# Co-innoculating vs. sequential



## Mac60 (Sep 16, 2019)

For those who have had several successful Co MLF seasons under them can you give me any pointers. I have successfully always done sequential. But Co-inoculating seems to make sense.
I have 4 batches going to happen this coming weekend. I'm doing split batches D80/D254
2 50Wine/70Must OVZ 1 D80 batch and 1 D254 Batch I have CH16 for each
Also 2 30Gallons wine/43 Gallons Must batches of Lanza Sangiovese Bruello/Cab also CH16
Question, Do I keep my Yeast/Goferm and FermK scheduale the same?
Yeast/Goferm, than my Ferm-k (1) start of cap and Ferm K (2) with brix 8-10 Brix drop.
Than Add MLB CH16? when 24Hours or 48 hours after pitching yeast.
Depending on how fast the fermentation, I may be adding FermK 2 before the CH16 MLB, is that OK?
Last year I think it was 16 hours after FermK 1 that I got 8 Brix to drop and added my Fermk2
Thanks in advance .
Mike


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## Johnd (Sep 16, 2019)

Mac60 said:


> For those who have had several successful Co MLF seasons under them can you give me any pointers. I have successfully always done sequential. But Co-inoculating seems to make sense.
> I have 4 batches going to happen this coming weekend. I'm also doing split batches D80/D254
> 2 50Wine/70Must OVZ 1 D80 batch and 1 D254 Batch I have CH16 for each
> Also 2 30Gallons wine/43 Gallons Must batches of Lanza Sangiovese Bruello/Cab also CH16
> ...



I've been doing coinoculation for years, with great success. My nutrient application for yeast remains exactly the same, no changes at all.

As far as timing, I like to try to get my MLB onboard within the first 24 hours, usually just about the time you start to see some activity from the yeast. 

I've always rehydrated my MLB in distilled water, and used Acti-ML for the rehydration process. It's easy to split the resulting MLB slurry between multiple containers. 

I add my first 1/2 dose of MLB nutrients (Opti-Malo) at the same time that the MLB is introduced to the must. The second 1/2 dose is added when I rack off of the gross lees, 2 - 3 days after pressing. 

MLF normally completes a couple of weeks or so after AF, then wait another two weeks before adding sulfite, just for good measures....... Good luck!!!


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## Bubba1 (Sep 16, 2019)

I have no problem with co-inoculation and use basically the same method as john Im in the middle of a batch right now. Good Luck.........Mike


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## Mac60 (Sep 16, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I've been doing coinoculation for years, with great success. My nutrient application for yeast remains exactly the same, no changes at all.
> 
> As far as timing, I like to try to get my MLB onboard within the first 24 hours, usually just about the time you start to see some activity from the yeast.
> 
> ...


Thanks, With CH16 they specifically say not to hydrate just add to wine? I'm assuming you using VP41, would you still hydrate CH16, this has been my go to for years and I never hydrated it.


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## Johnd (Sep 16, 2019)

Mac60 said:


> Thanks, With CH16 they specifically say not to hydrate just add to wine? I'm assuming you using VP41, would you still hydrate CH16, this has been my go to for years and I never hydrated it.



Personally, having no experience with CH16, I’d follow directions, if you’ve never rehydrated it, don’t mess with success!! Yes, I use VP41, but lots of folks use CH16 and love it as well.


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## CDrew (Sep 16, 2019)

I like the CH16 and have used 2017, 2018, and will use tomorrow. No rehydration is called for. You'll be happy with it.

Short form:
"Directions for use
Viniflora® freeze-dried cultures are adapted for direct inoculation into wine. No rehydration or reactivation is required"


Long form:
https://www.gusmerwine.com/wp-conte...r-Hansen-PI_Viniflora_CH16_666285_03.2014.pdf


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## cmason1957 (Sep 16, 2019)

I have used both VP41 and Ch16, and also Enoform Alpha and Beta. Never rehydrate any of them, just added some MLB nutrition to all of them. Add my Sister-in-law often says, it's all good.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 17, 2019)

This year I co-inoculated Foch and Frontenac without Acti-ML (forgot to order) but with usual nutrition. I split one pack across two batches, left the open pack in the fridge for a week before using the second half. Did chromatography over the weekend, both are completely done <30 days from harvest.


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## Johnd (Sep 17, 2019)

Stressbaby said:


> This year I co-inoculated Foch and Frontenac without Acti-ML (forgot to order) but with usual nutrition. I split one pack across two batches, left the open pack in the fridge for a week before using the second half. Did chromatography over the weekend, both are completely done <30 days from harvest.



Did you do that with VP41?


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## Donz (Sep 17, 2019)

Here is a good read for you Mike. 

I have always done co-inoculation with VP41 and kept the same yeast/nutrient schedule. Always add the MLB exactly 24 hours after yeast.


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## Mac60 (Sep 17, 2019)

Thanks Everyone you are all awesome, I got the info I need that article was perfect, I'm planning on co-inoculating with CH-16 I did get some Opti-Malo for nutrition. looks like 24 hours is the ticket for MLB.
I'll post pic of the production. Just like last year we will hand crush 2300lbs of grapes. its a great shoulder and arm workout..


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## Stressbaby (Sep 17, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Did you do that with VP41?


Yes


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## BI81 (Sep 20, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> I have used both VP41 and Ch16, and also Enoform Alpha and Beta. Never rehydrate any of them, just added some MLB nutrition to all of them. Add my Sister-in-law often says, it's all good.



@cmason1957 have you had any issues co-inoculating with Enoferm Alpha while using Fermaid K? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Enoferm has issues with DAP, but can't seem to recall where I read this so it could be my imagination?!?


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## Mac60 (Sep 20, 2019)

We got our delivery from Gino Pinto's Today, we're going to make some wine this weekend


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## stickman (Sep 20, 2019)

Looks like you're making just a little bit of wine....


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## cmason1957 (Sep 21, 2019)

BI81 said:


> @cmason1957 have you had any issues co-inoculating with Enoferm Alpha while using Fermaid K? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that Enoferm has issues with DAP, but can't seem to recall where I read this so it could be my imagination?!?


Sorry, I was away from the internet for a couple of days and just saw this. I don't co-inoculate. I am old school on that and wait until after I rack off the gross lees. It has always worked for me, so I'm not planning on changing any time soon. Only downside I can see is no SO2 for the or for months. That isn't really a downside.


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## pgentile (Sep 21, 2019)

I have co-inoculated with both vp41 and ch16 the past couple of years. I re-hydrate with tap water and do typical yeast nutrient additions. 24-72 hours after yeast. No issues. I also use the skins for subsequent juice bucket batches and don't add new yeast or MLB. Good luck with all those grapes.


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## Mac60 (Sep 25, 2019)

Breaking tradition this year, I have been wanting to do this for the past 2 seasons, just didn't have the nerve to do it until this year. Little changes make me nervous, but you guys definatly pushed me over the edge this year. There is no turning back, just need to see the end result in a few weeks with the ML Test. All looking and smelling good on Day 3 Co-inoculated all with CH-16 24 hours after pinching yeast. We're looking at 100 Gallons of OV Zin and 60 Gallons of Lanza Sangiovese Brunello/Cabernet Sav

Old Vine Zins: 24 Brix PH 3.80 took it down to 3.66, TA was .72 the adjustment took it to .80, SG-1.100
Lanza Sangiovese Brunello/Cab Sav: Brix-24, PH 3.64 TA.75 Made no adjustments





View attachment 56510


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## Donz (Sep 25, 2019)

Nice looking pics! Was your Zin a straight 100% Zin?


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## Mac60 (Sep 25, 2019)

Straight Zin! No fun in that...
We have a special Cosa Nostra reciept. 75% OV Zin, 15% Barbera, 7.50% Alicante, 2.50% Muscat. Everyone loves this blend and does not want to change it after 6 years I did reduce the Muscat the last 2 years it was 5% and for me was too sweet. Now its perfect for an everyday any meal wine, you could also chill it in the fridge and have it in a small orange juice glass for breakfast....
Donz, Thanks again for the info
Mike


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## Donz (Sep 26, 2019)

That sounds like a very interesting blend Mike. I guess we have something in common - wine in a small orange juice glass for breakfast! haha

Hope your wine and MLF work out great. I'm sure they will. 

Looks like we decided on a 80% Maggio Zin / 8% Petit Syrah / 12% Carignan. Might even cut the petit to 5%...


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## Mac60 (Sep 26, 2019)

Donz,
looks like a nice blend.
How about I send you a bottle and you send me a bottle and we compare.


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## Donz (Sep 26, 2019)

Sounds great Mike. Let's let our wines get some age and touch base when the time is right.


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## Jay204 (Sep 26, 2019)

For those that co-inoculate - does the timing of the co-inoculation seem to matter much? I was originally planning on a sequential inoculation (partially due to BM4x4 not being recommended for MLF), but I've since changed my mind. The issue is that I pitched my yeast on Sunday. So I was thinking I'd add the MLB near the end of primary ferment (which is what the VP41 directions suggest to do).

I also don't have Acti-ML for rehydrating, if that matters for timing. I do have MLB nutrient, however.


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## Donz (Sep 26, 2019)

Yes the timing does matter very much. It needs to be added 24 hours after pitching your yeast so you are too late for co-inoculation. You will need to stick with sequential. 

FYI - BM4x4 works perfectly fine with co-inoculation and I have used it several times with VP41 in the past.


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## Jay204 (Sep 26, 2019)

@Donz can I ask why it's too late? Perhaps it's not considered a co-inoculation anymore but is there an issue starting an MLF while still in primary near the end of a fermentation vs waiting until it's in a carboy?


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## Donz (Sep 26, 2019)

I have never done it that way but you should wait until primary alcohol fermentation is complete. VP41 instructions suggest 24 to max 48 hours after pitching yeast depending on your So2 levels at crush. Have a look: http://tools.lallemandwine.com/wine-bacteria-sensory-profiling/pdf/MBR_VP41_Lalvin.pdf


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## Jay204 (Sep 26, 2019)

Donz said:


> I have never done it that way but you should wait until primary alcohol fermentation is complete. VP41 instructions suggest 24 to max 48 hours after pitching yeast depending on your So2 levels at crush. Have a look: http://tools.lallemandwine.com/wine-bacteria-sensory-profiling/pdf/MBR_VP41_Lalvin.pdf



Strange, I found this spec sheet which contradicts that. I guess I'll wait until post press to be safe. It'll just be harder to distribute the MLB in smaller quantities throughout several carboys.


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## Jay204 (Sep 27, 2019)

For those that are interested, I spoke with someone in the oenology department at lallemand. She confirmed that co-inoculation should take place ideally no later than 24 hours after pitching yeast and sequential should only take place after the must has reached final SG, otherwise it may "interfere and compete with bacteria added when yeast are declining"

She also commented on when to choose co-inoculation vs sequential, stating "co-inoculation typically results in more fresh and fruit driven wines while traditional sequential inoculation has more ageability and complexity".


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## Wheelman (Sep 28, 2019)

Mac60 said:


> For those who have had several successful Co MLF seasons under them can you give me any pointers. I have successfully always done sequential. But Co-inoculating seems to make sense.
> I have 4 batches going to happen this coming weekend. I'm doing split batches D80/D254
> 2 50Wine/70Must OVZ 1 D80 batch and 1 D254 Batch I have CH16 for each
> Also 2 30Gallons wine/43 Gallons Must batches of Lanza Sangiovese Bruello/Cab also CH16
> ...


I have never co-inoculated. Reading thru this I didn't notice any talk about quantities. if I co-inoculate do I use must quantity or potential juice quantity to base amount of ML bacteria to pitch. Or does it even matter?


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## stickman (Sep 28, 2019)

I would base the bacteria addition on the expected wine yield not the must volume.


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## Mac60 (Oct 3, 2019)

OK 1 week and a day after pitching the MLB CH16 did the 1st racking on Tuesday off the gross lees and tested yesterday, Look like the Malolatic acid is just about complete I'll give it another 2 weeks and test again. I'm running out of room, Think we maxed out our production.





Mike


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## CDrew (Oct 3, 2019)

Nice set-up. Glad your co-inoculation worked out after all the positive recommendations here.

Congrats!


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## Mac60 (Oct 3, 2019)

CDrew said:


> Nice set-up. Glad your co-inoculation worked out after all the positive recommendations here.



You Betcha, Again thanks allot for the info and encouragement, Time will tell with the taste, but up to this point I see Co-inoculation as my protocol from this season on, Now I just need to get a bladder press for next year.
Mike


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## Donz (Oct 3, 2019)

Looking good Mike! I always give it a few extra weeks resting before stabilizing with sulfite just to ensure MLF is completely done. 

Great set-up, love the steel tanks.


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## Mac60 (Oct 3, 2019)

Donz said:


> Looking good Mike! I always give it a few extra weeks resting before stabilizing with sulfite just to ensure MLF is completely done.
> 
> Great set-up, love the steel tanks.


For sure I will give a few more weeks before So2 dose.
Thanks Donz,


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 6, 2019)

Looking good! Glad the co-inocculation is working. I'm definitely a convert.


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