# A Coalition...of Sorts



## small_apt (Dec 16, 2013)

What do wine makers do with a neutral barrel? My very basic understanding is that wine makers age in barrels in order to impart oak flavor on the wine, but the amount of flavor imparted diminishes with multiple uses. After a while, the barrel remains a useful, if finicky, fermentation vessel, but not much more than that.

I ask the above question because I am not a wine maker, but a beer brewer. In particular, I am a home brewer interested in making "wild" beers (also called sours), which benefit from oak aging, but not in the same way a wine does. Wild beers are fermented with brettanomyces and various types of bacteria, both of which thrive in the porous environment of an oak barrel. 

You may be wondering what this has to do with a "coalition." While a wild beer benefits from oak aging, it is generally not desirable to impart a lot of oak flavor on the beer. Most breweries that produce these beers get their barrels used from wineries which have already depleted the barrel of its oak flavor. Aging in used barrels also lends vinous qualities to the beers from the lees left from the wine making process. 

I was curious if the home brewing and wine making communities might be interested in mimicking our larger brethren and recycling barrels for wild beer production once they have lost their oak character. The beer brewers benefit from the reduced oakiness and left-overs from the wine process. The wine makers are able to re-coup their costs and invest in new oak. What do you think? Are there any wine makers that would be interested in selling their used, smaller format oak barrels?


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 16, 2013)

This sounds fairly reasonable to me.


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## ibglowin (Dec 16, 2013)

Not gonna happen here. I have (4) 23L and 3 are now neutral. All I have to do now is add in 3oz of oak beans or even an oak spiral and I get the oak flavor back. More than oak flavor more importantly a barrel provides micro oxidation and concentration through evaporation which you can't get at all in a glass carboy.

"From my cold dead hands" as Charlton Heston said…..


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 16, 2013)

Most 5-6 gal barrels (use) are being sold for $80-$100, if this is the current pricing then it would almost justify getting a new 23 l barrel.


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## ibglowin (Dec 16, 2013)

Almost. But then you have to pay for shipping, rehydrate and seal, break in……

I want the micro ox and concentration more than anything. I don't want to have to go back to break in and running batches in and out in short order. A neutral barrel is with more to me than a new one as long as it is healthy.


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 16, 2013)

It would be nice to know that the option is there if needed in my opinion.


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## ibglowin (Dec 16, 2013)

Well of course they are there. I am only expressing my opinion here. That and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks!


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 16, 2013)

You can get a cup of Starbucks for $4?? Damn....in NYC you can hardly walk through the front door for $4...LOL
Mike, I understand it's your opinion, and I was just stating mine as well, although you are 100% correct about the barrels, this may be appealing to others that like the idea of being able to get new barrels more often, kind of like leasing a car....LOL
I really think it is a good concept, I'd like to hear more about it and possible cost ideas, Mike is correct about having to factor in shipping, but this is the beauty of having a new concept and working out the details.
I've shipped literally thousands of packages out yearly, once you source the boxes if that's the way you want to go with it, set up an account with USPS, Fedex or UPS, you can print shipping labels and set up daily pickup, it cuts out all of that waiting on lines at the Post office of the local UPS store, not to mention driving the packages there.
small_apt, I'd like to hear more, you can message me if you prefer, I think that this idea could become a decent "Coalition".


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## ibglowin (Dec 16, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> You can get a cup of Starbucks for $4?? Damn....in NYC you can hardly walk through the front door for $4...



Coffee yes any of those half half triple shot decaf soy latte blah blah blah will set you back quite a bit more…...


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## SouthernChemist (Dec 16, 2013)

ibglowin said:


> Not gonna happen here. I have (4) 23L and 3 are now neutral. All I have to do now is add in 3oz of oak beans or even an oak spiral and I get the oak flavor back. More than oak flavor more importantly a barrel provides micro oxidation and concentration through evaporation which you can't get at all in a glass carboy. "From my cold dead hands" as Charlton Heston said&hellip;..



I immediately had an image of Charlton Heston standing at a podium holding a wine barrel up in the air!


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 16, 2013)

> Coffee yes any of those half half triple shot decaf soy latte blah blah blah will set you back quite a bit more


Lmao! I'm not a "Foo Foo" type coffee drinker, as a matter of fact, I hardly drink it at all anymore, I was drinking several pots a day, when I worked in NYC, I would get at least 2 Venti with 4 shots, a 20 ounce coffee with 4 shots of espresso daily, that would get me going for a bit, liquid ambition...lol
Now if I have a cup a month, that is a lot, but it get the motor running.


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## small_apt (Dec 17, 2013)

Haha, perhaps I should have used the term "synergy" instead of "coalition." The latter gives the impression wine makers and beer brewers are at odds, but, really, we are all just trying to make something good to drink! 

Thanks everyone for the responses! ibglowin, I hadn't considered the micro-oxidation and suspected that my explanation was oversimplified. Its also a fair point about shipping costs, but presumably the buyer of your barrel would also have to pay to ship your barrel. There are certainly costs involved, but the question is whether the benefits of new barrels outweigh those costs. Sounds like possibly not for you. 

Pumpkinman, I'm glad you are interested in figuring out how this might work. I could message you and work out the details privately, or we could also continue this thread and get others to weigh in. Totally open to either.


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## JohnT (Dec 17, 2013)

small_apt said:


> What do wine makers do with a neutral barrel??


 
Some of us furnish our houses with them....


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 18, 2013)

small_apt, I still think it is a good idea, there are some people that will be purchasing bigger barrels in preparation of making fewer varieties but larger quantities, this would be perfect to recoup some of the funds and not have a barrel sitting empty and idle.
I currently have approx. 22 different varieties of wine aging and/or bottled, I plan on making fewer varieties each season, but increasing my average batch to 12-15 gallons.
I'll make a juice bucket or two to replenish the inventory as needed, but even then, I feel that a 12 gallon batch will be the min, several of my 2012 wines that I've tasted recently that have been aging for the past year have been amazing, I'm kicking myself for only making a 5 or 6 gallon batch.
Anyway, we can continue here if you would prefer or private message either way.


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