# What to do what to do??



## jburtner

I came across this at the store and said why not.... Guess I'll mix it all together and add some nutrient. Take an SG reading. Think it'll be close enough to 1070/1080 w/2g honey and 5g juice?

Any advise?

Thank you!
-jb


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## bkisel

Is that raw unpasteurized cider? I've got 12 gallons of apple cider to wine going right now. I use *honey*, brown sugar and frozen apple juice concentrate for back sweetening. Reason I've got 12 gallons going now is because of how well last years 6 gallon batch turned out.

So... Apple wine back sweetened with honey!


Ps. You could also make something else but my research suggest it _might_ be illegal.


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## jburtner

It is pasteurized but no preservatives. Will the 2g/5g ratio provide good ABV or do I need more? Figure this will make 7g at least so i'll end up with a solid 6g. Should I add some apples too?

Cheers,
Jb


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## bkisel

I think you're okay with pasteurized but no preservatives but not 100% sure. Unless you've got a recipe showing ratios I would shoot for 10-12% ABV using a hydrometer. Starting SG of 1.080 to 1.090 would probably be good. I'd back sweeten to taste.

I've used raw cider which has a lot of pulp so didn't need or want apples. With pasteurized maybe adding some apple for body would be a good idea.

Here is my recipe compiled from several others...



Primary Ingredients...

6 gallons non-pasteurized, no additive apple cider
1 tsp. tannin
3 tsp. yeast nutrient
1 tsp. yeast energizer
3 tsp. pectic enzyme
3/4 tsp absorbic acid
6-9 tsp acid blend
3-5 tsp bentonite
6-8 pounds sugar - SG 1.080-1.090 - 11% to 12% potential abv
1/4 tsp k-meta
1 packet yeast (EC-1118 or some other white wine yeast) - after 24 hours of above

Degas/Stabilize/Clear...

2 tsp Potassium Sorbate
1/4 tsp k-meta
1 packet(s) SuperKleer

Back Sweeten...

2 cups brown sugar
1 cup honey
2 cans frozen apple juice concentrate


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## jburtner

4x4Lbs so 16Lbs and two gallons of Honey. Any way to determine approx SG with thise numbers?

Thank you!
-johann


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## Johnd

jburtner said:


> 4x4Lbs so 16Lbs and two gallons of Honey. Any way to determine approx SG with thise numbers?
> 
> Thank you!
> -johann



The average Brix of apple is 13.3, or SG=1.0538, but you'll need to measure what you are using to see what yours is.

Using Fermcalc with the following parameters, Honey @ SG 1.4142, Target SG of 1.080, Initial SG of 1.0538, Initial Volume of 5 gallons, you would need 4.379 pounds of honey to get your SG to 1.080, and you'd have 5.37 gallons of liquid.

If my sugar parameters for the juice and honey are correct, and you use all of the honey, your beginning must would have SG=1.134 and be 6.33 gallons. Beginning SG of 1.134 would yield a wine with ABV approaching 20%. Since no yeast will ferment to 20% (EC-1118 will do +/- 18%), you'll end up with rocket fuel and residual sugar.

Having said that, were I you, this is what I'd do, start with 6 gallons of juice to make sure you end up with a solid 6 gallons, and add your honey slowly, mixing well to ensure proper readings, and use your hydrometer to get to your target of 1.080. As a guideline, using the same parameters as above, 6 gallons of juice would need 5.25 pounds of honey to get to the target 1.080. Again, your juice and honey may have different SG's than the ones I assumed. Hope this helps.


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## bkisel

How good is your math? One cup honey roughly equals, I've read, two cups of sugar. On average I've used about 7 cups of sugar to get each of my 6 gallon apple cider musts up to ~ SG 1.085.

I've no idea how the sugar content of your cider compares to what I used so so we're just WAGing it. I recommend again that you get yourself a hydrometer or find a recipe using ratios.


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## jburtner

Thank you JohnD and Bill!

Yes I have hydrometer and Brix meter so will open a jug of the juice and measure when I start it up.... Maybe I can brix meter the honey too but it might be off that scale. Low and slow with mixing the honey in sounds good and I'll check out fermcalc for reference... I thought I would be using much more honey but that's ok as it looks like I'll have extra for some different meads then and I'll pic up another gallon or 1.5 of the juice so there is some extra for top-up and tasting as we go 

I've never had mead so am very interested in trying this liquid gold nectar of the gods and incorporating it into our cellar with different recipies 

Thank you for the input so far it's very helpful!

Do these typically need any additional acids? We don't really ever drink sweet wines so very interested to see how it tastes dry. I imagine that this would take some oak very well too....

Cheers,
johann


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## Johnd

jburtner said:


> Thank you JohnD and Bill!
> 
> Yes I have hydrometer and Brix meter so will open a jug of the juice and measure when I start it up.... Maybe I can brix meter the honey too but it might be off that scale. Low and slow with mixing the honey in sounds good and I'll check out fermcalc for reference... I thought I would be using much more honey but that's ok as it looks like I'll have extra for some different meads then and I'll pic up another gallon or 1.5 of the juice so there is some extra for top-up and tasting as we go
> 
> I've never had mead so am very interested in trying this liquid gold nectar of the gods and incorporating it into our cellar with different recipies
> 
> Thank you for the input so far it's very helpful!
> 
> Do these typically need any additional acids? We don't really ever drink sweet wines so very interested to see how it tastes dry. I imagine that this would take some oak very well too....
> 
> Cheers,
> johann



Apple juice contains a lot of malic acid, which is fairly sharp and strong, so you'll definitely have some acid in there. If you have a meter, go ahead and take a pH reading just to see where you are, your ferment will be sound as long as you are above 3.2 or 3.3, and your wine will be stable as long as you are below 3.6 or 3.7. Since your must will be fairly light in color, you may be able to use the pH test strips, which are harder to read for red wines.

I do note that Bill's recipe contains a couple of different acid additions, he may know something there about apple that I do not, so I'll defer to his experience on that matter.

If you're in the 3.3 - 3.6 range, you should be safe to ferment, and you can do some bench tests later to see if you want to adjust the acid for taste before you bottle your batch.


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## BernardSmith

Better to weigh sugar than measure it by volume. One pound of table sugar dissolved in water to make a gallon will raise the gravity by 40 points. One pound of honey dissolved in water to make a gallon will raise the gravity by about 35 points (there being some moisture in the honey that is not in the sugar). How much a cup of either will raise the gravity... I have no idea. How granular the sugar is may result in two cups having very different weights...


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## jburtner

I'm going to start this batch this weekend....

Planning to add enough honey to make it in the 11-12% ABV range but keep it pretty much straight Apple Cider & Honey - Planning to add 10# of mixed apples instead of another gallon of juice.

To enhance mouthfeel I have heard of adding banana. Any idea of range of how much for a six gallon batch?

Any recommendations on type of Tannin?

Might I consider a # or two of white grapes?

Oak in primary & during Bulk Age?

D47 for yeast?

Thanks and I'll update with details / etc as it goes..

Cheers,
johann


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## jburtner

Ended up with this -

6x gallons cider no preservatives pasteurized
8x lbs honey
2x lbs golden raisins - rehydrated a d chopped
10x lbs honey crisp apples. Sliced cored chopped. 
2x bananas chopped no skins
1tsp wine tannin
4oz medium american oak shavings. 

Sat overnight - sg~1090. Then strained into a grain bag. Tied it off. 

Rehydrated lalvin D47 with warm water and 1tsp yeast energizer. 30m. Pitched. 

Will add some fermaid k once AF starts then remaining dose @ about 1/2 way through AF. 

Off to the races!

Cheers,
Johann


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## jburtner

Despite ambient temp of 59F in the cellar (and in the must) the yeasties are doing their job as of this cold morning and I rewarded them with about 4g of Fermain K. My brewbelt does not seem to be providing heat either so I nabbed a heating pad and wrapped it to the side of the brute can.

Before I pitched the yeasties I was blown away by the wonderful smell of the apple / honey blend but it really brings a very nice aroma to the whole cellar now with the ferment kicking in. 

I have another heating pad - slightly larger- if needed. I'll be checking tonight. 

Cheers!
-johann


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## jburtner

It was down to an SG of 1020 yesterday so progressing without issue. I step fed the fermaid k and I feel like I noticed better smell a couple hours after mixing it in. Racked to secondary yesterday too and its bubbling away nicely. Should go dry within a day or two now. I forgot to mix in the bentonite slurry at the start so I mixed in a couple teaspoons this am since it looks like there is a lot of sediment. I'm hoping I can get it to drop nice and compact. Had a cyser volcano when I mixed the bentonite which was fairly exciting but the camera wasnt ready...

Cheers!
-jb


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## Bodenski

I've been following this for a little bit. What made you choose Honeycrisps as the apples? Most things I've read have said you want to use more of a sour apple for brewing (thinking hard cider) than a sweet one, and honeycrisps are definitely in the sweet category. I'm just curious what influenced your decision to go with those.


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## jburtner

Nothing in particular but I usually like to eat that kind and I wasn't too worried because it was just 10# fresh apples compared to 6 gallons of cider...

BTW, when I transferred to secondary the apples in the bag were just about completely gone - just oak chips were left in the brew-bag... So pretty much all 10# converted to juice - and sediment...

Cheers!
-jb


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## jburtner

Lee's are slowly "compacting" and it's still bubbling so hoping to get a full 6 gallons out of this one with some top up. 

Cheers!
-johann


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## jdeere5220

I back-sweetened one 6 gallon batch of dry apple wine I made last year with 1 lb of honey. Might have been the best apple wine I ever made. I like the dry apple wine too, but that slight sweetness and honey flavor were REALLY good. Too bad it's all gone now....


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## jburtner

This is tasting pretty good so far. I added a small bag of dried mango slices and it's sitting on the fine lee''s which I stir up regularly. May add another once I let it sit for a while..

Cheers!
-j


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## jburtner

The mango bits are getting swirled. Lost a bit of headspace in rackings. Might top up with "some juice and honey" just for fun. Pretty cold in the basement but it bubbles a little since I added the dried mango. 

Cheers!
-jb


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## jburtner

Ended up topping up and step feeding into the carboy another 4lbs jar of honey mixed with cider. Ferment is back on! Did not take an SG measurement but I'll go through my notes to estimate what the abv might be - I used 8lbs honey initially for an sg of 1090 and potential abv 12%. There were apples raisins and cider which also contributed to that. I'm going to guess another 4%? Might be a bit high for the D47. If it stalls I'll pitch some 1118 to finish dry.

This has been fun and I like tasting it along the way too 

Cheers,
Johann


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## jburtner

I went and visited the fermcalc to estimate what adding 4lbs of honey would do... Plus a little more Apple Cider for top up...

Sounds like it should've gone up to about ~SG1.025 (from a presumed ~SG0.998) and I'll thusly get an additional maybe 3.5%ABV or so which will bring us up to a total ~16%? I'll buy that for "close enough"... 

~OG1.090 + 0.025SG-CHAPITALIZATION = ~TG1.115 when fermented down to ~SG0.998 will be in the range of 16%ABV....

I took an SG measurement (and yes another a taste test) the other day and it was sitting @ ~SG1.010'ish so on the way - pretty sweet for my tastes but good. I'll check again tonight but it goes very slow at this rate and yet the airlock has good activity. I tested this full hydrometer cylinder and it was very yummy - I quickly turned on The Immigrant Song - loud - and was in the zone and went straight to Valhalla...

Might have to recheck that SG again tonight for starters....

Cheers!
-johann.b


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## jburtner

Checked SG this AM and while airlock is still bubbling the SG is about the same as it was four days ago ~SG1.011'ish (i'll need to be more exact on these SG measurements) - I added some Fermaid-K this morning and stirred.... I've got the carboy wrapped in a heating pad and the must measures about 72*F or mid 70's'ish...

If it's still stuck this weekend I'll prep some ec1118 rehydrate in water or cider and add some of the mead in slowly maybe with a little honey and nutrient to see if I can get a good colony going before pitching that to hopefully finish it out...

Oh The MelowDrama with this Melomel and I just keep messing with it!

Cheers!
-johann.b


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## jburtner

Interesting that the airlock produces activity - 40-60 bubbles/min for the past week yet the SG is constant @1.010. 

Preparing the ec1118-bomb. Water @ 105*F honey DAP goferm.


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## hounddawg

i backsweeten most all my country wineswith honey and have ever since my second batches, i run my ABV way up back then sweeten with a high grade grandular honey, after several months you can detect no alcohol till it's to late to be walking or driving, one glass and i sleep like a baby. 
DAWG








[/B]


bkisel said:


> Is that raw unpasteurized cider? I've got 12 gallons of apple cider to wine going right now. I use *honey*, brown sugar and frozen apple juice concentrate for back sweetening. Reason I've got 12 gallons going now is because of how well last years 6 gallon batch turned out.
> 
> So... Apple wine back sweetened with honey!
> 
> 
> Ps. You could also make something else but my research suggest it _might_ be illegal.


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## jburtner

This is a little bit of a science experiment so having fun with it  I'm hoping to ferment dry then clear stabilize add some oak and top up as needed. The 12oz of dried mango has really added a very nice aroma and I love the flavor. Once everything has settled down and things start to meld I may do a couple tests for back sweetening but we like it dry and on my dragon blood batches I had only added 3/4 cups sugar to a 6g batch at most which is almost too much after some bottle time. I'm thinking equivalent honey / apple juice to 1/2 or 1/3 cup of sugar will work well to just slightly elevate the fruit and flower. 

Pitched the ec118-bomb last night after stepping in some of the must over an hour to acclimate then step pitching it into the carboy. 

Cheers!
Johann.b


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## wineforfun

hounddawg said:


> detect no alcohol till it's to late to be walking or driving, one glass and i sleep like a baby.
> DAWG
> [/B]



haha
That is awesome, my kind of glass.


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## jburtner

Very impressive display of floating brain in a jar aka keeving! Will need to rack this off and see if I can understand what part of the ec1118-bomb may have triggered this reaction or if it was something else. Have not tested but am looking forward to testing later in tje mornimg after separating the keev from the juice. My plans may change a little after this unexpected development and maybe racking down to a 5g is close at hand....

Cheers!
-johann.b


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## Johnd

Had to retype this, read your post wrong the first time. Is that a raft of floating yeast or is it pulp and lees?


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## jburtner

It's gelatinized lees, pulp, and material? I googled something like "cider floating sponge" and it appears to be byproduct of a process called keeving. Lots of pictures and this looks exactly the same. From what I read folks trigger this reaction maybe with a calcium chloride addition in cider making but generally early on or before fermentation. It binds up nutrients in order to slow the ferment and maintain a sweet finish? Hmmmm. I was trying for the opposite - there is still significant bubble activity in the must because it's making this cap float. 

It's almost like a clearing agent has been added but ferment makes it float. Dead yeast lees are on the bottom so this is slightly different. 

Thanks 
-johann.b


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## Johnd

jburtner said:


> It's gelatinized lees, pulp, and material? I googled something like "cider floating sponge" and it appears to be byproduct of a process called keeving. Lots of pictures and this looks exactly the same. From what I read folks trigger this reaction maybe with a calcium chloride addition in cider making but generally early on or before fermentation. It binds up nutrients in order to slow the ferment and maintain a sweet finish? Hmmmm. I was trying for the opposite - there is still significant bubble activity in the must because it's making this cap float.
> 
> It's almost like a clearing agent has been added but ferment makes it float. Dead yeast lees are on the bottom so this is slightly different.
> 
> Thanks
> -johann.b



I did a little research, interesting process. One of the key "ingredients" for keeving appears to be extended periods of temps at 5 degrees C. Assuming you haven't been chilling your carboy for a week, it doesn't sound like you've happened along into that process. 

It sounds like it's fermenting, which is what you're shooting for, have you tried to stir that glob back into the wine or does it just keep forming?


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## jburtner

Thanks John! It has been cold down there lately. 45-50*F and the cap is very spongy. I did stir it up and the cap reforms quickly.

I recently added DAP Fermaid K and Goferm protect in the ec1118 starter. Anyway this stuff looks exactly like other photo's of Keeving. 

Good or bad - I'm planning to rack on Sunday - check gravity and PH. Would like to het some kmeta in there soon. 

Might start another couple batches - Merlot and Sauvingnon Blanc. I picked up some dried apricots to pitch into a cleared chardonnay just now on oak.

Cheers!
-johann


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## Johnd

jburtner said:


> Thanks John! It has been cold down there lately. 45-50*F and the cap is very spongy. I did stir it up and the cap reforms quickly.
> 
> I recently added DAP Fermaid K and Goferm protect in the ec1118 starter. Anyway this stuff looks exactly like other photo's of Keeving.
> 
> Good or bad - I'm planning to rack on Sunday - check gravity and PH. Would like to het some kmeta in there soon.
> 
> Might start another couple batches - Merlot and Sauvingnon Blanc. I picked up some dried apricots to pitch into a cleared chardonnay just now on oak.
> 
> Cheers!
> -johann



If your wine is in an area 45-50 degrees, you should put a brew belt on it or move it to an area to get the temps up above 70, it'll definitely help your fermentation along.


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## Mismost

Might start another couple batches - Merlot and Sauvingnon Blanc. I picked up some dried apricots to pitch into a cleared chardonnay just now on oak.

Cheers!
-johann

I bet you will like the apricots! I have used them in a Chardonnay and a Pinot Gris, we really like a hint of apricot. Now my Dad, he wants to be clobbered with apricot...so I use them in the primary and secondary...I really should just make him a straight apricot wine.


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## jburtner

This one is coming along. I ended up letting the spongy stuff sit and it eventually softened up and disintigrated into the mead. Cleared with chitosan and all the sediment compacted very nicely. Need to taste a glass and make some room for some oak. Think i'll vacuum rack back and forth a couple times to let the bubbles out...

Cheers!
-johann


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## jburtner

I tasted this just this morning and the apple flavor is really starting to come forward which is very nice. I had added some tannins a while back and was worried but that flavor is starting to mellow now and seems like it just needs some time. Have not oaked yet - just sitting there and getting older one day at a time.

Cheers!
-johann


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