# Neutral 23L barrel



## troutstix

Hello,

I have a 23L barrel that is no longer imparting any oak flavor, and I am wondering how long everyone is leaving their kits in a neutral barrel to get good micro-oxidation?

I was doing 12 weeks, but need to speed things up because I am getting too backed up. I am still trying to get the 2011 LE's thru, and am my 2012 LE's are starting to pour in! I would like to cut down to 8 weeks, but I am not sure if I will get as good a benefit. Btw, I have (2) 23L barrels (one american and one hungarian) and don't really want to get another- unless it is a 46L.

Thanks in advance!


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## ibglowin

I just received my 3rd 23L Vadai last week. My first two are hitting the sweet spot of 3-4 months. I personally think 3-4 months is a great amount of time for these small barrels. 8 weeks is really a bare minimum for a decent amount of oxidation on these. I really wanted to order the 40L Vadai its almost twice the storage for only $23 more but these 23L barrels are really the perfect size since my carboys are 23L as well. Even with doing 800lbs of fresh grapes this Fall, I still end up putting it all into 23L glass carboys and then as needed 1G jugs. 

Perhaps my 4th will be a 40L!


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## robie

I agree with Mike. I just started with my 2nd 23l barrel.


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## UBB

I'm seriously wanting to get a barrel (or 2) in preparation for my grapes next fall. What kind of price are you guys paying for the 40 liter barrels? Also, if any of you guys have a pic you'd like to share it would be greatly appreciated.


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## ibglowin

95% of us with the small ones are using Vadai Barrels Very good prices, Hungarian oak. Just make sure you have you have enough wines lined up to keep it full at all times as that is really the easiest way. You do not want to be draining, rinsing, using sulfur wicks. Also it is best to run 3-4 kit wines through first before you put any wine from fresh grapes in so they can stay longer. Also you do not want to want to put a kit wine into a barrel after the barrel has been exposed to wine that has gone through MLF as you do not want a kit wine to undergo MLF. So once its full, it stays full. One it has been exposed to MLB, nothing but fresh grape wine goes in after that.


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## UBB

ibglowin said:


> 95% of us with the small ones are using Vadai Barrels Very good prices, Hungarian oak. Just make sure you have you have enough wines lined up to keep it full at all times as that is really the easiest way. You do not want to be draining, rinsing, using sulfur wicks. Also it is best to run 3-4 kit wines through first before you put any wine from fresh grapes in so they can stay longer. Also you do not want to want to put a kit wine into a barrel after the barrel has been exposed to wine that has gone through MLF as you do not want a kit wine to undergo MLF. So once its full, it stays full. One it has been exposed to MLB, nothing but fresh grape wine goes in after that.



Thanks! Seems to me that 2 barrels would be a good start. One for the fresh grapes and one for kits.


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## robie

My Vadai barrels each cost $180 to $190, if I remember.

I get:
23 liter barrel
wooden stand (a must for the barrel)
wooden bung
solid silicone bung
silicone bung with hole.


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## Arne

ibglowin said:


> 95% of us with the small ones are using Vadai Barrels Very good prices, Hungarian oak. Just make sure you have you have enough wines lined up to keep it full at all times as that is really the easiest way. You do not want to be draining, rinsing, using sulfur wicks. Also it is best to run 3-4 kit wines through first before you put any wine from fresh grapes in so they can stay longer. Also you do not want to want to put a kit wine into a barrel after the barrel has been exposed to wine that has gone through MLF as you do not want a kit wine to undergo MLF. So once its full, it stays full. One it has been exposed to MLB, nothing but fresh grape wine goes in after that.



Is that a new pic. Mike?? Leaves on the trees in back, Green on the grass down below. Its disgusting, sounds like it is gonna be all white and deep around here by Sat. Noon. LOL, Arne.


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## UBB

robie said:


> My Vadai barrels each cost $180 to $190, if I remember.
> 
> I get:
> 23 liter barrel
> wooden stand (a must for the barrel)
> wooden bung
> solid silicone bung
> silicone bung with hole.



does that price include the shipping?


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## robie

UBB said:


> does that price include the shipping?



Yes, to Colorado from California


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## ibglowin

That was last (early) Spring IIRC. I had just gotten Vadai #2 (on the left). Vadai #1 is on the right. Nothing prettier than a brand new barrel before you get it all covered in red wine stains!



Arne said:


> Is that a new pic. Mike?? Leaves on the trees in back, Green on the grass down below. Its disgusting, sounds like it is gonna be all white and deep around here by Sat. Noon. LOL, Arne.


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## ibglowin

I just paid $182 with shipping to NM for the 23L with the stand and a solid silicone stopper.

Don't ever use the oak bung that comes with the barrel as it will just get stuck and you will have a heck of a time trying to remove it. You will need a hammer and a pair of channel locks! 



UBB said:


> does that price include the shipping?


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## robie

ibglowin said:


> I just paid $182 with shipping to NM for the 23L with the stand and a solid silicone stopper.
> 
> Don't ever use the oak bung that comes with the barrel as it will just get stuck and you will have a heck of a time trying to remove it. You will need a hammer and a pair of channel locks!



Nothing beats a silicone bung. I pretty much threw the wooden bungs "in the corner".

I also ordered the special bugs that let pressure inside the barrel escape but nothing back in. I guess they are the barrel version of the dry air locks. I use them when I ferment in the barrel. They make a cool little "pith" sound when barrel is fermenting.

That photo of your barrels is really easy on the eyes. I love my barrels, red stains and all.


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## troutstix

Thanks everyone!
As I looked back on my notes (when breaking in the barrels), 12- 14 weeks seemed to be ideal. I was hoping that I could maybe cut down on time a little, but I guess that won't do! Maybe time to look at a bigger barrel, sooner rather than later(I am doubling up on several of the LE kits this year). Cheers.
MC


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## DrJayman

So to clarify 2 different topics here......(amount of time exposed to wine to become neutral and minimum microoxidation time).... Assume a 20L vadai which I find better suited for the decreasing returns from rackings.

A. 3-4 months of oak "usefullness"?

And...

B. 12 weeks minimal for good micro-oxidation?

thanks


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## robie

If I understand your question and understanding, A is wrong.

As the barrel gets older, the wine has to stay in it longer to get the same amount of oaking.

For a brand new barrel, 2 to (3 or 4) weeks is pretty much the longest the wine can stay in.

For the next batch, the time needed pretty much doubles. It doubles again for each subsequent batch. Eventually the barrel will no longer provide any oaking; it is then considered a neutral barrel.

Of course all the times depend on how much oak you really like and the particular wine being oaked. It is always necessary to taste test the wine for oak.

When the barrel is new and the first batch stays in only 2 to 4 weeks, that is not enough time for a good amount of micro-oxygenation (M.O.), which is around 3 to 4 months. 

Same is true for barrel concentration, which is the water and alcohol evaporating out, requiring more wine to be added back. Each time water and alcohol are replaced with wine, the contents of the barrel is richer and thicker, increasing the mouth-feel of the wine. 

M.O. and concentration are why I, personally really prefer smaller barrels when they become neutral. To add oaking, one can always add oak from chips, cubes, or spirals, but there is only one (practical) way for home wine makers to get the M.O. and concentration.

Mike may comment, but I believe the reason why he said 3 to 4 months for oaking is "the sweet spot", is because it is the same amount of time it takes for M.O and good concentration.

Hope this helps.


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## ibglowin

I am now at 4mo on two of my 3 Vadai's. Very nice amount of Micro-Ox at that level. You loose about 2 bottles of wine over that time frame to the angels share so pretty nice concentration as well. It will take you ~18mo to get there. With this years crush I will adding a few ounces of French oak beans to these barrels as well.


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## Boatboy24

If you're losing 2 bottles worth, are you topping up or adding marbles to limit headspace?


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## ibglowin

Always topping up.


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## robie

When it comes to red kits, there is nothing like putting them through a small barrel. It makes all the difference in the world. Trust me on this one, if you want a kit to be more like its commercial counterpart, learn to use a barrel for it.


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## DrJayman

Couple thoughts....

Robie- As for "A", I was actually looking for what most found to be that point where the barrell was neutral and no longer imparting oak. The earlier posts at least to me didn't clarify whether the 3-4 months was microoxidation time or that "neutral point." Mike, cleared that up. But thanks to all.... 

My first barrel has about 5 months of oak/wine contact on it, and there is a second on the way. Of course, batch to batch, the decrease in oak is immediately noticeable, so was curious how others were finding this progression.

As for topping up, here is a little tip I use with pretty good results. I got tired (the expense) of having a big portion of a bottle left over after topping, (even though it was nice to drink it.) I top up pretty much each week+, so this was getting cost-ineffective. I had some of those little screw top empty wine bottles that come in the cardboard 4-pack carrier and put them to use. I got a small funnel that wound fit into the neck of those bottles, and after topping from the big commerical bottle to the barrel I would sprinkle a "dust" of kmeta into those litte bottles, fill with wine to the top, replace the screw tops..........and then use those to top up in the coming weeks. With the exception of anything left over to drink any excess after topping with the mini bottles tasting a little like kmeta (due to earlier larger does of kmeta), it has worked very well with good results.


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## tonyt

+1 to what everyone said. I have one Vadia 23ltr. Its 30 months old in constant use. As of today its on kit 13. They now all stay 12 weeks. It adds little to no oak now.


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## sdb8440

Hi all,
Unless I missed it, how long does it seem to take for the barrel to become neutral? I just started my first barrel fermentation, a CC chardonay, of which I will do a second as well.

Thanks


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## ibglowin

Pretty darn neutral at the 2 year mark (continuously filled with different wines). It now time to hit it with some french oak cubes and or american oak. Can't wait to taste/smell the wines as they come out with a different bouquet/nose from the oak.


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## sdb8440

Thanks Mike

Scott


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## tonyt

Yep Mike's right. Two year mark found mine quite neutral. I have been adding my oak while in carboy rather than in the barrel. Not sure why I havent added any oak in barrel but I havent.


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## XPLSV

This has been an informative discussion. I've been homebrewing for awhile and my wife wanted to move into winemaking, which occurred this past fall. At present, she has a chardonnay (grapes) in a secondary glass carboy, a second run of the chardonnay in the secondary glass carboy (grapes plus kit combo), a straight kit of sauvignon with oak additions in the primary, and a batch of cabernet sauvignon (grapes) that is about to go into the glass carboy (just pressed this past weekend). I ordered her a 23L Vadai barrel as a surprise...it should be arriving this week. I realized up front that the oaking effect would be strong and the cabernet sauvignon could not remain in there too long, else it would be over-oaked. After reading this discussion and reflecting on the comments on the benefits of the micro-oxidation that is obtained from an oak neutral barrel, the advice to keep the barrel full (as opposed to trying to preserve it between batches), and the warning of not getting a kit wine into a barrel after exposure to MLT...I'm looking for suggestions on what might be a good path forward for use of this barrel and how to most effectively use it for her first batch of red grapes, which was my initial intent upon purchase. It could be that this barrel won't be in its prime for this season's batch of grapes and I might need to time it for next year. Perhaps we should get a red kit (or two) and run it through the barrel and keep the cabernet sauvignon in the glass carboy for an extended period and move it into the barrel several months down the road? I'm not sure whether we are that interested in fermenting in the barrel or just sticking with the aging/oaking, which was my primary interest when I placed the order. I think she is going to really like the barrel when the box arrives later this week and I'm sure we will enter into discussions on getting more. Would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions.


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## ibglowin

You could put both in the barrel. I would try and put as many kits in first with no MLF if you can instead of fresh grapes that have gone through MLF. If you put a kit in after having a wine that has undergone MLF into it you will need to keep the SO2 levels up (and they will drop like a rock in that barrel) as well as use Lysozyme to keep MLF at bay. I have a kit that I got last Spring (a very good LR Red Mountain Trio) that I am going to give this experiment a go at as all of my (3) barrels have had MLB in them now so no real choice and glass only is NOT a choice as well. 

Guess I will see but it won't be until this Winter/Spring that I put the kit into one of my barrels.


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## BeerAlchemist

ibglowin said:


> You could put both in the barrel. I would try and put as many kits in first with no MLF if you can instead of fresh grapes that have gone through MLF. If you put a kit in after having a wine that has undergone MLF into it you will need to keep the SO2 levels up (and they will drop like a rock in that barrel) as well as use Lysozyme to keep MLF at bay. I have a kit that I got last Spring (a very good LR Red Mountain Trio) that I am going to give this experiment a go at as all of my (3) barrels have had MLB in them now so no real choice and glass only is NOT a choice as well.
> 
> Guess I will see but it won't be until this Winter/Spring that I put the kit into one of my barrels.



Since you bring up the kit/MLF/barrel issue...what are your thoughts on relying on a barrel to hold MLF bacteria and using that for MLF so you don't have to buy a new culture every wine, just rack into an inoculated barrel and let things happen?


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## ibglowin

They say it works. Have not tried it myself. I have 3 Vadai's that have had wines that went through MLF in the carboy and then transferred into the barrel. If you rely on the barrel for MLF you would have to check for completion with a test as you would never see the tiny bubbles in a barrel.

Since my winery is now cooling off for the Fall/Winter period and wine temps are falling (now down to 63 this AM) I am going to add MLB to the wines from this year that are in Carboys now. I bought enough Heating Pads from Amazon ($13 each) so that I can set a carboy on a heating pad and warm it up to ~70 and get the MLF over with in ~3-4 weeks max vs last years that took almost 3 months to finish out at ~63 degrees. Then transfer one by one into barrels for oaking and concentration.


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## BeerAlchemist

ibglowin said:


> They say it works. Have not tried it myself. I have 3 Vadai's that have had wines that went through MLF in the carboy and then transferred into the barrel. If you rely on the barrel for MLF you would have to check for completion with a test as you would never see the tiny bubbles in a barrel.
> 
> Since my winery is now cooling off for the Fall/Winter period and wine temps are falling (now down to 63 this AM) I am going to add MLB to the wines from this year that are in Carboys now. I bought enough Heating Pads from Amazon ($13 each) so that I can set a carboy on a heating pad and warm it up to ~70 and get the MLF over with in ~3-4 weeks max vs last years that took almost 3 months to finish out at ~63 degrees. Then transfer one by one into barrels for oaking and concentration.



Alright, gonna have to experiment some day when I get to that point, right now I'm holding off on pulling the trigger on my first Vadai until I get a solution for temp/humidity control built. But, even then it will be only kit wines for a while. You did make sure to get the cheap, "burn your house down" heating pads without that annoying auto shut off feature right?


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## ibglowin

Yep, they have been on since Saturday. No shut off, 3 heat settings, 9ft cords. Lowest setting is perfect. Brew Belts are are ~$27 each. I have used both brew belts and heating pads. Both work well if you treat them wisely and with respect.

I started out with kits for 2 years then moved on to fresh grapes myself. Kits taught me a lot about the process and allowed me to experiment. Kits are easier for sure.

I am looking at getting my 4th Vadai. Looking at the 40L this time. Can put (2) 6 gallon carboys into it (almost) for only ~$20 more. Hard to beat.


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## BeerAlchemist

ibglowin said:


> Yep, they have been on since Saturday. No shut off, 3 heat settings, 9ft cords. Lowest setting is perfect. Brew Belts are are ~$27 each. I have used both brew belts and heating pads. Both work well if you treat them wisely and with respect.
> 
> I started out with kits for 2 years then moved on to fresh grapes myself. Kits taught me a lot about the process and allowed me to experiment. Kits are easier for sure.
> 
> I am looking at getting my 4th Vadai. Looking at the 40L this time. Can put (2) 6 gallon carboys into it (almost) for only ~$20 more. Hard to beat.



I cross my fingers and hope the GFI does its job and if that doesn't the panel backs me up if things go really bad...but, I have mine setup to a Ranco controller so I figure it doesn't stay on too long. However, I am working on a significant re-engineering of my setup that will use something other than heating pads so I don't have as much worry in the back of my head when I leave the house for work.

That 40L is tempting, but not in the cards yet. I'm looking at planting 25-30 pinot noir vines from cuttings, so when they start producing that bigger barrrel may be in my future as well.


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## ibglowin

Yea the 40L is something you grow into. You either have to do double batches of kits or venture out into fresh grapes. I am a little worried about keeping it full the first year but I have last years crush that I can keep the 23L going with for another 6mo or so and then its all down hill after that.


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## Greg_Salyer_13

Does anyone know where I can fin 23L American Oak Barrels at a good price? I found 20L at: http://www.barrelsonline.com/ for only $95 but they don't seem to offer 23L's and I have not been able to find them for less than $200. I am not a big fan of Hungarian Oak.


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## richmke

20 Liters is roughly 5.25 gallons. When making a 6 gallon batch, that gives you 3 liters to top off with. Given how much evaporates (750 ml per month?), I think that is a good thing.


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## Greg_Salyer_13

I normally have 12 to 30 gallons of each wine. I figured it would work out better with 6 gallon barrels to keep a rotation going through them. 

I am also curious about SO2 requirements when using a barrel. I usually just add 1/8th tsp of meta per carbouy with each racking after malo is done. Is it different when using a barrel? 

I have a bunch of last years wine that has not been oaked (been busy) but has been racked and meta'd a few times. I figured I would start with those and then move to this years stuff until I have it all oaked. That sound about right?


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## ibglowin

Ha ha ha. A small barrel will take your SO2 levels to zero in about 3 months time. You need to get an SO2 tester. Vinmetrica or A/O Rig of sorts.


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## Greg_Salyer_13

*Ph / ta / so2*

Ok, I have 2 brand new barrels prepped and ready for wine (one Vadai & one Am Oak). I also bought a Vinmetrica SC-300. I just tested my PH and TA of my Cynthiana (Norton) that has gone through MLF. PH is 3.68 and TA is 7.9 (.79%). 

I have been making wine for years but always relied on my taste alone for making any additions. This wine tastes good to me. Can anyone tell me what these numbers mean? Are they ok? Do I need to make any acid adjustments? What should I shoot for my Free SO2 before going into the barrel?


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## ibglowin

Use this chart:


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## Boatboy24

How does it taste? I'd say your pH is high, as is your TA. But if it tastes OK, that should be your criteria. 

Now that you know the pH and can measure your free SO2, you can be certain that you have the proper sulphite levels.


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