# ok..little help..



## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

I am new to the cultured yeast thing, i was a wild yeast natural wine man, im going with a cultured yeast, ive read 20 diff ways to rehydrate a yeast..so here's i go...im doing 4 lugs of grapes >1 cup of 104 degree water , put in 12 1/2 grams of go ferm protect, 10 grams of yeast (d254) wait 15-20 add a little juice from fermenter, wait 15 more minutes, add the culture to the fermenter..


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Jul 12, 2012)

You can also add some sugar or juice to the 104* water also as a kicker. Everything looks good.


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## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

wow!!! thats good news!!!..


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## robie (Jul 12, 2012)

Make sure the yeast solution is within a few degrees temperature-wise as the must before adding it to the must.

Also make sure the solution is foaming and bubbling, indicating the yeast are viable.


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## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

thks robie will do...


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 12, 2012)

kendo said:


> I am new to the cultured yeast thing, i was a wild yeast natural wine man, im going with a cultured yeast, ive read 20 diff ways to rehydrate a yeast..so here's i go...im doing 4 lugs of grapes >1 cup of 104 degree water , put in 12 1/2 grams of go ferm protect, 10 grams of yeast (d254) wait 15-20 add a little juice from fermenter, wait 15 more minutes, add the culture to the fermenter..


To use GO Ferm correctly you hydrate it at 110 degrees and wait for the solution to drop to 104 degrees then you add the yeast. Then you make additions to the culture with some sugar and juice but do not let the culture drop more than 10 degrees doing so in stages of at least one hour each. After you have dropped the Culture temperature to within 10 degrees of your Fermenter Temperature you can pitch the culture in the Fermentor. Keeping the temperature changes within the 10 degree range is called tempering. I assume as a Natural Yeast Guy now that you have decided to use cultured yeasts you now have your nutrient program ready as well. 
Malvina


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## tonyandkory (Jul 12, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> To use GO Ferm correctly you hydrate it at 110 degrees and wait for the solution to drop to 104 degrees then you add the yeast. Then you make additions to the culture with some sugar and juice but do not let the culture drop more than 10 degrees doing so in stages of at least one hour each. After you have dropped the Culture temperature to within 10 degrees of your Fermenter Temperature you can pitch the culture in the Fermentor. Keeping the temperature changes within the 10 degree range is called tempering. I assume as a Natural Yeast Guy now that you have decided to use cultured yeasts you now have your nutrient program ready as well.
> Malvina




WOW that seems like a lot of work... when (if) I make a starter ... usually hot water in a cup then put the yeast in until it all sinks to the bottom stir in a couple spoon full of sugar and walk away for awhile until the cup is full of foam then pitch it ....

is there an advantage to doing that? ... I have never had a ferment not start.

(**knocks on something wooded**)


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## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> To use GO Ferm correctly you hydrate it at 110 degrees and wait for the solution to drop to 104 degrees then you add the yeast. Then you make additions to the culture with some sugar and juice but do not let the culture drop more than 10 degrees doing so in stages of at least one hour each. After you have dropped the Culture temperature to within 10 degrees of your Fermenter Temperature you can pitch the culture in the Fermentor. Keeping the temperature changes within the 10 degree range is called tempering. I assume as a Natural Yeast Guy now that you have decided to use cultured yeasts you now have your nutrient program ready as well.
> Malvina


 wow how in hell do i keep the water from droping 10 degrees for an hour?..and what do you mean nutrient program ready?..help please


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 12, 2012)

tonyandkory said:


> WOW that seems like a lot of work... when (if) I make a starter ... usually hot water in a cup then put the yeast in until it all sinks to the bottom stir in a couple spoon full of sugar and walk away for awhile until the cup is full of foam then pitch it ....
> 
> is there an advantage to doing that? ... I have never had a ferment not start.
> 
> (**knocks on something wooded**)



There are many ways of doing things. Some ways work sometimes, Some work most of the times and there are ways that work all of the time. Also some ways require more work than others. If there was no reason for doing more work than it would be silly to do. However there are many reasons to follow a strict yeast hydration and culture building method. The most important is not the having the ferment not start. The opposite is the case. It is having a ferment finish properly. Go Ferm and Tempering simply put allows for the development of strong and healthy cell walls of the developing yeast colony. This leads to cells that can withstand better the increasing alcohol environment. You can imagine how important that is when dealing with high brix musts. There are other reasons why correct hydration and tempering will make for a safer fermentation and reduce potential issues including off odors and tastes, VA production and H2S issues. All smart reasons for the extra work. 

How do you keep the water from dropping 10 degrees for an hour? Your container is kept in a warm bath and/or you have a bigger container in which it will take an hour for it to lose 10 degrees. 

Well you don't just pick a yeast type and expect a miracle. The differences in the sensory effects yeast will have on a grape are small compared to not providing yeasts with proper nutrients during the fermentation. You need to read up on using yeast nutrients. I assumed you knew as much since you indicated you were using Go Ferm Protect. Consider using Fermaid K at the very least. 
Malvina


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## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

this is my first cultured yeast malvina, ive been reading and reading , im trying just to get a hydrated yeast for a good ferment thats all, i dont know alot about this thats why im asking so many ??"s, im learning something new everyday, and i really apprc your post along with the others on this board, i just want to get this right the first time thats all, i have all the yeast and nutrients i need, go ferm pertect, fermaid k, opti red, im a little slow on the learning curve with what im suppose to do ..i mean im doing 4lugs of zin in each tub , all i need to know is how many grams of yeast and how many grams of go ferm to hydrate for this amount of grapes i need for each tub , and when to feed again when ferment starts, could you help me with that??, is it 10 grams of yeast and say 12 1/2 grams of go ferm...im using d254 yeast for this..


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## Runningwolf (Jul 12, 2012)

I also use Go Ferm and agree with everything Melvina mentioned, especially about reducing potential issues including off odors and tastes, VA production and H2S issues. The only thing I do different is 15 minute intervals instead of one hour. Many times I am starting out making a 5 gallon starter batch and I'm just adding juice with each increment instead of juice and sugar. 

When I'm making a batch at home I do actually set my small starter batch in a sink of warm water as mentioned above to keep it from cooling too fast.


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## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

can you tell me if my gram #s are correct .like 10grams of yeast and 12 1/2 grams of go ferm for 4lugs of grapes..thk you


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 12, 2012)

kendo said:


> this is my first cultured yeast malvina, ive been reading and reading , im trying just to get a hydrated yeast for a good ferment thats all, i dont know alot about this thats why im asking so many ??"s, im learning something new everyday, and i really apprc your post along with the others on this board, i just want to get this right the first time thats all, i have all the yeast and nutrients i need, go ferm pertect, fermaid k, opti red, im a little slow on the learning curve with what im suppose to do ..i mean im doing 4lugs of zin in each tub , all i need to know is how many grams of yeast and how many grams of go ferm to hydrate for this amount of grapes i need for each tub , and when to feed again when ferment starts, could you help me with that??, is it 10 grams of yeast and say 12 1/2 grams of go ferm...im using d254 yeast for this..



Ok 4 lugs per vat assume 10 gallons per vat finished wine. 


For each Vat the following
10 grams of Yeast 
Fermaid K 1/2 dose after the lag phase 5 GRAMS (6.1gms/teaspoon)
Fermaid K 1/2 addition dose at 18 brix. 5 GRAMS "
Opti Red full dose at pitching yeast 10 GRAMS (3grs teaspoon)
Malvina


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## Rock (Jul 12, 2012)

Don't forget 1.25 grams of go ferm per gram of yeast.Man Malvina your like a book of knowledge Thank you.


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## kendo (Jul 12, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Ok 4 lugs per vat assume 10 gallons per vat finished wine.
> 
> 
> For each Vat the following
> ...


 wow....thk you so much, i get it now..and 12 1/2 grams of go ferm correct? your going to kill me but when is the lag phase? i understand everything else..thk thk you...


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 13, 2012)

Oh I assumed the 12.5 grams of Go Ferm. for each vat. Right you are Rock! Lag Phase is the time when you pitch the yeast and the beginning of the cap forms. So when you start to get a cap on the must then you can consider the lag phase at its end. I also consider lag phase included in my total of time cold soak. Not sure if everyone else does but to me it is cold soaking until you have a cap. One other thing it is not a bad idea to increase Yeast and Go-Ferm by 20% in high brix musts or if you are using last year's yeast. ( if stored properly) 
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 13, 2012)

Not to be a "nay sayer", but IMHO, a starter is not really needed. 

For 22 years, I simply sprinkle the dry yeast over the curshed must. I have never has a problem with fermentation kicking off. Of course, I use quality yeast (which may have something to do with it).


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## kendo (Jul 13, 2012)

thanks for all the post malvina, it has been a great great help!!!, one last ??, before i pitch the yeast how much meta bisulfite should i use on each bin to stun the wild yeast 4lugs in each..thk you..


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## altavino (Jul 13, 2012)

I don't usually make a starter for a must within normal parameters , I just use goferm durring hydration and pitch the hydrated yeast.

But I would make a starter for a must that was likely to be difficult , like a high sugar port or dessert wine must or a big monster zinfandel or a high acid low ph hybrid , or one that was over sulfited at crush .

I'd also make a starter if I was caught out with less yeast than I needed and culture it overnight to build it up. A freind of mine showed up a couple years ago with 2 tonnes of grapes after we had already finnished our ferments for the season. I was a little short of yeast and it was the October thanksgiving week end and I couldn't get any yeast for this surprise batch. this starter worked well.

a starter is also a good idea if your fermenting room is a little on the cool side. build up a good starter for a few hours where its warm. bring it into your fermenting room, let it cool down for a hour in the room , then pitch it . this will help your ferment get off to a faster start.

http://www.lallemandwine.com/IMG/pdf_Fiche_1IntALP.qxd.pdf

I also follow lallamnds reccomendation of using 25% more yeast with musts over 25 Brix.


I do however always make mlf starters , even when using MBR strains.


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## Rock (Jul 13, 2012)

kendo said:


> thanks for all the post malvina, it has been a great great help!!!, one last ??, before i pitch the yeast how much meta bisulfite should i use on each bin to stun the wild yeast 4lugs in each..thk you..


1/2 tsp per 100lbs should do the trick.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 13, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Not to be a "nay sayer", but IMHO, a starter is not really needed.
> 
> For 22 years, I simply sprinkle the dry yeast over the curshed must. I have never has a problem with fermentation kicking off. Of course, I use quality yeast (which may have something to do with it).


Quality Yeast? Please explain. And I would ask the question. If you were teaching someone to make wine would you teach them your method or the one that is accepted generally by commercial winemakers and recommended by yeast manufacturers? 
Malvina


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## kendo (Jul 13, 2012)

rock for 144lbs should i use 3/4 teaspoon and should i mix it with water before i add to fermenter?..thk you


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## Rock (Jul 13, 2012)

Yes,also remember to add your tannin 12 to 24 hrs after adding your enzyme.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 13, 2012)

What Rock? and no Yeast Hulls? 
Malvina


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## Rock (Jul 13, 2012)

MS never used them but if you say so.Might try it why would you in the first place?Stuck ferment?I don't intend that to happen.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 13, 2012)

Rock said:


> MS never used them but if you say so.Might try it why would you in the first place?Stuck ferment?I don't intend that to happen.


I use them now as standard practice. With the move to using little or no DAP or with minimum Fermaid K which contains DAP. Relying on Fermaid O, yeast hulls are a nutrient that helps absorb poisons which yeast can produce. So I dose at 18 brix and at 10 brix. I can't see any negative reasons not to and the cost is very reasonable. Scott Labs uses them in calculating your YAN additions even though they do not contain any significant nitrogen.
Malvina


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## Rock (Jul 14, 2012)

Great info MS,I add Fermaid K after lag and have used Fermaid O at 15 brix as well.But this is just my choice as I do not go by YAN numbers.I also use Fermaid K at 15 brix without the Fermaid O with great results.May be this year I will give the hulls a try with KGIII grapes if I am lucky enough to have the funds.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 14, 2012)

Rock said:


> Great info MS,I add Fermaid K after lag and have used Fermaid O at 15 brix as well.But this is just my choice as I do not go by YAN numbers.I also use Fermaid K at 15 brix without the Fermaid O with great results.May be this year I will give the hulls a try with KGIII grapes if I am lucky enough to have the funds.



I think this brings up the question as to what is the right thing to do and the answer is there are many ways to achieve results. But, a big BUT! I think for a New Winemaker the best advice to give is use "Best Practices" Some of these practices may seem as too much work or unnecessary or even a waste of time to some. But employing "Best Practices" will never steer you wrong. There are winemakers who avoid even using generally accepted practices and they say they have good results. The problem with that is you never tasted their wine and you never hear when their disregard of applying a Best Practice leads to an undesirable effect or end result. 

With regards to the nutrient issue. I think the most improvement in nutrient management was the ability to have information regarding the YAN content. This allow us to use less DAP or DAP containing products and we do it without fear of stinky or stuck ferments. Since in the past, our older Best Practice worked well as we basically ball parked the numbers and the additions. Like we did here in Kendo's batch. I think the issue of using less inorganic nitrogen has driven the entire affair. It is over blown? Sometimes I think it might be a bit much. Many Commercial Winemakers still continue to dump in the DAP and let it fly. And let's face it if you want a heat spike DAP is the answer. 

New Science, Marketing of new products, and again using the best practice which has developed from this and proven over many trials is where I tend to go as a Winemaker. I am not stuck in the mud with the attitude 'I always did it this way" That is not the kind of Winemaker I want to be. Nor am I hung up on every new trend. One thing is however, my wine is much better than it was 25 years ago. It is not because I am doing the same things I did then. 

For Kendo here, he is new at it even though he was "A Natural Yeast Man" I have always liked Cultured Men better. But jumping in the pool at this time, he is exposed to all of this latest stuff. He was stressing over Yeast selection as if that was the end all and not thinking about the basic nutrient additions. Did our Guy get caught up in Yeast Selection Hype? Can't blame him. But the point is, first the Best Practices should be in place before thinking about the fine tuning of a Swiss Watch. 

I thought you were poking a bit when you asked about the tannin. I was poking back about the Yeast Hulls even though I use both as a matter of course. But all of this is a lot to chew for a new guy worrying about doing it correctly. Yeast hulls, tannin, enzymes all are further refinements in the process and leaning their use and maximizing their benefits takes many batches and quite a few vintages. One step at a time. Just keeping taking steps is what I believe. After all we are Amateurs not constrained by commercial restraints and considerations. We can practice in a passionate and very unencumbered environment. It doesn't get better than that. 
Malvina


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## kendo (Jul 14, 2012)

great post, and im glad you helped me malvina, i belong to other wine making boards, an alot of wine makers cant be bothered with helping the new guy, im sure i will only get better at this, thk you for your time...kendo


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## Rock (Jul 14, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> I think this brings up the question as to what is the right thing to do and the answer is there are many ways to achieve results. But, a big BUT! I think for a New Winemaker the best advice to give is use "Best Practices" Some of these practices may seem as too much work or unnecessary or even a waste of time to some. But employing "Best Practices" will never steer you wrong. There are winemakers who avoid even using generally accepted practices and they say they have good results. The problem with that is you never tasted their wine and you never hear when their disregard of applying a Best Practice leads to an undesirable effect or end result.
> 
> With regards to the nutrient issue. I think the most improvement in nutrient management was the ability to have information regarding the YAN content. This allow us to use less DAP or DAP containing products and we do it without fear of stinky or stuck ferments. Since in the past, our older Best Practice worked well as we basically ball parked the numbers and the additions. Like we did here in Kendo's batch. I think the issue of using less inorganic nitrogen has driven the entire affair. It is over blown? Sometimes I think it might be a bit much. Many Commercial Winemakers still continue to dump in the DAP and let it fly. And let's face it if you want a heat spike DAP is the answer.
> 
> ...


Hey MS,I know your were poking back as a cultured man I can handle it.


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## JohnT (Jul 18, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Quality Yeast? Please explain. And I would ask the question. If you were teaching someone to make wine would you teach them your method or the one that is accepted generally by commercial winemakers and recommended by yeast manufacturers?
> Malvina


 
By quality yeast, I would go with yeast that is well within the expiration period and also one that I KNOW was storred correctly by the person I purchased it from. 

If I were teaching a home wine maker, I would teach good home wine making techniques. As I have said, as long as the yeast is of good quality, and the must is within the proper fermentation temperature, I still say that making a starter is not absolutely required. I have been direct "innoc" with dry yeast for 22 years and have not had a single batch that has not kicked off. 

Contrary to the "Use a starter" school, there is another that theorises that the starter will force the yeast to have to make two major adjustments to its environment (once from dry to starter-hydration, and another from starter to must). There are those that do believe (and I am talking comercial wineries) that the direct approach is the best.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 18, 2012)

JohnT said:


> there is another that theorises that the starter will force the yeast to have to make two major adjustments to its environment (once from dry to starter-hydration, and another from starter to must).


Can you cite a source for any of this theory? It is the first time I am hearing about it. Forcing two times? You are building yeast cells and multiplying the Colony in a more positive and friendly environment hardly forcing anything. 
Malvina


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## JohnT (Jul 18, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Can you cite a source for any of this theory? It is the first time I am hearing about it. Forcing two times? You are building yeast cells and multiplying the Colony in a more positive and friendly environment hardly forcing anything.
> Malvina


 
You can go ahead and research it for yourself on the internet. You will find that many times a yeast starter is not "absolutly required".


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## MalvinaScordaad (Jul 19, 2012)

JohnT said:


> You can go ahead and research it for yourself on the internet. You will find that many times a yeast starter is not "absolutly required".


You know John it was you that presented what you called an alternative theory on the possible ills of making a yeast starter and how it somehow forces the yeast to adapt first to rehydration and then another adjustment from Starter to Must. Of course any rational thinking person can see the folly of such a proposal. But as I said it was you that claim it as an alternative theory. All I asked was some information on your theory. Frankly John I think you made the entire thing up to justify your less than Best Practice in making wine. If you want to make wine that way that is fine but making up theories is a silly way to convince others it is a Best Practice. 
Malvina


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## Sashie (Sep 26, 2012)

This is my first time using a yeast starter. I do not have goferm protect. I have yeast Nutrient and Ghostex. Can I add these to the starter? Or is it better to add the yeast nutrient directly to the must?


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