# First time making wine. Few Questions



## Milkman06 (Jan 6, 2013)

My mom has been making muscadine wine for a long time and I am wanting to start making my own. I ordered a kit and it will be here Tuesday. 

My first question is can I store my homemade wine in Mason jars? And if i can store them in Mason jars, would it be better to store them in the fridge, in my cabinet in the kitchen or I can store them in a tote under the house where it is cool and dark. 

My next question is about sanitizing. I thought the kit I order had something in it to sanitize. I read that you can use Campden tablets. Then I also watch a video where someone was using baking soda. Will baking soda work? 

Thanks for the help.


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## Julie (Jan 6, 2013)

Welcome to winemakingtalk

I won't store in mason jars, that is not sealed unless you heat your wine in the jar so the lid seals, then it you do that, you are losing alcohol.

What kit did you buy? You should look into getting a equipment starter kit. Check the vendor's section, one of our vendors will be able to help you out. You really need to get your equipment before starting to make your wine.


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2013)

Milkman06 said:


> My mom has been making muscadine wine for a long time and I am wanting to start making my own. I ordered a kit and it will be here Tuesday.
> 
> My first question is can I store my homemade wine in Mason jars? And if i can store them in Mason jars, would it be better to store them in the fridge, in my cabinet in the kitchen or I can store them in a tote under the house where it is cool and dark.
> 
> ...


 
Mason jars...yucch.

Baking soda as sanitizer...never heard of it before.

By kit, do you mean "equipment kit" or "wine ingredient kit"? Most equipment kits include a cleaner and a sanitizer. Yes, campden can be used as a sanitizer. Wine ingredient kits do not include a sanitizer.

Steve


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## Forgetthegrape (Jan 6, 2013)

Like Julie says, get an equipment starter kit, you will need a floating thermometer, a proper hydrometer for both the specific gravity and sugar content(there are combined ones that work for wine, beer and such), I would skip the pipette, however a wine thief is a must. You do not need a graduated cylinder however you can get Pyrex ones through most high schools or your local pharmacy. Be prepared to answer questions about what your doing with it.

As for sterilization: FIRST always mix your sterilant in a well ventilated area (outside is best) liquid Chlorine for pools(not laundry bleach) or sodium bi-sulfate and water solution. Be careful with either of these as they will cause chemical burns if not used properly, wear gloves and goggles and always mix chemical into water not the other way around! Once you have your solution you can temper it with more water as the reaction will be muted but at full strength you could get hurt. I use chlorine for pools and use about 125ml chemical per 4000ml water. At this strength it will kill anything, however it will also cause a light burn on your skin( it will go red like a burn and may cause your skin to lightly peel, wear gloves dish gloves are good.) if you get this in your eyes get to a hospital quickly as it will cause damage. And try not to breath the vapors, liquid chlorine vapors will cause you to be short of breath, if this happens remove yourself and then bend over from the waist and take deep breaths exhaling completely. AVOID USING AMMONIA AT ALL COSTS! its not worth your life. Any ammonia and chlorine will cause dangerous vapors that can kill you. 
Storage of sterilant: you can use empty and well rinsed laundry bleach bottles, they are safe for chlorine and sodium bi-sulfate solutions (do not mix these together) Keep in a cool place and MAKE SURE TO RE LABEL THE BOTTLE! don't just write on the bottle make a proper label. The Chlorine solution stays stable for a year at a time, if you have training you can re stabilize it, but unless you know what your doing its best to make a new batch. Sodium bi-sulfate stays in solution for 3mo. and stable for years, just stir the solution back into suspension.

Warnings: BEFORE you make any of these spend some time learning about them. Anything that is used as a sterilant can kill you if not used properly. DO NOT USE TSP (tri-sodium-phosphates) they leave a residue behind that etches into glass, so gets into your wine and may cause you to get sick. When in doubt, ASK QUESTIONS. you may not get the answer you want but at least those here wont steer you wrong.


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## Milkman06 (Jan 6, 2013)

This is the kit that I bought. Plus I ordered another gallon carboy, rubber stopper, airlock, 100 more campden tablets, and potassium sorbate from another company in New York. 

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_34_81&products_id=12956

Why would y'all store in mason jars? Me and my fiancée aren't heavy drinkers. We might drink a glass or two a night when we have dinner. So I don't wanna buy a lot of bottles and equipment. If at possible I would like to store the wine in mason jars. I prefer the look of mason jars to wine bottles. Because I flavor my own alcohol by fruit and store it in mason jars.


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2013)

Don't use chlorine as a wine sanitizer. It can contribute to "corked" wine, not a good thing.

Steve


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2013)

Milkman06:

Looks like a nice equipment kit. You may wish to get a small auto-siphon to make starting the siphon easier. http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=11058

If you want to use mason jars, go right ahead. I have a concern about head space in a mason jar, and the possibility of the wine oxidizing. If you're only making gallons, then the wine probably won't last that long, so maybe oxidation won't be an issue.

Steve


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## Milkman06 (Jan 6, 2013)

Cpfan

I was told by the company in New York, who I was going to buy a kit from at first but from the one I got for cheaper and they told me that if I bought the potassium sorbate and put it in my wine right before I put in mason jars I would not have to worry about the wine oxidizing. Did they tell me part of the truth? 

What would be a good no rinse sanitizer? I don't want to have to use 20 campden tablets per gallon of water every time. I thought about buying Star San but read that since it cleans by acid it can effect the wine and since I'm just learning, I'm a little slow to just buy a lot.


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## grapeman (Jan 6, 2013)

You can buy the potassium metabisulfite by the half pound or pound bag for 4-5 dollars and 2-3 tablespoons per gallon gives you sanitizing strength.


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2013)

Milkman06 said:


> I was told by the company in New York, who I was going to buy a kit from at first but from the one I got for cheaper and they told me that if I bought the potassium sorbate and put it in my wine right before I put in mason jars I would not have to worry about the wine oxidizing. Did they tell me part of the truth?


Potassium sorbate will stop the yeast from reproducing, but does nothing to prevent the wine from oxidizing.

Potassium metabisulphite (K-meta) or campden helps to preserve the wine from bacterial action and oxidation. But if the wine is exposed to too much oxygen then the SO2 from the K-meta will be used up, and the wine will start to oxidize.

So, what exactly did they tell you? 



Milkman06 said:


> What would be a good no rinse sanitizer? I don't want to have to use 20 campden tablets per gallon of water every time. I thought about buying Star San but read that since it cleans by acid it can effect the wine and since I'm just learning, I'm a little slow to just buy a lot.


 
I use iodophor as my no rinse sanitizer.

Steve


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## Milkman06 (Jan 6, 2013)

This is the email that I got. 


"Yes, as long as the wine is stabilized (potassium sorbate and campden tablets will do that) before you put it in the jars, and then seal them well. You should keep the jars out of direct sunlight as well."






C


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2013)

Milkman06 said:


> This is the email that I got.
> "Yes, as long as the wine is stabilized (potassium sorbate and campden tablets will do that) before you put it in the jars, and then seal them well. You should keep the jars out of direct sunlight as well."


 
That says BOTH not just sorbate.

Steve


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## Milkman06 (Jan 6, 2013)

Yeah. I would put the campden in at the beginning and the sorbate at the end. Correct?


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2013)

Milkman06 said:


> Yeah. I would put the campden in at the beginning and the sorbate at the end. Correct?


Nope.

Campden/K-meta is put in at the start (24 hours before adding the yeast) to shut down any wild yeasts on the fruit. This allows the wine yeast to get going and not have to fight an active wild yeast. This is not necessary if using pasteurized juices.

Campden/k-meta is added AGAIN after fermentation is complete. This dosage is what helps to prevent oxidation. Sorbate would be added at the same time.

Steve


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## Milkman06 (Jan 6, 2013)

Ok. So it's 2 tablets per gallon. The recipe that is going to be my first batch called for only one tab of campden. 

Thanks for all your help so far.


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## JohnT (Jan 7, 2013)

Milkman, 

Why do you want to use mason jars? It this for the novelty of it? 

There is good reason why you never see wine sold in anything that resembles a mason jar. You do see "moonshine" in mason jars, but "moonshine" has such a high acid and alcohol levels that they are their own preservative. Wine, on the other hand, is much more delacate. 

Just a little food for thought... You made such a big investment in a kit, why not give your wine the best chance for success. It would be a real shame to have your wine oxidize simply because you did not use a proper closure.

Also, (as others may have stated) never-ever-never-ever use baking soda in anything haveing to do with winemaking! There are two very good reasons for this. First, baking soda is Sodium based. Use of baking soda will, eventually, introduce sodium into your wine which will change the "texture" of your wine. Secondly, baking soda is a base compound (has a very high ph) and will effect the carefully maintained PH balance of your wine (lowers the acid content). Proper PH is KEY to good wine!


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## Milkman06 (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes it's more for the novelty. I am a History teacher and the prohibition era and all is one of my favorite periods, so I love the mason jar look. But idiot want my wine to go bad. Would storing in a one gallon glass carboy or 750ml liquor bottles work. I know that the screw caps wouldn't be air tight but the small neck would be less surface area.


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## JohnT (Jan 8, 2013)

Mason jars were more used for moonshine which can stand up to a less then perfect seal. You need to keep this in mind, liquar does not really need a good tight seal.

750ml bottles are your best bet, but it really comes down to how you seal the container (closure) and what your plan is for consumption. 

The problem with wine is that is does not like long term exposure to air. If you have ever tasted oxidized wine, you will understand my point. 

A gallon jug is good for long term storage of wine. However, once you reach the point where you want to start drinking the wine, I would strongly advise that you transfer to 750ml bottles.

Most people will not go through a full gallon of wine in one sitting. So, the question is "what do you do with the left-overs?". If you leave a half empty jug of wine to age, I can garantee that you will be very disappointed! It is far better to fill 5 750ml bottles then a 1 gallon jug.

The reason most wine bottles are 750ml is that this is a volume that most can completely consume in one sitting. You can open up one bottle while keeping the other 4 tightly sealed.

I would advise against using liquar bottles. The neck is crafted to accept a "T-top" type cork. These do not really provide the kind of tight seal that you need for wine. These types of T-tops are designed to be removed by hand with a gentle tug and are not reliable enough to provide a good tight seal over time.

With all of the time, work, and money you put into making a good batch of wine, do youself a favor and use standard wine bottles with clean, unused corks. A lot of folks get their bottles for free at the local recycling center or save their own used wine bottles. Corks run about 20 cents, and a good lever action corker runs about $15. It is well worth the investment!

johnT.


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## mookiex4 (Oct 7, 2016)

If you use the Mason Jar Vacuum sealer attachment you do not have to heat anything! I wish people would reply after they research things. I understand that personal experience is essential so we can move forwardJinge Jango Djano from here. Corks provide minimal Oxygen exchange. Perhaps there needs to be more about all of this. I have Rhubarb wine coming off in a few months so I need to settle this issue myself.



Julie said:


> Welcome to winemakingtalk
> 
> I won't store in mason jars, that is not sealed unless you heat your wine in the jar so the lid seals, then it you do that, you are losing alcohol.
> 
> What kit did you buy? You should look into getting a equipment starter kit. Check the vendor's section, one of our vendors will be able to help you out. You really need to get your equipment before starting to make your wine.


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## mookiex4 (Oct 7, 2016)

Milkman06 said:


> Cpfan
> 
> I was told by the company in New York, who I was going to buy a kit from at first but from the one I got for cheaper and they told me that if I bought the potassium sorbate and put it in my wine right before I put in mason jars I would not have to worry about the wine oxidizing. Did they tell me part of the truth?
> 
> What would be a good no rinse sanitizer? I don't want to have to use 20 campden tablets per gallon of water every time. I thought about buying Star San but read that since it cleans by acid it can effect the wine and since I'm just learning, I'm a little slow to just buy a lot.



First off. You should be using 1 Campden tablet per gallon. Acid wise you should not be concerned. The wine yeast will resist the acidic nature of the wine. I wouldn't worry about all of this. 

I have made several gallons of Rhubarb wine from the garden and talk about acidic. Rhubarb is tops. I use Star San and Campden tabs. Campden actually does the following. It kills Natural yeasts, Stops fermentation by Natural Yeasts and preserves the flavor and color of the wine. All vineyards use it in their process. If you want sweeter you can back sweeten the wine during botling.


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## Julie (Oct 7, 2016)

mookiex4 said:


> If you use the Mason Jar Vacuum sealer attachment you do not have to heat anything! I wish people would reply after they research things. I understand that personal experience is essential so we can move forwardJinge Jango Djano from here. Corks provide minimal Oxygen exchange. Perhaps there needs to be more about all of this. I have Rhubarb wine coming off in a few months so I need to settle this issue myself.



Watch how you state things, rudeness will not keep you here.


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## Scooter68 (Oct 8, 2016)

The problem with mason jars is the potential of reaction between the lid metal and the alcohol and acidity of the wine. 
As to cleaning - stick with the recommended sanitizing materials like K-meta, OneStep, StarSan - products made for use by beer and wine makers. Other products can leave behind residue that can ruin your wine or create off-flavors and smells. StarSan isn't going to affect your wine. It's made for use with food products and when mixed and used per instructions will not cause any problems.

You don't have to buy bottles - go to the local recycling center collect, clean and just use new corks. 

You can only go just so far 'on the cheap' before you run the risk of wasting your time and fruit/grapes. You need to plan on a some level of investment and following some basic processes or you are liable to wind up with undrinkable 'wine' or bottle bombs that make a big mess for you as well as leave you with nothing to drink. 

Before you jump right into your first batch you need to do some serious reading. Jack Keller has a number of short articles on wine making and there are a lot of threads on here that provide you guidance. Most of all you need to have patience - you cannot rush wine making or you will end up with something that makes 'Ripple' taste like champagne.


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## wyogal (Oct 8, 2016)

*Mason Jar Vacuum Sealer--I would not trust this for wine*



mookiex4 said:


> If you use the Mason Jar Vacuum sealer attachment you do not have to heat anything! I wish people would reply after they research things.


I'm no expert winemaker, but I've been canning for over 40 years and I think this is questionable. The reason is that vacuum sealers also depend on the jars, lids, *and contents* being completely sterile at the beginning. Sterile, not just cleaned and sanitized. I honestly don't know how a home brewer/vintner could accomplish this without heating everything well beyond the point of damage to the wine. 

Re the "prohibition style": You sound like a pretty creative guy to me--I would bet you could think up a label or bottle treatment that would give you that feeling, and it would be unique! Your very own.


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## drainsurgeon (Oct 9, 2016)

Wow, a few surprises on this post.

First is to mookiex4. You make better wine with honey than with fruit flies. Attitude change my friend. I need to correct your 1 Campdon tablet per gallon statement. That is for preventing oxidation and bacterial growth. The correct dosage for "sanitizing" is 3-4 table spoons per gallon (my k-meta bag says 2oz/gallon). That would be about 48 Campdon tabs per gallon.

Second is that there has been no mention to the fact that if you are not going to back-sweeten your wine, you don't need any sorbate at all. None. Nada. Zilch. 
Someone earlier in this thread mentioned adding sorbate "while bottling". Assuming that they are sweetening also, I think this is a dangerous practice. I always wait at least one week after stabilizing (k-meta and sorbate), back-sweeten, wait one more week (to make sure you've not started another ferment) and THEN bottle. These are MINIMUM times.

Third is a question about oxidation. JohnT made a statement about one gallon for long term storage, but once starting to consume, it should be transferred to 750ml bottles to prevent oxidation. The reason being that it would not be all consumed in one sitting. This makes me think that oxidation happens a lot sooner that I previously thought. I sometimes have a bottle of open wine sitting on the counter for a week or two as I regularly use it in cooking. I also sample while cooking (just to make sure it's not gone bad  ) and have not noticed any ill effects from this practice. I've also not been overly concerned about a little access head space while brewing kits. The exposure time is usually 2-3 weeks and didn't think oxidation happened that fast. Please educate me on how fast it happens.


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