# Dummy Question



## MedPretzel

I have a really newbie quesiton to ask, but since I don't make usual wines, I've never felt the need to use oak in my wines.





What exactly does Oak do to a wine? It gives it an "oaky" flavor is what I gathered, like it has been aged in a barrel, but I'm not sure if I have ever in my life tasted oak in a wine. If I did, I thought it was a natural part of the wine, I guess.





So, would my country wines profit/benefit from oaking? I mean, I don't imagine you can say something about a sage wine, I understand, but could someone explain to a person who has no idea the general jist of the oaking your wines, and the results? Sorry if this is a topic that is huge. I'm just not sure if oaking would help or hurt my wines at this point.


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## masta

I recently bottle my first two batches of red wine that I added oak to with Stavin oak beans. It is hard to explain the actual taste...but I think it is more of what it adds to the wine in making it smoother and more complex. It added anoak background flavor but also more depth to the wine and also mellowed it out.


Sorry I can't explain it better...these might also help:


http://winemakermag.com/departments/78.html


http://www.robertmondavi.com/WineFacts/oakBarrel.asp*Edited by: masta *


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## AAASTINKIE

the only question that's dumb is the question that isn't asked...


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## MedPretzel

You speak from my heart, Stinkie. That is my motto....


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## Hippie

Martina, you will only ever know if you experiment. Start with 1 oz. untoasted French oak in 5 gallons wine for 1 month of bulk aging and taste before and after and write down tasting notes. The wine should be clear and stable and otherwise ready to bottle. Alternatively, use a handful of untoasted French chips in the fermentation for a completely different and more subtle oak character. I do both, if at all. *Edited by: Country Wine *


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## MedPretzel

Thanks, Glenvall. I might jsut do that some day. But the question is, does oak go with mum wine? marigold? sage? rose-hip?


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## Hippie

Who knows? Experiment. Otherwise, we will probably never know. One thang is for sure, after you try the untoasted French oak, you will know if you might wanna try toasted or stronger varieties of oak like Hungarian or American.*Edited by: Country Wine *


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## MedPretzel

Wow, that's a lot of oak... 


I might just try it soon.  Thanks for the advice.


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## Hippie

Actually 3 oz. oak beansfor 3 months in 5 gallons of wine is about the norm for bulk aging, tasting every 2-3 weeks after 1 month.


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## MedPretzel

Oh. Well, I have no idea what I'm talking about here. (Sorry) 


But that's like me in the rest of the forum!!! HAhahahaha!


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## Hippie

All the more reason you should be experimenting with other styles of wines.


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## MedPretzel

I know, I know... It's just to me, country wines are more fun than kit ones. That's just me, though.


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## Maui Joe

That's okay Martina, we don' have mums, sage and the sort. I would only learn that from you.


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## MedPretzel

Well, I can only suggest you make some sort of flower-petal wine. It's very interesting, and you probably can't find stuff like that in the store.





I am currently making a hibiscus wine which smells just wonderful. I am sure you can get plenty of those in your neck of the woods (or beach?)!!!


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## Maui Joe

I worry about the fertilizers and sprays that are used on them. I would think that the systemic chemicals that people use are also retained in the flowers as well.


What partsof the Hibiscus flower do you use, as well as roses? We have some awesome roses, gardenias, etc. I red-flag flowers that contain milk, like Plumerias and that sort.


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## MedPretzel

Well, Joe, you certainly can use the petals of the hibiscus flower. You are right when you talk about the pesticides that are used, but I wouldn't be too worried about fertilizers. They are mostly natural substances which help the flower to grow -- nothing chemically poisonous to the flower itself. I'd be worried about the pesticides/sprays though. Basically pesticide is just nerve gas, and I would be leery about that.


Roses: you can use the petals themselves (I have never done that, but it supposedly gives a wonderful smelling wine), or you can use the hips - rose-hips are when you don't deadhead the rose itself and let the "fruit" grow. Here on the mainland, they are usually ripe about middle of october. They turn orange/red at that time, and you know they are ripe when they achieve that color. 





I am not sure if gardenias are edible, however. Check with your local extension agency (they are a wealth of information) about that. I have also used marigolds (not sure if you have them down there), but you also might want to see if Bougainvillea is edible. I'm not sure about that, but the flowers are just so beautiful.





I can check for you tomorrow if you need any more information.


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## Maui Joe

"Nerve gas," no wonder my wife uses that word..."whatta nerve" I must have inhaled some earlier in life .....now it's catching up on me!


I'm not sure if I am ready for "flower-power" yet. Oh I can't touch her roses, that would really be the end...she always clips them for a vase...poor plant, it will never see a "rose hip."


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## Hippie

Martina, I wasn't suggesting you make kit wines for the oaking, maybe use it in your scratch wines, whatever the type. Chardonnay is not the only usuallyoaked white wine, it is the only white wine that most folks know is usuallyoaked.


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## Maui Joe

If oak barrels from the past could only talk, many would be surprised.


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## Hippie

How right you are Joe. I still have trouble detecting oak in some wines when I taste, but my nose can make it out usually.


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## Berrywine

so country am i right in assuming, from what you said in an earlier post, that the french oak is milder than american oak? just trying to learn a little more about it. i am in the dummy class on this subject.


berry*Edited by: Berrywine *


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## Hippie

Yes, Berry. French oak is more subtle, then Hungarian, and American is more harsh, especially the heavy toast. 


George, did you ever find any untoasted French oak?


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## Berrywine

thanks cw,that helps


berry


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## Vaughn

I have 2 questions on this topic...


1. I have done 2 kits so far. The Cabernet came with oak chips, the Pinot Noir did not. Why the difference? Is this just traditional ways of preparing these two wines?


2. My instructions say that if I intend to age my wine longer than 6 months, I need to add more sulfite. Can someone tell me definitively that if I prepare my kit as is, will I be opening a bottle of vinegar if I let it age longer than 6 months? 


Oh, and another thing. If I do opt to add sulfites, It calls to disolve the tablets in water beforeI add it to my wine. I don't like the idea of adding more water to my wine. Can I thief some wine out and disolve it in that?


Dogbert says, "If there is no such thing as a dumb questions, then what kind of questions do dumb people ask?"


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## masta

Pinot Noir is a lighter and fruiter wine with much less tannins than a Cab and therefore I believe the manufacture choose not to oak it. 


If you age the wine properly it should be no problem to age it past the 6 months with no added sulfites.


The only way to really know how much sulfites are in the finished wine is to test it and then adjust it accordingly.


The small amount of water that is needed to dissolve a campden tablet will have no effect on a 6 gallon batch.


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## Goslin

MedPretzle, since it was brought up, I have a question for you.

I think I have LOTS of hibiscus but am not really sure. In late season
do they have seed pods that open and drop the seeds? I had some
pictures but can't find them now. Any way what ever I have grows like
weeds and I just mow down the small plants. Sound familiar?



Rick


*Edited by: Goslin *


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## Vaughn

Masta,


Okay, that helps. 


Let's say I test for sulfites and go through all that to make sure I have the proper amount to age...yada, yada. Is it beneficial to have as low a level of sulfites as possible? Again, according to instructions, the added sulfites do not affect the wine's taste. If I don't have a sulfite alergy, would it not be prudent to make the addition, to be on the safe side?


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## masta

Sorry I missed this question.....Yes it would be prudent to make the addition of added sulfites to bring it to the proper level as indicated in the instructions.Protecting your wine is critical for aging long term.


I believe even with making this addition the sulfite level will be much lower than most commercial wines. I need to buy a few bottles and test to confirm this.....buy wine from the store...man I hate that!






Look for an article on sulfites in the upcoming newsletter for a fairly detail explanation of sulfites in wine making. I am hoping this will help to educate all of us...I know I have learned lots writing it.


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## Vaughn

Thanks Masta for the help. I also stopped by George's place on Saturday and got some insight on the matter. I ended up purchasing some sulfite additive and I just mixed it into my Pinot Noir last night at the de-gassing stage. 


Wow! I'm learning a lot of practical chemistry here. Next, we'll tackle the Ph issue when creating fruit wines and meads.


I have to tell you guys an interesting thing that happened this weekend. I have been remodeling my 40 year old home in my spare time and Saturday night I was working on a small set of stairs that lead from my entry way to the first landing (about 6 steps). I plan to pull up the carpet that is on them and replace it with some nice stained wood. So, as I'm pulling up carpet, I notice that the top step is loose. Upon closer inspection, I found that the top two steps were part of a hinged unit that swung up to give access to the dead space below the stairs. There's even a light in it. We had no idea that this storage space even existed! And we've been living in this house for 3 years! 


Ladies and gentlemen, our wine storage problems are over. We have a wine cellar.


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## PolishWineP

Oh Happy Day!



What a great find! Like Christmas in April!


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## geocorn

I can not find any untoasted oak of any kind. Seems only toasted oak is used in wine making by almost everyone.


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## Hippie

Ok then George, so the house toast french oak is the lightest toast?


Thanks.


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## geocorn

The lighest toast is the medium, then the house, then the heavy.


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## Berrywine

I've oaked one batch of blackberry, left it in 2 months in bulk, made it pretty "oaky", so I pulled it out and bottled. Now 6 months later I opened a bottle and can't tell I even oaked it. Does the oak fade that quickly or is it that I just didn't leave it long enough?






berry


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## jshuey

Long term bulk aging is one of the time honored methods for treating "over-oaked" wines. That said, six months is a kinda quick time frame for oakiness to fadeas much as you describe.


What form of oak did you use? How much oak in what quantity of wine?


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## Berrywine

I used "house toast american white oak", as the package says. Followed instructions for 5 grams per gal., 25 grams for my 5 gal. Left it in 2 months.


berry


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## jshuey

Berry...


Two things come to mind. First, I'm not sure not tasting oak is a bad thing. (See my last paragraph.)


Second, my "read is this: The dosage and time indications on packages oak are generally geared toward grape wine which, because of the seeds and the fact it is often fermented with stems, starts out with a bit more tannin than most fruit wines.


I only make wine from grapes, but I take the time indication on the package not as a maximum time, but as a good time to begin tasting. And I generally keep the cubes in until my wine starts to taste as though its been a bit overoaked, because I know its going to spend another year or more in the bottle beforeI start to consume it. 


At that point (12 to 24 months after bottling), there should be no "oak" taste at all, but a pleasant, subduedvanillin flavor well integrated with all the others that make wine so special. 
*Edited by: jshuey *


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## Berrywine

I should have read up on it a good bit more before I jumped in. I understand the part about not tasting the oak, I was suprised how much it "mellowed" into the wine in such a short time, which leads me to believe that I didn't leave it in long enough. Next batch that is oaked will get a longer "chip" time. It's all an experiment! thanks jshuey.


berry


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## Hippie

Berry, I think next time you should try whatever type of oak chips in the must, then when you rack to glass, use the oak cubes of your choice. George has a variety to choose from. 3 ounces of the cubes for 3 months total contact time is their limit, but you can do 1 ounce for 1 month or anything in between. The cubes will release the oak flavors and subtle nuances slowly and with better true barrel character. I think you will like them.


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## Berrywine

Now I think I'll try that! A friend of mine gave me about 7 pounds of tame blackberries out of his freezer over the holiday weekend after I brought out a bottle of home made blackberry wine. I think everybody liked it... I know he did.It'll be a small batch but what the heck. Sounds like a good opportunity to try your oak process. I learn more every batch I make. Thanks Country.






berry


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## RAMROD

How much difference is there between tame and wild black berrys?


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## Berrywine

This is the first batch I've made with tame berries that I know where they came from.The only difference I can tell so far is the color is a bit lighter, but it is still in the early stages. The other batches have been frozen berries from the market. Only thing about those are, you don't know what kind they are or where they come from.







berry*Edited by: Berrywine *


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## Hippie

I think the wild berries make much better wine, as long as they are picked very ripe. The most important quality is ripeness, no matter what type.


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## RAMROD

Dose anyone add sugar to the bag before they freeze them?


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## Hippie

Nope. Just rinse off and freeze.


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