# Broad Run Cellars 2016 Fall Crush



## Boatboy24 (Aug 26, 2016)

OK, time to start this year's thread. I just ordered my grapes this morning and am already twitching with anticipation. I ordered 3 lugs each of Lanza Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, and Petite Sirah. The goal this year is to make at least 6 gallons of a blend similar to "The Prisoner", with the rest being primarily single varietal (will probably add some PS to the Syrah and Cab).

New twist: I have a partner this year - my father. He's helped along the way with the 2015's and decided he wanted to 'invest' in this year's project. I'm really looking forward to it.

More posts and pics to come soon!


----------



## TonyR (Aug 26, 2016)

Sounds good and really enjoy the time together, remember photos. I wish my Dad was still around and helping with my wine making, mine passed on not long after I retired from the Navy.


----------



## Kraffty (Aug 26, 2016)

Sounds like we're on a similar track this year. Tentative crush date is oct. 5 or 6. Mike


----------



## ibglowin (Aug 26, 2016)

Make those memories Jim.

Happy Crush!


----------



## JohnT (Aug 26, 2016)

Hoooo boy! 

This is how it starts. I started out with just myself, then my father joined me, then the whole family!!! 

You are gonna need a bigger cellar! 

Do not be surprised that very soon you will say to yourself.. 

"we can fit that tank into the house. All we need is a chainsaw!!!".


----------



## geek (Aug 26, 2016)

I really wish I could have my father helping me.....good for you Jim..!!


----------



## Steve_M (Aug 26, 2016)

To all of us whose parent/s are no longer with us, I raise a glass in their honor!

Jim, enjoy and yes pictures. I too am chomping at the bit.


----------



## geek (Aug 26, 2016)

Jim, what prices are you getting?


----------



## ceeaton (Aug 26, 2016)

https://harfordvineyard.com/suisun-valley-gold-labels-lanza-vineyards-labels/


----------



## Steve_M (Aug 26, 2016)

Why is it that some retailers are publishing their prices and others say they don't have them yet?
Does it have to do with their expected yields?


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 17, 2016)

Well, we got started today with a 'practice run' for just the Zinfandel. Nice, easy trip up to Harford Winery and back with Dad. The grapes were crushed, put into buckets and brought home. I just finished taking initial measurements. Brix at 25.4 and pH at 3.68. I'll test again tomorrow, after the grapes have had a while to soak, but they were crushed yesterday afternoon and have been soaking a bit already. Got them sulfited and will wait for them to warm up. Tomorrow, we'll bottle the 2015's and pitch yeast on this batch. Cab, Syrah and Petite Sirah to follow soon. Last word was they'd be harvested on the 19th, but it has gotten cool there and things have slowed down. 

@ceeaton: let me know tomorrow what your Zin numbers are.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 17, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, we got started today with a 'practice run' for just the Zinfandel. Nice, easy trip up to Harford Winery and back with Dad. The grapes were crushed, put into buckets and brought home. I just finished taking initial measurements. Brix at 25.4 and pH at 3.68. I'll test again tomorrow, after the grapes have had a while to soak, but they were crushed yesterday afternoon and have been soaking a bit already. Got them sulfited and will wait for them to warm up. Tomorrow, we'll bottle the 2015's and pitch yeast on this batch. Cab, Syrah and Petite Sirah to follow soon. Last word was they'd be harvested on the 19th, but it has gotten cool there and things have slowed down.
> 
> @ceeaton: let me know tomorrow what your Zin numbers are.



Hmm, Brix at 25.4, does that mean there is some acid adjusted water in your future? If so, please go into details of the concept since I've never had to do that before, and thanks in advance.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 17, 2016)

I'm not sure I'm going to do it. It's not that high and I'm 'worst casing' the reading - it was somewhere between 25.2 and 25.4. Will probably end up around 15% ABV and 40+% is likely to be blended. My last Zin was at 15+%. There is a good write up on using acidulated water in the MoreWine guide to Red Wine Making.


----------



## zadvocate (Sep 18, 2016)

I'm expecting my Lanza Cab and Zin this week too. Please do let us know the numbers.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 18, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> @ceeaton: let me know tomorrow what your Zin numbers are.



Can't, juice is too cloudy and I ain't got one of them there refractometers. Settling a cylinder of juice in the fridge. Was 28.5 Brix before settling. Nice color already, fruit looked, smelled and tasted excellent. Most seeds are a dark brown. 

When talking with Kevin he thought the initial Kmeta was a waste of time, he said there was not a bad grape in either of our batches, so I punted and added the Lallzyme EX when I got home.

Somewhat worried about the high potential alcohol and getting a secondary MLF to complete. Kevin suggested adding MLF at 5 Brix, before pressing. I just won't be able to keep the grapes for adding to kits if I do that.

Edit: settling pretty quickly, just did a reading and got 26.8 Brix (1.116 @ 50*F (60*F cal hydrometer)), will wait a few more hours and update this, but can see right through the sample at this point, lot's o dregs on the bottom of the cylinder.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 18, 2016)

Dad came over a this afternoon. We bottled the 2015 blends and re-tested brix on the Zin. Was looking closer to 25.6+. Still not messing with it. I added Lallzyme last night and we put in the Opti Red and RP15 in before dinner.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 18, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Dad came over a this afternoon. We bottled the 2015 blends and re-tested brix on the Zin. Was looking closer to 25.6+. Still not messing with it. I added Lallzyme last night and we put in the Opti Red and RP15 in before dinner.



Since I'm so new to this, don't you think those grapes were just awesome? I thought they were the best I've ever bought, except possibly for the Dornfelder I bought last fall, which were about 4 hours from picking when I picked them up.

Edit: Latest Brix reading, 26.4 - sample is crystal clear, so that's what I'm using at this point.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 18, 2016)

Yep, from what I saw, very nice. Still going with AMH, @ceeaton ? I had some delivered with my latest MoreWine order, and debated over the last several days. Now debating on what to use w/ the Cab...


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 18, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep, from what I saw, very nice. Still going with AMH, @ceeaton ? I had some delivered with my latest MoreWine order, and debated over the last several days. Now debating on what to use w/ the Cab...



AMH for the Zinfandel, QA23 for the PG juice bucket for my younger brother, GRE for the White Zin bucket for my wife/friends. Noticing the White Zin bucket has quite a bit of activity, wondering if I should Kmeta and pitch in the a.m. Moving that bucket to a 7.9 gallon fermenter since I don't want to wake up to a mess on the basement carpet, though there are some war wounds from past battles within a few feet of the carboy at this point. Rehydrating the QA23 + Go Ferm right now, not planning on the Red Zin pitch until tomorrow morning.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 18, 2016)

RP15 pitched about 3.5 hours ago. Already nice bubbling noticed. 

I'd hit the White Zin with some Sulfite to at least slow down whatever is going.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 18, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> RP15 pitched about 3.5 hours ago. Already nice bubbling noticed.
> 
> I'd hit the White Zin with some Sulfite to at least slow down whatever is going.



You'll have to hold out a bottle or two from the barrel and we can swap to compare the RP15 and AMH. Or not, you probably need every oz of that to fill your barrel.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 18, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> You'll have to hold out a bottle or two from the barrel and we can swap to compare the RP15 and AMH. Or not, you probably need every oz of that to fill your barrel.



There will be some single varietal bottling, but you'll have to wait.  I'd be very interested to compare, seeing as we got the grapes from the same vineyard.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 19, 2016)

Cap forming this morning. Gave it a little stir and let it go. Should begin formal punchdowns this evening and I'll add the first dose of Fermaid O.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 19, 2016)

BTW, SG 1.114 this morning, pH 3.68, TA 5.9 g/L. Just adding the yeasties now, then scurrying to the bus stop.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 19, 2016)

So, we have identical pH.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 20, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> BTW, SG 1.114 this morning, pH 3.68, TA 5.9 g/L. Just adding the yeasties now, then scurrying to the bus stop.



I did water it down with some acidulated water to 1.110, pH 3.62 and TA 6.1 g/L. The AMH I pitched Monday morning finally showed real signs this afternoon, they weren't kidding about a long lag time. Added some Fermaid O since AMH seems to be a needy yeast.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 26, 2016)

Saturday, the Zin was at 1.000 and we pressed. Also ran up to Harford again to grab the Cabernet Sauvignon and Petite Sirah. Still waiting on the Syrah grapes. The cab came in at 24.4 Brix, with a pH of 3.49. The PS was at 25.2 Brix and 3.81 pH. I added just a touch of tartaric to the PS. I racked the Zin yesterday and got the yeast pitched on the other two. No solid cap as of this morning, but visible signs of fermentation were there.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 29, 2016)

The boys have been helping with morning punch downs the last couple days. Here's Gavin working the Petite Sirah and Brian on the Cab.


----------



## jburtner (Sep 29, 2016)

Is that three lugs each of the PS and th Cab? About 100lbs? Looks great!

Cheers,
Jb


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 29, 2016)

jburtner said:


> Is that three lugs each of the PS and th Cab? About 100lbs? Looks great!
> 
> Cheers,
> Jb



Yep, 3 each - 108lbs. Those are 20gal Brutes. I've had as much as 4 lugs in them at once.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 29, 2016)

It is becoming a family affair. This afternoon, Mrs. Boatboy and I had an appointment and my parents were gracious enough to come over and meet the kids at the bus stop. When we got home, the kids had already taken my father down to the basement and taken care of this afternoon's punchdown. Proud Papa here!

Headed up to Harford (again) tomorrow to pick up the last of this fall's grapes - Lanza Syrah. Gonna take a carboy count tonight and if I have enough space, I may grab a bucket of Viognier. Though I have a '3 Country Cab' kit I also need to get started and want to use my Cab skins. Hmmm. Maybe I buy a carboy too??


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 29, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Maybe I buy a carboy too??



Wish they made a four or two gallon carboy. I always seem to end up with 7 gallon batches when using buckets with grapes or just grapes alone. I have 6 gallon, 5 gallon and 3 gallon carboys, a 2 or 4 gallon one would give me 3 to 12 gallons in 1 gallon increments only using two carboys. Guess I could buy a flex tank, but too many $$$ at this point.

I'm tempted to go down and pick up a Cab Franc bucket, but I don't have my local Cab Franc grapes (vineyard owner thinks next week. I think our recent rains probably gave him a brix setback). So I'm thinking I might use some of my Cab Franc skins with a Malbec kit I have here (Int'l w/skins) since many who have made it here seem ho-hum about the results of the kit. I can try and kick it up a notch with the additional skins and compare it to what @jgmann67 and his brother made earlier this summer (have a sampler bottle right here).


----------



## BlueStimulator (Sep 30, 2016)

Great thread gentemen. I have been learning so much from reading your posts. Sat or Sun I press my Cab S and Cab Franc. Do you guys are petic enzyme when getting fresh grapes?


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 30, 2016)

BlueStimulator said:


> Great thread gentemen. I have been learning so much from reading your posts. Sat or Sun I press my Cab S and Cab Franc. Do you guys are petic enzyme when getting fresh grapes?



I use Lallzyme EX on red/black grape varieties, it really does a good job softening them up and getting good color out of the skins. Then I add Opti-Red or some sort of sacrificial tannin like FT Rouge to hopefully help bind the color and make it more stable over time in the wine. But then I'm new to this, learned that from @Boatboy24 and @ibglowin as well as others.

So I do Kmeta, if I do it at all, 12 hrs add Lallzyme EX, 12 hours add yeasties and tannins/opti-red, then watch the magic happen.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 30, 2016)

Much to my shock and surprise, I have 1 carboy to spare. Will have to see if there's anything to tempt me when I get up there.

@BlueStimulator: I don't use peptic, but as Craig mentioned, Lallzyme EX, followed by OptiRed.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 30, 2016)

Came back with my Syrah grapes (crushed and destemed). Brix at 27.2!!!  I'm not sweating it just yet. Added sulfite and Lallzyme and will remeasure tomorrow. They've been cold soaking since Wed afternoon and the must already has great color. Also picked up the last Viognier bucket they had. Dropped the hydrometer in there and it measured 1.100. Yikes. Its probably sitting at about 50 degrees right now - again, I'll remeasure tomorrow. But I did double check w/ the refractometer and it came in at 23.8 - spot on with the 1.100 SG reading. So I may water it back just a touch. 

@heatherd: I asked about the Traminette and he said they had juice available if I had a bucket. Sadly, I didn't. But we went around to the crush pad where two guys were crushing/destemming and using two buckets at the time. He told me he had another bucket in the cooler for another customer but would give that one to me and fill one of the others currently in use for the other customer who was coming in this weekend. He ran back inside to calculate the price for me. I was getting very excited. Unfortunately, he came back out, only to tell me that he was mistaken - it was ten gallons of Traminette and a 6 gallon bucket of Muscat Canelli. I said "Is that order for Heather?". Sure enough, it was yours. So, without an extra bucket, I ended up not coming home with some Traminette juice.  But at least I have some Viognier.

Checked the SG on the Petite Sirah and Cab that started last weekend. PS is down to 1.002 and the Cab still hanging in at 1.022. Gotta figure out when I'm going to press - I was hoping to do both at the same time, but they're a little far apart.


----------



## geek (Sep 30, 2016)

Jim, did you ask how much for the juice bucket of Muscat Canelli?

I am thinking of picking one up tomorrow, here it goes for $63....yikes...
Very good juice though, I bought 1 in 2014 and very good quality.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 30, 2016)

geek said:


> Jim, did you ask how much for the juice bucket of Muscat Canelli?
> 
> I am thinking of picking one up tomorrow, here it goes for $63....yikes...
> Very good juice though, I bought 1 in 2014 and very good quality.



My bad, Varis. Just looked on their website and it looks like they had grapes only. Maybe @heatherd can provide more insight.


----------



## heatherd (Sep 30, 2016)

geek said:


> Jim, did you ask how much for the juice bucket of Muscat Canelli?
> 
> I am thinking of picking one up tomorrow, here it goes for $63....yikes...
> Very good juice though, I bought 1 in 2014 and very good quality.



Geek,

They are $72 for six gallons.

Their distributor mistakenly stated that they could provide Muscat Canelli juice, and then Harford put it up on their website for sale. I bought a bucket, so Harford ended up having to buy a 57 gallon barrel to fill my order. End result is that they will have extra buckets if you want them. Also, they will not sell this juice in the future, so it is a one-time deal.


----------



## ceeaton (Sep 30, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Came back with my Syrah grapes (crushed and destemed). Brix at 27.2!!!  I'm not sweating it just yet.



I just ate dinner and had some modified Zatarains Jumbalaya, so I'm sweating it a bit (just enough extra essence on the shrimps). Those were Lanza Syrah grapes, right? Seems like lot's o' the Lanza grapes were higher this year. All I can say is that my watered back Zin is smelling and tasting pretty fine right now, good spice, nice alcohol for sure, a wiff of oak from what I threw in for sacrificial tannins, all in all, yum. I did get a full 8 gallons from my batch after a second racking off the gross lees. I had a ton of them and that might have been from the bucket press, might be a little rough on the skins. Time to add some CH16 since the SG was 0.994 this morning (finally).


----------



## geek (Sep 30, 2016)

heatherd said:


> Geek,
> 
> They are $72 for six gallons.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Sep 30, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> I just ate dinner and had some modified Zatarains Jumbalaya, so I'm sweating it a bit (just enough extra essence on the shrimps). Those were Lanza Syrah grapes, right? Seems like lot's o' the Lanza grapes were higher this year. All I can say is that my watered back Zin is smelling and tasting pretty fine right now, good spice, nice alcohol for sure, a wiff of oak from what I threw in for sacrificial tannins, all in all, yum. I did get a full 8 gallons from my batch after a second racking off the gross lees. I had a ton of them and that might have been from the bucket press, might be a little rough on the skins. Time to add some CH16 since the SG was 0.994 this morning (finally).



Yep, these were Lanza as well. I'll be interested to see what the acid is like when I measure tomorrow.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 1, 2016)

Well, along with my very high Brix, came very high pH (not shocking). The syrah started out with a Brix of 27+. With acidulated water, I brought it down to 24.6-24.8. pH started out at a whopping 4.18!!! I adjusted to a targeted 3.7, thinking I don't want to do much more than that. We'll see where we end up after fermentation and MLF. They Viognier started at 1.100, which I adjusted down to 1.096. pH started at 3.82, which I adjusted down to 3.5. Got starters going - QA23 for the Viognier and RP15 for the Syrah. Both were doing well, but the QA23 really took off. I let them go for about 30 minutes and pitched. Went down and checked on them about 30 minutes later - the Viogner was already humming along. The Syrah was showing good signs of fermentation (surface bubbles and movement), but obviously no cap just yet. 

Tomorrow, I'll press the cab and use the spent skins in my 3 Country Cabernet LR from Kenridge.


----------



## geek (Oct 1, 2016)

Don't you love QA23....I think I like it much more than BA11... [emoji4]


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 1, 2016)

geek said:


> Don't you love QA23....I think I like it much more than BA11... [emoji4]



I love the QA23 also, just would like to try the BA11. Everytime I go to order it from MoreWinemaking, it's out of stock. I did two Pinot Grigio buckets this Spring and wanted to use QA23 and BA11 for a side by side comparison (trying to keep everything else the same), but I couldn't get the BA11 in time, so I used D47. Hoping to keep enough bottles to give one of each to @Boatboy24 and @jgmann67 in about 3 years to test the theory that eventually the flavor profile that each yeast imparts on a must converges to an indistinguishable flavor profile (ie. like musts fermented with different yeasts taste the same if given enough aging time).


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 2, 2016)

geek said:


> Don't you love QA23....I think I like it much more than BA11... [emoji4]



It's really cooking. And the Viognier smells incredible. 

Busy afternoon here. Got the Lanza Cabernet pressed. I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't even taste it. Didn't have my 'apprentice' here, so the hands were not as free as they have been for the last few presses. Oh well, there will be plenty of time for that. When that was done, I took about 2 gallons worth of the skins and started my Kenridge Passport LR 3 Country Cabernet on top of them. Didn't pitch any yeast. I'm hoping the MT from the skins will kick things off. If I don't see any activity by morning, I'll pitch the RC212 that came w/ the kit. The Lanza Syrah is in full swing now with punchdowns beginning this afternoon. All is cleaned up and I'm relaxing now.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 8, 2016)

Well, the Viognier was racked to secondary on Thursday evening - it was already at 1.002. Measured the Syrah this morning and its still sitting at 1.020. Thought I might be pressing by today, but its taking its time. Looks like Monday will be the day.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 10, 2016)

Got the Syrah pressed today. In an emergency, I had to go to Total Wine to fetch a half gallon glass growler. With the exception of 1 5 and 1 6 gallon carboy to rack stuff into, I'm out of container space in the winery. Added bonus: I had a good excuse to grab a couple bottles of wine and a small supply of fall themed beer. Coming home from my son's baseball game tonight, I breathed a small sigh of relief knowing I didn't have any punchdowns to do. This harvest has been spread out, with my 4 wines coming in over a three week period. So after 3 weeks of 2-3x daily punchdowns and 3 different pressing sessions, I'm happy for the break. In a couple days, I'll rack and pitch MLB on all 4 batches.


----------



## Johnd (Oct 10, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Got the Syrah pressed today. In an emergency, I had to go to Total Wine to fetch a half gallon glass growler. With the exception of 1 5 and 1 6 gallon carboy to rack stuff into, I'm out of container space in the winery. Added bonus: I had a good excuse to grab a couple bottles of wine and a small supply of fall themed beer. Coming home from my son's baseball game tonight, I breathed a small sigh of relief knowing I didn't have any punchdowns to do. This harvest has been spread out, with my 4 wines coming in over a three week period. So after 3 weeks of 2-3x daily punchdowns and 3 different pressing sessions, I'm happy for the break. In a couple days, I'll rack and pitch MLB on all 4 batches.



Sounds like you're out of the woods. Just heard today that my must is all frozen solid and ready to ship in a week or ten days. Least I'll get all mine done in the same time frame.


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 11, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> With the exception of 1 5 and 1 6 gallon carboy to rack stuff into, I'm out of container space in the winery.



I noticed that this morning when I was looking for an airlock. Luckily I have one left. If I make the Malbec kit I have to get rid of skins that don't fit into my freezer, I have to bottle a batch to open up a carboy (other than my 6 gallon transfer carboy - I always keep one empty one). Then every time I have to rack, I rack to the open 6 gallon one, clean the carboy that I just moved it from, then move it back to the original one. I'd buy more carboys but I'm running out of room unless I start putting random carboys in the kids rooms. Somehow I think my wife's cheery demeanor, when it comes to my wine making addiction, may turn south on me if I do that.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 11, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> I noticed that this morning when I was looking for an airlock. Luckily I have one left. If I make the Malbec kit I have to get rid of skins that don't fit into my freezer, I have to bottle a batch to open up a carboy (other than my 6 gallon transfer carboy - I always keep one empty one). Then every time I have to rack, I rack to the open 6 gallon one, clean the carboy that I just moved it from, then move it back to the original one. I'd buy more carboys but I'm running out of room unless I start putting random carboys in the kids rooms. Somehow I think my wife's cheery demeanor, when it comes to my wine making addiction, may turn south on me if I do that.



I ran out of airlocks last week. Had to order more (got a few stoppers as well) and pay for expedited shipping.


----------



## dcbrown73 (Oct 11, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> I ran out of airlocks last week. Had to order more (got a few stoppers as well) and pay for expedited shipping.



I had to do the same thing. Though I've now switched to the silicon airlock bungs after secondary fermentation completes. Now I just use the standard S airlocks for secondary fermentation and no airlocks during primary.


----------



## JohnT (Oct 11, 2016)

They cost about $2. Why not order a dozen of them????


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 11, 2016)

JohnT said:


> They cost about $2. Why not order a dozen of them????


Some of us like to live dangerously!


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 11, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Some of us like to live dangerously!


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 25, 2016)

OK, finally got the MLB pitched on Friday night. Went down yesterday to stir. The Syrah (in both the 6gal and 1gal containers) is showing a 'gajillion' tiny bubbles rising to the top - great visual evidence that things are progressing. The other three are showing nothing at all. I realized that visual evidence is no indication of anything actually going on, but I'm concerned that I'm going to re-live my Chilean MLF fiasco. Fingers crossed. Interesting note: I still haven't added sulfite to the Carmenere and Merlot from spring. The Carm is showing 'some' small bubbles rising. May simply be degassing, but who knows.

I'll do a chromatography in a week or so to see how things are going. If the Cab, Zin and Petite Sirah aren't showing any signs of progress, I'll repitch.


----------



## Johnd (Oct 25, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> I realized that visual evidence is no indication of anything actually going on, but I'm concerned that I'm going to re-live my Chilean MLF fiasco.
> 
> I'll do a chromatography in a week or so to see how things are going. If the Cab, Zin and Petite Sirah aren't showing any signs of progress, I'll repitch.



FWIW, I sulfited my Chileans this past weekend and moved them into the wine room at 55 degrees, after 4 months with no sulfite and no progress, and after two separate VP41 additions. We're in the same boat there.

Hoping your Lanza stuff goes through MLF well, my pallet of pails is on a truck right now headed down here from M&M, Koch Cab, Clone 169 Cab, Petit Syrah, and Merlot. Using VP41 again.................


----------



## geek (Oct 25, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Interesting note: I still haven't added sulfite to the Carmenere and Merlot from spring. The Carm is showing 'some' small bubbles rising. May simply be degassing, but who knows.



You are much braver than me, that's for sure....


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 25, 2016)

geek said:


> You are much braver than me, that's for sure....



I'll run another chromatography here in the next several days. If I don't notice any progress, I'm going to stabilize. This has gone on much beyond my comfort level already.


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 25, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> I'll run another chromatography here in the next several days. If I don't notice any progress, I'm going to stabilize. This has gone on much beyond my comfort level already.



I'm feeling bad that mine have worked so far, there has to be some reason why yours got stuck, just how do we figure it out, that is what is bugging me.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 25, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> I'm feeling bad that mine have worked so far, there has to be some reason why yours got stuck, just how do we figure it out, that is what is bugging me.



Only thing I can think of is pH (though mine should be consistent with yours).


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 25, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Only thing I can think of is pH (though mine should be consistent with yours).



In an earlier thread you said both of our Zins were identical (3.68). I'll have to retest it now that everything is done. Not sure what your Spring numbers were on those stuck ones, but I believe if I remember correctly, they were fine. Have you tested for radon lately (assuming you had that tested as part of the inspection before buying the house)? I know that is a little far fetched, but I think you've thought of all the normal things.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 25, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> In an earlier thread you said both of our Zins were identical (3.68). I'll have to retest it now that everything is done. Not sure what your Spring numbers were on those stuck ones, but I believe if I remember correctly, they were fine. Have you tested for radon lately (assuming you had that tested as part of the inspection before buying the house)? I know that is a little far fetched, but I think you've thought of all the normal things.



Yep, tested before we bought. We have a walkout basement with 2 doors and 3 or 4 full size windows. And the 2015's were fine (except for the Cab, which had a low pH). Need to retest the pH on the Chileans once they are fully degassed.


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 25, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> In an earlier thread you said both of our Zins were identical (3.68). I'll have to retest it now that everything is done.



Spring Pinot Noir is a pH of 3.32 right now, was 3.33 when fermentation started (after over adjusting from 3.69). Lanza Zin from this fall is a pH of 3.58, believe it started fermentation at 3.68, post fermentation/pre-MLF was 3.54 (yo-yo effect). Note that between the start of fermentation and this measurement I have a new pH meter, which acts much more stable (actually reads 4.01 or very close when I test in 4.01 solution both before and after testing the sample -- looking for repeat-ability).


----------



## geek (Oct 26, 2016)

Craig, which pH meter you now got?


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 26, 2016)

geek said:


> Craig, which pH meter you now got?



A Milwaukee MW101, $92 shipped from Amazon. Had a Hanna pHep 5 before that (still have), but if I put too much pressure on the outside of the unit when I was holding it the readings would change dramatically. Only downfall is that I have to calibrate the MW101 using a turn screw(s) and adjust for temperature, but I'm normally in the 60*F to 80*F range, so it is a small amount and most times negligible (less than a few hundredths of a unit, which is close enough for me).

Someday I hope to get a pH/TA/SO2 unit and I"ll give my MW101 to my older brother or neighbor up the street since they don't have one, yet.


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 26, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep, tested before we bought. We have a walkout basement with 2 doors and 3 or 4 full size windows. And the 2015's were fine (except for the Cab, which had a low pH). Need to retest the pH on the Chileans once they are fully degassed.



Okay, might be reaching here, and at this point there may be no way to test it. In a post on another thread there was the discussion of SO2 levels and pH. In that article (pdf) there was this:

_Different strains of yeast can produce anywhere from 10 ppm to 80 ppm during primary alcoholic fermentation. Most commercial strains for winemaking produce only 10 – 30 ppm, so they are generally preferred._

I researched the yeasts I know you used in the Spring (BM4x4, D254 and RP15 - don't know what you used for the Syrah). And two of them are moderate SO2 producers during fermentation (BM4x4 and RP15), but we would have to find out what is the moderate range. Historically Merlot can also be an issue on it's own when it comes to MLF. 

So is it possible that if the buckets were over sulfited, you may have added sulfite to the whole grapes, and with the added sulfite the yeast produces during fermentation, coupled with certain pH's, could the SO2 be just high enough to make it tough on the MLB, even though I know you used VP41 eventually? (I think your pH's were Cab 3.27, Merlot 3.26, Syrah 3.53 and Carm 3.42).

I think the only way we could have ever known is if we checked the free SO2 level right before pitching the MLB. The common factor in this could be that a lot of us had issues this Spring, which could point to over sulfiting of the buckets, in general.

I know I'm grasping, but I haven't heard any other better ideas yet.

Edit: Interesting short article:

http://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-con...-Wine-Yeast-During-Alcoholic-Fermentation.pdf

Edit 2: an even more interesting booklet, just a little big size wise:

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottlabsHandbook2016.pdf


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2016)

You could be onto something, Craig. Except for the Syrah. Both the Chilean in the spring, and this fall's Syrah were fermented with RP15. Certainly doesn't mean there weren't different SO2 levels in the musts to begin with though. The fall Syrah (at least visibly) is kicking right along with MLF. 

I needed a couple little things and made an order from MoreWine today. I added a packet of CH35 to the order. Seems it is the go-to strain for 'difficult' conditions. I'll take a chromatography next week to see how things are moving. If it doesn't look like they are, I'll pitch the CH35 on the remaining 3 varietals (and maybe the two chileans that haven't yet been sulfited).


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 26, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> You could be onto something, Craig. Except for the Syrah. Both the Chilean in the spring, and this fall's Syrah were fermented with RP15. Certainly doesn't mean there weren't different SO2 levels in the musts to begin with though. The fall Syrah (at least visibly) is kicking right along with MLF.
> 
> I needed a couple little things and made an order from MoreWine today. I added a packet of CH35 to the order. Seems it is the go-to strain for 'difficult' conditions. I'll take a chromatography next week to see how things are moving. If it doesn't look like they are, I'll pitch the CH35 on the remaining 3 varietals (and maybe the two chileans that haven't yet been sulfited).



This Fall's Syrah was all grapes right? Hence the lack of extra SO2 from the buckets in the Spring, which would make some sense. What I'm getting at is maybe those buckets had double the SO2 or even more? We don't know since we didn't crush/press and prep the final buckets.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> This Fall's Syrah was all grapes right? Hence the lack of extra SO2 from the buckets in the Spring, which would make some sense. What I'm getting at is maybe those buckets had double the SO2 or even more? We don't know since we didn't crush/press and prep the final buckets.



Your buckets were fine though, right? And I would have to think that if SO2 levels were too high for CH16 and VP41, that alcoholic fermentation would have at least been challenging. No issues that I recall.


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 26, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Your buckets were fine though, right? And I would have to think that if SO2 levels were too high for CH16 and VP41, that alcoholic fermentation would have at least been challenging. No issues that I recall.



Yes, but I didn't add any Kmeta to my grapes when I brought them home because I hand crushed them and they looked great (I think, I'll have to reread the posts from last Spring). And I didn't get a successful MLF until July with CH35, maybe the levels from the buckets had dropped enough by then? Plus I used RC-212 with my PN batch, which is very conducive to MLF. My hypothesis is that the SO2 production (what isn't used in the Sulfite pathway in fermentation) from the yeast you used was enough to maintain the harsh environment that came with your buckets for the MLB. Plus if you added any Kmeta to the grapes and the pH was at all out of kilter, it might have been enough to inhibit a strong MLF.

I know, it's a stretch, but at least it has me reading and thinking, both of which are rare for me.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2016)

Gotcha. I'll have to go back and confirm that I added sulfite prior to pitching the yeast. Pretty sure I did. But geez, by now, that sulfite should be pretty much zero, no?


----------



## ceeaton (Oct 26, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Gotcha. I'll have to go back and confirm that I added sulfite prior to pitching the yeast. Pretty sure I did. But geez, by now, that sulfite should be pretty much zero, no?



What you added might be, what about what was in the bucket to begin with? I was always under the impression that it all got used up, but I've never tested it before and after fermentation to see if it was all used, or what percentage was used. I think I need me a SO2 test kit.

Remember, this is all thinking out loud. What do people do when they want to act like the GM of a football team, they play fantasy football. What do I do when I pretend to be a real wine maker, I post on here and wait to be corrected!


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 29, 2016)

Pitched CH35 MLB on 3 of the 4 Lanza wines this morning. Since I had enough for 60 gallons, I added some to the Chileans too.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 4, 2016)

I'm gonna have to redo this - put them too close together and too close to the left edge. But as you can see, the 4 on the right (the spring chileans) haven't done much MLF. The others on the left seem to be making a tiny bit of progress, despite a lack of visible bubbles in all but the Syrah. So I'm pleased with that. It's been just a week since I pitched CH-35 in all of them. I'm hoping that it might kick start the Chileans. I still haven't sulfited the Carmenere or the Merlot. The Carm has been showing some bubbles over the last 10 days.


----------



## ceeaton (Nov 4, 2016)

I've heard of a shotgun start for a golf tournament...that's pretty darn impressive!

Your Zin and PS seem to be moving a bit. Actually your Cab does too. I'm assuming you didn't do one before pitching to compare it to?


----------



## geek (Nov 5, 2016)

That looks like the teeth X-ray they take at the dentist, the panoramic one [emoji16][emoji16]


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 5, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> I'm assuming you didn't do one before pitching to compare it to?



I did not.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 5, 2016)

The Viognier is at 0.992 so I racked this morning and added sulfite. It is wonderfully aromatic and is already tasting great. High hopes for this one! I've got some haze (likely from the dried pineapple and mango I added to primary), so I'm going to hit it with some pectic enzyme. 

Also topped up the barrels and gave everything going through (or attempting to go through) MLF a stir. 

On a non grape wine related note, I re-racked the 3 Country Cab and added the clarifiers. Still some H2S, but it is dissipating.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Nov 28, 2016)

Well, things are progressing for the 4 CA wines (left side). For the Chileans, perhaps some movement on the Carmenere and Syrah, but little, if any, on the others.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jan 5, 2017)

Over the holidays, I did another Chromo and the 4 Lanza wines are done. 

And wouldn't you know? The Carmenere from Spring harvest was done as well. That is the only one of the 4 that completed MLF. No progress on the other 3.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Jan 14, 2017)

Racked and stabilized all 4 today. They are tasting fantastic.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Dec 10, 2017)

Dad and I did some blending trials today. My intention was to use most of these four wines to make a blend in the style of "The Prisoner". All 4 have been tasting fantastic on their own and I was really excited to taste my first crack at that blend. Come to find out, it was rather disappointing. After we tasted the blend, we tasted all 4 individually (we'd already done so about a month ago) and determined that no single wine was leading to the 'less than expected' experience. We then tested a few blends with two or three of the four. Holy cow, they were so much better. I guess these four, even though they were very good on their own, didn't play well when all 4 were combined. One slightly different blend was much better than the initial, but we are going to make four, primarily single varietal, wines, with the bulk of the leftovers going toward a blend that was different than what was originally planed. 

The best laid plans...


----------



## Johny99 (Dec 10, 2017)

Wow, ambitious! I have trouble blending two!


----------



## ibglowin (Dec 10, 2017)

You just need to blend up a case or two as an experiment. Shotgun marriages take some time. Honestly your making a mistake to not blend up some of these wines in a Prisoner fashion and see what they turn into down the road. I speak from experience here.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Dec 10, 2017)

ibglowin said:


> You just need to blend up a case or two as an experiment. Shotgun marriages take some time. Honestly your making a mistake to not blend up some of these wines in a Prisoner fashion and see what they turn into down the road. I speak from experience here.



Agree. That was my big question to my dad: 'Do you want something that is good now, or something that will be great in 2-3 years?" The answer was "yes".  So we're doing a few different things - one of which will certainly be the Prisoner style blend.


----------



## mainshipfred (Dec 11, 2017)

I mentioned this is an earlier post. My wife and I went to a blending competition. We had 5 wines to work with. Made 5 different blends and really didn't think any of them were special. We had to enter one and did not win but the experience was fun. I did wonder if or how the blends would turn out after some aging. I think blending is an art. My first attempt at blending my wines will be sometime in August or September.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Feb 2, 2018)

Well, tomorrow is bottling day - at least for as much as we can get done. With a couple minor tweaks for the sake of filling containers if we need them, here are the final 2016's:


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 2, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, tomorrow is bottling day - at least for as much as we can get done. With a couple minor tweaks for the sake of filling containers if we need them, here are the final 2016's:
> 
> View attachment 46208



Sounds like a fun day, enjoy your time with your dad.


----------



## ceeaton (Feb 2, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> ... and 40+% is likely to be blended.


Hmmm, where's the other 60%...I guess best laid plans change!



Boatboy24 said:


> Well, tomorrow is bottling day - at least for as much as *we* can get done.


Don't let your Dad drink up the profits, I know he drinks like a fish! 

Just kidding, I hope you have fun with your Dad. Like others have said I'd love to go back in time and spend a day like that with him (my Dad, not yours, though yours seemed like a lot of fun the time I met him).


----------



## Boatboy24 (Feb 2, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> Hmmm, where's the other 60%...I guess best laid plans change!



Sorry. Originally said 40% would be the blend. Ended up with 44.8%. I beg your forgiveness.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Feb 3, 2018)

Well, we were surprised to find some sediment in the Syrah and a little bit in the Zin. No bottling today. We mixed up all the blends and have them resting in carboys. Bottling in a few weeks.


----------



## mainshipfred (Feb 3, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Well, we were surprised to find some sediment in the Syrah and a little bit in the Zin. No bottling today. We mixed up all the blends and have them resting in carboys. Bottling in a few weeks.



Well heck Jim, that's a kick in the butt. I know you were looking forward to it.


----------



## Boatboy24 (Feb 3, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Well heck Jim, that's a kick in the butt. I know you were looking forward to it.



Eh, no big deal. My biggest disappointment is I may have to wait to start one of my white wine kits. It still took us a while to get everything blended up, and Dad was able to get some more of their stuff out of the basement.  As he said, the wine will wait.


----------

