# To Oak or Not To Oak



## justsipn (Feb 1, 2021)

I understand that oaking a wine and how much is more on preference than anything. I'm currently aging a Chilean Malbec that has had French Oak heavy toast sticks in for two months and I will rack again next weekend, then bottle sometime after that. 

I'm then going to start a Shiraz and then shortly after that another batch of Rhubarb wine. I've purchased both french medium plus sticks for the Shiraz and American oak medium sticks that I'm thinking about using in the Rhubarb. These wines will be in the carboy's aging for much longer. Possibly as much as a year.

Questions:

a). Is there any wine that you would NOT age with oak?

b). Does anyone have experience with oaking a country wine like Rhubarb?

Since I am so new to wine making and really have never oaked a wine before other than my current Malbec that I haven't tasted since I added the sticks, I'm really in the dark as to how long one should have the sticks in the wine. When I think about commercial wineries, they age their wines in oak barrels for a very long time. (years sometimes). I would also think that a new oak barrel would add way more oak flavor and aroma than sticks. 

So, is there a fear of oaking too much with these wines?

Thanks,


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## VinesnBines (Feb 1, 2021)

Most white grape wines are not oaked, Chardonnay and Viognier being the exception. I would NOT oak Rhubarb. I've never tried oaking fruit wines so someone else can give you advice on fruits. I only oak my red grape wines. 

You certainly can over oak a wine. You should go by the recommendations of the wine stick packaging. Most of all I encourage you to taste your wine. If you don't taste it, you can really overdo the oak that may take a long time to smooth out or need to be blended to be drinkable. 

Barrels and all oak will eventfully become neutral. A new barrel will be far more oaky than a used barrel. Many wineries use neutral barrels to allow the wine to develop without more oak flavor being added to the wine. Or neutral for white wines that don't need or benefit from oak. 

Many folks have more oak experience than me so they can add or or offer different opinions.


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## justsipn (Feb 1, 2021)

VinesnBines said:


> Most white grape wines are not oaked, Chardonnay and Viognier being the exception. I would NOT oak Rhubarb. I've never tried oaking fruit wines so someone else can give you advice on fruits. I only oak my red grape wines.
> 
> You certainly can over oak a wine. You should go by the recommendations of the wine stick packaging. Most of all I encourage you to taste your wine. If you don't taste it, you can really overdo the oak that may take a long time to smooth out or need to be blended to be drinkable.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. So, when you oak your red wines, how long do you typically leave the sticks in? I know it's more based on preference and how it tastes, but I'm looking for more of a general guidance here. I don't know if people leave them in for 1-2 months or a year. I don't remember seeing any guidance on this on the packaging, but I probably didn't read that carefully.

Thanks again.


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## CDrew (Feb 1, 2021)

You can over-oak for sure. Especially with toasts above medium. BTDT In 2018 I used M+ oak cubes at the highest recommended rate and have regretted it ever since. The oak flavor does mellow over time, and the over oaked 2018 is finally drinkable, but it's been a long haul. The medium plus had this unpleasant campfire quality that lasted a long time. Literally for a year, I thought I would have to pour out 10 cases of wine.

I have learned that more tannic wine like Syrah can take a lot more oak than less tannic wine like say Zinfandel. My advice is to go easy until you know what you like. I typically use Medium toast oak for 2-3 months and then taste. If it needs more oak, you can always use more cubes or staves later.

But if you go over, you will be waiting a very long time to drink your wine. For sure, you should taste your Malbec now, before going forward with another wine. It is an individual taste thing, but you'll have a broader appreciating audience for your product if it isn't overwhelming.

I have come to rely on the StaVin cubes of toasted oak, then use the calculator on their website and aim for 25-45% "new oak" equivalent. It's been much more satisfactory.

And, I like wine stix too. 1 stick per carboy (which is typically 6.5 gallons for me), and leave for 3 months. With the stix, I like the fact you can tie the stick to the bung, then you can extract the stix without racking.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2021)

Information on how much oak to use can be tough to find, and as stated above, the wine you're oaking and your tastes matter.

Staves and spirals are relatively easy -- my understanding is they are designed for 5 gallons of wine and most folks leave them in 3 months. However, after the first month, taste the wine, then taste it every week or 2 after that. You _can _over-oak wine and aging may not fix it -- my b-in-l overoaked a chardonnay and at the 5 year mark it tasted like the bar we were sitting at.

For cubes, I found a reference that said to use 2 oz/5 gallons, and this worked out for me. However, I'm going check the StaVin site that @CDrew recommended.

The only fruit wine I'd oak is elderberry, as it has heavy, red-grape like qualities.

However, if you want to experiment, make 2 gallons or rhubarb. To 1 gallon add 1/2 oz oak cubes. Taste the wine weekly and pull the cubes when you think it's enough. Bulk age both gallons another 3 months (you'll probably get sediment from the oak), then bottle. Bottle age at least 6 months, then taste side-by-side.

Note: Wine doesn't have convection currents and my experience is the wine surrounding the oak cubes will have a much heavier oak flavor than the wine away from the cubes. Gently stir to mix the wine before tasting, and realize if you have any sediment, you'll stir it up.

BTW, the oak adjuncts _can _be re-used, but are not effective. Last year I put 6 oz medium toast Hungarian cubes in a 54 liter barrel for 3 months. I removed them, dried them well, and soaked briefly in K-meta. My son used all 6 oz in a kit Shiraz for 3 months ... the wine took on some oak character, but could have used more.


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## justsipn (Feb 2, 2021)

@CDrew @winemaker81 

Thanks for the great input. I've had heavy toasted french oak in my Malbec for two months and am going to rack it this weekend, taste it and probably take out the oak. Since it's only been two months and it's a red wine, I'm hoping I didn't over do it. I'm assuming if I did, it can't be WAY over done.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2021)

justsipn said:


> @CDrew @winemaker81Thanks for the great input. I've had heavy toasted french oak in my Malbec for two months and am going to rack it this weekend, taste it and probably take out the oak. Since it's only been two months and it's a red wine, I'm hoping I didn't over do it. I'm assuming if I did, it can't be WAY over done.


Nope! Oak can be overdone. When using higher toast levels, taste more frequently. It's easier to remove the oak from the wine than to remove the oak *flavor *from the wine.


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## Kitchen (Feb 3, 2021)

Just an FYI, I have found that the oak flavor will mellow out a bit after a month or two you rack it off of the oak. The trick is being able to anticipate how much the flavor will pull back after it is removed from the oak and over oak by just that amount. 

Hard skill to perfect needless to say, especially since it varies by what type of oak you use.

This season I used heavy toasted French oak in a wine and racked it thinking the flavor was just too intense. Two months later, the flavor mellowed out to be just too little.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 3, 2021)

@Kitchen, your experiences match my own. Have you tried oaking, let the wine bulk age for a couple of months, then oak more if required? At first blush, this appears to be a feasible solution.


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## Kitchen (Feb 3, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Kitchen, your experiences match my own. Have you tried oaking, let the wine bulk age for a couple of months, then oak more if required? At first blush, this appears to be a feasible solution.



No I have not tried that, yet, although not sure if I will. I dont want to get too crazy with repeat oaking since I know it is an easy way to ruin a wine.

Speaking of oak, yesterday I tasted practically the same wine, one store in a small 8 gallon barrel and another in a 3 gallon carboy with two different kinds of oak. Both wines are from the same batch, a field blend, only the barrel is 3:1 free run to pressed and the carboy is 1:4 free run to pressed. After three months and about 1.5 bottles of wine evaporating out of the barrel, the barreled wine is really starting to develop a nice concentrated flavor with a better mouthfeel and is getting noticeably darker. The oak is still not there yet, and I feel I can continue for another 4 or 5 months in the barrel. (Yes, I am topping off once a month.)

The wine in the carboy is developing nicely, just it feels lighter in the mouth and is still the same shade of red. Kind of interesting how much difference storing wine in a wood barrel makes.


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## Raptor99 (Feb 4, 2021)

I have tried a light oaking in several fruit wines using medium toast oak chips. I have used 3 grams per gallon, so I am being cautious to not over oak. Normally we associate oak with red/dark wines, but since chardonnay is oaked I thought I'd try in in some pear wine. I liked the result. Blueberry is very nice with a bit of oak. I have just finished racking some cherry wine of oak chips, and the flavor is very nice right how, so I think it will be even better after some bulk aging. I left the oak chips in for a month, and I wonder if they become depleted after a while so that I can just leave them in there. By using a very small amount of oak chips, I can avoid over oaking.

If I am going to oak, I leave out or reduce the tannin that I normally add to some fruit wines, such as pear. In the end it's all about balancing the flavors and mouthfeel.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 4, 2021)

For concept testing there is another option, one can extract oak in grain alcohol and do a series of dosage trials. 
I have a Canadian product called Sinatin oak extract that appears a commercial version. It doesn’t say anything about what species/ toast.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 5, 2021)

Raptor99 said:


> Normally we associate oak with red/dark wines, but since chardonnay is oaked I thought I'd try in in some pear wine.


Prior to reading your post, I would not have considered oaking most fruits, as my goal with fruit wines is the fruit taste. However, It appears your oak usage is an accent, not a significant flavor component.

You have piqued my interest.

I use 2 oz / 57 g for 5 US gallons, and leave the oak for 3 months. This is 11 g/gallon, so your ratio is 1/4 of what I use, and you're using oak for 1/3 the time. One caveat -- the differences in surface area between chips and cubes makes it difficult to directly compare, but we can guesstimate.

My experience is that for cubes, the oak essence is mostly used up by the 3rd month. My son & I did an experiment -- I put 6 oz Hungarian oak cubes in a 54 liter barrel for 3 months. Took 'em out, dried them, sulfited, then added all 6 oz to 5 gallons of Shiraz for 3 months. The end result was the Shiraz was lightly oaked, e.g., by using 3 times as much we got half the result of fresh cubes, so ~1/6 "goodness" was left in the cubes. Overall, the experiment was a success, but we'll not repeat it -- used cubes go in the smoker!

Chips may be consumed faster due to the greater surface area/volume. I usually make 5+ gallon batches, so I'd try 1/2 oz cubes, which matches your ratio. It may take longer than a month to get the same taste, but taste is personal so after a month I'd taste weekly.


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## justsipn (Feb 7, 2021)

We racked our Malbec yesterday and took the oak out. We definitely didn’t over oak. It was in for just short of 2 months. We had two bottles separated to top off with when racking. Did a taste test between the two. We liked the oaked better. 

Very happy with how it turned out.


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## justsipn (Feb 8, 2021)

I just received some more oak sticks. I now see the package says to use one stick for a minimum of 3 months. I used two sticks for two months. 

Oh well. It worked


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