# Pruning Advice



## Ladder22 (Dec 8, 2013)

Hi

I have a 10 year vine vine (Vroege van der Laan) that was never trained or pruned properly.

I read that the Guyot method is recommended for this vine, but the spur A is very low down the rod and I'm wondering if I should prune by rod and spur instead? 

It also has two rods (1 & 2in the picture) and I'm wondering if I should prune one of then right back.

Any advice much appreciated!


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## grapeman (Dec 8, 2013)

Welcome to the forum. Your IP address shows you are from Ireland. You might not get a lot of help here being based and most of the members in the US.

Can anyone help Ladder22?
I see the grape variety is the hardiest of vitis vinifera and fruits in UK so hopefully it works for you there. I know what I would do to the vine here, but over there another pruning method such as you suggest might work better. Over here the rod is the equivalent of a shoot.


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## blumentopferde (Dec 17, 2013)

I think your question is not site-specific (and I'm one of the few European members here), so here's my take:

You have one single vine growing at a wall. Unless you don't want to add more vines I would dismiss the Guyot-system and have a cordon instead. With a cordon you can make your vine growing very tall over the years and cover large parts of the wall, also you can let it grow in whatever form you want. With the Guyot system you can't cover much more than an area of 1,5x1,5m per vine.

Anyways. For whatever training system you will choose you will need some wires, net or framework, where the vines can cling to. Then you need a plan of how you'd want to layout the vine. 

For a cordon I'd either take shoot "a" and dismiss the the rest, to start from scratch, or take shoot "b", to form the right arm out of it, and maybe use a small shoot at the same height to build up the left arm.

But: It seems like these shoots are hanging very low, so I'd rather start from scratch (You have to consider that the grapes will hang even lower!). It also seems like the left part of the wall ends at the top of the picture. So maybe that's not the best place for a cordon at all, as it will be complicated to errect the wiring or framework on top of the wall.

I'm sure you'll find a tutorial of how to build a cordon somewhere in the net, it's complicated to explain that in words .


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## Ladder22 (Dec 22, 2013)

Many thanks for the feedback Grapeman and Blumentopferde,

If I go with the cordon method, would I not leave "1" as is - to be the leader (albeit a fairly crooked 5 foot one"), cut out "2", and prune all the other laterals to 1 inch/2 strong buds?

Cheers


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## blumentopferde (Dec 22, 2013)

If you don't care much about the looks, you can use "1" as the trunk.

But if you then shorten the lateral canes you will create a vertical cordon with new shoots growing out to the sides.

For a regular cordon (with horizontal arms), you actually start like a guyot system: You take one long fruting cane, bend it straight to a wire or frame, and remove the buds on the lower side (except for the last one, you can use this one for prolongation of the arm).

The difference comes in the second year: You don't cut back to one single long fruiting cane again, you shorten all last years shoots to one or two buds instead.


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## VENman (Dec 22, 2013)

Are b and c this years growth? Its hard to tell from the picture...


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## Ladder22 (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes VENman a, b, c & d are all this year. In fact everything bar 1 & 2 are this years shoots ...


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## blumentopferde (Dec 23, 2013)

Here's a sketch of how you could start from cane "a" to build up a traditional cordon:





EDIT:
- The first row of wires or wooden framework is at the height where you want to have your cordon. You might reach this height already next year.
- You can extend the cordon up to 4 or 5 buds each year, to the length you want to cover.
- As long as your cordon didn't reach it's final size it is recommended to reduce the yield to prevent overstraining.

EDIT2:
- You could also start with cane "b" or "c" instead of "a" if you don't mind a crooked trunk.


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## blumentopferde (Dec 23, 2013)

You could even switch between cordon and VSP-(Guyot-) system, if you feel like doing so:





For the Guyot system you just leave one long cane (preferably the one closest to the trunk) instead of several short canes.

EDIT: You better tie the trunk to a pole to keep it straight!
EDIT2: The first illustration is actually not a cordon yet, it is "still" a guyot system (as a cordon starts out the same way as the guyot system, except for the last shoot which would point upwards in the guyot system) so ignore the caption below! But of course you could turn a cordon into a guyot-system by using the first cane as a fruting cane and removing the rest of the cordon.


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## VENman (Dec 23, 2013)

If you follow the advice given and you disbud all but the top two you will have two giant bull canes. This vine is older and likely has a significant root system. If you prune back that hard you will have some gnarly big canes covered in blind buds that will emerge from those two buds. I would recommend taking c & b off of 2 and doing a guyot/cane pruned system. You could do c as a fruiting cane and b as the renewal spur. Next year you could take 2 fruiting canes and two renewal spurs...


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## grapeman (Dec 24, 2013)

I tend to liking VENman's way a bit more for his reason of excessive growth of the new shoots. I think I would cut off C and the heavier wood right above the number 1 on the picture. I would leave the small cane at that same spot going to the left. This will leave two canes to become future cordons if desired. This will help with the extra energy stored in the roots so the vine doesn't go vegetative too bad with bull wood.


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## blumentopferde (Dec 24, 2013)

VENman said:


> If you follow the advice given and you disbud all but the top two you will have two giant bull canes. This vine is older and likely has a significant root system. If you prune back that hard you will have some gnarly big canes covered in blind buds that will emerge from those two buds.


That's a good point!

Still he could avoid excessive growth of the remaining shoots if he just left a few more shoots or buds over and did the final pruning in spring 2015 instead of this spring. 

So he'd allow a few more shoots to grow, which he will remove as soon as he built up the cordon.

I wouldn't go for a guyot system on a wall. I just don't think that it is very decorative and it doesn't allow you to cover much of the wall. 



grapeman said:


> I tend to liking VENman's way a bit more for his reason of excessive growth of the new shoots. I think I would cut off C and the heavier wood right above the number 1 on the picture. I would leave the small cane at that same spot going to the left. This will leave two canes to become future cordons if desired. This will help with the extra energy stored in the roots so the vine doesn't go vegetative too bad with bull wood.


I don't know how high these canes are, but they are just two bricks above the ground. This seems far too low for a cordon to me. Maybe Ladder22 could tell us at which height the canes are...


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## VENman (Dec 25, 2013)

I understand where you're coming from, but at least with a guyot he could take a small crop this year off of the fruiting cane he leaves... plus it keeps that old vine look of the trunk which I personally like. ;-)


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## blumentopferde (Dec 27, 2013)

Well, now it's up to Ladder22 to decide what he's going to do...

Guyot would be built up quickly, cordon takes more time but allows to cover much more of the wall, he could even think of his own method, arrange the shoots fan-like, have a vertical cordon, he might even mix guyot and cordon, as long as he knows what he's doing


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## Ladder22 (Dec 27, 2013)

Hi All,

Thank you all so much for considering my request, I really do appreciate you making the time to share your thoughts. And as for Blumentopferde's wonderful diagrams....

I think I'll go for a double Guyot as I am limited by space (approx 1.5m on either side of the trunk) and I would like some grapes next Summer. 

So I'm thinking:

use "a & b" as the left and right horizontal stems respectively for next year's growth
Use "c" as a renewal spur, or possibly the unnamed cane on top of 2 where it turns right
Cut off 1
Cut 2 after "b"

Does that sound like a decent plan?

P.s. The blocks are approx 9" high each, and the wall is approx 6" high (the photo doesn't show its full height)


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## blumentopferde (Dec 27, 2013)

I'd rather use "b"&"c" for next year's growth and use some of the short canes around the bend of "2" as renewal spurs.
This way you could form a "head" at the place, where there is the bend of "2" now, in the future...

I stumbled upon this, maybe it is helpful for you:
http://justinwine.typepad.com/just_blog/2013/01/


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## Ladder22 (Dec 29, 2013)

Thanks Blumentopferde,

I've done the pruning. I just need to decide which replacement shoot to use.

I see in the link you sent they kept the T shape of the cordon frame. They selected a replacement spur on one trunk and used horizontal shoots on the other.

I have the option of lopping off trunk "a" entirely and keeping everything on trunk "b" as you suggested (i.e. 3 as replacement spur and c & d as horizontals, or I could copy the approach in the link and use either 1 or 2 on "a" as replacement spurs.

Is one or the other approach preferable?

Thanks in advance....


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## blumentopferde (Dec 29, 2013)

I must confess, I don't know which one is the better way.

On Guyot system with 2 canes a T-shape of the "head" is quite common. I guess that it is also desirable as it gives you a larger area where new shoots can grow.

Usually the T-shape develops over years. So it might be an advantage that you already have something similar to this (actually a y-shape)

I'd say keep it, just in case! If you leave one renewal spur on "b" and one on "a" you might go on with a two-headed vine next year...


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## Ladder22 (Dec 31, 2013)

Many thanks Blumentopferde,

I'll keep the two trunks, and maybe go for a single Guyot off each trunk next year.

All the best


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## blumentopferde (Jan 1, 2014)

Fine!
I don't think that you can do much harm by keeping two trunks. I guess, the worst thing that could happen is that one arm does not perform as well as the other.

Anyways, you just have one vine and don't need to worry about spacing, canopy height and so on, so actually you can't do much wrong! As long as you keep at least one renewal spur (that could be any 1-year-old wood) the vine won't die (I wouldn't expect severe winters in Ireland  ) and you can still correct any mistakes...


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