# Oak in Secondary VS Primary



## seth8530

Title explains it all. Does anyone here know about the differences and the pros and cons entailed with using oak during the primary stage of fermentation instead of just when you are aging the wine?

I have done some searching on this issue but have not been able to find too much on it.


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## LoveTheWine

I believe adding oak during primary tends to soak up off flavors and does other beneficial things to wine other than just adding oak flavors.

This year I had slightly under-ripe grapes that, when crushed smelled very vegetative. I added lots of un-toasted and med toast oak chips and the finished result was wine without any vegetative smell or taste (I also used Opti-Red). The resulting wine had no oak taste in it and I plan on barrel aging and adding staves to impart this flavor.

Adding in secondary is usually for adding oak flavor and oak tannins.


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## the_rayway

I believe JohnT just did an article about this - did you have a look?


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## seth8530

the_rayway said:


> I believe JohnT just did an article about this - did you have a look?



Are you talking about the one on the front page? If so, I have already read that article which I enjoyed reading quite a bit.


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## seth8530

LoveTheWine said:


> I believe adding oak during primary tends to soak up off flavors and does other beneficial things to wine other than just adding oak flavors.
> 
> This year I had slightly under-ripe grapes that, when crushed smelled very vegetative. I added lots of un-toasted and med toast oak chips and the finished result was wine without any vegetative smell or taste (I also used Opti-Red). The resulting wine had no oak taste in it and I plan on barrel aging and adding staves to impart this flavor.
> 
> Adding in secondary is usually for adding oak flavor and oak tannins.



I have read things similar to what you are talking about in the past. Which I think is quite interesting and useful to know about.... Hopefully someone will come forward with more information on it.. or at least a good link to some more information.


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## the_rayway

I thought it was pretty great! I too am looking at the differences in primary vs secondary.

From what I've got so far, primary: increases mouthfeel, helps with colour retention, adds tannins, and helps with clearing.

Secondary: adds more of the actual oak characteristics of vanilla/toast/coffee, etc.

I will be doing some oak 'testing' with different toasts, timing, layering, etc. one of these days. I would like to see the differences it makes on the same wine.


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## seth8530

Yeah, I think we are all familiar with what oak will do in the secondary ( its where the yummy goodness comes from right?)... 

"From what I've got so far, primary: increases mouthfeel, helps with colour retention, adds tannins, and helps with clearing."

I have heard all those things too, but I wonder if they are actually true or if it is just a case of the winemaker thinking it is true. If you do some experiments on it I would be more than interested to hear about your results.


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## richmke

The wine kit I am in the process of making uses oak shavings in the primary, and oak cubes in the secondary.


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## vernsgal

I use the powdered oak in primary for mouthfeel and some tannin and use the cubes or spirals in the secondary. I found using the cubes in the primary didn't really leave you with the flavor you would be trying to get.The coils seem real strong though so I would watch how long you leave them in


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## BernardSmith

seth8530 said:


> Yeah, I think we are all familiar with what oak will do in the secondary ( its where the yummy goodness comes from right?)...
> 
> "From what I've got so far, primary: increases mouthfeel, helps with colour retention, adds tannins, and helps with clearing."
> 
> I have heard all those things too, but I wonder if they are actually true or if it is just a case of the winemaker thinking it is true. If you do some experiments on it I would be more than interested to hear about your results.



But you know that you would have to do double blind randomized tests to get rid of the wine maker's inherent /unintended biases. You cannot do double blind random tests alone


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## WI_Wino

Did you find this thread in your searching?

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f74/untoasted-oak-31731/


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## seth8530

Thanks for the link, I will give it a look.


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## JohnT

I think it is all a question of what you want to get out of it. 

I find that (fermenting on oak) adds little to none of the complex flavor components that I want out of my oak. It will add (to a small degree) some of the "Raw-wood" flavors. 

As a corrective measure (as described above), I have noticed no benefit to any flaws in the grape. Wood can mask flaws, but does little to correct them. 

My feeling (and it is just my feeling) that fermenting on oak is not worth the expense.


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## Pumpkinman

Seth,
Oak added at crush and/or to the primary can contribute the follwing

Compounds developed during the toasting process (of the oak) aid in the initiation of anthocyanin stabilization from the start of fermentation.
Anthocyanin play an important role in tannin retention in and aging. There is a close association between anthocyanins and wine color and color stability. 
Compounds react with polyphenolicmaterial (tannins) from the grape enhancing mid-palette mouthfeel in wines.
Certain “green/vegetal” characters in the must can be minimized
Untoasted Oak appears to complement toasted oak, a combination of toasted and untoasted oak work in concert to aid in color stabilization and produce increased smoothness and mouthfeel.
Plus in my opinion, the oak seems to "marry" with the wine when added during fermentation and resemble more of a barrel aged character.


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## seth8530

Interesting points John and Pumpkin, I appreciate the insight. So perhaps the best of both worlds would be fermenting with oak spirals in primary and then moving those spirals onward into your secondary as well?


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## JohnT

Primary fermentation lasts, say, 7 days. Would that be enough time for spirals? 

I would say that using spirals for both fermentation and forward is an interesting idea, but I fail to see any benefit.

I obtain my tannic structure from maceration. As they start out, most would say that they are too tannic.


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## Pumpkinman

John,
You have a good point about 7 days and spirals, I usually transfer the spiral to the secondary and add another half if needed, I don't add too much knowing that the wine will have its turn in a barrel. I think that we are on the same page, I enjoy tannic wines as well.


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## sdelli

I use chips in the primary due to their fast extraction.... Then nothing in the secondary but mlf.... Then spirals and barrel cycles during aging.... But I have to agree.... Not to sure if the chips are giving me anything worth talking about.


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## sdelli

Tannin.... Tannin..... Tannin
I have to shout out that my latest pleasure has been on how nice my red wine is developing with the addition of different tannins as it ages! Of course spirals and barrels are helping too.... But TANNINS are definitely adding some great flavor accent to them that I have been looking for! So..... Forget the wood in the primary.... Add some tannin instead. Then continue into secondary and into aging with a little mix as you go.....


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## ForzaItalia

Sdelli, what kind of tannin did you use? Ft Rouge?


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## sdelli

ForzaItalia said:


> Sdelli, what kind of tannin did you use? Ft Rouge?



I am using three of them now at different times....
One from LD Carlson
Tannin Complex
Tannin Riche Extra

Here is a link from this site for good reading....

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/entries/tannin.html


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## altavino

small format oak , ie toasted chips and powders are used durring primary fermentation for a couple reasons.

due to large relative surface area , they are quick release so give up all their compounds in the fast time of a primary ferment, 
they add some tannin , this rounds out the mouthfeel of the wine as the short chain seed tannins can bind into longer chains early reducing harshness. 
they help fix colour compounds which can be full in the primary then fade as the wine ages . chips in the primary may be though of as a color stabilizer , helpfull with varieties like zinfandel which struggle to get nice colour , especialy with over cropped Central Valley fruit.

American oak chips and powders in the primary are the most effective way to reduce vegital character in underipe varieties of cabernet suav , cab franc and syrah. They also work very well with hybrid and native fruit , vegital character is minimised and fruit flavours shine.

chips and powders are intended for fermentation stage for these reasons and are not really intended as an aging stage oak addition. there are many compounds in the oak powder that are metabolised and buffered by the yeast in an active ferment . this is why oak in the primary doesn't add much oak flavour , NEWS FLASH its not supposed to . its the secondary benefits above you are shooting for.

this buffering of the oak results in good integration.

for a light red like pinot noir , 1g/litre is standard , for other reds like syrah or cab sauv , 2g/litre , for a hybrid red 4g/litre.

to get a good sence of this ( its harder to tell in a red wine , side by side batches , one control one with oak will highlight things ) also one might compare a chardonnay barrel fermented in a new barrel vs one simply stored in a new barrel.

one chardonnay is complex and smooth , the other , chateau plywood even if the time lapsed in a new barrel is the same ie 2 weeks .

for oak post fermentation , you want to use a larger format, slower release , less end grain character product , thats where cubes , spirals , staves and barrels come in. you are adding flavour and tannin at this stage.


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## seth8530

Thanks for the post, do you mind if I ask where you got this information so I do even more reading into it? It really frustrates me when I do not understand what is going on. I appreciate what you have contributed to this discussion as well as the other knowledgeable members on this forum. 

So, I guess next time I make some grape wine I will experiment with adding a small addition of chips or oakpowder up front and then save the spirals for the actual aging process.


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## seth8530

sdelli said:


> I am using three of them now at different times....
> One from LD Carlson
> Tannin Complex
> Tannin Riche Extra
> 
> Here is a link from this site for good reading....
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/entries/tannin.html



BTW good link by Pumpkin.


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## altavino

wines & vines has alot of information on oak adjuncts , they have a searchable database 

winebussiness monthly has alot more on the use of them its been very well covered.

the rest is knowledge gained from years of winemaking and using the products.


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## manvsvine

Stavin has some good info on their stite too.
Quote "
Why Add Toasted Oak at Crush?
1. Compounds developed during the toasting process aid in the initiation of anthocyanin stabilization from the start of fermentation.
2. Aromatic aldehyde compounds extracted from the toasted oak may aid in the stabilization of Co-pigment stacks (protective mechanism for monomeric anthocyanins).
3. These compounds appear to have sparing effect on acetaldehyde produced by yeast in exponential growth phase, enabling effect described above, #1, to be more effective.
4. The same reactive compounds described above also appear to react with polyphenolic material (tannins) from the grape enhancing mid-palette mouthfeel in wines.
5. Used in combination with macro aeration, certain “green/vegetal” characters in the must can be minimized."


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## WVMountaineerJack

Why VS? We do both, oakmor in the primary to give it an oaky start then chips or staves or beans after the second racking. I would guess its good to have some additional tannins in at the start to bind up proteins etc, then if its not enough for your taste add some more later after the yeast has settled out following the first racking into the carboy.

WVMJ


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## Pumpkinman

Seth, something that I forgot to add about adding chips to the primary, it is the only time that I'll use chips: Using chips in the primary , the active yeast metabolizes and buffers the oak. much like a barrel ferment.


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## seth8530

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Why VS? We do both, oakmor in the primary to give it an oaky start then chips or staves or beans after the second racking. I would guess its good to have some additional tannins in at the start to bind up proteins etc, then if its not enough for your taste add some more later after the yeast has settled out following the first racking into the carboy.
> 
> WVMJ







Pumpkinman said:


> Seth, something that I forgot to add about adding chips to the primary, it is the only time that I'll use chips: Using chips in the primary , the active yeast metabolizes and buffers the oak. much like a barrel ferment.




Thanks for the advice guys, I think I might buy some chips just for primary and try them out at around 1.5 ounces per 5 gallons. Might use a fairly neutral toast.. And then I well try reserving my staves for the secondary for the flavour additions. I guess to really figure this out I would need to do a side by side.


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## vernsgal

seth8530 said:


> I guess to really figure this out I would need to do a side by side.


 
I've started doing that with some. 1 gal jugs are great for that . And always remember it'll end with what taste you prefer!


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## the_rayway

seth8530 said:


> Thanks for the advice guys, I think I might buy some chips just for primary and try them out at around 1.5 ounces per 5 gallons. Might use a fairly neutral toast.. And then I well try reserving my staves for the secondary for the flavour additions. I guess to really figure this out I would need to do a side by side.



Hey Seth - join our Wine of the Month Club as an excuse to give a trial run


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## vernsgal

the_rayway said:


> Hey Seth - join our Wine of the Month Club as an excuse to give a trial run



Sorry Seth but I have to second that!


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## seth8530

What is this wine of the month club that y'all speak of.


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## vernsgal

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/november-2013-wine-month-club-42000/

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/december-2013-wine-month-club-42266/

here's the links for November & December


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## seth8530

Thanks, I will give that a look!


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## FlavorSeeker

*I forgot to add oak during primary.*

My plan was to start this WinExpert Chardonnay six gallon kit in my primary and then secondary as two three-gallon batches: one oaked for drinking and the other unoaked for cooking. However, I missed the kit instructions, stating the three oak packs were to be added to the primary fermentation.

I've read this thread, hoping to find the answer to my question, "Is it OK to oak during secondary ferment?" I see that yes, it is, but I may only pick up the oak flavors, but miss out on the potentially more important benefits of oaking on the front end. 

Should I stick to my original plan or just do a single unoaked secondary fermentation and use it all as a more delicate cooking wine? If the latter, I'll end up with 27-29 bottles of cooking wine, which will potentially sit for quite some time before I burn through it. Will bypassing the oak reduce it's longevity?


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## Boatboy24

@FlavorSeeker: I think it depends on when you rack to secondary. Racking earlier (say, around 1.020) will still give you a fair amount of fermentation time on that oak. If you waited until 1.000 or less, maybe not so much.


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## FlavorSeeker

I took a gravity reading this morning; primary has finished (.998). I'm racking to secondary today. Unless anyone highly-recommends otherwise, I plan to oak three gallons and leave the other three unoaked. I'm not a huge fan of Chardonnay, this batch is just to give me a stock of cooking wine, but I'm skeptical about keeping the better part of 30 bottles on hand, for fear that not palming it will lead to spoilage in the longer-sitting bottles. I guess, even with some spoilage, I'd still be ahead, compared to PA LCB Store pricing. I don't cook with a wine I wouldn't drink (like the "cooking wine" sold at the grocery store or the discount wines at the state store), but I hate paying $9-12 for a wine I'm expressly buying as an ingredient, knowing I can make it for 10-20% of that price.


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## richmke

Sauvignon Blanc is a more generic white wine for cooking. But, since you have made Chardonnay, you might as well use that.

I don't see that oaking will make that much difference for cooking use.

In any case, I'd oak in the secondary.


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## FlavorSeeker

Yes; the guy at my LHBS recommended these two options and went with my known. Since then others recommended SB and I've started regretting my choice. Worst case, I'll be able to offer Chardonnay as an option, when we have guests.


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## richmke

I made the WE Eclipse SB for cooking purposes. I've started giving it away to my cooking friends, or people who prefer whites (I exclusively make reds now).

Which WE Chardonnay kit did you make? I might be willing to swap a few bottles.


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## BenK

I'm having a really hard time finding a vendor for light or untoasted oak powder. Anyone have any advice?


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## JohnT

BenK said:


> I'm having a really hard time finding a vendor for light or untoasted oak powder. Anyone have any advice?


Try oak cubes instead.


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