# Wanted To Post About My Mystery Grape!



## CK55 (Jun 6, 2018)

I Figured I would post about the grapes that im getting Dna tested by UC Davis since nobody in the family remembers what they are, They have been on the property where I live for 40 years and came from cuttings from the original vine in Angels Camp,California which was planted sometime between 1870 and 1910. Im pretty excited to find out what they are, as I sent Mike at Carlisle winery a bunch of photos and he was stumped by it as well.

Im open to everyone taking a guess and we will see what it comes back as, tell you what you can all do one guess each and whoever is right will get a free kit from me. I thought I would spice it up for you guys.


----------



## Masbustelo (Jun 7, 2018)

Please post back later. How many inches of rain per year do you average? What is Angels Camp?


----------



## CK55 (Jun 7, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> Please post back later. How many inches of rain per year do you average? What is Angels Camp?


i have no idea what that has to do with it, the grapes are currently planted on my property in san luis obispo county, and i didnt ask what you thought about that, i wanted you to guess what varietal you think it is.


----------



## Johnd (Jun 7, 2018)

What is your current shoe size, and what was the first vehicle you owned??


----------



## salcoco (Jun 7, 2018)

try mission grape? my guess is based on dates you mentioned. it would be the time the missionaries would have been in CA.


----------



## Masbustelo (Jun 7, 2018)

I apologize for having expressed interest in the post and having solicited information that may be relevant to both the horticulture and historic origins of these plants. Perhaps this could be a variant of Grenache?


----------



## CK55 (Jun 7, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> I apologize for having expressed interest in the post and having solicited information that may be relevant to both the horticulture and historic origins of these plants. Perhaps this could be a variant of Grenache?


I mean it could be but it is growing in sand, my property is basically the only one in the area on top of a giant ancient sand dune. And according to research Grenache does not grow well in sand. So i think it wouldnt really fit.



salcoco said:


> try mission grape? my guess is based on dates you mentioned. it would be the time the missionaries would have been in CA.


I don't think its mission as their arent any missions around where it was planted. And mike didn't as well.I was told that the family did have a preference for French wine grapes, the only grape we know for a fact they had planted was Alicante Bouschet. The others are as stated why this one is being tested. The family was Italian and was here as early as 1850, so what we have thought as a possible story is that cuttings were taken from vines planted in the 1850's and moved onto the new property which was built in the 1870's. So it could even be older I have no idea. DNA Testing might solve that mystery, but whatever it is survived the phylloxera epidemic in Europe and survived contracting it here. So it might be something that's quite uncommon even rare today.


----------



## salcoco (Jun 7, 2018)

I will try Zinfandel or Primitivo or even its original Hungarian name which I cannot spell at the moment.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 7, 2018)

salcoco said:


> I will try Zinfandel or Primitivo or even its original Hungarian name which I cannot spell at the moment.


Yeah, that i do know of, ive been reading up like a mad man on like 2000 different varieties of grapes since getting into wine making. I will have the results in 1-3 weeks. So keep posting guys .


----------



## treesaver (Jun 8, 2018)

Hate to say it, but looks like a concord to me! I know that isn't what you want to hear!


----------



## CK55 (Jun 8, 2018)

treesaver said:


> Hate to say it, but looks like a concord to me! I know that isn't what you want to hear!


It cant be because we know for a fact that the only table grape planted by the family was a white grape. They hated Concord. A lot. My Grandmother told me years back that the grapes were still on the property in the 30's and that she remembers that they did have alicante bouschet and a white table grape along with all of the others, so we are keen to figure out the origin of this grape.

When i say still on the property i meant the original one where the grapes were possibly cuttings from.


----------



## bumblebeetuna (Jun 9, 2018)

I vote for some kind of hybrid, like Foch


----------



## Zintrigue (Jun 9, 2018)

Angels Camp is right around the corner from me. Unfortunately, that doesn't help me identify because they grow all varieties there! (Calaveras county is like a mini Napa, for anyone looking for off the beaten path wine haven - check out Murphys!). 

I will say that the 49ers were big on the Zinfandel they brought with them to the area, hence the heavy selling of "old growth" zins around here. My fave. And I know for a fact that Zin grows like a weed in these hills, I was told by a local vineyard that you could pee on it and it would give you great grapes. 

But still, Cabs and Barberas and Tempranillos and Syrahs are big hitters here, too. /shrug

I guess I'll throw my hand in the pot for a Syrah, but my second guess would be Zin. Can't wait to hear the results!


----------



## CK55 (Jun 9, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Angels Camp is right around the corner from me. Unfortunately, that doesn't help me identify because they grow all varieties there! (Calaveras county is like a mini Napa, for anyone looking for off the beaten path wine haven - check out Murphys!).
> 
> I will say that the 49ers were big on the Zinfandel they brought with them to the area, hence the heavy selling of "old growth" zins around here. My fave. And I know for a fact that Zin grows like a weed in these hills, I was told by a local vineyard that you could pee on it and it would give you great grapes.
> 
> ...


It grows like a bat out of hell, nobody took care of it or watered it or even pruned it for 2+ decades and it survived an extensive over 10-year drought. So whatever it is is highly tolerant of drought and disease as its completely disease free and is growing in pure sand. So Im eager to find out what the heck frows like a bat out of hell on sandy soil. This year i watered it and corrected a slight nutrient deficiency pointed out to me by Mike At Carlisle Winery and now its healthy and got a lot of clusters of grapes growing on it. I intend to make a small batch of wine out of all the grapes it makes me And see what 40+-year-old vines make. Since i was told that its considered an old vine at this point.


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 10, 2018)

CK55 said:


> i have no idea what that has to do with it, the grapes are currently planted on my property in san luis obispo county, and i didnt ask what you thought about that, i wanted you to guess what varietal you think it is.



Different grape varieties differ in their water needs. Some are more drought tolerant than others. So if you really wanted help in people trying to determine the variety, the more information you can provide about your local climate and geographical conditions (soil et al.), planting method (grafted (if growing in sand, probably not needed) or not , et al.) the better. If you just wanted to have a "contest" based on some photos, that is of course a different game.


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 10, 2018)

CK55 said:


> And according to research Grenache does not grow well in sand. So i think it wouldnt really fit.



Well, to be frank, I don't consider the vines in the photos "growing well". But they also seem to have been neglected. Maybe you have some more up to date photos of better, current growth?


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 10, 2018)

CK55 said:


> came from cuttings from the original vine in Angels Camp,California



Is this documented in writing? Or just oral/family history?


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 10, 2018)

salcoco said:


> I will try Zinfandel or Primitivo or even its original Hungarian name which I cannot spell at the moment.



I would also lean toward Zinfandel at the moment without more info. But would not hang my hat on that guess (because it is just a guess -- would like more verified info on the claimed source of the cuttings). By the way, the origin of Zinfandel is now considered to be the Croatia grape "Crljenak Kaštelanski"

But in the end, the DNA should solve it.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 10, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Different grape varieties differ in their water needs. Some are more drought tolerant than others. So if you really wanted help in people trying to determine the variety, the more information you can provide about your local climate and geographical conditions (soil et al.), planting method (grafted (if growing in sand, probably not needed) or not , et al.) the better. If you just wanted to have a "contest" based on some photos, that is of course a different game.



I live in San Luis Obispo county look up the Arroyo Grande AVA that's where I am. My vines are in soil comprised of ancient sand dunes. These vines are original rootstock. No grafts and probably not phylloxera resistant just being in sand has protected them.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 10, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Well, to be frank, I don't consider the vines in the photos "growing well". But they also seem to have been neglected. Maybe you have some more up to date photos of better, current growth?


Pics are 1 month back, vines we're neglected for decades. So yeah they treat well considering neglect.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 10, 2018)

O


balatonwine said:


> Is this documented in writing? Or just oral/family history?


Oral, daughter of the gentleman who planted them originally is still alive she is my great grandmother and she is 99 and told me what he told her. So it's fairly concrete what I know.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 10, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> I would also lean toward Zinfandel at the moment without more info. But would not hang my hat on that guess (because it is just a guess -- would like more verified info on the claimed source of the cuttings). By the way, the origin of Zinfandel is now considered to be the Croatia grape "Crljenak Kaštelanski"
> 
> But in the end, the DNA should solve it.


Yeah, I could even get you the location of the original homestead where they came from. But basically we know the origin for the cutitngs. Mike had told me that the leaves didn't match zinfandel. I'm going crazy waiting on Davis lol. I hope they hurry up.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 10, 2018)

Zinfandel
Grenache
Petit sirah
Peloursin
Cabernet franc
Cabernet Sauvignon
Merlot
Syrah
Alicante Bouschet
Grand noir
Cinsault
Carignane
Mission
Criolla mediane??
Abouriou

List of what Mike ruled out visually taking a look at the vines and leaves and cluster. keep in mind that it can still be one of these, they are just what he told me that hes faily confident it isnt.


----------



## Zintrigue (Jun 11, 2018)

Well in that case, let me be the first to claim tempranillo, based on leaf shape alone. /shrug


----------



## CK55 (Jun 11, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Well in that case, let me be the first to claim tempranillo, based on leaf shape alone. /shrug



Again thats just his opinion and he does know his vines fairly well, he told me that the main indication for not being zinfandel or primitivo was that the leaves are not even close to being the shape necessary. He said that the cluster looks like zin but the leaves do not.

It very well could be Tempranillo, would make a lot of sense as to why its thriving in the soil that it is in. Which is not very high quality soil being sandy. And Tempranillo does grow well in sandy soils. The vine tends to like to just grow as a big bush as well. Even when you trellis is it doesnt want to grow on anything it just grows wherever it wants.


----------



## Venatorscribe (Jun 11, 2018)

I am enjoying this mystery. Keep the feed coming. Also photo log for us the grapes as they ripen. Cheers


----------



## CK55 (Jun 11, 2018)

Venatorscribe said:


> I am enjoying this mystery. Keep the feed coming. Also photo log for us the grapes as they ripen. Cheers


They are still small and green but are growing fast, so i will post pictures as they start to develop color. i am really excited for Davis to call me up and let me know what the heck they are. Its a mystery as the family Is Italian but they had a preference towards french grapes. So im really betting my money on it being probably a small obscure french grape that could be very regional or it could even be like Carménère where it was labelled extinct but could be that i have the last of it i dont know. Because a lot of grapes got wiped out just a decade or so after these were planted originally And it did survive phylloxera in Europe and here. So i am more intrigued.


----------



## Masbustelo (Jun 12, 2018)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess...perhaps... St. Jeannet?


----------



## CK55 (Jun 12, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess...perhaps... St. Jeannet?


I have to look that up


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 12, 2018)

CK55 said:


> These vines are original rootstock. No grafts and probably not phylloxera resistant just being in sand has protected them.



Yes, phylloxera does not like sand. And many vinifera vines in otherwise phylloxera infested areas can be grown on their own roots in sandy soils because the sand does hinder phylloxera.

For anyone interested, some terse information about a variety of grape vines and varietals grown in sandy soils as a protective measure against phylloxera can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera

But if the vine has true phylloxera resistance, then it is probably a hybrid as no vinifera really has innate phylloxera resistence.


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 12, 2018)

CK55 said:


> He said that the cluster looks like zin but the leaves do not.



I agree. But this is a neglected vine. And that may, just might, have affected leaf morphology.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 12, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Yes, phylloxera does not like sand. And many vinifera vines in otherwise phylloxera infested areas can be grown on their own roots in sandy soils because the sand does hinder phylloxera.
> 
> For anyone interested, some terse information about a variety of grape vines and varietals grown in sandy soils as a protective measure against phylloxera can be found here:
> 
> ...


I doubt its a hybrid as most vines prior to about 1880 were natural crosses that happened in nature. It wasnt really untill later that you had a lot of artificial human caused crosses.

But you never know. I do know that it came from europe.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 12, 2018)

Although all the new vines planted right next to it are Resistant to phylloxera and drought and whatnot as i selected rootstocks that were intentionally resistant.

But i really would have been fine with any rootstock.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 13, 2018)

Here's 3 more pics because I could post them and because it might help the vines are really coming back to life.

https://imgur.com/a/4GzhJ3Y


----------



## Zintrigue (Jun 14, 2018)

I wish UCDavis would hurry up, this one's a cliffhanger.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 14, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> I wish UCDavis would hurry up, this one's a cliffhanger.


I am losing sleep over it lol. I just want to finally solve the mystery. So I can make wine out of it and label it. Otherwise I'm just going to put a big fricking ? On the label.


----------



## cmason1957 (Jun 14, 2018)

That may well be what you end up doing after UCDavis gets done. I have a friend who has an equivalent mystery grape on his property. Genetic testing left them with nothing in particular, they mashed their names together and call it Torenzel. It makes a wonderful white wine, that you certainly can't get anywhere else.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 14, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> That may well be what you end up doing after UCDavis gets done. I have a friend who has an equivalent mystery grape on his property. Genetic testing left them with nothing in particular, they mashed their names together and call it Torenzel. It makes a wonderful white wine, that you certainly can't get anywhere else.


Well if thats how it will be then thats how it will be. But im pretty sure its going to come back as something. But i could be wrong my gut feeling is just that its going to come back as something. I hope to get the results before the weekend hits or im going to be really upset. Im tired of waiting its been over 12 days.


----------



## Venatorscribe (Jun 14, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I am losing sleep over it lol. I just want to finally solve the mystery. So I can make wine out of it and label it. Otherwise I'm just going to put a big fricking ? On the label.


Understandable. The rest of us following this story are just as intrigued. Let’s hope it is rare and exotic or an interesting mutant


----------



## CK55 (Jun 14, 2018)

Venatorscribe said:


> Understandable. The rest of us following this story are just as intrigued. Let’s hope it is rare and exotic or an interesting mutant


I do think it stands a good chance of it because it was deff in the US before phylloxera hit France and Europe so the chances of it being something are slightly higher.


----------



## marquettematt (Jun 17, 2018)

I think the test will show it to be tempranllo. Tannat is also possible. The berry size catches me. I might lean towards sangiovese or mourvedre, maybe even dolcetto. My official, single answer is sangiovese.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 17, 2018)

marquettematt said:


> I think the test will show it to be tempranllo. Tannat is also possible. The berry size catches me. I might lean towards sangiovese or mourvedre, maybe even dolcetto. My official, single answer is sangiovese.


We shall see, im leaning towards a french grape, but it could be sangiovese, but the problem is i planted some sangiovese vines today and the leaves do not look like the ones on the old vine.

The berry is like a medium berry its right in the middle not huge but not small.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 17, 2018)

The thing that stumps me and a lot of people ive talked to is that this vine produces clusters so early, it had them in February. They have just gotten slightly bigger since then, and with that in mind these grapes will probably be ready in august or september. Quite a bit earlier than the others ive seen.

which kinda does fit Dolcetto. As its labelled as being fast to grow.


----------



## marquettematt (Jun 17, 2018)

The thing that makes IDing hard is the age of the vine. Varietals have come in and out of use and some are near extinct, only seen by academics. How far away is the nursery where you got those sangiovese? I only ask because if it's far and the vine turns out to be sangiovese, It would be a good example of how vines exhibit varied, phenotypical response according to the soil and climate they're planted in. Where are you located? It might be a good clue as to what vine it is


----------



## CK55 (Jun 17, 2018)

We know that the vine was planted prior to 1909 that these vines came from as these we're cuttings of that vine. I did some digging around ancestry wise. So it was probsbly brought here between 1843 when we know the family got here and 1860. For a fact. So it could be something that's gone out of favor or is even extinct like carmenere was thought to be before they found it in South America.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 17, 2018)

We know that when some of the family got married and got their own land they took the grapes and replanted them. So they could be any number of things. I have no idea what the result will show. But it's super stressful waiting. I want the DNA results now. This mystery has me hooked.


----------



## Venatorscribe (Jun 17, 2018)

CK55 said:


> We know that when some of the family got married and got their own land they took the grapes and replanted them. So they could be any number of things. I have no idea what the result will show. But it's super stressful waiting. I want the DNA results now. This mystery has me hooked.


Haha..we understand your stress. Stay strong. Your followers in this thread are also ultra keen to know and are similarly hoping that it is something extraordinary.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 17, 2018)

Venatorscribe said:


> Haha..we understand your stress. Stay strong. Your followers in this thread are also ultra keen to know and are similarly hoping that it is something extraordinary.


I would love it to be some crazy cross or something cool just for the sake of having something unique. Im going to make wine out of it regardless the clusters are getting bigger every day it seems. Im going to get a good yield this year, easily enough to make a good sized batch of wine so im really looking forward to trying it and seeing what we come up with.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 19, 2018)

Okay results just in, its Rose Of Peru a Cross between Mission and Muscat Of Alexandria. It is pretty rare.


----------



## Venatorscribe (Jun 19, 2018)

Very interesting. Congrats. Will this be a high Brix / sweet wine grape ?


----------



## CK55 (Jun 19, 2018)

Venatorscribe said:


> Well that is very interesting. Congrats. Will this be a high Brix / sweet wine grape ?


According to what I read about Muscat Of Alexandria which is a ancient white wine grape, that grape is sweet and mission is typically used to make sweet red wines. And Fortified wines so it should probably be a sweeter red wine.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 19, 2018)

Im going to make a pure wine from it, and not blend anything this august and see how it turns out. it will be rare and unique as nobody else uses it. At least not enough to be pure.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 19, 2018)

Also for anyone who wants to try a bottle when I get the wine made let me know via PM, ill be making probably around 10 gallons of wine. So you guys can get a taste of it.


----------



## Slappy (Jun 20, 2018)

https://www.winespectator.com/webfe...er-Identity-of-Historic-California-Grape_3412

Little bit of info I found. Looks like you have a good bit of history there. Glad the mystery is solved.


----------



## salcoco (Jun 20, 2018)

Well I was half way correct. If I recall Mission grapes was used to make a wine called Angelica. I believe it was really juice of the grape and alcohol spirits to bring it to about 14% abv. could Google it to see if it would fit your thoughts for some small batches.

any way congrats and good luck. also Muscat grape makes a very aromatic wine. maybe it will come thru in your cross.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 20, 2018)

salcoco said:


> Well I was half way correct. If I recall Mission grapes was used to make a wine called Angelica. I believe it was really juice of the grape and alcohol spirits to bring it to about 14% abv. could Google it to see if it would fit your thoughts for some small batches.
> 
> any way congrats and good luck. also Muscat grape makes a very aromatic wine. maybe it will come thru in your cross.


Muscat is known to be sweet as hell, very aromatic and very grape forward flavor. It should possibly be a sweet high alcohol wine. Nobody knows as th cross is rare enough that I was told nobody has enough to make a batch of wine from my grape.


----------



## Ajmassa (Jun 20, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Muscat is known to be sweet as hell, very aromatic and very grape forward flavor. It should possibly be a sweet high alcohol wine. Nobody knows as th cross is rare enough that I was told nobody has enough to make a batch of wine from my grape.



Ahhh. Closure. Good for you! So Rosè of Peru? Mission/Muscat of Alexandria...with family history....Hmmm. So rare your the only grower?? I smell $$$. Free bottles 1st vintage. Talk up the varietal. Draw up some interest. By the third vintage you’ll be charging $800 a case! Or $3k for the ~150lbs at harvest.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 20, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ahhh. Closure. Good for you! So Rosè of Peru? Mission/Muscat of Alexandria...with family history....Hmmm. So rare your the only grower?? I smell $$$. Free bottles 1st vintage. Talk up the varietal. Draw up some interest. By the third vintage you’ll be charging $800 a case! Or $3k for the ~150lbs at harvest.


Theirs 8 or so variants of it but they are all different mutations if that makes sense, South America has a white and red variant but the flavors are radically different. I was told by Mike at Carlisle winery that they occasionally find my specific varietal in old vineyards that are abandoned but never in enough quatity to make wine. I don't want money out of it. I'm not even going to get licensing to sell I'm just going to send out bottles to anyone who wants them. You just have to pay shipping costs if you aren't in the us.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 20, 2018)

Theirs variants such as criolla,criolla chica, criolla grande, criolla mediana which is mine. But each is different while they all have same parent vines several are white and a couple are red so they inherited different traits from the parent vines.


----------



## Ajmassa (Jun 20, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Theirs 8 or so variants of it but they are all different mutations if that makes sense, South America has a white and red variant but the flavors are radically different. I was told by Mike at Carlisle winery that they occasionally find my specific varietal in old vineyards that are abandoned but never in enough quatity to make wine. I don't want money out of it. I'm not even going to get licensing to sell I'm just going to send out bottles to anyone who wants them. You just have to pay shipping costs if you aren't in the us.



Awesome! I was half kidding by the way. It’s pretty cool to have such a rare grape- and enough to get 10gal of it too. 
And I totally agree with your plan. Make it straight- as is - and will give you a good handle on how to make and/or blend in the future. Sounds like a fun little project. 
And if someone happened to offer big bucks for the grapes at harvest to make and sell?? Well that’d be pretty cool too I think.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 20, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Awesome! I was half kidding by the way. It’s pretty cool to have such a rare grape- and enough to get 10gal of it too.
> And I totally agree with your plan. Make it straight- as is - and will give you a good handle on how to make and/or blend in the future. Sounds like a fun little project.
> And if someone happened to offer big bucks for the grapes at harvest to make and sell?? Well that’d be pretty cool too I think.


Ive got about 35-40 vines i planted a bunch of cuttings off them. They are heavy producers like you would not believe it. Im going to take a picture of all the clusters on them. 

Im planning over time to keep planting small cuttings and increase to somewhere around 150 vines. Which would be a huge amount. I was told that it might be good for making Rose type wine, and that if it makes a red wine its possibly going to be a lighter red. I wont know untill i make it. Because in the past really the only way it was used was blended in field blends in tiny amounts so i dont know if anyone actually made a 100% Criolla Mediana based wine.


----------



## Venatorscribe (Jun 20, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Theirs variants such as criolla,criolla chica, criolla grande, criolla mediana which is mine. But each is different while they all have same parent vines several are white and a couple are red so they inherited different traits from the parent vines.


Congrats again. This has been a great story. And as you said - it will be an excellent project.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 20, 2018)

Yeah well everyone's going to get abottle of wine.


----------



## Jal5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Glad you got the vine ID. Now good luck with this interesting project!


----------



## CK55 (Jun 20, 2018)

At


Jal5 said:


> Glad you got the vine ID. Now good luck with this interesting project!


 At least it wasnt like something super common lol,not that i would have minded i just wanted to have a cool story.


----------



## Zintrigue (Jun 21, 2018)

Oh wow, the mystery is solved. This is exciting! Very cool story to go with it, indeed. You lucky duck.


----------



## CK55 (Jun 21, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Oh wow, the mystery is solved. This is exciting! Very cool story to go with it, indeed. You lucky duck.


And to boot I know who originally planted the vines that the cuttings came from. So I'm going to make a label kind of related to the ancestor who planted them.


----------



## Zintrigue (Jun 21, 2018)

Sounds like a great plan. Would love to see the label when you're done. Cheers!


----------



## Jal5 (Jun 22, 2018)

CK55 said:


> And to boot I know who originally planted the vines that the cuttings came from. So I'm going to make a label kind of related to the ancestor who planted them.


Terrific idea


----------

