# Didn't want to highjack someone elses thread so...



## shoebiedoo (Jun 23, 2013)

I have 2 batches this question pertains to. A Kamil Chardonnay (French sterile juice) and 3 buckets of Chilean Malbec (Juice). Each batch is in 3 carboys and are maker C1,2 &3 for the Chardonnay and M1, 2 & 3 for the Malbec.




the Chardonnay has already had 1 attempt and an MLF (using White Labs) at 75 degrees. This was done quite some time ago but I just now have purchased a chorography kit. As you can see, this was unsuccessful. this has been cleared and aged but I'm not sure if I should bottle it OR ad sorbate. I have some Enoferm I picked up from Morewinemaking.com and am thinking trying another crack at MLF. unless this would be a mistake for some reason.

The Malbec, as you can see, had one carboy already go through spontaneous MLF but the other 2 did not. These 3 carboys will go into a 15 gal barrel for aging but not until August at the earliest. will I still have chance of all of it completing MLF or should I inoculate these as well. I ask because the Enoferm is enough for 65 gallons so I have plenty to go around. 

I also have bucket of Pinot Gris that just fermented to dry. based on another thread here, im getting worried that these are on the same shelf, should I be worried or will adding sulfite be enough?! 

Thanks in advance 

Shoe


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## Turock (Jun 27, 2013)

Well, you do have SOME conversion that happened, but still alot of malic. There are several reasons for a failed MLF so to be sure to cover all bases I'll mention them here: alcohol content above 14% ABV, too high or too low a temp for the MLB,too much oxygen content due to whipping O2 into the wine when stirring the MLB,too much SO2, PH too low,insufficient nutrient,low MLB count.

If you have none of these conditions, then we've found that some of these new MLB cultures are just SLOW and sometimes become stuck even under ideal conditions. We experienced this on our last Pinot Noir MLF. We re-inoculated with Bacchus and it took right off and completed. So I would re-inoculate if I was you.

Whatever you do---DO NOT sorbate an MLF. The MLB will turn it into a geranium flavor. It's never recommended to sorbate any MLF'd wine.

Be sure you have the Pinot Gris properly sulfited so you don't get an MLF going in it. We like to isolate our MLF's away from the winery to be sure we don't get the MLB as a resident in the winery.


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## Runningwolf (Jun 27, 2013)

As Turock said none of them has completed mlf all the way yet. I agree with everything he says. I had a Chardonnay I tried to put through mlf and after 9 months I gave up, sulfited it and bottled it. It tasted great at bottling. Two months later I opened a bottle to try. I felt like I had a swarm of bumble bees buzzing around on my tongue. Guess what? It was finishing mlf. I am watching the corks every few days for any signs of popping. Turock my question to you is, Would you open each bottle in about 3-4 weeks to release any excess C02 and recork or just leave them as is. I never had this happen before and my thoughts are recork.


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## robie (Jun 27, 2013)

If you have since added sulfites to the wine, it may be at too high a level to try to start another mlf. I would check that it is low enough, as well as check all the other factors mentioned above. If any of them are out of range, the mlf likely will not start.

If you haven't added sulfites (stabilized), depending on high long ago the wine had been fermenting, you won't want to wait too long to stabilize it, so whether or not it is still safe to do an mlf, is something to consider.

Make sure the wine is topped off during all this phase.

I'll ask, when did the wine finish fermenting? Did you already stabilize with sulfites? What is the free SO2 level?


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 27, 2013)

OK, yeah I left out too much information Hee's the low down. 1st the Chardonnay. It was made from Kamil Juice (from France) which was started on 12/1/2012 with an SG of 1.096. 
*1/1/2013* 1.01 SG, I racked to carboys and placed in a water bath at 75 degrees and added the WhileLabs MLB. not having anyway to test it, it appeared to be finished by 2/16 so I added 1/4 tsp K-metta 

4/28. I added 1/4 K-metta and sparkloid.
I now have a Venmetrica sc300 but it didn't appear to be working right so it's back at the shop getting looked at. I also got a cromo. test kit hence this post. I got Enoferm because of it's abilities, mostly temp range. The Malbec (M1,2 and 3) are stable as well but as you saw, one started MLF all by itself. I'm not as worried about that batch because they (all 3 carboys) well spend time together in a barrel (cue Barry White music) so I'm thinking they will probably either finish MLF or not <grin> if it doesn't then I plan to just sulfite and bottle. My predicament is, I also have 3 Chilean reds that just finished primary (5 days ago) and are topped off waiting for MLB.
Here's what I'm inclined to do with everything;

Chardonnay: Wait till I can insure the SO2 levels are down to <10 (have to wait for the sc300). That's assuming I don't have to use all of the Enoferm once the package is opened. I could also use Lysozyme but that gets a little spendy

Malbec: Inoculate 1 barrel "Seed" the rest with 1.5 ltrs (they're all 6 gallon carboys) each.

Various Chilean reds; Inoculate each carboy. The more I think about it SO2 would be a problem it I waited for each one to cycle through the barrel. 

So. hopefully I projected my intentions properly. My mind goes A LOT fast than the keyboard. 

I would (like the coke dealers of yesteryear) cut the Enoferm into 5ths which should be enough for the Chars, Malbec and 3 reds. 

I know this got long, but I'm really at a loss on how to proceed from here. Any help would be appreciated. Oh and I HAVE NOT used sorbate yet and won't <grin>


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## robie (Jun 27, 2013)

shoebiedoo said:


> OK, yeah I left out too much information Hee's the low down. 1st the Chardonnay. It was made from Kamil Juice (from France) which was started on 12/1/2012 with an SG of 1.096.
> *1/1/2013* 1.01 SG, I racked to carboys and placed in a water bath at 75 degrees and added the WhileLabs MLB. not having anyway to test it, it appeared to be finished by 2/16 so I added 1/4 tsp K-metta
> 
> 4/28. I added 1/4 K-metta and sparkloid.
> ...



I don't follow what you meant concerning lysozme, which is an additive that prevents MLF altogether.

My opinion is that the chard is no longer a good candidate for MLF. That should have been done right after alcoholic fermentation ended... over 6 months ago. If the chard just has too bite, I would order some Biolees and carefully and slowly add it to the chard, rather than an MLF. Biolees will soften the acid bite. Too much will make it taste slightly sweet.


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 27, 2013)

Robie, it tastes just fine. I was worried about it starting to ferment in the bottle. T
Lysozyme just just that, prevents MLF. Or will just boosting the SO2 level be enough.


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## robie (Jun 27, 2013)

shoebiedoo said:


> Robie, it tastes just fine. I was worried about it starting to ferment in the bottle. T
> Lysozyme just just that, prevents MLF. Or will just boosting the SO2 level be enough.




Now I got it!

If you get the free SO2 level up to a good level and bottle the wine, since the wine is already over six months old, you should be fine. Lysozyme, of course, would be great insurance.


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 27, 2013)

robie said:


> Now I got it!
> 
> If you get the free SO2 level up to a good level and bottle the wine, since the wine is already over six months old, you should be fine. Lysozyme, of course, would be great insurance.



Cool beanz. Any thought on the rest? Am I thinking correctly on those?


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## Turock (Jun 28, 2013)

Runningwolf---I agree with you. Why not open them up--especially if you have quite a few bottles. Maybe take a chromo test on them too.

Shoebiedoo--Even at 30 PPM of sulfite, you should be able to accomplish an MLF. It's always unwise to bottle an incompleted MLF. If I understand correctly, you want to MLF the carboy then get them into a barrel--is that correct?


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 28, 2013)

That was the plan yes since it is 3 different batches I was worried about leaving them sit without sulfite but based on you last comment I should be OK with adding the MLB to the barrel and doing MLF that way correct?


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## robie (Jun 28, 2013)

Lots of commercial Chardonnays do not go through MLF; they are not absolute filtered of bacteria, and they haven't had Lysozyme added.

My advice is if you keep massaging you chardonnay, you could easily end up with an oxidation problem and potentially having to throw it out. The wine is already over 6 months old.

The Malbec is a lot hardier, when it comes to oxidation. It can handle what you are proposing.

You already had a problem getting MLF to start. At 30PPM of free SO2 you are going to compound the problem. Yes, I know there are MLB that can still do a MLB at the higher SO2 level. 

I'd raise the free SO2 level to 50PPM and be done with it, especially if, as you said, you already like the taste.

Just my opinion and either way you decide to go will be a valuable learning experience. Just let us know how it all goes, so we can learn along with you.


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## Turock (Jun 29, 2013)

I think Chard is very good done in fruit style--which means no MLF. I agree with Robie--it's 6 months old--time to get it sulfited.


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