# Which yeast for Malbec?



## dinolan

I'm waiting for my two buckets of Chilean Malbec juice to come in. In reserching yeasts, I see people are using FX10, D254, F15 or D80. I'm thinking of using D80 for one bucket, D254 for the other, then blending. Anyone have any suggestions, and why?

Thanks,
Mike


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## Tom

Lalvin RC212 is what I use for the last 4 years


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## robie

I would go with Tom's experience.

As a side, Brehm Frozen Grapes recommends D21, as Malbec is a hot climate grape:

http://www.brehmvineyards.com/grapes/malbec.html

(From what I can tell, in Argentina they let the natural yeast do the fermentation, but don't ever try this at home as it likely would be a total disaster.)


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## dinolan

Thanks for the suggestions. As of right now, I'm gonna use D80 in one, D254 in the other, and blend.


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## Tom

I'm not sure why you want to blend 2 yeasts. Let them both finish and bottle separately. Then "Taste" the difference.


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## robie

I can't speak for Dinolan, but blending the results from fermentations of multiple yeasts can give you the advantage each yeast has to offer, all in the same wine.

One yeast may tout good mouth fill, the next fruit forward. Blend the results of these two and you could have a wine with both qualities. Typically, this sort of thing is left to the professional wine makers.


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## dinolan

First, Tom, I'd be blending the wines, not the yeast. And as Robie said, I'd like to see if I can get the benefits and characteristics from both the D-80 and D-254. If you look at the Lalvin website you can see what they are, and they in fact suggest doing that with wines made from these two yeasts. I'm far from an expert, but I'll give it a shot. The winemakers at M&M have been very helpful, so I know I can get help if I need it.


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## robie

Dinolan,

Some yeasts require a starter like Go-Ferm and a yeast nutrient like Fermaid K, just to name two.
If your two specific yeasts require such or any other supplements, you need to make sure you have what they require or you could very easily have a stuck fermentation on your hands.

You also will need to watch the temperature, because 82 degrees F is the max temperature for both the yeasts you are going to use.


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## Lurker

Wow, I don't know much about diff. yeasts, but if blending gets all of the advantages, it will probably get disadvantages also.


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## dinolan

I'll find out! In reading the descriptions of the yeast characteristics, the D80 and D254 make wines that go together pretty well. It will be a matter of figuring out the right %'s of which wine to put in. Taste, taste, taste is what we'll have to do.


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## Rock

robie said:


> I can't speak for Dinolan, but blending the results from fermentations of multiple yeasts can give you the advantage each yeast has to offer, all in the same wine.
> 
> One yeast may tout good mouth fill, the next fruit forward. Blend the results of these two and you could have a wine with both qualities. Typically, this sort of thing is left to the professional wine makers.



This is what i do with very good results.


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## Lurker

Wow, what an ordeal all that tasting must be. I really feel sorry for you, in fact, I am offering my help in order to releave you of that problem.


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## Finnbheara

*Yeast for Malbec*

The idea of using different yeast for different batches of the same wine is a time honoured tradition. The winemaker can then, prior to bottling, make decisions about blending. I often keep some of the original fermentation and then blend some. It all depends on how much you like the various blendings.
The last time I made Malbec, I used D254 and D80 on two separate batches.
Both had subtle differences. You can read about the various yeast effects on the Lalvin site. I then tried various proportions of blendings, glass by glass. It's a difficult task, tasting all these blendings, but it's a calling and if my liver survives, I shall continue my crusade. In the case above and in many others, I kept 50% separate and blended the other half.
Over time, as it has matured, I find I prefer the blend.
Just a note. The original poster spoke of waiting for his pails of juice.
I cannot stress enough the potential for improved product by using grapes instead of juice. The skins provide infinitely more potential for successful product. Alas, one needs a crusher and press to achieve this.


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## dinolan

If I had to go back and do it over, I would have used grapes instead of the juice buckets, for the reasons you stated. But, I have what I have, I'll make the best of it. I did use two yeasts, F15 and FX10, and the batches are bulk aging. Later in the spring I'll start tasting, and maybe add a tannin supplement depending how they taste. and blend, too. I like your blending strategy. Mike


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## homer

Why not do both, bottle half each one then mix the two and see what you like better. bk


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## robie

dinolan said:


> If I had to go back and do it over, I would have used grapes instead of the juice buckets, for the reasons you stated. But, I have what I have, I'll make the best of it. I did use two yeasts, F15 and FX10, and the batches are bulk aging. Later in the spring I'll start tasting, and maybe add a tannin supplement depending how they taste. and blend, too. I like your blending strategy. Mike



I haven't tried your particular yeast varieties on malbec before, so I'm very interested in how it all turns out. I'll bet you are going to be surprised at the differences in taste the two yeast varieties bring. 

Please, let us know about each and their differences; which one you like the best and if the blend is even better than the better single. For me, it's this sort of thing that makes wine making lots of fun.


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## dinolan

robie said:


> I haven't tried your particular yeast varieties on malbec before, so I'm very interested in how it all turns out. I'll bet you are going to be surprised at the differences in taste the two yeast varieties bring.
> 
> Please, let us know about each and their differences; which one you like the best and if the blend is even better than the better single. For me, it's this sort of thing that makes wine making lots of fun.



I can't wait to do bench trials and see what they taste like. I only tried brief tastes when racking and stuff is still a little young. I'll let you know when I get into it.


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## MontyPython

Resurrecting the thread, as I'm about to start a bucket of Chilean malbec next week, and researching yeasts. 

How did the blending workout?


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## bzac

I would agree , splitting ferments of the same vareital is a good way to build in complexity . With my pinot noir I can use 4 or 5 yeasts.

With a juice pail splitting the ferment and using two seperate yeasts is a good idea as juice pails can always use help in building some of the complexity lost from not having skins present.

D80 and D254 are classically paired in new world wines and are high compatable for post fermetnation blending , and sometimes a third parter is used , that partner is d21.


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## bzac

ICV-D80 was isolated by Dominique Delteil of the ICV in 1992 from the Cote Rotie area of the Rhone Valley. In addition to its' ability to enhance tannin structure, it's know for being able to ferment musts high in sugar and polyphenols. With proper nutrition, aeration and fermentation temperatures below 82 degrees F, ICV-D80 will ferment up to 16% alcohol. ICV-D80 brings high fore-mouth volume, big mid-palate mouthfeel and intense fine grain tannin to reds. It is one of the best strains for contributing big tannin volume in a blend. ICV-D80 is characterized by concentrated, dark fruit, smoke and a licorice finish. When blended with wines fermented with ICV-D254 or Syrah, wines fermented with ICV-D80 bring more tannin intensity to the blend. In short, this yeast is truly great for the structural support it can bring to a wine. However, if the winemaker is looking for highlighted fruit and ethereal top-notes as well, it often may not be the best choice when using a single strain in the vintage. Therefore, it may help to think of it as usually needing a companion strain to help bring everything to a finished wine. 

Lalvin ICV-D254®: For mouthfeel in Mediterranean-style reds 
Lalvin ICV-D254 was selected by the ICV in 1998 from Syrah fermentations in Gallician, south of the Rhône Valley. In red wines, Lalvin ICV-D254 promises high fore-mouth volume, big mid-palate mouthfeel, intense fruit concentration, smooth tannins and a mildly spicy finish. Red wines made with Lalvin ICV-D254 may be blended with Lalvin ICV-D80 or Lalvin ICV-D21 to create more concentrated, full bodied wines. In unripe reds, ferment 25-50% of the lot with Lalvin ICV-D254 and the balance with Lalvin ICV-GRE to help mask vegetative character. As a complement to Lalvin Bourgoblanc CY3079, winemakers in North America use Lalvin ICV-D254 for fermenting Chardonnay with nutty aromas and creamy mouthfeel. 

Lalvin ICV-D21®: The ‘terroir’ yeast 
Lalvin ICV-D21 was isolated in 1999 from Pic Saint Loup Languedoc “terroir” during a special regional program run by the Institut Coopératif du Vin (ICV)’s Natural Micro-Flora Observatory and Conservatory. Lalvin ICV-D21 was selected for fermenting red wines with stable color, intense fore-mouth, mid-palate tannin structure, and fresh aftertaste. Unlike most wine yeasts, Lalvin ICV-D21 contributes both higher acidity perception and positive polyphenol reactive polysaccharides. Strong interactions of the polysaccharides with the floral and fruity volatile compounds (β-ionone, ethyl hexanoate) contribute to a more stable aromatic profile in the mouth. These attributes avoid the development of cooked jam and burning-alcohol sensations in highly mature and concentrated Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and Syrah. During fermentation, Lalvin ICV-D21 produces very few sulfides and it is also noted for its good fermentation performance even under high temperature and low nutrient conditions. It allows for the expression of fruit from the grapes while reducing the potential for herbaceous characters in Cabernet sauvignon. When blended with wines fermented with Lalvin ICV-D254 and Lalvin ICV-D80, Lalvin ICV-D21 brings fresher, sustained intense fruit and lively sensations beginning in the fore-mouth and carrying through to the aftertaste. Lalvin ICV-D21 is also used in very ripe white grapes, barrel-fermented to develop fresh fruit aromas, volume and acidity which compliments wines fermented with Enoferm ICV-D47 in blends. Rosé wines fermented with Lalvin ICV-D21 have enhanced red fruit, fore-mouth volume and balance, making it the perfect blending complement to Rosé wines fermented with Lalvin ICV-GRE.


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## Rocky

Very interesting, Bzac. I wanted to add a greater emphasis on my choice of yeast this year and your post has a lot of great information. I think the problem we will have is finding some of these strains here in the "Colonies." Are these yeasts readily available where you are or elsewhere in Europe? I like big, bold Italian type reds (who would have thought that!?) and I am eager to apply some of these recommendations.


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## ibglowin

Morewine has a very nice selection of harder to find wine yeast available in small or large quantities.


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## bzac

I do most of my winemaking back home in Vancouver , and usually use more wine or my local supplier for yeasts.

make sure you order your yeasts in July or august , waiting till you have grapes on the way in the last week of september when every one else is trying to get theirs is likely to result in dissapointment. out side of the peak season you can order them anytime.


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## JohnT

I agree with Tom. I have made Malbec and used RC212 (Lalvin).


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## bzac

212 is a good go to basic red yeast , my first 4 years making wine from grape I used nothing else for reds . still is one of my pinot noir blenders . I really like it for zinfandel and any red you want to drink young . I used it on Chilean malbec one year with good results , it needs a good amount of fermaid K though to prevent h2s.

Lalvin Bourgorouge RC212®: For Pinot noir with color and structure
Lalvin Bourgorouge RC212 was selected from fermentations in Burgundy by the BIVB to extract and protect the polyphenols of Pinot noir. Due to the limited adsorption of polyphenols on Lalvin Bourgorouge RC212 yeast cell walls, there is limited color loss and structure is protected during aging. It requires high nutrient additions to avoid the potential development of sulfides and demonstrates best results when rehydrated with the right nutrient and protectant. Lalvin Bourgorouge RC212 consistently produces Pinot noir with good structure, ripe cherry, bright fruit and spicy characteristics. Wines made with Lalvin Bourgorouge RC212 can be blended with wines made with RA17 to achieve more complexity and finesse.


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## robie

Don't know if this was mentioned already, but More wine has a very nice yeast/grape pairing guide that is great for reference:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf


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## bzac

using a rehydration nurtrient and a complex fermentation nutirent like fermaid K is just good practice regardless of what yeast you use .
RC212 is not as prone to produceing H2S as is a yeast like motrachet or D47 but the risk is there.

IMO the biggest problem I see with RC212 is that its one of the 5 home winemakers yeasts that Lallmand sells in 5 gram packets for homewinemakers , most of which don't have a full appreciation of the benefits of good yeast nutritian. 

90% of the h2s cases I get asked about my first question is , Did you use nutirent? And 90% of the time the answer is , either "Whats that?" or a misguided " no I don't want any chemicals in my wine" ( there are fully organic nutrients available, so if you are a died in the wool granola there is no excuse for poor yeast health) .

What yeast they used is a secondary concern after implementing a proper nutirent regime .
Its a risk but a managable one.

Where I get picky about a yeasts H2S tendencies is if I know I am dealing with risky fruit , ie late sulfur spray or hybrids or very ripe or under ripe or if I am planning a sur lie or extended maceration.

That said Montrachet is on my banned list.

Z


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## BobF

I also have Chilean juice on the way and am planning the D80/D254 combo for 2 Malbecs and 2 Syrahs.

I also have #100 or so of Chambourcin grapes in the freezer. I wonder if it would be worth throwing some of these in - either adding the crushed grapes directly, or fermenting a batch of Chambourcin and adding the lightly pressed pulp to the juices.

Thoughts?


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## BobF

The reason I asked is that I'm getting -juice-, not grapes. The grapes I have are Chambourcin. I'm just wondering if getting some skins into the ferment makes sense. Another aspect to this is that recent reports on Chilean juice chemistry is low acid. The Chambourcins are a little high in the .7 range.

The only reason I would even consider this is because Chambourcin is so far my favorite grape.

I do agree on the separate ferment. I think I'll do the Chambourcin completely separate, keeping the free-run and pressed wines apart. This should give me the most options for blending later.

I'm glad to see you're a Malbec fan. The only Malbec I've had was lower end, but there was enough goodness in there to make me want to make some of my own. Who knows, it might become my new favorite


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## bzac

MartyYule said:


> Well Said! Good advice. There is no substitute for nutrition. Some of the late spraying that took place this past year it wouldn't have mattered what yeast you used. Only a serious nutrient protocol would minimize the problems. Montrachet DO NOT USE should be a sticky topic!



I don't know about only , there are new yeasts on the market which are said to not produce h2s.

if faced with late sulfur sprayed fruit I would follow the nutiritan and racking protocols that I wrote and winemaker magazine published for the early sulfur contaminated chilean fruit .

but I would update that with using phyterras new yeasts and a noblesse fining.

http://phyterra.com/products/index.html


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## Mario Dinis

Very good information here, thank you for that. I too use pails of California juice. Don't have the room nor the equipment for grapes. I'm planning on doing Malbec, Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon, maybe throw Syrah in it too. Separate fermentation and blend later. I see a lot of recommendations for D80, D254 and D21. I usually use Red Star Premier Rouge, but this time I'd like to try something different. What do you recommend for each wine?


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## 4score

We switched to Avante yeast a few years ago after battling H2S frequently. Avante does not allow H2S. It also has a high alcohol and temperature tolerance. We've been very happy with the results,


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## AbruzziRed

I am restarting this thread again with the hope of hearing how all your Malbecs turned out with the yeast(s) you used and recommendations.
I am getting my juice pail in a few weeks and have some thoughts about splitting the batch and trying two different yeasts. So...
What yeast a did you use?
Did you blend?
What were your thoughts on taste?


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## Mario Dinis

AbruzziRed said:


> I am restarting this thread again with the hope of hearing how all your Malbecs turned out with the yeast(s) you used and recommendations.
> I am getting my juice pail in a few weeks and have some thoughts about splitting the batch and trying two different yeasts. So...
> What yeast a did you use?
> Did you blend?
> What were your thoughts on taste?


Last year I made my first Malbec and mad a split batch with D80 and D254 yeast. I came to realize that I do prefer D80. D254 is too fruity.


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## AaronSC

This year (2020) I used D21 and GRE for Malbec. Still aging but I will do a comparison this weekend. For the most part I have been splitting my red batches between GRE, D80, D21 and D254 -generally just three yeasts per varietal. I then blend them together and age them together. For example, I used D80, D21 and D254 on my Zinfandel, with the goal of getting complexity, in terms of acid, tannin and fruit. I've definitely found that the blend of the yeasts (given some time to "meld") is preferred over single yeast wines, for reds.

I already went through and tasted the various whites and the yeasts I used -there were some really strong conclusions that I should report elsewhere on this board.


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