# Questions for the wine makers



## jamesngalveston (Jan 7, 2014)

Please answer for me...just curious...

1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.

1...Do you ferment to dry in primary.
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment.

1. Do you add sorbate before it clears.
2. Do you add sorbate after it clears.


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## JohnT (Jan 7, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> Please answer for me...just curious...
> 
> 1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
> 2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.
> ...


 
open ferment in unsealed vats (just toss a plastic tarp over it).

I transfer to secondary and continue to ferment dry there.

I add no sorbate. I age for 2 years and never back sweeten. A light filtration is all I need for nice, clear wine.


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## dralarms (Jan 7, 2014)

1 ferment with air lock
2 move to secondary to finish.
3 sorbate before clearing


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## wineforfun (Jan 7, 2014)

Ferment with loose lid
DB I ferment to dry, some of my fruit wines I transfer before dry
Sorbate when clear, a week before bottling


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## Scott (Jan 7, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> please answer for me...just curious...
> 
> 1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
> 2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.
> ...


 




2.
2.
2.


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## dangerdave (Jan 7, 2014)

I ferment in a plastic bucket with a lid placed on top (not snapped) covered with a cloth.

As you know, I ferment DB to dry in primary, as well as most of my fruit wines. With kits I "usually" follow the directions. Usually.

I normally add sulfite, sorbate, and the clearing agent after the wine has gone dry.

There have been exceptions to all of these.


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## DoctorCAD (Jan 7, 2014)

1. Open fermenter, non-snapped lid and towel
2. Ferment to 1.020 or so then move to carboy
3. I only sorbate wines I know will back-sweeten (I like really dry wine). I do sorbate when clear and ready to bottle.


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 7, 2014)

thanks for the replys...appreciate it.


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## wineforfun (Jan 7, 2014)

I have noticed in some recipes, it calls to rack to secondary when around 1.020-1.030, while others run everything dry in the primary.
I thought it was to get the "goods" off the gross lees, but alot of recipes don't do this and they taste good when finished too. Seems to just be a preference.
Please explain.


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## olusteebus (Jan 7, 2014)

2,2 and 1

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (had to do that because my post was too short.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2014)

Start fermentation in an open bucket with the cover laid on top, not snapped down tightly. Move to a secondary fermenter when SG is at or near 1.020 and continue fermentation to dry. I rarely add potassium sorbate, but if I do add it, I do so when wine is clear.


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 7, 2014)

gus, i have no idea about why some recipes do what they do are why some do opposite..
It really does not make sense...One article says let it go dry in primary, another says nooooooooooooo...
One article post kit says sorbate when you move to secondary,
another says wait for it to clear.
One article, etc says ferment with lid on and airlock, one says 
no lid and cover..


None of it makes sense, except .....it all makes wine.


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 7, 2014)

Rocky , If you said you added sorbate in a cloudy wine, I would change my opinion of you......I consider you one of the better wine makers....


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## Deezil (Jan 7, 2014)

Depends on what you're making.

Trying to ferment a warm, red grape wine, in a closed bucket with an airlock & you'll be repainting your ceiling

Trying to cool ferment something like a traditional mead or Riesling grape wine, in an open bucket, all the way to dry, and you may get some oxidation - maybe not enough to change the color, but it will affect the flavor a touch. 

If you rack to secondary to finish the fermentation, do you take the sediment with it, in hopes of fermenting dry, or do you leave most of the sediment behind to see if you can 'hang'/'stick' the fermentation for some residual sweetness? The latter doesnt always work, but does sometimes. I dont advise it for new winemakers. 

The only time I could see any reason to add sorbate to a cloudy wine, would be in an instance where you're making a high-flavor, low-alcohol, sweeter wine/cider. If you're in secondary, and you want to add more flavor layers (fruits added in secondary have a chance at retaining natural flavors and sugars for residual sweetness when the yeast are starting to decline, old meadmakers trick), then sorbate may help. Other than that, always added to cleared wines. 

That's part of the reason why you find so many differing opinions. Part of it is the outcome they're hoping to achieve.. The other part is the date at which they posted the information.. Wine making science and knowledge is developing so fast that it's difficult for those of us who are trying, to even keep up with it. 

I have some 'general' things that I do, but to make every batch exactly the same way, regardless of flavor, style and approach.. It's limiting yourself, in my eyes.


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## cimbaliw (Jan 7, 2014)

As a 14 month "veteran," the nebulous, gaseous cloud of technique is still cooling and condensing. Red kits, white kits, Expensive kits, mid priced kits, SP/DB, apfelwein all get treated a bit differently. I'm not sure I ever want that to change?


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## pjd (Jan 7, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> Please answer for me...just curious...
> 
> 1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
> 2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.
> ...



2
1
2 almost never happens, I don't like or make sweet wine so rarely use sorbate.


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## the_rayway (Jan 7, 2014)

1) Open bucket with towel or loose lid.
2) Whatever I feel like
3) I used to add sorbate in secondary, but now will be waiting until I actually decide to back-sweeten.


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## Johngottshall (Jan 7, 2014)

Closed w/ airlock 

Move to secondary then let go to dry back sweeten to taste

Sorbate after it clears few days later bottle.


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## jpsmithny (Jan 7, 2014)

Ferment closed with airlock. 
Move to secondary and ferment to dry.

Have not used sorbate yet as I have not back sweetened any of my wines so far. 

Of course, from the good people here, I have learned to wait until it is clear.


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## Rodnboro (Jan 7, 2014)

2
Most of the time 2
2


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## tonyt (Jan 7, 2014)

Loose lid no air lock.
Transfer to secondary for two weeks rest and finish fermenting.
Almost always Sorbate, usually at clearing.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 7, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> Please answer for me...just curious...
> 
> 1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
> 2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.
> ...



Ferment closed or open. For me it really depends on what I am doing, reds I almost always do open. Whites I usually do closed with an airlock, they just seem to oxidize so easily. 

I usually move to secondary at about 1.01 or lower.

If I am doing a kit, I generally follow the directions. Most of the other wines I make are dry and I don't add sorbate. For the ones I do add sorbate I add it whenever I feel like it. Generally it isn't fully clear. Oh and I generally put the sorbate and kmeta in the bottom of a Carboy and rack the wine onto it.


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## BernardSmith (Jan 7, 2014)

Deezil said:


> Depends on what you're making.
> 
> Trying to ferment a warm, red grape wine, in a closed bucket with an airlock & you'll be repainting your ceiling
> 
> ...



I agree with Manley. Different techniques result in different outcomes and different wine makers come to wine making from different approaches. Mead makers focus on certain aspects of the process and have specific concerns and not others and beer makers focus of different aspects of the process and have different concerns and not some, and those who make wine from fruit and grapes have concerns that come from yet different concerns. For example, mead makers talk about degassing in the primary but wine makers on this forum might refer to this same activity as aeration. Mead makers are not nearly as concerned about oxidation as wine makers so those different concerns help shape how different fermenters work with their yeast and sugars.


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## LoneStarLori (Jan 7, 2014)

open lid with cloth
dry in primary
sorbate with clearing agent as per kit directions. Which, i probably won't do anymore since I have learned it's not always necessary. Why sorbate if it's dry?

Now with that said, I would have to open a can of worms and suggest that as long as it's not dry, no matter what vessel it's in, that would still be considered primary. (At least this is what I have read and it makes sense to me)


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## Deezil (Jan 7, 2014)

LoneStarLori said:


> Now with that said, I would have to open a can of worms and suggest that as long as it's not dry, no matter what vessel it's in, that would still be considered primary. (At least this is what I have read and it makes sense to me)



The confusion in this can of worms, lies in wording;

There's a primary vessel and a secondary vessel - open top fermenters & glass carboys, for one example.

Then there's what the yeast do - primary fermentation being aerobic, or when the yeast actually consume and use oxygen to their benefit; and secondary fermentation, when the yeast go anaerobic, and no longer need oxygen to maintain health.

So you can rack TO a secondary vessel, before the yeast are IN secondary fermentation - and this is when we see airlocks get clogged and 6th grade science experiment volcanoes

or

You can rack from a primary vessel to a secondary vessel, after the yeast have shifted from aerobic fermentation to anaerobic fermentation - this is letting it go dry, in the bucket


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## LoneStarLori (Jan 7, 2014)

I agree, it's in the wording. The way the question was posed I take it to mean that #2 implies that it is still in aerobic.

_"1...Do you ferment to dry in primary.
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment."_


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## ShawnDTurner (Jan 8, 2014)

Ferment in closed vessel with airlock. Ferment to dry in primary. Add sorbate only if backsweeten, but allow wine to clear first. Cheers1


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## eblasmn9 (Jan 8, 2014)

For my reds I ferment to between 1.020 and 1.010 in primary with loose lid.
I transfer to secondary around day 20-22. I stabilize with kmeta without
adding sorbate or clearing agents. I bulk age between 6 to 9 months with a ride in the the vadai for 3 to 4 months somewhere in there. With white wines I pretty much follow the directions using a 5-20-40-90 day schedule(primary for 5 days, secondary for 15 days,20 days clearing, 50 days in bulk.
All that said these are general rules. As long as the wine is done fermenting and I get the wine stabilized at day 20-25 and keep the proper sulfites in the wine at 3 month intervals, I don't sweat several days one way or another on all the other steps.


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## wineforfun (Jan 8, 2014)

So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?


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## BernardSmith (Jan 8, 2014)

Deezil said:


> The confusion in this can of worms, lies in wording;
> 
> There's a primary vessel and a secondary vessel - open top fermenters & glass carboys, for one example.
> 
> ...



I think you have hit something on the head about how different folk use the same terms for different things. I say that because I would have said that primary fermentation is what the yeast does and secondary fermentation is what happens when bacteria change malic acid to lactic acid. There is the primary fermenter and the secondary fermenter but for me the primary fermentation is still going on in the secondary fermenter, it's just that the secondary fermenter seals out the air. That does not make the fermentation different. 
Also , I am not sure of the bio-chemistry but I think yeast may need oxygen to reproduce. I don't think they need oxygen to ferment. Someone who knows about yeast physiology can correct me but I think you really want to most if not all the reproduction to take place very early so that the sugar the yeast consume is transformed into alcohol rather than used up as part of their reproductive process leaving you with very little alcohol as a by-product


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 8, 2014)

good question....this is why I would like to know..considering the 2 phases of ferment.
I did itendical batches..
one ferment to dry in open bucket ..took 7 days.
one moved to secondary at 1.010 took 17 days.
no difference in color
no difference in taste.. you couldnt tell them apart.
not advising..just saying


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 8, 2014)

maybe with grapes its diffrent...i dont make wine from grapes..


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## StoneCreek (Jan 8, 2014)

wineforfun said:


> So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?



I second that question. Not because I have an opinion but because I'm learning.


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## Elmer (Jan 8, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> Please answer for me...just curious...
> 
> 1. Do you ferment in a closed bucket with airlock
> 2. Do you ferment in an open bucket with cloth,etc cover.
> ...



Ferment with a cloth over the top, or the bucket top loosely sitting atop

1...Do you ferment to dry in primary. -Only with DB/SP
2...Do you move to secondary and let it go dry are complete ferment. kits (as instructed)

Sorbate before it clears!


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## Scott (Jan 8, 2014)

wineforfun said:


> So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?


 


IMO it is easier to remove a stopper to verify completion than to unsnap the bucket lid. Also as a bonus you can watch the air lock working!!

Many different ways to get to the same spot.


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## Deezil (Jan 8, 2014)

wineforfun said:


> So those of you that transfer it before it is dry, why do you do that and not just let it run dry in the primary?





Deezil said:


> Depends on what you're making.
> 
> *Trying to cool ferment something like a traditional mead or Riesling grape wine, in an open bucket, all the way to dry, and you may get some oxidation - maybe not enough to change the color, but it will affect the flavor a touch. *
> 
> If you rack to secondary to finish the fermentation, do you take the sediment with it, in hopes of fermenting dry, or *do you leave most of the sediment behind to see if you can 'hang'/'stick' the fermentation for some residual sweetness*? The latter doesnt always work, but does sometimes. I dont advise it for new winemakers.







BernardSmith said:


> I think you have hit something on the head about how different folk use the same terms for different things. I say that because I would have said that primary fermentation is what the yeast does and secondary fermentation is what happens when bacteria change malic acid to lactic acid *(1)*. There is the primary fermenter and the secondary fermenter but for me the primary fermentation is still going on in the secondary fermenter *(2)*, it's just that the secondary fermenter seals out the air. That does not make the fermentation different.
> Also , I am not sure of the bio-chemistry but I think yeast may need oxygen to reproduce *(3)*. I don't think they need oxygen to ferment *(4)*. Someone who knows about yeast physiology can correct me but I think you really want to most if not all the reproduction to take place very early so that the sugar the yeast consume is transformed into alcohol rather than used up as part of their reproductive process leaving you with very little alcohol as a by-product



1 - This wouldn't technically be 'secondary fermentation', but instead 'malolactic fermentation'. I've seen it described both ways (depending on the date of the publication), but with a need for clarity, that's how I've always had in my head.

2 - By the time the yeast makes it to the secondary fermenter, they are already in anaerobic fermentation (secondary fermentation), because, as you noted, yeast only need oxygen for reproduction / cell division.

3 & 4 - 'Tis true, but where do we draw the line on when they go anaerobic? There's a multitude of generations of yeast, all working within the same environment, so to call it anaerobic when the first generation does so, would be too early, and waiting for the last generation might be too late. So the final generations, to an extent, would _ideally _have to rely on a certain amount of dissolved oxygen to live a normal, healthy, life. 

You'll read, especially in 'white papers', about yeast having a 'lag phase'. This 'lag phase' is actually the mass-majority of the reproduction taking place, and the fermentation that follows is generally a large majority of the yeast that will ever live in the wine, all working together at once. The yeast colony will hit a "critical mass", at which point they shift from cell division to digestion of sugars. 

This means we could theoretically rack to a closed/secondary vessel, after the lag phase, if we could separate the liquid from the solids (and stand the loss in quality, due to leaving behind all the goodies still locked within said-solids) but thats typically not the case (not only because of the goodies, but also because of the strength/rate of the fermentation at this point). 

So we end up, attempting to find the happy-medium between allowing the solids enough time to disintegrate, the yeast enough time to multiply to get the job done, and racking before things start to oxidize or get infected (without being so-soon as to pop the airlock off the carboy & volcano). Hence the large 'racking to secondary (vessel)' range - everything between 1.040 & dry. 

So, to be 'technically correct':

1 - There's two vessel types - primary / open-top fermenters, secondary / closed-top fermenters

2 - There's three fermentation types - primary / aerobic, secondary / anaerobic, and malolactic fermentation

3 - Winemaker's cant all agree on anything except, "I'll have another glass"


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 8, 2014)

deezil, out of everything I have learned here...

3 - Winemaker's cant all agree on anything except, "I'll have another glass" 

I learned that the first week......

ohhh and deezil....sorry to say but new orleans aint going to rest on their laurels this go round......lol
I know you a hawks fan.


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## BernardSmith (Jan 8, 2014)

jamesngalveston said:


> good question....this is why I would like to know..considering the 2 phases of ferment.
> I did itendical batches..
> one ferment to dry in open bucket ..took 7 days.
> one moved to secondary at 1.010 took 17 days.
> ...



Good science needs good data. When you say "identical batches" are you saying that you made a single batch of must then divided it in two and pitched a single batch of yeast that you had rehydrated, allowed to reproduce and then divided it into two and pitched or are you saying that you made two SIMILAR batches and pitched two SIMILAR batches of yeast? If the first then your data are interesting. If the second then there could be many reasons for the different results. Whether you could or could not "tell them apart" may or may not be significant. When I was a kid, family and friends could not tell me and my brother apart but that did not mean that we were identical. ::


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## jamesngalveston (Jan 8, 2014)

Should have clarified a bit.
I made a 6 gallon batch.. split it into two 3s.
added on pkg of red star pasteur red yeast to each
one went dry in the primary to .990
the second i moved to secondary at 1.010 and let it go to .990
both were cleared using same clearing agent
both were sorbated after they were clear


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## GreginND (Jan 8, 2014)

2
1 or 2
2


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## mikewatkins727 (Jan 8, 2014)

Wine making is not an exact science. The recipes are just guides. I know, I watch my wife cook. She has recipes and follows them . . . somewhat. If a wine recipe works for you, use it. Feel free to change / experiment it. If you want to do a little reading on the internet about wine making, may I suggest Jack Keller at http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/starting.asp. I refer to his methods and recipes frequently.


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## reefman (Jan 9, 2014)

Most of the time I'm:
2- gets O2 into must
2-keeps my carboys busy and allows me to view progress.
2-clear, P. Sorbate, sweeten, wait a couple weeks and bottle.
Almost all my wines are back sweetened.


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## JetJockey (Jan 11, 2014)

So, after reading these 5 pages, things are clearer now and I appreciate the clarifications! The one question I didn't see answered is: When racking from the primary vessel to the secondary vessel BEFORE dry, how much of the lees do you transfer to the secondary vessel, or conversely how much of the lees do you leave in the primary vessel and discard?


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## Deezil (Jan 12, 2014)

JetJockey said:


> So, after reading these 5 pages, things are clearer now and I appreciate the clarifications! The one question I didn't see answered is: When racking from the primary vessel to the secondary vessel BEFORE dry, how much of the lees do you transfer to the secondary vessel, or conversely how much of the lees do you leave in the primary vessel and discard?



I transfer them all, when I want the fermentation to continue to 'dry'. When fermentation has stopped (same SG for 3 days in a row), I'll then isolate the 'gross lees', usually in a quart jar, and allow them to settle so I can recover wine I would otherwise lose, without those lees impacting the flavor of the whole batch.


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## JetJockey (Jan 12, 2014)

As A newbie, what are "Gross Lees" compared to the rest of the gunk in the bottom of the carboy and how do you isolate just them? Should I assume that after racking to the secondary vessel, you wait until dry, then rack again into another carboy and pour the lees from the first carboy into a quart jar to further settle?


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2014)

Rightly or wrongly, I leave most of the gross lees behind, only taking what I inadvertantly slurp up with the racking cane. As Deezil indicated, I also put the gross lees in a quart jar to settle to recover some more wine for topping up later.


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## Deezil (Jan 12, 2014)

JetJockey said:


> As A newbie, what are "Gross Lees" compared to the rest of the gunk in the bottom of the carboy and how do you isolate just them? Should I assume that after racking to the secondary vessel, you wait until dry, then rack again into another carboy and pour the lees from the first carboy into a quart jar to further settle?



Gross lees is everything included in the first sediment-drop; fruit pieces, large amounts of dead yeast - anything that has precipitated out in the first couple days after fermentation has finished. These lees are often fluffy or chunky in appearance, and when left in the wine for an extended time, will begin to degrade, and long story short, end up causing flavors and aromas, that are definitely unwanted.

After gross lees, are 'sur lees', which are finer, more like a fine dusting on the bottom of the carboy, and these take several weeks to gather. These are mostly dead yeast, and are used (on some wine styles) for techniques like _battonage_; they aren't going to harm the wine as quickly, although they can seem to put a damper on the aroma of a wine, so it's recommended in most cases to rack off of these lees often enough to limit exposure without over-exposing the wine to oxygen from repeated rackings. 

And your assumption, is right on-target. When the SG has been the same for three days, I'll rack from that - usually carboy - to another carboy, leaving behind all the sediment I can; the sediment goes into a quart jar for settling. 

Most times, personally, I'll run my vacuum pump pre-racking the gross lees, to get more of the solids to drop & I'll give it an hour or two to settle - just whenever I get back to it later in the same day, and rack it off the sediment then. Between the vacuum-degassing, and racking off the gross lees to another carboy, the sur lees drop faster it seems. I've also been playing with meads recently though, and they hold more dissolved CO2 for whatever reason - massive amounts of degassing to do, to get all the sediment to drop.


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## joeswine (Jan 12, 2014)

*Fermentation to bucket or not*

From the beginning i have made wine in a open fermenter,better surface area to work in, a greater surface space for the oxygen to encourage the yeast to become more active,and to control the overall operating conditions of the wine_*,i have control*_,and if i chose to move the wine it,s easier to transfer without spilling ,whether i symphony or mechanical transfer,but you need the room and the speed to do this on command ,your always watching the* SG, that's the clock*,transferring just before you go totally dry* for me,is, the key i watch for*,.



THE LEES CAN STAY RIGHT WERE THEY ARE UNLESS YOUR RECYCLING THEM THROUGH ,BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE IN A OPEN FERMENTER,WITH FRESH JUST OR A KIT ,WITH GRAPES YOUR PUNCHING DOWN ALL THE WHILE,DEEZIL IS CORRECT IN THE FACT IT CAN BE DONE IF YOU ARE IN A GLASS OR CASK AND SOMETIMES I DO JUST THAT BEFORE GOING INTO A THIRD STAGE SETTLEMENT,BEFORE CHEMS AND FINING AGENTS MOSTLY ON REDS.JUST MY THOUGHTS.................JP

 I KNOW THIS WILL TOUCH OF A STORM OF DISCONTENT,BECARFUL USING A VACUUM PUMP SYSTEM,THEY HAVE A DOWN SIDES FOR THE INEXPERIENCED USER......BUT IT CAN BE A GOOD TOOL TO HAVE IN YOUR TOOL BOX FOR THE RIGHT PURPOSE..


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## terroirdejeroir (Jan 15, 2014)

I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate on the reasons for the timing of adding sorbate? I have done it with clear wine and with cloudy wine. Doesn't seem to matter much from my experience.


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## JetJockey (Jan 15, 2014)

joeswine said:


> I KNOW THIS WILL TOUCH OF A STORM OF DISCONTENT,BECARFUL USING A VACUUM PUMP SYSTEM,THEY HAVE A DOWN SIDES FOR THE INEXPERIENCED USER......BUT IT CAN BE A GOOD TOOL TO HAVE IN YOUR TOOL BOX FOR THE RIGHT PURPOSE..



Joe,
Care to elaborate what the downsides are? It would be helpful to know how to "be careful using a vacuum pump system" and what to watch for.


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## tonyt (Jan 15, 2014)

terroirdejeroir said:


> I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate on the reasons for the timing of adding sorbate? I have done it with clear wine and with cloudy wine. Doesn't seem to matter much from my experience.


I'll let one of the smart members explain the reason for adding Sorbate but I can comment on the when. I usually hold off on adding the Sorbate until close to bottling time. That's when I decide if I will add any back sweetening syrup or sugar. If I add any sugar product (usually no more than 4 ounces per 6 gallons of wine) then I add the Sorbate. If I never add any sugars I don't use the Sorbate at all.

And you're right it doesn't matter when you add the Sorbate.


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