# Our new home has grape vines.



## Flack1210 (Feb 21, 2019)

My wife and I moved into a home with about 40 established grape vines. I know they need to be pruned over the winter however, everything we have read has been more confusing that helpful. Where should I turn to help me determine what to prune? Thanks in advance!


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## ibglowin (Feb 21, 2019)

Do you know what kind of grapes they are? Where are you located? A bit more info would help out here.


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## salcoco (Feb 21, 2019)

google on line I believe there are good You tube video on pruning. also I believe Winemaker magazine has pamphlet on backyard vineyard that includes pruning as well as other needs for a backyard vineyard.


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## Flack1210 (Feb 21, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> Do you know what kind of grapes they are? Where are you located? A bit more info would help out here.


I'm located in northern Illinois about 5 miles from the Wisconsin border. I have no idea what types of grapes they are. A lot of what I read was specific on different pruning techniques for different varieties of grapes. Is there a specific technique that will be successful for all varieties? I would hate to do something without being properly informed. It is obvious the previous owners put a lot of work into them.


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## ibglowin (Feb 21, 2019)

So your are saying you have now way of contacting them? Have you spoken to the neighbors to see if they knew anything? Chances are they are cold hardy hybrids if they are wine grapes but they could be table grapes also. What type of trellis are they on? Are they even on a trellis?


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## Flack1210 (Feb 21, 2019)

ibglowin said:


> So your are saying you have now way of contacting them? Have you spoken to the neighbors to see if they knew anything? Chances are they are cold hardy hybrids if they are wine grapes but they could be table grapes also. What type of trellis are they on? Are they even on a trellis?


They offered a press and a bunch of carboys alone with a two large tanks with the house, so I'm certain at least most of them are wine grapes. We moved in September first and all of the fruit had already dried so I was unable to identify them that way. I tried to contact them but I got no response. The are between two posts with rows varying between 20 ft and 40 ft. Between the poles are two guide wires with tensioners on them. The grapes appear to be well trained. I will try to contact them again and see if that yields any results.


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## ibglowin (Feb 21, 2019)

Cold hardy grapes usually do best on a TWC or Top Wire Cordon trellis system. So only a single wire per row at about 5" off the ground. That doesn't sound like what you have. Take a look at this article.

https://winemakermag.com/article/1388-backyard-vineyard-trellis-and-training

Look over the different trellis systems and you should be able to identify your trellis system at some point. There are some links to videos on the different trellis systems and pruning. This should give you a start at least. Pruning vines is sort of like giving them a haircut. You don't want to do it too early or they will wakeup and think they need to start growing at the first sign of warm weather only to get bit by a late frost. Find out when your last usual annual frost is and prune about a month before that is usually a pretty safe option. If you can post some pics using the upload a file feature that could also help identify things.


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## KevinL (Feb 22, 2019)

I'm just south and east of you in the western suburbs. Pictures would be helpful if you have them. We might be able to ascertain what kind of system they were using before. You can replicate it this season, and then adjust it as you identify the vines.


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## buzi (Feb 22, 2019)

Agreed with KevinL. pix please. Replication would be the say to go this year. It is about odd that they were shriveled by Sept 1st unless the previous owners let then go and it is dry-rot. Concord would be picked late September or early October whites a few weeks earlier, but they shouldnt have been shriveled...


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## Flack1210 (Feb 22, 2019)

by the time I got around to looking at them they were shriveled. With the move it wasn't till late September that the thought even crossed my mind to investigate. There was one set that had small amounts of white grapes that were similar in appearance to concord grapes. I am certain none of them.were of that variety as this is the only type I have any experience with.


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## Flack1210 (Feb 22, 2019)

Here is a few pictures


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## Flack1210 (Feb 22, 2019)

Few more


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## Flack1210 (Feb 22, 2019)

More


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## Flack1210 (Feb 22, 2019)

Last set


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## Flack1210 (Feb 22, 2019)

Let me know if there is specific stuff I need to take picture's of. Thank you all again for your help!


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## ThreeSheetsToTheWind (Feb 22, 2019)

Sorry I can't help but obviously a lot of work was put into those vines and I'm more than just a bit jealous! Good luck!


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## CabEnthusiast (Feb 22, 2019)

Those are really nice looking grapevines, whoever planted them did a great job setting up the trellis, and I would lean towards hybrids or possibly Cabernet since it is known to be quite cold hardy.


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## KevinL (Feb 23, 2019)

I'm a newbie, but I'll have a go at this.

Looks like you have some vines that are growing on some form of Geneva double Curtain. I see a few rows with cordons that are low and canes that grow upwards (looking like some kind of VSP) and ones with cordons that are high.

If I had to guess since you're in Northern Illinois and they're wine grapes you're looking at Hybrids. I'm going to guess Marechal Foch, just because it's my understanding that it was pretty widely planted. If it is a white concord looking grape, its probably Niagara. 

If it were me I would go with spur pruning. Blue is your trunk and cordons, and black is your 1 year canes coming off of your existing spurs. You're going to prune those back to 1-2 buds depending on how many buds you want on the plant total. Typically the number of buds on the plant is a function of pruning weight. The more you're taking off, the more buds you will leave on the plant total.

Blue is your cordon, Black is your 1 year old canes.




Other forum folks can correct me if I'm wrong here (free advice on the internet, you get what you pay for.) These look like well taken care of vines, so you're fine leaving a good number of buds on the plant. 

When you're done, if viewed from the side it should look like a T. Assuming this is some variant of GDC:








1 year old canes that are growing low from the trunks or cordons should be removed entirely. Don't be timid. When you're done it's going to look like you gave these vines a buzz cut rather than a trip with an inch or two off the top.

This past winter was pretty rough for us. There is a good chance that you've got a bit of cold damage. If things don't leaf out the way you expect after your pruning, don't think that you harmed the plants. It's most likely they were already damaged from the winter. You can check the buds by nipping one off on an area you plan to prune with a fingernail or something. if it's still green and firm, then it's fine. As your pruning I'm sure you'll find some bits that are dead as well.

I'm sure there is plenty I'm missing on this, but this can help get you started.


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## CabEnthusiast (Feb 23, 2019)

KevinL said:


> I'm a newbie, but I'll have a go at this.
> 
> Looks like you have some vines that are growing on some form of Geneva double Curtain. I see a few rows with cordons that are low and canes that grow upwards (looking like some kind of VSP) and ones with cordons that are high.
> 
> ...


I was going to say yeah that does look like it matches, But really the only way to know the vines is to get them DNA tested.


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## Masbustelo (Feb 23, 2019)

Well done KevinL. In Northern Illinois, they are definitely not Cabernet. Could be some Marquette as a possibility. But no way to tell if they produce red or white grapes.


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## Flack1210 (Feb 23, 2019)

I can tell you that I do know all of what is pictures produces red fruit, it also is only from three of the eight or ten rows that we have. In that section of our yard. Previous owners started a new row that seems.to be only a teen years old from what I read in a different section of the property. That is what produces the white fruit. I did the research on table grapes and tell you the white doesn't fit there.


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## Dennis Griffith (Feb 23, 2019)

You did good KevenL. Once you get some leaves on, post some more pics as that can help in narrowing down the varieties.


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## BigH (Feb 24, 2019)

Flack1210 said:


> Let me know if there is specific stuff I need to take picture's of. Thank you all again for your help!



Are there trellis wires running between the cross bars? The cross bars make the trellis system look like Geneva Double Curtain, but I don't think that is what you have. I don't see any wires running between the horizontal cross bars, and the vines look like they were trained to a different system. Also, the cross beams are pretty thin. Not sure those could bear the load of a GDC system.

Some of the pics look like Mid Wire Cordon / Vertical Shoot Position (MWC/VSP) and some look like top wire cordon (TWC). I think the cross bars might be to spread out netting.

H


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## BigH (Feb 24, 2019)

Flack1210 said:


> Where should I turn to help me determine what to prune?



Youtube has a lot of good pruning videos. I like the series by Tom Zabadal. They move pretty slow, but they have lots of good information in them.

A key aspect of pruning is being able to identify 1 year old wood vs older wood. Old wood is thick (> 1/2" usually), dark brown in color, and has rough bark that looks like it is pealing off. It just looks kind of tough looking. 1 year old wood is generally less than 1/2" thick, has a light brown or tan color, and completely smooth bark. This distinction is important because 1 year old wood produces shoots this summer that will have fruit on them. Old wood will produce some shoots, but they typically don't have fruit on them. Old wood serves primarily a structural role, like trunks and cordons. Most of the tangled mess that you see consists of 1 year old wood. These are also known as canes. You will remove about 90% of this material during your pruning. 

Another key thing to know is whether you are doing spur pruning or cane pruning. It took me forever to understand the difference, so I'm not sure I could really explain it all that well. Best too google that. You will probably do spur pruning. 

H


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## Flack1210 (Mar 25, 2019)

Quick update. Finally was able to contact precious owner of our home. The varieties that they remember planting were.

St. Vincent
Marechal foch
Frontinac

They could not tell me exactly what rows they were in, and also said their may be another variety as well. All vines have been trimmed, and treated with a fungicide. Thanks again for all of your advice!


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## cmason1957 (Mar 25, 2019)

I am guessing they really meant - Marechal Foch and Frontenac. That may make it easier to find some information about those grapes.


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## Flack1210 (Mar 25, 2019)

Yeah I don't pay attention to auto correct sometimes that's my fault


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 26, 2019)

Flack1210 said:


> Quick update. Finally was able to contact precious owner of our home. The varieties that they remember planting were.
> 
> St. Vincent
> Marechal foch
> ...


St Vincent is a possible cross of Pinot Noir and Chambourcin but that is not confirmed yet. At least that's what UC Davis told me. So that's pretty cool they also cannot be old vines as the varietal was not discovered until 1973 and was not available until the 1990's for planting.


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## Flack1210 (Mar 27, 2019)

They started building the vineyard 20yrs ago and added on from there.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 27, 2019)

Flack1210 said:


> They started building the vineyard 20yrs ago and added on from there.


Should be good vines because they have a good amount of age on them!


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## Stressbaby (Mar 31, 2019)

So what you need to do if you want to really do this is read up on managing the acid in hybrid grape wines. The issues they deal with in California vinifera don't apply at all...they're adding acid, we're trying to get the acid down. 

You might think seriously about making a rosé. That's what I did from both my Frontenac and Foch last year (first year), it turned out pretty good. I have read of some who have given up making red wine from Frontenac and now just make rosé every year, and it is because of the acid.


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## Flack1210 (Apr 1, 2019)

I appreciate the advice. Just out of curiosity, since I'm new to this. What should I expect from 60 vines if they all produce and average amount of fruit? I know this answer will vary just curious so I can make some sort of plan.


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## Stressbaby (Apr 1, 2019)

I'll take a shot...

If no losses from birds, other critters, rot, insects, I'd plan for at least 10#/vine, on the order of 30 gal of wine. BUT any one of those could wipe you out if not careful. 

My two cents. Others with more years of experience might chime in.


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## BigH (Apr 2, 2019)

Flack1210 said:


> What should I expect from 60 vines if they all produce and average amount of fruit? I know this answer will vary just curious so I can make some sort of plan.



From my 2018 harvest spreadsheet, I tend to get 1 gallon of wine/juice per 14 lbs of harvested fruit. 1 gallons equals 5 750 ml bottles. I have pretty rich soils that produce a heavy crop. Around 15 lbs per vine. I net everything, and work diligently to eliminate other pests. You can probably expect 8 to 12 lbs per vine if the vineyard is in good shape and you protect the crop from birds and critters. That works out to 23 to 34 gallons or 115 to 170 bottles. 

H


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## Newine (Apr 3, 2019)

Don't give up on red with Foch and Frontenac. Research yeast that can help reduce acid like lalvin 71B, monitor ripeness (don't pick too early, check brix and pH to confirm) put through MLF to further reduce acid and towards the end before bottling cold stabilize to drop tartaric acid out and with a bit of oak adjuncts along the way you can make a pretty decent red


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## KevinL (Apr 4, 2019)

So I'm not too far from you. I've got Frontenac, but not Foch. Have you done your pruning yet? Have a picture?

One thing with Frontenac in this area is Black rot. I think you should be prepared to start a spray program to control fungus. Even a few simple applications can save your crop from destruction. I'm not sure what diseases will affect the Foch, but I imagine they're similar.

On the winemaking, I find that I actually have taken a liking to the acidy flavor of the Frontenac. I use oak, 71b and MLF. I


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## Flack1210 (May 22, 2019)

KevinL said:


> So I'm not too far from you. I've got Frontenac, but not Foch. Have you done your pruning yet? Have a picture?
> 
> One thing with Frontenac in this area is Black rot. I think you should be prepared to start a spray program to control fungus. Even a few simple applications can save your crop from destruction. I'm not sure what diseases will affect the Foch, but I imagine they're similar.
> 
> On the winemaking, I find that I actually have taken a liking to the acidy flavor of the Frontenac. I use oak, 71b and MLF. I


I have done..my pruning and will take pictures if you would still like. Some how my notifications have gotten turned off so I just saw this.


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## KevinL (May 22, 2019)

We always like pictures here. If you'd like feedback on what you did we'll take a look.


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