# Demijohn vs Carboy



## drainsurgeon (Sep 18, 2016)

To not hijack another thread, I'll start a new one. I just learned that a demijohn and carboy are NOT the same. For some reason I thought that a demijohn was just a European term for carboy. Evidently it is not. I guess they are thinner. So, I have a few questions:

1) They are thinner and I have been warned about putting a vacuum on them. Can I use my allinone pump to splash rack safely?

2) Just how thin are they and should I avoid them? Are they a common product in the USA?

3) I've started picking up extra carboys from Craigslist. How do I identify a demijohn from a carboy? (they must be lighter?)


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## Julie (Sep 18, 2016)

they are shaped differently. Google demi john and carboy and you will see the difference


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## Rocky (Sep 18, 2016)

I believe that our friends in the UK refer to just about any wine vessel as a demijohn, from a 1 gallon jug to a 6 gallon carboy. Here in the colonies, we term as a demijohn the 15 (or so) gallon, pear shaped vessel usually enclosed in either wicker or a plastic basket. The glass is thinner and vacuum racking into a demijohn is discouraged. You could, however, use a transfer pump safely. The All-in-One pump is a vacuum pump. I like them for larger batches but I have to be careful how I use them. I have two 15 or so gallon vessels, one is definitely a demijohn and the other is some kind of large lab vessel. I can use my vacuum pump to pump OUT of the demijohn but not INTO it. What is do is keep them on furniture dollies and use gravity (auto siphon) to rack into them and my pump to pump out of them.

Here are some pictures showing my large vessels, an assortment of carboys and carboys in a drying rack:


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 18, 2016)

Well, after some reading both on Google and here, I have decided to avoid a demijohn purchase for a couple of reasons. Although I could find no hard evidence of the thin glass of a demijohn, there is enough reading right here to convince me that they ARE much thinner. People HAVE imploded them. And the most common size, it sounds like, is 15 gallons!. I have a 20 gallon Brute if I want to ferment a big batch. As far as identifying them, they are pear shaped and someone on a thread here said the 15 gallon demijohn weighs the same as a 3 gallon carboy. That should be easy to spot by just lifting. The demijohn did originate in Europe in the late 1700s. Nothing more than a cheap, metric, carboy! 


Nice wine cellar Rocky!


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## Johnd (Sep 18, 2016)

I use them for storing batches larger than 6 gallons.


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## mennyg19 (Sep 19, 2016)

I use demijohns as I cant get carboys here in Israel. I also rack with a siphon tube and sucking (pretty cool the way it works). I do think there is a pro thought to demijohns:
If you don't have enough to top off all the way to the neck, there still wont be as much oxidizing as a carboy, as the shape of a demijohn gets narrower throughout the the height. So there is less wine touching air.
As opposed to a carboy where if you dont top up to the neck, the entire width of the carboy will be touching air...


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 19, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> I use demijohns as I cant get carboys here in Israel. I also rack with a siphon tube and sucking (pretty cool the way it works). I do think there is a pro thought to demijohns:
> If you don't have enough to top off all the way to the neck, there still wont be as much oxidizing as a carboy, as the shape of a demijohn gets narrower throughout the the height. So there is less wine touching air.
> As opposed to a carboy where if you dont top up to the neck, the entire width of the carboy will be touching air...



Good point Menny.....but.....I just don't like the idea of having deal with or move a 15 gallon vessel (of thin glass) full of wine. I'll stick with my 5-6-6 1/2 gallon carboy's. I've got plenty of wine in the cellar to keep em topped off.


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## JohnT (Sep 19, 2016)

I have dozens of them. They come with protective basket and cover so the chance of breaking one is not as big as you think. I have not broken one in 10 years.

the great thing about 54 liter johns is that they are a better use of space and cleaning one john is easier than cleaning 3 carboys. 

I vacuum pump in and out of them all the time. Not a problem.


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 19, 2016)

JohnT said:


> I have dozens of them. They come with protective basket and cover so the chance of breaking one is not as big as you think. I have not broken one in 10 years.
> 
> the great thing about 54 liter johns is that they are a better use of space and cleaning one john is easier than cleaning 3 carboys.
> 
> I vacuum pump in and out of them all the time. Not a problem.



Man, I would like to see your winery. It must be something!

Do you use the allinone to pump into? Do you do anything special?


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## Stevelaz (Sep 19, 2016)

JohnT or anyone else who uses the 54 liter demijons:

Im using one for the first time. Can i do cold stabilization in it or is it too thin for the Chicago cold. I was thinking of trying the cold stabilization this winter on my Chilean Merlot i started in April. Will be putting it in garage... Thanks


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## Troll (Sep 19, 2016)

I had some 7.5's and full you don't want to move them. Consider weight when buying. If you have a transfer pump to relocate it might be worth while and probably saves space but multiple 5's are movable and good for smaller batches.


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## vacuumpumpman (Sep 19, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Man, I would like to see your winery. It must be something!
> 
> Do you use the allinone to pump into? Do you do anything special?



I can not endorse vacuum transferring into a demijohn - but others have bought my splash racking cane with a 1/2'' transfer ID - so it will move more volume of wine rather than increasing the vacuum inside the carboy. 

I hope this helps ?


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## Brub58 (Sep 19, 2016)

An enolmatic comes with fitting specifically for racking into demijohns. I wouldn't pull a vacuum on a sealed demijohn, but vacuum racking should be fine. I've got about 8 demijohns and use the enolmatic for all my racking.


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 19, 2016)

Brub58 said:


> An enolmatic comes with fitting specifically for racking into demijohns. I wouldn't pull a vacuum on a sealed demijohn, but vacuum racking should be fine. I've got about 8 demijohns and use the enolmatic for all my racking.



OK, ya stumped me. What is an enolmatic? Even Google went..HuH??


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## vacuumpumpman (Sep 19, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> OK, ya stumped me. What is an enolmatic? Even Google went..HuH??



here is the link to it -

https://morewinemaking.com/products...RG-KnxRofoW6dRvZYkV5L440NoB-CjiiwexoCQpbw_wcB


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## Brub58 (Sep 19, 2016)

An enolmatic is an Italian allinone. Don't know why you couldn't find it - it's even available from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OIJUO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 19, 2016)

Brub58 said:


> An enolmatic is an Italian allinone. Don't know why you couldn't find it - it's even available from Amazon.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OIJUO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



OOFTA, pricey little buggers. Makes the allinone look like a bargin!

Ya, I don't know why nothing came up on a Google search. I double checked my spelling and it was correct. Thanks for the link.


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## vacuumpumpman (Sep 19, 2016)

Brub58 said:


> An enolmatic is an Italian allinone. Don't know why you couldn't find it - it's even available from Amazon.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OIJUO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Yes but the Allinonewinepump does alot more than just bottle at that price !


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## mennyg19 (Sep 20, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Good point Menny.....but.....I just don't like the idea of having deal with or move a 15 gallon vessel (of thin glass) full of wine. I'll stick with my 5-6-6 1/2 gallon carboy's. I've got plenty of wine in the cellar to keep em topped off.



I dont know why you keep mentioning 15 gallons, i have demijohns that are 5 liters, 10L, 15L, 20L and 25L.
I had one break when a worker in my apt dropped a hammer from 10 feet up onto it...

Some pics as proof: 
5 Liter date Mead



Racking my Petit Syrah out of a 15 into an unseen 10L (too much headspace and initial sediment/lees):



Dragon Blood in a 25L:



That was too much headspace so I racked into a 20L demijohn which I topped off:


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## JohnT (Sep 20, 2016)

I had purchased enolmatic bottle fillers about 15 years ago. This was WAY before I know about the all-in-one. This filler has a vacuum pump much like the all-in-one and I use it every time a rack a demijohn. 

I do not, though, recommend that you use anything like a "headspace-eliminator" on it. 

They really are much more durable than you would think. With a little care, a demijohn is just as reliable as a carboy, only cheaper, more compact, and much less work to maintain. 

As far as cold stabilization, you should be just fine as long as the wine does not freeze solid and you have very limited head space.


Menny: Most of the supply stores sell either 5 gallon carboys or 54 liter demijohns. Other sizes (at least around where I live) are an oddity.


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## mennyg19 (Sep 20, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Menny: Most of the supply stores sell either 5 gallon carboys or 54 liter demijohns. Other sizes (at least around where I live) are an oddity.




Interesting, all they have in the stores around here are demis. No carboys...


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## drainsurgeon (Sep 20, 2016)

JohnT said:


> I had purchased enolmatic bottle fillers about 15 years ago. This was WAY before I know about the all-in-one. This filler has a vacuum pump much like the all-in-one and I use it every time a rack a demijohn.
> 
> I do not, though, recommend that you use anything like a "headspace-eliminator" on it.
> 
> ...



I don't know about cheaper. Go look at them on Ebay or Craigslist. The 14 gallon (54L) Demijohn's go for $80-$200. Plus shipping! And you have dozens of them? You've got a little gold mine there JohnT


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## JohnT (Sep 20, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> I don't know about cheaper. Go look at them on Ebay or Craigslist. The 14 gallon (54L) Demijohn's go for $80-$200. Plus shipping! And you have dozens of them? You've got a little gold mine there JohnT


 
I pick mine up from my local supplier. When I bought them they were 4 for $100.00. Obviously, the price has gone up but they are still cheaper than the cost of 2.5 5-gallon carboys (from a volume/cost perspective).


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## Rocky (Sep 20, 2016)

Yes, JohnT, prices have gone up substantially. As I have pointed out, I have been "involved" (meaning stripping grapes and leaves from bunches at 8 years if age) in winemaking for many, many years (about 66!) and I have seen some real price increases. Here are a couple just for fun:

For example, I remember when:

1. a 5 gallon carboy was $5! (or $.50 if you sacrificed the deposit on the water bottle from your office water cooler)
2. a 42 pound lug of grapes from California was $.75 in Pittsburgh, PA!
3. a 53 gallon whiskey barrel fresh from the distillery (Schenley) was $5! (and it probably had that much whiskey still in it)
4. new wine barrels were roughly "a dollar a gallon" i.e. a 20 gallon barrel cost $20!
5. 1 gallon jugs were $1.

HOWEVER, I also remember when a small tube of Sodium Metabisulfite (maybe a tablespoonful) cost $4.75 in 1960's. Sometimes I wish I had the money I have now, back then. However, I am really fortunate that I do not have the money I had then, now. I would not have enough to be living in poverty.


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## JohnT (Sep 20, 2016)

What is really funny is that I sold off a couple dozen and converted to 300 liter tanks. I remember being overjoyed to find someone that was willing to pay me the price I paid when they were new. I giggled thinking that I got 10 or 15 years of use out of them and then sold them for what I paid. 

I was happy to get my money back and the buyer was happy to get a great deal. The perfect trade... Everyone walks away happy.


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## Darleeka (Oct 11, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Well, after some reading both on Google and here, I have decided to avoid a demijohn purchase for a couple of reasons. Although I could find no hard evidence of the thin glass of a demijohn, there is enough reading right here to convince me that they ARE much thinner. People HAVE imploded them. And the most common size, it sounds like, is 15 gallons!. I have a 20 gallon Brute if I want to ferment a big batch. As far as identifying them, they are pear shaped and someone on a thread here said the 15 gallon demijohn weighs the same as a 3 gallon carboy. That should be easy to spot by just lifting. The demijohn did originate in Europe in the late 1700s. Nothing more than a cheap, metric, carboy!
> 
> Nice wine cellar Rocky!



I used to make a lot of elderberry wine 20 odd years ago and used 1gallon demijohns. The glass was very thick and they weren't cheap... I've never seen one bigger than a gallon and thought that's what a carboy was so pretty confused lol I was living in England when making the elderberry but now home in Ireland and the demijohns I bought here ARE thinner and cheaper.


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