# Methanol / Methyl alcohol .... Question



## manku007 (Jul 9, 2009)

Hello Everyone online or Online here 

*I know this is a silly question but it is really a serious thing to me *

I m little afrid when one of my friend who is doing pharamacy (studing) told me that if u do something wrong then it can be Methyl alcohol which is toxic and if we drink it then it will effect us very badly. 

Please let me know each and everything about this thing so that I can feel little safe after all this matter is solved. Throw light on each and every point plz that means :-

** *How it can be made out of errors or mistake or this is not possible.*

** *If it is present in our wine can we take a test so that we can check it.*

** *Any one here in this forum who has this problem before or somthing like that.*

I have also searched on wikipedia.org about Methll Alochol 

Thanks in advanced please please let me know everything I m very confused and afrid of this.


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## smurfe (Jul 9, 2009)

I will give this a shot but I am in no way anywhere near an expert or anywhere close. 

When we ferment wine or beer we are producing Ethanol which is the conversion of sugar to alcohol. If I understand it correctly the yeast, a living organism, consume the sugar and produce waste in the form of ethanol. This alcohol is safe for consumption and is the alcohol in all alcoholic beverages.

The production of Methanol is done with distillation meaning a still, a device that is used to separate the pure alcohol from the other matters. Methanol and Ethanol can both be extracted from distillation I believe. Methanol is also an alcohol produced from organic matters other than sugar such as wood. But I understand that methanol can be produced from most anything. In whiskey making corn is fermented to produce ethanol but methanol can be produced as well. Any story I have ever heard where someone went blind, a side effect of methanol consumption was from drinking distilled alcohols. We do not use the titillation process when we make wine. This is the major reason why distillation of alcohols is illegal in my country. 

Remember, Methanol is produced by distillation. You are not producing alcohol by the distillation process. Hopefully those I know here that are much more well versed on this subject can offer you a more "expert" answer. I would not worry one bit about producing Methanol with your general wine making set up though.


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## Wade E (Jul 9, 2009)

Small amounts of methanol are produced when ever anything is fermented but the amounts are ridicoulsly low and diluted by the rest of the batch. If you were to ferment 6 gallons of wine at say 12% abv and then distilled it to extract every bit of the methanol that was produced you would end up with approx. 3/4 of a tsp and even drinking that by itself would cause no bodily harm. Methanol boils at a lower temp then ethanol or water so if you were to distill it it would be the first thing to come out and you would either throw it away or use it as a cleaning agent around the house cause it makes a great sanitizer or paint thinner. Please dont ask me how I know all this!!!!!!!!


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## myakkagldwngr (Jul 9, 2009)

I've been studing a little online about the next step.. Distilling.
I have only done a couple batches of wine so far and in no way consider myself knowing anything yet.
Having established my credentials I'll now relay what I've read about the distilling process.
All fermenting makes minute amounts of everything from methanol, ethanol and even gets into acetate and other "impurities". 
What I've read says that to "go blind" from the methanol would take drinking more than the body could actually handle for a life time, that is how small the methanol percentage is.
It is another deal when you are distilling the alcohol out of the must and ending up with much purer drink.
When distilling they recommend not catching the first part of a run until you reach a temperature range that is okay.
Roughly to get good alcohol from a still, the temp range is around 173-175-180 degress f., 75-90 C. Nothing below the 75 C. The best light rum is around 75 - 83 C.
I hope this has helped.


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## Malkore (Jul 10, 2009)

Distilling is illegal in almost every country in the world, unless you have permits from the government.

Also, if you do ingest methanol, the remedy is...ethanol! They bind to the same receptors in the body so ethanol essentially neutralizes methanol in the concentrations you'd normally encounter.


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## myakkagldwngr (Jul 10, 2009)

Well of course I would only be making E-fuel.. 
Who would even consider doing something illegal.
Oh that's right,, politicians.


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## kiljoy (Jul 10, 2009)

In general, you will not have any problems with methyl alcohol when fermenting wine or any sort of fruit juice. It's also known as wood alcohol because it is typically derived from fermenting wood. Don't try and make wine out of a tree and you will be fine.

The errors with distilling are getting fusel alcohols in the heads and tails. Also, people would distill with lead lined radiators or anything else they could find. This made people sick. Always use copper tubing.


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## gonzo46307 (Jul 10, 2009)

Wade E said:


> ... Please dont ask me how I know all this!!!!!!!!



The thought never crossed my mind...




Peace,
Bob


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## Madriver Wines (Jul 10, 2009)

Malkore said:


> Distilling is illegal in almost every country in the world, unless you have permits from the government.
> 
> Also, if you do ingest methanol, the remedy is...ethanol! They bind to the same receptors in the body so *ethanol essentially neutralizes methanol* in the concentrations you'd normally encounter.


 So let me get this straight. If I fear I have alcohol poisoning I should drink more alcohol! Damn I love this site!!!


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## djlsdracula (Jul 10, 2009)

From what I've read home distilling is only legal in one country worldwide.
New Zealand
I'm not sure why though.


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## Wade E (Jul 10, 2009)

The pnly reason it is legal there is from what I heard it snuck in on a bill by accident and was to much work for them to undo what they did by accident. It is dangerous if you dont know what you are doing or have a leak in your equipment as this stuff is much more volatile then gasoline and under pressure with a flame right under it making it a bomb to put it politely. You should check for steam leaks before every use to make sure!


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## kiljoy (Jul 11, 2009)

A little bit of US trivia for you. The reason distilling is illegal in the United States is because they want the taxes from it. Google "Whiskey Rebellion". If it weren’t for lost revenue, they wouldn't care. That's why they call the authorities revenuers...


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## myakkagldwngr (Jul 11, 2009)

There shouldn't be too much pressure involved, the alcohol boils off long before the water starts to boil. You want and need to keep the temps just at the point the good stuff evaporates.
And yes, it's just like "Big Dan" said in "Oh Brother where art thou"
"It's all about the money boys!"


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## Wade E (Jul 11, 2009)

For those of you ho dont know, it depends on what kind of a still you are using as some of them have valves which you actually shut off in order for the heads to be separated easier so pressure can get built up.


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## manku007 (Jul 12, 2009)

*Please Read Full * Thanks ......

Thanks Thanks a lot for each and every one, I m very happy to hear all about that hell baby Methanol, I was very afraid of it. 

The reason why I afraid is because I have read in newspaper last days that about 300 Peoples died after drinking poisonous alcohol, that is a traditionally drink produced by some poor people or some kind of bad people they sell that alcohol in very cheap rates about 5 bottles in one Dollar, so people buy it like a mad person and drink it, after 24 hours they are dead , so sad the people who make this alcohol produce it with the help of distillation God knows what do they do to make it and why do they make this kind of poison.

After reading that news my friends try to stop me that I should stop home brewing because of all that accidents, and truly speaking I was also afraid that I was willing to make a good alcohol and if by mistake Methanol comes as a result, then it can damage me as well as my friends who taste my wine .

So that's why I was asking this, I know it is little shocking (my question) but believe me no one knows here about this thing or they do this kind of stuff, I m only and only depending on internet and this forum specially. That's why I have asked this ......

Now I think it is clear that if I m using fruit juice, sugar, water and yeast then it is safe to drink that wine and it will not become Methanol. I M RIGHT .

Thanks again thanks a Lot, plz if u have anything to tell , then plz tell me ...... 

Thanks in advanced bye bye all take care ....... 

*Sorry for late answer my Computer was not in a working condition ......*

*I got some links Please if u have time then have a look on ....*

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Will_bad_homebrew_kill_me_or_make_me_blind?

http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-44348.html

*They all are about Methanol I have read half I will read it after one day little busy ...... if any one want to check, that's why I have kept them here, so that I can get more suggestions.*


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## arcticsid (Jul 12, 2009)

Steve. I think I am going to drink more and go to New Zeland.Where is New Zeland anyway? And what ever happened to the old one? Hic
LOL
Troy


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## Wade E (Jul 12, 2009)

I frequent both the brew forum and the distillers forum so none of that is new to me as I do both. I brew my own beer, make my own wine and also distill my own alc even though its illegal here and I dont give a shiiiiiiit!


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## kiljoy (Jul 13, 2009)

Another useless bit of trivia for you. The reason absinth was outlawed was because people were dying from it. It was actually not the ingredients, but what people were putting into it. They were making "fake" absinth and selling it to unsuspecting souls. So it became stigmatized and subsequently outlawed. To this day, it’s production is still limited, but is no less dangerous that any other liquor.


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## Malkore (Jul 13, 2009)

Madriver Wines said:


> So let me get this straight. If I fear I have alcohol poisoning I should drink more alcohol! Damn I love this site!!!



no, if you suspect you have ingested methanol, then you need to treat with merlot, bud light, or some johnnie walker 


It sounds like that 'cheap alcohol' was likely made improperly, and was also too strong. It'd be like drinking straight everclear. You'd get normal alcohol poisoning, and these poor people can't just run to the emergency room to be treated.


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## manku007 (Jul 13, 2009)

Malkore said:


> You'd get normal alcohol poisoning, and these poor people can't just run to the emergency room to be treated.



Yes that is true Malkore, but the thing is that I don't want to first drink the poisonous alcohol and then run to the hospital, that means if I know that is little danger then why do I drink it.

The main important thing is that I want to know that how it can be made so that I don't do that thing, if possible I would also like to know if there is some method by which I can test that methanol is present in my wine or not and how much it is less (negligible) or in much quantity which can effect me.

My city also don't have very good hospital and all that. 

*Can any one let me know the main summary of this topic plz that means what is the final result or overcome of this topic negative or positive *


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## gonzo46307 (Jul 13, 2009)

Malkore said:


> no, if you suspect you have ingested methanol, then you need to treat...some johnnie walker
> ... blah, blah, blah.



Red, Black, Green, or Gold?

I just need to know how much to budget. 

Yah, I'm kinda on vacation this week.

Peace,
Bob


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## manku007 (Jul 13, 2009)

hello gonzo, sorry but I can't understand u, I cannot make it what u want to say or u r trying to. It going beond my mind, flying up from my mind


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## kiljoy (Jul 14, 2009)

manku007,

You have absolutely nothing to fear by fermenting fruit, corn, or cane sugars. You can not make methanol by accident (in winemaking). It takes a laboratory and a chemist. One danger to be aware of is lead poisoning. Make sure to use glass or food grade plastic for your fermenters and you will be fine. The worst thing that you can do is make vinegar. 

The 300 sick people were most likely caused by someone selling them methanol and telling them it is ethanol. Unfortunately, this happens quite often in countries where the regulation is non-existent or under enforced. In the United States, people get sick when they attempt to distill corn whisky (moonshine) and use improper equipment. They will use old car radiators which contain lead and traces of anti-freeze (glycol).

The old test for bad “shine” is to burn it. If it burns blue, it’s ok. If it burns yellow, it’s tainted. 

P.S. Gonzo’s reference is to the color of the Johnny Walker whisky label.


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## manku007 (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks kiljoy,

Thanks Kiljoy for ur suggestions and help, believe me or not u haven't killed my joy but u have raised it . Yes I think that is very right that if I m not using bad materials then nothing can go wrong, and if the recipes are well tested then there is nothing that methanol can be made . 

Now I think if I want to make my wine I will be surely discuss that recipe with u guys and after that u can tell me that it is ok to make or not.

Thanks for each and every members who has helped me (or not )..... bye bye take care.

It is good that we can test it by burning it, I have study it in my old classes that ethanol burns with blue flame .

*Any other suggestions are also welcome *

*IMPORTANT :- Do some kind of micro organisms are also responsible for producing methanol or not. I mean to say that if they occure in my wine jug accidently then can they cause the methanol as a result, or it is not possible. HOPE THAT U ALL CAN UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION.*


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## mixmix (May 12, 2010)

yes I'm very concerned about the methanol content in my wine too, and in future projects of plum distillation. So Ive gathered that only if using wood, grain or high pectin fruit would yeild enough methanol for concern.
BUT on the site "homedistiller" it says:

"Methanol is formed when fermenting beverages high in pectins - eg grapes and berries. Starting with a grain or sugar based wort, in a clean fermentor with a yeast culture from a well aereated source will result in small/none formed."

I thought that grain would produce the most methanol? So when he says that fermenting grapes produces alot of methanol, why then is wine ok to drink as is? (I mean without further purification) Is it because the methanol is in such small quantities?


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## myakkagldwngr (May 12, 2010)

Exactly. "All" fermentation produces methanol and other chemicals, but in very, very low percentages.
The problem arises when these "low wines" are distilled into high alcohol contents.
That's when you have to understand what you're doing much better.
Think of it the same as when they process crude oil.
You start off with crude, and it's processed using heat, you get everything from kerosene, diesel, gasoline and all the other wonderful chemicals that we've come to depend on. Now at what percentages I'm not sure, but at different temps, they get a different product.
It's all there in the crude, it just has to be seperated out.


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## mixmix (May 12, 2010)

ok I suppose thats why theres no distillation involved (just to rid it of methanol, not the water) in beer making or wine making...because the methanol content is inconsiderable.

BUT, then if you drank say a glass of wine, and a glass of spirit with the methanol left in but water taken out (the same ethanol dose), logically the methanol content would be the same in proportion to the ethanol, just the extra water in the wine would change. apart from the fact that different fruits would produce different amounts of methanol but not by much, that only leaves the conclusion that its the extra water in wine that means its ok to drink.
Think of it this way,
You take 2 bottles of the same wine, drink one of them.
distill the other one to get rid of just the water, and drink that.
the fact that youve distilled one of them doesnt change the ratio of ethanol methanol
so why would it be safe to drink the wine?

"Everything is poison, it all depends on the dose."


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## Mud (May 12, 2010)

Just a couple comments on the info given out above regarding distilling: Alcohol will not boil off before water in a still. They boil off together in a varying ratio depending on the abv of the liquid. Working at atmospheric pressures you cannot produce any higher abv than 95.6%. 

Methanol and ethanol cannot be separated in any sort of hobby still. They form their own azeotrope like water and ethanol. Fortunately the remedy for methanol poising is ethanol, so we're good. 

The first liquid produced from a still contains, along with ethanol, acetone, methanol, and some other lower alcohols produced by any fermentation. It's often called foreshots. No one in their right mind would consider drinking it. It tastes and smells like, well, acetone. Just disgusting. 

The burn test for moonshine has more to do with proofing it than anything. When it gets toward yellow it's probably below 50% abv.


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## Minnesotamaker (May 12, 2010)

People have been making wine for thousands and thousands of years. I have never even heard of a case of methanol poisoning from this source. The only methanol poisoning I've heard of, is when someone drinks by accident, a methanol that was produced and distilled commercially thinking it was an alcohol they could drink. 

If you make wine using traditional methods and traditional ingredients, you have zero chance of poisoning yourself with methanol.


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## myakkagldwngr (May 13, 2010)

Only thing foreshots are good for are starting your charcoal and don't make the mistake of trying to pour more on an already hot pile of coals.


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## mixmix (May 19, 2010)

If I was to do some distillation of lets say "plum water suger" then I would use a homemade still with a thermometer (where the vapor reaches the condenser or in the liquid to be distilled?) so as to get a more precise distillation. discarding the first 50 ml sounds a bit hit or miss to me. 

so one would have to get the liquid up to the point at which the methanol boils (or acetone etc even though thats the first time Ive heard that, it sounds like you know your stuff) and no higher, untill no methanol comeout anymore, and discard? then bring up to ethanol boiling point and keep everything that comes out? maybe repeat the process a couple of times to purify further?
So even with a still with a thermometer, I wouldnt be able to separate methanol from ethanol? or just not to complete purity of the ethanol?
This seems confusing, and still cant see why distilling a bottle of wine would do you harm seeing as your only taking stuff away(H20), theres no chemical reaction happening.


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## St Allie (May 19, 2010)

Minnesotamaker said:


> People have been making wine for thousands and thousands of years. I have never even heard of a case of methanol poisoning from this source. The only methanol poisoning I've heard of, is when someone drinks by accident, a methanol that was produced and distilled commercially thinking it was an alcohol they could drink.
> 
> If you make wine using traditional methods and traditional ingredients, you have zero chance of poisoning yourself with methanol.



it's not poisoning you have to watch out for.. high concentrations of everything in a wine.. once you remove the water.. depending on the initial ( high) SG.

once distilled.. watch out for blindness..

you are dead in the water at this point. It will literally kill you .


Allie


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## kiljoy (May 19, 2010)

Moonshiners throw away the “heads” and “tails” when distilling. The highest concentrations of fusel alcohols are in the first bit that comes out and the last. One test is to burn some of it. If the flame is blue, you are OK, but if it’s yellow, then there is some bad stuff in there. However, methanol also burns blue. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonshine


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## Mud (May 19, 2010)

mixmix said:


> If I was to do some distillation of lets say "plum water suger" then I would use a homemade still with a thermometer (where the vapor reaches the condenser or in the liquid to be distilled?) so as to get a more precise distillation. discarding the first 50 ml sounds a bit hit or miss to me.
> 
> so one would have to get the liquid up to the point at which the methanol boils (or acetone etc even though thats the first time Ive heard that, it sounds like you know your stuff) and no higher, untill no methanol comeout anymore, and discard? then bring up to ethanol boiling point and keep everything that comes out? maybe repeat the process a couple of times to purify further?
> So even with a still with a thermometer, I wouldnt be able to separate methanol from ethanol? or just not to complete purity of the ethanol?
> This seems confusing, and still cant see why distilling a bottle of wine would do you harm seeing as your only taking stuff away(H20), theres no chemical reaction happening.



Homedistiller.org has more information. I wouldn't bother with the forum. They'll just scold you for asking questions. But the main page has a lot of info. The Alcohol Library is a huge resource, too.


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