# Mlf



## Gwand (Oct 24, 2013)

Following primary, I added culture to start MLF 5 days ago to 6 gallons of Montepulciano juice. PH was 3.30, S02 was 12 ppm and temp was 70. This is the first time I am trying MLF. I see tiny bubbles forming but not many. No bubbling in airlock. Do you think my culture is working? I was going to wait 4weeks before measuring malate levels.


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 24, 2013)

Which MLB did you buy? The tiny bubbles are probably MLF.


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## Gwand (Oct 24, 2013)

WLP675 Malolactic Culture. Came as a liquid. I brought to RT for 3 hours following directions and then pitched. Thanks Pumpkinman.


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 24, 2013)

ah ha! lots of issues with this particular MLB, I'd wait a day or so, you wont be likely to see a violent fermentation or activity in the airlock as with the alcoholic fermentation, MLF is usually nice and easy. Your more likely to see more activity if the Carboy is in a room that is 70°.


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## Gwand (Oct 24, 2013)

Will do. Thanks


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 25, 2013)

Is that the MLB that Harford was selling? I bought one tube, but am not sure I'm going to use it - I've heard sketchy reviews on the liquid MLB's. I'm going to kick off MLF on my Valpolicella this weekend and was tempted to just go with VP41.


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## ShawnDTurner (Oct 25, 2013)

Those tiny bubbles are good indicators. I use wyeast 4007 with great results


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## Gwand (Oct 25, 2013)

Boatboy. Yes that is the liquid culture from Harford. I wanted to use Lalvin Bacchus but could not get hold of it.

ShawnDTurner. Definitely have tiny bubbles but only about 25-50 at the surface. Of course the surface area is small becuase the carboy is near full. I was going to check malate level but I'm new at this so I may not trust my measurements.

Can anyone make a list of several of the MLF cultures with their pros and cons? Thanks.


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## ShawnDTurner (Oct 25, 2013)

Your airlock will not bubble at all. This is a gentle conversion of malic to lactic. It can take up to 6 months so be patient. You will be rewarded


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## Enologo (Oct 25, 2013)

Is it possible to do MLF without the testing. Say if one were to initiate it and then just bulk age for six months??


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## ShawnDTurner (Oct 25, 2013)

Mlf could finish in 3 weeks depending on temps and nutrients. The problem with not testing is you are leaving yore wine vulnerable to infection. So if you leave it six months and your wine completed in 2 months. You increase your Chance of ruinning your wine.


Remember your so 2 levels are very low, plus leaving on dead yeast and bacteria can produce unwanted aroma and flavors. 

Testing mlf is very easy


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## Snafflebit (Oct 26, 2013)

ShawnDTurner said:


> Mlf could finish in 3 weeks depending on temps and nutrients. The problem with not testing is you are leaving yore wine vulnerable to infection. So if you leave it six months and your wine completed in 2 months. You increase your Chance of ruinning your wine.
> 
> 
> Remember your so 2 levels are very low, plus leaving on dead yeast and bacteria can produce unwanted aroma and flavors.
> ...



I had the same question. I will talk to the man at the brewery shop about MLF testing. 

I have lots of little bubbles, at least!

This is what I used and appears to work well. 
http://morewinemaking.com/products/dry-malolactic-bacteria-viniflora-ch16-15g.html


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## Gwand (Oct 26, 2013)

Update. I measured malate levels before pitching bacteria and the level was 1500 mg/L. I measured malate levels again after 5 days and the level has not changed. Should I wait longer or re-pitch another strain of bacteria? Thanks all.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 26, 2013)

Wait longer to test again. I never even bother to test until at least a month has passed. MLF is not like yeast fermentation. It is gentle, slow, and then slower. If you see any kind of bubbles, it is working and might be even if you don't see bubbles.


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## harmony24 (Oct 26, 2013)

At what point do you stop mlf? How do you know it's finished? How often do you check? I just pitched the liquid form myself. Don't have a way to check yet. I'm a little nervous about the whole thing. Any help would be great.


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## ShawnDTurner (Oct 26, 2013)

Harmony I take the first Chrono Test at 4 weeks, then based on the results. I either test sooner or give it a longer time before I test.


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## geek (Oct 26, 2013)

cmason1957 said:


> Wait longer to test again. I never even bother to test until at least a month has passed. MLF is not like yeast fermentation. It is gentle, slow, and then slower. If you see any kind of bubbles, it is working and might be even if you don't see bubbles.



ditto.

When I first tried the process I was almost crying out loud for help but then realized you may not see much activity really; it happened to both my malbec and cab sav juice from Chile using lalvin bacchus and they both finally completed.

I now put a merlot batch over a month ago using the white labs one mentioned by the OP, small activity as well but more at the begining and it seems like it has slowed down but the room temp also decreased from the 70s to the 60s.

I turned on the heat in the basement and the temp is now 70; this would help.

I learned that patience is key with mlf.


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## petey (Oct 26, 2013)

ShawnDTurner said:


> Mlf could finish in 3 weeks depending on temps and nutrients. The problem with not testing is you are leaving yore wine vulnerable to infection. So if you leave it six months and your wine completed in 2 months. You increase your Chance of ruinning your wine.
> 
> Remember your so 2 levels are very low, plus leaving on dead yeast and bacteria can produce unwanted aroma and flavors.
> 
> Testing mlf is very easy



It sure doesn't sound easy Norris it inexpensive


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't over think the MLF process, this is the biggest problem, it is as simple as pitching yeast for Alcoholic fermentation, you need to know your PH, TA and SO2 levels, but most of us test for this as soon as we get a juice bucket, or right after (within 24 hrs) crushing, with this info, you will know if you need to make any adjustments (the same as prior to pitching your yeast, you should make all corrections before you pitch the yeast).
The variety of MLB that you will select will tell you its tolerances, based upon that, you make the corrections and pitch, fairly simple no?
I don't know what get's everyone all choked up about MLF, the moment it is mentioned sheer panic and hysteria breaks out, many people think that they will see a violent full blown fermentation going on...this isn't the case, most times, MLF is very calm, you may see activity in the airlock, most times not, there is absolutely no reason to check for MLF daily, you are going to drive yourself crazy.
Purchase a reliable MLB, Lalvin puts out Bacchus (the most cost effective for small batches) I prefer to use Lalvin 31 and MBR 41, do they cost more? You betcha! But you get what you pay for, most LHBS either do not carry a MLB or they'll carry White Labs in the tubes because it is cheap, heck, I have yet to find a LHBS that can tell me more than "MLF will change the acid in your wine" about MLF.
I've had MLF take 2-3 months, and I've had it take a few weeks when I had the heat in my office cranked up, I prefer to let it go at its own pace, make sure that you get Opti-Malo and if your budget allows, Acti-ML, these will give your MLF much more probability for success. The one thing that MLF isn't, is inexpensive, but, you will reap the rewards when you taste the difference!
Check out this article that I put together about MLF based upon a lot of data that can be found on line


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## Snafflebit (Oct 26, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> The one thing that MLF isn't, is inexpensive, but, you will reap the rewards when you taste the difference!
> Check out this article that I put together about MLF based upon a lot of data that can be found on line



The Viniflora CH16 I bought was about $20 so it will add $1 to the bottle of Cab Sauv I am making.



Pumpkinman said:


> you need to know your PH, TA and SO2 levels, but most of us test for this as soon as we get a juice bucket, or right after (within 24 hrs) crushing, with this info, you will know if you need to make any adjustments



I hesitated to do MLF because my pH is 4.0 but I had two professional winemakers tell me that regardless, MLF is going to happen to their reds so I should do it. The bacteria is everywhere on their equipment and they agreed that pH 4.0 is not ideal but the flavor will be better.


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 26, 2013)

Snafflekid, I've used Viniflora CH16 with success, it's a decent MLB. I agree with the professional winemakers, Malolactic bacteria has become implanted in their winery, all subsequent wine made in that winery will undergo MLF.
Like I said before, so many people make this so hard on themselves, it is a simple straight forward process.


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## Gwand (Oct 26, 2013)

snafflekid said:


> The Viniflora CH16 I bought was about $20 so it will add $1 to the bottle of Cab Sauv I am making.
> 
> 
> 
> I hesitated to do MLF because my pH is 4.0 but I had two professional winemakers tell me that regardless, MLF is going to happen to their reds so I should do it. The bacteria is everywhere on their equipment and they agreed that pH 4.0 is not ideal but the flavor will be better.



Why don't you lower the PH and then start MLF?


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## Gwand (Oct 26, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> Snafflekid, I've used Viniflora CH16 with success, it's a decent MLB. I agree with the professional winemakers, Malolactic bacteria has become implanted in their winery, all subsequent wine made in that winery will undergo MLF.
> Like I said before, so many people make this so hard on themselves, it is a simple straight forward process.



Pumpkinman. It seems confusing because some people have posted that certain MLF cultures are finicky or unreliable. So I was sweating it because I cannot tell if MLF started yet. I am keeping my S02 low which is why I thought I should get the MLF completed ASAP so I could increase the sulfite level and protect the wine from possible contamination. Newbie gwand


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 26, 2013)

Gwand, there are a few unreliable MLB, maybe because they've sat around at the LHBS too long, or for whatever reason. I stick with Lalvin 31 or MBR 41, tried and true.
As far as the sulfite level, if after a month or 2 at the most you don't test using a Chromatography test kit, you are asking for trouble, but to be honest, If I'm making wine from grapes or Juice buckets, I always test my levels and hit the grapes or juice with meta to kill any wild yeasts, my so2 levels are usually low at the end of MLF, but low isn't depleted. Once MLF is complete, I add meta.


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## Snafflebit (Oct 27, 2013)

Gwand said:


> Why don't you lower the PH and then start MLF?



I did add tartaric, but I did not want to adjust the juice all the way to pH 3.4 or so where MLF is recommended. I had no idea what amount of malic was in the juice. This is a fun project for now. pH 3.7 is what I hit.


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## Gwand (Oct 28, 2013)

Two more MLF questions. 1. Can I add ML bacteria nutrients 10 days after pitching the bacteria?
2. Can I add oak during MLF. Thanks.


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 28, 2013)

Oak, No problem, Nutrients, half dose, you don't want to leave any nutrients hanging around after MLF is complete for the spoilage organisms to feed on.


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## geek (Oct 28, 2013)

I have also added oak sticks to previous mlf; no problem here either.
I have a merlot going on now and added 1 stick as well.


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## ShawnDTurner (Oct 28, 2013)

1. Depends on who you ask whether nutrients are needed or not. 

2. Yes...malo traditionally takes place spontaneously in oak barrels and intentionally these days


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## Gwand (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks all.


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## jethro (Oct 29, 2013)

> Check out this article that I put together about MLF


Pumpkinman, where is that article you put together? I'd like to read it.


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 30, 2013)

Right below the WMT logo you will see a list of tabs, click on the articles.


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## jethro (Oct 30, 2013)

Thank you, Tom. From reading your article, I understand that in order to effectively use MLF, I would need to get
simple PH, TA and SO2 tests and Chromatography tests?
How much money does this stuff cost? One-time and recurring costs ? I have some other questions regarding MLF. May I ask them here or should I start a new thread?


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 30, 2013)

Jethro, to get within the recommended tolerances for MLF, yes..but...even before I really started to test everything, I found that as long as I used a MLB such as Lalvin 31 or MBR 41, MLF would start and complete successfully.
There are plenty of MLB that are cheaper, but they also tend to have reliability issues.
I would visit Presque Isle wine cellars, these folks have everything, plus, I've seen several wineries that buy their supplies from them. http://www.piwine.com/index.html
Ask any question that you have, no worries.


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## jethro (Oct 31, 2013)

From your posts, Tom, I deduce that MLF occurs during the secondary (anerobic) part of winemaking.

I know MLF stands for malolactic fermentation or malolactic conversion because I read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation

I learned MLF reduces the sourness or tartness of red wines (by converting malic acid into lactic acid).

I also learned MLF employs hand-picked bacteria species of the Oenococcus or Lactobacillus genera.

Now I have a couple questions:

(1) So it sounds like something that makes dry red wine taste better. This must be the factor that makes homemade wines taste amateurish compared to the same varietal of store-bought wine, eh?

(2) But alcholic beverages kill bacteria, and eventually, when the concentration of alcohol becomes sufficiently intense, yeast. So that means these MLF bacteria must be introduced during primary fermentation, correct? Or are they some kind of alcohol-resistant creatures?

(3) Does MLF occur naturally in secondary (anerobic, carbon dioxide-rich) fermentation without adding anything at all?

(4) Anybody ever try dissolving erithyritol (a sugar alcohol typically used as an artificial sweetener) in the finished wine to see how it tastes compared to putting the same wine through MLF?


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## Pumpkinman (Oct 31, 2013)

Jethro,
I'll try to address your questions:
*(1) So it sounds like something that makes dry red wine taste better. This must be the factor that makes homemade wines taste amateurish compared to the same varietal of store-bought wine, eh?*
There are so many factors that could make up the reason that you feel commercial wine taste better than home made wines, MLF is one, but aging, using quality grapes, oak barrels and years of knowledge are just as important

*(2) But alcholic beverages kill bacteria, and eventually, when the concentration of alcohol becomes sufficiently intense, yeast. So that means these MLF bacteria must be introduced during primary fermentation, correct? Or are they some kind of alcohol-resistant creatures?*
If your wine has an alcohol content high enough to kill MLB, you are probably making a fortified wine, or a brandy...lol You can co-ferment and add MLB to the primary during alcoholic fermentation, some say it's better, some say they like to carry out MLF independently, but it does not HAVE to be introduced in the primary

*(3) Does MLF occur naturally in secondary (anerobic, carbon dioxide-rich) fermentation without adding anything at all?*
The chances of it occurring in the bottle are very high and this could cause bottles to burst, make your wine sparkling, but even worse, If a spontaneous, but undesirable, strain of Malolactic bacteria becomes implanted in the winery, then all subsequent wine made in that winery, commercial or home winery, may be in danger of exhibiting the negative characteristics associated with that particular strain of bacteria. It is crucial that we add known, reliable strains of the bacteria, and not rely on the strains that have become implanted in our wineries.

*(4) Anybody ever try dissolving erithyritol (a sugar alcohol typically used as an artificial sweetener) in the finished wine to see how it tastes compared to putting the same wine through MLF?*
I don't have any idea about this, but it sounds like you would be masking any harsh acids instead of having them converted and making the wine smoother, or rounder.


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## ldmack3 (Dec 3, 2013)

I've go several 1/2 gal, 1500s and 750s leftover that need MLF. 
Do you just draw some from the carboy and swap out juice from the smaller jugs?


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## Pumpkinman (Dec 4, 2013)

You can take some of the wine that is currently going through an active MLF and add it to the smaller containers, this should work well.


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## ldmack3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Pumpkinman said:


> You can take some of the wine that is currently going through an active MLF and add it to the smaller containers, this should work well.




Since they are full I'll swap between.

Thanks.


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