# Another ferment in barrel thread



## tonyt (Jan 30, 2013)

I just received my second Vidia 23ltr barrel. Coinsidentially I just received my LE MMMegioli Chardonnay del Veneto. Soooooooooooo, should I or shouldn't I? Ferment in barrel? Let's hear it pros and cons, I see many of you have recently done this, how did it turn out? How were the reds that went in the barrel after the white fermentation?


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## robie (Jan 30, 2013)

Breaking in a new barrel by fermenting a white is done quite often. It imparts some special characteristic to the barrel that can come no other way.

Just don't add any additional oak, since the barrel will provide at least a little oak flavor; just not as much as you might think. After secondary, taste the wine; if still not oaked enoiugh, add your kit oak at that time and taste test every couple of weeks.

If you like the results, try fermenting a red, next. Experiment!!!

After fermenting a white in my last barrel, I wish I had never put a red in it. It would be nice to have reserved it for whites, only, since I have been making more whites than reds lately.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 30, 2013)

Question on this: If you barrel ferment your 23 liter kit in a 23 liter barrel, how do you account for the lack of headspace?


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## tonyt (Jan 30, 2013)

OUCH! I better take a good measurement on the actual capacity of the new barrel. My old one is right at 6.5 gallons and racks great back and forth with my Italian Carboys.


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## robie (Jan 30, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> Question on this: If you barrel ferment your 23 liter kit in a 23 liter barrel, how do you account for the lack of headspace?



Head space is not an issue during fermentation, especially during primary fermentation. I would do both primary and secondary in the new barrel. Once racked out, it will then need topped off.

Consider using a different yeast, like D47. If you can keep the temperature down below about 64F max, it really enhances the fruitiness.


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## tonyt (Jan 30, 2013)

robie said:


> Consider using a different yeast, like D47. If you can keep the temperature down below about 64F max, it really enhances the fruitiness.


No can do Kemosabe, this here's Texas. No basements here on the Golf Coast, water table is at about three feet. But I would if I could, always wanted to try other yeasts.


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## robie (Jan 30, 2013)

tonyt said:


> No can do Kemosabe, this here's Texas. No basements here on the Golf Coast, water table is at about three feet. But I would if I could, always wanted to try other yeasts.



Yep, pretty hard to keep that temp down in Beaumont. However, you can get yourself an old frig and a Johnson Temperature controller and easily maintain those low temperatures. It sure can make a difference for a nice Chardonnay. 

I haven't been in Beaumont for years. Love the huge pine trees in that area; some as big around as a small house! Built the awnings on the Olive Garden there. I think they have removed all the awnings from Olive gardens by now and replaced them with ugly wooden structures.


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## tonyt (Jan 30, 2013)

robie said:


> Built the awnings on the Olive Garden there. I think they have removed all the awnings from Olive gardens by now and replaced them with ugly wooden structures.


Hurricanes Rita and Ike took care of just about every awning in town.


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## robie (Jan 30, 2013)

tonyt said:


> Hurricanes Rita and Ike took care of just about every awning in town.



I'll bet!

My younger brother lives in Texas City. I lived down there for a couple of years, about 40 years ago. I worked in Baytown and in Houston until I got drafted into the US Army. I didn't move back after the Army. I still like the area very much and visit my brother about twice each year. Just don't miss the bugs or the humidity.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 30, 2013)

robie said:


> Head space is not an issue during fermentation, especially during primary fermentation. I would do both primary and secondary in the new barrel. Once racked out, it will then need topped off.



Understood, but you need some headspace to ferment, right? For example, ferment a 6 gallon kit in an 8 gallon bucket. We don't need any Vadai Volcanoes.


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## ibglowin (Jan 30, 2013)

A barrel leaks in ALL directions, not just out the top, big difference compared to a plastic bucket. As for volcanoes they were really created with the Mosti Mondial kits that had you add yeast nutrient along with oak in secondary. Big reaction. Keep it cool and you should be OK.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 30, 2013)

So, would it not "volcano" out of all directions? I think I'm missing a very simple concept here - sorry to keep on it. But my thinking is that as the CO2 increases and pressure expands, you'd have wine coming out of every crack, crevice and airlock. This is why I'm in finance and not chemistry or physics.


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## wineman2013 (Jan 31, 2013)

Here is a post from the kit tweaking thread which talks about leaving some must out of the barrel for fermenting room ( good idea !) and fruit flavour



Barrel fermenting a wine kit and using small barrels

one of the things that challenges a kit wine maker is the small vollumes and the desire to make more commercialy styled wine.
Small barrels have their challenges , a 23 litre 6 gallon barrel is often what kit winemakers want to use as its sized for one kit.
I belive a 40 litre barrel is the idea size for a kit winemaker because its got a bit more moderate oak to wine ratio but I will write this thread based on a 23 litre barrell and most of the same ideas apply for barrels a bit larger than that.

to barrel ferment a chardonnay (usually used althoug I have done a sauvignon blanc for a fume blanc style that came out well , but try chardonnay first )

what you do is hydrate the kit in your primary as per the instructions . ( I leave out the bentonite) ( I think this is for less sludge in the barrell)
hydrate you yeast by adding the packet to 50ml of luke warm cholrine free water (I just use a britta filter an tap water) and stirr it up.

after 10- 15 minutes add it to your primary full of juice.

stirr the primary well , and fill your brand new 23 litre barrel 2/3 full ( I like hungarian oak , Vadai Barrels are good value for money) 
and leave the rest of the must in the primary.

I usually put an airlock or cloth over the bung hole to keep bugs etc out . and cover the primary fermenter or put its lid on.

when you hydrometer tells you the primary is dry ( its a bit tricky to get a sample out of a small barrel so I just use the primary for a guide) 

when its dry rack both portions together in carboy and continue as normal.

rince the barrel with clean cold water , and start the process again , you can do another chardonnay , try a sauvignion blanc, viognier or for a twist try a non-skins red kit .
I like pinot noir or rhone vareitals or blends for this .

I usually repeat this 3 times , then the barrel is ready to use for longer term 3 months plus ageing of your other reds.
it will take a few uses untill your barrel gets broken in to the point where you can age a kit in it for a year without over oaking. but you should get progressivly longer times with each use.

the active yeast metabolises buffers some oak compounds durring a ferment and gives it a nice integrated oaking , leaving some of the kit in the primary gives it its fruit back and moderates the oaking too. it also prevents the barrel from foaming over.

its a good way to break in a small barrel , I have seen people soak a small barrel with percarbonate to break it in but that seems like a waste to me.
Last edited by bzac; 04-27-2012 at 11:49 AM.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks! That makes perfect sense. I'm hoping to get a second barrel sometime this year (maybe in May for my b-day). Might be a good time to ferment a Chard, then do the Pinot Noir I was hoping to do this year.


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## tonyt (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks Wineman2013 and Zac, that's exactly what I will do. Gunna get started next weekend. Too much already planned this weekend.


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## wineman2013 (Feb 1, 2013)

Sounds good
I have done this myself and it works well.

Nice soft oak.
I used that biolees stuff , I think 2 tsp in the carboy after racking out of the barrel to give it that yeasty creamy feel , 7 weeks later I racked , added the clarifiers and a month later bottled.

Don't forget to hydrate the barrel first , I fill mine with hot water and a tablespoon of kmeta and let it swell for 24- 36 hours

Steve


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## robie (Feb 1, 2013)

Boatboy24 said:


> Understood, but you need some headspace to ferment, right? For example, ferment a 6 gallon kit in an 8 gallon bucket. We don't need any Vadai Volcanoes.


 
I see, thought you were talking about toppping off for oxidation prevention.

A lot depends on exactly what the true volume of your barrel is. They are all a little different, een if it says 6 gallon.

Check to make sure you have a little head room with your particular barrel. A Chard doesn't foam so much usually, but you sure don't want the level right at the top.

I don't know if that particular MM kit calls for yeast nutrient or not. If it does, you will need to be very careful filling the barrel too high.


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## wineman2013 (Feb 4, 2013)

How much a must foams is more to do with the type of yeast used as some create more foam than others.
Larger amounts of suspended solids and higher temperatures also cause more foam.

If you add a powder to an active ferment or a wine recently fermented that is saturated with co2 , the high surface area of the powder offers millions of nucleus points which causes the co2 gas to come out of solution and produce lots of foam.

Dissolving any powder in water then adding it to an empty container ( carboy or?) then racking into that container is one way to reduce foaming , a good tip for using biolees. If adding nutrient to an active ferment , dissolve it in water first and add it a little bit at a time . You can spread it out over an hour


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## s0615353 (Feb 5, 2013)

For a barrel fermented Chardonnay that will undergo MLF, do you recomend leaving the wine on its gross lees until the MLF is complete, or do you rack and return before starting the MLF?


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## wineman2013 (Feb 9, 2013)

I'd probably want to pitch the yeast and MLB at the same time and keep stiring the lees up gently every day until MLB tested complete then rack.


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## tonyt (Feb 9, 2013)

I started the Mosti Mondaile Meglioli Chardonnay de Veneto yesterday morning, fermentation was well underway by last evening so I racked to the new Twin Sister barrel this morning. I racked the first almost gallon to a glass jug and the rest into the barrel leaving some head room. BTW the fermentation is pin point bubbles with little to no foam, very typical for all of the Meglioli I have done. Initial SG was a low 1.098 and is now 1.085. I had the brew belt on the plastic fermemter yesterday to insure a healthy start. I doubt I will need to but has anyone considered a brew belt on a small barrel? I'm thinking the wood staves will insulate and keep the fermentation heat inside. If anyone needs picture proof check out my posts in my Twin Sisters thread.


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