# Southern Crush Day!



## Johnd

Ok, so I guess crush was a few weeks back, but since I just got my loot, it's the same level of satisfaction. Must is resting at a balmy 28 F in brutes, it 75 in the house, so getting a little cold soaking in. From left to right, two 32 gallon, and two 20 gallons:

Lanza Clone 169 Cab Sav
Brix 26.9
pH 3.62
TA 6.0

Lanza Koch Cab Sav
Brix 26.8
pH 3.82
TA 7.2

Lanza Merlot
Brix 26.3
pH 3.49
TA 6.2

Lanza Petit Syrah
Brix 24.9
pH 3.75
TA 5.0

I'm feeling like the two cabs and merlot will be a little hot pushing 16% ABV, so they'll get watered back a smidge, along with a little tartaric on the Koch. Number look pretty nice, all of the juices really taste great too. Quite stoked!!!


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## Tnuscan

Excited for you!

I'll be keeping up with this thread for sure.


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## Boatboy24

You're pretty brave fermenting in that location!

Your PS numbers are pretty close to what jgmann67 and I both had on our Lanza PS.


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## heatherd

Looks fantastic!


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> You're pretty brave fermenting in that location!
> 
> Your PS numbers are pretty close to what jgmann67 and I both had on our Lanza PS.



LOL, everything I've fermented sits right there, not like I have any other options though. 86 F outside today, wine room too cold. I press in the kitchen. 

I was looking at the Lanza PS threads a little earlier, was nice to see our numbers so close, sort of validates them a bit. I might spill a little tartaric into the PS after it warms a bit.


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## Stressbaby

Holy cow, the rug!!!


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## Johnd

Stressbaby said:


> Holy cow, the rug!!!



What about it? I have towels under the fermenters, LOL!


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## stickman

I like this, the man has his priorities straight! John, if you replace the couch cushions with a piece of 3/4" plywood it would be a nice carboy racking table.


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## ceeaton

stickman said:


> I like this, the man has his priorities straight! John, if you replace the couch cushions with a piece of 3/4" plywood it would be a nice carboy racking table.



I know he has his priorities straight, he's the one who noticed last Spring that I dole out the heat depending on the needs of the wine, not the house occupants. His wine needs a nice setting to reach it's potential. Pamper it now and it will pamper him a few years down the road.

@Johnd , that looks like a lot of fun!


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## JohnT

I love you guys!! 

Just think, the whole house will smell of fermenting wine! To this old winemaker, that is better than that Channel #5 perfume!!!


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> I like this, the man has his priorities straight! John, if you replace the couch cushions with a piece of 3/4" plywood it would be a nice carboy racking table.



That's funny! I'd be a little worried about stability on the couch cushions! Really though, it works out pretty well, my home is always between 70 and 75 depending upon the season, which is pretty much right on track for fermenting red wines as well as conducting MLF. So the wine sits in fermenters in there for a week or so, gets pressed and carboyed to MLF for a short period of time, then into the wine room at 60 F. Pretty much everything else happens in the wine room, so it's not too intrusive. Whites get fermented in the wine room and don't impose at all on the house. Good thing is that my wife really enjoys the wine, so she tolerates the slight imposition. 

BTW, I do occasionally splash a little drop or two of wine, a spray of KMS solution on the spot completely removes the red wine stain. I do the same on my barrels when I have splashes or overflows.


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## ibglowin

Your a brave man or you want a new couch and a new rug! Punchdowns would be a disaster if I tried that!


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## FTC Wines

John, You are beyond brave! When I first started making wine in our 4th bedroom there was beige carpet in there. NO matter how careful I was I added RED polka dots on it!! Now it has a reddish oak laminate floor. Roy


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## Johnd

FTC Wines said:


> John, You are beyond brave! When I first started making wine in our 4th bedroom there was beige carpet in there. NO matter how careful I was I added RED polka dots on it!! Now it has a reddish oak laminate floor. Roy



Guess I'm just a bit of a neatnik. Your post popped an idea into my head, instead of enduring stains, embrace them. Put down a nice new wood floor in your wine room, and stain it with red wine. Literally use it like stain, two or three good coats of a cheap petit syrah, couple good sealer coats when dry..............


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## Johnd

Made my prefermentation adjustments yesterday, using acidulated water, brought the Brix on the two cabs and merlot down to 25, as I hoped it also ended up improving the pH a bit. Added .5 g/l acid to the petit syrah as well. With all of the Brix in line, and pH's between 3.48 and 3.68, pitched yeast on all four and headed out for a weekend of hunting at the property. 

I expect to return Sunday to a house full of fermentation smells, 4 caps starting to rise, getting in a good punchdown and adding some nutrients.


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## Johnd

Little disappointed upon my return, no fermentation smells, just yeast. Not sure what I was thinking, but it's pretty hopeful to think that yeast pitched in 55-60F must would be rolling in 48 hours. It probably didn't warm up to my 75F room temps until yesterday, but it's on the way now, thick and gooey on top. 

I easily noticed a very big difference in the must since adding the Lallzyme EX-V, super purple and much less viscous.


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## Johnd

I'm getting big full grown caps now, looks like the 32 gallon fermenter with 5 pails of Cab Clone 169 in it is really pushing the limit. Going to break out one of the 8 gallon fermenters and do a little transfer.


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## ibglowin

I don't know John, kinda disappointed. You could have added more I think!


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## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> I don't know John, kinda disappointed. You could have added more I think!



Mike, it was purely unintentional. I purchased my grapes, they were processed as I requested and shipped on a pallet. I was surprised to receive one more pail of the 169 than I anticipated. Not complaining, but there I was with a 32 Brute and 25+ gallons of must. Didn't transfer last nite and it was still below the rim this morning at punch, so I'm riding it out. My temps are in the high 80's, so I know I'm at the height of AF activity and it's still ok..............we'll see!


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## Johnd

Yesterday evening was my first set of numbers on the fermenting wine, which have been punched down and agitated vigorously 4-5 times per day.

Clone 169 Cab Koch Cab Merlot PS
Temp 81F Temp 82F Temp 85F Temp 85F
SG 1.080 SG 1.076 SG 1.050 SG 1.049

The two cabs are behind, as they were larger quantities and took longer to come up to room temp, hence didn't start fermenting as soon. This is probably a good thing, they won't all need to be pressed at the same time, should get a day or so of spacing between pressing, Merlot and PS first, then the two cabs.

All of the wines are very aromatic, the alcohol smell just starting to appear on the Merlot and PS. Color on the cabs a beautiful dark purple, more red in the merlot, and the PS is just incredibly dark and inky.


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## Boatboy24

You pressing on that rug too?


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## Johnd

No, the fermenters will get rolled into the kitchen for the pressing process, it's nice to be right next to the sink and have lots of countertop space. The press basket gets wrapped with saran wrap to stop those pesky little high pressure streams of juice from spraying all over the kitchen.

Too much work to move the couches off of the rug, roll it up and move it out of the area.


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## ibglowin

You know garages and back patios make wonderful places to do this kind of stuff! LOL


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## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> You know garages and back patios make wonderful places to do this kind of stuff! LOL



Point well made, depending upon where you live. Down here near hell, the high temps are still hitting the upper 80's, ranking up with the warmest October / early November on record. Although we purportedly have a "cold" front coming for the weekend, my first pressing will be prior to that, A/C work for me when the temps are like that!!! Might be able to do the garage by the time the bigger batches of cab are ready on Saturday / Sunday.


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## ibglowin

I believe the technology exist to cool down that patio or garage for a few hours!














Johnd said:


> Down here near hell, the high temps are still hitting the upper 80's, ranking up with the warmest October / early November on record. Although we purportedly have a "cold" front coming for the weekend, my first pressing will be prior to that, A/C work for me when the temps are like that!!! Might be able to do the garage by the time the bigger batches of cab are ready on Saturday / Sunday.


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## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> I believe the technology exist to cool down that patio or garage for a few hours!



Holy crap!!! I literally laughed out loud at my desk! I'm pretty sure that you have too much time on your hands, but it's a very nice idea, extravagant, but nice!!


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## Johnd

Been doing lots of mental gyrations, talking to some winemakers in CA and two here locally, and came to a decision. A little under 2/3 of the way through AF and under 10% ABV, tonite I rehydrated VP 41 with Acti ML and inoculated all of my wines. Hit them with the second dose of Fermaid K just before, and OptiMalo afterwards. Feeling pretty good about the timing and giving this the old college try.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Been doing lots of mental gyrations, talking to some winemakers in CA and two here locally, and came to a decision. A little under 2/3 of the way through AF and under 10% ABV, tonite I rehydrated VP 41 with Acti ML and inoculated all of my wines. Hit them with the second dose of Fermaid K just before, and OptiMalo afterwards. Feeling pretty good about the timing and giving this the old college try.



Nice you are willing to take the hit for the rest of us. Will be watching with anticipation of it working like clockwork!


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> Nice you are willing to take the hit for the rest of us. Will be watching with anticipation of it working like clockwork!



I do have a fallback plan, whole additional round of MLB, Acti and Opti ready to go post fermentation. I am convinced that for my batch of wines, which will ultimately be pushing the ABV limits, that getting it established and operating in a friendlier environment will be beneficial, but also believe it'll be just fine post AF as well, so I decided to experiment..........


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## Boatboy24

Take a chromatography. (wishing I was in the habit of doing that at the start)


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Take a chromatography. (wishing I was in the habit of doing that at the start)



Great minds think alike, I'll be doing one as soon as the kids go to bed.


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## Johnd

Baseline Chromo for the Californians. Not sure why I put the samples above the "x", but it made everything ride a little high. 

The PS looks a little funny because I got a little spot of wine on the upper right side of the PS tartaric spot and it trailed all of the way up. 

Plenty of malic to munch on, the little buggers are well fed and should be happy.


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## ceeaton

I like how the "red stain" part of the test that takes a ride up the test paper with the different acids gives you an indication to the red inkiness of the wine being tested. Shows your Merlot as the lightest and the Petit Sirah as the darkest. Noticed that when I ran my Zin and @jgmann67 's PS, the PS was darker hands down.


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## Johnd

Did a little SG and temp work on the wines last nite, the two larger batches are now down between 1.035 and 1.040, two smaller around 1.015. By Saturday morning I expect the smaller batches to be getting pretty dry, and larger down to the 1.005 range, so looks like tomorrow morning will be press day. Looking forward to getting these guys into glass and ordering my next victims, gonna do a couple of varietals from Grapemasters, the Tempranillo and one other TBD variety.


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## ibglowin

Sounds like you'll be getting ready to press!


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## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Sounds like you'll be getting ready to press!



That's two in row Mike, that's some funny sh*t!! These wines are a little hot, but not that hot! I pictured the look on my wife's face when she came out of the bedroom in the morning to see that figure hunched over the wine press. She already thinks I'm crazy, but that would put her over the top!

Even the misting system wouldn't keep me cool in that getup.


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## Johnd

Ready to rumble!!! You'll notice that I'm using a dropcloth this year!


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## stickman

Wow, I'd have to send my wife on vacation to pull that off; looks like fun.


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## ceeaton

Reminds me of finger painting in grade school. Someone (I wonder who) always managed to get some paint far enough away to miss the tarp. Once they made a mistake and let me got to the bathroom with my hands full of paint. I think they called my Mom and sent me home that day (so that my teacher wouldn't end my life a bit early)!


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## Johnd

PS done, pressing the merlot. Not worried about neatness with the dropcloth down, smells wonderful in here! If I could just keep the dog from licking the spillage........guess she'll sleep well.


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## Johnd

Moved on to the Koch Cab. Vacuum racking to carboy using a racking cane inside of my gajillion hole pipe. Works like a charm!!!


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## ceeaton

Ur gonna have a lot of skins for kits, that's for sure!


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## Johnd

The aftermath of press day, 9 gallons PS, 10 gallons merlot, 15 gallons Koch Cab, and 19 gallons cab Clone 169. All bubbling along peacefully, headed to dry bliss. This one man show is whooped. 

Now for a little football...... Geaux Tigers!!!!!!!!!


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> The aftermath of press day, 9 gallons PS, 10 gallons merlot, 15 gallons Koch Cab, and 19 gallons cab Clone 169. All bubbling along peacefully, headed to dry bliss. This one man show is whooped.
> 
> Now for a little football...... Geaux Tigers!!!!!!!!!



That's almost as much as I have down in the basement at this point. Quite the productive Fall for you @Johnd !


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> That's almost as much as I have down in the basement at this point. Quite the productive Fall for you @Johnd !



I've got 7 carboys and 4 barrels full in the wine room. Getting stoked for some frozen Spanish varietals, which I'll order shortly.


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## ceeaton

I wish I had some funds available, but some of the diabetics bills came due all of a sudden, so I think I'm done until next Spring (Chilean harvest). But I can't complain, I have 81 gallons worth to eventually bottle, so the pipeline is pretty full. I'm just having a lot of fun planning and making batches, need to spend more time bottling and drinking them and giving them away. Not a bad lot in general.


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## Johnd

That's pretty sweet @ceeaton, 400 bottles in the pipeline, nothing to be sad about there!! I agree, the planning and preparing, looking at the available varietals, big part of the fun. 

It was hard watching you guys getting your grapes and must knowing mine were at least a month out. Now that it's all pressed and in carboys, I'm wishing for a little more. Itching to run my first chromo in a couple weeks to see how the co-inoculation is moving along.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> It was hard watching you guys getting your grapes and must knowing mine were at least a month out. Now that it's all pressed and in carboys, I'm wishing for a little more. Itching to run my first chromo in a couple weeks to see how the co-inoculation is moving along.



We weren't pushing it in your face on purpose, but as I've gone back over the threads I can see that if you couldn't get any fresh grapes at the time it could be a little demoralizing. It's your turn to turn the tides on us, it really seems like your enjoying this Fall's ride, so keep riding the wave (for us poor people who are waiting for next Spring...).

I'm listening to some Eric Clapton and drinking too much beer, so my demeanor is steadily improving.


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> We weren't pushing it in your face on purpose, but as I've gone back over the threads I can see that if you couldn't get any fresh grapes at the time it could be a little demoralizing. It's your turn to turn the tides on us, it really seems like your enjoying this Fall's ride, so keep riding the wave (for us poor people who are waiting for next Spring...).
> 
> I'm listening to some Eric Clapton and drinking too much beer, so my demeanor is steadily improving.



Didn't mean to insinuate any face shoving if it was taken that way, the excitement was just infectious and I was ready to go. Truth is I guess, in the lives of the '16 wines, it made no difference, other than some extended frozen / cold maceration for me. Fresh grapes are possible here, just not practical, refrigerated shipping from Cali area is a killer, and an even worse drive. Local varieties, meh. 

If it's in the cards for you at all, the prices on the Spanish wines is pretty dang good, better than the Chileans for sure, and looking at the numbers, they are similar numbers to what we just saw for the Cali reds, high Brix and tasty, pH's in the 3.6-3.8 range. 

Think I'm going to skip the Chilean run this year, found the grapes to be early picked and lacking flavor, which I understand to be typical. My guy over at Musto told me that the way they are shipped with a constant infusion of SO2, means that many arrive at 40-50 ppm of SO2, and if you crush and sulfite those grapes, MLF is sometimes incredibly challenging as the bound SO2 becomes problematic. 

At any rate, cheers!!


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## stickman

I'm not getting my frozen grapes until first week in December, but I'm getting a little practice running this fresh batch of Sangiovese for a friend. I'm also enjoying watching everyone dig into this years harvest. I'm planning on bottling our 2015 Cab (33 gallons) this Friday.


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## jgmann67

I've been eyeballing this thread for a while. I think Momma would kill me if a took over the kitchen making wine. But, hokie geeze, 43 gallons of wine is a major undertaking. 

Will be interesting to see your blending notes.


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## Johnd

My post press look back. Did a little SG testing this morning to see where the wines are, and everything is in order. 

The PS, which was the fastest fermenter with BM 4x4, is pretty much still and sitting at .995, will have to get it off of the gross lees in a day or so. 

The merlot, in second place with RC 212, is still a little busy and sitting at 1.001.

Both the Koch and Clone 169 cabs, BM 4x4, are down to 1.010. They're a little behind, as it took longer for the bigger fermenters to warm up. 

All in all pretty pleased with AF, no off smells at all, got some good temp spikes into the upper 80's on each for a few days, and all sitting at 75F now, good temp for MLB. 

Pressing was long, but not arduous, 11 hours from start to sitting on the couch after a shower. Guess it'd be quicker if I had help, a bigger press, and didn't fluff and repress every cake. Larger batches are less work for the yield. 

The 169 (largest batch to date at 25 gallons) was nice, vacuum racked 2 full carboys of beautiful clear wine, almost no lees, got another 7 from pressing. Took about the same amount of time as the batches that yielded 7 / 8 gallons. Bigger batches for me. 

Tastewise, I am very pleased with all of the wines, very big fruity wines with nice tannins, the 169 is really tannic and looks like it's going to need lots of barrel and aging time.


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## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> I've been eyeballing this thread for a while. I think Momma would kill me if a took over the kitchen making wine. But, hokie geeze, 43 gallons of wine is a major undertaking.
> 
> Will be interesting to see your blending notes.



I'm happy to say, that the kitchen, with good prep and cleaning (remember the 7 P's), has been returned to its former glory, and the rug you were all so worried about is blemish free!

As for blending, I'm planning to do a little, would like to bottle 2/3 of each varietal as is, and do some blending with the remaining third. Cab, merlot and PS certainly give good options........


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## Johnd

Racked the PS and Merlot off of the gross lees yesterday evening, not much AF activity in either and didn't want them in there too long. Tasted the PS, very tart, very pronounced tannins, MLF and time should bring those both back down to earth.

The two cabs are still a little active in the carboys, right at 1.000, the lees seem to be settling down now that the AF has begun to slow. Will probably rack them either tonite or tomorrow nite to get them cleaned up a bit.

UPDATE: Racked the rest of the gang this evening, ended up with 44.5 gallons of wine. Although I'm sure to lose a little more in racking off of the fine lees as well as some angels share to the barrels, I'm sitting at 68.5% yield. 65% is the number I use when calculating chem additions, which looks to be pretty much on track for the 2016 vintage.


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## Johnd

It's been 18 days since I pitched VP41 during alcoholic fermentation, and since I like the smell of the developing solution, ran a chromo to see how the coinnoculation was working out. Looks like the PS still has a little time to go, merlot getting close to being done, and all of the Koch and Clone 169 cab carboys are done. Second pic is the chromo I ran before adding MLB. 

Sigh of relief, and pretty stoked that some wines are done just a short couple of weeks from pressing. The cabs will sit another two weeks before another racking, sulfite, and some pH / TA readings and / or adjustments if needed.


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## Boatboy24

Johnd said:


> ...and since I like the smell of the developing solution,


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## Johnd

After bottling three kits that had been hanging around waiting for a while, I ran what I hoped would be my last chromo from the fall grapes. Needed to check the PS and Merlot, which were a little slower than the cabs, as well as some small jugs that didn't get tested last time around. I also tossed the Bravado in there, since it was fermented on skins that were in an MLF environment. 

PS is done, that's good. The Merlot is still showing malic because, well, it's Merlot, won't sulfite this one with the others. The Bravado has malic also, so I'll keep an eye on it to see what happens there....


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## Boatboy24

The Bravado should have Malic. From what I've seen, kits are high in Malic.


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> The Bravado should have Malic. From what I've seen, kits are high in Malic.



Yes, it should, but I'm checking it because it was fermented with pressed skins from this fall's grapes, which were inoculated with MLB just after alcoholic fermentation started. If the MLB survived the freeze/thaw, the kit may go through MLF. Frankly, I hope it does.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Yes, it should, but I'm checking it because it was fermented with pressed skins from this fall's grapes, which were inoculated with MLB just after alcoholic fermentation started. If the MLB survived the freeze/thaw, the kit may go through MLF. Frankly, I hope it does.



But wouldn't that put it out of wack with the acid balance? Guess you could always add some more tartaric to liven it up.


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> But wouldn't that put it out of wack with the acid balance? Guess you could always add some more tartaric to liven it up.



That's what I'd try for sure. Why are kits are "acid balanced" with lots of malic acid, when we use MLB to get rid of the stuff in grape wines? I find kits to be tart, and that's what I think it is, malic acid. Makes no sense and I'd like to find out for myself. If it sucks, fine, lesson learned. I've run chromos on kits, that malic spot glows like a flashlight. Why does it work for grape wines but not kits? Our great grape wines exist with tartaric and lactic acid............My only hesitation is the concern that the manufacturers use sorbate in the production process, that'll bust the whole deal.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> That's what I'd try for sure. Why are kits are "acid balanced" with lots of malic acid, when we use MLB to get rid of the stuff in grape wines? I find kits to be tart, and that's what I think it is, malic acid. Makes no sense and I'd like to find out for myself. If it sucks, fine, lesson learned. I've run chromos on kits, that malic spot glows like a flashlight. Why does it work for grape wines but not kits? Our great grape wines exist with tartaric and lactic acid............My only hesitation is the concern that the manufacturers use sorbate in the production process, that'll bust the whole deal.



Well, if it doesn't work out you'll have a fine batch of cooking wine! Wonder if the MLB can even work on the malic in a kit if it was a chemical additive (not sure if it is natural or added). I think I heard someone here (maybe Mike ( @ibglowin )) that the MLB doesn't work on chemically added vs. natural malic, but I might be mistaken.


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## ibglowin

Correct. MLB can only metabolize natural Malic and not the man made stuff.



ceeaton said:


> I think I heard someone here (maybe Mike ( @ibglowin )) that the MLB doesn't work on chemically added vs. natural malic, but I might be mistaken.


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## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> Correct. MLB can only metabolize natural Malic and not the man made stuff.



So, what kind of malic is in kits? Probably both, eh?


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## ibglowin

Its a very proprietary process so who really knows but very well could be a mixture of sorts.



Boatboy24 said:


> So, what kind of malic is in kits? Probably both, eh?


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## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Its a very proprietary process so who really knows but very well could be a mixture of sorts.



I would presume that also, the juice from the original grapes should have it's own "natural" malic acid in there, enhanced by whatever "man made" malic is added to the kit. 

I don't know that I'll ever purposely pitch MLB into a kit, but if it happens on its own the way I describe above, so be it.........


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## Johnd

Today was moving day for the Fall wines, all having completed MLF a few weeks ago, except for the Merlot. 

The PS, which was at 3.57 preferment, finished out nicely at 3.68 and was racked off of the fine lees, appropriately dosed with KMS, and shelved in the wine room. Very dark, fruity, and slightly tannic at this point. 

The Koch Cab started at pH 3.82 and was brought down to 3.64 with acidulated water preferment, finished up at 3.77, smidge high for me. Went slow, added half gram per L tartaric and it's at 3.69, sulfited and stored. 

The Clone 169 Cab started at 3.62 and was adjusted to 3.57 preferment, finished up at 3.61, sulfited and stored as well. 

Pretty much into slow mode now, will get them in barrels over the next few months, run some pH/TA tests, taste and adjust after the barrel time is done. 

My frozen Spanish must shipment arrives next Thursday, time to kick back in gear!!


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## Johnd

Since I delayed the Spanish must til after the first, I jumped on some other tasks. The double batch Fourtitude came out of the 40L barrel, into glass, and the Koch Cab from Lanza found a new home. Last taste was funky only a few weeks ago, today it was giant, fruity, big bodied and tannic, and obviously still quite green. It's going to be good for sure. I think I need another 40L barrel. 

Moved on to the Lanza Merlot, still in the warm part of the house, doing what Merlot does sometimes, fighting MLF. Ran a chromo and confirmed that it's still hanging on to some malic acid, but I think it's made a little progress. The malic spot is lighter, the lactic is much brighter than the last run. I'm going to have to wait it out.


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## Johnd

@norcal I did some topping and sulfiting this morning, and decided to take some pH readings on these 4 wines, since they were my Fall run, to see how they fared from a pH standpoint, compared to the jumps you saw in yours. 

All four completed both AF and MLF, and had a rise in pH under .2 units, from as little as .13 to a high of .18. So the average was around .155. Not the big jumps you saw, but significant enough to warrant a little tartaric acid work, bringing them down from the 3.7's and into the upper 3.5's / lower 3.6's. 

Interestingly, the wines with the lower pH's showed the larger changes in pH post fermentations, guess they had more of the stronger malic converted to lactic. Didn't do any TA's, will check that after barreling.........


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## geek

John,
What's the pH now on the Petite Syrah?

I made my PS in the fall of 2015 and it's been in the high end, around 3.90 (went through MLF as well). I think is a bit tannic (haven't checked TA).

So just wondering what did you end up with.


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## Johnd

geek said:


> John,
> What's the pH now on the Petite Syrah?
> 
> I made my PS in the fall of 2015 and it's been in the high end, around 3.90 (went through MLF as well). I think is a bit tannic (haven't checked TA).
> 
> So just wondering what did you end up with.



Haven't checked TA either, but here's the quick history:

Initially: pH 3.75, TA 5.0
Adjusted: pH 3.57, TA 6.2
Post AF and MLF: pH 3.77, TA ?

This is the one that went up .20 units, it's a little high right now, planning on a light tartaric addition to get it down to the 3.60 range. Mine also is tannic, green, and astringent, but great nose and fruit taste, bitter in the finish. I believe that it is going to be really solid with some barrel time / aging, and plan to bottle about half as pure varietal, and use the other half in some blending.


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## Tnuscan

Johnd said:


> Haven't checked TA either, but here's the quick history:
> 
> Initially: pH 3.75, TA 5.0
> Adjusted: pH 3.57, TA 6.2
> Post AF and MLF: pH 3.77, TA ?
> 
> This is the one that went up .20 units, it's a little high right now, planning on a light tartaric addition to get it down to the 3.60 range. Mine also is tannic, green, and astringent, but great nose and fruit taste, bitter in the finish. I believe that it is going to be really solid with some barrel time / aging, and plan to bottle about half as pure varietal, and use the other half in some blending.




I like that you posted the Initial, Adjusted, post AF and MLF data and hopefully the finished numbers. We need to make a spread sheet and post our data so we and others can see the whole picture. There are many threads that start with these but fail to publish them all, Including mine.

As we finish our data we could copy and edit it to our first post on our thread. I find this information exciting and very informative. I actually read threads trying to put these things together by jotting them on paper.


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## Tnuscan

Opps! Sorry my wine I was letting breath has a smell of bandaids and I bailed the post. 

What I was also going to say was I really enjoy your posts. They are very informative with the chromos and all the information you share. I always look forward to the next one for the updates. 

I/m off to pull numbers on the wine i'm drinking. lol


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## geek

Johnd said:


> Haven't checked TA either, but here's the quick history:
> 
> Initially: pH 3.75, TA 5.0
> Adjusted: pH 3.57, TA 6.2
> Post AF and MLF: pH 3.77, TA ?
> 
> This is the one that went up .20 units, it's a little high right now, planning on a light tartaric addition to get it down to the 3.60 range. Mine also is tannic, green, and astringent, but great nose and fruit taste, bitter in the finish. I believe that it is going to be really solid with some barrel time / aging, and plan to bottle about half as pure varietal, and use the other half in some blending.



Would be interested to know if you happen to check the current TA, assuming you are not making or adding tartaric until you know the TA.


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## Johnd

geek said:


> Would be interested to know if you happen to check the current TA, assuming you are not making or adding tartaric until you know the TA.



I will check the TA before making any additions, at this point in time, my assumption is that it will fall in the 5.5 -5.7 range, which would be good. Addition of about .5 g/l of tartaric would get me into a nice 6.xx g/l TA, and probably bring the pH down into the 3.6 range, and that would make me happy..........I'll make sure to take before and after TA readings and let you know how it turns out.


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## geek

I will try to check the TA again (did it long time ago and found it in the .8), so both pH and TA were high back then; this is why I never adjusted the pH down with tartaric, but I bought a new pH probe for my PH56 meter and will try to check the TA again using 15ml of wine (no water) and 0.2N solution.


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## Johnd

Bad night of sleep = up early playing mad scientist with the lab toys. Here's a recap of the fall grape wines:

Lanza Clone 169 Cab Sav., Adjusted, Post AF & MLF - today
Brix 26.9, 25, Dry
pH 3.62, 3.57, 3.71
TA 6.0, No test, 6.6

Lanza Koch Cab Sav
Brix 26.8, 25, Dry
pH 3.82, 3.64, 3.77 (3.67 in barrel)
TA 7.2, No test, 7.1 (7.0 in barrel)

Lanza Merlot
Brix 26.3, 25.2, Dry
pH 3.49, 3.48, 3.42
TA 6.2, No test, 8.0

Lanza Petit Syrah
Brix 24.9, 24.9, Dry
pH 3.75, 3.57, 3.74
TA 5.0, No test, 5.6

Guess I kinda suck for not doing post adjustment TA readings, but I didn't. Would've been nice to see the progression. 

My plans:

Cab 169 - perhaps a slight acid adjustment, .25 g/l to bring the pH down if bench testing warrants, otherwise, good so2 management. 

Koch Cab - same as above, note that the 12 gallons in the barrel were adjusted at barreling time, the other reading is from an unadjusted 3 gallon carboy. 

Merlot - no adjustments planned. pH looks a little suspect, decreasing in MLF, might not have done a good job mixing before AF. This wine, with lowest pH, took 2 months longer in MLF, but then again, it's a Merlot......

PS - TA at 5.6 gives me some room to work, first go round probably .5 g/l should get the TA up into the 6's, pH down into the 3.6's.


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## Johnd

No change on the PS, still in barrel a bit longer, Merlot is awaiting its turn, 169 is in the 12 gallon barrel for a few more months. 

Worked the Koch cab today, which has been in carboys for nearly 4 months after a 6 month barrel ride. While in carboys, it sat on a M+ French Wine Stix. Today, at pH 3.68 and TA 6.3, I racked, sulfited, and bottled all 12 gallons, yielding 62 bottles. Pretty happy to see no sediment at all in the carboys, time certainly works wonders.......

The wine is still not terribly approachable, being both oaky and tannic, but has nice mouthfeel and finish. The fruit has been building over the bulk aging period and was good, I believe that some bottle time in the cellar will be just what it needs.


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## Johnd

Racked the Lanza Cab 169 our of the 40 L Vadai yesterday, one full 6 gallon carboy, and one partially full carboy. pH hadn't changed, still riding around the 3.71 mark, so after a little tasting, ended up adding a smidge of tartaric to the 6 gallon carboy, along with sulfite, in preparation for bottling sometime soon. 

The partially full carboy got a little more play time. Had two gallons of Chilean Malbec left over in jugs (oak cubes in them and tasting pretty nice) that i did some taste testing with. In the end, added most of the two gallons to top up the carboy and adjusted the sulfite. Little lower pH in the Malbec brought the blend to 3.64, pretty cool with that. Chileans didn't finish MLF, 169 did, so I'm spinning the wheel a little bit and keeping my fingers crossed. I doubt anything will happen with free SO2 on board, lots of bound SO2, and temps att 55F, but will wait a while to watch it before bottling. I really like the taste of this blend, both '16 vintages but one Spring and one Fall, and from two different continents, have to come up with an appropriate name for it some time in the future..


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## ibglowin

I wish it were that easy to start MLF back up but yea, I would not lose any sleep worrying about spontaneous MLF in the bottle.



Johnd said:


> I'm spinning the wheel a little bit and keeping my fingers crossed. I doubt anything will happen with free SO2 on board, lots of bound SO2, and temps att 55F, but will wait a while to watch it before bottling.....


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## sour_grapes

Johnd said:


> Racked the* Lanza Cab 1*69 out of the 40 L Vadai yesterday... and one partially full carboy.
> 
> Had two gallons of *Chilean Malbec l*eft over.... added most of the two gallons to top up the carboy
> 
> I really like the taste of this blend, both '16 vintages but one Spring and one Fall, and from two different continents, *have to come up with an appropriate name *for it some time in the future..



When I have made blends like this (from commercial wines, in my case), I have called mine my "Pan-American Meritage Blend."


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## JohnT

... but be careful! You do not know where the meritage police are! 

(made the mistake of calling one of my blends a meritage, and caught all kinds of heck for it).


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## cmason1957

JohnT said:


> ... but be careful! You do not know where the meritage police are!
> 
> (made the mistake of calling one of my blends a meritage, and caught all kinds of heck for it).


The meritage police can suck eggs. We home winemakers can call a blend of chardonnay and Chambourcin a meritage, if we so choose. None of those commercial rules apply to what we do. Now it certainly might confuse folks, but that's a different story.


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## JohnT

I agree with you, but I made the mistake of telling a professional (who registered and apparently paid the fee) that I make a meritage. He then proceeded to rip me a new one.


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## Johnd

Put an end to this chapter of winemaking today, wines were sulfited when they were racked out of the barrels, so they moved into their permanent digs. With the Koch Cab, Merlot, and Petite Sirah already bottled, the Clone 169 was the last of the 16 wines from Lanza, one batch straight Cab, one blended with 40% Chilean Malbec. I continue to be pleased with these wines, which continue to improve, and feel that I’ve gotten very good value for the money invested.


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## geek

Nice looking bottles John, good job..


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## JohnT

Very professional!


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## Boatboy24

I'm digging those labels, John.


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## jsbeckton

Johnd said:


> After bottling three kits that had been hanging around waiting for a while, I ran what I hoped would be my last chromo from the fall grapes. Needed to check the PS and Merlot, which were a little slower than the cabs, as well as some small jugs that didn't get tested last time around. I also tossed the Bravado in there, since it was fermented on skins that were in an MLF environment.
> 
> PS is done, that's good. The Merlot is still showing malic because, well, it's Merlot, won't sulfite this one with the others. The Bravado has malic also, so I'll keep an eye on it to see what happens there....
> 
> View attachment 32836



So, did the Bravado ever undergo MLF? I would like to reuse skins from MLF batch in kits but have been hesitant to do so. Would be interested to know how it turned out.


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## Johnd

jsbeckton said:


> So, did the Bravado ever undergo MLF? I would like to reuse skins from MLF batch in kits but have been hesitant to do so. Would be interested to know how it turned out.



No, it never did, at least not that I could determine from chromotography testing. The skins it was fermented with certainly had active MLB in them, but the Bravado wine always showed the presence of malic acid even after the other wines were finished. It was bottled that way and was just fine.


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## cmason1957

jsbeckton said:


> So, did the Bravado ever undergo MLF? I would like to reuse skins from MLF batch in kits but have been hesitant to do so. Would be interested to know how it turned out.


If you do decide to reuse skins, be certain not to put potassium sorbate in that kit. It should ferment dry and not be needed and I never add it, anyway. But just a warning.


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## jsbeckton

cmason1957 said:


> If you do decide to reuse skins, be certain not to put potassium sorbate in that kit. It should ferment dry and not be needed and I never add it, anyway. But just a warning.



Thanks for the heads up. I have never used sorbate and likely never will since I strongly prefer dry wines.

Right now I’m trying to determine the best way to reuse the skins. Have had good success adding them to a juice bucket but was wondering if adding them to a premium kit would be even better.


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