# Water chemistry?



## wineinmd (Jan 29, 2015)

I've dipped my toes into the water chemistry aspect of homebrewing and was wondering how important of a factor it is in winemaking. Will regular tap water work? Would there be any benefit to using reverse osmosis or distilled water?

Thanks!


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## Deezil (Jan 29, 2015)

R/O and distilled water are both devoid of the minerals and vitamins normally found in water, which makes them a bit harsher even drinking as water - this will translate into the finished wine.

Spring water is preferred, but if you drink your tap water, then using tap water would be fine.

I tend to make wines that are more juice than water these days, and my tap water isn't too bad, so I feel fine using it for the minimal amounts that I do need.


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## wineinmd (Jan 29, 2015)

Deezil said:


> R/O and distilled water are both devoid of the minerals and vitamins normally found in water, which makes them a bit harsher even drinking as water - this will translate into the finished wine.
> 
> Spring water is preferred, but if you drink your tap water, then using tap water would be fine.
> 
> I tend to make wines that are more juice than water these days, and my tap water isn't too bad, so I feel fine using it for the minimal amounts that I do need.


Thanks. In homebrewing, if one starts with R/O they then add some desired minerals back into the R/O water to get the proper amount of certain minerals. I wasn't sure if there was an equivalent in winemaking. 

My tap water is OK, but not great. I much prefer to get it from the refrigerator which is filtered. I guess I'll go with spring water then. Since so much of the end product of the kit is water, I figured it makes sense to make sure I get that part right. 

I appreciate the input. The engineer in me wants to investigate every aspect and make sure I'm not missing out on an easy steps to help improve quality.


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## Deezil (Jan 29, 2015)

If you have the ability to add the minerals back to the R/O water, that would work. The filtered fridge water would too, but I can imagine the pain that would be lol


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## DoctorCAD (Jan 29, 2015)

I just use a Brira. It takes some smell and off flavors out but nothing more.


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## murphyaii (Jan 30, 2015)

I've used tap water for my first batch of wine and it tasted very sharp.
Then i went to the supermarket and bought mineral and spring water for the next batch of wine and the taste is hugely different and much more smoother.

so that's my 2 cents of intel.


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## wineinmd (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks to everyone for the replies. 

Does anyone have a quick overview on what minerals should be added to R/O water? I can get it for $0.30/gallon, so that would be an attractive option for me vs. getting 5+ gallons of water from my fridge. My first kit is a Sauv Blanc, if that makes any difference, but I'm planning on doing some reds too, so an all-encompassing overview would be great.


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## Floandgary (Jan 30, 2015)

Public water systems use chemical means to purify/disinfect their water. The chemical presence can be quite noticeable at times. Though not harmful, generally speaking, they can lend an unintended "nose' to what should be a pleasant aroma. Well water, typically a go-to, can be fraught with iron/hardness issues. Easily treated and every so often checked for undesirables. Spring water, now there's a treat! How many remember a pipe sticking out of a hillside with an inexhaustible supply of crystal clear, cold, sweet water and usually a lineup of people with an assortment of containers?
Alas,, with so many modern day chemicals, agricultural and industrial, deposited in our soil it could be risky. When I need to use any quantity of water in my winemaking I prefer bottled spring water if that's truly what it is. So far no problems


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## wineinmd (Jan 30, 2015)

I've not had much luck finding anything specific regarding additions. The best I've found is this site that talks about the issues relative to each of the typical sources of water, along with a suggestion that adding yeast nutrient to distilled water would be a good starting point.


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## richmke (Jan 30, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> a suggestion that adding yeast nutrient to distilled water would be a good starting point.




Use something like Fermax that includes minerals. Some yeast nutrient are just DAP and Ammonia.


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## wineinmd (Jan 30, 2015)

richmke said:


> Use something like Fermax that includes minerals. Some yeast nutrient are just DAP and Ammonia.


This is the stuff I have. 

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/yeast-nutrient.html

A quick search on urea revealed some mixed feelings on the product. My "local" homebrew/wine/cheese store sells Fermax. I might go with spring water this time and pick up some Fermax the next time I'm at my local homebrew/wine/cheese store to use on a future batch.


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## Deezil (Jan 30, 2015)

Doug, at Brew and Wine Supply, one of the forum sponsors, has the hook up on most of the Scotts Lab products; it's what I use, and where I got them. Prices and shipping are reasonable, customer service is top notch.


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## Norton (Jan 30, 2015)

"Distilled Water
Distilled water is water from which all the minerals have been removed, either by a distillation or reverse osmosis process. We don't recommend using distilled water alone when reconstituting your concentrated grape juice, because the wine yeast depends upon a small amount of minerals for "food" in order to live and convert the sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide."

This was the objection that I saw to using reverse osmosis water. I have always used reverse osmosis water but I've never had a problem with fermentation.


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## wineinmd (Jan 30, 2015)

Norton said:


> This was the objection that I saw to using reverse osmosis water. I have always used reverse osmosis water but I've never had a problem with fermentation.


That's what I saw too after already picking up some R/O water. I'm not in a big hurry and I figure it can't hurt to use the Fermax, so I'll wait until I can get some before using the R/O water. I'll pick up some spring water for this batch.

I can equate this a little to pitching liquid yeast while brewing. Tossing a vial of liquid yeast right into the wort will make decent beer. Making a starter though ensures you have healthy yeast in sufficient amount to fully complete the task without stressing them. If everything else is equal, the end result will very likely be a better finished product. 

This might be much ado about nothing, but for the extra $0.25 a batch, I'll give the Fermax a shot.


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## wineinmd (Feb 2, 2015)

The engineer/researcher in me took over this weekend and I've come up with a new plan. Lately, I'd been reading more and working on incorporating new yeast handling practices in my brewing, so I figured I should look into it a little more for wine. I couldn't find much info online about the Fermax, so I did some further digging. 

Based on other threads on here, specifically this post, and reading up on Lallemand website, I'm going to start the yeast off with Go-Ferm and then add Fermaid O at the end of the lag phase and about 1/3 of the way through fermentation.

I'm pretty comfortable with additions and this sounds like a fairly scientific approach. I don't quite understand all of the inner workings of the yeast, but I've learned enough from brewing that good yeast handling practices can make noticeable differences in the finished product. Treat them right and they'll do a great job.

Edit to add: Here's a link to a quick run-down from Lallemand. Granted, it's a sales pitch for their products, but the underlying pamphlet did a good job of introducing the science behind it.

Edit 2: After reading more about the differences between Fermaid K and Fermaid O, I'll be going with O.


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## wineinmd (Feb 2, 2015)

Deezil,

Your post really got me headed in the right direction. Can you explain your thought process behind this...



> That's not to say you can't accomplish a Low-YAN ferment with Fermaid-O, its just cost-prohibitive.



What are the costs involved? I would have thought that a Low-YAN ferment would need fewer additions. It looks like Fermaid O is about twice as expensive, but the cost of each is small compared to the cost of the kit.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 2, 2015)

I believe that by "low-YAN ferment," he meant fermenting a must that, in its native state, had a low amount of yeast-assimilable nitrogen. Such a must would require larger additions of nutrient, hence the higher cost.

I grant you that "low-YAN ferment" could be read either way.


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## wineinmd (Feb 2, 2015)

I went back and forth on it, but couldn't tell if I was missing something. Fermaid O is about twice as expensive and it looks like it contributes about 1/2 the amount on YAN per given amount, so that made sense, but I ended up deciding that it read the other way.

Now I have to figure out the most cost-effective way to get the Go-Ferm and Fermaid O. Looks like shipping will be just as much as the products and I didn't see either one at my LHBS yesterday. I saw the reply earlier about Brew & Wine Supply and their prices are competitive to the bigger stores, so I might try them.


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## Gussman (Feb 2, 2015)

I use Spring Water from Deer Park , Maryland, and it is very good and I continually get a great taste from my wine. But, here in Parkersburg, West Virginia, our water is real soft and very few chemicals have been added due to our geographical location of being right on the Ohio River with lots of Spring Fed Creeks. WalMart has Spring Water for $1.00 a gallon if you have access. I guess you have to use trial and error (TE) to see what works best for you. Preferably, I'd use Spring Water.


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## Deezil (Feb 2, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I believe that by "low-YAN ferment," he meant fermenting a must that, in its native state, had a low amount of yeast-assimilable nitrogen. Such a must would require larger additions of nutrient, hence the higher cost.
> 
> I grant you that "low-YAN ferment" could be read either way.



Bingo... but I see what you're saying, thanks for pointing that out. 



wineinmd said:


> I went back and forth on it, but couldn't tell if I was missing something. Fermaid O is about twice as expensive and it looks like it contributes about 1/2 the amount on YAN per given amount, so that made sense, but I ended up deciding that it read the other way.
> 
> Now I have to figure out the most cost-effective way to get the Go-Ferm and Fermaid O. Looks like shipping will be just as much as the products and I didn't see either one at my LHBS yesterday. I saw the reply earlier about Brew & Wine Supply and their prices are competitive to the bigger stores, so I might try them.



Pretty sure Brew & Wine supply uses flat rate shipping boxes, which beats most other shipping charges. I bought pretty big packages at the time to make the shipping more acceptable for my situation.. I ended up spending more, but I've yet to need to restock much of anything. I'll probably need Fermaid-O before anything else though.

Fermaid-O is half the YAN by numbers, but because it's assimilated more efficiently, it stretches farther than it sounds(2-3x). This is something you can see Seth and I going back and forth on in various threads on the forum. I assume it's worth more (3x) than he does (2x), but I hover over my fermentations smelling for H2S and have used this experience to come to my conclusion. Seth adds more Fermaid-O than I do, because he uses the lower factor for the efficiency, but we both seem to churn out pretty good finished products using different approaches.


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## wineinmd (Feb 2, 2015)

Deezil said:


> Bingo... but I see what you're saying, thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. 

Are there are any estimates for YAN value in kits? Based on your original post, there doesn't seem to be a way to measure it at home. Do you assume a middle of the road value? 

Going with your 3x value, how much Fermaid O do you add? Do you split your additions?


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## Deezil (Feb 2, 2015)

I think there may be a way to do this at home, but it would require some specialized equipment at the value of a few hundred dollars or more, and the specific know-how to use those pieces of equipment. It's more of a winery-scale sort of thing still. I'm waiting for a way to measure YAN at home, with baited breath.

I don't make many kits, honestly. I think I've only ever made one.

How much I add depends on what I'm working with, and it takes a little research coupled with a few years of experience. 

Every batch will have different YAN levels, so I start by looking for published (read: not a blog or personal take, but scientific white papers) evidence of the amount of YAN in the produce that I'm working with and couple this research with a physical take of the fruit. Is it optimally ripe? Or was it picked early? Is there a lot of visual disease or pest pressure indicators on the produce. From there, I can feel comfortable roughly scaling the fruit using the research as '100%' and scaling back based on any deficiencies I've found.

The second part of this is looking at the yeast I'm using and where it falls on the scale of low-medium-high in the chart, in that Yeast Nutrients post. That scale somewhat directly relates to necessary YAN levels needed for those yeast to ferment ~25 brix without issue. I say somewhat because some of this research is still being done or hasn't been published for the general public. But if the yeast requires more nutrients for optimal performance than what I've guesstimated the fruit to contain, I know I need to be a little more heavy handed with the Fermaid-O and not hold so strictly to the 3x efficiency rating.

Once I've determined that much, I look at the amount of sugar I'm trying to ferment and where that is in relation to the yeast nutrient requirements, as well as is it over or under the 25 Brix that the yeast nutrients as scaled to. That can push or pull on the overall amount of Fermaid-O I'll be using; if it's under 25 I can get away with less but if it's over 25 it's going to be more nutrient needed.

Knowing that most fermentations need at least 200 ppm YAN, but most don't need over 350 ppm, and basing these assumptions along the low-medium-high scale used for the yeast chart, I can ballpark the amount of YAN I'll need to supplement by subtracting the assumed YAN level of the fruit from where my guesstimate put me. This is general YAN though, so then I can divide that by my efficiency factor to adjust for organic/Fermaid-O supplied YAN.

So then I have an idea of how much YAN the fermentation will need, but this is in no way a 'hard number'. Because Fermaid-O is assimilable farther into fermentation than inorganic nitrogen, I split this total into 3 additions - one after the lag phase, and the other two at 1/3 sugar breaks. But, the catch is, that I watch the efficiency of that first addition. Did the ferment make it from the lag phase to the 1/3 sugar break, without any H2S, without appearing to stall, without any issues? If it did, I'm generally in the right ballpark for all my calculations. If it didn't, if there's H2S or if the cap sinks on me or doesn't reform after a vigorous stirring -then I know I'm off some and need to compensate on further nutrient additions so I don't ruin the batch with fermentation difficulties.


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## wineinmd (Feb 2, 2015)

That all makes sense. I figured that working with produce would give you a better chance to coming up with a starting point if you know where to look. I doubt I'll find any info on my inexpensive white kit. Maybe if I contact Winexpert? 

Thanks for taking the time to walk me through your process. I've got a lot to learn, which is just fine by me. That's a big part of the enjoyment for me.


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## wineinmd (Feb 3, 2015)

I sent an email to the [email protected] email address asking for the YAN level for my kit. I'm not expecting much, but it can't hurt to ask.

The next topic I've been researching is sulfite levels at bottling. Looks to me that the surefire way to determine the proper addition amount is to measure free SO2 and pH levels and then plug them into a calculator, using the appropriate contribution factor for the type of addition (campden vs. K-meta). Is that correct?


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## RegarRenill (Feb 5, 2015)

Most campden tablets are k-meta, in tablet form versus powder. Occasionally you will find some that are Na-meta, instead.


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## wineinmd (Feb 10, 2015)

Deezil said:


> Pretty sure Brew & Wine supply uses flat rate shipping boxes, which beats most other shipping charges. I bought pretty big packages at the time to make the shipping more acceptable for my situation.. I ended up spending more, but I've yet to need to restock much of anything. I'll probably need Fermaid-O before anything else though.
> 
> Fermaid-O is half the YAN by numbers, but because it's assimilated more efficiently, it stretches farther than it sounds(2-3x). This is something you can see Seth and I going back and forth on in various threads on the forum. I assume it's worth more (3x) than he does (2x), but I hover over my fermentations smelling for H2S and have used this experience to come to my conclusion. Seth adds more Fermaid-O than I do, because he uses the lower factor for the efficiency, but we both seem to churn out pretty good finished products using different approaches.


I put my order in a couple days ago and it should be here tomorrow. I added a couple extra packets of yeast to have on hand as well since they were on sale and it helped fill up the shipping box. 

The email receipt does not list what I ordered and the From: doesn't mention Brew & Wine Supply at all. I guess that might not be uncommon for smaller retailers, but it struck me as odd.


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## wineinmd (Mar 17, 2015)

Just wanted to follow up. My order came in just fine, but things got put on hold with the arrival of a new baby. I just got a chance to start the batch on Sunday. I used the GoFerm as planned and topped off with R/O water. I was planning on adding Fermaid O at the end of the lag phase, but when I got home from work less than 24 hours after pitching the yeast, it was already bubbling away. I'll try to catch it at the 1/3 mark for the Fermaid O addition, but given how quickly it took off, even in the 64 degree basement, I'm wondering if it is really necessary. 

The process was super easy compared to brewing. Even with the GoFerm prep, I had put everything away within an hour.


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## ceeaton (Mar 17, 2015)

Yea, beats a six hour all grain brew session, that's for sure. Just worried that I'm getting lazy in my beer brewing since the wine making takes less time. But you still can't beat brewing a batch and drinking it 3 weeks later (force CO2 in keg).


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## seth8530 (Mar 17, 2015)

Pretty much, plus if you are making wine from juice or some sort of grape product, you starting YAN should not be that bad.. So, it should not be THAT expensive. 

I tend to buy fermaid in bulk since I make a lot of mead...


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## wineinmd (Mar 19, 2015)

Gravity was down to 1.058 last night from 1.092, so I added the Fermaid O. There was a scary moment when I made the addition. It hissed and foamed on top, just like I had opened a soda. My brain immediately thought it was going to be like a boilover during brewing, and it was one of those slow motion things where I knew I wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Luckily, it calmed back down within a couple seconds, so I popped the lid back down and it started bubbling again right away.


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## wineinmd (Mar 23, 2015)

The yeast is still going strong. Gravity was down to 1.012 yesterday. I snuck a small sample from the hydrometer test tube and I thought the flavor was good. Still a little sweet since it hadn't finished fermenting yet, but I think I'm really going to enjoy it. I'll rack it over tonight if it is down below the magic 1.010 by then. 

I think the next time I make another white I'll stick it in my swamp cooler like I do with my beer. Swamp cooler = fermenting bucket inside a giant tote filled with water and swapping out frozen water bottles to keep it cool. I'd like to slow it down a little more to help retain more of the fruity compounds.


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## wineinmd (Mar 24, 2015)

Life got in the way so I didn't get to rack it until this afternoon. Gravity was down to 1.000. I will sample the last inch of the hydrometer sample after work. 

I had used my hydrometer the other day to take the OG reading for my IPA, so my mind was expecting the hydrometer to float itself up once I got the tube most of the way full. I was mindlessly tapping on it before realizing that it was doing what it was supposed to do.


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## NoobVinter (Mar 26, 2015)

My two cents: I use Poland Spring water. Hasn't let me down yet, unlike distilled water. The last and only time I ever used it I got a stuck fermentation. I had to rack, add tons of O2, and pitch again. I lost so much flavor that day....anyway it was enough for me to stick with spring water.


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## wineinmd (Apr 4, 2015)

I had another learning lesson yesterday evening. I went about degassing, not really knowing what to expect. I started at a slow speed and didn't see much action. I turned it up a little more and saw some activity. I cranked it up even more and soon it looked like someone had dropped a Mentos in diet coke. I probably lost a couple cups, but it is still slightly above the shoulder of the carboy. 

The good news is that the wine is really starting to clear already. I'll probably let it sit for about a month or so and see where it's at.


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## wineinmd (Apr 4, 2015)

Also, which in retrospect I should have expected, the small sample I stole from the hydrometer tube before degassing had several carbonic bite. The taste was good up front, but the finish was rough. Acidic/twangy/tart. If I would have thought about the carbonic bite angle, I would have let it sit a while to see if it improved, but I'm not overly concerned.


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## PostToastee (Apr 5, 2015)

are you making a traditional wine, ie, cabs, merlots, chardonnays or a fruit based wine?


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## wineinmd (Apr 5, 2015)

It's a Sauvignon Blanc.


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