# Untoasted Oak



## Deezil

I wanna get more familiar with untoasted oak & am looking for a quality source. probably cubes if i can be picky, i know i dont want shavings/powder.
How about anything other than American oak?  Lots of that it seems, says Google .. Hungarian/French? Or are they all toasted?
Any who are curious, its supposed to add structure more than oak-flavors, but it is supposed to enhance fruity flavors in wines... 

Anyone have a good source?


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## robie

Deezil said:


> I wanna get more familiar with untoasted oak & am looking for a quality source. probably cubes if i can be picky, i know i dont want shavings/powder.
> How about anything other than American oak?  Lots of that it seems, says Google .. Hungarian/French? Or are they all toasted?
> Any who are curious, its supposed to add structure more than oak-flavors, but it is supposed to enhance fruity flavors in wines...
> 
> Anyone have a good source?



I have never heard that about untoasted oak, but I am interested in learning more. Give us as much info on this as you can get.

Thanks


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## Deezil

From what i've read..

Presque Isle has a massive bag 

There's these guys, but i've never heard of them.. Third paragraph though.

A couple excerpts from this article:

"Untoasted oak is a rich source of hydrolysable tannins called ellagitannins, which break down in must to yield prodigious quantities of gallic acid, a powerful cofactor. The toasting process turns these useful small molecules into large polymers that won't form colloids. Toasted wood doesn't work to enhance color extraction. Worse, the barbecue aromas of toasted wood are amplified by yeast action to produce a strong Worcestershire aroma."

"Wines containing vegetal or microbial notes often can benefit from enhanced structure, which can serve to integrate these aromas into the background and allow them to merge with and support fruit character. Oak can be used to assist this process in several ways already discussed, such as anthocyanin extraction and structural supplementation. Oak introduced during primary fermentation can also provide sacrificial tannins that remove protein and deactivate yeast enzymes destructive to color. Structural enhancements call for extra wood, usually in the form of highquality, untoasted oak chips."

I cant really back up the information, but from what i've gathered;

It's added during primary fermentation of white (and im assuming fruit wines here, my line of thinking) to add structure and help negate some volatile acids (still trying to figure out the how on this), enhances the fruity profile of the given wine, stabilizes the color of the wine over time, without lending a lot of the characteristics found in toasted oaks - the spice/leather/smoke in heavy toasts or the caramel/vanilla/..oak? in medium toasts..

Still looking for more information myself..


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## Deezil

StaVin slideshow, 3rd & 5th slides

I had found these guys earlier but lost the link.. Anywho, they have Midwest listed on their suppliers - a link found on their Contact Us page - but the French Untoasted sounds like it'd be a lot of fun to get to know..


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## bob1

DeZill are we looking for a certain kind or just green oak? Or some cured oak. I like to put it in primary to help the yeast out but I have a ton of oak at the pit.


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## Deezil

Any oak you want to use in wine is cured for atleast 2 years, even the untoasted, from what i can gather... Most of it seems to be american white oak, and that seems to be the variety that adds the structure and such most articles are talking about.. 

From what Innerstave has to offer, it seems untoasted french oak might still bring some of those toasted components to the table, but thats fine if you use it on the right wine..

Both would have their place, if they indeed do what these articles suggest.


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## robie

Joe (joeswine) talks a lot about using oak for building body. He would be a great one to pass this on to for more info. It does sound like it would work, but not add any oakiness to the wine. Joe is a big user of oak powder.

Hopefully Joe will comment.


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## bob1

I didnt see the article before came back and read it. Nice read. I use light toasted oak in primary always thought it was just to help out keeping yeast in suspension. Guess it does more. I also see that I have never seen the untoasted chips.


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## Boatboy24

This was very helpful to me:

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/oakinfopaper09.pdf


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## Deezil

If i cant find anything else, maybe i'll start here


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## Deezil

I love google 

While searching, i came upon this WMT recipe

Just wish there was feedback on it


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## robie

Deezil said:


> I love google
> 
> While searching, i came upon this WMT recipe
> 
> Just wish there was feedback on it



Well, if it took Best of Show, it must be pretty good. Give it a try!
I think I would use something besides Alexander's; maybe a nice kit red.
I would think an Alexander's Burgundy would be a Pinot Noir. Of course that might change up things like how much acid blend.


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## Deezil

What drove me into looking into this was my exploration into increasing body/mouthfeel/structure in fruit wines... without getting into all the commercially-named additives... But im gonna try it on an upcoming batch of mead - aiming for about 16 gallons (3 5-gallon carboys + 1-gallon for top-up); gonna leave one 5 gallon unoaked, 2oz in the 2nd & 4oz in the 3rd.. Then see what happens.. 

Also considering using it on some blackberry-cherry melomel (or maybe hungarian medium, or both) & maybe even red raspberry & gold raspberry that i have aging if i like the results...

Thats why im thinking about the 1.lb bag


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## robie

Deezil said:


> What drove me into looking into this was my exploration into increasing body/mouthfeel/structure in fruit wines... without getting into all the commercially-named additives... But im gonna try it on an upcoming batch of mead - aiming for about 16 gallons (3 5-gallon carboys + 1-gallon for top-up); gonna leave one 5 gallon unoaked, 2oz in the 2nd & 4oz in the 3rd.. Then see what happens..
> 
> Also considering using it on some blackberry-cherry melomel (or maybe hungarian medium, or both) & maybe even red raspberry & gold raspberry that i have aging if i like the results...
> 
> Thats why im thinking about the 1.lb bag



Wouldn't untoasted oak still add some sort of woody taste to the wine?


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## Deezil

It could...? I plan on finding out.. Most of the mead will be used in blending with fruit wines so its not a big deal to me, at this point..

I've also read instructions saying to boil the oak for 15-20 minutes before adding, but that was only once/twice...


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## robie

Deezil said:


> It could...? I plan on finding out.. Most of the mead will be used in blending with fruit wines so its not a big deal to me, at this point..
> 
> I've also read instructions saying to boil the oak for 15-20 minutes before adding, but that was only once/twice...



That's a good way to find out. Please share your results with us.


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## jswordy

I have some 2-year seasoned American red oak firewood, and I am tempted to split out a clean chunk and hang it in a 750 ml bottle of wine just to see if it would work!


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## MalvinaScordaad

jswordy said:


> I have some 2-year seasoned American red oak firewood, and I am tempted to split out a clean chunk and hang it in a 750 ml bottle of wine just to see if it would work!



Yes I would be interested too in your test. All documented use I have read is Red Oak imparts a cat urine quality to wine and it is not used for barrels because it is very porous.


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## Deezil

So there i was, reading through the Winemakers Magazine (not sure which one) and i seen this advert on the bottom of the page...

So i called em up, just got off the phone...

Come to find out, Xtra Oak offers a "Plain" oak chip - either french or american

They arent "untoasted" because they go through a small heating process but i believe its just to condition the wood further, the lady on the phone said it was the equivalent of "untoasted" just wasnt "raw wood"

Solves the "source" question.. Now i just gotta prove to myself that it does what i've read it does... Or prove it doesnt.. Stay tuned for that


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## robie

*vegetal and herbaceous aromas and flavors*

Manley,

Thanks for introducing this thread; it has gotten me interested.

After studying this process myself and then ending up with a vegetal/herbaceous wine from fresh grapes (so strong it is overwhelming), I have read that it is untoasted oak powder that has the greatest affect on vegetal in reds, compared to chips and cubes. Many, even larger wineries routinely put untoasted American oak powder in about every fermentation just to make sure, in case a vegetal aroma/flavor happens to be present. 

During fermentation, the powder doesn't have much affect on oak flavoring in the wine. Vegetal can sneak up on a wine maker and is much more difficult to get rid of after fermentation is done. Certain yeast strains can certainly reduce vegetal. After fermentation is complete, things like long barrel aging, certain tannins and even large doses of bentonite can be used, but just not as effectively.

Again, in this case it is the powder, rather than chips or cubes, that seems to be preferred. Of course I am sure there are exceptions and any form of untoasted oak should help.

Thanks again.


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## Brew and Wine Supply

Hey Manly, I'll just send you a chunk of Missouri Oak from my log pile, if you want chips, I'll pull out my chain saw..


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## Deezil

robie said:


> Manley,
> 
> Thanks for introducing this thread; it has gotten me interested.
> 
> After studying this process myself and then ending up with a vegetal/herbaceous wine from fresh grapes (so strong it is overwhelming), I have read that it is untoasted oak powder that has the greatest affect on vegetal in reds, compared to chips and cubes. Many, even larger wineries routinely put untoasted American oak powder in about every fermentation just to make sure, in case a vegetal aroma/flavor happens to be present.
> 
> During fermentation, the powder doesn't have much affect on oak flavoring in the wine. Vegetal can sneak up on a wine maker and is much more difficult to get rid of after fermentation is done. Certain yeast strains can certainly reduce vegetal. After fermentation is complete, things like long barrel aging, certain tannins and even large doses of bentonite can be used, but just not as effectively.
> 
> Again, in this case it is the powder, rather than chips or cubes, that seems to be preferred. Of course I am sure there are exceptions and any form of untoasted oak should help.
> 
> Thanks again.



Hey, i'm all about "lookin under every rock" 
Earlier in this thread i said i was gonna try this because i didnt wanna get into all the additives - well i already looked under that rock and pulled the trigger on a bunch of stuff but its all from natural beginnings for the most part, except maybe 1 or 2

Thats interesting about the powder, because most of what i've found is chips.. I was originally thinking i wanted cubes or something - along the lines of oak thinking.. powder < chips < cubes < staves < barrels...

But if thats not that case with untoasted.. We're all learning, here..
Interesting




Brew and Wine Supply said:


> Hey Manly, I'll just send you a chunk of Missouri Oak from my log pile, if you want chips, I'll pull out my chain saw..



Just use the chips as the packing material for the next order of additives


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## Deezil

robie said:


> Vegetal can sneak up on a wine maker and is much more difficult to get rid of after fermentation is done.



Prevention is what got me thinking originally; that's what started the whole ball rollin!


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## jswordy

Deezil said:


> So there i was, reading through the Winemakers Magazine (not sure which one) and i seen this advert on the bottom of the page...
> 
> So i called em up, just got off the phone...
> 
> Come to find out, Xtra Oak offers a "Plain" oak chip - either french or american
> 
> They arent "untoasted" because they go through a small heating process but i believe its just to condition the wood further, the lady on the phone said it was the equivalent of "untoasted" just wasnt "raw wood"
> 
> Solves the "source" question.. Now i just gotta prove to myself that it does what i've read it does... Or prove it doesnt.. Stay tuned for that


 
That's cool.They probably are heated to make sure any potential varrmints are killed off, similar to the way oak pallets are heat-treated.

Malvina, I could easily see where the red oak would impart just such a flavor, so that test is CANCELLED!


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## BeerAlchemist

Deezil said:


> Thats interesting about the powder, because most of what i've found is chips.. I was originally thinking i wanted cubes or something - along the lines of oak thinking.. powder < chips < cubes < staves < barrels...



Your experimental thoughts here is pretty interesting Deezil. As far as powder, if all else fails you could always take some chips and toss it into a Vitamix if you own one, I'm willing to bet that it can blend.


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## Geronimo

That is why I got the Cellar Classic Winery Series Italian Super Tuscan kit. It's the only kit I've seen with such a large quantity of untoasted oak. Many people that have made it rave over it.


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## joeswine

*Untoasted oak???????????*

WELL lets look at what we have ,WOOD CHIPS,and not much more,but remember what happens to the wood it gets re-hydrated and the alcohol will extract certain elements from it,I don't no to what extent,may be better for beer than wine,I don't think I would even bother with it,it's not a part of the norm for us.......just my opinion.....


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## Deezil

robie said:


> Manley,
> 
> Thanks for introducing this thread; it has gotten me interested.
> 
> After studying this process myself and then ending up with a vegetal/herbaceous wine from fresh grapes (so strong it is overwhelming), I have read that it is untoasted oak powder that has the greatest affect on vegetal in reds, compared to chips and cubes. Many, even larger wineries routinely put untoasted American oak powder in about every fermentation just to make sure, in case a vegetal aroma/flavor happens to be present.



Hey Robie,

Did you ever come across any sort of 'dosage rates' for untoasted oak powder in various types of wines? Red/White/Mead/Fruit?


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## jimmyjames23

I find one small pack of untoasted oak set in the primary for 10 days does a good job without leaving that acrid oak flavor. Works best with the sawdust placed in first then your must slowly poured over top to avoid excessive foaming. After 10 days you can rack off and the oak dust and heavy lees should stay on the bottom. 
Accents well with a dark medium/heavy toasted oak set in the bulk aging carboy for 4-6 months to finish. 
Best for reds like Merlot, Shiraz and Cab Sauve. Not so well with Alicante, Zinfandel and naturally fruity wines. I assume the low PH (high acidity) reacts with the acrid untoasted oak..usually producing a tart, metallic taste.


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## tonyt

I use two to three ounces of oak dust in primary. Does well for me.


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