# Zinfandel: how do you prefer to oak it?



## ceeaton (Aug 23, 2016)

I'm ordering about 100 lbs of Zinfandel from Harford Vineyards this fall, and since I need to order some new Sodium Hydroxide solution (since mine has lost it's punch) I'm thinking of ordering oak for my Fall grape batches. The two white juice buckets don't need any oak (Pinot Grigio and White Zin), but I'm ordering some Lanza Zin grapes and something "red" locally, either Noriet, Cab Franc or maybe Regent.

So most important to me, how would you oak a Zinfandel? I've heard not to over oak since you want the fruity and spicy flavors to dominate. If you've made a California Zin in the past, how have you oaked it and with age how do you feel it turned out? Would you do it the same, would you cut it back or would you add a bunch more oak?

Thanks in advance of any responses. Give me something to think about, then I won't post so many posts here, since I'm so deep in thought considering your answers.


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## ibglowin (Aug 23, 2016)

I do a 50/50 blend of American and French oak.


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## Johnd (Aug 23, 2016)

When mine's ready, it'll go in the Vadai along with some American wine stix, so it'll be Hungarian/American.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 23, 2016)

I've had commercial zins with what seemed like no oak, and some with heavy oak. All were enjoyable. You'll have enough for about 6 gallons - split it up and go heavy on one and extra light on the other. You may end up with two wines that you like for different reasons. If not, blend them.


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## ceeaton (Aug 23, 2016)

Oaky, please define in your mind, the amount of oz of oak per gallon (or six gallons) to start with. I realize I need to taste it as it goes along, but I need a starting point as reference. You can define a low end and a high end, and maybe I'll try out what Boatboy Jim said since I have a ton of 3 gallon carboys (at least 5 now not in use, yet). 

I've been looking at chips for the primary and anything from cubes to spirals to these new "balls" that last so long, but I'm still not planning to get a barrel just yet. I need a better SO2 testing solution before then. And right now I'm downright poor monetarily, but blessed with other things, just can't make wine with them.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 24, 2016)

I use cubes and 2-3 oz per 6 gallons is where I start. Give 'em 6+ weeks, tasting along the way, as you said. I like the French Oak cubes from MoreWine.


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## TonyR (Aug 24, 2016)

I like the oak spirals, Easy to use, 1 spiral per 6 gal for a light oak flavor, 2 for a heavy flavor. I use medium toast American oak.


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## JohnT (Aug 24, 2016)

I like my wines oaky, especially a nice hearty Zin. My preference is 4oz of med toast Hungarian Oak Beans. 

For what it is worth, this all is really a matter of taste. There is no hard, fast rule that says that you even need to add oak at all. 

If you do like oak in your wine, try starting with 2oz. Give it 6 weeks or so for extraction. Then taste, and if you want more oak, add another 2 oz.


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## Floandgary (Aug 24, 2016)

So Craig (ceeaton) since you're in the learning/trial mode, Jim's suggestion of a split with 2 different approaches would provide you with a bounty of info to work with. As he said, you can always simply blend them back together but you will have at least 2 sets of results for future installments!


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## heatherd (Aug 24, 2016)

I made Zinfandel from Harford in 2014, and used a light hand with the oak.

Also to consider, whether you want to MLF. I have heard a few folks say no, but I did with mine and it turned out well.


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## ceeaton (Aug 24, 2016)

Floandgary said:


> So Craig (ceeaton) since you're in the learning/trial mode, Jim's suggestion of a split with 2 different approaches would provide you with a bounty of info to work with. As he said, you can always simply blend them back together but you will have at least 2 sets of results for future installments!



I think that is a great idea, especially since I have so many 3 gallon glass carboys all of a sudden (a wine making friend moved and didn't want to move the carboys, so he gave them to me). I may also do that with my Dornfelder batch since I'm on the fence as whether or not to add more oak. I have 8 gallons, I could bottle 4 or 5 gallons and up the oak on the remainder.



heatherd said:


> I made Zinfandel from Harford in 2014, and used a light hand with the oak.
> 
> Also to consider, whether you want to MLF. I have heard a few folks say no, but I did with mine and it turned out well.


 Plan on an MLF, already have a yeast (AMH) and MLB (CH16) at home and ready to use.

And JohnT, your right, it's a matter of my tastes. If I go too light, I can up it next time I make it. If I go to heavy I'll give it all to @jgmann67 , since he likes his oak.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 24, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> ...Plan on an MLF, already have a yeast (AMH)...



Every time I hear that yeast mentioned, I think of Seinfeld...


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## dcbrown73 (Aug 24, 2016)

I did a split oaking on my Chardonnay. ((2) 3 gallon batches) I'm quite happy with both, but it gave me some ideas of where to find a middle ground even though I actually think one is getting close to exactly what I want.


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## JohnT (Aug 25, 2016)

There is a lot of factors that can influence the type and size of oak that you use. A number of years ago, I wrote an article about it. Here is the link. Perhaps this might help your decisions...

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/take-on-oak.html


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## Norton (Aug 27, 2016)

John t,
Perhaps you can answer a question for me. I have read that cubes take two months to 12 months to work. However, kit wines that include cubes only say to leave them in for 2 weeks. Do you know if there is a difference in the cubes in kit winds or is there some other reason to only leave them in for two weeks?


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## GEM (Sep 3, 2016)

No reason to take them out that soon, unless you think it is Oakes enough. Generally use 2-5 oz of cubes per carbon. I take them out around the 2-3D racking.


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## JohnT (Sep 6, 2016)

Norton said:


> John t,
> Perhaps you can answer a question for me. I have read that cubes take two months to 12 months to work. However, kit wines that include cubes only say to leave them in for 2 weeks. Do you know if there is a difference in the cubes in kit winds or is there some other reason to only leave them in for two weeks?


 
I would think that the cubes in kits are the same. 

A lot depends on what you are trying to extract from the cubes and also the toast/type of oak you are dealing with. For myself, I like a medium toast Hungarian oak and have found that between 6 to 8 weeks will extract most of what the oak has to offer. Keep in mind that I am targeting the caramelization layer that sits deeper in the wood. If you are going for a pure "toasted wood" characteristic, you will not need as much exposure.


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## ceeaton (Sep 19, 2016)

Oaky, the plan at this point is as follows. A couple of ounces of French oak chips in the primary for some sacrificial tannins (not using FT Rouge for a change). Will split the batch, hoping for 8 gallons (108 lbs of fruit + 2 quarts acidulated water), so will end up with a 3 and 5 gallon carboy. One will get 8 French Xoakers M+ (the three gallon one), the other will get a soon to be determined amount of American M+ cubes. After a few months on the 5 gallon carboy, may add more. If the literature on the Xoakers is correct, their useful life is 12 months. Imagine that, me aging a wine for over a year, damn, miracles do happen.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 19, 2016)

Another option, Craig: I'm enjoying a bourbon barrel aged Zin tonight. Maybe you should soak some cubes in some good bourbon first. ::


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## ceeaton (Sep 19, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Another option, Craig: I'm enjoying a bourbon barrel aged Zin tonight. Maybe you should soak some cubes in some good bourbon first. ::



That is an option, but I never really developed a palate for bourbon whiskey. I do enjoy it occasionally, usually as a shot with my beer at the end of a weekend night. Goes really well with an ultra hoppy beer (thinking Founders IPA). My Dad loved his bourbon/whiskey. Wild Turkey was his favorite. Also remember a lot of Old Grandad empties in the recycling bin.


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## ceeaton (Sep 20, 2016)

BTW, if you use AMH yeast, definitely rehydrate, add any nutrients (like Go Ferm) and make a starter using 10% of the must. This one definitely has a long lag time, took 24 hours until it showed "some" signs of life, then up to 32 hours until some cap formation started. Now at 38 hours and I'm doing my first punch down, and it isn't all that thick of a cap. Lallamand does say it is a long lag/slow fermentor. Hoping I can press by next Sunday, before the Eagles/Steelers game, but that may not work out, guess the wine will have to wait, I have priorities, you know.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 20, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> BTW, if you use AMH yeast, definitely rehydrate, add any nutrients (like Go Ferm) and make a starter using 10% of the must. This one definitely has a long lag time, took 24 hours until it showed "some" signs of life, then up to 32 hours until some cap formation started. Now at 38 hours and I'm doing my first punch down, and it isn't all that thick of a cap. Lallamand does say it is a long lag/slow fermentor. Hoping I can press by next Sunday, before the Eagles/Steelers game, but that may not work out, guess the wine will have to wait, I have priorities, you know.



I ended up getting some AMH, but didn't use it for that reason. I've got a schedule to keep!!


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## ceeaton (Sep 20, 2016)

I added my first addition (5 g) of Fermaid O and threw in my Opti-red, and I can tell that it has picked up some steam. Cap is about 2 inches thick (hard to tell the cap and the rest since it's all grapes at this point). Currently listening to two juice buckets bubble (a Pinot Grigio and a White Zin, both mine and my older brothers white Zin needed larger quarters, acted more like a red than a white). They are now dueling...I could fall asleep to this...zzzzzzzzzz.


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## jburtner (Sep 20, 2016)

You need to mic them up and send a feed to speakers in your bedroom.



Cheers!
-jb


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## ceeaton (Oct 11, 2016)

The Zin is going through MLF at the moment, have read that adding some oak gives some nooks and crannies for the MLB to attach to, so opened the X-oakers pack to throw some in. Wow, what an intense aroma, even my wife who doesn't fancy oak liked it. My boy (17.5 yr old) guessed it was oak but thought it was Hungarian, nice try. Put two in and realized I was running out of space in the carboy, so have food saved the balance until I rack after MLF. Holding off on the American cubes for the other carboy until I rack that one also.


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## ceeaton (Oct 20, 2016)

Hard to believe, I'm at work so I'll have to check my pitch date, but I show a chromatography on 10/3 (on another thread), so I doubt I pitched before that date. The Zin appears almost done. Guess that stirring every third day or so is the key for me.

Will let this hang out for a few more weeks and retest when @jgmann67 sends me samples on his PS and Chardonnay, then I'll rack and do the Kmeta thing and add some oak.

Edit: pitched it 10/4 in the morning before school bus/work. I took the sample 10/18 just before going to bed, so exactly two weeks, amazing.


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## jgmann67 (Oct 21, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Will let this hang out for a few more weeks and retest when @jgmann67 sends me samples on his PS and Chardonnay, then I'll rack and do the Kmeta...




I was thinking of shooting a couple samples your way next weekend, actually. The chard is most likely done. And, the PS is probably there too.


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## ceeaton (Oct 23, 2016)

jgmann67 said:


> I was thinking of shooting a couple samples your way next weekend, actually. The chard is most likely done. And, the PS is probably there too.



Just use those syringes and put each in a baggie and hand off to my brother. Just don't do it in front of the cameras or we'll see your mug shot in the local paper. Remember, I don't need a whole bunch.


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## jgmann67 (Oct 23, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Just use those syringes and put each in a baggie and hand off to my brother. Just don't do it in front of the cameras or we'll see your mug shot in the local paper. Remember, I don't need a whole bunch.




Will do. Tasted the Chard this weekend. It's very soft... pleasant.


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## ceeaton (Nov 21, 2016)

Finally got around to racking and adding some Kmeta. Added the rest of the French Med + Xoakers to the three gallon batch (now 8 spheres total) and 60 g of American Med + cubes to the 5 gallon carboy. Actually didn't taste as after adding the oak I didn't need to top up.

If I was thinking, which I don't do on a consistent basis, I would have either put cubes in both, or spheres in both to better compare American vs. French oak profiles. Oh well, I'm sure I'll make another Zin batch at some point. Smelled really good and had nice dark color (much darker than the Cab Franc and Pinot Noir batches).


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## ceeaton (Oct 6, 2018)

I finally racked this, for what I was thinking the last time. It's been AIO racked 4 times (and also racked with gravity almost as many as AIO). It still has CO2 *&@#$%! Guess I'm gonna let it warm up a bit (it's been in the basement all two years of it's existence since I bought the grapes) and AIO rack it again tonight or tomorrow, I was really hoping to get this one bottled today. Oh well, took a taste (since the aroma was fantastic) and the oak isn't overdone (Xoakers in it for almost two years) and it is very enjoyable. Extremely clear, as it should be, need to bottle so I can enjoy some for Thanksgiving!


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## ceeaton (Nov 23, 2018)

Finally bottled this morning. AIO'ed it several times, the CO2 seems to have dissipated. Set out a small leftover sample for the resident fruit flies. They seemed to like it, so I'm guessing there is still some fruit in the flavor profile. Made up one small sampler (375 ml) that I'll try around Christmas time.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 23, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> Finally bottled this morning. AIO'ed it several times, the CO2 seems to have dissipated. Set out a small leftover sample for the resident fruit flies. They seemed to like it, so I'm guessing there is still some fruit in the flavor profile. Made up one small sampler (375 ml) that I'll try around Christmas time.



It might be time to take the mittens off and actually enjoy this wine! Over 2 years old, I think you can splurge and crack a full bottle at Christmas........ or now. 
My personal opinion— bottle shock is an old wives tale! Drink up


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 24, 2018)

Can't believe you still had CO2 in there, but agree w/ AJ. Drink up, dude!


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## ceeaton (Nov 24, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Can't believe you still had CO2 in there, but agree w/ AJ. Drink up, dude!


 Yeah, surprised me too. Well if there is CO2 in there, not as much chance of oxidizing the wine, which is a good thing since I've become so "patient" with my wines lately.


Ajmassa5983 said:


> It might be time to take the mittens off and actually enjoy this wine! Over 2 years old, I think you can splurge and crack a full bottle at Christmas........ or now.
> My personal opinion— bottle shock is an old wives tale! Drink up



I think we have a get together possibly planned with the whole family over Christmas/New Years, I'll take one of those with me to try out. I've got a Pinot Noir that I bottled 6 months ago that is now 31 months old that I need to try first, maybe today. Didn't do anything special for me the last time I tried it, but Pinots can be fickle.


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## JimInNJ (Nov 24, 2018)

Are there still separate xoaker/cube batches?

Eagerly awaiting Christmas for an update on this thread.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 24, 2018)

I think we have a get together possibly planned with the whole family over Christmas/New Years, I'll take one of those with me to try out. I've got a Pinot Noir that I bottled 6 months ago that is now 31 months old that I need to try first, maybe today. Didn't do anything special for me the last time I tried it, but Pinots can be fickle.[/QUOTE]

Is there any way I can block threads that talk about 2 year old wines let alone 31 months. I'll unblock them in 2020. LOL!


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## ceeaton (Nov 24, 2018)

JimInNJ said:


> Are there still separate xoaker/cube batches?
> 
> Eagerly awaiting Christmas for an update on this thread.


Cubes went to @jgmann67 to blend with a Lanza Petite Sirah he made at the same time. What I just bottled was the Xoaker batch, the oak is assertive but not overwhelming or sharp in nature.


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## ceeaton (Nov 24, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Is there any way I can block threads that talk about 2 year old wines let alone 31 months. I'll unblock them in 2020. LOL!


You are just jealous because you drink like a fish and can't keep them around that long!

Just kidding, have only recently developed my hands off policy to let them age. I think the quantity I have amassed has helped with that endeavor. Also letting them in the carboy and not "tipping" them on a regular basis has helped too.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 24, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> You are just jealous because you drink like a fish and can't keep them around that long!
> 
> Just kidding, have only recently developed my hands off policy to let them age. I think the quantity I have amassed has helped with that endeavor. Also letting them in the carboy and not "tipping" them on a regular basis has helped too.



Hmmmmm. I seem to recall a time when you referred to your racking cane as one big ass straw! New policy must have been implemented after this I guess ! Lol

Oh- and I think our boy Fred isn’t gonna have any issues with the quantity needed for ability to age. We witnessed his addiction spiral out of control throughout 2018!


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## ceeaton (Nov 24, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Oh- and I think our boy Fred isn’t gonna have any issues with the quantity needed for ability to age. We witnessed his addiction spiral out of control throughout 2018!


I think he spiraled out of control while he was making his first batch. I remember him talking barrel purchases before his first wine was bottled! I love how this hobby sucks you in and takes control of your life so quickly...


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## Ajmassa (Nov 24, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> I think he spiraled out of control while he was making his first batch. I remember him talking barrel purchases before his first wine was bottled! I love how this hobby sucks you in and takes control of your life so quickly...



Sure does. But this forum was the catalyst for me. I made wine for years as just a fun hobby I did once a year. And it was only after I had an issue and needed to do some research did I find WMT and started to get fully sucked in. 
Having a welcoming community to learn from and bounce ideas off of really changed everything for me. And actually Craig you were the first one to respond to me on a personal level- noticing my Eagles shot glasses. And here I am 2,700 posts later lol.


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## ceeaton (Nov 24, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> And actually Craig you were the first one to respond to me on a personal level- noticing my Eagles shot glasses. And here I am 2,700 posts later lol.


Hah, and they say that Eagles fans are the worst! Shows what they all know!

I do agree, this is a great place to learn how to make good wine. Now if I could just take all I've learned and apply it one day...


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