# Numbers looking good at crush?



## jsbeckton (Sep 20, 2019)

Just picked up 3 lugs of Lodi Cab for my 2nd ever all grape batch. Did a Chilean Merlot in the spring and had trouble with acid and pH so was really wanting to avoid adjustments this time if at all possible. Think I am In good shape but open to opinions:

25 Brix
pH=3.5
TA=0.6

Only thing I added so far is Lallyzme EX and plan to pitch yeast before I go to bed along with opti-red, yeast nutrient and maybe some fermentation tannins.

Will add VP-41 when cap forms.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 20, 2019)

Provided they taste good, which I would be shocked, if they didn't. I wouldn't change anything. If you did, you would probably make the numbers worse.


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## jsbeckton (Sep 20, 2019)

I don’t have the palate or experience to gauge how the final wine will be but the grapes and juice tasted excellent and looked great as well.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 20, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> I don’t have the palate or experience to gauge how the final wine will be but the grapes and juice tasted excellent and looked great as well.



If they taste good going into fermentation, step one can be marked off as successful.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 20, 2019)

The number look great to me.


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## stickman (Sep 20, 2019)

Not too often you get away without having to adjust something, looks good to go.


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## jsbeckton (Sep 20, 2019)

On a related note. My crusher/destemmer removes about 90% of the stems but there are typically a few chunks here or there that I tend to spend time picking out most of them but wondering if I’m wasting my time. Do you guys worry about what makes it through the crusher or are you satisfied that it get 90% and that good enough?

For reference, the stems were green and not brown.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 20, 2019)

Numbers are just about perfect. I'd hold off on the nutrient until 'the onset of fermentation' - when things start bubbling pretty good or you've got a cap forming. As far as removing stems, unless they're sitting on top after they come out of the crusher, I don't bother. Usually, when I'm doing punchdowns, I might remove one or two though.


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## jsbeckton (Sep 28, 2019)

Ok, so just pressed on day 8. Updated numbers:

SG=0.998
pH=3.3
TA=0.86

So looks like the acid increased during fermentation and now is on the high side and it does taste tart.

Should I just wait and see how MF goes before doing anything else?


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## stickman (Sep 28, 2019)

I'm surprised the TA is that high. If it were me, I would just run the ML as is, it will just take a bit longer at a 3.3 pH. Acid adjustment to taste can be done later during bulk aging.


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## jsbeckton (Sep 28, 2019)

Hmm. Just recalibrated my pH meter and checked again. Still getting about the same reading.

Note I also calibrated my meter and did 2 tests for the original TA. Is it odd for it to go up that much during fermentation?


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## stickman (Sep 28, 2019)

Dissolved CO2 is an acid and can cause false high results when trying to do a TA test right after fermentation. The last of the sugar is probably still fermenting, so hold off until completion and fully degas the sample before the test.


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## jsbeckton (Sep 28, 2019)

I actually tested it again after degassing thinking the same thing but results didn’t change.

Speaking of this...how do you guys degas samples? I tried adding a few ounces to a small water bottle and shaking it up but I’m not too confident this is really getting all the gas out....being very similar to the method I use to carbonate beer samples...


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## stickman (Sep 29, 2019)

Warm the sample and bubble with air from fish tank air pump. If you have a vacuum pump or even a Vacuvin, putting the sample in a split and pulling vacuum and shaking is another option.


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2019)

It looks like your starting grapes were perfectly in the bullseye center. I have not seen acid change that much through fermentation before. 

I also don’t use additives (Lallyzme EX, opti-red, fermentation tannins) and curious why you added these things?


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## jsbeckton (Sep 29, 2019)

NorCal said:


> It looks like your starting grapes were perfectly in the bullseye center. I have not seen acid change that much through fermentation before.
> 
> I also don’t use additives (Lallyzme EX, opti-red, fermentation tannins) and curious why you added these things?



My experience is limited but the MoreWine manual for reds suggests it improves color, mouthfeel and fruit flavors. Also, these additives have also been mentioned frequently on this board so I thought I would give it a try. Not sure how either would impact the acid change but again my experience is limited.

I tend to try to find a balance and not make unnecessary changes but still feeling my way around here. I have a friend who does’t measure anything saying it’s all unnecessary. While I appreciate the simplicity he makes some of the worst wine I’ve ever tasted. 

Again, looking for balance between stuff that helps and stuff that is unnecessary/detrimental so open to any advice.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 29, 2019)

NorCal said:


> It looks like your starting grapes were perfectly in the bullseye center. I have not seen acid change that much through fermentation before.
> 
> I also don’t use additives (Lallyzme EX, opti-red, fermentation tannins) and curious why you added these things?



Do you use any kind of enzyme? I can't speak for all of them but the commercial guys I know all use an enzyme. Not Lallyzme but a liquid form.


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## NorCal (Sep 30, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Do you use any kind of enzyme? I can't speak for all of them but the commercial guys I know all use an enzyme. Not Lallyzme but a liquid form.


I have tried most of them. I use them as a tool to solve issues with grapes. If there aren’t issues with the grapes that need to be fixed, I don’t use anything. I follow the less is more theory, but you must start with good grapes or that approach doesn’t work.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 30, 2019)

NorCal said:


> I have tried most of them. I use them as a tool to solve issues with grapes. If there aren’t issues with the grapes that need to be fixed, I don’t use anything. I follow the less is more theory, but you must start with good grapes or that approach doesn’t work.



You make much larger quantities than I do so I need all the extraction I can get. The Lallzyme or other enzymes help break down the cell walls for better extraction. I don't see it as an additive to improve the wine just provide more volume at press. I've always used it so I really can't says whether it has an affect or not. Might have to split a batch sometime to see what happens.


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## NorCal (Sep 30, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> You make much larger quantities than I do so I need all the extraction I can get. The Lallzyme or other enzymes help break down the cell walls for better extraction. I don't see it as an additive to improve the wine just provide more volume at press. I've always used it so I really can't says whether it has an affect or not. Might have to split a batch sometime to see what happens.


The last time I used an enzyme it made a 1,000 pounds of Zin a mess to press / clear and the resulting wine was overly tannic. I could however see the use of the enzyme in certain cases where it would be beneficial. I am not against enzymes, but I only use it to solve a deficiency that I see in the fruit to start with.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 30, 2019)

NorCal said:


> The last time I used an enzyme it made a 1,000 pounds of Zin a mess to press / clear and the resulting wine was overly tannic. I could however see the use of the enzyme in certain cases where it would be beneficial. I am not against enzymes, but I only use it to solve a deficiency that I see in the fruit to start with.



The mess you are referring to might have been fairly recent since I remember reading about it. If I remember correctly it was with a bladder press. When you make 1000 lbs I make 100 lbs so my mess is only 1/10 of yours, perhaps I'm just a glutten for punishment.


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## stickman (Sep 30, 2019)

I hear what @NorCal is saying and agree, adjusting your winemaking practices according to the fruit condition makes sense. The main problem is that many winemakers, myself included, don't always know how to recognize the differences in the fruit or how to adjust for them. I have a major disadvantage because I don't see the fruit before it's crushed. I usually use enzymes because I want all of the color I can possibly get, as I subscribe to the concept that more color allows a wine to have more tannin and remain supple (not sure if that's really true, but I believe it). Throughout the years I've only on one occasion had the fruit start to break down excessively; never really determined why. In 2017 I didn't use enzymes, because the supplier recommended not to based on the fruit being ripe and fragile due to extra long hang time. I admit, without that recommendation I probably would have used the enzymes, not sure, but maybe the fruit would have turned to mush as a result.

I think there are many other practices including non-chemical that require knowledge of the fruit, a good example is extended maceration, some people are planning to use this technique before their lug fruit even arrives.

I don't have all of the answers, but sure enjoy the winemaking process and philosophizing with members here.


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## Johnd (Sep 30, 2019)

I have certainly created an enzymatic mess, first time I used Lallzyme EX-V. I figured, "If a small amount of enzyme is good, more is better", and that's just not true. It was the longest, most messy and arduous pressing activity ever undertaken. Can't even count the time spent stirring the messy sludge of must in my press, just trying to get enough liquid to drain so that the press would work. This stuff clogged the slats and just squirted up around the press plate if it wasn't dry enough. I'll never overdo the enzymes again................


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## Chuck E (Sep 30, 2019)

stickman said:


> I hear what @NorCal is saying and agree, adjusting your winemaking practices according to the fruit condition makes sense. The main problem is that many winemakers, myself included, don't always know how to recognize the differences in the fruit or how to adjust for them. I have a major disadvantage because I don't see the fruit before it's crushed. .
> 
> I think there are many other practices including non-chemical that require knowledge of the fruit, a good example is extended maceration, some people are planning to use this technique before their lug fruit even arrives.
> 
> I don't have all of the answers, but sure enjoy the winemaking process and philosophizing with members here.



So @NorCal, what are the differences in the grapes where you would/would not use enzymes? I am with @stickman, I get my grapes off a truck, and I don't often get to select the fruit. I used Lallzyme EX this year and I am satisfied with the color extraction. My fruit had some raisins in it, so I know there was some time between harvesting and arrival in Chicagoland.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 30, 2019)

I sure hope I didn't start anything and if I did apologize, especially to @NorCal whose opinion I truly respect. It's just when I get differing opinions on something I feel the need to dig a little deeper into it. Hopefully these posts will be taken as a learning opportunity rather than a debate.


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## Chuck E (Sep 30, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I sure hope I didn't start anything and if I did apologize, especially to @NorCal whose opinion I truly respect. It's just when I get differing opinions on something I feel the need to dig a little deeper into it. Hopefully these posts will be taken as a learning opportunity rather than a debate.



Me too!


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## stickman (Sep 30, 2019)

No debate intended on my part either. I think the topic is complicated, I'm sure Norcal knows more about assessing grape maturity than I do, but I think grape maturity is part of the issue as it relates to the type of tannins that will be present. You want to extract the good things in the grape but not the bad stuff, so if enzymes increase extraction, is it only the good stuff, or do you have to take some bad with the good. Maybe harsh tannins being present in the grape would be a reason to not use enzymes, on the other hand, you might use the enzymes to quickly extract the color and then cut the maceration short to avoid extracting the harsh tannin, but if you robotically add the enzymes and run a typical maceration until dry, you might end up with a very hard wine, in the end possibly needing fining to remove some tannin. This is a terrible over simplification, and many other grape compounds and factors apply, just wanted to touch the tip of the iceberg.


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## jsbeckton (Sep 30, 2019)

I am only on my 2nd AG batch but used Lallyzme-EX both times and got pretty different extractions. Both batches were 118# but one netted me 7g and the other 8.5g. Not sure if this is a typical range or if the enzyme worked differently but things looked similar both times and there were no issues during press.


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## CDrew (Sep 30, 2019)

I have not encountered the "mess" with enzymes yet. I used EX and EX-V last year on 3 wines and this year so far on two. In all cases, the press (bladder) went off without a hitch. In my mind the Enzymes make a huge difference in mouth feel, color and even taste. I don't see a down side. This year, I'm going all EX-V just to understand exactly what it does for me. But just looking at color, I think 100% of the local wineries I frequent use an enzyme treatment. I'll be picking this Saturday and hoping for another 300 pounds of something. Hoping for a Barbera, but would take any interesting red grape that isn't something I'm already making. I should know in 3 days. And for sure, doing EX-V again.

I can definitely say that some grapes are just "juicier" than others. So not surprising to hear that you got 7 gallons from one and 8.5 from another. Case in point-300 pounds of Syrah net 19 gallons of wine before racking of the gross lees. 300 pounds of Primitivo net 25 plus a bit at the same point. The Primitivo may have been a generous weight at crush, but you get my point. I'm stoked to have any grapes and like the enzymes to make the most of it. 

Wine making is an odd endeavor. You go through the motions, but really don't know for 2 years how you did. This is a hobby that should be started at 20 not 50. You need time to make mistakes, backtrack and correct over time. One of my wine making friends says your wine gets better over time because you stop making the mistakes of last year. I can see that.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 30, 2019)

Lè enzyme slop


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## NorCal (Sep 30, 2019)

Great discussion. I would reach for enzymes when I had unripe fruit, as I know without some help, the wine will be light, thin and lack fullness.

I’ve experienced grapes that were at 25 brix, but still unripe. I look for seeds that are brown, the flesh pulls away from the skin and there are grape flavors and not just sweetness.

If I were doing a Pinot or another delicate red and I didn’t want to blend in a little Syrah, Petit Sirah or Petit Verdot, I would also consider an enzyme.


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## CDrew (Sep 30, 2019)

NorCal said:


> Great discussion. I would reach for enzymes when I had unripe fruit, as I know without some help, the wine will be light, thin and lack fullness.



So that was 2017 for me. The fruit was ripe, the wine was "ok" but had a thin quality to it. I was surprised the with the generous Silver at the Clos du Lac tasting! Thus the enzymes since. The 2018 is definitely better and I hope the 2019 is even better!


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## Mac60 (Oct 1, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Lè enzyme slop


What size press is that, how do you like it
Mike


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## Ajmassa (Oct 2, 2019)

Mac60 said:


> What size press is that, how do you like it
> Mike



Was just a one time thing. A rental before I purchased my own basket press couple years ago
The bladder press was a 90L I rented as a last resort. (The 45l was rented out already) Even with all the fumbling as a noob— was still pretty awesome. I’m glad I got a chance to use one. New toys are just plain fun. I get by fine with a #35 ratchet— but if I made volume like you I’d certainly recommend.


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## jsbeckton (Nov 1, 2019)

So MLF is complete and just racked this to a new barrel. The pH was about 3.4 so doesn’t seem as acidic but I still get a green flavor. I’d say it reminds me of stems or something. Obviously it’s way to early to tell how this will turn out but is a “green stem” flavor typical if a red that just finished MLF about 45 days in?


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## CDrew (Nov 1, 2019)

New wine tastes new. Fruity, grapey, but not green per say. Is it a green pepper smell? Maybe pyrazines? I think that can be normal for Cabernet. You're going to have to do the long wait to find out!


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## jsbeckton (Nov 1, 2019)

I’d describe all of my young kit wines as “fruity” but that’s not what I have gotten from my first (4) all grape or juice bucket batches. I don’t think I’d describe it as green pepper but will look for that on my next sample. To me, it’s kind of like a green stem flavor which is off because I basically hand picked any stems that made it through the C/D.

Really hoping that it’s something that will fade with time as the wine matures.


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## CDrew (Nov 1, 2019)

It's probably fine. I did find this from a reputable source:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/article/Napa-Valley-Cabernet-s-bell-pepper-controversy-6584908.php

Good luck, but I'll bet in the end, it's excellent.


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## jsbeckton (Nov 1, 2019)

Interesting.

The grapes were very good and tasted fantastic so this seems to have developed during fermentation.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 2, 2019)

Some yeast strains also help reduce the vegetal characteristics. However I'm still unclear on the difference between grapes that are under ripe or not yet mature.

https://scottlab.com/red-underripe


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