# Vintners Best Elderberry fruit wine base



## winemaker81 (Jul 20, 2018)

I purchased a gallon jug of Vintners Best Elderberry fruit wine base the other day. It was an impulse buy -- i had been thinking about elderberry wine but don't have a source for berries, I was considering using dried berries, but that isn't quite what I want. Then I saw the display in my local supply store ...

Does anyone have experience with this product line? I didn't read the ingredient list before buying (yes, this was an impulse buy!) so I didn't catch that the it's got more apple juice than elderberry. Regardless, it should be an interesting experiment.

I'll be starting the wine some time next week, and will post my recipe and status as I go.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 21, 2018)

Keep us posted on the progress with it. I've looked at their ingredient list before and it is sad that they do that (Go so heavy on Apple Juice). They aren't really any cheaper either than the 100% stuff. Since Apple Juice is listed first there's a pretty good chance that you got 50% or more Apple Juice & Pear Juice because those two are listed before Elderberry juice. AND it also has corn syrup as well. 

Again good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 21, 2018)

Even if the base is not exactly what I want, this should prove to be an interesting experiment.

The bottle directions state to dilute the contents to 5 gallons volume. That won't be enough to fill a carboy, so I purchased a bag of red grape concentrate to extend it. That package says to dilute with 2 to 3 quarts of water -- I'll probably go with 2 and see how the result measures up.

I haven't made elderberry wine since '87 and have thought about it for years. I used to live in central NY and my parents had a bunch of bushes growing on the edge of a field -- that property is long since sold. I currently live in NC and don't have access to fresh elderberries, so this is at least a step in the right direction.

I _may_ take this batch in 2 directions at once. *1.* Fill a 3.5 gallon carboy and make a table wine with it, either bone dry or off-dry (depending on how dry tastes). *2.* Add a high potency yeast to the remainder and feed it sugar until I max out the alcohol potential, then sweeten to make a dessert wine.

Many moons ago I owned a wine & beer supply shop, and had a customer who made "cranberry cordial" every fall, using the method described above in #2. I've thought about doing that, but haven't -- yet. Cranberry wine may be a fall project ....


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## Cibb (Jul 21, 2018)

If you like a tart higher acidity wine go with less water than recommended. If you like a smoother finish wine go with the full amount of water.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 24, 2018)

Cibb said:


> If you like a tart higher acidity wine go with less water than recommended. If you like a smoother finish wine go with the full amount of water.


I generally worry more about high acid than low. Adding acid is easier than removing it. In Upstate NY, cold stabilization was simple -- put the wine on the porch for a week and rack while cold. In NC? Not so easy ...

I'm more concerned, in this case, with having enough liquid to fill the carboy.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 24, 2018)

*Elderberry Wine*

1 gallon Vintner's Best Elderberry fruit wine base
1 liter Global Vintners Inc red grape concentrate
Bentonite
5 tsp yeast nutrient
2 tsp grape tannin
40 drops liquid pectic enzyme
1/2 lb toasted oak chips
Red Star Premier Rouge yeast

Following diections on the jug, I diluted the elderberry concentrate with 4 gallons water. For the first couple of quarts I used hot tap water to rinse the bottle -- no point in wasting the goodness! The bottle said the SG should be 1.077. I got 1.076, but possible differences in dilution and temperature make this spot on. I was satisfied the label was correct.

*Note:* The first ingredient on the label is corn syrup, the second is apple juice, the last is elderberry. The must smells good .... but the next time I do this, I'm going to look for a pure elderberry. It may make no difference, but the purist in me wants 100% elderberry.

Next added the red grape concentrate. The label said the brix would be 20-22, and I should dilute with 2.8 to 3.2 liters water. I used 2 liters warm tap water, which i used to rinse the bag. Again, no point in wasting the goodness! This brought the SG up to 1.078. I considered chapitalizing it up to 1.085 .... but decided to go with what I have.

I went with 2 liters instead of 3 as I'm looking for body and the 3/4 gallon extended the batch sufficiently that it will fill my carboy.

Added bentonite, yeast nutrient, grape tannin (just because), and pectic enzyme. I always add pectic enzyme to fruit wines. I've had to do it enough times when trying to clear the wine that it's simply become a preventative habit. My local shop was out of powder, so I tried the liquid. It's more expensive ($3 vs. $2) but the amount I used was tiny -- this bottle will go bad before I use it up.

The oak chips were on hand and I decided to add it to see what it would do. Sprinkled the yeast on top.

Couple of tips:

1. I purchased a drill-mounted stirring rod some years back. Greatest wine (or beer) making toy ever invented. If this one breaks I'll certainly buy another!

2. I have a wine thief that can hold a hydrometer. This is the second greatest invention as I can check the SG in a carboy.

EDIT: Forgot to mention bentonite.


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## pgentile (Jul 24, 2018)

winemaker81 said:


> *Elderberry Wine*
> 
> *Note:* The first ingredient on the label is corn syrup, the second is apple juice, the last is elderberry. The must smells good .... but the next time I do this, I'm going to look for a pure elderberry. It may make no difference, but the purist in me wants 100% elderberry.



There are a few sources out there, but the one I made in January I used 64oz of pure elderberry concentrate from homewinery.com plus several lbs of dried elderberries. Hoping to do another batch this summer with concentrate and fresh elderberries instead of dried. Wine at six months is very good.

Your recipe looks good. Very interested how this turns out.

Now I need to find a thief that fits a hydrometer


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## winemaker81 (Jul 25, 2018)

One of my local shops (American Brewmaster, Raleigh NC) sells the Fermtech line of products. This is the wine thief:

http://www.fermtech.ca/index.php/sampler/the-thief

I'm going to consider the homewinery.com elderberry concentrate for next year.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 25, 2018)

Wine Making Tip:

I received this tip from a man I consider the best amateur winemaker I have met. I lost contact with him in the late 80's ... sorry I did so.

Each time the must is stirred in the primary fermenter, wet a clean paper towel liberally with Kmeta water. Carefully wipe the inside of the fermenter down to the level of the must/juice, cleaning up any residue. This eliminates a place where undesireable things can grown. I suspect it also release sulfite into the air inside the primary, which may reduce any airborne contaminents.


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## mainshipfred (Jul 25, 2018)

winemaker81 said:


> One of my local shops (American Brewmaster, Raleigh NC) sells the Fermtech line of products. This is the wine thief:
> 
> http://www.fermtech.ca/index.php/sampler/the-thief
> 
> That is really slick. It might be especially useful trying to test must.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 25, 2018)

The thief works well for punching through a cap to get clear liquid to test. Sometimes the hydrometer wants to stick to a side, so I have to jiggle it free. I typically hold the thief in two fingers and let it swing free, so it hangs straight down.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 26, 2018)

I checked the wine this morning -- it's fermenting merrily! So merrily that it tried to overflow the container -- I'm using a 7 gallon primary with the lid on but no airlock. I'm in NC, and in the summer insects are a real problem. Typically I'd cover the primary loosely with plastic wrap.




In this case the lid saved me from a mess -- just a bit came out the airlock hole, easly to clean up. I rinsed the lid with water and then kmeta. Wiped down the inside of the fermenter, then wiped it with more kmeta. SG was down to 1.050. I don't normally check this early, but given how vigorous it was fermenting, I got curious.

BTW: The wine thief started leaking, it wasn't holding the wine. I turned it over and ran hot water into it from the bottom -- I got a tiny chip of oak out. I'll be using that as part of my cleaning procedure each time I use equipment.

EDIT: I'm messing around with attaching a photo. Embedding the URL from DropBox didn't work, can't figure out how to get rid of the graphic at the bottom.

Uploading the photo and displaying the thumbnail works, and is not obtrusive. Click the photo to see the larger version.


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## pgentile (Jul 26, 2018)

winemaker81 said:


> I checked the wine this morning -- it's fermenting merrily! So merrily that it tried to overflow the container -- I'm using a 7 gallon primary with the lid on but no airlock. I'm in NC, and in the summer insects are a real problem. Typically I'd cover the primary loosely with plastic wrap.




Sounds like your elderberry is off to a good start. Most here put a towel over the primary. Allows gas to escape, some oxygen in for AF and keeps the fruit flies out.


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## ejr (Jul 26, 2018)

I have made many gallons of this I just follow directions then backsweeten with a couple pd of sugar to 1015-1020 then give it a month or 2 to age you can drink it right away but its better with a little time i like a sweet wine. You can not taste alot of the elderberry in it but it is still good, but not like wine made from real elderberries.


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## garymc (Jul 27, 2018)

Vintners Harvest makes a pure elderberry concentrate. Last I checked it was more expensive than the Vintners Best.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 27, 2018)

I've had close call as well with foam over-flow. using ba cloth cover tied down helps since the foam breaks down when pressed against the cloth. Of course it stains the cover but that also let me know what happened without the spill.


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## kyle5434 (Jul 27, 2018)

A few months ago I used the Vintner's Harvest concentrate... 1.5 of the big cans each (along with a cup of dried elderberries) in two different 3-gallon batches, one with 71B yeast and one with RC212 as an experiment to see which I preferred in advance of this year's harvest from the bushes in my back yard.

Speaking of which, just did the first decent harvest today...













Elderberries



__ kyle5434
__ Jul 27, 2018


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## Stressbaby (Jul 28, 2018)

Too bad you don't live in Missouri, the elderberries are going crazy this year. I expect to have all I want just with the plants along my driveway! Picked the first 2# a couple of days ago, and I expect I'll get another 4# today.

Will be following this thread (even though I make mine directly from fruit). Last year made an elderberry port by step feeding sugar back up to 1.030 twice; it quit fermenting at 1.014, ABV 16%, RS 3.6%. I fortified with everclear to 19% ABV and this port is delicious.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 31, 2018)

Stress That sounds like a wickedly good one.


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## winemaker81 (Jul 31, 2018)

The elderberry has been perking along, but not quite as rapidly as I expected. Checked the SG today and it's 1.020. Another couple of days and I'll move it into a carboy.

This batch has a lot of glop on the surface, which appears distinctive to elderberry (see the photo). I haven't made elderberry wine since 1988 ... so my memory is hazy, other than scraping green goo off the primary. I assume the glop is related that.




Since I have NO interest is scraping that out of my racking tube or a carboy, I used a slotted spoon and removed it, along with the toasted oak I added.

This batch smells really good!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 31, 2018)

Agree with glop removal. I have a long small brush but hate that job plus it scratches the tubing inside making everything look cloudy/hazy as it passes through. How long do you plan to age it?


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## winemaker81 (Aug 1, 2018)

The first glass will age about 15 seconds (I always sample when bottling). 

I'll likely pop a cork at 6 months to see how the elderberry is doing. I'm expecting a year before it's really good. This concentrate has elderberry as the last ingredient in the list, so I'm not sure what to expect.

Sometimes things surprise us. A bit OT, but I make limoncello -- steep lemon zest in vodka for 3-6 months, strain, and sweeten to taste with sugar syrup. About 3 years ago I tried using lime zest. It worked, but I considered the experiment a failure -- it smelled good, but was tasteless, especially alongside the lemon version.

Last weekend I opened one of 2 remaining bottles. Figured "what the heck?". Wow, it was good. The flavors matured and it was really good. Guess it just needed time ... but now I only have one bottle left .....


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## garymc (Aug 1, 2018)

Green goo is attracted to latex like a magnet. I put on latex exam gloves, the kind you get a hundred pairs in a box, wash any powder off, then slosh my gloved hands in the must. The gloves will be covered with the goo. I just peel them off and toss.


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## Stressbaby (Aug 2, 2018)

How much "glop" are we talking about here?
I make elderberry at 5#/gallon and I made 7 gallons last year. I had a little glop in the primary bucket but nothing a little vegetable oil didn't cut easily. Maybe a trace in the first carboy but nothing that didn't rinse out.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 4, 2018)

The first glop removal seemed like an inch, but it was full of CO2 and had 1# toasted oak chips mixed in, which inflated the amount. The second instance of glop removal was thin.

I racked the wine into a carboy Thursday night (08/02). SG was 1.010. Fermentation has been steady -- the glop made it appear more vigorous than it actually is. But steady is great!

I'll probably let it set for about 3 weeks then rack again, and probably bottle 3-6 weeks after that if all is clear.

At this point I have no idea how I'll finish it. At bottling time I will taste -- if it's good as is, I'll leave it dry. if not, I'll sweeten very lightly. IIRC, elderberry does well as a dry or off-dry wine.

I'm thinking about moving the wine to a 3.5 gallon carboy at the next racking, and put the remainder in another 3.5 and start feeding it sugar. Once it reaches its end, add champagne yeast and keep doing it. The idea is to make a port-style, sweetened to 3-5% residual sugar.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 4, 2018)

Think.you would be better off to rack as soon as the SG is below .999 and holds steady for three days. Leaving dead yeast in the batch for that long can create off flavors and smells. Once fermentation is done, rack off the gross Lee's (even when using a no-pulp juice) & give it a dose of K-meta. Then you can let it set for as long as you want.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 11, 2018)

The SG is holding steading at 1.000. I admit I'm surprised, I thought it would drop to 0.996-0.998, but it's holding steady. I have a sauvignon blanc kit to bottle today, so I'll have a 5 gallon carboy free. I am going to rack it and fill a 3.5 gallon carboy and let that baby set for a few weeks before bottling. Even if I decide to not sweeten it I'm going to add sorbate. The SG is probably normal for this concentrate ... but experience has taught me to be cautious about renewed fermentation in the bottle.

The remainder will go into the 5 gallon carboy and get its first dose of sugar -- as previously stated, I'm going to feed it until I overwhelm the yeast, then I'll add a champagne yeast and keep going until it, too, is overwhelmed.

Regarding wine setting on the lees for a few weeks, my experience is that limited exposure doesn't damage the wine. Scooter got me thinking, so I read the directions for the kits I have in production (sauvignon blanc, merlot, and Black Forest port) and the instructions call for up to 4 weeks setting on the lees. The white is less time (1 week), the reds more.

That said, I have left a wine the lees too long -- left one for 3 months when I got too busy with other things. It came out "ok" but had an odd aftertaste that I was not eager to reproduce.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 11, 2018)

Yes, with some reds the skins are left in extract more color and tannin, with whites normally such exposure is not desired. There is also a difference in the desired fermentation temperatures too. 

That one thing about wine making the requires a little research before diving in. Even using the same exact grapes or fruit you can find different recommended approaches to achieve different wine qualities. As you mentioned though, exposure to dead yeast cells is rarely a good thing.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 11, 2018)

I racked the elderberry, filling a 3.5 gallon carboy (added 1/4 tsp Ksulfite). I'm going to let this one set for a month or so.

It tastes quite good for a green wine. I suspect I'm not going to sweeten the main batch at all.

The remainder, ~2.25 gallons, went into a 5 galllon carboy. I added 3 cups sugar, 1 cup at a time and stirring for 1 minute with a powered stirring rod after each addition. This brought the SG up to 1.030. I'll check the SG next weekend, and feed it again. I haven't done the math yet to see what my current alcohol yield should be.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 11, 2018)

Scooter, you spurred a memory. Very early in my career someone I knew bought pinot noir from the Finger Lakes, NY. He fermented half a 72 F, the other half at 85 F (used a heat lamp, I think). The two wines could not be more different. The cooler fermented one was a lot more floral and ligher in color. The hotter one was MUCH darker (got a lot more color extraction) and had a heavier flavor. 

In recent years I've waited until mid-winter to start kits, fermenting them at ~55 F. It takes longer to get them going and the fermentation usually takes 2 weeks, instead of the typical 4-7 days.

I need to buy 2 identical kits -- start one in September and one in December to see what the real differences are.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 12, 2018)

*"In recent years I've waited until mid-winter to start kits, fermenting them at ~55 F. It takes longer to get them going and the fermentation usually takes 2 weeks, instead of the typical 4-7 days."*

Exactly, if you don't have a dedicate room with it's own HVAC then you learn to use the weather to help you. 

For me I even prefer to bottle in the summer/warmer times. While it's highly unlikely I like to bottle the wine at it's warmest aging temps to avoid any remote chance of pressure build up. I know it's silly but... if you leave some things to chance then "Chance's" name turns to Murphy and we all know Murphy can bite when and where least expected.


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## kyle5434 (Aug 16, 2018)

This evening I sampled some of the Vintner's Harvest based batches that went into bulk aging in early March and were bottled in early June. I did a 3-gallon batch with 71B, and another with RC212, to see which (if either) I preferred before making wine with this year's backyard elderberry harvest (~22 lbs. so far, destemmed, given a citric acid soak to minimize any potentially troublesome bacteria, and stored in the freezer).

The clear winner, for me at this stage anyway, is the RC212. It has a much more refined and rich flavor profile. The 71B has a noticeable amount of "twang" to it. Granted, that could diminish over time. But I'm definitely going with RC212 for this year's elderberry harvest when I make the wine later in the fall.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 18, 2018)

Kyle5434, it will be interesting to see the changes over time. Things surprise us!

The elderberry that I'm feeding to become a port-style hasn't done much. I chapatalized it up to 1.030 (from 1.000) and in 5 days time it was fermenting, but at a glacial pace -- SG dropped to 1.027. So I stopped at my local supply store Thursday to get another yeast, figured it wouldn't hurt.

The owner asked me if I had added yeast nutrient.

DUH!
Went home, added 1 tsp each of nutrient and energizer. Checked the SG today and it's down to 1.020. That was what it needed! I'm honestly surprised that I didn't think of it myself. 

On an other note, bottled a chocolate peanut butter porter and a sauvignon blanc today. If the weather holds I'm starting an Imperial ale tomorrow, and possibly a metheglin.

I HAVE to! I have 2 carboys that are empty!


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## kyle5434 (Aug 18, 2018)

I probably should have stated that I'm going for a dry end product (not a fan of sweet wines), so that's also playing into my taste analysis. If I were planning to back-sweeten, my preferred flavor profile from the yeast might very well be different.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 18, 2018)

Some fruit wines are better with a bit of sweetening -- apple being one. My "basic" elderberry is probably going to be dry. I like the flavor so far. It's in the 3.5 gallon and I'll let it set a month or two before bottling.

The other half that I'm feeding? That will be a port style wine, definitely sweet. My original thought was 3-5% ... but after tasting the main batch, I'm thinking 2% residual sugar.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 18, 2018)

kyle5434 said:


> I probably should have stated that I'm going for a dry end product (not a fan of sweet wines), so that's also playing into my taste analysis. If I were planning to back-sweeten, my preferred flavor profile from the yeast might very well be different.




Keep in mind that some fruit flavors just aren't strong enough until the wine is back-sweetened a little. It doesn't have to be made into a sweet wine or even off-dry, maybe not even to an SG of 1.000 to bring forth the fuller flavors of the fruit. Might be worth your time to test that on a sample. With the help of a friend or family member you could even do it as a blind test so you have two samples one with a very very small amount of sweetener added and the other without. See if you can detect any different.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 19, 2018)

Scooter68 said:


> Keep in mind that some fruit flavor just aren't strong enough until the wine is back-sweetened a little.


Good point


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## winemaker81 (Aug 23, 2018)

I checked the SG Monday evening -- the wine continues to ferment, but it's glacial. Yesterday I purchased a new package of EC-1118.

I received a couple of good suggestions from my local wine shop. One was to aerate the must -- it's fermenting in a carboy, and while I give it a good shake every day, that may be insufficient. So I poured the must into a sanitized primary, and when I poured it back into the carboy I ran it through a screen in the funnel. I've had an ongoing problem with bits of oak chips clogging my wine thief, so this should take care of that problem as well.

Any time I use oak I'm going to use the funnel/screen when racking it the first time.

Typically I make a yeast starter with water and sugar, but this time I used a few ounces of the must. Once the starter foamed up I added it back to the carboy.

Time will tell if these actions speed up the fermentation. SG is currently 1.020. I'm going to do the smart thing and ignore the wine for a week or so. Exactly like not watching a pot boil ....


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## Scooter68 (Aug 23, 2018)

In the future why not just use the larger chips that won't get stuck in that wine thief OR go to the spirals and use part of one.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 25, 2018)

When I buy more oak chips, I will look at what I'm buying. However, I have 2# of the same on my shelf, something I purchased a while back. Next time I'll put the chips in a hops bag to keep them corraled.

I also located the filter for my large funnel -- when racking back into a carboy, that takes out large chunks as well. If I had realized the chips were going to be a problem, I could have avoided it. Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

I started a metheglin Thursday -- put my spices (cinnamon stick, whole cloves, whole allspice -- all crushed gently) in a hops bag, which I manipulate during the daily stirring. So far nothing has escaped.


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## winemaker81 (Sep 30, 2018)

It's been over a month since feeding the elderberry with sugar ... SG finally dropped to 1.002. It's been like that a week or more, doesn't look like it's going down.

So I added another 3 cups of sugar, SG is up to 1.030. I'm going to ignore it for 3 weeks and then check SG. The yeast should easily ferment out to dryness, but this one is not doing anything like I expected. I suspect it has to do with this being a juice blend, and not just a fruit concentrate.

30+ years ago I did a few batches from Welch's frozen grape juice and one from Oceanspray Cranraspberry ... none of which fermented cleanly. I was fermenting commercial drinks, so normal reactions are not to be expected. This one seems to be in the same model.

The wine smells good and taste fine, and I expect both the regular and fortified wines will turn out acceptable. However, I don't believe I'll buy this product again.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 30, 2018)

Sorry to hear the wine is foot dragging on ya. Have you checked the pH on it? Normally there no point to that since it is affected by the co2 presence but... it might be interesting to see where it's at now - Just for grins. If it's high (Above 3.5) I might be a bit concerned but unless it's high or really really low (below 2.8) I wouldn't worry.


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## Stressbaby (Oct 1, 2018)

I did with my elderberry port last year basically what you're doing now. I started at 1.085, step fed to 1.030 twice, the first time at 1.004 and the second at something close to 1.000 (didn't write that number down). I used K1-V1116 which has an alcohol tolerance higher than your Red Star Premier Rouge. It stopped at 1.014, 3.6% RS. It's really good. 

All of which is just to say, don't assume it will ferment dry. My money says that it won't, but it will still be really good.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 1, 2018)

Scooter68, I haven't tested pH nor acid in YEARS. I've been doing kits (other than a few fruit wines) for many years so there's been no point. Funny, I found my acid test kit (stored where it didn't belong) just before reading your post. I stopped in at my local supply store today but they were out of pH test strips.

I'm taking this as a sign to not bother -- for now. I'm going to give it 3 weeks without checking it to see what happens. At that point, my shop will have more test strips in and if things have not progressed to my satisfaction, I'm taking your advice and checking.

Dave Bagley, owner of Poplar Ridge Winery in NY, told me the the most important thing a winemaker can do is to exercise "benign neglect". (this is paraphrased from nearly 30 years ago). He (more or less) said that nature does its thing -- man just guides and corrects, but it's best to leave it alone. I'm fighting my urge (and recent practice) to watch the wine. I'm going to let it do its thing. If nothing else, I may regain a bit of sanity. 

I'm moving my site to a new one, a CMS. While transferring my logs of the 80's, I am astounded how many times I touched some wines. My later practice (after talking to Dave) was to leave things along. The old racking schedule of "1 week, 3 weeks, 3 months" does work. I need to practice something like that with this wine.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 1, 2018)

Stressbaby, I'm not expecting the wine to ferment to dryness. The part I'm not feeding hasn't dropped below 1.000, and the "fed" part didn't either. You may be right -- this may be elderberry, not the product. So I'm not a taker for your bet. 

At this last feeding I did it without caring if it fermented dry. Once the fermentation stabilizes, I'll add sorbate + sulfite. If it's dry, I'm going to sweeten it anyway, so I'm in a no-lose situation.

I'd like it to ferment dry so I can fully control how much I sweeten .... but it's going to do what it does. Based upon the current tasting, I'm expecting it will produce an acceptable result, regardless of what the wine decides to do. Unless it goes bad, I'll be satisfied with the result.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 1, 2018)

I agree that hovering over a batch of wine can lead to meddling with the process and bad results.

My point is when things appear to be going awry, THEN it's appropriate to take measurements to determine what is going on. As to pH strips, used them once and got rid of them - I now use a digital pH meter. Fruit wines like Blackberry, Blueberry, Cherry etc are virtually impossible to measure with pH strip. 

I don't do kits or grape based wine ONLY Fruit and for the most part I try to use only fresh fruit with few exceptions for those fruits I cannot buy or pick fresh - Those are the only wine varieties I do.

As you mentioned - that particular vendors products are blends (That's reason I don't use their products) and they are concentrates that you have to dilute before using, so there's no way of knowing 100% the starting pH or TA without a measurement after you have diluted and added any sugar or other additives to the must. Personally I like to know where things sit before I start the process. I don't measure pH during the ferment unless there is an issue and fermentation stops, then I measure everything I can to find out why, rather than leave it to chance.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 13, 2018)

I checked SG ... absolutely NO activity. I suspect I overwhelmed the yeast with too much sugar -- I probably should have fed it, 1 cup sugar at a time.

I racked Batch #1 (the portion I'm doing per package directions) this morning, and dropped the sludge from that into the one I'm feeding (Batch #2). I don't know if it will help, but don't expect it will hurt.

At this point I'm going to try jump starting it again with another package of yeast. I appreciate suggestions on what yeast to try.

If I can't get the fermentation started I'm going to punt -- do the calculation for adding sufficient brandy to jack it to 18%. Call me stubborn, I'm going to get what I want, regardless of what it takes!


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## kyle5434 (Oct 13, 2018)

If you're going to back-sweeten, maybe 71B, to help bring out the fruitiness? Otherwise for dry I like RC212 with elderberry.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 13, 2018)

My intention was to ferment to dry, then sweeten to taste. However, at this point, if I can get it to ferment at all, I'm good.

I want to get the alcohol up so that it resembles a port, but as I said above, I have alternatives I can use. SG 1.032 is sweeter than I want ... but if it won't ferment, I will live with what I have.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 13, 2018)

Any chance of starting another batch with a difference juice source?

All this talk just pushed me over the edge and I just now ordered a Can of Vintner's Harvest Elderberry wine base. I'll make a 3 gallon batch to make sure I get full flavor.
I use Vintner's Harvest when I can't get the fruit locally and this brand also because it's 100% the type juice on the label. (Found on Amazon just now for $32.95 and free shipping)

Perhaps making a 3 gallon batch and fermenting it totally dry with a lower ABV would let you blend the two batchs to increase flavor, lower the ABV and reduce the sweetness.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 13, 2018)

Scooter68, excellent idea! This gives me yet another option.

Unfortunately, I don't want that much elderberry port -- have most of a 2016 Orange Chocolate Port, just bottled a Black Forest Port, and have a Coffee Port to start. Yes, I went a bit off the deep end on dessert wines!

However, if I can't get this one to unstick itself, I will probably do that, make small batch #3. I'll use as much of #3 as necessary to get the residual sugar down to what I want, then bottle the remainder of #3 as an off dry.

BTW: I tasted Batch #1 when I racked this morning -- I'm very pleased with the flavor and nose, even when green and dry. I'm going to sweeten this one just slightly, leaving it just off-dry.

Although I've spoken against this product, the main batch made according to directions is turning out fine. Just had a thought -- now I _want _to buy the Vintner's Harvest that Scooter mentioned, as I want to make that and compare it against my Batch #1. But I need to hold off -- I have two 3.5 gallon carboys, with elderberry in both. Once I move one out, I have the Coffee Port to start. So I need to wait until I bottle ...

Another BTW: I need a couple more gallon jugs. So I'm going to buy a gallon of California red and of white, and move that wine into screwcap 750 ml bottles. I use inexpensive wine for cooking and can always use basic white and red.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 13, 2018)

Buy more Carboys


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## winemaker81 (Oct 14, 2018)

At one point I had two 13 gallon, two 6 gallon, two 3.5 gallon, and fifteen five gallon carboys. I made FAR too much wine .... but when young and single, ya do what ya want. 

All jokes aside, five 5's and two 3.5's is right for my space. It also forces me to space things out, so I have something to do more often. Today I need to add chitosan to a batch ... then I won't touch anything until after Thanksgiving.

Well, nothing to do other than getting the Batch #2 unstuck, if that's possible.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 14, 2018)

Here's a hypothetical question - A neighbor thinks you are running a wine making business out of your home. Not being your "Friend" they contact "the local authorities" whomever that might be.

So the limit on wine making is 200 gallons a year by federal law and in most states ***
You have 150 gallons total bulk aging, 20 gallons in active fermentation, and 350 bottles finished, labeled and on the shelf.

What would the ATF folks do? Even with labels showing dating back 2-4 years will they go after someone.
Just a question about what authorities in the ATF realm would do. I guess the greatest danger would be state or local people on a power-trip and up-for an election soon would be the most likely to try to make a case.

_
No I don't know anyone with that much wine and certainly that's not me - I have about 94 bottles on the shelf dating back 2 years at most (Anything older has been consumed) and I have 12 gallons total aging. Sadly nothing fermenting at present.
_

*** Did find a couple of strange exceptions to the 200 gallon per household (Or 100gallon if only one person resides there) 
Alabama - Limit of 5 gallons in possession
Virginia - Can't give more than 72 ozs to anyone in a year


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## cmason1957 (Oct 14, 2018)

They will probably show up and ask you to prove that you haven't exceeded the 200 gallons per year. Never, ever do anything that looks in any way, shape or form like someone paid you for alcohol. Keep records of when you pitched yeast for each batch, how big each batch was.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 14, 2018)

I've been offered one donation to my hobby in 3 plus years. I just give it to friends, family and the occasion worker (repariman) who shows up does a good job on something around the place. Most seem to feel that's pretty good tip.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 15, 2018)

Most folks are happy to get a bottle. Had one person who was bound and determined they were going to pay me for the bottle. I took it back, while explaining what bootlegging is. They haven't talked to me since, so I call that one a win. 

My records are on my web site, so I have evidence of production levels. But I also mark far less than the 200 gallons/year. Most I did was 90 gallons in a year, and that was late 80's. Now days, 40 gallons is my max.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 15, 2018)

My local supply store owner had no good ideas for jump starting Batch #2. So I purchased another package of EC-1118, and rehydrated it in warm water and a teaspoon of sugar. Once it was foaming nicely, I added it to the carboy. That was last night -- I have some evidence of movement -- I'll check the SG in a few days to see if it budged. If I get any movement, I'll call it a win.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 16, 2018)

Good luck to ya. 

My order of Elderberry wine Base is supposed to arrive Wednesday or Thursday.


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## ASR (Oct 16, 2018)

Scooter68 said:


> Here's a hypothetical question - A neighbor thinks you are running a wine making business out of your home. Not being your "Friend" they contact "the local authorities" whomever that might be.
> 
> So the limit on wine making is 200 gallons a year by federal law and in most states ***
> You have 150 gallons total bulk aging, 20 gallons in active fermentation, and 350 bottles finished, labeled and on the shelf.
> ...


Since it's hypothetical, let's assume I have a nice, neat, organized and indexed set of records. For every batch I record all the key dates especially when I start and how big the batch is. Then when I bottle I annotate how many bottles I got from that batch and have the date on each label. For batches in production I have a tag on each carboy with start date and some other key dates. I don't have a list of who I give bottles to, but then I have never been close to the 200 gallon limit (thats roughly 1000 standard bottles). Unless there is something that just doesn't look right most government folks are going to be looking for some sort of CONSISTENT record keeping. Having several hundred-gallon stainless steel tanks, regular deliveries of pallets of bottles, high-pressure steam cleaners, and a couple of 'buddies' hanging out in white jump suits, hair nets, etc is likely going to tip them off......


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## winemaker81 (Oct 31, 2018)

I have absolutely no activity. Nothing is giving this puppy any get-up-and-go.

I know that when feeding sugar, we can't simply add up the deltas in SG to get the final total -- but now different is the reality from what adding up the delta's indicates?

Adding the deltas from the initial and second fermentations, the wine should be at 13.9% alcohol. I used EC-1118 (several times) so I should be able to get ~18%. I went from 1.078 to 1.000, then up to 1.030 and back to 1.002. To refresh everyone's memory, I bumped the SG back up to 1.032 and it's stayed there.

Could that produce enough alcohol to overwhelm EC-1118? It's either that or I got the underachiever of all yeasts. 

It any also be that I fermented a juice blend and something about the formulation is inhibiting continued fermentation. The world may never know ...

In any case, I'm going to stabilize it, fine it, and bottle as-is. It's sweeter than I intended, but will be fine.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 18, 2018)

I bottled batch #1 today. It's been crystal clear for a month so it was time.

The "right" way to do sweetening is to do a series of bench mixes and taste them side-by-side.

This time I did it differently. I poured a glass of the base wine, then mixed 1/2 cup sugar into the 3 gallon batch. Took a sample (using a wine thief) and tasted against the base wine. We tasted each successive sugar addition against the base wine. This method relies upon my experience in sweetening wines, and have the potential for significant error, e.g., it's rather difficult to remove sugar from the wine. But I felt like risk taking today.

The base wine is tasty, but a bit sharp. It's definitely one to sweeten slightly. [I have batch #2 which is more a port style, so I want #1 fairly dry.]

My elder son was helping me, which allowed me to get another opinion. [Like me he's a dry red wine guy.] He liked the addition, but thought it was still a bit sharp. So we added 1/4 cup more sugar, stirring well. [Love my drill mounted stirring rod!]

Even that small amount of sugar changed the wine again. We compared it to the sharpness of the base wine, and my son thought we should add more sugar. I tasted again and decided to sit pat. This wine will mellow in the bottle and in my experience it will settle nicely in a year, and be even better in two.

*Metheglin*

Then we bottled 5 gallons of metheglin (mead with cinnamon, cloves, and allspice). We did the same thing -- poured a glass of the base wine and then sweetened the bucket with 1/2 cup sugar, stirring well.

The base wine has too strong a clove taste. The addition of a small amount of sugar softened that tremendously. It still doesn't have as much cinnamon as I was targeting, but I like the result anyway (next batch will have more cinnamon stick). But the taste wasn't quite right so we added 1/4 cup more sugar.

I liked the taste much better, yet decided to add yet another 1/4 cup sugar. My son argued against it -- the cloves was much reduced with 3/4 cup sugar and he thought we'd lose it if we added more. So we tasted the base against the current, and I agreed with him.

One thing I keep in mind is if either wine needs more sugar after aging, I can keep a small container of sugar syrup in the fridge and sweeten to taste.

Bottling with a companion is always better than solo ...


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## winemaker81 (May 19, 2019)

I opened a bottle of the elderberry batch #1 to see how it's progressing. I was pleasantly surprised as it has already mellowed nicely.

My choice to not sweeten it more panned out. The wine has a bit of sweetness and definitely shows fruit -- more sugar would have missed the target that I aimed for (dry red wine). I won't open another bottle for at least 6 months.

Next time I do elderberry I will do 6 split bottles bone dry. It will be interesting to see how that progresses. If the wine is too sharp? Sangria ....


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## winemaker81 (Aug 26, 2020)

Update on the elderberry:

The lightly sweetened elderberry turned out really well. It's been a hit with everyone who's tried it, enough so that I have only 2 bottles left ...

The port version never fermented. In hindsight I realize I hit it with too much sugar at once. So I stabilized it and bottled. It's far too sweet (IMO) for a table wine, but it's a tasty dessert wine, even if the alcohol is low.

As I stated in the first post, I was concerned that the main ingredient on the label was apple juice. However, I'm happy with the final product.

The metheglin I mentioned is aging nicely. It's been in the bottle just short of 2 years, and the 2 bottles I've opened were very good. Wine-level mead takes time to age and I'm hoarding this one to allow it that time.


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