# Chileans, Finally!



## Johnd

After a short delay due to a freezer issue, M&M shipped my frozen grape must this past Monday, they arrived today looking good. I was a little worried at the lengthy delivery time and temps in the country, but the frozen must arrived at just under 60 degrees.

Two buckets of Cabernet Sauvignon must, 23 Brix, Ph 3.48, two buckets of Malbec, 22 Brix, Ph 3.20. Each is sitting in a 20 gal fermenter warming up, I'll run TA's on them when I get home and decide if I'm going to make any adjustments, and pitch some yeast.

I know I'm far behind all of you fresh grape getters, but you gotta take it how you can get it. 

If you don't take pictures it never happened, so...........


----------



## JohnT

They look real nice john. Numbers look pretty goo too! Nice high brix, with nice and low PH.


----------



## Johnd

JohnT said:


> They look real nice john. Numbers look pretty goo too! Nice high brix, with nice and low PH.



Thanks John, I was thinking the same thing too, to the point where I was just going to pitch yeast when I got up above 65 degrees, but I corrected my lazy thought. 

I'm sort of expecting the Malbec to be up into the .7 range, the Cab might come in a little low. I'd like to have both in the .6-.7 range before I pitch, so I'll just have to deal with it when I get home.

BTW, just got a refractometer to measure prefermentation Brix, taking SG in must with a hydrometer was a bit**. Wow, was that easy..........


----------



## ibglowin

Those are some pretty low pre fermentation numbers.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Those are some pretty low pre fermentation numbers.



Mike, I assume you're referring to the 22 and 23 Brix numbers, which I'd agree with, especially on the cab. A little sweetening of the must will probably be a part of the regimen once I have the TA numbers this evenings. I'd like to have the cab around 25, the Malbec probably a little bit lower.


----------



## ibglowin

That 3.2 pH on the Malbec. Remember your yeast have a pH tolerance limit and usually its around 3.2. That pH will put a stress on the yeast.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> That 3.2 pH on the Malbec. Remember your yeast have a pH tolerance limit and usually its around 3.2. That pH will put a stress on the yeast.



3.0 is the low end, and you're suggesting a bump up there, as stress increases when you're getting down to that threshold. Sounds like good advice, which I'll act upon, thank you Mike. I'll have to bump it eventually anyway for MLF.


----------



## ceeaton

John, curious what yeasts you are using, especially on the Malbec. Just got a Malbec kit and was considering what yeast I might substitute. I'll probably be boring and use RC 212, which I seem to be using on everything "red" lately, but I do admit I like the results, even if I get a bit of cooked egg smell from time to time (had to add a small dose of nutrient today to my current batch using RC 212, could smell it (not super strong) when I walked through the door today as I arrived home from work).


----------



## Johnd

@ceeaton, funny you should ask, I just sat down after pitching yeast and jumped on the forum. Cab was easy, BM 4x4 was the plan there all along and was done first. Stared at the Malbec with mu bag of yeasts, BM 4x4, 1118, 212, D47, just couldn't make a decision, final two were 212 and 4x4, BM 4x4 won out in the end. 

TA's low on both musts, but I left them for now at cab - 4.8, and Malbec 5.0. Yes, fresh titrant, calibrated ph meter, and di water, ran em each twice. Boosted cab Brix to 24.5, and Malbec to 23.5. Bumped ph on Malbec up a smidge to 3.32, thanks @ibglowin for the call there. Now we wait, Fermaid K probably Sunday.

I haven't made any new wines since I started the wine room, glad to get back in the saddle.


----------



## ibglowin

I have seen numbers from several people that got Chilean grapes this Spring. Methinks they picked too early.


----------



## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> I have seen numbers from several people that got Chilean grapes this Spring. Methinks they picked too early.



My initial numbers were pretty good. But the wines are tasting like dog barf right now.  Could certainly be 'user error' though. They were pretty good in primary.


----------



## Tnuscan

Johnd said:


> @ceeaton, funny you should ask, I just sat down after pitching yeast and jumped on the forum. Cab was easy, BM 4x4 was the plan there all along and was done first. Stared at the Malbec with mu bag of yeasts, BM 4x4, 1118, 212, D47, just couldn't make a decision, final two were 212 and 4x4, BM 4x4 won out in the end.
> 
> TA's low on both musts, but I left them for now at cab - 4.8, and Malbec 5.0. Yes, fresh titrant, calibrated ph meter, and di water, ran em each twice. Boosted cab Brix to 24.5, and Malbec to 23.5. Bumped ph on Malbec up a smidge to 3.32, thanks @ibglowin for the call there. Now we wait, Fermaid K probably Sunday.
> 
> I haven't made any new wines since I started the wine room, glad to get back in the saddle.



Johnd, when you say your TA is 5.0, are you meaning .50% or are you going to have to come down 5.40 to get to .60% or will you be going from 5.0 up to 6.0 to get .60%?


----------



## Johnd

Tnuscan said:


> Johnd, when you say your TA is 5.0, are you meaning .50% or are you going to have to come down 5.40 to get to .60% or will you be going from 5.0 up to 6.0 to get .60%?



The second option. TA can be expressed both ways, .5%, or 5 g/l, so I'll move up later to between .5% and .6%, or between 5 and 6 g/l, same thing. 

I find it easier to express in grams per liter, as making adjustments is more sensible to my brain. To go from 5 g/l to 6 g/l, you do your calcs to increase 1 gram per liter. In practice however, I'd only add half of my calc, adjust and measure. Sneak up on your goal.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> I have seen numbers from several people that got Chilean grapes this Spring. Methinks they picked too early.



I'm thinking the same, when I popped the buckets, I got that green, vegetal smell, and the numbers are a little off from what properly timed picking should yield, but it's rarely perfect. I'm sure we're not getting the best of the best from Chile. 
Seems to me the cab at 23 Brix could've gone longer, though the TA is already low. The Malbec would've benefitted I think too, at ph 3.2 and 22 Brix.


----------



## Johnd

Both are chugging along vey healthily on the back of 10g BM 4x4 in each fermenter. Big nasty caps this morning, punched down every few hours today and gave each a 5 g dose of Fermaid K.

They must have crushed the crap out of these grapes, there's not one whole berry I've seen in either fermenter. Makes me wonder........


----------



## ibglowin

Some C/D's can pulverize the crap out of grapes leaving no intact grapes and almost a pulverized mess of skins and seeds.


----------



## ceeaton

Plus the fact that they were frozen will break them down even further, sort of like freezing strawberries/blueberries/raspberries etc before making a fruit wine.

Looking at it, your cap looks pretty nice to me. I wish I had smellavision and could smell how wonderful it probably smells.


----------



## Johnd

Just looks like they were way over crushed. The Brehm zin I did had been frozen since 2014, and had plenty of whole berries, popped, but still whole. It looks almost like it was pressed and the pomace dumped back in. 

Silver lining, at 84 right now and climbing, so I'll get some god extraction. Think when it's time, I'm going to put the mesh bag in the press basket before I try to press that sludge.


----------



## dspirito

*Chilean juice (Toro Negro)*

I purchased 2 pails of the Chilean Juice at a discount place so it was about half the price of the Mosti Mondale. (1 Cab / 1 Malbec) I will post my specs when I get home from work. I don't test TA, although I really should  but I do check pH. I believe the brix was 22/23. I still have it upstairs in the low 70 degrees temp, which worries me.. I wanted to start MLF but never bought the MLF culture. I'm probably going to move it to the cellar and add some SO2 this week. I racked it once after fermentation in April. Due for another rack I'm sure.


----------



## Johnd

Cab was down to 1.002 this evening, pressed and racked and was pleasantly surprised at the smell, taste, and yield. I have a little over 8 gallons of wine from two 5 gallon buckets of must. Froze the pomace cake for an upcoming wine kit project. 

BTW, used my new press for the first time and loved it! One press, dry cake, great yield and easy cleanup. Malbec will be ready tomorrow for sure.


----------



## JohnT

Johnd said:


> Cab was down to 1.002 this evening, pressed and racked and was pleasantly surprised at the smell, taste, and yield. I have a little over 8 gallons of wine from two 5 gallon buckets of must. Froze the pomace cake for an upcoming wine kit project.
> 
> BTW, used my new press for the first time and loved it! One press, dry cake, great yield and easy cleanup. Malbec will be ready tomorrow for sure.


 

Got any pictures?


----------



## Johnd

JohnT said:


> Got any pictures?



Didn't take any pics during the racking or pressing, guess I should have. Picture of a carboy and a half of wine is kinda mundane.......... I'll take some photos tonight when I do the Malbec.

I'm looking for some best practices to try out. Here's my struggle. Big fermenter full of must, do you "wine from grapes" folks siphon your wine out to a carboy and then put the skins in the press? How do you keep it from clogging if so? 

Currently, I scoop skins with a stainless strainer into the press, get as much as I can, then pour the liquid through a bag into a second fermenter and add the skins to press. It's time consuming.

I was thinking of making a cylinder, open on top, out of stainless mesh. to push down into the must and insert my racking cane into, to transfer the bulk of liquid without too much gunk. Thoughts? Ideas?


----------



## ibglowin

I "Keep it Simple". I don't worry about strainer bags etc. I have a #30 press and make 10G batches each Fall. Come press time I use a 1G bucket and scoop out a gallon at a time and pour right into the press. No strainer bags or stainless mesh, just the wood slats. Let the free run pour right back out into the waiting bucket below. When the 10G bucket it light enough it gets picked up and into the press the rest of the must goes. Then I swap out the full 6G bucket with an empty and begin my press. I usually get 2-3 gallons of press that I keep separated. A few skins and seeds make it through but this is just step (1) in the process of clearing. Future rackings will get those few seeds or skins and all those lees that would have plugged up a strainer will be on the bottom of the carboy or jug in a few days. Press is just that, press to get those skins off that is job one. The rest happens "naturally" without need for any fancy stuff or extra work. I end up after settling and racking with a 6G Carboy and 1-2 G jugs for each Primary.


----------



## Boatboy24

I have a 2ft piece of 4 inch PVC with a cap on one end. I drilled 'a gazillion' small holes in it. I stick that into the must (sometimes with a paint strainer bag around it) and then put a racking cane into the open end of the pipe. With the AllInOne, I rack the juice and while that's going, I scoop the skins into the press using a mesh strainer.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> I "Keep it Simple". I don't worry about strainer bags etc. I have a #30 press and make 10G batches each Fall. Come press time I use a 1G bucket and scoop out a gallon at a time and pour right into the press. No strainer bags or stainless mesh, just the wood slats. Let the free run pour right back out into the waiting bucket below. When the 10G bucket it light enough it gets picked up and into the press the rest of the must goes. Then I swap out the full 6G bucket with an empty and begin my press. I usually get 2-3 gallons of press that I keep separated. A few skins and seeds make it through but this is just step (1) in the process of clearing. Future rackings will get those few seeds or skins and all those lees that would have plugged up a strainer will be on the bottom of the carboy or jug in a few days. Press is just that, press to get those skins off that is job one. The rest happens "naturally" without need for any fancy stuff or extra work. I end up after settling and racking with a 6G Carboy and 1-2 G jugs for each Primary.



That sounds like a good plan for me too. My press is a stainless basket with holes and I used a bag in it which worked really well. I considered doing it the way you suggest, but the bottom discharge tube from my press tray is too low to get a bucket under it. I thought about elevating the press for the initial pouring of must through, but backed off on it. Tonight, I'll go that route with the Malbec, elevate the press til I get all of the must through it and then put it back on the floor to press the skins. 

Mike, I know some keep the free run and press juice separate, and currently I have a whole carboy of free run, and 3 gallons of a mixture of free and press juice. Please share with me your thoughts on keeping them separate. Do they eventually get mixed back together in subsequent rackings and topping up?


----------



## JohnT

I do the exact same thing as Boatboy (except my PVC tube is about 4 feet long). I first scoop out the "Cap" of skins using a ss strainer into the press, the pump the free run juice into my fermentor.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I have a 2ft piece of 4 inch PVC with a cap on one end. I drilled 'a gazillion' small holes in it. I stick that into the must (sometimes with a paint strainer bag around it) and then put a racking cane into the open end of the pipe. With the AllInOne, I rack the juice and while that's going, I scoop the skins into the press using a mesh strainer.



Mike, I like that idea too, very similar to my idea about a stainless mesh cylinder. How does it do in terms of clogging up with particles from the must??

Thanks for the great ideas @johnt , @ibglowin , and @boatboy24, tonight will be a better night than last. I know I'd have ended up developing a good technique, but the learning curve just got shortened. I'll need to have a pretty good process in place by fall, plan to seriously hop up the grape wine making.


----------



## ibglowin

I end up using the press run to feed the angels share in my barrels usually.

My Press goes on a table so that it is high enough off the ground for the 6G bucket to go underneath.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=579804&postcount=250


----------



## Boatboy24

JohnT said:


> I do the exact same thing as Boatboy...



That's because I copied the idea from you.


----------



## Johnd

If you don't have pictures it didn't happen, so here's the Malbec pressing and racking. The setup in the kitchen, in the A/C.


----------



## Johnd

And my little helper moving the skins.


----------



## Johnd

.....and the must


----------



## Johnd

A beautiful little disk of pomace for a future project.


----------



## Johnd

And the must, between 8 and 9 gallons bubbling away. Pretty good taste, little sweet yet, but fruity with medium tannins, and still a bit sour. Fairly pleased so far.


----------



## ibglowin

Looks like you need a 3G Carboy ASAP! 



Johnd said:


> And the must, between 8 and 9 gallons bubbling away. Pretty good taste, little sweet yet, but fruity with medium tannins, and still a bit sour. Fairly pleased so far.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Looks like you need a 3G Carboy ASAP!



Still fermenting pretty steadily at the moment. Tomorrow I'll rack and top up a full carboy of Cab and one of Malbec, and rack the remainders down to smaller glass, maybe even blend them together, and kick off MLF.


----------



## ColemanM

I'd wait to blend the rest. You will need pure varietal to top off carboys eventually. Your call.


----------



## Tnuscan

The more I see that press, the more I like it. Might have to get one of those.


----------



## Johnd

Tnuscan said:


> The more I see that press, the more I like it. Might have to get one of those.



I like it a lot. First press I did with no straining bag was quicker, but more particulates, so it went through a fine strainer before the bucket. Last several I used the bag, a bit slower, but really clean discharge. It's quite powerful, heavy duty and I expect a long life from it. Setup and cleanup is quick and easy. I give it a good rating, but I've nothing to compare it to other than my little one gallon fruit press.


----------



## Johnd

All racked off the gross lees, little bit of AF still active, about to kick off MLF. 6 gallons of cab, 6 gallons of malbec, 3 gallons of 75/25 cab/malbec blend, two one gallon jugs of malbec. Pretty strong yield for four 5 gallon pails. Both are very fruity and very sour at this point, but seem to have potential down the road. Time will tell.


----------



## ibglowin

Johnd said:


> Both are very fruity and very sour at this point, but seem to have potential down the road. Time will tell.



With that pH let me know how the "sour" taste evolves...... LOL


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> With that pH let me know how the "sour" taste evolves...... LOL



Yep, will do, cab at 3.49, Malbec at 3.35. Really more tart than sour. Expecting some slight MLF increase, but we'll just have to wait and see. It might just need another boost later, but will withhold adjustments til after MLF and some barrel time. Early pickers.........


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I have a 2ft piece of 4 inch PVC with a cap on one end. I drilled 'a gazillion' small holes in it. I stick that into the must (sometimes with a paint strainer bag around it) and then put a racking cane into the open end of the pipe. With the AllInOne, I rack the juice and while that's going, I scoop the skins into the press using a mesh strainer.



So Jim (and others!!), I pirated your method, but wasn't reall up for drilling a gazillion holes, so I started thinking about things with a gazillion holes in them. Perforated vinyl soffit. It's PVC, just like pipe. Picked up a piece, rolled it back on itself and snapped the seams together. Presto, a tube with a gazillion holes. Cut a round piece out and "sewed" it to the bottom using the holes and some 20# test. Did the double batch of Fourtitudes with Brehm skins, worked flawlessly!


----------



## JohnT

Looking great there johnd!!!!!


----------



## Johnd

JohnT said:


> Looking great there johnd!!!!!



A dyed in the wool convert to grape winemaking, even if I can't get em fresh. 

I had a hard time tossing the Zin skins last nite, even after their second ferment the smelled wonderful.


----------



## JohnT

Johnd said:


> A dyed in the wool convert to grape winemaking, even if I can't get em fresh.
> 
> I had a hard time tossing the Zin skins last nite, even after their second ferment the smelled wonderful.


 
Mix them into the soil. Tomatoes love them!!!


----------



## ibglowin

You can get em fresh. Just have to do like me. Be willing to drive a ways to go pick them up.



Johnd said:


> A dyed in the wool convert to grape winemaking, even if I can't get em fresh.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> You can get em fresh. Just have to do like me. Be willing to drive a ways to go pick them up.



Closest I've found so far would be to drive to Dallas to the Toystore when they get their grapes, pretty long trek to make, and give up a weekend of bow hunting, but it's on the table....


----------



## ibglowin

I did it one year. 2011. Drove our Expedition, Mrs. IB, our 75lb Golden Retreiver "Jack" from Lost Almost to San Antonio, spent a few days with my family, drove up to Dallas and stayed at a 5-Star dog friendly hotel (Kimpton). Had the toy store crush/destem (dropped a lot of volume doing that) almost 800lbs and drove home that day. You can use dry ice to keep the must cool on the drive back. Now I only have to drive 700 miles round trip to Denver for my grapes..... The Dallas trip was like 1600 miles round trip.


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> I did it one year. 2011. Drove our Expedition, Mrs. IB, our 75lb Golden Retreiver "Jack" from Lost Almost to San Antonio, spent a few days with my family, drove up to Dallas and stayed at a 5-Star dog friendly hotel (Kimpton). Had the toy store crush/destem (dropped a lot of volume doing that) almost 800lbs and drove home that day. You can use dry ice to keep the must cool on the drive back. Now I only have to drive 700 miles round trip to Denver for my grapes..... The Dallas trip was like 1600 miles round trip.



That's pretty much the same I'd do, drive in, stay overnight, crush/destem and cool for the ride home. So I'd be at home with must buckets, kinda the same place I'd be if ordering frozen. By the time you make the drive there and back, room and board, shipping cost isn't a problem. 

I'm working on a pallet sized frozen bucket order right now (helps the shipping cost), got 10 pails of the great stuff that goes fast with my name on it, waiting for the rest of the grape offerings to present. 

I keep telling myself that I'm spending less on wine than I would if I were buying what I like in the store, and having fun doing it.


----------



## ibglowin

You would think that there would be somebody in Houston (LHBS) doing this. But maybe not.


----------



## Tnuscan

JohnT said:


> I do the exact same thing as Boatboy (except my PVC tube is about 4 feet long). I first scoop out the "Cap" of skins using a ss strainer into the press, the pump the free run juice into my fermentor.



A friendly word of caution when making these types of accessories to aid in wine making.

Drilling holes, using glues in or on pvc, cpvc etc... can and will impart undesired aromas and tastes and even ruin your whole batch of wine.

These will need to be flushed and sanitized and sterilized to insure safe usage.
The glue alone can and will be detected for days and weeks on end.

I am not trying to ruffle feathers or anger anyone, I just don't want some one that don't understand this to unwittingly make one and use it without understanding the chemical reactions of using in wine making.

I have cut into water supplies, made repairs, flushed for a good period of time, and asked the owners to do the same before drinking. I have been informed by many, after many days and flushes, they still smell and taste the repair. And I myself have noticed the same.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> A friendly word of caution when making these types of accessories to aid in wine making.
> 
> Drilling holes, using glues in or on pvc, cpvc etc... can and will impart undesired aromas and tastes and even ruin your whole batch of wine.
> 
> These will need to be flushed and sanitized and sterilized to insure safe usage.
> The glue alone can and will be detected for days and weeks on end.
> 
> I am not trying to ruffle feathers or anger anyone, I just don't want some one that don't understand this to unwittingly make one and use it without understanding the chemical reactions of using in wine making.
> 
> I have cut into water supplies, made repairs, flushed for a good period of time, and asked the owners to do the same before drinking. I have been informed by many, after many days and flushes, they still smell and taste the repair. And I myself have noticed the same.



Good point. To be safe, I used no glue in my 'build'. Not sure if the holes did anything, but my apparatus was thoroughly rinsed, then sanitized before using.


----------



## JohnT

That is a very good point. 

I used no glue in constructing mine. I just slipped the end cap on . 

Also, I made it a point to clean, sanitize, and sterilize the living you-know-what out of it before each use.


----------



## Boatboy24

@JohnT: What do you sterilize with?


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> Good point. To be safe, I used no glue in my 'build'. Not sure if the holes did anything, but my apparatus was thoroughly rinsed, then sanitized before using.



This is good news and brings a sigh of relief. I remember you having a issue with the Chilean grapes. By them being different varieties and all being off somehow might be related to using this pipe...??? Not using any glues was a smart call, by just pressing the cap (dry fit) on and off makes it easy to clean.


----------



## Johnd

No glue in mine, pvc siding and fishing line.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tnuscan said:


> This is good news and brings a sigh of relief. I remember you having a issue with the Chilean grapes. By them being different varieties and all being off somehow might be related to using this pipe...??? Not using any glues was a smart call, by just pressing the cap (dry fit) on and off makes it easy to clean.



I'll be honest, it has me thinking. It has cooled off a bit this week and the AC hasn't been running nearly as much. As a result, it has been a bit warmer in the basement. I gave all a good stir last weekend and the tiny bubbles that had been missing for a while are back in force. I'm wondering if I didn't just have a stalled MLF. The last taste (last weekend) showed progress. While the concerns are still there, the wines weren't as bad as I remember the last taste being.


----------



## Tnuscan

Boatboy24 said:


> Good point. To be safe, I used no glue in my 'build'. Not sure if the holes did anything, but my apparatus was thoroughly rinsed, then sanitized before using.



By rinsing and sanitizing after drilling, I'll bet your safe. Even if there were off aromas and flavors from this, I'm willing to bet they will dissipate over time and any set back will stabilize and the outcome will be fine.


----------



## ColemanM

This is what I use. It's designed I believe for a pool filter or something. It's been a while since I bought it and I have been drinking quite a bit tonight. But anyways. It works great in a 20 gallon fermenter 


"Oops, almost got a picture of my "winter hobby" in there.


----------



## Boatboy24

ColemanM said:


> "Oops, almost got a picture of my "winter hobby" in there.



What's that, making green stains on the floor?


----------



## JohnT

Tnuscan said:


> This is good news and brings a sigh of relief. I remember you having a issue with the Chilean grapes. By them being different varieties and all being off somehow might be related to using this pipe...??? Not using any glues was a smart call, by just pressing the cap (dry fit) on and off makes it easy to clean.


 
I have been using the same pipes since 1995. 

I first clean each pipe after use. I take an awl and make sure that all of the holes are free of seeds. I then oxy-clean the pipes and then put them to bed. 

Before use, I again oxy-clean them, then rinse 3 times using screaming hot water, then coat with strong k-meta solution. After years of use, they still look spanking new.


----------



## Tnuscan

JohnT said:


> I have been using the same pipes since 1995.
> 
> I first clean each pipe after use. I take an awl and make sure that all of the holes are free of seeds. I then oxy-clean the pipes and then put them to bed.
> 
> Before use, I again oxy-clean them, then rinse 3 times using screaming hot water, then coat with strong k-meta solution. After years of use, they still look spanking new.



The idea of the pipe is a good one, I will be using this also. The main reason for my post was to let anyone using this idea to be cautious of making it and using it in a way that might hurt their wine. (cutting, drilling then instantly using).

Letting the fresh cuts and drilled openings set a while to loose the aromas and tastes that a fresh cut into this plastic can release. Cleaning it the way you do yours to be extra safe and help insure a successful process.

It seems in wine making it doesn't take much to throw things off here and there.


----------



## JohnT

Tnuscan said:


> The idea of the pipe is a good one, I will be using this also. The main reason for my post was to let anyone using this idea to be cautious of making it and using it in a way that might hurt their wine. (cutting, drilling then instantly using).
> 
> Letting the fresh cuts and drilled openings set a while to loose the aromas and tastes that a fresh cut into this plastic can release. Cleaning it the way you do yours to be extra safe and help insure a successful process.
> 
> It seems in wine making it doesn't take much to throw things off here and there.


 
Thank you so much for voicing your concerns. I should have mentioned about the glue. Having great folks (like you) helps to ensure things just get better and better!

I remember taking a scotch-brite pad to scour the pipe inside and out after the holes were drilled. This knocked off all of the "dangling chads".


----------



## Johnd

Tasted the Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon yesterday evening, to use a description I read here, the flavor was "meh". I think it's going through a phase of its development in the barrel, this has always had decent fruit, now it has no flavor. I've only read about these stages where different aspects of the wine disappear as they develop, only to return. I'll keep monitoring to see how it progresses. The others are still carboyed.


----------



## sdelli

I will probably get my head bit off for this one but I really do not see how people are purchasing Chilean every year. I read post after post about problems..... First year I tried fresh grapes. Had to pitch it due to high h2s problems. Last year I made some juice of Malbec and Syrah. Came out fine but the quality is far from what I am used to drinking. This year and moving forward I am sticking with grapes from good old CA in the fall. The quality is very reliable and makes great wine!


----------



## JohnT

sdelli said:


> I will probably get my head bit off for this one but I really do not see how people are purchasing Chilean every year. I read post after post about problems..... *First year I tried fresh grapes. Had to pitch it due to high h2s problems.* Last year I made some juice of Malbec and Syrah. Came out fine but the quality is far from what I am used to drinking. This year and moving forward I am sticking with grapes from good old CA in the fall. The quality is very reliable and makes great wine!


 
Year after year I do Chilean from fresh grapes, and each year it turns out wonderful. It is some of the best I have ever made. I currently have my 2016 in the barrel and it knocks my socks off each time I taste it.

Please tell me you did not toss your wine due to H2S!!! This is easily addressable! Was there more to it than just your run of the mill H2S??


----------



## sdelli

Glad to hear it! That batch did get tossed. Just bottled last year Syrah and Malbec from juice. Oak the crap out of it and it taste pretty decent.


----------



## Johnd

Just sort of wrapping this thread up, it's been about 18 months since starting these Chilean grapes, I had them crushed, destemmed, frozen and shipped to me, Cab and Malbec. Both wines were put through MLF, neither completed and were sulfited a few months after inoculating (post AF). Both wines were a little lowish on BRIX, and low pH, which I surmised was due to being harvested a little early, both with a little vegetal hint. The wines went through different stages during development where the fruit waxed and waned, but ended up ok. The Cab was bottled a few weeks ago and is OK, not bad, but not great, I'm hoping it will improve with some time in the bottle. The Malbec was bottled yesterday, as well as a 3 gallon carboy blend of 75% Cab / 25% Malbec, also OK, and again, I'm hoping these will improve with some bottle time. All of the wines have a very distinctive taste, not necessarily a good or bad taste, just distinctive, I can't quite put my finger on it but want to say it's slightly vegetal. They are all currently very drinkable, but either: 1. Not my best effort, or: 2. Not above average fruit.


----------



## JohnT

Thanks for all of your posts here. Sorry to hear that your wine isn't a show stopper, but that is how it goes sometimes. The important thing here is that you have something drinkable! There have been a number of batches that I have made that were undrinkable (not many, but there were a few). 

I wonder if having them frozen had any negative effects?


----------



## Johnd

JohnT said:


> Thanks for all of your posts here. Sorry to hear that your wine isn't a show stopper, but that is how it goes sometimes. The important thing here is that you have something drinkable! There have been a number of batches that I have made that were undrinkable (not many, but there were a few).
> 
> I wonder if having them frozen had any negative effects?



I think, in general, that freezing is a good thing, as it gives some additional "cold soak" time as it freezes and then thaws, and that helps release the goodies. Having done lots of frozen musts, I've not noticed any issues that i would attribute to freezing, but that's just personal experience.

My hunch is that these grapes were harvested a bit early (low BRIX, low pH, vegetal characteristics), and received too much exposure to SO2 during shipping and / or during crushing and destemming (although I asked for no sulfites to be added). Thus, the final taste and fact that MLF wouldn't complete. I'm a little snobby with wine, so that certainly should be taken into account. I'm not disappointed, but feel the wines should have been better, and agree, sometimes, that's just how it goes. After all, its a crop that changes from year to year, sometimes awesome, sometimes not.............


----------



## sdelli

My suggestion to this thread is be careful how much investment of your inventory you put into Chilean... I stopped using them all together a couple years ago. The price is attractive but you get what you pay for. There are much better sources to invest and get a good wine. I have a few bottles in the cellar from 2 years ago and use them as give aways. Taste ok but not a stellar wine. My inventory from CA is always top shelf people love to death!


----------



## JohnT

Johnd said:


> I think, in general, that freezing is a good thing, as it gives some additional "cold soak" time as it freezes and then thaws, and that helps release the goodies. Having done lots of frozen musts, I've not noticed any issues that i would attribute to freezing, but that's just personal experience.



I was just asking because I have no experience with frozen must.


----------



## cgallamo

Chileans sure, but how about the Spaniards. Is that in bottles yet?


----------



## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> Chileans sure, but how about the Spaniards. Is that in bottles yet?



Good memory!!! No, not bottled yet, but they have been moving through the process. I took a bunch of wines out of barrels (Chileans), and put some new ones into barrels in the last few weeks, the Montsant Merlot is in barrels now (two 6 gallon Vadai), but the tempranillo is not. When the 12 gallon Vadai frees up from the Lanza Cab 169, the two carboys of Tempranillo will go in there.


----------



## Boatboy24

sdelli said:


> My suggestion to this thread is be careful how much investment of your inventory you put into Chilean... I stopped using them all together a couple years ago.



I stayed away last year but will dip my toe back into the pool this year. I'm going to try two things that are different from my previous practices: 1) no added sulfite prior to fermentation and 2) co-innoculation of MLB. My last batches of Chilean never finished MLF and I believe that is due at least in part to sulfite levels. Additionally, because I tried for many months to get MLF to complete, I think VA took over. I'm not certain, but we'll see what happens. I'm going to try a single batch of Carmenere/Petite Verdot field blend. This will mimic a favorite Chilean wine of mine (Purple Angel). We'll see how it goes. If I can produce something good, I'll continue. If not, that'll be the last of my efforts from 'down south' and I'll stick w/ west coast wines in the fall.


----------



## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> I stayed away last year but will dip my toe back into the pool this year. I'm going to try two things that are different from my previous practices: 1) no added sulfite prior to fermentation and 2) co-innoculation of MLB. My last batches of Chilean never finished MLF and I believe that is due at least in part to sulfite levels. Additionally, because I tried for many months to get MLF to complete, I think VA took over. I'm not certain, but we'll see what happens. I'm going to try a single batch of Carmenere/Petite Verdot field blend. This will mimic a favorite Chilean wine of mine (Purple Angel). We'll see how it goes. If I can produce something good, I'll continue. If not, that'll be the last of my efforts from 'down south' and I'll stick w/ west coast wines in the fall.



I'm with you on the SO2, think I suffered the same fate. I hadn't started coinoculation at that point, but it's one of the things that led me to first give it a whirl. Hope you hit the next batch out of the park!


----------



## Ajmassa

@Johnd and @Boatboy24 - you guys are gonna have to do me a solid this spring then. I know you both own Vinmetricas correct? So at crush (or thaw) let’s put those to use and see what we are actually working with! If you do, please share the results. 
Harford and my supplier in nj carry a lot of the same grapes. I’d think those so2 pads/misted trucks/ etc.. would effect other varietals very similarly. 
And just a matter of time before doing frozen must. 
——for the record I couldn’t be happier with how my 9 month old Chilean grapes are coming along. I Even sent a couple in to be evaluated to a contest and receive back some notes.


----------



## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @Johnd and @Boatboy24 - you guys are gonna have to do me a solid this spring then. I know you both own Vinmetricas correct? So at crush (or thaw) let’s put those to use and see what we are actually working with! If you do, please share the results.



Be happy to do so if I do Chileans this spring, which is doubtful at the moment. I’m contemplating cutting back on production, doing one large batch per year, fresh grapes from the west coast, aged in French. Plans do change, we’ll see what happens........


----------



## ceeaton

I agree with @sdelli, you get what you pay for. The main reason I love doing Chilean grapes is that they are cheap (and they fall at a time when I'm for the most part beer brewing not wine making, except for an occasional racking). I like the idea of using the Chilean products to help me learn and practice the basics in wine making. Keeping things clean to begin with, taking readings and adjusting numbers, keeping the yeast happy during the ferment, adding the MLB and seeing if MLF is complete, oh, and actually keeping up with my note taking.

Someday I'll grow up and be willing to take a chance that the skills I've learned along the way will justify making a wine from pricey ingredients. Until I prove to myself I can handle the process, I'm sticking with the cheaper stuff and occasionally doing a batch of better grapes in the Fall from California, or local ones I can get 'round here.


----------



## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @Johnd and @Boatboy24 - you guys are gonna have to do me a solid this spring then. I know you both own Vinmetricas correct? So at crush (or thaw) let’s put those to use and see what we are actually working with! If you do, please share the results.
> Harford and my supplier in nj carry a lot of the same grapes. I’d think those so2 pads/misted trucks/ etc.. would effect other varietals very similarly.
> And just a matter of time before doing frozen must.
> ——for the record I couldn’t be happier with how my 9 month old Chilean grapes are coming along. I Even sent a couple in to be evaluated to a contest and receive back some notes.



Good idea. I have the SC-100. I need to order some new reagents soon.


----------



## JohnT

ceeaton said:


> I agree with @sdelliThe main reason I love doing Chilean grapes is that they are cheap



Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon). 

What have you been paying?


----------



## Johnd

JohnT said:


> Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).
> 
> What have you been paying?



After the comments about the Chileans last night, wifey and I popped one of the cabs, bottled last month, and drank it. It’s better than when bottled, and that distinctive taste I described is barely discernible, if not gone. Definitely moved up a notch or two in a short time, still hope on the horizon!

They’re not cheap for me either!! After being shipped from Chile, I pay to have them C/D, frozen, and shipped again, it’s serious business for me as well.


----------



## ceeaton

JohnT said:


> Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).
> 
> What have you been paying?


I'll clarify, cheap compared to the frozen buckets from Brehem. I'm paying about what you are paying. Also, I tend to get a juice bucket and add one 18 lbs lug of grapes, which keeps 6+ gallons of finished wine under $100 (thanks to @Boatboy24 for leading me in that direction). The exception was a Bordeaux like blend I did in 2015, a Merlot bucket, plus an 18 lb lug each of Malbec, Cab Sauv and Merlot. It turned out pretty well in my opinion (as well as your groups' since you scored it as a 17.88).


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> I agree with @sdelli, you get what you pay for. The main reason I love doing Chilean grapes is that they are cheap
> 
> Craig, I find at least the Chilean grapes to be more expensive then the Cali since you're only getting half the amount. The juices are about the same.


----------



## mainshipfred

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm going to try two things that are different from my previous practices: 1) no added sulfite prior to fermentation and 2) co-innoculation of MLB.
> 
> I realize co-innoculation has shown success for some and the flavor profile is a personal thing. But in my first wine making class we were discussing the 2 methods. What I learned, and I hope I remember this correctly, when co-innoculation is done the bacteria is more aggressive toward the nutrients and starves the yeast slowing the alcoholic fermentation. Once MLF is complete the yeast has a new food source being the diacetyl produced by the bacteria. Thus reducing the buttery flavor. It's still softer but without the butter. I also learned the Malic to Lactic conversion is about half which would explain why the ph increases after MLF. That's probably the most interesting thing although a bunch of trivial topics were discussed.


----------



## Boatboy24

mainshipfred said:


> I realize co-innoculation has shown success for some and the flavor profile is a personal thing. But in my first wine making class we were discussing the 2 methods. What I learned, and I hope I remember this correctly, when co-innoculation is done the bacteria is more aggressive toward the nutrients and starves the yeast slowing the alcoholic fermentation. Once MLF is complete the yeast has a new food source being the diacetyl produced by the bacteria. Thus reducing the buttery flavor. It's still softer but without the butter. I also learned the Malic to Lactic conversion is about half which would explain why the ph increases after MLF. That's probably the most interesting thing although a bunch of trivial topics were discussed.



Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Fred.


----------



## ibglowin

Here is a pretty good paper from Lallemand on the benefits of co-inoculation and what happens differently vs inoculation post AF.

http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf

Yes if you want a buttery Chard you should not do co-inoculation.

The conversion of Malic to Lactic is the same in both procedures. The pH shift occurs because you are replacing a strong acid (Malic) with a weaker acid (Lactic).


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> Craig, I find at least the Chilean grapes to be more expensive then the Cali since you're only getting half the amount. The juices are about the same.


Yes, I get that. My main point is that you can't get California grapes in the Spring, unless they are the Brehm or another company's, which are more expensive than the Chilean products. If I could get California/Washington/Oregon or even local grapes in the Spring, I'd buy those before I'd buy the Chilean. But in the Spring the Chilean are the easiest and least expensive winemaking alternative (other than a lower end kit) I can get, so I use them, and make decent wine with them.


----------



## mainshipfred

ibglowin said:


> Here is a pretty good paper from Lallemand on the benefits of co-inoculation and what happens differently vs inoculation post AF.
> 
> http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/WE4-Australia.pdf
> 
> Yes if you want a buttery Chard you should not do co-inoculation.
> 
> The conversion of Malic to Lactic is the same in both procedures. The pH shift occurs because you are replacing a strong acid (Malic) with a weaker acid (Lactic).



Good arcticle, took a while to digest all of it. Some of it seemed a bit contadictory to me (but what's new, this is winemaking) especially the acedic acid references. There were more positives then negatives and the reduction of diacetyl appears to enhance a more fruit foward taste. It mentioned several times the yeast/bacteria selection but other then low S02 and nitrogen production of the yeast it never referenced which yeasts were preferable. It also suggested that bonded sulfites would not have an affect on the growth of the MLB which is slightly different from what I understood.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> Good arcticle, took a while to digest all of it. Some of it seemed a bit contadictory to me (but what's new, this is winemaking) especially the acedic acid references. There were more positives then negatives and the reduction of diacetyl appears to enhance a more fruit foward taste. It mentioned several times the yeast/bacteria selection but other then low S02 and nitrogen production of the yeast it never referenced which yeasts were preferable. It also suggested that bonded sulfites would not have an affect on the growth of the MLB which is slightly different from what I understood.



Funny isn’t it? Bound SO2 affects MLB in one document, not so in another. Coinoculation will put your wine in imminent risk, others say it’s the best. The more I learned, the more I realized just how blurry the lines are, that makes some question super hard to respond to without first asking 10 of your own. It’s also what I love about winemaking, sorta like learning English, there are general rules, but those rules are violated all over the place.


----------



## sdelli

JohnT said:


> Cheap? For me, they are rather expensive. I expect to pay $26 per half-lug (18 pounds) for Chilean. That works out to $52 per full 36 pound lug (or about $20.80 per gallon). In contrast, a full lug of good quality California grapes (in the fall) costs me around $40 or $42 (or $16.80 per gallon).
> 
> What have you been paying?



I think the word cheap should mostly be used in product quality....
Just because you pay a lot of money for something it doesn’t necessarily make it a high end item.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> ... It mentioned several times the yeast/bacteria selection but other then low S02 and nitrogen production of the yeast it never referenced which yeasts were preferable...


Fred, I use the information on this page (http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-america/products/catalogue/) with a grain of salt. Click around and look at the Technical Information they have posted under any one yeast and it will show the a bunch of different items, including MLF compatibility and Suitability for co-innoculation. Here's and example for AMH:
*Fermentation Speed*
Slow

*Lag Phase*
Long

*MLF Compatibility*
Strongly recommended

*Nitrogen Needs*
Moderate

*Alcohol Tolerance*
15 %

*Volatile Acidity*
Low

*SO₂ Production*
Low

*Max. Temperature*
30 °C

*Min. Temperature*
20 °C

*H₂S 170ppm*
Low

*H₂S 60ppm*
Low

*Suitability for co-Inoculation*
Very recommended

Hope that is useful.


----------



## mainshipfred

ceeaton said:


> Fred, I use the information on this page (http://www.lallemandwine.com/north-america/products/catalogue/) with a grain of salt. Click around and look at the Technical Information they have posted under any one yeast and it will show the a bunch of different items, including MLF compatibility and Suitability for co-innoculation. Here's and example for AMH:
> *Fermentation Speed*
> Slow
> 
> *Lag Phase*
> Long
> 
> *MLF Compatibility*
> Strongly recommended
> 
> *Nitrogen Needs*
> Moderate
> 
> *Alcohol Tolerance*
> 15 %
> 
> *Volatile Acidity*
> Low
> 
> *SO₂ Production*
> Low
> 
> *Max. Temperature*
> 30 °C
> 
> *Min. Temperature*
> 20 °C
> 
> *H₂S 170ppm*
> Low
> 
> *H₂S 60ppm*
> Low
> 
> *Suitability for co-Inoculation*
> Very recommended
> 
> Hope that is useful.



It is, thank you. Never used AHM.


----------



## ceeaton

mainshipfred said:


> It is, thank you. Never used AHM.


I just used that as an example. I have used AMH, it takes nearly twice as long to get a fermentation completed, so it's good if you want a bit more skin contact, plus I have no issues with the flavor profile so far (and didn't have an issue sequentially innoculation MLB in my Lanza Zin).


----------



## Ajmassa

After reading loads and loads of these MLF articles and studies about co inoculation vs sequential I now have a pretty good grasp on the deal. And Adding no so2 has served me well. Because for my money the pros outweigh the potential cons. 
Coinoculation in general is quicker and more successful, contrary to chemsistry logic - the low alcohol environment is much more beneficial than they had thought it to be it seems. 
Old school- sequential 
New school - coinoculation. 
Bound so2 affecting so2(true or not) is good to know. I don’t have fancy equipment, but my Chilean grapes already clocked in 35 free ppm at crush last May. No additions made And completed MLF in 3 weeks. No plans on changing this. I did however run into problems when skipping so2 on fall grapes. Those fall plans will be changing however.


----------



## sdelli

Coinoculate....
Field Blend....

It all works and is only decided on the choice you like when making wine. I am more of a control freak so I use neither.


----------



## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> After reading loads and loads of these MLF articles and studies about co inoculation vs sequential I now have a pretty good grasp on the deal. And Adding no so2 has served me well. Because for my money the pros outweigh the potential cons.
> Coinoculation in general is quicker and more successful, contrary to chemsistry logic - the low alcohol environment is much more beneficial than they had thought it to be it seems.
> Old school- sequential
> New school - coinoculation.
> Bound so2 affecting so2(true or not) is good to know. I don’t have fancy equipment, but my Chilean grapes already clocked in 35 free ppm at crush last May. No additions made And completed MLF in 3 weeks. No plans on changing this. I did however run into problems when skipping so2 on fall grapes. Those fall plans will be changing however.



For me, after reading loads and loads of arcticles I'm more confused then ever. Then researching the side bars like Esters, Phenols etc. I've come to realize I know nothing about making wine.


----------



## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> For me, after reading loads and loads of arcticles I'm more confused then ever. Then researching the side bars like Esters, Phenols etc. I've come to realize I know nothing about making wine.



LOL!! So many variables and considerations!! You just gotta find where you’re comfortable and what works for you, I’ve found my success spot and am making some really nice wine. I want to get better, it just takes time and experience, I no longer struggle with the decisions I did a few years ago, experience guides my actions, but I’m still a fledgling.

One professional winemaker I was talking to, on the topic of yeast and MLB made an interesting comment, and I’m paraphrasing, “We use natural yeast for our fermentations, the yeast has been present here for decades and has adapted to the environment, it is a part of the terrior and our wine. Same holds true for our MLF, we don’t add any, and with rare exception, it just happens, even in new barrels, so it’s in there too from the time we pick and crush the grapes.”

I’m not willing to take those risks. Is it in there from the start, or from once used barrels and spread during topping up? Hell, I don’t know. But if it is there the whole time, is that the same as coinoculation? Don’t know that either. Do they really add yeast and MLB and just don’t want to say so? Got me..... Always seem to be more questions than answers, I kinda like that.....you never really get to the end.


----------



## mainshipfred

Johnd said:


> LOL!! So many variables and considerations!! You just gotta find where you’re comfortable and what works for you, I’ve found my success spot and am making some really nice wine. I want to get better, it just takes time and experience, I no longer struggle with the decisions I did a few years ago, experience guides my actions, but I’m still a fledgling.
> 
> One professional winemaker I was talking to, on the topic of yeast and MLB made an interesting comment, and I’m paraphrasing, “We use natural yeast for our fermentations, the yeast has been present here for decades and has adapted to the environment, it is a part of the terrior and our wine. Same holds true for our MLF, we don’t add any, and with rare exception, it just happens, even in new barrels, so it’s in there too from the time we pick and crush the grapes.”
> 
> I’m not willing to take those risks. Is it in there from the start, or from once used barrels and spread during topping up? Hell, I don’t know. But if it is there the whole time, is that the same as coinoculation? Don’t know that either. Do they really add yeast and MLB and just don’t want to say so? Got me..... Always seem to be more questions than answers, I kinda like that.....you never really get to the end.



Like you said before "that makes some question super hard to respond to without first asking 10 of your own".


----------



## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> For me, after reading loads and loads of arcticles I'm more confused then ever. Then researching the side bars like Esters, Phenols etc. I've come to realize I know nothing about making wine.



I hear ya but I don’t pretend to understand every little detail to that extent. Or even try to. Id need a chemistry background. I don’t think I need to anyway. 
But I do feel I’ve got enough of an understating for my own needs. Knowing the “what”s and grasping the “why”s enough to succeed. 
Key words -‘my own needs’. And if I owned a barrel another layer would be added to that. 
Either way I’d bet the farm that so2 shipped Chileans finish MLF at higher rates when sulphite additions at crush are skipped. And if there was ever a time to give natural mlb a shot it would be Chilean since winter isn’t there to crash the party.


----------



## Johnd

Been a little while since I’ve updated this thread, but now really much has happened til today. The last of the Chileans, the 100% Malbec, came out of a vadai a few months ago, just got around to bottling today. Already having monkeyed with the acid, added about 1/8 tsp sulfite to get up to snuff and went to work. 

This was pretty much the dog of the bunch, didn’t really care for it much and figured it’d be a giveaway wine. It’s almost two years old, got 31 bottles filled and corked, with two 3 ounce glasses left over, one for me, one for Mrs. The funny taste it had always had, and a slight bitter tannin in the finish, was barely perceptible about an hour later, and I really liked the wine and changed my tune. 

Wifey forgot about hers and tasted it 6 hours later, as did I. She wanted to open a bottle, which I declined. Don’t know how many years in a bottle equates to 6 hours of breathing, but the future of this wine appears bright.


----------



## Johnd

The Chileans are almost 3 years old now, we drank a bottle of Cab last night to see how it was coming along, and I wasn’t terribly disappointed. I will say that all of the things we know about a wine made from grapes picked too early (IMHO) and didn’t undergo MLF are discernible. It’s a pleasant, fruity wine, light for a Cab, and still a bit tart, mostly just the first sip. Doesn’t have the full bodied, dark, brooding fruit flavors I expect from a Cab. Think I’ll give it some more cellar time, still have 25+ bottles left.....


----------



## baron4406

Johnd said:


> Tasted the Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon yesterday evening, to use a description I read here, the flavor was "meh". I think it's going through a phase of its development in the barrel, this has always had decent fruit, now it has no flavor. I've only read about these stages where different aspects of the wine disappear as they develop, only to return. I'll keep monitoring to see how it progresses. The others are still carboyed.



John my 2017 Syrah was the tastiest wine I've ever made. Out of the barrel it was very fruity and wonderful. I just cracked a bottle this week and was very disappointed. All the flavor seemed to be gone. So I'm aging it more and hoping for the best


----------



## Johnd

baron4406 said:


> John my 2017 Syrah was the tastiest wine I've ever made. Out of the barrel it was very fruity and wonderful. I just cracked a bottle this week and was very disappointed. All the flavor seemed to be gone. So I'm aging it more and hoping for the best



My grape wines, during their youth, go through stages where they’re very disjointed, fruit becomes subdued leaving oak and tannin, etc., and always seem to have rebounded back. Once they’ve passed the 2 year mark or so, I feel like their characteristics are there to stay, and improve as time goes on. Still kinda waiting on this one to mellow a bit, we’ll see what happens. 

Hopefully, giving your Syrah some time to evolve will be rewarding.


----------



## ibglowin

Definitely sounds like it has just entered a "closed" phase for the moment. Time is your best friend here and it will eventually come back around.



baron4406 said:


> John my 2017 Syrah was the tastiest wine I've ever made. Out of the barrel it was very fruity and wonderful. I just cracked a bottle this week and was very disappointed. All the flavor seemed to be gone. So I'm aging it more and hoping for the best


----------



## cmason1957

baron4406 said:


> John my 2017 Syrah was the tastiest wine I've ever made. Out of the barrel it was very fruity and wonderful. I just cracked a bottle this week and was very disappointed. All the flavor seemed to be gone. So I'm aging it more and hoping for the best



I was talking with a winemaker at a winery sometime ago and he described this as the wine becoming "dumb" it forgets what it is supposed to be. After an extra six months to a year in the bottle, it snaps out of it and becomes good again. I don't recall him saying it becomes smart.


----------



## mainshipfred

The wines I have aging are spring and fall 2018 and spring 2019. I haven't yet tasted the 2019s but the 2018s are constantly changing. My spring 2018 Malbec and Carmenere were my favorite shortly after MLF but seemed go downhill after that. The Malbec is now showing promise but not so much for the Carmenere. I blended about 60/40 spring Cab/Malbec, together that are very nice but individually they could use some improvement. As of now the Petite Sirah, Touriga and Syrah are doing nicely while the Petit Verdot and Cab Franc which are my two most quality grapes to date are still a little too harsh to evaulate. So my problem is when are they going to show their true character so I can do a proper blending. I said this probably too many times that I hate bottling because it is so permanent, however I have to bottle something both for inventory purposes and to make room for what is going to be my biggest production season yet. I plan on ~150 gallons this fall.


----------

