# Syrah/Primitivo Big Day



## CDrew

I don't know if I'll have time to document this thread in it's entirety, but I'll take a stab at it.

It's harvest season here in Northern California and today was the day when time, grapes and friends all fell into place for an interesting harvest. We were picking Syrah this morning at 7am in the Sierra foothills near Folsom Lake. Nice grapes, hill side vineyard but under some time pressure. So a friend and I picked 300 pounds more or less of the Syrah in an hour and a half, loaded the grapes in trashcans in the minivan and rolled up to another friend's vineyard between Auburn and Grass Valley. There we picked another 300 pounds of Primitivo, and crushed the Syrah and then the Primitivo in turn. Sulfited 50ppm with the crush, added dry ice to keep things cold, ate a delicious lunch, then loaded the minivan and rolled back to Sacramento. Lets just say that loading full fermenters with 4 people is a lot easier than unloading the same fermenters with 2 people. But it's done. Like most of you, I'm garage bound and all the grapes are now in--you guessed it---my garage. And it's too hot here this week. Nothing I can do about it. Pitching D21 in the morning.

The interesting thing is, I ended up with close to 400 pounds of Primitivo must in 2 Brute trash cans which is just a whole lot of must to deal with. I think I got the lucky end of the crush dumped into one of my cans when everyone had all they wanted and there were still picked grapes left. Just finished adding pectic enzymes (Lallemand EX) and I will pitch the yeast tomorrow morning.

Syrah-Ended up with probably 275 pounds of must. A bit less than I had hoped but what we had time to do. Brix 27, These grapes were delicious in the vineyard. The juice is delicious, I'm hoping the wine will be too. Planning a co-innoculated MLF (CH16) that I'll add when the cap forms.

Primitivo-Ended up with close to 400 pounds of must, Brix 24/25. pH 3.4 Really nice condition grapes from vines planted in 2008. I have high hopes for this wine. This will be the second primitivo I've made and hoping to increase the body and color with the enzyme treatment and some Opti-red which I'm trying for the first time. Also planning a co-innoculated MLF with CH16.

So comments and suggestions welcomed. This will be the bulk of my wine year but still have 250 pounds of Cabernet coming my way in October once it's ripe. Brix on those grapes are only 21 BRIX now, so likely 3-4 weeks to go. I could use some oaking suggestions, and some tannin addition suggestions. I have a 4 pack of wine stix that will go with the Syrah. Not really sure what to do about the Primitivo, but will likely do cubes. A barrel is out of the question for storage reasons.


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## CDrew

Pitched this am.

D21 yeast in all the wine, go-ferm re hydration for 20 minutes then added juice to each and it took off instantly. 

Pitched at 60F

Now the wait for cap formation!

And overloaded garage.


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## Boatboy24

Old Land Cruiser?


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## CDrew

Boatboy24 said:


> Old Land Cruiser?



Yep. That's a '71 FJ40 I've owned about 20 years. Only take it out to play in the summer! I have a couple of others too.


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## CK55

I wouldnt have picked trash cans as they can leach into the must.


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## cmason1957

CK55 said:


> I wouldnt have picked trash cans as they can leach into the must.


I am interested in any facts you have to back this up. Many of us use these for primary fermentation. They are marked as being food safe and are the same plastic as found in more traditional wine fermentation buckets.


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## CDrew

CK55 said:


> I wouldnt have picked trash cans as they can leach into the must.



Quote your sources, my friend, otherwise, it's speculation on your part.

It also begs the question; what would you have used to contain close to 80 gallons of must wine? And then be able to move it around in a minivan?

The Brute white and gray are NSF certified for food and liquids.

Here is my source:

https://www.rubbermaidcommercial.com/brute-containers/brute-square-containers/?sku=FG352600GRAY


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## CDrew

And the wine itself-

Had caps on both after 12 hours and so did the first feed of Fermaid O. The Fermaid O is a deviation from the Fermaid K I usually use. I read that the ferment doesn't get quite as hot. Sounds plausible but I don't really know. This will be an 80 gallon experiment! 

Had full caps this morning. Punched down thoroughly and started my MLF. 

Used CH16 for MLF since it was so trouble free for me last year, and I like the fact you don't need to rehydrate-just a direct pitch into the wine.

I can already tell the color is deeper and richer than last year, so maybe the Lallemand EX enzyme treatment really works!

It's great to be off and running. Going to have to come home at lunch today to punch it down. I like to do 4 times per day after a strong start. If really motivated around the peak, I'll get up in the middle of the night and punch it down a 5th time.


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## CDrew

Here are the primitivo grapes just after we finished picking them and before we crushed:





And Here is the Cap now on 1/2 of my Primitivo fermenting along nicely:
The garage smells fantastic!


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## CK55

cmason1957 said:


> I am interested in any facts you have to back this up. Many of us use these for primary fermentation. They are marked as being food safe and are the same plastic as found in more traditional wine fermentation buckets.


They have a coating inside to protect against acidic and otherwise dangerous stuff that ends up in trash, I was told this at least by my uncle. And I have read at least 5x about it on a couple different websites shame I didn't bookmark. And for the most part it's a different non food grade plastic.


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## Johnd

CK55 said:


> They have a coating inside to protect against acidic and otherwise dangerous stuff that ends up in trash, I was told this at least by my uncle. And I have read at least 5x about it on a couple different websites shame I didn't bookmark. And for the most part it's a different non food grade plastic.



So your uncle told you and you've read about it 5 times on two websites but you can't cite them because you didn't bookmark them......... You've got a forum full of winemakers who are making wine in these containers, who've done the research into the plastics that go into them, communicated with the manufacturers to make sure they are safe for what we use them for, and that's your response? Really?


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## CK55

Johnd said:


> So your uncle told you and you've read about it 5 times on two websites but you can't cite them because you didn't bookmark them......... You've got a forum full of winemakers who are making wine in these containers, who've done the research into the plastics that go into them, communicated with the manufacturers to make sure they are safe for what we use them for, and that's your response? Really?


Im just saying,I dont have experience with them, but stands to reason that it woudlnt be wise to use them for it but hey whatever floats your boat. Im entitled to saying that i think its a bad idea.


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## CDrew

CK55 said:


> They have a coating inside to protect against acidic and otherwise dangerous stuff that ends up in trash, I was told this at least by my uncle. And I have read at least 5x about it on a couple different websites shame I didn't bookmark. And for the most part it's a different non food grade plastic.




@CK55 how about you stick to subjects you know about and not clog up my thread with speculation, innuendo, and your trashcanexpert uncle. If you have constructive comments to add, please do so. If you did something differently and you compared and have personal knowledge, then please post up your experience. But seeing as how your profile says you are 22, and near as I can tell you have 1 3 gallon carboy of wine under your belt, you might state things with less certainty and more of an open mind. We are all here to learn something. And by the way-all Rubbermaid Commercial Products "Brute" cans have a serial number that starts with "FG" which stands for food grade. The Gray and White ones meet NSF standards and stamp it on the can. Are they perfect? Probably not (they are close for the $44 they cost!) but you could do far worse. And if you have a better and cheaper alternative, please post that up so we can all go get a couple! But otherwise, stick to things you know about. If it's controversial, quote your credible sources, not uncle Billy-Bob. If you want to post up overly certain and opinionated comments, please start your own thread and post them there. But I would welcome helpful and constructive comments as I go through this fermentation and the wine making process.


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## CK55

CDrew said:


> @CK55 how about you stick to subjects you know about and not clog up my thread with speculation, innuendo, and your trashcanexpert uncle. If you have constructive comments to add, please do so. If you did something differently and you compared and have personal knowledge, then please post up your experience. But seeing as how your profile says you are 22, and near as I can tell you have 1 3 gallon carboy of wine under your belt, you might state things with less certainty and more of an open mind. We are all here to learn something. And by the way-all Rubbermaid Commercial Products "Brute" cans have a serial number that starts with "FG" which stands for food grade. The Gray and White ones meet NSF standards and stamp it on the can. Are they perfect? Probably not (they are close for the $44 they cost!) but you could do far worse. And if you have a better and cheaper alternative, please post that up so we can all go get a couple! But otherwise, stick to things you know about. If it's controversial, quote your credible sources, not uncle Billy-Bob. If you want to post up overly certain and opinionated comments, please start your own thread and post them there. But I would welcome helpful and constructive comments as I go through this fermentation and the wine making process.


 I have never used a can so again i have no experience, just speaking from what i thought, as for batches of wine ive got over a dozen. So im not a novice, just got a single 3 gallon this year.
Again didnt know that they were food grade. Because google said they were not. Have a nice day, and please remember always be respectful.

I am eager to hear about how it turns out though, those grapes looked really nice. I do like Syrah, but have not been a huge fan of Primitivo/ZInfandel.


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## Johnd

@CDrew , I apologize for my part in the clogging. 

I’m quite jealous of that big beautiful vat of grapes you picked, carry on!!!


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## CDrew

Johnd said:


> @CDrew , I apologize for my part in the clogging.
> 
> I’m quite jealous of that big beautiful vat of grapes you picked, carry on!!!



I'd welcome some clogging and advice. But yeah, the grapes were really nice. I feel fortunate, and hope to do them justice.


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## CK55

CDrew said:


> I'd welcome some clogging and advice. But yeah, the grapes were really nice. I feel fortunate, and hope to do them justice.


I went back and re read what you were doing and you pretty much have a good solid start going for these batches, and i think that they will turn out well. I did want to ask if that cab you have coming in october is cab sav or cab franc. Since you didnt specify.


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## Ajmassa

This was a ticking time bomb.


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## Ajmassa

@CK55 just keep it real man. That’s all you gotta do.


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## Johnd

CDrew said:


> I'd welcome some clogging and advice. But yeah, the grapes were really nice. I feel fortunate, and hope to do them justice.



Plenty of experience in this group, and someone around to help.


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## CDrew

Some progress...

The Brix on the Syrah is now 8
The Brix on the Primitivo is 10

Both a fermenting quite well. It quickly reforms the cap after punching down. Steady ferment and without heat peaks like last year. I don't know if the difference is the yeast (D21 this year vs D254 last year) or the feeding program which was all Fermaid O this year vs Fermaid K last year.

Color and smell are great so far. I think by this weekend it will be ready to press but I'm working, so either a late night or wait until Monday.

I actually tasted the Syrah. It's still cloyingly sweet but the overall flavor is very good. I guess in 2 years, I'll know how I did!


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## Carotz

CDrew said:


> I don't know if I'll have time to document this thread in it's entirety, but I'll take a stab at it.
> 
> It's harvest season here in Northern California and today was the day when time, grapes and friends all fell into place for an interesting harvest. We were picking Syrah this morning at 7am in the Sierra foothills near Folsom Lake. Nice grapes, hill side vineyard but under some time pressure. So a friend and I picked 300 pounds more or less of the Syrah in an hour and a half, loaded the grapes in trashcans in the minivan and rolled up to another friend's vineyard between Auburn and Grass Valley. There we picked another 300 pounds of Primitivo, and crushed the Syrah and then the Primitivo in turn. Sulfited 50ppm with the crush, added dry ice to keep things cold, ate a delicious lunch, then loaded the minivan and rolled back to Sacramento. Lets just say that loading full fermenters with 4 people is a lot easier than unloading the same fermenters with 2 people. But it's done. Like most of you, I'm garage bound and all the grapes are now in--you guessed it---my garage. And it's too hot here this week. Nothing I can do about it. Pitching D21 in the morning.
> 
> The interesting thing is, I ended up with close to 400 pounds of Primitivo must in 2 Brute trash cans which is just a whole lot of must to deal with. I think I got the lucky end of the crush dumped into one of my cans when everyone had all they wanted and there were still picked grapes left. Just finished adding pectic enzymes (Lallemand EX) and I will pitch the yeast tomorrow morning.
> 
> Syrah-Ended up with probably 275 pounds of must. A bit less than I had hoped but what we had time to do. Brix 27, These grapes were delicious in the vineyard. The juice is delicious, I'm hoping the wine will be too. Planning a co-innoculated MLF (CH16) that I'll add when the cap forms.
> 
> Primitivo-Ended up with close to 400 pounds of must, Brix 24/25. pH 3.4 Really nice condition grapes from vines planted in 2008. I have high hopes for this wine. This will be the second primitivo I've made and hoping to increase the body and color with the enzyme treatment and some Opti-red which I'm trying for the first time. Also planning a co-innoculated MLF with CH16.
> 
> So comments and suggestions welcomed. This will be the bulk of my wine year but still have 250 pounds of Cabernet coming my way in October once it's ripe. Brix on those grapes are only 21 BRIX now, so likely 3-4 weeks to go. I could use some oaking suggestions, and some tannin addition suggestions. I have a 4 pack of wine stix that will go with the Syrah. Not really sure what to do about the Primitivo, but will likely do cubes. A barrel is out of the question for storage reasons.


I also make Primitivo but I add Petit Syrah instead (about 20% or a bit more) this year I believe from what I’m hearing brix levels should be in the normal range about 24, always comes out good and I barrel it for a year.


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## CDrew

Carotz said:


> I also make Primitivo but I add Petit Syrah instead (about 20% or a bit more) this year I believe from what I’m hearing brix levels should be in the normal range about 24, always comes out good and I barrel it for a year.



Good call-I was hoping that a source of Petit Syrah would appear this year but so far, not. I wanted to make a typical foothill blend with 10-20% PS. There are still a few weeks left in this harvest season, and if some PS comes my way, it will happen! I have ended up with enough Primitivo wine that there's plenty to do blending experiments. Barrels for me would be difficult logistically in my current house/garage. Thanks for the reply.


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## CDrew

Brix is/are dropping fast.

At 2 Brix for the Syrah, and I'm going to have to press that tomorrow (Friday) night when I get home.

Primitivo is at 5 brix, so hopefully it can wait until Sunday afternoon. Saturday would be the ideal day, but working 16 hours and so not happening.

1st world problem: Not sure I have enough carboys. It's going to be close. Will update!


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## Ajmassa

Sounds like it was a good call goin from d-254 and Ferm K to d-21 w/ Ferm O. 
Haven’t used 21, but 254 and 80 together. The 254 was a little faster and hotter. And I believe FermO is just K without the DAP right? So more of a subtle nutrient- since the DAP can be like a shot in the arm. 
Good luck with timing the press. I feel your pain when the wine tells u it’s ready but life doesn’t agree.


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## CDrew

Gentlemen, we have wine.

Today was pretty cool. I got home from work and my Syrah was at 0 Brix. I know everyone likes SG but I can see the Brix scale on the hydrometer better and so that's what I'm reporting. I pressed all the Syrah with my new bladder press. Holy s*** it's my new favorite toy. Super fast, super efficient. Pressed to 3 bar. The wine is fantastic already. This is a HUGE upgrade from the ratchet screw press I've used previously. It's much faster, much easier, much easier to sterilize and even easier to clean up. Get one.

Ended up with 24 1/2 gallons of raw wine. It will probably be 22 gallons in a couple of days when racked off the gross lees. Super happy with the results so far.


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## CDrew

So here's what's left. Pretty cool. Very dry grape skins and a nice left over glass of wine. Primitivo will get pressed on Sunday, but off to a good start for vintage 2018.


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## CDrew

After work today, a big wine making effort.

First I racked the Syrah into clean carboys. Have 23 gallons and a bit to drink tonight. Tastes and smells awesome. Still fermenting a bit. It's deep and dark. The vacuum racking with the allinone works great. It's a little slow with this much wine but it worked great and I racked from wine on the floor to carboys on a table.

After that was done switched gears to the Primitivo. It's still going a bit. Brix is near zero but in the carboys it's still fermenting. Ended up with 36 gallons. likely will be 33 once racked off the gross lees in a couple of days but it's a lot of wine. I got the leftovers at crush and it was a lot more than I bargained for.

I am close to out of carboys. I know that having too much wine is a first world problem, but there it is. Racking the Primitivo will mean filling, then cleaning, then filling then cleaning etc. I can't wait. I think I'm going to order some Intellitanks.

But I have to say the bladder press makes short work of the pressing. I like the romance of the screw press, but noone would ever go back to a screw press from a bladder press. Once it's full and the free run is done, it's maybe 10 minutes to press the rest. And the water pressure does 100% of the work.


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## Ajmassa

Well done! That’s a lot of carboys. Great pics. And nice to see I’m not the only one who ends up with wine everywhere!
I rented an 80L bladder last season and thought it was the coolest thing ever. Been making similar volume- <300lb for ~20gal batches. I like the demijohns a lot to cut the clutter and the cleaning. I end up with a demi and a carboy of finished wine.


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## CDrew

I need to do something to cut the footprint. That's why I'm thinking the Intellitanks. Flex tanks would work too. I do have a decent space to work with, but a 15 gallon carboy would be great, hence the thought about the intellitanks. I don't need to ramp up to 1000 case production.


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## CDrew

Update:

I racked my Primitivo off the gross lees this morning and was very careful to leave behind all the sediment. The wine tastes/smells excellent, some firm tannin that I didn't get last year that I think will be nice. The real star of the show was the Intellitank. It's basically a 15 gallon HDPE carboy with triclamp fittings. The floor foot print is the same as a 5 gallon carboy in a milk crate. As a bonus the manufacturer said you could vacuum rack into it, and so I did. Worked great. But I should have bought 2 of them because I ended up with 32 gallons of Primitivo, so I still have 3 carboys! The plan is the wine will stay where it is now until I bottle it.

https://www.catalyst-manufacturing.com/pages/intellitank-user-s-manual

I am going to re-rack the 23 gallons of Syrah later today, since it looks like I left too much sediment, and I don't want issues with spoilage organisms or funky smells.

And as a cellar update, I am hoping to pick some Petite Sirah and maybe some Cabernet tomorrow if I can get my son-in-law to give me a hand.


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## CDrew

The Syrah and Primitivo are racked and away in the dark completing MLF.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to harvest some Petite Sirah and since I had some help visiting from LA we picked about 300 pounds of Petite Sirah from a vinyard in Contra Costa county. Its a very nice wine growing area just south east of me, and similar to Suisun Valley. Enzyme treatment overnight with Lallemand EX, then pitched this morning with Avante yeast! I hope to have it off and running by tomorrow morning.

Brix 24.5 at harvest

I wanted to get some PS to blend with my Primitivo and this pick fell into place perfectly.


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## CDrew

I could use some oak advice at this point.

-I have French Medium "wine stix" that I got from MoreWine that I'm going to use in the Syrah. Looks simple. 1 stix per carboy!

-I have nothing for the Primitivo. I like the look of the round oak balls to toss in the carboy. Anyone use these?

-How do you sterilize the oak of any type prior to putting it into the wine? Spray with StarSan or KMBS ? I was considering steaming in a vegetable steamer. That should heat it to 212F without changing it like boiling would. Just curious if anyone has done that.


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## Boatboy24

CDrew said:


> The Syrah and Primitivo are racked and away in the dark completing MLF.
> 
> Yesterday, I had the opportunity to harvest some Petite Sirah and since I had some help visiting from LA we picked about 300 pounds of Petite Sirah from a vinyard in Contra Cost county. Its a very nice wine growing area just south east of me, and similar to Suisun Valley. Enzyme treatment overnight with Lallemand EX, then pitched this morning with Avante yeast! I hope to have it off and running by tomorrow morning.
> 
> Brix 24.5 at harvest
> 
> I wanted to get some PS to blend with my Primitivo and this pick fell into place perfectly.



Great looking grapes!

Regarding the oak, I don't do anything to it. Just keep it sealed in its package once it is opened. I use chips in primary and cubes during aging (barrels are all neutral). I know a few people have used the spheres (I think they're called xoakers) - believe @ceeaton is one of them. Maybe he can chime in.


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## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> 1. I have French Medium "wine stix" that I got from MoreWine that I'm going to use in the Syrah. Looks simple. 1 stix per carboy!
> 
> 2. I have nothing for the Primitivo. I like the look of the round oak balls to toss in the carboy. Anyone use these?
> 
> 3. How do you sterilize the oak of any type prior to putting it into the wine?



Great pics man. 

1. The stix/spirals I’ve been tying fishing line to em and fasten up through the bung to the airlock. Makes for simple removal, and ya can keep it suspended in the middle of the wine. 

2. Boatboy beat me to it. Craig @ceeaton is THE xoakers man. I’m sure he’ll offer his wisdom momentarily. 

3. A much discussed topic here. Not 1 accepted standard way. Tho many go right from packaging to wine, myself included. As long is my wine is properly sulphited I don’t worry about it. So far so good.


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## CDrew

Cool. Thanks for some oak help. I'm going to go for the xoakers at MoreWine's recommended dose rates. They have had excellent recs so far so will stay with the program for now.

An Update on the Petite Sirah picked yesterday:

I'll give a shout out to the Avante yeast. I pitched 1 gm per gallon after a GoFerm rehydration almost exactly 12 hours ago, and I already have a good cap formed. I did the first nutrient feed with Fermaid K 1gm per gallon this evening. Likely tomorrow evening, I'll give it 1.5 gm per gallon of Fermaid 0 and that will be it. Going to inoculate with CH16 MLB tomorrow too once it's really rocking. Very happy with progress so far, but the Avante looks like a long term winner. One of my wine making friends had a major H2S problem last year and nice to know that I'm genetically immune. It's like an H2S vaccine.

I have 40 grams of Avante yeast left over that I won't use this season, so if anyone wants it, I'll offer to mail it out tomorrow. This is enough for a 40 gallon ferment. Send me a PM with your address and it's on the way. I'll check in the am and get it on the way to you.

Just after punch down:


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## CDrew

Mainly to keep track of this:

Petite Sirah:

Last night just before bed added Fermaid K 1g/gallon

This AM (24 hours after pitching yeast) Fermentation is at full tilt.
Brix 25>>>>20 in the last 24 hours

The must has warmed a bit to 75F and so I inoculated with CH16 MLB culture

I assume I'll be at 18 brix or so by this evening and will add Fermaid 0 1.5 gm/gallon

This PS has beautiful color. It looks like purple ink.

Interesting, the smell of fermentation with the Avante is very clean. Even with clean ferments before, this is a whole different level of neutral wine smell. I'm impressed. Impressed enough I want to try other Renaissance yeasts like Muse, though the Avante as advertised is a better choice for high brix, quick fermentation and high alcohol levels. It also consumes Malic acid during fermentation so what's not to like!

Hope to press this Saturday or Sunday after work.


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## Carotz

CDrew said:


> After work today, a big wine making effort.
> 
> First I racked the Syrah into clean carboys. Have 23 gallons and a bit to drink tonight. Tastes and smells awesome. Still fermenting a bit. It's deep and dark. The vacuum racking with the allinone works great. It's a little slow with this much wine but it worked great and I racked from wine on the floor to carboys on a table.
> 
> After that was done switched gears to the Primitivo. It's still going a bit. Brix is near zero but in the carboys it's still fermenting. Ended up with 36 gallons. likely will be 33 once racked off the gross lees in a couple of days but it's a lot of wine. I got the leftovers at crush and it was a lot more than I bargained for.
> 
> I am close to out of carboys. I know that having too much wine is a first world problem, but there it is. Racking the Primitivo will mean filling, then cleaning, then filling then cleaning etc. I can't wait. I think I'm going to order some Intellitanks.
> 
> But I have to say the bladder press makes short work of the pressing. I like the romance of the screw press, but noone would ever go back to a screw press from a bladder press. Once it's full and the free run is done, it's maybe 10 minutes to press the rest. And the water pressure does 100% of the work.
> 
> View attachment 51323


 With my Primitivo/pitit Syrah blend I usually yield 2.8-2.9 gal per 32lbs gross liquid


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## Carotz

Carotz said:


> With my Primitivo/pitit Syrah blend I usually yield 2.8-2.9 gal per 32lbs gross liquid


32lbs of grape that is


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## Boatboy24

CDrew said:


> This PS has beautiful color. It looks like purple ink.



Just one of the reasons I love PS. Crazy dark - stains everything, including the test glasses. 

My neighbor commented on that as he was helping me press today. He wasn't familiar w/ the varietal, but he and his wife both like big, tannic wines. He subsequently went out and bought some after we pressed.


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## CDrew

Boatboy24 said:


> Just one of the reasons I love PS. Crazy dark - stains everything, including the test glasses.
> 
> My neighbor commented on that as he was helping me press today. He wasn't familiar w/ the varietal, but he and his wife both like big, tannic wines. He subsequently went out and bought some after we pressed.



So it's so dark, it stains the HDPE bucket I used to move it around. Had to clean it out with Oxyclean. I think I'm going to use about half of it to blend with the Primitivo, and the rest I'll bottle as it's own thing.

I've also noticed that the Enzyme treatment before fermentation makes a huge difference in color extraction. I've used the Lallzyme EX and Lallzyme EX-V, both work great. I can't honestly tell the difference when used.


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## Boatboy24

CDrew said:


> So it's so dark, it stains the HDPE bucket I used to move it around. Had to clean it out with Oxyclean. I think I'm going to use about half of it to blend with the Primitivo, and the rest I'll bottle as it's own thing.
> 
> I've also noticed that the Enzyme treatment before fermentation makes a huge difference in color extraction. I've used the Lallzyme EX and Lallzyme EX-V, both work great. I can't honestly tell the difference when used.



I love blending Zin (primitivo) with PS. Makes a fantastic wine. 15-20% PS is where I usually end up. Usually start at 10%, and make samples between there and 25% to test. 

Agree on the enzymes.


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## CK55

Boatboy24 said:


> I love blending Zin (primitivo) with PS. Makes a fantastic wine. 15-20% PS is where I usually end up. Usually start at 10%, and make samples between there and 25% to test.
> 
> Agree on the enzymes.


Zinfandel is deff the most used term as like 93% of all the zin in the world is in the us. With italy basically having the rest. So I just use zin because they can label it as zin in Italy. 

But that sounds like a great blending ratio


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## ceeaton

CDrew said:


> Cool. Thanks for some oak help. I'm going to go for the xoakers at MoreWine's recommended dose rates. They have had excellent recs so far so will stay with the program for now.


Sorry for the delayed reply, work is nastily busy (better than the alternative, for sure).

That's a good amount to start with (at least that's where I started). They can take up to a year to remove all the goodies, but they don't impart as sharp of an oak flavor like chips can. I didn't sterilize in any way, figured the Kmeta in the wine at that point would be good enough (added them to my Zin after MLF completed).

They also work well in the smoker after you are done with them in the wine. Burn for quite some time.


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## CDrew

ceeaton said:


> Sorry for the delayed reply, work is nastily busy (better than the alternative, for sure).
> 
> That's a good amount to start with (at least that's where I started). They can take up to a year to remove all the goodies, but they don't impart as sharp of an oak flavor like chips can. I didn't sterilize in any way, figured the Kmeta in the wine at that point would be good enough (added them to my Zin after MLF completed).
> 
> They also work well in the smoker after you are done with them in the wine. Burn for quite some time.



Thanks, that's helpful. I'll get some at MoreWine and will add at the end of the month, figuring MLF will be basically done by then.

The smoker idea is a very good one. I went to Alaska twice this summer and have a freezer full of salmon, some of which we will eventually smoke.


----------



## skhnmh

CDrew said:


> I could use some oak advice at this point.
> 
> -I have French Medium "wine stix" that I got from MoreWine that I'm going to use in the Syrah. Looks simple. 1 stix per carboy!
> 
> -I have nothing for the Primitivo. I like the look of the round oak balls to toss in the carboy. Anyone use these?
> 
> -How do you sterilize the oak of any type prior to putting it into the wine? Spray with StarSan or KMBS ? I was considering steaming in a vegetable steamer. That should heat it to 212F without changing it like boiling would. Just curious if anyone has done that.



Hi Drew,
After a lot of experimenting with oak adjuncts, we've found that Stavin Oak Cubes work the best in our IntelliTanks®. The sticks get "stuck" and like with barrels are really hard to get out. The cubes just float out when you clean out the tank. They come sealed in a foil bag so you can just dump in the amount you like. They also have a great calculator on their website.

Cheers,
Steve 
Catalyst Manufacturing


----------



## ceeaton

CDrew said:


> I went to Alaska twice this summer and have a freezer full of salmon, some of which we will eventually smoke.


https://barbecuebible.com/recipe/hot-smoked-salmon/

Yum!


----------



## CDrew

skhnmh said:


> Hi Drew,
> After a lot of experimenting with oak adjuncts, we've found that Stavin Oak Cubes work the best in our IntelliTanks®. The sticks get "stuck" and like with barrels are really hard to get out. The cubes just float out when you clean out the tank. They come sealed in a foil bag so you can just dump in the amount you like. They also have a great calculator on their website.
> Cheers,
> Steve
> Catalyst Manufacturing



Thank you, Steve. The 3/8 inch cubes are a good small size. I need to order a couple more IntelliTanks. I think these are great and I'll be getting 2 or 3 more.


----------



## CDrew

I pressed the Petite Sirah after work today and net yield was 23 gallons. I think I could have pressed a day earlier but had a work commitment until 9pm. Cap was in danger of collapsing this evening when I pressed. I expect 20 gallons or so after racking off the gross lees tomorrow afternoon. Wine tastes great with great color and nice tannin. After then next rack I hope to have 20 gallons going forward. Just hoping the extra day before press doesn't do any harm.

I'm kind of impressed with this Avante yeast which by specs seems ideal for nearly any red wine. Anyone know of any problems, even theoretical? It's quick, clean, no H2S, ferments to dry with no issues at all.

No pictures since I didn't finish cleaning up until after dark, but my wine making gear like the press, my fermenters etc are cleaned up with PBW, all residues removed and ready for 2019.


----------



## CDrew

I got the Petite Sirah racked off the gross lees and tucked away into the guest shower. We are not having company until Christmas so it can sit there and complete MLF in style.

I have about 22 gallons and it tastes great. I was even able to combine some left over Petite Sirah with some left over Primitivo making my first blend of the 2018 vintage.


----------



## CDrew

So here is the rest in a closet. Syrah on the left and Primitivo on the right. You can see how space efficient the IntelliTank is-It holds 15 gallons and doesn't take up space the way carboys do. It's pretty heavy though and I put it on a Harbor Freight movers dolly. I need a few more of those! Great product for small scale production.

So this is all the wine I'm going to make this year, but it's about 70 gallons. I was going to make some Cabernet, but I'm out of carboys and energy. It was a busy 3 weeks! 

This was my 3rd year wine making and my second taking it seriously. I learned a lot in the last year, realized that enzymes, and tannin additives make a huge difference and will continue over time. I also think that the Avante yeast is a permanent go to. Next step is to solve the oak puzzle without a barrel.

I got lucky on some really excellent grapes for 2018 and I'm hoping that I can make something of the resulting wine.


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## CK55

CDrew said:


> View attachment 51643
> View attachment 51644


Nice job  I started my small 5 gallon batch of field blend as im calling it 40 year old vine wine. 

I am eager to hear more as the time goes on, I am really interested to see your finished product.


----------



## Johnd

CDrew said:


> I got the Petite Sirah racked off the gross lees and tucked away into the guest shower. We are not having company until Christmas so it can sit there and complete MLF in style.
> 
> I have about 22 gallons and it tastes great. I was even able to combine some left over Petite Sirah with some left over Primitivo making my first blend of the 2018 vintage.
> 
> View attachment 51642



LOL!!! Love the shower decor! Don’t think I’ve ever seen that before, though I once thawed out some frozen must buckets in the bathtub. Looks like you had a pretty good year, congrats!


----------



## CDrew

Another big day today. Racked all 3 (primitivo, syrah, and petite sirah) into Intellitanks for aging until next fall, when I kind of need to bottle to make room for more wine! Spent most of the day at it between the set-up, the actual racking and the clean up. The clean up meant taking 12 carboys, completely cleaning and getting them ready for next year.

I am really liking the sanitary fittings that come with the Intellitanks. I used the racking system they sell in conjunction with the all in one wine pump to move the wine from carboys into the tanks. I added oak to the tanks with the Stavin wine cubes 2.5oz/5 gallons.

I ended up with a 4 full 15 gallon intellitanks. 2 of the Primitivo, and 1 each of Syrah, and Petite Sirah. I also ended up with a bonus 6 gallon carboy of 50/50 Primitivo/Petite Sirah, and a 6 gallon of Syrah, and a 3 gallon of Petite SIrah. As well as a nearly full 750ml of mixed everything which I am going to drink tonight. 

I'm super stoked though. The flavors are great, the color is great, and I think I've beat the problem of wine that is too light with the enzyme treatment. It's going to be tough to wait 2+ years to really go after it but even the new wine I'm drinking now is very good. Already it's miles better than last year.

I'll try and edit with pictures of my "closet winery". The Intellitanks are ideal for this level of production, and the sanitary fittings are a huge bonus. Makes it a clean and neat set up, though it does take longer. But once set, it's quick. But I need a bigger closet. The only nice part is a pretty much permanent temp of 58F.

I also feel I stressed the All In One to the max today, racking 70 gallons of wine in quick succession. It did the job though, so I'm holding off on buying a bigger vacuum pump.


----------



## stickman

You must have had a good vacuum going, is that a bung in one of the carboys?


----------



## CDrew

stickman said:


> You must have had a good vacuum going, is that a bung in one of the carboys?




Ha-yes. I gave it too much of a smack and it popped inside the neck. So I pushed it all the way in and will retrieve in time.


----------



## stickman

I've had it happen a couple times myself, I was degassing a full 15gal demijohn, still have a few wine stains on the wall.


----------



## CDrew

Update:

My wife asked me to bottle a magnum of the 2018 Petite Sirah to give to my daughter and son-in-law for Christmas (they helped to pick the grapes). I protested that it's WAY TOO EARLY but this was not heard. I did have a 1/2 gallon left over Petite SIrah that didn't make the main event sitting in a growler, and so that got bottled with a glass left over for me.

This is by far the best wine I've made. Good fruit, great color, excellent (young) flavor. No Oak, so it basically is a neuvo Petite Sirah, but dang it's good if I say so myself. In a year or two after a bit of oak (the main 20 gallons has oak cubes on board already) this should really be good. It makes me want to taste the other 2018's but that will have to wait for a racking day in the spring.

Magnum next to a normal bottle of wine for scale:


----------



## NorCal

Cheers @CDrew. Not sure how I missed this thread the first time through, I was probably busy with my own harvest. I live right up the road from you in Loomis. Have you joined or got to know any of the Sacramento Home Winemakers or the Placer County group? There are a handful of us here that go in and buy grapes, I think we did close to 4 tons collectively last year. Also, a fellow car guy. You have the same cherry picker as I do  Drop me a PM if you would like to talk.


----------



## CDrew

I was inspired by @NorCal 's barrel tasting and so I did a version of the same. My wine is in 15 gallon Poly Intellitanks and has had Stavin oak cubes for about 2 months. I was also concerned that they might be "overoaked" because though I had followed the Morewine dosing recommendations to the letter, another source suggested that was on the high side of their recommendations. The reason there are 4 glasses is I have 4 Intellitanks. 2 with the same Primitivo and 1 each of Syrah and Petite SIrah.

Tasting notes:

Primitivo: Good fruit flavors, and I'm not getting a lot of pepper notes. Color is excellent for type and there is a bit of tannin astringency in the aftertaste. Not overoaked, though you can tell it is there. No off flavors or smells. And no difference between the tanks either.

Petite Sirah: Darker, good clarity for 2 months along. Very good fruit and lots of tannin, which I hope becomes "structure" over time. Not overoaked at all, and in fact, barely detectable.

Syrah: Definitely my short term favorite. Tastes "big" with lots of fruit, and soft tannin in the background. Almost as dark as the Petite Sirah. Already would be great with something like Lasagne (sorry Francophiles). I can taste just a hint of oak, which I think is about right for the style I'm shooting for.

Primitivo75/Petite Sirah25: This was surprisingly good for young wine. Even 25% Petite Sirah darkened the Primitivo up noticeably. I'll likely blend 20-25% Petite Sirah into the final Primitivo when I bottle it. More taste tests in the future.

Overall conclusion: Good progress, not overoaked and a huge improvement from last year!! Going to let everything ride awhile(oak and all) before racking.

And as a bonus, I purged the small headspaces with CO2 when I buttoned everything up.


----------



## Bill McNab

CDrew said:


> I pressed the Petite Sirah after work today and net yield was 23 gallons. I think I could have pressed a day earlier but had a work commitment until 9pm. Cap was in danger of collapsing this evening when I pressed. I expect 20 gallons or so after racking off the gross lees tomorrow afternoon. Wine tastes great with great color and nice tannin. After then next rack I hope to have 20 gallons going forward. Just hoping the extra day before press doesn't do any harm.
> 
> I'm kind of impressed with this Avante yeast which by specs seems ideal for nearly any red wine. Anyone know of any problems, even theoretical? It's quick, clean, no H2S, ferments to dry with no issues at all.
> 
> No pictures since I didn't finish cleaning up until after dark, but my wine making gear like the press, my fermenters etc are cleaned up with PBW, all residues removed and ready for 2019.


----------



## Bill McNab

Hi,
I see a few mentions about Avante red wine yeast, favorable comments.
Can anyone give me a supplier's name that sells the yeast.
I am looking for smaller packages than 500mg, more like a bunch of 5mg or 10 mg packages. Enough for 40 gallons of wine.
Thanks in advance,
Bill.


----------



## CDrew

Lodi Wine Lab will supply smaller amounts. They weighed up 100 grams for me out of a 500 g pouch. Very good people to deal with.


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Lodi Wine Lab will supply smaller amounts. They weighed up 100 grams for me out of a 500 g pouch. Very good people to deal with.



And to expand on that- they also offer 8gram and 60gram packets on their website. 

Nice tasting notes. Also, I may be picking your brain about your thoughts on the Intelitanks in the future.


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa5983 said:


> And to expand on that- they also offer 8gram and 60gram packets on their website.
> 
> Nice tasting notes. Also, I may be picking your brain about your thoughts on the Intelitanks in the future.



When I was in there in October they were out of the smaller sizes. They will certainly restock by next summer. But despite that, they didn't blink about opening a bigger brick of yeast and weighing out enough for me. (The same I sent to you). And, BTW, next summer I'm buying a 500 gm brick.

I'd be happy to discuss Intellitanks as I've been gradually collecting the sanitary fittings and hardware to use all the options. So far, I'm using them like 15 gallon unbreakable, space efficient carboys, and have only installed a bottom spout in one of them-Going to use that for blending and bottling. But they are an excellent product and I'm surprised more people don't use them. The 2 significant advantages over a FlexTank is that they are built for vacuum OR pressure racking and they take sanitary (triclamp) fittings which are great to work with. And the same fittings can also be adapted to Sanke Kegs which can be used as 15 gallon storage containers. And since the Intellitanks and Sanke Kegs hold the same volume, it's a nice synergistic way to age and rack wine. Anyway, I like the Intellitanks a lot, and plan to get at least 2 more. They are very easy to handle IF you get the optional handle which I highly recommend.


----------



## Bill McNab

Ajmassa5983 said:


> And to expand on that- they also offer 8gram and 60gram packets on their website.
> 
> Nice tasting notes. Also, I may be picking your brain about your thoughts on the Intelitanks in the future.


----------



## Bill McNab

Thank you so much for the info on Lodi Wine Lab.
I will contact them this coming fall for yeast and other items.
Y'all are lucky dogs being so close to the source of fine grapes.
Bill.


----------



## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> I pressed the Petite Sirah after work today and net yield was 23 gallons. I think I could have pressed a day earlier but had a work commitment until 9pm. Cap was in danger of collapsing this evening when I pressed. I expect 20 gallons or so after racking off the gross lees tomorrow afternoon. Wine tastes great with great color and nice tannin. After then next rack I hope to have 20 gallons going forward. Just hoping the extra day before press doesn't do any harm.
> 
> I'm kind of impressed with this Avante yeast which by specs seems ideal for nearly any red wine. Anyone know of any problems, even theoretical? It's quick, clean, no H2S, ferments to dry with no issues at all.
> 
> No pictures since I didn't finish cleaning up until after dark, but my wine making gear like the press, my fermenters etc are cleaned up with PBW, all residues removed and ready for 2019.



I have been following this thread, but I confused about the steps... You crushed the grapes after harvesting and you pressed the must after fermenting. Do you also press the grapes once before fermenting? When you transfer from the fermenter to the press, do you pump it? I siphoned mine from fermenter to carboy and had lots of trouble with solids clogging.


----------



## cmason1957

Here are two flowcharts for making wine, one for red, one for white, there are just a few differences in the process between the two. These charts came from https://northeastwinemaking.com/pages/general-guide-to-making-wine-from-grapes.

This is the red wine flow. Crush, ferment (with punch-downs/rackings to keep grapes wet while fermenting), then press, malolactic fermentation (which can happen earlier), racking and aging, to filtering (optional) and bottling




This is the White Wine flow. Grapes crushed, nearly immediately pressed, then settled and racked, fermented, possible malolactic fermentation, clearing, racking, filtering (optional), and finally bottling.


----------



## CDrew

Chuck E said:


> I have been following this thread, but I confused about the steps... You crushed the grapes after harvesting and you pressed the must after fermenting. Do you also press the grapes once before fermenting? When you transfer from the fermenter to the press, do you pump it? I siphoned mine from fermenter to carboy and had lots of trouble with solids clogging.



My process is to crush red grapes prior to fermentation, then ferment, then transfer to the press with a sanitized bucket, then press and transfer the pressed new wine to carboys with a sanitized bucket and a big carboy funnel. Within a day or two of that, you should transfer again to get the wine off the gross lees. @cmason1957 's work flow diagrams are good. I can see where you would have problems if you tried to siphon directly out of the fermenter without pressing.


----------



## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> My process is to crush red grapes prior to fermentation, then ferment, then transfer to the press with a sanitized bucket, then press and transfer the pressed new wine to carboys with a sanitized bucket and a big carboy funnel. Within a day or two of that, you should transfer again to get the wine off the gross lees. @cmason1957 's work flow diagrams are good. I can see where you would have problems if you tried to siphon directly out of the fermenter without pressing.



Thanks for both replies. It makes sense to me now. I have another question. I really enjoy the "Carnivore" brand Zinfandels and Cabs & the Mettler Winery Zinfandels and Cabs. They are both inky black and have a wonderful "mouth feel." I want to have those qualities in the wines I make. While looking at CDrew's pictures it appears that he is going for the same thing. The wine maker notes on those company's web sites lists "cold soaking" as the beginning of their process. Is "cold soaking" the same as extended maceration?


----------



## cmason1957

Cold Soaking happens before fermentation. You get you must all ready to go, then keep it at a very cool temperature for a bit, before fermenting. I have done it, instead of an extended maceration, since I have the capability to put my fermentation buckets into my fridge and I don't have a big mouth kind of fermentation environment I can seal from the air. If you decide to go this way, below 40 F is what you want, colder the better. As a side note, one of the commercial wines I like to drink that is made in Missouri cold ferments, I think they do their ferments at about 45 or 50. The winemaker was quite proud one year that it took almost 2 months to ferment. I would assume they do this in a closed tank, blanketed with some type of inert gas or other.


----------



## CDrew

Chuck E said:


> Thanks for both replies. It makes sense to me now. I have another question. I really enjoy the "Carnivore" brand Zinfandels and Cabs & the Mettler Winery Zinfandels and Cabs. They are both inky black and have a wonderful "mouth feel." I want to have those qualities in the wines I make. While looking at CDrew's pictures it appears that he is going for the same thing. The wine maker notes on those company's web sites lists "cold soaking" as the beginning of their process. Is "cold soaking" the same as extended maceration?




My take is that many Zinfandels are fairly light colored and some wineries even emphasize that style. But really dark ones likely have a really dark wine (often Petite Sirah) blended in to complement the flavor and color. That's what I'm going for.

I also believe the cold soaking and extended maceration are not really practical on a home scale. Too much opportunity for things to go wrong, especially with the extended maceration technique. But the use of Enzymes like Lallazyme EX or EXV kind of give you the best of both worlds. At least in my brief experience, they made a huge difference in color extraction right up front. I also used some fermentation tannin this year (FT Rouge), and I believe that also helps to stabilize color. For sure I am much happier with this year's result than last.

I have 30 gallons of Primitivo (basically Zinfandel) which is enough to experiment with a bit. I'll likely blend 20% Petite Sirah into all of it, and I have already a 6 gallon carboy of 50/50 Primitivo/PS that was made from two 3 gallon left over portions of each. That was kind of accidental, but I am looking forward to how it eventually turns out.

But bottom line-Look hard at Enzyme treatement pre-ferment. Huge difference for a simple addition.


----------



## Johnd

CDrew said:


> My take is that many Zinfandels are fairly light colored and some wineries even emphasize that style. But really dark ones likely have a really dark wine (often Petite Sirah) blended in to complement the flavor and color. That's what I'm going for.
> 
> I also believe the cold soaking and extended maceration are not really practical on a home scale. Too much opportunity for things to go wrong, especially with the extended maceration technique. But the use of Enzymes like Lallazyme EX or EXV kind of give you the best of both worlds. At least in my brief experience, they made a huge difference in color extraction right up front. I also used some fermentation tannin this year (FT Rouge), and I believe that also helps to stabilize color. For sure I am much happier with this year's result than last.
> 
> I have 30 gallons of Primitivo (basically Zinfandel) which is enough to experiment with a bit. I'll likely blend 20% Petite Sirah into all of it, and I have already a 6 gallon carboy of 50/50 Primitivo/PS that was made from two 3 gallon left over portions of each. That was kind of accidental, but I am looking forward to how it eventually turns out.
> 
> But bottom line-Look hard at Enzyme treatement pre-ferment. Huge difference for a simple addition.



If you have a chance, try a bottle of Turley Zinfandel, it’s a lot of what I didn’t think a zin could be, and is a pure vineyard specific varietal, nothing blended in. Not as heavy as a big cab, but can stand up to some pretty big meals, love it with venison and duck / andouille gumbo.


----------



## CDrew

Johnd said:


> If you have a chance, try a bottle of Turley Zinfandel, it’s a lot of what I didn’t think a zin could be, and is a pure vineyard specific varietal, nothing blended in. Not as heavy as a big cab, but can stand up to some pretty big meals, love it with venison and duck / andouille gumbo.



Will do. I drive by Turley's Amador operation at least once per month and will stop in next time through (which may be Sunday if my wife doesn't have other plans).


----------



## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> My take is that many Zinfandels are fairly light colored and some wineries even emphasize that style. But really dark ones likely have a really dark wine (often Petite Sirah) blended in to complement the flavor and color. That's what I'm going for.
> 
> I also believe the cold soaking and extended maceration are not really practical on a home scale. Too much opportunity for things to go wrong, especially with the extended maceration technique. But the use of Enzymes like Lallazyme EX or EXV kind of give you the best of both worlds. At least in my brief experience, they made a huge difference in color extraction right up front. I also used some fermentation tannin this year (FT Rouge), and I believe that also helps to stabilize color. For sure I am much happier with this year's result than last.
> 
> I have 30 gallons of Primitivo (basically Zinfandel) which is enough to experiment with a bit. I'll likely blend 20% Petite Sirah into all of it, and I have already a 6 gallon carboy of 50/50 Primitivo/PS that was made from two 3 gallon left over portions of each. That was kind of accidental, but I am looking forward to how it eventually turns out.
> 
> But bottom line-Look hard at Enzyme treatement pre-ferment. Huge difference for a simple addition.



Can I ask ask about your grape prep? 
Do you wash the grapes before crushing? Do you treat the crush with KMeta before inoculating?


----------



## CDrew

Chuck E said:


> Can I ask ask about your grape prep?
> Do you wash the grapes before crushing? Do you treat the crush with KMeta before inoculating?



No washing. That's generally considered a bad idea. Pick and then stem/crush.

Not that I am an expert, but yes, I sulfite the crush 40ppm (estimated), mix really well, then add enzymes, mix well, let sit overnight, then the following morning, inoculate with yeast. So I guess I do an unintentional overnight "cold soak" (more of a cool soak) while the enzymes do their thing.


----------



## CDrew




----------



## CDrew

Finally finished cleaning up, so here the story of the picture above.

The goal today was to figure out all the sanitary fittings to vacuum rack into the empty Sanke Kegs, which will basically be stainless aging tanks to bulk age until bottling. All 4 of my Intellitanks were in use, so the Kegs made a sanitary and airtight place to store some wine. So with a t fitting and the IntelliTank racking cane and it's extension, it is possible to do a clean and sanitary rack using only sanitary fittings which are so nice to use. No rubber bungs needed! So after everything including all the fittings and gaskets was sanitized with StarSan it was time to move some wine.

I moved the wine to the utility room to get a bit of working room and to have all easy to clean surfaces. Even vacuum racking, you still have a few drips of wine that spill here and there. 

First step was to purge the Sanke kegs with CO2. With the fittings and valves this is easy. Possibly un-needed but I wanted to play with all the toys. Once they were full of CO2, it's only a matter of trading 2 hoses and turn on the vacuum pump. Once it established a vacuum all went as expected. I blended about 10% Petite Sirah into the Primitivo after a quick taste of the mix. The oak is evident now, so I hope it fades a bit over time. I was able to recover all the oak cubes for use in the smoker-thanks for that tip! There was still a whole lot of dissolved CO2 in the wine, more than I expected. I'm not sure how fast that's going to dissipate. I won't be bottling until August, so it has time.

In the end, I racked 31 gallons of the primitivo into 2 Sanke kegs. And the nice part is, they are not only air tight they are also light tight and so do not need to stay in the closet in the wine room. I have the heat turned off to that room and it says about 60F so they can just hang out against the wall.

And one other thing. At the end I still had about 3 gallons in one of the intellitanks. I used the same set up to put the racking cane in the Intellitank, and then the CO2 to pressure rack the final 3 gallons into a carboy. The CO2 works great for moving the win around at low pressure. I thought that was really cool.

I'll try and edit with more pictures. If anyone wants details about IntelliTanks (great product BTW) or using Sanke 15.5 gallon beer kegs, or using Sanitary fittings, please post up.


----------



## CDrew

The pics are not the greatest but the best I could do with the bad lighting.


----------



## CDrew

Slight update...

The 60 gallons in kegs and Intellitanks remained undisturbed.

I had a 6.5 gallon leftover carboy of 50%Petite Sirah and 50% Primitivo. It had been sitting with an oak Winestix since early January. I also had a 5 gallon leftover of Syrah also with a Winestix. Both needed to be racked with sulfite added and oak removed. I used a bit (<250 ml of the 50/50) to top off the Syrah carboy to eliminate headspace, and had about 500ml left over to drink tonight.

Some comments:
-The 50/50 blend is really nice at this point. It's clear, no filtering will be needed. Great dark but appropriate color. Ended up with 6 gallons of the blended wine.
-Also recovered the stopper from the carboy where it popped inside. That was an effort.
-The Syrah is outstanding, even if I made it. Really clear, really dark, appropriate tannin, great fruit flavor. This one is a long term winner I think. Good thing since this 5 gallons makes 20 total!
-There was still a lot of CO2 in both-maybe since the temps have been about 60F since fermentation. The vacuum racking seemed to help. It's warming a bit, so maybe that will help too.
-Not going to do any winemaking until I bottle all the 2018s in July when I get back from Alaska. Might do some wine drinking though!


In other news, a buddy gave me a working Schuco medical vacuum pump with variable vacuum. Looks 80s vintage, I'll try and post a pic. It came out of a hospital during an upgrade but it looks hardly used.

>>>Pending pics<<<


----------



## CDrew

Going to be cutting things very, very close. No wine has been bottled yet as I've either been working or out of town since April. August is the same story. September is shaping up the same too. So that means the first week of October ALL the 2018 is getting bottled, which will be right in the middle of the 2019 grape harvest. 

I am considering buying an Enolmatic. Any advice there? I have the all in one vacuum set up and 2 vacuum pumps, but I think I need something faster so the bottling(70 gallons) can all happen in 1 day. I also have the Ferrari wine spiller, I mean bottler, and a Buon Vino bottler which seems like a better constructed version of the Ferrari, but it leaks after it shuts "off". I may use it though.

But I'd love to hear some real world experience with the Enolmatic.


----------



## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> The pics are not the greatest but the best I could do with the bad lighting.
> 
> 
> View attachment 53208
> View attachment 53209
> View attachment 53210



On your kegs, did you remove the Sanke valve components for the sanitary fittings as shown?


----------



## CDrew

Yes, the valve part of the keg must be removed first. Then you'll need a few gaskets and fittings to make it all work. I wrote up what's needed in an old post. Let me see if I can find it. If I do, I'll come back and edit.



Chuck E said:


> On your kegs, did you remove the Sanke valve components for the sanitary fittings as shown?



Here you go:
@MAJ don't know if you already figured this out. But the top of the Sanke keg is compatible with 2 inch tri-clamp fittings. You need a tri clamp gasket that is flat on one side to make the transition. Those are a bit hard to find, but an inexpensive source is here:
https://www.brewershardware.com/F1GASSIL.html?category_id=253

I have a bunch of 1.5 inch tri-clamp fittings and so to transition from 2 inch to 1.5 inch I used this fitting:
https://www.brewershardware.com/Tri-Clover-Compatible-2x1_5-Cap-Style-Reducer-TCCAPRED20X15.html

And of course, you will also need a 2 inch clamp.

Once you have that, you can get silicone stoppers to fit, though you would need to figure out a way to flow in your inert gas, and then quickly stopper it up before much air mixing occurred.

And if you wanted to get really fancy, something like this could be used:
https://www.brewershardware.com/American-Sanke-Keg-Fermentor-Kit-without-Thermowell.html

Just me, but I think the tri-clamp sanitary fittings are the way to go even for us home winemakers. It seems like overkill at first, but once you start using them, their modular nature is quite useful. There are also a couple of other useful parts that you can get from Catalyst Mfg and MoreWine that allows vacuum racking or pressurized pumping with inert gas or co2. And longer term there are a huge number of fittings that will allow you to do anything you want in your winery using all sanitary fittings. The 3/8 or 1/2 hose barb fittings are particularly useful.


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## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> Yes, the valve part of the keg must be removed first. Then you'll need a few gaskets and fittings to make it all work. I wrote up what's needed in an old post. Let me see if I can find it. If I do, I'll come back and edit.



Thank you very much!


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## CDrew

Did some initial bottling of the 2018 today. I had some straggler carboys that didn't fit in the main bulk of wine and so bottled those. Net was 2 cases of Syrah and 2 cases of a Primitivo/Petite Sirah blend. Of the 2, the Syrah is the clear winner. It's really good already and I hope continues to improve. The blend is a 50% Primitivo and 50% Petite Sirah blend of basically leftovers. The Tannin of the Petite Sirah is still at the forefront, but overall, it's decent. It likely needs another year or more. But no bad tastes, so it's clean and good overall.

I did use the All-In-One vacuum bottling set up for the first time and I'm fairly impressed.

I still have 60 gallons to bottle from 2018!


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## Boatboy24

Did you bottle any of that Bogle Zin?


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## CDrew

Boatboy24 said:


> Did you bottle any of that Bogle Zin?



No, but I used their bottles! Which are weirdly tall in this variety.

I have 2 friends that save wine bottles for me, and one of them really likes the Bogle OVZ (and I agree, it's excellent wine for the $$).

This is likely the last year I'm using recycled bottles. I like the idea of re-using vs recycling, but it's a huge hassle of removing labels, storing cases etc. I have something like 30 cases of empties in my wine room. I think next year I'm going all new bottles.


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## CDrew

In a weekend of backbreaking labor, I picked and started 30 gallons of 2019 Primitivo, then bottled 15 gallons of 2018 Syrah and yielded 6 cases and a magnum. So only 45 gallons of 2018 left to bottle!

And bottled about 1/2 with Normacorc "green" corks. Pretty impressed actually. And, they are not green, just green in the environmental sense. Itialian floor corker handles them just fine.

So bottling-I have tried the Ferrari filler (it's terrible, don't bother), 2 of the Buon Vino bottling devices (terribly messy leakers both), and the AIO vacuum bottler. Of the 3, the AIO is the best but slow. Any other suggestions? Are the gravity bottlers good? What about the Enolmatic? Anyway, I need something better.


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## CDrew

Today was a difficult day. I bottled and corked 20 cases of wine. A good problem I know but a lot of labor to rack, then bottle. I did end up getting an Enolmatic and I have to say, it does a good job as long as you're willing to fiddle with it. But it's far better than any of the other bottling options I have used. I got to the point where I could cork as fast as it filled so that saved a ton of time. But 20 cases of wine is a surprising amount of work. I did 50% of the clean up tonight, but the other 50% will have to happen tomorrow.








But that about wraps up 2018 until it's time to drink it. Right now, it tastes a bit over oaked, so I'm hoping in a year, that calms down. Just realize that the MoreWine recs on Oaking wine are on the high side of what's good and I'd shoot lower. My plan for 2019 is to use about 20-30% of 2018's oak levels.


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## stickman

Looks good, yea 20 cases is a fair amount of work if you did it alone. I like the engine head on the shelf, it's part of the terroir.


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## sour_grapes

stickman said:


> Looks good, yea 20 cases is a fair amount of work if you did it alone. I like the engine head on the shelf, it's part of the terroir.



It would be fantastic to learn that the head is one of two from a V-12, rather than one from an I6.


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## CDrew

sour_grapes said:


> It would be fantastic to learn that the head is one of two from a V-12, rather than one from an I6.



Ha-It's an inline 6 head from a mid '80s Land Cruiser. Not exotic, but a fairly rare part to be intact and un-cracked. I have 2 trucks that have that motor, hence the spare head.

If it was 1/2 of a V-12, it would have 8.4L displacement!


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## stickman

Isn't more usually better for everything?????


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## CDrew

stickman said:


> Isn't more usually better for everything?????



So the modern world amazes me. My Land Cruisers, which I have driven since they were new, make 135 HP from 4.2 Liters displacement. And gets an awesome 12 mpg. Even my later Land Cruiser make 275 HP from 4.5L. THey get there, get the job done, never fail, yet burn fuel like there is an endless cheap supply.

My wife's minivan makes almost 300 HP from 3.5 Liters. It's crazy fast. The kids called it the race van. Much faster than the 350 Nova (from Grandma) I drove in high school. But, it's still a minivan.

And I'm thinking about buying an Accord daily driver that makes 285 HP from 2.0L. The world has changed.


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## Johnd

CDrew said:


> So the modern world amazes me. My Land Cruisers, which I have driven since they were new, make 135 HP from 4.2 Liters displacement. And gets an awesome 12 mpg. Even my later Land Cruiser make 275 HP from 4.5L. THey get there, get the job done, never fail, yet burn fuel like there is an endless cheap supply.
> 
> My wife's minivan makes almost 300 HP from 3.5 Liters. It's crazy fast. The kids called it the race van. Much faster than the 350 Nova (from Grandma) I drove in high school. But, it's still a minivan.
> 
> And I'm thinking about buying an Accord daily driver that makes 285 HP from 2.0L. The world has changed.



That’s terrible. My 6.7 L Turbodiesel F 250 generates 450 HP, is pretty quick for a crew cab 4x4, gets 20 mpg on the highway, 17 around town, it doesn’t care for minivans either.......


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## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> So the modern world amazes me. My Land Cruisers, which I have driven since they were new, make 135 HP from 4.2 Liters displacement. And gets an awesome 12 mpg. Even my later Land Cruiser make 275 HP from 4.5L. THey get there, get the job done, never fail, yet burn fuel like there is an endless cheap supply.
> 
> My wife's minivan makes almost 300 HP from 3.5 Liters. It's crazy fast. The kids called it the race van. Much faster than the 350 Nova (from Grandma) I drove in high school. But, it's still a minivan.
> 
> And I'm thinking about buying an Accord daily driver that makes 285 HP from 2.0L. The world has changed.



But the Land Cruiser has that "cool" factor that the mini van will never have.


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## Chuck E

CDrew said:


> Yes, the valve part of the keg must be removed first. Then you'll need a few gaskets and fittings to make it all work. I wrote up what's needed in an old post. Let me see if I can find it. If I do, I'll come back and edit.
> 
> Just me, but I think the tri-clamp sanitary fittings are the way to go even for us home winemakers. It seems like overkill at first, but once you start using them, their modular nature is quite useful. There are also a couple of other useful parts that you can get from Catalyst Mfg and MoreWine that allows vacuum racking or pressurized pumping with inert gas or co2. And longer term there are a huge number of fittings that will allow you to do anything you want in your winery using all sanitary fittings. The 3/8 or 1/2 hose barb fittings are particularly useful.



Here is one of my kegs set up for secondary. Thanks for the tips. These sanitary fittings are really slick.


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## CDrew

Chuck E said:


> Here is one of my kegs set up for secondary. Thanks for the tips. These sanitary fittings are really slick.



Very nice. I have found some kegs that have already been converted to welded sanitary fittings, but they are not necessary. A standard keg can be converted so easily with the right parts that I probably would buy only a used one. Recently on the local Craig's List have been 15.5 kegs for as little as $15. Anything less than $50 is a bargain. Great vessels for storing aging wines. I am aging my 2019 Syrah and Primitivo in all stainless with some stavin oak cubes. Hoping for the best, as always. 

I agree that sanitary fittings are the way to go. I plot out what I need, throw it all in the StarSan bath, then pull out what I need and build the racking apparatus. It works crazy well and every connection is a positive one. Vacuum, pressure, closed, open, always the way to go. Cool to see you set up the same. Keep the pics coming!


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## Obbnw

Thanks for the thread and great pictures. I am amazed by the volume of wine made.


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## CDrew

If you've been following this thread, you know I've been thinking the amount of oak was too much. Way too much. Tonight I can say, all is good.

I'm tasting the 2018 Primitivo tonight at 2am. I just got home from work, so it's OK. The oak has FINALLY become ok. And in fact the wine is pretty good. Still has some tannin that needs to settle down, but the overly harsh oak has died down. By 2 years it should be worthy of the rotation.


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## jonathan1500

CDrew said:


> If you've been following this thread, you know I've been thinking the amount of oak was too much. Way too much. Tonight I can say, all is good.
> 
> I'm tasting the 2018 Primitivo tonight at 2am. I just got home from work, so it's OK. The oak has FINALLY become ok. And in fact the wine is pretty good. Still has some tannin that needs to settle down, but the overly harsh oak has died down. By 2 years it should be worthy of the rotation.
> 
> View attachment 61005


So do you think you under-oaked 2019 now?


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## CDrew

jonathan1500 said:


> So do you think you under-oaked 2019 now?



No, and in fact it tastes great. I think the other mistake of 2018 was using M+ oak. You get some harshness with the +, especially at higher dose levels. Although the M+ is really agreeing with the Petite Sirah I made in 2018.

The 2019 is rounding into a much more balanced set of wines. I used all Stavin cubes at Medium toast. The nice part is, I still have 6 months of bulk aging, and if something needs a touch more oak before bottling, easy enough to adjust up. Stavin even publishes a calculator for that.

And I see it's your first post so welcome!


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## jonathan1500

CDrew said:


> No, and in fact it tastes great. I think the other mistake of 2018 was using M+ oak. You get some harshness with the +, especially at higher dose levels. Although the M+ is really agreeing with the Petite Sirah I made in 2018.
> 
> The 2019 is rounding into a much more balanced set of wines. I used all Stavin cubes at Medium toast. The nice part is, I still have 6 months of bulk aging, and if something needs a touch more oak before bottling, easy enough to adjust up. Stavin even publishes a calculator for that.
> 
> And I see it's your first post so welcome!


Yes - my first post after just joining earlier this week. I'm studying up before starting in on my first batch in a few months. I have loved this thread and am more than mildly jealous of your grapes (and Land Cruisers). Any recommendations on equipment must-have's for an upstart?


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## CDrew

Just to update the 2018 vintage, I'm tasting the "normal" non-reserve 2018 Syrah tonight. The "reserve" has less oak. The harsh oak I was worried about is fading fast. The legs in the glass are nice and it's great tasting wine. I'm very pleased. By Fall, it may be mellowed enough for regular cosumption. It should be good for years. 

At this point, I'm happy with all the wines of 2018. The Petite Syrah is very good. It can mellow a bit, but it's good. The Syrah is really coming around. It's good, headed to excellent. The Primitivo is also mellowing a bit. It needs more time to overcome the oak, but prospects are good.

If anything, I have to say that enzymes and clean ferments are your friends. Oak, is a mixed blessing. You need some, not too much. It's easy to go over. Best to go less than you think, and adjust later. The 2019 vintage for me, with more nuanced oak flavors is better, but still a year away from regular consumption.

The learning for me, is that dense powerful wine flavors like petite syrah and syrah can handle more oak. Less tannic wines like Primitivo need much less oak. Great learning here for me.


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## CDrew

Drinking the 2018 Petite Sirah tonight. It's maturing into a really nice wine. The oak is there but well integrated, the fruit is there, and all around it's great. Likely not super long legged, but for the next few years this is definitely in play. I still have 5 cases so this one should be around awhile.

Funny, I expected too much oak (the theme in 2018) but this is good and headed to better. I'll taste again in 6 months and expect continued improvement.


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## bluecrab

@CDrew I've enjoyed reading this thread. Do you remember how much oak you added per gallon in 2018 and 2019? Also, what kind of oak (American M+ cubes, etc.) I only get one chance a year to tweak my winemaking. Sharing your experience is greatly appreciated.


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## CDrew

For 2018 I added on MoreWine's published recommendation 2.5 oz of Hungarian M+ cubes per 5 gallons. Especially at first, that was way too much. For 2019 I switched to French Medium cubes, and used the StaVin calculator and went for 25-35% new oak, which ended up being about 1/2 my previous addition. This is much more satisfactory. Doing the same for 2020 though I'm adjusting based on which grape variety-Syrah gets a bit more, Sangiovese gets much less. I'm still figuring this out too, especially since barrels just are not practical for me.


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## bluecrab

@CDrew Did you mean to say 2.5 oz per five gallons?

"MoreWine! recommends using: 2 to 2.5 ounces of oak cubes per 5 gallons of liquid wine (not must). More can always be added later, if needed."
[https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/oakinfopaper09.pdf]


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## CDrew

bluecrab said:


> @CDrew Did you mean to say 2.5 oz per five gallons?
> 
> "MoreWine! recommends using: 2 to 2.5 ounces of oak cubes per 5 gallons of liquid wine (not must). More can always be added later, if needed."
> [https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/oakinfopaper09.pdf]



Yes, and I went with the high end of the recommendations. It's worked out ok in the big wines like the Syrah and Petite Sirah, but it's too much for the Primitivo. It's gradually getting better, but I'm not making that mistake again.


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## CDrew

CDrew said:


> Just to update the 2018 vintage, I'm tasting the "normal" non-reserve 2018 Syrah tonight. The "reserve" has less oak. The harsh oak I was worried about is fading fast. The legs in the glass are nice and it's great tasting wine. I'm very pleased. By Fall, it may be mellowed enough for regular consumption. It should be good for years.



I have not tasted the "non-reserve" 2018 syrah since June, but I'm having it tonight with a Thai curry. (weird combo, I know).

I'm putting this Syrah in the regular rotation. It's surprising how much better it is now than 5 months ago. The oak has fully integrated itself and I no longer even taste the original campfire quality that had me so down. But the fruit has come back to the fore. Some tannin is still there. Now that needs to fade a little bit. Heh, heh, I have 5 more cases! So this at least, is a 2018 success. It only took 26 months. I can see drinking this over 3-4 years just to see what happens.

And that has been the most interesting thing about home wine making. It seems that commercial wine is released when good, and doesn't change that much. But home wine, because we start tasting it early, is often harsh and then gets good only after we have despaired it never will, or have already consumed most of the vintage. We should probably make the wine and then not taste for 4 years or so. Only then are the results revealed.

I'm just hoping the Primitivo from 2018 follows this path. It got the same oak, it is still has too much oak. I have a lot of it, maybe 6 more cases. But the oak needs to mellow still. Maybe by 2022 it will be ready for the rotation!


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## CDrew

Interesting, but the 2018 Syrah gets better and better. I've not tasted in awhile but having it tonight with a Thai soup. We love Thai cooking. Dang, it's good. The bad oak elements are gone in the background.


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## Ajmassa

Yeah I remember hearing something once about wine improving with age. 

Looks like the story checks out.


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## CDrew

I have to say, I am having the Primitivo from 2018 tonight. I've tasted too much oak for way too long. But I've not tried it in months. Tonight, it's good. The acid is finally coming to the forefront not the oak. Dang, you have to be patient with wine. It still has too much oak, but not by much. I may have to drink the whole bottle to make sure. Anyway, I'm much less despondent over the 2018 oaking debacle. But this is a cautionary tale. Keep the oak foot print light.


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