# Oaking a Pinot noir (or how to mimic a commercial wine)



## Elmer (Jan 3, 2014)

I am in the process of final racking of a WE Pinot noir.
It came with 2oz of oak chips that were used in primary.
I want to try to mimic my wife's favorite Pinot, which according to their tasting notes ages for 8 months in hungarian/French barrels. I find the wine very oaky.

People have told me not to age the Pinot in my soon to be here American oak barrel. Or I have been advised to put the Pinot in the barrel after running a few other reds through it.

So can I get away with dropping in some toasted oak sticks?

I have never used them, so was not sure how greatly the sticks effect the taste if 6 gallons of wine.

I guess I am trying to get the same effect of aging commercially for 8 months in a hungering bucket.

Can cubes or sticks or spirals even come close to replicating this flavor?


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## seth8530 (Jan 3, 2014)

I can not tell you just how close staves come to replicating barrel flavour, but I am sure they do it a heck of a lot better than oak chips. From my experience, it is quite possible to pile on the oak with cubes, so I imagine given enough time you should be able to get pretty close to what you are looking for with staves oak sticks. 

Wish I could offer more!


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## DoctorCAD (Jan 3, 2014)

Toasted Hungarian cubes...1 ounce for 30 days. Guaranteed to please!


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## Elmer (Mar 15, 2014)

Finally was able to buy some medium toast Hungarian oak cubes (had to go to an out of the way LHBS to get them).
Added 1 oz, gonna let it sit for 1 month.

I am really liking the flavor of the Pinot noir now, and the fruit has not fully come forward yet.
Figure a month with cubes, then bottle, then let it sit for a month in bottle. And I will break down and be drinking this batch by May!

Thanks for advice!


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## seth8530 (Mar 16, 2014)

Easy cap'n, how long has this batch had to age? I have heard that Pinot Noir can take quite a bit of time to come into its prime.


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## Elmer (Mar 16, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Easy cap'n, how long has this batch had to age? I have heard that Pinot Noir can take quite a bit of time to come into its prime.




It has been bulk aging 2 or 3 months.
But once it has sat on the oak cubes for a month and is completely clear, which it is Why not bottle
instead of Bulk age?


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## GaDawg (Mar 16, 2014)

IMHO you are good to go, but if you let it bottle age for another 3 to 6 months you will be rewarded


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## seth8530 (Mar 16, 2014)

I would make sure it won't drop acid crystals first. Plus once you bottle you lose the ability to make changes to the wine. However, if you are done making all changes to the wine and you are sure it won't drop acid crystals then I guess you have no reason to bottle as long as you let it age in the bottles.


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## JohnT (Mar 17, 2014)

Here is my opinion on Pinot. 

Age is everything. A pinot is a wine that can taste great at 3 months, but abso-friggin-lutely-awsome at 5 years. 

When it come to pinot, I have the intent to age it out by 5 years (2 year bulk age, 3 years in the bottle). I adjust maceration and also oak age in order to give it a much stronger tannic structure, knowing that the tannins will fade and protect the wine over time. 

Oak is a big part of this. I think you made a great choice of Hungarian oak cubes. What toast did you go for (I prefer medium)? 

Depending on what you are trying to get, when it comes to oak, bigger is always better. Slats are better than beans, beans are better than cubes, cubes are better than chips, and chips are better than dust.


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## Elmer (Mar 17, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Here is my opinion on Pinot.
> 
> Age is everything. A pinot is a wine that can taste great at 3 months, but abso-friggin-lutely-awsome at 5 years.
> 
> ...



I went with the medium toasted Hungarian oak cubes.

All my LHBS only sell hungarian oak in cub form. All other spirals and staves, sticks and and chips are either french or american.


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## JohnT (Mar 17, 2014)

IMHO, Hungarian - Medium toast oak goes great with Pinot. 

I would suggest that you try oak beans next (they are about the size of 3 or 4 cubes). If you like the results from cubes, you will LOVE the results from Beans. Also, Beans are still small enough for you to get them in and out of a carboy without too much trouble.

You can get them on the internet and shipping should be cheap given that the oak does not weigh much.


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## GaDawg (Mar 17, 2014)

Pinot Noir is supposed to be light and delicate. So (IMHO) I would be careful not to over oak it. Pinot Noir should not be oaked like a Merlot or a Cabernet Sauvignon. With that said it's your wine so make it any way you want


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## JohnT (Mar 18, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Pinot Noir is supposed to be light and delicate. So (IMHO) I would be careful not to over oak it. Pinot Noir should not be oaked like a Merlot or a Cabernet Sauvignon. With that said it's your wine so make it any way you want


 
GA, 

I agree. With pinot (as with all wines) balance is important. It would be easy to over-oak a pinot, but I have to say that IMHO an under oaked pinot is just as bad as an over oaked pinot. 

It is just my opinion, but I think pinot is greatly enhanced by the right amount of oak.


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## Elmer (Mar 18, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Pinot Noir is supposed to be light and delicate. So (IMHO) I would be careful not to over oak it. Pinot Noir should not be oaked like a Merlot or a Cabernet Sauvignon. With that said it's your wine so make it any way you want



As it happens I got home last night, and on a whim grabbed a bottle of Mark West off the rack.
The back of the label indicated they wine is oaked by storage in Hungarian and french oak barrels for 8 months.

Since that is what is drank around my house ( mostly by the boss), I cannot imagine that a 1/4 Oz of Heavy american oak chips, followed by 1 oz of medium toasted Hungarian cubes is going to be too much.

not to mention I have 1 month until bottling (maybe) and then another few months aging in a bottle!


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## JohnT (Mar 18, 2014)

Elmer said:


> As it happens I got home last night, and on a whim grabbed a bottle of Mark West off the rack.
> The back of the label indicated they wine is oaked by storage in Hungarian and french oak barrels for 8 months.
> 
> Since that is what is drank around my house ( mostly by the boss), I cannot imagine that a 1/4 Oz of Heavy american oak chips, followed by 1 oz of medium toasted Hungarian cubes is going to be too much.
> ...


 
I would say that you are most definitely playing it safe! You will end up with very, very light oak as a result. You may even decide to up the dosage in future.


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## GaDawg (Mar 18, 2014)

Elmer said:


> Since that is what is drank around my house ( mostly by the boss), I cannot imagine that a 1/4 Oz of Heavy american oak chips, followed by 1 oz of medium toasted Hungarian cubes is going to be too much.



I'm making a Cellar Craft Premium California Reserve Pinot Noir that I started last November. It came with american oak chips for the primary and I added 3/4 oz. of Hungarian Oak for 8 weeks. I have a Winexpert LE2013 Oregon Pinot Noir, but I think I will make this one per instructions. I'm also making a Eclipse Stag's Leap Merlot. It came with 60g of oak powder for the primary and 180g of Hungarian Oak cubes. I didn't add the cubes to the secondary but will add them after I rack.


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## seth8530 (Mar 18, 2014)

JohnT said:


> I would say that you are most definitely playing it safe! You will end up with very, very light oak as a result. You may even decide to up the dosage in future.



Just curious, how much oak would you have went for?


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## JohnT (Mar 18, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Just curious, how much oak would you have went for?


 
For a cab or merlot, I go for about 4 oz per carboy as a standard. Depending on the body and color, I may do more than that. 

This being a pinot, I would have gone for 3oz. He is going for 1.25 oz.


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## Elmer (Mar 18, 2014)

JohnT said:


> For a cab or merlot, I go for about 4 oz per carboy as a standard. Depending on the body and color, I may do more than that.
> 
> This being a pinot, I would have gone for 3oz. He is going for 1.25 oz.



Would you suggest I bump up the oak amount?
or wait a month, try it and then potentially oak for another month?


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## GaDawg (Mar 18, 2014)

You can always add oak, but you can't take it out


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## JohnT (Mar 18, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> You can always add oak, but you can't take it out


 

I absolutely agree with GaDawg.. 

You have your own tastes. Going light right now means that you can "dial in" the amount of oak you prefer. As Ga says, you can always add another dose...

That being said, I would put my money on you add more later.


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## ffemt128 (Mar 18, 2014)

JohnT said:


> For a cab or merlot, I go for about 4 oz per carboy as a standard. Depending on the body and color, I may do more than that.
> 
> This being a pinot, I would have gone for 3oz. He is going for 1.25 oz.


 

I used 3 oz medium french oak cubes in my Pinot. I left it in for 8 weeks and in my opinion it is pretty darn good for my tastes.


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## seth8530 (Mar 18, 2014)

Cool, I also used about 3oz in my Pinot Noir. But I used either staves or spirals.


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## JohnT (Mar 18, 2014)

I find that I prefer staves to spirals, but that is just me.


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## Elmer (Apr 4, 2014)

Half a month sitting in 1 oz of medium toasted oak cubes and it is not nearly oaked to what we like in my house.
There is no heavy smokeyness or much of an oak flavor at all.
So I may up it with 1 more oz,
Of course I have plenty of heavy toast American oak chips I can add as well.

Any ideas on mixing Hungarian & heavy American oaks?


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 5, 2014)

I personally stay away from chips after primary. They can impart a lot of flavor quickly, but to me, it seems harsh.


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## Elmer (Apr 5, 2014)

Is 2 to 3 oz of cubes excessive?

I mean how much oak flavor does 2 or 3 cubes impart in 6 gallons.

Can I possibly over oak it?
Having tried wine that has been in my barrel, I am starting to think there is no way 3 oz of cubes could impart as much as wine that spends 6 weeks in a barrel.


Guess what I am saying is I putting the remainder of my cubes in the Pinot,
Anyone want to talk me out of it?


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 6, 2014)

I wouldn't bee too scared of 3 oz. But I'm an oak monster. I'd still taste every two weeks.


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## GaDawg (Apr 29, 2014)

Just bottled my Cellar Craft Premium Pinot Noir and boy is it good!!!



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## JohnT (Apr 29, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Just bottled my Cellar Craft Premium Pinot Noir and boy is it good!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


 
Congrats GaDawg. Glad it worked out for you.


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## Elmer (Apr 29, 2014)

GaDawg said:


> Just bottled my Cellar Craft Premium Pinot Noir and boy is it good!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Wine Making



Congrats, enjoy it!

I have 2 weeks, according to my racking schedule. At which time I was going to bottle. This would put the wine at 5 months, month and a half sitting at least 2 oz of oak cubes.
Every time I mention bottling, my wife who likes the Pinot tells me "it is not done yet"!


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