# Simple newbie pruning question



## sremick (Mar 11, 2021)

Approaching year 3 of my vines. How time flies!

The weather seems to warrant doing pruning this weekend. One question that's been nagging me that I haven't seen clarified in any books or websites I've read.... I know the general guideline is to "prune anything thinner than a pencil", but does that mean:

A) Prune *the entire cane* (last year's growth) if the thickest part is thinner than a pencil, otherwise leave *the entire cane* if the thickest part got at least as thick as a pencil

OR:

B) Prune _*only the part*_ of the cane that is thinner than a pencil, *leaving the part* of last year's growth that got thicker.

Just want to ensure I'm going about this correctly. Although I'm probably overthinking this. But my vines are young enough that I don't want to prune too much at this stage. I did cut them all back down the ground (almost) last year (year 2). Only like 3 made it to the top cordon wire last year.


----------



## balatonwine (Mar 11, 2021)

sremick said:


> "prune anything thinner than a pencil"



If you are growing new vines, then I would cut back to two buds anything that did not reach the lower wire. And judge the health of those that did. I would not apply a simply "pencil" cookbook solution. But anything that looks "scragly" I would trim back. And I would not half cut a new vine based on thickness below the wire if I could avoid it. Doing that will result in a crooked stem. Best to get one strong stem from the base and keep that, not do it in stages. But that is just me.


----------



## VinesnBines (Mar 11, 2021)

Below are a couple pretty good articles on early vine pruning. Lat year, I did like you and cut my second year vines back to two buds.. This year I'm doing it differently on the new second year vines. 

So for my three year vines that were cut back to two buds last year, I'm going to cane prune and like you some don't have a lot of growth to choose from but those that do, I am choosing a cane that is about pencil thickness as a spur for next year and another pencil thickness as a fruiting cane and laying the fruiting cane on my lower wire. Some vines have two canes or arms on each side like this



Other vines have only one arm or no arms. For the vines that didn't get a lot of growth and my two year vines, I'm pruning like this so it looks like the second vine from the left. 


I'm cutting the dead off, back to green stems and leaving the vines pretty long because I am going to double prune to delay bud break. After I got into my vineyard and started, I was able to see what was best.

Look around at articles and look at your vines; repeat until it makes some sense. Your vines, like mine won't look exactly like the pictures but you will get the idea. You can over prune that reduces the crop but you can also under prune. Since you are in Vermont, I would go slow. The buds at the end of the cane will break first and you can cut that off and delay the rest for 10 days to two weeks.

What varieties? 






Pruning Grapes in Home Gardens: Some Basic Guidelines | Western Washington Tree Fruit & Alternative Fruits | Washington State University


J. King, WSU – Mount Vernon Starting Young Plants First Dormant Pruning Established Vines Shoot Training Arbors Handy Hints Standing in front of a mass of tangled grape vine and wondering what to do with…




extension.wsu.edu












Pruning Backyard Grapevines in the First Three Years


Grape gardeners often become confused as to what should be pruned off and when. Proper pruning will help maintain a grapevine’s potential of producing a good quality fruit crop, develop good vine structure, increase sunlight exposure into the canopy, promote the development of next year’s...




ohioline.osu.edu


----------



## VinesnBines (Mar 11, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> If you are growing new vines, then I would cut back to two buds anything that did not reach the lower wire. And judge the health of those that did. I would not apply a simply "pencil" cookbook solution. But anything that looks "scragly" I would trim back. But that is just me.


balatonwine has a video on pruning. Check it out. 

Anyway, each vine is an individual. I have some three year old that are needing more time and then I have a couple second years that might manage a cluster or two. The best thing to do is get out there, trim a bit, go back and look over the articles and videos, go back the next day and see if you want to trim more. This works for a few vines; not several acres though it did work for my 1.10 acres.


----------



## sremick (Mar 11, 2021)

I have mostly Marquette with some Petite Pearl. I'm doing dual-trunks (well, trying to). Some did really well last year spreading out on the top wire a little bit, while others hardly got a couple feet up. Maybe variations in the ground in spots, maybe just variations with individual vines being slow-starters and taking longer to establish good roots. I'm not trying to get fruit yet, still trying to establish and train the vines.

I'll do some reading re: the resources provided above, but now I'm feeling less-confident about what pruning to do. Heh.


----------



## VinesnBines (Mar 11, 2021)

sremick said:


> I'll do some reading re: the resources provided above, but now I'm feeling less-confident about what pruning to do. Heh.



That is normal. You should panic, go to bed and sleep on it and then give it another go. If you don't want fruit this year, you can be more aggressive. I'm trying to do dual trunks too, some have two trunks and others don't. You'll figure it out. I finally did after panicking several times.


----------



## srcorndog (Mar 11, 2021)

I would reply to Fritz Westover he is a vineyard consult that has a pay web site and he also helps paying customers by phone his info is very good very nice and very smart I would advise you to contact him.
*





Fritz Westover*
Viticulturist
Westover Vineyard Advising
[email protected]


----------



## sremick (Mar 11, 2021)

srcorndog said:


> I would reply to Fritz Westover he is a vineyard consult that has a pay web site and he also helps paying customers by phone his info is very good very nice and very smart I would advise you to contact him.



Thanks, that's a cool idea and service. Unfortunately $390/year is a bit outside of my budget for this. It's just a hobby with fewer than 50 vines.


----------



## montanarick (Mar 12, 2021)

sremick said:


> I have mostly Marquette with some Petite Pearl. I'm doing dual-trunks (well, trying to). Some did really well last year spreading out on the top wire a little bit, while others hardly got a couple feet up. Maybe variations in the ground in spots, maybe just variations with individual vines being slow-starters and taking longer to establish good roots. I'm not trying to get fruit yet, still trying to establish and train the vines.
> 
> I'll do some reading re: the resources provided above, but now I'm feeling less-confident about what pruning to do. Heh.


Marquette are very prolific growers and should have good growth every year. Petite Pearl not so much - takes a lot (at least that I've found here in Montana) to establish themselves.


----------



## montanarick (Mar 12, 2021)

Fritz's Virtual Viticulture Academy has some free stuff including webinars that can also be very helpful


----------



## balatonwine (Mar 12, 2021)

sremick said:


> Thanks, that's a cool idea and service. Unfortunately $390/year is a bit outside of my budget for this. It's just a hobby with fewer than 50 vines.



Feel free to continue here, but you do need to provide more details and information.

For example, it was not clear at first that you were dealing with newer growth. So maybe post some photos or video to clarify your issues.

Better to keep it here, so all can learn. And without cost.

As already mentioned by another, i have trimming videos examples online for free. But they may not deal with your exact issues. But if we know your specific issues, I and others may be able to help.


----------



## sremick (Mar 13, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> If you are growing new vines, then I would cut back to two buds anything that did not reach the lower wire. And judge the health of those that did. I would not apply a simply "pencil" cookbook solution. But anything that looks "scragly" I would trim back. And I would not half cut a new vine based on thickness below the wire if I could avoid it. Doing that will result in a crooked stem. Best to get one strong stem from the base and keep that, not do it in stages. But that is just me.



Sorry to be dense, but I'm confused by what you said a bit. You say "cut back to two buds anything that did not reach the lower wire." Conversely, that means to leave anything that _did_ make the lower wire, to continue from there to work its way up to the top wire. Wouldn't that then also result in a "crooked stem" that is being done "in stages" and not "one strong stem from the base"? Unless I'm misinterpreting you.

Instead of being selective, I just went and took photos of each fine. Lighting isn't great on half... it was either that or take from the other direction which became visually messy as it overlapped the other row. I don't expect feedback on all of them, but figured I'd let you folks pick the ones that best represent good educational opportunities:








Grapevines 2021 - before dormant pruning


42 new items added to shared album




photos.app.goo.gl





As you see, only a few made it to the top wire... most photos only show the bottom wire. And some look downright pathetic now, but truly all were alive last year, even those a bunch only grew a little bit.


----------



## BigH (Mar 23, 2021)

sremick said:


> Approaching year 3 of my vines. ...I know the general guideline is to "prune anything thinner than a pencil", but does that mean:
> 
> A) Prune *the entire cane* (last year's growth) if the thickest part is thinner than a pencil, otherwise leave *the entire cane* if the thickest part got at least as thick as a pencil
> 
> ...



B. I haven't seen anyone answer the question, but if you are following this advice, you are cutting back to healthy wood that is at least a pencil thick.

Now obviously, you don't keep all wood that is pencil thick, but I think you are well beyond that.

H


----------



## sremick (Mar 24, 2021)

BigH said:


> if you are following this advice, you are cutting back to healthy wood that is at least a pencil thick.


Thanks for trying to distill and answer. I'm struggling with the conflicting advice, particularly what balatonwine also said.

One thing I feel ok about is this: "anything that didn't reach the first/lower wire, cut it down to 2 buds above the ground". Basically what I did last year for everything.

My first take on what you said would be confidence that it'd apply to another situation: vines that reached the top wire and started going horizontal. Cut those back to the point where it's thicker than a pencil, up to the point where the vine touched the top wire. That's only a small number of my vines, unfortunately.

But what about the vines that were not pencil-thick when they got to the top wire, or didn't reach the top wire (but got past the lower wire)? This is the majority of my vines. Prune them to the point that they're pencil-thick, so that this season the go from there to reach the top wire (making the vertical trunk having grown in two stages/seasons), or cut them all the way back to 2 buds above ground, to hope they grow their vertical trunk this season all in one go and that it gets thick enough this time (which seems to be what balatonwine advises).

I guess one could group pruning questions into 4 categories. If you excuse my poor art skills:


----------



## montanarick (Mar 24, 2021)

here's my two cents assuming you are looking to get single trunk:
A- cut to two buds or maybe three then cut out least vigorous growing shoots after about 12" long
B- Pretty much same thing - cutting off at +pencil thickness and removing all lower buds
C- Same treatment as B
D- leave two buds that are pencil thick and let both grow this year. you may want to let opposite facing bud below top wire also grow to establish bilateral cordon (assuming that's waht you want to do). next year leave closest shoot as renewal spur cutting back to two buds and cut new cordon at about 15-18" do the same following year until cordon reaches length you desire. hope this helps but if you need further clarification feel free to contact me.


----------



## sremick (Mar 25, 2021)

montanarick said:


> here's my two cents assuming you are looking to get single trunk


I'm actually looking to do dual-trunk, each with its own single cordon. Basically this:


It's the popular method in my area, presumably for better backup should something happen to one trunk. Given that, how does that change your advice?


----------



## montanarick (Mar 25, 2021)

I'd just let the two most vigorous buds grow and remove any others except id (D) let one bud from below wire grow out in opposite direction giving it a start as second bilateral cordon. then next season you can decide what to keep as you go forward. thing is you'll always want to keep the healthiest and most vigorous shoot(s) as a start. don't let cordon growth each season be more than 15-18" after pruning - be patient and you'll be happier in the long run. good luck


----------



## BigH (Mar 26, 2021)

sremick said:


> But what about the vines that were not pencil-thick when they got to the top wire, or didn't reach the top wire (but got past the lower wire)? This is the majority of my vines. Prune them to the point that they're pencil-thick, so that this season the go from there to reach the top wire (making the vertical trunk having grown in two stages/seasons), or cut them all the way back to 2 buds above ground



Here is my advice. If a vine's trunk has good internode distances, is mostly straight, looks healthy, and made it 2/3 of the way to the top wire with pencil thick wood, then you can resume growth from the last qualifying bud. Try to reach the top wire and grow a short cordon this year. You need to prune out suckers and water sprouts below the buds you want to grow or they will zap energy from your future. 

Weaklings with short internode distances should probably be pruned back to the ground.

For tweeners, you should lean towards pruning back to the ground, but you could let them try and resume growing one trunk, while cutting the less favorable one way back.

Bull canes present their own problems. You don't want to keep them, but if you prune them back to the ground, you are just likely to get more bull canes for trunks, unless you manage summer growth differently.

A lot of growers face your these same decisions going into year 2. In that year, my preference is to favor pruning back to 2 buds above the ground, unless a vine really impressed. You are going into year 3 though. If you pruned back to the ground the prior two seasons, you should have the root mass needed to push on to the fruiting wire.

Good luck.
H


----------



## balatonwine (Mar 26, 2021)

sremick said:


> Sorry to be dense, but I'm confused by what you said a bit. You say "cut back to two buds anything that did not reach the lower wire."



I grow vinifera. Not hybrids. And not North American vines. For vinifera the lowest wire is the "top wire" for the main stem (normally about 80 cm-ish from the ground). They grow vertical. Example photos since provided are for non-vinifera vines that grow from a high top wire, rather than a "bottom wire". Different grapes. Different growing methods. All grapes do not grow the same.

But still... If the vines did not reach your "Top Wire" (however you define it), I would still cut them back a lot and let them try to reach your "Top Wire" in one season. If not, cut them back again.

My humble opinion.

*Do note, *I replied to your original post. Since then you have provided more info about what vines you grow. *Ergo: lesson* ... to the best and most relevant replies, start with the most detailed info in your original question. Including some basics, as what vines you are growing. If I knew you grew NA vines, I probably would not have replied as I did, and you would not have been confused. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## JoP (Mar 28, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> I grow vinifera. Not hybrids. And not North American vines. For vinifera the lowest wire is the "top wire" for the main stem (normally about 80 cm-ish from the ground). They grow vertical. Example photos since provided are for non-vinifera vines that grow from a high top wire, rather than a "bottom wire". Different grapes. Different growing methods. All grapes do not grow the same.
> 
> But still... If the vines did not reach your "Top Wire" (however you define it), I would still cut them back a lot and let them try to reach your "Top Wire" in one season. If not, cut them back again.
> 
> ...





balatonwine said:


> I grow vinifera. Not hybrids. And not North American vines. For vinifera the lowest wire is the "top wire" for the main stem (normally about 80 cm-ish from the ground). They grow vertical. Example photos since provided are for non-vinifera vines that grow from a high top wire, rather than a "bottom wire". Different grapes. Different growing methods. All grapes do not grow the same.
> 
> But still... If the vines did not reach your "Top Wire" (however you define it), I would still cut them back a lot and let them try to reach your "Top Wire" in one season. If not, cut them back again.
> 
> ...


I'm also starting to grow a small vineyard in my backyard and all this information is very useful to me, thank you for the good postings on this subject.
One thing I did not see anyone talking about is if there is any need for fertilization in the first three years of training.
If yes, what to use and how often?
Thanks


----------



## VinesnBines (Mar 28, 2021)

If your soil is reasonably balanced, you should not fertilize young vines. You want to build a good root system and that means the vines need to work at finding nutrients. Fertilizer will encourage foliage growth. Although you want foliage growth you want roots more. If your foliage shows signs of nutrient deficiency, then you add that; an example is magnesium deficiency - the foliage will be yellow around the edges of the leaves. Then you only add magnesium.


----------



## JoP (Apr 20, 2021)

Thanks for the feedback
What about newly planted young vines when growth is not uniform?
Some are half the size of others in the same soil next to each other.
Is there anything I can do to equalize growth rate?
Thanks


----------

