# Hey...my arm is sore!



## ljcjd (Apr 18, 2005)

How long do you mix this stuff? I've had the drill mixer going
and when it's too hot I use the loong spoon. After 30 minutes no
sign of foam giving out. What's up oh all knowing gurus?


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## AAASTINKIE (Apr 18, 2005)

My kit wine says mix for 2 minutes, then wait 15 minutes and mix again,
do this 3 times, maybe you need to wait in between stirrings.


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## ljcjd (Apr 18, 2005)

Lifting heavy things sounds really good to me! Daaaah!
Maybe I should wait 15 minutes. My "kit" doesn't say that but I
know you have some real experience at this...thanks I'll sit back...


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## Joseph1 (Apr 18, 2005)

Laurie,


Temperature also has an effect on the release of the CO2. More gas will be released when the wine is at 75 degrees than will be released at 65 degrees.


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## AAASTINKIE (Apr 18, 2005)

ooopppssss, don't cofuse me with someone who knows what they are doing,
I just started this wine making 2 months ago, just a fast starter..lol


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## Hippie (Apr 18, 2005)

If you are stirring and stirring and not getting much foam, you probably were smart and have been stirring all along during fermentation. Good job. You should also do the shake it up in a bottle test.


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## ljcjd (Apr 19, 2005)

I gave up "defizzing" last night. I'm a wimp and go to bed early. I put the air lock back on and will stir again tonight waiting between each 2 minute stir. I am going to leave it in the carboy while I'm on vacation. From what I'm reading I sounds like I can do that. (after defizzing and capping it off with wine ).


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## MedPretzel (Apr 19, 2005)

Yes, you can leave your wines a long time like that. Just make sure you have enough water in your airlock before you go. If you are gone for longer than 4 weeks, then you are a very lucky person.



No, seriously, if you are gone for longer than 4 weeks, make sure you have a person to just check on the water levels of the airlocks.


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## ljcjd (Apr 19, 2005)

Thanks for the advice! I WISH I could leave for 4 weeks...no way. Thanks again...Laurie


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## ljcjd (Apr 19, 2005)

Here I am again whineing ....What the heck am I doing wrong or do I
have errroneous expections? I have been whipping my wine with a
drill for 3-4 minutes every 15 minutes and still do not have "still"
wine. I have about 5 inches down from the bung (SP?) and am
faithfully whipping up the mixture for about 3 minutes then waiting 15
to 20 minutes to start again. It foams up to and into the lover level
of the "bung". Last night I was told I was "whipping" too long
and not resting enough so I've modified my approach. Do you all
de-gass for this long? I'm leaving for vacation onTuesday and
need to de-gas before I top it off and hang out..fishing in the Abacos
for 10 days. The temperture is around 70-72 degrees. Hey
Gureus...help me out please. Thanks! Laurie


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## geocorn (Apr 19, 2005)

I would give it a rest until after vacation. As much as you have stirred, you should have the CO2 out by now.


When you get back from vacation, use your wine thief to take a sample. Put the sample in a wine glass and swill it around really hard. If you don't see any bubbles, you are good to go. You should also taste it. If you still have too much CO2, it will taste fizzy.


I wish I was closer to see for myself.


As an aside, I am starting to question the quality of the Whip de-gasser. If anyone has any thoughts about it, please post them.


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## ljcjd (Apr 19, 2005)

Hi George..."I'm not worthy"...you're the best for answering so
fast...I'm really surprised that I still have such substantial
foam. I also don't see a far reaching vortex. This is a real
issue for me because I'm still a 16 hour a day worker and time is
really an issue. I just can't believe I've been working at
this for hours and there is still substantial fizzing. I wondered
if the "bung" restricted the air flow so much that that the co2
couldn't escape. I have so much time invested I'm hanging in there
but...wow...is my "arreau" (sp) restricting the dissapiation of co2?


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## ljcjd (Apr 19, 2005)

I'm giving it one more shot tonight then an going to bed ( wimp that I
am ). I can't figure this out but I'll keep "whipping" it for 2-3
minutes every day intervals at 15 minutes when I think of it and then
leave on my vacation. I can't figure it out but will hope for the
best. Thanks Laurie


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## geocorn (Apr 19, 2005)

Laurie, You are worthy, I think the problem is either with the drill or the whip. You should be getting a vortex in the wine. If not, you will not get the CO2 out. Are you using a battery powered drill or electric. Some of the battery powered drills do not have enough power to stir the wine properly. I use an electric drill as my battery drill barely moves the wine.


I still vote on giving it a rest until you get back from vacation. The CO2 is not going anywhere and it will not adversely affect your wine, unless you bottle it. When you get back, you will have the Fizz-x to use. With a good drill, the fizz-X WILL degass your wine.


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## ljcjd (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm taking your advice and capping it off until I return. I am using a power drill. When I said I wasn't getting a sufficient vortex I meant a deep one that I could see it picking up the particles on the bottom of the carboy. I use the long spoon to "unsettle" the bottom and then the power drill. Maybe it needs to set a while....thanks


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

ljcjd... i'm having the same problem... i've been whipping mine for the last two weeks, (6 days total of whipping for 3-4 hours at a time)... i junked the wine whip to try a mixx-stir, but same results... if i stir at the bottom, it's fine, when i bring the mixxstir toward the top of the carboy, foam comes up every time... i think i have a carboy of CO2 disquised as wine... what is the Bottle test??? i shook store bought wines, and even they bubble when i shake them, even though they are flat wines.... also i pulled out a bottle and a half of wine from my carboy last night, if i am going to degass every night, do i need to top off every night or will it be ok not to top off for the next few days???


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## AAASTINKIE (Apr 20, 2005)

Lauri, you seem to be working way to hard, this wine is done fermenting isn't it. (what step are you in?)


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

i was also reading about the vortex, i thought when i started to get a vortex, i was supposed to reverse the drill in the opposite direction... is this true, or should we allow the vortex to continue to drive off CO2 ??? i feel your pain and frustration Laurie... i need to ice down my shoulder, or i might have to get tommy john surgery!!!


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## geocorn (Apr 20, 2005)

Something is wrong here. I am going to call Winexpert today and see what they have to say.


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## Goslin (Apr 20, 2005)

ljcjd, particles on the bottom? It sounds like you need to rack it and
let it settle for at least another 30 days. If after 30 day you see
more sediment on the bottom rack again and let settle for another 30
days. Do this until sediment free. From the sound of it you still have
some active yeast, so you may consider adding campden when you rack to
kill the yeast. My advice could be way off for a kit so follow their
instructions.


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

i think Lauri and i have the same problem, i am making a creshendo syrah kit... but if i understand her correctly, and speaking on my wine, the fermentation is complete, its just the degassing that seems to be never ending


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## ljcjd (Apr 20, 2005)

cbwenger....you've made me laugh...I understand the surgery thing...I'm sweating way too much. I'm sure George will figure it out for us. I understood the vortex issue like you did ie: mix in one direction then the other in order to get the co2 out...on high then low then high etc. I even tried to use the drill without the rubber bung on to get more exposure to the air. I also get much more foam at the top of the carboy. Last night I got very concerned because the foam was actually seeping into the bung. I don't think I want my electric drill interacting with the liquid. Now on my kit directions it said in order for mywine to clear I had to stir up any "sediments or particals" for the fining process...soryy I'm at work with-out my instructions with me so I'm working off memory. I can't figure it out.


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## ljcjd (Apr 20, 2005)

Yes, I'm done with the fermenting process....the de-gassing process is the problem.


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

thats how i read the directions also, i actually finished the clarifying stages and still have fizzy wine (28 days later...actually now 42 days later... and it cleared great... so i don't have sediment kicking around in mine since i already racked it... you're sediment will settle and get left behind next time you rack it also... so i wouldn't worry about that)... just this dag gone FOAM!!!! FOAM, and more FOAM!!!!!!


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## ljcjd (Apr 20, 2005)

Last night my two dogs were siting next to me and my 88 year old father came into the kitchen and watched me drilling, setting the timer, waiting 15 minutes and drilling again. All three of them had this dumb-founded look on their faces....kind of like "has she finally totally flipped out???" I admit, I'm obsessed now. I will get rid of this foam...it will not get me Thanks for the laugh


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## geocorn (Apr 20, 2005)

OK, I just got off the phone with LD Carlson who is my distributor for the WE kits. Here is the "official" recomendation:


1. Stir until the foam almost reaches the top of the carboy and stop.


2. Wait until the foam goes away and stir again. Once again, until the foam gets close to the top of the carboy.


3. Wait until the foam goes away and stir again. At this point, it should be taking longer and longer for you to create a lot of foam. If you have stirred for over 1 minute and the foam has not reached the top, stop anyway.


4. Keep repeating step 3 until you create less than 1/2 inch of foam. It seems it is virtually impossible to get rid of all of the foam. Everytime you stir you will get some foam. The objective to get rid of the majority of CO2, not necessarily all of the foam.


I hope this helps, but if anyone is unclear, please post your question.


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## ljcjd (Apr 20, 2005)

Hi George, I have to tell you...I am not generating a small amount of foam. I'm talking the full 5-6 inches up to and into the bung in very little time (1 minuteor so +/-), I'll time it tonight just to keep you informed. I was going to lay off, cap it and not stir for a while but got involved in this conversation. Like I said, I'll time it tonight and let you know...Thanks


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## AAASTINKIE (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm starting to wonder if the problem is CO2 or the power drill. I stirred my Sauvignon Blanc kit like the directions said too and maybe one extra time, but I never had any foam but maybe a few bubbles on the top of the wine. I just used a plastic paddle. My kit was ready to bottle on the 9th and I will get to it as soon as I can, maybe tomorrow, I guess I will taste it to see if I detect CO2 in it after I rack it to the bottling bucket.


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## ljcjd (Apr 20, 2005)

AAA, please post you results. Tonight I'll start with the spoon and then go to the drill. Thanks Laurie


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

if you think your father and dogs looked at you funny, thats better than the look i get from my girlfriend... she won't come visit until i'm done degassing... its been a lonely 2 weeks... i'm the same too Lauri, it takes me about 20 seconds to fill it up with foam (we're not talking a small amount), and i started to wait until it settles, and 3-4 hours later its was still the same, but on the bright side, my drill battery finally dies after several hoursso iget togo to bed at night,maybe i should have invested in 2 dogs intead of the wine, they seem more manageable


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

i will say this... after two weeks of doing this... the wine is not nearly as fizzy, but still fizzy nonetheless


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## masta (Apr 20, 2005)

Two weeks of degassing? You say the wine is fizzy can you explain this some more?


The wine will foam with vigorous stirring even if the dissolved CO2 is long gone.


I use a mix-stir and when I degas I stir for 1 or 2 mins and then let the foam settle and repeat this no more than 4 cycles. Getting a good vortex and reversing the direction of the drill helps force the gas out.


The wine can only hold a certain amount of dissolved CO2 at atmospheric pressure. The vigorous stirring is the motive that forces the CO2 out of solution.


It is quite possible that all the stirring is actually put air into the wineand this is causing the foaming.


My advice......stop stirring and let the wine settle for 2-3 weeks for fines to settle out and then take a taste.


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## cbwenger (Apr 20, 2005)

that sounds like great advice.... it makes sense, because i have been stirring like crazy... if i have too much oxygen in it, should i add a metabisulphite, or anything else to prevent the oxygen from ruining the wine???


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## masta (Apr 20, 2005)

I wouldn't add anything yet but I knew this question would come up so let me do some more research on this.....not sure if all the stirring will effect the amount of free SO2 enough to cause problems.


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## Hippie (Apr 20, 2005)

I don't know. I don't really agree, but I am not disagreeing either. I am wondering how warm or cold the wine is. Another thang I know is that cb doesn't have a Fizz-X. That wine needs to be 74*F or close and a vortex needs to be created each time the wine is stirred, with an up and down motion added to it, or at least start dep, and pull it upwards. I am perplexed at the thought of stirring so much and still getting foam. I am leaning toward it is not degassed properly. I could be wrong.


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## masta (Apr 21, 2005)

Here is some more advice from Tim Vandergrift and the key here is the fizzy puff not foam:


"Try puttin a small sample in a sealed jar, shake it like crazy, and see if it makes a fizzy 'puff' when you open the jar again. That's a good way to check for dissolved gas"


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## masta (Apr 21, 2005)

*ljcjd and cbwenger could you please let me know exactly which kit you are making and having trouble with degassing. I need to get info on what the free SO2 should be and then calculate how much sulfite you might want to add to bring it back up to the proper levels before bottling. *

*Unless you have a sulfite testing kit which would take the guess work out of this!*

*It is quite possible that the excessive stirring you both have been doing has removed up to 30 ppm of the free SO2....in this case you definitely would what to add more to protect the wine.*

*....relax we will get this figured out...



*


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## cbwenger (Apr 21, 2005)

thanks masta... i'm using a creshendo santa ynez valley syrah kit... i pulled some out into a bottle so i could degass, and when i went to pour it back in a had a sneak sip (or 6 or 7) and it was good and flat... it had been in a bottle for 2 days, and my carboy was not topped off for those 2 days either... will any of that make a difference.... also with the bottle test, if it makes a puff sound when i open it, does that mean there is or is not CO2 in the wine (no puff sound is good right???)... Country wine, the temp is 68-70 and i would get a vortex within 5-10 seconds of mixing, as soon as a saw the vortex, i would reverse... and i think for some reason everytime Lauri and I would get close to the top it would fizz or foam like crazy... last night i followed Masta's directions, but did not bring the stir to the top of the carboy, just kept making vortexes and reversing... topped off and will check in 3 weeks


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## masta (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes no puff when opening the bottle after shaking means no CO2 and it is good.


Pulling the stirrer to the top of the carboy I believe is the issue with creating foam....no need to pull it up at all. The stirring action is what makes the dissolved gas come out of solution so keep your stirrer at the bottom 1/3 of the carboy when stirring.


I will follow up with sulfite issue soon!


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## Tim Vandergrift (Apr 21, 2005)

Just a quick redux of the stirring issue for my (Winexpert) kits:



<ul>
[*]If you've fermented at the right starting volume, the right
temperature, and you've achieved the recommended specific gravity
levels, then you'll be able to stir the wine to de-gas within the
time-frames specified in the instructions. 


[*]If the wine was started at anything other than the full 6
US-gallons (23 litres) or it was fermented cooler than 68 F, or if your
gravity readings were not at or below the recommended levels when you
did the process, you will not experience consistent success.
[*]You only need to stir a Winexpert kit four times. 


<ul>
[*]On day one, you have to beat the snot out of the must to mix it
properly. A good, arm-cracking one minute stir to froth it up and mix
the juice and water will get you off to a good start and a thorough
fermentation
[*]On fining/stabilising day, after you've double-checked the SG, then you can first stir the kit without adding anything--and without racking it off the sediment!</span>
(Unless it's a Crushendo kit, but that's covered in the
instructions--no racking for any other kit. If you choose to rack it,
you will not experience consistent results. This first stirring
will be to greatly de-gas the wine, prior to adding any of the fining
agents or stablisers. Beat the hell out of it, for one full minute. Use
a watch or clock--one minute is a lot</span>
longer than most people think. If you can scractch your head with your
stirring hand after that one minute, you haven't stirred hard enough.
It should be an all-out blizzard of effort that costs you all of your
strength, and you should see spots in front of your eyes (see why I
tell people to buy a drill-mounted stirring whip?)
[*]Add the sorbate and the sulphite, and stir again, for one full
minute. This time you may break one or two small bones in your stirring
arm, but don't slow down--if anything, stir harder. 


[*]Add the fining agent and the F-Pack (if the kit has one) and
stir for one more full minute. Have the paramedics standing by with a
bag of ice to carry your stirring arm to the hospital where it can be
re-attached. Top up with water and call it a day. 


[/list]
[/list]
Now, if you have fizzy wine after this regimen, you don't have a
stirring issue. You have eiither got an incomplete or ongoing
fermentation, or you're mistaking foam for fizz, or you may have an
inicipient lactic acid bacterial infection that is making a bit of CO2
in the wine. 



The amount of stirring described will reduce SO2 slightly in the kit:
however, the amount it is reduced by is minimal, because rather than
uptaking oxygen during this process, the wine out-gasses CO2, which
actually scrubs some of the oxygen out of the wine. 



If you stir at a time when the wine is not saturated with CO2, you may
experience reduced SO2 and potentially expose the wine to oxidation.
But then, why are you stirring wine if it's not fizzy? 



Hope this helps outl



Tim Vandergrift

Technical Services Manager, Winexpert Limited.


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## geocorn (Apr 21, 2005)

Thank you, Tim, for the "WinEXPERT" advice. As you can see, we have been having some difficulties with this topic. Your comments are going into my next newsletter. *Edited by: geocorn *


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## masta (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes................ thank you Tim for the help and the humor!


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## ljcjd (Apr 21, 2005)

Masta, I'm sorry I'm late getting into this. The kit I'm using is a Selection Series Merlot. I'm on the run and will catch up on the posts after 5:00...Thanks Laurie


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## cbwenger (Apr 21, 2005)

thanks Tim for the informative post... so if in 3 weeks (4-5 weeks for lauri I think)its still fizzy, then it must be an incomplete fermentation or CO2 producing bacteria... if it is flat, than that means anytime in the last 2 weeks i must have gotten out the CO2, but i might have stirred non-fizzy wine after the first day or two because i confused foam for fizz... which i guess still leads me to wonder if the wine will have oxygen damage and if i should add a metabisulphite or anything else??


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## Hippie (Apr 21, 2005)

Wonderful tutorial! I got alot out of that and am glad to have learned a little more about making kits. Thanks Tim!


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## ljcjd (Apr 21, 2005)

Tim, Your humor had me laughing so hard I about had tears in my
eyes. Thanks for the entertaining and informative tutorial.
I do have to point out that in the instructions #3 highlighted in item
#B they unequivically say:

"...Vigorous stirring is required during this stage. Without
vigorous stirring gas in the wine will prevent clearing. At each
stirring, whip the wine until it stops foaming......" then in item II.
"...Stir vigorously for another 2 minutes to drive off CO2 gas. (See
note above: your wine may not clear if this stirring is not vigorous
enough.)" Those instructions sure made me realize in no uncertain
terms to whip the H-LL out of the wine untill it quit foaming. After
coming home and reading your post...along with the others I stirred it
once with a spoon, tried the "puff test" and tried a bit of the
wine. Although it still foams and I'm sure would still foam if I
hooked up the dreaded drill, it is smooth with no fizzy bubbles in the
wine. Not wanting to push my luck any further, I put water in it to cap
it off and will leave it for two to three weeks. As for cb's
posts, I have exactly the same concerns and adopt his response as my
own (thanks cb!). I feel like I've been attending a wine
making seminar I've learned so much...including how to use an electric
drill. Thanks Laurie


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## geocorn (Apr 21, 2005)

I think I can safely say that we all learned a lot with this post! I know I have a new insight regarding wine making processes that I have come to take for granted. Considering I am starting my own video of the process, things like this are extremely important to me and will be thouroughly addressed.


I want to thank everyone that participated in this discussion. Sorry it took so long to get the "authoritative answer."


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## ljcjd (Apr 21, 2005)

Hey George, you guys have been terrific to deal with. I can't
wait to fire up my second carboy and the pinot you just sent me.
I have a feeling it will go a little smoother...and if not, I know
where to get help. CB and I will also compare our notes I'm
sure. I HAVE FAITH!


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## masta (Apr 21, 2005)

Amen brothers and sisters.....we are one with the Winexpert Master!


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## Goslin (Apr 21, 2005)

cbwenger said:


> which i guess still leads me to wonder if the wine
> will have oxygen damage and if i should add a metabisulphite or
> anything else??





If it were me, just to be on the safe side I would add at least half
the campden as normal and then let "calm" for a while(couple to three weeks atleast).Then rack,
and then three weeks after that rack again adding sulfites just before bottling.

Thats just me though and I know NOTHING about DOing IT from a kit.

But, and I'm sorry to say it this way, But I'm glad for your misshap
(Not for you personally) But it's a good learning experience that
others can learn from when they read your posts and the replies.



It's all getting locked into my brain thats fer sure







I am planning on doing some kits from Fine Vine Wines,, thing is ,,, I'm just to poor right now to do it.

Tax time you know, it wiped me out





*Edited by: Goslin *


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## geocorn (Apr 21, 2005)

Goslin,


I don't think you are alone with the tax bite. Sales have really been off since April 15th. We were really rockin' until tax day, then sales took a dive. Starting to see a little pick up today.


The stirring is important whether you make wine from a kit or scratch. Either way, you have to get the CO2 out of the wine.*Edited by: geocorn *


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## AAASTINKIE (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm pretty sure my white wine I bottled today was free of CO2, but I
topped off with a measuring cup and dumped the last of the wine into it
to fill the last bottle from the cup, the bottle had a few inches of
foam just from the wine splashing into it, I also think new wine from
kits has a flavor that tastes like I think CO2 would be.


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## cbwenger (Apr 22, 2005)

thanks everyone, this has been a wonderful learning experience... great post Lauri... i'll let everyone know in 1-2 years if there was any oxygen damage



... because it is a kit, i'll probably avaoid the campden tablets and just add some metabisulphite and keep in the carboy for another 2-3 months, test, then bottle unless anyone can think of anything better... any recommendations on how much metabisulphite to add ??? (and i don't think Lauri needs to add any extra since she isstarting theclearing stage--because i think she just added some before stirring as opposed to my waiting a month then stirring, correct???)


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## geocorn (Apr 22, 2005)

Normally, I just add 1/4 tsp of Potassium Metabisulfite, but since you are concerned about the oxygen and plan to age it for 1-2 years, I would up the dosage to 3/8 tsp. A little sufite goes a loonnnng way.


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## ljcjd (Apr 22, 2005)

CB...one to two years...no way! These are "kits"! We're
supposed to be able to enjoy them waaaayyyy sooner then that. I hope
you get to enjoy the efforts of your labor and report back within a few
months. I'm starting a new "kit" when I return from vacation
then... I might start one of the mead receipes I see posted ( Masta and
AAA...watch out). I think we should do a 2 week "tasteing" and
report back to our esteemed collegues how the "brew" is coming
along. All kidding aside...what we've all learned is important
and I think the other amazing vinters on this site really want to know.
Besides that...I need my family to realize I have not "flipped out" all
this sweating was for a reason...the dull, blank look on their faces
was unjustified...they should have had faith and trust in my
journey...... even though it appeared insane. Besides all that,
we need to help George out on his video relating to newbies. You
know, sometimes, when people do something on a regular basis it becomes
route and they (the pros) forget how really confusing and ambigous the
terms they use can be. I, personally am a creature of percision
and a victum of vocabulary. I basically do what I'm told without
discretion. so anyway...thanks for having my back on this one
CB...without you having the same experience and willing to keep
parcipating in the thread, I may have let it go...given up and moved
on. Because we kept at it...we had these really amazing people helping
us out with professional advice which has motivated me to stay with a
really fullfuling intellectualy challanging hobby I can share with
family and friends. (I wish there was "spell check" on these
posts) Thanks everyone L.J.C..Laurie


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## masta (Apr 22, 2005)

On the top of the reply box click the spell checker icon






It will ask you to download "iespell" then you be all set.






If you plan to make mead you will need to age at least 1 year!*Edited by: masta *


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## ljcjd (Apr 22, 2005)

Masta..I'm not willing to bbe older Oh...you mean the wine? OK
Peachy...Thanks so much gruru, I'm in!!! Thanks


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## ljcjd (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't have a reply box...just a post a reply box and that shoots it out without edit.


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## masta (Apr 22, 2005)

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</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>You don't see all these icons on top of your post reply box? *Edited by: masta *


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## Hippie (Apr 22, 2005)

LMAO


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## cbwenger (Apr 23, 2005)

Laurie i couldn't have stated it better... thanks for suffering with me, and thanks to all the experts and opinions... and i'm aging it 1-2 years because thats what the instructions say.... my other kit, which i had the same problem, (or not a problem that i thought was a problem) will be ready in 3-6 months (creshendo Woodbridge Cab), so i will let you know how that one turns out..... Thanks a million!!!!


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## masta (Apr 23, 2005)

You will definitely be rewarded with the true quality of the Crushendo or other bold reds by aging them longer!


Make some other wines that are ready to drink early and hold off on the others.......


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## geocorn (Apr 23, 2005)

Masta is sooooo right. These kit wines, especially the Crushendo's will age beautifully. Make some less expensive wines to make sure you stay out of the "great stuff"!


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