# Cynthiana Second Run



## Tnuscan (Mar 15, 2017)

Starting with a pH of 3.85 this was brought down to 3.58 and at 6 months is as enjoyable as some nice wines I drink at 20+ dollars a bottle.

I remember saying after mlf finished I wouldn't ever do a second run again. Boy am I eating my words tonight.


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## cgallamo (Mar 16, 2017)

2nd run? Norton goes for $20 down here in North GA


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## Tnuscan (Mar 16, 2017)

cgallamo said:


> 2nd run? Norton goes for $20 down here in North GA





Yes LOL. I had read that some people thought it was a waste of time. I thought I would at least give it a go. Brought the brix to 22 and let it roll. I thought I could use it to teach myself acid additions and cold stabilization, worse case scenario. 

I was going to smaller vessels from testing and insted of using a half gallon container I put it in bottles and thought I would take a bottle and drink to see what the character would be like.

Expecting it to be a flop, I was excited to find a nice little wine to consume. Plus I'll have over 60 bottles of this to enjoy while the other wines age.


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## treesaver (Mar 19, 2017)

I almost always make a second run of any grapes that I'm making wine from. I,ve got some norton that is ready to bottle that is just six months old and is delicious! It might not make it to the bottles!


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## Norton (May 1, 2017)

I almost always do a second run on Norton. I figure for the price of some sugar I get a nice slightly lighter version of Norton wine. I think of it as an alternative to a Pinot noir.


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## mainshipfred (May 2, 2017)

Nice to see some Norton fans. If not my favorite it's way up there. I find it hard to believe so few people appreciate it. This fall will be my first attempt with grapes and I have at least 10 lugs on order locally. Will have to try the second run.


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## cgallamo (May 3, 2017)

I just got 50 vines in the ground!


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## Stressbaby (May 3, 2017)

cgallamo said:


> I just got 50 vines in the ground!



Me too! Although one got trashed yesterday when a bird got stuck in the grow tube...


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## treesaver (May 3, 2017)

cgallamo said:


> I just got 50 vines in the ground!




Now the work begins! It is a labor of love though! Good luck with your new vines.


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## cgallamo (May 7, 2017)

Thanks guys! Do you have a spray program for Norton? I heard they are sensitive to many fungicides...


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## treesaver (May 7, 2017)

cgallamo said:


> Thanks guys! Do you have a spray program for Norton? I heard they are sensitive to many fungicides...




I've never had to use any sprays on my nortons. I live on a windy hill, and have never had an issue with any of the grape diseases. I planted the first nortons over eight years ago, and credit the airflow for the health of the vines. If the wind doesn't blow in Ks, it sucks!::


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## Norton (May 8, 2017)

I sprayed for the first time last year due to high number of Japanese beetles.


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## treesaver (May 13, 2017)

Well, my back hurts! I just got my verona in the ground, and it was a pita. We have been getting rain right along, and the ground was just sticky goo, but I got them mudded in! Would have hated to have had to plant fifty, I ordered 25, and Dell Schott at Bevins Creek Nursury sent another. They were really great to deal with.


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## cgallamo (May 15, 2017)

treesaver said:


> Well, my back hurts! I just got my verona in the ground, and it was a pita. We have been getting rain right along, and the ground was just sticky goo, but I got them mudded in! Would have hated to have had to plant fifty, I ordered 25, and Dell Schott at Bevins Creek Nursury sent another. They were really great to deal with.



Congrats! Yeah 50 was pretty brutal. I dug the holes with a mini excavator, but it was still a ton of digging by hand.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 12, 2017)

I have about 6 gallons of Norton skins and wanted to do a second run. Could someone give me some advise on how much I should make?


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## sour_grapes (Nov 12, 2017)

How much wine came off of those skins to start with? It seems to me that I have heard of this expressed as a fraction of the original wine volume (rather than comparing to the volume of skins). 

I am also going to try a "sloppy seconds," and, sort of randomly, I am going to use 1/2 the amount of water as the amount of first-run wine. I would be interested to hear what more experienced hands say!


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## Stressbaby (Nov 12, 2017)

Following.
I would also love to see a picture of this second run Norton wine. Just interested in how deep the color is.


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 12, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> I have about 6 gallons of Norton skins and wanted to do a second run. Could someone give me some advise on how much I should make?



I think @vacuumpumpman does a lot of second run wines. Perhaps he'll chime in.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 12, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> How much wine came off of those skins to start with? It seems to me that I have heard of this expressed as a fraction of the original wine volume (rather than comparing to the volume of skins).
> 
> I am also going to try a "sloppy seconds," and, sort of randomly, I am going to use 1/2 the amount of water as the amount of first-run wine. I would be interested to hear what more experienced hands say!



It was 176 lbs of grapes, yielded 10 gallons or so after second racking, lots of sediment after the first.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 12, 2017)

I originally wrote "randomly use 1/2," but I just checked a file I have been keeping where I make a note of how different sources have answered your same question. Most say "1/2." For example:

https://wineandhop.com/blogs/news/15176661-make-a-false-second-wine
https://winemakermag.com/620-second-runs-to-get-more-from-your-grapes-techniques


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## padolin (Nov 12, 2017)

Im hoping to get some fruit off of my nortons next year. Im excited to see how it comes out


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## cgallamo (Nov 12, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> I have about 6 gallons of Norton skins and wanted to do a second run. Could someone give me some advise on how much I should make?


I like to use way more skin in the 2nd run than in the first. Like 3/1. This is not scientific at all, but I'll move three batches of the same size container into one, fill up the bucket/trash can with water and add enough sugar to get to %12-13. Punching the cap becomes a serious workout!


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## vacuumpumpman (Nov 13, 2017)

Please PM me about 2nd runs - there are alot of different opinions out there. 

But u do not want to press on the initial 1st run as it will take away alot from the 2nd pressing


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## JohnT (Nov 14, 2017)

In my early days, I used to make second runs all the time. I got tired of how thin and bland they were. I also hated that all I could seem to taste was the tartaric acid I added. So, for years I did not bother with it.

Then my nephew wanted to give it a try. He took the remains of 1 ton of grapes (hard pack skins) out of the press, screened them to remove any seeds, and added just 10 gallons of 20 brix/acidulated (ta .60gpl) /nutrient infused water. In the end, it looked like it was just enough water to "rehydrate" the skins. The must was so thick that we had to stir the must with a shovel.

It turned out pretty tannic and bitter, but surprisingly drinkable, or at least more drinkable than the batches I have made in the past. It would in no way compare to the "real thing", but hey, for $20 of ingredients my nephew got about 1.5 cases of wine. $1.11 is a perfect price for a kid just out of college.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 14, 2017)

JohnT said:


> In my early days, I used to make second runs all the time. I got tired of how thin and bland they were. I also hated that all I could seem to taste was the tartaric acid I added. So, for years I did not bother with it.
> 
> Then my nephew wanted to give it a try. He took the remains of 1 ton of grapes (hard pack skins) out of the press, screened them to remove any seeds, and added just 10 gallons of 20 brix/acidulated (ta .60gpl) /nutrient infused water. In the end, it looked like it was just enough water to "rehydrate" the skins. The must was so thick that we had to stir the must with a shovel.
> 
> It turned out pretty tannic and bitter, but surprisingly drinkable, or at least more drinkable than the batches I have made in the past. It would in no way compare to the "real thing", but hey, for $20 of ingredients my nephew got about 1.5 cases of wine. $1.11 is a perfect price for a kid just out of college.



I think I changed my mind for the second run and will pass on it, at least this year. Might try it later.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 14, 2017)

Booooo @mainshipfred , I still think it would be fun to try. 
It's sounding 3-5gal of sugaracid water to your skins from 10'gal yield. A few nutrients with an open carboy ready and that's it. Granted It's not 1 tons worth to 10 gal! , but still sounds like an accepted ratio. 
A lighter wine is certainly not a bad thing and would be a nice addition, actually preferred by some of my family. 
Read that original post again and re-convince yourself!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 14, 2017)

Funny you should say.... I pressed today, so I just initiated my sloppy seconds tonight. Whipped up some (as AJ says) sugaracidnutrienttannin water. I used 6+ gallons for an amount of skins that produced about 15 gallons. I think it is already fermenting.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 15, 2017)

Read that original post again and re-convince yourself![/QUOTE]

Thing is I have 70 gallons either going through MLF or bulk aging. I only have a 3,5 and 6 empty gallon left that I want to keep for racking. The skins are in my freezer so they will keep. I plan to bottle 12 to 17 maybe 23 gallons the end of the month plus fill 2 barrels. After that I may reconsider.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 15, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Funny you should say.... I pressed today, so I just initiated my sloppy seconds tonight. Whipped up some (as AJ says) sugaracidnutrienttannin water. I used 6+ gallons for an amount of skins that produced about 15 gallons. I think it is already fermenting.



Forgot what grapes you used. Let me know how the color comes out.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 15, 2017)

Don't do it unless you are convinced you can make good wine from it.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 15, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> Don't do it unless you are convinced you can make good wine from it.



It's relatively free to make so if it doesn't come out very good it's no real lose.


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## Stressbaby (Nov 15, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> It's relatively free to make so if it doesn't come out very good it's no real lose.



Right but your time is not free. It's not the end of the world if you do it and it's no good. But most of us have been there - a carboy full of subpar wine which you can't bear to dump, but it's not good enough to bottle.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 15, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> Right but your time is not free. It's not the end of the world if you do it and it's no good. But most of us have been there - a carboy full of subpar wine which you can't bear to dump, but it's not good enough to bottle.



People look at their time in different ways. I've always considered if I'm not losing the opportunity to make money I'm not losing anything, especially if I'm having fun.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 15, 2017)

My skins were from a batch of Syrah from Horse Heaven Hills. The first-run wine (i.e., "normal" wine) was inky and PURPLE. If I didn't know better, I would have suspected someone slipped some MegaPurple concentrate in there. The second-run batch has pretty good color already! (And it is throwing out a miasma of CO2 already!)

Stressbaby's point is well-taken ("But most of us have been there - a carboy full of subpar wine which you can't bear to dump"). However, *I* have not been there. Some things you have to learn for yourself. One simple reason I decided to go forward is, frankly, just to get one more practice turn at winemaking from grapes. Maybe the second time I press, the "purple typhoon" will have a smaller footprint. Maybe I will learn something that will help for 2018.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 15, 2017)

Well said Paul. That's exactly how I feel about it too.... but haven't yet. Time is also my biggest foe. 
Not just potential $ (which is big) made but also just life. Helping with Math homework and studying for the big social studies test. Guess who's father-in-law needs roof repairs this wknd? And most importantly, making sure not to neglect the woman of the house. 
She calls herself a "Wine Widow" (formally Golf Widow) - A term she claims to have coined.
A new batch is a commmitment. I will try 2nd run, but when it's a more ideal time - When the juice is worth the squeeze. And in the meantime following along other's good/bad experiences.


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## Kraffty (Nov 15, 2017)

I've done this the last couple of years and again this year. I've used probably 3 or 4 to one Pomice to Sugar/Acid water and finished it with a little black cherry concentrate for flavor and a slight back sweetening. It's light in color and flavor but a nice summery kind of drink. I unknowingly had a glass of my 2015 version last weekend that my mom had opened from her stock at her house, I ended up having a couple of glasses with our BBQ that night!

Mike


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## padolin (Nov 15, 2017)

If it turns out bad you can always make "wine shine" out of it! Nothing lost!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 16, 2017)

Update: Wow, it's amazing what starting with a big colony of yeast will do! In 36 hours, the yeastie beasties have chewed up 15 Brix! I started at 1.090 (21.6 Brix), and now it is at 1.026 (6.6 Brix). So far, no off smells (I have kept nutrients up).

Color: I think this is on track to be the 2nd darkest wine I have ever made (with, obviously, the first run of this batch being the darkest). A bit hard to tell due to the sweetness, but the taste is good so far.


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## vacuumpumpman (Nov 16, 2017)

As long as you don't press the 1st run or if u do - gently if u are planning on making a 2nd run.

I enjoy a 2nd run - just take the amount you got from the 1st run and divide in 1/2 and add that amount in sugar water according to how much alcohol u desire, according to hydrometer reading

still add fermaid K - no yeast is needed

great for blending - topping off 1st pressing or just drinking it straight.

Then press


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## vernsgal (Nov 17, 2017)

I think a 2nd run is always better than throwing out. My experience is at best,at least 1- 3rd. That's still 10 bottles of good wine ( going by ,kit of 30 bottles) That's costing you only time and space.My advice is to give it a try and you will know next time. Otherwise at least as Steve mentioned, use it for topping off


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## treesaver (Nov 17, 2017)

Steve is spot on! When making a second, I always just take the free run wine on the first, then add back with one can of consentrated red grape juice per gallon. They have always came out very nearly as dark as the first, and drinkable much sooner, but with very good color and flavor.


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