# Backfilling headspace with Argon



## ibglowin (Sep 8, 2009)

Is anyone else out there using Argon gas to backfill the headspace of your mostly full carboys?

I have been using this technique as an added safety measure and wondered if anyone else was doing this as well.

I have a cylinder of UHP Argon and just start a slow stream via Tygon tube from the regulator for ~ 15 seconds then quickly add the airlock.

I am especially interested in using this technique on my MM All Juice Amarone as I don't won't to top off with a $65 bottle of Amarone.

I have glass marbles as well but don't want to use them until I get the clarifying solids racked off. Then I want to bulk age for around 6 months in carboy.

Anyone see any problems with this as a short term anti-oxidation feature?


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## smurfe (Sep 8, 2009)

Is Argon heavier than air? I believe it is and I believe others have done this. I use CO2 for beer but have never for wine. I just top off. WHat I do is purge the carboy or keg with CO2 and then rack the beer into the container with the hose on the bottom. As the liquid rises in the vessel the CO2 will blanket the liquid and rise with it. The gas will push the oxygen up and out of the vessel so when I have reached the stopping point all area above the level of the liquid is CO2 and the oxygen has been pushed up and out of the vessel. I then pop in an airlock.


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## ibglowin (Sep 8, 2009)

Yes, it is! If you backfill with Argon then light a match and stick it down the neck of the carboy it will go out immediately.

George sells a small bottle of this for saving open bottles of wine in this fashion.

http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=4319

I have an actual cylinder that can be refilled. It should last a looooong time.


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## RickC (Sep 8, 2009)

Mike, I have recently purchased the cans from George andstarted using them on my last kit. I filled headspace, added some to the primary during final tranfer for bottling, and added a brief blast into the bottles. Anything to keep oxygen at bay. Hard to tell whether or not it will be worth the cost but I want to take all precautions to get the bestwines I can.


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## ibglowin (Sep 9, 2009)

Thats my feeling as well. Since all I have are these 6 1/4 gallon Italian carboys by the time you drain off the lees your left with quite alot of headspace. I don't minding topping off a bit but not 2 bottles worth especially if its Amarone @ $65 a bottle!






I have marbles but am hoping that a blast every few weeks as well as keeping up on my K-Meta every few months will do the trick!

The cans are pretty $$$ for this type of work so picking up a cylinder (from a local supply house) is much more economical for this type of approach.


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## PeterZ (Sep 9, 2009)

The argon should work fine. I don't have the density of argon gas at STP handy, but I do know it is heavier than air. Being a noble gas, it is completely inert. Picking up a cylinder is a good idea. Should last you years.


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## ibglowin (Sep 9, 2009)

Thanks Peter!

Density of Argon @ STP is 1.78x10-3 g/cm-3

Density of Dry Air @ STP is 1.30x10-3 g/cm-3

So its definitely heavier than Air.

Now the question becomes how long will it last in an stoppered airlock system?


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## surlees (Sep 9, 2009)

I use CO2 to top off because I was able to get a deal on a secondhand CO2regulator. Argon is more expensive and less available than CO2. My 5 lb. CO2 cylinder cost $90 full and refills are $10. You can pickup a CO2 regulaor on ebay for about $35. I think it's a worthwhile investment if you're going to stay with winemaking.


I have read somewhere that carboys with aging wine should beretopped about every two- three weeks, so that's about how often I do it. I don't think it's criitical to do it that often because CO2 and argon are heavier than air and I don't think they're going anywhere in a carboy w/airlock.


Fred


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## PeterZ (Sep 10, 2009)

The need to recharge is a function of temperature stability. If the temperature is stable (zero variation) then you would not need to recharge very often. If the temperature varies a lot, then warming will expel argon and cooling will draw in air. It's all empirical, though. I would think once a month would be enough, but given the vast quantity of argon you have, once a week would be a guarantee.


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## Jeff D (Sep 15, 2009)

You can use a chip of dry ice to fill the head space. Drop a small piece in and apply the air lock, it will act like a run away fermentation for a few seconds.


Jeff


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## Big Ike (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks Jeff. While I didn't ask the question, I was wondering how I might accomplish the same. That is a great idea!

Ike


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## harryjpowell (Mar 15, 2010)

If this thread is still alive, I too want to use Argon, what cap on the carboy makes it the eaiset to use a fill tube for the gas and an airlock. I've seen the orange caps at my local store, is that the setup to top off the headspace?


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## ibglowin (Mar 15, 2010)

I just pull the airlock off the top of the carboy and stream Argon (via a long tube from the regulator) into the headspace for 30 seconds and then quickly recap. Since Argon is heavier than air it will blanket the top of the wine.I usually top off every few weeks just to be safe but if you stick a long butane lighter into the top and it goes out immediately then you know there is not much oxygen still in the headspace.


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## hayfire (Mar 16, 2010)

Jeff D said:


> You can use a chip of dry ice to fill the head space. Drop a small piece in and apply the air lock, it will act like a run away fermentation for a few seconds.
> 
> 
> Jeff




How big of a chip? I am just wondering how much gas you get with a certain size chip of dry ice? How much space do you need in the carboy for the volcano?


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## Runningwolf (Sep 27, 2010)

Mike, I just found this thread after pm'ing you. My flo meter was sent out today along with a hose. I'll be swapping out tanks later this week.


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## AlFulchino (Sep 27, 2010)

i also use argon when too much head space is an issue....just remember not to breath it in..being heavier than air, you can suffocate....nice to have someone around to squeeze your diaphragm if need be


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## tonyt (Sep 27, 2010)

My brother (not a winemaker or wine geek, just a wine drinker) recently toured about 6 of our Texas Hill Country wineries. He came back telling me that just ablut every one of them was using some gas to prevent oxygen from ruining the wine. He said some of them even said that they squirt a little gas into every bottle. As soon as he got home he called me to share this "trick" that all of them were talking about and suggest I start doing it. I told him that the cans were kind of expensive. Where can we get bottles of it and how do you regulate it into the carboy or bottle?


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## Runningwolf (Sep 27, 2010)

This is what I got to regulate it on Ebay.. http://cgi.ebay.com/Argon-CO2-Mig-Tig-Flow-meter-Regulator-Welding-Weld-New-/200511924517?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&amp;hash=item2eaf712925I called the company direct and also ordered a hose to go along with. You'll have to go to a welding shop to get the tank and argon.


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## Bartman (Sep 28, 2010)

This may be a little more reasonable for the low-volume winemaker -
http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=4319


Private Preserve®


Argon, Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide gas to prevent oxidation of your wine in the bottle and in the carboy.

$11.99 - a bargain at twice the price!


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2010)

Private Reserve has been getting some rave reviews on the intertubes. 

People are reporting being able to save a half drained bottle for up to a week. If a winery is using gas I would think its for the same reason we use it. For temporarily topping off secondary containers. It works and it works very well.


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2010)

Al Fulchino said:


> i also use argon when too much head space is an issue....just remember not to breath it in..being heavier than air, you can suffocate....nice to have someone around to squeeze your diaphragm if need me



Darwin's Theory pertains to winemakers as well!


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## Runningwolf (Sep 29, 2010)

My flo control and hose came today and I am now in business for taking care of any head space!


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## ibglowin (Sep 29, 2010)

That should do the trick nicely!

Whats all those empty glass things on the floor?


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## robie (Sep 29, 2010)

ttortorice said:


> He said some of them even said that they squirt a little gas into every bottle.


Hm-m-m-m-m. I would not put gas in a wine bottle before filling and corking it. The right amount of oxygen is a good thing. One of the advantages of a cork over most screw-on caps it that it breaths and lets oxygen in (and CO2 out). A recent study shows that the screw-on tops, which don't let in any air, are starting to demonstrate that mercaptans and other bad chemicals form inside easier and are tainting the wine. To combat this, they are starting to make screw-ons that let in some air. For the latter, regulating the tightness of the cap is a big issue.



ibglowin said:


> Private Reserve has been getting some rave reviews on the intertubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This particular packaging is intended for laying down a layer of protection inside a previously opened
bottle of wine. I have a can of this and I can assure you it won't
last long if you try to use it in a carboy. It weighs almost nothing!


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## ibglowin (Sep 29, 2010)

Someone finally figured out a way to sell bottled "air" so to speak!


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## Runningwolf (Sep 29, 2010)

ibglowin said:


> That should do the trick nicely!
> 
> Whats all those empty glass things on the floor?





Mike what you don't see is the three tables full of full carboys and primaries on the floor bubbling away. I do pick up additional carboys when I see them at household sales. The following is additional wine I plan on making yet this Fall and what ever else that comes along:


Blackberry/ Isabella
Gewürztraminer
chocolate/Vignoles ice wine
Vignole Ice Wine
diamond/cranberry
Cayuga/Niagara 85/15 blend
Niagara/Cayuga 85/15 blend
CranApple Chardonnay RJS
Orange Chocolate Port RJS


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## robie (Sep 29, 2010)

Runningwolf,
My, my, my! You are hooked for sure!

I have 4 fermentor buckets and 9 carboys. I couldn't begin to keep up with you.


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## Flame145 (May 21, 2011)

surlees said:


> I use CO2 to top off because I was able to get a deal on a secondhand CO2regulator. Argon is more expensive and less available than CO2. My 5 lb. CO2 cylinder cost $90 full and refills are $10. You can pickup a CO2 regulaor on ebay for about $35. I think it's a worthwhile investment if you're going to stay with winemaking.
> 
> 
> I have read somewhere that carboys with aging wine should beretopped about every two- three weeks, so that's about how often I do it. I don't think it's criitical to do it that often because CO2 and argon are heavier than air and I don't think they're going anywhere in a carboy w/airlock.
> ...




you are much better off topping off w/ argon. argon is completely inert and will not mix with your wine. Co2 is not and it can be absorbed into the wine. I use a flow meter with a 5 foot hose attached to the regulator. This way I can add at only 1 to 2 pounds off pressure gently, and the argon is not just blowing out. 
Also be careful to not breath any in, it can kill you. argon is heavier than air, and if a good enoughamount was breathed in, it will fill lungs and 
you will suffocate.
Other than that I use it all the times on my wines when racking, or for topping off. If making large quantities and you are using Variable lid SS tank, they also make purge system regulator that will add and subtract argon to wine. It will adjust as when moves / evaporates


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## CowboyPhil (Jul 26, 2011)

I used the dry ice technique, I have a 6 gallon carboy but only making 3 gallons of wine, I added about a 2" x 2" piece of ice, in chips, air locked and waited for it to stop going crazy. The carboy was filled with CO2 gas. It cleared and all seems well.


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## ErikM (Apr 18, 2021)

I use argon. It is heavier than co2. i have a small tank and regulator that i bought on ebay. I use it to top off anything that will sit for than a couple of months (I do all aging in the carboy). Tank will last me a year or two. Last time I had it filled I seem to recall it was $22.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 18, 2021)

ErikM said:


> I use argon. It is heavier than co2.



Not true. CO2 is ~10% denser than Ar.

However, beware that in either case, any air or O2 that remains in the headspace will have unfettered access to the wine.


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## ErikM (Apr 18, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Not true. CO2 is ~10% denser than Ar.
> 
> However, beware that in either case, any air or O2 that remains in the headspace will have unfettered access to the wine.


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## ErikM (Apr 18, 2021)

You are of course correct. I had nitrogen on the brain.
I am not a chemist, but in my notes I have the weights of typical gasses, from lightest on top to the heaviest-

oxygen
nitrogen
"air" (blend of gasses)
argon
CO2 (another "blend")

What I recall reading somewhere is that CO2 mixes very easily with oxygen, where as argon tends to not mix so readily, and argon tends to creates a layer below the ambient air (which contains the evil oxygen.) Complete purging of the headspace of "air" is not as crital with argon. 
The weight of nitrogen is very close to that of air, and does not tend to layer. Thorough purging is necessary to reap the benefit.
That is why chose argon.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 18, 2021)

ErikM said:


> You are of course correct. I had nitrogen on the brain.
> I am not a chemist, but in my notes I have the weights of typical gasses, from lightest on top to the heaviest-
> 
> oxygen
> ...



Unfortunately, this is not true. There is no "blanketing effect." Gases mix freely within a few minutes. The final composition of the headspace will be uniform (to about 5 decimal places) throughout the volume.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 19, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Unfortunately, this is not true. There is no "blanketing effect." Gases mix freely within a few minutes. The final composition of the headspace will be uniform (to about 5 decimal places) throughout the volume.


This lends credence to my habit of eliminating headspace. During and after fermentation, the wine is emitting enough CO2 that a week or two of large head space has never been a problem. However, I don't leave it long, 1 to 2 weeks while fermentation completes in the carboy and the gross lees compact. 

But I've been uncomfortable with the idea of using an invisible insert gas to fill the container. IF we could be sure the space was completely filled by the inert gas, it's probably fine, but I don't see how that is possible.


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## TurkeyHollow (Apr 19, 2021)

I use argon as well. The advantage is that it is not soluble (or at least less soluble than CO2) in the wine.


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## sjjan (Apr 20, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Unfortunately, this is not true. There is no "blanketing effect." Gases mix freely within a few minutes. The final composition of the headspace will be uniform (to about 5 decimal places) throughout the volume.


Are you saying that it doesn’t help to put Argon in the headspace as it would mix with the air there?


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## TurkeyHollow (Apr 20, 2021)

I think there is no better way to preventing oxidation that reducing the surface to which a given amount of oxygen has access. That being said, reducing the concentration of oxygen accessible to the wine (if it does happen to mix) does pretty much the same. If the two methods are employed, very small amounts of oxygen are exposed to a very small wine surface. I also think the technique by which these methods are used can greatly affect their success. For example, if you have 4 gallons of wine in a 6 gallon carboy and you just dump argon into the carboy at a high rate, your results wont be as good as if you fill your empty carboy with argon at a slow rate restricting the escape of gas then racking wine into it from the bottom. This will allow the wine to displace the argon (through restricted flow). When the volume of wine doesn't make it up into the neck of the carboy, you can add (sanitized) glass marbles to make up the volume.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 20, 2021)

*This article* on WineMakerMag regarding how long a layer of argon lasts meshes with @sour_grapes's point.

Adding argon is not like pouring water into oil, where the oil will quickly float to the top. The argon mixes with the existing air, and you'll never get 100% of the air replaced. Worse, you will never know, unless you have access to a lab, just how large the argon part of the mixture is.

Those considering using an insert gas to fill head space should understand what really occurs and use that information to make an informed decision.

The last paragraph of the article, which speaks of how commercial wineries handle topup is interesting, as apparently it's common to have many smaller tanks, and using inert gas as a last choice.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 20, 2021)

sjjan said:


> Are you saying that it doesn’t help to put Argon in the headspace as it would mix with the air there?



No, that is not quite what I am saying. @TurkeyHollow and @winemaker81 have already covered the essentials, but let me put my spin on it.

Argon can definitely help. If you introduce it carefully, you can displace most of the air out of the headspace. It takes tens of seconds to a few minutes for the gases to intermix, so if you introduce argon near the surface of the wine at low flow rates (to minimize turbulence), you can push most of the air out of the top of the carboy.

The point I was making above, however, is that any air (oxygen) that you do leave in the carboy will have access to your wine. In other words, argon only helps by dilution/displacement, not by virtue of some "magical blanket," which simply does not exist.


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## Keiyh (Jun 30, 2021)

I decided this would be the best answer for my headspace. See picture. How much and how often do you need to add?? This is only for an additional 4 weeks until bottling


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## joeswine (Jun 30, 2021)

I've used nitrogen all my wine making days, just purged nitrogen out of the tank through a pressure hose.
No problems ever.


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 1, 2021)

a “how much” from the vinters club/ I do not use argon yet:
1) inject slowly near the level where the wine is, ,,, your goal is to minimize mixing, ,,, seems it would be useful to put a basic stainless ball in a tube flow meter in line for a number.
2) when the head space is as full as possible you will feel a temperature change at the mouth of the carboy, ,,, expanding gas is a refrigerant
3) plug the carboy with a solid stopper, 


Keiyh said:


> I decided this would be the best answer for my headspace. See picture. How much and how often do you need to add?? This is only for an additional 4 weeks until bottling


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