# Planning for first from grapes wine



## hawkwing (Apr 10, 2022)

I’m planning to make wine from imported grapes this fall. Or at least shipped to my location from wherever they come from since they don’t grow locally. 

I have some questions I could use some help with. 
1) How many grapes do I need to fill a 23L carboy and also a 54L demijohn?
2) What size of primary fermenter do I need for each size. Are 30L and 20 gallon enough?
3) How much stems should I plan to leave in if any?
4) Should I use sulfites to kill everything and are there other benefits such as preserving color from doing so? What happens if I don’t use sulfites?
5) Is Tartaric acid the best if I need to adjust pH/TA?
6) If sugar levels need adjusting should I use table sugar, inverted table sugar or something else?
7) How much should I crush them? I’ll probably do this manually and I probably won’t have a destemmer crusher this first time around. Is there such a thing as too much? Should I just get a big tub and get my kids to stomp on them lol? Starsan their feet lol. 
8) When should I press them? After the grapes sink?
9) What all should I add? Pectic enzyme, additional tannin? 
10) Anything else I’m forgetting? Additional resources etc? It would be good to have a pinned thread with all the info people require for this. 

Thank you everyone for your help!


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## cmason1957 (Apr 10, 2022)

1) 100 lbs of grapes ends up with about 6 gallons (23 l) of finished wine. That's the number I use for planning. 
2) plan for 2-2.5 times fermenter size to finished wine size. I start with 3 20 gallon trash can fermenter and end up with about 4 6 gallon carboys more or less. 
3) I don't worry about numbers of stems, but I deal with hybrid grapes.
4) I always add sulfites at crush time. 
5) Tartaric is the acid to use with grapes.
6) I always just add table sugar.
7) without a crusher/destemmer, all that is really required is to open up the grapes, but I don't think you can overdo it. I used a 4x4 prior to crusher.
8) press when grapes sink or a bit sooner if life makes it impossible to wait. 
9) pectic enzyme or enzymes that break down the grapes are generally a good idea
10) I almost always add some oak chips during fermentation to help set the color and provide sacrificial tannins.


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## hawkwing (Apr 10, 2022)

1) I think they come in 36 lbs cases. 
2) Darn I was hoping that a 20 gal fermenter would be enough for a 54L demijohn.
10) Good call on the oak. Do you add after pressing?


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2022)

I generally agree with C Mason with a couple of minor differences. 

You did not mention what variety of grapes you are using or whether they are red or white.

1. The number of pounds of grapes will required will depend on how juicy the grapes are. If they are plump and full of juice, 14 pounds should yield a finished gallon of wine. If they are on the dryer side, you may need 15-16 pounds per gallon. Sounds like you want to make a little more than 20 gallons so get 9 each 36 pounds lugs.
2. I think you would be safer with 2 each 20-gallon Brutes.
3. Stems can add bitterness to the wine, so you decide. My first job in wine making when I was about 7 or 8 years old was to strip the grapes off of the stems and remove any other debris such as sticks, leaves, etc.
4. There will be wild yeast on the grapes so the metabisulphite will kill the spores. Then you can choose the yeast you want to use.
5. Yes, tartaric acid.
6. Yes table sugar in the form of simple syrup which is a 1:2 ratio by volume of water to sugar, dissolved over low heat. 
7. Crush the grapes so that all berries are broken but try not to crack the seeds. For the quantity you are making and considering you don't have a crusher, you could use a 6-gallon bucket and a 2x4 as a "mortar and pestle."
8. The majority of the grapes won't sink. Rather, they will float to the top of your fermenter and form a cap more than once per day. You need to break up this cap at least 2x per day and stir the skins back into the wine. At the end of the fermentation period, remove the cap to a container and then press this mass however you can. We always segregated the unpressed juice wine from the pressed juice wine, but you may not want to do so.
9. Any additions are difficult to predict until the wine is in process. We never added anything to the wine other than Sodium (and later Potassium) Metabisulfite.
10. Depending on the variety of grape, you could add oak in chip form in primary and cubes in aging. The amount of oak depends on the variety of grape.

Timing and schedule need to be considered. We always made wine in the Fall. The grapes would "come in" in the first or second week of October from California (we were in Pittsburgh). On the day we started, we would crush the grapes into an open fermenter (usually a 53-gallon whiskey barrel with the top removed), add the metabisulphite and stir it well, wait a day or two and add the chosen yeast. Fermentation would begin usually within a day, and we would let the wine ferment until fermentation was very slow (10-14 days) and then transfer the wine to whiskey barrels lying on their sides with the bung open. We would keep the wine in these barrels being sure to have the wine filled in the bung hole until about the first week of December at which time the bung would be put in place and the wine left to age. It was drinkable usually by Easter (4 months or so) but much better by Christmas.


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## hawkwing (Apr 10, 2022)

I was thinking of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot. Possibly Zinfandel not 100% yet. I have two 20 gallon fermenters, two 30 L and 3 winekitz pails. I'm watching for more larger used fermenters.

With 9 lugs would I have to split them between the two 20 gallon fermenters? How much solids are in the grapes?


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2022)

Need clarification. Do you mean you are making either Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot or are you making a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot? If you are making them separately, of course you would put the Cab in one fermenter and Merlot in the other. If you plan to blend them, you could ferment them separately and then blend or co-ferment them with half of the wine in each of two 20-gallon fermenters. 

I am not sure what you mean by "how much solids" but I would guess you would have a little more than half the fermenter with liquid and a grape skin cap of about 2-4 inches on top, which needs to be broken up a couple times a day.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 11, 2022)

Even though it's not ideal I think you are on the borderline with the fermenters. You may just want to have and extra bucket or 2 to remove the excess just incase.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

I was thinking of making each kind separately. I was just thinking that *cmason1957 *said that he uses three 20 gallon fermenters for four 6 gallon carboys. I was hoping that one 20 gallon fermenter would fill one 54L (14.26 gallon) demijohn.

By the solids I was thinking about the cap on top pushing its way out and making a mess. I was watching a video where they were stomping in the port tanks and it looked like a thin layer on top. Looks like there could be benefit to crushing them really well but not crushing the seeds. From the look of the grape crushers they would just flatten them is that correct? I'm sure I could do a better job with a homemade wood stomper possibly with a soft pad to protect from crushing seeds in a pail or pot.

Would the wine be better if all stems were removed? In the video it looked like they put all the bunches with stems in the tank but they must've fished most of them out later after crushing.

I would like to try making a port possibly as well using fortification. I'm not a big dry white wine fan but am interested in possibly a champagne and not sure if it would be possible to simulate an ice wine. However, I think I will start simple this year and do 2-3 kinds namely one or two dry reds and a port style.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

Would heating part of the juice have a negative impact? I'm thinking of adding sugars, without dilution, and trying to invert them. I've never had trouble dissolving sugar without heating, however I've been reading that there is a sharper taste from plain table sugar that is better if it's inverted. That is why I asked about using other sugar sources. Hopefully the grapes are nice and ripe and I won't have to add sugar.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> Even though it's not ideal I think you are on the borderline with the fermenters. You may just want to have and extra bucket or 2 to remove the excess just incase.


Borderline for the 9 lugs that we were hypothetically talking about or to fill a demijohn? For two demijohns I'll need 11-13 36 lbs lugs using 14-16 lbs per gallon. Would 5.5-6.5 lugs (198-234LBS) be too much for a 20 gallon fermenter? I'm watching for more. I picked up a 20 gallon for $20. New they are $80 so I'm watching for used but they don't come up often. I currently probably could spread them out between my stock pots too and make it work.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 11, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Borderline for the 9 lugs that we were hypothetically talking about or to fill a demijohn? For two demijohns I'll need 11-13 36 lbs lugs using 14-16 lbs per gallon. Would 5.5-6.5 lugs (198-234LBS) be too much for a 20 gallon fermenter? I'm watching for more. I picked up a 20 gallon for $20. New they are $80 so I'm watching for used but they don't come up often. I currently probably could spread them out between my stock pots too and make it work.



The majority of us just use Brute trash cans for our fermentation. They are only around $30 new. Another option might be a 32 gallon if you are buying one anyway.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 11, 2022)

I'm on the same page with Craig and Rocky. Some of my calculations are a bit different, but are close enough.

1) How many grapes do I need to fill a 23L carboy and also a 54L demijohn?
I allow for 2.5 lugs to produce 5 gallons, which rounds up to 8 lugs to fill a 54 liter barrel, including topup wine. For a demijohn (no evaporation), 7 lugs is probably fine, but it's better to have a bit too much than a bit too little.

2) What size of primary fermenter do I need for each size. Are 30L and 20 gallon enough?
I use 32 gallon Brutes for fermentation, with 4 lugs in each. A 20 gallon would work, but my initial purchase was to go high, as it's far better to have too much space. 8 lugs will _probably_ fit in a 32 gallon Brute, but ...

... consider the weight -- unless you have a pump, you may need to move your containers. 5 lugs is 180 lbs, 4 lugs is 144. I purchase 16 lugs to fill two 54 liter barrels, fermenting in four Brutes.

The 30 liter fermenter won't safely hold enough grapes to fill a carboy.

4) Should I use sulfites to kill everything and are there other benefits such as preserving color from doing so? What happens if I don’t use sulfites?
While commercial yeasts typically are aggressive enough to beat out all competition, adding K-meta immediately after crushing eliminates most of the competition, making a better initial environment.

6) If sugar levels need adjusting should I use table sugar, inverted table sugar or something else?
I use plain 'ole table sugar, stirring it in gradually.

8) When should I press them? After the grapes sink?
If making a light bodied red, when the SG is below 1.020. If making a full bodied red, when the SG is below 1.000. Some folks seal the container (a bit difficult with Brutes) and do EM.

For your first rodeo, press when the SG drops below 1.000.

9) What all should I add? Pectic enzyme, additional tannin?
Maceration enzymes can make a huge difference. I use ScottZyme ColorPro.

I agree with fermentation tannin -- it stabilizes color and preserves the grape tannin. A lot of folks use chips -- I prefer shredded toasted oak.

Add the enzyme and oak after crushing, before inoculation.

10) Anything else I’m forgetting? Additional resources etc? It would be good to have a pinned thread with all the info people require for this.

Oak cubes for aging. I'd use 1 to 1.5 oz per 5 or 6 gallons of wine. I like cubes over spirals and staves due to price AND configurability. Not only can you easily change the amount used, you can mix-n-match, e.g., 1 oz medium toast Hungarian with 1/2 oz heavy toast American.

Get a small, fine weave straining bag. Use this to wrap your wine thief and racking cane to keep pulp, seeds, and oak out while drawing samples and racking.



mainshipfred said:


> Another option might be a 32 gallon if you are buying one anyway.


A 32 gallon Brute with lid was cheaper than a 20 gallon Brute ... yeah, strange, but I wasn't arguing.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 11, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> By the solids I was thinking about the cap on top pushing its way out and making a mess. I was watching a video where they were stomping in the port tanks and it looked like a thin layer on top. Looks like there could be benefit to crushing them really well but not crushing the seeds. From the look of the grape crushers they would just flatten them is that correct? I'm sure I could do a better job with a homemade wood stomper possibly with a soft pad to protect from crushing seeds in a pail or pot.



You don't need the grapes as mush, just breaking the skins is enough. Some ferments are whole berry in fact. If you have access to a crusher, use it. The cap will get really thick 4 to 6 inches at the start so be prepared.



hawkwing said:


> Would the wine be better if all stems were removed? In the video it looked like they put all the bunches with stems in the tank but they must've fished most of them out later after crushing.


 
No, the wine will not be better with all the stems removed. Stems add tannin; you should remove some and any that are sill green.



hawkwing said:


> I would like to try making a port possibly as well using fortification. I'm not a big dry white wine fan but am interested in possibly a champagne and not sure if it would be possible to simulate an ice wine. However, I think I will start simple this year and do 2-3 kinds namely one or two dry reds and a port style.



Ice wine is made from grapes that have been frozen either on the vine or in a deep freeze. You can try but do some research first.



hawkwing said:


> Would heating part of the juice have a negative impact? I'm thinking of adding sugars, without dilution, and trying to invert them. I've never had trouble dissolving sugar without heating, however I've been reading that there is a sharper taste from plain table sugar that is better if it's inverted. That is why I asked about using other sugar sources. Hopefully the grapes are nice and ripe and I won't have to add sugar.



Yes, heating the juice will have a negative impact, the pectin will set (think grape jelly or jam) and it will harm the flavor. With fresh grapes you should not have to add sugar. If you do, just add the sugar directly to the must. and stir well. Wineries that chaptalize use table sugar (I've seen the bags sitting on pallets in the winery.)


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2022)

@hawkwing 

At my Home Depot here in Columbus, the 32-gallon Brute costs $40.97 and the 20-gallon Brute costs $31.97, both with lids. Whatever cans one uses, be sure they are food safe and have the "NSF2, 21" certification molded into the bottom.

Not sure where the discussion of heating the juice came about but if it was from making simple syrup, of course one cools the syrup before adding it to the wine. I stand behind my recommendation to sweeten with simply syrup rather than raw sugar to assure that all sugar is dissolved.

Whether you strip the grapes from the stems is up to you. It is certainly more work to do so but I think it is worth it to avoid imparting bitterness and affecting the pH of the wine. Research this yourself on some winemaking sites and make your decision.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

Here in Canada a 20 gallon is $43, a 32 gallon is $57 and a 44 gallon is $80 at Home Depot. Not sure if they ever go on sale. 

The heating the juice was to dissolve and invert the sugar without water so as to not dilute the wine. But I do recall the same issue when making cider and it not clearing if pasteurized. I’ve never had trouble dissolving sugar in cold liquid just need to stir a few times. I plan to target 13.5-14.5% ABV like a bottle I’d buy. 

I’ll probably remove most of the stems and certainly the green ones. I’ve been told that I want some though for tannin’s. I think I can always add tannins but harder to take them out. Not even sure how or if I could remove them.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Here in Canada a 20 gallon is $43, a 32 gallon is $57 and a 44 gallon is $80 at Home Depot. Not sure if they ever go on sale.
> 
> The heating the juice was to dissolve and invert the sugar without water so as to not dilute the wine. But I do recall the same issue when making cider and it not clearing if pasteurized. I’ve never had trouble dissolving sugar in cold liquid just need to stir a few times. I plan to target 13.5-14.5% ABV like a bottle I’d buy.
> 
> I’ll probably remove most of the stems and certainly the green ones. I’ve been told that I want some though for tannin’s. I think I can always add tannins but harder to take them out. Not even sure how or if I could remove them.


Wow, that is more than just the exchange rate. HD is screwing you guys!

I understand your reluctance to add water that would dilute the wine. Bear in mind that grapes are 81% water and the amount of water you would add in making 20 gallons of wine would be essentially negligible. Of course, it is your call. 

If you are looking for an ABV in the range you stated, you will need an initial SG of about 1.100 (assuming a final SG of about 0.995). After you crush your grapes, stir the must, wait an hour or two and then pull a sample and take an SG reading. That will guide you on how much additional sugar, if any, is needed. Depending on how sweet the grapes are, you may not need to add anything.

Good luck.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

Ha ha it’s not just Home Depot. Everything is like that. Especially automotive. People used to go down and buy vehicles, RVs boats etc. Pretty much everything is way cheaper down there. 

I’ll have to look up those maceration enzymes and see if I can get them here. Are they mostly for color stability? Just guessing from the name.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2022)

@hawkwing Here is what simply syrup looks like. I always have a jar of it around.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

Rocky said:


> @hawkwing Here is what simply syrup looks like. I always have a jar of it around.
> 
> View attachment 86879


Is your syrup inverted or just regular?


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Is your syrup inverted or just regular?


I suppose it is "just regular." I have to confess ignorance of what inverted sugar is in detail and what its benefits are. From what I have seen on-line, I don't think I would go through the trouble of making inverted sugar. (Did I mention that I was lazy?) I added 8 cups of sugar to 4 cups of water, heated over medium-low heat and stirred until the sugar was dissolved, let it cool and put it in glass jars.


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## hawkwing (Apr 11, 2022)

Rocky said:


> I suppose it is "just regular." I have to confess ignorance of what inverted sugar is in detail and what its benefits are. From what I have seen on-line, I don't think I would go through the trouble of making inverted sugar. (Did I mention that I was lazy?) I added 8 cups of sugar to 4 cups of water, heated over medium-low heat and stirred until the sugar was dissolved, let it cool and put it in glass jars.



I’m not yet sure if I can tell the difference but I might eventually try them both to see. They say if you boil the sugar water with an acid in it for 20 minutes it will break the sucrose down into I believe fructose and glucose. Apparently this saves the yeast from having to do it and it affects the taste. Also one of them supposedly tastes sweeter and one is preferred by the yeast. So apparently it can affect the taste if the yeast goes to tolerance too as there would be more of one kind left. I’m hoping I can’t tell the difference or maybe I shouldn’t try to find out as sometimes ignorance is bliss lol. Being lazy is nice sometimes. 

Do you all wash your grapes? I was thinking of removing bugs and pesticides. What about washing in metabisulfite solution and rinsing before crushing to avoid or reduce the sulfites in the wine?


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## Chuck E (Apr 11, 2022)

Nope, no grape washing for me. De-stem, crush, and ferment.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Do you all wash your grapes? I was thinking of removing bugs and pesticides. What about washing in metabisulfite solution and rinsing before crushing to avoid or reduce the sulfites in the wine?


DO NOT WASH GRAPES! There should not be any bugs (or very many) and pesticides are withheld for a certain period of time before harvest. The period of time depends on the pesticide.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’ll have to look up those maceration enzymes and see if I can get them here. Are they mostly for color stability? Just guessing from the name.


This is from the description on the Scott Labs site:

Scottzyme® Color Pro is a specialty pectinase with protease side-activities. These side-activities are important for helping break down the cell walls of red grapes to gently extract more anthocyanins, polymeric phenols and tannins. This gentle extraction creates wines that are rounder in mouthfeel and bigger in structure, with improved color stability. Wines made with Color Pro tend to have increased tannins, improved clarity and reduced herbaceous or “veggie” character.


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## Scott Simon (Apr 12, 2022)

@hawkwing Where are you sourcing your fresh grapes from at this time of the year?


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## hawkwing (Apr 12, 2022)

Scott Simon said:


> @hawkwing Where are you sourcing your fresh grapes from at this time of the year?


I won’t be getting them until fall.


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## hawkwing (Apr 12, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> DO NOT WASH GRAPES! There should not be any bugs (or very many) and pesticides are withheld for a certain period of time before harvest. The period of time depends on the pesticide.


Is there a negative to rinsing them?


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## VinesnBines (Apr 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Is there a negative to rinsing them?


Yes, water will wash out the sugars (lower the brix) and any residual water may water down the wine. Grapes can absorb the water, hence the lower brix. You may want to sort them to pick out anything you don't want in the crush.

You are perfectly free to wash the grapes but most commercial wineries do not wash grapes.


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## hawkwing (Apr 12, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> Yes, water will wash out the sugars (lower the brix) and any residual water may water down the wine. Grapes can absorb the water, hence the lower brix. You may want to sort them to pick out anything you don't want in the crush.
> 
> You are perfectly free to wash the grapes but most commercial wineries do not wash grapes.



Noted. I am not that concerned anyway.


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Noted. I am not that concerned anyway.


I don't think there is cause for concern unless there is obvious dirt on the grapes. If this is the case, i.e., they have mud on them, spraying with a hose would not do any significant damage.


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## CDrew (Apr 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Would heating part of the juice have a negative impact? I'm thinking of adding sugars, without dilution, and trying to invert them. I've never had trouble dissolving sugar without heating, however I've been reading that there is a sharper taste from plain table sugar that is better if it's inverted. That is why I asked about using other sugar sources. Hopefully the grapes are nice and ripe and I won't have to add sugar.



Don't get too fancy your first year. It's easy to overthink a lot of this. The grapes want to be wine, so it's pretty easy to get the basics right. I #might# recommend just to do a larger amount of one varietal, as opposed to 2 varietals and sort out your processes. It will be easier to keep things topped off and you won't need to worry about whether you mixed things or not.

I do recommend you get a few more carboys of different sizes. It sounds like you have a 14 gallon demijon, and a 5 gallon carboy. I'd get a couple of 3 gallon carboys and three 1 gallon jugs (Carlo Rossi jugs are 4L and widely available). The wine that comes in them can be drunk on a Tuesday night-. You really want some flexibility in case you end up with say 22L of wine for your 23 L carboy. THen you will have far too much head space and your wine will be at risk for oxidation and vinegar formation.

Heating the must is a very bad idea. Other than the pectin problem, it accelerates oxidation and will harm your flavors-think Jam vs fresh grapes. Your yeast will have no problems with table sugar, you don't even need to dissolve it. The process of punching down the cap will mix it more than enough and the yeast will also assist. But with that said, you likely will not need to add any sugar. Yeasts do differ in their ability to metabolize fructose and glucose but for common commercial yeasts this is a non-issue and they can handle sucrose just fine. 

Acid additions are a very good idea if your pH is not where you want it. Use only Tartaric acid (not acid blend), and be careful that it is from natural sources. Synthetic tartaric will have half the molecules in the wrong configuration whereas natural tartaric will all be in the correct L-(+) format you want. Generally if you buy it from a wine supply place it will be correct.

Don't wash the grapes. No need. The bugs and spiders add terrior. Do remove any leaves and most of the stems.

Enzymes are generally an excellent idea. You will get much better color extraction and maybe some flavor too. I use Lallzyme ex or ex-v with good results. I've heard good things about the Color Pro too. I've just never used it.

Regarding fermentors-Hard to beat Brutes. For $40 or so, you can have a basically indestructible, permanent fermentor that can be used for years. I like the white colored brutes. It is easier to tell when they are perfectly clean. This is a significant detail and I recommend you seek out white ones. Home Depot will order them or amazon can deliver them to you. I use the 28 (sometimes described as 30gallon) gallon ones and a couple of 44 gallon ones. Pro tip-put your brutes on a movers dolly (the Harbor Freight ones work great)-much easier to move around and deal with when full.

What are you going to use for a wine press?


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## Rocky (Apr 12, 2022)

The bugs and spiders add terrior. 

Ewwwww!

And if you are a strict Catholic, you cannot drink the wine on Friday!


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## hawkwing (Apr 12, 2022)

CDrew said:


> Don't get too fancy your first year. It's easy to overthink a lot of this. The grapes want to be wine, so it's pretty easy to get the basics right. I #might# recommend just to do a larger amount of one varietal, as opposed to 2 varietals and sort out your processes. It will be easier to keep things topped off and you won't need to worry about whether you mixed things or not.
> 
> I do recommend you get a few more carboys of different sizes. It sounds like you have a 14 gallon demijon, and a 5 gallon carboy. I'd get a couple of 3 gallon carboys and three 1 gallon jugs (Carlo Rossi jugs are 4L and widely available). The wine that comes in them can be drunk on a Tuesday night-. You really want some flexibility in case you end up with say 22L of wine for your 23 L carboy. THen you will have far too much head space and your wine will be at risk for oxidation and vinegar formation.
> 
> ...


I have two 54L demijohns and I can get two more right now for $70 total. But I’m hesitant thinking smaller carboys would be better. I have quite a few 23L carboys and two half size plus a bunch of 160oz jugs which have stuff in them. I can usually find 23L carboys for $15. I think they are $40 new. I just picked up three plus two gallon jugs for $15 all together. 

I just found a 4.7 gallon wine press new in box on Marketplace for $125 that I’m going to pickup tomorrow. I’m going to pass on the $800 one that can take a while 55 gallon barrel at a time. They said they’d hold it for me. It will be nice to have. Up until now I’ve been using my masticating juicer for apples but it’s slow. Takes me 5-6 hours to juice enough apples for a pail. But that’s because whole apples end up plugging it with the skins and cores.


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## Chuck E (Apr 12, 2022)

@hawkwing I use Lallzyme EX-V for grapes. You should be able to get this via mail order.


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## hawkwing (Apr 12, 2022)

Chuck E said:


> @hawkwing I use Lallzyme EX-V for grapes. You should be able to get this via mail order.


I probably can get EX-V and color pro. Is there any significant difference or preference?


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## Chuck E (Apr 12, 2022)

They have small packets at my local supply shop, and Lallzyme has a good reputation. I haven't tried anything else.


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## CDrew (Apr 12, 2022)

Agree that smaller carboys are easier at the amounts you describe. Easier to move, easier to clean and easier to store. Smaller containers are good too when you come up a little short for your larger containers.

Just to sort out your process, you could consider getting some frozen grapes from Wine Grapes Direct and do a 5-10 gallon batch now. You could be drinking it by next fall's harvest and the practice would be invaluable.

Regarding enzymes-I'd consider the Lallzyme ex for your first wine. The reason is, you'll want to drink it early and the ex-v supposedly extracts more tannin, so you might need to age longer before you drink it. I've used both and can't really tell a big difference.

Good luck. By preparing this early you will be fully ready by fall.


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## hawkwing (Apr 12, 2022)

CDrew said:


> Agree that smaller carboys are easier at the amounts you describe. Easier to move, easier to clean and easier to store. Smaller containers are good too when you come up a little short for your larger containers.
> 
> Just to sort out your process, you could consider getting some frozen grapes from Wine Grapes Direct and do a 5-10 gallon batch now. You could be drinking it by next fall's harvest and the practice would be invaluable.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure they will ship to Canada. I will have to look into this option though as there is probably a business that services Canada.


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## tullamore (Apr 13, 2022)

lots good advice given - the biggest is from CDrew - most important - do not get to fancy on your fast batch - start off small - maybe fill up ur 54 litre demi - and may a couple of 23 litres carboys - -or even get some juice and add a few lugs to it 
my biggest advice - is be clean - all the time - always sanitize everything - i get a little over board with it but its worth it - it not u can easily ruin a batch if wine 
i find making wine is never the same from one harvest to next harvest 
as u will learn some grapes will give u better yields than others 
where abouts r u in Canada? i'm in from Ottawa


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## hawkwing (Apr 13, 2022)

I’m from Saskatoon.

What I make will depend on the price in the fall. Hopefully things aren’t crazy then.

I picked up my little wine press. New in box as advertised but has been stored cold for a while I think. The ratchet mechanism is slightly rusty even though it’s galvanized. I’ll have to clean it up. And probably take the grease off the threads. Not sure what kind it is. I have some food grade stuff I use for my pasta machine.


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## tullamore (Apr 13, 2022)

i'm very lucky- i have great supplier from little Italy - we get grapes from lodi cal, el dorado county, russian river, Montsant/Spain and Australia -i also get some must and juice from Niagara on the lake - which has a great cab franc and gamay noir(similar conditions to france) Gewürztraminer,riesling ,Werner (similar condition to germany) and a great pinot gris


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## hawkwing (Apr 14, 2022)

tullamore said:


> i'm very lucky- i have great supplier from little Italy - we get grapes from lodi cal, el dorado county, russian river, Montsant/Spain and Australia -i also get some must and juice from Niagara on the lake - which has a great cab franc and gamay noir(similar conditions to france) Gewürztraminer,riesling ,Werner (similar condition to germany) and a great pinot gris


You are very lucky! I'm still finding places to get them. I know of two and apparently the one has been up for sale so who knows about that. The lady I bought the press from said there was another place and she said before COVID Superstore used to bring them in. She said she'd message me the kind of grapes she recommended and I'll get the name of the other supplier. She's from Italy and told fond stories of her dad and her making wine.


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## hawkwing (Apr 19, 2022)

I just discovered something called malolactic fermentation. Do any of you do this and do you recommend it?


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## CDrew (Apr 19, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I just discovered something called malolactic fermentation. Do any of you do this and do you recommend it?



Yes, it's pretty standard stuff for all red wine.

Lots of good reading about when to do it (search co-inoculation), how to do it, what bacteria to use, how to tell if complete, etc.

To cut to the chase, from personal experience, CH16 never fails, and in my opinion, co-inoculation is preferred over sequential inoculation. Specifically, I add the MLF bacteria within 72 hours of starting fermentation. But read up as it's an interesting topic.


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## hawkwing (Apr 19, 2022)

Rocky said:


> Need clarification. Do you mean you are making either Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot or are you making a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot? If you are making them separately, of course you would put the Cab in one fermenter and Merlot in the other. If you plan to blend them, you could ferment them separately and then blend or co-ferment them with half of the wine in each of two 20-gallon fermenters.
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by "how much solids" but I would guess you would have a little more than half the fermenter with liquid and a grape skin cap of about 2-4 inches on top, which needs to be broken up a couple times a day.


Is blending advised or does it depend on the grapes that year? Would using all one kind of grape be ok or hit and miss depending on the seasonal factors? What are good blends to consider outside of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot?


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## NorCal (Apr 19, 2022)

I do not shy away from blending, but it's sole purpose is to improve the wine. I found doing that through blind tasting is the method that have lead me toward the eventual blend that I really like, versus the one I thought I would like. Check out this thread #BLENDSRULE


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## hawkwing (Apr 22, 2022)

I have a couple new questions. How much metabisulfite should be used when using whole grapes? Also does anyone do anything to assist clearing?


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## winemaker81 (Apr 22, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I have a couple new questions. How much metabisulfite should be used when using whole grapes?


Same as for juice, 1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons. Assume 90 to 100 lbs grapes to produce that much. If you're a bit high or low, it's fine.



> Also does anyone do anything to assist clearing?


It's mixed. Some folks do what kits do, adding bentonite prior to fermentation to help precipitation. Usage of fining agents post-fermentation, varies dramatically. Some do, some don't.

Before using a fining agent, understand the pros and cons. I find this article to be very useful.






Fining Agents - The Australian Wine Research Institute


What is the purpose of using a fining agent? How do I know what fining agents are permitted to be added to my juice or wine? What are some of the most commonly-used fining agents? What is the best way to apply fining agents? If required, which fining agent should I use? If I use […]




www.awri.com.au





Note that the Australian site doesn't discuss kieselsol and chitosan, but this site does:






Fining Agents Cheat Sheet


Your trusted source for wine making information and our wine bottle guide. Our fully stocked warehouse of wine making supplies, wine gifts, and wine accessories allows for quick shipping. Click to shop or search for wine making information.



www.winemakersdepot.com


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## tullamore (Apr 22, 2022)

agree with winemaker81
then every 4 months or so u hit Pot Meta again - and every time u rack - depending what ur aging vessels are 
- all my wines are aged in oak barrels (neutral)
averaging 1- 2 years depending on the size of the barrel
- before it goes into the barrel its sits in demijohn(54 litres) for bout 9 months - 1 year - depending on when MLF is complete 
this giving it some time to clear and its racked 2 times before entering the barrel - 
as for kits i have no clue - never made kits -


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## hawkwing (Apr 22, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Same as for juice, 1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons. Assume 90 to 100 lbs grapes to produce that much. If you're a bit high or low, it's fine.
> 
> 
> It's mixed. Some folks do what kits do, adding bentonite prior to fermentation to help precipitation. Usage of fining agents post-fermentation, varies dramatically. Some do, some don't.
> ...


I’ll have to figure out what’s red wine safe. Thanks.


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## hawkwing (Apr 22, 2022)

tullamore said:


> agree with winemaker81
> then every 4 months or so u hit Pot Meta again - and every time u rack - depending what ur aging vessels are
> - all my wines are aged in oak barrels (neutral)
> averaging 1- 2 years depending on the size of the barrel
> ...


I’m going to have to check if they have potassium meta locally. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it or new there were two different versions.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 23, 2022)

This thread is like opening a can of worms a lot of opinions but as a commercial winemaker some things that I do personally for wines that will help you to make better home wines are as follows.

I highly recommend if you can afford it you get a product called Zymaflore Egide, you do not need to sulfite grapes if you use it it’s a blend of yeasts that do not ferment but colonize a must and prevent oxidation and spoilage due to microbes.

I also recommend cold soaking your grapes for 2-5 days if you can, use dry ice it will chill down the must and turn into carbon dioxide and will actually help to keep oxygen at bay during soaking and keep microbes at bay and help to soften your wine and produce a wine with better body and better integrated tannins.

I also recommend adding opti red in the proper dosage for your volume of wine to help with extracting better color. I also recommend adding yeast nutrients either Fermaid K or Nutristart from Laffort.

What we did at work is take about 20-30% of the grapes leave them whole and on the stems and put them directly into the bottom of the fermentation tanks and then crush and destem the rest of the grapes and add them on top, the grapes below will break open under the weight and during fermentation and we find that it produces a richer and bolder wine we do this with all reds but it is particularly useful with Syrah.

I recommend that no matter which yeast you use you add it to 4-6 ounces of warm water about 80-90 Fahrenheit tops with a dosage of nutrients and let it sit covered for 20-30 minutes before adding to the wine must this helps to activate the yeast and wake it up and it will multiply faster and you will notice fermentation activity much sooner than pitching dry yeast directly into wine must.

Make sure you sanitize and punch down the skins at least 2-3 times a day initially do not let them dry out or they can grow mold, as fermentation slows down decrease how often you punch down the skins.

if you have grapes that are vegetal or slightly green add some oak cubes or chips during primary fermentation this will soften the aggressive vegetal or green flavors some grapes are known for.

I highly recommend that you get a bladder press if you can afford it otherwise use a basket press but go lightly cause skins and seeds will if pressed to hard make the wine bitter and astringent so collect all free run juice and keep it separate from the pressed juice and taste it if the pressed juice is not overly tannic or bitter you can add it to the free run if it is then don’t blend it with the free run juice.

I would highly recommend using Lafforts B7 direct malolactic bacteria it’s about $20 and is very reliable and fast and can be added directly into your wine, I like that it has a higher tolerance of sulfites and ph than other strains and has a higher alcohol tolerance. You can add oak cubes during malolactic as you will get better integration of the oak and the bacteria will cling to the wood and stay in suspension versus falling to the bottom of the tank or carboy.

I’ll finish with if you want a good reliable way to sanitize equipment use Star San.


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## hawkwing (Apr 23, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> This thread is like opening a can of worms a lot of opinions but as a commercial winemaker some things that I do personally for wines that will help you to make better home wines are as follows.
> 
> I highly recommend if you can afford it you get a product called Zymaflore Egide, you do not need to sulfite grapes if you use it it’s a blend of yeasts that do not ferment but colonize a must and prevent oxidation and spoilage due to microbes.
> 
> ...


Lots of information. Thank you. I will have to look into these things and see if I can even get some of them. I suspect it may be challenging.


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## crushday (Apr 24, 2022)

CDrew said:


> To cut to the chase, from personal experience, CH16 never fails, and in my opinion, co-inoculation is preferred over sequential inoculation. Specifically, I add the MLF bacteria within 72 hours of starting fermentation. But read up as it's an interesting topic.


I not only agree with @CDrew, I have co-inoculated red wine must with CH16 dozens of times with success. Like Drew has said, CH16 never fails. It’s amazing. Lodi Wine Labs has a great price, fast shipping and best in class customer service. They call me every time I order to confirm my order and suggest changes if something is out of stock. Amazing.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Lots of information. Thank you. I will have to look into these things and see if I can even get some of them. I suspect it may be challenging.


Some of it yeah, but most of it is available from most winemaking shops. Dry ice is at grocery stores I buy mine in bulk for cheap.


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## hawkwing (Apr 24, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Some of it yeah, but most of it is available from most winemaking shops. Dry ice is at grocery stores I buy mine in bulk for cheap.


I was thinking of the Zymaflore Egide when I said it. Can’t find it yet. Not from a home brew shop anyway. Most of this will be online order and shipping. I can only get the basics here and a few strains of yeast. Beer ingredients are easier to get. We are basically kit wines and country wines. That said it’s not going to stop me if I have to use meta.


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## hawkwing (Apr 24, 2022)

Are there any grapes in particular that are more consistent? What varieties are recommended? I was thinking Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and/or Zinfandel. Not sure if I could get a poor batch and need to blend or if sugar and acid adjustments will be enough to make most wines drinkable? Also I don’t know many varieties and perhaps some are more affordable but still good?


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I was thinking of the Zymaflore Egide when I said it. Can’t find it yet. Not from a home brew shop anyway. Most of this will be online order and shipping. I can only get the basics here and a few strains of yeast. Beer ingredients are easier to get. We are basically kit wines and country wines. That said it’s not going to stop me if I have to use meta.


I know 2 places online


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Are there any grapes in particular that are more consistent? What varieties are recommended? I was thinking Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and/or Zinfandel. Not sure if I could get a poor batch and need to blend or if sugar and acid adjustments will be enough to make most wines drinkable? Also I don’t know many varieties and perhaps some are more affordable but still good?


Cab is consistent, Zinfandel can be a issue as it is prone to stuck fermentations and can be a bit of a problem if you haven’t made much wine from grapes before. Merlot is a good option though.


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## hawkwing (Apr 24, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> I know 2 places online


Would you be so kind to share even in a PM?


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## hawkwing (Apr 24, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Cab is consistent, Zinfandel can be a issue as it is prone to stuck fermentations and can be a bit of a problem if you haven’t made much wine from grapes before. Merlot is a good option though.


What’s different with Zinfandel?


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> What’s different with Zinfandel?


It’s prone to stuck fermentations due to sugar content or nutrients and you can get stalled fermentations quite frequently with Zinfandel.


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## hawkwing (Apr 24, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> It’s prone to stuck fermentations due to sugar content or nutrients and you can get stalled fermentations quite frequently with Zinfandel.


Is it lower or higher in sugar?


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Is it lower or higher in sugar?


Zinfandel is usually on the higher end of sugar content with most wines being 15-17%+ alcohol range.


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## hawkwing (Apr 24, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> Zinfandel is usually on the higher end of sugar content with most wines being 15-17%+ alcohol range.


If they get stuck do you just finish off with a different yeast like 1118 or just add yeast energizer?


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> If they get stuck do you just finish off with a different yeast like 1118 or just add yeast energizer?


If they get stuck yeah EC-1118 is your best option due to alcohol tolerance.


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## Fox Squirrel Vin (Apr 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I was thinking of the Zymaflore Egide when I said it. Can’t find it yet. Not from a home brew shop anyway. Most of this will be online order and shipping. I can only get the basics here and a few strains of yeast. Beer ingredients are easier to get. We are basically kit wines and country wines. That said it’s not going to stop me if I have to use meta.











ZYMAFLORE EGIDE


A formulation of two strains (Torulaspora delbrueckii and and Metschnikowia pulcherrima) ifor use in harvest bioprotection of grapes and juices, and as an SO2 reduction strategy. These strains selected from among the grape’s indigenous flora for their organoleptic neutrality will colonize the...




dwinesupplies.com


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## hawkwing (Apr 25, 2022)

Fox Squirrel Vin said:


> ZYMAFLORE EGIDE
> 
> 
> A formulation of two strains (Torulaspora delbrueckii and and Metschnikowia pulcherrima) ifor use in harvest bioprotection of grapes and juices, and as an SO2 reduction strategy. These strains selected from among the grape’s indigenous flora for their organoleptic neutrality will colonize the...
> ...


I will see if they ship to Canada but I have found a company in Canada if they will sell to me. Have yo phone them as they dint have a web store.


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## tullamore (Apr 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I will see if they ship to Canada but I have found a company in Canada if they will sell to me. Have yo phone them as they dint have a web store.


i think u should ask around ur area - u said u are from Saskatchewan - i'm sure u will find a supplier that brings in grapes - if not u will have a hard time getting grapes on your own - that just won't happened - if u do - top dollar$$$
maybe frozen must - but that a stretch - i know there Bosagrape in BC
they sell Peter Brehm frozen grapes


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## hawkwing (Apr 25, 2022)

tullamore said:


> i think u should ask around ur area - u said u are from Saskatchewan - i'm sure u will find a supplier that brings in grapes - if not u will have a hard time getting grapes on your own - that just won't happened - if u do - top dollar$$$
> maybe frozen must - but that a stretch - i know there Bosagrape in BC
> they sell Peter Brehm frozen grapes


I've found two places that brings in grapes but one is up for sale. The other place is a produce importer. I meant for the specialty yeast that protects the must and allows for sulfite reduction.


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## tullamore (Apr 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I've found two places that brings in grapes but one is up for sale. The other place is a produce importer. I meant for the specialty yeast that protects the must and allows for sulfite reduction.


get on the Lalvin website - good luck


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## hawkwing (Apr 26, 2022)

Ok I’m curious now about the Zinfandel having higher Brix. I looked at my liquor store and the Zinfandels there are all 14.5% alcohol or less. Are they picking early or blending or what am I missing?


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## winemaker81 (Apr 26, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Ok I’m curious now about the Zinfandel having higher Brix. I looked at my liquor store and the Zinfandels there are all 14.5% alcohol or less. Are they picking early or blending or what am I missing?


Could be either. I'm not sure if watering back is legal in CA, but that's also a possibility.

In the USA, a varietal labeled wine has to contain at least 75% of the named grape variety, so a hot Zinfandel can be cut with up to 25% of other grapes.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 26, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Ok I’m curious now about the Zinfandel having higher Brix. I looked at my liquor store and the Zinfandels there are all 14.5% alcohol or less. Are they picking early or blending or what am I missing?


A lot of the zinfandels I’ve had and worked with have been 15%-17% I produce a zin that hits 16.5% I like them with higher abv but only if it’s balanced and the alcohol isn’t hot and doesn’t stand out too strongly.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 26, 2022)

Another thing to consider is that wine with more than 16% ABV is taxed at a significantly greater rate: TTBGov - Quick Reference Guide to Wine Excise Tax


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## hawkwing (Apr 26, 2022)

Interesting could be a good starting base for a port. I found an article that suggested using a blend for a port. It has a couple suggestions 

Luscious Port Wine - WineMakerMag.com

Syrah, Merlot and perhaps a little Alicante Bouschet. Blending ratios depend on taste; a typical ratio for these varietals is 75-20-5, respectively. Or you can try a 50-50 blend of Syrah and Zindandel.

Thoughts?


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## hawkwing (Sep 2, 2022)

Does anyone have any recommendations for malo bacteria from Scott labs?


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## mainshipfred (Sep 2, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations for malo bacteria from Scott labs?


I use MBR 31 but I would say most use VP 41.


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## hawkwing (Sep 2, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> I use MBR 31 but I would say most use VP 41.


What’s the difference? Besides the smallest order of vp41 is $250


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## sour_grapes (Sep 2, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> What’s the difference? Besides the smallest order of vp41 is $250



You can get small quantities of VP41 from Morewinemaking: Dry Malolactic Bacteria - VP41 (2.5 g) | MoreWine . It's $39.

CH16 is pretty sure-fire: Dry Malolactic Bacteria - Viniflora CH16 | MoreWine


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## mainshipfred (Sep 2, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> What’s the difference? Besides the smallest order of vp41 is $250


I just checked their website, they do have it, 2.5 grams packs for $25 good for 66 gallons. VP41 has higher tolerances and probably finishes quicker. I prefer the MBR 31 simply because it is slower and feel it benefits somehow. I don't have enough batches under my belt to say for sure though.


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## hawkwing (Sep 2, 2022)

sour_grapes said:


> You can get small quantities of VP41 from Morewinemaking: Dry Malolactic Bacteria - VP41 (2.5 g) | MoreWine . It's $39.
> 
> CH16 is pretty sure-fire: Dry Malolactic Bacteria - Viniflora CH16 | MoreWine


Oh it’s back in stock. Not sure what the transit time is to Canada. How important is adding the nutrients for it?or should they grapes have enough?


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## hawkwing (Sep 2, 2022)

I was going to get Lallzyme EX-V straight from them in Canada. Thought I’d try and avoid buying from multiple places. 

Should I consider a yeast besides RC-212?


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## crushday (Sep 2, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I was going to get Lallzyme EX-V straight from them in Canada. Thought I’d try and avoid buying from multiple places.
> 
> Should I consider a yeast besides RC-212?


212 can be tough to work with and often gets stressed and omits H2S - that rotten egg smell - BAD, BAD, BAD!

Bosa in BC sells small quantities of Avante - use that and you’ll have no problems typically.






Bosagrape Winery Supplies Ltd. > YEAST > Renaissance Avante 50g to 10kg


Avante Avante is a H2S-preventing wine yeast that is ideal for red wines. This yeast produces an intense fruit overture followed by a mild spiciness and a smooth tannin finish. This yeast is able to bring out differentiated varietal aromas by bringing out the rich concentrated flavors...




ecom.bosagrape.com


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## hawkwing (Sep 2, 2022)

crushday said:


> 212 can be tough to work with and often gets stressed and omits H2S - that rotten egg smell - BAD, BAD, BAD!
> 
> Bosa in BC sells small quantities of Avante - use that and you’ll have no problems typically.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks. What about the Wyeast offerings including the malolactic cultures?


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## tullamore (Sep 3, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Ok thanks. What about the Wyeast offerings including the malolactic cultures?


go to Watsns.ca - 
Niagara on the lake - i buy my supplies from him - has a lot links all info u need about yeats, etc...


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## hawkwing (Sep 5, 2022)

tullamore said:


> go to Watsns.ca -
> Niagara on the lake - i buy my supplies from him - has a lot links all info u need about yeats, etc...


I had to google it. It's actually Watsons.ca.

They have small quantities of color pro and color x mixed. Which enzyme is best? The mix or something like EX-V?


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## hawkwing (Sep 5, 2022)

tullamore said:


> go to Watsns.ca -
> Niagara on the lake - i buy my supplies from him - has a lot links all info u need about yeats, etc...


They also have CH16 but in a larger quantity. Seems that one is recommended by several people. So many options and no idea if or how much it matters.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 5, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> They have small quantities of color pro and color x mixed. Which enzyme is best? The mix or something like EX-V?


I've been using ColorPro, as from the description it does what several other enzymes do. I've been very pleased with the results.

I suggest you lookup the vendor descriptions of the products and use that to decide what appears best for you.


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## hawkwing (Sep 5, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> I've been using ColorPro, as from the description it does what several other enzymes do. I've been very pleased with the results.
> 
> I suggest you lookup the vendor descriptions of the products and use that to decide what appears best for you.


They sell a mix of Color Pro and Color X. Not sure why it's mixed or how that affects things. X is describes as more course extraction. I'm probably overthinking it and will be happy with any of these choices. Might just have to age longer with certain choices.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 5, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> They sell a mix of Color Pro and Color X. Not sure why it's mixed or how that affects things. X is describes as more course extraction. I'm probably overthinking it and will be happy with any of these choices. Might just have to age longer with certain choices.


Maceration enzymes increase extraction of various constituents from the grapes by breaking down various components in the grapes, in essence setting various things free, moreso than normally released during fermentation. Tannin additives, including toasted oak, are involved in a chemical process where oak tannin drops instead of grape tannin (there are numerous types of tannin, all with different properties). This gets into bio-chemistry that I understand at the 1,000 foot (304.8 m) level, but not in more detail without a lot of intensive reading.

From what I read, Color X makes a longer aging wine due to the tannins it extracts. Personally, I'm not interested, as the ColorPro helped me produce wines where some are nice at 2 years while others will need 3 years. This works for me. YMMV


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## hawkwing (Sep 5, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Maceration enzymes increase extraction of various constituents from the grapes by breaking down various components in the grapes, in essence setting various things free, moreso than normally released during fermentation. Tannin additives, including toasted oak, are involved in a chemical process where oak tannin drops instead of grape tannin (there are numerous types of tannin, all with different properties). This gets into bio-chemistry that I understand at the 1,000 foot (304.8 m) level, but not in more detail without a lot of intensive reading.
> 
> From what I read, Color X makes a longer aging wine due to the tannins it extracts. Personally, I'm not interested, as the ColorPro helped me produce wines where some are nice at 2 years while others will need 3 years. This works for me. YMMV


I read that too. I'm probably going to get EX-V as I want a full body red, I can get it from the same place thus less shipping, and it's not mixed with another product, as well as it has a longer shelf life and doesn't require refrigeration.


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## hawkwing (Sep 6, 2022)

Well I missed the first order of grapes from the one supplier. He called and said they will be in on Sunday and he has 4 Zinfandel, 2 cab, and 2 of something that has a lot of color and starts with an A. His price was just under $50 a case.

If I order from the other place they would be $65 for cab and $70 for Zinfandel. They'd be here on the 18th or 19th.

I was told that they are more ripe by the old gentleman I talked to who's bought from both. Is it worth grabbing the cheaper grapes that were extra or wait and get the riper grapes for a bit more money? I was going to get 6 to 12 cases possibly but I need to go back and read what others have said for amounts. They guy with the cheaper grapes told me 5 cases would make two carboys. I just wanted a little extra for top up.


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## hawkwing (Sep 8, 2022)

If I were to pickup the 4 Zinfandel and 2 Cabernet should I also get the 2 Alicante?

Also if I were to get more from the other supplier does anyone know why Zinfandel are $5 more than Cabernet Sauvignon per lug? I’m undecided which if those two I will get if I get more but I have to order by noon tomorrow. But I’ve always though the Cabernet is supposed to cost more and it’s definitely not old vine. I’m leaning to the Cabernet for a dry red but to Zinfandel if I want to make port.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 8, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> If I were to pickup the 4 Zinfandel and 2 Cabernet should I also get the 2 Alicante?


There is no way to provide good advice, as what to buy depends on what _you_ want.

Grape prices are variable, depending a lot on source. Musto has a ~$18 variance between their to end and bottom end CS.

The last few years *I* have been making blends, but that is simply one option. What do _you_ like? Do you want to stay in your comfort range, or do you want to experiment?


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## hawkwing (Sep 8, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> There is no way to provide good advice, as what to buy depends on what _you_ want.
> 
> Grape prices are variable, depending a lot on source. Musto has a ~$18 variance between their to end and bottom end CS.
> 
> The last few years *I* have been making blends, but that is simply one option. What do _you_ like? Do you want to stay in your comfort range, or do you want to experiment?


I know that is the truth. I like port. I like reds mostly and like cab an zin. Although I know blends are where it’s at. I’d probably blend after fermentation. Unfortunately I’m forced to buy my grapes blindly without any idea of quality. So are the Zinfandel better because of price no idea. I’m probably leaning to Cabernet but possibly something else for blending. The Zinfandel possibly for port. Merlot is another option. But I’ve purchased the Avante yeast and the ex-v enzymes so I’m probably beat to stick with Cabernet or Zinfandel. The Alicante might be good to blend for color. Since it’s my first year it’s hard to decide. Next year I’ll have a reference point. Maybe the selection is good to get some reference point and experience.


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## Jim Welch (Sep 8, 2022)

I think most everyone buys their grapes blind to an extent, every crop is different so even if one buys the exact same variety from the same vineyard this years crop may or may not be like last years.
As far as pricing, in the end one can only sell something for what another is willing to pay except of course for absolute necessities.
I am also buying grapes for the first time this year through G. Pinto in NJ. I got their price list where they list 9 different vineyards. Those that have Cab Sauv are in the mid $50s to mid $60s for a 36 Lb lug. One vineyard that list nothing but Cab Sauv is pricing their 36 Lb lugs at $115 each! These grapes MUST be in high demand or they simply wouldn't sell otherwise. So most of the time things are priced according to the demand there is for them and perhaps that is what you are seeing.
I ordered 14 lugs yesterday, all from the same vineyard since I have to start somewhere right? As you mention @hawkwing, as a reference point and experience. FWIW, I ordered 6 Merlot, 3 Syrah, 3 Zin, and 4 Petite Syrah


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## winemaker81 (Sep 9, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> So are the Zinfandel better because of price no idea.


Nope. CS is typically more in demand, and gets a correspondingly higher price. Price can be an indicator within a given varietal, but it's not a guarantee. 

As @Jim Welch's said, most of us are flying blind, and those that aren't, are dependent upon Mother Nature and Dionysus to provide good grapes (good tending and care matter greatly, but Mother Nature has the final say).

Post-fermentation blending is probably the best course of action, but it requires enough space to have carboys (or barrels) of each wine. That doesn't work for everyone.

My 2020's are field blends -- I researched grape varieties and went with a Bordeaux bend and a Bordeaux blend + Zinfandel. I knew a Merlot-heavy Bordeaux blend would work (hundreds of years of history behind this decision) and tasted a Bordeaux-style blend + Zinfandel and liked it. The latter had a higher element of risk, but it worked out.

This year's plan is different -- the plan is an 8 lug batch each of Tempranillo and Grenache, and a smaller batch containing 1 lug each Syrah, Mourvedre, and Petit Verdot. After bulk aging, the blend will be blended into each of the Tempranillo and Grenache, according to taste. This mixes the blend types -- doing post-aging blending with a field blend.  

However, it fits my space and I have confidence that the final results will be good.

If you're buying red Vinifera, you can make something you like. Don't over-think this, as it will drive you insane. Make a selection based upon research and plow forward!


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

I’m wanting to get a few kinds but now I’m thinking if I get one or two lugs of one kinds to try I’m going to run into storage issues with part full carboys. Hmm….lol


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## winemaker81 (Sep 9, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’m wanting to get a few kinds but now I’m thinking if I get one or two lugs of one kinds to try I’m going to run into storage issues with part full carboys. Hmm….lol


It takes about 2.5 lugs to fill a 19 liter carboy, after clearing. Figure out how many carboys you want to fill and buy 3 lugs of each varietal -- fill the carboys with each varietal, and take the remainders and make a Frankenwine. This provides you experimentation with varietals and a catchall to handle excess. Post-aging, blend in small batches to produce a wider variety (more experimentation), and don't forget the Frankenwine may also be good for blending results.


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

I have 23 L car boys. Would 3 lugs be sufficient or would 2.5 fill them too?

Is there any pint to getting the Alicante for color if I have Cabernet Sauvignon, Zinfandel and Merlot?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 9, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I have 23 L car boys. Would 3 lugs be sufficient or would 2.5 fill them too?


I *think* 3 lugs will fill a 23 liter carboy, but not much leftover.



hawkwing said:


> Is there any pint to getting the Alicante for color if I have Cabernet Sauvignon, Zinfandel and Merlot?


IMO, yes. At this point, you don't know what you want, so giving yourself more choices expands your knowledge. Also, if any of the others are a bit short, you can use Alicante for topping. [This is coming from a guy who doesn't blink at blending, so take the advice with a grain of salt.]


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

Ok thanks. While
I’m not sure about blending yet I’m assuming most of the wines I’ve purchased are probably blends and not pure varietals. So I’m not scared of blending but I do want to try each in the pure form as well. I might end up with two different supplier ls of zin and can as well so that’ll be interesting.


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

Well I missed out on the Alicante as someone else got them. Regardless I have probably gone way overboard anyway. 

Between two suppliers I’ll have 6 Cabernet Sauvignon, 6 Zinfandel and 3 Merlot. I’ll have to start drinking more wine.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 9, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Between two suppliers I’ll have 6 Cabernet Sauvignon, 6 Zinfandel and 3 Merlot. I’ll have to start drinking more wine.


It goes far faster than we expect, especially since we can't just go and buy more.


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

I was thinking I need to drink my kit wines while I’m waiting.


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## Jim Welch (Sep 9, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Well I missed out on the Alicante as someone else got them. Regardless I have probably gone way overboard anyway.
> 
> Between two suppliers I’ll have 6 Cabernet Sauvignon, 6 Zinfandel and 3 Merlot. I’ll have to start drinking more wine.


Let some age! I repeat, let some age! It can be difficult but many red wines improve a lot with a year or two, or three under their belt. First kit wine I made was in spring 2015, a Cellar Craft Showcase Zinfandel was “drinkable” at 9-12 months, I wasn’t impressed and forgot about it in the basement. Around thanksgiving 2018 one of my adult daughters stopped by and asked for a bottle. She was back the next day for another. She told me it was good, I just said thanks. She replied, no Dad it was really really good, have you tried it? We’ll I had and did again and I was simply blown away. I could not believe how much it had changed. I entered that wine in the 2019 Wine Maker Mag amateur competition and won a silver medal. Not trying to brag just trying to make the point of what aging might do for a red wine so don’t drink all of what you have too fast!


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

Well I definitely won’t drink it that fast lol. Will have 30-36 gallons likely. Probably take me a decade or two. I have some 20 year old chokecherry wine still. But I started making beer again too so I have to spread it out. 

Honestly the reason it’s still around is probably because it’s packed away and not easy to get to. I need to remedy that.


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## wood1954 (Sep 9, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Well I definitely won’t drink it that fast lol. Will have 30-36 gallons likely. Probably take me a decade or two. I have some 20 year old chokecherry wine still. But I started making beer again too so I have to spread it out.
> 
> Honestly the reason it’s still around is probably because it’s packed away and not easy to get to. I need to remedy that.


that's a year's supply for me


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> that's a year's supply for me


I need more friends that drink wine.


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## hawkwing (Sep 9, 2022)

I was reading back a bit and come across the cold soak idea. Is this of any benefit when using enzymes? How much dry ice is needed to do this?


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## CDrew (Sep 10, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I was reading back a bit and come across the cold soak idea. Is this of any benefit when using enzymes? How much dry ice is needed to do this?


The use of enzymes is kind of a substitute for cold soaking. If this is your very first grape wine, just concentrate on making a nice vintage. I would not overthink things and use a lot of technique that carries a degree of risk. You will be pleasantly shocked by how good your wine from grapes will be, just using normal winemaking procedures.

Regarding your amount of wine-you'll drink it earlier than you think, just to re-evaluate it, and see how it's changing over time. That's a big part of the fun of wine making. If your amounts are correct, you will yield 12-14 cases. I think you could easily drink that in 2-3 years. You gotta make room for 2023! My own evaluation process is bulk storage for a year with tasting only when racking. Then bottle. I taste a bottle per month for the next year, then typically give a bunch away if I'm pleased with it, and drink the rest over 3-5 years.

How do you plan to bulk store 36 gallons? That's a fair amount. I'll re-read your thread to see if you've answered that. Best of luck with your upcoming vintage.

edit: Nevermind. It seems you have demijohns which should work just fine. Consider putting them on a dolly on the floor, so they can be moved around when full.


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## hawkwing (Sep 10, 2022)

CDrew said:


> The use of enzymes is kind of a substitute for cold soaking. If this is your very first grape wine, just concentrate on making a nice vintage. I would not overthink things and use a lot of technique that carries a degree of risk. You will be pleasantly shocked by how good your wine from grapes will be, just using normal winemaking procedures.
> 
> Regarding your amount of wine-you'll drink it earlier than you think, just to re-evaluate it, and see how it's changing over time. That's a big part of the fun of wine making. If your amounts are correct, you will yield 12-14 cases. I think you could easily drink that in 2-3 years. You gotta make room for 2023! My own evaluation process is bulk storage for a year with tasting only when racking. Then bottle. I taste a bottle per month for the next year, then typically give a bunch away if I'm pleased with it, and drink the rest over 3-5 years.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice!

I have quite a few 23L carboys and a few 11-13L and some 3 and 4 L jugs. Plus it’s usually not hard to find more carboys. I could also bottle something if I need an extra few. I picked up a whole bunch of used carboys and jugs in spring for cheap. Something like $50 for 8 carboys and a dozen 3 L jugs and another mini jet pump and whatever miscellaneous supplies he had. 

I do have some 54 L demijohns in storage but I think I’m going to avoid them for ease of moving. 

Another question how much oak and or tannin powder do you add if any when using grapes? I’ve read that tannins helps stabilize the color?


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## CDrew (Sep 10, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Another question how much oak and or tannin powder do you add if any when using grapes? I’ve read that tannins helps stabilize the color?



I use small amounts of FT Rouge sometimes, but I use less than more wine recommends. I don't think it's 100% needed especially with enzyme use. I also add a bit of Opti-red. I think that's a yeast hull product, not a tannin, but I do feel it benefits most red wines. In 2017 all of my wines were light in color, and since then, I have used enzymes(every time) and the FT Rouge(most times). I have gradually been using less and less of the tannin. I don't use any oak during fermentation.


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## hawkwing (Sep 10, 2022)

CDrew said:


> I use small amounts of FT Rouge sometimes, but I use less than more wine recommends. I don't think it's 100% needed especially with enzyme use. I also add a bit of Opti-red. I think that's a yeast hull product, not a tannin, but I do feel it benefits most red wines. In 2017 all of my wines were light in color, and since then, I have used enzymes(every time) and the FT Rouge(most times). I have gradually been using less and less of the tannin. I don't use any oak during fermentation.


I have natural grape tannin and some from a wine store that probably isn’t grape tannin. No idea how much it matters. I recall reading something about being cautious of synthetic tannin. 

Should I be aiming for an SG that would support an PA of 13-14.5 or just go with what they have naturally? I’m hopeful that the Zinfandel are high in sugar beyond that point.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

I think I’m going to try a 2-3 day cold soak.

In addition to that I was wondering about fermentation temperature. I’ve read and seen videos discussing that 85F or so will help extract color etc. so do I want to wrap a fermentation belt around the whole time? Or just for part of the fermentation? I was watching a video that said as alcohol increases the higher temperature will extract more tannins from the seeds. 

I was also considering an extended maceration. What’s the best strategy for fermentation and maceration?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

@hawkwing, a higher temperature ferment will extract more color, but at the cost of fruit and aroma. I suggest a maceration enzyme enzyme for color extraction -- I use Scottzyme ColorPro and folks on this forum use other enzymes, all with good results.

Be careful of what you ask for with regard to tannin extraction. It's very possible to over-do it.

There's isn't a best strategy for anything in wine making -- it all depends on what _you_ want. I can tell you what I do, but that may not produce the results you want.

For EM, when the SG is between 1.020 and 1.010, give the wine a final stir and seal the fermenter. Leave it as long as you want. FWK recommends a 14 day ferment/maceration, unsealing the fermenter on Day 14 from start. Folks on this forum have done EM up to 8 weeks.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> @hawkwing, a higher temperature ferment will extract more color, but at the cost of fruit and aroma. I suggest a maceration enzyme enzyme for color extraction -- I use Scottzyme ColorPro and folks on this forum use other enzymes, all with good results.
> 
> Be careful of what you ask for with regard to tannin extraction. It's very possible to over-do it.
> 
> ...


I have lallzyme ex-v so I should be ok. So you would recommend fermenting around room temperature then. Makes it easier. 

So the extended maceration isn’t done by taste or anything like that? I assume you don’t want to keep opening it? I was things two weeks anyway. Not sure about 8 weeks. What would happen in 8 weeks over two?


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## CDrew (Sep 12, 2022)

@hawking - I will give the same advice as previously. You are more likely to harm your wine with advanced technique than improve it. At least the first time. Carbonic maceration done commercially and done at home are two different things. Get a good first wine under your belt and then worry about advanced technique. Or, just break out a small amount of your main fermentation for a separate fermentation and a trial of say, carbonic (extended) maceration. Then do a taste test blind at 6 months and see what you like better.

I promise you will be super pleased with the Enzyme addition, and will likely find there is no reason to do more.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> So the extended maceration isn’t done by taste or anything like that? I assume you don’t want to keep opening it? I was things two weeks anyway. Not sure about 8 weeks. What would happen in 8 weeks over two?


Definitely no -- do not open the container. The process works because the wine continues to emit CO2, which pushes the air out through the airlock. This provides a cushion to protect the wine during EM. If you open the container, the wine loses protection and is subject to oxidation.

Color, flavor, and aroma are extracted from the must during the first 2 to 5 days of fermentation, then the rate drops off dramatically. I found several sources that said the same thing. OTOH, tannin continues to extract over a longer period -- weeks or even months.

In Burgundy, EM last up to 90 days, producing a long aging wine. This is great if you want to wait 5 to 10 years to drink the wine.

Sources in the USA state the tannin mellow over an extended period (let's say 8 weeks), so initially harsh tannins soften, and folks on this forum back that up. However, I'm cautious in jumping on the EM bandwagon (or any bandwagon for that matter).

During a 2 week fermentation period the wine completes fermentation and the gross lees (grape solids) drop, and there is a short EM, pulling some tannin from the skins and seeds. Note that FWK does the same process for whites, where the fermentation simply completes.

IME so far, this enables me to cut a racking out of my process, since I'm not racking right after fermentation and then racking again in 1 to 3 weeks.

I agree with @CDrew, in that it's not necessary to throw the kitchen sink into winemaking. For reds I add fermentation (medium toast shredded) oak and ColorPro, which extracts great color, flavor, and aroma, and maintains the color. I use aging oak for flavoring, but generally don't do anything else, as I don't feel the need.

Note that there's nothing wrong with trying every technique, but IMO there are diminishing returns. Keep it simple.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

CDrew said:


> @hawking - I will give the same advice as previously. You are more likely to harm your wine with advanced technique than improve it. At least the first time. Carbonic maceration done commercially and done at home are two different things. Get a good first wine under your belt and then worry about advanced technique. Or, just break out a small amount of your main fermentation for a separate fermentation and a trial of say, carbonic (extended) maceration. Then do a taste test blind at 6 months and see what you like better.
> 
> I promise you will be super pleased with the Enzyme addition, and will likely find there is no reason to do more.


My understanding is that carbonic maceration and cold soaking are two different things. I didn’t think there would be a danger to cold soaking and that it would add to the flavor. I’m easy either way but I’m not afraid to try the cold soaking especially if there is some benefit.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Definitely no -- do not open the container. The process works because the wine continues to emit CO2, which pushes the air out through the airlock. This provides a cushion to protect the wine during EM. If you open the container, the wine loses protection and is subject to oxidation.
> 
> Color, flavor, and aroma are extracted from the must during the first 2 to 5 days of fermentation, then the rate drops off dramatically. I found several sources that said the same thing. OTOH, tannin continues to extract over a longer period -- weeks or even months.
> 
> ...


So you only do punch downs for the first 5 days or so then seal it up?

How does one decide when they are happy with the maceration time without opening for a sample?

I have co2 so if I opened it I could give it a bit of a co2 blanket.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> So you only do punch downs for the first 5 days or so then seal it up?


Yes.



> How does one decide when they are happy with the maceration time without opening for a sample?


You either guess or use experience as a judge.



> I have co2 so if I opened it I could give it a bit of a co2 blanket.


This may or may not work. EM works as the CO2 bubbles out of the wine, pushing air out the airlock. Note that gases mix rapidly, so this effect works because the CO2 coming out of the wine forces air at the top of the container out. Blasting CO2 in may - or may not - displace the air sufficiently. There is no way to ensure that the wine is protected.

The process for EM indicates sealing the container and not opening it. Your call on trying a different process.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> You either guess or use experience as a judge.
> ...


You mentioned airlock but I was envisioning this extended maceration taking place in the primary fermenter?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> You mentioned airlock but I was envisioning this extended maceration taking place in the primary fermenter?


For kits, most folks use 7.9 gallon fermenters with a locking lid, drilled for a #3 stopper + airlock. If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

Im


winemaker81 said:


> For kits, most folks use 7.9 gallon fermenters with a locking lid, drilled for a #3 stopper + airlock. If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out.


I’m confused because I’m not making kit wine. I’m getting 540lbs of grapes. 

I don’t see how maceration for a juice kit makes any sense?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’m confused because I’m not making kit wine. I’m getting 540lbs of grapes.
> 
> I don’t see how maceration for a juice kit makes any sense?


That's where "If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out." comes into play.  

EM requires a primary that has the ability to be sealed. I'm thinking about how to do that with a 32 gallon Brute -- current idea is plastic over the top held in place with stretch cords.

It's feasible to let the wine ferment dry, give it a day more (it's still emitting a lot of CO2), then press.


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## CDrew (Sep 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> My understanding is that carbonic maceration and cold soaking are two different things. I didn’t think there would be a danger to cold soaking and that it would add to the flavor. I’m easy either way but I’m not afraid to try the cold soaking especially if there is some benefit.



Of course, this is my understanding too. But either has risks. A cold soak unless truly cold, risks bacterial spoilage, and an extended maceration risks oxidation. Wineries can mitigate both. Much harder to do without chillers, nitrogen systems and the like. Either way, with 540 pounds of grapes, you are going to have your hands full. Good luck and report progress.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> That's where "If using something else, you need to figure a way to seal the container with an airlock-type device to let excess CO2 out." comes into play.
> 
> EM requires a primary that has the ability to be sealed. I'm thinking about how to do that with a 32 gallon Brute -- current idea is plastic over the top held in place with stretch cords.
> 
> It's feasible to let the wine ferment dry, give it a day more (it's still emitting a lot of CO2), then press.


Well wouldn’t just putting the lid on be about the same thing and plastic and bungee cords?


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

CDrew said:


> Of course, this is my understanding too. But either has risks. A cold soak unless truly cold, risks bacterial spoilage, and an extended maceration risks oxidation. Wineries can mitigate both. Much harder to do without chillers, nitrogen systems and the like. Either way, with 540 pounds of grapes, you are going to have your hands full. Good luck and report progress.


Ha ha yup going to be busy. Getting the first 6 lugs likely Wednesday afternoon or Thursday morning. He’s putting them in the cooler until I get home. Then Monday morning for the rest. 

I could get some ice and double bag at first and can get dry ice Monday. I only want to get dry ice once as there is a premium initial charge. It’s $25 for the first 2 kg. Then 6-7 for each additional. I might fill my Sodastream bottles at the same time.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

CDrew said:


> Of course, this is my understanding too. But either has risks. A cold soak unless truly cold, risks bacterial spoilage, and an extended maceration risks oxidation. *Wineries can mitigate both.* Much harder to do without chillers, nitrogen systems and the like. Either way, with 540 pounds of grapes, you are going to have your hands full. Good luck and report progress.


Emphasis mine. @CDrew hit the nail squarely on the head. If the winemaker has the correct tools, anything is possible. However, most of us don't.



hawkwing said:


> Well wouldn’t just putting the lid on be about the same thing and plastic and bungee cords?


It's not a tight seal. Once the wine stops emitting CO2, O2 can get in. It's like leaving the stopper out of the carboy, except with a LOT more surface area to expose the wine.


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## hawkwing (Sep 12, 2022)

I’ll see what I can figure. I don’t want to cut holes in my lids or put grapes in a demijohn. Seems like a pain in the butt to get out.

I do have some pails that I put a stopper in the lid. One lid cracked so I don’t want to do anymore. Maybe I’ll just do a sample in one pail to see.

One way or another I’m making wine from grapes.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 12, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’ll see what I can figure.


The easiest course of action is to not try EM. It's not a fit for your current situation.


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## hawkwing (Sep 13, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> The easiest course of action is to not try EM. It's not a fit for your current situation.


I think I have a solution that could work but another reason came to mind that might be an issue I don’t have the proper storage conditions for long term aging. So making a wine that requires long aging when for most of the year I only have room temperature or slightly warmer storage may not be the best.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 13, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I think I have a solution that could work but another reason came to mind that might be an issue I don’t have the proper storage conditions for long term aging. So making a wine that requires long aging when for most of the year I only have room temperature or slightly warmer storage may not be the best.


Cellar management is critical for most folks. While some folks on the forum have huge bottle storage space, most of us are limited. I'm near the limit of what I can store and literally need to drink or give away more wine to make storage. It's great you're looking forward, as it will avoid that, "OMG! Where am I going to put this????"


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## hawkwing (Sep 13, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Cellar management is critical for most folks. While some folks on the forum have huge bottle storage space, most of us are limited. I'm near the limit of what I can store and literally need to drink or give away more wine to make storage. It's great you're looking forward, as it will avoid that, "OMG! Where am I going to put this????"


Ha ha I’m already in the OMG where am I going to put this space lol. I figured I’ll leave in carboys and only bottle one or two at a time.


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## hawkwing (Sep 16, 2022)

I just finished my first crush day. I got 2 Cab, 4 Zin, and he ended up having 1 Alicante and 1/2 a Muscat. It took me about 6 hours to crush and destem which most of that was destemming. He loaned me a small crusher which helped a lot.

I added potassium metabisulfite and the EX-V enzyme. I was surprised at how little the instructions say to add. It must be super concentrated. That jar would last my lifetime if it didn't expire.

According to my refractometer the Zinfandel SG was 1.101, the cab 1.099 and the Alicante and Muscat were 1.080. I'll test with a hydrometer tomorrow and adjust. The acid can wait until tomorrow too.


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## hawkwing (Sep 16, 2022)

Ok so I have measured everything and added some tartaric acid. The Zinfandel pH is a bit high but the TA is at 0.6%. Should I make any adjustments or leave it for now?

Zin
Hydrometer SG 1.112
pH 3.87
TA 0.6%

Cab
Hydrometer SG 1.112
pH 3.52
TA 0.6%

Alicante
Hydrometer SG 1.093
pH 3.48
TA 0.6%

Muscat
Hydrometer SG 1.092
pH 3.47
TA 0.7%


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## hawkwing (Sep 16, 2022)

Oh I forgot a couple other questions. Should I just use the Avante yeast on the muscat or just go with 1118?

The grapes were in a cooler so I double bagged some ice and kept the zin and cab cold like around 12C. Wrapped in a blanket. I figure I can safely get 2 days of cold soak. I’ll likely pitch tomorrow.


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## CDrew (Sep 16, 2022)

Good numbers overall. I would add at least 1g/L of tartaric(and maybe 2g/L) to your Zinfandel, but I've become pretty fearless about acid additions. Good work running all the labs. That represents a lot of work.


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## hawkwing (Sep 16, 2022)

CDrew said:


> Good numbers overall. I would add at least 1g/L of tartaric(and maybe 2g/L) to your Zinfandel, but I've become pretty fearless about acid additions. Good work running all the labs. That represents a lot of work.


Oh man the lab work is almost as bad as the crushing and destemming. Not worried about total TA outside of my test kits range for reds?


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## CDrew (Sep 16, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Oh man the lab work is almost as bad as the crushing and destemming. Not worried about total TA outside of my test kits range for reds?


Probably not. Excess tartaric acid tends to fall out. The commercial guys don't seem to stress on this. They measure pH and act accordingly. You want your pH a bit lower. So I'd lower it a bit, without being too focused on a specific number. At pH 3.7, I'd likely do nothing. Good luck, all of this is a bit of an art, meaning you need to adapt on the fly to what you have.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 16, 2022)

@hawkwing, be cautious of putting too much focus on exact numbers. I see @CDrew just said pretty much the same thing.

If your pH is in a good range (and it is, although the Zin is iffy IMO), ferment it and see what it tastes like in 3 months. Keep in mind that your test equipment will not be drinking the wine, so after 3 to 6 months of bulk aging, focus on taste. Use your senses.

A lot of folks prefer to use numbers, as it feels like an exact answer. Trust your senses and if the wine tastes good, you have succeeded.


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## hawkwing (Sep 16, 2022)

Thanks everyone. I added 24g tartaric and got down to 3.58 pH. I’ll go with that. I assume you can make adjustments for flavor after fermentation?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 16, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I assume you can make adjustments for flavor after fermentation?


Yes, but go gentle as is easy to over do it. It's far easier to add more than take some out.


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## hawkwing (Sep 16, 2022)

would you use the Avante yeast on the white muscat or should I use something like 1118 that I have on hand?


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## winemaker81 (Sep 17, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> would you use the Avante yeast on the white muscat or should I use something like 1118 that I have on hand?


I'd use Avante. I'm not sure it's the right yeast for white Muscat, but it will give more of _something_ than EC-1118.

I keep a packet of EC-1118 in the fridge. It is the perfect emergency yeast - fast starter, stomps out competition, high alcohol tolerance. But it provides little character to the wine.


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## hawkwing (Sep 21, 2022)

Well on Monday I got my remaining 9 cases from the other supplier. 3 Merlot, 2 Zinfandel and 4 Cabernet Sauvignon. Got them crushed and destemmed on Monday. Too bad I missed the crusher destemmer with motor I saw for $150. They took quit a bit of tartaric acid especially the zinfandel. I got the pH down below 3.5 and in the morning it was back up above 4. I got the yeast pitched and am waiting for them to take off like the others. I considered transferring a portion of the active must rather than re-pitching but they should be fine. 

Merlot SG 1.108

Zinfandel SG 1.122

Cabernet Sauvignon SG 1.130

I was expecting the Zinfandel to be the highest from what others were saying so was surprised by the Cabernet.

The Italian gentleman at the store told me I shouldn't believe everything I read. Told me to not add anything such at tartaric acid. The grapes are the ideal fruit and have enough enzymes and let the natural yeast do their thing. Well I don't want vinegar and I prefer to get the best results I can.

As an after thought maybe next year I'll make a white wine for cooking and possibly champagne.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 21, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> The Italian gentleman at the store told me I shouldn't believe everything I read. Told me to not add anything such at tartaric acid. The grapes are the ideal fruit and have enough enzymes and let the natural yeast do their thing


Grapes are the closest to being the perfect fruit for winemaking ... but sometimes Mother Nature needs a helping hand.


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## hawkwing (Sep 22, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Grapes are the closest to being the perfect fruit for winemaking ... but sometimes Mother Nature needs a helping hand.


They are but they were too expensive to risk having not so good wine or vinegar. Maybe I’ll take a little sample and make vinegar. 

I helped the guy load pails of juice to customers when he got a semi load in. Almost 700 pails. He gave me a free pail. I picked a Nebbiolo. I was told to just let it ferment naturally but I gave it some Avante. 

I also took a jar of juice and put in the fridge. I’m going to try making a yeast starter and harvest the yeast for freezing like I do for beer. Might try the same with the malolactic bacteria.


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## hawkwing (Oct 4, 2022)

I’m going to start pressing today. I have many fruit flies around. Hundreds and hundreds. While they probably came with the grapes or bananas they stayed for the tomatoes. Are they going to be a problem when pressing the grapes? I have some wine last night and got swarmed. I have to cover my glass. I have several traps out. But in worried about making vinegar if they get in. Also I still have to do MLF so not sure now much sulfite I can add.


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## Flufnagel (Oct 4, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I have many fruit flies around. Hundreds and hundreds.



That would make me a tad anxious, especially at this stage where the wine is vulnerable. Can you set up a large fan next to the press that essentially blows them away?


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## hawkwing (Oct 4, 2022)

Flufnagel said:


> That would make me a tad anxious, especially at this stage where the wine is vulnerable. Can you set up a large fan next to the press that essentially blows them away?


I can do that. I’ve already dealt with the tomatoes but I can’t really wait any less than a week if I don’t press now.


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## hawkwing (Oct 4, 2022)

I’ve had some success thinning them out with a vacuum cleaner. So maybe I’ll keep at it for a bit.


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## hawkwing (Oct 7, 2022)

I got everything pressed. It sure was a lot of work. Ill have to keep watching for a larger press. Maybe one will eventually come up in my areas some day some year. I had to get another 11.5 L carboy and a bunch of one gallon jugs I was lucky enough to find used. 

I tasted everything and I’m happy with the results so far on such a young wine. I got pretty close to two and a half carboys from the 6 lugs of Cabernet and Zinfandel. I got one and a half carboys from the 3 lugs of merlot. And about half a carboy from the Alicante. I ended up using maybe a couple bottles of Zinfandel to top up the Alicante and the Cabernet 11.5 L carboy then put the rest in gallon jugs. The half case of muscat go me just shy of 7 liters. I had to transfer some cider and goose berry wine to jugs so I could used the 11.5 L carboys. So in the end from the 600 lbs of grapes in 16.5 cases I got over 7 carboys of wine. Should be easily 7 after the sediment is gone. I didn’t have time to start the MLF. Will do that Thursday. I was up until 2 am two nights in a row. And spent most of the day on it too.

All said I plan to keep making wine from grapes instead of kits. Next year I’ll probably make a little less and pick what I like the most. Also will probably do a blend and make a port. 

Anyway the messy work is done. I should get a clean pail and cut the bottom off to place over the press so it doesn’t spray everywhere.


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## hawkwing (Nov 1, 2022)

I got the MLF and nutrients in about 2 weeks ago. Absolutely no sign anything is happening. There is no bubbles or anything the plastic pieces in the airlocks have sunk. I have no way of testing so it is what it is. 

I’m going to add some oak cubes and leave for a few months. Is 2-3 oz the correct amount? Can I leave that amount in until I feel like racking? I was thinking of sterilizing them in my oven on low temperatures.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 1, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I got the MLF and nutrients in about 2 weeks ago. Absolutely no sign anything is happening. There is no bubbles or anything the plastic pieces in the airlocks have sunk. I have no way of testing so it is what it is.


MLF doesn't necessarily show much, or any, evidence that it is working. AFAIK, chromatography is required.

It just occurred to me that a bottle of wine should be reserved prior to inoculation with MLB. In 3 to 6 months, that wine can be compared to the inoculated batch for comparison. It doesn't help you today, but an idea to keep for future reference.



hawkwing said:


> I’m going to add some oak cubes and leave for a few months. Is 2-3 oz the correct amount? Can I leave that amount in until I feel like racking? I was thinking of sterilizing them in my oven on low temperatures.


I recommend 1 to 1-1/2 oz per 5 or 6 gallons of wine. Any more and your wine may taste more like the wood than wine.

I leave cubes in for 3 to 12 months. While the oak flavoring is extracted by the end of month 3, it hurts nothing to leave the cubes in. @cmason1957 and I, in a recent discussion, have formed the belief that leaving the wood in longer "smooths" the wine. IME, putting cubes (or any oak adjunct) in just to extract oak character leaves the wine harsh. This is an observation we've both had -- I can't point to any factual description, just anecdotal.


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## Flufnagel (Nov 1, 2022)

Find a magnifying glass and peer carefully at the top of the wine, just below the surface. MLF usually produces teeny bubbles that are very hard to see with the naked eye, especially one whose acuity is compromised by the ravages of middle/old age!


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## BarrelMonkey (Nov 1, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I got the MLF and nutrients in about 2 weeks ago. Absolutely no sign anything is happening. There is no bubbles or anything the plastic pieces in the airlocks have sunk. I have no way of testing so it is what it is.


It's usually easier to hear MLF rather than see it... stick your ear next to the top of your (open!) carboy and you should hear a faint crackling. If it's slowing down, it might be more of an intermittent soft pop-pop-pop. I would expect it to take at least a few weeks to complete, depending on temperature, pH, alcohol % and MLB strain.


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## hawkwing (Nov 1, 2022)

Flufnagel said:


> Find a magnifying glass and peer carefully at the top of the wine, just below the surface. MLF usually produces teeny bubbles that are very hard to see with the naked eye, especially one whose acuity is compromised by the ravages of middle/old age!


I’ll try that. My eyes aren’t what they used to be either.


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## ChuckD (Nov 1, 2022)

BarrelMonkey said:


> It's usually easier to hear MLF rather than see it... stick your ear next to the top of your (open!) carboy and you should hear a faint crackling. If it's slowing down, it might be more of an intermittent soft pop-pop-pop. I would expect it to take at least a few weeks to complete, depending on temperature, pH, alcohol % and MLB strain.


I find if I shine a strong flashlight at the neck of the carboy I can see the tiny bubbles.


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