# Horrible smelling Traminette



## randomhero (Nov 12, 2013)

I made 6 gallons of Traminette this year, fermented on R2 yeast which was hydrated with go ferm and used fermaid k for nutrients.

I racked to secondary after 10 days and it has been sitting there for a couple weeks now. 

Well I added sulfite the other day and it SMELLED!! Ive never delt with hydrogen sulfide so I did some searching and thats what it sounds like.

Problem is that I added bentonite amd have it outside to clear. Should I bring it inside and splash rack it a couple times instead? 

Also Im including a picture of the stopper it changed colors from the time i transferred it to now. Could that be from the supposed hydrogen sulfide?


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 12, 2013)

A few questions:
Did it smell before adding the sulfite?
Did you have the wine topped off or was there head space? 
Was your SO2 level adequate for the amount of wine?
I'd bring it in and splash rack once or twice and smell it, if it dissipates then you are on the right path, if not, you could get a new piece of copper pipe, wash and sanitize it, and run the wine through it, I personally prefer to avoid using the copper pipe. 
I would purchase Redulees from Morewine or M&M, follow directions, pitch the recommended dose into the wine, after 3-5 days, rack to a clean carboy and it should be fine.
I would keep a packet of Redulees in you wine "tool box", it is nice to have on hand in an emergency.

Keep us updated.


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## randomhero (Nov 12, 2013)

It was topped up to about an inch to the stopper. 

I dont have a tester for so2 so i added 1/8th tsp to the six gallons.

Also I just finished splash racking it and getting it back into the carboy with a new stopper. It smells alot better! Hopefully that was all it needed. But I will put an order in for that stuff from morewine soon.

Thanks!


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## randomhero (Nov 13, 2013)

I ordered the riduless last night at work...said itll be here by friday. 

Got home this morning and I can still smell the funk on the wine


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 13, 2013)

Good deal, I would add 1/4 tsp meta to the wine, you initially added 1/8 tsp, this is half of what is necessary to stabilize your wine. After you treat the wine with Redulees, and rack it over to a clean carboy as per the instructions, I would add the meta.
One last question, was there a white film on the wine in the neck of the carboy?


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## randomhero (Nov 13, 2013)

Nope no white film...it looked fine. 

Weird thing it tasted alright too. Just had the nasty smell


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 13, 2013)

Probably stressed yeast during fermentation, a good yeast nutrient such as fermaid K or Fermaid O would have cured that for you.


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## randomhero (Nov 13, 2013)

The weird thing is this year every batch i made this fall I used fermaid k with.


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## seth8530 (Nov 13, 2013)

Scheduling of nutrients is also quite important. Also, you need to have an idea how much nutrient you need to add based on the nutrient need of the fermentation and the nutrient provided to you by the must.. All things to take into consideration.. Also, temperature is important..


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## randomhero (Nov 13, 2013)

How do you figure out what it requires?


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 13, 2013)

I agree with Seth8530 100%, although I knew about adding yeast nutrients, you really opened my eyes with the research that you did.


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## seth8530 (Nov 13, 2013)

randomhero said:


> How do you figure out what it requires?



Well to do it exactly you would need to test the YAN of the must and then make your additions according to that.. However, for things like mead it is safe to assume the initial YAN is 0.. Presently, ( I am no expert) I assume for grape and juice wines that my YAN is somewhere between 100 and 150mg/l ( on the low side) and aim for 320 mg/l via scheduled additions of fermaid O.

If you want you could reference the below linked thread which has a discussions on such matters. You will find that Deezil and I come from the same general angle on the issue but we do not quite agree on just how much more efficient organic ammino nitrogen sources of YAN or than DAP based sources.. So that is up for you to decide.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/got-off-phone-fermaid-people-38704/




Pumpkinman said:


> I agree with Seth8530 100%, although I knew about adding yeast nutrients, you really opened my eyes with the research that you did.



Thanks, I appreciate knowing that someone other man me is making use of the research. (;


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## randomhero (Nov 14, 2013)

Well I ordered the riduless yesterday from morewine...checked at work tonight and it will be here today haha.

Talk about good shipping.


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## randomhero (Nov 14, 2013)

When i woke up earlier tonight my package was here so i dissolved the right amount in some water and stirred into the wine.

And that thread that you posted will be my homework tonight at work haha.


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 14, 2013)

keep us posted!
Seth, I am a data junkie, the info that you provided is invaluable, I've been very attentive about the applications, so far, I haven't had any issues with my wine.
Thanks again!


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## seth8530 (Nov 14, 2013)

randomhero said:


> When i woke up earlier tonight my package was here so i dissolved the right amount in some water and stirred into the wine.
> 
> And that thread that you posted will be my homework tonight at work haha.



Hopefully that should fix your issues. If not, live and learn... 

Ha, well hopefully it should be enjoyable if not only slightly disjointed reading. Even if you do not go about measuring YAN out.. Hopefully the conceptional knowledge of how yeast needs YAN and how to supplement it should come in handy.



Pumpkinman said:


> keep us posted!
> Seth, I am a data junkie, the info that you provided is invaluable, I've been very attentive about the applications, so far, I haven't had any issues with my wine.
> Thanks again!


I am glad you find it interesting. Unfortunately, my research on that front is at a standstill because I do not have the means so safely test the YAN of my must.. So I must limit my research to reading other people's research on the matter since I can not accurately test the results of varying amounts of YAN myself. 

If you enjoyed that discussion perhaps you would find this article interesting. It pretty much summarizes the perceptional changes of a chard that is fermented with both DAP and Aminnio nitrogen at varying levels of YAN and attempts to compare them.

http://www.practicalwinery.com/summer2012/dap1.htm

My other research ( developing a new ABV equation) is presently also at a road block because I can not test my equation against actual experimental data thus I can not verify my results. However, I can say that my equation follows the existing equations fairly closely so I know it is in the right direction.. But I am having trouble finding out an accurate way to measure the actual brix post fermentation.

So if any one has any ideas that would be much appreciated!

I guess another source of investigation that I am pursing is cold vs hot fermentation techniques. 
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/fall-wine-plans-storm-brewing-39460/ I am afraid that my comparison between the two pinot noirs might end up being flawed because I had add nearly 6 liters of commercial pinot noir to my cold batch while I only needed like 1.5 liters for the hot batch.. So hopefully the differences between the two will be so different that the addition of the commercial pinot will not ruin the experiment.. However, the chard comparison is looking like it will be quite valid since neither batch has needed commercial additions.

BTW, sorry to jack this thread!

Other than that, I think that sums up my active wine research.


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 14, 2013)

Seth, thanks for the link, I know that you probably have read them, but I'll ask anyway...have you read the Scott labs fermentation handbook? lots of good info on YAN in it.
And yes, I apologize for jacking this thread.


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## seth8530 (Nov 14, 2013)

Yep, I actually had a copy of it shipped to me from Scott Labs. I have not read it cover to cover, and it is not quite as full of data as say some of their more specific papers on certain topics.. However, it is quite the usefull little reference to have in the wine room when you are not in the mood for searching. So, I agree, it is quite the recourse. 

I might need to give it a second look however, never hurts to refresh!


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 15, 2013)

Well, at this point, you've become the WMT "Go to Guy" for all yeast Nutrient and YAN issues...lol....I just nominated you...LMAO!!!!

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.


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## Deezil (Nov 15, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> Well, at this point, you've become the WMT "Go to Guy" for all yeast Nutrient and YAN issues...lol....I just nominated you...LMAO!!!!.



Phew! Dodged that bullet ::


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 15, 2013)

Not at all!....muhahahhahaha! 
In all honesty, I think that it is really important to point out those members that have a passion for certain topics, or aspects of wine making. I had a fairly good handle on yeast nutrients, but after i started reading the posts that you guys were sharing, I realized that I needed to learn a bit more about a very crucial part of wine making. Since I did, I haven't experienced any more stinky fermentations.
Happy yeast make great wine!


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## randomhero (Nov 18, 2013)

Well i racked off the lees and splash racked again but I think shes a goner. 

I added another dose just to try it again, but the smell is still there. Not as bad but still noticable.


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## seth8530 (Nov 18, 2013)

What exactly does it smell like? How is the taste? Can you give us more descriptors?


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 18, 2013)

Did you try Redulees?


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## vabeachbear (Nov 18, 2013)

Copper sulfate and gelatin. 

Stir vigorously, then pour in the copper sulfate. Keep stirring for few minutes. 

After put in the gelatin. 

In a couple weeks, rack off the lees. Don't get any of the lees, that stuff can be lethal.


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 18, 2013)

I would use copper as a last resort, I'd almost dump mine before adding copper sulfate, if it isn't weighed out precisely, you can make a toxic wine.
Obviously this is my personal opinion.


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## randomhero (Nov 18, 2013)

Yea thats what I used was the riduless. I waited 5 days and racked off the lees. 

It helped a bit but still has that real strong rotten egg smell.

I thought about the copper sulfate but then the harm that it can cause out weighs the benefits id say....it was only 60$ for the juice so it wont be a huge loss.


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## garymc (Nov 18, 2013)

I have a bad smelling traminette also, but it's not rotten egg smell.


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## randomhero (Nov 18, 2013)

This is a fill the house with a bad sulfur smell when i was splash racking it last week kind of smell.

The funny thing is when i was racking off the riduless today it smelled good. But once it went back into the carboy I could smell it again...dont know why that is.


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## randomhero (Nov 18, 2013)

Garymc whats yours smell like?


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## thesnow (Nov 19, 2013)

I also used Reduless hoping it would get rid of the egg smell, I have $1000 worth of wine at stake here. When I first detect the egg smell I filtered the wine, sulfited and splash racked twice. a couple of days later checked had less but still egg smell. Did like you guys and order Reduless, added the maximum per carboy as instructed, waited 48 hrs then racked of by filtering again. Problem seemed to go away, then a couple of weeks later I verified. I pour wine in a glass, still detect a little trace of smell. After letting the glass air out the smell went away..the wine tasted good.. then I waited another hour to see what would happen with the wine it now smelled like chemical.. don't know if this was cause by the reduless. I'm total stumped...


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 19, 2013)

I used the minimum recommended (Redulees) and did't rack to a clean carboy for 5 days. No problems detected.
Thesnow, can we have a little more info about your wine? What kind, yeast nutrients added, yeast added and so on?
There are a few more steps that you can take, these involve ascorbic acid and CUSo4, followed by Noblesse.
I've never had to use ascorbic acid or CUSo4, I've read in depth about them and their use, just remember to stay 100% within the application rates with CUSo4.

Thanks


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## thesnow (Nov 19, 2013)

Field Mix: 
Zinfandel, Merlot, Sirah. 
Yeast BM45, Nutrient Fermaid K, used twice once at cap formation and at a third depletion.


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 19, 2013)

I'd try yeast hulls, yeast hulls assist by absorbing toxins such as decanoic and hexanoic acids and esters.


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## thesnow (Nov 19, 2013)

Interesting..I will look into it 
thanks


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## altavino (Nov 19, 2013)

you could do another reduless treatment and follow it up with noblesse . this is what scott labs reccomedends. 

I suspect your h2s was caused by leaving the wine on the gross lees for 10 days.

even if you got your nutirent right and had no signs of h2s durring primary , 10 days is long enough for a gross lees bed to go reductive and produce h2s.

24- 48 hours is best practice for racking off the gross lees.


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## garymc (Nov 20, 2013)

Random- In answer to your question about what my tramminette smells like, I heard someone say something about a garlic smell somewhere. I think tar or burnt rubber, but there might be something similar to a garlic smell, too.


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 20, 2013)

John (altovino) you have a very good point, you can run the wine through another application of Redulees, Redulees is in large part, Yeast Hulls, bentonite and other natural elements which are rich in copper.
If the off odor he is smelling isn't h2s and varietal such as garymc is pointing out, then I would be hesitant to add anything else.


> I suspect your h2s was caused by leaving the wine on the gross lees for 10 days.
> even if you got your nutrient right and had no signs of h2s during primary , 10 days is long enough for a gross lees bed to go reductive and produce h2s.


I must have missed this, but again, I couldn't agree more.


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## seth8530 (Nov 20, 2013)

My girlfriend made a strawberry wine. Her fermernation managment skills at the time were not quite up to par and the wine had a very strong rubbery smell to it. However, months later the smell is starting to dissipate. The taste is fine.


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## Paulc (Nov 20, 2013)

Splash racking for sulfide stink is only effective if the stink is discovered during active ferment, once the wine has been pressed and racked off gross lees and it stinks, O2 and splashing is the last thing you want to do. Carefully rack wine onto Reduless and check results. If that doesn't cure it, then try ascorbic acid and more reduless or copper. Splash racking once ferment is done supplies O2 that will be used to convert stinky compounds into ever increasingly hard to remove stinky compounds.
Do some looking into ascorbic acid and copper treatments for the wine. 

Best of luck, Paul


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## thesnow (Nov 20, 2013)

hmm...thought splash racking helped removing the egg smell.
Didn't realize it would do more harm than good. 

Thanks for the input


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## randomhero (Nov 20, 2013)

Everything ive read says to splash rack to help remove the smell alond with the different treatments.


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## Deezil (Nov 20, 2013)

Splash racking works when the wine is still fermenting, as the yeast are still consuming oxygen & producing CO2 to protect the wine.. They'll consume some of the oxygen introduced by the splashing, more when done earlier and less when done later.... 

When done too late, the wine is no longer fermenting & producing CO2 to protect itself, so oxygen introduced at this stage is there to stay.. And oxidize the wine.. 

Splash racking works, but only during an active ferment, as someone else said


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## Pumpkinman (Nov 20, 2013)

+1 great advice!!!


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## randomhero (Nov 23, 2013)

Well it still smells like a fart for lack of better words.

It also tastes like it. Should i dump it or keep it? What does everyone think?


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## seth8530 (Nov 23, 2013)

Honestly, I would just hold onto it for now and see what it does. Not much to gain by dumping it.


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## randomhero (Nov 23, 2013)

Yeah thats what I was thinking.

Is it too late to do some drastic measures on it if i get some copper to hang in it?


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## vabeachbear (Nov 24, 2013)

randomhero said:


> Yeah thats what I was thinking.
> 
> Is it too late to do some drastic measures on it if i get some copper to hang in it?


I am not an expert, but I know that the winery I do volunteer work at, our Riesling in NC will sometimes get that smell after fermentation. 

We also use copper, and then gelatin to clear. Most times, one dose does it. Its amazing how 2 or 3 days later its completely gone. Last year it took two doses. Now 120 cases later sold, people waiting for this years to be bottled at Christmas.

Again though warning, copper S is not the easiest thing to work with, you need to know what you are doing.


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## Paulc (Nov 24, 2013)

Nothing wrong with sitting on it for a while, at least until you need the carboy.

I have never tried it, but have read about it. You can treat the wine with ascorbic acid, follwed by copper in 24-48hrs later. The ascorbic hreaks the stinky hydrogen sulfide into parts that can bind with the copper and settle out. It will also pull goodness out of your wine so you may end up with a non-stinky wine that still tastes like crap.
Up to you to decide if the addition work and effort is worth it.
Paul


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## randomhero (Nov 24, 2013)

I havnt tried using just a plain piece of copper. Should i try that before the copper sulfate?


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## Paulc (Nov 24, 2013)

My guess is the sulphur compounds you dealing with are beyond simple copper at this point. They need to be split so the copper can grab them, hence the ascorbic acid....


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## randomhero (Nov 25, 2013)

Hmm ill have to check at the brew store near my house to see if they have it. thanks for the heads up


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