# Dizzy's wine journey



## dizzy (Oct 29, 2020)

Finally got my butt in gear. I unexpectedly started two new jobs that had been delayed forever with COVID, and then an additional one I wasn't expecting, in addition to adding a shift at my current job. And then my side career (music) also unexpectedly picked up a bit. Yay? (BTW my nickname is dizzy bc I play the trumpet. Gotcha.)

We tried to go to Procacci's the first day we (bf and I) had free but it turned out we just missed the season. Whoops.

Gino Pinto's- managed to reserve something, then some family stuff came up, missed it, just couldn't get down there in time and they sold it. I couldn't get excited about any of the Italian white juices right now, tho I'd consider something in the future.

Next try! Keystone. They were very patient with me and I decided to go with them once it turned out that indeed they were NOT actually sold out of Riesling. More spendy there, but better quality? One of my new jobs is paying cash under the table, I should be able to max retirement accounts and have savings this year (probs by end Nov), F it.

Ended up with 5 gal of Washington Riesling and 80 lbs of Washington cab sauv grapes which they crushed for an extra couple bucks. So awesome! I had them put it in two 7.9 gal containers which I am super happy I came up with, since I'm weak (he couldn't make it to the shop with me today), and my bf has back issues. Also the sizes of these just perfectly fit into the trunk of my clown car I mean purple Mitsubishi mirage. Once home very easy to carry down to the cellar.

K meta into both, the bf insisted. Used D47 on the Riesling (probs should have planned more, it will be fine) and RC 212 for the cab. I forgot to pickup malolactic and have decided I want to try, these grapes prolly deserve it. Not sure what I'll go with, couple options. Brix for both was right at 21. I realized we didn't have a pHmeter, it's on its way. Cool to adjust even after a day or couple of ferment?

I realize now that maybe I could have gotten more complexity to use a different yeast in each of the 2 cab buckets? Malolactic seems expensive and I'm not sure which one to get, the viniflora ones seem interesting since they are a decent amount, and dried. Probably I should have researched this more first!

It still seems fun and I hope for a good result tho. Excited to start punching down


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## Arne (Oct 29, 2020)

Sounds like you are on your way. Come up with any questions or problems give a shout and somebody will jump in and try and help. Just remember the 3 p's. They are the hard part, patience, patience, patience. Arne.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 29, 2020)

welcome to WMT
Wine is forgiving, ,,, with good juice your flavor may be excellent as is, the basics is have fun with it. ,,, Midwest juice is extremely high in acid so a lot of malo is done here, but I have never needed to go to that technique.
good luck with the wine


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## cmason1957 (Oct 29, 2020)

Welcome to WMT

I would certainly do malolactic fermentation on your Cab Sauv grapes, but not so sure I would do it on the Riesling grapes. I'm not sure it is a normal thing to do for Riesling, doesn't mean you can't do it, but be sure it fits the style of wine you are trying to create. MLF isn't done on many (maybe most) white wines, they tend to be better at much lower levels of acidity to bring out that crispness and fruitiness, which MLF will mostly inhibit.


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## dizzy (Oct 29, 2020)

@cmason1957 Yeah, definitely wasn't going to do the MLF on the Riesling. Part of the reason I wanted to start with a white juice like Riesling (or Viognier, which was what I originally was planning) was that I could keep it simpler as I learn the ropes. Then I saw all those WA grapes in person and said F it, guess I'll give it a go now.

@Rice_Guy definitely my thoughts, same as for cooking- if you start with good quality ingredients, you're probably going to end up with something tasty unless you really do something wild.

Any thoughts on which MLF to go for? Wyeast, White Labs, and Viniflora seem the easiest/quickest to get for me without spending TOO much money.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 29, 2020)

Good deal on not doing MLF on the Riesling. Many folks think white wines are easier, since there are a few less steps, but I always find white wines harder and less forgiving of errors. Oxidation is the biggest flaw I see in most white wines, so being immaculate with your SO2 usage is highly important. Along with fermentation temps, lower is better to keep from blowing off those wonderful flavors.

Which MLF to use, many folks have reported issues using the Wyeast and/or White Labs MLB, both have very low tolerances for any SO2. Yes, they are the least expensive, but use at your own risk. I haven't used the one called just Viniflora, but I have used both Viniflora CH16 and CH35, they both have fairly high SO2 and alcohol allowable. I have been using Enoform Alpha and Beta both with good results. And even though the package says good for 66 gallons, I haven't heard of many folks having good luck with pulling off a small amount for 6 gallons and saving the rest. I think if I were to start over again with MLB, I would innoculate during primary fermentation, rather than what I currently do, which is add after racking off the gross lees, once alcohol fermentation is complete.


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## J. Wesley (Oct 29, 2020)

I have also used Enoform Alpha splitting the package (66 gallons worth) in half and then immediately vacuum sealing the surplus. So far the reserved bacteria has never failed to do the trick on the next batch (knock on wood).


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## NoQuarter (Oct 29, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Good deal on not doing MLF on the Riesling. Many folks think white wines are easier, since there are a few less steps, but I always find white wines harder and less forgiving of errors. Oxidation is the biggest flaw I see in most white wines, so being immaculate with your SO2 usage is highly important. Along with fermentation temps, lower is better to keep from blowing off those wonderful flavors.
> 
> Which MLF to use, many folks have reported issues using the Wyeast and/or White Labs MLB, both have very low tolerances for any SO2. Yes, they are the least expensive, but use at your own risk. I haven't used the one called just Viniflora, but I have used both Viniflora CH16 and CH35, they both have fairly high SO2 and alcohol allowable. I have been using Enoform Alpha and Beta both with good results. And even though the package says good for 66 gallons, I haven't heard of many folks having good luck with pulling off a small amount for 6 gallons and saving the rest. I think if I were to start over again with MLB, I would innoculate during primary fermentation, rather than what I currently do, which is add after racking off the gross lees, once alcohol fermentation is complete.


 I had always been under the impression that the MLF bacteria would start converting sugars if added too soon, that's why it's added in secondary immediately after hydrometer levels out at low... I'm curious why you are considering inoculation in primary.. Not doubting you, just want to understand...
Knowledge is power.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 29, 2020)

NoQuarter said:


> I had always been under the impression that the MLF bacteria would start converting sugars if added too soon, that's why it's added in secondary immediately after hydrometer levels out at low... I'm curious why you are considering inoculation in primary.. Not doubting you, just want to understand...
> Knowledge is power.



Many folks around these parts of the Internet have tested the adding of MLB during primary fermentation, mostly adding when the cap first builds, with very good success. So far, I haven't heard of anyone having any issues with it. Mostly MLF seems to finish very soon after Alcohol fermentation. It seems like a reasonable thing to try. @Johnd, any others who have tried want to jump in and comment.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 29, 2020)

Dizzy, I am not aware of anyone that successfully had a wine go through MLF with the liquid cultures including myself. Quite frankly I'm not sure why they even sell them. I would recommend the least expensive dry culture you can find for your first go round and especially with that small of a quantity. Whether you do CO or sequential inoculation is a personal choice. As Craig said many of the members do "co" with no problems. Personally I like the sequential approach.


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## Johnd (Oct 30, 2020)

NoQuarter said:


> I had always been under the impression that the MLF bacteria would start converting sugars if added too soon, that's why it's added in secondary immediately after hydrometer levels out at low... I'm curious why you are considering inoculation in primary.. Not doubting you, just want to understand...
> Knowledge is power.


I’d always read the same thing, but also some new info and studies that contradicted the sugar eating fear, several warned against it, I did it anyway, never had a single problem or failure of MLF to complete. Study up on it, there are lots of members here who co inoculate. Consider upgrading your MLB to something more robust like CH16, VP41, Alpha, Beta, the WLP stuff has a poor history.


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## dizzy (Oct 30, 2020)

Cool. I decided to go with the CH16. Hopefully here middle of next week (looks like stuff is shipping from PA so hopefully sooner).
Day 3 am the cab is looking awesome, really juicing up and getting some fizz, very fun. It feels like a pet


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## dizzy (Oct 31, 2020)

Also, for anyone interested- managed to get the rough areas these grapes were coming from. They said the WA riesling was from Treveri Cellars (Rattlesnake Hills AVA!) and the WA cab sauv was from grapes from Inland Desert nursery which is real near to Red Mountain AVA, east of Benton City. Maybe they can't call the grapes from that AVA (they offered a separate "Red Mountain" cab) since they aren't from a winery, but a nursery, or there's grapes from other areas in the mix. I did a day touring wineries in that region and I had the best cab of my life there, seemed like a good bet and potential bargain to me.


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## dizzy (Nov 5, 2020)

So my white is down to 0 Brix...still fizzing so I hope it can get all the way to .990 specific gravity.
The red is chugging along, 3 Brix. I added some nutrients earlier this week to both of these. turned the temp back up 2-3 degrees. Hoping to transfer to a carboy in next couple days!

I had a setback since the press I ordered on Amazon they told me a week after I ordered it it's out of stock.
I found one on craigslist but it's cast iron (in very good shape tho, no rust)- is this ok to use or is it going to mess with the taste?


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## winemaker81 (Nov 6, 2020)

Many wines do not ferment down to 0.990. If the SG is 0.996 or less you're fine.

Brix is important prior to fermentation, but once that begins, the alcohol increasingly skews the brix value. By that I mean the brix reading does not accurately indicate the remaining sugar in the must. The SG indicates how close to "done" the fermentation is.

I've never heard of a cast iron press, well, not in modern usage. Make sure it's what you think it is before buying. Also, a small press is ok for pressing a carboy's worth of grapes (~80 lbs). However, if you believe your production will go up, buy a larger press.

I purchased a used #40 press last year, and can process 500-600 lbs of grapes in 2 batches. Until today I had NO idea what #40 meant, but found *this page* which provides information.


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## dizzy (Nov 9, 2020)

So! Exciting news, we pressed and racked to a carboy yesterday. We ended up not getting the press and did it by hand- each 40lb bucket at a time. I held a mesh fruit bag he had left over from making melomels over a bucket and he poured in the grapes. Poured out the free run juice, and then squeezed- first using a cleaned gallon jug to press down, then we said F it and did it by hand. We filled the 5 gal carboy right almost to the top and had a liter left over to put in the fridge. Seems like a good amount out of them. I tied up the mesh bags and then popped them in a freezer bag. Hoping to use with an Australian pail when they come out in a month or two, probably Shiraz. They still actually had a decent amount of juice in them, if we had a proper press we would have gotten it, but since I will use them as a grape pack, NBD.

The cab sauv tastes surprisingly good right now. Very, very cherry flavor. Not crazy tart. We added 1.5 oz medium toast French oak to it- I wanted to be cautious and am ok to just let it sit longer rather than add in 2-3oz and have to take it out sooner. Still waiting for the malolactic to arrive in the mail...hmm...

It didn't seem like we had to degas either- wasn't fizzy. I did get a mix-stir so if I have to still can.

The Riesling is tasting awesome but is very cloudy as of yet. The cab has already settled down a bunch of the lees to the bottom which is very fun. My partner was a super big help especially in making sure everything is sanitized easily, he had some organizational tricks. I'm very glad he is showing me the ropes. It's a good project together so far- he is the organizational thing, I am the keep it chill person/snob about ingredients (well, he has been in the past too). He hasn't brewed anything in about 5 years, and hasn't done wine, so it's fresh for him. Hopefully we will use this at a celebration one day...the way things are going in the world it's looking like plenty of time to age this stuff tho.

He has a bunch of flip tops left from his ciders and meads- any reason we shouldn't use these to bottle eventually? I wasn't sure if the corks are needed especially for the reds to age well.


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## dizzy (Nov 9, 2020)

Oh also so I learned, should have gotten some extra with the Riesling, as you can see, not quite to the top. My bf wasn't worried even though I was. He had some sort of like Argon spray or something that he put in before we put the airlock on. Coolio???


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## winemaker81 (Nov 10, 2020)

You can use a commercial Riesling for topup. Argon is supposed to work, although some gasses need to be renewed periodically as they dissipate -- I don't know if argon is one of those.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 10, 2020)

dizzy said:


> Oh also so I learned, should have gotten some extra with the Riesling, as you can see, not quite to the top. My bf wasn't worried even though I was. He had some sort of like Argon spray or something that he put in before we put the airlock on. Coolio???





winemaker81 said:


> You can use a commercial Riesling for topup. Argon is supposed to work, although some gasses need to be renewed periodically as they dissipate -- I don't know if argon is one of those.



All gases dissipate. That measure will help a little, but, as @winemaker81 says, best practice is to top up.


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## dizzy (Dec 14, 2020)

So wines are progressing nicely, despite the fact that neither of the MLF I ordered ever showed. F it, might as well go au naturel? My partner and I had a lot of disagreement about topping up, he had never done this for his ciders/meads and they ARE all excellent. I eventually dropped the argument and sneaked in some WA and N Cal riesling to top up. Maybe a lesson learned, lol. Last samples tasted great. 
I only used 1.5oz French oak for the 5 gal cab and it still needs more after month and a half...totally fine to take my time here.

Any thoughts on all those flip bottles he has, using them to bottle either/and/or the white/red? Maybe I should just convince him to finally bottle two ancient carboys of cider he made, but IDK.

At any rate I am pleased with the progress, I plan to buy some Australian juice soon from PI wine and use the leftover frozen grape must in there for another carboy once all that arrives.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 17, 2020)

I don't have an answer on the flip bottles. They _should _seal fine and can be stored upright. But will oxygen pass the seal? I'd not store them on their side, in case the acid in the wine reacts with the seal.

If it was me, I'd bottle a few in flip bottles and the remainder in corkable bottles. Test a flip every 3 months against a regular to see if there are differences. If after a year there are none, I'd call it a success.


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## dizzy (Feb 3, 2021)

So I finally racked off of the sediment. Soooo crazy last couple months, extra shifts/interviews/new jobs. Finally had to cut back slightly and stabilize things and I have a more organized schedule with regular time off now. Yay! Back to the vino...

There was very little in the Riesling which is tbh DAYUM good right now. I just added some opti white and I very well may bottle in a month or so. Main things I'm getting are peach and honeysuckle. But it's still dry. There were some crystals in the bottom? Not as much sediment, assuming because I started with juice not must.

The Cab is coming along nicely. I had put 1.5oz of French oak cubes in back in December. I'm unsure if I still need more. I am getting a lot of fruity cherry still on the back of it. It's JUST a touch like cherry cough syrup now...before it was tasting more like that. Gotta dig out the ph gauge I bought couple months ago and misplaced...

Good news is our wedding is not looking good for this year, lots of time to prepare lol!


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## dizzy (Feb 3, 2021)

Also I still have all the pressed must (with a decent amount of juice in them bc we hand squeezed)...I think it's good for one more round. It's the must from 80lbs of Cab Sauv grapes- realistically how many gallons juice should I be adding here? 

I don't want to do cab again so I guess it will be a "blend". Was thinking a Shiraz from PI wine but it's getting closer to Gino Pinto season which would save me a lil $$. IDK, I guess it's not important if the juice is crazy better quality from one or the other Anyone have experience with GP's Chilean/S African wines? Malbec, Carmenere, Pinotage all seem like interesting options. Any recommendations as I do my research?


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## dizzy (Mar 31, 2021)

Riesling is even better than before- win! 
The cab is still weird but doesn't have that cherry stronger taste anymore that was a little off putting. Surprised how different it tastes now since last time. I feel like it needs some more body/tannins still- it's like, thin. Do I put more oak, or do I add tannin?

Still haven't decided on what white wine juice to add to the cab I have frozen for my bastardized rose. Maybe I'll call it yin yang rose (I'm an acupuncturist). I had a bottle of orange wine and a dry rose made with cabernet sauvignon and really didn't come to any conclusion on how I want it to taste (other than not totally cloying). We will see... 

We are looking for a new wedding venue and it's dependent on our and their availability so we aren't exactly sure how long the rose (or the cab for that matter) will have to age! An experiment to be sure...
There also is some question about if we can have glass bottles or not in some venues so keeping that in mind. Maybe no flip bottles after all.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 31, 2021)

not sure why i haven’t come across this thread at all till now. So much info to take in! surprised to see so few replies in here too. will try to help out and cover most of your questions as best i can.

first off, congrats on what sounds like a successful 1st attempt so far. 
I’ve always used opti-white/red in primary fermentation, not after. but sounds like you had good results w/ the opti-white. nice.



dizzy said:


> Surprised how different it tastes now since last time. I feel like it needs some more body/tannins still- it's like, thin. Do I put more oak, or do I add tannin?


As far as the cab goes— i wouldn’t mess with it anymore. Just let it be, continue your racking and so2 protocol—- and hold off on bottling as long as you can stand. I’ll bulk age minimum 1 year. Lately longer. Once it’s in the bottle it will disappear! And at 6 mos. it’s still just a baby. It will only improve.
it’s also so easy to ruin a wine tinkering too much with unnecessary acid tweaking or finishing tannins. These first few months show dramatic transformation. Now it can age & improve. 



dizzy said:


> The Cab is coming along nicely. I had put 1.5oz of French oak cubes in back in December. I'm unsure if I still need more.


Only person who can determine the oak is you. if you think it needs more then add some more. If you overdo it don’t worry as it will fade a bit over time.

i got the other WA cab at keystone and it’s a monster. The red mt. big flavor. great color. big tannin. will need some time to calm down.

also normally after primary and pressing grapes there is always substantial sediment. that initial dropout (aka the heavy/gross lees) has a lot of junk in it and can give the wine off flavors. Typical move is another racking again in a few days to get it off the heavy lees. Then again after mlf completes. then every 3-4 months. Very happy to see everything going so well for ya.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 31, 2021)

For the upcoming season- mulling over what you plan to make is part of the fun. especially around here with so many local options. i wouldn’t assume any extra volume from the frozen skins. whatever they add will just be a bonus. when deciding amounts- just remember the juice is only sold in buckets- 5 or 6gal increments. 




dizzy said:


> Also I still have all the pressed must (with a decent amount of juice in them bc we hand squeezed)...I think it's good for one more round. It's the must from 80lbs of Cab Sauv grapes- realistically how many gallons juice should I be adding here?


 *The amount of frozen skins to juice ratio doesn’t matter. Could add it all to one or split up into 2 buckets. I once added 300lbs worth of lightly pressed cab skins to one 6gal bucket of syrah. Was basically sludge. Was difficult to punchdown and stir and was nervous i overdid it. But the resulting came out excellent.

another cool thing about adding the skins is they still have active yeast in em. so when adding to a pail of juice you wouldn’t need to add any yeast (or malo had you co-inoculated—-i am a loyal co-inoculator. never had an issue). once temps rise up a bit it will take off like gangbusters.

Don’t hesitate to bump brix by adding some sugar to the juice too. they are usually pre balanced to around 1.090. So around 13% fully dry. i like to get them to 1.100 (between 23.5-24 brix)



dizzy said:


> Anyone have experience with GP's Chilean/S African wines? Malbec, Carmenere, Pinotage all seem like interesting options. Any recommendations as I do my research?


As far as what to get- that’s on you! ive made cali buckets & chilean. They all seemed to be right in par with each other tbh. But the Regina juice from Procacci in the fall has been my go-to for juice. 

last spring i did a malbec from grapes and another juice/grape mix. franc & sauv buckets with PV grapes. Been defaulting to malbec grapes in spring because well, it’s south america and that’s what they do best! Stole some juice at crush and made a rosé too. Did the same in the fall and will do again this year. 


Morewine sells a red/white $5 fermentation additive pack for frozen must but its perfect for juice buckets too. especially when adding grapes or skins. contains:
1. lallzyme EX enzymes- helps extract everything the skins have to offer
2. opti red- for color retention
3. fermaid K- nutrient
4. GoFerm - nutrient for hydrating the yeast
5. FT Rouge- fermentation tannin aides body & mouthfeel





__





Additive Pack for Frozen Grapes (Reds) | MoreWine


Here at MoreWine!, we like it easy. This additive pack includes everything that you will need for fermentation (except the yeast) for one pail of frozen...




 morewinemaking.com




Looks like the USD is already starting to go to shit! the $5 additive pack is now $8.
(i try to make all my online purchases from morewine at once. free shipping on orders over $60)


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## winemaker81 (Mar 31, 2021)

I missed the last posts as well.



dizzy said:


> The cab is still weird but doesn't have that cherry stronger taste anymore that was a little off putting. Surprised how different it tastes now since last time. I feel like it needs some more body/tannins still- it's like, thin. Do I put more oak, or do I add tannin?


I agree, go easy on the tinkering, as the wine will be changing in upcoming months. You can try glycerin later to improve body.



dizzy said:


> Also I still have all the pressed must (with a decent amount of juice in them bc we hand squeezed)...I think it's good for one more round. It's the must from 80lbs of Cab Sauv grapes- realistically how many gallons juice should I be adding here?


It's probably too late at this point, but for a 2nd run the rule of thumb is add 1 gallon water for 2 gallons wine. Some measure this only with free run juice, I do a light pressing. If you're hand squeezing, that counts as a very light press.

This year I reduced the water from 50% to ~40%, to get a richer wine.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 31, 2021)

dizzy said:


> Also, for anyone interested- managed to get the rough areas these grapes were coming from. They said the WA riesling was from Treveri Cellars (Rattlesnake Hills AVA!) and the WA cab sauv was from grapes from Inland Desert nursery which is real near to Red Mountain AVA, east of Benton City. Maybe they can't call the grapes from that AVA (they offered a separate "Red Mountain" cab) since they aren't from a winery, but a nursery, or there's grapes from other areas in the mix.



Yep. i got that other one. the separate Red Mt cab. you didn’t come across more info for them did you? Some grapes they offer details. others are vague. All ya get is “grapes from paso robles”. or “red mt.” w/ nothing else. 

But “an inland desert nursery east of benton city near red mt.” sounds somewhat specific. i bet you could find out specifics with a little digging. a lot of vineyards or nurseries w/ excess fruit selling in bulk post it to winebusiness.com

At Keystone a lot of their business overlaps with the separate winery behind them, Stone & Key Cellars. They got the same grapes i did too. I tried getting them to share some details & lab info with me with no luck. this pissed me off and turned it into a competition! lol. When their ‘20 cab is released i’ll be curious to see how mine compares.


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## dizzy (Apr 15, 2021)

I didn't happen to ask @Ajmassa about the separate Red Mt. cab...that area is great though.
"Inland Desert Nursery" is actually the name though. It's not a winery per se, it's a nursery that grows vines and sells to local wineries and rando people I guess? What it sounds like is they just sell the grapes from the vines that they grow there to develop and sell to vineyards. Inland Desert Nursery – Certified Clean Grapevine Nursery in Washington State

Anyway, we finally have a date! 10/23/21. I was freaking out since our original venue got weird/expensive and then everywhere was too expensive and/or booked and/or made us use their catering and booze. In the end we have a super dope place at a good price, it's called Appel Farm in south Jersey. Besides being this awesome non profit for the arts I've had good experiences with (some gigs there, super nice people) they have a huge professional kitchen and all the tables and chairs I can dream of. So besides the booze, DIY food is gonna be reasonable. TWO! I said, TWO! steam tables, swoon.

So I guess I'll give my bastard rose a go when the buckets come in soon- it'll have 6 months. Still not sure on the juice!

I also came to the conclusion about not bottling until closer to the date. I'll let it bulk age another few months why not.


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## dizzy (Apr 28, 2021)

Wooo got my joos today. Drove down to Gino Pinto's since the bucket I ordered was in. This wine is going to be so weird- I decided to grab some South African semillon...letting that roll with some Rhone 4600 I scored cheap to get some mouthfeel going for a few days. Had just enough time to get that set up before heading into work and when I get home my big bucket is sanitized to thaw my leftover cab sauv skins that had RC212 on them. I'm going to give them some time to come to room temperature and then in a couple days add the juice. THEN after a day or something pull the skins at which point it will be a totally rando rose hopefully. Battle of the ferments...I think the RC212 will win in the end but what do I know?

I'm not sure I heard of anyone doing something like this...fermenting a white juice with red skins to make rose...maybe it's stupid, who knows! Really hoping it does something more like a orange (ie white- skin fermented) wine than a normal fruity rose, IDK. For sure though it will be unique. 

Bonus points that I can name it ZA-million (rim shot)...also a nod to my fiance's habit of "making people millionaires" by adding in a Zimbabwe million dollar bill in with the tip at restaurants.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 28, 2021)

dizzy said:


> I'm not sure I heard of anyone doing something like this...fermenting a white juice with red skins to make rose...maybe it's stupid, who knows!


This is an intriguing idea. Since roses are often made by crushing reds and letting them sit on the skins for a few hours before pressing, i suspect you want to go light on the skins and you may need to pull them quicker than you think. If you leave the skins in for the full fermentation, you may get a wine that's darker than you expect.


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## dizzy (Apr 28, 2021)

Yes, I'm going to make sure I do this on a day I can watch it. Really no idea what to expect.
I think it's so funny though...like a bastard rose of Bordeaux grapes (except the grapes are from Washington and the juice from the other hemisphere). The sort of thing you can only do if you make it yourself!

Also I asked them about where it's from...they said they only know region on the actual grapes and only that the juice is from "South Africa". Told me that he'd have to email somebody to try to find an answer, while looking at me like I have three heads. Um, am I the only person that's curious what region or even vineyard this stuff is from? Anyway I asked nicely and they took down my email, we will see if there is any answer.


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## dizzy (May 1, 2021)

Alright! 4 days in and today was skins day.

What I did was on day 1 (mid afternoon) get my semillon juice started and then take out the frozen cab sauv skins in another bucket.
The semillon got the Rhone 4600 and the cab sauv already had been inoculated with RC212.

Day 3 later in the day I took about a liter of semillon juice and added it to the cab skins to juice up a bit. Is that a thing. Renegade style haha. The semillon was kinda hazy and had a foamy skin on it...I think this was because I didn't mix the yeast well enough at the start and it's been slowly mixing in better. The cab skins already smelling good.

Day 4 (today) got home from work. The semillon had cleared up by now, smells great, normal foam. Added somewhere around 4 gallons semillon juice to the cab skins pail. Hour and a half later it was a nice rose looking color so I pulled it- squeezing out the rest of the skins. Both pails smelling even better in just that short time. The cab is already getting some strawberry kinda smell to it and the semillon is more pear and floral maybe.

Brix is already down to 14...rollin along....

Pic 1 is the semillon, pic 2 is my rose juice, pic 3 is after I squeezed the grapes bag out.


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## dizzy (May 4, 2021)

Amazingly I got a reply back from Gino Pinto on the South African juice. 

"South African Whites are coming from the Breede valley which is relatively broad and flat for a Western Cape valley, averaging at a floor height of 80m-250m above sea-level. Western regions are mostly alluvial and flat, The valley is framed by the high mountains of the Cape Fold Belt, Its namesake, the Breede River, flows through the broad valley as a consequent stream Grapes in these areas are typically late ripening."


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## dizzy (May 15, 2021)

Don't try this at home kids...
Racked the rose last night...ran it as dry as I could. Once again have messed up on the carboy situation- thought we had a 5 gal, nope, it's 6, and turns out too much head space. Otherwise had 4 1-gallon jugs...

We racked, argon'd the crud out of it, and I guess I'll run by the store after work to get some top up stuff. Again. Sigh.

Color is bubblegum pink, our family members who like Arbor Mist will feel included. Seriously tho, it's interesting...first thing I get is like strawberry/rhubarb? But then some vague but pleasant florals...um, I'm not sure- honeysuckle? Mouthfeel is real though, very smooth, not sure how to describe it. Anyway it's weirdo and I think it will be great.

Here's a contrast pic with the Riesling and Cab Sauv in the back.


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## dizzy (Jul 21, 2021)

About 3 months out from the big day, kids!

Took one last taste test of the cab and the rose- both are coming along nicely. Whatever was going on the cab that I wasn't sure about has settled down- still definitely a lot of fruit in it, but the tannins are coming through finally, it's starting to taste more like a normal, aged red. Rose is great, very subtle flavors, but does have a lil acidity. Tastes like, a rose- what I was going for, coolio! Even though it's dry I think the people in my family who go towards a little more sweetness (cough, arbor mist, reunite) will still dig it because it's not so bold.

I'm starting to think about bottling. Original plan is bottle in the swing tops my fiance has. He has only about 2 cases though and that won't be enough.
I'm thinking practicality- cleanup will be hella easier at the end of the night using bags. Lighter to carry these bad boys too (tho I have fiance to help with that 
I would need 6 3L bags per 5 gal, and 7 for the 6 gal, with some leftover. Can get this number down with putting some in bottles. It's a decent amount of boxes to get though. Otherwise we'll need around 80 bottles.

I'm definitely sure we will drink all of the wine within the year...supposedly this is going to be more than enough for our group to party at least 6 hours (how long we think, but we dunno...have the venue all night

Is doing the bags any easier than normal bottling? I am leaning towards this now ESPECIALLY if it will be easier than individual bottling (I mean, it has to be right? Filling 25 bags vs 80 bottles?)


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## Rice_Guy (Jul 21, 2021)

Bags are easy. EVOH transparent oxygen barrier bags are available on Amazon. I like the metalized oxygen barrier bags and given a choice would use them.
? ,, ? for short term party storage 1.5 liter screw top bottles work, recycled bottles and caps probably are better than natural cork for oxygen resistance, I do some screw caps on every bottle run, mainly for taking to vinters meetings,,, but bag in box is also good technology.
The main issue on bag in box is to hold the spout in some type of clamp while you are filling. I assume they are sterile out of the box. ,,, They always hold more than the volume rating when inserted in the cardboard box. I have some here that hold about 4.5 gallons.

what else? one market for them is wine to use for top off in a winery. This is since they can deliver wine and keep zero head space inside the box, ,,, and I use them as variable capacity small carboys.


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## dizzy (Aug 3, 2021)

So we think we have a plan, kinda...
My fiance has generously volunteered to bottle. We are going to use the BIB bags that have the dual spout since it's easier. We have saved a massive amount of money overall, we can afford to spend a tiny amount here to make it simpler. I tried contacting local coffee shops but I didn't like that their bags didn't have the tap, and it was just as expensive as ordering the wine specific ones.

So plan is for the cab and the riesling:
1 10L box, 1 5L box, and then bottle the rest in the 1L swingtops he has to give us 4 bottles to keep (8 total between the 2)
Then for the rose 2 10L box, and about 3 bottles in 1L swingtops.

So I can just order 2 sets of 10L bags (2 each) and 1 set of 5L bags, and be done with it. About $36 but I had amazon credits, so only $12.
If we don't get to the 2nd box of rose, it's my band's 15th anniversary the week after, I'm sure there will be a use for it. 

I'm debating on whether I will get a fancy box or try to rig something up. I found these:








Wine Dispenser Box Wave Texture Black and White (10 L | 2.64 gal)


Refillable Use these instead of bottles Ideal for wine. Can be reused 5 or 6 times This Box Has A Folding Interlocking Base And Front Panel Which Does Not Require The Use Of Tape. Food Safe - This Product Is Also Suitable For Storing and Dispensing All Non-Carbonated Drinks Inc Water, Juices And...



wineloversonline.com




TBH I'm really surprised I can't find anywhere else that sells these? But price/quality looks good.

I think probably I will just get them since it's again, one less thing to worry about. Slap a label on them and done. They are $7 each.


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## dizzy (Oct 8, 2021)

The day we have all been waiting for...bottling day!

Fiance took care of it, lol. He's the best! 

Unfortunately I was at work and didn't get to sample. BUT! he said it was "really f'ing good" and he does not really love wine. Thankyouuuuu. I think he was a little skeptical of my plan, and just like, doing this huge project with little experience (tho he guided me a bit with the sanitation, since he had done it many times for cider/mead). As I know with cooking tho: good ingredients make all the difference.

We both agreed that cab is inky AF. Awesome.

He did go a little gungho on the filling of the bags, whoops. Hopefully people like rose?


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## dizzy (Oct 11, 2021)

Used Canva to make wine labels. It was a very easy process- they have quite a few templates available. Here's one of them.


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## dizzy (Nov 10, 2021)

Followup!

So we had our wedding, yay! Apparently our stuff was TOO professionally done, a lot of people didn't realize we made the wine or thought we like, put labels on something that someone else made etc. The ones who understood what we did thought it was dope! BUT we have a lot left over, I guess our crew wasn't heavy drinkers and there was about 60% of wine and 75% of beer left.

I brought some of the rose (the wine that was the least good of the trio) over to an end-of-season hang at a new farm across town from us. Figured it made sense. People were going wild about it and there were a few nerds who appreciated it ("it's so dry, it's awesome" "I get that strawberry rhubarb in it, tho subtle, really unique" etc). Was offered a chance to sell it at the farmstand next year which is SUUUUPER not legal altho these people are chill and everything is technically run as donations there for now. So yeah. But I think there's a good chance for barter which would be really cool. Also one person asked if I'd be interested in doing it for her wedding (not engaged yet but I guess things looking good) and someone else mentioned something about some dinner events at the farm, would I be interested in providing wine? Whole lot of possibilities there for the future.

Anyway it definitely made me feel good. I think a lot of the people who had it so far were just whatever wine drinkers so it was nice to have some people who could appreciate it be into it. IDK when I'm going to make another batch tho but it seems like a cool hobby to do over the long term.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 10, 2021)

Glad folks liked what you did. Just so you know Bartering is just as illegal as selling. Someone can buy you a kit/juice/grapes and you provide them with wine made from it, probably. I got my law degree from the great state of Google and we all know everything on the Internet has to be true Abraham Lincoln and Ben Franklin both said that. 

My bottom line is I will give anyone of legal drinking age any wine that they want, if they want second bottles at a later time, return the bottles to me, that's all I ask. Nothing that has any look, feel, hint of you give me something, I give you wine in exchange for it.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 10, 2021)

dizzy said:


> Was offered a chance to sell it at the farmstand next year which is SUUUUPER not legal altho these people are chill and everything is technically run as donations there for now.


Be very cautious of anything remotely resembling sales. Even if it's for a charity, anyone selling in the USA needs applicable licenses, else it's bootlegging. This includes barter.

On a small scale, getting caught is unlikely, and unless the amount is significant it's unlikely to get prosecuted. The biggest danger is that people talk and if someone says, "I bought Dizzy's wine," it can be enough to start an investigation. My father was a cop and his advice was that even if you're innocent, it's best to not be investigated.

As @cmason1957 said, you can give wine away, as I did for my son's wedding reception. You can also make wine for others, e.g., they purchase the materials and you donate your labor. 

If money is exchanging hands in any way, research your local laws before doing anything. Better safe than sorry.

NC has readily available information for starting a winery. While I have no interest in going pro, it's interesting reading.





__





NC Wine > Starting a Winery > Starting a Commercial Winery






www.ncagr.gov


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## dizzy (Nov 10, 2021)

Cool I'll read up on it! TBH I don't know if I'll really be motivated enough to make more than we'll drink so who even knows....anyway doing a workshare at the farm next year instead would be better for me to get in shape, haha


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## Gilmango (Nov 11, 2021)

Just found this thread yesterday, congrats on your wedding and your successful 3 batches of wine! Love the rose idea and the saving of those Cabernet skins in the freezer.


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