# Help I Messed UP!



## txdiver (Sep 7, 2008)

I accidentally added 3 teaspoons of potassium sorbate !
Mixed it up with yeast nutrient, oh well how long should i wait now before adding yeast or another way to neutralize it before adding yeast ? PLEASE HELP


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2008)

If you have a drill mounted mix stir then in the primary bucket stir the snot out of it and then do it again. Wait a 12 hours and then stir the heck out of it again. and wait another 12 hours. At that point make a yeast starter and stir it again. wait till the yeast starter is going well and slowly add 1 ounce of must to the starter every hour till you have dbled the starter size and then add it back to the must. This is not guaranteed to work so get another Lalvin 1118 yeast packet to have handy just in case this does not work. If it does not work then keep stirring the heck out of it till it does.keep the must towards the cooler side of safe fermentation so that it will have a good chance to stay good, say 70*. Oh, by the way, welcome and sorry we had to meet like this but dont panic yet as we will try get this started . If you dont have a drill mounted stirrer then you are going to have some very sore arms as this really has to be stirred well and be done in the bucket for the gases to be released enough 

How-to: Yeast Starter
*Edited by: wade *


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## grapeman (Sep 7, 2008)

Did you use Potassium Sorbate or Potassium Metabusulfite? That much of either will likely render your batch unfermentable. The sorbate is a stabilizer and prevents fermentation. The metabisulfite kills the yeast and that much is 12 times the amount needed for a full six gallon batch.


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## txdiver (Sep 7, 2008)

Thanks Wade i'm gonna try your way


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2008)

Its a gamble but worth the try!


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## grapeman (Sep 7, 2008)

Wade do you really think stirring the must will release Sorbate? When dissolved it forms sorbic acid and not a gas like k-meta. All the stirring in the world probably won't lessen the impact of the sorbate. That is why I asked the question of whether it was k-Sorbate or K-Meta. If the sorbate was used, I would just start the batch over. 


If you do try to save this batch, the key here would be to make up a VERY VIGOROUS yeast starter. Since the sorbate prevents fermentation, it might be possible that if you introduce a very active fermentation, it could overcome the sorbate. Best of luck to you if you try it.


Welcome to the forum and I hope most of your experiences are smoother than this one!*Edited by: appleman *


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## Wade E (Sep 7, 2008)

Im thinking it sure couldnt hurt and might disperse some of it as gases usually attract other molecules and take them for the ride. That and getting the must to have a good supply of 02 will help. I know this may not work but Ive seen sorbate fail myself a few times, not quite at that ratio but what the heck.


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## JimCook (Sep 8, 2008)

Potassium sorbate has a shelf life of about 6-8 monthsand normally is half strength at a year time starting from the point where a vacuum seal was initially broken - in this case, I hope txdiver's was older rather than newer. Also, potassium sorbate doesn't prevent fermentation but rather prevents the yeast from multiplying (it's birth control for yeast). Volatility data for K-sorbate was listed as negligible and sorbic acid (the active converted ingredient in wine) is alsolow, so aeration likely wouldn't release much from the must unless the termperature was higher and that's not good for the juice.Sorbate fades with time, but that's not going to help unfermented juice. 
It would be interesting to see if consistent adding of solid yeast starters would help get the job done or at least started - the existing yeast would still ferment the sugars available as the sorbate will only prevent yeast multiplication. Outside of that untested theory, I don't know of any way to reduce sorbate levels outside of time and blending with more juice to cut the concentration (this may not be feasible as well).


- Jim


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## Wade E (Sep 8, 2008)

Sodium hydroxide will supposedly neutralize sorbic acid but I habve no idea if that is available to us or even good for us to add to wine.


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## JimCook (Sep 8, 2008)

NaOH (sodium hydroxide) is lye (think Drain-O). It's great for titrating against acid in wine for a Total Acidity test, but our bodies don't seem to like it so much. Those darn chemicals are also rather indiscriminate when they reduce acidity, so I don't believe that the NaOH would just take out the sorbic acid instead of any other acids that were available in the wine that may be beneficial to the wine's character. I don't know what else you can do, really.
Txdiver - how old was your sorbate?


- Jim*Edited by: JimCook *


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## txdiver (Sep 8, 2008)

My Sorbate was purchased in june and opened in august so brand new i would sayIts probably scrap but gotta try this was first batch of grapes grown at home. I really appeciate all the help and responses ,ill let yall know how it turns out


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## Jack on Rainy (Sep 8, 2008)

Txdiver,
Welcome to the forum and thanksfor postingyour problem. It will lead to our education!From the other posts something came up I am not clear on.


I thought the yeasts used for wine making were resistant to Kmeta so the yeastsgrow in sulfited musts and that those same yeasts would not grow in Ksorbate treated musts. But it seems likely that concentration levels of either chemical affect yeast performance thus Appleman's comment about too much Kmeta making the must unfermetable. Is that the case here? Can you guys clear that up for me?


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## grapeman (Sep 8, 2008)

Jack K-Meta kills yeast indescriminately. When you add it before fermentation, it kills yeasts- all kinds, but since you haven't added the desireable yeast, it isn't killed- just the wild yeast cells. You wait 24 hours for the sulfites to reduce to the point that you may then innoculate with the desired yeast. It reproduces(in the absence of k sorbate) and you are on your way with the desireable yeast strain. 


No the yeast we use for fermenting is not resistant to k-meta. That's why I said if concentrations were too high of eithe k-meta or k sorbate it is unfermentable(at least until levels are reduced).


Jim's point about the sorbate preventing fermentation but not stopping it is a valid one. That's why I say it is worth a shot to make a very vigorous starter and see if it can get it perking along. If you can, it may just surprise everyone and finish fermenting. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. I know what it is like to wait years to get a crop of grapes and have something come up like this!*Edited by: appleman *


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## PeterZ (Sep 9, 2008)

Yes, sorbate (potassium or sorbic acid) will prevent yeast from reproducing. The only way to ferment this batch will be to inundate it with massive numbers of live yeast cells. How big was the batch, and do you have any more grapes? 


If you have more grapes, start a batch with those grapes at least half as big as the sorbated batch. When it has really taken off, add the sorbated must to it. Be sure to get ALL the lees, as these are your active yeast cells. The combination will ferment slower than normal, but it should complete.


In the meantime, tightly seal and refrigerate the sorbated must to prevent non-yeast spoilage organisms from gaining a foothold. Return this must to room temperature before adding it to the fermenting must.


If you don't have any more grapes then your first batch will have to be a blend with a similar kit. The same procedure applies - start the kit and when it is really going add the sorbated must.


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## txdiver (Sep 9, 2008)

Everything is back in order .....mixed it repeatedly added more juice and made several yeast batches, however it seemed to do fine with first batch taste fine now but in a year who knows ,thank yall for all the replies and help, Larry


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## Wade E (Sep 9, 2008)

So she's fermenting good for now? Thats really great to hear! 

*Edited by: wade *


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## Rocky_Top (Sep 10, 2008)

Wade, you are the man!! I would have given up!!


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## Wade E (Sep 10, 2008)

If it was I mine I probably would have to but when its someone elses I make them work for it! And this batch had sentimental value since it was his first grapes grown in his own yard, nothing better then that!


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## Wade E (Sep 11, 2008)

I was just reading an article that was titled "Everything We Know About Potassium Sorbate Is Wrong". It explains a lot about how sorbate works and is good reading for anyone. Just type that in and Google it! But anyway, the amount of sorbate we use to stabilize a wine is based on a wine that has alcohol in it. If you add this same amount to a grape juice it will not prevent it from fermenting. The fact that txdiver did just this is probably why this has begun fermenting and will probably finish with no problem. The fact the so much was added might be the exception to this fermentation but we'll see. Hopefully this winemaker will jump back in and post the progress of this wine so as we may learn better from this and help others from just doing the dump. Just giving up is not in my creed, especially after this wine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## PeterZ (Sep 12, 2008)

Wade, can you post a link. I googled it but I don't think it came up.


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## Wade E (Sep 12, 2008)

*Everything* you *know* about potassium *sorbate* is wrong!


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## JimCook (Sep 12, 2008)

PeterZ,


Between the link above and the other article that is mentioned, it's difficult to find any solid science here. Can you let me know if you come up with any scientific specifics on this topic. I'm sure the vitality of the yeast and their lifecycle will be a heavy factor in this. It's kind of a 'how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood' kind of question - if the first generation of yeast are alive and kicking, how much sugar can they (and any of their children from the starter) eat before they kick the proverbial bucket? Jack Keller notes that he has seen dead yeastsediment drop out after as much time astwo months after stabilization, although this isn't to say they were or were not viable consumers during that time. 


I know that sulfite normally stupifies more than itkills yeast cells, causing a disruption in their normal activities to reduce their 'productivity'- this combined with K-sorbate causes a shock and reproductive block to convince the yeast to stop activity, so it's not that K-sorbate isn't working when yeast are active. 


While the effect pH limit of K-sorbate caps out at 6.5 and it's more effective in acidic environments, the pH of the wine shouldn't be making drastic jumps, so I can't see that being a realistic factor since the wine should be somewhere around 3.0-4.0 pH regardless. 


I think it comes back to what you and appleman said about adding starters with a good volume of yeast that are alive so they can just start eating away, even if their reproduction is potentially hampered.


All things regardless, a happy ending is a good ending. 


- Jim


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## PeterZ (Sep 16, 2008)

Jim,


I really haven't researched this extensively, but as was stated earlier in this thread, potassium sorbate is birth control for yeast. It does not inhibit their fermentation of sugar into alcohol. In addition, yeast reproduction is also inhibited by high levels of sulfite, as O2 is necessary for reproduction, albeit in very small quantities, and sulfite binds O2 and removes it from solution.


"Jack Keller notes that he has seen dead yeastsediment drop out after as much time astwo months after stabilization"


I take this with a grain of salt. Unless he has examined the sediment under a high power microscope, there is no way to determine if this is or was active yeast cells or just micro solids that coagulated into macro solids and settled. The human eye can only detect particles so small. What looks clear may not be. It takes very sophisticated equipment to determine the actual turbidity of an almost clear liquid. These instruments, which cost thousands of dollars, are used by municipal utilities using surface (river and lake) water for their potable water source to evaluate the performance of their clarification procedures.


For true scientific information on the chemistry and biochemistry of potassium sorbate the first place I would look is the Univ. of CA Davis. They are at the center of winemaking research.


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