# Cold Stabilizing Questions



## Gekko4321 (Sep 8, 2011)

I want to cold stabilize a white wine-RJS EP SB. #1) How long and what temp do you rec? #2) Those who use vodka in airlocks (due to freezing), do you have any concerns about vodka getting into the wine? I note I see water drip sometimes from my current airlock. #3) Can I avoid having to do a carboy transfer and put carboy in with small amount of sediment in bottom? I prefer to not have to top up again and seems like fallout can just add to it. Thanks!


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## ibglowin (Sep 8, 2011)

(29°F to 39°F) for 10 to 14 days. I would not use an airlock but rather a solid stopper. Keep a close eye on the temp and rack and or filter it cold when you remove it from the freezer. It will contract when it freezes and expand when it warms up so watch it closely when it is allowed to warm back up!


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## Runningwolf (Sep 8, 2011)

I agree with what Mike said except I have a preference of 20-28* for a cold stabilizing temp. You can use a solid bung or an air lock with vodka. The vodka won't freeze or cause any problems if it did drip in your wine. I use a solid bung because with an air lock it is too high in my chest freeze. Rack your wine asap while it is cold (hint, place a towel under the new carboy as it will condensate a bit while warming back up).


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## RickC (Sep 8, 2011)

Icold stabilize at about 32-35F for 14 days. I normally use vodka but don't worry about a few drops getting into the wine.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 9, 2011)

It seems peoples preferences center around the freezing mark. Is there a pro/con to being below or over 32 degrees? I plan to filter with the Vinbrite which takes longer than just racking. Is there an urgency in getting the wine racked while still ice cold? Can I filter it then bottle right away or should I let it age a bit longer or at least warm to room temp?


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## rhoffart (Sep 10, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> It seems peoples preferences center around the freezing mark. Is there a pro/con to being below or over 32 degrees? I plan to filter with the Vinbrite which takes longer than just racking. Is there an urgency in getting the wine racked while still ice cold? Can I filter it then bottle right away or should I let it age a bit longer or at least warm to room temp?



I did a lot of research recently and found there is no correct time or temperature ... but if you compile all the numbers and time and average them out it came to about 28* for about 2 weeks. 

I think the key is to get the wine colder then it will ever get in the future. I have a freezer set at 28*and I will leave all future kits in for about 2 weeks.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 12, 2011)

What is the urgency to rack while still cold? Simply to avoid airlock pressure? Is it important to get wine off crystals before warming back to room temp? I am trying to evaluate whether to let it bulk age a little longer after CS.


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## ibglowin (Sep 12, 2011)

Exactly, what precipitates and falls out of solution at one temperature could dissolve and go back into solution at the warmer room temp. 

Always rack and or filter ASAP to get the tartaric acid crystals out just in case they decide to go back into solution.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 12, 2011)

Ok, great. Thx for that reply Mike. One followup question. Since filtering with Vinbrite can take 45 mins or so, should I rack first, then filter, before bottling or can I afford to wait that 45 mins knowing it is warming during that time frame? I am not sure how fast it warms up considering volume of liquid.


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## ibglowin (Sep 12, 2011)

Al long as there is no sediment that would plug your filter you should be good to go straight to filtering. If you have a small amount of fine sediment you can try not to disturb it until the very end if there is just a little dust on the bottom. 

If you just have crystals then you should be able to avoid them especially if you tilt the carboy and get them all on one side. They will not dissolve in the short time frame it takes to filter. And remember a white wine will always filter faster than a red wine. 30-40 mins vs 45-60 mins.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 12, 2011)

Would you filter then bottle straight away? Is it okay to bottle while wine is still chilled or should I wait a period of time? Thx Mike.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 12, 2011)

Remember you always want to bottle at room temperature. You can do as posted above but myself I prefer to rack and then filter later. This way I don't have to worrly about the sediment when racking and also I can filter when ever time permits if I've racked off of everything already.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 12, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> Would you filter then bottle straight away? Is it okay to bottle while wine is still chilled or should I wait a period of time? Thx Mike.



We posted at the same time. Once filtered bottle when ever you want as time permits. No hurry but do not do it until wine is room temperature.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 12, 2011)

Fantastic. Thanks Mike and Dan.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 24, 2011)

About to cold stabilize and note my fridge will not temp below 38 degrees. Can I still get crystals to drop out at this temp? Is the lowest temp achieved during CS the point which one is protected against crystals?


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## rhoffart (Sep 24, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> Would you filter then bottle straight away? Is it okay to bottle while wine is still chilled or should I wait a period of time? Thx Mike.



I would not bottle cold wine. I put cold wine in a barrel and as it warmed it overflowed for two days. I think it could expand enough to blow the cork.


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## ibglowin (Sep 24, 2011)

Your definitely on the upper end but it should work, might take longer to form (3-4 weeks) at that temp but its worth a shot. All CS does is speed up the natural process of crystal formation. I have not seen loads of crystals forming in my kit wines but I have small amounts in all of my Cellar Craft Showcase Reds that have gone through one winter (or more) where the temps in the winery are 55 for about 4-5 months or so.Have not seen it in any whites to date and some are 2 years old now.



Gekko4321 said:


> About to cold stabilize and note my fridge will not temp below 38 degrees. Can I still get crystals to drop out at this temp? Is the lowest temp achieved during CS the point which one is protected against crystals?


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 24, 2011)

Everything I read says RJ Spags EP wines throw off lots of crystals. I wonder if I pack bags of ice in with the carboy if the temp can be brought down to 29ish in the small fridge.


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## ibglowin (Sep 24, 2011)

Dry ice perhaps?


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 25, 2011)

I have a CC Showcase Zin I am making next so good to know about crystals there. Thanks for the continuing advice Mike.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 28, 2011)

So I started CS on Sunday. Plan to go 2 weeks. The wine is a RJ Spagnols EP Sauvignon Blanc. I have no choice but to use an outdoor mini fridge. I have noticed that with the thermostat turned all the way down I am ranging 30 to 40 degrees between day and night time. Is the fluctuation dangerous? I have heard temp flucs are undesirable in normal aging. Will this range achieve crystal formation and when should I start noticing it? My concern is the higher temp. I wonder if that may negate any formation. When and if it does form, when will I know I am done and how much crystal should I see in the bottom? Thx.


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2011)

Are we talking fridge temps or actual carboy temps. Hopefully your not seeing 10 degree change in your carboy temps each day. That would not be very good. I was going to say why don't you just hold off until Winter but then I remembered your in SD. Not much of a Winter really! 

Stick a thermometer on the side of that carboy and let us know what the temps are doing to the actual wine each day. 

If your going to see something I would think 3 weeks minimum at those temps. You may or may not. Keep us posted.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 28, 2011)

Fridge temps. Will sticking a therm to outside of carboy offer different since it is not really in the liquid? I will try it anyway!


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2011)

I use a digital thermometer (indoor/outdoor) and tape the thermocouple to the side with a kleenex folded over a couple times for some added insulation. It ends up being spot on compared to sticking a temp probe directly into the wine. You can also get one of the peel off temp strips like most people use on their primaries.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 28, 2011)

I just tried with the peel off to no avail. With the condensation on the carboy it will not stick. I assume the wine temp is not fluctuating as much. Would u agree? From your experience, is the wine itself likely to be colder than the fridge temps? And if so then are those the temps I am striving for between advised 29-37 degrees? For some reason I thought they were fridge temp numbers. When should I note crystal fallout?


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2011)

You still want to know what the temp in/on the carboy is. And keep track of its actual fluctuations each day.

Get some duck tape and an inexpensive indoor/outdoor digital thermometer.


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2011)

Every wine is different but you should see something if its going to happen by 3 weeks time frame. 



Gekko4321 said:


> When should I note crystal fallout?


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## rhoffart (Sep 28, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> I use a digital thermometer (indoor/outdoor)





I use the same and put the probe between an insulating jacket and the carboy. I bought the thermostat at Lowes for about 6 bucks.









You can kinda see the thermostat in the picture below right next to the controller.


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 28, 2011)

It turns out I do have a therm with a probe! I just realized I had one in the garage. Does measuring the glass of the carboy though offer a good enough indicator as to what is going on inside? I would almost think the exterior glass would be similar to outside air. Rick, you got my mind working with those pics. Would that insulation jacket make my carboy colder and more stable and achieve what I am trying to do?


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## rhoffart (Sep 28, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> Rick, you got my mind working with those pics. Would that insulation jacket make my carboy colder and more stable and achieve what I am trying to do?


 If I open the freezer in a 100 degree garage I didn't want that warm air hitting the glass.


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2011)

As long as you put some insulation over the probe and tape it on the glass so its tight you will get a very accurate and true reading of the wines temp in the carboy. 

I have done the test that prove it!


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 28, 2011)

I dont have any insulation here. Can I use anything else common around the house? Blanket? Plastic?


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## rhoffart (Sep 28, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> I dont have any insulation here. Can I use anything else common around the house? Blanket? Plastic?



that's easy ... anything fluffy ... paper towel, cotton balls, toilet paper, maxi pads, diaper ...


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## ibglowin (Sep 28, 2011)

A little Owens Corning goes a long way!


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## rhoffart (Sep 28, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> A little Owens Corning goes a long way!



oh come on I wanted to see a pic of a maxi pad taped to the side of a carboy


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 29, 2011)

Just found out the wife and I are having a girl today (our first kid) so that comment is funny yet scary now...


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## ibglowin (Sep 29, 2011)

Hey congrats!


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## rhoffart (Sep 29, 2011)

congratulations ... better get busy making wine, your going to need it in about 2 years


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## Runningwolf (Sep 29, 2011)

Congratulations, thats wonderful news!


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## Gekko4321 (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks all for the congrats. Now you know why I am scrambling to get as much info as I can on this new hobby! I will be otherwise preoccupied in a few months and would like to be simply 'aging'...


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## grapeman (Sep 30, 2011)

Oh you will soon be aging faster than you want. Congrats.


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## John Prince (Oct 4, 2011)

Just to beat this in my head.

After I Cold Stabilize, 
Room temperature,
Degass
Filter
Bottle

No bulk aging?


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

It should be degassed before you attempt to cold stabilize.


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

Cold stabilization is the last thing you would do before you filter. You want to filter cold because if you let the wine warm up to room temp some of the crystals that have precipitated out could go back into solution.

Never bottle cold, though only at room temp!


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

My methodafter fermentation;




1) Degas and add fining agents
2) Let the wine clear 2-4 weeks
3) Rack the wine off any sediment - test SO2
4) Cold Stabilize for 2 weeks at 28 degrees
5) Rack and Filter while still cold to remove crystals and polish wine - test SO2
6) Bulk age in carboy 
7) Bottle


This is my process as of now.


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

Looks good. I would remove "test SO2" from step 5. 

Make test SO2 its own step and move down to just before bottling.


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

rhoffart said:


> My methodafter fermentation;
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Ok, 10 easy steps


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

11) Take Excedrin the next AM......


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 4, 2011)

So 10 days in on a planned 14 day cold stabilization. Temps seem to bounce between 30 and 40 degrees. Not one sign of crystal fallout. Should I have seen something by now?


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## grapeman (Oct 4, 2011)

You may have a kit that doesn't precipitate out crystals-not a lot of the kits do. If none after two weeks I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 4, 2011)

I have a RJS EP Sauvignon Blanc. My concern is the temp range. I can clear out the wife's deep freezer if I need to hold the temp lower. Just trying to figure if I did enough or if I need to try something else.


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

I think you guys are making much ado about nothing. I have made 8 high end white wine kits and not a single one has dropped a single crystal and some are now over two years old. The CC Showcase reds are a different story. Every one has dropped a small amount of fine wine diamonds after going through about the 18 month time range (including a winter where the temps in the winery are ~55 degrees for 5-6 months)


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

That's funny Mike ... I have made 4 MM kits and the all dropped a bunch. The picture attached has about 1/4 inch in the valley's of the carboy.


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

Were those the Meg or Masters kits? My Mosti kits were the Renaissance. Still have two bottles of the supposed "Aussie" Chard with not a single drop as well as 2 bottle of the Pinot Grigio.


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Were those the Meg or Masters kits? My Mosti kits were the Renaissance. Still have two bottles of the supposed "Aussie" Chard with not a single drop as well as 2 bottle of the Pinot Grigio.





Two of each ... all whites. I got so much in the Meg that is 18 months old ... I'll never make another white without CS step. I will not give friends/family wine that drops crystals.







Here is a pic of that one.


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

At least you know there is a difference in the quality of the juices on those expensive kits!


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

I'm still a greenie but I will be moving up to frozen jucie and/or grapes soon. I'm just cutting teeth on these kits.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 4, 2011)

I realize I am beating a dead horse but one key thing never seems to get answered. Can someone with crystal dropout experience tell me when the crystals start to drop--right away, 10 days in? And how long do they continue to drop once it starts--one day, full 2 weeks?


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> I realize I am beating a dead horse but one key thing never seems to get answered. Can someone with crystal dropout experience tell me when the crystals start to drop--right away, 10 days in? And how long do they continue to drop once it starts--one day, full 2 weeks?



I don't know ... I put it in the freezer and did not take it out (in the picture above) for 10 days. I don't know when it started to drop -or- if I left it in longer would it drop more ??? 

It's a small freezer and I would have to lift it in and out every day. 

I do know I can put my 18 month old wine in the wine cooler and in 3 days there will be crystals in the bottle. I guess I can run a test with one bottle. In fact I'll go put one in the refrigerator right now.


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## rhoffart (Oct 4, 2011)

Day 0 - Test
Kit - Mosti Mondiale Meglioli Riesling
Wine was filtered
Bottled 10-5-2009
Place in Home refrigerator - Set point 39 degrees


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## ibglowin (Oct 4, 2011)

This wine has been bottled for 2 years?


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## rhoffart (Oct 5, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> This wine has been bottled for 2 years?





Yes, almost








On my Log Blog it is (B3) the third batch I ever made.


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## ibglowin (Oct 5, 2011)

Geez where you been hiding out for the last 2 years!


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## rhoffart (Oct 5, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> Geez where you been hiding out for the last 2 years!





Well I thought kit wine was going to be crap. I made a few and stopped. Put it in the closet and forgot about it. Wife asked me about two months ago "when can we drink that wine you made" we opened a bottleand was shocked on how good it was. Now I'm hooked.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 5, 2011)

Great story. Thanks for being the test guinea pig for us all. I cannot believe with all the advice I get on CS no one knows the answer to my questions. Maybe all do what you do Rick. I check on mine once a day for a split sec so as to not lose too much cold.


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## ibglowin (Oct 5, 2011)

Scott,

Every wine is different and will thus react differently to the cold stabilization process. The best answer we can give you is still a guesstimate based on our own experiences and the literature.

If you can get your wine down below 25 degrees you should see crystal fallout within about 3 days. If your only down around 38 degrees it will take weeks and more than likely 2-3 weeks to happen.



Gekko4321 said:


> I cannot believe with all the advice I get on CS no one knows the answer to my questions.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 5, 2011)

That's what I was looking for. I have to get colder. I am going nowhere right now. Do you think my SO2 is okay without any additions at this point? My last add was at clearing/stabilizing, which was part of the kit, and about 6 weeks ago. I would rather wait till crystal fallout to check SO2 but not sure if cold affects levels more or less.


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## John Prince (Oct 5, 2011)

1) Degas and add fining agents
2) Let the wine clear 2-4 weeks
3) Rack the wine off any sediment 
4) Cold Stabilize for 2 weeks at 28 degrees
5) Rack and Filter while still cold to remove crystals and polish wine 
6) Bulk age in carboy
7) Bottle

I went back and checked my notes. I did degass and added fining agents. I'll wait another week then bulk age. I'm glad I started taking better notes.


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## ibglowin (Oct 5, 2011)

Cold will not effect SO2 levels. Make sure you are topped up and stoppered or under airlock with vodka or sulfite solution. I have kept wine in bulk age for 6 months stoppered and still be within range for SO2 levels.



Gekko4321 said:


> That's what I was looking for. I have to get colder. I am going nowhere right now. Do you think my SO2 is okay without any additions at this point? My last add was at clearing/stabilizing, which was part of the kit, and about 6 weeks ago. I would rather wait till crystal fallout to check SO2 but not sure if cold affects levels more or less.


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## grapeman (Oct 5, 2011)

Gekko4321 said:


> I realize I am beating a dead horse but one key thing never seems to get answered. Can someone with crystal dropout experience tell me when the crystals start to drop--right away, 10 days in? And how long do they continue to drop once it starts--one day, full 2 weeks?






Nobody can answer this because such an answer does not exist. Every wine is different, so every time the results differ, even within the same kits. I drop mine into the low 20's and leave there for a month. If a wine is going to drop crystals it will have done so by then.


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## rhoffart (Oct 6, 2011)

Day 1
There are a few small crystals


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 6, 2011)

Wow. Already? 11 days in with temps in 30's and I cannot get any to drop.


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## rhoffart (Oct 6, 2011)

Day 2
There are more but the iPhone picture looked the same. Here is a shot with a macro lens ...


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## ibglowin (Oct 6, 2011)

Nice shot!


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 6, 2011)

Good call Mike. You can put that on a wall and make people wonder what it is! My debate currently is leaving the carboy in 30-40 degree fridge for another 2 weeks or clearing out the deep freezer for a 2 week run sub 30. With no crystals I feel like I am wasting time and I am concerned over temp range.


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## ibglowin (Oct 6, 2011)

You are not hurting the wine! Its bulk aging at 38 degrees at the moment. 

Its happy, you should be as well!


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## PeterZ (Oct 7, 2011)

Remember that cold causes the crystals to form. The goal of cold stabilizing is to prevent crystal formation in the bottle while it is in the fridge. If you have no crystals after two weeks in the fridge at 30-40F, then once you bottle, if you put a bottle in the fridge and drink it within a week you will have no crystals.


I have never cold stabilized (not equipped for it) and have had only one kit throw crystals.


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## rhoffart (Oct 7, 2011)

PeterZ said:


> I have never cold stabilized (not equipped for it) and have had only one kit throw crystals.





By chance was it a MM 23L kit? I have my 5th MM 23L kit in the freezer (in a carboy)and last night I checked it and it also has dropped crystals. That's 5 out of 5 ...


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 7, 2011)

That logic makes perfect sense Peter but I wonder why so many say their whites (reds too) throw crystals. Including the RJS EP SB I am making. I do want to proudly hand out my first white wine and crystals is not something I want fam/friends seeing in this new winemakers product. I could quit now and bottle but if crystals form in 6-9 months and I could have done some measure to stop it then I would be extremely bummed.


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## rhoffart (Oct 9, 2011)

Ok, day 5 ... I think this experiment is over because we drank the wine.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 10, 2011)

That is remarkable Rick. I can't believe how much and how fast the crystals formed. Hope this is not a commentary on the quality of my juice! Thanks for conducting the experiment.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 11, 2011)

Oh sweet irony and royal pain... I clear out the deep freezer and find that at the highest setting the temp only gets as high as 10 degrees. So fridge/freezer does not get low enough. Deep freezer does not get high enough. My search for 20-25 lies dashed on the rocks. To those that state they use deep freezers to accomplish CS, how do you do it?? I thought I had a pretty good Kenmore.


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## ibglowin (Oct 11, 2011)

If this is a chest (or upright) type freezer of sorts just get one of the plug in thermostats like Rick has on his chest freezer. They will not work on a side by side fridge/freezer combo. Must be a freezer only model.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 11, 2011)

Any advice on a specific brand? I am looking and notice most range from 45 degrees to higher which would not work. I assume this device can trick my deep freezer into higher temps I seek?


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## ibglowin (Oct 11, 2011)

The one that Fine Vine Wines sells should work just fine.

It says refrigerator but they work for either freezer or fridge. They work by cutting the power all together when the set temp is reached using another thermocouple that you stick inside the freezer. 

Give George a call and he will confirm that this should do the trick.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 11, 2011)

George's has a range that starts at 30 degrees. A few reviews elsewhere indicate it does not get that low and has wide range flucs. That is my exact problem currently. I see a nicer one online that has range going as low as minus 30. Question is this. If my max setting on an outside fridge yields 33-40 range, how does this unit make it go say 25-29? I get on deep freezer it would cut off compressor til temp rises high enough. How does it make the fridge colder? How does it tell the compressor to stay on thru a simple plug? I am learning as I go so appreciate the understanding.


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## ibglowin (Oct 11, 2011)

Hopefully Rick will chime in here since he was one hooked up to a chest freezer and we saw visual proof that his is controllable and set to ~ 25 degrees.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 11, 2011)

Yeah. I get how it works for freezer. It just cuts power. For the investment (yet another) I need it to work for my fridge. How does a plug in device tell the compressor, which is already answering to its own internal thermostat, that it needs to stay on?


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## ibglowin (Oct 11, 2011)

There is no way a fridge will go that cold. Most of the people using these on fridges are beer makers or cheese makers that want it to go HIGHER than normal ~40-50 degrees. So same principal. It cuts the power until the temps rise to that set point and then turns the entire unit back on.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 11, 2011)

Makes sense but what confused me is one thermostat I saw that says this: "when hooked up to a refrigerator, it turns the compressor on when the ambient temperature rises above your programmed temperature." I cannot logically think how it could do that. My fridge has shown me 31 degrees. I just need another 2-6 degrees cooler. The product above seems perfect but I wonder what I am missing.


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## Gekko4321 (Oct 11, 2011)

My best guess is that statement is true but only at the max capability of the fridge. If this wine did not throw crystals then my dilemma is over, but then again aren't high end wines supposed to throw crystals? Is there a chance when the temps in my fridge get to 32 the crystals form and then when it ranges up to 42 they re-absorb back into the wine?


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