# Muscadine wine



## dloftus (Jan 18, 2007)

I have found recipes on the internet for muscadine wine, but they are for wild muscadines. I'm growing the Ison (a dark muscadine) in a cultivated vineyard as my cross pollinator. This particular grapes runs about 18% sugar and are well fertilized and watered. How does this change the recipe?

The other variety I'm growing is the Supreme (also from Ison nursery) and is a fresh fruit grape. They are not well suited to wine production because they are not very color fast and the wine will turn brown.

Here's two folders of photos of the vineyard.

http://www.pbase.com/dloftus/vineyard
http://www.pbase.com/dloftus/vineyard_year_3

I have made beer before and did a few wines from concentrate, but that was 25 years ago, so I consider myself a 'newbie' Thanks for any help you can offer


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## smurfe (Jan 18, 2007)

You crush and press your grapes and obtain an SG. You then add sugar dissolved in water to increase your SG to the level you need, normally above 1.090 You will have to deal with the acidity as well. Many of the recipes you see will be basically the same regardless if it is a wild grape or a hybrid. You basically treat them both the same as you will need to add sugar and adjust acidity determined by the brix and acidity of the grapes at hand.

Smurfe


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## Sacalait (Jan 19, 2007)

WOW!! That is some setup. How many vines do you have and what do you plan on doing with all the fruit? I have 29 vines and only use a small portion of the fruit for wine, the rest I sell for fresh eating.

I hope you fare better than me on the supreme variety, I had 6 and removed them because I was dissatisfied with the flavor. To me, they were sweet but lacked flavor. I've replaced them with black beauty and I'm much more satisfied. In my opinion, black beauty, ison and sugar gate are my the best cultivated varities for wine.


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## smurfe (Jan 19, 2007)

Muscadine, how many vines would I need for lets say a couple 6 gallon batches a year? Also, do you have any problems with birds eating your fruits?

Smurfe


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## dloftus (Jan 19, 2007)

Thanks for the input on the wine technique. As for my vineyard, I have 14 rows and each one has 21 vines, which comes to 294 vines. Then I will do the same thing again with two golden varieties. Right now I’m looking at Pam and Granny Val.

You have a point about the Supreme. I have noticed that some are very flavorful and some are not. I’m hoping it has to do with fertilization and watering. We had a very dry year and did a LOT of irrigating so I’m wondering if that was a problem. The reason I went with the Supreme is that, according to Ison’s, they are very large, very sweet and thin skin for eating. My main market will be for fresh fruit and will try local grocers and roadside stands. 

Once again according to Ison’s, my yield should be about 50-60 pounds per vine for the Supreme and 70-90 pounds per vine for the Ison (a more traditional muscadine grape). These yields are for mature vines, five years old and older. This past season, my oldest vines were just three years old. I think I have about 100 pounds of the Ison to try and make some wine and jelly from. I also processed some of the Supreme grapes into juice and will try jelly from them also. 

I have Ison’s book on Muscadine grapes, access to information on the internet, my county Ag agent, and the Ag department here at the University of Florida. I’m still in the learning curve and sometimes I look out over the vines and say, “What the heck am I doing???” Then I just put my head down and go back to picking weeds, spraying or what ever needs to be done that weekend. I will have to say, it is a challenge starting the vineyard and having a day job. There is just not enough hours in the day sometimes. But … you know … I enjoy it. I’m really looking forward to retiring in about 4 years because it will take the pressure off doing the vineyard.

Gee, that was long winded.


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## Sacalait (Jan 19, 2007)

Smurfe, 3 five yr old vines would likely provide an adequet amount of fruit for 12gals. You should shoot for 5-6lbs of fruit/gal of wine. Any more than that and you'll be running into an acid problem.

dloftus, first of all I'm not an expert. I planted my vines in 1999 and have made adjustments along the line. I also have read Ison's book a number of times and have learned much from it. I've found that the favorite or most requested variety is the darlene for fresh fruit and after that is the black beauty. The bigger and sweeter the fruit the better.

As for soil type and the supreme...I had filter press (residual matter from a sugar mill) hauled in (maybe 3 ins) and I planted in this stuff. I know this sounds strange but it works. Afterwards I had a soil test done and it showed the soil was optimum or off the scale on all components except nitrogen. Anyway, after adding the nitrogen and having the optimum soil I still didn't like the supreme. However, everything else benefited from it.

It takes me about 4hrs every 3 days to pick my crop of 29 vines so tell me your plan on how you're going to pick 294.

I've rambled a lot, let me know if I can help.


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## dloftus (Jan 22, 2007)

Muscadine,

Sounds like you have been doing your research! What did your PH finally settle at? I had to add dolomite last year because I was a bit low at 5.5 to 5.8 so I’m trying to bring it up to about 6.5. I understand that will help make the grapes sweeter. I was told to wait until the end of Feb. or beginning of March to see how much the PH has changed and if I need more.

As for the flavor, it may have to do with each vine’s genetic makeup and I’ll have to monitor it. But, of course, it’s a bit late to change varieties now!

The other half of the vineyard will be two varieties of golden muscadine and I’m looking at Pam and Granny Val. Do you have any thoughts on these? Is there a nursery other than Ison’s producing good varieties of muscadines?

As for picking, my plan is to make some catch frames that will go under the trellis and then I’ll gently whack the vines with a Nerf rod and knock the ripe fruit loose. I think using three frames and playing leap frog along the trellis will keep fruit ahead of me from falling to the ground. I’m also going to make a cold storage room so I can hold the grapes for a few days while I get enough together to make a trip to the market. I understand it is vital to get the grapes cold as soon as possible after picking to help maintain sweetness.


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## smurfe (Jan 22, 2007)

Muscadine, you have had good luck with the Sugargate variety? I looked in an Ison's catalog and it says not recommended in the Gulf Coast area. I don't know if they mean right on the coast but we are close enough. I value your input. Also, what are you using as pollinators for the female varieties? The Ison?

Smurfe


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## Sacalait (Jan 23, 2007)

dloftus, 
Calcium ppm 2338 
Magnesium ppm 490
PH 6.7
Phosphorus ppm 915
Potassium ppm 300
Sodium ppm 68

These values were from a soil test taken in 2002 and after the filter press was added, I haven't retested since. I think you can see from these figures why I'm hooked on filter press.

My gold varities are Pam, Florida fry, Dixieland, Pineapple and Darlene. Of these, I'd say Darlene and Pam are the standouts, Florida fry and Dixieland I wouldn't plant again.

It takes me 2-3 days to prune my vines but I do them one at a time and by hand. Are you going to employ a mechanical pruner?

smurfe, sugar gate is one of my favorites. They ripen about a week ahead of the others and are very sweet.
Ison is the prime pollinator for me and a good producer. All you need is one of these if you have the space available.


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## dloftus (Jan 23, 2007)

Muscadine, 

Your PH is right on. I’ll have to check my soil tests and I’ll get back to you on the numbers I have. I'm at work, the data sheets are at home.

Since you have had good luck with the Darlene, maybe I’ll try that instead of the Granny Val. I’ll take a closer look at Ison’s catalog. Do you get your vines from Ison’s also? So far, because of the Supreme, they are the only name I’ve seen mentioned.

I do all the pruning myself by hand, and since my vines are young, hand pruning was not difficult. As the vines get older, I can see using a gas powered hedge trimmer to do the rough prune and finish by hand. Depending on how much time it takes me, I may have the youth from our church come out and help and then make a donation to the youth fund for the hours they help out. Kind of a win-win situation.

You mentioned the filter press. Until now, I haven’t heard of one. How is it being used in the vineyard? Is it taking minerals out of the water or just particulate matter? Right now, I’m just using the well water as it comes out of the ground. Because I’m using microjets, I don’t even use an inline filter to remove particles. The tips are large enough they don’t clog.


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## Sacalait (Jan 23, 2007)

If you take a look at Ison's catalog you'll see that Darlene is close to the top as far as size and sugar content. I've had folks ask for those specifically, they're that good.

Filter press is a by product from a sugar mill. There are misters in the smoke stack that keep most of the smoke from going into the atmosphere. You now have a water carbon mixture and that is mixed with the particles thrown off when the cane is crushed and are then gathered in the filtering process...hence filter press. It's a very fine black substance that'll make a mess on your clothes and hands but once the grass grows over it then it's contained. Many of the gardeners around here try to get it cause it really enhances the soil. If there are any sugar mills in your vacinity you should look into it.

Ison's holds the patent on many of the top varities, so yes that's where I generally get mine.


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## smurfe (Jan 23, 2007)

Muscadine said:


> If you take a look at Ison's catalog you'll see that Darlene is close to the top as far as size and sugar content. I've had folks ask for those specifically, they're that good.
> 
> Filter press is a by product from a sugar mill. There are misters in the smoke stack that keep most of the smoke from going into the atmosphere. You now have a water carbon mixture and that is mixed with the particles thrown off when the cane is crushed and are then gathered in the filtering process...hence filter press. It's a very fine black substance that'll make a mess on your clothes and hands but once the grass grows over it then it's contained. Many of the gardeners around here try to get it cause it really enhances the soil. If there are any sugar mills in your vacinity you should look into it.
> 
> Ison's holds the patent on many of the top varities, so yes that's where I generally get mine.



Do you have to go to the mills to get the sugar press yourself or do they deliver it? I don't really know where the closest operating mill is to me. I live on the east side of the river. I remember when I worked in Donaldsonville there were a few around there though. That was around 8 years ago though. I will have to check this out. You probably can't haul it is the back of a pick-up can you?

Smurfe


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## Sacalait (Jan 23, 2007)

smurfe,
I had it hauled in by dump truck (23 loads) at about $45/load. If there is a mill near you they can tell you how to get it. It's actually somthing they have to get rid of but now that more people are finding out about the benefits of the stuff I wouldn't be surprised if they started selling it. The load price was only for the hauling, the mill gives it away.


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## dloftus (Jan 24, 2007)

Muscadine,
I checked Ison’s catalog and it looks like I need to plant Pam and/or Darlene since they are both female vines. I’ll use the Granny Val as the self-fertile variety. What differences do you find between Pam and Darlene? Ison’s recommended Pam for my area, but I’m not sure why.

I found my soil test results for the area I will plant this year. I took samples from the north end, central and southern end of the vineyard and I’m averaging them together below:

Calcium (ppm) – 295 – high/very high
Magnesium (ppm) – 53 - high
PH – 5.5 A-E buffer value of 7.25
Phosphorus (ppm) – 167 – very high, actually exceeds working range of test procedure.
Potassium (ppm) – 102 - high
I have no reading for Sodium

My test was done at the University of Florida Soil Testing Laboratory and the report says “Mehlich-1 Extractable”, I’m guessing this is the type of procedure they use. The “high” or “very high” is what they listed in a chart next to the results. 

I have a soil test that I did two years earlier on the first three rows I planted and the results were all lower, but the PH was the same. I don’t know if there was a difference in test procedure or how I did my samples (I did take my sample much lower in the ground, about 18 inches vs. 5 inches for the test above). I’m going to do another soil test in about a month or so since I want to give the dolomite as long as possible to be absorbed into the soil. It was put down in late May of 2006. 

Well, my results are very different from yours. What test did they use? Could there be a decimal point missing? It seems our results get much closer if you add a decimal point just before the last digit.

Thanks for the info on the filter press. Now I understand what you mean. There are sugar mills in Florida, but they are in the southern part of the state and I’m up by Gainesville (north central) about 275-300 miles distance. That’s a bit of a long haul!


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## Sacalait (Feb 6, 2007)

OK folks, I'm back new computer and all!

dloftus, from the figures you listed it appears you're right on target. Good luck with your vinyard.


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## dloftus (Feb 8, 2007)

Muscadine,

Glad your back on line and congrats on the new computer. I have been working on the vineyard when ever I get a chance. I used a self powered roto tiller to go up and down the rows I haven’t planted yet to help turn in the weeds and have started cleaning up the row that got hit by lightning. There is always something to do. Take care.


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## dloftus (Nov 28, 2008)

*Back again*

Well, it has been a long time since I have been on this forum, but things have been busy. The vineyard is like having a second job. The rest of the vines are now planted so the vineyard is complete (except for a few that have died and need to be replanted, about 30 vines). 

Starting last year, we opened up as a U-Pick operation. I just don’t have the time to do all the picking and my thoughts of using catch frames and shaking the vine does not work for fresh fruit. The grapes must be picked by hand if they are going to be sold as fresh fruit. My wife and I did do some picking for sale at local grocery stores but U-pick is the most economical way to go and it has worked out very well.

This year I finally decided to make it a priority to brew some wine. I had about 90 pounds of Ison variety muscadines frozen and today ran them all through a hand crank ice crusher. You know, the kind where you put in ice cubes and make crushed ice. The device is about 40 years old but it worked fine on breaking up the grapes without making too much of a mess. It did take several hours however. I now have about 11 gallons of crushed grapes and will add Camden tablets tomorrow. Right now the containers are still very cold and will let them warm up overnight.

My question is, can wine be made directly from this juice? The acid will be high (I don’t have a test kit, so I don’t know how high it is) but will it affect the yeast? Once the juice sets overnight I’ll try to get a hydrometer reading.

Don Loftus
Gainesville, Florida


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## Sacalait (Nov 29, 2008)

Making the wine from pure juice is something I haven't yet tried. However, I made a 5gal batch using 55lbs muscadines (mixed varieties) and only 1gal of water that turned out very well. After the wine had been racked for the last time I moved it to a spare refrigerator for 2 1/2 months in an attempt to get the tartaric acid to fall out (cal. carbonate had not been added). The acid didn't fall out as anticipated but was still very good, not too acidic. Using more fruit than the recipe calls for does produce a more flavorful wine IMO. 

I also am starting a batch today. Good luck and keep us informed. 




Sacalait (Used to be muscadine)


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## dloftus (Nov 30, 2008)

*Checked SG*

I checked the specific gravity this afternoon and it's 1.060 but I did not filter the juice, just took it right from the primary fermenter, but I don't know if that effects the SG very much. I will need to add sugar to get the SG higher and was thinking of going to 1.100 to 1.200 and will aim for a semi sweet wine. As I understand it, one pound of sugar per 5 gal. will raise the SG 0.010 ... is that right? Since I have about 10-11 gal. of must, I would need about 8 pounds of sugar to raise it to 1.100. When I add the sugar should I also add Campden tablets again ... along with the yeast nutrients to eliminate the chance of contamination? Sacalait, did you add sugar to your 55 lbs of muscadines?


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## dloftus (Nov 30, 2008)

*Oops*

In reading over my previous post, the target SG would be 1.100 to 1.120 ... not 1.200. Sorry about that!


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## Sacalait (Nov 30, 2008)

I added 5lbs which brought the SG to 1.090. I usually shoot for an alc. content of 11-12%. It seems to take longer to settle down (smooth out) the higher the alc. content is. 
Your juice is right on with a 1.060sg., the last time I tested mine it was 1.062.

In a pure juice environment you may have difficulty dissolving the sugar. I'd suggest making a simple syrup solution and adding this to the mix. 
Your calculations on raising the SG look about right but I'm not looking at a chart. 
If you added camden initially it isn't necessary to add anymore at this point. The next addition should be at the second racking and every other one after that. 

With all that juice you may want to reserve 3/4gal to use as a sweetener and flavor enhancer once the wine is finished.


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## dloftus (Dec 5, 2008)

*Update*

I have added five pounds of sugar, mixed with about a quart of water, to the must and have raised the SG to 1.079, so I'm ready to start making wine. But now the problem is the must is too cold. The temp. of the must was 59 degrees, but it is suppose to warm up for the weekend and I may even put it outside for a while. Now the question is how to keep the must warm while it is brewing? Has anybody made a must heater to keep it at about 70 degrees? I'm thinking about making a string of resisters, kept inside a plastic sleeve, then wrapped around the carboy several times and attached to a power supply. We do something like this to our telescopes to keep the dew off, but I would need a bit more heat to keep the wine warm. Any ideas?

Don Loftus


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## Sacalait (Dec 5, 2008)

I've used a heating pad but it takes a loooong time. In electric blanket would work better I think. Also, you could set it inside an ice chest to insulate it.


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## dloftus (Dec 5, 2008)

*Heating the must*

Looking through the forum and came up with this solution: https://webtrolley.com/~bader/store/product.php?productid=21821&cat=336&page=1

The electric blanket sounds good too, since I already have one. I'm going to work on it this weekend so I can get the yeast going. Thanks for the input.

Don Loftus


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## dloftus (Dec 5, 2008)

*Not good!*

I got home today and checked the must to see what the temperature was - 60 degrees, so still too cold. BUT, I also noticed bubbles on the surface and a bit of an oder coming off the must. I think it has started fermentation from the wild yeast. Even though I added one Campden table per gallon, that was last Saturday (6 day ago). On Tuesday I added the sugar, pectic enzyme and yeast nutrient but thought the Campden would protect the must. Opps, guessed wrong. The SG is 1.076, only down .003.

Well, the oder is not like old tennis shoes or anything, so I think it is the yeast that was on the grapes when crushed and survived the first Campden attack. So, I made up another batch of water (6 oz.) with 11 Campden tablets dissolved in it (putting the tablets in a small jar that fits on the blender blades works great) and put 2 oz in each container. It has been stirred well and recovered. 

My wife found an electric blanket, which is now around the three primary fermenters. We are monitoring the temperature of the container surface and tomorrow I will put in the yeast. I think everything is OK.


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## Sacalait (Dec 5, 2008)

Well, good luck but the extra addition of camden will not stop what has already started. Add the yeast that you had planned on and it will likely continue fermenting when the wild one has been killed off by the alcohol. Anyway that would be my plan of attack. 60F is not a bad fermentation temp., it just means that it will take longer than you planed and the fruit contact time will be better.

Just out of curiosity, why did you wait 6 days before pitching the yeast?


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## dloftus (Dec 5, 2008)

Sacalait,
I waited because ... I don't know what I'm doing!!  This is the first time I'm making wine from fruit. The last time was from a kit and that was 30 years ago. I have been trying to figure out what goes where and when and how much and then the must has been cold. I'm not working from a recipe, just from what I read here, on the internet and what I remember from making beer (and that batch of wine from long ago). 

The electric blanket seems to helping with the temp. of the must and tomorrow afternoon I'll put in the yeast. I'm taking notes and the next batch will go smoother. Next year I won't wait for cold weather either ... although, it might be easier to warm the must than to keep it cool. Hmmm, I'll have to think on that for a bit. All in all, this first batch is a learning experience. Who knows, I might be making 10 gal. of vinegar!

I really want to thank you for your input. It is very much appreciated.

Don Loftus


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## dloftus (Dec 6, 2008)

*Update*

It's Saturday night, over 24 hours since I added the additional Campden tablets, so it is time to add the yeast. When I opened the primary fermenters, the wild yeast was still working, but I did not detect any off oder so I don't think any bacteria is growing. Sacalait was right that the Campden would not kill the wild yeast ... good call.

Temperature was up to 70-72 degrees, thanks to the electric blanket so I sprinkled one each of the yeast packets onto the must. I used Red Star Montrachet (had 2) and one Lalvin Ki-V1116, then used a large stainless spoon to gently push it down into the mist a little to get it wet. I did not do the "yeast starter" approach on the recommendation of the store where I get my supplies. They said they have never had a yeast not start when just sprinkled on top of the must. The containers have been covered with a sheet of plastic and rewrapped with the electric blanket. I'll check it in the morning and stir the cap down.


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## dloftus (Dec 9, 2008)

*Another update*

I checked the must on Monday night and everything seems to be going well. Temperature of the must is running about 74-75 degrees and is only covered with the electric blanket, power is off. The fermentation is providing all the heat. Specific gravity is at 1.042 and it smells good, no off odors. I try to stir the must three times a day to keep the fruit in contact with the juice. I think everything is going well.


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## Sacalait (Dec 9, 2008)

Sounds good. 
Today I transferred a 3gal and a 5gal batch of muscadine to the secondary then I combined the pulp and hulls from the two batches and added a half gallon of blackberry puree. The batch size will end up being 3gal as I didn't want to dilute what ever was left in the muscadines. I've never done this before so it will be a learning experience.


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## dloftus (Dec 11, 2008)

*A bit of a surprise*

We had a very interesting time last night. When I went to stir the must in after getting home from work, I also checked the specific gravity and it was down to 1.002! Dang, didn’t expect it to go so low so fast. I was expecting it to be about 1.025 or so. The 75 degree temperature may have made the fermentation go faster. 

So, after getting back from church, my wife and I started transferring to the secondary fermenter. What a job, what a mess … constantly trying to sterilize everything … stainless steel pans, glass carboys and plastic buckets all over the place as we tried to separate the juice from the grapes pulp. Finally we had about 7 gallons of pure grape juice in two carboys. We transferred the must back and forth to mix the two batches and then transferred to make both carboys even.

We put the grape pulp equally in two buckets and added a little over one gallon of water to each one. We let that sit a bit to extract more juice. We drained that juice (two gallons) into a large pot and added enough sugar (about 8 cups) to bring the SG up to 1.080. This was added to the secondary fermenters in equal portions, which bought the level in the carboy to just past where the jug bends over toward the neck. Specific gravity of the carboys is now up to 1.010 and 1.012, about where it should have been when transferring from the primary fermenter to the secondary. 

I used a cheesecloth to wring out the rest of the juice from the pulp and put that juice in the refrigerator to keep it from fermenting. We will use this to top up rather than just plain water. SG of this juice is 1.000 so it should not affect the fermentation when added and will help to keep the wine from getting watered down.

By the time we finished and got cleaned up, it was almost 3:00 in the morning. Needless to say, I’m a bit tired at work today, but feel good that the wine is in the secondary and bubbling along nicely. Now I will let it set until SG is about .995 or .990 and then rack it. Should I add Campden at that point and, if so, how much? After all this work, I sure hope I like the way it turns out. 

Scalait, sounds like a very interesting wine you are making. I hope it goes well and smoother than my evening.


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## Sacalait (Dec 11, 2008)

Add one crushed camden tablet/gal. of wine after racking. 
When working with fruit rather than a kit the amount of work and time involved in the making process increases drastically but nonetheless I continue to do it. For me it's difficult to turn to kits when I've got the ingredients and time to go this route.
If you put the fruit in a paint straining bag from the outset it will decrease the amount of work on the back end.


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## dloftus (Dec 11, 2008)

Sacalait, does the sulfite from the Camden build up in the wine? That’s my only concern on adding so much. Do I need to do it each time I rack or every other time?

I now know what you mean about doing fresh fruit vs. the kit, with as many grapes as I have, I just wouldn’t feel right doing a kit. Besides, you get to experiment more, like you are doing now. 

This first time is really a learning experience and I’m looking at what I will add to my inventory to make things easier next time. The net bag for the grape skins and pulp was shown in the video tape, but I did not realize how much pulp I would have. After getting the juice out I would say the ratio is 1 to 2 by volume (1 bucket of pulp, 2 buckets of juice). That is a lot of pulp and the video didn’t show nearly as much, but I think they were using a different recipe where they added less fruit and more water.

Thanks for your help.


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## Sacalait (Dec 11, 2008)

The sulfite dissipates with time and is added every other racking. If you are concerned by the sulfite there are sulfite testers available. Personally, I don't have one and don't feel the necessity for one as it has never presented a problem for me. The main concern is not having enough in the wine as this is what protects it from oxidation.


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## dloftus (Dec 11, 2008)

Sacalait, thanks for the Campden info. I'll add some the next time I rack the wine. I just checked the carboys when I got home and they are doing fine. A nice steady bubbling from the air lock and no wild foaming. I will probably top up the carboy tonight to reduce the surface area exposed to the air. I left it low last night because I was not sure how much action the additional sugar was going to provide and didn't want it foaming up through the air lock.


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## Wade E (Dec 11, 2008)

If it is still fermenting then you dont want to add any campden and dont need to top up until it is done fermenting as C02 is displacing all 02.


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## dloftus (Dec 12, 2008)

Wade, you are probably right about the oxygen contamination being displaced by the CO2, but I already topped up the carboys when I read your message. As of this morning, they are both bubbling well without foam. Temperature of the must is down from when it was in the primary fermenter due to lower activity. It is about 70 degrees and, if it gets too much lower, I'll use the electric blanket again. Thanks for your input.


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## Wade E (Dec 12, 2008)

Muscadine is a good wine to ferment at cooler temps to keep the esters from burning out. Check the yeast strain for temp exceptables though. Lalvin EC 1118 and Red Star Premier Cuvee are good all the way down to 45* but I would not go beyond 60* i like to ferment my whites and fruit wines at cooler temps.


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## Sacalait (Dec 12, 2008)

Do muscadines grow in your local...I would have thought it was too cold there.


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## Wade E (Dec 12, 2008)

No they do not but have read a bit about them and quite a few of people make wine with them on another forum that I moderate.


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## dloftus (Dec 14, 2008)

Wade, the must temperature is running right around 66 degrees right now and I was going to put the elec. blanket back on to bring it back up to about 75, but now I'll hold off. Fermentation is slowing down just a bit and I thought it was because of the temperature, but it could also be that the sugar content is going down. It is bubbling right along so I will leave well enough alone. I'll check the SG sometime next week and rack to clean carboys.


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## Wade E (Dec 14, 2008)

It could be both as cooler temps will slow down the fermentation which is good for any white or fruit wine that you are trying to extract the flavor from. Red wines beneit from warnmer temps.


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## dloftus (Dec 16, 2008)

I checked the carboys last night and one is at .994 and the other at .996. Since I'm below 1.000 I think I should rack the wine into clean carboys and get rid of the sediment. I'll also add one Campden tablet per gallon to reduce oxidation. Would this also be a good time to and the oak chips? Should I soak them in a Campden solution to sterilize them? Right now the wine is bubbling along very nicely.


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## Sacalait (Dec 16, 2008)

Sounds like you've got it all together, rack, sulfite and add oak chips and camden. I've never added oak to muscadine wine...maybe I'll try it next time.


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## dloftus (Dec 16, 2008)

OK, just a bit confused here. Isn't 'sulfite' the same as Campden tablets? I thought Campden was the same as Potassium metabisulfite. 

Now, when should I add the Potassium sorbate to kill the yeast? The wine is still brewing and bubbling well. Should I wait until it stops completely, then add the sorbate, and then re-sweeten to taste? Just trying to get all the steps lined up. So far, the video I have and the rate my specific gravity is changing don't match, so I can't use their timeline.


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## Wade E (Dec 16, 2008)

Silfite is Campden and Campden is k-meta in pill form. Do not add any sulfite to a wine that is not done fermenting. Add sorbate after adding sulfite as without a decent sulfite level sorbate will give off a geranium smell and taste to your wine. Dont add any stabilizers(k-meta and sorbate) till after you have verified that you wine is done fermenting by checking the sg 3 days in a row to make sure your sg i not dropping anymore.


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## Sacalait (Dec 16, 2008)

I agree with Wade but there is no need to add sorbate unless you plan to back sweeten after it has fermented out.

At .994 and .996 your wine is likely finished (.992 is as low as I've ever seen) and needs to be degassed. Shake the carboy vigorously and you'll likely see lots of foaming which is just entrained CO2. Once all the CO2 has dissipated your wine will clear quickly.


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## dloftus (Dec 16, 2008)

I racked for the first time tonight and was really surprised by the amount of yeast sediment and grape pulp left behind in the carboy. My wife is going to feed it to the animals (cows and goats). Hope they enjoy it! 

I added five Campden tablets to each carboy and also checked the SG. - 0.994 for both. They were still bubbling, but much slower, so you all are probably right about fermentation coming to an end. I’ll see if it starts up again. 

I decided not to add the oak chips right now and will wait until I rack the next time. Just want to see how things go for a while. I also shook the carboys to set some of the carbon dioxide out. It looks like I will need to add a little over a half gallon of water to each carboy. 

Just so everyone can see what I have been doing, here are some photos. In the first photo you can see the three buckets used as primary fermenters. You can see my multi-meter, in the upper right of the photo. It is hooked up to the temperature probe attached to the middle bucket. In the last photo, you can see how much water needs to be added: http://www.pbase.com/dloftus/muscadine_wine_making


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## oldwino (Dec 17, 2008)

If you have problems with birds you may check on the web for bird netting. The netting I purchased is 14 ft wide and comes in 100 ft rolls. They have longer rolls but more that 50 ft long is hard to handle. If you can't find the netting I can furnish a supplier I get mine from on the web.


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## dloftus (Dec 17, 2008)

Oldwino, thanks for the info. I don't really have too much trouble with birds. They may peck a few here and there, but overall damage is light. My biggerst problem is with wasps, stink bugs and ants. One of the insects puts a hole in the skin and then everybody comes to eat. After a short time, all I have left is a little hollow ball that use to be a grape. 

Our plan to reduce crop loss is to begin the picking season as soon as possible. We (my wife and I) will pick as early as possible for sale to grocery stores and start the u-pick as soon as there are enough grapes to satisfy the demand. One of our concerns is that if people come out too early, they will pick unripe grapes and won't realize how much better they are if they just wait another week or two.

Since we are just getting started (September 07 was our second season), my biggest crop loss is due to rotting fruit on the vine. Not enough pickers. That will get better as we become better known and develop our markets. I retire in about a year and a half, so working in the vineyard will be much easier when I don't have a full time job.


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## Sacalait (Dec 18, 2008)

This has been my worse year for damage caused by birds, mostly blue jays and cardinals. It looks like I'll have to resort to hanging aluminum pie pans above the vines. This works fairly well but out of laziness I didn't put them up this year.


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## dloftus (Dec 18, 2008)

I think that part of the reason I don't have too much of a bird problem is I have hawks that patrol the pasture. I also have fox and owls in the area, which help to keep the squirrels, raccoons and field mice in check. My vineyard is also out in the open with no trees close by. Any critter making a grape run has a long way to go without cover and then a long way back. The vineyard is also protected by a couple of strands of electrified wire, and that seems to keep the deer out. Overall, my biggest problems has been insects, but I don't spray insecticides, pesticides and only a little herbicide to control the weeds. I'm not 'organic' but the fruit is chemical free when picked, and my customers seem to appreciate that.


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## dloftus (Dec 22, 2008)

*How long to wait*

It has been about a week since I racked the wine for the fist time. One carboy is still bubbling, veeery slowly, and the other one does not show any activity. Both carboys have sediments in the bottom and I'm wondering how long should I let them sit before I rack again and add the roasted oak chips? When would be a good time to try a sample? I have the feeling the hardest part of wine making is the waiting.


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## Wade E (Dec 22, 2008)

I would wait till you rack off the lees to add the chips so that you are not sitting on those lees for too long. After adding chips I would sample after 2 weeks and then if its getting close to the taste you are looking for sample frequently, if not give it another 2 weeks and then sample.


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## Manimal (Dec 22, 2008)

In regards to sampling, I personally think you should be tasting small amounts starting with the pre-fermentation must, right through the entire fermentation process. In my opinion, the best way to learn about wine and in particular, the changes that occur from start to finish of the winemaking process is to taste, taste, taste. This frequent tasting will also allow you to detect and treat any possible problems such as H2S before it becomes serious. SG and TA readings are important, but they should always be treated as information to be used in conjunction with sensory evaluation, not as a substitute for it.


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## Sacalait (Dec 23, 2008)

I'd wait until there is *no* activity from either carboy then I'd degas, let settle for a week or so and rack. Then add your oak and proceed as Wade suggested.


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## dloftus (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks for everyone's input. As suggested, I sampled the wine to see how it's doing. Well, is it very dry and a bit harsh or sharp, not sure exactly how to describe it. I'm thinking it might be a result of high acid. I would like it to be a bit sweeter and more mellow. 

My plan is to:
1. Wait until the bubbles quit completely, let it sit a while to help clear
2. Rack and add oak chips (maybe it will add some mellow flavors), let that sit a while (about two weeks, I think)
3, Rack off the oak chips and let it rest (maybe add some finings to help clear)
4. Rack, add potassium sorbate and sweeten to taste 
5. Bottle and let that age for several months
6. Start sampling on a regular basis.

Does that sound like a good plan?


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## Wade E (Dec 23, 2008)

Make sure you degas before trying to clear it. Make sure you add sulfite before adding sorbate. Also give it a week or more after sweetening to make sure it doesnt start re fermemting.


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## Manimal (Dec 23, 2008)

Sounds like a pretty solid plan to me... just make sure to keep it well topped up at all points during the process. Also, I wouldn't personally degas the wine as suggested by Sacalait... there's no real reason to do so unless you're rushing to get the wine fined and bottled and you may inadvertently impart excess oxygen to the wine thereby speeding up oxidation. The wine will naturally give up its dissolved CO2 over time and throughout the rackings. Be aware, though that some fining agents will not be effective unless the wine is fully degassed, so make sure you give the wine lots of time to settle and clarify on its own and only fine the wine if you really think it needs help clearing. By this time though, the wine should be adequately degassed.


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## dloftus (Dec 24, 2008)

All this talk of gas (buuurrp, sorry!) has me wondering about sparkling wine. I started in brewing by making beer and "gas is our friend". I still have cases of beer bottles and was wondering if I can use them for the wine. If I don't degas, would the wine be carbonated? I understand that I couldn't add any sweetener because I would have to rack and add the sorbate, which would remove a lot of CO2, but I could bottle it dry and add sweetener once it was in my glass. I like the idea of a little bubbly in the wine.

Also, as for sweetner, what would be best? I was thinking corn sugar since it won't impart a flavor as opposed to cane sugar (which I've already used to raise the SG, so I guess it won't matter now), but what about artificial sweeteners like Splenda or 'Sweet N' Low'? They are so much sweeter than sugar and you would have to use a lot less. Any benefits or risks?

Thanks everyone for your input. Lots of good information.


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## Sacalait (Dec 24, 2008)

I only use cane sugar, I'm used to it and I can depend on the end results.

I've used beer bottles in the past, the Groelsh bottles work especially well.

I degas because that hurries the process along...patience is not one of my virtues.


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## dloftus (Dec 28, 2008)

I took a couple of photos this weekend to show the bubbles and the lees. As can be seen, it is still going, and, the other carboy (which had ceased all activity) is now bubbling about the same as this photo. The two images were taken 11 days after the wine was racked. Here is the link:

http://www.pbase.com/dloftus/muscadine_wine_making


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## Sacalait (Dec 29, 2008)

It looks like you've got an active ferment, have you checked the SG lately?


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## Wade E (Dec 29, 2008)

Looking god there!


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## dloftus (Dec 29, 2008)

Sacalait, The last time I checked the SG was when I racked it almost two weeks ago. It was 0.994 so I don't think it has gone much lower. The fermentation has been slow but steady and one of the bubbler valves (the orange one in the photos) doesn't even bubble, the other only occasionally. I'm just waiting for it to quit. It will be two weeks tomorrow (Tuesday 12/30/08) and that is probably not too long to be on the lees. I just checked it now, and it's still going, just like the energizer wine bunny.


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## Sacalait (Dec 30, 2008)

At .994 it is likely finished and is just giving off CO2. At this point it's just a waiting game, you can sit and watch it or rack and degas it but be sure to keep it topped up.


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## dloftus (Jan 5, 2009)

I checked the specific gravity last night and it was .993 or .992 so I figured it was time to rack the wine. I think Sacalait was right that the wine was out gassing and not really fermenting. I added the oak chips (soaked them in Campden for a few minutes) and, I have to say, they had a really nice smell. I think it should help give the wine a more mellow flavor. The wine is also clearing very nicely and has a good red/blue color. I will leave the wine on the oak chips for about three or four weeks and then rack again. A taste sample shows the wine is not as harsh, has no off flavors and is not overly alcoholic. So far, everything is looking good.


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## Sacalait (Jan 5, 2009)

I've never oaked muscadine so I'm curious about your results.

I'm ready to rack a 3gal batch of muscadine and plan to charge it as you would beer then bottle in Grolsh bottles.


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## dloftus (Jan 5, 2009)

Sacalait,
As for the oak, I only used about a cup per 5 gal. because I didn't want to overwhelm the natural wine flavor, only a hint of flavor that would add a nice touch to the overall finish of the wine. I can't wait to see how it turn out.

I talked to my wife last night about doing the same thing to some of our wine, putting it beer bottles with a bit of sugar (a cup per 5 gal. is the rate I use for beer) to make a sparkling wine. I was also going to do a few bottles as a dry wine (one of my son's likes dry wine) and then do some where I sweeten back after using sorbate because I like a semi sweet wine. That will give me several different outcomes for the same batch which is really cool.


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## Sacalait (Jan 5, 2009)

Sweetening back to an SG of 1.001-1.005 will greatly enhance the flavor of the muscadine and that's what I'm looking for.
As for the sparkling part I figure if I don't like the outcome I can always dump the contents and go in a different direction.


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## dloftus (Jan 5, 2009)

*Oak Chips*

I posted a couple of photos of the roasted oak chips in the wine to my photo web site. I thought I had the same amount in each carboy when I was putting the chips in, but I missed by a bit. If there is a real difference, I can always combine the two batches when it is time to bottle.

After racking there were still bubbles coming up and you can see them in among the wood chips in the close up photo. I did stir the wine a bit trying to get rig of the excess CO2 during the transfer, but I may not have been vigorous enough (trying not to get too much oxygen in the wine), so it is still outgassing. 

The wine will now sit for about 3 or 4 weeks and then I'll rack again to remove the oak chips and any lees. I think one more rest period after that, to aid in clearing, and it will be time to bottle. I don't think I'm going to run it through a filter, since I don't own one, and will see how this batch works out. I can get a filter for the next batch if I think I need one.

http://www.pbase.com/dloftus/muscadine_wine_making


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## dloftus (Jan 29, 2009)

It has been a while since I've posted anything, but the wine has just been soaking in the oak chips so there has not been much to write about.

Tonight I decided to rack off the lees and oak chips but was surprised to find small bubbles still coming up. I guess the wine continues to outgas and this may be the reason the wine is not clearing very fast. What is the best way to degas the wine? I transfer using a clean, food quality, plastic bucket so I can clean the glass carboy and then put the wine back in the.

Should I add one Campden tablet per gallon during this transfer (five per carboy)? Should I use any finings yet? One person told me that can also affect the flavor in a negative way. He said the finings can drop out some of the flavor along with the the suspended particles. Any thoughts?

Oh, one thing that surprised me, all the oak chips sunk. I would have thought, being wood, they would float the whole time. But after about five days, almost all of them were on the bottom of the carboy.


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## Wade E (Jan 29, 2009)

Being small pcs of wood they will soak all the way through and when they do they will drop as they will not have air in them any more to keep them buoyant. I use fining agents when a wine wont clear on its own and some may strip a little flavor but have never noticed the difference using SuperKleer or Chitosan or Bentonite and I have done side by side comparisons. Maybe with some computerized analyzing equipment it could be detected but I dont think a person could pick out the fined wine from a naturally cleared wine n a blind comparison myself. As for campden tablets its 1 tablet per gallon. degassing can be done with a big spoon and some serious elbow grease, a drill mounted stirrer, or a vacuum device.


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## Sacalait (Jan 29, 2009)

As Wade said 1 camden tblt per gallon or, as I use, 1/4 tsp K-meta /5gals. (no crushing and it readily dissolves). White oak, which is what you're using, will sink once saturated. Down here in the south white oak is used to make cat fish slat traps (it sinks), a no brainer, Seems that here in the south is where fundamental common sense abounds.


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## Wade E (Jan 29, 2009)

Dont forget that white oak is also used for boats so its not a no brainer.


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## dloftus (Mar 28, 2009)

*Questions about bottling*

I racked the wine several weeks ago, to get it off the oak chips and lees and let it clear. I racked one 5 gal carboy last night (still have one to do) so I could bottle it. On this forum someone mentioned that Campden tables (one per gallon) should be added to stabilize the wine while it ages. So I did that and then started bottling. I put some in three liter jugs, some in 750ml bottles and some in beer bottles. The beer bottles where mixed so that 12 were bottled straight and for the other 12, I added two oz. of sugar (to five quarts wine) to make a sparkling wine. Of course, during the process, the capper broke and I had to buy another one this afternoon. As I finished up bottling the wine I did sample some of it and the taste was bad. I attribute this to the Campden and I have heard the wine will get much better with age. I sure hope so. I also noticed that the wine is starting to look pale and a bit brownish. I understand the Campden can bleach the color out of the wine, is this true?

While at the store today, the storeowner agreed that the poor taste is probably from the Camden. He also said I need to put the wine back in the carboy and let it set for about three days to let the Campden air out of the wine. He says it won’t come out if keep in the bottle with the caps and corks in place. Also, the Campden killed the yeast and it won’t grow on the sugar I added. So, no sparkling wine. But I’m not so sure. So here are my questions:

1. Will the Campden stay in the wine with the cork and caps on? Do I need to put all the wine back in the carboy and let it air out for several days?

2. Did the Campden kill the yeast or is there still hope for the sparkling wine?

3. How much does the Campden effect the color? I notice the wine getting more pale and starting to look a little brownish after the Campden was added this time. That makes about five times I’ve added Campden. Is that too much?

When I racked the wine several weeks ago, I sampled some then and it tasted great. The next batch will not have Campden put in it and I will just have to drink it faster. It’s a nasty job, but someone has to do it.


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## Wade E (Mar 28, 2009)

If youve added campden tablets 5 times then you have probably over sulfited your wine unless your wine has about 1 1/2 years on it since you started it. You first add some when starting the wine to kill off any wild yeast, then you add another tablet per gallon when its done fermenting tp prevent your wine from oxidizing. After that you really should check your SO2 levels with a SO2 kit but you could just do the 3-4 month method which is fairly close to when its needed. As far as the campden killing off your yeast it sounds like you have to much sulfite in there for a fermentation to start again.


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## dloftus (Mar 29, 2009)

Wade,

If I put all the wine back in the carboy, let it set for another four months and then rebottle it, would that help? Is there any way to get the SO2 out faster?


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## Wade E (Mar 30, 2009)

Spalsh racking will rid your wine of a lot of S02, dont be gentle with it to do so.


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## dloftus (Mar 30, 2009)

I did find an article on line that mentions the same thing, aerating the wine to get rid of the SO2. I have also ordered a test kit so I can get a better idea of where my levels are. It looks like the batch is salvageable. I'm happy about that! Wade, thanks very much for the input.

Here is the article in case any one else would like to read it:

Solving the Sulfite Puzzle, by Daniel Pambianchi
http://www.winesathome.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=889


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## Sacalait (Apr 1, 2009)

dloftus,
In December I bottled muscadine wine (5 gals.) into Grolsh beer bottles after adding sugar for sweetening and to charge the wine. The wine is fizzy as anticipated and the bottles are holding the pressure well, no leaks. The surprise was that it has taken 3 months to charge, oh well that shows what a little sulfite will do. All in all, it came out so well that the wife says I'm not allowed to share it with anyone but I do sneak some out from time to time.


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## dloftus (Apr 1, 2009)

Sacalait, thanks for the input on charging the wine. I thought it would only take about a month, like for beer. It's good to know that it takes much longer or I would have given up and started drinking it too soon.


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## dloftus (Apr 8, 2009)

I purchased a SO2 test kit and checked the wine. It is off the scale! The first line is 100 ppm and as I added the wine, the blue color disappeared before I reached that line. I would say I have toooooo much sulfite in my wine, considering the target level is about 40 ppm! 

I have transfered everything back into the carboy, shaking the bottles as I did so to release some of the SO2, and then shook the carboy after I was done. I was getting a lot of foaming so I'm optimistic I can get the SO2 out. Right now the wine will sit in the carboy for a while, occasionally getting shook. I also took the water is out of the bubbler valve so the SO2 can get out. Does this sound about right?

Also, what is the recommendation of you experienced folks as to when Campden should be added to wine made from grapes? I'm sure other beginners have made my mistake. I seemed to have gotten the impression you are suppose to add it at the start, every other time your rack it and then when it is bottled. I now see that is too much.


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## Wade E (Apr 8, 2009)

Get that airlock filled up again as that will protect your wine, even though you have plenty of S02 in there to protect it. Gas will escape with the airlock filled easily but if not there air will be sucked in during barometric changes and just by temp changes. You should add sulfite to the wine when starting to kill wild yeasts and micro-organisms. Then add some when done fermenting. After that it will be after around 3-4 months but now that you have an S02 tester rely on that as it will better tell you if needed or not.


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## dloftus (Jan 19, 2010)

Well, its been a while since I posted to the forum. I have been busy working in the vineyard during the summer and I did save some muscadines to make some more wine. But I need to update everybody on how I finished off my last batch of 10 gallons. 

I followed the advice from the forum and did the aeration procedure. I poured the wined between two buckets about a total of 20 times before putting back in the carboy and did this about three different times. I checked the SO2 level and it never did drop below 100 ppm. Oh well, I tried! The wine is very dry (brewed until all the sugar was used up) and racked during the procedure to leave additional sediment behind. 

I finally bottled the stuff, one 5 gal carboy in early Dec. 09 and the other just last week. I have been drinking the first batch and adding sugar to help kill the dryness (I don't like really dry wine) and tone down the chemical taste of the SO2. I transfer the wine from a 3 liter wine jug into Groulsch bottles (probably spelled that wrong) and add 5 to 6 level tablespoons of sugar and let it set in the refridge overnight. All in all, the sugar makes a BIG difference, it helps to bring out the flavor of the muscadine more. Now I really like it, even preferring it to all the store brands we usually buy Without the sugar is is almost undrinkable swill.

I need to make some beer first and then will make another 5 gal batch of muscadine wine, this time without near as much campden and all juice, no water added.

Don Loftus
Gainesville, FL
http://www.pbase.com/dloftus/grapes


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