# Adjusting pH for a Pinot Noir



## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Hi All,
Just crushed 12 cases of Pinot Noir (432 lbs of grapes/200L of must) yesterday and getting ready to inoculate yeast, but trying to adjust acid first. My pH was 3.0-4.0 and TA was 0.5. Wanted to bring the pH down to about 3.6 as I was planning on going through MLF. 

Thinking of adding 250g of tartaric acid. Any thoughts??? To much tartaric acid or too little??

First time making a Pinot Noir and haven't had to adjust a pH this high before. So looking for some thought before I make any drastic decisions to my wine!

Looking forward hearing from everyone!

Happy Winemaking!


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 23, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> My pH was 3.0-4.0...



Was the pH 3 or 4? If you've got it all in different containers and that is the range of multiple readings, I'd leave it alone. Hard to say what it would be when you combine them all.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

sorry... typo.... pH was 3.9-4.0. Must is all in 1 fermenter


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 23, 2018)

I'm being lazy and not doing the math. But I'd target 3.5-3.6. I don't think you want to adjust much more than that. Biggest I've done is 0.4.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Gotcha. I read tartaric acid should be 1g/L to reduce pH by 0.1. So for 200L of must, to bring to 3.6 I would need 800g of tartaric acid. Does that sound right??


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

@Dom Lausic , if I were i in your shoes, I’d consider both pH and TA, and err on the side of adding too little. If your TA is 5.0 g/L, I wouldn’t increase the TA to any more than 6.0 g/L, and thus, would add 1 g/L. Additions should be calculated on volume of finished wine, which is not 200 L, more like 70% of that, or 140 L of finished wine. So I’d add no more than 140 g of tartaric, and I wouldn’t do it all at one time, I’d do it in stages, 70g, then increments of 20 g, testing pH along the way. We never really know how pH will react, and my experience is that it’s difficult to predict at this stage of the game.

If you add 800 g of tartaric to the equivalent of 140 L of finished wine, you’ll be adding 5.7 g/L to your TA, I doubt you’ll like the resulting taste from the dramatic increase in TA.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Amazing, makes total sense!

I will test now and post results of where I ended up. Must temp is currently at 51 degrees F but having a hard time keeping it cool enough before I inoculate with yeast. Was trying to cold soak for a couple of days prior to pitching, but temp is rising and I don't want to risk spoiling!


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Can I continue to add tartaric acid once I've inoculated with yeast? Or should my adjustments be made prior to?


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> Can I continue to add tartaric acid once I've inoculated with yeast? Or should my adjustments be made prior to?



Try to make your adjustments prefermentation, allowing the acid to be integrated into the wine as it is created. Minor acid addition can be made to taste later. The goal now is to get your must into range, so somewhere around 6 g/L TA, pH in the 3.3 - 3.7 range, but you shouldn’t blow up your TA just to get to pH 3.6. The fact is, that you can manage higher pH with a good sulfite plan, but a TA that’s too high produces a tart, sour tasting wine.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Ok, I'm at 3.8 pH and my TA is 0.7-0.8. 

I've run out of tartaric acid at the moment, and won't be able to get more until tomorrow afternoon. Think my values are within range? Or should I wait until tomorrow, when I can get some more tartaric acid?


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> Ok, I'm at 3.8 pH and my TA is 0.7-0.8.
> 
> I've run out of tartaric acid at the moment, and won't be able to get more until tomorrow afternoon. Think my values are within range? Or should I wait until tomorrow, when I can get some more tartaric acid?



How much did you add to get to .7 / .8? I wouldn’t add any more.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

I added 250g


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> I added 250g





Dom Lausic said:


> I added 250g



So you didn’t like my 140g number to keep your TA at 6? Hopefully, you’ll lose some acid during fermentation, you’ll definitely get some more of that low acid juice that’s still bound up in the pulp, it’ll probably keep you ok.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

I was trying to balance between the TA and pH values you gave by starting at 150g and going up by 20g. But I guess the values crept up while dissolving in the must. I'll call it quits for now and pitch the yeast! Fingers crossed!


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

should I pitch the yeast now? or wait until the morning?


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## Johnd (Sep 23, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> I was trying to balance between the TA and pH values you gave by starting at 150g and going up by 20g. But I guess the values crept up while dissolving in the must. I'll call it quits for now and pitch the yeast! Fingers crossed!



Understood. With acid additions particularly, it’s important to start small and go slow, it takes time for it to dissolve and get mixed in. Little higher TA than I’d like to see you start with, but I’m betting your pH will rebound up and your TA down. Good luck!!!


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> should I pitch the yeast now? or wait until the morning?



If your done adding acid I don’t see what waiting would accomplish. At this point your just gonna wait until after fermentation and MLf completion to check acid again anyway. 
Pretty sure acid integration isn’t gonna affect the yeast (or vice versa). I say pitch away!

*btw- he said add 70g, then increments of 20 until your at 140. I think you might have misread it. Ain’t no thang. Just another factor that will be part of making the wine what it is. .... which is all yours.


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Yikes! Yes I did misread that…. I've pitched with Lavlin RC 212, and I expect to see something tomorrow!

Was planning on doing MLF with *Wyeast 4007 Malolactic Blend Culture.* 

Any experience with this for a Pinot Noir?? Or any recommendations?


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## Dom Lausic (Sep 23, 2018)

Note that the Wyeast mentioned about, I believe, is intended to go in secondary. I've read in the forum of others co-fermenting. Any thoughts? I just pitched the yeast tonight, so if I were to co-ferment, I guess I'd have to do so rather quickly


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

There are no rules!


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

Popular co-inoculation timing is right after the yeast’s ‘lag phase’ — time between pitching yeast and visible activity. Normally a day or 2. I’ve added it a full day and a half after lag phase with no problems. 
Others on here mentioned adding it right along with the yeast. 
If your able to get your hands on ML nutrient it helps when co-innoculating. To make sure both the yeast and the malo are properly fed so they’re not stealing each other’s food. At least that’s what they say. And it’s what I’ve been doing.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 23, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Popular co-inoculation timing is right after the yeast’s ‘lag phase’ — time between pitching yeast and visible activity. Normally a day or 2. I’ve added it a full day and a half after lag phase with no problems.
> Others on here mentioned adding it right along with the yeast.
> If your able to get your hands on ML nutrient it helps when co-innoculating. To make sure both the yeast and the malo are properly fed so they’re not stealing each other’s food. At least that’s what they say. And it’s what I’ve been doing.


Does the 4007 come in a vial filled with liquid or is it a dry product? If it is the liquid, I believe there is no need for extra nutrients, the liquid is the nutrient. And this is from memory, so I could be wrong. I always buy enough for 66 gallons, not just 6.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 23, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> Does the 4007 come in a vial filled with liquid or is it a dry product? If it is the liquid, I believe there is no need for extra nutrients, the liquid is the nutrient. And this is from memory, so I could be wrong. I always buy enough for 66 gallons, not just 6.



Good catch. I’ve never used the liquid. Had no idea they contained nutrient. Makes sense too: to store the bacteria in a healthy nutrient filled solution.


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## Y_No (Sep 30, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Try to make your adjustments prefermentation, allowing the acid to be integrated into the wine as it is created. Minor acid addition can be made to taste later. The goal now is to get your must into range, so somewhere around 6 g/L TA, pH in the 3.3 - 3.7 range, but you shouldn’t blow up your TA just to get to pH 3.6. The fact is, that you can manage higher pH with a good sulfite plan, but a TA that’s too high produces a tart, sour tasting wine.


In your opinion how long does one need to wait for acid additions to be incorporated and measured? Thx


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## Johnd (Sep 30, 2018)

Y_No said:


> In your opinion how long does one need to wait for acid additions to be incorporated and measured? Thx



When you’re trying to adjust your must and get a ferment going, it’s hard to give it a lot of time. I try to allow a couple hours between major moves, less time for smaller, and lots of stirring.


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## Y_No (Oct 1, 2018)

Johnd said:


> When you’re trying to adjust your must and get a ferment going, it’s hard to give it a lot of time. I try to allow a couple hours between major moves, less time for smaller, and lots of stirring.


Thank you


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## Venatorscribe (Oct 1, 2018)

Dom Lausic said:


> I added 250g


Interesting. Each grape type responds differently. I had to adjust a Sangiovese recently. It was sitting at a pH of 4.2. Pullled it down to a pH of 3.6. Adding 170gms of mostly Tartaric Acid.


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