# Rattlesnake Hills Malbec



## crushday (Mar 14, 2020)

This morning I drove to Portland to pick up 5 buckets of Rattlesnake Hills Malbec. By driving down, I saved $300 in shipping and handling. Listening to a couple of podcasts made the time go by although it's only about a 2 hour drive one way.

Here's the particulars: *Brix: 24.6, pH: 3.36, TA: .54*

They should be thawed by tomorrow afternoon at which time I'll start by mixing all five buckets in my 45 gallon stainless fermenting pot. I'll be pitching D254 and the next day co-inoculating with CH16.

I'll post my progress and more information soon.

PS The conical fermentor has Meglioli Rojo Grande that I ordered last October and started today.


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## CDrew (Mar 14, 2020)

Frozen Must I assume? Nice fermenting pot!

Any progress report on the Tempranillo?


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## crushday (Mar 14, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Frozen Must I assume? Nice fermenting pot!
> 
> Any progress report on the Tempranillo?



Frozen must from wine grapes direct. Like Brehm, they are in Portland metro. Their website had the buckets listed for $155 each. By picking up, they only charged me $125 each and I saved $30 each to ship. 

https://winegrapesdirect.com/shop/2018-rattlesnake-hills-malbec-frozen-grape-must

I moved the Tempranillo to a carboy today. I’ve been racking as it had lots of lees and fallout over the last couple of months. I’ll check it again in three months. But, it tastes AMAZING!

Fermenting pot - for the amount of wine I make, the stainless steel was a better fit. And, it was a good buy on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FC2M5Y9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 14, 2020)

What a great way to pass the time during social distancing! . And a nice deal to boot!


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## Johnd (Mar 14, 2020)

That looks like pretty good numbers on what I’m betting will be a really good wine! You should finish up in the 3.5 + range after AF / MLF and have a very manageable wine, good luck with it!!!


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## NorCal (Mar 15, 2020)

and a great name as well.


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## crushday (Mar 15, 2020)

Just need the must to warm now enough to add the yeast...


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2020)

crushday said:


> Just need the must to warm now enough to add the yeast...
> 
> View attachment 59335



Keep that cold soak going as long as you can, it’s a good opportunity afforded by frozen must.


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## crushday (Mar 15, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Keep that cold soak going as long as you can, it’s a good opportunity afforded by frozen must.


Ok, John. I can keep it going and I can turn the heat down. 

What do you recommend? Thermometer tells me the must is 45 degrees. Room temp set to 75.


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2020)

crushday said:


> Ok, John. I can keep it going and I can turn the heat down.
> 
> What do you recommend? Thermometer tells me the must is 45 degrees. Room temp set to 75.



Might be tardy advice since you’re edging close to the 50’s. You’d have been best keeping it in the low 30’s, some wineries cool for a few days, a week, or more, before allowing it to warm up. I’ve gotten a week out of frozen must in the wine room at 55, kind of an icy, slushy must as it slowly thawed. You’d have to be prepped with some frozen water jugs to prolong the warming process.


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## crushday (Mar 15, 2020)

@Johnd I’ll make the most of it. Thanks for the info. I’ll keep you posted. 

As you can tell, I have my other fermenters full now too. I ordered these kits in October 2019 when Midwest and MoreWine had sales. Although I’m not going to buy any more kits, I have these and a few more on hand:

MM Rojo Grande, 30gm of heavy toast and 30gm of light toast chips added, dried raisins, VRB yeast, SG 1.104, FG??
Two WE SL Merlot w/skins, 60gm of heavy toast chips, Avante yeast, SG 1.097, FG?? (12 gallons)
MM Nebbiolo, 120gm of heavy toast chips, dried raisins, D254 yeast, SG 1.100, FG??
MV Sommelier Select, Italian Montepulciano, 60gm of medium toast chips, EC-1118 yeast, SG 1.086, FG??
MV Sommelier Select, Rossa Ardente w/Skins, 30gm of heavy toast and 30gm of medium toast chips, Avante yeast, SG 1.094, FG??
RJS Super Tuscan, 60gm of heavy toast chips, jammy skins, Avante yeast, SG 1.089, FG??


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## CDrew (Mar 15, 2020)

Looking good. I have to say, that given it's been frozen and thus ruptured some of the skin cells, I'd be pretty anxious to get fermentation going once it's at a reasonable temperature for fermentation.

Are you using any enzymes (like EX or EX-V) or just letting it rip in it's natural state? Your must and numbers look great.


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## crushday (Mar 15, 2020)

@CDrew After I popped the buckets and moved everything to the ferm pot, I added EX-V. I also mixed in Opti-Red and Tannin Rouge. I think it’s going to take to Tuesday to get it to yeast temperature but I’ll be checking the must a couple times a day. I have the ability to check the temp and gravity remotely and I can make a progress check from my office.

The brothers at wine grapes direct suggested (and provided) UVA Ferm BDX yeast, but I was planning on D254. SG gave me a 1.103 reading...

Anyone have an opinion they are willing to share on these yeast choices?


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## Johnd (Mar 16, 2020)

crushday said:


> @CDrew After I popped the buckets and moved everything to the ferm pot, I added EX-V. I also mixed in Opti-Red and Tannin Rouge. I think it’s going to take to Tuesday to get it to yeast temperature but I’ll be checking the must a couple times a day. I have the ability to check the temp and gravity remotely and I can make a progress check from my office.
> 
> The brothers at wine grapes direct suggested (and provided) UVA Ferm BDX yeast, but I was planning on D254. SG gave me a 1.103 reading...
> 
> Anyone have an opinion they are willing to share on these yeast choices?



I’m also partial to D254. You’re probably not planning separate ferments, trying half with each and combining is always good for indecision and complexity.....


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## CDrew (Mar 16, 2020)

crushday said:


> @CDrew
> 
> The brothers at wine grapes direct suggested (and provided) UVA Ferm BDX yeast, but I was planning on D254. SG gave me a 1.103 reading...
> 
> Anyone have an opinion they are willing to share on these yeast choices?



I think almost all commercial yeasts are well tested and well known things, so if you have one you're experienced with and like, then that's a great choice to use. And since you're likely looking to age this wine awhile, the absolute choice of yeast is likely not as important as cleanliness, protection from oxidation etc. My 1 experience with D254 was good. Quick, efficient, no bad smells, no issues. I have not done enough comparisons to know if I like it more or less than anything else, but I would use it again. I am also a big fan of the H2S preventing Avante yeast, which takes one of home winemaking's major problems off the table.

Nice to be at it this time of year. I'll look forward to progress reports.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 16, 2020)

BDX is one of my staple yeasts and I've never had a problem with it. It is an abbreviation for Bordeaux so I primarily use it in Bordeaux varietals although it doesn't much matter.


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## crushday (Mar 16, 2020)

Just checked the temp. We’re at 48 degrees - up only 3 clicks overnight. Thinking Wednesday will be yeast day...

I think I’ll keep my D254 heading. I’d like to try the BDX on a smaller batch and I’m not planning to split this current one up.


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## crushday (Mar 17, 2020)

Checked the temp tonight at 9:22pm - 58 degrees. Tomorrow is likely going to be yeast day. Looks like the EV-X is doing it’s job as I can see a reduction in the floating skins. More juice is being presented. Once the must hits 65 degrees I’m pitching the yeast. @CDrew encouraged me to use Avante. I’ve been using Avante for Merlot and Cabs but hadn’t thought that Malbec was a candidate. Perhaps... Lot’s of choices.

There’s simply too many yeast choices and I don’t think my pallet is refined enough to tell the difference. For dinner tonight Mrs. B and I had grilled New York strip steaks as the main course. I pulled out a Malbec from Chili (2016) inoculated with E-1118. This wine tastes amazing.

Bottom line: Does it really matter?


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## jgmann67 (Mar 17, 2020)

crushday said:


> .
> 
> Bottom line: Does it really matter?



I honestly wonder sometimes. Is this just a way to pass the time until we can start a ferment? [emoji16]

But seriously, I’ve used D254 a couple times and really like the results. I’ve also used AMH - thought I was getting a “slow burning” yeast and could ferment for 12-14 days. But, it fermented as quickly as the D254 and the BM4x4.


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## crushday (Mar 17, 2020)

Temp only up 2 clicks overnight - 60 degrees.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 17, 2020)

That looks fantastic already.

Looks like you added oak cubes? My opinion/preference only, but I usually go with chips for fermenting. They give up their goodies in a week or so, whereas the cubes take 6-8 weeks.


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## stickman (Mar 17, 2020)

Looks good, like blood. Just keep your nose in there, there's a biological war going on in that must, shouldn't have any problems, but be prepared to act if anything gets funky.


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## crushday (Mar 17, 2020)

stickman said:


> Just keep your nose in there, there's a biological war going on in that must, shouldn't have any problems, but be prepared to act if anything gets funky.



@stickman As you know, my only experience with frozen must was the recent Tempranillo I made. I remember the must smelling a lot like vegetation at the beginning - almost like the smell of peeling young bark off of a sapling when I was a kid. This Malbec has the same aroma. 

I’m likely pitching the yeast tonight just before I retire for the night.


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## stickman (Mar 18, 2020)

@crushday Sounds like you're in good shape to me.


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## crushday (Mar 18, 2020)

I checked the temp this morning. It's up to 70 degrees. I pitched the yeast last night at 64. 

At the risk of looking and sounding fickle, I ended up using UVAFERM BDX. A couple reasons for this: I have plenty of wines made with Avante and D254, none made with BDX. The BDX comes recommended and supplied by Mike Crews, owner and operator of Wine Grapes Direct. Who, by the way, is a Certified Sommelier/Cicerone©. I can trust that...

Of course, I won't really know the brilliance or folly of this decision for a couple of years...


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## crushday (Mar 18, 2020)

Update: 1:45pm local time. I have a full cap that I just bludgeoned. I'm expecting it to reappear dozens of times over the next couple of weeks but I'm committed to keeping it at bay and strike it down when time affords and opportunity presents, and necessitates. Although tiring at times, the effort will be worth it in the end.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 18, 2020)

crushday said:


> Although tiring at times, the effort will be worth it in the end.



Oh, the struggles we go through for our favorite sport!  I am sure it will be a nice, inky batch.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 18, 2020)

2-3 times a day is plenty for punching that cap down.


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## CDrew (Mar 18, 2020)

Punch down as much as you like right now while it's rocking. I have done as many as 5 times per day, even getting up at 2am to punch it down. As the fermentation moderates, then decrease the number of punch downs. There is nothing good about the grape skins up in the air. And if yours took off that fast you'll be done in just days. Good luck and post updates!


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2020)

Really nice cap this morning and a surprising amount of condensation on the bottom side of the fermenting pot lid. I added the CH16 during the punch down.

For you who have used CH16, the package says that it’s enough for a 66 gallon batch. When I made my Tempranillo, I didn’t add the whole amount and tried to save the unused portion. Perhaps it’s how I stored it but a couple months later it wasn’t white any longer but brown and looked to have melted some.

For this batch, I added the whole contents of the package - more than double what it calls for. Is there a storage solution? Or, do I just factor 25 bucks into the project? And, I should learn how to test if the MLF is done. I’ve seen several test images on this site and haven’t wanted to learn this yet. Now is the time, I think.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 19, 2020)

crushday said:


> Really nice cap this morning and a surprising amount of condensation on the bottom side of the fermenting pot lid. I added the CH16 during the punch down.
> 
> For you that have used CH16, the package says that it’s enough for a 66 gallon batch. When I made my Tempranillo, I didn’t add the whole amount and tried to save the unused portion. Perhaps it’s how I stored it but a couple months later it wasn’t white any longer but brown and looked to have melted some.
> 
> For this batch, I added the whole contents of the package - more than double what it calls for. Is there a storage solution? Or, do I just factor 25 bucks into the project? And, I should learn how to test if the MLF is done. I’ve seen several test images on this sight and haven’t wanted to learn this yet. Now is the time, I think.



Definitely get a chromatography kit. They are surprisingly easy to use.

I'm usually doing anywhere from 12 to 30 gallons at once and just use a whole package. I think some have had success vac sealing and refrigerating or freezing leftovers, but I haven't tried it.


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## Johnd (Mar 19, 2020)

crushday said:


> Really nice cap this morning and a surprising amount of condensation on the bottom side of the fermenting pot lid. I added the CH16 during the punch down.
> 
> For you that have used CH16, the package says that it’s enough for a 66 gallon batch. When I made my Tempranillo, I didn’t add the whole amount and tried to save the unused portion. Perhaps it’s how I stored it but a couple months later it wasn’t white any longer but brown and looked to have melted some.
> 
> For this batch, I added the whole contents of the package - more than double what it calls for. Is there a storage solution? Or, do I just factor 25 bucks into the project? And, I should learn how to test if the MLF is done. I’ve seen several test images on this sight and haven’t wanted to learn this yet. Now is the time, I think.



Personally, I've not ever tried to save / store any, preferring instead to try to coordinate my quantities and timing such that good use is made of the 66 gallon capabilities. That said, I have added it to as little as three carboys in the past, using all of the package, and just bit the bullet. IIRC, some here have divided the contents of a package into two parts before opening and heat sealed the package into two halves, and used only one half, storing the other half in the freezer for another use, don't recall how that turned out.

Chromotography is really easy, get the stuff and do it, you'll pick it up really easily.


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## cmason1957 (Mar 19, 2020)

Chemistry curmudgeon here (or maybe that's Chromotography Curmedgeon). I use the single use malic acid test strips. One drop on the test paper, wait the appropriate amount of time, something like 5 minutes, compare the color to the color on the test strip box. And since I really just care is it complete, just worry does it match the lightest color. They are a little bit (maybe a lot) more expensive than the chromotography kit, but have the benefit that you can read a real number, as in it is between 100 and 50 ppm. With chromotography you do not get that, just is the spot gone. If you are doing one or two, maybe even three or four carboys at a time, it is the way I roll.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 19, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Chemistry curmudgeon here (or maybe that's Chromotography Curmedgeon). I use the single use malic acid test strips. One drop on the test paper, wait the appropriate amount of time, something like 5 minutes, compare the color to the color on the test strip box. And since I really just care is it complete, just worry does it match the lightest color. They are a little bit (maybe a lot) more expensive than the chromotography kit, but have the benefit that you can read a real number, as in it is between 100 and 50 ppm. With chromotography you do not get that, just is the spot gone. If you are doing one or two, maybe even three or four carboys at a time, it is the way I roll.



I just got the SC-50 Malic tester. When I do the spring wines I'd like to see the reading from a finished chromatography. Maybe ever a mid point comparison.


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## CDrew (Mar 19, 2020)

Regarding storage-I used the vacuum sealer between varietals this year and it worked fine. The amount worked out just right as I had about 20 gallons of 1 must and 30 gallons of the other. So I just divided in half with about a week in between. But you need to work fast. Take what you want then reseal, and then back in the freezer before it thaws out.

For my late season tempranillo, I started out with almost 60 gallons of must, and just used the entire packet.

Good to hear things are going so well.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 19, 2020)

This spring I'll probably have 20-25 gallons so I'll just use the entire package. In the fall since all the grapes don't come in or finish at the same time I wait until I have close to the 60 gallons and re hydrate the entire package. Then based on the volume of the carboy I'll put in the appropriate ml of the solution. I believe this was recommended by @Johnd at one point. BTW, I still do post AF MLF.


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## crushday (Mar 19, 2020)

Working home from today allowed me to punch down every 2 hours. I could have punched more often, however. The cap began organizing almost immediately. Starting to smell like wine. Yum...


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## stickman (Mar 20, 2020)

You did use enzymes, so you may want to back off on the punch downs if the skins start to turn to pulp. Remember, pictures or it didn't happen.


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## crushday (Mar 20, 2020)

@stickman I did use enzymes. Still a good cap this morning. I’m getting excited about this wine. Mrs. B and I were lamenting that we wouldn’t really get to enjoy it until late 2022!


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## crushday (Mar 21, 2020)

Update: must 85 degrees and still a nice cap. Only punched down 3 times yesterday. Color looking great as you can see on my cap puncher, eh potato masher...


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## crushday (Mar 21, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> Looks like you added oak cubes?



Jim, just noticed your question this morning. The French oak cubes were recommended by the Crew brothers who own Wine Grapes Direct. The gave me 150gm for the fermentation. 

A couple years ago I fermented some Chardonnay with two heavy oak spirals. Today, it remains my favorite Chardonnay and had another bottle this week. I’ll definitely ferment my next Char the same way.

On the Malbec, time will tell...


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## crushday (Mar 22, 2020)

Update and potential fear: I just punched the cap, still nicely organized but getting softer. Must temp this morning is 87 degrees while the cap is 81 degrees. That’s 1 degree above the specified limits of the yeast. Should I be concerned with a stuck fermentation? Gravity reading is 1.023.

Also, when I made the Tempranillo, it was nine days from start to finish. On the 10th day, I pressed. Today is day 8. Planning ahead, I wouldn’t be considering a press until next weekend - likely Saturday. But, looking for collective wisdom. There’s no rush right? The wine sitting dormant on the skins/lees for a few extra days is of no consequence, right?


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## 1d10t (Mar 22, 2020)

The upper limit of the yeast probably have more to do with flavor profile than yeast health. They like it warm. But, it is also self regulating on that end. If the temps get out of range they will get less active.


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## stickman (Mar 22, 2020)

I don't think 87F is a problem, it probably wont stay there for very long, some people like to take it up to 90F. What seems odd is the cap being a lower temp than the wine, at least that is the opposite of what I typically see. My cap is usually several degrees higher than the liquid below, though you are handling the cap different than I typically do, so that might play a role. Generally I would say there is no rush, with cab blends I go 8 days to 2 weeks, but more and more these days I'd say it depends on the grapes, where they are grown, the level of ripeness, the type of tannins in the seeds etc. You are going to pick up more seed tannin the closer you get to dryness, this can be positive or negative, taste the wine as it's going dry to gain experience with how it develops.


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## crushday (Mar 22, 2020)

@stickman Allow me to enter your classroom. Please, tell me what you do differently with cap management. This is only my second go at actual grapes. I am your Padawan learner...


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## CDrew (Mar 22, 2020)

I think @stickman does a rack and return method, which is kind of a poor man's pump over. Drain the liquid wine off the bottom, and pour it over the cap to return it. THere were some pics in his thread. I stick with the traditional punch down.

And just for the record, I think your temp is ok. I wouldn't want much higher though. You could use a small fan blowing on the outside of the fermentor pot which would cool it a bit. I've done that to keep temps down even when fermenting in brutes.

Stickman's 2019 thread with pics:
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/2019-cab.70580/


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## stickman (Mar 22, 2020)

Thanks for the kind words, but even after all of these years I'm still learning, you've seen my posts, nothing secretive or magical about what I do. I do some punch downs, but most of what I do would be considered pump overs or "delestage". My comment wasn't about one way or the other being better, just different, I was noting the difference in temperature between the cap and the bulk liquid, in my case the cap is always warmer than the liquid. No big deal, it's just my nature, I was trying to figure out why your cap was colder, maybe if you used an IR gun that might explain the difference. Maybe the punch downs are more effective at releasing the juice, therefore your skins aren't holding as much sugar, so possibly there is less fermentation in the cap; just guessing out loud.


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## crushday (Mar 22, 2020)

Let me explain a bit more about how I measured the temperatures. Before I punched the cap, I took a reading. I use Tilt hydrometers which provide both temp and gravity readings, sent to my phone. The reading before the punch down was 81. Because the Tilt is embedded in the cap, this seems like an accurate reading.

After I punched and had the Tilt floating in must the temp was 87. It's plausible that I inverted the readings as I too would think the must would be cooler given that heat rises. I convinced myself the reading was correct considering the cap is like a blanket.

I'll keep learning. I promise...


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## CDrew (Mar 22, 2020)

crushday said:


> There’s no rush right? The wine sitting dormant on the skins/lees for a few extra days is of no consequence, right?



I think once it's basically done, unless you have special refrigeration equipment, you want to get pressed and away from Oxygen as quickly as possible. You're not looking to make vinegar. I like to press as the fermentation is finishing and not let it sit exposed at all.


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## crushday (Mar 24, 2020)

Tomorrow will be press day. Color is fantastic. Early tasting leaves me really happy about the current outcome.


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## crushday (Mar 24, 2020)

I decided to press this afternoon. I’m working from home and didn’t have much going on.

I pumped the wine out of the fermenting pot and got about 11 gallons this way. I then loaded up the press and got 3 more just letting it run through without pressing. After I actually pressed I got 4 more. That’s a total of 18 gallons.

The 1 gallon jugs are what I filled from the press. Before I was to add them to the secondary fermenter, there was a noticeable line where I could tell lees had settled in the pressed jugs. You can see the line in the picture. I pumped the wine out right above the line on each and was able to condense to 5 gallons of clean wine from the press that I added to my secondary fermenter. Everything is under airlock.

I had two bricks of pomace but only took a picture of one. In total I have roughly 6.5 gallons of pressed skins.

I simply poured the lees down the drain and filled up my fermenter.

I’m happy with this project. Wine should be amazing in a couple of years.


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## CDrew (Mar 24, 2020)

Nice color extraction. The losses with the lees are unfortunate, but part of the game.

18 gallons is a nice amount. You can bulk age in a keg or Intellitank, or 3 carboys. 

Looking good though, should be great in the end.


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## Johnd (Mar 24, 2020)

Nice job, looks great!! Little tip for you next time around, try using two fine strainers (one nested inside the other) between your press and funnel. They’ll sift out a significant amount of sediment / lees before the wine gets into your vessel. When the top one starts getting clogged, pull it out (leaving the second in place), clean it, and replace it under the one you left. That way you can keep the flow going as your wine drains from the press. Also, there’s really no need to have separated the lees from the wine in your little vessels, you’re going to do it again in 2 - 3 days anyway, and they’ll be way more compacted by then.


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## crushday (Mar 24, 2020)

@Johnd As with everything, life is a classroom. I learned so much today - what went well and what I would definitely do different. The two fine strainers is a brilliant idea. I will add that to the process for sure. 

First time using a self-priming pump. I used a stainless hops strainer as a free run tube. Worked really slick from the primary to secondary and also to extract the clean wine from the lugs. 

I'm very thankful to have great mentors on WMT!


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fantastic color on that. Agree with John on the strainer. All in all, looks like you had a great afternoon and will have a really nice Malbec on your hands.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 25, 2020)

Probably too late now but if you would remove, loosen and repress the skins you will find with not so much pressure you will be able to extract additional wine. A bit of work for the little you get but with 6.5 gallons of skins I would venture to say you would get an additional 3/4 gallon. I press 3 times and at the end the skins are pretty dry. The wine looks great though.


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## crushday (Mar 25, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Probably too late now but if you would remove, loosen and repress the skins you will find with not so much pressure you will be able to extract additional wine. A bit of work for the little you get but with 6.5 gallons of skins I would venture to say you would get an additional 3/4 gallon. I press 3 times and at the end the skins are pretty dry. The wine looks great though.


Yep, too late Fred. That’s a really good idea to try next time. Thanks for the tip!


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## crushday (Mar 25, 2020)

Here’s a couple pics of where the wine will for the next couple of months. I approximate the conical has 15 gallons, right to the brim. You can see the floating Tilt hydrometer. You can also see little bubbles coming to the surface. Gravity reading was .997 this morning. The three gallon carboy has about two gallons - all together, a little short for three 6gal carboys. I’ll be hitting Steve up for a headspace eliminator! In May I’ll move everything to carboys for a year or so. This wine will see a barrel in July 2021.


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## wxtrendsguy (Mar 26, 2020)

This is the point and going forward you want to get rid of any head space. Top that carboy and conical.


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## crushday (Mar 26, 2020)

wxtrendsguy said:


> This is the point and going forward you want to get rid of any head space. Top that carboy and conical.


Both the conical and the 3 gallon carboy are in MLF right now. Knowing that, is it still your recommendation?


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## Johnd (Mar 26, 2020)

crushday said:


> Both the conical and the 3 gallon carboy are in MLF right now. Knowing that, is it still your recommendation?



After you press, and AF is nearly over, when you do that 3 day racking off of gross lees, that’s the time to eliminate headspace.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2020)

Not that I have any proof it's required but during MLF I always keep my headspace to one inch or less due to the lack of sulfites, usually less than that.


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## crushday (Mar 26, 2020)

@Johnd and @mainshipfred - this is testing all of my previous understanding of the use of an airlock. Theoretically, if the wine is throwing CO2, which is heavier than O2, isn’t the headspace filled with wine preserving CO2? I have both under airlock reporting every 10-12 seconds. 

Just trying to understand.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 26, 2020)

If your MLF is taking a number of weeks, theoretically, the wine could completely degas and leave itself exposed. I also make sure that the wine is topped up, once I rack off the lees a couple days post-press.


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## Johnd (Mar 26, 2020)

crushday said:


> @Johnd and @mainshipfred - this is testing all of my previous understanding of the use of an airlock. Theoretically, if the wine is throwing CO2, which is heavier than O2, isn’t the headspace filled with wine preserving CO2? I have both under airlock reporting every 10-12 seconds.
> 
> Just trying to understand.



Theoretically, this isn't even true, as @sourgrapes has posted many times, there's more of a mixing effect than a settling effect with the gases in the headspace, and this CO2 production will slow and stop soon enough. When your wine is producing large quantities of CO2, your level of protection is much higher than the little bit produced by MLF. As @Boatboy24 noted, once you rack off of the gross lees (2-3 days after pressing), and MLF is continuing, your wine will likely go weeks / months before getting racked and sulfited for the first time, that's why it's good practice to go ahead and get that headspace dealt with at that time.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2020)

You are correct in MLF will give off CO2 although the levels are much smaller than in AF. Perhaps you could compare it to what kit instructions call secondary. The secondary fermenter is always recemmended to be topped up due to the lessened production of CO2. Similar to wine from grapes where MLF is considered secondary. In my opinion the amount of CO2 given off in the lengthly process of MLF is not sufficient to protect the wine. Again, I have no proof.


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## crushday (Mar 26, 2020)

White flag...I give up!

I’ll rack on Saturday and get everything topped up, under lock.

But, it’s a bit of a physics head scratcher for me considering an airlock is essentially a one way valve.

Thanks for weighing in.


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## cmason1957 (Mar 26, 2020)

crushday said:


> White flag...I give up!
> 
> I’ll rack on Saturday and get everything topped up, under lock.
> 
> ...



No head scratching necessary. MLF does give off some CO2, just not nearly as much (probably 1% of the amount or less) as AF gives off. You racked, headspace full of Air now. Some very little bit of CO2 is coming off. It DOES NOT blanket, nothing does really, except for a very short amount of time. It all mixes together. The airlock just keep new outside air from coming in, if you are lucky enough, it isn't a perfectly sealed system and the leaky part is the interface fit between the carboy and the bung.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2020)

crushday said:


> White flag...I give up!
> 
> I’ll rack on Saturday and get everything topped up, under lock.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I can't totally disregard your thoughts, I just would hate to see all that good looking wine go bad.


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## Johnd (Mar 26, 2020)

crushday said:


> White flag...I give up!
> 
> I’ll rack on Saturday and get everything topped up, under lock.
> 
> ...



LOL!!! No need for a white flag, just get topped off!! And remember, even the best airlock / bung assemblies can leak.............


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## CDrew (Mar 26, 2020)

Looking good. But I have to respectfully agree that your carboy should be topped off. Or, that the contents of the carboy distributed into smaller topped off gallons. CO2 will not blanket the surface. As soon as it is released from the wine, there is nothing to prevent it from dispersing in the air generally, which means the O2 in the air, can freely disperse into the CO2.

Now if you could completely fill that space with CO2 and exclude all Oxygen, it would likely be ok for a few days or even a week. But even with a working airlock and good seals, O2 can dissolve into the airlock fluid and find it''s way in small amounts into the headspace. The more surface area you have, the more significant that problem is. Air is bad at this point. You have the least surface area, when your carboy is full.

But white flags not needed. I am totally enjoying someone(you) making a fine wine 6 months offset from everyone else. These frozen buckets look like a very viable option for people without access to grapes in season. Not inexpensive, but a nice looking product.


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## crushday (Mar 26, 2020)

Don’t interpret the flag as a towel thrown. I’m only surrendering to the collective wisdom and raise the white flag of submission. I’d be a fool to ignore the knowledge and understanding of those whom are many months and years ahead of me.

Like many on this site, I am throughly enjoying my journey as a vintner. This string has been very instructive and I’m grateful for everyone who has taken time to offer help.

Much appreciation.


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## wxtrendsguy (Mar 26, 2020)

YES!


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## Johnd (Mar 26, 2020)

crushday said:


> Don’t interpret the flag as a towel thrown. I’m only surrendering to the collective wisdom and raise the white flag of submission. I’d be a fool to ignore the knowledge and understanding of those whom are many months and years ahead of me.
> 
> Like many on this site, I am throughly enjoying my journey as a vintner. This string has been very instructive and I’m grateful for everyone who has taken time to offer help.
> 
> Much appreciation.



Some hard headed people (me) learn best from their own mistakes. Much less painful to learn from others mistakes!!


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## crushday (Apr 9, 2020)

Almost no headspace on this carboy of Malbec! The two others are close but not showing in the airlock like this one.

Still getting activity but slowed drastically.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 9, 2020)

So you are making the assumption that you can trust your airlock not to lie to you. I have found them to be utterly useless in that regard, to many variables, my hyrdrometer reading have never let me down in knowing if things are happening. Airlocks have.


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## crushday (Apr 9, 2020)

Thanks, @cmason1957 ! My hydrometer read .992 when I transferred to carboys and I’m now in the later stages of MLF, I think. I coinoculated with CH-16 the day after I pitched the yeast. I plan on racking this again in late August or early September.

This will find its home in a barrel in July of 2021 for twelve months before taking a long nap in a bottle.


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## Johnd (Apr 9, 2020)

Consider running your chromatography pretty soon, you should be done, or pretty close to it by now. Then you can start your 2 week clock for adding SO2.


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## crushday (May 30, 2020)

Update: Been in a barrel since May 13th, 2020. During top up I snuck a taste. It’s very good. Very excited about this wine. Mrs. B likes it too!


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