# Operation Massa Family Red - Muscat-Alicante-Zinfandel



## Ajmassa

This one is gonna be fun. Replicating our old Massa Family Red from grapes. Already lots of people looking forward to it. Especially my brothers.
There wasn’t 1 definitive recipe they used- except when from juice: it was always 2muscat buckets and 1 Alicante per demijohn. But for grapes it varied a lot I recently learned. The 3 main grapes- Muscat Alicante and Zinfandel.
Now this is “old style”. No additions. The much debated Natural ferment. I’ll likely cheat here and there but nothing crazy. I know I’ll be adding sulphites later. And I may feed a touch of nutrients as well.
But that’s it. A completely stress free batch. No adjustments. Enzymes would likely add time to aging. Which would nullify another nice aspect, that this is supposed to be an early drinker. Even w/ no MLf- unless the wine gods say so that is.
Just crush em (minimal sorting) and let it go. Get it to glass. Rack a few times and bottle. Maybe some barrel time. Drinking before next summer. Here we go!


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## Ajmassa

Had myself a busy weekend. Lots of work going on at home. Pushed back my planned pickup time beyond Procacci’s hours of operation. Very disappointing - but I would be goddamned if I wasn’t getting my grapes!
Called an audible and hit up Corrados. Which is like the NYC equivalent to Phillys Procacci. Both joints very old school and went well with the wine I’m making. 
The Muscat Alicante blend is still very much a popular neighborhood wine. So much so that Corrado’s suppliers package em in 42lb lugs.
Over an hour drive and grabbed my grapes and a couple new demijohns. Got stuck in Jets game traffic on the way home. Damn Jets.
Just kinda picked a ratio that felt right. Went with
x3 42lb Muscat lugs
x2 42lb Alicante lugs
x2 36lb Old Vine Zinfandel lugs
Yielded 26 gal of must from 282lbs total. The Alicante was so dark right out of the berry! Sg read 1.087. I’m hoping that will climb after sitting the day. Ph at 3.5. Rock and roll!
The room is still a hot mess. But now ready to let nature take the Massa Family Red over!
Here’s some pics.


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## pgentile

May the wine gods be on your side, good luck.


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## Ajmassa

So much for a stress free batch. After getting the fruit fly invasion under slightly better control I was able to tend to the wine. 
SG stayed the same at 1.087. Calculated 6 lbs sugar to bring to 1.095. I had 4lb bag. In it went. 
Then I’m standing thinking “am I really gonna not add yeast? If stops short then I just made this that much sweeer. And I’ve got plenty of yeast here. This feels wrong. I can just sprinkle it right now and be done with it”
The temptation to add yeast was strong. But I resisted the urge. And had Visible activity after stirring this morning. No cap yet. But activity.


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## stickman

Damn, you wern't supposed to add that sugar, uncle Carl is gonna be pissed if he finds out!


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## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> Damn, you wern't supposed to add that sugar, uncle Carl is gonna be pissed if he finds out!



It’s CARLO! Uncle Carlo just wants his vino. He won’t care!

To be honest-this is all about recreating the taste we all grew up with it. Ya cant buy it- only make it. But I’m making up the rules as I go. 
-Bumping up the sugar was an easy choice at <21°Brix. No known abv before, but it did not take much to get tuned up. 
-Gonna feed nutrients too. Especially with the chaptalizing (<—no clue how to pronounce that lol) I wanna give the yeast the best chance for success. 
A natural ferment isn’t necessary at all. Nobody cares but me. I just viewed this as a perfect opportunity to finally give it a shot. That’s how they did it- plus the grapes were cheap. If I didn’t try it now then I doubt I ever would have.


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## cmason1957

Given how many commercial yeast ferments you have done already in the same area, I bet you are using whatever the dominant yeast (probably EC-1118) is in that area. I don't have the same fear of "natural ferments" that most others have. You have commercial yeast all over your area. Let it grow, let it grow. Heck, it might even take off and do an MLF all on it's own, since you added no SO2.

Story time, I have a friend who has a very small commercial winery out near Hermann, MO. To any fruit he gathers from the area, he never adds commercial yeast. Now he does spread his pressed remains throughout his vineyard. Last year he purchased some Chardonel juice from one of the large wineries in the area. Twice he added commercial yeast to it, never could get it to ferment, this year at harvest time, after pressing his skins from his La Crescent grapes, he added about three or four bucketfuls of those to the Chardonel. Took off fermenting the next morning and went to dry. Don't fear the native yeasts.


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## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> Given how many commercial yeast ferments you have done already in the same area, I bet you are using whatever the dominant yeast (probably EC-1118) is in that area. I don't have the same fear of "natural ferments" that most others have. You have commercial yeast all over your area. Let it grow, let it grow. Heck, it might even take off and do an MLF all on it's own, since you added no SO2.
> 
> Story time, I have a friend who has a very small commercial winery out near Hermann, MO. To any fruit he gathers from the area, he never adds commercial yeast. Now he does spread his pressed remains throughout his vineyard. Last year he purchased some Chardonel juice from one of the large wineries in the area. Twice he added commercial yeast to it, never could get it to ferment, this year at harvest time, after pressing his skins from his La Crescent grapes, he added about three or four bucketfuls of those to the Chardonel. Took off fermenting the next morning and went to dry. Don't fear the native yeasts.



That’s right! I forgot that you’ve done natural ferments on a semi regular basis. Nice story on the natural skins handling the tough job too. 
Now I’m no viticulturist, or some master vintner. I’m just a dude who likes to make wine in his basement. And I think I’ve got a good grasp on most aspects of the process now. But whenever I read about dominant strains in a wineroom that take over- I’m left scratching my head. I can’t wrap my head around this or how it’s even possible. I clean and sanitize everything. 
And why EC-1118? How’s it get there? Who else is it fighting? It is the ‘air’ you mean right? Not fermentors or carboys or things or contact with the wine? Is EC-1118 stronger in the air too just like in juice? You’ve just confused everloving sh*t outta me.


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## cmason1957

Sorry, if I confused the heck out of you, (probably confused myself to). I just assume everybody has used EC-1118 at some point and it's probably the dominant one there. It gets there, I don't have any clue how. And it may really be EC-BM4X-Q23-take your pick. And I may just be flat wrong, I have exactly zero scientific proof of any of this, it's just my guess as to what happens and how I explain it to myself at night, when I wake up and think, I didn't sanitize something enough, now did I? and I'm going to make crappy wine that nobody in their right mind wants to drink.

It's also part of why I don't co-innoculate ML Bacteria. I use those same buckets sometimes for wine kits and I'd rather not get any MLB into them, even accidentally. I did have one wine kit get the dreaded geranium taste, last time I ever put Potassium Sorbate into a dry wine kit. But I digress and wander.


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## Jbu50

Great story and pics! Thanks for the recipe!


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## Ajmassa

Aight, well I’m certainly not used to this timeline. So far this is how it’s gone:

Sunday night 9/16
Crushed 282 lbs for 26 gal must
3.5 ph. 1.087 SG. No additions to the must. 
Grapes had been out of refrigeration for a bit before my pickup. And a good drive home. Must temp was 72° by end of night- same as ambient room temp

Monday 9/17
No real change. Small cap starting to form. Calculated 6 lbs of sugar to bump to 1.095. I had a 4lb bag— should have went to 1.092. But I think i should’ve used wine volume to calculate not must volume. New SG 1.097
72° 

Tuesday 9/18
Cap formed by the night . SG still 1.097
73°

Wednesday 9/19
SG- 1.090. Nice Full cap at all punches now. 
75°

Thurs 9/20
Punching full strong caps morning, afternoon and night. The color has been getting darker every day. 76° at morning punch. 

Likely gonna give it a shot of DAP and FermK tonight. But at this rate the ferment is going to be much longer than I’m used to. Tho it’s exactly what i expected from a natural ferment. 
The fruit fly issue is still very much a constant problem. And to tend to the wine properly I need to stop spending most of my available time ridding them to be able to open the brute to test and punch. 
Plan is to set up an ICRA barrier that we use for hospital construction work. Completely sealed with plastic with a zipper entry. But not using the giant ventilation unit, I’ll just include the existing screened window within the ICRA barrier for some air flow. Because both this ferment and the flies are gonna be around for a while.


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## stickman

What is the temperature at this point?


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## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> What is the temperature at this point?



Updated previous post with temperature progression


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## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Updated previous post with temperature progression


AJ, that Alicante is the darkest grape you will find anywhere. Like I said it's both a good grape for color and adding to the wine it's not just a bland color addition. And does make a good single varietal wine. I'm eager to hear how this project takes off.


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## Ajmassa

1st Natural ferment chugging along nicely 

9/20 Thurs night 
77° 1.071

9/21. Friday night 
80°. 1.052. Now within fly sealed plastic chamber. Not 100% sealed. But lightyears better than in open room. Able to leave open to comfortably punch/stir/pull samples/let air out for few minutes. 

Sat 9/22 (6th day Since crush)
81° 1.032

Since the SG has been dropping fairly consistently I opted to not add any nutrients for now. 
No issues so far (knock on wood). Compared to my standard timelines, this is definitely going at a slower but more steady pace. Normally I’d be pressing today or tomorrow. But I’m looking at 2-3 days longer than normal. And more time on skins is a great byproduct.


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## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> 1st Natural ferment chugging along nicely
> 
> 9/20 Thurs night
> 77° 1.071
> 
> 9/21. Friday night
> 80°. 1.052. Now within fly sealed plastic chamber. Not 100% sealed. But lightyears better than in open room. Able to leave open to comfortably punch/stir/pull samples/let air out for few minutes.
> 
> Sat 9/22 (6th day Since crush)
> 81° 1.032
> 
> Since the SG has been dropping fairly consistently I opted to not add any nutrients for now.
> No issues so far (knock on wood). Compared to my standard timelines, this is definitely going at a slower but more steady pace. Normally I’d be pressing today or tomorrow. But I’m looking at 2-3 days longer than normal. And more time on skins is a great byproduct.


It's going to be dark lol. Really get black from that Alicante


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## Ajmassa

CK55 said:


> It's going to be dark lol. Really get black from that Alicante



Now don’t go crowning yourself resident advice giver just yet! This is a similar blend that my family has been doing for a couple generations. 
It’s over 40% Muscat. 
It finishes on medium bodied side. And the color ends up pretty light for a red wine actually. 
The majority of my winemaking knowledge comes from previous experiences. And even when your confident of something as fact- reality doesn’t always agree. As you get some batches under your belt you’ll see what I’m saying. 
Btw- back in in June I recall helping you through your 1st kit on here. How’s that one coming out? I’m thinking it’s just about due for its 1st bulk racking. And starting to show signs of what it’s going to become.


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## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Now don’t go crowning yourself resident advice giver just yet! This is a similar blend that my family has been doing for a couple generations.
> It’s over 40% Muscat.
> It finishes on medium bodied side. And the color ends up pretty light for a red wine actually.
> The majority of my winemaking knowledge comes from previous experiences. And even when your confident of something as fact- reality doesn’t always agree. As you get some batches under your belt you’ll see what I’m saying.
> Btw- back in in June I recall helping you through your 1st kit on here. How’s that one coming out? I’m thinking it’s just about due for its 1st bulk racking. And starting to show signs of what it’s going to become.


FIrst kit yes, b ut ive dont about 15 all grape batches, its just each time i try a new grape, its like learning all over as each grape wants different oak or whatnot. And different aging.


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## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Now don’t go crowning yourself resident advice giver just yet! This is a similar blend that my family has been doing for a couple generations.
> It’s over 40% Muscat.
> It finishes on medium bodied side. And the color ends up pretty light for a red wine actually.
> The majority of my winemaking knowledge comes from previous experiences. And even when your confident of something as fact- reality doesn’t always agree. As you get some batches under your belt you’ll see what I’m saying.
> Btw- back in in June I recall helping you through your 1st kit on here. How’s that one coming out? I’m thinking it’s just about due for its 1st bulk racking. And starting to show signs of what it’s going to become.


Actually i followed the kit instructions on that one and its already in bottle, yeah i know, crazy but i followed the directions because i couldnt be bothered doing anything else. 

My sangiovese all grape 3 gallon batch is sitting doing malolactic and aging with a oak spiral right now. Ill rack it a couple times and get it bottled since its usually a young wine when you drink it first 2 years, especially around here i expect to get it in bottle and drinking faster than most other wines.


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## Ajmassa

Down to 1.006 now. 78°

Still looking very active and the cap was still strong. Might be done punching to let her go undisturbed underneath for a day so she can concentrate on finishing the job. I’ll
Make that call later today. 

With the added sugar in a natural ferment sans nutrients—Anything under 1.000 will be a win.


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## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Down to 1.006 now. 78°
> 
> Still looking very active and the cap was still strong. Might be done punching to let her go undisturbed underneath for a day so she can concentrate on finishing the job. I’ll
> Make that call later today.
> 
> With the added sugar in a natural ferment sans nutrients—Anything under 1.000 will be a win.


Sounds like a winner! I am eager to hear how it goes.


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## AkTom

I’m thirsty!!!


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## Ajmassa

Had a golf outing today that went later than expected. Did some prep work - but it’s late and I’m tired. One more day won’t kill me. 
72° and .996 SG. Success. Pretty stoked this went dry. 
I left the cap in place since last night, and I can here the wine bubbling away within. Will jump back at it tomorrow. 

*Side note- I did finally taste the d254/d80 Chilean Malbec, still unblended. The 254 is clearly the early winner. Big nose. Big flavor. The 80 more mellow. Color on both is the best I’ve ever seen on my wines. I also blended the samples and tasted. I believe the term used was “hot diggity!” And Heather agreed. An extremely satisfying feeling.


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## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Had a golf outing today that went later than expected. Did some prep work - but it’s late and I’m tired. One more day won’t kill me.
> 72° and .996 SG. Success. Pretty stoked this went dry.
> I left the cap in place since last night, and I can here the wine bubbling away within. Will jump back at it tomorrow.
> 
> *Side note- I did finally taste the d254/d80 Chilean Malbec, still unblended. The 254 is clearly the early winner. Big nose. Big flavor. The 80 more mellow. Color on both is the best I’ve ever seen on my wines. I also blended the samples and tasted. I believe the term used was “hot diggity!” And Heather agreed. An extremely satisfying feeling.


Nice


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Had a golf outing today that went later than expected. Did some prep work - but it’s late and I’m tired. One more day won’t kill me.
> 72° and .996 SG. Success. Pretty stoked this went dry.
> I left the cap in place since last night, and I can here the wine bubbling away within. Will jump back at it tomorrow.
> 
> *Side note- I did finally taste the d254/d80 Chilean Malbec, still unblended. The 254 is clearly the early winner. Big nose. Big flavor. The 80 more mellow. Color on both is the best I’ve ever seen on my wines. I also blended the samples and tasted. I believe the term used was “hot diggity!” And Heather agreed. An extremely satisfying feeling.



Good to see this coming along nicely. Had confidence it would. By the way I keep hearing how dark alicante is supposed to be, but my petite sirah is much much darker.


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## Ajmassa

I mean, it is a dark grape. And the only grape containing red juice inside the berry. (Thought that was pretty interesting). You can see in The pic above at crushing. But not as full as a PS I think- which is both super dark and tannic- right?
And the Muscat is not thin. Doesn’t darken up too easy. This wine is looking exactly like I had anticipated. Which is pretty light. Really meant as an every day type of wine. Good to crack open with any meal. Which is exactly what a “[censored Italian slur] Red” is supposed to be.


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## Bts

A pH of 3.5 with cheap california grapes? Interesting. I always wondered why D Red called for white grapes, but now I'm thinking that at least part of it was for the lower PH without having to mess around PH meters and tartaric. My cali red grapes and buckets always seem to come in around 3.8 to 4.2, but I guess 40% muscadet would fix that pretty reliably.


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## CK55

pgentile said:


> Good to see this coming along nicely. Had confidence it would. By the way I keep hearing how dark alicante is supposed to be, but my petite sirah is much much darker.


Pure Alicante Bouschet is the darkest wine you will find. It can be diluted by blending.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I mean, it is a dark grape. And the only grape containing red juice inside the berry. (Thought that was pretty interesting). You can see in The pic above at crushing. But not as full as a PS I think- which is both super dark and tannic- right?
> And the Muscat is not thin. Doesn’t darken up too easy. This wine is looking exactly like I had anticipated. Which is pretty light. Really meant as an every day type of wine. Good to crack open with any meal. Which is exactly what a “[censored Italian slur] Red” is supposed to be.



Just for clarity I was comparing my alicante buckets to my petite sirah , the alicante is a very dark burgundy color and the ps is a deep twilight purple to blackhole black. I would expect your drego to be lighter.


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## pgentile

CK55 said:


> Pure Alicante Bouschet is the darkest wine you will find



Side by side my petite sirah is darker. But the alicante are juice buckets.


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## CK55

pgentile said:


> Side by side my petite sirah is darker. But the alicante are juice buckets.


Key thing, that juice bucket doesn't have skins right??? That might be why.


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## pgentile

CK55 said:


> Key thing, that juice bucket doesn't have skins right???


That's true, that's why I mentioned they were buckets.


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## CK55

pgentile said:


> That's true, that's why I mentioned they were buckets.


Yeah, that's probably why. Alicante is usually jet black, high in Alcohol due to grenache parentage. But it does have tannins and acidity to age long. It does benefit from oak aging.


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## pgentile

CK55 said:


> Yeah, that's probably why. Alicante is usually jet black, high in Alcohol due to grenache parentage. But it does have tannins and acidity to age long. It does benefit from oak aging.


It will get oaked, thanks


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## CK55

pgentile said:


> It will get oaked, thanks


Let me know how it turns out. It's a grape that I really like I planted vines of it.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I mean, it is a dark grape. And the only grape containing red juice inside the berry. (Thought that was pretty interesting). You can see in The pic above at crushing. But not as full as a PS I think- which is both super dark and tannic- right?
> And the Muscat is not thin. Doesn’t darken up too easy. This wine is looking exactly like I had anticipated. Which is pretty light. Really meant as an every day type of wine. Good to crack open with any meal. Which is exactly what a “[censored Italian slur] Red” is supposed to be.



Norton is another with red juice. At crush it's almost inky.


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## Ajmassa

I know a winemaker who is a master at blending with Norton


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I know a winemaker who is a master at blending with Norton



Then you need to introduce him to clueless me.


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## Ajmassa

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I know a winemaker who is a master at blending with Norton



So humble. Fred, those Norton blends were fantastic! I mean that wholeheartedly. 
And I even have an existing bias against local grapes. It’s not intentional, but I am at least aware of it. Chamboricin, Norton, Marquette, etc.. always expecting to be less than impressed. 
And those blends- you clearly selected winning blend ratios. 

*must be those 60mL syringes. Same kind that you so generously gifted me for blending. And also the mad scientist technique using every yeast ever made! You’re definitely finding your own unique style down there. I hope to eventually develop my own unique styles. As long as I keep the addiction going I’m sure that’ll happen organically. Right now I’m still just trying to not screw things up as I continue to bite off slightly more than I can chew.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> So humble. Fred, those Norton blends were fantastic! I mean that wholeheartedly.
> And I even have an existing bias against local grapes. It’s not intentional, but I am at least aware of it. Chamboricin, Norton, Marquette, etc.. always expecting to be less than impressed.
> And those blends- you clearly selected winning blend ratios.
> 
> *must be those 60mL syringes. Same kind that you so generously gifted me for blending. And also the mad scientist technique using every yeast ever made! You’re definitely finding your own unique style down there. I hope to eventually develop my own unique styles. As long as I keep the addiction going I’m sure that’ll happen organically. Right now I’m still just trying to not screw things up as I continue to bite off slightly more than I can chew.



Wow, thank you very, very much. By far the nicest compliment I ever received.


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## Ajmassa

Transferred and pressed the other night. Final gravity is ~.996. I used my pvc ‘gajillion hole’r’ within a zip-tied nylon bag. Fastened a better base to the pipe this time. Could not have went any smoother. Got about 16gal pumping w/o needing to shift or adjust anything. Filled the demi and 1/4 of the 6.5gal carboy. Loaded skins. Couple more gal of free run. And about 1gal of press. *what was once a huge struggle, separating skins from wine, is now a cakewalk. Love that little DIY tool. 
Much lighter color than expected. But as I finished working the demi had started to settle showing the color I anticipated. Looks like it will be higher than average lees loss too. We’ll see. Racking off in a couple days. 
Everybody digs pictures. So here’s a few from pressing. 
-1st pic is all the cleaning and prep work. Regardless of making an ideal sink setup- cleaning and prepping is still a huge pain in the ass!


-A couple pics of the ‘gajillion hole’r’ at work. 





-couple action shots of my press 





-the yield


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## Ajmassa

Noteworthy : 

When i loaded the crusher I just had each lug resting on top. Sorting as I loaded. One of the nails from the lids had fallen into one lug. I did not catch it in time. Sucker ping panged thru the c/d. Stopped and inspected everything. Machine? Check Must? Check. Single nail on floor? Check. 
Back to work. Well guess what I found at the bottom of my ferment? Lol. Yep. Hoping the 6d nail will add a little somethin somethin to the wine!



Also, while pressing I caught a whiff of what I thought was my dog Ozzy farting- which can be brutal. And I kept catching it. I smelled the press, demijohn, brute - but I couldn’t locate the origin. It lingered all night long and I apologized to Ozzy after ultimately realizing I popped my h2s cherry! It didn’t overtake the wine, but it’s there. 100%. I’ve got some reduless ready for when I rack off the lees. Sorry Ozzy.


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## mainshipfred

You're lucky that nail didn't cause any damage to the C/D. It seem you're fermentation when pretty well. Some yeasts are labeled as higher producers of H2S. Do you think some of the native yeasts could have had that trait?


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## Johnd

I know you debated yourself about adding the nutrients, and didn't see anywhere in the thread where you decided to do it, any second thoughts in light of the H2S? Asking because I'm planning to do a little native yeast experiment myself, though adding nutrients is definitely part of my plan at present.


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## Ajmassa

I truly believe it stemmed from waiting too long before pressing. It was way dry and done dropping for almost a full day. If I had time to press Sunday instead of Tuesday night I think it woulda been cool. 
Or if I added nutrients i probably could’ve gotten away with the extra dry pressing. 
But like I said it’s not so strong that I’m overly concerned. In fact, this might sound crazy to many, but I’m not even disappointed. I always hear about the dreaded h2s and I finally have an opportunity to troubleshoot it. Will finally have some 1st hand experience. I also intentionally pushed the envelope with this one. Sorta toeing the line and seeing how lazy you can actually get and still end up without issues. 
I’m confident that a healthy and vigorous splash rack will blow off a lot. And then the reduless if needed. 
Definitely don’t wanna hang out on the lees too long tho. So I’ll be racking tonight and doing the cooper pipe test. I’ll be sure to post the results tonight. First gotta swing by my grandmothers and play plumber this afternoon. 

**unless it really was Ozzy farting all along


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I truly believe it stemmed from waiting too long before pressing. It was way dry and done dropping for almost a full day. If I had time to press Sunday instead of Tuesday night I think it woulda been cool.
> Or if I added nutrients i probably could’ve gotten away with the extra dry pressing.
> But like I said it’s not so strong that I’m overly concerned. In fact, this might sound crazy to many, but I’m not even disappointed. I always hear about the dreaded h2s and I finally have an opportunity to troubleshoot it. Will finally have some 1st hand experience. I also intentionally pushed the envelope with this one. Sorta toeing the line and seeing how lazy you can actually get and still end up without issues.
> I’m confident that a healthy and vigorous splash rack will blow off a lot. And then the reduless if needed.
> Definitely don’t wanna hang out on the lees too long tho. So I’ll be racking tonight and doing the cooper pipe test. I’ll be sure to post the results tonight. First gotta swing by my grandmothers and play plumber this afternoon.
> 
> **unless it really was Ozzy farting all along



Dog flatulence aside, and having had some minor H2S bouts in the past as well, I'm betting it'll blow off with a couple of good splash rackings, as mine have in the past. Good luck!!


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## Ajmassa

Fred- the c/d is a beast. And already looks like it’s been thru both world wars. So much so that I even try to not post closeup pics to avoid hearing how “technically ‘this’ can be bad. And ‘that’ can cause negative ‘this’ ......etc...”. It handled the nail like the seasoned vet it is. 
This whole batch is like one big experiment anyway. A last minute add-on decision to recreate the old family red with cheap grapes. Perfect opportunity to tinker around a bit. 
But when the Paso Robles grapes come in you can bet your ass I’ll back to standard practices. Getting the cocktail of nutrients/yeast/tartaric*/enzyme/malo/opti. Back to mad scientist role. Instead of “wreckless Uncle Tony’s garage wine” style. It’s been real. But looking forward to getting back in the saddle.


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## porkchopmessiah

Just an aside, when you all are making your wines, what makes an early drinker vs one that gets better over a few years...even the wines ive made at my winemaking for dummies local place probably would have improved with age had I not drank them all...are some grapes better for aging than others?


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## CK55

porkchopmessiah said:


> Just an aside, when you all are making your wines, what makes an early drinker vs one that gets better over a few years...even the wines ive made at my winemaking for dummies local place probably would have improved with age had I not drank them all...are some grapes better for aging than others?


Yes some grapes are most definitely better for aging than others. Typically wines that will age a extremely long amount of time have high acidity and high tannins like Nebbiolo which really is the king of aging. Some well made Bordeaux blends can last easily 50 years.


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## Ajmassa

porkchopmessiah said:


> Just an aside, when you all are making your wines, what makes an early drinker vs one that gets better over a few years...even the wines ive made at my winemaking for dummies local place probably would have improved with age had I not drank them all...are some grapes better for aging than others?



Big bold reds I was assume. I’m no expert. But the more extraction of tannins on a bold red, especially the types with high abv, high acid and high tannin, (think Napa cabs) need some time to fall into place. Even the juice buckets your making- at 1 year they are good. At 3 yrs they can be impressive. 
I just started putting actual effort into aging. It’s tough. Long commitments. Especially when a wine is already good. My plan has been to not bottle it. Lol. Working so far.


----------



## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Big bold reds I was assume. I’m no expert. But the more extraction of tannins on a bold red, especially the types with high abv, high acid and high tannin, (think Napa cabs) need some time to fall into place. Even the juice buckets your making- at 1 year they are good. At 3 yrs they can be impressive.
> I just started putting actual effort into aging. It’s tough. Long commitments. Especially when a wine is already good. My plan has been to not bottle it. Lol. Working so far.


Thats what i do when i want to fight drinking a wine because i know it would benefit from aging.


----------



## Ajmassa

Update on this wine. 

H2s issue
So like I said, at pressing I noticed waves of an unpleasant odor. When I racked off the lees the smell had dissipated a lot. Hard to describe it tho. And I haven’t had h2s before. Brought in Heather for a 2nd opinion. I asked “rotten egg”?
She said “definitely not. Not ‘rotten’ egg at all. ‘Eggy’ maybe. But not rotten”
I’ll probably rack again in a week or so and add a pinch of reduless if needed. But so far so good with that. 

Numbers 
Ended up with a full 54L demi and 6 gal carboy plus change. 20+ gal from 282lbs. Coulda been more if I pressed harder. 
3.5ph. 6.5TA. .995 final gravity - rock n roll! Natural ferment sans nutrients a success in spite of upping the ante with an SG bump. 

Gameplan
No sulphites yet. Gonna wait and see if the demi goes thru MLF naturally. I’m gonna inoculate the carboy when I do another batch soon. Potentially having some w/ and w/o MLf to note differences. 
If all goes to plan I’ll start a batch this weekend. Which means I’m about 2-3 wks from a baseline chroma test. At that point if the demi hasn’t shown any natural malo progress I’ll sulphite and put her to bed with some staves cut to fit in the demijohn. 
Planning to bottle this spring. And drinking our old Massa Vino by the summer.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Update on this wine.
> 
> H2s issue
> So like I said, at pressing I noticed waves of an unpleasant odor. When I racked off the lees the smell had dissipated a lot. Hard to describe it tho. And I haven’t had h2s before. Brought in Heather for a 2nd opinion. I asked “rotten egg”?
> She said “definitely not. Not ‘rotten’ egg at all. ‘Eggy’ maybe. But not rotten”
> I’ll probably rack again in a week or so and add a pinch of reduless if needed. But so far so good with that.
> 
> Numbers
> Ended up with a full 54L demi and 6 gal carboy plus change. 20+ gal from 282lbs. Coulda been more if I pressed harder.
> 3.5ph. 6.5TA. .995 final gravity - rock n roll! Natural ferment sans nutrients a success in spite of upping the ante with an SG bump.
> 
> Gameplan
> No sulphites yet. Gonna wait and see if the demi goes thru MLF naturally. I’m gonna inoculate the carboy when I do another batch soon. Potentially having some w/ and w/o MLf to note differences.
> If all goes to plan I’ll start a batch this weekend. Which means I’m about 2-3 wks from a baseline chroma test. At that point if the demi hasn’t shown any natural malo progress I’ll sulphite and put her to bed with some staves cut to fit in the demijohn.
> Planning to bottle this spring. And drinking our old Massa Vino by the summer.
> View attachment 51565



Will Uncle Carlo be OK with you oaking it or will you just not tell him?


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Will Uncle Carlo be OK with you oaking it or will you just not tell him?



Lol. Na. He’d probably smack me on the back of the head and call me a ‘stunad’ for not using a barrel out the gate- even if it just for 9 months. 
(Btw Uncle Carlo is just the old head Massa winemakers all rolled up into one fictional guy- “uncle Carlo”)


----------



## Ajmassa

he’s not alive anymore anyway to disapprove! The only one left who made wine is my old man. But he never got too deep. He had the family’s old equipment and made grapes a handful of time but mostly juice. In the 80’s was when we had 3 generations working together with my grandfather and his brothers. Me and my brothers were stompers a couple years. But usually our role was just getting cracked for trashing the basement after having our annual “grapeskin war” when they pressed. 
Family was in 4 different rowhomes on the same block growing up in northeast Philly. ...... the good ol’ days.


----------



## heatherd

@Ajmassa5983 I am really digging your stainless steel work table and sink!


----------



## Ajmassa

heatherd said:


> @Ajmassa5983 I am really digging your stainless steel work table and sink!



Thanks. That’s the one section that’s definitely not temporary. I wanted to get that area knocked out first. Makes working much more comfortable. The rest is just slapped together. I’ll finish it itnin stages eventually. But for now it’s more than functional.


----------



## Ajmassa

New batch just detailing here as well. 
Finally picked up grapes Saturday late morning. I got 8 lugs of Cab Sauv clone#8 from Paso Robles. I also grabbed a juice bucket of Sauv Blanc. 
Wasn’t sure what to expect with the extra hangtime this year. Right away I noticed the stems and seeds were much more green than brown still. And the berries were tiny. Had some doubts there for a min......that is, until I sorted. 
These grapes were hands down the cleanest healthiest grapes I’ve ever gotten. Chilean fruit has been really great for me, yet no match to these. I’m not exaggerating at all when I say there was absolutely ZERO bad clusters. No raisins. No mold. No random undergrown clusters. None. Quite impressive. Good job Paso Robles mystery vineyard. 
I had to work quick because we had an all girls 11th birthday party/haunted hayride/sleepover to host. 
#’s directly after crush:
29gal of must from 288lbs of grapes 
24 Brix
3.5 ph
6.3 TA
20 ppm free so2
Numbers seemed perfect. Figured Brix may climb some too. Added the enzymes (EX-V)’and an 8g leftover packet of booster rouge for the hell of it. Next day I caught a curve ball from wine gods. 
Ph 3.8
TA 7.65 
24 °Brix
They cant make it too easy now. Nod bad tho. Both days the numbers and meter were double checked. 
Adjusted acid with a touch of tartaric mindful of TA. (Adjustment based on TA to 8. Didn’t wanna go higher. Ph barely budged) Was pitching Avante yeast with goFerm by Sunday night. Avante eats up 30% malic so ph should drop some more. Ambient temp is 64° which is great- allowed some extra work time. Opened the heat registers down there and called it a night. Early this morning cap starting to form. Pitching VP41 tonight. And we’re makin wine again!


Truck loaded. Didn’t secure the juice. Got home bucket on side. Lost maybe 1/2 gal. Coulda been worse tho. 



Grapes before sorting



Crush setup. The vinyl gutter “must chute” to the basement idea was ditched after wasting 30 min trying to rig it up. Lugging down the ol’ fashioned way. Will revisit Next year. 



Post sorting. I did em all together. Gorgeous fruit. Even the leaves were minimal. And zero waste!



So2 check. High enough for me to comfortably not add any more. (Actually 20. Overshot the titret to be sure)



In its new home for the next week. 64°



Full day of macerating with enzymes 64°



Signs of cap starting this morning—10 hours after yeast. 67°


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> New batch just detailing here as well.
> Finally picked up grapes Saturday late morning. I got 8 lugs of Cab Sauv clone#8 from Paso Robles. I also grabbed a juice bucket of Sauv Blanc.
> Wasn’t sure what to expect with the extra hangtime this year. Right away I noticed the stems and seeds were much more green than brown still. And the berries were tiny. Had some doubts there for a min......that is, until I sorted.
> These grapes were hands down the cleanest healthiest grapes I’ve ever gotten. Chilean fruit has been really great for me, yet no match to these. I’m not exaggerating at all when I say there was absolutely ZERO bad clusters. No raisins. No mold. No random undergrown clusters. None. Quite impressive. Good job Paso Robles mystery vineyard.
> I had to work quick because we had an all girls 11th birthday party/haunted hayride/sleepover to host.
> #’s directly after crush:
> 29gal of must from 288lbs of grapes
> 24 Brix
> 3.5 ph
> 6.3 TA
> 20 ppm free so2
> Numbers seemed perfect. Figured Brix may climb some too. Added the enzymes (EX-V)’and an 8g leftover packet of booster rouge for the hell of it. Next day I caught a curve ball from wine gods.
> Ph 3.8
> TA 7.65
> 24 °Brix
> They cant make it too easy now. Nod bad tho. Both days the numbers and meter were double checked.
> Adjusted acid with a touch of tartaric mindful of TA. (Adjustment based on TA to 8. Didn’t wanna go higher. Ph barely budged) Was pitching Avante yeast with goFerm by Sunday night. Avante eats up 30% malic so ph should drop some more. Ambient temp is 64° which is great- allowed some extra work time. Opened the heat registers down there and called it a night. Early this morning cap starting to form. Pitching VP41 tonight. And we’re makin wine again!
> View attachment 51674
> 
> Truck loaded. Didn’t secure the juice. Got home bucket on side. Lost maybe 1/2 gal. Coulda been worse tho.
> 
> View attachment 51675
> 
> Grapes before sorting
> 
> View attachment 51676
> 
> Crush setup. The vinyl gutter “must chute” to the basement idea was ditched after wasting 30 min trying to rig it up. Lugging down the ol’ fashioned way. Will revisit Next year.
> 
> View attachment 51677
> 
> Post sorting. I did em all together. Gorgeous fruit. Even the leaves were minimal. And zero waste!
> 
> View attachment 51678
> 
> So2 check. High enough for me to comfortably not add any more. (Actually 20. Overshot the titret to be sure)
> 
> View attachment 51679
> 
> In its new home for the next week. 64°
> 
> View attachment 51680
> 
> Full day of macerating with enzymes 64°
> 
> View attachment 51681
> 
> Signs of cap starting this morning—10 hours after yeast. 67°



First pic you ever posted of your lab, I think.


----------



## CDrew

Great post. The pics of the wine gutter looks interesting. Too bad it didn’t work out.


----------



## mainshipfred

CDrew said:


> Great post. The pics of the wine gutter looks interesting. Too bad it didn’t work out.


 
Good idea though huh!


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> First pic you ever posted of your lab, I think.



Lol. Not exactly a “lab”. Furnished with yardsale & work freebies for now. I’ve got a rough vision of what I eventually want that I’ll be chipping away at tho. Lighting is next. Box of new hi hats just sitting there collecting dust. Stick around a few yrs and maybe you’ll see a finished product [emoji6]
When I met up with JohnT I really got a great example of how to make a space functional for winemaking. He also has outside access and separate bottle storage. Big plus. 
Main issue I need to figure out is if I wanna incorporate bottle storage within the area or build elsewhere. Or both.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Lol. Not exactly a “lab”. Furnished with yardsale & work freebies for now. I’ve got a rough vision of what I eventually want that I’ll be chipping away at tho. Lighting is next. Box of new hi hats just sitting there collecting dust. Stick around a few yrs and maybe you’ll see a finished product [emoji6]
> When I met up with JohnT I really got a great example of how to make a space functional for winemaking. He also has outside access and separate bottle storage. Big plus.
> Main issue I need to figure out is if I wanna incorporate bottle storage within the area or build elsewhere. Or both.



Probably don't have to tell you but if your making a temperature controlled room for bottle storage make it twice as big as you think. Aging carboys in there takes a lot of space. Mine is 4x6 and absolutely too small. This winter when my shop cools down I'll remove everything and enlarge mine.


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Great post. The pics of the wine gutter looks interesting. Too bad it didn’t work out.



Thanks. I’ll definitely rig something up proper for next year. It’s not exactly something to be done while the fruit is sitting there waiting to be crushed tho! I already had the gutter so I gave it the ol’ college try. 
I Just couldn’t find the time to make it happen beforehand. But you can see what I had in mind. It was simply a $5 vinyl 10’ gutter as the trough. Now I’ll have time to do it right with at least 3” pvc I’m thinkin Whether I build a hopper to manually feed or a direct line is tbd.


----------



## Ajmassa

Somehow ended up with a wind drift in my cap. I dig it tho. Nice and strong 24 hours after pitching. 
I’ve got a beginners white wine question. Haven’t fermented a white wine bucket in a few years. But I remember it looking more vigorous than this. And a small layer of foam. This one is just ever so delicately fizzing away. All is well with temp and SG drop. But in a certain light you can’t even tell there’s activity. That’s normal right?


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 51706
> 
> Somehow ended up with a wind drift in my cap. I dig it tho. Nice and strong 24 hours after pitching.
> I’ve got a beginners white wine question. Haven’t fermented a white wine bucket in a few years. But I remember it looking more vigorous than this. And a small layer of foam. This one is just ever so delicately fizzing away. All is well with temp and SG drop. But in a certain light you can’t even tell there’s activity. That’s normal right?
> View attachment 51707



They’re all a little different, doesn’t sound like anything to worry about, and it may pick up a bit in a bit more time.


----------



## CDrew

Your cab took off fast and looks good. The Avante yeast finished my ferment a day earlier than I had planned so be aware. You may be pressing on Friday.

What's in the barrel?


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Your cab took off fast and looks good. The Avante yeast finished my ferment a day earlier than I had planned so be aware. You may be pressing on Friday.
> 
> What's in the barrel?



Thanks for the heads up. After all it’s Not only the same strain, but a portion from the same bag! Thanks again for that. 
Dosed nutrients and pitched the mlb tonight. As planned I innoculated 6gal of the “Family” Red as well- leaving the demi alone. Trying for some
1st hand MLF comparisons. 
The barrel has ~1/3 of my Chilean Malbec from this past spring. I did the D80/254 combo and just blended. Will run all through eventually. It’s my 1st barrel. Super excited to keep it goin. Planning another for this cab too.


----------



## Ajmassa

Had a glass of the family red Muscat blend tonight. Pulled some to make room for mlb. 
Taste and color is right on the money so far. My palate isn’t too refined- but I can pick out our family blend a mile away. It’s a good feeling to have a plan start coming to fruition.


----------



## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Had a glass of the family red Muscat blend tonight. Pulled some to make room for mlb.
> Taste and color is right on the money so far. My palate isn’t too refined- but I can pick out our family blend a mile away. It’s a good feeling to have a plan start coming to fruition. View attachment 51708


Nice one AJ. its looking really good!


----------



## stickman

You don't need any age on that, looks ready to drink to me!


----------



## CK55

The thing that surprises me is the color is really light, I had imagined that it would have been a bit darker.


----------



## Craiger

I've been enjoying reading about your journey with your family blend. I made a similar blend in 2016, it was from an old Papagni Guide to Home Grapes and Wine pamphlet I had sitting around. I just had a couple of slight variations to yours on mine: 25% each of Grenache, Zinfandel, Alicante, and Muscat. The other variation was that I did add my own yeast, but ironically I've been making wine for about 8 years and that was the first time I didn't go with a natural ferment. I thought the Alicante would really darken things up, by mine was a similar color to yours in that it was pretty light. 

I hope it continues to go well with you! I love the tradition of wine making. It's cool when things like your family blend continue on.


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Transferred and pressed the other night. Final gravity is ~.996. I used my pvc ‘gajillion hole’r’ within a zip-tied nylon bag. Fastened a better base to the pipe this time. Could not have went any smoother. Got about 16gal pumping w/o needing to shift or adjust anything. Filled the demi and 1/4 of the 6.5gal carboy. Loaded skins. Couple more gal of free run. And about 1gal of press. *what was once a huge struggle, separating skins from wine, is now a cakewalk. Love that little DIY tool.
> Much lighter color than expected. But as I finished working the demi had started to settle showing the color I anticipated. Looks like it will be higher than average lees loss too. We’ll see. Racking off in a couple days.
> Everybody digs pictures. So here’s a few from pressing.
> -1st pic is all the cleaning and prep work. Regardless of making an ideal sink setup- cleaning and prepping is still a huge pain in the ass!View attachment 51177
> 
> 
> -A couple pics of the ‘gajillion hole’r’ at work.
> View attachment 51178
> 
> View attachment 51179
> 
> 
> -couple action shots of my press
> View attachment 51180
> 
> View attachment 51181
> 
> 
> -the yield
> View attachment 51182



AJmassa5983

I love the idea of that gajillion hole r did you come up with that? You should try and sell that. I noticed your press is on casters? Doesn’t it slide when you crank it? Or do you have locking mechanisms on it.


----------



## celladwella

celladwella said:


> AJmassa5983
> 
> I love the idea of that gajillion hole r did you come up with that? You should try and sell that. I noticed your press is on casters? Doesn’t it slide when you crank it? Or do you have locking mechanisms on it.



Btw love this thread great story 

Lou


----------



## Ajmassa

celladwella said:


> AJmassa5983
> 
> I love the idea of that gajillion hole r did you come up with that? You should try and sell that. I noticed your press is on casters? Doesn’t it slide when you crank it? Or do you have locking mechanisms on it.



I used castors with locks. It didn’t slide enough to be an issue. But the weight on the feet was bending the metal. I already removed em. Back to the drawing board to make it mobile w/o a full dolly. 

And I’m not clever enough to come up with the gajillion holer. I first asked and learned of it in the link underneath. Seemed like everyone chimed in with their own versions. There’s another thread specific to the strainer but I couldn’t find it to post the link. Works even better when the cap is left in place. 
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?threads/Separating-skins-for-transfer?.56798/


----------



## Ajmassa

Craiger said:


> I've been enjoying reading about your journey with your family blend. I made a similar blend in 2016, it was from an old Papagni Guide to Home Grapes and Wine pamphlet I had sitting around. I just had a couple of slight variations to yours on mine: 25% each of Grenache, Zinfandel, Alicante, and Muscat. The other variation was that I did add my own yeast, but ironically I've been making wine for about 8 years and that was the first time I didn't go with a natural ferment. I thought the Alicante would really darken things up, by mine was a similar color to yours in that it was pretty light.
> 
> I hope it continues to go well with you! I love the tradition of wine making. It's cool when things like your family blend continue on.



Thanks man. And that is pretty ironic about the yeast! Since I knew the wine well I anticipated the light color— and just like you and CK thought- it seems to defy logic. I really don’t know why. My best guess is that Muscat juice, even though a white, is pretty dense and doesn’t want to darken up that easy in spite of the Alicante. 
Earlier in the thread @Bts made a great observation about Muscat also balancing the ph that helps make a DRed be the stress free wine of choice for so many.


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> You don't need any age on that, looks ready to drink to me!



Right?! It’s already pretty clear 2 weeks removed from gross lees. Gonna go back to our old tradition of the “Christmas barrel tasting”. (Except the barrel part) I hope it continues to improve. Currently loaded with co2. 


At 6:00am this morning the Cabernet was rockin and rolling- cap was like 7” or 8” thick!


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I used castors with locks. It didn’t slide enough to be an issue. But the weight on the feet was bending the metal. I already removed em. Back to the drawing board to make it mobile w/o a full dolly.
> 
> And I’m not clever enough to come up with the gajillion holer. I first asked and learned of it in the link underneath. Seemed like everyone chimed in with their own versions. There’s another thread specific to the strainer but I couldn’t find it to post the link. Works even better when the cap is left in place.
> https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?threads/Separating-skins-for-transfer?.56798/



I plan on putting some anchors in the garage concrete to secure it that way. I noticed in one of your basement pics you have the same demijohn I have the blue/ grey wicker basket is that one with a spigot? I just picked up a used one and I have no idea if I can be taken out of the basket it has a white plastic tube underneath curious if you knew anything about it. Also do you use the spigot on there I was thinking of maybe adding a small piece of clear tubing to it.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Since I knew the wine well I anticipated the light color— and just like you and CK thought- it seems to defy logic. I really don’t know why. My best guess is that Muscat juice, even though a white, is pretty dense and doesn’t want to darken up that easy in spite of the Alicante.



I also thought it would be darker due to the Alicante, but, I just calculated that (by starting weight) it was 45% Muscat. That may be enough to explain it.


----------



## Ajmassa

celladwella said:


> I plan on putting some anchors in the garage concrete to secure it that way. I noticed in one of your basement pics you have the same demijohn I have the blue/ grey wicker basket is that one with a spigot? I just picked up a used one and I have no idea if I can be taken out of the basket it has a white plastic tube underneath curious if you knew anything about it. Also do you use the spigot on there I was thinking of maybe adding a small piece of clear tubing to it.



Anchor bolts work! Castors or not, and even with the ratchet system I still can rock the whole damn unit when cranking too hard. So I just don’t press hard. I’m cool with some loss. I’d just like to make it mobile for next year. 
I have 2 demis with the spigots. One is broke and not an easy replacement. And I really don’t use it since I got a vacuum pump. For samples occasionally. But normally I forget it’s even there. 
In the past we would put tubing on with a “bottling wand” and bottle that way. I probably should utilize it more. Not a bad thing to have. Flip side is they don’t come out the basket. Kind of a pain.


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> I also thought it would be darker due to the Alicante, but, I just calculated that (by starting weight) it was 45% Muscat. That may be enough to explain it.



Ive seen it debated as to whether filtering strips color on reds. But for whatever reason when this Muscat blend is filtered (just did it once few yrs back with rough and medium- not .1 steril) it was not debatable. It ended up much lighter- looking like a dark rosè. 
I can only deduce that Muscat has got some powerful compounds to keep it light.


----------



## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ive seen it debated as to whether filtering strips color on reds. But for whatever reason when this Muscat blend is filtered (just did it once few yrs back with rough and medium- not .1 steril) it was not debatable. It ended up much lighter- looking like a dark rosè.
> I can only deduce that Muscat has got some powerful compounds to keep it light.


Yeah, I know Alicante well ive got some vines. So the fact that one of the darkest grapes around didn't have a impact on the color has blown my mind. I guess I learned something from your batch of wine lol. 

The few pieces of information on my Criolla Mediana Grapes that exists anywhere including in UC Davis's collection said that it would be very light red, I also had some zinfandel vines I suspect mixed in with another mystery grape and whatever that mystery grape is turned the wine dark purple like Malbec. So I was surprised I thought I was going to get a light low tannin wine and ended up with a dark inky wine that will blow your socks off with its tannins. Makes me wonder what that mystery grape is.


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Your cab took off fast and looks good. The Avante yeast finished my ferment a day earlier than I had planned so be aware. You may be pressing on Friday.
> 
> What's in the barrel?



It’s looking like you called this one perfectly. I pitched the Avante yeast Sunday night at about 1.101ish. 
By Monday night I had a good cap and SG just starting to drop a few ticks. Dosed the malo cocktail and full FermK dose. Tues was 1/3 so I dosed a full FermO dose. [K-1g/gal O-1.5g/gal] I sometimes see written 1 dose broken up in 1/2’s. Others I read call for 2 full doses. For whatever reason I went with 2 full doses this time. 

And already 1.036 as of Wednesday afternoon. Temp has not gone above 81°. And the caps have been about a foot thick. 
Anticipating 1.010-1.015 this afternoon and under 1.000 by Friday night. The aromas from fermentation have been the cleanest I’ve ever had. Especially during 2nd half it can take on a sharper acidic type aroma. So far Avante’s been a ‘steady eddy’—- which is a reason I might not be overly concerned if I ended not pressing till Saturday.


----------



## CDrew

Sounds like we had the same ferment! I too, was quite impressed with the Avante and how it smelled during peak fermentation. Very neutral and clean. I pitched on a Sunday morning and pressed on Friday evening. Then racked off the gross lees on Sunday. I still have a tiny amount of activity-"tiny bubbles" as they say that I assume is the MLF finishing up.

Nice going!

Looking forward to your taste test report when pressing.


----------



## Mac60

Ajmassa5983 said:


> It’s looking like you called this one perfectly. I pitched the Avante yeast Sunday night at about 1.101ish.
> By Monday night I had a good cap and SG just starting to drop a few ticks. Dosed the malo cocktail and full FermK dose. Tues was 1/3 so I dosed a full FermO dose. [K-1g/gal O-1.5g/gal] I sometimes see written 1 dose broken up in 1/2’s. Others I read call for 2 full doses. For whatever reason I went with 2 full doses this time.
> 
> And already 1.036 as of Wednesday afternoon. Temp has not gone above 81°. And the caps have been about a foot thick.
> Anticipating 1.010-1.015 this afternoon and under 1.000 by Friday night. The aromas from fermentation have been the cleanest I’ve ever had. Especially during 2nd half it can take on a sharper acidic type aroma. So far Avante’s been a ‘steady eddy’—- which is a reason I might not be overly concerned if I ended not pressing till Saturday.


AJ, You dropped the Malo dry yeast in the primary? I usually wait till after I rack the Gross less off, have you had any issues doing that way? What Malo are you using? i have been using Chris Hanson CH16 which they recommended not to hydrate. Last year for me it took about 2 months to complete.
Mike


----------



## CK55

Your wine is rocking along AJ it's really got me excited lol.

My batch of wine went into secondary yesterday at 1.020. 4 days of vigorous fermentation and I can see the yeast swirling around in secondary very much active eating the last bits of sugars. I think it will be 1-3 days and it will reach final gravity.

RC-212 yeast. And the cleanest ferment I've had.


----------



## Ajmassa

Mac60 said:


> AJ, You dropped the Malo dry yeast in the primary? I usually wait till after I rack the Gross less off, have you had any issues doing that way? What Malo are you using? i have been using Chris Hanson CH16 which they recommended not to hydrate. Last year for me it took about 2 months to complete.
> Mike



Yep. And here’s how that came to be my standard practice. 
I was making seasonal juice thru my 20’s with zero winemaking knowledge. Only knew my fam’s old school ways. 
May ‘17 on total impulse I picked up a few lugs of grapes grossly underprepared and 1.5wks before my prepaid juice was in. 
My 1st solo grape batch and MLf. Not wanting to buy malo twice, I sought guidance on this forum and @Johnd suggested to co-innoculate ml directly after the yeast’s lag phase. Timing worked so I could just add the pressed skins to the juice using the active yeast & malo. 
I followed his instructions. Researched like crazy. Got the chroma kit. And @2&3 weeks both had completed mlf. And if it ain’t broke.....
This is now my 8th MLf- all coinnoculated. All finished <1 month (knock on wood). So far I’ve used VP41 and Alpha. Always rehydrated with ACTI and given malo nutes in spite of what packaging said. 
Apparently the low abv environment is a huge benefit for the bacteria. And it’s just important to properly feed both the yeast and the malo so they aren’t stealing food from each other. At least that’s what they say.


----------



## Ajmassa

CK55 said:


> Your wine is rocking along AJ it's really got me excited lol.
> 
> My batch of wine went into secondary yesterday at 1.020. 4 days of vigorous fermentation and I can see the yeast swirling around in secondary very much active eating the last bits of sugars. I think it will be 1-3 days and it will reach final gravity.
> 
> RC-212 yeast. And the cleanest ferment I've had.



That makes 2 of us!

That’s good news about the 212 since funky odors the biggest strike against it when yeast selection comes up in convo. Sounds like your on your way to healthy and dry- which is the most I could ever hope for. 

—-oh and Mac I forgot one thing. I inoculated the “family” red carboy as well. So #9 MLf but 1st sequential inoculation. Im curious to see how the cab and ‘family’ red’s mlf’s compare with each other. (Still hate not calling this wine by its actual name because of a few butthurt thin-skinned old timers. You know who you are!)


----------



## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> That makes 2 of us!
> 
> That’s good news about the 212 since funky odors the biggest strike against it when yeast selection comes up in convo. Sounds like your on your way to healthy and dry- which is the most I could ever hope for.
> 
> —-oh and Mac I forgot one thing. I inoculated the “family” red carboy as well. So #9 MLf but 1st sequential inoculation. Im curious to see how the cab and ‘family’ red’s mlf’s compare with each other. (Still hate not calling this wine by its actual name because of a few butthurt thin-skinned old timers. You know who you are!)


The 2nd day I smelled some sulfur and was like oh crap! I put more yeast nutrient and 45 minutes later it went away for good. Fermaid has saved this batch I got the lower temp range 64-73F. So that might have helped keep weird aromas down. The biggest smells I got transferring it were vegetal,earthy and tomato like straight up ripe red tomato. It was unique


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa5983 said:


> (Still hate not calling this wine by its actual name because of a few butthurt thin-skinned old timers. You know who you are!)



The guy I picked grapes with this year is Itialian. Old school California Italian family. And when he heard I wanted him to help me pick grapes, he said, "you're making [email protected] red". I told him no, we are making Italian American Red. So we're calling it I.A.R. At least the case I give to him for his help will be labled I.A.R. His mom will think that's cool. (She and I make competing Limonchello)


----------



## CK55

CDrew said:


> The guy I picked grapes with this year is Itialian. Old school California Italian family. And when he heard I wanted him to help me pick grapes, he said, "you're making [email protected] red". I told him no, we are making Italian American Red. So we're calling it I.A.R. At least the case I give to him for his help will be labled I.A.R. His mom will think that's cool. (She and I make competing Limonchello)


Lol


----------



## Ajmassa

1.007. Gonna do my best to try and press tomorrow. And I also have the I.A.Red mlf’d carboy on a heating pad now. 

Blew the head gasket on my truck. Dropping off and getting a rental tomorrow after work. Hoping I have time.


----------



## CK55

Ajmassa5983 said:


> 1.007. Gonna do my best to try and press tomorrow. And I also have the I.A.Red mlf’d carboy on a heating pad now.
> 
> Blew the head gasket on my truck. Dropping off and getting a rental tomorrow after work. Hoping I have time.


Nice lol


----------



## cmason1957

Ajmassa5983 said:


> 1.007. Gonna do my best to try and press tomorrow. And I also have the I.A.Red mlf’d carboy on a heating pad now.
> 
> Blew the head gasket on my truck. Dropping off and getting a rental tomorrow after work. Hoping I have time.


I assume by having time for something, you mean to drop the truck off. You gotta do what you gotta do with the wine, when the time is right. It's called priorities!!! [emoji16][emoji16][emoji6][emoji6][emoji485]


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> I assume by having time for something, you mean to drop the truck off. You gotta do what you gotta do with the wine, when the time is right. It's called priorities!!! [emoji16][emoji16][emoji6][emoji6][emoji485]



Lol. Na that’s exactly what I did mean. Hoping I had time to press. Nothings close and have about 3+ hours added to my day now. 
But tbh I don’t think I’ve ever actually pressed at ideal SG. Especially when it runs so quick. 
But I may just do a late night pressing anyway. My nephew is spending the night with us so I wanna take advantage of a helper. Should be interesting. He’s 7 and has ADHD. But I’ve been grooming him. Here he is helping on my 1st grape batch


----------



## cmason1957

I wouldn't know ideal SG, if it jumped up and bit me. Got a cap forming, why bother pressing, that's the motto around here. Or maybe it is really, hey I got 3 hours here, seems close enough to done, press the durn grapes. Drink some wine.

Helpers are good. ADHD, keep them busy and interested and they can be some of the best helpers around. And start them young and they will always think it is fun to help. (Now to work on my grandkids)


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> I wouldn't know ideal SG, if it jumped up and bit me. Got a cap forming, why bother pressing, that's the motto around here. Or maybe it is really, hey I got 3 hours here, seems close enough to done, press the durn grapes. Drink some wine.
> 
> Helpers are good. ADHD, keep them busy and interested and they can be some of the best helpers around. And start them young and they will always think it is fun to help. (Now to work on my grandkids)



Such a good reply Craig! 
Ideal SG? I dunno either. That was a big question for me when I started grapes- ‘when to press?’ I pretty much just go dry now or close to it, getting max days on skins. But I know many will press above 1.000. I’m sure there’s a good reason for it- but I just don’t remember what it is. 
I like your motto. When the cap becomes weaker and soggy is when I’ll stop punching solely because the skins on top makes pumping out the free run easier.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Such a good reply Craig!
> Ideal SG? I dunno either. That was a big question for me when I started grapes- ‘when to press?’ I pretty much just go dry now or close to it, getting max days on skins. But I know many will press above 1.000. I’m sure there’s a good reason for it- but I just don’t remember what it is.
> I like your motto. When the cap becomes weaker and soggy is when I’ll stop punching solely because the skins on top makes pumping out the free run easier.



Same thoughts I’m having this year, going for longer skin contact time. Today is 8 days since crush, it’ll be 10 days by the time of pressing, good bit longer than usual. I usually press earlier while there’s a good cap, it makes pumping off of the free run easier when the skins are on top, and wine on the bottom, but it’ll work out just fine.


----------



## cmason1957

Johnd said:


> Same thoughts I’m having this year, going for longer skin contact time. Today is 8 days since crush, it’ll be 10 days by the time of pressing, good bit longer than usual. I usually press earlier while there’s a good cap, it makes pumping off of the free run easier when the skins are on top, and wine on the bottom, but it’ll work out just fine.



And I always just mix free run and press. I have a ratchet press and know I can't press hard enough to cause any effect on those seeds. It's all good. I am really missing making any grape wines this fall. grumble, grumble. But my wife is right, we got so dang much now we could go a long while without making some. I do plan to start a bourbon barrel kit I convinced her we needed and that will be another let them soak in the fridge for a week or two before I pitch yeast. The 12 gallons of Amarone I did that to are tasting really nice, 6 more months of carboy and into the bottle for about 2 years.


----------



## Mac60

Johnd said:


> Same thoughts I’m having this year, going for longer skin contact time. Today is 8 days since crush, it’ll be 10 days by the time of pressing, good bit longer than usual. I usually press earlier while there’s a good cap, it makes pumping off of the free run easier when the skins are on top, and wine on the bottom, but it’ll work out just fine.


This season I went 9 days from the crush, it went dry on day 7, SG was .99 first time I went below 1.00 at press. This was one really perfect fermentation from the start, great grapes, all good numbers.
Keeping a strict regime with intro of additives, I feel made a major difference.
This is fist year I used Lallyzyme, Opti-Red, hydrated with Goferm and Ferm-K.
However I just could not get myself to co inoculate with MLB. I did have some temp spikes in the 90- 94F, I cooled it down back to 85 after about 8-10 hours. My biggest concern for co-inoculating mlb was temp control, I have always had temps reach 90 for brief periods and did not want to chance it.
Maybe next year, I was thinking of creating a cooling system using ice packs inserted into a pouch around the out side of my plastic tanks. This is what I used for a brief 


period and it did bring the temp down to 85 from 92 after about 8 hours.


----------



## Donz

Co-inoculation is all that I have ever done with the workhorse VP41. I love the fact that MLF is done quickly. Took 10 days this year.


----------



## Mac60

Donz said:


> Co-inoculation is all that I have ever done with the workhorse VP41. I love the fact that MLF is done quickly. Took 10 days this year.


What kind of temps did you hit during fermentation? I have only used CH16 Chris Hansen, its always finished but has taken up 3 months and that's a long time without S02
Mike


----------



## Donz

85 ish farenheight.


----------



## CK55

Donz said:


> 85 ish farenheight.


thats pretty warm


----------



## Donz

Inside the fermentation tank that is. Perfectly normal. 72F in the room.


----------



## CK55

Donz said:


> Inside the fermentation tank that is. Perfectly normal. 72F in the room.


Whew i was going to say that if that was your total temp then you would be pushing it. 

You had me having a heart attack for a moment.


----------



## Donz

Lol no I’m in Canada here. No need to worry about things being to warm!


----------



## CK55

Donz said:


> Lol no I’m in Canada here. No need to worry about things being to warm!


Lol, yeah well thank you for not giving me a heart attack haha.

My average temp in my house is usually 64-73F so I get rather cool fermentations. Which is a plus, it preserves the delicate floral and fruity notes in wine.


----------



## Johnd

Mac60 said:


> This season I went 9 days from the crush, it went dry on day 7, SG was .99 first time I went below 1.00 at press. This was one really perfect fermentation from the start, great grapes, all good numbers.
> Keeping a strict regime with intro of additives, I feel made a major difference.
> This is fist year I used Lallyzyme, Opti-Red, hydrated with Goferm and Ferm-K.
> However I just could not get myself to co inoculate with MLB. I did have some temp spikes in the 90- 94F, I cooled it down back to 85 after about 8-10 hours. My biggest concern for co-inoculating mlb was temp control, I have always had temps reach 90 for brief periods and did not want to chance it.
> Maybe next year, I was thinking of creating a cooling system using ice packs inserted into a pouch around the out side of my plastic tanks. This is what I used for a brief View attachment 51841
> View attachment 51842
> View attachment 51843
> period and it did bring the temp down to 85 from 92 after about 8 hours.



I’ve had temp spikes into the 90’s with mlb on board, still was finished a couple or three weeks post press. It gives me solace to get my wine sulfited quickly and into the temp controlled wine room in a barrel. Hope you’ll give it a shot one day, I’ll never go back......


----------



## Johnd

cmason1957 said:


> And I always just mix free run and press. I have a ratchet press and know I can't press hard enough to cause any effect on those seeds. It's all good. I am really missing making any grape wines this fall. grumble, grumble. But my wife is right, we got so dang much now we could go a long while without making some. I do plan to start a bourbon barrel kit I convinced her we needed and that will be another let them soak in the fridge for a week or two before I pitch yeast. The 12 gallons of Amarone I did that to are tasting really nice, 6 more months of carboy and into the bottle for about 2 years.



I mostly end up mixing the press and free run, last year was an exception, as I produced 50+ gallons for the 30 gallon barrel. Kept em separate and used my fleet of neutral 6 gallon Vadai barrels.


----------



## Ajmassa

Well without those big ass volumes the press run doesn’t end up being enough to keep separate. Although I do have a gallon of malbec press still separate for the 1st time. Doesn’t taste any different tho.


----------



## Ajmassa

Mac60 said:


> This season I went 9 days from the crush, it went dry on day 7, SG was .99 first time I went below 1.00 at press. This was one really perfect fermentation from the start, great grapes, all good numbers.
> Keeping a strict regime with intro of additives, I feel made a major difference.
> This is fist year I used Lallyzyme, Opti-Red, hydrated with Goferm and Ferm-K.
> However I just could not get myself to co inoculate with MLB. I did have some temp spikes in the 90- 94F, I cooled it down back to 85 after about 8-10 hours. My biggest concern for co-inoculating mlb was temp control, I have always had temps reach 90 for brief periods and did not want to chance it.
> Maybe next year, I was thinking of creating a cooling system using ice packs inserted into a pouch around the out side of my plastic tanks. This is what I used for a brief period and it did bring the temp down to 85 from 92 after about 8 hours.


How much of that was from the ice packs and how much from natural ferment temp timeline? 
That’s a lot of wine man! 

I keep hearing opti red mentioned in additions. Does it help a lot for big reds? I thought llayzyme exv was kinda doing that job and enough when it’s quality healthy fruit. I understand it’s all personal opinion But interested in using both next time around. And interested in your thoughts. 
I’ve used it before but only on juice pails with reused skins- trying to get the most out of them. I did however add about 1/4 dose of booster rouge to the cab just because I had a leftover packet. Doubt it did much tho. 

SG .997. Just a couple ticks above room temp. Gonna punch it and hope she comes back. If not no biggie. Will be pressing tomorrow morning- day 8 since crushing. Today ended up being a long long day.


----------



## Mac60

Johnd said:


> I’ve had temp spikes into the 90’s with mlb on board, still was finished a couple or three weeks post press. It gives me solace to get my wine sulfited quickly and into the temp controlled wine room in a barrel. Hope you’ll give it a shot one day, I’ll never go back......


Thanks John Good to know you had success at 90 temps, I used the Ice packs 2 time, once they defrosted the temp spiked back up the second round brought back down and from there it naturally dissipated. 
But with out the Ice it would have stayed at 92+ for 2 solid days. 
The room temp Garage was in 78-80. If I can control the temp and keep it below 90 I will try pitching the MLB in the primary. 
I have been reading lots on the topic. It just scared me with 160 gallons of wine, (2 vats with 70 gallons of must and 2 with 27 gallons of must) Each 350L fermenting bin really can generate a lot of heat. I did notice 2 I had maxed out at 19-1/2 lugs each got much hotter than the 2 that 8 lugs each, the smaller batches did not spike past 86F
Mike


----------



## Mac60

Ajmassa5983 said:


> How much of that was from the ice packs and how much from natural ferment temp timeline?
> That’s a lot of wine man!
> 
> I keep hearing opti red mentioned in additions. Does it help a lot for big reds? I thought llayzyme exv was kinda doing that job and enough when it’s quality healthy fruit. I understand it’s all personal opinion But interested in using both next time around. And interested in your thoughts.
> I’ve used it before but only on juice pails with reused skins- trying to get the most out of them. I did however add about 1/4 dose of booster rouge to the cab just because I had a leftover packet. Doubt it did much tho.
> 
> SG .997. Just a couple ticks above room temp. Gonna punch it and hope she comes back. If not no biggie. Will be pressing tomorrow morning- day 8 since crushing. Today ended up being a long long day. View attachment 51846


Yeah 160 gallons.... Should last a few weeks.... The color and skin maceration I got from the Llayzme EX-V and Opti-Red during AF was outstanding. Looking forward MLF completion will test on Monday to see progress. Good luck with your press tomorrow, looking good.
Mike


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I keep hearing opti red mentioned in additions. Does it help a lot for big reds? I thought llayzyme exv was kinda doing that job and enough when it’s quality healthy fruit. I understand it’s all personal opinion But interested in using both next time around. And interested in your thoughts.



So not enough experience to really know but I do know this: Last year's Primitivo came out tasting good and clean, but it's very light bodied and light colored for a wine made from very dark grapes. In bright sun, it could pass for a dark Rose. Not what I was after. So for this year, I hit up the MoreWine manual and catalog and ordered Lallzyme, Opti-Red, FT rouge and used all to make damn sure it didn't happen again. And it didn't! This years Primitivo is dark, well balanced, and nice, right out of the primary. With some oak, it should be great. So carrying this forward, I'm sticking with that plan. Did the additions on the light side of the recommendations, with more experiments to come in future years. I think the Lallzyme makes the biggest difference.

To be honest, Opti-Red looks and smells like Fermaid 0. FT Rouge looks like dark/fine sawdust.

Drinking an interesting wine as I type this-a 2015 Charbono from Renquist. It's inky, lots of depth of flavor. And an unusual grape, even in California.


----------



## Johnd

Mac60 said:


> Thanks John Good to know you had success at 90 temps, I used the Ice packs 2 time, once they defrosted the temp spiked back up the second round brought back down and from there it naturally dissipated.
> But with out the Ice it would have stayed at 92+ for 2 solid days.
> The room temp Garage was in 78-80. If I can control the temp and keep it below 90 I will try pitching the MLB in the primary.
> I have been reading lots on the topic. It just scared me with 160 gallons of wine, (2 vats with 70 gallons of must and 2 with 27 gallons of must) Each 350L fermenting bin really can generate a lot of heat. I did notice 2 I had maxed out at 19-1/2 lugs each got much hotter than the 2 that 8 lugs each, the smaller batches did not spike past 86F
> Mike



I run my red ferments in my house, and have a bit more control over temps by adjusting the AC up or down. Whites in the wine room at 55. If you ever get worried about those temp spikes again, try using some dry ice. It will knock temps back, won’t water down your wine, and just emits some CO2, which you’re producing anyway. Not a good solution for control over the whole process, but will knock out spikes for you.


----------



## Ajmassa

Italian American Red

Have 1 full demi and 6gal carboy. It’s been racked off the gross lees and chillin out. When I coinnoculated the Cab last week I also inoculated the “family red” carboy w/Acti-ml and then opti malo. Sat for about a week at 64°-68° before I put the heating pad on it. Once at 74°/75° there was real nice visual MLF activity. I’ll be taking a baseline chroma test on all the new wines later this week. But If the Carboy ends up significantly better- you can bet your ass I’ll be inoculating the demi too. No so2 in the meantime. 
Pretty much standard MLf visuals I think.


----------



## Ajmassa

Cabernet
Saturday I pumped out the free run filling the demijohn. Had a lot goin on Saturday and lots of prep so decided to press Sunday(protected skins with some plastic overnight)
Barely enough room but got em all loaded. Pressed. Broke up entire cake and pressed again. Skins not typical mush. I wonder if my enzymes lost potency since packet was leftover from May. All total I got 15gal of free run and pressed out another 8 gal. Yielding 23 gallons from ~30gal of must from 288lbs of grapes. 
It’s been .994 since late Friday. By Monday night MLF was visible. The wine with heavy lees I noticed if I gave the carboy a little shimmy then the MLf torpedos would blast out leaving a trail off lees. Always thought that looked pretty cool. 
I can only gauge from my own experiences, but with grape wines I notice a point soon after AF when the wine already tastes good enough to drink. Lasts Couple weeks maybe. So when another 1/2 gal of very clear wine dropped out while I was cleaning—-it paired perfectly with my late lasagna dinner. Would have never known it was only 8 days old!






Just made it! Got it all in one shot. 



....yeah, I know. No judgements pls!


The yield (minus 1 demi and the white)


This is why I use plain water until after MLf is complete!


----------



## mainshipfred

I've also been using Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge as well as rehydrating with Go Ferm Protect and add Fermaid O at or close to 1/3 sugar depletion. My ferments are cool with the wine in the 70-80* range but I ferment in 6 gallon buckets. Still debating the co inoculation thing though and haven't done it yet.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I've also been using Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge as well as rehydrating with Go Ferm Protect and add Fermaid O at or close to 1/3 sugar depletion. My ferments are cool with the wine in the 70-80* range but I ferment in 6 gallon buckets. Still debating the co inoculation thing though and haven't done it yet.



It’s fun experimenting but I hate not having a control batch to know the actual differences. — I read GF Protect is more for hydrating a yeast starter for stuck ferments. Tho I did use once by accident. The world did not end. 
I kinda backed off the extra tannin additions this time (rouge, opti-red etc..) based off advice from JohnT. When I met up with him I had the pleasure of sampling wines right from the tanks and barrels. The wines were quite impressive, and the color was such a vibrant brilliant purple hue. And he added nothing. Said if he’s got real nice healthy fruit then isn’t concerned with any additions- enzymes included. Everyone’s got their style. Just trying to find my way!


----------



## Donz

I’ve never added any enzymes and always had nice colour. Always 7 days on the skins though.

You dinner looks good!


----------



## mainshipfred

I'm with you on the control batch. I just don't make enough of one varietal to do it. I never used to use Go Ferm. First just sprinkled on the yeast them started rehydrating with water Then after helping out at the winery I saw they used Go Ferm. To tell you the truth it's just fun watching the yeast grow in it and having nice cap the next morning is kind of a neat feeling. I use Opti Red with the Lallzyme because all the literature says they work well together and breaking down the cell walls with enzymes can't hurt. The FT Rouge is supposed to be for tannin structure but probably not necessary if the fruit is good. It's just a little more insurance for me. As you said it's a style thing and I'm still trying to find mine as well.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I'm with you on the control batch. I just don't make enough of one varietal to do it. I never used to use Go Ferm. First just sprinkled on the yeast them started rehydrating with water Then after helping out at the winery I saw they used Go Ferm. To tell you the truth it's just fun watching the yeast grow in it and having nice cap the next morning is kind of a neat feeling. I use Opti Red with the Lallzyme because all the literature says they work well together and breaking down the cell walls with enzymes can't hurt. The FT Rouge is supposed to be for tannin structure but probably not necessary if the fruit is good. It's just a little more insurance for me. As you said it's a style thing and I'm still trying to find mine as well.



I was talkin specifically GoFerm-Protect vs just GoFerm. I’ve got both and used both without thought until I realized they weren’t actually the same thing. 
And yea normally I use the tannin too. Actually I did this time as well. Just as an extra. Had an 8g packet of booster rouge leftover so I just tossed it in. 
Aside from Morewine- if you check out https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/ they’ve got an insane amount of tannins they offer.


----------



## Mac60

mainshipfred said:


> I've also been using Lallzyme EX, Opti Red and FT Rouge as well as rehydrating with Go Ferm Protect and add Fermaid O at or close to 1/3 sugar depletion. My ferments are cool with the wine in the 70-80* range but I ferment in 6 gallon buckets. Still debating the co inoculation thing though and haven't done it yet.


Fred,
It's going to be very hard for me to change my schedule that I followed this year. It was perfection every step. The only issues I had was temperature control with large fermentation tubs, they do get hot 90-94F.
I did need to cool them down. I never got any So2 gas, Using Ferm-K (2) additions using split batches D254 and D80 fermented dry in 7 days, let it sit with skins another 2 days. MLF complete in 13 days after adding CH16. Its really hard to mess with success. I documented every step, temp and addition. Going to Rack and So2 in 3 Weeks I'll get some pictures and have a good feel for the taste, bu it taste good right now.


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Cabernet
> Saturday I pumped out the free run filling the demijohn. Had a lot goin on Saturday and lots of prep so decided to press Sunday(protected skins with some plastic overnight)
> Barely enough room but got em all loaded. Pressed. Broke up entire cake and pressed again. Skins not typical mush. I wonder if my enzymes lost potency since packet was leftover from May. All total I got 15gal of free run and pressed out another 8 gal. Yielding 23 gallons from ~30gal of must from 288lbs of grapes.
> It’s been .994 since late Friday. By Monday night MLF was visible. The wine with heavy lees I noticed if I gave the carboy a little shimmy then the MLf torpedos would blast out leaving a trail off lees. Always thought that looked pretty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> I can only gauge from my own experiences, but with grape wines I notice a point soon after AF when the wine already tastes good enough to drink. Lasts Couple weeks maybe. So when another 1/2 gal of very clear wine dropped out while I was cleaning—-it paired perfectly with my late lasagna dinner. Would have never known it was only 8 days old!
> View attachment 51911
> 
> View attachment 51912
> 
> View attachment 51913
> 
> Just made it! Got it all in one shot.
> View attachment 51914
> View attachment 51915
> 
> ....yeah, I know. No judgements pls!
> View attachment 51916
> 
> The yield (minus 1 demi and the white)
> View attachment 51917
> 
> This is why I use plain water until after MLf is complete!





So this is all awesome. The Barbie plate was a surprise. Do you have daughters? Lol. There has to be a story there. I mean, why does a New Jersey dude, eat off a Barbie plate? Not judging, just curious. I do have a daughter and have eaten off ceramic creations of all types. 

I have noted the same thing, that after messing with the wine for a day, drinking that wine, even though immature, is great with dinner that same night. Imagine how good it will be in a year (or two). But Lasagna is a favorite and would make any wine outstanding.

Realize you could use Star San in your lock, which even if sucked into the wine, will not alter it's flavor or SO2 level. The other "S" style of fermentation lock works better anyway. Even better are the 1 way bungs. I've pretty much gone 100% there after the first day or two.


----------



## Ajmassa

Lol. Yup. She just turned 11. 

And I’m down to the bottom of the drawer for airlocks. Using all the ones mentioned. 
I only use water in the airlock till after MLf. Them kmeta. Once co2 is all gone I’ll use the vented if any are available.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I was talkin specifically GoFerm-Protect vs just GoFerm. I’ve got both and used both without thought until I realized they weren’t actually the same thing.
> And yea normally I use the tannin too. Actually I did this time as well. Just as an extra. Had an 8g packet of booster rouge leftover so I just tossed it in.
> Aside from Morewine- if you check out https://www.lodiwinelabs.com/ they’ve got an insane amount of tannins they offer.



First time I've looked at Lodi Labs site. Whole new learning curve since they have products other then Scott's and Lalleman products.


----------



## mainshipfred

Mac60 said:


> Fred,
> It's going to be very hard for me to change my schedule that I followed this year. It was perfection every step. The only issues I had was temperature control with large fermentation tubs, they do get hot 90-94F.
> I did need to cool them down. I never got any So2 gas, Using Ferm-K (2) additions using split batches D254 and D80 fermented dry in 7 days, let it sit with skins another 2 days. MLF complete in 13 days after adding CH16. Its really hard to mess with success. I documented every step, temp and addition. Going to Rack and So2 in 3 Weeks I'll get some pictures and have a good feel for the taste, bu it taste good right now.



I'm with you on regime thing and my protocol is similar to yours except for the batch sizes. Being new to this it was only this past spring that I felt comfortable with what I was doing, this fall even more so. Whether my methods are valid or a waist of time only time will tell. I can't imagine how the use of additives can hurt, just insurance for me.


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Cabernet
> Saturday I pumped out the free run filling the demijohn. Had a lot goin on Saturday and lots of prep so decided to press Sunday(protected skins with some plastic overnight)
> Barely enough room but got em all loaded. Pressed. Broke up entire cake and pressed again. Skins not typical mush. I wonder if my enzymes lost potency since packet was leftover from May. All total I got 15gal of free run and pressed out another 8 gal. Yielding 23 gallons from ~30gal of must from 288lbs of grapes.
> It’s been .994 since late Friday. By Monday night MLF was visible. The wine with heavy lees I noticed if I gave the carboy a little shimmy then the MLf torpedos would blast out leaving a trail off lees. Always thought that looked pretty cool.
> I can only gauge from my own experiences, but with grape wines I notice a point soon after AF when the wine already tastes good enough to drink. Lasts Couple weeks maybe. So when another 1/2 gal of very clear wine dropped out while I was cleaning—-it paired perfectly with my late lasagna dinner. Would have never known it was only 8 days old!
> View attachment 51911
> 
> View attachment 51912
> 
> View attachment 51913
> 
> Just made it! Got it all in one shot.
> View attachment 51914
> View attachment 51915
> 
> ....yeah, I know. No judgements pls!
> View attachment 51916
> 
> The yield (minus 1 demi and the white)
> View attachment 51917
> 
> This is why I use plain water until after MLf is complete!




AJ you use the AiO wine pump
With the demijohns? I thought someone said you can’t something about glass being thin. Any problems with using on that ?


----------



## Ajmassa

celladwella said:


> AJ you use the AiO wine pump
> With the demijohns? I thought someone said you can’t something about glass being thin. Any problems with using on that ?



Yup “someone” did say that— the creator/owner Steve! (@vacuumpumpman). I’m pretty sure that’s just to cover his ass in case of extreme circumstances tho. 
He told me if I chose to go against that advice* then he recommended 1/2” tubing instead of 3/8” to ease the pressure. 
All that said—- I’ve been using the AIO on both carboys and demijohns since I got it with no issue. I use the same 3/8” tubing for both, and just switch out the bungs and have longer 3/8” racking canes for the demijohns.


----------



## Ajmassa

1 issue I had was the solid bung. The first one I made for the demi was a solid #11 with an airlock hole. I drilled another hole to mimic the AIO carboy bung. But one of my demi’s openings is a hair bigger and under vacuum it pulled the bung way down into the neck. YUUUGE PIA to remove! 
After that little debacle I bought the “universal” style #11 bung since they have a flange around the tops. Smooth sailing since then. Here’s a pic of the universal type I would suggest. And next to it is the initial one I drilled.


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Yup “someone” did say that— the creator/owner Steve! (@vacuumpumpma). I’m pretty sure that’s just to cover his ass in case of extreme circumstances tho.
> He told me if I chose to go against that advice* then he recommended 1/2” tubing instead of 3/8” to ease the pressure.
> All that said—- I’ve been using the AIO on both carboys and demijohns since I got it with no issue. I use the same 3/8” tubing for both, and just switch out the bungs and have longer 3/8” racking canes for the demijohns.



Thanks for the information. At least now I won’t have to bother my friends to help me lift those damn things anymore!


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> 1 issue I had was the solid bung. The first one I made for the demi was a solid #11 with an airlock hole. I drilled another hole to mimic the AIO carboy bung. But one of my demi’s openings is a hair bigger and under vacuum it pulled the bung way down into the neck. YUUUGE PIA to remove!
> After that little debacle I bought the “universal” style #11 bung since they have a flange around the tops. Smooth sailing since then. Here’s a pic of the universal type I would suggest. And next to it is the initial one I drilled. View attachment 51964



Thanks again I can see that being the case I have pushed the one on the right in on more than one occasion


----------



## Ajmassa

celladwella said:


> Thanks for the information. At least now I won’t have to bother my friends to help me lift those damn things anymore!



Yeah man. I avoid lifting those at all costs. Every so often it happens tho. Not a 1 man job. Though I can lower it from table to floor if needed. 
What’s cool about the AIO tho is you don’t ‘have’ to rack low to high. You can transfer side to side too. Theoretically never having to move a full one when racking.


----------



## Ajmassa

I racked the cab off the heavy lees this weekend. The main thing I wanted to see was the color extraction I end up with- but still gotta wait on that. Still looks light but I’m attributing that to all the co2 and I’ve kept the temps up for MLf so there’s still solids in suspension. Really hoping she darkens up. I also ran a baseline chroma test on all wines last night— will get to compare the coinnoculation from sequential of the family red with the results. 
Only thing not racked yet is the demi cab. With no open demijohns its a hassle. But this morning the wine gods threw me a bone. I was given another 54L demi- clear glass and a spigot! That’ll be full of wine tonight after cleaning! An old family friend finally brought it into work to give me this morning. He’s a cop walkin the beat on Jewelers Row and I have a job in the area. Couldn’t have timed it better.


----------



## Zintrigue

Hey AJ, nice to see all your hard work. Thanks so much for all the pictures and information. I've never done an all grape ferment before, but your pictures and instructions give me the courage to try one day. Just have to get my hands on some grapes after we're done making sure all the doctors in the area have steak and lobster for dinner. 

Love your lab; winemaking goals right there. I'd try to bribe my way into taking over half the garage, but not sure I'd want man glitter (saw dust) all over my equipment. 

And my oldest daughter is 10, so I totally get the princess plate thing. Haha


----------



## CDrew

Ajmassa5983 said:


> The main thing I wanted to see was the color extraction I end up with- but still gotta wait on that. Still looks light but I’m attributing that to all the co2 and I’ve kept the temps up for MLf so there’s still solids in suspension. Really hoping she darkens up. I also ran a baseline chroma test on all wines last night— will get to compare the coinnoculation from sequential of the family red with the results.
> .



Interesting about the color (or lack of). I had a light color cab last year and a sort of light Primitivo/Zin. Using enzymes Lallemand EX and EX-V totally solved the color issue this year. And after this experience, I am 99% sure all the big commercial wineries use enzymes. Now the '17 Cab tastes pretty good, but if you had a glass of it you'd say it's light in color. I consider it a flaw. All red wine looks dark in the carboy once the solids settle out, but in the glass-not so much.

Regarding Demijon size containers-I was debating Demijons vs flex tanks vs Intellitanks. Went with the intelliTanks for the flexibility and sanitary standard fittings and for the fact they are rated to vacuum rack into them (because 15 gallons is too heavy to safely lift alone).


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Interesting about the color (or lack of). I had a light color cab last year and a sort of light Primitivo/Zin. Using enzymes Lallemand EX and EX-V totally solved the color issue this year. And after this experience, I am 99% sure all the big commercial wineries use enzymes. Now the '17 Cab tastes pretty good, but if you had a glass of it you'd say it's light in color. I consider it a flaw. All red wine looks dark in the carboy once the solids settle out, but in the glass-not so much.


It was more of a fakeout like I anticipated. Just racked the free run and much much darker. Concern over that aspect is completely gone now. The pressed wine I kept temps up a little more and I’m sure will darken in time as I let it cool to room temp. 
At once point I was racking and went to transfer the 5L jug I had. Right away I was like “damn! Look how dark and purple and clear this one is!” And then I realized I grabbed the wrong jug! Lol. Was malbec from spring. Just a little. No harm done. Just funny.


----------



## Ajmassa

Zintrigue said:


> Hey AJ, nice to see all your hard work. Thanks so much for all the pictures and information. I've never done an all grape ferment before, but your pictures and instructions give me the courage to try one day. Just have to get my hands on some grapes after we're done making sure all the doctors in the area have steak and lobster for dinner.
> 
> Love your lab; winemaking goals right there. I'd try to bribe my way into taking over half the garage, but not sure I'd want man glitter (saw dust) all over my equipment.
> 
> And my oldest daughter is 10, so I totally get the princess plate thing. Haha



Very cool. I really have no intention here other than shooting the breeze about winemaking. Discussing different aspects or wherever the convo ends up going just for the fun of it. 
I hope you do end up going the grape route at least once or twice just for the experience. We joined here similar time but kinda shifted to our own comfort zones. Such a great hobby with so many options. Which I think is cool. And Olivia also has some fun down here once in a while. Here she is showing me a cool trick with the panoramic setting. It’s a little distorted- but was a fun night. She’s not helping often so try to enjoy the times that she does.


----------



## Ajmassa

Rock and roll. Baseline test looks damn close. I’ll check again in a month. 
What’s interesting is the co-innoc cab looks the same as the sequential innoc “family” red batch on the left. And obviously you can see the batch that I withheld the MLB on showing a bright malic spot.


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Transferred and pressed the other night. Final gravity is ~.996. I used my pvc ‘gajillion hole’r’ within a zip-tied nylon bag. Fastened a better base to the pipe this time. Could not have went any smoother. Got about 16gal pumping w/o needing to shift or adjust anything. Filled the demi and 1/4 of the 6.5gal carboy. Loaded skins. Couple more gal of free run. And about 1gal of press. *what was once a huge struggle, separating skins from wine, is now a cakewalk. Love that little DIY tool.
> Much lighter color than expected. But as I finished working the demi had started to settle showing the color I anticipated. Looks like it will be higher than average lees loss too. We’ll see. Racking off in a couple days.
> Everybody digs pictures. So here’s a few from pressing.
> -1st pic is all the cleaning and prep work. Regardless of making an ideal sink setup- cleaning and prepping is still a huge pain in the ass!View attachment 51177
> 
> 
> -A couple pics of the ‘gajillion hole’r’ at work.
> View attachment 51178
> 
> View attachment 51179
> 
> 
> -couple action shots of my press
> View attachment 51180
> 
> View attachment 51181
> 
> 
> -the yield
> View attachment 51182



Ajmassa5983 I sent you a pm.


----------



## Ajmassa

Ok now. First off quick disclaimer — I’m kinda drunk. So ya know.. grain of salt and all that.
I gotta admit I’ve been pretty busy and had gotten a little lazy keeping tabs on the wine - and even lazier big picture- I’ve got some wine at 15 months just aging ready to bottle for a while now. 
So tonight ran some tests and sampled* I think 8 different wines. No real duds and even a few gems. I’ll take it!
But I’ll stay on topic. The old school family red. Couple months in now. Got 15gal w/o MLf and 6gal w/ MLf. Clockin in at 3.5 and 3.6(MLf).
I sampled this one last after some new cab, some Malbec from barrel& carboy, Sauv blanc, Syrah, Tuscan, chateuneff du pape etc etc. so was all over the place with the taste buds.
But yo— all I gotta say is MAKE THIS WINE! It’s so different than a standard red. There’s a lot of flavor going on with that Muscat base. And just really really enjoyable. As soon as I tasted it i thought “yep. That’s it. That’s exactly what I remember”. But better. (Since I actually learned myself some since it was last made from juice!) and also since we never aged it too much it’s already close to that point.
Definitely a noticeable difference from MLf to no mlf. I wish I could describe it better than this. But the non MLf was just less harsh- less of a kick. But still not gonna MLf the demi. Because I kinda like the kick. And will see how they age differently. Both equally enjoyable.
I say “make this wine” for a bunch of reasons. It’s not typical- which is fun. Lots of flavor but easy drinkin- perfect with any meal. Whether Big red or sweeter red lovers- both can enjoy it.
It was cheap. (Cheapest grapes available to me) and it was easy. No BS involved. I bumped sugar. That was it. And I know the "Italian family" red wines get a bad rap. Like it’s “a table wine” or something. But whatever. It’s good. And It drinks young. I wish I had a better vocabulary to describe it in more detail. On the high side of medium bodied now. Dry on the tongue and finish. But with a sweet/fruity “Muscat-ish” undertone throughout that just kinda works. Pretty sure you could toss any similar blend together and it would end up finding itself.
This one was
45% Muscat
30% Alicante
25% Zinfandel

Probably bottling by around March I think. Salutè


----------



## sour_grapes

Sounds good! 

In addition, I will say, for a man who says that his post is written while drunk, you did quite well! It was coherent and I did not notice any misspellings. I grade your liver at A to A+


----------



## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> In addition, I will say, for a man who says that his post is written while drunk, you did quite well! It was coherent and I did not notice any misspellings. I grade your liver at A to A+



I believe the correct term should have been “buzzing” [emoji6] even managed to do some lbs to % math too!


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ok now. First off quick disclaimer — I’m kinda drunk. So ya know.. grain of salt and all that.
> I gotta admit I’ve been pretty busy and had gotten a little lazy keeping tabs on the wine - and even lazier big picture- I’ve got some wine at 15 months just aging ready to bottle for a while now.
> So tonight ran some tests and sampled* I think 8 different wines. No real duds and even a few gems. I’ll take it!
> But I’ll stay on topic. The old school family red. Couple months in now. Got 15gal w/o MLf and 6gal w/ MLf. Clockin in at 3.5 and 3.6(MLf).
> I sampled this one last after some new cab, some Malbec from barrel& carboy, Sauv blanc, Syrah, Tuscan, chateuneff du pape etc etc. so was all over the place with the taste buds.
> But yo— all I gotta say is MAKE THIS WINE! It’s so different than a standard red. There’s a lot of flavor going on with that Muscat base. And just really really enjoyable. As soon as I tasted it i thought “yep. That’s it. That’s exactly what I remember”. But better. (Since I actually learned myself some since it was last made from juice!) and also since we never aged it too much it’s already close to that point.
> Definitely a noticeable difference from MLf to no mlf. I wish I could describe it better than this. But the non MLf was just less harsh- less of a kick. But still not gonna MLf the demi. Because I kinda like the kick. And will see how they age differently. Both equally enjoyable.
> I say “make this wine” for a bunch of reasons. It’s not typical- which is fun. Lots of flavor but easy drinkin- perfect with any meal. Whether Big red or sweeter red lovers- both can enjoy it.
> It was cheap. (Cheapest grapes available to me) and it was easy. No BS involved. I bumped sugar. That was it. And I know the "Italian family" red wines get a bad rap. Like it’s “a table wine” or something. But whatever. It’s good. And It drinks young. I wish I had a better vocabulary to describe it in more detail. On the high side of medium bodied now. Dry on the tongue and finish. But with a sweet/fruity “Muscat-ish” undertone throughout that just kinda works. Pretty sure you could toss any similar blend together and it would end up finding itself.
> This one was
> 45% Muscat
> 30% Alicante
> 25% Zinfandel
> 
> Probably bottling by around March I think. Salutè



This is great. Question when you say Muscat are you talking about the green grape moscato or something different? Where did you get the chateanau du pape? I’m guessing a kit?


----------



## Ajmassa

celladwella said:


> This is great. Question when you say Muscat are you talking about the green grape moscato or something different? Where did you get the chateanau du pape? I’m guessing a kit?



I’m not really sure what you mean. Just the typical white wine-green grape Muscat/moscato/muscato - always assumed the spellings were interchangeable. But who knows- I’m learning new stuff about wine all the time. 



And the duPape was a juice bucket actually. I made that impulse decision in the moment- had no idea what I was buying. Just thought it sounded cool. Researched while I waited at loading dock for my “Pope juice”(as they called it)Lol
Grenache base with like 20 other potential varietals? Sounds good to me! And I also tossed in some merlot, cab, & Sangiovese grapes from my Tuscan blend I was doing that day. 
Will be drinking that one with the family over The holidays most likely (just gotta make time to bottle)


----------



## Mac60

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ok now. First off quick disclaimer — I’m kinda drunk. So ya know.. grain of salt and all that.
> I gotta admit I’ve been pretty busy and had gotten a little lazy keeping tabs on the wine - and even lazier big picture- I’ve got some wine at 15 months just aging ready to bottle for a while now.
> So tonight ran some tests and sampled* I think 8 different wines. No real duds and even a few gems. I’ll take it!
> But I’ll stay on topic. The old school family red. Couple months in now. Got 15gal w/o MLf and 6gal w/ MLf. Clockin in at 3.5 and 3.6(MLf).
> I sampled this one last after some new cab, some Malbec from barrel& carboy, Sauv blanc, Syrah, Tuscan, chateuneff du pape etc etc. so was all over the place with the taste buds.
> But yo— all I gotta say is MAKE THIS WINE! It’s so different than a standard red. There’s a lot of flavor going on with that Muscat base. And just really really enjoyable. As soon as I tasted it i thought “yep. That’s it. That’s exactly what I remember”. But better. (Since I actually learned myself some since it was last made from juice!) and also since we never aged it too much it’s already close to that point.
> Definitely a noticeable difference from MLf to no mlf. I wish I could describe it better than this. But the non MLf was just less harsh- less of a kick. But still not gonna MLf the demi. Because I kinda like the kick. And will see how they age differently. Both equally enjoyable.
> I say “make this wine” for a bunch of reasons. It’s not typical- which is fun. Lots of flavor but easy drinkin- perfect with any meal. Whether Big red or sweeter red lovers- both can enjoy it.
> It was cheap. (Cheapest grapes available to me) and it was easy. No BS involved. I bumped sugar. That was it. And I know the "Italian family" red wines get a bad rap. Like it’s “a table wine” or something. But whatever. It’s good. And It drinks young. I wish I had a better vocabulary to describe it in more detail. On the high side of medium bodied now. Dry on the tongue and finish. But with a sweet/fruity “Muscat-ish” undertone throughout that just kinda works. Pretty sure you could toss any similar blend together and it would end up finding itself.
> This one was
> 45% Muscat
> 30% Alicante
> 25% Zinfandel
> 
> Probably bottling by around March I think. Salutè


AJ, I have always used a little Muscat in my Family Zinfandel typically its only 5-6% however this year I dropped it down to 2-1/2 % you still can taste it in the wine but its just a hint really give it a nice taste.
Muscat has a very distinct flavor I agree with you its a fantastic everyday drinking wine, goes with everything.
Mike


----------



## celladwella

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’m not really sure what you mean. Just the typical white wine-green grape Muscat/moscato/muscato - always assumed the spellings were interchangeable. But who knows- I’m learning new stuff about wine all the time.
> View attachment 52221
> View attachment 52222
> 
> And the duPape was a juice bucket actually. I made that impulse decision in the moment- had no idea what I was buying. Just thought it sounded cool. Researched while I waited at loading dock for my “Pope juice”(as they called it)Lol
> Grenache base with like 20 other potential varietals? Sounds good to me! And I also tossed in some merlot, cab, & Sangiovese grapes from my Tuscan blend I was doing that day.
> Will be drinking that one with the family over The holidays most likely (just gotta make time to bottle)



Okay yes I know which one variety that is have a great Thanksgiving


----------



## Ajmassa

Just a little update on this wine


I’ve had 8 of the 20 gal in a barrel since Christmas. Went down to sulphite and top up tonight so I did a little tasting as well. 


2 months in this Hungarian barrel with 1 previous 10 week run of another wine under its belt. Couldn’t be more pleased. 

The Muscat previously took up the majority of the profile but now it seems to have really fallen into better balance. I mean, it’s still very much there, but now able to appreciate the other aspects of the wine as well. 

It went dry but the muscat adds a perceived sweetness to it— not too much though and extremely enjoyable. Color and clarity seems right on point too. Looking forward to see what another 2 months does.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Just a little update on this wine
> 
> 
> I’ve had 8 of the 20 gal in a barrel since Christmas. Went down to sulphite and top up tonight so I did a little tasting as well.
> 
> 
> 2 months in this Hungarian barrel with 1 previous 10 week run of another wine under its belt. Couldn’t be more pleased.
> 
> The Muscat previously took up the majority of the profile but now it seems to have really fallen into better balance. I mean, it’s still very much there, but now able to appreciate the other aspects of the wine as well.
> 
> It went dry but the muscat adds a perceived sweetness to it— not too much though and extremely enjoyable. Color and clarity seems right on point too. Looking forward to see what another 2 months does.
> 
> View attachment 53639
> View attachment 53640



Looks good AJ, it seems like you got the barrel to stop leaking as well.


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Looks good AJ, it seems like you got the barrel to stop leaking as well.



Yessir. She was certainly a stubborn one at first. But smooth sailing at this point.


----------



## Ajmassa

Update on our old “Family Red” muscat/Alicante/Zinfandel field blend.

I bottled this wine around Christmas. Blended in ~15% of some 2018 cab I made too. But even with the cab the fruity muscat base wouldn’t budge. Not what I set out to make but good nonetheless.

fast forward to now.
I never found myself reaching for this one. Then last wknd someone popped a cork late night. ..... after tasting it I thought something was wrong.
We had been drinking all night so thought maybe my taste buds were lying to me— Or maybe I mislabeled a bottle (which easily happens when ya don’t use labels) . Because this was NOT the same wine! I needed to confirm this another day while sober.
Popped another cork tonight and I’ll be goddamned! This wine has fallen into place moreso than I realized it even could!
No more muscat overtaking the profile. Now mellowed out and living in harmony with the others. Well balanced. Smooth drinking
This was EXACTLY what I set out to make. Took some time but now at 1.5 yrs this is a wine I look forward to drinking and giving out!


----------



## Rocky

Ajmassa said:


> Update on our old “Family Red” muscat/Alicante/Zinfandel field blend.
> 
> View attachment 61735



Hey, AJ, I read through this thread with great interest because we used to make a similar wine back in the day when my father, uncles and grandfather all worked together. We did a co-fermented blend of 75% Zinfandel (or Alicante depending on the quality of the grapes but most often Zin) and 25% Muscat. We would make the wine in early October when the grapes came in from California (we were in Pittsburgh at the time). The wine would be in the working barrels for 10 days or so and then transferred to 53 gallon whiskey barrels to finish fermentation. We would cap those barrels in early December and the wine would be drinkable around Easter but much better in a year or so. Once we opened a barrel, we did not "bottle" the wine, we "jugged" it in 1 gallon jugs, with a cork, with wax melted on top of the cork and with plastic tape over the corks. We stored the jugs in a special corner of the basement that was completely under ground and packed sand around the bottles to stack them and keep them at a cooler temperature. 

I have been able to make a wine that approaches our family wine using Zinfandel and Muscat juice buckets or kits. I am pleased to hear you had great success.


----------



## ibglowin

Well done AJ! Time and or procrastination is your friend in wine making quite often!



Ajmassa said:


> Update on our old “Family Red” muscat/Alicante/Zinfandel field blend.
> 
> This was EXACTLY what I set out to make. Took some time but now at 1.5 yrs this is a wine I look forward to drinking and giving out!


----------



## Ajmassa

Rocky said:


> Hey, AJ, I read through this thread with great interest because we used to make a similar wine back in the day when my father, uncles and grandfather all worked together. We did a co-fermented blend of 75% Zinfandel (or Alicante depending on the quality of the grapes but most often Zin) and 25% Muscat. We would make the wine in early October when the grapes came in from California (we were in Pittsburgh at the time). The wine would be in the working barrels for 10 days or so and then transferred to 53 gallon whiskey barrels to finish fermentation. We would cap those barrels in early December and the wine would be drinkable around Easter but much better in a year or so. Once we opened a barrel, we did not "bottle" the wine, we "jugged" it in 1 gallon jugs, with a cork, with wax melted on top of the cork and with plastic tape over the corks. We stored the jugs in a special corner of the basement that was completely under ground and packed sand around the bottles to stack them and keep them at a cooler temperature.
> 
> I have been able to make a wine that approaches our family wine using Zinfandel and Muscat juice buckets or kits. I am pleased to hear you had great success.



Interesting story Rocky. I love hearing about different family traditions and Old Style techniques used. 1 gal jugs sounds perfect for those big Sunday family dinners.

Between the time we had a bottle last wknd and last night my brother called me to tell me he had just opened another one.
He said “it tastes like a much smoother version of when dad used to make it— without that homemade _kick - _as we would call it.”

I unknowingly went very heavy on the muscat not realizing how powerful that grape can be. So I’m thrilled to see it fall into place. ive heard so many different variations of this blend. It almost seems like ya can’t go wrong. by the time I reached my 20’s the fam had abandoned grapes and used all juice. So it was a fun little throwback to try and recreate.


----------



## Ajmassa

ibglowin said:


> Well done AJ! Time and or procrastination is your friend in wine making quite often!



sure is! My signature quote thing from @Johnd was there for a good reason! Not sure if still able to be seen.

_“That’s when you get more carboys and make more wine to the point you get overwhelmed. Then as you struggle to find time your wine just ages & improves. Procrastinators this is your hobby!”_


----------



## Rocky

View attachment 61756


With my keen eye for detail, I notice that this photo has been altered since I saw it yesterday. I realize and respect that some people are sensitive to the slang used for Italians but it has never bothered me. When I saw the original photo, I got a chuckle out of the appellation.


----------



## Boatboy24

Rocky said:


> View attachment 61756
> 
> 
> With my keen eye for detail, I notice that this photo has been altered since I saw it yesterday. I realize and respect that some people are sensitive to the slang used for Italians but it has never bothered me. When I saw the original photo, I got a chuckle out of the appellation.



There was a big kerfuffle over someone using that term for that wine a few years back. IIRC, it was started by someone who had no connection to the term, but was being offended for others.  Ultimately, I think a decision was made to err on the side of caution in order to keep things respectful to all.


----------



## Ajmassa

Rocky said:


> View attachment 61756
> 
> 
> With my keen eye for detail, I notice that this photo has been altered since I saw it yesterday. I realize and respect that some people are sensitive to the slang used for Italians but it has never bothered me. When I saw the original photo, I got a chuckle out of the appellation.


Those eyes ain’t so bad for an old timer! 
When I first became aware of this issue that @Boatboy24 already explained I admit I thought it was ridiculous and put up a little fight. I’m part Italian. From a big ol stereotypical Italian family. this term is just a type of wine to us. No more no less. Never even viewed it as possibly being offensive.

But we live in a different world now unfortunately. Everyone is offended by everything. Even scared of offending looters & rioters so we have to call them “protestors”. Skin thickness is devolving. So I abide by the rules. I don’t wanna deal with blowback from something as insignificant as this nor do I want moderators to have to deal with anything either.
When you read “Family Red” you know what we’re talkin about. @CDrew ’s family even started calling it “IAR” (Italian American Red) wine. Sorta like doubling down on the political correctness lol.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Those eyes ain’t so bad for an old timer!
> When I first became aware of this issue that @Boatboy24 already explained I admit I thought it was ridiculous and put up a little fight. I’m part Italian. From a big ol stereotypical Italian family. this term is just a type of wine to us. No more no less. Never even viewed it as possibly being offensive.
> 
> But we live in a different world now unfortunately. Everyone is offended by everything. Even scared of offending looters & rioters so we have to call them “protestors”. Skin thickness is devolving. So I abide by the rules. I don’t wanna deal with blowback from something as insignificant as this nor do I want moderators to have to deal with anything either.
> When you read “Family Red” you know what we’re talkin about. @CDrew ’s family even started calling it “IAR” (Italian American Red) wine. Sorta like doubling down on the political correctness lol.



I'm glad the bottle you gave me has the authentic name on it, assuming it's the same one you are talking about. So my question is when I do open the bottle, which will be soon after reading your post, am I not allowed to show the bottle in the "Other People's Wine" thread? LOL or not!


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> I'm glad the bottle you gave me has the authentic name on it, assuming it's the same one you are talking about. So my question is when I do open the bottle, which will be soon after reading your post, am I not allowed to show the bottle in the "Other People's Wine" thread? LOL or not!



lol No pics necessary. Just hope you enjoy it. 
its a good ‘all-purpose’ wine. Good with any meal. Preferred by many older family & friends who arent able to drink the bigger bolder reds.


----------



## Ajmassa

I enter the kitchen and see a glass of wine on the table. No bottle.
I asked, “What’s this?”

She says _“*I dunno. Why don’t you tell me Mr. Wino Sommelier”*_*.*

I said, “Blind tasting is crazy hard! I have endless respect for somms. But I think I can manage well enough”.

Wine looked clean. Clear. Pleasant aroma. And balanced really well. Dry. Nice tannin. I said, “ok help me out a little. This is definitely store bought. Not one of mine, right?”

“_*Wrong! It IS one of yours”*_

“Wow. Ok ok. It’s not one of the big reds I can tell. And I don’t have a large selection to choose from. I’m thinking gotta be the Paso Cab.”

“_*Wrong*”_

“The Chilean Syrah?”

“_*Wrong again!*”_

“Chateauneuff du Pape juice pail?”

“_*You suck at this”*_

“I’m pathetic. So what the hell is it?”

“_*It’s the Italian Red actually”*_.



Well I’ll be goddamned! Definitely making another batch of this next month.


----------



## CDrew

That is no joke. We did a blind tasting of Zinfandel, Syrah, and Barbera at a local winery. I was thinking, no problem. But actually got the Barbera and Zinfandel reversed!

Ya-super hard. Easier to go back to "yep, this is good"


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> That is no joke. We did a blind tasting of Zinfandel, Syrah, and Barbera at a local winery. I was thinking, no problem. But actually got the Barbera and Zinfandel reversed!
> 
> Ya-super hard. Easier to go back to "yep, this is good"



lol. See? I hear that and think barbera, zin, and Syrah? I got that all day! ! But when push comes to shove it’s not easy blind.
My 1st thought was that couldn’t believe how terrible I did and ate a big piece of humble pie—but I guess in the end that’s a good thing.

2nd thought was hey that wines not half bad!

FWIW (And to put a bandaid on my ego) about 20% this Italian Red Is actually that Paso Cab i initially said. And to keep it real that was actually my true 1st reaction So I could be “less wrong” lol


----------



## Ajmassa

I’m gonna test myself here. Without looking anything up I’m gonna describe those varietals how I perceive them with my limited vocabulary and you tell me if I’m on point or way off. Just for sh*ts & giggles.

All 3 in the bold dry red category.

Syrah I view as a bold wine. Less pop than most others. Sometimes even dull. A fat wine by not necessarily heavy. Dry or often even super dry.(maybe that means extra tannic tho) Color is not a vibrant. Not as purpleish. Also can be dull. Like a matte red as opposed to a semigloss purple idk

Barbera has more pizazz. Has some of the same fatness as a Syrah but with more flavor. Sharper. I suppose more acidic. Brighter color than Syrah. More of a deep yet bright purple.

zinfindel is probably the most difficult of the 3. Zin is like the prototype for a bold dry red. Sorta falls right down the middle in literally every category. Sets the mean for comparisons.

......how’d I do?  Should I sign up for that sommelier test?


----------



## CDrew

A tough call. To me, Barbera is like super Zinfandel. More acidic(in a good way) for sure, great with most foods. Barbera has less than average tannin, and less than average aging potential. THat's ok. It's great with dinner after 3 years and for another 5 years after. Zinfandel has enough tannin to taste "peppery". But, there are enough variations on the theme that Zinfandel can be anything. But in the Sierra foothills here Zinfandel is awesome. Sonoma Zinfandel (dry creek) is also awesome but different. I recently had a Camus Napa '82 Zinfandel that was spectacular. It held up really well for all these years.

Syrah in the end, is my favorite varietal. Big, big, big, wine and the California versions are almost overwhelming. Washington too. It needs some time to mature but in the end great.


----------



## GR!

Ajmassa said:


> I enter the kitchen and see a glass of wine on the table. No bottle.
> I asked, “What’s this?”
> 
> She says _“*I dunno. Why don’t you tell me Mr. Wino Sommelier”*_*.*
> 
> I said, “Blind tasting is crazy hard! I have endless respect for somms. But I think I can manage well enough”.
> 
> Wine looked clean. Clear. Pleasant aroma. And balanced really well. Dry. Nice tannin. I said, “ok help me out a little. This is definitely store bought. Not one of mine, right?”
> 
> “_*Wrong! It IS one of yours”*_
> 
> “Wow. Ok ok. It’s not one of the big reds I can tell. And I don’t have a large selection to choose from. I’m thinking gotta be the Paso Cab.”
> 
> “_*Wrong*”_
> 
> “The Chilean Syrah?”
> 
> “_*Wrong again!*”_
> 
> “Chateauneuff du Pape juice pail?”
> 
> “_*You suck at this”*_
> 
> “I’m pathetic. So what the hell is it?”
> 
> “_*It’s the Italian Red actually”*_.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I’ll be goddamned! Definitely making another batch of this next month.



Just read through this whole thread and I seem to remember "My palate isn’t too refined- but I can pick out our family blend a mile away." Maybe you are doing it a little better than your ancestors! That being said I think you have just solidified my fall grape making plans. Maybe in a year or two I can send you a bottle for some notes!


----------



## Ajmassa

GR! said:


> Just read through this whole thread and I seem to remember "My palate isn’t too refined- but I can pick out our family blend a mile away." Maybe you are doing it a little better than your ancestors! That being said I think you have just solidified my fall grape making plans. Maybe in a year or two I can send you a bottle for some notes!


Lol. Don’t rub it in! Actually tho the wines in years past never got this old. Which is a whopping 2 years surprisingly. Was never supposed to be anything special. Just like a neighborhood recipe for decent wine the whole family could drink.
I’m learning that muscat is damn strong for a white. Early on it really took over the wine but eventually mellows out but still lingering for a nice unique taste. That’s the taste I know. But now at 2 years it’s hard to even detect the muscat. Just kinda living in harmony with the rest. Totally different than 1 year ago. 
Definitely gonna tweak the blend some. Not sure how exactly yet. It’s a fun wine. Just picking out some version of the blend ya want, throwing all white and red together in a tub and letting it do its thing. And I had fun detailing it here. 
And glad to hear you read thru it. im sure we will be tossing notes at each other in a month


----------



## Ajmassa

Family Red— Take 2
2020 version

Goin for this one again 2 years later but making many changes. Totally blew up the blend compared to 2018. I wanted to back off the muscat and ditch the Alicante. Muscat was strong juice and took 2 years to fully allow all the flavors to live in harmony. Won’t know how it is in 3 years tho since it’s gone. But that’s kinda the point of this wine. Something fun and allegedly* stress free that can be enjoyed early.

I decided on:
Zinfandel 50% (x4 lugs)
Syrah 25% (x2)
Muscat 12.5% (x1)
Petite Sirah 12.5% (x1)

Blend inspired by @Mac60 ’s zin this year. It’s a whole different wine than ‘18 tbh. But it’s still made in the spirit of the ‘family red’ so that’s what I’m callin it.
Pickup day didn’t go as planned and I had to work solo. Was first use for new C/D stand—- and I absolutely hate it! Stand itself is ok. I just hate the entire setup. So big, bulky, heavy, awkward, high, etc. I know I’m gonna hurt myself eventually. I am determined to modify this to my needs. I have some ideas. Will need to rock n roll again in couple wks so I will try and get it done before then.


Was busy in the am and did and afternoon crush. Crushed into a 20gal containers and carried down in buckets. Was a long afternoon and cleanup always sucks. (Especially in the dark). A touch of so2–30ppm since I knew I’d be tinkering— did some tests, and let soak overnight w/ lallzyme EXV.


Realized in another recent thread (Fermenting with stems) that I forgot one important detail in making this authentic in ‘18 — the stems. Family always fermented with them. I was feeling adventurous and wanted to challenge myself. Decided on a whole cluster portion ferment. 30% whole cluster/carbonic maceration style with the clusters on the bottom of the fermenter underneath all the weight of the crushed must. Intentionally taking myself out of my comfort zone with this.
Did some reading and it made sense. (Or at least convinced myself it did) For medium bodied wines brings fruit forward and has em drinking young. Figured this could help balance the fact that I beefed up the blend yet still calling it the ‘family red’. Plus it’s different and fun. Best way to learn is just dive in......

————-Currently 2 days since crush and I fear I’ve made a big mistake going this route. Adjusting less than ideal #s on a ‘bottom of fermentor whole-cluster ferment’ is a helluva challenge. Before crushed must was added the clusters took up 15gal volume. Whole bottom half is untouchable. Fruit clocked in at:
1.114 SG
4.0ph
4.75 ta
Double & triple checked all. Even did the blender/filter deal for acid samples. Adjusted to the best of my ability but not feeling confident for various reasons
Anyway, I will get into particulars later (& seek some much needed advice)—-

No fun fam pics for this one. But my cab is due in a couple weeks & we will have all hands on deck for that.
“2020 Italian Red” crush pics:










Lots of firsts here. First whole-cluster ferment. First acidulated water addition. And first time using Fermentis HD135 yeast. Inocculated last night seen in that last pic. (Thank you @mainshipfred)


----------



## Ajmassa

No real point in seeking specific adjustment advice. Too many variables and what’s done is done. But if anyone cares to hear my trials and tribulations I’ll gladly explain. 
30% whole cluster at the bottom of the fermentor might be the stupidest winemaking decision I’ve ever made in recent years.

There’s a good reason this isn’t common practice for home winemakers—- it’s a MASSIVE pain in the ass!

Picture a 44gal fermentor loaded with almost 100lbs of whole clusters. Volume takes up to 15gal mark. Add 200 more pounds of multiple crushed varietals on top of that. All the juice seeps down into the bottom around the whole clusters leaving the top VERY skins heavy. And the bottom impossible to stir.

Now forget to take measurements of the whole cluster varietal by itself- having no idea what those grapes acids and sugar will do to your already adjusted wine after pressing. 

and even when making adjustments you can’t be sure of anything since your only mixing it in saturated skins —- hoping it makes it way to bottom. And I have no idea if I should leave the bottom clusters on the bottom or mix em around when punching. There’s no “step by step” home winemaker guide online for whole-cluster carbonic-maceration, or anything detailed at all on what to expect. All trial & error here. Certainly not boring. 

Testing for SG- the juice is so thick the hydrometer will “float” wherever you let go. Even straining it it’s thick. I am confident in my tests— just a pain to get them.
Fermentis hd135 yeast on this skins-heavy ferment sprinkled on top took a while to start. A nice gradual lag phase. 

Some questions I am mulling over:
1. Ideal way to proceed with punchdowns/stirring?
2. after pressing a lot of sugar will be released into the wine—- should I go back into the brute with skins or go to glass?
3. Why tf did I do this?


----------



## GR!

Ajmassa said:


> No real point in seeking specific adjustment advice. Too many variables and what’s done is done. But if anyone cares to hear my trials and tribulations I’ll gladly explain.
> 30% whole cluster at the bottom of the fermentor might be the stupidest winemaking decision I’ve ever made in recent years.
> 
> There’s a good reason this isn’t common practice for home winemakers—- it’s a MASSIVE pain in the ass!
> 
> Picture a 44gal fermentor loaded with almost 100lbs of whole clusters. Volume takes up to 15gal mark. Add 200 more pounds of multiple crushed varietals on top of that. All the juice seeps down into the bottom around the whole clusters leaving the top VERY skins heavy. And the bottom impossible to stir.
> 
> Now forget to take measurements of the whole cluster varietal by itself- having no idea what those grapes acids and sugar will do to your already adjusted wine after pressing.
> 
> and even when making adjustments you can’t be sure of anything since your only mixing it in saturated skins —- hoping it makes it way to bottom. And I have no idea if I should leave the bottom clusters on the bottom or mix em around when punching. There’s no “step by step” home winemaker guide online for whole-cluster carbonic-maceration, or anything detailed at all on what to expect. All trial & error here. Certainly not boring.
> 
> Testing for SG- the juice is so thick the hydrometer will “float” wherever you let go. Even straining it it’s thick. I am confident in my tests— just a pain to get them.
> Fermentis hd135 yeast on this skins-heavy ferment sprinkled on top took a while to start. A nice gradual lag phase.
> 
> Some questions I am mulling over:
> 1. Ideal way to proceed with punchdowns/stirring?
> 2. after pressing a lot of sugar will be released into the wine—- should I go back into the brute with skins or go to glass?
> 3. Why tf did I do this?



As for #3 - Wasn’t it for the sheer enjoyment of the process?


----------



## stickman

I wouldn't panic, just let the fermentation go for several days, check brix on the fermenting portion, and when you get down to maybe 14 brix or so start working the grapes at the bottom, something like a baseball bat, or put the boots on and jump in if you have to. Continue fermenting in the Brute and press when you feel like you have the extraction you desire. This will probably end up being the best wine you've made to date.


----------



## Ajmassa

GR! said:


> As for #3 - Wasn’t it for the sheer enjoyment of the process?


Lol. Yes! And I wanted to do something different. Just thinking out loud as I go. No regrets!




stickman said:


> I wouldn't panic, just let the fermentation go for several days, check brix on the fermenting portion, and when you get down to maybe 14 brix or so start working the grapes at the bottom, something like a baseball bat, or put the boots on and jump in if you have to. Continue fermenting in the Brute and press when you feel like you have the extraction you desire. This will probably end up being the best wine you've made to date.



Thank you for that. I kinda jumped into this blind. Just that little bit is helpful to have even as a reference point. Much obliged sir. And would be very very cool if you are right about this wine!

Fermentation is slow starting, which is nice. I’m used to the first cap coming on strong and reforming minutes after punch while the 1st half of AF blows by in 2 days.
I sprinkle pitched yeast Sun night. Nutrients Tuesday morning. Mal tues night. 1st SG drop was today. 1.114 at crush. Adjusted to 1.104, (shorted target slightly). Today it’s finally moving now 1.096. Also 1st strong cap today too. Super thick. taking a while to form again. Mixing also getting easier now.

I added enzymes for the whole thing at crush. But from the looks of things I assume whole berries aren’t affected and all the enzymes are working on the crushed skins which have already broken down a lot.

I’ve got a mix of sludge and whole cluster/berries now. My thoughts are *theoretically it will be harsh tannin, deep color & a heavy wine w/good acid and good abv _now, _then after press the acid will end up low, abv will creep up high, color will calm down, tannin will balance out.
Just going with it for now. No idea how it ends up, but it’s certainly gonna be fun getting there!




Hard to see in the pic. But after most recent punch there’s clusters scattered now. Majority still on bottom but things mixing well enough so the difference from top half and bottom half isnt as severe now if that makes sense.


----------



## cmason1957

if you do pick that boots on and jump in, I sure hope we get pictures of that. (Or it didn't happen)


----------



## Ajmassa

cmason1957 said:


> if you do pick that boots on and jump in, I sure hope we get pictures of that. (Or it didn't happen)


My old yellow rubber concrete pouring boots wouldn’t do the trick. Would probably need to break out my old overall fishing waders!

Though I think my little DIY wooden punchdown tool will be able to handle the task. Unless Olivia wants to jump in. Had her hand destem & crush a small amount in ‘17. Little different in an active fermentation. But no frozen digits this time! I will try to convince her. But a 13yr old is MUCH different than a 9yr old!

#ThrowbackWednesday. 3 generations.








And full circle— Around 1993 I’m guessing. That’s me in that badass sweatshirt working the crank and stomping.


----------



## cmason1957

And yes, convincing a 13 year old is a task best left alone.


----------



## sour_grapes

stickman said:


> I wouldn't panic, just let the fermentation go for several days, check brix on the fermenting portion, and when you get down to maybe 14 brix or so start working the grapes at the bottom, something like a baseball bat, or put the boots on and jump in if you have to. Continue fermenting in the Brute and press when you feel like you have the extraction you desire. This will probably end up being the best wine you've made to date.



I like Stick's general suggestions. I vote 4x4!


----------



## CDrew

I'm stoked for you @Ajmassa, this is how you learn to make wine. You did a good thing. Your family will enjoy this for years. And that's cool. I wish I was doing it! Heck, I'm just trying to learn to make a delicious wine to have with dinner every night. But you've gone off the reservation. Very cool. 

I sort of agree that as garage and basement based amateurs, without professional equipment, advanced techniques are difficult to pull off. You've done something interesting, and I can't wait to hear how it goes. 

Would really like to hear details about the yeast from @mainshipfred . ANd thanks for the vintage pics.


----------



## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> I'm stoked for you @Ajmassa, this is how you learn to make wine. You did a good thing. Your family will enjoy this for years. And that's cool. I wish I was doing it! Heck, I'm just trying to learn to make a delicious wine to have with dinner every night. But you've gone off the reservation. Very cool.
> 
> I sort of agree that as garage and basement based amateurs, without professional equipment, advanced techniques are difficult to pull off. You've done something interesting, and I can't wait to hear how it goes.
> 
> Would really like to hear details about the yeast from @mainshipfred . ANd thanks for the vintage pics.



Just having some fun with it. My thought process wasn’t “oh this will make the wine so much better!” - even though it might. But it might not too. Real winemakers with loads of experience make these decisions based on a gajillion variables ya know? 
This was impulsive. Mulled over the idea of using stems which led to whole-cluster which led to a poor mans carbonic maceration. I justified my reasoning hoping it might lead to making an otherwise big wine morph into a fruit forward early drinker. So figured what the hell why not? 

my dad was picking my brain about the ferment and I explained what I was doing. He compared it to when I was taught how to swim. Tossed me in the pool— choices are figure it out or drown lol. (Btw I figured it out. Even got a plaque for breaking a freestyle league record!) Certainly some growing pains but when/if I were to do this again I’ll be more informed and better prepared.

And I dig the yeast so far. Around 14 brix° last night. Moving at a comfortable pace. Temp steady increasing peaked this morning at 78° Crushed a portion yesterday. Was a damn fiasco lol.


----------



## Ajmassa

Interesting fermentation so far with this. Out of the roughly 90lbs of whole clusters in there I probably crushed a 1/3 about halfway thru. Tried to get Olivia for some old school stomping— but apparently binge watching The Office with her girlfriend was more important. Go figure.
Plan B was to just use my punchdown tool in the brute but that wasn’t gettin it done. Finally I just fished out clusters to crush and put back in. Punchdown tool only pressed tho- not exactly crushed. Tried to improvise and ceaned up a garden tiller but still wasn’t crushing properly. (Before any gasps- I cleaned the hell out of it and coated in silicon spray. Plus after seeing how the fam made wine you do get a unique perspective)



Eventually I said screw it. Just dumped thru the manual crusher right back into the brute. Did bucket of fished clusters and another of skins/stems/berries just to get some of those loose whole berries which were everywhere.



Sunday was at .998 and transferred free run. Left the cap and used the pvc racking cane filter pipe (GHP) to get a full demi from 30gal of super thick must. Mashed up the remaining skins a with a 2x4 to crush some berries. Covered up the skins with plastic, and covered brute with towel and lid. Was at the 16gal mark. (17 this morning). Will press today.


Now I’ve done the ‘plastic skins cover/next day press’ a bunch of times and I always transfer under 1.000. (Actually think it’s helped and my pressed wine consistently tastes better than the free run before mixing) But never had it still active like this before. The demi is bubbling like crazy-not just the typical mlf activity. And the skins in the brute are still forming a damn cap!— or as much of a cap its able to form at least. I suppose I can attribute this to whole cluster- but then again SG doesn’t lie. Both the free run and skins at .998 and chugging away is surprising.
As long as this is active I wonder if it’s beneficial to just let it go and hold off on pressing till it chills out. Expecting another 5-6gal of wine out of the 16gal of slop.


----------



## Boatboy24

Your gravity defying carboy is giving me anxiety...


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> View attachment 66435
> 
> 
> Your gravity defying carboy is giving me anxiety...



Brother, me too!


----------



## stickman

Wow! I didn't see that the first time around, it really is hanging out there.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> View attachment 66435
> 
> 
> Your gravity defying carboy is giving me anxiety...


Lol! Luckily she survived. I love that carboy too. Smooth sided 7gal and glass is real thick. I didn’t even notice the overhang till I went to post. 
I did however suffer one casualty this week with a 5gal. I use 4” pvc pipe couplings as an upside-down drying stand. They sit well—-but not secure or anything. Little bump and it was a goner. Been drying this way for a while. 1st accident. Collateral damage.


----------



## AaronSC

I have been thinking of trying this exact same thing -a half-way carbonic maceration with whole, uncrushed clusters on the bottom and covered with crushed/stemmed grapes to make it anaerobic. I was reading that a lot of wineries in southern France started using CM on grapes like Carignan and it made a heck of a difference in the fruitiness of the wine. I didn't get to try it this year so I'm glad I can see what happens based on your results. Doing a full CM is way beyond my means -I think it requires a lot of grapes and a tank pumped full of carbon dioxide.


----------



## Ajmassa

Transferred free run Sunday and left 16gal of active skins under plastic overnight. Pressed Monday. Just barely fit in a #35 basket. With the fruit fly nonsense I decided to wrap the basket and it worked great. Got about 6gal, let sit for a while, then fluffed up for another push. 



I picked up a fire pit poker at a flea market for this exact purpose. Pomace fluff is a tough job (Idea courtesy of @NorCal). Worked better than I thought. Got another 2.5gal. 


The initial 6gal of pressing was dirty as hell. Enzymes did well. A lot made it through and not surprisingly had the grossest gross lees I’ve ever encountered. Normally the lees builds up the sides appearing thicker than actual. Not the case here. Some serious lees. Racked the press Thursday.
288lbs got me 28gal must. (Brix lowering got me to 30gal). yielded >70% — 22gal.


----------



## stickman

Well the nice purple color looks good; it looks like you extracted everything including the tar and feathers.


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> Well the nice purple color looks good; it looks like you extracted everything including the tar and feathers.



Yes. I’m super happy about the color. It’s dry at .995 SG. And incredibly surprised to somehow see a favorable ph of 3.59! I’ll take it Had a glass leftover. Not what I expected. Sucker is hot! Tannic & high octane, attacks the mouth and the throat in a promising kinda way. Watered back to 1.104 down to .995 so it’s at minimum 15%abv (not accounting for juice from high brix clusters adding to abv). 
*Free run .996 sg 3.64ph still actively bubbling away




Some fruit is there upfront but loses the battle easily. MLF, time, and oak hopefully bring it together. Expected the whole cluster/carbonic maceration to help calm it down. No way to know but I assume would have been much more exaggerated without it. Not to mention all those stems. That “homemade kick/bite” is certainly there. I enjoy it. Others don’t. An acquired taste I suppose. I don’t want to lose it, just want less of a punch to the face. Optimistic for this wine. Might be a baby maker


----------



## Ajmassa

stickman said:


> Well the nice purple color looks good; it looks like you extracted everything including the tar and feathers.


And I was kinda forced to press it all. The skins/whole berries/whole clusters/remaining wine/stems/seeds/gross lees were all mixed up together. Especially after I tried crushing berries manually before pressing with the 2x4. Tar & feathers and all.
Que sera, sera.

(Should note that the resulting volumes allowed me to keep free and press separated. Tasting notes are of pressed wine)


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa said:


> Optimistic for this wine. Might be a baby maker


----------



## Mac60

Looking good...


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa said:


> Transferred free run Sunday and left 16gal of active skins under plastic overnight. Pressed Monday. Just barely fit in a #35 basket. With the fruit fly nonsense I decided to wrap the basket and it worked great. Got about 6gal, let sit for a while, then fluffed up for another push. View attachment 66626
> View attachment 66629
> 
> 
> I picked up a fire pit poker at a flea market for this exact purpose. Pomace fluff is a tough job (Idea courtesy of @NorCal). Worked better than I thought. Got another 2.5gal. View attachment 66627
> 
> 
> The initial 6gal of pressing was dirty as hell. Enzymes did well. A lot made it through and not surprisingly had the grossest gross lees I’ve ever encountered. Normally the lees builds up the sides appearing thicker than actual. Not the case here. Some serious lees. Racked the press Thursday.
> 288lbs got me 28gal must. (Brix lowering got me to 30gal). yielded >70% — 22gal.
> View attachment 66628
> View attachment 66630



Just had a 2nd look at this and wondering if the carboy in the last pic has a crack. May be worth a look.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> Just had a 2nd look at this and wondering if the carboy in the last pic has a crack. May be worth a look.


You mean on the right side of the word “press” written? That looks substantial. Would be tough to miss.

.....Just inspected whole thing. Was an awkward reflection on the pic. Hard to ‘prove it’ with another pic though. Full carboys are just big round distorted mirrors to the camera. Appreciate the heads up. 
(Bet your house is smelling absolutely wonderful at this point!)


----------



## Boatboy24

I was looking at roughly the 5 o'clock position from that writing. Thought it might have been that, but figured 'better safe than sorry'.


----------



## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> I was looking at roughly the 5 o'clock position from that writing. Thought it might have been that, but figured 'better safe than sorry'.
> 
> View attachment 66718


Ahh. Edge of the table reflection. You can see the same edge in all 3 in that last pic. Smooth, wider carboy the reflection is more horizontal. The 2 6gals next to it of smaller diameter the edge’s curves are more vertical. 
Yep. Better safe than sorry! And it’s appreciated. Now, back to the couch.


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## Jbu50

Ajmassa said:


> Some fruit is there upfront but loses the battle easily. MLF, time, and oak hopefully bring it together. Expected the whole cluster/carbonic maceration to help calm it down. No way to know but I assume would have been much more exaggerated without it. Not to mention all those stems. That “homemade kick/bite” is certainly there. I enjoy it. Others don’t. An acquired taste I suppose. I don’t want to lose it, just want less of a punch to the face. Optimistic for this wine. Might be a baby maker


Are you noticing any bitterness (presumably from the stems)?


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## Ajmassa

Jbu50 said:


> Are you noticing any bitterness (presumably from the stems)?


Been goin by smell, I haven’t really properly tasted yet aside from some of the heavy press directly after pressing. Not a good representation. I left the heavy lees for a few days and noticed hints of a sulphur/fart smell. Now a couple days after splash racking its completely gone and smells extremely pleasant/healthy.

What I did taste though im not sure I’d call it bitter. Idk it’s always so difficult describing tastes. My ‘Just a guy’ title is not for show. I don’t frequent any wine scene type things and don’t know all the proper terms or if my descriptions even make sense. Plus I lack a good vocabulary
Bitter’ to me is that acidic taste left on your tongue from a high acid wine and I’m able to detect it right away—same for dullness from lacking acid . But the sharpness present here comes later. Its not acidic. Its heavier like part of the tannin makeup. It’s like - I take a sip. Get the fruit right away. Great fruitiness actually. And acid seems balanced with it. All good.... . All good ...all good.....—-then BAM! The back end comes on like a freight train. Tannin engulfs the entire mouth & tongue. Comes in sharp. (Stems?). And high abv enhances it all giving more “umph”. Followed by the very evident dryness in the finish. 
At the very worst I’ll get some fun blends out if it.


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## Jbu50

Great description.


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## Ajmassa

I like an early test to have as a progress comparison for later. Usually this baseline test already shows near completion— this ones no different.

what’s interesting though is the other wines I tested. I had 2 other ferments goin and tried to hold off to inoculate all together but they got ahead of me. Ended up adding VP41 at 3/4 thru on the zin and 1/2 way on the Franc. Main batch inocculated at 1st punchdown. And tested a rosé from spring with no ML added.


Chroma shows:
main batch free & press (start of AF inocc) - No malic spot .
zin (late AF inocc) -bright malic spot
Franc (mid AF inocc) -faint malic spot
Rosé (no inocc) - no malic spot

Glad I put the acid standards on there b/c there’s some other spots that could be confusing otherwise. Test directly shows the earlier ML was added the faster mlf went. Haven’t raised temps, stirred or added nutrients to them yet but will now.

————————————-
The rosé however is a curveball. Last test mid July showed a malic spot still. Was sulphited but I never got around to adding lysozyme as recommended by @Boatboy24. I know. I know.

6gal carboy at 3.52ph
1gal jug at 3.49. The jug tastes better. I suspect carboy went thru mlf, jug did not. (Testing now)
Anyone ever try to undo an mlf by adding back malic acid before? Think I’m going to try.
Mlf’d rosé tastes good but the jug has more balls and is much more the style we prefer. The Mrs is my harshest critic and always keeps it real. She pointed it out and I agreed. Color also gained a little orange tint in the carboy (jug is less orange) but still happy with my 1st attempt 6mos in. “Malbec Blanc” needs just a little extra tweak. @cmason1957 @CDrew


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## Boatboy24

That Rose looks pretty nice, AJ. I don't know about adding Malic, but you could always add Tartaric too. I like my Rose a little lower than where yours is right now. More like a 3.4 or 3.3.


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## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> That Rose looks pretty nice, AJ. I don't know about adding Malic, but you could always add Tartaric too. I like my Rose a little lower than where yours is right now. More like a 3.4 or 3.3.


Yeah I am super happy with how it’s looking too. Will def try tartaric out. Going to do some bench trials soon on it. If I had malic acid I’d trial some of that too. Might order some. Or maybe even acid blend. Read recently pre AF adjustments - tartaric. But Post AF acid blend can be utilized too. Totally forgetting the reasoning behind it tho


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## CDrew

Your Rose looks exactly like mine. Definitely off pink headed to orange. Mine also went through MLF naturally. I did add back tartaric acid to drop the pH a bit. It's good now, and wife is drinking it tonight. In fact, she's almost wiped out the supply so it must have been ok. And that's from the "cursed" Mourvedre from last year. Looking forward to a Rose from nice grapes.

Adding malic back in? I wouldn't. How does it taste now? 

How about adding lysozyme to both and mix together?

And speaking of Rose-I'm picking Barbera on Sunday for the express purpose of making Rose. Looking for 250-300 pounds and going big. That could yield about 6 cases in the end. With really good grapes this year, if I'm careful, it could be good. I'll update my 2020 thread.

Nice update @Ajmassa . I like Rose for the same reasons that wineries do. It's easy and ready early. Chill and drink. No pretense.


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## cmason1957

I wouldn't add malic either. Tartaric, maybe. And I would certainly try adding some red wine in more for color than anything else.


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## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Adding malic back in? I wouldn't. How does it taste now?
> 
> How about adding lysozyme to both and mix together?
> 
> And speaking of Rose-I'm picking Barbera on Sunday for the express purpose of making Rose. Looking for 250-300 pounds and going big. That could yield about 6 cases in the end. With really good grapes this year, if I'm careful, it could be good. I'll update my 2020 thread.
> 
> Nice update @Ajmassa . I like Rose for the same reasons that wineries do. It's easy and ready early. Chill and drink. No pretense.


Eh. Just thinking out loud. Figured I took malic out. Why not put it back in? Tartaric and acid blend trials hopefully treat me right. Not opposed to anything. Need to wait to see what test shows before anything. 
I know your itching to make another! Glad your making it happen. The Malbec mother wine this was from is showing great promise too. Really excited for that one.
And I’ll be right there with ya making another. Got 350lbs of Red Mountain cab grapes due in a few weeks. (Very stoked for this!) Still on the vine. Will saigneè and get some more rosé. Definitely learned a lot that 1st one And now I know more of what to expect. This time I will:
1. Dial in acid better pre AF
2. Cold Soak & rack off sediment before fermentation!
3. Use lysozyme to stabilize 
4. Bleed off right away. And add back if color needs darkening
5. Listen to quality advice!




cmason1957 said:


> I wouldn't add malic either. Tartaric, maybe. And I would certainly try adding some red wine in more for color than anything else.


That’s a great idea! I didn’t even think to do that for the color. And the malic, yeah consensus seems that it’s not the best idea lol. Glad I have you guys to keep me straight!


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## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Adding malic back in? I wouldn't. How does it taste now?


It actually tastes pretty darn good. If it wasn’t for that extra jug tasting better I’d probably not mess with it. But in direct comparison it it’s evident it’s lacking something. Just like when we bought the Cherokee. We test drove the Jeep 1st. Then a Honda CRV. ———should have never taken out the Jeep 1st!


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## sour_grapes

Boatboy24 said:


> but you could always add Tartaric too.






cmason1957 said:


> I wouldn't add malic either. Tartaric, maybe.




I made an acid adjustment with tartaric today.

Of course, this was just for my mango salsa. My mango was overripe, and so tasted a little flat. A few pinches of tartaric cured that problem! I have taken to keeping my jar of tartaric in the kitchen instead of the wine room!


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## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> I made an acid adjustment with tartaric today.
> 
> Of course, this was just for my mango salsa. My mango was overripe, and so tasted a little flat. A few pinches of tartaric cured that problem! I have taken to keeping my jar of tartaric in the kitchen instead of the wine room!


Gorgeous and a helluva improvise! Jealous of all the talent around here! The homemade dough and pizza, pizza ovens, all the bread makers, gourmet cooking, cheese makers, DIY’s out the wazoo etc etc.


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## CDrew

Ajmassa said:


> It actually tastes pretty darn good. If it wasn’t for that extra jug tasting better I’d probably not mess with it. But in direct comparison it it’s evident it’s lacking something. Just like when we bought the Cherokee. We test drove the Jeep 1st. Then a Honda CRV. ———should have never taken out the Jeep 1st!



I don't understand. You bought a Jeep or a CRV? But very glad your wine passes the "tastes good" test!

On a side note, my parents, now in their 80s have had a series of CRVs since like 1995. These are great trouble free cars. Sadly, their current one, is likely their last.

I'm stoked for Sunday's Barbera pick for sure. All my other 2020 wine is in storage and out of the way. THe garage ambient temp is cooler, so hoping that that is sufficient for a cooler ferment. And if there's a lot, I'm going to do a Rose and a regular Barbera. Where we're picking has all they want, so what is left is ours. Could be good or bad, can't wait to see but the winemaker said the grapes are "perfect". I'm anticipating a good Barbera.


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## Boatboy24

sour_grapes said:


> I made an acid adjustment with tartaric today.
> 
> Of course, this was just for my mango salsa. My mango was overripe, and so tasted a little flat. A few pinches of tartaric cured that problem! I have taken to keeping my jar of tartaric in the kitchen instead of the wine room!



What, no citric lying around?


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## sour_grapes

Boatboy24 said:


> What, no citric lying around?



No, and no acid blend or malic either!


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa said:


> Gorgeous and a helluva improvise! Jealous of all the talent around here! The homemade dough and pizza, pizza ovens, all the bread makers, gourmet cooking, cheese makers, DIY’s out the wazoo etc etc.



I only wish I had the time to learn how to cook like some of the members. I'm kind of jealous as well.


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## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> I don't understand. You bought a Jeep or a CRV? But very glad your wine passes the "tastes good" test!
> 
> On a side note, my parents, now in their 80s have had a series of CRVs since like 1995. These are great trouble free cars. Sadly, their current one, is likely their last.


I just meant that when we went to the place we were set on the CRV. But also were eying up the Jeep Cherokee. Cherokee was a bit more expensive. A bit bigger. A bit worse mpg. Took it out 1st. Handled better. Had more bells n whistles. More luxury type interior. the CRV really was great in its own right, but we left in the Jeep. 

Good luck with your Barbera pick today!


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## chicken

Great thread! I'm inspired to try something like this myself next fall.

Looking back through our wine log, I see that we made something we called "zincatel", a mixture of muscat and zinfandel, back in 1988. Frustratingly, our notes are rather incomplete, so I have no idea how well it came out!


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## Ajmassa

chicken said:


> Great thread! I'm inspired to try something like this myself next fall.
> 
> Looking back through our wine log, I see that we made something we called "zincatel", a mixture of muscat and zinfandel, back in 1988. Frustratingly, our notes are rather incomplete, so I have no idea how well it came out!


I know man. My notes are horribly unorganized. I write mostly everything down- but just log it as I do it. My copybooks are timelines. Not wine specific. And once bottled that’s it. No more notes. Does it say the blend? 50/50?

Not sure why or how it came to be, but blending reds with muscat got very popular amongst home winemakers - yet unheard of in commercial (I think). Never read about any of the history of it though. 

my theory is that the muscat keeps the acid and ph in a safe range so it’s not needy. It can make a pleasant Med bodied wine perfect for meals. Able to be drank early. Not too heavy and with a perceived sweetness so everyone can enjoy it. Not too light so even big bold ppl can enjoy it. —- no clue if this is why though.
But for whatever reason- these type blends are still a neighborhood favorite- (was told by both my supplier in Philly and another joint by NYC (Carrado’s) it’s their biggest sellers).


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## chicken

Ajmassa said:


> I know man. My notes are horribly unorganized. I write mostly everything down- but just log it as I do it. My copybooks are timelines. Not wine specific. And once bottled that’s it. No more notes. Does it say the blend? 50/50?



It was 42 lbs of muscat, 72 lbs zinfandel. I don't know how that proportion was decided upon (maybe upon the advice of the guy we bought our wine press from?). We also did a batch with 120 lbs with just zinfandel, and a couple of "false wines."

That was our first year making wine. We were already making beer, and also mead, and had thought vaguely of someday making wine. It all came together one day when our housemate reached for the classified ads, saying "I wonder if anyone's selling a wine press." And that's how we got a wine press, a crusher, a bunch of carboys, a 15 gallon demijohn, and couple cases of bottles at a price that was almost too good to be true.


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## Ajmassa

chicken said:


> It was 42 lbs of muscat, 72 lbs zinfandel. I don't know how that proportion was decided upon (maybe upon the advice of the guy we bought our wine press from?). We also did a batch with 120 lbs with just zinfandel, and a couple of "false wines."
> 
> That was our first year making wine. We were already making beer, and also mead, and had thought vaguely of someday making wine. It all came together one day when our housemate reached for the classified ads, saying "I wonder if anyone's selling a wine press." And that's how we got a wine press, a crusher, a bunch of carboys, a 15 gallon demijohn, and couple cases of bottles at a price that was almost too good to be true.



very cool. So the 30yr+ tradition started with you! I wish I had that background and experience to fall back on. Make sure you teach the younger family members enough to keep it goin! I regret blowing off crush and press days as a teenager and not asking more questions. By the time I had a genuine interest all the old timers with the real knowledge were gone.


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## CDrew

Ajmassa said:


> Good luck with your Barbera pick today!



Thanks for thinking of me. It was OUTSTANDING. I'll put pics and details in my 2020 thread. Still have piles of work to do tonight. But, have 400+ pounds of must as we speak! Spoiler-making both barbera and barbera Rose!


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## AaronSC

Funny story -I was inspired by the family blend (the "<unprintable ethnic slur> red") that AJ makes with red grapes and muscat so I decided to try the same type of blend since I have so many darn grapes this year. My Zinfandel was picked in early September and already done fermenting when I picked the Muscat. It was waaaay up in the hills (maybe 3000 ft? I have a Jeep Wrangler and I was starting to wonder if I'd make it back...) so ripe a month later than I would have expected Muscat to be. I had a 3 gallon carboy of Zin that was stressing me a bit because it had a gallon of head space, so I filled it with muscat juice. It's still fermenting slowly but I'm really curious to see how the combination turns out. If it's good as is I'll bottle it and have a case of <unprintable ethnic slur> red. If it's a bit too weird I have a bunch of Mourvedre and Zin that I can blend this combination into to give it some fruit pick me up.

This vineyard where I got the muscat (which is a VERY early ripening grape, BTW) had a bunch of Zin and Primitivo unharvested in October, when I was picking the Muscat. I thought there was some mistake or he wasn't able to sell them and was just leaving them to rot. I grabbed a few Primitivo (which is also a pretty early grape) berries to chew on and they were pretty tart. The guy who owned the vineyard saw my face and said "yeah, those will probably be ready in a few weeks."

I love the Sierra foothills -you go two miles and the harvest dates can change by a month...


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## Booty Juice

Many many micro climates in Amador, El Dorado (where I grew up) and Placer counties - which is important to know when buying property up there!

The zip code at my ranch is EIEIO.

We just picked, destemmed, crushed, pressed and put into the fermenter 12 gallons of Rose' from some decent CS and Merlot grapes. Picked "the valves" - the area around the the big irrigation valves that the machine harvester (this morning) works around but doesn't pick. I've picked "the ends" many times but never "the valves". $0.50 per lb since they'd normally have to pay to have those areas pruned and the fruit would just be composted.

Pictures of this morning's pick, and a macro bin headed to LA (4 to 5 hour drive) with a couple of SoCal pilgrims.









.


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## Ajmassa

AaronSC said:


> Funny story -I was inspired by the family blend (the "<unprintable ethnic slur> red") that AJ makes with red grapes and muscat so I decided to try the same type of blend since I have so many darn grapes this year. My Zinfandel was picked in early September and already done fermenting when I picked the Muscat. It was waaaay up in the hills (maybe 3000 ft? I have a Jeep Wrangler and I was starting to wonder if I'd make it back...) so ripe a month later than I would have expected Muscat to be. I had a 3 gallon carboy of Zin that was stressing me a bit because it had a gallon of head space, so I filled it with muscat juice. It's still fermenting slowly but I'm really curious to see how the combination turns out. If it's good as is I'll bottle it and have a case of <unprintable ethnic slur> red. If it's a bit too weird I have a bunch of Mourvedre and Zin that I can blend this combination into to give it some fruit pick me up.
> 
> This vineyard where I got the muscat (which is a VERY early ripening grape, BTW) had a bunch of Zin and Primitivo unharvested in October, when I was picking the Muscat. I thought there was some mistake or he wasn't able to sell them and was just leaving them to rot. I grabbed a few Primitivo (which is also a pretty early grape) berries to chew on and they were pretty tart. The guy who owned the vineyard saw my face and said "yeah, those will probably be ready in a few weeks."
> 
> I love the Sierra foothills -you go two miles and the harvest dates can change by a month...



lol to “Unprintable ethnic slur”

Sounds like a great muscatd ratio to me. I bet your gonna dig it and not need to blend. It’ll give that zin a really unique zing. Or if not- then blend away! It’s all fun to me anyway. Especially when experimenting around like that. Gotta be sweet living in wine country already with all those options. Be sure to post your results!


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## Ajmassa

Booty Juice said:


> Many many micro climates in Amador, El Dorado (where I grew up) and Placer counties - which is important to know when buying property up there!
> 
> The zip code at my ranch is EIEIO.
> 
> We just picked, destemmed, crushed, pressed and put into the fermenter 12 gallons of Rose' from some decent CS and Merlot grapes. Picked "the valves" - the area around the the big irrigation valves that the machine harvester (this morning) works around but doesn't pick. I've picked "the ends" many times but never "the valves". $0.50 per lb since they'd normally have to pay to have those areas pruned and the fruit would just be composted.
> 
> Pictures of this morning's pick, and a macro bin headed to LA (4 to 5 hour drive) with a couple of SoCal pilgrims.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 67107
> View attachment 67108
> View attachment 67120
> View attachment 67121
> View attachment 67122
> 
> .



SPECTACULAR PICS!!! Really man. That looks amazing. Jealous of all you Cali guys!


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## CDrew

Love that Macrobin headed south. In my ideal winemaking life, that's how much I want to make at a time.

I've done the dry ice/CO2 thing too. The only problem was the must got so cold that it delayed the onset of fermentation until it warmed up.


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## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> The only problem was the must got so cold that it delayed the onset of fermentation until it warmed up.



Uuuuhhhhh ..... a _problem? _I’m calling that a _solution_!
I’m actually going to give some dry ice a try in a couple weeks to intentionally delay.
I want that extra time— at least in the grapes I’m getting I think I do. With temps dropping over here along with a dry ice cold soak I’m hoping to get a minimum of 10days on the skins from crush till press.

Agree they are great pics from @Booty Juice . The crush-pad looks awesome and ready to rock’nroll. Coveting that large drain in the middle along with the trough drain running down the whole pad. It’s the little things that make all the difference. My neighborhood here in NJ sucks for this. No outside drains AT ALL. Closest street sewer opening is a block awaY. And entire property pitches towards the house. I’d kill for an outside floor drain. (A _real_ one. Not that arrogant French type!)


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## CDrew

Ajmassa said:


> Uuuuhhhhh ..... a _problem? _I’m calling that a _solution_!
> I’m actually going to give some dry ice a try in a couple weeks to intentionally delay.
> I want that extra time— at least in the grapes I’m getting I think I do. With temps dropping over here along with a dry ice cold soak I’m hoping to get a minimum of 10days on the skins from crush till press.




Funny-My bias is to get fermentation up an running quickly to decrease the chance of something going wrong. I let the enzymes to the macerating and they are extremely good at it. But the one time I put about 15 pounds of dry ice in about 150 pounds of must, it took about 48 hours to get going making me anxious. Now if I had to haul 1000 pounds of must down the freeway on a 90 degree day, then dry ice all the way.

But good luck with the upcoming fermentation. Is this the Washington state grapes? If so, pictures will be needed! I was up in Walla Walla Washington this spring, and they are making some great wine there.


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## Ajmassa

CDrew said:


> Funny-My bias is to get fermentation up an running quickly to decrease the chance of something going wrong. I let the enzymes to the macerating and they are extremely good at it. But the one time I put about 15 pounds of dry ice in about 150 pounds of must, it took about 48 hours to get going making me anxious. Now if I had to haul 1000 pounds of must down the freeway on a 90 degree day, then dry ice all the way.
> 
> But good luck with the upcoming fermentation. Is this the Washington state grapes? If so, pictures will be needed! I was up in Walla Walla Washington this spring, and they are making some great wine there.


Oh yeah. And I do agree with ya. Especially if ya don’t add any so2, which I normally don’t. I’m pitching the night after pickup. I’m trying something different for this one tho. Can ya tell I like to shoot from the hip and experiment a little yet?  Did the natural ferment. Then the poor mans whole cluster carbonic maceration. Gonna give cold soaking a try. 
The grapes are replacement grapes since my Napa fruit got smoked out. 350lbs from Red Mountain Wash St. Im not positive, but there’s a slight chance it’s the same vineyard Peter Brehm sources for his red mountain cab. His vineyards are known. Mine are not. I’ll know in 1 week. They harvested 2 days ago. But at the time my supplier secured the grapes there was just a few red mountain vineyards with bulk cab for sale, one of which was the brehms source. (I checked wine business.com like a true nerd)
So if I got brehms it’s frozen. Thawing a few days gives that cold soak. Gonna try and get that same thing with the fresh grapes. At least that’s the idea. You know me. Just kinda winging it and going wherever it takes me!


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## CDrew

Driving up the Columbia River Valley, there are great looking vineyards on the north slope in particular. I'll bet you'll be super happy with those Red Mountain grapes. Red Mountain is up near Yakima so just north of Walla Walla. Sounds great. Everything here in Northern California this year came ripe at the same time. You are lucky that you're still in the early stages in mid October. I had a super busy September and October, but things are slowing now. All my wine is off the gross sees, and off the sludge, so all cleaned up!. 

Have fun! Good luck, you're going to make some great wine!


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## Donz

I’m thinking of adding some muscat to my zin this year. Is it the white or black muscat that is most commonly added?


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## Rocky

Donz said:


> I’m thinking of adding some muscat to my zin this year. Is it the white or black muscat that is most commonly added?


Long ago at home we used white Muscat field blended with Zinfandel in a 3:1, Zinfandel to Muscat ratio.


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## Ajmassa

Donz said:


> I’m thinking of adding some muscat to my zin this year. Is it the white or black muscat that is most commonly added?


White. A little goes a long way too. Even though it’s a white grape muscat is hella powerful and makes for a great base for the blend.

as a kid growing up I helped make it with the fam. The ratio differed I was told but usually it was like
40-50% muscat 
50-60% Alicante & zin & sometimes Thompson’s seedless

when they did it from juice it would be 3 buckets for each demijohn 
2 muscat
1Alicante 

in 2018 I tried to make it as authentic as possible to the old grape blend. 
think i did 40%muscat
By the time it started to really shine at 2 years it was almost gone!
In 2020 I played with the ratio. Maybe 10-15% muscat. And swapped Alicante w/ petite Sirah. It’s a big ass wine. Not bottles yet. But in spite of the boldness the muscat is still very present as the base holding the wine tigether And still giving it that unique/authentic D red taste. 

Last time i did the juice blend was in 2014 or 2015. And I kept stealing some before bottling not fully aware of how long it takes for wine to oxidize. I tried to salvage it and that’s how I ended up on the forum


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## Donz

Sounds awesome. We crushed today, the blend is light on the muscat but it’s there. 75 old vine Zin, 20 caringnan, 5 muscat. Going to hit it with Avante and Bravo tomorrow after a 24hr cold soak. Looking forward to it! It’s the first Zin I do without petit syrah.
Had some questions asked about the sweetness of the muscat grape as they make really sweet muscat wines… ?


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## Ajmassa

Donz said:


> Sounds awesome. We crushed today, the blend is light on the muscat but it’s there. 75 old vine Zin, 20 caringnan, 5 muscat. Going to hit it with Avante and Bravo tomorrow after a 24hr cold soak. Looking forward to it! It’s the first Zin I do without petit syrah.
> Had some questions asked about the sweetness of the muscat grape as they make really sweet muscat wines… ?


Sounds awesome. Just enough to make people sense that extra flavor they weren’t expecting and do a double take. All I know about muscat is based off of personal experience w/ these blends. Though I have had some at diff tastings and was always v. sweet. But we ferment dry & blend. Never kept as single varietal.

I do think it’s incredibly strong for a white grape. not delicate or thin at all. It’s more of a strong deep fruitiness. There’s no mistaking where the muscat is unlike trying to discern most red blends. It stands tall among the reds. A very confident fruity foundation and adds some unique characteristics to a red wine. 1st impression as it hits your palate it does offer a type of perceived sweetness. But it’s not actually sweet. Just so flavorful it seems that way before stepping back to allow the rest of the wines characteristics show thru. But then after you swallow and take a breath that muscat base comes back around capping off the finish letting you know it wasn’t your imagination. And that your wine is special.

My ‘20 version has some major shit happening w the big tannin filled high abv reds. As if a full orchestra is playing a symphony of taste on your tongue—- fading into a death metal band thrashing& screaming over a dangerously fast high octane guitar solo —-which abruptly yet seamlessly gives way back to the orchestra to reel in the tempo and bring it on home w/ class.

No clue if my observations are on par w/ what the boujie wino scene has to say about muscat. Probably not. I’m just some dude on the internet w/o a wine critic level vocabulary. But I’ve been drinking variations of this neighborhood blend since 12yrs old and I know it well.


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## CDrew

Donz said:


> Sounds awesome. We crushed today, the blend is light on the muscat but it’s there. 75 old vine Zin, 20 caringnan, 5 muscat. Going to hit it with Avante and Bravo tomorrow after a 24hr cold soak. Looking forward to it! It’s the first Zin I do without petit syrah.
> Had some questions asked about the sweetness of the muscat grape as they make really sweet muscat wines… ?



Why both Avante and Bravo? Is it 2 ferments or all combined? And funny, the Avante and Bravo kind of work with @Ajmassa 's orchestral death metal band metaphor.


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## Donz

Thanks for your feedback it's much appreciated!

We are using Avante and Bravo in separate fermentation tanks and will combine after ferment when we press.


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