# New barrel choice... French vs American vs Canadian



## Andrewwarwick (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm thinking of ordering a new barrel for my kit wines but not sure which to get of the 3. I already have a 23L Hungarian bbl and I do want another but not sure which to get. I like the idea of layering French/Hungarian but its the most expensive of the 4 oaks. 

Any thoughts on it? Or should I just layer oak with spirals/cubes etc?


----------



## Deezil (Mar 30, 2012)

Honestly i dont feel that the smaller 23L barrels are worth the investment. The wineak ratio is too high and it imparts its flavors too fast to take advantage of the micro-oxygenation.. 

So you really only get half the benefits, until the barrel goes neutral. And then you only get the 2nd half of the benefits.. Granted, when it does go neutral, its the best way / one of the only ways to micro-oxygenate smaller batches.

I would go with spirals & cubes myself, but i'd stay away from powder. Just a personal preference as you cant take the powder back out once you feel the wine has enough oak.


----------



## Andrewwarwick (Mar 30, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. Maybe what I'll do is just run my early drinkers trough first to break it in and when it goes neutral use it for aging higher end grape skin kits like my Megliolis, Winery Series etc etc. 

How many months would you recommend running a high end kit like an MM meglioli in a neutral barrel to get the benefits of micro oxygenation? I don't plan on drinking my good kits prior to aging at least 2 years or beyond but I do have several on the go bulk aging so maybe 2 neutral barrels for the long run would be needed.


----------



## robie (Mar 30, 2012)

Just my own personal experience but I disagree about the value of small barrels. I have two, 23liter Vadai barrels. One just has to manage the time/exposure better in the smaller barrels.

I do agree one can use oak chis, spirals, ...etc. for oaking. That said, I actually wish I could buy the barrels already neutral, which is where the real benefit of the small barrel lies. To me it is worth the challenges to get the barrel to neutral.

If you have ever used a neutral barrel for a kit wine, you would likely agree it makes a huge difference.

Just my own experience, though and I can't speak for anyone else.


----------



## Deezil (Mar 30, 2012)

robie said:


> That said, I actually wish I could buy the barrels already neutral, which is where the real benefit of the small barrel lies. To me it is worth the challenges to get the barrel to neutral.



I do have to agree with this part, and have wished a few times that i could find a neutral barrel for the micro-oxygenation.

I mostly wanted to point out that they're generally too small to get both oak & micro-oxygenation, at the same time. This would lead to owning multiple barrels, at even larger costs..

Despite all i've said, i'll probably end up buying a few myself 

As for your second question Andrew, i'm not sure myself. I have no hands-on experience with oak or barrels - i'd leave that to more experience people than myself. I imagine at some point it comes down to your individual taste buds, but i dont know how far along in the process that would be..


----------



## ibglowin (Mar 30, 2012)

There is noooooo problem with micro oxygenation in a 23L barrel. I can assure you that. Just the opposite. 

Due to the higher surface area to volume ratio it will oxygenate the wine super fast. My test have shown that in four months time in a 23L barrel SO2 levels can drop from 50ppm to less than 10ppm. Thats a pretty hefty oxygenation rate I would say. I am wondering how long they can stay in a 23L barrel without running into issues due to low SO2 levels. I will be going out to 6 months on one of mine soon. I think that may be about the max I want to push it without resorting to adding sulfite in the barrel. I would not spend the extra cash on a french oak barrel. I have seen oak levels fall way back a few months after being removed from a 23L barrel. I then either add it back into the barrel if it was a short stay (new barrel) or layer the oak with an ounce or two of med toast french oak beans. This has proven to be my favorite treatment hands down, making for a much more complex wine than what you would have had if you only used one or the other.


----------



## robie (Mar 30, 2012)

Deezil said:


> I mostly wanted to point out that they're generally too small to get both oak & micro-oxygenation, at the same time. at even larger costs..



That is very true. These small barrels have to be thought of as for one or the other of either oaking or micro-oxygenation; not both. If the barrel is relatively new, you can't leave the wine in long enough to get any benefit from M.O. That is, unless you like oak well enough to enjoy the experience of drinking wine in a plywood factory, while it is burning down.

To use a new oak barrel, one would typically leave the wine in the barrel for only two weeks, tasting every 4 or 5 days to be safe. The next batch would go in for double that - 4 weeks. The next 8 weeks an so on. Since it takes many months for micro-oxygenation to fully work, the barrel would have to be deep into this schedule before it could be used for both oaking and M.O.

Don't forget about the barrel's benefit for concentration. In a small barrel, depending on temperature and humidity of course, one can loose a 750ml bottle's worth of water (and some alcohol) every 3 or 4 weeks. This has to be topped off about every 3 or 4 weeks. When water is going out and wine is coming back in to top off, the wine is becoming more and more concentrated each cycle. Concentration, is this case, equals better mouth-feel.


----------



## robie (Mar 30, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> There is noooooo problem with micro oxygenation in a 23L barrel. I can assure you that. Just the opposite.
> 
> Due to the higher surface area to volume ratio it will oxygenate the wine super fast. My test have shown that in four months time in a 23L barrel SO2 levels can drop from 50ppm to less than 10ppm. Thats a pretty hefty oxygenation rate I would say. I am wondering how long they can stay in a 23L barrel without running into issues due to low SO2 levels. I will be going out to 6 months on one of mine soon. I think that may be about the max I want to push it without resorting to adding sulfite in the barrel. I would not spend the extra cash on a french oak barrel. I have seen oak levels fall way back a few months after being removed from a 23L barrel. I then either add it back into the barrel if it was a short stay (new barrel) or layer the oak with an ounce or two of med toast french oak beans. This has proven to be my favorite treatment hands down, making for a much more complex wine than what you would have had if you only used one or the other.



Agree. Also, I have allowed some of my kit reds to become a little too oakie. But after they set a few months, I have gotten to where I really enjoy the heavier oak, especially when it is clean and not that bitter oaky taste... I'm talking about that sort of smoky flavor, not just a woody flavor; that is what I am starting to enjoy. I do love the Hungarian oak.


----------



## Deezil (Mar 30, 2012)

ibglowin said:


> There is noooooo problem with micro oxygenation in a 23L barrel. I can assure you that. Just the opposite.
> 
> Due to the higher surface area to volume ratio it will oxygenate the wine super fast. My test have shown that in four months time in a 23L barrel SO2 levels can drop from 50ppm to less than 10ppm. Thats a pretty hefty oxygenation rate I would say.



I do agree.

It would just be impossible to get the 4-months-worth of oxygenation, in the 2-week-stay in a brand new barrel... 

Unless one was to do as you suggest - roll a couple wines through the new barrel & then roll them through the barrel again, later on, when the barrel has gone neutral for the micro-oxygenation effects. This probably works like a charm.

Edit: Okay now i want a friggin barrel, and i blame the both of you


----------



## ibglowin (Mar 30, 2012)

Depending on cellar temps, I lose 2-3 oz each week. That works out to 1 (one) 750ml bottle of wine every 8 weeks max. Thats a 1.67% concentration rate/month. I have no data on how fast SO2 levels drop in a regular barrel since I don't own one. I do know that (from my experience anyway) the reason kit wines seem to all taste the same no matter what you spend on a kit is that if a wine has spent its whole life completely enclosed in a glass container it hasn't oxidized much if any at all. It is this oxygenation that when controlled in some manner brings out the different varietal characteristics in a wine. Open any kit wine that has essentially been in glass its entire life without any oxidation and it will taste like any other. Open up a bottle, poor off a glass, stuff a cork back in it and leave it for 2-3 days and viola'. It has oxidized (breathed) enough finally to express whatever varietal characteristics it has to offer.

Small barrels (of which I have 3) have improved the wines I make (both kit and fresh grapes) to no end.


----------



## ibglowin (Mar 30, 2012)

Also I used a 2 week, 4 week, 8 week breakin period on my first two barrels. Like I said in the previous post, the oak levels fell way back after a few months. Never saw that before with beans or cubes. But, it has happened on everything coming out of the barrel. Sometimes I run it back through for another month or 2 (more oxygenation, concentration especially if it was in a short stay) or I add more oak beans (in carboy) Just be careful with the beans, that doesn't seem to fall back much if at all. One ounce is plenty. My new barrel (#3) is going with a 4 week, 8 week, 12 week, 16 week schedule. Still being a little conservative rather than go out to 16 weeks after the 3rd rotation but better to be able to add than have made Chateau Plywood as they say!


----------



## Andrewwarwick (Mar 30, 2012)

Great feedback, thanks guys. 

I'm going to have fun with this and might even grab a cheaper Canadian oak 19L barrel. Once that's neutral I could finish the aging process by bottling the excess and running the bulk of my batch through the barrel. That would leave me a few bottles from the batch left over for topping up the barrel and comparing final results of micro oxygenated vs Carboy aged/bottled. 

I do have 19L carboys too so I could even rack back to Carboy at any time.


----------



## robie (Mar 30, 2012)

I certainly believe in a "taste as you go" routine and don't fully trust what "they say" should happen. I try to taste on a regular basis, more often when the barrel is fairly new. I also try to not open the barrel any more often than necessary, though.

I tell you, I would not take for my two barrels. I even consider buying one just for whites. But that is just my own opinion.


----------



## Deezil (Mar 30, 2012)

robie said:


> I tell you, I would not take for my two barrels. I even consider buying one just for whites. But that is just my own opinion.



Take what? Curiousity hasnt killed this cat yet


----------



## robie (Mar 30, 2012)

Deezil said:


> Take what? Curiousity hasnt killed this cat yet



That's a Southern expression for saying something is too valuable with which to part.


----------



## Deezil (Mar 30, 2012)

Ah-ha, sorry just sounded like a word was missin

I got the jest of it, just didnt wanna miss nothin


----------



## tonyt (Mar 30, 2012)

Andrewwarwick said:


> I'm thinking of ordering a new barrel for my kit wines but not sure which to get of the 3. I already have a 23L Hungarian bbl and I do want another but not sure which to get. I like the idea of layering French/Hungarian but its the most expensive of the 4 oaks.
> 
> Any thoughts on it? Or should I just layer oak with spirals/cubes etc?



+1 Robie and Mike. Go for least expensive and let go neutral then add cubes and or spirals. My 23ltr Hungarian is just over one year and just about neutral . . . Yipee! I now keep a kit in 3 months.


----------



## Rock (Mar 30, 2012)

Hey no problem people, give me your new barrels,ill break them in for you and then give them back when their neutral.


----------

