# tankless water heater for winery



## olusteebus (Oct 29, 2017)

Anyone use a tankless water heater for your winery. It seems to me that may be a good way to go. 

You don't really need that much hot water, just enough to help you sanitize.


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## GreginND (Oct 29, 2017)

I’ve never used one. I end up using a lot of hot water cleaning up from pressing and crushing. Can a tankless deliver hot water for a couple of hours continuously?


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## stickman (Oct 29, 2017)

Continuous hot water is what they were designed to do. There are only a few issues with the continuous hot water unit; they need a minimum water flow to trigger the heating so intermittent low flow use is not very good, they also are subject to minerals plating out on the heat exchange surface so they require acid re-circulation (depending on water quality maybe annually) to descale the exchanger.


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## balatonwine (Oct 29, 2017)

For what it is worth, you don't necessarily need to use hot water to sanitize. For example, OSU researchers say cool water with a sanitizer works just as well.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 29, 2017)

I have used a whole-house tankless heater for the last 12 years or so. No problems. I discuss the pros and cons here: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=661310&postcount=15153


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## Masbustelo (Oct 29, 2017)

I have one that is 12 years old also, 180,000BTU. You could run it continuously for "months" and never run out of hot water. For better or worse I've never done any maintenance or repairs on mine. They are pretty amazing as far as being reliable.


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

Our company installs tankless water heaters and i can say from a service tech standpoint they are a pita, 
first the heat exhangers need to be flushed once a year, water quality come into play alot with a tankless, if your water is suseptable to scale buildup plan on flushing every year
second if they break down they cost alot more for parts than a conventional water tank, 
third they do break down much more frequently than a conventional water tank, 
fourth if your on a water meter plan on spending more money running water waiting for the hot water to get to your tap, we typically have to go back and install recirc pumps for the customers which is another cost in itself. A conventional hot water tank stores hot water and copper piping is exellent at conducting heat which is why you dont have to wait long when turning on the taps to get hot water, tankless if not used for a while the pipes get cold, weve had customers that have to run there showers for over a minute before the water gets hot with a tankless
Fifth, they are much more expensive than a conventional water tank and typicall run about 200,000btus while they are running


Dont buy a tankless if you plan on saving money, weve had numerous complaints after “upgrading” customers to the new tankless design, conventional water tanks now have much better insulation R ratings than ever before and are a fraction of the price of a tankless, much less parts to break down conventionals only have a standard gas valve and a burner and thermocouple whereas a tankless has a ton of parts, very tight heat exchangers that get plugged up, large 200,000btu gasvalve burner, a bunch of highlimit, flow switches, water temp sensors that are all prone to failure. You might be one of the lucky ones who buy one and dont have issues with it but if your not i promise you will regret it.

Another issue is make sure you size them for your biggest demand, for instance they size them based on fixtures ( 4 fixtures, 8 fixtures) if you ever plan on running a dishwasher, doing laundry, and having a shower at the same time plan on buying a 200,000 plus btu unit, we ussually install 400,000 btu units for a household of 4 people or more.

I dont wanna seem like there all crap but coming from a service technician where we warranty the product for the first year its a real pita, i absolutely hate working on them, then after the first year i have to listen to customer complaints on how much they cost to maintenance and repair if they break down, we always try and talk people out of buying them now unless space is a factor.


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## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2017)

OK, Help a fellow winemaker out. Our water heater is a Sears Kenmore that is now 34 years old. LOL We have owned this house for 17 of those 34 years. I want to replace it before it fails (self install) What is a reliable brand these days for a regular tank (50G gas) heater? If you look at the reviews from the Big Box boys it looks like they are all crap.



Smok1 said:


> Our company installs tankless water heaters and i can say from a service tech standpoint they are a pita,
> first the heat exhangers need to be flushed once a year, water quality come into play alot with a tankless, if your water is suseptable to scale buildup plan on flushing every year
> second if they break down they cost alot more for parts than a conventional water tank,
> third they do break down much more frequently than a conventional water tank,
> ...


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 29, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> OK, Help a fellow winemaker out. Our water heater is a Sears Kenmore that is now 34 years old. LOL We have owned this house for 17 of those 34 years. I want to replace it before it fails (self install) What is a reliable brand these days for a regular tank (50G gas) heater? If you look at the reviews from the Big Box boys it looks like they are all crap.



Dude, I'd replace that tomorrow if it were mine. 

We ended up going with this one: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-P...ural-Gas-Water-Heater-XG75T12ST76U0/205811143

A couple neighbors have had it for a few years and in both cases no complaints so far. Bigger than what you need/want, but they have multiple sizes. We used the HD installation and the installed price for this one ended up only being $30 more than the installed price for the same heater w/ 6 year warranty. We were looking at the 6 year initially, but for that small a difference decided it was totally worth it. The only difference between them, as was explained to me, was in the 'lining'. Aside from that, you're basically buying insurance.


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> OK, Help a fellow winemaker out. Our water heater is a Sears Kenmore that is now 34 years old. LOL We have owned this house for 17 of those 34 years. I want to replace it before it fails (self install) What is a reliable brand these days for a regular tank (50G gas) heater? If you look at the reviews from the Big Box boys it looks like they are all crap.




We typically would install rheem or john wood as thats what most wholesalers carry and the replacement parts are decent brand names and easy to find and not expensive.


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## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2017)

LOL I knew it was old but when I actually found the MFG date on the side I was like holy crap! It works great still, pilot light has gone out a couple times from high winds that blew it out but it has served us well for sure. Natural gas is dirt cheap in these parts also since we are a huge producer.

Are there any issues with using Shark Bite or Pex fittings assuming you use ones rated for a hot water heater install?



Boatboy24 said:


> Dude, I'd replace that tomorrow if it were mine.


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> LOL I knew it was old but when I actually found the MFG date on the side I was like holy crap! It works great still, pilot light has gone out a couple times from high winds that blew it out but it has served us well for sure.
> 
> Are there any issues with using Shark Bite or Pex fittings assuming you use ones rated for a hot water heater install?



We ussually use copper and solder but pex is fine too, i wouldnt use shark bites if it were my tank because there prone to leaking but there are an approved fitting


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 29, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> LOL I knew it was old but when I actually found the MFG date on the side I was like holy crap! It works great still, pilot light has gone out a couple times from high winds that blew it out but it has served us well for sure.



I thought we were lucky with our 22+ year old heater until I learned of the legend of yours.


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## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2017)

Pics or........ 





Boatboy24 said:


> I thought we were lucky with our 22+ year old heater until I learned of the legend of yours.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 29, 2017)

Boatboy24 said:


> I thought we were lucky with our 22+ year old heater until I learned of the legend of yours.



Jim, you forgot about my 41-yr-old one! http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=661310&postcount=15153


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 29, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> Pics or........



Oh, wow. That's frightening.


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## pjd (Oct 29, 2017)

And if you want to buy American you really have only one choice... Bradford White


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## cmason1957 (Oct 29, 2017)

pjd said:


> And if you want to buy American you really have only one choice... Bradford White


Rheem is made in Mississippi and is an American Company with a worldwide presence.


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## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2017)

Hey that's its "good side" ....... 



Boatboy24 said:


> Oh, wow. That's frightening.


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## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2017)

Where in the heck do you purchase a Bradford White? Not the Big Box Boys!



pjd said:


> And if you want to buy American you really have only one choice... Bradford White


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> Where in the heck do you purchase a Bradford White? Not the Big Box Boys!



Not sure if the wholesalers are the same canada to usa but:

Emco: bradford white
Ba robinson: rheem
Sinclair or andrew sherets: john wood


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## sour_grapes (Oct 29, 2017)

Smok1 said:


> fourth if your on a water meter plan on spending more money running water waiting for the hot water to get to your tap, we typically have to go back and install recirc pumps for the customers which is another cost in itself.



Did you mean you put a recirc pump on a tankless heater? How would that even work?



> Dont buy a tankless if you plan on saving money,



I can tell you I have saved plenty of money with mine during its 12 years and counting of trouble-free, maintenance-free operation. I suppose they're not for everyone, but they work well for us.


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Did you mean you put a recirc pump on a tankless heater? How would that even work?
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you I have saved plenty of money with mine during its 12 years and counting of trouble-free, maintenance-free operation. I suppose they're not for everyone, but they work well for us.



Hot water on demand in larger houses are a big issue when the unit is mounted in the basement and the there a bathroom on the third floor, we always install recirc lines in the houses, the times we havent we have 100% of the time got complaints that it takes forever to get hot water to the furthest fixtures, we are on water meters here and paying to run cold water for 60 seconds to get hot water is a big deal for most people.

Without a hot water tank or at least a holding tank the water cant radiate heat down the line, hot water on demand leaves the water lines cold ecspecially with the new houses that all use pex, insulating all the water lines is one way to combat it but thats nearly impossible in an old house. So recirc pumps keeps hot water in the lines all the time, but theres a efficeincy loss associated with it as well, all the mechanical companies here were installing hot water on demand for years but in the last 5 years i bet 95% of new construction has gone back to the standard hot water tanks due to waranty issues and customer complaints and break downs with the tankless water heater.

Heres on scenario: customer calls: no hot water, worst case scenario with a water tank maybe a $100 gas valve or a $10 thermocouple that any wholesaler carries in stock, youll have hot water in a couple hours

Scenario 2: a navian or rannia instant hot water on demand goes down, probly 2 hours to trouble shoot the thing, try flushing heat exchanger, may e needs a gas valve, gas valve probly in the ball park of $500 give or take, nobody has any in stock because there one of a kind unit specific, so ill order one, hopefully be here in 2 days, air frieght right from navian or rannia, $1000 later and 3 days without hot water you should be good to go until the flow switch seizes up, now we have to tear it down again.

Ive delt with these things for years, maybe im bias because i only get the service calls for broken ones, nobody calls me to tell me they love there unit. But i do know i get way more service calls for instant hot water over conventional water tanks and the repair bills are 5 times what a conventional water tank repair would be.
In my experience, and i have a fair bit, ive been working for mechanical hvac companies for 20 years, i can easily name 5 good reasons not to buy a hot water on demand system, only reason i can think of to buy one would be space, not enough space for a water tank.


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

One more thing about the money savings your getting using a tankless water heater is you can find with a quick google search online that the average savings on natiral gas is about $108 a year.

Weve done some math of our own using firing rates and found it actually less than that unless you use a ton of hot water ( basically a family of 6) even if i did save $100 a year the upfront average installed cost of the hot water on demand is between 2500-3400$ and up to $5000 if you want a recirc put in. A conventional water tank 40g is $800. Thats alot of years you need to have that tankless water heater to pay it off, basically a minimum of 20 years to see payback on that and possobly up to 30 years which garanteed after 30 years you will be doing a few expensive repairs on it, one break down on the motherboard or gas valve and make it 40 years of owning it before you see any payback id just rather buy a brand new 40g every 10 years with up to date brand new parts, new liner, and id still be spending less than the guy who now owns a 30 year old tankless water heater with now obsolite parts.

But this is just my experience like i said, im sure lots of people like them, just not worth the money or hassle in my opinion


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## sour_grapes (Oct 29, 2017)

I installed my own for $1200. As I mentioned on that other post, I was able to place it in a location much closer to my hot water runs (instead of over where the flue was). My payoff period, based on my measured water usage, was about 7 years. (That was the time required to save $1200. That does not even take into account the amount I would have spent on a conventional heater.)


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## Smok1 (Oct 29, 2017)

Thats great, like i said for some people there great, you must use a whole lot of hot water to save 1200$ in 7 years, and like i said people who use a ton of hot water might benefit from the tankless, like i said, family of 6 or more, most people dont use that amount, national average is 41 gal per day which works out to a $108 per year savings, and thats calculated with a new 96% effecient unit, not sure which model you got but the new Navians start at about $2800 not installed, not including the special venting system, not many people can install them on there own, you need special venting, a larger gas regulator, the 1/2” gas pipe is most likely not big enough and youll either need to upsize the gas pipe or run high pressure 2psi gas to the unit and install a new 7”-14” gas reg. In fact here your not even allowed to install them unless you are a certified gasfitter. You cant even buy one in canada without a gas ticket. And if you could find one you still need a permit to install a gas appliance.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 30, 2017)

Smok1 said:


> Thats great, like i said for some people there great, you must use a whole lot of hot water to save 1200$ in 7 years, and like i said people who use a ton of hot water might benefit from the tankless, like i said, family of 6 or more, most people dont use that amount, national average is 41 gal per day which works out to a $108 per year savings, and thats calculated with a new 96% effecient unit, not sure which model you got but the new Navians start at about $2800 not installed, not including the special venting system, not many people can install them on there own, you need special venting, a larger gas regulator, the 1/2” gas pipe is most likely not big enough and youll either need to upsize the gas pipe or run high pressure 2psi gas to the unit and install a new 7”-14” gas reg. In fact here your not even allowed to install them unless you are a certified gasfitter. You cant even buy one in canada without a gas ticket. And if you could find one you still need a permit to install a gas appliance.



No, not a big family, just the two of us. As I keep saying, a large factor in the savings was the ability to move the unit from one side of the house (where the flue was) to the other side of the house (at the base of the hot water runs). That being said, I acknowledge that estimating energy use and savings is difficult, and it is possible that my payback period was closer to the 11 years you estimate than the 7 years I estimated based on my situation.

Yes, I had to install larger gas pipe. Yes, I had to install double-wall stainless venting. Yes, I did this work under permit, and it was inspected by my AHJ and a master plumber.


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## Smok1 (Oct 30, 2017)

Well if you can get one for $1200 with a vent kit and your knowledgable enough to install it yourself and troubleshoot it if it has issues id say its a no brainer, buy the tankless. For the majority of the people out there id say taking on a tankless install would be a job you would definitly need knowledge regarding gas sizing, regulators, special vent, dealing with the carbonic acid condensate trap/drain if its over 90% effecient, whereas a conventional hot water tank almost anyone can install themselves. Its a like for like install. Our company couldnt get a tankless water heater at wholesale for $1200. Our lowest end unit is probly $2000 our cost.

Anyone thinking of buying a tankless should read this article first, there not as effecient as many of the companies lead you to believe.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-tankless-water-heaters-waste-money


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## olusteebus (Oct 30, 2017)

I happen to have a low boy water heater (electric) that I will hook up. It will be outside and only on when I need it. I will insulate it and it should be fine here in North Florida. 

Thanks for all the help!


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## GreginND (Oct 30, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> For what it is worth, you don't necessarily need to use hot water to sanitize. For example, OSU researchers say cool water with a sanitizer works just as well.



It's not sanitizing I'm worried about. It's cleaning. Warm/hot water works so much better for cleaning up destemmers and presses after being soaked with sugar syrup from the grapes.


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## leonoro (Mar 9, 2019)

I want more ideas. Anyone help me ?


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## Dennis Griffith (Mar 10, 2019)

olusteebus said:


> Anyone use a tankless water heater for your winery. It seems to me that may be a good way to go.
> 
> You don't really need that much hot water, just enough to help you sanitize.



I use a Bosch 2.5 gallon electric point-of-use water heater. You can get bigger ones, but for one sink they work great. Easy to install and runs on 110V. Never ran out of water under normal use, but I do let the tap run sometimes to flush it a little as it doesn't get a lot of use during certain periods.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 10, 2019)

leonoro said:


> I want more ideas. Anyone help me ?



What exactly do you want help with, Leonoro? I am sure we would be happy to help if we knew what you were asking about.


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## joeswine (Mar 10, 2019)

Bradford is a eastern product as a rule , Rheem or ao Smith is another good brand standard warranty on all 3 ..6 years tank and parts.
The on demand are convenient but can be expensive to repair as stated before and do require annual manintence as per Mfg.
Installation can be on the standard or power vented modles is quite straight forward.thet tipicatop last 10 years. Better investment unless you use a ton of waterl.


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## porkchopmessiah (Mar 11, 2019)

You can try hot water boosters made by Hatco, or Hubble... they are the industry standards for the restaurant biz...
I install they all the time when the normal hot h2o heater cant provide enough hot water during heavy usage...might work for you...


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## joeswine (Mar 11, 2019)

I've used a power vented hwh for 20 years of wine making ,alway enough.


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