# Just ordered some Vines...



## Lizerdking (Jan 10, 2012)

25 Marquette and 25 Landot Noir from Double A... Shipping in April

I've been reading, watching videos, and reading some more for the past 6 months or so, I'm ready to start growing this year. Going to try to get the site ready as soon as the weather breaks. Any Assistance in getting started would be greatly appreciated.


I have a bunch of old telephone poles that I'll be cutting down to serve as the trellis posts, Any tips on where to buy wire/hardware? Tips on what to buy?

Looks like Low Cordon for both of these varieties, correct?

Deer/Bunnies are thick in my area, Any worries on them destroying everything before they have a chance to take hold? 

Blue Tubes or no Blue Tubes? I'm leaning toward yes....

3 years is going to be a long wait.... ugh


Arg, I put this in the wrong section... Help Mod's?


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jan 10, 2012)

Congrads on getting the vineyard going 

I use the pink 2 piece tubes, others use the blue ones and I think there are others out there, but their main pourpose is to give protection to the young plants. They work well with the rabbits, if deer are a problem you can stack them on top of each other and run them two high. 

I would wait to double stack them untill they start poking out the top and you notice the deer eating them, but put the tubes on as soon as you plant them.

I like the two piece ones because if you have an agressive plant that branches out fast in the first year ( like Frontenac does) it is easy to get them off, just snap them in half. The one piece ones you have to try to slide them off the top of the plant without tearing it up ( the plant).

The two piece have thier issues, a PITA to put together, I just grab a beer and a lawn chair and spend a while snapping them together.

Telephone poles will work well. I would suggest to use them as end posts and steel "T" bars inbetween, it makes it easy to mow.

I picked up wire at a local farm and home supply, my runs are about 100-150 ft long, so I used the 12.5g high tensil wire. It cost about the same as a vineyard supply with out the shipping. If you have longer runs I would use the 9g wire but for the few plants you have it is difficult to work with.

I know how you feel about the time, mine should produce this year, the first two years you spend a lot of time mowing.

Good luck


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## ibglowin (Jan 10, 2012)

The best place to get vineyard or orchard supplies for the little guy (or big guy) is Orchard Valley Supply They have the right wire you need (12.5 gauge) for a trellis and they sell it in small amounts (500ft) so you don't have a bunch of waste. The In-Line Wire Tightener's are cheap and work like a charm as well.


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## grapeman (Jan 10, 2012)

In the spring when you begin, an application of Roundup or generic for it will help kill the grass rather than just turning it under. Wait at least a few days before tilling to give the Roundup a chance to translocate throughout the root system to effect the killing. Be sure the ground is worked well before planting.

If you have some time for reading check out my thread on Fine Vine Wines to follow along from planting to opening a small commercial vineyard and winery. Some of the pictures are missing after a while because they were lost in the Forum move this year. 
http://forum.finevinewines.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1474&title=champlain-valley-my-vineyard
I am co-admin with Wade over at that forum if you are nervous about going to a link somewhere else.

I think VSP with a mid-wire cordon would be fine for both, but I am researching alternatives for Marquette. I hope to be able to report more data on a new system later this year using a modified Geneva Double Curtain approach I developed. This last year I had a 250% yield increase with that new system over three other training systems. Get your posts, lower wire and vines in this year and I should have more information by the end of this upcoming growing season. Then you can make an informed decision on how to train the vines next year. Remember this year you are working on growing a very healthy root system (fed by a nice vigorous top this year).


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## saddlebronze (Jan 10, 2012)

Just sharing some thoughts as I am in the same place on the process, but had a vineyard years ago. First step is to have the soil tested to see what things to add as the soil overwinters. I got mine done at Uconn for 8 bucks so you should have an option near you. Agree on the poles for end posts and t posts for line posts. Deep tilling seems to be the next step in order to really break up the soil. (A backhoe is best). As for tubes, it seems like if you have a lot of wildlife pressure, you are going to need fencing and netting, at least that is what I am planning for. The literature is mixed on tubes. As for waiting three years, depending on the vigor of your site, you may be able to take a SMALL crop off after 2 years (like two clusters per cane). As for trellis, the dominant style now is vertical shoot positioning (VSP) where the fruiting zone is on the bottom wire and all the growth is stuffed up into the catch wires. Can't wait to share our experiences.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 10, 2012)

it wont be a long wait because even at 50 vines you are going to be one busy person! make sure we get some pics as you go along~!


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jan 10, 2012)

one more note, when running you lowest wire, make sure you mower will fit under it, Makes life a lot easer


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## AlFulchino (Jan 10, 2012)

then again a bare vineyard floor means no need for a mower......actually this is a good subject to discuss...i posit that no plant material under the vines is the way to go because in wetter climes you do not need more host material for pathogens and insects near your vines


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## Lizerdking (Jan 11, 2012)

The site is an old cow pasture (been 20 years since there's been a cow in it). The soil is amazing, I grew a variety of tomatoes there last year that went out of control without fertilizing... I just bushhogged the entire area this fall and I was planning on round-up'ing the rows under the wire. Once everything dies back and I get the vines get in the ground, running rows of mulch... Field grass is already planted and thick in the area and i was going to keep this cut short between rows. 

I haven't measured things out, but it's the top of a hill that it will be on. If i run out of room I may have to start running them down the slope (15 degree?). Never seen anyone plant on a hillside, any worries?

I'll look more into blue/pink tubes, the bunny factor worries me... 

Been toying with the idea of an electric fence for bambi, If i'm buying wire and setting posts anyhow, it may be by the end of the summer if i have time.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 11, 2012)

it may have been said already...get your ph checked...dont skip this if at all possible...
some folks are fans of the tubes..i am not.....but if you do utilize them then make sure you monitor the foliage inside them for sun burn...the tubes act like greenhouses and do a quick burn on your vines

question for you....you already purchased the vines..or at least ordered them.....and now you are wondering about running out room? did you measure your site and decide on row and interplant spacing? you need to do that now

as far as 15 degrees...steep but not insurmountable...using a tractor? then you have to up and down hill....does this orientation come close to north south? if you have to go parellel to the slope to achieve a north south angle or something close....how are your ankles and are you using a wheel barrel? 

sprayer for fungicide? a realistic one
weed control plan? a realistic one
fertilizing plan?
watering plan? a realistic one
time management plan....do you have a wife and kids perhaps???? events happen as does bad weather....and you may have a window of opportunity on a saturday from 9 am to 1 pm to spray weeds...and fungicide and that is the same day as the little one's play or worse for you, the shopping trip you promised the Mrs. 

on and on we can go.......go over these items for your own benefit


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## AlFulchino (Jan 11, 2012)

one other quick note....consider electric fence for fifty vines....it is cheaper...can be moved easily.....if you have deer then your traditional fence has to be 8-9 feet high i believe and that may be an eyesore....electric fence tape is the way i would go


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jan 11, 2012)

What Al said!

When planting give them 8' between plants and 10' between rows or wider if you have a large tractor.

As for a slope, have you seen France and German vineyards? Just becarefull on the slope with the tractor.


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## Deezil (Jan 11, 2012)

Thats about the steepness ill be dealing with, when i dive into growing grapes.. The hill is probably that tall too...


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## Lizerdking (Jan 12, 2012)

AlFulchino said:


> it may have been said already...get your ph checked...dont skip this if at all possible...
> some folks are fans of the tubes..i am not.....but if you do utilize them then make sure you monitor the foliage inside them for sun burn...the tubes act like greenhouses and do a quick burn on your vines
> 
> question for you....you already purchased the vines..or at least ordered them.....and now you are wondering about running out room? did you measure your site and decide on row and interplant spacing? you need to do that now
> ...



PH - I can get it tested, but what am I looking for? And If it's not what i want, what can be done to change it? I've never gotten too complex with gardening, and have always had success.

Spacing - Check, was planning on 6-8' between plants, 6-8' between rows, running north/south. Plenty of land out back, it's just very overgrown. Just starting to get things cleaned up last year, no tractor but we do have some commercial grade lawn care equipment.

Sprayer - Planning on using the hand pump sprayer, one for round-up, one for fungi/pesticides. 50 vines shouldn't be impossible to cover by hand. I was hoping to stay organic, but I may wind up using some Sevin if the bugs get bad. In future years I'll be stitching bird netting I suppose.

Fertilizing - Mulch/compost? From what I've read don't overfertilize?

Watering - Already have hosing/sprinklers to get to the garden location, was planning on running some soaker hoses along the base of the vines. I've used a timer on the garden, planning on the same for the vines.

Time - Is there ever enough? We make time for the things we want to do, and I have an understanding Mrs.


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## vinividivici (Jan 12, 2012)

Lizard,

Did you order 1x Marquette vines? That's what I planted last spring and have had great results.

I used the blue growth tubes and like others have said, they protect the vines from small critters and also the wind. When watering, I put the hose directly into the tube until it ran out the bottom and sides. They really help keep the water around the plant vs. areas not needed.

Good luck with them! Double A is excellent and I'll be ordering some Frontenac and maybe some Cornell experimentals for this spring.

Check out my thread "Anyone Growing Marquette Grapes". A load of good info there from the experts!

Cheers!
Bob


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## saddlebronze (Jan 12, 2012)

On the pH, you want to make sure it is acidic enough for grapes. When I sent my sample to the university they measured the pH and other stuff and inlcuded a sheet on how much stuff to add to get the Nitrogen, Phosporous and Potassium into the right range. You don't have to know anything, just get what is missing at the local garden center, spread it at the rates they say and mix it in. You might already have enough of each, but it is nice to know.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2012)

Lizerdking said:


> PH - I can get it tested, but what am I looking for? And If it's not what i want, what can be done to change it? I've never gotten too complex with gardening, and have always had success.
> 
> success is generally easy..and anyone who wants to can...things want to grow and most soils are obliging...you need to do some quick searches for what grapes like...ie they dont like a ph of 3.4, that is for blueberries.....they also dont like ph of 11.0....it isnt complex here either but if you do a little research on the basics you will essentially be home free
> 
> ...





and hope she likes wine~!


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## SLOweather (Feb 1, 2012)

Lizerdking said:


> I haven't measured things out, but it's the top of a hill that it will be on. If i run out of room I may have to start running them down the slope (15 degree?). Never seen anyone plant on a hillside, any worries?



3 things:

1) Google Earth has a ruler feature that makes measuring land easy. Just allow extra if you are measuring a line on a slope. GE measures flat.

2) http://acme.com/planimeter makes measuring areas easy. It uses Google Maps. Again, allow for extra on a slope I used an on-line right triangle solver to measure my slope and figure out how much extra to allow for fencelines and acreage.

3) If it weren't for hillsides, California wouldn't produce as much wine as it does.


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## robie (Feb 1, 2012)

AlFulchino said:


> one other quick note....consider electric fence for fifty vines....it is cheaper...can be moved easily.....if you have deer then your traditional fence has to be 8-9 feet high i believe and that may be an eyesore....electric fence tape is the way i would go



Al, I have a friend who has a small vineyard and he finally realizes that the deer like his vines and grapes almost as much as he does.

An electric fence would sure be cheaper than a 8 feet-high chain link fence, but we know nothing about how to construct an electric fence to keep deer out. (I only know about cattle fences.) How high off the ground would the top wire have to be? How many individual wires from top to bottom? Standard cattle level voltage?

Would the deer just jump over it, if it also is not 8 to 10 feet high?

Thanks for your help.


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## robie (Feb 1, 2012)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> When planting give them 8' between plants and 10' between rows or wider if you have a large tractor.QUOTE]
> 
> I just read a book that when I think about it and your "8' between plants and 10' between rows", I have to wonder how the plants in France and some in Italy even survive. If you can believe it, according to this book, in many vineyards in Burgundy and Bordeaux France, and some places in Italy, they put 3300 vines per acre!!! Talk about stressing the vines!


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## AlFulchino (Feb 1, 2012)

Hi Robie, i wont pretend to be a deer expert, but this i witnessed for the last year...before installing my electric fence (2 wire w 5000 volts) in the back area i had deer, turkey and coyote every day......i put up the fence for baby bulls and it stopped day one....it continued this way as they got older...now maybe as they got older they intimidated the deer....the two wires were 18 and 36 inches high

however in the front of my place i installed an electric fence for the four baby bulls, these babys get places in a closed barn in the evening....i see no evidence of any deer or coyote even after a snowfall where prints are easy to see

deer fences in general are hideous to look at and while i would choose one vs lose a grape crop it would be far easier to get some cheap fiberglass stakes and run some fence tape that is easy to see vs wire and hook up a well endowed charger ( dont skimp on this part)....i would run at least two wires...3-4 if you feel the need

cost wise, this is far cheaper way to go...one other pro on this subject of electric fence.....when the crop is not hanging you can take it all down...esp when dormant

let me add something i also just learned about....there are grants to farmers to pay for most of your deer fence ...check w your state farm people....i know a lady who had the state of NH pay for close to all of her 8 ft high deer fence..looks just awful but what can you do


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## TxBrew (Mar 1, 2012)

I was always told to never use telephone poles and railroad ties for gardening as the Creosote in them leeches out for years and years.


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