# Mega Purple and Glycerol



## Booty Juice (Aug 6, 2021)

I was in a local wine making supply house the other day (Paso Robles) and chatting with the crew (imagine that) when Mega Purple was mentioned, and it got me thinking: Why isn’t this product a home-gamer staple instead of the pariah it seems to be (there I said it).

I am quite sure that some Central Coast commercial wines in the $35 range use MP, if for no other reason than because they are buying the product lol.

I could name numerous examples of PN’s, Grenache’s, Sangio’s , etc. where I am very familiar with both the actual fruit and the wine – and the wine color bears no resemblance to the fruit. Just one data point - We opened a gifted bottle of local Sangio a couple weeks ago from a vineyard / winery I am very familiar with. I know the owner. She hosted my youngest’s wedding. I’ve made wine from her grapes ($2,000/ton), delicious and long-since consumed. Their PN’s and Sangio’s are around $35. The wine was INK. A Sangio. We then opened, side by side, a bottle made from premium Pritchard Hill fruit ($18,000/ton) - a mega extraction, 100 point, $300 bomb shell (also gifted as I believe expensive wines pair well with sheep). There was zero color difference. Mega Purple much? This is but one of many examples I could mention.

And for the home gamers using trucked-from-California “lugs”, “must buckets”, “frozen must buckets”, “juice pails”, etc. – consider this: You’re likely getting fruit from the same 8 to 10 tons per acre vineyards that supply the Gallo’s and Constellations of the world. To those boys, grapes are no different than water is to Coke – just a base ingredient from which to massively process and mass produce a perfectly homogenized product, year after year. If you are using these grapes and then comparing your wines to $25 commercial wines (why oh why) – you’ll need all the help you can get.

Speaking of help – glycerin. Let’s be honest – a lot of home made wines are “harsh”, “hot”, insert your own term. We’ve all been there. The easiest way to smooth out young wine is glycerol, and it is widely used commercially. A silky smooth 2019 for $25? Please. Hello glycerin, nice to see you.

The funny part? Both of these products are 100% natural to wine. Mega Purple is……….grapes. Nothing else. Glycerol is a natural, non-toxic byproduct of………..fermentation. I think it was AJ Massa who posted a picture of wine making additives: enzymes, nutrients, powdered tannins, lalozyme, reduless, etc. - I’m probably getting those wrong but the point is – it was quite the chemistry set.

This isn’t an endorsement of these products – I use virtually nothing in mine (the first part of that sentence is a lie). But - If you’re going to all that trouble, which is great, and you want commercial-style, inky, smooth young wine – why not use the two most effective products, both of which are natural to wine?


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## winemaker81 (Aug 6, 2021)

I have no problem using whatever tools are necessary to turn out a good wine.

I use glycerin -- the amounts typically sold in LHBS are small and quite expensive. I purchased a gallon for 25% of that price. Since I make liqueurs and use 1 oz/quart, it makes sense for me to buy the gallon. Adding 1/2 to 1 oz per gallon of wine makes a HUGE difference.

OTOH, I looked into Mega Purple out of curiosity. It comes only in large quantities and a very tiny amount is used at a time. From what I saw, it's not cost effective for most home winemakers. I figured a gallon would last me 5+ years, and I doubt it has that much shelf life.

While Mega Purple might have made a positive change in my 2019 wines, for 2020 I used Scottzyme ColorPro and got a good result.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 6, 2021)

Nice post.

I agree, it is surprising that MegaPurple has not found its way into the homewinemaking toolkit in a big way. I have used glycerol, but not often; more out of laziness than ideological purity. I use added tannins, etc. If MP were readily available to me, I would certainly find some uses for it, and not feel bad about it.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 6, 2021)

According to one source, Mega Purple retails for $125/gallon, and the dosage is 0.2% of the wine volume. That's:

1.3 oz for 5 US gallon carboy
3.8 oz for 15 gallon barrel
7.7 oz for 30 gallon barrel
15.4 oz for 60 gallon barrel

For the amount of wine I make, the gallon of Mega Purple would last 10 years.

Using the retail price, that's about $1.30 USD to dose a carboy. Mark it up to $3.25 to include packaging, and it probably will sell.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 6, 2021)

Because they only sell it in bulk like @winemaker81 pointed out. If they portioned it to market to home winemakers I’m sure it would be seen as an option by more people.

but until then— a side batch of Petite Verdot is a nice authentic substitute.


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## franc1969 (Aug 6, 2021)

After a different discussion about color enhancers, I bought concentrate from PIWine. Readily available if you want it. Mine hasn't made it to wine yet, didn’t need yet, but added on to an order. I had intended it for a pyment or to add color to cider or skeeter pee variation, if nothing else. Packaging costs, so 1oz for $5.99, 16oz $16.99 128oz $85.99. It freezes. Grape Skin Extract
Not "MegaPurple" or "MegaRed" as some commercial wines use, nor the branded European one. I believe the USA generic concentrate, probably similar specs. Obviously the others are targeted more towards specific colors.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 6, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> but until then— a side batch of Petite Verdot is a nice authentic substitute.


I won't argue that point. However, I used Scottzyme ColorPro last fall and got amazing results, and there are other color enzymes. I reserved 4 liter jugs of Merlot, Zinfandel, and a blend (equal parts Cab Sauv, Cab Franc, Malbec, Petit Verdot) -- in the glass they are visually indistinguishable. The blend _might_ be a bit darker.

I love threads like this as it spreads the word regarding our many options.


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## Booty Juice (Aug 6, 2021)

I guess I was under the mistaken impression that the consensus within the wine making / drinking community is that MP was “cheating”, the sports equivalent of steroids. It’s use is definitely kept under wraps among wineries.

Here, it comes only in 1 gallons or 5 gallons for assumedly a good reason – their customer base only buy IN SIZE (commercial).

Costs is always a legitimate concern, but in this case the cost per bottle of using MP for 4 carboys (100 bottles) is, what, $1.25 per bottle? I believe MP has a relatively short shelf life of around 3 months, certainly no more than one vintage.

And TBH, having never worried about nor altered the color of my wines, adding a cheap varietal never occurred to me. However, putting aside the flavor being altered, is there really much of a cost savings?


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## stickman (Aug 6, 2021)

Keep in mind that MegaPurple is a grape concentrate containing sugar as well as color, so using this product in the finished wine will require sorbate or sterile filtration. In contrast, the color concentrate from PIWine does not contain sugar.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 6, 2021)

Booty Juice said:


> I guess I was under the mistaken impression that the consensus within the wine making / drinking community is that MP was “cheating”, the sports equivalent of steroids. It’s use is definitely kept under wraps among wineries.


It's more of a mixed opinion among home winemakers. Different folks have different ideas regarding what is "cheating". My first impression was "say no", but I considered that if I started a commercial winery, I'd take a lot of measures to ensure that my wines sold and I didn't lose my investment. From that POV, Mega Purple is not really different from other types of additives.

When divided into smaller packages, the per use price for 5 gallons would probably be double or triple the bulk cost. If the shelf life is only 3 months (or so), the price goes up a bit more to cover losses. Let's say $4 USD.

Let's say a carboy of wine costs $125 to $150. An extra $4 is trivial if the wine is that much more visually appealing and good tasting. IMO it's fair to say that most of us take pride in our accomplishment, so an extra 3% of the overall cost is trivial to improve the result.

Petit Verdot and other varietals have been used for color improvement for many decades, maybe centuries. This is simply a new take on that technique. Although if I ran a commercial winery, I'd not talk about some additives.


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## Booty Juice (Aug 6, 2021)

stickman said:


> Keep in mind that MegaPurple is a grape concentrate containing sugar as well as color, so using this product in the finished wine will require sorbate or sterile filtration. In contrast, the color concentrate from PIWine does not contain sugar.



Correct, and the RS is one of the main benefits mentioned by a few of it's commercial users I've spoken to.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 6, 2021)

Booty Juice said:


> I guess I was under the mistaken impression that the consensus within the wine making / drinking community is that MP was “cheating”, the sports equivalent of steroids. I



Maybe the purists have to work during the daytime!


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## Cynewulf (Aug 6, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Maybe the purists have to work during the daytime!


Lol, yeah sorry to disappoint, @Booty Juice - I was busy with chores and errands today otherwise would have spoken up sooner! Happy for the folks that are going for a certain color to have the tools but also happy enough for my wine to be the color it wants to be. Really fun info - I love this thread and the different perspectives!


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 7, 2021)

My look at it is that too many of us don’t know what Mega Purple will do. If we had side by side comparisons in the local vinters club and it added value (blue ribbon quality), we could easily take a gallon of it and split it down into four ounce jars or two ounce bottles and make it an annual club purchase.
From a grocery point of view, if in the distribution chain everyone touching it doubles the cost, example the 14oz box of instant rice for $1.19 cost me about $.23 to send to a distribution center.


winemaker81 said:


> According to one source, Mega Purple retails for $125/gallon, and the dosage is 0.2% of the wine volume. That's:
> 
> 1.3 oz for 5 US gallon carboy
> 3.8 oz for 15 gallon barrel
> ...


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 7, 2021)

Booty Juice said:


> I guess I was under the mistaken impression that the consensus within the wine making / drinking community is that MP was “cheating”, the sports equivalent of steroids. It’s use is definitely kept under wraps among wineries.


?cheating? My mentality is everyone cheats, just with different tools. At state fair I listened to a judge say “Why would he put 1% raspberry in with 99% rhubarb?” , ,,,, my answer= for the color. This week I am putting 300gm of aronia berry in a strawberry, ,,, why? It is a “natural foods rules” source for tannin and shelf stable pigment. Of course I have FT blanc on the shelf and could cheat by adding it from a bottle and never list it on the ingredient statement.

(by the way the rhubarb was a blue ribbon)


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## winemaker81 (Aug 7, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> From a grocery point of view, if in the distribution chain everyone touching it doubles the cost, example the 14oz box of instant rice for $1.19 cost me about $.23 to send to a distribution center.


The cost doubles at every step in the chain. I took Ag class in high school, and it was disturbing to learn that the can, label, and marketing each cost more than the corn in a can of corn.

The idea of a local club buying a gallon and dividing it up sounds interesting. I'd do it like I did with glycerin testing -- bottle some with and some without, and compare in 6 and 12 months.



Rice_Guy said:


> My mentality is everyone cheats, just with different tools.


Let's take the word "cheat" out of the discussion. It's not cheating, it's using the available tools to improve the outcome. We each have different opinions regarding which tools we choose to use.


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## Booty Juice (Aug 7, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> Happy for the folks that are going for a certain color to have the tools but also happy enough for my wine to be the color it wants to be. Really fun info - I love this thread and the different perspectives!



100% - the color is the color.

Around middle school, I tasted my grammpa's wine and said "a little sweetness" to which he replied "yes, I prefer dry, but this year Mother Nature gave us sweet". The native yeast didn't quite finish, and that was fine.

I respect the commercial guys who use native yeast, of which there are quite a few around here, as the consequences for them are quite high - unlike for us home gamers. They're make a living, we're making something to drink.


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## Cap Puncher (Aug 7, 2021)

I


Booty Juice said:


> Speaking of help – glycerin. Let’s be honest – a lot of home made wines are “harsh”, “hot”, insert your own term. We’ve all been there. The easiest way to smooth out young wine is glycerol, and it is widely used commercially. A silky smooth 2019 for $25? Please. Hello glycerin, nice to see you.




I thought it was illegal for commercial wineries to add glycerin to there wines? I thought it was only available to home winemakers. 

Regardless, I do use glycerine to soften mouthfeel and elevate aroma. I try to estimate how much my yeast might have produced (ie 5-7.5 g/L) in a lot of cases. I then add back to the natural capability of of high glycerol yeasts to which is about 9-11 g/l to try to stay in to natural amount possible (usually adding 2-3 g/l). Glycerol can be overdone if adding too much. 

Everything time I add glycerin (glycerol) or think of it, I can’t help think of the Bush-Glycerine song



I did use the renaissance yeast strain “Bravo” this spring. It is a high glycerol yeast. The mouthfeel on that young wine is already very nice. No sulfur issues and increased glycerol naturally, thank you renaissance yeast, Bravo!

I’m not a “purist” but want to be if I can. 

Here is a nice link to glycerol production by normal yeasts 



https://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Wine-Expert-120321-WE-Glycerol-and-WInemaking.pdf


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## Booty Juice (Aug 7, 2021)

Removed and replaced.


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## Booty Juice (Aug 7, 2021)

Cap Puncher said:


> I thought it was illegal for commercial wineries to add glycerin to there wines? I thought it was only available to home winemakers.



Correct, and under the heading of “the views of Booty Juice, which are often insane, don’t reflect the views of Management”…..*I will add "I believe" prior to "it is widely used commercially".*

No worm-can-opening was intended.

And further disclosure: My brother the UCD certified winemaker disagrees with me about the commercial use of glycerin. He cites scientific studies that conclude that the naturally occurring amounts of glycerin in wine are insufficient to be detectable as “mouth feel” or RS and therefore, what I attribute to glycerin he puts down to a (magical) combination of RS, ethanol and acid.

I spend a fair amount of time in vineyards, cellars and talking to the people involved. Adulteration of wine to make it more palatable is nothing new and goes back forever.

Chaptalization is illegal in California. That said, in cooler years try finding 50lb bags of C and H.

Ok maybe that was a bit of pot-stirring…….

Bush's Glycerine.....not gonna lie, still one of my favorites.


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## Ajmassa (Aug 7, 2021)

Eh. Forget commercial. When it’s business there’s just too many variables that change the entire approach compared to the hobbyist.

and yeah, regardless of technicalities there is still a huge part of me that would feel like a liar w/ MP. Especially after getting there au natural. I’ve only had it once. Others were close. But last year I bucked up and got grapes from Wash St Red Mt. —-No comparison. Super Vibrant and inky- stains the glass. And the flavor? Gd! I look at it and take a sip & it’s kinda like, “ooooooh that’s right. _This_ is what wine is supposed to taste & look like. Dump all others! goin full winemaking-snob from now on!” Lol
But if all my wines looked like that? Dilutes the superiority of the ones that do. Less special. 

Profiles/varietals that don’t match the MegaPurple color?- eh. To each their own. A man can wear makeup, have hair extensions, fake nails, high heels, & fake breasts— and visually look like a gorgeous woman. But take a sip & you’ll notice the body doesn’t match the appearance-hiyoooo! 
No judgements. Just as long as the intention isn’t to pass off cheap table wine as expensive Napa cab ya dig? Keep it real. I like the idea of MP. But have hangups on using it personally


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## franc1969 (Aug 7, 2021)

I am not so much a 'purist' as a lazy person without much money. I minimize my additives if neglect can do the same. Time, I forgot, that's called Time.  Anyway, color concentrate and a cheap flavor bottle can make $3 gallon sweet cider look and taste good fermented? Awesome, and without the concerns I have about commercially available stuff. Kind of like making my own soda- I know it's soda and not great but know what's in it? Grape color, not artificial. The only reason I haven't used it is need. I will probably use it when I finish my lilac wine, because the rest of my family will do better with a slight color.
I wouldn't put this in grape wine, really, unless you were making the dark.red.wine from white.whites. But it just took a few drops to make a rosé out of water, so pretty economical if companies want to boost wines to where they think color should be. What I may make is no different than some of the questionable kits out there. Or like that Romanian 'pinot noir'.


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## Rocktop (Aug 7, 2021)

I have really enjoyed this thread, it connects back to a previous post I made about how the heck they can get Meomi Pinot Noir to look and taste like it does, especially when it is released less than 12 months after harvest. The answer came back resoundingly as MP. I did a bunch more reading on MP and found out just how prevalent its use is. I was abhorred and thought never would i ever use something like that, I am a "natural" wine maker and lover....
I also stopped buying the big california reds like apothetic etc. now knowing what was actually giving them their heft.

Well.... my thoughts changed over the past year. The biggest change was reading Clark Smith's 'Postmodern Winemaking" as recommended by another member here. It is a great read and dives deep into this topic and all the other large winery techniques like long hang time to get sweet jammy fruit, then reverse osmis, flash detente and Mega Purple just to name a few. He speaks at lengths about the juxtaposition of "traditional" or natural winemaking vs modern commercial scale winemaking. I won't rewrite it all but if "traditional" wine methods make traditional wine then "traditional" needs to be clearly defined and people purchase and enjoy them as traditional wines and compare those wines to each other. 
But what is the definition of "traditional", that is the rub. Just grapes and nothing else? maybe just grapes and commercial yeast? As he says, you can't be kinda pregnant. You are full traditional or not.

This has solidified in my mind due to 2 posts recently on WMT. First, a reminder to get your supplies for fall early. Good point, so checked my shopping cart: Fermiad O, Fermaid K, Luecfood, specialized renascence yeast, MLF yeast, Llalzyme and any other additions I may need to fix flaws like the H2S problems I had last year... 
The second post was about the use of glycerine. I did my blending bench test of my Bordeaux blend and man if only I could reduce the harshness of the young tannins and just a touch of sweetness would make it blend work so well. Researched back-sweetning and realized I didn't want to chance re-fermentation or geranium odours and then Voila! a thread about the benefits of glycerin, problem solved. Without a second thought, went for a quick drive to the wine shop and came home with a bottle of glycerin which will be used during tomorrow's bottling.

Point being, I considered myself a traditional wine kinda guy until I examined my practices and realized the jump between what I was adding as a hobbyist and what commercial wineries were adding like MP or other additives is non-existent. Especially when you consider their businesses or share holders count on it being perfect every year, cause let's face it, the general public wouldn't accept any less.

I believe over time, as my grape quality increases, I will begin to scale back my additives but for now I want to build a cellar of wine I enjoy drinking and watch my friends delight at. If I said to them, I only used "traditional" techniques instead of saying I used all the modern tools to my disposal, it wouldn't mean a thing to them. In the end it comes down to making the best wine you can that you enjoy and can share with pride. Now if my friends were all purists well maybe that changes things.
Sorry for the long ramble, I have given a lot of thought to this topic over the past year.

Great thread.
RT


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## Booty Juice (Aug 7, 2021)

Rocktop said:


> I have given a lot of thought to this topic over the past year.



You obviously have. Thank you for taking the time.

GREAT POST.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 7, 2021)

@Rocktop, excellent post. You nailed the reality of commercial wine production.

You also hit my POV on winemaking -- I'm going to make the best wine I can. No one complains when I pop a cork so I'm doing something right.

Personally, your thought about scaling back as grape quality increases is not going to work out. Mother Nature does her own thing and you can only control so much to produce quality. Some years, regardless of what you do, the quality will not be what you want. So you'll continue to make good wine by whatever method _you_ feel appropriate. Kudos!


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