# HARDY GRAPE TRAITS



## NorthernWinos (Aug 26, 2006)

Here is a list of grapes that I am trying [in a small way] and some I wish to try. 
This is a list of the facts I have read about these grapes...please add any more traits of these HARDY grapes.

BETA -very hardy -juice, small purple -very disease resistant

VALIANT-extremely hardy-juice and wine [age for 1-2 years] -not disease resistant

KING OF THE NORTH -very hardy -juice and wine -very vigorous plant growth

FRONTENAC -hardy -30*F-wine-pick late to reduce acid -late ripening, will over produce, needs heat to ripen

*SWENSON RED -moderately hardy -30*F-table grape and wine-susceptible to downy

*EDELWEISS-moderately hardy -30*F -white wine and a very sweet table grape-fairly disease resistant, brittle shoots, pick early

*ST. CROIX-moderately hardy-wine-roots less hardy, needs snow mulch, much vegetative growth, low fruit production

*ST. PEPIN -moderately hardy -25-30*F -white wine and juice -interplant for pollination, plant 2 plants per hole, late ripening

*LOUISE SWENSON-very hardy -40*F -white wine, blend with Prairie Star-good plant behavior, struggles in sand, sensitive to drought

*PRAIRIE STAR-very hardy -40*F-white wine, non foxy, good to blend and add body to finish thin wines-brittle shoots, disease resistant

MARECHAL FOCH-25*F-wine, versatile-needs heat to ripen

*SABREVOIS-moderately hardywine, high quality -mid season, vigorous, struggles to balance fruit to vegetation

LA CRESCENT-moderately hardy-white wine-susceptible to cold damage after warm spell, short dormancy, needs spray program

*ES 10-18-30-hardy-white wine, good body and mouth feel, oustanding-not disease resistant, needs spray, shoots grow upright----Grandparents--- Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon

* Indicates vines bred by Elmer Swenson, these may carry a patent, you may pay a royalty when you purchased them...watch out for the 'Plant Police' should you propagate any vines....

These are just my notes and would like to hear form others who have had experience with these vines and get your opinion.
*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman (Aug 26, 2006)

That's a pretty good list of cold hardy varieties. One question I have is why 2 St Pepin per hole? Mine came just fine like all the others. I just let two shoots grow for cold insurance. Also for pollination of the St. Pepin, a good choice is LaCrosse-a sibling of St. Pepin(guess you don't worry about incest with grapes).




It is hardy to about -30 degrees also medium size white grapes making a rich fruity white wine with a spicy aroma. My LaCrosse vines are slightly more vigorous than the St. Pepin.


I have high hopes for the Leon Millot vines I planted- they are moderately vigorous, widely grown in Quebec and make a Red wine with a distinct berry aroma. They are an early ripening black variety. They do have small berries with small clusters and may need thinning. They are used in France for adding color to other varieties.


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 26, 2006)

I understand that St.Pepin doesn't pollinate well...so it needs some other plant mixed in....judging by your photos you have your grapes planted pretty close together, so pollination might not be a problem. I have read in a couple places about planting 2 plants per hole because of poor pollination and low production...thought that was odd too....but others have learned and share their knowledge.
Where did you get your Leon Millot plants, those are said to be very good. I would like to come across some ES 10-18-30, suppose to make outstanding wine, but haven't seen the vines for sale in my books....should go through some of the other catalogs again.
I am anxious to see how the Baltic Amber does, despite it's Magnesium problem...it was a tissue culture last spring, like 3 leaves on a little sprig, I saw a few grapes hiding on it today down at the bottom, they were very sweet already.
The Edelweiss is so tasty, try a plant or two for table grapes, they are awesome..
Such fun to play with some new plants and try to grow plants that struggle in our area...we are Zone 3, so not the best area for grapes...but worth a try.
One of our Senators started a vineyard and winery near here, I want to go there and check it out, last fall their vines were pretty small, will be interesting to see how they have come along.
How are your apples ripening this year??? Some of ours are punky and others small but sweet and juicy, it was so dry just happy to get any produce this year...
Good luck in your ventures...


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## grapeman (Aug 27, 2006)

I assume when the sources say that St. Pepin needs to be planted near a Sibling variety for pollination, that they mean in a reasonable distance, say 10 to 20 feet(maybe more or less). Studies show that grape pollination is mainly by wind driven pollen, although bees will increase pollination somewhat. I think my vines planted 8 feet apart in rows 8 feet apart will be fine. I had a number of clusters form on the St. Pepin as well as the others planted this year and I had to remove them.






I got my Leon Millot vines from Double A Vineyards as cuttings, but they also have them as 1 yr stock. I also see them in the Miller Nurseries catalog. I got six of them from Miller's this year and they did very well. I got 50 cuttings and 44 of them rooted well. They seemed to root easier and earlier than any of the other varieties. 


Apples this year are somewhat a dissapointment. Since I'm not a commercial orchard I do minimal spraying. This year I would spray and the next day we would get an inch of rain and wash most of it off. The Mac's are all scabby, some varieties are marred from hail damage and insect damage. I'm glad I don't rely on those apples for a livng.






I have been watching Thanksgiving dinner on the foot the last couple days in the vineyard. This morning I went out at about 7 AM and one big Tom walked through my garden and checked out the small vine nursery. It was tough resisting the primal urges.........


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 27, 2006)

WOW!!! A wild turkey could do some serious damage to your grapes...isn't there a season for those that comes with your land deed!!!!




Your apples sure got a beating didn't they, some of our trees didn't produce real well this year, late frost, then it is the 'on' year for a couple very hardy bi-annual producers, those are pretty loaded. I just can't thin them in the spring...so one tree's branches are just hanging, had high winds the other night, had my honey park the horse trailer to protect those 2 trees, they were spared.
Here is a link from the Minnesota Grape Growers...they do a lot of research on the varieties that are bred here and in Wisconcin...You'll notice what they say about ST. PEPIN...guess it only has female flowers...pistallite...think it looks like a worthy variety non the less. This with your other rows so nearby, you should do fine. If you find in the future to have low production, then maybe plant something else between each vine. Interesting reading on that Site, only for us who struggle with the cold, tho I think your temps are warmer and more hospitable in winter...our summers are hot.
Will lok for more info for you about these Minnesota grapes.....





http://www.mngrapes.org/varieties.html*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 27, 2006)

Another Site...just a supplier, he mentions what grapes will pollinate St.Pepin...

http://www.bunchgrapes.com/varieties.html*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 27, 2006)

Here is some grape info from University of MN, some interesting info on just a very few hardy grapes...

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/horticulture/DG1103.html


This is a little info on various fruits from Wisconsin, not much info on grapes, but still worthy..


http://s142412519.onlinehome.us/uw/pdfs/A2488.pdf


Here is a little booklet that you can print out...

http://s142412519.onlinehome.us/uw/pdfs/A1656.PDF

Hope you find these helpful


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 27, 2006)

More grape info...lots to read at this Site....you can print out the whole book and it will keep you busy till spring...

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/resources/winegrape/ 

Here is a vineyard in Colorado that has done much research on short season, winter hardy grapes...they have some publications you can download...

http://www.ristcanyonvineyards.com/

It's all good reading, I have printed up much info and then go through it and get confused about certain varieties I want to try...I guess just try them yourself and see how they do....


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 28, 2006)

Hi NW and Richard
Another somewhat hardy variety that I have planted is Landot Noir. Here's its description from the grower where I got it.

"(LANDOT 4511) Red Wine. Hardy to about -20 F. Its late bud break and early maturity make it a great choice for short season sites. Disease resistance is moderate with fair resistance to downy mildew. Wines from the Hudson Valley in NY and from NH have received outstanding ratings in various wine competitions. Nice ability to age."

I can see why planting 2 St. Pepin together could work. All of mine show minimal vegetative growth, and I can see training both up the same pole, then going horizontal in opposite directions. Maybe the first years growth is deceptive, though. Here is what my grower says about it.

"White wine. A sister seedling of LaCrosse but hardier, to around -26 F. This variety is pistallite, meaning that it has only female flowers and must be planted near other varieites to ensure proper fruit set. It should be pruned to a high bud count to make sure there is adequate fruit production. Small berries are formed on medium loose clusters. Ripens mid season to about 20 brix and 1.0% total acidity. One row of St. Pepin next to one row of another variety will do well. Excellent wines have been made from St. Pepin as a varietal and also blended with LaCrosse. When well ripened, fruit quality is similar to Reisling. Selected by Elmer Swenson."

Pruned to a high bud count, hmmm. Maybe training to both a mid wire and high wire would be needed. I'm still trying to determine what the best training methods would be for my varieties. I was looking more closely at them all yesterday to see how they grow naturally, i.e., how they WANT to grow. Those that grew so much that I directed their top growth laterally on the wires seem to put out laterals that want to keep growing up rather than drooping. I will try to train these in a VSP from the mid wire. The St. Pepin and Landot Noir don't have enough long lateral or top growth to have needed laying down on the wires for protection, and hence haven't yet shown how they want to grow when run horizontally. I have a feeling these will be trained on the top wire and let hang down. It's all a grand experiment at this point! If you have suggestions, let me know.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 28, 2006)

NW - You have grown your grapes for a few years now and some are mature. Do you have any idea how many pounds of fruit you average per vine? Without the benefit of actual experience, I am assuming now that I will need 13-15 pounds to yield a gallon of wine, based upon things I've read.


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 28, 2006)

I have never weighed my graps...have one real loaded 5 year old vine that will be ripe in a week or so [or I'll have time in a week or so] will weight them up and get back to you.
I had read somewhere, [can't find it] that it would be good to plant another pollinator vine the same hole as the St.Pepin, but if you have another row of vines nearby it should pollinate yours okay.....so you'll be okay, or you'll know in a few years.
I have planted 2 varieties that have brittle upright shoots, have read they benefit from drop wires from the top lateral wire hanging down to the bottom one. One variety is a tender vine [Edelweiss-tender for us] so it grows on panels that get laid down in the winter. The other is Prairie Star, hardy to -40*F, suppose to be brittle too, will grow it on a panel tied to the lateral wires and leave them up for the winter.
They tell us here, "bury the tender, let the tough hang"


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## grapeman (Aug 28, 2006)

Bill,
I don't know if you have seen this chart or not, but it has vine characteristics for type of pruning, growth habit etc. It might help you decide what type of training to do. Here in NY the majority of training is 4-arm kniffen, but does depend on varieties somewhat.
Heres the link to the pdf.
http://www.doubleavineyards.com/pdf_files/Double_A_Vineyards_vine_char_05-06.pdf


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 28, 2006)

Here is another Site that I probably got from one of your guys, or someplace on this Forum, had bookmarked this one and found it most interesting...

http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/prunecanopy.pdf#search=%22pruning%20grape%20management%22

Will also bookmark your Site and come next spring will get the vines in better shape than their neglected state of this season...
I want to thank everyone who shares their Web Links, they sure are informative...


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## grapeman (Aug 28, 2006)

NW,
You are correct about the Turkeys. I had a single bunch of Leon Millot ripening that I've had my eye on- hidden from view by some leaves. I went out this evening to check it's progress. Alas- where did it go? Turkey tracks leading over to the vine and one single grape left.



I guess it has the proper seasoning to it now. Let's see it show it's head again and see what happens........ The venison is working on proper taste enhancement with the apples. I have about 10 different deer feeding there right now. I'm not too upset about that- the apples are plentiful this year but not very nice with lots of scab.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 28, 2006)

Richard - Yes, I have that web site bookmarked. It is what I took some early notes from. I appreciate the note at the bottom of the chart which says "Training system and distance between vines is dependent on site and vine vigor. This information is meant only as a guideline." I am endeavoring to determine just what the growth habits are of each of my varieties and prune and train next spring accordingly.

And I also have the Iowa State site that NW mentions bookmarked. I remember posting it to this forum back when some of us were deciding to use grow tubes or not. I was impressed by the experimentation showing the amount of root growth of the unpruned, untubed vines. I think the Iowa State site puts it well, stating that we have to determine the growth habit of our vines, either drooping (top wire trained, Kniffen system) or upright (VSP), and for the super vigorous varieties, a double Geneva system or similar. I'm afraid my trellises aren't set up for that, so for my most vigorous variety, Frontenac, I hope I'll manage the growth with the VSP system.

I know that turkeys can be a major problem. They can fly over fencing and strong enough to go through bird netting. If you "harvest" one or two, there are plenty more where they came from. I don't know at this point what I will do when I have a grape crop. Maybe I'll check with my extension agent sometime. Good luck chasing them away!


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 30, 2006)

The seasons are starting to change, the days are noticeably shorter, the sun setting and rising further south each day, the shadows are gttting longer and the sun shines through the windows now as it sinks in the southern horizon for the fall season. Last night the temps dropped to 49*F...the trees are showing stress related color changes from the severe drought....Our first frost is usually a month away, but the year has been full of surprises.


Went out and looked at the grapes today...The Swenson Reds has stated véraison...with only 4 weeks of slow growing left in this season, wonder if they will turn red and ripen...perhaps not the grape for this area...? Time will tell...







The potted vines I bought on clearance last fall are growing nicely, especially the Frontenac...It had a long vine which I buried and will get another plant there next spring, as well made 5 cuttings over last winter under lights....

Frontenac:






And Kay Gray...both were also potted plants and both set on a few clusters this year...much to my surprise...






The Baltic Ambers are slow, struggling with their iron deficency...but they were only 3 leaved tissue culture late last spring...this one set on 3 tiny clusters of the most unusual tasting grapes, kind of spicy.






The Louise Swenson were also tissue culture and was just glad the wintered over and reached the bottom wire this summer...






Most impressed with the size of the clusters on the King of the North...it is said to produce 5 times the vegetation, I believe that..






Next spring I plan to remove the straw mulch from around the young plants and finally remove the strawberries that are growing between the rows of grapes...actually anxious for next spring already....

Cleaning, weighting and juicing the Beta grapes today...willpost the weight later....

signed 'purple fingers'



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## NorthernWinos (Aug 30, 2006)

Harvested the very hardy Beta grapes today...I wasn't able to prune the vines this spring, this vine was 10 feet long, it had grown all the way over to the next post...






They were so ripe that they were falling of the clusters as I picked them...






I got 25.5 pounds of cleaned grapes off that one vine...guess that's pretty good...but it probably over produced this year and might suffer for it...?






I will probably get 15 quarts of breakfast juice, or maybe wine making juice...

The other old Beta vine suffered from iron deficiency last year and didn't ripen at the same time as it's mate....the grapes are turning color since I trimmed off the leaves, so it should be ready in a few weeks...kind of odd they acted so different this year.






The plant had much foliage this year, possibly from the iron I fed it last year....It didn't grow as long vines as the other either....Next year I will set out more of this variety from the cuttings I made last winter...it is very hardy and disease resisitant...

Fun to watch the different varieties mature and survive the brutal winters, then come forth with some fruit...



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman (Aug 30, 2006)

I can almost taste those grapes. They look so delicious.



You're doing good things out there in such a harsh environment!


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## Waldo (Aug 31, 2006)

Boy I believe I would just have to try at least one gallon of wine from those grapes just using the natural yeast. 
Looking good there wino



*Edited by: Waldo *


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## bilbo-in-maine (Aug 31, 2006)

NW - I like your description of the early seasonal changes - thanks. Things are similar here, down to 45 degrees this morning, will be in the mid-70's this afternoon - that's quite a daily range. I always notice the lowering sun angle with a little melancholy, but also find that I look forward to the strengthening autumn cooldown. For some reason each year I look forward to firewood work and the processes of hunkering down for dead of winter later on. This always starts about now, when the days are already noticeably short and the mornings cool. I'm on the lookout for a log splitter this year, after years of splitting 5 cords per year by hand. Just shy of age 60, I would appreciate the increased mechanical advantage.

So, 25 pounds of grapes will yield maybe 4 gallons of juice? If you decide to ferment for wine rather than make table juice, I would like to know how much wine you get in the end. 25 pounds off one vine is enormous, of course you noted that you hadn't pruned it. And as you say, it may have overcropped this year and may suffer some this winter. All good research, so keep posting!

Bill


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## Markybones (Dec 3, 2022)

NorthernWinos said:


> Here is a list of grapes that I am trying [in a small way] and some I wish to try.
> This is a list of the facts I have read about these grapes...please add any more traits of these HARDY grapes.
> 
> BETA -very hardy -juice, small purple -very disease resistant
> ...


I have been wanting to trial ES 10-18-30 here in Michigan mini-vineyard, but I haven't been able to find a seller. Any suggestions?


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## vinny (Dec 3, 2022)

I had pretty well given up on the prospects of growing grapes in Alberta. This might cause me to create a lot more work for myself.


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## wood1954 (Dec 12, 2022)

vinny said:


> I had pretty well given up on the prospects of growing grapes in Alberta. This might cause me to create a lot more work for myself.


How cold does it get where you live?


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## wood1954 (Dec 12, 2022)

bilbo-in-maine said:


> NW - I like your description of the early seasonal changes - thanks. Things are similar here, down to 45 degrees this morning, will be in the mid-70's this afternoon - that's quite a daily range. I always notice the lowering sun angle with a little melancholy, but also find that I look forward to the strengthening autumn cooldown. For some reason each year I look forward to firewood work and the processes of hunkering down for dead of winter later on. This always starts about now, when the days are already noticeably short and the mornings cool. I'm on the lookout for a log splitter this year, after years of splitting 5 cords per year by hand. Just shy of age 60, I would appreciate the increased mechanical advantage.
> 
> So, 25 pounds of grapes will yield maybe 4 gallons of juice? If you decide to ferment for wine rather than make table juice, I would like to know how much wine you get in the end. 25 pounds off one vine is enormous, of course you noted that you hadn't pruned it. And as you say, it may have overcropped this year and may suffer some this winter. All good research, so keep posting!
> 
> Bill


I agree I look forward to firewood chores and shorter colder days. I bought a splitter and it really helps for those crotches and logs with knots, but nothing beats hand splitting nice straight oak.


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## vinny (Dec 12, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> How cold does it get where you live?


We get -40 bursts, but sustained is usually -20's and warmer


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## Ohio Bob (Dec 12, 2022)

vinny said:


> I had pretty well given up on the prospects of growing grapes in Alberta. This might cause me to create a lot more work for myself.


You don’t seem like the kind to shy away from a challenge. Have you considered a mini greenhouse, or those half-circle tunnels? Might buy you a couple of growing zones?


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## wood1954 (Dec 12, 2022)

Marquette grapes might survive and they make good wine once you tame the acid. Why do you live where it’s so cold?


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## vinny (Dec 12, 2022)

wood1954 said:


> Why do you live where it’s so cold?


mmmm, mostly self loathing. I was really doing well in BC, but I couldn't help but think I don't deserve this. I am much better suited for Alberta.



Actually, I was born in Vancouver, and it is pretty cut throat there. Not to mention cost of living. I couldn't find a real direction because most industries were undercutting themselves. They call AB little Texas. I moved here for new experiences and built a home based business within a couple of years. I'm on 160 acres, 42 years old, 12 years into the land and business, 75% through the build, and 90% retired.

I have plans for warmer pastures, but Alberta is my home.


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