# Mlf??



## Busabill (Sep 20, 2015)

Ok so important question from the pros out there as this is my first time from grapes. I have 100 pounds of Zinfandel at .998 yesterday and wil probably press it today as it didn't do much over night. And 100 pounds of Cabernet at 1.0 10 yesterday so its not ready. So the Zinfandel, after I press it should I do an MLF or just start the clarifying and aging phase? Should I do it on both of them eventually? Is an MLF always good to do? I guess I'm just confused on when you should do one. And just to be sure, after I press it I still need to put an airlock on it rather than just a solid rubber bung correct? And then a solid bung after I rack it off the gross lees next time correct? By the way, the Zinfandel tastes pleasantly tart and fairly bold, very excited! As always thanks ahead of time for your insights and ideas.


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## TomK-B (Sep 20, 2015)

Busabill said:


> Ok so important question from the pros out there as this is my first time from grapes. I have 100 pounds of Zinfandel at .998 yesterday and wil probably press it today as it didn't do much over night. And 100 pounds of Cabernet at 1.0 10 yesterday so its not ready. So the Zinfandel, after I press it should I do an MLF or just start the clarifying and aging phase? Should I do it on both of them eventually? Is an MLF always good to do? I guess I'm just confused on when you should do one. And just to be sure, after I press it I still need to put an airlock on it rather than just a solid rubber bung correct? And then a solid bung after I rack it off the gross lees next time correct? By the way, the Zinfandel tastes pleasantly tart and fairly bold, very excited! As always thanks ahead of time for your insights and ideas.



I'm by no means a pro, so I'll leave the MLF question to others. But the question about using an airlock at this time is one that I can address. Definitely put it under airlock rather than a solid bung - unless you want to create a solid rubber projectile.  Your wine will be off-loading CO2 at a rapid clip after you press it off the skins and even more so if you do end up doing the MLF.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 20, 2015)

Almost all commercial reds go through MLF. It seems scary, at first, but is actually a very easy thing to do. No So2, or very, very little, good MLF and let it rip for the month or three it takes to finish.


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## heatherd (Sep 20, 2015)

I am making Zinfandel now and putting it through MLF. You can do it now. Main thing is not to add kmeta until MLF is complete. Continue to add nutrients through the process. Stir occasionally. MLF can take six weeks, but can happen more quickly. What you're looking for is the wine to shift from tart to smooth in taste.

Your Cabernet will need it as well.


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## Busabill (Sep 21, 2015)

Awesome so I feel a little better about it now. I pressed the zin yesterday (never again by hand) and today I will rack off the gross lees and pitch the bacteria. So two questions, how will I know when MLF is done and what nutrients do you recommend for the MLF? Thanks guys!


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## fabrictodyefor (Sep 21, 2015)

I've filtered into this thread just so I can read the responses that come forth. I've been reading and pondering about MLF lately myself. Thanks all for as much information about MLF.


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## heatherd (Sep 21, 2015)

To know when it's done you can buy test equipment or you can taste for the change from tart to smooth.

You can eaither use yeast nutrients or there are some MLF-specific ones on the internet. Scott Labs Opti-malo plus is one:
http://www.scottlab.com/product-151.aspx 

Heather


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## Reluctant Chemist (Sep 21, 2015)

Reds almost always benefit from MLF. A commercial starter culture is the better way to go unless you are in a winery setting where you've had a number of successful MLF's before and the area is "contaminated." I agree with adding a nutrient designed for malolactic bacteria - there are several. Also, to gauge completion you need to run a test. Tasting may tell you that some MLF has occurred, but won't tell you when you're done, or if you are stuck. The Accuvin Malic Acid test strips are a simple test you can do on your own.


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## Busabill (Sep 21, 2015)

So I noticed something strange just now. It's been 24 hours since pressing and I'm getting ready to rack off the gross lees and pitch the bacteria when I noticed the wine is degassing and bubbling quite a bit on its own right now. It's fairly warm in this room I noticed about 78 degrees or so. Should I be alarmed at this? Is it just still fermenting? Anyway I thought it was strange. Any ideas?


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## ibglowin (Sep 21, 2015)

It's just finishing out and degassing on its own. No worries


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## davidfilip (Sep 22, 2015)

You can do MLF together with alcoholic fermentation or just after the fermentation is finished. There are cons and pros for each method.

Doing MLF together with alcoholic fermentation you risk stuck fermentation, because of competition of different bacteria for same nutrients. Doing MLF after primary fermentation you keep your wine without protection of SO2 for quite some time, which might present risk. 

I prefer to do MLF after primary fermentation, but both ways are valid. 

You will need commercial strain of bacterias (keep them in freezer) and you need to some source of heat (keep the wine around 20 - 22C -> 68 - 71F). I use heaters used for aquariums which have thermostat and they are really cheap.


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## Busabill (Sep 28, 2015)

Hey guys. So my Cabernet was finally ready and I pressed around .996. Gave it a day racked off and pitched the MLB. In this case it is showing no signs of anything with the MLB in it. No off gassing know nothing. Does this sound okay? The MLB I had sat out of the fridge for about 5 or 6 hours the day before when I thought I would use it. Coud it have gone bad?. The last time I used the MLB it was at least bubbling a little and showing signs of activity.


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## sour_grapes (Sep 28, 2015)

How long has it been since you pitched the MLB?


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## Busabill (Sep 29, 2015)

I pitched the MLB on Sunday and today is Tuesday. Still no signs of anything in the airlock or anything.


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## davidfilip (Sep 30, 2015)

MLF "fermentation" is not like alcoholic fermentation. You will not see any sign of the process. 

You can check it by measuring amount of malic acid, if it is going down there is mlf process going on.


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## Floandgary (Sep 30, 2015)

Eerie (to me) that the MLF subject should pop up again. I've done a lot of reds but never ventured into the MLF arena as I've been satisfied with results without it. However the more I read about it, it seems to be a simple step to take it to a better level, soooooo. Going to give it a go with an upcoming batch of Sangiovese. Question for now is this,,,,,can MLF be performed on wine which has been "post fermentation" treated with K-meta/sorbate/oaked/etc, and is ageing in carboys????


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## cmason1957 (Sep 30, 2015)

With k meta, maybe depends on how much. With sorbate, no. It will produce a geranium smell that you cannot get rid of.


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## Floandgary (Sep 30, 2015)

As I suspected,, reinforced by what I have read. So I will commence MLF as soon as I rack from primary. Guessing that leaving it set for @a month before racking again won't hurt anything.


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## davidfilip (Oct 1, 2015)

You should be fine. Just after you rack the wine be very careful with SO2. If there is still the smell of diacetyl let it hang for some time: once you add dose of SO2 you will lock the smell inside the wine.


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## Busabill (Oct 12, 2015)

Hello out there! So keeping you posted on my Zin and Cabernet, first time doing this from actual grapes. Its been 3 weeks since I added the MLB to the zin and two weeks since adding it to the Cabernet. I'm still reading about 150 milligrams per liter on both on my Accuvin test for malic acid. Does this sound about right? The directions say that less than 30 milligrams per liter will show that MLF is done. It has noticeably mellowed and rounded out a lot in taste since adding MLB but the test shows that MLF is far from done if I'm reading it correctly. Does this sound about right? Just let the MLF go? At what point do I just go by taste and rack off and add SO2? Or do I just keep looking at the test and wait until MLF is done by the numbers? Thanks as this has definitely been an experience. Can't wait to taste the finished fruits of my labor!


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## havlikn (Oct 12, 2015)

You should wait at least 6 weeks before really focusing on testing. If you have wine topped up there shouldn't be a problem. It may take 8 weeks or more too finish.


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## ceeaton (Oct 12, 2015)

Use your taste buds to keep from using so many tests. Wait until the flavor hasn't changed dramatically (this is assuming that an earlier taste change was noted) for a couple of weeks. Advice given to me is when you think it is done wait another month, then test.


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## Busabill (Oct 13, 2015)

havlikn said:


> You should wait at least 6 weeks before really focusing on testing. If you have wine topped up there shouldn't be a problem. It may take 8 weeks or more too finish.



Okay so I'm just being impatient I guess I'll let it ride and test in a few weeks. Real fast though you mentioned to keep it topped up which makes sense. In both my Zinfandel and my Cabernet carboys I have about 2 inches of air space underneath the bung. The only thing I have to top up with is a gallon jug of the Cabernet that was left over which is also in MLF. Whould you use that to top up both the Cabernet and Zinfandel? Even though it's not the same varietal in the latter case? Obviously I have nothing else to top up the Zin with since its in MLF.


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## havlikn (Oct 14, 2015)

I would top it with the cab. You need to reduce the headspace. You could always go buy a bottle of zin


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## ibglowin (Oct 14, 2015)

That would be the perfect top up wine. You could probably add the whole gallon and not alter the wine enough to even taste it unless you have a very experienced pallet.



Busabill said:


> The only thing I have to top up with is a gallon jug of the Cabernet that was left over which is also in MLF.


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## barbiek (Oct 14, 2015)

Im putting my cab from juice threw MLF and its at 1.000 still foaming a lot when stirred no k was added pitched rc212 10-8 is it safe to add bacteria now or wait till it goes all the way dry? Thanks for your input!


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## ibglowin (Oct 14, 2015)

Sure, as long as the temps are in range, pH, ABV You should be good to go. Have you racked off the gross lees yet or still on them?


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## barbiek (Oct 14, 2015)

Nope still on them should I rack then add MLB? Temp 73 f abv is 12.5 haven't tested acidity yet what should temp, abv and acidity be? First time doing MLF


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## ibglowin (Oct 14, 2015)

You can but then should wait ~72 hours before racking the gross lees off so either rack now which is fine or add and wait a few days. I usually leave mine on the lees for about a week to compact before racking as long as there is no off smells or odors. If you dont rack before hand you will be stirring up the gross lees once again so tradeoffs when it comes time to rack you could say.


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## barbiek (Oct 14, 2015)

Ok thank you Mike and I got the other questions answered lol I read the other thread ML fermentation thanks again!


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## Busabill (Oct 14, 2015)

Ok good points all around I will just top both up with the Cabernet. Another question for the experienced MLFers?  During MLF I am stirring about twice a week to stir up the bacteria and light lees. I read this somewhere, is this a good practice? Would you stir it more often than that?


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## ibglowin (Oct 14, 2015)

Light stir once a week is good.


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## Busabill (Oct 14, 2015)

Thanks Mike...


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## Busabill (Nov 25, 2015)

Hello all and happy soon to be Thanksgiving! A question for you. So it has been 2 months now since I started MLF. I am out of test strips however the tartness of the wines is gone and it tastes very nice and round. The Zinfandel almost taste a little light. I don't have any more means of testing the MLF so at what point would you just go by taste and rack off and add the S 02 and is there any danger of doing so if MLF is not done? What would you guys do? I think it is ready but not really sure if MLF is done.


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## ceeaton (Nov 25, 2015)

My opinion, for what it is worth (only have done three MLF secondary ferments). 

If there was a noticeable taste change, you definitely got the MLF going. Other than throwing in a whole bunch of SO2 or dropping the temperature 20 degrees, I doubt there is anything you could do to interrupt it. My guess after eight weeks is that it is done.

Are you sure you can't get more test strips or a test kit to verify this? Would be the safest thing to do. If not, the only downfall I know of, is that the ferment could start up again in the bottle. I highly doubt this could happen, as I highly doubt you could arrest a MLF fermentation once it gets going.

Just my 1.5 cents (inflation) worth.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 25, 2015)

I think I would let it sit another month. Don't do anymore opening and stirring during that time. Keep the airlocks full. I always think to several wineries I have talked with about MLF. They put the wine into barrels, keep them topped up over the winter and then test for completion when it starts to warm back up. There are some that don't even add any bacteria, they have been doing it long enough, it is just in the air. I don't go that far, I test after two months and always give it a bit more time.


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## Reluctant Chemist (Nov 25, 2015)

Hi, I'd get some more test strips. They last 2 years. Taste will tell if you've made improvement through MLF, but can't tell if you're done. Strips will give you the answer, somyuncan add SO2 without worrying about refermentation some time in the future.
Reluctant Chemist


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## tmmii (Nov 27, 2015)

Where do you get the test strips?


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## Busabill (Nov 28, 2015)

I get them from my LHBS. They test for malic acid but they are a little expensive and having never done an MLF before I burned through the pack of about 10 in the first month and a half lol.


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