# Thinking about making the plunge, should I?



## jsbeckton (Nov 26, 2018)

I have been making high end big red kits (WE Eclipse, RJS En Primeur) for about 2 1/2 years now. I skip the sorbate, add tannins, bulk age at least a year before bottling and cellar at 60F year round but am finding the results only ‘so so’ after 28 months. It’s not bad, just not that great either.

My question is should I expect the results to really be all that much better if I went all grape vs the high end kits or are my expectations just too high for the quality of material available to the general public? I am in Pittsburgh and there seems to be a decent distributer in the strip district so I likely have access to decent fruit if I went that route.

I just don’t want to spend a bunch of time and money making the switch from high end kits to all grape unless there would be a significant difference in the end result. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the hobby aspect of going all grape but my time is pretty limited these days with 2 young kids so quality it my top priority at the moment.


----------



## sour_grapes (Nov 26, 2018)

My feelings are similar to yours. Because I was "meh" about my kits, I decided to switch to grapes for reds (and stay with kits and/or juice buckets for whites). Unfortunately, I only have one vintage of grapes under my belt, so I cannot yet judge whether this is the right move for me.


----------



## NorCal (Nov 26, 2018)

I’m on my 5th vintage, with great access to grapes. My average wine has receive a Silver medal at the CA state fair. I’ve never made a kit, but have drank my fair share of $3-$5 bottles of wine. I have found that I can consistently make wine for $3 in material costs that tastes a lot better than anything that I can buy for that price. Tasted blind I think my wines will hold their own with $8-$12 bottles and I wouldn’t be ashamed putting my best with $20-$25 bottles, but my average wine wouldn’t stand up. I’ve blind tasted mine vs $35-$50 and my wine clearly stood out as inferior. 
Not sure that answers your question, but maybe give you some idea.


----------



## pgentile (Nov 26, 2018)

I made many of the WE Eclipse series several years back. Didn't feel I was getting out of them what I liked in a wine. 

For me the transition to all grape and juice bucket wines was well worth it. Not knocking kits but, except for one, my all grape batches have been better than any of the kits. With juice buckets it has been more 50/50 sometimes better than a high end kit other times not.

All grape batches will take more time and effort up front than kits as you know. You have decent access to grapes it might be worth it to try and it can be done without investment in a crusher and/or press. My first batch or two were hand de-stemmed and crushed with a 2x4.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 27, 2018)

Like most I started out with kits, 4 total before I started using juice bucket and grape combos but I felt there was just something missing. Last fall I did my first all grape batch and from the get go it was much better then my previous. To be honest though there were mistakes made with the first batches.

This spring I made 4 batches, the first with all grapes and the others were juice buckets with a few lugs of the varietal grapes and used skins. All of these are coming along very nicely. Fall was all grape, 8 batches including one white, the last 2 which were the most premium are still going through MLF. As @sour_grapes indicated it's too early to be sure but there is just something special about all grape wines that I don't find in kits. It could just be the pride in knowing I did everything myself though and I strongly feel allowing it to go through MLF makes a big difference.

@pgentile is correct in your don't have to buy all the equipment. It's more time consuming without it but make no sense to purchase the equipment if you're not sure if it's the direction you want to go. The initial process is more time consuming but it is only the initial process, after that it's all the same. Take @NorCal with a grain of salt as he is just being too modest. I can almost guarantee his wines are better then he cares to admit.

You do have a quality source for grapes. I got my last batch, a late harvest Lanza PV from CPF Winemakers. I haven't 100% made up my mind yet but 95% sure we'll be going to their Wine Share in January.


----------



## ceeaton (Nov 27, 2018)

Realize that at 28 months, some of your red kits are just getting going. I'm finding that if I wait to bottle until they are 24 months plus, more of them should reach a ripe old age to 36+ months old. Think about the red wines you can purchase. I'd bet most of them aren't reaching their prime for 3 or 4 years minimum.

Having said that, my wine from grapes are much more enjoyable at an earlier age than my kits ever were. I'm going to assume that the wines from grapes I've made will become even better over time. You need to source good grapes, which there are quite a few Pittsburgh winemakers on here who I believe have sourced them from the "strip", so hopefully they will chime in. The better the starting point, the more chance that the end result will be good as well (though I can always find a way to screw up making a wine if I try hard enough). To this point I had been fortunate enough to source grapes through Harford Vineyards, and the raw grapes they were getting were in great shape for the most part. Hoping that the Washington Winemaker grapes that some on here have recently used will turn out good as well, since grapes are no longer available through Harford.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 27, 2018)

My winemaking started similarly to yours, made well over 40 kits, mostly high end, over the years and just wasn't that thrilled with the results even after years of aging. Don't get me wrong, they're not bad wines at all and I still enjoy drinking them, but wanted to make better wines. Since trying wine from grapes / frozen must, there's been no looking back. In my opinion, my worst grape wine is better than my best kit wine. I've since stopped making kits and moved strictly to grapes, the experience gained from kit wines has been invaluable to me and wouldn't change a thing. 

Today, all of the toys/processes of the trade are employed to make wine, crusher/destemmer, large fermentation vessels, vacuum racking, MLF, press, appropriate lab equipment, and high quality barrels. A large investment if tackled all at once, but manageable over time. 

Take the plunge, the water is fine.........


----------



## sdelli (Nov 27, 2018)

Totaly agree John.
To make something great you must first start with something great! Go to a great restaurant and they make your dinner from scratch. Go to a lower end restaurant and they cut corners with some pre mades. Both might taste good but one will never be the other.


----------



## jsbeckton (Nov 27, 2018)

Thanks everyone, this has been really good feedback. I am a long time brewer and know for sure that the beer that I made from all grain has been head and shoulders above the beer I started making from kits so I just wanted to ensure that the same potential was there.

That being said, of all the bells and whistles, what would you say are the bare minimum equipment needed to dip my toes into all grape (besides good fruit)?


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 27, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> Thanks everyone, this has been really good feedback. I am a long time brewer and know for sure that the beer that I made from all grain has been head and shoulders above the beer I started making from kits so I just wanted to ensure that the same potential was there.
> 
> That being said, of all the bells and whistles, what would you say are the bare minimum equipment needed to dip my toes into all grape (besides good fruit)?



I guess the first question I would have is how much do you plan on making?


----------



## NorCal (Nov 27, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> Thanks everyone, this has been really good feedback. I am a long time brewer and know for sure that the beer that I made from all grain has been head and shoulders above the beer I started making from kits so I just wanted to ensure that the same potential was there.
> 
> That being said, of all the bells and whistles, what would you say are the bare minimum equipment needed to dip my toes into all grape (besides good fruit)?



I'll take a carboy worth of grapes being a "toe dip". You would need around 120 pounds of the best quality grapes you can find.

As far as equipment, this is what I would buy. All the below prices are delivered free via Amazon Prime. For under $100 I think I could put together equipment that would make really good wine. You could find a used carboy on craigslist and bring the cost around $75. 

- Hydrometer: $7 and will suffice
- pH meter: $7 with calibration packets
- Destemmer: $17 milk crate (you get 2, to have an extra to put the carboy in)
- Fermenter: $8 food grade bucket X 2
- Press: Another $8 food grade bucket with holes in it
- Storage: $38 five gallon glass carboy
- Bung/airlock - $7, you get qty 3


This would be a really fun challenge; you can only use the equipment listed and have a blind taste challenge.


----------



## jsbeckton (Nov 27, 2018)

I should clarify that I already have everything to make kit wine/beer so pretty much everything listed. Guess all I need is a milk crate!

Say I wanted to spend another $500. How would you spend that? If it matters, I’d say my expected production would only be about 18-24gal/year since I also have a love for beer.


----------



## ceeaton (Nov 27, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> I am a long time brewer and know for sure that the beer that I made from all grain has been head and shoulders above the beer I started making from kits so I just wanted to ensure that the same potential was there.


I've been brewing beer since 1990, your experience about grain vs. beer kits can be correctly applied to whole grapes vs. wine kits. And as you know your equipment to produce an all grain batch has probably lasted you a long time. You can expect the same for any wine making equipment you buy.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 27, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> I should clarify that I already have everything to make kit wine/beer so pretty much everything listed. Guess all I need is a milk crate!
> 
> Say I wanted to spend another $500. How would you spend that? If it matters, I’d say my expected production would only be about 18-24gal/year since I also have a love for beer.



Crusher/destemer. Press. Vinmetrica SC-300. All used. New, those three things would be a cool grand. If you don't have a pH meter of any kind, I'd get the Vinmetrica first. You can always go w/ juice buckets or buckets and a small amount of grapes to start. They can be crushed, destemed and pressed by hand. Then you can move up to a C/D and press from there if you like the results. If you don't, you can probably use the Vinmetrica in your brewing. 

I agree with what the others have said. When I first started making wine, I thought my kits were pretty darn good. I'm currently drinking my first premium kit - a Cellar Craft Showcase OVZ started in April of 2012. Yes, 2012. It doesn't hold a candle to wines from fresh grapes that I started 60 days ago. Never did.

Edit: I can't believe I didn't mention the All In One pump, as NorCal did. I use that more than any other tool in the arsenal.

And as Paul does, I still make white wines and rose from kits or juice buckets. Very good results with those.


----------



## StevenD55 (Nov 27, 2018)

I think kits are more controlled and are probably therefore easier. A lot of adjustments to pH and sugar levels and so forth are taken care of. My first attempt with a kit was good enough to get good reviews from self-proclaimed wine afficienados who have had no problems critiquing my wine from grapes. 

But it’s much more rewarding to me to turn out a successful batch of wine from my grapes and a wine that people like. Especially true, if it’s from a challenging grape varietal....of which I have a couple that are just that.


----------



## NorCal (Nov 27, 2018)

Given your volume, If I had to buy one tool, it would be an all in one pump. Very versatile tool, racking, degassing, bottling.


----------



## Stressbaby (Nov 28, 2018)

I second @NorCal on the All in One pump. You can get around the crusher/destemmer/press for now - you could find someone with equipment to borrow/trade; the brewshop where I get my grapes lets you crush/destem when you pick up the grapes, that may be another option.


----------



## masic2000 (Nov 28, 2018)

I have been making wine from 100% all juice grape must (no concentrate, no water added) from Mosti Mondiale, http://mostimondiale.com/
They pre-inoculate their products with all the proper yeasts and ingredients. All I do is open the pail, add grape skins and oak, let it return to room temp. and the fermentation begins. It saves you the time and money of buying and using a crusher/destemmer/presser since this is already done for you. The quality of wine you get is just as good as starting from grapes, IMO.


----------



## Sage (Nov 28, 2018)

Don't know about where you are but here a lot of small vineyards are pick your own and will let you use their destemer/crusher. Some free use some small cleaning charge. Lots of different varieties.


----------



## Kraffty (Nov 28, 2018)

I've been off kits and on grapes for the last 3 years now and want to add just a note of caution. Kits can be really consistent, give 5 of us the same kit and they'll probably come out pretty similar. Give 5 of us 3 lugs of grapes and you'll probably get 5 very different wines. There is a bigger learning curve and if your first go-around isn't what you expect don't give up. I think you'll end up with a better wine and speaking just for me a much better experience. Best of Luck! Mike


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 28, 2018)

Kraffty said:


> I've been off kits and on grapes for the last 3 years now and want to add just a note of caution. Kits can be really consistent, give 5 of us the same kit and they'll probably come out pretty similar. Give 5 of us 3 lugs of grapes and you'll probably get 5 very different wines. There is a bigger learning curve and if your first go-around isn't what you expect don't give up. I think you'll end up with a better wine and speaking just for me a much better experience. Best of Luck! Mike



Very well put Mike.


----------



## jsbeckton (Nov 28, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Crusher/destemer. Press. Vinmetrica SC-300. All used. New, those three things would be a cool grand. If you don't have a pH meter of any kind, I'd get the Vinmetrica first. You can always go w/ juice buckets or buckets and a small amount of grapes to start. They can be crushed, destemed and pressed by hand. Then you can move up to a C/D and press from there if you like the results. If you don't, you can probably use the Vinmetrica in your brewing.



Have people been finding this stuff used fairly easily? I looked at Craigslist Pittsburgh and Facebook market place and not seeing much near me. Only a few very large presses and no crusher/destemmer. Am I looking in the right places?


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 28, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> Have people been finding this stuff used fairly easily? I looked at Craigslist Pittsburgh and Facebook market place and not seeing much near me. Only a few very large presses and no crusher/destemmer. Am I looking in the right places?



Patience is key. Although if you're @mainshipfred , things seem to pop up all the time.


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 28, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> Have people been finding this stuff used fairly easily? I looked at Craigslist Pittsburgh and Facebook market place and not seeing much near me. Only a few very large presses and no crusher/destemmer. Am I looking in the right places?



Yeah man. I’ve made some great purchases for used equipment. Just a lot of antique junkers to weed through. On craigslist you can set up so you receive an email alert when “grape/wine press, fruit crushers” etc etc are listed. I still have not gotten around to turning that off lol. (The Carboy alert is 90% “we by junk cars” ads)
Also “letgo” app and “OfferUp” app are fantastic. And actually bought a used crusher/destemmer I saw posted here on WMT last spring. They’re out there. Just requires patience. And luck.


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 28, 2018)

Well I’ll be damned @jsbeckton ! This post (and thread) may be of some interest to you. 
wine equipment for sale - outside Pittsburgh
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?posts/711210/


----------



## jburtner (Dec 1, 2018)

I haven’t made as many full bottles as most of these guys and gals but i’ve made quite a few empty bottles....

i switched to grapes or frozen must and won’t use kits anymore for reds. I make less now than when I first started. I’ll probably make some whites from kits or juice still. 

You can use your all in one for beer too. 

At one point I pirchased a bunch of used carboys off CL. Great value and i picked up some of all sizes. Love the cute little 3g carboys 

Good luck!
-johann


----------



## jgmann67 (Dec 3, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> Have people been finding this stuff used fairly easily? I looked at Craigslist Pittsburgh and Facebook market place and not seeing much near me. Only a few very large presses and no crusher/destemmer. Am I looking in the right places?



When searching on craigslist (and if you're not doing it already), expand your search to the 200 mile radius around your home zip code. You may have to take a ride to NY, WVa or OH to get what you want. 

I'm a big fan of my AIO. It would be my first purchase after picking up the basics; then the vinemetrica-300. I would put a crusher and destemmer at the bottom of my list - many distributors will offer c/d service for free or cheap. Save your money till you can get exactly what you want. Also, if you're looking for how to make a bucket press, check youtube - 3 buckets, a spigot, brew bag, a drill and about an hour... viola. 

Here's mine:


I'm only 3 vintages in to fresh grapes. Too soon for me to tell, but I think wine from fresh grapes will be head and shoulders better than kit wines.


----------



## Bts (Dec 3, 2018)

I was surprised just how well the bucket press worked. I just did my first all grape batch this year and got 8 gallons out of 3 lugs of valdepenas. Just use 2 5 gal buckets inside a 6 gal juice bucket as the collector. Then hop right in there to get your full body weight on it...helps if you're, ahem, larger . I also dumped out and broke up the cake twice and re-pressed like I read about on another thread here. Can't remember how much extra juice I got but the skins went from still pretty wet after the first press to quite dry after the 3rd.


----------



## peterseng (Dec 3, 2018)

I am in the process of making the same transition. I did my first batch from fresh grapes this fall - small batch from some concord that grew at a friend's house. Not sure yet how the wine will turn out, but I definitely enjoyed the process far more and learned a LOT!
Since then, I have made arrangements with two families I know who have grape vines growing wild on their properties. I will tend the vines and then be able to make wine from the grapes. For my first batch this fall(about 2 gallons) I de-stemmed by hand and crushed with a potato masher in the primary. For a press, I put the must into a muslin bag and twisted/squeezed by hand. All do-able for this small 2 gallon batch, but if the vine tending goes well, next fall I will have quite a bit more to work with. Sadly I doubt I'll be able to invest the kind of money I've seen for a crusher/de-stemmer and wine press. I have been eyeing used equipment, but (as has been stated above) it's all timing and luck.
I noticed two in-expensive ideas in this thread that I'd like to know more about. First of all, using milk crate(s) to crush and de-stem the grapes. Secondly, making a bucket press. Both seem like they might work well for the anticipated volume (Three varieties - probably between 10 and 20 gallons total) and do so for a much more reasonable price. Can anyone provide more information or links that would show how to make these improvisations work?


----------



## Bts (Dec 3, 2018)

A bucket press is real simple. Just 3 buckets inside each other and drill a zilion small holes in the middle one. Bottom one catches the juice, grapes get dumped in the middle drilled one, and the top one is the press that you just push down or stand on. Some people use 3 of the same buckets and drill a hole in the bottom one to let the juice drain out into another collection vessel, but I just used a 6 gla bucket for the bottom one and 5 gal for the others so there' s a gallon of space in the bottom one. The 5 gal ones can only hold maybe 50 to 70 lbs of grapes, and you'll get under a gallon per press. This is for red fermented skins that have had the free run drained off already. Not sure it'd work so well on unfermented white grapes. I did 3 lugs(108 lbs, 11.5gal must, 8 gal wine) and had to do it in 2 batches, but it was fairly easy. Haven't tried the milk crate thing..just squeezed/destemmed with my hands


----------



## ceeaton (Dec 3, 2018)

Bts said:


> Then hop right in there to get your full body weight on it...helps if you're, ahem, larger .


That's why Jim likes when I visit, bigger butt leads to better extraction (and probably more tannins). Though I think the table he's showing in his image would scream like a little girl and go running for cover if I walked into the room.


----------



## heatherd (Dec 3, 2018)

I started with kits and still make them.

What I've moved toward is this:
-Fresh pail of red juice + a lug of fresh grapes in the spring and fall - around $120-150
-Fresh juice buckets for whites in the spring and fall - usually around $60-70 and you have to pick up somewhere locally
-I will do one fresh all-grape batch every year - ranges but typically $200-225ish
-Frozen must in the off-season for reds typically from Wine Grapes Direct $130-250 + shipping

I have a few batches aging now that are from Presque Isle wine's fresh, shippable Australian juice, which is $75 + shipping:
https://www.piwine.com/order-australian-juice-for-wine-making.html 

One thing to note, when making reds from juice/grapes, you'll want to do malolactic fermentation. That's a new process that doesn't happen with kits. Not complicated, just different.


----------



## jgmann67 (Dec 3, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> That's why Jim likes when I visit, bigger butt leads to better extraction (and probably more tannins). Though I think the table he's showing in his image would scream like a little girl and go running for cover if I walked into the room.






Like this?


----------



## ceeaton (Dec 3, 2018)

jgmann67 said:


> View attachment 52415
> 
> 
> Like this?


Hah! That chair underneath you would have been metal kindling if I had been "pressing". You need to fill your glass.

Sorry I'm being short but I'm listening to the Eagles trying to loose to the foreskins.


----------



## Stressbaby (Dec 4, 2018)

jgmann67 said:


> View attachment 52415
> 
> 
> Like this?



r/Whatcouldgowrong/


----------



## jgmann67 (Dec 4, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> r/Whatcouldgowrong/



Remain calm.... I'm a professional.


----------



## baron4406 (Dec 22, 2018)

I came to winemaking in a very round about way. Was a "bourbon maker" so many years then graduated to beer then wine. My fruit wine is great, grape wine is terrible. I started with juice buckets and ended up hating them. Then started doing grape/juice wines and they were almost as good a box wine. Then full grape and they are about as good a a $10 bottle of wine. I then tried some high end kits and even young they are worlds better than my grape wines, here in Pa you just can't get too many decent grapes. Now just to play around I'm trying out cheap kits that I heavily modify and I'm really liking the results. Yea I make too much wine lol. I actually have about 30 gallons of "juice" wine that doesn't really deserve bottles, so its gonna become brandy.


----------



## jgmann67 (Dec 24, 2018)

baron4406 said:


> I came to winemaking in a very round about way. Was a "bourbon maker" so many years then graduated to beer then wine. My fruit wine is great, grape wine is terrible. I started with juice buckets and ended up hating them. Then started doing grape/juice wines and they were almost as good a box wine. Then full grape and they are about as good a a $10 bottle of wine. I then tried some high end kits and even young they are worlds better than my grape wines, here in Pa you just can't get too many decent grapes. Now just to play around I'm trying out cheap kits that I heavily modify and I'm really liking the results. Yea I make too much wine lol. I actually have about 30 gallons of "juice" wine that doesn't really deserve bottles, so its gonna become brandy.



There are a bunch of us Pennsylvania winemakers on here, Baron. Kits and grapes - the better the quality, the better the wine (that's the theory at least). Where in Pa are you?

PS. There's no such thing as "too much wine". Just wine you haven't opened yet.


----------



## jsbeckton (Dec 24, 2018)

Are the Eastern PA winemakers on here getting grapes from CFP winemakers down in the strip? Happy with the quality? Anything better available?


----------



## jsbeckton (Dec 24, 2018)

Just found a used press on Craigslist, still looking for a crusher/destemmer but should be able to give a batch of grapes a try this spring.


----------



## mainshipfred (Dec 24, 2018)

From VA but got a late harvest PV from them while visiting family this past fall. Seem like really good peope. So far so good on the wine.


----------



## mainshipfred (Dec 24, 2018)

jsbeckton said:


> Are the Eastern PA winemakers on here getting grapes from CFP winemakers down in the strip? Happy with the quality? Anything better available?



Back in the seventies it was always Christmas in the Strip District. Everywhere you went it was hoe hoe hoe.


----------



## baron4406 (Dec 30, 2018)

jgmann67 said:


> There are a bunch of us Pennsylvania winemakers on here, Baron. Kits and grapes - the better the quality, the better the wine (that's the theory at least). Where in Pa are you?
> 
> PS. There's no such thing as "too much wine". Just wine you haven't opened yet.



I'm just north of the Allentown area, by "too much wine" I mean more wine that I have bottles for. I'm constantly tasting my wine and today I'm doing PH/SO2 checks on my kits I started this summer. A Nebbiolo and an Amarone. The Neb is pretty darn good and the taste of the Amaron at 6 months of age is incredible. I'm bottling both this weekend and they will bottle age for a year or so. Some of these kits make incredible wine. But there's no shame in marginal wine becoming brandy either. Its like putting a dress on a hog.


----------



## heatherd (Dec 30, 2018)

baron4406 said:


> I came to winemaking in a very round about way. Was a "bourbon maker" so many years then graduated to beer then wine. My fruit wine is great, grape wine is terrible. I started with juice buckets and ended up hating them. Then started doing grape/juice wines and they were almost as good a box wine. Then full grape and they are about as good a a $10 bottle of wine. I then tried some high end kits and even young they are worlds better than my grape wines, here in Pa you just can't get too many decent grapes. Now just to play around I'm trying out cheap kits that I heavily modify and I'm really liking the results. Yea I make too much wine lol. I actually have about 30 gallons of "juice" wine that doesn't really deserve bottles, so its gonna become brandy.


Baron, have you tried getting fresh grapes/juice from Keystone Homebrew? They get them from outside of PA so you're not limited to local varietals. http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/shop/wine/fresh-grapes-and-juice.html http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/premium-grapes/ Looks like they still have some fall 2018 stock of Washington Merlot and Sangiovese. I know they'll have Chilean grapes in the spring.

You can also get stuff fresh from Presque Isle wine. They don't ship fresh grapes, but you can preorder and pick up. https://www.piwine.com/grapes-juices.html

They do ship fresh Australian juice: https://www.piwine.com/order-australian-juice-for-wine-making.html


----------



## baron4406 (Dec 30, 2018)

Yes Heather I got my last batch of grapes from Keystone(Petite Syrah) and its in my barrel now. I'm not making any juice wines anymore, the wine they make is thin and tasteless. The only exception from that is a juice bucket I got from Walkers last year (Noriet) that I combines with 3 lugs of Chilean Cabernet and that wine is tasting great so far. From now on I'm just doing kits or grapes.


----------

