# Fermentation oak chips...



## Bmd2k1 (Oct 23, 2021)

Looking for some insight/feedback on the use of oak chips during fermentation & whether the end vino will have much difference depending on the type (American/French/Hungarian) & toast used. Focusing on chips for this discussion...

Thanks & Cheers!


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## cmason1957 (Oct 23, 2021)

Chips give up mostly tannins and do so very fast, since they are only in during primary fermentation, usually. They don't add much, if any, oak flavors. As such, I don't belive there is much difference between American/ French/ Hungarian.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 24, 2021)

Last fall I used shredded medium toast French and American oak for fermentation. For 2 batches of Merlot, I used American in one and French in the other. There was a difference in taste that was obvious at the end of fermentation. We preferred the American -- the French had a bit of a sour taste.

This fall I'm using all American.


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## Mario Dinis (Oct 25, 2021)

I use French chips, but not during fermentation.


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## verdot (Oct 25, 2021)

You will have more control over the amount of oak when you have completed primary fermentation and have the ability to rack the wine off the oak when it’s to your taste. Different oak chips will have subtle differences depending on location, but the biggest difference is that they are chips and not a barrel, and it’s easy to over do it and impart too much primary oak flavor / tannin with chips, powder and cubes.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 25, 2021)

Keep in mind that fermentation and aging oak have very different purposes and effects upon the wine. As @cmason1957 said, fermentation oak provides tannin. This is called "sacrificial tannin" as a lot drops with the gross lees, leaving the natural grape tannin in suspension, which provides more body to the wine. Aging oak is more about flavoring the wine.

In my last post I mentioned that American and French fermentation oak produced a flavor difference. While the wines were clearly different immediately after fermentation, I don't believe that after bulk aging there would be that much difference. I wish I had kept separate samples so I could state conclusively, but I didn't.

IME, aging oak makes a large difference, but fermentation oak much less.


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## Rembee (Oct 25, 2021)

I recently have been doing a lot of research on fermenting with oak chips. Throughout my research I've discovered that the use of oak chips in the active ferment helps the longevity of the wines color, lends tannins to the wine and can improve the flavor of the final wine by removing vegetal aromas, reducing astringency, and enhancing the fruit and smoothness.


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## Khristyjeff (Oct 26, 2021)

From @winemaker81 "This fall I'm using all American."

Heck ya!


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## Rembee (Oct 26, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> "This fall I'm using all American."


Remember this Jeff, it really doesn't matter which oak chips you use during fermentation. It will not lend any oak flavor to the wine.
For oak flavor, add your oak to the bulk aging where it will sit for 1 to 2 months until it meets your taste requirements.


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## Khristyjeff (Oct 26, 2021)

Rembee said:


> Remember this Jeff, it really doesn't matter which oak chips you use during fermentation. It will not lend any oak flavor to wine.
> For oak flavor, add your oak to the bulk aging where it will sit for 1 to 2 months until it meets your taste requirements.


Thanks. Learning a lot from this site in short order.


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## Venatorscribe (Oct 27, 2021)

Rembee said:


> I recently have been doing a lot of research on fermenting with oak chips. Throughout my research I've discovered that the use of oak chips in the active ferment helps the longevity of the wines color, lends tannins to the wine and can improve the flavor of the final wine by removing vegetal aromas, reducing astringency, and enhancing the fruit and smoothness.


Cheers for that posting. That is the way I have been thinking …


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## Venatorscribe (Oct 27, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> From @winemaker81 "This fall I'm using all American."
> 
> Heck ya!


It’s a bit more than sharp old boy. Brutal in fact. Ok during initial fermentation but it can become quickly astringent at latter stages. Unless you cut down the exposure time


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## MHSKIBUM (Dec 19, 2021)

All the talk is about French vs American toasted white oak. Given the price of just a few ounces of packaged oak, any advice on whether I can toast some good old Canadian white oak to flavour reds during bulk aging. I do some woodwork and have pounds and pounds of white oak in chunks, slivers and small boards that usually get pitched onto the garbage bin.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 19, 2021)

MHSKIBUM said:


> All the talk is about French vs American toasted white oak.


Wikipedia states that there is one species of white oak in North America, Quercus Alba. So Canadian and American oak are the same species. I don't rely on Wikipedia for accurate details, but it's a good starting place and this is a generality so it's probably accurate.



MHSKIBUM said:


> I do some woodwork and have pounds and pounds of white oak in chunks, slivers and small boards that usually get pitched onto the garbage bin.


Oak for winemaking is aged, typically 1.5 to 3 years old. You won't get the same result using fresh oak. Put your waste oak someplace warm and dry for a couple of years, then toast it.


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## Mike - Next Level Oak (Dec 19, 2021)

MHSKIBUM said:


> All the talk is about French vs American toasted white oak. Given the price of just a few ounces of packaged oak, any advice on whether I can toast some good old Canadian white oak to flavour reds during bulk aging. I do some woodwork and have pounds and pounds of white oak in chunks, slivers and small boards that usually get pitched onto the garbage bin.



You sure could! Like winemaker81 said, it's best to age it a minimum of 1.5 years. I know some stave mills that kiln dry their staves to speed the drying up. Also, I'd imagine it would be really similar to American oak but there is a cooperage that advertises having Canadian oak.

Good luck and the smell is going to be amazing if you decide to try it out!

Edit: you could toast the oak now but you probably won't get the best result without seasoning it. Be ready for people to ask what kind of cake you're baking when you toast it!


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## MHSKIBUM (Dec 19, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Wikipedia states that there is one species of white oak in North America, Quercus Alba. So Canadian and American oak are the same species. I don't rely on Wikipedia for accurate details, but it's a good starting place and this is a generality so it's probably accurate.
> 
> 
> Oak for winemaking is aged, typically 1.5 to 3 years old. You won't get the same result using fresh oak. Put your waste oak someplace warm and dry for a couple of years, then toast it.


Thanks so much for the info about aging oak for 1.5 to 3 years. I'm sure I've got a piece at least 3 years old that's been kept warm and dry. Another question: I can break it up into chips/chunks, or use a planer to create long, thin slivers, or saw it into pencil size bars. Don't know how they make those curlycue shapes. Probably a by-product from making furniture. Any thoughts on the shape I use should and how long should I leave the oak in my bulk aging wine? Is it a matter of constantly tasting? I'm looking for a vanilla-butter flavouring.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 19, 2021)

MHSKIBUM said:


> I can break it up into chips/chunks, or use a planer to create long, thin slivers, or saw it into pencil size bars.


Instead of shape, think in terms of surface area. Dust, shredded, and chips are used most often for fermentation oak as the finer pieces have more surface area to interact with the wine during the short fermentation period. Chips, cubes, staves, spirals, and *Mike's product* have less surface area, and require more time to impart oak flavoring to the wine.

Regarding duration, read through my *oak stix experiment*. I provide some background on the common oak adjuncts, plus my tasting notes may provide you with an understanding how wine changing while aging on oak. The taste testing was a real eye-opener for me and my son. We got results, month-by-month, that we did not expect.

What shape(s) to use is a trade-off of simplicity vs. ease of use. Staves, spirals, and Mike's product are each to get into the wine, and easy to get out. Cubes and chips go in easy, but you need some type of container else you'll have to rack the wine to get them out.

If it were me? For aging oak, I'd go with pencil-sized rectangles as they'll be easier to use AND you have less waste wood. I'd use all the dust, chips, and small pieces for fermentation. If you need more fermentation oak, run a plank repeatedly through a table or bandsaw to make dust and small strips, or use a planer.


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