# Common Terms



## lovethepirk

*Bucket* – You want non colored FOOD GRADE buckets.

*Carboy* – Glass or plastic vessel used in fermenting beverages.

*Primary Fermenter* - A bucket or a larger glass or stainless steel vessel.

*Must* – Freshly pressed fruit juice. First step in wine making. 

*Hydrometer* - An instrument used to measure the specific gravity (or relative density) of liquids.

*Specific Gravity(SG)* - In winemaking this is a number which tells the amount of sugar content in a must or wine. A common starting SG is around 1.080-1.100, but not always. An common ending 'dry' SG would be around .992-.995.

*Racking* - To transfer a liquid from one vessel to another. Normally done to remove the wine from the lees. Part of the clearing process.

*Campden Tablets* - Potassium Metabisulfite in tablet form which is used at the ratio of 1 tablet per gallon when adding to wine. Can be called '_NA-Meta_'.

*K-Meta* – Is _Potassium Metabisulfite_(see below) Normal usage is 1/8 tsp to 1/4 tsp for 6 gallon recipe in must 24 hours before adding yeast. Add 1/4 tsp for 6 gallons after fermentation for preservation. Use 3 tbls per gallon of water for sanitization of equipment ( AKA Campden tablets in solid form)

*NA-Meta* - Is Sodium Metabisulfite. Normal usage is 1/8 tsp to 1/4 tsp per 6 gallon recipe in must 24 hours before adding yeast. Add 1/4 tsp for 6 gallons after fermentation for preservation. Use 3 tbls per gallon of water for sanitization of equipment ( AKA Campden tablets in solid form)

* Potassium Metabisulfite* – Added 24 hour before adding yeast. This is to destroy any wild molds and bacteria that may have been on the fruit. Also added after fermentation to reduce oxidation (which will affect the colour and flavour of the wine). Used in stronger doses with water as an equipment sanitizer.

*Potassium Sorbate* - Sometimes called "_Wine Stabilizer_", is added to finished wines before bottling to reduce the possibility of re-fermentation.
*
Pectic Enzyme* – A liquid or powder that is added to crushed fruit to increase juice extraction. Also added to juice prior to fermentation to enhance the clarification process. The powdered form can be stored for a longer time before losing its strength. 
*
Yeast Nutrient* - Yeast Nutrient supplies nitrogen to the yeast in the singular form of a phosphate.

*Yeast Starter* – Method of rehydrating and activating yeast and accustoms it to the must prior to fermentation
http://wijnmaker.blogspot.com/2007/08/gist-starter-yeast-starter.html

*Yeast Energizer* - Supplies the wine yeast with much needed nitrogen, but from a wider range of nutrients than just phosphate. Energizer contains over a dozen yeast extractive proteins, along with B1 Vitamin, and di-ammonium phosphate. All are valuable sources of nitrogen. Good to use when must derivative is unlike grapes.
*
Acid Blend* - This is a blend of the primary acids found in fruit. Acid blend can contain any two or three of the primary acids (tartaric acid, citric acid and malic acid) in any quantity. Acid blend can be store bought or self made by the home winemaker.
*
F-Pak* - Flavor Pack. Usually a concentrated juice of the original fruit ingredients or similar. Can also be simple syrup, honey, or other flavorings added once fermentation is complete. Sorbate and K-meta should be added prior to any F-Pak to prevent secondary fermentation.
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14045&postcount=7

*Fining agent* – Organic or inorganic compound added at end of fermentation to clarify and to change colour, odour, flavour and stability.

*Benzoate* - yeast inhibitor(blueberrys have them naturally)

*Lees* - The spent yeast cells and fruit solids that accumulate on the bottom of winemaking vessels
*
Bentonite* – Clay additive used before fermentation and after. It provides nucleation sites for the yeast during primary fermentation. It also makes the wine clearer and more stable by removing the protein haze and undesirable particles from a finished wine in a very short period of time.

*Fining Agents* - Usually bentonite, gelatin or isinglas, which are natural agents that are added to wine to accelerate the settling or clearing process.

*Pomace* - The solid materials left over from the fruit in winemaking or juicing. Such as the pulp in orange juice or spent fruit in a fruit sack left over after fermentation.


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## lovethepirk

This is a nice site to see conversions since a lot of us live all over the world:
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/measures.asp


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## Luc

Small rectification please.

Pectic enzyme is also available in powdered form which can be stored for a longer time before losing its strength.

An acid blend can contain any two or three of the primary acids (tartaric acid, citric acid and malic acid) in any quantity.
Acid blend can be store bought or self made by the home winemaker.

Lees can also contain fruit solids.

Luc


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## cpfan

Some comments on this list.

Primary Fermenter can be a bucket or a larger glass or stainless steel vessel

Personally I don't think that the Bucket must be HDPE, but Food Grade is very important.

Bentonite mainly gets rid of protein haze (not certain about the description provided). It also provides nucleation sites for the yeast during primary fermentation.

Yeast energizers can vary a lot. The description given is probably accurate for one specific brand.

K-meta added at end of fermentation (and in the middle of fermentation) to prevent reduce oxidation (which will affect the colour and flavour of the wine).

Campden can also be Na-meta.

Steve


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## smurfe

A few other terms not seen:

Pomace, the solid materials left over from the fruit in winemaking or juicing. Such as the pulp in orange juice or spent fruit in a fruit sack left over after fermentation.

Racking, to transfer a liquid from one vessel to another. Normally done to remove the wine from the lees. Part of the clearing process.

I agree with Steve as well, you don't need a bucket stamped HDPE but do want a food grade product. You can use those gray Rubbermaid trash cans you see in commercial settings for fermenters. They are not stamped HDPE but are food grade and perfectly acceptable for a large fermenter. There was an article in either Winemaker or Brew Your Own magazine showing how to make one of these into a fermenter.


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## Wade E

Sulfite added in the middle? I have never seen that nor do I agree with that statement at all. There is no need to add sulfite to protect a wine from oxidation as its producing tons of C02 which will protect the wine and adding sulfites will only hinder a fermentation and possibly stop it from fermenting completely.


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## cpfan

Wade:

Fruit wine makers add sulphite before adding the yeast. Kit wine makers do not.

Kit wine makers add sulphite and sorbate as part of stabilization. Fruit wine makers probably should.

All wine makers MAY add sulphite prior to bottling to provide additional shelf life.

Now which of these do you disagree with? The middle one?

You're right I did not mean "middle of fermentation", I meant "middle of the process", ie stabilization. That's wat I get for replying at 4am.

Steve


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## lovethepirk

Added everything mentioned so far. Yell if something is not accurate or needs to be added. I think this is a good list for newbies 


--Added some more....is the SG definition and suggestions okay, or should they be modified a bit or taken out completely?



> *Specific Gravity(SG)* - In winemaking this is a number which tells the amount of sugar content in a must or wine. A common starting SG is around 1.080-1.010, but not always. An common ending 'dry' SG would be around .992-.995.


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## cpfan

I think you meant 1.080 to *1.100 *for starting sg.

Steve


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## lovethepirk

thanks...good catch. We wouldn't want out wine at 2.5% would we


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## Country Roads

I have been using pectic enzyme that I bought last year. Is it out of date? Just how long will it be ok?


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## arcticsid

Love, it seems like that was the sort of list that brought me so muchconfusion in the begining!!

Now I just throw in some juice, sugar, and yeast. (Now I use wine yeast)

When the cats finally stop looking at the airlock, it's time to rack it off.

Back in the early days, my cat once watched an ailock for 5 days straight! No sleep or food, I would look over and she would be laying down with one eye open the whole time.

Some old winemakers may call me silly or drunk, but I am only telling you what I seen. maybe cats know something about this. If they do, they better start chipping in, cause so far it is starting to cost me alot of money for their amusement.
Troy


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## Wade E

I have never gotten a staright answer on this as have many others not. I have been told that it should be kept refridgerated but dont have any clue of exp dates and have never seen a refridge after opening on any either. I have had some of this stuff un frdged over 1 year and never had a problem though. I do keep mine in the fridge with my yeast now though.


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## Monica

I just saw this post and found it interesting. Do you know if it was the big rubbermaid trash cans on wheels? I make hard cider and would really like to do it in larger quantities. I have 15 gallons going at a time usually, but its in 3 different 5 gal fermenting buckets. Thanks for your help!


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## ramdisk

New to wine making and I didn't find this term, what is MLF? I see it allot in posts.
Thanks


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## Tom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation


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## ramdisk

Thanks Tom


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## Tom

Your welcome. Typically its done on big reds. Smoothes out the wine.


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## Wade E

Or Chardonnays!


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## djrockinsteve

I searched this site and didn't find this, do we have or I think it would be a good idea to have a "Dictionary" of wine and beer terms? They could be 2 seperate pages. Just the basics and perhaps a link to more info whether it's wikipedia or Jack Keller's site.


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## LarryW

*sticky?*

Sorry for having to ask, but what does stick mean on the threads?


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## Tom

The subject stays (sticks) on top when you click on the topic on the main forum page.


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## FishNiX

> Campden Tablets - Potassium Metabisulfite in tablet form which is used at the ratio of 1 tablet per gallon when adding to wine. Can be called 'NA-Meta'.



Isn't Campden Sodium-mitabisulfate?


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## Tom

I think they are Potassium (k-meta)


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## Wade E

They can be both bjut usually its potassium. i have even seen sorbate in tablet form before.


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## FishNiX

just to assure you of my sanity..


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## Daisy

This is a very fascinating post and its great to describe about the general terms used.Its an appreciable post and its informative too.

Thanks.


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## Truebrew

*Another term: back sweeten*

I'm really just learning and have been making 1 & 2 gal. batches of a variety of wines. (13 so far) I'm learning a lot with each batch but none will be ready for some time. I've seen the term back sweeten in many posts and I suspect I know what that means but would like a more exact definition, please.

Thanks!


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## winemaker_3352

Truebrew said:


> I'm really just learning and have been making 1 & 2 gal. batches of a variety of wines. (13 so far) I'm learning a lot with each batch but none will be ready for some time. I've seen the term back sweeten in many posts and I suspect I know what that means but would like a more exact definition, please.
> 
> Thanks!




Backsweeten is the process of raising the SG, adding more sugar to a wine. Once a wine has fermented to dry less than 1.000 SG - there is essentially no sugars left. In order to get a sweeter finish to the wine - you add sugar. This is - of course - only done once the wine has completed fermentation and sorbate and k-meta have been added to prevent renewed fermentation.


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## djrockinsteve

"Sodium Bisulfite" provides SO2 just like potassium metabisulfite, however the sodium compound is less expensive. Sodium bisulfite is used for sterilizing wine making equip. Because it contains sodium, it is not "usually" used as a source of sulfer dioxide in the wine.


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## Truebrew

winemaker_3352 said:


> Backsweeten is the process of raising the SG, adding more sugar to a wine. Once a wine has fermented to dry less than 1.000 SG - there is essentially no sugars left. In order to get a sweeter finish to the wine - you add sugar. This is - of course - only done once the wine has completed fermentation and sorbate and k-meta have been added to prevent renewed fermentation.



Thank you.


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## michaelmarsh

*Great Info Thanks*

I would just like to say think you for all the info and posts on this blog, i live in Hong Kong and have just start making my own wine, Well trying to! i would not call my last batch wine!! i will keep reading and learning from you guys! I have learnt a lot about wine making but started with wine investment found that easier! but it definatly sparked my interest in wine making.thanks again.


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## Tom

Welcome to the "fold"


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## btom2004

I was just about to ask for a glossary of terms when I bumped this thread. Is the thread starter still updating?


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## djrockinsteve

I created this awhile ago with the basic and common terms. If there are any new terms we can add them but I believe this covers the vast majority. Glad to see it's getting used.


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## btom2004

djrockinsteve said:


> I created this awhile ago with the basic and common terms. If there are any new terms we can add them but I believe this covers the vast majority. Glad to see it's getting used.



Here's one.

What exactly is *slurry*?

A: While making wine, heavier particles will settle to the bottom of your primary fermenter. When you transfer or rack the wine from your primary fermenter to the secondary fermenter, you often leave this sediment behind and end up throwing it out. This “slurry” at the bottom of your primary is a veritable army of viable yeast, unused nutrients, and fruit flavors. Skeeter Pee essentially “recycles” this slurry by putting it to work in a new batch of wine.
-Lon


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## Kracker

degassing isnt there


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## BlueStimulator

Great post, I have lots to learn!!!!!!!!


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## Fedoradude

btom2004 said:


> I was just about to ask for a glossary of terms when I bumped this thread. Is the thread starter still updating?



Yes, I am.


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## sg1strgt

Can I make a suggestion for a list for newbies like myself? I see all these terms and chemicals being thrown around and added to various recipes at different times. Is there a general rule of thumb (for frozen fruit wine makers like myself) for:
What to add (chems)?
When to add?
Why add (what does it do)?
Benefits for short term/long term?
Additives for aging (in carboys and/or bottles)?


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## BlueStimulator

MF or MLF. Malaria bacteria cultures that are use in smoothing some whines


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## Ajmassa

BlueStimulator said:


> MF or MLF. Malaria bacteria cultures that are use in smoothing some whines




You've been adding MALARIA BACTERIA?? Well I know who I'm not going to exchange bottles with!
I'll stick with the malolactic bacteria. And I'll keep you in my prayers.


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## Johnd

sg1strgt said:


> Can I make a suggestion for a list for newbies like myself? I see all these terms and chemicals being thrown around and added to various recipes at different times. Is there a general rule of thumb (for frozen fruit wine makers like myself) for:
> What to add (chems)?
> When to add?
> Why add (what does it do)?
> Benefits for short term/long term?
> Additives for aging (in carboys and/or bottles)?



No disrespect intended, but books have been written on the very subject(s), and are far more comprehensive than the responses you will get here. The forum is wonderful, but isn't the only source of information. I'd suggest you start with the book below, one of my favorites, all of the information you are requesting, and more. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1550652362/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## sg1strgt

No offense taken. This is why I'm here in this forum. For feedback and information to help me better my skills. Thank you for the link for the book. I posted here because even though books will give me the information I might need, nothing can replace experience. And if you're looking for experience in winemaking books are OK this forum can't be beat


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## Johnd

sg1strgt said:


> No offense taken. This is why I'm here in this forum. For feedback and information to help me better my skills. Thank you for the link for the book. I posted here because even though books will give me the information I might need, nothing can replace experience. And if you're looking for experience in winemaking books are OK this forum can't be beat



Agreed. There are lots of folks here who could write dissertations on the topics you are interested in, the base knowledge, once obtained, is where you can get real world value from the folks who have "been there, done that". 

Additionally, there will be lots of experience with different proprietary products, for example, different brands of fermentation tannins, or finishing tannins, which you might not find in the books. As long as you come to the table understanding why we put tannins in a wine during primary fermentation, and the basic chemical processes that bind color and other components of the must into the finished wine, the proprietary stuff will be more easily understood. 

When I started making wine, and before I found this forum, I gobbled down a bunch of winemaking books and still reread them upon occasion, it's amazing how much I forget.....................


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## sour_grapes

sg1strgt said:


> No offense taken. This is why I'm here in this forum. For feedback and information to help me better my skills. Thank you for the link for the book. I posted here because even though books will give me the information I might need, nothing can replace experience. And if you're looking for experience in winemaking books are OK this forum can't be beat



And here is a resource that is decent, comprehensive, and free: http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wredw.pdf


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## sg1strgt

I totally agree with everything you say . Knowing what to add is not always as important as knowing why to add. And Sour_Grapes, thank you the link. I have a lot of good reading to do over this weekend since I have to wait for my DB to clear.


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## cmason1957

You should buy and read that Techniques book, just because the writer has a great deal of experience of what he speaks. Search the web and find his website, I think it costs about a dollar more, but it will be an autographed edition.


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## Ajmassa

sour_grapes said:


> And here is a resource that is decent, comprehensive, and free: http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wredw.pdf




This website has been my Bible lately and I find myself referring to it often. For each step of the process I've been giving whatever section I'm at a nice thorough read. But be careful because when I'm trying to take in too much at once I retain very little. 
Also that book that was suggested earlier I have heard recommended by countless people. It is sold in almost every single LHBS. (Local homebrew shop)


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## Boatboy24

sour_grapes said:


> And here is a resource that is decent, comprehensive, and free: http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wredw.pdf



I have a printed copy hanging in the winery from a binder clip. Use it often. Fantastic reference.


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## vacuumpumpman

Johnd said:


> No disrespect intended, but books have been written on the very subject(s), and are far more comprehensive than the responses you will get here. The forum is wonderful, but isn't the only source of information. I'd suggest you start with the book below, one of my favorites, all of the information you are requesting, and more.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/1550652362/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



There is a great amount of knowledge in this book from Daniel !

I highly recommend it to everyone


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## sg1strgt

That's awesome. I will look for it tonight. Thanks for the info


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## upstatecowboy

I have read on another post that a person was 3 weeks into EM. What That be?


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## sour_grapes

EM is a newish term used here to mean "extended maceration." It means letting the must sit on the skins for a long time. This could be wine from fresh grapes, but more likely here to mean leaving a kit with grapeskins on the skins for ~6 weeks or more.


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## Scooter68

"Definitive Book" One persons idea of the 'correct' way of doing something.

Anyone who has been active on this site for even a few months, knows that even the best books have a tendency to focus on a limited number of ways to get from "Fruit" to finished wine. Meanwhile a lot of new folks can become confused when they read so much widely varying information on different sites.
In the end there are certain processes in wine making that can be accomplished many ways but there are also some ways of doing some processes that are on the riskier end of the spectrum.
If I had to start over again, I'm not sure I would because the one thing I failed to grasp until several batches in....THE one most important 'skill' Patience. Time and time again we all see the newbies, like me, who want to get that wine finished and show it off to our friends and family. Unless some degree of Patience is exercise, most wind making efforts will result in wines that are _'drinkable'_ but not necessarily _'enjoyable.'
_
So My word or term for addition to this list is very simple to understand but SOOOO hard to practice for those of us starting out.

*Patience - The capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset. *_ *In wine making - the ability to recognize that the wine you start today will not be ready to 'enjoy' for at least a year, or longer.
*_
*Hooch - An alcoholic beverage (Commonly with a high ABV) with little to no resemblance to wine but ready to drink in a month or less
*
Sorry if this offends but after close to 3 years now of wine making this is something I have learned the hard way.


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## upstatecowboy

sour_grapes said:


> EM is a newish term used here to mean "extended maceration." It means letting the must sit on the skins for a long time. This could be wine from fresh grapes, but more likely here to mean leaving a kit with grapeskins on the skins for ~6 weeks or more.


Thanks for the information. I could not figure out what they were doing. Maybe someday I will get there.


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## wrongway

Thank You for the thread! I am a beginner and it has answered
many questions for me! There is a word that maybe should be added
to Scooter68's "Patience", "ex·u·ber·ance", The inability to have patience! :0)


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## Scooter68

I understand both of those words. My Exuberance was tempered and brought forth patience when I compared a wine at 5 months with the same wine at 15 months. 
The difference was remarkable. 
5 months = meh, drinkable it has potential
5 months = _Enjoyable! Primo! I'm ready to share this one!

Conclusion: _Drinking that wine at 15 Months - WOW! I did this? I done goooood! (Grammarians sorry but...)


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## wrongway




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## winepittsburgh

sg1strgt said:


> Can I make a suggestion for a list for newbies like myself? I see all these terms and chemicals being thrown around and added to various recipes at different times. Is there a general rule of thumb (for frozen fruit wine makers like myself) for:
> What to add (chems)?
> When to add?
> Why add (what does it do)?
> Benefits for short term/long term?
> Additives for aging (in carboys and/or bottles)?



I have a winemaking channel on youtube that might help ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCukfI_LTN8MqOLZq96ACbjA ). If there are any specifics that you would be interested in me covering, let me know in the comments section of a video.


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## Scooter68

sg1strgt - Frozen Fruit vs Fresh Fruit - really no difference other than the fact that frozen fruit MAY break down faster. The steps are the same other than the additional "Thawing" step. I would suggest a lot of reading on sites like this, maybe a book or two and then remember -wine making is as much an Art as a Science. 

There are many ways to make a great wine but there are some steps that cannot be ignored. Sanitization of equipment if the first that comes to mind. Many have asked the "Why" question with regards to additives - best answer is to read about what it does and then re-read those articles and book(s). 

Skipping common steps or additives is done at some risk, question is how much risk do you want take. Historically we don't have a perfect record of what happened to Guido, Franz or whoever when they tried some revolutionary new step centuries ago because deaths and illness due to food poisoning were common. So sticking to the tried and true for modern day wine makers is the best route until you have some experience with the processes. Shoot, we all make enough mistakes without trying 'new' methods to keep our forum buzzing. Wine that won't ferment, unusual smells, and the ever popular bottle bombs. (The latter though rare, will get your attention when you lose half a dozen bottles of wine.) My experience with bottle bombs dates back to my dad making root beer (1950s) and a KABOOM from the garage that took out pretty much the entire batch - and that to a 9 year old was a real tragedy!


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## CUZN_J

OK a little help here, I have made about 6 batches of wine, they are all pretty good tasting, except there is a little bite or bitterness, can anyone tell me how to get rid of it, I don't know if I am even describing this correct, it is just a little bitter tang or something, other than that I think it is great, I am not a wine lover, or have not been until now.


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## Ajmassa

CUZN_J said:


> OK a little help here, I have made about 6 batches of wine, they are all pretty good tasting, except there is a little bite or bitterness, can anyone tell me how to get rid of it, I don't know if I am even describing this correct, it is just a little bitter tang or something, other than that I think it is great, I am not a wine lover, or have not been until now.



Odd thread choice for this lol. Is it wine from grapes? Sounds like too much acid. Ph and TA tests would tell u a lot. 
You know what you could do easily before adding an antacid? Throw a bottle in the fridge or freezer for a week or so. It should drop out tartrates as sediment. Wine diamonds/ crystals. No chems needed. I’m pretty sure it would also lower the acid level some. After a week or 2 let it get back to room temp- pour a glass and compare to another to see if it helped. 
If u need to add acid you could do a small bench trial on one bottle. Using Tartaric acid. Many TA test kits ($10-$15) come with a bottle of ‘acid blend’ for adjusting. That would work too. And you could taste test that right away.


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## CUZN_J

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Odd thread choice for this lol. Is it wine from grapes? Sounds like too much acid. Ph and TA tests would tell u a lot.
> You know what you could do easily before adding an antacid? Throw a bottle in the fridge or freezer for a week or so. It should drop out tartrates as sediment. Wine diamonds/ crystals. No chems needed. I’m pretty sure it would also lower the acid level some. After a week or 2 let it get back to room temp- pour a glass and compare to another to see if it helped.
> If u need to add acid you could do a small bench trial on one bottle. Using Tartaric acid. Many TA test kits ($10-$15) come with a bottle of ‘acid blend’ for adjusting. That would work too. And you could taste test that right away.




First I saw [beginners wine forum ] so went to first tread, I was telling somebody the other day I didn't know how to relate the questions with the treads, they said just post it, all of us are here to learn and help, don't recall who it was, ? maybe dralarm, I knew someone would tip me as wrong tread, sorry.. Now back to the question, I am doing it the cheap way, can't afford those kits, and doing small 1 gal batches, using the frozen concentrates, making sure no additives are in it, mainly old orchard brands some welch's, always using distilled water, from wally world, I think I am overboard as far as sanitizer, I do some sanitizing 2 times, just to make sure, am trying the frige test now started it this morning, so will check it out in a few days. Like I said I am starting this venture, small and cheap, I don't expect top of the line quality, just want it drinkable, and it is like I said very good to me, but I am not any were near a average drinker, so I don't know what is really suppose to be like , but don't think it should have the bite, one person that says they drink alot of wine, told me it was really good, and not to change anything, I don't know??????


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## Ajmassa

Well “really good” is subjective, and if your the one drinking then better to make what u like. We talking red wines here correct? 
A bag of tartaric is only a couple bucks. U could try an addition on 1 glass to see. The cold stabilizing might help know if removing acid is the answer. Even try adding a touch of sugar to a glass. That may also do the trick. Or put it in the corner and forget about it for 6 months. That can really work wonders too. Regardless- troubleshooting something like that can be fun. And when u finally figure out a remedy? It’s a good feeling. Good luck.


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## CUZN_J

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Well “really good” is subjective, and if your the one drinking then better to make what u like. We talking red wines here correct?
> A bag of tartaric is only a couple bucks. U could try an addition on 1 glass to see. The cold stabilizing might help know if removing acid is the answer. Even try adding a touch of sugar to a glass. That may also do the trick. Or put it in the corner and forget about it for 6 months. That can really work wonders too. Regardless- troubleshooting something like that can be fun. And when u finally figure out a remedy? It’s a good feeling. Good luck.




ok, the more I think about how to describe this, if I had to compare it to something, I would say it is like a highly carbonated coke bite, that little burn like feeling, it is not a bad thing but I think it would be better if it weren't there. thanks I will try these suggestions, looks like that could take some time, 2 days here 3 days there and then months, maybe I can have something to drink in a year or so, if I am still alive. lol


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## Scooter68

That 'coke bite' sounds like your wine might be tad too acidic. Have you taken a pH reading?

Until you do that, it's going to be tough to help you out.

And of course what variety of wine are you making?


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## stickman

A little bitter tang could be excess co2, or possibly sulfite if you are drinking it soon after adding a dose.


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## CUZN_J

Scooter68 said:


> That 'coke bite' sounds like your wine might be tad too acidic. Have you taken a pH reading?
> 
> Until you do that, it's going to be tough to help you out.
> 
> And of course what variety of wine are you making?




I have not done a ph test, as I figured that store bought distilled water should not have a high ph STORE BOUGHT DISTILLED WATER- Wally World


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## CUZN_J

stickman said:


> A little bitter tang could be excess co2, or possibly sulfite if you are drinking it soon after adding a dose.




I have tried it at different times, seems to stay, test are from 1 week to as much as 1-1/2 months, still there , I have really tried not to do very much on the sulfites, because of things I have read about it, I also have been using the wine whip, and doing it til I don't get any foam and the once more for peace of mind. thanks


----------



## Scooter68

The water has very little to do with the pH of your wine. You should ALWAYS check the pH of the wine must before starting a fermentation and then after fermentation is concluded. Excess acidity can cause exactly the bite you are talking about. Too little acid and your wine can spoil, even if treated with Potassium Metabisulfate and Potassium Sorbate.

Monitoring and adjusting the pH prior to fermentation is one of the key steps. Grapes and other fruit vary in acidity and sweetness from year to year even from the same tree/vines. Even if you buy kit wines or juice buckets ready to go, ALWAYS check the SG and pH of the wine must before starting a fermentation. Mistakes happen even with kits and prepared juices. It's also important to know where you are starting for the purpose of knowing where you will likely end up in terms of ABV and acidity.


----------



## ToadHaul

Greetings everyone! My first newbie question:

If NA-Meta is Sodium Metabisulfite then how is Potassium Metabisulfite above that also called NA-Meta?

(This near the top of the list.)


----------



## cmason1957

ToadHaul said:


> Greetings everyone! My first newbie question:
> 
> If NA-Meta is Sodium Metabisulfite then how is Potassium Metabisulfite above that also called NA-Meta?
> 
> (This near the top of the list.)


That line appears to be a mistype, I think you mean the campden tablets line.

It should say something about them being either sodium or Potassium Metabisulphite (Na-Meta or K-Meta)

Finding Sodium metabisulphite is getting harder and harder, which is probably a good thing.


----------



## ToadHaul

Thank you cmason1957.

I did not want to quote both paragraphs in full, but:
----------------------
*Campden Tablets* - Potassium Metabisulfite in tablet form which is used at the ratio of 1 tablet per gallon when adding to wine. Can be called '_NA-Meta_'

...and...

*NA-Meta* - Is Sodium Metabisulfite. Normal usage is 1/8 tsp to 1/4 tsp per 6 gallon recipe in must 24 hours before adding yeast. Add 1/4 tsp for 6 gallons after fermentation for preservation. Use 3 tbls per gallon of water for sanitization of equipment ( AKA Campden tablets in solid form)
--------------------
So, are Campden tablets Potassium Metabisulfite or Sodium Metabisulfite?

And which one is designated as NA-meta?


----------



## Johnd

@ToadHaul , Potassium (periodic table symbol “K”) Metabisulfite and Sodium (periodic table symbol Na) Metabisulfite both exist in winemaking in powdered form, and both can be found in tablet form (Campden Tablets), see photo below. 

The Na form, whether in powdered or tablet format is said to give wine a funny taste, and isn’t used as a wine additive, it is perfectly fine as a sanitizer. 

The K form, whether powdered or tablet form, is used in wine to protect it from oxidation, microbial invaders, inhibiting wild yeast in must, etc.. it is also perfectly fine as a sanitizer. 

You can choose to keep both on hand if you like, but then you run the risk of ending up with Na Meta in your wine, my personal choice is to keep only K Meta on hand, in powdered form, for precise measurement and use in all of my wine additive / sanitation needs.


----------



## Carolyn P

Wonderful wine peeps can I ask a question? Can I use the lees from a wine for skeeter pee even if it ferments to below 1.000? Thanks so much!


----------



## cmason1957

Carolyn P said:


> Wonderful wine peeps can I ask a question? Can I use the lees from a wine for skeeter pee even if it ferments to below 1.000? Thanks so much!


You can. The yeast will probably still be fine. I make several batches of skeeter pee every year and even though the official instructions say to always use a slurry like that I never have I just make a nice starter of Ec1118 and pitch it. It Geneve just fine.


----------



## jgmillr1

Carolyn P said:


> Wonderful wine peeps can I ask a question? Can I use the lees from a wine for skeeter pee even if it ferments to below 1.000? Thanks so much!



No, you should use new yeast. Once the alcohol level reaches 9% or so the cell wall yeast membrane physically changes and that interferes with reproduction. See the post here.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/effect-of-alcohol-on-yeast.69317/


----------



## Rice_Guy

Carolyn P said:


> Can I use the lees from a wine for skeeter pee even if it ferments to below 1.000?!


* wine is a multi variable preservative system. At 11% alcohol and pH 3.5 it is stable against growth of most micro organismm. Equally important food poisoning organisms don’t survive so we don’t worry about getting sick. The damage which the multi variable preservative system produces is a combination, ie 13% alcohol is a bigger stress than 11% or 18% is a bigger stress yet. Most yeast do not survive above this level, but there are a few selections used to produce grain alcohol that will go above 20%. One stressor will change the effect of other stressors, , example high CO2 can drop the pH below 3 and the organism dies, , or temperature of 100F combined with alcohol can kill the yeast. “stuck fermentation” The system is complicated and hard and fast rules are hard to 100% predict. 
* All yeast which is sold has proven itself to be capable of surviving in the target environment. For beer 8% alcohol, for wine usually 14% (read the specification on the yeast type, several specify 16%) and for sparkling wine 18%. A specification may say there are several selections in the brand, , , and will always specify a low level of microbial contaminants. One risk is changing the percentage in the selection from what was in the new package. , , , , In the lab I usually was able to culture yeast, but not always.
* As a home wine maker I have learned that yeast spring back life when I back sweeten, so far no explosions, , but it scores poorly in contest. This usually does not happen if the wine is 9 or more months old. This can be stopped by adding stressors as low pH or pasteurization as 120F for 50 minutes. Sugar (osmotic pressure) can also stop growth, ie in back sweetening or creating a syrup or concentrated F pack.
* In the ideal environment we grow yeast in a steady state constantly diluting environment and don’t let waste products build up. In all home fermentation’s we see that a small number of yeast multiply (learn to use the set of conditions) reach a peak and then slow down. In normal food fermentations there is a sequence as vinegar is produced by acetobacter after the alcohol fermentation. , , , It really doesn’t take a lot of population to start a fermentation, mostly the proper nutrients and low build up of waste product, , ie a fresh must.
* yeast is cheap, I don’t bother to reuse it, factory wise it is a cost and reused to some extent, , , Contamination after several cycles is the concern.


----------



## Wolfenstein

Thanks for this post, helped me learn the basics as I'm getting into winemaking.


----------



## Sally Scheibner

arcticsid said:


> Love, it seems like that was the sort of list that brought me so muchconfusion in the begining!!
> 
> Now I just throw in some juice, sugar, and yeast. (Now I use wine yeast)
> 
> When the cats finally stop looking at the airlock, it's time to rack it off.
> 
> Back in the early days, my cat once watched an ailock for 5 days straight! No sleep or food, I would look over and she would be laying down with one eye open the whole time.
> 
> Some old winemakers may call me silly or drunk, but I am only telling you what I seen. maybe cats know something about this. If they do, they better start chipping in, cause so far it is starting to cost me alot of money for their amusement.
> Troy


----------



## Sally Scheibner

Still trying to figure this reply process out. Different every time?!! Love your cat’s reaction and fact there’s others out there starting out with the basics. My 5 gallon jug, oh, I meant carboy, has 7 cans of frozen grape juice with 4 lbs of sugar and wine yeast. My bubbler is doing its thang as I sit and watch, listen and in awe of the wonders of nature. Thanks


----------



## SeniorHobby

upstatecowboy said:


> I have read on another post that a person was 3 weeks into EM. What That be?


Not to throw a wrench into the terminology but I have done some reading which also uses the term Sur Lie Aging. As described they age the wine "on the lees". Basically meaning they rack the wine down to a fine sediment on the bottom and leave it there for anywhere from three months to up to one year. This also involves occasional stirring, as much as every week or so for three months. I have not done this yet as I am still starting out as well, but the benefit is said to be enhanced flavor and complex aromas, reduced astringency, increased roundness.


----------



## winemaker81

@SeniorHobby, Extended Maceration and Sur Lie are completely different.

EM is keeping the pomace, which for kits may be a grape skin pack, in contact with the wine post-fermentation for as long as several months. The purpose is to extract more from the pomace.

Sur Lie is aging on the fine lees, which is yeast residue, not grape solids. The effects are completely different.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> @SeniorHobby, Extended Maceration and Sur Lie are completely different.
> 
> EM is keeping the pomace, which for kits may be a grape skin pack, in contact with the wine post-fermentation for as long as several months. The purpose is to extract more from the pomace.
> 
> Sur Lie is aging on the fine lees, which is yeast residue, not grape solids. The effects are completely different.


Great, I learned something new today. Like I said I am a beginner yet. 


winemaker81 said:


> @SeniorHobby, Extended Maceration and Sur Lie are completely different.
> 
> EM is keeping the pomace, which for kits may be a grape skin pack, in contact with the wine post-fermentation for as long as several months. The purpose is to extract more from the pomace.
> 
> Sur Lie is aging on the fine lees, which is yeast residue, not grape solids. The effects are completely different.


----------



## oldwest

smurfe said:


> A few other terms not seen:
> 
> Pomace, the solid materials left over from the fruit in winemaking or juicing. Such as the pulp in orange juice or spent fruit in a fruit sack left over after fermentation.
> 
> Racking, to transfer a liquid from one vessel to another. Normally done to remove the wine from the lees. Part of the clearing process.
> 
> I agree with Steve as well, you don't need a bucket stamped HDPE but do want a food grade product. You can use those gray Rubbermaid trash cans you see in commercial settings for fermenters. They are not stamped HDPE but are food grade and perfectly acceptable for a large fermenter. There was an article in either Winemaker or Brew Your Own magazine showing how to make one of these into a fermenter.


I have bought 4 gallon buckets with lids from Dairy Queen. $1.75 .They are food grade and DQ gets them with the syrup /juice they add to their treats ! I cut a round hole in the top and inserted an airlock in. Then taped the edge of the lid with duct tape..


----------



## Scooter68

Step saving suggestion.  If those buckets are for fermenting batches - Don't bother using the lid and an airlock. Bucket lids are notorious for leaking and that often leads to people thinking a ferment has stopped or never started because the airlock never bubbled or showed any signs of gassing off. 
Better and easier plan is to tie a towel or a piece of tightly woven cloth (Like a piece of Muslin cloth or an old pillow case) over the top. 
Remember that it's a good idea to stir a ferment once a day so if you tape that lid on you are creating a lot of extra work with no real gain for your trouble. Oxygen - Oxidation is not going to happen while a ferment is ongoing and even for at least a couple of days afterwards. The CO2 gas coming out of the ferment provides a protective blanket over the wine. The cloth is just to keep bugs and pets out.


----------



## SeniorHobby

Scooter68 said:


> Step saving suggestion.  If those buckets are for fermenting batches - Don't bother using the lid and an airlock. Bucket lids are notorious for leaking and that often leads to people thinking a ferment has stopped or never started because the airlock never bubbled or showed any signs of gassing off.
> Better and easier plan is to tie a towel or a piece of tightly woven cloth (Like a piece of Muslin cloth or an old pillow case) over the top.
> Remember that it's a good idea to stir a ferment once a day so if you tape that lid on you are creating a lot of extra work with no real gain for your trouble. Oxygen - Oxidation is not going to happen while a ferment is ongoing and even for at least a couple of days afterwards. The CO2 gas coming out of the ferment provides a protective blanket over the wine. The cloth is just to keep bugs and pets out.


Thanks Scooter68, I am pitching my yeast today and was wondering if I should throw a towel over the top or leave the plastic lid with the airlock hole open as it ferments. I like the towel idea! No bugs or pests in Minnesota at this time of year so don't need to worry about that. So when my sp gr gets to about 1.00 and fermentation stops, then its time to get an airlock on it to keep from getting oxygen in?


----------



## Scooter68

I'd use a towel or other clean cloth tied over the top. 
Before racking to a carboy I normally look at 2-3 things:
1) SG at or below 1.010 +/- .005
2) Little to no significant foam on the surface
3) When stirred any foam generated dissipates pretty quickly. 
THEN I would rack to a glass carboy and airlock it. Transfer slowly and stop when about 7/8 full and let it sit for 5-10 mins to see if significant foam builds up. That's the time when folks most often get that foam fountain issue. If no significant foam, finish racking and airlock it.


----------



## Jovimaple

SeniorHobby said:


> No bugs or pests in Minnesota at this time of year so don't need to worry about that.


Beware the pesky box elder bugs! We are still finding one every couple of days in our house (Twin Cities area). I refuse to share my wine with them so I cover the must with a towel.


----------



## Old Corker

I usually just place the lid loosely on top with no airlock. I’ve had the foam reach the towel before. The towel is clean but not sanitized while the lid is. I just put something over the airlock hole to keep out invaders.


----------



## Scooter68

Old Corker's point is well taken. Sanitize anything that might come in contact with your wine. On occasion I've dipped my bucket covers, made of unbleached Muslin cloth, into into a bowl of sanitizing solution, wrung it out and then tied it down over the bucket - even wet. What I like about a cloth cover is that you can tell if the foam gets high enough to touch the cloth. You should not lose any of the wine unless it REALLY FOAMS up there big time. If that happens you are using too small a bucket - I always try to have a bucket at least 1 gallon larger than my starting volume. Not against using a bucket lid just that If not snapped down those tiny fruit flies/gnats can still get in. I even find them in the airlocks of my wine aging in carboys. Sometimes more than a dozen of them. If you look at the holes on the top of an airlock those are small holes so that's why I would not rely on just laying a lid on the top of my wine fermenting.


----------



## Arne

I usually use an old towel or tee shirt. Lay it across the top of the fermenter and place the lid over it not snapped down. Started doing it this way bout 10 years ago when my wife got a kitten. He was in to everything by setting the lid on top far as I know he never went for a swim in the wine. Arne.


----------



## SeniorHobby

Scooter68 said:


> I'd use a towel or other clean cloth tied over the top.
> Before racking to a carboy I normally look at 2-3 things:
> 1) SG at or below 1.010 +/- .005
> 2) Little to no significant foam on the surface
> 3) When stirred any foam generated dissipates pretty quickly.
> THEN I would rack to a glass carboy and airlock it. Transfer slowly and stop when about 7/8 full and let it sit for 5-10 mins to see if significant foam builds up. That's the time when folks most often get that foam fountain issue. If no significant foam, finish racking and airlock it.


Thanks Scooter68
So what do you do if there is significant foam?


----------



## SeniorHobby

Jovimaple said:


> Beware the pesky box elder bugs! We are still finding one every couple of days in our house (Twin Cities area). I refuse to share my wine with them so I cover the must with a towel.


Newer home, not too much of a problem so far! I was raised on a sand farm with many oak trees, now I am on a heavy clay soil farm, no oaks out here, but with soybean fields around here we do get the fun Asian Beatles aka lady bugs! I am about 2 hours West of the Twin Cities.


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> So what do you do if there is significant foam?


Use a larger primary. While that is totally unhelpful to a batch in process, it's the best advice. I prefer the must volume to be no more than 75% of the primary's volume, to allow for a vigorous ferment.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Use a larger primary. While that is totally unhelpful to a batch in process, it's the best advice. I prefer the must volume to be no more than 75% of the primary's volume, to allow for a vigorous ferment.


I guess I meant if it foams that means its not done with the ferment so you just wait at that point, correct?


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> I guess I meant if it foams that means its not done with the ferment so you just wait at that point, correct?


Not necessarily. Wine has the potential to foam any time there is CO2 in suspension, both during and after fermentation. IME, during fermentation foaming is a combination of yeast strain, how vigorous the fermentation is, the amount of solids, the amount of suspended CO2, temperature, and probably other factors.

Stirring and adding things (e.g., nutrient) to an active ferment can produce foaming as it causes the CO2 to be released. Paul (@sour_grapes) mentioned the proper term in a recent post, although I can't think of it at this moment, but essentially the powder gives the CO2 something to cling to and it comes out of suspension, producing potentially heavy foaming.

This will also happen with a post-ferment wine that hasn't been degassed.

If you use a large enough primary, the issue is eliminated. I ferment 23 liter kits in 7.9 gallon (29.9 liter) buckets, which is (IMO) the bare minimum size. I was going to purchase 10 or 12 gallon Brutes, but my local home supply store didn't have any small ones last time I looked. I ferment grapes (up to 180 lbs) and recent triple batches of kits in 32 gallon Brutes, which is overkill, but it eliminates overflow problem.

Always add things to a wine carefully, e.g., when adding nutrient, sprinkle a bit gently over the surface to see what happens. If it foams a lot, add in small amounts until done.


----------



## sour_grapes

winemaker81 said:


> Stirring and adding things (e.g., nutrient) to an active ferment can produce foaming as it causes the CO2 to be released. Paul (@sour_grapes) mentioned the proper term in a recent post, although I can't think of it at this moment, but essentially the powder gives the CO2 something to cling to and it comes out of suspension, producing potentially heavy foaming.



The term is "nucleation sites."


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Not necessarily. Wine has the potential to foam any time there is CO2 in suspension, both during and after fermentation. IME, during fermentation foaming is a combination of yeast strain, how vigorous the fermentation is, the amount of solids, the amount of suspended CO2, temperature, and probably other factors.
> 
> Stirring and adding things (e.g., nutrient) to an active ferment can produce foaming as it causes the CO2 to be released. Paul (@sour_grapes) mentioned the proper term in a recent post, although I can't think of it at this moment, but essentially the powder gives the CO2 something to cling to and it comes out of suspension, producing potentially heavy foaming.
> 
> This will also happen with a post-ferment wine that hasn't been degassed.
> 
> If you use a large enough primary, the issue is eliminated. I ferment 23 liter kits in 7.9 gallon (29.9 liter) buckets, which is (IMO) the bare minimum size. I was going to purchase 10 or 12 gallon Brutes, but my local home supply store didn't have any small ones last time I looked. I ferment grapes (up to 180 lbs) and recent triple batches of kits in 32 gallon Brutes, which is overkill, but it eliminates overflow problem.
> 
> Always add things to a wine carefully, e.g., when adding nutrient, sprinkle a bit gently over the surface to see what happens. If it foams a lot, add in small amounts until done.


Thanks for the help, Still pretty new at this, haven't done a whole lot of nutrient addition after initial testing. I am just trying to get a fermentation complete without major mistakes! This whole degassing thing is interesting to me as a beginner. Can you completely Degas a wine through fermentation and get a somewhat successful wine without the use of a degassing machine?
On the subject of fermentation, is is a normal thing to stir the wine each day during fermentation?
Another subject, I have put my fruit in a cloth bag to add to the primary during fermentation. Is it common to leave the fruit in suspension then strain later? Still reading and learning!


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> Can you completely Degas a wine through fermentation and get a somewhat successful wine without the use of a degassing machine?


Degassing was (AFAIK) introduced by kit vendors to clear the wine faster to enable 4 to 8 week bottling timeframes. Degassing is not necessary, as the wine will degas with time.

OTOH, I practice degassing to clear the wine faster, since CO2 holds particles in suspension. After fermentation is 100% complete, I use a drill-mounted stirring rod. The typical kit instructions are to stir for 30 seconds, then change directions 5 times, for a total of 3 minutes of stirring. You are NOT going to completely degas the wine doing this -- it jump starts the process to it completes quicker.

I stir for 20-30 seconds in each direction, changing direction 3 to 5 times. Since I do not bottle on kit schedule, my experience is that even a single stirring of 1 total minute is sufficient to jump start the process. With the CO2 mostly gone, the gross lees drops faster and can be removed sooner.

You can use a spoon or paddle to stir, but once you use a drill-mounted stirring rod, you won't want to use anything else. It is the best tool for mixing kits (or any must) and degasses the quickest.



SeniorHobby said:


> On the subject of fermentation, is is a normal thing to stir the wine each day during fermentation?


Must should be stirred at least once daily during active fermentation. If you have fruit solids, the cap needs to be punched down at least once per day to keep it moist. If the must is just juice, stirring is still good. I try to stir morning and night.



SeniorHobby said:


> I have put my fruit in a cloth bag to add to the primary during fermentation. Is it common to leave the fruit in suspension then strain later?


The fermentation process extracts constituents from the fruit solids. Especially with red grapes, long term exposure (full duration of the ferment) enables more extraction. For most wines, I'd leave the fruit in until the SG hits 1.000.


----------



## Old Corker

winemaker81 said:


> I was going to purchase 10 or 12 gallon Brutes, but my local home supply store didn't have any small ones last time I looked.


When I was looking for a 20 gallon Brute to use for double kit batches I search local restaurant supply stores and found one that was nearly the same price as the big box store. It also has the advantage of being white which I like. I found it in their products menu under waste management.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Degassing was (AFAIK) introduced by kit vendors to clear the wine faster to enable 4 to 8 week bottling timeframes. Degassing is not necessary, as the wine will degas with time.
> 
> OTOH, I practice degassing to clear the wine faster, since CO2 holds particles in suspension. After fermentation is 100% complete, I use a drill-mounted stirring rod. The typical kit instructions are to stir for 30 seconds, then change directions 5 times, for a total of 3 minutes of stirring. You are NOT going to completely degas the wine doing this -- it jump starts the process to it completes quicker.
> 
> I stir for 20-30 seconds in each direction, changing direction 3 to 5 times. Since I do not bottle on kit schedule, my experience is that even a single stirring of 1 total minute is sufficient to jump start the process. With the CO2 mostly gone, the gross lees drops faster and can be removed sooner.
> 
> You can use a spoon or paddle to stir, but once you use a drill-mounted stirring rod, you won't want to use anything else. It is the best tool for mixing kits (or any must) and degasses the quickest.
> 
> 
> Must should be stirred at least once daily during active fermentation. If you have fruit solids, the cap needs to be punched down at least once per day to keep it moist. If the must is just juice, stirring is still good. I try to stir morning and night.
> 
> 
> The fermentation process extracts constituents from the fruit solids. Especially with red grapes, long term exposure (full duration of the ferment) enables more extraction. For most wines, I'd leave the fruit in until the SG hits 1.000.


Thanks Old Corker for the feedback! So you Degas starting right after the fermentation is complete? On average how many times to you do this and how often, every few days? 
Regarding the fruit in the primary; do you put your fruit in a bag, or leave loose in the primary?


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> So you Degas starting right after the fermentation is complete? On average how many times to you do this and how often, every few days?
> Regarding the fruit in the primary; do you put your fruit in a bag, or leave loose in the primary?


Degassing is performed once. You are NOT removing all the CO2 -- just kick starting the process. Stirring will expel a lot of CO2, but the wine will continue to degas, possibly for weeks.

Fruit in a bag is easier to deal with. If the fruit is not tightly packed, you'll get the same extraction as loose. During fermentation there is a lot of movement due to the CO2, so the fruit is being exposed


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Degassing is performed once. You are NOT removing all the CO2 -- just kick starting the process. Stirring will expel a lot of CO2, but the wine will continue to degas, possibly for weeks.
> 
> Fruit in a bag is easier to deal with. If the fruit is not tightly packed, you'll get the same extraction as loose. During fermentation there is a lot of movement due to the CO2, so the fruit is being exposed


Thanks again, so how many days after fermentation is complete that you do the degasing?
Can I run a wine in the works by you?


----------



## Old Corker

SeniorHobby said:


> So you Degas starting right after the fermentation is complete?


Since I bought an All-In-One pump I don’t do the stirring to degas method. The vacuum pump degasses while it is transferring. I use to degas when the fermentation is done but don’t anymore for two reasons. First because I like to leave a little CO2 to protect the wine during early stages of clearing. Second, as I’ve learned recently, is what I think of as done fermenting may not be completely done. I usually do a final degassing after the wine is cleared and bulk aging. After racking I just remove the transfer hose, put my thumb over the the tube and run the pump for a minute or so to see if I can pull any more gas out. No bubbles/no gas in my mind.
I left the skins loose in the must once. Never again.


----------



## SeniorHobby

Old Corker said:


> Since I bought an All-In-One pump I don’t do the stirring to degas method. The vacuum pump degasses while it is transferring. I use to degas when the fermentation is done but don’t anymore for two reasons. First because I like to leave a little CO2 to protect the wine during early stages of clearing. Second, as I’ve learned recently, is what I think of as done fermenting may not be completely done. I usually do a final degassing after the wine is cleared and bulk aging. After racking I just remove the transfer hose, put my thumb over the the tube and run the pump for a minute or so to see if I can pull any more gas out. No bubbles/no gas in my mind.
> I left the skins loose in the must once. Never again.


Can I ask about the cost of the all in one pump? I do not have grapes on my property, beginner in the winemaking experience. Gonna try a few other fruits and take it from there. I am debating on planting some grape vines. I have access to some northern grapes (We're in the frozen Minnesota here) from a brother-in-law. Better get to it as I'm told that you have to wait a few years to establish the grape vines before using the grapes. Is there an opinion on if it is beneficial to plant grapes near evergreen trees? In the meantime I had access to extra grapes from two separate people this past fall, in the freezer at present. I am getting my feet wet by trying some wild grape wine making in the meantime. I am on day 9 of a batch. Started with sg of 1.09, now am at 1.036. I am still going down but it is slowing up and might be in for a stuck fermentation. Any advice at this point for me? Fermentation problems that I might be aware of, I might have been high on the sugar up front, added 8 lbs of sugar, started with 16 lbs of wild grapes. Original pH was 2,95, after adding sugar was 3.29. At this time it is at 3.49, I know I am getting close to being too high on this end. Must is sitting in a primary on my in-floor heated home, temp is at 72, again might be a little high for the ferment. 
Merry Christmas by the way!!


----------



## Old Corker

@SeniorHobby I’m going to defer to the real experts on here to give you the advice you seek. While I like to comment on things that I know or have learned I am not an expert. I’ve only been doing this for about 4 years and only do kits (over 50 now). I am grateful to and humbled by the many generous experts here. I post if I think I have something helpful to say and sometimes the value of my comments is that they have a beginners perspective.

As for the All In One wine pump, Steve, the proprietor is a frequent poster on this site. His website in allinonewinepump.com


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks again, so how many days after fermentation is complete that you do the degasing?
> Can I run a wine in the works by you?


I typically rack before fermentation is complete -- juice & kits when the SG is below 1.010, and press reds below 1.000. From there I watch the sediment -- it will build up, then compact a bit. I rack after it compacts, then degas. The timeframe varies, typically 7-14 days.

You can run anything past me, I'll answer is I can.


----------



## SeniorHobby

Old Corker said:


> @SeniorHobby I’m going to defer to the real experts on here to give you the advice you seek. While I like to comment on things that I know or have learned I am not an expert. I’ve only been doing this for about 4 years and only do kits (over 50 now). I am grateful to and humbled by the many generous experts here. I post if I think I have something helpful to say and sometimes the value of my comments is that they have a beginners perspective.
> 
> As for the All In One wine pump, Steve, the proprietor is a frequent poster on this site. His website in allinonewinepump.com


I appreciate your honesty. There is so much to learn that sometimes I feel like I don't want to ask questions because of the volume of information that I don't know yet. Reading books helps, but as I am not the youngest person, retaining it is a challenge sometimes. I reread parts of books often. Blogs help to! I can refer back to them, especially if they have a problem that I've encountered!


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> I typically rack before fermentation is complete -- juice & kits when the SG is below 1.010, and press reds below 1.000. From there I watch the sediment -- it will build up, then compact a bit. I rack after it compacts, then degas. The timeframe varies, typically 7-14 days.
> 
> You can run anything past me, I'll answer is I can.


Thanks for the reply! What do you think about my slowing fermentation? It is still fermenting by not very fast. If you read some of my above statements, they give the details of where I started and where I am now. I don't think it will get to 1.01 at the rate its going. I have made mistakes, just wondering if I can recover from them?


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> There is so much to learn that sometimes I feel like I don't want to ask questions because of the volume of information that I don't know yet.


Don't be afraid to ask questions. 

Wine is very forgiving IF you use good hygiene. For most things, time and patience are your friend.



SeniorHobby said:


> Thanks for the reply! What do you think about my slowing fermentation? It is still fermenting by not very fast. If you read some of my above statements, they give the details of where I started and where I am now. I don't think it will get to 1.01 at the rate its going. I have made mistakes, just wondering if I can recover from them?


I re-read your comments in this thread and didn't spot any serious mistakes. Fermentation often slows down at the end -- while some run a steady pace to completion, others get to the finish line and creep across. If the wine is under airlock, it's fine if it takes weeks to complete.

I've had wines never ferment below 1.002. It can happen although I cannot explain why. Relax and let the yeast do it's thing as long as it's going to.

Do you talk to your wines? I do, very often. It's been very helpful, as my family believes me insane and leaves me alone.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Don't be afraid to ask questions.
> 
> Wine is very forgiving IF you use good hygiene. For most things, time and patience are your friend.
> 
> 
> I re-read your comments in this thread and didn't spot any serious mistakes. Fermentation often slows down at the end -- while some run a steady pace to completion, others get to the finish line and creep across. If the wine is under airlock, it's fine if it takes weeks to complete.
> 
> I've had wines never ferment below 1.002. It can happen although I cannot explain why. Relax and let the yeast do it's thing as long as it's going to.
> 
> Do you talk to your wines? I do, very often. It's been very helpful, as my family believes me insane and leaves me alone.


Whew! Thanks for the encouragement! Regarding your commnent on the hygiene, I felt that I was doing things correctly in that regard, but I am reading another book which contradicts what a previous book said. I've used the one step for the cleaning process, then sulfite for the sanitation. I was always under the understanding that you do not rinse after the sanitation process. My current book says to rinse thoroughly with water. Uh Oh! Also my wine is in a large 6 gallon wine making bucket. I have been checking it daily and also giving it a stir to get the yeast going again. I should move it to an airlock container the way you are saying. 
I have not talked to my wines yet, but will take it under advisement. I do lots of flowers during the summer and I do talk to them, but mostly its "you son of a gun are driving me crazy" HaHa


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> My current book says to rinse thoroughly with water.


Throw out the book. For winemaking, do not rinse after dousing with K-meta, just shake off the excess. The water is likely to contain organisms, so it's counter-productive.

I've seen such advice from beer makers, where sulfite is NOT added. Many on this forum make both wine and beer, and understand the differences. The lessons of one often do not apply to the other.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Throw out the book. For winemaking, do not rinse after dousing with K-meta, just shake off the excess. The water is likely to contain organisms, so it's counter-productive.
> 
> I've seen such advice from beer makers, where sulfite is NOT added. Many on this forum make both wine and beer, and understand the differences. The lessons of one often do not apply to the other.


I was thinking the same thing as we live out in the country with a well. I use filtered water when making wine as I believe it might clean up the water a bit. Thanks for the help again! Living in the cold north! I have wanted to upload photo's and I get the message that the file is too large. I'm told that there is a button to decrease the size of the photo, but haven't found it yet. Any ideas?


----------



## winemaker81

For manipulating images, there are numerous choices. I use paint.NET to manipulate images -- it's a free download. The application is full featured, although I use less than 5% of the functionality, to trim images, resize them, add layers, etc.

If you just want to reduce image file size, try TinyPNG -- drag images onto the page and it will reduce size, and you can download the downsized image. The site is free for occasional use (20 images/day, max 5 MB file size), but I pay $25 USD for an annual pro license as I use the service often.

EDIT: Forgot to add the URL









TinyPNG – Compress WebP, PNG and JPEG images intelligently


Make your website faster and save bandwidth. TinyPNG optimizes your WebP, PNG and JPEG images by 50-80% while preserving full transparency!




tinypng.com


----------



## SeniorHobby

SeniorHobby said:


> I was thinking the same thing as we live out in the country with a well. I use filtered water when making wine as I believe it might clean up the water a bit. Thanks for the help again! Living in the cold north! I have wanted to upload photo's and I get the message that the file is too large. I'm told that there is a button to decrease the size of the photo, but haven't found it yet. Any ideas?


----------



## SeniorHobby

Working on a. download, they are sending a link? Weird. I am sanitizing my carboy to put the wine in from the bucket. Do you rinse your carboy with sulfite for 10 minutes?


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> Do you rinse your carboy with sulfite for 10 minutes?


From what I've read, K-meta water does not sanitize, it's the SO2 vapor. I usually rinse everything with K-meta and then by the time I've completed all preparations, the equipment has set for 5 to 15 minutes, so I proceed.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> From what I've read, K-meta water does not sanitize, it's the SO2 vapor. I usually rinse everything with K-meta and then by the time I've completed all preparations, the equipment has set for 5 to 15 minutes, so I proceed.


From Techniques in Home Wine Making it says Potassium & sodium metabisulfite are the most widely used & most effective sanitizing agents for winemaking applications. I can't shake a glass carboy for 10 minutes, I am going to rinse, walk away, come back rinse again. I think this should work too.


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> From Techniques in Home Wine Making it says Potassium & sodium metabisulfite are the most widely used & most effective sanitizing agents for winemaking applications. I can't shake a glass carboy for 10 minutes, I am going to rinse, walk away, come back rinse again. I think this should work too.


Common yes, although I have no clue if it's the most effective.

No need to shake the carboy. Add K-meta water, swirl it around, drain the carboy, then let it set for 10 minute. The K-meta evaporates, producing gaseous SO2.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Common yes, although I have no clue if it's the most effective.
> 
> No need to shake the carboy. Add K-meta water, swirl it around, drain the carboy, then let it set for 10 minute. The K-meta evaporates, producing gaseous SO2.


Thanks, was a little worried that I might not have a clean process.


----------



## SeniorHobby

Hello again,
Update on my wild grape wine. I started this batch on 12-19-21, sg 1.09. My sg readings by day were 20th 1.08, 21st 1.07, 22nd 1.058 , 23rd 1.05, 24th 1.05, 25th 1.044, 26th 1.04, 27th 1.036.


----------



## SeniorHobby

Oops, new computer, not used to keyboard. To continue, at this point I was a little worried about a stuck fermentation. To this point I had the must in a bucket fermentator with a cloth over the top. I decided to put it under an airlock with some advice from my wine making friends, did this, got busy with the holidays. I noticed that I had significant bubbling taking place. Today I measured my sg and I believe that I am done with the fermentation. I have three separate containers as I didn't have enough for the sizes of carboys that I have. So my readings are, .998, .994, & 1.02. I noticed a significant amount of gross lees in the bottom of the carboys. I tasted the wine & it has a bitter taste followed by the sweet taste. I imagine that might be the SO2? Upon moving the carboys to get my readings I did notice a lot of gas bubbling up. My questions at this time is, do I rack? Do you rack a couple of times before you Degas?
Thanks for the help, I am excited that I didn't have a stuck fermentation. I wanted to get through at least one batch before I run into too many issues.


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> I noticed a significant amount of gross lees in the bottom of the carboys. I tasted the wine & it has a bitter taste followed by the sweet taste. I imagine that might be the SO2?


Probably CO2. At this stage wine is going through continuous chemical changes, so don't expect it to taste good.

If you have a heavy build up of gross lees, it's time to rack. Then degas. Some sediment will be held in suspension by the excess CO2, so the wine probably won't clear fully until it's degassed (manually or naturally).


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> Probably CO2. At this stage wine is going through continuous chemical changes, so don't expect it to taste good.
> 
> If you have a heavy build up of gross lees, it's time to rack. Then degas. Some sediment will be held in suspension by the excess CO2, so the wine probably won't clear fully until it's degassed (manually or naturally).


Ok, I will do the racking. I might wait a day as the lees got stirred up a bit today. Old Corker mentioned in a post that he likes to leave a little CO2 on the wine to protect it while it's clearing. If I wait to do the degassing, would it be a good time to do the cold stabilization?


----------



## SeniorHobby

SeniorHobby said:


> Ok, I will do the racking. I might wait a day as the lees got stirred up a bit today. Old Corker mentioned in a post that he likes to leave a little CO2 on the wine to protect it while it's clearing. If I wait to do the degassing, would it be a good time to do the cold stabilization?


I've been doing some reading on the site today and found Chuck D's discussion of his wild grape wine. It seems like I might be trying to achieve a taste that I might not get as the grapes are better blended with other fruits to make a good tasting wine. Two thoughts here, has anyone fermented two different fruits together? Or do you just plan on the blending later? Also, what about MLF, is this something that might improve my wine at this point. I do not have any culture at home to do this. I believe that I have read you can buy either a dry version or a hydrated one?


----------



## winemaker81

SeniorHobby said:


> If I wait to do the degassing, would it be a good time to do the cold stabilization?


I would do the cold stabilization after degassing, as any sediment in suspension is more likely to drop with the tartrate crystals. Clearing is a side benefit of cold stabilization.

You can ferment ANYTHING together, and/or you can blend post-fermentation.

MLF will help if some of the excess acid is malic. MLF converts malic to lactic, but if there is no malic present, there's nothing to convert.


----------



## SeniorHobby

winemaker81 said:


> I would do the cold stabilization after degassing, as any sediment in suspension is more likely to drop with the tartrate crystals. Clearing is a side benefit of cold stabilization.
> 
> You can ferment ANYTHING together, and/or you can blend post-fermentation.
> 
> MLF will help if some of the excess acid is malic. MLF converts malic to lactic, but if there is no malic present, there's nothing to convert.


Thanks winemaker81! I will do the degassing then cold stabilization.


----------



## Glenbudde

Hi guys! thanks for the useful information


----------



## SeniorHobby

Glenbudde said:


> Hi guys! thanks for the useful information


Your welcome Glenbudde.


----------



## Dan M

This is a super informative thread. I do read books and articles on winemaking, and that is a great starting point. But much like an engineering student with limited work experience, it's tough to apply what you've learned until you actually work in the field (or make some wine). As I gain experience and veer away from straight-up kit making, I like to use this forum to ask questions that give me general, rule-of-thumb answers (hoping other newbies learn too). This allows me to plow ahead with some confidence, benefitting from the experience of others. It's also nice to get more than one viewpoint, as many books provide you just one viewpoint. So much for the fluff...

I was browsing at my local Wine Supply Shop yesterday and I noticed that L.D. Carlson makes several yeast additives, specifically Yeast Starter, Yeast Energizer and Yeast Nutrient (all side-by-side on the shelf). I've seen some of these used in various recipes but have never needed them before. So, my question is, under what circumstances might I need/use each of these items? Thank you, in advance, for sharing your knowledge and experience.


----------



## winemaker81

Dan M said:


> Yeast Starter, Yeast Energizer and Yeast Nutrient


Yeast starter is used to get a yeast colony growing, and it's generally a good idea to use it.

Nutrient ensures the yeast has everything it needs to prosper. I always use nutrient, as low nutrient can stress the yeast and produce H2S, which is bad. Energizer is used to boost yeast, and in restarting stuck fermentations.


----------



## Dan M

The real driver behind this question is that I've made lots of kits where I pitched dry yeast, but the other day I made my first FWK starter bottle. I'm now thinking I should make this a standard practice (even with WE kits). I don't know exactly what's in FWK "Packet B" but I'm guessing nutrient and energizer.


----------



## winemaker81

Dan M said:


> The real driver behind this question is that I've made lots of kits where I pitched dry yeast, but the other day I made my first FWK starter bottle. I'm now thinking I should make this a standard practice (even with WE kits). I don't know exactly what's in FWK "Packet B" but I'm guessing nutrient and energizer.


I've tried different pitching methods, but since my first FWK last August, an overnight starter is now my SOP.


----------



## Dan M

winemaker81 said:


> I've tried different pitching methods, but since my first FWK last August, an overnight starter is now my SOP.


Aha! I see from your website that you're using yeast nutrient and sugar in the overnight starter. Is the sugar an appetizer before the meal? I'll give this a try if it's been working well for you.


----------



## Rocky

Dan M said:


> Aha! I see from your website that you're using yeast nutrient and sugar in the overnight starter. Is the sugar an appetizer before the meal? I'll give this a try if it's been working well for you.


The FWK kits come with a packet to be used in starting the yeast. The packet contains yeast nutrient (diammonium phosphate or DAP) and extra fine sugar. The instructions say to make up the yeast mixture 18 to 30 hours before pitching.


----------



## Dan M

Rocky said:


> The FWK kits come with a packet to be used in starting the yeast. The packet contains yeast nutrient (diammonium phosphate or DAP) and extra fine sugar. The instructions say to make up the yeast mixture 18 to 30 hours before pitching.


Double aha! Thanks Rocky, this is good info. There is also a "Packet C" which is the 2nd dose of yeast nutrient, per the instructions.


----------



## winemaker81

Dan M said:


> Aha! I see from your website that you're using yeast nutrient and sugar in the overnight starter. Is the sugar an appetizer before the meal? I'll give this a try if it's been working well for you.


Sugar is essentially an appetizer.

I started a thread titled Rapid Ferment in Kit Winemaking, as the very rapid ferment was outside my experience and initially freaked me. The conversation may be useful to read through.

At this time, I'm ok with the rapid ferment, and am on board with Extended Maceration of fruit pulp, to a point.


----------



## Dan M

winemaker81 said:


> I started a thread titled Rapid Ferment in Kit Winemaking,


Most excellent! I read through this thread and it was super helpful. I'm now kinda scared to add "Packet C", but it should be fun! My bucket looks like I put some Pop Rocks in there, but it smells really good. I'm just following the kit directions, as my sophistication level is low, but this is an exciting learning experience for me. Since I need to go into the office for a couple days, I'll be leaving my wife home with the Ferm Monster. Can't wait to get that phone call...

Going back to my original question... I see how to use commercial Yeast Nutrient now. It seems like using the overnight starter method may mean that I never need the commercial Yeast Starter. And if stuck fermentation is not a problem, under what circumstances would I use the commercial Yeast Energizer? Still a little fuzzy here. Is this more appropriate for citrus fruit wines? Should I stop beating this topic to death? Thanks.


----------



## winemaker81

Dan M said:


> Most excellent! I read through this thread and it was super helpful. I'm now kinda scared to add "Packet C", but it should be fun!


The only danger with Packet C is if your fermenter is small. If you're using the typical 7.9 gallon fermenter for a 23 liter batch, you're fine. I suggest sprinkling it gently, instead of just dumping it in.

I have 4 posts in progress, detailing various facets of making the FWK. You may find the details useful.





Wines … in Detail – Bryan's Wine & Beer Making Site







wine.bkfazekas.com







Rocky said:


> The FWK kits come with a packet to be used in starting the yeast. The packet contains yeast nutrient (diammonium phosphate or DAP) and extra fine sugar. The instructions say to make up the yeast mixture 18 to 30 hours before pitching.


A lot of folks have success with GoFerm, but using an overnight starter may make it unnecessary. That is an opinion based upon my limited experience using an overnight starter, not a fact.

I have found that 12-14 hours is sufficient for the starter, starting at 6PM and inoculating at 7AM. I used room temperature (cellar temp 63-66 F) water and kept the starters on the counter with the fermenter. Although I have no proof, I suspect that keeping the starter at the same temperature as the must helps, as it eliminates temperature shock.

BITD, I used yeast energizer with most batches, but haven't used it in years. Given the success of the FWK, I'm not seeing a need for it. However, I plan to start a couple of non-kit batches in the near future -- we'll see if the overnight starter works the same.


----------



## mainshipfred

I've not made a FWK and probably never will since I save all my money for grapes. I have to say though from what I've been reading they appear to be a really quality product.


----------



## Dan M

winemaker81 said:


> The only danger with Packet C is if your fermenter is small. If you're using the typical 7.9 gallon fermenter for a 23 liter batch, you're fine. I suggest sprinkling it gently, instead of just dumping it in.


I am using a 7.9 gallon bucket, but there is an awful lot of activity; foam, bubbles and oak chips everywhere. I have just 1 skin pack which has swelled up quite a bit. If I had 2 in there, I think it might overflow. I'll probably add 1/2 of the nutrient packet in the morning and the rest when I get home in the evening. Hopefully this dosing will keep things under control.


----------



## winemaker81

Dan M said:


> I'll probably add 1/2 of the nutrient packet in the morning and the rest when I get home in the evening. Hopefully this dosing will keep things under control.


The problem with Pack C is not that it makes the ferment more vigorous -- when adding it, the wine foams up., but will subside.


----------



## Dan M

winemaker81 said:


> The problem with Pack C is not that it makes the ferment more vigorous -- when adding it, the wine foams up., but will subside.


Good call, Bryan. I added the whole pack this morning and things are definitely calmer tonight. After 2.5 days, SG went from 1.098 to 1.028. Maybe another day before I close the bucket. I have to admit, I was kinda freaking out! All good now...


----------



## cosmyccowboy

lovethepirk said:


> *Bucket* – You want non colored FOOD GRADE buckets.
> 
> *Carboy* – Glass or plastic vessel used in fermenting beverages.
> 
> *Primary Fermenter* - A bucket or a larger glass or stainless steel vessel.
> 
> *Must* – Freshly pressed fruit juice. First step in wine making.
> 
> *Hydrometer* - An instrument used to measure the specific gravity (or relative density) of liquids.
> 
> *Specific Gravity(SG)* - In winemaking this is a number which tells the amount of sugar content in a must or wine. A common starting SG is around 1.080-1.100, but not always. An common ending 'dry' SG would be around .992-.995.
> 
> *Racking* - To transfer a liquid from one vessel to another. Normally done to remove the wine from the lees. Part of the clearing process.
> 
> *Campden Tablets* - Potassium Metabisulfite in tablet form which is used at the ratio of 1 tablet per gallon when adding to wine. Can be called '_NA-Meta_'.
> 
> *K-Meta* – Is _Potassium Metabisulfite_(see below) Normal usage is 1/8 tsp to 1/4 tsp for 6 gallon recipe in must 24 hours before adding yeast. Add 1/4 tsp for 6 gallons after fermentation for preservation. Use 3 tbls per gallon of water for sanitization of equipment ( AKA Campden tablets in solid form)
> 
> *NA-Meta* - Is Sodium Metabisulfite. Normal usage is 1/8 tsp to 1/4 tsp per 6 gallon recipe in must 24 hours before adding yeast. Add 1/4 tsp for 6 gallons after fermentation for preservation. Use 3 tbls per gallon of water for sanitization of equipment ( AKA Campden tablets in solid form)
> 
> * Potassium Metabisulfite* – Added 24 hour before adding yeast. This is to destroy any wild molds and bacteria that may have been on the fruit. Also added after fermentation to reduce oxidation (which will affect the colour and flavour of the wine). Used in stronger doses with water as an equipment sanitizer.
> 
> *Potassium Sorbate* - Sometimes called "_Wine Stabilizer_", is added to finished wines before bottling to reduce the possibility of re-fermentation.
> 
> *Pectic Enzyme* – A liquid or powder that is added to crushed fruit to increase juice extraction. Also added to juice prior to fermentation to enhance the clarification process. The powdered form can be stored for a longer time before losing its strength.
> 
> *Yeast Nutrient* - Yeast Nutrient supplies nitrogen to the yeast in the singular form of a phosphate.
> 
> *Yeast Starter* – Method of rehydrating and activating yeast and accustoms it to the must prior to fermentation
> Gist starter / Yeast starter
> 
> *Yeast Energizer* - Supplies the wine yeast with much needed nitrogen, but from a wider range of nutrients than just phosphate. Energizer contains over a dozen yeast extractive proteins, along with B1 Vitamin, and di-ammonium phosphate. All are valuable sources of nitrogen. Good to use when must derivative is unlike grapes.
> 
> *Acid Blend* - This is a blend of the primary acids found in fruit. Acid blend can contain any two or three of the primary acids (tartaric acid, citric acid and malic acid) in any quantity. Acid blend can be store bought or self made by the home winemaker.
> 
> *F-Pak* - Flavor Pack. Usually a concentrated juice of the original fruit ingredients or similar. Can also be simple syrup, honey, or other flavorings added once fermentation is complete. Sorbate and K-meta should be added prior to any F-Pak to prevent secondary fermentation.
> FPAC, what when why and how?
> 
> *Fining agent* – Organic or inorganic compound added at end of fermentation to clarify and to change colour, odour, flavour and stability.
> 
> *Benzoate* - yeast inhibitor(blueberrys have them naturally)
> 
> *Lees* - The spent yeast cells and fruit solids that accumulate on the bottom of winemaking vessels
> 
> *Bentonite* – Clay additive used before fermentation and after. It provides nucleation sites for the yeast during primary fermentation. It also makes the wine clearer and more stable by removing the protein haze and undesirable particles from a finished wine in a very short period of time.
> 
> *Fining Agents* - Usually bentonite, gelatin or isinglas, which are natural agents that are added to wine to accelerate the settling or clearing process.
> 
> *Pomace* - The solid materials left over from the fruit in winemaking or juicing. Such as the pulp in orange juice or spent fruit in a fruit sack left over after fermentation.


Can I ask a question? This is my second year making wine from fresh grapes and thanks for the great advice last year! I have been reading a few threads and have seen where members have said that you can make a red and a white wine out of the same grapes…. How is that possible?!


----------



## Rocky

cosmyccowboy said:


> Can I ask a question? This is my second year making wine from fresh grapes and thanks for the great advice last year! I have been reading a few threads and have seen where members have said that you can make a red and a white wine out of the same grapes…. How is that possible?!


The color comes from the skins so if one presses the grapes and does not let the juice sit on the skins, the wine will not pick up much if any of the color.


----------



## winemaker81

cosmyccowboy said:


> Can I ask a question? This is my second year making wine from fresh grapes and thanks for the great advice last year! I have been reading a few threads and have seen where members have said that you can make a red and a white wine out of the same grapes…. How is that possible?!


Most wine grapes have white flesh and juice. However, some (called Teinturier) have colored flesh and juice.


----------



## cosmyccowboy

Rocky said:


> The color comes from the skins so if one presses the grapes and does not let the juice sit on the skins, the wine will not pick up much if any of the color.


Thanks, I may try that next year


----------



## cosmyccowboy

My grapes are black munaka and concord, plus a few muscadine and scuppernong


----------



## winemaker81

cosmyccowboy said:


> My grapes are black munaka and concord, plus a few muscadine and scuppernong


You may consider Saignée, which is the French term meaning the grapes are crushed and some of the juice is quickly drawn off. The juice is used to make a white or rose, while the remaining pulp + juice is used to make a heavier red; heavier because the ratio of pulp to juice is higher.


----------



## cosmyccowboy

winemaker81 said:


> You may consider Saignée, which is the French term meaning the grapes are crushed and some of the juice is quickly drawn off. The juice is used to make a white or rose, while the remaining pulp + juice is used to make a heavier red; heavier because the ratio of pulp to juice is higher.


I have a few muscadine and scuppers left i may try this with them. Last week I thawed out a bunch of blueberries i had. After hand crushing, pouring everything into a nylon bag, then putting the nylon bag into my wine press and squeezing out everything I could I ended up with 2 gallons of pure blueberry juice with a brix of 10. I really really wanted 3 gallons of juice (because I had a empty 3 gallon glass carboy) so I added one gallon of water and enough sugar to bring the brix up to 22. I just pitched the yeast today at 1:30


----------



## cosmyccowboy

cosmyccowboy said:


> I have a few muscadine and scuppers left i may try this with them. Last week I thawed out a bunch of blueberries i had. After hand crushing, pouring everything into a nylon bag, then putting the nylon bag into my wine press and squeezing out everything I could I ended up with 2 gallons of pure blueberry juice with a brix of 10. I really really wanted 3 gallons of juice (because I had a empty 3 gallon glass carboy) so I added one gallon of water and enough sugar to bring the brix up to 22. I just pitched the yeast today at 1:30


Too make a white or rose wine i should do the same thing, use the nylon bag to keep the skins and seeds out?


----------



## winemaker81

cosmyccowboy said:


> Too make a white or rose wine i should do the same thing, use the nylon bag to keep the skins and seeds out?


yes. Crush and immediately strain for juice.



cosmyccowboy said:


> I have a few muscadine and scuppers left i may try this with them. Last week I thawed out a bunch of blueberries i had. After hand crushing, pouring everything into a nylon bag, then putting the nylon bag into my wine press and squeezing out everything I could I ended up with 2 gallons of pure blueberry juice with a brix of 10. I really really wanted 3 gallons of juice (because I had a empty 3 gallon glass carboy) so I added one gallon of water and enough sugar to bring the brix up to 22. I just pitched the yeast today at 1:30


While it's normal to make country (fruit) wines by adding water, in your situation you might consider adding another juice to bring the total to 3.5 gallons. You need to start with more juice than the secondary container holds, as you'll lose volume to sediment.

Adding another juice (such as 1.5 gallons of Muscadine or Scuppernong) will make a richer wine. I suspect that the blueberry will overpower the grape, which is a good outcome IMO.


----------



## cosmyccowboy

winemaker81 said:


> yes. Crush and immediately strain for juice.
> 
> 
> While it's normal to make country (fruit) wines by adding water, in your situation you might consider adding another juice to bring the total to 3.5 gallons. You need to start with more juice than the secondary container holds, as you'll lose volume to sediment.
> 
> Adding another juice (such as 1.5 gallons of Muscadine or Scuppernong) will make a richer wine. I suspect that the blueberry will overpower the grape, which is a good outcome IMO.


I pitched the yeast at 1:30 this afternoon, is it to late to add the muscadine? Would tomorrow morning be to late?


----------



## cosmyccowboy

cosmyccowboy said:


> I pitched the yeast at 1:30 this afternoon, is it to late to add the muscadine? Would tomorrow morning be to late?


----------



## cosmyccowboy

cosmyccowboy said:


> I pitched the yeast at 1:30 this afternoon, is it to late to add the muscadine? Would tomorrow morning be to late?


I have some black munka wine that I fermented last week and is in a gallon jug with an airlock on top. I haven’t added any megabit to it yet so it may still be fermenting, can I add some of this?


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## cosmyccowboy




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## cosmyccowboy

This is mostly black munaka with a tiny bit of concord and muscadine mixed in the later batches


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## winemaker81

cosmyccowboy said:


> I pitched the yeast at 1:30 this afternoon, is it to late to add the muscadine? Would tomorrow morning be to late?


Nope. Go for it!



cosmyccowboy said:


> I have some black munka wine that I fermented last week and is in a gallon jug with an airlock on top. I haven’t added any megabit to it yet so it may still be fermenting, can I add some of this?


You can blend wines any way you want. Mixing finished wines into new wines is a common thing.

Ideally you want to have your must set prior to fermentation. For many reasons, life doesn't always work out that neatly. Generally speaking, let a wine finish fermenting -- the volume doesn't matter until you move to a secondary container, at which point you want to avoid headspace.

Once the wines are done fermenting, mix 'em as you see fit. Winemaking is a win or lose proposition -- if YOU are happy with the result, you've won. If you're not happy with result? Cook with it. All wines taste alike after being boiled.


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## cosmyccowboy

winemaker81 said:


> Nope. Go for it!
> 
> 
> You can blend wines any way you want. Mixing finished wines into new wines is a common thing.
> 
> Ideally you want to have your must set prior to fermentation. For many reasons, life doesn't always work out that neatly. Generally speaking, let a wine finish fermenting -- the volume doesn't matter until you move to a secondary container, at which point you want to avoid headspace.
> 
> Once the wines are done fermenting, mix 'em as you see fit. Winemaking is a win or lose proposition -- if YOU are happy with the result, you've won. If you're not happy with result? Cook with it. All wines taste alike after being boiled.


Thanks so much!!!


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## cosmyccowboy

In the 3 gallons of blueberry wine I pitched 1/8 teaspoon of megabits in it and let it sit for 24 hours before pitching the yeast


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## cosmyccowboy

cosmyccowboy said:


> In the 3 gallons of blueberry wine I pitched 1/8 teaspoon of megabits in it and let it sit for 24 hours before pitching the yeast


I see I made a terminology mistake, in the 3 gallons of blueberry MUST I pitched the 1/8 teaspoon


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## Raptor99

cosmyccowboy said:


> In the 3 gallons of blueberry wine I pitched 1/8 teaspoon of megabits in it and let it sit for 24 hours before pitching the yeast


I've never tried adding megabits to my wine. Does that give it a better memory?  

Spelling auto-correct can be entertaining!


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## winemaker81

cosmyccowboy said:


> In the 3 gallons of blueberry wine I pitched 1/8 teaspoon of megabits in it and let it sit for 24 hours before pitching the yeast


What is "megabits"?


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## cosmyccowboy

winemaker81 said:


> What is "megabits"?


Hahaha I’m sure I’m saying it wrong, let me go look….. metabisulfate


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## TurkeyHollow

cosmyccowboy said:


> View attachment 91700


They're pretty looking but you should try to resist the urge to display them in the sunlight (bad for wine).


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## cosmyccowboy

Thanks, I have already moved them. That table is on the east very shaded side of the house and only gets a little weak daylight sun. They are in the closet now, I racked them once more. Added a 1/4 teaspoon of metabisulfate and stuck them in the dark closet


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## TurkeyHollow

cosmyccowboy said:


> Thanks, I have already moved them. That table is on the east very shaded side of the house and only gets a little weak daylight sun. They are in the closet now, I racked them once more. Added a 1/4 teaspoon of metabisulfate and stuck them in the dark closet


They will love you for it


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