# Vieux Chateau du Roi



## winemaker81 (Nov 12, 2018)

In another thread I was asked about a Vieux Chateau du Roi that I have in production. Since this may (or may not) turn into a lengthy conversation, instead of threadjacking I'm starting a new thread.

I started a *Winexpert Selection Vieux Chateau du Roi* at the beginning of October. So far it's progressing well -- I'm going to rack it today as there is a significant sediment build up. I'm following the kit instructions (with the proviso that timelines are minimums) and expect to bottle in early December. Or maybe late December, depending on free time around the holidays.

It's a medium bodied red and based upon tastings at rackings, I will enjoy this one. I don't think it's a long ager, but I'm going to leave it alone for a year (other than quarterly tests) and will try to reserve a few bottles for longer term aging. I made it more as a "drink now" wine to give other reds a fighting chance at aging.

I recently converted my original wine making site to a new one, and when moving my logs i realized this is the third time I've made this kit. Although the three instances are not the same kit:

1996 WineArt (my first wine kit)
2011 R J Spagnols Heritage Estates
2018 Winexpert Selection
In reading my logs I noticed 2 things:

Kit wines work better if I follow the instructions and don't treat them as fresh grape wines.
Kits have improved significantly in quality since my first kit 22 years ago.
I've also noticed that I don't like the R J Spagnols kits as much, excepting their dessert wines. My local shop has some kits on clearance so I'm going to pick up a couple (red and white) and see how they come out. Even if they don't turn out as good for sipping, they'll be fine for cooking wine.

EDIT: Added more detail regarding the kits, as WE has several levels.


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## tjgaul (Nov 12, 2018)

I'm finding that I really like GSM wines and thought that this might be similar. I noticed that Winexpert offers this "flavor" in 2 different levels. The Selection kit at 16L and the Vintner's Reserve kit at 10L. Does anyone have an opinion on either kit and/or how they compare?

The GSM I have made myself is the WE Vineyard Australian Grenache Shiraz Mourverdre which is only 12L, but comes with a skin pack. I have one batch that is 13 months old and is drinking pretty well and a 2nd batch that was started on the 4th of July and is still in a carboy. The Vieux Chateau du Roi has been on my wish list for a while. I was thinking it would be a good companion to the GSM.

Winemaker81 . . . thanks for launching the new thread.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 12, 2018)

Glad to be of service! This conversation deserved a new thread.

The larger volume WE kits are typically better, although I've found the basic kits are still pretty good. I'm making the higher end one, the Selection.

Racked it a short while ago. It had a surprising amount of sediment -- I used almost an entire bottle of pinot noir to top the carboy. I've had a few kits that seemed to have a lot of sediment. Kind of like when I purchased juice from the bottom of the tank -- I learned to get to the vineyard the day the juice was first available. Waiting until the last day was a mistake.

Appearance? The wine is very dark, it's indistinguishable from the elderberry sitting next to it. In the attached picture, the kit is on the right, with a dry elderberry to the left and a sweet elderberry in front.

Taste? It's medium bodied and certainly green (no surprise), and on the fruity side. I'm not sure what varieties are in it. However, I have expectations that it will make a good sipper and an excellent pasta wine. I can visualize it with lasagna. I like a heavy red with steak and this one may be too light for that, and too heavy for salmon. [Not that I'm going to let preconceived ideas stop me from investigating in detail!]


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 16, 2018)

I've made this kit several times. I've thought along the same lines as you - the last time I made this was in Januaury - and that was to give my other GSM - the limited release Winexpert Eclipse Nocturnal, a fighting chance at making it to a couple of years of age (I made two Nocturnals: One is sitting at 16 months the other at 14). Old Vieux is just a tad thinner than the Nocturnal, and the Nocturnal has a touch of Cinsault in addition to the GSM, and I feel is a obviously better representation of the style, but of course, it's a premium kit. The Old Vieux is what I drink the most by far. Still haven't tired the Australian GSM.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 16, 2018)

I'd add that I've sent emails to Winexpert begging them to consider making the Eclipse Nocturnal a regular in their lineup. Hope others do the same.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 16, 2018)

LouisCKpasteur said:


> I'd add that I've sent emails to Winexpert begging them to consider making the Eclipse Nocturnal a regular in their lineup. Hope others do the same.



I'd love to hear others impressions of the Eclipse Nocturnal, I was very excited about this kit when I got it. I still have it in the carboy and so far MMMEEEHHHH doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about it so far. It just does nothing for me. Almost disappointed by it.


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## pillswoj (Nov 16, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I'd love to hear others impressions of the Eclipse Nocturnal, I was very excited about this kit when I got it. I still have it in the carboy and so far MMMEEEHHHH doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about it so far. It just does nothing for me. Almost disappointed by it.



I decided not to even taste it until the 2 year mark, any eclipse red I have done has been Meh until about 20 months. I guess the other question cmason is do you generally enjoy GSM wines? I found I got caught in the trap of making all the limited editions just because they were limited editions, I am now being much more selective about what I make, of course I know I like a good GSM so I have high hopes for the Noctural.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 16, 2018)

Well, it's got me curious enough to hopefully open a bottle tonight at the 16 month mark. I'm very partial to GSM's myself.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 16, 2018)

pillswoj said:


> I decided not to even taste it until the 2 year mark, any eclipse red I have done has been Meh until about 20 months. I guess the other question cmason is do you generally enjoy GSM wines? I found I got caught in the trap of making all the limited editions just because they were limited editions, I am now being much more selective about what I make, of course I know I like a good GSM so I have high hopes for the Noctural.



I like pretty much any red wine, and GSM's are very tasty usually. Maybe I just expect to much from it this early.



LouisCKpasteur said:


> Well, it's got me curious enough to hopefully open a bottle tonight at the 16 month mark. I'm very partial to GSM's myself.



I do hope you give some feedback about it. I'm hopeful it is wonderful.


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## tjgaul (Nov 16, 2018)

cmason . . . I had the same experience with the RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan. Everyone raves about this kit & I know I like the component grapes, but at the first 3 month racking I found it to be worse than Meh. Certainly not big & bold. I am hoping that it is just a timing thing and that it really comes around in a few months. And I hope your Nocturnal wows you before too long. 

Time is often, but not always, the cure. I hope we're both believers in a few months.


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## ceeaton (Nov 16, 2018)

tjgaul said:


> cmason . . . I had the same experience with the RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan. Everyone raves about this kit & I know I like the component grapes, but at the first 3 month racking I found it to be worse than Meh. Certainly not big & bold. I am hoping that it is just a timing thing and that it really comes around in a few months. And I hope your Nocturnal wows you before too long.
> 
> Time is often, but not always, the cure. I hope we're both believers in a few months.


Tim, remind me if we have another NE meetup next year and I'll bring a (hopefully bottled by then) 29 month old WE SE Vieux CduR I have. I added a few lbs of Pinot Noir grape skins, but I doubt that changed the profile very much. Otherwise I followed the instructions supplied for the most part.

Edit: just tipped the carboy for a partial glass. This has really improved in my opinion, if I didn't actually pour the wine I'd think it came from a bottle of commercial wine, no kit taste evident to me. On the plus side it has a nice nose to it as well. Reminds me of a smoother version of a Chianti, which is probably why I chose the kit since I enjoy a nice cherry background flavor. This is a very nice wine. I'll surely make it again once I pay off the new wave of bills.


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## bstnh1 (Nov 17, 2018)

winemaker81 said:


> In another thread I was asked about a Vieux Chateau du Roi that I have in production. Since this may (or may not) turn into a lengthy conversation, instead of threadjacking I'm starting a new thread.
> 
> I started a *Winexpert Selection Vieux Chateau du Roi* at the beginning of October. So far it's progressing well -- I'm going to rack it today as there is a significant sediment build up. I'm following the kit instructions (with the proviso that timelines are minimums) and expect to bottle in early December. Or maybe late December, depending on free time around the holidays.
> 
> ...



I Made the WE Selection version of this kit a few years ago. It was an "OK" red, very drinkable, but not a favorite of those who tasted it. No one who tried it said "Wow, is this good!" It was just "OK". Three years of aging hasn't really improved it much.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 17, 2018)

ceeaton -- chianti, that's the best analogy I could make for mine. As I said, the green sample was surprisingly fruity. Not sweet (it's bone dry), but fruity. I'd like to know what this one will be like at the five year mark ... but I seriously doubt it has a chance of that! 

This is a wine I'll pop in the right circumstances. I expect friends who are not really red wine drinkers may like it.

I'm fighting down the expectation that the same kit will be the same from year to year. Sure, the vendors blend things to produce a consistent kit, but there's only so much they can do. If one year has better grapes, that year's kit will be better.

Beer is easy. Follow the recipe and the beer will turn out the same each time. Grapes ... not so much.

Chances are I'll do this kit again in a few years.


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## ceeaton (Nov 17, 2018)

Bryan, I made this one with about the same expectations as you did. A nice red wine for when you don't want anything really heavy, or as a wine for friends who aren't avid Cab Sauv or heavier red drinkers. Mine is still fruity (but bone dry), so I'm hoping it retains that for a few more years. We make a lot of pizza and pasta dishes with red sauce around here and I think it is going to be the perfect wine for those meals.

I might just get one to the five year mark, who knows. The older I get the easier it is to forget about things (whether on purpose or not).


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 18, 2018)

Okay, I uncorked a bottle of Nocturnal on which the yeast was dropped on July 31st, 2017. The raspberry and plum notes are there, the woodsmoke not so much, and nothing but the subtlest hint of the oaking regime as prescribed by the kit instructions. So I'd describe it as a bit fruit forwardy, just a little, with a nose that dissipates a little quicker than I'd like and a finish that lingers, but maybe not as long as I'd like. It went down sumptuously with some roast beef, of the North American Arby's variety. I like it better than old Vieux, and it's comparable to some of the cheaper Southern Rhones I've had. If it was in WE's lineup I'd definitely do it again based on the 16 month mark. We'll see what it develops into.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 18, 2018)

LouisCKpasteur said:


> It went down sumptuously with some roast beef, of the North American Arby's variety.



Now _that_ is a good line! 



> I like it better than old Vieux


Better than "old old"? This reminds me that saying "The La Brea Tar Pits" is actually saying "The The Tar Tar Pits."


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 19, 2018)

I know enough French that I shoulda known better.


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## cmason1957 (Nov 19, 2018)

I know little or no French, so I didn't catch the unintential fax pass.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 19, 2018)

LouisCKpasteur said:


> I know enough French that I shoulda known better.



Oh, I don't think there was anything wrong with what you wrote! What else could you say? The two "olds" were referring to two different things!

C.f. Torpenhow Hill : "Hill hill hill hill."


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 19, 2018)

The French are very testy about their appellations. So Vieux Chateau du Roi and the Eclipse Nocturne are, at least in the case of the former for sure, clever workarounds for Chateauneuf du Pape. I like how they're tety about their appellations, but this all starts with them swiping the Papacy from Rome and installing it in Avignon in the early 14th century - but whether it is the Chateau of the Pope (Pape) or the King (Roi) it is my favorite!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 19, 2018)

LouisCKpasteur said:


> The French are very testy about their appellations. So Vieux Chateau du Roi and the Eclipse Nocturne are, at least in the case of the former for sure, clever workarounds for Chateauneuf du Pape. I like how they're tety about their appellations, but this all starts with them swiping the Papacy from Rome and installing it in Avignon in the early 14th century - but whether it is the Chateau of the Pope (Pape) or the King (Roi) it is my favorite!



Since this picture is in my "wine pictures" folder, let's publish it again!


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## LouisCKpasteur (Nov 19, 2018)

Awesome pic. I hope to get to France next year. Though this first trip I probably won't stray far from Paris.


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## ceeaton (Nov 19, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Since this picture is in my "wine pictures" folder, let's publish it again!


That's a nice advertisement for UPS Worldwide deliveries. Maybe you can offer them the rights to the image and you could get a few cases of said wine out of the deal?

Don't those tires look a bit small on the "big brown truck".


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## winemaker81 (Nov 27, 2018)

I bottled Vieux last weekend. It's surprisingly tasty for a green wine -- cherry and blackberry notes.

Next task is to not touch it for 6 months, then test a bottle every 3 months. I'm planning to do the same with everything I bottled this fall -- the plan is to record tasting notes and have a solid record of how each wine progresses.


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## ceeaton (Nov 27, 2018)

winemaker81 said:


> I bottled Vieux last weekend. It's surprisingly tasty for a green wine -- cherry and blackberry notes.
> 
> Next task is to not touch it for 6 months, then test a bottle every 3 months. I'm planning to do the same with everything I bottled this fall -- the plan is to record tasting notes and have a solid record of how each wine progresses.


Good luck. I said I'd do that a few years ago, and I'm looking around for all of my notes, if you know what I mean.


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## winemaker81 (Nov 27, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> Good luck. I said I'd do that a few years ago, and I'm looking around for all of my notes, if you know what I mean.


I'm sporadic on keeping notes. However, I'm tracking things on my new web site so if I happen to record notes I'll be able to find them.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Dec 16, 2018)

Whether it's the Chateua du Pays or Winexperts Vieux Chateua du Roi one thing I've noticed is the non-listing of Grape Varietals used. Now a traditional Chateauneuf du pape can have up to 13 varietals in it, but rarely is it more than three or five. Does anyone know what's actually in the Chateau du Roi or is it a proprietary mystery?


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## winemaker81 (Dec 16, 2018)

I expect it's a mystery. I haven't found anything indicating what the constituent grapes are.


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## Cellar Vader (Jan 6, 2019)

Not to hijack, but since this thread is the most current one regarding the WE SE VCdR, I thought it best to tag along.
I started mine on Dec. 26th. This is my 10th kit wine in 12 months, and have so far been somewhat disappointed with the red blends. So...to help tone down the purported fruitiness I had kept reading about in my preliminary research, added 1 1/2 lbs of sugar to increase the ABV a bit (final is 13.5%.) After racking and clarifying I took a taste. NICE! But, as was the case in several earlier batches of red blends, the mouthfeel was just “flabby” for loss of a better term. So I added 2 tsp of tannin, let it rest 3days, and tasted it again today. HUGE improvement, but I know that only time will tell how this developes. On that note, it sounds like this particular kit drinks well young (6 months?) and doesn’t really develope much with additional years in the cellar. 
Question: Has anyone else tried “tweaking” this particular kit? And what were your results?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 6, 2019)

In general, I think most kits benefit from added tannin and oak. Also from barrel time, if you have a barrel. ABV increases may or may not help. Some of the higher end red kits can already clock in at 13-15%, so it all depends on where your starting SG is. The medium and lower end kits tend to be a little lower on the ABV side.


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## Cellar Vader (Jan 6, 2019)

Boatboy24 - Thank you for your input. I have yet to use additional oak, outside of what came in these kits, but would like to experiment that way since I do like a little oakiness in my wines. How much contact time would you recommend if I used a light-toast american oak spiral after my final racking? I dont want to overdo it!


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 6, 2019)

I haven't used spirals. I use barrels, or medium toast French cubes. Hopefully, someone with some spiral experience can chime in.


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## winemaker81 (Jan 7, 2019)

I don't see any hijacking -- we're talking Vieux so it's all good. And if we stray into tangents? This is a forum on the internet -- it would be bizarre if we didn't stray off topic ...

I didn't make any adjustments to my Vieux as it turned out as I wanted. I have a need for a quicker aging red, and this one fits the bill. If I wanted a heavier, longer aging red I probably would have purchased a different kit. Although I love heavy Rhones so the idea of a heavier version of this one is attractive.

But ya got me thinking -- it would be an interesting experiment to buy 2 kits -- make one "vanilla" and juice up the second one. Off the top of my head I would add tannin and age it with oak -- not sure how that would interact with the overall fruitiness of the wine. This last one bottled at 12.9% so I wouldn't chapitalize it; anything above 11% would be good for me.

I don't have experience with oak spirals, although with any oak product, surface area is key. The more surface area, the faster the oak will affect the wine. Google the spiral manufacturers and see if they offer guidelines.

In general, when aging on oak, test relatively frequently and remove the oak when you think it's close. More oak can be added later, but it's _really_ tough to remove oak flavoring ....

BITD oak barrels and oak chips were the available products. Now days we have a wider variety of products, including dust, cubes, and spirals. I'm wondering if the rough surface area of chips makes a difference in comparison to the relatively smooth surface area of cubes and spirals.


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## Cellar Vader (Jan 7, 2019)

Winemaker81 - Thank you! Good info. I'm "thinking" that since the powdered tannin that I added at clarification seems to have brought it to my likeness, maybe I shouldn't bother with add'l oak spirals at aging. I'm happy with the "feel" of it as it stands, of course it'll have to sit in order for that new kit taste to pass. 
I'm still a newbie, but excited about experimenting to get a kit where I like. Well see!


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## winemaker81 (Jan 7, 2019)

Glad to be of service!

If you're not "adjusting" a wine, you can bottle according to package directions. I tend to err on the side of more time than the kit directions indicate, but with modern fining agents a relatively quick time before bottling is fine. Wine ages faster in smaller quantities, so bottling early has an advantage.

But you're experimenting. I recommend letting it bulk age a couple of months then taste it again. If you don't have a wine thief, I recommend getting one. I have two -- a slim glass one that allows for retrieving sample quantities of wine, and a larger one (FermTech, I think) that is big enough to hold a hydrometer. Makes checking SG easy.

After a couple of months, if you are happy you can bottle as you see fit. If you think it needs the oak, you can add it then.

Here's an experiment: if you have a 3/3.5 gallon carboy -- add oak to the carboy and fill it with Vieux, then bottle the remainder. A year from now you can compare the two to see what you like.

My notes from my Vieux are *here*.


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## LouisCKpasteur (Jan 7, 2019)

This is my go-to table wine. So I still got a few bottles a two years, had one a couple of weeks ago, still seems to be improving.

I got another 12-15 bottles at the one year mark. I start drinking this kit a 7-8 months because it allows me to lay my hands off everything else. BIg big Rhone fan here. 

I've called what you describe 'flabby' as 'thin', and though that word is more appropriate to alchohol content that wasn't the case. Should take better notes on the aging process for this kit to determine if there is a particular time slot when it goes slack (bottle shock?).


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## Cellar Vader (Jan 7, 2019)

winemaker81 said:


> Glad to be of service!
> 
> If you're not "adjusting" a wine, you can bottle according to package directions. I tend to err on the side of more time than the kit directions indicate, but with modern fining agents a relatively quick time before bottling is fine. Wine ages faster in smaller quantities, so bottling early has an advantage.
> 
> ...



Yep, I have a Wine Thief. I do plan on aging this one in the carboy (first time doing this!) so that I can make adjustments (if needed) on all of the wine at once. There certainly is an advantage, though, of setting some "original" off to the side for future taste comparisons! Thx again!


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## Cellar Vader (Jan 7, 2019)

LouisCKpasteur said:


> This is my go-to table wine. So I still got a few bottles a two years, had one a couple of weeks ago, still seems to be improving.
> 
> I got another 12-15 bottles at the one year mark. I start drinking this kit a 7-8 months because it allows me to lay my hands off everything else. BIg big Rhone fan here.
> 
> I've called what you describe 'flabby' as 'thin', and though that word is more appropriate to alchohol content that wasn't the case. Should take better notes on the aging process for this kit to determine if there is a particular time slot when it goes slack (bottle shock?).



Thanks! I plan to give this a minimum of 6 mos. and see how it is at that time. Actually, I'm thinking around 9 mos. before I probably start hitting it hard, lol!


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## Cellar Vader (Jan 7, 2019)

winemaker81 said:


> Glad to be of service!
> 
> If you're not "adjusting" a wine, you can bottle according to package directions. I tend to err on the side of more time than the kit directions indicate, but with modern fining agents a relatively quick time before bottling is fine. Wine ages faster in smaller quantities, so bottling early has an advantage.
> 
> ...



P.S. - Thanks for sharing your note keeping on this batch. It's always helpful to see how other winemakers think, I feel!


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## winemaker81 (Jan 26, 2019)

Glad to be of service! I'm going to avoid touching the Vieux for another year or so. I'll post tasting notes when I do.

When I converted my old wine making site to the new one, I found that reading old notes to be valuable. Keeping consistently good notes is a great idea ... although tough in execution over the long term. But even inconsistent notes are better than none.


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## Cellar Vader (Feb 1, 2019)

I do have another question: I have had this wine on oak (2 Frenck Oak spirals, medium toast) for 2 weeks now. I have read that I should taste it every 2 weeks to see how it’s progressing, etc. I assume that I should stir the wine well so that I get a good representation, but in doing so won’t I be disturbing any sediment that has settled?


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## ceeaton (Feb 1, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> I do have another question: I have had this wine on oak (2 Frenck Oak spirals, medium toast) for 2 weeks now. I have read that I should taste it every 2 weeks to see how it’s progressing, etc. I assume that I should stir the wine well so that I get a good representation, but in doing so won’t I be disturbing any sediment that has settled?


I take a sample using my wine thief which is about a foot long and don't stir, just my preference I guess. You could always rack it off the sediment then test it, should get mixed up pretty evenly when racking. I only tested mine every couple of months or so unless I thought I was oaking it aggressively. I normally added one spiral, then if it needed more later on, added another. Once again, personal oak preference, yours most likely will be different.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2019)

How much sediment do you have? If you used the kit fining agent, that should be minimal. Either way, if the sediment is heavy, rack it. If it's a thin layer, stir carefully in the carboy -- sediment will settle again.

As I said previously, I have no experience with oak spirals so I can't offer guidance. However, based upon Craig's post I expect you can go a month with 2 spirals and test it then.

In general, rack the wine as little as possible. I've known a few who racked every month -- way too much chance of introducing a contaminant.


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## Cellar Vader (Feb 2, 2019)

winemaker81 said:


> How much sediment do you have? If you used the kit fining agent, that should be minimal. Either way, if the sediment is heavy, rack it. If it's a thin layer, stir carefully in the carboy -- sediment will settle again.
> 
> As I said previously, I have no experience with oak spirals so I can't offer guidance. However, based upon Craig's post I expect you can go a month with 2 spirals and test it then.
> 
> In general, rack the wine as little as possible. I've known a few who racked every month -- way too much chance of introducing a contaminant.



Thanks folks. Yes, this is a WE Selection VCdR kit, post secondary. In all my previous kits, there was VERY minimal sediment remaining after racking off the seconday anyway, so I’m not overly concerned, but this wine is sooooo dark (can’t even see a beam of light through it) I didn’t see anything settled at the bottom. So I just now “gently” stirred and sampled it. I can tell that the oak has “changed” it from an overly fruity aroma (which I don’t care for) to a light, almost smoky/dirt aroma. I don’t really detect an “oaky” aroma, so will see what happens in another 2 weeks. The instructions say that the spirals will be expended in 6 weeks, so I don’t expect any more benefit after that. 
Thanks again for your responses and input!


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2019)

Cellar Vader said:


> The instructions say that the spirals will be expended in 6 weeks, so I don’t expect any more benefit after that.


Good instructions from the vendor. I'd check in 2 and then 2 more. If you leave the oak in for 6 weeks, at that point you can decide if it's ready to bottle, or if it needs more.


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## winemaker81 (May 19, 2019)

I recently opened a bottle of the Vieux to see how it's progressing. I was planning on an early ager, but so far this one is not that. Definitely green, although very fruity. So far it's not a steak wine, but should make a good sipper.

I probably won't touch it again for 6 months -- I don't think it will be ready before then.


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## LouisCKpasteur (May 19, 2019)

I just Silver Medalled last night on a Vieux I commenced ferment on in May '17, It was lucky to survive that long as another Vieux was started after that and I've almost drank it all up. No tweaks and by the kit instructions on the Silver Medal winner.


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## winemaker81 (May 19, 2019)

Congrats on the win!


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## winemaker81 (May 21, 2019)

Yesterday I stopped at American Brewmaster (Raleigh NC) to purchase oak cubes for a merlot kit I recently started. While there I spotted another Vieux Chateau du Roi (from R J Spagnol) on clearance ... so I HAD to buy it. Yeah, I've got another Vieux in production. It will be interesting to see how it compares to this one.


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## LouisCKpasteur (May 22, 2019)

Thanks on the congrats. I'm interested too in how the RJS kit compares. I think I read somewhere it's being discontinued...


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## winemaker81 (May 23, 2019)

The RJS seems darker than the WE -- based solely on my memory. I'll do a running commentary on the results.


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