# Setting up trellises



## SundownVineyard (Jul 15, 2017)

I'm new to this, and when installing trellis wire on my first couple runs I simply wrapped the wire around the end post once, put a few staples around the post and wrapped the wire around itself. I now know that high tensile wire weakens when you do that, but my question is how much of an issue is this? My trellises are only 50 ft long. I am not going to install wires this way going forward (I am planning on using crimpers), but do I need to take these wires down and redo them? Thdy seem strong. I don't want to waste the wire, but if there's a chance they will break in the future then I will. I'll try to send pictures. Thanks!


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## salcoco (Jul 15, 2017)

that works what your really need to do is place a tightener in line with the wire. over time it will sag from the weight of the grapes and every spring you will need to tighten them up .


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## Johny99 (Jul 15, 2017)

I think you are fine. As salcoco says, there are tightened you can get that wrap on the wire. The ones I use are called Gallaghers. My trellises are ~150 feet, I just wrap the wire rather than use crimps. While it does weaken the wire to wrap it, work hardens, the wrapped part isn't under tension. I haven't had any problem with breakage to dare.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 15, 2017)

Great. Thanks for the replies. I put large turnbuckles on the anchor wires for my end posts so I can tighten them up. Is that enough, or do I definitely need wire strainers?


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## Sage (Jul 15, 2017)

Each wire needs one. I bought the ones used for electric fence at the farm supply store.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 15, 2017)

I guess i dont really understand how they work...will I have to remove the staples holding the wire onto the ends posts?


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## Johny99 (Jul 15, 2017)

SundownVineyard said:


> I guess i dont really understand how they work...will I have to remove the staples holding the wire onto the ends posts?



I have two different types. One is a roller with a gear for tightening. 

The other is a pulley that you slip over an existing wire and turn to wrap the wire around it. 

The second one will work with wires you have already run.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 16, 2017)

Ok, so in my case I would put the pulley one? Dies it remain on the wire when youre done using it?


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## Johny99 (Jul 16, 2017)

SundownVineyard said:


> Ok, so in my case I would put the pulley one? Dies it remain on the wire when youre done using it?



Yup, then every year you can check it and tighten it a bit if needed. Makes a lot more sense when you have one in your hand.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 16, 2017)

Are they necessary on catch wires too, or just for the weight of the fruiting wire? Do you recommend that I install an line strainer on the wires I haven't run yet?


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## Johny99 (Jul 17, 2017)

I like them on my catch wires as well. They can begin to sag over time as well. They are easy to add when you need them. I've gone to the ratchet type on my guy wires. Just personal preference.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 19, 2017)

You guys are great. This has been a huge help. Heres a longer, more annoying question...I have four trellises on a hill facing roughly west/southwest. The top trellis (uphill) is a VSP, the second down the hill is top wire cordon, the third a mid wire and the fourth another top wire cordon. I have not completed all of them yet and I am not sure how high to make the first top wire cordon trellis because I want to minimize shading the mid wire cordon vine just below it. The rows are about 5-6ft apart. I think any shading will be minimal and in the early morning, but having never done this before, is there an ideal height I should have the top wire at to maximize production while minimizing shade?? The varieties are America and Baco Noir.


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## Johny99 (Jul 20, 2017)

Can't help you much there as mine are all VSP and run up/downhill, East-west. I do recall that your top wire for VSP should be no higher than the row spacing to limit shading on North-south rows.
Note that hat is for flat ground. Morning sun is nice on the fruit, so if you get some shading on that side you might leaf plush to open the fruit up.


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## balatonwine (Jul 20, 2017)

SundownVineyard said:


> Heres a longer, more annoying question...



This is basically a geometry problem. The variables are your latitude (which determines the sun's hight in the sky on different days), your slope, and your distance between rows. With a bit of calculation given all the above (and correcting for time of year because the sun's position will change as will the shading effect -- early spring growth will not shade adjacent rows much) you can get the answer on trellis height.

I actually did this in one vineyard (doing all the math) with a pure VSP.

The other option is to just go out and do some field measurements now (best would have been at the solstice, but you can extrapolate even from data gathered now). Put up some poles of different height, and every hour, from sunrise to sunset, measure the shadow effect.

By the way, I assume your rows are terraced, which is why you are not running the rows parallel to the slope (which would be a much easier value to calculate).


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 20, 2017)

I was going to go with that - keep the top wire of each no higher than the distance the rows are spaced. Thanks.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 20, 2017)

I have been observing the sun and I think have it figured out. It's just a little frustrating because everything I read gives different recommendations for wire heights. I think I will stick with a max height of 5-6'. Yes, the rows are oriented roughly north to south on a roughly west facing slope. Thank you all so much for the input.


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## jgmillr1 (Jul 20, 2017)

Some other considerations for top wire cordon height I've found are:
(1) high enough to frost risk to buds in the spring
(2) high enough to handle most of the shoot length when combed downward
(3) your shoulder comfort for pruning and harvesting

Since the clusters will near the top wire anyway, shading isn't typically a concern for top wire cordon systems like it is for VSP. Take care with the proximity to the nearest VSP row.


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## SundownVineyard (Jul 20, 2017)

On a TWC, do you like to use sets of catch wires to tuck downward shoots or single wires?


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## jgmillr1 (Jul 21, 2017)

TWC systems are typically just the single wire without catch wires. Mid-summer you can comb down the shoots so they hang vertically.


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## BigH (Jul 24, 2017)

SundownVineyard said:


> On a TWC, do you like to use sets of catch wires to tuck downward shoots or single wires?



I have one wire about 20" below my top wire. The main purpose was early training of the vine in the first couple years. I haven't bothered to take it out. That lower wire sometimes comes in handy for tying down a shoot that doesn't want to behave. 

A series of parallel catch wires should not be necessary on TWC, and might reduce airflow and cause fungal problems.

H


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## SundownVineyard (Aug 3, 2017)

The strainers are pretty easy to install and seem to be doing the trick. I got the strainrite xt1's cause they easily went on the wires I already had up. Anyway, a couple more questions regarding training: 
Regarding TWC training, most books/online articles and pictures seem to show two main stems originating near the base of the vine. What is the main benefit to doing it this way vs training one stem that splits into two canes at the top wire? Greater production or just a preference?
Regarding MWC training, what is the ideal height to have the fruiting wire? (I realize this probably depends on many factors, but again, I keep reading different things (40", 48"...). 

Any other tips or preferences/techniques you prefer is also a great help!!!


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## balatonwine (Aug 4, 2017)

SundownVineyard said:


> Regarding TWC training, most books/online articles and pictures seem to show two main stems originating near the base of the vine. What is the main benefit to doing it this way vs training one stem that splits into two canes at the top wire?



Two trunks are sometimes used in areas where harsh winters temps may kill a vine trunk. So if one dies, you do not loose a full crop on that vine, only half a crop while you train a new second trunk. However, also see this:

http://midwestwinepress.com/2012/11/03/overuse-of-multiple-trunks/


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 4, 2017)

SundownVineyard said:


> What is the main benefit to doing it this way vs training one stem that splits into two canes at the top wire? Greater production or just a preference?



I started off all my vines (hybrids and american) as double trunks and have begun pruning some back to single trunks in recent years. A common issue has been that some varietals are much more susceptible to crown gall than others. Those I leave as double trunks. Generally I've found that double trunks leads to double the spring/summer pruning work of unwanted growth off the trunk and head that lead to shading and spray penetration trouble. 

So my advice is to double trunk what you need to for the risks you face but single trunk otherwise.



SundownVineyard said:


> Regarding MWC training, what is the ideal height to have the fruiting wire? (I realize this probably depends on many factors, but again, I keep reading different things (40", 48"...).



Seems like your limiting factors are that it should be high enough to mitigate spring frost risk and low enough so you can shoot position / manage the canopy along your catch / high wire.


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## SundownVineyard (Aug 4, 2017)

What is generally high enough to mitigate frost? MWC is basically VSP except the fruiting wire is 10-12" higher right?


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 4, 2017)

I had serious frost damage this spring from the ground up to about 18". Smoked some layered vines that had just started to pop buds. No damage above 30" where I have my training wire. Nearly all my vines are TWC and a hard freeze/frost will get them too.

My understanding is that the MWC design utilizes aspects of VSP to support the (semi-) upright growth habit of your vines while also allowing for them to be trained down over the top wire to de-vigorate the shoots. Otherwise it would be just a higher set VSP. Depending how much work you want to put into it, you could put two wires on the top to tuck the shoots inside of.

Double A's recommendation is 54" to the midwire and 12" more to the high wire. I suspect there is a large window you can work with there.
https://doubleavineyards.com/Images/MidWireCordon.pdf


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## SundownVineyard (Aug 18, 2017)

Is there any reason why I shouldn't grow my vines taller than what is recommended, other than the fact that they will be more work to prune? I am just about done setting up my trellises, and I used 10ft posts, planning on cutting off the tops when Im done. Now I'm thinking that I'll leave them tall so I have the option. The main reason is because the taller they are the more late day sun they'll get. Also, it is a small backyard vineyard, so if it helped increase production then Id consider it. Right now I have the fruiting wire on my VSP at 36", TWC at around 72' and MWC at around 48".


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## VillaVino (Nov 7, 2017)

If it’s not too late, have you looked into wire vices?


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## SundownVineyard (Nov 8, 2017)

VillaVino said:


> If it’s not too late, have you looked into wire vices?





VillaVino said:


> If it’s not too late, have you looked into wire vices?


I used stainrite strainers and they worked great. Thanks.


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