# Cold Soaking Petite Sirah???



## BlackDragon (Sep 23, 2014)

Is cold soaking a Petite Sirah a good idea. 15% potential alcohol reading. Also what are peoples thoughts on doing an extended maceration? Has anyone ever done this how did it turn out?


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## ibglowin (Sep 23, 2014)

Petit Sirah is usually about the darkest wine you can make. I have made it for the last two years and have found absolutely no need for any cold soak or maceration. In fact I just turned 6 gallons into a PS Port as the ABV was almost 16% and the color so dark when fortified with normal brandy you still cant see through it. Just make sure you add normal things like Lallzyme EX and OptiRed and make sure the fermentation gets up at least into the low to mid 80's in order to get good color extraction.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 23, 2014)

I'll second that. I made my first one last fall. It is in the Vadai now and it is insanely dark. I topped up over the weekend with some extra I've had in a mason jar in the fridge. I had to use oxy clean on the glass afterward, to get the color off it.


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## BlackDragon (Sep 23, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Petit Sirah is usually about the darkest wine you can make. I have made it for the last two years and have found absolutely no need for any cold soak or maceration. In fact I just turned 6 gallons into a PS Port as the ABV was almost 16% and the color so dark when fortified with normal brandy you still cant see through it. Just make sure you add normal things like Lallzyme EX and OptiRed and make sure the fermentation gets up at least into the low to mid 80's in order to get good color extraction.


I tend to like the higher abv stuff and don't plan to make this a port not sure if this makes a difference. What is Lallzyme EX and OptiRed and why would they be necessary? I have enoferm protect for my yeast not sure if that's the same as the stuff your talking about. I have 5 gals in a 6.5 gal fermenter if this make a difference at all. Last I really like superfruity and oaky wine and plan to use some kind of american oak. Are there any downsides to a cold soak or extended maceration I've never done either before?


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## ibglowin (Sep 23, 2014)

No it is not the same product(s). There is no hard evidence that cold soaking or extended maceration does anything to improve a wine. 

http://morewinemaking.com/products/optired.html?site_id=5

http://morewinemaking.com/products/lallzyme.html


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## WineQuest (Sep 23, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> No it is not the same product(s). There is no hard evidence that cold soaking or extended maceration does anything to improve a wine.
> 
> http://morewinemaking.com/products/optired.html?site_id=5
> 
> http://morewinemaking.com/products/lallzyme.html



I am so happy to hear someone else say this. In almost all cases pre ferment cold soak only extracts the easily extracted colors but the visual 'evidence' of color perpetuates this widely held belief. There are some minuscule benefits in a couple of wines but hardly worth the risks and effort in most cases. 

As far as post fermentation extended maceration there is some evidence that an overly tannic wine will have a tanning binding effect in the presence of the skins that creates long chain tannins from short chain tannins which reduces the astringency of the finished wine. Of course this has to be done with the seeds removed which is a pain in the a$$.


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## LeChat (Sep 27, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> There is no hard evidence that cold soaking or extended maceration does anything to improve a wine.





Suggested reading for you:

Álvarez, I., Aleixandre, J.L., García, M.J. and Lizama, V. 2006. Impact of prefermentative maceration on the phenolic and volatile compounds in Monastrell red wines. Analytica Chimica Acta, 563, 109–115.

Arnold, R.A. and Noble, A.C. 1979. Am. J. Enol. Vitic., 30:3, 179-181.

Baumes, R., Bayonove, C., Cordonnier, R., Torres, P. and Seguin, A. 1989. Rev. Fr. Oenol., 116, 6-11.

Canals, R. Llaudy, M. C., Valls, J., Canals, J. M. and Zamora, F. 2005. Influence of Ethanol Concentration on the Extraction of Color and Phenolic Compounds from the Skin and Seeds of Tempranillo Grapes at Different Stages of Ripening. Journal Agricultural Food and Chemistry, 53, 4019-4025.

Charoenchai, C., Fleet, G.H., Henschke, P.A. & Todd, B.E.N. 1997. Screening of Non-Saccharomyces Wine Yeast for the Presence of Extracellular Hydrolytic Enzymes. Australian Journal of Grape and Wine Research, 3, 2-8.

Couasnon, M.B. 1999. Rev. Fr. Oenol., 92, 26-30

Cue?nat, P. 1998. Rev. Fr. Oenol., 170, 53-57.

Durbourdieu, D., Ollivier Ch. and Boidron, J.N. 1986. Conn. Vigne Vin, 20:1, 53-76.

Feuillat, M. 1997. Rev. Fr. Oenol., 82, 29-31.

García-Romero, E., Pe?rez-Coello, M., Cabezudo, M.D., Sánchez-Mun?oz, G., Marti?n-Alvarez, P.J. 1999. Fruity flavor increase of Spanish Aire?n white wines made by brief fermentation skin contact. Food Science and Technology International, 5:2, 149-157.

Girard, B., Yuksel, D., Cliff, M.A., Delaquis, P., Reynolds, A.G. 2001. Vinification effects on the sensory, colour and GC profiles of Pinot noir wines from British Columbia. Food Research International, 34:6, 483-499.

Heatherbell, D.; Dicey, M.; Goldsworthy, S.; Vanhanen, L. 1994. Effect of Prefermentation Cold Maceration on the Composition, Color and Flavor of Pinot Noir Wine. In: Proceedings of the Fourth International Symposium on Cool Climate Viticulture & Enology, pp VI-10 to VI-17. Lincoln University, PO Box 84, Canterbury, New Zealand (1994).

Ough, C.S. 1969. Am. J. Enol. Vitic., 20:2, 93-100.

Ough, C.S. and Berg, H.W. 1971. Am. J. Enol. Vitic., 22:3, 194-198.

Parenti, A., Spugnoli, P., Calamai, L., Ferrari, S., Gori, C. 2004. Effects of cold maceration on red wine quality from Tuscan Sangiovese grape. European Food Research and Technology, 218, 4, 360-366.

Parley, A. 1997. The Effect of Pre-Fermentation Enzyme Maceration on the Extraction and Stability of colour in Pinot noir wine. http://www.thewinefly.com/. Accessed 10th May 2006.

Salinas, M.R., Garijo, J., Pardo, F., Zalacain, A. and Alonso, G.L. 2005. Influence of prefermentative maceration temperature on the colour and the phenolic and volatile composition of rosé wines. Alonso. Journal of the Science of Food and Agriculture, 85, 1527–1536.

Sánchez Palomo, E., Pérez-Coello, M.S., Díaz-Maroto, M.C., González Viñas, M.A. and Cabezudo, M.D.. 2006. Contribution of free and glycosidically-bound volatile compounds to the aroma of muscat ‘‘a petit grains’’ wines and effect of skin contact. Food Chemistry 95, 279–289.

Singleton, V.L., Sieberhagen, H.A., de Wet, P. and Van Wyk, C.J. 1975. Am. J. Enol. Vitic., 26:2, 62-69.

Watson, B.; Price, S.; Ping Chen, H.; Young, S.; Lederer, C.; McDaniel, M. Fermentation Practices in Pinot Noir: Effects on Color, Phenols, and Wine Quality. In: Proceedings of the Fourth International Symposium on Cool Climate Viticulture & Enology, pp VI-18 to VI-23. Department of Food Science and Technology, Oregon State University and Price Research Services and ETS Laboratories (1994).


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## Johnd (Sep 27, 2016)

Wow, that's a lot of research and typing for a two year old post.....


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## ibglowin (Sep 27, 2016)

Oh thats hilarious. I stand by my statement. 

I used the google to pull up one of the sources cited and found this gem.

*9) Inconsistent results*

_*The literature contains a number of contradictory accounts concerning the impact of cold maceration on wines.

Girard et al. (2001) found no significant difference in the sensory qualities between 15°C cold macerated Pinot Noir wine and the equivalent control wine. However, Couasnon (1999) found 50% increased extraction of tannins and anthocyanins from Merlot and Cabernet grapes using dry ice (solid CO2) at a temperature of 4°C for ten days. Cuénat (1998) also found increased tannic extraction due to cold maceration, but no significant difference in anthocyanin content. Feuillat (1997) found a significant increase in extraction and chemical parameters from cold maceration at 10-15°C on Pinot Noir grapes. Álvarez et al. (2006) found increased polyphenolic content and aromatic content, slightly decreased colour hue and slightly increased anthocyanin concentrations in Monastrell (a.k.a. Mourvèdre and Mataro) grape cold macerated wines. Parenti et al. (2004) found increased colour hue and generally increased colour intensity, increased flavour intensity, complexity, tannins, and perceived balance in Sangiovese grape cold macerations at 0 and 5°C. Cold maceration with dry ice (solid CO2) resulted in increased total polyphenol, flavonoid and anthocyanidin extraction as maceration temperature decreased, however this relationship did not hold for liquid N2 macerations at the same temperature. In some studies on white grape musts, 12 hour skin contact resulted in musts with excessive phenolic extraction (Ough, 1969; Ough and Berg, 1971; Singleton et al., 1975), whilst in others a positive result was obtained without excessive bitterness or extraction - 16 hours was determined the best in one study on Chardonnay (Arnold and Noble, 1979).*_


I wait 24 hours after crush which allows the must plenty of time to bleed out, release potassium in the skins and come to an equilibrium so you can make any adjustments necessary. It also allows the must time to warm up a bit especially if the grapes were held in a refer truck for days while being transported across the country. With todays enzymes and yeast products like Lallzyme EX and Opti-Red, there is just no need for cold soaking IMHO.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 27, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> It also allows the must time to warm up a bit especially if the grapes were held in a refer truck for days while being transported across the country.



Heh heh. 'Refer truck'. You did say that you get your grapes in Colorado. It's all making sense now...


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## ibglowin (Sep 27, 2016)

LOL

Refer is short for Refrigerated...... 



Boatboy24 said:


> Heh heh. 'Refer truck'. You did say that you get your grapes in Colorado. It's all making sense now...


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 27, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> LOL
> 
> Refer is short for Refrigerated......



Yes, I know. But it isn't as funny that way.


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## JohnT (Sep 27, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Yes, I know. But it isn't as funny that way.


 
Ja-Ja mon! He makin de Jamaican wine!


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## LeChat (Sep 27, 2016)

Johnd said:


> Wow, that's a lot of research and typing for a two year old post.....



You know you are talking to real gems when you point out information and the person attacks you personally.

Why don't you go **** yourself you troll?


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## LeChat (Sep 27, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Oh thats hilarious. I stand by my statement.
> 
> I used the google to pull up one of the sources cited and found this gem.
> 
> ...



Inconsistent is not the same as ineffective. 

There are several factors at play here and concluding that it does nothing based on personal experience when there is a significant body of research to the contrary is... not exactly being accurate...


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## jgmann67 (Sep 27, 2016)

LeChat said:


> Why don't you go **** yourself you troll?




Throttle back, dude... Beyond the physical impossibility (I mean, I tried once, but I kept falling off the couch), that kind of vitriol makes for bad karma (bad wine, too).


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## LeChat (Sep 27, 2016)

jgmann67 said:


> Throttle back, dude... Beyond the physical impossibility (I mean, I tried once, but I kept falling off the couch), that kind of vitriol makes for bad karma (bad wine, too).



Trolls are very flexible, they can do it while sipping tea...

Yeah sorry, I just don't understand why someone would jump in a thread and start sliging insults because someone else posted information...


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## jgmann67 (Sep 27, 2016)

LeChat said:


> Yeah sorry, I just don't understand why someone would jump in a thread and start sliging insults because someone else posted information...




Because it's 2 years since the last posting. JohnT can speak for himself. But, I think he was being funny. I mean, I laughed... Mostly because I've unknowingly revived a zombie thread a few times myself. Stuff happens. We "oops" and move on.


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## Mismost (Sep 27, 2016)

LeChat said:


> You know you are talking to real gems when you point out information and the person attacks you personally.
> 
> Why don't you go **** yourself you troll?




LeChat...calling troll, really? 16,000 posts to less than 200? Troll? The guy is anything but a troll!

No need to be offended if someone disagrees with you. It's a forum...it's a give and take...live and learn...we don't have to agree. I want to hear all sides.

May I suggest you drink a glasss of wine instead of doing so much heavy reading about it...just chill out...Lechat, just talk it out..it'll be OK. Do a little personal cold soak, chill.


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## ibglowin (Sep 27, 2016)

Wow. He was just escorted out the side door.


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## Johnd (Sep 28, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Wow. He was just escorted out the side door.



Wow!! Looks like I missed all of the excitement. I stand by my statement also, it was a lot of typing and research in response to an old thread. Shame that he got himself banned, it's an interesting, but apparently controversial topic.


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## jgmann67 (Sep 28, 2016)

First rule of forum decorum:


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## JohnT (Sep 28, 2016)

jgmann67 said:


> Because it's 2 years since the last posting. JohnT can speak for himself. But, I think he was being funny. I mean, I laughed... Mostly because I've unknowingly revived a zombie thread a few times myself. Stuff happens. We "oops" and move on.


 
Did you mean JohnT or johnD?? 

It is a real shame that he was banned. 

Do not get me wrong, there is no call for direct insults. It is very easy for someone to lose it when egos and passions are in the mix. I do not think that johnd was trying to insult lechat, but apparently that is how he took it and lechat reacted in a very inappropriate way and a banning was called for. It just seems so unfortunate.

I guess what I am asking is this.. Does anyone feel like this might never have happened if we were a little kinder in calling him out? Perhaps? perhaps not? IDK.


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## Johnd (Sep 28, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Did you mean JohnT or johnD??
> 
> It is a real shame that he was banned.
> 
> ...



Yes, it was me, not JohnT, and I certainly was not personally attacking lechat or his position regarding cold soaking. There was no unkindness intended in my comment, and I still do not read any into even now. Perhaps my wit was a bit dry, but indeed, a lot of effort went into the post, and he probably didn't realize it was two years old. I've commented on old threads and not been offended when it was pointed out to me. 
Had he said "yes, it's an old thread, but I'd like to debate the validity of the information based on my research", a healthy discussion would have proceeded, as it always does here. Calling me a troll and telling me to "go **** myself" violated the forum rules, stifled the conversation, and got him banned, that was his choice. If anyone feels my comment was in poor taste, I apologize.


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## Johnd (Sep 28, 2016)

Just to add some clarity, and give credit where due, I got a very nice note from lechat that I don't think he'd mind me sharing a clip from it. Apparently he misread my post and said: 

"I misread your initial reply. I read "Wow, that's a lot of research and typing for a two year old TO post" instead of "Wow, that's a lot of research and typing for a two year old post."

It seems that he thought I was referring to him as a two year old, not to the post as being two years old. I'd have been ticked off too. 

Perhaps one of our moderators could reconsider the ban??


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## Mismost (Sep 28, 2016)

I didn't say *YOU* beat your wife.

I didn't say you beat *YOUR* wife.

Easy to misread typing without voice infliction...two statements above are exactly the same words...two different meanings. I had a small one LETTER mistake in an text message (should have said SEND instead of SENT).....SENT, everybody thought I had handled the problem...wrong...I wanted the office to send the customer an email...kinda got nasty before it got funny.

Couldn't this be a similar condition? I mean what does **** really mean? I don't like bans. I do like a good verbal tennis match!


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## jgmann67 (Sep 28, 2016)

Mismost said:


> Couldn't this be a similar condition? I mean what does **** really mean? I don't like bans. I do like a good verbal tennis match!



When **** pops up, it's usually because the forum software censored the word you actually used. I'm pretty sure he actually said that word that starts in "F" and ends in "U-C-K"... and I don't mean 'firetruck.'

You can't last on a forum (any forum) with thin skin and a willingness to go from zero-to-'screw you' at the drop of a hat. Be nice. It's not that hard.

My two bits: This isn't my house. I'm a guest here. So, if the homeowner says he'd prefer if I didn't smoke cigars in his living room, I'm obliged to obey or go elsewhere. By the same token, if I didn't know that I couldn't smoke my cigar indoors, a simple, "please don't do that here," is in order. I'll stop. No need to kick me out.


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## ceeaton (Sep 28, 2016)

It is very easy to misread a post and get angry. When I do, especially if I've been drinking, which is often, I try and not reply until the next day and most times I find no need to reply because I took the comment/suggestion wrong. There was a post a while back on the kit thread touting all grape wine making, I took it wrong and posted things I shouldn't have. Since then I try and follow my own advice above.

I have to watch when I'm kidding around on here since most of you don't know me, if you did, you'd realize how full of crap I usually am.


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## Johnd (Sep 28, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> It is very easy to misread a post and get angry. When I do, especially if I've been drinking, which is often, I try and not reply until the next day and most times I find no need to reply because I took the comment/suggestion wrong. There was a post a while back on the kit thread touting all grape wine making, I took it wrong and posted things I shouldn't have. Since then I try and follow my own advice above.
> 
> I have to watch when I'm kidding around on here since most of you don't know me, if you did, you'd realize how full of crap I usually am.



LOL!! I was a part of that grape thingy on the kit section of the forum. Wonder if I have two strikes now?? I'm a pretty easy going jokester type, though I'm pretty serious about my winemaking and drinking. Learned long ago the perils of written words, whether in an email, text, forum, it's easy to take or be taken out of context, but that's how we have to communicate here.


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## mennyg19 (Sep 28, 2016)

All I see going on here is Johnd making problems...


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 28, 2016)

mennyg19 said:


> All I see going on here is Johnd making problems...



There does seem to be a common thread...


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## Steve_M (Sep 28, 2016)

So Johnd is now known as he who stirs the pot!


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