# Elmer's first boil



## Elmer

Today was my first boil a hoppy pale ale, 6% ABV (est) 44 IBU
This was an extract kit put together by my LHBS 
I was nervous going into this as I have never attempts anything like this, but my LHBS guy in Rentler said it best when he informed me " it is just like making soup".
Steeping the grains was easy, the liquid malt was sticky.
The hops and pellets gave it a good smell.
The rest of the family hates the smell.
I boiled for an hour addin. Hops at 15 minute increments. The only issue I had was my box did not have peat moss, which the receipe called for. But I did not want to hold off my boil for lack of 1/4 tsp. the moss aids clarity not taste from what I could find out.

After an hour boil I placed in an ice bath in the sink and let it drop to 80degree F, than racked to bucket.
Added 3 gallon of water. I have been waiting for the wort to drop to 78 so I can add yeast.
Yeast will be added dry as per directions.
SG was 1.055 , so ABV will be adjusted.
Plan is 2-3 weeks in primary (once it hits Sg of 1.010)
2-3 weeks in bottle
Drink & repeat


----------



## jamesjr

Awesome let us kno how it turns out. Im about to take the plunge and make my first beer in a few weeks. Quick question how much original water did u start your boil with?


----------



## Elmer

I boiled with 2 gallons. Added 3 after the wort cooled and I transferred to primary

I should also add that I did not have Irish Moss, I originally said peat moss.

Also used salagal 05 ale yeast

For a pale ale the wort was much darker than I had anticipated.

Lastly after pulling my thermometer from the must I wiped with my fingered and took a taste. Unfermented beer tastes lousy!


----------



## cmason1957

Just a note and any more experienced beer makers can tell me I am wrong. I have always heard it is better to just pour the wort into the primary bucket rather than rack it. You want some extra added oxygen mixed in at that point. It's what I do anyway abs haven't had a problem in about 10 beers I have made. I do a five gallon boil, since my wife found a huge or at the local Goodwill.


----------



## BernardSmith

Looking good, Elmer. 
I am not an experienced brewer but I strongly agree with cmason, Elmer. You have been boiling water for what? about 60 minutes so most of the oxygen in the water has been boiled off. You want to pour the wort from a height into the fermenter to help aerate it. Of course , if the volume is not large and you have the strength you can aerate the wort in the fermenter by rocking or shaking the vessel... 
Three other points: 
1. boiling extract darkens the sugars (think of bread when you add heat). It is called a Maillard reaction. The longer you boil an extract and the less water you boil it in the darker will be the result. 
2. You say that you intend to rack the beer once the gravity hits 1.010. You realize that that is likely to be your final gravity? Grains unlike fruit have lots of unfermentable sugars and while I have no idea of the likely final gravity (FG) 1.010 does sound like that is not unreasonable. So, I guess my question is whether you have a good reason to rack the beer at that point or whether that was the target FG and so you aim to bottle the beer after it has been at 1.010 for a week or two.
Irish Moss: Personally , I have never used any. It is a clarifier. I think that if you ferment at cooler rather than higher temperatures (but I also rack after one week from my fermenter into a glass carboy) that my beers seem to clear OK without any fining agents. Whirlfloc (sp?) is another fining agent that is added to the boil (also never used)


----------



## Elmer

BernardSmith said:


> Looking good, Elmer.
> I am not an experienced brewer but I strongly agree with cmason, Elmer. You have been boiling water for what? about 60 minutes so most of the oxygen in the water has been boiled off. You want to pour the wort from a height into the fermenter to help aerate it. Of course , if the volume is not large and you have the strength you can aerate the wort in the fermenter by rocking or shaking the vessel...
> Three other points:
> 1. boiling extract darkens the sugars (think of bread when you add heat). It is called a Maillard reaction. The longer you boil an extract and the less water you boil it in the darker will be the result.
> 2. You say that you intend to rack the beer once the gravity hits 1.010. You realize that that is likely to be your final gravity? Grains unlike fruit have lots of unfermentable sugars and while I have no idea of the likely final gravity (FG) 1.010 does sound like that is not unreasonable. So, I guess my question is whether you have a good reason to rack the beer at that point or whether that was the target FG and so you aim to bottle the beer after it has been at 1.010 for a week or two.
> Irish Moss: Personally , I have never used any. It is a clarifier. I think that if you ferment at cooler rather than higher temperatures (but I also rack after one week from my fermenter into a glass carboy) that my beers seem to clear OK without any fining agents. Whirlfloc (sp?) is another fining agent that is added to the boil (also never used)



Target FG is 1.010 or 1.012. I then intend to rack to a carboy and add priming sugar. to avoid too much CO2, I have adapted my AIO to hose to act as a bottling wand, so I can fill a bottle from the bottom up.

When I put the wort in the bucket I racked from the sink to the bucket with an auto siphon and large length of tube.
I splashed the wort into the bucket.


----------



## BernardSmith

Never tried to use a vacuum to bottle beer but Steve may know whether the CO2 already in the beer may cause a great deal of foam in each bottle which may slow down your bottling. I use a siphon and a bottling wand (when you press down on the wand at the bottom of the bottle the valve opens and allows the beer (or wine) to flow into the bottle. You raise the wand and the valve closes. The amount of liquid displaced by the wand inside the bottle is perfect for the amount of headroom you want between the beer and the cap).


----------



## Elmer

BernardSmith said:


> Never tried to use a vacuum to bottle beer but Steve may know whether the CO2 already in the beer may cause a great deal of foam in each bottle which may slow down your bottling. I use a siphon and a bottling wand (when you press down on the wand at the bottom of the bottle the valve opens and allows the beer (or wine) to flow into the bottle. You raise the wand and the valve closes. The amount of liquid displaced by the wand inside the bottle is perfect for the amount of headroom you want between the beer and the cap).



I used to use a bottling wand and bucket but both had fallen into disrepair since my purchase of the AIO.
However I did recently buy a new bottling wand for bottling day, just in case.

It is my understanding that there is 2 issues with the AIO when bottling beer.
1-vacuuming up the co2
2-splash racking when filling the bottles.

1-I guess the fix is as follows. The AIO has a hole in the vacuum tube which will cut down on the vacuum from sucking out too much co2 when bottling.
2- i Cut a length of 3/8 hose which attaches to the bottling adapter, this will help displace the same amount of liquid as a wand when bottling and enable me to bottle from the bottom up and not splash rack.

beer making is going to be a big learning experience for me, or a big failure. We will see how it goes!


----------



## BernardSmith

I don't think "failure" is on the horizon... Like wine, some beers are going to be more successful and some less... but an outright failure is unlikely... And even if you try to create your own recipes and even if what happens is that your beers are accidentally sour (lambic type bacteria rather than the more typical yeasts) and even if in the end you really would rather forget this or that batch, it's only a failure if you fail to understand what happened and so progress. The worst batch I have made to date was one that is called fraoch - it doesn't use hops but uses heather. Turns out I prefer my beers more bitter. Next time I make a fraoch I will simply add some bittering hops. 

I think the secret to brewing is keep it simple - don't add ingredients for the sake of making it more complex. What you get is not complexity but a noise. There's a difference. IMO, truly limited experience, beer is really a base malt to which you add some additional flavor and aroma (grains and/or herbs).. Everything else is bells and whistles , too many bells and too many whistles all clanging and tweeting at the same time and you have noise and not a sound that delights. The other secrets are the same as in wine making - cleanliness and patience. If your brewing is simple, your process clean (good sanitization) and if you have the needed patience your experience will be really enjoyable... and successful.


----------



## olusteebus

I vacuum bottled a stout recently. I don't really know if it impacted the carbonation or not. I did not have significant bubbles at all.


----------



## cooldood

I usually brew 50- gallons of beer a year. 
I would never rack into Primary. Dump it and try to make foam to add oxygen. 
If yoiu dont do a full boil do same thing with the water you are adding. I will use a spray nozzle from my tap. (well water).
Extracts are always dark. They have already been boiled so really only need to be sanitized.
Try late additions method
only add 20% of extract at beginning of boil then add the rest at flame out. You will get a much lighter wort.


----------



## Elmer

My bucket airlock is bubbling away like crazy.
Fermentation is under way!


----------



## BernardSmith

Looks like the eagle has taken off...


----------



## jswordy

Great thread, Elmer! Good luck to you.


----------



## petey_c

Elmer, Good luck. 
"Try late additions method"
Excellent point. It will reduce the tendency for darker beers. 
Once the wort has cooled down, pouring from high is a good idea. The yeast will benefit from the added O2. I also top with water from about three feet. I've never vac bottled beer. I've only used the bottling wand. So, no input here.
"...beer is really a base malt to which you add some additional flavor and aroma (grains and/or herbs).. Everything else is bells and whistles , too many bells and too many whistles all clanging and tweeting at the same time and you have noise and not a sound that delights. The other secrets are the same as in wine making - cleanliness and patience. If your brewing is simple, your process clean (good sanitization) and if you have the needed patience your experience will be really enjoyable... and successful." Reinheitsgebot (Excellent points BS. Hmm that doesn't sound right...)
Once you're at the point of bottling, you want to keep exposure to O2 to a minimum. My bottling bucket (okay, all of my fermenters) has a spigot. I boil two cups of water and add about 5 oz. of priming sugar for 5 gallons. Let that cool and pour into the bottling bucket. Rack the beer onto that, using a length of food grade hose to minimize splashing and disperse the sugar. Then bottle.


----------



## Elmer

Thanks for info.
I have a feeling I am over thinking alot of this, especially since I have a week or 2 between boil, ferment and bottling.

However I continuously see people post that you cook up the priming sugar and rack the beer on top of it.
Is there any reason why I could not rack the beer add the priming sugar and then gently stir to mix.

Is there an added benefits to racking it ontop of the sugar as opposed to adding after.
Or am I over thinking once again?


----------



## BernardSmith

I think that you are asking a really good question, Elmer. Here's why - and I don't pretend to have the "right" answer - the density of the priming sugar is likely to be significantly more dense than the beer. That means if you add the sugar water for priming the liquid should slower or faster sink towards the bottom and that suggests (at least to me ) that simply by adding it you have already begun to mix it through the beer (at least from top to bottom). However, if you rack the beer onto the priming liquid then you have the opportunity (more or less) of keeping the tip of your racking hose under liquid and so you are exposing the beer to the least amount of air possible. 
I tend to rack the beer onto the sugar BUT on one occasion I made the simple syrup I was to add, went back to the bottles I had sanitized and checked to make sure that there was nothing more dripping from those bottles and in the time it took for me to go through a dozen or so bottles I had forgotten (momentarily) that the liquid in the bottling bucket was syrup and I poured it out wondering how so much sanitizer had collected in the bucket! So, if you are not paying 100 percent attention to what you are doing it may be better to add the sugar to your beer rather than the beer to your sugar.. But others with far more knowledge and far more experience may have a very different take on this.


----------



## cmason1957

I always pour the sugar water into the bottom of the bucket I am going to rack into and make sure that the hose is down there as well. Don't want any extra water at this time. Once racked, I give it a very gentle, but through stir.

I haven't (yet) gotten confused about what was in the bottom of my bottling bucket, but I don't pour the sugar into there, until I am just about ready to start the siphon of the racking. It is just my way. I try to be a measure twice, cut once type of guy.


----------



## Elmer

Day 6 and my airlock has slowed down considerably.
I intend to wait until I hit the 2 week Mark than take an Sg reading.
If it is at the FG I will rack, prime and bottle.

However more experienced Brewers have advised to leave the must sitting for an extra week before bottling.
I guess there is a 2-2 schedule Brewers adhere to, while some go 3-3
(Primary-bottle)


----------



## jswordy

Sounds like all is well. Don't forget to take pix of your beer if you can! 

Mine is very clear in the bottles. Waiting til 1/13 or so to crack one open and see how well it carbed.


----------



## petey_c

olusteebus, Usually stouts have a lower amount of carbonation than other types of brews. If you had a keg system you could also "carbonate" with some nitrogen (I believe it's a mix of CO2 and Nitrogen) ala Guinness.
I'm a member of the 3 and 3 club. Three weeks primary, three weeks bottle. Except heavy brews. I don't think it will really matter if it's sugar then beer or vice versa.


----------



## BernardSmith

petey_c said:


> olusteebus, Usually stouts have a lower amount of carbonation than other types of brews. If you had a keg system you could also "carbonate" with some nitrogen (I believe it's a mix of CO2 and Nitrogen) ala Guinness.
> I'm a member of the 3 and 3 club. Three weeks primary, three weeks bottle. Except heavy brews. I don't think it will really matter if it's sugar then beer or vice versa.



I am 2 and 2 but I will give 3 and 3 a go.


----------



## olusteebus

I was a member of the 3 to ferment, 3 to bottle and 6 to drink. It turned out pretty good, not as good as I expected. I think I will try a porter next.


----------



## Elmer

I have myself schedule to bottle the weekend of the 17th trough 19.
Which puts me at the 2.5 weeks
Otherwise I have to wait until 3.5 because I started the batch no week.

Just trying to weigh the pros and cons of going 2.5 or 3.5.
I though beer was not much of a aging liquid.
Guess for my first batch giving it go will let me know, and I probably won't be wrong either way.


----------



## BernardSmith

This is just my uninformed opinion but it strikes me that most beers don't benefit by aging if by aging you mean months in the carboy. But if by aging, you simply mean that beers may improve and clear better if we wait a week or two longer before we bottle and wait a week or too longer than we might tend to do before we crack open a bottle then I think that such aging does improve the beer. The yeast has more time to remove and transform its own waste products and that does seem to add something to the flavors... The downside is (I think) that since most brewers today do not rack to a secondary and their primary has feet of headroom then the longer you allow the beer to age in the fermenter the greater the risk there is for oxidation. However, I think - never tested this - I think that during the first three weeks or so there is enough CO2 in the fermenter to blanket the beer and inhibit oxidation. Big beers that do require real aging - so-called barleywines, for example, do need to be racked to secondaries and those secondaries need to be filled to the tippy top just like wines...


----------



## petey_c

BernardSmith, You're correct most beers don't benefit from aging too long. Wheat beers are one example. IPA's should also be consumed fresh. Porters and stouts do benefit from aging three months or more. I always bottle condition rather than bulk condition. Plus it frees (frees? for some reason that doesn't look right.) up a fermenter so I can start another batch. It also eliminates the O2 issue. Speaking of, I'll have to check my to do list when I get home (at work now) and see when I have to bottle... Cheers, Pete


----------



## jswordy

The other beers that benefit from aging, my professional brewmaster friend says, are the barrel-aged beers. Whiskey barrel aged, wine barrel aged, or in some cases just oak barrel aged, etc.

Elmer should be getting close to bottling by now, eh? Ya, 17-19 I see up dere.


----------



## Elmer

jswordy said:


> The other beers that benefit from aging, my professional brewmaster friend says, are the barrel-aged beers. Whiskey barrel aged, wine barrel aged, or in some cases just oak barrel aged, etc.
> 
> Elmer should be getting close to bottling by now, eh? Ya, 17-19 I see up dere.



  
Initially I was going to bottle the weekend of 17th through 19th, but now after extensive discussion and research on the internet and a beer making forum I am thinking of pushing it off until the following weekend.
Right now day 15, my primary has stopped bubbling and is sitting at 63F, hopefully clearing.

The consensus is that waiting the extra week allows more to drop. Also since I will not be doing a secondary prior to bottling, this will allow more clearing time.
however it seems that there are those that are for a 3 week primary and those who are for 2 week primary.
I based my decsision most on the fact that while waiting an extra week may clear the wine a little more (yet this can not be certain), it appears there will be no damage to the wine.
The wine is still sitting in a primary, lid snapped shut covered in many, many blankets.

of course if anyone would like to change my mind and talk me into bottling this weekend, I am willing to listen. If anyone wants to send a bribe in the form of monetary payment (small untraceable bills or bearer bonds) I am sure that could change my bottling schedule.


----------



## BernardSmith

Just curious: the blankets. What is the purpose of covering the bucket or carboy with "many, many blankets". Again, as I like to say I am not a natural scientist (I am a social scientist) so I may have this all confused, but after fermentation the beer is not exothermic, so "blankets" are not going to trap heat produced by the beer. And many layers may - in any event be self defeating. If you have one layer that can help trap some of the heat between the heat generating body (the exothermic bucket) and the cooler ambient outside air, but since the blanket is "leaky" then trapping the escaped warm air under another blanket will help maintain the temperature of the bucket AND act as a barrier to keep the colder air from being in contact with the first blanket and so having a cooling effect on the air heated by the bucket . More than two layers (unless the blankets are incredibly "leaky") would seem to be kinda redundant... 
So as a non physicist I would imagine that two layers - at most - might be needed IF (IF) any covering was needed. But the only need for coverage after fermentation is over that I can think of is to prevent UV light from reaching the hopped liquid, and you can do that by simply having the beer in a relatively opaque white bucket or placing a cardboard box over the fermenter or covering the fermenter with a towel.. I may be wrong and I am always happy to be corrected....


----------



## Elmer

BernardSmith said:


> Just curious: the blankets. What is the purpose of covering the bucket or carboy with "many, many blankets". Again, as I like to say I am not a natural scientist (I am a social scientist) so I may have this all confused, but after fermentation the beer is not exothermic, so "blankets" are not going to trap heat produced by the beer. And many layers may - in any event be self defeating. If you have one layer that can help trap some of the heat between the heat generating body (the exothermic bucket) and the cooler ambient outside air, but since the blanket is "leaky" then trapping the escaped warm air under another blanket will help maintain the temperature of the bucket AND act as a barrier to keep the colder air from being in contact with the first blanket and so having a cooling effect on the air heated by the bucket . More than two layers (unless the blankets are incredibly "leaky") would seem to be kinda redundant...
> So as a non physicist I would imagine that two layers - at most - might be needed IF (IF) any covering was needed. But the only need for coverage after fermentation is over that I can think of is to prevent UV light from reaching the hopped liquid, and you can do that by simply having the beer in a relatively opaque white bucket or placing a cardboard box over the fermenter or covering the fermenter with a towel.. I may be wrong and I am always happy to be corrected....



Bernard, I wont or cant correct you but I can try and explain my rationale behind the blankets. (As an aside I minored in social science, to which a buddy who is a PHD in philosophy would tease me about the "science of the obvious")
My brew is in a white bucket, sitting on top of a small sturdy coffee table in the corner of my basement, southwest corner. (for reference here is a crudely drawn blueprint http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/winemaking-storage-dilemma-41968/, all my brewing and storage is now at the "new location" )
Anyway, I use a a bunch of heavy blankets and bed sheets, old shirts ect to keep heat in while fermenting, but more importantly to keep the change in temp of my basement out.

While my wine and brew are sitting out in the open of the basement they are close to the heat duct, which does not heat up too much. The Washer & Dryer are there as well. My thought was that when running the dryer and a quick increase in temp all the blankets act as a barrier to keep the primary from being effected.
The same happens in reverse when it is fermenting, I want to keep the heat in and not have it exposed to the sudden drop in temp that we get here in the great white northeast.


----------



## jswordy

Hmmm, social science, eh? 

“[F]or a social theorist ignorance is more excusable than vagueness. Other investigators can easily show I am wrong if I am sufficiently precise. They will have much more difficulty showing by investigation what, precisely, I mean if I am vague. I hope not to be forced to weasel out with 'But I didn’t really mean that.' Social theorists should prefer to be wrong rather than misunderstood. Being misunderstood shows sloppy theoretical work.” 
― Arthur L. Stinchcombe

Your blanket rational seems within the realm of possibility to me. Did you notice how you switched from "beer" to "wine" in your earlier post? I'm of the opinion it was intentional.


----------



## BernardSmith

Elmer;548492 ...As an aside I minored in social science said:


> Leaving aside your explanation for your use of blankets, which I have to admit does make sense (although I guess because I live not too far from you and am subject to the same sudden temperature changes (minus 6 yesterday to what feels like about 30 today)... and my basement seems to be at a fairly constant 60 plus (the section with the furnace is walled off... ) my kind of sociology does not in fact deal with the obvious in any obvious ways.. or rather it absolutely embraces the obvious and asks us to look at what we take for granted and at what is rather invisible precisely because it is taken for granted - and the example I often use is this:
> There is a kind of "rule" in our culture that says that you do not walk through two people who are "together" . You walk around them. Agreed? And we all . - most of us - appear to follow that "rule". My kind of sociology asks how do we determine that any two (or more) strangers we come across in the street are in fact "together" such that we are pretty confident we are following the rule, and such that when for one reason or another we may not follow that rule we are (at least in Britain) likely to acknowledge our failure with an "excuse me" or some such... The exploration/investigation of those kinds of questions are not in fact "trivial" - they point to how we in fact make sense of the world we find ourselves in and that kind of sociology is called ethno-methodology (the practices and methods people use in going about their everyday lives)... my own particular interest is in what is called medical sociology and my research was in how family doctors (in Scotland) determined whether they could treat a patient themselves or needed to send the patient to a specialist (a consultant). The problem for the local family doctor is if she or he sends every patient to a specialist then the consultants view that doctor as incompetent and if the family doctor fails to have the patient who really needs to be seen by a specialist then again, the doctor highlights their incompetence so how do they "manage" a presentation of themselves as competent given the uncertainties they face every day... So... not so obvious and yet THAT is something that every "competent" doctor manages...


----------



## jswordy

^^^ And this kinda stuff is what drives Bernard and Elmer to *DRINK!* 

Boy, I'd like to be fly on the wall if you two ever get together with a few bottles!


----------



## BernardSmith

jswordy said:


> ^^^ And this kinda stuff is what drives Bernard and Elmer to *DRINK!*
> 
> Boy, I'd like to be fly on the wall if you two ever get together with a few bottles!



Not at all.. this is what drives me to wine making.... and brewing


----------



## petey_c

Elmer for future ref. you can also use a water heater blanket to wrap the primary. That should keep the temps a little more stable. I've also heard people using fish tank heaters to keep the beer temps up. If you're only brewing in 5 gal batches, it shouldn't be a big deal. Or, the ever popular brew belt...


----------



## petey_c

Bernard, I experienced just the opposite. I pitched the yeast at 67°. (Pinot Gris) During fermentation it rose to 73°. Now it's dropped down to 63°. No noticeable change in brew room (laundry room) temps.


----------



## petey_c

Elmer, just another observation. I usually leave the grain bag a little looser and give the wort a stir every 10 minutes or so. I think it allows for better dispersal of the sugars in the grain. Sorry, no scientific evidence to back this up.


----------



## BernardSmith

I also don't tie my grain bag - basically just allow it to line the inside of my kettle and so I know the grains are thoroughly soaked in the mash. I think the basic idea is less like that you are making tea and more like you are making a porridge. my understanding is that there is in fact a sweet spot between the amount of water in which the grains are soaked and the volume of grains being mashed, and (not a chemist) that that sweet spot has to do with the ability of the enzymes extracted by the water to convert the starches in the grain. If there is a tightly wadded ball of grain then the enzymes are not able to have any impact on those starches... On the other hand if the volume of liquid is too great for the quantity of grain then that level of dilution inhibits the ability of the enzymes to connect to the starch molecules. Not certain but I think that that sweet spot lies around 1.25 - 1.33 qts : lb


----------



## Elmer

petey_c said:


> Elmer, just another observation. I usually leave the grain bag a little looser and give the wort a sit every 10 minutes or so. I think it allows for better dispersal of the sugars in the grain. Sorry, no scientific evidence to back this up.



That is a great advice. I think I had that tied way too tight. 
I did squeeze that sucker really well before tossing it.
I think next boil I will leave it loose.


----------



## petey_c

If you have a garden spent grains make great fertilizer. You can make bread or biscuits. If you have a dog you can make tasty dog treats (no hops though).
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/spent-grain-make-your-best-friend-cookies-87097/
Since you usually remove the grains before the boil, this shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Thig

Does it hurt to sanitize the bottles with kmeta if you drain them really good. I know kmeta is generally a no no for beer.


----------



## jswordy

Elmer said:


> That is a great advice. I think I had that tied way too tight.
> I did squeeze that sucker really well before tossing it.
> I think next boil I will leave it loose.



I've been advised not to squeeze the bag, and also have seen that in some instructions. Just let the fluid run out well.

What Bernard says about a "stuck sparge," when the grain globs up, tracks with what I have read. 

If you dry the spent grains, they make great bird food, too.


----------



## jswordy

Thig said:


> Does it hurt to sanitize the bottles with kmeta if you drain them really good. I know kmeta is generally a no no for beer.



Personally, I'd be concerned about doing that if you plan to bottle carb. It possibly could hold back the yeast. I just put my clean bottles in the dishwasher on high heat with no soap. Then they are ready to go. I am thinking about adapting that for wine bottling, too. Lazy, I reckon...


----------



## Thig

These are actually new bottles so I may be good to go with doing nothing.


----------



## jswordy

Thig said:


> These are actually new bottles so I may be good to go with doing nothing.



I would sanitize any bottle. Beer has a low % ABV so it is more prone to infection with molds, etc., than wine. Now I'm a newb to this, I am quoting my brewmaster friend. His mantra at the brewery is, there is no such thing as TOO sanitary.

UNDER EDIT: We actually had a craft brewer go bankrupt after it bottled up an infected batch a few years back. They did not know it was infected when bottled. But the customers did when they opened them up. Bye-bye brewery.


----------



## BernardSmith

Two points: I guess I think brewers simply don't use K-meta because they boil their wort and so don't have any need for SO2... They use iodine and One Step (I think) to sanitize or (gulp) chlorine bleach (but then they don't use corks). I use K-meta to sanitize my beer bottles. I like my beer but I have never entered any brew into competition but I don't think that there is any off aromas or tastes in the beer simply because of the way I sanitize my bottles.

The other point is about squeezing the bag of grains and the claim that squeezing will result in tannins from the grain getting into the wort. Not a chemist and know nothing about chemistry but how would putting pressure on grains result in tannins being expelled. If pressure (and not temperature) extracted tannins then I guess the larger breweries would all have problems with tannins. Home brewers use a few pounds of grains and how much pressure can our hands exert on the bag? Breweries must use hundreds of pounds of grains and the weight of the grain must (I would think) create far more pressure than Elmer could possibly exert. I think that the idea that squeezing a bag of grain results in the extraction of tannins is another brewer's fairy tale... It's far more likely to be too high a temperature that is the culprit.


----------



## petey_c

Thig said:


> Does it hurt to sanitize the bottles with kmeta if you drain them really good. I know kmeta is generally a no no for beer.


I wouldn't use kmeta (that kills yeast, yes?), Starsan (my personnal choice) sanitizes in a couple of minutes and whatever is left turns into yeast food. You'll need those yeasts to carb your brew, if you're bottling...


----------



## petey_c

jswordy said:


> I've been advised not to squeeze the bag, and also have seen that in some instructions. Just let the fluid run out well.
> 
> What Bernard says about a "stuck sparge," when the grain globs up, tracks with what I have read.
> 
> If you dry the spent grains, they make great bird food, too.



I squeeze the bag all the time and haven't noticed any off flavors. The hardest part is not burning the crap out of your hands while doing it...


----------



## jswordy

I think the instructions for the kits - as well as the instructional videos I have seen - tell you not to squeeze the bag both because of the possible tannins and because of the extra particulates that may be introduced. 

From one such instruction sheet: 

1. Pour crushed grains into grain bag and tie a loose knot at the top of the bag.
2. When the water is within an appropriate steeping temperature
(150º - 165ºF) place the grain bag into the brew pot.
3. Steep grains for approximately 20 minutes. Remove grain bag and without squeezing, allow liquid to drain back into brew pot."

Like with wine, it seems there are many ways to achieve the same end in beer making. For example, I have three beer-making videos. They all say to use a secondary if you want clearer beer. But apparently many people skip that phase. We've already had that discussion here.


----------



## Elmer

petey_c said:


> I wouldn't use kmeta (that kills yeast, yes?), Starsan (my personnal choice) sanitizes in a couple of minutes and whatever is left turns into yeast food. You'll need those yeasts to carb your brew, if you're bottling...




I may be bottling today & realize I only have kmeta on hand as a sanitizer .
Will have to see how it goes.
However I did use kmeta to sanitize everythig before my ferment, and everything seems to not have been effected


----------



## Thig

I am 1 week into my first beer kit but I didn't realize kmeta killed yeast. Certainly not refuting what you experienced beer makers say, just wondering why we add sorbate to wine if kmeta kills yeast.


----------



## Elmer

FG 1.010, final ABV should be 5.5%
I racked with the intention of bottling today. However after further research, it was suggested I use star San rather than K Meta. I was told that k meta was not a strong enough sanitizer and could mess with my remaining yeast.
Since I had already racked I will run out on Monday for some star San and bottle Tommowow.
The beer is not as dark when out of carboy. Has a nice hoppy flavor, but not quite what I expected.
I can easily say I don't care for uncarbonated beer
I I'd use the AI1 to rack. I turned it on to get suction and then turned off and let gravity do the rest. How AI1 does when bottlin remains to be seen.


----------



## Elmer

So I had intended to bottle yesterday but it was brought to my attention that I should not sanitiZe with KMeta, but instead use star San.
So I held off for a day and went and it some star San.
Good think I waited a day because more yeast/sediment dropped out.
Today I sanitized everything with star San, racked and bottled.
The toughest part was sanitizing every bottle and letting the dry. I use an upside down milk carton to place the bottles in, was not as effective as I hoped, but it worked.

Bottling with the AIO made things go easy, I would fill 6 or 12 at a time and then cap. Slowing down the flow allowed the beer not to foam too much or degass too much.

I took a couple sips and it is good hoppy ipa, it is just currently not carbed.
My biggest fear is not getting it to carb. I have most of my batch in the living room where it is 65 at its coolest. I put a dozen bottles in the basement where is 60, I covered these in 5 layers of heavy blankets.

Prep, sanitizing , bottling and clean up took about 3 hours.
I would consider investing in a keg system just to save me some hassle. 
I have already purchased my next kit American Cream Ale, all extract! I will save this for spring, summer.

All in all this was an experience.


----------



## HB_in_Subic

Did you add priming sugar before bottling? I use 1 liter bottles so I only have to bottle 20-22 bottles. But storing them sucks.


----------



## Elmer

HB_in_Subic said:


> Did you add priming sugar before bottling? I use 1 liter bottles so I only have to bottle 20-22 bottles. But storing them sucks.



Yes, I used 5 Oz in 1 cup water, heated stirred and added to the carboy. I then stirred gently and went back to sanitizing the bottles.
I gave the beer another stir just before I began bottling. 
I know some suggest using less priming sugar for 5 gallons, but I figured a little extra carbonation could compensate for the loss of any gass due to using the AIO


----------



## BernardSmith

This may be fine but IMO you do need to be cautious when priming, less, because of the risk of creating bottle bombs and more because it is possible to over prime and after a couple of months conditioning what sometimes happens is that if you pour the way that craft brewers are supposed to pour (right down into the center of the glass and not onto the inside wall) you can find that you have more head than you expect. IMO, 1 oz /gallon is OK but it is the high side but I think this is more a matter of learning what you, your beer, your equipment and your technique want/need/allow


----------



## Elmer

BernardSmith said:


> This may be fine but IMO you do need to be cautious when priming, less, because of the risk of creating bottle bombs and more because it is possible to over prime and after a couple of months conditioning what sometimes happens is that if you pour the way that craft brewers are supposed to pour (right down into the center of the glass and not onto the inside wall) you can find that you have more head than you expect. IMO, 1 oz /gallon is OK but it is the high side but I think this is more a matter of learning what you, your beer, your equipment and your technique want/need/allow




I have never been bothered by getting too much head!


----------



## BernardSmith

um... there is no answer to that...


----------



## jswordy

Thig said:


> I am 1 week into my first beer kit but I didn't realize kmeta killed yeast. Certainly not refuting what you experienced beer makers say, just wondering why we add sorbate to wine if kmeta kills yeast.



Kmeta holds back or can arrest their development. After all, when you sanitize must, you are killing off the wild yeasts. In beer, the yeast is not as robust, IMO, as wine yeast.

In my very first wine ever, I put too much kmeta in as a sanitizer and never did get yeast to grow in it at all. Four tries over 2 weeks. Tossed the whole batch. Personally, I don't see much mention of kmeta in brewing circles. I hardly use it in winemaking except as a preservative prior to bottling. I prefer Easy Clean.

I'll stick with the dishwasher to sanitize my beer bottles. Works great.

On the priming stuff, 1 ounce/gallon is the generally recommended dose. In cooler/cold weather, it might take more. In warmer weather or in a warm house, less. I used 5 oz in 6 gallons with my batch at ~ 65 degrees, and I find myself wishing I had added more. 

If you are able to refrigerate your beer, you can halt carb anytime you feel it is good enough. Refrigerated storage also flocculated the yeast compactly in the bottom of my bottles, so a full 12 ounce pour with no cloudiness is possible.

Your mileage may vary.


----------



## jswordy

Elmer said:


> So I had intended to bottle yesterday but it was brought to my attention that I should not sanitiZe with KMeta, but instead use star San.
> So I held off for a day and went and it some star San.
> Good think I waited a day because more yeast/sediment dropped out.
> Today I sanitized everything with star San, racked and bottled.
> The toughest part was sanitizing every bottle and letting the dry. I use an upside down milk carton to place the bottles in, was not as effective as I hoped, but it worked.
> 
> Bottling with the AIO made things go easy, I would fill 6 or 12 at a time and then cap. Slowing down the flow allowed the beer not to foam too much or degass too much.
> 
> I took a couple sips and it is good hoppy ipa, it is just currently not carbed.
> My biggest fear is not getting it to carb. I have most of my batch in the living room where it is 65 at its coolest. I put a dozen bottles in the basement where is 60, I covered these in 5 layers of heavy blankets.
> 
> Prep, sanitizing , bottling and clean up took about 3 hours.
> I would consider investing in a keg system just to save me some hassle.
> I have already purchased my next kit American Cream Ale, all extract! I will save this for spring, summer.
> 
> All in all this was an experience.
> 
> View attachment 20205



Yaaay! Now I am thirsty. It'll carb fine at 65 or so.


----------



## Thig

jswordy said:


> I'll stick with the dishwasher to sanitize my beer bottles. Works great.



I will just stick with that, I like the idea of being to load that dish washer up and doing them all at one time on high heat and no soap.


----------



## Elmer

With both Beer & Wine, my bottles are always delabled & Cleaned and stored upside down in boxes.

With Wine I usually spritz some K-meta in the bottle coat and dump out. If a little is left in the bottle all the better to dose the wine.

With beer I filled a bucket with San Star and submerged the bottle and dumped out and dried (except for the bubbles.)
however there were 50+ beer bottles.
With wine I tend to rack down and bottle a few at a time, so at most I am bottling 15 bottles of wine.

I guess in retrospect I could have used the AIO to pump Star San into the bottles and then dumped. But the biggest issue I had with beer was drying, without a drying rack.
I tried to use an upside down milk crate but it was just off enough to make everything slip about.
Wine is so much easier to sanitize, just my opinion


----------



## BernardSmith

The thing about soap (is that what dishwashers use?) is that it forms a film on the surface of glass and that film can have a deleterious effect on head retention. I don't know how "clean" dishwashers are (we prefer to wash our dishes by hand although we have a dishwasher and use it mainly as a drying rack) and whether grease from a previous load can end up being atomized and finely coating glassware. Detergent , I believe, does not form a film


----------



## jswordy

BernardSmith said:


> The thing about soap (is that what dishwashers use?) is that it forms a film on the surface of glass and that film can have a deleterious effect on head retention. I don't know how "clean" dishwashers are (we prefer to wash our dishes by hand although we have a dishwasher and use it mainly as a drying rack) and whether grease from a previous load can end up being atomized and finely coating glassware. Detergent , I believe, does not form a film



No worries. Dishwasher soap is specifically formulated to be gone when the cycle is done. That's why dishwashers leave glasses squeaky clean.

Use no soap, use hottest water/dry cycle where the machine is also heating the water as well as your water heater, get your bottles done and rock on... I put mine on the bottom rack with a spike through each one. I'll bet 95% of the water never gets inside, which is why they have to be clean going in. But the heat kills off the bugs. 

We wash our dishes in the dishwasher. Too busy to do otherwise. It didn't bother the head on my beer...





And that one was before it went the full distance on carb. I was dubious, but it works. Like I said, I am going to try this with my delabeled wine bottles next. It's just too easy.


----------



## petey_c

jswordy said:


> Yaaay! Now I am thirsty. It'll carb fine at 65 or so.


It might just take a little longer.
No need to dry star san. It devolves into something the yeast can eat.
Ferrari Avvintore Bottle Sanitizer. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001D6FUDC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Put star san (or the sanitizer of your choice) in the bottom, invert the bottle over the "spike." Press down once or twice and the inside of the bottle is now sanitized. It should take about 5 secs for each bottle. When I bottle beer, I usually get about 32 - 35 bottles. Sanitizing all takes about 5 - 10 minutes. I usually make 1/2 gal of star san (that's about 1/5th of an ounce). One quart for the bottle santizer and another to soak the caps. I keep the left over for use in a spray bottle for use on buckets, bottling wands, hydrometers, etc.


----------



## HB_in_Subic

I noticed that all of the kits that I have used come with a standard 4.5oz priming sugar packet. I never paid much attention to it but some types of beer you might want less foam to go with that style. 

I usually wash my bottles in hot water, then soak in PBW (a filled cooler that I can fit 18 one liter bottles in), rinse and I have no issues to date. I have Star San on the way and some one step also. I use the bottling bucket to 1) help minimize the sediment in the bottle and 2) to prime the beer as it siphons in (minimizing oxygenation).


----------



## jswordy

HB_in_Subic said:


> I noticed that all of the kits that I have used come with a standard 4.5oz priming sugar packet. I never paid much attention to it but some types of beer you might want less foam to go with that style.
> 
> I usually wash my bottles in hot water, then soak in PBW (a filled cooler that I can fit 18 one liter bottles in), rinse and I have no issues to date. I have Star San on the way and some one step also. I use the bottling bucket to 1) help minimize the sediment in the bottle and 2) to prime the beer as it siphons in (minimizing oxygenation).



If you look at the brewing sites, this is an endless discussion. One guy insists that 3.95 ounces per 5 gallons is perfect, then the next guy says no, use something else. And don't ask about what KIND of sugar to use. Whoa! LOL. It's like going on a car site and asking what's the best oil to use. 

But 1 oz. per gallon is the standard basis. 

I'd love to get a ball lock keg system sometime and force carb it to whatever I want. That system also allows for sweetening the beer if you want, since you can kill off the yeast and still get it carbed. But priming sugar gets the job done cheap.


----------



## Elmer

I was originally going to wait 2 weeks to bottle condition, however someone gave me the great idea of trying 1 after 1 week in a bottle, than at 2 weeks then 3 weeks drink the rest.

I was fearful that it would not be carbed at all, fortunately there was carbonation, just not as much as u had hopped. 7 days in and there was not much head. Hoping that another week In a Warmer room will help.
Taste wise. It is a smooth and almost flavorless at first, followed by a great hop and lastly citrus hoppy nees. The aftertaste of hops lingers.
Not a bad first beer


----------



## jswordy

Beer looks good!

You will see a marked improvement at 14 days. Winter affects it some. I went 19 days before chilling my batch. I don't see that long being needed when it's 90 here. 

It is strange. Even though the average temp in the house is not cold, just it being cold outside did seem to have an effect.

The beer will also clear some more, unless what I am seeing is a frosty glass. Lees should become compact at bottom of bottle, so you can easily pour off them and leave a little beer in the bottom.


----------



## Elmer

jswordy said:


> Beer looks good!
> 
> You will see a marked improvement at 14 days. Winter affects it some. I went 19 days before chilling my batch. I don't see that long being needed when it's 90 here.
> 
> It is strange. Even though the average temp in the house is not cold, just it being cold outside did seem to have an effect.
> 
> The beer will also clear some more, unless what I am seeing is a frosty glass. Lees should become compact at bottom of bottle, so you can easily pour off them and leave a little beer in the bottom.



I did not add irish moss to the boil so it will bit a little hazy.
I have spent the last day relentlessly looking for someplace warm to hide all my bottles.
My house is typically 68ish (when I am home) but 63 when I am not. 
Oddly enough it is also 63 on the floor where the bottles tend to reside.
What I tasted last night was under carbed, by drinkable. I will be curious to see what I get in another 2 weeks.

This beer thing will be so much easier when it is not 10 degrees outside.
(which is why I am going to wait until March to start my next boil)


----------



## wineinmd

Elmer said:


> So I had intended to bottle yesterday but it was brought to my attention that I should not sanitiZe with KMeta, but instead use star San.
> So I held off for a day and went and it some star San.
> Good think I waited a day because more yeast/sediment dropped out.
> Today I sanitized everything with star San, racked and bottled.
> The toughest part was sanitizing every bottle and letting the dry. I use an upside down milk carton to place the bottles in, was not as effective as I hoped, but it worked.
> 
> Bottling with the AIO made things go easy, I would fill 6 or 12 at a time and then cap. Slowing down the flow allowed the beer not to foam too much or degass too much.
> 
> I took a couple sips and it is good hoppy ipa, it is just currently not carbed.
> My biggest fear is not getting it to carb. I have most of my batch in the living room where it is 65 at its coolest. I put a dozen bottles in the basement where is 60, I covered these in 5 layers of heavy blankets.
> 
> Prep, sanitizing , bottling and clean up took about 3 hours.
> I would consider investing in a keg system just to save me some hassle.
> *I have already purchased my next kit American Cream Ale, all extract! I will save this for spring, summer.*
> 
> All in all this was an experience.


Congratulations on your first brew! I've been a homebrewer for the past couple years, and am reading as much as I can prior to my first winemaking adventure. I've spent lots of time on the sister site, homebrewtalk, and I've learned so much from there.

Make sure to store your extract kit in a cool, dark place and try to use it sooner rather than later. It has a finite shelf life, and your finished product will suffer if stored too long or kept for long periods outside of the ideal conditions.


----------



## jswordy

Elmer said:


> I did not add irish moss to the boil so it will bit a little hazy.
> I have spent the last day relentlessly looking for someplace warm to hide all my bottles.
> My house is typically 68ish (when I am home) but 63 when I am not.
> Oddly enough it is also 63 on the floor where the bottles tend to reside.
> What I tasted last night was under carbed, by drinkable. I will be curious to see what I get in another 2 weeks.
> 
> This beer thing will be so much easier when it is not 10 degrees outside.
> (which is why I am going to wait until March to start my next boil)



You'll be fine at 63-68. That's about what my house is and it worked out fine. It will clear better. I was amazed at mine. Nice compact lees that stay in the bottom of the bottle. I barely have to leave any fluid behind.

What a hobby, huh? The way you find out if it's carbonated enough is to drink a brew! What's not to like?

I stuck my kit in the fridge until I get to it.


----------



## petey_c

Elmer said:


> I was originally going to wait 2 weeks to bottle condition, however someone gave me the great idea of trying 1 after 1 week in a bottle, than at 2 weeks then 3 weeks drink the rest.
> 
> I was fearful that it would not be carbed at all, fortunately there was carbonation, just not as much as u had hopped. 7 days in and there was not much head. Hoping that another week In a Warmer room will help.
> Taste wise. It is a smooth and almost flavorless at first, followed by a great hop and lastly citrus hoppy nees. The aftertaste of hops lingers.
> Not a bad first beer
> View attachment 20341


You should find that carbonation will increase with time (to a degree). Tasting at least once a week allows you to see how taste and carb'ing develop. As you become more experienced and develop a "pipeline", you're less inclined to sample prematurely.


----------



## Elmer

2 weeks of bottle conditioning and the carb is at a good place.
The hop forward flavor has dissipated more than I thought, but there is more of subtle hop after taste.
Was not sure how hoppy I expected with 44 IBU.

Already planning my next 2 batches cream ale & black ipa


----------



## jswordy

That looks about perfect! It has cleared some more, too. Are the lees nice and compact in the bottom of the bottle? Mmmm. Hurry up clock! Time for a beer now!! 

I'm almost to the point of boiling the Scottish Ale kit. Elmer's urging me on with these posts!


----------



## wineinmd

jswordy said:


> That looks about perfect! It has cleared some more, too. Are the lees nice and compact in the bottom of the bottle? Mmmm. Hurry up clock! Time for a beer now!!
> 
> I'm almost to the point of boiling the Scottish Ale kit. Elmer's urging me on with these posts!


I've never had the yeast compact that quickly. Usually at least a month in bottles plus a week or so in the fridge might get you there. Earlier than that and you'll get some yeast that try to get out at the end of the pour. I generally leave the last little bit in the bottle when I pour mine to keep the little guys out of the glass.


----------



## jswordy

wineinmd said:


> I've never had the yeast compact that quickly. Usually at least a month in bottles plus a week or so in the fridge might get you there. Earlier than that and you'll get some yeast that try to get out at the end of the pour. I generally leave the last little bit in the bottle when I pour mine to keep the little guys out of the glass.



I have an old Coke chest cooler. When it hit my carb level, I slid those bad boys in there. Cooled it down and flocculated that Coopers Ale yeast right out. Nice. Yes, I leave a bit in the bottom. But if I pour real carefully, I can get 99% of it in the glass with no yeast.


----------



## Elmer

jswordy said:


> That looks about perfect! It has cleared some more, too. Are the lees nice and compact in the bottom of the bottle? Mmmm. Hurry up clock! Time for a beer now!!
> 
> I'm almost to the point of boiling the Scottish Ale kit. Elmer's urging me on with these posts!



Yes all the lees are at the bottom of the bottle.
It is not going to clear much more, because I did not use Irish Moss in the boil, so I believe I am stuck with the haze.

I learned a few things with this boil,(loosening the grain, steeping for 30 mins instead of 15, etc...)

I am going to make a all extract cream ale in the spring (got it for $23 due to store coupons) Then may try another partial grain, IPA, maybe a black IPA, which I am really enjoying these days!


----------



## petey_c

elmer, Your beer looks great. 
Any wheat in your grains? That might account for the cloudiness/haze. In addition to, or instead of, Irish Moss you could also have added Whirlfloc tablets about ten minutes before the end of the boil. Don't know if I've already suggested this, but you could also use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag from Home Depot/Lowes. Put the bag in your primary (after cooling) and pour the wort into that. It should help remove more of the hops and left over grains. You'll probably find that the bag will become clogged with "cling-ons" (my term) as you drain. You'll have to shake the bag or "thwack" the side of the bag to get them to drop off. The clearer the sides are the faster it will drain. O2 at this stage is a good thing. Sediment will be less of a problem with all extract kits, but I think partial makes a better beer. I haven't done all grain so I can't say for sure. 
If you want to try some Whirlfloc tablets for free PM me. I bought a pound (about 200+ tablets) and that's more than I will probably ever use.


----------



## Elmer

petey_c said:


> elmer, Your beer looks great.
> 
> Any wheat in your grains? That might account for the cloudiness/haze. In addition to, or instead of, Irish Moss you could also have added Whirlfloc tablets about ten minutes before the end of the boil. Don't know if I've already suggested this, but you could also use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag from Home Depot/Lowes. Put the bag in your primary (after cooling) and pour the wort into that. It should help remove more of the hops and left over grains. You'll probably find that the bag will become clogged with "cling-ons" (my term) as you drain. You'll have to shake the bag or "thwack" the side of the bag to get them to drop off. The clearer the sides are the faster it will drain. O2 at this stage is a good thing. Sediment will be less of a problem with all extract kits, but I think partial makes a better beer. I haven't done all grain so I can't say for sure.
> 
> If you want to try some Whirlfloc tablets for free PM me. I bought a pound (about 200+ tablets) and that's more than I will probably ever use.




I will plead ignorance on the wheat in my grains. My grains were 1# Crystal 20L, 8 oz Biscuit malt.

I popped another bottle today, just about 3 weeks in a bottle. All the flavors are coming together. It turned out to be a decent pale ale!


----------



## wineinmd

C


petey_c said:


> elmer, Your beer looks great.
> Any wheat in your grains? That might account for the cloudiness/haze. In addition to, or instead of, Irish Moss you could also have added Whirlfloc tablets about ten minutes before the end of the boil. Don't know if I've already suggested this, but you could also use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag from Home Depot/Lowes. Put the bag in your primary (after cooling) and pour the wort into that. It should help remove more of the hops and left over grains. You'll probably find that the bag will become clogged with "cling-ons" (my term) as you drain. You'll have to shake the bag or "thwack" the side of the bag to get them to drop off. The clearer the sides are the faster it will drain. O2 at this stage is a good thing. Sediment will be less of a problem with all extract kits, but I think partial makes a better beer. I haven't done all grain so I can't say for sure.
> If you want to try some Whirlfloc tablets for free PM me. I bought a pound (about 200+ tablets) and that's more than I will probably ever use.



He mentioned it was an extract kit with steeping grains, so it probably didn't have any wheat. The haze might have come from not getting a good hot break or cold break.


----------



## Elmer

3 weeks of bottle conditioning, all the flavors have come together.

It is a pale ale with subtle hop flavor.
It is very drinkable!
Very happy


----------



## jswordy

Don't know how you waited. I drank my last English Bitter last night! I did give away some. The last few did taste a lot better than the first few. I will have to learn this new concept of waiting for a beer. .


----------

