# Last grapes of the year...



## crushday

I just placed my order at WineGrapesDirect for the last grapes of the year (pick up October 31st):

1. 4 2019 pails of Rattlesnake Hills Petit Verdot (*Brix: 25, pH:3.15, TA: .81)*
2. 4 2018 pails of Lodi Zinfandel (*Brix: 23.6, pH:3.75, TA: .75*)
3. 4 2018 pails of Lodi Carnignan (*Brix: 22.4, pH:3.76, TA: .57*)
4. 7 2019 pails of Dundee Pinot Noir from Willamette Valley (*Brix: 23.5, pH: 3.7, TA: 5.75)*
5. 7 2020 pails of Knights Valley Petite Sirah from Sonoma (*Brix: 28.3, pH: 3.27, TA: 8.49)*
6. 7 2020 pails of Knights Valley Cabernet Sauvignon from Sonoma (*Brix: 27.9, pH: 3.64, TA: 6.11)*

My first goal is to keep free run and press run separate. And, given the time of year (high was 52 today) I'm planning on a slower ferment. I'm hoping to keep my ferments in the low 80's and I can heat my garage.

I'm also planning the following blends, in addition to 100% varietal in 23L and 50L barrels:

75% Petite Sirah, 18% Zinfandel, 7% Petit Verdot
40% Zinfandel, 40% Carnignan, 20% Petite Sirah

I'm planning on using Avante yeast for all except the Pinot Noir. Undecided on the PN and open to suggestions. I would like it fruit forward and lightly oaked.


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## NorCal

Wow, I’m looking at the calendar to do the post mlf racking and you are still going strong with new ferments! Looks like some good grapes from some good areas, hopefully the quality is good.


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## CDrew

Glad you brought this up, as I am thinking of ordering some Sauvignon Blanc from wine grapes direct, since that never worked out this year given my schedule and the early ripening.


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## crushday

@CDrew - I would wholeheartedly recommend Wine Grapes Direct. Owners Michael and Andrew Crews do a great job.


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## Ajmassa

Uhhhhh. Well this sounds pretty awesome! @crushday your quantity (and quality) is hella impressive. Seems like you are cranking out another batch of high quality ferments every few weeks!— with endless bulk wines on the shelf at just about every stage of the process I’d assume.

Do you ever feel overwhelmed tending to and staying on top of everything? Seems like could be a full time job often. Or to put it another way- with so much output do some of your wines end up just becoming a number? Without sounding too corny- there’s a certain level of sentimental value I end up with on my wines.

I’m only making a couple of wines per season but I get to devote all my energy into them. From the lead-up into the season and deciding on what varietals/volume/how much $/where to source/ what techniques to utilize—- to over the course of the next few months when they are put to bed and deciding on aging/oak etc. late tweaks/blending decisions/cold crashing/deciding when to bottle/naming it/making labels etc etc. I can become quite attached to my babies with all the time & TLC invested. But then I get to do it all over again the next season (for me it’s bi-annual, I do spring & fall). And even still it can be difficult to dedicate the proper attention. 
And it’s not as if you’re sacrificing quality for quantity either— ALL your wines seem to be on the higher end of the home winemaking quality spectrum. so i guess my real question is, do you ever feel like your fast pace voids that corny personal attachment I’ve described? And if not- amidst all the wine being cared for, and working full time and *keeping the woman happy*—then what’s your damn secret?! If I went that hard I’m certain I’d be headin to the big D (and I don’t mean Dallas!)

Good luck on these wines. Some damn good ones in there.


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## sour_grapes

@crushday 's motto: "Go big or go home!" 

I agree, a very impressive effort.


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## Ajmassa

And btw @crushday - I will join in on your topic. I’m picking up the last grapes of the season over here as well. My Wash St Red Mt. cab. Harvested last weekend and ready for pickup. Goin over in a few hours. Utilizing C/D services for the 1st time too. new supplier (for me) and they are attached to a winery. 
This also means I’ll be able to obtain a full panel lab test. If not already provided I’ll leave a sample and get that elusive YAN # finally!


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## E-man

Wow, very impressive on the grapes and quantity for this late in the season after, I'm assuming, the prior batches from fresh grapes. Just curious if your TA numbers are correct for batches #4, 5 and 6 as those seem way high. Am I missing something with those readings?


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## crushday

Ajmassa said:


> Do you ever feel like your fast pace voids that corny personal attachment I’ve described? And if not- amidst all the wine being cared for, and working full time and *keeping the woman happy*—then what’s your damn secret?! If I went that hard I’m certain I’d be headin to the big D (and I don’t mean Dallas!)


AJ, you make smile...and I appreciate your self described personal attachment; and I share your SDPA in the way any artist is attached emotionally to their work. 

In all candor, I started making wine in 2015 with a goal of making wine as good or better than the wine I can buy. Although I'm no where close to that goal (yet), there's only one way I can think of to narrow the gap - gain experience with frequency.

People, like you, have been incredibly instrumental in this journey. Mrs. Crushday never bats an eye and helps when I need her to punch down if I'm traveling or when we bottle. She's pretty good at operating the Italian corker...

More to follow.


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## crushday

sour_grapes said:


> @crushday 's motto: "Go big or go home!"
> 
> I agree, a very impressive effort.


@sour_grapes - I'm going after the Grand Durif with that Petite Sirah from Knights Valley! Time will tell!!


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## crushday

E-man said:


> Wow, very impressive on the grapes and quantity for this late in the season after, I'm assuming, the prior batches from fresh grapes. Just curious if your TA numbers are correct for batches #4, 5 and 6 as those seem way high. Am I missing something with those readings?


I'm not sure and I didn't even notice that. I simply pulled the numbers from the WGD website. I'll check with Mikey and Andrew.

BTW - you look to be from the PNW - it's a large geographic area - can you narrow it down? Maybe we're neighbors...


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## crushday

I texted Mikey Crews from WGD and this is what he says:

”TA can be expressed as grams per liter or as %. The top 3 are expressed as g/l and the bottom 3 are expressed as %. I’ll update the website so that we express them all as grams per liter as that seems to be what most people are doing now and is confusing for us to use two different formats for TA.. The numbers are all from crush pad samples so typically pH will go up a little bit from soaking up potassium from skins but TA should be about right. The Knights Valley does have a surprising amount of acidity for how high the sugar is.”


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## CDrew

So I finally got a chance to look at the numbers. The Petite Sirah sounds like a monster. Are you going to water back a bit? Maybe to 25 or so? The numbers almost don't look right as the acid is still very high despite the ripeness indicated by the brix.

And also by the numbers, (7 pails is 35 gallons, x 3) + (4 pails is 20 gallons x 3) = 6 large volume ferments at the same time? You are going to be extremely busy. Sounds fun, enjoy.

And regarding the Pinot Noir yeast-there is a Renaissance yeast specifically for Pinot Noir- Brio. You could try that and get the same advantages you get with Avante.


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## crushday

Watering back the Petite Sirah and the Cab from Knights is on the consideration tree. Mikey, from WGD says this: "The Knights Valley does have a surprising amount of acidity for how high the sugar is.”

I'll take my own measurements after thaw and before I pitch yeast to see what's what. 

Can you commend a site with a calculator. The one I found seems inaccurate or I don't know how to use it.

You can see form the attached screenshot, I cannot imagine adding 975 gallons to get the gravity to a reasonable level.


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## stickman

That calculator will work, just change the target brix to 25 or 24.5 etc. rather than a specific gravity. FermCalc gives the same result as above in their Chaptalization and Dilution Calculator, if you enter 25 brix for the target both calculators indicate 4.7 gal of water required.


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## crushday

stickman said:


> That calculator will work, just change the desired brix to 25 or 24.5 etc. rather than a specific gravity.



It seems my inability to read and comprehend nuance is in full view...lol

Thanks @stickman !!!


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## CDrew

I've only watered back once, so consider my inexperience, but I found it pretty easy. Fermcalc will easily run the numbers for you. I converted gallons needed to liters and then the tartaric addition is easy. You'll want 6-7 g/L of tartaric acid. So once you know the liters, multiply by 6 and make up your addition. I did that and then added 1/2 to the must just to remeasure and make sure it eyeballed ok. Once re-assured, I added the rest. Yours just needs to bump down a bit-to say 25 and then you're good to go.


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## crushday

@CDrew and/or @stickman - is the recommendation to use distilled water?


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## stickman

I have a reverse osmosis system, so that's typically what I use for watering back; distilled would be fine also.


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## CDrew

I used "spring water" from the store. I read in MoreWine's guide that the minerals present have a role to play and that's why I went that direction. Plus I thought it would not have chlorine in it. I'll bet it doesn't really matter.


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## Ajmassa

Morewine guide says filtered. I just recently used tap to do this, tho I have zero concerns.


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## crushday

It's clear that the Petite Sirah has a high gravity and high acid rate. To get the Brix to 25, requires 5.18 gallons of water. This will also raise the pH, right? - which is too low right now. However, the pH might come up from maceration and likely raise a few more clicks during malolactic fermentation, which I intend to co-innoculate (CH16).

_Brix: 28.3, pH: 3.27, TA: 8.49_

Other than add water, what else would you do?


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## Johnd

crushday said:


> It's clear that the Petite Sirah has a high gravity and high acid rate. To get the Brix to 25, requires 5.18 gallons of water. This will also raise the pH, right? - which is too low right now. However, the pH might come up from maceration and likely raise a few more clicks during malolactic fermentation, which I intend to co-innoculate (CH16).
> 
> _Brix: 28.3, pH: 3.27, TA: 8.49_
> 
> Other than add water, what else would you do?


Personally, I'd just do the water, but only enough to drop it to 26.5 or 27, PS is a big wine that can handle the alcohol. See where your pH ends up after the addition, if it's 3.3 or higher, let it ride, co inoculate and roll to the end. You'll lose some acid during AF and MLF, the pH will come up for you. It's a bit of a blessing to have some acid in such a high BRIX wine, it'll help it last long enough to get good.


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## crushday

Johnd said:


> Personally, I'd just do the water, but only enough to drop it to 26.5 or 27, PS is a big wine that can handle the alcohol. See where your pH ends up after the addition, if it's 3.3 or higher, let it ride, co inoculate and roll to the end. You'll lose some acid during AF and MLF, the pH will come up for you. It's a bit of a blessing to have some acid in such a high BRIX wine, it'll help it last long enough to get good.


Very good suggestion and one I will likely follow until conditions dictate otherwise. Thanks John!


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## crushday

Using PBW on all fermenters used for this current project!


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## crushday

Drove to Portland yesterday morning to pick up the buckets. This morning, they were mostly thawed.

Here are the carcasses...


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## Rocktop

Wow, that must be at least $3k worth of grapes, hope you have found a way to monetize the hobby to recoup some of the costs....


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## crushday

Rocktop said:


> Wow, that must be at least $3k worth of grapes, hope you have found a way to monetize the hobby to recoup some of the costs....


Not including glass, corks or labels I’ll be able to make this wine for $6.62 a bottle as long as I can get average yield. This is high quality wine for a fraction of the commercial cost.

I plan on giving most of this away. Being generous is a very high value. It guides almost every decision I make. That’s really meaningful for me and Mrs. Crushday...


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## crushday

EX-V added to all this morning. The Petite Sirah is looking so inky already. I’ll be pitching the yeast on Wednesday or Thursday depending on must temperature.

Here’s the Durif a few minutes ago...


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## CDrew

That's very cool. You've had quite a year.

I agree that Winegrapesdirect is a good outfit. They are shipping my white wine grapes this Wednesday. Very good communication. Assuming next year is similar to this one, I may make a Portland Road Trip and get more white wine grapes. I hate paying shipping and I'd much rather get a road trip out of it!


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## Rocktop

Hats off Crushday, an incredible gift indeed. You will have an amazing cellar!

RT


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## crushday

I’m planning on co-inoculating CH16 tomorrow - I have Acti-ML. Right now I’m inclined to add the malolactic nutrient after I press but need some direction. I’ve added the following adjuncts to each ferment: EX-V, Opti-Red, Yeast/GoFerm, Tannin FT Rouge, 130gm TA (Cabernet Sauv only). I’m hesitant to add anymore to this wine right now...

Any direction? This will be the first time I’ve added a malo nutrient. All my previous lactic conversions finished without fail.


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## Ajmassa

crushday said:


> I’m planning on co-inoculating CH16 tomorrow - I have Acti-ML. Right now I’m inclined to add the malolactic nutrient after I press but need some direction. I’ve added the following adjuncts to each ferment: EX-V, Opti-Red, Yeast/GoFerm, Tannin FT Rouge, 130gm TA (Cabernet Sauv only). I’m hesitant to add anymore to this wine right now...
> 
> Any direction? This will be the first time I’ve added a malo nutrient. All my previous lactic conversions finished without fail.



with a co-inoculation it’s def the safest route to take to utilize the opti malo. Acti is specifically for activating the bacteria. The opti will make sure the yeast and malo aren’t competing for nutrients Can you skip it and have no issue? Sure. but adding it can only help while omitting it increases the risk of negative effects.
Important that both the ml and yeast are properly fed their respective nutrients so nothing is stressed they say. Majority of the ML work is being done during the ferment with co-inocculations so waiting till after press doesn’t benefit that yeast/ml food competition. I’ll sometimes skip the post gross lees 1/2 shot of opti malo. But always add the initial one soon after inoculation.


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## crushday

Ajmassa said:


> with a co-inoculation it’s def the safest route to take to utilize the opti malo. Acti is specifically for activating the bacteria. The opti will make sure the yeast and malo aren’t competing for nutrients Can you skip it and have no issue? Sure. but adding it can only help while omitting it increases the risk of negative effects.
> Important that both the ml and yeast are properly fed their respective nutrients so nothing is stressed they say. Majority of the ML work is being done during the ferment with co-inocculations so waiting till after press doesn’t benefit that yeast/ml food competition. I’ll sometimes skip the post gross lees 1/2 shot of opti malo. But always add the initial one soon after inoculation.


Great advice. I’ll chase the Ch16 with the Acti-ML at the next punch.


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## Ajmassa

crushday said:


> Great advice. I’ll chase the Ch16 with the Acti-ML at the next punch.


You mean the opti malo ? Acti is combined with the bacteria to hydrate at inoculation. Luckily for our sakes all these things print instructions right on the labels!


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## crushday

@Ajmassa - What I ordered from LodiWineLabs is this: Acti-ML.

Here’s the description from their website:

Acti-ML® is a bacteria nutrient used during rehydration of the direct addition and standard malolactic bacteria strains. It was developed by the Lallemand bacteria R&D team led by Dr. Sibylle Krieger-Weber. Acti-ML is a specific blend of inactive yeasts rich in amino acids, mineral cofactors and vitamins. These inactive yeasts are mixed with cellulose to provide more surface area to help keep bacteria in suspension. Acti-ML can help strengthen the development of bacteria growth under difficult conditions.


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## Ajmassa

crushday said:


> @Ajmassa - What I ordered from LodiWineLabs is this: Acti-ML.
> 
> Here’s the description from their website:
> 
> Acti-ML® is a bacteria nutrient used during rehydration of the direct addition and standard malolactic bacteria strains. It was developed by the Lallemand bacteria R&D team led by Dr. Sibylle Krieger-Weber. Acti-ML is a specific blend of inactive yeasts rich in amino acids, mineral cofactors and vitamins. These inactive yeasts are mixed with cellulose to provide more surface area to help keep bacteria in suspension. Acti-ML can help strengthen the development of bacteria growth under difficult conditions.


Previous posts I mistakenly thought your reference of ‘mlf nutrients’ was separate from your mention of acti ml since that’s how I view it. Acti-ML as an activator. Opti-malo as the nutrient. 2 different things. Technically acti is a ‘nutrient’ but specifically for hydrating the bacteria before inoculating into the wine. 

you don’t necessarily need one or the other But should at least be aware of the distinction. ActiML & OptiMalo for ml bacteria can be compared to GoFerm & FermaidK for wine yeast.


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## stickman

crushday said:


> I’ve added the following adjuncts to each ferment: EX-V, Opti-Red, Yeast/GoFerm, Tannin FT Rouge, 130gm TA (Cabernet Sauv only). I’m hesitant to add anymore to this wine right now...



Man you really want your mouth to explode with flavor! That wine might require a knife and fork.


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## crushday

I have a potential dilemma. The Carignan wine is likely dry - done early. The Zinfandel is close as is the Pinot Noir. The others, Petit Verdot, Cab and Petite Sirah are not even close. 

Here’s the dilemma. I don’t really want to press twice. Is there a way to delay the Carignan up to 3-4 days by covering it with plastic cling wrap? The others too?

What does experience say?


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## CDrew

Not experience, but common sense. It's Sunday and time to press! In all seriousness, you dont know when the rest will be done, so I'd do now what you can do now.

I got up at 0430 for wine making chores before I go to work!


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## winemaker81

In a different thread, can't recall which, someone posted about chilling the must post-fermentation for ~3 weeks. Supposedly that works, but I would be highly concerned that the gross lees are going to settle and begin decomposition.

I also vote to press today.


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## crushday

Thanks @CDrew and @winemaker81 - pressing three of the batches today!

I just grabbed gravity numbers:

(Pressing today)
Carignan 1.002
Zinfandel 1.004
Pinot Noir 1.010

(Pressing later)
Petit Verdot 1.050
Petite Sirah 1.056
Cab Sauv 1.070

The petites and the cab had starting gravities that were north of 120.

I’ll post pictures later...


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## Boatboy24

Definitely agree with letting the PV, PS and CS go longer - you might be able to let 'em go until next weekend.


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## crushday

Quick question - does the thickness of the cap prevent oxygenation? The Petite Sirah and the Cab have 18-20 inch thick caps. The Verdot about 15 inches. I’ve only been punching down 3 times a day and have the space heated to 70 degrees. The big wines are slow, which I actually want, but it seems too slow...

Any answers and direction?


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## CDrew

What's the temp of the wine itself? I'd probably bump the temp a bit just to get it complete. Limited by non-professional equipment, I like to see things complete so they can be better protected. Which is why my white wine fermentation is 65 is going to make me nervous until it is complete.

Have fun pressing today!


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## winemaker81

Hmmmmm ... sorry, I have no knowledge regarding oxygenation. However, if your cap is that thick, I'd punch it down twice a day. That's simply a gut feel.


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## crushday

Done pressing the Pinot Noir, Zinfandel and Carignan. Took about 6 hours, including cleanup. 

Here are some pics from the day....


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## crushday

The Pinot is looking almost like a Rose’ to me...


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## CDrew

Any theory why the cab in particular is so far behind? ANything different that stands out?

But congrats on the great crush.


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## chitownwine

Looking great. I have a similar transfer pump I tried using to pump free run to tank and it would keep getting clogged in the small filter canister even using a rough pvc filter like yours. Yours seems to be flowing nicely to your wall mounted tanks.


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## winemaker81

It's sad that most of us live far apart. Pressing is a group activity, a party. It would be a blast to get a group together.

My son helped me press this year's 2nd run -- as much as it's hard work, it's a lot of fun!


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## crushday

CDrew said:


> Any theory why the cab in particular is so far behind? ANything different that stands out?
> 
> But congrats on the great crush.


The only thing I can think of is starting gravity. The Cab was 30.1 brix - I added 3 gallons of water to dilute. The PV and PS also had high brix - I think there's simply more sugar. And, I was purposely keeping the heat down for the sake of the Pinot. Now that it's in secondary, I turned up the heat. I'd like the remaining must up to 80-85 degrees. To answer your previous question, I checked the temp at the last punch it was was 72 degrees on the PV and 75 on the Cab and PS. The PV is in a 25 gallon fermentor and the Cab and PS are in 45 gallon. And, during the press, all three were exposed to the outside air of 38-45 degrees. Today's high was 46 but I was done by that time it hit that. I have everything back in order now and things should take off nicely.

Here's the press quantities:

Pinot Noir: 23 gallons free run and 6 gallons press
Carignan: 14 gallons free run and 3 gallons press
Zinfandel: 13 gallons free run and 4 gallons of press

Bacteria is doing it's job and yeast are finishing up soon.


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## crushday

chitownwine said:


> Looking great. I have a similar transfer pump I tried using to pump free run to tank and it would keep getting clogged in the small filter canister even using a rough pvc filter like yours. Yours seems to be flowing nicely to your wall mounted tanks.


Funny thing about that little pump. I installed that filter because I keep sucking up seeds and they clog the pump. I have to take it apart to clean and unclog it. The filter, first use today, clogged immediately with lees and I took it out. I did pick up two seeds today and had to clean the pump out. I need to figure something out. Perhaps I'll get a muslin bag for my GHP...

I perform secondary using fast ferment conicals. They work great. Once the bacteria is done, all the fine lees fall out to the collection ball. I also have 14 gallon fast ferment conicals that have their own stands.


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## crushday

winemaker81 said:


> It's sad that most of us live far apart. Pressing is a group activity, a party. It would be a blast to get a group together.
> 
> My son helped me press this year's 2nd run -- as much as it's hard work, it's a lot of fun!


That would be great to have someone to do this with. I typically do it all by myself. My wife helps me bottle and she runs the corker.


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## chitownwine

I tried wrapping my pvc tube with a mesh bag and then that became the point of clogging. I ended up using my all in one to vacuum into 6 gallon carboys which I then racked into my tanks. I was trying to use a pump like yours to skip the extra step of a carboy. I guess only other option is a larger must type of pump but those are pricey.


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## Ajmassa

Odd about the Pinot color. How did it look during the ferment?
I had a cab come in extra light like that Pinot. I didn’t have multiple ferments goin on at once for direct comparison, but it was noticeably lighter grapes and juice during the ferment in hindsight. I just didn’t really take notice it was that much lighter till after transferring and seeing the light color run thru the hoses.
All other variable were decent-the grapes just didn’t have much color to offer apparently. I flirted with the idea of adding Mega Purple or similar product, but ultimately ended up blending some extra dark inky Malbec into it to darken it up. The mega purple just felt too much like cheating.


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## crushday

Ajmassa said:


> Odd about the Pinot color. How did it look during the ferment?



It was light in color from the beginning. But, the Cab, PV and PS are all super inky so that contrast highlighted the light color of the PN. I tasted it and it’s good. I’ll know more in a couple weeks when I rack again. I’ll submit a pic then.


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## Ajmassa

crushday said:


> It was light in color from the beginning. But, the Cab, PV and PS are all super inky so that contrast highlighted the light color of the PN. I tasted it and it’s good. I’ll know more in a couple weeks when I rack again. I’ll submit a pic then.


I haven’t made a Pinot yet aside from a kit I did once. Been thinking about doing one soon. This one you did was from up your way correct? Fruit from Wash or Oregon? If I had any choice it would def be from up there.

To be brutally honest I think the movie Sideways turned me away from making Pinot. Not lying. Paul Giamatti’s emotional monologue about Pinot grapes and how fragile they are, and all the extra TLC required to make a great Pinot, and just all the reasons as to why he loves Pinot——- it made me almost put it up on a pedastal — to the point I subconsciously think: “do not attempt. You will screw it up!” Lol. One day I’ll make one. Anxious to see how this one ends up. Love the updates. Keep them comin!


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## Ajmassa

might as well post it if I’m gonna reference it. The Pinot scene followed by the woman’s reply of why she loves wine, and how each bottle is alive constantly evolving, until it eventually peaks. ——-Definitely my favorite wine related scene in any movie or show

Sideways Miles on Wine clip 1
Sideways Maya on Wine clip 2


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## AaronSC

Pinot is definitely in a class by itself, IMO, in being tough to work with. I made three from fresh grapes and two turned out poorly. I believe the first one may have been from a champagne clone -it had very little color and was very 'gamey' -it got blended with some other grapes. Next time I tried cold soaking for a week and then fermenting -same outcome. The was before all the enzymes and things like Lalvin EX made this easier. I gave up on pinot after that. The last season I made wine in the Finger Lakes (2010) I impulse purchased 70 lbs, because the place I was getting my grapes from had extra and she said the were the best they had ever harvested. These were great grapes -23.5 Brix and .75 TA. This time I changed tactics again and made a fruity style pinot with no ML -ended up as my favorite wine of the year and was gone way too soon. My conclusion is that pinot is made more by the farmer and nature than by the wine maker, even more than most wines...


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## crushday

Here's a pic of the Pinot going into secondary. It's disappointingly very light in color...


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## crushday

Ajmassa said:


> might as well post it if I’m gonna reference it. The Pinot scene followed by the woman’s reply of why she loves wine, and how each bottle is alive constantly evolving, until it eventually peaks. ——-Definitely my favorite wine related scene in any movie or show
> 
> Sideways Miles on Wine clip 1
> Sideways Maya on Wine clip 2


Never seen that movie before - watched the two clips... Perhaps I'll watch it sometime.

All this makes me want to conquer the Pinot Noir!!


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## winemaker81

At one of the AWS conventions I had a discussion with a grape researcher -- I _think _he worked at the Geneva NY center. He was experimenting to consistently get good color from Pinot Noir. Apparently fermenting at high temperatures (85+ F IIRC) got the best result for color extraction, but killed the fruitiness.

You could try enzymes next time. I got fantastic results this year, and others report the same with different products.


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## crushday

winemaker81 said:


> You could try enzymes next time.


Bryan, I did use enzymes - EX-V. There wasn't much color left in the skins... I also monitored the ferment and it never got above 72 degrees. I wanted the fruit and figured the EX-V would get me the color.


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## winemaker81

Huh, I'd expect EX-V would produce better results. After the wine clears, post a picture of the wine in a glass against a white background so we can see.

Last year my grapes arrived refrigerated, they warmed up to the mid-60's F the next day, so I had 1 day of cold soak. I added 1/2 lb _oak chips_ in 180 lbs of grapes, and pressed at 1.010. The colors were ok, but nothing to brag about. [Wine tastes good, so 2019 was a big success for me!]

This year the arrival conditions were the same. I added 1 lb _shredded oak_ in 144 lbs of grapes, ScottZyme ColorPro, and fermented to below 1.000, giving more time for extraction. Between the three, I got great color, and even very green, the wine has a lot of flavor.

The picture below is my _2nd run_ -- the first run is darker. While this is not Pinot Noir, it illustrates the results I got.

I believe the enzyme was the bigger contributor to this success, but the shredded oak is a factor.

Note: I've had a lot of really good commercial Pinot Noir that lacked a deep color. While the dark color is more visually appealing, I have reasonable hopes that yours will turn out well.


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## crushday

winemaker81 said:


> I added 1 lb _shredded oak_ in 144 lbs of grapes


Tell me more about the reasoning in adding oak to primary, please. Sacrificial tannins? I'll aging my PN in a neutral barrel as I want to highlight the fruit.

I will definitely post a pic of the cleared wine.


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## winemaker81

From what I've read, the fermentation oak helps extract more color and body from the pomace, and when settling, the tannins in the oak drop first, preserving the natural grape tannin and color. Hence the term "sacrificial tannin".

I used shredded oak as I was thinking about surface area -- the fermentation process is quick (~1 week) so the more surface area the oak has, the more interaction there is. Chips have much less surface area for the same weight, so (in my theory) there is less interaction.

Contrary to what I've read, the type of oak changes the flavor. Merlot on American oak was fruity while the same Merlot on French oak had a deeper flavor. This tasting was 1 week after pressing, so the wine was very green., and I expect it to change with time. I'm preserving a gallon of each variety to use as a control, so I'll have more comments in the future.


----------



## sour_grapes

crushday said:


> Here's a pic of the Pinot going into secondary. It's disappointingly very light in color...



Just think of it as a PN more in the Burgundian style than in the Cali style...


----------



## CDrew

sour_grapes said:


> Just think of it as a PN more in the Burgundian style than in the Cali style...



I have to agree. But for this and other reasons is why I have not attempted a Pinot Noir. I think that since you've had a successful fermentation that you should just push on with the aging process. I'll bet you'll be much happier after a ride in your barrel.

I also like the idea of your conical vessels to get the wine off the gross lees. How long do you leave it there? ANy difficulty getting an air tight seal at the lid?

PN is difficult for even the most skilled wine makers, and I'm not sure that it would be a good fit for me. Plus, there isn't that much premium PN grown around here and I'd have to go more coastal to find some. There is PN around Lodi, but I think it likely is grown for yield and not quality.


----------



## Ajmassa

- sometimes grapes just don’t have much color to give, regardless of enzymes or time or amount or anything. You can’t extract what isn’t there.

But you got some PV goin— so it’s an easy fix!


----------



## crushday

CDrew said:


> I also like the idea of your conical vessels to get the wine off the gross lees. How long do you leave it there? ANy difficulty getting an air tight seal at the lid?


I leave the wine in the conicals for the duration of the secondary fermentation. Because of the way the conicals are designed, once the lees fall into the collection ball it is effectively removed from the wine. I fill to the very top of the conical (see pic). There's a little room for the Tilt hydrometer to float.

As far as an airtight seal - no known issues but the longest the wine is in there is 4 weeks before it's transferred post MLF to long term storage.


----------



## crushday

Here’s a pic where you can see the lees being captured by the collection ball. This is on the Carignan and you can see about an inch. This will increase another 1/4” over the next four weeks with fine lees. The color will be lighter and a definite difference begins to show between the two types.


----------



## crushday

Just checked gravity on the three remaining musts in primary:

Petite Sirah: 1.017
Cabernet: 1.024
Petit Verdot: 1.010

I’ll likely press on Sunday. I’d like to get the Cab sub .010 before I press - 7 clicks a day seems about right. 

I’m also considering a pomace (Piquette) wine and using a even combination of the PS, PV and Cab skins. Anyone have any experience making Piquette? Any direction?


----------



## winemaker81

I make 2nd run wines, which appears to be heavier than piquette. Personally, I'd not make what I read as instructions for piquette. My 2nd runs are wine, not "wine like".

In 2019 I made a 2nd run on mixed Malbec, Merlot, & Zinfandel. The results are lighter bodied than any of the three 1st run wines, but have a lot of flavor. It's good enough for steak, and certainly great for salmon or roast turkey. It ages faster and is quite drinkable at the 1 year mark. And it extended my production by 50% at a cost of $0.38/bottle USD. FYI -- I did a medium press, which spent 10 months in a neutral barrel with 6 oz oak cubes, then hard pressed the remainder. The hard press has a bit more body and is fruity, while the light press has nice caramel notes.

This fall it's Merlot, Zinfandel, and a Vinifera blend. I pressed extra hard and did not separate, so it's all one batch (raw 20 gallons).

To make:

Press the 1st run medium-ish, don't press hard. For every 2 gallons of 1st run wine, add to the pomace: 1 gallon water, 2 lbs sugar, 1/2 tsp tannin, 1 to 3 tsp acid blend, yeast nutrient. Let it ferment to below 1.000 and press hard.

My proportion of water to 1st run wine is a bit light -- for 11 gallons of 1st run, I'd add 4.5 to 5 gallons of water, plus additives to match. Quality over quantity.

I ferment the batches separate as it's more manageable for me, and blend post-fermentation. Too much work to keep 3 more batches separate. This fall I did 3 batches (two Merlot, one Vinifera blend) and divided the Zinfandel pomace between the 3 fermenters. This one has much better color, but I used enzymes in the 1st run and got a LOT more color extraction.

EDIT: This is this year's 2nd run. Color is great.


----------



## winemaker81

This year's is MUCH darker than last year, but this year I also added a pound of shredded oak per 4 lugs as fermentation oak, and used ScottZyme ColorPro. As dark as the second run looks, the first run is visibly darker.

With kits and juice I got in the habit of pressing at ~1.010, which is what I did last year. This year I let the SG get south of 1.000, so the wine had another day or two of pomace contact. Between the 3 things, it made a tremendous difference in color.


----------



## Ajmassa

^^


----------



## franc1969

crushday said:


> I’m also considering a pomace (Piquette) wine and using a even combination of the PS, PV and Cab skins. Anyone have any experience making Piquette? Any direction?


A couple of weeks ago, I picked up Petit Verdot and Tannat skins from @mainshipfred's wine. An experiment for me, to see if I liked the idea of doing a seconds wine or piquette, and mostly to add skins to cider. I have been getting apples which are cider-specific, but wanted to see what I could do with a commercial sweet cider. I have been looking at producers that do cider on grape skins for a rose' and tannins not found in a sweet cider.
They were pressed hard, 3 bar on his new hydropress. I wasn't sure what I would get with a hard press, but have some really fun wine going so far. The Petit Verdot was split into cider and seconds, one bucket of cider got some Tannat too. The Tannat I am splitting out as an oak experiment as well, American/French/Hungarian comparison. Seconds wine was roughly doubled or more of grape skins, cider I added about a pound of dry skins per gallon.
Overall, more than enough color in the skins. My cider is a beautiful rose', the PV seconds is like a pinot noir or gamay light red, tannat a nice deep purple. Enough tannins left to balance cider that is lacking, and the tannat seconds are still pretty astringent on their own. Not as deep and bold as first press, but fun, and the PV aroma and taste are very fruity. My tasters so far like both separate, but prefer it blended. Fred had added enzymes so the PV skins really started to break down after another week fermentation, Tannat not as much but still a lot of lees. I am not sure I have the acid levels right, but I'll get there.
You should have a fun time with the three grapes you have.


----------



## crushday

I really need the voice of experience today....

Gravity update:

PS - 1.007 (down 3 clicks from yesterday morning) - should be 15.2 ABV at 1.000 - added 2 gallons of water at start
PV - 1.003 (down 7 clicks from yesterday morning) - should be 15.9 ABV at 1.000
CS - 1.020 (down 4 clicks from yesterday morning) - should be 16.3 ABV at 1.000 - added 3 gallons of water at start

All of these were high Brix grapes. 

Should I press today or wait until tomorrow morning. I’m leaning toward tomorrow (Sunday) morning. I’m very concerned about the Cab Sauv, especially. Even with Avante (17v.v), these have been slow moving ferments.

I’m leaning toward tomorrow because I don’t want to disrupt the yeast - which don’t have much horsepower left at this point. But that might be failed thinking... I added a little Fermaid O to the Cab and during the punch this morning I mixed the bejesus out of the must trying to infuse oxygen. All three were mixed hard for that matter.

The cap is still fairly organized on all three with the PV b eing the least organized overnight.

Should I press today or tomorrow?


----------



## cmason1957

It is probably your call. PV or PS can really be either. The CS is the one I would be worried about as well. Since it still has a good cap and is dropping, maybe let it go a bit longer, maybe with more vigorous punch downs.


----------



## stickman

Did you ever confirm the initial gravity? It's not uncommon to see higher values than what is reported as the average. I see the starting brix for the Cab at 27.9, so based on that if you added 3gal water to the 7 pails of must, I would estimate initial gravity at around 24.5 brix based on a typical finished yield for frozen pails. At 24.5 starting gravity, it shouldn't be too difficult to finish, depending on what numbers you want to believe, the ABV should finish around 14.5 to 14.8.

As long as the cap is still forming then you're still in good shape, you can let it continue, oxidation is normally not a problem with these type of heavy wines. The wine will pick up more tannin at this stage, and you should be able to taste it as the sugar drops. I often let the wine finish in contact with the skins, but not everyone would appreciate that level of tannin, so it's your call.


----------



## crushday

@stickman, thanks for the numbers. However, even though I ordered the 2020 cab, what I got was 2019. I didn’t even check at the pick up site because all the buckets had a think frost. It was not until the next day that I realized I was given the wrong Cab. Same source - different year. 

The 2019 Cab is listed as 29.1 Brix. When I measured it, it was 30 Brix. So, wanting a more alcoholic Cab, I only added 3 gallons of water. I maybe should have added 5 total.

I could press the PS and PV on Sunday - and, the Cab later in the week. But I have a very busy week at work this coming week (unless our governor shuts us down on Monday, which is the rumor based on my daughter-in-law, who is a State Patrol officer).

I’ll post gravity again tomorrow and let you know...


----------



## crushday

Here’s the CS cap. I punched down three hours ago...

It’s 38 gallons in a 45 gallon Brute.


----------



## winemaker81

I'd wait until tomorrow to press, and probably not the CS. You'll get more from the grapes if you let the wine drop to 1.000 or less.

I WFH and work early hours, so quitting at 3PM and starting pressing works for me during the week. Not so for many folks.


----------



## crushday

I’m going to press the Petit Verdot today. Gravity is 1.001. I’ll leave the other two as is right now. The PV has a loose cap, still formed but you can tell we’re at the end. THe PS and CS both have fairly formed caps but the gravity didn’t move much overnight:

Petite Sirah: 1.006 - one click overnight
Cab Sauv: 1.018 - two clicks overnight

I realized this morning that it‘s been misguided of me to want to press all the wines on the same day - whatever, George... The wine is ready when it’s ready and that likely isn’t going to be convenient. 

So, I’m resolved to pressing when the wine is done even if that means after work one or more days this week. Set up and clean up is a chore but I’m the one that started six batches all at once...lol!


----------



## Booty Juice

FWIW - I've pressed wines up to 1.020 for convenience - all went dry during bulk aging.


----------



## Ajmassa

Booty Juice said:


> FWIW - I've pressed wines up to 1.020 for convenience - all went dry during bulk aging.


And I do the opposite. I’ll press extra dry for convenience. Putting off till an ideal day


----------



## winemaker81

crushday said:


> I realized this morning that it‘s been misguided of me to want to press all the wines on the same day


I disagree -- it makes sense to _want_ to press on the same day, as the startup and clean up are the same, regardless of how much wine is pressed. Whether or not the yeast is cooperating? Mother Nature has her own agenda ...


----------



## crushday

I did press the Petit Verdot. I was able to get the following quantities:

Free run: 10 gallons
Press (1 bar or less): 4 gallons
Press (3 bar): 1/2 gallon

Overall I’m happy with the wine and will press the others as necessary.

A few pics:


----------



## Boatboy24

crushday said:


> I did press the Petit Verdot. I was able to get the following quantities:
> 
> Free run: 10 gallons
> Press (1 bar or less): 4 gallons
> Press (3 bar): 1/2 gallon
> 
> Overall I’m happy with the wine and will press the others as necessary.
> 
> A few pics:
> 
> View attachment 68304
> View attachment 68305
> View attachment 68307
> View attachment 68308



By the looks of it, you had plenty of time on the skins. 

FWIW, I try to press all my wines at once (they are usually all crushed and pitched at the same time). Some are more done than others, but if they're all 1.010 or less, I'm happy. I'd have to go back through my notes, but I think I had one that was pushing 1.020 one year.


----------



## crushday

@Boatboy24 Jim, I’m really fearing a couple stuck fermentations with the PS and the Cab (especially the Cab) as both had high Brix. Even though I diluted, both of these have been a slog. As long as the cap continues to form after punching I’ll be patient.

75 gallons of must with too much residual would seriously suck. I would be using it for the next five years as blending wine. I’m cringing thinking about it.


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## winemaker81

@crushday, what is the temperature of the musts? A bit of heat might stimulate things. Have you experienced environmental temperature swings? That may have stunted things. I'd punch down the cap twice a day as it may stimulate the yeast (this is anecdotal, I don't have real documentation that it works).

If it was me? For the PS, give it a day or two more, and if the SG is not moving, press. If the CS's SG is not moving, I'd hit it with yeast and a half or quarter dose of nutrient.

My comment on letting the SG get to 1.000 before pressing is to give the wine more time to extract goodness from the pulp. You're getting that anyway (the one thing stuck fermentation is good for!), so if you're feeling nervous about it (I would!) press the CS. It would be nice to get the SG lower, but if it's below 1.020, I agree that it's pressable.

As @Booty Juice said, it will ferment to completion in the carboy, and that avoids a lot of environmental contamination that could occur in an open fermenter.

A tip -- each time you punch down, wet a clean paper town liberally with K-meta and wipe the inside of the fermenter just above the cap, removing chunks sticking to the side of the fermenter. This eliminates a place where organisms can grow. I do this with grapes and juice (after stirring). Sulfite is released in the air above the wine and it may help with preventing spoilage.


----------



## CDrew

Good luck @crushday with the cab. Honestly if the SG is dropping, even slowly, I'd stick with it. If fermentation sticks with Avante yeast, it would be the first time I'd heard of that, and it can tolerate 17% alcohol, so I think you're ok.

Maybe a heating pad under the fermenter for a few hours? I did that with the semillion last week, since the room it's in is just 60F, and even within 2-3 degrees rise, the was notably faster fermentation. If you could get it to 70 or 75F you would optimize your chances. I used a seed starting mat that is about 90F on the surface and it seemed to do the trick.

And according to Gusmer, the lower temp limit for Avante yeast is 65F. So it likes things 5-10 degrees warmer than a lot of other yeasts.

I had one other thought. Does WGD sulfite the must before shipment? If so, that could make fermentations more difficult. I didn't ask, but it's a question.

Very interested and will follow your progress.


----------



## crushday

Just checked on everything...

Both the CS and the PS have nicely formed caps. Nice suggestion @winemaker81 on cleaning the “chips” of dried skins above the cap. I actually wondered about that today when I punched down. 

Checked the gravity. I’m happy to report these numbers:

Petite Sirah: 1.002 (four clicks overnight)
Cab Sauv: 1.011 (seven clicks overnight) - great news!

To answer @CDrew and @winemaker81 on the temp. I moved the musts to my fermenting room after the second day (November 2) because I saw heating my entire garage as a waste. Moving six active ferments to my little fermenting room was tight but it’s been a cosy 70 degrees most of the time. About a week ago I bumped it up to 75. The must on both is around 76.

I’ll know more tomorrow but I suspect that I’ll be pressing tomorrow after work.

I could do the PS tonight. Any reason it can’t sit there another day? Off flavors? Too much tannin from seeds?


----------



## winemaker81

The PS will be fine, and if it progresses the same, the CS will be below 1.004. I'd press tomorrow out of simple laziness.


----------



## Boatboy24

crushday said:


> @Boatboy24 Jim, I’m really fearing a couple stuck fermentations with the PS and the Cab (especially the Cab) as both had high Brix. Even though I diluted, both of these have been a slog. As long as the cap continues to form after punching I’ll be patient.
> 
> 75 gallons of must with too much residual would seriously suck. I would be using it for the next five years as blending wine. I’m cringing thinking about it.



You are far from a worst case scenario, and you always have the "ferment-a-brick" yeast - EC-1118.


----------



## stickman

The photo in post #82 has quite a few raisins, so I would guess the original measured brix of 30 was 1 or 2 below actual. It should complete, but might be slow with accumulating alcohol, even with the water addition you might still hit 16 to 16.5 ABV.


----------



## crushday

@stickman - for my personal educational purpose - why would raisins affect my measured brix? Because of concentrated sugar contained within?


----------



## crushday

Boatboy24 said:


> You are far from a worst case scenario, and you always have the "ferment-a-brick" yeast - EC-1118.


How would you recommending transitioning to **18 if needed? Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## crushday

Drinking a nice PV in celebration of my pressing yesterday. This is a massive rendition of this massive grape!


----------



## Boatboy24

crushday said:


> How would you recommending transitioning to **18 if needed? Inquiring minds want to know...



If you really, truly think you're stuck, just start some up and pitch it. It'll go to 18%. Some call it "the cleaner".


----------



## stickman

I would just keep checking the gravity, as long as it keeps moving it should be ok. I haven't used Avante, but based on what others are reporting, it should finish the job. Transitioning to another yeast is difficult at high alcohol, you have to go through the steps to aclimate the yeast slowly. I wouldn't bother unless it is absolutely necessary, even then, I'd probably first just try to get a 5gal pail started by tossing in some light lees from something that was just pressed and finished strong, if that gets going then pitch it into the whole batch. Obviously you can move ahead with the full restart procedure if that fails. Hopefully you won't need any of this screwing around.


----------



## crushday

Gravity update:

Petite Sirah: 1.001 (1 click overnight)
Cab Sauv: 1.008 (3 clicks overnight)

Maybe tonight. However, this is my busiest day at work and I won't get home until 6pm. I'd prefer Wednesday...cap still resident but getting less organized.


----------



## stickman

At some point soon you may want to run a chromatogram just to see the status and get a baseline. If the ML completes before the AF finishes, lysozyme can be used to stop ML activity if necessary, this allows you to hold off on SO2 until the AF completes. Hopefully this won't be an issue, I'm just trying to keep you one step ahead.


----------



## crushday

stickman said:


> At some point soon you may want to run a chromatogram just to see the status and get a baseline. If the ML completes before the AF finishes, lysozyme can be used to stop ML activity if necessary, this allows you to hold off on SO2 until the AF completes. Hopefully this won't be an issue, I'm just trying to keep you one step ahead.


Very helpful!!!


----------



## Johnd

crushday said:


> Gravity update:
> 
> Petite Sirah: 1.003 (1 click overnight)
> Cab Sauv: 1.008 (3 clicks overnight)
> 
> Maybe tonight. However, this is my busiest day at work and I won't get home until 6pm. I'd prefer Wednesday...cap still resident but getting less organized.


You shouldn't have any trouble waiting as many days as you need to for convenience, waiting to press until it's dry if you like, at the rate it's going, tomorrow shouldn't be an issue..........


----------



## crushday

Johnd said:


> You shouldn't have any trouble waiting as many days as you need to for convenience, waiting to press until it's dry if you like, at the rate it's going, tomorrow shouldn't be an issue..........


Thanks John! Nice buck, BTW... Are you going to get it mounted?


----------



## Johnd

crushday said:


> Thanks John! Nice buck, BTW... Are you going to get it mounted?


Yes, we caped it in Colorado, wrapped and froze the cape for transport. I delivered it frozen to the taxidermist yesterday, along with the antlers.....................


----------



## crushday

I pressed the Petite Sirah tonight. Gravity is at 1.001. I was able to get the following quantities:

1. Free run: 23 gallons
2. Press run (1 bar or less): 3 gallons
3. Press run (3 bar): 1 gallon

I’m really enjoying using the hydro press. I can control the pressure which helps me keep even the pressed wine lightly pressed. Once I put on the full pressure, not much comes out.


----------



## crushday

Discovered a leak overnight - transferring now... This is the Petite Sirah.


----------



## stickman

Did the valve split? You really dodged a bullet on that one, it could have been much worse.


----------



## crushday

stickman said:


> Did the valve split? You really dodged a bullet on that one, it could have been much worse.


I looks to me like where the threaded fermentor threads into the valve cracked - or at least got bent somehow. I only had enough time this morning to transfer. I'll explore more when I get home from work. It dripped all night long and I have a mess to clean up too... Major crisis averted!


----------



## Ajmassa

crushday said:


> I looks to me like where the threaded fermentor threads into the valve cracked - or at least got bent somehow. I only had enough time this morning to transfer. I'll explore more when I get home from work. It dripped all night long and I have a mess to clean up too... Major crisis averted!


Don’t hesitate to hit us with the cab & PV SG updates too!. Curious how it goes since I’m following along with my own high brix cab that’s been fermenting over 2 weeks and trying to cross the finish line ever so slowly. 2 days went from 1.006 to 1.000. Fingers crossed for all 3


----------



## stickman

@crushday send some photos to FastFerment, with several units you're considered a very good customer, so they shouldn't have a problem with replacing the tank. Also take a close look at your other units to see if there is anything going on that might be common.


----------



## Johnd

I don't know how the FF units go together, but it looks like it's cross-threaded................


----------



## CDrew

Johnd said:


> I don't know how the FF units go together, but it looks like it's cross-threaded................



First thing I thought when I saw it.


----------



## mainshipfred

crushday said:


> I pressed the Petite Sirah tonight. Gravity is at 1.001. I was able to get the following quantities:
> 
> 1. Free run: 23 gallons
> 2. Press run (1 bar or less): 3 gallons
> 3. Press run (3 bar): 1 gallon
> 
> I’m really enjoying using the hydro press. I can control the pressure which helps me keep even the pressed wine lightly pressed. Once I put on the full pressure, not much comes out.



Question for you, when you say 1 bar is that what it was holding or what pressed out once you reached 1 bar? 

Also just for a reference I just pressed my Norton and got a pretty even amount of free run and press. I also pressed at 3 bar but that's quite a difference in the percentages.


----------



## stickman

What @Johnd @CDrew you think @crushday would cross-thread and leave it like that? I'm thinking maybe a defective thin area around the tank bottom, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, yes, what, no?


----------



## Johnd

stickman said:


> What @Johnd @CDrew you think @crushday would cross-thread and leave it like that? I'm thinking maybe a defective thin area around the tank bottom, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, yes, what, no?


LOL!! I think it’s possible, I do all sorts of stupid crap when I’m in the heat of wine battle. Cross threading would be easy for me......


----------



## crushday

Just got home. I had to spend the day at our Bellevue office. At the wrong time day, that 60 miles can be three hours... 

Although it's dark, I inspected the fermentor. As @stickman intuitively noticed, it's a weak area in the plastic conical near the threads. Before first use, over two years ago, I threaded the unit into the valve with teflon tape. There's a crack. Not sure how that happened as I didn't drop it or bang it into something. This has happened one other time but on a smaller (7.9g) unit. But, I'm glad I didn't loose $1000 worth of wine over it.

I plan on getting a new unit either by replacement or simple purchase. They work great for how I use them. 

@Ajmassa - I didn't have time this morning to take a gravity reading. What little time I had this morning got hijacked by the transfer. Tomorrow...


----------



## crushday

mainshipfred said:


> Question for you, when you say 1 bar is that what it was holding or what pressed out once you reached 1 bar?
> 
> Also just for a reference I just pressed my Norton and got a pretty even amount of free run and press. I also pressed at 3 bar but that's quite a difference in the percentages.


Great question. I held it at 1 bar or below, getting to one bar for a second and then easing back, for over 20 minutes and let the wine drain. Only after some elapsed time did I open it fully and go to 3 bars. It takes a little longer but I feel like I'm getting a gentle press.


----------



## CDrew

Looking at it again, it still looks cross threaded. Maybe cross threading it is what cracked the fermenter? Plastic threads are always easy to cross thread, even when you're trying not to.


----------



## sour_grapes

I agree with @CDrew . However, to give @crushday the benefit of the doubt, a crack could lead to cross-threading as well as the other way around! George, just maintain your innocence!


----------



## crushday

sour_grapes said:


> I agree with @CDrew . However, to give @crushday the benefit of the doubt, a crack could lead to cross-threading as well as the other way around! George, just maintain your innocence!


I can tell you, if it's cross threaded it's been that way for 2 years and many batches of wine. It's never leaked before last night.

I can post pics of it closer tomorrow, when it's light.

I'm going to press the Cab Sauv tomorrow after work. I get home approximately 3pm tomorrow.


----------



## David Lewis

@crushday can you tell me how you use the Speidel and FastFerment. Are these just short term vessels or can you use the long term. If long term. How do you manage headspace. If short term, how long do you store them and what do you transfer your wines to.


----------



## crushday

David Lewis said:


> @crushday can you tell me how you use the Speidel and FastFerment. Are these just short term vessels or can you use the long term. If long term. How do you manage headspace. If short term, how long do you store them and what do you transfer your wines to.


David, glad to. I ferment primary open. Depending on volume, I use stainless steel or Brute. Once primary is done, I pump the wine using a 1 GPM pump. I like that pump speed because the gravity flow of wine into the giga hole pipe is about that. I wrap the GHP with a muslin bag. This keeps seeds and a surprising amount of lees from getting into secondary. 

I use the the FF conicals for secondary and I fill them right up to within a 1/2" from the top. This gives the necessary room for the Tilt hydrometers to float freely. The seal on the FF is tight. I might mention that it has been my practice to co-innoculate the MLF bacteria 1-2 days after the start of primary fermentation.

After secondary, I transfer the wine to an appropriate sized vessel for long-term storage. This can either be various sized Speidel (300L, 200L, 60L) or glass (6g, 3g, 1g jugs).

Ultimately, the wine gets transferred to barrels in approximately 1 year for barrel aging prior to bottling. 

Note, the use of the Speidel during the leaky transfer is because I don't have replacement conical to transfer to. Or, I would have used that instead. 

Let me know if you have any more questions.


----------



## crushday

Here's a gravity update:

Cab Sauv: temperature adjusted gravity - 1.004 - 4 clicks in two days

I'm going to transfer to secondary this afternoon.


----------



## crushday

Got the Cab Sauv transferred. Was able to get the following quantities:

1. 24.5 gallons free run
2. 2 gallons of press (1 bar or less)
3. 1.5 gallons of press (3 bar)

Looks like the Avante did its job. Gravity is .999 and likely to continue dropping a few more points. I’m relieved. 

The taste is very exciting and color is very dark. Not as dark as the Petite Sirah, but darker than most Cabs I’ve had.

Very happy with all the wine* this year.

*taste of Pinot Noir is great. Color right now appears light. I’ll know more after I rack.


----------



## crushday

Update November 29 - 

Everything is going great, but there are a few gravity surprises:

Surprises:

Carignan: 1.000 (hasn’t budged for 13 days) - RP15 yeast, nutrients provided throughout
Petite Sirah: 1.001 (hasn’t budged for 7 days) - Avante yeast, nutrients provided throughout


Others:

Pinot Noir: Color is not looking so Rose’ and gravity is .997
Zinfandel: Gravity is .994 (color is nice for a Zin)
Petit Verdot: Gravity is .996 (color is inky and awesome)
Cabernet Sauv: Gravity is .997 (color is great!)

Any recommendations on blending with the PS? Of course, I’ll taste after secondary but I’m thinking it’s going to be too sweet.

How about blending the Carignan?


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## mainshipfred

I think it may have been @CDrew that posted Carignan and Zin were the same or similar grapes. I have 3 gallons of Carignan and about 12 of Zin I was thinking about blending. As far as the PS and depending on the starting gravity and acid a little sweetness might make for a nice balance.


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## crushday

@mainshipfred - that's a really great point to bring in the beginning gravity and pH. Original gravity was 1.114 and pH was 3.28. I haven't checked pH yet as I suspect I wouldn't get a clear reading with it still throwing CO2.

I suspect the MLF will be done mid-December. I'll likely rack to long term storage just before Christmas and give it taste then and run more baseline tests.


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## CDrew

mainshipfred said:


> I think it may have been @CDrew that posted Carignan and Zin were the same or similar grapes. I have 3 gallons of Carignan and about 12 of Zin I was thinking about blending. As far as the PS and depending on the starting gravity and acid a little sweetness might make for a nice balance.



I hope I didn't say that, but I have seen them planted and harvested together at Ridge for their Lytton Springs Zinfandel. But a blend at that level would be a similar idea to what Ridge does and I agree with you that it would be a good blend pairing.


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## Booty Juice

You may be surprised how many people like the PS as-is.


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## sour_grapes

mainshipfred said:


> I think it may have been @CDrew that posted Carignan and Zin were the same or similar grapes. I have 3 gallons of Carignan and about 12 of Zin I was thinking about blending. As far as the PS and depending on the starting gravity and acid a little sweetness might make for a nice balance.





CDrew said:


> I hope I didn't say that, but I have seen them planted and harvested together at Ridge for their Lytton Springs Zinfandel. But a blend at that level would be a similar idea to what Ridge does and I agree with you that it would be a good blend pairing.



No, it is Zinfandel and Primitivo that are the same grape.


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## winemaker81

crushday said:


> Carignan: 1.000 (hasn’t budged for 13 days) - RP15 yeast, nutrients provided throughout
> Petite Sirah: 1.001 (hasn’t budged for 7 days) - Avante yeast, nutrients provided throughout


Last year I had a stuck fermentation -- the wine stopped at 1.000, and nothing I did budged it.

So I put the wine in a barrel and carboy -- 2 weeks later the bung blew out of the barrel, several days in a row. I checked the SG, it was 0.996 in both the barrel and the carboy. That location gets morning sun (I've since installed curtains) and I strongly suspect the sun warmed both containers, which kicked off the fermentation.

Be patient with both. You might give both a good stir to introduce a bit of oxygen and put the fermenters some place warm, or use a warming belt if you have one.


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## crushday

Here’s the chromo test started on Saturday night. The second one from left is a wine kit - still showing malo.

The Petite Sirah, two instances, has malo still - ironically, those two have a gravity of 1.000. Everything else is dry and seemingly done on the mlf test. I’ll move to long term storage on all on December 20th...


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## NorCal

Booty Juice said:


> You may be surprised how many people like the PS as-is.


Yea, what do you blend with a blending grape? I did a few carboys of PS/PV and it’s going to need a few years to come into its own.


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## sour_grapes

NorCal said:


> Yea, what do you blend with a blending grape?



Well, you _could _blend in like 90% of a non-blending grape!


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## Booty Juice

Good PS grapes make delicious stand alone wines. A 90 to 95% ish PS with Zin is one of my favorites.


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## crushday

Thieved some Pinot Noir tonight - color is way better than I previously experienced and the taste right now is great for a young Pinot...

A few pics:


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## CDrew

That looks pretty good and appropriate for Pinot Noir. A little light, maybe, but this isn't a tannic, dark wine. If taste is good, I'd say it's a win. In the end this could be very good.


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## crushday

CDrew said:


> That looks pretty good and appropriate for Pinot Noir. A little light, maybe, but this isn't a tannic, dark wine. If taste is good, I'd say it's a win. In the end this could be very good.


Drew, your sediments* are exactly what I’m hoping for. I’m very excited about this wine!

*sentiments


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## sour_grapes

crushday said:


> your sediments



I see what you did there! Lees is more!


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## crushday

sour_grapes said:


> I see what you did there! Lees is more!


Lol...you give me too much credit! Spell check took over... sentiments should replace the gaffe.

You, however, are very creative!!


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## sour_grapes

crushday said:


> Lol...you give me too much credit! Spell check took over... sentiments should replace the gaffe.
> 
> You, however, are very creative!!



Aww, don't be _gross_. I am not very _particulate_ about these things. At the very _yeast_, I think what you wrote originally was _fine_.


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## Kraffty

sour_grapes said:


> Aww, don't be _gross_. I am not very _particulate_ about these things. At the very _yeast_, I think what you wrote originally was _fine_



Just Stomp it!


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## NorCal

I’m having to sort through this thread. This must stem from people having too much time.


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## SLM

Alright the temptation was too much. I'm driving to Portland this week. My blend:

2020 Merlot, Walla Walla Valley WA (X2)2019 Cab Sauv, Rattlesnake Hills WA 2020 Cab Franc, Rattlesnake Hills WA 
I don't have much experience and your journey raises some questions for me.
Why did you press some grapes before they went dry? Is that timing critical? Why do you separate into free-run and then two pressings? Why do you want a gentle press?


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## winemaker81

@SLM, instead of muddying this thread with what might be a very detailed discussion, I started a new thread, *When To Press ??*, to discuss the why's and wherefore's of pressing.


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