# I have a ?? about barrel aging



## mmadmikes1

Want to barrel age my Syrah. How long is to long to age in an oak barrel, It has a medium toast. Have never put wine in a barrel before


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## surlees

> Want to barrel age my Syrah. How long is to long to age in an oak barrel



When the wine starts tasting too oaky.

Fred


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## djrockinsteve

Mike, you need to be careful with barrels for many reasons. If not properly prepped they will leak. You need to make sure all bacteria is out and the barrel is fully clean. There are many cracks and crevaces for them to hide.

If it's a new barrel you will get an oak flavor fast. If it's used it will take longer but there is a reason why people sell used barrels. They may have lost much of their flavor or they leak ....etc. 

The size of the barrel will also dictate how long. A small barrel will give you a fast oak flavor due to it's larger percentage of barrel to wine ratio.

Best would be to read up on barrel prep and yes sample regularly to get a flavor you like.


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## ibglowin

+1 on what djrockinsteve says. Barrel prep is critical or your going to have wine weeping out for days.

If this is a new Vadai 6 gallon barrel I just got one myself this Fall. I am following a break-in procedure I found on another forum whereby you start with your first batch in for only 2 weeks and then each subsequent batch you double your time. 

So it looks something like this:

2 weeks first batch
4 weeks second batch
8 weeks third batch
16 weeks fourth batch
32 weeks fifth batch.......


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## djrockinsteve

Mike I just looked it up and the average barrel lasts 5 years for flavor.

Several wineries will age partially in a new barrel then move to older ones to rest for a year or so.

or age in a new barrel then by using the pearson square blend with the same wine never oaked aged to achieve the desired flavor.


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## mmadmikes1

thanmks Guys, gota love attacking a new part of wine making head on.


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## ibglowin

The 40L is almost 2X the volume of wine compared to the 23 liter yet the inside surface area of the 40L is not all that much more than the 23L barrel. So yea, big difference in oaking times between the 2 sizes.


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## ibglowin

Why would I put in in for only 2 weeks? 

Because its the first batch in a brand new barrel and I really don't like to drink Chateau Plywood. 

As it gets used up I can keep the wine in longer and longer and then I can realize the benefits of micro oxygenation and concentration due to evaporation but you have to start somewhere with a new barrel. 

My experience is you can always add more oak if you like but you can't take it out once its in.


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## ibglowin

Why yes, yes I do.

And its been my experience that oak doesn't necessarily fade over time and it can in fact intensify.

A little goes a long way.


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## Rock

ibglowin said:


> Why yes, yes I do.
> 
> And its been my experience that oak doesn't necessarily fade over time and it can in fact intensify.
> 
> A little goes a long way.



No way sorry have been using barrels for years and oak does not intensify.Oak will mellow over time in the bottle.I have bottled wine aged in new oak barrels that were way over powering with oak and after bottle aging for a year or so the wine was winning gold medals.I also agree that 2 weeks will do nothing to your wine.


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## ibglowin

Guess we will have to agree to disagree then as I have multiple batches not run through a barrel but oak chips in carboy that have stronger oak at 18 months than they did at 3 months or at bottling at 8 months.


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## Goodfella

I have also noticed oak mellows a little bit with time....

I agree with Ibglowings methods on this.... I have the same brand and size barrels he is talking about. And mine had the same results and time frame. There is alot of different options with new barrels. But at first you get EITHER the correct amount of oak flavor OR micro oxidation, But not both!!!

I have been pondering the idea of returning a wine that went through the barrel quick over a year ago, has been bulk aging since.... Now the barrel has mellowed... Thinking about returning it for micro oxidation for a while????


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## Goodfella

I think its possible that you notice the oak more after the WINE has mellowed. Maybe its a bit harsh and covers the oakiness for your tastes at bottling Ibglowin.

As Ibglowin stated earlier and I must agree.... These Small barrels (3-6 gallon) are a different monster. The have massive ratio's of suface area compared to wine volume.


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## WeLoveCab

We are very interested in trying barrels for ageing, however I have a large gap in understanding... The big question I have is if I'm making a 6g batch of wine, what size barrel should I use? IE: 1 6g or 2 3g or 6 1g? Is there a book that talks in detail about the oak barrel process?


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## ibglowin

Joel,

I was thinking the exact same thing on my fresh grape Cab and Merlot. The Merlot was in for the standard 2 weeks (1st batch), followed by the Cab for 4 weeks. I may not bottle these guys for close to 2 years so I have plenty of time to return to the same barrel for more concentration once it has had a few more batches run through it. I am losing 2-3 ounces a week to the "angels". Is that about in line with what you are seeing? 

Thats 2/3 a bottle in 2 months.

Makes me think I should order a 2nd Vadai here in the Spring!

@ WeLoveCab: Vadai has a 5.3 or a 6 gallon Barrel. The smallest is 2.7 gallon. I would go for the 5.3 or 6 gallon. If you go with the 5.3 you should have enough left over from a 6 gallon kit to top off for a while. I went with the 6 gallon and top off with what doesn't fit and then switch if needed to a like commercial.


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## ibglowin

It could also be a difference in extraction rates and or efficiency of Cubes vs Barrel. When you think about it, Wine has access to the entire volume of the Oak Cube (or Bean) where as in a Barrel it only gets to the inner wall. So in theory you may be able to get a whole lot more oak flavor out of a small amount of Beans than say a small Barrel.

Apples and Oranges perhaps.



Goodfella said:


> I think its possible that you notice the oak more after the WINE has mellowed. Maybe its a bit harsh and covers the oakiness for your tastes at bottling Ibglowin.
> 
> As Ibglowin stated earlier and I must agree.... These Small barrels (3-6 gallon) are a different monster. The have massive ratio's of suface area compared to wine volume.


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## AlFulchino

Joel...you want micro-ox? Flex Tanks....nothing romantic about them...but they ARE consistent....not as pretty as stainless...so put a painting in front of them 


there you go Wade...another possible advertiser


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## JohnT

AlFulchino said:


> Joel...you want micro-ox? Flex Tanks....nothing romantic about them...but they ARE consistent....not as pretty as stainless...so put a painting in front of them
> 
> 
> there you go Wade...another possible advertiser



Thanks!!! There is more to a barrel than oak! 

Three thing happen with a barrel. 

1) Oak flavor
2) micro oxidation (softening) 
3) concentration (due to evaporation) 

The main reason why they sell used barrels is that the wineries are more interested in oak flavor than the other two mojor advantages. 

If using an oak barrel you could simply scrape the inside and re-toast (rather labor intensive requiring a lot of skill) or you could just simply add oak beads to the barrel to gain all THREE benefits. 

As far as how long to age, this depends on your tastes. I can state that it is an absolute FACT that oak flavor will fade over time. I have been using the same oaking process for over 20 years and can tell you that the oak most cetainly will fade. The time it takes, however, can be several years.


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## ibglowin

John, would you be so kind as to share with us what your 20 year oaking process is?

Much thanks,



JohnT said:


> I can state that it is an absolute FACT that oak flavor will fade over time. I have been using the same oaking process for over 20 years and can tell you that the oak most cetainly will fade. The time it takes, however, can be several years.


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## Rock

I agree with John i have a 120L french oak new barrel i broke in with a cab blend.Took the wine out at 8 months,it has been siting in a 3 year old barrel for 4 months and the oak has mellowed out so much i think i might want to add some more oak.But i notice like i do with the wines i run through my barrels that it is now micro oxidizing and condensing.


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## ibglowin

In case anyone is interested on why a small 5-6 gallon barrel is more dangerous with oak than a full size barrel.

From high school geometry class, we know that the volume of a cylinder is expressed as:

Volume = PI * Radius * Radius * Height

The area of a cylinder is expressed as:

Area = 2* PI * Radius* Height

Where:

The Radius refers to the radius of the barrel.
The Height refers to the height of the barrel
PI = 3.14159265...

Now, taking the area to volume ratio of our wine barrel we get:

Area / Volume = 2 * PI * Radius * Height / PI * Radius * Radius * Height

Canceling terms, this yields the simple expression:

Area / Volume = 2 / Radius

So the surface area to volume relationship is simply two divided by the radius of the wine barrel.

Compare this relationship for various size wine barrels:

A five gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 6 inches

A sixty gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 12 inches.

Applying the formula shows that a sixty gallon wine barrel has an area to volume ratio of about half that of a five gallon oak barrel.

In other words, a small 5-6 gallon barrel will oak a wine in 1/2 the time a full size barrel will.


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## djrockinsteve

That is why wine stored in a carboy ages slower than in a bottle. More wine is exposed in a bottle than in a 5 gallon carboy.


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## Brian

ibglowin said:


> In case anyone is interested on why a small 5-6 gallon barrel is more dangerous with oak than a full size barrel.
> 
> From high school geometry class, we know that the volume of a cylinder is expressed as:
> 
> Volume = PI * Radius * Radius * Height
> 
> The area of a cylinder is expressed as:
> 
> Area = 2* PI * Radius* Height
> 
> Where:
> 
> The Radius refers to the radius of the barrel.
> The Height refers to the height of the barrel
> PI = 3.14159265...
> 
> Now, taking the area to volume ratio of our wine barrel we get:
> 
> Area / Volume = 2 * PI * Radius * Height / PI * Radius * Radius * Height
> 
> Canceling terms, this yields the simple expression:
> 
> Area / Volume = 2 / Radius
> 
> So the surface area to volume relationship is simply two divided by the radius of the wine barrel.
> 
> Compare this relationship for various size wine barrels:
> 
> A five gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 6 inches
> 
> A sixty gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 12 inches.
> 
> Applying the formula shows that a sixty gallon wine barrel has an area to volume ratio of about half that of a five gallon oak barrel.
> 
> In other words, a small 5-6 gallon barrel will oak a wine in 1/2 the time a full size barrel will.




Gee Mike after reading that my head hurts.... LOL


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## ibglowin

Please explain to me exactly what is confusing about the quoted statement......


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## Brian

nothing confusing it just reminds me of math class... LOL I made it through but man it was tough..


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## Rock

This also depends on the age of the barrel and the toast and what amount of oak your looking for.I have a 4 year old barrel that is just about neutral.Yes the smaller barrels do oak faster.Like i said it also depends on the barrels and your taste buds and the quality of the barrel.Hell lets face it i love my barrels im glad you guys do too.


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## ibglowin

So, how many 5 or 6 gallon barrels do you personally own? If the answer is as I suspect, ZERO then you have ZERO experience with this size barrel and have no idea about an actual break in period for a new one.

I actually do have a 6 gallon Vadai that I bought new this Fall. I did not pull the break in schedule for a 6 gallon Vadai out of my *** as you seem to think. I got it from a very well respected guy named Zac Brown over on Winepress. Zac has been using various sizes of Vadai barrels for years. This is the schedule he has come up with for a 6 gallon barrel with a lot of trial and error. It may be a conservative schedule but I would rather be conservative with breaking in a new barrel than ruin 6 gallons of wine.

There are no less than 23 pages of post on Winepress in the Barrels and Oaking forum. You may wish to check it out, perhaps you may learn something but I suspect probably not.

Need more proof that this is in fact a tried and trusted schedule for a small barrel? Get a copy of "Techniques in Home Winemaking" by Daniel Pambianchi. Page 332 under oak barrel aging. The author list his break in schedule for a 15 gallon barrel (over 2X the size of mine) as:

1st batch 2-3 weeks
2nd batch 1-2 months
3rd batch 2-4 months

I now have my third batch of wine in my 6 gallon Vadai. I have been following Zac's break in schedule and I like the amount of oak imparted in each one. Its there but it doesn't overpower you.

You say your just trying to help the OP, well so am I. But for one reason or another you seem to want to dismiss everything I say like I have no idea what I am talking about. 

In case you haven't noticed the poor OP checked out long ago and now so am I.








KevininPa said:


> The post of yours i quoted, you said "In other words, a small 5-6 gallon barrel will oak a wine in 1/2 the time a full size barrel will."
> Now if i am not mistaken, and a full size barrel takes a year to oak a wine, and your saying it takes 1/2 the time with a 5-6 gallon barrel. Wouldn't your statement mean it takes 6 months to oak a wine in the 5-6 gallon barrel. Not two weeks like you have been arguing. I must say all i am trying to do is be helpful to the guy that originally asked the question by adding some of my experience in hopes it helps him. It appears you want to make smart a$$ replies to people and try to get a reaction.


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## Wade E

OK guys, please chill out!!!!!!!! You are actually both right! Oak is about the most preferential part of wine making there is right about equal with sweetness. Type of oak can also be a huge difference as Hungarian is much much smoother then American so having your wine sit in an American barrel the same amount of time as a Hungarian or French and youd most likely have to let that wine sit in bottles for about 4 years to let the American oak mellow out or it could be too oaked and be used as red stain! This is a hobby fellows and I dont want what should be nice easy helpful info to turn into a verbal brawl. Thats saved for another website.


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## Wade E

You guys are both great additions to our wine making forum. I dont like nor want to go deleting or editing people or posts as thats not the way I like to run this forum. Im man enough to know when Im either not smart enough to enter into discussion debating the sciences about a subject and Im also man enough to just say what I believe and leave it as that and not say Im the one whos right, there are so many ways of getting to point "D" then the given path. Like I said above this subject is one of the most preferential parts of wine making that 20 people can have different feelings on this and all be right. I love to listen to *everyone's* opinion.


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## JohnT

Geeeeze. This is not the end of the world guys. This is just about oaking wine. Wade is right... Chill out. 

IBGLOWIN - The one thing you do not take into account is that oaking is not really a science (although your science would serve as a good rule of thumb). I do have experience with 5 gal barrels and this is what I have found... 

You run a much higher risk of oxidizing your wine than over oaking. This math can be interpreted as a very bad thing. The increased surface are to volume can also mean that there is proportionally MORE micro/macro oxidation that occures. 

You also do not take into account the rate of absorbtion (effected by the chemical makeup of the wine {varied}) and the specific characteristics of the specific wood used, exact amount of toast, amount of "pre-soaking" performed on the barrel itself, and a host of other valiables like temperature and barametric pressure changes. Another this is that tastes vary. Some like a strong oak and some do not. In short, there are no absolutes with oaking. 

I recommend that we do the same thing that most wineries do. Establish a rule of thumb, but let our toungues decide. In dealing with oak, I have found that 2 weeks is never enough time. I always age 6 - 8 weeks minimum on new wood. I like em oaky. That's just me.


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## Rock

Wade E said:


> OK guys, please chill out!!!!!!!! You are actually both right! Oak is about the most preferential part of wine making there is right about equal with sweetness. Type of oak can also be a huge difference as Hungarian is much much smoother then American so having your wine sit in an American barrel the same amount of time as a Hungarian or French and youd most likely have to let that wine sit in bottles for about 4 years to let the American oak mellow out or it could be too oaked and be used as red stain! This is a hobby fellows and I dont want what should be nice easy helpful info to turn into a verbal brawl. Thats saved for another website.



Ok Wade i guess i will have to send you a bottle of my american oaked wine im bottling soon.Better than my french oaked,but i guess this is the great thing about oaking your wines with a barrel.Everybody has their opinion.I have never gone by others barrel break in methods but only my own taste.


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## Wade E

That's the answer right there, to each's taste.


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