# Winexpert LE18 thoughts?



## kyle5434 (Aug 29, 2018)

It looks like of the 3 red kits, only one of them comes with skins (the Barbaresco). I wonder why they continue to NOT include skins in these pricier "premium" releases....

https://labelpeelers.com/wine-kits/


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## pillswoj (Aug 29, 2018)

I don't think I will be doing any of them this time around, the ones without skins are too expensive for what you get and the Barbaresco does not interest me. Hopefully the CC Passports have something good coming.


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## kyle5434 (Aug 29, 2018)

I'd probably be interested in the Corazón if there were skins.


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## DriftlessDoc (Aug 30, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> I don't think I will be doing any of them this time around, the ones without skins are too expensive for what you get and the Barbaresco does not interest me. Hopefully the CC Passports have something good coming.



*Agreed. I'm not really moved by any of these. Saw something for new Passports on a canadian instagram account. What US distributor carries them?*




kyle5434 said:


> I'd probably be interested in the Corazón if there were skins.



*Agreed. If it had skins, I'd probably bite.*


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## kyle5434 (Aug 30, 2018)

DriftlessDoc said:


> *Agreed. I'm not really moved by any of these. Saw something for new Passports on a canadian instagram account. What US distributor carries them?*




https://www.finevinewines.com/Z_ProdListLR_2019.asp


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## ras2018 (Aug 30, 2018)

Winexpert appears to be the only brand you can get for less than $150 shipped. Shame prices are so high this year. Vineco has a super Tuscan with a retail of 185.99! (167 with discount). Ouch.


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## jbrown (Aug 30, 2018)

I'll be doing the Barbaresco and that is all. Really disappointed to see an LE Lodi Cab without skins, I don't understand.


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## pillswoj (Aug 30, 2018)

kyle5434 said:


> https://www.finevinewines.com/Z_ProdListLR_2019.asp


And even in the Passports, the Merlot / Cab Franc is most interesting BUT no skin pack, the Super Tuscan has Skins but I have an RJS EP Super Tuscan in primary right now......


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## Jon Hunwick (Aug 30, 2018)

Skin fanatics will have to wait for the Eclipse release mid-2019. I for one am estatic about the Corazon, and I'm always game for a Gamay-Cab blend


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## rustbucket (Aug 30, 2018)

The Fumé Blanc sounds interesting to me. I was thinking about making an Eclipse New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc this winter but I'm wondering if the Fumé Blanc will be similar. It looks like these are special release kits have 16 liters whereas the Eclipse kit has 18 liters of juice.


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## CK55 (Aug 30, 2018)

Jon Hunwick said:


> Skin fanatics will have to wait for the Eclipse release mid-2019. I for one am estatic about the Corazon, and I'm always game for a Gamay-Cab blend


Gamay and cab hmm thats a different blend lol. Seeing as how cab can last 20 years. But Gamay only has a bottle life of max of 1 year.


jbrown said:


> I'll be doing the Barbaresco and that is all. Really disappointed to see an LE Lodi Cab without skins, I don't understand.


Nice nice, but you could buy Nebbiolo grapes somewhere. I've got Nebbiolo vines.


pillswoj said:


> And even in the Passports, the Merlot / Cab Franc is most interesting BUT no skin pack, the Super Tuscan has Skins but I have an RJS EP Super Tuscan in primary right now......


Merlot/cab is a excellent blend. And quite traditional. But yeah I'm not happy about lack of skins.


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## DriftlessDoc (Aug 30, 2018)

rustbucket said:


> The Fumé Blanc sounds interesting to me. I was thinking about making an Eclipse New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc this winter but I'm wondering if the Fumé Blanc will be similar. It looks like these are special release kits have 16 liters whereas the Eclipse kit has 18 liters of juice.



One of our local wineries makes a Fume Blanc. It's really good, mellow, off dry.


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## tjgaul (Aug 30, 2018)

I would agree that it would be nice to see skin packs in all the red kits, but I really don't think the pricing is too bad. All 3 red kits offer interesting grape combinations and come from (fairly) renowned areas. After you get past the manufacturers advertised price, LP is selling the non-skin kits for $95 - that's an 18L kit. I'm not sure I will fit one of these into my lineup this year, but I'll bet I'm perusing the supplier web sites this winter looking for leftovers. 

The idea of a Cab-Gamay blend sounds really interesting to me and the Chilean combo looks pretty good too.


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## Cibb (Aug 30, 2018)

Both of the whites look appealing. Who am I kidding if I could I'd buy all of them but I will say I am disappointed in only one kit with skins.


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## codeman (Aug 31, 2018)

I will almost certainly make a large batch of the Symphony Gewurztraminer but I’m a huge sucker for Gewurtz, infact it’s the reason I planted 4 acres of vines.


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## GaDawg (Sep 1, 2018)

Anyone looked at the RJS Restricted Quantities?


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## Brian55 (Sep 1, 2018)

GaDawg said:


> Anyone looked at the RJS Restricted Quantities?


Yep, they look good, just a bit on the pricey side. There's a thread started on them: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/the-chase-begins-2019-rq.66205/


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## KRAM (Sep 3, 2018)

I'd like to pick up one or two LE18 kits but I'm not exactly sure which to pick.. We typically like dry and light or non-oaked wines.
I'm not a pro at understanding the styles of each of the wines yet. 

So I was thinking of picking up the Barbaresco w/ skins and the Fumé Blanc.

Thoughts?


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## rustbucket (Sep 3, 2018)

Those are excellent choices. I'm planning on buying the Fumé Blanc this year as well. If I were to order two LE18 selections, I think that my second choice would be the Black Cab. This selection is based on a personal preference for Cabernet wines and Cabernet blends. I also like Chateauneuf-du-Pape type wines and currently have the Winexpert Nocturnal wine aging.


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## joeswine (Sep 4, 2018)

You know people grape skins aren't all there supposed to be.
Dehydrated or juice pac,you y still can't be sure what it is or how effective they'll be on the base.
There are good things to do with making a high end kit straight up with s teeek.or buying your own grape pac and applying it ( m&m ) makes them just a thought.
And as the kits get hire and hire doesn't make sense to see how to take a moderately priced kit and play with it?


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## DriftlessDoc (Sep 5, 2018)

1. If I spend > 120 bucks on a red kit I want skins.
2. Ingredients in the kit have been tested many times over vs me just winging it with something I concocted in my kitchen. I dont want 30 bottles of frankenhooch.
3. I did buy a grape pack from M&M (3 of them actually, I have two left) and the LE17 NZ Merlot I added them to is turning out really, REALLY good. But again, with shipping included, that's an additional 30 dollar expense. The kits that actually do include skins usually arent much more than the ones they're selling without.
4. If consumers do not voice their opinions in regards to a product they're disappointed in, the manufacturer won't know they're not taking care of their customers, and they'll continue to try to control costs as time goes on, and if they don't know how much you (the consumer who is interested in the high end kits), you will have fewer and fewer kits with skins to choose from.


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## GaDawg (Sep 6, 2018)

I don't understand. The Fumé Blanc doesn't come with oak, how can you have a Fumé Blanc without oak. Doesn't that make it a Sauvignon *Blanc?*


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## GaDawg (Sep 6, 2018)

GaDawg said:


> I don't understand. The Fumé Blanc doesn't come with oak, how can you have a Fumé Blanc without oak. Doesn't that make it a Sauvignon *Blanc?*



My wife said it’s a Faux Fumé Blanc...lol


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## Brian55 (Sep 6, 2018)

GaDawg said:


> My wife said it’s a Faux Fumé Blanc...lol





GaDawg said:


> I don't understand. The Fumé Blanc doesn't come with oak, how can you have a Fumé Blanc without oak. Doesn't that make it a Sauvignon *Blanc?*


Where do you get the idea that it doesn't come with oak?


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## GaDawg (Sep 7, 2018)

From the winemakers toy store View attachment 50849


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## cmason1957 (Sep 7, 2018)

I found these words out on the web. 

"Fumé" literally translates to "smoke," but this has nothing to do with a "smoky" flavor in the wine, although that is a popular notion. It instead refers to the morning fog that covers the Loire Valley and is "as thick as smoke." Any smoke-like smells or flavors in Sauvignon Blanc are from aging in toasted oak barrels and are definitely not due to any aroma or flavor character inherent in this grape variety. Although some wineries may choose oak barrel fermentation, oak aging, or both, the use of "Fumé Blanc" on a label does not require that the wine be barrel-fermented or ever contact any oak whatsoever. Fumé Blanc is simply an approved synonym for Sauvignon Blanc.


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## Brian55 (Sep 7, 2018)

GaDawg said:


> From the winemakers toy store View attachment 50849


They're consistently wrong about many of the details on their site. They have the LE's listed as 16L kits, which is incorrect. Label Peelers has the Fume listed as Dry | Med. Body | Light Oak | 13% ABV
The Winexpert website has the oak rated on the Fume as a 1 out of 3. The Gewurtz is listed as a zero, the Corazon and Cab. as a 2, and the Barbaresco as a 3.


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## GaDawg (Sep 7, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I found these words out on the web.
> 
> "Fumé" literally translates to "smoke," but this has nothing to do with a "smoky" flavor in the wine, although that is a popular notion. It instead refers to the morning fog that covers the Loire Valley and is "as thick as smoke." Any smoke-like smells or flavors in Sauvignon Blanc are from aging in toasted oak barrels and are definitely not due to any aroma or flavor character inherent in this grape variety. Although some wineries may choose oak barrel fermentation, oak aging, or both, the use of "Fumé Blanc" on a label does not require that the wine be barrel-fermented or ever contact any oak whatsoever. Fumé Blanc is simply an approved synonym for Sauvignon Blanc.


One of my favorite stories in the marketing world of wine is that of Fume Blanc. In the late 1960s, Sauvignon Blanc suffered a negative reputation. It was too sweet, or too grassy, poorly made, hard to pronounce, and generally avoided by many wine drinkers. About this time, the late, great Robert Mondavi had an opportunity to produce some promising Sauvignon Blanc. Though he knew it would be delicious, he also wanted to sell it, and labeling it as Sauvignon Blanc may not do the trick. Taking a cue from the Sauvignon Blanc-saturated region of Pouilly Fume in France, Mondavi labeled his wine Fume Blanc and used that name for his SB, which was dry-fermented and aged in oak barrels.

Since you’ve most likely seen a bottle of Fume Blanc, you probably know that this marketing decision paid off and easily accounts for Sauvignon Blanc’s popularity today. Mondavi did not trademark the term, so other wineries jumped on the bandwagon, crafting Sauvignon Blanc in the same style and using the Fume Blanc term. These days, Sauvignon Blanc enjoys a stellar reputation and is proudly displayed on labels in California. But many, particularly those established wineries with a few decades under their belt, still use the Fume Blanc moniker for their Sauvignon Blanc. What’s the difference? Though there are plenty of exceptions (as there always are), Fume Blanc typically sees a bit of oak and displays rounder, richer, more melon-like flavors. Sauvignon Blanc aims to bring out the grassy and sharper citrus aromatics of the varietal.


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## Jon Hunwick (Sep 14, 2018)

KRAM said:


> I'd like to pick up one or two LE18 kits but I'm not exactly sure which to pick.. We typically like dry and light or non-oaked wines.
> I'm not a pro at understanding the styles of each of the wines yet.
> 
> So I was thinking of picking up the Barbaresco w/ skins and the Fumé Blanc.
> ...



Barbaresco is notably not a very light wine, though not certainly as big as Barolo. It is also quite heavy with oak, at least in this winexpert version. You could take the oak out to create a lighter wine overall, or even ditch the skins. 

I'd garner the Black Cab would feel drier than the other two wines this year, as Corazón will be quite rustic and fruity with the Carmenere and the Pais in the blend.


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## ras2018 (Jan 28, 2019)

Anyone else doing the Fumé blanc? I just wrapped primary on mine. Swapped out EC1118 for QA23. Smells fantastic.


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## Brian55 (Jan 28, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> Anyone else doing the Fumé blanc? I just wrapped primary on mine. Swapped out EC1118 for QA23. Smells fantastic.


Yep, it's sitting in line waiting for the fermenter.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Jan 28, 2019)

I got the Fume Blanc sitting at 3 weeks today, Clearing nicely. True 'Fume' comes from terroir (flint), not oak, though real Fume Blanc has that too. We'll see how it turns out. Glad to see others doing it too.

Edited

*Etymology[edit]*
Pouilly-Fumé is made purely from sauvignon blanc, a type of vine whose clusters are formed of small ovoid grapes, pressed against each other and resembling small bird eggs. At maturity, these grapes are coated with a grey bloom, the color of smoke — which explains why Pouilly winegrowers talk of "white smoke" to describe the type of vine or the wines made from it. “Fumé” also refers to the smoky bouquet (the renowned "gun flint aroma"), bestowed by the terroir vineyards of Pouilly-sur-Loire.

*History[edit]*
*Antiquity[edit]*
The vineyards of Pouilly-Fumé date back to the fifth century. The area was a Gallo-Roman estate dating back to the early days of the Roman Empire.[3] The name derives from the Latin _Pauliacum super fluvium ligerim_(Pauliacum on the River Loire), reflecting the Roman road which passed through this locaility.[4]

*Middle Ages[edit]*
Benedictine monks commenced development of Pouilly-Fumé in the Middle Ages. Sacramental wine is traditionally white, less prone to staining, and the Benedictines developed the vineyards without seeking profitability. The fiefdom and vineyards of Pouilly were transferred to the Benedictines of La Charité-sur-Loire for the sum of "3100 sous and a silver mark" towards the end of the eleventh century. A plot of about 4 hectares (9.9 acres) overlooking the River Loire has retained the appellation _Loge aux Moines_ (Monks’ Lodge), in memory of that era. The repurchase of Boisgibault lands in 1383 by Jean III de Sancerre demonstrates the proximity that has always existed between this vineyard and that of Sancerre, and their respective white wine production.

From Wikipedia. 

I'm aware of the Mondavi story, but this is the first 'Fume'.


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## Michael P Harrington (Feb 7, 2019)

joeswine said:


> You know people grape skins aren't all there supposed to be.
> Dehydrated or juice pac,you y still can't be sure what it is or how effective they'll be on the base.
> There are good things to do with making a high end kit straight up with s teeek.or buying your own grape pac and applying it ( m&m ) makes them just a thought.
> And as the kits get hire and hire doesn't make sense to see how to take a moderately priced kit and play with it?


Joe I got the Corozon kit yesterday and was wondering if you would add anything to it or just follow directions being it is a rather expensive kit, curious if I should add anything or just go with it


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## Cibb (Feb 11, 2019)

Michael P Harrington said:


> Joe I got the Corozon kit yesterday and was wondering if you would add anything to it or just follow directions being it is a rather expensive kit, curious if I should add anything or just go with it


I'm sticking with the instructions personally.


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## Cibb (Feb 18, 2019)

Just put my Corozon in the primary. The only change I made was a different yeast as mine came with 1118. I used rc212 instead as I had some remaining.


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## geek (Mar 3, 2019)

Anyone doing the Symphony Gewurztraminer?


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## Brian55 (Mar 3, 2019)

geek said:


> Anyone doing the Symphony Gewurztraminer?


Yep.


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## geek (Mar 3, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> Yep.



Did you get it yet? Wonder what yeast it comes with, liters of juice (supposedly 18L) and size of f-pack.


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## Brian55 (Mar 3, 2019)

I haven't received it yet.


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## jbo_c (Mar 4, 2019)

I’d be interested in both the Barbaresco and the ‘Black Cab, but I can get the Spagnols kits for so much less than I can get WE that I probably won’t. - though I’d be tempted if I could get them locally.

Jbo


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## Cibb (Mar 7, 2019)

geek said:


> Anyone doing the Symphony Gewurztraminer?


I wanted to but we are moving this year so I didn't get one.


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## Brian55 (Mar 31, 2019)

Has anyone received their Gewurztraminer yet?


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## Brian55 (Mar 31, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> Has anyone received their Gewurztraminer yet?


 Did anyone besides me order it?


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## robert81650 (Mar 31, 2019)

Your right, this thread is way too high bred for me and my taste....................


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## Brian55 (Mar 31, 2019)

robert81650 said:


> Your right, this thread is way too high bred for me and my taste....................


Whuh?


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## geek (Mar 31, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> Has anyone received their Gewurztraminer yet?



Did you get yours? If so, details about sweetener and yeast?
I also wonder if these WE are now indeed 18L as they claim.


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## Brian55 (Mar 31, 2019)

geek said:


> Did you get yours? If so, details about sweetener and yeast?
> I also wonder if these WE are now indeed 18L as they claim.


Nope, that's why I was asking if anyone else had received theirs.
The reds with skins are false advertised at 18L when in reality they are 16L. The whites and reds without skins are 18L.


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## ras2018 (Jun 17, 2019)

Finally got around to starting the Barbaresco today. SG was barely hitting 1.08. I was kinda surprised by that. I did bump it up to 1.09 with some simple syrup. Also, the grape pack to me seemed larger in this kit. Anyone else started this one and think the grape pack kit was larger than typical Eclipse packs?


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## Wayne Freeman (Jun 18, 2019)

I started my Barbaresco a couple of days ago. I was also surprised that the starting SG was a scarce 1.08. The grape skins pack seemed larger to me, as well. I posed a question a few weeks ago about how much the grape skins pack might raise the starting SG, because it has to, doesn't it? Someone suggested that grape packs will raise the effective starting SG by about .015. So I estimate the starting SG of this to be about 1.095. YMMV.

Really looking forward to this one.


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## Wayne Freeman (Jun 18, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> Nope, that's why I was asking if anyone else had received theirs.
> The reds with skins are false advertised at 18L when in reality they are 16L. The whites and reds without skins are 18L.



Maybe it's 16L of juice and 2L of skins? Dump them in together, before adding water, and you've got 18L. Just a guess.


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## ras2018 (Jun 18, 2019)

Wayne Freeman said:


> I started my Barbaresco a couple of days ago. I was also surprised that the starting SG was a scarce 1.08. The grape skins pack seemed larger to me, as well. I posed a question a few weeks ago about how much the grape skins pack might raise the starting SG, because it has to, doesn't it? Someone suggested that grape packs will raise the effective starting SG by about .015. So I estimate the starting SG of this to be about 1.095. YMMV.
> 
> Really looking forward to this one.



Yes plenty of sugar in those skins to raise your SG. Although, I would say most of these higher end wines start you off closer to 1.10. 1.08 wouldn’t be bad for a white wine, but I want my reds higher than that. I recall a similar situation with the Bravado super Tuscan. It had a really low starting SG. I added simple syrup to that kit as well. Oh well, I’m sure this one will turn out great—especially with a larger skin pack.


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## Brian55 (Jun 18, 2019)

Wayne Freeman said:


> Maybe it's 16L of juice and 2L of skins? Dump them in together, before adding water, and you've got 18L. Just a guess.


Remove the skins after ferment, and you're back to about 16L if you don't count all the water you had to add.


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## sour_grapes (Jun 18, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> Remove the skins after ferment, and you're back to about 16L if you don't count all the water you had to add.



Why don't you count the volume that the added sugar contributes?


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## Cellar Vader (Jun 18, 2019)

I'm glad this issue was brought up, because I plan to start my LE18 Barbaresco after my Valroza is finished fermenting (started yesterday.) I'll be following this to see what all of you have to say. Curious, though, as to how much volume this grapeskin pack really comprises. I haven't even opened my box yet.


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## Brian55 (Jun 18, 2019)

Why doesn't MM advertise their 23L kits with skins as 25L kits? Simple, because there's only 23L of juice. Would you advertise a kit with 16L of juice, which included several cups of additional sugar in a bag as an 18L kit?


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## ras2018 (Jun 18, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> I'm glad this issue was brought up, because I plan to start my LE18 Barbaresco after my Valroza is finished fermenting (started yesterday.) I'll be following this to see what all of you have to say. Curious, though, as to how much volume this grapeskin pack really comprises. I haven't even opened my box yet.



I’m a little nervous to be honest. I will look again but I’ll bet I have about an inch (maybe a little more) of head space in my 7.9 fermenter. I am using BM 4x4 too and that can produce a ton of foam. I guess we’ll see. I have my fermenter in a keg bucket though so if it does spill over a bit no big deal.


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## DIYer (Jun 18, 2019)

This photo of the LE Barbaresco box says 18L... So if it's wrong, it's the manufacturer's error, not the retail sites selling the kits. Or do the boxes that have actually been received show only 16L on the label?

https://www.homebrewohio.com/winexpert-le18-barbarescor-wine-making-ingredient-kit/


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## Brian55 (Jun 18, 2019)

DIYer said:


> This photo of the LE Barbaresco box says 18L... So if it's wrong, it's the manufacturer's error, not the retail sites selling the kits. Or do the boxes that have actually been received show only 16L on the label?
> 
> https://www.homebrewohio.com/winexpert-le18-barbarescor-wine-making-ingredient-kit/


In the world of WE Eclipse and Limited Editions, the bag of juice in the kits with skins is only 16L. In the kits without skins the bag of juice is 18L. My issue is advertising those 16L kits with skins as 18L. It's not only misleading, it's lame on the part of the manufacturer, as they always charge more for a 16L kit with skins that they label as an 18L kit, than an actual 18L kit without skins.


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## DIYer (Jun 18, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> In the world of WE Eclipse and Limited Editions, the bag of juice in the kits with skins is only 16L. In the kits without skins the bag of juice is 18L. My issue is advertising those 16L kits with skins as 18L. It's not only misleading, it's lame on the part of the manufacturer, as they always charge more for a 16L kit with skins that they label as an 18L kit, than an actual 18L kit without skins.



Gotcha. I thought it had been stated earlier in the thread that the websites selling it were the ones labeling it incorrectly. It sounds to me like the total kit volume is 18L though (16L juice, 2L skins). Of course the juice only ones list the volume of the juice because that's all there is. And the ones with skins list the total of all the main contents (juice plus skins). That doesn't seem deceptive to me, but accurate. I assume the skins are more expensive to produce and package (and from the opinions I've seen here, produce a better wine) than just adding another 2L of juice, so pricing those kits with skins and the same amount of juice a bit more seems reasonable also. 

Obviously, opinions are going to vary though and no one is likely to convince the others of the opposite view.


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## Brian55 (Jun 18, 2019)

DIYer said:


> Gotcha. I thought it had been stated earlier in the thread that the websites selling it were the ones labeling it incorrectly. It sounds to me like the total kit volume is 18L though (16L juice, 2L skins). Of course the juice only ones list the volume of the juice because that's all there is. And the ones with skins list the total of all the main contents (juice plus skins). That doesn't seem deceptive to me, but accurate. I assume the skins are more expensive to produce and package (and from the opinions I've seen here, produce a better wine) than just adding another 2L of juice, so pricing those kits with skins and the same amount of juice a bit more seems reasonable also.
> 
> Obviously, opinions are going to vary though and no one is likely to convince the others of the opposite view.


Would you advertise a kit with 16L of juice, which included several cups of additional sugar in a bag as an 18L kit?


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## tjgaul (Jun 19, 2019)

I would agree with DIYer . . . . if they were counting an F-Pac as additional volume (a bag of sugar) I think that would be deceptive, but a skin pack is much more than that and actually adds volume, flavor and body to the fermentation. If you're at the level of production that you're into the upper end kits, then you likely know what you're getting. Given the choice, I would always go with the kit with skins and gladly pay the few extra dollars. 

I think one of the best bargains out there now are the WE World Vineyard kits which are 12L with skins (only 3 offered in this style) and are priced around $80. Great candidates to scale back to 5 gal and get a robust economical wine. I've made the GSM twice. First batch is 18 months old and down to 8 bottles left, second batch is close to a year old and still in the carboy.


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## DIYer (Jun 19, 2019)

tjgaul said:


> I would agree with DIYer . . . . if they were counting an F-Pac as additional volume (a bag of sugar) I think that would be deceptive, but a skin pack is much more than that and actually adds volume, flavor and body to the fermentation. If you're at the level of production that you're into the upper end kits, then you likely know what you're getting. Given the choice, I would always go with the kit with skins and gladly pay the few extra dollars.
> 
> I think one of the best bargains out there now are the WE World Vineyard kits which are 12L with skins (only 3 offered in this style) and are priced around $80. Great candidates to scale back to 5 gal and get a robust economical wine. I've made the GSM twice. First batch is 18 months old and down to 8 bottles left, second batch is close to a year old and still in the carboy.



Is "GSM" the Australian Grenache/Shiraz/Mourvedre? If so, I have that one standing by, right to start soon. It will be my second batch from a kit, and first red. I am looking forward to it!


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## tjgaul (Jun 19, 2019)

DIYer said:


> Is "GSM" the Australian Grenache/Shiraz/Mourvedre? If so, I have that one standing by, right to start soon. It will be my second batch from a kit, and first red. I am looking forward to it!



That's the kit. A couple years back I was buying Cline's Cashmere off the bargain rack which I thought was a Pinot Noir. The 3rd time I got one the guy at the liquor store pointed out that it was actually a GSM (I didn't even know what that meant). I bought this kit trying to replicate that taste. Not the same, but so darn good I bought the 2nd kit as soon as the first one was in the bottle. It's been a hit with most of my friends and family.


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## DIYer (Jun 19, 2019)

tjgaul said:


> That's the kit. A couple years back I was buying Cline's Cashmere off the bargain rack which I thought was a Pinot Noir. The 3rd time I got one the guy at the liquor store pointed out that it was actually a GSM (I didn't even know what that meant). I bought this kit trying to replicate that taste. Not the same, but so darn good I bought the 2nd kit as soon as the first one was in the bottle. It's been a hit with most of my friends and family.
> View attachment 55145



Thanks! I bought this one to have a red I can start drinking a bit sooner than the WE Whiskey Barrel Cab/Merlot that's on pre-order (should be shipping soon). That one I plan to age 12-18 months. The GSM I hope to start enjoying after about 6 (of course will save some to age longer for comparison). These are my first batches, so I wanted some I could drink relatively soon, while letting the better kit age.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Jun 19, 2019)

I have the Australian GSM at 6 months right now. Two things, I don't think this kit came with skins, and 2, at six months at least, I thought Vieux Chateau du Roi was better. Your taste of course may vary. And although the Vieux Chateau does not give a varietal breakdown, I have to imagine that it contains at least two of the three GSM.


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## Wayne Freeman (Jun 19, 2019)

On another note, I'm puzzled about the instructions for this Barbarasco kit. Step 1 is, of course, the primary fermentation but Step 2 is "Stablizing and Clearing". What about secondary fermentation? Do they really mean to eliminate the secondary? I've never seen this before.


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## ras2018 (Jun 19, 2019)

Wayne Freeman said:


> On another note, I'm puzzled about the instructions for this Barbarasco kit. Step 1 is, of course, the primary fermentation but Step 2 is "Stablizing and Clearing". What about secondary fermentation? Do they really mean to eliminate the secondary? I've never seen this before.



I honestly didn’t even read them, but I think Winexpert expects you to ferment 14 days on the skins and “skip” secondary. I’m going to do an extended maceration for 4 weeks on this one.


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## 1d10t (Jun 19, 2019)

Wayne Freeman said:


> On another note, I'm puzzled about the instructions for this Barbarasco kit. Step 1 is, of course, the primary fermentation but Step 2 is "Stablizing and Clearing". What about secondary fermentation? Do they really mean to eliminate the secondary? I've never seen this before.



"If choosing to carboy age wine, top-up with a similar style wine and fit with a solid stopper. Bottle aging is the preferred method."

They seem to dislike carboys.


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## Johnd (Jun 20, 2019)

It’s really not that big of a deal to finish fermentation in your original vessel, lots of folks here have been doing it that way for a long time.


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## cmason1957 (Jun 20, 2019)

I think it isn't so much carboys as it is the interference fit of the bung to the opening. That and an empty carboy is asking to be refilled. Someone posted this article on a Facebook page.
https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bot...medium=email&utm_term=Headspace+in+Winemaking


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## Wayne Freeman (Jun 20, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> I honestly didn’t even read them, but I think Winexpert expects you to ferment 14 days on the skins and “skip” secondary. I’m going to do an extended maceration for 4 weeks on this one.



Do you mean 4 weeks in addition to the two week primary fermentation or 4 weeks total?


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## 1d10t (Jun 20, 2019)

I've read the ingress of oxygen through the plastic air lock should not be overlooked. 

For the home winemaker, if you filter, after completing things like oak additions there might be little to gain from bulk aging and going to bottle probably makes sense. The article make it sound like the wineries skip the barrel aging and go straight to bottle though since it is the 'preferred method'.

"Beyond that, the best place to store wine for aging is inside wine bottles--that's where all the wineries put their vintages to age over time."

I guess it avoids all those expensive, pesky barrels?


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## tjgaul (Jun 20, 2019)

1d10t said:


> "Beyond that, the best place to store wine for aging is inside wine bottles--that's where all the wineries put their vintages to age over time."
> 
> I guess it avoids all those expensive, pesky barrels?



I found those observations to be a little suspect also. Even the full stainless white wine makers bulk age 6 months to a year in the vat. There must be some benefits to bulk aging beyond simply clearing the wine. If the carboy is topped up properly I have to believe that the combination of the surface area exposed to air and the potential inflow of air through the airlock (and around the bung) would still have to be much less than the total of all the headspace in 30 bottles of wine. 

I also noticed Tim V's statement regarding the blanketing effect of the CO2 given off during fermentation. The effectiveness of this protection from oxygen has been heavily debated throughout this forum. I won't debate Tim's prowess in the world of kit winemaking, but his advice is often aimed at the novice winemaker and does not promote individual expression in the wine crafting process.


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## ras2018 (Jun 20, 2019)

Wayne Freeman said:


> Do you mean 4 weeks in addition to the two week primary fermentation or 4 weeks total?



No. 4 weeks on the skins and then I will head straight to stabilization.


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## Cellar Vader (Jun 20, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> No. 4 weeks on the skins and then I will head straight to stabilization.


I will be conducting my first-ever extended maceration on my LE18 Barbaresco soon. I don't plan to apply any other tweaks...UNLESS you know of one that I MUST try? I'm all ears!


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## ras2018 (Jun 20, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> I will be conducting my first-ever extended maceration on my LE18 Barbaresco soon. I don't plan to apply any other tweaks...UNLESS you know of one that I MUST try? I'm all ears!



I’m making some minor tweaks. Swapping the RC-212 for BM 4x4. Extended maceration. I did add simple syrup to 1.09 sg. Other than that I will probably hit this with a little extra medium plus oak during its rest as well as a little TRE.


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## Cellar Vader (Jun 20, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> I’m making some minor tweaks. Swapping the RC-212 for BM 4x4. Extended maceration. I did add simple syrup to 1.09 sg. Other than that I will probably hit this with a little extra medium plus oak during its rest as well as a little TRE.


Yes, I’ve read that BM4x4 is the choice for Italian reds, but have had a tough time finding it in my area. Amazon?


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## ras2018 (Jun 20, 2019)

I always have a few on hand from Label Peelers


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## Johnd (Jun 21, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> Yes, I’ve read that BM4x4 is the choice for Italian reds, but have had a tough time finding it in my area. Amazon?



Depends upon the type of grapes on your “Italian” wine, you may find this useful in pairing the yeast and varietal, then you can find and order your yeast. Label peelers, MoreWine, Midwest, etc. carry many strains.

https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wyeastpair.pdf


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## Cellar Vader (Jun 21, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Depends upon the type of grapes on your “Italian” wine, you may find this useful in pairing the AST and varietal, then you can find and order your yeast. Label peelers, MoreWine, Midwest, etc. carry many strains.
> 
> https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wyeastpair.pdf


Thank you Johnd!


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## Cellar Vader (Jun 21, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> I always have a few on hand from Label Peelers


I had searched Label Peelers site before and didn't find it there. That's ok, though. This time around I'm just gonna "play it safe?" and stick with the supplied yeas (RC212.) Thx for your thoughts!


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## DIYer (Jun 21, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> I had searched Label Peelers site before and didn't find it there. That's ok, though. This time around I'm just gonna "play it safe?" and stick with the supplied yeas (RC212.) Thx for your thoughts!



FYI: https://labelpeelers.com/wine-making/wine-yeast/lalvin/bm-4x4-lalvin-wine-yeast/

It's under Wine Yeast > Lalvin.


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## ras2018 (Jun 21, 2019)

I don’t know what it is about BM 4x4, but it doesn’t seem readily available for a lot of folks. I have a local brew shop in my area and they have lots of yeast to choose from except no BM 4x4. I recall asking someone who worked there once and they looked at me like I was nuts when I mentioned it.


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## Cellar Vader (Jun 21, 2019)

DIYer said:


> FYI: https://labelpeelers.com/wine-making/wine-yeast/lalvin/bm-4x4-lalvin-wine-yeast/
> 
> It's under Wine Yeast > Lalvin.


Well dang! When you enter "BM4X4" in the search, it doesn't show up at all. Hmmmm.


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## cmason1957 (Jun 21, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> Well dang! When you enter "BM4X4" in the search, it doesn't show up at all. Hmmmm.



Oddly enough you have to search for "BM 4x4" or just "4x4" I always just go tot he Wine Yeast page and scroll a bit to find it.


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## Johnd (Jun 21, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> Well dang! When you enter "BM4X4" in the search, it doesn't show up at all. Hmmmm.



Try clicking this:

https://labelpeelers.com/wine-making/wine-yeast/lalvin/bm-4x4-lalvin-wine-yeast/


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## szap (Jun 22, 2019)

Thought I would throw in my experience with LE kits. I did the Barbaresco kit. After I emptied the bag into my ferment bucket and then add the grape skins, there was a water addition of a little over a gallon to bring it to the 6 gallon mark. Pretty much the same amount of water as an 18 liter kit. After 2 weeks I removed the grape skin bag and squeezed the liquid out of it and transfered the wine to a 6 gal carboy. I believe the liquid from the grape skin bag adds enough to bring the transfered wine to several inches below the neck. I then use a drill whip to degas. At the time of transfer sulfite and sorbate and a small amount of Kieselsol are added. The next day you add two packages of chitosan and the oak cubes supplied. On the Barbaresco kit I had to draw it down a little to get the two bags of oak cubes added. A kit with 18 liters and grape skins would never fit into a carboy. Should it be listed as 16 liters with x amount of grape skins? Probably so. But the 16 liters and the grape skins results in the approx the same level in the primary as an 18 liter kit would.


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## Bplewniak (Jun 22, 2019)

Do you fill up to the full 6 gallons before adding skins or with the skins in?


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## crushday (Jun 23, 2019)

Bplewniak said:


> Do you fill up to the full 6 gallons before adding skins or with the skins in?


The directions tell you.


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## Johnd (Jun 23, 2019)

Bplewniak said:


> Do you fill up to the full 6 gallons before adding skins or with the skins in?



Every one I’ve ever made that includes grape packs, was very specific to fill to the 6 gallon level before adding the skin pack. Haven’t done one in a year or so, doubt they’ve changed it.


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## ibglowin (Jun 23, 2019)




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## Lwrightjs (Jun 23, 2019)

ibglowin said:


>


Lol.. This was awkwardly placed at the top of a new page. But A for effort, right? [emoji23]


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## tjgaul (Jul 10, 2019)

Went on the LP web site this morning and they still had some leftover Winexpert LE 2018 kits. I could not resist. Nabbed the Corazon and the Gewurztraminer. The wife loves Gewurztraminer and the Corazon sounded interesting. Guess I will be keeping the fermenters busy for a while.


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## sremick (Jul 10, 2019)

Hmm, mixed thoughts on the Barbaresco. Can't decide if I should grab one.


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## DIYer (Jul 10, 2019)

tjgaul said:


> Went on the LP web site this morning and they still had some leftover Winexpert LE 2018 kits. I could not resist. Nabbed the Corazon and the Gewurztraminer. The wife loves Gewurztraminer and the Corazon sounded interesting. Guess I will be keeping the fermenters busy for a while.
> 
> 
> View attachment 55444


You may have gotten the last Corazon one--it's unavailable now. I hemmed and hawed, but gave in and bought the Symphony Gewurztraminer kit. They have it marked down to $106 (plus shipping). My rationale is that it will be a good kit to compare with the cheaper Vintner's Reserve kit I did so I can see if it's worth it (to me) to buy the more expensive kits in the future.


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## crushday (Jul 23, 2019)

I bulk aged my Fume’ Blanc today. Started 6/1/2019. It has a surprising Carmel color... Bottle next summer.


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## tjgaul (Jul 24, 2019)

George Burgin said:


> I bulk aged my Fume’ Blanc today. Started 6/1/2019. It has a surprising Carmel color... Bottle next summer.



Wow, that is surprisingly amber, but I like it. Hope the flavor is as good as the color.


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2019)

George, that seems really dark for a Sauvignon Blanc wine. Do you have the date code for the kit? I have contacted a very helpful person from time to time at WinExpert named Gail Tufford. Her email address is: [email protected]. You might want to ask for her input.


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## Swedeman (Jul 24, 2019)

Rocky said:


> a very helpful person from time to time at WinExpert named Gail Tufford


She is really helpful!

BTW Rocky, the kit can't be old, it's a LE18. My kit was produced in December 2018


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## crushday (Jul 24, 2019)

Rocky said:


> George, that seems really dark for a Sauvignon Blanc wine. Do you have the date code for the kit? I have contacted a very helpful person from time to time at WinExpert named Gail Tufford. Her email address is: [email protected]. You might want to ask for her input.


Rocky, thanks for Gail’s contact info. To be clear on this kit, it is the Fume Blanc and had toasted oak chips added during primary. Apparently, it’s a stylistic version of Sauv Blanc and is supposed to be this color. The kit is from the LE18 series from Winexpert.


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## ras2018 (Jul 24, 2019)

I am sure you are correct and the color is from the extra time on those oak chips. I fermented mine for maybe 2 weeks and it’s golden yellow.


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## crushday (Jul 24, 2019)

ras2018 said:


> I am sure you are correct and the color is from the extra time on those oak chips. I fermented mine for maybe 2 weeks and it’s golden yellow.


Can you post a pic?


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2019)

George, I was not aware of the oak chips in the Fume Blanc. That would be consistent with the history that Fume Blanc was created by Robert Mondavi who oaked Sauvignon Blanc and called it Fume (smoky) Blanc. My understanding is that it was more a marketing strategy to take advantage of the popularity of Sauvignon Blanc and people who like a little oak. 

I like oaky whites (I think I was a squirrel in a prior life) so your wine should be spectacular.


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## Brettanomyces (Aug 4, 2019)

I started a Barbaresco and a Corazón within the last couple weeks. So far, so good. 

The Corazón doesn't come with skins or oak cubes, which is a little odd, but the juice smelled amazing when mixing it. It's also kicking up a lot of solids at the top, almost like a cap. I'm guessing the juice contains more solids than most to account for the lack of skins. Could be wrong, but that's the way it seems.

The Barbaresco started putting out some sulfur odors today (about day 4), so I added a bit of nutrient and stirred like crazy. I'm hoping that keeps it away. Time will tell.


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## Trevor7 (Aug 4, 2019)

I did my Fumé Blanc, pretty well following the instructions. I suck at record-keeping, so not sure if the kit included oak or not. I'd attribute George's amber color to the wine being exposed to oak for that period of time.
Mine's also a golden yellow.


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## Brettanomyces (Aug 4, 2019)

Trevor7 said:


> I did my Fume Black, pretty well following the instructions. I suck at record-keeping, so not sure if the kit included oak or not. I'd attribute George's amber color to the wine being exposed to oak for that period of time.
> Mine's also a golden yellow.
> View attachment 55802



Looks pretty light for a Fumé Black, buddy.


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## Trevor7 (Aug 5, 2019)

Brettanomyces said:


> Looks pretty light for a Fumé Black, buddy.


That'll teach my to type sober...


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## Swedeman (Aug 5, 2019)

Trevor7 said:


> That'll teach my to type sober...


But it was funny! Very light for something BLACK ;-)


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## joeswine (Aug 5, 2019)

here's how mine turned out.....


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## crushday (Aug 8, 2019)

I can’t wait to taste mine. Just as an FYI, I won’t bottle until next May/June 2020! However, @trever7’s wine is looking really great!


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## motherofgallons (Aug 26, 2019)

I'm doing the Barbaresco with EM. It was my first kit and I mostly followed the directions to a T when putting it together. I'm sort of regretting pitching both the 212 and 1118 simultaneously as the directions said though. If I did it again I'd only pitch the 212 or even a BM 4x4 and save the 1118 as a last resort if it didn't go to dry. I do plan on skipping the sorbate and finings (I also wish I had left out the bentonite, I'm afraid it will strip flavor over the 8 week EM).

I'm still pretty new to winemaking and as I said this was my first kit though I've done a number of country wines and meads with TOSNA. On about the third day I caught the beginnings of sulfur smells so I'm proud to say I got right on top of it with some Fermaid O and no more problems yet. I've been afraid to open the bucket in case of oxidation so I haven't taken an SG in a few weeks. I just slosh the bucket a bit to wet the skins from time to time. After 8 weeks I'll rack to a carboy and bulk age for about a year.

My next kits are a Luna Bianca (CY3079, sur lie, bâtonnage, bulk age 9-12 months) and a WE Eclipse Nebbiolo with skins (BM4x4, 8 week EM, 12 months bulk aging). I will apply what I learned from this kit to those ones and minimize my regrets (well, we will see in 2 years if I had cause for regret) hopefully. I also got a 7 gallon Fermonster so I thought I'd start using that for primary/EM instead of a bucket even though the lid seals airtight.


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## Cellar Vader (Aug 27, 2019)

@motherofgallons If you have not yet tasted your Barbaresco, and it sounds like you haven't, you should be amazed at what it is like right now. Mine is only on the 4th week (post-fermentation) of my "planned" 6-8 week EM and it is wonderful. Yes, still VERY young but indicates that we can expect a VERY good wine in 12 to 18 months. I removed my oak chips after ten days because it was REALLY oakey at that point, and I didn't want it overpowered.
Question to all: Regarding the Eclipse Nebbiolo, can anyone tell us the difference between this Barbaresco and the Eclipse?. They are BOTH made from the Nebbiolo grape, and both come with skins, so what gives?


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## Brettanomyces (Aug 27, 2019)

Wasn't the Eclipse Nebbiolo the one that used to be marketed as Barolo? Maybe it's still sourced from that region? Or blended to taste like it. Just a guess. I have no firm knowledge about this.


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## motherofgallons (Aug 27, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> @motherofgallons If you have not yet tasted your Barbaresco, and it sounds like you haven't, you should be amazed at what it is like right now. Mine is only on the 4th week (post-fermentation) of my "planned" 6-8 week EM and it is wonderful. Yes, still VERY young but indicates that we can expect a VERY good wine in 12 to 18 months. I removed my oak chips after ten days because it was REALLY oakey at that point, and I didn't want it overpowered.
> Question to all: Regarding the Eclipse Nebbiolo, can anyone tell us the difference between this Barbaresco and the Eclipse?. They are BOTH made from the Nebbiolo grape, and both come with skins, so what gives?


Well that's exciting to hear! Are my worries non-worries after all? Did you follow the directions as I did? Is it ok to open the bucket just for a taste real quick?

I think my Nebbiolo does say "formerly Barolo" on the box in fact.


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## Cellar Vader (Aug 27, 2019)

Ahhh, then that explains it. Thank you @Brettanomyces and @motherofgallons. Two different styles. Now I HAVE to get a batch of the ("formerly known as Barolo") going, just to compare.
I also pitched both of those yeasts at the same time (after serious contemplation of swapping out for BM4X4) and also had that sulpher/sewage odor after 2 days of fermenting. All I did was aerate mine two times (AM & PM) and that took care of it. I was actually expecting it, based on what I read here regarding the RC-212. Nipped in the bud! 
Edit: Sorry, I didn't address your other Q's. I say you should be ok, but I am still very much a newb. Others here can offer you excellent advice.


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## ras2018 (Aug 27, 2019)

I have made both wines and even from my initial taste of the barbaresco I believe it’s going to be far superior to the eclipse Nebbiolo.


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## motherofgallons (Aug 31, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> Ahhh, then that explains it. Thank you @Brettanomyces and @motherofgallons. Two different styles. Now I HAVE to get a batch of the ("formerly known as Barolo") going, just to compare.
> I also pitched both of those yeasts at the same time (after serious contemplation of swapping out for BM4X4) and also had that sulpher/sewage odor after 2 days of fermenting. All I did was aerate mine two times (AM & PM) and that took care of it. I was actually expecting it, based on what I read here regarding the RC-212. Nipped in the bud!
> Edit: Sorry, I didn't address your other Q's. I say you should be ok, but I am still very much a newb. Others here can offer you excellent advice.


@Cellar Vader I'm so sorry, I just double checked the boxes and it was in fact the Selection Sangiovese with skins that was formerly known as Brunello! I totally misremembered. I hope this doesn't upset your plans. There was no "formerly known as" on the Nebbiolo box.


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## Swedeman (Aug 31, 2019)

A quick search an the internet:

*Winexpert Eclipse Italian Nebbiolo with Grape Skins (Formerly Eclipse Italian Piedmont Barolo)*


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## motherofgallons (Aug 31, 2019)

Ok maybe I didn't misremember after all  strange it didn't say so on the box, maybe I saw it online.


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## motherofgallons (Aug 31, 2019)

By the way, I did taste my Barbaresco today. I'm 5 weeks into the planned 8 week EM. The skins were at the bottom. It smelled nice and the color is very dark and rich but I was kind of let down by the flavor. I thought it was watery and uninteresting. Not much body either. Is this normal? I made it up as directed, but I did add 100mL extra water to rinse out the stubborn skins pack. But that couldn't possibly have watered it down significantly. The OG was 1.098. What should I do? Is this something that will change with age and oak additions?


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## Brettanomyces (Aug 31, 2019)

In my very humble opinion, the only thing you should do now is finish your EM. It's way too early to be worried about anything other than a high FG.


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## motherofgallons (Aug 31, 2019)

Thanks... I do actually have a lot of patience but I can be a bit of a worried mother sometimes.


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## Cellar Vader (Sep 1, 2019)

motherofgallons said:


> @Cellar Vader I'm so sorry, I just double checked the boxes and it was in fact the Selection Sangiovese with skins that was formerly known as Brunello! I totally misremembered. I hope this doesn't upset your plans. There was no "formerly known as" on the Nebbiolo box.


Lol! Not a problem. I “misremember” all the time! I think.


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## Swedeman (Feb 2, 2020)

What are your thoughts on the Symphony Gewurztraminer? Can't decide if I should grab one.


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## joeswine (Feb 2, 2020)

*Why not* ,very tasty and crisp to the finish, *WHY NOT*? A delightful wine with a taste of apple ,spot on.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2020)

Swedeman said:


> What are your thoughts on the Symphony Gewurztraminer? Can't decide if I should grab one.



Wouldn't that kit be a little old now? I have a triple batch of the wine that I just bottled a few weeks ago. If you do get it, I suggest that you check the juice for oxidation and add fresh chemicals, i.e. yeast, potassium metabisulfie and potassium sorbate (if applicable).


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## joeswine (Feb 2, 2020)

not that old, but it could have been a second or third release. I have it so it's not that old.


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## Swedeman (Feb 2, 2020)

Rocky said:


> Wouldn't that kit be a little old now?


I assume, as it got available in March last year, that it's around 1 year old by now.


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## joeswine (Feb 2, 2020)

No big deal try using a red star yeast with this one and a touch of grapefruit zest , comes out just fine.


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## malfrune (Feb 3, 2020)

Swedeman said:


> I assume, as it got available in March last year, that it's around 1 year old by now.



Don't worry about the age as long as it was stored properly. I bought a LE15 Fortitude kit 3 weeks ago at a steep discount from the local brew shop that's going out of business. That's a LE15, so it came out early 2016, so it's been on the shelf for 4 years. 

Fermented fine with the yeast that came with it, in secondary now and snuck a taste when I was racking and it's fine. Was speaking with the owner before I bought it and he says anything that doesn't sell fast enough he just puts back for himself and has never had issues with 4-5 year old kits.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2020)

Swedeman said:


> What are your thoughts on the Symphony Gewurztraminer? Can't decide if I should grab one.



Swedeman, I did not say that you should not buy the kit but I stand by my recommendation to use fresh yeast, K-meta and K-sorbate. Firstly, you are making a white wine which is not as hardy as a red. Secondly, we are only talking about a buck's worth of yeast and chemicals. I think that is good insurance for 30 or so bottles of wine. Thirdly, checking for oxidation is good practice in any case. Look at the color of the juice for browning and take a whiff of it. I will allow, though, if you have already purchased the kit, an off odor or color should not dissuade you from proceeding as it is mostly sunk cost and a little labor. 

Lastly, beware of relying on anecdotal evidence. What worked one or two or ten times does not mean it will work again. You could walk through a minefield without injury but I would not recommend it as a practice. And we all know of somebody who "smoked two packs of cigarettes a day for 60 years and never got lung cancer," but the evidence of the connection between lung cancer and smoking is undeniable.


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