# First Time with Grapes... Cry Baby



## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

So I picked up 3 cases of Cabernet Sauvignon at Santa Fe yesterday. They are Cry Baby Brand. I just got done reading about them and am a little apprehensive.

I dont know that much about the grape growing regions of California. There are from the Central Valley. From what some people are saying on another forum is that they are not the best quality. They were actually bashing this particular brand. 

Do you think I just made a mistake?

I just got done de-steming and crushing them. I will test acid and T/A tomorrow and adjust. A few people were saying that the acid needs to be in the 8+ range and that the wine absolutely has to be cold stabilized for it to have a chance at being of any quality.....


What do you think.

Cleaning


Crushing


All Crushed


Adding Campton



RR


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2013)

RegionRat said:


> I dont know that much about the grape growing regions of California. There are from the Central Valley. From what some people are saying on another forum is that they are not the best quality. They were actually bashing this particular brand.
> 
> Do you think I just made a mistake?
> 
> ...


 
RR, They are full of [email protected]!

I do not know of ANYONE that would advise you to up the acid to .8 gpl (especially a red). I have used this brand before and have had some success. If your acid is above the .56 gpl level, wait and adjust after fermentation to .6 to .65. I think that someone was pulling your leg.

I have never had to cold stabilize or add any type of fining agent. The wine clears just fine, given time.

I have several award winning results using this brand. I have to admit, though, that some years are better than others. By the looks of things, they look good.


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## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

John,

*sigh* thanks. When I was reading what these people had to say my heart dropped. I was like WTH. 

Live and learn.

RR


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2013)

RR, 

I am thinking that they were playing a cruel joke on you. If you took the acid up to .8, I would say that it would be undrinkable. I find a level of .7 as being overly tart. 

The grapes looked dark and lovely. Did you taste them? What kind of sugar did you get?


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## Bartman (Oct 8, 2013)

RegionRat said:


> I dont know that much about the grape growing regions of California. There are from the Central Valley. From what some people are saying on another forum is that they are not the best quality. They were actually bashing this particular brand.
> 
> RR


I think the lesson here is to not read other forums. 
Just stay here, and you'll get the straight poop. LOL -


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## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

Bartman said:


> I think the lesson here is to not read other forums.
> Just stay here, and you'll get the straight poop. LOL -




True that, you would think I would know better!!

RR


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## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

*Destem and Crush Vid*

The crusher works best if you turn the handle the right way....

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZxoQ0yp2Uk"]Crush[/ame]

RR


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## JohnT (Oct 8, 2013)

here is a quote I found on another web-site concerning the central valley...

Although the Sacramento and San Joaquin Valleys are not designated AVAs, the region produces 71 percent of the state’s wine grapes and is home to eight AVAs — Clarksburg, Diablo Grande, Dunnigan Hills, Lodi, Madera, Merritt Island, River Junction and Salado Creek. 

Seems to me that you should stay on this site!


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## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

JohnT said:


> RR,
> 
> I am thinking that they were playing a cruel joke on you. If you took the acid up to .8, I would say that it would be undrinkable. I find a level of .7 as being overly tart.
> 
> The grapes looked dark and lovely. Did you taste them? What kind of sugar did you get?




I am not a member of the forum where I read the bad reviews on these grapes. I just read a few people's opinions that these grapes made lousy wine.

They taste fine. My friend that was helping destem them could not believe how good the must tasted. I didnt test sugar or acid. I will tomorrow and post results.

RR


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## skipdonohue (Oct 8, 2013)

I made crybaby Cab Sauv in 2011.. Sorry to say, they are definitely the low man on the totem pole for quality.. Even the worker where I bought them told me to get rid of them and wait for the California Special brand to come in.. but it was too late.. Now its 2 years later, and I just blended some 2013 Chilean Cab to see if that will help with colour and body.. and will let this age another year or 2...


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## Rocky (Oct 8, 2013)

RR, you will be fine but do get your numbers as soon as you can. This year will be a great year for California wines and I am sure that the fine vineyards in the Central Valley are not exception. If the must tastes good you are more than halfway home.


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## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

skipdonohue said:


> I made crybaby Cab Sauv in 2011.. Sorry to say, they are definitely the low man on the totem pole for quality.. Even the worker where I bought them told me to get rid of them and wait for the California Special brand to come in.. but it was too late.. Now its 2 years later, and I just blended some 2013 Chilean Cab to see if that will help with colour and body.. and will let this age another year or 2...



That is along the lines of what they were saying on that_ other_ board.

Hey, like my dad used to say, " Some times you just have to drop your shorts and slide on the ice."






Rocky said:


> RR, you will be fine but do get your numbers as soon as you can. This year will be a great year for California wines and I am sure that the fine vineyards in the Central Valley are not exception. If the must tastes good you are more than halfway home.




I am at the firehouse now. I will test as soon as I get home tomorrow.

The must tasted real good. There was kind of, for the lack of a better word, a 'dirt' taste in the back ground. Is this normal?

RR


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 8, 2013)

RegionRat said:


> The must tasted real good. There was kind of, for the lack of a better word, a 'dirt' taste in the back ground. Is this normal?
> 
> RR



That must be what they mean by "terroir".


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## RegionRat (Oct 8, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> That must be what they mean by "terroir".



I had to look it up, LOL

RR


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## manvsvine (Oct 9, 2013)

What's the ph? 

Ph is much more important than TA . Central Valley grapes often come in at phs over 4.0

If so you may very well have to go upto 8 g/l TA to get the pH in the right range .

Don't let a pissing contest let you throw the baby out with the bath water


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## RegionRat (Oct 9, 2013)

*Here Are the Numbers*

I checked and here we go; 22Brix, ph 4.04, T/A 7.1. 

I tested 3 times

What do I do? 

RR


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## manvsvine (Oct 9, 2013)

I'd start with 1 gram per Litre tartaric addition. or 4 grams per gallon.
Mix it very well the check your ph again.

You'll want to bring it down to at least 3.8 . 

You may need to add more . Add stir check ph add more stir check repeat! 

I'd stop short of trying for an ideal 3.65 but you need to get it lower , 3.8 is reasonable not perfect but a decent compromise.
Otherwise you'll need crazy levels of so2 and it will taste flabby.

Welcome to Central Valley wine grapes. You can make good wine from it but you need to get a bit radical with acid additions .

This is why many people talk down about them .
I used them for years but don't anymore.


What are you useing to measure TA ( titratable acidity) ? Your acid seems high for the ph, you can't trust strips or titretes with red wine and I've never seen cv grapes with a TA that high.

But most ph meters are reliable and your ph looks right .( you used fresh buffers right?) 
Brix is a bit lower than I would expect .


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## RegionRat (Oct 10, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> I'd start with 1 gram per Litre tartaric addition. or 4 grams per gallon.
> Mix it very well the check your ph again.
> 
> You'll want to bring it down to at least 3.8 .
> ...



Thanks, you sound like you have, been there done that. I will follow your lead.

I dont know enough about this to start a war on here. I just want to make the best wine I can with the grapes available to me. This is my first time with fresh grapes. I have learned a lot. Next year there will be changes. 


Any way, I used a Vinmetrica SC-300 and Hanna 96811. Over the last year I have become very good at using them. In anticipation of the fall wine season I also ordered fresh buffers. I tested these grapes three time and am 100% sure the numbers are correct.

I pitched yeast earlier. I used D21 I got from_ MoreWine_ rehydrated with Go-Ferm. Also added was nutrient and 9oz dark toasted oak.


If anyone else has an opinion that would be great.

RR


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## Bartman (Oct 10, 2013)

I have lots of opinions, most of them aren't relevant here though. 

Seriously, RR, you have already learned that there are lots of ways to 'skin the cat', when it comes to making wine from grapes. One of the main lessons I have learned from this forum is that there is typically more than one correct/appropriate/effective way to convert grapes/other/fruit/juice into wine. Some ways work "better" than others, but sometimes it depends on the materials you start with. If you are hoping someone will reveal the one 'perfect' way of converting your grapes into an excellent wine, it ain't gonna happen - just to many variables involved, including your personal preferences/aptitudes. That's what makes it more of an art than a science. 

As with most of life, experience is the best teacher of all.


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## RegionRat (Oct 10, 2013)

Bartman said:


> I have lots of opinions, most of them aren't relevant here though.
> 
> Seriously, RR, you have already learned that there are lots of ways to 'skin the cat', when it comes to making wine from grapes. One of the main lessons I have learned from this forum is that there is typically more than one correct/appropriate/effective way to convert grapes/other/fruit/juice into wine. Some ways work "better" than others, but sometimes it depends on the materials you start with. If you are hoping someone will reveal the one 'perfect' way of converting your grapes into an excellent wine, it ain't gonna happen - just to many variables involved, including your personal preferences/aptitudes. That's what makes it more of an art than a science.
> 
> ...



Bartman, I could not agree more! Well put.

As for this wine. I added 28gr tartaric acid last night and woke up to 3.95 and 8g/l



manvsvine said:


> ......I'd stop short of trying for an ideal 3.65 but you need to get it lower , 3.8 is reasonable not perfect but a decent compromise....



Why would I not shoot for 3.65 if I am adjusting?

I figure I have 28 liters of juice. do you thing I should ad 1.5 g/l this time or stick to 1 g/l



RR


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## ibglowin (Oct 10, 2013)

What the heck good does it do you to have a wine with a pH of 3.65 but it now has a TA of 12 and puckers your mouth when you try to drink it? It is for that reason that you have to look at *BOTH* pH and TA. You add acid until you have maxed out your TA. If your pH is 3.8 or so, thats it for now. It ain't gonna taste flabby if your TA is 8.0 and pH is still up there I can guarantee that. If your sure about your measurements (and it sounds like you have every reason to be). Once the TA is maxed out, stick a fork in it for now. Ferment it, MLF it and check the pH and TA in a few weeks/months after you have let it settle and clear. You can hit it again with another round of Tartaric and see if you can nudge it closer to a textbook value.

One things for sure, there are plenty of commercial pH 3.8 wines on the shelves that are 90pts or better and they are not flabby in any way. You will have to hit it with higher amoiunts of SO2 but that's what its for.


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## RegionRat (Oct 10, 2013)

ibglowin said:


> What the heck good does it do you to have a wine with a pH of 3.65 but it now has a TA of 12 and puckers your mouth when you try to drink it? It is for that reason that you have to look at *BOTH* pH and TA. You add acid until you have maxed out your TA. If your pH is 3.8 or so, thats it for now. It ain't gonna taste flabby if your TA is 8.0 and pH is still up there I can guarantee that. If your sure about your measurements (and it sounds like you have every reason to be). Once the TA is maxed out, stick a fork in it for now. Ferment it, MLF it and check the pH and TA in a few weeks/months after you have let it settle and clear. You can hit it again with another round of Tartaric and see if you can nudge it closer to a textbook value.
> 
> One things for sure, there are plenty of commercial pH 3.8 wines on the shelves that are 90pts or better and they are not flabby in any way. You will have to hit it with higher amoiunts of SO2 but that's what its for.



Thanks for the reply. That helps me put a little more perspective on the acid situation. 

I did throw additional 28 gr of tataric this morning before I read your response. I hope I didnt mess up. I will test tonight or Sat morning when I get off work. 

RR


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## manvsvine (Oct 10, 2013)

You should be fine with that addition 

Yes as I said adding acid to get your ph to about 3.8 when it starts above 4 is about as far as you want to go .
To take it all the way to 3.65 would push you TA too far up. 9g/l would be about as far as I'd want to go. Farther and you get to the CS game . You will be ok 

It's the classic CV compromise . 

Your TA will drop a little when you do mlf and your ph raise again but you should still be under 4.0 post mlf as CV grapes don't tend to have high levels of Malic.

You can always do a little post mlf tartaric addition to put you back at 3.8.


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## RegionRat (Oct 11, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> You should be fine with that addition
> 
> Yes as I said adding acid to get your ph to about 3.8 when it starts above 4 is about as far as you want to go .
> To take it all the way to 3.65 would push you TA too far up. 9g/l would be about as far as I'd want to go. Farther and you get to the CS game . You will be ok
> ...



I totally under stand now. 

What is the 'CS game' you refer to.

I plan on doing MLF as soon as it ferments dry. I have _Bacchus Malolactic Bacteria Culture_, and some _Opti Malo Plus_. Will that do the trick?

I am sure this will make a good wine. What is fermenting tastes real good.

RR


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## manvsvine (Oct 11, 2013)

Baccus is the same strain as vp31 , it's very reliable and tolerant of adverse conditions. My only caveat is that it is often sat in a local wine shop for a long time , which could impact viability . But if you ordered it online or your local supplier is diligent and has good turnover it should be fine.

I was referring to cold stabilizing , I didn't really want to go there but , often in very hot regions like Spain , Australia and the Central Valley , large amounts of tartaric are added because phs can be very high on uber ripe , irrigated , chemically fertilised bulk market grapes .

Simply put ph is a measure of the effectiveness or sharpness of the acid .
Acid is buffered in a complex solution .
Ph lets you know how buffered . 

In the case of your wine , you had a good level of base acid , in many cv musts I've seen total acid levels as low as 3.9 which lines up with phs over 4.0 
Very common .

So pre fermentation acid additions can be very large , ta can be brought up around 10 g/l or higher to get the ph in range .
Then post mlf the wine is cold stabilized to prevent tartaric instability later , ie in cold storage in the bottle . Because buffering is reduced post mlf , the ph doesn't come up much when cold stabilizing drops the TA . 

But this seesaw technique is best avoided because it hurts overall wine quality and longevity . But if you are selling wine for 3 bucks a bottle , who cares? 

As home winemakers a much more concervative approach is better , hence the 3.8 ph and try to keep TA under 9.0 recommendation.

In your case a TA of 7 and a ph over 4 means your wine has a higher level of natural acid buffering going on . So I'd stay concervative , it's a fine line between getting this right and overshooting .


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## RegionRat (Oct 11, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> Baccus is the same strain as vp31 , it's very reliable and tolerant of adverse conditions. My only caveat is that it is often sat in a local wine shop for a long time , which could impact viability . But if you ordered it online or your local supplier is diligent and has good turnover it should be fine.
> 
> I was referring to cold stabilizing , I didn't really want to go there but , often in very hot regions like Spain , Australia and the Central Valley , large amounts of tartaric are added because phs can be very high on uber ripe , irrigated , chemically fertilised bulk market grapes .
> 
> ...



Again thanks for the detailed respond.

I could tell by my numbers that if I was to get to that 3.x ideal ph then my ta would be in the 11 range. 

If there is so much acid in this must why doesnt it have that' tang' taste when I sample the must? 

The Baccus is fresh, I ordered it online when I came home with the grapes. The MLF part of my wine education came in the spring when I did three Chilean juice buckets. I am confident I can do it again.

If you are suggesting I do a cold stabilization I am putting together a chest freezer with a Johnson control unit as we speak. I have read about others on here doing cold stabilization. I didnt know when or where I was going to but I know sooner or later I will.


Anyway. It is fermenting away and has a nice cap. I have been punching the cap down twice a day. As of this morning sg was 1.085. The color really seems to be developing also.




manvsvine said:


> .... But if you are selling wine for 3 bucks a bottle , who cares? ...



So the secret is out of the bag for 'Three Buck Chuck'

RR


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## manvsvine (Oct 11, 2013)

I think you will be fine just proceeding as you have planned .
CS shouldn't be needed . 

You may want to consider a moderate dose of a finishing tanning as it ages .
Cv grapes often need a little help there in terms of colour stability and mouthfeel . 

You should produce some nice BBQ wine from this . 
But , and this is not bashing , there is a reason cry baby is just about the cheapest grapes money can buy. 

Better grapes from a cooler region equals less intervention and in the right hands , better wine.


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## RegionRat (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks again.

Like I said earlier I will do things different next year. There are other options for fresh grapes here in Chicago. 

The place where I got these grapes is a third generation supplier. All the old timers go there to get their grapes. When I talk to them about how they make wine they dont use hydrometer, k-meta, or sorbate. Just crush and let stit for a fixed amount of time, crush put in a demijon and let it ferment. So I guess this "**** Red" as it is called is what they are used to.

I am in no way a 'wine snob' There is nothing wrong with a BBQ wine. I dont think that is bashing. It is just the way it is. At the fire house there is a saying, 'send sh*t, get sh*t.' I am going to make the best of this. I am confident this wine will be more then drinkable. 

Back to my wine. I dont know what my final ph is going to be. I am thinking in the 3.7 range. That calls for upwards of 70ppm SO2 correct. And you said to add a 'moderate dose of a finishing tanning.' All I have on hand is _LD Carlson Wine Tannin_ Is that considered a 'finishing tannin' If not I will order what you recommend.

RR


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## Tess (Oct 11, 2013)

[email protected]!!! Well said!!


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## manvsvine (Oct 12, 2013)

You can add that tannin durring the ferment 
Check their recommended dose but I expect 1-2 grams in the primary should be about right .


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## RegionRat (Oct 12, 2013)

manvsvine said:


> You can add that tannin durring the ferment
> Check their recommended dose but I expect 1-2 grams in the primary should be about right .



I really wasnt concerned when to add it as much as you used the term 'finishing tannin.' That was the first time I hear that term. I googled it. I am good. 

sg 1.015 will be pressing tomorrow morning.

RR


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## RegionRat (Oct 14, 2013)

*Punching Down the Cap*

I have already pressed but I wanted to put videos up in order they were shot.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6z-VopQdkQ"]Punching Cap Down[/ame]

RR


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## GreginND (Oct 14, 2013)

I can smell it from here!


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