# Breathable Carboy Bungs?



## crushday (Sep 1, 2020)

I got fed up a few weeks ago. Since I started my winemaking career, I've lost gallons of wine using glass carboys. To date, I've had seven glass carboys, full of wine, break for various reasons. None of which I was around to witness - only left to clean up the mess. For you who have experienced this same dilemma, you'll agree it's frustrating, tiresome and sad.

Recently I purchased some plastic carboys for long term aging. My regular bungs don't fit the necks of the PET carboys. The ones I could find that fit the new carboys are "breathable". I'm not sure I trust breathable...

Does anyone have any failure experiences? Or stories of long term aging success? I plan on 12 months aging at a minimum. Do these things really work for that? Link below:





__





Silicone Bung (Breathable) - PET Carboy (#10) | MoreWine


Fits PET Carboys. A breathable Silicone stopper that acts as both a stopper and an airlock. Unique design allows CO2 pressure to escape but keeps Oxygen...




morewinemaking.com





Any reviews would be appreciated.


----------



## DPCellars (Sep 2, 2020)

I use these following secondary and through aging. Granted, I've only completed 2 bottlings and my longest aging was about 5 months, I really like them. 

They were recommended to me by a local winery who use them in some of their barrel aging. I'm pretty impressed with their wines, so I guess they're okay.


----------



## scruff_farrier (Sep 2, 2020)

I had watched this youtube video a while back and have been thinking about switching. But it's a little 3 minute long review on the silicone bungs.


----------



## Johnd (Sep 2, 2020)

I’ve been using glass carboy and silicone bungs for aging wine for years. Never lost a carboy, a bung, or an ounce of wine as a result. If you’ve broken 7 carboys, you’re doing something wrong.

At any rate, the bungs work great on my glass vessels, never tried on plastic.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 2, 2020)

I've gone through the journey, starting with the 3 piece airlocks, moving to the S shaped, and, within the last year or so, trying out the 'breathable' type. So far, so good. With each order from MoreWine, I'll likely continue to pick up more and phase out the others. Plenty of support for them from members here if you dig around.

Curious how/why you lost 7 carboys.


----------



## jumby (Sep 2, 2020)

I've been using them for the past 2 years, in PET carboys with no ill effects. Most all of my wines stay in the carboy for about a year before bottling. I love the fact that I don't have to worry about my air locks going dry. I currently have 8 carboys, at various stages of aging with breathable bungs in them.


----------



## stickman (Sep 2, 2020)

Were the broken carboys produced in China?


----------



## crushday (Sep 2, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> Curious how/why you lost 7 carboys.


Ok, my fears around the bungs have subsided. Since I did have seven broken glass carboys, I agree with @Johnd - I WAS doing something wrong. Remember about a year ago I was asking about the tensile and compression strength of carboys because I was stacking them? You might remember too how many alarms went off on the forum when I posted pictures...

I think staking did enough structural damage that eventually the lower tier, four carboys, cracked and emptied their contents. A positive outcome discovery is that wine beautifully stains concrete a dull purple hue. Really nice for those who like dull purple hues on their concrete floor...lol. BTW - I stopped stacking after this fateful event.

The most recent three were from a bad carboy purchase. It has been my practice to purchase Italian made carboys. However, through CoVid the supply for those has ground to a halt. A couple months ago, I bought six inferior copy cat carboys manufactured in the world's most populous country. Three of them cracked and I lost all the contents within a week. This is what led me to purchase three plastic ones and I transferred the wine in the three remaining copy cats to the PET carboys.

Upon inspection of the now empty copy cats, two had cracks. It was a close call... Never again!

Thanks for taking time to answer my initial question...


----------



## crushday (Sep 2, 2020)

stickman said:


> Were the broken carboys produced in China?


Indeed, Stickman. And, never again will I purchase them. But to be fair, four broken ones were of my doing from when I was stacking carboys.


----------



## reeflections (Sep 2, 2020)

OK, this thread just scared the hell outta me. How does one know (after purchase) if a carboy was made in China?


----------



## stickman (Sep 2, 2020)

Most of the carboys made in Mexico and Italy will be stamped on the bottom accordingly.


----------



## MiBor (Sep 2, 2020)

I had two 5gal carboys crack on me this spring. I have about a dozen 6gal Italian carboys that I've been using for years without problems. They all have the words "Made In Italy" molded in the glass. The two that cracked were the only ones made in "you know where" and they looked and worked fine for about 6 months, until they cracked out of the blue. I have to say that I never stacked them unprotected and that I make a beefy wooden crate out of 2x4s with insulation foam on the bottom for each one of them. The crates make the carboys stack-able in vertical position (for storage) and the wood takes all the stress away from glass. 
I also use the breathable bungs after secondary and never had a problem with them.


----------



## mainshipfred (Sep 2, 2020)

What scares the crap out of me are demijohns. I was gifted Two 54 liter ones and the glass is so thin I can't bring myself around to using them. They are currently decorations in my office.


----------



## stickman (Sep 2, 2020)

I have two of the older demijohns and one new one, they are all made in Italy, but as you indicated the older demi's are thin. I compared the empty weight from old to new and found the newer one to be 700 grams heaver. I also looked at my carboys, I've got 14 total, 7 of them are older carboys made in the US by Owens-Illinois Glass Company. Based on the date codes, most of these carboys were made in the early 50's, though one was made in 1934. They are thin compared to the more current Italian carboys, and they have had no protection other than a paper bag, but in the 30 years that I've used them I've never had one break.


----------



## reeflections (Sep 2, 2020)

That's interesting. I have a total of eight 5gal and one 6 Gal carboys. I just did some bottling so I have 4 empty 5 Gal that I can read the bottoms on. 1 is stamped “made in Italy” and 3 say nothing.

What is odd is that the Italian one is much lighter in weight than the 3 unmarked ones. The unmarked one came with yellow stickers that highly recommend moving them only with a harness.

I have no plans to ever stack them. When I carry them any distance full, I use a milk carton. I could live with losing 5 gallons and a carboy, but my wine room is upstairs in a converted bedroom and the thought of 5 gallons of wine on that cheaply carpeted floor is frightening.


----------



## bstnh1 (Sep 3, 2020)

And this is why I use only PET carboys.


----------



## Johnd (Sep 3, 2020)

crushday said:


> Indeed, Stickman. And, never again will I purchase them. But to be fair, four broken ones were of my doing from when I was stacking carboys.



Sounds like you bought inferior quality carboys, and abused some of the good ones that you had. That’s a reason to purchase only quality glass, and use it as intended, not abandon the whole farm.
Kinda like adding a Toyotas to your fleet of Mercedes, putting diesel in the Toyotas instead of gas, driving them off road, and having major service issues. Solution? Easy, just buy a new fleet of Kia‘s. To each his own.

If you really do abandon the glass carboy for plastic (oh, the horror, I can scarcely type the words), just remember that they do allow some measure of O2 exchange. Probably not a lot, but more than you’re accustomed to. Carry on.


----------



## crushday (Sep 3, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Sounds like you bought inferior quality carboys, and abused some of the good ones that you had. That’s a reason to purchase only quality glass, and use it as intended, not abandon the whole farm.
> Kinda like adding a Toyotas to your fleet of Mercedes, putting diesel in the Toyotas instead of gas, driving them off road, and having major service issues. Solution? Easy, just buy a new fleet of Kia‘s. To each his own.
> 
> If you really do abandon the glass carboy for plastic (oh, the horror, I can scarcely type the words), just remember that they do allow some measure of O2 exchange. Probably not a lot, but more than you’re accustomed to. Carry on.


John, your analogies and conclusions are very persuasive. Not to mention fun to read!


----------



## Scooter68 (Sep 3, 2020)

I've broken one carboy, apparently they don't bounce off concrete floors well, let me correct that. It bounced once and when it hit the second time it spread itself out over the floor. (Slightly soapy hands will do that.) Learned my lesson. Keep my body between the sink and the carboy when washing, and rinsing them Fiberglass utility sink isn't going to break a carboy very quickly.

BIGGER problem to me is the size variation. up to 18 oz difference in 3 gallon carboy volume. Measured most of them but I have to repeat that since the markings washed off. I would imagine that as long as you don't stress them by using those Neck lift handles, dropping, or stacking them, even the China made carboys should hold up. As for a stacking - If I needed to do that I'd start with a wooden pallet and use 2x4s screwed in as supports

[QUOTE="Johnd, post: 768351, member: 33054" If you really do abandon the glass carboy for plastic (oh, the horror, I can scarcely type the words), just remember that they do allow some measure of O2 exchange. Probably not a lot, but more than you’re accustomed to. Carry on.
[/QUOTE]

I've just seen too much plastic get scratched and stained by juices. I've got an Omega juicer and the juice collection container is now a slightly golden color from Apple Juice. I've washed it, soaked it etc. Other than resorting to bleach, I think that stain is there to stay. 
IF you go with PET, I'd suggest keeping one aside, unused for a year and then comparing it to the ones you do use to see if you pick up juice colors. IF you are picking up the color of the juice at all, that means other things can stick to it too. I'll stay with glass, even if it's from China, as long as it doesn't have lead or other 'toxic's' contents, a glass container cared for properly will last and clean up nicely


----------



## shoebiedoo (Sep 3, 2020)

I've used silicone bungs on my PET carboys. They work great


----------



## stickman (Sep 3, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> I would imagine that as long as you don't stress them by using those Neck lift handles, dropping, or stacking them, even the China made carboys should hold up. As for a stacking



I personally would still be very cautious about using these carboys, @crushday just indicated that 3 of the 6 failed, and if I'm understanding correctly, they were only a few months old and had not been stacked or abused.

I realize that they can always improve the production process and start shipping out good quality carboys, but there will always be questions in my mind; we'll see what happens over time.


----------



## Johnd (Sep 3, 2020)

I've got over 30 carboys, mostly 6's, a few 3's, all Italian, and have had them for 6+ years of pretty rigorous use. I'm biting my tongue for saying this, but I've never had a single carboy break or crack or otherwise fail. I'm relatively careful with them, and they've never been stacked in a fashion where they bear any weight other than their own, and always try to keep something underneath them to buffer them from hard surfaces. For me, it's a product that's been well worth the investment.


----------



## Ajmassa (Sep 3, 2020)

trying to picture this but im at a loss. Maybe I’m missing a key variable or something idk

But how would someone even go about stacking carboys?

*edit
Nevermind lol. Brainfart. Clearly you mean storing EMPTY carboys. Duh


----------



## mainshipfred (Sep 3, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> trying to picture this but im at a loss. Maybe I’m missing a key variable or something idk
> 
> But how would someone even go about stacking carboys?
> 
> ...



Actually AJ I don't think they were empty. I think I recall seeing the pics.


----------



## mainshipfred (Sep 3, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> I've broken one carboy, apparently they don't bounce off concrete floors well, let me correct that. It bounced once and when it hit the second time it spread itself out over the floor. (Slightly soapy hands will do that.) Learned my lesson. Keep my body between the sink and the carboy when washing, and rinsing them Fiberglass utility sink isn't going to break a carboy very quickly.
> 
> BIGGER problem to me is the size variation. up to 18 oz difference in 3 gallon carboy volume. Measured most of them but I have to repeat that since the markings washed off. I would imagine that as long as you don't stress them by using those Neck lift handles, dropping, or stacking them, even the China made carboys should hold up. As for a stacking - If I needed to do that I'd start with a wooden pallet and use 2x4s screwed in as supports
> 
> [QUOTE="Johnd, post: 768351, member: 33054" If you really do abandon the glass carboy for plastic (oh, the horror, I can scarcely type the words), just remember that they do allow some measure of O2 exchange. Probably not a lot, but more than you’re accustomed to. Carry on.



I've just seen too much plastic get scratched and stained by juices. I've got an Omega juicer and the juice collection container is now a slightly golden color from Apple Juice. I've washed it, soaked it etc. Other than resorting to bleach, I think that stain is there to stay. 
IF you go with PET, I'd suggest keeping one aside, unused for a year and then comparing it to the ones you do use to see if you pick up juice colors. IF you are picking up the color of the juice at all, that means other things can stick to it too. I'll stay with glass, even if it's from China, as long as it doesn't have lead or other 'toxic's' contents, a glass container cared for properly will last and clean up nicely
[/QUOTE]

Scooter, after you mark the carboy, I assume with a sharpie, put a piece of strapping tape over it. I have a one gallon graduated jug I did over 2 years ago.


----------



## Ajmassa (Sep 3, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Actually AJ I don't think they were empty. I think I recall seeing the pics.



on their sides or upright?
Not meaning to derail thread here. Just extremely curious how this issue of compromising the glass even came to be. 
I’ve never had any vessel fail either. Multiple styles used- smooth sided Italian carboy, the newer standard reinforced type, thin demijohns, thicker demi etc

Btw- package tape over the sharpie—-genius!


----------



## cmason1957 (Sep 3, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> on their sides or upright?
> Not meaning to derail thread here. Just extremely curious how this issue of compromising the glass even came to be.
> I’ve never had any vessel fail either. Multiple styles used- smooth sided Italian carboy, the newer standard reinforced type, thin demijohns, thicker demi etc
> 
> Btw- package tape over the sharpie—-genius!


Here's a picture of how they were stacked and as I recall several of us warned this wasn't a great idea.






Structural integrity of carboys


I'm wondering if anyone out there knows the math behind the structural integrity of a carboy. As you can tell from the pics, I have placed a piece of 3/4" plywood between sets of four carboys and stacked them. Given that each filled 6gal carboy weights approximately 50#, I'm putting 200# on...




www.winemakingtalk.com


----------



## shoebiedoo (Sep 3, 2020)

This was a thread on Breathable bungs right????


----------



## mainshipfred (Sep 3, 2020)

Breathable bungs, the reason for using them and broken carboys.


----------



## Scooter68 (Sep 3, 2020)

Scooter, after you mark the carboy, I assume with a sharpie, put a piece of strapping tape over it. I have a one gallon graduated jug I did over 2 years ago.
[/QUOTE]

Ya had to say that didn't you. 

I did that on one but thought some other labels would stay on. Learned my lesson while they are mostly empty I need to re-check the volumes. Sharpie mark near the neck and on the bottom and apply clear shipping tape. I've got some that is supposed to be "Storage Box Tape" with longer lasting adhesive. Will be sure to use that next time I measure and mark.


----------



## franc1969 (Sep 3, 2020)

I have a huge fear of broken glass anywhere near my hands. And I don't relish the idea of cleaning the basement of broken glass, or 6 gallons of wine floating that glass around. So now that I am transitioning from PET to glass, I am contemplating putting all carboys into 10 gallon plastic trash cans, instead of milk crates. 
Was that one breathable bung the kind that fits -over- a carboy neck? I have switched to the rubber caps that are like this, with a hole for airlock. Might consider switching then.


----------



## David Violante (Sep 4, 2020)

franc1969 said:


> I have a huge fear of broken glass anywhere near my hands. And I don't relish the idea of cleaning the basement of broken glass, or 6 gallons of wine floating that glass around. So now that I am transitioning from PET to glass, I am contemplating putting all carboys into 10 gallon plastic trash cans, instead of milk crates.
> Was that one breathable bung the kind that fits -over- a carboy neck? I have switched to the rubber caps that are like this, with a hole for airlock. Might consider switching then.



I seem to remember somewhere in the forums a member placing their carboys in plastic garden totes while bulk aging. Not to carry, but for extra insurance in case one broke.

I also just ordered some breathable carboy bungs...


----------



## KCCam (Sep 4, 2020)

David Violante said:


> I seem to remember somewhere in the forums a member placing their carboys in plastic garden totes while bulk aging. Not to carry, but for extra insurance in case one broke.
> 
> I also just ordered some breathable carboy bungs...


@Val-the-Brew-Gal uses clothes baskets from Target. They’re just the right size, round, and best of all, they’re white inside, so you can more easily see how clear the wine is.


----------



## crushday (Sep 4, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> trying to picture this but im at a loss. Maybe I’m missing a key variable or something idk
> 
> But how would someone even go about stacking carboys?



Aj, as Fred remembers, the carboys were full. I store my carboys in milk crates (empty and full). Putting four together in a square produces a foot print slightly less than 23 inches. I then put a piece of 3/4” plywood on top of those to provide a platform for the next level of full carboys. The plywood was resting on the carboy handles rather than the stoppers. This was a best utilization of space strategy that ended with a disastrous outcome. 

It turns out that carboys don’t have the compression strength I hypothesized. Lesson learned.


----------



## ThunderFred (Sep 4, 2020)

Thanks for sharing that experience crushday, good for lots of us not to have to learn that one the hard way. Appreciate your transparency in helping others.


----------



## Ajmassa (Sep 4, 2020)

crushday said:


> Aj, as Fred remembers, the carboys were full. I store my carboys in milk crates (empty and full). Putting four together in a square produces a foot print slightly less than 23 inches. I then put a piece of 3/4” plywood on top of those to provide a platform for the next level of full carboys. The plywood was resting on the carboy handles rather than the stoppers. This was a best utilization of space strategy that ended with a disastrous outcome.
> 
> It turns out that carboys don’t have the compression strength I hypothesized. Lesson learned.


Yep. I read your entire thread last night that detailed it. Missed it originally. 2019 was chaotic year for me. I didn’t make any wine or frequent WMT very much. 

tough _break_ with the carboys. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again——-

I think 90% of my winemaking knowledge comes from screwing something up then researching and troubleshooting to fix it. Can read words on a screen till the cows come home. But often things don’t get truly committed to memory til u find yourself fixing a screwup.
The school of hard knocks does have its benefits.


----------



## Scooter68 (Sep 4, 2020)

Another option is to get some of the long low height storage bins designed to go under beds. they can easily hold 2 5/6 gallon carboys and unless both broke the bin could easily contain the spill from one. 
Breakage of a carboy without a significant amount of pressure would be extremely rare. It would to already have some sort of crack or defect and would still likely require some degree of pressure beyond what a non-fermenting wine would produce. IF that is actually occurring the carboy was seriously flawed or the wine was still fermenting and the bung was secured TOO well. 
Just seems improbable that an aging wine would produce any significant pressure. without some outside influence.


----------



## stickman (Sep 4, 2020)

The main problem is the carboy manufacturing process, many of the issues are not visible to the eye. Once the carboy is formed it has to be cooled in a controlled way, usually by passing it through an annealing oven. Any shortcuts in this process will end up causing internal stress and lead to problems like what people have been experiencing, including carboys failing unexpectedly without warning.


----------



## DizzyIzzy (Sep 4, 2020)

crushday said:


> I got fed up a few weeks ago. Since I started my winemaking career, I've lost gallons of wine using glass carboys. To date, I've had seven glass carboys, full of wine, break for various reasons. None of which I was around to witness - only left to clean up the mess. For you who have experienced this same dilemma, you'll agree it's frustrating, tiresome and sad.
> 
> Recently I purchased some plastic carboys for long term aging. My regular bungs don't fit the necks of the PET carboys. The ones I could find that fit the new carboys are "breathable". I'm not sure I trust breathable...
> 
> ...


I use the silicone bungs all the time so that I don't have to be concrned about watching the level of sanitizer in the airlock. I think they are wonderful! Re: the breakage of the glass carboys.......................that is awful!! Any idea how? *One, I could understand: seven, is a mystery. * I have only purchased the thick Italian glass carboys and can't imagine them breaking spontaneously. Feel sorry for you Crush.............................Dizzy


----------



## DizzyIzzy (Sep 4, 2020)

crushday said:


> Ok, my fears around the bungs have subsided. Since I did have seven broken glass carboys, I agree with @Johnd - I WAS doing something wrong. Remember about a year ago I was asking about the tensile and compression strength of carboys because I was stacking them? You might remember too how many alarms went off on the forum when I posted pictures...
> 
> I think staking did enough structural damage that eventually the lower tier, four carboys, cracked and emptied their contents. A positive outcome discovery is that wine beautifully stains concrete a dull purple hue. Really nice for those who like dull purple hues on their concrete floor...lol. BTW - I stopped stacking after this fateful event.
> 
> ...


Crush, why is it that the lessons we learn in life are so hard-earned?.............................................Dizzy


----------



## crushday (Sep 4, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> Re: the breakage of the glass carboys - that is awful!! Any idea how? *One, I could understand: seven, is a mystery. * Feel sorry for you Crush, Dizzy


To be fair, four of them were my fault for not having a greater appreciation for physics. I knew what I was doing by stacking the carboys was a gamble. No one’s fault but my own. The other three happened just about six weeks ago with a bad batch of purchased carboys. Of the six I recently purchased, three cracked and spilled the contents. Of the three remaining, two had cracks - I discovered after I transferred to other carboys. The other thing to consider is my opportunity score is rather high. I have 56 carboys full and aging right now. Why, you entertain? In short, to give away while enjoying the process of becoming a decent winemaker.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 4, 2020)

56 carboys!!!??? You, sir, need some variable capacity stainless steel tanks.


----------



## crushday (Sep 4, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> 56 carboys!!!??? You, sir, need some variable capacity stainless steel tanks.


Jim, it’s been an interesting turn of events. My annual barrel rotation will hold 27 carboys. Because I always want to have enough aged over a year before I transfer to a barrel, I have two years worth aging. But, my wine journey has led me away from doing kits and now only frozen must and fresh grapes. Beginning with my current ferment, I’m transitioning to large capacity Speidel tanks, doing less smaller batches and making better wine, hopefully.


----------



## Ajmassa (Sep 4, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> 56 carboys!!!??? You, sir, need some variable capacity stainless steel tanks.


56 sounds like a lot. But crushday just thinking......”should be 63 goddammit!” 

If/when he gets arrested definitely will be the illegal toilet bowl hooch guy on the cell block


----------

