# Barolo No like



## ez2cy (Nov 20, 2013)

Made a Barolo. Finished and has been bulk aging for last 6 months in Carboy. (do it will all my wines).

I just don't like the taste of this wine. Never made it, never bought a bottle first. (Sister in law's idea to make this one)

Now, anything I might mix it with to smooth it out?

I'm a big fan of Amarone, Malbec etc. Mostly make higher end kits ie Cellar Craft with the grapes in it.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.


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## Geronimo (Nov 20, 2013)

Which kit was it?

It usually takes a year before it opens up. It's the "king of wines" so you have to give it the time it requires. A decent Barolo is an awesome experience IMO.


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## Deezil (Nov 20, 2013)

Most that I've read about, take ~2 years to be "drinkable" and 4 years to be something more elegant.... 6 months isn't really enough time to be a fair judge, even as a kit


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 20, 2013)

ez2cy, 
Before we can make a recommendation, what exactly don't you like about it? personally, I'd start by adding Tannin Riche Extra and let it sit at least 3 more weeks, this will add a real nice level of the astringency that we expect, and it will smooth it out. Like Manley and Geronimo suggested, it may need to age more.
Keep us posted!


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## ez2cy (Nov 20, 2013)

I can't remember what the kit was. 

Not a top of the line one, such as a Cellar Craft with dried grapes etc.

Maybe I should just let it sit. I know I don't drink any of my reds before a year. I just sampled this from the carboy as I was curious. Most I bulk age 8 months to a year and then bottle them.

Thanks for the replies.


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## suecasa (Nov 23, 2013)

*question for pumpkinman*

can you try to explain to me ... 

how can tannin add astringency AND smooth things out at the same time? I like the oak/tannin effect but have a hard time understanding exactly what flavors are resulting from it's use! (sorry .. that may not have made any sense whatsoever!)


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## ibglowin (Nov 23, 2013)

There is more than one post on this forum that says buy a bottle of commercial wine in whatever your making before you spend the $$$ on a kit and end up with 6 gallons of wine you don't like. I wanted to make a Barolo kit when I first started into this hobby/obsession. Then I went out and bought not one but then another Borolo wine. I just did not like that wine (either bottle) and they were not cheap. For that reason I have never made any Borolo kit. I would say like others, give it time. At least a year and 18mo is even better, it might come around. If not you have plenty of "steak marinade".


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## cimbaliw (Nov 23, 2013)

In one of my many blunders, I added raisins and tannins after fermentation was done. Yes, now I know to add them during secondary. At any rate, the blunder turned out quite well, we really enjoy the wine. Body? you bet. Anyway, you could easily portion off a gallon and add 1-3oz raisins and 2tsp dissolved tannins.


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 23, 2013)

Two tsp Tannins?! WOW! What kind of tannins are you using? What brand are you recommending?
Most cellaring and finishing tannins call for approx. 1 gram per gallon of must/wine?


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## sdelli (Nov 24, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> Two tsp Tannins?! WOW! What kind of tannins are you using? What brand are you recommending? Most cellaring and finishing tannins call for approx. 1 gram per gallon of must/wine?



I use Tannin Riche Extra.... Which calls for .3 grams per gallon. Rate of 3/4 tsp= 1 gram 2 tsp sounds about good... 
I also use Tannin Complex.... Calls for .5 gram per gal.... Rate of 1 tsp. = 3 grams a carboy should get about 3 1/2 tsp.

How much do you add?


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 24, 2013)

sdelli, real nice use of different tannins to achieve a nice range of positive characteristics.

My post was more a way to try to figure out which tannins are being used, and I guess at some point, it is non of my business, it isn't my wine; now that adding/using tannins are becoming a natural part of many WMT members wine making process, I really wanted to put an emphasis on the fact that a lot of generic tannin is being used, and although it will add a certain level of mouthfeel and the perception of oak, if specific tannins were used in place of the generic "wine tannin", they could achieve such a greater increase the sensory profile of their wine such as increased structure and mouthfeel, color stabilization, stability, anti-oxidative qualities, and overall complexity, heightened perception of vanillin oak character.

Different Tannins need to be tasted in different concentrations in different wines, for instance, the two tannins that you used work great together: "Tannin Complex, a cellaring tannin -It is particularly useful in wines with up-front fruit or where smooth tannin structure is lacking." This works great with Tannin Riche Extra - a finishing tannin, that is straight from Scott Labs.

I guess the easiest way to explain why using specific tannins is better would be to compare it to using EC-1118 for every wine instead of taking advantage of specific yeasts for various types of wine. 

Sorry for ranting.


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## cimbaliw (Nov 24, 2013)

Actually Pumpkinman, I'm glad you brought this up. I am using the standard LD Carlson oak powder pictured below (image stolen from Joeswine/Julie). After reading your (nicely done) article on tannins yesterday, I'm curious to know which tannin category these would fall into. The rest of the Joeswine thread is here, it calls for 4T of the powder/1 lb raisins. I've tried it and there's no going back.


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## sdelli (Nov 24, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> sdelli, real nice use of different tannins to achieve a nice range of positive characteristics. My post was more a way to try to figure out which tannins are being used, and I guess at some point, it is non of my business, it isn't my wine; now that adding/using tannins are becoming a natural part of many WMT members wine making process, I really wanted to put an emphasis on the fact that a lot of generic tannin is being used, and although it will add a certain level of mouthfeel and the perception of oak, if specific tannins were used in place of the generic "wine tannin", they could achieve such a greater increase the sensory profile of their wine such as increased structure and mouthfeel, color stabilization, stability, anti-oxidative qualities, and overall complexity, heightened perception of vanillin oak character. Different Tannins need to be tasted in different concentrations in different wines, for instance, the two tannins that you used work great together: "Tannin Complex, a cellaring tannin -It is particularly useful in wines with up-front fruit or where smooth tannin structure is lacking." This works great with Tannin Riche Extra - a finishing tannin, that is straight from Scott Labs. I guess the easiest way to explain why using specific tannins is better would be to compare it to using EC-1118 for every wine instead of taking advantage of specific yeasts for various types of wine. Sorry for ranting.



Good info... Thanks. What do you think of LD Carlson tannin? I never used it....


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## Elmer (Feb 5, 2014)

JUst racked my WE Selection Barolo last night.
Took a sip,
I understand that it is only less than a month old, but it was flat and lacking in flavor.
Not at all what I expected.
If this is a full bodied wine, than it has a long way to come into itself.

Hoping some time in a oak barrel can add to its character.


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## Geronimo (Feb 5, 2014)

The LD Carlson generic "wine tannin" (very low cost compared to others) is actually chestnut extract instead of oak. 

I tried some of that, adding a tiny bit to a bottle of low tannin Zinfindel, and decided I wouldn't use it again. It added a "muddy" taste IMO.

I'm still looking for a tannin that adds a bit of bite to the finish. Most of the good ones polymerize to the point that they soften up completely. 

Also, IMO, TanCor Grand Cru and Scott Labs Tannin Riche/Tannin Riche Extra are the best finishing tannins for low to moderate tannin reds.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 5, 2014)

Elmer, 
A little Barolo Background that may help to understand the wine:

You will find many differences between the wines from vineyards in the "Barolo vineyard zone", some more aromatic, fruitier styles, some more tannic, some more complex, and broader-textured. the various "terroirs" will have a big impact on the type of wine that you will end up with, of course the winemaker has the biggest impact on the wine.

Traditionally, to earn the name Barolo, the wine must be aged 36 months, 18 of which are in oak barrels, 18 in bottle, if you are fortunate enough to get a "Riserva", the aging goes up to 62 months, the aging softens up the natural tannins.

Unlike Classic Barolo which required a decade of cellaring to soften the tannins, the push to get wines to market faster has resulted in reduced fermentation and maceration times resulting in less extraction of color or tannin from the skins which produces a wine that is fruitier, less tannic, with reduced body and mouthfeel that is obviously able to be sold and drank much faster. 
This is another reason why fermenting on several lbs of fresh crushed grapes or grape skin packs can help a kit wine, or wine from Juice buckets in a major way.

I don't think that the Kit manufacturers are cold soaking the grapes to extract more color, flavor and tannins, I'd be surprised if the major Kit manufacturers ever see the actually grapes after "scouting" the vineyards, they probably receive the pressed juice and apply their process of balancing and stabilizing the juice before packaging, but this is only my opinion, I don't have any direct knowledge of the process involved to manufacture wine kits.

The wine is very young, as everyone stated this wine has a long way to go before it is ready.

I hope that I didn't bore you.
Tom


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 5, 2014)

> The LD Carlson generic "wine tannin" (very low cost compared to others) is actually chestnut extract instead of oak.
> 
> I tried some of that, adding a tiny bit to a bottle of low tannin Zinfandel, and decided I wouldn't use it again. It added a "muddy" taste IMO.



Jim, I couldn't agree more.
Tom


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## Elmer (Feb 5, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> Elmer,
> A little Barolo Background that may help to understand the wine:
> 
> You will find many differences between the wines from vineyards in the "Barolo vineyard zone", some more aromatic, fruitier styles, some more tannic, some more complex, and broader-textured. the various "terroirs" will have a big impact on the type of wine that you will end up with, of course the winemaker has the biggest impact on the wine.
> ...




Tom,
Never a bored when I get educated.
Thanks for info.
I did throw some dried grape skins in to this mix. It was thier second use, so dont know how effective they were!
I thinkg I am going to run this thru my new barrel first. Maybe 5 weeks, then age for another year in a bottle.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 5, 2014)

Real nice plan!!!


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## Wade E (Feb 7, 2014)

I love a good Barolo but I have to say when I first started I had bought a cheap rjs Barolo and it was so crappy I gave the whole batch to someone who didnt care what it tasted like with the exception of about 2 bottles for cooking with. It was like you said flat and watery and was not anywhere near what a Barolo should be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Geronimo (Feb 7, 2014)

I'd say the same thing about most of those $50 commercial bottles of Barolo. I've never had the $600-$1000 examples, but I'm guessing they are the reason people rave about this wine. 

I just got the Meg Barolo kit (thanks to Wade's review of the wine). The kit is over $200, but still... when you do the math, complete with bottle and closure it's under $8 a bottle. Throwing down $8 at the local best wine shop will get you a decent Sauvignon Blanc and little else.


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## Wade E (Feb 7, 2014)

The bottle I had of that Meg was not played with at all and directions were followed to a T. It was aged approx 2 years. I didnt make this kit, a friend of mine did who used to admin finevinewines forum before I took it over and his name was Scott but Masta was his username. It was also before they had the grapeskins in them so this may possibly be even better now!


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## Elmer (Feb 13, 2014)

Gave my Barolo another try.
And upon reconsideration
It is not too bad. I am happier with it this week than last!
I can taste that potential flavors hiding underneath. There was a fruit and peppery flavor, but it is largely subdude.
I am hoping an oak barrel and time will bring all the goodness out!


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## ez2cy (Feb 17, 2014)

Ok......read somewhere that wine ages ?faster, ?better in the bottle. ????

wine is now around 9 months in carboy. Should I leave for the year? Bottle now? 

Also, I read about something I can put in the wine to make sure it keeps longer....a tsp of ???? Some chemical?

And stupid question. I know about tannins in red wine,,,,,,but not really..LOL. What would adding tannins do exactly.

Thanks in advance and for past replies.


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## Geronimo (Feb 17, 2014)

ez2cy said:


> Ok......read somewhere that wine ages ?faster, ?better in the bottle. ????



I read that somewhere, too. The problem is, with that logic, a tank load of wine wouldn't age at all! I bulk age for clarity and to drop wine diamonds, then bottle.


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## ez2cy (Feb 17, 2014)

Wine diamonds?


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## Geronimo (Feb 17, 2014)

Excess tartaric acid precipitates as potassium bitartrate crystals, sometimes referred to as "wine diamonds". If you cold stabilize, they'll drop out nicely for you. That way you won't have to deal with them if/when they form in the bottle. They come out looking like little flakes or a gritty/sandy gunk. They are harmless, but you don't want anyone to get them in the bottom of their glass.

In the "old school", wine diamonds were considered a very positive attribute, as it was said only the finest wines would drop them.


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## ez2cy (Feb 18, 2014)

So it's not something I add to the wine to make it better.


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## Pumpkinman (Feb 18, 2014)

Make sure that you stabilize the wine with meta, depending on the wine, oak, and tannins if needed.


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## ez2cy (Feb 18, 2014)

Pumpkinman said:


> Make sure that you stabilize the wine with meta, depending on the wine, oak, and tannins if needed.



This something other than what comes in kits?


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## tonyt (Feb 18, 2014)

Elmer said:


> JUst racked my WE Selection Barolo last night.
> Took a sip,
> I understand that it is only less than a month old, but it was flat and lacking in flavor.
> Not at all what I expected.
> ...



Elmer, I feel your pain. I started the 2012 WE LE Nebbiolo (Barolo) with skins several six months ago. I racked into my one year old barrel last weekend for a three month stent. I gave it a taste, NOT IMPRESSED! Thin, flat and uninteresting. No oak taste, no tannin, poor viscosity. This one will get lots of attention over the next three months. I have added 2 ounces of medium French oak cubes to the one year old Hungarian barrel. I'll give that a month and taste again. At that time if needed I will add some Tancor Grand Cru tannin. I will add a couple or three ounces of glycerin just prior to bottling if it's still too thin. Tim V's promo says this opens up at six months and will improve to 18 months and hold to five. We'll see. I expected a lot more from this LE kit w/skins. Be assured though that it will be delicious before it goes into bottles.


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## Geronimo (Feb 18, 2014)

Wow the Barolo kits I've started (3 now) are all very high in tannin and good body. All 3 are MM kits, one is a Meg. 

I do have one issue with the Megioli kit; the 23L juice and grape pack barely fit in a 7.9 gallon fermenter. Unless you have a 10 gallon fermenter, I'd pass on the grape pack and go with the raisins.


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## Elmer (Feb 19, 2014)

tonyt said:


> Elmer, I feel your pain. I started the 2012 WE LE Nebbiolo (Barolo) with skins several six months ago. I racked into my one year old barrel last weekend for a three month stent. I gave it a taste, NOT IMPRESSED! Thin, flat and uninteresting. No oak taste, no tannin, poor viscosity. This one will get lots of attention over the next three months. I have added 2 ounces of medium French oak cubes to the one year old Hungarian barrel. I'll give that a month and taste again. At that time if needed I will add some Tancor Grand Cru tannin. I will add a couple or three ounces of glycerin just prior to bottling if it's still too thin. Tim V's promo says this opens up at six months and will improve to 18 months and hold to five. We'll see. I expected a lot more from this LE kit w/skins. Be assured though that it will be delicious before it goes into bottles.



it is drinkable now, just not what I would expect from the "king of wines", but time is my friend!

My kit was a 16 L, with no Skins. So I used a left over merlot skins that I had used in my super tuscan.
Since this was my only non skin kit I have sitting around, I made a point of running through my barrel 1st. I figured getting a ton of oakiness to it and letting sit in a bottle for a year will hopefully do something.
Otherwise I am due to go buy some hungarian oak cubes for a Pinot I have aging and I will add that as well. ( if the barrel does not work)


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 19, 2014)

Sorry to bud in here and I'm not an expert on kits but those wines are big bold reds that are typically high in tannins and really do require a few years on oak. I'm definitely going to try it at some point but I'd like to wait to have a barrel. I'm sure it's normal that these ones do not taste like what you'd expect right off the bat because it's the oaking that brings out the characteristic flavours and aromas. 


Carolyn


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## ez2cy (Feb 19, 2014)

Holy crap Batman!

I thought my wines were far better than most around here (which they are) just because I let them age, whereas most drink as soon as done.

But........I am a real amatuer compared to you folks.

Now the questions.

Age in oak barrels? Far better than the Oak dust or chips you get in the kits I would assume.

Do most of you add things to wine kits while making? I'm leaning towards making all my wines from the Cellar Craft (think I have it right) the higher end ones here in Canada. Come with grape pack. Or....is there another kit you folks would recommend in Canada?

I have sitting in glass carboys......All have been filtered and dates are from when they were done and filtered. 

Cellar Craft Showcase Pinot Noir with Saskatoon Berries 5 lbs. 12/13 (made before and it's great)..... 
Barolo 5/13 (can't remember the kit but not an expensive one) 
CC Showcase Malbec 10/13.....
CC Showcase Amarone 9/13..... 
CC Showcase Zinfindel 10/13.....
Bergamis 1/14......
Choc/Rasp Port 1/14.

Now...anything I should be doing to any of the above wines? All I did with any of them is the kit directions and filtered , except the Pinot Noir with the added fresh berries.

Thanks in advance.


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 19, 2014)

Some people say that there is no difference in using oak in carboys vs an oak barrel, however, I personally haven't used the barrels yet. The one difference that I do see, is that you'd have to keep replacing the oak additions every 6-8 weeks because they do quit after that time. 

That's cool that you have wine with saskatoon berries... Can you explain your experience with this? I planted saskatoon berries for the purpose of making wine, but it will be a few years yet before I have fruit. I'd be pushing it to expect berries this summer. What flavours do they impart on the wine? Have you tried making exclusively saskatoon berry wine? Most kits are designed to be folllowed to the T. The place I get my kits and juices from only gets their stuff direct from their winery supplier (no big box name brands except for the rjs company for ports and orchard breezin kits). Other stores have those kits but I'm happy getting juices and kits from my local place. They manage to get juices from Italy as well as their main supplier in CA (US)


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## ez2cy (Feb 19, 2014)

Can not remember the flavours but remember it was good and everyone liked it. It was actually a recipe in a wine book. Take the red wine kit and add the berries is all. Not sure if you are familar with Saskatoons other than planting them. I am a westerner where Saskatoon's are king. I lived in Ptbo for 27 years and we had berry farm there and grew Saskatoon's. Not so knowing about the berries in Ontario. Toon's have a nutty almondy flavour, that is why I used a Pinot Noir


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## Geronimo (Feb 19, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> Some people say that there is no difference in using oak in carboys vs an oak barrel, however, I personally haven't used the barrels yet. The one difference that I do see, is that you'd have to keep replacing the oak additions every 6-8 weeks because they do quit after that time.



Well, I know there is at least ONE big difference... aging in glass with oak chips, staves or cubes will result in virtually no evaporation and no oxygen incursion. Barrels, on the other hand, have plenty of both.


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## ez2cy (Feb 19, 2014)

So the wines above...should I be putting some oak in the carboys while they sit? Even with having oak in the fermantation part?


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't agree with that... You would still have that level of slow oxidation in glass. If I were to age for 2-3 years it would maybe be in barrels.


Carolyn


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 20, 2014)

I think the agreeable area would be that maybe more oxygen and c02 Surface area


Carolyn


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 20, 2014)

I am not saying i don't agree! Can't wait to try barrels! Lil


Carolyn


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## Geronimo (Feb 20, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> I don't agree with that... You would still have that level of slow oxidation in glass. If I were to age for 2-3 years it would maybe be in barrels.



It's not that aging doesn't occur in glass, but when evaporation takes place like it does in a barrel, air is pulled into the barrel. I don't see any noticeable evaporation in a 6 gallon glass carboy. In a barrel you can plan on losing 5% per year. The air space created by the loss is called ullage. Barrel aging doesn't impart a lot of oak character over the years (only at the beginning), it's the breathing and oxidation that makes it different. If you don't top up the barrels, you'll end up with the wine going bad on you.


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## tonyt (Feb 20, 2014)

Yep, what Geronimo said.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Wine Making mobile app


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## ibglowin (Feb 20, 2014)

There is no comparison between a wine aged in a barrel and one that has spent its entire life in glass. Let me repeat, no comparison. Kit wines (reds needless to say) especially benefit from the concentration through evaporation and the controlled oxidation. Neither of which happens in a glass carboy even with an airlock. I made kit wines for a few years and then switched over to fresh grapes. The last kit wines that are now approaching 3 years in the bottle and spent ~ 6 months in a Vadai Barrel are the first kit wines I have actually contemplated sending in to a competition. The others were not worthy IMHO. These were all the highest ultra premium kits and most were Limited Release kits.


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## ez2cy (Feb 20, 2014)

Don't mean to seem like a nag...but.....LOL

CAn someone tell me if I should be doing something with these wines in the carboys.......put oak chips in them.....stablilze with???? 

Thanks for your replies thus far. Interesting and educational.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 20, 2014)

ez2cy said:


> Don't mean to seem like a nag...but.....LOL
> 
> CAn someone tell me if I should be doing something with these wines in the carboys.......put oak chips in them.....stablilze with????
> 
> Thanks for your replies thus far. Interesting and educational.





Pumpkinman said:


> ez2cy,
> Before we can make a recommendation, what exactly don't you like about it? personally, I'd start by adding Tannin Riche Extra and let it sit at least 3 more weeks, this will add a real nice level of the astringency that we expect, and it will smooth it out. Like Manley and Geronimo suggested, it may need to age more.
> Keep us posted!





cimbaliw said:


> In one of my many blunders, I added raisins and tannins after fermentation was done. Yes, now I know to add them during secondary. At any rate, the blunder turned out quite well, we really enjoy the wine. Body? you bet. Anyway, you could easily portion off a gallon and add 1-3oz raisins and 2tsp dissolved tannins.



I would suggest adding the tannins that Pumpkinman recommended, and see how that goes. I would also consider cimbaliw's suggestion of raisins, or perhaps glycerine instead.


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## ldmack3 (Feb 20, 2014)

If you followed the kit directions they will be good and have everything in them you need.
The other suggestions/ideas to make them better will depend on what you prefer. 
Experiment.


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## tonyt (Feb 20, 2014)

ez2cy said:


> Made a Barolo. Finished and has been bulk aging for last 6 months in Carboy. (do it will all my wines).
> 
> I just don't like the taste of this wine. Never made it, never bought a bottle first. (Sister in law's idea to make this one)
> 
> ...



It's six months old, you have never tasted Barolo but now know perhaps you don't prefer Barolo. Your sister-in-law requested/suggested it. You like fruiter/smoother wines. Tannin will not make it more smooth, I would add 4 ounces of glycerin and or 2-4 ounces of simple syrup to taste and bottle. Taste again in six to twelve months, if you still don't like give it all to your sister-in-law.


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## JohnT (Feb 20, 2014)

ez2cy said:


> Holy crap Batman!
> 
> 
> Age in oak barrels? Far better than the Oak dust or chips you get in the kits I would assume.


 
EZ, I have written an article about oak. Give this a read and let me know if you have and additional questions...


http://www.winemakingtalk.com/take-on-oak.html


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## ez2cy (Feb 20, 2014)

tonyt said:


> It's six months old, you have never tasted Barolo but now know perhaps you don't prefer Barolo. Your sister-in-law requested/suggested it. You like fruiter/smoother wines. Tannin will not make it more smooth, I would add 4 ounces of glycerin and or 2-4 ounces of simple syrup to taste and bottle. Taste again in six to twelve months, if you still don't like give it all to your sister-in-law.



Maybe a stupid question but would this just not make it a sweeter wine? Like dry, not sweet. Sorry if I'm an idiot...LOL


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## tonyt (Feb 20, 2014)

You said it needed to smooth out. That tells me you find it a bit harsh. That could be tannic, alcohol and/or simple youth. For me glycerin in small doses with or without simple syrup makes young tannic wines more approachable (smooth) earlier. If that Barolo ages three years or so in bottle I'll bet it's delicious to folks who like Barolo. I often add tannin to my big red wines and then soften them with the glycerin and or syrup. The syrup fades in time as the tannins mellow on their own. I believe this gives me the best of both worlds, a drinkable wine at one year in bottle and a excellent wine at two plus years in bottle. MANY here wouldn't get within 50 yards of a bottle of glycerin. But of the several here that have tasted my wine none have suggested that the glycerin gave them an off taste. And if it did I really wish they would have said so. I share my wine with anyone hoping for honest appraisal and suggestions. 

Keep in mind that we will never make a Barolo into an Amarone (well Joeswine probably could) and Barolos often take forever to become approachable. EZ, I don't know in what part of the country you live but it would be useful if a local winemaker could barrel taste your Borolo and offer advise. I actually overnight-ed a taste of one of my wines to a certain moderator who lives in New Mexico for emergency advice. Sometimes extraordinary steps are required. With that said only take my advise at your own risk. There are far smarter and more experienced winemakers on this forum than me.


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 20, 2014)

Yes I can see the point made obviously of better breath ability of barrels... So gas exchange would be be better. But it just seems a bit much for the home winemaker to have a bunch of barrels going.... I'm going to try it but these barrels better not have the same habit as carboys around here!


Carolyn


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## Deezil (Feb 20, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> I'm going to try it but these barrels better not have the same habit as carboys around here!



So we should wait until after you get the first one, to break the news to you?


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## tonyt (Feb 20, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> I'm going to try it but these barrels better not have the same habit as carboys around here!
> Carolyn



We have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 20, 2014)

That dumb habit of multiplying lol! This is going to take up room!


Carolyn


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## Geronimo (Feb 21, 2014)

> but these barrels better not have the same habit as carboys around here



You haven't built a warehouse and wine cellar yet? Let us know when you start shopping for a forklift.


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## ez2cy (Feb 21, 2014)

JohnT said:


> EZ, I have written an article about oak. Give this a read and let me know if you have and additional questions...
> 
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/take-on-oak.html



Good article, ty

If you were adding chips to these carboys, how long would you leave them in?

They had oak chips or powder in the kit as I said but that was in the first stage of fementation, which I've always questioned.


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## Geronimo (Feb 21, 2014)

Powder is meant for primary fermentation (it reacts in a matter of hours or a couple days). The active yeast change the outcome of oak contact. If I'm given 2 packs of toasted oak chips, I usually opt for one in primary and one in secondary. The larger oak cubes (sometimes called beans) will continue to benefit the wine for 2-3 weeks and belong in secondary. Staves and spirals go for 3-4 weeks. Oak barrels usually go neutral after 6-8 weeks. 

Be very careful with a new 23L barrel. I've heard of people having to blend an overly oaked batch with another batch to make the outcome reasonable. Small barrels have a larger surface area per liter, and therefore most people "break in" their barrel with a batch for just 1 week, then another for 2 weeks, and finally a 3rd batch for extended aging.


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## sdelli (Feb 22, 2014)

ckvchestnut said:


> Yes I can see the point made obviously of better breath ability of barrels... So gas exchange would be be better. But it just seems a bit much for the home winemaker to have a bunch of barrels going.... I'm going to try it but these barrels better not have the same habit as carboys around here!
> 
> 
> Carolyn




Funny.... But unfortunatly they do! Once you start down this road there is no returning......


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## ckvchestnut (Feb 22, 2014)

Ya that's why I'm procrastinating!


Carolyn


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## cocroach (Feb 22, 2014)

tonyt said:


> You said it needed to smooth out. That tells me you find it a bit harsh. That could be tannic, alcohol and/or simple youth. For me glycerin in small doses with or without simple syrup makes young tannic wines more approachable (smooth) earlier. If that Barolo ages three years or so in bottle I'll bet it's delicious to folks who like Barolo. I often add tannin to my big red wines and then soften them with the glycerin and or syrup. The syrup fades in time as the tannins mellow on their own. I believe this gives me the best of both worlds, a drinkable wine at one year in bottle and a excellent wine at two plus years in bottle. MANY here wouldn't get within 50 yards of a bottle of glycerin. But of the several here that have tasted my wine none have suggested that the glycerin gave them an off taste. And if it did I really wish they would have said so. I share my wine with anyone hoping for honest appraisal and suggestions.
> 
> Keep in mind that we will never make a Barolo into an Amarone (well Joeswine probably could) and Barolos often take forever to become approachable. EZ, I don't know in what part of the country you live but it would be useful if a local winemaker could barrel taste your Borolo and offer advise. I actually overnight-ed a taste of one of my wines to a certain moderator who lives in New Mexico for emergency advice. Sometimes extraordinary steps are required. With that said only take my advise at your own risk. There are far smarter and more experienced winemakers on this forum than me.



TonyT, I'm curious to know what brand of glycerine you are using? I wouldn't mind switching if there'a a better alternative to what I have, which did produce a slight aftertaste. The one I have is from Global Vintners Inc.


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## tonyt (Feb 22, 2014)

It's I D Carlson. I get it from Fine Vine Wines but lots of folks should have it.

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## cocroach (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks Tonyt. I'll have to keep an eye out for other brands. I don't think LD Carlson is available in Canada and Fine Vine Wines unfortunately doesn't ship here.


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## vernsgal (Feb 22, 2014)

cocroach said:


> Thanks Tonyt. I'll have to keep an eye out for other brands. I don't think LD Carlson is available in Canada and Fine Vine Wines unfortunately doesn't ship here.



I use Spagnols glycerine (I'm in BC) also if you have a Michaels close by they sell glycerine made by Wilton. You could also try ordering online dirrect from Wilton.com
My 2 cents on using it though is- careful on the amount you use. It not only changes the body but it also changes the mouthfeel


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## cocroach (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks Kim! Good to know!


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## cintipam (Feb 23, 2014)

Has anyone actually used the Wilton glycerine? I'm curious since its a product meant for baking.

Pam in cinti


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## vernsgal (Feb 23, 2014)

cintipam said:


> Has anyone actually used the Wilton glycerine? I'm curious since its a product meant for baking.
> 
> Pam in cinti



I've used the Wilton glycerine. 
as long as it's food grade glycerine they're all about the same.It's usually vegetable based.


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## cintipam (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks Kim. Good to know. Hubby and I occasionally troll Hobby Lobby as we both have weird hobbies that we can get parts for there. I'll check out the Wiltons glycerine.

Pam in cinti


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## Elmer (Mar 29, 2014)

Tried my Barolo again, to see if it needs any adjustment prior to bottling.
Have to say at about 3 month what I like the most is the oak imparted from time in the oak barrel.

Otherwise it has nowhere near come into its own.
There is potential there, just going to take time.


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## ez2cy (Mar 30, 2014)

Elmer, is your wine just 3 months in total?

I haven't tried mine again, just sitting in the carboy. I'm at 8 months I think. (have to look at label)


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## Elmer (Mar 30, 2014)

ez2cy said:


> Elmer, is your wine just 3 months in total?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't tried mine again, just sitting in the carboy. I'm at 8 months I think. (have to look at label)




Yes 3 months . Started around beginning of January.
It is clear, spent 3 weeks in oak barrel.
Now just aging in a 5 gallon carboy.

I was going to bottle and free up some carboy space.
Not sure I will add any more tweaks, just want to allow it an opportunity to come into its own.


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## sdelli (Mar 30, 2014)

Elmer said:


> Yes 3 months . Started around beginning of January.
> It is clear, spent 3 weeks in oak barrel.
> Now just aging in a 5 gallon carboy.
> 
> ...




Three weeks not really very long for barrel time! Is this the first run on the barrel? You really need at leat 3 months to feel the effct of the barrel at min...


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## Elmer (Mar 30, 2014)

sdelli said:


> Three weeks not really very long for barrel time! Is this the first run on the barrel? You really need at leat 3 months to feel the effct of the barrel at min...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making




It was the the barrels first run and I left it in a week longer than intended.
It got very super oaky, which has since died down.

But my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong is that Barolo is supposed be somewhat fruitiah flavor to it instead of a smokey oak (ie: Tuscan or Brunello)?


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## Geronimo (Mar 31, 2014)

Barolo should be (on a scale from 1-5)

full bodied 5
fruity 4 or 5
tannin 5
aroma 4 or 5
oak 3 to 5

Typically described as "intense". If you have a watery, lifeless example of a Barolo (Nebbiolo) then it sounds like the kit maker was LAME! Barolo is often considered Italy's greatest wine. "The king of wines, the wine of Kings"


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## tonyt (Mar 31, 2014)

Elmer
I believe you have a decent inventory of bottled wine. That Bartolo is going to be one of your most important (special) wines. Don't rush to bottle. Give it another three months in carboy and see how the oak acts. Once you bottle you can't go back. Perhaps it's time to buy another carboy.


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## Elmer (Mar 31, 2014)

tonyt said:


> Elmer
> I believe you have a decent inventory of bottled wine. That Bartolo is going to be one of your most important (special) wines. Don't rush to bottle. Give it another three months in carboy and see how the oak acts. Once you bottle you can't go back. Perhaps it's time to buy another carboy.



Thanks for the advice.
I am actually looking at selling of 1 or 2 of my 6's and replacing it with a 5 or 3.

I will leave it in the carboy a while longer.
I have a Pinot noir that is due to be bottled shortly and My tuscan will be 6 months old and ready for bottling out of the barrel!


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## Elmer (Apr 28, 2014)

Just tried to Burrello again at four months old
It was very flat and unimpressive any oak that was in parted by being the first batch in my oak barrel has completely diminished and is on recognizable.

I think I will load up with some Hungarian medium toast oak cubes.

I will give the cubes a try for at least a month and then if need be I will put back in the barrel when I'm done with aging my Brunello.

But worst case scenario it is still drinkable and it is still far far better than any of the 10 L kits I ever made


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 28, 2014)

Hold off on the cubes and give it more barrel time first. Just my two cents.


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## sdelli (Apr 28, 2014)

I agree! This wine has not seen enough barrel time.... After 3 to 4 solid months in a barrel then evaluate.


Sam


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## tonyt (Apr 29, 2014)

Elmer that is all good advice. Give this wine lots more time. Run it back through the barrel maybe not the next round but after whatever goes in the barrel next let it sit for a few months in the carboy then the barrel should be old enough to give this wine 3 or 4 months without over oaking. If there are other winemakers near you it would be a good idea to take a small sample and get a second opinion.


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## SouthernChemist (Apr 30, 2014)

From what I understand, some of the flavors associated with Barolo can take a couple years or so to develop. It can be fairly tannic, too, so extended aging/barrel time would probably go a long way in developing the wine. It's definitely not a wine to drink too early.


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## Geronimo (May 1, 2014)

The OP never told us which kit it was, but in my experience, the 2 Barolos I've made are very tasty and drinkable early... then continue to improve and evolve. I've been unable to find a 'low end' Barolo kit so I can't even guess which kit we've all been talking about. 

The 2 that I've made are both Mosti Mondiale. 1 Meglioli (with the grape pack) and 3x of the Renaissance Impressions (they come with raisins and a grape pack). 

I really wish we knew which kit the OP made.


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## mmadmikes1 (May 5, 2014)

Simple, as never judge a Big Red wine before its time LOLOLOL. Wine Expert makes a low end kit I beleive


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