# Yeast Comparison [EC-1118 vs 71B-1122]



## dangerdave

I am doing a comparison of the Lavin EC-1118 and the Lavin 71B-1122 in a side-by-side Dragon Blood recipe study. I am using the basic DB recipe and presser method, and taking every effort to make these two batches exactly the same except for the different yeasts.

*Day 1*: (7-25-13) I gathered all of my ingredients...






Each batch got the following...

20 cups of sugar
48oz of Real Lemon Juice
6# of Wayman's Triple Berry Blend (frozen then thawed and placed in a fine mesh nylon bag tied shut) and all the related juices
1 tsp tannin
3 tsp yeast nutrient
1 tsp yeast energizer
3 tsp pectic enzyme
water to six gallons






SG for each was exactly 1.080 @ 70F. The fermenters were covered for overnight resting...





*Day 2*: Here goes the yeasties! Rehydrated per instructions and stirred into their respective musts (left to right)...










*Day 3*: Squeezing and stirring begins! Both batches were warm and showed a foamy cap with very active fermentation. SG = 1.065 @ 82F. I removed the heavy blanket and covered them with a lighter one.





Each fruit bag was squeezed equally, and vigorous stirring followed. I cleaned and sanitized all instruments in between batches to avoid cross contamination from the other yeast.

*Day 4*: Squeeze and stir!
EC-1118 (left) batch was SG = 1.030 @ 80F.
71B-1122 (right) batch was SG = 1.035 @ 80F.
Note: Both batches---aside from the slight SG difference---appeared exactly the same. By all signs (smell, cap, bubbling, etc), they could have been the same yeasts. Ditto. I raised the brew belts a few inches on the buckets to drop the temp slightly as fermentation continues.

Updates to come.


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## RCGoodin

What's your gut feeling of the outcome?


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## seth8530

Great idea for a study! I bet the 71B will have a lot more fruity flavours while the ec-1118 will end up being more neutral.


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## ibglowin

It will be interesting to see how 71B does in the long run. Skeeter Pee is not the easiest thing to ferment out to dry and EC1118 is the Terminator of yeast. 71B is a great yeast and used to soften high acid wines as it will chew on Malic acid as well. 

Looking forward to the end results!


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## jamesngalveston

dave, i did the exact same test, but used red star montrachet, and red star pasteur red.
i think that the pasteur red gave better color, and overall a better fruit flavor.....
both were started at 1.110, and I let both finish fermenting in primary before i racked.
not sure if these helps..but hope so..somewhere down the line..
thanks


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## RCGoodin

seth8530 said:


> Great idea for a study! I bet the 71B will have a lot more fruity flavours while the ec-1118 will end up being more neutral.


 
Are your predictions from experience, knowledge, or a guess?


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## seth8530

My predictions come from stuff I read on yeast. For instance



> 71B was isolated by Pr. Maugenet’s team at the INRA (National Agricultural Research Institute) in
> Narbonne, France. 71B is known for making blush and semi-sweet wines and owes its success to
> its abilities to produce amyl ester (isoamyl acetate), reinforcing the aromatic profile of
> wines. 71B also softens high acid musts by partially metabolizing malic acid (20-30%).



Lower acid and more amyl esters could mean fruitier smells leading to fruitier taste.. Atleast that is my prediction.. Of course nutrient needs and temperatures matter.


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## jamesngalveston

here is something for you seth.
figs and plums have more starch then other fruits...
both will heat up during fermentation like to 85 degrees are more.
and both are insanely hard to clear, and both will get starch haze very easily if you let the temp get to 90.
no one ever mentions starch....


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## loumik

jamesngalveston said:


> here is something for you seth.
> figs and plums have more starch then other fruits...
> both will heat up during fermentation like to 85 degrees are more.
> and both are insanely hard to clear, and both will get starch haze very easily if you let the temp get to 90.
> no one ever mentions starch....


 
What does this have to do with Dave's test?

LOUMIK


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## jamesngalveston

nothing, just pertains to different yeast mfg, have different properties and out come.


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## Pumpkinman

Dave, this a great post, this is the kind of info that can help a lot of people to understand how we can taylor our wines to our own preferences, my hat is off to you.
I'll post my 71B-1122 vs. BM45 test in another thread.


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## RCGoodin

seth8530 said:


> My predictions come from stuff I read on yeast. For instance
> 
> 
> 
> Lower acid and more amyl esters could mean fruitier smells leading to fruitier taste.. At least that is my prediction.. Of course nutrient needs and temperatures matter.


 
It surely sounds like 71B does a better job. Is it a harder yeast to get fermentation started? I'm assuming that the Lavlin EC 1118 is an easier yeast to get the fermentation started since it's the yeast that comes with all the kits.


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## dangerdave

Well, they're both running neck and neck right now. No problem getting either one started.

I _hope_ that the 71B _does_ improve the fruity esters. I have struggled to find a definitive improvement to the original DB recipe, with little or no success. But I soldier on, and I get to drink all my experiments!


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## RCGoodin

Dave, Onward and Upword. I look forward to your findings.


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## seth8530

RCGoodin said:


> It surely sounds like 71B does a better job. Is it a harder yeast to get fermentation started? I'm assuming that the Lavlin EC 1118 is an easier yeast to get the fermentation started since it's the yeast that comes with all the kits.



Yeah, that and I would not be surprised if it needs more nitrogen than EC 1118.. EC1118 is like tank yeast lol. Will be interesting to see what the 71B does to the acidity.


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## WVMountaineerJack

What exactly are you testing for DD? You are not challenging either yeast, EC1118 is going to eat EVERYTHING and starve. THere is not much fruit in DB and its going to eat it all. Montrachet vs bread yeast would be a better matching test appropriate for what you are trying to do. Now if you keep adding some more fruit to make it a better wine and drive the SG up a good bit then the EC1118 would shine, but in this case it is not the yeast to use and it wont be happy. WVMJ


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## dangerdave

Thank you for your comments, Jack. I appreciate criticism in all of it's tones.

I think I made it very plain what I am testing. In case you didn't read the OP, I am making two batches of Dragon Blood side-by-side with two different yeasts to see if the outcome shows a favorate. I have made a lot of the DB, and so have many others. I have used EC-1118 in most all of my batches, for years. I do so primarily because of the EC-1118's tolerance levels and rapid fermentation. If there is one place where the EC-1118 shines, it is in the DB recipe. I have used Montrachet, but "bread yeast", IMO, would be a bad choice unless one were making bread, so I have no interest in doing such a pointless comparison. The goal is to improve my recipe, for myself, and for those who like this wine.

You are very right that the DB does not use much fruit. And that is indeed the wonder of this recipe. It's not sophisticated, nor snobbish, nor pretentious. It is a cheap, quick, light wine. But those who like it, like it a lot. It comes out crisp and fruity---inspite of less fruit being used in the must. Beginners can use my recipe to learn to make wine from scratch without the fear of wasting a great deal of money if they fail. Nearly eveyone here who has made the DB as a beginner has gone on to make better wines, and yet still continues to make DB, because eveyone loves it. It is a marvelous thing that has taken on a life of it's own. Dozens of variations now exist, with more being concocted all the time.

Once again, I value your opinion, but I have to ask, "Have you ever made or tasted any Dragon Blood?" While it is true that many people prefer other types of wine, your criticism would hold more weight if you could speak with experiential authority. I'ts cheap and easy. Try a batch. I would cherish your feedback.

Edit: Better yet, PM me your address, and I will send you a couple of bottles to enjoy---or dump out---at your leisure.


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## WVMountaineerJack

Dear DD, wasnt WVMJ the guy who helped you stop putting in 6X more sulphite than was needed in DB? Wasnt that a bit helpful and believe me it was hard to convince you? If you matched the yeast to this, maybe a pasteur red would be the best, but EC1118 is a bulldog and is overkill big time. Sorry if you taking this as a personal hit DD, I remember it was hard to get you to stop using so much KM from the start to so I will just hang in here and keep trying. If you are going to do experiments you have to take criticisms to help guide them, if you only want people to tell you how good your idea is all the time you wont progress very far. As far as making one, not enough room, but this is about the strength of a light seconds batch, or even a bottle of Strawberry Hill would probably be about right . Dont forget JAOM is made with bread yeast, and its only garunteed to work if you use bread yeast, if you use wine yeast it wont work, the best yeast is matched to the wine to be made. WVMJ


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## ShelleyDickison

This last batch I made I used the 71B. I can't give you scientific data but I can tell you I smell more fruit than the last 2 batches I had made. Not sure if that helps. I haven't tasted it yet though.


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## Deezil

Hey Dave,

I dunno how I missed this for so long!

Not that I'm not interested in the outcome, but I would be more interested, personally, if more notes were taken. And I'd be even more interested if this experiment led to another. Let me elaborate..

So now, you're basically comparing 71B to 1118, in the same conditions. 

Are you tracking the temp differences in the musts, taken at the same intervals? I would guess that 1118, being the bull in a china shop that it is, would get warmer faster and would probably ferment faster, even at the same air temp as 71B.. Increased activity leads to increased heat accumulation, leads to a difference in amount of esters created and contained (not blown away with CO2).. Leads to a different outcome.

How about acidity levels? Are you tracking the change made by 71B's ability to metabolize malic acid vs 1118's inability? This will come into play later, when you try to sweeten each - my gut says it wont take as much sugar to bring the 71B into balance as it will 1118, due to the difference in acidity. 

Are you using the same amount/type of yeast nutrient for each yeast?

And that leads me to the "next experiment";
Provided you have a clear winner here..
Because you're so familiar with DB..

I would like to see a "Part Deux" 
Repeat this experiment, with the winning yeast

With 1 of the 2, use your normal yeast nutrient program (which is...?)
With the other, use Go-Ferm to rehydrate & Fermaid-O for the fermentation

Then compare those same notes;
Temp
pH/TA
Length of ferment

And more importantly, the sensory impact.
Which has a more pleasant aroma?
Which has a better flavor? 
Does one have any smells/flavors that the other doesnt?

I have my guesses on how this will all play out, but I'll withhold those in order to maintain a certain amount of unbiased opinions here.. If too many people say the same thing, regardless of what it is, it could skew the results by having Dave interpret things subconsciously, to fit what he would "expect" to happen. 

Just some food for thought, Dave.
Will be watching this play out, for sure
Good luck!


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## Pumpkinman

Not that I want to speak for Dave, but....I think that everyone is taking this out of context, I had the impression that Dave has heard so much about 71B-1122, that he wanted to do a side by side comparison to see if there are any differences in his batches of DB, for himself, and wanted to share it with us.
I could be wrong.


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## jamesngalveston

Dont forget JAOM is made with bread yeast...what is jaom


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## dangerdave

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Dear DD, wasnt WVMJ the guy who helped you stop putting in 6X more sulphite than was needed in DB? Wasnt that a bit helpful and believe me it was hard to convince you?


 
Was that you? I had completely forgotten. Thank you for that. It was very helpful.



> If you matched the yeast to this, maybe a pasteur red would be the best, but EC1118 is a bulldog and is overkill big time.


 
I started with the EC-1118 because that was what Lon called for in his original Skeeter Pee Recipe, and---being a beginner---I wanted to follow his recipe to the tee. Since then, I have tried many different variations in the recipe I derived from his...the DB. If the EC-1118 is, as you say, "overkill big time" then it is indeed a wonder that I (and many others) have used it to make such wonderful wine under such adverse conditions. Can you explain this?



> Sorry if you taking this as a personal hit DD, I remember it was hard to get you to stop using so much KM from the start to so I will just hang in here and keep trying. If you are going to do experiments you have to take criticisms to help guide them, if you only want people to tell you how good your idea is all the time you wont progress very far.


 
Were you being personal? I didn't think so. But you are not dealing with the same person who came here several years ago. And in this instance, I can say with confidence that you are wrong. I have a whole slew of people (and even a few wine judges) who will back me up. You may scoff at my methods, but you cannot deny the results---unless you have tried it yourself. 



> As far as making one, not enough room, but this is about the strength of a light seconds batch, or even a bottle of Strawberry Hill would probably be about right.


 
Now you're getting the picture! It's not made to be a strong wine. I have other wines in my cellar for those who want a strong red or a full-bodied white. The EC-1118 has worked just fine over many batches. But, if you might notice, this experiment _is_ my attempt to find a better yeast for this recipe. So, your criticism is rather moot.

But thanks anyway. You are welcome to keep trying, if you feel the need.


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## dangerdave

Manley, you are very thorough. But this is a much more casual and superficial experiment, perhaps, than you would do. I jusy wanted to keep it simple.

I have taken the temps and SG each day as I squeeze and stir. That's it. No acid testing. I am far more interested in the outcome than the process. Both batches will be treated exactly the same way, per the DB recipe, with no variation except the yeast employed. I am more the artist than the scientist when it comes to wine making. Quite a change for me, really.

I am sorry, my friend. This is not going to be a sophisticated endeavor.


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## dangerdave

Pumpkinman said:


> Not that I want to speak for Dave, but....I think that everyone is taking this out of context, I had the impression that Dave has heard so much about 71B-1122, that he wanted to do a side by side comparison to see if there are any differences in his batches of DB, for himself, and wanted to share it with us.
> I could be wrong.


 
Precisely, Tom! I couldn't have said it better.


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## seth8530

dangerdave said:


> Manley, you are very thorough. But this is a much more casual and superficial experiment, perhaps, than you would do. I jusy wanted to keep it simple.
> 
> I have taken the temps and SG each day as I squeeze and stir. That's it. No acid testing. I am far more interested in the outcome than the process. Both batches will be treated exactly the same way, per the DB recipe, with no variation except the yeast employed. I am more the artist than the scientist when it comes to wine making. Quite a change for me, really.
> 
> I am sorry, my friend. This is not going to be a sophisticated endeavor.



The only thing I am worried about with your test is that you may not get the full feel of how the 71B should come out due to being possibly being throttled out by nutrients. Ie, EC-1118 would do much better in a fruit wine than say D-47 when it is starved for nutrients.


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> Are you using the same amount/type of yeast nutrient for each yeast?
> 
> And that leads me to the "next experiment";
> Provided you have a clear winner here..
> Because you're so familiar with DB..
> 
> I would like to see a "Part Deux"
> Repeat this experiment, with the winning yeast
> 
> With 1 of the 2, use your normal yeast nutrient program (which is...?)
> With the other, use Go-Ferm to rehydrate & Fermaid-O for the fermentation
> 
> Then compare those same notes;
> Temp
> pH/TA
> Length of ferment
> 
> *And more importantly, the sensory impact.
> Which has a more pleasant aroma?
> Which has a better flavor?
> Does one have any smells/flavors that the other doesnt?*
> 
> I have my guesses on how this will all play out, but I'll withhold those in order to maintain a certain amount of unbiased opinions here.. If too many people say the same thing, regardless of what it is, it could skew the results by having Dave interpret things subconsciously, to fit what he would "expect" to happen.



This is the part that I was really hoping Dave would give consideration.

I could share what I think might happen in a DAP-based nutrient vs organic-nitrogen nutrient, but I wouldnt want to bias Dave too much beforehand 

I can understand and honor your approach, Dave.. Like always it seems, I just cant help but try


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## Pumpkinman

Manley, I'd be very interested in hearing about the various nutrients. Can you start a new thread?


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## WVMountaineerJack

DD, you are in the classic if it aint broke dont fix it mode, my way or highway mode, cant get any better than this  I tried. Good luck and I hope you win hundreds of metals all over the world. WVMJ


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## seth8530

Pumpkinman said:


> Manley, I'd be very interested in hearing about the various nutrients. Can you start a new thread?




We already have a pretty well develoiped thread on this... Make sure you read it all the way through though because their are developments made in our discoveries....

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/got-off-phone-fermaid-people-38704/


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## dangerdave

Shoot, I don't even know what kind/brand/type of nutrient I have. It's the stuff I get when I order nutrient from George. You're asking the artist what kind of paint he's using for his pictures. The painter says, "The kind with colors. Ain't it a purdy painting?" 

Now that I have Jack off my back, I can return to having fun making wine and winning medals! 

I'll be going home to squeeze and stir this morning and make a few notes. Manley has the right idea. I intend to concentrate on the all important outcome in this comparision...

*"And more importantly, the sensory impact.*
*Which has a more pleasant aroma?*
*Which has a better flavor? *
*Does one have any smells/flavors that the other doesnt?"*

That is how I have always made my wines. Very little testing but lots of tasting and smelling. After fermentation is complete (end of the week), I will plunge in with all my senses.


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## GreginND

seth8530 said:


> We already have a pretty well develoiped thread on this... Make sure you read it all the way through though because their are developments made in our discoveries....
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/got-off-phone-fermaid-people-38704/



Yes, this is a great discussion worthy of bookmarking.


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## dangerdave

*Day 6*: Fermetation is nearly complete! I have been able to keep both batches at exactly the same temp throughout primary fermentation---which was my main concern. I wanted to see if one would go dry before the other. Surprisingly (to me, at least) they continued with their previous trend and completed as if the same yeast had been used in both! So far, under _this_ test's conditions, I have found absolutely no difference between these two yeasts.

EC-1118: SG = 0.992 @ 72F
71B-1122: SG = 0.995 @ 72F

Since the wines were dry (or almost dry) I performed the final squeeze on the bags of fruit and removed them for good. My stirring has off-gassed the wines nicely, so degassing should be easy when the time comes. I will let them sit quietly for a few more days, and then proceed with my observations. I plan to have a good sniff and taste prior to stabilization and clearing, to see if a I can discover any differences.

I have to say, I really expected some kind of varition in the action of these two yeasts during primary fermentation. If it comes down to it, what conclusions can we draw if these two wines come out exactly the same in all aspects? I remember in my bentonite vs sparkolloid comparison, the two test batches had different qualities up front, but after a month in the bottle, you couldn't tell them apart. That's why I stuck with the sparkolloid, because it seemed to have less adverse effect on the wine at clearing, making the DB more drinkable right away.

We shall see! That's why I love these comparison studies. Sometimes you learn things that no amount of "uneducated specualtion"  can predict.


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## seth8530

The differences are likely to be in the taste and smell department rather than the rate of fermentation department.


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## RCGoodin

Thanks for the update.


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## dangerdave

Woops! Got busy this past week and forgot to update...

*Day 9*: After the wines had sat for a few more days, I pulled the lids back and had a look. They appeared the same...







I drew a small sample of each for a sniff-taste. Without a doubt, the EC-1118 gave the DB more of a distinct tartness, while the 71B-1122 was much smoother and fruitier. The taste carried over into the aromas as well, with the EC nipping at the nose a bit. These descriptions are taking into account any preconceptions and the fact that, at this stage, the wines are new-born and non-sweetened.

Both batches sat squarely at the SG of 0.992 at 72F.






After I carefully drained the contents of each batch into their respective carboys, I had a look at the lees. The EC's lees (below-top) appears slightly "chunkier" than the creamy consistancy of the 71B lees (below-bottom).










I then degassed each batch by running them---separately---one time through my "falling-film-degassing-widget" thingy using my handy-dandy _allinonewinepump _(below). I usually rack batches of wine several times under vacuum to be sure they are thoroughly degassed before clearing. These I did only once, for a reason. I want to see if the yeast used has had any effect on the amount of gas released or retained by the wine. Both wines appeared to produce very little gas at this point---which may have more to do with my treatment of the wines during fermentation than any effect of the yeasts.






The batches were moved to the bench, and treated with Sparkolloid. It appears that the 71B (right) has produced a slightly darker DB.






They will be left to clear completely, then I'll taste again before and after back sweetening.

Stay tuned...if you dare!!! ::


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## RCGoodin

Looking forward to the next update. At this point one would think the 71B has a little better mouth feel after tasting. Your thoughts?


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## TommBomb

Thanks Dave, from my point of you I think your experiment was a worthy one. I know we can get into more details and dig deeper, but I don't see that many other people doing this kind of experimentation. So as a bystander learning something new to make a better product I'm all in. Cheers


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## dangerdave

So far, RC, you are correct.

Tom, thanks for the kudos. I like to try different stuff---as in any hobby---trying to improve. And I learn better by doing. If my trials (success or failure) can help someone else, more the better. I know a lot of folks make and like the DB, so there's a fan base to consider in improving the final product. It may be important to understand that other yeasts will work fine for DB (or any Skeeter Pee version), or may even make a better wine than the EC-1118 originally emplyed by Lon.


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## wineforfun

Great work Dave, thanks for the update.


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## dangerdave

Time for an update! And what an update it is! Stow all of your preconceptions about the outcome of this test and read on...

The Dragon Bloods are both clear, so I racked them off the sediment a few days ago and sat them infront of my light to compare their color. The picture below does not lie. The wine on the right is definately darker, richer in color! I know you can't read the tags, but try to guess which is which before you read below.







First, I'll tell you all what I discovered, then I'll give you my opinion as to why. But before that, let me again emphasize that I did everything in my power to make these wines side-by-side, exactly the same. Since we all make wines, we understand that certain conditions are beyond our control. For example, I cannot confirm that the exact amount of each fruit (blackberry/blueberry/raspberry) was preasant in each batch. One batch could very well be darker because of the quality or quantity of a particualar fruit in the batch. I did all I could to make this a fair and useable comaprision. Enough about that, though.

Read on...Note: At this point, neither wine has been sweetened.

That's the 71B on the left, and the EC on the right. Aside from the color variation, there was more. I poured a small amount of each wine into two small glasses. Not stating which was which, I presented them to my wife. She's my "second opinion". In this case, she nailed my own observations precisely, without prompting.

*COLOR*: As far as color goes, you've seen the picture above. The EC produced a wine of deeper color. It showed in the glasses, too. The 71B just looked thinner. At the point where the wine met the glass, the EC version held it's color, and clung more readily to the side than the 71B. The EC produced the characteristic ruby red color I have come to associate with the DB, while the 71B gave the impression of a more subtle blush---like White Zin, my wife said. I agreed.

*AROMA*: At this point, things became more similar. The 71B produced a nice fruity aroma, with no hint of acid in the nose. Again, very subtle, and very pleasant. The 71B had done it's work! Then came the EC. It had a distinctive scent of fruit and fresh lemon. Much closer to what one would expect from fruit that is both sweet and tart at the same time. Both were very nice to the nose. A plus on both accounts.

*TASTE*: Then we came down to it. For me, the flavor is everything. The 71B turned out to be very light, with virtually none of the acid "tang" I have come to associate with the my beloved DB. This yeast had most definately worked on the acids during primary fermentation, producing a light fruity wine, easy on the tongue, with a flavor that vanished quickly after tasting. If you like a nice, glossy, white zin with good fruit flavor and no bite, then this is the one for you. On the other hand, the EC produced a wine with more body, bolder character, with a bit of "zing". The acidity was right there with the fruit, declairing the lemon as equal to the rest. It stayed on the tongue longer and produced a lingering after-taste that made me want to snack my lips.

My thoughts: For me (and my wife), this was a no brainer. The EC-1118 produced as it always had; the DB that we have always enjoyed. While not as strong---acidly---as Lon's original Skeeter Pee, the balance it produced in the particular wine was spot-on. Was the 71B-1122 an improvement? Not in my opinion. However, if you find yourself drinking your DB and wishing it was lighter and less acidic, then the 71B might be your answer. But if you are like me, and want your DB with a bit of a tart bite, and a fuller body, then stick with the EC-1118.

Why? As the 71B-1122 is described, it works to recude the acidity in wines where the fruit being used (such as blackberry) has a higher Ph. These acids, I am convinced, are what give the DB it's distinctive color and flavor, working---along with the yeast---to draw more tannins and color from the skins, pulp, and seeds of the fruit. Remove or reduce these acids (as in the action of the 71B), and you reduce this desireable action, producing a paler, smoother, lighter wine. The EC-1118, being the "work horse" of yeasts, thrives in this kind of enviroment; a fact, no doubt, known to our illustrious inventer of the original SP recipe. My hat's off to Lon DePope!

I am still yet to sweeten these batches, but I hardly see where this will change the facts. My plan, if they maintian their individual charaters, is to blend the two batches prior to bottling. If I don't, my wife will ask my every time we open a bottle which one it is. She still wants the original DB, not a whole batch of sudo-white-zin.

I hope this simple study has helped the DB fan base, encouraging those who like the original, and giving hope to those who want a lighter version.

Peace out!


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## ShawnDTurner

Dave........interesting observation. Would like to see you put back 3 bottles of each for 6 to 9 months and see if your opinions on the two changes. Cheers!


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## jamesngalveston

Dave, very informative..but>>>>>> you used strains of yeast from the same maker, which is good.....
We now know which is the one for giving the various characters of a finished wine.
I would like to see a test using a lalvin and a red star...since those two are the prominent yeast makers.
Lets do a test, from ferment to completion with dated pics.
You using lalvin, me using redstar...just for comparison .
I know you love a challenge...lol


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## dangerdave

I've got both Lavin EC-1118 and Red Star Premier Cuvee on hand. While I appreciate your challenge, it would be hard for us, separately, to keep our techniques and conditions exactly the same. That was what I was striving for in this test. I wanted the variations---if there were any---to come from the action of the yeast alone.

Maybe, if you don't mind me stealing the idea, that's what I should do next; compare the EC-1118 with the Premier Cuvee. Not a bad idea at all. But I still think only one person should do it, to maintain optimal conditions. You can do it if you like. If not, I might give it a go. I'm making DB all the time (I know you are, too), so the more, the merrier! It's going to get drank (or is it "drunk"?).

Ok, Shawn, yours is a good idea, too. I'll bottle several of each before the final blending, store them for six months, then give them a try. I'll revisit this test in March and compare their qualities again.


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## Norske

Appreciate the work you put into this.


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## wood1954

Great reporting, i love reading about your DB. i'm currently using both yeasts on my elderberry wine, the 71b to take care of the harshness of the malic acid and the ec1118 to make sure it finishes fermenting all the way. I couldn't get a good SG reading off the straight juice so estimated the sugar content of the elderberries and added 12 lbs of sugar to about 6 gallons of must. so far so good.


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## Deezil

Dave, have you measured the acidity of each batch?

If you like the 'zing' from the acidity, i would encourage you to add pure Tartaric to the 71B, to bring it in-line with the acidity of the 1118.

This will show you the differences in 71B & 1118 (and malic vs tartaric), at the acidity that you prefer. With malic being sharper than tartaric, on the palette, you might find that even after adding acidity to the 71B - that it has both the 'zing' you like, but a smoothness not found in the 1118 due to the malic-to-tartaric difference. 

I'd be curious in your findings. 

Sounds like the 71B is low on acid for your liking anyhow. 

For anyone with acid-reflux (like I), 71B may be a better option as well..


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## vernsgal

This is what is great to see on this site. It shows us actual outcomes , not just things picked up on the internet, so we can judge and decide for ourselves what we would like. Thanks Dave!
Also, it proves choosing the right yeast is important on your outcome


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## Julie

Nice experiment Dave!

Wood1954, just curious, why couldn't you get a good reading on your elderberry?


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## dangerdave

I have not checked the Ph of either, nor do I ever checked acid levels in my wines. Folks keep telling me I should, but I let my taste buds be the judge. I balance my wines to what I like. That may be a higher or lower Ph prefered by others---or what's recommended---but my wines are made for _me_, and my lovely wife, Johnna.


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## jamesngalveston

yes dave , i agree,,, when you get a chance,,, i for one would like to see any comparison of the two yeast mfg..
i have not used any lalvin yeast to date, but plan to purchase some soon.


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## wineforfun

Very interesting Dave. I would have bet everything that the darker one was the 71-B. I have a 2 gallon batch going and it appears to me that mine is darker(like yours on the right) than normal, and I used 71-B this time too. I will keep you posted on how mine goes as 1 of the gallons I am going to add chocolate to and see how that goes.
Maybe in the end, there is no need to "re-create the wheel".


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## seth8530

I believe it is likely that the darker one was EC-1118 possibly because of a more rigorous fermentation resulting in hotter temperatures and better colour extraction. This of course is conjecture since I was not their with a thermometer.


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## wood1954

Julie, i couldn't smash the berries very well because they were so darn small. I gave up and added the water and figured i would mash up the berries with my hands as they fermented and got softer. I didn't feel i got much in the way of juice so i looked up the average sugar content of wild elderberries (7.5%) and 12 lbs of sugar should have made the must about SG1100. After 48 hours i measured SG 1095. i need a better way of mashing the little critters, or maybe after picking them off their frozen stems for 3.5 hours i was just not very patient. It turned out Ok, the juice is way better than my first attempt two years ago.


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## Rob6578

wood1954 said:


> Julie, i couldn't smash the berries very well because they were so darn small. I gave up and added the water and figured i would mash up the berries with my hands as they fermented and got softer. I didn't feel i got much in the way of juice so i looked up the average sugar content of wild elderberries (7.5%) and 12 lbs of sugar should have made the must about SG1100. After 48 hours i measured SG 1095. i need a better way of mashing the little critters, or maybe after picking them off their frozen stems for 3.5 hours i was just not very patient. It turned out Ok, the juice is way better than my first attempt two years ago.


I'm not sure why such an old post came up in my notifications lol, but I got a plastic potato masher and it worked great for my blueberry and blackberry batches lol


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## DizzyIzzy

dangerdave said:


> Thank you for your comments, Jack. I appreciate criticism in all of it's tones.
> 
> I think I made it very plain what I am testing. In case you didn't read the OP, I am making two batches of Dragon Blood side-by-side with two different yeasts to see if the outcome shows a favorate. I have made a lot of the DB, and so have many others. I have used EC-1118 in most all of my batches, for years. I do so primarily because of the EC-1118's tolerance levels and rapid fermentation. If there is one place where the EC-1118 shines, it is in the DB recipe. I have used Montrachet, but "bread yeast", IMO, would be a bad choice unless one were making bread, so I have no interest in doing such a pointless comparison. The goal is to improve my recipe, for myself, and for those who like this wine.
> 
> You are very right that the DB does not use much fruit. And that is indeed the wonder of this recipe. It's not sophisticated, nor snobbish, nor pretentious. It is a cheap, quick, light wine. But those who like it, like it a lot. It comes out crisp and fruity---inspite of less fruit being used in the must. Beginners can use my recipe to learn to make wine from scratch without the fear of wasting a great deal of money if they fail. Nearly eveyone here who has made the DB as a beginner has gone on to make better wines, and yet still continues to make DB, because eveyone loves it. It is a marvelous thing that has taken on a life of it's own. Dozens of variations now exist, with more being concocted all the time.
> 
> Once again, I value your opinion, but I have to ask, "Have you ever made or tasted any Dragon Blood?" While it is true that many people prefer other types of wine, your criticism would hold more weight if you could speak with experiential authority. I'ts cheap and easy. Try a batch. I would cherish your feedback.
> 
> Edit: Better yet, PM me your address, and I will send you a couple of bottles to enjoy---or dump out---at your leisure.


Hi DD, I am new to winemaking, but one of my first attempts was your recipe for DDDB (because of the many complimentary posts I have seen on this site). I have to say that I am thrilled with the DB. The taste is wonderful, the color is beautiful, and I am very grateful that you developed this recipe. Be sure and share any new recipes that you develop....................................Dizzy


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## DizzyIzzy

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Dear DD, wasnt WVMJ the guy who helped you stop putting in 6X more sulphite than was needed in DB? Wasnt that a bit helpful and believe me it was hard to convince you? If you matched the yeast to this, maybe a pasteur red would be the best, but EC1118 is a bulldog and is overkill big time. Sorry if you taking this as a personal hit DD, I remember it was hard to get you to stop using so much KM from the start to so I will just hang in here and keep trying. If you are going to do experiments you have to take criticisms to help guide them, if you only want people to tell you how good your idea is all the time you wont progress very far. As far as making one, not enough room, but this is about the strength of a light seconds batch, or even a bottle of Strawberry Hill would probably be about right . Dont forget JAOM is made with bread yeast, and its only garunteed to work if you use bread yeast, if you use wine yeast it wont work, the best yeast is matched to the wine to be made. WVMJ


What is JAOM?....................................Dizzy


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## sour_grapes

DizzyIzzy said:


> What is JAOM?....................................Dizzy



Joe's Ancient Orange Mead: Joe's Ancient Orange Mead


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## garymc

There was no update after backsweetening. Did that have no effect?


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## winemanden

Did Mountaineer Jack answer the question, what is JAOM? I'm curious.


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## cmason1957

winemanden said:


> Did Mountaineer Jack answer the question, what is JAOM? I'm curious.


Paul, @sour_grapes did about two posts above yours.


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## G259

. . . just wondering, with such close proximity, is cross contamination a likely result?


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