# Unimpressed with top line kits?



## baron4406 (May 23, 2019)

Since our local wineries are pumping out some great wines, I really made an effort last year to see how I could ratchet up my grape wine quality. So I went hog wild on some top of line kits, mainly WE-Eclipse and RJS kits. The WE Malbec and RJS Old Vine Zin are 15 months old so I decanted one of each and had a little tasting session. I was excited because Old Vine Zin is my favorite varietal. Well to say I was disappointed would be an understatement and I wasn't alone. No bad flavors but both tasted......like a juice bucket. No real structure, no nose.....nothing. I also have an Amarone, Nebbiolo, and a Stag's Leap Merlot. The Merlot is still in a carboy and it really has no flavor either. I made them all with better yeast (RC212 and BM 4X4) and skipped the sorbate. Also did 8 week EM's on all the kits. I store them in my cellar, under the stairs where its dark and 63-65 degrees year round.
Am I expecting too much? Each of these kits was $150 to $180. I really thought they would at least have a bit of flavor and structure. I'm probably uncorking all 4 cases and turning them into brandy to salvage it. Tonight I'm gonna try the Amarone and Nebbiolo and hoping for the best.


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## FunkedOut (May 23, 2019)

That’s disheartening. I just started an RJS Malbec with RC212 and was hoping for glory. 
Hopefully, you have a better pallet than me, and I will find my wine delicious. 

Not sure how to help. Maybe try blending a couple bottles in the glass?
You could leave some around for making sangria if that’s your thing. 

Curious, which Zin kit did you make? The cru international or the en primeur?


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## baron4406 (May 23, 2019)

It was an RJS En Primeur kit. It wasn't just me I had two friends who were both winemakers testing them too. Sorry I just expected more. Both of them used me as a tester to see if they wanted to make these kits too. Guys then broke into my prized 2017 Syrah (all grape-central valley). The kits do have excellent mouth feel tho just zero taste like you usually get with the juice buckets.


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## LouisCKpasteur (May 23, 2019)

The only kit I've done that you've named is the Nebbiolo. Can you report back on that when you taste it? A professional winemaker tasted it at nine weeks and gave it a thumbs up. He may have been just being nice. I had a few ounces at 9 months, was satisfied with the taste, but not the nose. I've noticed on some of the premium kits that I have a pretty long decanting period to get any kind of nose. The Eclipse Nocturne (GSM plus Cinsault) kit I started in July '17 and entered in this year's Winemaker Magazine Int'l Contest won a bronze, even though I thought I wasting my time because the nose just wasn't impressive. Hopefully get my notes on that soon.


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## ibglowin (May 23, 2019)

A small barrel will help with some micro oxidation and concentration. I made kits for about 2 years and then went in on fresh grapes only after that except for white wines. You can get a pretty good white wine from a high end kit. I wouldn't dump them, just let them keep aging. High end kits need 2 years to come around usually.


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## baron4406 (May 23, 2019)

I've heard people say that but if its tasteless now how is it going to improve? I have the space and if it needs to sit another 6 months I can let it do it.


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## ibglowin (May 23, 2019)

Time is your friend in this hobby/obsession. The barrel can do some amazing things to open up a wine with the micro oxidation that goes on. You could also go back and add some tannin to it. It can be added right into the bottle if you have a micro balance to accurately weigh out the right amount. You just need a fresh cork to recork with. I learned early on kits they were lacking much tannin and that was my first addition used for all reds.



baron4406 said:


> I've heard people say that but if its tasteless now how is it going to improve? I have the space and if it needs to sit another 6 months I can let it do it.


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## sour_grapes (May 23, 2019)

I opened a WE Stag's Leap Merlot the other day (that had tannins added as the tweak), and it was the equal of a ~$15 commercial wine. I was happy. My WE Nebbiolo and CC Amarone were in the same league. Lots (most?) of my others are not as good as that.


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## jgmann67 (May 23, 2019)

I tweak all my kits anymore - EM’s, tannins, yeast swaps, no clarifiers or sorbate, added French and Hungarian oak... for my taste, the kits are much better with my tweakery. And, yes, I’d put them on par with decent commercial wines ($15-20 bottles). But someone on here rated the resulting wine quality in a good-better-best as kits-buckets-grapes. I agree. 

I’ll also say that your wines are still very young at 15 months. They will continue to improve for another couple years. I’d say leave them alone and taste again every three months. 

My Eclipse Nebbiolo kit, btw, is 2 years old right now and, while it’s still got a ways to go until it hits its peak, is very good. I get all the smokey tar, floral and tannin that you get with a decent Barolo. Imagine what it will be like at 3 or 4 years.


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## mainshipfred (May 23, 2019)

I realize it's more work, there are greater risks and everyone doesn't have a source, but 3 lugs of a quality red grape is about the same cost as a quality kit. While whites are another story a juice bucket at $50 - $60 is is far less expensive than a white kit. I stopped making kits after my 4th batch and now much happier with the results. The nice thing about kits is you can make them 12 months out of the year rather than twice a year.


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## Chuck E (May 23, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> Time is your friend in this hobby/obsession. The barrel can do some amazing things to open up a wine with the micro oxidation that goes on. You could also go back and add some tannin to it. It can be added right into the bottle if you have a micro balance to accurately weigh out the right amount. You just need a fresh cork to recork with. I learned early on kits they were lacking much tannin and that was my first addition used for all reds.



What is your "normal" tannin addition on reds?


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## joeswine (May 23, 2019)

Here is my take on itwine kits need to be worked, juice needs to be worked, unless the base has a good structure they need tweaking and time weather you use oak, barrels, tannins, berries etc,. You need to understand the wines profile from that point you can make a cheap kit decent, a thin but key better and understand that all the time in the world in a cask bottle or carboy will not improve the base straight up.
You need to read up on the wines taste profile then design the structure to meet your taste. The results will become more of what you expect.
Just my thoughts and always remember to think outside the box. Most good winemakers do.


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## ibglowin (May 23, 2019)

I have always just followed the recommended dosage on the side of the bottle.



Chuck E said:


> What is your "normal" tannin addition on reds?


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## cmason1957 (May 23, 2019)

I did wonder if fairly young wines are being compared to two or three year old wines. The older wines will always be better. Last night, my wife and I were drinking wine we made in 2016 from a kit. It might not have quite the nose that the commercial wines have, but the body, flavor will stand up to any $15-25 bottle of wine. My cost, under $5,I'll take that any day.


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## crushday (May 24, 2019)

baron4406 - don't dump that wine! Stop and think about it. You're comparing your wine that is maybe 18 months old since you pitched the yeast against commercial wine that was probably in an oak barrel 18-24 months. You have to do an apple to apple comparison before you get too discouraged. Wine kits produce good wine and they can be great if you add time (you're already doing this) and follow the aging time and medium schedule of your favorite commercial winery. In short, you need barrels and time...


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## baron4406 (May 24, 2019)

Nooooooooooo I don't EVER "dump" wine. I just run it thru my still and make brandy. Its why I'm quick to give up on wine because alot of times I really need the bottles. For example now I have 6.5 Gallons of Petite Syrah to bottle, plus my Stag's Leap Merlot kit. Plus 2 cheap kits I made. UGH

Ok I cracked a bottle of Amarone last night, that was actually decent even though its just over a year old. It had a completely different flavor profile and was actually quite enjoyable.

I have barrels, I just don't have a 6 gallon barrel for kits. This was just an experiment to see if I could have a reliable, steady supply of quality wine since grapes vary in quality so much (the ones home winemakers get at least). It looks like even the expensive kits vary greatly in quality which is totally understandable. My next plan is to drive up to New York and pick my own this fall. They also sell juice but they also sell the skins with the juice. Still I'm strictly grapes from now on.

What I look for in a "young" wine is potential. However if the wine has zero flavor and zero nose at 1 year old, its not suddenly going to explode with flavor after another year. The wines that improve with time start with flavors that need to round out and mature. I recently drank my last bottle of 2015 Barolo, one of my last juice wines. It tasted like nothing 3 years ago and aging it for 3 years did nothing since there was no flavor to start with.


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## jsbeckton (May 24, 2019)

I have also been largely disappointed with premium kits. The tweaks have helped but still there are only a few that I think are really good. That’s why I started an all grape batch this spring. It’s a lot more work than a kit, but it’s more fun as well. I plan still make a few kits that I have liked but if the grape batches turn out really well I can see myself just giving up on kits altogether.


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## kuziwk (May 24, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> Since our local wineries are pumping out some great wines, I really made an effort last year to see how I could ratchet up my grape wine quality. So I went hog wild on some top of line kits, mainly WE-Eclipse and RJS kits. The WE Malbec and RJS Old Vine Zin are 15 months old so I decanted one of each and had a little tasting session. I was excited because Old Vine Zin is my favorite varietal. Well to say I was disappointed would be an understatement and I wasn't alone. No bad flavors but both tasted......like a juice bucket. No real structure, no nose.....nothing. I also have an Amarone, Nebbiolo, and a Stag's Leap Merlot. The Merlot is still in a carboy and it really has no flavor either. I made them all with better yeast (RC212 and BM 4X4) and skipped the sorbate. Also did 8 week EM's on all the kits. I store them in my cellar, under the stairs where its dark and 63-65 degrees year round.
> Am I expecting too much? Each of these kits was $150 to $180. I really thought they would at least have a bit of flavor and structure. I'm probably uncorking all 4 cases and turning them into brandy to salvage it. Tonight I'm gonna try the Amarone and Nebbiolo and hoping for the best.



The cellar Craft showcase kits are stellar, I made a carmenere of which I have about 9 bottles left. I have bought several bottles when I was in Mexico, one was 330 pesos and the one I made was much better. The thing you have to keep in mind I think is that not everyone likes some of the more tannic grapes. The kit manufacturers are very conservative on their tannins, I've been adding some tannin cellaring complex to even my high end kits and it makes a huge difference. I'm also looking into getting an oak barrel down the road, however I feel the tannin complex from Scott tan is likely the missing link to a more commerical red. You should also not expect a $60 bottle from these kits. I think at most you are in the $35 range. If you think about it, the best grapes wineries keep for themselves and don't sell them. Why would they give out their secrets?


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## baron4406 (May 25, 2019)

Thanks for your post! I still have my Stag's Leap Merlot in a carboy and do have some Tannin Riche Extra laying around but I'm not sure how good that stuff is.


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## jgmann67 (May 25, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> Thanks for your post! I still have my Stag's Leap Merlot in a carboy and do have some Tannin Riche Extra laying around but I'm not sure how good that stuff is.



If I have TRE in my stocks, I will hit a hearty red with it about 3-6 months before bottling. Seems to smooth the wine out a bit.


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## bstnh1 (May 25, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> Since our local wineries are pumping out some great wines, I really made an effort last year to see how I could ratchet up my grape wine quality. So I went hog wild on some top of line kits, mainly WE-Eclipse and RJS kits. The WE Malbec and RJS Old Vine Zin are 15 months old so I decanted one of each and had a little tasting session. I was excited because Old Vine Zin is my favorite varietal. Well to say I was disappointed would be an understatement and I wasn't alone. No bad flavors but both tasted......like a juice bucket. No real structure, no nose.....nothing. I also have an Amarone, Nebbiolo, and a Stag's Leap Merlot. The Merlot is still in a carboy and it really has no flavor either. I made them all with better yeast (RC212 and BM 4X4) and skipped the sorbate. Also did 8 week EM's on all the kits. I store them in my cellar, under the stairs where its dark and 63-65 degrees year round.
> Am I expecting too much? Each of these kits was $150 to $180. I really thought they would at least have a bit of flavor and structure. I'm probably uncorking all 4 cases and turning them into brandy to salvage it. Tonight I'm gonna try the Amarone and Nebbiolo and hoping for the best.


Any of the expensive red kits (and some not so expensive) I've made don't improve much during the first couple of years. I usually wait 4 years before judging them. At 5 years, they're really good. You really shouldn't be concerned about the ones you mentioned after only 15 months.


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## baron4406 (May 25, 2019)

Anyone ever make the Nebbiolo kit from WE Eclipse? This one is a little over a year old, it has a completely different flavor, I check my notes from when I bottled it. Very earthy and almost as complex as the Amarone but a completely different taste profile. So I'm going to let all these bottles sit until next summer tho the Amarone is a hit and i may have to hide it lol. I think I'm just a little picky, I've made so many wines over the years plus our local wineries are really pumping out some fantastic wines so maybe I've expected too much. Example the wine I was least impressed with, the Malbec sat for two days (good and decanted) and its actually darn good now. Who knows? I have alot of fruit wines to keep the greedy visitors happy lol.


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## jgmann67 (May 25, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> Anyone ever make the Nebbiolo kit from WE Eclipse? This one is a little over a year old, it has a completely different flavor, I check my notes from when I bottled it. Very earthy and almost as complex as the Amarone but a completely different taste profile. So I'm going to let all these bottles sit until next summer tho the Amarone is a hit and i may have to hide it lol. I think I'm just a little picky, I've made so many wines over the years plus our local wineries are really pumping out some fantastic wines so maybe I've expected too much. Example the wine I was least impressed with, the Malbec sat for two days (good and decanted) and its actually darn good now. Who knows? I have alot of fruit wines to keep the greedy visitors happy lol.



Yes. I did mine as an EM, with tannin additions on the front and back end. When it was young, the tannins were overpowering and it had too many sharp edges to the flavor. 

It’s two years old and has a nicely integrated tar and floral taste. I also used some medium plus oak cubes that added a nice coffee and smoke underpinning. 

It’s good now. In another year, it will be even better. I think at 4 years, it will be stellar.


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## sour_grapes (May 25, 2019)

I actually chose not to add tannins, because, as per my notes, "Kit comes with 60g oak dust and 90g (!) oak cubes." The result was very nice. Perhaps would have been better with some added tannins, but this is one of my pretty-darn-good outcomes.


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## szap (May 25, 2019)

A friend of mine won a blind auction wine tasting and tapas at a local fairly exclusive wine business. We brought two bottles of our Eciplse old vine zinfandel and after the tasting we returned to the hosts home and opened the two bottles we had brought. Every person said that our wine was better than anything they had at the tasting. Now I know things like taste preferences are subjective and we did not know much about the reds that were served at the tasting, but subjective or not the Eclipse kit was a hit. The way we look at it is yes they are the more expensive wine kits, but it still works out to $5 to $6 a bottle and for us these kits make wines that for that price are a steal.


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## Bill McNab (May 26, 2019)

I have been making wine from grapes for 40 years. Most of the time I can get premium CA and or Canadian white grapes. Red grapes from CA. Once in a while I blend a kit into my grape wine in order to keep my barrels full.
I have aged expensive kits for several years , however, never reached the same level of satisfaction as grape wine.
My votes will always be 
1. Grapes.
2 juice
3 kits as a last resort.
I read lots of posts talking about tweaking kits , many different ways.
Seems like the quality of a $200 kit should not need multiple tweaks to make it drinkable.
Grapes for me every time even if I have to drive 10 hours each way to get them.
Good luck with the kits that y'all make.
Bill.


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## bstnh1 (May 26, 2019)

Bill McNab said:


> I have been making wine from grapes for 40 years. Most of the time I can get premium CA and or Canadian white grapes. Red grapes from CA. Once in a while I blend a kit into my grape wine in order to keep my barrels full.
> I have aged expensive kits for several years , however, never reached the same level of satisfaction as grape wine.
> My votes will always be
> 1. Grapes.
> ...


I don't think anyone is talking about tweaking a $200 kit to make it "drinkable". Virtually any kit that's made properly is drinkable and most equal or surpass the quality of a $10 or $15 store bought wine. It's also not unusual to have a kit wine top wines made from fresh grapes in competitions.


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## jgmann67 (May 26, 2019)

I tend to agree that fresh, quality grapes will make a better wine than a kit. 

But, understand that wine kits are made for the masses... follow the directions, wait for your wine to mature and you’ll get something that’s universally drinkable... or better... without failure. Much like making wine from fresh grapes, though, knowing what yeast works best for the wine kit you’re making, what oak imparts the flavors you like, what tannins will help round out your wine... those things can make a good kit a much better kit, not for the masses, but personalized for your own tastes.


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## kuziwk (May 26, 2019)

bstnh1 said:


> I don't think anyone is talking about tweaking a $200 kit to make it "drinkable". Virtually any kit that's made properly is drinkable and most equal or surpass the quality of a $10 or $15 store bought wine. It's also not unusual to have a kit wine top wines made from fresh grapes in competitions.




Honestly I don't think commerical wine is any better, just different and in alot of cases kits can be better. I have not made a wine kit to date that I hated, just some were better than others or made with higher quality grales. I do firmly believe that the quality of the grapes in a kit can only go so far, the best wineries hold on to their best grapes and keep their family secrets. Im talking about the $50 bottles of wine which I very rarely purchased anyways. I just opened up two bottles of commerical white yesterday ..the sav Blanc was extremely tart and I didn't care for it. The one from Portugal was disgusting and tasted like puke, I had to dump it when everyone was not watching. At Any rate..i think a portion of the difference is tannins and aging in a barrel....both of which can be done in a kit. For the money I'm pretty happy with the kits, they make much better wines than a $10-$15 bottle in Canada. My usual wine was on average $10-$15 a bottle so I'm drinking better wine now with kits. On occasion I would splurge $60 on a bottle of Amarone or something but generally not very often.


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## joeswine (May 26, 2019)

It's all subjective to one's own taste preference.


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## bstnh1 (May 26, 2019)

joeswine said:


> It's all subjective to one's own taste preference.


Yep! That's the bottom line. If everyone liked the same thing there would be one red and one white and we'd all walk around happy as clams!


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## kuziwk (May 27, 2019)

bstnh1 said:


> Yep! That's the bottom line. If everyone liked the same thing there would be one red and one white and we'd all walk around happy as clams!



Not sure of it's just me but I feel when I aerate commercial wines, they taste much different and I find they lose their bite and a bit of structure. When I aerate my top kits it seems to help with structure...am I crazy? Either way yes it's subjective, however I think the biggest thing alot of people should recognize is that if they want a wine that tastes like commercial wine than they should make it as such which involves aging in a barrel.


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## szap (May 28, 2019)

My wife's favorite kit to date is the Eclipse old vine zinfandel and I have made it 4 or 5 times. Before wine kits, she was a $10 to $12 a bottle wine drinker and she feels the kit is far better than the wine we were drinking. What really opened our eyes was when after drinking nothing but the kit wine for a while going back to a bottle of the commercial wine. What a huge difference! Now granted none of our friends are expert wine tasters but we have poured the kit wine for a number of them and without exception they all loved it. The high end kits seem expensive but work out to only $5 to $6 a bottle. So even if you only serve it to your less savvy friends, it is still a bargain.


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## bkisel (May 28, 2019)

I believe the best wine I've tasted has been from a kit. Member @ceeaton gave me a bottle of Forza which I'm guessing was made from the WE Eclipse kit.


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## baron4406 (May 28, 2019)

Bill McNab said:


> My votes will always be
> 1. Grapes.
> 2 juice
> 3 kits as a last resort.
> ...



My vote would be:
1. Grapes
2. High end Kits
3. Cheap kits with tweaks
4. Cheap kits
1000000000000000. Juice buckets

I've made about 30-40 juice buckets and every one except one has been tasteless, watered down garbage (talking red wines here). The one that wasn't was a bucket from Walkers in an oddball varietal (Noriet) and it had 3 lugs of premium Cabernet grapes in it. This has been verified by many get togethers from other wine makers. White wine is a different story tho juice buckets are fine for them.


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## joeswine (May 28, 2019)

It's all about structure you either have a base with it or you have to construct it yourself , but that's wine making isn't it.
Think outside the box


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## ratflinger (May 28, 2019)

3 years folks, My Mosti All Juice kits are becoming good at 2 years, but they really start to shine at 3. 18 months, no way.


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## kuziwk (May 29, 2019)

szap said:


> My wife's favorite kit to date is the Eclipse old vine zinfandel and I have made it 4 or 5 times. Before wine kits, she was a $10 to $12 a bottle wine drinker and she feels the kit is far better than the wine we were drinking. What really opened our eyes was when after drinking nothing but the kit wine for a while going back to a bottle of the commercial wine. What a huge difference! Now granted none of our friends are expert wine tasters but we have poured the kit wine for a number of them and without exception they all loved it. The high end kits seem expensive but work out to only $5 to $6 a bottle. So even if you only serve it to your less savvy friends, it is still a bargain.



Yup I agree with this, in additional while I wouldn't call my parents wine snobs...although most would they mostly drink $50-60 bottles typically regularily. They are trying to compare my high end kits with these, however my kits come up short. Obviously the Kits should, they only cost $6 a bottle to make ...and with what I would peg $30 a bottle on average


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## ceeaton (May 29, 2019)

bkisel said:


> I believe the best wine I've tasted has been from a kit. Member @ceeaton gave me a bottle of Forza which I'm guessing was made from the WE Eclipse kit.


It was the special kit they first released that is now offered as an Eclipse kit. I'm guessing the Eclipse version is just a different box and the same kit I made.


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## jgmann67 (May 29, 2019)

ceeaton said:


> It was the special kit they first released that is now offered as an Eclipse kit. I'm guessing the Eclipse version is just a different box and the same kit I made.



Close. From what folks are saying it’s similar, but lower abv (like 14% instead of the 16% in the limited).


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## kuziwk (Jun 3, 2019)

I just brought a bottle of Australian Cab Sav by vineco to a family dinner....it's the traditional vintage kit so their mid tier kit without skins. I used additional American oak cubes and additional tannin as I do with all my wine now...even with the kits with skins. When I served the wine, my dad wasn't paying attention and he just grabbed the first bottle which happend to be my wine bottle. Typically He will grab the commercial bottle over my wine as in his mind he believes if you pay alot for a bottle it should be good and it's scalable to what you spens. At any rate he said "hey that malbac is pretty good" (I had the old wine label on) and he liked it. Once I said that was the one I made, he said "well not bad for fruit juice I mean". He likes to joke about the wine I make.... In either case point is these kits make some decent bottles, my parents are experienced wine drinkers that drink some expensive stuff and even they like it and obviously didn't even know it was homemade. I think when we make our wines we are very critical, or perhaps have it engrained in our minds how the wine tasted when fermenting or very young. I think we need to appreciate these kits for what they are and the fact that we are making wines from around the world at very cheap prices.


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## joeswine (Jun 4, 2019)

KK your correct, a decent bottle of wine at a decent price, more than that it's yours ,you put time and work in to the process.
Keep thinking outside the box.


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## jsbeckton (Jun 4, 2019)

Someone might have already mentioned this but it might be worth looking at aerating. Just yesterday I received a $15 one from Amazon that attaches right to the bottle and tried a side by side on a 2016 WE old vine Zinfandel. I was pleasantly surprised what a difference it made and am eager to try it on so others I have found kind of meh.


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## tjgaul (Jun 4, 2019)

I'll give some more Kudos to ceeaton. His Brunello (16L w/skins) inspired me to make the same kit. I just racked it at 11 months old and it's pretty darn good already. I've made the Eclipse Stag's Leap Merlot and Lodi OV Zin and both came out great. Yes, I tweaked them with extra oak and tannin complex & riche extra, but they had plenty of flavor on their own. The Merlot is 2 years old and the Zin is 18 months. Can't wait to see how these guys taste this time next year. Already re-ordered the Merlot to get the next batch going so it will have plenty of time to age properly. This time I plan to do an extended maceration and substitute BM4x4 for the standard EC-1118.

Personally, I find the upper end kits to be worth the money if you have the patience to wait them out. I love being able to tweak the flavor to my personal taste. If a red kit doesn't seem to be living up to the standard then it gets the full treatment . . . homemade raspberry F-Pac, dark chocolate, tannins and oak. That'll put some flavor in it!


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## MiBor (Jun 5, 2019)

tjgaul said:


> If a red kit doesn't seem to be living up to the standard then it gets the full treatment . . . homemade raspberry F-Pac, dark chocolate, tannins and oak. That'll put some flavor in it!



Could you please elaborate on how you enhnce the flavor of a so-so wine? What additives and about how much do you add?


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## joeswine (Jun 5, 2019)

Have you read the thread, Tweaking cheap wine kits on this forum, that will give you a good base to work from.
We're always hear to help


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## kuziwk (Jun 5, 2019)

MiBor said:


> Could you please elaborate on how you enhnce the flavor of a so-so wine? What additives and about how much do you add?


He pretty much explained what he was adding, although I have never added chocolate to wine I have added black pepper to a really cheap cab sav. In my opinion the mid tier and high end kits just need tannin and possibly some oak since not all of them come with cubes. I don't spend less than $90-$100 CAD on a kit anymore though...which I think is considered mid tier. The wines I've served from the traditional vintage (vineco) line is in this neighborhood and they seem to impress alot of people, they are also cheap enough to give away as gifts. I find anything cheaper is just not worth the effort in making. I used to buy those costco Kits but can't stand them anymore and typically just use them for topping up just to get rid of them. There is only so much lipstick you can out on a pig.


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## Lwrightjs (Jun 5, 2019)

tjgaul said:


> I'll give some more Kudos to ceeaton. His Brunello (16L w/skins) inspired me to make the same kit. I just racked it at 11 months old and it's pretty darn good already. I've made the Eclipse Stag's Leap Merlot and Lodi OV Zin and both came out great. Yes, I tweaked them with extra oak and tannin complex & riche extra, but they had plenty of flavor on their own. The Merlot is 2 years old and the Zin is 18 months. Can't wait to see how these guys taste this time next year. Already re-ordered the Merlot to get the next batch going so it will have plenty of time to age properly. This time I plan to do an extended maceration and substitute BM4x4 for the standard EC-1118.
> 
> Personally, I find the upper end kits to be worth the money if you have the patience to wait them out. I love being able to tweak the flavor to my personal taste. If a red kit doesn't seem to be living up to the standard then it gets the full treatment . . . homemade raspberry F-Pac, dark chocolate, tannins and oak. That'll put some flavor in it!


What's the difference between tannin complex and tannin riche?


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## kuziwk (Jun 5, 2019)

Lwrightjs said:


> What's the difference between tannin complex and tannin riche?


Tannin Riche is strictly a finishing tannin (several weeks before bottling), tannin complex is a cellaring/finishing tannin (use during the bulk aging process and up to bottling aswell). Really the main difference and according to the description tannin Riche imparts its own oak flavors and toasted flavors. Tannin complex is more nuetral and is strictly used to add bulk structure and astrigency to the wine. I have never tasted tannin Riche nor have I purchased it as I prefer to get my complexity from oak cubes...also I don't have a source in Canada that sells it in small bags. Tannin Riche is also pretty pricey. Tannin complex is not very bitter at all actually and tastes sort of like astrigent coffee or dark chocolate with a bit of oak. I typically use cheap chesnut tannin while fermenting and cellaring tannin while aging and before bottling.

I'm not against using tannin Riche, however in my opinion and by my logic I would be selective of which wines to use it on otherwise you may find that all your wines taste more of the same (coconut and vanilla)...again according to the description. In that note since I can't imagine using a 2LB bag selectively in a few years I haven't bought it or tried it.


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## tjgaul (Jun 6, 2019)

MiBor said:


> Could you please elaborate on how you enhnce the flavor of a so-so wine? What additives and about how much do you add?



I probably go lighter than most on the tannins. I generally add 1 tsp of generic tannin powder to the primary as sacrificial tannin to be consumed in the fermentation, then I add 1/4 to 1/2 tsp of complex at the first 3 month racking and 1/4 tsp of riche extra at the next racking (per 6 gal carboy). Oak additions are highly variable depending on taste tests along the way, but a typical dose would be 2 oz. cubes and 1/2 spiral at the first racking out of primary and then additional 1 oz. cubes at each racking afterward until I achieve the flavor I'm looking for. Since I'm aging a year or more in the carboy I have multiple opportunities to evaluate the oak and adjust. Normally, the oak is where I want it at 6 months. It's okay if it's a little bold at 6-9 months because it seems to integrate over time. Plus, I like some oak and it's MY WINE!

For the F-pac I saute a couple cups of berry mix (red & black raspberries with some wild grapes - gathered on my property) in a basic red wine with some sugar added, volume depends on the wine - I like reds dry to off-dry, not sweet so typically 1/2 cup of sugar or less (I generally sorbate if using F-pac). I'll run 2 cubes of dark unsweetened bakers chocolate over the grater and sometimes throw in 1/3 - 1/2 of a vanilla bean (pricey). 

I did a real cheap Merlot kit this way and it came out pretty good, especially at less than $2.50 per bottle even with the additions. I also give my homemade "port" wines this treatment. I have a Nebbiolo kit that I split in half at 6 months. I bottled half and aged the rest to 12 months before deciding to give the 2nd half the treatment. Just racked the treated 3 gallons and it's much better than the early bottling. 

A word of warning. IMHO . . . . raspberries in primary give a much different impact on the wine (tartness) than when added later as an F-pac. I don't put raspberries in the primary anymore, except for Dragon Blood.

Hope this helps. Would love to hear alternatives to my method.


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## MiBor (Jun 7, 2019)

Thank you @tjgaul. I've been looking for ways to enhance the taste of my wines and you pointed me in the right direction. I like going easy on the oak because someone in my household gets headaches after drinking my wines, if I use too much of it. Usually 1/2 spiral is all that I can get away with. The F-pac is something new to me, since I never made a fortified wine. I ought to do more reading on the other threads on the subject. I like getting as much info as I can before doing something that can potentially greatly enhance or ruin my wine.


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## kuziwk (Jun 7, 2019)

MiBor said:


> Thank you @tjgaul. I've been looking for ways to enhance the taste of my wines and you pointed me in the right direction. I like going easy on the oak because someone in my household gets headaches after drinking my wines, if I use too much of it. Usually 1/2 spiral is all that I can get away with. The F-pac is something new to me, since I never made a fortified wine. I ought to do more reading on the other threads on the subject. I like getting as much info as I can before doing something that can potentially greatly enhance or ruin my wine.


I believe the headaches are due to tannins and histamine in red wine. There are some on the forum here that don't add additional tannin as they claim it's a source of headaches for them. That said you do get some tannin from oak. Do they get headaches from Chardonnay which is mostly oaked? I don't add nearly as much oak as mentioned above, typically I add about 50g of cubes during aging and 30g - 60g chips during fermentation. I find much more oak than some cubes during aging overpowers the nuances of the grapes...it depends on the grapes of course but I find it's easier to over oak wine than adding too much tannin. I typically use 1 tablespoon in the primary and 1tsp while aging for cheap wines...a little less for the 16l kits with skins. 1-2 tsp in kits with skins while aging only.


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## MiBor (Jun 17, 2019)

I know that the headaches some people get after drinking wine can have a variety of causes (not including the hangover after getting smashed the night before). I used the process of elimination and figured out that the person I'm talking about gets headaches from most commercial wines, both reds and whites, and from homemade reds that I treat with more than about 50g of oak or 1/2 tsp of tannin after fermentation. I'm starting to believe that also sodium sorbate and sodium metabisulfite may have a role in this as well (I use the potassium sorbate and meta). That's why I was looking for a way to enhance flavor, without adding more tannin or oak to my wine. 
I've decided to give a try to the f-pack that Tim described in his post. I also have a weak tasting Pinot Grigio from a kit that I'm going to treat with an f-pack made out of pears and nectarines. I'll report my findings when I reach a conclusion. If anyone has any experience with flavoring dry white wines, please chime in.


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## joeswine (Jun 17, 2019)

Have you read making an fpac on this forum?


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## MiBor (Jun 17, 2019)

Yes, I have. I understand the basics explained in the document uploaded to that thread and I will follow them.
But what I was really looking for was a detailed recipe that somebody tried and had good results with. So far, the only post I found like that was Tim's (#50), in this thread. Everything else I looked at in the other threads is general info and guidance. If you know of other posts like Tim's #50 in any of the other threads, please point me in the right direction.


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## joeswine (Jun 18, 2019)

Do you understand the difference between adding an fpac to the primary as oppose to adding it to the secondary?
I'm trying to understand your question , if you have the basics then all you need to do is try.


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## Kantuckid (Jun 18, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> My vote would be:
> 1. Grapes
> 2. High end Kits
> 3. Cheap kits with tweaks
> ...



While I've not made nearly as much wine as your 30-40 buckets-Why would you make that many to such a poor result? Seriously, maybe just not make wine that way or buy store wine? I really don't understand on a logical note.


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## Bill McNab (Jun 19, 2019)

We get so excited about making wine, so when juice comes available we forget that most juice gets watered down.
Essentially we have poor memories and forget about our dissapointments .

I agree with juice buckets being last, all on their own.
The only success I have had with juice is when we make a trip th o Canada where we used to live, near Niagera Falls.
My grape supplier of 30 years foes not water his juice. Watsons Barrels is his grape farm, check out his web page.
Unfortunately it's not always a trip we can make.
Last year I bought Chilean juice, never again, after 1 year it's mostly tasteless.


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## baron4406 (Jun 23, 2019)

Kantuckid said:


> While I've not made nearly as much wine as your 30-40 buckets-Why would you make that many to such a poor result? Seriously, maybe just not make wine that way or buy store wine? I really don't understand on a logical note.



Thats actually easy. It was red wine so the time from making it to drinking it was 2 years. Well in that time I also made wine a bunch of different ways and I'm here to tell you juice buckets are downright horrible unless you manipulate the heck out of them...........and why bother doing it with a heavy bucket you can only get twice a year? Kits are easier and according to many taste tastes have much better flavor. I agree totally Bill. I'm going north this fall too, gonna try grapes from Wilkerson's.


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## CabSauv (Jul 9, 2019)

Not that my opinion matters here much compared to the great wisdom of these experienced winemakers but I agree that it's the lack of tannin, at least that's what it is for me. Now I've only done 2 beginner level kits and just started my first kit with skins, but I personally found my beginner kits to be severely lacking tannin until I doctored them. I had to double the oak chip pouch that came with the kit in primary fermentation, used cubes for months as it aged in the carboy, and even added tannin powder to get it where I wanted it. So I think the recommendation of oak barrels and tannin is what you're missing out on. The other thing might be the buttery mouth feel, but I think that involves MLF which is out of my league and I'm not even sure if it's really recommended with kits. Maybe you need to go to crushing your own grapes and get away from the kits?


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## ratflinger (Aug 7, 2019)

I've been adding tannin & glycerin to most of my kits

Also, I have 2 special order Mosti kits aging. Both took 3 years to finally come around, at 2 years one was barely drinkable and the 2nd was not. Some of the super premium kits really take a long time to mature, but patience can be rewarded.


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## MiBor (Aug 29, 2019)

joeswine said:


> ...if you have the basics then all you need to do is try.



And I tried. With great results, in my opinion. For the weak and watery Pinot Grigio I started with 3 lbs of store bought white peaches and half a stick of vanilla, sauteed with 3 cups of water in a large pan for an hour, no sugar. I was left with about 3/4 cup after I strained it, When I added the flavoring to the wine in the carboy, which was clear at this point, it became cloudy again. I also added k-sorbate and 3g of FT Blanc. The wine settled and cleared in a couple of weeks and I racked it. It is really good now. It has a subtle white peach smell and taste, with just a hint of sweetness and vanilla, but the general flavor is unmistakably PG. Also the FT Blanc added more body to the wine. I think it is more of a "mist" type of wine now, but at least it is pleasant to drink and I've already been asked to make more...
Thanks again @tjgaul for sharing your f-pack recipes.


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