# First time with buckets



## lieu (Oct 17, 2011)

Hello All,
I just got these two juice buckets today from a local veg/fruit market. I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with these particular buckets?
What I do know about these two buckets is that one is a Cab. and the other is a Merlot. The juice is from California and was never frozen. ( I dont know if that makes any difference or not).
What I have done so far is added 1/2 a tsp of k-meta to each bucket to stop any fermentation from the natural yeasts. I am going to add yeast from George and I am also going to add a Cab grape pac to the Cab bucket probably on Wednesday if I get them . I am also going to add oak to both these buckets.


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## ibglowin (Oct 17, 2011)

Nice! Why no grape pack love for the Merlot! You could have added a cab grape pack to it as well. Are these balanced in any way? Did you get any numbers on them yet?


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## Wade E (Oct 17, 2011)

Im sorry but Im not fond of juice bukets myself. Ive found that kits usually come out better. Grapes are the way to go then kits IMO. These buckets require lots of tweaks to get them comparable to the other products. I made a few including that brand and wasnt happy at all. Hopefully you have much better results.


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## lieu (Oct 17, 2011)

Hey Mike,
What I was going to do when I ordered the grape pac from george was get 2 Cab buckets and do a little experiment. 1 bucket with the pac and the other without. I didnt really think about adding a cab pac to the Merlot. I kind of wish I thought of it now. When I picked up the buckets there were no more buckets available so my
plan got squished anyway. As far as balanced the bucket does say that it is "blended and balanced by our oenologists". The numbers on the buckets were Balling 22 Acid .5, and SO2 was 100 ppm. I dropped my hydrometer in both buckets and the cab was 1.090 and the Merlot was 1.080.


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## lieu (Oct 17, 2011)

Hey Wade,
Hopefully I can get a wine that I can half way enjoy. These buckets were only about 55 bucks each so I'm not into them for all that much. It will be fun trying. Any suggestions on any tweaks?
on another note- been wetting any lines lately?


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## ibglowin (Oct 18, 2011)

Well this way you should be able to tell the difference between a bucket with no grape pack and one with. You can always add a pound of the organic red flame raisins from whole foods etc. I think they do improve mouthfeel a good bit. Cost is pretty cheap as well.


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## ibglowin (Oct 18, 2011)

Also some Tancor Grand Cru down the road would help out a bit as well with a nice tannin boost.


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## Wade E (Oct 18, 2011)

I agree the Tancor tannins are a big improvement. Ive never tried the red flame raisins but it should help also. Either that or the grape skin packs.


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## Tom (Oct 19, 2011)

Agree on adding more tannin.
raisins will help with body as well as making a bananna soup.
I do juice buckets and find I like at least 2 cups of med toast oak.


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## lieu (Oct 19, 2011)

Hello All,

Just a few more questions, Mike What do you mean by down the road re: the TanCor Grand Cru.I have never heard or seen anything about this product. Is this something that you add at the end of the process?

I am getting the raisins tomorrow. Should I add the raisins and the Grand Cru? 

tepe, Have you ever had this particular brand before?


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## ibglowin (Oct 19, 2011)

Tancor is a post fermentation finishing tannin so it get added afterwards while your bulk aging. George carries it here.


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## Tom (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes I have heard of them (Regina) I think Running Wolf (DAN) uses them


Raisins should be added while the yeast is working. So primary is OK.


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## lieu (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks guys, Will keep you posted.-Bruce


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## lieu (Oct 20, 2011)

OK Just a quick few question. I am soaking the raisins in H2O right now. Do i throw the raisins in whole or should I crush them at all?

Also, does everyone agree with the directions on theFermax Yeast Nutrient that says 1 tsp per gallon? and how about the directions on the Pectic Enzyme bottle that says .5 tsp per gallon 1 hour before start of fermentation. Thanks in advance-Bruce


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## ibglowin (Oct 20, 2011)

Why are you soaking the raisins? Toss em into the primary! I have done both ways, corse chop and whole either way worked just fine.


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## Tom (Oct 20, 2011)

Ditto!
Just toss them in!


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

Well I added the yeast nutrient and the enzyme last night then added the yeast that I rehydrated as per the instructions an hour later. I added the grape pac and the raisins at this time also. Woke up this am and NOTHING. The must is 72-74 degrees. Should I be concerned? I have seen threads on here were the must is bubbling away 5-6 hrs after pitching the yeast. this has been 11 hrs.


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## Tom (Oct 21, 2011)

Relax


Sometimes it can take 24+ hours to get going. I bet later today it will be going.


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

Phew. Ok I was hoping someone would say somehing to that effect. The kits that I have done in the past have always been bubbling away the next morning.One more question. I have seen some things that say to add oak to primary and some things that say to add to secondary. I have both American and Hungarian cubes from George. Any suggestions.


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## ibglowin (Oct 21, 2011)

Cubes are always added in secondary and or bulk aging time frame as they will be in there for weeks and perhaps months depending on how much oak you want/like. Any oak that gets added in primary is something like an oak sawdust or shavings that will give up the goods in a week or less.


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## Tom (Oct 21, 2011)

Yea I also add oak when aging. Keep in mind juice needs longer to age compared to kits. For reds 12 months, Whites 6+ months.


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## Wade E (Oct 21, 2011)

Som e yeasts ca actually take up to 72 hours to get started.


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

Well, 23 hrs and still nothing. Keeping my fingers crossed. I'm probably being paranoid. I have never rehydrated yeast before but I followed the directions to a tee.


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## ibglowin (Oct 21, 2011)

What yeast did you use?

How long did you rehydrate for?

What was the temp of the rehydration water?

You could have "cooked" the yeast if too hot.

You could have over-sulfited the must.

If you left the yeast in the water longer than 15 min the yeast could have died before pitching.


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

I used Bourgovin 212. I didn't take the temp of the water but it was only Luke warm. I rehydrated for 15 minutes. When I got the buckets on Monday I put 1/2 tsp of k meta per bucket. I whipped the buckets for 7-8 minutes before I added anything last night. I did smell the buckets before I added anything and didn't really smell the k meta.


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

I did get a few extra packets of yeast so I can pitch some more if that might help.


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## Tom (Oct 21, 2011)

After adding meta you need to just lay the lid (no airlock) AND wait 12-24 hours befor pitching yeast.


Do I understand you waited 7-8 min after "whipping" it?


If so the yeast died.


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## ibglowin (Oct 21, 2011)

If you rehydrate yeast you should definitely check the temp with a digital thermometer. It should be ~104 degrees. Luke warm could be much warmer in reality and you could have cooked the yeast.


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

No I added the meta on Monday. Then I let it sit till last night. I used my drill stirred for approx. 7-8 minutes per bucket then let the buckets sit for about 1 hr then added the enzyme. Then I let that sit for approx. 1 hr per the instructions. Then I did the yeast thing.


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## Wade E (Oct 21, 2011)

1/2 tsp? Thats dble what you really wanted to use. Just to be clear how long after sulfiting did you add the yeast?


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

Wade, it was Monday night when I added the meta then last night is when I pitched the yeast. George orginally told me 1/4 tsp but then told me 1/2. He did say to stir must before adding yeast so maybe I didn't stir it enough?


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

Thinking about it I did have the covers on the buckets. Should I have had the covers off maybe.


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## lieu (Oct 21, 2011)

I think I might go home in am when I get off duty and stir the buckets some more then pitch another packet of yeast in each bucket. Would that hurt anything?


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## ibglowin (Oct 21, 2011)

Lids laying loosely on top are OK. They should not be snapped when you are first trying to get things going.


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2011)

Word of advise especially when you have plenty of time on your hands. Make a yeast starter, this way you know the yeast is good. I dont do the rehydrate thing myself. I much prefer the starter or if not that just the sprinkle on top. So you let it sit 4 days after putting the stuff in before adding yeast. Id be careful waiting that long unless it was really cool although seeing that it was heavily sulfited you were safe in this instance.


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## lieu (Oct 22, 2011)

Ok so I went home this am and still didn't have a cap or anything but the grape lax on the bag had floated to the top. Would this mean anything ? I did pitch a package of dry yeast in each bucket. Hopefully this will take. I do appreciate all the help advise and support from you all. Thank you to all.


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## lieu (Oct 22, 2011)

Grape pac in the bag is what that was supposed to say. Lol


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## lieu (Oct 23, 2011)

Hey guys, I pitched more yeast yesterday morning. I just sprinkled it on top. Still nothing. Do you think there is just to much meta in there? I was thinking about stirring each bucket for 15 or so minutes to try and get rid of the excess. I have 2 more packages of yeast that I can pitch after that. Does that sound like a plan. I am beginning to get bummer out.


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## ibglowin (Oct 24, 2011)

Is your yeast expired by chance? If these are not starting SO2 is the only culprit that I could think about 

Perhaps its time for a pack of Lalvin EC1118 the "Terminator" of yeast is in order at this point.


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2011)

If it is sulfite and I believe it is as like I said 1/2 tsp is dble what I ever use and what is recommended. What you really should do is poor from one bucket to another nit being gentle while doing i. This is called splash racking and is the best way to get excess S02 out of your wine and this is also used to help alleviate your wine from H2S problems also along with sulfite. Do this splash racking a few times and make a starter yeast while your doing this and slowly add your must to this a little at a time to get the yeast acclimated to whatever is the problem here.


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## ibglowin (Oct 24, 2011)

Good advice!


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## lieu (Oct 24, 2011)

Hey Guys,
I Checked the SG this am and the Cab was 1.030 and the Merlot was 1.000. I did this twice and got the same results both times. I still didnt see any signs of fermentation, ( at least what I have seen from the kits I have done in the past IE: cap on top of the must,bubbling air lock ect.)I checked the must temp and it was 68/69 degrees so I added a brew belt. 
I talked to I believe it was Joesph today at the Toy Store and he said that I should be fine after I explained to him the story. I asked Joe if he had ever seen a fermentation that you cant really see the fermentation and he said that he has a few times. I came home tonight after work and the Cab was bubbling away but the merlot was not.I am thinking that the lower temp had something to do with not seeing the fermentaton. What do you think? I will check the SG in the am and hopfully it will be a little lower. I will keep you updated. 
Again guys I really do appreciate all the help and advise.Bruce


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## ibglowin (Oct 25, 2011)

Even if you had a fizzy coke type fermentation you should have been able to see it/hear it if you put your head down on the bucket. Once you added the airlock either to the primary or carboy and filled it with sulfite solution you should have seen it bubbling at some point as well unless their was a leak in the system and the CO2 was escaping somewhere else. Seems pretty strange for sure.


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## lieu (Oct 25, 2011)

In the Cab bucket I saw what you could describe as coke type pin point fizz. Very little of it though. I acually thought that was the meta coming out. In the Merlot I didnt really see any of that.
I checked the SG this am and the Cab is 1.020 and the Merlot is .998. I guess its safe to assume that the yeast is still working.
On another note, If I wanted to get some testing supplies what would you suggest that I get first? Would it be sulfite testing equipment?


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## ibglowin (Oct 25, 2011)

The Sulfite test kits are pretty useless IMHO, just not all that accurate. Depends on how much $$$ you want tho throw at this hobby.It can be a big hole if you let it! I would keep it warm and happy for a few more days then stabilize and fine as per directions.


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## lieu (Oct 25, 2011)

Checked the buckets again tonight and still a few bubbles in the airlock. I think that is what I am going to do. " keep it warm and happy for a few more days". 
There is no instructions on the buckets that the juice came in. I was going to let the fermentation finish,rack to a carboy and let it sit for a while. (I dont know how long a while is but????). I do have the oak cubes to put in there at some point also. I was going to only add clearing agents if it did'nt clear on its own. Not really sure what to do about adding more meta when I go to the carboy.


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## ibglowin (Oct 25, 2011)

A simple rule of thumb where you don't rush things but keep them moving along as long as fermentation is progressing normally to dry (0.998 or less) is:

6-7 days in Primary move it all over to Carboy including gross lees
10-12 more days in Carboy to let it completely finish and settle out as much as possible (stir once a day).
Rack day 19-20 if SG is stable 
Degas (keep it warm 72-74 degrees)
Add fining agent if using
Top off carboy with similar inexpensive wine
add sulfite (kits usually come with 5gm packet for 6G of wine)
let it the fines settle out for up to a month then rack again
top off carboy
bulk age for ~ 6mo for a red wine
filter if going to
top off sulfite
bottle!


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## lieu (Oct 25, 2011)

EXCELLENT!! Thank you Mike!!


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## ibglowin (Oct 26, 2011)

Forgot to add the step to remove the grape pack (squeeze the bag) when you transfer to carboy.


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## lieu (Oct 28, 2011)

Hey Guys, Just a little update. The Merlot bucket fermented down to .996 and I transferred to a carboy on Wednesday. 
The Cab bucket's sg on Wed. was 1.012. It is the same today,2 days later. The must temp has been 80 since the 23rd which is 6 days ago. This has been in the primary with the yeast pitched since last monday. I am concerned about this long fermentation time. 
My question for the day is -is this fermentation stuck. shouldnt it have dropped down more in the past two days? should I go ahead and rack to a carboy?- thanks Bruce


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## ibglowin (Oct 28, 2011)

I would rack to glass, that will give it some air. Are you keeping it that warm with a brew belt?


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## lieu (Oct 28, 2011)

Thanks for the advise. It will go the carboy tonight.I'm using a brew plate to keep it that warm. -Bruce


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## Wade E (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah, maybe rack it and maybe give it a pinch of energizer or nutrient.


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## lieu (Oct 28, 2011)

Hey wade, thanks for the reply. Do I literally just add a pinch right into the carboy or should I follow directions on bottle and add a tsp per gallon. I did add fermax nuitrient when I pitched the yeast. Bruce.


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## lieu (Oct 28, 2011)

And should I keep the carboy heated of take it off the heating pad.


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## ibglowin (Oct 28, 2011)

I think you can let it drift down to 73-75 or so. Thats a more typical temp to shoot for except for the first couple of days when it really doesn't need much heat as it will make its own.


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## Wade E (Oct 29, 2011)

I would just add a pinch. You are almost finished so using much more would just be a waste and may leave a taste if too much is added at this stage. I do agree with Mike though that 80* is a little on the high side. Lightly stir the nutrient in but if you have energizer that will work better.


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## lieu (Oct 29, 2011)

OK its in the glass. I added about 3/4 of a tsp for the 6 gallons. I will check the sg in the am. keeping my fingers crossed. Bruce


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## lieu (Oct 30, 2011)

Checked the sg this evening. 1.013. This has been the sg for 4 straight days now. Any suggestions? This should go to dry right? It is in glass right now.


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