# Where to start?



## Old Philosopher

Finally made it to the beer section, but I didn't find a thread quite as basic as my question.
Momma wants beer. She's had her eye on those kits you can get from every place from Wal-Mart to Cabelas. Most of them have this cutesy little "keg", some chemistry, and a bunch of plastic bottles.
I've looked at other "starter kits" that have a lot of hardware I already own, are very expensive, and look like the beginnings of a full-blown microbrewery operation. Getting into the wine/cider scene, I have some appliances already: buckets, 3 to 5 gallon carboys, siphoning equipment, etc.
So my question is very basic:
Do I surprise her with one of these package store set ups under the Christmas tree, or can we get started with the mere addition of a wort kit, and use the hardware we already have?
(Rats! Now I have to learn a whole new jargon, just to get a bottle of suds.)


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## St Allie

Those supermarket 'wort' kits are great.. just don't drink them at the stated 4 weeks bottled mark..Leave them an extra 4 to 6 weeks.. they do improve a lot.

Allie


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## cpfan

OP

I see three types in your post.

1. Mister Beer kit (I think thats what you meant). NO NO NO. Some people get them to work but most don't. They'll explode in your fridge.

2. A wort kit like I mentioned in the other thread. My preference. You can use your existing wine equipment. I use a separate primary, and one of my glass carboys. A friend has a plastic carboy that he uses for beer only. OOPS the kits I know make 6 US gallons (23 litres). You only mentioned 5 USG.

3. Some version of "from scratch". Real brewers do it this way. Infinitely customizable, but more work to get the beer started. And as you said more equipment.

4. Cans of malt extract. Coopers is the commonest brand in Canada. A little more work than a wort kit. Cheaper, but not as good.

Steve


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## St Allie

oops.. meant a malt extract kit.. I thought a wort kit was the same as what you buy in the supermarket.

Coopers and brewtec.. are common brands in NZ too.

Allie


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## Old Philosopher

Thanks, Steve. I don't want to spent $50-$80 on a bomb I could make with baking soda and vinegar!


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## Wade E

The wort in the bag does a decnt job with little to no work. The next step up is the extract kit which I believe make very good beers, better to me then the bag of wort but more involved. the all grain method produces beer that is awesome but you really need to do some seriuos reading or be there with a guy to watch it done at least 2 times to get the feel and there is quite the equipment investment involved to do it right. I dont think I would try that Walamrt keg thingy myself.


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## Old Philosopher

cpfan said:


> OP
> 
> I see three types in your post.
> 
> 1. Mister Beer kit (I think thats what you meant). NO NO NO. Some people get them to work but most don't. They'll explode in your fridge.
> 
> 2. A wort kit like I mentioned in the other thread. My preference. You can use your existing wine equipment. I use a separate primary, and one of my glass carboys. A friend has a plastic carboy that he uses for beer only. OOPS the kits I know make 6 US gallons (23 litres). You only mentioned 5 USG.
> 
> 3. Some version of "from scratch". Real brewers do it this way. Infinitely customizable, but more work to get the beer started. And as you said more equipment.
> 
> 4. Cans of malt extract. Coopers is the commonest brand in Canada. A little more work than a wort kit. Cheaper, but not as good.
> 
> Steve


It sounds like the wort kit is my best choice at this point. Any recommendations, or things to look out for?


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## Malkore

I'd get a pre-made recipe for a beer style she likes. Don't get the pre-made wort. Just get an extract kit that uses UN-hopped malt extract, and comes with pellet hops and probably some steeping grains.

Brewer's Best is a commercial 'kit maker' that makes their kits along these lines. hopped extracts just don't taste right...and are kind of limiting.

I"m big on all grain brewing but I've done my share of extract kits in my earlier days. I'd avoid the Mr. Beer type kits too. They are spendy for what you get.


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## cpfan

St Allie said:


> oops.. meant a malt extract kit.. I thought a wort kit was the same as what you buy in the supermarket.


Allie:

A wort kit looks a lot like a wine kit. When you open the box there is a large bag (varies from 7.5 to 23 litres) and some additives (at minimum yeast).

Steve


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## cpfan

Old Philosopher said:


> It sounds like the wort kit is my best choice at this point. Any recommendations, or things to look out for?


OP: As I said in the other thread, the Brewhouse Pale Ale might be a good choice for your friend.

My wife likes Corona, so we make Brewhouse Mexican Cerveza or Brewers Spring Mexican Lager (which comes with ale yeast). The Barons brand is also good. I'm going to pick up a Baron's Dutch Lager this winter. Made it a few years ago, and enjoyed it.

Steve


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## Old Philosopher

cpfan said:


> OP: As I said in the other thread, the Brewhouse Pale Ale might be a good choice for your friend.
> 
> My wife likes Corona, so we make Brewhouse Mexican Cerveza or Brewers Spring Mexican Lager (which comes with ale yeast). The Barons brand is also good. I'm going to pick up a Baron's Dutch Lager this winter. Made it a few years ago, and enjoyed it.
> 
> Steve


Most helpful, Steve! Can you give me a reliable site to deal with? If you did already, chalk it up to me having a senior moment.


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## Wade E

http://finevinewines.com/
This site sells both the Brewers best which is the extract kit which needs to be boiled and the RJS BrewHouse. 

Edit: Okay I dont see the Brewhose kits there anymore and have pmed the owner cause they just switched forum companies and wonder if that didnt make the change or if he stopped selling it.


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> http://finevinewines.com/
> This site sells both the Brewers best which is the extract kit which needs to be boiled and the RJS BrewHouse.
> 
> Edit: Okay I dont see the Brewhose kits there anymore and have pmed the owner cause they just switched forum companies and wonder if that didnt make the change or if he stopped selling it.


That was the first place I checked, and didn't see ANY brewing kits. Got the link to the right page?


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> http://finevinewines.com/
> This site sells both the Brewers best which is the extract kit which needs to be boiled and the RJS BrewHouse.
> 
> Edit: Okay I dont see the Brewhose kits there anymore and have pmed the owner cause they just switched forum companies and wonder if that didnt make the change or if he stopped selling it.



Okay, another senior moment. I found the area at FVW, and I also checked the brewery's web site. What I'm aiming at is a double-hopped, Irish-style pale ale. Whew...
So FVW offers:
American Lite Ale
American Amber Ale
Classic English Pale Ale

I'm thinking the English....


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## Wade E

He stopped selling the Brewhouse due to the price he had to sell them at and the shipping to people just didnt justify the price which most of the time worked out to about $60 so he stopped selling them. Looks like this might be watch your sort of looking for http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetBB.asp?PartNumber=11013 or even the English Ale http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetBB.asp?PartNumber=11006 like you said. Check around though as there are plenty of places and these are boil kits which are easy but you will need a decent pot to do so and a sink full of ice to cool it down.


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## Old Philosopher

Great! I missed that micro pale.


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## Wade E

He is going to be switching Brands again to True Brew kits and they have 1 even closer to what you really want. here is a link and look down a little to the Belgian Ale. 
http://crosby-baker.com/products.php?cat=106&nav=105

Give him a call or send him a pm and I bet he'll grab one up for you earlier. tell him I sent ya!


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> He stopped selling the Brewhouse due to the price he had to sell them at and the shipping to people just didnt justify the price which most of the time worked out to about $60 so he stopped selling them. Looks like this might be watch your sort of looking for http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetBB.asp?PartNumber=11013 or even the English Ale http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetBB.asp?PartNumber=11006 like you said. Check around though as there are plenty of places and these are boil kits which are easy but you will need a decent pot to do so and a sink full of ice to cool it down.



Don't know if I'm ready to jump in with both feet that far, but cooling down is not a problem. I'll just set it outside in a snow bank. 

Okay, just to be sure: I have 5 gallon buckets, I can get a 5 gallon carboy in about 15 minutes. I have racking siphons, hydrometer, airlocks, etc., etc. It sounds to me like all I need to round out a "kit" like I've seen is a "French spigot" to put in one of the buckets. 

I got on another brewing site, and they have a thread about Mr. Beer kits. That's what SWMBO has her eye on, but everything I read said the beer was usually a failure, and it was only a good place to start for someone who had no equipment at all. Does that just about sum it up? I don't want to spend $50 and find, after 6 weeks, that I have 2 1/2 gallons of panther pee...


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## TheTooth

*Just say no to Mr. Beer...*

You are hearing correctly. Mr. Beer is terrible. I have never heard of anyone being happy, although many have started with that and moved on to make beer they were willing to drink afterwards.

Honestly, you'll make the best beer when you can actually boil your wort. Barring that, you already have what you need from wine-making.

You can use a carboy or bucket to ferment in. You don't need a spigot at all... you can transfer and bottle using the same equipment you currently use for wine.


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## TheTooth

*Oh... one thing...*

I almost forgot about the 5 gallon bucket/carboy statement in your last post.

Almost all beer ingredient kits are designed to make 5 gallons. A 5 gallon bucket/carboy won't be big enough to deal with the fermentation process and the krausen (foamy head) that it will produce. You'll want a bigger bucket or carboy (6.5 gallon is typical for this) for your primary fermentation.


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## Old Philosopher

TheTooth said:


> I almost forgot about the 5 gallon bucket/carboy statement in your last post.
> 
> Almost all beer ingredient kits are designed to make 5 gallons. A 5 gallon bucket/carboy won't be big enough to deal with the fermentation process and the krausen (foamy head) that it will produce. You'll want a bigger bucket or carboy (6.5 gallon is typical for this) for your primary fermentation.


Thanks. That's the second time that's been pointed out to me. My local farm store has 7 gal food-grade buckets. How many to I need? Sounds like two, for one kit.


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## Buffman

Old Philosopher said:


> Thanks. That's the second time that's been pointed out to me. My local farm store has 7 gal food-grade buckets. How many to I need? Sounds like two, for one kit.



You'll need only 1 bucket that size, as a primary. Plenty of headspace for the krausen. Some brewers rack the beer after 7-10 days, but it is not necessary, especially for extract kits. If you do rack to a secondary, though, the 7g bucket will be too much headspace - more chance of oxidation. I transfer to a 5g carboy when I need a secondary.


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## TheTooth

Buffman said:


> You'll need only 1 bucket that size, as a primary. Plenty of headspace for the krausen. Some brewers rack the beer after 7-10 days, but it is not necessary, especially for extract kits. If you do rack to a secondary, though, the 7g bucket will be too much headspace - more chance of oxidation. I transfer to a 5g carboy when I need a secondary.



+1 Only one bucket is necessary for fermentation. The only time you need to rack to a secondary is when you want to dry hop or add additional spicing without leaving the beer sitting on the yeast/trub. Most beers will ferment out completely and be ready to bottle within 7 - 14 days. You can safely leave your beer on the yeast/trub for 4 weeks before you need to start worrying about autolysis.

When I used to bottle my beer, I liked having a second bucket for bottling purposes, though. I would rack off the yeast/trub into the bottling bucket, which I already had sugar in for carbonation, and bottle from there.


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## Old Philosopher

Buffman said:


> You'll need only 1 bucket that size, as a primary. Plenty of headspace for the krausen. Some brewers rack the beer after 7-10 days, but it is not necessary, especially for extract kits. If you do rack to a secondary, though, the 7g bucket will be too much headspace - more chance of oxidation. I transfer to a 5g carboy when I need a secondary.


Now comes the bottling question. :< Sounds like that could get expensive. The Mr. Beer comes with 8 x 1 liter plastic bottles with screw caps. Can't find anything like that at FVW. They don't even tell you what kind of cap their 12 or 21 oz bottles take.


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## TheTooth

Old Philosopher said:


> Now comes the bottling question. :< Sounds like that could get expensive. The Mr. Beer comes with 8 x 1 liter plastic bottles with screw caps. Can't find anything like that at FVW. They don't even tell you what kind of cap their 12 or 21 oz bottles take.



You really don't want to mess around with screw-top plastic bottles. When I bottled, I splurged on a few cases of the swing-top (also called grolsch-style) bottles. It was nice not dealing with a bottle-capper or having to keep buying bottle caps.

Also, bottle caps for bottles sold at most homebrew supply shops are going to be the same size.


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## Buffman

Avoid screw caps. You'll want the regular beer bottles or swing-tops. I, too, splurged on several cases of swing-top bottles (EZ Cap brand). They're 16oz., so bottling is faster and capping is easier. But they are definitely more expensive. If you go with 12oz or the larger "bomber" size, or both, you need a capper also. Like Tooth said, the caps are the same.


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## Old Philosopher

Buffman said:


> Avoid screw caps. You'll want the regular beer bottles or swing-tops. I, too, splurged on several cases of swing-top bottles (EZ Cap brand). They're 16oz., so bottling is faster and capping is easier. But they are definitely more expensive. If you go with 12oz or the larger "bomber" size, or both, you need a capper also. Like Tooth said, the caps are the same.


My bro-in-law (may he rest in peace) left us the wine stuff, and he was also brewing. I have about a half-dozen swing-top bottles from him, but they are about 10 oz., and 6 is not enough to get anywhere.
Mr. Beer (  ) et al, will let you bottle 7.5 one liter bottles (included), or the equivalent of 21 12oz bottles. A kit will yield about 53 12oz bottles. 
Humm...
A 5 gallon batch = 19 liters, or about 53 12oz bottles of beer.
12 swing-top 1 liter bottles = $42.00
50 swing-top 12 oz bottles = $106.00
48 standard 12 oz bottles = $29.00
A bottle capper runs about $16.00, and the caps are $4.00/gross (144)

Plus, if I get everyone to save me their bottles, I'll probably have enough free ones by the time the brew is ready. Hehehe.


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## Malkore

TheTooth said:


> +1 Only one bucket is necessary for fermentation. The only time you need to rack to a secondary is when you want to dry hop or add additional spicing without leaving the beer sitting on the yeast/trub.



This part is very debatable. I get much clearer beers when I do a secondary. But, I always secondary in glass, not plastic, and I won't always secondary. depends on the style and such.

again, very debatable, which is why I wanted to offer my counter-point.


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## TheTooth

Malkore said:


> This part is very debatable. I get much clearer beers when I do a secondary. But, I always secondary in glass, not plastic, and I won't always secondary. depends on the style and such.
> 
> again, very debatable, which is why I wanted to offer my counter-point.



Good point... you can get more clarity that way. I've been kegging for a few years now, so I'm used to my beer clearing so well in the keg that it's unnecessary. Clarity is overrated, though... especially if you're making darker beers. 

Also... I should add that if you are going to do a secondary, use a carboy as Malkore says. You don't want to keep exposing your beer to more oxygen through the oxygen-permeable plastic walls of a bucket.


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## Old Philosopher

TheTooth said:


> Also... I should add that if you are going to do a secondary, use a carboy as Malkore says. You don't want to keep exposing your beer to more oxygen through the oxygen-permeable plastic walls of a bucket.


Wouldn't a plastic carboy have the same permeability as a bucket? Is it the walls of the bucket, or the fact that you can't always seal it air tight?


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## TheTooth

Old Philosopher said:


> Wouldn't a plastic carboy have the same permeability as a bucket? Is it the walls of the bucket, or the fact that you can't always seal it air tight?



That's another great debate. LOL

Better Bottle plastic carboys are said to be as good as glass, while other plastic carboys are said to be as bad as a bucket.

The walls of the bucket are the issue. Oxygen leeches through the walls and into you beverage. This isn't really an issue during primary fermentation, but if you are going to transfer to store for extra clearing after fermentation is complete it could be an issue.

I know this is a contentious subject, but I honestly recommend not bothering with a secondary. The beer will clear in the bottle while carbonating and chilling anyway. Whether or not you use a secondary, you will end up with sediment on the bottom of the bottle from the carbonation process.

On a side note, you'll want to pour your beer into a glass to enjoy it, decanting it off the sediment that will collect on the bottom of the bottle. If you just dump out the bottle or drink out of the bottle (disturbing the sediment as you tip it into your mouth), you'll end up with a cloudy beer full of yeast. Bleah.


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## Wade E

I agree with Malkore about racking into glass. If Im doing a Wheat beer then it stays in the bucket but most others come out and clear in carboy for awhile. I keg now but beer bottles can b grabbed very easy. If you know someone that works at a bar or have some beer drinking buddies you can have enough in no time at all. Caps are cheap and so is the capper. I always rack to clean vessel before bottling an add the sugar there and make sure you keep stirring while your bottling so you dont end up with some flat bottles and some bottle bombs! Another option is the carbonating tablets but I prefer the sugar myself.


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> I agree with Malkore about racking into glass. If Im doing a Wheat beer then it stays in the bucket but most others come out and clear in carboy for awhile. I keg now but beer bottles can b grabbed very easy. If you know someone that works at a bar or have some beer drinking buddies you can have enough in no time at all. Caps are cheap and so is the capper. I always rack to clean vessel before bottling an add the sugar there and make sure you keep stirring while your bottling so you dont end up with some flat bottles and some bottle bombs! Another option is the carbonating tablets but I prefer the sugar myself.


Thanks guys, all great info!
I would go with the sugar, because I (we) avoid any strange chemicals when possible.
TT. educate me here. O2 is a big issue with wine making. My understanding is that is the purpose of an airlock on your secondary. Yet I haven't heard anybody talking about O2 leaching through 1st or ND fermenter walls. Why is it critical with beer, and not wine?


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## TheTooth

Old Philosopher said:


> Thanks guys, all great info!
> I would go with the sugar, because I (we) avoid any strange chemicals when possible.
> TT. educate me here. O2 is a big issue with wine making. My understanding is that is the purpose of an airlock on your secondary. Yet I haven't heard anybody talking about O2 leaching through 1st or ND fermenter walls. Why is it critical with beer, and not wine?



Limiting oxygen exposure is critical to making better beer and wine. That's why primary fermentation of your wine is fine in a plastic bucket, but after the first couple weeks when it's mostly reached it's terminal gravity you need to move it to a glass or better bottle carboy with an airlock.

The airlock's purpose is 2-fold, though. While it does work to keep oxygen out of your wine/beer, it also prevents other contaminants and wild yeast from getting in and spoiling your beer/wine.


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## Old Philosopher

TheTooth said:


> Limiting oxygen exposure is critical to making better beer and wine. That's why primary fermentation of your wine is fine in a plastic bucket, but after the first couple weeks when it's mostly reached it's terminal gravity you need to move it to a glass or better bottle carboy with an airlock.
> 
> The airlock's purpose is 2-fold, though. While it does work to keep oxygen out of your wine/beer, it also prevents other contaminants and wild yeast from getting in and spoiling your beer/wine.


Understand all that, but after a couple weeks of intense research, I've found dozens of wine makers who use plastic secondaries. Your comments are the first I've heard of them being permeable to O2.


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## Wade E

Beer will be in and out much faster and since you dont degas your beer it doesnt really get much exposure to 02 as its still usually saturated with C02


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> Beer will be in and out much faster and since you dont degas your beer it doesnt really get much exposure to 02 as its still usually saturated with C02


Now THAT makes sense. Thanks, Wade.


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## Wade E

Better bottles are not permeable. Water bottles are but the small amount is probably no big deal and might be good as small amount of 02 are good for wine and 1 of 2 reasons the world ages wine in barrels. I just dont like them because I can taste what it does when water is in there for long and the fact that they are flimsy.


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## TheTooth

Old Philosopher said:


> Understand all that, but after a couple weeks of intense research, I've found dozens of wine makers who use plastic secondaries. Your comments are the first I've heard of them being permeable to O2.



Got me on that. I personally don't know of anyone that uses plastic as a secondary for anything. Of course, most of my experience is with homebrewing. I'm still pretty new to winemaking. Everything I've read on it, though, says that you are trying to limit oxygen just like with beer, so I try to steer clear of long-term storage in plastic.

The exception to this is better bottles, which are supposed to be made with a new plastic process which is supposed to suppress gas permeability to near-glass levels.

Wade has a good point that your oxygen exposure in a week or two will be minimal... so you're probably ok with that. If you already have carboys from your winemaking, though, it won't hurt to use one of them for your secondary (bright tank, really, as fermentation should be completed before racking the beer to the second vessel).


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## TheTooth

"How to Brew" by John Palmer is a great book to read for someone who wants to start homebrewing.

You can buy his book if you want a hardcopy, but he also posts it for free online at: 
http://www.howtobrew.com/


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## Wade E

O2 and wine are actuallty friends. But it has to be done in small amounts ove a long time. This is called micro-oxygenation. This process really enhances a wine just like decantng does and by doing this with a barrel small amounts of water evaporate over time (Called the "Angels Share") and your wine has to be topped up often due to this. What is happening is that ypour wine is acy=tually concentrating like this and aging in the preocess. Not all wineries do this anymore cause its time consuming and it takes more monitering on their behalf. Lots of places now age in Stainless Steel tanks and use oak staves to oak their wine.


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## Old Philosopher

TheTooth said:


> "How to Brew" by John Palmer is a great book to read for someone who wants to start homebrewing.
> 
> You can buy his book if you want a hardcopy, but he also posts it for free online at:
> http://www.howtobrew.com/


Thaks, TT!!! Free on-line fits my budget perfectly. 

BTW Everybody: YES! SWMBO just agreed to scrap the Mr. Beer idea and go for the gusto!


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> ... If you know someone that works at a bar or have some beer drinking buddies you can have enough in no time at all....


Haha! Great idea. We have at least 2 friends who are bartenders, and know the manager of the local VFW club. In a weekend, I could have enough empties to last me a year!!!


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## TheTooth

Old Philosopher said:


> Haha! Great idea. We have at least 2 friends who are bartenders, and know the manager of the local VFW club. In a weekend, I could have enough empties to last me a year!!!



Awesome! I wish I knew one that could hook me up like that. I'm good with beer (kegs), but I'm still trying to keep up with my wine bottle consumption.


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## Old Philosopher

TheTooth said:


> Awesome! I wish I knew one that could hook me up like that. I'm good with beer (kegs), but I'm still trying to keep up with my wine bottle consumption.


Wine bottles could be a problem with that resource. The clientèle there is more into the screw-top coolers. Hahaha. I'm doing my cider in 1 gallon jugs. Wine bottles don't fit the mood, and don't have that little finger ring do-hickey so you can swig it over your shoulder.


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## Wade E

Just remember you dont want screw top bottles.


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> Just remember you dont want screw top bottles.


I have the capper and 144 caps in my Wish List, ready to hit the "go" button! Hahaha.


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## Wade E

Remember that a lot of the bottles you collect will probably be scrw tops so tell them you dont want them.


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## Old Philosopher

Wade E said:


> Remember that a lot of the bottles you collect will probably be scrw tops so tell them you dont want them.



Good point! Pop tops only. Hehehe. At least I won't be washing a bunch of Bud LIte and Kokanee bottles!
But wait a minnit. I know I can buy screw tops, and the bottles ARE glass...so why not screw tops?


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## Malkore

www.howtobrew.com is the condensed version that gives you a taste of the full purchasable book.

wanted to clear that up...the online book is NOT complete.


Screw top bottles aren't as thick. You also have to use a crown capper to cap them.

go make friends with any bartender and ask if you can haul away their pop-top bottles.

I've bought bottles CHEAP from the local budweiser distributor too. like $2.40 per case of longnecks and they came in the old heavy duty cardboard case. dirty, and had to be delabeled, but well worth it.


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## TheTooth

Malkore said:


> www.howtobrew.com is the condensed version that gives you a taste of the full purchasable book.
> 
> wanted to clear that up...the online book is NOT complete.



Thanks for the clarification. I own the book (worth the purchase, IMO), so I was going on what I'd read from others about it being complete online. Sorry for the bad information.


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## Hillbilly Bill

Here is the link for the complete 1999 1st edition of John Palmer's *How to Brew*:

http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html


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