# Anyone Growing Marquette Grapes?



## vinividivici

I'm considering this variety for planting in my zone, which is 5a. Just curious if there are others already doing this.

Also, I've been scanning wine kits for this variety but haven't seen it listed yet. Is it because there's a royalty to be paid to the U of Minn.?

Cheers!
Bob


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## Racer

I've got marquette but the oldest are only 2 years in the ground here. I'll be trying to form cordons on them next year. I'm xone 5a also just 40 miles south and west of Chicago.


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## vinividivici

Racer said:


> I've got marquette but the oldest are only 2 years in the ground here. I'll be trying to form cordons on them next year. I'm xone 5a also just 40 miles south and west of Chicago.



Interesting. Did you use vine shelters for the first two years? I've seen AA selling Blue-X vine Shelters to protect the young plants and also to accelerate the growth due to the blue light rays.

Cheers!
Bob

PS: I'm also looking at Frontenac


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## grapeman

I had just typed in a small book about the subject and then accidentally hit the back button and lost it. 

You should be happy with the Marquette. I have had it growing for seven years now at our Cornell Research farm in Willsboro NY. I have it in my personal training system trial and can give you tons of information as you need it. 

It makes a decent red wine being medium body and can have lots of berry and black cherry flavors with some tannins but they are light. This years batch (have made 3 years now) had tons of cherry to it and nice hints of vanilla and chocolate along with hints of leather. Overall very good wine this year.

Go into Frontenac with open eyes. It is very cold hardy, but an acid monster that needs taming to be drinkable. It can also be excessively vigorous if undercropped. Hang a heavy crop on it to subdue growth and then as the dry hot weather sets in and veraison hits, start thinning to two clusters per shoot.

I can give you tons of info, but I'm too wiped out after putting on bird netting all day again for the fourth day now. I will answer your questions as you put them forth.


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## Racer

vinividivici said:


> Interesting. Did you use vine shelters for the first two years? I've seen AA selling Blue-X vine Shelters to protect the young plants and also to accelerate the growth due to the blue light rays.
> 
> Cheers!
> Bob
> 
> PS: I'm also looking at Frontenac



I've never used vine shelters at all but have read good and bad on using them. If used correctly they can help you get good healthy vines. Just don't leave them on the vines too late into the season(one of the bad things you can do with the shelters).

Grapeman, I've got frontenac gris too (very small amount) that started ripening the second week of july. Today I did a small sample and see that their at 23º brix.Just curious whats the highest brix you've seen on frontenac or gris at your place of work or vineyard?


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## AlFulchino

i have two phenomenal blended wines made w grapes from this hybrid category ....as well as others...if you can think outside the box and be patient, you can do some wonderful things w all these grapes ...today i released a classic red table wine that i call _Classico_ ...in fact every gallon made from what i harvested last year will be sold...i strongly suggest you make the effort to track down wines made w grapes you are thinking of growing...taste them...and EVEN IF you dont like those wines..go buy the grapes themselves and make wine...then grow what you like

even if people here tell you...hey grow it..it is GREAT....its only words because what i say is great be terrible to you....you gotta go wet your own tongue


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## grapeman

Good advice Al. You need to like the wine or there is no sense in growing the vines. 

Racer, Frontenac will go up to around 26 brix and even higher if left on the vine long enough. Last year was so cold and cloudy that it barely made it above 20 brix. When it gets in the 25-27 range it starts to get a nice jamminess going on in the red. I wouldn't let gris get too ripe though. Also monitor your acid if you can.


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## vinividivici

Grapeman, sorry your long posting was lost. I've also had that happen, but usually when I submit and "server busy" shows up and the OP was lost. Now I copy before clicking on the submit button. I really appreciate your effort, though.

Thanks for the initial info on the Marquette, also to Racer and Al for their comments.

I've order the book "From Vine to Wine" and should be receiving it soon. Yesterday I plotted my initial vineyard with stakes and ruminating over preparing the ground.

Here's a basic question: I've noticed on various member's' pics where the young vines are planted but no trellising system is up yet. Is that standard for the first year? It would be helpful if so as I could do this in stages.

Al: I've been looking for Marquette wine kits but no luck so far. I think I'll buy the grapes somewhere and try my first batch that way. There's also a small winery up north of me in Lowville that lists Marquette grapes, and I hope they sell the wine. Will call them today to find out.

Will be buying the vines from AA as I've read numerous good things about them.

Cheers!
Bob


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## grapeman

Whenever I read or hear of someone buying Jeff Cox's book I cringe............. He has some good information, but a lot of his stuff is for very specific situations that often don't pertain. I can't tell you how many people rent a backhoe and dig a three foot trench and mix all their soil before planting. 9 out of 10 times this is totally unnecessary. If you have soil you shouldn't be planting in, that might help, but not normally. Read the book with an open mind.

If you want to try a nice Marquette wine, order a bottle from Chris Granstrom at Lincoln Peak in Vermont. It won the first international cold hardy wine competition in Minn last year.
http://www.lincolnpeakvineyard.com/wines.php

I find it easier to plant the vines first so the trellis wires aren't in the way. It depends on how may you are planting and what you are using to dig the holes with etc.

You likely will not find any kits made from Marquette. It is too new of a variety.

We have had it planted at the Willsboro Cold Hardy Grape Trial at the Cornell Baker Farm where I maintain the vineyard for the last three years. The Marquette are beautiful this year with clusters twice as big as usual and above 20 brix already. If you are ever over this side of the state, PM me and I may be able to arrange a visit. We have a field meeting at the vineard on the 24th from 4-8PM this month. Tim Martinson- the head of the Viticulture program for Extension will be there to speak along with myself and the program director. We will also have samples of a number of the wines grown there.


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## vinividivici

Hmm. I was looking forward to playing with a Bobcat to prepare the ground!

So, it seems that I can roto-till the rows where the vines will be planted, and deeply till the spots for the vines? A dairy farmer that hays my adjoining acreage offered to bring in some composted cow manure. Would that be good to work into the soil before planting next year?

A real fundamental question: how many plants do I need to make 3 or 4 cases of wine each season? 

Bird netting: a winery I contacted for Marquette told me they lost their entire crop to birds. It seems like netting would be good insurance against this, especially since I'll have a micro-vineyard without too many sacrificial plants .
Any suggestions for a supplier or the type of netting?

Thanks,

Bob


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## grapeman

If you are growing Marquette and unless your soil is absolutely horrible and full of clay - DO NOT ADD COMPOSTED COW MANURE. Marquette is very vigorous and needs no soil ammendments. Our first vine at Willsboro is still way too vigorous after 6 years because a bit of chicken compost was added the year prior to planting in that spot. We prune of 4-6 pounds of one year growth each year at pruning (way too vigorous).

Just work the soil with the tiller and like you say a bit deeper where the vines will be.

Figure 5-6 bottles per vine, so 10-12 vines will be enough for you. Last year I made 12 gallons from the 12 vines at Willsboro and the coons and squirrels had eaten a lot of them.

You can get 3/4 inch mesh netting 14 feet wide for use over the top. Lowes should have it. Larger amounts are available cheaper than there, but if you only need a small amount you don't want to buy a lot. Orchard Valley Supply (online) sells it in smaller increments for a small markup.


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## vinividivici

Thanks again, Grapeman.

Our property was formerly a farm (years ago) and the grass and other plants have no problem growing in this soil. I checked the soil acidity yesterday with a meter probe and it was 7.0

I put in my order for 1x vines from AA today and for the blue vine shelters. 

BTW, I ordered a couple of bottles of Marquette from Lincoln Peak, per your suggestion.

Cheers!
Bob


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## grapeman

Good luck with it all. Be sure to keep asking questions!

P.S. - if you are putting in enough vines you can still play with a Bobcat- just get one with an auger for digging the holes to plant in and set the posts. They work great if you need to dig a hundred holes or so at a time.


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## vinividivici

*Standing Water in my Vine Holes*



grapeman said:


> Good luck with it all. Be sure to keep asking questions!
> 
> P.S. - if you are putting in enough vines you can still play with a Bobcat- just get one with an auger for digging the holes to plant in and set the posts. They work great if you need to dig a hundred holes or so at a time.



Okay. Asking another question regarding ground prep.

I tilled/dug holes ~ 3' in diameter and about a foot or more deep, all thirty of them for the vines I ordered. We had that torrential monsoon rain about a week ago and the holes held water in them for about a week before draining. Then we had more rain a couple of days ago, and four out of five rows have water in them. Very slow percolation as the ground is saturated.

Should I be real concerned for next spring when the vines are delivered and I plant them? I've read that the young roots can drown with that much hydration.

I'm wondering if I should get a backhoe to dig down two-three feet to loosen up the soil before I start planting? Or am I being overly concerned?

The five rows with eight holes each are on a slope. The grass around them and on the entire five acres is very lush and thick. Everything on the property grows like crazy without any amendments whatsoever.

I also think there are underground springs as the grass was also very lush and green during the extreme heat this past summer.

Thoughts? Always appreciated!

Bob


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## grapeman

Tough call on that one Bob. Your ground may just be super saturated and in normal times not be wet, but then again, you may have poorly draining soils which might benefit from deeper working. Since it was a working farm, maybe it just has a hard plow pan. Anything to penetrate that would help.


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## vinividivici

A thought occurred to me this morning as I looked out at my deck trellis: the previous owners planted Concord grapes to grow up the trellis. It's situated no more than twenty feet from the planting site.

The trunks on them are 1.5 to 2" in diameter and the canes are very vigorous, with lots of grape clusters present. And very tasty, I might add!

My theory is if they survived and thrive with no problem, maybe I'm worrying too much. 

Thanks for your thoughts, Grapeman. 

Bob


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## AlFulchino

i can tell you this....as i had a huge water issue in 09 and 08...w stretches of 18-20 inches of rain in 30 days....and a VERY organic topsoil that is up to 3 feet deep.....puddling......did i mention knee deep? did i mention that it didnt drain for weeks? did i mention that it was DURING the growing season...not during dormancy?

you will be fine...from this vantage point....make sure your land is pitched./slope at least a little to assist in letting the heavier of storms run off a bit

you can endure some time under water...but sooner or later the lack of O2 getting to the roots will suffocate your vines..

i had that occur next to one of my greenhouses where a row of vines reside...distinct lightening of the leaves occurred and growth was less than that of other vines of the same variety in the same row, away from the greenhouse...simple drainage techniques such as very gentle sloping and such made a difference...one yr later they performed very well and that area was my worst of worst


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## vinividivici

That's good to know, Al. And yes, my entire ten acres is on a fairly steep slope. The spot I picked for the vines gets sun the entire day, so that should help.

I'm getting a delivery of a sandy loam dirt this week for backfilling/planting the vines. Hopefully that will aid the drainage.

My other concern is the amount of snow we get here. It averages 10-12' each winter with a few over 20' recently. So then there's the spring melt of the 1-2' of snow each April. 

Thanks, and it was good to hear from you again. 

Bob


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## AlFulchino

Hi Bob...1-2 feet of snow, on average, only means 1-2 inches of rain

take your very worst area and add in that delivery...that will give you the most effect for your dollar...spreading it around much is going to have little effect on a wide area


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## gird123

Hi,

Any suggestions on where i should buy Marquette grapes? I have tried Frontenac and Marquette, the Marquette wine was much better IMO.


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## vinividivici

gird123 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Any suggestions on where i should buy Marquette grapes? I have tried Frontenac and Marquette, the Marquette wine was much better IMO.



I ordered mine from Double A vineyards in Freedonia, NY.

http://www.doubleavineyards.com

Good luck!

Bob


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## grapeman

Double A has them listed as sold out for the season. Try Andy Farmer of Northeast Vine Supply https://www.nevinesupply.com/redwinevines.php


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## JDC

*Corot Noir*

Grapeman, what are your thoughts on Corot Noir?? I currently have Baco Noir, Marechal Foch & concord that I blend.


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## Randoneur

This is where I bought them a couple of years ago. Vines were in great shape and will bear first crop this year.

http://www.winterhavengrapevines.com/id2.html


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## vinividivici

*Got My Vines Planted Today, So ...*

another round of questions:

1) Is it ok to add mulch around each vine to keep weed/grass growth in check? If so, should it be kept away from the base of the vine?

2) I'm planning on putting a section of landscape fabric in between each vine in the rows, and will therefore only have to mow between the rows. Any problem with that?

3) I've got a pH soil tester. Should I be concerned whether the soil is too acidic or not?

The planting was tedious but a labor of love. I pruned and planted each vine, backfilling with the sandy loam mixture in each hole. Took yesterday and today to do all 32 vines (4 rows of 8 vines each).

I hope I live to see the first crop! 

Cheers!
Bob


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## grapeman

JDC said:


> Grapeman, what are your thoughts on Corot Noir?? I currently have Baco Noir, Marechal Foch & concord that I blend.


 

Sorry, I never saw your post here. I have Corot Noir here, but will likely remove the vines that haven't died yet. I love the grapes you get from it. It is a bit low brix, but that is easily adjusted. Acids are good when ripe and the flavors, body, tannins and mothfeel are outstanding for a hybrid. If I live in WV I would continue growing them.


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## grapeman

Bob, mulch is OK, just be careful it doesn't harbor rodents such as mice. Lanscape fabrics are fine, but keep an eye out for mice under them if you see tunnels forming(also could be moles). 

pH meter to check the soil is OK. Try to keep the pH around 5.8-6.5. A little higher or lower isn't the end of the workd, but they do best in that range.

Good luck with the vines. Have fun with the vines and enjoy checking them often. You get to know them well and may even end up naming all of them!


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## vinividivici

Thanks, Grapeman! Have a good weekend...

Bob


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## gird123

I order 3 Marquette vines from https://www.nevinesupply.com. I have sent them 2 emails asking for shipping information and I get nothing. No response. 

The wife and I cleared a little less that a 1/4 of an acre of sage with a pick ax last weekend and I will be building a High Cordon system this week. I think the spacing will be 6' between plants and 7' between rows. Does that sound right. The soil is very sandy with very little nutrient. I'm planning on 1 row of elder berries, one row of raspberries, and 3 of Marquette.


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## Racer

gird123 said:


> I order 3 Marquette vines from https://www.nevinesupply.com. I have sent them 2 emails asking for shipping information and I get nothing. No response.



Try and call them. I had a similar experience last year with them too. I know they moved last year. I figured that was the reason for not getting back to me by e-mail. They can be reached by phone, the number is on their website.


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## grapeman

Ditto what Racer said. It is a small Mom and Pop operation and when you call you will get either Andy or India (his wife). They are busier than one armed paper hanger this time of year.

Your spacing is OK but could go even a touch farther apart.


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## gird123

I will call them on Monday. Thank you.


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## AlFulchino

just a quick aside...Andy and India are expecting their first child this summer...nicer people cannot be found

to the grape variety in question...its a vigorous variety that easily handles 8 or nine ft spacing....five and six feet and less is applicable on terrible soil and moisture starved areas.....additionally, you can easily use four arms on this variety...no need to hold back....let the foliage run wild the first yr and get the photosynthesis going to build roots...roots are your main goal the first yr...keep the foliage up off the ground....second yr take your best buds greater than pencil size..truth be told your trunk at 16 inches in height should be approaching 1/2 inch diameter...and in cold climes i would advise that you have multiple trunks....crown goal is an occasional issue w this variety..not frequent but it can occur....also you could have an accident like i did w my sprayer catching on another variety...ripped two cordons but i only lost half that vine and it rebuilt the right side in weeks...second yr let the juice run through the new trunk(s) and if the vine is going strong you can build your cordons that second yr....if this becomes your plan then let the cordons run...into the next vine and keep going...otherwise you will stunt the potential thickness of the cordon..pruning the cordon when it meets the next vine in the row and then producing laterals which and excite new grower could think and say ..hey i have a special place and in yr two i am growing my spurs too!!!! so let it run and prune to where it meets the next vine in the spring of the third leaf.....if vigor is on a slower site then build the cordon in yr three

this variety in my view needs four arms to help control vigor..but it handles it fine...needs sun and airflow...relatively disease fre..but not immune...even w superior spacing will need some hedging

if you have a nice site then dont cheat yourself and plant too close....also consider wider rows spacing so the sun can get to the trunks as well and all the soil below the canopy.....sure extra row spacing seems wasteful, but it is also wasteful to increase disease pressure on the vineyard floor only to give rise to more crop pressures and to leaving excess mositure in yet one more place than you want it

sun sun sun.....air flow air flow air flow...because you cannot control the weather and you want to reduce whatcan be done when the weather is not so favorable....also..a lot of people like grass and things in between the rows...it looks nice but to me decaying thatch left from mowing is yet another innocullum source....who needs that?


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## Wade E

Thanks for the great write up there Al. Hope all is going well over there Al, I know for you guys with Vineyards this is one of a few very busy parts of the seasons with all the pruning + you have the nursery also. Do you get to sleep at all this time of year Al?


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## gird123

Hi.

What spacing would you recommend? Would you happen to have a link or a picture of the 4 wire system? I need an illustrated Growing Marquette Grapes for Dummies. 

Thank you,

Nate


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## vinividivici

*Thanks, Al*

Some excellent advice there and I'm printing a copy. Just finished planting my 32 Marquettes on Friday, backfilled the holes with a sandy loam. After the storm yesterday and last night, the vines looked like they were islands in the middle of small lakes. Went out today and released the water with small "canals" to drain away.

I did the spacing a little tighter than usual as I read somewhere that in Northern climes a six foot spacing between plants helps in cold weather. Hope that doesn't present a problem for me, but with the full sun exposure on the hillside, and a good breeze almost year round, there should be good aeration.

Cheers!
Bob


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## AlFulchino

Wade E said:


> Thanks for the great write up there Al. Hope all is going well over there Al, I know for you guys with Vineyards this is one of a few very busy parts of the seasons with all the pruning + you have the nursery also. Do you get to sleep at all this time of year Al?




it is an interesting time of yr to say the least...you sleep when you can...like today, there was a lull in the action so i took a nap on the winery patio in between customers....last week a furnace in 1 greenhouse acted up so i slept..yes slept in that greenhouse that night in a not so comfortable chair and was able to keep the temps up to a decent level ..had to wake up on the hour to attend to the problem at hand...i am too old for that sort of thing  but it had to be done.

pruning is almost done...5 rows to go and then shore up some end posts that i hit last yr...no rush on either as i have 2-3 weeks till bud break

gt some chickens this yr for eggs, they should be laying soon and gonna give a try at raising two meat steer just to make my life interesting 

Gird..trust me you are smarter than you realize, for a new grower the doubts come from fear of the unknown...w a grape vine you can screw up for ten yrs straight w the same vine and then *still* get it right in the 11th yr and have a great crop...do an internet image search for scott henry, four arm kniffen, geneva double curtain if i remember right...and surely there are others, i am not sure...the main thing is photosynthesis the first yr to make great roots....treat the plant well that first yr...no weeds around it etc...second yr go for good truck and long canes for cordons in that second yr or thirds....you can take a crop off a well grown wine in the third yr...remove fruit off of them in yr 1 and 2...but do yourself a favor two because you are busting butt...save a cluster on the vine so you can enjoy the beautiful transformation from flower to edible fruit....it will also allow you a visual education in what to expect in yr three


3 V's i been thru what you have w the water...i had it very bad and had to do the canal thing just like you...i have been adding manure and wood chips to several rows per yr to fill a low point in the vineyard..one planting day a few yrs ago i didnt need a shovel..i put my hands in the mud and swooshed the soil away and dropped in the vines and swooshed the mud right back over them...'canals' were a big help 

never heard about the six foot spacing because of the cold....let me know what you think of the spacing after yr two


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## Runningwolf

Al good to hear from you and knowing things are ok for the most part. Look forward to some chicken and beef stories.


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## grapeman

Bob for whatever reason some growers believe tighter spacing helps to decrease vigor and improve quality. I don't believe it and neither do most growers after a while. Plant the vines at the spacing what works best with your site. Six feet will work but 7 or so would have probably been better for your site.

Nate, I think you will be OK with the 6x7 foot spacing in your climate, because you say the soil is so sandy and poor. That should translate to a lower vigor and the Marquette should stay in check. On a good soil like Al is talking about you need more spacing and the extra cordons to help control vigor. This year I should be able to give folks a bit more information on training system comparisons for Marquette and three other varieties. I have them planted for Top Wire Cordon and Vertical Shoot positioning to compare the single fruiting zone with two double fruiting zones. Those are a modified Geneva Double Curtain and the Scott Henry system Al was speaking about. I'm hoping to see which system will give the highest yield of the best grapes.


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## gird123

Thank you all.

I'm very excited to get some grapes in the ground.


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## gird123

http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/trainingsystems.pdf

This is the one i was thinking i would try? The high cordon?

Nate


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## vinividivici

*Nice Find*



gird123 said:


> View attachment 2229
> 
> 
> http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/trainingsystems.pdf
> 
> This is the one i was thinking i would try? The high cordon?
> 
> Nate



That is a great resource and I've printed it for the next three years reference. Thanks for posting.

Bob


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## grapeman

That should work fine for them where you are.


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## Randoneur

Listen to Al, let a few clusters grow on the second year. Best thing about it is that it lets you get an idea of when you will be harvesting the grapes. Of course every year varies, but you can learn a lot from those first clusters, it might even give you a clue as to when to protect them from the birds!!


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## vinividivici

Randoneur said:


> Listen to Al, let a few clusters grow on the second year. Best thing about it is that it lets you get an idea of when you will be harvesting the grapes. Of course every year varies, but you can learn a lot from those first clusters, it might even give you a clue as to when to protect them from the birds!!



A vineyard north of us grew Marquette two years ago. My wife and I went up to buy a bottle and check out their operation. Sadly, they lost almost all of the Marquette grapes and didn't bottle. Subsequent to that, they installed a bird "screecher". They've had good results with it.

So now I'm toying with netting or a screecher. Would that be an overkill for my micro-vineyard? 

Thoughts? Suggestions?

I could always mount one of these nearby: 

Bob


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## Runningwolf

I think a lot has to do with your neighborhood. Do you have houses close by that are going to be disturbed by the screeching birds. They also have really cool canon blasts that work off of propane. I neighbors are an issue then they have refective tape you can string out and birds of prey kites that fly around on poles. And then there is always netting.


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## grapeman

I would just net the few you have. The bird calls are quite expensive.


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## grapeman

The air cannons around here call the crows to feast in the sweet corn and tomatoes! They can also be quite disturbing to the neighbors.


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## Runningwolf

grapeman said:


> I would just net the few you have. The bird calls are quite expensive.



Yeah but they sound cool!. Makes you feel like you're in a jungle or something. When I worked for a big box we had to install them to help keep the birds out. They only work on some species, not all.


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## vinividivici

I'll pass on the cannons. Heh heh!

Looks like netting it is. Question: It seems you drape the netting over both sides of the trellis, but can/do the birds get up underneath it?


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## grapeman

Runningwolf said:


> Yeah but they sound cool!. Makes you feel like you're in a jungle or something. When I worked for a big box we had to install them to help keep the birds out. They only work on some species, not all.


 The calls are species specific. They have a list of the birds each call takes care of. Around here they are effective for one or two years and then the birds ignore them.


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## Racer

If the netting isn't closed off birds will find their way into the grapes.


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## vinividivici

Racer said:


> If the netting isn't closed off birds will find their way into the grapes.



That's what I wondered. So I would tie the two sides together underneath. Doesn't that mean that I would have to untie each time I need to prune, etc?

Regarding the bird caller, you buy the unit and then get a microprocessor chip with the distress sounds of the birds in your area. They sell a wide variety of chips with quite a few sounds you can choose from. The Tug Hill Vineyard is using one. I'll ask how it's working now that it's in the second season.


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## grapeman

You don't install the netting until after veraison when the grapes become attractive to birds. Yes you do close the netting off.

The calls are very effective the first year and sometimes two. Then the birds seem to figure it out.

There is no foolproof protection and some require more work than others.


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## Teamsterjohn

*6 Marquette on order*

Hi guys, I also am planting 6 Marquette vines when I get them in a few weeks. I also have 6 blu-x-vine shelters for them. I have a 20 feet by 8 feet piece of land for the vines in my garden. 2 rows, vines will be 6 feet apart, 3 per row. I also have my trellis up. I had the 12 ga. wire so I went for a 3 wire trellis system. Everything is in place just waiting on the vines.


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## vinividivici

Teamsterjohn said:


> Hi guys, I also am planting 6 Marquette vines when I get them in a few weeks. I also have 6 blu-x-vine shelters for them. I have a 20 feet by 8 feet piece of land for the vines in my garden. 2 rows, vines will be 6 feet apart, 3 per row. I also have my trellis up. I had the 12 ga. wire so I went for a 3 wire trellis system. Everything is in place just waiting on the vines.



Hey John!

Growing Marquette on Long Island, huh? I was out in my soon-to-be vineyard today, tending to the rows with backfilling more dirt around the vines. It was 34 degrees and snow flurries!

How about posting a picture of your setup, especially the trellis you put up. I'm still deciding on which type to use. It would be interesting to see yours.

BTW, what kind of vines are you getting? Mine came last week. I ordered 1x (one year plus) and they looked great. Each one had a load of roots and most were 2-3 feet long. The vines were about 12-18".

Good luck!

Bob


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## grapeman

I prefer the plain 1 year vines as those with the long roots need pruning and the tops need pruning more.

You will need to harvest the Marquette early on Long Island. Alice Wise from the research station on Long Island said that last year they picked in mid August and that the vines were already past the right picking time. At least you should be able to get them to ripen easily.


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## Teamsterjohn

*My Vineyard*





My vines are coming soon I hope from Midwest. Im from Westchester county, not to far from Long Island.


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## Teamsterjohn

*Some more pictures*


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## ibglowin

Geeze it looks like you took over a city park for your vineyard!


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## Teamsterjohn

LOL, noway, small woods to the left, and another house before the park.


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## gird123

that is a great idea. We have too many parks and not enough vineyards.


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## vinividivici

John,

That's a neat, compact setup. Pics look good!

Cheers!
Bob


----------



## vinividivici

*The Hilltop Winery*

My "budding" vineyard! Four rows of eight vines each. Posts will be put in sometime in the next month or two, along with the trellis system.

The lot next door is 5.5 acres. If I knew I've live long enough to see the fruit, I'd plant a bunch of different varieties there.


----------



## Teamsterjohn

If I only had that much land!!!


----------



## vinividivici

Teamsterjohn said:


> If I only had that much land!!!



We bought the house in 2009. The house is on ten acres, with historic stone walls surrounding the property. It was once farmland and the walls were put up by the farmers around 1850. We are on a hilltop that is 730 ft above sea level.

Three garages, full basement, and 2,100 sq ft of living space. This will really kill you: we paid $210,000 for it.

The cost of living here is very low, crime rate is almost nonexistent and the area is now attracting retirees from the NYC area, as well as NJ and PA. You just have to put up with the lake effect snow each winter, averaging about 10-12 ft per season, with some years over 20 ft.


----------



## vinividivici

*Single or Double Curtain?*

Trying to decide on single or double curtain. Does a single curtain in year one allow the growth to be concentrated not only in the roots but also the trunk?

Does a double at this point help if one of the canes dies or is broken and you still have one on the plant?

Advantages / disadvantages?

Cheers!
Bob


----------



## grapeman

I think you are referring to a single or a double trunk. That is when you train up two trunks the second year after pruning back to two or three buds. Generally you can get the best root growth by just letting it grow sort of like a bush. It does no good to grow a nice long skinny trunk, because it gets cut off the second spring. What you are really trying to grow is a strong root system to give great growth of a nice thick trunk in year two and possibly some good cordon canidates or strong canes for the top wire or midwire depending on how you want to train the vine. Just let it grow this year with several tops. That way you can prune the vine back next year to the thickest best positioned cane to a few buds and let it grow.


----------



## Randoneur

That looks like a really nice spot for your vines. Good luck with them.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> I think you are referring to a single or a double trunk. That is when you train up two trunks the second year after pruning back to two or three buds. Generally you can get the best root growth by just letting it grow sort of like a bush. It does no good to grow a nice long skinny trunk, because it gets cut off the second spring. What you are really trying to grow is a strong root system to give great growth of a nice thick trunk in year two and possibly some good cordon canidates or strong canes for the top wire or midwire depending on how you want to train the vine. Just let it grow this year with several tops. That way you can prune the vine back next year to the thickest best positioned cane to a few buds and let it grow.



Still learning the proper terminology, Rich. LOL
I was looking at a presentation given in Iowa for training systems and confused the curtain term (cordon) with the trunk.

I took another look at your web site again, spending more time in your research section, particularly the phase 2 vine training and canopy management. Very interesting and very useful for a neophyte like me. New growers should be looking at that if not already.

So, in essence, I should just leave the new vines alone this year and concentrate on getting the posts and trellis system in place for next year.

Thanks for the assistance again.

Bob


----------



## grapeman

Just keep the vines healthy and growing. The big thing is to keep the weeds down around them. That way they pump a lot of food into the root systems and build a good healthy root system. That makes them blast off in year two. Marquette has a fairly slim trunk anyway so if you try to develop a potential trunk this year to use next, it will likely be too thin.


----------



## gird123

*https://www.nevinesupply.com*

So I ordered 3 vines from https://www.nevinesupply.com 

Thank you,

Nate


----------



## vinividivici

No doubt that they are very busy, as their web site mentions, but they seem to be lacking in customer service relations. A lot of other vine suppliers have already completed their shipping for this year. Good luck with it!

Cheers!
Bob


----------



## vinividivici

As I've mentioned in my earlier posts, I'm using Blue Growth Tubes for my vines. Looking into them, they are coming along nicely with good growth.

But, I also noticed what looks like tiny clusters on them. If these are actual grape clusters growing, I should be pinching them off, right?

If so, I now have a problem whereby I can't reach down into the tube to do that. As they are growing fairly fast, should I just wait until the vine gets closer to the top to clip them off?

I don't want to remove the tubes as that would be a major PIA and hard to put them back on without damaging the vines.

Bob


----------



## ibglowin

Not the greatest customer support for sure. Hope they come through for you (and still have some to sell!)


----------



## ibglowin

Just in case they don't come through for you try Double A Vineyards next time. I ordered through them last year and even though it was just a small order of 6 vines IIRC. They shipped out fast, and arrived in great shape. High quality, super customer service to boot. Would definitely do business with them again.


----------



## grapeman

Both Double A Vineyards and Northeast VIne Supply are family run businesses. The difference is in size. Double A has at least two generations involved now with quite a few employees. NE Vine Supply has Andy and his wife India involved. His vines are top notch quality and he will get them to you. If you don't hear from him in a week, call back and leave a message if necessary. Sometimes we need to cut small businesses some slack in their customer service to allow the company to grow to support that extra customer service. There are many large businesses that when you call customer service, you get some outsourced service in Pakistan or wherever, you can hardly understand them and they read from a script. When you call either Double A or NE Vine Supply, you get a US citizen who knows their product. Double A even hired a former Cornell grape person to work in customer service to assist small growers.


----------



## AlFulchino

additionally Andy and India are expecting...and i think it sometime in June....not saying this is why you did not hear back..but it could be...good people they are


----------



## vinividivici

As I've mentioned in my earlier posts, I'm using Blue Growth Tubes for my vines. Looking into them, they are coming along nicely with good growth.

But, I also noticed what looks like tiny clusters on them. If these are actual grape clusters growing, I should be pinching them off, right?

If so, I now have a problem whereby I can't reach down into the tube to do that. As they are growing fairly fast, should I just wait until the vine gets closer to the top to clip them off?

I don't want to remove the tubes as that would be a major PIA and hard to put them back on without damaging the vines.

Bob


----------



## grapeman

Those are flower clusters. You can leave them there for the time being and see what happens to them. A lot of times they don't pollinate enough to cause problems with the vine. Later when you remove the tubes, remove the few clusters that form now.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> Those are flower clusters. You can leave them there for the time being and see what happens to them. A lot of times they don't pollinate enough to cause problems with the vine. Later when you remove the tubes, remove the few clusters that form now.



As always, thanks, Grapeman.

When I watered yesterday, I noticed a bunch of the vines are almost at the top of the tubes. Will be interesting to see what they turn into.

Bob


----------



## gird123

So I have 120 feet between posts approximately 18 vines at 6' spacing. I'm planning on doing 2 rows of Marquette grapes for a total of 36 plants. My vines from https://www.nevinesupply.com arrived. The vines look ok.












My first 3 vines.

How much do you water in the first year? second? and so on? We are very dry and all the water from now until October will be from the drip line.


----------



## vinividivici

Nice setup, Gird. I'll let one of the experts respond to your question, but I know the soil needs to be very moist, especially during this time of the year. You'll probably be fine with the drip line. 

That's also a cute vineyard worker!

I'm jealous you can use a post hole digger. I'm going to have to rent a Toro Dingo powered augur to do mine.

Good luck!

Bob


----------



## grapeman

What are you going to use for intermediate posts? You will need something every 20-24 feet between the end posts. Sorry but I can't advise you on drip water to apply in a dry hot climate. Maybe Ibglowin can tell you how much he nneded the first year. Sorry things did not go well with the vine supplier. I won't make excuses for him.


----------



## ibglowin

I am putting 1G per vine per day right now. Our temps have been 91-93 this week. I am at ~6500ft EL. Vines are growing nicely and look happy, a little wilted right before the H2O kicks in but that seems fair, make em look for water just a bit.


----------



## gird123

Hi all,

I have 7' t post for the inner post. Will that work?

I know Al and grapeman already answer do you tred this, but I'm going to ask again. I planted the first 3 at 6 feet, should i plant at 7, 8 or 9? I have room. 

Bob do you have any current picks?

Nate


----------



## jtstar

I used t post for my inner post I put them about sixteen feet apart in the row. I also planted my vine eight feet apart with the rows ten feet apart


----------



## gird123

I need to spread my vines out. I think I will go 8' from now on.


----------



## grapeman

With you being in an arid climate, you can get by fine at 6 foot spacing. They will fill 8 feet fine eventually, so that will work also. It is really up to you.


----------



## gird123

Then i will stick with 6'. its hard to make decisions when you have no clue.


----------



## Randoneur

To give you an idea of how early these are - mine have started to change color already! Is there is Pinot Noir parentage in these grapes?


----------



## grapeman

Yes it is.


----------



## grapeman

Pinot Noir was one of the parents of Ravat 262 which is one of the parents of Marquette.


----------



## vinividivici

*Question on 1X Vines - Accelerate Growth Process?*

The Marquettes I planted were 1X vines. As can be seen in the following pictures, they are very vigorous and are at a height over four feet.

Do I need to wait two more years before attempting grape growth or can I do that next year (year two for my planting) as they are 1X to begin with?

I'm not trying to rush things (ok, maybe a little!) but I also don't want to wait another year if it's not necessary.


----------



## jtstar

Are these vine still in the grow tubes if so get the grow tubes off of them and start training them on a trellis system and you should wait three years from the time you planted them into the ground they are looking great and watch out for the rabbits they will chew on the young plants


----------



## vinividivici

jtstar said:


> Are these vine still in the grow tubes if so get the grow tubes off of them and start training them on a trellis system and you should wait three years from the time you planted them into the ground they are looking great and watch out for the rabbits they will chew on the young plants



Hmmm. The grow tubes instructions just say to remove before winter. I was going to leave them on until I get my trellis system in place no later than October. 

Getting back to the 1X question, though: does the 1X size mean that I can start two years from now due to the size and root system of the 1X?

Thanks,
Bob


----------



## jtstar

Did you just plant them this year if so I would wait two years starting with next spring then only let them produce 50 percent yield then the next year let them have a full crop. I live here in Nebraska and when they get above the grow tubes I take the tube off and tie the plants to an electric fence post or cane and let it grow up that until you can put it on the trellis system and start training the plant. I do this because it get to hot for the plant in the grow tube and can burn it and this way it has a chance to start to harden off for winter which get real cold out here.


----------



## vinividivici

jtstar said:


> Did you just plant them this year if so I would wait two years starting with next spring then only let them produce 50 percent yield then the next year let them have a full crop. I live here in Nebraska and when they get above the grow tubes I take the tube off and tie the plants to an electric fence post or cane and let it grow up that until you can put it on the trellis system and start training the plant. I do this because it get to hot for the plant in the grow tube and can burn it and this way it has a chance to start to harden off for winter which get real cold out here.



Sounds reasonable. What kind of trellis do you use? I'm thinking of the 4-arm Kniffen (two wire), but have also seen the Geneva double trellis.

Oh, yeah, I planted them this past late April. 

Cheers!
Bob


----------



## jtstar

I just use a two wire trellis system my marquettes are just three year old since I planted them so I only let them do fifty precent this year next year will be the first full crop that they will produce for me


----------



## grapeman

Those vines are right on track for first crop at three years. Next spring you can cut them back to three buds and develop the trunk. With a good year you can also form the cordons on them. Then in year three you can take some crop. Youc can leave a few clusters next year to see how they taste. In the third spring, prune all the secondary shoots down to the cane (pre growth). Then let the shoots develop from the cordons. That will give two or three clusters per shoot for a moderate crop.

With all that said, I have Marquette in my systems trial on four training systems. The yields are approximately 3-4 tons on top wire cordon and VSP, 5 tons on the Scott Henry and approximately 8-10 tons on the Modified GDC I have developed. These are three year old Marquette vines. DO NOT EXPECT THAT KIND OF CROP, but this shows what they are capable of. More information to follow some day.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> Those vines are right on track for first crop at three years. Next spring you can cut them back to three buds and develop the trunk. With a good year you can also form the cordons on them. Then in year three you can take some crop. Youc can leave a few clusters next year to see how they taste. In the third spring, prune all the secondary shoots down to the cane (pre growth). Then let the shoots develop from the cordons. That will give two or three clusters per shoot for a moderate crop.
> 
> With all that said, I have Marquette in my systems trial on four training systems. The yields are approximately 3-4 tons on top wire cordon and VSP, 5 tons on the Scott Henry and approximately 8-10 tons on the Modified GDC I have developed. These are three year old Marquette vines. DO NOT EXPECT THAT KIND OF CROP, but this shows what they are capable of. More information to follow some day.



Thanks, Grapeman. Those yields seem phenomenal.


----------



## grapeman

The yields are phenominal and a bit scary at times, like when I see them!


----------



## ibglowin

Holy Moly Batman, I mean Grapeman........

That is incredible!



grapeman said:


> The yields are approximately 3-4 tons on top wire cordon and VSP, 5 tons on the Scott Henry and approximately 8-10 tons on the Modified GDC I have developed. These are three year old Marquette vines. DO NOT EXPECT THAT KIND OF CROP, but this shows what they are capable of. More information to follow some day.


----------



## vinividivici

*Tube Tops Off!*

I removed the blue growth tubes this afternoon, with some difficulty due to the amount of growth above them. And found a couple of surprises: my first micro-crop of Marquette grapes.







Nice trunk development, too, some very thick and a bunch are bifurcated.

Glad I removed the tubes, as the lower part of the vine was moist and not getting enough aeration.


----------



## ibglowin

And so it begins......

Very nice little surprise!


----------



## vinividivici

*Trellis Question*

I've got heavy gauge steel fence posts I'm considering for the trellis.

I put six of them in the ground yesterday. However, the top of the posts are 54" high rather than 72". I'm going to do the four-arm Kniffen style.

Can I set the bottom wire at 30" and the top wire at 54"? Or something else?

I'll also be using 4'x4' wooden posts and earth anchors at the row ends.

Thanks,

Bob


----------



## AlFulchino

just got an email from a g-strands.com website they have a trellis wiring system set up that is worth a look

ps. No Mike i didnt say g string...so stop googling that...no wires there...just man traps


----------



## ibglowin

Googling that from work = a big No No.......


----------



## grapeman

54" is way too short for a 4 arm-kniffen system and especially only 24" separation between the cordons. You would do well to use posts 6 feet out of the ground. Don't skimp on the trellis- it is the backbone of your crop.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> 54" is way too short for a 4 arm-kniffen system and especially only 24" separation between the cordons. You would do well to use posts 6 feet out of the ground. Don't skimp on the trellis- it is the backbone of your crop.



Thanks, Rich. I surmised as much but needed expert advice.

Al: g-strands looks interesting. Sent a note to them re prices, minimum order quantities, etc.

Thanks,

Bob


----------



## AlFulchino

glad to help Bob

Mike, stop googling while working...they got you on a leash!


----------



## JasonY

*Planting a vineyard*

I found this thread while looking for anything I can find about growing grapes. It has given me a ton of useful info. My wife and I are planning on planting an acre of Marquette's next spring and building a winery while the vines are maturing over the next few years.


----------



## ibglowin

You might get started early by checking the new thread started by Boyd. He has Marquette grapes for sale and it sounds like he is close by!


----------



## jtstar

I'm not sure that I would put all my eggs in one basket I would look around at the different wineries in your area and see what they are growing and what kind of wine they are selling


----------



## vinividivici

*What Wire Gauge Should be Used For Trellis?*

I was going to order the new plastic wire that Al Fulchino gave a link to, but the spool length is way too much for what I need.

So now, I'm going to use the standard wire. Searched the forums, but found only one reference to 12 gauge.

Opinions?

Thanks,
Bob


----------



## grapeman

hIGH tENSILE 12.5 GUAGE WIRE. Orchard Valley Supply has shorter than spool lengths available. Be sure to use high tensile.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> hIGH tENSILE 12.5 GUAGE WIRE. Orchard Valley Supply has shorter than spool lengths available. Be sure to use high tensile.



Thanks, Rich. Sorry to hear about your rotten grapes. Hopefully next year will give you a bountiful harvest. Your winery equipment looks great, though!

Bob


----------



## vinividivici

*Starting to Look Like a Vineyard*

I "planted" twenty 4x4"x8' posts the last two weeks and will be adding the end-post anchor systems. The trellis wire and accessories are on order. Some of the vines are five feet high. Photo update below:






They are on a two-way slope. All the posts are plumb, but don't look it in the photo!

Will be asking some questions regarding pruning next...


----------



## vinividivici

*Pruning Questions*

Rich (Grapeman), I noticed in your thread that your vines appear to have double trunks. Mine also have a bunch with two trunks.

Regarding pruning, I thought I read somewhere to leave the doubles of the first year until the following Spring pruning. That way, if one gets destroyed, you still have one trunk. Is there any reason not to just leave the doubles permanently? 

Also, you mentioned pruning mine back to three buds or so. Is the count starting from the ground up or from the bottom wire on my 4-arm Kniffen?

And I should wait until early next Spring to do the pruning?

Seems pruning is the most confusing and difficult part of the growing process for beginners.

Thanks!

Bob


----------



## gird123

Bob - Your grapes look great.

Grapeman - Are you willing to share pics of the modified GDC that you developed?


----------



## grapeman

Bob I use a lot of double trunks and the use of them depends on the hardiness of the variety in your location. For areas where they could die back from cold, a second trunk gives insurance in case one dies. It also depends on the training system used. With VSP a single trunk is probably best as you can form a T with it at the wire. Top wire also works best with a single wire. There really is no hard and fast method of anything. Let your style evolve as you find what works best for you.

I would wait until late winter/very early spring to prune and yes after the first years growth, go ahead and cut back to 2 or 3 buds. That will push nice vigorous growth next year which will give you enough shoot to begin some type of trunk formation.

I will soon have a bit more time to help you .

gird123 there are some pictures of the modofied GDC on my posts at Fine Vine Wines.
http://forum.finevinewines.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1474&PN=127 There ar other pictures of various stages in among all the pages of posts. Again when I have more time I will write up a preliminary report on this system and may decide to give more information on it. At this time I am not recommending anyone switch to it or any other system until I collect more data.


----------



## gird123

Wow. Very cool.


----------



## vinividivici

Thanks once again, Rich. I know it's a busy time of the year but your comments and insight benefit a lot of us.


----------



## vinividivici

*Four-Arm Kniffin Wire Spacing?*

I've seen a few different diagrams, but for my area/climate, any recommendations for the spacing from the ground to the first wire and then the space between that and the top wire?

I thought I saw a reference to 36" and then 24"?

Got my trellis wire and accessories being delivered today and the info will be very helpful.

Thanks,

Bob


----------



## grapeman

36-40 inches and then the top of the post- so if 6foot to the top, it would be 72 inches. Alternately you can staple a few inches down instead of on top of the post, but the post can crack at the staple and it can pull out once in a while.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> 36-40 inches and then the top of the post- so if 6foot to the top, it would be 72 inches. Alternately you can staple a few inches down instead of on top of the post, but the post can crack at the staple and it can pull out once in a while.



Thanks, Rich. My posts are close to 7' above ground, so I think I'll do that.

Just got the wire, gripples, post vises, etc. today.

Bob


----------



## vinividivici

*Trellis System Done*

Finally finished the Marquette vineyard today. Other than trying to untangle 500' of wire over the past few days, it went well I think. I used Orchard Valley trellis supplies exclusively.

Some pics:













Bob


----------



## grapeman

Well done Bob. The spinning Jenny is well worth the $50 cost to eliminate the work you had to do untangling it.
http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=102&idcategory=10


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> Well done Bob. The spinning Jenny is well worth the $50 cost to eliminate the work you had to do untangling it.
> http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=102&idcategory=10



Thanks, Rich. And yes, in hindsight, I should have ordered it. But I thought it was more appropriate for large vineyards. I also should have realized that the 500' of tightly wound wire would go nuclear when I clipped the binding ties! 

Next up, Frontenac vines for next Spring...

I hope you've made all the repairs to your damaged systems up there.


----------



## ibglowin

Looking good Bob!


----------



## Randoneur

Bob, that looks like a really nice site for your vineyard, look like lots of open area for wind to dry the morning dew off the vines. Good growing!!!


----------



## saddlebronze

*Growing Marquette on poor soil*

Hey folks, I am in Northwest Connecticut and was thinking about growing some Marquette. The only issue is my soil is very thin and full of clay. I have bedrock poking up in lots of places. I dug around with my backhoe and there are some spots where the soil goes down a few feet, but that is it. There are tall oak trees back there, so I think vines will grow. Any thoughts? Would I need to mound up some soil from somewhere else on the site to make rows to plant? I know its a weird question, but I have to live here!


----------



## Randoneur

saddlebronze said:


> Hey folks, I am in Northwest Connecticut and was thinking about growing some Marquette. The only issue is my soil is very thin and full of clay. I have bedrock poking up in lots of places. I dug around with my backhoe and there are some spots where the soil goes down a few feet, but that is it. There are tall oak trees back there, so I think vines will grow. Any thoughts? Would I need to mound up some soil from somewhere else on the site to make rows to plant? I know its a weird question, but I have to live here!



I'm no expert here, but if the rock under the soil is broken up so the roots can grow down through them, then I think the grapes would grow ok. Some of the best vineyards in France are rock fields unsuitable for anything else. Setting trellis posts would be a challenge.


----------



## saddlebronze

That's what i am thinking, since there are Oak trees on it, the rock must be broken underneath.


----------



## vinividivici

Randoneur said:


> I'm no expert here, but if the rock under the soil is broken up so the roots can grow down through them, then I think the grapes would grow ok. Some of the best vineyards in France are rock fields unsuitable for anything else. Setting trellis posts would be a challenge.



I agree after reading other posts on this topic.

Another good example is the Finger Lakes region. A lot of limestone strata just below (and above in spots) the soil and they have some kick-*** wines.

The knowledgeable vintners say the worse the soil conditions, the harder the vines have to work to get established and they produce some of the finest wines.

Good luck and let us know how things are next Spring when you plant your vines. FWIW, I would order 1X vines that have a more vigorous and lengthy root system with a better developed vine. The 1X is one year plus growth. That's what I planted this past April.

Cheers!

Bob


----------



## AlFulchino

it may have been previously said...but consider multiple trunks for another reason besides cold injury and mechanical damage....crown gall, caused by a bacteria in many soils that finds its way in to the wood from mechanical or pruning damage


----------



## saddlebronze

Thanks guys. I am looking at Marqutte for the Red, any similar Hardy whites?


----------



## UBB

saddlebronze said:


> Thanks guys. I am looking at Marqutte for the Red, any similar Hardy whites?




I'd consider LaCrescent.


----------



## grapeman

LaCrescent can be a good white, but it lacks disease resistance so spraying is pretty much needed. There are many whites that will do great for you. Try the wine from some of them to see if you like it and then figure out which one you want to grow. Check out Northeast Vine Supply in southern Vermont to read descriptions of many of them or go to my website and look under Grapes for a few I grow. The experts say St Pepin needs a pollinator vine, but mine bear well without concern (like 30 pounds per vine).


----------



## saddlebronze

I am very excited. I ordered the vines for my test plot which I will plant next spring while I concentrate on clearing the land for the larger plot. I went with Marquette, Lacrescent, Chardonel, Frontenac, St. Vincent, and Traminette. Anything I sould add to the soil of the test plot while it overwinters?


----------



## vinividivici

Rich,

Last year you mentioned pruning back to the last three buds for my Marquette (2nd year).

Just to be sure, is that three buds starting at the ground level of the trunk, i.e, the very bottom three buds?

Also, I think you mentioned that you are pruning now on another thread. So I should/could prune back per your rec above?



Bob


----------



## grapeman

Just to be sure Bob, you planted these last year so these are now going into their second year of growth when it begins? If so then yes, prune back to the lower 3 buds. It won't hurt to leave an extra one but when they begin growing you really only need one or two to form the trunk this coming year. If they are already two years in the ground, then you don't need to prune back that far unless they didn't grow at all lasdt year. Catch me up to speed here so I don't need to go back too far rereading the posts and I will let you know.


----------



## vinividivici

Rich,

That's what's somewhat confusing. I planted 1X vines so aren't sure if this is the second year or year 2.5. LOL

Last August, after you saw my photos on this thread, you said:

"Originally Posted by grapeman View Post
Those vines are right on track for first crop at three years. Next spring you can cut them back to three buds and develop the trunk. With a good year you can also form the cordons on them. Then in year three you can take some crop. Youc can leave a few clusters next year to see how they taste. In the third spring, prune all the secondary shoots down to the cane (pre growth). Then let the shoots develop from the cordons. That will give two or three clusters per shoot for a moderate crop.

With all that said, I have Marquette in my systems trial on four training systems. The yields are approximately 3-4 tons on top wire cordon and VSP, 5 tons on the Scott Henry and approximately 8-10 tons on the Modified GDC I have developed. These are three year old Marquette vines. DO NOT EXPECT THAT KIND OF CROP, but this shows what they are capable of. More information to follow some day."

The vines grew out of the tops of the blue growth tubes and I've got canes trained on the lower wire in both directions. Seems tempting to not prune, but I understand what you're saying about developing the trunk. I also found a couple of small clusters of ripe grapes that were hidden inside the bottom of the tubes!


----------



## grapeman

Thanks for the reminder. I was tired and didn't feel like retracing the thread, so that helps. If you planted 1-x last year they grew one year since transplanting-period. You could plant 10 year old vines and they are in the first year the first year of growth. Being 1-x gave them a headstart with a healthy root system, so by cutting back like I said, they will grow fast and strong this year. If you try to fruit or grow from what you have now, you will always have a small base to the vine. Future growth could actually be larger than the lower growth. Waiting until the third year to fruit is still very quick and 5 years from now you will be glad you followed this route. If you were growing Vinifera you would be at least a year behind in cropping and vine establishment.


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## vinividivici

Thanks, Rich. Could/should I start pruning this week?


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## grapeman

It is late enough now, you could begin anytime you would like and the weather allows. It is 0 here today and then by Wed mid 50s expected. On the yoyo again, it must be spring!


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## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> It is late enough now, you could begin anytime you would like and the weather allows. It is 0 here today and then by Wed mid 50s expected. On the yoyo again, it must be spring!



Great. It was 7 here, but supposed to be in the low 60s on Wednesday.

Another question for you or anyone else: Do you add any soil amendments in the second year? I know you don't in the first year.


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## grapeman

It depends on the soil and it's condition. If vigor is high, don't add.


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## Duster

Wow, what a good thread! 
I too have been bitten by the vineyard bug. I plan on ordering Marquette vines this week from http://shop.reddogvineyards.com/main.sc. Just trying to do some last min research to ensure this is the verity I want to start with. (Any suggestions?) Also Red Dog Vineyards offers propagated potted vines much cheaper that bare root vines at other vineyards. Is there a difference in the two that I need to be concerned with? 

I know I'm a few years away but what seems to be the best pruning method for Marquette grapes, Cane or Spur?

Also I really want to put up a couple of rows with a VSP trellis only because that is what I think of when I think of a wine grape vineyard, However after seeing the results of the GDC I may really need to rethink that. Grapemane, your photos we no longer viewable of your modified GDC so if possible I would like some more info on this as time allows. 

vinividivici your vineyard looks great. Very Professional. I hope to be about 1 year behind ya


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## saddlebronze

Marquette really seems to be the way to go for reds right now among the 3rd generation hybrids. Since you are in Indiana, you might consider some Nortron as well later on. The wine is harder to make from it, but it is very hardy and the wine is very good if it is handled right. Something to aspire to. IMHO


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## vinividivici

Hey Duster,

Great job photoshopping that fish! (j.k.)

I looked at your vine site but have questions on their "potted vines". How long is the root system, how tall is the plant, etc. It's an unknown that I don't like. Their prices for the potted vines lead me to believe that they are small plants with small root systems. I could be wrong. You should check with them before ordering.

All of the vines I order are bare root, 1x, meaning larger and more vigorous than the standard. I get them from DoubleA vineyards. As you'll note from reading this long thread, developing the root system is the priority in the first year. The roots averaged about 18-20" long and very full. I trimmed 1/4 of the length after soaking in water for an hour before planting. 

The trellis system should coincide with the vine variety. I'm using the 4-arm Kniffin trellis for my Marquette. 

I don't know if you had a chance to read the entire length of this thread, but there's a ton of expert advice from some very knowledgeable growers. It's very long, due to all the questions I've been asking and some other Marquette growers.

Hope to read your progress here and some pictures of your ground with the vines planted.


Bob


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## Duster

vinividivici, That steel head, along with a few others and some great Salmon came from Pere Marquette river in Michigan on a Fly with 6lb tippet. Absolute Blast , a must do for anyone who enjoys the sport.

as far as the propagated potted vines, this is what I found.


> There potted vines are grown from dormant hardwood cuttings that have been collected during December, January, and February. The potted vines typically have 6 to 14 inches of top growth. They are rooted in the greenhouse and grown until May when they are hardened off to outdoor conditions. These vines are vigorously growing and ready to plant in the field when you receive them. They are propagated in biodegradable paper pots known as plant bands from Monarch Manufacturing, a plant propagation and protection company. These bands measure six inches deep and are two inches wide. They are open on the bottom and have holes punched through the sides for the roots to reach out. The vines are meant to be planted together with the biodegradable pot. We grow the cuttings in a soilless growing mix to avoid the transfer of any soil born diseases! The pots require a small hole that is a minimum of eight inches deep and about three inches wide. Transplant stress is greatly reduced since the roots are never disturbed. Just drop them into the hole, backfill with dirt, and water them in. This is a very fast and efficient way to plant vines (and a lot easier on the back!!!). The potted vines are shipped mid to late May. The potted vines can be planted throughout the growing season!!! We recommend that grow tubes be used in windy, dry locations for the first month as the vine's root system gets established in it's permanent location.


Also, if you had to do it over again, and I'm sure you will, would you use the grow tubes? There seems to be a lot of back n forth controversy on the web about them.


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## grapeman

I have rooted vines in the plant bands from Monarch. They work, but in essence are one year behind bareroot vines. The bareroot vines were started the previous year where the bands are from this year. They grow fine, but are behind the bareroot. I will see if I can find any pictures for you. Some of them have been lost when software was upgraded on these sites.

Here is a link to some of them growing
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f25/some-vineyard-pictures-13694/index3.html


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## Duster

that is a nice looking vineyard Grapeman. I know it's pruning season and i'm sure your busy but I cant get over the yield difference you mentioned early using the GDC trellis system. I have been doing a lot of homework on different trellis the last few days and was wondering if the increased yield is a result of more sun in the renewal and fruiting zones or is it simply due to the fact that you can fit more vines per acre? Also how difficult was using a high trellis wire with Marquette grapes that from what I read tend to have an upward growth habit much like other vinifera verities? 
I would really like to do a VSP system however if the vines preform better on something else then I'm game. I was thinking about the Scott Henry as well in order to double the number of fruiting canes but I am still stuck on that upward growth habit.
I wish vinividivici was far enough along for some yield info on his Kniffin trellis. Maybe I'm reading too much into this but my concern there would be that the lower foliage would shade too much of the upper fruiting area however I do like the ability of running 4 fruiting canes from the same vine if the Marquette species is vigorous enough to do so, any thoughts?


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## grapeman

Duster go to my website www.hipvineyard.com and go to the research tab. I cover 4 arm kniffen quite a bit there. It also announces my acceptance for the NE SARE grant I have been awarded to continue data collection on the four training systems using four varieties of grapes, including Marquette. The first step for you is to get the grapes in the ground and growing. You can also put in your posts and string the first wire or two to tie your bamboo supports to. Then next year add whatevere wires you need for the training system chosen and train the vines to it then and later years.

Marquette is not upright growth habit and trails very well. We have Marquette at the Cornell Willsboro Farm Cold Hardy Trial on Top Wire with spur pruning and it does very well.

I will have more results on comparing TWC, VSP Mod GDC and Scott-Henry at the end of this year. These comparisons have not yet been done side by side so we really don't know yet what is best. Some work is being done in the Northern Grapes Project involving Cornell and about a dozen other states and Universities including U Minn. I suggested this be done during the planning stages of the 5 year 5.2 million dollar grant application. 2.5 million has been awarded as the USDA Budget is up for renewal. It is being done is several states to get better ideas of what works better for these cold climate hybrids.Have patience and between all of us we will have some better guidelines in a few years.


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## vinividivici

Duster, you know I was kidding about the Steelhead, right? 

We've got some great Salmon fishing up this way, just twenty miles north of us. They come into the Salmon river from Lake Ontario. Catches of up to 30 lbs or more aren't uncommon. Also Bass fishing in Oneida Lake 13 miles south of us.

Re blue growth tubes, I will, in fact, be using them again for the Frontenac and Corot Noir being delivered next month. I set them aside just for this purpose.

Our house and mini-vineyard sit on a hill, in the open and pretty windy. The vines planted last year did very well, overflowing the tops of the tubes by July or so. We can also get frosts up to June or so. Another benefit I found was during watering. I put the hose (without nozzle) in the top of the tube and the water flowed down the inside and really soaked the base of the plant.

If you ever get up this way (NE of Syracuse, NY), let me know. 

Bob


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## Duster

good info gents, I did dig around on your website Grapeman, very interesting and I do believe I will be visiting it more. Thank you for all you do.

Bob,
Ya I know your just messing, no worries 
Actually I do get that way on occasion, I have a lot of family living in and around Deposit NY, just a few miles south of ya. My wife, kids and I try to make it up that way at least once every couple of years.
So be careful what ya offer, I may take you up on it


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## Duster

Grapeman, Bob,
I'm a bit confused, can I run 4 cordons from a single two trunk vine? If so what kind of effects will this have on yield and grape/wine quality? If this is not advisable then what is the advantage of the GDC or the Kniffen over the HWC?

Lastly, my daughter "future grape stomper" wanted to add this =


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## grapeman

That is a good question Duster. We have been brainwashed into believing all grapes behave like the vinifera grapes grown in California and Europe. The fact is a hybrid is a cross of those grapes and some native american grape species- yes I said species as there are several growing in the Americas. The most common is vitis riparia and that is used in a lot of cold climate grapes. As a result of the genetics and an effect commonly seen in hybrids of all species oe sub species, the resulting offspring is often more vigorous than either parent. Hybrid grapes are much more vigorous than the vinifera side of the family.

Your question is the basis of my studies involving training systems on quality and yield of the grapes. I can't say definitivly at this point if this is true or not,Initial results show that we can improve yield on a single vine by selecting the properly matched double fruiting zone training system to the variety of grape, vigor of the site and your location. This is why I told you to get the grapes growing and I can soon give you more information (within another couple years).

You might ask - "How is this possible?" The vines just want to grow vigorously. They will put out a certain potential amount of growth per year, depending on all input factors. For sake of example let's say the vine wants to grow 200 feet in one year along all it's shoots together. If I use a single fruiting zone such as VSP or TWC, I would want about three shoots per foot or about 4 inches apart. Now if my vine spacing is about 8 feet, I would get 3x8 or 24-25 shoots growing and each having about 2 clusters apiece (total of 50 clusters). Now divide the 200 feet of growth by the 25 shoots and you get shoot length of 8 feet each. If you are on either VSP or TWC, you will get extreme shading (VSP) or vines growing all over the place again with shading. To combat that, you are forced to hedge or skirt the vines.

Now take a double fruiting zone- with either a single trunk split 4 ways or a double trunk each split 2 ways. Now in 8 feet of space, you get 50 shoots. Divide your potential growth of 200 feet by the 50, and your average shoot length is 4 feet each. Because of that, you don't need much skirting or hedging. You also have 50 shoots times 2 clusters per shoot for a total of 100 clusters. Because you haven't chopped off any shoots with the double, the shoots have as many or more leaves per shoot as the single fruiting zone vines. Therefore they can ripen the crop which can be as much as double the single fruiting zone system.

What I have initially found is that the double fruiting zone systems yield 50 to 250 percent more than the single fruiting zone systems (in hybrids) with equal or better juice quality.

For a more complete explanation, you may be able to read an article I am writing on this for Wines and Vines in a coming publication. I will let you know if they pick it up and when. Dr. Justine Vanden Heuvel of Cornell is working with me on this. She is my current technical advisor in the 2012 NE SARE grant titled - Cold Climate Grapes- Increased Sustainability through Improved Yield and Quality


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## ibglowin

Wow, great explanation Rich! I look forward to reading the article as well.


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## vinividivici

Excellent info for this and other threads. Thanks again, Rich.!

Bob


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## Duster

Rich,
you are the man 
You bet I'll be looking for the article. 
My vines are ordered (8 Marquette) with plans to expand every year until the misses says enough. I am focusing now on a trellis system. I know I could actually wait and construct my trellis system next summer, given your response, I may do that in order for you to get a bit further along in your testing. I'm just excited and impatient. not a good trait for a wine maker. LOL

Seriously, thank you for your advice.


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## grapeman

Like I said before, plant the vines and put your posts in now. Then you can add one or even two wires to get the vine started. The top wire is the only one that would need to be put in differently depending on the training system chosen.


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## Duster

I got my trellis system up today
vine should be here soon. This warm weather were having has me anxious to get them in the ground.


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## vinividivici

Great looking start to your vineyard, Duster!


Bob


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## vinividivici

*Hard Frost Tonight - Question*

It's supposed to get down to the teens tonight. Due to the very warm weather for the last couple of weeks, the vines have buds. 

The Marquette vines have buds but no bud break. As this is a cold weather variety and no bud break yet, do I need to do anything? Should I cover the plants or not worry about it? 


Bob


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## ibglowin

Very nice trellis. Those Marquette are gonna be hangin' from some great wires!


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## grapeman

Good luck with the little vineyard Duster.
Bob they should be alright if they haven't opened yet. It is COLD outside today. Our power went off at 4AM due to high winds snapping a pole on the next street over (a mile away). The sky was lighting up like lightning as the wires crossed dozens of times and would arc every time. Finally after 20 minutes of that the power went out. They just got it back on-7 hours later. It is 20 degrees outside with a steady 40 mph wind. The funniest thing was when I drove by about an hour ago they had 9 trucks total with 2 being cherrie pickers and even a backhoe along with about 30 men, all but two standing around or leaning on something watching the 2 do the work.


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## vinividivici

Thanks, Rich. I'll be double-checking the buds this afternoon, but I don't think any have opened. Will save 32 trash bags if they haven't.

That's one hell of a wind chill up your way. We are finally getting over 30 right now, with a strong wind. The electric light show you had must have been "entertaining" to say the least!

I know what you're talking about re the utility workers. Don't get me started on that subject...


Bob


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## Trieste

Very glad to find this thread! I'm in the early stages of planning a small vineyard in coastal CT, and Marquette is looking like a good choice. I'm sure to have questions once I've reviewed all the posts.


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## vinividivici

Welcome to the Marquette thread, Trieste. Loads of excellent information here and very helpful members to answer your questions.

My wife and I stayed a couple of times at a friend's townhouse in Mystic, a couple of doors down from the bridge on the river. We had a great time.


Bob


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## Trieste

Bob, I'm not far from there at all - 1/2 mile from the bridge. Let me know if you're down this way again. Ordered my vines from NE vine supply today. Lots of work ahead. Anyone have advice about keeping deer away?


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## Brew and Wine Supply

Trieste said:


> Bob, I'm not far from there at all - 1/2 mile from the bridge. Let me know if you're down this way again. Ordered my vines from NE vine supply today. Lots of work ahead. Anyone have advice about keeping deer away?


 
30/30 or 30/06?


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## Trieste

Considered it. Neighbors complain about the holes in their garage.


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## vinividivici

Trieste said:


> Considered it. Neighbors complain about the holes in their garage.


 

I live in a rural area with lots of deer. They didn't bother the vines at all last summer. But, I'll be putting deer netting over the rows next year when I expect to have my first crop of grapes. 


Bob


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## grapeman

First crop of grapes on Marquette can look like this with a bit of good luck.


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## vinividivici

"First crop of grapes on Marquette can look like this with a bit of good luck."

A "bit of good luck" and a lot of expertise on your part, Rich. 

I hope to see something similar next year with my first crop. I'll need a 
lot of luck and a lot more expertise. 


Bob


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## Duster

Very nice Rich


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## Brew and Wine Supply

Trieste said:


> Considered it. Neighbors complain about the holes in their garage.


 
gun controll = a good aim... you'll miss garages..hit deer..lol


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## Trieste

Nice crop, Rich! I'm plowing and liming this weekend (current pH 5.1). I'm gonna go ahead and put in a few test vines this year, rather than wait.


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## grapeman

What you guys see there is a single 3 year old vine trained to my Modified GDC and had almost 30 pounds of grapes with a brix of 26, pH 3.1 and a TA of 1.1g/L which is actually lowish for Marquette. The vine had 5 pounds of one year pruned wood this spring. I showed this one so Bob can see what he might get!


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## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> What you guys see there is a single 3 year old vine trained to my Modified GDC and had almost 30 pounds of grapes with a brix of 26, pH 3.1 and a TA of 1.1g/L which is actually lowish for Marquette. The vine had 5 pounds of one year pruned wood this spring. I showed this one so Bob can see what he might get!



But could I get something like that with a 4-arm Kniffen trellis? I hope to! 

Thanks, Rich


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## grapeman

Don't count on that much, but they can be very productive so it is possible. I'm waiting to see what you get!


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## Duster

Rich,
This may be a dumb question and if so I'm sorry. I am new to grape growing. Will vines benefit from any type of fertilizer? It's not like I have seen "Miracle grow for grapes in the local lawn and garden section of Walmart"


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## grapeman

Grapes can be a tricky plant to fertilize. They do best for our purposes with a low to medium fertility program, especially nitrogen. We want grapes not all vines so avoid excessive nitrogen. A soil test is a good idea to give you a beginning point, then petiole tests are a better way to go after that. The petiole test just takes the leaf petiole (leaf stem) for analysis as it gives a better idea of what the vine is able to actually take up. Then you can balance it with a foliar spray. Whatever method you use, don't overapply.


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## Trieste

Grapeman, how tall is your modified GDC? The trend I'm seeing is 72" for the top wire of other trellis systems. Is this about right?


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## grapeman

The upper fruiting wire is at 6'-6" and the lower one is a bit over 5 feet. I am short so I have to stretch a bit, but it is fine. It allows for a bit longer shoots before they can hit the ground.


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## saddlebronze

Grapeman, is there a published article on your system somewhere? It looks like a half of a GDC, but don't know if it is public yet.


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## grapeman

No published paper of it, yet. It is my own design and is under development and testing. You guys are some of the first to see and hear about it. Dr. Justine Vanden Heuvel of Cornell is currently working with me on an article for my training systems trial, which includes this innovation. Yesterday we had a joint Extension and Hid-In-Pines Vineyard (me) hosted field meeting where I explained pruning and basic training involved in the trial. There will be a couple more meetings and a published final report at year end. It seems to be working well, but as any new product or system, there is a period of testing. 

I am finding some interesting results with the pruned wood from last year. All four of the training systems had similar wood produced which indicates the vines vigor. The Mod GDC and Scott Henry have two fruiting wires so you might think they would produce twice as much woood, but that isn't the case. The Scott Henry produced some more, but not the Mod GDC. It had a much heavier harvested crop, so it produced less wood per pound of fruit. A vine balance or vigor is usually given as pounds of fruiit produced per pound one year wood. Marquette averaged 10 pounds fruit per 3 pounds of wood or 3.33 to 1 indicating high vigor. The Mod GDC produced 25 pounds fruit per 3 pounds of wood or a bit over 8 to 1, indicating a much lower vigor.


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## Trieste

45 vines in the ground today. Good start for a home vineyard, and then we got 2 inches of rain. I'm excited about the Marquette


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## grapeman

Good luck with them Trieste. The rain should settle them in nicely.


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## vinividivici

Excellent start! Please post pics this Spring/Summer of the progress.
Are you using the Blue growth tubes or something similar?

Cheers,

Bob


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## ingoodspirits

What a great thread! My Grandfather started a Vineyard with 1500 Marquette's. He has now fallen into bad health so I have decided to step up to the plate. I have no knowledge of growing grapes, (Except the great info from the previous 18 pages) I'm hoping that he recovers enough to help guide me on this undertaking but otherwise I'm glad I found you guys! We havent done any pruning yet this year and there are some in there 1 year and some in there 3rd year. I'm guessing I need to hustle and get the pruning done here pretty soon. I guess I need to learn some more about these before I start asking questions.... only because I dont know what to ask. Lol


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## vinividivici

Welcome, Nate!

With that size vineyard and different growth stages, I'm sure some of our commercial growers will give you some excellent advice.

Where is it located? You might have some board members in your area that could assist you in person.

Keep posting with your questions. That's why I started the thread due to my inexperience and small vineyard. Pictures would be great, too.


Bob


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## grapeman

Welcome to the forum Nate. Glad you are "InGoodSpirits". You can fill out some basic information in our Vineyard Registry here:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/vineyards-wineries/. You can also look through that section to see who else is growing what.

The year old vines should be pruned back most of the way this year so that the new growth is robust and helps form a good strong trunk. Otherwise Marquette will tend to be pretty thin.
Twoi year old stuff try to get a well formed trunk and possibly your fruiting arms. What training system had your grandfather chosen for them? Three year old ones pruning depends on previous training and growth. When you get some answers post them here or better yet begin your own thread. That way we can all help you out and it makes it easier to follow your progress and questions.


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## ingoodspirits

Thanks for the warm welcome, I already feel like family  I'm looking forward joining the ranks! I dont know what you call the training he has done with them but he has split most of them at the base and run two trunks up to the cordone wire. as far as the yearlings, how much height should I leave? Oh, and we are located in Kalispell MT.


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## grapeman

How high is the cordon wire? If it is about 3 ft, it probably is Vertical Shoot Positioned. If it is 5-6 feet high then it is Top Wire Cordon. Check out the link to get an idea of what I am talking about.
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/photo/trellis/


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## ingoodspirits

The cordon wire is about 3 feet high, we still have to run the top wire for the shoots tho. So I believe that we are doing the Vertical Shoot.


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## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> How high is the cordon wire? If it is about 3 ft, it probably is Vertical Shoot Positioned. If it is 5-6 feet high then it is Top Wire Cordon. Check out the link to get an idea of what I am talking about.
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/photo/trellis/



Great photos, Rich. Exactly what I wanted to see, especially the "Training Trial" for TWC. I think I'll do what you mentioned: a 5' bamboo stake to the mid wire and possibly the twine up to the top wire until the trunk makes it up there.

I wish the darn rain would stop! Almost like last April, except the holes were filled with water.


Bob


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## vinoago

Okay, so I've never joined a message board before but after reading this thread start to finish I couldn't help but join. So glad to see its still going. I'm in the very early stages of planning my mini "vineyard", lots of reading books, threads, and watching youtube videos. From what I've read Marquette seems to be the grape for me, but I'm actually picking up my first bottle tonight to see if I like it. The thread has already answered a lot of my questions, but one I do have is this, I have a stockade fence around my property how far from it should I plant my vines? I was figuring 10 feet like another row of vines.


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## grapeman

Welcome to the forum. The 10 foot from the fence should be fine, unless it is so it casts a shadow on the vines.


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## vinividivici

Welcome, Vino. I assume you prefer dry reds? Marquette has a different taste than Merlot, Cab, etc. Good idea to taste a couple first. That's what I did before planting Marquette.


Bob


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## vinoago

Grapeman, thanks for the input, sunlight shouldn't be a problem. I'm just wondering how close i should plant to the fence, so I can maximize the space I have. 10 feet from the fence will limit my ability to add another row of vines down the road. But I don't want to compromise the quality to cram in more vines.

Vin, thanks for the welcome, you really started a great thread here. I do prefer dry reds; a good Merlot is actually what got me started drinking wine. My wife and I shared a bottle of Ledge Rock Hill Marquette last night. You are absolutely correct when you say it has a different taste. Still a nice dry red... just different. This was the only Marquette I could find locally, if you have any suggestions I'd be happy to hear them.


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## vinividivici

Vino,

Re the space between the fence and the closest row to it, you'll still need room to mow/maintain the weeds on the other side of the row. Unless you've got something to reach back there. But like Grapeman said, shade is a factor. I would also add air flow as another component.

Re the Marquette wine, I bought a couple of bottles from Lincoln Peak in Middlebury, VT. My wife and I have also tasted wine from Thousand Islands Winery in Alexandria Bay, NY. They are just north of us about 60 miles. Also Tug Hill Vineyards in Boonville, NY. Each winery's version was slightly different, but both were very enjoyable.

I believe we'll be seeing a lot more offerings in the near future as the wineries that planted a few years ago start bringing those grapes on line.

Mine should be ready in a year or two, with the Frontenac and Corot Noir about two-three years from now.


Bob

PS: I didn't know that Grapeman is now selling Marquette (and other fine wines!): http://hipvineyard.mybigcommerce.com/


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## AlFulchino

i havent read the whole thread but someone told me someone here was looking for bird netting..i have twelve rolls of vineside for sale..never used..contact if interested


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## vinividivici

*Marquette Pruning Question - 2nd Year*

I think Grapeman said to leave two or three buds on the vines for this year's growth. Should I prune all buds below the top 2 or 3? Here's a 
pic:


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## Duster

no answer yet vinividivici, Darn I was wanting to see what the experts had to say


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## grapeman

When we say leave 2-3 buds the second year we generally mean the LOWER two or three and cut off above that. With the one you show, it looks like the top is at least as big as a pencil so you can leave it the way you have and strip the lower buds off. If the cane you are leaving is really small it will lag behind and leave a weak point in the vine. By cutting back the the lower 2-3 buds, the new shoots for a nice trunk for the following year. Like I said though, if it is big enough just leave it like you have it. Marquette in general has a small diameter trunk.

Sorry guys, I have been busy and just plain missed this yesterday.


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## vinividivici

Thanks, Grapeman. I wound up taking off the lower buds yesterday as the overwhelming majority of the vines had a thick upper shoot. A few very small vines were left alone. 

As usual, great info and assistance! 

Bob


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## NorthCountryBoy

I am new to this game and reading through this has been a great wealth of information. 

My wife and I are considering growing this variety of grapes as well as maybe La Cresent to make our own wine. Even got my dad hooked on the idea. I have a little over 2 acres of land and was going to use half of that to start my own little vineyard. My dad on the other hand has about 27 acres of farmland of which he is considering using about 1 acre to start with to starting a little vineyard on (something to keep him busy in his retirement). I think his sole purpose is to sell the crop to the local winery who I believe has to buy their crop from California.

Please bear with me as I am a true novice at this. My question has is geared more to the soil on my dad's land. He has primarily clay, damn water will sit on it for days in the hot sun. Think it will actually evaporate before it will absorb into the ground. What would my dad need to do in order to get his land ready to put his first plant into the ground.

Your assistance in this would be greatly appreciated.

Wayne


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## grapeman

If the soil is Vergennes Clay, the site may not be very suitable for growing grapes on. Conditions you describe are exactly what you don't want for grapes. Go have a visit with Chris Granstrom of Lincoln Peak Vineyard and he can give your dad an idea if his soil will work for grapes. You can try to adjust the soil, but it is an uphill battle if it is too wet. On the upside, there should be a Market for Marquette.


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## NorthCountryBoy

I forgot to mention that his whole property is sloped in on way or another. That would help with drainage.


----------



## grapeman

LOL, most of the land in Vermont does slope one way or another!

When you need to buy more vines, don't forget Andy Farmer right there in Vt at Northeast Vine Supply.


----------



## NorthCountryBoy

Yeah, he is only maybe 29 to 30 minutes south of me.


----------



## kwebb

Anyone have any experience with growing Black Spanish an/or Blanc du Bois near Dallas with hard clay ("black gumbo") soil? Want to get started and based on research these varieties will do ok with soil and conditions in my area.


----------



## Corley5

Has anyone growing Marquettes had issues with the early bud break? I've read they are the earliest of the cold hardy varieties. I had some new growth burn off from frost on some this spring. They're all pushing new growth and not all were affected. Some are just farther along. This is their second year so I'm not looking for fruit just vine development. My other varieties Kay Grey, Elvira, and Valiant had very little damage from the frost. The frost occured after this years planting and those vines were pushing new leaves and suffered no damage at all. This has been a crazy spring weather wise. I'm still planning on at least 400 Marquettes for next year and will keep them on hills and high on slopes.


----------



## grapeman

Marquette is one of the more susceptible varieties to late frosts as they are one of the very first to push buds in the spring. They froze all over the country this year.


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## vinividivici

*Re-thinking the Trellis*

Question (especially for Grapeman):

My Marquettes are in second growth year and now I'm wondering if I should proceed with 4-Arm Kniffen or VSP? Rich, I believe you are using VSP for your Marquettes?

I've been training the lower cordons right now, and they have vertical shoots on them. If I change to VSP, should I train these verticals to the top wire?

Thanks,
Bob


----------



## grapeman

You can use catch wires (one wire on both sides of the post every 12 inches or so) to keep the shoots growing upright. I have the Marquettes on the 4 training systems. VSP works well, but is the lowest yielding out of the 4 systems. It is your call which you use. The second year is easy- wait until year 4 and on for real vigor to develop. VSP becomes a jungle...................


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> You can use catch wires (one wire on both sides of the post every 12 inches or so) to keep the shoots growing upright. I have the Marquettes on the 4 training systems. VSP works well, but is the lowest yielding out of the 4 systems. It is your call which you use. The second year is easy- wait until year 4 and on for real vigor to develop. VSP becomes a jungle...................



So, based on your info, I'll press on with the Kniffen system. Re the catch wires, are you saying to use a double, horizontal wire starting 12" above the lower wire so the shoots coming off the cordons are trained vertically?

Thanks once again, Rich.


----------



## grapeman

No that isn't what I mean. I mean you use those for VSP, not the 4 arm kniffen. You asked about VSP. For the 4 arm kniffen, let the shoots trail downward from the upper and the lower- that is why you can get a bit of shading.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> No that isn't what I mean. I mean you use those for VSP, not the 4 arm kniffen. You asked about VSP. For the 4 arm kniffen, let the shoots trail downward from the upper and the lower- that is why you can get a bit of shading.



Got it. Thanks!


----------



## Lucky_lefty

I just ordered 14 plants and I have no idea what trellis system to use. The vines wil be here wensday and I am preping the site saturday.


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## ibglowin

I would go with a Top Wire Cordon all the way. They do very well on that trellis system plus its cheaper and easier to set up!


----------



## vinividivici

Lucky_lefty said:


> I just ordered 14 plants and I have no idea what trellis system to use. The vines wil be here wensday and I am preping the site saturday.



Lucky,

No rush to put the trellis system in yet. I've got vines I planted last year and plan on putting the posts up and wire system later this year. You will be pruning your vines back severely after this first year of growth, so no trellis is needed at this time. 

I strongly recommend using growth tubes for the first year. Just remember to remove them at the end of the summer. I've had great results with them on all three varieties I've planted.

Good luck and post some pics.


Bob


----------



## grapeman

Ah Bob...... you do cut the vines back, but get ready for explosive growth. The main trunk shoot should be to the top wire by July 1, maybe sooner. Today I saw some vines in the new vineyard cut back to 6 feet high and the buds broke on those vines today. They are also as big around as a normal finger at the end where it was cut back. Oh, I didn't mention, those were Marquette planted last year from 6 inch long 2 button cuttings. Look for some updated pictures in a few weeks as we install the trellises there. I would say you will need your trellis by the end of June to mid July to even try to keep up with them.


----------



## ibglowin

Hmmmmm..... That didn't happen with my vines! LOL


----------



## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Hmmmmm..... That didn't happen with my vines! LOL


 Bub Mike, Bob is in NY!Things grow up quick here. You are getting there, it just takes a bit longer.


----------



## ibglowin

I have a couple that will reach the twc this year (hopefully). And this is with lots of TLC!


----------



## Lucky_lefty

thanks for the advice and what are these growth tubes you speak of?


----------



## vinividivici

Grapeman,

I also had the first year Marquettes and then the Frontenac and Corot Noir get over six feet tall in the first year. But I had them in grow tubes tied to six foot stakes. Then cut them back to the best three buds at the bottom of the trunk for the second year. That's what I was referring to.

Were you referring to second year vines that had bud break, Rich? I was just suggesting what Lucky could do for the first year.

I'll defer to your judgement on this one, though.

Bob


----------



## vinividivici

[/IMG]


Lucky_lefty said:


> thanks for the advice and what are these growth tubes you speak of?



They are plastic tubes that cover the first year vines to protect them from wind burn, varmints, etc. The ones I used from Double A vineyard supplies were blue. They filter the sunlight to capture the rays that will encourage growth, usually accelerating it from my own personal experience.

Mine came with flat, blue sheets that you rolled up and inserted in a plastic sleeve. As it's now double-walled, you slip a bamboo or other kind of thin stake in between. I also found it was easier watering the vines as I aimed the hose down inside the tube. 

It also gives them vertical support, too. The growth was so vigorous that I had a hard time removing them, afraid I would damage the vine. But then I realized it would be pruned back anyway and was able to take them off fairly quickly.

I reused them for another couple of rows last year (Malbec and Corot Noir). 

I think I've seen another color tube out there, too. Can't remember what it is, though.

Here's what they looked like:


----------



## Lucky_lefty

so 18 inch tubes are good? I ordered the vines from double A and they ship on monday.


----------



## vinividivici

Lucky_lefty said:


> so 18 inch tubes are good? I ordered the vines from double A and they ship on monday.



Not sure where you saw the 18" reference? All of Double A's growth tubes are 30" tall and 3.5" in diameter according to their web site. 

The ones in the picture I posted are 30" tubes. The 1 1/2 rows to the left are new Frontenac I put in last year, and the remaining 1 1/2 rows are Corot Noir.

Bob


----------



## Trieste

Hey everyone, year 2 here in Mystic. I'm planning the trellis and had a few questions about Rich's modified GDC. A couple years ago you had linked to some info, but that link seems to be dead, unfortunately. Do you have a summary of the system posted somewhere? 

How tall are your end posts? What row spacing did you use? I think I recall you saying your cordon wire was 6'6". Is that correct? 

I put in another 50 vines this spring. Gonna be a great year!


----------



## Trieste

Here's the latest pic.


----------



## grapeman

Trieste said:


> Hey everyone, year 2 here in Mystic. I'm planning the trellis and had a few questions about Rich's modified GDC. A couple years ago you had linked to some info, but that link seems to be dead, unfortunately. Do you have a summary of the system posted somewhere?
> 
> How tall are your end posts? What row spacing did you use? I think I recall you saying your cordon wire was 6'6". Is that correct?
> 
> I put in another 50 vines this spring. Gonna be a great year!


 
Any information I posted on the sysems was purposely sketchy because I am just developing this system and it only exists in my one trial vineyard atr this point. All links I had to any system should still be active. 

The Modified GDC is simply a normal GDC tipped at an angle. There are two fruiting wires- one at about 6'6" and the other one at about 5'. The angle bar sits at about 45-60 degrees and has a brace bar welded to it. I have posted many pictures of it in my threads- the latest has to do with pruning for different training systems. The angled bar is about 32 inches long, but these brackets are custom made so you can adopt your brackets to the space you have.


----------



## vinividivici

*Looks Like Marquette Grape Clusters!*

These are my third year vines and looks like a lot of clusters forming. We have a freeze warning tonight (down to ~ 32 or so). Will these survive?


----------



## vinividivici

*Thinning Out Clusters?*

What is the general rule for thinning out Marquette clusters? 

I tried to insert the above text in the previous message after the image but couldn't get it into the text box.


----------



## grapeman

Wain and see if they freeze at all. If not you should thin to 1 cluster per shoot for year three and keep 2 per cluster for year four(unless the vine is small).


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> Wain and see if they freeze at all. If not you should thin to 1 cluster per shoot for year three and keep 2 per cluster for year four(unless the vine is small).



I lost some leaves due to a frost about three weeks ago. If these little clusters freeze, do they wither and die? So some could be a loss and some others survive?

Thanks, Rich. Hope all's well up north. I heard that Whiteface Mtn got 18" of snow last night! 

Bob


----------



## grapeman

Check out the picture I posted from Memorial Higway going up Whiteface (Fine Memorial Day Weekend).


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> Check out the picture I posted from Memorial Higway going up Whiteface (Fine Memorial Day Weekend).



Not sure where to check it out...


----------



## grapeman

I posted it in this link http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f19/fine-memorial-day-weekend-38527/ that's why I put that in parenthesis.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> I posted it in this link http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f19/fine-memorial-day-weekend-38527/ that's why I put that in parenthesis.



Got it. Looks like a January scene! I misread your post, thought you were saying it was a fine memorial day weekend. Thanks.

Bob


----------



## HillPeople

Here's a picture of my Marquettes coming out of their blue tubes last year. First year vines taken Aug 7th, 2012. I removed the tubes a week later to let them harden off.


----------



## vinividivici

HillPeople said:


> Here's a picture of my Marquettes coming out of their blue tubes last year. First year vines taken Aug 7th, 2012. I removed the tubes a week later to let them harden off.



Looking great. Simply radiant!


Bob


----------



## vinividivici

*First Harvest of My Marquettes This Year - Bird Netting?*

I've read and heard of too many tales of birds eating an entire crop of grapes and would like to avoid that.

I looked at Double A's bird woven nets and might buy them. Perhaps Grapeman or other upstate NY growers can comment on whether it's worth it or not. The netting will be for my 32 Marquette vines as they are in the third year and have loads of clusters forming. I cropped down to one cluster per shoot last weekend.

If the netting is recommended, how do you install it manually? The netting width is 17 feet, so do you simply drape it over the top of the vines with half of the netting on each side? Also, do you tie the netting underneath to prevent birds from entering there?

Thanks,
Bob


----------



## GreginND

Yes, the nets are typically draped over the vines and then secured underneath. Those birds definitely will get in underneath if they can. It is easiest to install if you have a tractor with a boom that raises the net over the top of the vines and a couple of people on either side to help spread it out over the vines as you move down the row. 

If I remember correctly, Grapeman had a picture posted once of a homemade netting boom in operation. Unless I am mistaking him for someone else on here.


----------



## ibglowin

They make reusable clips to clip the bottom sides together. They were pretty pricey IIRC. My local hardware store had a small $0.99 section of stuff and I found they had packages of 50 small zip ties for a buck. They worked perfectly for my small amount of vines. When the season was over I just cut em off with a pair of dyke pliers. And yes if this is your first time to ripen grapes you will definitely need netting. Every bird in the county will be raiding your crop once the word gets out!


----------



## grapeman

Yes you want nets and yes I did post a machine I made to install it- total overkill for you. What will makke it easier is to take a 5 foot piece of 1.5 inch pvc pipe as a handle. Get a 4 inch x 2inch sewer sanitary T. Get an adapter or two to size the 1.5 inch to the 2 inch part of the T. When installing the net, string the net out keeping it tight and thread the net through the T and raise it up over the trellis and grapes. Tie the end of the net to the end post and walk down the row keeping the net above the grapes. It works easiest to get a person on either side of the row and just drape the net loosely over the vines. Then fasten the bottom with some kind of clips. It really goes quite quickly but you really need about 3 people to do it easily. Even kids can do it (10 years old or above). Make it a fun job and keep the grapes from the birds.


----------



## vinividivici

Thanks Greg and Mike. Special thanks to Rich for the "net installer" tool!

Any recommendations on specific nets? Tight weave?


Bob


----------



## bellmtbbq

My vines came late, but a half dozen going in the ground tomorrow. Three month old vines, and a couple already have tiny clusters. Wow! I might try to get a crop next year.


----------



## GreginND

bellmtbbq said:


> My vines came late, but a half dozen going in the ground tomorrow. Three month old vines, and a couple already have tiny clusters. Wow! I might try to get a crop next year.



That would not be recommended. You need your vines to develop a good root system on year one and develop a good trunk and maybe cordons in year two. If you let it fruit the vine will not be as strong as it needs to be for the future.


----------



## vinividivici

bellmtbbq said:


> My vines came late, but a half dozen going in the ground tomorrow. Three month old vines, and a couple already have tiny clusters. Wow! I might try to get a crop next year.



As much as it hurts to prune off the little clusters, Greg is correct. Mine are now three years old and I spent two hours pruning off all the clusters (and they were loaded!) except one on each shoot. Good luck!
Bob


----------



## bellmtbbq

Yea, I absolutely understand removing them this year. I was just curious whether I could push a small crop out of them next year, depending on their condition and vigor. We'll see how much the trunk/vine develops in diameter as the season progresses.


----------



## vinividivici

*Loads of Clusters - Please Comment on Health Status*

I'm sure some of them are no good, but overall evaluation of this first harvest (3rd year) would be most appreciated.

Also, some recs on the netting. I'm tempted to go with Double A, but would also like to know your recs based on experience.

Cheers,
Bob


----------



## grapeman

Wow, that looks really bad there. Those clusters are covered with what looks like phomopsis (all the brown spots and blisters both on the grapes and leaves). It looks like all the rain washed off your spraying efforts- if any. If you didn't spray, you need to next year. I wouldn't expect to get a lot if they all look like that. Sorry for the bad news.................


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> Wow, that looks really bad there. Those clusters are covered with what looks like phomopsis (all the brown spots and blisters both on the grapes and leaves). It looks like all the rain washed off your spraying efforts- if any. If you didn't spray, you need to next year. I wouldn't expect to get a lot if they all look like that. Sorry for the bad news.................



I thought it might be bad, but I appreciate your diagnosis. All part of the learning experience.  

Is it worth cutting the clusters that have it, or should I assume that all the vines have the fungus present, whether showing it or not? Could I spray it now for the clusters that don't appear infected?

We were out in Oregon for the last two weeks while our area had rain almost every day. 

Bob


----------



## grapeman

If not too many clusgters, remove them and make sure to use a fungicide for it. You may save some if the vines aren't too bad.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> If not too many clusgters, remove them and make sure to use a fungicide for it. You may save some if the vines aren't too bad.



I went row by row last evening and I estimate about 20% of the clusters aren't affected - yet. Regardless of that, should the entire vineyard be sprayed to save the vines? I read that the infected parts should be pruned and burned, but it didn't say if that's done in the Fall, Winter or early Spring.

So much for trying to go organic...


----------



## grapeman

You can still try organic but make sure the fungicide you choose will control your diseases - Powdery mildew, downy mildew, black rot and phomopsis and possibly anthracnose. Prune in the spring and remove shoots with blisters on them and burn if you can. Begin fungicide sprays early to try to keep the diseases at bay.


----------



## vinividivici

grapeman said:


> You can still try organic but make sure the fungicide you choose will control your diseases - Powdery mildew, downy mildew, black rot and phomopsis and possibly anthracnose. Prune in the spring and remove shoots with blisters on them and burn if you can. Begin fungicide sprays early to try to keep the diseases at bay.



Thanks, Rich. Exactly the info I need at this point.
I hope things are going well for you.

Bob


----------



## NorthSlopeVineyard

Hello to the thread,

I just wanted to add my $.02. I planted 32 bareroot Marquette in Billings, MT this spring. Vines are at around 3600', 6 feet apart, 6' rows. Soil is a compacted sandy loam, pH about 7.4. I installed a drip irrigation system and am watering about 5 gal/plant/week. Our weather is quite hot and dry in the summer (85-100 in the day, 60 at night). Winter minimum can hit -25. 

Trellis is a two-wire, and I will arrange as a TWC. Wires are set at about 47" and 66" nominally. 

Based on this thread and other reading, I'm expecting a small crop in 2015 and a fuller crop in 2016.

Thanks to everyone for your contribution and especially to grapeman.


----------



## vinividivici

NorthSlopeVineyard said:


> Hello to the thread,
> 
> I just wanted to add my $.02. I planted 32 bareroot Marquette in Billings, MT this spring. Vines are at around 3600', 6 feet apart, 6' rows. Soil is a compacted sandy loam, pH about 7.4. I installed a drip irrigation system and am watering about 5 gal/plant/week. Our weather is quite hot and dry in the summer (85-100 in the day, 60 at night). Winter minimum can hit -25.
> 
> Trellis is a two-wire, and I will arrange as a TWC. Wires are set at about 47" and 66" nominally.
> 
> Based on this thread and other reading, I'm expecting a small crop in 2015 and a fuller crop in 2016.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for your contribution and especially to grapeman.



North, welcome to the thread and forum. Sounds like you are very well prepared! Good luck and post updates for us.

Bob

PS: we went through your area last week on Amtrak's Empire Builder. Managed to see Glacier Mtn during the daylight this time. Stunning.


----------



## chrisvt

With the arrival of warmer temperatures in Vermont I'm bumping this thread to the top. We planted 180 vines last spring, primarily Marquette with a some St. Croix, Reliance and Vanessa. 50 Petite Pearl vines will be going in this spring. I've found this thread (and forum) extremely helpful as I prepare for our 2nd season. I have a few lingering questions:

1.) re: backpack sprayers - I'm looking at the Hudson SP0 and the Solo 475 deluxe. The primary difference between the two is the psi - the Hudson can generate 150psi while the Solo is limited to 60psi. Does this psi difference matter for spraying grape vines?

2.) We'll be pruning our vines back to 3 or 4 buds which will leave us with a relatively small plant and it seems wasteful to use a backpack sprayer, at least until the plants gain some size. Should my initial sprays be with a smaller device or will the backpack sprayer be ok?


----------



## grapeman

1) Either spayer will do the job, the 150 PSI will penetrate a thick canopy better as the vines age. The thing is you don't want them to get so thick that the spraty won't penetrate with the 60PSI.
2) Just set the nozzle to give a nice fine spray and move along briskly. It will work fine even when small.


----------



## HillPeople

Speaking of spraying, what is the spray of choice among you growers for black rot and the mildews?


----------



## chrisvt

grapeman said:


> 1) Either spayer will do the job, the 150 PSI will penetrate a thick canopy better as the vines age. The thing is you don't want them to get so thick that the spraty won't penetrate with the 60PSI.
> 2) Just set the nozzle to give a nice fine spray and move along briskly. It will work fine even when small.



Thanks! Hoping for less rain than last year.


----------



## grapeman

HillPeople said:


> Speaking of spraying, what is the spray of choice among you growers for black rot and the mildews?


 
Unfortunately it takes a couple different sprays for control of all of them. The two mildews need two different sprays. I use Manzate (Mancozeb) and Rally for early season control. Consult the spray routine recommended for your state.


----------



## NorthSlopeVineyard

A little help here:
Some of my Marquette's didn't make it to the top wire last year. I've cut them down to 3 buds.
Others were at or above my top wire. The buds swole and I intended to grow cordons, however the growth is all coming from the bottom and middle buds, the top are doing nothing almost like the top of the vine is dead. Will the top start growing or should I cut the whole thing down? Can I retrain the cane from a strong shoot in the center of last years growth and cut the top off?


----------



## grapeman

It was a very cold winter most places this year. The more vigorous vines that got to the top last year probably did not harden off at the top enough to have those buds survive. You can cut back to the middle like you say and it will leave a slight crook- nothing major. You could also trim them back to near the base, but that might make them too vigorous and lead to bull canes. Oh the decisions............. Regardles of which way you do it, they will likely do just fine this year. Best of luck!


----------



## HillPeople

I have a similar problem with my Louise.
Most of the first year growth up to the first wire didn't survive the winter and so I pruned back to about 8" above ground this spring.
I now have 5-6 healthy shoots coming from the base.
My inclination is to remove all but two of the best, but perhaps the vine will establish better if it has more unruly foliage producing energy.
What would you do Rich?


----------



## grapeman

Take it down to a couple shoots and let them grow trunks this year.


----------



## chrisvt

Help! Due to a miscommunication, we applied double the recommended dose of Serenade fungicide to our marquette grapes(8oz per gallon instead of 4oz). My father read the label correctly as 4oz per gallon, I thought he said 4oz per half gallon and mixed incorrectly. We've applied other pesticides to other plants in the past and have have no excuse other than simply screwing up. I feel like an idiot.

Are our plants doomed? Our vines were planted last spring and pruned back to a few buds this spring so we're not talking huge canopies here.


----------



## grapeman

Serenade is a pretty gentle fungicide so no harm should come to the vines, especially with all the rain we have had again this year.


----------



## chrisvt

grapeman said:


> Serenade is a pretty gentle fungicide so no harm should come to the vines, especially with all the rain we have had again this year.



Thanks, Rich, you've put my mind at ease. 

Aside from this the vines look great. We pruned back to 2 or 3 buds in early May and re-installed the grow tubes(they helped last season with some late frosts). The Marquettes have really taken off and as of yesterday many were already at/near the tops of the 30" tubes. Looks like we lost a few of the Reliance and Vanessa to the cold winter, but they were marginal for our area(Zone 5A) so not a surprise.


----------



## grapeman

The Reliance look the best of the zone 5 seedless on this side of the lake. Most of the rest look almost dead.


----------



## exarkun

I also have some Marquette vines that are in their 3rd year. This year I pruned them to double trunks to the top wire (6.5 feet). So far, the buds have only broken to 1 foot off the ground and there are a few suckers poking up. Should I trim down to the top most buds that are breaking, or will the top ones eventually break? 

Thanks.


----------



## grapeman

It seems like if they were going to break, they would have by now. They may have frozen on you. You caqn either wait a while longer to see, or cut them back now. That would give them plenty of time to grow and later harden off.


----------



## LittleBearGameFarm

Great Thread Guys and Great Info!

I am in the infancy stages of thinking about maybe getting some grapes in the ground. I have been sampling various local wines in West Central WI and have really liked some Marechal Foch wines and the La Crescent has been good. I am yet to find a straight Marquette but the blends I have had, have been good. 

Question I have is regarding row orientation and the Mod. GDC. My slope mostly goes from NE to SW. Am I correct in thinking the purpose behind the Mod GDC is to get the back curtain up into the sunlight more? If I ran an east-west row orientation, that would get the back row up above the shade of the front curtain?

Also, the area I am looking at converting to a vineyard is the same area that I have raised several thousand pheasant for the last few years. I haven't done any soil samples yet, but I am hoping this area would work. Thoughts?

Thanks!


----------



## grapeman

You are correct about the Mod GDC. That was the exact reason for the one side being higher than the other and so far it is working well for me. It should work fine for your orientation.
The area may be a bit fertile after the pheasants being in it pooping for years now. 
Best of luck in you planning stages and eventual planting.


----------



## chrisvt

Does anyone have advice on when I should be thinning the vertical shoots on my vines? 

We planted bare root vines last spring and pruned back to 2 or 3 buds per plant in early May of this year. We've since seen explosive growth, with several vines nearing the 6' wire on our trellis. Many have 3 or more vertical shoots. I know I'm supposed to thin these to one or two vertical shoots per vine, but I can't find any information about when that should occur. Now? Later in the summer? I've found a lot of information about shoot thinning on established vineyards but hardly anything on new/2nd year plants.


----------



## GreginND

Assuming the vines are healthy and the extra shoots are not sapping vigor from them, I would be tempted to let them all grow this year and select the best one or two for your trunks when you prune next spring. That's what I was thinking with my vines.

But, Grapeman should be able to provide you with better advice than me. I'd listen to what he has to say.


----------



## grapeman

I agree with Greg. Let them grow for now. Select the best one or two next year for trunks. The extra growth this year will help feed root reserves for continued good growth next year.


----------



## chrisvt

Ok, thanks for the advice. Should I attempt to train anything this year or should I just keep them tied up and let them grow? A few are nearing the point where they'll be taller than the top wire.


----------



## grapeman

You can keep them tied up and growing straight (bamboo helps). If you want to experiment a bit when some get above the wire and are pencil size at that point, cut the shoot just below the wire. That will force some laterals to grow. You may get enough growth to begin forming cordons at that point for next year. If they don't form good candidates to use, then just prune it back off at that point again next year and try to form them again with the added vigor of another year.


----------



## chrisvt

Thanks very much for the advice and for all your input on this thread; it's been an invaluable resource. We have stakes on each plant, so I'll continue to keep everything growing upright.


----------



## LittleBearGameFarm

Another question for you guys...

I think the best place I have for grapes is a west facing slope. Has anyone tried a variable height trellis system. I was thinking of having groups of 4 rows. The eastern-most row at 4', the next row at 5', then 6', and then 7'. This would minimize the shade in the early morning so all rows would be about the same height. I was also thinking of using the modified GDC. Waste of time doing this approach or beneficial?

Thanks!


----------



## NorthSlopeVineyard

Here's a little Marquette advice I've picked up this year.

Several books and forums mentioned using a balanced (10-10-10) fertilizer in spring, especially if growing on infertile soil (which I am).

The growth is totally out of control. I do not plan on ever fertilizing again. Both the foliage and the fruit production are about double last year, and I dropped about a quarter of the fruit pre-bloom, and will probably have to drop more.

I'm growing marquette on a 10 degree south slope in Montana.


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## semenn

I'm still experimenting with the marquette. I have different trainings of TWC, VSP and MWC systems. Which training system can better protect against spring frosts? In the photo there are two bushes of the marquette with the TWC(top wire cordon) training system.


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## semenn

My marquette today one of the bushes


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## semenn

My marquette yesterday. Clusters completely colored start to ripen.


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## ibglowin

Where are these vines located?



semenn said:


> My marquette yesterday. Clusters completely colored start to ripen.


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## semenn

ibglowin said:


> Where are these vines located?



Kursk, Russia.


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## Masbustelo

How many hectares do you have planted? How old are your vines? Is there already a wine industry in the area , or are you the first?


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## semenn

While this is an experimental vineyard of about 100 bushes of grapes. I'm about 50 years old. And I plan in case of a successful experiment to plant several hectares of vineyard in our region, I'm not the first viticulturist, but probably the first who wants to plant an industrial vineyard for making wine.


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## Masbustelo

Are you only growing Marquette or do you have other varieties as well?


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## FrontenacMan

Hi Grapeman, 
I think you said that you have been replacing your Frontenac with Marquette as it is a better wine grape (less acidity). I'd like to do the same but wonder how it's done. Do you just pull out the Frontenac vine and then put in a Marquette in its place? I've only got 4 Frontenac vines (and 4 Frontenac Gris). They are 4 years old now. They are definitely vigorous and cold hardy. It looks like Marquette hold up to the cold pretty well according to what I've seen on the University of Minnesota website. The cold weather strength is why I originally planted Frontenac. I'm in Wisconsin.


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## semenn

Masbustelo said:


> Are you only growing Marquette or do you have other varieties as well?


Yes, I grow different varieties and try to find the most suitable for our region and the weather, especially so that you can grow grapes in a non-sheltered culture.
Today measured sugar Marquette showed 19-22 Brix


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## semenn

FrontenacMan said:


> Hi Grapeman,
> I think you said that you have been replacing your Frontenac with Marquette as it is a better wine grape (less acidity). I'd like to do the same but wonder how it's done. Do you just pull out the Frontenac vine and then put in a Marquette in its place? I've only got 4 Frontenac vines (and 4 Frontenac Gris). .


Why do you need a replacement? Maybe the best option is just to land and Marquette! Of all these varieties, you can get quite a decent wine. The only thing I did so it increased the number of vines well until at least six.


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## FrontenacMan

Well that would be an option but I don't have much room to add more vines. If I did it would be East/West and in a shady spot (trees in the way) which would not be ideal. My vines now (8 of them) are North/South and do very well as far as sunlight. The other option I have explored was to source some Marquette grapes (or another variety like Valiant) from local growers and combine with the Frontenac to reduce the acidity. But as Grapeman has said Frontenac are tricky in wine making even if you can get the acid levels under control.


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## FrontenacMan

I will say that your Marquettes are much more "tame" than my Frontenac. They look very nice. My Frontenac grow very vigorously. I've pruned them two or three times this season (and that's after the initial pruning in early March) and they are still going strong. I had much fruit early in the season but lost much to mildew. I don't spray any fungicide. I had no problem last year but this year we have had an excessive amount of rain.


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## Masbustelo

I helped pick some Frontenac last year and they went through the rows with chain saws so you could get in to the grapes.


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## Siwash

I want to grow marquette but I do not want to set a the typical grape wine trellis system. Is there an alternative whereby I can set up more of a pergola to grow them and still achieve some decent yield? I only want to plant about 4 to 6 vines. 

Are they deep rooted? 

Thanks for any help!


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## semenn

Marquette has a high growth force and will grow well on the pergola. Seedling is planted at a standard depth of about 1 - 1.5 feet.


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## Siwash

Thank you!'

My yard is north facing. Should i make a pergola that runs length wise in a north-south direction or east to west? Where should the vines be planted along the pergola? How far apart? and Lastly, how tall should the pergola be constructed?

What kind of yield can I expect from 6 vines?

Thank you


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## BigH

Siwash said:


> What kind of yield can I expect from 6 vines?



Figure 12 lbs per vine or so for a total of 72 lbs. Might be less depending on your training system. One general rule of thumb is that it takes 100 lbs of grapes to make 5 gallons of wine. Last year, I had 4.25 gallons of wine after crushing and pressing 70 lbs of Marquette. That would be about 21 750 ml bottles. 

H


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## Siwash

BigH said:


> Figure 12 lbs per vine or so for a total of 72 lbs. Might be less depending on your training system. One general rule of thumb is that it takes 100 lbs of grapes to make 5 gallons of wine. Last year, I had 4.25 gallons of wine after crushing and pressing 70 lbs of Marquette. That would be about 21 750 ml bottles.
> 
> H



Sounds about right... i think i get roughly 2.3 gallons (9 L/lug) of finished wine per lug.


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## TonyR

What are you going to use the pergola for? I think that is a Much more important question. How many people will you have using it? I have a pergola, put it in about 15 years ago. Used 4x4's and 2x6's. 10 footers i think. All from Home Depot.


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## TonyR

*Pics*

Here are a few pics


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## ibglowin

Looks like Wysteria?



TonyR said:


> Here are a few pics


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## TonyR

No trumpet vines. 2 yellow 1 red


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## Siwash

Geez for a second I thought those were Marquette vines!


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## treesaver

Siwash said:


> Geez for a second I thought those were Marquette vines!


I bet he wishes they were too! Those trumpet vines can get annoying with their growth habits!


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## vinividivici

I'm leaving the forum as I've lost interest in growing the Marquettes or any other vines. Also stopped making wine. Thanks to all who've made suggestions, etc. This site is a fantastic resource and I'll point people in this direction if they ask about wine making. Take care. Bob


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## grapeman

Sorry to see you give up Bob. Please check in from time to time.


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## Michael Antle

Planted my 5 vines last weekend. Theyve been in my cool basement in a bucket of water for about 5 weeks and all but one has 12-18" of growth on it. There were 2 buds on it but I think they must have gotten knocked off the last few weeks when my wife/kids moved them in and outside to harden them off (I've been away for work). I know itll be ok in the long run, but will it rebud this year? Will the roots grow this season or will in be a year behind?


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## ASR

I had a merqutte vine that I thought was dead. I had some UV tubes so placed one around the vine I thought I lost. It did begin regrgowing. If you place such a tube around the vine it may regrow at a faster rate than just waiting for nature to run its course. I got mine through the mail from Double A VIneyards https://doubleavineyards.com/vine-grow-tubes


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## dkbecker

ASR said:


> I had a merqutte vine that I thought was dead. I had some UV tubes so placed one around the vine I thought I lost. It did begin regrgowing. If you place such a tube around the vine it may regrow at a faster rate than just waiting for nature to run its course. I got mine through the mail from Double A VIneyards https://doubleavineyards.com/vine-grow-tubes



I pulled out all my Marquette because they were to difficult to grow organically and replaced them with Petite Pearl. I think Petite Pearl Is the best cold climate wine grape available. http://www.petitepearlplus.com/petite-pearl.html


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## sremick

dkbecker said:


> I pulled out all my Marquette because they were to difficult to grow organically and replaced them with Petite Pearl. I think Petite Pearl Is the best cold climate wine grape available.


Well, I planted both this year so I guess I'll see how they compare.


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## GreginND

I love Petite Pearl. But it, along with Crimson Pearl had a lot of die back last winter up around these parts. It seems that Verona survived better than all the others.


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## montanarick

Have Marquette, Petite Pearl, F. Blanc, F. Gris and Frontenac up here in Montana's Flathead Valley and all survived last year's winter. They did however look pretty sad this spring so had my fingers crossed but all did well and are now full of clusters


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## LittleBearGameFarm

130, four and five year old vines including Marquette, Petite Pearl, Sabrevois, Foch, Prairie Star, Petite Ami, and Frontenac Blanc, 45 minutes east of Minneapolis. Frontenac Blanc was the only one to leaf out this year. Seems to be a common theme in this area. I'm actually surprised the Blanc seems to have made it through on multiple vineyards. It would have been an easier decision if everything had died back. Not sure if I have the ambition to start from the ground again. It was interesting while it lasted.


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## ibglowin

For you guys up north who had severe dieback. Did you have a really cold winter or something bazaar to cause this?

I am down way south in NM but at 6500ft EL and Marquette seems to be turning a corner on me now that it has slowly (like 10 years now) gotten established. I have volcanic/thin/low organic soil so I have to water pretty heavily and add nutrients during the hot summer months but on the flip side I have basically zero disease pressure.


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## montanarick

LittleBearGameFarm said:


> 130, four and five year old vines including Marquette, Petite Pearl, Sabrevois, Foch, Prairie Star, Petite Ami, and Frontenac Blanc, 45 minutes east of Minneapolis. Frontenac Blanc was the only one to leaf out this year. Seems to be a common theme in this area. I'm actually surprised the Blanc seems to have made it through on multiple vineyards. It would have been an easier decision if everything had died back. Not sure if I have the ambition to start from the ground again. It was interesting while it lasted.


Wow - sorry to hear that. What caused the demise of your vines?


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## Masbustelo

Minnesota had extended periods of minus 40 degrees actual temperatures. For those reading this in months or years to come, note that Verona seemed to be unphased by the low temperatures. I think the potential catch with Verona is how far North it will ripen properly. I like it horticulturally much better that Petite Pearl. The bunches are larger, it seems to have a more orderly growth habit.


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## montanarick

Masbustelo said:


> Minnesota had extended periods of minus 40 degrees actual temperatures. For those reading this in months or years to come, note that Verona seemed to be unphased by the low temperatures. I think the potential catch with Verona is how far North it will ripen properly. I like it horticulturally much better that Petite Pearl. The bunches are larger, it seems to have a more orderly growth habit.


Yep - guess that will do it. We had some lengthy 20-30 below in February and thought my vines would bite the dust but they all survived quite well


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## GreginND

If I recall, we had two notable temperature extremes - one in November with bitter cold and another later in the winter. Having deep freezes at the beginning and end of winter is particularly problematic because cold hardiness develops over months. The vines are not cold hardy down to -30 temps at the beginning of winter. They reach that slowly and then, as the winter warms up, their low temp hardiness limit tends to rise. They reach their maximum hardiness in January, typically. 

Here's an article about grape hardiness:

https://grapesandwine.cals.cornell....ssue-5/how-grapevine-buds-gain-and-lose-cold/


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## GreginND

FYI - there was also a recent article about cold winter damage masking trunk diseases.

https://fruitgrowersnews.com/articl...5-WyyiueaCVjlcKTgE3AmrA0Y1CEdAkeN6XD-r5B2FiN0


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## sremick

When I was contemplating what varieties to plant, one of the places I visited was Shelburne Vineyard. Ethan there had the following to say about Verona:

_"As for Verona, it isn't my personal preference...susceptible to Phomopsis, large leaves, big berries, thin skinned that may be prone to cracking/splitting, late to ripen."_


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## GreginND

sremick said:


> When I was contemplating what varieties to plant, one of the places I visited was Shelburne Vineyard. Ethan there had the following to say about Verona:
> 
> _"As for Verona, it isn't my personal preference...susceptible to Phomopsis, large leaves, big berries, thin skinned that may be prone to cracking/splitting, late to ripen."_



But, if it actually produces fruit, isn't that a plus?


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## Masbustelo

Regarding the following quote associated with Shelburne Vineyard. _As for Verona, it isn't my personal preference...susceptible to Phomopsis, large leaves, big berries, thin skinned that may be prone to cracking/splitting, late to ripen." I visited the Shelburne Vineyard website and noted that they do not grow Verona. I haven't heard or seen these criticisms elsewhere. This is the first year that there will be a general harvest of the Verona, so I would take this criticism attributed to an employee named Ethan with a grain of salt. I have seen no disease appear in my vines whatsoever, with two seasons of high rainfall. Late to ripen, as a problem, has to do with ones latitude, so it wouldn't be a problem for many. I state these defenses on behalf of the breeders who have spent years bring this new variety to the marketplace. Were Shelburne Vineyards producers of Verona, any comments attributed to them would be much more noteworthy. _


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## spaniel

Marquette has made the best red wine I can grow in Indiana. Unfortunately last year we were on vacation when the Japanese beetles hit and they completely defoliated the vines in under a week. They never really recovered, and then in the winter we got a weekend with 2 consecutive -13F nights. I have no cover or protection for my vineyard. I had to cut them all back to the ground and 6 of 30 are trying to come back. I will replant them next year.

I am truly intrigued by Petite Pearl from what I read here. I was going to expand past my current 16 Oberlin Noir as that wine is pretty good as well but I can't find the stock anymore. My Marachel Foch got decimated as well and after a decade of not making a truly decent wine with that I think I'll replace with Petite Pearl and give that a go.

As an aside, it is REALLY depressing to go into a 100 vine vineyard you have slaved over for 13 years with a chainsaw and cut 80 of them to the ground....


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## GreginND

I feel your pain. After seven years, I've never harvested a single grape from 350 vines.


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## sremick

GreginND said:


> I feel your pain. After seven years, I've never harvested a single grape from 350 vines.





WHAT???? Holy crap. As someone who just planted, that's terrifying. What's the story?


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## GreginND

sremick said:


> WHAT???? Holy crap. As someone who just planted, that's terrifying. What's the story?



I'm not completely sure. It may be the heavy clay subsoil in this area or salinity. But the vines in the lower spots actually seem to grow better than the higher spots, so pooling of salts doesn't make sense. They never got established well and have pretty much died down to the ground every year, even in the mild winters.


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## montanarick

Marquette's are pretty hardy grapes. my take on this is that the heavy clay soil is probably the culprit. where does salinity come from? Have you had the soil tested?


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## Dusan

When this variation start bud break and flowers?


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## wood1954

Dusan said:


> When this variation start bud break and flowers?


Depends on your climate


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## montanarick

Yep - agree with wood1954. Average daily temps over 50 degrees will start the budding process


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## Dusan

So in zone 6 that will be first part of April and flowering will be then in first part of May?


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## Desert Wine

Retrain or not retrain?
I wish I had found this forum and thread when I planted in 2017. I have 42 Marquette vines and originally used three wire VSP. But after reading this thread and viewing how Rich, grapeman, has had great success with TWC and Mod GDC, is it possible to retrain my vines?
I have until next month to decide.
Here are a few current pictures-


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## BigH

Desert Wine said:


> is it possible to retrain my vines?



I moved two varieties from VSP up to TWC. I converted over the course of a few seasons, and usually converted half the vine first. Half way through, a lot of vines were VSP in one direction on the low wire, and TWC from the high wire in the other direction. I used the top catch wire for my TWC fruiting wire. Ultimately, this is about the only thing I don't like about the conversion. I would like to do some cleanup on that top wire someday.

I never removed the middle catch wires. These varieties are semi-upright, which is why I had them on VSP in the first place. The old catch wires help train the vine down in the summer. I tuck a few shoots behind the catch wires to hold them down.

I wouldn't bother converting if you are getting good yield, good chemistry and can manage the vigor adequately on VSP . My primary driver for converting was spring deer pressure, and the fact that my VSP was not controlling vigor adequately. I really needed 12-18 more inches of vertical space.

H


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## montanarick

FYI - I went the other way from TWC to VSP for my Marquettes and Frontenacs. So vigorous they spill way over lanes between rows on TWC making it like a jungle tunnel. For the hobbyist, I think that VSP works so much better. Good luck


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## Desert Wine

Thanks montanarick. This gives me something else to consider.

Thanks BigH. Thankfully we mainly get deer in our front yard. So far I have been able to control the vigor and my yields have been increasing every year.


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## Dwerth

Desert Wine said:


> Thanks montanarick. This gives me something else to consider.
> 
> Thanks BigH. Thankfully we mainly get deer in our front yard. So far I have been able to control the vigor and my yields have been increasing every year.


What sort of yields are you obtaining Desert Wine?


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## Desert Wine

Dwerth said:


> What sort of yields are you obtaining Desert Wine?



I've only been harvesting for three years-
2017- planted
2018- vine development
2019- 61 lbs. only allowed 50% of grapes to remain being third year of growth
2020- 20 lbs. had a hard freeze in June, wiped out 2/3 of my grapes
2021- 181 lbs. best year so far
2022- ?? looking forward to see how the vines do this year


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## wood1954

I’ve averaged 7 lbs per plant, but a couple plants produced 20 lbs each. I’m a lousy farmer, the plants could do much better. I’m pruning this year to try for 10 lbs per plant.


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## Dwerth

Desert Wine said:


> I've only been harvesting for three years-
> 2017- planted
> 2018- vine development
> 2019- 61 lbs. only allowed 50% of grapes to remain being third year of growth
> 2020- 20 lbs. had a hard freeze in June, wiped out 2/3 of my grapes
> 2021- 181 lbs. best year so far
> 2022- ?? looking forward to see how the vines do this year


Thank you for the info. In 2021 were you pruning to reduce yields, or just letting them go?


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## Desert Wine

Dwerth said:


> Thank you for the info. In 2021 were you pruning to reduce yields, or just letting them go?


Yes, definitely pruning to control yield and the vigorous growth of the Marquette vine. 
But I've had very inconsistent yield vine to vine. Some producing over 8 lbs., others 1-2 lbs. My soil is poor, clay, and I live in a high desert region with lot's of wind. Used a post hole drill to go at least three feet deep to improve drainage and added some organic material to try to reduce compaction when I planted.


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## Desert Wine

wood1954 said:


> I’ve averaged 7 lbs per plant, but a couple plants produced 20 lbs each. I’m a lousy farmer, the plants could do much better. I’m pruning this year to try for 10 lbs per plant.


Would love to get 10 lbs. average. 
How long have your vines been growing? 
Do you have decent soil?


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## Vern

I prune mine to 40 buds per plant and drop most 3rd bunches and harvest 15 pounds average. This year I will try to drop a few more and shoot for 12 pounds Ave. Hopefully no late spring frost damage this year.


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## Desert Wine

Curious what kind of yeast everyone has been using with their Marquette grapes?


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## ibglowin

Lalvin 71B-1122 Dry Wine Yeast | MoreWine


71B is a very fast starting strain that produces round, smooth, more aromatic wines that mature quickly. Great for blush and residual sugar white wines....




morewinemaking.com









Desert Wine said:


> Curious what kind of yeast everyone has been using with their Marquette grapes?


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## BigH

Desert Wine said:


> Curious what kind of yeast everyone has been using with their Marquette grapes?



For me, it depends on where the harvest pH lands. I use 71B if pH is below 3.1, and refer to the Scotts lab chart for hybrid varieties if pH is above that. I have split some batches half and half.

H


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## BigH

BigH said:


> For me, it depends on where the harvest pH lands. I use 71B if pH is below 3.1, and refer to the Scotts lab chart for hybrid varieties if pH is above that. I have split some batches half and half.



Guess I should say why I do this. If my pH is low, I use 71B to metabolize some of the malic acid to bring the pH up. The intent is to ensure a successful MLF after primary fermentation. A MLF can fail if the bacteria are stressed by a low pH environment. I like to have the pH around 3.2 or higher before I start the MLF. All that jazz about fruity notes is secondary to me.

My must TA for Marquette is typically around 12, with 3-4 of that coming from malic acid.

H


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## Desert Wine

BigH said:


> Guess I should say why I do this. If my pH is low, I use 71B to metabolize some of the malic acid to bring the pH up. The intent is to ensure a successful MLF after primary fermentation. A MLF can fail if the bacteria are stressed by a low pH environment. I like to have the pH around 3.2 or higher before I start the MLF. All that jazz about fruity notes is secondary to me.
> 
> My must TA for Marquette is typically around 12, with 3-4 of that coming from malic acid.
> 
> H



Thanks for the advice BigH, it's appreciated.


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## wood1954

Desert Wine said:


> Would love to get 10 lbs. average.
> How long have your vines been growing?
> Do you have decent soil?


I have very sandy deep soil, some sandy loamy soil on top. Some vines are 5 and some are 6 years. They are very vigorous. My first plantings were 30 miles east of where I am now and the soil was wet red clay, 8 years later they are still growing really well, Marquette seems to grow anywhere.


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