it this early.


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## Obelix (Feb 7, 2019)

Well, just in time. Started 6:30 this morning. The press washed and stored and all equipment washed by 10am . The wine sitting happily in the VCTs. 200-210 L in todal + 25L Rose. 

The Brix was zero, the colour came through, and so did the taste. I could recognise the fruity ting of a typical Zin. The colour is dark with red hue. 
Just in time - it is a scorcher out there 40C.
I feel lucky again 


Last year I compared the taste of the free flow vs pressed wine and decided it was all great and mixed it up. 

This year, I felt the pressed wine is inferior. Felt a bit thin. Go figure. 

Anyway, decided to separate it into another container. I'll try it again after the gross lees raking and decide to mix it in or keep separate.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 7, 2019)

REDRUM said:


> In McLaren Vale (the region I'm most familiar with in SA) their harvest officially kicks off tomorrow, but some grapes (esp some white varieties) would have been picked already.
> Don't know about Primitivo - I am trying to get my hands on some so your post has prompted me to try to get onto that ASAP!
> Shiraz is a little while away - possibly 3-4 weeks.
> 
> ...



I wish it was from all over the world. I would like to get Malbec from Argentina but like Europe and Australia these sources aren't available for grapes. Although we are lucky to have so many growing regions in the states.


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## Obelix (Feb 11, 2019)

The wine raked from Gross Lees after three days (remembered John's advice from the last year - thks John ), and, after trying it again, decided to mix in the pressed wine and the free flow. I only had about 25-30L of the pressed wine anyway. So it's a total of about 200L in the big VCT. Feels slightly less acidic. The MLF performing?
Added in the last pinch ov VP41 I retained in the fridge - just in case of any disaster 

The 40s C were relentless until today's 29C. Lucky to have survived this in good shape. All now in the air-conditioned environment.

The Rose is still bubbling away in the beer fermenter. Once it's done, I'lI'll add a bit of egg white to clarify it, and some Tartaric if required.
Then transfer it to the 100L parrafin tank for some months of aging.

Got a bottle of Italian Primitivo yesterday. I was keen to compare, but couldn't taste the wine from the oak. Oak can be pleasant but overwhelms the wine character.


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