# Noob questions



## AlphaGrayWolf (Feb 27, 2020)

I am starting my first try at real wine from berries - a 1 gallon batch (actually ~1.25). I am going to use 1118 and since I read that one packet is enough for 5 gallons, should I just use 1/4 packet? I tried a batch from juice a while back, using a different yeast, and used the whole packet. There was a ton of yeast left in the bottom and took a while to clear. Would using less yeast reduce the clear time? Also, should I do primary with the lid tightly on the bucket or loosely?

Thanks in advance!












Start Of Batch 02-27-20



__ AlphaGrayWolf
__ Feb 27, 2020



Ingredients mixed and ready to set, day 1 02-27-20

















Berries



__ AlphaGrayWolf
__ Feb 27, 2020



1st batch with fruits - berries used


----------



## Scooter68 (Feb 27, 2020)

Yes, 1/4 of the packet should be fine. Too much won't create more lees, there's only so much food for them to eat and multiple with so when the job is finished so are those little yeasties.
I would cover it with a towell and tie the towell down with a cord/string/yarn/rubberband
Best way to help it clear is to add your pectic enzyme now, before you start fermentation.
By the way Blueberry tends to be very acidic so DO NOT add any acid unless for some reason the pH is over 3.6

Keep in mind that even that one smallish bag of Blackberries will dominate over the blueberry taste. If you can, I would go straight blueberry and see how that tastes first. You have plenty of time to do a blackberry batch separately and blend the two later. I love blackberry wine but blueberry in it's own right is pretty awesome.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Feb 27, 2020)

Cover it with a towel for the length of primary fermentation? I've added PE as well as acid blend, yeast nutrient, and Campden per instructions in recipe book that came with kit. Tomorrow I add yeast. I read that about blackberries so that's why I went with only 20% blackberries in the mix.

Actually here is what I used:
4 lb. blueberries, frozen
1 lb. blackberries, frozen
14 cups water
2.5 lbs sugar
1/2 tsp acid blend
1/2 tsp pectic enzyme
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient
1 campden tablet

As of right now, 5.5 hours after starting, SG is at 1.090 - I am guessing that might go up before I get to adding the yeast (which I will test again prior to doing so)


----------



## Scooter68 (Feb 28, 2020)

*Check your pH *- Biggest reason blueberry wines fail to start fermenting is too much acid. I've had a couple down at 3.18 before fermentation. They fermented OK but many folks report issues starting a blueberry ferment and almost every time it comes back to the must being too acidic.

Yes, A good rule of thumb is to get your SG pretty close to where you want it. Leave it overnight then check it again after 12-24 hours.

A good starter mix also helps a ferment get off to a solid start. 
I normally use:
2 oz water warmed so it's very warm but NOT too hot to put on the inside of your wrist. (100 - 110 max)
1 oz room temperature must
1/8 tsp yeast nutrient)
1/3 of 1/8th tsp of Fermaid (I know that's an odd measurement but say a dash is really ambiguous and probably too much)
Stir well
Add Yeast
Cover and let sit until it starts to foam up. Most times I get 6 oz glass 3.4 full with the foaming mixture in 30 mins.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Feb 28, 2020)

Ok, I ordered a ph tester to test it, should still be able to pitch yeast today.


----------



## Scooter68 (Feb 28, 2020)

Remember that once fermentation starts, pH measurements are of no use unless the fermentation fails to start. The fermentation generates a lot of acid. (Imagine a initial pH of 3.2 dropping down to 2.98 - that sort of change. 
None-the-less a digital pH tester is, for beginners and those with less sensitive tongues, almost as important as the hydromenter. Paper test strips are pretty much worthless with dark or red wines such a you making. They only work with white and very light colored wines and then just get you in the ball park. I know - I've tried to us paper test strips and after half a dozen tries they now just sit in my box of supplies.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Feb 29, 2020)

Ok, I pitched the yeast last night and I am thinking there may be a leak in the lid seal somewhere, because although I can see the head on the must when I open it, the airlock water goes down only so far and holds. I am assuming this is because of the fruit as opposed to starting with juice, which fires off like a bandit when yeast is pitched? Also, I am confused - I see YT vids using both airlock and tight lids as well as vids using only a towel during primary. What are pros/cons of each?


----------



## Ajmassa (Feb 29, 2020)

AlphaGrayWolf said:


> Ok, I pitched the yeast last night and I am thinking there may be a leak in the lid seal somewhere, because although I can see the head on the must when I open it, the airlock water goes down only so far and holds. I am assuming this is because of the fruit as opposed to starting with juice, which fires off like a bandit when yeast is pitched? Also, I am confused - I see YT vids using both airlock and tight lids as well as vids using only a towel during primary. What are pros/cons of each?



Some people take comfort in seeing the bubbler active. But snapping the lid tight can be a hassle removing it to stir multiple times a day. A towel or a loose lid is nice for easy access and still keeping bugs out. Otherwise the decision is completely at the winemakers discretion. You don’t need to avoid o2 until later on after fermentation and co2 has dissipated


----------



## pgentile (Feb 29, 2020)

You got the right yeast for your first batch. As was mentioned before 1/4 packet will be fine. Whole packet fine too.

With wine, like @Ajmassa says, loose lid or towel is fine through primary fermentation. 

On any subsequent blueberry batches consider grape concentrate instead of straight water and sugar.

Blueberry wine gets really good after 8-10 months of aging. 

Good luck


----------



## montanarick (Mar 1, 2020)

I ferment my whites in a carboy with an airlock. For reds I ferment in an open container with the lid set loosely on top - fermenting cap lets me know what's going on


----------



## BernardSmith (Mar 2, 2020)

If you pitched one quarter pack of yeast, OK, but a) you really cannot over-pitch yeast (unless you dump a kilo of yeast into a gallon carboy) and you can cause the yeast stress if you pitch too little but b) you really need to be careful that the pack you opened remains bone dry and does not become a magnet for bacteria which might then affect the flavors that your "yeast" will produce when you take some more from the pack for any next batch of wine.


----------



## Tom Miller (Mar 2, 2020)

Yeast is cheap enough that I would not risk keeping an open packet.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 3, 2020)

I pitched maybe half a pack, thinking I am going to start a batch from grape juice as soon as Primary done on this batch, will use the rest in that batch. Sealed in ziploc bag


----------



## Scooter68 (Mar 3, 2020)

Use what you need from the yeast packet, Fold it down, put a clothespin or paper clip on it, put it in zip lock bag in the fridge. Pretty low chance of bacteria that way and why waste yeast?


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

Wow, only 6 days and SG .990... ph 2.97 I guess it's time to rack to 2nd...


----------



## Scooter68 (Mar 4, 2020)

Sounds great - pH is reasonable given lots of CO2 is still present and SG is certain sign of fermentation completion. Rack off the lees into a carboy, Dose with K-Meta and let the aging begin.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

Secondary


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

K-Meta again?


----------



## Scooter68 (Mar 4, 2020)

"Secondary" refers to that period of time when fermentation occurs slowly - Some folks consider that to be the point where the SG hits somewhere between 1.020 and 1.010 - they refer to that as secondary. The other fermentation is MLF (Maloactic Fermentation) - not commonly done or needed with Blueberry/Blackberry wines.
Fermentation of your wine is finished .990 is about as low as it goes. 
K-Meta is added once the fermentation is over to prevent spoilage while you age the wine of if you are going to bottle it now and age it in the bottle. I would simply recommend aging it for at least 6-9 months. I have rushed a blueberry wine (My 1sdt batch) and it was Ok at 4 1/2 months but at one year it was a totally different taste - far better.

Looks good. 

If you have space you can put that bottle into the fridge and it will settle more quickly so it will be ready to use to top off in 3-6 weeks when the main carboy sediment has settled out. Most often I rack to the carboy and rack once more in 3-6 weeks once the majority of the sediment has dropped out. More will drop out over the next 2 months after racking at 3-6 weeks but I just like to get it away from the sediment as soon as possible. My personal belief is that the berries have given your wine all the good they can give by now and it's time for the berry pulp and sediment to go away. Others approach it differently but that's the thing about wine making - many ways to make good wine. 
So My racking routine looks like this on a time scale:

1) Fermentation 3 days to 4 weeks in a bucket- Rack to carboy if things slow and No more foam forming at 1.010 or lower
2) When SG stabilizes (3 days no change in SG) anywhere below 1.000 rack again into another carboy and add K-meta
3) After fermentation is over wait 3- 6 weeks for most sediment to drop and rack into a fresh carboy - NO -Meta needed.
4) Rack at 3 months from end of fermentation.
5) Repeat racking every 3 months and add K-Meta each time.
6) Since I end up back-sweetening most wines I rack again at about 10-11 months from end of fermentation (Assuming the wine has fully cleared) At this racking I add the K-meta and K-Sorbate to stabilize.
Wait 2-3 weeks then bench trials to back-sweeeten.
7) Bottle after back-sweetening. (OR wait 7-10 days to allow back-sweetened wine to drop any 'surprise sediment/crystals then bottle)

Goal, if all goes well is to bottle at 12 months +/- 2 weeks _IF the wine is clear. _


----------



## Ajmassa (Mar 4, 2020)

@Scooter68 has you covered pretty well it seems. An easy tip to remember racking schedules is by the 3-3-3 method. 

directly after fermentation and wine is moved from the bucket into glass—-
just remember “3-3-3”

Rack in 3 days
Then rack in 3 weeks
Then rack in 3months concurrently

Plenty of wiggle room here too. But it’s a nice default to eliminate confusion. 
[Copywrite @salcoco]


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

There is still a lot of activity, if it is done fermenting. Also a whole lot of sediment, especially in the wine bottle.View media item 4741


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

https://i.imgur.com/zuQ8hpt.mp4


----------



## Scooter68 (Mar 4, 2020)

Yes even after fermentation finishes there is a lot of CO2 gas being released - typically you will see lots of fine bubbles.
As to the smaller bottle - Assuming you filled that last, that bottle has a the larger part of the lees/sediment. That's OK - Chill it down and it should start to clear quickly. Look for some smaller glass bottles. The Kombucha Tea bottles (Glass ones) 16 oz I believe, make great extra storage containers. Also the ones I've found at our recycling center have the same size lid as the 1 gallon carboys.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Mar 4, 2020)

I have the smaller bottle just to top off with after all the racking is done and bottling starts - I plan on giving it 2 months and see how it is and then rerack into another carboy and then let it sit until maybe Thanksgiving or so and then try bottling. I am guessing I will have to backsweeten, since I don't like dry wines - possibly with grape juice. I can't fit them in the fridge, the best I could do is outside, maybe in the garage


----------



## Scooter68 (Mar 4, 2020)

Yeah garage will work for now. Better settling in colder conditions but it also slows the aging process so just do it for a month at most.

By Thanksgiving you should have a very decent wine to enjoy. 
As far as back-sweetening - Yes, that will bring back the flavor too so yes.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Jul 23, 2020)

2nd Racking done tonight - topped off with Arbor Mist Merlot Blackberry and set in closet to finish. Not tasting much of the berries, still @ .990 @73 degrees. Was sitting all this time on my kitchen counter, so exposed to probably more like than optimal. Wine was definitely clear. Dry, but not bitterly. May not backsweeten, remains to be seen after it sits until Christmas or so. Added Campdan tab and stabilizer at this racking.


----------



## Scooter68 (Jul 23, 2020)

A little back sweetening will probably bring back a lot of flavor and it doesn't have to go so far as to make it "Sweet." If you like dry wines you can stop short of 1.00 with back-sweetening and that would probably give you more flavor. BUT as you said - that can wait until after Christmas at least. Let all the CO2 dissipate and the sharp 'edges' round off.
_Congrats on a successful ferment!!_


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Jul 25, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> A little back sweetening will probably bring back a lot of flavor and it doesn't have to go so far as to make it "Sweet." If you like dry wines you can stop short of 1.00 with back-sweetening and that would probably give you more flavor. BUT as you said - that can wait until after Christmas at least. Let all the CO2 dissipate and the sharp 'edges' round off.
> _Congrats on a successful ferment!!_


Thanks! Now I want to start another batch, maybe some good red. Thinking about stepping up to 5 or 6 gal batch, and buying grapes online? Not sure of the cost though, may be an issue.


----------



## Scooter68 (Jul 27, 2020)

AlphaGrayWolf said:


> Thanks! Now I want to start another batch, maybe some good red. Thinking about stepping up to 5 or 6 gal batch, and buying grapes online? Not sure of the cost though, may be an issue.


I'd post a new message thread with that as a question. Include what part of the country you live in. Many folks on here do grape wine, not me but many others do and they can tell you what places might be near you where you might be able to drive and pick them up or get shipping cheaper. Ask also about how the grapes or grape juice is prepaired. Juice from grapes is often innoculated with a yeast already and as soon as it's thawed out it will begin to ferment. Much more about them but I'm not the best source for that info.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Jul 29, 2020)

Another question regarding this batch - since I have added the stabilizer at this last racking - after 4 months of secondary - can I cap my gallon jug for aging or do I still need to keep the airlock?


----------



## Scooter68 (Jul 29, 2020)

I would ALWAYS have some sort of airlock or bung that allows pressure to be released. Plenty of stories of folks being away for a few weeks or not checking for a week or two only to find that at sometime since they last checked - the bung/stopper popped off and their wine has been exposed to the air and possibly fruit flies getting into their wine. There are some who use a silicone bung that has a pressure relief device built in (Gasses Out but not in I think) or just maintain an airlock. The latter takes weekly or bi-weekly checking but that's just part of the process.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Jul 29, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> I would ALWAYS have some sort of airlock or bung that allows pressure to be released. Plenty of stories of folks being away for a few weeks or not checking for a week or two only to find that at sometime since they last checked - the bung/stopper popped off and their wine has been exposed to the air and possibly fruit flies getting into their wine. There are some who use a silicone bung that has a pressure relief device built in (Gasses Out but not in I think) or just maintain an airlock. The latter takes weekly or bi-weekly checking but that's just part of the process.


How will I know when it's ok to bottle then? That's the confusing part. I thought that after it is stabilized it's ok to cap or cork.


----------



## winemaker81 (Aug 4, 2020)

I'm using vented bungs once fermentation is done and the wine is clear. It saves having to check fluid levels in the airlock. Until fermentation is done and the wine is clear, I want to see if there is activity, hence the airlock.

If the wine is completely stable (SG below 0.998 and no CO2 escaping) it should be safe to cap, but oddly enough, it appears most of us are too paranoid to do that. Yet we'll take that same wine and bottle it. Nope, this does not make sense.

When to bottle? When the wine is stable and clear. I typically wait 2 weeks after the last racking to ensure no sediment is dropping, and given my normal practices, there was at most a fine layer in the bottom of the carboy before the last racking.

Sediment in the bottle ruins the appearance. A small amount doesn't affect the taste, but it muddies the wine when you pour it. A lot of sediment CAN negatively affect the flavor, and it looks really ugly when poured.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Aug 4, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> I'm using vented bungs once fermentation is done and the wine is clear. It saves having to check fluid levels in the airlock. Until fermentation is done and the wine is clear, I want to see if there is activity, hence the airlock.
> 
> If the wine is completely stable (SG below 0.998 and no CO2 escaping) it should be safe to cap, but oddly enough, it appears most of us are too paranoid to do that. Yet we'll take that same wine and bottle it. Nope, this does not make sense.
> 
> ...


Ok, so at 2nd racking wine was at .990 SG and no activity, clear. I plan on back-sweetening to 1.000 (just as a guess). I plan on doing this in a week or two.


----------



## winemaker81 (Aug 5, 2020)

0.990? Can't get lower than that.

I used to bench test, e.g., take a small amount of wine and gradually sweeten it until I'm satisfied, then do the math to figure out how much to sweeten the full batch. Sweeten the full batch in stages, tasting in between, to ensure you don't over-sweeten. This works well, unless you mess up the math.

Nowdays I sweeten the full batch. I make sugar syrup (boil 1 cup water, gradually stir in 2 cups sugar, boil (stirring) until clear; cool to room temp). For a 5 gallon batch, I add 1/4 cup syrup, stir really well (I use a drill-mounted stirring rod, but don't make the wine foam), and taste. Repeat until I think it needs _just a bit_ more, then stop.

For a 1 gallon batch? I'd probably add 1 or 2 Tbsp at a time. And you won't need as much sugar syrup -- I'd cut the above recipe in half, maybe in quarter (1/4 cup water, 1/2 cup sugar). Sounds like you want to lightly sweeten, so you won't need much syrup to hit that goal.

Use caution when sweetening ... it's much easier to add more than take some out.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Aug 5, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> 0.990? Can't get lower than that.
> 
> I used to bench test, e.g., take a small amount of wine and gradually sweeten it until I'm satisfied, then do the math to figure out how much to sweeten the full batch. Sweeten the full batch in stages, tasting in between, to ensure you don't over-sweeten. This works well, unless you mess up the math.
> 
> ...


Exactly the advice I was looking for, thanks!!! And just ordered more blueberries for another try, this time instead of 4 lbs. blueberries and 1 lb. blackberries, going to try 8 lbs of blueberries with less water. Experimenting is fun!!!


----------



## Scooter68 (Aug 5, 2020)

AlphaGrayWolf said:


> Exactly the advice I was looking for, thanks!!! And just ordered more blueberries for another try, this time instead of 4 lbs. blueberries and 1 lb. blackberries, going to try 8 lbs of blueberries with less water. Experimenting is fun!!!


Your more is better for blueberries should give you much better wine. I would caution about going to 8 lbs - I know this sounds crazy but with blueberries the acidity can get really strong at that amount. Blueberry wine is an annual thing for me - (Or more often if I find we have horded too many berries from our bushes. ) Anyway, you can try 8 but I've gone to somewhere between 6-7 lbs per gallon. The water addition is still small at that point and can mostly come from a simple syrup. Just allow for higher lees volume with the greater amount of berries. Blueberries are pretty good about breaking down and leaving less lees than some fruit but with 7-8 lbs per gallon you are going to have a pretty significant amount of lees. I'd start at about 1 1/3 gallons of must per gallon of finished wine you aim for. If you have 'extra' you can always hold that out for topping off as you go.

Good luck with the blueberry wine, and all the rest of course.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Oct 23, 2020)

Ok, boys and girls - after 3 months of aging, finally back-sweetened today with 2 tsp. simple sugar after doing a degassing just to make sure. Will let that sit a while and test to see how it turns out - maybe a month or so, unless any reason I should let it go more. Big decision is whether to bottle into 750 ml. or just keep in gallon carboy with screw top.


----------



## BernardSmith (Oct 23, 2020)

Two teaspoons of simple sugar (is that 1 teaspoon of sugar dissolved in 1 teaspoon of water?) You might want to taste the wine to see if it is as sweet as you want it. To me back sweetening might mean adding 4 oz of sugar dissolved in either wine or water. Four ounces of sugar will raise the gravity of a gallon by about 10 points and if your wine was at say 1.000 then it would be at 1.010 and that is semi sweet (though how sweet will depend on the level of acidity and alcohol in the wine). BUT while I tend to ASSUME that a very dry wine or mead will need about 10 points of sweetener, bench testing is always the best approach. (in other words, if 4 oz is my default, I might add to 20 ml enough sweetener to be equivalent of 2, 3, 4, 5 (even 6 oz) and if the test suggests that the best option for THIS wine is between 2 and 3 oz, then I repeat the process adding the equivalent amount of sugar to each identical sample, of say, 2.2, 2.4, 2.6 and 2.8 oz (I still have some of the 2 and some of the 3 oz sample... and I see which hits the "sweet spot" (pun very much intended!)


----------



## winemaker81 (Oct 23, 2020)

AlphaGrayWolf said:


> finally back-sweetened today with 2 tsp. simple sugar


My first take was that's a tiny amount of sugar ... but I used 1/4 cup in 5 gallons, which is roughly 1.8 tsp/gallon, so your amount makes sense, at least to me. It reduces the bitter and/or astringent flavor without making the wine too sweet.



AlphaGrayWolf said:


> Big decision is whether to bottle into 750 ml. or just keep in gallon carboy with screw top.


The problem with the gallon jug is oxidation, unless you drink a lot faster than I expect. I suggest moving to smaller bottles.

A friend bottled in gallon jugs -- his cellar had "walls" formed from 4 count cases of gallon jug boxes. When he needed wine, he grabbed a jug and decanted into 4 quart bottles.

I buy jug wine in 4 liter jugs for cooking, and keep the bottles for wine making. My habit is to decant into 5x 750 ml and 1x 375ml screw cap bottles.

While I don't generally recommend screw cap bottles for storage, it does work. If you go this route, after bottling turn each bottle upside down. If it doesn't leak, you're good. If it does leak, move the wine to a different bottle and recycle that one.


----------



## Scooter68 (Oct 23, 2020)

Agree with the 750 bottle process. If you started with 5 gallons and you put it in 1 gallon/4 liter containers you will either be out very quickly or have some oxidized wine by the time you finish each gallon carboy out.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Oct 24, 2020)

BernardSmith said:


> Two teaspoons of simple sugar (is that 1 teaspoon of sugar dissolved in 1 teaspoon of water?) You might want to taste the wine to see if it is as sweet as you want it. To me back sweetening might mean adding 4 oz of sugar dissolved in either wine or water. Four ounces of sugar will raise the gravity of a gallon by about 10 points and if your wine was at say 1.000 then it would be at 1.010 and that is semi sweet (though how sweet will depend on the level of acidity and alcohol in the wine). BUT while I tend to ASSUME that a very dry wine or mead will need about 10 points of sweetener, bench testing is always the best approach. (in other words, if 4 oz is my default, I might add to 20 ml enough sweetener to be equivalent of 2, 3, 4, 5 (even 6 oz) and if the test suggests that the best option for THIS wine is between 2 and 3 oz, then I repeat the process adding the equivalent amount of sugar to each identical sample, of say, 2.2, 2.4, 2.6 and 2.8 oz (I still have some of the 2 and some of the 3 oz sample... and I see which hits the "sweet spot" (pun very much intended!)


No, that's 1/4 cup sugar dissolved in 1/8 cup water, then measured out by tsp.


----------



## AlphaGrayWolf (Oct 24, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> Agree with the 750 bottle process. If you started with 5 gallons and you put it in 1 gallon/4 liter containers you will either be out very quickly or have some oxidized wine by the time you finish each gallon carboy out.


I started with a 1-gallon batch.


----------

