# Paper Chromatography Test



## Stevelaz (May 17, 2017)

I did my first paper chromatography test yesterday and wanted to see what you guys thought of it. I know its early but i wanted to practice and get an initial base reading. It went pretty smooth, however i had a hard time getting the tubes filled exactly to the mark on them. So what i did was what I saw on a video. After i made my 1 inch marks for my samples, i then made another mark 1/4 inch on each side of each mark. I then filled each sample between the marks. Im thinking the 1/4 was to much and maybe 1/8 on each side would be enough? 

How much of a sample do you really need? If you filled the tube to the mark on them, that is not much at all...

The sample on the very end is the chardonnay that i did not add mlf. You can see the difference, the reds look like they are moving along...


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## CryptoStorm (May 17, 2017)

Looks like you did perfect


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## Stevelaz (May 17, 2017)

Glad to hear that! By the way how do you guys store the chemicals and paper for the kit? I put the solution from the gallon jug back into its container and cleaned the jug. Was thinking of just putting everything back into the jug....


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## Boatboy24 (May 17, 2017)

The solution that I use in the jug remains in the jug. I add a little next time around to 'top up'.


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## Johnd (May 17, 2017)

Looks like you did just fine. I don't get too picky about filling the pipettes just right, 1/4-1/3 works just fine. Looks like the reds are moving along a bit.


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## ibglowin (May 17, 2017)

Looks like you can cut back on the sample size. this is one example of less is more so to speak. A couple small dabs is all you need.


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2017)

Well I just did my 1st test as well. And it ain't pretty. Learned a quick lesson about using an eraser on the paper. Which is: Don't do it! That's all those extra blue dots across the bottom and the smudges on the right side. Also dropped a cab grape skin right where "Rosè" was intended. And mistakenly dabbed acid EVERYWHERE misreading instructions. Just a hot mess. 

Probably shouldn't have rushed and actually did a little thing called research. Regardless I can still read where it needs to be read. It's actually only three samples that I added ML marked on the bottom. The others are just kits tested for the fun of it. 



ITS RUDE TO LAUGH! 
But call me crazy, it looks to me like the malo in all three of those samples is almost finished converting. MLB was only added less than 2 weeks ago on grapes. And 1 week ago on the juice batch. The "blend" is just the leftover from both combined. 
Am I wrong about this? Seems unhealthily quick to me. 
Note: going to do another test to confirm results. This time correct and much neater [emoji422]️


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## Johnd (May 19, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well I just did my 1st test as well. And it ain't pretty. Learned a quick lesson about using an eraser on the paper. Which is: Don't do it! That's all those extra blue dots across the bottom and the smudges on the right side. Also dropped a cab grape skin right where "Rosè" was intended. And mistakenly dabbed acid EVERYWHERE misreading instructions. Just a hot mess.
> 
> Probably shouldn't have rushed and actually did a little thing called research. Regardless I can still read where it needs to be read. It's actually only three samples that I added ML marked on the bottom. The others are just kits tested for the fun of it.
> 
> ...



LOL!!! That is a hot mess!! Do another, by the book. It does appear that you're close to done on the MLF batches, that's not unhealthy. Your MLB had the benefit of working in warm temps (fueled by yeast fermentation heat production) as well as a nearly alcohol free environment in the beginning, with plenty of food available. Smile!


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## ceeaton (May 19, 2017)

I would frame that one, looks like post-modern period wine art to me. An artistic classic all around!


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2017)

I asked them not to laugh. 
.........They laughed anyway.
#SarcasmCountsToo



Lol. Just another couple hours and I'll be redeeming myself.


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## ceeaton (May 19, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I asked them not to laugh.
> .........They laughed anyway.
> #SarcasmCountsToo
> View attachment 36315
> ...



I am not laughing. I did smile though, it helped make a nasty Friday a little better, so thank you. I have wine making stories I could tell you that would have you in stitches, so like I said, I did not laugh at you, but smiled in appreciation of things I've done much like that in the past.

If I had that test sheet and could find a way to "fix" the color, I would frame it and have it in my wine area. It is unique and only a wine maker would know what it is...


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2017)

ceeaton said:


> I am not laughing. I did smile though, it helped make a nasty Friday a little better, so thank you. I have wine making stories I could tell you that would have you in stitches, so like I said, I did not laugh at you, but smiled in appreciation of things I've done much like that in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had that test sheet and could find a way to "fix" the color, I would frame it and have it in my wine area. It is unique and only a wine maker would know what it is...




I know that man. I'm just kiddin around about it. And I'm not easily offended. Growing up with four brothers in Northeast Philly and being on construction sites your whole life will give you thick skin real quick. 
Hope your Friday night gets better. Or at least less of a bummer. And who knows, maybe it will end up in a frame! Go birds


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## Johnd (May 19, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I asked them not to laugh.
> .........They laughed anyway.
> #SarcasmCountsToo
> View attachment 36315
> ...



We're laughing WITH you! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I've messed up more stuff than you can imagine, not so bad as to have ruined anything, but mistakes happen. Yours is totally harmless, cost you a couple bucks tops, but I'm glad you weren't too proud to share it, others may be able to learn from it.


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## ceeaton (May 19, 2017)

Eagles rule...I think that background color would be nice for a new uniform color, not quite Kelly green, but....fly Eagles fly...


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2017)

Johnd said:


> I've messed up more stuff than you can imagine,not so bad as to have ruined anything, but mistakes happen.



I like how you squeezed that in there. I can relate. Like the time I didn't account for more space for the airlocks on my oak shelf carboy wall. Or when the mosaic tile centerpiece was 2 inches off center. And then broke a hydrometer accidentally after being angry with myself for not using a dark enough stain in my Mecca of all home wine rooms! 
Just messin with ya John! But I put a lot of you guys up on pedestals. So you're not allowed to make mistakes. Leave that to me. Got it?
But seriously that would be a great thread : funny winemaking mistakes or mishaps. Everyone's got em. Thought I'm sure that's had to of been done many times over the years.


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2017)

What background color? You mean the chromatography paper post-test background? More specifically @Stevelaz 's paper's color. Not mine of course.


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## Stevelaz (May 20, 2017)

After looking at my test results, on the first page, when is the next time i should test again?

Another thing, My samples are coming from a 15 gallon demi, a 6 gallon carboy, a 4 gallon carboy, and half gallon jug. Will the smaller containers finish faster?


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## Johnd (May 20, 2017)

Stevelaz said:


> After looking at my test results, on the first page, when is the next time i should test again?



Maybe around the end of the end of may or mid June. Once you get a test showing malic is gone, give it another couple weeks before sulfiting, then proceed with your normal regimen of bulk aging, racking, oaking, etc.


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2017)

Now that's more like it


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2017)

Steve what were the batches that you added ML? Your chroma paper pic lost some quality on the upload. Tough to read the bottom


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## ceeaton (May 20, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 36320
> 
> Now that's more like it



See, a bluish midnight green where the samples were dabbed, the rest a nice kelly green. Looking like you are pretty darn far along in my opinion. Eagles fans are more passionate and smarter, so these test things are just an easy exercise. Too bad they have that yellow color in there, reminds me of the other PA team, too bad it couldn't be silver or something.


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2017)

Smarter relating to the X's and O's of football. My brothers and I split season tix since I was a teenager back at the Vet. Way up top with the cavemen. We loved it then. Sundays are sacred. 
Years later ive a different perspective. Football knowledge? Yes. Draft analysis? You bet. Player's personal info for witty and knowledgeable heckling? Nobody comes close (I was known for doing research solely for heckling) 
But The tailgate idiots and drunkenness are the worst. The games really bring out the worst type of fans. The stunads who only care about getting drunk. They really make it less enjoyable. We gave up our tix up around 2012. The games are better on tv anyway. 
And even though I grew up seeing all types of shenanigans, I probably would not take my daughter to a game. On the other hand Phillies games have a great family atmosphere. 
Steelers fans are a pain in the a** too. And that god awful accent when they say "Stillrs" or "rawtholsbrger" makes me cringe! I'm sure you deal with em a lot near Harrisburg. I do love Pittsburg tho. Spent a couple weekends there and caught ballgames. Truly a Great town
Look what you made me do! Talking malo bacteria somehow turned to football. I'm easily distracted. 
I think I'll test again in a couple weeks and then stabilize with k-meta. 
Btw did you check your so2 levels of the grapes or juice? I made no sulphite additions and both were right about 50 free ppm. Which tells me 2 things: Those k-meta pads on the grapes work very well. And VP-41 is a helluva culture! (The So2 levels and Also worked in spite of low pH 3.1 juice and 3.2 grape)


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## Stevelaz (May 20, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Steve what were the batches that you added ML? Your chroma paper pic lost some quality on the upload. Tough to read the bottom



The first one after the tartaric, malic, lactic, 
1) merlot in a 15 gallon demi
2) merlot in a 4 gallon carboy, 
3) merlot in a half gallon jug 
(all the merlots were fermented together in one batch) 
4) carmenere in a 6 gallon carboy and 
5) last one is a chardonnay. The chardonnay i am not putting thru mlf but i 
thought id throw it on there since i had the room....


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2017)

Gotchya. Where did you find a 4 gal carboy?? I've been in the lookout for one

Oh I see what you did there. The Demi, a carboy and a jug. All for the same batch. That's a pain. The Demi is actually 14.25 gal or so right? I have the same ones 54 liter. My fall supplier works great since they sell 5 gallon juice. 6 gallon seems to throw a wrench in the gears. 
I'm gonna have to figure out how many grapes I'll need to fill one in September.


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## Johnd (May 20, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> View attachment 36320
> 
> Now that's more like it



Looks very nice! Sulfite in a couple of weeks, and you're ready to wait for months!!


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## ceeaton (May 20, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Smarter relating to the X's and O's of football. My brothers and I split season tix since I was a teenager back at the Vet. Way up top with the cavemen. We loved it then. Sundays are sacred.
> Years later ive a different perspective. Football knowledge? Yes. Draft analysis? You bet. Player's personal info for witty and knowledgeable heckling? Nobody comes close (I was known for doing research solely for heckling)
> But The tailgate idiots and drunkenness are the worst. The games really bring out the worst type of fans. The stunads who only care about getting drunk. They really make it less enjoyable. We gave up our tix up around 2012. The games are better on tv anyway.
> And even though I grew up seeing all types of shenanigans, I probably would not take my daughter to a game. On the other hand Phillies games have a great family atmosphere.
> ...



Sad that the atmosphere in the parking lot is that bad, would love to take my family if I had the $$. But after that witness I'd think twice about it.

Agree with P-burg fans, very prevalent in Harrisburg region. My best friend growing up was an Eagles and Phillies phanatic, rest of his family were P-burg fans (originally from Ashtabula OH). I don't know how he put up with them to be honest. There are a quite a few where I work, but there are some very savy Eagles fans which makes it kinda fun most days, especially in the Fall.

No, I didn't measure the SO2 levels, I'm cheap and haven't bought a rig yet to measure it. Will purchase one before I get a barrel since it is so important to making good wine. Amazed the levels were as high as you measured. Might be why some here had issues last Spring, even with VP-41. I think Boatboy Jim normally adds some Kmeta to his grapes before adding Lallzyme and eventually yeast. Could explain why he had issues.

I'm using CH16 (I think) and it is slowly bubbling away just fine, but I don't ever add Kmeta (except maybe my first batch in April/May 2015) up front since the grapes are usually in great condition (from the added Kmeta pads, I'm sure).


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## Ajmassa (May 20, 2017)

ceeaton said:


> No, I didn't measure the SO2 levels, I'm cheap and haven't bought a rig yet to measure it. Will purchase one before I get a barrel since it is so important to making good wine. Amazed the levels were as high as you measured. .



I don't have a rig either. I know myself pretty good though, and I'm sure I'll invest in the vinmetrica 300 within a year. 
I've been using the titrettes for a couple years now. Not crazy expensive, but they add up. A 10 pack I get for $18. I assume they're accurate. Individually pre-loaded with solution so all you need to do is slowly suck up a sample. At the color change you just flip it over and read the level. It tests "free ppm" not "total ppm".


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## Stevelaz (May 20, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Gotchya. Where did you find a 4 gal carboy?? I've been in the lookout for one
> 
> Oh I see what you did there. The Demi, a carboy and a jug. All for the same batch. That's a pain. The Demi is actually 14.25 gal or so right? I have the same ones 54 liter. My fall supplier works great since they sell 5 gallon juice. 6 gallon seems to throw a wrench in the gears.
> I'm gonna have to figure out how many grapes I'll need to fill one in September.



Yes the demi is actually 54 liters or 14.25 gallons. 

The 4 gallon carboy that i was referring to is a 4 gallon water bottle that is sold at sams club. It is pretty much like a better bottle with the same recycle code. I saw a post somewhere here where they mentioned them and had a bunch of them they were using for bulk storage.


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## sour_grapes (May 21, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Growing up with four brothers in Northeast Philly



Hey, I knew we were both from Philly, but I grew up in the Northeast, too! In fact, I am here right now (taking care of my mom for a week).


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## Ajmassa (May 21, 2017)

Small world! Well northeast is huge, yet everyone ends up knowing the same people if ya play the name game long enough. Whereabouts are you from? I grew up in Holmesburg, and Bustleton (folks still there.) Then bought a house in Mayfair in 06'. Unfortunately the Neighborhoods have all changed. I've since crossed the river to south jersey, living in Suburbia, USA! 
And Sea Isle City for much of the summer. Memorial Day cannot come any sooner!


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## sour_grapes (May 21, 2017)

Well, for people from the area but not from Philly, I usually say "Mayfair." To people from Philly, I usually say "Holmesburg." But not strictly. I grew up near Holme Circle, in Winchester Park. I am sitting here at my sister's house in Winchester Park as we speak!

Small world, indeed!


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## Ajmassa (May 21, 2017)

Yes! St Jeromes area. I played softball for Hemingways tavern. I know it well. I went to Father Judge HS. Winchester park is one of the only nice neighborhoods left.


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## sour_grapes (May 21, 2017)

Oh, man: I went to Jerome's and Judge ('81)!


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## Ajmassa (May 21, 2017)

We almost walked the halls together. Just a short 20 yrs separating us! I was one neighborhood over at BVM and Judge 01'. 
With this HS connection I hope you know I'll be expecting special treatment! Alas, it's been a long day for me. (Oral surgery) though I'll be picking your brain soon enough. Cheers


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## Stevelaz (Jun 3, 2017)

Here are the results of my second test. Looks like its moving along pretty good. What you guys think of how much longer? The first test was done May 16. The only thing i did different is that i made the samples a bit smaller than the first one and i also left out the chardonnay on the second. Here are both...


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## cmason1957 (Jun 3, 2017)

I would give it at least two more weeks and maybe a full more month, just leave the airlock on and no need to be stirring now. It's all good.


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## Stevelaz (Jun 19, 2017)

I just tasted all my wine and i must say i am very impressed with them all! They seem very smooth for this point! Guess the malo is working! lol. The only minor off taste is what i believe to be gas, as this wine really was not degassed fully. 

My last paper chrom test, about 2 weeks ago, showed malo was near completion. Im planning on testing again at the end of this week which will bring me to 3 weeks since last test. I know some here say to wait a few more weeks to a month after the test shows complete, but is there really any harm to just moving forward if there is slight malic left? Thanks!


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## Ajmassa (Jun 19, 2017)

the only harm would be not converting 100% of all the malic acid. Potentially having a wine that could have tasted even better. 
But I think it's common practice to run partial MLF leaving some malic on purpose if it compliments the wine. 
Now knowing when and when not to do that is another story. No clue. If it tastes good and your happy with it I say go with it. Why not. It's your wine. Plus you could already be 100% done anyway. 
I ran MLF for the 1st time also on 2 Chilean reds. And I'm very thrilled with how great they're tasting in just 6 weeks. Is this the wine you just oaked? The merlot?
(Bumping this thread just brought back the nightmare memory of my first chroma test. Good god).


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## Stevelaz (Jun 19, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> the only harm would be not converting 100% of all the malic acid. Potentially having a wine that could have tasted even better.
> But I think it's common practice to run partial MLF leaving some malic on purpose if it compliments the wine.
> Now knowing when and when not to do that is another story. No clue. If it tastes good and your happy with it I say go with it. Why not. It's your wine. Plus you could already be 100% done anyway.
> I ran MLF for the 1st time also on 2 Chilean reds. And I'm very thrilled with how great they're tasting in just 6 weeks. Is this the wine you just oaked? The merlot?
> (Bumping this thread just brought back the nightmare memory of my first chroma test. Good god).



No, i have not oaked it yet, so it should get even better! I usually oak after the second rack before i put it down for bulk aging. So this batch im going to wait until im finished with mlf. I will then rack and degass with the all in one pump, add the oak spirals, and move it to basement to bulk age.

Mine is also Chilean and about 6 weeks too! 7 to be exact.


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## Stevelaz (Jun 23, 2017)

What the heck? I did a test yesterday hoping it mlf would be complete since the last test on Jun 2 showed closed to finished. This test looks as if there is no improvement, in fact the one done 3 weeks ago looks better....After the last test i stopped stirring. I wonder if i should still be stirring? How about more nutrient? Here are the tests from yesterday and Jun 2. Thanks!


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## Johnd (Jun 23, 2017)

Stevelaz said:


> What the heck? I did a test yesterday hoping it mlf would be complete since the last test on Jun 2 showed closed to finished. This test looks as if there is no improvement, in fact the one done 3 weeks ago looks better....After the last test i stopped stirring. I wonder if i should still be stirring? How about more nutrient? Here are the tests from yesterday and Jun 2. Thanks!



Stir every few days, test again in a month.


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## ceeaton (Jun 23, 2017)

Agree with @Johnd , stir every couple/few days, retest in a few weeks to a month. I had one last summer that wasn't progressing, then realized after reading some posts here that I had failed to stir it up every so often. Within two weeks after I started a regular stirring regiment, it was showing progress, let it go a few more weeks and added my Kmeta.


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## Stevelaz (Jun 25, 2017)

Thanks guys! I do see a lot more of them tiny bubbles since stirring it the other day!


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## mainshipfred (Jun 26, 2017)

Just did a chromotography on my Syrah juice but also my kits. I thought kits were supposed to be balanced but there all showing high malic low lactic. I never read anything except don't do MLF on kits. So what is the real story and is this the kit taste everyone talks about.


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## ibglowin (Jun 26, 2017)

Maybe the 82nd time will be the charm.........

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=623732&highlight=pambianchi#post623732



mainshipfred said:


> Just did a chromotography on my Syrah juice but also my kits. I thought kits were supposed to be balanced but there all showing high malic low lactic. I never read anything except don't do MLF on kits. So what is the real story and is this the kit taste everyone talks about.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 26, 2017)

OK thanks, got that, so could that be the reason kits don't match up to better commercial wines? Also, is it a flaw in the production process?


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## ibglowin (Jun 26, 2017)

LOL I think it has something to do with (actual) fermenting on hundreds (and hundreds) of pounds of grape skins IMHO.





mainshipfred said:


> OK thanks, got that, so could that be the reason kits don't match up to better commercial wines? Also, is it a flaw in the production process?


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## mainshipfred (Jun 26, 2017)

My mental pros and cons list separating grapes/juice buckets and kits is weighing heavily against kits. I'm sure there are varietals that won't be available so some kits may be necessary. I could be talking out of my butt though since I have yet to taste a finished wine of mine.


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## ibglowin (Jun 26, 2017)

Kits have a place. Learn the ropes, some people like the wines just fine, others not so much. I moved on after a couple of years to fresh grapes but I still make my whites from the high end or LR Kits. Since they get pressed off right away they come much closer to the real deal IMHO. I usually have to add more acid to crisp them up a bit more to my liking but that is a stylistic thing.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 26, 2017)

Again, not ever tasting mine I would think the whites would be fine. Good tip on the acid though, thanks.


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## Stevelaz (Jul 22, 2017)

Here is my latest test i did yesterday on my Chilean juice from this year. It looks very close to being done , if not done already. I see a very very faint yellow on all the samples. Since this is my first time with mlf im not sure when to know its complete. Should there be NO yellow at all or will it never actually be totally clear? Thanks, please let me know what you think.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 22, 2017)

You are nearly complete. Let it sit for another 2 weeks or maybe even a month. I don't think you need to test it again, you are near the lower limits of what chromatography can tell you.


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## Stevelaz (Jul 22, 2017)

cmason1957 said:


> You are nearly complete. Let it sit for another 2 weeks or maybe even a month. I don't think you need to test it again, you are near the lower limits of what chromatography can tell you.



Ok. Thanks. Oh, and i forgot to mention that i still see very tiny bubbles at the service rim of the wine and some tiny bubbles still rising up through the wine. However, im thinking it could be from degassing? Also, i just gave the Merlot a taste and pretty good for being this young!


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## ceeaton (Jul 22, 2017)

Stevelaz said:


> Ok. Thanks. Oh, and i forgot to mention that i still see very tiny bubbles at the service rim of the wine and some tiny bubbles still rising up through the wine. However, im thinking it could be from degassing? Also, i just gave the Merlot a taste and pretty good for being this young!



Stir every few days, when the tiny bubbles subside I'd test again, or within a few weeks. I don't get the same amount of tiny bubbles when my wine is degassing verses when MLF is doing it's thing. I think it's a pretty good indicator to watch. The frequency of the blurps through your airlock will also be more frequent as MLF is progressing. When they slow up, I test. If it shows it's done, I wait two weeks. That being said in all honesty upon looking at the image of your latest test I think you will be pretty much done in two weeks, as long as you stir it up a few times in between. I've always had a touch of yellow in the malic area, never had it perfectly clean.


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## Stevelaz (Aug 25, 2017)

I just finished racking after malo completing. My Carmenere taste pretty good so far but im a little worried about the merlot. I know its early but Its kinda harsh right now..
Im aging now with oak spirals...


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