# Wine barrel lifetime costs



## JimHarris

How much does replacement cost play a role in your guys' decision making? If not what factors influence your barrel buying?

Here is an infographic that really brings lifetime ownership cost to light

Wine barrel costs: Oak vs Stainless Steel


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## Boatboy24

An oak barrel provides valuable microxidation and concentration - this smooths out and mellow a wine in a way that can't be replicated in SS or glass.


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## bkisel

Interesting post but...

IMHO, a totally slanted article from a Stainless Steel manufacturer even if factually true. Also, the article seems pointed towards commercial wine makers not hobbyists.

Personally I've not bothered with barrels because I started this hobby 4 years ago at 68 years of age. So for me the factor to date influencing my (non) barrel buying has simply been age not cost.


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## ibglowin

I think the biggest overlooked pieces of info that a newbie winemaker doesn't often realize is that once the barrel is neutral you don't have to throw it away. You just add oak in another form, staves, cubes, beans. As long as you take good care of the barrel, clean and sanitize it properly you can keep using it (almost ) indefinitely.

Its the micro-ox and the concentration though evaporation (that this highly slanted article) try's to paint as a liability of purchasing a barrel that in reality takes the wine to a whole other level and one that could NEVER be achieved by a SS VAT.


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## jburtner

And - Barrels make wine taste better - So I've read on the internets 

I'll be getting a barrel before I get a similar stainless - I do have quite a few glass carboys at this point...

Cheers!
-johann


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## Mismost

I don't know why, but barrels just hold zero interest to me. It's hard enough cleaning carboys, barrels have to be a real PITA. Cleaning was the one area I thought the article was really messed up on....five minutes to clean a barrel? 3 minutes to clean a SS? BS....takes longer than that just to get ready to start cleaning.

Sticking with my carboys, chips, sticks, and staves...saves me money, time, and space.


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## JohnT

Agree with all the above! 

- I disagree with the costs and there is no mention of volume. 

A 500 liter tank, I believe, costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,200-$1,300. A barrel (225) costs somewhere around $400.00 (or that is what the last two new 225's cost me). so 500 liters would be $888.00. This is exactly *opposite* from what is in that article. 

Yes, there is evaporation. That is the point!!! Evaporation equals a concentration of flavors. The author also avoids mentioning the beneficial micro-oxidation that occurs as well. 

I also disagree with the duration of use. You can use barrels well beyond 6 years. There are some wineries that have 100 year old barrels that are still in use. Although you might not get any wood flavor from the barrel, you do still get the very beneficial evaporation and micro oxidation. You can always go with an alternative form of oak (like mini-staves) if wood is what you need.

- It looks as though this was written by a company that is trying to sell you stainless steel. It is not written by someone that is trying to advise you on how to make better wine!


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## NorCal

I have barrels and flex tanks. There is something magic about the 60 gallon barrel. It has the right surface area to volume, the right amount of evaporation, the right amount of micro ox...it is the world standard, for a reason. My barrel was $350 + $40 delivery (may be tax too). Say three usages, 180 gallons = 900 bottles, 50 cents per bottle. More expensive than staves, spirals, but not bank busting either.


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## Johnd

Been in Napa for a week. Number of wineries producing excellent wine aged in stainless steel kegs instead of wood barrels----zero. Number producing excellent wine by aging in real wood barrels, mostly French---every one I've been to.


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## JimHarris

ibglowin said:


> I think the biggest overlooked pieces of info that a newbie winemaker doesn't often realize is that once the barrel is neutral you don't have to throw it away. You just add oak in another form, staves, cubes, beans. As long as you take good care of the barrel, clean and sanitize it properly you can keep using it (almost ) indefinitely.



That is a great point about neutral barrels


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## stickman

At least for commercial wineries, there was no consideration for the fact that the sale price for barrel aged wines is generally higher than for wines only aged in stainless; higher margins.


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## JimHarris

stickman said:


> At least for commercial wineries, there was no consideration for the fact that the sale price for barrel aged wines is generally higher than for wines only aged in stainless; higher margins.



I would be interested in if there really are higher margins. I know the wines sell for a lot more, but there are higher costs in producing it.

The expense of buying new barrels frequently plus the evaporation leading to wine loss could potentially make a high priced barrel wine just as profitable as a lower tier wine aged in SS.

Just a theory, would love someone who knows the finical side to chime in


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## JohnT

JimHarris said:


> I would be interested in if there really are higher margins. I know the wines sell for a lot more, but there are higher costs in producing it.
> 
> The expense of buying new barrels frequently plus the evaporation leading to wine loss could potentially make a high priced barrel wine just as profitable as a lower tier wine aged in SS.
> 
> Just a theory, would love someone who knows the finical side to chime in


 
Speaking from a strictly financial point of view, there is also the prolonged inventory costs. Barrel aging does add to the all over production time which does also come at a price. 

I am just glad that not EVERYTHING is ran by accountants.


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## dcbrown73

I know Flex tanks offer micro-ox, but does it allow evaporation also?

If so, I think I might be more inclined to do that rather than a barrel as I heard to get a real benefit of the barrel. You usually need a full size one. (I do not make that much wine) I heard smaller ones, you really do not get the full benefit due to it will over-oak the wine (too much oak surface area to wine volume) before you get the full benefit (via time spent in the barrel) of micro-ox and evaporation. 

I suppose ones the smaller barrel becomes neutral. Then you could just add enough oak and then allow the micro-ox and evaporation to happen.


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## ibglowin

Micro Ox, yes. Evaporation, no. Micro Ox is more important of the two IMHO.

Easy to clean and store if you don't need it or have enough wine unlike a barrel.

Down side, 15G is the smallest volume they make.



dcbrown73 said:


> I know Flex tanks offer micro-ox, but does it allow evaporation also?


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## Boatboy24

dcbrown73 said:


> I know Flex tanks offer micro-ox, but does it allow evaporation also?
> 
> If so, I think I might be more inclined to do that rather than a barrel as I heard to get a real benefit of the barrel. You usually need a full size one. (I do not make that much wine) I heard smaller ones, you really do not get the full benefit due to it will over-oak the wine (too much oak surface area to wine volume) before you get the full benefit (via time spent in the barrel) of micro-ox and evaporation.
> 
> I suppose ones the smaller barrel becomes neutral. Then you could just add enough oak and then allow the micro-ox and evaporation to happen.



That becomes a non-factor very quickly. 3-4 months in a 6 gallon barrel is plenty (though I occasionally go 6 with wines from grapes). By the 3rd or 4th wine, you're up to that point without over oaking. After two years, or a bit less, you are neutral.


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## dcbrown73

Boatboy24 said:


> That becomes a non-factor very quickly. 3-4 months in a 6 gallon barrel is plenty (though I occasionally go 6 with wines from grapes). By the 3rd or 4th wine, you're up to that point without over oaking. After two years, or a bit less, you are neutral.



What size barrel are you currently using? Also, how difficult are they to maintain compared to say a flex tank?


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## jburtner

I have hesitated on getting a barrell so far because I was not sure if I would have enough wine in production to always keep it full..... I don't think that is ever realistically going to be a problem as I seem to keep between 5-10 carboys full all the time....?

I also want to start doing only grape or frozen must batches - just seems like life is too short not to use best ingredients and as fresh as possible - especially when you are regularly putting 18-24 months of work into the product.

THink from here on when I need more containers I'll do barrells instead of carboy's - Going to try it anyway...

Just my thoughts!

Cheers!
-johann


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## Boatboy24

dcbrown73 said:


> What size barrel are you currently using? Also, how difficult are they to maintain compared to say a flex tank?



I can't compare to a flex tank, as I don't have one.

My barrels are all 23L. They are pretty easy to maintain, as long as you keep them full. When I rack a wine out of a barrel, the barrel gets a hot water rinse, then the next wine goes in. Easy, peasy.


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I can't compare to a flex tank, as I don't have one.
> 
> My barrels are all 23L. They are pretty easy to maintain, as long as you keep them full. When I rack a wine out of a barrel, the barrel gets a hot water rinse, then the next wine goes in. Easy, peasy.



I handle mine the same as Jim, hot water rinse, fill er up. As far as time, my experience is similar, after a few wines and under 2 years, neutral, which was my goal for the 6 gallon barrels. Now my wines are in them for 6 months, so I only run two wines a year through one barrel, adding French oak beans to oak. The 12 gallon barrel is only on its second wine, but I'm liking the bit larger size and will be increasing my batch sizes accordingly.

Next move for me is probably just doing one large batche this year of the best grapes I can find, and filling a full size French barrel and aging around a year. Next year I'll add one barrel and one batch so I can age a wine in 1 new barrel, 1 used barrel, and combine. Probably wishful thinking, but that's where my brain is today..........subject to change.


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## dcbrown73

Boatboy24 said:


> I can't compare to a flex tank, as I don't have one.
> 
> My barrels are all 23L. They are pretty easy to maintain, as long as you keep them full. When I rack a wine out of a barrel, the barrel gets a hot water rinse, then the next wine goes in. Easy, peasy.



Do you soak it in k-meta solution or anything like that? (pre-first use, or between usage?)

Obviously, I can't have a barrel until I purchase a new house (between houses now)


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## AZMDTed

I agree with Jim, no problem at all. Only difference for me is that after rinsing I will add a Kmeta/Citric Acid solution and let it sit for a few minutes, then rinse again. Once you get a new barrel broken in and any leaks sealed, just keep producing enough wine to always have wine in them and they are no harder than dealing with carboys. Just top up every two weeks as a new barrels will eat wine. Then add a 1/4 tsp of kmeta a month.


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## ibglowin

I have 4 23L Vadai's 

Started with just one LOL

After the last one was well neutral I did a good old fashioned barrel deep sanitization on all of them with a mixture of citric acid and sulfite. Let stand for a week, drain, rinse well, and they were back to good as new condition with the exception of all those stains and being neutral!


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## dcbrown73

Thanks guys!


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## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> I have 4 23L Vadai's
> 
> Started with just one LOL
> 
> After the last one was well neutral I did a good old fashioned barrel deep sanitization on all of them with a mixture of citric acid and sulfite. Let stand for a week, drain, rinse well, and they were back to good as new condition with the exception of all those stains and being neutral!



I just did that with two of mine and will be doing it on the 3rd when the next wine comes out. The winery where I get my grapes offers a power washing service that I may take advantage of at some point.


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## ibglowin

If they offered a genuine "steam cleaning" I would be all over that "like white on rice" as they say.

I just used a hose end sprayer set to a high tight spray and blasted mine as best I could.



Boatboy24 said:


> The winery where I get my grapes offers a power washing service that I may take advantage of at some point.


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## marino

Mike, what are the proportions of citric acid to sulfite for this deep cleaning? I have wanted to do mine but never found the right answer for this.


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## Boatboy24

marino said:


> Mike, what are the proportions of citric acid to sulfite for this deep cleaning? I have wanted to do mine but never found the right answer for this.



My oldest barrel is empty of wine right now, so I have it filled with a solution. What I read in the MoreWine manual is 1g of Citric acid and 2g of KMETA per liter.


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## ibglowin

I used this recipe and scaled it up for 6G:

_*Potassium Metabisulfite and Citric Acid – We often recommend this method to our customers. It creates a cost-effective sanitizing rinse, meaning no additional rinsing with clean water. Potassium metabisulfate has a strong odor and those allergic to sulfites may be aggravated by its potency. Measure carefully. In a gallon of water, add 2 teaspoons of potassium metabisulfite and 1 tablespoon of citric acid. *_



marino said:


> Mike, what are the proportions of citric acid to sulfite for this deep cleaning? I have wanted to do mine but never found the right answer for this.


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## sdelli

Maybe because I am very particular on the taste of my expensive wine. But I actually find that when a barrel get's too old even oak spirals or cubes cannot stop the off taste of an old barrel taste getting into the wine..... Time to retire!


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## marino

This is interesting. How old is an old barrel? What does it taste like? I've only had my small Vadais for 3 years, but am really curious


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## sdelli

I noticed this in many different types of barrels after they got over 3 years old. All were smaller from 6 to 15 gal. Always did cubes or stave infusion but nothing like the clean taste of a newer barrel.


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## marino

So, not "clean" ? Was the wood affected by moisture?


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## sdelli

Not really... Just got a bland off taste as they got old. Even did a cleaning on them.


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## marino

Hm.. I'll remain vigilant!


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## 4score

Boatboy24 said:


> My oldest barrel is empty of wine right now, so I have it filled with a solution. What I read in the MoreWine manual is 1g of Citric acid and 2g of KMETA per liter.



I've seen this rule of thumb before. 

I like to see what SO2 PPM they are calling for with such a recipe (2g SO2 per liter). So, if you do the math for a 225 liter (60 gallon) barrel, you're adding 450 grams of SO2. Further, if you solve for PPM, you get something like 1130 PPM. Wow, that's a lot of SO2! I usually add enough citric acid to get the pH in the 3.5 neighborhood, then aim for 100 PPM SO2 or slightly higher. I figure that is is the ratio of the previous wine and why would it require more SO2 for storage than the wine provides? Of course, if you're talking about a quick rinse/clean, that is still a lot of SO2, but maybe ok?


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## stickman

I agree, 100 ppm is enough if the pH is low enough.


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