# Site Selection and Winter Sun Exposure



## finewines25 (Apr 1, 2022)

Hi all,

I'm planning to plant some Cab and Chardonnay in a Northern California climate (a bit away from the coast, so summer days are hot and there is only limited fog).

I have a couple of site options on an E/SE facing light slope. However, due to the surrounding terrain, sun exposure is shortened to about 8-9 per day around this time of the year (April). From around Nov to Feb, there is little to no direct sunlight for these sites (even with surrounding vegetation cleared and trimmed). Will this be an issue for the plants and growing decent grapes for wine making, particularly in the wet winter months or could plants be healthy with no light during dormancy? I suspect there's at least high chance for fungus grow.

Thanks for your opinion and shared experiences!


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## CortneyD (Apr 1, 2022)

How is the breeze at the site Nov-Feb? Stagnant air/high humidity is traditionally the biggest invitation for fungus, so I'd wager that with good air circulation and/or drier air, the lack of light wouldn't be a huge issue since the plants are dormant.


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## finewines25 (Apr 1, 2022)

Thanks! There are some lightly windy days throughout the year, but would say at least an equal amount of days with stagnant air. May have to monitor more closely... Some trees in the neighborhood grow some moss.


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## ChuckD (Apr 1, 2022)

Just curious. Are we talking commercial scale? Hobby? Or somewhere in between?


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## finewines25 (Apr 2, 2022)

Hobby. 1/8-1/4 acre max.


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## tmcfadden932 (Apr 2, 2022)

What makes you want to grow cool weather grapes in a hot environment that is only going to get hotter as the years go by? 
There are good grapes, both white and red, that will do well in the heat, Spanish and Italian varietals come to mind. 
I take care of a 1/3 acre vineyard in Wilton, Ca. where it gets hot. In 2021 we had a heat spike that took temps a week before harvest over 100F and raisined up the fruit real good and I had to work with sugar at 29%.
Spanish Albarino for a white and Tempranillo for a red do well in the heat and Tempranillo makes a nice Rose' too, 
Italian Barbera makes both a nice white and you can use the skins in your red. Both Aglianico and Montepulciano make wonderful reds and rose'.
The East/ Southeast slope is going to cause problems with any grape. Tempranillo is an early ripening varietal and would be your best bet. Cab Sauv takes 180 days from bud break to ripening. In Wilton, Ca., in full sun, ripens in early October. so I would not recommend that varietal.


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## ChuckD (Apr 2, 2022)

finewines25 said:


> Hobby. 1/8-1/4 acre max.


I’m starting a hobby vineyard myself this spring. Only cold hardy grapes for me.


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## finewines25 (Apr 4, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> What makes you want to grow cool weather grapes in a hot environment that is only going to get hotter as the years go by?
> There are good grapes, both white and red, that will do well in the heat, Spanish and Italian varietals come to mind.
> I take care of a 1/3 acre vineyard in Wilton, Ca. where it gets hot. In 2021 we had a heat spike that took temps a week before harvest over 100F and raisined up the fruit real good and I had to work with sugar at 29%.
> Spanish Albarino for a white and Tempranillo for a red do well in the heat and Tempranillo makes a nice Rose' too,
> ...



Thanks for all the tips. I'm in the East Bay area (near Pleasant Hill, CA with a heat summation of around 3,500 degrees per year). We get some hot summer days, but it's not as hot and dry as the Central Valley. I wanted to go with some Chard and Cab due to some personal preference, but will look into Tempranillo. I have some sliver of higher-up property that gets good sun exposure and could be used for 4-5 plants of some varietal that requires more sun exposure.


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## finewines25 (Apr 4, 2022)

ChuckD said:


> I’m starting a hobby vineyard myself this spring. Only cold hardy grapes for me.


Sounds like you are further North-East? Spring should be on its way.


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## ChuckD (Apr 4, 2022)

finewines25 said:


> Sounds like you are further North-East? Spring should be on its way.


I’m in NE Wisconsin, and the calendar says so but three inches of snow last night and more coming. I suppose it’s better than last year when we had an early spring then a real late frost. I lost the blossoms on a few apple trees and heard some vineyards lost a lot of buds to frost.


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## CortneyD (Apr 5, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> What makes you want to grow cool weather grapes in a hot environment that is only going to get hotter as the years go by?
> There are good grapes, both white and red, that will do well in the heat, Spanish and Italian varietals come to mind.
> I take care of a 1/3 acre vineyard in Wilton, Ca. where it gets hot. In 2021 we had a heat spike that took temps a week before harvest over 100F and raisined up the fruit real good and I had to work with sugar at 29%.
> Spanish Albarino for a white and Tempranillo for a red do well in the heat and Tempranillo makes a nice Rose' too,
> ...


My observations re: plants and heat tolerances as a Master Gardener. I still recommend folks planting things hardy to the cooler end of their zone because, while temps are rising, we are still getting major cold snaps (and unseasonable ones at that) across the nation and even in areas that historically have not had these events. Planting at the top end of your growing zone means those plants may not survive a poorly timed cold snap or cold-weather event (see much of Texas after the week's long winter weather). If you plant cool-adapted plants you can more easily mitigate hot weather events (shade cloth, extra watering, strategic pruning) than you can mitigate cold snaps. Or you shoot the gap and go for something thats puts your growing zone in the middle of its recommendation. But that's my plant-forward line of thinking that prioritizes plant health and survival- it isn't a fruit-production based recommendation. Just my 2 cents!


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## tmcfadden932 (Apr 6, 2022)

CortneyD said:


> My observations re: plants and heat tolerances as a Master Gardener. I still recommend folks planting things hardy to the cooler end of their zone because, while temps are rising, we are still getting major cold snaps (and unseasonable ones at that) across the nation and even in areas that historically have not had these events. Planting at the top end of your growing zone means those plants may not survive a poorly timed cold snap or cold-weather event (see much of Texas after the week's long winter weather). If you plant cool-adapted plants you can more easily mitigate hot weather events (shade cloth, extra watering, strategic pruning) than you can mitigate cold snaps. Or you shoot the gap and go for something thats puts your growing zone in the middle of its recommendation. But that's my plant-forward line of thinking that prioritizes plant health and survival- it isn't a fruit-production based recommendation. Just my 2 cents!


East of the San Francisco Bay does not have a winter as you know it. Temps get down to around 32F and that's about it. Frost happens about once every 20 years, except on the mountains. I moved from Ohio to California 40 years ago and found what you learned as a grower there does not apply here. It's the heat that causes problems.


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## Snafflebit (Apr 6, 2022)

finewines25 said:


> Thanks for all the tips. I'm in the East Bay area (near Pleasant Hill, CA with a heat summation of around 3,500 degrees per year). We get some hot summer days, but it's not as hot and dry as the Central Valley. I wanted to go with some Chard and Cab due to some personal preference, but will look into Tempranillo.


May I suggest choosing grape varieties that can all be blended together, such as Cab and Merlot or Cab Franc


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## CortneyD (Apr 8, 2022)

LOL @tmcfadden932 . Of course San Fran doesn't have Wisconsin or Midwest winters!!!! I'm just saying, as someone who has lived and gardened in Texas as well as Wisconsin, that cold will always be an issue. Hot temps won't kill the plants (but obviously can impact yields and quality) but just a few days at or below freezing can kill everything and the entire investment is lost, not just that year's harvest. Just look at the horticultural devastation in the South after last year's winter storm. It is always worth taking that into account when investing in long-term crops like trees and fruit plants.


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## BigH (Apr 17, 2022)

finewines25 said:


> However, due to the surrounding terrain, sun exposure is shortened to about 8-9 per day around this time of the year (April). From around Nov to Feb, there is little to no direct sunlight for these sites (even with surrounding vegetation cleared and trimmed).



I am really not qualified to answer your question. My climate is just too different. I recommend that you find a grape grower in your area and try to talk to them. What are they growing, and have they tried growing the varieties that you want to grow? Planting a the wrong variety for a given site is a 10 year headache that you want to avoid. You have to plant varieties that are suited to your location.

Ok, with that said, I would personally not be too concerned about the dormant season. Instead, I would focus on

the frost free length of your growing season
the total amount of heat you get per growing season. GDD is a good way to estimate this
how many days and GDD it takes to ripen a crop of the varieties you want to grow
what kind of sun exposure you will have after veraison to finish ripening the crop
whether you will have enough heat left after harvest to harden off your canes
if those two varieties can take the worst of the summer heat that you will get
Lastly, I think I would hedge my odds and plant 4 varieties or more, with a mix of long and short season varieties. You might want to pick a variety from a region in Italy or Argentina that resembles your local environment.

Good luck.
H


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 18, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> East of the San Francisco Bay does not have a winter as you know it. Temps get down to around 32F and that's about it. Frost happens about once every 20 years, except on the mountains. I moved from Ohio to California 40 years ago and found what you learned as a grower there does not apply here. It's the heat that causes problems.


I went from Colorado to Florida and 32 is rare here.. Having said that, last week of January I got down to 26, a hard frost, first in at least 10 years, maybe longer, and I lost half of a grove of mixed fruit TREES that were hardy to 30 degrees. All it took was one night so there is a lot of merit to what CortneyD says and a freeze after bud break can also be enough of a shock to kill the rest of the plant to the trunk or root crown.

Put 5-10 years of effort and growth into something and watch it vaporize in one day... You'll wish you did things differently.


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## tmcfadden932 (Apr 29, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> I went from Colorado to Florida and 32 is rare here.. Having said that, last week of January I got down to 26, a hard frost, first in at least 10 years, maybe longer, and I lost half of a grove of mixed fruit TREES that were hardy to 30 degrees. All it took was one night so there is a lot of merit to what CortneyD says and a freeze after bud break can also be enough of a shock to kill the rest of the plant to the trunk or root crown.
> 
> Put 5-10 years of effort and growth into something and watch it vaporize in one day... You'll wish you did things differently.


Temps in the upper teens for a short period won't harm wine grapes.


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 29, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> Temps in the upper teens for a short period won't harm wine grapes.


Yes and no, it depends on what stage of de-acclimation the plant is in and what kind of freeze event- Radiation or Advection with a combination of the two being the most deadly.


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## tmcfadden932 (May 1, 2022)

CortneyD said:


> My observations re: plants and heat tolerances as a Master Gardener. I still recommend folks planting things hardy to the cooler end of their zone because, while temps are rising, we are still getting major cold snaps (and unseasonable ones at that) across the nation and even in areas that historically have not had these events. Planting at the top end of your growing zone means those plants may not survive a poorly timed cold snap or cold-weather event (see much of Texas after the week's long winter weather). If you plant cool-adapted plants you can more easily mitigate hot weather events (shade cloth, extra watering, strategic pruning) than you can mitigate cold snaps. Or you shoot the gap and go for something thats puts your growing zone in the middle of its recommendation. But that's my plant-forward line of thinking that prioritizes plant health and survival- it isn't a fruit-production based recommendation. Just my 2 cents!


Wisconsin and California are two different climate extremes. Where you live the cold that comes out of Canada can go well below 0 degrees F for days at a time. In the last 4 decades, I have experienced only one event here in California's Central Valley where it went below 20F for days at a time, that was in 1990. Normally we have the Sierra Nevada Mountains shielding us from those cold blasts that come from the north that you get. We have the warming influence of the Pacific ocean.










Predicting cold hardiness of grapes


A computer model developed by Washington State University is helping grape growers across the nation and on several continents better predict grapevine cold hardiness.One of the limitations to growing juice and wine grape varieties in northern latitudes is cold temperature. Grape growers in the...




www.goodfruit.com


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## tmcfadden932 (May 1, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> Yes and no, it depends on what stage of de-acclimation the plant is in and what kind of freeze event- Radiation or Advection with a combination of the two being the most deadly.











Predicting cold hardiness of grapes


A computer model developed by Washington State University is helping grape growers across the nation and on several continents better predict grapevine cold hardiness.One of the limitations to growing juice and wine grape varieties in northern latitudes is cold temperature. Grape growers in the...




www.goodfruit.com


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (May 1, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> Predicting cold hardiness of grapes
> 
> 
> A computer model developed by Washington State University is helping grape growers across the nation and on several continents better predict grapevine cold hardiness.One of the limitations to growing juice and wine grape varieties in northern latitudes is cold temperature. Grape growers in the...
> ...


Interesting app. It can certainly help. At least give you a bit more confidence in trying something.

But it's complicated.

We have weather apps in Florida that developers have spent millions on trying to determine the path of hurricanes using weather models 5 days in advance to be able to advise evacuations. And out of the 30 or so used by the NWS, they have determined they are about 15% accurate on average. I don't think millions was pored into that grape growing app.

I think you are missing the point or you do not want to understand that a plant goes through a de-acclimation period in spring. A dip below freezing is enough to kill a plant that otherwise would be hardy down to -5 in December.

If you live in zone 6B, and you plant a vine hardy to zone 7 and because of what you believe about global warming you think you are not going to have any problems, you are playing Russian roulette because that zone 7 plant is going to wake up sooner than a zone 5 vine and it is going to start to se-acclimate and one late season freeze and poof, it's done. It only takes one freeze after a plant reaches a certain de-acclimation threshold. I lost half an orchard this year because of this and it was only a 4 degree differential from what the trees were hardy too.

Go ahead, lots of people are growing Cab Sav in Michigan in 6B because global warming or whatever has given the area some mild winters but why not just plant grapes that are hardy to 2 zones lower and have confidence you won't lose all your hard work and effort?

It's like us in Florida, why aren't we growing vinifera grapes like cab sav, Zin, or any of the heat tolerant Spanish or Italian varieties now that they have Pierce D resistant rootstock that is supposed to protect the vines from getting it....

Because it simply doesn't work and if it did, everybody would be growing them here instead of Muskadines that make kerosene flavored wine or American /vinifera hybrids that are genetically resistant to it Like Black Spanish. It might take years for PD to kill your vinifera, but it's going to, sooner or later. I learned to not gamble against mother nature because when you do, you WILL loose. Every. Single. Time.


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## VinesnBines (May 1, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> Interesting app. It can certainly help. At least give you a bit more confidence in trying something.
> 
> But it's complicated.
> 
> ...


This is true. In 2020 my second year cold hardy hybrids were killed back two or three times. I lost a couple vines and several are still struggling. The hardest hit were the Marchal Foch; the most cold hardy of the varieties. The hardest frost was the last one on May 10. The vines just could not handle the repeated kill back.


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## CortneyD (May 1, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> Interesting app. It can certainly help. At least give you a bit more confidence in trying something.
> 
> But it's complicated.
> 
> ...


This was the point I was trying to make! If you've been paying attention to weather patterns in the PNW and South, you'd be a bit nervous planting that kind of investment with plants geared toward the high end of temperatures rather than the low end. Freezes will kill everything you have. Heat waves will give you poor production and quality, but won't kill your vines.


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