# Beginning a Winery



## grapeman (Dec 14, 2011)

Wade created the subforum, but no posts here yet so I made this one for the topic to show up. Now all we need is to fill in a bunch of stuff.

I will comment here some as I get time as I took the route over the last few years.


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## grapeman (Dec 14, 2011)

So you have some place to begin, here is a link to a packet you can get from the Federal Government at the TTB. It will give you a small idea of what to begin with. 
http://www.ttb.gov/applications/index.shtml

The whole process involves working with the TTB, your local jurisdiction and your state. Therefore the process will be different from one winery to another. If you want to apply, don't wait until the last minute. In NY the whole process can take from 6 moths to a couple years.


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## UBB (Dec 15, 2011)

Do you employ enough people to harvest your grapes or do you solicit volunteers. I know some wineries in our area count mostly on volunteers to bring the grapes in?


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2011)

So Rich, if I want to open an winery to sell the wines that I am making and bottling, I need to fill out the Winery/Taxpaid Wine Bottling House?


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## grapeman (Dec 15, 2011)

Hey Julie, I'm by no means an expert on any of this, but you will need some sort of permit to do that. You can call them and hope they can tell you the proper route. It took me months of digging to figure out the route I needed to take. Every state and municipality is different and it all depends on your business plan and structure. Here in NY we need to get the TTB permits first before we can submit to the state, but that varies.


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## grapeman (Dec 15, 2011)

UBB I do almost all the work myself. I get my boys to help pick sometimes. Eventually I will need a few pickers and at that time I may see if I can get some of the Jamaican apple pickers that are employed around here. They are employed and housed by growers that harvest hundreds or thousands of acres a year.


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks, my husband, Mike, thinks we should seriously look into this for when we retire as. I guess I should contact the state and see what they say. I'm glad this thread was started. I will post what I find out what PA wants from us.


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## Wade E (Dec 15, 2011)

Julie, I looked somewhat into here in Ct. and to sell any wine I made I had to have a certain amount of the fruit grown on my property. I never git any further then that but maybe someday!


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## grapeman (Dec 15, 2011)

Most states don't care about how much or little you grow, unless you call it a farm winery. Then you need to at least run a "farm" which means you need to generate a certain amount of income from the business. Here in NY we can only use grapes or juice grown in NY for us to use the farm winery classification which has lower bond and tax rates than a regular commercial license. With it we are allowed to make up to 150,000 gallons of wine a year- no danger of that here!


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## Wade E (Dec 15, 2011)

I know there are a few places around lik e Brew on premise places that can sell the wine they make from kits. That would be a damn good deal. I think High Gravity Brewing just did this a month ago.


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2011)

We have a couple of wineries in our area that get their juice from Presque Isle, they make it on their premises, bottle it and sell it.

I actually was thinking of doing a ferment on premises with winemaking classes.


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## grapeman (Dec 15, 2011)

Wade E said:


> I know there are a few places around lik e Brew on premise places that can sell the wine they make from kits. That would be a damn good deal. I think High Gravity Brewing just did this a month ago.


 
The Feds would let us do that here, but not the state.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 15, 2011)

Julie I have heard great things about those wineries and have met or worked with a few of them. I am hoping to get down there to visit them some day soon. Have you gone to Doug's friends winery (Kavic winery). That would be a great one for you to talk to.


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## Julie (Dec 15, 2011)

Runningwolf said:


> Julie I have heard great things about those wineries and have met or worked with a few of them. I am hoping to get down there to visit them some day soon. Have you gone to Doug's friends winery (Kavic winery). That would be a great one for you to talk to.



Dan, if you are able to come down some day, let me know, i'll take you around. Rustic Acres is very small but totally awesome. There is another one called The Vineyard by Mellon, this guy sells his grapes to Presque Isle and then their is Narcissi and Volant. The only winery around here that I will not take you to is Winfield Winery, this guy is a total jerk and the last time i had any of his wines they had a watery taste to them. He would be the type to add water to a finished wine to increase the volume.


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## Runningwolf (Dec 15, 2011)

Narcissi and Kavik are first on my list. I'll let you know.


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## winemaker_3352 (Dec 16, 2011)

I would be curious as to what licenses i would need to start up a winery. I know all states will vary on this, but is there a general idea of the licensing you would need??


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## shoebiedoo (Dec 16, 2011)

I've done some checking on this here in Columbus, Ohio. Rocky and I just went to a FOP yesterday and they also make and sells their own wine. I am also looking into opening an FOP for when I retire (or sooner). I know the license is fairly cheap, but I don't know what the availibility is. It sounded to me, that keeping the department of Health happy was the hard part.


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## ffemt128 (Dec 16, 2011)

Runningwolf said:


> Julie I have heard great things about those wineries and have met or worked with a few of them. I am hoping to get down there to visit them some day soon. Have you gone to Doug's friends winery (Kavic winery). That would be a great one for you to talk to.



Julie, If you want me to get Dr Kavic's contact info for you I'm sure I could do that. He could be a wealth of information.


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## grapeman (Dec 16, 2011)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I would be curious as to what licenses i would need to start up a winery. I know all states will vary on this, but is there a general idea of the licensing you would need??


 
First you need a Basic Permit from the TTB - go the the link in post #2 I think it was. Early on you shoul also check with your local government such as town. You might need a variance depending on codes in place. Once they give you a preliminary OK, go to the state website and look for an information packet. That should tell you what you need. Here we deal with the State Liquor Authority and we need to fill out the "wholesaler winery " license which really makes little sense. That gives us the right to bypass the normal distribution network as we are our own distributor.
Good luck.


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## Midwest Vintner (Dec 16, 2011)

winemaker_3352 said:


> I would be curious as to what licenses i would need to start up a winery. I know all states will vary on this, but is there a general idea of the licensing you would need??



Somewhat depends on what you want to do. Like Grapeman posted, you need a license from the TTB first, but if you are doing a vineyard and want to do 85% Missouri product, you can choose to go by state regulations. I'm not exactly sure what all is involved down that road, but it is very different. See if you are doing that, you are state regulated vs federal regulated. Either way you need fed and state licenses, then if you want to have a tasting room (not just go through some distributor, which is a license again if you want to do that yourself) you will need a retail liqour license from the state too and you will need to have your premise bonded by an insurance company. Then there is county licenses and city (if applicable). If you want to look at what is needed, you can always stop by here.... 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16767


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## winemaker_3352 (Dec 16, 2011)

Midwest Vintner said:


> Somewhat depends on what you want to do. Like Grapeman posted, you need a license from the TTB first, but if you are doing a vineyard and want to do 85% Missouri product, you can choose to go by state regulations. I'm not exactly sure what all is involved down that road, but it is very different. See if you are doing that, you are state regulated vs federal regulated. Either way you need fed and state licenses, then if you want to have a tasting room (not just go through some distributor, which is a license again if you want to do that yourself) you will need a retail liqour license from the state too and you will need to have your premise bonded by an insurance company. Then there is county licenses and city (if applicable). If you want to look at what is needed, you can always stop by here....
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16767




Yeah - not sure if I was going to run a vineyard to start off - might be nice to eventually get a nice vineyard going - there are several vineyards in the area that have good grapes and a lot of them.


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## Julie (Dec 16, 2011)

Yes, Doug, I would be interested in his contact information.


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## harleydmn (Dec 16, 2011)

Does anyone have any info. on starting a winery in PA and what would be needed?


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## grapeman (Dec 16, 2011)

harleydmn said:


> Does anyone have any info. on starting a winery in PA and what would be needed?


 
Deep pockets to make life easier and then see the above posts for a start. Check with your state extension offices also.


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## midwestwine (Dec 16, 2011)

You just got to move to Iowa about $300.00 Year and your a winery!!!!


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## grapeman (Dec 16, 2011)

midwestwine said:


> You just got to move to Iowa about $300.00 Year and your a winery!!!!


 For the license, and then a few hundred thousand for a vineyard and winery if you watch your pennies.


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## rob (Dec 16, 2011)

Price of land has gone up in Iowa, however you could start one for not that much money. Thats if you grow your own grapes, if not 50.00 a year and your there


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## Midwest Vintner (Dec 17, 2011)

grapeman said:


> For the license, and then a few hundred thousand for a vineyard and winery if you watch your pennies.



Yeah, the vineyard is what gets expensive when you get into it. We buy all our fruit, so we don't have to have the land or the time and money to tend to it.


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## surlees (Dec 17, 2011)

If you go the vineyard route, count on spending $10,000 per acre for vines and trellising. Additional $ for equipment and sprays. Then 3-4 years before first harvest.

Fred


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## Midwest Vintner (Dec 17, 2011)

surlees said:


> If you go the vineyard route, count on spending $10,000 per acre for vines and trellising. Additional $ for equipment and sprays. Then 3-4 years before first harvest.
> 
> Fred



For those getting into trying a vineyard. Here is are some resources on costs and production:

http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/wsfeb01/bp.pdf

http://oardc.osu.edu/grapeweb/OGEN/07262006/CropEstimation06.pdf

http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/library/hort2/mf2370.pdf


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## UBB (Dec 17, 2011)

Probably a hard question to answer but:

What would you say the bare minimum # of producing vines one would have to have to make it worth while to start a commercial winery?


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## Midwest Vintner (Dec 18, 2011)

UBB said:


> Probably a hard question to answer but:
> 
> What would you say the bare minimum # of producing vines one would have to have to make it worth while to start a commercial winery?



Depends on how high prices are for everything, but I would think 8000+ bottles a year is about the minimum for a profit. It also depends alot on price per bottle. I'm quoting a $12-14 dollar a bottle average, so about $90,000+ per year in sales.


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## grapeman (Dec 19, 2011)

UBB said:


> Probably a hard question to answer but:
> 
> What would you say the bare minimum # of producing vines one would have to have to make it worth while to start a commercial winery?


 
It is very hard to figure that. The best way is with an in depth business plan to figure out costs, income and available investment. When you have the number of bottles needed for breakeven or more, then you can have a rough idea of the number of needed vines. In general figure 2-5 bottles per vine, depending again on a multitude of variables.


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## milkman (Dec 31, 2011)

Any of the pa guys find out what kind of hoops you have to jump threw to start a winery?


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## 1ChuckGauthier (Feb 28, 2012)

I,ve just read this post from beginning to end and I am convinced that no one is going to get me to go commercial, I am just enjoying my hobby, second child hood, to much. So far just fruit wines under my belt but am seriously considering some grape wines this fall, A friend in eastern Wa has a vineyard with two different grapes, she will have 1st commercial crop this fall and we would like to make some wines for our own use. I sure wish you all the best. Deezil it has been fun watching your posts. I have to share this wine hobby with this hobby also


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## tuumi (Mar 16, 2012)

Anyone know a phone number where I can actually talk to a person at the TTB to check the status of my application? If you do PM me. I started with the paper forms and probably should have done online instead but it's too late now. Every time I call I follow the operators instructions. I get to "Press 1 to check on the status of your application" I press the number and it says leave your name and number to get an application.  That's not what I'm looking for! I leave the message anyway and they haven't called me back. 

Any help you guys/gals can give would be appreciated.


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## grapeman (Mar 16, 2012)

How long ago did you submit it? If not 5-6 weeks, just be patient. It takes that long for them to get to you. After that amount of time, call them again and you will get a person and they will act like they just got to you, and want to set up a phone interview right away to process it.


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## tuumi (Mar 17, 2012)

grapeman said:


> How long ago did you submit it? If not 5-6 weeks, just be patient. It takes that long for them to get to you. After that amount of time, call them again and you will get a person and they will act like they just got to you, and want to set up a phone interview right away to process it.



It's been at least 2 months and I've called twice. Any idea what number I should call?
Thanks for the help. I'm really itching to get started.


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## grapeman (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't have any magic number. Just keep calling. Try and say operator when the phone answers. Sometimes you say agent or something similar, but most systems recognize when you are getting P'eed off and give you a real person.


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## winemaker_3352 (Mar 17, 2012)

grapeman said:


> I don't have any magic number. Just keep calling. Try and say operator when the phone answers. Sometimes you say agent or something similar, but most systems recognize when you are getting P'eed off and give you a real person.




Yeah that is like dialing 0 - IVR can't figure out what you are doing - so a real person gets on...


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## tuumi (May 10, 2012)

Just an update. I got an email address right away after a few phone calls. Two weeks later she began the process. A week after that she called asking for my soc #. The following day I was approved. I was expecting it to be more difficult. Now I just have to get the septic and well finished up and we'll be good to go.


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## Tess (Jun 26, 2013)

want to start one in my retirement in Indiana!! A winery restaurant!! I live in a huge log home up on a hill with big porches and big views!! I can see it set with all kinds of table, I even have a porch fire place. this place if perfect!! Im a published cook. Its my dream!! Gift shop, Wine classes and everything!!


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## grapeman (Jun 26, 2013)

Tess said:


> want to start one in my retirement in Indiana!! A winery restaurant!! I live in a huge log home up on a hill with big porches and big views!! I can see it set with all kinds of table, I even have a porch fire place. this place if perfect!! Im a published cook. Its my dream!! Gift shop, Wine classes and everything!!


 So I guess you will never retire..................... All that comes with huge time investments.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 27, 2013)

Especially a restaurant on top of a winery. That is like having 2 businesses. My dad was a cook for over 20 years with experience in many of the top restaurants in STL. When we were looking at starting the winery, he said, "We are not doing a restaurant!" lol


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## CCR (Jul 29, 2013)

*If in Michigan*

Here's a nice doc that has some good info on it.

http://www.grapes.msu.edu/pdf/requirementsWinery09.pdf


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## Pumpkinman (Jul 29, 2013)

Tess, now i'm intrigued, what is the name of your book?


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## Tess (Jul 29, 2013)

lol. This must have been the night I had to much dragons Blood. I do have a book in the works but I mean published as on some website recipe places.  I would love to start a winery and I do live in a large Log home up on a hill with views that would be perfect for it


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## Tess (Jul 29, 2013)

This is me. Yes Im riding a giant cupcake  http://allrecipes.com/recipe/bourbon-apple-cider-and-honey-glazed-pork-chops/
I have many recipes submitted at allrecipes but only a couple published and Kitchen approved. Its takes them forever they have so many submissions


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## Tess (Jul 29, 2013)

It wouldnt be a full menu restaurant. this is whats for dinner tonight kinda thing. there are several in my area that do really well. well all within 50 miles of me anyway


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## Tess (Jul 29, 2013)

Its just a dream anyway. If My husband has anything to say about it, it will never happens. No way he's gonna let stranger trample all over this place. lol


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## CCR (Jul 30, 2013)

So what's your best recipe with wine in it?


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## Tess (Aug 1, 2013)

I through wine in about everything I cook. 
Drunken Spaghetti is a family favorite. Boil the Spaghetti in water and a whole bottle of red wine. Julia's famous Beef Bourguignon but mostly a simple wine sauce.

Brown what ever meat your cooking in a a little oil and set aside.. I use this on venison cube steaks a lot but it works well with a lot of meats
Add 2 tbs of extra virgin olive oil to the same pan
add 1 Chopped large shallot 
2 cloves garlic, minced 
1/3 cup sweet red wine
squeeze in some fresh lemon and some times a litle zest
reduce by half add 2 tablespoons butter to finish then drizzle over meat before serving

for fish use a white wine


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## jdkelley (Nov 13, 2013)

On the subject of licensing for those of you still struggling with that, we just finished the process for our winery in WV. We actually used a law firm in VA that specializes in TTB compliance to get us through the process. It took us 2 1/2 months but was fairly straightforward with the law firm's help. The bond is one of the critical components.


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## stutzcattle (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a question on presses for you all. We are starting a winery in the next year, building will go up next fall, produce wine the year after, and are looking to start buying some equipment now.

What is the minimum size bladder press needed to get going on a 2,500 gallon winery? I'm looking at the Zambelli 300L press, but don't want something too small right out of the gate.

Thanks in advance.


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## jdkelley (Nov 15, 2013)

We are making about 5000 bottles of wine this year and I have a 40 liter bladder press. I think your 300 liter model will be more than enough.


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## grapeman (Nov 15, 2013)

It depends on the size of your average pressing. The larger presses are more difficult with very small batches as you need to inflate the bladder some before putting the grapes in. I have a 250 liter bladder press and it works well for me with about your planned size. (By the way it cost half as much as the Zambelli and is solid stainless). Here is a link to a supplier - I am no way endorsing this particular company they just have the pertinent information for your consideration. http://www.oescoinc.com/orchard-nur...n-vspi-x250-water-operated-bladder-press.html


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## wineforfun (Nov 15, 2013)

stutzcattle said:


> I have a question on presses for you all. We are starting a winery in the next year, building will go up next fall, produce wine the year after, and are looking to start buying some equipment now.
> 
> What is the minimum size bladder press needed to get going on a 2,500 gallon winery? I'm looking at the Zambelli 300L press, but don't want something too small right out of the gate.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Where are you located at in Nebraska?


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## stutzcattle (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys. Grapeman, I think that will work for us and at that price we can always upgrade as we get bigger. We are located 45 miles south of York, NE.


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## RotGut76 (Nov 16, 2013)

I followed grapeman's links to the TTB website. I found something interesting that I did not know about.

The "Custom Crush" seemed like an interesting concept. For those who may not know what it is:

You supply ALL the needed materials, for example, grapes/fruit, any other ingredients, bottle, labels ect, ect and transportation to and from and already bonded facility/working winery. They do all the "work" for you to your specs from beginning to end, fermentation to bottling. After that you are responsible for the rest.

You have to, of course, get certified through the proper gov't agencies first but it seems like a cheaper way to break into the wine industry.

Upon doing some research I found multiple places here on Long Island, NY that do this. Anyone familiar with Long Island knows that there are about 30 wineries in a 30 mile stretch of road.

Here is a little map: http://www.liwines.com/?page_id=14

There are 2 winemakers in Williamsburg Brooklyn that have started out this way and seem pretty successful. They have their wine made off site by an already established facility and sell it in Brooklyn.

http://bkwinery.com/

http://www.brooklynoenology.com/

Anyway, does anyone on this forum have any experience trying this or starting out a business in this way?


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## Hokapsig (Oct 9, 2014)

WOO HOO!!! We were awarded our TTB license FINALLY. The 65 days that the website stated took a little over 5 months. Now, it's on to the PA LCB to get the state license. After that, the scarey part starts.....


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## sour_grapes (Oct 9, 2014)

Congrats, Ho! Good luck with Pennsy. After that, knock 'em dead!


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## Hokapsig (Oct 9, 2014)

Thanks for the enthusiasm Paul. I realize that I have a LOT to learn. There is a local winery which is going out of business voluntarily and is looking to sell thier assets. I'm looking to pay about 40 cents on the dollar to grab some gently used equipment


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## Jazzmin21 (May 13, 2015)

If you want to start winery, invest in some good property. Check the wineries for sale in Sonoma and Napa. http://vineyardandwinerysales.com/inventory/


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## Hokapsig (May 15, 2015)

I got shot down by the PLCB due to my wife working at a hotel that has a liquor license (she had no dealing with the bar). PA has the most antiquated, unrealistic, unenforceable laws, which totally piss me off.... Not only can my wife not be a manager or co-owner, I can't have the winery at my house (my wife is co-owner) or invest in my winery (my wife is on the checking account). This does not pass the sanity test. She has nothing to do with the bar at her hotel, nor is she named on their PLCB account...... Very frustrating.......


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## GreginND (May 18, 2015)

That's just crazy. I would be talking to my legislators about this.


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## Hokapsig (May 19, 2015)

Shot down AGAIN by the PLCB due to my wife working for a hotel that has a liquor license. They don't care that she has nothing to do with the license at the hotel. My options are to have her quit her job (best solution) or to remove her name from the deed of the house, and from the winery, and from our joint bank account. Don't think she's gonna go for that one. I keep telling her we should just chuck it in and move to NC, buy 20 acres and put in a vineyard....


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## Hokapsig (May 26, 2015)

An unlikely event, after being prodded by ffemt, my wife has decided to relinguish her part of the winery to me for the tidy sum of $1. This gets her off of the ownership of the winery (this will appease the 1920's statutes of the PLCB). She will also let me become the manager of the winery (appeasement #2 of the PLCB). From a ruling cited by the PLCB, they will let her continue to own our house which contains the winery and let her continue to have her paychecks deposited into our joint home savings/checking account which will fund the winery. We hope this pleases the powers at the PLCB/PA state police or whoever grants liquor licenses in the state of PA.

Please note that the PLCB now ranks up there with telemarketers, banks and the cable company as my least favorite people to deal with....


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## Julie (May 26, 2015)

Hokapsig said:


> An unlikely event, after being prodded by ffemt, my wife has decided to relinguish her part of the winery to me for the tidy sum of $1. This gets her off of the ownership of the winery (this will appease the 1920's statutes of the PLCB). She will also let me become the manager of the winery (appeasement #2 of the PLCB). From a ruling cited by the PLCB, they will let her continue to own our house which contains the winery and let her continue to have her paychecks deposited into our joint home savings/checking account which will fund the winery. We hope this pleases the powers at the PLCB/PA state police or whoever grants liquor licenses in the state of PA.
> 
> Please note that the PLCB now ranks up there with telemarketers, banks and the cable company as my least favorite people to deal with....



So since she is stepping away from the whole licensing thing but her name will still be on the house, then you will be paying rent for her half of the house?


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## Hokapsig (May 26, 2015)

Isn't Mike calling you to do SOMETHING???????


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## GreginND (May 27, 2015)

I don't think I would even try in PA. You don't want to know how easy it is in ND at the state and even local.


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## Hokapsig (Jun 1, 2015)

today's update: I spoke with the PLCB attorneys today. I told them that I would buy my wife out of the winery and replace her as manager, She will still be co-owner of the house and our joint bank account. The attorneys didn't think that would fly. 

About 20 minutes after that phone call, the PLCB called me back. They said she COULD be a part owner of the house and the bank account due to a new clause in the regs. I then asked about the relevance of this law and was told "its an old law". I was then told that just because I complied with what the PLCB attorneys said, the Licensing folks may or may not agree with thier own attorneys. (left hand does not know or agree with the right hand). So now I have to re-do my operating agreement, fill out additional forms and re-interview because my state has archaic liquor laws. <smh>


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## Hokapsig (Jul 12, 2015)

update: my wife graciously sold me her 51% stake in the winery for $1. I had to re-do the paper work to make myself the manager of the winery in our house and had to resubmit the paperwork removing any mention of my wife.


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## GreginND (Jul 13, 2015)

One step at a time. We had d much easier time. Today was our opening day and it was a smashing success. Good luck!!!


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## Hokapsig (Jul 20, 2015)

so back to my saga.....

Winery sold to me by my wife, and we now have to provide documentation of the meeting minutes which we decided on doing this (Really PLCB??). Completed my dual employment form to say I have a job and will manage the winery. I was going to have to re-do the lease, BUT the PLCB decided to tell me about a clause that they decided to have about 10 years ago which says a spouse can be employed at a licensed establishment and own a house/bank account which is being used for the winery. HOWEVER.... she has to sign and notarize an affidavit that she will have no control or influence at the workings of the winery.

Hercules had easier quests than this one.....


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## Hokapsig (Jul 20, 2015)

*Success!*



GreginND said:


> One step at a time. We had d much easier time. Today was our opening day and it was a smashing success. Good luck!!!


 
Greg, just for giggles, how many cases did you start out with and where are you selling (own winery or at a business/farmer's market). How is business after a month?


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## GreginND (Jul 21, 2015)

We bottled our first 120 cases - 5 different fruit wines. Right now they are only available at the winery. We had a lot of people on opening day using only social media to spread the word. Last weekend was a little slower but picked up well near the end. So far I think it's a great start. Nearly everyone who has stopped in to taste wine has bought some.


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## Hokapsig (Aug 4, 2015)

UPDATE!!!!

We have been FINALLY granted our PLCB license. After a 2 year journey, we now have both our TTB and PLCB licenses. Now the fun starts.....


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## sour_grapes (Aug 4, 2015)

Waytogo, Ho!!


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## GreginND (Aug 4, 2015)

Life gets crazy. 3 weeks and it's been a whirlwind. Good though.


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## salcoco (Aug 7, 2015)

the first wine I would make should be dedicated to your wife. give it a fanciful name and put a picture of your wife on the label.


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## hardworkin (Aug 7, 2015)

Congrats! Next time I head towards Pittsburgh, I'll stop in for a taste!


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## Hokapsig (Aug 8, 2015)

salcoco said:


> the first wine I would make should be dedicated to your wife. give it a fanciful name and put a picture of your wife on the label.


 
LOL - Heck no!!! She's the root cause of the license delay and she can't have anything to do with the winery (except of course to drink the merchandise). 

Now comes the tedious issues of determining what you will charge for your wines, printed info about your wines for the customers, and getting additional labels approved.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 8, 2015)

Bill, I submitted one that came back rejected. I called and the girl said it was fine and resubmit. I did and three days later rejected again. I called again and got a different girl. She said my AVA was not eligible. I told her it was a legit one and she looked it up in her book and said nope. When I told her it's on every bottle around here since the 60's she looked in another book and she says "yup it is good" but in the book they're suppose to use it's not in it. I asked her if it's going to get rejected again when I resubmit she said don't worry about she was the one that sent it back. I had approval in two hours.


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## Jaymullin (Aug 11, 2015)

Do you have any tips for the design/construction of wineries to save energy/water down the road? 
I've heard of some things like epoxying floors to make cleaning easier or buying tanks that don't have hard-to-clean areas. Anything else that would help reduce water use?


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## Hokapsig (Aug 11, 2015)

I've heard of setting up the winery to run on gravity instead of pumps to save energy. Floor heating is supposed to be worthwhile to heat the winery. A friend of mine has solar panels on his roof (via a grant/assistance from the state of NJ). 

I think we will go and look at an old church from the 1880's and consider using it as the winery. The church would have to be dissassembled and moved, but the price would be right. It would also have to be de-sanctified by the church elders and have the religious items removed. But this would be a nice building with some character to have the winery.

We also ordered 10,000 labels for our bottles today.


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## Jaymullin (Aug 12, 2015)

That sounds like it would be a really nice building. I know some people who are in heritage buildings. They all seem to complain about "legacy issues" that makes installing things or operating more difficult, but I haven't heard one who would give up a beautiful old building to avoid those challenges.

There are a couple of gravity wineries in Niagara which are really interesting to visit. Like Stratus Vineyards, they don't pump any wine at all. 

I just heard today about a winery in an older building with a cold room they use to stabilize wines. Because the floor isn't well insulated the cold creeps along the concrete floors causing condensation and mold which results in a lot of water use to keep clean.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 12, 2015)

Bill, have you gone to Geneva Ohio yet looking at wineries?


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## Hokapsig (Aug 12, 2015)

not yet Dan, but we are looking at next weekend, if you're off and want to join us....


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## Runningwolf (Aug 12, 2015)

I would love to but not available, sorry. Debonne, Ferrante, Harpersfield, but South River is the one not to miss. It is an old church and is just beautiful. He also owns a distillery next door.


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## Hokapsig (Aug 17, 2015)

We went and checked out a church from the 1860s to use as a winery. The building is about 40 by 60 and is currently aluminum sided and does have an attic and stained glass windows. 

We would have to purchase land in my area (no small or inexpensive feat), purchase the church, disassemble it, transport it to our area, reassemble it and then modify it to a winery.


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## Hokapsig (Oct 7, 2015)

On this past Sunday, we officially became a winery. We obtained a farmer's market permit to sell wine and did so very successfully (our daily take exceeded my expectations). My wife (who got a new job that did not have a PLCB permit attached to it) made a mulled wine and offered samples. It was a big hit. We will be selling again this weekend. the only glitch was that the satellite winery on the premises was upset that we were selling and their rep came out and demanded our permit and threatened to call the state police because he had not signed our permit (PLCB said he no right to sign nor is he required to sign). This caused 4 of our customers to hurry up and purchase wine before the state police got there (we found out they were never called).


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## sour_grapes (Oct 7, 2015)

Congrats, Ho! May this be your first sales of many more to come.


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 8, 2015)

Sorry you had to deal with a jerk, but it sounds like it was very successful despite their efforts.


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## Norske (Oct 8, 2015)

..."We obtained a farmer's market permit..."

This is not yet legal in my state but would like to hear from those where it is legal so we can perhaps get our state legislature to change some laws.


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## Hokapsig (Oct 10, 2015)

Well, being that we did so well last Sunday, the eldest brother of the 3 farmers pitched a fit. It seems that our booth did so well, no one wanted to go inside to purchase from the other winery, causing the brother to lose his 30% commision per bottle (we were there at the request of the sister). So due to the disfunction of thier family, we will not be selling there anymore until they realize that 2 wineries on site are better than one. 

So instead of selling this weekend, ffemt and I are going down to NC to pick muscadines. When life deals you lemons, make skeeter pee....


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## grapeman (Oct 10, 2015)

From my experiences two wineries on site are not always better than one. I have dealt with markets a lot and work to keep harmony with the other wineries there with me but I must say that sales are never as high when there are multiple wineries there. There is a finite amount of potential wine sales and more wineries dilutes each of the vendor's sales. I used to feel that it helped to have more as customers were more likley to find a wine they like and leave happy. More often than not however they just buy from the first winery they stop at. This is coming from a man who does 5 markets per week all summer.


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## GreginND (Oct 11, 2015)

We can't do farmers markets but I suspect it is a lot different than having close by wineries for a wine trail. The latter seems to bring more customers and people are comping specifically for wine tasting. Most folks aren't going to a farmers market to try and buy wine.


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## tlrigd (Jun 2, 2016)

*Help*

Hello! I am new here and have never posted on a forum a before. I hope I am doing this in the correct way. I have really enjoyed reading through all of the posts. My husband and I have been very interested in starting a small winery. We are getting closer to making that a reality! We currently live in northwest Ohio. We have decided that a move is in order. So we thought we could ask you lovely people if anyone could give examples of states that would welcome someone becoming a new resident and would be very friendly towards a new winery business. Thank you for any information.


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## Runningwolf (Jun 2, 2016)

I would suggest moving in an area with a lot of other wineries. This will increase your sales if they're part of a wine trail plus you'll pick up a lot of tourist trade. Remember in some states you can sell your wine in grocery stores unlike PA where you can only sell in State Stores.


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## DoctorCAD (Jun 2, 2016)

Northern Georgia.

Starting a winery, an easy way to turn $1,000,000 into $100,000.


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 2, 2016)

Virginia is a very wine friendly state. But land isn't cheap - especially here in Northern VA, near DC.


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## tlrigd (Jun 3, 2016)

Thank you for the reply. Northern Georgia is one of the areas we really like. Do you consider Georgia small business/winery friendly? How are the wineries in the area with supporting/mentoring other wineries? We are really trying to do our homework without rushing things. Resources have been pretty hard to come by. Thank you!


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## tlrigd (Jun 3, 2016)

Virginia is a lovely state. We would definitely not be interested in the DC area.


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## Hokapsig (Jun 4, 2016)

I can only advise to stay out of PA, as our laws are archaic and the state is none too friendly to new wineries. I am currently researching NC regulations for wineries, as life might intervene and I will need a real job for a few more years until I can focus full time on a winery. Right now we have a hobby that makes some money on the weekends.


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## hounddawg (Jul 7, 2016)

ok I know this is an old post but to my thinking everybody must know more now then they did back then
first off I lean toward country fruit wines , since in single i'm wondering if I cut a breeze way between 2 bedrooms to convert to a winery, I already have a 3 basin commercial sink and a commercial prep table both of course 304 type stainless steel or food grade stainless, I use to build food type stores in shopping malls so I messed with many health inspectors both city an state, I know all about using fiberglass panels or FRP on ceiling and all walls and lunouam on the floors with drain in middle of each room, , or would it be better to split my land into 2 deeds and put a metal building on my back acre of course I'd have to insulate run HVAC and so on, which runs into very expensive, but would protect my home,,, I've got several local politicians and several multi-millionaire row crop farmers, pushing me to go commercial so I would make more and sell it.right now I sell nothing at all but I do trade for new Italian carboys, fruit concentrate from home winery, but they want me to go from 12 carboys and 1 racking/mixing/back sweetening 6.5 gallon carboy to at the very least, tripling every thing at the minimal end. I really have no interest in this but my nephew had a cancer that had only ever been seen 66 times now 67 times they had to make a corroded artery for his neck 4 inches long and he can never lift heavy things every again without the risk of the artery busting loose. so i'm thinking since I got a following of local politicians and row crop farmers with the smallest owning 8000 acres. now don't get me wrong I've never been around them high dollar clicks, but it's hard for me to see a multi-millionaire with hat in hand standing in my driveway asking if they could be in my inner wine click, heck the only click I ever had was when pulling a bead on a rabbit or deer, I stay away from people like that, I've worked my entire life to remain a plain old country hillbilly, but for my nephew I guess I can do what is not in my comfort zone, these people are like me they have no trained pallet, they don't drink dry or semi-dry wines and they prefer fruit wines as opposed to grape wines,, most wanting muscadine and elderberry wines followed closely by peach, then blackberry strawberry wines.. so I'd like to know the pro's an con's of a move like this I was wishing to just slowly drift thru life, but for my nephew age 28 I feel lead to help set him up a business for him that don't consist of heavy or tons of pressure he's a very good kid, polite say's yes ma'am no ma'am,, yes sir an no sir, does not lie, tries to help people whose down on there luck, just an all around nice kid,,,,
Dawg::






grapeman said:


> Wade created the subforum, but no posts here yet so I made this one for the topic to show up. Now all we need is to fill in a bunch of stuff.
> 
> I will comment here some as I get time as I took the route over the last few years.


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## Hokapsig (Jul 12, 2016)

Hound,

It was my intention to start slow and small and keep my "learning mistakes" to a $$ minimum. From dealing with the feds, the state and the logistics of operating a winery (with help from family and friends, though many times by yourself), it takes a bunch of time and planning/thinking ahead. We have had compliments that as a new winery, our wines are good tasting. Many of the other wineries have told us that taste is a big hurdle to overcome before dipping your toe into the commercial waters.


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## audmkamp (Oct 28, 2016)

TTB will not let you have a winery in your home, even if you sequester room one off from the rest of the house. You need to have a stand alone structure.



hounddawg said:


> ok I know this is an old post but to my thinking everybody must know more now then they did back then
> first off I lean toward country fruit wines , since in single i'm wondering if I cut a breeze way between 2 bedrooms to convert to a winery, I already have a 3 basin commercial sink and a commercial prep table both of course 304 type stainless steel or food grade stainless, I use to build food type stores in shopping malls so I messed with many health inspectors both city an state, I know all about using fiberglass panels or FRP on ceiling and all walls and lunouam on the floors with drain in middle of each room, , or would it be better to split my land into 2 deeds and put a metal building on my back acre of course I'd have to insulate run HVAC and so on, which runs into very expensive, but would protect my home,,, I've got several local politicians and several multi-millionaire row crop farmers, pushing me to go commercial so I would make more and sell it.right now I sell nothing at all but I do trade for new Italian carboys, fruit concentrate from home winery, but they want me to go from 12 carboys and 1 racking/mixing/back sweetening 6.5 gallon carboy to at the very least, tripling every thing at the minimal end. I really have no interest in this but my nephew had a cancer that had only ever been seen 66 times now 67 times they had to make a corroded artery for his neck 4 inches long and he can never lift heavy things every again without the risk of the artery busting loose. so i'm thinking since I got a following of local politicians and row crop farmers with the smallest owning 8000 acres. now don't get me wrong I've never been around them high dollar clicks, but it's hard for me to see a multi-millionaire with hat in hand standing in my driveway asking if they could be in my inner wine click, heck the only click I ever had was when pulling a bead on a rabbit or deer, I stay away from people like that, I've worked my entire life to remain a plain old country hillbilly, but for my nephew I guess I can do what is not in my comfort zone, these people are like me they have no trained pallet, they don't drink dry or semi-dry wines and they prefer fruit wines as opposed to grape wines,, most wanting muscadine and elderberry wines followed closely by peach, then blackberry strawberry wines.. so I'd like to know the pro's an con's of a move like this I was wishing to just slowly drift thru life, but for my nephew age 28 I feel lead to help set him up a business for him that don't consist of heavy or tons of pressure he's a very good kid, polite say's yes ma'am no ma'am,, yes sir an no sir, does not lie, tries to help people whose down on there luck, just an all around nice kid,,,,
> Dawg::


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## havlikn (Oct 28, 2016)

I have been to a winery in Waukesha wi area that has a winery in the basement of their house. They are separated by a locked door but they run a thriving business


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## audmkamp (Oct 28, 2016)

Oh wow. Was just relaying what an approving agent told me!


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## havlikn (Oct 28, 2016)

Yeah I couldn't believe their set up. But it was considered separate so they got it to fly.


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## Hokapsig (Oct 28, 2016)

audmkamp said:


> TTB will not let you have a winery in your home, even if you sequester room one off from the rest of the house. You need to have a stand alone structure.



Nothing is more false. My fully permitted TTB and State winery resides in my basement, though I am quickly outgrowing the downstairs.


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## Stressbaby (Oct 29, 2016)

In Missouri you can do this but it has to be permanently walled off from the rest of the home.


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## hounddawg (Oct 29, 2016)

To each and everyone of ya'll i give my utmost thank to all here.., 
but from reading an going thru all the so called rules, i have made the astute dissection to try to fill the grand canyon with taffy due to the fact of that would be much easier to do... thanks everyone for the information,,
DAWG::















audmkamp said:


> TTB will not let you have a winery in your home, even if you sequester room one off from the rest of the house. You need to have a stand alone structure.


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## Hokapsig (Feb 15, 2017)

Well, a new year, a new update. 

We finished 2016 with a flourish and figured that we had sold almost 400 gallons of wine and gave away about 90 gallons in tasters. We have since purchased stainless steel VC tanks of the 200 and 300 liter sizes to expand production. We are quickly outgrowing our basement and my car is no longer garage kept as pallets of bottles are stored there waiting for filling.

We started off 2017 with the generous help of friends and through 6 weeks of the year, we are already over 50% of last years total business. My wife has quit her job and is now a full time cellar rat/business manager/go getter for the winery. We have purchased a pickup truck to transport our goods to market and to pick up production materials (and not having to impose on ffemt for the use of his truck which we greatly appreciated). We have come up with mulled wine recipes which caused us to sell out of 140 gallons of Cabernet and that became a crowd favorite. We now have a "following". 

Though we are very busy this winter, we plan to ease up on the summer and enjoy our wines and prep for fall. My wife will be selling our wines at farmer's markets on Thursdays and Saturdays, with occasional bigger shows sprinkled in. We are still learning the business, but have made BIG leaps over the past year. My team that helps to sell wine is confident and consumer driven. We are often told we are the nicest winery with the best tasting wines, and our sales appear to reflect that.

But now taxes are the issue and we have met with a professional accountant for assistance. They are worth every penny and hopefully will keep me out of jail (though I will blame everything on my wife, as its hockey season and I want the TV). We are now looking at purchasing acreage and putting up a winery building. My wife has seen that the business is now sustainable.

We look forward to further reports as the year progresses. We had one glitch where our older corker was putting a crease in the corks and the bottles were leaking when customers stored them on their side. We recorked about 20 cases and that issue has been corrected with the purchase of a new Italian corker.


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## ibglowin (Feb 15, 2017)

Fantastic news Bill! Congratulations all the way around. All your hard work is finally paying off!


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 15, 2017)

Great news. I've really enjoyed following your journey.


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## Julie (Feb 15, 2017)

Congrats Bill!


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 15, 2017)

Are you permitted to sell to a NC resident (formerly from Irwin)?


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## Hokapsig (Feb 15, 2017)

Well, since you're from Irwin and I'm from Irwin, we obviously can do this. In fact, ffemt and I are coming to NC next weekend to Winston Salem to trim vines in the vineyard in Lewisville. Hope to see you there.


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## grapeman (Feb 16, 2017)

Hope everything keeps going well for you and your wife there. It is a lot of work but can be very satisfying.


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## Hokapsig (Feb 16, 2017)

We like it as much work as it is, and we are now looking at 13 acres to put a winery building on. Might as well go all in. In PA, we are now (as a limited winery) allowed to sell any alcoholic beverage as long as its produced in PA. Distilled spirits, wine and beer, which sounds like a bar to me. We would like to do craft spirits and IPA beers and offer chocolates, gourmet pretzels and tapas as snacks, but that will require another license.


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## WilliamSYKES (Feb 17, 2017)

I currently farm 45 acres of organic blueberries in southeastern nc and I am looking at expanding my operation by hopefully 50 acres and also establishing a organic vineyard and a organic winery in the next few years. I have been looking at the needed permits from the state and federal gov. One question I did have is some one told me that each recipe had to be submitted to the FDA for approval before it was released. Is this true or were they doing a good job at confusing a newbie to the Commercial wine business?


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## Hokapsig (Feb 17, 2017)

No. Fruit wines are exempt (from what the TTB told me as even they were confused). each LABEL has to be approved from the TTB. I did do a step by step process on how I made my Cranberry Pomegranate wine, but that was just putting down the recipe and writing the steps. Not a big deal.

Let me know if you have an extra drum of blueberry juice. I'd be happy to buy a drum or so from you....


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## WilliamSYKES (Feb 17, 2017)

Ok that clears a lot of confusion up. Ill see what I can do about getting you some berries. I did read your thread on getting your label approved for your cranberry pomegranate wine. Sounds like its gonna be a long and drawn out process.


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## salcoco (Feb 18, 2017)

if your wine is a straight varietal or fruit no formula approval is required. if a blend is made or flavored wine is made a formula approval is required. in all cases the label must be approved. all approval come from the TTB. FDA involvement is once the winery is established periodic visits by the FDA rep will be made as wine is considered food and inspection of the premise is required. my experience in running a winery for 5 years.

some rule changes have occurred to reduce the burden so prudent reading of the regulations should occur, don't use gossip as your guide.


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## WilliamSYKES (Feb 19, 2017)

Does the TTB have the regulations in a format I can download and read? I've tried to find it on their page but it keeps popping up as site unavailable


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## salcoco (Feb 19, 2017)

try ttb.gov i believe the regs are 24 CFR and 27 CFR.


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## Hokapsig (Feb 19, 2017)

salcoco said:


> if your wine is a straight varietal or fruit no formula approval is required. if a blend is made or flavored wine is made a formula approval is required. in all cases the label must be approved. all approval come from the TTB. FDA involvement is once the winery is established periodic visits by the FDA rep will be made as wine is considered food and inspection of the premise is required. my experience in running a winery for 5 years.
> 
> some rule changes have occurred to reduce the burden so prudent reading of the regulations should occur, don't use gossip as your guide.



Blends need no formula approval if blended pre-fermentation.


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## NorCal (Feb 19, 2017)

Great thread. Subscribed.


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## cgallamo (Feb 20, 2017)

What varieties are you planning to grow? As I'm sure you know growing vinifera grapes in the SE is next to impossible.


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## WilliamSYKES (Feb 21, 2017)

Mostly Muscadines. The research farm not far from me has a variety that they have been experimenting with and they say it's done well. Muscadines grow really well in my area. There are literally thousands of wild vines and there are several farms that grow them for a large winery here. About 40-50 miles north of me vinifera grows well. I actually today was given access to about three acres of them for free.


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## Graves (Jan 15, 2018)

shoebiedoo said:


> I've done some checking on this here in Columbus, Ohio. Rocky and I just went to a FOP yesterday and they also make and sells their own wine. I am also looking into opening an FOP for when I retire (or sooner). I know the license is fairly cheap, but I don't know what the availibility is. It sounded to me, that keeping the department of Health happy was the hard part.



I would like to do this in central Ohio also. Did you get your winery started?


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## Graves (Jan 15, 2018)

Runningwolf said:


> Bill, have you gone to Geneva Ohio yet looking at wineries?



What’s special about wineries in Geneva Ohio?


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