# How to correct low pH and TA



## SLM (Oct 8, 2021)

Picking up CS next week. Vineyard data shows Brix 25.1, Acid 0.46, pH 3.26.

If my readings are similar, is it possible to raise both? If not, what would be your focus?


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 9, 2021)

The purpose for pH is to create a safe environment that keeps out contamination. The ideal is 3.2 to 3.3 so why would you change it?

The purpose of TA is to provide depth of sensation when the wine is finished and y’all are serving it. This is a balancing act between *tannin*/ *sugar*/ *acid* therefore possibly change adjust at bottling time.
I would love to have those numbers all the time, they translate into an extremely good tasting ($100) wine which should balance when served dry, , , , and as a frequent country wine maker if it tastes balanced dry I could skip the K sorbate addition.


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## BarrelMonkey (Oct 9, 2021)

What @Rice_Guy said... it looks to me like you are in a good place. Plus, acidity is likely to rise a bit as you go through fermentation. I would be wary of changing anything before then, even though post-fermentation acid adjustments are more perilous.

I recently found this article on the Vinmetrica website which does a nice job of describing pH, TA and when to adjust them.


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## SLM (Oct 9, 2021)

Thanks all. I was under the impression that I wanted pH 3.4-3.6. I've been reading a lot, maybe not enough!


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## stickman (Oct 9, 2021)

I haven't seen pH and TA like this for Cab, not impossible but it is rare, so you really have to be careful of what numbers to trust. pH often increases due to an increase of potassium after a few days on the skins, but again this is all variable depending on the grapes and where grown etc. Obviously you'll know more once you test for yourself.


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## AaronSC (Oct 9, 2021)

I would test this again. It's definitely not impossible but weird for Cab. I have seen hybrids and some Italian white grapes (Fiano is one) show low acid and low pH, but not Cab (in my experience in CA and NY grapes)


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## David Violante (Oct 10, 2021)

BarrelMonkey said:


> I recently found this article on the Vinmetrica website which does a nice job of describing pH, TA and when to adjust them.


Great article thank you!


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## Johnd (Oct 10, 2021)

SLM said:


> Thanks all. I was under the impression that I wanted pH 3.4-3.6. I've been reading a lot, maybe not enough!


You’re reading is just fine, if your CS is in that range, roll with it. As others have said, it’ll be interesting to see the real numbers when you get it home, TA is probably about what would be expected, but pH is expected higher, at least for warmer areas of California. If your grapes hail from a cooler location, those numbers might be spot on. Where are you sourcing your fruit? Keep us posted when it gets in and you’ve run your tests.


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## SLM (Oct 10, 2021)

Grapes are from Washington. And now I see from the chart that the numbers can fluctuate.

Gamache Vineyards - Block G.3 (Cab Sauv )


Sample Date​Brix​Acid​pH​Sample Type​9 Oct (yesterday)​25.20​0.44​3.43​Cluster Sample​6 Oct (4 days ago)​25.10​0.46​3.26​Cluster Sample​2 Oct (8 days ago)​24.70​0.72​3.35​Cluster Sample​29 Sep (11 days ago)​24.70​0.69​3.36​Cluster Sample​25 Sep (2 weeks ago)​23.70​0.59​3.46​Cluster Sample​22 Sep (3 weeks ago)​24.00​0.77​3.18​Cluster Sample​18 Sep (3 weeks ago)​23.30​0.72​3.15​Cluster Sample​


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## Nebbiolo020 (Oct 10, 2021)

SLM said:


> Grapes are from Washington. And now I see from the chart that the numbers can fluctuate.
> 
> Gamache Vineyards - Block G.3 (Cab Sauv )
> 
> ...


If the grapes are watered that causes fluctuation


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## SLM (Oct 13, 2021)

My test results:
Brix 27.5
pH 3.8
TA .54
Will dilute with acidulated water. Then what? Test again? Or should I expect to add acid?


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## CDrew (Oct 13, 2021)

Those are not bad numbers. A water/acid correction could get you to 25 brix and pH 3.65 easily. That's where I'd want to be.

And, I think you'll be adding some tartaric acid. Maybe like 1.5gm/liter of finished wine.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 3, 2021)

I have a problem with my Ph and need some serious help. I have six 6 gallon carboys with Petite Sirah, Syrah, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Chardonnay and Merlot all bought at Gino Pinto. Juice buckets. AF fermentation is done and on October 1st I started MLF. By Thanksgiving it was stuck. Today I checked the ph and the results aren't good: 3.00, 3.17, 2.94, 3.06, 3.02 and 2.94. Same order as above for the grape. How do I correct this? There's a "hint" of flatness in the taste. What can I use and quantity to correct this? First time I have this problem. Specially with Gino's product.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 3, 2021)

Those values all seem improbably low, and in conflict with the flat taste. I am questioning your _p_H meter's calibration.

What does a commercial wine measure with your instrument?


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## Rice_Guy (Dec 4, 2021)

first answer is that the numbers don’t matter, taste is why we have the rules about target pH, do you have a TA reading? Taste and TA are correlated not taste and pH ,,,, ex colas come in at pH 2 and citrus soda at pH 2.5.
next answer is that CO2 will push the pH down, try heating an ounce in the microwave for 45 seconds, stir to get the CO2 out, cool to room temp and rerun pH number
@sour_grapes has another good answer, check your meter on other foods


Mario Dinis said:


> the ph and the results aren't good: 3.00, 3.17, 2.94, 3.06, 3.02 and 2.94. Same order as above for the grape. How do I correct this? There's a "hint" of flatness in the taste. What can I use and quantity to correct this? .


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 4, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Those values all seem improbably low, and in conflict with the flat taste. I am questioning your _p_H meter's calibration.
> 
> What does a commercial wine measure with your instrument?


I calibrated mine about a month ago. Will do it again. Didn't think about trying it on a commercial wine. I will definitely do it today. Thanks.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 4, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> first answer is that the numbers don’t matter, taste is why we have the rules about target pH, do you have a TA reading? Taste and TA are correlated not taste and pH ,,,, ex colas come in at pH 2 and citrus soda at pH 2.5.
> next answer is that CO2 will push the pH down, try heating an ounce in the microwave for 45 seconds, stir to get the CO2 out, cool to room temp and rerun pH number
> @sour_grapes has another good answer, check your meter on other foods


I don't have the means to check TA. But I will definitely try your heating recommendation. Thanks.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 4, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Those values all seem improbably low, and in conflict with the flat taste. I am questioning your _p_H meter's calibration.
> 
> What does a commercial wine measure with your instrument?


I tested my meter on a commercial wine. Looks pretty accurate.


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## AaronSC (Dec 4, 2021)

I agree with everyone else -for grapes from CA and likely central valley, these are unbelievably low, especially since they are low across all the varietals and post-fermentation. These are even low for cold climate grapes at this stage. Did you check the pH when you first got the grapes? I find that pH often RISES substantially with red grapes as they ferment with the skins (or even just sit with the skins). The only thing I can think of is Gino must have added a lot of tartaric to the buckets, maybe miscalculating this. This would make the wine taste very sour, though, and you claim it tastes flat, as if lacking acid.

I know you tested this on a commercial wine, but that commercial wine could have easily had a pretty high pH (3.8-4, say) and you meter could be way low on everything. I personally would not try to reduce the pH using chemicals (which can really impact a wine, especially if it doesn't actually have a low pH) without more information. I believe you can test your meter in an absolute sense by dissolving a specific weight of tartaric acid in distilled water in a way that gives a known pH and verify that you measure that same pH.


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 4, 2021)

AaronSC said:


> I agree with everyone else -for grapes from CA and likely central valley, these are unbelievably low, especially since they are low across all the varietals and post-fermentation. These are even low for cold climate grapes at this stage. Did you check the pH when you first got the grapes? I find that pH often RISES substantially with red grapes as they ferment with the skins (or even just sit with the skins). The only thing I can think of is Gino must have added a lot of tartaric to the buckets, maybe miscalculating this. This would make the wine taste very sour, though, and you claim it tastes flat, as if lacking acid.
> 
> I know you tested this on a commercial wine, but that commercial wine could have easily had a pretty high pH (3.8-4, say) and you meter could be way low on everything. I personally would not try to reduce the pH using chemicals (which can really impact a wine, especially if it doesn't actually have a low pH) without more information. I believe you can test your meter in an absolute sense by dissolving a specific weight of tartaric acid in distilled water in a way that gives a known pH and verify that you measure that same pH.


I use juice buckets. I will recalibrate my meter again.


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## Busch (Feb 18, 2022)

I too have just completed my 2nd batch of juice concentrate wine and it came out with a flat taste. Any way to improve this before bottling? I let the fermentation go a week or so then added sodium carbonate for 24 hrs, then transferred to carboy & let off-gas for another week. Palatable wine for juice concentrate that I mixed up but still sort of flat.... any suggestions? Infusing something??


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 18, 2022)

Flat? frequently a wine with low acid is described as flat. I suggest be a wine judge with a glass of wine and add a few grains of acid blend to see if it is improved, ,, if so then a bench trial with 100ml or 50ml and a 1/10 solution of acid blend and a syringe (ex what the kids get meds with) Pick out the level of acid that meets your flavor goal, ,,, wait and remastered the best treatment the next morning. Best often changes based on what you have eaten.

Sodium is not recommended for fixing wine. It can get salty. Potassium bicarbonate and calcium carbonate should be available in your wine supply store. 
If you have too much acid you can balance acid flavor by adding sugar and preserving that with K sorbate.


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## Busch (Mar 29, 2022)

What acid level should it be at? Is there a chart for these things? I'm in batch 3 now and same thing.. kinda flat tasting


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## Nebbiolo020 (Mar 29, 2022)

Busch said:


> What acid level should it be at? Is there a chart for these things? I'm in batch 3 now and same thing.. kinda flat tasting


You want ideally between 3.65-3.80 for a target ph range in a finished wine.


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## Busch (Mar 30, 2022)

Thank you. So I ran into another little snafu maybe someone can help with. I have a ph tester and hadn't used it before & didn't realize I need deionized water to calibrate it. I cannot seem to find this anywhere but amazon for either a ridiculous price or a whole gallon, when I only need maybe a liter. Does anyone know where to find this without paying more than maybe $10? Or a workaround???


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## BarrelMonkey (Mar 30, 2022)

Busch said:


> Thank you. So I ran into another little snafu maybe someone can help with. I have a ph tester and hadn't used it before & didn't realize I need deionized water to calibrate it. I cannot seem to find this anywhere but amazon for either a ridiculous price or a whole gallon, when I only need maybe a liter. Does anyone know where to find this without paying more than maybe $10? Or a workaround???



DI water is typically used in a lab setting, but if you use distilled water from your local grocery store you should be fine. If you want to get fancy you can boil the distilled water or put it under vacuum for a few minutes to purge any dissolved CO2, but it probably won't make a huge difference to your test results.


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## Busch (Apr 10, 2022)

Thank for the comment. I did as you mentioned & purchased distilled H2O and boiled it, but unfortunately, I could not calibrate it. I think the buffers were bad so I am ordering another set to try again. Is calibrating really that precise meaning do you have to dilute in 250ml or can be diluted in a small juice glass.


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## BarrelMonkey (Apr 10, 2022)

If you're dissolving powder to make your pH standards, you do need to add the right amount of water. pH is literally the (negative logarithm of) hydrogen ion concentration, and the buffer sachet is designed to give a certain H+ concentration when dissolved as specified - so if you add the wrong amount of water, your values will be off.

What sort of pH meter do you have and what do you mean when you say you couldn't calibrate it? If you have one of those $10-$15 pH pens that are so common on Amazon.com, I'm afraid you might be out of luck. See comments from me and others on this thread here...


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## Busch (Apr 10, 2022)

BarrelMonkey said:


> If you're dissolving powder to make your pH standards, you do need to add the right amount of water. pH is literally the (negative logarithm of) hydrogen ion concentration, and the buffer sachet is designed to give a certain H+ concentration when dissolved as specified - so if you add the wrong amount of water, your values will be off.
> 
> What sort of pH meter do you have and what do you mean when you say you couldn't calibrate it? If you have one of those $10-$15 pH pens that are so common on Amazon.com, I'm afraid you might be out of luck. See comments from me and others on this thread here...



I didn't get it from Amazon, but this is it: PH Tester


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## BarrelMonkey (Apr 10, 2022)

Busch said:


> I didn't get it from Amazon, but this is it: PH Tester



I can only report my experience, but I don't think these testers are very trustworthy. You may want to try calibrating it at just one pH value (4.00), though the accuracy will only be about +/- 0.1 pH unit at best. But that might be sufficient for your purposes if you're just trying to get a rough estimate.


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## tmcfadden932 (Apr 10, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> You want ideally between 3.65-3.80 for a target ph range in a finished wine.


White wines in the 3.25 to 3.45 range. Rose' 3.35 to 3.55, and reds about 3.6 pH. SO2 is added according to the pH, the lower the pH, less is needed. At 3.8 pH, to much is needed to stabilize the wine and if you have a good palate, you can start to taste it.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 12, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> White wines in the 3.25 to 3.45 range. Rose' 3.35 to 3.55, and reds about 3.6 pH. SO2 is added according to the pH, the lower the pH, less is needed. At 3.8 pH, to much is needed to stabilize the wine and if you have a good palate, you can start to taste it.


All the wines I have ever made finish out at 3.70-3.80 that includes professionally my mentor always wanted 3.70 in his wines and told me that’s what I should target. As for white wines he said basically 3.50-3.60 was his ideal target and none of the wines ever tasted out of balance.
I guess it’s a matter of a winemakers personal opinion and style like everything else.

I studied under a winemaker who learned much of what he knows from Jeff Cohn.


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## tmcfadden932 (Apr 14, 2022)

Nebbiolo020 said:


> All the wines I have ever made finish out at 3.70-3.80 that includes professionally my mentor always wanted 3.70 in his wines and told me that’s what I should target. As for white wines he said basically 3.50-3.60 was his ideal target and none of the wines ever tasted out of balance.
> I guess it’s a matter of a winemakers personal opinion and style like everything else.
> 
> I studied under a winemaker who learned much of what he knows from Jeff Cohn.


I make mostly grape wine in California. The wine makers club I belong to, LAVA, the Lodi Amateur Vintners Association, lavawine.org, which has monthly meetings where we have wine makers from a winery, where we hold our meetings that month, give a 1 to 2 hour seminar on any aspect of wine making they chose. The meetings are held at a different winery every month, some are small craft type and some are commercial type like Woodbridge Winery.

The range I listed is the range the pros here in California use because it works for wines that age well. I made a Chardonnay in 2012 that most midwestern based winemakers, that like sweeter wines, would have found to be to acidic but with age, now tastes wonderful 10 years later. I have used that range in my wine making with great success at amateur competitions that also have the pros entering their wine in their category. My awards include best of show, best in class and numerous gold and double gold awards.


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## Nebbiolo020 (Apr 19, 2022)

tmcfadden932 said:


> I make mostly grape wine in California. The wine makers club I belong to, LAVA, the Lodi Amateur Vintners Association, lavawine.org, which has monthly meetings where we have wine makers from a winery, where we hold our meetings that month, give a 1 to 2 hour seminar on any aspect of wine making they chose. The meetings are held at a different winery every month, some are small craft type and some are commercial type like Woodbridge Winery.
> 
> The range I listed is the range the pros here in California use because it works for wines that age well. I made a Chardonnay in 2012 that most midwestern based winemakers, that like sweeter wines, would have found to be to acidic but with age, now tastes wonderful 10 years later. I have used that range in my wine making with great success at amateur competitions that also have the pros entering their wine in their category. My awards include best of show, best in class and numerous gold and double gold awards.


Even though I work professionally I do belong to a local home winemaking club mostly because they offer grapes you can buy for home winemaking and so I can help out with teaching people techniques and helping home winemakers better replicate commercial techniques to get wines that are a lot better than what they would normally produce.
I am a huge advocate for cold soaking using dry ice it protects the wine from oxygen by displacing any oxygen and it cools down the must and you get a softer lusher more rounded wine and it can help with big wines so they don’t become out of balance. I really like cold soaking Zinfandel you can get a huge wine that isn’t a fruit bomb and doesn’t taste hot despite having high ABV.

I also do not add any sulfites to my wines untill they hit the bottle I use bioprotectant yeast and the dry ice to control spoilage I believe in having as minimal an impact on wine as possible only add what’s really needed honestly don’t add just to add.


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