# High acid juice from New York



## Eric Nicely (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi, first post to this forum. I have four five-gallon buckets of juice from NY, all have TA above 1.0, ranging from 1.09 to 1.19. I haven't tested pH yet, Brix is 21. This is my first encounter with high acid juice. I've considered fermenting, MLF then cold stabilizing, but I don't know if this will bring TA to an acceptable level. I'm considering treating the juice before fermentation with calcium carbonate, but I'd dread doing this. I could dilute it and add sugar, but I'd rather avoid this, too. Juices are Noiret, Corot Noir, Chardonelle and Seyval. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## Wade E (Oct 30, 2009)

With those #'s you may have to adjust the TA before fermentation or you might not even get it started fermenting. Calcium carbonate or Potassium Bicarbonate should bring it down but Id get the rest of the numbers first. What lace sold you these inferior juices. Unlesss they were free or very cheap that place ripped you of and sold you juices from grapes that never really ripened.


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## Manimal (Oct 30, 2009)

I would disagree that these grapes haven't necessarily ripened. Alot of the French Hybrid varieties maintain high TA even when they are as ripe as they're going to get. They can make some decent wine, but they're never going to be as good as vinifera grapes. Also, alot of regions in the Northeast are experiencing high TA this year due to the lack of sunshine during the growing season; so even if Brix levels are acceptable, TA's are still running higher than normal. I would do a modest TA adjustment with Potassium Bicarbonate prior to fermentation. I wouldn't try to drop it too far since regular de-acidification methods favour the reduction of tartaric acid and you want to make sure you don't remove all your tartaric. Honestly, for hybrid varieties, those TA's aren't that bad... I know that Baco Noir here in Ontario often has a TA of 12-15 g/l at full ripeness. High acid is just one of the challenges of working with hybrid varieties.


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## St Allie (Oct 30, 2009)

Manimal?

I've planted predominantly muscat varieties as a trial.. and will be looking to buy a refractometer and actually testing brix and TA.



out of interest? Are these grapes hugely different in comparison to vinifera..

the muscat I have are also touted as acceptable table grapes as well as good dessert wine grapes.

Allie


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## Racer (Oct 31, 2009)

Manimal said:


> I would disagree that these grapes haven't necessarily ripened. Alot of the French Hybrid varieties maintain high TA even when they are as ripe as they're going to get. They can make some decent wine, but they're never going to be as good as vinifera grapes. Also, alot of regions in the Northeast are experiencing high TA this year due to the lack of sunshine during the growing season; so even if Brix levels are acceptable, TA's are still running higher than normal. I would do a modest TA adjustment with Potassium Bicarbonate prior to fermentation. I wouldn't try to drop it too far since regular de-acidification methods favour the reduction of tartaric acid and you want to make sure you don't remove all your tartaric. Honestly, for hybrid varieties, those TA's aren't that bad... I know that Baco Noir here in Ontario often has a TA of 12-15 g/l at full ripeness. High acid is just one of the challenges of working with hybrid varieties.




I agree completely with you Manimal. Another thing that you can do is use 71B22 yeast for these grapes as it also helps consume some malic acid during fermentation.

I have GR-7 and Foch fermenting right now that tested at 11gr. per liter TA, PH 3.4,Brix 21.4º I should have probable used a light dose of calcium carbonate but didn't. I have 71B22 yeast working on the grapes right now. I will do MLF on the grapes and cold stablize in the future. Hopefully the TA will come down enough so additional steps don't have to be taken.

The lack of sun has really hurt this year. Where I got my grapes they have frontenac still at 16 gr. per liter TA and no hope of seeing the numbers change on them(leaf drop is in full swing).


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## Eric Nicely (Oct 31, 2009)

*Thanks for the insight*

Thanks for the thoughts about high acid juice. Manimal's observations are consistent with what I have read about this year's harvest in NY. I will consider reducing the acid somewhat before fermentation, then proceed as planned.


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## Wade E (Oct 31, 2009)

I know this year is very high acid but that doesnt change my mind about it not being that great and should be at a discounted price. It sucks for the grower but I myself would not pay full price for a juice that is not up to par with brix and ph and acid as its a risk for the consumer to get a decent product out of it. If it were a kit in a store or food on a shelf you would either not buy it or expect a price cut right?


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## Manimal (Nov 1, 2009)

St Allie said:


> Manimal?
> 
> I've planted predominantly muscat varieties as a trial.. and will be looking to buy a refractometer and actually testing brix and TA.
> 
> ...



True Muscat are members of the vitis vinifera species, but there are many different types of muscat within . In addition, there are many hybrid varieties that have a vaguely muscat flavour and have therefore been called "muscat" even though they may have very little, if any parentage. An example of this would be New York Muscat.


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## St Allie (Nov 1, 2009)

Thankyou Manimal,

I have planted July muscat and New York muscat..

It's all that is available here.. ideally I would like to buy the orange muscat.. seems I will have to import the stock if I do.. so will see how these fare in aucklands conditions.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Eric!

Allie


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## Manimal (Nov 2, 2009)

Wade E said:


> I know this year is very high acid but that doesnt change my mind about it not being that great and should be at a discounted price. It sucks for the grower but I myself would not pay full price for a juice that is not up to par with brix and ph and acid as its a risk for the consumer to get a decent product out of it. If it were a kit in a store or food on a shelf you would either not buy it or expect a price cut right?



If we were talking about Chardonnay or Cabernet, I would agree completely, however, since we're talking about hybrids, I think that the consumer bears some significant responsibility for their choice. Hybrid varieties are usually available at a considerably lower cost than vinifera, and as long as the grower/vendor hasn't misrepresented the product by providing inaccurate numbers, I think they've done their part. You can definitely make solid wines from hybrids, but even at full ripeness, TA levels can be very high and I would argue that winemakers buying hybrid grapes/juice are accepting the challenges present in the variety they choose. Just my two cents!


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## Wade E (Nov 2, 2009)

Ya know, youn are right but I also must say that a point you must decide if whats availiable is really worth buying. I know hybrids make excellent wines and Ive had quite a few of these myself and was just up there 2 weekends ago in Morrisonville where a friend of mine who also participates here grows many of these and does also works with Cornell on their Cold Hardy Hybrids of which many dont even have names yet and its sad to say but many werent even picked due to not making the grade. That my friend is what i sadly believe should be done when numbers just dont make it where they should be. I know TA's are high but when everything else is out of whack also its time to call it!


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