# Rosé ZERO skins time!



## Ajmassa (Oct 26, 2020)

Ok. Realistically the mean skins contact time probably about 15 min. 

Saigneé le Parking Lot








No doubt im the only stunad to treat their parking lot like it’s my basement. I sensed a major annoyance from the employees lol. But ask me how much I care  . Btw— not crushing my own grapes? Yeah that’s a never again. B/c if ya want somethin done right.......

350lbs Wash St cab yielded just about 35gal in total (w/ 4gal juice pulled)
Dry ice baths tonight. Will dive in tomorrow.
Very Happy with the rosé color. Glad I didn’t wait.


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## CDrew (Oct 26, 2020)

Wow-Lots of early color.

That will keep the wife happy with your wine making!

Got any other numbers?


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## stickman (Oct 27, 2020)

The grapes look pretty damn good from here!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

stickman said:


> The grapes look pretty damn good from here!


They are actually the smallest berries I’ve ever used. Tiny! Smaller than any blueberries I’ve ever seen. 



CDrew said:


> Wow-Lots of early color.
> 
> That will keep the wife happy with your wine making!
> 
> Got any other numbers?



Cold soaking currently in my crude icebox and didn’t really properly prep samples. I just pulled some juice from each bucket, combined and measured. Here’s the preliminary numbers

Cab 24.2%Brix
3.56 ph

rosé 24.8% Brix°
3.32ph
Planning rack the rosé off the junk and probably inoculate tonight or tomorrow. Acid looks ideal. Brix might need to come down. Idk I’ve adding nothing to the rosé. And only enzymes to the cab. Not sure when I should make my tannin addition to the cab (or if at all)


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

Btw- this saigneé rosé is extremely selfish. It was NOT done in good conscious. And I feel guilty and must confess my sin

The red Mountain cab fruit is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. With seemingly perfect numbers to boot. AND I am performing an extended cold soak to the must. AND I am using lallzyme exv during the soak. AND the berries are tiny leaving a VERY skins heavy must. I anticipate my yield to be much less than the typical 70%.

the saigneé was not needed. I suppose it will improvethe wine by concentrating the skins ratio. But not needed. Probably excessive. This is a reverse saigneé. Making a rosé while improving the mother wine as a byproduct— instead of the adverse.

ok. Clear conscience now.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

Oh and btw I was going to get a full panel lab test for the wine but I did not. It was a complete ripoff and couldn’t do it out of principle.
Pre fermentation panel:
ph, brix, TA, free so2 $50

Unnecessary as I can test them myself. (Even though I’ve all but stopped testing for TA as long as ph looks good)
malic level ($40) would be nice. but I believe they just run a chroma.
YAN ($40) obviously is helpful. But I can purchase the chems to test myself for cheaper than 1 test. So- no known YAN for this strictly because of spite!


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 27, 2020)

"Saigneé le Parking Lot"

Love it!!


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## CDrew (Oct 27, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Btw- this saigneé rosé is extremely selfish. It was NOT done in good conscious. And I feel guilty and must confess my sin
> 
> The red Mountain cab fruit is wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. With seemingly perfect numbers to boot. AND I am performing an extended cold soak to the must. AND I am using lallzyme exv during the soak. AND the berries are tiny leaving a VERY skins heavy must. I anticipate my yield to be much less than the typical 70%.



Nooo. Dude-you're doing the woman a favor. She and her friends will suck it down. Really. It's going to be a huge hit, and maybe a wine making home run. I'll trade you 2020 rosé. Lemme know in like April.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Nooo. Dude-you're doing the woman a favor. She and her friends will suck it down. Really. It's going to be a huge hit, and maybe a wine making home run. I'll trade you 2020 rosé. Lemme know in like April.


It’s a deal.
I have a few outstanding ‘promised bottles’ out there. I’ll get to it eventually. It’s just one of those things. I know one day I’ll get motivated and box up multiple. 

First I need to get some wine bottled! I’m bone dry. Ran out before getting to it.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 27, 2020)

Just inoculated. Nothing fancy here.
Bare bones ferment.
Racked off the sediment. It’s at 66°. 4gallons Remaining Sludge separating in the fridge.

no tannin products or opti white or anything. No acid. No brix knockdown.
sprinkled in d-47 and letting it go


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## Jay A (Oct 28, 2020)

Great looking fruit!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 31, 2020)

4 days after yeast and activity is more substantial then the 1st rose I did. Not sure why. I did add a shot of DAP along with fermaid K on Thursday. Maybe that’s it. Haven’t checked SG at all. Rosé has been steady between 63°-65°


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## Ajmassa (Nov 2, 2020)

5 days since inoculating D-47 w/ SG above 1.100
Currently at 65° The vigorous bubbling is done. Now it’s doing that slight shimmering surface sparkle co2 thing I’m familiar with.

My 1st check of SG yesterday. Only 1.092. ——- after 5 days? Wow. Hey as long as it’s goin down and looking healthy I’m happy. I admit I know very little about whites/rosé. Been in the carboy whole time. Nutrient wise I was just gonna treat it as I would a red and give a 2nd dose at 1/3 complete.
With such a slow SG drop rate- I’m not _concerned_ per se, considering temps, but I am gonna keep my eye on it checking more often. This slow drop sound somewhat normal or should I be concerned?


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## cmason1957 (Nov 2, 2020)

That seems to be much slower than I would expect it to be dropping. Although you are getting somewhat close to the minimum temperature tolerance of D47, which is 59 F. I say let it go, slow isn't really all that much of a problem, as long as it keeps dropping. I would add the yeast nutrient as you planned as well, that may warm it up a degree or two.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 3, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> That seems to be much slower than I would expect it to be dropping. Although you are getting somewhat close to the minimum temperature tolerance of D47, which is 59 F. I say let it go, slow isn't really all that much of a problem, as long as it keeps dropping. I would add the yeast nutrient as you planned as well, that may warm it up a degree or two.



SG check last night was 1.083. At 65°. 

Now 7 days since inoculating. Dropping slow and steady. .010 points in a day is actually an increase. So seems good. Like you said, I’m just gonna go with it. 

Quick question though, with whites or rosé —- is there ever a time during fermentation when you do intentionally introduce o2? Stirring or anything. I get uneasy trapping this in the carboy with no o2 at all while it’s fermenting. I feel like it needs some o2 to be healthy. Or if any funky odors start, to be able to release it, not bath in it. 

Idk, am I off base? What’s the deal with o2 and white ferments? My gut says to air it out occasionally


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## cmason1957 (Nov 3, 2020)

I treat my rose more like a red than a white, in that I do lid on bucket, but not closed off, temps are temps in the basement, which are around 63-65F, stir twice or three times a day, rack a bit earlier than I would with a red (around 1.015-1.010 or so). I also rack dirty and get everything I can. then three to five days to finish fermentation and rack leaving behind the gross lees.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 3, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> I treat my rose more like a red than a white, in that I do lid on bucket, but not closed off, temps are temps in the basement, which are around 63-65F, stir twice or three times a day, rack a bit earlier than I would with a red (around 1.015-1.010 or so). I also rack dirty and get everything I can. then three to five days to finish fermentation and rack leaving behind the gross lees.


Interesting. I honestly don’t know why I had it my head to be so protective with it. 
hearing your routine is helpful. I am very pro o2 for ferments and keeping this shut off from any o2 wasn’t sitting well. Not gonna move it. But I will def feel more comfortable stirring it up occasionally. Thanks Craig


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## stickman (Nov 3, 2020)

If it's in a carboy, just stick a turkey baster in there and give a couple of shots of air; I've got one modified with an extension tube for sampling that also works for this purpose.


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## balatonwine (Nov 3, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Quick question though, with whites or rosé —- is there ever a time during fermentation when you do intentionally introduce o2?



Me, myself and I, I stir twice daily and let in lots of O2 till the sugar content has dropped by no more than 2/3rds, then I rack and airlock. But that is also assuming a very active fermentation.

Ergo: That is a lot of airspace in your photos given the amount of (low) foaming activity on the surface. On that alone, I would move it to a smaller container to limit airspace, and airlock.

Side note: I have had wines ferment in a few days, a few weeks and even in one case a few months (was not completed till January). Always, the longer ferments made better wines. Slower is better, IMHO. Do not be in a hurry. Wine making, if anything, should teach patients.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 3, 2020)

stickman said:


> If it's in a carboy, just stick a turkey baster in there and give a couple of shots of air; I've got one modified with an extension tube for sampling that also works for this purpose.


nice. I have a few large syringes riggedbwith tubes as well. I use em for pulling refrigerated wine off lees. 

normally I’d just stir this without a 2nd thought-but the sediment I assume can deepen the color and I wanna keep it as light as I can so aerating like this sounds good to me.

I didn’t mention earlier, but I do smell “it”. It’s not bad. Not at all. But I know it’s there. And I don’t want it to get worse. I think my nose for h2s is much more aware since using non-h2s yeast lately.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 3, 2020)

balatonwine said:


> : That is a lot of airspace in your photos given the amount of (low) foaming activity on the surface. On that alone, I would move it to a smaller container to limit airspace, and airlock.
> 
> Side note: I have had wines ferment in a few days, a few weeks and even in one case a few months (was not completed till January). Always, the longer ferments made better wines. Slower is better, IMHO. Do not be in a hurry. Wine making, if anything, should teach patients.


It’s been under airlock from the jump and bubbler is bubblin. I wasn’t worried about o2 as the co2 is plentiful. Shook up some samples before testing, and the Co2 felt infinite.
I felt safe for now but I do agree with u. But 4 gal is a funky size and a PITA. Regardless of the subtle activity I should probably figure a better setup for headspace if it’s gonna be a while.
But no hurry here!. My ferments are always quick so this is nice. I hope this thing drags on for a while while steadily dropping SG. I wish all my fruit came in late like this. Cooler ferments and.... NO FRUIT FLIES! Thank god.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 4, 2020)

At this point I just wanna _not_ screw this up!!
Cool, Slow & steady. Already dosed nutrients twice. Detected h2s. Aerated and now no longer noticeable. Raised temps just for a quick boost to make sure she’s moving along properly. Color seems more pink than the 1st one I did. Hope it stays that way. Here’s the timeline so far

10/26 - grapes crushed. strained off juice immediately (1st rosé I pressed). Transferred to BB leaving sediment behind
10/27 - racked off sediment into carboy. Inocculated d-47. 63° 1.103
10/29 - visible surface activity. DAP + FermK added - 65°
11/1 - vigorous activity subsided. 65° 1.093
11/2 - hints of h2s noticed. 64° 1.083
11/3 - nutrients added. stirred must. Added heat pad 65° 1.078
11/4 - morning- heat pad removed. 75° 1.075
11/4 - evening- aerated. h2s no longer noticeable. Now 8 total days since inoculation. 69°. 1.069 SG. 

btw the main wine was inoculated on Monday at 50° after a little 7 day cold-soak experiment. Both wines are from 350lbs Wash St. Red Mountain. 100% Cab Sauv.
I added GoFerm directly into the must and sprinkled Avante on top. 2 full days later it’s at 63°. Surface yeast bubbling. No cap whatsoever yet. Sprinkling yeast seems to give a nice long extended lag phase compared to hydrating & mixing. Especially with a high skins:juice ratio. I also sprinkle pitched a batch last month & it was the same deal. It’s a good trick if someone wanted to gain a day or 2 of skins time.
Cab #’s
25% Brix°
3.61 ph
6.3g/L TA


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2020)

11/5 - 1.065. 
Rosé moving at a snails pace. Still bubbling and dropping tho. 
And on the cab still no skins cap as of this morning despite visible activity progression. I sprinkle pitched Monday night. as of Friday morning there has still yet to have a strong skins cap formed. Normally I don’t touch it until the first punch. I don’t punch until that cap is strong. At least a few inches. It’s noticeably progressing along a little each day and temps now at 65° but still no strong cap just yet. When this peaks I anticipate about 12” of cap.

Everything’s taking sooooo long. I believe this 4 day lag phase is from:
-low starting temps (50°) from the cold soak, 
-lower ambient temps (65°)since it’s November
-sprinkle pitching taking longer to work through the wine
-the very very skins heavy must made heavier by saigneé


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## cmason1957 (Nov 6, 2020)

I think after four days (maybe wait until 6 or 7), I would give it a stir no matter what just to help that yeast spread throughout the must.


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## stickman (Nov 6, 2020)

Based on your description it seems more like an un-inoculated ferment, just keep your nose in there and make sure nothing unusual is going on.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2020)

stickman said:


> Based on your description it seems more like an un-inoculated ferment, just keep your nose in there and make sure nothing unusual is going on.


The activity from the added yeast is obvious since it was in the surface. I’ve been able to watch the progression. And Temps been rising every day. But actually since it’s so thick I think good stir might kick everything off like @cmason1957 suggested. 

here’s the progression so you know im not crazy. 

Sunday - directly after cold soak transfer.
- thorough mixing - 45°



Monday 50° Yeast pitched


Tuesday - yeast activity fizzing directly where yeast was laying 60°



Wednesday - more pronounced surface activity 63°



Thursday - fizzing surface spots giving way activity throughout seen from co2 bubbles rising everywhere and the beginning of a skins cap. Level just starting to rise. 65°


** if the bottom has started fermenting from native yeast and the top from my cultured yeast-(not sure if possible) after mixing hopefully my cultured yeast would win out. Tho I don’t believe this to be happening since the bottom is a few degrees colder than the top


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## stickman (Nov 6, 2020)

There is no question in my mind that Kloeckera or other non-Saccharomyces yeast are working in the un-inoculated portion of the must producing some complexity. This is generally what winemakers are looking for when doing un-inoculated ferments, and your yeast at the top should take over at some point once mixed (@cmason1957 beat me to it). As long as it smells clean you should be fine, but if you detect any funk, it would be best to mix to provide more competition to the lower level.

It looks good to me, I just wanted to provide a friendly reminder about the things you can't see.


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## CDrew (Nov 6, 2020)

You are a patient man. If I had pitched on Monday and had minimal activity Friday I’d call 911. Can you warm it a bit just to give it a boost?


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## balatonwine (Nov 6, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> But 4 gal is a funky size and a PITA.



Yes. It is. I agree. 

I have demijohns in 17 liters, 10 liters and 5 liters for smaller projects. But one always loosed a lot of wine during racking from one 17 to a 10 and a 5, and so on. At times one must top up with last year's wine, or adding marbles to the container.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2020)

balatonwine said:


> Yes. It is. I agree.
> 
> I have demijohns in 17 liters, 10 liters and 5 liters for smaller projects. But one always loosed a lot of wine during racking from one 17 to a 10 and a 5, and so on. At times one must top up with last year's wine, or adding marbles to the container.


And even with all that it would still be a hassle! 4gal is ~15L. 17L demi too big. 10L too small. It’s cool though. I do have an open 3gal and plenty of 5L, 4L, 1gal, 1/2gal jugs to make it work. I’ll probably transfer when it’s closer to to dryness. Maybe around 1.020 I guess.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 6, 2020)

CDrew said:


> You are a patient man. If I had pitched on Monday and had minimal activity Friday I’d call 911. Can you warm it a bit just to give it a boost?


Eh. Considering all the factors at play it did all add u, instead of some unexplained anomaly.
And I was seeing consistent progress, albeit slow progress, but progress nonetheless. I pitched it so cold, plus I had just given it a shot of so2 as I was nervous native yeast would take it before I was ready. 30ppm
Confident b/c I used a super strong super tolerant yeast and these grapes are LOADED with sugar. The biggest factor is probably the skins ratio I bet. These berries were tiny. Like TINY tiny. So I know this thing was thick. Made even thicker with the saigneé. I’ll be mixing tonight tho no matter what. It’s far enoughalong that I think as soon as I mix it’s off to the races. 
I once added 300lbs worth of skins to 5gal of juice— that ferment was ALL CAP. And basically sludge. But it fermented just fine and there were no issues. So I’m confident all around. I don’t wanna warm it up even if I could tbh. The way I look at it is —im just gettin more time on the skins!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 6, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> And even with all that it would still be a hassle! 4gal is ~15L. 17L demi too big. 10L too small. It’s cool though. I do have an open 3gal and plenty of 5L, 4L, 1gal, 1/2gal jugs to make it work. I’ll probably transfer when it’s closer to to dryness. Maybe around 1.020 I guess.



Drinking the leftover now is always an option!


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## CDrew (Nov 6, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> And even with all that it would still be a hassle! 4gal is ~15L. 17L demi too big. 10L too small. It’s cool though. I do have an open 3gal and plenty of 5L, 4L, 1gal, 1/2gal jugs to make it work. I’ll probably transfer when it’s closer to to dryness. Maybe around 1.020 I guess.




The small amounts are what make "home wine making" painful. If you're a winery a 5 gallon waste is not a thing. Everything you do is in 100's or 1000's gallons amounts. But when you're making 10 -20 gallons at a time, you end up with weird amounts like 4 gallons, it's hard to know what to do. There is much less margin for error. Me personally, I'd like to work in 5 gallon amounts, but on a home scale, this is not possible where every bottle is precious. LOL.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 7, 2020)

CDrew said:


> The small amounts are what make "home wine making" painful. If you're a winery a 5 gallon waste is not a thing. Everything you do is in 100's or 1000's gallons amounts. But when you're making 10 -20 gallons at a time, you end up with weird amounts like 4 gallons, it's hard to know what to do. There is much less margin for error. Me personally, I'd like to work in 5 gallon amounts, but on a home scale, this is not possible where every bottle is precious. LOL.


And actually 4 gal was a mistake too. Was 10% of the 35gal must & rounded up. But should have done 10% of the juice (not must). Estimating 70% juice yield it woulda been about 2.5gal. And this is def not 70% juice. so in other words- I pulled more juice than I wanted to. 350lbsl gonna net me like no wine!— it’s like stirring mud

last night the wine had a dry cap couple inches thick. I punched and dosed fermK. Couldn testSg accurately since it’s like putting a stick in the mud. Somewhere between 1.105 and 1.090. And straining to be able to test is such a hassle. So, possibly not dropped yet or very little.
This morning cap was crazy thick. But not reforming quickly like it typically would at this point. At 66° 

It’s fermenting and showing progress but still moving a very slow pace just like the rosé. For this reason I decided to not add malo and wait till after. I don’t wanna mess with it.
As long as I see consistent progress and no funky smells I’m just gonna stay the course.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 11, 2020)

An update on these wines

Rosé —- 15 days since inoculating yeast. Last night 1.040. Today 1.036. Slow but consistent. Drops every day. 

Cab — 9 days since inoculation (16days on skins)
Last night 1.056. Today 1.047. Slow but now speeding up

I ended up warming the room for the last few days. Maintaining about 74°. The rosé is right there at 75°. Been stirring 1x a day. Sometimes with lees. Mostly w/o. 

The cab temps have started to rise. Peaking now at 77° post-punch. Very strong caps. Few hours to fully reform consistently. Smells amazing. Color is outstanding. Been punching and also some vigorous churning to aerate. 

Long ferments are great in theory but when not expected it’s enough to take ya out of your comfort zone for sure. Nutrients are a damn mess for me since this is dragging out. I’m kinda just winging it. Advice is welcomed. 

Rosé 
I went standard. Full dose at onset. Another full dose at 1/3. But I feel that was a mistake and I should have spread it out since that’s likely all gone by now. Think 1.035ish is too late for nutrients to help this finish dry? I have FermO and yeast hulls as well as K & DAP. 

Cabernet
I went full dose at onset. Then I started step feeding. 20% of a full dose last 3 nights (6g). Since doing this the SG drop has picked up and temps creeped up.
I’m at about the halfway point now so I want to give it a good shot to make sure enough is there to finish healthy because of how slow it’s going. Thinking of adding 1/2 dose of fermK matched with 1/2 dose of DAP. To this point I’ve added 60% of what would normally be my 2nd fermK dose. Feeling confident but this is uncharted territory for me. Any insight is welcome.


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## CDrew (Nov 11, 2020)

First let me say, you have some beautiful looking wine. That Cab just looks amazing with just the right color notes. My vote-Complete your last feeding with the Fermaid O or K, leave the DAP in the drawer. Avante likes heat and once it hits a temp it likes, it will complete fast-like just a day or three.

Second-I'd leave the Rosé alone. It sounds like it's got enough food with 2 full feedings.

Third-You have some serious bottling to do looking in the background!

And where are you going to put all that wine after you press? It looks like you're out of storage.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 11, 2020)

CDrew said:


> First let me say, you have some beautiful looking wine. That Cab just looks amazing with just the right color notes. My vote-Complete your last feeding with the Fermaid O or K, leave the DAP in the drawer. Avante likes heat and once it hits a temp it likes, it will complete fast-like just a day or three.
> 
> Second-I'd leave the Rosé alone. It sounds like it's got enough food with 2 full feedings.
> 
> ...



yeah man I’m excited forthis one. Supposed to be top notch grapes and so far it seems to be holding true with brix, acid, and color extraction as far as my novice eyes can tell. This wine will put me close to capacity for anything else substantial. Keeping at least one 54L demi open. Barrel time is now impossible. I could benefit from another. (And I really really want that 50L St Martin! Hopefully I can swing it)
Planning to repeat the same output next year. I definitely don’t want to add more demi’s tho. But I won’t bottle something until it’s ready. When Chilean comes around again Ill just do whatever I gotta do!
Real estate is going quick. A _cellars_ market! [Corny dad joke warning]


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## stickman (Nov 11, 2020)

The wine does look good, I'm sure you realize that you are now spoiled.

You might have to knock a hole in that cinder block and start tunneling for the barrel storage room, some chicken wire and a scratch coat on the walls and you're good to go!


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## Booty Juice (Nov 11, 2020)

I like your SS counters, especially that small roller. Here's my zero-skin-time Rose' - the colors look similar. It took 14 days to go dry.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 11, 2020)

stickman said:


> The wine does look good, I'm sure you realize that you are now spoiled.
> 
> You might have to knock a hole in that cinder block and start tunneling for the barrel storage room, some chicken wire and a scratch coat on the walls and you're good to go!


Lol. You joke, but I’m over here runnin thru a mental checklist of what it would actually take to build something like that. And then the local headlines - “Local man buried alive after underground wine cellar collapses during excavation” 




Booty Juice said:


> I like your SS counters, especially that small roller. Here's my zero-skin-time Rose' - the colors look similar. It took 14 days to go dry.
> 
> View attachment 68153



looks gorgeous! Hoping these long ferments benefit the wine like they say it does. In the background of that last pic you can see the 1st rosé I made. Was from Malbec grapes. Also zero skins time. Aged about 6 mos. now. Clear & tasty and if I didn’t want to tweak the acid I could bottle it now.

Your rosé already looks super clean and extremely similar color to my current ferment. What grape is it from?


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## CDrew (Nov 11, 2020)

You gotta bottle some wine. Just sayin'. You have a gold mine sitting right there.

But glad your 2020 vintage is going well. Very happy for you!


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## Booty Juice (Nov 12, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Your rosé already looks super clean and extremely similar color to my current ferment. What grape is it from?



That Rose' is a combo of Merlot and CS, from hillside grapes on a premium vineyard - so fingers crossed.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 15, 2020)

CDrew said:


> -Complete your last feeding with the Fermaid O or K, leave the DAP in the drawer. Avante likes heat and once it hits a temp it likes, it will complete fast-like just a day or three.


Yea that would be my logical thinking too. But as we all know, the wine gods laugh at our comfort & like to throw curveballs at times.

I left the rosé be. ticking away slowly but surely. I hit the cab with a good shot of fermK but was at 1.045 by the time I added it. I figured it wasn’t a large enough dose to do damage tho—which is a benefit of step feeding, assuming those nutrients will be eatin up quickly rather than lingering allowing for other other nastiest to be fed. 
I added a 20% dose 3 days in a row. Then hit it with a 50% to bring it home.

Room temp been kept above 70° Pace is still the same tho. Yesterday was at 1.025ish. 13 days since yeast. 20days on skins.
Rosé now 19 since yeast - 1.035ish yesterday.

no idea why this is going so much slower than typical. Native yeast? low nitrogen? Maybe. Never got a YAN level. I just wanna make sure nothing stalls and they both finish finish dry and healthy. Anticipating pressing Tuesday or Wednesday unless things unexpectedly pick up.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 16, 2020)

⏱


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## CDrew (Nov 16, 2020)




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## Booty Juice (Nov 21, 2020)

Pretty happy with this zero-skins-time, two week ferment rose'.

How's yours coming?


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## Ajmassa (Nov 21, 2020)

Booty Juice said:


> Pretty happy with this zero-skins-time, two week ferment rose'.
> 
> How's yours coming?



Ugh. 25 days since yeast. Shes givin me ogida!

11/15 - 1.023
11/17 - 1.019
11/19 - 1.018
11/20 - 1.016
11/21 - 1.015

got it on a heat pad I stir it occasionally. Steady heavy stream of co2 flowing up and airlock bubbling. Not sure what else to do besides check it daily. If it sticks then I guess I’ll cross that bridge when I get there.


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## Booty Juice (Nov 21, 2020)

It's down to preference obviously, but my rose' drinking family members would not object at all to bit of RS - would even prefer it as some splash a bit of 7 Up in there glass!


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## Ajmassa (Nov 21, 2020)

The cab however is essentially finished. The 15gal of free run is pushing .998 for a couple days now. The 8 gal of pressed wine is at .996 (in a 9gal demi) Not sure why they’d end at different SG’s. Free run still actively producing alot of co2 so hoping it finishes off the last couple ticks.

23 days on skins with a week of coldsoak. finished almost/maybe dry in about 17 days. Press was a fiasco since the basket was covered in filth. Did what I had to do in limited time and it all worked out in the end. No time to make it pretty paint and new staves- but it’s all good. This was 1st time i couldn’t fill the skins into 1 basket. Took 2 rounds.Currently waiting to rack off the gross lees. Chroma test showed mlf complete too.

I did a photo comparing all my 2020 wines. Sauv/Franc juice w/ Petite Verdot grapes came from the barrel. Ready to swap out for the Chilean Malbec. Both have legit color and will be wines I can be proud of though the Malbec is the superior wine of the two. (Have 7 gal of rosé from this Malbec too) Red mountain cab color is beyond exceptional. Damn near stains the glass purple! The Family Red however is a whole other story. Will update that one soon.

Here’s some pics from this week:


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## CDrew (Nov 21, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Ugh. 25 days since yeast. Shes givin me ogida!



You sure got the color right.

What is ogida?

edit: And, Congrats on the Cab. What a saga.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 21, 2020)

Booty Juice said:


> It's down to preference obviously, but my rose' drinking family members would not object at all to bit of RS - would even prefer it as some splash a bit of 7 Up in there glass!


Not us! We want this sucker DRY!




CDrew said:


> You sure got the color right.
> 
> What is ogida?


not sure how to spell it. Or if it’s even a real word lol. Might be just weird Italian/American slang. I meant ogida like heartburn. Like it’s causing me stress!!!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 21, 2020)

It is spelled "agita."


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## Ajmassa (Nov 22, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> It is spelled "agita."


Much obliged And check out the top question asked lol. I am not alone. 


Everything still slowly dropping over here btw. Following the pressing the SG’s kinda stood still for a little while. Temps had dropped at the time and the rosé seemed to stop for a couple daystoo actually.
I upped the heat some in the room yesterday. 

Rosé at 1.013. Down from 1.015.
cab free run down to .997
Cab pressed wine down to .995

Everything still droppin. the never ending ferments!


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## GreenEnvy22 (Nov 22, 2020)

Looks good, I did a similar amount of Dornfelder this year again as a Rose.
Crushed and pressed as quickly as I could on my own, probably an hour of skin contact time.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 22, 2020)

GreenEnvy22 said:


> Looks good, I did a similar amount of Dornfelder this year again as a Rose.
> Crushed and pressed as quickly as I could on my own, probably an hour of skin contact time.


Hmm. Still have yet to ever try a dornfelder. How’s it look?
Great thing about rosé is that there’s no rules! This is my 2nd one now. Both with almost no skins time. Malbec in spring was crushed and pressed right away. This cab was just strained without pressing. 

Seems like that’s not really the norm tho. Especially when it’s a big red saignée style rosé. I worry that the juice ends up lacking a whole lot of nutrients it would get from the skins. But I’m vain. Too concerned with the wine lookin good in the bottle! Im just gonna keep doing minimal skins time as possible until I run into grapes where I can’t!


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## CDrew (Nov 22, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Much obliged And check out the top question asked lol. I am not alone. View attachment 68621
> 
> 
> Everything still slowly dropping over here btw.
> ...



Yes. Instructive. You have FAR more patience than me. Good job sticking with it. It's working, and headed to a good place. Just not very fast. It's got to be the temperature. I think in brix, because it's easier, but thanks for reporting SG. I want reds finished in 7 days. Often less. But we're in the late fall here so the temps don't cooperate. Anyway, hoping your Rosé goes dry in the next couple of days. I've got everything dry except the last Sauvignon Blanc, but it's close. In 2-3 days 2020 fermentation will be over! I hope it's the same for you.


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## GreenEnvy22 (Nov 23, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Hmm. Still have yet to ever try a dornfelder. How’s it look?
> Great thing about rosé is that there’s no rules! This is my 2nd one now. Both with almost no skins time. Malbec in spring was crushed and pressed right away. This cab was just strained without pressing.
> 
> Seems like that’s not really the norm tho. Especially when it’s a big red saignée style rosé. I worry that the juice ends up lacking a whole lot of nutrients it would get from the skins. But I’m vain. Too concerned with the wine lookin good in the bottle! Im just gonna keep doing minimal skins time as possible until I run into grapes where I can’t!



It's pretty good, but I make it for a relative and she likes it super sweet. So we either back sweeten or stop fermentation, aiming for about 1.020 final gravity.
Dornfelder is really dark, so even just an hour of skin time gives it a nice red colour.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 23, 2020)

CDrew said:


> hoping your Rosé goes dry in the next couple of days. I've got everything dry except the last Sauvignon Blanc, but it's close. In 2-3 days 2020 fermentation will be over! I hope it's the same for you.



“the next couple days” ?! Lol I suppose maybe that could happen ——- if I wasn’t making wine in Bizzaro World like I’ve been! Was 1.013 yesterday— a looong way from dry for this wine. Shit, at its current pace I’m hoping to be dry by Christmas! Just for your amusement here’s the full timeline. Try not to to go crazy reading it. 

10/26 - crush/strained juice
10/27 - racked to glass. Added yeast 1.105
10/28 - ——
10/29 - 1st activity. FermK & DAP
10/30 - ——
10/31 - ——
11/1 - 1.093
11/2 - 1.083
11/3 - 1.078 (fermK)
11/4 - 1.073 (began stirring every other day)
11/5 - 1.065
11/6 - 1.059
11/7 - 1.056
11/8 - 1.050
11/9 - 1.045
11/10 - 1.039
11/11 - 1.036
11/12 - 1.033
11/13 - 1.029
11/14 - 1.027
11/15 - 1.023
11/16 - ——
11/17 - 1.019
11/18 - transferred to full vessels
11/19 - 1.018 (now daily stirring)
11/20 - 1.016
11/21 - 1.015
11/22 - 1.013
11/23 - 1.011


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## CDrew (Nov 23, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> “the next couple days” ?! Lol I suppose maybe that could happen ——- if I wasn’t making wine in Bizzaro World like I’ve been! Was 1.013 yesterday— a looong way from dry for this wine. Shit, at its current pace I’m hoping to be dry by Christmas! Just for your amusement here’s the full timeline. Try not to to go crazy reading it.
> 
> 10/26 - crush/strained juice
> 10/27 - racked to glass. Added yeast 1.105
> ...




What awesome data. You are a dedicated dude. And it's moving! But yah, slow. I'm used to things done in a week or two, but a month would make me crazy. You may be at that awhile!

It is bizarro world though. Almost a month and not close to dry is weird. It's got to be temp, because it's moving but it's taking it's time for sure. This could be the best wine you ever made.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 23, 2020)

CDrew said:


> What awesome data. You are a dedicated dude. And it's moving! But yah, slow. PlI'm used to things done in a week or two, but a month would make me 267-838-30
> 
> It is bizarro world though. Almost a month and not close to dry is weird. It's got to be temp, because it's moving but it's taking it's time for sure. This could be the best wine you ever made.


This slow rate is a 1st for me too. Never over a week for reds. And had white juice take almost 2 weeks once. Despite the slowness it has always been lower each day so made it easier to be patient. Around 1.020 it did a little stall fakeout but just billed thru. I was expecting it to stick at some point but hasn’t happened yet- making me hopeful it will fully finish.

definitely happy with the saigneé rosé decisions. I see no reason not to do it every season and get this little bonus wine


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## CDrew (Nov 24, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> definitely happy with the saigneé rosé decisions. I see no reason not to do it every season and get this little bonus wine



Yes, and interestingly a new paradigm. I have for 25 years dismissed rosé as inferior. But the whole home wine making thing and saigneé has helped me embrace it. And it's super good and a family pleaser. I definitely like it and it's so easy. I think every year should have several cases of rosé. The very best part is that it's ready in 6 months or so.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 24, 2020)

And generally food-friendly!


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## Chuck Rairdan (Nov 25, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Yes, and interestingly a new paradigm. I have for 25 years dismissed rosé as inferior. But the whole home wine making thing and saigneé has helped me embrace it. And it's super good and a family pleaser. I definitely like it and it's so easy. I think every year should have several cases of rosé. The very best part is that it's ready in 6 months or so.



May give this a whirl next season. Do you add the pressed skins in with your reds must for additional extraction/tannins?


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## Chuck Rairdan (Nov 25, 2020)

... Also, any preference for a fresh press rose' vs. a reconstituted skins rose'? Do you bottle with carbonation or some residual sugar for secondary in the bottle or stabilize before bottling? I know, so many questions, but I am remembering the chilled Gallo rose' from years past and it was delightful in its own right and had a bit of sparkle to it.


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## CDrew (Nov 25, 2020)

Chuck Rairdan said:


> May give this a whirl next season. Do you add the pressed skins in with your reds must for additional extraction/tannins?



I did in 2019, but for 2020 I just disposed of the pressed skins. I wasn't sure it added anything and so for simplicity, I just pressed and went forward. So I guess for me in 2020, technically, it isn't even saigneé. I'm going to re-evaluate next year and will likely do a true saigneé again depending on the amount and quality of the grapes I get.

I didn't do any bottle carbonation or backsweetening.

I have to say for 2020 it already tastes great. In 6 months, I'm expecting it to be terrific.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 25, 2020)

Chuck Rairdan said:


> May give this a whirl next season. Do you add the pressed skins in with your reds must for additional extraction/tannins?


Exactly The rosé technically is just a byproduct of — a technique called saigneé.
Saignée: A French term meaning literally "to bleed," _saignée_ refers to the process of bleeding or pulling juice from a tank of red must that is just beginning fermentation. The goal is two-fold. First, the lightly-colored juice that is bled out of the tank produces a rosé. Second, the must remaining in the tank has a higher proportion of grape skins to juice; the resulting wine will be richer and more concentrated.
​


Chuck Rairdan said:


> ... Also, any preference for a fresh press rose' vs. a reconstituted skins rose'? Do you bottle with carbonation or some residual sugar for secondary in the bottle or stabilize before bottling? I know, so many questions, but I am remembering the chilled Gallo rose' from years past and it was delightful in its own right and had a bit of sparkle to it.


I learned recently that typically there is a small amount of co2 in commercial rosé - often not noticeable though. But really there’s no rules. We prefer dry rosé in my house. Dry, chilled, and no noticeable co2 I suppose.


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## CDrew (Nov 25, 2020)

Regarding the saigneé; 2019 I pressed off the skins and tossed the skins back into the red fermentation. And since in the end, I was never super happy with that Mourvedré, that was one of the variables I was trying to eliminate this year. So for 2020 I pressed and let the skins go off to the compost pile (and I switched to Barbera grapes too).

I think @Ajmassa 's "saigneé de parking lot" version is the truer to technique method.

For next year, I want a method that never involves the skins-like a filter in the base of the fermentor and just draw out juice to make an authentic Saigneé. Maybe the PVC pipe with all the holes would work.


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## Chuck Rairdan (Nov 25, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Exactly The rosé technically is just a byproduct of — a technique called saigneé.
> Saignée: A French term meaning literally "to bleed," _saignée_ refers to the process of bleeding or pulling juice from a tank of red must that is just beginning fermentation. The goal is two-fold. First, the lightly-colored juice that is bled out of the tank produces a rosé. Second, the must remaining in the tank has a higher proportion of grape skins to juice; the resulting wine will be richer and more concentrated.
> ​
> I learned recently that typically there is a small amount of co2 in commercial rosé - often not noticeable though. But really there’s no rules. We prefer dry rosé in my house. Dry, chilled, and no noticeable co2 I suppose.


Thank you! I understand the Saignee process now, makes sense. I'm thinking I may try this with a locally sourced Malbec that has good up front character and dilute the juice a little to finish in the 12% range. Also, may try to retain some carbonation with a early 5-mic filtered bottling of a near dry rose. Thoughts?


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## Ajmassa (Nov 29, 2020)

11/23 - 1.011
11/24 - 1.0105
11/26 - 1.008
11/27 - 1.007
11/29 - 1.007

slowing down now. I really don’t wanna make a starter. It’s a ton of work-low probability of working, and such a small amount of wine.

I may just have to add lysozyme to keep from going thru mlf while not preventing yeast from working. 
Other than stirring and keeping temps up- any suggestions to help this finish dry are welcome.
It’s worth noting there’s also a 1/2gal jug fermenting which has been slightly faster than the carboy. That’s at 1.005.


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## CDrew (Nov 29, 2020)

I would gamble on warmth. Heat that stuff up to 80F or more. I'd be getting a big healthy fermentation/starter going now, so that if you need it in 4-5 days it will be booming. Although, what you use for your starter? Can you still get a juice bucket at this late date?

Please post updates. Very interested to see what happens.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 29, 2020)

CDrew said:


> I would gamble on warmth. Heat that stuff up to 80F or more. I'd be getting a big healthy fermentation/starter going now, so that if you need it in 4-5 days it will be booming. Although, what you use for your starter? Can you still get a juice bucket at this late date?
> 
> Please post updates. Very interested to see what happens.


Na No more juice buckets happenin for me. Plus I’d think the SG is already too low (and abv too high) for any potential for a successful starter. I have no idea what I would use though. Maybe just sugar into the wine. I’d risk a portion to try. Got a 1/2gal extra

-I have the pressed cab skins still. loaded with active yeast. 
-I saved the yeast slurry/heavy lees from when I transferred the cab too. Given how slow things were moving all over I figured to save just in case. 
-large packs of ec118 and maybe even some restart specific yeasts. Gotta look

Not sure if any of this stuff could be useful on the rosé at 1.007 tho. First I’m gonna figure out a way to move & heat it higher. Will give it a few days at 80° and monitor progress.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 30, 2020)

CDrew said:


> I would gamble on warmth. Heat that stuff up to 80F or more. I'd be getting a big healthy fermentation/starter going now, so that if you need it in 4-5 days it will be booming. Although, what you use for your starter? Can you still get a juice bucket at this late date?
> 
> Please post updates. Very interested to see what happens.


It’s working.  Trying to keep it mid 80’s° and keep from cooking it. I made a ghetto little “isolated chamber” for the carboys and space heater using some old towels. Function over fashion. Yesterday morning was at 1.007 for 48 hrs. Today it’s at 1.004-1/2. Jug is at 1.003.

hopefully I can get it under under 1.000 quickly because I don’t exactly love having the wine this hot or having this fire hazard for any longer than necessary. Still stirring it up daily too I figure whatever yeast or nutritious aspects remain in it there could only help being mixed into suspension, not hurt.


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## CDrew (Nov 30, 2020)

Wow, some good news! I think you and @crushday are the last ones on the forum with an active fermentation from 2020. But you're not stuck so that is awesome news.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 30, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Wow, some good news! I think you and @crushday are the last ones on the forum with an active fermentation from 2020. But you're not stuck so that is awesome news.


@stickman hasn’t even started yet!


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## Ajmassa (Dec 3, 2020)

Wtf I swear this rosé ferment is like my wife. Doesn’t care what I want or how I try convincing to do something —- just gonna do what they wanna do, when they want, & how they want. And when I say I’m boss, all I get back is a shit-eating grin. 

10/26 - crush
10/27 - yeast at 1.105
11/23 - 1.011
11/24 - 1.0105
11/26 - 1.008
11/27 - 1.007
11/29 - 1.007
11/30 - heated to mid 80’s 1.004-1/2
12/1 - 1.003
12/2 - 1.0025
12/3 - 1.002

Again, Smaller jug is ahead & sorta gives me some foresight for the carboy— which is at 1.001 ish. 

Gonna leave it alone and not check for a week. Will only run the heater occasionally now. Like after a big fight just gotta back off and let her come around on her own, giving as much time as she needs.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 12, 2020)

Well it’s official. Rosé is stuck just short of dryness. She struggled the whole way but still was somehow able to power thru the majority of the sugar. 

Time of death : 1.003 SG

too low sg/too high abv to realistically restart it to finish dry. Been there. Done that. On a 2017 Tuscan at 1.002. Ph adjustment. Rack. Lysozyme. Rack. Rice hulls. Step feeding a starter. Etc etc. It’s a whole lot of work for a very low probability of success. Plus this is such a small amount of wine. Haven’t used the heat pad or anything for about a week and it’s starting to darken up & clear nicely. 

I learned recently that Washington state had an abnormally high amount of sluggish fermentations this year. To the point that even the pros had been contacting Scott’s Lab for advice. My red mountain cab was definitely sluggish. But with some wmt advice & a little extra tlc helped bring it to fully dry. The rosé however lacked a ton of those nutrients the cab had from no time on skins—- probably the main contributing factor. 

It tastes great. Right on par with many commercial rosés I’ve had. Better actually. I just prefer dryer. Which when buying blind off the shelf dry rosé def aren’t the norm. But I’ve got some Malbec rosé dry as a bone I can blend it to help out. Putting both out in the shed for cold stabilization soon. First some lysozyme, so2, and racking. Confident it will be delicious. 

In the pic here is Fall’s rosé on the left- and spring’s on the right for comparison.


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## CDrew (Dec 12, 2020)

Sounds really good. Lysozyme is seriously easy to do. I mixed on a stir plate to avoid clumps and that works great. After that, sulfite to a pretty good level. Maybe 1.5 times protective levels. Are you going to Bentonite? I've got some on order so I'll be exploring that soon. I think a whole pound was under $10 and it uses just a gram or two per liter.

Your Malbec Rosé looks great as is. How does it taste?


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## Ajmassa (Dec 12, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Sounds really good. Lysozyme is seriously easy to do. I mixed on a stir plate to avoid clumps and that works great. After that, sulfite to a pretty good level. Maybe 1.5 times protective levels. Are you going to Bentonite? I've got some on order so I'll be exploring that soon. I think a whole pound was under $10 and it uses just a gram or two per liter.
> 
> Your Malbec Rosé looks great as is. How does it taste?



the Malbec never got lysozyme- went thru mlf- yet is still on point. After CS I still wanna play with acid bench trials. I’ve got a funny feeling a touch of acid will improve it. Plus I just wanna tinker & find out ya know?

used lysozyme once 3 years ago. I just remember it being messy stuff. I will definitely have to read up as if it’s my 1st time. As far as clearing I’m just wingin it. No real plan. Bentonite was not on my radar though. Why specifically suggesting that? I did use it once before. Also messy lol. Still have the leftover. “Speedy Bentonite”. I’m hoping this clears well on it’s own without any additions. The Malbec rosé seemed to clear well. Idk.

I’ve also been thinking about using these rosé’s as an excuse to get myself a whole house filter system actually. Will cross that bridge when I get to it I guess.


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## CDrew (Dec 12, 2020)

Ya-Only that lysozyme by reputation can contribute to protein haze in otherwise clear wines. The Bentonite supposedly prevents that. My plan is Lysozyme, and bentonite sometime when convenient before bottling. At this point, I'm only theoretical here. Will be bentonite savvy within the next month. 

Last year I did add late tartaric acid to my Rosé and it was good. That Rosé is gone now so it worked.

For dissolving the Lysozyme, I put the water on the stir plate, and slowly added the lysozyme powder. No clumps and pretty clean.


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 13, 2020)

Regarding the Bentonite, I had protein haze on my 2019 Viognier and Petite Manseng - the Bentonite cleared 'em right up.


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## CDrew (Dec 13, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> Regarding the Bentonite, I had protein haze on my 2019 Viognier and Petite Manseng - the Bentonite cleared 'em right up.




Did you use the regular bentonite or the processed (and supposedly easier) stuff from MoreWine? I just ordered the standard stuff. It looks like you need to wet it, soak it and then stir in a blender just before use. That sound about right?


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## Boatboy24 (Dec 13, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Did you use the regular bentonite or the processed (and supposedly easier) stuff from MoreWine? I just ordered the standard stuff. It looks like you need to wet it, soak it and then stir in a blender just before use. That sound about right?



I used the 'regular' stuff. Had to stir for quite a while.


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## Booty Juice (Dec 13, 2020)

Beautiful color. I don't see them needing anything except 4 to 6 months of time and low temps unless you wanna alter the flavor. Once bottled, those aren't gonna last long - they'll be gone before next harvest.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 14, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Did you use the regular bentonite or the processed (and supposedly easier) stuff from MoreWine? I just ordered the standard stuff. It looks like you need to wet it, soak it and then stir in a blender just before use. That sound about right?


By’ processed’ you mean they sell a bentonite premixed slurry? The stuff I got is EC Kraus ‘Speedy Bentonite’ dry mix bought locally seen in the pic. If I did end up with a haze I have options.

Aside from bentonite I’ve got DualFine (Keilosol/chitosan 2 part package. Aka SuperKleer) , pectic enzyme, and Polyclar 10. Hopefully the lysozyme doesn’t cause a haze but I’m sure one of these would clear it if it did. I like the fact that bentonite is natural. And dualFine since it grabs both the positive & negative charged particles. I used on the batch of Dragons Blood I made. Worked great.
the kit rosé I did few years back included Isinglass as the clarifier. To date I’ve never used a fining agent on any wine from grapes or juice and they’ve all cleared on their own. I would be more than happy to let all these products mentioned continue collecting dust on the shelf.


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## CDrew (Dec 15, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> By’ processed’ you mean they sell a bentonite premixed slurry? The stuff I got is EC Kraus ‘Speedy Bentonite’ dry mix bought locally seen in the pic. If I did end up with a haze I have options.



No to the pre-mix. MoreWine has some interesting options that have Bentonite that compacts more and thus there is less racking loss. And it can be added directly without the hydration step. But which version you use, depends on pH. I just bought the standard bentonite, but may experiment next year. What I bought is a package of wine bentonite additive off the internet from LD Carlson. I'm going to try it and see what happens.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 4, 2021)

Just put the rosé outside for cold stabilization along w/ my with spring rosé. Targeting 3 weeks. Overnight temps hitting the 20’s° just about nightly. I’ll stick my little insulation jackets on them tomorrow after carboy temps have dropped.



Red Mt Cab Rosé 3gal.
Its clearing well for just a couple months old though still has a haze. Never finished dry at 1.003 SG. I like it tho. And a nice contrast to the other dry rosé. Low ph at 3.25. Hit with ~25ppm so2. Hope this didn’t go thru mlf. Will confirm later. It was 3.32ph at crush. Haven’t gotten around to the lysozyme yet. Also I left the lees in. Fgured why not. (took ‘before’ pics to compare diamond fallout. existing sediment is not as thick as it looks in the pics above)





Chilean Malbec Rosé 6gal.
At 8 months its ready to roll. Calling it ‘Malbec Blanc’. Dry, crystal clear seen above, co2 free, & accidentally malic acid free. Ph at 3.52. After CS i may or may not tinker with acid adjustments. TBD. Also may pop my whole house filter cherry before bottling.

Got a jug of a blend of the 2 as well. And I just realized I forgot to taste them before i put them out actually. I should do some sippin tonight.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2021)

Just checked on the rosé’s, now a week into CS, and the tartrate fallout is impressive. The malbec rosé had barely a dusting of sediment beforehand while the Red Mt rosé went in with a thick layer on the bottom. 

The malbec fallout is building up quite a bit on the bottom as well as collecting in the sides. also when i shine a light at the right angle it looks like i mixed a cup of glitter into it! The sparkle is Visually pleasing to see but unfortunately doesn’t transfer to a still image. 
Red Mt rosé starting to collect a layer of tartrate now too. You can see it resting atop the other sediment, just not as much as the malbec. At crush the Red Mt cab had ideal numbers. no adjusting. The malbec i however did add tartaric. I assume this is the reason for more substantial tartrate dropping out. 

Both wines are at 37° currently.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 22, 2021)

Brought the rosé’s inside last night after 18 days of cold stabilization. They were sitting at 39°. The 9month old malbec had significant tartrate drop out. crystal clear. 
3 month old red mountain cab had good bit dropout too. still hazy. Gonna rack off the sediment and hoping it clears up nicely like it’s counterpart. then lysozyme. then adjust/blend if needed. Tho after quick tastes lasts night i don’t believe i’ll be messing with them. Both pleasant. Both unique.


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## CDrew (Jan 22, 2021)

And you were worried about too much color. From here it looks text book perfect.

39F is nice. I could never get mine below mid 40s.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 22, 2021)

CDrew said:


> And you were worried about too much color. From here it looks text book perfect.
> 
> 39F is nice. I could never get mine below mid 40s.


i’ll probably always be worried about that tbh since my 1st two attempts are plenty dark w/ no skins time. one crushed & pressed right away. One strained in the damn parking lot! An extra couple hours woulda made alot darker i bet. Glad i went this route. (despite the fact it may have prevented the cab from finishing dry)

Kinda funny that my attention has been on these few gallons of rosé and not the main primo wines as the mature- which is a convenient byproduct of making saigneé style rosé i’m finding out. 

The rosé’s are def fun and all that no doubt, but what i’m really excited for are my fall reds
-The red mt. dry ice cold soak/extended ferment cab. Most expensive grapes i’ve ever purchased. high hopes.
-The 1/3 whole cluster/carbonic maceration 50%zin 25%syrah 12.5% muscat 12.5% petite sirah—“FaMiLy red”
exceeding expectations and morphing into something quite amazing tbh.

How’s that late season overstock Barbara coming along btw? If a winner then you NEED to make that a perennial wine!


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## CDrew (Jan 22, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> -The red mt. dry ice cold soak/extended ferment cab. Most expensive grapes i’ve ever purchased. high hopes.
> -The 1/3 whole cluster/carbonic maceration 50%zin 25%syrah 12.5% muscat 12.5% petite sirah—“FaMiLy red”
> exceeding expectations and morphing into something quite amazing tbh.
> 
> How’s that late season overstock Barbara coming along btw? If a winner then you NEED to make that a perennial wine!



I think you have a good handle on your main wines. They will be epic and special. Maybe when bottled in a year or two, we can do a long distance trade. I'd be honored to try either or both.

The Barbera is still hiding in it's 15 gallon keg. I'll rack in a week or three and give an update then. The grapes were so nice and the initial taste was so on point, that I hope I'll be able to pull off a spectacular wine.

The Rose from that even is also aging gracefully and I'll bottle this spring, and hope to drink/share this summer.

I am tasting some of my 2019 Primitivo tonight. It continues to impress. It's young but it's already very good and actually more enjoyable than the 2018 Primitivo. That damn oak thing. It will be hard to get this 2019 to go the distance because I'm afraid we'll drink it up. I need a place to put cases of wine I cant touch for 4 years.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 23, 2021)

Wines are back at room temp ~63°. The 3 gal of cab rosé seems like it has started mlf. Steady flow of tiny bubbles right now. But I planned to rack it off the sediment (good amount of light lees, which i left in there intentionally & tartrate fallout from CS)- before adding lysozyme. 

Haven’t purchased fresh stuff yet. But i do have some from over 4 years ago. Kept in a jar that I wrapped in the lightblocking material it came in. Seems good enough to me. 

Question 1- Is 4 year old lysozyme safe to use?
Question 2 - Before my lysozyme addition- does it make a difference if there’s sediment or not? I’d prefer to rack it off all the junk so it’s not all mixed back into suspension. But since lysozyme requires a racking later- would it make more sense to just leave the sediment in there and rack it off later afterwards to avoid an unnecessary racking ?


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## cmason1957 (Jan 24, 2021)

I don't know if 4 year old lysozyme is good to use or not, but I'd probably give it a try. I think I would leave the lees you currently have there and only rack once. Lysozyme always seems to give a fairly large drop out to me.


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## Jay A (Jan 24, 2021)

Lysozyme can be used as a fining agent in addition to preventing MLF?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 24, 2021)

AJ: have you added sulfite to that rose yet? In addition to the Lysozyme, check the sulfite levels. Even if the Lysozyme isn't working 100%, 50-60ppm of sulfite should at least slow MLF down.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 24, 2021)

AJ, funny you say 4 years, just found this. Of course I can't imagine you kept it at -20 C

4 years

*Storage*/Stability
The product, as supplied, should be stored at –20 °C. When stored at –20 °C, the enzyme retains activity for at least 4 years. Solutions (pH 4–5) remain active for several weeks if refrigerated.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 24, 2021)

Jay A said:


> Lysozyme can be used as a fining agent in addition to preventing MLF?



I don't think that is the primary use for it, but I have noticed that when I use it, lots of stuff gets dropped out of what I would normally think is clear wine.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 24, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> AJ, funny you say 4 years, just found this. Of course I can't imagine you kept it at -20 C
> 
> 4 years
> 
> ...



Well, that is only -4ºF, so it is not out of the question.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 24, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Well, that is only -4ºF, so it is not out of the question.



Yep, our freezer is set at -18 C.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 24, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Well, that is only -4ºF, so it is not out of the question.


was kept at room temp. purchase fall 2017. 3+ yrs old. used anyway. livin la vida loca!


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## Ajmassa (Jan 24, 2021)

Boatboy24 said:


> AJ: have you added sulfite to that rose yet? In addition to the Lysozyme, check the sulfite levels. Even if the Lysozyme isn't working 100%, 50-60ppm of sulfite should at least slow MLF down.


ph at 3.2 and hit with so2 right before CS. chart says 20ppm. i dosed to 30. didn’t check just now tho. not willing to sacrifice 25ml of wine lol. Don’t wanna mess with my perfectly topped up carboy and growler.

Added the lysozyme to the carboy as is. but not too worried. for all i know a little malic acid eaten up could benefit this wine. my other rosé went thru it and is delish


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## Ajmassa (Feb 12, 2021)

clearing well post lysozyme. Doubt i will need any clarifiers. Just gonna rack off the light lees/CS tartrate fallout/lysozyme sediment and leave it be.


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## stickman (Feb 12, 2021)

Nice, I'll have a glass, hopefully it tastes as good as it looks!


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## Jay A (Feb 12, 2021)

That looks great! Think I'm gonna be doing some next year.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 12, 2021)

stickman said:


> Nice, I'll have a glass, hopefully it tastes as good as it looks!



yes sir! will look perfect in a glass on the deck down the shore this summer!
haven’t actually given them a proper taste since CS. Will taste when i rack. Before CS the accidental residual sugar seemed to benefit the wine— and a nice contrast to my dry Malbec rosé. 

The biggest surprise of the ‘20 wines is really my little experimental “family” red wine. The one i did with whole cluster. Field blend of:
zin 50%
syrah 25
petite sirah 12.5
muscat. 12.5

Tasting after pressing it was too much...just everything. Figured would end up a blender wine. Way high abv. tannic. high acid. The backend was like a punch in the face. Jet Fuel. Had a nip about a month ago and was pleasantly surprised to how much it has already transformed. 
And muscat is one hella strong white grape. 2018’s dago red i did 30% muscat and it took over the wine for 2 years. So i bumped it to 12.5%. and beefed up the reds—- and was disappointed I couldn’t even taste any muscat at all after pressing. 
But now i’m happy to see it shining through this otherwise big bold wine- adding a fun complexity. Hard to describe. it’s still very much a baby maker but the Muscat adds a subtle sweet/fruity baseline— which is a staple of our traditional “Family” red Alicante/muscat blend. Looking forward to this one alot.

——eh. i’m looking forward to all of em tbh. They’re like my kids. Each one with its own unique story (stories that nobody cares about but me lol— kinda like showing baby pictures to everyone in the office )


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## Ajmassa (Feb 12, 2021)

Jay A said:


> That looks great! Think I'm gonna be doing some next year.


You should! After doing my 1st one in spring and another in the fall i’m certain i will be making saigneé rosé every year now. Nice to have something for the summer, while also improving the main wine. (and a perfect excuse to add another 100lbs of grapes to my order!)


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## Jay A (Feb 12, 2021)

It's win win. Did you make must adjustments post crush, or roll dice?


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## Ajmassa (Feb 12, 2021)

Jay A said:


> It's win win. Did you make must adjustments post crush, or roll dice?


i had to scroll back the thread till post #10 to refresh my memory lol. 

These grapes came in with very ideal numbers. Rosé ph was 3.2. Brix was a tad high for rosé at 24.8% but i rolled the dice. 
Just strained off the juice in the parking lot and a day later i racked off the sediment that dropped out and pitched yeast. No fancy stuff. Just juice & yeast. 

rosé from spring however i did adjust acid. from 3.6 to 3.4 i think. Luckily the people on this forum steered me in the right direction with that. I was fine with 3.6 until i was reminded that a nice crisp rosé ideal ph is low 3’s.


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## Jay A (Feb 12, 2021)

I posted @11 & missed that, shame on me. Great info on this site, Thanks. Can't wait to try this.


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## CDrew (Feb 12, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> These grapes came in with very ideal numbers. Rosé ph was 3.2. Brix was a tad high for rosé at 24.8% but i rolled the dice.
> Just strained off the juice in the parking lot and a day later i racked off the sediment that dropped out and pitched yeast. No fancy stuff. Just juice & yeast.
> 
> rosé from spring however i did adjust acid. from 3.6 to 3.4 i think. Luckily the people on this forum steered me in the right direction with that. I was fine with 3.6 until i was reminded that a nice crisp rosé ideal ph is low 3’s.



Nice-good info re pH. My 2020 Rose is in Stainless so cant see how clear. I'm pretending it's as clear as @Ajmassa!


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## Ajmassa (May 26, 2021)

Preparing to bottle these 2020 rosé’s finally. Just in time for the summer. I kept up on the sulphites but other then that I didn’t mess with them at all. No adjusting or racking or anything since cold stabilizing and lysozyme. Both are delicious. Malbec is bone dry. The cab got stuck at 1.003 but the residual sweetness still works very well. Nice to have 2 rosés that are very different from each other. As they say— variety is the spice of life!

The 6gal malbec was noticeably clearer than the 3gal cab rosé back then, but I attributed that to the malbec being 6 months older and the cab being just a few months old. Fast forward to now and the 3gal seems to have surpassed the 6 in clarity. Makes me wonder- is the 6 as clear as it should be? Should I use a fining agent or something? Or is it just that a 3gal carboy has a smaller circumference making the clarity appear better than it really is?

I stuck a picture behind the carboys to see how well you could see thru. The difference is substantial—- but then again, does it really matter? Would you attempt to clear this up more or do you think it’s ready for the bottle? I’m torn. I do have multiple types of clarifies on hand. On its own the malbec looks perfectly clear ...standing next to the cab, not as much. 

Speaking of the bottle— I sprung for some fun styles for these instead of the boring old Bordeaux type I always use. Got clear burgundy style for the cab and taller “hock style” for the malbec.


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## CDrew (May 26, 2021)

Great clarity. Congratulations.


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## sour_grapes (May 27, 2021)

I agree that one is clearer than the other. I doubt anyone will care! The Malbec is certainly "clear enough."


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## Booty Juice (May 27, 2021)

The color is fantastic on both of those Rose’s.

I only ever fine grape wine with egg white, and only then to tame a tannic beast. Don’t know what fining products you have, but I wouldn’t trade losing tannins (precious little in Rose’s) for a slightly more clear wine.

That wine looks awesome.

GREAT choice on the bottles.


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## Ajmassa (May 27, 2021)

Booty Juice said:


> The color is fantastic on both of those Rose’s.
> 
> I only ever fine grape wine with egg white, and only then to tame a tannic beast. Don’t know what fining products you have, but I wouldn’t trade losing tannins (precious little in Rose’s) for a slightly more clear wine.
> 
> ...



I’ve got a bunch on the shelf actually. 
bentonite
dual fine (keilosol/chitosan) never used
pectin enzyme
polyclar10 also never used

all collecting dust. Never really had to bother tho since i’ve been exclusively making red wine. Clarity hasn’t ever been an issue. After so long the wine has always just been good, never appearing like it lacked clarity. 

but i had some tunnel vision and totally forgot about potential byproducts. sometimes a fresh set of eyes is needed when venturing out of normal lane. 

Only reason it’s even a thought is because how surprisingly crystal clear the cab ended up. 



sour_grapes said:


> I agree that one is clearer than the other. I doubt anyone will care! The Malbec is certainly "clear enough."


lol. this is a fact. they will most definitely not care!



CDrew said:


> Great clarity. Congratulations.


the rosé seed really took root in that “closing the commercial/homemade gap”
thread by @NorCal. And as i was cutting my teeth on rosé wine last year you and many others were there with me every step of the way offering advice & support. much appreciated. i lean on this forum a lot. probably too much lol.


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## CDrew (May 27, 2021)

I hear you. Rosé is pretty great for a home wine maker. It's a great biproduct, simple, ready early, wives like it, and it tastes great even to your "non-wine" drinking friends(though who has those?-LOL). I mean, how cool is it to have 2020 wine that is great to drink right now? I'm going to double production this year!

@Ajmassa looking forward to our long distance swap!


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## Ajmassa (May 27, 2021)

CDrew said:


> I hear you. Rosé is pretty great for a home wine maker. It's a great biproduct, simple, ready early, wives like it, and it tastes great even to your "non-wine" drinking friends(though who has those?-LOL). I mean, how cool is it to have 2020 wine that is great to drink right now? I'm going to double production this year!
> 
> @Ajmassa looking forward to our long distance swap!



a small byproduct of improving the base wine but i end up dedicating all my focus on 3gal lol. while the other 20+gal gets some age. which i Got some oak for when i picked up bottles. french med+ and american med. for the fall wines- a Red mt cab and the dago red. Just gotta decide which gets which and drop ‘em in. 

Def looking forward to a swap. Always prefer sharing with fellow winemakers than my typical peanut gallery.


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## NorCal (May 28, 2021)

Awesome clarity! Rose is an excellent byproduct of making a better red. Congrats!


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## Ajmassa (May 31, 2021)

‘20 Dry Rosé & ‘20 Sweet Rosé
in the bottle 

Now headed to great adventure with the fam. Holiday crowd, long lines and roller coasters with a pinched nerve in my back. Can’t wait


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## Ajmassa (May 31, 2021)

Six Flags was a horrible idea. just like i said it would be. I voiced my opinion, was disregarded....but i digress. 

I think the entire state had the same idea as us. We couldn’t even get near the parking lot! So we called an audible, hung a U-turn and hit up America’s 1st zoo for the day. Had a blast and was gorgeous weather. Been a long long time since we were there. 

And no zoo visit is complete without stopping by the infamous Massa the gorilla. He was the worlds oldest gorilla & known for being quite animated. A famous gorilla with our name who threw his poop at people? yeah he was basically a legend to my brothers and I growing up. lol. And I was happy to retell the stories i was told so the legend may continue. 
Was a Great day. And ending it with a fine glass of rosé and Sixers playoffs. Couldn’t even make it 24 hours after bottling before diving in lol.


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