# Question about T/A and PH



## massimo15 (Oct 8, 2010)

I am fermenting some california red grapes and my T/A is 8 and PH is 3.8 what can I do to correct this? I am 6 days into fermenting


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 8, 2010)

massimo15 said:


> I am fermenting some california red grapes and my T/A is 8 and PH is 3.8 what can I do to correct this? I am 6 days into fermenting



Right now i would wait until fermentation is complete. Once complete rack to a clean sanitized carboy. Sample and see what you think - i have had some wines with higher acid levels and actually liked it better. If you don't like it take a reading - you can lower the TA by adding potassium carbonate and performing cold stabilization on it. Another option is to use acidex - this will lower the tartaric and the malic acids.


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## jet (Oct 8, 2010)

I agree about not adjusting acid during fermentation, unless you have no choice. Ideally you would adjust it before, but you can also adjust after it finishes.

You're in a tricky situation. You would probably want your pH to be lower, but doing that will also raise the TA, which is already a little high for a red.


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## robie (Oct 8, 2010)

jet said:


> I agree about not adjusting acid during fermentation, unless you have no choice. Ideally you would adjust it before, but you can also adjust after it finishes.
> 
> You're in a tricky situation. You would probably want your pH to be lower, but doing that will also raise the TA, which is already a little high for a red.



Yep, they are both high! TA and PH will change after fermentation, anyway. Might taste it after stabilizing and consider leaving it alone. The best judge is your own taste. Maybe someone like Grapeman or Wade will give us their opinion, They have lots of fresh grape experience. 

What variety of grapes are they?
Are you sure about your measurements?


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## jet (Oct 8, 2010)

robie said:


> ...
> Are you sure about your measurements?



Good point!

Have you checked the calibration on your pH meter? (I've been there myself.)
What about the TA? It can be tricky to measure in reds.


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## massimo15 (Oct 8, 2010)

Robie I used stirps for PH and TA I already added 4 tablespoons of tartaric acid to 25 gallons of wine. I called my local wine supply store and he recommended 1 gram per litre.The grapes are zin, san,


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## robie (Oct 8, 2010)

massimo15 said:


> Robie I used stirps for PH and TA I already added 4 tablespoons of tartric acid to 25 gallons of wine



You used strips - They tend to be hard to read and are not very accurate, but we will assume they are pretty close.

Sorry, but I gotta ask a few more questions. I want to make sure I am following you:
Did you take the TA and PH readings just before fermentation or sometime (days) after fermentation started?

Did you add the 4 tablespoons of tartaric acid before getting the reading of T/A of 8 and PH of 3.8 or after getting these readings?


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## massimo15 (Oct 8, 2010)

I took reading 5 days after crushing, I added tartaric the 6th day. The wine is still fermenting. I added after the reading.


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## robie (Oct 8, 2010)

massimo15 said:


> I took reading 5 days after crushing, I added tartaric the 6th day. The wine is still fermenting. I added after the reading.



If I understand, you took the TA and PH readings about 4 or 5 days after fermentation started; then you added your 4 tablespoons of acid. 

Normally, those readings are taken before fermenting and adjustment are made at that time. Then, they sometimes are taken again sometime after stabilizing to make further adjustments.

At this point, I would not take anymore readings or make anymore adjustments until after the wine is stabilized. It would be best if you acquire some more accurate and easier to use testing methods. Several LHBS sale TA and PH testing sets.

Also, when you do that post stabilization test, make adjustments on a controlled sample, not the whole batch of wine, and follow each sample adjustment with a taste test. It doesn't matter if the TA is perfect by test, but doesn't taste right to you.

Read chapter ten (page 45) of the below document. It will give you examples. It is a good document on wine making so I'd read the whole doc, ifI were you.
http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wredw.pdf


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## grapeman (Oct 8, 2010)

I assume you added the tartaric acid to try to lower the pH of the wine, but since you added it, you also raised the TA. The readings can be skewed during active fermentation because of all the C02 being generated. That can affect the readings severely. wait until fermentation is finished and then take a sample. Heat it up in the microwave to just short of boiling- like a real hot cup of coffee. Let it recool and then do your tests on it. That will get rid of the C02 and make your readings more accurate. Rather than messing with the chemistry since neither reading was all that bad, I would have just done a malolactic fermentation on it. That rounds it out and generally lowers the TA a couple points putting you in the correct range. I would still do that after getting some accurate post fermentation testing.


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## Millzy64 (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm with Grapeman. Innoculate with MLF.


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## vcarnuccio (Oct 12, 2010)

are you sure about your acid reading? How was it performed? I would be more concerned about the PH right now moreso than the acid. Wait until after fermenting to do anything else. I am most curious of the acid test done on red wines........... I haven't found a reliable test yet outside of sending samples to a lab.


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## robie (Oct 12, 2010)

vcarnuccio said:


> ........... I haven't found a reliable test yet outside of sending samples to a lab.



There is a way of using a standard acid test, which typically provides TA value by color change, that can be more accurate when it is done, not by observing color, but but stirring the test solution with the PH meter and adding component until the PH meter reads 8.2.

It takes away much of the pain caused by trying to test TA for a red wine. It is supposed to be very accurate. I like it!

You will find it covered under the testing topic heading.


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## jet (Oct 12, 2010)

robie said:


> There is a way of using a standard acid test, which typically provides TA value by color change, that can be more accurate when it is done, not by observing color, but but stirring the test solution with the PH meter and adding component until the PH meter reads 8.2.
> 
> It takes away much of the pain caused by trying to test TA for a red wine. It is supposed to be very accurate. I like it!
> 
> You will find it covered under the testing topic heading.



Too bad that doesn't work for SO2.


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## robie (Oct 13, 2010)

jet said:


> Too bad that doesn't work for SO2.



Jet,

http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/18643/


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