# 2018 Grape Season Underway



## pgentile

Just reserved 8 lugs of Pinotage from South Africa via Gino Pintos in South Jersey. Grapes are due in the last week of March. Still deciding what to due from Chile in April. Maybe another carmenere, I just opened last weekend a bottle of 2 year old carmenere that never went through MLF and it is turning into a very good wine. Several months ago it still tasted young but now the upfront fruit and sharpness has developed nicely. 

Good luck everyone with your 2018 grapes and wines.


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## zadvocate

I decided to do buckets (mostly)
Chilean Juice Chardonnay
Chilean Juice Vigioner w/ some syrah grapes to make a blush from the mother in law
Chilean Juice Carmenere with some syrah grapes.

I am hoping the Carmenere works out ok.


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## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Just reserved 8 lugs of Pinotage from South Africa via Gino Pintos in South Jersey. Grapes are due in the last week of March.


 Your gonna need to grab that crusher at some point soon. Don’t think I’m getting any earlier S. African so can’t do it on pickup day. 
But if mine I’d want it before crush in case you would be doing any maintenance. I haven’t touched it. Crusher is currently at our shop in NE Philly. Between Northeast and south Philly, bucks county and jersey I’m all over the damn place so meeting up somewhere is always a possibility too.


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## pgentile

I'm very flexible schedule-wise. I'll touch base with you next week and see what friday brings. Can't thank you enough.


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## Ajmassa

Sounds good. Just to be talking about grape selection/pickup/orders is amazing. Spring is sneaking up on me and I’m nowhere close to being ready!
Need to rack and bottle last years Chilean-and then transport 25gals and the rest of my entire setup across state lines!
Thinking about going back to my ‘steady eddy ‘ RC-212 this spring. Rc212 gets a bad rap being needy/h2s prone, but I never had an issue and use to pitch religiously. I would also like to experiment with diff Malo but won’t. VP-41 I’ve used 4x now. All successful and all co-inoculated after fermentation kicked off. Gotta start thinking about all this stuff man. Gotta order up some freshies and check inventory.


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## pgentile

Ouch on the moving part, but it will be worth the effort. I'll be sticking with RC-212 with reds this year as well. I tried 3 different Malo's the last two years VP-41 was the best.

You got a lot going on this spring, good luck with getting freshies.


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## Ajmassa

Actually “moving” in and all the wine stuff will be like a break for me. Been renovating the place myself on nights and weekends. While demoing the laundry area I found more things I didn’t like so I ripped out EVERYTHING. Even the floor and walls. And a laundry room has essentially EVERY DAMN MECHANICAL KNOWN TO MAN NEEDED. And already butting heads with the township since they seem clueless. 
I want to get a barrel for this batch but I’m only making 6 gal this spring. So I think one of those 20L Vadai barrels is in order. I’ll cut my teeth into the barrel world with a little guy before buying a larger one.


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## pgentile

Good luck with all that. Bought the place I live in now in 2000, three story row, was going to be some minor renovations to make it livable, ended up gutting to the rafters and common walls. Took a year to renovate and replace everything, I did about 50% of the work while working a full time job. Glad I did it once, never want to do it again. Going downtown for permits was the worst.

I'm still vacillating on a barrel, but I think the 20l is a good way to start


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Just reserved 8 lugs of Pinotage from South Africa via Gino Pintos in South Jersey. Grapes are due in the last week of March. Still deciding what to due from Chile in April. Maybe another carmenere, I just opened last weekend a bottle of 2 year old carmenere that never went through MLF and it is turning into a very good wine. Several months ago it still tasted young but now the upfront fruit and sharpness has developed nicely.
> 
> Good luck everyone with your 2018 grapes and wines.



Stil debating on how much grapes to buy. Being 18 lb lugs it turns out to be $2.00/lb. I'm definately doing a Malbec and Camenere juice with at least one lug of grapes from Chili. I'm thinking of doing a Pinotage but have been advised to try one first which I haven't done yet. I'm trying to aviod 2 trips to Harford so I'm waiting to get a confirmation of the delivery dates to decide.


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## gitmo234

I'm going to look for some Sangiovese and I'm debating on what else to try. Seems I may need a small crusher


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Actually “moving” in and all the wine stuff will be like a break for me. Been renovating the place myself on nights and weekends. While demoing the laundry area I found more things I didn’t like so I ripped out EVERYTHING. Even the floor and walls. And a laundry room has essentially EVERY DAMN MECHANICAL KNOWN TO MAN NEEDED. And already butting heads with the township since they seem clueless.
> I want to get a barrel for this batch but I’m only making 6 gal this spring. So I think one of those 20L Vadai barrels is in order. I’ll cut my teeth into the barrel world with a little guy before buying a larger one.



I have a 6.6 gallon think it's nice size for doing a bucket and couple of lugs. The next one I'm trying to get is an 8 gallon but everyone is out of them. I have 10 gallons of Norton dying to get oaked plus this fall I plan on doing 10 gallon batches. I have a Zin in the barrel that's just about done. If the 8's don't come available soon I'll just put a portion of the Norton in it.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Stil debating on how much grapes to buy. Being 18 lb lugs it turns out to be $2.00/lb. I'm definately doing a Malbec and Camenere juice with at least one lug of grapes from Chili. I'm thinking of doing a Pinotage but have been advised to try one first which I haven't done yet. I'm trying to aviod 2 trips to Harford so I'm waiting to get a confirmation of the delivery dates to decide.


I forgot the SA lugs were 20lbs and the Chilean 18lbs, I need to call back and double my order tomorrow. If you don't want to take a risk with the pinotage my SA cab sauv from last spring is very good already but then again cab sauv grapes will be available from Chile as well.


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> ... so I'm waiting to get a confirmation of the delivery dates to decide.


Usually the confirmation dates come after the "last day to order" date, unfortunately. For that reason I went with a lug of Merlot grapes to go with a Cab Sauv bucket, since the Cab Sauv grapes historically come a week or so later. But it is a guessing game at best. Safest bet is to order all grapes, but the cost in the Spring makes it hard to justify it when they are more reasonably priced in the Fall.

But then again, if you have unlimited funds available to you, why not spread out the fermenting season a bit.


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## pgentile

gitmo234 said:


> I'm going to look for some Sangiovese and I'm debating on what else to try. Seems I may need a small crusher


I think I'm going to come back sangiovese grapes this fall, they were my first all grape batch 3 years ago unfortunately I liked it so much none survived past 1.5 years.. I did do a few sangio juice buckets this past fall. Always a good choice.


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## Ajmassa

gitmo234 said:


> I'm going to look for some Sangiovese and I'm debating on what else to try. Seems I may need a small crusher



spring grapes can be limited. Even though they grow Sangiovese notnsure it’s sold to us. I did see Sangio juice buckets tho. I just did a big Sangio batch for the 1st time in sept. Much lighter than I realized. I would have used more cab and merlot in hindsight. IMO I would get grapes Chile or S. Africa are known for. And save Sangio for fall. 
Why get a ‘small’ crusher? You are the guy who was into bitcoin early correct? Go big and Get yourself a brand new motorized crusher/destemmer!



mainshipfred said:


> I have a 6.6 gallon think it's nice size for doing a bucket and couple of lugs.



Juice bucket with its own lug or 2 (or 3 or 4) is a great way to save a few bucks. Last May I made both. Difference was not drastic but you can definitely tell which is the all-grape. 
I know I want 1 smaller 5-6.5 gal barrel and another 13 gal to pair with my demis. And then In a couple yrs I’ll make all that useless and get a VC 150L-200L tank and 30gal barrel!


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## gitmo234

It's mostly a space issue. I'm a northern virginia townhome with a growing family so my wine making space is tightening up


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Stil debating on how much grapes to buy. Being 18 lb lugs it turns out to be $2.00/lb. I'm definately doing a Malbec and Camenere juice with at least one lug of grapes from Chili. I'm thinking of doing a Pinotage but have been advised to try one first which I haven't done yet. I'm trying to aviod 2 trips to Harford so I'm waiting to get a confirmation of the delivery dates to decide.



Have you called them? In speaking with Kevin last fall, I think he said they used to order extra grapes but no longer do that. Said they still order extra buckets though.


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## gitmo234

Boatboy24 said:


> Have you called them? In speaking with Kevin last fall, I think he said they used to order extra grapes but no longer do that. Said they still order extra buckets though.



Have or can you notice a difference in the product from a juice bucket vs one from a bucket of crushed grapes? I've read in some places that the juice buckets could have less of a body


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## Boatboy24

gitmo234 said:


> Have or can you notice a difference in the product from a juice bucket vs one from a bucket of crushed grapes? I've read in some places that the juice buckets could have less of a body



You'll pay more, but you'll have a much better wine from grapes than you would from just juice.


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## ceeaton

gitmo234 said:


> Have or can you notice a difference in the product from a juice bucket vs one from a bucket of crushed grapes? I've read in some places that the juice buckets could have less of a body


I agree with Jim, you'll have a better wine with the grapes added to the bucket or just grapes. Adds some more tannins from the skin contact and color, in my opinion. Not sure how they extract the juice for the buckets, but I think I remember someone (@ibglowin?) posting that they extract the juice using steam? I could have been dreaming, much like I have for most of my life.


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## Ajmassa

I Have yet to make wine from frozen must but I imagine they are a much much better finished product. The prices should the answer the question as well. 
Fresh juice pail -$60 to yield 6 gal
Frozen must. $400-$600 to yield same amount. (Assuming x2 5gal pails would give about 6gal finished)
Juice pails aren’t available in a higher grade either


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Have you called them? In speaking with Kevin last fall, I think he said they used to order extra grapes but no longer do that. Said they still order extra buckets though.



I'll preorder the juice and grapes. I remember from the earlier email that they still don't have all the delivery dates yet.


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## mainshipfred

gitmo234 said:


> Have or can you notice a difference in the product from a juice bucket vs one from a bucket of crushed grapes? I've read in some places that the juice buckets could have less of a body



So far as I know there are few places that sell frozen must with the skins and they are quite expensive. As most agree all grape is the way to go but costly with the Southern Hemisphere harvest. I'll do a juice and grape combo for economy reasons but feel the juice portion will be lacking something.


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## heatherd

I do fresh juice buckets for whites. I've done an all-grape fresh white batch from Seyval Blanc because that's what Harford had on hand the year I was buying stuff.

For reds, I have done them a few ways and like the results:
-Lug of fresh grapes + fresh juice bucket (most often what I do)
-All fresh grapes
-Big jar of Mosti Mondiali grapes + fresh juice bucket
-6 gallons frozen must from M&M + 6 gallon fresh juice bucket for a cabernet sauvignon batch

Note that Harford has a narrower selection of fresh grapes than they do of fresh juice. I tend to pick the varietals based on what grapes I can get, and then match the juice to them. This is more true of the spring harvest than the fall but still a consideration.


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## pgentile

@Ajmassa5983, I was hoping to hook up to trade for the crusher today, but work has gotten in the way, any chance you have a window of opportunity this coming sunday I could stop by or meet somewhere? If not I could do something at lunchtime any day next week.


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## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> @Ajmassa5983, I was hoping to hook up to trade for the crusher today, but work has gotten in the way, any chance you have a window of opportunity this coming sunday I could stop by or meet somewhere? If not I could do something at lunchtime any day next week.



I have tons goin on with a move scheduled for tomorrow. But Sunday I can most likely make it happen since I’ll definitely be at the shop at some point (where the crusher is currently). 
I’ll pm you later on to make it happen. Unfortunately I have yet to bottle for the Cab swap. But I’ve got a bottle of Bravado with your name on it.


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## pgentile

I can make anytime work. Thanks again. Good luck tomorrow.


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## mainshipfred

Placed my order:

South African Cab Sauv bucket and 2 lugs
Chilean Malbec bucket and 2 lugs
Chilean Carmenere bucket and one lug
Chilean Merlot bucket - Not a huge Merlot fan but want to have it for blending

Unfortunately it will probably be 2 trips


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## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Placed my order:
> 
> South African Cab Sauv bucket and 2 lugs
> Chilean Malbec bucket and 2 lugs
> Chilean Carmenere bucket and one lug
> Chilean Merlot bucket - Not a huge Merlot fan but want to have it for blending
> 
> Unfortunately it will probably be 2 trips


I'm guessing 3 trips...


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Placed my order:
> 
> South African Cab Sauv bucket and 2 lugs
> Chilean Malbec bucket and 2 lugs
> Chilean Carmenere bucket and one lug
> Chilean Merlot bucket - Not a huge Merlot fan but want to have it for blending
> 
> Unfortunately it will probably be 2 trips



If I get around to putting my order in, let's carpool.


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## Ajmassa

No menu for Chilean yet for me. Though they said they’d still start an order since “they know” even if it’s not official yet. 
South African is posted. 3 different cabs and a Pinotage. 
Breedes River Cab
Olifants River Cab
Stellenbosch district Cab. 
May do an impulse Cab. Those regions may as well be on Mars tho. No clue. Need prices to make the call.


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## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> No menu for Chilean yet for me. Though they said they’d still start an order since “they know” even if it’s not official yet.
> South African is posted. 3 different cabs and a Pinotage.
> Breedes River Cab
> Olifants River Cab
> Stellenbosch district Cab.
> May do an impulse Cab. Those regions may as well be on Mars tho. No clue. Need prices to make the call.



I know Stellenbosch, but am not familiar w/ the other two.


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## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> I know Stellenbosch, but am not familiar w/ the other two.



Well no better way to learn about em than to make one!


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## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> I'm guessing 3 trips...





Boatboy24 said:


> If I get around to putting my order in, let's carpool.



Absolutely, you will have your choice of trips according to Craig.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> No menu for Chilean yet for me. Though they said they’d still start an order since “they know” even if it’s not official yet.
> South African is posted. 3 different cabs and a Pinotage.
> Breedes River Cab
> Olifants River Cab
> Stellenbosch district Cab.
> May do an impulse Cab. Those regions may as well be on Mars tho. No clue. Need prices to make the call.



When you're menu does come up could you post it. Just curious what your source offers and costs.


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## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> I know Stellenbosch, but am not familiar w/ the other two.



Did you make the Stellenbosch by chance?



mainshipfred said:


> When you're menu does come up could you post it. Just curious what your source offers and costs.


Will do. Generally they are pretty similar to Harford. The organization and website couldn’t be more different tho. http://ginopinto.com/south-african-grape-region/


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## pgentile

My 2017 South African Cab was from either Breede or Stellenback, when I get home later I'll find the photos of the lugs. It is one of my best wines to date and it's only 11 months old.

Just spoke to Gino's( by the way Gino Pinto himself passed away this past fall) the list for 2018 will be the same as 2017. Prices for 2018 are not calculated yet and are mainly going up due to the higher cost of importing.

I increased my Pinotage order to 11 lugs and reserved 7 Carmenere and 4 Syrah from Chile.

Here's the 2017 price list.

http://ginopinto.com/current-home-winemaking-grape-juice-prices/


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## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Did you make the Stellenbosch by chance?



Nope. But I've had commercial wines from there.


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## mainshipfred

Here's the 2017 price list.

Sounds like a great place to buy. I went through their catalog bottle pricing is really good. 

Will do. Generally they are pretty similar to Harford. The organization and website couldn’t be more different tho. http://ginopinto.com/south-african-grape-region/

I like the way they distinguish where the different SA grapes are coming from. I wonder why neeither of them do the same for the Chileans.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I like the way they distinguish where the different SA grapes are coming from. I wonder why neeither of them do the same for the Chileans.


They do. The website isn’t the most user friendly. 
The Curico Valley is the Chilean. They list wineries of the region too. My (our) Chilean from last year are on that list too. Crurrea Albano

Chilean grape info: http://ginopinto.com/wine-grapes-juice/chilean-grape-regions/


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## pgentile

Unfortunately the photo of my SA lugs does not help.


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## ceeaton

But your PUC NL0026 code is enough since SA freely publishes it online here:

http://www.daff.gov.za/daffweb3/Bra...fety/Plant-Health/Exporting-from-SA/Producers


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## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> But your PUC NL0026 code is enough since SA freely publishes it online here:
> 
> http://www.daff.gov.za/daffweb3/Bra...fety/Plant-Health/Exporting-from-SA/Producers
> 
> View attachment 46907



Good find Craig


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## pgentile

Well I was completely wrong my grapes were from Olifantsrivier. I guess that translates: Elephant River? Nice find.


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## Boatboy24

Just placed my order with Harford. 8 lugs of Carmenere and 1 lug of Petite Verdot. Going for a 'Purple Angel' type wine. Purple Angel is 92/8% each and every year, it seems. I didn't want to come up w/ much more than 10 gallons, so that's why I settled on the ratio. Going with a field blend. I'm hoping this is much better than my 2016 Chileans.


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## mainshipfred

Get rhat crusher ready. I'm picking mine up on Saturday. But I'll only have 5 lugs to crush.


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Get rhat crusher ready. I'm picking mine up on Saturday. But I'll only have 5 lugs to crush.



Saturday!!?? Isn't it a little early?


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Saturday!!?? Isn't it a little early?


Sorry, I meant picking my crusher destemmer Saturday. Or at least looking at it.


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Sorry, I meant picking my crusher destemmer Saturday. Or at least looking at it.



You scared the bejesus outta me!! 

Checking out that press too?


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## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Just placed my order with Harford. 8 lugs of Carmenere and 1 lug of Petite Verdot. Going for a 'Purple Angel' type wine. Purple Angel is 92/8% each and every year, it seems. I didn't want to come up w/ much more than 10 gallons, so that's why I settled on the ratio. Going with a field blend. I'm hoping this is much better than my 2016 Chileans.



Besides upping the Pinotage to 11 lugs I reserved 8 carmenere and 3 syrah. Field blend here on the Chilean as well.

Gino Pinto 2018 prices are posted:

http://ginopinto.com/south-african-chilean-wine-grape-juice-prices-march-2018/


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## heatherd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well no better way to learn about em than to make one!


.....or all...


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> You scared the bejesus outta me!!
> 
> Checking out that press too?



Sorry about that and yes I will be looking at the press as well. The interior basket is 12" D and 14.5" H. Mine is 10" D.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Besides upping the Pinotage to 11 lugs I reserved 8 carmenere and 3 syrah. Field blend here on the Chilean as well.
> 
> Gino Pinto 2018 prices are posted:
> 
> http://ginopinto.com/south-african-chilean-wine-grape-juice-prices-march-2018/



Prices at Harford are similar. Harford wins SA Gino Pinto wins Chilean.


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## baron4406

Not terribly impressed from juice buckets anymore so I'm gonna try something radical this year. Get a juice bucket and freeze it, siphon off as much as juice as i can. Probably have around 4.5gals of concentrated juice-then two crushed lugs of grapes. Balance everything and see what happens.


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## mainshipfred

baron4406 said:


> Not terribly impressed from juice buckets anymore so I'm gonna try something radical this year. Get a juice bucket and freeze it, siphon off as much as juice as i can. Probably have around 4.5gals of concentrated juice-then two crushed lugs of grapes. Balance everything and see what happens.



I think I like where you are going but I think I am a little unclear on how to siphon off frozen must.


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## Ajmassa

I’ve been through a bunch of different options for spring grapes now. It’s becoming the norm for me- to change my plan weekl and whichever plan I’m at when ordering time comes is the winner.
Falls field blend I did was fun but is limiting. New plan is to make one single varietal per season and blending in a few years. Multi vintage and multi country blends. As well as single varietals bottled. Can you say ‘Blending Party’?
Going Malbec split into 2 ferments. Different yeast and different malo. Aging separate. Combining most down the line. Thinking this would give me some more complexity. That’s the plan (for today)


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’ve been through a bunch of different options for spring grapes now. It’s becoming the norm for me- to change my plan weekl and whichever plan I’m at when ordering time comes is the winner.



Good plan and don't question yourself afterwards.


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## baron4406

mainshipfred said:


> I think I like where you are going but I think I am a little unclear on how to siphon off frozen must.


Here is what inspired me to try this. I also grabbed a cheap wine kit for the "leftovers"


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## Boatboy24

baron4406 said:


> Here is what inspired me to try this. I also grabbed a cheap wine kit for the "leftovers"




Pretty interesting. Feel bad for the guy, getting a Zin bucket at only 20 brix though.


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## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Pretty interesting. Feel bad for the guy, getting a Zin bucket at only 20 brix though.



He’s actually a member here now. @winepittsburgh 
Has a pretty interesting website and YouTube channel as well. 
Not sure if you recall a video shared here a while back demonstrating how to crush and destem using the milkcrate in bins - but that’s also from his YouTube channel. 
That ‘freezing out the water from juice pails’ idea is clever as hell.


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## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> That ‘freezing out the water from juice pails’ idea is clever as hell.



It really is. Nice way to pick up a few brix without adding sugar. And while the pH changed, it didn't move too much - still in a range where I wouldn't mess with it.


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## mainshipfred

It is a creative idea, sure would be nice to know how it turned out. Easy to measure the ph and brix but I wonder how it affected the body.


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## mainshipfred

Well I bit the bullet. Just picked up a manual crusher/destemer and another press. The press is older but larger then the one I have. I know, it didn't happen because no pics but I have to leave for wine class now so if you don't believe me I'll send pics later.


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## stickman

This concept has been around for a long time. I've heard of people using this technique (when the weather doesn't cooperate) with late harvest grapes to produce a faux ice wine. If you freeze the juice completely and let it thaw carefully, you can pull off juice at 40 brix. This could be used as an advanced technique to make your own concentrate for back sweetening. I've never had any reason to use the method, but it's there if you need it. With California must, we're usually considering watering down the brix.


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## pgentile

This freezing method is interesting except for me it is off the table due to not having a freezer big enough for buckets, Side by side frig/freezer is too narrow.


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## pgentile

Getting prepped for the Pinotage. Just ordered VP41 and all necessary nutrients and adjuncts. Thinking of trying BM4X4 for the first time.(any words of wisdom on BM4X4 would be greatly appreciated) Been reading everything I can find on the grape, good write up here: https://winemakermag.com/1121-pinotage-varietal-focus

Seems are warmer ferment will be the approach: "Warmer fermentations are reserved for the best and boldest reds, where fermentation temperatures push upwards to 90 °F (32 °C), and most of the berries are crushed, allowing for maximum extraction of tannins and color. One winemaker I consulted said that the optimal temperature for high sugar content (25 °Brix and above) is 27 to 30 °C (81 to 86 °F). This helps prevent the solvent-like characters that Pinotage can easily develop"

Will be scrubbing the crusher later.


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## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Thinking of trying BM4X4 for the first time.(any words of wisdom on BM4X4 would be greatly appreciated)



FYI, Lallamand's website seems to not recommend BM4x4 for MLB pitched the traditional way (after primary fermentation), they like co-inoculation better.

*
http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-...product-detail/9/wine-yeasts/11/lalvin-bm4x4/

Fermentation Speed*
Moderate

_*MLF Compatibility
Not really recommended*_

*Nitrogen Needs*
High

*Alcohol Tolerance*
15 %

*Volatile Acidity*
Moderate

*SO₂ Production*
Moderate

*Max. Temperature*
28 °C

*Min. Temperature*
16 °C

*H₂S 170ppm*
Low

*H₂S 60ppm*
Moderate
_*
Suitability for co-Inoculation
Very recommended*_

*Acetaldehyde Production*
High


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## pgentile

I've been co-inoculating my last few batches so that's ok, But it does concern me when both the yeast and grape can tend towards Acetaldehyde.


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## ceeaton

You could always just bounce around their website and find a lower acetaldehyde match. I see that http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-...oduct-detail/9/wine-yeasts/15/lalvin-icv-d21/ seems to fit the bill. Not sure how it works for a Pinotage, but seems to work for about every other red grape, and works well with MLB whether co-inoculated or added post ferment.


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## mainshipfred

All I need is grapes. Also raised the lid on the chest freezer.


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## JohnT

Just placed my order for Chilean grapes. I am doing a field blended of cab/merlot 85/15. I have had a lot of good results with this blend.

The Chilean crush is much smaller than the fall crush (California). I limit making wine to just myself, my brother, and my niece/nephew. This is because of the price of grapes, lack of capacity, and (most important) not having the energy or money to have TWO major crushes in one year.

Now I have found out that the SA grapes come in in March. I have to keep this very Quiet. If my brother finds out about it, I will be doing 3 crushes a year! 

How are the SA grapes? What numbers have you folks been realizing?


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## mainshipfred

Doing SA for the first time this year. The reports indicate there has been a 3 year drought affecting size of the grapes and their smallest yield in years. But some also say this may positively influence the quality.


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## mainshipfred

What I'm buying: 
SA Cab Sauv bucket and 2 lugs, bucket Chilean Malbec and 2 lugs, bucket Chilean Carmenere and 1 lug, 1 bucket of Merlot no lugs.

What I plan to do:
Ferment the Cab and Malbec separately and crush and freeze the Carmenere lug as well as the Carmenere and Merlot bucket.
After the Cab and Malbec finish do a light press and combine the skins with the Carmenere skins and juice and ferment.
Once this is done again lightly press and add all the skins to the Merlot.
After that I may either lightly press for the merlot then fully press the remainder for a smaller batch of the blend.

A lot of extra work but was trying to make the best of the high cost of Spring grapes.


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## Boatboy24

@mainshipfred : if you want them, you're welcome to my Carmenere/PV skins after I press.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> @mainshipfred : if you want them, you're welcome to my Carmenere/PV skins after I press.



Sure, that would be great. Maybe after the final press with all the skins we could share the bounty or share a second run if you were interested.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> @mainshipfred : if you want them, you're welcome to my Carmenere/PV skins after I press.



I'm starting to get a pretty good relationship with the winemaker at Pearmund, Effingham and Vint Hill. Plus I started another project a Chrysalis this week. I should be in good shape for the fall grapes. Should be in a different thread but I plan on PV, CF Petite Manseng and hopefuly a Tannat or what ever I can get my hands on this fall. You may want to keep that in mind. Also there is a new winery openning in April called Fleetwood. It's in the Brambleton area and the same winemaker is also making it for them.


----------



## pgentile

JohnT said:


> Just placed my order for Chilean grapes. I am doing a field blended of cab/merlot 85/15. I have had a lot of good results with this blend.
> 
> The Chilean crush is much smaller than the fall crush (California). I limit making wine to just myself, my brother, and my niece/nephew. This is because of the price of grapes, lack of capacity, and (most important) not having the energy or money to have TWO major crushes in one year.
> 
> Now I have found out that the SA grapes come in in March. I have to keep this very Quiet. If my brother finds out about it, I will be doing 3 crushes a year!
> 
> How are the SA grapes? What numbers have you folks been realizing?



I'd have to look up my numbers from last year's SA cab but I believe brix was around 26, ph 3.56 and TA 6.5. It's going to be one year old in two weeks and it is one of my best wines to date. This year I'm trying the Pinotage.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I'd have to look up my numbers from last year's SA cab but I believe brix was around 26, ph 3.56 and TA 6.5. It's going to be one year old in two weeks and it is one of my best wines to date. This year I'm trying the Pinotage.



Don't remember, was the Cab all grape?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Doing SA for the first time this year. The reports indicate there has been a 3 year drought affecting size of the grapes and their smallest yield in years. But some also say this may positively influence the quality.



I'm sure there is a fine line with this somewhere, but typically don't dryer years produce grapes with more sugar? And better wines? But I know the drought there is getting very serious.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Don't remember, was the Cab all grape?


Yup 100% cab on that one.


----------



## pgentile

100% grapes that is


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I'm sure there is a fine line with this somewhere, but typically don't dryer years produce grapes with more sugar? And better wines? But I know the drought there is getting very serious.



It does plus higher phenol levels the only draw back is the smaller fruit. But if we are paying by the lb it shouldn't make any difference.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I'm starting to get a pretty good relationship with the winemaker at Pearmund, Effingham and Vint Hill. Plus I started another project a Chrysalis this week. I should be in good shape for the fall grapes. Should be in a different thread but I plan on PV, CF Petite Manseng and hopefuly a Tannat or what ever I can get my hands on this fall. You may want to keep that in mind. Also there is a new winery openning in April called Fleetwood. It's in the Brambleton area and the same winemaker is also making it for them.



If I can get my hands on some Pearmund Petite Manseng grapes, I'd be very interested. Still need to go back there and get a bottle or two. 

What are you doing now over at Chrysalis?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> 100% grapes that is



Do you remember how many lbs and the volume you got?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Do you remember how many lbs and the volume you got?



6 lugs 108 lbs. end up with over 6 gls I believe. But that was with an inefficient bucket press.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> If I can get my hands on some Pearmund Petite Manseng grapes, I'd be very interested. Still need to go back there and get a bottle or two.
> 
> What are you doing now over at Chrysalis?



We're building a bread and pizza brick oven pavilion and extending the second floor deck to above the pavilion.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> 6 lugs 108 lbs. end up with over 6 gls I believe. But that was with an inefficient bucket press.



Heck, you got me thinking now. Especially since the SA grapes are the first to arrive.


----------



## pgentile

Let's hope that some these promising grapes make it across the ocean.

"The 2018 harvest will be characterised by smaller berries, lighter bunches and lower yields, however, the quality of the grapes is very promising - exceptional even"

http://www.bizcommunity.com/Article/196/786/173342.html


----------



## mainshipfred

Nice find, there have been many articles on the SA harvest, mostly pertaining to the drought. It's funny there is nothing similar about the Chilean harvest. Maybe SA takes more pride in their product. I'm thinking about adding another lug of CS to my order to have 3 lugs and a bucket.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Nice find, there have been many articles on the SA harvest, mostly pertaining to the drought. It's funny there is nothing similar about the Chilean harvest. Maybe SA takes more pride in their product. I'm thinking about adding another lug of CS to my order to have 3 lugs and a bucket.


You could do a grand experiment and order a total of 7 lugs and have one lug for the bucket and the other 6 as an all grape wine. I think your lug and a bucket will be good, but I'd bet your 6 lugs would be even better! (I like spending money belonging to others) But do use the same yeast and additives in both, that way the raw ingredients are the only big variable.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Nice find, there have been many articles on the SA harvest, mostly pertaining to the drought. It's funny there is nothing similar about the Chilean harvest. Maybe SA takes more pride in their product. I'm thinking about adding another lug of CS to my order to have 3 lugs and a bucket.



A few articles about Chilean table grapes, many from 2017, but the word seems to be mum on the 2018 Chilean wine grape harvest.


----------



## Ajmassa

SA grapes are so damn expensive man. Maybe next year. I’m not even close to being ready so the extra month for Chilean will be needed. (Got my SS double bay sink w/ drainboard tho!)
Still going with 100% Malbec plan- which is Mrs AJ’s favorite varietal- and 1 I have yet to make. Broken up into 2 separate ferments. Will allow 2 yeasts and 2 mlb’s. (Hope to learn a lot this way) Likely blending together during aging. Saving half to bottle as single varietal and half for future blends. 
Contemplating 10% of another varietal to compliment the Malbec the way cabs can be aided. But just too uninformed to know which way to turn.


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> You could do a grand experiment and order a total of 7 lugs and have one lug for the bucket and the other 6 as an all grape wine. I think your lug and a bucket will be good, but I'd bet your 6 lugs would be even better! (I like spending money belonging to others) But do use the same yeast and additives in both, that way the raw ingredients are the only big variable.



You don't know how badly I want to go with an all grape batch of the SA Cab. I'm trying to talk myself into it though. Might not be terrible hard.


----------



## mainshipfred

Contemplating 10% of another varietal to compliment the Malbec the way cabs can be aided. But just too uninformed to know which way to turn.[/QUOTE]

At this stage in wine making my pallette is clueless when it comes to blending and what complements what.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> At this stage in wine making my pallette is clueless when it comes to blending and what complements what.


Tough to know since those small additions aren’t ever printed on the labels. Sometimes you can find the winemakers notes online. I’ve only had a Malbec blend with Cab - as far as I know. But I’m sure there are French winemakers who like to add a touch of this or that to balance it out while keeping at least 85% Malbec


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Tough to know since those small additions aren’t ever printed on the labels. Sometimes you can find the winemakers notes online. I’ve only had a Malbec blend with Cab - as far as I know. But I’m sure there are French winemakers who like to add a touch of this or that to balance it out while keeping at least 85% Malbec



I've been told Merlot blends with anything, about the only thing I know. 
It may be regional but I think, at least in Virginia, the number is 75% to call it a single varietal.


----------



## pgentile

Have everything ready, just need the grapes. Have acti-ml and yeast nutrients not in photo.


----------



## Boatboy24

Hmm. Guess I should order some yeast, etc...


----------



## ceeaton

My order came in yesterday, opened it and realized I forgot to order some MLB.


----------



## GreenEnvy22

I have a feeling my 2018 will be a smaller production year, at least for grape wines.
Our 3rd kid is due Oct 9th, which is right in harvest season. So I may not be able to do much picking/pressing. 
Fruit wines are earlier in the summer, so can still do some of those, and maybe a couple grape juice buckets.
I'll try to at least do our back yard grapes.


----------



## mainshipfred

With the recent favorable reports on the SA harvest I upped my CS order to 6 lugs plus the bucket. Think I'm going to keep the bucket frozen and ferment the grapes then add the skins to the bucket. Would be nice if there were 3 weeks between SA and Chili. Not sure I have enough fermenting vessels if not. Thank goodness for the freezer.


----------



## pgentile

Sounds like a plan Fred. I called Gino Pinto's this morning they think the Pinotage will be in early next week possibly monday. SA Cab grapes are supposed to be in closer to the Chilean grapes in April. Last year I picked up my SA cab and Chilean grapes at the same time, not sure if they came in at the same or not.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Would be nice if there were 3 weeks between SA and Chili. Not sure I have enough fermenting vessels if not. Thank goodness for the freezer.



Just go with the flow man. I try to let the batch dictate my equipment instead of vice versa. 
My plans just so happen to land in basically the only volume fermentor I do not own-20gal. I need 2. Perfect excuse! 
And I found em for only $20 each on Amazon- white with smooth sides. Good to go


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Just go with the flow man. I try to let the batch dictate my equipment instead of vice versa.
> My plans just so happen to land in basically the only volume fermentor I do not own-20gal. I need 2. Perfect excuse!
> And I found em for only $20 each on Amazon- white with smooth sides. Good to go



Don't see 20's for under $28. But I have been only needing 6 gallon buckets since I split everything up and use at least 2 different yeasts sometimes 3. A bit of a pain but it's what I've been trying.


----------



## jburtner

That’s a really good idea. Ie; if you’re doing a two bucket batch use a different yeast for each and blend after fermentation for added complexity. I’ve been using that approach very effectively on some other non-wine ferments. 

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Don't see 20's for under $28. But I have been only needing 6 gallon buckets since I split everything up and use at least 2 different yeasts sometimes 3. A bit of a pain but it's what I've been trying.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002O8LDV6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Unless your partial to Brute brand. I have another size from this company. Legit can- and same food safe codes as the brutes.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002O8LDV6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> Unless your partial to Brute brand. I have another size from this company. Legit can- and same food safe codes as the brutes.



Thanks, not partial to anything as long as it works.


----------



## mainshipfred

jburtner said:


> That’s a really good idea. Ie; if you’re doing a two bucket batch use a different yeast for each and blend after fermentation for added complexity. I’ve been using that approach very effectively on some other non-wine ferments.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!
> -johann



I even split one bucket batches


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002O8LDV6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> Unless your partial to Brute brand. I have another size from this company. Legit can- and same food safe codes as the brutes.



Made in USA too. Nice find


----------



## Ajmassa

jburtner said:


> That’s a really good idea. Ie; if you’re doing a two bucket batch use a different yeast for each and blend after fermentation for added complexity. I’ve been using that approach very effectively on some other non-wine ferments.


 Hmm buckets hadn’t crossed my mind. I wonder how 6 gal of juice would do with >200lbs worth of malbec skins? I’d think pretty dang good. 
After I started looking into it I was quick to learn this ‘split and blend’ approach is actually quite common. Im also going different additions across the board- not just yeast. 
Yeast - d254 & d80 OR rc212 & renaissance Andante (non h2s and also removes about 30% malic acid on its own)
Mlb- vp41 & ch16
Tannin- will choose 2 from Booster rouge/opti-red/noblesse/ft rouge
Maybe some oak chips in one and not the other
Then different oak while aging. 
Will be interesting to see how they differ and compare to themselves as solo and then blended.


----------



## pgentile

As of today no South African grapes in yet, maybe before the weekend they said. Saturday would be perfect for pickup, but we know things usually don't work out that conveniently.


----------



## TemperanceOwl

Hi folks. What's the word on Chilean grapes and pails? I've been watching Collinwood's and juicegrape.com's websites for 2018 pricing and delivery and haven't seen anything posted yet. I don't live close to any distributors (as far as I know) so I'll need to buy from someplace that will ship it to Tennessee. 
This will be my first attempt at fresh grapes instead of fresh fruit or kits, so I haven't dealt with ordering them before.


----------



## jburtner

Hi Temp, I just put down deposit on six pails from juicegrape.com shipping to Nashville. Where in TN are you? They do have pricing and availability but I had to email them a couple times. 

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## TemperanceOwl

Thanks, Johann. I'm in Johnson City. I just emailed juice grape.com. I thought I emailed them a few days ago but found my note stuck in the outbox tonight.
Did they tell you when they'll ship?


----------



## jburtner

They said mid to late May shipping depending on harvest, etc. 50% deposit now then balance to ship. They also worked up an order of enzymes, fermaid o nutrient, yeast, mlb, oak dust, and opti malo to cover the grape order with additives. I already have kmeta and tannins in stock.

Not cheap but will yield maybe 100 bottles of small batch wine for about $8 and change per 750ml.

I think I’ll do less quantity in the fall but also cali grapes and maybe some pnw grapes.

Cheers!
-johann

Edit: Here's an update from their website-
http://www.juicegrape.com/tracker/articles/Spring_Harvest_Arrival_Updates
--------
The Chardonnay, Pinot Grigio, Viognier, and Sauvignon Blanc are being Harvested. Check out our video HERE. The red grapes will start to harvest at the end of March. We should see the Pinot Noir and Merlot harvest first, arriving around the first week in May, with the Carmenere, Cabernet, Cabernet Franc, Petite Verdot, Malbec, and Syrah starting to harvest a week later. You should see the later red varieties start to arrive around May 15th.
--------


----------



## Ajmassa

Reserved my grapes this morning. Kept it simple as I’m pretty much crowbarring this batch into my schedule. 

(x12) lugs of Chilean Malbec

Should be ready to rock n roll in the fall though. 
They said should start to see SA grapes trickling in next week. 
——- also to add to an earlier post on fermenter prices. Restaurant Equippers Warehouse - open to public - NSF containers
10gal - $7.99
20gal- $12.99
32gal- $16.99
Plus commercial grade strainers and “punchdown” (potato masher) for dirt cheap. If you’ve got one close by it is definitely worth a stop


----------



## jburtner

FYI - those yellow mop buckets in the pic above (sterilized and not used for anything else) work great for pressing juice. Just put a paint strainer bag into the squeezer part and wedge it over a brute can. Scoop your fermented must into it and squeeze.....

empty the bag into a separate container.

Roll your sleeves up and prepare to get a little messy on crush day. Keep a spray bottle of kmeta around and stay sterile!

Cheers and good luck to all!
-johann


----------



## pgentile

Go the call today, picking up Pinotage grapes this afternoon. Guess I'm going to have a friday night crush.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Go the call today, picking up Pinotage grapes this afternoon. Guess I'm going to have a friday night crush.



Have fun, I'm kind of jealous.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Go the call today, picking up Pinotage grapes this afternoon. Guess I'm going to have a friday night crush.


 either I was lied to or truck showed up right after I spoke with them. 



jburtner said:


> FYI - those yellow mop buckets in the pic above (sterilized and not used for anything else) work great for pressing juice.


I actually looked into that a couple years ago. It really is kinda perfect. Couldn’t do it tho—for vanity reasons lol. To quote the great GnR guitarist Slash, “it’s not just how good of a guitar player you are, it’s how cool you look while doing it!”


----------



## jburtner

Fair enough  I do have a small press which is also grape stained but the mop bucket is just easier and actually works better 

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## sour_grapes

Unfortunately, the actual pictures from @GreginND seem to have been lost into the ether, but you get the idea:



GreginND said:


> Bucket inside a bucket is just 2 5gal pails. One you drill a bunch of small holes in. Place your fruit in that and squish out the juice/wine by putting another bucket on top of it inside the bucket with holes and fruits.
> 
> I actually find a commercial yellow mop bucket with the mop wringer works pretty well. Put the fruit inside s paint straining bag, place it in the wringer and press away. Now it may not be designated as food safe but it's not like I'm storing wine in it for any length of time. I doubt anything leaches out in the couple minutes the wine or juice us in the mop bucket.





GreginND said:


> Here's some fresh king of the north grapes I was pressing a couple years ago. It's not as good as a real press, but I find it better than the bucket in a bucket.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Go the call today, picking up Pinotage grapes this afternoon. Guess I'm going to have a friday night crush.


Pictures or it didn't happen!


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> either I was lied to or truck showed up right after I spoke with them.



From my understanding today they only have the Pinotage in, and I have a feeling they sold out on pre-orders for it. So technically they don't have any grapes or juice buckets available. They called me at 9am.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> From my understanding today they only have the Pinotage in, and I have a feeling they sold out on pre-orders for it. So technically they don't have any grapes or juice buckets available. They called me at 9am.



How do they look?


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> Pictures or it didn't happen!



They said expect the brix to be somewhere between 26-28. Going to crsuh around 7pm.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> How do they look?


Posted pics


----------



## mainshipfred

they look good, you happy with them?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> they look good, you happy with them?


So far very happy, they look great, fruit is nice throughout, I haven't tasted yet but will prior to crush and then get numbers after and again in the morning before I pitch yeast, depending on temp in the am. supposed to drop to 38f tonight so it won't warm up quickly in a 65f basement.


----------



## Johnd

Were the grapes packed with SO2 soaked pads in them? Be interesting to see what the SO2 levels are.


----------



## pgentile

Johnd said:


> Were the grapes packed with SO2 soaked pads in them? Be interesting to see what the SO2 levels are.



No SO2 soaked pads just a white corrugated heavy paper. I still don't have an accurate way of measuring SO2. Something I will probably deal with between spring and fall harvest since I more than likely will be going down the barrel route.


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Were the grapes packed with SO2 soaked pads in them? Be interesting to see what the SO2 levels are.





pgentile said:


> No SO2 soaked pads just a white corrugated heavy paper. I still don't have an accurate way of measuring SO2. Something I will probably deal with between spring and fall harvest since I more than likely will be going down the barrel route.



Here's a typical WMT off topic a little. I've been holding back on saying anything until I received the pricing which I'm supposed to get tomorrow. I've been emailing with Zemplen Barrels about purchasing 10 barrels. 5 - 30 and 5 - 25 liter. I want one of each and was going to sell the others at cost to anyone who may want one. From what I understand they periodically make barrels for Vadai and is what Harford was selling but is no longer going to carry anything smaller then10 gallon. The relationship if you wanted to call it that stemmed from my relationship with Chrysalis Vineyards. Evidently the Owner of Chrysalis at one time bought enough barrels for Zemplen to get started. Fingers crossed the numbers come in right.


----------



## pgentile

I'm very curious to hear the pricing. Gino Pinto's had 25gl barrels for $395.


----------



## zadvocate

mainshipfred said:


> Here's a typical WMT off topic a little. I've been holding back on saying anything until I received the pricing which I'm supposed to get tomorrow. I've been emailing with Zemplen Barrels about purchasing 10 barrels. 5 - 30 and 5 - 25 liter. I want one of each and was going to sell the others at cost to anyone who may want one. From what I understand they periodically make barrels for Vadai and is what Harford was selling but is no longer going to carry anything smaller then10 gallon. The relationship if you wanted to call it that stemmed from my relationship with Chrysalis Vineyards. Evidently the Owner of Chrysalis at one time bought enough barrels for Zemplen to get started. Fingers crossed the numbers come in right.



Please let me know I’m looking for a 25 l


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> No SO2 soaked pads just a white corrugated heavy paper. I still don't have an accurate way of measuring SO2. Something I will probably deal with between spring and fall harvest since I more than likely will be going down the barrel route.



They must have screwed up your Cabernet order. I see you ended up with some weird grape called ‘Pinotage’ somehow.  Some big ol’ berries there. 
Well hit us with the plan brother!
Looking back I see Bm 4x4. Vp-41 co-innoc
Mainly curious about the sulphide addition. Workhorse mLb and co-innoc and no so2 pads sounds like a recipe for MLF success. 30ppm?
Anything else goin in that’s out of the norm ? Tannin?
Hope the crusher serves you well. Have fun with your expensive Pintotage tonight buddy.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> They must have screwed up your Cabernet order. I see you ended up with some weird grape called ‘Pinotage’ somehow.  Some big ol’ berries there.
> Well hit us with the plan brother!
> Looking back I see Bm 4x4. Vp-41 co-innoc
> Mainly curious about the sulphide addition. Workhorse mLb and co-innoc and no so2 pads sounds like a recipe for MLF success. 30ppm?
> Anything else goin in that’s out of the norm ? Tannin?
> Hope the crusher serves you well. Have fun with your expensive Pintotage tonight buddy.



Right!? Everything I read said the berries were small this year. 

Plan is, yes, BM4x4 and vp-41 co-inoc a day or two later. I have ferm everything and the MLB adjuncts.

Vacillating on the SO2, but as you point out these are slightly more expensive grapes I'm considering hitting the must after crush with some.

Lallzyme after crush.

Not planning on tannin addition in this.

Also considering oak chips in the must.

Scrubbed the crusher again and sanitized. Will be using in 20 min.


----------



## Johnd

pgentile said:


> Right!? Everything I read said the berries were small this year.
> 
> Plan is, yes, BM4x4 and vp-41 co-inoc a day or two later. I have ferm everything and the MLB adjuncts.
> 
> Vacillating on the SO2, but as you point out these are slightly more expensive grapes I'm considering hitting the must after crush with some.
> 
> Lallzyme after crush.
> 
> Not planning on tannin addition in this.
> 
> Also considering oak chips in the must.
> 
> Scrubbed the crusher again and sanitized. Will be using in 20 min.



If the grapes are in good shape, you should really consider skipping the sulfites at crush, your cultured yeast will take over and govern the fermentation. When we get grapes from afar, we never know what sulfiting has or hasn’t taken place before we get them. Dig through the MoreWine manual again, it’s not just free sulfite that can inhibit your MLB, bound sulfite can do it as well. I believe that’s why my Chileans wouldn’t go through MLF. Shipped with SO2, some got bound, add at crush, some got bound, after AF, free SO2 was almost nil, but no joy, too much bound sulfite. Just one mans theory, take it for what it’s worth.......


----------



## pgentile

The Pinotage grapes had almost no leaves, twigs, unripe fruit or raisin-ed fruit. Nothing but clusters. Consistent all the way through. Handful of loose berries in each lug. Taste is very good.

The crusher worked superbly.

Must is temp is 51 f

brix 25
pH 3.32
TA .60

Will take readings again the am.


----------



## pgentile

Johnd said:


> If the grapes are in good shape, you should really consider skipping the sulfite sat crush, your cultured yeast will take over and govern the fermentation. When we get grapes from afar, we never know what sulfiting has or hasn’t taken place before we get them. Dig through the MoreWine manual again, it’s not just free sulfite that can inhibit your MLB, bound sulfite can do it as well. I believe that’s why my Chileans wouldn’t go through MLF. Shipped with SO2, some got bound, add at crush, some got bound, after AF, free SO2 was almost nil, but no joy, too much bound sulfite. Just one mans theory, take it for what it’s worth.......


John thanks, I decided during crush to skip the SO2 upfront after seeing how good the grapes were all the way through. Just added the Lallzyme and will pitch sometime tomorrow.


----------



## pgentile




----------



## Johnd

pgentile said:


> View attachment 47692
> View attachment 47693
> View attachment 47694



That’s some pretty good looking fruit!!


----------



## Ajmassa

If you destem through chicken wire or something similar please let me know how it goes. I anticipated some trial and error and having it either go perfectly- or a disaster and bailing halfway through


----------



## pgentile

I wanted to destem through chicken wire but never got around to putting it together this week, so went with a milk crate. it was the slow and clumsy part of the process. It worked but need to improve that part by next crush.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I'm very curious to hear the pricing. Gino Pinto's had 25gl barrels for $395.



The price I got from Vadai is $236.00 for a 25 and a 30 is $243.00 plus for me $65.00 for shipping.


----------



## pgentile

So they equate to a 6.5 and 8 gallons? I know I don't want a 25gl but I'm undecided on what would be best 8 or 15 gallon barrel. $243 is palatable.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> So they equate to a 6.5 and 8 gallons? I know I don't want a 25gl but I'm undecided on what would be best 8 or 15 gallon barrel. $243 is palatable.



That's the price I got a while ago from Vadai. I haven't received my pricing from Zemplen yet.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> That's the price I got a while ago from Vadai. I haven't received my pricing from Zemplen yet.



Got it.


----------



## pgentile

Numbers this morning.

Temp of must 58 f

Brix 25
pH 3.44

I didn't redo TA


----------



## Ajmassa

Getting a small barrel kinda overwhelms me. But I want the oak. And the micro-oxidation. But To keep full I need more batches less time needed at 1st and specific volumes needed to transfer to and from other vessels- and accounting for evaporation. Need some more 3gal carboys and 1 gal jugs. 
6.5 and 8gal is funky size. My current batches are 5,5 and 20. And 2 more 6’s Upcoming. Actually if I bump the new stuff another lug each I could make 25L barrel work. And would have 5 batches to run through concurrently. (20gal=3). How long till neutral?


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Getting a small barrel kinda overwhelms me. But I want the oak. And the micro-oxidation. But To keep full I need more batches less time needed at 1st and specific volumes needed to transfer to and from other vessels- and accounting for evaporation. Need some more 3gal carboys and 1 gal jugs.
> 6.5 and 8gal is funky size. My current batches are 5,5 and 20. And 2 more 6’s Upcoming. Actually if I bump the new stuff another lug each I could make 25L barrel work. And would have 5 batches to run through concurrently. (20gal=3). How long till neutral?



My 23 L Vadai barrels got neutral somewhere around 18 - 24 months. Since then, been leaving wines in them 6 - 8 months with oak staves / wine stix.


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> My 23 L Vadai barrels got neutral somewhere around 18 - 24 months. Since then, been leaving wines in them 6 - 8 months with oak staves / wine stix.



So ballparking 6 weeks and doubling, sounds like I could get at least 4 batches oaked before neutral. It’s funny I initially thought to get a small one to get my feet wet, but the smaller barrels are actually more work and planning.


----------



## Boatboy24

My experience is the same as John's - 18+ months to neutral. Doing 3 lugs (108lbs) gives me about 7 gallons from most varietals. So there's enough to top up, but not a ton of extra, with the 23 liter barrels. I find the size to be just about perfect. Plus, if you do kits, you can run a few of those through first to break the barrel in.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> So ballparking 6 weeks and doubling, sounds like I could get at least 4 batches oaked before neutral. It’s funny I initially thought to get a small one to get my feet wet, but the smaller barrels are actually more work and planning.



‘Tis true, a little more planning is is involved, but if you’re practicing our motto, you should have plenty of wines to run through. Started with one 23L, quickly grew to 4 of those, then added the 12 gallon when I realized that my wine backlog was years long. Now I’m all for bulk aging, but not for one day longer than necessary, and had 1.5 yo wines waiting to be barreled.


----------



## mainshipfred

Got my pricing on the barrels yesterday. They set me up as a small distributer of 10 occasional barrel orders. I couldn't get the discount of a larger distributer due to the quantity. The 25's are $190.00 and the 30's are $200.00. The shippimg cost works out to be around $15.00 per barrel plus I have to pick them up in Richmond which I don't mind. Those who are local I am willing to bring them to Baltimore or Philly for you to pick up in order to save additional shipping costs plus another opportunity to get together. I placed the order and am taking a bit of a risk if not enough of you are interested. Hopefully I can sell the others on Craigslist or Ebay.

As far as the sizes I selected (a little selfish) I'm not getting them for kits but rather grapes or juice bucket/grape combinations. With a juice bucket and a lug or 2 or 3 of grapes you are well over 25 liters and depending on how many lugs over 30 liters. Being new but having created a pretty good inventory of different sized carboys I still find it difficult when racking to fill the appropriate sized containers and sometimes I end up racking to a different sized container immediately. It took me a while to figure out how to handle filling the barrels but what I came up with is filling the barrel and leaving the remaining wine in carboys. Just before the barrel wine has enough oak I transfer some of the wine out of the barrel and replace it with the unoaked wine. I could also over oak the barreled wine then blend it with the unoaked. So far it seems to be working out pretty well, a little more work, and I'm getting a slightly longer time in the barrel without over oaking so I can keep the barrels filled longer. 

As I said, I ordered the barrels so let me know if you are interested.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Got my pricing on the barrels yesterday. They set me up as a small distributer of 10 occasional barrel orders. I couldn't get the discount of a larger distributer due to the quantity. The 25's are $190.00 and the 30's are $200.00. The shippimg cost works out to be around $15.00 per barrel plus I have to pick them up in Richmond which I don't mind. Those who are local I am willing to bring them to Baltimore or Philly for you to pick up in order to save additional shipping costs plus another opportunity to get together. I placed the order and am taking a bit of a risk if not enough of you are interested. Hopefully I can sell the others on Craigslist or Ebay..



That's great, I am 100% interested in at least one 30. I'm willing to meet somewhere in-between or closer to you to make it easier when they arrive.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> That's great, I am 100% interested in at least one 30. I'm willing to meet somewhere in-between or closer to you to make it easier when they arrive.



Great, they couldn't give a shipping date yet but initially said June or July but it all depends when their large barrel orders are ready to be shipped. Would be great if they came in before the Split Rock Meet Up.


----------



## pgentile

Lag phase is over, we have lift off, added nutrients. Pinotage has very thick skins, this is thickest must I have had to date. Maybe it's more pronounced this year do to the drought in SA. But I have never encountered the grape before so I have no personal reference.

This is the first all grape batch that my 2 x 4 crusher wasn't used. It's looking rather sad there sitting in the corner knowing it will never be used again, but the real crusher was far superior.


----------



## mainshipfred

mainshipfred said:


> Got my pricing on the barrels yesterday. They set me up as a small distributer of 10 occasional barrel orders. I couldn't get the discount of a larger distributer due to the quantity. The 25's are $190.00 and the 30's are $200.00. The shippimg cost works out to be around $15.00 per barrel plus I have to pick them up in Richmond which I don't mind. Those who are local I am willing to bring them to Baltimore or Philly for you to pick up in order to save additional shipping costs plus another opportunity to get together. I placed the order and am taking a bit of a risk if not enough of you are interested. Hopefully I can sell the others on Craigslist or Ebay.
> 
> As far as the sizes I selected (a little selfish) I'm not getting them for kits but rather grapes or juice bucket/grape combinations. With a juice bucket and a lug or 2 or 3 of grapes you are well over 25 liters and depending on how many lugs over 30 liters. Being new but having created a pretty good inventory of different sized carboys I still find it difficult when racking to fill the appropriate sized containers and sometimes I end up racking to a different sized container immediately. It took me a while to figure out how to handle filling the barrels but what I came up with is filling the barrel and leaving the remaining wine in carboys. Just before the barrel wine has enough oak I transfer some of the wine out of the barrel and replace it with the unoaked wine. I could also over oak the barreled wine then blend it with the unoaked. So far it seems to be working out pretty well, a little more work, and I'm getting a slightly longer time in the barrel without over oaking so I can keep the barrels filled longer.
> 
> As I said, I ordered the barrels so let me know if you are interested.



Edit, I went back and reread the qoute. The shipping in included in the price they were just letting me know what it was.


----------



## Ajmassa

Are they delivered shrinkwrapped or protected at all? So it can be left as is without maintenance until your ready prep and use?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Are they delivered shrinkwrapped or protected at all? So it can be left as is without maintenance until your ready prep and use?



Just checked and yes they are shrink wrapped. The bung hole is questionable though. I'm hoping it's not drilled.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Just checked and yes they are shrink wrapped. The bung hole is questionable though. I'm hoping it's not drilled.



Why’s that? Also what’s up with the toast level? Medium?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Why’s that? Also what’s up with the toast level? Medium?



I never asked about the toast level. I assume we could request what we want but I bet the default is meduim. As far as the bung hole I would think if it wasn't drilled it would keep undesirables out. I'm sure you have forsyth bits.


----------



## Ajmassa

Probably should put this in a different thread at some point. But you can definitely count me in for a 30L to pop my barrel cherry.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Probably should put this in a different thread at some point. But you can definitely count me in for a 30L to pop my barrel cherry.


They are going fast, only 4 left if you get one. I can still probably up the order. I just don't want to get stuck with barrels


----------



## pgentile

Added vp41 to the Pinotage tonight. Cap is thick, smell is very good. Will take SG tomorrow am.


----------



## pgentile

1.068 at noon today. Added nutrients.


----------



## baron4406

mainshipfred said:


> They are going fast, only 4 left if you get one. I can still probably up the order. I just don't want to get stuck with barrels



I'll take a 25 if you still have one-plus i live in the Allentown area and could certainly meet you in the Philly area


----------



## mainshipfred

baron4406 said:


> I'll take a 25 if you still have one-plus i live in the Allentown area and could certainly meet you in the Philly area



You may have the last 25. What's left is 3 30s. BTW, are you interested in going to the Meet Up and Wine Festival at Split Rocks in June.


----------



## Ajmassa

Going to up my grape order to account for a 30L barrel now. Originally put in for 12 half lugs hoping for (x2) 6 gal carboys filled for aging. I know yields vary- but seems like one 1/2 lug= >1 gal of finished wine -
You think 7 lugs would get me there? Or go 8 each? My math gives me 8.8gal from 126lbs (7 lugs).


----------



## zadvocate

I always assume I will get 60% of my must in finished wine. So .6 times 12.6 gallons of must gets me 7.5 gallons. I feel like I would rather over shoot than under.


----------



## Ajmassa

Your right I don’t know why I even contemplated it. Another 36lbs to both (and $100) and no worries. And possible a separate juice pail to boot as a failsafe (or excuse)
My #’s were 70%. And the must has worked out as the # lbs then shift decimal point left one space. 126lbs is about 12.6 gal must and about 7.5-8.8gal in the finish. <— works well enough to at least figure out an order and equipment.


----------



## baron4406

mainshipfred said:


> You may have the last 25. What's left is 3 30s. BTW, are you interested in going to the Meet Up and Wine Festival at Split Rocks in June.



Just looked it up, I'll be on Houston the week before but that weekend is clear for now, its less than an hour away for us. Looks like fun


----------



## Ajmassa

Upped the order to 8 lugs per batch. And a Syrah bucket. 
Just noticed my supplier sells an 8.8gal demijohn. Seems like a perfect match to an 8gal barrel. Great prices too (whole catalog really)


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Upped the order to 8 lugs per batch. And a Syrah bucket.
> Just noticed my supplier sells an 8.8gal demijohn. Seems like a perfect match to an 8gal barrel. Great prices too (whole catalog really) View attachment 47891



8.8 is good size to add one of these days, I also need a 3gl. 

Is it still malbec with the lugs?


----------



## pgentile

The Pinotage cap is starting to diminish. Smell is very good at this point. Depending on SG tomorrow I might be pressing saturday or sunday. Was hoping that juice buckets would be available to throw on the skins, but they look like a few weeks away yet. Guess I'll throw a good portion of the skins in the freezer.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> 8.8 is good size to add one of these days, I also need a 3gl.
> 
> Is it still malbec with the lugs?



Yea going 288lbs of Malbec. And a bucket of Syrah just because why not. 
Figure I can top Malbec with Syrah if I had to. New world blends- no rules!
The prices for bottles and corks are pretty spot on too. The real cork/agglomerated 1+1 are $0.17 ea. by the 50 bag. 1,000 obviously even cheaper. I’ll be gearing up. 
3gal carboy is also on my list. I do have 1 but need another. Very undervalued size. 
https://ginopinto.com/wp-content/up..._Winemaking_Catalog_Revised_February_2018.pdf
Good to hear smooth sailing so far over there.


----------



## pgentile

SG at .996 pH at 3.68. Will be pressing tomorrow. Got everything in order in the basement this evening.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> The Pinotage cap is starting to diminish. Smell is very good at this point. Depending on SG tomorrow I might be pressing saturday or sunday. Was hoping that juice buckets would be available to throw on the skins, but they look like a few weeks away yet. Guess I'll throw a good portion of the skins in the freezer.



Did you get Pinotage juice as well or putting the skins on another varietal?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Did you get Pinotage juice as well or putting the skins on another varietal?



Juice buckets aren't in yet as far as I know. With this I probably will stay with Pinotage juice. Will freeze the skins until I have the juice

Going to do another all grape batch with carmenere and syrah when the Chilean grapes come in as well.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yea going 288lbs of Malbec. And a bucket of Syrah just because why not.
> Figure I can top Malbec with Syrah if I had to. New world blends- no rules!
> The prices for bottles and corks are pretty spot on too. The real cork/agglomerated 1+1 are $0.17 ea. by the 50 bag. 1,000 obviously even cheaper. I’ll be gearing up.
> 3gal carboy is also on my list. I do have 1 but need another. Very undervalued size.
> https://ginopinto.com/wp-content/up..._Winemaking_Catalog_Revised_February_2018.pdf
> Good to hear smooth sailing so far over there.



They do have verry good prices. The corks caught my eye. It appears natural #9 corks are $9.50 for 50. Not much of a description but if they are truely natural corks that is a steal. I've been buying Grade 3 natural corks 100 for $42.00.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Juice buckets aren't in yet as far as I know. With this I probably will stay with Pinotage juice. Will freeze the skins until I have the juice
> 
> Going to do another all grape batch with carmenere and syrah when the Chilean grapes come in as well.



I'm waiting for my SA CS grapes. Just checked Harfords website and the CS grapes are no longer available. Hopefully that means they are on there way.


----------



## pgentile

They should be worth the wait. Very please with the quality of fruit from this years and last year's SA grapes.


----------



## pgentile

OK wine is in secondary. Ended up with with 11 gl of free run and just about 4 gl of pressed. The All-in-One worked very well as usual. 

Smell is very good but haven't tasted yet.


----------



## pgentile

Will rack again Monday off the gross lees, going to keep the free run and press separate, blend later. Will need to get a 3 gl carboy tomorrow.


----------



## mainshipfred

Trying to get a handle on how much wine I'll get from 6 lugs of CS. I realize the yield may be different with the different varietals, I'm just trying to get a gauge. From what I remember you ordered 16 lugs, is that correct? how hard did you press the skins? I may want to press mine only lightly and reuse them with my Malbec which I only bought 2 lugs plus a bucket. Last, what size press do you have? I have a 25 and 30 and thinking yours might be a 35.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Trying to get a handle on how much wine I'll get from 6 lugs of CS. I realize the yield may be different with the different varietals, I'm just trying to get a gauge. From what I remember you ordered 16 lugs, is that correct? how hard did you press the skins? I may want to press mine only lightly and reuse them with my Malbec which I only bought 2 lugs plus a bucket. Last, what size press do you have? I have a 25 and 30 and thinking yours might be a 35.



I purchased 11 lugs, should have been 12. After I rack off lees tomorrow it looks like I'll have 10.5 gl of free run and 3.5 of pressed, total of 14 gl. I did not press all that hard but ended up with a compact cake, but I probably could have gotten another .5 to 1 gl if I pressed harder, but I'm going to use the skins with buckets.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Last, what size press do you have? I have a 25 and 30 and thinking yours might be a 35.


 I have a 25 and a 20, that one in the picture is a #20.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I purchased 11 lugs, should have been 12. After I rack off lees tomorrow it looks like I'll have 10.5 gl of free run and 3.5 of pressed, total of 14 gl. I did not press all that hard but ended up with a compact cake, but I probably could have gotten another .5 to 1 gl if I pressed harder, but I'm going to use the skins with buckets.



Thanks, I'm doing the same with the skins. I only bought a bucket of Merlot but I'm keeping it frozen for my last ferment. It will have 6 lugs of CS, 2 lugs of Malbec and 1 lug of Carmenere skins. Hoping it makes it somewhat interesting.


----------



## pgentile

Racked off the gross lees tonight, smell is good. Taste is fruit forward but not tart, some dark cherry in there and smooth. Going to order more solvent/developer for chromatography tests. Being that this went from 3.42 at crush to 3.64 after press and taste smooth not tart, I'm wondering if MLF could have happened that quickly.


----------



## mainshipfred

baron4406 said:


> Just looked it up, I'll be on Houston the week before but that weekend is clear for now, its less than an hour away for us. Looks like fun



Giving any more thought to Split Rock and the Wine Festival. We are trying to get the last 4 rooms booked.


----------



## pgentile

Called Gino Pinto's today, they will have SA juice buckets in by the 20th and the Chilean buckets in the following week with the rest of the grapes.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Called Gino Pinto's today, they will have SA juice buckets in by the 20th and the Chilean buckets in the following week with the rest of the grapes.



Been waiting for an update. I would image Harford will be similar. Ready for a road trip @Boatboy24.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Been waiting for an update. I would image Harford will be similar. Ready for a road trip @Boatboy24.



Reminds me - I've got to order my goodies from MoreWine.


----------



## Boatboy24

Boatboy24 said:


> Reminds me - I've got to order my goodies from MoreWine.




Well that was fast. Ordered around noon yesterday and it has already arrived.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Well that was fast. Ordered around noon yesterday and it has already arrived.



I like More Wine and they are pretty fast. They have a distribution center in PA which helps us but that's still pretty quick.


----------



## baron4406

mainshipfred said:


> Giving any more thought to Split Rock and the Wine Festival. We are trying to get the last 4 rooms booked.


I'll ask the boss, we are planning to go but since its only about an hour drive for us we might just make it a day trip. Still might be fun to stay the night we just need a babysitter for the dogs/cats.


----------



## pgentile

OK so much for the pinotage free run being still, sometime in the last 24 hours MLF has become quite visible. Now the free & press run are the same color and have similar activity. The press run has darkened considerably and dropped off good bit of lees.


----------



## pgentile

South African juice buckets are in, decided on two cab sauv and a shiraz. Picking up monday in the am.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> South African juice buckets are in, decided on two cab sauv and a shiraz. Picking up monday in the am.



Did Harford notify you, how anout the grapes?


----------



## mainshipfred

mainshipfred said:


> Did Harford notify you, how anout the grapes?



Sorry, you may have gotten you from New Jersey


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Did Harford notify you, how anout the grapes?



I’m not sure if you realize it, but there’s actually more places in the world who sell grapes and juice aside from Hartford (I’m done fixing auto correct to remove the ‘t’) from here on out!


----------



## Ajmassa

Sorry. I didn’t mean that. I’m drunk in Atlantic city right now.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Sorry, you may have gotten you from New Jersey



Gino Pinto's South Jersey, no grapes in yet


----------



## Ajmassa

I meant it


----------



## pgentile

Picked up two Cab sauv and one Shiraz SA juice buckets today along with natural corks and a few pack of rc212.

pH 3.54 on the cab and 3.56 on the shiraz.

All three buckets are showing zero activity, will taste once they warm up a bit. 

SG was only 1.070 on all three, will be bumping that a bit.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Picked up two Cab sauv and one Shiraz SA juice buckets today along with natural corks and a few pack of rc212.
> 
> pH 3.54 on the cab and 3.56 on the shiraz.
> 
> All three buckets are showing zero activity, will taste once they warm up a bit.
> 
> SG was only 1.070 on all three, will be bumping that a bit.


Nice pH numbers, just curious why the SG was so low. Assuming you stirred it up a bit before you tested. Most of my juice buckets are usually in the 1.085 to 1.090 range. Maybe mine are being adjusted before I get them, though I would think the label would say "added sugar".


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> Nice pH numbers, just curious why the SG was so low. Assuming you stirred it up a bit before you tested. Most of my juice buckets are usually in the 1.085 to 1.090 range. Maybe mine are being adjusted before I get them, though I would think the label would say "added sugar".



After I mixed the buckets together and stirred thoroughly SG is 1.082.


----------



## cmason1957

pgentile said:


> After I mixed the buckets together and stirred thoroughly SG is 1.082.


I would be adding a little bit of sugar to that, as well. It might go up a couple more points as it warms. I belive last year, I had to add some sugar to mine to get them to where I wanted to be to start, but we are dealing with memory for that and I have consumed alcohol since then.


----------



## pgentile

cmason1957 said:


> I would be adding a little bit of sugar to that, as well. It might go up a couple more points as it warms. I belive last year, I had to add some sugar to mine to get them to where I wanted to be to start, but we are dealing with memory for that and I have consumed alcohol since then.



It's at about 48f right now. In the morning I'll take readings again. Plan on bumping to between 1.090-1.100 if it needs in the am.


----------



## JohnT

mainshipfred said:


> Sorry, you may have gotten you from New Jersey



OK,

Just for that...


----------



## jgmann67

pgentile said:


> After I mixed the buckets together and stirred thoroughly SG is 1.082.



Is it possible that ferment has already started with the wild yeast. My Cab bucket from last year decided to start without me...


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Is it possible that ferment has already started with the wild yeast. My Cab bucket from last year decided to start without me...


Yeah, didn't think of that, you jogged my memory. I had a White Zin bucket that was going full tilt by the time I opened it (could hear gas escaping through the rubber valve on the bucket the whole way home from Harford).


----------



## pgentile

jgmann67 said:


> Is it possible that ferment has already started with the wild yeast. My Cab bucket from last year decided to start without me...



Quite possible, but I had buckets last year that had activity already going when purchased and these seemed to be inert at the time of pickup. Didn't taste like anything had gone on yet either, but who knows?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Picked up two Cab sauv and one Shiraz SA juice buckets today along with natural corks and a few pack of rc212.
> 
> Does anyone think it's strange that the juice buckets come in before the grapes? I would have thought it would be the other way around.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Does anyone think it's strange that the juice buckets come in before the grapes? I would have thought it would be the other way around.


I wondered that myself, but grapes might require different handling & shipping methods than the buckets making them take longer. Produce vs juice?


----------



## JohnT

Correct! Seems whole fruit needs a quarantine period where sealed juice is considered much safer to allow into the country.


----------



## cmason1957

I would guess that the logic might be whole fruit can hide critters, while they cannot survive the juicing process. But logic may have nothing to do with anything.


----------



## Ajmassa

Just spoke with the South jersey supplier. Everything should be coming in next week. I need to get my act together now. So much to do and order- and time is just tickin away!


----------



## JohnT

is that Gino Pinto??


----------



## Ajmassa

Yessir Gino Pintos. They said ALL of the Chilean grapes SHOULD be coming in throughout next week - as well as the juice pails.


----------



## mainshipfred

Harford update: Just spoke to Teresa the email is being written right now everything from SA and Chili is coming in sometime tomorrow. Everything except the Chilean Carmenere and 2 other grapes but I don't remember what they were. They think they will start pick up a 2:00 tomorrrow. So who's going and when when?


----------



## Boatboy24

My PV is coming in, but not the Carmenere.  Are you headed up, @mainshipfred ? I can't do it this weekend, and the PV is only 10% of my order.


----------



## mainshipfred

I am but don't know if it will be tomorrow or Saturday afternoon. I only have one lug of Carmenere not coming. I could pick up your PV but it probably won't help you.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I am but don't know if it will be tomorrow or Saturday afternoon. I only have one lug of Carmenere not coming. I could pick up your PV but it probably won't help you.



I can probably find room in the freezer for 18lbs of grapes. Let me know what your plan is.


----------



## mainshipfred

When using my crusher/destemmer yesterday the grapes seemed to get stuck in the top of the chute and I had to keep pulling them down. Is there a trick I don't know about?


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> When using my crusher/destemmer yesterday the grapes seemed to get stuck in the top of the chute and I had to keep pulling them down. Is there a trick I don't know about?



You mean before they went through the rollers? You should be able to adjust the distance between them.


----------



## mainshipfred

No, after the rollers they got stuck in the chute before they went into the bucket.


----------



## Ajmassa

Grapes are trickling in over my neck of the woods. I assume the same for most areas in US. 
I was told every couple days more will be coming. So if I wanted to pick up either thurs, fri, Saturday- all would likely work out fine. @pgentile I’m still game to attempt to meet up at pickup to swap some cab if scheduling allows. Let me know. 
I was thinking of picking up Friday afternoon or Saturday morning (more likely).


----------



## pgentile

I have a bottle of Cab reserved for our swap and I have a bottle of Bordeaux for the crusher. My stepson has graduation Saturday morning and Friday is out this week.. Not sure when the Carmenere is coming in, I was hoping to pick up Thursday or next Monday. But let me know when you get a clearer idea when you are going, and maybe i'll be able to make it work.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> I have a bottle of Cab reserved for our swap and I have a bottle of Bordeaux for the crusher. My stepson has graduation Saturday morning and Friday is out this week.. Not sure when the Carmenere is coming in, I was hoping to pick up Thursday or next Monday. But let me know when you get a clearer idea when you are going, and maybe i'll be able to make it work.



Sounds like direct opposite availability. Lol. We’ll see how it pans out. Pintos obviously unable to give any definite answers. 
FYI - I’m sure most people prepared accordingly but I didn’t place my morewine order until this past wknd and vp41 mlb is sold out. Went with enoferm Alpha. 4 for 4 with the vp41- I’m hoping for more of the same from Alpha.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Sounds like direct opposite availability. Lol. We’ll see how it pans out. Pintos obviously unable to give any definite answers.
> FYI - I’m sure most people prepared accordingly but I didn’t place my morewine order until this past wknd and vp41 mlb is sold out. Went with enoferm Alpha. 4 for 4 with the vp41- I’m hoping for more of the same from Alpha.


Right! 

the week before last when I called Pintos about the SA buckets, they had just come in. They told me to call back later because they had to inventory them. They weren't sure if they had enough to fill the pre-orders. Luckily for me they did.

Same thing happened to me with the Malo last year, I waited too long. No vp41. Ended up buying 6 tubes of liquid Whitelabs malo from Home Brew West at discounted price. Someone had ordered and never picked up. By the time I use the last two they were out of date but still worked.

This year I did get vp41 early, divided into three vials. I've used two so far and will use the third on the Carmenere. 

At More Wine I don't see where they say batch size for the Alpha. Is it for up to 66 gallons like the vp41?


----------



## Ajmassa

Yea as far as I can tell 66gal seems to be the accepted smaller malo max packaging. Most 2.5g. But some had 1g for 66gal too. 
Alpha’s data sheet had all the right tolerance #’s to hedge my bet. And I get a full 50g actiML for the 2.5g of malo. 
Still separating the batch for D80/d254 which will be only difference. Should be fun.


----------



## mainshipfred

I separated my CS into 3 buckets about 4 gallons each and after a 2 day extended maceration added D80, D254 and Vintner's Harvest R56 . I was afraid to wait any longer for the extended maceration since the S02 was only 6.0 ppm.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I separated my CS into 3 buckets about 4 gallons each and after a 2 day extended maceration added D80, D254 and Vintner's Harvest R56 . I was afraid to wait any longer for the extended maceration since the S02 was only 6.0 ppm.



That’s ballsy. I don’t think I woulda done 2 days at 6ppm so2. U keep temps down?? I’d think if at room temp theyd take off running after that long.
Is it 36lbs per bucket? With (x3) 4gal buckets of must What’s your vessel plan to finish MLF and age? Blend right away and taking a number for barrel time?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> That’s ballsy. I don’t think I woulda done 2 days at 6ppm so2. U keep temps down?? I’d think if at room temp theyd take off running after that long.
> Is it 36lbs per bucket? With (x3) 4gal buckets of must What’s your vessel plan to finish MLF and age? Blend right away and taking a number for barrel time?



I did put them in my cooler plus I rinsed them before crushing. There was no sign of fermentation starting. Closer to 40 lbs per bucket. Once it's done fermenting I'm going to see what kind of yield I get with a light pressing and put it in the proper carboy. The skins will go into the CS juice bucket. Then the CSSkins will be used again with the 2 lugs of Malbec grapes and juice bucket. @Boatboy24 is going to give me his 9 lugs of Carmenere skins to mix with the Carnenere juice bucket and 1 lug of grapes. I have a bucket of Merlot that I'm still deciding what I'm going to do with. Going to wait till everything is done and do MLF on everything at once.


----------



## zadvocate

All I can say is wow can’t wait to hear how it turns out.


----------



## pgentile

Ended up with Carmenere and Malbec lugs today. Crushing will commence at 7pm. This crush will be accompanied with a bottle of last years SA cab.


----------



## pgentile

Dichotomy of two grapes this evening. Carmenere on the left malbec on the right. Today is a day I wish I wasn't doing a field blend. If my second fermenting vessel wasn't full I would have separated. Carmenere grapes look and tasted great and fruit was nice throughout. The malbec tasted ok but fruit was inconsistent. Threw out a least one raisined whole cluster in each lug some had two. Many clusters had fruit at all stages.

This years Chilean grapes are nowhere as nice as the SA grapes.

Each lug had an so2 pad on top and bottom.


----------



## Boatboy24

That sucks. Not sure I'd have taken delivery on that Malbec.


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## pgentile

That was my bad for not inspecting before I left the supplier. But never had any this bad before from them. Curious to hear how @Ajmassa5983 turned out with his grapes, he was getting all malbec.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> That was my bad for not inspecting before I left the supplier. But never had any this bad before from them. Curious to hear how @Ajmassa5983 turned out with his grapes, he was getting all malbec.



Couldn’t be any happier. 100% Head and shoulders better than fall grapes...again. 
One pad per lug. Very few raisins. Occasional bad cluster is expected tho. All in all I’m super stoked about these. You think it’s a possibility the pricy pinotage is just too fresh in your head?? 

VIVA LA CHILÈ


----------



## Johnd

pgentile said:


> That was my bad for not inspecting before I left the supplier. But never had any this bad before from them. Curious to hear how @Ajmassa5983 turned out with his grapes, he was getting all malbec.



Ouch!! You don’t have that much, consider bucking up and separating the good from bad before crushing. Your end product will thank you. Definitely think about co-inoculating mlb, you could have lots of bound sulfite, the critters will get a better foothold before you produce alcohol.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Couldn’t be any happier. 100% Head and shoulders better than fall grapes...again.
> One pad per lug. Very few raisins. Occasional bad cluster is expected tho. All in all I’m super stoked about these. You think it’s a possibility the pricy pinotage is just too fresh in your head??
> 
> VIVA LA CHILÈView attachment 48454



Looks good, I must have gotten the 4 runt lugs of malbec. But the carmenere grapes are very nice. Maybe it was the contrast. 

Yeah the quality of the pinotage has jaded me.

All is good. pH was 3.33


----------



## pgentile

Johnd said:


> Ouch!! You don’t have that much, consider bucking up and separating the good from bad before crushing. Your end product will thank you. Definitely think about co-inoculating mlb, you could have lots of bound sulfite, the critters will get a better foothold before you produce alcohol.



Right!! I was picky during crush. Pulled out more, raisin-ed and under-ripe and leaves and twigs and etc, than any other lugs to date, but in reality it didn't add up much weight wise.

I have co-inoculated every batch this year and will do the same with this.


----------



## mainshipfred

Even though I only got 2 lugs of Malbec to add to my juice bucket they were almost perfect. Stems and seeds were a little greener then I would have liked but in general the grapes were in great shape. The SA CS on the other hand had some mold and raisons but out of 7 lugs it only filled about 3 inches on the bottom of a bucket. 80+ % of the stems and seeds were a nice mature brown.


----------



## TemperanceOwl

I have 6 lugs of Chilean Carmenere and one pail of Cab/Merlot blend coming in a couple of weeks. My plan is to start the Carmenere first, and at SG ~1.002 rack and maybe do a light press, then put the Cab/Merlot juice on the skins and start that ferment. 

I'm going to put them both through MLF (first time). I keep seeing that it's best to inoculate with MLF about 48 hours after the yeast starts working, but if I start MLF on the Carmenere during primary the bacteria will already be on the grapes when I put the Cab juice on the grapes, before its yeast ferment gets going.

Do you all have any advice? Would you go ahead with MLF on the Carmenere grapes, or wait until primary is finished and inoculate both the Carmenere and Cab at the same time a week or so later? Thanks, y'all!


----------



## pgentile

TemperanceOwl said:


> Do you all have any advice? Would you go ahead with MLF on the Carmenere grapes, or wait until primary is finished and inoculate both the Carmenere and Cab at the same time a week or so later? Thanks, y'all!



This past year I started adding MLB the day after yeast with good results. I crushed 7 lugs of carmenere yesterday, will add yeast tonight and MLB tomorrow. Good luck


----------



## pgentile

18 hours since crush of Carmenere/Malbec field blend. temp is 50f, pH 3.44, brix 23, TA 6.5


----------



## Ajmassa

TemperanceOwl said:


> I have 6 lugs of Chilean Carmenere and one pail of Cab/Merlot blend coming in a couple of weeks. My plan is to start the Carmenere first, and at SG ~1.002 rack and maybe do a light press, then put the Cab/Merlot juice on the skins and start that ferment.
> 
> I'm going to put them both through MLF (first time). I keep seeing that it's best to inoculate with MLF about 48 hours after the yeast starts working, but if I start MLF on the Carmenere during primary the bacteria will already be on the grapes when I put the Cab juice on the grapes, before its yeast ferment gets going.
> 
> Do you all have any advice? Would you go ahead with MLF on the Carmenere grapes, or wait until primary is finished and inoculate both the Carmenere and Cab at the same time a week or so later? Thanks, y'all!



Inoculate ml in the grapes. Even 24 HRs later is cool. And after when added to the juice those yeasts and ml bacteria are already so active that they will both kick off together no problem. Will take off fast and finish fast. Doing the same thing myself.


----------



## Johnd

I agree with both @Ajmassa5983 and @pgentile , you should be just fine. Make certain the both your yeast and mlb are properly fed during AF using good quality nutrients.


----------



## TemperanceOwl

Johnd said:


> I agree with both @Ajmassa5983 and @pgentile , you should be just fine. Make certain the both your yeast and mlb are properly fed during AF using good quality nutrients.


Thanks, John, Ajmassa, and Pgentile! I'll go with the MLF on the grapes!


----------



## ceeaton

TemperanceOwl said:


> Thanks, John, Ajmassa, and Pgentile! I'll go with the MLF on the grapes!


The only con to co-innoculatation of MLB is if you planned to add the used grape skins to a kit in the future. I think most suggest not to perform MLF on kits, and adding grapes that went through MLF would most likely introduce MLB to the kit juice.


----------



## mainshipfred

Question please! I just did a light press of my SA Cab and reintroduced the skins into the Cab juice bucket. I hydrated the yeast using Go Ferm abd added Ferm K @ 1/2 or so sugar depletion. Initially used 8 gram packs of d80 and 254 and a 5 gram pack of Vintner's Harvest R56 into 3 - 4 gallon batches. Do I need to add any more Ferm K or O at this time? FWIW I got 7 gallons of lightly pressed wine out of 7 lugs.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Question please! I just did a light press of my SA Cab and reintroduced the skins into the Cab juice bucket. I hydrated the yeast using Go Ferm abd added Ferm K @ 1/2 or so sugar depletion. Initially used 8 gram packs of d80 and 254 and a 5 gram pack of Vintner's Harvest R56 into 3 - 4 gallon batches. Do I need to add any more Ferm K or O at this time? FWIW I got 7 gallons of lightly pressed wine out of 7 lugs.



Not 100% sure I understand your question. When I add skins from press to buckets I don't add any yeast, there's more than enough to handle the bucket. I usually do 3 buckets and don't add yeast. But I do add nutrients at the proper steps.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Not 100% sure I understand your question. When I add skins from press to buckets I don't add any yeast, there's more than enough to handle the bucket. I usually do 3 buckets and don't add yeast. But I do add nutrients at the proper steps.



That was my question and I researched and found that additional yeast is not needed as you said. As far as proper steps would it be an immediate nutrient addition and then again at 1/3?


----------



## jburtner

ceeaton said:


> The only con to co-innoculatation of MLB is if you planned to add the used grape skins to a kit in the future. I think most suggest not to perform MLF on kits, and adding grapes that went through MLF would most likely introduce MLB to the kit juice.



There is that - And I remember now that's why I didn't co-inoculate last year and I ended up running a stags leap merlot kit through the left over skins and mlb'ing the cab after pressing.

I did however blend the merlot kit and the mlf'd cab sav from grapes after the fact and it's great today...

The mlf / kit issus is that the kit's have already been acid balanced so MLF would then unbalance them and require further acid adjustments depending on the acid content of the kit... That's my understanding anyway - maybe not the end of the world..

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> That was my question and I researched and found that additional yeast is not needed as you said. As far as proper steps would it be an immediate nutrient addition and then again at 1/3?



Yup, that's what I do.


----------



## mainshipfred

jburtner said:


> There is that - And I remember now that's why I didn't co-inoculate last year and I ended up running a stags leap merlot kit through the left over skins and mlb'ing the cab after pressing.
> 
> I did however blend the merlot kit and the mlf'd cab sav from grapes after the fact and it's great today...
> 
> The mlf / kit issus is that the kit's have already been acid balanced so MLF would then unbalance them and require further acid adjustments depending on the acid content of the kit... That's my understanding anyway - maybe not the end of the world..
> 
> Cheers!
> -johann



No evidence, no proof and no experience but this is my take on the whole MLF/kits debate. Kit instructions and recommendations are for the beginning winemaker. Even though experienced winemakers use kits I doubt they follow the directions. This is obvious with the responses the experienced give to the beginners. I get the balanced thing and from what I gather on this site, kits are high in Malic additions. Artificially produced Malic will not convert to lactic. Then there is not knowing how the juice is processed which could be an issue. As you said Johann if it where to be able to go through MLF adjustments would have to be made which would be an added step which most people couldn't or wouldn't want to do.


----------



## Ajmassa

Unfortunately life and work got pretty busy lately. Still is. Haven’t had time to get on here and talk shop much. Wanted to quickly post on the 2018 Chileans. I got 16 lugs of Malbec. Went with Malbec since it’s a varietal Chile is known for. Saving the cabs for Cali (or Wash St.  )
Grapes came up in great shape. Extremely happy with quality. Picture perfect clusters everywhere. 
New wineroom temporary setup worked awesome as well. The new/old crusher destemmer was a damn beast! Had to do some rigging on the fly, but I anticipated that anyway. A beast! (@JohnT, here’s lookin at you!)
I could drone on forever- but no time. Wine is currently rockin and rollin! We are past lag phase- 1st half nutrient dose- MLF inoculated, a few punches already, super thick caps and getting thicker, (and forming back in minutes), only about .010 Sg drop so far. A new grape ferment is truly a blast. The room is just about starting to smell like my favorite smell on earth. 
Btw the pic of the punchdown was the only ‘help’ I got at all. Everyone else is busy too. Spring doesn’t tend to garner the same anticipation as fall by ‘outsiders’. Worked my ass off! —— We are making wine! And life is good. 
Buenas noches.


----------



## sour_grapes

Where's the quadruple like button!?


----------



## stickman

Yea, really nice, I can smell the berries from here.


----------



## pgentile

@Ajmassa5983 looking good over there all around. Really like your setup so far. My carmenere looked that good, the malbec did once I culled a bit. But same thing here nice thick cap, hit with MLB today. hey what kind of numbers did you have?


----------



## Johnd

Looking awesome, you’ve got a lot of toys!! The Malbec from 2016 is turning into a pretty nice wine, betting yours is going to be a winner!!


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> @Ajmassa5983 looking good over there all around. Really like your setup so far. My carmenere looked that good, the malbec did once I culled a bit. But same thing here nice thick cap, hit with MLB today. hey what kind of numbers did you have?



Numbers were good by me. 24ish brix° at crush. Next day SG read 1.099. Ph 3.3 initially. Then bouncing next day 3.2-3.3. (My meter reads only one decimal. Gonna upgrade but been spending money like crazy. Need to chill for a bit lol)
Free So2 read ~15ppm. Crush took a while and saw more bubbles and foaming than I was comfortable with. Decided to add a touch of so2. Brought to 25ppm. 
With ph so low i knew I wasn’t adding acid and to remove from must would just be a headache. Alpha ML had legit tolerances. Took TA right before yeast- read 6.0g/L. So far so good. 
D80 took off quick. D254 caught up next day tho. 
Added some oak chips to 254 to find out 1st hand what the deal is with that. Blending down the line. Excited for my 1st barrel for these.


----------



## Ajmassa

Oh yeah, and I ordered the wrong enzyme. I bought Lallazyme EX-V- not EX by mistake. May have added another year to the aging it seems. Im perfectly fine with that tho. As long as she turns into a tasty balanced Malbec in the end I’ll be happy.


----------



## Boatboy24

Great setup, AJ!!


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Numbers were good by me. 24ish brix° at crush. Next day SG read 1.099. Ph 3.3 initially. Then bouncing next day 3.2-3.3. (My meter reads only one decimal. Gonna upgrade but been spending money like crazy. Need to chill for a bit lol)
> Free So2 read ~15ppm. Crush took a while and saw more bubbles and foaming than I was comfortable with. Decided to add a touch of so2. Brought to 25ppm.
> With ph so low i knew I wasn’t adding acid and to remove from must would just be a headache. Alpha ML had legit tolerances. Took TA right before yeast- read 6.0g/L. So far so good.
> D80 took off quick. D254 caught up next day tho.
> Added some oak chips to 254 to find out 1st hand what the deal is with that. Blending down the line. Excited for my 1st barrel for these.




At crush I had a pH of 3.33 18 hours later it was 3.44. Re-calibrated the meter still 3.44. No So2 reading ability here yet. 

Your pH will probably be higher after ferment.

I did oak chips in primary for the first time on this batch.

Sounds good, looking forward to my first barrel as well this year.


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Oh yeah, and I ordered the wrong enzyme. I bought Lallazyme EX-V- not EX by mistake. May have added another year to the aging it seems. Im perfectly fine with that tho. As long as she turns into a tasty balanced Malbec in the end I’ll be happy.


I've used EX-V most of the time and haven't really noticed a difference in flavor a couple of years down the road. Does help extract a really nice color though.

You do have quite the setup. Someday I'll grow up and make my basement look like yours (which doesn't look like a basement anymore, more like a winery)!


----------



## stickman

The EX-V is good I've used it many times, but the punch-downs have to be adjusted according to how tough or fragile the skins are, the combination of EX-V and aggressive punch-downs can convert your skins to pulp.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> At crush I had a pH of 3.33 18 hours later it was 3.44. Re-calibrated the meter still 3.44. No So2 reading ability here yet.
> 
> Your pH will probably be higher after ferment.
> I did oak chips in primary for the first time on this batch.
> Sounds good, looking forward to my first barrel as well this year.



I wasn’t worried about the ph. Confident the numbers will shift the right way. 
I simply use titrets for so2. Gets the job done. 
A wise winemaker once told me-if you’ve got quality grapes in good shape you don’t need to add oak to the ferment. I trust his judgement- but still wanted to find out for myself. With separating my grapes I can see 1st hand. 


ceeaton said:


> I've used EX-V most of the time and haven't really noticed a difference in flavor a couple of years down the road. Does help extract a really nice color though.



Not so much adding time for flavor down the road. But stronger enzyme= more extraction = more tannin= more time needed to mellow and balance out. Theoretically at least. 
And Craig, you didn’t see the other half of the basement in the pics. Condensed all our storage now looks like an episode of hoarders. After pressing she’ll get her storage space back


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> The EX-V is good I've used it many times, but the punch-downs have to be adjusted according to how tough or fragile the skins are, the combination of EX-V and aggressive punch-downs can convert your skins to pulp.



Nice tip. Didn’t think about punching ‘too much’- just the adverse. Even Using just EX turned my skins to mush by the end last year. I’ve been punching morning afternoon and night. I check sugar at afternoon punch. By the time I’m done a strong cap is already formed. I punch it again at that point. 
Temps have been steady ~68°. Very nice pace. I’m sure it will pick up steam soon. I’m anticipating a nutrient shot when I get home with 1/3 sugar depletion. 

And @Johnd, yea I’ve accumulated some toys. But I’m not satisfied. I might not ever be satisfied actually. But I do have a goal in mind (it ain’t small!)- and I’m still a ways away. Fully finished room. Single varietal batches to fill a 30 or 60 gal barrel a season. And a couple VC’s. Every few years rotating in new oak and having blending parties. Your all invited! (Of course a cellar will be needed too). Lofty but not unrealistic and I’m on my way. Scaling up and learning more as I go. I got time. I turned 35 yrs old today actually.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> And @Johnd, yea I’ve accumulated some toys. But I’m not satisfied. I might not ever be satisfied actually. But I do have a goal in mind (it ain’t small!)- and I’m still a ways away. Fully finished room. Single varietal batches to fill a 30 or 60 gal barrel a season. And a couple VC’s. Every few years rotating in new oak and having blending parties. Your all invited! (Of course a cellar will be needed too). Lofty but not unrealistic and I’m on my way. Scaling up and learning more as I go. I got time. I turned 35 yrs old today actually.



A good goal, and pretty much where I've set to end up also, wish I'd started at 35 instead of mid 40's............Made a lot of wine in the early years, got the toys, wine room / cellar done, and in 2017 executed my "scale back" by making 50 gallons of wine, loading a 30 gallon French barrel and the other 20 gallons into the Vadai's. The little barrels will be retired by the end of the year, as well as the 12, and will be getting a new barrel (30 or 60) for each successive vintage in the future. 150 - 300 bottles a year is plenty to keep the supply constant, on top of the commercial wines.............


----------



## ceeaton

stickman said:


> The EX-V is good I've used it many times, but the punch-downs have to be adjusted according to how tough or fragile the skins are, the combination of EX-V and aggressive punch-downs can convert your skins to pulp.


Ahhh, that's were all that pulp comes from, makes a little more sense now. I'm not overly aggressive, usually a punch down when I wake up, and on when I go to bed. Since I only had one lug of grapes added to a bucket (plus some frozen used skins from an earlier batch), I didn't press but strained it through a paint strainer bag. The final dump of the fermenter clogged the bag up pretty well, so I couldn't squeeze all the liquid that was trapped in the pulp out. Still got a little more than 7 gallons. If I get 6 gallons of finished wine I'll be happy.

The small flower bed that doubles as a compost pile smelled really good when I walked past it to the car this morning. Had me thinking I might need a "cough, cough" sick day today. Unfortunately trying to put a phone book to bed today, so I didn't want to get my boss upset (he'd have to do all the work in my absence).


----------



## pgentile

Walked into my house tonight, and pow, got hit by one of the most awesome fermenting smells filling the whole house. Have all 11 lugs in one brute, cap pushing the towel up a bit.


----------



## jburtner

> I turned 35 yrs old today actually.



Happy Birthday and you’ve got some nice lookin grapes 

Cheers,
-jb


----------



## Ajmassa

jburtner said:


> Happy Birthday and you’ve got some nice lookin grapes
> 
> Cheers,
> -jb



Thank you. And yeah, they looked just as good in person too. Have you received your pails of must from juicegrape.com yet??


----------



## jburtner

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Thank you. And yeah, they looked just as good in person too. Have you received your pails of must from juicegrape.com yet??


I haven’t yet. I think they’re still waiting on receiving Syrah grapes but it sounds like they have Malbec and Petit Verdot in and crushed / frozen. Expecting towards end of this month so am excited to see that yours look so good 

Cheers!
Johann


----------



## mainshipfred

Still too early to tell but I may have a winner with the SA Cab grape batch. Used skins/juice bucket batch not bad either. Nice dark color and good tannin structure. Waiting for everything else to finish before doing MLF. Only my second all grape batch and I have to say, at least initially, all grape is the way to go. My other all grape a Norton is coming along nicely as well.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Still too early to tell but I may have a winner with the SA Cab grape batch. Used skins/juice bucket batch not bad either. Nice dark color and good tannin structure. Waiting for everything else to finish before doing MLF. Only my second all grape batch and I have to say, at least initially, all grape is the way to go. My other all grape a Norton is coming along nicely as well.



Good to hear. My 2017 SA Cab is a winner. You will rally like after a year or so.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Good to hear. My 2017 SA Cab is a winner. You will rally like after a year or so.



It will eventually go in a new barrel whenever they come in. Did you blend it with anything?


----------



## mainshipfred

I only started drinking or knowing anything about wine for about 3 years now. When I first started we did a tasting in a loud tasting room. When the poured told us it was Cab Sauv I heard Caps Off. So the name will be, you guessed it, "Caps Off" and the juice bucket will be "Caps Off Too". Hopefully it will be caps off to the winemaker as well.


----------



## jburtner

mainshipfred said:


> I only started drinking or knowing anything about wine for about 3 years now. When I first started we did a tasting in a loud tasting room. When the poured told us it was Cab Sauv I heard Caps Off. So the name will be, you guessed it, "Caps Off" and the juice bucket will be "Caps Off Too". Hopefully it will be caps off to the winemaker as well.



And it’s going to be caps off to the closure capsules as the wine is glugged by the gallons! That’s a great name with a cool story. 

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## pgentile

Nope it's good enough to stand on it's own. Can't wait to get my hands on a barrel.

I will be pressing the carmenere\malbec tomorrow or monday I have two buckets of carmenere and 1 of malbec to throw on the skins after press.


----------



## Ajmassa

Are there any negative effects from pressing early? Around 1.010 - 1.015 ish?? 
Aside from less time on skins for more extraction that is. With use of enzymes getting enough extraction is not really a concern. 
But timing of the press is not something that is routine for me. I haven’t done it enough to have a preference. I guess I’m asking if given the choice to press above 1.000 or below 1.000 which would be the better option if circumstances don’t allow pressing at ideal 1.000?


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Are there any negative effects from pressing early? Around 1.010 - 1.015 ish??
> Aside from less time on skins for more extraction that is. With use of enzymes getting enough extraction is not really a concern.
> But timing of the press is not something that is routine for me. I haven’t done it enough to have a preference. I guess I’m asking if given the choice to press above 1.000 or below 1.000 which would be the better option if circumstances don’t allow pressing at ideal 1.000?


I've heard from 1.010 to dry, as long as a nice cap is still being formed. If that cap gets thin, it means the CO2 production is dropping and it's protective properties could be more easily compromised, especially in an open fermentor, which a brute pretty much is, even with the lid on it. At 1.020 I try to schedule in my mind when I can do it, expecting a .008 to .010 drop the next day, a bit less each succeeding day as dryness is approached, depending on the yeast (AMH normally has half that change).


----------



## stickman

I agree with Craig above. Oxygen protection is probably a greater issue with delicate reds and less an issue with dark tannic grapes. I think generally short maceration is used for fruit forward early to drink wines, as well as when you want to limit extraction of harsh tannins, for example, when the grapes are under ripe or uneven ripeness and green seeds, mold or rot, etc.


----------



## mainshipfred

I don't have enough experience with grapes either but my preference is not only color but tannin extraction. I was looking for a high tannin wine in my Cab and judging from my grapes I thought I was able to get it. 
I fermented 3 different yeasts and prior to pressing 2 were below 1.000 and the third was 1.010 but all still had a nice cap. My bigger concern was the S02 levels since the grapes were around 6 ppm and I didn't add any sulfites. 2 days after pressing I racked and added sulfites to get to 15 ppm. Trying to be careful since I'm using MBR 31 which has a relatively low S02 tolerance.


----------



## stickman

You didn't add much so nothing to worry about, but generally I would hold off on adding sulfite if there is any fermentation happening. The reason is that yeast release a small amount of acetaldehyde that usually binds beneficially with color and tannin making the color permanent, but if free sulfite is present the acetaldehyde will bind with the sulfite instead.


----------



## mainshipfred

@stickman, thanks for that, I didn't know but when I pressed, all three went into the same carboy. The combined gravity when I added the sulfite was .996. I still have the Malbec, Carmenere and Merlot to ferment and since I'm reusing the skins I have another few weeks before I MLF and wanted to error on the side of caution.


----------



## Ajmassa

Just so much going on this weekend stretched my time very thin. Making sure Mother’s Day, Which got off to bad start, ended strong and successful was my #1 priority. Wine took a backseat. 
I ran out of time last night after transferring the free run to glass. But did not yet press. I have no clue if this is acceptable or not, but I left the skins to be pressed in the brutes and put some sanitized plastic across the surface and then the lids. 
Hoping the press this afternoon still goes as planned. 
IIRC I saw something similar done to the grapes for an extended maceration by @zadvocate.


----------



## JohnT

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 48531




I have to admit, that is a pretty nice crusher you got there @Ajmassa5983 !!! Perhaps you could send me a bottle of this vintage??

Use it in good health!


----------



## JohnT

I am crushing my Chilean grapes on 5/19. Apparently the cabernet was late in coming.


----------



## pgentile

So yesterday at 6pm I was racking off the free run, and before I could press the grapes I got called back into work and couldn't. Has anyone ever taken the free run and then pressed the next day? Everything still smells good, but won't get a chance to press until tonight. Free run carmenere/malbec taste was pretty darn good.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> So yesterday at 6pm I was racking off the free run, and before I could press the grapes I got called back into work and couldn't. Has anyone ever taken the free run and then pressed the next day? Everything still smells good, but won't get a chance to press until tonight. Free run carmenere/malbec taste was pretty darn good.


 
Lol. Yeah dude. Just about 12 hours ago actually. 24 hrs after pumping free run. That’s why I covered the surface in plastic a few posts back. Mother’s Day/work/softball etc... can’t pause it!
It worked well. No off smells or anything. Just another day on the skins. The press run measured .992 SG. Gotta do what ya gotta do.


----------



## JohnT

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMNyPqC12O4&ved=0ahUKEwi0vuSonIjbAhUQtlMKHVbjAt8QwqsBCC4wAg&usg=AOvVaw3l8tSRmoiawjWmk7_qBL38

Sorry, I could not resist....


----------



## Ajmassa

I bought a Syrah juice pail almost as an afterthought. Kept it frozen until grape ferments were complete.
I pressed the grapes very lightly knowing I would be re-using. Started it last night and already kicked off.
I’m not sure if it’s going to be disgusting or amazing. I added 300 lbs worth of Malbec skins to only 6 gal of juice. I now have 10 gallons of slop. And now the cap is bigger than the very thick wine.
I bumped the sugar to over 1.100 thinking this thing will be loaded with tannin and I’ll need high abv and high acid to balance. Not going for traditional Syrah here. Going for my own creation.
Anyone else fermented slop? Am I on target with my thought process ? Or have I ruined this?


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I bought a Syrah juice pail almost as an afterthought. Kept it frozen until grape ferments were complete.
> I pressed the grapes very lightly knowing I would be re-using. Started it last night and already kicked off.
> I’m not sure if it’s going to be disgusting or amazing. I added 300 lbs worth of Malbec skins to only 6 gal of juice. I now have 10 gallons of slop. And now the cap is bigger than the very thick wine.
> I bumped the sugar to over 1.100 thinking this thing will be loaded with tannin and I’ll need high abv and high acid to balance. Not going for traditional Syrah here. Going for my own creation.
> Anyone else fermented slop? Am I on target with my thought process ? Or have I ruined this?



I've done the same, combining juice with a large quantity of skins of a different varietal, although, in my case, the juice was a kit. You're right, it does make a very thick and sloppy concoction, but follow your normal protocol, punching down as best you can, checking SG of the juice (which is hard to pull out for a test, best done immediately after a punchdown), press around 1.000 as normal. In my batches, wasn't really able to draw off any significant amount of wine prior to pressing, so just scooped slop into the press and allowed the wine to flow out on its own through strainers. IIRC, a little stirring of the must in the press helps to release the wine from the press before actually applying any pressure to it. If you don't get most of the wine out before pressing, you might get some slop squishing out around the press plate. In the end, the product was just fine, and the wine was way better than just a simple kit, and didn't have any of the normally discernible kit characteristics. In the end, the yield was just fine, ended up with a full 6 gallon carboy after racking off of the gross lees. You'll do fine with this process, but it's a little more time consuming.............


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I bought a Syrah juice pail almost as an afterthought. Kept it frozen until grape ferments were complete.
> I pressed the grapes very lightly knowing I would be re-using. Started it last night and already kicked off.
> I’m not sure if it’s going to be disgusting or amazing. I added 300 lbs worth of Malbec skins to only 6 gal of juice. I now have 10 gallons of slop. And now the cap is bigger than the very thick wine.
> I bumped the sugar to over 1.100 thinking this thing will be loaded with tannin and I’ll need high abv and high acid to balance. Not going for traditional Syrah here. Going for my own creation.
> Anyone else fermented slop? Am I on target with my thought process ? Or have I ruined this?



My bet it is going to be good.

Last night I was going to press the carmenere/malbec that I had syphoned the free run off the previous night. But I got home late from work and threw the 2 carmenere and 1 malbec buckets I had picked up at lunch time right into the unpressed grapes. I was just too tired and didn't want them sitting another night, cap was pushing up the towel this morning smell was great. Did add nutrient.


----------



## Ajmassa

I kinda feel ya there. Pressing is a whole lotta work for little bit of payoff for the volume we make. Easier to buy a pail and dump right in.
This thing is so thick tho I know I won’t get that much free run. Gonna be some work to separate everything with pressing and extra racks probably. Just hoping I didn’t overdo it. Might be a Syrah on steroids.


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> I've done the same, combining juice with a large quantity of skins of a different varietal, although, in my case, the juice was a kit. You're right, it does make a very thick and sloppy concoction, but follow your normal protocol, punching down as best you can, checking SG of the juice (which is hard to pull out for a test, best done immediately after a punchdown), press around 1.000 as normal. In my batches, wasn't really able to draw off any significant amount of wine prior to pressing, so just scooped slop into the press and allowed the wine to flow out on its own through strainers. IIRC, a little stirring of the must in the press helps to release the wine from the press before actually applying any pressure to it. If you don't get most of the wine out before pressing, you might get some slop squishing out around the press plate. In the end, the product was just fine, and the wine was way better than just a simple kit, and didn't have any of the normally discernible kit characteristics. In the end, the yield was just fine, ended up with a full 6 gallon carboy after racking off of the gross lees. You'll do fine with this process, but it's a little more time consuming.............



This is a good thing. Reassurance is what I was looking for. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## mainshipfred

I double slopped. Skins from a CS grape batch into a CS bucket. finished fermenting in 4 days, probably 3, then those skins and 2 lugs of Malbec grapes went into a Malbec juice bucket. I fermented this in my cooler since the last one went so fast. Today I'm at .996 and pressing again. Might put them all in the Merlot next.


----------



## JohnT

I have also done similar in the past. The one thing that I learned is to watch the temperature very carefully.

This is not like starting out with dormant packets of yeast. By adding your skins, you are adding considerably more yeast that is also already well established. This results in a much more vigorous ferment. I have had cases where the temp climbed to the point of killing the yeast off. 

Monitor the temp, and if too high cool it down (I use empty soda bottles that I fill 3/4 full with water and then freeze).


----------



## mainshipfred

Well, the skins are in the Merlot. The last batch this spring will be a juice bucket of Carmenere and @Boatboy24 Jim's 9 lugs of skins whenever his is done. MLF on all to start next weekend.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Well, the skins are in the Merlot. The last batch this spring will be a juice bucket of Carmenere and @Boatboy24 Jim's 9 lugs of skins whenever his is done. MLF on all to start next weekend.



I will probably press Saturday or Sunday afternoon. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I will probably press Saturday or Sunday afternoon. I'll keep you posted.



Thanks Jim, no rush, got plenty to do.

Plus you will have already done MLF on yours and I will have a starter in the skins.


----------



## jburtner

That sounds really good! 300lbs of skins or skins from 300lbs of must?

I did this with skins from three buckets of cab sav must into a merlot kit. Has turned out nice - also did not have kit characteristics 

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## Ajmassa

jburtner said:


> That sounds really good! 300lbs of skins or skins from 300lbs of must?
> 
> I did this with skins from three buckets of cab sav must into a merlot kit. Has turned out nice - also did not have kit characteristics
> 
> Cheers!
> -johann



Skins from 288lbs worth of grapes. No frozen must needed up my way.  (Assuming lugs actually weigh what they say they weigh)


----------



## pgentile

By the way both the South African and Chilean(Toro Negro) juice buckets state: Contains grape musts, wine yeast, tartaric acid and tannin. They also state separately they may contain sulfites.


----------



## Ajmassa

JohnT said:


> I have to admit, that is a pretty nice crusher you got there @Ajmassa5983 !!! Perhaps you could send me a bottle of this vintage??
> 
> Use it in good health!




Chilean update. Crusher was fantastic but needed some prep.
First I needed some sort of table. Even saw horses would have needed to be built up. Had an ‘aha’ moment at work looking at the painters baker. Sure as sh** she fit like a glove.
Next I needed a chute and was night before grapes. I cut up some duct metal and did what I had to do. And yes, I am fully aware that’s not the correct material to use. It got the job done for now.
Sucker is HEAVY. And awkward. Got it down the basement in one piece and I was ready to roll. Right away Machine was so powerful it was spraying me with grape juice and skins. I did not anticipate that. Lol. Gypsy rigged a cover and then smooth sailing.
New press worked great too. I pumped free run from the brutes using the pvc method for the 1st time. Leaving caps intact and poking through Worked perfectly. Separated the press run for now. Only a couple gallons anyway. I pressed lightly since I’m reusing skins. And about 20gal of free run before racking. Gross lees is also much less then my other grape batches. Good thing? Not sure. Still keeping the 2 ferments separate aside from press run.
Of course I’ll be sending you some @JohnT, would only be right. I’m super stoked about this Malbec. I made sure to make this as well as possible. Quality grapes. Healthy ferment. Great extraction. Very dry. Will be my virgin barrel run too. Just gotta not screw that up. Its at that cool post AF point where it tastes like it could be bottled and drank right now. All that and you what I’m getting multiple requests for? Freaking Dragons Blood! Go figure.
I don’t know how I’m going to keep doing this 1-2x a year. You really need to love it. Because I am burnt to freaking crisp. The rest of life doesn’t stop just because I got some grapes. The room is a hot mess, got another ferment probably ready to press tonight if I wanted, and family and work will always be the top of the totem pole. Definitely gonna need help in the fall. Here’s some more pics....everyone likes pics.









These last 2 are from repurposing the skins for a Syrah pail to show the amount of juice by itself (with a frozen chunk floating) vs loading the fermented skins after a full cap. Thought it was cool to see how much volume the skins took up. Sucker is all cap!
Salutè


----------



## JohnT

Great picks Andrew!

I wish I could taste it right now!


----------



## jburtner

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Skins from 288lbs worth of grapes. No frozen must needed up my way.  (Assuming lugs actually weigh what they say they weigh)



Oh cool - I'll be doing similar quantity but I haven't decided yet which kit or juice to use on the second run. Skins will be Syrah, Malbec, Petit Verdot - And I figure I'll use whatever that second run is for a blending source so not sure. I still have one carboy of merlot in bulk age that I did this with last year so maybe something other than a merlot... CS might be pretty good with those blends but I also have a carboy of CS in bulk age now too...

Hmm... Have three weeks or so to think about it..

Cheers!
-johann


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> By the way both the South African and Chilean(Toro Negro) juice buckets state: Contains grape musts, wine yeast, tartaric acid and tannin. They also state separately they may contain sulfites.



That's interesting, I just looked at my empty buckets and have a Toro Negro Malbec that doesn't say anything and neither does my SA CS. But my Chilean a Merlot and a last falls Cali bucket of Zinfandel do have instructions which does not include adding yeast. Simply says to open the bucket and let it warm to room temperature then gives instruction on fermenting to a certain SG, racking and clearing. For me it's a little disappointing not knowing what you are getting ahead of time.


----------



## jburtner

I wonder what the typical procedures are for making buckets of juice - particularly reds. Is there a cold maceration then press or something?

I would expect whites to be a simple destem / crush / press and probably some level of sulphite but hopefully no other additions unles requested. 

Cheers 
-johann


----------



## mainshipfred

From what I gather reading your posts you get your must from a source that accepts special order requests. I don't think there are the same options from these SA or Chilean juice producers. Another thing I found interesting this spring and @Boatboy24 Jim pointed out to me is the harvest date on his Chilean Carmenere grapes was February 5th or so and he received them last week. I never thought to look at my other grape baskets. That's 3 months after harvest, however the grapes looked to be in great shape.


----------



## Ajmassa

Removed post.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> That's interesting, I just looked at my empty buckets and have a Toro Negro Malbec that doesn't say anything and neither does my SA CS. But my Chilean a Merlot and a last falls Cali bucket of Zinfandel do have instructions which does not include adding yeast. Simply says to open the bucket and let it warm to room temperature then gives instruction on fermenting to a certain SG, racking and clearing. For me it's a little disappointing not knowing what you are getting ahead of time.



Unfortunately my Toro Negro carmenere and malbec buckets came with "gape musts". 



SA buckets


----------



## jburtner

i’d pay extra for that... ha!

-j


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Unfortunately my Toro Negro carmenere and malbec buckets came with "gape musts".
> View attachment 48686
> 
> 
> SA buckets
> View attachment 48687



I guess I didn't look close enough. All of my buckets have the same thing in the warning. Would be nice if they would at least let you know what yeast they used.


----------



## cmason1957

mainshipfred said:


> I guess I didn't look close enough. All of my buckets have the same thing in the warning. Would be nice if they would at least let you know what yeast they used.


I would be very surprised if it were anything but Ec1118.


----------



## mainshipfred

cmason1957 said:


> I would be very surprised if it were anything but Ec1118.



Unfortunately I agree. for no particular reason EC1118 is my last resort. I don't even use it in fruit wines.


----------



## Ajmassa

I’m not sold. This may just mean natural yeast and tannin within the juice. According to musto co. (A pretty respectable company who also sells Toro Negro pails) claim that only Fresco pails contain yeast. And it says yeast on the pail possibly to warn it can ferment without adding your own.


----------



## cmason1957

mainshipfred said:


> Unfortunately I agree. for no particular reason EC1118 is my last resort. I don't even use it in fruit wines.



The good thing about it, at least I suppose this is good, it will ferment a shoe if called upon to try. It is a failsafe, low foaming, ferments to completion yeast. Those are also the reasons most kits include it. The only thing I add it to is skeeter pee or dragon's blood, which I don't make very often any longer. But I always have a packet or three in my yeast fridge, never know when you might need to try to restart something and about once every two years something goes awry and needs a kick in the seat of the pants.


----------



## JohnT

cmason1957 said:


> I always have a packet or three in my yeast fridge



If you have a dedicated fridge just for yeast....

then all I have to say is...


----------



## cmason1957

JohnT said:


> If you have a dedicated fridge just for yeast....
> 
> then all I have to say is...



Well, it isn't just for yeast, it also gets beer and an occasional white wine put into it. Don't get overly awe inspired, it was the fridge my daughter had when she was at college. It is the larger sized dorm fridge, but still not huge. You can't fit a carboy inside of it for cold stabilizing, that's what my spare extra fridge is in the basement for. Yes, I do have two fridges in the wine area.


----------



## Ajmassa

I really don’t like not knowing for sure of this yeast in juice pails situation. My focus has shifted to mainly grapes, but I still like to make at least 1 bucket a season. 
I emailed Musto and then I called because I didn’t feel like waiting. They weren’t able to speak for any juice that they don’t sell obviously- but they did confirm over the phone that no additional yeast is added to the juice. Chile Toro Negro included. Only the Chile Fresco juice has added yeast. 
And the print on the side of the bucket is listing what is naturally contained. The tartaric acid, tannin, and wine yeast is not added.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I really don’t like not knowing for sure of this yeast in juice pails situation. My focus has shifted to mainly grapes, but I still like to make at least 1 bucket a season.
> I emailed Musto and then I called because I didn’t feel like waiting. They weren’t able to speak for any juice that they don’t sell obviously- but they did confirm over the phone that no additional yeast is added to the juice. Chile Toro Negro included. Only the Chile Fresco juice has added yeast.
> And the print on the side of the bucket is listing what is naturally contained. The tartaric acid, tannin, and wine yeast is not added.




I find that odd. No other juice, that I'm aware of, that we consume is labeled that way.


----------



## Ajmassa

Well I also sent a detailed email. Hoping for a detailed response. But this isn’t juice sold for consumption either. It’s for winemaking. It also says “do not consume before fermentation is finished”. My Minute Maid doesn’t say that either. 
I don’t know man. That’s what they said at least. The main thing that makes me think that way is because, well now mainly because they told me. But also they make it a point to specify only Fresco has added yeast. And they sell many brands of juice and must. 
What’s funny is that I heard it from the horse’s mouth- but still feel like the person I spoke with might not be as dialed in to the process as I’d want. After all they are only redistributing. 
Either way I think it’s healthy to QUESTION EVERYTHING! 
Website says none. Phonecall said none. Bucket print contradicts it. Juice fermenting so damn easily also contradicts. Hung jury until further notice.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well I also sent a detailed email. Hoping for a detailed response. But this isn’t juice sold for consumption either. It’s for winemaking. It also says “do not consume before fermentation is finished”. My Minute Maid doesn’t say that either.
> I don’t know man. That’s what they said at least. The main thing that makes me think that way is because, well now mainly because they told me. But also they make it a point to specify only Fresco has added yeast. And they sell many brands of juice and must.
> What’s funny is that I heard it from the horse’s mouth- but still feel like the person I spoke with might not be as dialed in to the process as I’d want. After all they are only redistributing.
> Either way I think it’s healthy to QUESTION EVERYTHING!
> Website says none. Phonecall said none. Bucket print contradicts it. Juice fermenting so damn easily also contradicts. Hung jury until further notice.



I agree. But in the end if it makes an acceptable wine all is good.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> I agree. But in the end if it makes an acceptable wine all is good.



Fo sho. Now it’s just for peace of mind. I just want to know. I’m supposed to working on an estimate and keep getting sidetracked by this yeast nonsense! Calling subs? Nope. Calling musto! I gotta get a life. 
My best wine to date is from a juice bucket. A Cab. Unlabeled and accidentally discarded bottle that aged 3 or 4 yrs.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Fo sho. Now it’s just for peace of mind. I just want to know. I’m supposed to working on an estimate and keep getting sidetracked by this yeast nonsense! Calling subs? Nope. Calling musto! I gotta get a life.
> My best wine to date is from a juice bucket. A Cab. Unlabeled and accidentally discarded bottle that aged 3 or 4 yrs.



I hear you on the work thing, I'm trying to make headway on some software coding the past several hours, but I keep getting sidetracked.

My juice bucket wines have gotten better since I started using skins in them, MLF and blending. But my first all grape batch, sangiovese, is still my best to date. Unfortunately there are no more bottles of it left.


----------



## mainshipfred

Been working on a bid myself but fortunately or unfortunately I didn't have time to get side tracked. I too have a need to know. For what reason I can't remember but my mother used to say on different occasions "that's why God gave us a brain" and it has always stuck. If the bucket is listing ingredients it's missing citric and malic acid, fructose and any number of other things. It's aslo funny that buckets from different regions of Cali, Chili and SA all have the same ingredients listed and why is it a warning instead of an ingredient list. I agree with it's healthy to as questions and if it makes a good wine all is good. Being a beginner and as much as I have learned to date I feel I don't know very much yet. Too much information just comes and goes without me retaining it. Although I'm having fun with the inconsistencies that go along with winemaking I wish it were more like math, one question one answer.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Been working on a bid myself but fortunately or unfortunately I didn't have time to get side tracked. I too have a need to know. For what reason I can't remember but my mother used to say on different occasions "that's why God gave us a brain" and it has always stuck. If the bucket is listing ingredients it's missing citric and malic acid, fructose and any number of other things. It's aslo funny that buckets from different regions of Cali, Chili and SA all have the same ingredients listed and why is it a warning instead of an ingredient list. I agree with it's healthy to as questions and if it makes a good wine all is good. Being a beginner and as much as I have learned to date I feel I don't know very much yet. Too much information just comes and goes without me retaining it. Although I'm having fun with the inconsistencies that go along with winemaking I wish it were more like math, one question one answer.



I’m just reporting what the website said and what I was told over the phone. Not trying to convince anyone of anything. And it is 2018 so if you say you believe the earth is flat then I politely respond with “even though I have a different opinion I also respect yours “
Here’s a pic of the Regina bucket just to keep this derailment going even further. No yeast listed. And has been said to me for many years from Procacci Bros that they do not contain any added yeast. 


Luckily I WAS able to get sidetracked because I don’t even want the job anyway. 2nd time re-doing the bid to beat up the numbers. Initially a decent fit-out in old city for a video game developer - but now a hassle that I’ve spent too much time on that on the cusp of being a loser. My grandfather taught me something I’ve held onto as well. “It’s better to not submit a bid rather than to submit a loser”.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’m just reporting what the website said and what I was told over the phone. Not trying to convince anyone of anything. And it is 2018 so if you say you believe the earth is flat then I politely respond with “even though I have a different opinion I also respect yours “
> Here’s a pic of the Regina bucket just to keep this derailment going even further. No yeast listed. And has been said to me for many years from Procacci Bros that they do not contain any added yeast. View attachment 48702
> 
> 
> Luckily I WAS able to get sidetracked because I don’t even want the job anyway. 2nd time re-doing the bid to beat up the numbers. Initially a decent fit-out in old city for a video game developer - but now a hassle that I’ve spent too much time on that on the cusp of being a loser. My grandfather taught me something I’ve held onto as well. “It’s better to not submit a bid rather than to submit a loser”.



Now wait a second, from what I recall from a past thread, don't you have a rep to maintain. If I remember correctly you have been reprimanded in the past on this forum. If you keep politely responding you are going to lose your image. BTW, what is your opinion of the earth? LOL


----------



## pgentile

If the earth is flat what's on the bottom side? How thick are the edges? Where are the edges? Are there stars on the bottom side? Is it a flat square or round? The moon is round. Is the bottom side where the devil is?


----------



## pgentile

Also are there satellite images of the bottom side? Is the government keeping them secret?

Sorry cocktail hour came a little earlier than normal this friday.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Now wait a second, from what I recall from a past thread, don't you have a rep to maintain. If I remember correctly you have been reprimanded in the past on this forum. If you keep politely responding you are going to lose your image. BTW, what is your opinion of the earth? LOL



Wow. Sounds more like a cocktail of booze and some medicinal Paul! Well... flat or round- this thread’s tether is cut. And now in orbit. (“Earth is flat” was an NBA’er Kyrie Irving reference from last year btw)

And mainshipfred, if that’s the case I’m not sure I want that image anyway! And fwiw- not “reprimanded”. I’d say “made aware of WMT rules” a few times by diff moderators. And never for being mean spirited. But tip-toeing that line of acceptance it can be easy to slip up and step across sometimes. I don’t necessarily feel I was in the wrong for all of em- but I do respect the rules once made aware. 
I’m hoping I receive a nice detailed response from Musto to set the record straight about the buckets which you know will be shared here.


----------



## Ajmassa

I’m gonna go ahead and cut the wheel to bring us back down to earth-
Because 2018 Grape and Juice season is 100% underway and now in Full Swing! Currently in the midst of:
-Racking 20+ gal of Malbec off the gross lees and discarding for a few weeks. 
-Pumping out Syrah free run 
-pressing the skins for a 2nd time
-full cleanup - eh..probably tomorrow. 
Then enjoying a Friday night after a very long week. 
***Paul- Über is your friend tonight**


----------



## pgentile

Went and had some dinner all better now. A good bowl of pho and vermicelli will do that.


----------



## sour_grapes




----------



## Boatboy24

Back to winemaking, I'm pressing today. Was only at 1.014 and 1.012 last night, but tomorrow is my anniversary and Monday I have work, followed by a Nats game w/ a neighbor. Sometimes, life really gets in the way.


----------



## Boatboy24

Well, the little buggers were busy last night. Both containers at 0.998 this morning. No worries about pressing now!

I took a taste (in the name of science) and its remarkably smooth already. I'm afraid: don't know if that means the pH has shot up, or the MLF is just cruising along quickly.


----------



## stickman

cmason1957 said:


> The good thing about it, at least I suppose this is good, it will ferment a shoe if called upon to try. It is a failsafe, low foaming, ferments to completion yeast. Those are also the reasons most kits include it. The only thing I add it to is skeeter pee or dragon's blood, which I don't make very often any longer. But I always have a packet or three in my yeast fridge, never know when you might need to try to restart something and about once every two years something goes awry and needs a kick in the seat of the pants.



I agree, EC1118 seems to be one of the universal yeasts used, dependable etc. Another reason for its use commercially and in kits originates from the 1980's when ethyl carbamate (suspected carcinogen) was found in some wines. At the time, the Wine Institute and UC Davis recommended the use of EC1118 or Prise de Mousse, as these yeasts are capable of degrading urea, which is the precursor to ethyl carbamate. Technology changes, so I don't think it's an issue anymore. I know that urea was previously used to supply nitrogen in some yeast nutrient blends, but most high quality blends today have eliminated it.


----------



## mainshipfred

@Boatboy24 Jim and I are going to combine our skins and try our hand at a Second Run batch. Neither one of us has ever done it before. We have 9 lugs of Carmenere, 7 SA Cab Sauv, 2 Malbec and 1 PV. We would like to get 6 finished gallons to split 3 each. any suggestions?


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, the little buggers were busy last night. Both containers at 0.998 this morning. No worries about pressing now!
> 
> I took a taste (in the name of science) and its remarkably smooth already. I'm afraid: don't know if that means the pH has shot up, or the MLF is just cruising along quickly.



Probably just a little of both, plus a little sweetness left in there to knock down the rough edges.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> @Boatboy24 Jim and I are going to combine our skins and try our hand at a Second Run batch. Neither one of us has ever done it before. We have 9 lugs of Carmenere, 7 SA Cab Sauv, 2 Malbec and 1 PV. We would like to get 6 finished gallons to split 3 each. any suggestions?



By second run you mean a bucket on the skins? Adding water and sugar? Dragon blood?


----------



## Ajmassa

With Fred’s skins I think he meant 6th run wine with some sugaracidwater


----------



## pgentile

So it looks like my spring wine production this year will be approximately 64 gallons. Never thought I'd make that much.

200 lbs Pinotage
3 SA juice buckets cab/syrah on pinotage skins
200 lbs carmenere/malbec
3 chilean juice buckets carmenere/malbec on carmenere/malbec skins that I will press tomorrow or monday

One thing I ended up today with is 2+ gls of sangiovese/barbera from last fall and 2+ gls of cab/syrah and 1/2 gl of elderberry orphans that I mixed into a 5 gl carboy with oak. So it's a sangio/barbera/cab/syrah/elderberry. Taste is pretty darn good.

Made it through all ferments so far with no h2s odors like last years malbec. Thanks to @heatherd 's pinotage story I went with bm 4x4 in mine. All other ferments were rc212 with two ferments having a bit of h2s odor but vanished after racking off gross lees. Might be my last ferments with rc212.

Also like say to thanks everyone on this website for all your help and info.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> By second run you mean a bucket on the skins? Adding water and sugar? Dragon blood?



Never looked into Dragon Blood and don't know exactly what it is, we're just going to add water and sugar to the skins.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> With Fred’s skins I think he meant 6th run wine with some sugaracidwater



LOL, you remember correctly and are exactly correct.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> So it looks like my spring wine production this year will be approximately 64 gallons. Never thought I'd make that much.
> 
> Wow, that's a lot. I thought I was doing well at 33 gallons. Hope you have enough bottles and room for the fall harvest.


----------



## Boatboy24

Well, the Carm/Petite Verdot is pressed. Thanks for the assist, Fred. Made things go more quickly. 

We'll see what that 2nd run wine looks like. I know @vacuumpumpman has done a few. Wonder if we can get him (or others) to chime in. All told, we have (I think) 17 lugs of 'used' skins. My thinking was to add 7-8 gallons of water with sugar and acid to maybe get 6 gallons of finished wine out of it.


----------



## Ajmassa

That’s a healthy season with 64gal. More than I’ve got aging in total. 
Ok so now some barrel talk...

I ended up with 21gal of Malbec. 
Still separated with 9gal of each ferment and another 3gal combined press. Unsure if I will barrel age separately or let them blend within the barrel. Either way with an 8gal barrel I have the option which is nice. 
I also have another 20gal of Tuscan blend from fall that will get barrel time. 

Given the vol of wine and an 8 gal barrel I’ve got minimum 4 runs total. That’s too long to wait plus thinking neutral before finished. 
Plus I’d like to let it go longer and get more micro-oxygenation like the pros do for the Tuscan. 
So the plan is now dedicating the new zemplen 8gal to this 21gal of Chilean Malbec. And another new 10-15 gal barrel needed for last fall’s Tuscan. 
Carolina barrels sell ideal volumes for good $ but all out of stock. Anyone with any good suggestions I’m all ears. This hobby won’t stop growing and it’s out of my control now. These are all necessities!


----------



## mainshipfred

Carolina barrels sell ideal volumes for good $ but all out of stock. Anyone with any good suggestions I’m all ears. This hobby won’t stop growing and it’s out of my control now. These are all necessities![/QUOTE]

Just to let you know the Zemplen barrels are shipping the end of June - early July. It takes about a month to get here. There are still 3 - 8 gallon barrels left I might take a second leaving 2.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Just to let you know the Zemplen barrels are shipping the end of June - early July. It takes about a month to get here. There are still 3 - 8 gallon barrels left I might take a second leaving 2.



Interesting. And noted. 
I know it’s said for a new barrel it’s about the #of gal equals the # of weeks for a 1st run and then doubling. But don’t they do new 60gal barrels for 20-24 months commercially?? 
Anyway if it’s 8 weeks then 16 weeks then I’m at 6 months after 2 runs and 1 yr straight for 3 runs. With an 8gal and so much oak contact i can’t seem to find the answer- how long until neutral? Lots of planning needed here.


----------



## mainshipfred

Forgot to mention, if you call Carolina Barrels they are no longer selling these barrels. My last correspondence with him was a text on 2-24 that he didn't know what they were getting if anything. He is a really friendly person to talk to though. I his cell is 828-640-0181.

Rick Foster
Carolina Barrel & Custom Wrx
828-585-4477
[email protected]


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Interesting. And noted.
> I know it’s said for a new barrel it’s about the #of gal equals the # of weeks for a 1st run and then doubling. But don’t they do new 60gal barrels for 20-24 months commercially??
> Anyway if it’s 8 weeks then 16 weeks then I’m at 6 months after 2 runs and 1 yr straight for 3 runs. With an 8gal and so much oak contact i can’t seem to find the answer- how long until neutral? Lots of planning needed here.



If I remember correctly the gallons per week is a guideline. Not having much experience myself I would have to believe it's logarithmic scale when it comes to size of barrels.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Hope you have enough bottles and room for the fall harvest.



I have 200 clean bottles ready to go. I'll need to bottle last falls batches first. But this coming fall I am going to try and do around 60 gls again. A barrel with 2-3 more carboys and I can pull it off.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ok so now some barrel talk...



I have to starting reading up on barrels, I know absolutely nothing. But with one coming this summer I better get with the basics.


----------



## stickman

This is the Demptos 2017 price list, they indicate a 7.5, 15, and 30gal sizes as well as the typical commercial barrels. I'm sure you have to call for availability.


----------



## sour_grapes

Boatboy24 said:


> We'll see what that 2nd run wine looks like. I know vacuumpumpman has done a few. Wonder if we can get him (or others) to chime in.



I did a second run from the fall press of _very_ purple Syrah grapes. Stressbaby made a fair point against this idea:



Stressbaby said:


> Right but your time is not free. It's not the end of the world if you do it and it's no good. But most of us have been there - a carboy full of subpar wine which you can't bear to dump, but it's not good enough to bottle.



To which I replied:



sour_grapes said:


> Stressbaby's point is well-taken. However, *I* have not been there. Some things you have to learn for yourself. One simple reason I decided to go forward is, frankly, just to get one more practice turn at winemaking from grapes. Maybe the second time I press, the "purple typhoon" will have a smaller footprint. Maybe I will learn something that will help for 2018.



So, how do I feel now? My "sloppy seconds" are, indeed, subpar. Not very wine-like. More like a wine cooler or perhaps "second-run is to wine what orange drink is to orange juice." Slightly artificial/chemical tasting. However, I am happy enough with it. It's an enjoyable beverage that I intend to drink slightly chilled in the summer months. Or make sangria with it.

As for volume, this is what I did. I had the skins from about 15 gallons of first-run wine, to which I added just over 6 gallons of acidulated water. So just under 50% of initial volume.


----------



## mainshipfred

So would you do it again?
I assume you chapitalized as well.
Did you add any tannin or color enhancing agents?


----------



## Boatboy24

Thanks @sour_grapes . What was your volume of grapes in the first run batch? I'm guessing around 300lbs.


----------



## Johnd

Best use I’ve found so far for once pressed skins, is as an adjunct to a kit wine, and did so with the last three kits produced. IMHO, the results were pleasantly surprising, nice boost in all the things we try to boost in kits.


----------



## mainshipfred

Well if the tiny bubbles are a true indicator of MLF my all grape SA CS and Chilean Merlot are very actively going through it naturally. Funny the juice buckets of SA CS with used skins and the Malbec with the CS skins and 2 lugs of grapes are not. The Merlot juice bucket has the used skins from the CS and Malbecand no Merlot grapes and was the last one I did.


----------



## pgentile

Johnd said:


> Best use I’ve found so far for once pressed skins, is as an adjunct to a kit wine, and did so with the last three kits produced. IMHO, the results were pleasantly surprising, nice boost in all the things we try to boost in kits.


And juice buckets.


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> Best use I’ve found so far for once pressed skins, is as an adjunct to a kit wine, and did so with the last three kits produced. IMHO, the results were pleasantly surprising, nice boost in all the things we try to boost in kits.



Hoping for similar results for my ‘Syrah juice pail with once used skins’ mud ferment. But I’m calling it “Syrah Ripasso de Malbec”. — fancy name sounds legit. Actually, after proper barrel time I can call it:
‘Syrah Ripasso de Malbec Superiore’ 
Likely 6.5 gal after racking today. 
But I’m takin a tip from @JohnT and now giving the pomace to the garden. Ashes to ashes dust to dust. N-P-K nutes are typically nitrogen heavy for spring vegetation growth anyway so should serve well.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Well if the tiny bubbles are a true indicator of MLF my all grape SA CS and Chilean Merlot are very actively going through it naturally. Funny the juice buckets of SA CS with used skins and the Malbec with the CS skins and 2 lugs of grapes are not. The Merlot juice bucket has the used skins from the CS and Malbecand no Merlot grapes and was the last one I did.



‘Naturally’ meaning after adding commercial mlb? Lol
Some carboys I have look active while nothing from others - and of the same wine. Which is becoming par for the course. I pay “visual signs” no mind now since the tests never seem to correlate with visible signs. 
I will however be giving everything a shot in the arm today. Just an extra 1/2 dose of opti malo to light a fire under the mlb’s ass. I’ve done that to every MLF so far and results haven’t given me a reason to change that. Plus I was flirting with alpha’s ph tolerance at crush.


----------



## Johnd

pgentile said:


> And juice buckets.



Never done a juice bucket, other than frozen white juice, but I’d imagine that the results would be similarly positive.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> ‘Naturally’ meaning after adding commercial mlb? Lol
> Some carboys I have look active while nothing from others - and of the same wine. Which is becoming par for the course. I pay “visual signs” no mind now since the tests never seem to correlate with visible signs.
> I will however be giving everything a shot in the arm today. Just an extra 1/2 dose of opti malo to light a fire under the mlb’s ass. I’ve done that to every MLF so far and results haven’t given me a reason to change that. Plus I was flirting with alpha’s ph tolerance at crush.



Nope, nothing added yet. Was holding off till tomorrow or Tuesday.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> So would you do it again?
> I assume you chapitalized as well.
> Did you add any tannin or color enhancing agents?





Boatboy24 said:


> Thanks @sour_grapes . What was your volume of grapes in the first run batch? I'm guessing around 300lbs.



Fred, I am not sure, really, if I would do it again. I agree with @Johnd , it would have been better to use them with a kit or juice bucket. But, even in absence of a kit/bucket, I think my answer is "yes, probably I would." Yes, I chaptalized up to ~1.090 (if memory serves) and added

Jim, this was from 200 lbs of grapes. I got very good yield from that, as I got ~15 gallons.


----------



## heatherd

pgentile said:


> So it looks like my spring wine production this year will be approximately 64 gallons. Never thought I'd make that much.
> 
> 200 lbs Pinotage
> 3 SA juice buckets cab/syrah on pinotage skins
> 200 lbs carmenere/malbec
> 3 chilean juice buckets carmenere/malbec on carmenere/malbec skins that I will press tomorrow or monday
> 
> One thing I ended up today with is 2+ gls of sangiovese/barbera from last fall and 2+ gls of cab/syrah and 1/2 gl of elderberry orphans that I mixed into a 5 gl carboy with oak. So it's a sangio/barbera/cab/syrah/elderberry. Taste is pretty darn good.
> 
> Made it through all ferments so far with no h2s odors like last years malbec. Thanks to @heatherd 's pinotage story I went with bm 4x4 in mine. All other ferments were rc212 with two ferments having a bit of h2s odor but vanished after racking off gross lees. Might be my last ferments with rc212.
> 
> Also like say to thanks everyone on this website for all your help and info.



Good for you!! Glad you took my post as a way to adapt your process for a better result.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

I personally like doing 2nd pressings - I do not press very hard or at all on the first run. I take the initial first run volume and divide by 2 and that is how much water I use to start the 2nd batch,and add sugar,and pectic enzyme . I will typically make this a little more sweeter as the wife enjoys it more - it is also a great topper for next years first run


----------



## mainshipfred

vacuumpumpman said:


> I personally like doing 2nd pressings - I do not press very hard or at all on the first run. I take the initial first run volume and divide by 2 and that is how much water I use to start the 2nd batch,and add sugar,and pectic enzyme . I will typically make this a little more sweeter as the wife enjoys it more - it is also a great topper for next years first run



Thanks Steve, our first run yielded about 20 gallons with a light to moderate pressing. I did reuse the skins with a juice bucket for a second batch and again lightly pressed. We only want to make 6 finished gallons. To extract more color I can keep it in my freezer for an extended amount of time while giving it regular punch downs. Would you not recommend using extra tannin?


----------



## Boatboy24

Racked off the gross lees tonight. A hint of H2S, but just shy of 11.5 gallons when I was done. Happy with the yield and the racking seems to have blown off at least some of the H2S.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks Steve, our first run yielded about 20 gallons with a light to moderate pressing. I did reuse the skins with a juice bucket for a second batch and again lightly pressed. We only want to make 6 finished gallons. To extract more color I can keep it in my freezer for an extended amount of time while giving it regular punch downs. Would you not recommend using extra tannin?



I'm a bit confused ? 
you used the 2nd run skins into your Juice buckets and then pressed it again = corect ?

If that is the case - there is nothing left of the skins for extraction


----------



## JohnT

vacuumpumpman said:


> I personally like doing 2nd pressings - I do not press very hard or at all on the first run. I take the initial first run volume and divide by 2 and that is how much water I use to start the 2nd batch,and add sugar,and pectic enzyme . I will typically make this a little more sweeter as the wife enjoys it more - it is also a great topper for next years first run



Have you ever considered pressing the first run for all it's worth? The thought is that what little bit of real wine left behind will not drastically impact your second run.

You could always blend in a little first run later.

HMMMM, this might make for a good experiment.


----------



## cmason1957

JohnT said:


> Have you ever considered pressing the first run for all it's worth? The thought is that what little bit of real wine left behind will not drastically impact your second run.
> 
> You could always blend in a little first run later.
> 
> HMMMM, this might make for a good experiment.



I made a norton chocolate cherry second run port out of pressings that were treated that way. I was helping press at a friend's commercial winery. It made an okay port, but not a lot of norton notes to it, mostly the chocolate and cherry show through and not really enough body for a port.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

JohnT said:


> Have you ever considered pressing the first run for all it's worth? The thought is that what little bit of real wine left behind will not drastically impact your second run.
> 
> You could always blend in a little first run later.
> 
> HMMMM, this might make for a good experiment.





@JohnT - I have tried it many different ways - This is the way I personally like doing it.
you do loose a little bit of your first run , but you definitely make up for it in the 2nd run. 

I find that most people over press the 1st run and get alot of unwanted tannins and such because of their pressing soo hard.


----------



## mainshipfred

Well the Spring 2018 season crush and press is done. Started MLF and a Chromotography test today. Real curious to see if they were indeed going through spontaneous MLF. Can't wait until tomorrow to see the esults.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Well the Spring 2018 season crush and press is done. Started MLF and a Chromotography test today. Real curious to see if they were indeed going through spontaneous MLF. Can't wait until tomorrow to see the esults.



Just ordered a new Chromotography test kit today. My old one was lost in an unfortunate accident. 

Looking good in your winery/warehouse. 20 foot ceilings?

I have the last batch off of gross lees today. The Pinotage is now almost 60 days. No batch has been hit with kmeta yet. I'll wait until after the Chromo test this coming week.

In contrast to yours here is my 100 year old basement/winery


----------



## mainshipfred

20, 22 something like that. Your space looks great. At least you can do it at home but I have to admit a large is kind of nice.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Well the Spring 2018 season crush and press is done. Started MLF and a Chromotography test today. Real curious to see if they were indeed going through spontaneous MLF. Can't wait until tomorrow to see the esults.



I did a control test a few days ago. Your analyzing of your MLF activity had me slightly hesitant that all was good with mine. Many factors. Lots of visible activity in d-80 Malbec but zilch in the others. Ph at crush was 3.2 too. And the @boatboy took the last VP-41 so I decided on Alpha. And temps have been only mid 60°’s in basement. 

Rock and roll! So much for a control test. I do love me some co-inoculation.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Rock and roll! So much for a control test. I do love me some co-inoculation.



Amen my brother!!


----------



## stickman

It looks like you're good with ML, but what happened to that chromatogram? It looks like you kicked it around the basement a few times.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I did a control test a few days ago. Your analyzing of your MLF activity had me slightly hesitant that all was good with mine. Many factors. Lots of visible activity in d-80 Malbec but zilch in the others. Ph at crush was 3.2 too. And the @boatboy took the last VP-41 so I decided on Alpha. And temps have been only mid 60°’s in basement. View attachment 48870
> 
> Rock and roll! So much for a control test. I do love me some co-inoculation.



Can't wait to do my ML testing this week.

Just curious with your test, the Malic acid has no Malic acid?


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> It looks like you're good with ML, but what happened to that chromatogram? It looks like you kicked it around the basement a few times.



Eh. First off, my malic testing acid went bad. I spilled it a while back and tried to salvage the puddle. Eventually it went south. 
I was doing a bunch of stuff that night in the wineroom so I was able to use the pippette method using very small amounts- letting dry and reapplying a few times to keep samples small and concentrated. Applied a couple to the wrong spot forced me to squeeze in samples in between others. 
Also from test to removal was 24 hrs and dried for another 24 hrs. Not exactly protocol but got the job done.


----------



## mainshipfred

Although not close to being done this is the results of my Chromo prior to adding the bacteria. It did show signs of spontaneous MLF although I thought it would be more complete, especially the grape batch of CS
. The Carmenere appears to be done since I used @Boatboy24 Jim's skins which he coinnoculated.


----------



## Ajmassa

@stickman pics of chroma tests can be a pain. It seems I posted one of the uglier ones. In case your ocd is flaring with ticks because of that unattractive results paper- this cleaner pic is just for you.


----------



## stickman

Yea, I was just giving you a few jabs for fun. Co-inoculation seems to work well, I'll get around to trying it some day, I've still been going old-school sequential.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @stickman pics of chroma tests can be a pain. It seems I posted one of the uglier ones. In case your ocd is flaring with ticks because of that unattractive results paper- this cleaner pic is just for you.



Finding a good place to read and photograph a chromo test is helpful, backlighting is the key. In my home, a lampshade that is rectangular, with the light on, has become my go to spot, as it really makes the readings pop.


----------



## stickman

I agree, I also use backlighting and found it does help.


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> I agree, I also use backlighting and found it does help.



Lighting is everything with these chroma test results. Sometimes comparing progress to previous tests can easily be inconclusive. I like to edit the pic too. Playing with edit features can really enhance the spots. 
Ya know, new school. To go along with the co-innoculating


----------



## Johnd

@Ajmassa5983 Maybe it’s just me being biased, but mine are a lot less “run over by a tractor in the dirt” looking!! LOL!!!!!


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> @Ajmassa5983 Maybe it’s just me being biased, but mine are a lot less “run over by a tractor in the dirt” looking!! LOL!!!!!



No your not biased—-just anal. 
Lol. After I edited them I thought “dammit. Johns looks the same!”


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> No your not biased—-just anal.



Damn, busted!!


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Can't wait to do my ML testing this week.
> 
> Just curious with your test, the Malic acid has no Malic acid?



I compromised the acid after re-bottling some spilled malic last year. And now it had some nasty bacteria growth in there. I filled out the paper before I noticed it. No biggie. 
I’ll probably let the new wines go through all of June before I rack and hit with protection. No need to rush. Using the malic strips in the past I saw complete chroma results while strips didn’t. And My fall wines showed full completion but as you can see now have slight malic spots. 
So when in doubt- Im waiting even longer. Being properly topped up I’d feel comfortable going all summer I had to. Another month should be cool I think.


----------



## mainshipfred

Being properly topped up I’d feel comfortable going all summer I had to. Another month should be cool I think.[/QUOTE]

I agree, since having trouble in the past with MLF I've been rethinking S02 quantities. I know there will be other opinions and I may be missing the point in some areas. But I still can't grasp the theory of adding sulfites at or prior to cruch if the fruit is in good condition. Killing off the wild yeast for the short time it is fermenting doesn't bother me. S02, however low, is a product of fermentation and waiting a month or two post AF with properly topped off vessels while assuring MLF is complete shouldn't be an issue as long as there is some S02 present. Lately my goal is 10 - 15 ppm at this stage. Once I'm happy with the MLF and know I'm going to bulk age for a while I'll bump it up to 50-60 ppm still checking every 3 months or so. What I don't have a grasp on is the Ph/S02 chart. If a wine is intended to be consumed in a year or two does the recommended amount have to be that high or is the recommended quantity based on 5 to 10 years in the bottle. Also, is the recommended amout based on uncertain storgae conditions and not a controlled environment? I'm not sensitive to the taste of S02 but I am to the smell. When I open a bottle of wine what I mostly smell is S02 and it's hard to get anything else.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Being properly topped up I’d feel comfortable going all summer I had to. Another month should be cool I think.



I agree, since having trouble in the past with MLF I've been rethinking S02 quantities. I know there will be other opinions and I may be missing the point in some areas. But I still can't grasp the theory of adding sulfites at or prior to cruch if the fruit is in good condition. Killing off the wild yeast for the short time it is fermenting doesn't bother me. S02, however low, is a product of fermentation and waiting a month or two post AF with properly topped off vessels while assuring MLF is complete shouldn't be an issue as long as there is some S02 present. Lately my goal is 10 - 15 ppm at this stage. Once I'm happy with the MLF and know I'm going to bulk age for a while I'll bump it up to 50-60 ppm still checking every 3 months or so. What I don't have a grasp on is the Ph/S02 chart. If a wine is intended to be consumed in a year or two does the recommended amount have to be that high or is the recommended quantity based on 5 to 10 years in the bottle. Also, is the recommended amout based on uncertain storgae conditions and not a controlled environment? I'm not sensitive to the taste of S02 but I am to the smell. When I open a bottle of wine what I mostly smell is S02 and it's hard to get anything else.[/QUOTE]

On MLF, my goal is 0 ppm til MLF is over, along with good sanitation practices and topping up. 

As far as bottling sulfite, try to adhere to the minimums based on pH at bottling time, which should maintain your wine safely for a long time in the bottle. Poor storage conditions will certainly have adverse effects on long term storage, as will crappy corks. I’ve always wanted to take a sulfite reading at bottling, and again at intervals in time, like every year for 10 years to see how it dissipates in the bottle. Think I’ll google for a study........


----------



## mainshipfred

I've never seen a high/low chart, just the one liner. I tried to google it but didn't have any luck.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> I've never seen a high/low chart, just the one liner. I tried to google it but didn't have any luck.



The chart I use has two curved lines, one for .8 molecular level (for whites) and one for .5 molecular level (for reds). I consider these points along the curve to be the minimums, you can always elect to add more.


----------



## Johnd

This is the one that I refer to for sulfite levels


----------



## stickman

That is the same graph that I use; the top line is .8 molecular, and the bottom line for red wine is .5 molecular so2.


----------



## pgentile

Johnd said:


> On MLF, my goal is 0 ppm til MLF is over, along with good sanitation practices and topping up.



I have adopted this approach as well. I'll know this coming week it's progression. I'm only expecting the Pinotage to be possibly complete at close to 60 days since crush.


----------



## mainshipfred

I found this chart that gives you highs and lows. It appears the single line graph is the high range.

https://www.accuvin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/How-SO2-and-pH-are-Linked.pdf


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> I found this chart that gives you highs and lows. It appears the single line graph is the high range.
> 
> https://www.accuvin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/How-SO2-and-pH-are-Linked.pdf



Look again and compare your low range values to the red wine line, and high range values to the white wine line. Your graph is showing the range between the two different molecular values. It’ll work just fine for you, use the low range values for reds, highs for whites, good to go.


----------



## mainshipfred

I see, thanks


----------



## Philly

hi
I Am Truly excited for 2018 season, with prospects of access to higher quality Chilean grapes! I’ve purchased in the past from Chile, but only had access to Curico region, which is not necessarily optimal for the type of reds that appeal to my tastes. After doing some reading, I think I am ready to try my hand at Chilean wines again. My goal was to get my hands on something from Alto Maipo, renound for their “Bordeaux of South America’ or a Cabernet from Apalta in Colchagua. 
I found one company, Corrado, in Clifton, NJ, who was able to get the produce for me, but after digging and contacting a company I worked with in the past, Collinwood Grape Co. (they also gave me the option of Carmenere varietal from Peumo, which I’ve not put my hand at, heck, maybe I’ll do a barrel if I the mood strikes me when I see the grapes!) I’m rather particular about the produce I’m willing to buy, mostly because I have an appreciation for a darn good glass of wine. I also don’t want the extra work that comes along with lower quality grapes. These ones have been promised to be free of vegetative flavors and picked at optimum levels of ripeness. I’ve also read that the particular growers producing these grapes yield fruit that is equivalent to the quality I can get from Napa or Sonoma… Regardless, going to be a great year for Cab for me…


----------



## Ajmassa

Philly said:


> hi
> I Am Truly excited for 2018 season, with prospects of access to higher quality Chilean grapes! I’ve purchased in the past from Chile, but only had access to Curico region, which is not necessarily optimal for the type of reds that appeal to my tastes. After doing some reading, I think I am ready to try my hand at Chilean wines again. My goal was to get my hands on something from Alto Maipo, renound for their “Bordeaux of South America’ or a Cabernet from Apalta in Colchagua.
> I found one company, Corrado, in Clifton, NJ, who was able to get the produce for me, but after digging and contacting a company I worked with in the past, Collinwood Grape Co. (they also gave me the option of Carmenere varietal from Peumo, which I’ve not put my hand at, heck, maybe I’ll do a barrel if I the mood strikes me when I see the grapes!) I’m rather particular about the produce I’m willing to buy, mostly because I have an appreciation for a darn good glass of wine. I also don’t want the extra work that comes along with lower quality grapes. These ones have been promised to be free of vegetative flavors and picked at optimum levels of ripeness. I’ve also read that the particular growers producing these grapes yield fruit that is equivalent to the quality I can get from Napa or Sonoma… Regardless, going to be a great year for Cab for me…



Better hurry up. I think the window for Chilean grapes is almost over. 
Also Corrados apparently hasn’t had spring grapes for a couple years now. They have taken orders only to alert at the last minute that they would not be getting any. 
I’ve heard the same thing about The curico area grapes in years past- but the quality of grapes for at least the last 2 years have been spectacular. 
I don’t know anything about the Collingswood joint, but Gino pintos in jersey and harford wineyard near the border of PA in VA both supply the Curico grapes. 
There is one other place that I know of who sell spring grapes near us and they are not the same grapes like the others. Keystone Homebrew. They have 2 locations. One in Bethlehem PA and Montgomgeryville PA.


----------



## Ajmassa

Here is a little synopsis of what keystone offers in the spring. Tho I think they have just finished up their season. http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Wineries-Slides.pdf
They offer exactly what you referred to. They get Puemo Carmenere, and the Bordeaux varietals from Alto Maipo and Apalta- plus others. But typically ordered well in advance. They only import what has been ordered. I don’t think many spring suppliers bring in extra grapes to sell first come first serve style. 

Collingswood grape co seems legit. But they aren’t specific of how they ship and whatnot. It’s not Collingswood, NJ like I thought. Its in Ohio. So if anything I’m assuming they ship as frozen must. I’ve never heard of anyone shipping grapes in anything smaller than half ton.


----------



## pgentile

After I pressed the pinotage 6 weeks ago or so I threw the cake/skins back in the brute w/ lid and placed in my back patio. Completely forgot about it until I pressed my carmenere/merlot last week. Finally yesterday I had a chance to empty both brutes and add to mulch bins. Too my surprise neither brute with skins had any off smells. I was expecting something nasty but it wasn't. Of course this is nothing earth shattering just an observation.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> After I pressed the pinotage 6 weeks ago or so I threw the cake/skins back in the brute w/ lid and placed in my back patio. Completely forgot about it until I pressed my carmenere/merlot last week. Finally yesterday I had a chance to empty both brutes and add to mulch bins. Too my surprise neither brute with skins had any off smells. I was expecting something nasty but it wasn't. Of course this is nothing earth shattering just an observation.



6 weeks is a long time. I'm really surprised there are no off odors.


----------



## Philly

thanks for the info!


----------



## Philly

hi
I do buy my Alexander Valley Cabernet and Dry Creek Zinfandel from Collinwood grape in Cleveland ohio
I am very Happy with the Quality I get from them

i spoke to them today and I do know Collinwood is one of the largest suppliers of quality grapes. They supply wineries from NY to Texas. They do not harvest in curico , too far south the owner said. All internet info points to Maipo and parts of colchagua as the best of Chile. Alto Maipo in Maipo is the foothills of the Andes. Apalta is a high elevation in colchagua and also Aconcagua the mountain between Mendoza Argentina and the west face in Chile. 

Collinwood stocks Corrado with these high quality grapes. This is actually mid season. Most suppliers bring grapes in too early. Chilean grapes need extra hang time
Per the owner 

thanks so I am in time to get my grapes !


----------



## Ajmassa

@Philly — Does it ship as frozen must?


----------



## Philly

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @Philly — Does it ship as frozen must?


Hi 
The Grapes ship in 18lb boxes, fresh grapes in perfect condition , not frozen must
hope this answers your question
grazie 
ciao
philly


----------



## pgentile

Did the chromatography thing today. All but the Cab/Syrah has finished MLF, but it has MLF activity right now. All batches were co-inocculated. I used one packet of vp41, split into 4 portions when I received it. 64 gallons in all. The sangiovese/barbera is from last fall. Pinotage is at 60 days today. All other are less than that.


----------



## Johnd

pgentile said:


> Did the chromatography thing today. All but the Cab/Syrah has finished MLF, but it has MLF activity right now. All batches were co-inocculated. I used one packet of vp41, split into 4 portions when I received it. 64 gallons in all. The sangiovese/barbera is from last fall. Pinotage is at 60 days today. All other are less than that.
> 
> 
> View attachment 49087



Nice backlighting, good looking test. Funny how just the one isn’t done, anything different in its background?


----------



## pgentile

Johnd said:


> Nice backlighting, good looking test. Funny how just the one isn’t done, anything different in its background?



The cab/syrah were juice buckets from SA, I was originally planning to put the pinotage skins in with them but got the buckets before the pinotage was finished and never put them in. The chilean buckets went on the chilean skins. The pinotage was bm4x4 and the rest rc212 yeast-wise. 

Two all grape batches and chilean buckets with skins MLF completed already. Jjuice buckets from SA without skins still has a ways to go.

So who knows what actually is in a SA juice bucket as far so2. Numbers were all good, smell is good. 

But it seems to be visibly going through MLF at this point


----------



## Johnd

pgentile said:


> The cab/syrah were juice buckets from SA, I was originally planning to put the pinotage skins in with them but got the buckets before the pinotage was finished and never put them in. The chilean buckets went on the chilean skins. The pinotage was bm4x4 and the rest rc212 yeast-wise.
> 
> Two all grape batches and chilean buckets with skins MLF completed already. Jjuice buckets from SA without skins still has a ways to go.
> 
> So who knows what actually is in a SA juice bucket as far so2. Numbers were all good, smell is good.
> 
> But it seems to be visibly going through MLF at this point



You probably hit the nail on the head, a little sulfite in the juice bucket to inhibit the wildlings in there, a bit less hospitable environment, a bit slower result. Hope it finishes out quickly from here.


----------



## Ajmassa

Paul that’s a damn healthy looking MLF. Good deal. I’ve got no actual logic to back this up- but it seems like co-inoculation in wine from grapes or juice with active skins seems to fair MUCH better for MLF. I think skins really help it along. 
And I really don’t know what to make of this- but figure its worth pointing out. — I did a chroma test 10 days ago with only about 40% of wine showing activity yet all showed close to completion. Now 10 days later activity still very strong in the 40% plus the rest now too. And strong. Pop a bung and surface looks like tiny Mexican jumping beans popping out the surfaces. And I must admit I’ve only stirred up lees once early on. No plans to stabilize for at least another month.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Paul that’s a damn healthy looking MLF. Good deal. I’ve got no actual logic to back this up- but it seems like co-inoculation in wine from grapes or juice with active skins seems to fair MUCH better for MLF. I think skins really help it along.
> And I really don’t know what to make of this- but figure its worth pointing out. — I did a chroma test 10 days ago with only about 40% of wine showing activity yet all showed close to completion. Now 10 days later activity still very strong in the 40% plus the rest now too. And strong. Pop a bung and surface looks like tiny Mexican jumping beans popping out the surfaces. And I must admit I’ve only stirred up lees once early on. No plans to stabilize for at least another month.



Thanks, very pleased where everything is at this spring with wine. 

I agree with your co-inoculation hypothesis. Skins make a difference on many levels it seems.

One of my carmenere/malbec carboys is doing that and the cab/syrah is. But just like AF there might be a period of degassing from MLF even though sometimes there seems to be no visible activity for some and yet MLF completes.

Not going to add any kmeta for a few weeks yet here either. 

Now to decide what getting oak and how much and what kind.


----------



## Ajmassa

How bout oak from the zemplen forests? In a bunch of staves. With metal rings around them?


----------



## pgentile

Some hungarian staves?? works for me.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’ve got no actual logic to back this up- but it seems like co-inoculation in wine from grapes or juice with active skins seems to fair MUCH better for MLF. I think skins really help it along.



I can’t say that I’ve studied about th effects of the skins, and they certainly provide access to nutrients, and based upon what we know about the environmental factors that influence the MLB, the following coinoculation factors are favorable:

Low pH inhibits MLB - pH is generally increasing during AF and MLF - this is a positive
Low temps inhibit MLB - temps are generally rising during AF - this is a positive
High ABV inhibits MLB - ABV is near zero at inoculation, and increases over time, giving MLB a chance to establish and acclimate as the ABV increase - big positive compared to dumping them into a wine with ABV already in the teens
SO2 inhibits MLB - though yeasts produce it at different rates, like ABV, MLB establish in near zero environment and acclimate to the rising levels. 

Just my two cents worth......


----------



## Ajmassa

-


Johnd said:


> I can’t say that I’ve studied about th effects of the skins, and they certainly provide access to nutrients, and based upon what we know about the environmental factors that influence the MLB, the following coinoculation factors are favorable:
> 
> Low pH inhibits MLB - pH is generally increasing during AF and MLF - this is a positive
> Low temps inhibit MLB - temps are generally rising during AF - this is a positive
> High ABV inhibits MLB - ABV is near zero at inoculation, and increases over time, giving MLB a chance to establish and acclimate as the ABV increase - big positive compared to dumping them into a wine with ABV already in the teens
> SO2 inhibits MLB - though yeasts produce it at different rates, like ABV, MLB establish in near zero environment and acclimate to the rising levels.
> 
> Just my two cents worth......



Understood. But the couple MLFs I’ve done with just a small amount of skins haven’t done as well as the full grape batches-with all other variables the same. I don’t know. Just seemed like grape skins help it out even more. 
And it also seems like having a low abv enviroment helps all the other tolerances. And a 3.2 ph, low temp, or 35ppm So2 are much less an issue when inoculated early AF. 
Using active yeast and mlb loaded skins in a 2nd ferment (I’ve done twice now) it’s pretty wild to see how fast both AF and MLF are able to finish too.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just like native yeast grapes also have naturally occuring MLB although they seem to call it LAB. 

https://winemakermag.com/665-the-biology-of-malolactic-bugs


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Using active yeast and mlb loaded skins in a 2nd ferment (I’ve done twice now) it’s pretty wild to see how fast both AF and MLF are able to finish too.



Everything is taking off running and hungry. AF usually takes about 3 days in this scenario.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Just like native yeast grapes also have naturally occuring MLB although they seem to call it LAB.
> 
> https://winemakermag.com/665-the-biology-of-malolactic-bugs



Good read


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> -
> 
> Understood. But the couple MLFs I’ve done with just a small amount of skins haven’t done as well as the full grape batches-with all other variables the same. I don’t know. Just seemed like grape skins help it out even more.
> And it also seems like having a low abv enviroment helps all the other tolerances. And a 3.2 ph, low temp, or 35ppm So2 are much less an issue when inoculated early AF.
> Using active yeast and mlb loaded skins in a 2nd ferment (I’ve done twice now) it’s pretty wild to see how fast both AF and MLF are able to finish too.



I certainly didn’t mean to rule out the potential positive aspects of having skins present, just don’t know anything definitive about it, other than the fact that the skins and pulp have nutritional value.....and that’s a big plus too!


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Just like native yeast grapes also have naturally occuring MLB although they seem to call it LAB.
> 
> https://winemakermag.com/665-the-biology-of-malolactic-bugs



Yessir. During my high ph/MLF/Lysozyme adventure last fall I had the joy of learning ALL about LAB and wine spoilage. Searching “LAB” produces more detailed results. so I assume it is the more accepted scientific term. But I’ll stick with MLB for sake of keeping simple. 
Your post reminded me to share something I found a while back. Not tons of info on how bound So2 actually affects MLF but I came across a paper noting “liberated so2”. (I don’t know why but that term made me laugh). Then led me to google ‘corbonyl compounds’ followed by aldehydes and ketones then acetaldehyde and down the wormhole I went. Probably have forgotten 90% of it by now tho. 

https://www.extension.iastate.edu/wine/lactic-acid-bacteria-and-wine-spoilage


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> I certainly didn’t mean to rule out the potential positive aspects of having skins present, just don’t know anything definitive about it, other than the fact that the skins and pulp have nutritional value.....and that’s a big plus too!



As long as it wasn’t intentional I can let it slide....this time. 
I wouldn’t expect anyone to fully agree tho because it’s literally NEVER mentioned. Before my 1st MLF I did lots of reading. More than a Dozen studies of sequential vs co-inoc. They all mentioned everything we already know regarding inhibitors. But another big difference aside from low abv - *I think- is the skins. And Overlooked by all those studies . I am not a professional scientist- I’m just a dude. But I’ll bet donuts to dollars that the presence of skins does a little somethin somethin for the mlb. 
I’ve now done 7 separate MLF’s- all co-inoculated. And the only 2 that didn’t quite fully finish were juice buckets with a few handfuls of fresh grapes added- the rest were either full grapes or active skins to a juice pail. Just MY 2 cents worth.


----------



## stickman

The following was taken from a UC Davis paper. It seems that the skins are bringing in nutrients via the solids and old yeast that are in the process of autolysis. 

The malolactic conversion is stimulated by autolysis of the
yeast. Extended skin contact and higher solids levels are also stimulatory to the lactic
acid bacteria. In contrast to the yeast, the bacteria require the presence of several
amino acids. That means that they cannot synthesize all 20 amino acids from
ammonia. Strains vary in which amino acids are required. Yeast release amino acids
at the end of fermentation, so amino acid limitation is not usually a problem unless the
bacteria are inoculated and the conversion expected before this release occurs. We
have found that the malolactic conversion occurs more readily pre-yeast fermentation
or after the release of the amino acids (post-fermentation), but is less likely to occur if
inoculated during the active phase of the alcoholic fermentation. Several proprietary
mixes of lactic acid nutrients are available, but if added early in the fermentation may
also stimulate yeast growth and metabolism. Again it is important to time nutrient
additions so that the desired population is the one that is fed.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> As long as it wasn’t intentional I can let it slide....this time.



Don’t push your luck.......LOL!


----------



## Johnd

stickman said:


> The following was taken from a UC Davis paper. It seems that the skins are bringing in nutrients via the solids and old yeast that are in the process of autolysis.
> 
> The malolactic conversion is stimulated by autolysis of the
> yeast. Extended skin contact and higher solids levels are also stimulatory to the lactic
> acid bacteria. In contrast to the yeast, the bacteria require the presence of several
> amino acids. That means that they cannot synthesize all 20 amino acids from
> ammonia. Strains vary in which amino acids are required. Yeast release amino acids
> at the end of fermentation, so amino acid limitation is not usually a problem unless the
> bacteria are inoculated and the conversion expected before this release occurs. We
> have found that the malolactic conversion occurs more readily pre-yeast fermentation
> or after the release of the amino acids (post-fermentation), but is less likely to occur if
> inoculated during the active phase of the alcoholic fermentation. Several proprietary
> mixes of lactic acid nutrients are available, but if added early in the fermentation may
> also stimulate yeast growth and metabolism. Again it is important to time nutrient
> additions so that the desired population is the one that is fed.



Nice find.....hadn’t seen this one!


----------



## pgentile

Racking the Pinotage today, hitting with kmeta and a med fr oak spirals.

The blueberry/malbec is at 11 months, opened a bottle yesterday and although pretty good, apparently in my haste to make room for last years fall harvest I didn't degas fully. Going to dumb in carboy today degas and bottle again in a day or two. No sediment in bottles.

Bottling pear/pineapple that is six months old. It is crystal clear and degassed.

Cab/syrah and carmenere/malbec batches I'm going to wait another 4 weeks before kmeta and oak.


----------



## Boatboy24

Racking my Carmenere/PV this weekend. Chromo the other day showed MLF is done (probably has been for a bit, as I coinoculated). Got a fairly significant green pepper essence when I took a big sniff. That's a bit disappointing.


----------



## jburtner

I have some hint of green pepper in my PV too. Does that fade?

Thx,
j


----------



## pgentile

jburtner said:


> I have some hint of green pepper in my PV too. Does that fade?
> 
> Thx,
> j



Carmenere tends towards "green pepper' from higher pyrazines more than petit verdot, but pv is a Bordeaux grape which I think overall are higher in pyrazines than other grape. It should fade and develop nicely with aging. I have a two year old carmenere that has developed nicely and any "green pepper" is gone now. Only one bottle left.


----------



## stickman

If excessive, there are various oak adjuncts or tannin products that can reduce the perception of green pepper. I guess it's a personal choice, some people argue that a little perception of pyrazines is a good thing, while others don't want any.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Racking my Carmenere/PV this weekend. Chromo the other day showed MLF is done (probably has been for a bit, as I coinoculated). Got a fairly significant green pepper essence when I took a big sniff. That's a bit disappointing.



Wouldn’t this be a perfect scenario where adding some oak to the primary would have been beneficial? 
But then again- how do you predict when this would be more likely to happen without a crystal ball? Overripe grapes I know of. High pH/low acid maybe. Would brown stems/seeds be considered “overripe” and maybe cause green pepper (or any vegetal aspect)? And what else aside from overripeness?? (Just rhetorical questions. Not trying to derail the thread. Just how my ADD brain tends to work 
It’s something a lot of us strive for I would assume. To be able to stray from your initial plans layed out- and call audibles based on on the grapes themselves. With so many other concerns on crush day it’s so damn difficult to cover all bases.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Wouldn’t this be a perfect scenario where adding some oak to the primary would have been beneficial?



I did use oak in primary. Apparently not enough.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> I did use oak in primary. Apparently not enough.



Eh- the oak for primary to hinder vegetal characteristics isn’t exactly full-proof anyway it seems. And what if you did add a lot more? I’m assuming there could be risks in that too and could be way too tannic. 
So with good lookin fruit, good acid numbers, oak added to primary and everything seemingly on point, any ideas on what the cause could be?


----------



## Boatboy24

Like @pgentile stated, Carmenere can have those tendencies. This is only the second one I've made (if you don't count the 2016 disaster) and the first one had it early on too. Took a few years to fully fall out.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Eh- the oak for primary to hinder vegetal characteristics isn’t exactly full-proof anyway it seems. And what if you did add a lot more? I’m assuming there could be risks in that too and could be way too tannic.
> So with good lookin fruit, good acid numbers, oak added to primary and everything seemingly on point, any ideas on what the cause could be?



What was the BRIX and pH? Not letting the fruit ripen can contribute, and for fresh grapes shipped from overseas, like other fresh fruit picking and shipping, early harvest helps keep them from going bad. My one batch (cab, Malbec) from Chile exhibited vegetal characteristics, at two years old though, it’s not there any longer.


----------



## Boatboy24

24 brix. Can't recall the pH, but I do know I added a little tartaric. Will have to go back to the notes.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> 24 brix. Can't recall the pH, but I do know I added a little tartaric. Will have to go back to the notes.


What yeast did you use? I know some of the yeasts help with under ripe fruit, others enhance it (BDX for example). I tend to go with the ones that minimize the vegetables in the mix, since most overseas fruit is picked earlier than normal. If it doesn't go away, you can always do what @ibglowin did and blend it till it isn't as noticeable.


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> What yeast did you use? I know some of the yeasts help with under ripe fruit, others enhance it (BDX for example). I tend to go with the ones that minimize the vegetables in the mix, since most overseas fruit is picked earlier than normal. If it doesn't go away, you can always do what @ibglowin did and blend it till it isn't as noticeable.




I used D254.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> I used D254.


Lallemand sez: 
_In unripe reds, ferment 25% to 50% of the lot with ICV D254® and the balance with Lalvin ICV GRE™ to help mask vegetative character.
_
They don't come right and say watch for unripe fruit like they do for BDX, so as you know time will hopefully lessen the vegetative aroma_._


----------



## Boatboy24

If anything, I'm dealing with slightly overripe fruit. Though the brix was pretty good, pH was 3.9. I'm not sweating it. It's racked, sulfited and on some French and Hungarian oak now. Time is on my side. This wine probably won't even see barrel time until the end of the year.


----------



## Gabert Grape

Philly said:


> hi
> I do buy my Alexander Valley Cabernet and Dry Creek Zinfandel from Collinwood grape in Cleveland ohio
> I am very Happy with the Quality I get from them
> 
> i spoke to them today and I do know Collinwood is one of the largest suppliers of quality grapes. They supply wineries from NY to Texas. They do not harvest in curico , too far south the owner said. All internet info points to Maipo and parts of colchagua as the best of Chile. Alto Maipo in Maipo is the foothills of the Andes. Apalta is a high elevation in colchagua and also Aconcagua the mountain between Mendoza Argentina and the west face in Chile.
> 
> Collinwood stocks Corrado with these high quality grapes. This is actually mid season. Most suppliers bring grapes in too early. Chilean grapes need extra hang time
> Per the owner
> 
> thanks so I am in time to get my grapes !



Did you ever get your grapes from Collinwood?  He has been promising to e-mail or call when the grapes are ready. But no e-mail/call. I do know that he delivered a bunch to Milwaukee about a month and a half ago and I think it is getting past season. Last Fall he kept delaying my order and finally in November I had to settle for some way over-ripe Tempranillo (very high PH and brix over 30) Needless to say, the resulting wine is somewhat less than promising even after a bunch of correction. 
If anyone can suggest a reliable place in the Midwest (near Chicago) for fresh grapes, I would appreciate the info.


----------



## pgentile

Don't know anything about the Midwest and/or Chicago but a Google search comes with a Santa Fe Grape Dist. Looks like in the fall they have a few semi's park in a parking lot and they sell the grapes straight from the trucks.

http://wholesale-wine-stores.cmac.ws/santa-fe-grape-distributors/2057/



https://www.google.com/search?num=3....64.psy-ab..1.2.144.6..35i39k1.67.60G_lan9SRA


----------



## mainshipfred

Just received this from Zemplen:
I just talked with the cooperage yesterday and they will load the container
Thursday. Custom permit, trucking, train to get to the German port. The ETA to Norfolk is 8/3/18. (Friday)
Hopefully no weather delay, quick US custom clearance and we can bring the container out from the port
the following Monday or Tuesday. We want to send out your barrels on the first available pickup date.
We will keep you updated with the schedule and delivery details.

I don't want to forget anyone so here is what I remember:
I'm taking a 25 and 30, @pgentile & @Ajmassa5983 one 30, @barron4046 or @barrons (if you changed it) and @zadvocate one 25. This leaves 2 of each. If I left anyone out or anyone else wants one let me know.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Just received this from Zemplen:
> I just talked with the cooperage yesterday and they will load the container
> Thursday. Custom permit, trucking, train to get to the German port. The ETA to Norfolk is 8/3/18. (Friday)
> Hopefully no weather delay, quick US custom clearance and we can bring the container out from the port
> the following Monday or Tuesday. We want to send out your barrels on the first available pickup date.
> We will keep you updated with the schedule and delivery details.
> 
> I don't want to forget anyone so here is what I remember:
> I'm taking a 25 and 30, @pgentile & @Ajmassa5983 one 30, @barron4046 or @barrons (if you changed it) and @zadvocate one 25. This leaves 2 of each. If I left anyone out or anyone else wants one let me know.



Hey Fred: Remind me again what you ordered - are these 25 and 30 liters or gallons?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Hey Fred: Remind me again what you ordered - are these 25 and 30 liters or gallons?



They're liters, I'm not quite unto the 25 to 30 gallon yet. LOL.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Just received this from Zemplen:
> I just talked with the cooperage yesterday and they will load the container
> Thursday. Custom permit, trucking, train to get to the German port. The ETA to Norfolk is 8/3/18. (Friday)
> Hopefully no weather delay, quick US custom clearance and we can bring the container out from the port
> the following Monday or Tuesday. We want to send out your barrels on the first available pickup date.
> We will keep you updated with the schedule and delivery details.
> 
> I don't want to forget anyone so here is what I remember:
> I'm taking a 25 and 30, @pgentile & @Ajmassa5983 one 30, @barron4046 or @barrons (if you changed it) and @zadvocate one 25. This leaves 2 of each. If I left anyone out or anyone else wants one let me know.



Looking forward to getting this. You are better than Craigslist Fred, carboys, barrels, etc.

Thanks for following through with this


----------



## pgentile

2018 spring harvest, 64 gallons of fresh grapes and juice buckets, is all in bulk as of this morning, with various oak. Final two batches racked this morning. French and american oak, med to heavy, spirals and chips. MLF complete on all. 

Some excess from racking tasting will be going on this evening. Cab Sauv/Syrah and Carmenere/Malbec. 

Barrel entering the picture in August, fall harvest to think about. Hope everyone is having a good holiday.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> 2018 spring harvest, 64 gallons of fresh grapes and juice buckets, is all in bulk as of this morning, with various oak. Final two batches racked this morning. French and american oak, med to heavy, spirals and chips. MLF complete on all.
> 
> Some excess from racking tasting will be going on this evening. Cab Sauv/Syrah and Carmenere/Malbec.
> 
> Barrel entering the picture in August, fall harvest to think about. Hope everyone is having a good holiday.



Well when I grow up I want to be like you. From spring and fall of 2017 and spring of 2018 I have a total of 70 gallons. One season with 64 gallons would be huge for me, I had 31.


----------



## Ajmassa

Successful MLF.l! Co innocuoated enofem Alpha. 
The color on the Malbec is amazing too. 
Ph surprisingly went unchanged from crush to post MLF at 3.2. Haven’t racked or tested TA yet tho. 
Also went pretty dry with SG at .993. Not sure of my plan yet. Just aging combined with a barrel run might do the trick. But also thinking to tone down the acid somewhat first. I’ll have a better idea after the TA test. Maybe some cold stablezing without any added antacids to naturally drop some out is a thought. Open to suggestions. 
Syrah juice with Malbec skins is at 3.3 and a little less rough on the tongue. Color great but not as vibrant as the Malbec. SG read .992. Feeling very good about the potential of these wines.


----------



## pgentile

Nice to see it's complete. Didn't realize your malbec was that low at 3.2. Remember my problem 2017 malbec was at 3.15. But you already made it past mine where the problem arose in secondary.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Nice to see it's complete. Didn't realize your malbec was that low at 3.2. Remember my problem 2017 malbec was at 3.15. But you already made it past mine where the problem arose in secondary.



Yup- so far so good. Only concern now is optimal acid for aging. I really don’t wanna start messing with it too much. But 3.2 is kinda low. Maybe I’ll just give em a cold soak over the winter. 
And this ph of 3.2 doesn’t even register on “problem scale”. I’ve got myself some fully dry, malo free, healthy wine ready to let Mother Nature and Father Time do what they do!


----------



## mainshipfred

That low a ph probably good you co innoculated, could have had problems. Just checked my Malbec. It finished at 3.39. The juice from the 2 lugs of grapes was 3.84 and I misplaced my noted for what the juice was and I never checked the ph of the Cab skins. All of mine finished in the 3.3 range except the Carmenere 5.51. Like yours, and for the first time, all mine are also promising.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yup- so far so good. Only concern now is optimal acid for aging. I really don’t wanna start messing with it too much. But 3.2 is kinda low. Maybe I’ll just give em a cold soak over the winter.
> And this ph of 3.2 doesn’t even register on “problem scale”. I’ve got myself some fully dry, malo free, healthy wine ready to let Mother Nature and Father Time do what they do!



Congrats on the MLF! Just remember that CS on a wine with pH of 3.2 will drop the pH lower, not raise it......


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> Congrats on the MLF! Just remember that CS on a wine with pH of 3.2 will drop the pH lower, not raise it......



Duh. Of course I’m aware of that. I was just testing you to see if YOU remembered! Good job on passing the test. ........ and thanks for the much needed reminder. 
I don’t know where I’d be without this forum.


----------



## jburtner

Starting to think about 2018 fall grapes. I think i’m interested in a batch of Pinot Noir. Maybe three buckets worth will end up as a good 6 gallon at bottling without squeezing them too hard. Maybe even a bucket each from three different sources for a PN blend. If I could stagger the ordering and receipt of each such that they are 7-10 days apart I could add the next bucket to each ferment to extend the maceration time and keep the ferment active. Perhaps also rig up some cooling mechanism or chamber to make for an extended and leisurely ferment for the PN.

Keeping it fairly simple this fall. Seems like i’ve got plenty stock in the cellar so a batch or so per season for the next while should allow me to focus on the specifics of each 

Starting to compile notes on various sources now and considering production options. 

Cheers!
-jb


----------



## pgentile

jburtner said:


> Starting to think about 2018 fall grapes. I think i’m interested in a batch of Pinot Noir. Maybe three buckets worth will end up as a good 6 gallon at bottling without squeezing them too hard. Maybe even a bucket each from three different sources for a PN blend. If I could stagger the ordering and receipt of each such that they are 7-10 days apart I could add the next bucket to each ferment to extend the maceration time and keep the ferment active. Perhaps also rig up some cooling mechanism or chamber to make for an extended and leisurely ferment for the PN.
> 
> Keeping it fairly simple this fall. Seems like i’ve got plenty stock in the cellar so a batch or so per season for the next while should allow me to focus on the specifics of each
> 
> Starting to compile notes on various sources now and considering production options.
> 
> Cheers!
> -jb



I've been thinking hard about the fall harvest as well. When you mention "buckets" do you mean juice buckets or buckets of whole grapes(lugs)? If grapes you'll need around 100lbs or so to get 6 gallons. T

I like your extended maceration approach. I'll be curious on the progress and outcome.

I'm planning on doing a 3rd year of premium red zin. Starting to build a vertical. Also leaning towards a batch of alicante and a batch of sangiovese with blend in mind.

In 5-6 weeks grapes will start coming in. Think I got last years Zin sept 2nd.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I've been thinking hard about the fall harvest as well. When you mention "buckets" do you mean juice buckets or buckets of whole grapes(lugs)? If grapes you'll need around 100lbs or so to get 6 gallons. T
> 
> I like your extended maceration approach. I'll be curious on the progress and outcome.
> 
> I'm planning on doing a 3rd year of premium red zin. Starting to build a vertical. Also leaning towards a batch of alicante and a batch of sangiovese with blend in mind.
> 
> In 5-6 weeks grapes will start coming in. Think I got last years Zin sept 2nd.


 
5-6 weeks, I didn't realize we were that close. What I'm dealing with is I have a potential new source for grapes but as of now don't know what they will offer. Secondly my local sources somewhat depends on their yield. The nice thing about local is I can monitor the weather and see the grapes prior to purchasing and make a last minute decision. The pre ordered not so much. I plan on making 4 or 5 ten gallon batches and plan on keeping two 30 liter barrels. Tannat is a must and second is Petite Verdot and Cab Franc. After that I'm looking at Syrah, Petite Sirah and Chambourcin for reds and Petit Manseng or Viognier for whites. But I won't rule out a Norton or quality CAB Sauv.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> 5-6 weeks, I didn't realize we were that close. What I'm dealing with is I have a potential new source for grapes but as of now don't know what they will offer. Secondly my local sources somewhat depends on their yield. The nice thing about local is I can monitor the weather and see the grapes prior to purchasing and make a last minute decision. The pre ordered not so much. I plan on making 4 or 5 ten gallon batches and plan on keeping two 30 liter barrels. Tannat is a must and second is Petite Verdot and Cab Franc. After that I'm looking at Syrah, Petite Sirah and Chambourcin for reds and Petit Manseng or Viognier for whites. But I won't rule out a Norton or quality CAB Sauv.


I like your line-up and plan.


----------



## jburtner

It’ll be buckets of frozen must for the fall as I don’t have any sources close enough for fresh. I wish I did but i’m in the middle of TN. 

Three buckets should net a good 6+ gallons of free run so i’ll be sure to have enough for top up and racking losses. Last time I made a three bucket batch I mixed my free run and press wine and yielded about 9gal total. This time i’ll plan to keep separate. 

Brehm already has pre-order pricing out so I may go ahead and commit to a bucket of theirs. There was a place in WA that ships frozen must too but I’ll have to look them up again and I’ll check with Musto when they have some more info too. If I’m able to time the shipping right with three buckets I could extend the active fermentation and maceration out to 3-4 weeks - at least for the first bucket in the series 

Cheers!
-jb


----------



## Boatboy24

@mainshipfred : Are you going with the local group buy?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> @mainshipfred : Are you going with the local group buy?



I'm thinking about it. Just haven't their grape list yet. Still working on the local vineyards though.


----------



## pgentile

jburtner said:


> It’ll be buckets of frozen must for the fall as I don’t have any sources close enough for fresh. I wish I did but i’m in the middle of TN.
> 
> Three buckets should net a good 6+ gallons of free run so i’ll be sure to have enough for top up and racking losses. Last time I made a three bucket batch I mixed my free run and press wine and yielded about 9gal total. This time i’ll plan to keep separate.
> 
> Brehm already has pre-order pricing out so I may go ahead and commit to a bucket of theirs. There was a place in WA that ships frozen must too but I’ll have to look them up again and I’ll check with Musto when they have some more info too. If I’m able to time the shipping right with three buckets I could extend the active fermentation and maceration out to 3-4 weeks - at least for the first bucket in the series
> 
> Cheers!
> -jb


I forgot you're in Tennessee. Ah yes frozen musts, your yield looks right for 3 buckets. I've been eyeing these up the past year or so. Good luck


----------



## bluecrab

Boatboy24 said:


> @mainshipfred : Are you going with the local group buy?



@Boatboy24 Hi. I've been lurking on this forum for a couple years and your post made me come out of hiding. I bought from Harford Vineyard in the past, but now I'm looking for a new source for grapes. Can you elaborate on the "local group buy"? Is this something others can join?


----------



## Boatboy24

bluecrab said:


> @Boatboy24 Hi. I've been lurking on this forum for a couple years and your post made me come out of hiding. I bought from Harford Vineyard in the past, but now I'm looking for a new source for grapes. Can you elaborate on the "local group buy"? Is this something others can join?



Hey @bluecrab . The 'local' buy is something Fred found with the Washington Winemakers. I'm not sure what I'm doing yet, but I'm leaning toward making the longer drive up to Philly to hit Keystone Brewing or Gino Pintos. @mainshipfred can probably elaborate more on what he's found. And he's found quite a lot between that wine club and local growers.


----------



## mainshipfred

@bluecrab I sent this to @Boatboy24 earlier. Received this email this morning. Still nothing final but it's a start. The prices look good so far. Grapes and juice are brought to some parking lot in N VA

*[email protected]*
10:18 AM (1 hour ago)













to Jimgearing





General price and availability email will probably come out next week. Look for end of September delivery on reds and some whites.
Prices are up this year $2.50-3.00 a box, but not due to the usual suspects. US DOT is requiring truckers to sleep, but not while behind the wheel and moving. Electronic logs are allowing increased enforcement of the rules. As a result, freight costs are up significantly. Grape costs are roughly flat.
NEWS NEWS NEWS: We have the ability this year to get a separate and earlier delivery of white grapes.
In the past, we have put white and red grapes on the same truck. White grapes are harvested earlier, so they sit in the warehouse, sometimes getting sold out before we order. They also always lose some vigor.
So... *Muscato*, *Sauvignon Blanc*, *Pinot Grigio*, and *Viognier *look like they can get on a truck by the end of August, arriving here 2-3 days later.
The next batch include *Albarino*, *Johannesburg Reisling*, *Malvasia Blanca*, *Muscato *(different region). The harvest dates for these grapes fall within the range of the reds, so we don't need to ship these early.
We don't have prices yet, but it looks like it will be $35 (Muscat) to $40 (the rest of the whites).
I'm looking for who wants to order *Muscato, Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Grigio*, and *Viognier *for a separate shipment to arrive in the first week of September, and approximately how many boxes.

This is not binding. The question is do we have enough interest to fill half a pallet - 20 boxes or so. Less than that will not be worth it.

Let me know.

Jim


----------



## mainshipfred

I'm going to have to keep monitoring the weather here for local grapes but I'm not sure with all the rain we've been having that this will be the best year for VA grapes. My intentions were to stay primarily local but I have to start rethinking it.


----------



## bluecrab

mainshipfred said:


> @bluecrab I sent this to @Boatboy24 earlier. Received this email this morning. Still nothing final but it's a start. The prices look good so far. Grapes and juice are brought to some parking lot in N VA
> 
> *[email protected]*
> 10:18 AM (1 hour ago)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to Jimgearing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> General price and availability email will probably come out next week. Look for end of September delivery on reds and some whites.
> Prices are up this year $2.50-3.00 a box, but not due to the usual suspects. US DOT is requiring truckers to sleep, but not while behind the wheel and moving. Electronic logs are allowing increased enforcement of the rules. As a result, freight costs are up significantly. Grape costs are roughly flat.
> NEWS NEWS NEWS: We have the ability this year to get a separate and earlier delivery of white grapes.
> In the past, we have put white and red grapes on the same truck. White grapes are harvested earlier, so they sit in the warehouse, sometimes getting sold out before we order. They also always lose some vigor.
> So... *Muscato*, *Sauvignon Blanc*, *Pinot Grigio*, and *Viognier *look like they can get on a truck by the end of August, arriving here 2-3 days later.
> The next batch include *Albarino*, *Johannesburg Reisling*, *Malvasia Blanca*, *Muscato *(different region). The harvest dates for these grapes fall within the range of the reds, so we don't need to ship these early.
> We don't have prices yet, but it looks like it will be $35 (Muscat) to $40 (the rest of the whites).
> I'm looking for who wants to order *Muscato, Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Grigio*, and *Viognier *for a separate shipment to arrive in the first week of September, and approximately how many boxes.
> 
> This is not binding. The question is do we have enough interest to fill half a pallet - 20 boxes or so. Less than that will not be worth it.
> 
> Let me know.
> 
> Jim


@Boatboy24 , @mainshipfred : Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the info. I emailed the Washington Winemakers when their info was originally posted in this thread. I never received a reply, so I thought you may have found a new local group. I'll probably go with Gino Pinto, Procacci Bros., or S&S Grapes.


----------



## mainshipfred

@bluecrab where are you from. I'm assuming somewhere near the bay, Baltimore Annapolis? I'm not ruling Gino Pinto or Procacci Bros but you're probably an hour or more closer them me. Also haven't ruled out S and S. Sitting tight and waiting for everyones lists to come out. I'm viewing no Harford as a forced opportunity to find other sources. Some, for me at least, may work out to be a better option.


----------



## GreenEnvy22

All my muscat are going through veraison now, riesling look like they are starting too.
Gave them a good spraying with Pristine today and now off to the cottage for a week. will see how everything looks in a week.


----------



## bluecrab

mainshipfred said:


> @bluecrab where are you from. I'm assuming somewhere near the bay, Baltimore Annapolis? I'm not ruling Gino Pinto or Procacci Bros but you're probably an hour or more closer them me. Also haven't ruled out S and S. Sitting tight and waiting for everyones lists to come out. I'm viewing no Harford as a forced opportunity to find other sources. Some, for me at least, may work out to be a better option.


I guess my name gave me away. I'm from the Annapolis area. Harford was closer, but the others are close enough. I'll be watching this forum for more info as the price lists come out, too.


----------



## mainshipfred

I just tasted my spring wines. I'm not a huge Merlot fan but after 2 months it has a nice spicy nose and very fruity. Put in an American Oak spiral a few weeks ago. I got it primarily for blending but may just bottle some as a single. The Malbec doesn't have the spice but is also very fruity and no oak in it yet, waiting for a barrel. The Carmenere is very good as well but I can't put my finger on the nose or flavor profiles. It was made with a bucket and 10 lugs of skins. Last but no least is the all grape SA Cab, absolutely awesome. Been in a somewhat neutral barrel for 2 months. Not much oak given off yet and will probably put this in in a new barrel as well. After a year and a half this spring was the first time I felt totallycomfortable with what I was doing and I think the rewards will show. A big thank you to everyone that helped through the initial phases.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I just tasted my spring wines. I'm not a huge Merlot fan but after 2 months it has a nice spicy nose and very fruity. Put in an American Oak spiral a few weeks ago. I got it primarily for blending but may just bottle some as a single. The Malbec doesn't have the spice but is also very fruity and no oak in it yet, waiting for a barrel. The Carmenere is very good as well but I can't put my finger on the nose or flavor profiles. It was made with a bucket and 10 lugs of skins. Last but no least is the all grape SA Cab, absolutely awesome. Been in a somewhat neutral barrel for 2 months. Not much oak given off yet and will probably put this in in a new barrel as well. After a year and a half this spring was the first time I felt totallycomfortable with what I was doing and I think the rewards will show. A big thank you to everyone that helped through the initial phases.



It's all sounding good Fred. I'm ready for the barrel. Carmenere/malbec field blend up first.


----------



## pgentile

Received this email today, check out this availability list Connecticut is not that far away......










Musto's 2018 Harvest Update
Hello Winemakers,

I hope everyone is enjoying their summer. We have been working hard since the South African and Chilean seasons ended to secure your fall fruit. And boy do we have a lot of great options for you this year!





*Grapes Available from Washington State:*

Let's start with Washington State fruit. We have doubled our Washington State program and are bringing in grapes from not only one, but four different AVA's from the great evergreen state. These AVA's include Rattlesnakes Hills, Red Mountain, Waluke Slope, and the Columbia River Valley. Also, one of our growers will be out to visit us in October. Keep an eye on our website for more details coming soon....

Rattlesnakes Hills:
Cabernet Sauvignon
Cabernet Franc
Merlot
Pinot Noir
Grenache
Malbec
Mourvedre
Petite Sirah
Syrah

Red Mountain: 
Cabernet Sauvignon

Waluke Slope
Cabernet Franc

Columbia Valley:
Cabernet Sauvignon




*Grapes Available from Lodi:*

 Old Vine Zinfandel (35 years+)

Which Paul says, "These are head pruned Zins out of Lodi. As you can see veraison has already happened, and now the berries are ripening and coloring nicely." Click here for more information about these head pruned vines here.

Barbera

A great option for Rose as well as a Red Wine

Old Vine Barbera
Alicante
Black Muscat
Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Carignane
Chardonnay
Grenache
Malbec
Malvasia Bianca
Mixed Black
Merlot
Mustcat
Pinot Grigio
Pinot Noir
Pinotage
Petite Sirah
Petite Verdot
Ruby Cabernet
Sauvignon Blanc
Syrah
Thompson Seedless
Viognier
Zinfandel (under the age of 35)
Within the Lodi AVA there is a sub-AVA called Contra Costa. Here is where our Italian wine grape varieties are grown. This AVA has a similar Mediterranean growing climate. The Italian wine grape varietals flourish here and every year the wine from these grapes gets better and better. Located below Suisun Bay and East of the Oakland Hills, Contra Costa is the premier growing area for Italian varietal wine grapes. Many of the vines grown in this area are considered ancient. The Mediterranean climate produces wines with bold features and good color. The soil is deep and sandy, making the grapes fight for their water, only increasing the intensity of the fruit. Think big bold reds, with leathery notes, and supple tannins.






*Grapes Available from Contra Costa:*

Aglianico
Mouvedre
Nero D'avola
Sagrantino
Nebbiolo
Montepulciano

Another interesting region in our wine grape portfolio is our King's River ranch. The King's River Vineyard is located in Sanger, CA - Southeast of Fresno, on the way to Squaw Valley, Tahoe and the Sierra Foothills. The vineyard is made up of 40 acres of white ash & sandy loam soil. The vineyard has been in existence since 1954 and the family has grown everything from grapes for wine and raisins to peaches, plums, and apricots on this little piece of paradise. However, they ultimately decided to focus on what they love most - boutique style wines. Each block is meticulously managed. They thin leaves, drop fruit to secure intense flavors, and drip irrigate as to not over-water the vines. This family definitely produces grapes of distinction. For more information about working King's River Ranch grapes click here.





*Grapes Available from King's River Ranch:*

Albarino
Barbera
Cabernet Sauvignon
Cabernet Franc
Petite Sirah
Primitivo
Syrah 
Teroldego
Tempranillo
The Central Valley, California's agricultural heartland, it is composed of 2 valleys that stretch almost 500 miles down the center of the state. The Sacramento Valley and San Joaquin Valley are bordered on the east by the Sierra Nevada Mountains and by the Coast Range to the west. The total acreage under wine grape cultivation in the Central Valley dwarfs all other California regions.
*



*

*Grapes Available from Central Valley:*

Alicante
Barbera
Cabernet Franc 
Cabernet Sauvignon
Carignane
Grenache
Malbec
Merlot
Mixed Black
Petite Sirah
Pinot Noir
Ruby Cabernet
Sangiovese
Zinfandel
Old Vine Zinfandel
White Zinfandel
Chardonnay
French Colombard
Malvasia Bianca
Muscat
Pinot Grigio
Riesling
Sauvignon Blanc
Thompson Seedless
Viognier
Other grape regions we are sourcing from include - Suisun Valley, Paso Robles, Amador, Napa, Sonoma, and Monterey County. Our next email will be focused on the AVA's above but click here to see our entire Harvest Menu.

Now let's move onto the juices for the fall. We are excited to announce that we will have juices from three different areas of California. We will have juice from the general California AVA, Suisun Valley, and our Fresco Juice Program. The Suisun Valley juices and Fresco juices will need to be pre-ordered, however we will have a rotating supply of our California AVA juices at all times.












*Grapes Available from California:*

Suisun Valley {PRE ORDER}

Chardonnay
Gamay
Riesling
Muscat Cannelli 

California AVA

Alicante
Barbera
Black Muscat
Cabernet Franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Carignane
Chardonnay
Grenache
Malbec
Malvasia Bianca
Mixed Black
Merlot
Muscat
Pinot Grigio
Pinot Noir
Pinotage
Petite Sirah
Petite Verdot
Ruby Cabernet
Sauvignon Blanc
Syrah
Tannat
Thompson Seedless
Viognier
Zinfandel (under the age of 35)
Old Vine Zinfandel
White Zinfandel

Fresco {PRE-ORDER}

Alicante
Amorosso
Barbera
Granbarile
Bourg Royal
Cabernet Sauvignon
Castel del Papa
Il Toscano
Lambrusco
MARZEMINO
Merlot
Montepulciano
Nebbiolo
Nero D'Avola
Pinot noir
PRIMITIVO
Ruby Cabernet
Sangiovese
Shiraz
Valle dei Tempi
Zinfandel
Grenache (Rose)
Zinfandel Blush (Rose)
Blanc des Chateaux
Chenin Blanc
Gewurtztraminer
Il Veneto
Malvasia Aromatica
Moscato
Moscato Italiano
Pinot Chardonnay
Pinot Grigio
Riesling
Sauvignon blanc
Tocai
Trebbiano
Vinho Verde


----------



## Boatboy24

Got that email as well. The lucky buggers that live near Hartford will be able to get their hands on some Red Mountain Cab!


----------



## pgentile

About 3 weeks out from grapes arriving. Over the summer I been leaning towards old school and doing some alacante and sangiovese. But my dark red tannic palate has said otherwise. I have narrowed it down to, besides the red zin, a batch each of two of these grapes, mourvedre, petite syrah, petit verdot, carignane and/or nebbiolo. Never made petit verdot or mourvedre. It's been four year since petite syrah. 

So far petit verdot and petite syrah are the front runners. I have plenty of cab sauv from the spring for some blending down the road,


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> About 3 weeks out from grapes arriving. Over the summer I been leaning towards old school and doing some alacante and sangiovese. But my dark red tannic palate has said otherwise. I have narrowed it down to, besides the red zin, a batch each of two of these grapes, mourvedre, petite syrah, petit verdot, carignane and/or nebbiolo. Never made petit verdot or mourvedre. It's been four year since petite syrah.
> 
> So far petit verdot and petite syrah are the front runners. I have plenty of cab sauv from the spring for some blending down the road,



My definates are petit verdot and tannat. Would also like to do a cab franc and perhaps another norton. Still waiting for the prices and selection from my new source for everything else.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> My definates are petit verdot and tannat. Would also like to do a cab franc and perhaps another norton. Still waiting for the prices and selection from my new source for everything else.



I'm not familiar with tannat. All local grapes for the ones mentioned? I've been eyeing your bottle of norton blend, but think I'll wait for it to age a bit.


----------



## pgentile

Did chromatography on the the australian juice buckets from this summer. 

By the results the cab still has a ways to go, the syrah is closer and the grenache is done with MLF. All three were the same yeast bm4x4 and co-inoculated with MLB Ch16. All three were under 1.000 at 8 days and racked to secondary. In secondary for a few weeks the grenache has been inert, the syrah has large active clear bubbles and the cab has the small pin-prick bubbles usually seen with MLF(at least here). The cab and syrah were the same starting brix, grenache was lower.

I didn't measure TA or Malo with these, but it's interesting to see how the three have proceeded differently. My guess would be I'm seeing the difference in Malo and TA levels in each with visual activity and chroma.

The carmenere/malbec on the test was my last batch in the spring.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Did chromatography on the the australian juice buckets from this summer.


Keep stirring. I always would forget to stir it up a few times a week, when I did it would complete within two weeks. I raise my beer can and drink to your Cab getting done, positive thinking is best!


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> Keep stirring. I always would forget to stir it up a few times a week, when I did it would complete within two weeks. I raise my beer can and drink to your Cab getting done, positive thinking is best!


I always forget to stir too. Thanks for reminding me. Raise my beer can back at you.


----------



## Ajmassa

ceeaton said:


> Keep stirring. I always would forget to stir it up a few times a week, when I did it would complete within two weeks. I raise my beer can and drink to your Cab getting done, positive thinking is best!



Yeah man, Im good for 1-2x before its forgotten completely. Mostly all of mine haven’t needed much hand holding. 
Paul I’d be a tad concerned that the one didn’t take. (Sorry Craig ). And herein lies the fatal flaw of chromatography. Very difficult to determine if it’s started- or when it’s finished. 
But you know the deal for needy batches. (And so does everyone else who’s pulled their hair out from pain in the ass MLF’s)
-Get temps to mid 70°’s
-Stir 1-2x a week
-Adding oak helps for bacteria to latch onto 
and stay out of the lees
- maybe a half a shot of opti malo help get the 
party started too. 
- another test in a week or 2 and you’ll either be at ease- OR you and jgmann67 could be starting a MLF support group


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yeah man, Im good for 1-2x before its forgotten completely. Mostly all of mine haven’t needed much hand holding.
> Paul I’d be a tad concerned that the one didn’t take. (Sorry Craig ). And herein lies the fatal flaw of chromatography. Very difficult to determine if it’s started- or when it’s finished.
> But you know the deal for needy batches. (And so does everyone else who’s pulled their hair out from pain in the ass MLF’s)
> -Get temps to mid 70°’s
> -Stir 1-2x a week
> -Adding oak helps for bacteria to latch onto
> and stay out of the lees
> - maybe a half a shot of opti malo help get the
> party started too.
> - another test in a week or 2 and you’ll either be at ease- OR you and jgmann67 could be starting a MLF support group



Gonna lightly stir in a little bit. I'm not too concerned at this point, it's only been 3+ weeks since it was started. Temp is good. I have no opt-malo left. Ordering some this week though for fall grapes.

Thanks


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Gonna lightly stir in a little bit. I'm not too concerned at this point, it's only been 3+ weeks since it was started. Temp is good. I have no opt-malo left. Ordering some this week though for fall grapes.
> 
> Thanks



Nice. Not sure if your all opti-malo or use one of the many others , but I can offer a little ml nutrient anecdote. 
I’ve used 2 - gopti malo, and microessentials malo nutrient. Both were in the same type of ziplock bag at purchase. In 6 months the micro essentials solidified becoming all rocky. The opti malo kept as new. Stored at room temp. 
And another thing I learned was after struggling to stir topped up carboys during MLF. Wine gets displaced and spills out unless some is removed before. I had a little ‘aha’ moment and started stirring with a racking cane, problem solved!


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Not sure if your all opti-malo or use one of the many others , but I can offer a little ml nutrient anecdote.


I've never used MLF nutrients (other than ACTI-ML to get the bacteria ready for the harsh environment I pitch them into; I pitch MLB post primary fermentation after racking off the gross lees). Never had an issue, other than when I forgot to stir. I'm kinda curious why Paul's Cab didn't get done since he co-inocculated. It's not like the BM 4x4 had a chance to produce too many SO2 like compounds...


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Nice. Not sure if your all opti-malo or use one of the many others , but I can offer a little ml nutrient anecdote.
> I’ve used 2 - gopti malo, and microessentials malo nutrient. Both were in the same type of ziplock bag at purchase. In 6 months the micro essentials solidified becoming all rocky. The opti malo kept as new. Stored at room temp.
> And another thing I learned was after struggling to stir topped up carboys during MLF. Wine gets displaced and spills out unless some is removed before. I had a little ‘aha’ moment and started stirring with a racking cane, problem solved!



Learned the hard way awhile ago also and use a racking cane. I've had a few powder adjuncts over the last few years turn to rock. But usually in the frig.


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> I've never used MLF nutrients (other than ACTI-ML to get the bacteria ready for the harsh environment I pitch them into; I pitch MLB post primary fermentation after racking off the gross lees). Never had an issue, other than when I forgot to stir. I'm kinda curious why Paul's Cab didn't get done since he co-inocculated. It's not like the BM 4x4 had a chance to produce too many SO2 like compounds...



If they each have different levels of malo they theoretically would finish at different times? I'm not concerned with the cab yet, there appears to be MLF activity, not like the syrah but activity. But the grenache never showed anything in secondary and yet finished.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I'm not familiar with tannat. All local grapes for the ones mentioned? I've been eyeing your bottle of norton blend, but think I'll wait for it to age a bit.



I'm going to open a bottle next weekend. It will be 2 months since I bottled it and wanted to wait to see how it melded together. I'll let you know. As far as Tannat I'm bringing a bottle when we get together for the barrels. It's a very big red.


----------



## mainshipfred

And another thing I learned was after struggling to stir topped up carboys during MLF. Wine gets displaced and spills out unless some is removed before. I had a little ‘aha’ moment and started stirring with a racking cane, problem solved![/QUOTE]

I've been using the racking cane ever since you first brought it up a year ago or so. One of the best tip I've gotten.


----------



## mainshipfred

Yesterday I splashed racked my fall 2017 Barbera, Zin and and Chilean Syrah. They all had some nose I didn't care for. Once splash racked everything is good. Checked and adjusted sulfite on everything. Now I have to bottle to make room for the fall harvest. I have to wait though to try my Norton I blended 2 months ago to see if it is what I expected it to be. If so I'll make more of the blend and also bottle some straight Norton. What's left of the Syrah, Barbera and Zin I'll bottle as a single or maybe try additional blending with these. Either way I'll be out of space in my cooler for bulk wines if I don't start bottling. I need a bigger cooler.


----------



## pgentile

Just got Gino Pinto Price List.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Just got Gino Pinto Price List.



Can't wait to get my pricing from the local wine club and S&S.


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Just got Gino Pinto Price List.



Holy crap, they are pricey! $70/lug for the Lanza Cab? Sheesh!!!! Not for me. And @ almost $100/ lug for the WA grapes, they can pound sand. Those were ~$70 at Harford last year.


----------



## mainshipfred

I'm not good enough of a winemaker to pay that much yet. Maybe someday. Juice is probably going to be out for me so I hope some decent prices come along. Would like to make at least 40 gallons.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Just got Gino Pinto Price List.



Thanks for posting this. Nice to see hey felt comfortable bumping up ALL the damn prices! Wtf
Paso Robles clone 9 is new. But maybe just more descriptive this year giving clone #s. 

And what in the hell happened up in Washington this season ???!!! $25 MORE a lug now? The same vines. No drastic weather changes from ‘17 to ‘18. Safe to say those grapes didn’t just magically become 33% better this year. Maybe the teamsters are throwing their weight around the northwest. Either way I’ll pass.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Thanks for posting this. Nice to see hey felt comfortable bumping up ALL the damn prices! Wtf
> Paso Robles clone 9 is new. But maybe just more descriptive this year giving clone #s.
> 
> And what in the hell happened up in Washington this season ???!!! $25 MORE a lug now? The same vines. No drastic weather changes from ‘17 to ‘18. Safe to say those grapes didn’t just magically become 33% better this year. Maybe the teamsters are throwing their weight around the northwest. Either way I’ll pass.



Certainly not worth my driving 3 hours each way.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Certainly not worth my driving 3 hours each way.



FWIW all the prices are similar to last year- 
Lodi Catarina is up a buck
Amador gold up $2
Lanza up $2
LMP up $3

Not too crazy. I can deal. Whattya gonna do—- not make wine??? But wash cab is up $24!

It’s still worth it man. You looked at all the options. And the Harford dude I imagine is gonna have the same exact pricing. 
Any other sources you gotta do legwork to line it up. Keystone worth another look for ya if your adamant. But they were already higher if I remember. .... eh. You’ll come around. I’ll give ya some time to take a step back and reflect. Just like the day Harford closed and you were ready to quit!


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Certainly not worth my driving 3 hours each way.


The Lanza Zin is $58, I paid $56.50 two years ago at Harford, so that isn't bad. Wonder why the Cab Sauv seems so inflated this year? Gotta be a good reason, fires maybe?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I'm not good enough of a winemaker to pay that much yet. Maybe someday. Juice is probably going to be out for me so I hope some decent prices come along. Would like to make at least 40 gallons [/QUOTE
> 
> Yes you are, you are as good as the rest of us.


----------



## Johnd

Placed my order today, 36 lugs of Cab, 30 for me, 6 for @Scott Harbison. Short drive this year, then we’ll be some busy little winemakers!! Got my eye on a 60 gallon Alain Fouquet French barrel for a two year ride.......


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Thanks for posting this. Nice to see hey felt comfortable bumping up ALL the damn prices! Wtf
> Paso Robles clone 9 is new. But maybe just more descriptive this year giving clone #s.
> 
> And what in the hell happened up in Washington this season ???!!! $25 MORE a lug now? The same vines. No drastic weather changes from ‘17 to ‘18. Safe to say those grapes didn’t just magically become 33% better this year. Maybe the teamsters are throwing their weight around the northwest. Either way I’ll pass.



Washington stuff too pricey for me as well. There must be a demand to drive the price though. 

All the old vine zins are $45-55 pretty much the same as last year, Lanza $58. Procacci Bros will probably be $56 for their premium zin.


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> The Lanza Zin is $58, I paid $56.50 two years ago at Harford, so that isn't bad. Wonder why the Cab Sauv seems so inflated this year? Gotta be a good reason, fires maybe?



All the cab prices seem higher, Sonoma Gold $125? Fire, tariffs, gouging, etc etc


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Washington stuff too pricey for me as well. There must be a demand to drive the price though.
> 
> All the old vine zins are $45-55 pretty much the same as last year, Lanza $58. Procacci Bros will probably be $56 for their premium zin.



Demand my ass! There was a hiccup somewhere along the line with Rattlesnake . Overhead at the vineyard, transportation, something. It’s not Pintos. Own fleet of trucks and all others went up only couple bucks. 
Think the home winemakers are paying for some new John Deere equipment. 

And the cabs are always jacked up a little more. That’s no different. Sonoma gold went up same %. $120 to $125.


----------



## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> Placed my order today, 36 lugs of Cab, 30 for me, 6 for @Scott Harbison. Short drive this year, then we’ll be some busy little winemakers!! Got my eye on a 60 gallon Alain Fouquet French barrel for a two year ride.......



Hope Sean___errr—Scott___ knows he just signed up for sorting through 1,300 lbs of grapes all day - of which only 200lbs are his. But learning the trade. Everybody wins.

**the name of a close buddy of mine is Sean Harbison. Hence the subconscious mixup


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Hope Sean knows he just signed up for sorting through 1,300 lbs of grapes all day - of which only 200lbs are his. But learning the trade. Everybody wins.



LOL, it’s Scott, small price to pay to learn to use the C/D, must adjusting experience, and the several bottles of wine that we’ll permanently retire, and 60+ bottles of wine to boot!!!


----------



## Johny99

Looking at published ton prices in Washington, it isn’t the growers getting it! Still just about a buck a pound for home winemakers, gotta pick them up though. My guess it is supply and demand back east, hey we do have great grapes, or perhaps labor shortage issues. It is tough to find pickers right now for pears, and some cherries went unpicked due to lack of pickers. I imagine hand packing lugs is pretty low on most growers priority list. 

But, just to show I care, send me you wish list, with cash and I get everything you need. You’ll have to come pick it up though


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Demand my ass! There was a hiccup somewhere along the line with Rattlesnake . Overhead at the vineyard, transportation, something. It’s not Pintos. Own fleet of trucks and all others went up only couple bucks.
> Think the home winemakers are paying for some new John Deere equipment.
> 
> And the cabs are always jacked up a little more. That’s no different. Sonoma gold went up same %. $120 to $125.



And/or the Washington grapes are currently in vogue. @Johny99 states it's not the growers. I'm sure Gino's wouldn't gouge the Washington grapes exclusively, must be the middle man .


----------



## Ajmassa

Teamsters in the northwest have done some fantastic collective bargaining it seems.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Can't wait to get my pricing from the local wine club and S&S.



Fred - please post S&S when you get their list. 

GP’s prices were generally what I expected. Has Keystone published anything yet?


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Placed my order today, 36 lugs of Cab, 30 for me, 6 for @Scott Harbison. Short drive this year, then we’ll be some busy little winemakers!! Got my eye on a 60 gallon Alain Fouquet French barrel for a two year ride.......



What Cab did you order?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> And/or the Washington grapes are currently in vogue. @Johny99 states it's not the growers. I'm sure Gino's wouldn't gouge the Washington grapes exclusively, must be the middle man .



This was from one of the first emails I received from my local wine club:

Prices are up this year $2.50-3.00 a box, but not due to the usual suspects. US DOT is requiring truckers to sleep, but not while behind the wheel and moving. Electronic logs are allowing increased enforcement of the rules. As a result, freight costs are up significantly. Grape costs are roughly flat.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Fred - please post S&S when you get their list.
> 
> GP’s prices were generally what I expected. Has Keystone published anything yet?



This is what they have posted although they don't say where they come from. I'm going to email them.

http://sandswinegrapes.com/index.html


----------



## Boatboy24

I think my shock at the Lanza Cab soured me initially. Then the WA prices made me put my C/D on Craigslist (kidding). We'll see. From what I've seen, S&S gets Amador Gold grapes. That's what I started with and they did just fine. I love the Lanza, but am leaning toward Amador at this point to try out S&S (only an hour away). If I'm not happy, I'll switch it up next year.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> What Cab did you order?


I’m not sure which I’ll be getting, there’s a premium cab I’m on the list for, and it depends upon the yield as to how far down the list they can fill orders. If I don’t get that one, I’ll be getting the same cab that I did some of last harvest, Suisun area IIRC, and is quite good at nearly a year, but still in barrel.


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Just got Gino Pinto Price List.



Was this emailed to you? I thought I was on their email list, but haven't seen anything.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Was this emailed to you? I thought I was on their email list, but haven't seen anything.



Pretty sure I'm on their list as well and didn't receive anyting.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Was this emailed to you? I thought I was on their email list, but haven't seen anything.


I called and requested it. They did email it.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just received this from S and S. Sent an email to see what was in.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Just received this from S and S. Sent an email to see what was in.



Grapes are IN! .... but we aren’t telling you what they are!


----------



## Boatboy24

Grapes are IN!! Come get them in 3 weeks!! (the date for the event is 9/15 - of course, this has to happen on my wife's birthday...)


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Grapes are IN!! Come get them in 3 weeks!! (the date for the event is 9/15 - of course, this has to happen on my wife's birthday...)



Jen is real nice, she'll understand.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Jen is real nice, she'll understand.



OK, you can explain it to her.


----------



## pgentile

Considering getting my zin grapes this year from Gino's instead of Procacci, but not sure what source to pick if I even can.

Gino's has 5 choice of Old Vine Zin, Lanza and non-old vine. Prices range from 45-58. Lanza being the most expensive.

Are the Lanza grapes better than the others? I would love to look at each offering first(something I haven't done to date) and then decide. But not sure with my micro purchase of 7 -10 lugs that that will be a possibility. Anyone out there examine the grapes before making a decision on what grapes? or should I be satisfied with what ever I get?

Does anyone have experience with Zinderella sourced grapes?

I know it's not a real dilemma, but it's all relative.


----------



## Scott Harbison

Johnd said:


> LOL, it’s Scott, small price to pay to learn to use the C/D, must adjusting experience, and the several bottles of wine that we’ll permanently retire, and 60+ bottles of wine to boot!!!



I'm ready to learn! Just hope I'm a decent student! JohnD continues to offer his time and experience and I'm quite thrilled for the opportunity to try grapes this quickly!


----------



## mainshipfred

I don't know Gino's or Procacci but don't you have to preorder from Gino's as opposed to Procassi which I thought was a first come first serve as is S&S which maybe out of your area. At Harford we didn't have the luxury of seeing the grapes before hand. I do like your thoughts on seeing the grapes before you buy.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I don't know Gino's or Procacci but don't you have to preorder from Gino's as opposed to Procassi which I thought was a first come first serve as is S&S which maybe out of your area. At Harford we didn't have the luxury of seeing the grapes before hand. I do like your thoughts on seeing the grapes before you buy.



You are correct, I have to make a decision soon with Gino's. I'm going to call them again.


----------



## pgentile

pgentile said:


> You are correct, I have to make a decision soon with Gino's. I'm going to call them again.



OK just spoke with Gino's and 7 lugs of Paso Robles Old Vine Zin are on reserve. They recommended those and Amador over the others. No specifics, just consistently better grapes than the others according to them.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> OK just spoke with Gino's and 7 lugs of Paso Robles Old Vine Zin are on reserve. They recommended those and Amador over the others. No specifics, just consistently better grapes than the others according to them.



For the Zin, or just in general?


----------



## Ajmassa

For those who like to do a juice pail w/ a lug— what’s your typical volume and routine? 8 gals? In a carboy and couple jugs?


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> For the Zin, or just in general?



I just asked about the Zin specifically.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> For those who like to do a juice pail w/ a lug— what’s your typical volume and routine? 8 gals? In a carboy and couple jugs?


I usually done 1 lug per bucket of juice. Prior to having the brutes I'd split into two buckets for primary.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> I usually done 1 lug per bucket of juice. Prior to having the brutes I'd split into two buckets for primary.



No no. I just meant in terms of finished volume to expect. And what vessels your using for aging

I’ve never done just a juice bucket and 1 lug. It’s always been some crazy additions. Like, a half a lug and 100lbs worth of skins. Or few hefty scoops of fresh grapes and a mosti mondiali pack with other skins. But not a straight bucket/lug combo

**i ask because the bucket/lug combo seems pretty standard and popular. But 8 gal finished volume is a funky size. Does 8gal sound about right for vol?


----------



## Ajmassa

I’m gonna be grabbing my main grapes from Pintos. 20gal straight cab. Vineyard still tbd. 
But as Paul can attest— I just can’t bring myself to not swing by Procacci at some point. It’s just one of those things. So aside from the good chit, I’ll be throwing in 1 or 2 small batches for fun. Possibly a bucket/lug from pintos. But definitely planning for a throwback from Procacci. 
Gonna make a batch of the old family D*** Red recipe from grapes. Problem is all the main family who made this are all dead. And my old man did juice mostly. When he did do grapes he was basically winging it without a clue. And neither him or I can remember what the heck they did back in the day! So I really don’t have a frame of reference. 
Muscat/Alicante blend. When they did juice they would ferment separately in the buckets. Will be 2 Muscat 1 Alicante. (Often some Thompson’s seedless were tossed in when they did large batches) So the main question I have is:

Do I crush em all into the same vessel and ferment on both red and white skins ?
Or
Crush and press the Muscat and ferment separately from the Alicante fermenting on skins?

What even happens when fermenting on white skins ? Piss off the wine gods?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> OK just spoke with Gino's and 7 lugs of Paso Robles Old Vine Zin are on reserve. They recommended those and Amador over the others. No specifics, just consistently better grapes than the others according to them.



That's not all you are doing is it?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> No no. I just meant in terms of finished volume to expect. And what vessels your using for aging
> 
> I’ve never done just a juice bucket and 1 lug. It’s always been some crazy additions. Like, a half a lug and 100lbs worth of skins. Or few hefty scoops of fresh grapes and a mosti mondiali pack with other skins. But not a straight bucket/lug combo
> 
> **i ask because the bucket/lug combo seems pretty standard and popular. But 8 gal finished volume is a funky size



With an assortment of 3, 5, 6 and 7 gallon carboys you can accommodate almost anything. I just wish I had more 1 and 1/2 gallon ones.


----------



## mainshipfred

Do I crush em all into the same vessel and ferment on both red and white skins ?
Or
Crush and press the Muscat and ferment separately from the Alicante fermenting on skins?

What even happens when fermenting on white skins ? Piss off the wine gods?[/QUOTE]

Not being much of a white wine drinker the only take away I have with fermenting with white skins is would the tannins take something away. That's the only question I would have.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> would the tannins take something away. That's the only question I would have.



Hmmm. Interesting.....my main thought to your point is -I have no idea what your talking about. Lol. 

But for real. I don’t.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> For the Zin, or just in general?



In general, 7 lugs seems light for you, even with the recent Australian.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Hmmm. Interesting.....my main thought to your point is -I have no idea what your talking about. Lol.
> 
> But for real. I don’t.



Didn't you post this did I read it the wrong way? "What even happens when fermenting on white skins"


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Didn't you post this did I read it the wrong way? "What even happens when fermenting on white skins"



“If fermenting white wine WITH the skins, the tannins might taking something away”

Wasn’t sure of ‘how’. Or ‘which’ tannins and from ‘what’. And taking away from ‘what’ So I essentially had “no idea what your talking about” lol


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> “If fermenting white wine WITH the skins, the tannins might taking something away”
> 
> Wasn’t sure how. Or which tannins and from what. And taking away from what. So I essentially had “no idea what your talking about” lol



IIRC, this is called "Orange Wine", when white grapes are fermented with their skins, as it tends to produce a wine with an orange hue to it. The extraction of tannins from the skins will be much higher than wine that is made from the juice of C/D'd and pressed / settled juice. Do some reading on it, here's a starter for you:

https://www.bonappetit.com/story/orange-wine-skin-contact


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> “If fermenting white wine WITH the skins, the tannins might taking something away”
> 
> Wasn’t sure of ‘how’. Or ‘which’ tannins and from ‘what’. And taking away from ‘what’ So I essentially had “no idea what your talking about” lol



Johnd might have explained it better. My point as John mentioned is since the standard for white wine is crush and press there would be very little tannin extraction. Which might be why whites are usually crisper.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just an FYI, The S ans S prices are last years and the majority of their grapes come from Lodi and Napa. Frankly I didn't see anything on last years price list that would steer me away from Napa.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Just an FYI, The S ans S prices are last years and the majority of their grapes come from Lodi and Napa. Frankly I didn't see anything on last years price list that would steer me away from Napa.



When you look at their photo gallery, almost any pic that shows grapes, shows containers with Amador Gold labels on them.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> No no. I just meant in terms of finished volume to expect. And what vessels your using for aging
> 
> I’ve never done just a juice bucket and 1 lug. It’s always been some crazy additions. Like, a half a lug and 100lbs worth of skins. Or few hefty scoops of fresh grapes and a mosti mondiali pack with other skins. But not a straight bucket/lug combo
> 
> **i ask because the bucket/lug combo seems pretty standard and popular. But 8 gal finished volume is a funky size. Does 8gal sound about right for vol?



Yeah, it can range a little up or down though. Like 7.5-8.5


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Do I crush em all into the same vessel and ferment on both red and white skins ?
> Or
> Crush and press the Muscat and ferment separately from the Alicante fermenting on skins?
> 
> What even happens when fermenting on white skins ? Piss off the wine gods?



A year or two ago i would have thrown them altogether, but now I would ferment separately and blend later with some and some have straight muscat and alicante wines.

Fermenting white on skins is somewhat trending, calling them "orange" wines.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> That's not all you are doing is it?




No, not at all. I'm just switching up and getting my Zin from Gino's and will get other grapes and buckets from Procacci.


----------



## stickman

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’m gonna be grabbing my main grapes from Pintos. 20gal straight cab. Vineyard still tbd.
> But as Paul can attest— I just can’t bring myself to not swing by Procacci at some point. It’s just one of those things. So aside from the good chit, I’ll be throwing in 1 or 2 small batches for fun. Possibly a bucket/lug from pintos. But definitely planning for a throwback from Procacci.
> Gonna make a batch of the old family D*** Red recipe from grapes. Problem is all the main family who made this are all dead. And my old man did juice mostly. When he did do grapes he was basically winging it without a clue. And neither him or I can remember what the heck they did back in the day! So I really don’t have a frame of reference.
> Muscat/Alicante blend. When they did juice they would ferment separately in the buckets. Will be 2 Muscat 1 Alicante. (Often some Thompson’s seedless were tossed in when they did large batches) So the main question I have is:
> 
> Do I crush em all into the same vessel and ferment on both red and white skins ?
> Or
> Crush and press the Muscat and ferment separately from the Alicante fermenting on skins?
> 
> What even happens when fermenting on white skins ? Piss off the wine gods?




I have seen a lot of old school D*** Red wine making. The white and red grapes get fermented together, back then it would have been considered wasteful to press the white before fermentation. Once it got going, the primary fermentation was usually around 5 days, no yeast, no nutrients, and no sulfite, was ever added. The wine was pressed and put into a barrel in the basement with an air lock and left for several months, then a wooden bung replaced the air lock. In most cases the wine was never racked.


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> I have seen a lot of old school D*** Red wine making. The white and red grapes get fermented together, back then it would have been considered wasteful to press the white before fermentation. Once it got going, the primary fermentation was usually around 5 days, no yeast, no nutrients, and no sulfite, was ever added. The wine was pressed and put into a barrel in the basement with an air lock and left for several months, then a wooden bung replaced the air lock. In most cases the wine was never racked.



Thanks stickman
Pretty much exactly what they did too. (They did rack once). But no sulphite, yeast, nutrient or anything. And Christmas was always the barrel tasting. Usually was already quite drinkable. 
Age 12 was when we could indulge in a glass with our meal. Sounds crazy, but it wasn’t for the alcohol aspect. It was just what the adults drank at dinner. And if drinking wine at dinner then it was understood your old enough to be accountable for your actions. Kinda like- “your a man now- so act like one. And have a glass of wine without being a knucklehead. Salutè”

I just couldn’t remember if they included the white grape skins or not. I was pretty certain the wines were not separated- only when they did the juice. Which led to me questioning what benefit is there to keeping the white skins in the primary.


----------



## stickman

When you have color from the red skins, it reacts with the tannins over time to become pigmented tannin, this tends to tame the tannins to some extent, so in this case a little extra tannin from the white skins is not a problem. In a pure white wine you don't have the color, much more delicate, so the tannin may give some undesirable character or bitterness.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Age 12 was when we could indulge in a glass with our meal. Sounds crazy, but it wasn’t for the alcohol aspect. It was just what the adults drank at dinner. And if drinking wine at dinner then it was understood your old enough to be accountable for your actions. Kinda like- “your a man now- so act like one. And have a glass of wine without being a knucklehead. Salutè”



No home wine involved unfortunately, but my Italian side grandparents would lets us have a small amount of beer or wine with dinner starting much younger than 12. They thought it was a healthy thing to do. But then again my grandfather taught all his grand children to say "vaffanculo" as one of our first words. That's means FU for anyone who doesn't know.


----------



## Ajmassa

Great. Thanks for the info. I’m looking forward to this batch. Not sure if I’ll keep it true to form and stress free or do the standard meddling. 
I do miss the wine and it would be great to replicate it. We all knew the “homemade kick” as they’d say. And I know my family will appreciate it. And if I start checking levels and making adjustments and MLF and whatnot maybe I could make an even better version of it-but then that’s not the point of it. Eh. I’ll figure it out later. $105 for a 6 gal batch of grape wine ain’t so bad.


----------



## jgmann67

Prices posted at Keystone. But I’m having trouble with putting grapes and juice into a cart to figure out what I can afford.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Prices posted at Keystone. But I’m having trouble with putting grapes and juice into a cart to figure out what I can afford.



Don’t use the cart. It’s a wormhole. Here’s the screenshots.

* a little misleading. The Paso Robles are the only ‘18 prices. The rest are from ‘17 but good indication of what to expect. 

We’ll see if the gouging from wash rattlesnake is unique to just that winery soon enough. Keeping my eye on these when posted. 

When I spoke with Collingswood grape co it seems like had the same supplier as keystone (or are their supplier). Red hills were said to be their best quality cab. Keystone also was listed on the F Colavita & Son website as a supplier too.


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Don’t use the cart. It’s a wormhole. Here’s the screenshots.
> 
> * a little misleading. The Paso Robles are the only ‘18 prices. The rest are from ‘17 but good indication of what to expect.
> 
> We’ll see if the gouging from wash rattlesnake is unique to just that winery soon enough. Keeping my eye on these when posted.
> 
> When I spoke with Collingswood grape co it seems like had the same supplier as keystone (or are their supplier). Red hills were said to be their best quality cab.
> View attachment 50528
> View attachment 50529



Central Valley grapes are 2018 prices and the order form seems to work. Did anyone find out where they source the Central Valley grapes, what quality??


----------



## Ajmassa

The Central Valley stuff. No idea on details for em tho


----------



## jgmann67

I emailed them.

Thinking about doing 3-4 lugs of zin in a 6 gal bucket of juice.


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Gonna make a batch of the old family D*** Red recipe from grapes. Problem is all the main family who made this are all dead. And my old man did juice mostly. When he did do grapes he was basically winging it without a clue. And neither him or I can remember what the heck they did back in the day! So I really don’t have a frame of reference.
> Muscat/Alicante blend. When they did juice they would ferment separately in the buckets. Will be 2 Muscat 1 Alicante. (Often some Thompson’s seedless were tossed in when they did large batches)


FYI, At some point Prococci Bros had a basic D*** recipe posted, it was 2 parts Muscat, 1 part Alicante and 1 part Thompson white. I wrote it down and had it in my desk down here in the dungeon. I've had it a few times from a family who made it in Trooper (he was Italian, she was Polish, go figure). I'd love to make that wine, just worried I'd drink it too fast. Guess that's why they make a big batch every year.

Edit: I found what I think was the recipe, it wasn't on the site but in a recent (2016) Philly Voice article:
_
DiStefano made his wine from three grape varieties: Muscat, a white grape with a big taste and a distinctive flavor; Thompson seedless, the bland white grape they sell in grocery stores; and Alicante Bouschet, a red grape known for its dark color.

DiStefano’s wine is a traditional blend affectionately known among Italian-Americans as “D*** Red.” Serve it with pasta and meat, DiStefano told Procacci, and, “You can’t go wrong.”

Procacci corked the wine and stuck it back in the bag.

“I’ll put this behind my desk,” he said.

After tasting last year’s vino, DiStefano placed his order for this year’s vintage. He bought *10 36-pound cases of Muscat grapes, five 36-pound cases of Thompson seedless, and five 36-pound boxes of Alicante.

Whole article: https://www.phillyvoice.com/wine-ralph/*_


----------



## Ajmassa

ceeaton said:


> FYI, At some point Prococci Bros had a basic D*** recipe posted, it was 2 parts Muscat, 1 part Alicante and 1 part Thompson white. I wrote it down and had it in my desk down here in the dungeon. I've had it a few times from a family who made it in Trooper (he was Italian, she was Polish, go figure). I'd love to make that wine, just worried I'd drink it too fast. Guess that's why they make a big batch every year.



That’s my parents heritage as well. Go figure 

Procacci has been suggesting this recipe for a whole lotta years. And theyve been around for like 75 years or something. My family has used em since the 50’s I think. They made wine in Italy. And kept going once in US. 
I was told a cool story about a drought one year in the 40’s maybe. No grapes. Not acceptable. Worked out a deal with some traveling must/juice/wine? from Cali I think. No clue on specifics but a big truck would pull up to the house. All rowhomes so only option was to run a hose thru the areaway basement window and filled their barrels. There’s some really cool pics I saw from that day before. Wish I had them.


----------



## jgmann67

Got a response from Keystone about grapes and availability:

Our Bethlehem location will have our complete grape offerings from Central Valley, Paso Robles, and Lake County, CA in addition to Washington State available with pre-orders. Please visit our website for the full list and pricing.

Our Premium grapes are from Paso Robles, Lake County and Washington State where we use independent grape brokers to monitor the fruit maturity from multiple vineyards. They are picked at their peak and shipped immediately making these the highest quality grapes we sell but we often do not know when they are arriving until they're en route. We do not have the Premium grape pre-orders setup yet with the exception of Paso Robles. The later harvest for those regions means we typically don't start taking pre-orders till after Labor Day.

Our basic California grape varietals are sourced from all over the Central Valley and typically packed by Colavita & Sons but sometimes Sunniland or other fruit packagers depending on the harvest yields and what our brokers determine looks best. We recommend selecting the first shipment to insure you receive the freshest products. All Central Valley products are shipped FTL to our Montgomeryville store on refrigerated trucks.

The most efficient way to place an order and select the shipment (for Central Valley grapes) that works best for you is through the link above. We hope to see you this fall and let us know if you have any other questions in the meantime.

Cheers!
Meridyth


----------



## Boatboy24

OK, so a quarter ton would be between 450 and 550 pounds. Split 4 ways, that is a little more than a 6 gallon batch each. I'm thinking if we have 4 people and 4 varietals they could agree on, each could purchase a quarter ton, and we could split. Thoughts?

I usually try to do 4 varietals at 3 lugs each, which is 432lbs. By buying a quarter ton, it is a little more than usual, but the cost is significantly lower.

Initial thoughts are Cab Sauv, Zin, Syrah and Petite Sirah/Petite Verdot.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> OK, so a quarter ton would be between 450 and 550 pounds. Split 4 ways, that is a little more than a 6 gallon batch each. I'm thinking if we have 4 people and 4 varietals they could agree on, each could purchase a quarter ton, and we could split. Thoughts?
> 
> I usually try to do 4 varietals at 3 lugs each, which is 432lbs. By buying a quarter ton, it is a little more than usual, but the cost is significantly lower.
> 
> Initial thoughts are Cab Sauv, Zin, Syrah and Petite Sirah/Petite Verdot.



I would lean towards doing something like this. The big thing will be geography and who it makes sense for.


----------



## jgmann67

For me, it’s $$$. It’s a great idea. Wish I had a few hundred more in my pocket.


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> I would lean towards doing something like this. The big thing will be geography and who it makes sense for.



If I were going that route, I think I'd have to buy from Pinto's or Keystone. Don't think anyone closer offers in those quantities.


----------



## Boatboy24

Update: Heard from Gino's and the only bulk they do is half ton. The field narrows...


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Update: Heard from Gino's and the only bulk they do is half ton. The field narrows...



1000 lbs of single variety?


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> 1000 lbs of single variety?



Yep, too much of one thing for me. So it'd have to be Keystone unless Procacci does 1/4 tons. I haven't seen their pricing though.

I'm also looking into a group purchase through Washington Winemakers - you can buy by the lug from them. Grapes are from Lodi, expected delivery of 9/22. I should have pricing this week. Pickup will be in Mitchellville, MD.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep, too much of one thing for me. So it'd have to be Keystone unless Procacci does 1/4 tons. I haven't seen their pricing though.
> 
> I'm also looking into a group purchase through Washington Winemakers - you can buy by the lug from them. Grapes are from Lodi, expected delivery of 9/22. I should have pricing this week. Pickup will be in Mitchellville, MD.



When did you get this update? I haven't seen anything yet.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep, too much of one thing for me. So it'd have to be Keystone unless Procacci does 1/4 tons. I haven't seen their pricing though.
> 
> I'm also looking into a group purchase through Washington Winemakers - you can buy by the lug from them. Grapes are from Lodi, expected delivery of 9/22. I should have pricing this week. Pickup will be in Mitchellville, MD.



Procacci won't post a price list, There should be someone in the warehouse there by 9/1, I'll go by there by then and get one, plus I'll ask about bulk. 

Gino's said the Paso Robles will be in 9/10


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> When did you get this update? I haven't seen anything yet.



I reached out to Jim this morning. I think I forwarded his reply to you.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep, too much of one thing for me. So it'd have to be Keystone unless Procacci does 1/4 tons. I haven't seen their pricing though.
> 
> I'm also looking into a group purchase through Washington Winemakers - you can buy by the lug from them. Grapes are from Lodi, expected delivery of 9/22. I should have pricing this week. Pickup will be in Mitchellville, MD.



But thinking through this, going in on a bulk buy and getting a 1/4 ton, would make more sense for me in 2019. I don't have the capacity to handle the volume in one shot. I'll probably come close anyway to 1/4 ton total however it will happen over several weeks. I'd need to get more or larger fermenting vessels.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> But thinking through this, going in on a bulk buy and getting a 1/4 ton, would make more sense for me in 2019. I don't have the capacity to handle the volume in one shot. I'll probably come close anyway to 1/4 ton total however it will happen over several weeks. I'd need to get more or larger fermenting vessels.



I'm thinking the same thing as far as 2019. It's been a bit of looking but I think 2018 is probably handled.


----------



## Boatboy24

Agree on 2019 and those of us in the mid-atlantic should think about it seriously. Big difference in prices, and with a year to plan, I think we can do it easily. Just not enough time to plan it all out this year. If we end up looking at a handful of 1/4 ton orders, we may be able to get some input as to delivery location.


----------



## pgentile

Just stopped in and spoke to Lenny at Procacci Bros. Grapes are going up 1.50 per lug across the board. No printed list yet(2017 price list is posted somewhere here). Trucking cost increase and small increase from supplier driving prices. He will do deals on 30 lugs or more.

Premium Zin and some other grapes will be in as early as this Thursday. Said the Zin was harvested at 23 brix.

They were unloading, presses, corkers, etc today.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Agree on 2019 and those of us in the mid-atlantic should think about it seriously. Big difference in prices, and with a year to plan, I think we can do it easily. Just not enough time to plan it all out this year. If we end up looking at a handful of 1/4 ton orders, we may be able to get some input as to delivery location.


Agreed


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Just stopped in and spoke to Lenny at Procacci Bros. Grapes are going up 1.50 per lug across the board. No printed list yet(2017 price list is posted somewhere here). Trucking cost increase and small increase from supplier driving prices. He will do deals on 30 lugs or more.
> 
> Premium Zin and some other grapes will be in as early as this Thursday. Said the Zin was harvested at 23 brix.
> 
> They were unloading, presses, corkers, etc today.



Wonder what the discount would be.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Wonder what the discount would be.



At 30 lugs he said around 2 bucks or so a lug. I imagine it would scale from there or be dependent on his mood that day.


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Just stopped in and spoke to Lenny at Procacci Bros. Grapes are going up 1.50 per lug across the board. No printed list yet(2017 price list is posted somewhere here). Trucking cost increase and small increase from supplier driving prices. He will do deals on 30 lugs or more.
> 
> Premium Zin and some other grapes will be in as early as this Thursday. Said the Zin was harvested at 23 brix.
> 
> They were unloading, presses, corkers, etc today.



They are first come, first serve, right? No preorders?


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> They are first come, first serve, right? No preorders?



Yup, no pre-orders that I'm aware of.


----------



## Ajmassa

Remember tho- time is also $$. The beauty of the typical pickup from distributor is having to do NO legwork. 

The only distributor I’ve seen advertising bulk deals is keystone. Some grapes 1/4 ton minimum. Others 1/2 ton minimum. Aside from using them you would essentially end up doing their job- which is a hassle. 
The other places that do bulk I’ve spoken with are F Colavita & son and Collingswood grape Co. And both of these supply to the distributors we use. 
But to use them directly is tricky. Need to organize all buyers and try to agree on the varietals and make it work with the volumes- hoping you have enough of each to warrant your own truck. Collingswood told me about 4tons to fill a truck
If Ya can’t fill a truck then ya gotta try and piggyback on another delivery. Some wineries close by with room on a truck. And even then- the timing needs to work. If they get Lodi earlier and you want diff AVA- then can’t do it. 
After looking into it I realized it wasn’t worth the headache. Too many variables involved. I was looking into possible ways to get really high quality grapes at bulk prices. 
Usually purchases like this are ran by wine clubs. Sourgrapes club used Collingswood grape co- and he told me it was not the smoothest ride from order to delivery. 
Plus it’s hard just getting past the first step. Getting enough people and then to all agree on the amounts a varietals-
And in the end how much $ is being saved vs the hoops needed to jump thru to make it happen?


----------



## pgentile

@Ajmassa5983 well said


----------



## mainshipfred

I agree as well it would be a hassle. It's a great thought though.


----------



## Ajmassa

I went down this wormhole last month. Even if I found 3 or 4 guys to go in on purchasing 1 ton of cab- not enough for own delivery. Closest winery supplied was in Hershey. But they got Lodi and timing wouldn’t work. 
With thar option gone it didn’t make sense anymore since both joints Supply both pintos and keystone. (Don’t know to what extent tho). 
Keystone offering the bulk deals themselves sounded like my best option for bulk buy by a mile. And would still totally do it too. But my plan was not jiving with Jim’s. 
I was looking at the red hill cab for $2.05 lb bulk buy. But I’d have about 500lbs extra grapes (1/2 ton min)


----------



## Boatboy24

I think it'd be simplest to utilize Keystone's legwork and just take their 1/4 or 1/2 ton pricing. It's a haul for me and Fred, but I think it'd be worth it. For this year, I think I'm going to hit the 'Easy' button and try out the Washington Winemakers. Lodi fruit, which I'm not super excited about, but pickup location should be less than an hour away. And I suspect pricing will be less than I'm used to paying for the Suisun grapes.

For next year and group buys, I'd try to be flexible on varietals and go with the flow a bit. Depending on what my Dad wants to do, I may just say 'screw it' and do a quarter ton of good Cab.


----------



## mainshipfred

The Lodi doesn't excite very much either. It looks like my Tannat may fall through as well. The winery just told me it's on a TBD basis. Since the harvest is not looking good. Same with all of VA.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> . I may just say 'screw it' and do a quarter ton of good Cab.



Hell yes! Now we’re cookin with gas!

I found what seems to be the only French barrel <30gal in the country. You should get one too I think. 55L Saint Martin


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Hell yes! Now we’re cookin with gas!
> 
> I found what seems to be the only French barrel <30gal in the country. You should get one too I think. 55L Saint Martin



Too rich for my blood, and I couldn't keep it full (I think). If I went w/ something like a quarter ton of one varietal, I'd probably still break it up into 4 batches and run them through my 23 liter barrels. Then just mix up for bottling.


----------



## gitmo234

I ordered from here: http://oakwoodbarrels.com/

no experience with them but will keep you all up to date


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> The Lodi doesn't excite very much either. It looks like my Tannat may fall through as well. The winery just told me it's on a TBD basis. Since the harvest is not looking good. Same with all of VA.



Been reading Virginia and other east coast grapes have received too much rain. Not going to be the best harvests,


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Been reading Virginia and other east coast grapes have received too much rain. Not going to be the best harvests,



I was going to try and score some local Viognier or Petite Manseng, but will likely have to wait until next year. May do a juice bucket Viognier if the option is available.


----------



## GreenEnvy22

I started picking our muscat this evening. Got a 20L brute full of grapes before I had to give up for the night due to mosquitoes and darkness. Will finish up tomorrow morning.


----------



## mainshipfred

gitmo234 said:


> I ordered from here: http://oakwoodbarrels.com/
> 
> no experience with them but will keep you all up to date


 
Be careful, read the reviews.


----------



## gitmo234

mainshipfred said:


> Be careful, read the reviews.



Yikes... off to chargeback with the CC


----------



## zadvocate

It may be too far for most, but CFPwinemakers in Pittsburgh has a lot of choices. Lanza being their best but you have to preorder. The do large orders too for wineries etc... but I dont know how they discount. Another thing that I looked into was a grape broker in Washington. At the time for a half ton, it was $1.00 pound and $500 delivery fee. I needed the delivery to be to a place that has a deck or forklift. These were Washington grapes.

http://www.winegrapebroker.com/


----------



## GreenEnvy22

Finished picking, crushed and pressed this morning.
Got 15L free run, pressed to 21L.
Pressed another 5L for drinking juice or making jam.

Even though with refractometer I was seeing 18-23 brix, this pressed is just 17.5. So added sugar to bring it up to 20.
pH 3.27

A smaller harvest than last year, I got about double the juice then. this summer was very dry though so fruit was smaller.


----------



## mainshipfred

zadvocate said:


> It may be too far for most, but CFPwinemakers in Pittsburgh has a lot of choices. Lanza being their best but you have to preorder. The do large orders too for wineries etc... but I dont know how they discount. Another thing that I looked into was a grape broker in Washington. At the time for a half ton, it was $1.00 pound and $500 delivery fee. I needed the delivery to be to a place that has a deck or forklift. These were Washington grapes.
> 
> http://www.winegrapebroker.com/



Going to have to look into the Washington grapes for next year, thanks.


----------



## mainshipfred

gitmo234 said:


> Yikes... off to chargeback with the CC



I almost made the mistake last year. Don't exactly remember what initially drew the flag.


----------



## gitmo234

So, with all the commotion on this, I'm trying to find a local (virginia, MD, east coast, etc) that wants to carry frozen must pales. Anyone know of a store that might be interested?

When i buy locally i buy from Jays Brewing, in ManassasVA. I wrote to them and will wait and see what they say, but it seems like if we got someone started with frozen grape must first, it wouldnt be much further to grow that into a source of grapes


----------



## mainshipfred

gitmo234 said:


> So, with all the commotion on this, I'm trying to find a local (virginia, MD, east coast, etc) that wants to carry frozen must pales. Anyone know of a store that might be interested?
> 
> When i buy locally i buy from Jays Brewing, in ManassasVA. I wrote to them and will wait and see what they say, but it seems like if we got someone started with frozen grape must first, it wouldnt be much further to grow that into a source of grapes



Couple thing for you, First where are you located? I use Jay's myself on occasion but they are cater almost entirely beer making, plus I'm not sure they have a freezer. Second when you posted about the barrels I had no idea you were local. I'm in Chantilly. I ordered 10 barrels and have 4 left. Two 25s and two 30s. $182.50 ea for the 25s and $192.50 ea for the 30s.


----------



## Boatboy24

gitmo234 said:


> So, with all the commotion on this, I'm trying to find a local (virginia, MD, east coast, etc) that wants to carry frozen must pales. Anyone know of a store that might be interested?
> 
> When i buy locally i buy from Jays Brewing, in ManassasVA. I wrote to them and will wait and see what they say, but it seems like if we got someone started with frozen grape must first, it wouldnt be much further to grow that into a source of grapes



I used to go to Jay's when I lived in Bristow. I now live in Chantilly - pretty close to Fred. As Fred mentioned Jay's seem to cater to brewers. I know they're under different management now, but Derek, who used to own it was very helpful. The other place that might have enough 'density' to do such a thing is 'My Local HomeBrew Shop' in Falls Church. 

As far as wineries, I know 8 Chains near Waterford used to (maybe they still do) make a WA Tempranillo and Syrah (maybe one or two other varietals). You might start there.


----------



## gitmo234

Thanks. I'm in Burke, VA. Jays seems to be the most friendly, althougn you're correct. It's oriented toward beer. It seems that brewing is where the immediate money is. Wine kits are great and all (although I've screwed up everyone I've touched), but the money is in stuff like grapes and must which is a high up-front cost it seems and requires a lot of quality control. A lot more work for the profit. 

I'll give 8 chains a call.


----------



## gitmo234

mainshipfred said:


> Couple thing for you, First where are you located? I use Jay's myself on occasion but they are cater almost entirely beer making, plus I'm not sure they have a freezer. Second when you posted about the barrels I had no idea you were local. I'm in Chantilly. I ordered 10 barrels and have 4 left. Two 25s and two 30s. $182.50 ea for the 25s and $192.50 ea for the 30s.



I'm in Burke VA. I just bought a 15 gallon but I'll be in touch shortly for a 25. Sucks making this in the basement of a town home but im progressing. I'm looking to find a larger affordable space to do this


----------



## Boatboy24

gitmo234 said:


> I'm in Burke VA. I just bought a 15 gallon but I'll be in touch shortly for a 25. Sucks making this in the basement of a town home but im progressing. I'm looking to find a larger affordable space to do this



Washington Winemakers will be putting their list out this week. Its Lodi fruit. Pickup in Mitchellville, MD, just east of the beltway off Rte 50.


----------



## gitmo234

Boatboy24 said:


> Washington Winemakers will be putting their list out this week. Its Lodi fruit. Pickup in Mitchellville, MD, just east of the beltway off Rte 50.


Is this something I can join?


----------



## Boatboy24

gitmo234 said:


> Is this something I can join?



I got the deets from Fred. Just email [email protected]. I've been corresponding with Jim over the last few days. He's been very helpful. Looks like delivery is expected on 9/22 as of now.


----------



## mainshipfred

gitmo234 said:


> I'm in Burke VA. I just bought a 15 gallon but I'll be in touch shortly for a 25. Sucks making this in the basement of a town home but im progressing. I'm looking to find a larger affordable space to do this



To avoid confusion, they are 25 and 30 liter not gallons.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I used to go to Jay's when I lived in Bristow. I now live in Chantilly - pretty close to Fred. As Fred mentioned Jay's seem to cater to brewers. I know they're under different management now, but Derek, who used to own it was very helpful. The other place that might have enough 'density' to do such a thing is 'My Local HomeBrew Shop' in Falls Church.
> 
> I stopped by MLHBS a few weeks ago. They cut their space in half and probably have less wine stuff then Jay's.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I stopped by MLHBS a few weeks ago. They cut their space in half and probably have less wine stuff then Jay's.



Not surprising. I've never been there, but from what I saw on line, their prices were not good at all. I thought they did decent business though.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Not surprising. I've never been there, but from what I saw on line, their prices were not good at all. I thought they did decent business though.



For beer they do. Prices weren't terribly out of line but then again all I think I every bought was misc supplies.


----------



## Igor

GreenEnvy22 said:


> Finished picking, crushed and pressed this morning.
> Got 15L free run, pressed to 21L.
> Pressed another 5L for drinking juice or making jam.
> 
> Even though with refractometer I was seeing 18-23 brix, this pressed is just 17.5. So added sugar to bring it up to 20.
> pH 3.27
> 
> A smaller harvest than last year, I got about double the juice then. this summer was very dry though so fruit was smaller.
> 
> View attachment 50565


Is that fig trees I see. what do you do with them in the winter?


----------



## gitmo234

mainshipfred said:


> To avoid confusion, they are 25 and 30 liter not gallons.



Much better! thanks. We'll be in touch. I'll take a 25 for now.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just received my local price list. Across the board higher then Procacci. But have 2 questions. First is there any real benefit from buying white grapes as opposed to a juice bucket? Secondly if I remember correctly Pinot Noir is a difficult wine to make, is this correct?


----------



## gitmo234

mainshipfred said:


> Just received my local price list. Across the board higher then Procacci. But have 2 questions. First is there any real benefit from buying white grapes as opposed to a juice bucket? Secondly if I remember correctly Pinot Noir is a difficult wine to make, is this correct?



I complete forgot to talk to you about this kinda stuff. What's on the menu and from where?


----------



## mainshipfred

If people want to compare this is what I received. Everything is from Lodi.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Just received my local price list. Across the board higher then Procacci. But have 2 questions. First is there any real benefit from buying white grapes as opposed to a juice bucket? Secondly if I remember correctly Pinot Noir is a difficult wine to make, is this correct?



I've done a couple white wines from juice and have been happy with the results. Going from grapes would be 2-3 times the price, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth it. Better? I'd say most likely yes. But three times better?


----------



## gitmo234

this is great. does a lug make about 2 gallons?


----------



## mainshipfred

gitmo234 said:


> this is great. does a lug make about 2 gallons?



Approximately depending on the grape.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I've done a couple white wines from juice and have been happy with the results. Going from grapes would be 2-3 times the price, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth it. Better? I'd say most likely yes. But three times better?



Kind of my thought exactly. But I just keep thinking about the thread on the heat treatment of the processed juice and cold fermentation. Not sure I 100% buy into it but without knowing have to at least consider it.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Kind of my thought exactly. But I just keep thinking about the thread on the heat treatment of the processed juice and cold fermentation. Not sure I 100% buy into it but without knowing have to at least consider it.



You could consider getting a frozen white must, it's pressed, settled, frozen, and shipped to you frozen. Kinda takes the processing fears out of the equation, as well as the risk of early fermentation. Having done several whites from frozen juice all the way down here in the south, they've always arrived frozen and slushy, way too cold for anything to get going before arriving, and have made very nice wines. Just another option to consider............


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Approximately depending on the grape.



I use 2gallons per lug for planning purposes. It usually comes out a little higher than that, but I'm comfortable knowing I can make a 6 gallon batch from 3 lugs and likely have a little extra for topping up.

@mainshipfred : regarding your question on Pinot Noir, I've read that it's a tough wine and hesitated making one until last fall. So far so good with that - I'll be putting it into the barrel this weekend and will take a taste. The more I read, I think the hard part w/ Pinot is more in the growing.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Just received my local price list. Across the board higher then Procacci. But have 2 questions. First is there any real benefit from buying white grapes as opposed to a juice bucket? Secondly if I remember correctly Pinot Noir is a difficult wine to make, is this correct?



I haven't pressed white grapes as of yet, but the only thing I could think of is you truly know what your getting from the grapes. But I have had good results with whites from buckets, viognier two years ago and the sauv blanc last year. And the cost is lower with buckets


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> You could consider getting a frozen white must, it's pressed, settled, frozen, and shipped to you frozen. Kinda takes the processing fears out of the equation, as well as the risk of early fermentation. Having done several whites from frozen juice all the way down here in the south, they've always arrived frozen and slushy, way too cold for anything to get going before arriving, and have made very nice wines. Just another option to consider............



Thanks but isn't frozen must more expensive then grapes? Even though we cry and whine about how far we have to travel for grapes I think we have easier access then you.


----------



## pgentile

Stopped in Procacci again today, they have premium zin and syrah in, plus most juice buckets and some of the regular grape list. I could have gotten grapes today, but tomorrow is their official opening day of the year, and they were having electronic payment system issues today, and were a little disheveled getting all set up. Lenny was busy didn't get a chance to talk to him and the other guy doesn't know much.


----------



## mainshipfred

@mainshipfred : regarding your question on Pinot Noir, I've read that it's a tough wine and hesitated making one until last fall. So far so good with that - I'll be putting it into the barrel this weekend and will take a taste. The more I read, I think the hard part w/ Pinot is more in the growing.[/QUOTE]

Got it, maybe that is what I'm remembering.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Stopped in Procacci again today, they have premium zin and syrah in, plus most juice buckets and some of the regular grape list. I could have gotten grapes today, but tomorrow is their official opening day of the year, and they were having electronic payment system issues today, and were a little disheveled getting all set up. Lenny was busy didn't get a chance to talk to him and the other guy doesn't know much.



Thanks Paul, will you be going back tomorrow? Or whenever you go will you be able to get the pricing and AVA?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks Paul, will you be going back tomorrow? Or whenever you go will you be able to get the pricing and AVA?



Yup, going back tomorrow am to get 7 lugs of premium syrah. I'll have AVA info and prices then.


----------



## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Stopped in Procacci again today, they have premium zin and syrah in, plus most juice buckets and some of the regular grape list. I could have gotten grapes today, but tomorrow is their official opening day of the year, and they were having electronic payment system issues today, and were a little disheveled getting all set up. Lenny was busy didn't get a chance to talk to him and the other guy doesn't know much.



What is their premium Zin? Where is if from and what 'line' - Lodi Gold?


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Closest winery supplied was in Hershey. But they got Lodi and timing wouldn’t work.


Was that the Vineyard and Brewery at Hershey? My brother knows one of the owners, just asking, might have to visit this Fall. I had been invited to visit and never got out there, pretty sure they make some beer too.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> What is their premium Zin? Where is if from and what 'line' - Lodi Gold?


The premium zin are “wine grapes”. The regular Zin are wine grapes for less $$. 
Procacci and “grape info” aren’t the best of friends. 
Might be Better off googling. Regina and Pia grapes. 



ceeaton said:


> Was that the Vineyard and Brewery at Hershey? My brother knows one of the owners, just asking, might have to visit this Fall. I had been invited to visit and never got out there, pretty sure they make some beer too.



Collingswood Grape Co. wouldn’t tell me the name. And I understood so I didn’t push. Since the Hershey winery wasn’t using the higher quality grapes offered he didn’t want to put their business out there like that.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> What is their premium Zin? Where is if from and what 'line' - Lodi Gold?



Mr Massa is correct, I'm still going to try and get the source from them. But there actually will be a sticker that says "Premium Grapes" on the lugs with no vineyard listed. 

That's one of the reason I ordered the Paso Robles grapes from Gino's I want to see if there is a big difference and do the Procacci premium stand up.

Some of us will have a bottle of last years procacci premium Zin at the crabhouse on the 9th, and we can judge the grapes then.


----------



## pgentile

Here are last years premium zin. They are marked "Pia" which is the same company as Regina. Like the juice who know what you are really getting. But I can't complain about any of their products.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Here are last years premium zin. They are marked "Pia" which is the same company as Regina. Like the juice who know what you are really getting. But I can't complain about any of their products.
> 
> View attachment 50657
> View attachment 50658



Plus a lot of them come in the old school wooden lug crates. And for anyone crafty
these things are gems for some wine related DIYs.


----------



## pgentile

This what the Regina/Pia website says about their grapes:

*Varietal Wine Grapes*
With close to thirty different varietal grapes, we can say we offer one of the best selections and finest quality, house packed wine grapes on the market. Each box of our grapes is carefully selected and hand packed in our enclosed packing facility producing a cleaner, more stable, higher quality packs than is possible in a field pack. And, each box is packed under the close scrutiny of our family ensuring the quality which has made the Pia and Regina labels strong in today's home winemaking market.

https://www.reginagrapejuice.com/products/index.html


----------



## pgentile

pgentile said:


> This what the Regina/Pia website says about their grapes:
> 
> *Varietal Wine Grapes*
> With close to thirty different varietal grapes, we can say we offer one of the best selections and finest quality, house packed wine grapes on the market. Each box of our grapes is carefully selected and hand packed in our enclosed packing facility producing a cleaner, more stable, higher quality packs than is possible in a field pack. And, each box is packed under the close scrutiny of our family ensuring the quality which has made the Pia and Regina labels strong in today's home winemaking market.
> 
> https://www.reginagrapejuice.com/products/index.html



Point is, I doubt they give out their sources, and like other discussions about their juice, it's all probably from a number of vineyards they buy from.


----------



## Ajmassa

Yea they’re pretty protective of their sources. 
Paul which Robles grapes you order? 
I still need to order and the clone #9 cab sav from Paso Robles is on my radar. 
Likely grabbing my Muscat and Alicante this week too. And I think I’m gonna do my 1st full white ever with a Sauv Blanc juice pail too. 
Shootin from the hip for this entire harvest it feels like.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yea they’re pretty protective of their sources.
> Paul which Robles grapes you order?
> I still need to order and the clone #9 cab sav from Paso Robles is on my radar.
> Likely grabbing my Muscat and Alicante this week too. And I think I’m gonna do my 1st full white ever with a Sauv Blanc juice pail too.
> Shootin from the hip for this entire harvest it feels like.



The old vine zinfandel. Shifting my zin to Gino's this year, they are due in on the10th. Getting lugs of something tomorrow from Procacci, looking at the premium syrah, but not sure.
Will get another bucket of suav blanc or viognier.

I need to try the D*** red one of these years.

Remember that sauv blanc I made last year was oaked during bulk. Med American.

I think the Clone #9 is a good choice. Good luck with it all.


----------



## Ajmassa

Order placed. 
Paso Robles clone #8

Was told likely to be in around 1st week of October


----------



## pgentile

Here is the premium list. One's with check marks are in. Most of non premium list is not in either yet. Grapes will be trickling in all next week.

Just got two buckets of sauv blanc today. I've decided to go with a petite syrah and a cab sauv with the rest of my grapes. Going to wait until all the grapes are in.

They had a cab sauv/alicante in the barrel for tasting this year and it is quite good.

The best I could get from them as to AVA or sources was some central valley and some lodi.


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Collingswood Grape Co. wouldn’t tell me the name. And I understood so I didn’t push. Since the Hershey winery wasn’t using the higher quality grapes offered he didn’t want to put their business out there like that.


They actually have some really good wines, I think most of them come from their own grapes and local grapes. Their technique maximizes what they can get out of their ingredients, they are all pretty much fermentation nerds from what my brother said. I'd love it if they used to top shelf grapes, I can imagine they'd make some awesome wine from them.

Still, I need to go visit, always a good thing to see how production techniques differ from small quantities to larger ones.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Here is the premium list. One's with check marks are in. Most of non premium list is not in either yet. Grapes will be trickling in all next week.
> 
> Just got two buckets of sauv blanc today. I've decided to go with a petite syrah and a cab sauv with the rest of my grapes. Going to wait until all the grapes are in.
> 
> They had a cab sauv/alicante in the barrel for tasting this year and it is quite good.
> 
> The best I could get from them as to AVA or sources was some central valley and some lodi.
> 
> View attachment 50666



Thanks Paul, I'm so undecided as of now, still waiting for S&S pricing and even though not likely my fingers are crossed for my local Tannat. So as of now I'll either be making a lot or a little. But I do have my eye on that Brunello.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks Paul, I'm so undecided as of now, still waiting for S&S pricing and even though not likely my fingers are crossed for my local Tannat. So as of now I'll either be making a lot or a little. But I do have my eye on that Brunello.



You have options go with what feels right.


----------



## jgmann67

pgentile said:


> Here is the premium list. One's with check marks are in. Most of non premium list is not in either yet. Grapes will be trickling in all next week.
> 
> Just got two buckets of sauv blanc today. I've decided to go with a petite syrah and a cab sauv with the rest of my grapes. Going to wait until all the grapes are in.
> 
> They had a cab sauv/alicante in the barrel for tasting this year and it is quite good.
> 
> The best I could get from them as to AVA or sources was some central valley and some lodi.
> 
> View attachment 50666



Hmmmmm. Wonder a) whether they're open on Monday; and b) do the crush and destem (though I think the answer I saw here was "no."


----------



## Ajmassa

Open every day during wine season. 

No crushing destemming service. Procacci is a produce wholesale distributor 11 months out of the year


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Open every day during wine season.
> 
> No crushing destemming service. Procacci is a produce wholesale distributor 11 months out of the year



It's Philly - wondered whether Labor Day has any impact. Glad it doesn't. I can do a work around for C/D.


----------



## mainshipfred

Jim, not sure if Mitchelleville MD is too much of a drive for you but Washington Winemakers has a free C/D service. I posted their selection on the previous sheet.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> It's Philly - wondered whether Labor Day has any impact. Glad it doesn't. I can do a work around for C/D.



Depending on you location- keystone Homebrew (2 locations Montgomeryville and Bethlehem) offer crush and destemming service for grapes purchased there as well as outside grapes brought in


----------



## Ajmassa

Or grab yourself some milk crates


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Or grab yourself some milk crates



That's my work around.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Jim, not sure if Mitchelleville MD is too much of a drive for you but Washington Winemakers has a free C/D service. I posted their selection on the previous sheet.



Fred - I just mapped it and it's the same distance as Philly, little further than Bethlehem.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Fred - I just mapped it and it's the same distance as Philly, little further than Bethlehem.



I just checked Keystone's prices, really high and there lower priced grapes are from the Central Valley like Procacci and Mitchellville. Still waiting on S&S.


----------



## TemperanceOwl

jgmann67 said:


> That's my work around.


What's this workaround with milk crates?


----------



## jgmann67

TemperanceOwl said:


> What's this workaround with milk crates?


----------



## pgentile

jgmann67 said:


> That's my work around.



The first few times I made wine from grapes, I de-stemmed by hand and crushed with a 2x4, took hours to do a few lugs. Then tried to de-stem with a crate and found it too slow and cumbersome. The next several batches. I put whole clusters in brutes and again crushed with a 2x4 then pulled out stems for the first several day of primary. Now I have a crusher and crush into brutes and pull out stems during primary for a few days. By the time I get to press there are no stems in the must. I have had no vegetal aspects in the wine from this process. A few here have tasted my SA cab and south philly Bordeaux that were done with crushing without de-stemming immediately and then picking them out for several days during primary.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Or grab yourself some milk crates



Fred has milk crates.


----------



## TemperanceOwl

jgmann67 said:


>



Neat workaround for a small batch! Thanks!
Pgentile, how many were you trying to do when you found the milk crate method to cumbersome? I'd be doing around 130 lbs.


----------



## pgentile

TemperanceOwl said:


> Neat workaround for a small batch! Thanks!
> Pgentile, how many were you trying to do when you found the milk crate method to cumbersome? I'd be doing around 130 lbs.



It was closer to 350lbs, the crate things works and shouldn't be a big deal with 130lbs.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks but isn't frozen must more expensive then grapes? Even though we cry and whine about how far we have to travel for grapes I think we have easier access then you.



Typically, it is more expensive than fresh.


----------



## ibglowin

But its also crushed and destemmed thus dropping a lot of weight and waste which would bring it more closer to fresh once you treated them the same way (comparing apples to apples as the old saying goes)


Johnd said:


> Typically, it is more expensive than fresh.


----------



## Boatboy24

Just an update for those of you who have access to some of the same grapes I do. Last fall, I splurged on a few lugs of El Dorado Pinot Noir. Moved it into the barrel this afternoon and, of course, tasted a sample. It is totally worth it already. Don't recall what it is going for this year, but I think I paid $69/lug last year. I'd do it again happily.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> El Dorado Pinot Noir. ........ Don't recall what it is going for this year, but I think I paid $69/lug last year. I'd do it again happily.



$74


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I just checked Keystone's prices, really high and there lower priced grapes are from the Central Valley like Procacci and Mitchellville. Still waiting on S&S.



So I emailed the guy at Mitchellville and he emailed me right back. I like that. 

Whatever I’m going to do, I’m pulling the trigger tomorrow.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So I emailed the guy at Mitchellville and he emailed me right back. I like that.
> 
> Whatever I’m going to do, I’m pulling the trigger tomorrow.



Jim Gearing? Yep - I was emailing with him all last week - super responsive. And folks may or may not like this about the club, but they charge an extra dollar or so per lug/bucket that goes to the church and nursing home that helps support their pickups w/ parking lot usage, etc. So a small part of your purchase goes to 'charity'.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Jim Gearing? Yep - I was emailing with him all last week - super responsive. And folks may or may not like this about the club, but they charge an extra dollar or so per lug/bucket that goes to the church and nursing home that helps support their pickups w/ parking lot usage, etc. So a small part of your purchase goes to 'charity'.



That’s a plus in my ledger.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Jim Gearing? Yep - I was emailing with him all last week - super responsive. And folks may or may not like this about the club, but they charge an extra dollar or so per lug/bucket that goes to the church and nursing home that helps support their pickups w/ parking lot usage, etc. So a small part of your purchase goes to 'charity'.



I asked him if people bring wine to the pick up and he told me "we bring wine to everythng" so I imagine it's a party in the parking lot. I know it will be the same or similar but will be interesting discussing wine making with a different group of people.


----------



## TemperanceOwl

mainshipfred said:


> I asked him if people bring wine to the pick up and he told me "we bring wine to everythng" so I imagine it's a party in the parking lot. I know it will be the same or similar but will be interesting discussing wine making with a different group of people.



That sounds like fun! Are all of you up in CT, PA, and MD? 
I'm in northeast TN, close to VA and NC, and I haven't found any suppliers within driving distance.


----------



## mainshipfred

TemperanceOwl said:


> That sounds like fun! Are all of you up in CT, PA, and MD?
> I'm in northeast TN, close to VA and NC, and I haven't found any suppliers within driving distance.



It does sound like fun doesn't it. You got it for the locales and also NJ. This may not be driving distance either, 5-6 hours. I just googled it.


----------



## jgareri

Ajmassa5983 said:


> $74View attachment 50676


In Canada we are getting some and I have 3 lugs on order. I'm excited that it's worthwhile. As a side note, were paying $93 Canadian for them


----------



## pgentile

Check out Presque Isle Wine price list. Lot's of local grapes and juices. They only offer 4 kinds of CV Cali grapes, prices are a little high for those. They ferment what they don't sell and offer "young wine" per gal.. They still have Australian juice buckets available for shipping. The Gruner Veltliner grapes must be popular, they are sold out, and with Pinot Gris and Reisling are the most expensive of the local stuff. 

https://www.piwine.com/media/piwc-juice-grapes/2018-retail-harvest-order-form.pdf


----------



## gitmo234

I'm holding out with Fred a bit, but either way I'm doing enough for about 20 gallons of Tempranillo and maybe (just maybe) a smaller batch of something else.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Check out Presque Isle Wine price list. Lot's of local grapes and juices. They only offer 4 kinds of CV Cali grapes, prices are a little high for those. They ferment what they don't sell and offer "young wine" per gal.. They still have Australian juice buckets available for shipping. The Gruner Veltliner grapes must be popular, they are sold out, and with Pinot Gris and Reisling are the most expensive of the local stuff.
> 
> https://www.piwine.com/media/piwc-juice-grapes/2018-retail-harvest-order-form.pdf



Prices are a bit high but I like they have a futures report. Too far for me to go though.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Prices are a bit high but I like they have a futures report. Too far for me to go though.


Same here, just thought it interesting


----------



## jgmann67

Well, I pulled the trigger this morning and put my order in with the Washington Winemakers. Going with 4 lugs and a bucket of OVZ. That should make about 5 cases of decent wine. 

I've been toying with the idea of adding some berries (blackberries and raspberries) to a wine. Thoughts?


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger this morning and put my order in with the Washington Winemakers. Going with 4 lugs and a bucket of OVZ. That should make about 5 cases of decent wine.
> 
> I've been toying with the idea of adding some berries (blackberries and raspberries) to a wine. Thoughts?



No thoughts on the berries for the Zin but glad you chose WW, have a chance to see you again.


----------



## Boatboy24

With a Lodi OVZ, I wouldn't add anything.

Hope to see you at the pickup in a few weeks.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> With a Lodi OVZ, I wouldn't add anything.
> 
> Hope to see you at the pickup in a few weeks.



Jim, did you decide what you were going to get yet. I'm giving S&S till tomorrow to publish their prices. Then will placing my order. Still not exactly sure what though. That's boatboy Jim, It's clear what jgman Jim is getting.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Jim, did you decide what you were going to get yet. I'm giving S&S till tomorrow to publish their prices. Then will placing my order. Still not exactly sure what though. That's boatboy Jim, It's clear what jgman Jim is getting.



Cab, Zin, Syrah, Petite Sirah.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Cab, Zin, Syrah, Petite Sirah.


 
Right now I'm thinking Cab Franc, Petite Sirah, Tempranillo and Sauv Blanc from grapes. I may take Paul up on his offer to stop by Procacci for the Brunello if they are in yet and still hoping for the Tannat. But the Nebbiola and Touriga Nacional look interesting. Final answer tomorrow. I really wanted a Petit Verdot to complete my Bourdeaux selection.


----------



## Kraffty

It so sucks that I have nothing to add to this seasons winemaking. At least I can live vicariously through and wish you all a successful season! Looking forward to pics of Crush,
All the best guys.
Mike


----------



## Ajmassa

Kraffty said:


> It so sucks that I have nothing to add to this seasons winemaking. At least I can live vicariously through and wish you all a successful season! Looking forward to pics of Crush,
> All the best guys.
> Mike



At full capacity ?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Right now I'm thinking Cab Franc, Petite Sirah, Tempranillo and Sauv Blanc from grapes. I may take Paul up on his offer to stop by Procacci for the Brunello if they are in yet and still hoping for the Tannat. But the Nebbiola and Touriga Nacional look interesting. Final answer tomorrow. I really wanted a Petit Verdot to complete my Bourdeaux selection.



Fred, Let me know. All the premium grapes are in at Procacci.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Fred, Let me know. All the premium grapes are in at Procacci.



Thanks Paul. S&S won't have their pricing out till next week so I'm now making my final order with WW. I will let you know soon. I may go with a premium and regular. Do you think the premium Zin is old vine?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Thanks Paul. S&S won't have their pricing out till next week so I'm now making my final order with WW. I will let you know soon. I may go with a premium and regular. Do you think the premium Zin is old vine?



That's what I was told, he also said the Prem Zin is at 26 brix, but I was told the same thing from Gino's with the Pinotage in the spring but it was 23 brix. No worries, let me know by saturday evening


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> That's what I was told, he also said the Prem Zin is at 26 brix, but I was told the same thing from Gino's with the Pinotage in the spring but it was 23 brix. No worries, let me know by saturday evening



How is the Pinotage? I keep meaning to ask you.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> How is the Pinotage? I keep meaning to ask you.



It's going to be time to rack again in two weeks so i'll get a taste then, but 3 months ago it was tasting pretty good for a young wine.


----------



## mainshipfred

It was recommended for me to try a commercial bottle before deciding to make one myself since it didn't appeal to everyones taste. Is there something really different about it?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> It was recommended for me to try a commercial bottle before deciding to make one myself since it didn't appeal to everyones taste. Is there something really different about it?



I think with Pinotage it's gained a bad reputation for many years because it's a highly productive grape and commercially it was produced cheaply and thinly. It's a cross between Pinot Noir and Hermitage. I don't like many Pinot Noir's but when they good they are good. So I think for some it has that aspect about. Plus from what I've read when a Pinotage ferment goes bad it goes bad.(HeatherD). Pinotage benefits from a slighter hotter ferment and not too long on the skins. Pinotage is more full bodied than most Pinot's. So far so good on mine, like it a lot.


----------



## jgmann67

Got my email from Jim Gearing that they received my order. I asked him what time I should plan on being there. But, he said probably 9-10 a.m.He said they'd send around a schedule "a few days before the Blessed Event." That made me laugh a little..


----------



## gitmo234

I just dropped mine in the mail for WW. 6 x Tempranillo, 4 x Tourgia


----------



## mainshipfred

Mine is in the mail today. 3 Petite Sirah, 3 Touriga, 4 tempranillo and 3 Sauv Blanc. Possibly 4 Premium Syrah or OVZ from Procacci and still waiting on Tannat. Plus I am going to the S&S cook out on the 15th and see what they have. Doesn't compare to a lot of others but my biggest season to date not to mention first all grape season.


----------



## Boatboy24

Mine went in the mail today as well. 3 each of Cab, Zin, Syrah and Petite Sirah.


----------



## pgentile

Just finished crushing 4 lugs premium brunello and 4 lugs premium petite syrah from Procacci. According to them the Brunello is old vine sangiovese.

The brunello fruit was nice all the way through.

Petite syrah fruit is nice dark dense clusters, 2-4 partial raisined clusters per lug. Many leaves.

Will get numbers later today or tomorrow. I did add enzymes.


----------



## Boatboy24

It occurred to me that I put a bunch of supplies in my cart @ MoreWine the other night, but never purchased. Got the rest of my goodies ordered today as well. VP41, Acti-ML, Lallzyme, OptiRed, tartaric acid and yeast/nutrient/starter. BM4X4 for the cab, D254 on the Petite Sirah and RP15 for the Zin and Syrah.


----------



## CK55

Boatboy24 said:


> It occurred to me that I put a bunch of supplies in my cart @ MoreWine the other night, but never purchased. Got the rest of my goodies ordered today as well. VP41, Acti-ML, Lallzyme, OptiRed, tartaric acid and yeast/nutrient/starter. BM4X4 for the cab, D254 on the Petite Sirah and RP15 for the Zin and Syrah.


ordering lol. I buy at my local shop which is basically the only beer and wine store in the state of california period between LA and San Fran, thats not even a joke.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> It occurred to me that I put a bunch of supplies in my cart @ MoreWine the other night, but never purchased. Got the rest of my goodies ordered today as well. VP41, Acti-ML, Lallzyme, OptiRed, tartaric acid and yeast/nutrient/starter. BM4X4 for the cab, D254 on the Petite Sirah and RP15 for the Zin and Syrah.



Same here. Need to inventory what I have and order what I need.


----------



## pgentile

pgentile said:


> Just finished crushing 4 lugs premium brunello and 4 lugs premium petite syrah from Procacci. According to them the Brunello is old vine sangiovese.
> 
> The brunello fruit was nice all the way through.
> 
> Petite syrah fruit is nice dark dense clusters, 2-4 partial raisined clusters per lug. Many leaves.
> 
> Will get numbers later today or tomorrow. I did add enzymes.



Brunello pH 3.48 brix 23

Petite Syrah pH 3.82 brix 25

Will do TA in the morning


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> It occurred to me that I put a bunch of supplies in my cart @ MoreWine the other night, but never purchased. Got the rest of my goodies ordered today as well. VP41, Acti-ML, Lallzyme, OptiRed, tartaric acid and yeast/nutrient/starter. BM4X4 for the cab, D254 on the Petite Sirah and RP15 for the Zin and Syrah.



For once I was organized this year and have everything I need. Going back to RC212 on mine, CH16 MLB.


----------



## Matty_Kay

Finally decided on this years grapes, going with 4 lugs Zinderella OVZ, 4 lugs of Cab, 4 lugs Merlot and will go with 100 lbs of Concord from Lake Erie region when available in October. Super pumped this year because I picked up a crusher/destemmer. My dad and I destemmed by hand last year and it took all afternoon so decided against that going forward. Also grabbed and started a bucket of Gewurztraminer yesterday when picking up the C/D.


----------



## pgentile

Matty_Kay said:


> Finally decided on this years grapes, going with 4 lugs Zinderella OVZ, 4 lugs of Cab, 4 lugs Merlot and will go with 100 lbs of Concord from Lake Erie region when available in October. Super pumped this year because I picked up a crusher/destemmer. My dad and I destemmed by hand last year and it took all afternoon so decided against that going forward. Also grabbed and started a bucket of Gewurztraminer yesterday when picking up the C/D.



I looked hard at the Zinderella grapes. Good luck with it all.


----------



## jgmann67

Did a quick inventory - need Acti-ML, llalzyme, yeast and MLB. The go-ferm is starting to cake. But, looks serviceable.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just had my first 2 bathces tested with commercial equipment. Syrah brix 26.7 ph 4.08, Zin brix 22.7 ph 3.99. The winemaker told me to take them both down to 3.65 - 3.70. We were talking about chapitalizing the Zin but I think I'm going to keep it where it's at. It's one of the wineries I help at on occasion and while I was there we crushed and pressed 3 ton of Petite Manseng.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Just had my first 2 bathces tested with commercial equipment. Syrah brix 26.7 ph 4.08, Zin brix 22.7 ph 3.99. The winemaker told me to take them both down to 3.65 - 3.70. We were talking about chapitalizing the Zin but I think I'm going to keep it where it's at. It's one of the wineries I help at on occasion and while I was there we crushed and pressed 3 ton of Petite Manseng.



Hmmm. If your Zin is at 3.99 and you're doing an MLF, what are you shooting for as far as a starting pH? I know that an MLF will lower your pH, but I don't know by how much.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Hmmm. If your Zin is at 3.99 and you're doing an MLF, what are you shooting for as far as a starting pH? I know that an MLF will lower your pH, but I don't know by how much.



You must have been reading this on your phone and missed some of the post.LOL! 3.65 - 3.70


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Just had my first 2 bathces tested with commercial equipment. Syrah brix 26.7 ph 4.08, Zin brix 22.7 ph 3.99. The winemaker told me to take them both down to 3.65 - 3.70. We were talking about chapitalizing the Zin but I think I'm going to keep it where it's at. It's one of the wineries I help at on occasion and while I was there we crushed and pressed 3 ton of Petite Manseng.



Did you get any juice out of the Petite Manseng?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Did you get any juice out of the Petite Manseng?



No just what I got from tasting some grapes. Their harvest was 33% lower then normal so I didn't even ask. He also told me it wasn't quite ready to harvest but he was afraid of the coming rains and said 66% was better then nothing.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> You must have been reading this on your phone and missed some of the post.LOL! 3.65 - 3.70



Yep - missed that. So, you'll push it through an MLF and wind up where? 3.4 - 3.5?


----------



## Johnd

You didn't mention what the TA's were........... make sure you don't drive your TA too high out of range to get the pH down. You can manage a higher pH easier than you can drink a sour wine with too much acid in it...............


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Just had my first 2 bathces tested with commercial equipment. Syrah brix 26.7 ph 4.08, Zin brix 22.7 ph 3.99. The winemaker told me to take them both down to 3.65 - 3.70. We were talking about chapitalizing the Zin but I think I'm going to keep it where it's at. It's one of the wineries I help at on occasion and while I was there we crushed and pressed 3 ton of Petite Manseng.



And jumping right into it! Crossing that bridge which has been discussed at length recently. 

Going from 4.08 and 3.99 to 3.65-3.7 ish might require a lot of tartaric. And might jack up the TA in the process. Once you get TA numbers I’m interested to know how adjustments go. Because even if it’s not a focus, you still don’t wanna send TA through the roof. 
Also- if going all the way to 3.7, why stop there? Just a touch more to hit the magic number. Then hope for the best after MLF. 
This is the part of winemaking that separates the men from the boys. I dig it.


----------



## mainshipfred

I can't test anything right now since I can't calibrate the ph probe. my 4.01 solution won't go below 4.19 but the 7.00 solution is fine. I just opened a new bottle of both and I think the 4.01 is bad. Trying to get in touch with Vinmetrica now.


----------



## 4score

We had 2 bins of Cab Franc we just crushed Saturday. Both were 25 brix and 3.7 pH. We added tartaric to get to 3.5 (1 pound per bin). Assuming it will climb back to 3.7 post MLF. Also, on both bins, the brix climbed up to 26 after sitting for a day. But the real scare was when the meter read 2.8 after the first stir following the tartaric! You really need to give it time to integrate.


----------



## mainshipfred

4score said:


> We had 2 bins of Cab Franc we just crushed Saturday. Both were 25 brix and 3.7 pH. We added tartaric to get to 3.5 (1 pound per bin). Assuming it will climb back to 3.7 post MLF. Also, on both bins, the brix climbed up to 26 after sitting for a day. But the real scare was when the meter read 2.8 after the first stir following the tartaric! You really need to give it time to integrate.



Absolutely, plus you don't know the buffering capacities so you really have to wait a little. I always use the 1/2 to 3/4 rule when making additions.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I can't test anything right now since I can't calibrate the ph probe. my 4.01 solution won't go below 4.19 but the 7.00 solution is fine. I just opened a new bottle of both and I think the 4.01 is bad. Trying to get in touch with Vinmetrica now.



Just kick it old school and go by color change


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Just kick it old school and go by color change



If your borderline color blind it just doesn't work. What's even worse is trying to do a manual titration. Just got off the phone with Vinmetrica. They had to walk me through rebuting the meter. Seems OK now but they recommended I do a final test with cream of tartar. See below:

pH test with cream of tartar

A quick way to check your calibration and pH accuracy is to measure the pH of a saturated solution of cream of tartar which has a pH of 3.56 at 25 degrees celsius:
a. Get pure cream of tartar (grocery store stuff is fine, provided it’s pure), or even better is reagent grade potassium hydrogen tartrate, also known as potassium acid tartrate or potassium bitartrate. Call it KHT for short.
b. Place about 1/4 teaspoon of KHT in 20 mL of distilled water. Mix well for about 30 seconds. You want to be sure the solution is saturated, i.e., everything that can dissolve, has dissolved. There should be some undissolved solid left.
c. Decant or filter the solution off the solids.
d. This solution has a standard pH of 3.56 at 25 degrees C (78 degrees F). It should be within 0.02 pH of this value at temperatures from 20 to 30 degrees Celsius. Discard after 24 hours.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> If your borderline color blind it just doesn't work. What's even worse is trying to do a manual titration. Just got off the phone with Vinmetrica. They had to walk me through rebuting the meter. Seems OK now but they recommended I do a final test with cream of tartar. See below:
> 
> pH test with cream of tartar
> 
> A quick way to check your calibration and pH accuracy is to measure the pH of a saturated solution of cream of tartar which has a pH of 3.56 at 25 degrees celsius:
> a. Get pure cream of tartar (grocery store stuff is fine, provided it’s pure), or even better is reagent grade potassium hydrogen tartrate, also known as potassium acid tartrate or potassium bitartrate. Call it KHT for short.
> b. Place about 1/4 teaspoon of KHT in 20 mL of distilled water. Mix well for about 30 seconds. You want to be sure the solution is saturated, i.e., everything that can dissolve, has dissolved. There should be some undissolved solid left.
> c. Decant or filter the solution off the solids.
> d. This solution has a standard pH of 3.56 at 25 degrees C (78 degrees F). It should be within 0.02 pH of this value at temperatures from 20 to 30 degrees Celsius. Discard after 24 hours.



Yikes. Sounds like work. And a trip to store. Just stick it in another wine you made that you know the ph of.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yikes. Sounds like work. And a trip to store. Just stick it in another wine you made that you know the ph of.



Great minds you know. I already did that in 3 different. Appears to be fine. Still going to do the test just because it's a new thing.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Great minds you know. I already did that in 3 different. Appears to be fine. Still going to do the test just because it's a new thing.



Rock and roll


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Yep - missed that. So, you'll push it through an MLF and wind up where? 3.4 - 3.5?



I'm not 100% sure but I thought it went the other way. I thought MLF increased the ph..


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> I'm not 100% sure but I thought it went the other way. I thought MLF increased the ph..



I get them confused a lot. It will increase your pH by .2 to .3 (decreasing acidity).


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I'm not 100% sure but I thought it went the other way. I thought MLF increased the ph..



It does.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Just had my first 2 bathces tested with commercial equipment. Syrah brix 26.7 ph 4.08, Zin brix 22.7 ph 3.99. The winemaker told me to take them both down to 3.65 - 3.70. We were talking about chapitalizing the Zin but I think I'm going to keep it where it's at. It's one of the wineries I help at on occasion and while I was there we crushed and pressed 3 ton of Petite Manseng.



I'm surprised at these numbers, the way they talked at procacci the zin was supposed to be 26 brix. I didn't adjust my petite sirah at 3.82 TA was .60. Hope I don't rue that.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> I'm surprised at these numbers, the way they talked at procacci the zin was supposed to be 26 brix. I didn't adjust my petite sirah at 3.82 TA was .60. Hope I don't rue that.


You're fine. Taste it and check the pH after MLF is complete and you've degassed a sample, you may have to up the SO2 when you bottle it if the pH is on the higher end. If it doesn't taste right do some bench tests lowering the pH in small increments. If you like the taste you didn't "rue" it, it's your wine.


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> You're fine. Taste it and check the pH after MLF is complete and you've degassed a sample, you may have to up the SO2 when you bottle it if the pH is on the higher end. If it doesn't taste right do some bench tests lowering the pH in small increments. If you like the taste you didn't "rue" it, it's your wine.


Thanks Craig you confirmed my thinking.


----------



## Steve_M

Thoughts on the following for this years grape selection;
Cabernet Sauvignon 54%
Merlot 40%
Petit Verdot 3%
Cabernet Franc 3%
What if anything would you change or switch in/out?


----------



## Boatboy24

Steve_M said:


> Thoughts on the following for this years grape selection;
> Cabernet Sauvignon 54%
> Merlot 40%
> Petit Verdot 3%
> Cabernet Franc 3%
> What if anything would you change or switch in/out?



I like the sounds of it, but wouldn't finalize anything until I did some taste trials.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I'm surprised at these numbers, the way they talked at procacci the zin was supposed to be 26 brix. I didn't adjust my petite sirah at 3.82 TA was .60. Hope I don't rue that.



Paul, call me thick but I don't think I'm reaing something right. So you didn't adjust the TA of 3.82. What was .60?


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Paul, call me thick but I don't think I'm reaing something right. So you didn't adjust the TA of 3.82. What was .60?


pH 3.82 TA .6


----------



## pgentile

Went to pitch the MLB yesterday and noticed they sent me opti-malo instead of act-malo, which I already had. Ended up just adding the CH16 directly to the must after adding opt-malo to the must.

Pitched Rc212 sunday am. Cap is up and ferment is vigorous on the brunello. The petite sirah is fermenting just as vigorously but the dark inky viscous juice is having trouble holding the cap up as high. 

Aromas are delightful right now. Hits you as soon as you enter the house.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Went to pitch the MLB yesterday and noticed they sent me opti-malo instead of act-malo, which I already had. Ended up just adding the CH16 directly to the must after adding opt-malo to the must.
> 
> Pitched Rc212 sunday am. Cap is up and ferment is vigorous on the brunello. The petite sirah is fermenting just as vigorously but the dark inky viscous juice is having trouble holding the cap up as high.
> 
> Aromas are delightful right now. Hits you as soon as you enter the house.


Your co-innoculating so I think you'll be fine. The acti-malo helps the MLB survive the harsh environment present in a fully fermented wine. Plus RC-212 doesn't seem to create a super harsh environment (SO2 wise) as some of the other yeasts. I'd drink a glass or beer/wine and enjoy the blurping (or burping) noises.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Went to pitch the MLB yesterday and noticed they sent me opti-malo instead of act-malo, which I already had. Ended up just adding the CH16 directly to the must after adding opt-malo to the must.
> 
> Pitched Rc212 sunday am. Cap is up and ferment is vigorous on the brunello. The petite sirah is fermenting just as vigorously but the dark inky viscous juice is having trouble holding the cap up as high.
> 
> Aromas are delightful right now. Hits you as soon as you enter the house.



I've only ever used opti-malo. Never rehydrated with acti-malo, didn't even know it existed. I'll have to try it but unfortunately my fall yeast and additive order arrrived today and don't think I missed anything.


----------



## mainshipfred

This should probably go in another thread but going to post here. My formula for calculating potential ABV is starting minus finish SG X 131. If I have a must of 26.7 brix or 1.114 SG the math takes me to 21.49% alcohol using a finish gravity of .95. Now I know my yeast will die off before and if it didn't I wouldn't want it that high anyway. What am I doing wrong. I really don't want to water it back.


----------



## Ajmassa

Talked to Lenny Procacci today. They have more trucks coming in this week with all new stuff. And trucks will continue coming into October as well. 
Got my old man coming by this wknd and will be making the D**o red batch. Meant as a throwback no frills stress free type batch. Still mulling it over- but may go au natural. No yeast. No adjustment/malo or anything. Just crush and let ‘er rip. Like the good old days. 
I don’t think 6 gallons will be enough tho. Upping to 15. This is the wine we drink waiting for the rest to age. 

**noticed my ph55 meter dried out. Not sure how long ago. Rinsed off the salty chemical deposits— dropped in the 7.0 and 4.0. Both right on the money. Hats off to Milwaukee


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> This should probably go in another thread but going to post here. My formula for calculating potential ABV is starting minus finish SG X 131. If I have a must of 26.7 brix or 1.114 SG the math takes me to 21.49% alcohol using a finish gravity of .95. Now I know my yeast will die off before and if it didn't I wouldn't want it that high anyway. What am I doing wrong. I really don't want to water it back.



Brix calculator comes up with 16.5 ABV for 26.7 brix.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> This should probably go in another thread but going to post here. My formula for calculating potential ABV is starting minus finish SG X 131. If I have a must of 26.7 brix or 1.114 SG the math takes me to 21.49% alcohol using a finish gravity of .95. Now I know my yeast will die off before and if it didn't I wouldn't want it that high anyway. What am I doing wrong. I really don't want to water it back.



Your calculations are off, at least according to FermCalc, which is what I use for all of my winemaking calculations. Fermcalc says that a starting point of 1.114 and ending of .995 yields an ABV of between 15.9 and 16.6, depending upon which calc method you choose. At any rate, that's still a bit stout for most wines, and watering back with acidulated water is pretty much the norm unless you have a lower BRIX must you can blend it with. I've had to water back a few times, and didn't really like the concept, but in the end, the wine turned out wonderful.................


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Talked to Lenny Procacci today. They have more trucks coming in this week with all new stuff. And trucks will continue coming into October as well.
> Got my old man coming by this wknd and will be making the D**o red batch. Meant as a throwback no frills stress free type batch. Still mulling it over- but may go au natural. No yeast. No adjustment/malo or anything. Just crush and let ‘er rip. Like the good old days.
> I don’t think 6 gallons will be enough tho. Upping to 15. This is the wine we drink waiting for the rest to age.
> 
> **noticed my ph55 meter dried out. Not sure how long ago. Rinsed off the salty chemical deposits— dropped in the 7.0 and 4.0. Both right on the money. Hats off to Milwaukee



Gino's said 9/24 for Paso Robles grapes.

Good luck with D*go Red. I say go au natural. But it's not my grapes.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Brix calculator comes up with 16.5 ABV for 26.7 brix.
> 
> https://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/



Thanks, I used that but I think the numbers are based on a finish SG of 1.000. AJ and I discussed other calculations that use 1.000 as a base line but I don't remember what they were.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> This should probably go in another thread but going to post here. My formula for calculating potential ABV is starting minus finish SG X 131. If I have a must of 26.7 brix or 1.114 SG the math takes me to 21.49% alcohol using a finish gravity of .95. Now I know my yeast will die off before and if it didn't I wouldn't want it that high anyway. What am I doing wrong. I really don't want to water it back.



You already got the gist of the answer from others, but what specifically you did wrong was use 0.950 instead of 0.995 as your final gravity.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Gino's said 9/24 for Paso Robles grapes.
> 
> Good luck with D*go Red. I say go au natural. But it's not my grapes.



I think so too. Perfect opportunity to give it a go. From what I’ve read it may take a little longer to go dry—— which is a good thing 

Gonna need another demijohn too. Which I’m happy about. I have 2 and they’re dark green glass which always annoyed me. And Pintos sells em cheap. Wanna grab the 8.8gal too if they have it. Had none in May.


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Your calculations are off, at least according to FermCalc, which is what I use for all of my winemaking calculations. Fermcalc says that a starting point of 1.114 and ending of .995 yields an ABV of between 15.9 and 16.6, depending upon which calc method you choose. At any rate, that's still a bit stout for most wines, and watering back with acidulated water is pretty much the norm unless you have a lower BRIX must you can blend it with. I've had to water back a few times, and didn't really like the concept, but in the end, the wine turned out wonderful.................



I didn't try it with Fermcalc good thought. I know it's close but the sample I took was from the top of one of two 6 gallons buckets of must shortly after crushing. Not sure if it's a true representation. It's being cold stabilized right now so I'll take it again in a few days before I make any additions. I'm going to use Syrah and Rhone 4600 plus one other yeast I haven't decided yet. Rhone 4600 has a high glycerol production so the perceived sweetness might be a nice offset of the high alcohol.


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> You already got the gist of the answer from others, but what specifically you did wrong was use 0.950 instead of 0.995 as your final gravity.



Brother Paul, you would be the one who found the problem. Thank you, I now have 15.59 ABV


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I think so too. Perfect opportunity to give it a go. From what I’ve read it may take a little longer to go dry—— which is a good thing
> 
> Gonna need another demijohn too. Which I’m happy about. I have 2 and they’re dark green glass which always annoyed me. And Pintos sells em cheap. Wanna grab the 8.8gal too if they have it. Had none in May.



I'm by no means an expert on natural fermentation but it was always my understanding native yeasts often die off before the wine goes dry. Again based on nothing but what read or heard.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I'm by no means an expert on natural fermentation but it was always my understanding native yeasts often die off before the wine goes dry. Again based on nothing but what read or heard.



To get around this issue of “not finishing dry” my family had an incredible system. It was to not own a hydromter. Problem solved. 
If the ferment stops just shy of dry then that’s just where the wine gods intended it to be.


----------



## Ajmassa




----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I've only ever used opti-malo. Never rehydrated with acti-malo, didn't even know it existed. I'll have to try it but unfortunately my fall yeast and additive order arrrived today and don't think I missed anything.



Fred: let me take inventory, but I may have extra Acti-ML.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Fred: let me take inventory, but I may have extra Acti-ML.



Thanks Jim,I was wrong, what I have is acti-malo so I need the opti but I have plenty of time to get it plus I think it is one of the few things MLHBs has.


----------



## Boatboy24

I have Opti-Malo as well.

What I failed to realize, however is that I have only 3 Brutes and 4 batches of wine about to be underway simultaneously. Glad I realized that now, and not next weekend. Off to Home Depot...


----------



## Ajmassa

I never have any lefover Acti-ML. I buy the 50g bags and entire bag gets used on 2.5g of bacteria


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I have Opti-Malo as well.
> 
> What I failed to realize, however is that I have only 3 Brutes and 4 batches of wine about to be underway simultaneously. Glad I realized that now, and not next weekend. Off to Home Depot...



Or use multiple juice buckets and different yeasts.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Or use multiple juice buckets and different yeasts.



Lol. Don’t be trying to bait others into using your “mad scientist drunk on 500 different yeast” methods!


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> I have Opti-Malo as well.
> 
> What I failed to realize, however is that I have only 3 Brutes and 4 batches of wine about to be underway simultaneously. Glad I realized that now, and not next weekend. Off to Home Depot...



I have an extra brute (two actually) if you need to borrow one. Since I only do fresh grapes in the fall, there's no rush getting it back to me, either.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Lol. Don’t be trying to bait others into using your “mad scientist drunk on 500 different yeast” methods!



Umm I believe you already started doing it yourself. Next time along with the D80 and D254 you might want to try adding D47 to the mix.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I have an extra brute (two actually) if you need to borrow one. Since I only do fresh grapes in the fall, there's no rush getting it back to me, either.



Very generous of you - thanks Jim. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised I don't have 4 - I do 4 varietals almost every fall. This gives me a good excuse to buy another.


----------



## mainshipfred

I just found a winery in VA that couldn't be further away that is closing. Their auction is Friday but online bidding started today. I bid $300.00 for 3 pallets of dark Bourdeaux bottles. I believe there are 56 cases per pallet. May go as high as $600.00 but I will have to pay for shipping. Not that I'll get it but will be fun trying. Also bid $25.00 for 2 thousand natural corks.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I just found a winery in VA that couldn't be further away that is closing. Their auction is Friday but online bidding started today. I bid $300.00 for 3 pallets of dark Bourdeaux bottles. I believe there are 56 cases per pallet. May go as high as $600.00 but I will have to pay for shipping. Not that I'll get it but will be fun trying. Also bid $25.00 for 2 thousand natural corks.



That should get you through the fall. Great prices if you get them


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I just found a winery in VA that couldn't be further away that is closing. Their auction is Friday but online bidding started today. I bid $300.00 for 3 pallets of dark Bourdeaux bottles. I believe there are 56 cases per pallet. May go as high as $600.00 but I will have to pay for shipping. Not that I'll get it but will be fun trying. Also bid $25.00 for 2 thousand natural corks.



Make it interesting and grab a c/d or large press. Heck, maybe they have a bottling line.


----------



## ibglowin

But you live in Virginia......... Why wouldn't you just go pick them up your self?



mainshipfred said:


> I just found a winery in VA that couldn't be further away that is closing. Their auction is Friday but online bidding started today. I bid $300.00 for 3 pallets of dark Bourdeaux bottles. I believe there are 56 cases per pallet. May go as high as $600.00 but I will have to pay for shipping. Not that I'll get it but will be fun trying. Also bid $25.00 for 2 thousand natural corks.


----------



## mainshipfred

I don't have high hopes of getting them but if I do there will be plenty to go around.


----------



## mainshipfred

ibglowin said:


> But you live in Virginia......... Why wouldn't you just go pick them up your self?



It's about a 5.5 hr drive each way, my truck will only allow me to take 2 at a time and my trailer is fully loaded. But this is the cart before the horse, really not expecting to win the bid at around $4.00 per case.


----------



## mainshipfred

mainshipfred said:


> I don't have high hopes of getting them but if I do there will be plenty to go around.



16 hours left and I'm winning at $160.00 and the corks for $5.00. The bid ends tomorrow at 10:00 AM so I know that is when all the action will take place. Shipping cost is $355.00 so I'n not going to go much higher then $300.00 or maybe I will it's still under $5.00/case.


----------



## mainshipfred

If anyone cares S&S's current price list is on their website. Similar prices to everyone else. I'm going to their cookout tomorrow. If something looks spectacular I'll get something but happy with what I already have.


----------



## pgentile

Fall update: Crushed last saturday, pitched on sunday, solid ferments all week and today the caps are starting to fall. RC212 gave zero off odors this time around. Will do hydrometer readings in the am. Thinking about not pressing these batches yet, but siphoning off the free run and then put juice buckets on the unpressed grapes. When the juice buckets are finished fermenting siphon off the free run and then press the grapes.

brunello/sangio skins - two buckets alicante 

petite sirah skins - two buckets of nebiollo

Will probably change my mind 12 times by tomorrow.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Fall update: Crushed last saturday, pitched on sunday, solid ferments all week and today the caps are starting to fall. RC212 gave zero off odors this time around. Will do hydrometer readings in the am. Thinking about not pressing these batches yet, but siphoning off the free run and then put juice buckets on the unpressed grapes. When the juice buckets are finished fermenting siphon off the free run and then press the grapes.
> 
> brunello/sangio skins - two buckets alicante
> 
> petite sirah skins - two buckets of nebiollo
> 
> Will probably change my mind 12 times by tomorrow.



Sound good, my (multiple) reused skins from the spring made some potentially decent wine. I've also been thinking about getting some buckets for all these skins (25 lugs worth) but promised myself I was only going to do grapes this fall.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Sound good, my (multiple) reused skins from the spring made some potentially decent wine. I've also been thinking about getting some buckets for all these skins (25 lugs worth) but promised myself I was only going to do grapes this fall.



That's a lot of skins but you could always freeze some. I want to do all all-grape batches as well, but it's hard to pass up the cost of the buckets for making good table wine to drink while the all-grape batches are aging properly.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> That's a lot of skins but you could always freeze some. I want to do all all-grape batches as well, but it's hard to pass up the cost of the buckets for making good table wine to drink while the all-grape batches are aging properly.



Oh I'm with you. Like I said even using the spring skins multiple times it still produced some good bucket wine and especially if you are going to lightly press or use only free run. If you're going to change your mind 12 time by tomorrow just think how many times mine will change in two weeks. I was also thinking of a second run with all of them combined and not much water. It will be a Syrah/Zin/P Sirah/Touriga/Tempranillo/ Sauv Blanc (yes the white too)/mystery S&S blend with who knows how many yeasts.


----------



## mainshipfred

Didn't get the corks or the bottles. Bottles went for $710.00 and corks $75.00. I was still bidding both but they either cater to the onsite bidders or the internet is too slow. I was planning on going as high as $800.00 for the 3 pallets of botles


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> It will be a Syrah/Zin/P Sirah/Touriga/Tempranillo/ Sauv Blanc (yes the white too)/mystery S&S blend with who knows how many yeasts.



sounds like a winner to me.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Didn't get the corks or the bottles. Bottles went for $710.00 and corks $75.00. I was still bidding both but they either cater to the onsite bidders or the internet is too slow. I was planning on going as high as $800.00 for the 3 pallets of botles


That stinks, but it was a heck of lot of bottles.


----------



## Steve_M

Picked up our grapes this morning down at Corrado’s. Went with;
10 Petit Syrah 
5 OVZ
2 Cabernet Sauvignon 
1Merlot. 
After crushing sorted out as many stems as we could. ( finally convinced my group to get a crusher/Debye)
Numbers are;
Ph 3.75
TA 6G/L
Brix 23
As for TA and Ph like to lower it some, think I need to? Will retest tomorrow. 

Steve


----------



## pgentile

Steve_M said:


> Picked up our grapes this morning down at Corrado’s. Went with;
> 10 Petit Syrah
> 5 OVZ
> 2 Cabernet Sauvignon
> 1Merlot.
> After crushing sorted out as many stems as we could. ( finally convinced my group to get a crusher/Debye)
> Numbers are;
> Ph 3.75
> TA 6G/L
> Brix 23
> As for TA and Ph like to lower it some, think I need to? Will retest tomorrow.
> 
> Steve



Field blend?

My petite sirah was 3.82 at crush last saturday, I didn't adjust it. Siphoned off free run today. Will test again and taste after gross lees rack.


----------



## pgentile

10 gl of free run from the brunello and 8 gl from the petite sirah. Each was 144lbs of grapes. didn't press the grapes, added 2 bucket alicante to the brunello and 2 buckets nebiollo to the petit sirah.

I use a stainless steel colander to rack the free run.





Can you tell which is the brunello/sangiovese and which is the petite sirah. The two in front.


----------



## Steve_M

pgentile said:


> Field blend?
> 
> My petite sirah was 3.82 at crush last saturday, I didn't adjust it. Siphoned off free run today. Will test again and taste after gross lees rack.


Yes forgot to mention field blended, will pitch BM4X4 tomorrow. Added Lallzyme EX, Opti Red will also be added tomorrow. 

Steve


----------



## pgentile

Steve_M said:


> Yes forgot to mention field blended, will pitch BM4X4 tomorrow. Added Lallzyme EX, Opti Red will also be added tomorrow.
> 
> Steve



Sounds good, I like the line-up of your blend.


----------



## mainshipfred

For those in the S&S area I just returned and here is the skinny. First of all it was a very informal cookout, not really a cookout more like catered but very good. Grilled vegetables the brussel sprouts were great, meatballs, italian sausage with onions and peppers and a pasta dish plus raw veggies, fruit, cheese plate and breads. It was set up on their loading dock and appeared to be mainly people who have bought from them previously. Seems like a lot of folks knew eachother. They served some of their wine but people also brought their own. I went inside to look at some of the grapes which were limited, evidently one of the trucks got held up with the hurricane. When I asked the guy about the shortage of grapes and started asking questions he said "are you Fred Black" kind of blew me away. He then made sure I met Audry the lady who runs the website. Then while talking to her she introduced me to Ben Sudano. Here's the part that may interest some that may have had a bad experience in the past. Ben told me for years (I'm talking until this year) they did things the way their grandafather did things which was by word of mouth and past customers only. They had a website but that was about it noone to monitor it. So they admitted they unintentionally turned some people away. I have to say everyone was very nice and Ben must have talked to us for 30 minutes. He knows Kevin at Harford and the Procacci and Gino Pinto families The grapes they had all looked very nice and the storage temp was really cold. I'm probably going to stop next Saturday and get some Nebbiola that is on the truck they didn't receive.


----------



## Boatboy24

Thanks Fred. You may have answered this before, but are they Lodi grapes?

Did you guys see the email from Jim Gearing about our delivery being delayed a week? 9/29 is now the day. Kinda stinks, as I have a half marathon the next morning and was planning on not doing much of anything that day. Oh well, them's the breaks.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Thanks Fred. You may have answered this before, but are they Lodi grapes?
> 
> Did you guys see the email from Jim Gearing about our delivery being delayed a week? 9/29 is now the day. Kinda stinks, as I have a half marathon the next morning and was planning on not doing much of anything that day. Oh well, them's the breaks.



Just now... guess we have another week to prep. My brother in law and his wife are visiting from Texas that weekend. Going to need to run down and back so I don't cheese Mrs Mann...


----------



## mainshipfred

Got an email today from Washington Winemakers. It said the grapes weren't ripe yet because the weather was cooler first 2 weeks of September. They supposedly come from Lodi or at least the Central Valley but both Procacci and S&S already have grapes from the same AVAs with good to very good brix. Kind of hard to understand why the WW grapes aren't ripe yet. I hope they are not waiting for the last varietals on their list to ripen while the others are all sitting in storage, especially the whites.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Thanks Fred. You may have answered this before, but are they Lodi grapes?
> 
> Did you guys see the email from Jim Gearing about our delivery being delayed a week? 9/29 is now the day. Kinda stinks, as I have a half marathon the next morning and was planning on not doing much of anything that day. Oh well, them's the breaks.



Yeah, I have a birthday party to go to on the 29th at 2 Silos. It's not until 3:00 but still kills my crush plans, plus I want to help Gitmo with his first crush and you if you needed it. I'll probably get everything ready and do the calculation for his preferm additives, except for the acid adjustment if needed, and crush mine on Sunday.

Not that I need any more grapes this season but I'll probably go to S&S on Saturday for the Nebbiola or Cab Franc if you or Chris are interested in coming along.


----------



## mainshipfred

Doing something for the first time this fall. I'm fermenting the wine in my walk-in that I bumped up to 65*. I waited a day for the yeast to start forming the cap before I put them in. The wine temp is hovering around 72-74*. All the yeasts (6 of them) are good as low as 65*. Will follow the recommended nutrient protocol and maybe remove them towards the end of AF.


----------



## gitmo234

mainshipfred said:


> Got an email today from Washington Winemakers. It said the grapes weren't ripe yet because the weather was cooler first 2 weeks of September. They supposedly come from Lodi or at least the Central Valley but both Procacci and S&S already have grapes from the same AVAs with good to very good brix. Kind of hard to understand why the WW grapes aren't ripe yet. I hope they are not waiting for the last varietals on their list to ripen while the others are all sitting in storage, especially the whites.



I didnt get that email. Are they implying a delay in delivery?


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Just now... guess we have another week to prep. My brother in law and his wife are visiting from Texas that weekend. Going to need to run down and back so I don't cheese Mrs Mann...



Good news! You'll have helpers! You should get a C/D and have everyone participate!


----------



## Boatboy24

gitmo234 said:


> I didnt get that email. Are they implying a delay in delivery?



1 week. Pickup 9/29 now. 

@mainshipfred and @gitmo234 : Are you getting them to crush? I'm not. Just planning on pickup up and coming home to get my family to help with that.


----------



## Johnd

gitmo234 said:


> I didnt get that email. Are they implying a delay in delivery?



My supplier handles mostly Lodi grapes and when I spoke to him last week right after he visited the vineyards, he doesn’t anticipate his men picking the big red grapes (like Cab, Petite Sirah, etc.) until late September / early October. It’s nice talking to and buying straight from the guy who visits the vineyards, checks the numbers, pays the pickers, and sells the product.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Good news! You'll have helpers! You should get a C/D and have everyone participate!



Thanks. They’ll get a chance to see what happens after hitting it with SO2. 

I’m getting mine crushed and destemmed while I’m down there with WW and heading home.


----------



## gitmo234

I'm going to crush with Fred.
The issue now is that gives me about 3 days to get setup before I'm on a work trip for 3 weeks, instead of fermenting immediately, pressing, and racking.


----------



## porkchopmessiah

@ Ajmassa5983 , I m up in Bergen county and just picked up a 6gall Sangiovese from Corrados....you go there often?


----------



## Ajmassa

porkchopmessiah said:


> @ Ajmassa5983 , I m up in Bergen county and just picked up a 6gall Sangiovese from Corrados....you go there often?



Nope. Never been there....... until today!
Crushing my Muscat/Alicante/Zinfandel blend as we speak.


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> My supplier handles mostly Lodi grapes and when I spoke to him last week right after he visited the vineyards, he doesn’t anticipate his men picking the big red grapes (like Cab, Petite Sirah, etc.) until late September / early October. It’s nice talking to and buying straight from the guy who visits the vineyards, checks the numbers, pays the pickers, and sells the product.



That is nice to have someone looking out for you. But when I was at S&S they did have Cab and the brix was reportedly 26 and Procacci has had grapes for some time now. I just don't get it how grapes from the same AVA can ripen so differently. As I said before my Syrah that Paul got melast week was 26.7 brix and the OVZ was 23.5 and these were probably picked the week before. OVZ might not be the greatest but acceptable.


----------



## Johnd

Can’t say that I know about the microclimates within the AVA and where the respective vineyards are within it, I do know that it can easily make a difference. Cool fogs that don’t burn off til mid morning, cool evening temps, and different sun exposures affect ripening. Just like the wine we make, they ain’t ready til they’re ready..........


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Can’t say that I know about the microclimates within the AVA and where the respective vineyards are within it, I do know that it can easily make a difference. Cool fogs that don’t burn off til mid morning, cool evening temps, and different sun exposures affect ripening. Just like the wine we make, they ain’t ready til they’re ready..........



Did a little more research. The neither came from Central Valley. The Syrah was Madera AVA about 200 miles south and the Zin is in Cucamonga AVA I think. About 300 miles south. so they would ripen faster.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> That is nice to have someone looking out for you. But when I was at S&S they did have Cab and the brix was reportedly 26 and Procacci has had grapes for some time now. I just don't get it how grapes from the same AVA can ripen so differently. As I said before my Syrah that Paul got melast week was 26.7 brix and the OVZ was 23.5 and these were probably picked the week before. OVZ might not be the greatest but acceptable.



Procacci told AJ that trucks will be rolling every few days until early October. Pinto's told me the same thing, trucks rolling in until early october. So ripening/harvest throughout california is 2-3 months +/- depending on the weather. My bet is that the early grapes we see are from mostly those more southern AVA's. Regina/Pia probably buys from all over california, they sort and relabel. Even though the guys at Procacci told me Lodi and Central, they really don't know.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> Did a little more research. The neither came from Central Valley. The Syrah was Madera AVA about 200 miles south and the Zin is in Cucamonga AVA I think. About 300 miles south. so they would ripen faster.




Wouldn't Madera (halfway between Fresno and Merced) be considered to be very much in the Central Valley?


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> Wouldn't Madera (halfway between Fresno and Merced) be considered to be very much in the Central Valley?



This is the best AVA map I was able to find. The center of the valley is Lodi and the grouping I think is what they call Central Valley. Madera should show up pretty clearly and Cucamonga is 105 east of Disney. There is no mileage scale but they are a good distance away from Lodi.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Procacci told AJ that trucks will be rolling every few days until early October. Pinto's told me the same thing, trucks rolling in until early october. So ripening/harvest throughout california is 2-3 months +/- depending on the weather. My bet is that the early grapes we see are from mostly those more southern AVA's. Regina/Pia probably buys from all over california, they sort and relabel. Even though the guys at Procacci told me Lodi and Central, they really don't know.



I ready don't get why sourcing is so secretive. Zin was from Lamanuzzi and Pantaleo Vineyards, Delano CA and the Syrah Papagni Vineyards Madera CA. Apparently we will find out when we get the grapes.


----------



## Ajmassa

Careful now. This topic will take you down the rabbit hole.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I ready don't get why sourcing is so secretive. Zin was from Lamanuzzi and Pantaleo Vineyards, Delano CA and the Syrah Papagni Vineyards Madera CA. Apparently we will find out when we get the grapes.



me either, but Procacci is old school. Pinto's is upfront with it all.


----------



## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> This is the best AVA map I was able to find. The center of the valley is Lodi and the grouping I think is what they call Central Valley. Madera should show up pretty clearly and Cucamonga is 105 east of Disney. There is no mileage scale but they are a good distance away from Lodi.



Okay, I was actually confused by your original comment, and I really did not mean to take us to a geography lesson. I now realize that the important thing that you were trying to convey was that the grapes (from Madera) were from a place far south of Lodi. I didn't understand before, but I understand now.

Just for your info, the "Central Valley" is a large, large area. it spans from Redding in the North to Bakersfield in the south, a distance of ~450 miles. This is the area called "Inland Valleys" on your map. The northern part is called the Sacramento Valley, and southern part is called the San Joaquin Valley (obviously, after the rivers that drain them). Most of the grapes are grown in the San Joaquin Valley. Grapes grown anywhere in that region (either valley) are called "Central Valley grapes," and a lot of jug wine grapes are grown there. It accounts for more than 1/2 of all California wine.


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> Okay, I was actually confused by your original comment, and I really did not mean to take us to a geography lesson. I now realize that the important thing that you were trying to convey was that the gaps (from Madera) were from a place far south of Lodi. I didn't understand before, but I understand now.
> 
> Just for your info, the "Central Valley" is a large, large area. it spans from Redding in the North to Bakersfield in the south, a distance of ~450 miles. This is the area called "Inland Valleys" on your map. The northern part is called the Sacramento Valley, and southern part is called the San Joaquin Valley (obviously, after the rivers that drain them). Most of the grapes are grown in the San Joaquin Valley. Grapes grown anywhere in that region (either valley) are called "Central Valley grapes," and a lot of jug wine grapes are grown there. It accounts for more than 1/2 of all California wine.



Thanks Paul I needed the geography lesson to find the map. Before that I had no idea what was where. So that was a good thing. I have one posted on my desk overhead now.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Careful now. This topic will take you down the rabbit hole.


----------



## CDrew

sour_grapes said:


> Wouldn't Madera (halfway between Fresno and Merced) be considered to be very much in the Central Valley?




LOL-I see you ended up with a geography lesson, and yep-it's definitely the heart of the Central Valley. I live in Sacramento which is 2+ hours north but was just in Madera a few weeks ago. Lots and lots of flat land vines. HOT. No "delta breeze". And earlier this year, July and August were abnormally hot, so not surprising the harvest is coming in early.

Here in the north, it has cooled considerably the last few weeks which will likely slow down the harvest. I was worried I'd miss it being away in Alaska but I'm home and the pick is scheduled for next weekend. Getting 300 pounds of foothill Syrah first thing this Saturday and 300 pounds of Primitivo later in the morning, so this will be a busy weekend. 

But interestingly, the Cabernet we are getting from Clarksburg ( along the river and 20 minutes from home) is not even close to ripe with Brix of 19-21 and they are projecting harvest mid to late October. We got Cabernet from the same place last year on October 31! So even within what would be considered central valley, there is considerable difference in the local conditions. Clarksburg cools off fast at night due to the marine cooling that we are blessed with, and so even though its smack dab in the middle of the valley, the grapes take awhile to get fully ripe.

So the point is that the "Central Valley" can mean almost anything. It's an area the size of New York to North Carolina in length. There are dozens of local climate variations. It tends to be cropped for yield though especially in the south. Hence, most of America's bulk wine comes from there.

Hope your vintage is a good one! I am particularly stoked about the Syrah.


----------



## Ajmassa

@CDrew- Some great info you just passed on to us. Thanks for sharing that. 
The rabbit hole I mentioned is what happens to us east coasters when trying to determine where our grapes were grown. Between the local distributors, the packaging & shipping co., the labels on the crates, the distributors who are protective of their sources etc.... it can become quite a maze. 
I’m starting to realize that if your buying from Central Valley, to assume your grapes could be from just about anywhere. 
But when paying $3 per lb. for WA Rattlesnake hill AVA- is when I think it becomes an issue. High prices like that I think should warrant some more info.


----------



## mainshipfred

mainshipfred said:


> Doing something for the first time this fall. I'm fermenting the wine in my walk-in that I bumped up to 65*. I waited a day for the yeast to start forming the cap before I put them in. The wine temp is hovering around 72-74*. All the yeasts (6 of them) are good as low as 65*. Will follow the recommended nutrient protocol and maybe remove them towards the end of AF.



Update: I'm a little surprised how quickly the wine is fermenting in the box at 65*. Wine temperature holding pretty steady at +/- 75*. Syrah started at SG 1.114 pitched Friday and this morning the range was 1.040 to 1.050. Used Rhone 4600, Syrah and Clos. The Zin was pitched Saturday with a SG of 1.102 and also at 1.040 to 1.050 this morning. Yeast for this was R56, BMX and AMH. All yeasts were rehydrated with Go Ferm and a combination of Ferm O and K were added this morning. Pre fermentation additives were Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge. Prior to this the Must was in the freezer at 40* for a week. For no particular reason I was hoping this ferment would take 2 weeks.


----------



## CDrew

It's interesting that before I started reading this forum, I did not know California grapes got shipped east in "lugs" for wine making. Didn't really think about it or know what a lug was. We never see grapes in the flats you call lugs. Instead, we show up and our grapes come in bin carried by a tractor or fork lift or we have to go and pick them ourselves. I think we generally pay less for grapes too. But the Clarksburg place I mentioned will pick, crush/destem and pump into your fermenter for $1 per pound and these are really nice grapes. But reading here I am realizing it is a different game back east. I'm happy to live 90 minutes from Napa, 30 minutes from Lodi, and 40 minutes from Amador. I guess I should be making a lot more wine! Don't want to jam up your thread, but I'll try to edit with a couple of pics.

I am aware that a pick up truck would be nice, but you make do with what you have!


----------



## mainshipfred

CDrew said:


> It's interesting that before I started reading this forum, I did not know California grapes got shipped east in "lugs" for wine making. Didn't really think about it or know what a lug was. We never see grapes in the flats you call lugs. Instead, we show up and our grapes come in bin carried by a tractor or fork lift or we have to go and pick them ourselves. I think we generally pay less for grapes too. But the Clarksburg place I mentioned will pick, crush/destem and pump into your fermenter for $1 per pound and these are really nice grapes. But reading here I am realizing it is a different game back east. I'm happy to live 90 minutes from Napa, 30 minutes from Lodi, and 40 minutes from Amador. I guess I should be making a lot more wine! Don't want to jam up your thread, but I'll try to edit with a couple of pics.



Jam it up all you want. you're giving us good stuff.


----------



## Ajmassa

Some days just get the better of ya. Today was/is one of those days. The reason—- fruit flies. They have taken over the basement- 1st floor- garage - everywhere! I kill 30. 30 more pop up. I think I cleared the room. The next room is loaded. 100’s of them. 
Traps with wine/apple cider vinegar/fans/ zappers/shop vac/scrubbing down EVERYTHING- I doesnt matter. 
Not even touching the wine tonight. Lid off for few seconds is like an open invitation. 
 Tomorrow’s a new day

I give up. All I’ve done was waste time fighting em


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Update: I'm a little surprised how quickly the wine is fermenting in the box at 65*. Wine temperature holding pretty steady at +/- 75*. Syrah started at SG 1.114 pitched Friday and this morning the range was 1.040 to 1.050. Used Rhone 4600, Syrah and Clos. The Zin was pitched Saturday with a SG of 1.102 and also at 1.040 to 1.050 this morning. Yeast for this was R56, BMX and AMH. All yeasts were rehydrated with Go Ferm and a combination of Ferm O and K were added this morning. Pre fermentation additives were Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge. Prior to this the Must was in the freezer at 40* for a week. For no particular reason I was hoping this ferment would take 2 weeks.



How could you expect fermentation to take two weeks when you have hit these with every known yeast there is?


----------



## sour_grapes

pgentile said:


> How could you expect fermentation to take two weeks when you have hit these with every known yeast there is?



I think he has split his batch into several sub-batches, each with a different yeast. Or maybe I don't recognize sarcasm when I see it, Paul?


----------



## mainshipfred

sour_grapes said:


> I think he has split his batch into several sub-batches, each with a different yeast. Or maybe I don't recognize sarcasm when I see it, Paul?


 
Could be I don't know either. The sarcasm that is and yes it is several batches.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Some days just get the better of ya. Today was/is one of those days. The reason—- fruit flies. They have taken over the basement- 1st floor- garage - everywhere! I kill 30. 30 more pop up. I think I cleared the room. The next room is loaded. 100’s of them.
> Traps with wine/apple cider vinegar/fans/ zappers/shop vac/scrubbing down EVERYTHING- I doesnt matter.
> Not even touching the wine tonight. Lid off for few seconds is like an open invitation.
> Tomorrow’s a new day
> 
> I give up. All I’ve done was waste time fighting em



Sorry to hear that. They're a bear to get rid of.


----------



## pgentile

sour_grapes said:


> I think he has split his batch into several sub-batches, each with a different yeast. Or maybe I don't recognize sarcasm when I see it, Paul?



It was sarcasm, but I didn't realize it was in individual batches.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Could be I don't know either. The sarcasm that is and yes it is several batches.



Sarcasm all the way. Dang Fred, will you stop out doing me in the number and variety of batches, my basement is only so big.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Some days just get the better of ya. Today was/is one of those days. The reason—- fruit flies. They have taken over the basement- 1st floor- garage - everywhere! I kill 30. 30 more pop up. I think I cleared the room. The next room is loaded. 100’s of them.
> Traps with wine/apple cider vinegar/fans/ zappers/shop vac/scrubbing down EVERYTHING- I doesnt matter.
> Not even touching the wine tonight. Lid off for few seconds is like an open invitation.
> Tomorrow’s a new day
> 
> I give up. All I’ve done was waste time fighting em



I've been wondering about the lack of fruit flies in my wine operation this year, but I guess I know now they have been hanging over in jersey.


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Some days just get the better of ya. Today was/is one of those days. The reason—- fruit flies. They have taken over the basement- 1st floor- garage - everywhere! I kill 30. 30 more pop up. I think I cleared the room. The next room is loaded. 100’s of them.
> Traps with wine/apple cider vinegar/fans/ zappers/shop vac/scrubbing down EVERYTHING- I doesnt matter.
> Not even touching the wine tonight. Lid off for few seconds is like an open invitation.
> Tomorrow’s a new day
> 
> I give up. All I’ve done was waste time fighting em



I've got a handful in my wine room and it drives me insane. I couldn't imagine 100's of them.


----------



## stickman

Fruit flies are relentless, they can find their way in through the tiniest openings, window screens, roof vents, any cracks or crevices not absolutely caulked and sealed. The other issue is that they come in with the lugs at a development stage that looks like very small brown rice, about 1/10 the size of rice. These things are difficult to see unless you're looking for them, and they fall all over the place just like any other debris. The flies can emerge from the little brown cases at any time depending on when they were originally formed, then you're screwed, population explosion out of nowhere.


----------



## cmason1957

I always find that a fan turned on and running at a moderate speed blowing over my fermenting wine keeps them away from the wine, they can't fly in that turbulent air and bother other things, but not the wine.


----------



## Ajmassa

Well I asked for it in how I set up my wineroom. Sorting-crush-ferment-press-clean-age - all relegated to the basement. 
And, as we all know, crushing is quite messy. Pretty much everything gets covered in sticky sweet grape juice. 
Got the grapes late. Finished late. Did a half assed cleanup planning to do it proper after work Monday. I anticipated some but it’s like a damn horror movie. 
I got a sheet over the big brute with bungees. A fan on high blowin over it. And water bottle traps set around the room (and house). 
At least today I can mentally prepare before walking through the door.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well I asked for it in how I set up my wineroom. Sorting-crush-ferment-press-clean-age - all relegated to the basement.
> And, as we all know, crushing is quite messy. Pretty much everything gets covered in sticky sweet grape juice.
> Got the grapes late. Finished late. Did a half assed cleanup planning to do it proper after work Monday. I anticipated some but it’s like a damn horror movie.
> I got a sheet over the big brute with bungees. A fan on high blowin over it. And water bottle traps set around the room (and house).
> At least today I can mentally prepare before walking through the door. View attachment 51045



It is a messy process, not too bad with the manual crusher though. 

You'll keep the fruit flies away with that setup. I have lots of spiders in my wine dungeon that take care of them.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Sarcasm all the way.  Dang Fred, will you stop out doing me in the number and variety of batches, my basement is only so big.



Out doing you, you got to be kidding. I'm just trying to keep up.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> It is a messy process, not too bad with the manual crusher though.
> 
> You'll keep the fruit flies away with that setup. I have lots of spiders in my wine dungeon that take care of them.



Paul, not even a little. Even with the fan some are still chilling on the sheet. It’s bad. 

Good point about manual crusher. Probably would be much cleaner. Too bad I won’t find out unless the c/d craps out on me! 
The one in the pic is just a backup right now. But kinda necessary. Since the c/d is older than dirt, and sometimes needs a lovetap with a wrench to get goin. 
Probably gonna crush outside in a couple weeks.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well I asked for it in how I set up my wineroom. Sorting-crush-ferment-press-clean-age - all relegated to the basement.
> And, as we all know, crushing is quite messy. Pretty much everything gets covered in sticky sweet grape juice.
> Got the grapes late. Finished late. Did a half assed cleanup planning to do it proper after work Monday. I anticipated some but it’s like a damn horror movie.
> I got a sheet over the big brute with bungees. A fan on high blowin over it. And water bottle traps set around the room (and house).
> At least today I can mentally prepare before walking through the door. View attachment 51045



I should consider myself lucky to be able to take everything outside to crush, press, clean and rack if I had to. Still get fruit flies though just nowhere near that extent.


----------



## Ajmassa

The struggle is real.


----------



## pgentile

That's a lot of fruit flies. It must be the Drego Red.


----------



## stickman

You're going old school, so put some old school fly paper on that sheet.


----------



## Ajmassa

Is there any specific reason why bleach is never used on equipment ? 
I put my cleaned c/d outside and was covered in em still. Possibly leading more into the house. Bleached the whole damn thing. Shoot 1st. Ask questions later.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Is there any specific reason why bleach is never used on equipment ?
> I put my cleaned c/d outside and was covered in em still. Possibly leading more into the house. Bleached the whole damn thing. Shoot 1st. Ask questions later.



What's done is done. I say spritz with kmeta sanitizing solution and then rinse. kmeta neutralizes chlorine.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Is there any specific reason why bleach is never used on equipment ?
> I put my cleaned c/d outside and was covered in em still. Possibly leading more into the house. Bleached the whole damn thing. Shoot 1st. Ask questions later.



Not entirely sure if you are serious or not. The reason we all avoid bleach is because of the danger of "cork taint." This is caused by a particular compound 2,4,6-trichloroanisole (better known as TCA). TCA is extremely detectable, down to ppt (parts per trillion) levels, and makes your wine smell like wet cardboard.

The chlorine in TCA comes from chlorophenols, which arise principally from use of bleach. That's why we avoid bleach like crazy!


----------



## ibglowin

Apple cider vinegar, water and a few drops of dish soap in a glass is your friend.



Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 51050
> 
> The struggle is real.


----------



## ibglowin

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FS/FS-50-W.pdf



Ajmassa5983 said:


> Is there any specific reason why bleach is never used on equipment ?
> I put my cleaned c/d outside and was covered in em still. Possibly leading more into the house. Bleached the whole damn thing. Shoot 1st. Ask questions later.


----------



## Ajmassa

ibglowin said:


> Apple cider vinegar, water and a few drops of dish soap in a glass is your friend.



Yep. Thanks. I’m familiar with the concoction. And I substitute water for red wine. 
Red Wine, Apple cider vinegar, and dash of dish soap to coat their wings. In a water bottle cut in half with the top flipped like a funnel. (Not sure if that makes a difference)
Eventually I just removed the tops to allow for maximum amount of flies. Had 3 in the room already. And more throughout the house. Few dozen flies in each.


----------



## stickman

The part about water quality bothers me. I don't have any proof, but I've always assumed that I have TCA in my basement general wine making area. I don't use any products with bleach or chlorine, and I always do a final rinse of equipment and tanks with chlorine free RO water, but I'm on a municipal well that's treated, so with all of the water that is used to clean the floor, spilled, open floor drain, etc. how could there not be some TCA floating around. The only positive thing is that nobody has complained of cork taint yet, maybe over time it's become part of the "house style".


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 51050
> 
> The struggle is real.


----------



## Ajmassa

The bleach thing was out of frustration after a 2nd long night of this. 
2 pieces of equipment which were thoroughly cleaned and sanitized and out back were still attracting an ungodly amount of flies. Too close enough to the house for comfort. 
I needed to nip it in the budd. So I said screw it- and spritzed the c/d and a 20gal brute with bleach. 
I figured if there’s any negative repercussions I got about 2 weeks to clean it until I’ll be crushing again. 
So after a 2nd night of scrubbing EVERYTHING Walter White style, equipment-floors-walls-even inside the damn shop vacs, I’m happy to report no flies were chilling out on top of the sheet this morning. Running fan, spotless room and multiple traps. 
And I nice fat cap of grapeskins to boot!


----------



## jgmann67

Question for all you co-inoculation gurus: Other than WHEN the slurry of MLB and Acti-ML is introduced to the wine, is there anything else that is different? 

I'm trying to mentally prep for my winemaking this year (only 10 days left to cogitate on it). So, I'm going to run through my supplies one more time and the thought struck me that the nutrient demands might be different with a co-inoculation than with a AF followed by a MLF?


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Question for all you co-inoculation gurus: Other than WHEN the slurry of MLB and Acti-ML is introduced to the wine, is there anything else that is different?
> 
> I'm trying to mentally prep for my winemaking this year (only 10 days left to cogitate on it). So, I'm going to run through my supplies one more time and the thought struck me that the nutrient demands might be different with a co-inoculation than with a AF followed by a MLF?



From all the reading I’ve done on the subject there doesn’t seem to be any suggested nutrient difference at all. (Majority of the studies didn’t use em)
Just when co-innoc’ing it’s important to also properly feed the yeast too. Otherwise you could potentially be robbing Peter to pay Paul. You’ve also got some goodies within the lees too. So if anything I’d think rehydrating with ACTI and dosing with opti might be more beneficial in a sequential innoc- since no lees and higher abv. Id just use a heavy hand in the opti and utilize all the known variables to help it along.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> Question for all you co-inoculation gurus: Other than WHEN the slurry of MLB and Acti-ML is introduced to the wine, is there anything else that is different?
> 
> I'm trying to mentally prep for my winemaking this year (only 10 days left to cogitate on it). So, I'm going to run through my supplies one more time and the thought struck me that the nutrient demands might be different with a co-inoculation than with a AF followed by a MLF?



From all the reading I’ve done on the subject there doesn’t seem to be any suggested nutrient difference at all. (Majority of the studies didn’t use em)
Just when co-innoc’ing it’s important to also properly feed the yeast too. Otherwise you could potentially be robbing Peter to pay Paul. You’ve also got some goodies within the lees too. So if anything I’d think rehydrating with ACTI and dosing with opti might be more beneficial in a sequential innoc- since no lees and higher abv. Id just use a heavy hand in the opti and utilize all the known variables to help it along.


----------



## jgmann67

I checked my supplies again. Should have looked closer, I 'm short Opti-Malo and Fermaid-O.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Question for all you co-inoculation gurus: Other than WHEN the slurry of MLB and Acti-ML is introduced to the wine, is there anything else that is different?
> 
> I'm trying to mentally prep for my winemaking this year (only 10 days left to cogitate on it). So, I'm going to run through my supplies one more time and the thought struck me that the nutrient demands might be different with a co-inoculation than with a AF followed by a MLF?



I don’t do anything differently Jim, it’s just a matter of when it gets added to the wine. Do pay more attention to nutrient needs of both your yeast and mlb, since they’re in there together. I follow the normal yeast nutrient schedule by adding half at end of lag phase, half around 1/3 sugar depletion. For mlb nutrients, I add 2/3 immediately after inoculating the must, and the last 1/3 after pressing the grapes.


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> I don’t do anything differently Jim, it’s just a matter of when it gets added to the wine. Do pay more attention to nutrient needs of both your yeast and mlb, since they’re in there together. I follow the normal yeast nutrient schedule by adding half at end of lag phase, half around 1/3 sugar depletion. For mlb nutrients, I add 2/3 immediately after inoculating the must, and the last 1/3 after pressing the grapes.



For yeast, the MoreWine guides I follow are: Fermaid-O when the cap is formed, then Fermaid-K at 1/3 the way thru. 

For ML, Acti-ML followed by Opti-Malo after about 15 min. 

Am I doing it right?


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> For yeast, the MoreWine guides I follow are: Fermaid-O when the cap is formed, then Fermaid-K at 1/3 the way thru.
> 
> For ML, Acti-ML followed by Opti-Malo after about 15 min.
> 
> Am I doing it right?



For MLB, you’re right on, one pack MLB (VP-41 or other), one 50g pack ACTI-ML, mixed together in 250 ml chlorine free water (super important!!!!!!, use distilled to be certain) dose first shot of Opti-Malo after inoculation, second dose after press. 

Yeast nutrient preferences are a bit more flexible, but I’d use the Fermaid K first, followed by the Fermaid O at 1/3 depletion. I still use DAP in my first nutrient application, as it hits the yeast hard and fast, helps me get ferm temps up into the 80’s. Just use the old sniffer to make sure it’s H2S free.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Question for all you co-inoculation gurus: Other than WHEN the slurry of MLB and Acti-ML is introduced to the wine, is there anything else that is different?
> 
> I'm trying to mentally prep for my winemaking this year (only 10 days left to cogitate on it). So, I'm going to run through my supplies one more time and the thought struck me that the nutrient demands might be different with a co-inoculation than with a AF followed by a MLF?



I've only done it once; but when I did, the only difference was the timing.


----------



## mainshipfred

There is another winery auction this Saturday. This time one of the lots is 90 cases of bottles. It is only 1.5 hrs away so picking up is no issue. What would you think would be the right price per case? The cheapest I can find is $10.50. I was thinking $7.00. They also have a lot labeled lab equipment. The picture sucks and there is no other description and I don't know if it's one lot or they will be sold individually. I emailed them but the description of the bottles was "push up" so I'm not sure how much they know about what they are selling.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> There is another winery auction this Saturday. This time one of the lots is 90 cases of bottles. It is only 1.5 hrs away so picking up is no issue. What would you think would be the right price per case? The cheapest I can find is $10.50. I was thinking $7.00. They also have a lot labeled lab equipment. The picture sucks and there is no other description and I don't know if it's one lot or they will be sold individually. I emailed them but the description of the bottles was "push up" so I'm not sure how much they know about what they are selling.



Wondering if 'push up' = 'punt'


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Wondering if 'push up' = 'punt'



My thought exactly, what else could it be? They also didn't say if they were clear or dark.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> My thought exactly, what else could it be? They also didn't say if they were clear or dark.



That would help. Also of interest would be if they are the 'green' bottles, or the 'brown'.


----------



## Ajmassa

Often these online auctions set a specific date and time to view the items in person beforehand


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Often these online auctions set a specific date and time to view the items in person beforehand



Unlike the last one this is onsite bidding only. Still don't want to make a 1.5 hr trip if there is nothing I want.


Boatboy24 said:


> That would help. Also of interest would be if they are the 'green' bottles, or the 'brown'.



They are antique green which is somewhat brown. I think I'm going to go. 3 hours plus the auction time waisted if I don't get them. The lab equipment is glassware might try for that as well it bids before the bottles.


----------



## mainshipfred

Below is a line from a Washington Winemakers email. There are 55 people on the list picking up grapes and juice. Pretty good sized group I would say.

"Our order this year consists of 57 boxes of white grapes and 750 boxes of red grapes. There are also 109 pails of juice."


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Below is a line from a Washington Winemakers email. There are 55 people on the list picking up grapes and juice. Pretty good sized group I would say.
> 
> "Our order this year consists of 57 boxes of white grapes and 750 boxes of red grapes. There are also 109 pails of juice."



When is your pick up day?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> When is your pick up day?



Next Saturday the 29th.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Below is a line from a Washington Winemakers email. There are 55 people on the list picking up grapes and juice. Pretty good sized group I would say.
> 
> "Our order this year consists of 57 boxes of white grapes and 750 boxes of red grapes. There are also 109 pails of juice."



I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm looking forward to it.



So am I, just wish I didn't have an end of the season marina party (or for me an end of boating party) and a birthday party at a brewery the same day. Crush will have to wait until Sunday.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Fall update: Crushed last saturday, pitched on sunday, solid ferments all week and today the caps are starting to fall. RC212 gave zero off odors this time around. Will do hydrometer readings in the am. Thinking about not pressing these batches yet, but siphoning off the free run and then put juice buckets on the unpressed grapes. When the juice buckets are finished fermenting siphon off the free run and then press the grapes.
> 
> brunello/sangio skins - two buckets alicante
> 
> petite sirah skins - two buckets of nebiollo
> 
> Will probably change my mind 12 times by tomorrow.



I think I'll copy your idea. If I have skins from the following grapes what juice(s) would you recommend? Probably just want one more batch. My initial thought was a Merlot or Barbera.
4 ea Premium Syrah and OVZ
4 Tempranillo
3 Petite Sirah
3 Tourigo
3 Sauv Blanc


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I think I'll copy your idea. If I have skins from the following grapes what juice(s) would you recommend? Probably just want one more batch. My initial thought was a Merlot or Barbera.
> 4 ea Premium Syrah and OVZ
> 4 Tempranillo
> 3 Petite Sirah
> 3 Tourigo
> 3 Sauv Blanc



Very nice line-up.

You'd be fine with either merlot or barbera, both are blended regularly with most of those grapes. I had barbera buckets last year that came out pretty good.


----------



## Ajmassa

I’d think you could add those skins to just about any juice bucket and it would work. Except the Sauv Blanc skins. And Tourigo- whatever the hell that is!
I view adding active skins to a juice pail in a general kinda way- not so much varietal specific. Getting the active yeast and active mlb- huge plus’s. And helping with the body/mouthfeel/color from the fermented skins — similar to what’s said about oaking the primary. Aiding and improving the juice’s existing characteristic, not so much adding new ones. 
At least once they’re fermented and pressed. Skipping pressing may add a touch from the initial grapes. And so would tossing in a few lbs of fresh grapes too. Thoughts? The skins ive used have always been similar to the juice— tough to tell
*one of these days I want to do a whole bunch of different experiments with control batches. Sometimes Only way to know things for sure.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> So am I, just wish I didn't have an end of the season marina party (or for me an end of boating party) and a birthday party at a brewery the same day. Crush will have to wait until Sunday.



I have a half marathon on Sunday, so the crush party at Chez Boatboy will be somewhat subdued.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> I have a half marathon on Sunday, so the crush party at Chez Boatboy will be somewhat subdued.


Just please use some of your remaining energy for pictures. I'm living through all of your ferments since I didn't/couldn't afford to order anything this Fall. I'm very sad because I don't have a good reason now not to bottle a bunch of wines.


----------



## porkchopmessiah

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Some days just get the better of ya. Today was/is one of those days. The reason—- fruit flies. They have taken over the basement- 1st floor- garage - everywhere! I kill 30. 30 more pop up. I think I cleared the room. The next room is loaded. 100’s of them.
> Traps with wine/apple cider vinegar/fans/ zappers/shop vac/scrubbing down EVERYTHING- I doesnt matter.
> Not even touching the wine tonight. Lid off for few seconds is like an open invitation.
> Tomorrow’s a new day
> 
> I give up. All I’ve done was waste time fighting em


I deal with them a lot for my job, (fix commercial dishwashers in NYC), they lay their eggs in wet places like sink drains. We sell a product called fruit fly bar pro...you can get them online, just hang them around damp areas, my customers use them in bars and they seem satisfied...


----------



## Ajmassa

porkchopmessiah said:


> I deal with them a lot for my job, (fix commercial dishwashers in NYC), they lay their eggs in wet places like sink drains. We sell a product called fruit fly bar pro...you can get them online, just hang them around damp areas, my customers use them in bars and they seem satisfied...



My man! After having one brutal week I started researching the hell of it myself. The reviews for this thing were great. Most people were complaining the packaging warns to not use in occupied buildings. But they all said it worked. And amazon wouldn’t send to NJ or PA—- so to me that means it’s some good stuff! Found em at Depot. 
Collected a few hundred on baited fly paper- built myself an air sealed plastic chamber, and just hung the barpro 20 min ago. 
I’d lost control. Desperate times call for desperate measures.


----------



## stickman

Yea, I would have been served divorce papers by now if I had this going on. I like the plastic tent, though you do have to be careful of CO2 accumulation and properly ventilate before entering.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> My man! After having one brutal week I started researching the hell of it myself. The reviews for this thing were great. Most people were complaining the packaging warns to not use in occupied buildings. But they all said it worked. And amazon wouldn’t send to NJ or PA—- so to me that means it’s some good stuff! Found em at Depot.
> Collected a few hundred on baited fly paper- built myself an air sealed plastic chamber, and just hung the barpro 20 min ago.
> I’d lost control. Desperate times call for desperate measures. View attachment 51083
> View attachment 51084
> View attachment 51085



That batch will have to be called "Boy in the Bubble" wine.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> That batch will have to be called "Boy in the Bubble" wine.



The girls were calling me Dexter in his plastic kill room.


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> Yea, I would have been served divorce papers by now if I had this going on. I like the plastic tent, though you do have to be careful of CO2 accumulation and properly ventilate before entering.



It’s getting pretty routine now: butting heads when grapes are in season. 
The flies certainly don’t help. Or the money spent. But mostly it’s the time spent. Especially during home renovation- 90% of which I’m doing myself and working 40hrs a week. . — usually I can balance it out. Tho the wine gods thru me yet another curveball with the flies this time. 
Btw- I made sure to build the plastic barrier to have a window inside.


----------



## ceeaton

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Tho the wine gods thru me yet another curveball with the flies this time.


When I got local grapes three years ago (chardonel and dornfelder) the wine rooms of the guy I bought them from were just loaded with flies. There were dead ones throughout the must before I pitched the yeast. He had added 50 ppm kmeta (though I didn't ask him to), but other than that, I just put the top on the brute (which has ventilation slits under the handles). I eventually had fruit files all over the house. The story has ended in those being some really good wines IMHO, so I wouldn't worry too much about the flies, unless you leave a lot of fruit out on the counter up in the kitchen. The Kmeta you add after fermentation and/or MLB will keep you from making some really expensive wine vinegar.


----------



## heatherd

I typically throw in the MLB in with the yeast, sprinkling both on the top.


----------



## jgmann67

heatherd said:


> I typically throw in the MLB in with the yeast, sprinkling both on the top.



Okay so, this is something I’ve wondered for a while - whether just sprinkling it like I typically do with yeast wouldn’t work. Have you ever had difficulty with your MLF?


----------



## Boatboy24

The instructions on the package say you can sprinkle.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> The instructions on the package say you can sprinkle.



Then why do anything else??


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Then why do anything else??



Yeast instructions will sometimes say the same thing. "Anything else" is just insurance, I guess.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Okay so, this is something I’ve wondered for a while - whether just sprinkling it like I typically do with yeast wouldn’t work. Have you ever had difficulty with your MLF?



Jim, with all due respect I think you are gun shy and with good reason due to your 17's. Just a hunch, and I have never been able get a conclusive answer, but with my limited experience I believe it was the total SO2 that may have caused your problems with the MLF. Although it's been proven effective by many others I'm still going old school and doing MLF after AF. Not sure which way your'e going but what I find consistent is the need for proper nutrients with co inoculation.


----------



## mainshipfred

I pressed my OVZ and Syrah yesterday and usually wait 2-3 days after press to rack. There is plenty of sediment on the bottom already so I think I'm going to rack today. My thought is leave some sediment behind for MLF nutrients.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I pressed my OVZ and Syrah yesterday and usually wait 2-3 days after press to rack. There is plenty of sediment on the bottom already so I think I'm going to rack today. My thought is leave some sediment behind for MLF nutrients.



I pressed the buckets on skins yesterday too. Might rack of gross lees as well today, but could be tomorrow. 

But I will be filling the barrel today!


----------



## pgentile

Not a surprise and probably already know by some, but just found this on the Regina/Pia lugs. They don't have pads or liners, so I guess they are sprayed?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I pressed the buckets on skins yesterday too. Might rack of gross lees as well today, but could be tomorrow.
> 
> But I will be filling the barrel today!



Put my SA Cab in the 30 liter and Chilean Malbec in the 25 on 8-24. Both are getting some nice oak. Not overly concerned about the Cab since I still have another 5 gallons but the Malbec I'm going to monitor more closely. Could always add some of the Cab if I over do it.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Not a surprise and probably already know by some, but just found this on the Regina/Pia lugs. They don't have pads or liners, so I guess they are sprayed?
> 
> View attachment 51111



I saw it but just been to lazy to take a reading. Figured it is what it is. Sometime this week I'm going to test the barreled wines as well as the OVZ and Syrah.


----------



## Boatboy24

I'm getting fired up. 6 days left!

Jim and Fred: not sure what the schedule will be that day, but hope we can meet up. I will likely have Dad with me. Will bring some bottles for trading.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm getting fired up. 6 days left!
> 
> Jim and Fred: not sure what the schedule will be that day, but hope we can meet up. I will likely have Dad with me. Will bring some bottles for trading.



It will be get it and go for me. 2 otger events that day. Don't you think it's a shame though driving 30 plus miles to trade wine when we live 2 miles from eachother. LOL!


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm getting fired up. 6 days left!
> 
> Jim and Fred: not sure what the schedule will be that day, but hope we can meet up. I will likely have Dad with me. Will bring some bottles for trading.



I will bring some of my EMs. Not a lot in my cellar in the “ready to drink” category. So, the ones I’ll have will need another 6-12 months of aging before they’re ready. 

The RJS RQ French Cab and Merlot are pretty damned good now. They’ll be stellar in another year.


----------



## porkchopmessiah

hey, im doing my wines from 4 aces and musto bello buckets, without skins expect less tannin...are there any base guidelines for adding before I go by taste, I really have no idea what a lot or a little is to add


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> It will be get it and go for me. 2 otger events that day. Don't you think it's a shame though driving 30 plus miles to trade wine when we live 2 miles from eachother. LOL!



Well, yes. But you and I have plenty of opportunities. I haven't seen Jim in probably 2+ years.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, yes. But you and I have plenty of opportunities. I haven't seen Jim in probably 2+ years.



September 2016 at Harford. I'm going to try to talk Craig (@ceeaton) in to going along for the ride.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> September 2016 at Harford. I'm going to try to talk Craig (@ceeaton) in to going along for the ride.



@ceeaton you're going with Jim. No ifs, ands or buts. It will be the Harrisburg-Chantilly Meet Up.


----------



## Matty_Kay

Saturday I picked up 2 lugs of Merlot and 1 Cab along with 3 lugs of Zinderella OVZ and 1 lug of Carnellian. Crushed/destemmed the Merlot and Cab for a field blend and Zin on its own. I split the Carnellian lug into the Merlot and Zin musts. I used MT yeast on the Merlot and D21 on the Zin. Tested and added enzymes. Sunday I retested and added FT rouge to both musts. The Zin had a very high starting SG of 1.110 which is going to push the D21 to its limits to finish dry, hopefully no issues as fermentation progresses. This morning, caps forming on both, things are rolling along quite nicely. Love this time of year!


----------



## Boatboy24

Just got the pickup schedule for Washington Winemakers.

@mainshipfred : looks like you and I both have the 10-11 spot
@jgmann67 : You're a little earlier. You plan on hanging around?


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Just got the pickup schedule for Washington Winemakers.
> 
> @mainshipfred : looks like you and I both have the 10-11 spot
> @jgmann67 : You're a little earlier. You plan on hanging around?



Jim is getting his crushed so it might be a little. I'm probably going to get there around 8-8:30 andhelp out if they need it.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Jim is getting his crushed so it might be a little. I'm probably going to get there around 8-8:30 andhelp out if they need it.



Yep. They’re crushing mine, and I’m hoping to arrive around 9:00, crush and hang out a bit. Not too long, though. Want to keep my grapes and juice cold and get home (2 hour drive).


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Yep. They’re crushing mine, and I’m hoping to arrive around 9:00, crush and hang out a bit. Not too long, though. Want to keep my grapes and juice cold and get home (2 hour drive).



Will @ceeaton be your co-pilot?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Will @ceeaton be your co-pilot?



So far, no. Still working on him. But, he may have some domestic issues to attend to.


----------



## jgmann67

Still gotta order some supplies and clean up my primary for the weekend.


----------



## heatherd

jgmann67 said:


> Okay so, this is something I’ve wondered for a while - whether just sprinkling it like I typically do with yeast wouldn’t work. Have you ever had difficulty with your MLF?


I have not had issues since I've been co-inoculating via sprinkle.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> So far, no. Still working on him. But, he may have some domestic issues to attend to.


I think the domestic issues are cleared (washer and dryer installed, wifey not working).

My main issue is being in a car for four hours, not sure my back/leg are up to it. I developed a sciatic nerve issue along with an arthritic hip this past spring (it sucks getting older) and have found that much more than an hour drive necessitates a stop and five minute walk/stretch. I've got to find a way to do a three hour trip up to our cabin to close it in a couple of weeks, so this may be a good test (at your expense if I'm howling in pain the whole way).

What time do I have to be at your place to depart, 6:45-7am?


----------



## Boatboy24

@jgmann67 : I assume you have reclining, heated seats for Craig.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> @jgmann67 : I assume you have reclining, heated seats for Craig.


I'm thinking more about a couple of aspirin and a flask of some strong beverage. He'll have to stop or I'll wee wee in his car seat (I know, TMI).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I think the domestic issues are cleared (washer and dryer installed, wifey not working).
> 
> My main issue is being in a car for four hours, not sure my back/leg are up to it. I developed a sciatic nerve issue along with an arthritic hip this past spring (it sucks getting older) and have found that much more than an hour drive necessitates a stop and five minute walk/stretch. I've got to find a way to do a three hour trip up to our cabin to close it in a couple of weeks, so this may be a good test (at your expense if I'm howling in pain the whole way).
> 
> What time do I have to be at your place to depart, 6:45-7am?



Yes, departure at 0700 hours. Heated seats? Check. Sucks getting older? Check. Bullet to bite to handle the pain? Check.


----------



## Matty_Kay

Pressing both the Merlot/Cab blend and Zin tonight. SG for both sitting right around 1.000. Was concerned the D21 might struggle to finish dry on the Zin but all signs trending towards no issues.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Yes, departure at 0700 hours. Heated seats? Check. Sucks getting older? Check. Bullet to bite to handle the pain? Check.


I'll aim for 0645 hours so I can walk around and get rid of some of my coffee. I'll text you if things change on my end. Should I bring a Zin/PS for BB and Mainship to put into storage, since we see BB about every second year?


----------



## jgmann67

Matty_Kay said:


> Pressing both the Merlot/Cab blend and Zin tonight. SG for both sitting right around 1.000. Was concerned the D21 might struggle to finish dry on the Zin but all signs trending towards no issues.



How's the color? Body? Flavor? How long have your grapes been in the primary?


----------



## Matty_Kay

jgmann67 said:


> How's the color? Body? Flavor? How long have your grapes been in the primary?



Color on the Zin is very deep purple while the Merlot is a very dark red. One noticeable difference is the Zin must was “sloppier” than the Merlot if that makes sense. Flavor on the Merlot is very nice fruit forward and the Zin fruity as well with more of a cherry flavor at the moment. Very happy thus far as each showing signs of 2 different and distinct wines.


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> I think the domestic issues are cleared (washer and dryer installed, wifey not working).
> 
> My main issue is being in a car for four hours, not sure my back/leg are up to it. I developed a sciatic nerve issue along with an arthritic hip this past spring (it sucks getting older) and have found that much more than an hour drive necessitates a stop and five minute walk/stretch. I've got to find a way to do a three hour trip up to our cabin to close it in a couple of weeks, so this may be a good test (at your expense if I'm howling in pain the whole way).
> 
> What time do I have to be at your place to depart, 6:45-7am?



Will be great to see both of you again. Craig, did you have a chance to give Jim the bottle of Norton from Split Rocks? I'm in the process of fixing the latest Norton so I won't have a bottle to share. The Split Rocks one did not have the flaw.


----------



## heatherd

Have fun gents, interested to hear what you get and how the grapes look. This could be a good source since they crush....


----------



## mainshipfred

heatherd said:


> Have fun gents, interested to hear what you get and how the grapes look. This could be a good source since they crush....



Kind of surprised you didn't place an order. You're closer then anyone. You must be satisfied with your multi continent blend.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Craig, did you have a chance to give Jim the bottle of Norton from Split Rocks?


Oh, was that what I was supposed to do with that? Must have slipped my mind, or never registered and stayed there. I'm sure drinking a bit on that Saturday had absolutely nothing to do with it. At least that's the story I'm sticking with. I'll ask my wife if she remembers anything about that night. 

Edit: Found the bottles, one on the way to @jgmann67.


----------



## mainshipfred

I'll ask my wife if she remembers anything about that night. [/QUOTE]

Don't we all already know that answer?


----------



## jgmann67

Matty_Kay said:


> Color on the Zin is very deep purple while the Merlot is a very dark red. One noticeable difference is the Zin must was “sloppier” than the Merlot if that makes sense. Flavor on the Merlot is very nice fruit forward and the Zin fruity as well with more of a cherry flavor at the moment. Very happy thus far as each showing signs of 2 different and distinct wines.



If you're satisfied, then, go for it. 

This year, I'm going to do what I can to maximize extraction from the skins with a slow-burn fermentation (chose AMH for primary fermentation and will try to get two weeks on the skins).


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> If you're satisfied, then, go for it.
> 
> This year, I'm going to do what I can to maximize extraction from the skins with a slow-burn fermentation (chose AMH for primary fermentation and will try to get two weeks on the skins).



Jim, I just used AMH for the first time. The instructions said to hydrate it in 10% of the must before final innoculation. What I did was rehydrate with Go Ferm and just poured it on the must without stirring it in. Seemed to work fine and didn't have a long lag phase as published.


----------



## Matty_Kay

jgmann67 said:


> If you're satisfied, then, go for it.
> 
> This year, I'm going to do what I can to maximize extraction from the skins with a slow-burn fermentation (chose AMH for primary fermentation and will try to get two weeks on the skins).



So far I am quite happy with the results this early in the process. Looking forward to pressing this evening. 

Your slow burn ferment sounds very cool, keep us posted!


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> If you're satisfied, then, go for it.
> 
> This year, I'm going to do what I can to maximize extraction from the skins with a slow-burn fermentation (chose AMH for primary fermentation and will try to get two weeks on the skins).



Nice. So the ultimate goal is a 2 week ferment. Very optimistic. I like that your up for the challenge. I’m not sure what system you’ve got going on with temp control but I know you’ve got some tricks up your sleeve ready. 

Vegas has the O/U at 9.5 days to reach 1.000. 

No 1/2 day selection increments so we don’t push. Venmo or PayPal will work. Juice is 10%


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Don't we all already know that answer?


Being the optimist that I am, I'll optimistically say she doesn't remember anything after about 7 pm.


----------



## whackfol

I scanned this thread and a Washington Winemaker group is referenced a number of times. Would someone share a contact with me. I foster a similar group in NC and wold love to discuss ways we could help each other. We purchase about 450 lugs plus some white juice and only receive one truck. My hope is partner with another group in the region and get two trucks. This would give us access to some of the earlier ripening grapes.

I think there is a nonpublic way to respond to me. If not, I can provide an email address.


----------



## Steve_M

Coinoclated MLF 2 weeks for MLF. Refresh my memory, how is this doing so far?

Thanks,
Steve


----------



## mainshipfred

whackfol said:


> I scanned this thread and a Washington Winemaker group is referenced a number of times. Would someone share a contact with me. I foster a similar group in NC and wold love to discuss ways we could help each other. We purchase about 450 lugs plus some white juice and only receive one truck. My hope is partner with another group in the region and get two trucks. This would give us access to some of the earlier ripening grapes.
> 
> I think there is a nonpublic way to respond to me. If not, I can provide an email address.



Below is the WW order for this fall. The group tried to get an early harvest shipment but there was not enough interest to make shipping worth it. The only problem I see with partnering is the distance folks would have to drive for the pick up. There are some in our group already traveling from PA

"Our order this year consists of 57 boxes of white grapes and 750 boxes of red grapes. There are also 109 pails of juice."


----------



## Ajmassa

Steve_M said:


> Coinoclated MLF 2 weeks for MLF. Refresh my memory, how is this doing so far?
> 
> Thanks,
> Steve



Doing damn good- that’s how it’s doing!

At your sample the dots along the way up the paper represent the amount of each acid. 1st one is tartaric. That one stays constant. Middle is malic and top is lactic. 
The 3 acid samples on the left represent where they will be in line with for your sample. 
If no MLf was done your middle malic Acid spot would be brighter. And the top lactic lighter. 
Faded malic and bright lactic means you are successfully converting your malic to lactic. 
2 weeks with a coinnoc. and your progressing well.

*would be much easier to read in better lighting. Hold it up to a lightbulb to see better. Sunlight can also damage the paper.


----------



## Ajmassa

@Steve_M if that was mine I’d give it another couple weeks and then stabilize. Those tests are 100% conclusive. 
With a little help from Steve Jobs I can get a clearer look at the test- and the MLF looks great.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ready to rock and roll tomorrow!


Oh, I picked up my race packet for Sunday’s half marathon earlier. Great swag!


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Ready to rock and roll tomorrow!View attachment 51218


When are you going to finish up that basement? It's not like you had to replace your sewer line or something this year! 

Actually, wish I could see more of the floor in my basement. Clearing a "path" for the new appliances was quite the chore.


----------



## jgmann67

It’s 5:00 a.m. EST. I’m up with the dog (who starts barking the second she hears someone walk to the bathroom - it’s kind of a hostage situation when you think about it). And, staring at my phone. 

My big fermenter is clean and ready. 

The opti-Malo and fermaid-O didn’t show up in the mail yet. Not sure why a package has to go from Pittsburgh to Philly only to turn around and come back West 120 miles... and USPS wonders why people hate them. Hoping for a delivery today or Monday. 

Need to pack wine for swapping. 

Saw that WW has extra grapes and juice. 

Grape/Juice Variety Color Qty Price 

Grape Cabernet Sauvignon Red 3 $46.50 

Grape Malbec Red 2 $46.50 

Grape Merlot Red 2 $37.50 

Grape OV Zinfandel Red 5 $41.50 

Grape Sangiovese Red 3 $39.50 

Grape Chardonnay White 2 $39.50 

Grape Muscato White 1 $35.50 

Juice Alicante Red 1 $55.00 

Juice Merlot Red 1 $58.00 

Juice Muscato White 7 $56.00

If interested, you’ll have to wait around until everyone gets their orders (noonish). I wouldn’t mind doing a Merlot this year. But, my wallet says no.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> It’s 5:00 a.m. EST. I’m up with the dog (who starts barking the second she hears someone walk to the bathroom - it’s kind of a hostage situation when you think about it). And, staring at my phone.
> 
> My big fermenter is clean and ready.
> 
> The opti-Malo and fermaid-O didn’t show up in the mail yet. Not sure why a package has to go from Pittsburgh to Philly only to turn around and come back West 120 miles... and USPS wonders why people hate them. Hoping for a delivery today or Monday.
> 
> Need to pack wine for swapping.
> 
> Saw that WW has extra grapes and juice.
> 
> Grape/Juice Variety Color Qty Price
> 
> Grape Cabernet Sauvignon Red 3 $46.50
> 
> Grape Malbec Red 2 $46.50
> 
> Grape Merlot Red 2 $37.50
> 
> Grape OV Zinfandel Red 5 $41.50
> 
> Grape Sangiovese Red 3 $39.50
> 
> Grape Chardonnay White 2 $39.50
> 
> Grape Muscato White 1 $35.50
> 
> Juice Alicante Red 1 $55.00
> 
> Juice Merlot Red 1 $58.00
> 
> Juice Muscato White 7 $56.00
> 
> If interested, you’ll have to wait around until everyone gets their orders (noonish). I wouldn’t mind doing a Merlot this year. But, my wallet says no.



Do you want me to bring anything. Have lots of extra additives.


----------



## Boatboy24

I've got 6 bottles for swapping. Off to the store now to get some grub for post-crush. Dad should be here in an hour and we'll set up, then head over.


----------



## Steve_M

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @Steve_M if that was mine I’d give it another couple weeks and then stabilize. Those tests are 100% conclusive.
> With a little help from Steve Jobs I can get a clearer look at the test- and the MLF looks great. View attachment 51217



I like the photo editing!
Steve


----------



## M38A1

I’ve noticed a lot of people from New Jersey post in this thread. I’ll be in Cape May another few days and would love to meet any other members close by if possible. Let me know, I’d love to see how other people make wine, meet some folks and chat.


----------



## whackfol

mainshipfred said:


> Below is the WW order for this fall. The group tried to get an early harvest shipment but there was not enough interest to make shipping worth it. The only problem I see with partnering is the distance folks would have to drive for the pick up. There are some in our group already traveling from PA
> 
> "Our order this year consists of 57 boxes of white grapes and 750 boxes of red grapes. There are also 109 pails of juice."




I’d love to discuss. Is there a way to send a private message so our info is not displayed publicly on the board? I looked but did not see the function
I’m looking to share a truck (or two) that drops at two or three places in this region. When I bought in CA our grapes came directly here on a truck with other produce. The grape packer I used tried to help me get with a winery he supplies and some home wine/beer supply stores but it never worked out. I continue to have hope I can get two trucks directly here each year. It would increase access to other varieties and AVA’s, save time the grapes are in coolers and save money by cutting out one or two middle men.


----------



## M38A1

whackfol said:


> I’d love to discuss. Is there a way to send a private message so our info is not displayed publicly on the board? I looked but did not see the function
> I’m looking to share a truck (or two) that drops at two or three places in this region. When I bought in CA our grapes came directly here on a truck with other produce. The grape packer I used tried to help me get with a winery he supplies and some home wine/beer supply stores but it never worked out. I continue to have hope I can get two trucks directly here each year. It would increase access to other varieties and AVA’s, save time the grapes are in coolers and save money by cutting out one or two middle men.



Private or direct messages can be done by starting a “conversation“ with the member. If you click on their avatar picture, you should see those options.


----------



## whackfol

Thank you!


----------



## sour_grapes

M38A1 said:


> Private or direct messages can be done by starting a “conversation“ with the member. If you click on their avatar picture, you should see those options.



Or the icon of an envelope in the upper right-hand corner.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Do you want me to bring anything. Have lots of extra additives.



Fred - wish I saw this before we left. Oh well. Still crossing my fingers for delivery today.

We got back at the house around 12:30 and moved the juice and must to the basement. My numbers look very good: pH of 3.59 and an OG of 1.105 (24.5 Brix). I have no interest in adjusting them. 

The grapes are in really great shape. 

View attachment 51251


The temp of the must is about 57*. 

I’m going to wait a few hours before dropping yeast and enzymes to let that temp up. But, I didn’t dose the mist with SO2 the last two seasons... so I’m not going to this time either. 

View attachment 51252


All in all, I’m pretty happy with the WW experience - distance was tolerable, quality is good, free DIY crush and destemming. 

More pics to follow.


----------



## Boatboy24




----------



## ceeaton

Pictures from today's grape pickup. Since I had nothing better to do (didn't order anything) I took some images of Fred helping Jim subject his purchased grapes to their collective winemaking authority. A crusher/destemmer was provided free of charge, but it was a self service type of deal. Although they weren't in an image, it was good to see both senior members of the @Boatboy24 wine making team, I'm sure images of the full team will follow.

Both Jims' bought grapes that seemed in pretty darn good condition, I'm hoping to be able to get in on the action next Fall.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> View attachment 51253


I can't believe, with your short trip, that you don't have those grapes crushed yet! And where is that nice printout that @mainshipfred gave you? That was a decently long morning for buying nothing (left at 6:10am, got back at 1:15pm), I now feel the pain for the three trip Fall you had to Harford last year.


----------



## Matty_Kay

Pressed yesterday after work, both my Merlot/Cab blend and OVZ finished dry and were at .990 and .992 respectively this morning. I racked and pitched VP 41 mlb this afternoon. Ph is 3.6 for the Merlot and 3.76 for the Zin. Happy with that for sure. Finished final clean up and put the equipment away until Chileans in the spring. All in, a solid wine making week


----------



## pgentile

Did a chromotagraphy the other morning, took a photo when it wasn't completely dry. By the time I got home later that day, the sheet was solid blue. Could not read.

Will do another test this week. But from this I'm reading that the Aus cab, PS and Nebiollo still have a bit of malo to go. The Aus syrah and brunello less. The grenache none.

The Aus cab & syrah are from July and still showing MLF activity. The brunello, PS and Nebiollo are from a few weeks ago.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Did a chromotagraphy the other morning, took a photo when it wasn't completely dry. By the time I got home later that day, the sheet was solid blue. Could not read.
> 
> Will do another test this week. But from this I'm reading that the Aus cab, PS and Nebiollo still have a bit of malo to go. The Aus syrah and brunello less. The grenache none.
> 
> The Aus cab & syrah are from July and still showing MLF activity. The brunello, PS and Nebiollo are from a few weeks ago.
> 
> View attachment 51293



I like how Chroma tests give us a little indication of color too. And I’ve never seen the red bleed as thick or as high as your petite Syrah! Sucker must be like pen ink! With the nebbiolo and cab not far behind. 
Surprising about the aussies tho. Wonder why it’s dragging out so long. Are they further along since the last chroma test at least?

** actually after a second look, check out how high your malic registered. Looking down the line, even tho th bleeding red sorta in the way, there doesn’t appear to be any bright malic spots at all for any of em. Maybe slightly on the nebbiolo. But easily can see the tartaric and lactic spots. I don’t know man, I think there’s a chance they’re all finished. Did You coinnoculate all of em?

***also, have you spoken with Pintos? Donwe know if suckers are even harvested yet in Paso Robles?


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I like how Chroma tests give us a little indication of color too. And I’ve never seen the red bleed as thick or as high as your petite Syrah! Sucker must be like pen ink! With the nebbiolo and cab not far behind.
> Surprising about the aussies tho. Wonder why it’s dragging out so long. Are they further along since the last chroma test at least?
> 
> ** actually after a second look, check out how high your malic registered. Looking down the line, even tho th bleeding red sorta in the way, there doesn’t appear to be any bright malic spots at all for any of em. Maybe slightly on the nebbiolo. But easily can see the tartaric and lactic spots. I don’t know man, I think there’s a chance they’re all finished. Did You coinnoculate all of em?
> 
> ***also, have you spoken with Pintos? Donwe know if suckers are even harvested yet in Paso Robles?



Yup, they were all co-inoc with the same type of MLB. 

I'm going to do a second test tomorrow to confirm. But yah the more I look at this the more it looks like everything could be done. I'm not feeling confident since I didn't catch it at it's optimal time.

I was going to call Gino's this coming week. Also thinking of stopping at Procacci for a few more buckets. PWBwest told me they are buying what ever buckets Procacci has left over(if any) at the end of the season. I'm curious what Pinto's does with their leftover/unsold. I know Presque Isle makes their unsold buckets/grapes into wine and sells as young wine.


----------



## mainshipfred

Crush is done. Had a helper today, my youngest son. Tomorrow take measurements and innoculate. Got to decide on the yeasts tonight. Did something different today. After I pressed the Sauv Blanc I took out the skins, fluffed them up and presses again. Amazing amount of more juice was extracted. Did it again and same thing. Really didn't have to press very hard the later times. Was going to do it again but it was getting late and I wanted to start cleaning.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Crush is done. Had a helper today, my youngest son. Tomorrow take measurements and innoculate. Got to decide on the yeasts tonight. Did something different today. After I pressed the Sauv Blanc I took out the skins, fluffed them up and presses again. Amazing amount of more juice was extracted. Did it again and same thing. Really didn't have to press very hard the later times. Was going to do it again but it was getting late and I wanted to start cleaning.



Very nice. Valdepena in 42lb lugs?


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Crush is done. Had a helper today, my youngest son. Tomorrow take measurements and innoculate. Got to decide on the yeasts tonight. Did something different today. After I pressed the Sauv Blanc I took out the skins, fluffed them up and presses again. Amazing amount of more juice was extracted. Did it again and same thing. Really didn't have to press very hard the later times. Was going to do it again but it was getting late and I wanted to start cleaning.



You had two helpers, technically. I cranked that press down a few times.


----------



## Boatboy24

Got final measurements and adjustments done after a very brief visit to @mainshipfred 's crush/press operation to pick up some oak chips for fermentation. Numbers were as follows:

Cab Sauv: 24.4 Brix, 3.55 pH
Zin: 24 Brix, 3.70 pH
Syrah: 23.2 Brix, 3.86 pH
PS: 24 Brix, 3.65 pH

I tweaked the Zin and Syrah by adding a bit of tartaric. BM4X4 on the Cab, D254 on the PS and RP15 on both the Zin and Syrah.


----------



## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Got final measurements and adjustments done after a very brief visit to @mainshipfred 's crush/press operation to pick up some oak chips for fermentation. Numbers were as follows:
> 
> Cab Sauv: 24.4 Brix, 3.55 pH
> Zin: 24 Brix, 3.70 pH
> Syrah: 23.2 Brix, 3.86 pH
> PS: 24 Brix, 3.65 pH
> 
> I tweaked the Zin and Syrah by adding a bit of tartaric. BM4X4 on the Cab, D254 on the PS and RP15 on both the Zin and Syrah.


And you are co-inoculating your batches, especially the BM4x4 ones, right?


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> And you are co-inoculating your batches, especially the BM4x4 ones, right?



All of 'em. Tomorrow night, likely. VP41


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> All of 'em. Tomorrow night, likely. VP41



Here too. A cap is starting to form on my wine. Smells good. 

Hoping that my supplies show up by then.


----------



## whackfol

Rice hulls will help with yield during pressing - esp the slippery whites.


----------



## Ajmassa

Fantastic! Sounds like Fred’s new connection was a success. that’s nice they had c/d for you guys if ya wanted. Huge plus if one isn’t owned. Craig I hope next year everything works out for ya. 
Numbers seem legit all around. 

And Jim, with your numbers and adjustments you make it sound so easy! A seasoned vet no doubt. When you adjusted did you check TA, or since so minor didn’t even worry about it? TA is always a hassle for me on crush day. 

And did anyone happen to take an So2 reading at crush? Just curious.


----------



## Boatboy24

whackfol said:


> Rice hulls will help with yield during pressing - esp the slippery whites.



@mainshipfred mentioned that today as he was pressing his Sauvignon Blanc. I hadn't previously heard that.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> And Jim, with your numbers and adjustments you make it sound so easy! A seasoned vet no doubt. When you adjusted did you check TA, or since so minor didn’t even worry about it? TA is always a hassle for me on crush day.



I've been going on pH alone for the last few years.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Here too. A cap is starting to form on my wine. Smells good.
> 
> Hoping that my supplies show up by then.



I got starters going and pitched between 3 and 5 this afternoon. So no caps yet. But I just ran down and took a look and we have very clear bubbling going on at this point. I figure by tomorrow night, I'll be doing my first punchdown, adding Fermaid, Optimalo and MLB.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Very nice. Valdepena in 42lb lugs?



That was a real plus the only varietal that came in 42


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> You had two helpers, technically. I cranked that press down a few times.



Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Fantastic! Sounds like Fred’s new connection was a success. that’s nice they had c/d for you guys if ya wanted. Huge plus if one isn’t owned. Craig I hope next year everything works out for ya.
> Numbers seem legit all around.
> 
> And Jim, with your numbers and adjustments you make it sound so easy! A seasoned vet no doubt. When you adjusted did you check TA, or since so minor didn’t even worry about it? TA is always a hassle for me on crush day.
> 
> And did anyone happen to take an So2 reading at crush? Just curious.



I'm going to take the SO2 readings today.


----------



## mainshipfred

whackfol said:


> Rice hulls will help with yield during pressing - esp the slippery whites.



Yep supposedly they create channels for the wine to run through. I just didn't think ahead and didn't have any. The alternate method was pretty slick though.


----------



## whackfol

It explains why the horizontal Bladder presses have lengthy programs for pressing whites. Press, deflate, roll, press...etc. When it’s a business you can’t afford to waste.
I fluff and repress my reds. I don’t have to press as hard at one time and still get the yield.
Some wineries us their stems to facilitate pressing. Not for me because I worry about the stem tannins being astringent.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out.



Just giving you a hard time. I pretty much stood there and watched you and your son work.


----------



## Ajmassa

@pgentile. I called up Gino Pintos this morning about the Paso Robles grapes. 
They said they just got some in. Not tons. But they have Merlot, Pinot Noir, Syrah, and OV Zin. But my Cabernet is “at least 10 days away”.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @pgentile. I called up Gino Pintos this morning about the Paso Robles grapes.
> They said they just got some in. Not tons. But they have Merlot, Pinot Noir, Syrah, and OV Zin. But my Cabernet is “at least 10 days away”.



Good to hear, I'm going call in a bit. Hopefully my Old Vine Zin lot is in.

Thanks


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Good to hear, I'm going call in a bit. Hopefully my Old Vine Zin lot is in.
> 
> Thanks



Last year I did my grapes September 2nd. This year looking at oct 13th as my earliest possible pickup day. 
I’m not positive how the progression of grape acid goes, but if it’s taking this long to harvest the cabs for optimal ripeness, wouldn’t there be a nice byproduct of acid increasing too? Or does acid decrease as sugar goes up?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Last year I did my grapes September 2nd. This year looking at oct 13th as my earliest possible pickup day.
> I’m not positive how the progression of grape acid goes, but if it’s taking this long to harvest the cabs for optimal ripeness, wouldn’t there be a nice byproduct of acid increasing too? Or does acid decrease as sugar goes up?



The only gauge I have is my Touriga. 1.120 SG 4.37 ph. Don't know if it's a true representation.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Last year I did my grapes September 2nd. This year looking at oct 13th as my earliest possible pickup day.
> I’m not positive how the progression of grape acid goes, but if it’s taking this long to harvest the cabs for optimal ripeness, wouldn’t there be a nice byproduct of acid increasing too? Or does acid decrease as sugar goes up?



Acid decreases with hang time. (c.f. http://www.winecountrythisweek.com/articles/what-“hang-time” )

I found this source kinda nice regarding determining when to harvest:
https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/HYG-1436


----------



## pgentile

sour_grapes said:


> Acid decreases with hang time. (c.f. http://www.winecountrythisweek.com/articles/what-“hang-time” )
> 
> I found this source kinda nice regarding determining when to harvest:
> https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/HYG-1436



What @sour_grapes said.


----------



## Ajmassa

Guess I should pick up some extra tartaric just in case. Really hoping these grapes don’t come in at ridiculous ph levels. 

This exert was comforting to read, even though i am not exactly sure why it’s universally agreed on as a positive if acidity continues to decrease. But if it’s on the internet then it must be true. [emoji4]

From: winecountrythisweek.com,

“Although measuring ripeness has been debated over the years, most people rely upon scientific measurements of sugar, acid and pH levels in the grapes. Others simply taste and examine the berries, seeds and skins, checking for physiological maturity. Regardless of how it is measured, there is little disagreement among winemakers as to the value of grape hang time and its impact on their grapes”


----------



## Boatboy24

And then you have places where chapitalization isn't allowed. So I imagine the growers have their target brix, and just let acidity fall where it may; as they can adjust that to their heart's content.


----------



## Johnd

Just spoke with my grape supplier in California, they were scheduled to harvest the premium Cab today, but rain threats have caused them to allow them to hang for another day or two. Sounds like the harvest numbers will be good enough (he drops excess fruit in this vineyard) for me to get some of these grapes. Looks like they may be picking towards the end of this week, fingers crossed. If I don't get in on the premiums, the Lodi fruit is probably a week to ten days away from harvest. Got all my toys and supplies ready, just need some dang fruit!!!!!


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> And then you have places where chapitalization isn't allowed. So I imagine the growers have their target brix, and just let acidity fall where it may; as they can adjust that to their heart's content.



Unless there’s other positive things happening while Brix increases, is this process of hangtime solely for sugar ?
Because if the difference is simply:
-adding acid with optimal °Brix
OR
-adding sugar with optimal acid 

I’d choose the latter every time if it was an option. I understand Cali regulations decide for us, but seems like adding sugar is a lot less complicated then adding acid. Faux pas here- but not in France! Hypothetically if that regulation was removed, I wonder what the preferred method would be.


----------



## ibglowin

Big debate these days in regards to Hang Time.

http://wine.wsu.edu/2006/03/06/hangtime/


----------



## mainshipfred

Just got off the phone with Vinmetrica about a calibration issue I had. During the call he commented on seeing a lot of high ph numbers this year.


----------



## jgmann67

My shipment from MoreWine finally showed up. Just in time to feed the AF and kick off the MLF before going to bed tonight. 

Odd... I wrote to MoreWine about the shipping issue (where my package went from Pittsburgh to Philly, passing my house along the way, and was marked "on its way to the next facility" on Sunday night... I was supposed to get it the previous Friday). The first response I got was from a fellow who said they're really sorry for the delay and he sent me an invoice where they were shipping these items to me overnight via FedEx. About an hour later, I got a second email from a different guy saying that my shipment should be here today. Don't know if I'll actually see anything from the FedEx man in the next few days. Suppose we'll see.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @pgentile. I called up Gino Pintos this morning about the Paso Robles grapes.
> They said they just got some in. Not tons. But they have Merlot, Pinot Noir, Syrah, and OV Zin. But my Cabernet is “at least 10 days away”.



You are correct the Paso Robles old vine zin are in. Picking up wednesday 12pm. 

Hey, sucks you have to wait longer, but at least they are not harvesting your cab early.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> My shipment from MoreWine finally showed up. Just in time to feed the AF and kick off the MLF before going to bed tonight.
> 
> Odd... I wrote to MoreWine about the shipping issue (where my package went from Pittsburgh to Philly, passing my house along the way, and was marked "on its way to the next facility" on Sunday night... I was supposed to get it the previous Friday). The first response I got was from a fellow who said they're really sorry for the delay and he sent me an invoice where they were shipping these items to me overnight via FedEx. About an hour later, I got a second email from a different guy saying that my shipment should be here today. Don't know if I'll actually see anything from the FedEx man in the next few days. Suppose we'll see.



Ive never had a bad experience with MoreWine, infact just the opposite. On a large order I requested MBR 31 and was sent CH 35. Without even asking they overnighted the MBR and told me to keep the 35. Another time I ordered BRY 97 when I should have ordered BRL 97. BRY is a beer yeast. I called and explained what I did and they told me they should have caught it since everything else was for wine and they shipped me out the BRL at no cost. I can only imagine your issue was just an honest mistake on someones part.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> My shipment from MoreWine finally showed up. Just in time to feed the AF and kick off the MLF before going to bed tonight.



When did you pitch yeast? I pitched late afternoon yesterday. Caps starting to form tonight, but not quite yet. I was going to wait until tomorrow. Now I'm wondering if that's the right idea...


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> You are correct the Paso Robles old vine zin are in. Picking up wednesday 12pm.
> 
> Hey, sucks you have to wait longer, but at least they are not harvesting your cab early.



I’m perfectly fine with it. More time to get my ducks on a row. And Like you said, it’s comforting knowing that harvest time is getting proper focus.
Just outta the norm for me having never picked up grapes in October before.


----------



## Ajmassa

ibglowin said:


> Big debate these days in regards to Hang Time.
> 
> http://wine.wsu.edu/2006/03/06/hangtime/



Awesome article. Winemakers battling the vineyards. Quality vs quantity. And the writer really gives great info. Thanks. 
Made me think of this podcast with John Caldwell, the notorious French vine smuggling clone pioneer of Caldwell Vineyards. Owns the winery and vineyard= no battle. He talks about his Tannat(?) grapes coming in ~2.7 at good Brix. And how he pushed thru to 3.6-3.7 with the Brix well over 30%. Said the grapes shriveled up like “grandmas t***y” and falling off the vine. 
Lost yield- watered down the Brix, but wine came out so exceptional that he charges top $, and now is the only way he makes his tannat. 
One of many great stories told in this podcast. The story of smuggling the vines into the US is wild. Here’s the link. 
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast...th-jim-duane/id906249753?mt=2&i=1000392573491


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> When did you pitch yeast? I pitched late afternoon yesterday. Caps starting to form tonight, but not quite yet. I was going to wait until tomorrow. Now I'm wondering if that's the right idea...



Don't second guess yourself. Do what you think the wine is telling you to do. 

I pitched yeast on Saturday night, just before bed. By Sunday night, a cap was starting to form. I wish I could have pitched MLB Monday morning, but didn't have time or my shipment from MW.


----------



## Boatboy24

Caps forming this morning, so I did a punchdown and added 1/2 dose of Fermaid O. I'll pitch MLB tonight.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Caps forming this morning, so I did a punchdown and added 1/2 dose of Fermaid O. I'll pitch MLB tonight.



This morning’s cap is something. 













The last set of pics wouldn’t post properly. Hopefully these do.


----------



## Boatboy24

Got MLB hydrated and pitched about an hour ago. Things are cooking. 

Interesting note: The Petite Syrah seems to have the same volume as the other 3 wines, but appears to be much heavier in skin content. So much so, that even with a cap formed, punch downs are challenging as skins seem to be solid throughout the must. I don't recall this w/ previous PS. The other 3 run the gamut, with the Zin being the most 'liquidy' of the bunch.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Got MLB hydrated and pitched about an hour ago. Things are cooking.
> 
> Interesting note: The Petite Syrah seems to have the same volume as the other 3 wines, but appears to be much heavier in skin content. So much so, that even with a cap formed, punch downs are challenging as skins seem to be solid throughout the must. I don't recall this w/ previous PS. The other 3 run the gamut, with the Zin being the most 'liquidy' of the bunch.



I had a similar experience with my PS. Ended up with 1+ gallon less than the brunello in volume after free run and press. But the PS is already tasty at several weeks old. Plus the PS skins made my nebiollo buckets just as dark.


----------



## Ajmassa

My 2018 wines to date. 
-It’s 22 gal of Malbec. Still separated d80 and d254. And still rocking no sulphites goin on 5 months. 
-Syrah juice bucket with all those Malbec skins
-and this fall’s family Red

Malbecs and Syrah are going great. Malbec About to get So2 and blended in the new barrel. 
The family red is tasting already exactly as I remember- but the Zinfandel adds a little extra something. With a demi and a carboy I’m thinking of adding malo to the carboy just for kicks. And I’ll be able to note the differences....hopefully.


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Nice. So the ultimate goal is a 2 week ferment. Very optimistic. I like that your up for the challenge. I’m not sure what system you’ve got going on with temp control but I know you’ve got some tricks up your sleeve ready.
> 
> Vegas has the O/U at 9.5 days to reach 1.000.
> 
> No 1/2 day selection increments so we don’t push. Venmo or PayPal will work. Juice is 10%



I think Vegas odds are going to win the day with this one. We're 4 days in to a ferment and the wine is already down to 1.030 SG.


----------



## Boatboy24

Child labor is cheap.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Ive never had a bad experience with MoreWine, infact just the opposite. On a large order I requested MBR 31 and was sent CH 35. Without even asking they overnighted the MBR and told me to keep the 35. Another time I ordered BRY 97 when I should have ordered BRL 97. BRY is a beer yeast. I called and explained what I did and they told me they should have caught it since everything else was for wine and they shipped me out the BRL at no cost. I can only imagine your issue was just an honest mistake on someones part.



Looks like I'll have some extra Opti-Malo and Fermaid-O on hand... Fedex says they have a package for me. It's not that this is a "bad" experience. The MoreWine folks make mistakes like everyone else. But, they're very responsive and do their best to make things right. With my first shipment this season, they missed an item (Opti-Red, I think). I called them, no hassle, another was in the mail the next day. With the next shipment, the guys at USPS decided to tour the state before getting it to me. Same thing, I emailed MoreWine, and they go out of their way to make it right. If they make a mistake and don't care/won't fix it (like the folks at a certain HBS that will go unnamed here, and with whom I will never again do business), that's bad... haven't had one of those with the MoreWine folks.


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> I think Vegas odds are going to win the day with this one. We're 4 days in to a ferment and the wine is already down to 1.030 SG.



I imagine it’s difficult to alter Mother Nature without professional type equipment. What methods have you been using to lengthen the ferment ? I remember you said yeast is AMH- I’m guessing this has traits to lengthen the time? What about temp? Ice bottles?

Also- how good does your house smell? Kinda jealous of all you guys right now.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Got MLB hydrated and pitched about an hour ago. Things are cooking.
> 
> Interesting note: The Petite Syrah seems to have the same volume as the other 3 wines, but appears to be much heavier in skin content. So much so, that even with a cap formed, punch downs are challenging as skins seem to be solid throughout the must. I don't recall this w/ previous PS. The other 3 run the gamut, with the Zin being the most 'liquidy' of the bunch.



My PS is the same. I didn't pitch the yeast until yesterday evening. The PS showed no activity until this morning but the others were already forming a cap with the native yeasts. Got the Sauv Blanc in the chest freezer at 55*. Chugging along nicely. Wine temp of Rhone 4600 is 58* and QA23 60*. May bump up the temp a little as they are both at their lower temp limit.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 51363
> 
> 
> My 2018 wines to date.
> -It’s 22 gal of Malbec. Still separated d80 and d254. And still rocking no sulphites goin on 5 months.
> -Syrah juice bucket with all those Malbec skins
> -and this fall’s family Red
> 
> Malbecs and Syrah are going great. Malbec About to get So2 and blended in the new barrel.
> The family red is tasting already exactly as I remember- but the Zinfandel adds a little extra something. With a demi and a carboy I’m thinking of adding malo to the carboy just for kicks. And I’ll be able to note the differences....hopefully.



Looking real good. Can't tell if you have the Family Red on the Chromo but thought you were going all natural if you did.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> I think Vegas odds are going to win the day with this one. We're 4 days in to a ferment and the wine is already down to 1.030 SG.



The only way I got 2 weeks was leaving it in the freezer for a week. Fermemtation completed in 7 days.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Child labor is cheap.
> 
> View attachment 51373



You better be carfull. There are laws against things like this.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Looking real good. Can't tell if you have the Family Red on the Chromo but thought you were going all natural if you did.



Yup. It’s the 1st one on the left. Only one with malic acid in it. And yea it’s all natural. No So2, nutrients, oak chips, yeast, malo etc.. 
Successful native ferment. But I’m thinkin to keep the experiment going now. And when I’m inoculating mlb to my grapes in a couple weeks to also add it to the carboy of the family red. Leaving the lions share natural. And maybe will get an opportunity to taste exact same batch with MLf and without. Strictly for 1st hand experience. 
Because I only just go by what’s said with MLf. Will be nice to see for myself.


----------



## Ajmassa

Was definitely wingin it for that 1st batch. But getting fully prepared for he expensive stuff. Morewine did not disappoint - as always. Placed an order Sunday night. Waiting for me at home Tuesday afternoon. 
Went with old faithful VP-41 for mlb. And So2 titrets. (I realize others don’t like titrets for reds but I like em a lot) and other random junk. 
My yeast is a year old and it wasn’t refrigerated since May. It came repackaged from Lodiwinelabs and there is no expiration date. Andante yeast. I also have a variety of others also room temp and 1yr old. 
What would you do? Buy fresh or let jt ride?


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yup. It’s the 1st one on the left. Only one with malic acid in it. And yea it’s all natural. No So2, nutrients, oak chips, yeast, malo etc..
> Successful native ferment. But I’m thinkin to keep the experiment going now. And when I’m inoculating mlb to my grapes in a couple weeks to also add it to the carboy of the family red. Leaving the lions share natural. And maybe will get an opportunity to taste exact same batch with MLf and without. Strictly for 1st hand experience.
> Because I only just go by what’s said with MLf. Will be nice to see for myself.



It will be a while before you taste it but when you do try to see if the difference resembles a kit taste. Although with no SO2 added it will probably goe through MLF to some extent. My theory has always been it's the malic in the red kits that produce that taste but no proof of this.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Was definitely wingin it for that 1st batch. But getting fully prepared for he expensive stuff. Morewine did not disappoint - as always. Placed an order Sunday night. Waiting for me at home Tuesday afternoon.
> Went with old faithful VP-41 for mlb. And So2 titrets. (I realize others don’t like titrets for reds but I like em a lot) and other random junk.
> My yeast is a year old and it wasn’t refrigerated since May. It came repackaged from Lodiwinelabs and there is no expiration date. Andante yeast. I also have a variety of others also room temp and 1yr old.
> What would you do? Buy fresh or let jt ride?



If it's an 8 gram pack I would personally remove a little from the pack and try rehydrating it. If it starts you know it's good. An open pack of yeast will stay good for a little while.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> It will be a while before you taste it but when you do try to see if the difference resembles a kit taste. Although with no SO2 added it will probably goe through MLF to some extent. My theory has always been it's the malic in the red kits that produce that taste but no proof of this.



I will be dosing with So2 in a month or so. Just wanna see if MLf naturally happens. So I took a base chroma test to compare against later. 
Assuming I end up MLf and non MLf, I’ll let you form your own opinions and send one of each. After all that’s why I made 120 bottles worth. To drink and gift early. Having some grape wine to enjoy while the others are aging. 




mainshipfred said:


> If it's an 8 gram pack I would personally remove a little from the pack and try rehydrating it. If it starts you know it's good. An open pack of yeast will stay good for a little while.



Genius! Thanks. Sometimes a second set of eyes makes all the difference.


----------



## jgmann67

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I imagine it’s difficult to alter Mother Nature without professional type equipment. What methods have you been using to lengthen the ferment ? I remember you said yeast is AMH- I’m guessing this has traits to lengthen the time? What about temp? Ice bottles?
> 
> Also- how good does your house smell? Kinda jealous of all you guys right now.



The AMH is supposed to be a slow burn type of a yeast. I figured with the basement as cool as it is, I could squeeze some extra time out it. Can't say I'm a fan of doing much else. So, extended skin exposure is not in the cards. Maybe it'll slow down over the next few days...

The basement smells awesome! I love the smell of a healthy fermentation. I have a fan on high, blowing across the top of the fermenter (to keep the fruit flies away). So, the whole basement is full of that grape bread smell.


----------



## mainshipfred

This is my fall collection so far
Buckets: left Petite Sirah with D80 RP15 Clos, Middle Tempranillo with BM45 VBR Rhone 4600, Right Touriga with Syrah D21 and 71B
Carboys: left OV Zin with R56 AMH and BDX, right Syrah with Syrah, Clos and Rhone 4600
Not Shown, in the freezer, Sauv Blanc with QA23 and Rhone 4600
Still debating if I want a juice bucket for the skins and another varietal of grapes. Kind of running out of room.


----------



## pgentile

Rather disappointing week so far over here in the dungeon, while all batches are safely bulk aging right now, I have no Paso Robles old vine zin grapes in my possession. Car number one wouldn't start last week, while it is under warranty the part needed is back ordered so it's still at the dealer, then yesterday car number two decided it wasn't going to start either. Towed to the mechanic.

Going to shoot for Friday.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Car number one wouldn't start last week, while it is under warranty the part needed is back ordered so it's still at the dealer, then yesterday car number two decided it wasn't going to start either. Towed to the mechanic.


Must be in the air or something. My wife just had her torque converter replaced (luckily under warranty). Didn't have the car for two days, though she had a loaner. Of course she commented "I hate giving up this loaner car, it's so nice...". That's how they suck you in, show you something better. I personally prefer no car payment at this point in my life. Hope things work out okay with your vehicles.


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> Must be in the air or something. My wife just had her torque converter replaced (luckily under warranty). Didn't have the car for two days, though she had a loaner. Of course she commented "I hate giving up this loaner car, it's so nice...". That's how they suck you in, show you something better. I personally prefer no car payment at this point in my life. Hope things work out okay with your vehicles.



Thanks, something in the air for sure. I passed on a loaner car because we have the 2nd car and our schedules weren't conflicting.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Rather disappointing week so far over here in the dungeon, while all batches are safely bulk aging right now, I have no Paso Robles old vine zin grapes in my possession. Car number one wouldn't start last week, while it is under warranty the part needed is back ordered so it's still at the dealer, then yesterday car number two decided it wasn't going to start either. Towed to the mechanic.
> 
> Going to shoot for Friday.



Sorry to hear.


----------



## Boatboy24

While doing punchdowns this morning, my 9 year old learned what H2S smells like. 3 of the four batches are going great. When he got to the Syrah, he said "this one smells like a bad fart!"


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> While doing punchdowns this morning, my 9 year old learned what H2S smells like. 3 of the four batches are going great. When he got to the Syrah, he said "this one smells like a bad fart!"



Got to tell you the reds all have an odor I can't describe. Not really H2S or VA unless it's a very early stage. Just have to wait until AF is complete I guess.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Got to tell you the reds all have an odor I can't describe. Not really H2S or VA unless it's a very early stage. Just have to wait until AF is complete I guess.



I'm off tomorrow and could swing by the shop to take a whiff if you want.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm off tomorrow and could swing by the shop to take a whiff if you want.



That would be great if you could. I should be here all day.


----------



## jgmann67

I'm targeting a Sunday afternoon pressing at this point. the SG was about 2/3rds of the way home a couple days ago, and the ferment temp is still about 80* last night. Looks and smells remarkable. 

Because I co-inoculated, I wonder if there's anything I need to be aware of when racking from primary to carboy. I think my answer is, again, no. I'll press, minimize headspace in the carboys and let it finish fermentation for another 10-14 days. With any luck, the MLF will be done by then too.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I'm targeting a Sunday afternoon pressing at this point. the SG was about 2/3rds of the way home a couple days ago, and the ferment temp is still about 80* last night. Looks and smells remarkable.
> 
> Because I co-inoculated, I wonder if there's anything I need to be aware of when racking from primary to carboy. I think my answer is, again, no. I'll press, minimize headspace in the carboys and let it finish fermentation for another 10-14 days. With any luck, the MLF will be done by then too.



Don't forget to rack a day or two after pressing.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Don't forget to rack a day or two after pressing.



I won't. When I press, I'm hoping to fill 2 6gal carboys and have about 2-3gal of excess for racking down. We'll see, but I think the yield on the OVZ is going to be pretty good.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> I won't. When I press, I'm hoping to fill 2 6gal carboys and have about 2-3gal of excess for racking down. We'll see, but I think the yield on the OVZ is going to be pretty good.



Jim, I recently pressed 4 lugs of OVZ from Procassi and filled a 6 and 3 gallon carboy plus 2 bottles. This yield was after racking a day after press.


----------



## jgmann67

mainshipfred said:


> Jim, I recently pressed 4 lugs of OVZ from Procassi and filled a 6 and 3 gallon carboy plus 2 bottles. This yield was after racking a day after press.



Wow! That's pretty good! Given that I have 4 lugs and a 6 gallon pail, I'm right where I want to be.


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Wow! That's pretty good! Given that I have 4 lugs and a 6 gallon pail, I'm right where I want to be.



Didn't realize you had a bucket as well. Thought you were being overly optimistic about the yield from 4 lugs. LOL!


----------



## mainshipfred

I needed an extra sniffer so @Boatboy24 Jim was good enough to let me borrow his. I had an odor I couldn't identify. We both made the mistake of sniffing a little too close to the wine and got a nose full of CO2. It could have been a little H2S or VA in the different batches but nothing conclusive. Jim brought something to my attention I probably wouldn't have picked up on if he didn't say anything. The 2 Sauv Blanc buckets had a different scent. He described the one with the Rhone 4600 as more of a tropical fruit scent then the one with the QA23. If I'm lucky enough to get 3 gallons of each I'll keep them separate. Always use different yeasts but never aged them separately. Chances are I will blend them together prior to bottling but this will be the first time I'll have the opportunity to taste the differences a yeast will make.


----------



## jgmann67

The OVZ is fermented to zero... went like a rocket. Today is day 8. Press now or wait another day?


----------



## Ajmassa

jgmann67 said:


> The OVZ is fermented to zero... went like a rocket. Today is day 8. Press now or wait another day?



1.5 days under the line. The house always wins! 

Although a healthy ferment that goes dry is a win no matter how ya look at it. Well done sir. 

Unless the color was lacking, the only factor into this decision, for me, would be convenience. If waiting then I’d leave the cap in place until press.


----------



## jgmann67

Color is pretty good. 

All the equipment is clean and ready to go. Of course, that means it’ll be clean and ready tomorrow too. 

Is there any real harm to letting it sit another day?


----------



## pgentile

Finally picked up 7 lugs of the Paso Robles OV Zin this morning. Crushed and warming up in the basement.

Fruit looked good, some slight raisins but not too many. Brix 27 pH 3.65. Will take measurements again in the am.

Packed on SO2 pads.

Gino's was hoppin' mostly juice buckets though, the hour I was there I was the only one getting grapes.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Finally picked up 7 lugs of the Paso Robles OV Zin this morning. Crushed and warming up in the basement.
> 
> Fruit looked good, some slight raisins but not too many. Brix 27 pH 3.65. Will take measurements again in the am.
> 
> Packed on SO2 pads.
> 
> Gino's was hoppin' mostly juice buckets though, the hour I was there I was the only one getting grapes.


Are ya gonna knock that brix back with some acidulated water? Just curious, 27 seems a bit high, the 3.65 pH seems perfect.

Edit: on second thought, some Zin's are pretty high in alcohol, less fooling usually makes better wine in my opinion, humble as always of course.


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> Are ya gonna knock that brix back with some acidulated water? Just curious, 27 seems a bit high, the 3.65 pH seems perfect.
> 
> Edit: on second thought, some Zin's are pretty high in alcohol, less fooling usually makes better wine in my opinion, humble as always of course.



Unless the numbers are way different in the am, I will let this one ride. 15% or so, this Zin should be able to handle it.


----------



## ceeaton

pgentile said:


> Unless the numbers are way different in the am, I will let this one ride. 15% or so, this Zin should be able to handle it.


I'll save one of my Lanza Zin's for you if you save one of your Paso Robles Zin's for me (I'll also throw in an EM brunello if it's ready by then).


----------



## pgentile

ceeaton said:


> I'll save one of my Lanza Zin's for you if you save one of your Paso Robles Zin's for me (I'll also throw in an EM brunello if it's ready by then).


Lanza for Paso Robles trade sounds fair even up. Done deal.


----------



## stickman

@pgentile if you let the high brix ride, just be sure your yeast selection is up to the task.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Finally picked up 7 lugs of the Paso Robles OV Zin this morning. Crushed and warming up in the basement.
> 
> Fruit looked good, some slight raisins but not too many. Brix 27 pH 3.65. Will take measurements again in the am.
> 
> Packed on SO2 pads.
> 
> Gino's was hoppin' mostly juice buckets though, the hour I was there I was the only one getting grapes.



Very nice! If the cab comes in at those numbers I’ll be extremely happy. 

I hope they have some extra buckets next wknd- tho I doubt it since it’ll be so late in the season.


----------



## pgentile

stickman said:


> @pgentile if you let the high brix ride, just be sure your yeast selection is up to the task.



RC-212 again. Nutrient supplies good. CH16 MLB Opt-malo. Ready to go.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Very nice! If the cab comes in at those numbers I’ll be extremely happy.
> 
> I hope they have some extra buckets next weekend- tho I doubt it since it’ll be so late in the season.



They were rolling out red buckets mostly today, when ever I've checked this late it's usually lighter white buckets left.


----------



## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> They were rolling out red buckets mostly today, when ever I've checked this late it's usually lighter white buckets left.



Dammit! I never got that Sauv Blanc bucket like I wanted. I’ll call around tomorrow and see what’s up. Thanks


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Dammit! I never got that Sauv Blanc bucket like I wanted. I’ll call around tomorrow and see what’s up. Thanks


If your going to Pinto's when your Paso Robles Cab is in, at least if you call tomorrow and they still have what you want, they will add it to your order and hold. If you wait until your grapes are in it might be too late.


----------



## jgmann67

So I did a solo press last night. Much less fuss and mess than last year. I might be getting the hang of this stuff. In all, I pressed 15.5 gallons. On Monday, we’ll rack again. 

Need to free up a 6gal carboy by tomorrow. Looking like I might bottle the EM French Merlot or a chard to make room. We’ll see. 












I started around 5:00 p.m. and was done cleaning up around 9:00, with a break for dinner.


----------



## mainshipfred

Need to free up a 6gal carboy by tomorrow. Looking like I might bottle the EM French Merlot or a chard to make room. We’ll see.

I'm going to have to bottle something as well. I have five 3 gallon carboys that are all full. Never realized how useful these are.


----------



## Boatboy24

I've got some 2016 Petite Sirah in 3, 1 gallon bottles. I need to move it into a 3gal, or bottle it. I figure I'll need the 1 gallon containers when pressing. 

Just finished punchdowns and SG measurements. The Cab is at 1.030. The other 3 are between 1.002 and 0.998. I'm going to wait to press until tomorrow so I only have to set up and clean up once. Busy week coming up and tomorrow is my only chance. Thank goodness for the holiday.

@mainshipfred : I know you have plenty of your own, but you're welcome to my skins if you want 'em.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I've got some 2016 Petite Sirah in 3, 1 gallon bottles. I need to move it into a 3gal, or bottle it. I figure I'll need the 1 gallon containers when pressing.
> 
> Just finished punchdowns and SG measurements. The Cab is at 1.030. The other 3 are between 1.002 and 0.998. I'm going to wait to press until tomorrow so I only have to set up and clean up once. Busy week coming up and tomorrow is my only chance. Thank goodness for the holiday.
> 
> @mainshipfred : I know you have plenty of your own, but you're welcome to my skins if you want 'em.



Just finished my readings: Touriga 1.001, 1.001 and 1.005 Tempranillo .995, .996 and .996 Petite Sirah 1.018, 1.014 and 1.016 Sauv Blanc 1.000 and 1.004. I snapped the lids on all of them with an air lock except the SB which is in the freezer. I too want to wait until tomorrow to press but can't press until I do some carboy management and/or bottle two 3 gallon carboys. I could buy 2 tomorrow at Jay's Homebrew but I hate paying full price, nothing on Craigslist.

As far as the skins go how do you feel about putting as many as we can in my freezer and buying a couple juice buckets from S and S next weekend. I can't make it up there until then. It's quite a variety of skins.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> As far as the skins go how do you feel about putting as many as we can in my freezer and buying a couple juice buckets from S and S next weekend. I can't make it up there until then. It's quite a variety of skins.



I am booked solid next weekend with baseball and Cub Scout camping trip. But you're welcome to the skins.


----------



## Boatboy24

Cab down to 1.020 today. Would like it to be lower, but the show must go on. Pressing after lunch.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Cab down to 1.020 today. Would like it to be lower, but the show must go on. Pressing after lunch.



What about the PS, mine still has a thick cap but down to 1.016.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> What about the PS, mine still has a thick cap but down to 1.016.



Syrah and PS were both at 1.000 yesterday. Zin at 0.998. All still have a cap, though the Zin's falls apart when you so much as look at it.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Syrah and PS were both at 1.000 yesterday. Zin at 0.998. All still have a cap, though the Zin's falls apart when you so much as look at it.



My son offered to do most of the pressing for me. Before I bottle the 2017 Chilean Syrah I want to do some blending with last falls Barbara and/or OVZ. Will also bottles the rest of the Norton Blend. The 11 gassy bottles are being vaccuum degassed right now. This will free up 2 three gallon carboys for the Sauv Blanc so I can use the freezer for the skins.


----------



## pgentile

Did another chroma yesterday(sorry no pic, so some of you can doubt) and the 3 Australian juice buckets at 3 months, the PS and the Brunello at 4 weeks are all complete with MLF. Racked the Aus wines onto med amer oak chips, these won't be going in the barrel. The aus cab had a lot of tartaric crystals. None in the syrah or grenache

Brunello and PS will eventually go in the barrel after Pinotage and Carmenere/malbec batches from the spring.

OV zin has cap as of lunchtime. Looking forward to the smell when I get back home.


----------



## Boatboy24

How'd your press go, @mainshipfred ? Mike seems able and eager, so I'm sure it went fine.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> How'd your press go, @mainshipfred ? Mike seems able and eager, so I'm sure it went fine.



Started around 3:30 racking the Sauv Blanc to carboys. Finished pressing and cleaning around 7:00. My son Mike was a great help. He did most of the pressing and I did the cleaning and prep work. Wouldn't have taken that long but we triple pressed the Touriga and PS. Absolutely amazing how light you have to press to extract the wine when you fluff the skins. Ended up with 6g SB, 12+ Tempranillo, only 7-8 Touriga and 7.75 PS. PS had a ton of sediment, had trouble keeping the strainers from getting clogged. Only took one pic at the start.


----------



## jgmann67

Racked last night. Lost a half gallon to the goop. Down to 15 gallons. Hopefully there's enough good stuff left in the wine for a strong finish for my MLF.


----------



## mainshipfred

Thinking about going to this if anyone's interested.

Washington Winemakers are invited. We provide a wine tasting after the lunch.
We have room for 10 or so winemakers.
Washington Winemakers pays for the lunch.
Let me know if you want to attend and pour. Three or four bottles is usually enough, though we generally bring our own wine, as well, for the lunch.


----------



## Ajmassa

Regarding the juice bucket concerns. I spoke with Pintos earlier this week. Was told they have plenty of buckets still available. 
I asked for specific varietals and was told not to worry. They still have all available and won’t have a problem getting what I wanted this weekend.


----------



## Ajmassa

Don’t know about where yous come from- but ‘round here it’s PERFECT winemaking weather! [emoji1591]


----------



## mainshipfred

jgmann67 said:


> Racked last night. Lost a half gallon to the goop. Down to 15 gallons. Hopefully there's enough good stuff left in the wine for a strong finish for my MLF.



Was with my winemaker friend yesterday talking about MLF. Now remember he does commercial size barrels. He doesn't use Acti-ML or Opti-Malo Plus. Once he introduces the MLB it stayes in the barrel until January or February. He will then do a rack and return and sulfite a month later. He said as long as you keep it topped up there is no problem with spoilage. My only question I didn't ask was do smaller batches go through MLF faster.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Was with my winemaker friend yesterday talking about MLF. Now remember he does commercial size barrels. He doesn't use Acti-ML or Opti-Malo Plus. Once he introduces the MLB it stayes in the barrel until January or February. He will then do a rack and return and sulfite a month later. He said as long as you keep it topped up there is no problem with spoilage. My only question I didn't ask was do smaller batches go through MLF faster.



A while back I posted a link to a homewinemakers detailed account of starting an impressive home winery. In the site he details his annual struggles with MLF. I ended up reaching out offering info on coinnoculation. Here his reply. 


All the study’s I’ve read did not much of a difference in quality from either way. But if that’s how all the high end winemakers do it then can’t argue. And FWIW I co-innoc’d May grapes and let it ride a while. Topped up but w/o any So2 addition. Racked and dosed last week. All was well. 

This is the Thread mentioned
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?threads/Impressive-home-vineyard-winery.66109/


----------



## mainshipfred

He, like us, does a racking after 3 day after press. What he doesn't do is the racking after 3 weeks. He says the bacteria needs these nutrients and make sure you stir regularly. I'm following his protocol this fall. The only difference is mine will be going through MLF in glass for the first couple months.


----------



## jgmann67

We went from a lot of activity in the carboys, to virtually none. I'm hoping that's a good thing. We're going on three weeks since the start. I'm just praying for a successful MLF for a change.


----------



## Boatboy24

My Cab is still bubbling about every 1.5 seconds. I need to take an SG reading - it was 1.020 when I pressed...10 days ago.


----------



## mainshipfred

My season is done. I just got awarded a new project while starting another one and finishing one up and I have to sit with my mom while my brother and his family go on vacation. Unfortunate because the Washington State grapes are supposed to be Super Premium from Yakima Valley but they are $2.00/lb.


----------



## pgentile

OV Zin is all off the gross lees at this point. Activity still going. With 7 lugs I ended up with 17.5 gls, 13.5 fee run and 4 press. 

Froze several lbs of the skins. Made a beer wort and tossed it on a portion of the skins. Will dry hop and then carbonate like a normal beer. Purely experimental. Will take remaining skins and add elderberry concentrate for a batch of zin/elderberry. Was going to get a few juice buckets to throw on the skin, but had beer extract and elderberry concentrate sitting around from a gift a few months ago. So thought I would experiment a bit.

@jgmann67 good luck on that MLF, crossing my fingers.


----------



## jgmann67

pgentile said:


> @jgmann67 good luck on that MLF, crossing my fingers.



Thanks. Me too. [emoji1303]


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> My season is done. I just got awarded a new project while starting another one and finishing one up and I have to sit with my mom while my brother and his family go on vacation. Unfortunate because the Washington State grapes are supposed to be Super Premium from Yakima Valley but they are $2.00/lb.



Want me to buy/make your Washington wine? I have a little time the next 2-3 days. We could split a batch. You did the hard work of sourcing - I don't mind doing the crush. Just need to find the OptiRed and Lallzyme.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Want me to buy/make your Washington wine? I have a little time the next 2-3 days. We could split a batch. You did the hard work of sourcing - I don't mind doing the crush. Just need to find the OptiRed and Lallzyme.



He's getting Merlot and Cab Franc. Which would you prefer


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Thanks. Me too. [emoji1303]


Yell when you want to test, or better yet give the sample to my brother at work. Wifey working, daughter in a field hockey tournament, I need to get the lawn done and clean a bunch of bottles to actually, some day bottle some of this old wine sitting in carboys. Oh, going to attempt a piece 'o brisket tomorrow between men's breakfast and taking my daughter to school for the tournament. Oh, I've also got to go into work since they delivered my son's new phone after I left today (I love you FedEx), then BJs for charcoal.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Yell when you want to test, or better yet give the sample to my brother at work. Wifey working, daughter in a field hockey tournament, I need to get the lawn done and clean a bunch of bottles to actually, some day bottle some of this old wine sitting in carboys. Oh, going to attempt a piece 'o brisket tomorrow between men's breakfast and taking my daughter to school for the tournament. Oh, I've also got to go into work since they delivered my son's new phone after I left today (I love you FedEx), then BJs for charcoal.



Will do. I’ll get you samples at the 1 month mark. Hopefully, the Zin will be good and the three amigos show some progress.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Will do. I’ll get you samples at the 1 month mark. Hopefully, the Zin will be good and the three amigos show some progress.


Let me know when the 1 month mark hits, I may want to escape the asylum for a few hours. Plus I haven't seen my sister in a few/many months.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Let me know when the 1 month mark hits, I may want to escape the asylum for a few hours. Plus I haven't seen my sister in a few/many months.



End of October.


----------



## Boatboy24

Checked on the Cabernet again last night. Still tons of bubbles coming up the side of the carboy and the airlock is burping about every 1.5 seconds. 3 weeks since crush, and SG is at 0.996. I've never seen so much activity so late in the game.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Checked on the Cabernet again last night. Still tons of bubbles coming up the side of the carboy and the airlock is burping about every 1.5 seconds. 3 weeks since crush, and SG is at 0.996. I've never seen so much activity so late in the game.



Does seem like a lot of activity. Mine are showing positive pressure but no Burps. Going to Bull Run this morning to modify his hose bib and will let you know about the WA State but I can't imagine it's a problem.


----------



## Boatboy24

You on the payroll there yet? LOL!

Supposed to be going to Stone Tower tomorrow, but it looks like those plans could fall apart.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> You on the payroll there yet? LOL!
> 
> Supposed to be going to Stone Tower tomorrow, but it looks like those plans could fall apart.



Not on the payroll just stealing knowledge. Never been to Stone Tower but heard it's beautiful facility with over priced wines. You'll have to let me know if you go.


----------



## pgentile

Fall Update:

Pinotage from the spring is in the new barrel.

Carmener/Malbec and Cab Sauv/Syrah from spring bulk aging.

Australian Cab Sauv, Syrah and Grenache juice buckets from the summer bulk aging

Brunello from this fall bulk aging

Petite Syrah from this fall bulk aging

Zin from this fall finishing up MLF

The weakest wine in the bunch so far is the Grenache. But that's what I would expect. It's still good but not at the level of the rest.

Very happy with it all this year.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Fall Update:
> 
> Pinotage from the spring is in the new barrel.
> 
> Carmener/Malbec and Cab Sauv/Syrah from spring bulk aging.
> 
> Australian Cab Sauv, Syrah and Grenache juice buckets from the summer bulk aging
> 
> Brunello from this fall bulk aging
> 
> Petite Syrah from this fall bulk aging
> 
> Zin from this fall finishing up MLF
> 
> The weakest wine in the bunch so far is the Grenache. But that's what I would expect. It's still good but not at the level of the rest.
> 
> Very happy with it all this year.



Have you tasted the Carmener/Malbec, what were the percentages? Not sure how many gallons of the others you have but that barrel is going to be neutral before they all have a chance to go in. I think you're going to need another. I'm going to be placing another order the beginning of the year. I think 20 is the next price break.


----------



## pgentile

The carmenere/malbec was a field blend of 3 lugs Carmenere and 1 lug Malbec. So 75% Carmenere and 25% Malbec.

I would be in for another barrel next year.


----------



## mainshipfred

Added the MBR 31 on 10-13 after racking less then 24 hours after press. Rehydrated with Acti ML and added Opti-Malo Plus 2 days later. This may be the fastest MLF I ever had. Still going to let it go the 2-3 month term as recommended by my local winemaker.
Although I have no control I'm going to assume the additional lees for not letting it settle very long helped it along.


----------



## pgentile

Looks good Fred. I had similar results with CH16 this fall.


----------



## mainshipfred

My last batch, the Cab Franc I was thinking of using CH35 which I never used before. It was delivered by mistake from Morewine and they told me to keep it. In reading about it appears to be a high glycerol producer and I like the perceived sweetness of glycerol. Even though I'm going to let the others continue MLF I was considering racking some of the lees and use it. Hate opening a whole pack for 8 gallons of wine.


----------



## pgentile

I would go with the lees myself and save the package for the spring.


----------



## Ajmassa

Racked my SauvBlanc juice bucket yesterday. Finished at .994. Got 5gal exactly. Sucker is loaded with co2. Degassed a sample and checked for ph —-2.8!
White wine is new territory for me but that seems low. With all the acid and co2 I haven’t dosed So2 yet. Need to run TA and consult with the experts first! Also I didn’t dump the lees. Thoughts on adding some back? Lees is light and clean looking btw. 
I tend to not tinker with juice pail acids. In my experience they never need it regardless of numbers. But again— I don’t know much about whites.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I would go with the lees myself and save the package for the spring.



Kind of what I was thinking as well.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Racked my SauvBlanc juice bucket yesterday. Finished at .994. Got 5gal exactly. Sucker is loaded with co2. Degassed a sample and checked for ph —-2.8!
> White wine is new territory for me but that seems low. With all the acid and co2 I haven’t dosed So2 yet. Need to run TA and consult with the experts first! Also I didn’t dump the lees. Thoughts on adding some back? Lees is light and clean looking btw.
> I tend to not tinker with juice pail acids. In my experience they never need it regardless of numbers. But again— I don’t know much about whites.



Mine is 3.10, I racked it yesterday but left a good bit of lees in it. The lees are going to stay there until March or April. I had a peach that was around 2.8 but it was a little sweet and balanced nicely.


----------



## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Racked my SauvBlanc juice bucket yesterday. Finished at .994. Got 5gal exactly. Sucker is loaded with co2. Degassed a sample and checked for ph —-2.8!
> White wine is new territory for me but that seems low. With all the acid and co2 I haven’t dosed So2 yet. Need to run TA and consult with the experts first! Also I didn’t dump the lees. Thoughts on adding some back? Lees is light and clean looking btw.
> I tend to not tinker with juice pail acids. In my experience they never need it regardless of numbers. But again— I don’t know much about whites.



When I get home, I'll double check the sauv blanc pH, I think it was around 3.1-3.15. Didn't take TA. My lees are long gone. Made zero adjustments, it tastes good so not sure I want to mess with it. Feel the same way about juice pails.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Racked my SauvBlanc juice bucket yesterday. Finished at .994. Got 5gal exactly. Sucker is loaded with co2. Degassed a sample and checked for ph —-2.8!
> White wine is new territory for me but that seems low. With all the acid and co2 I haven’t dosed So2 yet. Need to run TA and consult with the experts first! Also I didn’t dump the lees. Thoughts on adding some back? Lees is light and clean looking btw.
> I tend to not tinker with juice pail acids. In my experience they never need it regardless of numbers. But again— I don’t know much about whites.



Gotta go with taste and your gut feel at this point, I think. I like a pretty crisp Sauv Blanc.


----------



## mainshipfred

Sad day today at Black Cellars. Doing the last press of the year. In an hour or so all crush and press equipment go into hibernation until spring and maybe as long as fall.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Sad day today at Black Cellars. Doing the last press of the year. In an hour or so all crush and press equipment go into hibernation until spring and maybe as long as fall.



Felt the same way when I did final pressing last week. The press looks sad sitting in the corner.


----------



## mainshipfred

Well press is done and I yielded just under 10 gallons with 120 lbs of grapes. I think that is really good. Hoping I can get 9 after the first rack. On another note you always hear you can't make great wine without great fruit. I may be sold now, this stuff is absolutely remarkable. @Boatboy24 you'll have to let me know how yours turns out


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Sad day today at Black Cellars. Doing the last press of the year. In an hour or so all crush and press equipment go into hibernation until spring and maybe as long as fall.



Unless we drive to Philly, I don't know of a source for southern hemisphere grapes.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Well press is done and I yielded just under 10 gallons with 120 lbs of grapes. I think that is really good. Hoping I can get 9 after the first rack. On another note you always hear you can't make great wine without great fruit. I may be sold now, this stuff is absolutely remarkable. @Boatboy24 you'll have to let me know how yours turns out



Morning punchdown complete. I had planned to press today, but after 8 days of fermenting, I'm only at 1.054.  (using RP15)

Ferment has been going great. Good caps that quickly form and no signs of H2S or any other off odors. It smells great. Color extraction is outstanding. This is a beautiful Merlot. I tasted a sample, just to be sure my hydrometer isn't off and there is certainly plenty of sugar left. I'm thinking of pitching some EC-1118 to shove this thing across the finish line, as I'm not able to press next week due to work.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Unless we drive to Philly, I don't know of a source for southern hemisphere grapes.



I'm working on it but it might depend on the quantities of an individual varietal. A trip to Jersey or Philly wouldn't bother me especially if we had a chance to meet up with Paul and AJ.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I'm working on it but it might depend on the quantities of an individual varietal. A trip to Jersey or Philly wouldn't bother me especially if we had a chance to meet up with Paul and AJ.



Agree. Would like that.


----------



## mainshipfred

I'm on my way to Pittsburgh for a week. There is a place there that might have some late harvest grapes but I can't really tell from the website. Falls may not be over yet. LOL!


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Morning punchdown complete. I had planned to press today, but after 8 days of fermenting, I'm only at 1.054.  (using RP15)
> 
> Ferment has been going great. Good caps that quickly form and no signs of H2S or any other off odors. It smells great. Color extraction is outstanding. This is a beautiful Merlot. I tasted a sample, just to be sure my hydrometer isn't off and there is certainly plenty of sugar left. I'm thinking of pitching some EC-1118 to shove this thing across the finish line, as I'm not able to press next week due to work.



Mine was going slow as well but due to my schedule I had to put towels around it and turn a heater on very low.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I'm on my way to Pittsburgh for a week. There is a place there that might have some late harvest grapes but I can't really tell from the website. Falls may not be over yet. LOL!



LOL! You have a serious problem, Fred!


----------



## mainshipfred

The place is cfp winemakers in Pittsburgh. They just got Lanza grapes in last Friday. I'm going down this morning to take a look I might pick up three lugs of Petit Verdot. BTW these are the people that host the homewinemaking convention in Pittsburgh


----------



## Mac60

mainshipfred said:


> The place is cfp winemakers in Pittsburgh. They just got Lanza grapes in last Friday. I'm going down this morning to take a look I might pick up three lugs of Petit Verdot. BTW these are the people that host the homewinemaking convention in Pittsburgh


You just can't stop, that fermenting smell is calling you...


----------



## sour_grapes

"My, umm, my name is Fred, and I have a problem....."


----------



## mainshipfred

Mac60 said:


> You just can't stop, that fermenting smell is calling you...



The Petite Verdot is the only Bordeaux wine I didn't make this year. Now I'll have the full compliment.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> The place is cfp winemakers in Pittsburgh. They just got Lanza grapes in last Friday. I'm going down this morning to take a look I might pick up three lugs of Petit Verdot. BTW these are the people that host the homewinemaking convention in Pittsburgh


Good luck with those grapes, one of these years I'm going to that Pittsburgh convention.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> The Petite Verdot is the only Bordeaux wine I didn't make this year. Now I'll have the full compliment.



Just remember Fred you are not the one with a problem, they are all just jealous.

But I am a little curious is there any variety of wine grapes you didn't get this year?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Good luck with those grapes, one of these years I'm going to that Pittsburgh convention.



I'm going to get the details when I go. I think it's in January.


----------



## sour_grapes

pgentile said:


> Just remember Fred you are not the one with a problem, they are all just jealous.



This has the ring of truth!


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Just remember Fred you are not the one with a problem, they are all just jealous.
> 
> But I am a little curious is there any variety of wine grapes you didn't get this year?



I'm sure there are but you can scratch Petite Verdot off the list. Reserved 3 lugs and picking up on my way home Wednesday.


----------



## Boatboy24

So, a month after pitching the yeast and SG of 0.996 and my Cab is still throwing a bubble through the airlock every 5 seconds or less.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> So, a month after pitching the yeast and SG of 0.996 and my Cab is still throwing a bubble through the airlock every 5 seconds or less.



About the same thing here with my zin, free run wine much more vigorous than press wine.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> About the same thing here with my zin, free run wine much more vigorous than press wine.



Same with my Cab Franc although I was forced to press sooner then I normally do. I normally wait until it's dry but this time the average SG was 1.012. Plus press wine usually has less lees/sediment then the free run. There is a lot more oxygen introduced with the free run but I would have thought the press would be full of yeast cells and nutrients. This one puzzles me a little, any thoughts.


----------



## Boatboy24

OK, just finished the afternoon punchdown and SG on the HHH Merlot is down to a low, low 1.030. Pitched the RP15 last Tuesday - ten days ago. Crazy. And I'm a little pissed. I would love to just let it ride and take advantage of the extra contact time. Super smooth ferment, wine is smelling and tasting great. But I HAVE to press tomorrow.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> OK, just finished the afternoon punchdown and SG on the HHH Merlot is down to a low, low 1.030. Pitched the RP15 last Tuesday - ten days ago. Crazy. And I'm a little pissed. I would love to just let it ride and take advantage of the extra contact time. Super smooth ferment, wine is smelling and tasting great. But I HAVE to press tomorrow.



Really surprising, did you rehydrate with Go-Ferm or add nutrients of any kind. I can't imagine you didn't.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Same with my Cab Franc although I was forced to press sooner then I normally do. I normally wait until it's dry but this time the average SG was 1.012. Plus press wine usually has less lees/sediment then the free run. There is a lot more oxygen introduced with the free run but I would have thought the press would be full of yeast cells and nutrients. This one puzzles me a little, any thoughts.



Wine pressed de-gasses more than free run wine syphoned with the AIO? In my case it looks to me that the free run wine is degassing and going through MLF while the press wine is just MLF. Pressed wine has the small less frequent pinprick bubbles.


----------



## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> OK, just finished the afternoon punchdown and SG on the HHH Merlot is down to a low, low 1.030. Pitched the RP15 last Tuesday - ten days ago. Crazy. And I'm a little pissed. I would love to just let it ride and take advantage of the extra contact time. Super smooth ferment, wine is smelling and tasting great. But I HAVE to press tomorrow.



It could be below 1.020 by press time tomorrow. RP15 known to be a slow ferment?


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Wine pressed de-gasses more than free run wine syphoned with the AIO? In my case it looks to me that the free run wine is degassing and going through MLF while the press wine is just MLF. Pressed wine has the small less frequent pinprick bubbles.



Makes perfect sense there are less gases in the pressed wine.


----------



## mainshipfred

Jim, if I remember correctly you had at least 15 gallons of must, I recalled but couldn't find the reference to some element that should be considered when adding yeast. Turned out to be the brix, see below. You were probably on the cusp of the higher rate which would have required 18.75 grams of yeast. I can't say first hand if this could be your issue since I ferment in must smaller quantities and an 8 gram pack is always enough.

*24 ºBrix* or below, 1 gram of wine yeast/gallon of must is recommended. 
*25 ºBrix* or above, 1.25 grams of wine yeast/gallon of must is recommended


----------



## Boatboy24

Yes to GoFerm and yes to nutrients. 8g packet of RP15. Got it started and let it go for about 4 hours before I pitched. Pretty much the same process I always follow, though the starter time was longer, as we had to leave for a baseball game.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Yes to GoFerm and yes to nutrients. 8g packet of RP15. Got it started and let it go for about 4 hours before I pitched. Pretty much the same process I always follow, though the starter time was longer, as we had to leave for a baseball game.



You've been doing this a lot longer then me and obviously your process is proven. But just to help me avoid a mistake in the future did you add any must to the rehydrated yeast before you left. It's always been my understanding the yeast uses the nutrients in the Go-Ferm pretty quickly and the must is necessary to keep it going.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> You've been doing this a lot longer then me and obviously your process is proven. But just to help me avoid a mistake in the future did you add any must to the rehydrated yeast before you left. It's always been my understanding the yeast uses the nutrients in the Go-Ferm pretty quickly and the must is necessary to keep it going.



I did. At least up until we left for the game. I add a little every few minutes, both for the nutrients and for temperature acclimation.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> End of October.


I've got good news, I'm going out to dinner with my wife tonight (local brewery).

The not so good news is that two of your wines need some more MLB, or more time. Zin looks done.




I need to also order some supplies for doing the tests since I'm running low (that big blob of Merlot was from me trying to get a single drop out of the syringe and save a pipet).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I've got good news, I'm going out to dinner with my wife tonight (local brewery).
> 
> The not so good news is that two of your wines need some more MLB, or more time. Zin looks done.
> 
> View attachment 52049
> 
> 
> I need to also order some supplies for doing the tests since I'm running low (that big blob of Merlot was from me trying to get a single drop out of the syringe and save a pipet).



Those are my Merlot and Cab from 2017. Guess 4th time is not a charm.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Those are my Merlot and Cab from 2017. Guess 4th time is not a charm.


And you did those post primary ferment, not by co inoculating...time to bottle and drink, I'll be over (to drink, not work).

the cubano is good BTW.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> And you did those post primary ferment, not by co inoculating...time to bottle and drink, I'll be over (to drink, not work).
> 
> the cubano is good BTW.



Yep. They were post AF. I’m going to rack and dose this month and move on.

But, this effort has inspired me: coinoculating from here on out.


----------



## baron4406

Thought my season was over, then they pull me back in.......hahaha. Got my Petit Syrah finishing up MLF in my fermonster, that is a tannin animal really puckers your mouth during a taste. Just tasted my Syrah in the barrel, oak is still light after 5 weeks- gonna go 8 weeks. Then I might throw the Petit Syrah in it for 12 weeks. These wines are gonna be bottled aged for a year or so , I don't care of they are over oaked a tad.Then a marketing email from Keystone arrives, they still have Washington grapes. I never made Carmenere and they have 800lbs of it. I may swing by and pick up 110 lbs. Decisions.


----------



## Boatboy24

Well, I'm done. I think. Just pressed the HHH Merlot (was at 1.020). Everything cleaned up and I'm ready to rest. Will rack tomorrow.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, I'm done. I think. Just pressed the HHH Merlot (was at 1.020). Everything cleaned up and I'm ready to rest. Will rack tomorrow.



How much did you get?


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> How much did you get?



About 8 1/4 gallons. I did the Fred trick and pressed, then emptied the press and gave it another go. Probably got another half gallon from that.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> About 8 1/4 gallons. I did the Fred trick and pressed, then emptied the press and gave it another go. Probably got another half gallon from that.



Pretty good for 107 lbs.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Pretty good for 107 lbs.



Yea, well I think I got hooked up with some pretty great fruit.


----------



## CK55

baron4406 said:


> Thought my season was over, then they pull me back in.......hahaha. Got my Petit Syrah finishing up MLF in my fermonster, that is a tannin animal really puckers your mouth during a taste. Just tasted my Syrah in the barrel, oak is still light after 5 weeks- gonna go 8 weeks. Then I might throw the Petit Syrah in it for 12 weeks. These wines are gonna be bottled aged for a year or so , I don't care of they are over oaked a tad.Then a marketing email from Keystone arrives, they still have Washington grapes. I never made Carmenere and they have 800lbs of it. I may swing by and pick up 110 lbs. Decisions.


Go for it, Carmenere is a really rare grape in the US, only 30 acres of it in the entire state of california. I didnt know they had a good deal of it in washington. 

Something to know about Carmenere its usually got a lot of acid but only moderate tannins.


----------



## heatherd

@ceeaton @Boatboy24 
There are some familiar faces on the Washington Winemakers page - there are photos of the pickup and crush posted: http://washingtonwinemakers.org/2018GrapeDelivery/pages/20180929_103657.htm ​


----------



## ceeaton

heatherd said:


> @ceeaton @Boatboy24
> There are some familiar faces on the Washington Winemakers page - there are photos of the pickup and crush posted: http://washingtonwinemakers.org/2018GrapeDelivery/pages/20180929_103657.htm ​


I'm just ecstatic they got a side profile picture of me.

Edit: and how did Fred escape that shot?


----------



## Boatboy24

heatherd said:


> @ceeaton @Boatboy24
> There are some familiar faces on the Washington Winemakers page - there are photos of the pickup and crush posted: http://washingtonwinemakers.org/2018GrapeDelivery/pages/20180929_103657.htm ​



A bunch of Jim's in that pic. Thanks Heather!


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> A bunch of Jim's in that pic. Thanks Heather!



4 out of 5. Someone needs to crop that Craig person.


----------



## mainshipfred

Since I'm picking up some Lanza grapes I was doing some research. I thought it was a wine region but it's the family name of the Owners of Wooden Valley Winery in the Suisun Valley AVA

https://www.woodenvalley.com/


----------



## mainshipfred

Picked up the Lanza Petit Verdot and they look very nice. Talked to Mario about the Wine Share they sponsor on January 26th. Two of the Lanza brothers attend one of which is the winemaker as well as the original producers of the Lodi Zinderella. There are also around 30 local commercial winemakers that buy their grapes from them. There are no guest speakers but rather it is an open floor for anyone to ask questions to these professionals and inneract with other home winemakers. Mario said he feels bad for the professionals because they barely have time to enjoy their dinner but that's their purpose for being there. Last year there were around 200 home winemakers many of whome are familiar with each other and some might be intimadated with this although I don't think this would be a problem for any of us. Really considering going. @vacuumpumpman this may be something you may want to consider. I remember you asking about things like this.

Edit: I forgot to mention CPF Winemakers is affiliated with Gino Pinto and some other place in Conneticut. 

https://www.cfpwinemakers.com/


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Picked up the Lanza Petit Verdot and they look very nice. Talked to Mario about the Wine Share they sponsor on January 26th. Two of the Lanza brothers attend one of which is the winemaker as well as the original producers of the Lodi Zinderella. There are also around 30 local commercial winemakers that buy their grapes from them. There are no guest speakers but rather it is an open floor for anyone to ask questions to these professionals and inneract with other home winemakers. Mario said he feels bad for the professionals because they barely have time to enjoy their dinner but that's their purpose for being there. Last year there were around 200 home winemakers many of whome are familiar with each other and some might be intimadated with this although I don't think this would be a problem for any of us. Really considering going. @vacuumpumpman this may be something you may want to consider. I remember you asking about things like this.
> 
> Edit: I forgot to mention CPF Winemakers is affiliated with Gino Pinto and some other place in Conneticut.
> 
> https://www.cfpwinemakers.com/



Those grapes look very nice. Very jealous Fred! I'm sold after this year on the higher level boutique grapes from known regions and vineyards. The Lanza stuff looks great, the Paso Robles Zin I got this year is already a better wine at 6 weeks than the premium Zin Regina Grapes the previous two years. I almost went for the Zinderella grapes this year. 

I have this event on my radar. Going to try and go.

Musto Wine Grape is the other affiliate I believe in Connecticut


----------



## stickman

I agree, those grapes look good. It seems like a good idea to have some Petit Verdot on hand for blending. I've used Petit Verdot in a few blends, but never tasted it on its own. In 2015 I did a Cab coferment with Petit Verdot 80/20, way more Petite Verdot than what I see as typical; while bottling, a friend of mine described the taste of the blend as "purple", whatever that is, but now after a couple years in bottle it is very interesting, it seems to have violets and lavender in the nose.


----------



## mainshipfred

stickman said:


> I agree, those grapes look good. It seems like a good idea to have some Petit Verdot on hand for blending. I've used Petit Verdot in a few blends, but never tasted it on its own. In 2015 I did a Cab coferment with Petit Verdot 80/20, way more Petite Verdot than what I see as typical; while bottling, a friend of mine described the taste of the blend as "purple", whatever that is, but now after a couple years in bottle it is very interesting, it seems to have violets and lavender in the nose.



It's the only Bordeaux varietal I haven't made this year. Heck I even have Carmenere which some consider the sixth noble grape. I am making it for blending but there are several local VA wineries making it as a single varietal or at least the dominant varietal. It's actually very nice by itself.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> It's the only Bordeaux varietal I haven't made this year. Heck I even have Carmenere which some consider the sixth noble grape. I am making it for blending but there are several local VA wineries making it as a single varietal or at least the dominant varietal. It's actually very nice by itself.



I saw several one ton bins of petit verdot when I was picking up my grapes this year, they really looked incredible, so I did a little digging thinking I might try my hand next year. This is an article that I read last month, pretty interesting insight into PV as a single varietal wine: https://winefolly.com/tutorial/featured-wine-petit-verdot/

Also found and ordered a bottle of 2013 Tor Petit Verdot Vine Hill Ranch, which was barrel rated (92-94)+ back in '14, it's in the middle of its drinking window, will be tasting it as soon as it arrives and settles down from its travels.

Rating: (90 - 92)+
Drink Date: 2014 - 2029

Reviewed by: Robert M. Parker, Jr.

Issue Date: 30th Oct 2014

Source 215, The Wine Advocate

The least impressive wine in this portfolio is still an outstanding effort. The 2013 Petit Verdot Vine Hill Ranch has avoided the rustic, astringent tannins of Petit Verdot as well as the sweaty saddle leather-like character this varietal can possess. It exhibits a black color, good sweetness and silkiness, and 10-15+ years of drinkability. Not yet released.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Those grapes look very nice. Very jealous Fred! I'm sold after this year on the higher level boutique grapes from known regions and vineyards. The Lanza stuff looks great, the Paso Robles Zin I got this year is already a better wine at 6 weeks than the premium Zin Regina Grapes the previous two years. I almost went for the Zinderella grapes this year.
> 
> I have this event on my radar. Going to try and go.
> 
> Musto Wine Grape is the other affiliate I believe in Connecticut



Similar to the Stellenbasch Cabs we've gotten. I'm with you on the known regions and vineyards but that does come with a price. Would be nice to go with another winemaker I know plus it would be nice if BJ and Lori could hang out and drink wine while we talked shop with the others. I think BJ would be bored otherwise.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Similar to the Stellenbasch Cabs we've gotten. I'm with you on the known regions and vineyards but that does come with a price. Would be nice to go with another winemaker I know plus it would be nice if BJ and Lori could hang out and drink wine while we talked shop with the others. I think BJ would be bored otherwise.


Well then let's try and make it happen.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Well then let's try and make it happen.



As of now I'm going. If anything changes I'll let you know but I have to try to make up for my un Hungary trip. Will start looking for hotels nearby.


----------



## mainshipfred

Just crushed and tested the PV. 25 brix but the ph is 3.24. A little surprised at that.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Just crushed and tested the PV. 25 brix but the ph is 3.24. A little surprised at that.



Fred, try lightly blending up a couple cups of must, strain the juice off, and test that, see if you get different numbers.


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Fred, try lightly blending up a couple cups of must, strain the juice off, and test that, see if you get different numbers.



Thanks, I'll try it in tomorrow. The brix is probably going to change as well.


----------



## Boatboy24

Grapes look awesome, Fred. But that's what we've come to know from Lanza. Agree w/ John on rechecking the numbers tomorrow. 

Just back from 4 days of debauchery in Dallas, but did do a visual check on the HHH Wa Merlot and the other 2018's. Merlot is still bubbling (expected), as is the Cab, which had yeast pitched on 10/1.


----------



## ibglowin

Yawn.

Pics or......... LOL



Boatboy24 said:


> Just back from 4 days of debauchery in Dallas.....


----------



## porkchopmessiah

Boatboy24 said:


> Morning punchdown complete. I had planned to press today, but after 8 days of fermenting, I'm only at 1.054.  (using RP15)
> 
> Ferment has been going great. Good caps that quickly form and no signs of H2S or any other off odors. It smells great. Color extraction is outstanding. This is a beautiful Merlot. I tasted a sample, just to be sure my hydrometer isn't off and there is certainly plenty of sugar left. I'm thinking of pitching some EC-1118 to shove this thing across the finish line, as I'm not able to press next week due to work.





mainshipfred said:


> I'm working on it but it might depend on the quantities of an individual varietal. A trip to Jersey or Philly wouldn't bother me especially if we had a chance to meet up with Paul and AJ.


I was at Corrados in north jersey, they said they be getting grapes in the spring from south America....


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> Fred, try lightly blending up a couple cups of must, strain the juice off, and test that, see if you get different numbers.



Did what you recommended. Ph now reads 3.37, better I guess. From what I've been reading PV is a high acid wine.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Did what you recommended. Ph now reads 3.37, better I guess. From what I've been reading PV is a high acid wine.



I understand the same. PV by itself, in Bordeaux, rarely if ever got ripe and always had that vegetal undertone and underripe tannins, hence always used in small percentages. Grown in the warmer areas (like where you got yours from), those characteristics are overcome by ripening, and I'm betting that you'll have a nice wine. By the time you finish AF / MLF, you should get your pH up near 3.5, not a bad spot to be in!!!!!


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> I understand the same. PV by itself, in Bordeaux, rarely if ever got ripe and always had that vegetal undertone and underripe tannins, hence always used in small percentages. Grown in the warmer areas (like where you got yours from), those characteristics are overcome by ripening, and I'm betting that you'll have a nice wine. By the time you finish AF / MLF, you should get your pH up near 3.5, not a bad spot to be in!!!!!



Not a bad spot at all, it was my thoughts exactly. Thanks again for the blender tip.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Not a bad spot at all, it was my thoughts exactly. Thanks again for the blender tip.



Your welcome, but I can't take credit, got it from Vinmetrica.......................It's the same reason we see our BRIX change as well the next day after crushing, takes time for all of the goodies to be released, the blender just releases everything quicker.


----------



## sdelli

mainshipfred said:


> Did what you recommended. Ph now reads 3.37, better I guess. From what I've been reading PV is a high acid wine.



I make PV every year for many years. Started for blending but it has come to be one of the better tasting wines on it’s own in my cellar. Gota say though... Always comes in at very high ph levels. Rarely get a batch that doesn’t need an adjustment down. It will still probably come out of fermentation at around 3.5 for you which is a nice number. Mine came in two weeks ago at 4.0.. I adjusted down to 3.55. I pressed it yesterday and now at 3.69.


----------



## pgentile

Gino Pinto's still had some grapes and juice buckets as of this past friday. LHBS still has about 20 buckets. I almost pulled the trigger on some more this weekend, but I would need more carboys and more basement space so I held off. 

It's tough though, maybe just one more bucket or two? 3-4 more lugs? 

Racked all grape Nebbiolo(supposedly old vine sangio) at 8 weeks yesterday. It is delicious already can't wait to taste this again at 1 year.

This years Zin and PS are even better. Very very happy with the wines from this fall.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Gino Pinto's still had some grapes and juice buckets as of this past friday. LHBS still has about 20 buckets. I almost pulled the trigger on some more this weekend, but I would need more carboys and more basement space so I held off.
> 
> It's tough though, maybe just one more bucket or two? 3-4 more lugs?
> 
> Racked all grape Nebbiolo(supposedly old vine sangio) at 8 weeks yesterday. It is delicious already can't wait to taste this again at 1 year.
> 
> This years Zin and PS are even better. Very very happy with the wines from this fall.



Carboys are easy, now the basement space is a whole nother issue.


----------



## porkchopmessiah

I just bought a skeeball machine, wife would prefer car boys at this point


----------



## jgmann67

Need some quick ideas. Racked the OVZ and this is what the 3 gal carboy looks like. I’d rather not rack this into gallon jugs (with a 1.5 or so to spare).


----------



## pgentile

Buy a bottle of OVZ and top it off. Other choices are headspace eliminator from AIO or marbles to take up the space.

I usually use something similar in this situation. Like if I had a some extra cab sauv or other bigger red I would top off with that. I used a commercial bottle of sauv blanc to top off my juice bucket sauv blanc just shy of 10 gallons the other day.


----------



## jgmann67

Of the choices, topping with a commercial OVZ is probably the one I’m going with.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Need some quick ideas. Racked the OVZ and this is what the 3 gal carboy looks like. I’d rather not rack this into gallon jugs (with a 1.5 or so to spare).



Got any Petite Sirah laying around?


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Of the choices, topping with a commercial OVZ is probably the one I’m going with.


You could use a bottle of the PS/Zin blend, definitely wouldn't weaken the wine any. Might add some extra puckery tannins.

Edit: @Boatboy24, we think too much alike!


----------



## jgmann67

Yep, I do. But I’m trying to leave the PS and blend alone. I will likely add some PV down the road after I bottle my 2017’s.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> ... But I’m trying to leave the PS and blend alone. ...


Every time you go down into the wine area, the bottled wines say "hey, here he comes. In unison 1, 2, 3 Drink me! Drink me! Oh please Drink me!". Happens in my basement all the time. I'm just hard of hearing so I can tune it out.


----------



## sour_grapes

Or just any ol' decent Zin.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Every time you go down into the wine area, the bottled wines say "hey, here he comes. In unison 1, 2, 3 Drink me! Drink me! Oh please Drink me!". Happens in my basement all the time. I'm just hard of hearing so I can tune it out.



Must be when I’m not wearing my hearing aids.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Must be when I’m not wearing my hearing aids.


Eh? You say somethin?


----------



## mainshipfred

Must be getting better at pressing or getting juicier grapes. Just presses the Lanza PV, 3 lugs, and ended up with just over 9 gallons. The HHH Cab Franc, 126 lbs, I pressed earlier got just under 10 gallons.


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Must be getting better at pressing or getting juicier grapes. Just presses the Lanza PV, 3 lugs, and ended up with just over 9 gallons. The HHH Cab Franc, 126 lbs, I pressed earlier got just under 10 gallons.



You probably are, but each batch and/or varietal of grapes will yield different amounts. I got different yields from the brunello, zin and petite syrah. The PS yielding the least.


----------



## mainshipfred

Been debating on using another 30l barrel. I have 7 wines over 8 gallons with the SA Cab just out after 12 1/2 weeks and a Premium Syrah in. I figure the Syrah won't come out until the end of January or beginning of February. The third batch will take me well beyond the spring harvest leaving 4 never seeing a barrel plus I'd like to get the Cab back in the barrel once it becomes more neutral. I'm actually running out of bottled wine and want to have something, even if it is young, for the Split Rock Meet Up.


----------



## porkchopmessiah

All I can say is, these are problems I'd love to have,


----------



## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Been debating on using another 30l barrel. I have 7 wines over 8 gallons with the SA Cab just out after 12 1/2 weeks and a Premium Syrah in. I figure the Syrah won't come out until the end of January or beginning of February. The third batch will take me well beyond the spring harvest leaving 4 never seeing a barrel plus I'd like to get the Cab back in the barrel once it becomes more neutral. I'm actually running out of bottled wine and want to have something, even if it is young, for the Split Rock Meet Up.



Heed the call of the barrel. Fill it. 

Think I'm going to take the pinotage out tomorrow


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Head the call of the barrel. Fill it.
> 
> Think I'm going to take the pinotage out tomorrow



Arm twisted, barrel prepped no leaks. The decision is what to put in it. Tempranillo, PS, Premium OVZ, HHH Cab Franc or Lanza PV.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> Arm twisted, barrel prepped no leaks. The decision is what to put in it. Tempranillo, PS, Premium OVZ, HHH Cab Franc or Lanza PV.



I'd argue that the H3 CF isn't ready. But that's just because I like to wait until they're clear and stable before barrel time.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I'd argue that the H3 CF isn't ready. But that's just because I like to wait until they're clear and stable before barrel time.



Neither is the PV. I also have a Touriga that I might have to add a bottle of something else to fill but I don't know much about it or the Tempranillo. So it will be a toss up between the PS and OVZ.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> I'd argue that the H3 CF isn't ready. But that's just because I like to wait until they're clear and stable before barrel time.



Hope not. Because the Franc is my choice for the prepped And waiting barrel arm twisted question.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Hope not. Because the Franc is my choice for the prepped And waiting barrel arm twisted question.



I'm thinking if I wait for it to be the second wine in I might be able to keep it in the barrel 3 months or maybe longer.


----------



## Ajmassa

Eeny meeny miny mo says tempernillo


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Eeny meeny miny mo says tempernillo



Mine landed on the Premium OVZ, could have been anyone of them.


----------



## pgentile

Pinotage came out of the barrel Saturday. Coming along very nicely. Will taste again at 12 months. Carmenere/Malbec is in the barrel now.


----------



## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Pinotage came out of the barrel Saturday. Coming along very nicely. Will taste again at 12 months. Carmenere/Malbec is in the barrel now.



So I think that's about 5 weeks in the barrel. Did it give off much oak? I have no idea how much oak Pinotage can take.


----------



## pgentile

Oak is just about right. Could have left another week or two maybe, but was happy how it tasted.


----------



## mainshipfred

Well 2018 is finally over for me. The last 2 are still going through MLF in glass. These are the PV and CF which will see the 30l barrels sometime in February or March after the premium OVZ and Syrah come out. Barreled PS yesterday after taking out the Chilean Carmenere. Super pleased with everything so far this year, my only regret is I wasn't able to get any Tannat or Norton.


----------



## Boatboy24

I don't know, Fred. Still a few weeks left. Can't you get some frozen must or something? I feel like you hardly made anything at all this year.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I don't know, Fred. Still a few weeks left. Can't you get some frozen must or something? I feel like you hardly made anything at all this year.



I know, LOL! The funny thing is, at the beginning of the season they were my 2 first choices but when Virginia sources dried up there was nowhere to go. I understand Norton but was a little suprised no one carried Tannat.


----------



## franc1969

Anyone have the final list of 2018 choices from Washington Winemakers? trying to plan ahead and decide on spring vs fall. probably an overload either way.


----------



## mainshipfred

franc1969 said:


> Anyone have the final list of 2018 choices from Washington Winemakers? trying to plan ahead and decide on spring vs fall. probably an overload either way.



Here you go!


----------



## franc1969

Thanks!


----------



## jgmann67

Thinking of doing another bucket of Chard, but the 2016 was a little lacking in complexity. Will need to think about an fpac or something.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Thinking of doing another bucket of Chard, but the 2016 was a little lacking in complexity. Will need to think about an fpac or something.



MLF? Battonage?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> MLF? Battonage?




I’d definitely do an MLF (coinoculation) and a medium toast French oak.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I’d definitely do an MLF (coinoculation) and a medium toast French oak.



Was wondering if you did either of those things on your last one. Thinking that my be a reason you were thinking it lacks complexity.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Was wondering if you did either of those things on your last one. Thinking that my be a reason you were thinking it lacks complexity.



I attempted an MLF (failed) and did some oak chips in the finish last time around. The wine was still good, but a bit monochromatic (if ya know what I mean).

But I was thinking about a cooked down peach and mango fpac in the primary.


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## mainshipfred

I know it's a bit of extra work but you should consider using multiple yeasts if you want to add complexity.


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I know it's a bit of extra work but you should consider using multiple yeasts if you want to add complexity.



While I've not done this myself, I've tasted some of Fred's wines where he split the batches and used different yeasts. In some cases, the differences in flavor profiles are remarkable.


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## ibglowin

You guys talking separate fermentations right? Not tossing multiple yeast strains into a single fermentation vessel?


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## mainshipfred

ibglowin said:


> You guys talking separate fermentations right? Not tossing multiple yeast strains into a single fermentation vessel?



Yep, ferment in smaller batches normally 3. I always ferment dry before pressing and combine at that point. On occasion I'll age them separately for a while.


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## pgentile

How is everyone's 2018 wines coming along? Itching here for grapes. 

Update from my cellar:

OVZ is in the 14 gl vessel until sept. It spent some time in the barrel. So far it's better than 2017 but not quite as good as 2016.....yet
Brunello is in the barrel, just topped off on saturday. maybe another month or when grapes and buckets are in so it's not empty.
Petite Syrah aging in vessel until sept
Pintotage will be bottle in about 6 weeks. Very happy with this one
Elderberry on OVZ skins aging until sept. This came out better than expected

Syrah, cab sauv, grenache juice buckets from Australia. The syrah and cab are just ok, the grenache less then so. Ended up blending and came up with a better wine than each on it's own. 40% cab 40% syrah and 20% grenache. 

Sauv blanc still clearing will bottle in 2 months.

Apple/pear came out very good and is slowly disappearing. 

Hope all is good with your wines and lives.


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## mainshipfred

Hey Paul, have you bottled your 2017 SA Cab yet. I don't see you mentioned that one. My Sauv Blanc is clear as a bell I'm just waiting for some bottles to come in. I did enter this as well as the Norton Blend in the Winemaker Magazine competition. Can't wait to try the Pinotage. Mine all see to be coming along although they are all going through changes constantly but no real complaints. Don't know what yet but I also plan on bottling some around the September timeframe to make room for fall.


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## Boatboy24

Chilean Carmenere/Petite Verdot is in one barrel. CA Zin in another. Waiting for their turns are the Cab Sauv and Syrah (also CA) and H3 Merlot from WA.


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## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> Chilean Carmenere/Petite Verdot is in one barrel. CA Zin in another. Waiting for their turns are the Cab Sauv and Syrah (also CA) and H3 Merlot from WA.



You didn't like the Merlot at first, how is it now


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Hey Paul, have you bottled your 2017 SA Cab yet. I don't see you mentioned that one. My Sauv Blanc is clear as a bell I'm just waiting for some bottles to come in. I did enter this as well as the Norton Blend in the Winemaker Magazine competition. Can't wait to try the Pinotage. Mine all see to be coming along although they are all going through changes constantly but no real complaints. Don't know what yet but I also plan on bottling some around the September timeframe to make room for fall.



Bottled the SA 2017 cab sauv 11 months ago. Only two bottles left. Some of the sauv blanc had barrel exposure some didn't, what didn't go in the barrel took longer to clear. You will be tasting the Pinotage. Good luck with the wine comp. I still have a bottle or your Norton blend.


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## pgentile

Boatboy24 said:


> Chilean Carmenere/Petite Verdot is in one barrel. CA Zin in another. Waiting for their turns are the Cab Sauv and Syrah (also CA) and H3 Merlot from WA.



Nice lineup, very interested in how the Carmenere/petite verdot turns out.


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## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> You didn't like the Merlot at first, how is it now



Coming along, thanks.


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## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Nice lineup, very interested in how the Carmenere/petite verdot turns out.



This is what turned me on to that blend:


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## jgmann67

Five months have passed since we’ve seen a post in this threat. 

Today I racked my OVZ and added some Cab Franc to the mix. Not a lot - a 375 ml in a 3 gal and a 750 ml in a 6 gal. I doubt it will do anything. But, a little color couldn’t hurt.


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