# Inert Gas



## Randoneur (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm sure this has been asked before, but here goes:
Can I use shielding gas to purge the head space? C25 gas which I believe is 75% argon and 25% carbon dioxide.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 28, 2012)

I use argon gas. Argon and Nitrogen can be used without any effects on the wine. C02 can be layerd on the wine to displace oxygen. Mixing C02 into the wine will give you a carbonated effect and can also give you an off flavor.


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## Wade E (Feb 28, 2012)

I cant see why you couldnt. Both are acceptable gasses. I agree with what Dan said but unless your wine is like 40 degress its neasr impossible to get C02 into the wine without presurizing the wine to pretty high #'s. The warmer the temp the more volume of C02 you need. Let me tell you I tried to carbonate beer at warm temps and it doesnt work to well. I would noyt be concerned with getting C02 into youir wine. Now, that being said C02 isnt as good an option as its not as heavy as argon and doesnt blanket as well. I mainly use C02 because I already have it here for my kegs.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 28, 2012)

I also have used CO2 as I have a tank on the shelf - ready to go 
but it is not the best to use though it does seem to work.

thanks steve
http://allinonewinepump.com/


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## jswordy (Feb 29, 2012)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00067EBKW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## joeswine (Feb 29, 2012)

*gasesssssssss*

HAVE BEEN USING DRY NITROGEN FOR YEARS AS A RULE OF THUMB.NO PROBLEMS WITH IT.


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## JohnT (Feb 29, 2012)

One Question (and not meaning to be rude).. 

Why?

if you are purging the air out of a carboy or demijohn, and then cap it with a fermentation trap, you will not be doing yourself much good. As barametric pressure and temperature changes, the airgap in you vessel will expand and contract. In effect, you vessel will "breathe". In only a short time, all of that inert gas will be gone.

If, on the other hand, you SEAL your vessel (solid stopper) then the air gap will remain the same. In other words, no new oxygen or bacteria will enter your vessel. If you add a touch of k-meta before you stopper, your wine will be fine. 

If the air gap is large, you should really consider a smaller vessel.

johnT.


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## joeswine (Feb 29, 2012)

*pressure*

 prior to toping off my carboy,they are stirred and then I add nitrogen ,under pressure,put in the stopper and air lock,already filled with water,and watch the water level after insertion and the level on the positive stays full ,on the outside or negitive side is stable, then how do i loss the gas pressure,i can gage the air pressure inside from the outside by the balance in the airlock,if my seal is good then thats what should happen.,at least thats the way i understand it,if I put nitrogen in at 20psi,i should not lose that much and if ampheric press is 14.5 then I should have greater pressure inside as long as my seal is good.Oxodation is the tell tail sign of air over wine ,I have never had oxodized wine.,at least thats how I see it.


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## Auburn-Bob (Feb 29, 2012)

I have a flask that I use for this purpose. I add water, then throw in some Alka-Seltzer tablets, and they make carbon dioxide.


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## SarahRides (Feb 29, 2012)

Auburn-Bob said:


> I have a flask that I use for this purpose. I add water, then throw in some Alka-Seltzer tablets, and they make carbon dioxide.



So why not just put alka seltzer in the wine?  Just kidding.


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## Flem (Mar 1, 2012)

Can anyone suggest the parts and estimated prices to put together an argon gas set-up? Thanks!


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## JohnT (Mar 1, 2012)

I still can't see the benefit. 

If there is a small amount of air in the carboy, then exactly what are you pertecting the wine from? If that little bit of air can harm your wine, then what exactly do you think that racking will do to your wine? 

On the flip side, I see no way that this can hurt the wine. It just seems to be unnecessary if your wine is balanced (PH) and has good tannins.


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## ibglowin (Mar 1, 2012)

You can usually find cylinders for sale or rent from a local welding supply as well as Argon gas itself. You only need a small cylinder not one of the huge ones. You will also need a good 2 stage regulator or a flowmeter. Best place to pick up those is eBay more than likely. Attach a 3-4 foot length of tubing to the outlet of the regulator/flowmeter and your ready to backfill. 

I use it to backfill headspace in carboys while I am waiting for it to clear after fining, I use it to backfill my 2L sep funnel that I fill up with gross lees that have been racked off. After letting them set for a day or so I can get as much as another full bottle of wine which is one less bottle I have to add as a top off wine. 

Also as I have small barrels I use it to back fill my top off bottle that I use to top off the barrel every week. Since your only adding 2-3 oz every week that wine would be completely oxidized after a week or so if I didn't backfill it each week after using it to top up the barrel.

Argon is the perfect solution for all those short term headspace problems around the winery.



Flem said:


> Can anyone suggest the parts and estimated prices to put together an argon gas set-up? Thanks!


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## ibglowin (Mar 1, 2012)

Looks like Harbor freight has both cylinders and regulators at pretty decent prices. 

Harbor Freight


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## Flem (Mar 1, 2012)

Thank you, Michael! 
Is there a particular pressure range I need to look for in a regulator or are they pretty standard?


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## ibglowin (Mar 1, 2012)

They are all pretty standard. Argon cylinders are usually filled to ~2000psi so just make sure your regulator goes that high on the first stage. 2nd stage you will want to go from 0-100 max or so. Again they are all pretty standard.


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## Flem (Mar 1, 2012)

Thanks, again!!


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## Sudz (Mar 4, 2012)

JohnT said:


> One Question (and not meaning to be rude)..
> 
> As barometric pressure and temperature changes, the airgap in you vessel will expand and contract. In effect, you vessel will "breathe". In only a short time, all of that inert gas will be gone.
> johnT.



Good points but I'm not sure of the breathing concern. Would not this only be true if the gas you used were lighter than air? 

The dead space environment is basically dead air with very minimal movement due principally to the barometric breathing you pointed out. Even if the breathing were sufficient enough to pull air in and out past the trap, only the gas at the top would be effected to any extent in a modest sized carboy.

Any heavier gas would simply lay on top of the wine and assure protection even if some oxygen were to find it's way into the dead space. For oxygen to reach the wine, you would need to remove or exchange a significant amount of the shielding gas which will not occur if it is the heavier of the two. Some breathing exchange from the top gas layer "might" occur but this would only serve to exchange air with air, leaving the heavier gas to do it's job.

Now none of this holds true "if" the shielding gas mixes naturally with air upon contact. If this occurs, your description would be absolutely true. So I guess the question is, will argon maintain a separate layer in the dead space or become an equally dispersed component of any air which may find it's way into the dead space environment. 

Unfortunately I don't know enough about argon to answer this question. It does exist naturally in the air we breathe as opposed to laying on my living room floor. But it also shields out air during TIG welding implying the two don't readily mix, at least to some extent.

Maybe someone could help us to further understand this issue? 

I for one could benefit from using a shielding gas to eliminate air contact during conditioning. I've been using CO2 but have become convinced, CO2 may not remain viable for long periods as it does become absorbed by the wine. I have argon available and can switch to using it without much pain. But I don't want to go down this path unless it's truly effective.

Filling the dead space with wine or water is probably the best approach but unfortunately all my carboys are 6 1/2 gal which makes for a large dead space to fill. Hence I'd like to use a shielding gas.


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## joeswine (Mar 4, 2012)

*A guess by any other name*

 NITROGEN, ARGON, OR ANY OTHER INERT GAS LAYER DOES THE TRICK, IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE USING, LIKE WAS STATED THIS IS FOR SHORT-TERM NOT FOR THE LONG HAUL, BUT IT DOES WORK AND IT WORKS WELL.


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## JohnT (Mar 5, 2012)

joeswine said:


> NITROGEN, ARGON, OR ANY OTHER INERT GAS LAYER DOES THE TRICK, IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE USING, LIKE WAS STATED THIS IS FOR SHORT-TERM NOT FOR THE LONG HAUL, BUT IT DOES WORK AND IT WORKS WELL.



Joe, 

stop yelling at me (LOL). 

IMHO, this is overkill and a lot of worry over nothing. It is a lot of money to spend to replace only a few cubic inches of head space that will not effect your wine in any noticable. 

A well made wine will simply not oxidize when in contact with only a few cubic inches of air. In fact, that limited amount of air may serve to reduce the tanins (on a minimal scale) to make your wine softer. 

If your worried about bacteria or some form of contamination, then I would suggest that you add a pinch of k-meta to the wine (each time you open the carboy) and that the fermentation trap is loaded with k-meta solution (to sterilize any air comming into the carboy over time).


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## Sudz (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks guys....


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## wjdonahue (Mar 5, 2012)

Alka Seltzer? Now there is an idea, produce CO2 and at the same time treat the hangover that the wine MAY produce (laughing)

I have to disagree with Wade (just a little). 

There was a study done at Stellenbosh a lot of years ago that studied the effects of CO2 on the finished wine. They looked at dissolved CO2 and CO2 used to cap the barrels. Though not always distinguishible in the taste, their lab studies showed that most of the CO2 in the barrel caps "disappeard." Further testing showed that this CO2 had reacted with water in the wine and produced Carbonic Acid which was introduced into the wine. 
The best bet, then, is to use Argon or Nitrogen in it's pure form. Though the amount of CO2 we are talking about (and the resultant amount of Carbonic Acid) is VERY small, I now use only Argon with a solid stopper or bung. 

Bill


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## wjdonahue (Mar 5, 2012)

Mike

The Argon Cylinders have a different thread pattern only used on Argon Tanks. The regulators we normally use are for CO2 and have a completely different thread pattern. Also the Argon is pressurized to a much higher pressure in the tank and is well beyond the top pressures on the normal regulator gauges sold in wine stores. You can by an adapter for the thread problem at any welding supply store. The regulator itself will handle the increased pressure, you just don't get any readable results until the tank is almost half empty.


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## roblloyd (Mar 5, 2012)

Not sure if these are the same size as the CO2 dispenser posted earlier but amazon has NO2 cartridges.
http://www.amazon.com/UltraPure-Whip-Cream-Chargers-Boxes/dp/B003Z2H7SI/ref=pd_sbs_k_8


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## Calamity Cellars (Mar 6, 2012)

Not a regular on this site but I have to jump in on this topic.

CO2 - CO2 is readily absorbed into wine and very quickly attains equilibrium based on temperature and pressure. Above the wine it is the gaseous form of CO2 but in the wine it is Carbonic Acid. It will affect the taste, TA, and pH. A good example of the flavor effect is try drinking a flat coke. Once all the CO2 leaves the beverage as CO2 gas the coke tastes sickening sweet because there is no carbonic acid to offset the flavor. For this reason using CO2 to purge head space is not ideal.

Layering - Argon and Nitrogen will not layer on the surface of the wine. The idea of using Argon over other gasses because it has a higher molecular weight and therefore will settle or layer on the surface of the wine is a myth. If you are using an inert gs to protect wine what you are doing is purging the head space and therefore excluding O2 containing air. My recommendation is Nitrogen since it has the same air purging abilities but costs less than Argon.

Need to purge - A previous poster has stated a couple of times that he sees no need to purge head space. I disagree and I agree. Depends on the size of the space. All wine needs some O2 to develop. Both white and red wines can become reductive if starved of O2. One of the chief benefits of a barrel is the effect of exposing the wine to small amounts of wine slowly over time. On the other hand, wine can become oxidized if exposed to too much O2. The number one flaw by far in home wine making is oxidation. He is right that moving the wine to a smaller container and minimizing head space is the ideal solution but purging the space with Nitrogen is a good way to go also. A good rule of thumb is to purge the space with 5 times the head space volume to ensure the O2 has been reduced to nominal levels. For that reason a flow meter is much better than the standard welding pressure regulator. I use several of these ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/HTP-Argon-C...508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b74c4d3c ) in my wine making and they work extremely well.

Sorry to be so long winded.


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## JohnT (Mar 6, 2012)

Calamity Cellars said:


> Need to purge - A previous poster has stated a couple of times that he sees no need to purge head space. I disagree and I agree. Depends on the size of the space. All wine needs some O2 to develop. Both white and red wines can become reductive if starved of O2. One of the chief benefits of a barrel is the effect of exposing the wine to small amounts of wine slowly over time. On the other hand, wine can become oxidized if exposed to too much O2. The number one flaw by far in home wine making is oxidation. He is right that moving the wine to a smaller container and minimizing head space is the ideal solution but purging the space with Nitrogen is a good way to go also. A good rule of thumb is to purge the space with 5 times the head space volume to ensure the O2 has been reduced to nominal levels. For that reason a flow meter is much better than the standard welding pressure regulator. I use several of these ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/HTP-Argon-C...508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b74c4d3c ) in my wine making and they work extremely well.




Good summary CC, but I think that you miss my point. They are talking about purging just the few cubic inches of air left at the top of a carboy. This amount of air will in no way oxidize 5 gallons of wine left in a carboy. In fact, as you said, there is a benefit to micro oxidation. 

All I am saying is that it seems that they are worried over absolutly nothing and are talking about the purchase of flow meters, cylinders, and gas. This, IMHO, is an awful waste of money (that could be spent on grapes or kits). 

johnT.


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## ibglowin (Mar 6, 2012)

I really think the OP and others are talking about more than just a few inches of headspace here. I believe they are actually talking about the large headspace that you have after you rack off the gross lees. That can be as much as 2-3 bottles with these crazy Italian carboys these days. Thats a lot of O2 especially for a White. 

Its silly to top up before the wine has cleared (and I have done that as well) only to lose even more after it has cleared and now you have to rack the fines only to top off again with even more wine.....

I like to "backfill" or "purge" the headspace with Argon after I have racked off the gross lees and added the fining agents and I am waiting a week (or sometimes 2 weeks) to clear. This is for kits that are stubborn to clear on their own. Wine from fresh grapes tends clear on its own without the need for much (if any) fining agents.

Totally agree about the need for some controlled micro-ox in wines, especially reds that live (or lived) their entire life in a glass carboy. I invested in small barrels just for this reason. The reds are so closed (from a lack of any oxidation) that they need a week to open up after you uncork one before they start to show their true varietal character....

Just my $0.02.



JohnT said:


> They are talking about purging just the few cubic inches of air left at the top of a carboy. This amount of air will in no way oxidize 5 gallons of wine left in a carboy.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 6, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> Looks like Harbor freight has both cylinders and regulators at pretty decent prices.
> 
> Harbor Freight



Be careful when purshasing tanks from harbor freight as alot of people who refill tanks will only fill thir tanks or the tank has to be certified as well. Just look into it prior to purshasing one

thanks steve
http://allinonewinepump.com/


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## ibglowin (Mar 6, 2012)

The other thing is many places only swap out tanks. So if you go out and buy a brand new one, you will be in for a big surprise when they want to take your new cylinder and give you back on old rusty beat up one......

Check before purchasing on what your local supplier can/will do.

You may wish to purchase a cheap used one locally instead of buying a new one.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 6, 2012)

Calamity Cellars said:


> Not a regular on this site but I have to jump in on this topic.
> 
> CO2 - CO2 is readily absorbed into wine and very quickly attains equilibrium based on temperature and pressure. Above the wine it is the gaseous form of CO2 but in the wine it is Carbonic Acid. It will affect the taste, TA, and pH. A good example of the flavor effect is try drinking a flat coke. Once all the CO2 leaves the beverage as CO2 gas the coke tastes sickening sweet because there is no carbonic acid to offset the flavor. For this reason using CO2 to purge head space is not ideal.
> 
> ...




Lots of good info here. Thanks for posting and stop in more often!


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## JohnT (Mar 7, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> I really think the OP and others are talking about more than just a few inches of headspace here. I believe they are actually talking about the large headspace that you have after you rack off the gross lees. That can be as much as 2-3 bottles with these crazy Italian carboys these days. Thats a lot of O2 especially for a White.
> 
> Its silly to top up before the wine has cleared (and I have done that as well) only to lose even more after it has cleared and now you have to rack the fines only to top off again with even more wine.....
> 
> ...



If that's the case, and the amount of headspace is large, then it is still a waste of time and money. If they are sealing the carboy with a fermentation trap, then any inert gas you inject will be short lived. 

As the carboy goes through temperature variations, the gas inside the carboy will expand and contract alternating the internal pressure. As the pressure changes, the gas will be expelled through the f-trap (when pressure increases) and outside air will be drawn in (as pressure decreases). Unless the carboy is given a pressure tight seal, purging the carboy with inert gas is a waste of time!


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## ibglowin (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree with you that changes in atmospheric pressures and or carboy temperatures do in fact make the carboy "breath". For that reason after I backfill anything I use a solid stopper.


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## Calamity Cellars (Mar 7, 2012)

JohnT said:


> If that's the case, and the amount of headspace is large, then it is still a waste of time and money. If they are sealing the carboy with a fermentation trap, then any inert gas you inject will be short lived.
> 
> As the carboy goes through temperature variations, the gas inside the carboy will expand and contract alternating the internal pressure. As the pressure changes, the gas will be expelled through the f-trap (when pressure increases) and outside air will be drawn in (as pressure decreases). Unless the carboy is given a pressure tight seal, purging the carboy with inert gas is a waste of time!



It is absolutely not a waste of time. The number one wine flaw in amateur wines is oxidation...by far. Any efferts made to reduce oxidation are never a waste of time.

You do make some good points that the winemaker needs to address. In an ideal world, which is rarely the case, wine should not be kept in a situation where temperature fluctuates. This goes for bottled wine and prebottled wine. Everytime temperature changes there is pressure created on the sealing mechanism. If this is a cork in a bottle air will move past the cork. If this is an airlock on a carboy then, as you stated, it is very easy to push the purging gas out and suck air back in. The winemaker in this situation (because we can't always maintain temprature as we should) will have to be vigilant with repurging the headspace. If the carboy has more that an inch or two of headspace in the neck then the wine is at great risk of oxidation. Of course there are no absolutes. An aromatic riesling will be ruined with a small amount of o2 exposure but a big meaty tannic cabernet sauvignon needs more o2 to develop, thus the high end cabs typicaly spen 36 months in a barrel.

I am concerned with your advice that all purging of headspace with inert gas is a waste of time. You are correct in a few instances but definitely wrong in many more.

BTW, the original post was a question of using a 75% argon 25% co2 mix and did not mention the amount of headspace he was trying to protect.


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## JohnT (Mar 7, 2012)

Calamity Cellars said:


> It is absolutely not a waste of time. The number one wine flaw in amateur wines is oxidation...by far. Any efferts made to reduce oxidation are never a waste of time.
> 
> You do make some good points that the winemaker needs to address. In an ideal world, which is rarely the case, wine should not be kept in a situation where temperature fluctuates. This goes for bottled wine and prebottled wine. Everytime temperature changes there is pressure created on the sealing mechanism. If this is a cork in a bottle air will move past the cork. If this is an airlock on a carboy then, as you stated, it is very easy to push the purging gas out and suck air back in. The winemaker in this situation (because we can't always maintain temprature as we should) will have to be vigilant with repurging the headspace. If the carboy has more that an inch or two of headspace in the neck then the wine is at great risk of oxidation. Of course there are no absolutes. An aromatic riesling will be ruined with a small amount of o2 exposure but a big meaty tannic cabernet sauvignon needs more o2 to develop, thus the high end cabs typicaly spen 36 months in a barrel.
> 
> ...



CC, 

Purging a carboy? How much will it cost in equipment and gas to purch a couple of CCs of air out of a max cap 5 gal jug???? Last time I checked, a 5 lb gas cylindar was abount $90, and a regulator was about $40. Not sure what the reminder (hose, clamps, and the gas itself) will cost. This is a LOT of money to protect 5 gallons of wine that may or may not need protecting!

Re-read my last post. I am trying to say that it is a complete waste of time unless the carboy has a pressure seal, locking the wine away from any new air. 

About oxidation: It is not just oxygen that causes oxidation. If the wine is PH balanced, and has a good load on tannins, then the wine will not be so vunerable to oxidation. In such cases, a little exposure to air will NOT automatically oxidize the wine. In fact, it ends up being very benificial. I have been making wine for over 25 years and have never needed to purge my wine with inert gas. Last year, I won 35 medals in winemaking competitions without inert gas. 

My advice is the same. Save your money and put it towards getting more must! If you still think that using inert gas is money well spent, then we will have to "agree to disagree".


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## robie (Mar 7, 2012)

Well, I haven't tossed in my two-cents worth, so I am feeling left out.

Just kidding, but here goes mine.

I think one of the reasons why many of us have to decant our home made wines so long, compared to commercial equivalents, is because we go to such extremes to keep oxygen away from our wines. They really didn't get enough of it during the wine making process.

That's not to doubt what was said about the main problem with home made wines in contests is they are oxidized, which I have no problem believing. (Those guys/gals probably haven't tuned into winemakingtalk.com, otherwise they would better know how to avoid oxidation...  )

As a side, I think getting some micro-oxidation is one of the main reasons why kit wines improve so much in the barrel. It really helps to open up the wine. 

Yes, due to atmospheric pressure changes and temperature fluctuations, the carboy does breath. So, if something like argon is added, it can get pushed out and air drawn back in. Remember that argon is heavier than air, so the first thing that gets pushed out of a recently purged carboy will be the air, which is above the argon. Later, more air will be drawn back into the carboy, but the remaining argon will remain under the air and on top of the wine. This action leaves much of the argon still in place, but one cannot guaranty this. This is why it is so necessary to purge again on some sort of regular basis.

I like to save my sediment in a clean, clear glass jar and let it settle out. Once settled, the clean wine can be drawn off the top and used for topping off. This presents a problem. Sometimes it takes a week or more for the sediment to settle. Until the sediment settles, unless you go ahead and top off the carboy with other wine, it sets exposed to air.

If you do go ahead and top off that carboy with other wine, when you finally do draw off the sediment, it won't have a place to be used right away, so it will have to be somehow preserved until it can be used. How do you do that unless the vessel in which that small amount of wine is stored, is also topped off? Keeping it cold will help, but not for long.

The answer for me is this:
Save the racked off sediment in a small glass jar; purge the jar with argon and seal it. For the carboy waiting to be topped off, go ahead and purge it with argon, too. Once the sediment in the jar has settled, draw off the clean wine and put it in the carboy, which was purged with argon. Add a little more argon to the carboy for safety's sake. Purge the carboy again about every week or two.

Argon will not be absorbed into your wine, but CO2 can and will be absorbed eventually. After going to the trouble of degassing, last thing I want to do is add more CO2 to my wine. This is why I would prefer not using CO2 for purging my wine. This is just my opinion, though.

I guess using argon could be considered expensive, but buying all that commercial wine, just for top-off, also adds up. Even though the added commercial wine is not wasted, it still adds to the cost of the batch being made.

In the end, it come down to personal preference. I think every argument made, pro and con, is valid... for the person who made that argument.

Nice thing about our forum is we get to hear all sides, then we can make up our own mind. No better way to grown and learn than that.


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## JohnT (Mar 7, 2012)

robie said:


> Well, I haven't tossed in my two-cents worth, so I am feeling left out.
> 
> That's not to doubt what was said about the main problem with home made wines in contests is they are oxidized, which I have no problem believing. (Those guys/gals probably haven't tuned into winemakingtalk.com, otherwise they would better know how to avoid oxidation...  )



I know what oxidized wine tastes like. Believe me, I know. I have not had an oxidized wine in more then 10 years. This is without using argon. 

Using argon, and thinking that this will prevent oxidation is a pipe dream. 90% of oxidized wine is caused by the wine being not chemically balanced. Monitor your PH and tannins, and forget about argon!


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## joeswine (Mar 7, 2012)

*Expense*

 As a heating and air-conditioning mechanic, after the vessel purchase and the regulator, gas itself is very in- expensive to refill, and goes on very, very long way, so whether you use argon or nitrogen or nothing at all. However, you get to the end result, that's how You get there, you set your own course and do your own thing, and what ever works best for you is what works. That's the difference between us winemakers we all get there in the end, I don't know how,] it's a mystery.

]


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## Runningwolf (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree monitor you S02 but 80% of home winemakers do not have the ability to do that. In that case you go back to the standard of 1/4 tsp every three months or so. I have yet to check any of my wine and have it over in S02. 

I am a firm believer in having argon around. Case in point; this year RJS came out with a 3 gallon port kit. You do not add the flavoring until just before bottling. What do you do with that extra head space? ARGON!!! or any other filler you may use like marbles. I do not wish to age it in several smaller vessals so that is not an option. I don't think most of us are talking about using it as a long term thing but just to get us through to the next step.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 7, 2012)

Incidently I think this is a good thread with a lot of information and opinions. I look forward to any other comments and feelings being posted respectfully.


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## Calamity Cellars (Mar 7, 2012)

JohnT said:


> CC,
> 
> Purging a carboy? How much will it cost in equipment and gas to purch a couple of CCs of air out of a max cap 5 gal jug???? Last time I checked, a 5 lb gas cylindar was abount $90, and a regulator was about $40. Not sure what the reminder (hose, clamps, and the gas itself) will cost. This is a LOT of money to protect 5 gallons of wine that may or may not need protecting!
> 
> ...



Uhhhh.....I am not going to argue with you. Congratulations on all of your medals and 25 years of winemaking. 

If you choose to not take very common precautions that is your business. To me that is like saying, "Hey, I haven't worn my seat belt for 25 years and never had a problem." So the advice is don't wear seatbelts? Taking precautions is there for the time that you need it not the 25 years that you didn't.


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## Calamity Cellars (Mar 7, 2012)

What would be ideal is to make enough wine that you don't have any headspace. I love the idea of adding welches or some other grape juice to your kit juice or must pre-ferment so that you make sure you have enough wine to keep those carboys full.


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## Wade E (Mar 7, 2012)

So many good points here. KI will step in and say I make a bunch of beer and a bunch of wine. and I can taste small amounts of C02 in wine. When I say small amounts I mean amounts beyond the norm. There shopuild always be some in wine as any wine without any at all would fall flat on its face. Anything over a loittle though and it wil have a bite that doesnt fit IMO withb any dark red grape wine and I take extreme measures to make sure there isnt any of that "extra C02" in my wine! Now in beer making which I am pretty darn familiar with I use C02 to carbonate it and I can tell you that just letting some on top wouldnt do a damn thing especially at room temp. I know this because until I got the fridge downstairs I had a really hard time carbing beer and wine. The warmer the temp the harder it is to carbonate just as it degases easier at warmwer temps. At about 35* its pretty easy though but still needs to really be pressurized to do so. I can see maybe a little getting into the wine at say 35* and the C02 layered on toip but at 70* it aint going. That being said its not that heavy at all and isnt going to stay in your carboy much either unless you use a solid bung and if there is any pressure changes (temp or barometric) then maybe a tiny bit will get into your wine but that would be easy enough to get out with one quick hit.


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## JohnT (Mar 8, 2012)

Calamity Cellars said:


> Uhhhh.....I am not going to argue with you. Congratulations on all of your medals and 25 years of winemaking.
> 
> If you choose to not take very common precautions that is your business. To me that is like saying, "Hey, I haven't worn my seat belt for 25 years and never had a problem." So the advice is don't wear seatbelts? Taking precautions is there for the time that you need it not the 25 years that you didn't.



I reject your comparison, and would substitue my own.. 

It is like saying that over the last 25 years, I never... 

1) crammed the inside of my car with styrofoam peanuts, 
2) surrounded the outside of my car in bubble wrap, 
3) kept my driving speed under 10 mph
4) avoided driving on New Jersey highways

and I am still alive, having never died in an accident. (knock on wood). 
quite simply, overkill!

As far as using argon being common. I am not so sure. I know a lot of winemakers (both professional and amateur) and not one of them use argon (or any other inert gas).


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## JohnT (Mar 8, 2012)

Calamity Cellars said:


> What would be ideal is to make enough wine that you don't have any headspace. *I love the idea of adding welches* or some other grape juice to your kit juice or must pre-ferment so that you make sure you have enough wine to keep those carboys full.



Runningwolf / Wade, 

I give up! 

johnT.


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## grapeman (Mar 8, 2012)

JohnT and others, we all have our own style and methods for making wine. We all need to respect our rights to individuality. Because you have done your winemaking sucessfully for 25 years without failure is great, but others have done it sucessfully for just as many or more years using other methods. What is important is to figure out what works best for us.

I have saeen some people with great luck never have any problems and their methods are less than ideal. I have also seen a few places that try to make good wine,use less than ideal methods and their wine turns out bad. They then wonder what could have possibly gone wrong. One winery I visited (not commercial-yet) had badly oxidized wine and couldn't figure out why. They use no sulphites and do not fill any of the tanks or carboys full and do not top off with inert gasses. My recommendatio to them was to use the proper amount of free S02, and get them topped up or racked to smaller containers next time they make the wine. A good share of this last years wine is already ruined beyond drinking.

Do whatever it takes for YOU to sucessfully make wine.


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## winemaker_3352 (Mar 8, 2012)

I agree with Rich - just because one person has made wine successfully for a long time doesn't mean that is the only way to make wine.

People make wine the way it suits their needs. We need to focus on helping members with the issues that they have - sure recommendations are always great to forum members - some may not be aware of certain items or steps in their wine making process. But that doesn't mean they are wrong...


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## Wade E (Mar 8, 2012)

Winemaking is like the world, there are many ways to get to a place. Its also like a box of chocolates...…bwaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaa


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## robie (Mar 8, 2012)

Yep, this is not a contest, just a place for each of us to express our own opinions... without stepping on the opinions of others.

Let's keep it that way.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 8, 2012)

Originally Posted by Calamity Cellars 
What would be ideal is to make enough wine that you don't have any headspace. I love the idea of adding welches or some other grape juice to your kit juice or must pre-ferment so that you make sure you have enough wine to keep those carboys full.



JohnT said:


> Runningwolf / Wade,
> 
> I give up!
> 
> johnT.









LMAO glad to see some humor. I agree with the above posters. I asked a winery owner from another state last week how they tested S02. He said they usually don't. I just though OMG. Some of you might remember I bought a bunch of carboys last year of Craigs list because the owner was going to start using plastic one gallon milk jugs. AGGGGGG

Now wih all that said, we haven't heard from Sir's yet. He makes awesome wine with no chemicals or yeast. From what I understan he uses strickly wild yeast. In the fall as Im pouring juice for customers (winemakers) and talk to them I am amazed everytime I hear they do the exact same thing as Sirs. There are only a few, but they are out there. Again if it worke for you and you're happy keep doing it. We'll show you the industry standard and like the old saying goes "there's more then one way to skin a chicken".


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## Flem (Mar 8, 2012)

When this thread first started I thought, Great!---I've been considering getting an argon tank to use in lieu of topping off, and this will give me the answers I need. NOT!!! It has only confused me more. I was hoping for concurrence on the subject but it appears as though there are many varied opinions on the subject. All good opinions I might add. However, does anyone know if argon really works?


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## robie (Mar 8, 2012)

Flem said:


> When this thread first started I thought, Great!---I've been considering getting an argon tank to use in lieu of topping off, and this will give me the answers I need. NOT!!! It has only confused me more. I was hoping for concurrence on the subject but it appears as though there are many varied opinions on the subject. All good opinions I might add. However, does anyone know if argon really works?



Yes, it works well. It works best for shorter term protection. If you intend to bulk age for many months or longer, you will be better served to go ahead and properly top off the wine with a like wine.

The confusing stems from many different experiences and opinions. Just consider the evidence and choose your direction!!! If you can't decide, don't buy argon for now.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 8, 2012)

Mike it is no different then discussing which is better carboys or better bottles. It's really a personal preference. Yes argon works and that is why most wineries use either that or nitrogen. You read my example of the Coffee Port and thats a perfect example for using it. Np i do not use it everytime I rack or in every carboy. When I do need it though, I have it!


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## Runningwolf (Mar 8, 2012)

Dang Robie you're quick tonight! LOL


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## digitaleye (Mar 8, 2012)

If you're talking about making wine in carboys why not reduce head space with glass beads/marbles? Using a "like wine" seems fine but if you're a purist it seems like another option. Just sayin


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## Julie (Mar 9, 2012)

digitaleye said:


> If you're talking about making wine in carboys why not reduce head space with glass beads/marbles? Using a "like wine" seems fine but if you're a purist it seems like another option. Just sayin



Yes that is an option and I believe there are members here who use that method, plus there are members who have various sizes of carboys that they rack down into as well.


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## JohnT (Mar 9, 2012)

ABSOFREAKINLUTLY! 

Topoff or send to smaller jug is a far cheaper and more viable solution!


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## Randoneur (Mar 9, 2012)

Flem said:


> When this thread first started I thought, Great!---I've been considering getting an argon tank to use in lieu of topping off, and this will give me the answers I need. NOT!!! It has only confused me more. I was hoping for concurrence on the subject but it appears as though there are many varied opinions on the subject. All good opinions I might add. However, does anyone know if argon really works?



I don't think I am confused by the posts on this thread, but I'm sure not everyone will agree with my conclusions. Three things I have gotten out of the thread:
*It is a convience tool.* JohnT's point is well taken. I don't need to do this to make good wine. If I don't have the money to spend or if I simply don't want to use it, I can still make good wine. Proper topping up and SO2 are what is required. Good examples of how to use it were given, so yes it would come in handy at times (like my vacuum pump does).
*Several different gasses can be used.* Argon, Nitrogen, CO2. Different people use them. So for my original question, Argon 75 CO2 25 will work, although maybe its not as ideal as Argon. I don't have a risk of carbonating the wine with the CO2 that is in it.
*Purging with inert gas does work.* The gasses suggested are heavier than air, so gently putting a layer on top of the wine will protect it. I can use it short term with no problem. Long term, it may eventually be dispersed, so I need to keep adding purge gas or plug the hole. 

Note: Again - Yes it does work. There is no doubt that heavier than air gasses will layer under normal air. Many people have died when entering an industrial tank to do maintenance work where heavy gasses were present in the area. Heavier than air gasses easily push all the oxygen out of a floor installed tank. Just because you can't see it, doen't mean it doesn't flow like water.


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## robie (Mar 9, 2012)

digitaleye said:


> If you're talking about making wine in carboys why not reduce head space with glass beads/marbles? Using a "like wine" seems fine but if you're a purist it seems like another option. Just sayin



This is a common method. Problem is, when you have to fill a space larger than a 750ml bottle or two of wine, it takes a lot of marbles or glass beads to do the job. I started out doing this, but have moved away from it to topping off with a like wine.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 9, 2012)

I am having very good sucess rate on this new product, I came up with.
no need for gas - marbles - or excessive air in the carboy

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f3/carboy-air-space-bladder-trial-version-18124/

Thanks steve
http://allinonewinepump.com/


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## robie (Mar 9, 2012)

I got mine in the mail, but haven't tried it yet. Will do this weekend.
I am looking forward to trying it. If it works out, it will make a big difference in the future concerning how I top off.

Thanks, Steve.


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## joeswine (Mar 9, 2012)

*The next step*

 I think the answer to the question is, what do you think, we all get their in own way, I for one use dry nitrogen, it works. If you think any of these statements will help you in topping off, then the answer is given . Try it, that's what this form is all about opinions, questions, answers, and more questions , you have to make your own judgment.


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## Calamity Cellars (Mar 9, 2012)

Randoneur said:


> *Purging with inert gas does work.* The gasses suggested are heavier than air, so gently putting a layer on top of the wine will protect it. I can use it short term with no problem. Long term, it may eventually be dispersed, so I need to keep adding purge gas or plug the hole.
> 
> Note: Again - Yes it does work. There is no doubt that heavier than air gasses will layer under normal air. Many people have died when entering an industrial tank to do maintenance work where heavy gasses were present in the area. Heavier than air gasses easily push all the oxygen out of a floor installed tank. Just because you can't see it, don't mean it doesn't flow like water.



This is false. The gasses you are talking about that displace oxygen in low places are not ideal gasses. Ideal gasses will evenly mix and there will not be a layering effect. Using Argon or Nitrogen - the two readily available gasses that will not carbonate your wine are for purging the entire headspace and will not layer on top of the wine.

As to using CO2 - the statements about atmospheric pressure & room temperature not carbonating the wine are essentially true. At a given pressure and temperature the co2 gas will reach an equilibrium with carbonic acid in the wine but at room temperature and atmospheric pressure this equilibrium leans heavily toward Co2 gas and not carbonic acid. This is why pop & beer go flat once opened. However, wine is heavy on CO2 after fermentation and part of the aging process is degassing. If the headspace is filled with co2 then this process will be slowed...how much is hard to say.

If all you have is CO2 or the blend referenced above then use it because the big goal is to protect the wine. If you are going out and buying a tank then choose Nitrogen as it will not have any carbonating effect and it's cheaper than Argon. Not a whole lot cheaper but since there is absolutely no benefit to the heavier argon then you might as well save a few dollars.


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