# Brew Belt Qustions



## derunner (Oct 12, 2012)

Brew Belt Questions

First let m say I tried to search on brew belt, but for some reason it finds a lot of post not relatd to brew belts.

My basement has now dropped below the ideal fermentation temperature and I have some wines I plan to start then next couple weeks so I have bought a Brewers Best/Vintners Best Brew Belt like the one shown here







My Question, the informtion with the brew belt says not to use below SG 1.010. This i generally the level where kits have you rack to a carboy for secondary fermentation. Should you only use a belt during primary fermentation? I have a batch now that was still doing a lot of fermentation during the first week in he secondary fementation in the carboy.

It also says to not use on a glass fermentor, but I see lots of picture of them on glass carboys. Is glass ai issue? Has anyone had a failure? My lhbs said to put a towel unerneath it, but I wonder about that advice. Does anyone have advice on this? And if you do use them on a glass carboy, do you stop when you no longer see air bubbles in he air lock?

Thanks


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## Julie (Oct 13, 2012)

I have used brew belts on glass with no trouble.

If you are fermenting in your basement, make sure you have your carboys up off the basement floor or have carpet underneath them. And do not look at the airlock to determent whether or not you still have fermentation, take a hydrometer reading.


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## derunner (Oct 13, 2012)

Julie said:


> I have used brew belts on glass with no trouble.
> 
> If you are fermenting in your basement, make sure you have your carboys up off the basement floor or have carpet underneath them. And do not look at the airlock to determent whether or not you still have fermentation, take a hydrometer reading.



Thanks, Julie, I'll check with a hydrometer. Though what do you make of the manufacturer's point about stopping use of the belt at 1.010? I would think a lot of fermentation is still going on at 1.010.

I checked the belt's temperature with an infared thermometer and it shows the belt is 85F where it contacts the glass, but each place it goes over a ridge, it is 99F. So a smooth carboy would probably be best for heat distribution, but all of mine have the squares. Maybe this is why they don't recommnd them for glass.


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## Julie (Oct 13, 2012)

Actually, I ferment to dry in a bucket. I don't normally use a brew belt but I make my wine in a basement like you do. I'll use the brew belt if it gets chilly which it has the last few days and the brew belt is on until fermentation is down to around 1.006, I snap the lid down and sometimes I leave the brew belt on and sometimes I take it off, it depends on how fast the fermentation is going. I have a chardonnay going right now and after 2 weeks it is finally down to 1.006, I'm leaving the brew belt on this one.


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## mikefrommichigan (Feb 3, 2014)

*Brew Belt Question*

Just started using the Brewers Best/Vintners Best Brew Belt for the first time on Sunday. The product description states “_The Brew Belt is here to help. It will maintain a constant temperature for up to 8 days.”_
Does anyone know why they suggest to only use it for 8 days. What happens on day 9?


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## Elmer (Feb 3, 2014)

I use my brew belt on my primary bucket, and have used it on the carboy with no issues.
I dont know what happens on the 9th day, but I usually unplug it after 8 days and give it a day off.
However I no longer use it on carboys.

my basement is about 60 degrees. so to combat that I do the following in primary:
put the brew belt on the lower 1/4 of the bucket.
Wrap the upper 3/4 in a blanket or 2 and secure with a good bungie chord.
the primary usually stays around 68 to 72 during fermentation.

I usually wrap my carboys for secondary, keeps them warmish.

Make sure nothing is touching or covering the brew belt, because that could be a fire hazard!


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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Read your brew belt instructions. Do NOT wrap them or use them on glass.

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Glass, plastic, and air have different heat transfer properties. Wrapping it in a blanket or using it on glass will not guarantee more heat in the wine it only guarantees the surface temp of the brew belt will get hotter and eventually fail. Possibly causing a fire.

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Best I can tell is the 9 day rule is because of the warranty period or stated longevity of the brew belt. Anything that gets hot will eventually fail. If you think of a cycle, on for 9 off for 1, it can be considered an RMS value thus reducing the strain on the heating element and increasing it's lifespan.

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Trust me, I'm an Engineer!

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

:-D

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## sour_grapes (Feb 3, 2014)

GeoS said:


> Wrapping it in a blanket ... will not guarantee more heat in the wine it only guarantees the surface temp of the brew belt will get hotter



Care to elaborate on why you think that a hotter temperature (_ceteris paribus_) will not ineluctably result in more heat transfer?



GeoS said:


> Trust me, I'm an Engineer!



You'll have to do better than that!


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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Insulating the system makes it more adiobatic. Like a water heater. Energy (q) in is constant, the area and heat transfer coefficient are constant. The delta T is what changes.

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Think of the blanket as an insulator and the glass as an insulator. With a heat source in between them. Yes, the second law applies, however, how much time do you have before the system fails. Heat travels much better through some materials than others.

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## sour_grapes (Feb 3, 2014)

GeoS said:


> Energy (q) in is constant, the area and heat transfer coefficient are constant. The delta T is what changes.



If the heat transfer coefficient (to the wine) remains the same, and the delta-T increases, than the heat transferred increases (by definition of heat transfer coefficient h*delta-T = q).

Basically, more of q goes to the wine, and less to the outside world.

Using a blanket may or may not be a good idea from a longevity standpoint, but it certainly will result in an increase in heat flux to the wine.


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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Yes, but the glass also has a heat transfer coefficient and will act as an insulator that will limit the rate at which heat can be transfered to the wine. q=energy in watts where watts is joules/second. Joules is a measurement of energy.

What's important is what surface temp the heater can reach. It needs to be able to transfer heat through the glass and into the wine. It will not be able to transfer all of the heat instantly and if the outside of the heater is insulated where does the energy, manafistated as heat, go. It cannot all go into the glass and it cannot go through the blanket. 

Even if there is no blanket the heat energy must go into the air, however the side that is against the glass cannot transfer heat into the air so it tries to transfer it into the glass at a rate sufficient enough to keep the delta T within design. 

Work is the amount of energy used within a period of time. The power put into the heater via the electrical outlet is over a length of time. Entropy takes time. Which one wins. Thus the recommendation to not use the brew belt with glass. They cannot guarantee the heat transfer will be adequate enough to allow the heater to transfer the energy into the wine through the glass and maintain it's rated surface temp.

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Oh, and you forgot the area.

q = A * h *(T_hot - T_cold) for convection

For the glass it's conduction so
q = A * k * (T_hot - T_cold) / l

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## sour_grapes (Feb 3, 2014)

It seems to me that you are very carefully explaining to me in post 16 _why_ the temperature of the belt will go up when you cover it with a blanket. I fully agree. You also are very carefully explaining why that may be a bad idea as far as burning out the heater is concerned. I fully agree that this may be a problem.

The only aim I have is to correct the one statement you made that I believe to be incorrect, viz., your claim in post 8 that wrapping the brew belt in a blanket will not result in more heat going to the wine. It will certainly result in more heat transfer per unit time, at least until the heater breaks. 

Glass is not a perfect insulator, of course. For the reasons you carefully explicated in post 16, using a blanket will increase the surface temperature of the heater. As you explained in post 13, the coefficient of heat transfer into the wine will be (approximately) constant. Therefore, as day follows night, more heat will be transferred to the wine (due to the additional delta-T). 

As you point out, this could result in a shortened life of the heater. If your point was that, after the heater breaks, it stops delivering any heat at all, that is certainly _not_ the way I read your posts numbers 7 through 11.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 3, 2014)

GeoS said:


> Oh, and you forgot the area.
> 
> q = A * h *(T_hot - T_cold) for convection
> 
> ...



No, I was using the convention of q=heat flux (W/m^2). I used the word "heat flux" in post 15


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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Honestly, I was trying to explain it in layman's terms. I don't mind discussing these things with someone such as yourself who understands it. I find that if I get into these discussions with a non engineer their eyes gloss over. You are correct. Heat flux will be transfered into the wine. I just didn't want to give an impression that it was ok to do something that the instruction manual says not to. Unless of course you know what your doing.



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## moesagoodboy (Feb 3, 2014)

I use a thermowell, temperature controlller, and a fermwrap heater. Setting a temperature of say 73 degrees produces a surface temperature of 73 degrees (as measured by plastic temperature strips) and 73 degrees in the center of the liquid (as measured by the thermowell measured by the controller. I like the system but the fermwrap heater curls when not in use and you have to use tape to secure it. The picture is from Midwest Supplies. Its OK to use on both plastic and glass. As a side note, the first thermowell stainless tube that Midwest sent me leaked, so if you buy one, test it before using.

Joe


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## sour_grapes (Feb 3, 2014)

Okay, fair 'nuff.


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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

Unfortunately, my phone will not allow me to put the dot above the q

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## GeoS (Feb 3, 2014)

You are using the key component, a temp controller. Most people just buy the brew belt and plug it in because it's cheaper. This system does not regulate temp so I do NOT recommend using it contrary to it's instructions.

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## mikefrommichigan (Feb 4, 2014)

I have several brew belts and I like the idea of adding a temperature controller to control the temperature more accurately. I may also purchase a fermwrap heater to give a more even heat coverage.

Does anyone know if it is possible/advisable to use more than 1 brew belt or fermwrap heater with a temperature controller?


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## GeoS (Feb 4, 2014)

Not sure what an additional brew belt will get you besides getting to temp quicker if you are using a temp controller. Unless your using it in a cold room. If you look at the equations posted above you sent that as you raise energy (q) by adding the second brew belt what it does is raise the difference in temperature. If your room is say 70 F and one brew belt raises the temp by 10F then you get 80F. If you set the temp controller for 75F it will turn the brew belt on and off to maintain 75F. If you based a second brew belt you get 90F but the temp controller still turns it on and off to keep the temp at 75F.

On the other hand if your room is 60F and you have one brew belt you get 70F so your temp controller will not shut off. It will never reach a setting of 75F. If you use two brew belts you get 80F and your temp controller will turn on and off to regulate the temp at 75F.

I would say check your room temp and the brew belts temp difference (delta T) and size them from their. Just make sure your temp controller can handle the current in the two brew belts.

Current (I) in amps = Power (P) in watts / Volts (V) 

Where volts is typically 120 vac at the outlet in your house.
If you have 2 brew belts just add the two currents together.

I1 + I2 + I3........ +In

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## GeoS (Feb 4, 2014)

Also, I forgot to mention do NOT lay the brew belts on top of each other. They should not be allowed to touch each other and should be spaced at even intervals from each other. A ferm wrap typically takes up most of the buckets surface area so using two where they cannot touch each other is not really possible.

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## mikefrommichigan (Feb 4, 2014)

Sorry. I did not make my self clear. I want to ferment several different wines at a time, so attach a brew belt to each bucket.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 4, 2014)

What is the temp down in your basement? The reason I ask, is you may need nothing and it will work quite fine. I have fermented about 30 gallons down in my basement this winter. The temp in my basement is about 63 def F. It might be just a bit slower, but bit, I am talking adding a day or two. Also, for many wines, cooler will give you a much fruitier wine. I would suggest you check the yeasts you will be using and the lower end of the temp range and see if you really do need anything.

Oh and I don't worry about temp for getting rid of CO2, time is your friend for that.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 5, 2014)

mikefrommichigan said:


> Sorry. I did not make my self clear. I want to ferment several different wines at a time, so attach a brew belt to each bucket.



No, you really don't want to control a feedback loop using an input that is NOT in the loop! You could hope that both vessels behave the same, but I don't think it is worth it.


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## moesagoodboy (Feb 5, 2014)

*You can use multiple belts on one controller but...*

You can use multiple belts on one controller but with only one bucket will provide feedback. Right now in my basement I have one bucket Dragon's Blood and one bucket Skeeter Pee. The thermowell is in the Dragon's Blood because it is the quicker fermentor. It's holding at a steady 74 degrees. The Pee is at 72 degrees.

When I first started fermentation the thermowell was in the Pee with the temperature set at 74. The Pee wouldn't start but the Dragon's blood took off getting up to 78 to 80 degrees. At that point I switched the thermowell to the Dragon's Blood.

If you go with two fermentations on one controller make sure you use temperature strips on each bucket.

Joe


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## GeoS (Feb 5, 2014)

Remember, brew belts are designed to be used without a controller. Check the temp rise they specify and just monitor the bucket temp with a temp strip.

With both buckets in the same room, same room temp, the difference will be the actual wattage of the heater. If both are the same you should be fine using one controller. 

Just monitor the bucket temperatures with a temp strip like moose suggested. Again, all conditions should be equal. Same volume and n each bucket, same wattage heater, etc....

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## mikefrommichigan (Feb 5, 2014)

My basement is 64 degrees, and as this is only my second wine kit I wanted to get it into the suggested fermentation range 70 -75, and possible start a 3rd and 4th kit soon at the same time. As you say, slightly cooler temps may just take a day or 2 longer.
Lots more to learn.

Thanks


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## JetJockey (Feb 7, 2014)

Mike,
The fermentation temperature affects more than fermentation speed. It also changes the character slightly, i.e. the fruitiness or dryness. I use Lalvin EC-1118 yeast a lot. According to Lalvin's FAQ page:
How does changing the fermentation temperature change the “dry” or “fruity” character of my wine?

At warm fermentation temperatures, more esters and higher alcohols are produced than at colder temperatures, resulting in more fruity, floral flavors.​
On the Dragon Blood forum, it has also been noted that the fruitiness changes with fermentation temperature.


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## mikefrommichigan (Feb 7, 2014)

My basement room where I am making the wine is approx 64 deg. I used the brew belt for the first 24 hours to bring the wine up a few degrees. I wanted the room a little bit warmer so I found a small heater that I can control to boost the room temperature a few degrees. I attached the a temp strip to the buckets, as well as a thermostat in the room. It seems to be working out so far.


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## GeoS (Feb 8, 2014)

JetJockey said:


> Mike,
> The fermentation temperature affects more than fermentation speed. It also changes the character slightly, i.e. the fruitiness or dryness. I use Lalvin EC-1118 yeast a lot. According to Lalvin's FAQ page:
> How does changing the fermentation temperature change the “dry” or “fruity” character of my wine?
> 
> ...



Thanks Jet, I knew they type of yeast would change the flavors but I didn't realize the temp of fermentation would also. Always something to learn.

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## WineYooper (Feb 9, 2014)

I do some fermenting in the basement as well where it is about 60 in the winter and use a brew belt on my 7.9 gal primary. I have to wrap the primary with a towel over the brew belt for insulation and also put one on top just to be able to get the temp up above 70. Once ferment starts and the temp gets around 80 I unplug and then monitor the temp and plug back in when it starts to drop back close to 70, usually when it is approaching 1.010. I have been doing this for a few years now and have not had any issue with belt failure or poor wine quality. The key for me is monitoring the must temp and stirring twice a day and pushing the fruit down.


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## derunner (Feb 15, 2014)

My old thread got revived with a lot of interesting discussion.

My basement is 60F and I noticed tonight that my must was dropping in temperature with just one brew belt. I just pitched the yeast so it is not generating any heat yet. I added a second brew belt so it will be interesting what it stabilizes at.

Has anyone noticed how much the temperature of 6 gals of must is raised by 1 brew belt? I have not insulated my primary at all. Is one belt equal to a 10 degree temperature difference from room temperature?

I plan to start 16 gals in a 20 gal brute next week. I'm guessing I will need to use 3-4 belts with this much must and a 60F room.


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## GeoS (Feb 16, 2014)

I would use 3 or 4 brew belts. Think of it like boiling water. A low heat and a high heat will both boil water, however, the high heat will do it sooner. Also, a too low heat and the water will not boil, that's because the heat energy put in is transfered to the air. You need to put enough heat in to change the water temp and heat the air. And yes, you can insulate the system by putting towels around it, however, I still do not recommend that unless you are using a temp regulator and the brew belt instructions allow it. I would be concerned about the surface temp of the brew belts. Besides, my brew belt clearly stated Do NOT insulate.

And a bigger pot of water needs more heat to boil.

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## Runningwolf (Feb 16, 2014)

First off is this a white or red wine. If it's a white I wouldn't be using any additional heat. If it's a red I personally would never go over one heat belt. Of course you're going to have a large temperature swing during fermentation's (I am assuming you're fermenting). As your fermentation is slowing down the temperature drops. If you're just aging reds, again I would fore go the heat belt. This is just my personal opinion and what I do at home. My basement is the same temp as your's and even though I rarely use my belts at all anymore I still would recommend one for starting a fermentation in cold conditions..


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## derunner (Feb 16, 2014)

Runningwolf,

The 2 buckets I have going now are both white wine kits. (A Piesporter and a green apple Riesling) The kits say to keep the temperature in the 70-75 range. I figure once fermentation starts, I can unplug one belt and keep in that range.

The 16 gals I plan to do in the 20 gal Brute is the standard lemon skeeterpee. I think the acid of the lemon stresses the yeast so I figure I should get the temperature to something that is more optimum than 60F.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 16, 2014)

I agree with that and using a brute I can certainly see using several belts. Just not on a carboy with an ambient temp of 60°.


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## GeoS (Feb 16, 2014)

I have always had a hard time getting fermentation to start around 60°F. I have had to pitch the yeast twice. Every time I have had to do that I get the dreaded sulfur smell. I do a yeast starter too.

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## derunner (Feb 16, 2014)

my 2 fermentations are going well and now the temp is 78 on both buckets using an infrared thermometer. You can tell it is going well as the temperature at all levels of the bucket are about equal. Before it gets going, the temperature of the bucket is usually higher above the belt than below. I've now unplugged one belt on each bucket. Hopefully they will be able to maintain a 70+ temp with the fermentation going strong.


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