# Kits versus wine from crushing grapes



## 4score (Jul 1, 2014)

I have a 60-gal barrel of cab franc from a local vineyard that supplies grapes for many Placer County wineries here in northern Cal. I also have 2 carboys of petite syrah from the same vineyard. I bought the grapes and went through the crush and press. It's aging nicely.

I was curious about these "kit" wines. If you have done both, kit and grape crush, how would you compare? I looked on the WineExpert web page and saw some Ultra Premium wines. How good are these? Just looking for some opinions for something to potentially do after this year's crush activity subsides. I'm sure they are good, but interested to know how good. 

Thanks,
Mark


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## ibglowin (Jul 1, 2014)

No comparison. Started with kits the first 1.5 years then tried my first real crush and have gone to fresh grapes 100% for all red wines since then. Still making white wines from kits as there really is not not much difference between the two. Fermenting on 100lbs of skins and seeds vs a 2lb grape pack in a high end kit. Think about it. I like big bold reds that can chew through a steak. Kits have their place. They are fun, easy to do year round, less equipment to buy and don't get me wrong the high end kits are pretty good but I find the outcome and ultimate satisfaction with fresh grapes is exactly what this winemaker is looking for, YMMV as they say.


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## tmmii (Jul 1, 2014)

The first time I did any wine I did 2 juice buckets and had no clue, and a vintners reserve Shiraz kit. The kit was in 2011 and I haven't done another since then. It tasted watered down to me. 


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2014)

I am currently making everything from either high end kits or juice buckets. For me, they are less work, allow year round wine making, allow me to make varieties that I would not normally be able to make from grapes due to non-availability, require less space, less equipment and the wine is decent.

That being said, I agree with everything that Mike states above (I used to make wine from grapes) and if I had the time, youth, energy, space, money, etc. to make the wine from grapes, I probably would do so.


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## 4score (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks guys...that's pretty much what I figured. I just thought the appeal would be in the off-season. I have a few grape crush projects on deck for this Fall!


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## ibglowin (Jul 2, 2014)

Fall! 

California is running so far ahead of "normal" this year you had better be ready in about 4-6 weeks! 



4score said:


> I have a few grape crush projects on deck for this Fall!


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## zalai (Jul 2, 2014)

Hi 4score , 
In the fall you could save some grape skins and freeze it in a freezer bag . Later you could add this to your wine kit .


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## JohnT (Jul 2, 2014)

Other than one attempt (over 20 years ago) at a kit, I make mine 100% from fresh whole grapes. I was surprised, though, when I tasted some of Joeswines sangio. Nice to know that you can get excellent quality wines from kits. 

I do like whole fruit. I find that it is much, much cheaper and one has greater control on the resulting wine.


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## 4score (Jul 2, 2014)

zalai said:


> Hi 4score ,
> In the fall you could save some grape skins and freeze it in a freezer bag . Later you could add this to your wine kit .



You know, that's a great idea. 

My immediate project will be to build some sort of cooled space in my garage. Needs to be big enough to hold a couple barrels and a 30-g flex tank I just bought.


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## 4score (Jul 2, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> Fall!
> 
> California is running so far ahead of "normal" this year you had better be ready in about 4-6 weeks!



Yikes! I need to check that out.


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## ColemanM (Jul 2, 2014)

I envy all of you that can buy fresh grape lugs. I need global warming to bump Minnesota up 3+ zones so I can plant some cab!!


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## WI_Wino (Jul 2, 2014)

ColemanM said:


> I envy all of you that can buy fresh grape lugs. I need global warming to bump Minnesota up 3+ zones so I can plant some cab!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



Where in MN? I can get fresh Cali grapes in southern WI, I would assume you can as well. Talk to your LHBS if you have one, they may bring some in or know of a wholesaler that can. Also winery clubs often do buys in the spring and fall. Lots of options for us Midwesterns.


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## ColemanM (Jul 2, 2014)

Good info! I will have to look into this! 


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## richmke (Jul 2, 2014)

Wino: Do the clubs get grapes and crush them? I'd like to to try making a batch from grapes.


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## WI_Wino (Jul 2, 2014)

richmke said:


> Wino: Do the clubs get grapes and crush them? I'd like to to try making a batch from grapes.



I don't think most clubs crush them, you'll need to do that on your own. For smaller batches you can use a potato masher or a sanitized 2x4. Lots of diy ideas out there.


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## sdelli (Jul 8, 2014)

Two words..... No Comparison!


Sam


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## seth8530 (Jul 8, 2014)

I guess a more interesting question would be a bucket of premium crushed grapes vs fresh grapes.


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## sdelli (Jul 9, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> I guess a more interesting question would be a bucket of premium crushed grapes vs fresh grapes.




Hmmmm.... I use both. I believe they are very close to the same.... That said, a bucket of premium frozen crushed must will always be better then a pail of fresh average grapes. But premium fresh has the ability to be better then premium frozen must. People say they use kits so they can make wine all year round. I have no problem making premium wine all year round with using frozen must in the off season!


Sam


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## syncnite (Jul 11, 2014)

I've only used fresh grapes until this summer. I bought a 5 gallon bucket of frozen juice from winegrapesdirect.com. They're not cheap but they're getting super premium fruit from top vineyards. They also gave me a bottle of their Syrah, which was fantastic. I bought their Chardonnay and it's fermenting now. So that's another option. 


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## vacuumpumpman (Jul 12, 2014)

richmke

We get lugs of grapes in the fall - where we crush them on site and chilean buckets in the spring - not to mention that it is a great party with lots of food and friendship as well. 

If interested PM me as we do this all in the far north portion of IL 

I always will prefer grapes over juice - but that also determines price and availability -


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## vacuumpumpman (Jul 12, 2014)

syncnite said:


> I've only used fresh grapes until this summer. I bought a 5 gallon bucket of frozen juice from winegrapesdirect.com. They're not cheap but they're getting super premium fruit from top vineyards. They also gave me a bottle of their Syrah, which was fantastic. I bought their Chardonnay and it's fermenting now. So that's another option.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



I also tried their product as well - It was definitely very good , but a bit pricey. 
I tried their syrah and cab - both superb !!! nothing but skins !


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## blumentopferde (Jul 15, 2014)

Sorry for my stupid question:

But what are these wine kits all about? Is there still some kind of prohibition going on in the states, that such things would sell? 

Sorry, but I've never heard of anything similar in Europe, except for Sweden, where Alcohol is very expensive...


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## seth8530 (Jul 15, 2014)

A wine kit, is merely a simplification of the vinification process where all the ingredients needed to make a batch of wine are all included. Thus you can make any type of wine no matter the season or supply of grapes. To me, I feel it sort of defeats the purpose of making wine a bit, but I can certainly understand why they are very popular.


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## blumentopferde (Jul 15, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> A wine kit, is merely a simplification of the vinification process where all the ingredients needed to make a batch of wine are all included. Thus you can make any type of wine no matter the season or supply of grapes. To me, I feel it sort of defeats the purpose of making wine a bit, but I can certainly understand why they are very popular.



I understand what a wine kit is, but I don't understand why it sells!

Here in Europe people who want to drink wine buy wine.
People who want to make wine themselves are a rare kind, are mostly into fruit wines (which are easier to produce than grape wines) and do all the work themselves.
It's very hard to find people that produce grape wines as a hobby, that's why I'm in an american forum. And it's understandable, as you get good quality grape wine for a few bucks...

I just wonder why it is so different in the USA. Is it a matter of price or is it a DIY-mentality?


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## seth8530 (Jul 15, 2014)

I would imagine it is also part of the DIY mentality. Ie, I kind of want to make this wine by myself, but I do not want to have to deal with harvesting, crushing, pressing grapes and all the such. Plus, the winemaker still gets the chance to tweak his or her wine during the fermentation process. 

I have not made a kit before, but I could see myself making a kit of wine for a juice or grape that is not easily available to me. So that is another reason. I am not sure how much one would save on the $$$, but that might also have something to do with it.


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## blumentopferde (Jul 15, 2014)

So maybe a bit of both! Or I totally underestimate the European's DIY-mentality and it could be a great market niche over here in Europe


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## seth8530 (Jul 15, 2014)

See. Now that might be a good idea.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 15, 2014)

Note that the kit manufacturers are based in Canada, and I think the percentage of Canadians that make wine from kits is much higher than in the US. This owes, I believe to the factor you cited for Sweden: high taxes. In most of the states in the US, taxes on wine are high compared to Europe, low compared to Canada.

As for prices, a high-end kit works out to about $5 a bottle. The cheapest commercial wine that I want to drink is about $9 or $10 a bottle. (You can get cheaper commercial wine, down to about $4 a bottle, but these are not so good, IMHO.)


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## richmke (Jul 16, 2014)

I first made wine from a kit for the fun of it. Then I found out that I like kit wine better than commercial wine. Something about kit wine is less harsh, almost a bitter taste I don't like in commercial wine.

I can make a high end kit wine for $6/bottle, and a fruity wine (island mist) for $3. Wines that I would buy at the store for $20 or $10/bottle, respectively. So, that is another plus.

It is also a cheap gift. My wife has started to give it away to all her friends. Fortunately, they like the cheap fruity wines.

Now that I have a stock of wine nicely aging, I am thinking about taking the next step into crushed grapes.


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## ibglowin (Jul 16, 2014)

Its no coincidence that all the kit manufacturers are in Canada. The cost for a bottle of Yellow Tail in Canada is 3-4X what you will pay for it here in the States due to Taxes. Kits are popular because homebrewing is popular here in the states (both beer and wine). Many people do not live in a state that can grow decent grapes so this gives them the chance to DIY with some great materials and it all comes in a box delivered right to your door if need be.


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## Dugger (Jul 16, 2014)

As sour_grapes points out, these kits generally come out of Canada and they were developed because there was a market for them. Our alcoholic drinks are very expensive to buy here because they are taxed so high. There is a fundamental difference between the European view of wine/beer consumption from that of North America. Yours is that of an inclusive part of your diet; ours is that of one of the root causes of all evil. We cannot legally consume alcohol until we are, usually, 19 or 21 and its use is very tightly controlled. Alcohol, along with tobacco products, are prime candidates for "sin" taxes and it is very easy for governments to increase taxes on these. Thus our alcoholic beverages are very expensive. 
Wine kits have been available for many years but in the past 10-15 years have become more and more popular as more people switch to wine drinking. The kit quality early on was not good but now many kits, and certainly the ultra premium kits, produce a top quality product, better than the $10-15 wine I can buy.
So economics is what started it and continues to drive it here in Canada. But it is more than that now. Wine drinkers are much more mainstream now and they want access to better and different kinds of wine. Kits manufacturers have recognized this and are trying to meet this demand, by sourcing their grapes from better vineyards around the world. We are able to make wines from grapes normally not available to us and in blends unavailable to us and we can do this year round without special equipment. We can buy a great kit on sale and make it at our leisure instead of needing to make a juice bucket or crushing grapes immediately or keeping it frozen until we do. Even getting fresh grapes or must where I live is extremely expensive (shipping costs in Canada are very high) and I suspect it is similar in many other areas. 
Then there is the DIY aspect you have mentioned. There is definitely a satisfaction factor involved, whether you make your wine from kits or grapes or juice or fruit. These processes challenge the home winemaker to make a better product and it can be very self-satisfying. Combine this with inviting family and friends to help with crushing/bottling/drinking and it can be a great social event as well.
Kit wines have proven to be popular and viable in our part of the world but somehow I just don't see that happening in your area. I don't think your wants and needs would support this.
I hope this somewhat answers your question.


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## bkisel (Jul 16, 2014)

I thought that both beer and wine making from kits was pretty popular in England. No?


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## ibglowin (Jul 16, 2014)

I know beer and wine *drinking* are very popular in the UK!


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## blumentopferde (Jul 16, 2014)

Dugger said:


> As sour_grapes points out, these kits generally come out of Canada and they were developed because there was a market for them. Our alcoholic drinks are very expensive to buy here because they are taxed so high. There is a fundamental difference between the European view of wine/beer consumption from that of North America. Yours is that of an inclusive part of your diet; ours is that of one of the root causes of all evil. We cannot legally consume alcohol until we are, usually, 19 or 21 and its use is very tightly controlled. Alcohol, along with tobacco products, are prime candidates for "sin" taxes and it is very easy for governments to increase taxes on these. Thus our alcoholic beverages are very expensive.
> Wine kits have been available for many years but in the past 10-15 years have become more and more popular as more people switch to wine drinking. The kit quality early on was not good but now many kits, and certainly the ultra premium kits, produce a top quality product, better than the $10-15 wine I can buy.
> So economics is what started it and continues to drive it here in Canada. But it is more than that now. Wine drinkers are much more mainstream now and they want access to better and different kinds of wine. Kits manufacturers have recognized this and are trying to meet this demand, by sourcing their grapes from better vineyards around the world. We are able to make wines from grapes normally not available to us and in blends unavailable to us and we can do this year round without special equipment. We can buy a great kit on sale and make it at our leisure instead of needing to make a juice bucket or crushing grapes immediately or keeping it frozen until we do. Even getting fresh grapes or must where I live is extremely expensive (shipping costs in Canada are very high) and I suspect it is similar in many other areas.
> Then there is the DIY aspect you have mentioned. There is definitely a satisfaction factor involved, whether you make your wine from kits or grapes or juice or fruit. These processes challenge the home winemaker to make a better product and it can be very self-satisfying. Combine this with inviting family and friends to help with crushing/bottling/drinking and it can be a great social event as well.
> ...



That explains a lot, thank you!

So I guess these kits would also work well in Scandinavia, where "sin taxes" are also very high.

To dig deeper into this area: Northern Europe is just like Northern America mostly Protestant, in spite of southern Europe and southern America which are mostly Catholic. Maybe that is the source for the different view on Alcohol. While Protestantism propagates some kind of ascetism, the catholic church is more abundant in it's self concept...


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## Rocky (Jul 16, 2014)

blumentopherde, if you think that the northern US is mostly Protestant and the South is mainly Catholic, you need to check your sources. In actuality, the Northeast of the US is predominately Catholic and the South is very Protestant.

In any case, I believe making wine is a lot like cooking. Although winemaking takes a longer time, many of the cautions we employ are similar. When you make sauce for pasta, do you use fresh tomatoes or canned? When you bake bread, do you mill the wheat or buy flour from the grocer? Do you raise your own chickens, beef cattle, pork, etc. of do you buy these items already processed? I think it is similar with winemaking. I can bake bread using store bought flour but is that not like buying a "kit" for bread and adding the water, yeast, etc.?


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## sour_grapes (Jul 16, 2014)

blumentopferde said:


> To dig deeper into this area: Northern Europe is just like Northern America mostly Protestant, in spite of southern Europe and southern America which are mostly Catholic.





Rocky said:


> blumentopherde, if you think that the northern US is mostly Protestant and the South is mainly Catholic, you need to check your sources. In actuality, the Northeast of the US is predominately Catholic and the South is very Protestant.



I believe she meant "southern America" as in South America. "America" does not mean "US" to many people that live elsewhere.


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## blumentopferde (Jul 17, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> I believe she meant "southern America" as in South America. "America" does not mean "US" to many people that live elsewhere.



Yeah, was actually talking bout North and South America, the continent, not the country!

But I'm really going off-topic now!


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## sour_grapes (Jul 17, 2014)

Well, while we are off-topic: How many continents are there? If you were a French schoolchild in the mid-20th century, you would answer "cinq" (five): Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and America. That's right: they view Eurasia as two continents, and the Americas as one (and omit Antarctica). This is the symbolism of the five olympic rings.


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## JohnT (Jul 17, 2014)

Just to weigh in here ......

One point that I would like to make is that home winemaking here (USA) is popular here simply because of the American culture. 

As a country, we are made up (sadly, almost entirely) of people that have come from other places. A large portion of the poor immigrants coming from continental Europe produced wine back home (in the "old" country) simply because they could not afford to drink it otherwise. When they settled in America and simply continued the practice.

Then came prohibition. During the 14 years of prohibition it was actually LEGAL to make wine or beer at home, but ILLEGAL for anyone to sell it. You could not simply go down to the local store and just buy a bottle. You either made it yourself, knew someone that made it, or went thirsty. In a large way, prohibition spawned the home wine market. Heck, even Ernest and Julio Gallo (one of the larges wine producers in the US) survived prohibition by shipping their California wine grapes to the northeast home wine market in New York or Boston areas (where most immigrants settled).

I know that in my case, a large part of why I make wine at home is to connect with my father's memories of Hungary. I am sure that a large portion of home winemakers out there will be able to say "my grandfather made wine" either because they did it in the old country or they did it during prohibition.



For me, another reason is as others have said. I can produce a wine that rivals a $30 bottle of wine for about $3.50 (glass and cork included). My whole family drinks wine every day and rarely purchases a bottle from a store.


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## blumentopferde (Jul 17, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Well, while we are off-topic: How many continents are there? If you were a French schoolchild in the mid-20th century, you would answer "cinq" (five): Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and America. That's right: they view Eurasia as two continents, and the Americas as one (and omit Antarctica). This is the symbolism of the five olympic rings.



That's how I learnt it at school


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## Sudz (Jul 18, 2014)

Interesting subject.

I've been making wine for about 5 years. Because of grape availability primarily, this has been from kits. I've used kits from just about every company out there and learned early on to stay with the premium kits.

I observed that virtually every one of the white kits have been good to very good. My wife and I prefer reds, and sadly have not had one red kit I've enjoyed. Most we would not bother to drink even after a couple of years aging. The limited red wine we've made directly from grapes has been very good.

I don't know the reason for this but at this point it's clear my efforts to make a decent red wine from a kit is a waste of time and money. I envy those of you who are successful with your red kits.


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## ibglowin (Jul 18, 2014)

A small barrel (23L) works wonders on those reds (kits) but still I agree nothing beats fresh grapes if you can get them.


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## BBBF (Jul 18, 2014)

I started brewing beer just before the craft movement really snowballed. At the time it allowed me to produce something more interesting than I could find in the stores, but mostly it was a hobby that fills my DIY desire, produces something I can enjoy and if I push around some numbers (ignoring equipment costs), I can make it look like I'm saving money. I got into wine when I found juice buckets and could make something my wife would enjoy, using equipment I already had and a better ratio of quality and price in what I was making vs. what we would be buying.


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## Sudz (Jul 18, 2014)

BBBF said:


> I started brewing beer just before the craft movement really snowballed. At the time it allowed me to produce something more interesting that I could find in the stores, but mostly it was a hobby that fills my DIY desire, produces something I can enjoy and if I push around some numbers (ignoring equipment costs), I can make it look like I'm saving money. I got into wine when I found juice buckets and could make something my wife would enjoy, using equipment I already had and a better ratio of quality and price in what I was making vs. what we would be buying.



Appears we tracked down the same path. I still brew because I actually prefer my beer and enjoy the challenge. Thought I'd do the same by making wine. I mean how hard can it be? I have most of the equipment and I can start with a simple kit... right??


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## cooldood (Jul 18, 2014)

I am in the same boat


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## BBBF (Jul 18, 2014)

Sudz said:


> Appears we tracked down the same path. I still brew because I actually prefer my beer and enjoy the challenge. Thought I'd do the same by making wine. I mean how hard can it be? I have most of the equipment and I can start with a simple kit... right??



It works just fine until you decide to make wine from grapes and start buying presses, crusher/destemers and more tanks/carboys because they're going to be tied up for much longer than your beer equipment. Then you have to start hiding equipment costs from your wife again. Altough something tells me she'd be a little more understanding of the wine equipment.


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## Sudz (Jul 18, 2014)

Oh she would. She has no use for my beer but enjoys wine. Truthfully, she hasn't a clue what I've actually spent on this hobby...


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## vacuumpumpman (Jul 19, 2014)

Sudz said:


> Oh she would. She has no use for my beer but enjoys wine. Truthfully, she hasn't a clue what I've actually spent on this hobby...



That is a good thing !! 

I have not made a kit yet - normally just wine juice or grapes


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## 4score (Jul 19, 2014)

I have the luxury of living close by vineyards affording me the opportunity to get fresh grapes. Many of the vineyards offer on-site crushing and the clubs and friends have presses to borrow. My only problem has been storage. No cave or basement here so I have had to rent space at an air conditioned storage center where I keep my barrels and carboys. It's so hectic in the Fall, but things calm down so much shortly after and I just thought a premium kit might be a nice distraction.

I suppose another strategy might be to concentrate on DRINKING the wine when not so busy MAKING the wine!


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## GaDawg (Jul 19, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Thus you can make any type of wine no matter the season or supply of grapes. To me, I feel it sort of defeats the purpose of making wine a bit, but I can certainly understand why they are very popular.



Seth, if making kits "defeats the purpose of making wine a bit" at what point does one have to go be be a real wine maker? Does one also have to grow grapes? And do you have the same approach to cooking?


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## sdelli (Jul 19, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Seth, if making kits "defeats the purpose of making wine a bit" at what point does one have to go be be a real wine maker? Does one also have to grow grapes? And do you have the same approach to cooking?




I agree that we are all chefs in the kitchen when making wine..... But a chef can only be as good as the product he or she is starting with. I have come to learn that there are two different objectives when selecting a wine process..... Fresh grapes is like playing the game of Curling. The object is to guide and enhance the nature of the force already in progress. When you select a juice from a processed kit or a pail of juice you now use all your spices and creative thinking to make something special. Me..... I enjoy the taste of wine made from fresh high end grapes. 


Sam


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## GaDawg (Jul 19, 2014)

sdelli said:


> Me..... I enjoy the taste of wine made from fresh high end grapes.
> Sam



So, should I stop making wine because varietal grapes are not available in west Georgia?


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## sdelli (Jul 19, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> So, should I stop making wine because varietal grapes are not available in west Georgia?




I make wine all year long! It is called frozen must.... 


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## seth8530 (Jul 19, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Seth, if making kits "defeats the purpose of making wine a bit" at what point does one have to go be be a real wine maker? Does one also have to grow grapes? And do you have the same approach to cooking?




GaDawg, I did not mean to marginalize winemakers who make wine from kits. I do not believe that one has to grow one's own grapes, but if available I believe that the winemaker should make every effort to use fresh produce when readily available. If I had a choice between a kit and frozen must I would go for the frozen must year round since I believe that is closer in spirit to the wine making process.

That being said, I have no disrespect for kit winemakers, I just tend to enjoy the extra creativity and freedom that is inherent with starting closer to square 0.

Just curious, what do you mean by if I have the same approach to cooking?


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## seth8530 (Jul 19, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> So, should I stop making wine because varietal grapes are not available in west Georgia?



BTW, you can get fresh grapes shipped over from California or Chili during the fall and spring wine harvest. And lets not forget the finger-lakes region either for whites.


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## sdelli (Jul 19, 2014)

But there is also no hiding that kits are very inexpensive. If your budget cannot handle the cost of crushing grapes then kits is a good alternative. Even though the quality is much higher.... It has to be within your means to go down that road..... 


Sam


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## GaDawg (Jul 20, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Just curious, what do you mean by if I have the same approach to cooking?



Seth, I make wine from kits. For me, making wine from kits is just as valid as making bread from flour. I do not feel I need to mill grain in order to bake bread, just as I do not feel it is necessary to crush grapes.

I have no doubt your palette is far more developed than my taste. Thankfully I don't have to please anyone but myself. I like what I make and I like making wine from kits (it's like a chemistry set for adults), but as you said you believe kits "defeats the purpose of making wine a bit". That is great for you, so I think we will have to disagree about this part of winemaking.


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## seth8530 (Jul 20, 2014)

Well also, like I said before I have not problem with Kit winemakers. I should have emphasized perhaps that the reason I really like making wine from grapes and juice is because I really like the things you get to deal with when you start doing that. To me, that is the fun part, not necessarily the final product, but really the stuff that goes into making the wine my own.


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## sdelli (Jul 20, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Seth, I make wine from kits. For me, making wine from kits is just as valid as making bread from flour. I do not feel I need to mill grain in order to bake bread, just as I do not feel it is necessary to crush grapes.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no doubt your palette is far more developed than my taste. Thankfully I don't have to please anyone but myself. I like what I make and I like making wine from kits (it's like a chemistry set for adults), but as you said you believe kits "defeats the purpose of making wine a bit". That is great for you, so I think we will have to disagree about this part of winemaking.




Sorry..... Have to disagree. Flour to bread is a terrible comparison to pasteurized kit juice to fresh crushed premium grapes! I can give you the best chef in the world.... But if has has to prepare a meal with tough meat vs. a filet. It will be different! Bottom line I believe it is not about quality. That is a given! It is more about time and money... People will give all the reasons and excuses they want. It is still about time and money.


Sam


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## garymc (Jul 20, 2014)

When I read the title "Kits versus wine from crushing grapes" I could see it coming. Versus could be interpreted and was probably meant to mean compare and contrast or some such rather than Ali versus Frasier or Batman versus the Riddler. 
At least it took a few pages before somebody got their feelings hurt.


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2014)

sdelli said:


> Sorry..... Have to disagree. Flour to bread is a terrible comparison to pasteurized kit juice to fresh crushed premium grapes! I can give you the best chef in the world.... But if has has to prepare a meal with tough meat vs. a filet. It will be different! Bottom line I believe it is not about quality. That is a given! It is more about time and money... People will give all the reasons and excuses they want. It is still about time and money.
> 
> 
> Sam



Sam, for me it does have to do with time, money and many other things. But it is not just that I don't have the time or don't have the money. It is more I don't see a _justifiable differential value_ of making wine from grapes _at this stage in my life_ given the time, money, space, mess, fruit flies, equipment required, seasonality, limited selection of grape varieties, etc. when I can make wine from juice buckets and kits that is very, very drinkable and that friends, neighbors, relatives and I perceive is as good or better than commercial wines costing up to $25. This is not to say that these conditions and preferences exist for everyone. 

Secondly, I believe that GaDawg's analogy in making bread does have merit. If you make pasta sauce, do you start with fresh tomatoes, skin them, seed them and puree them? I don't. I _have_ done so when I had a garden and the sauce was wonderful. I now find that Contadina, Hunt's and a number of other canners do a very good job and the differential benefit of processing my own tomatoes is not a good value proposition _for me_. If someone finds it is worth it to process their own tomatoes, more power to them.

Further, I respectfully disagree with your analogy of a "the best chef in the world." If he were truly the best chef in the World or even just a talented chef, he could take a tough piece of meat and make it taste like a filet. This is not unlike some of the "tweaking" I do with juice buckets and kits.

Lastly, if you think quality is a "given" for wine from fresh grapes, you need to taste some of the homemade wines I have had, _made from fresh grapes_. I think the rule is, _There is no rule _and just as one can mess up a fine filet, another can make excellent wine from a juice bucket or kit.


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## richmke (Jul 21, 2014)

Filet is actually not the best cut for flavor. A great Chef will take the tougher cuts, like flank and skirt, that have a lot of flavor, and do wonders with it.

Fresh ingredients are usually the best. However, it is only relatively recently that fresh ingredients are available year-round. It use to be that frozen is the best you can get. Some would say that even fresh is not so great. They have been designed to survive transportation, and taste. Locally grown fresh heirloom varieties is the best.

So, a premium kit wine is the equivalent to the best frozen/canned veggies that are made from the best. They can be better than ho-hum fresh grapes.


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## blumentopferde (Jul 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sam, for me it does have to do with time, money and many other things. But it is not just that I don't have the time or don't have the money. It is more I don't see a _justifiable differential value_ of making wine from grapes _at this stage in my life_ given the time, money, space, mess, fruit flies, equipment required, seasonality, limited selection of grape varieties, etc. when I can make wine from juice buckets and kits that is very, very drinkable and that friends, neighbors, relatives and I perceive is as good or better than commercial wines costing up to $25. This is not to say that these conditions and preferences exist for everyone.



My approach is totally different:
I can get top quality wine for around 10$ per bottle, so making wine doesn't really pay off moneywise. For me it's more about the experience of grape growing and the tweaking and playing around in the winemaking process. But mostly it is about seeing the plants grow, getting them through the year and get rewarded by ripe and beautiful fruits (Ok, I haven't been that successful so far, but that's part of the challenge). If I had no garden I wouldn't care much about winemaking...


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## sdelli (Jul 21, 2014)

Rocky... I am not saying you cannot make good wine from a kit. Only that you cannot ever make great wine from a kit! You will never be able to produce a $100 or $150 bottle of wine from a kit. But you can from fresh grapes! This definitly says something about the product you are starting with. Funny thing is that I see once people have trained their pallet to kit wine they don't even enjoy fresh grape wine usually... Not always... But usually... And I have tasted kit wine that won big awards... To me... It tasted like a kit wine....


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## ibglowin (Jul 21, 2014)

I disagree and I have made both. You can make great wine from a kit. It just takes a lot of tweaks, time and $$$. And 99% of us can't make a $100-$150 bottle of wine from fresh grapes because you/we will never have access to that quality of starting material unless you are married or related to the vineyard manager or vineyard owner. It is easier to make a good/great bottle of wine from fresh grapes for about the same price per bottle as a high end kit. If you have access to the starting materials and equipment I recommend fresh grapes over a kit any day. But for those who live in a place that fresh grapes are not readily available or have no access to a crusher and press a high end kit as about as good as it gets.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 21, 2014)

sdelli said:


> You will never be able to produce a $100 or $150 bottle of wine from a kit. But you can from fresh grapes! This definitly says something about the product you are starting with.



And you will never win the Indy 500 with a production car. But you can with a custom-made car!! Therefore, custom-made cars are better than production cars!


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## richmke (Jul 22, 2014)

When money is no object .... I might as well buy the $150 bottle of wine.


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## JohnT (Jul 22, 2014)

sdelli said:


> Rocky... I am not saying you cannot make good wine from a kit. Only that you cannot ever make great wine from a kit! You will never be able to produce a $100 or $150 bottle of wine from a kit. But you can from fresh grapes! This definitly says something about the product you are starting with. Funny thing is that I see once people have trained their pallet to kit wine they don't even enjoy fresh grape wine usually... Not always... But usually... And I have tasted kit wine that won big awards... To me... It tasted like a kit wine....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


 
Now, You folks know me. I AM the resident wine snob. You also should know that I have only made 1 batch of kit wine several decades ago with horrible results. Out of tradition, economics, experience, and preference, I have always made my wine from fresh grapes. 

Then joeswine took me to school. After tasting his san gio, I have to tell you that it IS possible to make a $150 bottle of wine from a kit. I was elated. I was so happy to know that I can continue making wine should circumstances change where I no longer have a labor force or large dedicated space for equipment.

The kits available today are amazing! In fact, more and more wine competitions are now judging kit wines and wines from fresh fruit together, side by side.

On a side note: Most winemakers do not ask each other "why". We already know that we do this simply for the love of it.


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## GaDawg (Jul 22, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> And you will never win the Indy 500 with a production car. But you can with a custom-made car!! Therefore, custom-made cars are better than production cars!



Paul, I don't believe any of us could win the Indy 500 with any car


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## sour_grapes (Jul 22, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Paul, I don't believe any of us could win the Indy 500 with any car



Hey, don't be too sure: http://voices.yahoo.com/5-wineries-owned-celebrity-race-car-drivers-6881214.html


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## GaDawg (Jul 22, 2014)

Cool


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## berrycrush (Jul 23, 2014)

My question to kit experts:
1. Are kit juice made from steam juicer?
2. How do you judge the quality of a kit besides looking at the label?


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2014)

Berrycrush, 

I can't help a lot with question 1 except to say that the juice is normally pasteurized which raises the temperature to something under the boiling point so it would seem that a process close to steaming is used. I am not sure.

On question 2, _my experience (and this is a limited sample size) _has been to follow these guidelines:
a. red wine kits with a higher volume of concentrate, e.g. 16 liters or more, generally make a better wine.
b. red wine kits with a crushed grape pack or raisins make a better wine than those which don't have these items.
c. white wine kits of 16 liters of concentrate or more make the best wine but I have found a few 12 liter white wine kits that make a very nice white wine. Cellar Craft Sterling and RJ Spagnols Gran Cru International are examples of 12 liter white wine kits I have made and with which I have been pleased.
d. I am always skeptical about "all juice kits" i.e. 23 liters no water needed. There have been reports that these kits are nothing more than a cheaper kit with the water added. If you order them on-line, as I do, you a paying to ship a lot of water.
e. This statement will be somewhat controversial but it has been _my experience_ that red wine kits from Mosti Mondiale are not as good as those from Cellar Craft, RJ Spagnols or WinExpert.

I am sure that this will start a firestorm of discussion but this forum is largely based on the experiences of the members. Good luck with your wine.


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## bkisel (Jul 23, 2014)

Pretty much what Rocky said but you can, by tweaking, turn a lower end kit into a finished wine that tastes like it was made from a more expensive kit.


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## zalai (Jul 23, 2014)

I agree with Rocky , most of the time you get what you pay for .


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## Dugger (Jul 24, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> My question to kit experts:
> 1. Are kit juice made from steam juicer?
> 2. How do you judge the quality of a kit besides looking at the label?



The juice is comprised of pure juice and juice concentrate, in various ratios and is flash pasteurized under high pressure. This article, winemakermag.com/your-first-wine-from -a-kit , gives some explanation.
Quality as per previous posters.


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## berrycrush (Jul 24, 2014)

Dugger said:


> The juice is comprised of pure juice and juice concentrate, in various ratios and is flash pasteurized under high pressure. This article, winemakermag.com/your-first-wine-from -a-kit , gives some explanation.
> Quality as per previous posters.



So they use a pressure-cooking steam juicer?


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## Dugger (Jul 24, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> So they use a pressure-cooking steam juicer?



No, it's pumped through small pipes at high pressure which produces the high temperature - no steaming involved.


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## berrycrush (Jul 24, 2014)

Dugger said:


> No, it's pumped through small pipes at high pressure which produces the high temperature - no steaming involved.



Have you seen one in operation?


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## Dugger (Jul 24, 2014)

Yes - both Spagnols and Winexpert in Vancouver.


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## berrycrush (Jul 24, 2014)

Dugger said:


> Yes - both Spagnols and Winexpert in Vancouver.



Share some detail please! Did you work there or took a tour? There seems to me less information on the internet on how the wine kit is make than an nuclear explosion device. , that makes me even more curious.


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## Dugger (Jul 24, 2014)

I had tours of both plants while visiting family in Vancouver a few years ago. I forget some of the details but it's a fairly simple process. They contract out grape harvests/crushing with various vinyards around the world and import the fresh juice in cooled containers to their plant. The concentrate is also done under contract at various locations around the world and brought to the plants. The juice is put into enclosed tanks, blended if it's a blend kit, then pumped through a piping system that includes a high pressure point creating very high temperatures to pasteurize it very quickly. I believe the concentrate is also added to the blending tank and not later on, but my memory of that is iffy. The resultant mixture is fed into the plastic bags, capped, put into boxes, additives placed in boxes, boxes sealed and carried to their warehouse for shipping. It's a very automated process. Production runs are usually limited to one particular kit a day. Unfortunately, the concentrate and blending information and percentages used are proprietary and not shared with visitors. I believe the concentrates may be quite generic except for the higher end kits, but that is just my thought. I did not see any grapeskin kits being produced and I cannot remember if they told me they were produced elsewhere or on site. 
Sorry I cannot be more specific on certain parts of the process but this should give you a better understanding of how they are made. I find that Winemaker magazine has some good information on this and if you go to their website you can access many archived articles.


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## richmke (Jul 24, 2014)

berrycrush said:


> nuclear explosion device.



Now you did it. All the posts will now be read by the NSA.


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## berrycrush (Jul 24, 2014)

richmke said:


> Now you did it. All the posts will now be read by the NSA.


...and make'm thirsty for wine which is good for winemakers


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