# First year vines, fall maintenance help



## JCBurg (Sep 1, 2018)

its getting late in the season, an this is my first planting. My vines did not do great at all but some got up to the trellis wire and some didn’t. I heard you should trim the one that didn’t make it back to about two buds, is this true and when should it be done? Also should I leave the ones on the wire over the winter? And just prune the canes?


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## shrewsbury (Sep 1, 2018)

you do not want to trim till they are fully dormant. I do mine in february.
you should cut all 1st year vines back to about two buds


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## JCBurg (Sep 3, 2018)

shrewsbury said:


> you do not want to trim till they are fully dormant. I do mine in february.
> you should cut all 1st year vines back to about two buds


So that’s true then? And all of them really? If you don’t mind my asking does it make them stronger to regrow from the ground up? Also we are talking about two buds up from the ground, right? It’s probably a very novice question I know but I just want to be clear about it is all. Also these are northern grapes in the north, I don’t know if I can wait till February, because it’ll be snowy long before that, how do you know they are dormant?


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## balatonwine (Sep 4, 2018)

JCBurg said:


> It’s probably a very novice question I know but I just want to be clear about it is all. Also these are northern grapes in the north, I don’t know if I can wait till February, because it’ll be snowy long before that, how do you know they are dormant?



One normally waits until the end of winter, as there may be some winter damage to canes,. buds, spurs or cordons. So you wait and cut those damaged plant parts off first during late winter pruning. If you prune before winter, and your canes or spurs or cordons have winter damage, you may loose some productive output form the vines as you have nothing left to make corrective action after any winter damage.

Plants normally go dormant as the temps approach freezing. In theory, you can trim any time at that point if you are willing to risk the above winter damage. I know a vineyard here that prunes all their vines in late fall-early winter. Which is fine, if one expects little to no winter damage for example. It is up to you to decide what is best. There are even composite options like double pruning. There are many resources online about pruning. A wealth of good information available there. I do suggest you consult these diverse source.


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## Masbustelo (Sep 4, 2018)

JCburg Balatonwine is in a warmer climate than you are, so his winter comes to an end sooner than yours, so he prunes sooner. I'm South of you in Illinois and pruned March 15th this year, it was plenty early. I believe his point is that he doesn't prune in the fall.


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## shrewsbury (Sep 5, 2018)

I am in northern ohio, less than a mile from lake erie. I prune in february, and yes there is snow on the ground when I do my dormant pruning


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## keverman (Oct 7, 2018)

Questions for first year vines: A new planting of Marquette in Northern Ohio, and they have gone crazy. They completely filled the trellis in both directions (multiple canes) and the trunks are all at least 1/2" thick. Is there such a thing as a second year crop? I always read to let them go wild the first year for best root development, but should I have controlled this somewhat? It's beginning of October; can I do some pruning and training now while still pliable or would pruning this late leave open for winter damage due to unhealed wounds?


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## Masbustelo (Oct 7, 2018)

I would say that most of the articles written about not harvesting the second year are related to Vinifera varieties. Note that in California and on the West coast they have poor foothill soils and always are irrigating and talking about irrigating. My opinion is that the Northern Hybrids are much more vigorous genetically. Also Eastern soils tend to be much more fertile and receive much more rainfall. I have Petite Pearl and not Marquette. I ran into the same situation. I didn't crop the second year and the vines went crazy with growth. I had some "cordons" 20 feet long. I would plan on at least partial cropping to hold back excess vigor. To me there is very little in common between Northern Hybrids and traditional Vinifera from a horticultural perspective.


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## keverman (Oct 7, 2018)

Thank you!


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## CK55 (Oct 8, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> I would say that most of the articles written about not harvesting the second year are related to Vinifera varieties. Note that in California and on the West coast they have poor foothill soils and always are irrigating and talking about irrigating. My opinion is that the Northern Hybrids are much more vigorous genetically. Also Eastern soils tend to be much more fertile and receive much more rainfall. I have Petite Pearl and not Marquette. I ran into the same situation. I didn't crop the second year and the vines went crazy with growth. I had some "cordons" 20 feet long. I would plan on at least partial cropping to hold back excess vigor. To me there is very little in common between Northern Hybrids and traditional Vinifera from a horticultural perspective.


Yeah, I only irrigate my vines more in California because Sandy soil do not hold water. It drains so well you require more frequent watering.


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## keverman (Oct 9, 2018)

Would it be terrible to prune and train some of this wild growth now? I am wondering if I should because it would be that much more woody by the end of winter?


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## KevinL (Oct 20, 2018)

I have no idea if it would be bad, but I wonder what the point would be. Might as well let the leaves drop and take care of it all at once in winter when you do your normal pruning. Presumably you're not going to see any more growth this year. I've always found it is easier to keep track of which shoot goes to which vine in the winter time.


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## Newine (Oct 20, 2018)

keverman said:


> Would it be terrible to prune and train some of this wild growth now? I am wondering if I should because it would be that much more woody by the end of winter?


I would let it go fully dormant and prune late winter, never read anywhere to do otherwise.


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## CK55 (Oct 20, 2018)

KevinL said:


> I have no idea if it would be bad, but I wonder what the point would be. Might as well let the leaves drop and take care of it all at once in winter when you do your normal pruning. Presumably you're not going to see any more growth this year. I've always found it is easier to keep track of which shoot goes to which vine in the winter time.


Funny thing is it's the 20rh of October and people are still harvesting grapes here in California and my vines haven't slowed or stopped growing yet. But year 1 is about over. It will be great to get into year 2, the sooner the better so I can get the vines ready to produce.


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## JCBurg (Mar 21, 2019)

Well this thread went dormant for a while BUT, after a brutal winter in the Midwest I’m excited to see if any of my poorly planted grapevines are still alive. I aim to use this thread to update and conversate as the season progresses. 

I have educated myself quite a bit over the winter and yes I did a very poor job planting, but I hope that they are plants and will just grow and that I didn’t do too bad.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 27, 2019)

JCBurg said:


> Well this thread went dormant for a while BUT, after a brutal winter in the Midwest I’m excited to see if any of my poorly planted grapevines are still alive. I aim to use this thread to update and conversate as the season progresses.
> 
> I have educated myself quite a bit over the winter and yes I did a very poor job planting, but I hope that they are plants and will just grow and that I didn’t do too bad.


Grapes are hardy if you spray them and keep away disease they generally will do what they need to with minor intervention from you.

What did you plant and how cold did it get? 
That will give us and idea on if you planted the wrong grapes for your area.


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## JCBurg (Mar 28, 2019)

CabEnthusiast said:


> Grapes are hardy if you spray them and keep away disease they generally will do what they need to with minor intervention from you.
> 
> What did you plant and how cold did it get?
> That will give us and idea on if you planted the wrong grapes for your area.


I planted Foch and Marquette which are grapes for my growing region but, I did a poor job of trenching and making a hole for good root establishment. Plus it was wet last year.
My primary concern is that it got down to -50 or around there a few times and we had some very hard freezes, and they weren’t looking to hot when I checked them the other day.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 28, 2019)

JCBurg said:


> I planted Foch and Marquette which are grapes for my growing region but, I did a poor job of trenching and making a hole for good root establishment. Plus it was wet last year.
> My primary concern is that it got down to -50 or around there a few times and we had some very hard freezes, and they weren’t looking to hot when I checked them the other day.


That is below even the tolerances of those grapes, hard freezes like that probably did a lot of damage to the vines because those are tolerant to -35.


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## JCBurg (Mar 29, 2019)

CabEnthusiast said:


> That is below even the tolerances of those grapes, hard freezes like that probably did a lot of damage to the vines because those are tolerant to -35.


Yeah and that’s what I am afraid of. I am going to check for any bud swell this weekend but what a disaster if I lose them all.


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## KevinL (Mar 29, 2019)

I'm not too far from you and had similar temperatures. My Frontenac has shown a little damage thus far. The Itasca and Petite Pearl I have barely looked like it took any damage from the cold. I don't have any Foch or Marquette for comparison, but you may be in better shape than you think. Prep for the worst, and hope for the best!


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## JCBurg (Mar 29, 2019)

KevinL said:


> I'm not too far from you and had similar temperatures. My Frontenac has shown a little damage thus far. The Itasca and Petite Pearl I have barely looked like it took any damage from the cold. I don't have any Foch or Marquette for comparison, but you may be in better shape than you think. Prep for the worst, and hope for the best!


That’s good news, my friend! Thanks for the encouragement! I’ll let y’all know what happens


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## JCBurg (Mar 30, 2019)

So to anyone watching this thread I am wondering if this is powdery mildew on my buds? If so what should I do about it or how do I treat it?


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 31, 2019)

To be honest, the vine looks dead. Try cutting back a little at a time and see if there is green under the bark. Or scratch a few places, starting from the top down looking for green. You wouldn't see mildew at this time of year. It's kind of like me and prefers warmer weather.


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## JCBurg (Mar 31, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> To be honest, the vine looks dead. Try cutting back a little at a time and see if there is green under the bark. Or scratch a few places, starting from the top down looking for green. You wouldn't see mildew at this time of year. It's kind of like me and prefers warmer weather.


Well that’s good news about the mildew, as for the vine they got hit hard by the Arctic temps this winter. I am trying to wait until we don’t have freezing temps over night, but then I will trim them back


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## JCBurg (Apr 7, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> To be honest, the vine looks dead. Try cutting back a little at a time and see if there is green under the bark. Or scratch a few places, starting from the top down looking for green. You wouldn't see mildew at this time of year. It's kind of like me and prefers warmer weather.


Well so I pruned one back and sure enough had some nice green wood! My 2 year old vines not so much though. I’m hoping there might be a fresh bud under the soil but time will tell. I’m thinking about going ahead and pruning them all back. Frost danger seems past.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 7, 2019)

Let us know how the season progresses. Are any of the vines grafted?


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## JCBurg (Apr 7, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> Let us know how the season progresses. Are any of the vines grafted?


All of them, from double A vineyard, I’m pretty sure. I don’t think I inspected them very closely when they arrived though. I’ll update again when the buds break!


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 7, 2019)

make sure to pinch off anything below the graft.


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## JCBurg (Apr 8, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> make sure to pinch off anything below the graft.


Is that because it’s a different grape?


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 8, 2019)

JCBurg said:


> Is that because it’s a different grape?



Yes, you don't want to allow the root stock to send up it's own canes. The root stock would prefer to use it's own growth and not that of the graft, especially if the graft growth is stressed. So make the vine use the grafted section. It may not be as vigorous as nature would prefer, but it should produce the proper grapes.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 8, 2019)

At this point, you should focus on root and cane growth. Train the canes to the trellis system used, and pinch off all inflorescence (baby grapes) found. Make the vine do what you want it to do, but making it healthy is your highest priority. A healthy vine can tolerate a lot, but a sick one can not. Since you are growing varieties suitable for the Top Wire Cordon system, start training them to the top wire. I'll include a couple of pics I took of young, second year vines. These are a series of 5 images taken over the season showing good growth. These vines are second year vines planted last year (May 2018). Hopefully, this will help visualize for you. (Same vines shot from different angles and the back fence did move during the season).


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## JCBurg (Aug 1, 2019)

So for anyone still watching this thread, I am very happy to report that ALL of my vines made it! Although 2 of them didn’t actually come out of the ground until early July (imagine my elation when they did) they all survived the ridiculous winter and even more ridiculous planting they were subjected to. Talk about a hearty plant, I love grapevines even more now!


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## JCBurg (Aug 1, 2019)

So for anyone still watching this thread, I am very happy to report that ALL of my vines made it! Although 2 of them didn’t actually come out of the ground until early July (imagine my elation when they did) they all survived the ridiculous winter and even more ridiculous planting they were subjected to. Talk about a hearty plant, I love grapevines even more now!


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## Kilohertz (Aug 1, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> At this point, you should focus on root and cane growth. Train the canes to the trellis system used, and pinch off all inflorescence (baby grapes) found. Make the vine do what you want it to do, but making it healthy is your highest priority. A healthy vine can tolerate a lot, but a sick one can not. Since you are growing varieties suitable for the Top Wire Cordon system, start training them to the top wire. I'll include a couple of pics I took of young, second year vines. These are a series of 5 images taken over the season showing good growth. These vines are second year vines planted last year (May 2018). Hopefully, this will help visualize for you. (Same vines shot from different angles and the back fence did move during the season).



Hi Dennis,

I love the look of your vineyard, nice flat acreage and well laid out. What is your plant spacing? From the pics it looks like about 6' but could be an optical illusion. I am planting this weekend and figuring out what to put where. I have a plethora of posts, wire and irrigation, but not the wide open space you have. It's 20 acres but broken up into small sections with about 1 acre uasable, with a steep unusable mountain to the back.

Just curious, thanks.

Paul

JC glad your plants made it thru the winter, sounds like it was brutal. We have -20C here for a few days a year, otherwise it's -10C or so for Dec/Jan, then hovers around -5C +/- 8 or so Feb/Mar.


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## JCBurg (Aug 1, 2019)

Thanks buddy, I appreciate it! Poor plants didn’t just tough out the (yes very brutal) winter, but they did it with the poorly established root structure of a dangerously novice viticulturist


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## JCBurg (Aug 1, 2019)

Thanks buddy, I appreciate it! Poor plants didn’t just tough out the (yes very brutal) winter, but they did it with the poorly established root structure of a dangerously novice viticulturist


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 1, 2019)

JCBurg said:


> Thanks buddy, I appreciate it! Poor plants didn’t just tough out the (yes very brutal) winter, but they did it with the poorly established root structure of a dangerously novice viticulturist



Good news. Keep it up and you'll have grapes.


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## BigH (Aug 1, 2019)

JCBurg said:


> Although 2 of them didn’t actually come out of the ground...



Didn't you say all your vines were grafted? If so, then wouldn't that imply that shoots emanating from the ground are rootstock suckers and not shoots from the variety you planted?

H


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 1, 2019)

Kilohertz said:


> Hi Dennis,
> 
> I love the look of your vineyard, nice flat acreage and well laid out. What is your plant spacing? From the pics it looks like about 6' but could be an optical illusion. I am planting this weekend and figuring out what to put where. I have a plethora of posts, wire and irrigation, but not the wide open space you have. It's 20 acres but broken up into small sections with about 1 acre uasable, with a steep unusable mountain to the back.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your complement. After all the hard work, the best one can hope for is notice from your fellow grape growers (and a few grapes). Spacing depends on variety. All of my TWC vines (America, Buffalo, Concord, and Sheridan) are set at 7.5 feet apart. They could be anywhere from 6 to 8 feet, by the book. You would set them at 6 foot if you wanted to push for quantity, or at 8 foot for quality. I set my Cab Franc at 5 foot apart. If you google Double A vineyards, they have great info on spacing, trellis type, fighting disease and pests, etc. But they are an eastern outfit and you may want to look for someone more familiar with your region. Spacing will be the space regardless of where you are. A wise person once said (on this forum) that you can make bad wine from good grapes, but you can't make good wine from bad grapes. This is indeed sage advice and one of the reasons i allow for more space.


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 1, 2019)

PS. I also set the rows 15 apart so that I can move my tractors and different mowers through easily.


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## Dennis Griffith (Aug 1, 2019)

BigH said:


> Didn't you say all your vines were grafted? If so, then wouldn't that imply that shoots emanating from the ground are rootstock suckers and not shoots from the variety you planted?
> 
> H



Good catch. You may have lost your graft. Sorry.


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## Kilohertz (Aug 2, 2019)

Dennis, Thank you again for the advice. My rows are already set at 8' apart because of the original transplants, and it's enough space to get my excavator in to do some weeding. 

I will look at my layout again this weekend and probably go with 8' spacing between plants. I can always put more vines in a different area.

I don't want to hijack the thread any further, thanks for your guidance.

JC you are not the only one to mess up planting....From another torturer of fine vines. Check out my thread from 2017 about transplanting old vines.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/thre...nts-stumps-with-new-shoots-help-needed.57335/

Cheers

Paul


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## KevinL (Aug 2, 2019)

Odds are your Marquette are not grafted (I'm not aware of any reason to do so in your region, and not aware of any nursery that sells grafted Marquette vines). I'm not as familiar with Foch. I know you can purchase them grafted. If you still have it, you can check your original order receipt. It should indicate if it was grafted, and what kind of rootstock it is on (IE 101-14 or 3309). If it is grafted, and you have shoots coming up from the ground then you're getting the rootstock and not Foch.

A lot of my hybrid vines pushed out vigorous shoots from the ground level in their second year. It's not uncommon to see this. I turned a few of those shoots into trunks. Good luck!


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## BigH (Aug 2, 2019)

Double A does not currently list grafted foch or marquette, so hopefully he is ok.

*update:* I was wrong, they do list grafted foch : https://doubleavineyards.com/marechal-foch-grafted

H


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## JCBurg (Aug 2, 2019)

BigH said:


> Didn't you say all your vines were grafted? If so, then wouldn't that imply that shoots emanating from the ground are rootstock suckers and not shoots from the variety you planted?
> 
> H


Yes probably! I had thought of that but, with a new baby I really couldn’t afford to buy new vines nor did I want to plant them. I thought they were dead and I figured I would just replant next year... but since they are growing I am enjoying the mystery! I won’t have anything off of them this year though, they are still tiny and weak and may still die yet


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## JCBurg (Aug 2, 2019)

KevinL said:


> Odds are your Marquette are not grafted (I'm not aware of any reason to do so in your region, and not aware of any nursery that sells grafted Marquette vines). I'm not as familiar with Foch. I know you can purchase them grafted. If you still have it, you can check your original order receipt. It should indicate if it was grafted, and what kind of rootstock it is on (IE 101-14 or 3309). If it is grafted, and you have shoots coming up from the ground then you're getting the rootstock and not Foch.
> 
> A lot of my hybrid vines pushed out vigorous shoots from the ground level in their second year. It's not uncommon to see this. I turned a few of those shoots into trunks. Good luck!


They are my Foch grapes! I got them from doubleA and I think they are grafted, but I don’t remember. I planted them 2 years ago as a trial, not knowing anything and just sort of learning by beating my head on the wall so to speak. I then promptly poisoned them with weed killer sprayed much to close... poor little bugger have been through hell and are still coming back for more! Would seem a shame to get rid of them.


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## JCBurg (Aug 2, 2019)

Dennis Griffith said:


> Thank you for your complement. After all the hard work, the best one can hope for is notice from your fellow grape growers (and a few grapes). Spacing depends on variety. All of my TWC vines (America, Buffalo, Concord, and Sheridan) are set at 7.5 feet apart. They could be anywhere from 6 to 8 feet, by the book. You would set them at 6 foot if you wanted to push for quantity, or at 8 foot for quality. I set my Cab Franc at 5 foot apart. If you google Double A vineyards, they have great info on spacing, trellis type, fighting disease and pests, etc. But they are an eastern outfit and you may want to look for someone more familiar with your region. Spacing will be the space regardless of where you are. A wise person once said (on this forum) that you can make bad wine from good grapes, but you can't make good wine from bad grapes. This is indeed sage advice and one of the reasons i allow for more space.


BTW Dennis, I just want say I agree, your grapes looks splendid my friend!


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