# Wine diary and question time!



## TinyPirate (Apr 22, 2014)

I figured rather than randomly starting threads, or shoving my questions in on other people's threads, I would keep them all in one place - nice and tidy!

Anyway, I've currently got my first country wines in two carboys (5.6lt/1.5 US glalons, by the way) and one bucket. In the carboys a Plum wine started Feb 14, a Pear wine, started 16 Feb and in the bucket, a Blackcurrant Dragon Blood started 19 April. Questions and notes follow.

*The Plum*
I recently (20 April) added a flavor pack to the plum as the recipe suffered from being a bit tasteless. A sample at the time suggested this was a nice improvement. I also stabilized and I'm not seeing any activity in the jar any more. SG ratings suggest that it is dry (0.990).

Question: Is it time to bottle this thing? The recipe suggests it needs another month in the jar before bottling for 6 months, but considering it was "wrong" about the fruit required to make something tasty, I'm not convinced I should follow this.

Question: So far the plum wine has a great deal of astringency/tannin that seems to be mellowing over time. I am guessing it will continue to mellow, hence the 6 months wait before drinking? Is this common (I expect so?) or should I have done something earlier on to reduce the astringency? I am thinking I should back-sweeten a little - wait to check it's stable - and then bottle. If so, what sort of SG should I aim for? Or should I pull out some sample volumes, add a little simple syrup and then taste test to get something ideal? I'm concerned that this approach will work for the "young" wine but that over time (if collaring is required) the profile will change and the sugar amount will be wrong for the drink.


*The Pear*
The pear is a great looking drop so far. It's been racked and is pretty much clear and very nearly dry at 0.992. The recipe suggests 5 months in the jar before bottling for 6 months again. 

I've got a kilo (2lb) of pears ripening on the bench and expect to stabilize at some point (now?) and to add a flavor pack to the batch as, again, the recipe called for less pears than I now think is necessary for a tasty drop. 

Question: Once I've stabilized, flavor packed, and waited for it to clear (bentonite along the way somewhere) I'm expecting I can back sweeten, wait to make sure there's no more fermentation, and, again, bottle this thing too?


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## peaches9324 (Apr 22, 2014)

no leave them age in carboy. After 8 months in the carboy they will still be dropping lees and becoming crystal clear at a year or year and a 1/2. They may seem completely clear to the naked eye right now but if you bottle you'll be disappointed for sure and don't back sweeten until your almost ready to bottle a lil age does wonders you cannot hurry a wine made from fresh fruit. And don't forget the sorbate before back sweetening just make sure you have the carboys topped up, the airlock with liquid in it and is on a good kmeta schedule when aging


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## TinyPirate (Apr 22, 2014)

Interesting, ta. What k-meta schedule should I have? I don't have any right now, other than k-sorb and meta added to the plum right now. 

Damn, I am going to have to get more carboys! I find it funny that DB is "ready" so quickly, and yet tees other drops will take another year before I can drink them!

Also, why not add a fining and then bottle and age rather than wait them out in the carboy? Lots of questions, I know...


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## peaches9324 (Apr 22, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Interesting, ta. What k-meta schedule should I have? I don't have any right now, other than k-sorb and meta added to the plum right now.
> 
> Damn, I am going to have to get more carboys! I find it funny that DB is "ready" so quickly, and yet tees other drops will take another year before I can drink them!
> 
> Also, why not add a fining and then bottle and age rather than wait them out in the carboy? Lots of questions, I know...



LMAO it's a hurry up and wait game I know because the wine will still be dropping out lees in the carboy something you don't want in the bottom of your bottles or the sides of your bottles. This has happened to me I have yet to try the dragon blood but plan on in the near future I've heard only good things about it! Yep more carboys fyi get a couple 3 gal carboys and gal jugs also because after the aging process you'll want to down size to avoid headspace or/and adding water or other wine to top up and you might wanna invest in some aquatic marbles I tend to use a lot of those. As far as the kmeta schedule goes different people have different schedules but if you do 1/4 tsp of kmeta for 5 - 6 gal of wine every 3 months is what most people do but make sure to add it to a cup of the wine or water and mix before adding it in, this is something I can't ever seem to remember and it defeats the purpose lol


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## Turock (Apr 23, 2014)

Yes--the plum needs to bulk age. One year is a good time frame. If you allow enough bulk aging time, the astringency often improves as those unstable esters will fall out.


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## TinyPirate (Apr 23, 2014)

One year! Ouch! Why are the time differences so great between, say, a plum wine and a DB? Is part of it down to the fruit? Or something in the making? I want to understand the principles better. And how about the pear?


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## TinyPirate (Apr 24, 2014)

Tonight I added some k-meta to the pear (first dose) and took a taste. Wow, it is really good! It is mellow and buttery like a Chardonnay but with some sharpness like a Sav and then lovely pear fragrance throughout. 

I am sort of wondering if I should just bottle it and be done with it, but a a flavor pack might also be a good idea. It is 16% (oops!) after all and too strong for a table wine. Thoughts?

I also think it could do with a little tannin or oak or something. That roundness might really finish it off nicely. Do people do anything to pear at this stage along those lines? I don't think it needs much, but some would be great, maybe?




(Really wish I had bought a ton more of those pears now, 30 cents a kilo (2lb) is awesome!)


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 24, 2014)

At 16% ABV, all you need is a little neutral brandy and a slight flavor boost (say from an f-pac), and you've got yourself a pear port style wine.

If you go with any kind of sweetening though, be sure to use sorbate along with your KMeta.


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## TinyPirate (Apr 24, 2014)

Yeah, my plum is in the same situation. Where can I read how to turn these into port?


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## Turock (Apr 24, 2014)

Actually, pear ages very well. As it approaches the 2 year mark, it smoothes and softens. There's nothing better than a 2 year old pear.

You'll find that most fruit wines need at least 1 year in bulk aging to firm up the flavor and to drop sediment. You should not bottle cloudy wine, especially when sweetened because sorbate cannot work when so many yeast cells are present.

This is how we ended up with 80 carboys---it takes time to bulk age wines, do MLF's, oaking procedures. Rushing into bottling young wines --you're missing out on the flavors that develop when the wine is aged. And young wines are not stable with all the sediment and unwanted esters in them. Given enough time, these fall free from the wine creating stability. If you want smooth and balanced wines, you need to give them the time they need. You don't throw a 6 month old child out in the world to fend for itself---it takes time to grow up. You have to invest some time in your wines so that they grow up too.


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## TinyPirate (Apr 24, 2014)

Hehehe, great tips, thanks! Do you MLF all your fruit wines? This isn't something I know a lot about. 

You have all convinced me to keep the plum and pear in their carboys a good deal longer. Now I think I will definitely need some more as I want a few productions that I can drink a little sooner!


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## cmason1957 (Apr 24, 2014)

Look in the recipes for Dragons Blood. You can be drinking it in 4-6 weeks, some day less. There are as many variations of it, as there are people on this forum.


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## TinyPirate (Apr 24, 2014)

Yup! I have a blackcurrant DB rolling now. Lots of extra berries, the kitchen smells like a Ribena factory! 

I am wondering what are the differences between wines when a DB is ready in 4ish weeks and my other wines need another year? I am curious about the winemaking reasons behind this. 

Also, damn, I want more carboys and stuff now. It is a good time to pick up a ton more pears, I reckon, and the first batch is so far so tasty I definitely want to try more!

Also, does anyone oak or late tannin their pear wine?


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## Turock (Apr 25, 2014)

You wouldn't want to MLF fruit wines---except apple and maybe pear. The MLF takes the fruitiness out of the wine.

I've never oaked pear wine, so it would take some experimentation. We DO make cinammon pear, using cinammon extract. Sometimes I use it while cooking pork chops or ham--really comes out nice. You could also try vanilla extract (making your own extract) too.

Hungarian oak might be a nice choice for pear since it lends a sort of caramel flavor. I don't think pear needs extra tannin--but if you would like it a tad more astringency, you could give it a try--especially in the primary where it will integrate better. But be sure not to add the tannin until the first stirring or punchdown of the must because it will inactivate your pectic enzyme. So add the tannin after the pectic enzyme has done its work.

Plum is such a delicate flavor, even if you use no water. So it really needs time for the flavor to firm up as much as possible. Even some additional bottle aging is an option.


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## TinyPirate (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks. Oh, didn't realize MLF was a grape thing - good, one less skill to worry about! 

The pear needs very little, in my opinion, but an oaky touch might be really pleasant. I will see if I can find some suitable oak around here and consider adding it. 

The plum, well, it has been flavor packed so I think all it needs is time - in the jar first and then in the bottle. It might need back sweetening too. I will taste closer to bottling time and see how I feel about it, I guess. 

Ta for the ongoing tips!


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## peaches9324 (Apr 25, 2014)

I added oak to a gal of pear wine and left it sit too long...it sucked! Only take 1 gal and oak. I'm convinced if I didn't leave it sit as long as it did it would of been great! So check it every month and let us know.. and Hungarian oak that is what I wanted to use but I used light oak its what I had on hand


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## cmason1957 (Apr 25, 2014)

Turock said:


> I've never oaked pear wine, so it would take some experimentation. We DO make cinammon pear, using cinammon extract. Sometimes I use it while cooking pork chops or ham--really comes out nice. You could also try vanilla extract (making your own extract) too.



About how much cinnamon extract do you put in day a gallon of pear? 

I have an apple and a past that we added a tablespoon each to. It hasn't made much distance, yet. Not sure how far to go with it.


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## peaches9324 (Apr 25, 2014)

quote; I've never oaked pear wine, so it would take some experimentation. We DO make cinammon pear, using cinammon extract. Sometimes I use it while cooking pork chops or ham--really comes out nice. You could also try vanilla extract (making your own extract) too.

I've got a gal. of apple wine still aging in jug was thinking about adding some cinnamon sticks I think that would work out nice and I'll definitely use it on ham and pork chops Good idea Turock! Sounds yummy!


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## TinyPirate (Apr 26, 2014)

My blackcurrant Dragon Blood hit 1.000 today, so I cleared out the fruit. I also decided to carboy it because fermentation has slowed quite a bit. I was also left with 1.5lt left over. Not sure what to do with that. Fridge it for topping off the next racking?

Also pictured my pear and plum. The pear has gone a bit cloudy since I added k-meta. Boo. 

The plum has a good deal of sediment at the bottom due to the flavor pack. Rack and top off with the blackcurrant maybe?


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## TinyPirate (Apr 26, 2014)

Picture!




edit: Ordered some Hungarian oak - going to give it a go because it just feels right based on the recent pear tasting.


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## TinyPirate (Apr 26, 2014)

Ok, for general note-taking and thought-clarifying, here's my thoughts on the future of my experiments - and this is thanks to the feedback you've all provided - ta!

*The Plum*
The f-pack has kicked off a ton of sediment. I'm going to bentonite and in a few weeks, rack, degas, and then wait/rack for a few months before tasting, maybe/probably backsweetening, and bottling.

*The Pear*
Needs to be degassed, have sorbate added, then an f-pack, wait a week, bentonite, wait a month, rack, add oak shavings for one month (maybe more), and then age/rack/age/rack/etc until backsweetening and bottling time. 

*The Dragon Blood*
Needs to be racked pretty promptly, there's two inches of sediment down there! Should have used a nylon bag for those currants... Got plenty of top-up juice to add tho! From there, as per the usual instructions, but I'm not going to flavor-pack as I don't want to be doing these "Fixes" for every wine. There's enough fruit (2.5 times the recipe, I think) in there to provide the right flavour, I reckon, especially post-sweetening and aging. If not, I'll worry about it then.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 26, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Not sure what to do with that. Fridge it for topping off the next racking?



Bingo! That is what I would do.



> The plum has a good deal of sediment at the bottom due to the flavor pack. Rack and top off with the blackcurrant maybe?



Can you rack down to a smaller container? Or add marbles?


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## TinyPirate (Apr 26, 2014)

I think it's going to have to be marbles. I thought I had filtered the flavour pack enough, but I guess not!


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## peaches9324 (Apr 26, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> I think it's going to have to be marbles. I thought I had filtered the flavour pack enough, but I guess not!




I always use marbles! So I'm not skimping on the flavor well gotta get off my butt and get outside I could spend all day on this forum!! Have a good weekend!


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## TinyPirate (Apr 28, 2014)

Tonight I racked the plum, topped it off with a bit of blackcurrant I had left over. It's still not full enough really, but it will have to do. Also added bentonite and gave it some drill action. 

The blackcurrant got bentonite, k-meta, k-sorb and the drill. Here's hoping that will do the trick and keep it on track for a quick drinking DB!


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## TinyPirate (Apr 30, 2014)

20kg of feijoas! Should be enough to make the wine I want. It is hard to know with this fruit. I will have to make it and see, I guess!


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## TinyPirate (May 2, 2014)

Last night I added 700ml (a little more than a pint) of reduced pear juice to the pear wine. tonight I added pectinase to work on the bits that made it through my muslin. I'll give it a week or two and then degas and bentonite before leaving it until bottling time. I've kinda been "fiddling" with the plum and pear wine, but I think I've made up for their lack of fruit at the outset.

I've also chopped up about half of the feijoas (people at work keep giving them to me too!) and am close to having 10kg of chopped up feijoas - equivalent to about 20kg (40lb) of whole fruit. I'm wondering if 10kg will be enough to produce 23lt of good pear wine. It's such an unknown as the "best" recipe I've found simple says that 20kg of fruit was too hard to deal with, and 15 seemed about right. In particular this guy used 11kg of pulp, but I'm not sure I trust online recipes any more - they always seem short on taste (at least my pear and plum have been - perhaps they improve more in the bottle than I expect). I would love to avoid an f-pack as it adds at least another whole racking as well as more time clarifying. Rather want to get it right from the get-go!


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## Turock (May 3, 2014)

The way we do pear is just on the pears alone--no water. We clean them and freeze them first. We're usually working with at least 100# of pears. It takes 3 days to thaw so we layer meta into the fruit to prevent spoilage. Then we get a good dose of pectic enzyme on the pears as soon as we get them in the vat. And it's better to use a GOOD pectinase that is good on viscous must, like Lallzyme C-Max.

However, another way to prepare pears is to get yourself a fruit crusher. They are around $225, but they work with all kinds of fruit--even grapes. E C Kraus has a wooden one for that price. Crushing up the fruit would be a big advantage with pears and apples if you do those kinds of wine all the time. Maybe someone will give you an opinion of a good fruit crusher or shredder. It's something I've long considered on buying and would like other's opinion of the best ones.


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## TinyPirate (May 3, 2014)

I agree, that would be ideal, but this wine didn't start this way, and I will take it forward as-is. 

I am also not sure I can afford the required number of pears just for straight pear wine, as much as I would love to! That gets quite pricey!

Are there any fruits which are just fine with water added rather than only juice?


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## TinyPirate (May 4, 2014)

So jack Keller says the feijoas don't have much malic or tartaric acid and suggests adding both. Now, feijoas have plenty of citric acid, so why so we need to add the other two?


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## Turock (May 4, 2014)

Regarding pears---Do you have orchards around you? If so, stop in and talk to them--tell them you're a winemaker and you would be interested in their seconds and trash fruit. This is the way to get lots of fruit for pretty cheap. We pay 25 cents a pound for trash fruit. Most orchards will always have seconds. We got a couple hundred pounds of seconds, one year.

I'm totally unfamiliar with that fruit. However, there are many fruits that have citric as their predominate acid. I would think that instead of needing more acid, it might need calcium carbonate to raise the PH. What PH were you going to use for this fruit? IF the PH needs to be lowered, you can use acid blend which all 3 of the acids in it. However, some blends have 50% citric. There are some blends out there that are more balanced in the 3 acids if you would prefer not to add more citric.


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## TinyPirate (May 4, 2014)

It is between 3 and 4 - so I don't think it needs any adjustment. 

And yeah, bit far from orchards, but there are local markets where I can get good, cheap fruit (got pears at 30c NZ for 2lb once!). I am wondering how many pears you need for a no-water brew though!


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## Stressbaby (May 5, 2014)

TinyPirate,
I've only been at this a couple of years, I've got nowhere near as much experience as others...but I used to think that any pH from 3.0 to 3.7 was "good enough." 
This simply is not so. I distinctly remember Turock saying once that unless one particular wine was adjusted to 3.4 it tasted "like dishwater."
So I started paying much closer attention to the pH, making an extra effort to get the 3.6 fruit wines down to 3.4 or lower, and with much better results.
As a postfermentation example, my second ever batch of wine, carambola wine, I uncorked not once but _twice _to tweak the acid and pH. At one point I was considering dumping this wine. But with a pH of around 3.2 instead of 3.6 it is really a lovely wine! You are better off doing this prefermentation I believe, but either way it can make a big difference.
Bottom line, just getting pH between 3 and 4 is not good enough. A change in pH of 0.2 can make the difference between  and 
That's just my 2 cents.


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## TinyPirate (May 5, 2014)

Interesting, thanks! I remember that. I have only got ph strips, so I think the chance of getting the right levels from strips is slim (hence my "ish" estimate!). What sort of kit do I need to get a better reading?

As for what I should aim for... I have got NO idea, as no one seems to have taken and published a detailed approach to making wine with feijoa! 

Anyway, tonight I worked through another heap of feijoas and hit the 11kg that was recommend by a recipe elsewhere. I added 16lt of water, 2.7kg of sugar, 400g of raisins, 25g of oak chips, 3 campden tablets, and 2 tablespoons of pectinaise. 

Right now the SG is 1.060 (did I miss a 0 there?) I want to get it to 90-ish (or whatever the number is for about 12% - will check later). Tomorrow I will check ph as best I am able, check SG, add sugar, and the yeast starter, nutrient, booster, and sit back. 




This has been fun, but hard work! It has taken about 30kg of feijoas to make 11kg of pulp, which would be, at best, $60nz to buy (half were given to me, fortunately). Also, the bag of fruit is hard to handle - I am wondering if I should have thrown all the fruit in a juicer instead.


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## Turock (May 5, 2014)

You really need a PH meter for accurate PH measurement. When using strips, you should use narrow range strips instead of wide range. What does this fruit taste like? I'm debating if it should have a PH of 3.2 like a white wine or 3.4, and I agree with Stressbaby--you get the PH too high and it tastes flabby. 

On the pears, we always consider 10# per gallon and use no water. For a light pear, you could use less poundage. The variety of pear makes a difference in the resulting wine because some are not as flavorful as others. Use pears that have good flavor.


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## TinyPirate (May 5, 2014)

That's 5kg for about 4lt of liquid. Those are some juicy pears! I am wondering if next time I get some cheap fruit I should plan a wine from them after putting them through a juicer (thoughts?). This bulky must significantly complicates handling the wine. 

What sort of pH meter would you suggest? I have never seen one at the local home brew shop so I am not sure what to look for. Might have to pick one up online.

When I swabbed the feijoas they were close to 4 in pH, I think. They are, obviously, fairly watered down in their current state. Might I need to test and lower the pH into the 3 to 4 range (I am speaking in generalities because I can't measure better) and how would I do that? Lemon juice? Citric acid? Malic acid?


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## TinyPirate (May 5, 2014)

Oh, hey, found some vital stats on acid levels, what it tastes like, etc, etc: 

http://feijoafeijoa.wordpress.com/facts/

I would describe the taste as a mix of a pungent pear (feijoas have a strong smell, even uncut), mixed with a pineapple and a guava or something tropical like that.


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## Stressbaby (May 5, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Oh, hey, found some vital stats on acid levels, what it tastes like, etc, etc:
> 
> http://feijoafeijoa.wordpress.com/facts/
> 
> I would describe the taste as a mix of a pungent pear (feijoas have a strong smell, even uncut), mixed with a pineapple and a guava or something tropical like that.



That's what fiejoa is, right? Pineapple guava? 

I had 2 in the greenhouse, since they are not self-fertile. I got sparse blooms and no fruit (what do you expect in Missouri, right?). One died this past winter so I may pitch the other one.


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## TinyPirate (May 5, 2014)

Yup, you got it.


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## TinyPirate (May 6, 2014)

Pitched the yeast in my feijoa tonight after adding a ton of sugar to push it up to 1.090. It tastes nice, I would enjoy more feijoa flavor, but it seems pretty good and I think some more taste will be extracted from the fruit during fermentation. Well, hope so. 

You guys have definitely got me thinking about all-juice wines from now on. Just got to source the cheap fruit to not make it an expensive experiment.

Tested the pH - terrible strip sample photo below. I will try and find a better kit. 




Also racked and backsweetened my blackcurrant DB. I think it is coming along quite well!


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## fabrictodyefor (May 6, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> So jack Keller says the feijoas don't have much malic or tartaric acid and suggests adding both. Now, feijoas have plenty of citric acid, so why so we need to add the other two?



Someone else will come on and give you better information, but from what I have read and understand, you want a "balance" of the acids. That is often why we add "acid blend". I've just begun to touch the surface of the different acids!


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## TinyPirate (May 6, 2014)

Hmmm, ta! I expect I would want a decent pH test kit before I started messing with acid.


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## TinyPirate (May 6, 2014)

Dear readers: really thinking that in future I should just use juice and toss the pulp, etc. It is such a pain to deal with in the fermenter. This 11kg of feijoas in the bag... I wish I had just juiced them! It wouldn't make a difference, would it?


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## Turock (May 7, 2014)

Well, our experience with fruit as opposed to juice is that the wine made on pulp is better. Breaking down and integrating that pulp gives really good flavor. However, on a fruit like you're working with, juicing it might be better. I just have no experience with that fruit--and have no idea of what it even tastes like to be able to give you some solid advice on it.


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## TinyPirate (May 7, 2014)

Heh, ta! What differences does on the pulp make? Maybe there is a shortcut whereby half is juiced and half, pulp? 

It sounds like most of the "serious" fruit wine makers crush to extract juice and then ferment the juice and remaining pulp together. 

Perhaps I should worry less about it. I checked today and found that what was 11kg of must yesterday is probably barely 5kg today - the yeast, sugar and enzyme have really extracted out the liquid, meaning it is definitely easier to handle. 

It is an interesting challenge to get the right amount of fruit for the volume of wine you are planning to fill a secondary to. I guess if you have a big fruit crusher, no problem, squish until there is liquid to nearly the required level, chuck the must on top. But when you aren't pre-crushing your fruit, there's more guess-work, especially as you will need to add liquid (water) to give the yeast a playground. 

Short of a crusher, perhaps the trick is to juice enough to form a liquid base, and then add chopped fruit on top, knowing it will drop liquid according to ratios you will have worked out during juicing. 

...I do kind of obsess over these details...


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## TinyPirate (May 8, 2014)

Tried to juice 3lb of feijoas, got 1.5lb of what looks like smoothie! Chucked the lot info the fermenter instead. 

How could I juice these things for an all-juice wine? Haha!

The must also didn't juice. Just turned to purée. Chucked it back in as well. Ahh well, no harm done!


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## Turock (May 8, 2014)

Well, puree is just fine to make wine with.


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## TinyPirate (May 8, 2014)

Wow, really? So would you, essentially, purée certain fruits, add sugar, dose with pectinaise, pitch yeast a day later and then sit back and watch the liquid split out from the mass? Does that work????

I wish there were better books on this. Most suggest simple approaches involving some fruit chopped up in water - I am less and less convinced this is best. 

Perhaps for my next wine I should purée a ton of feijoas and ferment the mush? How will I work out the SG? Just add sugar to a calculated amount by volume, I guess.


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## Jericurl (May 8, 2014)

> I wish there were better books on this. Most suggest simple approaches involving some fruit chopped up in water - I am less and less convinced this is best.



Looks like you are the pioneering winemaker on this particular type.
Maybe you should write the book (after you post the perfect recipe in our recipes section!). It's been interesting following your process on this. I'm glad you are keeping us updated.


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## TinyPirate (May 8, 2014)

I mean on home fruit wine making in general! But yes, on this recipe I definitely doing a lot of my own thing.


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## CCGrapes (May 8, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Tried to juice 3lb of feijoas, got 1.5lb of what looks like smoothie! Chucked the lot info the fermenter instead.
> 
> How could I juice these things for an all-juice wine? Haha!
> 
> ...



This reminds me of when I tried to juice peaches; all I got was mush. It still made great wine though.

Try a steam juicer. You will get the juice but no pulp. A friend does this with lots of kinds of fruit. Excess pectin release in the juice could be a problem although I haven't heard of it happening.

Steve

Steve


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## TinyPirate (May 8, 2014)

Not sure I want to buy another piece of equipment just yet!

So, let me get this right: if you get mush, that's ok: mush in the bucket will split into juice and must as yeast and pectin do their jobs. Is that right???


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## CCGrapes (May 8, 2014)

After you have gotten as much juice as you can, place the pulp (mush) in a strainer bag and drop the bag into your fermenter. You will need to squeeze out the bag when you do the first transfer.
Steve


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## TinyPirate (May 8, 2014)

Cool. For 10lb of fruit I will barely get a cup of juice right away, I expect. Is that mass going to ok to ferment on?


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## TinyPirate (May 10, 2014)

Started the feijoa six days ago, pitched the yeast five days ago and today the SG is at 1.004, going pretty strong! 

It is definitely slowing down so I will probably rack it tomorrow and get it under airlock after treating with some k-meta.


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## TinyPirate (May 12, 2014)

Posted more details on the DB thread, but here is my blackcurrant Dragon's Blood- all bottled and poorly labeled (ran out of ink)!

View attachment 15710


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## TinyPirate (May 12, 2014)

Forgot to mention some details on the feijoa: I racked it tonight into the secondary - SG of 0.95, so it has dropped quick. It is dry, I would guess, but it seems quite alcoholic... Damn it, my calculator suggests 16%! Arg, no wonder fermentation has slowed down (although it is also getting cold here, 60F in the garage). I was trying to follow roughly the DB approach and so started at 1.090.

Anyway, I have to go away for a couple of weeks soon so I will check it when I get back, rack it at least. From there, not sure, if it is as strong as it seems I am really going to have to do something about it. Probably purée some feinoas and add them and sorbate for flavor and booze dilution. It will probably take ages to clear, but that is probably the only way to pull things back. Fortunately I have a bit of head room to work with in this temporary container(borrowing plastic until I can get my hands on a big glass carboy soon).


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## sour_grapes (May 12, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Forgot to mention some details on the feijoa: I racked it tonight into the secondary - SG of 0.95, so it has dropped quick. It is dry, I would guess, but it seems quite alcoholic... Damn it, my calculator suggests 16%! Arg, no wonder fermentation has slowed down (although it is also getting cold here, 60F in the garage). I was trying to follow roughly the DB approach and so started at 1.090.



It is almost certainly the case that your SG is 0.995, not 0.950. The former value would imply an ABV of 12.5%, which is probably where you want it.


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## TinyPirate (May 12, 2014)

Thank goodness, and yes, I would say you are right. 

I am trying to remember if the pear (most similar brew I have made) tasted like this when it was fresh. Pretty much booze with feijoa, very raw. Hoping it blends nicely and goes smooth in due course!


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## TinyPirate (May 14, 2014)

@peaches9324 @sour_grapes - do you have some links to example marbles? I looked for some toy ones around here (the type kids play with) and they're expensive. I found the gravel/stones one puts in a fish tank, but I'm not sure they're food safe.

Also, I'm planning to bulk age the pear and plum at least six months. Is there any reason not to sorbate, back sweeten and bottle then and aging for another 6+ months? I wouldn't mind reusing those carboys!


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## StoneCreek (May 14, 2014)

I've enjoyed reading this thread and found some useful info in here. Just to add my two cents, You can't puree every fruit! Don't ever try pureeing Cactus Pears (prickly pears)!! all you'll wind up with is a thick syrup that will not give up its juice no matter how much enzyme you use or sugars. i recently poured out 6 gal of said failed experiment.


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## TinyPirate (May 14, 2014)

Ouch! You have worried me enough that I have gone off and emailed a small commercial fruit winery to ask how they juice their feijoas. Hopefully they will be kind enough to clue me in as to what they do.

I almost wonder if a thread where extraction techniques for various fruits are compared, for example, plums: freeze and mash and only use the juice that comes out and the fruit? Skins on? Pears: freeze, mash and bucket? Etc. And how much fruit per gallon of juice is usually required, and so on.


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## peaches9324 (May 14, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> @peaches9324 @sour_grapes - do you have some links to example marbles? I looked for some toy ones around here (the type kids play with) and they're expensive. I found the gravel/stones one puts in a fish tank, but I'm not sure they're food safe.
> 
> Also, I'm planning to bulk age the pear and plum at least six months. Is there any reason not to sorbate, back sweeten and bottle then and aging for another 6+ months? I wouldn't mind reusing those carboys!



no not the gravel! Check your local craft store, used for flower arrangements also. I'll check to see if I can find a link


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## peaches9324 (May 14, 2014)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TM3AO4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 like these


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## Deezil (May 16, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> One year! Ouch! Why are the time differences so great between, say, a plum wine and a DB? Is part of it down to the fruit? Or something in the making? I want to understand the principles better. And how about the pear?



It comes down to the fruit, in a sense.. The more fruit you use in a wine, the higher the amount of Total Dissolved Solids becomes..



TinyPirate said:


> What differences does on the pulp make? Maybe there is a shortcut whereby half is juiced and half, pulp?
> 
> It sounds like most of the "serious" fruit wine makers crush to extract juice and then ferment the juice and remaining pulp together.
> 
> Perhaps I should worry less about it. I checked today and found that what was 11kg of must yesterday is probably barely 5kg today - the yeast, sugar and enzyme have really extracted out the liquid, meaning it is definitely easier to handle.



As you noticed yourself, the pulp seems to liquify. The fruit breaks down from the yeast, heat and enzymes (pectic enzyme we add being a major one).. But this doesnt mean those 'solids' are 'gone'. They're dissolved, they're within the solution, more available for chemical reactions.. These reactions are what lead to the flavors, aromas, and textures within wine.. 

But these reactions take time.



TinyPirate said:


> So, let me get this right: if you get mush, that's ok: mush in the bucket will split into juice and must as yeast and pectin do their jobs. Is that right???





TinyPirate said:


> I almost wonder if a thread where extraction techniques for various fruits are compared, for example, plums: freeze and mash and only use the juice that comes out and the fruit? Skins on? Pears: freeze, mash and bucket? Etc. And how much fruit per gallon of juice is usually required, and so on.



Freeze all your fruits, if you can. Except wine grapes.

I had a red raspberry wine that had the consistency of apple sauce prior to fermentation; I was called crazy at the time lol. Had I known enough to pre-adjust the acidity ahead of time, it would have turned out fine.. 112lbs of red raspberries could have made 7-8 gallons of wine; it was a monster. Point is, post-fermentation, what was apple-sauce consistency, was only then 1/3-1/4 sediment.. Which after isolating, degassing and racking off the wine as it settled, ended up being about 1.5 gallons of sludge.

What didnt turn into sludge, was dissolved and is still aging in the carboys sitting behind me. A *whole lot* of berry, that wouldnt be in the wine, if I'd just started with juice, or made a wine that was more along the lines of a DB-style. 

So mush is preferred, for bold flavor. Skins on or off, depends on what fruit you're working with and is mostly something you'll learn in time.. I like my peach and pear wines skin-off but apples dont matter; this is part of what makes everyones wines a little different. 



TinyPirate said:


> Also, I'm planning to bulk age the pear and plum at least six months. Is there any reason not to sorbate, back sweeten and bottle then and aging for another 6+ months? I wouldn't mind reusing those carboys!



But with the mush-type musts, comes the higher dissolved solids, comes more flavor, aroma... But this takes more time, there's more reactions that need to happen before the alcohol settles into the background, before the tannins calm down, before the flavors and aromas really start to stand out.... I bulk age for ~18 months, but it's because it needs that time.

Were you to bottle early, and you happened to get all the sediment out, you may find slight variation from bottle to bottle - some bottles might have had just a little bit more tannin, some less; some might have a little more bite than others, some might oxidize or age faster... Bulk aging for longer lowers the chances of these things happening, alongside giving you more time to properly assess the characteristics of the wine in front of you.. You dont have to guess about if it needs sweetened, or more flavor, or another layering of extracts, or if you want to blend it with another flavor... You have the opportunity to let the wine come of age, as a bulk unit, and bottle it when its ready for bottles



TinyPirate said:


> Do you MLF all your fruit wines? This isn't something I know a lot about.



Turock is pretty well-informed; the apple & pear are great MLF'd in my opinion - I just prefer them that way. I'm also going to be experimenting with MLF on a few other fruits, but it's not something I've done and seen, to recommend to others (and Turock has previously told me he wouldnt, but I'm hard-headed lol)


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## TinyPirate (May 16, 2014)

Thanks for that awesome explanation and detail! I have a lot to think about now. My greatest concern is processing the feijoa for maximum flavour. I might have to suck it and see and try to ferment it as a purée. 

I am sure I will have more comments as questions later. Ta for the help!


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## TinyPirate (May 16, 2014)

Was at a market just now and nabbed 6kg of white table grapes for$10nz (12lb for $8us). Plan to add those to all the feijoas I have left to kick off some feijoa port. I will brew and sugar the hell out of the stuff, an then go about the usual aging and fortifying process. Going to try pureeing the feijoas too. Wish me luck!


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## TinyPirate (May 17, 2014)

Today I started another feijoa wine. 5kg off feijoa, 6kg of white table grapes and 6lt of water. I haven't added sugar yet, but that addition should put me in the vicinity of 12lt of liquid once I am done - enough for two local carboys. 

I am hoping the fairly substantial amount of fruit in this will really make for some nice flavor, and folks here suggest grape juice is a nice addition to fruit wines - so let's see how it goes!


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## TinyPirate (May 17, 2014)

Oh, some help with the grapes was provided!


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## Turock (May 17, 2014)

You asked about bottling the pear and plum and sorbate. Be sure to bulk age these wines at least one year. 6 months is too soon to bottle anything. Do not sorbate until bottling time. Wine needs to be clear before sorbate will work. When you backsweeten and add the sorbate, be sure to dissolve the sorbate in some water before adding to the wine.


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## TinyPirate (May 17, 2014)

Thanks, Turock. I will try to be patient and follow your advice!


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## TinyPirate (May 18, 2014)

It was interesting to see the must this morning - I can see precisely why grapes have been a staple of winemaking: Overnight there was a distinct layer of clear juice on the top, sediment on the bottom. So easy! 

Pitched the yeast this morning after getting the must up to 1.092. That should do the trick. Thirty minutes later and it's all trucking along already. I'm expecting another fast ferment.

I haven't added raisins to this batch (duh, it's got grapes in it - right?) and I haven't added any tanning (just because, no clear reason why). It will be interesting to see how it goes.

Oh, the batch appears to be around pH 4 (as discussed, my test kit is terrible and I haven't seen one around here I could use that would be better - there are no other kits in the wine shop!). I'll want that to be in the 3-range, right? What's the best way to do that? HALP!


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## Turock (May 18, 2014)

At this point, I think I'd just let the ferment go. Best to adjust acid pre-ferment. Later on, in the post ferment you can taste it and see what you think. Not so sure of accuracy of the testing method. Are you able to find a PH meter online that you could buy? A meter is the most accurate test method.


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## TinyPirate (May 18, 2014)

Do you have any you could recommend? Googling returns me lots of places selling strips. 

Well, it looks like I have a stuck ferment. Checked this morning and the bucket is silent. No fizzing sound. The starter was happily fizzing and bubbling last night before I pitched it, and I think after as well, but, damn it, it's silent today.


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## Deezil (May 18, 2014)

Just because it's rather silent doesnt mean there's no action.. Check it with a hydrometer tonight and in the morning, for any change.. Also make sure its in the 70's, and if the SG is still above ~1.070, stir it up really good to whip some oxygen in there

I have & use a MW102 pH meter; love the thing.. Just around $100 with extra storage solution, 4.0 & 7.0 calibrating solutions.. I got mine at MoreWine


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## TinyPirate (May 18, 2014)

Thanks for the tips. Asked my wife to check the bucket just now and it was completely silent. It may have got too cold last night and stopped all fermenting? It is entering winter here, the overnight low was 55f - it would have been warmer inside, but not in the 70s. 

Am going to the brew shop later to buy more yeast (why not).

It could also be sulphites.. I added 2-3 campden tablets to my must (3 us gallons and fruit). I don't think that will be too much. 

Tonight I shall try some new yeast in some must sample. If it doesn't take off I will know I have some issue like that. If I does, I will keep the heater on overnight!

Oh, will also pick up some kind of acid adjustment stuff from the shop. For a white grape and white fruit, what would be best to push me into 3 from 4 pH?


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## TinyPirate (May 19, 2014)

Brew warmed up an now it bubbles again! Hurrah! 

Now to adjust acidity...


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## TinyPirate (May 19, 2014)

Now, I know you're not supposed to do this, but, hell, sometimes a man has to do, what a man has to do: I adjusted the pH while the yeast was bubbling away. I gave it a sprinkle of nutrient and begged forgiveness.

So I had a wee taste of the brew and it was definitely sweet and lacking in some punch. Flabby, right? So I added (in the end) 1 and 1/4 tsp of tartaric acid and it put it back into punch with a bit of bite. I can see why this is done best in the primary, it was definitely a little 'sharp' at the corners of the tongue. I'm expecting (?) it will smooth out and calm down over the fermentation and produce a nice, crisp drink.


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## TinyPirate (May 20, 2014)

This second batch of feijoa is making up for lost time and really humming along - 1.052 tonight. There is a good head on it, like a beer, that pushes through the older, ran-colored head when it can. 

When it gets down to 1.000-ish I will throw it in carboys and see how we are doing.


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## Turock (May 20, 2014)

For fruit, you can use acid blend to lower the PH. For grapes, use tartaric acid. To raise the PH on fruit or grape wine, use calcium carbonate. You should get in the habit of testing and adjusting PH before you begin your ferments. You're resulting wine will be balanced and no problems to correct in the secondary.


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## TinyPirate (May 22, 2014)

So, got a second-hand carboy, racked my pear wine into it, picked it up and....




Five liters of wine all over the garage floor. Arg! The bottom clean sheared off. So annoying!


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## TinyPirate (May 22, 2014)

Tasted the pear before I lost it all and it was ok, bit flabby and in need of acid, I reckon. Another nod to needing to test at primary ferment. 

I also racked the feijoa-grape tonight and found it quite sharp. I think I added too much tartaric acid. Hope it calms down in a bit. 

I also ended up with 15 liters of wine, far more than I expected. I had 9lt of liquid (6 water, 3 grape juice), 2.5kg of sugar (probably counting as 2lt of liquid) and then I suppose the remaining 4 liters were sucked out of the 3kg of grape skins and 5kg of feijoa. That is far more than I expected and so I was sad to not be able to have more concentrated flavour.


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## sour_grapes (May 22, 2014)

Arggh, sorry to hear that TinyPirate. That really smarts.


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## TinyPirate (May 23, 2014)

Yeah! So frustrating!

I am feeling kinda like trying a wine kit because I want to know I will get a good result. I am really unsure if any of my current concoctions will be drinkable. The pear definitely needed acid before it was trashed, wonder what the others will need and if I can pull it off...


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## Turock (May 23, 2014)

Well, don't get discouraged. You learn a lot by making wine from fruit and grapes and not relying on a kit to have it all done for you. I know it seems like a high hill to climb, but one day all the things you learned and mistakes you made start making sense to you as you get stronger in the science part. Then it all begins to "click" in your head. It took me a number of years--and alot of study--to start making sense of it all.


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## TinyPirate (May 23, 2014)

What are the science parts I need to work on? It looks like pH is pretty important as well as cramming in as much fruit as I can!


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## Turock (May 24, 2014)

It's important to understand nutrient use. When to pitch tannin, bentonite,etc. as these additions can inactivate enzymes. Sorbate use is something many people don't understand. It's important to know HOW these things work--not just blindly throwing them in and not knowing the science of how it works. It's important to know WHY you're doing WHAT you're doing.


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## TinyPirate (Jun 4, 2014)

Haven't posted in a bit because I am waiting for a 23lt carboy to turn up at the local. Meanwhile, my grape/feijoa and my straight feijoa sit and wait for racking space.


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## TinyPirate (Jun 7, 2014)

Right! Got my 23lt jar today and racked my feijoa and my feijoa and grape. 

Both smell great but... I think (please confirm!!)... taste young. There is the alcohol up front and the fruit behind (but there is nice fruit there, that is for sure). A little sweetening of my sample glasses and it tasted nice, except for (what I hope) is the taste of young wine. 

Photos: the reason the right one is darker is due to the oaking in the primary. Or oxidization, I guess! Hopefully the former.


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## TinyPirate (Jun 12, 2014)

One month on! Gave the blackcurrant a go! I like it, fruity and nice. Not complex, just nice, easy drinking. Next time I think I will chuck some oak in to give it some nice body. Quite pleased!

View attachment 16222


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## TinyPirate (Jul 5, 2014)

Not sure I reported further on my blackcurrant DB. To recap: it was made with about twice the fruit and half the lemon of the normal recipe. I tried it after 1 month in the bottle and whole it isn't bad tasting but on reflection, it is fairly sour. I think this is a function of blackcurrant (I would be curious how "proper" blackcurrant wines handle this). I am hoping the acid will soften with some more time in the bottle. 

In good news I have found a local wine makers club and they have some very experienced makers (including a guy who judges competitions) an they have promised honest feedback! So, next meeting, a 2 month old bottle of mine will make a showing. 

At the last meeting I was also treated to a very nice blueberry wine one of the members made. The recipe is similar to the DB approach and so I am definitely considering another batch made to that approach.


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## TinyPirate (Jul 5, 2014)

In other news, racked my plum today with an eye on bottling it soon as I want to use the carboy and the wine level is getting worryingly low. 

A taste suggested a really drinkable wine coming along! I don't think I will back-sweeten - I will just add some Kmeta and bottle.


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## TinyPirate (Jul 22, 2014)

Bottled the plum last week. I am really pleased with it and I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.

I would say that the flavour pack definitely added taste and body. I am wondering if people f-pack in wines with even a good, strong dose of fruit? I only added an f-pack as I felt the fruit taste and content was far too low/weak after fermentation. But maybe an f-pack is always helpful with fruit wines. 

In other news, started a boysenberry wine (2kg of fruit in 4lt of sugar/water so it should be tasty) and I am talking to a distiller friend (it is legal here in NZ) about making plum brandy next year and then a plum port. Yummy!


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## TinyPirate (Jul 29, 2014)

The boysenberry after the first rack. It dropped a LOT of sediment! And there's more to go. I think I will lose one liter of the five-and-a-bit I started with.

In other news I tried some of the feijoa sweetened with honey and it is really, really nice that way. Currently planning to sweeten all 30lt with honey after doing some taste testing and comparisons with a mate.


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## TinyPirate (Aug 9, 2014)

Been reading the reddit for Mead and I have noticed many of them recommend adding fruit to the secondary. Is that common? I would have thought you would chuck it in the primary as you would with normal wine to extract maximum flavor and to help feed the yeast.


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## TinyPirate (Oct 22, 2014)

Hello! Long time no write.. because.. well, wine making takes time and I had nothing new to share.

So I took my plum, blackcurrant and my honey'd feijoa (backsweetened to nearly 1.020 - 1.9kg of honey in 28lt of wine) to the wine club and made them all taste it. The verdicts:

Plum: Has taste of fusel alcohols in there - probably due to too warm a ferment. Boo, shame! 

Feijoa: The honey may be adding an odd taste. It's best to brew with honey if you plan to sweeten with honey was the suggestion. And better than backsweetening is to stop a ferment early at the sugar level you want so you can produce a more integrated flavor. They also thought it had oxidized - probably due to the stupid way the 23lt jar is capped (I let the water "moat" evaporate down too far) and how much I had to mix the wine to get the honey in.

Blackcurrant: This surprised me, they really liked it! "Good balance, fruit, mouth feel" "good one!". I was surprised because when I bottled it I thought it was far too tart, but now that the brew is 6 months old it has mellowed and 'evened' out a lot.

So, there you go.


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## Floandgary (Oct 22, 2014)

I've found that Dried Black Currant is a great "go-to" for smoothing those sharp edges on the heavy reds.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 22, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Hello! Long time no write.. because.. well, wine making takes time and I had nothing new to share.



That doesn't stop most of us!! 

Thanks for the update, and good luck with the interesting batches.


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## Deezil (Oct 24, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Bottled the plum last week. I am really pleased with it and I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.
> 
> I would say that the flavour pack definitely added taste and body. I am wondering if people f-pack in wines with even a good, strong dose of fruit? I only added an f-pack as I felt the fruit taste and content was far too low/weak after fermentation. But maybe an f-pack is always helpful with fruit wines.



I haven't tried plum yet; apparently I need to..

Flavor packs are only useful until you start getting your feet wet in 'all-fruit'/no water methods; it's kind of hard to 'add more flavor' to something that's already fruit juice lol

But yes, it's possible to f-pack with fruit - and that's basically what you stumbled on in the Mead reddit that you mention below:



TinyPirate said:


> Been reading the reddit for Mead and I have noticed many of them recommend adding fruit to the secondary. Is that common? I would have thought you would chuck it in the primary as you would with normal wine to extract maximum flavor and to help feed the yeast.



They do this to avoid the heat build up and yeast activity levels that happen during the beginning stages of fermentation. With some of the red grapes, too hot of a fermentation can lead to 'cooked fruit'-type flavors; the same, in essence, it true for other fruits, in that the fermentation process alters the original flavor of the fruit into something, most times, more complex; like blueberry wine to me comes off very Merlot-ish, doesnt taste very much like popping a fresh blueberry in my mouth. 

When you add the fruit later, there's not as many yeast to chew on the tidbits of that fruit, so its more of a fruit-flavor addition than it is a fermentation-sugar/feed the yeast addition.. 

It's something usually done more often in the meadmakers/mazers circuits, but when 90-95% of the wine you've made all tastes like honey, I'd probably wanna change things up a bit here and there as well.. It's a decent technique though, and has its place in particular applications.


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## TinyPirate (Oct 25, 2014)

Ta for the feedback. Wouldn't too hot a ferment also be a problem fruit wine makers come across? We don't seek to separate the sugar water ferment from the fruit flavor addition?

After making the blackcurrant and feijoa wines my concern about an all-fruit wine is that many fruits don't have balanced acidity. Those two fruits mentioned, in juice form, would be quite a bit too tart of brewed as-is. Do all-juice brewers spend time adding calc carb to reduce acidity? If would seem required. 

Another question for all: the best winemaker at the club prefers to step-add the sugar to the primary so as to not over stress the yeast. He also claims you can, using this technique (and... magic??) stop a ferment at the SG you want and then bulk age it safely as needed. In this way you get a more integrated taste and less of a "this tastes sweetened" sensation. 

Thing is, how does one do this without simply cranking the %vol up to 16ish percent? The only time I figure the ferment would stop is when the yeast runs out of sugar or the percent is too high. 

I might have misunderstood some piece - there was the implication of racking in there to reduce the amount of yeast cells kicking around, but he explicitly stated he doesn't use sorbate in this process... Does anyone here use a similar process and can explain it? I plan to ask further, of course, but am looking for more thoughts.


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## Deezil (Oct 25, 2014)

TinyPirate said:


> Ta for the feedback. Wouldn't too hot a ferment also be a problem fruit wine makers come across? We don't seek to separate the sugar water ferment from the fruit flavor addition?
> 
> After making the blackcurrant and feijoa wines my concern about an all-fruit wine is that many fruits don't have balanced acidity. Those two fruits mentioned, in juice form, would be quite a bit too tart of brewed as-is. Do all-juice brewers spend time adding calc carb to reduce acidity? If would seem required.



Too hot of a ferment is always a problem, yes, but some fruits - blackberries, cherries, currants, elderberries - will give a different flavor profile when fermented in the 80's, with wine yeasts that were isolated for "big reds".. When you make a fruit wine in the style of a large red, it takes a little more heat in the fermentation for that almost over-extraction of color, depth, flavor and tannins.. But it can also give that "cooked-fruit" taste, instead of the "fresh fruit" taste..

All-fruit wines are all about pre-fermentation adjustments.. Reducing the acidity with calcium carbonates is often the course of action, but the work is worth the reward. 

We don't separate the sugar-water from the fruit additions, in most cases, because the yeast cant survive on sugar-water and we'd have to supplement that with more nutrients - the yeast will consume the vitamins, minerals and other nutrients found within the fruit-used, as the yeast needs it.. With every seasons fruit and every yeast colony being different, its probably impossible to quantify exactly but I'm relatively certain (intuition, not science-based fact) that the yeast consuming some of these elements is part of the overall impact that the fermentation has on the fruit flavor, alongside what the other factors contribute - ferment yeast, fruit breakdown, time spent, etc..



TinyPirate said:


> Another question for all: the best winemaker at the club prefers to step-add the sugar to the primary so as to not over stress the yeast. He also claims you can, using this technique (and... magic??) stop a ferment at the SG you want and then bulk age it safely as needed. In this way you get a more integrated taste and less of a "this tastes sweetened" sensation.
> 
> Thing is, how does one do this without simply cranking the %vol up to 16ish percent? The only time I figure the ferment would stop is when the yeast runs out of sugar or the percent is too high.
> 
> I might have misunderstood some piece - there was the implication of racking in there to reduce the amount of yeast cells kicking around, but he explicitly stated he doesn't use sorbate in this process... Does anyone here use a similar process and can explain it? I plan to ask further, of course, but am looking for more thoughts.



Step-adding the sugar is a bit of a personal choice in most cases, and is more popular when trying to push the ABV-limits of the yeast being used. I would be curious if he can pinpoint the "this is sweetened" taste in wine that he hasnt made... It could be "all in his head", if he knows he's back-sweetened something instead of adding the sugar up front; he would just know he added extra sugar, and it wouldnt/might not feel as cohesive as it would had the sugar been in there since before the action quit..

It's not necessarily about when you add the sugar, as it is about the final-balance of the wine.. The sugar needs to balance with the acidity, that both need to balance with the alcohol level and tannin levels; all of which is the structure for the wine to taste the way your mind thinks it should..

And it sounds like he's stopping the fermentation using at-home techniques that wineries will perform.. I tend to leave it up to the wineries, as they have the proper equipment to know they wont be making bottle-bombs. I put too much money, time and effort into my wine to even consider letting it repaint anything at all..

I've done it, but I dont recommend it.

You can do a combination of degassing the wine, then chilling the wine, then racking off the sediment before it warms up.. When wineries rack though, and they want to do this sorbate-less, they'll generally rack through a fine-micron filter, filtering out the yeast also left in suspension in the 'wine-column' (it's not water, lol)... 

So they suck the CO2 out (or, atleast I did), so the sediment has nothing holding it back - think about two football teams, then take one football team off the field (CO2), pretty easy to score then yeah?..

So the sediment falls, then they chill the wine, causing any free floating yeast to slow down their metabolism and lose their activity level, while still having no CO2 to hold them up... Each step takes days / a week / maybe two weeks.. Then they'll rack off the sediment, and run the wine through a .5 micron filter, I believe, to sterile-filter it... And then, bulk age it, to see if it starts up again..

Possible, sure.. Worth the effort? Noticeable difference? Not enough so, for the large majority of us.. But do you consciously know that there's a difference there? Of course.... So I think he may just be a bit 'mental' over it.. Not a bad thing, but recognize it for what it is at least..

You can cheapen the process, remove a step, etc, but the chances of making bottle bombs increases..


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## TinyPirate (Dec 20, 2014)

Here is my Feijoa and honey!




In my opinion it has come together really well. It is, I think, somewhat more alcoholic than is ideal. It should be 12% but it hits me harder. Perhaps there was more sugar in the fruit than one might expect. 

The wine has been bentonited and bottled. Got substantial amounts so have enjoyed being able to share it. People are saying nice things, too! 

It's closest grape wine would be an ice wine or late harvest wine. I wouldn't say it is a sweet as a desert wine, but it is a bit sweet.


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