# wine making kit problems. what to do. what to do...



## shanek17 (May 5, 2012)

hey guys i finally got up the nerve to start my first wine kit! its been real warm lately in ontario canada so i thought it would be good to get my wine started, but iv been havin some issuses about it. i have a Vino iltaliano 4 week barolo red wine kit and the kit instructions say that the hydrometer reading should be around SG - 1.080 - 1.090. And i took my hydrometer reading and mine was well below that, around 1.066-1.068. im confused as to what has happened here. my hydrometer is calibrated to 68 and the must was close enough to this temperature. so now im thinking maybe i added too much water and diluted the juice and sugar. the instructions said top up your primary pail to 23 liters. so i googled searched it and many sources said thats roughly 6 gallons. i looked on my carboy it says 6 gal. and 23 liters, so i thought thats perfect and topped it up with water. but now iv been reading about these different standards for gallons. like imperial gallons for canadians and the US has their own standard. but how would i know which one my wine kit is talking about. it just says top up with water to 23liters. 

i checked my chart paper that came with my hydrometer and SG - 1.065 will yield alcohol 8.57%. which seems kind of low compared to most bottles iv botten but maybe it wouldnt be too bad to have a low % wine. what do you all think, is it worth it to add raisins or sugar to increase it or should i leave it alone. since this is my first batch i dont wanna monkey around wit it too much. also its been 48 hours into fermentation and its off to a great start!


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## PCharles (May 5, 2012)

You're correct, 1.068 is too low. Are you sure this isn't a 5 gallon kit? If possible, call kit maker to discuss low SG.


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## shanek17 (May 5, 2012)

PCharles said:


> You're correct, 1.068 is too low. Are you sure this isn't a 5 gallon kit? If possible, call kit maker to discuss low SG.



oh yea i forgot to mention i tried calling the wine kit owners many times today with no luck. And now its the weekend so they are closed, so i thought i would talk to you guys about it. like if i was going to add something to it to increase the sugar. shouldnt i be getting on that pretty soon? like i said the kits been going for 48 hours with lots of activity because of our warm weather. so i thought if i was going to add sugar it should proba ly be as soon as possible. or correct me if im wrong, i just wanted to follow the kit instructions but im getting a bit steered of course here. 

im just reading the side of the box and it says 1.3 US gal (15.5 lbs) so now im assuming this is an american standard wine kit...


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## Rocky (May 5, 2012)

The best time to add the sugar would have been when you started the kit. That time has passed, so adding it now is one alternative to increase alcohol or you could add grain alcohol at the end. If you want to add it now, take an accurate SG reading and add sugar to increase the SG by 0.025 or so. I would dissolve the sugar in some of the wine to avoid adding any additional water.


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## Dugger (May 5, 2012)

It's quite unlikely that your SG is that low based on what you've posted. 23 liters is 23 liters in both Canadian and US lingo so that's not your problem. I suspect you may not have stirred up the juice and water well enough ( they don't mix well so you have to stir very hard) and your reading was on a watered down part of the mix. I suspect that if you take another reading now after it going 48 hours you will be close to your first reading since fermentation will have mixed it well by now.
I think you will be just fine leaving it do its thing. 
Good luck.


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## g8keeper (May 5, 2012)

i've also been hearing on this forum that some of these carboys nowadays, depending on whether they are from china or italy, that they are not necessarily accurate on thier volume....before you do your next batch, you might want to take a known accurate, in your case, 1 litre container, and fill it 23 times with water, pouring it into your carboy and marking that point on the outside of your carboy....but like the previous poster also stated, your batch may not have been thoroughly mixed....it could be a combination of taking a reading a reading on a thin part of the mix, as well as perhaps a bit too much water due to the actual carboy capacity...


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## rjb222 (May 5, 2012)

posted to another thread.


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## shanek17 (May 5, 2012)

Dugger said:


> It's quite unlikely that your SG is that low based on what you've posted. 23 liters is 23 liters in both Canadian and US lingo so that's not your problem. I suspect you may not have stirred up the juice and water well enough ( they don't mix well so you have to stir very hard) and your reading was on a watered down part of the mix. I suspect that if you take another reading now after it going 48 hours you will be close to your first reading since fermentation will have mixed it well by now.
> I think you will be just fine leaving it do its thing.
> Good luck.



i thought that 23 liters US is approximate 6 gal whereas 23 liters canadian is 5 imperial gallons?

i was hopeing it was just not mixed as i did not initially mix it for first hydrometer reading. but i just took a couple more hydro samples and its still sitting at 1.068. so i think that narrows it down to my carboy. my carboy does say 23 liters and 6 gallons though but maybe like the post below, suggested that it is not truly 23 liters. By the way my carboy is the smooth glass made in meixco kind and i picked it up used from a LHBS. i read in another post that the older smooth mexican carboys are true 23 liters, and since mine is a used smooth mexican carboy i assumed thats what i had. well i dont know what to do. I may just leave it alone and add grain alcohol later. even if i wanted to add sugar there isnt enough room for a decent amount in the carboy.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2012)

shanek17 said:


> i thought that 23 liters US is approximate 6 gal whereas 23 liters canadian is 5 imperial gallons?
> 
> i was hopeing it was just not mixed as i did not initially mix it for first hydrometer reading. but i just took a couple more hydro samples and its still sitting at 1.068. so i think that narrows it down to my carboy. my carboy does say 23 liters and 6 gallons though but maybe like the post below, suggested that it is not truly 23 liters. By the way my carboy is the smooth glass made in meixco kind and i picked it up used from a LHBS. i read in another post that the older smooth mexican carboys are true 23 liters, and since mine is a used smooth mexican carboy i assumed thats what i had. well i dont know what to do. I may just leave it alone and add grain alcohol later. even if i wanted to add sugar there isnt enough room for a decent amount in the carboy.


 
I would think this indicates a problem with mixing the water and juice. If the SG is _still _at 1.068 and it has been fermenting for two days, it probably started at something higher so my _new guess_ is that you did not mix it well enough and it probably was close to 1.090 or so when you started. I think your best bet is to let it be and ferment it to dry (SG 0.992 or so) and go from there.


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## g8keeper (May 5, 2012)

shanek17 said:


> i thought that 23 liters US is approximate 6 gal whereas 23 liters canadian is 5 imperial gallons?
> 
> i was hopeing it was just not mixed as i did not initially mix it for first hydrometer reading. but i just took a couple more hydro samples and its still sitting at 1.068. so i think that narrows it down to my carboy. my carboy does say 23 liters and 6 gallons though but maybe like the post below, suggested that it is not truly 23 liters. By the way my carboy is the smooth glass made in meixco kind and i picked it up used from a LHBS. i read in another post that the older smooth mexican carboys are true 23 liters, and since mine is a used smooth mexican carboy i assumed thats what i had. well i dont know what to do. I may just leave it alone and add grain alcohol later. even if i wanted to add sugar there isnt enough room for a decent amount in the carboy.


 
well if it is an older mexican that you picked up used, then it probably is a truer 6 gallon....in any case, as you stated, you did not stir it to mix together....well there you....that is your problem....you see, the concentrate, being heavier and denser than the water, will settle to the bottom if not thoroughly mixed, and where are you taking your reading from???....the top, therefore you are getting a weaker reading....imho, i would suggest sanitizing your wine thief, if you have one , and your stirrer, drawing out some of your must to be replaced afterwards, and giving your batch a thorough stir to mix the water and concentrate, take your reading, and pour the balance back into your carboy....just make sure the container you put the wine you took out is sanitized prior to filling it....you are still early enough in your fermentation that adding o2 will not hurt while you give your batch a vigorous stir...


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## cpfan (May 5, 2012)

1. Based on the picture...this is a Mexican carboy. Probably still not perfectly 23 litres, but closer than the Italian carboys.

2. There is no such thing as 23 litres Canadian and 23 litres US. 23 Litres is 23 litres. One of the benefits of metric, as opposed to the confusion that is gallons.

3. 23 litres EQUALS 6 US gallons which also EQUALS 5 Imperial (or Canadian) gallons. They are all basically the same volume. (Which I already pointed out in post #2 of Shane's other thread.)

4. The real problem here is that shanek17 started the kit in a fairly full carboy. Therefore it is very difficult to mix the concentrate and water. Therefore a very poor initial sg reading. Now, as shown in the pic, the wine is coming out of the carboy during what should be considered primary fermentation.

FYI, Shane's other thread is here. http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum...-kit-worried-about-overflow-31227/#post345743

*What to do?* As suggested in the other thread...get it into a proper primary fermenter (ie pail) or two vessels that can hold the volume with some head space. Then when the sg is below 1.010, put it back into a carboy (23 litre or 5 Imp gallon or 6 US gallon - they're all the same).

Steve


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## rjb222 (May 5, 2012)

CPfan has things right.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2012)

I don't see wine coming out of the carboy in the picture. I see a large funnel with cheese cloth over the top to prevent any dirt or beasties from getting to the wine. I would not take it from the carboy at this point unless and until there is a problem with wine bubbling into the funnel. The opening of the carboy and the funnel seem to be allowing the gas to escape with no issues. In a few days, the SG will be down to the 1.020-1.010 range, at which time I would attach an airlock in place of the funnel.


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## cpfan (May 5, 2012)

Rocky said:


> I don't see wine coming out of the carboy in the picture. I see a large funnel with cheese cloth over the top to prevent any dirt or beasties from getting to the wine. I would not take it from the carboy at this point unless and until there is a problem with wine bubbling into the funnel. The opening of the carboy and the funnel seem to be allowing the gas to escape with no issues. In a few days, the SG will be down to the 1.020-1.010 range, at which time I would attach an airlock in place of the funnel.


Good point. I thought his other thread (complaining about wine bubbling out of the air lock) was from Yesterday. But it's from two days ago, so the stong bubbling MAY have died off.

But if it's still bubbling into the funnel, shane may wish to move to larger volume vessel(s).

One thing for sure...next time Shane should use a real primary. It allows proper mixing/stirring, an accurate sg reading, and no overflow.

Steve


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## shanek17 (May 5, 2012)

cpfan said:


> 1. Based on the picture...this is a Mexican carboy. Probably still not perfectly 23 litres, but closer than the Italian carboys.
> 
> 2. There is no such thing as 23 litres Canadian and 23 litres US. 23 Litres is 23 litres. One of the benefits of metric, as opposed to the confusion that is gallons.
> 
> ...



okay i just finished measuring and filling up the carboy and it was pretty darn close to 23 liters so my carboy is a true 6 gallons, which is nice to know. All of you who mentioned mixing up the batch to get a good reading, thanks for that. because the kit instructions do not mention thorughly mixing before taking a SG sample. although now that its been explained it makes alot of sense. so i got out my cordless drill put in the mixing tool and gave it a good mixing for maybe 5 minutes total. i then took a sample and the results were the same, around 1.068. so i thought maybe the denser sugary mixture is still sitting at the bottom of carboy, so i siphoned off a gallon or so off the bottom carboy into a pail, took a couple more samples and now im gettin even lower readings! the hydrometer said it was 1.064. so i dont know whats goin on.

i called the store owner and he didnt have much to say. he said its fine and just leave it alone. he also said he is using the same kit but he tops the kit up with 19 liters of water, he says this makes like 24 finished bottles instead of the regular 30bottles. He also mentioned the kit instructions are just guidelines and to protect the company. so maybe my specific kit isnt meant to be a high yielding alcohol.


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## shanek17 (May 5, 2012)

yea that funnel worked perfect for collecting the bubble overflow but it seems to have died down now. i will just leave it in the carboy and let it do its thing. im still confused as to whats going on with my hydrometer readings and what the alcohol content will roughly be for this wine, im pretty sure my hydrometer works accurately, iv only had it for a couple months.


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## rjb222 (May 5, 2012)

i called the store owner and he didnt have much to say. he said its fine and just leave it alone. he also said he is using the same kit but he tops the kit up with 19 liters of water, he says this makes like 24 finished bottles instead of the regular 30bottles. He also mentioned the kit instructions are just guidelines and to protect the company. so maybe my specific kit isnt meant to be a high yielding alcohol.[/QUOTE]

There are a couple of things for future reference here. First find a store that is willing to help and explain their goods. When a customer comes to me I take the time to find out their tastes, experience,I'll ask them what they have for equipment. This is not to sell them what they do not need it is to make sure they are successful and will enjoy the fruits of their labor. I will then make recommendations as to what they need to brew a quality product. I hate the statement that home brewed taste there is no need for that if done properly. Second I would definitely be looking for a different kit. If you can not brew the twenty three liters that the instructions say with out being below the recommended SG from the start then these are not good quality kits.


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## Dugger (May 6, 2012)

shanek17 said:


> ... All of you who mentioned mixing up the batch to get a good reading, thanks for that. because the kit instructions do not mention thorughly mixing before taking a SG sample. although now that its been explained it makes alot of sense. so i got out my cordless drill put in the mixing tool and gave it a good mixing for maybe 5 minutes total. i then took a sample and the results were the same, around 1.068. so i thought maybe the denser sugary mixture is still sitting at the bottom of carboy, so i siphoned off a gallon or so off the bottom carboy into a pail, took a couple more samples and now im gettin even lower readings! the hydrometer said it was 1.064. so i dont know whats goin on.
> l.



What's probably going on is that you started out at about 1.085 or a little higher and with the fermentation that has taken place until you have taken your new readings, the SG has dropped, as it should, from the guesstimate 1.085 start to the 1.064-68 reading you now have. I wouldn't be too concerned about the two different readings you got; you could have had less CO2 in the second sample from racking and affected the reading.


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## cpfan (May 6, 2012)

Shane...

I think that you could not mix the concentrate & water properly because you started it in the carboy. As Dugger suggested, the original sg may have been more like 1.085.

Once the fermentation started, the concentrtae & water is mixed by the action of the fermentation. We know this happened because your wine was coming out of the airlock. The sg droppoing to 1.064-1.068 in 3 days seems reasonable (although I don't measure daily).

Translation...nothing to worry about.

Steve


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## shanek17 (May 6, 2012)

yea thanks everyone you have all been helpful at narrowing this down. and i think my initial SG reading was off. probably from not mixing the kit well enough. the kit did have me pour in the bentonite and "stir vigiourisly for 1 minute" but im pretty sure i took my SG reading before i stirred in the bentonite. and from the sounds of it, these kits need a very good mixing for the batch to even out entirely. So i dont think that that vigiours 1 minuite stir would have sufficed. So what exactly constitutes a vigiours stir? how long and what method of tool used?


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## cpfan (May 6, 2012)

shanek17 said:


> So what exactly constitutes a vigiours stir? how long and what method of tool used?


Some people use a stirring tool on a drill. The most common brand is probably the Fizz-X.

I just use the big stirring spoon that came with my original equipment kit. I have a big primary (11 US gallons roughly for a 6 US gallon kit or 45 litres for a 23 litre kit). This allows me to get a good vortex going. This mixes everything up and incorporates some air into the must that the yeast requires.

How long? I'm not sure.

Steve


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