# Do you like your own wine?



## NorCal (Oct 21, 2017)

I find that I don’t like my wine that much. They are drinkable and I could put them among $10-$20 commercial wines blind and they wouldn’t stand out good or bad, but I’m finding that I’m somewhat disappointed with my wines more often than not. I would put the 5 wines that have won silver medals at the CA state fair in this category. 

Perhaps my expectations are too high? A personal problem? An incorrect assumption that my wine should be getting better with each vintage?

How about you, do you like your own wine?


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 21, 2017)

I'm like you. I've made quite a few that I really like. Unfortunately, those are far outnumbered by wines that make me go 'meh'. But most all of them are comparable to commercial wines at more than double the cost of making my own. So I keep researching, testing and trying to improve. A never ending quest, I'm afraid.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 21, 2017)

So far, I have only made grape wine from kits, so take my comments in that context. For a period of time, I was disappointed in my red wines. (The whites have all been quite good.) The red wines were drinkable, but generally speaking I would prefer an $8 bottle of Bogle to nearly all of mine. A bit of KT, a bit of "meh." However, the situation is changing. More and more often, I find I really enjoy my wines. (Not all of them, but a fair fraction of the batches, and even the best only compare to ~$10 or $12 bottles.) I don't know whether I am developing a bit of cellar palate, whether my tweaking has gotten better, or if my wines are now getting sufficient age on them. Probably a little of all of the above.

It was this dissatisfaction that led me to trying fresh grapes this year (which I am still waiting to arrive). We'll see how it goes in a couple of years!


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## meadmaker1 (Oct 21, 2017)

Lol im not alone
I dont know that I dont like my wines as much as, ive had a couple wines that inspired me to make wine and ive not matched them.......yet..... 
By natrure I get a little caught up in what im supposed to make, and loose focus on what I truly like.
But im getting closer. Another 50 or 60 batches and a bunch of years and ill have though.


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## Stressbaby (Oct 21, 2017)

Same here. I can count on one hand the number of wines I've made that I thought were really and truly very good. Most are just OK at best. So after 6 years and about 100 ferments, that is a "very good" rate of about 5%. I mean no offense to anyone when I say this, but that is why I'm a little mystified when folks post 1 year in about all of the great tasting wine they've made. I mostly made garbage the first 2-3 years, but maybe I'm just a slow learner.

I started doing a bit of a thought experiment a while back which has been interesting. Whenever we pour a commercial wine, I stop and pretend it's mine, and build a critique from there. My wines seem to compare a little more favorably since I started doing that.


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## ibglowin (Oct 21, 2017)

I think you just need to be patient here. How old is your oldest bottle now? I have about 6 bottles left from my first big crush back in 2011 and with each bottle I open I am always amazed at the continuing transformation that occurs with more and more time in the bottle. I have some 2012's Cab blends that are just now going to the next level of crazy good. They were harsh for years. Those tannins have now finally softened and integrated nicely and the fruit is coming forward once again. 

3P's of winemaking my friend!


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## bkisel (Oct 21, 2017)

Guess I'm way more easily pleased than you guys. Very seldom am I disappointed in the wines I've made. Especially true of the reds and have even begun to appreciate some of the whites I make for my wife.

Perhaps my expectations are to low?


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## dralarms (Oct 21, 2017)

I like mine much more than store bought. If I couldn't make better wine than store bought I'd hang it up and sell off all my equipment, bottles, and turn my wine shop into an office for my business


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## Ajmassa (Oct 21, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> I don't know whether I am developing a bit of cellar palate, !





Cellar palate? Did you coin that term? I like it regardless. Growing up on homemade its been a constant thing I struggle with. For years I actually preferred a glass of poorly made homemade wine to any other. 
No longer the case, but im still able to enjoy wine from grapes or juice with that "homemade kick" I've always had trouble describing. It's not a bad thing.


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## GaDawg (Oct 21, 2017)

I also like my wine more than commercial $10-20. Maybe y'all have a more sophisticated palate.
Maybe the key to success is low expectations.


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## joeswine (Oct 21, 2017)

*Do You Like your wines*

I'm not sure that's the correct question, should it be, compared to commercial wines, how are mine? The answer should be *they are what I made them. T*he next or what am I not doing enough to make it to the correct profile .Question *should be then if not then what am I doing incorrectly to the process ? *

*Everyone who has followed me on this forum knows *I rarely follow the format so when I make a kit and tweak, I then make it my own. I have people around me who are not afraid of telling me the truth about my product but better then that sending your wines into competitions are a great way to see what is what.

Does anyone think out there that wineries out there doesn't have a bad blend or year and that any winery doesn't tweak there wines in one fashion or another. *So we take each batch on it's own ..then think about the results and what not to do the next time and remember time in wine making is our friend...................*


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## Rtrent2002 (Oct 21, 2017)

I felt the same way after 5 kits. Then I learned to avoid sorbate in my reds, allow them to clear naturally, add a bit of tannin in the primary or secondary, and use the right yeast. Still not making superb wines yet but def better for sure.

Regarding whites, they seem to be more forgiving with what I mentioned above, especially the sweet whites (Riesling, moscato, etc)


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## ibglowin (Oct 21, 2017)

If all you drink is wine from one region then you begin rather quickly to train your palate to just the taste of wines from that one area. Lot of us make wines strictly from the Lodi area of California as they grow an abundance of grapes there and have plenty to send to all points East. If you don't drink wines from other regions now and then your palate will quickly lose the ability to discern differences in terroir. You begin to think this is not what a Cabernet should taste like.

The Dangers of Cellar Palate



Ajmassa5983 said:


> Cellar palate? Did you coin that term? I like it regardless.


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## joeswine (Oct 21, 2017)

*Do You Like your wines*

the above statement by ibg is correct and that's why judging is also different west to east coast...palate,taste, time and base and sanitation are keys to better wine making.so if your wines are so,so you have to ask yourself what am I'm not doing correctly or is my base wine not up to par to start...and for the most part others enjoy my wines more than commercial wines.


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## rustbucket (Oct 21, 2017)

My wines fit a bell curve; a few batches have been terrible, the majority are table wine quality, and a few have been absolutely great. The few I found to be terrible were juice bucket wines, too many variables and I screw them up with my over tweaking. 

I've never made wine from a kit that produced less than table quality wine. While I always hope to make a great wine, table quality is OK as it justifies the time and costs involved in making wine from a kit.

Time is a factor! Wines that I found disappointing in the first year often become much better in the second. Terrible wine never seems to improve. I drink it up to free up the bottles but I never throw it away as I have an aversion to throwing away wine. There was only one wine that I poured down the drain and that was a commercial Cabernet that I picked up at a Virginia winery on an Atlantic States winery tour a few years back. It was absolutely undrinkable. I still don't know why I bought it after the wine tasting.


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## Sage (Oct 21, 2017)

If I didn't like it, I wouldn't make it. Also, less chemical preservatives than commercial.

On the other hand, I'm getting to the age that anything preservative might be helpful.......


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## ceeaton (Oct 21, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> I think you just need to be patient here. How old is your oldest bottle now? I have about 6 bottles left from my first big crush back in 2011 and with each bottle I open I am always amazed at the continuing transformation that occurs with more and more time in the bottle. I have some 2012's Cab blends that are just now going to the next level of crazy good. They were harsh for years. Those tannins have now finally softened and integrated nicely and the fruit is coming forward once again.
> 
> 3P's of winemaking my friend!



I was about to add that. I just wish I had a bottle or two from 2011! I plan on aging a large portion of my wine for at least three years, and hopefully have enough different batches to let some make it to 7 or 8 years. With that in mind I've been going with nomacorcs since I'm noticing even some of my premium real corks don't look like they'd make it that long, let alone 4 or 5 years, and they are only two years old. Might be my corker, not sure at this point.

I do like my wines in general. But my palate is not as sophisticated as some of yours, since I can't normally go out and buy a more expensive bottle of wine. A $25 or $30 bottle is usually a "treat" for me. Can't imagine a $100+, out of my league for now.


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## benchmstr (Oct 21, 2017)

I have been in the competitive bbq world for over 10 years now and I can safely say I hate my bbq...I have a trophy room packed to the ceiling to prove me wrong, but it still doesn't change my opinion...you will always be your own toughest critic!

everyone loves the beer I make, and its won a few awards...and the few batches of wine ive made are always fast to go...BUT! I AM STILL MY OWN TOUGHEST CRITIC!

the bench


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## lilvixen (Oct 21, 2017)

This thread is so timely! I'm still only doing kits, but I'm dealing with the same question. I racked 3 red kits yesterday - CC Showcase and WE LE - ranging from 6 weeks to 6 months from pitch, and they all have a weird flavor that I've never tasted before in a commercial wine, and I'm really bothered by it. I've been hashing over everything to try and figure out what it is:

- Skins: 2 skins kits, 1 no skins, so it's not this.
- Water: I'm using bottled spring water, so it shouldn't be this.
- Yeast: I used the kit yeast (RC212), BM4x4, and D254.
- Temperatures: After fermentation, they haven't gotten above 75*.
- Sorbate: I'm didn't use it in any of these.
- Clarifiers: *Maybe.* My notes say there was no weird taste in the youngest one before I added the clarifiers. I'm racking a kit out of EM today, and I'm going to skip the clarifiers to test out the theory.

As of yesterday, I decided to hold off making any more red wine kits beyond the two I have on-deck/pre-ordered until everything I've made thus far ages long enough to hopefully lose the weird flavor and taste good. As it is, making wine is only slightly cheaper than buying commercial wine I enjoy, so the novelty is fading.

However, I will say that I prefer the white wine kits I've made to commercial, so I won't give up the hobby, but I may only make whites and buy reds. We'll see what happens with age and the clarifier experiment.


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## Stressbaby (Oct 21, 2017)

@lilvixen, sounds like "kit taste" (KT). Google it.

I think if you make wine from kits and can solve for KT (or if you are insensitive to it) then you can probably produce much more consistent wines. 

Personally I find the production of wine "from scratch" to be much more rewarding, even given my "miss" rate, than making wine from a kit. With kits, it feels as if all of the work has been done for me.

@Norcal, @Boatboy24, @meadmaker1, are you by chance an INTJ?


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## richmke (Oct 21, 2017)

I buy the top of the line kits and let them age at least 2 years. I prefer them to the $10-$30 commercial wine. I must admit that I can't appreciate the $50+ wines I've had the pleasure of drinking (except for the 40 year old Taylor port).


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## Brian55 (Oct 21, 2017)

Ours have been usually good, sometimes meh, but always better than what I could buy at the store for the same price it costs to make our own. As has been stated above, time is key. Our results have improved drastically with time and a few tweaks here and there.


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## NorCal (Oct 21, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> I think you just need to be patient here. How old is your oldest bottle now? I have about 6 bottles left from my first big crush back in 2011 and with each bottle I open I am always amazed at the continuing transformation that occurs with more and more time in the bottle. I have some 2012's Cab blends that are just now going to the next level of crazy good. They were harsh for years. Those tannins have now finally softened and integrated nicely and the fruit is coming forward once again.
> 
> 3P's of winemaking my friend!



I suspect that there is some truth to this. First wine was 2013, few bottles remain, same with the 2014’s. I have around 5 cases of 2015 and perhaps 30 cases of 2016. The 2016’s will definitely get some age on them and yes, I’m somewhat disappointed with the Grenache, Syrah, Rhone blend. The fruit was fantastic that year too, I really feel it should be so much better than it is. I am hoping time does some magic on it. On the other hand, my low brix 2016 Cab Franc is really quite nice and proud to share it.


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## vacuumpumpman (Oct 21, 2017)

I like my wine alot better than store bought - 

My wife can drink my wine without getting massive headaches and other known issues , when drinking commercial wines. 

I keep her happy and I am happy also


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## joeswine (Oct 21, 2017)

Hay, Steve good to hear from you.


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## heatherd (Oct 21, 2017)

I like my wines. That said, I will taste commercial wines and find that they are bone dry, super tannic, and very oaky, and I have to work harder to get those characteristics in mine.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 21, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> If all you drink is wine from one region then you begin rather quickly to train your palate to just the taste of wines from that one area. Lot of us make wines strictly from the Lodi area of California as they grow an abundance of grapes there and have plenty to send to all points East. If you don't drink wines from other regions now and then your palate will quickly lose the ability to discern differences in terroir. You begin to think this is not what a Cabernet should taste like.
> 
> The Dangers of Cellar Palate



Thanks for sharing this. Very informative. I've been actively trying to expand my wine purchases. Went to a tasting today with a French winemaker Domaine Magellan. Having a pro talk you thru a tasting is worth its weight in gold for me. 
I find I need to have almost 2 separate palates: one for the process of making and one for my finished products/commercial. The 'cellar palate' can give me tunnel vision, tho I need it to be comfortable knowing what to expect from young juice vs grape wines and making sure they are on the right path. 
Evaluating a finished product is tough for me on the other hand. When I've walked away from it for a while and revisit in 6 months or so I get a true taste. For better or for worse. More better I'd say. Since a bottle is a living thing constantly changing and maturing. 
The kits are tough for me too. I think I've got a subconscious bias against them. And even when I enjoy the wine I still can't shake the thought of it being good--for a kit wine. To me there's big taste differences between kits/grapes/juice pails during the making process. I actively try and eliminate it, But it can still cloud my final judgement unfortunately. Like Joeswine said, entering in contests is great way to really know for sure.


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## Smok1 (Oct 21, 2017)

Ive been drinking homemade wine since i was probly 12 years old my dad would let me have a glass with dinner on sunday, i hadnt even tryed a commercial wine till i was 18 and my palate at that point couldnt tell the difference, i like my homemade wine, although i do still buy commercial wines as well, i like them both, i like wine


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## sour_grapes (Oct 21, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> @Norcal, @Boatboy24, @meadmaker1, are you by chance an INTJ?



You didn't ask me, but I am an INTP. Screaming INTP.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 21, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Went to a tasting today with a French winemaker Domaine Magellan. Having a pro talk you thru a tasting is worth its weight in gold for me.



Which raises the question: How much does the talk of a pro _weigh_?


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## Ajmassa (Oct 21, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Which raises the question: How much does a pro's talk _weigh_?





Lol. I'd really enjoy sharing a few glasses of wine with you one day. You crack me up. But just not your wine since not even the winemaker likes it.


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## vacuumpumpman (Oct 22, 2017)

joeswine said:


> Hay, Steve good to hear from you.



Hi Joe !

Been busy with family vacation at Glacier - then hand surgery AGAIN ! 
Was out of comission for several weeks - 

But I still and try and post on occasion - hopefully more now


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## Stressbaby (Oct 22, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> You didn't ask me, but I am an INTP. Screaming INTP.



Sorry, didn't mean to exclude you Paul. I'm INTJ so I know that type better, it looks like INTPs could be hard on their own wine as well.


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## joeswine (Oct 22, 2017)

Not much, but I've learned to listen and make my own determination,I've learnt the difference between kits,juice and grapes are in the base it self crushed juice,fresh juice or a kit high end or low the process is basically the same,the volume will and is different from winery to winery from cellar to cellar ,the end result will always be different.. don't try to over think the process or the results just enjoy the crafty and learn from each batch and above all have fun at doing it and as always say "think outside the box"


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## Johnd (Oct 22, 2017)

NorCal said:


> I find that I don’t like my wine that much. They are drinkable and I could put them among $10-$20 commercial wines blind and they wouldn’t stand out good or bad, but I’m finding that I’m somewhat disappointed with my wines more often than not. I would put the 5 wines that have won silver medals at the CA state fair in this category.
> 
> Perhaps my expectations are too high? A personal problem? An incorrect assumption that my wine should be getting better with each vintage?
> 
> How about you, do you like your own wine?



I feel similarly about my efforts to date. I’ve started and deleted several responses on this topic, as my evaluation of my grape wine is similar to yours, and have been working for some time to reconcile those thoughts with reality and empirical evidence. 

First, reality. I considered the description of the WA rating system below, coupled with knowledge of grapes and winemaking. I normally buy and consume wines in the 90-95 & 96-100 categories, occasionally high 80’s. Truly exceptional, outstanding wines have no flaws in their production and can only be made from the very best fruit. I am not purchasing this fruit, are you? For example, Beckstoffer To Kalon Cab, Pesenti Petit Syrah, Hayne Zinfandel aren’t available to purchase, only grapes of superior quality produce these 90-100 wines. If you’re not growing or buying the best fruit, the odds of producing wine like this is slim. A well made wine, from medium to good quality fruit, probably produces a wine in the 75-85 range, to expect more, as you inferred, may be “high expectations”. 

Now, empirical evidence. Go buy 3 wines that are the same varietal or blend as yours, buy a 75, 85, and something in the 90’s, same vintage as yours, get some reasonably experienced wine drinkers together and do a blind tasting. See where you stack up, I’m betting you’ll fare well in tasting. Based on my taste testing, I’m producing 80’s, and believe to be doing a good job with the raw materials I have access to. 

I don’t compare my wines to the big boys I buy, nor do I expect them to compare, but I enjoy them nonetheless. You can’t expect to win a steak cooking competition when you are using USDA Choice, and your competition is using Wagyu beef. 

Is any winery that’s buying fruit from the same place you are making truly exceptional wine? If there are some, then maybe you do have room to improve. 

Seems to me that your wine is quite good, as it wins awards, your process is quite squared away, and well coupled with knowledge and experience. 

96-100:
An extraordinary wine of profound and complex character displaying all the attributes expected of a classic wine of its variety. Wines of this caliber are worth a special effort to find, purchase, and consume.

90 - 95:
An outstanding wine of exceptional complexity and character. In short, these are terrific wines.

80 - 89:
A barely above average to very good wine displaying various degrees of finesse and flavor as well as character with no noticeable flaws.

70 - 79:
An average wine with little distinction except that it is a soundly made. In essence, a straightforward, innocuous wine.

60 - 69:
A below average wine containing noticeable deficiencies, such as excessive acidity and/or tannin, an absence of flavor, or possibly dirty aromas or flavors.

50 - 59:
A wine deemed to be unacceptable.


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## balatonwine (Oct 22, 2017)

Yes, I like my own wine.

But it took years.

And, as already said by others, fruit quality is the key. And I grow my own grapes. So it really took me years to first learn how to grow high quality fruit. And during that time my cellar time was spent learning the "art" of wine making. Kits, buying fruit, using this tool and that measuring device are all well and good, but relying on those alone to make a great wine is like expecting painting by numbers to create a masterpiece. 

Rather, I see wine making as both a modern science and an ancient art. 

The science part one can buy from Amazon. The art part one needs to spend labor, and years, to acquire. Hopefully, it is a labor of love.


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## Cibb (Oct 22, 2017)

I've been pleased with my wine to be honest.

I wasn't at first with the reds but again age is the key factor and once I learned that lesson I've been very pleased with my wines.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 22, 2017)

Being as new as I am I probably have no business posting here. I've only bottled one batch of a cheap 10l malbec kit. My only expectation at this point is I want it not to suck. One thing that was not mentioned and I think overlooked is the difference between commercial and artisan wines. The large commercial wineries that make tens of thousands of cases a year don't necessarily grow or get their grapes from the same source. Although quality is not completely overlooked, their main emphisis is on quantity and production and the necessity to produce a wine similar to the previous years, there are exceptions of course. Getting to cellar palate, my interest in wine started with local Virginia wines and they are what I have grown to enjoy. I consider these Artisan Wines and I think is more inline with what we should make. I've been fortunate enough to get to know two different Winemakers both of which have different approaches to making wine. One of them makes wine for 5 different wineries and even the same varietal is different depending on which winery he is making it for. He'll innoculate the same grapes using 2 or more different yeasts for a better flavor or nose profile for the different wineries. Although science is a large part of it he for the most part uses his sense of taste and smell in choosing the proper wines to blend. He even uses the wines from the different wineries to blend if he feels it will make a better wine. Although I have yet to blend, I think, especially with wine kits we are limiting our ability to produce a better wine. Additionally with kits and the general consencise MLF should or cannot be done is making the harsher Malic Acids to be dominant over the softer Lactic and why most people say white kits are better then reds. Again, these are just observations with no experience to back it up. I may fall into the category of having low expections but I don't feel any of my 10 young wines are that bad.


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## pgentile (Oct 22, 2017)

NorCal said:


> Perhaps my expectations are too high? A personal problem? An incorrect assumption that my wine should be getting better with each vintage?
> 
> How about you, do you like your own wine?



First not sure if expectation should be each vintage will get better. If each vintage has been made with superior product to the previous then yes. Your skills are most likely getting better with each vintage, which should diminish swings. Even the best vineyards/wineries have dips and valleys in their wines. My point of view is some vintages will be better than others and most will get better with age, what can I do to guide each vintage to it's best potential(still a long way from this myself). 

I like my wine and I don't. I've only been making wine 4 years now, started with frozen concentrates. The first thing that impressed me was that I could make a drinkable wine from many sources. Drinkable that is, not necessarily good, but drinkable. None of my wines have aged much of course. many don't last long enough to age.

Now and prior to my my wine making days, I have tried everything commercially from 2 buck chuck to nice Bordeaux's, Barolo's, etc, and from every country(most) and grape variety. Too cheap to buy anything over a $100 per bottle, so I have no gauge for high end. Box wines, yellowtail, Barefoot and other low end wines, I find undrinkable compared to wines above $15 - 20 and don't buy them. 

Concentrate/cheap kits: Drinkable, but don't like.

High end kits(Eclipse): Very drinkable, like more as they age.

Fruit wines: Drinkable, some I have liked others I have not.

Juice buckets: Drinkable, most have been good and I like.

All grape: More drinkable than all the above at every stage. Like very much. Stands up to commercial wines I like. 

I had a Petite Syrah that hit two years old in Sept and it was quite good. Last years Zin is very good at 1 year. This years Zin/Cab/PS blend is good out of the gate(Hope I can demonstrate the strength to let this age).

So yes I like my wine and I don't, it depends on what it is and the source.


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## Johnd (Oct 22, 2017)

@mainshipfred - I agree with you about kit wines, they do make nice, drinkable wines, some better than others. My expectations were similar to yours in my early days, and was amazed that with little sophistication, knowledge, or effort, I could make a good looking wine at home that would be enjoyable and not kill me. A great product for sure!!!

As for the “big” wineries, the Yellowtails and Mondavi’s of the wine world, their product is a conscious choice of market, and they produce the way that they do intentionally, with volume and consistency in mind. Despite the mega production, Mondavi knows how to produce a stud wine, see their 2014 offering below, from the To Kalon Vineyard, coincidence???.......I think not. You pay through the nose for those grapes, the price reflects it!! It’s definitely not their only exceptional effort, but it serves a different market, and they’re not alone. 

There are teeny tiny wineries navigating the grape buying market and buying exceptional grapes and making exceptional wine, there’s one common thread, exceptional fruit. Look at the second shot, one of two pages of the wines made from To Kalon & Beckstoffer To Kalon in 2014, pretty impressive, the worst is a 92. I don’t mean to be riding To Kalon or California, there are many other producers of superior fruit in other places, WA, OR, France, Italy, the list goes on.

In the end, great wines come from great fruit, regardless of where it’s grown. Regardless of scores, ratings, and critical reviews, we all get to like what we want to and enjoy it regardless of what anyone else thinks, so drink up, it’s Sunday!


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## mainshipfred (Oct 22, 2017)

John, as I said there are exceptions and those wines are out of my league. Maybe I strayed from my point a bit. What I was referring to was whether it's a kit, bucket or grapes we should not be so lineal in our approach. A single varietal with perhaps a single yeast has to lack complexity of blends and/or multiple yeasts characteristics.


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## montanaWineGuy (Oct 22, 2017)

My blueberry wine is incredible. Apple is very good, Rhubarb is drinkable.


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## Johnd (Oct 22, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> John, as I said there are exceptions and those wines are out of my league. Maybe I strayed from my point a bit. What I was referring to was whether it's a kit, bucket or grapes we should not be so lineal in our approach. A single varietal with perhaps a single yeast has to lack complexity of blends and/or multiple yeasts characteristics.



I don’t disagree with what you say, but perhaps you’re missing my point. The OP was talking about his grape wines, and his appreciation level of his product. I’m simply stating that judging what we make against the best of the best is an unfair field of play, I believe, if that is the evaluation environment. 

One can start with mid quality fruit, mix yeasts, blend, and make it the best it can be, and it won’t compete with the top quality fruit, which is also fermented and blended masterfully. 

Personally, I like my wines and enjoy sharing them. I wish they were 95’s, but they’re not. Are they as good as they could be? Don’t know, but that’s why I keep on trying, experimenting, different techniques, different barrels, etc.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 22, 2017)

Totally agree, the best of the best is an unfairfield of play


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## Stressbaby (Oct 22, 2017)

I thought of this thread today as I watched a documentary called "Decanted" on Netflix. It looked at the 2015 growing year in select Napa wineries. In one scene they were running the grapes on a conveyor belt and the entire team was there picking out bad fruit, one berry at a time.

Maybe I'm going to have to start doing that.


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## CabSauv (Oct 22, 2017)

I think the best term here is handicap, as in golf. The home winemaker has a higher handicap compared to wineries that shoot par or below because wineries have the equipment, experience, product, and time. So essentially I agree that we're not on the same level playing field as the pros, but that's ok. We don't need to be.

I say this only having almost completed 2 kits , but really the same expectation should be said for grape wines. If our [the home winemaker's] goal is to make a 90+ point wine at home, I think it means our expectations are too high. Run on sentence impending: Sure you can continue to gain experience, add more tools to your tool belt, get better equipment and product to improve your wine, but the main purpose of home wine making, at least for me, is to have fun and make a decent every day wine that I have on hand to drink or share that I don't have to purchase from the store. I still expect to buy the $50-$150 bottle of wine on occasion, and that's ok.


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## heatherd (Oct 22, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> You didn't ask me, but I am an INTP. Screaming INTP.



Not a big surprise there, sour grapes. Mine is INFJ-T.


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## AZMDTed (Oct 22, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> You didn't ask me, but I am an INTP. Screaming INTP.



Me too, and the older I get the more I realize the consequences of it.


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## ceeaton (Oct 22, 2017)

I agree with @Johnd . I believe that you can't make a great/good wine without quality ingredients (same for food). My goal is to learn how to maintain the quality of the raw ingredients throughout the process by "staying out of the way" with as little tinkering as possible. So far I think it is working well, just might have to improve my ingredient quality, now that I'm not messing up my batches with my tinkering (which is fun and hard not to do).


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## Bodenski (Oct 22, 2017)

I record music as a hobby. I used to play in a church band, and I recorded all the individual tracks a couple of times a month so I could try and mix them. I always wanted to hear what we sounded like from the listeners perspective, which is very different than the stage monitoring mix. For a good year my wife would always tell me “you sound better live than you sound on the recording.” I kept leRning about mixing and then one day my wife finally said “that probably sounds a little better than you do live.” I was thrilled that day! But it took a lot of practice to get to that point. 

I think I’ve made about 20 batches of different things in the year I’ve been making wines/meads. I have one batch I think is outstanding, one batch that i’m afraid i’ll End up tossing some day, and the rest fall in the middle. I hope with time I’ll notice more of my batches improve. (Both the ones I’m letting age and the new ones I’m making.). I am doing primarily country wines and meads so I don’t have a lot of commercial samples to compare them to. In a year I’ll have a better idea on how my wine from juice buckets will end up. All I know right now is that it is much easier to grab a bottle of wine from Walmart than to make my own, so I have focused on making things that I can’t easily buy. Maybe that helps keep me from making comparisons!


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## JohnT (Oct 23, 2017)

I am really digging this thread. 

If it is OK with everyone, I would like to take a bit of a different approach to this topic.. 

If you find your wine lacking, determine what exactly it is that you do not like and improve upon it next time. There is always a lesson to learn and something that can be done differently to improve your future winemaking process.

It is all a matter of the choices you make.

If you end up with inferior grapes, then choose a different variety or, perhaps, a different supplier next time. If you think your wine is flat, then, perhaps adjust the amount, type, and exposure to oak, or even the duration of the maceration process. How about doing acid trials? (if you are not already doing so). There are literally hundreds of decisions to make throughout the wine making process. 

I really hope that this does not offend anyone, but if you do not like the wine you make, then do something about it. Change your process and/or decisions that you make to improve your wine in the future. Matticulous record keeping will help you in doing this.

It took me years to get to the point where I love my wine. Now, I can compare most of my varietals to much more expensive wines. Just recently (at pressing) we started off with a Stag's Leap Artemis (a $50 bottle) and found it much less preferable to all of our 2016 vintages. 

Heck, a year ago we did a blind taste test between my Tuscan blend and an $80 bottle of Brunello. The wine steward tasted both and actually chose mine as the expensive bottle. Nope, this wine costs $4.31 (including cork and bottle).

Also, cellar pallet is real. Make it a point to drink a variety of different wines from a variety of different sources. Go winery hopping every now and then! 

Winemaking is a journey to the perfect bottle of wine and the growth of talent along the way. 

Ok, Getting off the soapbox now...


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## dralarms (Oct 23, 2017)

JohnT said:


> I am really digging this thread.
> 
> If it is OK with everyone, I would like to take a bit of a different approach to this topic..
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## Donz (Oct 24, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> I thought of this thread today as I watched a documentary called "Decanted" on Netflix. It looked at the 2015 growing year in select Napa wineries. In one scene they were running the grapes on a conveyor belt and the entire team was there picking out bad fruit, one berry at a time.
> 
> Maybe I'm going to have to start doing that.


 
I've watched Decanted quite a few times. Yes the serious wineries completely destem and go through the fruit on a conveyor process. Way too much work if you are a home winemaker doing big quantity.


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## wineforfun (Oct 24, 2017)

Well, this depends. 
My fruit wines I like very much. I have them down just the way I like them. I would put my blueberry, strawberry, etc. up against most commercially I have tasted.
As far as my grape wines (I have only made 3 high end kits and 2 low end kits), I like them as much as any $20 bottle I have had. Now, if I compare them to say a $50-$60 bottle, then probably not, but then again, in my mind, they weren't meant to be a $50 bottle of wine.

With all that said, @norcal, you still have one of the coolest labels ever.


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## NorCal (Oct 24, 2017)

Donz said:


> I've watched Decanted quite a few times. Yes the serious wineries completely destem and go through the fruit on a conveyor process. Way too much work if you are a home winemaker doing big quantity.





Oh? Two tons worth this crush.


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## JohnT (Oct 25, 2017)

Donz said:


> Way too much work if you are a home winemaker doing big quantity.


 
We sort through our grapes before and after destemming. 

I have a whole crew of folks helping to sort grapes. We pull out all bad fruit, leaves, and other debris before crushing, and then any residual stems left that made it through the CD.

I remember once, years ago, one of the folks sorting found a grape harvest knife in one crate. I hate to think what that would have done to the CD if we simply dumped our grapes into the hopper.

You say that you make a big quantity. I am willing to bet that you share a large portion of that wine with others. Well, I would think that they should return the favor by helping to sort your grapes. Many hands make light work..


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## Stressbaby (Oct 25, 2017)

Have you seen the movie? They are pulling individual berries off of the conveyor belt after destemming. If you can do that you have a lot more time/friends/resources than I do.


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## tjgaul (Oct 25, 2017)

I've only been at this for about 18 months and I only make kits and fruit wine, but I've been pleased with just about everything I've made so far. The whites have been comparable to commercial $10-$20 bottles and drink well early (with the exception of the Riesling which improved with age). My whole family prefers my Gewurztraminers to most commercial versions and we live in the Finger Lakes where this grape excels. I only have a few reds in the bottle, but they are decent and definitely getting better with time. Most of what is still in the carboys are now high end kits (Showcase/RJS RQ/Eclipse) which will take some time, but currently show great potential. Personally, I have been very pleasantly surprised at how good my home wine has turned out. I am only disappointed when I open a bottle of something really good, like Earthquake Zin or BV Cab Sauv and try to compare my wine to that. Especially since what I have "finished" to compare to are all 10-12L kits with no significant adders. 

I think that when my work in progress gets in the bottle and grows up a little it may well be giving the $25-$30 commercial wines a run for their money. I sure hope I am repeating that line in 2-3 years!


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## Smok1 (Oct 25, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> Have you seen the movie? They are pulling individual berries off of the conveyor belt after destemming. If you can do that you have a lot more time/friends/resources than I do.



They probly just did that for the movie, as soon as the cameras stopped rolling they all walked away from that conveyor belt grabbed a glass of wine


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## AZMDTed (Oct 25, 2017)

Fortunately I am not blessed/cursed with a wine connoisseurs palate. I'll never be able to describe wines like you see on TV or in their advertising. But what that means for me is that I can like what I like, and dislike what I don't, without having to worry about nuances that may sway others with better tasting skills.

As such, I have thoroughly enjoyed most of my wine and think it's on par and often better than the commercial quality I would normally buy for daily drinking. My WE Eclipse Chardonnays and Gewürztraminers have been thoroughly enjoyed by everyone who has had them, and that includes a wedding I took the G-miner to in the NY Finger Lakes area. Some of my early kits were 12L ones when I bought into the idea that they made good early drinkers. I wouldn't buy them again, but they got the job done. My 18L Red kits with skins have almost all been very good, to my taste. What I'm enjoying most about them is tasting them age over the years and seeing how much better they get with time. Now that I'm three years into this hobby my advice would be not to judge high end kits until you've tasted them with at least 2 years of age.

A year ago my plan was to get enough to start drinking them at 18 months. Well, I'm there, but now that I have some up to 3 years I see how much better they have become after 18 months and so I find myself with a gap. The improvement is non-linear with time between 18 months and 3 years. I want to let them age to at least 2 years now, and soon no doubt I'll be wanting 3 years. Time to kick my kit making into high gear again to have enough stock to get to that point.

I'm glad I don't have a nuanced palate. I can't taste any KT and I couldn't tell you what type of berry flavor finishes any wine. Heck I probably couldn't even tell if it was a berry flavor in the first place. But my wife and I know what we like and so far my kits have been good enough, and often well beyond that, for us.

Taste in general, and wine tasting in particular, is highly individualized so there is no right or wrong. But I'm fortunate to able to say, Yes, I like the wine I make.


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## Smok1 (Oct 25, 2017)

AZMDTed said:


> Fortunately I am not blessed/cursed with a wine connoisseurs palate. I'll never be able to describe wines like you see on TV or in their advertising.



Haha ive been blessed/cursed with the same palate, we actually try and do blind taste tests quite often to see if we can decifer which wine is which, basically at this point i can tell you if its been oaked or not and if its a bold red vs a light red.


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## Kraffty (Oct 25, 2017)

Good Thread. I started making wine in 2012 from kits. I progressed to grapes and juice in 2014 and now I'm doing just grapes. I'm just starting to get a clue about how much I really need to learn about the process itself and expect that to continue. I also expect my wine to continue to improve as I learn more. I also agree most of us are very critical of ourselves.

I truly enjoy about 50% of what I have on the shelf now but try not to compare it to commercial wine. My main reason for avoiding that comparison hasn't been mentioned here yet BUT I can buy 6 bottles of Merlot (for example) either in similar price range or in a wide price range and would probably really like 2 or 3 of the bottles, find 1 or 2 acceptable and find 1 or 2 terrible. We need to remember that we've all had $20-50.00 bottles of wine that can leave you wondering what other people see in them. If you're comparing your wine to a tried and true brand you already like you'll probably have a tough time.

@JohnT remarks about really working at what you don't like about your wine makes perfect since. I always seem to be shy on acid and tannins and have been working at stepping that up a little at a time. Time will tell.
Mike


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## ibglowin (Oct 25, 2017)

So here is a pretty tried and true test to see if a wine is well made and just what type of longevity it has in store for it. This is especially useful for young wines to see how they will hold up over time. Its simple. Lots of variations on the scheme but open a bottle of one of your wines that is young but maybe you are still not sure about. Drink a glass the night you open it. Stuff the cork back in it and place the wine back in the cellar (not the refrigerator unless its a wine fridge). Next night, repeat by pouring another glass and stick the cork back into in. Make sure and take notes each night. A well made wine will improve from that first glass to last. It will keep expanding and the tannins will soften little by little. If you like what you have on night 3 of the trial you are going to like what this wine grows up to be over time without a doubt. 

I just did this with a bottle of my 2013 Tres Rojo's red made from fresh grapes from the Lodi AVA. Opened a bottle mid week and had not one but two glasses with dinner, then stuffed the cork back in it and back into the cellar. The wine on the first night with dinner was good but not out of this world great. Still a little harsh but still improving and showing lots of promise. Well I forgot about that bottle until Sunday so it was in the cellar half empty for 4 days when I went in to look for something for dinner and saw it back in the corner. I was smoking a Tri tip on the Weber and thought that would be a perfect wine to sip on while grilling.

In short the wine not only held up incredibly well, it was leaps and bounds better than the first night. Was it perfect? No! This process exposed that I had added a little too much oak along the way. This is not very evident when the bottle is first opened as it is masked by the tannins etc. 

Overall the wine held up incredibly well however and was much better on day 4 than on day 1. Good thing because I have about 100 bottles left of that wine!


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## bkisel (Oct 25, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> So here is a ...



Mike, I've noticed that. I think the same improvement can be enjoyed with the very first glass if it has been aeratored while pouring. Is the same kind of thing happening to the wine? [This is for my reds, haven't tried it for any whites.]


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## ibglowin (Oct 25, 2017)

You bet, your adding air and starting the process of oxidation which when controlled is what makes a red wine age and improve over time. Whites, not so much!



bkisel said:


> Mike, I've noticed that. I think the same improvement can be enjoyed with the very first glass if it has been aeratored while pouring. Is the same kind of thing happening to the wine? [This is for my reds, haven't tried it for any whites.]


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## Donz (Oct 25, 2017)

You say that you make a big quantity. I am willing to bet that you share a large portion of that wine with others. Well, I would think that they should return the favor by helping to sort your grapes. Many hands make light work..[/QUOTE]


Here is the thing, we sort the grapes before putting them in the destemmer and take out any leaves, bad clusters etc. however - we do not do as they do in decanted. Have a look at how they do it... Literally check every berry it's ridiculous. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cICs3EGoeQs[/ame]


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## Donz (Oct 25, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> Have you seen the movie? They are pulling individual berries off of the conveyor belt after destemming. If you can do that you have a lot more time/friends/resources than I do.


 
Exactly what I was thinking. It's like they check every single berry.


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## stickman (Oct 25, 2017)

I've been making wine for 27yrs and I like what I make now, but I've made plenty of less than desirable wine in the past. Everyone has to decide what style of wine they like, and then determine what winemaking decisions drive that style. I've used different grape sources, various maceration lengths, different yeasts, carboys, and oak barrels etc., and the challenge is making the decisions on the fly as the fruit is different every season. The variables are endless and it can take years to see the results, but it really is a pleasure to open a bottle and understand how it has evolved (good or bad, hopefully good) throughout the years.


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## meadmaker1 (Oct 28, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> @Norcal, @Boatboy24, @meadmaker1, are you by chance an INTJ?



I dont see how I can deny it.


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## rustbucket (Oct 29, 2017)

At the risk of appearing ignorant, not much of a risk in my case, what does INTJ mean?


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## GreenEnvy22 (Oct 29, 2017)

I love the muscat we make from our backyard grapes. I made a Riesling in 2015 which wasn't my favourite but has improved with time.
Just bottled 2016 dornfelder and really like that.

I made like 6 or 7 wines this year so next year I'll have a better idea of how I like what I make.


I've made 3 beers, liked 2 didn't like 1.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 29, 2017)

rustbucket said:


> At the risk of appearing ignorant, not much of a risk in my case, what does INTJ mean?



There is an attempt to categorize types of personalities along 4 different characteristics, or "axes." This is called the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator.

Each axis ranges along a spectrum between two extremes, and the extrema are labeled with letters. So the "I" in INTJ means "Introverted," as opposed to a type starting with "E" for "Extroverted." The axes are not "orthogonal," however, and there is a lot of gobbledy-gook I don't understand about the supposed interplay between these axes. You can read about the typical characteristics of INTJ here, for example

It's fun and interesting, and I believe there is a lot of truth in it, but it is not exactly a scientific test with a definite outcome.


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## rustbucket (Oct 29, 2017)

Thanks for taking the time to update me, Paul. In 1980, I participated in a program at the bank where I worked that tested us using the Meyers-Briggs scale. As I recall, I came out as introverted, but highly adaptable, I didn't realize that the group here was referring to that scale and am surprised that psychologist haven't come up with a newer measure over the intervening years.


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## lilvixen (Oct 30, 2017)

I don't believe this part from the INTJ page:



> According to Myers-Briggs the INTJ represents "The Mastermind". INTJs are one of the rarest of the 16 psychological types and account for approximately 2% of the population. Women of this personality type are especially rare, forming just 0.8% of the population.



If it's true, I have found the niche in the work world and online forums where INTJs congregate. I'm a woman INTJ with fellow INTJ friends and coworkers, my husband works in a bullpen office with five INTJs (he's the only non-INTJ in the room), and I'm on another forum community where this topic came up, and the most common type was INTJ, and it's skewed towards women (60/40 maybe? 70/30? I don't know).

However, I do agree with the described characteristics of an INTJ.


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## lilvixen (Oct 30, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> So here is a pretty tried and true test to see if a wine is well made and just what type of longevity it has in store for it. This is especially useful for young wines to see how they will hold up over time. Its simple. Lots of variations on the scheme but open a bottle of one of your wines that is young but maybe you are still not sure about. Drink a glass the night you open it. Stuff the cork back in it and place the wine back in the cellar (not the refrigerator unless its a wine fridge). Next night, repeat by pouring another glass and stick the cork back into in. Make sure and take notes each night. A well made wine will improve from that first glass to last. It will keep expanding and the tannins will soften little by little. If you like what you have on night 3 of the trial you are going to like what this wine grows up to be over time without a doubt.



I tried this with a midlevel Malbec that I made last year, which has the same weird taste I don't like, and the weird taste did go away, so I have hope for red wine batches that are sitting in carboys. Now I just need to exercise patience and let it all age long enough for the flavor to dissipate. We'll see how well I do.

Edited to add: Although the weird taste was gone, I wouldn't buy the Malbec again if it were a commercial wine, but I could detect the oak and tannin I added, so that was neat.


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## dcbrown73 (Oct 30, 2017)

So far the best wine I believe I've made was a off-dry Washington Riesling. Though it's definitely not in the class of some really good Reislings I've had. Though it makes me smile every time I open one and have received a lot of positive reactions to it at our wine tastings. (and not just them being nice as they've had some of my other wines with that type of reaction)

That said, I have a few wines that have a good flavor, but lack the body, creaminess, perfect acidity, etc.

Though like many. Some are just "ok". I had really high hopes for my Eclipse Barossa Valley Shiraz as I've had so many Barossa Valley Shiraz that are just fantastic. Clearly my winemaking skills are lacking at producing those types of characteristics within wine. I need to go to a Wagner Winemaking Class! It seems like everyone in their family has those skills!


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## sour_grapes (Oct 30, 2017)

lilvixen said:


> I don't believe this part from the INTJ page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmmm, but wouldn't an INTJ, instead of dismissing the assertion based on anecdotal evidence, start calculating the likelihood that certain forums and workplaces disproportionately attract certain personality types, skewing the statistics compared to a random draw?   

(Of course, I do see that you have included that scenario as an alternate explanation. Just having fun with our INTx characters.)


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## lilvixen (Oct 30, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Hmmm, but wouldn't an INTJ, instead of dismissing the assertion based on anecdotal evidence, start calculating the likelihood that certain forums and workplaces disproportionately attract certain personality types, skewing the statistics compared to a random draw?
> 
> (Of course, I do see that you have included that scenario as an alternate explanation. Just having fun with our INTx characters.)



You'd get a kick out of my [unscientific, because it'd be creepy if I interrogated everyone] attempt to wrestle with hubby's workplace figures. How can a room of 6 software engineers have 5 INTJs and 1 ESFJ?! That defies logic and holds no semblance to a random sample. Granted, the people in marketing and sales are mostly Exxx's, and they probably should be. 

Hubby is the newest addition to his work group, and I told him that he's comfortable with all the INTJs because I've taught him how to deal with me 

Engineering disciplines do play to those with analytic skills, so it makes sense for people to congregate into what they do well. It also makes sense for me to gravitate towards forum communities with like-minded people and avoid the social venues of one-uppers and trolls, because those places aren't having rational, experimental, helpful conversations that aid me in finding efficiency in my own endeavors and processes, and thus, are a waste of my time and energy. (I say knowing that it could be construed as cold, but whatever, because I don't have to tap into the Feelings side in a forum post about my INTJness.)


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## Steve_M (Oct 31, 2017)

I am giving my wine 4 out of 10 right now. If I allow a bottle to open for a good deal of time it then gets a 7.


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## balatonwine (Oct 31, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Hmmm, but wouldn't an INTJ, instead of dismissing the assertion based on anecdotal evidence, start calculating the likelihood that certain forums and workplaces disproportionately attract certain personality types, skewing the statistics compared to a random draw?



As an INTP type, I would wonder if maybe the data for your calculations may be biased or otherwise not reliable...... 

_For those that do not get the joke.... from the above link: INTPs are often haunted by a fear of failure, causing them to rethink solutions many times and second-guess themselves. In their mind, they may have overlooked a bit of crucial data, and there may very well be another equally plausible solution._


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## lilvixen (Oct 31, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> As an INTP type, I would wonder if maybe the data for your calculations may be biased or otherwise not reliable......
> 
> _For those that do not get the joke.... from the above link: INTPs are often haunted by a fear of failure, causing them to rethink solutions many times and second-guess themselves. In their mind, they may have overlooked a bit of crucial data, and there may very well be another equally plausible solution._



I was curious about the differences between an INTJ and INTP because I once tested as in the middle between J and P, although not most recently, and I found and skimmed this article. This is a pretty fun one that I don't have time to vet thoroughly, but I nodded and laughed in agreement of the parts I read.


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## dralarms (Oct 31, 2017)

I gotta ask, what is INTJ and INTP?


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## sour_grapes (Oct 31, 2017)

dralarms said:


> I gotta ask, what is INTJ and INTP?



Check out this earlier response to this question: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/do-you-like-your-own-wine.58273/page-4#post-666601


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## dralarms (Oct 31, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Check out this earlier response to this question: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/do-you-like-your-own-wine.58273/page-4#post-666601




I read that earlier. Can you translate into southern redneck?


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## sour_grapes (Nov 1, 2017)

I have deleted my previous snarky response. However, I really did try to explain the concept (as I understand it, anyway) as simply as I knew how. I tried to do better and failed.


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## balatonwine (Nov 1, 2017)

dralarms said:


> Can you translate into southern redneck?



It is just one way of compartmentalizing so as to describe personality types in an abbreviated code. It is kind of a psychological horoscope/zodiac.

So the "I" in "INTJ" stands for "Introvert". The other option there would be an "E" for "Extrovert". If one would to translate this to cars, for example, an Introvert is like the family sedan. The Extrovert is like a muscle car. All the other letters in INTJ or INTP have similar meanings. As anther example, the "T" stands for "Thinking" type. The other option instead of "T" is "F" which stand for "Feeling" types. An auto example might be the "T" is a modern auto transmission car with fuel injection which functions very analytically with inbuilt computers, while a "Feeling" type might be a classic manual 5 speed transmission with a carburetor, choke, etc. which you have to manually get a"feel for" to get the car to work optimally.

Hope this helps.


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## dralarms (Nov 1, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> It is just one way of compartmentalizing so as to describe personality types in an abbreviated code. It is kind of a psychological horoscope/zodiac.
> 
> So the "I" in "INTJ" stands for "Introvert". The other option there would be an "E" for "Extrovert". If one would to translate this to cars, for example, an Introvert is like the family sedan. The Extrovert is like a muscle car. All the other letters in INTJ or INTP have similar meanings. As anther example, the "T" stands for "Thinking" type. The other option instead of "T" is "F" which stand for "Feeling" types. An auto example might be the "T" is a modern auto transmission car with fuel injection which functions very analytically with inbuilt computers, while a "Feeling" type might be a classic manual 5 speed transmission with a carburetor, choke, etc. which you have to manually get a"feel for" to get the car to work optimally.
> 
> Hope this helps.




Actually that does. Thank you


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## JohnT (Nov 2, 2017)

So getting back to the main point.. Yes, I LOVE my wine and so does the rest of the family.


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## PandemoniumWines (Nov 3, 2017)

Typically I like my wines.

The Pumpkin I just bottled though.... 

I've got a watermelon peach aging that I had added bananas to... it seems okay, but it stinks like rotten bananas.  since watermelon is a pretty delicate flavor, it really kills the whole thing. Hoping it ages out, because that wine was a ton of work.


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## Mismost (Nov 3, 2017)

I am a better than fair cook. I like cooking and always try to do my best. Most of the time my meals are quite pleasant and enjoyable. They are not 5 star dining by any stretch. But they taste good, provide nourishment, and will make a turd. I like making wine and am getting better. One of my biggest improvements came when I simply started making wines I know I enjoy drinking. As opposed to Oh I have never made one of these yet! I just enjoy drinking my wine and I can overlook some it's faults just like I overlook some my own faults!

Lastly, since I started making wine and paying attention to wines....I find faults with the pro built wines, the store bought stuff, the gold metal winners. I also find that the more people pay, the easier it is to talk themselves into ranking it higher. Really. You just paid 55 bucks for Cab, are going to say this is really kinda crappy? No. Odds are you are going to BS around and find hints of earthiness instead of tastes like wet cardboard. Myself, If I don't like it, I say so, and do not drink it. I have told been I have an uneducated palette, however, my wallet is is highly sensitive and educated.


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## tjgaul (Nov 3, 2017)

Great post Mismost! $55 for a Cab . . . I'd rather make it at home and move the decimal point one digit to the left! I like the whites I have made and I like the flavor of the reds, but they seem to be lacking in structure and complexity. However, due to the wonderful information I am gleaning from this web site, I am working on correcting that fault. 

I absolutely concur that making my own wine causes me to be a more discerning buyer of commercial wines.


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## JohnT (Nov 8, 2017)

If I were to offer to sell a bottle of opus-one at $55, I think there would be a stampede (especially in these parts) ...

I hear what you are saying. Many people ask "is it really worth the money". IMHO, it all depends.

High end wines cost money. Some are good, some are bad, some are price-gouged, and some are like an "afterwards embrace" (giggidy). Although points awarded on a wine (by a reputable wine rater) may give you some idea of how well the wine is received, it all really comes down to tasting and personal preference. 

I have been a winemaker for more than half my life. In that time, I have often wondered just how good is a Chateau Latour or a Chateau Lafite Rothschild??? The vintages I purchased were both are rated at or very near 100 points.

SO, to make a long story short, I have tried them both. I know some may think that this is extravagant, but I considered tasting these wines as a life event and a one time thing, a bucket list item if you will. 

Some guys spend money on telescopes, motorcycles, fishing boats, or hunting rifles. Well, I spent money tasting some high end wines. 

I have to say that in tasting these wines, I get it. I see why they are highly rated. As a highly rated wine, they were fantastic and were clearly flawless. I assure you that this is my true opinion and not my reaction to hype. Believe me, if the wines were of poor quality, I would not have been happy.

So the big question.. Was it worth the money? As a one time thing, I feel it was. It was worth it to me to find out what it was all about, however, I could not in good conscience make drinking these wines are regular thing.

For my 60th birthday, I am planning on opening a Chateau Margaux. I am thinking of picking it up this year and cellaring it until the time is upon me.


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## jgmann67 (Nov 8, 2017)

So far it's just been kits and I tend to be pretty critical of them. Some (like the Forza) I'm crazy over; while others (WE LE Super Tuscan) I wish I'd have spent that money on a different kit. Last year I got to comfort level making wine, so I started making wine from grapes and juice buckets. 

Generally, I like my wine. When I've been at it for 10 or 20 years, I hope to love my wine. What I will say is that, with the exception of the higher-end, cellar-dweller wines that I would save for a special occasion, I'm done going to the state store to buy commercial wine. Since we drink an average of 3 bottles a week, that makes Mrs. Mann very happy.


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## tjgaul (Nov 8, 2017)

JohnT said:


> Some guys spend money on telescopes, motorcycles, fishing boats, or hunting rifles. Well, I spent money tasting some high end wines.
> 
> I have to say that in tasting these wines, I get it. I see why they are highly rated. As a highly rated wine, they were fantastic and were clearly flawless. I assure you that this is my true opinion and not my reaction to hype. Believe me, if the wines were of poor quality, I would not have been happy.
> 
> ...



I agree that if wine is your passion then it's okay to spend a small sum to get the experience. I am a real newbie and probably have yet to develop a palette for high end wines. So far, I have found a few labels in the $25-$35 range that I found really impressive, but the couple of times I have ventured into deeper waters I have been disappointed. My local liquor store hosted a big tasting last fall that included some big name European wineries. They were pouring bottles ranging from $35 up to $100. I can't say that I loved any of them and I honestly did not even like the $75 & $100 bottles. Possibly my expectations were just too high. I guess it's a good thing since I would hate to fall in love with something I really could not afford.

Don't forget to invite us all over for your birthday so we can all have a sip of that Chateau Margaux! I hope it's a magnum.


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## balatonwine (Nov 9, 2017)

tjgaul said:


> So far, I have found a few labels in the $25-$35 range that I found really impressive, but the couple of times I have ventured into deeper waters I have been disappointed. My local liquor store hosted a big tasting last fall that included some big name European wineries. They were pouring bottles ranging from $35 up to $100. I can't say that I loved any of them and I honestly did not even like the $75 & $100 bottles. Possibly my expectations were just too high. I guess it's a good thing since I would hate to fall in love with something I really could not afford.



There is a local winery where I live. They price one of their wines at about $100 a bottle. And they sell it.

I have actually had far, far better $100 a bottles wines. But, again, they sell. So the take home message is, at some point, price becomes an issue of marketing more than economics, so it has, eventually, actually little to do with the product quality.

Quite frankly, if someone is willing to pay $100 for a bottle of wine, even a bottle of wine I find not worth that price, whom am I to argue. Wish I could. Maybe I will. 

So, in some ways, maybe $55 a bottle for something that tastes like cardboard is just not marketed correctly. Maybe it needs to advertise for $150 a bottle and promote its subtle truffle boutique..... (because, seriously, who has actually smelled a truffle to know that is true or not. Wet cardboard versus truffle. Meh. Close enough).

Anyone that gives less than 90 points for a wine is just an unskilled palate promoting fake news, while those that give 95 or above are the only real connoisseur who truly know fine wine.... As is stated by the winery receiving mixed reviews. Call me a cynic. But, right or wrong, that is how the world often works today.

Ignore the hype. Drink what you like. Buy what you like. That is really all any of us can do.


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## Troll (Nov 10, 2017)

i like my wines. Are they better than store bought? Some have nothing to compare with. If you didn't like them why make them. Some are not as hoped but the other regulars I like. Even if you don't like them keep trying. Others may like them or you may enjoy making them, does it really matter?


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