# Mead and Math question



## wineforfun

I put together a batch of JAOM last night. However, I had a container that read 5lb. (80oz.) of honey. So I measured out, in a Pyrex measuring cup 3 - 16oz. cup fulls, equaling my 3lb. (I was using 3 instead of 3 1/2 to dry it up some). The thing is, that took all of the "5lb. (80oz.)" of honey. 
I then took a 48oz. container of water and filled up the empty honey container and it nearly filled it all the way up.
So am I doing the math wrong or could I assume the container is mismarked?


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## Arne

I am guessing, but , honey is denser than water. Therefore a smaller volume will weigh as much as a larger volume of water. Hope this makes sense to you, think it does to me, lol, Arne.


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## wineforfun

Well, then I may have a problem with my mead as I used nearly the whole container. Thanks Arne.


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## wineforfun

You are correct Arne, I used the "interweb" and looked it up. 1lb honey=1 1/3c. Guess I will dump it out tonight and start over. I should have used 4c instead of 6c. 
Still a little confused at how the label reads 80oz., unless that is honey oz.


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## BernardSmith

Wineforfum, I am from the UK, (Scotland) and have lived in the USA for a long time (Just became a citizen on 9/11 - 2012), so for me a cup is really a volume measure although it can approximate weight (1 C sugar will not weigh the same as a 1 C water or 1 C honey). An ounce (oz) is a weight and 80 oz of feathers will weigh precisely the same 80 oz of steel or 80 oz of honey but the volume of each will be very different. I think you may be trying to use a kind of rule of thumb approximation for a relationship between volume and weight that is OK when used for small quantities of only a small range of items. (1 C of grapes will weigh considerably more than 1 C of dandelion petals) When you work with larger weights then I would think the rule of thumb breaks down as those assumptions about relationships between volume and weight no longer hold.


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## seth8530

You could just adjust your recipie for the extra honey you usws.


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## wineforfun

BernardSmith said:


> Wineforfum, I am from the UK, (Scotland) and have lived in the USA for a long time (Just became a citizen on 9/11 - 2012), so for me a cup is really a volume measure although it can approximate weight (1 C sugar will not weigh the same as a 1 C water or 1 C honey). An ounce (oz) is a weight and 80 oz of feathers will weigh precisely the same 80 oz of steel or 80 oz of honey but the volume of each will be very different. I think you may be trying to use a kind of rule of thumb approximation for a relationship between volume and weight that is OK when used for small quantities of only a small range of items. (1 C of grapes will weigh considerably more than 1 C of dandelion petals) When you work with larger weights then I would think the rule of thumb breaks down as those assumptions about relationships between volume and weight no longer hold.



Yes, I am still a little confused on how the container comes up with 80oz when it only holds 50'ish oz of water but I do see where the 1C of honey is different than 1C water, etc.


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## wineforfun

seth8530 said:


> You could just adjust your recipie for the extra honey you usws.



I only have 1gal carboys so this is not an option. The recipe is pretty specific on not altering things.
I will just dump it out and take it as a lesson learned. Just out some honey.


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## Arne

Split it into another gal. and you will probablly be ok. Add extra fruit and you should be able to make it work without pitchin it. Arne.


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## btom2004

Like Arne says and also try a different yeast that will dry it out the way you want. Honey cost way too much money to just dump it out. I only use recipies as a guide you can do what ever you like. More honey only means higher ABV or more risidule sugar. All could be blended away after fermentaion or during.


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## wineforfun

I may try that(to split it). My problem right now is I have too many batches brewing and no carboys available. Will see what I can come up with. Thanks for all the help.


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## WVMountaineerJack

1 US gallon of water = 8 pounds
1 US gallon of Honey = 12+ pounds, depending on the amount of water
Unfortunately we dont use the metric system, and use ounces for weight and volume. You keep seem to be mixing up weight and volume. 

WVMJ


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## loumik

wineforfun said:


> Yes, I am still a little confused on how the container comes up with 80oz when it only holds 50'ish oz of water but I do see where the 1C of honey is different than 1C water, etc.


 
80 oz is 5 pounds. 16 oz equals 1 pound. 5 x 16 = 80. The 80 oz on your honey container is not liquid ounces, it's weight. You should have been weighing it on a scale not measuring it in cups or other methods of liquid measurement.

LOUMIK


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## CowboyPhil

At worst case if u only have 1 carboy is freeze the leftover. It will be fine.


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## seth8530

yeah, whatever you do... do not dump it....


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## fatbloke

seth8530 said:


> yeah, whatever you do... do not dump it....


concur, and the OP should get a damn hydrometer and a 5 gallon (or so) mixing bucket.

There's little point in messing around with weights and volumes when you've got variables like the difference between fluid and "normal" ounces and the different density against weight issues.

A hydrometer will allow you to add honey to water and mix it in, then measure. If the result is low (start smaller, as it's easy to add a bit more, but considerably harder to remove sugars or reduce the gravity if it's too high) then add a bit more (half pound increments are reasonably managable).

Don't do what beer makers do and try to get all the fermentable sugars in up front. If you want something that's about 18% ABV, then remember, that strength is equivalent to 133 gravity point drop, so rather than starting at 1.133, start with say, 1.100 and when it's dropped to something like 1.050, add more honey to increase the gravity. You could add enough to bring it back up to 1.083, but it's easier and less stressful to the yeast if you added say enough to increase the 1.050 back up to 1.070 then when it's dropped again to about the 1.050 area add the last part to bring it back up about to 1.063 then provided you don't get any pH issues and that the batch is well enough nourished it should drop to 1.000 - if you've used a yeast that will get to that (K1-V1116, EC-1118, DV10, etc etc).

All that can be done in a bucket (with grommet and airlock) then be moved to a fermenter to finish and throw it's first sediment etc.....


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## seth8530

Yup, exactly what fatbloke said.


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## wineforfun

fatbloke said:


> concur, and the OP should get a damn hydrometer and a 5 gallon (or so) mixing bucket.
> 
> 
> =QUOTE]
> 
> I have a hydrometer, but not sure what a damn hydrometer is.
> 
> Yes, it was my mistake, and won't happen again. I mixed up weight and liquid ounces.


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## Arne

Jump in your car, run up to 84th & L behind just good meats fermenters supply has gal. jugs for sale. Think last time I saw them they were less than $5. Get a bung and airlock too and you are ready to go. Arne.


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## BernardSmith

wineforfun said:


> fatbloke said:
> 
> 
> 
> concur, and the OP should get a damn hydrometer and a 5 gallon (or so) mixing bucket.
> 
> 
> =QUOTE]
> 
> I have a hydrometer, but not sure what a damn hydrometer is.
> 
> Yes, it was my mistake, and won't happen again. I mixed up weight and liquid ounces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't blame yourself. Imperial measures are fundamentally confusing, non intuitive and not very friendly. Heck! NASA crashed a hundred million dollar orbiter on Mars in 1999 because they muddled imperial and metric measurements. One of the beauties of metric measures is that weights and volumes are simple to calculate and use: so 100 ccs (or ml) is 10 percent of a liter (1000 ccs) and 100 gms = 10 percent of 1 Kg (1000 gms) and 1 liter of water weighs 1 kg (at 4 C and at the surface of the planet) - Compare that to: 16 ozs = 1 lb (so 1 oz = 6.25 percent of 1 lb) and 1 gallon (US) of water weighs about 8.35 lb but 1 British gallon is 1/5 larger than 1 gallon which weighs 10 lbs...
> 
> We seem to prefer to design in problems rather than design them out...
Click to expand...


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## wineforfun

Arne said:


> Jump in your car, run up to 84th & L behind just good meats fermenters supply has gal. jugs for sale. Think last time I saw them they were less than $5. Get a bung and airlock too and you are ready to go. Arne.



Arne,
I need to get up there, I have been buying all my supplies at Cornhusker Beverage(right around the corner from Fermenters). I have 8-1gal. carboys right now, don't need anymore. I think it is time to start buying bigger ones. All my 1gal. carboys are full, with the exception of two, that will be this weekend when I rack/backsweeten more DB.


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## fatbloke

wineforfun said:


> fatbloke said:
> 
> 
> 
> concur, and the OP should get a damn hydrometer and a 5 gallon (or so) mixing bucket.
> 
> 
> =QUOTE]
> 
> I have a hydrometer, but not sure what a damn hydrometer is.
> 
> Yes, it was my mistake, and won't happen again. I mixed up weight and liquid ounces.
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies for the wrong conclusion. The absence of any gravity reading led me (incorrectly) to presume a lack of a hydrometer.
> 
> Which is something you see often with newer mead makers i.e. they don't realise the importance of them and just follow a recipe of X oz's of honey to Y litres/gallons/whatever of water, pitch the yeast and then wonder why they have problems.
> 
> Hence the wrong presumption and impatient sounding response.
> 
> For info, small batches, like 1 gallon size are fine for experimenting, but you'd only get an average of 4 to 4 and a half bottles from 1 US gallon, after some racking losses.
> 
> Which explains the importance of very detailed notes, so that if one of your batches is particularly good, you can easily repeat it, scaling up if you wanted too.
> 
> I'd say something like a 6 gallon bucket and when you're ready to a 5 gallon carboy. That way, you have the space to make the batch, and do fruit additions etc sometime in the making process, then still have enough to rack into the carboy for ageing/clearing etc....
> 
> Obviously your choice of kit will depend on how much space you have and the batch sizes you find most convenient......
Click to expand...


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## Bartman

wineforfun said:


> I put together a batch of JAOM last night. However, I had a container that read 5lb. (80oz.) of honey. So I measured out, in a Pyrex measuring cup 3 - 16oz. cup fulls, equaling my 3lb. (I was using 3 instead of 3 1/2 to dry it up some). The thing is, that took all of the "5lb. (80oz.)" of honey.
> I then took a 48oz. container of water and filled up the empty honey container and it nearly filled it all the way up.
> So am I doing the math wrong or could I assume the container is mismarked?


To go back to your original post, and apart from the mix-up on the "dry vs. liquid" - "imperial vs. metric measurements", I would try to 'graduate' beyond the JAOM. I have made it too, and was reasonably satsified, but is was too sweet. So "dry"-ing it out is a good idea, and you should use a standard mead or wine yeast, IMO, rather than bread yeast.

Also, you can get 5 gal. food-grade buckets at Lowe's and Home Depot, real cheap (like $5 or less). Carboys aren't too bad either, especially if you go with Batter Bottle (plastic), about $22-27 for 5-6 gal.


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## wineforfun

Will be looking for larger carboys as I have just really been experimenting with different recipes, flavors, etc. to try and get the whole "system" down to make sure this is something I want to do, hence the amount of 1gal. carboys. 
As far as the JAOM goes, I just used it as a first time mead recipe to see if I would even like it and how the process with honey works. 
Obviously I learned something right away with using honey and measuring.


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## fatbloke

Just for info, while the JAO recipe is easy to make and finishes sweet if you void the warranty and use a wine yeast you end up with a dry batch with nothing to balance the bitterness from the orange pith.

Its better to use a more conventional method and recipe style to achieve a dry(er) mead.


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## wineforfun

Not sure who you are referring to, but I did stick to the original recipe to the tee (after I got the honey ordeal under control). The only change I made was to use 3lb of honey instead of 3 1/2 hoping for a little dryer than the normal.


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## fatbloke

wineforfun said:


> Not sure who you are referring to, but I did stick to the original recipe to the tee (after I got the honey ordeal under control). The only change I made was to use 3lb of honey instead of 3 1/2 hoping for a little dryer than the normal.


I read Bartmans post as suggesting to use wine yeast in a JAO, and figured it best to point out that JAO doesn't make for a good dry mead as the dryness brings the pith bitterness into focus and that's all you taste.

Whereas reducing the honey is a much better idea - actually I'd have thought that reducing by the half pound would give a similar result to my normal ones i.e. mine are made with the same ingr3dients as the recipe but when I first made a JAO I automatically made it to 1 imp gallon a.k.a. 4.55 litres and not 1 US gallon or 3.78 litres.

I've tried a correct one since and now make it as I did the first time so its sweet but not too sweet IMO


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