# Clearing wine in secondary fermenter?



## kuziwk (Jan 15, 2018)

Does anyone also clear their wines in the secondary fermentor?..so essentially one would degas their wine after secondary fermentation and add the clearing agents remixing the lees...than rack after 4 to 5 days or so In hopes to minimize the racking required and thus saving more wine. It seems that alot of sediment drops after the first few days of clearing especially if placed in a cold environment. Would this impose any off flavors? Im intending to leave the wine in the secondary and there is a good 1/2" of sediment/lees already. The total time in the secondary would not be much more than two weeks...this of course allocates for the 4 to 5 days to drop heavy sediment during clearing. I should also mention there is the odd grape skin leftover from the primary that i sucked up, not alot but a few floaters when i shine a flash light.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

Personally, I like to get my wine off the gross lees asap.I have found that leaving the wine on the lees have given an off taste to my wine.So I would say at your stage to rack. For clearing, I wait 10-14 days after adding clearing agents, then rack. If not using clearing agents, I rack when I see about 1/2 inch or more of lees and rack again as more settles to that amount,usually a few months if no clearing agents used,depending on wine.

If you rack you will probably leave the floaters behind and if a few do make it through, they usually settle during clearing


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> Personally, I like to get my wine off the gross lees asap.I have found that leaving the wine on the lees have given an off taste to my wine.So I would say at your stage to rack. For clearing, I wait 10-14 days after adding clearing agents, then rack. If not using clearing agents, I rack when I see about 1/2 inch or more of lees and rack again as more settles to that amount,usually a few months if no clearing agents used,depending on wine.
> 
> If you rack you will probably leave the floaters behind and if a few do make it through, they usually settle during clearing



Hmm im not sure the lees that the wine is sitting on is considered secondary though. What would it be considered? I thought gross lees waa primarily the bits and peices of grapeskins and seeds and/or stems.


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## bkisel (Jan 16, 2018)

The WE kits I've been doing have instructions for doing like you say except the wine sits for _*two weeks*_ in a *carboy *(that is not topped off so has head space below the neck)*.* I see absolutely no issues with what you're proposing so long as you lock down that secondary for the four days - even considering the head space. Much beyond 4 days and the amount of head space, even locked down, in the secondary bucket would bother me.


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

bkisel said:


> The WE kits I've been doing have instructions for doing like you say except the wine sits for _*two weeks*_ in a *carboy *(that is not topped off so has head space below the neck)*.* I see absolutely no issues with what you're proposing so long as you lock down that secondary for the four days - even considering the head space. Much beyond 4 days and the amount of head space, even locked down, in the secondary bucket would bother me.


Yeah ive got an air lock going. There isba decent amount of headspace since i racked poorly and wasted some wine. Right now its filled with natural co2 in the secondary from fermentation but after i degas ill either top up or fill it with CO2. I have one of those soda streams and i like to go give a wine bottle a few pumps of co2 if its going to sit for a few days. Im sure the same would work on the carboy provided i have the airlock on tight.


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## bkisel (Jan 16, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> Yeah ive got an air lock going. There isba decent amount of headspace since i racked poorly and wasted some wine. Right now its filled with natural co2 in the secondary from fermentation but after i degas ill either top up or fill it with CO2. I have one of those soda streams and i like to go give a wine bottle a few pumps of co2 if its going to sit for a few days. Im sure the same would work on the carboy provided i have the airlock on tight.




I suspect that in spite of your degassing the wine would still have enough CO2 to give off for the 4 days so as not to worry about the head space. Again, at least some WE kits have you clearing for two weeks in a carboy not having been topped off. The RJS kits I do on the other hand have instructions to do much like @vernsgal posted above.


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## Donatelo (Jan 16, 2018)

After racking off the gross lees into a carboy, you could top it up with a like style of wine. As little head space as 1" to 2".


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

bkisel said:


> I suspect that in spite of your degassing the wine would still have enough CO2 to give off for the 4 days so as not to worry about the head space. Again, at least some WE kits have you clearing for two weeks in a carboy not having been topped off. The RJS kits I do on the other hand have instructions to do much like @vernsgal posted above.


Likely yeah, ill try not to degas as long i suppose since ill need to bulk age for a bit due to the fact i have no wine bottles left. Im filtering aswell which seems to degas even more. The instructions actually say to complete in the secondary fermentor for 10 days, they even said you can leave it an extra week after which you degass and add in the clearing agents than let it sit until day 42 all on the lees leftover from secondary. Why they suggest that makes me nervous though especially since i have a few floaters. I highly suspect that mine will be done secondary easily after a week since my primary fermentation went very quick and it had a SG of around 1 when i racked into the carboy after 7 days. So i can clear the wine at that point and wait a few days...ill even put in a cooler place than rack after a few more days out of the secondary.

@Donatelo i will be topping off with similar wine but because i wasted some wine ill likely need a good 4 bottles. Also i wont be buying carmenere to top off it will be a cheaper cab sav lol. At the end of the day i doubt it will change the taste much at all. On a side note i got 31 bottles out of my last carboy on another batch and it was probably at least 3" from the bung...so basically right before it touches the narrow neck....not to shabby.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> Hmm im not sure the lees that the wine is sitting on is considered secondary though. What would it be considered? I thought gross lees waa primarily the bits and peices of grapeskins and seeds and/or stems.


That's exactly what gross lees are. I consider when you rack from you're primary you're racking into your secondary. I've read that some wine makers leave the lees in for longer periods of time to create different flavors to their wines but that it's done with with the finer lees.I think it's called sur lie aging?


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> That's exactly what gross lees are. I consider when you rack from you're primary you're racking into your secondary. I've read that some wine makers leave the lees in for longer periods of time to create different flavors to their wines but that it's done with with the finer lees.I think it's called sur lie aging?



yeah ive done some reading on sur lie aging, not typically what im after. Yes so i racked from primary into the secondary but the instructions basically said to stir everyday in the primary until you are ready to rack. In essence alot of the lees did not get alot of time to settle before i racked into the secondary, i also wasted some wine in the process in an attempt to leave as much of the sediment as i could. All this stems from not using the mesh bag with the solids and the difficulty i had trying to rack from the solid seeds and skins. I should have just dumped all the wine in the carboy even with the sediment and racked again in a few days. There is really no solids at the bottom and just a few floating grape skins in the middle of the wine. I would suspect that the few solids there are that are floating would be preserved by the alcohol by the time secondary is complete and waiting a few days for the bulk of the sediment post de-gassing and clearing to drop out. Thats what im hoping to do anyways to save an extra rack from secondary and into a clearing vessel as in my experience which is limited, a large amount of sediment drops within the first few days of degassing and adding the clearing agents. 

An example below:

Primary Fermentation= Total 8 days and SG 1.0
Secondary Fermentation (racked to new carboy)= Day 8-15 (hoping to be complete on day 15)
De-gass and clearing (in same carboy as secondary)= Day 15-18
Clearing (rack into new carboy)=Day 18-42

Sorry im probably just overthinking this as its not rocket science,i just dont want to mess up my first premium kit that i've ever done. I did two cheap costco kits (the 7L concentrates) before this, they turned out well...The second turned out the best since i added in a couple tablespoons of wine tannin in the clearing and aging stage and cracked pepper during primary fermentation.


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## bkisel (Jan 16, 2018)

Is this a kit you're doing?


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

bkisel said:


> Is this a kit you're doing?



Yeah it is with the genuwine grapeskin packs. The wine kit place i bought it from, she told me she perferrs to dump everything in the primary....i wont be doing that again ill be using the mesh.

Excuse my brevity as its hard to type on my phone.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

What kit are you doing? I'm not aware of one that has you stir primary daily until racking.


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> What kit are you doing? I'm not aware of one that has you stir primary daily until racking.


Its the cellar craft showcase. If i were to guess i would say my secondary has about 1/2" of lees at the bottom.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

ok. I see what happened maybe. You didn't put your grapeskins in the mesh bag so while stirring every day, it didn't allow for them to settle.No worries. If you 
have now racked to your secondary and have added the enzyme pouch, just allow it to sit until day 20 as per instructions' Everything should settle (do not stir)
When you get to day 20, rack carefully and continue with the degassing and clearing. While it sits until (I think it's day 42 ) if any *floaters were still in it it will settle in this time. 
Just follow instructions and you should be fine


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> ok. I see what happened maybe. You didn't put your grapeskins in the mesh bag so while stirring every day, it didn't allow for them to settle.No worries. If you
> have now racked to your secondary and have added the enzyme pouch, just allow it to sit until day 20 as per instructions' Everything should settle (do not stir)
> When you get to day 20, rack carefully and continue with the degassing and clearing. While it sits until (I think it's day 42 ) if any *floaters were still in it it will settle in this time.
> Just follow instructions and you should be fine



Yeah so the big question is if i should clear and degass in the secondary a few days before i rack again out of the secondary. This way alot of the sediment will drop out in a few days. The end result would be to minimize more racking down the road and waste less wine since i wasted more than i felt should have already. The downside is im mixing in the already settled lees in the secondary and leaving it for a few more days to settle out. The instructions say to do this and basically leave it until day 42 in that same secondary fermenter. Which is strange considering they tell you to mix the must daily prior to racking to secondary this would allow more lees in the secondary than if not stirring the must. The instructions are very misleading.

I just read the RJS premier wine kit which i understand is in the same league as the cellar craft showcase and they basically say to complete secondary fermentation than rack again in another carboy for clearing...than obviously rack again whenever it hits day 42.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

Are you at the date yet to add clearing agents? what's your SG? I pulled up the instructions for your wine,just so I'm sure on things, and it does say you can allow it to sit up to a week longer if needed for wine to reach appropriate SG.I would let it sit a while longer then rack to your pail to degas.(*I also find it easier to add clearing agents before racking back to carboy)Watch your days though. It hasn't been treated with potassium metabisulphite so you don't want to go too long.
If you're really worried about losing more wine with the extra racking, you could always add the potassium metabisulphite ,( BUT only if your wine has gone dry! Check your SG 1st.)and allow it to sit a week or more before the racking and degassing and clearing stage.(if you do decide this route, add the potassium metabisulphite to some of your wine and mix before putting in carboy.)
I still would advise against Degassing and adding clearing agents while it's sitting on that much gross lees.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> Which is strange considering they tell you to mix the must daily prior to racking to secondary this would allow more lees in the secondary than if not stirring the must. The instructions are very misleading.


I think the part that kinda threw a bit of extras in is that you didn't use the bag and if you had you wouldn't have the amount of gross lees that you do.It's not hard to fix, it's just a shame you lost the amount of wine you did.
If your wine is dry and at the stage where you were to add the potassium metabisulphite, do so now. Then allow it to sit and lees to settle .Then Rack into you're primary pail, degass, add clearing agents, rack back to carboy and allow to sit for 2 weeks.

If your wine is not at SG yet allow it to go dry, then wait til SG is below .998 and stays the same for 3 consecutive days, then rack and continue with instructions at degassing stage.

Or rack into primary and continue with degassing instructions.

You have to do an extra racking because of the loose grapeskins


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> I think the part that kinda threw a bit of extras in is that you didn't use the bag and if you had you wouldn't have the amount of gross lees that you do.It's not hard to fix, it's just a shame you lost the amount of wine you did.
> If your wine is dry and at the stage where you were to add the potassium metabisulphite, do so now. Then allow it to sit and lees to settle .Then Rack into you're primary pail, degass, add clearing agents, rack back to carboy and allow to sit for 2 weeks.
> 
> If your wine is not at SG yet allow it to go dry, then wait til SG is below .998 and stays the same for 3 consecutive days, then rack and continue with instructions at degassing stage.
> ...



Alright thanks, yeah its unfortunate but the extra racking will lose more wine but at least i wont ruin the whole batch as it would if i had an off taste from the lees. I hope adding in a good 4 bottles back to top off will not throw off the taste noticeable as im not prepared to spend $30-$40 a bottle to get carmenere to top it off...it will be a cheap cab sav that i use. Yeah taxes in Canada suck, lol thus the need to make my own wine.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

oh a fellow Canadian. Me too. I'm in BC ,where are you?


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

And just another thought on your wine..You could always invest in a 5 gal carboy and when you rack,rack into that. It'll be handy to have for other wines too, because I know there will be more lol, that drop a lot of lees.


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## ceeaton (Jan 16, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> ...it will be a cheap cab sav that i use.


 I use a boxed Cab Sauv to top up with. Unless you have to top up an awful lot, it shouldn't change the character of the wine in your kit. Just make sure that if the kit comes with Potassium Sorbate, that you don't add it unless there is a sweetening pack. At that point you don't want to top up with a commercial wine that may have gone through a malolactic fermentation, as it may make your wine taste or smell like bubble gum. I'm assuming a Carmenere kit wouldn't be sweetened but kept dry, so you should be okay. I've noticed that the red wine kits I get still include sorbate whether or not it is needed to stop yeast reproduction once the sweetening agent is added from an off-dry kit.


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## benchmstr (Jan 16, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> Does anyone also clear their wines in the secondary fermentor?..so essentially one would degas their wine after secondary fermentation and add the clearing agents remixing the lees...than rack after 4 to 5 days or so In hopes to minimize the racking required and thus saving more wine. It seems that alot of sediment drops after the first few days of clearing especially if placed in a cold environment. Would this impose any off flavors? Im intending to leave the wine in the secondary and there is a good 1/2" of sediment/lees already. The total time in the secondary would not be much more than two weeks...this of course allocates for the 4 to 5 days to drop heavy sediment during clearing. I should also mention there is the odd grape skin leftover from the primary that i sucked up, not alot but a few floaters when i shine a flash light.


I personally give it at least 10 days to rack out of the secondary after adding a clearing agent..ive tried shorter, and longer with all types of products...but the sweet spot for me is always 10 days.

keep in mind, your mileage will vary...my recipes and techniques may contribute heavily to the 10 days...as would anyone else's

the bench


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## pillswoj (Jan 16, 2018)

I also think you should pick up a 5 gal carboy, most of my better kits I rack down to 5 gals putting the leftover in 1.5 litre bottles. I don't like topping up if I can avoid it.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

If you have to top up more than a liter, taste will change.I've read that most kits are made with the allowance of up to a liter of water for top ups. Personally I use wine but if it's more than 1, I rack down. Check Kijiji etc and see if you can find 5gal.


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> oh a fellow Canadian. Me too. I'm in BC ,where are you?


Alberta, my parents live in BC though.


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> I use a boxed Cab Sauv to top up with. Unless you have to top up an awful lot, it shouldn't change the character of the wine in your kit. Just make sure that if the kit comes with Potassium Sorbate, that you don't add it unless there is a sweetening pack. At that point you don't want to top up with a commercial wine that may have gone through a malolactic fermentation, as it may make your wine taste or smell like bubble gum. I'm assuming a Carmenere kit wouldn't be sweetened but kept dry, so you should be okay. I've noticed that the red wine kits I get still include sorbate whether or not it is needed to stop yeast reproduction once the sweetening agent is added from an off-dry kit.


Yes ive been putting in the sorbate and will never do a sweet wine as i hate it...always dry. Skip the sorbate than?


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## pillswoj (Jan 16, 2018)

Cool, I have an uncle in Alberta, I'm in Ontario


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

never use sorbate unless you're sweetening. yes skip it. 
Where in BC are your parents?


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> Cool, I have an uncle in Alberta, I'm in Ontario


Are you any where near where RJ Spagnols moved to? They used to be here in Burnaby,BC, but moved to Ontario a few years ago. I used to get some great prices on their kits when they put their sales on


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> Are you any where near where RJ Spagnols moved to? They used to be here in Burnaby,BC, but moved to Ontario a few years ago. I used to get some great prices on their kits when they put their sales on


Yeah not sure about rj spagnols. My parents are in west kelowna...wine country. Always visit the wineries when i go, mission hill and dirty laundry are the favorites of my wife and i, lol.


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## pillswoj (Jan 16, 2018)

They are about 10 mins from where I work, but have never been to their office, not sure if they even do retail out of it. I deal with a local shop near my home for the kits.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> They are about 10 mins from where I work, but have never been to their office, not sure if they even do retail out of it. I deal with a local shop near my home for the kits.


They actually have the whole plant out there where they make the kits.You should check it out some time. If they do still sell their kits themselves you can get some great deals or if your local shop is a Spagnol's retailer they can usually pass the same sales to you.


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## pillswoj (Jan 16, 2018)

I will have to check it out. Thanks


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

vernsgal said:


> They actually have the whole plant out there where they make the kits.You should check it out some time. If they do still sell their kits themselves you can get some great deals or if your local shop is a Spagnol's retailer they can usually pass the same sales to you.


They have an online store? At any rate ive attached some pics of the wine in talks...i just tested the sg and its about sg 0.980 or .990 ish...im planning on leaving it until friday and doing the clearing than whether or not i rack it than and clear or clear and degas friday in same carboy and rack again on sunday. It tastes really good so far, just a very slight tang of sweetness that will ferment out by than i imagine. You can see the sediment in the first picture.


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## vernsgal (Jan 16, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> They have an online store? At any rate ive attached some pics of the wine in talks...i just tested the sg and its about sg 0.980 or .990 ish...im planning on leaving it until friday and doing the clearing than whether or not i rack it than and clear or clear and degas friday in same carboy and rack again on sunday. It tastes really good so far, just a very slight tang of sweetness that will ferment out by than i imagine.


I don't think they sell on line but I do know there are Spagnol retailers in Alberta.
Check the SG on Friday. If it's the same then it's done. If it's dropped lower, wait
With that much head space and then racking I would definitely suggest racking to a 5 gal. I know it may cost but it'll be worth it later. And you're going to spend on 4 bottles to top, well instead, put that towards an investment on carboy and a much more truer tasting wine,Just my thoughts


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## kuziwk (Jan 16, 2018)

benchmstr said:


> I personally give it at least 10 days to rack out of the secondary after adding a clearing agent..ive tried shorter, and longer with all types of products...but the sweet spot for me is always 10 days.
> 
> keep in mind, your mileage will vary...my recipes and techniques may contribute heavily to the 10 days...as would anyone else's
> 
> the bench


Sorry just to clarify but you degass and clear for 10 days in the secondary fermenter following completion of secondary fermentation before racking? So effectively remixing the lees from secondary and letting it sit for 10 days.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 16, 2018)

With so much lees and conflicting instructions I’d just go with your gut here. 
Instructions are suggestions anyway right? so nothing would be wrong. 
I’d rack 1st, then degas, clear, stabilize and let sit for a week or 2 before racking and putting to bed. 
And be sure to get it into a proper sized vessel or topped up at that point. 
**in the future On skins kits you can rack a couple days into secondary to get rid of the big stuff. And then not rack again until stabilizing and putting to rest. 
I always like to fall back to @salcoco 3-3-3 racking method whenever in doubt. 
3 days after primary - 3 weeks after that - 3 months concurring after that.


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## kuziwk (Jan 17, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> With so much lees and conflicting instructions I’d just go with your gut here.
> Instructions are suggestions anyway right? so nothing would be wrong.
> I’d rack 1st, then degas, clear, stabilize and let sit for a week or 2 before racking and putting to bed.
> And be sure to get it into a proper sized vessel or topped up at that point.
> ...


I think im going to blend my wine with a few bottles of petite syrah, i heard it ls common with carmenere. I'll use my bon vuno to rack it than as it seems to get more wine from the bottom and it will also help degas it i think.


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## benchmstr (Jan 21, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> Sorry just to clarify but you degass and clear for 10 days in the secondary fermenter following completion of secondary fermentation before racking? So effectively remixing the lees from secondary and letting it sit for 10 days.


I ferment dry in the primary...I feel most people do this...once its in secondary its done...at the point its in secondary I add my sorbate, kmeta, and finer and degass

the bench


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## kuziwk (Jan 22, 2018)

benchmstr said:


> I ferment dry in the primary...I feel most people do this...once its in secondary its done...at the point its in secondary I add my sorbate, kmeta, and finer and degass
> 
> the bench


Yeah so i ended up using the buon vino to pump the wine which seemed to save a but more wine than an autosiphon...it also helped to degas it. I added the clearing agents already and topped up with 4 bottles of a half decent shiraz. So camenere blend it is now, tasting excellent so far. Came out with a surpising peach note but that is subsiding and the spice and smoke are coming through. Do you frement until dry in the primary even if the kit tells you otherwise? I think the main reason they have you rack it is to get it off the gross lees. However, all the kits ive done so far have been frementing pretty fast and usually reach 0.998 by day 10 or so.I always taste and get the wife to taste to see if its sweet before i clear. The amarone im frementing right now says to rack at 1.10...ill probably follow the directions on this kit. On a side note after 4-5 days i put an airlock on the primary frementer pale which is probably an sg of 1.2 or 1.3 by than


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## benchmstr (Jan 22, 2018)

kuziwk said:


> Yeah so i ended up using the buon vino to pump the wine which seemed to save a but more wine than an autosiphon...it also helped to degas it. I added the clearing agents already and topped up with 4 bottles of a half decent shiraz. So camenere blend it is now, tasting excellent so far. Came out with a surpising peach note but that is subsiding and the spice and smoke are coming through. Do you frement until dry in the primary even if the kit tells you otherwise? I think the main reason they have you rack it is to get it off the gross lees. However, all the kits ive done so far have been frementing pretty fast and usually reach 0.998 by day 10 or so.I always taste and get the wife to taste to see if its sweet before i clear. The amarone im frementing right now says to rack at 1.10...ill probably follow the directions on this kit. On a side note after 4-5 days i put an airlock on the primary frementer pale which is probably an sg of 1.2 or 1.3 by than


no matter what the directions say, I rack when dry.....and topped off with 4 bottles????? Jesus Christ!! are we talking full sized 750ml bottles??

the bench


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## sour_grapes (Jan 22, 2018)

benchmstr said:


> and topped off with 4 bottles????? Jesus Christ!! are we talking full sized 750ml bottles??



 Line overheard at the Wedding Feast at Cana?


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## kuziwk (Jan 22, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Line overheard at the Wedding Feast at Cana?


Yes long story, the lesson for today is use the muslin bags for your grape skins packs, lol.


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## kuziwk (Jan 22, 2018)

benchmstr said:


> no matter what the directions say, I rack when dry.....and topped off with 4 bottles????? Jesus Christ!! are we talking full sized 750ml bottles??
> 
> the bench



Also forgot to ask, are you not concerned about getting it off the gross lees/ skins if added?


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