# Red Cab Sauvignon from Grape Juice Pails



## JerryF (Jan 20, 2013)

Late September 2010 my son's father-in-law invited me to join him in making a batch of red cabernet sauvignon. We purchased I think it was something like 18 5-gal pails of the juice from a local vendor (well respected vendor - juice source California). My son's father-in-law is Italian born and we made the wine in accordance with his family's traditional Italian method. Juice all-in the glass demi-jons, no yeast, sugar or other additives (just the juice, still loaded with skins and pulp). Over time and multiple rackings, etc., we finally bottled in May 2011. The wine is very good. I asked him if he knew what the ABV% was and he had no idea, just made it the traditional way his family has always done it since the 1930's. If we wanted to get an "approximation" of ABV, can we make any kind of assumption on what the SG of the juice might have been initially? I read the SG as it is today at 0.997 but without an intial SG, there's no way I know to make the ABV calculation of ISG-FSG/0.0074 for the estimate. 

Just curious as the answer will in no way change our opinion on what has turned out to be a very tasty, med-dry Cab. Jerry


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## novalou (Jan 20, 2013)

JerryF said:


> Late September 2010 my son's father-in-law invited me to join him in making a batch of red cabernet sauvignon. We purchased I think it was something like 18 5-gal pails of the juice from a local vendor (well respected vendor - juice source California). My son's father-in-law is Italian born and we made the wine in accordance with his family's traditional Italian method. Juice all-in the glass demi-jons, no yeast, sugar or other additives (just the juice, still loaded with skins and pulp). Over time and multiple rackings, etc., we finally bottled in May 2011. The wine is very good. I asked him if he knew what the ABV% was and he had no idea, just made it the traditional way his family has always done it since the 1930's. If we wanted to get an "approximation" of ABV, can we make any kind of assumption on what the SG of the juice might have been initially? I read the SG as it is today at 0.997 but without an intial SG, there's no way I know to make the ABV calculation of ISG-FSG/0.0074 for the estimate.
> 
> Just curious as the answer will in no way change our opinion on what has turned out to be a very tasty, med-dry Cab. Jerry



Making it like this is risky. You really don't know if the wild yeast will give you a good tasting wine. Ever have cider in the fridge ferment on you? Sometimes it is nasty. Use a yeast starter.

Without that original SG reading, there's no way of knowing the alcohol content.


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## Runningwolf (Jan 20, 2013)

Jerry I think you would be safe to assume it started out at 21 brix as this is what most commercial places shoot for when selling these pails. No guarantee though. While the process you have chosen to take is risky there are still many folks doing it successfully. I would suggest to you to drink it early before it spoils (within the next year), but others will tell you they're still drinking it two or three years later. At that point it is what I would call salad dressing.


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## JerryF (Jan 20, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> Jerry I think you would be safe to assume it started out at 21 brix as this is what most commercial places shoot for when selling these pails. No guarantee though. While the process you have chosen to take is risky there are still many folks doing it successfully. I would suggest to you to drink it early before it spoils (within the next year), but others will tell you they're still drinking it two or three years later. At that point it is what I would call salad dressing.



I agree with the riskiness but this is his family method (recipe) that has been used since the 1930's I understand. I will in no way suggest he make changes (even though I may secretly agree). Also comment from novalou was similar. I've drank many a glass of his wine's from different years and I can comment that there are differences from year to year batches. Drinking it early (i.e. before a year) is probably a real good call. None of my bottles have done it but several others in the family have indeed built up a large inventory of salad dressing!


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2013)

Jerry, did you add sulfites to the wine after it was done fermenting? When we made wine "the old Italian way" we did not have sulfites until the mid 1960's and then it was Sodium Metabisulfite. Prior to that, wine did spoil after a while, but the amount that did was negligible and was made into vinegar. Later when we began to use the sulfites, spoilage was non-existent.

There is a way to get an approximate ABV of the wine without knowing the original SG. Take a known quantity of the wine, say 100 ml, and put it in a saucepan. Turn on the heat and keep the temperature of the wine at or below 180 degrees F for about 10-15 minutes. Alcohol boils at about 176 degrees F and water, of course, 212 degrees F. After that time, pour the remaining wine into a graduated cylinder or other measuring device and see what volume remains. The lost volume is the alcohol that boiled off. That quantity over the original 100 ml is the approximate ABV.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 20, 2013)

You could use a vinometer, but from what I've read, their accuracy is questionable. I actually bought one several months ago just to test it out, but haven't tried it yet. I'm interested to see if it varies greatly from my own calculations.


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## JerryF (Jan 20, 2013)

Runningwolf said:


> Jerry I think you would be safe to assume it started out at 21 brix as this is what most commercial places shoot for when selling these pails. No guarantee though. While the process you have chosen to take is risky there are still many folks doing it successfully. I would suggest to you to drink it early before it spoils (within the next year), but others will tell you they're still drinking it two or three years later. At that point it is what I would call salad dressing.



I just went down to my "cellar" (really only a winemaking bench and a few sets of shelves) and checked another bottle. As I mentioned before, the SG is at 0.997, and if I look at the scales on my hydrometer, that puts the BRIX reading at 0.00. If I assumed the initial brix at 21.0, the lines across my hydrometer would suggest an initial SG at around 1.097 (that would theoretically calculate his wine out to be around 12.2 ABV%). While I am familiar with the importance of reading SG throughout the process (and how to use it to calculate ABV), I don't know the significance of the brix readings (initial and final), or how to use it for any calculations such as ABV% or otherwise.


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## JerryF (Jan 20, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> You could use a vinometer, but from what I've read, their accuracy is questionable. I actually bought one several months ago just to test it out, but haven't tried it yet. I'm interested to see if it varies greatly from my own calculations.



Likewise, I thought a vinometer would be the answer and I did pick one up. Frankly, I think they are garbage and totally useless. I couldn't see anything at all in the little capillary tube and I'm fairly certain I used it correctly. I don't think you will like it at all whenever you do get around to trying it.


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## JerryF (Jan 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Jerry, did you add sulfites to the wine after it was done fermenting? When we made wine "the old Italian way" we did not have sulfites until the mid 1960's and then it was Sodium Metabisulfite. Prior to that, wine did spoil after a while, but the amount that did was negligible and was made into vinegar. Later when we began to use the sulfites, spoilage was non-existent.
> 
> There is a way to get an approximate ABV of the wine without knowing the original SG. Take a known quantity of the wine, say 100 ml, and put it in a saucepan. Turn on the heat and keep the temperature of the wine at or below 180 degrees F for about 10-15 minutes. Alcohol boils at about 176 degrees F and water, of course, 212 degrees F. After that time, pour the remaining wine into a graduated cylinder or other measuring device and see what volume remains. The lost volume is the alcohol that boiled off. That quantity over the original 100 ml is the approximate ABV.



Hah! You sound like my old chemistry professor! Absolutely right on. Having recently retired as a chemical/environment engineer for 41 years, I could see your method as being one of the more 'absolute' ones. In my old lab from work, we had what is called a rotational vacuum still, a fancy way of getting exactly what you described. I didn't mean to make it sound like I "had to know the ABV" to enjoy the wine. I really do not care as long as it has good taste. Just one of those nice to know kind of things. Oh, and no, there was no sulfite addition.


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## Thig (Jan 20, 2013)

JerryF said:


> I don't know the significance of the brix readings (initial and final), or how to use it for any calculations such as ABV% or otherwise.



Brix is just another scale like SG, means nothing when computing ABV without knowing the beginning and ending number.


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## Rock (Jan 21, 2013)

JerryF said:


> Late September 2010 my son's father-in-law invited me to join him in making a batch of red cabernet sauvignon. We purchased I think it was something like 18 5-gal pails of the juice from a local vendor (well respected vendor - juice source California). My son's father-in-law is Italian born and we made the wine in accordance with his family's traditional Italian method. Juice all-in the glass demi-jons, no yeast, sugar or other additives (just the juice, still loaded with skins and pulp). Over time and multiple rackings, etc., we finally bottled in May 2011. The wine is very good. I asked him if he knew what the ABV% was and he had no idea, just made it the traditional way his family has always done it since the 1930's. If we wanted to get an "approximation" of ABV, can we make any kind of assumption on what the SG of the juice might have been initially? I read the SG as it is today at 0.997 but without an intial SG, there's no way I know to make the ABV calculation of ISG-FSG/0.0074 for the estimate.
> 
> Just curious as the answer will in no way change our opinion on what has turned out to be a very tasty, med-dry Cab. Jerry


Sure sounds like from this post your looking for ABV.Whats your point?


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## JerryF (Jan 22, 2013)

Rock said:


> Sure sounds like from this post your looking for ABV.Whats your point?



Hmmm, seems clear enough, everyone else got the point. You are correct, I was looking for ABV, IF there was a way to do it without the initial reading. All I meant was that it was something I'd like to know but I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I didn't know because the wine tastes just fine. I appreciate your interest in my query though and hope we can exchange ideas in the future.


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## Pumpkinman (Jan 22, 2013)

I agree, it would be nice to know the ABV, one of the things just about everyone I've ever known does is look at the label and look to see what the ABV is.

Jerry, I have a few friends that have been making wine the "Old school Italian" way, same as your sons father in law. I've tasted excellent Chianti and a lot of really oxidized wines, the biggest disappointment is that after they gave me wine, it only took a few weeks for it to spoil, once transferred from the demijohns to the bottles that they use.

Would there be any benefit to adding sulfite to your finish wine now? Maybe a few of the more well seasoned members can answer that.


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## JerryF (Jan 22, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> I agree, it would be nice to know the ABV, one of the things just about everyone I've ever known does is look at the label and look to see what the ABV is.
> 
> Jerry, I have a few friends that have been making wine the "Old school Italian" way, same as your sons father in law. I've tasted excellent Chianti and a lot of really oxidized wines, the biggest disappointment is that after they gave me wine, it only took a few weeks for it to spoil, once transferred from the demijohns to the bottles that they use.
> 
> Would there be any benefit to adding sulfite to your finish wine now? Maybe a few of the more well seasoned members can answer that.



I don't think I'd convince him to try the sulfite now. Myself however, I've got 22 bottles of his that I'd consider doing that to if the seasoned members suggest it's worth a try. I can always re-bottle and cork them. Thing is though, it doesn't taste bad so I'm unsure if I should even mess with it. Perhaps I should leave those considerations for another batch that I'll do myself. Jerry


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## jpsmithny (Jan 23, 2013)

My friend makes wine like this too! That's the way his family has done it for generations. He laughs every time I ask him about sulfites ,adding yeast,etc.
He owns a hydrometer but has not used it yet. I'll have to ask him how long the wine really lasts.

When I told him about making wine from juice and I wanted to try it, he scoffed and said the only way to do it is crush the grapes yourself.

Well, he is trying a juice bucket this year after I told him " Boy,if I had to make beer the way you make wine, I'd have to grow the barley,then malt it, crush it and so on". I'd never do it.

I have a little more information now and if it helps me make better wine, then all is good.


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