# need enough for topping off?



## whynot (Dec 28, 2013)

So I'm about to get started with my Eclipse old vin zin kit.. I plan to age in an oak barrel. I don't want to top off with someone elses wine so I feel like the only option is to do 2 batches back to back. Bottle the 2nd batch immediately and use it to top off the barreled batch. I considered getting some 3 gal carboys for the "top off batch" but I feel like I'll end up in the spot with them needed to top that off too.. . 

So my questions. 

making 1 full batch and filling a 5g barrel will there be any left over to use for topping? or do I have to make a 2nd batch to ensure I have my wine for topping. (my math tells me if I get 30 bottes I should have 2.5 left after filling the barrel)? 

Any idea how often and how much topping the 5g oak will take..? loss per month? 

Any other experience out there with a different/better idea?.. I don't want to use marbels. 

I have seen some 5L (1.3g) barrels, could age in 4 of those, more expensive than 1x 5g, but will age faster in the smaller one. 
Thanks!


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## Julie (Dec 28, 2013)

whynot said:


> So I'm about to get started with my Eclipse old vin zin kit.. I plan to age in an oak barrel. I don't want to top off with someone elses wine so I feel like the only option is to do 2 batches back to back. Bottle the 2nd batch immediately and use it to top off the barreled batch. I considered getting some 3 gal carboys for the "top off batch" but I feel like I'll end up in the spot with them needed to top that off too.. .
> 
> So my questions.
> 
> ...



I do not have any experience with barrels but my 2 cent would be to do the 2 kits and on the second kit, just get some 3 gallons and 1 gallons and rack down to those are you top up on the barrel.


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## David219 (Dec 28, 2013)

I am new to the barrel game, but here is what I've found so far. My 23L Vadai barrel holds just under 30 bottles. Most of my WineXpert kits have delivered 31 bottles.

My first kit I ran through my barrel, I bottled three bottles off the top, then racked the rest into the barrel. It took 1.5 bottles to top it off initially, leaving me with 1.5 bottles to spare for future top offs. I drank the half bottle, and found the remaining bottle to be sufficient (with some left over) for topping up the 4 weeks the kit spent in the barrel. For a new barrel, the 4 weeks gave it quite a bit of oak, which I hope and expect will mellow with time in the bottle.

Is your barrel new? If it is only 5 gallons, you probably won't want to leave your first kit in for more than 4 weeks. The schedule of rotation into the barrel that I've read on this forum is a 4-8-12-16-20 week schedule. Some feel that 4 months is as long as you need to get the benefits of micro-oxygenation, but others have reported good luck with six months or more of barrel aging, but to leave a kit in a barrel that long, it will have had to have 4-5 kits run through it already and will lose some of its oak flavor delivery by that time. Once a barrel is neutral, you can supplement with oak cubes or staves to taste. My barrel is still new (my third kit...the WE OVZ, by the way, is currently resting in it), so mine isn't neutral yet.

Barrels aging will chew up free SO2, so it is recommended to test for it. I got an SO2 tester when I bought my barrel, so I plan on monitoring that closely. 

You will likely have more than enough wine to top off with if you are doing kits and your barrel is five gallons. You can still start the kits and plan to run them through sequentially, though. Let both of them benefit from time in the barrel.

I'm a newbie to barrels, but hope this helps. If you search the threads in the barrels and oaking section, there's tons of great information. I'm sure others will chime in here, too.

Good Luck!


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## whynot (Dec 29, 2013)

Thanks, I ordered the vadai barrel yesterday, and started the kit also... I'll probably run a second kit if not for topping just to age the barrel... . Again thanks for the info.

One more question... I am planning on going to the barrel when they are ready to bottle.. can you do it sooner? like 2nd stage ferm? or will that just be a mess?


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## David219 (Dec 29, 2013)

I plan on using my barrel for bulk aging only, trying to make sure the wine is already as clear as possible to minimize sediment in the barrel. I have read of people fermenting in a barrel...often times a white like Chardonnay...to break in the barrel. I wanted mine strictly for aging reds, though.

I would highly recommend reading through the other threads in this section, if you haven't done so already. There are so many knowledgable users who have shared their barrel insights, from break-in, to barrel care, to uses...lots of good stuff. I still go back and re-read threads!


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## ldmack3 (Dec 29, 2013)

I rack to my barrels when its time to take one out as I always have plenty to age. I was told that it does not make any difference if you barrel early or late in the ageing process. I have found that to be true, as best I can tell. Since the time in the barrel increases with each batch, depending on what the wine is, it's just another variable that is hard for me to be 100% certain. I do love the Vadai barrels. 
Oh, and I lose about 10ppm sof o2 per month. So I check monthly depending on the last level. I try to never let it get below 30ppm.
Have fun!


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## JohnT (Dec 30, 2013)

My advise is this.. 

I would reconsider using store bough to top off. 

Adding a bottle of similar, store bought wine would represent, perhaps, 1/26th of the volume. We are only talking about 3.8%. If the wine is similar, then it would not have much of an effect on the batch. Making a second batch, however, is a rather expensive way to top off.

The amount of loss in a 5 gal barrel will vary from barrel to barrel and from wine to wine. I have found that the amount of topping off you need to do will be much more in the beginning and less as time goes by. 

I would make it a point to check it every week, if you are going to barrel age for 5 weeks, then I would be surprised if you need more than 2 bottles


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 2, 2014)

whynot said:


> One more question... I am planning on going to the barrel when they are ready to bottle.. can you do it sooner? like 2nd stage ferm? or will that just be a mess?



If you have any interest in making a Chardonnay, consider barrel fermenting that before running a red through. Otherwise, put your wine in after it has finished clearing. 

I'll second John's thoughts on topping with store bought wine. It is such a small percentage that it should have little or no impact.


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## whynot (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks all.. no whites for me (right now).. I'm doing 2 Old Vine Zin kits, the first I will bottle the 2nd is going into the barrel and then will top off with the left overs/first batch... this will give ma an idea if I need 2 batches or one.. 

Batch 2 will be a Cab or Shiraz... working all the math I'll have plently of time to figure out if I need to double batch or just top off with store stuff.. At least if I get a good stock of my own stuff I don't care about topping off with that...even if it is a small amount, I have OCD like crazy.. so just knowing I used someone else's wine for 3% will bug me ...


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## sdelli (Jan 6, 2014)

If I do not have any of the same type of wine to use for top off then my next choice is some of my wine that I would use to compliment a good blend... Then if I do not have any of that then I use some store bought of the same wine that I enjoy and like the taste.


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