# Understanding PH



## drainsurgeon (Jul 17, 2016)

Newbie question here. I know absolutely nothing about PH levels in wine. In my reading the last couple of weeks here it has been mentioned how important it is to get the PH right "before" fermentation. So,

What should the starting PH level be?
What is the best way to test that level? 
How do you correct it (up or down)?
Do post fermentation PH levels need to be adjusted?

I have run a search here and having difficulty coming up with anything.

Educate me, please.


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## Johnd (Jul 17, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Newbie question here. I know absolutely nothing about PH levels in wine. In my reading the last couple of weeks here it has been mentioned how important it is to get the PH right "before" fermentation. So,
> 
> What should the starting PH level be?
> What is the best way to test that level?
> ...



Shoot for a Ph in the 3.35 - 3.7 for reds, I tend to the lower end, especially with white wines. 

Test with a good quality Ph meter for best results. 

Up with Potassium Bicarbonate, down with Tartaric acid. 

If they are in the range of a good, stable wine, no, but taste your wine and do some bench trials to see how acidity affects your taste perception of the wine.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 17, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Shoot for a Ph in the 3.35 - 3.7 for reds, I tend to the lower end, especially with white wines.
> 
> Test with a good quality Ph meter for best results.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the quick response John. Just looked at a meter at Midwest Supplys and it runs about $50 compared to $7 for test strips. Is the meter as accurate as the strips? (maybe more so??) I just started a batch last night so can I test/adjust after pitching as long as active fermentation has not started yet?

In general, do fruit wines need much adjusting?


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## Stressbaby (Jul 17, 2016)

I'll give this one a go...

Usually wine pH is 3.2 to 3.6 with whites on the lower end and reds on the higher end. There are exceptions - for yucks I've tested some commercial NZ sauv blancs which come in around 3.0.

Best way to test is pH meter, there are many threads that will help you find one.

You correct it down with acid (tartaric, citric, malic, or an acid blend). I have quit using acid blend in fruit wines, I don't like the malic component. I pretty much only use either straight tartaric, straight citric, or a mix of the two.

You correct it up with calcium carbonate preferment, or with potassium carbonate postferment. Better to do it preferment. Postferment K2CO3 doesn't change the pH as much and requires cold stabilization. A wine like blackberry will generally need an upward adjustment to bring the pH into an acceptable range.

At the risk of confusing things, you can also change the pH with cold stabilization by precipitating tartaric acid (this assumes that you have any amount of tartaric acid in the must to begin with). The pH can actually go either way depending on your starting pH so be careful here and research or ask first.

Postfermentation pH and acid levels may need to be adjusted. For my fruit wines, my approach is to move the pH down around 3.5 preferment then "fine tune" with further acid additions postferment. It is way easier to increase the acid/decrease the pH than it is to do the opposite.


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## Stressbaby (Jul 17, 2016)

The meter is WAY more accurate than test strips.


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## dorfie (Jul 17, 2016)

Second the meter being more precise than the strips! the strips might give you the general number (example: pH of 2) but it isn't good for much more than that, and it is often off. they more or less just tell you if something is basic or acid, and roughly how basic of acid, but not very precise on that. 
I still don't use a pH meter, I know I maybe should, but I don't. I test TA with a titration and adjust accordingly.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 17, 2016)

I test TA with a titration and adjust accordingly.

You might as well have been a Concord Jet flying over at 50,000'

Anyone care to translate? (snails pace please, and barely above sea level)


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## dorfie (Jul 17, 2016)

Sorry! TA=Total Acidy or Total Acid. 
Here is an article that will explain it much more eloquently than I will: http://www.eckraus.com/blog/difference-between-ph-and-titratable-acidity-in-wine

TLDR: pH represents how much acid is in a wine regardless of how strong it tastes, whereas a titration measures how strong that acid tastes. However pH is important for the preservation of the wine.


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## NorCal (Jul 17, 2016)

pH is tricky; the lower the number the more acidic it is. It is also logarithmic; a 3.2 pH wine is much more acidic than a 3.9 pH wine. 

Besides taste, another important reason to control pH is that the effectiveness of the SO2 is very dependent upon the pH. A 3.2 pH wine requires 26 ppm free SO2, while a 3.9 pH wine takes nearly 4X that amount. I shoot for and adjust to between 3.4-3.6.


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## Masbustelo (Jul 17, 2016)

TA=Titrateable Acid, which measures the actual amount of acid present per litre.


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## DoctorCAD (Jul 17, 2016)

Step 1. The correct term is "small"" p ,"BIG" H


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 17, 2016)

Ok, I'm starting to understand. I'll go get a ph meter tomorrow. I pitched the yeast just a bit ago as I'm at 23 hours post nutrients. I still have not had a reply to the question: can I still adjust PH even though the batch is started? Let's say I get home tomorrow night (with ph meter in hand) and not much is going on yet as far as an active ferment. Can I still make adjustments a day or two into ferment? There is about 100 oz of Pineapple juice and 2 cans of Welches white grape concentrate in the 7 gallon batch. (and 13# of fruit) Anyone familiar with the tropical blend Dragons Blood recipe? I was surprised that there was no lemon or lime juice in this version. The other unanswered question is, do fruit wines generally need adjusting? Thanks again for all the help.


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## NorCal (Jul 18, 2016)

You can adjust at any time, including post fermentation. If it is a big adjustment during an active fermentation, I would step feed it in, versus doing it all at once.


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## Johny99 (Jul 18, 2016)

NorCal is right. I've adjusted after mlf when necessary. However, be careful of big changes during fermentation. Small doses are safest.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 21, 2016)

Norcal and Johny99, Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated!


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## Johny99 (Jul 22, 2016)

Stressbaby said:


> The meter is WAY more accurate than test strips.



And well worth the money. You need accuracy of .02. Used ones are easy to find, just make sure you get a good probe. Automatic temperature compensation is convenient, otherwise be sure to do it.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 26, 2016)

OK, just received my pH meter from ebay and ran downstairs to test the two I've got going right now. The Tropical Blend (Dragon Blood) is at 3.4 and the Skeeter Pee is at 2.7. Both are done with ferment and both have NOT been back sweetened yet. (and taste like crap I might add, but the DB did too at this stage) I think the Tropical Blend is ok, but the Skeeter Pee needs to be raised according to what I've been told on this thread. To at least 3.3 correct? 3.4-3.6 sounds optimum but 3.3-3.7 is the range?? I'll pick up some Potassium Bicarbonate tomorrow and see what I can do with it.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 30, 2016)

NorCal said:


> pH is tricky; the lower the number the more acidic it is. It is also logarithmic; a 3.2 pH wine is much more acidic than a 3.9 pH wine.
> 
> Besides taste, another important reason to control pH is that the effectiveness of the SO2 is very dependent upon the pH. A 3.2 pH wine requires 26 ppm free SO2, while a 3.9 pH wine takes nearly 4X that amount. I shoot for and adjust to between 3.4-3.6.



OK, this is still a little confusing. Understanding that a lower pH # means it is more acidic. So when "raising" with Potassium Carbonate is to actually "lower" the acidity, correct? Then to "lower" with Acid Blend is to actually "raise" the acidity. Or do I have them backwards.

To clarify, I have two wines going right now that read 2.7 (postferment) and one at 3.1 (preferment) that I just started last night (no yeast pitched yet). They both need to be "raised" with Potassium Carbonate?


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## Masbustelo (Jul 30, 2016)

The pH number needs to become bigger and the TA number needs to become smaller. Less acid usually gives a higher pH.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 30, 2016)

Masbustelo said:


> The pH number needs to become bigger and the TA number needs to become smaller. Less acid usually gives a higher pH.



I understand that. I have a wine with a pH of 3.1 that I want to raise to 3.5 (or lower the acidity). Which product do I use? Acid blend or Potassium Carbonate?


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## ibglowin (Jul 30, 2016)

You want to "drop acid" which would then raise the pH (less acidic) so you want the Potassium Carbonate. The addition of Acid (of any type) would do the reverse.


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## drainsurgeon (Jul 30, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> You want to "drop acid" which would then raise the pH (less acidic) so you want the Potassium Carbonate. The addition of Acid (of any type) would do the reverse.



TYVM! I thought that was right but the local wine shop told me the opposite. I came home this afternoon with both and tried the Calcium Carbonate in a glass first, then into the primary and the pH went from 3.1 to 3.5 with 3 teaspoons into 6 gallons. Mission accomplished. Now, what to do with the fermented Skeeter Pee at 2.7. According to Stressbaby I use the Potassium Carbonate "Post ferment". They didn't have any so I'll have to do some searching.


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## dorfie (Jul 31, 2016)

I would not adjust the Ph of the skeeter pee at all. The recipe is pretty solid without adjusting the Ph, and since you are sweetening it the low Ph is offset by the sweetness. i am concerned if you raise the Ph you will remove the "lemon tartness" of the wine. 
the Ph guidelines are only that, guidelines. yes wines are normally within a certain range, but the range is relatively wide, and there are outliers, where the wine tastes best at a lower Ph than normally recommended, like Skeeter Pee, just my two cents.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 2, 2016)

dorfie said:


> I would not adjust the Ph of the skeeter pee at all. The recipe is pretty solid without adjusting the Ph, and since you are sweetening it the low Ph is offset by the sweetness. i am concerned if you raise the Ph you will remove the "lemon tartness" of the wine.
> the Ph guidelines are only that, guidelines. yes wines are normally within a certain range, but the range is relatively wide, and there are outliers, where the wine tastes best at a lower Ph than normally recommended, like Skeeter Pee, just my two cents.



Thanks very much. I just back sweetened it with 6 cans of Cranberry concentrate and 2 cups sugar to 1.01 yesterday. It's already clear as a bell but I'll wait about 2 weeks to bottle just to make sure. I'll leave the pH alone as advised. Taste's pretty good already!


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 2, 2016)

Just found an interesting read on TA vs. pH on Jack Keller's site. He prefers to stay at 3.4 or below for most of his wine's with 3.5 being his limit. It's from his blog on Sept 30 of 2014 if you care to read.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 2, 2016)

Drainsurgeon - Hang in there! Been there done that and after one year just about come to grips with the issues of pH and TA testing.

pH meters can be had for as little as $15.00 or (believe it or not) Over $5,000.00 YEAH that's crazy. I paid about $20.00 on amazon and it works just fine. Be prepared to invest a little in the calibration solutions ($15.00 - $20.00/year perhaps) and some distilled water - that's about it.

Personally I am concerned that my wine will keep so I focus on the pH readings. As long my finished wine is under 3.7 I'm happy. 
TA testing, to me, is optional. You can use your taste buds to monitor the wine as it ferments and more importantly, as it ages.

Bottom line a meter is easy easy to use. Buy a good meter (Normally less than $50.00 unless you plan on doing wine making for a second income) couple of bottles of distilled water, some calibration solutions and go for it.

For almost all of our wines a pH of 3.35-3.7 should be fine. If your wine drifts above 3.7 (becoming less acidic) it could spoil on you even in the best storage conditions. 
As far as too acidic - I've found several commercial wineries who listed the pH of their wines and they were at 3.18, 3.20 etc and yet they clearly felt that wasn't too acidic. Again that comes back to what acids are in the wine and how they taste - that's where their vintners/wine tasters earn their keep and that's where we all have different likes and dislikes. (If you read many threads on here you will understand what I'm saying.)


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 2, 2016)

Appreciate the encouragement Scooter. I purchased a pH meter off Ebay a couple of weeks ago. After calibrating and testing the 3 wines I had going. I also tested my well water and water out of my osmosis machine. I found them to be 7.0 and 6.5. If I tested those for say, 6-12 months, and if there is no change.....can't I just use their readings as a means to calibrate?


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## ibglowin (Aug 2, 2016)

No you could not. Water be it well water or RO is not stable. Buffers are just that stable. That is why you use buffers to calibrate a pH meter and not water.


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## cmason1957 (Aug 2, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> Appreciate the encouragement Scooter. I purchased a pH meter off Ebay a couple of weeks ago. After calibrating and testing the 3 wines I had going. I also tested my well water and water out of my osmosis machine. I found them to be 7.0 and 6.5. If I tested those for say, 6-12 months, and if there is no change.....can't I just use their readings as a means to calibrate?



You want your calibration to be near the range of where you plan to measure. I do the 4.01 and 7.01 and then verify against a 3.1 (or some numbers like that). Most of the time we as winemakers are in the 3-4 range.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 2, 2016)

If you take good care of the meter in terms of pre-soaking before testing, rinsing well with tap water then with distilled water and dry it gently - you shouldn't have any problem. I only use tap water so that I can get all of the wine liquid rinsed off. Just remember to turn off the meter before rinsing. Today I checked the calibration of my $20.00 pH meter and after 5 month of occasional use it was off by - 0.00 - ZERO I was a little surprised as I expected a little drift - but I figure good maintenance helps keep it from having problems. The cost of the buffer solutions is just one of those little things that comes with the hobby.


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## Johny99 (Aug 2, 2016)

Some random thoughts on the subject as I've spent a ton of time on it.

A caution on "less expensive" meters. While the display has the resolution, the meter electronics do not. As a winemaker you care about .01 pH differences. A difference of 3.51 to 3.56 matters to wine. Look at the specs. Does it display to .01 but only has a resolution of .5? That is a real spec on a readily available less expensive meter. 

Definitely use carefully stored buffers for calibration. Even those change over time and should be regularly replaced. 

i agree pH is a better tool than TA when trying to make a sound wine. However, they are not directly linked and TA has a different taste impact than pH. I measure TA for an initial picture of the wine, then manage pH. I confess I use pH to pick as it is easier to measure a field sample than TA. "If you know the pH, you can get by without knowing the TA of your wines." Mark Stanley Creating World Class Red Wines. 

It is important to maintain the meter and probe and make sure the probe is properly filed. A replaceable probe will lengthen the life of the meter as the probe is what ages and fails. Regenerating a dead probe is possible but iffy and a pain. 

I've done lab work with different high quality meters, several $1,000s range. They calibrate differently each time. Measure a buffer today, and again tomorrow and they vary. Thus, I'm suspicious of inexpensive meters that seem to be stable. I suspect (although I don't want to disparage anyone's meter) that the electronics just are not good enough to measure the difference. The physics of measuring pH is too complex, as is pH itself, to be consistent at different times and temperatures. 

Lastly, pH varies versus temperature, so either correct for temperature or use a meter/probe with auto temp correction.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 3, 2016)

OK, I think I'm finally getting a handle on this pH stuff, despite curve balls from you guys. This morning I check a Dragon Blood variation I started 6 days ago. It was initially 3.1 on the meter and raised it to 3.5 with calcium carbonate. Day 6 at 1.036 SG and for the heck of it I check the pH and its 2.9  Now I know some are going to ask about temp, and it is 12 degrees higher, but my meter is supposed to be temp adjusting. What caused this and do I try to correct it back up again? I have been warned about trying to adjust an active ferment.


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## Johnd (Aug 3, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> OK, I think I'm finally getting a handle on this pH stuff, despite curve balls from you guys. This morning I check a Dragon Blood variation I started 6 days ago. It was initially 3.1 on the meter and raised it to 3.5 with calcium carbonate. Day 6 at 1.036 SG and for the heck of it I check the pH and its 2.9  Now I know some are going to ask about temp, and it is 12 degrees higher, but my meter is supposed to be temp adjusting. What caused this and do I try to correct it back up again? I have been warned about trying to adjust an active ferment.



The presence of co2 in your fermenting wine fouls up your pH readings. Take your readings, make adjustments, confirm your desired starting point before pitching your yeast. Check and adjust post fermentation in a CO2 free sample.


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## Johny99 (Aug 3, 2016)

WSU test book recommends boiling off the co2 first, microwave ok, before pH or TA testing. I've done it with finished ferments, didn't make much difference, but never active. I guess it should work.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 4, 2016)

Thanks John and John.

I'm sorry, I should have added that I adjusted before pitching the yeast. I'll let it go for now and check it again in a week or so. My first Dragon Blood ended up at 2.9 and it actually tastes pretty good. I didn't have my meter at that point and did NO adjusting at all. In the Jack Keller blog I mentioned earlier, he states he only tests about 1/2 of the wines he brews and mostly goes by taste. I have a LONG ways to go before getting that good!


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## Tnuscan (Aug 4, 2016)

Most wines that you make from frozen (packaged) fruit or juice from the supermarket, will not need adjustments like fresh picked berries or grapes will.

Most of those recipes will give you a trouble free nice wine by just following the instructions. That is unless you have tasted them and just want to dial them in to your personal taste.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 4, 2016)

Johny99 said:


> WSU test book recommends boiling off the co2 first, microwave ok, before pH or TA testing. I've done it with finished ferments, didn't make much difference, but never active. I guess it should work.



I would never submit a wine finished, in process, or otherwise to heating via Microwave, oven, or stove-top. Unless you talking just about the sample itself.

The heat is going to change the properties of the wine, not to mention you better know what will happen to the chemicals you've added when heated or hit with the intense microwaves.

And on the topic of testing - Very few folks on this board are working with wines that are going to be hurt or negatively impacted by a pH meter reading off by .05. That's why all the people posting on the various wine making support sites give ranges of acceptable or desired pH readings, TA, Starting SG etc. We aren't working in a lab we are working in our kitchens, basements etc and while our batches are our pride and joy but we know that there are some things beyond our control in the home 'winery.' If you truly know of wine varieties that cannot tolerate an error in the pH of .05 - please share with us that information. - There are a lot of beginners who don't want that headache and might just decide not to try wine making as a hobby if the tolerances are indeed so small.


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## wineforfun (Aug 4, 2016)

@drainsurgeon
Where did you see that Tropical DB didn't use any lemon or lime juice. I have made it in the past and always used one or the other, per instructions. Usually I use lime juice.


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## ibglowin (Aug 4, 2016)

He means the test sample....



Scooter68 said:


> I would never submit a wine finished, in process, or otherwise to heating via Microwave, oven, or stove-top. Unless you talking just about the sample itself.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 4, 2016)

wineforfun said:


> @drainsurgeon
> Where did you see that Tropical DB didn't use any lemon or lime juice. I have made it in the past and always used one or the other, per instructions. Usually I use lime juice.



My recipe was from winenoob66 called Tropical blend. There is also a Tropical Nectar that I copied from this site (didn't record from who) and both recipe's started with 2-48 oz cans of Pineapple juice. I used 6# peaches, 6# mangoes, 3# pineapples and 5 bananas. Haven't bottled yet so can't give final results. I think I got both recipes from the DB thread but that was over a month and several bottles of wine ago.


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## stickman (Aug 4, 2016)

Drainsurgeon, Just a quick comment about PH meter temperature correction. A typical meter with automatic temperature compensation, only corrects for the change in response of the probe at different temperatures. It does not correct for the change in PH of a solution at a different temperature. The same sample of wine will have a different PH at 55F vs. 70F.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 5, 2016)

Found a calculator to do the conversion if your meter does not adjust here is the difference for an uncorrected reading of pH pf 3.50:
3.50 at 60 = 3.59
3.50 at 65 = 3.57
3.50 at 75 = 3.51

Since I believe most of our fermentations occur between these temps (good luck starting a fermentation at 60f)

So it would appear that the variation is not insignificant but not earth shattering either: 

Site for calculator is: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/PhTempCorrection.php

All this matters most if your room temp varies significantly between your measurements. otherwise if the room temp is steady then tracking changes in pH is straightforward.


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## wineforfun (Aug 5, 2016)

drainsurgeon said:


> My recipe was from winenoob66 called Tropical blend. There is also a Tropical Nectar that I copied from this site (didn't record from who) and both recipe's started with 2-48 oz cans of Pineapple juice. I used 6# peaches, 6# mangoes, 3# pineapples and 5 bananas. Haven't bottled yet so can't give final results. I think I got both recipes from the DB thread but that was over a month and several bottles of wine ago.



I gotcha. Yeah, those were offtakes. Dave has always used lemon, lime or acid blend in the original recipes, that is why you through me off.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 5, 2016)

stickman said:


> Drainsurgeon, Just a quick comment about PH meter temperature correction. A typical meter with automatic temperature compensation, only corrects for the change in response of the probe at different temperatures. It does not correct for the change in PH of a solution at a different temperature. The same sample of wine will have a different PH at 55F vs. 70F.



I had to read this about 4 times before it made sense. I misunderstood the meaning of an "auto temp correcting"and thanks for clearing that up. I will find a chart for correcting for must temp but it sounds like the correcting is not real significant. Thanks.


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## drainsurgeon (Aug 5, 2016)

Scooter68 said:


> Found a calculator to do the conversion if your meter does not adjust here is the difference for an uncorrected reading of pH pf 3.50:
> 3.50 at 60 = 3.59
> 3.50 at 65 = 3.57
> 3.50 at 75 = 3.51
> ...



That calculator is for temp correction that my pH meter already does. I need the chart that gives information for change in temp that my meter does NOT compensate for. I think.

Also, my room temp (basement) is very constant in the summer. I am amazed how much a must temp increases during an active ferment however. My Tropical Blend went from 71 to 84 in 1 day! I thought I needed to wrap the primary (with towel) to help bring the temp up. I now keep a fan blowing on the primary (unwrapped) until it gets down to 1.0. My most recent batch of DB I was able to keep the must temp down with the fan. It went from 70 to 75 during the first week.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 5, 2016)

Yeah the fermentation process does generate some heat. As to the temp adjustment looking at the differences I wonder if the shift would be enough to worry about. After during fermentation a lot is happening and as you know the temp is going to rise considerably at first and then taper off. If a 15 degree change results in a .08 change in pH I don't think I'd worry much initially. Wait until fermentation is completed and temps normalize then start checking. I normally check pH at fermentation start, At shift to secondary vessels, and again at end of fermentation once the must has a good clear layer on top (before racking) After that if you have a marginal pH you can check at each racking and adjust then if needed. The extent of a shift during fermentation will depend a lot on the fruit/juice being used. A prepared canned or frozen juice should be much more stable than fresh juices for fruit. If your DB is all from juice unless you get some reaction started somewhere I don't think you're going to see a dramatic swing in pH. That's from what I keep reading all over the place on different sites and different users who have done this for years.

Unless you intend to drink in the 30-60 days you should have time to adjust the pH if it starts drifting too high or low. Never seen anyone (authoritative or well experienced source) say any given wine should have a specific pH or even be withing a pH range of .10 or less. Anyone have facts to disprove, we'd all like to see that.


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