# Endless Summer Winery



## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

As you know, i've been working hard to go commercial with our wines. we'll we're there. time to actually start. i would like to keep this thread concise to help others in the future and provide as much info as i can. We are located outside of Hermann, Missouri in Montegomery County (Hermann City is in Gasconade County). We are making fruit wines, mixed wines and fortified wines. 

First, I'm going to go into details about actually starting a winery. That starts with paperwork. Lots of it. First you need a business license (such as a LLC). Then you have to come up with property layouts (diagrams built to scale) for the ATF. there's alot of paperwork involved in submitting to the ATF. They'll want to know how much you plan on making, how you are going to get rid of the waste (both water and solids) and other miscellaneous details (like an FBI background check on all people involved in ownership). You will also have to deal with the department of natural resources (DNR) for water quality and waste disposal. They want information about how much waste each wine will create because that's another way of them checking you are being legit about quantities of wine made. After filling out about 20 pages or so (with diagrams added), you then get word from them whether you are ok to proceed. Then there is State Gov't, which every one is different. Most of the paperwork is the same in our case, in another form basically. I, personally didn't fill out most of the paperwork, so I'm not sure about all of it. Then there is county and city (if applicable). We're not in city limits. . There are other licensing you have options of getting, like beer sales, etc. Food on premise is much more paperwork, that we didn't feel like we needed. byof! Within 3-6 months of working on paperwork, making diagrams and sending off paperwork (with checks $), you can be licensed to make wine. In all, i think there was about $1500 for just fees.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

Lets talk about the property.

Before doing the above, you'll want a good spot. Zoning is an issue. Schools and churches can be a problem. Make sure before buying property, you get permission from local governments (in writing!) that the place is good to go. Remember to look into water and waste disposal options. Heating and cooling are another issue. We bought a house with an extra large garage (30' x 30'), heated and cooling already inside, with SEPARATE electric meter. that part is also a must have. A winery has to be separate from any residence for the building (although technically the building can be the same, IF there are not ANY entrances from the inside between the two. Meaning you have to go outside to enter the winery part of the building). Water and electric must also be separate. Also, you need to build the walls and floor to deal with water for cleaning and sanitary purposes. We put up plastic paneling and installed floor drains (concrete work sucks!). Hot water is also a must. You'll need a parking or some kind of street access. Location is also key. easier to make money when you have traffic nearby. we are off a the major road that goes into Hermann, which is one of the first appellations in the country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann,_Missouri). A good view never hurts







Be aware that the ATF is also very concerned with security. We were lucky that we have a one-way-in building with small windows. the door was steel already and the windows will be barred from the inside (made by me). there are other security measures we have taken, but it's not something you want to reveal . to put it simply, it must be secure and they will want your plan to do so in the paperwork. I just hope we don't lose the keys for some reason! lol


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

ok, now lets move onto the equipment.

we aren't rich, so we had to go plastic. if we do well, we'll convert to SS. we have about 2100 gallons worth of tanks. first year goal, make 10,000 bottles. i'll divulge what will fill them in another thread closer to opening day, so please be patient . i'm aware of the bent tank stands. they will be replaced (not our fault).




primaries





an SS press is a must have. wood just won't last as long and they're really not that much cheaper.





a pump is a necessity, but they are really expensive to do wine with must. so, we have found a special wand made of stainless that will filter out the must. cheaper pump =$750, wand= $250, must pump = $2500+. money is an issue and you'll have to be creative to save it. if you have high ceilings, build racks up the wall and start the primaries up high. use gravity just like at home, if you can. we only had 9' ceilings and couldn't do it. 10' might work, but a building without a ceiling would be even better.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

also, the health department will require certain things. work with them before you try to get an inspection. call them up and ask what they will want with your situation. sinks are a must have also.





hand sink, restaurant style. even though we can wash our hands in the other sink, they wanted a "hand wash station."


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

now for ingredients. we have made contacts with farmers and suppliers for the types of wines we are going to produce. growing grapes isn't easy, nor is harvesting berries and such. the market is good for buyers, so look around and you'll find great deals. we have a few extra ingredients that i cannot divulge (eww, top secret, lol), but be aware that making large quantities of a different style of wine isn't easy. i plan on expanding and eventually growing select types of plants. 

labels. the label we are going to be using will be posted here and hopefully soon. i have a graphic design degree and am using GIMP (FREEWARE  ) to produce it. it's similar to photoshop, but a little slower to get the right result as it lacks some of the quick and easy features. it's also a RAM hog and an older computer can't hack too many files at the same time. luckily mine isn't too shabby for how old it is. if the label is uniform to each variety with only slight wording changes, i believe you can get by with only making one and describing what will change for each. also, labels aren't cheap. a printer is about $2,500 and labels for them are ~5 cents or so. if you buy them from a company, they will run about $1500 for 10,000 and usually $500 for a design (which i wouldn't need).

Advertising. This is very important for a new winery, but ours is simple. Get a sign on the major road leading into town, get some business cards and create a website. i'll have a site up before opening and will post it here. it won't be fancy, but we are thinking of doing a Missouri only shipping via phone. Not sure about that though.

Tasting room. It is built and needs interior finished, but we are doing the minimal work, so nothing real fancy. Function is more important than form, but it doesn't hurt to make things appealing either. It will be clean, simple and hopefully, enjoyable for all. It must also have water for hand washing, which now has turned into putting in a full septic system for just a sink! Since that is the case, we are putting in bathrooms.

Restrooms. You have to have them and since the above happened (health departement), we are going to have indoor bathrooms. It's not going to cost us more because a system is already required. There are requirements for handicap and we are happy to comply with those. We want the experience to be good for everyone.


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## PPBart (Jul 28, 2010)

Midwest Vintner said:


> ...We are located outside of Hermann, Missouri in Montegomery County (Hermann City is in Gasconade County)...



Great thread! Do you know the history of Hermann and wine? I just finished reading "The Wild Vine", a history of the Norton grape and how it almost became a great grape. Hermann plays a large role in the history, and is described as "the Napa before there was really a Napa".

Best of luck for your venture!


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## Runningwolf (Jul 28, 2010)

Midwest, thanks for starting this thread. Awesome pictures and I look forward to reading your posts as you progress. Best of luck to you and your new venture.


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## countrygirl (Jul 28, 2010)

please keep us posted for opening day...you are close enough, i will try my bestest to be there!


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## grapeman (Jul 28, 2010)

Interesting stuff. Can you tell me what the conical tanks are? They look like the ones from Plastic-Mart. They say they are for wine, but I'm wondering how you make them airtight with a vented lid. Is that an option? How do you draw out of them without disturbing any lees at the bottom? I'm assuming these ewill act as secondaries for short term storage.

Your sinks look like the ones I bought for my winery, except I got a three compartment with only a left side drainboard. They are very nice. The handsink looks identical-faucet even.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

grapeman said:


> Interesting stuff. Can you tell me what the conical tanks are? They look like the ones from Plastic-Mart. They say they are for wine, but I'm wondering how you make them airtight with a vented lid. Is that an option? How do you draw out of them without disturbing any lees at the bottom? I'm assuming these ewill act as secondaries for short term storage.
> 
> Your sinks look like the ones I bought for my winery, except I got a three compartment with only a left side drainboard. They are very nice. The handsink looks identical-faucet even.



yep, plastic mart tanks. they lids can be sealed (not an option, but the hole is small), so that's not really an issue. to draw out of them, we'll have to use a thief. they are far from ideal, but far from the price of ideal. 

i really like the sink and there are 2 of us really working the wine so 2 sides makes it easier. Handsinks must be in every building used for wine making or wine sales for sanitation. 

Gotta go, sugar arrived!


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## winemaker_3352 (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah - definitely let us know when it opens - i will have to take a 2 hour drive and check it out.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 28, 2010)

PPBart, actually, i've read alot about Hermann (one of the top 3 wine producing cities in the world in the mid-1800's, IIRC), but there is always more to know.

I will let all know when we open and thanks for good wishes. i'm not ashamed to say i've learned alot in here. when i started, it was all experience from making wine and i wasn't as interested in it as an exact science. in the last 2 years, i've been studying hard. problem is, we do wines that most don't, so much of the knowledge has to be used subjunctively.

i hope the information here might clarify what is needed and if you are willing to do so. Our budget is in the $90-120K range to get this going, counting all improvements, equipment, ingredients, etc. That is without property costs, which is relatively small for us. This is Missouri cost, so the coasts will be much higher. For example, our home with all the buildings and 3.7 acres was less than $150K.


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## rodo (Aug 5, 2010)

Love the photos looking forward to more.

In the August issue of Southern Living magazine there is a one page article about Hermann with a mention of Stone Hill Winery and a photo of the Adam Pucta Winery. The article says your area was the "largest wine producing region in the US prior to prohibition" and that "Hermann is is central to Missouri's up and coming wine country".


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## Roatan_Mark (Aug 18, 2010)

Bravo on the new venture! I am interested in how the plastic actually works out as I am really close to buying a couple of 30 or 60 gallon type for our small place here on the island. SS as you say isnt an option at this time due to cost. I do believe that plastic if well cared for should last a while anyway.


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## okree (Aug 28, 2010)

*Primary Bins*

If you don't mind me asking, what is the capacity of your primaries and where did you find them?

BTW, excellent information.... thanks for sharing!


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 31, 2010)

Aub-Juan said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what is the capacity of your primaries and where did you find them?
> 
> BTW, excellent information.... thanks for sharing!



240 gal. from plastic mart (online). 

Mark>>i agree. the plastic isn't thin and thus far, has held well. we've got 2 of them full now with NO headroom. as grapeman pointed out, there are vents in the lid that we've had to work around, but fixed that with cutting a piece of food grade plastic the size of the hole and jamming it in there. i'm sure there is a tiny bit of air getting past still, but not enough to do damage compared to the amount of wine. we are looking into using gas to protect it, but as of now, the wines are being made to be bottled early to make a late spring opening.


UPDATE: we now have blackberry, pecan and pineapple wines in the making!!!


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## Tom (Aug 31, 2010)

Good luck !


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## Woodbee (Aug 31, 2010)

Glad to see that you guys got more nuts a cookin. I hope they are all MO pecans and not those snooty NM ones.
Brad


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 1, 2010)

Woodbee said:


> Glad to see that you guys got more nuts a cookin. I hope they are all MO pecans and not those snooty NM ones.
> Brad



yep, from MO


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## jeepingchick (Sep 1, 2010)

oh wow! wish u were closer so i could come walk around and drool over the equipment!!


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## myakkagldwngr (Sep 1, 2010)

If 'n' when, we can afford to travel again we'll have to pay you a visit. 
My wife is orginally from the St. Louis area and still has a SIL that lives in Warsaw. She has cousins and such still, but all her immediate family are gone.
I like the area her SIL is living at. Country, Truman lake, deer in the back property,,, what more could you ask for,,,
oh yeah!!!
Wine.
I loved the write up you did. Who doesn't dream of having a business you enjoy doing.. With all the licenses and paper work, is there a minimum size you have to meet to be considered a winery. Could you start small and then build up as you go along?


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## okree (Sep 2, 2010)

So.... do the cone-bottom tanks allow you to rack off sediment from the bottom, or do you still need to transfer to a new tank? I'm trying to decide between the 200 gallon cone-bottom tanks and the FlexTanks.


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 2, 2010)

myakkagldwngr said:


> I loved the write up you did. Who doesn't dream of having a business you enjoy doing.. With all the licenses and paper work, is there a minimum size you have to meet to be considered a winery. Could you start small and then build up as you go along?



thanks. there is not a minimum, but there is for actually making a profit. since the bonds and licenses are fixed and the operating costs are similar, you have to make so much wine or charge so much for it to make money. we are not going to make alot or be expensive. bottles in the $10-15 range. first year about 10-12,000 bottles (very small amount of wine if you look into winery numbers). if we don't sell them all, they'll just age and we'll make less the next year. we do plan on growing!

aub-juan- we rack from the top down. using a rod with a SS filter.

jeeping chick- road trip?


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## ffemt128 (Sep 2, 2010)

jeepingchick said:


> oh wow! wish u were closer so i could come walk around and drool over the equipment!!




Watch the drooling, he will have to re-sanitize everything and you may just end up in the corner again.....


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 3, 2010)

ffemt128 said:


> Watch the drooling, he will have to re-sanitize everything and you may just end up in the corner again.....



tell me about it! home sanitizing for wine is cake compared to the winery. dare i say that i miss just making 5 gal? 

First draft of the label. my parents want it simple and country. boooo! i wanted to throw a little artistic touch, as i'm a graphics nut, but nope. just simple (minus an entire crop of the sunflower to give a foreground). let me know what you think. still have time before approval. still needed a back label....


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## pwrose (Sep 3, 2010)

Why not a picture of a handfull of pecans in a wine glass. Not a sunflower for a pecan wine, not that the lable is a bad one but something there just doesnt add up.
Sunflower pic = pecan wine
Glass full of pecans = pecan wine


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## Roatan_Mark (Sep 3, 2010)

I agree with pwrose, seems the label is a bit off target for a pecan wine. But then again I am no expert at advertising....... Maybe a pecan tree in it's full summer glory with a glass full of pecans in the foeground. But then again you do need consistent recognition of your winery label reguardless of the type of wine.


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## Roatan_Mark (Sep 3, 2010)

On another note, you said you rack off the top of the tanks. So you only use the valve at the bottom of the conical to drain and clean after racking? I always thought as in brewing that you could crack the valve for a moment to eliminate the lees sitting on the bottom instead of re-racking again and again to age in bulk. So you age in the bottles? What did I miss? I was going to get a couple of the conical plastic tanks just for that reason so if indeed it isn't feasible to do such a drain because of pressure or whatever then the idea of a conical for me is moot, might as well just use something cheaper.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 3, 2010)

I like the idea of Pecans in the glass


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## myakkagldwngr (Sep 5, 2010)

Yeah, the pecans in the glass would be really nice. Then if you can get someone good at photo shopping, have a squirrel sitting beside it with a pecan in it's paws.


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## countrygirl (Sep 5, 2010)

myakkagldwngr said:


> Yeah, the pecans in the glass would be really nice. Then if you can get someone good at photo shopping, have a squirrel sitting beside it with a pecan in it's paws.








found this one, thought it was cute. maybe andy could do some magic with the text.


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 5, 2010)

Roatan_Mark said:


> On another note, you said you rack off the top of the tanks. So you only use the valve at the bottom of the conical to drain and clean after racking? I always thought as in brewing that you could crack the valve for a moment to eliminate the lees sitting on the bottom instead of re-racking again and again to age in bulk. So you age in the bottles? What did I miss? I was going to get a couple of the conical plastic tanks just for that reason so if indeed it isn't feasible to do such a drain because of pressure or whatever then the idea of a conical for me is moot, might as well just use something cheaper.



we will do some light aging in the tank, but mostly in the bottles. you could crack the bottom open for the lees, but you'd be using wine to push it out. therefore, you'll be losing more of the wine than you would otherwise. we pump the wine IN through the bottom using the pump. the "fully-draining" is more for cleaning than anything. it's hard to clean other tanks as the openings in the top being too small make it difficult to clean the bottms of other tanks.

the label is a generic label for ALL of our wines. it would cost us more to have a different label for each wine. i would like to do a different label, but i'm out numbered (there are 3 of us in it). was agreed one label for every wine, with only the wine type/name changing. no biggie really as we are more concerned with wine quality, price and having a nice environment to drink the wine. believe me, i've tried to convince them into a more extravagant label. they don't think it fits with our wines.


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## countrygirl (Sep 5, 2010)

i think having the same label is the going thing. my "local" winery (30 mi. close) has the same little purple toad and the winery we visited yesterday (st. francois) has a very humorous vat with good ole' country folk stomping them grapes
that way, anytime someone sees your label, they know it's yours! i think the different labels are fun for us homemade winers...fun to play with 'em on the computer. 
how far away are you from farmington/park hills?


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 7, 2010)

countrygirl said:


> that way, anytime someone sees your label, they know it's yours! i think the different labels are fun for us homemade winers...fun to play with 'em on the computer.
> how far away are you from farmington/park hills?



not sure where that is??? i came from st. charles county and know St. Louis better than the country.

country girl hit the nail on the head. it's called name or brand recognition. i took marketing in my "multimedia" studies. there are a few ways to get people to buy your wine, but nothing is better than name or brand recognition. for example, fat bastard is well known for it's name of course and wines like yellow tail have the same label with just different colors. Wild Horse has a very low detailed horse and so on. to me, it's not a huge deal as we are selling through our own tasting/retail location. we can change the label later if we want, but IMO, i hope word of mouth and the tastings will sell the wine for us.


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## countrygirl (Sep 7, 2010)

i now see opening spring '11!!
i see a road trip in my future! 
(again!, lol, i love road trips!)


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 7, 2010)

Park Hills is about 2 hours southwest of Hermann.


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## countrygirl (Sep 7, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> Park Hills is about 2 hours southwest of Hermann.



dang jon, park hills was 3 hr. for me, so that's 5 hours...
i see an overnite trip in my future, lol


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 7, 2010)

countrygirl said:


> dang jon, park hills was 3 hr. for me, so that's 5 hours...
> i see an overnite trip in my future, lol



Yeah - that would be an over nighter - unless you want to leave at like 3AM and get home at midnight .

It can be done - i could have done that about 10-15 years ago - i need my sleep now though..


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 7, 2010)

Midwest Vintner said:


> lets talk about the property.
> 
> before doing the above, you'll want a good spot. zoning is an issue. schools and churches can be a problem. make sure before buying property, you get permission from local governments (in writing!) that the place is good to go. remember to look into water and waste disposal options. heating and cooling are another issue. we bought a house with an extra large garage (30' x 30'), heated and cooling already inside, with SEPARATE electric meter. that part is also a must have. a winery has to be separate from any residence for the building (although technically the building can be the same, IF there are not ANY entrances from the inside between the two. meaning you have to go outside to enter the winery part of the building). water and electric must also be serparate. also, you need to build the walls and floor to deal with water. we put up plastic paneling and installed floor drains (concrete work sucks!). hot water is also a must. you'll need a parking or some kind of street access. location is also key. easier to make money when you have traffic nearby. we are off a the major road that goes into hermann, which is one of the first appellations in the country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann,_Missouri). a good view never hurts
> 
> ...




You could use this as the back drop to your label - i am assuming this is a picture of you property? Nice picture - play around with see what you can do.


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 7, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> i am assuming this is a picture of you property? Nice picture - play around with see what you can do.



yes sir. a view of the valley, but it's off our deck , meaning the winery tasting area will get less of the view, but will have views of hills in two other directions that we don't have. more pics when we get the tasting room up in early spring. we have alot of work to do still!!!!

that is a good idea too. my aunt had said the same exact thing this weekend. use the valley as the background. my parents are concerned it will be too cluttered, so i dunno if it will work. i'll give it a try when i get some time.


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 7, 2010)

Yeah - could something simple like this:


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## umbrellalady (Sep 7, 2010)

I think that the view of the valley is an excellent idea. I think that although the sunflower is striking and you would be able to pick it out on a shelf very easily, it might be too simplistic and somewhat misleading. 
Could you get a good morning picture just when the sun is coming up and hits the trees? I don't know which way you face but when the sun hits the trees everything just glows. It would be nice. Or could you possibly do an artfully arranged still-life display of all the various fruits, etc that you are planning to use and just watermark them with a darker two-tone font on top?


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 8, 2010)

this is to the west watching as the sun goes down

sometimes the simplest things work. IMO, the pic of the winery or their view is overdone. i've looked at over 1000 labels probably just trying to get a good handle on it. there is sooo much you can do, but in the end, the most recognizeable labels are the ones with a simplistic label. there are also a few lables without any real pictures on them, but most are old school french/italian brands.


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## grapeman (Oct 8, 2010)

How is the winery coming along? How are the plastic tanks working out for you guys? I need to add more storage myself as I find myself in possesion of around 800 gallons of wine in the works. I just bought a 162 gallon stainless tank today- not cheap - but well buildt.


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## Midwest Vintner (Oct 10, 2010)

stainless is awesome, but we just can afford it. so far the plastic is good. we have a few soft scrubbers to clean them and it takes a little time. i will say though, the primaries are not as suitable as they will bow out with more than 150 gal in them and they are supposed to hold 240 gal. this means we cannot ferment two larger batches at once. not an issue right now, but might be if we expand. that said, i hope we can afford a nicer ss tank to ferment in that can do 300 gal. also, the 300 gal are not easy to clean from the top due to being taller.

we have about 600-700 gallons going right now. i'm not sure on the exact number, but in that ballpark. i will announce the starting lineup closer to opening. i would hate to have a competor beat us to the punch, as there are 7 wineries close, 2 not too far and i hear more might be opening.

that said, all batches have gone well and i've even changed up some of normal yeast variants per batch due to wade and others ravings of the red starr brand. we used to use them more (about 5 years ago), but stalled batches converted us to using lalvin. now we have a better understanding of wine, better tools and more control over fermentation, so we are trying a few new/old (?) things. 

in this economy i could see getting some good used tanks, but i'm not sure if our AVA area is being hit so bad. so there might not be what we need in this area for pickup.

On a side note, my aunt brought her own honey from her hives in the country and we've made our FIRST mead. Considering all the other wines we've done, i'm glad we're trying mead as i do like it from what i've tasted. Her bees were working on wild prairie, so the taste is a very complex flowery (<is there a word for it?) taste and aroma. Very impressed with the honey and i wish we could get good honey commercially for a descent price. We will look into that after this batch is finished.

Grapeman, i like your active role in critisicms and feedback. It's good to get some real feedback from people with knowledge and experience. New ideas are always welcome!


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## grapeman (Oct 10, 2010)

I can understand your needing to keep some things vague. It seems like others just look and wait for tidbits of information you post to take advantage of you. So far there aren't that many competitors near me, so I can be a bit more free with the rest of you.

I am using mostly plastic myself, but I decided to add at least some longer lasting storage each year as I expand. I had planned on about 500 gallons this year, but am up to about 700 gallons so far. Next year I should have double this year and then the following year about triple - then who knows.........


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## Wade E (Oct 10, 2010)

Grapeman is about as experienced in vineyards as anyone I can think of and a great asset to this forum. Kind of a character in person too. Oh hey Rich, is that you over there? I think Floral was the word you were looking for with the honey. I hope the Red Star works well for you, Ive never had a problem with it ever, only the Lalvin. Im playing around with yeasts also and tried the Enoferm BM45 on my Petite Sirah today only to find that my friend that had won best red wine and best of show with his Petite Sirah last year did it with Red Star Pastuer Red, the exact yeast I had on hand and was going to use! hehehe


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## winemaker_3352 (Oct 10, 2010)

I have to agree - rich knows his stuff - he has helped me numerous times..


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## Midwest Vintner (Oct 11, 2010)

Wade E said:


> I think Floral was the word you were looking for with the honey.



yep, thanks wade, was super tired yesterday. had a wedding over the weekend and had to drive 4 hrs early in the morning on Saturday after working the night before. didn't get much sleep that night and had to drive back yesterday. 

i would love to have enough property to raise more fruits myself, including some grape varieties. 4 acres isn't near enough. i don't think we could afford it either. it will take time before come out ahead and i can't imagine how the larger wineries started. must of had some real rich proprietors. i guess to make a small fortune in the winery business, you need to start with large one.

i will say this forum has very good information and members. that's is why i stay on and try to be helpful.


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## robie (Oct 11, 2010)

Hey Wade,
Watch that BM45. It can foam like crazy (8 to 12 inches) and fool you into thinking it doesn't need any nutrients, then turn stinky on you. I do love the results, though. Might consider not racking to a secondary container, as it can still foam a lot even below an SG of 1.010. In my secondary, I couldn't keep foam out of the air lock, so I run a hose from the top of the bung down into a jug of kmeta solution.


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## Midwest Vintner (Nov 7, 2010)

update:

we now have 5 wines in the making. 1 more will go in soon. should start with 6-7 wines available, hopefully.

one really big thing, we might be offering shipping within Missouri. Not sure about that yet. 3 concerns, will there be enough of a market to justify the hassle, how to implement the order taking/shipping and do we have enough wine to sell! the good thing about shipping is there won't be tasting losses, so shipping can be offset some. will research and report back as soon as I know for sure. i'm not sure when that will be as of yet.


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## countrygirl (Nov 7, 2010)

can't wait to come visit hermann! i'm planning on another trip to farmington area in the fall to get more grapes from st. francois. may try to plan a longer trip and see u guys, too!


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## winemaker_3352 (Nov 7, 2010)

countrygirl said:


> can't wait to come visit hermann! i'm planning on another trip to farmington area in the fall to get more grapes from st. francois. may try to plan a longer trip and see u guys, too!



When are you coming to farmington and what are you getting?


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## countrygirl (Nov 8, 2010)

winemaker_3352 said:


> When are you coming to farmington and what are you getting?



hoping to have the proper equipment for next year's crop! if i am successful in this, i will get a couple hundred pounds! i have loved the chardonel and it is clearing beautifully, so i know i'll get more chardonel! what else did u get this year?


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## winemaker_3352 (Nov 8, 2010)

countrygirl said:


> hoping to have the proper equipment for next year's crop! if i am successful in this, i will get a couple hundred pounds! i have loved the chardonel and it is clearing beautifully, so i know i'll get more chardonel! what else did u get this year?



I just have the Seyval and Chardonel - cold stabilizing them now. So far they are both turned out wonderful.

I would like to get the Vidal - but he sells out of those.

Next year i will double my batches. 500#'s of chardonel and 300#'s of seyval.

FYI - St. Francois Winery offers their press and crusher.


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## Catfish (Nov 8, 2010)

This is a great thread. We can't wait to make it down there and try your finished product.


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## Ron22 (Jan 9, 2011)

Nice information. Keep us informered on you status.
I work in the St Louis area I guess there is a new winery my wife and I will have to stop at when you are open.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jan 28, 2011)

another update.

We have issues with our tasting room which is going to cost us, but it means no portable bathrooms. We are now going to have indoor bathrooms!

We have a few more kinks, that should be worked out in the next month. I'm praying it goes well and then I will report back. Also, at that point, I will put up our opening wine selection. 

Labels have been sent in for federal approval. Wish i could have made them more artistic, but my parents are old school farmers. I just wanted to showcase some of my computer graphics background, but atleast making it was easy!

So, hopefully i will be able to do all this by the end of feb. still aiming for an opening in September. it's going to be tough. We are up to ~1700 gallons in bulk storage! Most wine I've ever made in a year! lol


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## winemaker_3352 (Jan 28, 2011)

Nice!! I know you are busy - but when you get some time - post some pics!!


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## AlFulchino (Jan 28, 2011)

monitor your TTB COLA page...999 times out of a thousand you get an email back after you have submitted it saying it needs correction or its been approved...but once in a blue moon after you have submitted your label you may not hear back via email.....so go log in and see its status.....this will insure that you dont lose any unnecessary time getting final approval....you can also call them if you have any trouble understanding why a label did not get approved...they are extremely helpful

also, if you didnt already do so......... you have wine now make sure you submitted the yr end gallonage sheet, it was due the 15th or 16th of january....it puts you on their map....essentially its a gallonage and bottle ledger sheet so the TTB can track your history


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## Midwest Vintner (Jan 30, 2011)

oh yes, my father was under the impression we had to fill the sheets out monthly. so after the third month they called and asked if we were going to make X gal (not sure of the number, but something like 50,000 to 100,000+ gallons) of wine during the year. my dad laughed and said we won't ever make that much! so we filed monthly for the last two months in order to finish '10 and now will do them yearly. i swear we've been in touch with someone in the loop of getting this thing going daily. many days, multiple times a day. i'm glad my dad is jobless or one of us would have had to quit at this point to just keep up the progress!

thanks for the tip on the cola's! will do asap in the morning!

we had to buy a gas heater for the winery because of the weather. hope the power stays ON!

Al>lovin your sig, "I got my vino at Fulchino's" lol. it's catchy.

i think my biggest fear now is the wine won't be ready! i mean, i'm a stickler for excellence and i hope to not disappoint anyone who is going to travel any distance to visit! i'm excited to get this open, but we have to make sure we have good, properly aged wine. so i wouldn't mark any dates on a calender yet.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 31, 2011)

"i think my biggest fear now is the wine won't be ready!"

same here...but that is EVERY year you will feel this...then one day you will walk in do a tasting for yourself and the aroma / nose will arrive....and then one day the flavor profile will be there...you will taste a second and third time because you cant believe it and then let others taste...and then surprise surprise...you will be selling it!

PS...by a generator....its not just the winter need for heat...in the summer the humidity will wreak havoc w your bottles and labels


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## grapeman (Jan 31, 2011)

Here's hoping the power stays on for you and everyone else. Stay warm.


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## wvbrewer (Jan 31, 2011)

Good luck with everything, I am sure you will make some quaity wines. Are you going to ship them out of state? It would give us all a chance to try them.

Dave


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## Midwest Vintner (Feb 1, 2011)

we are not planning on shipping out of state at this point. some states have a transferrable type license. meaning one from another state will work. others, like CA, you have to buy their specific shipping license. gets pricey and we aren't very big.

al> we just did buy one two days ago. can't risk losing power in there!!! 

thanks guys for the nice comments. 

what's your guys's and gals take on filtering? me, i like to wait for clearing, but we don't have time and i don't think aging in the tanks we have is a good call. not going into specifics, but we are doing a two stage type. a very, very pourous stage and then a final filtering. even in final filtering, not a super fine filter will be used. i've only filter wines a few times, ever! lol. should be interesting. got our setup yesterday and going to use it since i can't go to work tonight! i'm snowed in for sure!


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## AlFulchino (Feb 1, 2011)

you can look at VinoShipper.com to act as company to use to sell your wine in several states....in essence they hold the licenses for a bunch of states....the customer goes to their website per your instructions and when the purchase is made, you are notified...then you ship to the client....in the end what is happening is you are selling wholesale to Vino Shipper and they take about 20%

as to filtering...i do not filter any of my reds....never have...last year i only filtered two of the 4 whites that i released.....but would not hesitate to filter a white or an wine that needed to be sterile filtered


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## countrygirl (Feb 1, 2011)

hey, midwest, keep us updated on your weather status...we're hoping you're staying safe, and, after the ice storm  we had here in ky 2 yr. ago, i'm VERY glad to see you got a generator!!!


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## Wade E (Feb 1, 2011)

As the years go by here Im finding myself wanting to filter more and more. Ive aged many wines well over a year and have still had them drop out sediment in the bottle. Some were more color then sediment and I would bt a paycheck on it that even a rough filter would have eliminated that.


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## Midwest Vintner (Feb 3, 2011)

wade>yeah, that's kind of what we are trying to avoid. with not a long time in a secondary>bottle, we are pushing it slightly, to open. not being too fast getting it into the bottle, but faster than we are used to. typically, we never filter and just wait for it to settle. now, with limited tanks, we don't really have that ability.

country girl> thanks for your concern. we missed the 5" of sleet STL got (they got some snow too, but not as much), but we did get about 10-11" of snow. i missed my first day of work since i started in april of last year. turns out after calling in, they called everyone else and told them just to stay home! lol. 

i'm beat after shoveling for 2 1/2 hours so i could get to work tonight. didn't get any wine racked yesterday


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## countrygirl (Feb 3, 2011)

Midwest Vintner said:


> wade>yeah, that's kind of what we are trying to avoid. with not a long time in a secondary>bottle, we are pushing it slightly, to open. not being too fast getting it into the bottle, but faster than we are used to. typically, we never filter and just wait for it to settle. now, with limited tanks, we don't really have that ability.
> 
> country girl> thanks for your concern. we missed the 5" of sleet STL got (they got some snow too, but not as much), but we did get about 10-11" of snow. i missed my first day of work since i started in april of last year. turns out after calling in, they called everyone else and told them just to stay home! lol.
> 
> i'm beat after shoveling for 2 1/2 hours so i could get to work tonight. didn't get any wine racked yesterday



thank goodness u missed the ice/sleet and didn't have any major problems!


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 12, 2011)

just an update. we have cut most of the red tape for now and moving along with building the tasting room. the building has been set back due to the ground being so wet. we are hoping for july, but in reality, it might be september. we just have so much work to do. the wine is coming along nicely though and should be ready. might get some more aging, which is not a bad thing! lol.

i'm would post pics of something, but there's not much going on. we are doing lots of landscaping as my parents are ex-farmers and both really big on plants of all sorts. i'm not so good with live ones. lol. 

this is just one orchid






we've done alot since this pic, but it's another example of how they like plants. i do, just can keep them alive too well.


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## Wade E (Mar 12, 2011)

Looks wonderful. We do want some shots now of the winery so we can see the improvements later!!!!


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## AlFulchino (Mar 12, 2011)

agreed...keep us posted

and you folks are that green already!!! wow...just not fair!


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 14, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> agreed...keep us posted
> 
> and you folks are that green already!!! wow...just not fair!



nope, right now it's cold and snowing. this was last spring. there have been many changes since these pics. the production building is still about the same as in the pics i posted up a while back, but now with wine in the tanks. lol the property is going to change alot, so i take it you are wanting to see what we are doing as it goes?


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## winemaker_3352 (Mar 14, 2011)

Yeah - think MO got a little snow surprise this morning. Not sure what the Herman area got - but Lake St. Louis area had about 5".


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## Wade E (Mar 14, 2011)

Yep, step by step somewhat. theres nothing better then progress!


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 15, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Yep, step by step somewhat. theres nothing better then progress!



true. ok. will take some pics when i get a chance.

we had about the same here winemaker.


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 21, 2011)

just an update. going to show what we are doing with the property. unfortunately, we have to cut alot of trees. many are elm's that have become diseased (dutch elm disease, probably). we had 2 trees go from really healthy to have lots of dead limbs and some limbs not putting out leaves. the big one here was going to stay until it lost its leaves on some limbs early and it's right next to the seating area. wanted it for shade, but it was going to die.









^the pad will be our seating area outside. we are also going to have a small patio off the front of the tasting room. all on concrete, so no mud/dirt to walk on.


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 21, 2011)

here is another tree, a maple tree, that had been topped. it had some dead limbs and was near the driveway. not a good thing.






we are planting trees, too. we have a black gum, ginko, 4 pear trees, 4 cherry trees and a red maple.


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## grapeman (Mar 21, 2011)

We lost almost all the elm trees here 30 years ago. You drive down elm street now and there are no trees........

I need to get my patio area built soon in front of the tasting room. The dirt really does get tracked in, especially when it rains, etc.

A shame you needed to cut the trees. They would have been great near the buildings for shade.


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## Midwest Vintner (Mar 21, 2011)

it's ok. the maple, ginko and black gum are 4-5 yr old trees already. about 8-11 ft tall right now. hope they grow quick! lol. the big elm though was in a good spot for shade in the seating area. might have to put umbrella's at the table. lol


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## Midwest Vintner (Apr 9, 2011)

grape trellis. still have to tension the lines. excuse the blurring pic and my dog. 






climbing rose trellis





blooming weeping cherry





clearing up old road for diagonal parking. the tasting room will be between the small ginko (foreground) and the sycamore (background).





i hate to cut trees, but it was necessary. going to replant some smaller blooming ones when the building and parking is done.


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## Midwest Vintner (Apr 9, 2011)

if you look at my last set of pics before these ^, you can see all the trees in the background of the large tree we cut down.

more pics to come later. building should start, hopefully soon!


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## Runningwolf (Apr 9, 2011)

Nice pictures and very exciting. Thanks for sharing.


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## Midwest Vintner (May 1, 2011)

this is showing the new foundation and the parking lot will be angled in this ditch. having drains ran and lots of rock in the ditch soon.




they made a make shift road to dump rock in the foundation. going to run the plumbing tomorrow and pour this week!




showing how muddy the ground is. concrete truck got stuck, a 4wd ford work truck got stuck AND the gravel truck almost got stuck. thank god for vehicles with tracks!!!





Tasting room is 24 x 20. Storage will be the same (minus bathrooms) as we are splitting a 24x40 building into 2. Not big, but we are trying to do more quality wines for a good price (thinking $10-14 and FREE tasting) and don't care if we sell out. Plain and simple. We want to keep it small and have a nice place for people to come and relax.


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## Runningwolf (May 1, 2011)

Very cool. How exciting having the foundation in and knowing the building it going up.


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## Wade E (May 1, 2011)

Looking good there!! What will be the square footage?


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## grapeman (May 2, 2011)

It bet it feels great to see this finally happening after all the hard work. Still lots of work to go, but you are on the way. Thanks for sharing.


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## winemaker_3352 (May 2, 2011)

Very nice!!! Keep it up. I will have to make a stop by when you are open. I am about an 1 hour and 15 min away!!


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## Midwest Vintner (May 9, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Looking good there!! What will be the square footage?



the building is 24 x 40 = 960 sq ft, but the tasting room is only 24 x 20 = 480 sq ft. not huge, but we should be able to have well over 20 people inside (maybe 30?). The bar is U shaped and will be 8 ft x 7 ft x 8 ft making it easy for 2 people to serve. I think with allowing 24" for each person at the bar, that means approximately 11 people can be tasting at a time. Now I know it might be tight, but I've been to Stone Hill Winery and have seen people slip in from behind (in a group) and taste too. So, maybe ~15 people can do tasting at a time. We probably will only have 1 person through the week and 2 on weekends doing tastings. The outside, covered patio should have 2 tables with four seats (if we can fit them) and the outside seating area (concrete) should be able to sit ~40 or more. 

Tasting room piping has been laid and the floor poured!!!!!! Construction of the building should be soon.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 5, 2011)

Just an update....

working on my primera printer now and should have my first labels tonight!!!! they are for a mead we have made and not for commercial purposes. Gotta get the bugs out now. lol. That said, we are now aiming for Aug. 1st opening. We are very close now and building should be done withing a week or two, weather permitting. We are going to finish it on the inside ourselves, but it shouldn't be too bad. Hopefully. lol. I will post up more pics in the next month or so.


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## grapeman (Jun 5, 2011)

Good luck with all of it. I hope your opening is well attended. It is taking a while to get people out over here. They all have been holding off for good weather to come. Daily traffic is up, but I would like to see it a lot higher.


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## Wade E (Jun 5, 2011)

As Rich said I hope the turnout is good for you and we cant wait to see some updated pics!


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## AlFulchino (Jun 5, 2011)

good luck...looking forward to the pics!....and how the primera printer works...we got the primera 1362 front/back labeller and love it


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## Dougxox (Jun 7, 2011)

Any thing closer on an opening date? would love to be there for the grand opening! I'm about 2.5 hrs away...


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## Stefani (Jun 7, 2011)

Question: My local Winery the Cannon River Winery in Cannon Falls Minnesota allows people to come in for tastings and buy as well as see the equipment. -- Would you be offering any tours?


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 8, 2011)

Stefani said:


> Question: My local Winery the Cannon River Winery in Cannon Falls Minnesota allows people to come in for tastings and buy as well as see the equipment. -- Would you be offering any tours?



I'm not sure. I think, under our license, we can have visitors as long as we are present. I will have to check. I'm not sure there is much to show. lol. We did get a new bottle filler in, but beyond that, I think I've pictured it all. I would be willing, but I'm not sure if my father can/will do it. I will not be the primary oversight on the property. I would imagine it can be arranged, if it is totally legal though, through this site, as I cannot see why it would be a problem.

I appreciate all the kind wishes. This forum has a good community. I hope we do well myself! 

We don't even have a building as of now for a tasting room, so I can't pinpoint a date. I will try to let people here know, ASAP. I do not have a website yet, as I've been waiting for better media to display (construction doesn't make for good pics) nor when we might be open. We have had so many set backs and delays it's ridiculous. The gov't is super slow and getting ANYTHING done requires many different agencies and steps/regulations. We are making sure to cross our "t"s and dot our "i"s.

My last round of labels has been in "recieved" for over 2 full weeks. The first round took about 8 days total.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 24, 2011)

UPDATE:

We are aiming now for early September, but we might have a setback. Which is becoming the norm. I know of 1 at least possibly atm, and the gov't says they want jobs and are pro-business? lol. So realistically, maybe October? I hope we can get this done sooner!!!

Some progress...


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## JohnT (Jun 24, 2011)

Lots of luck to you. 

It seems to me that the best quality a person can have (for this) is patience. 

Just think of this as paying the price for living the dream. 

I had looked into starting a comercial winery in New Jersey. The cost and the amount of red tape (at the state level) are far too prohibitive! 

johnT.


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## Runningwolf (Jun 24, 2011)

Good luck to you, Looking good!


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 14, 2011)

JohnT said:


> Lots of luck to you.
> 
> It seems to me that the best quality a person can have (for this) is patience.
> 
> ...



Yes, you have to be persistent and determined. I swear the gov't doesn't want you to open one. We have had blockages at every point! Not much left, but really the gov't is extremely abrasive in this process. They must be really dumb considering we pay taxes when we go to bottle AND sales tax when we sell wine. They are only getting licenses fees now, which will be nothing to the excise tax. Doesn't make any sense for them to be slow, unhelpful and generally not very nice. There have been a few agencies that have been what I expected, but many are far WORSE! When you have the ttb, atf, health department, dnr, fbi, federal, state and local governments all having some role in green lighting your business, it's no fun for sure.

We have racked up a serious bill doing this. We projected something like 120k at the lowend to 150k on the highend or so. We are over 150k invested thus far! We are very close now to just finishing up, though. Building is 7/8ths done, but missing some key materials that are "on order." We are not happy at this point with the builder due to these set backs and that they keep saying it will restart this day. The day comes and goes..... 

There is only one hurtle I know of, so we are getting really close. Still, no dates as we just don't know when things are going to get done, then we have some stuff to do after that. 

All that said, we have sweetened some of the wine and have all the bottles, etc. Bottling should be very soon.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 25, 2011)

Building outside and roughed in electrical is done. We are doing the finishing work ourselves to save money (more fun! lol). We are awaiting state approval of labels, so that we can bottle. I'm not sure why the state is taking so long because the TTB has already approved the labels. More bureaucracy. Getting there, but still plenty to do!


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## Runningwolf (Jul 25, 2011)

We need some pictures now that the walls and roof are on


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## Dougxox (Jul 25, 2011)

Midwest Vintner said:


> Building outside and roughed in electrical is done. We are doing the finishing work ourselves to save money (more fun! lol). We are awaiting state approval of labels, so that we can bottle. I'm not sure why the state is taking so long because the TTB has already approved the labels. More bureaucracy. Getting there, but still plenty to do!



They don't have anybody left, most of liquor controll was let go and law enforecment duties were sent to the SHP and local authorties to enforce laws. In the end of May everyone left was processing liquor licence renewals. A winery near me sent in about 10 labels a few years ago, all with the same photo on them, only difference was the wine name, they accepted 7 and rejected 3. They sent in the same three and got approved the second time, no changes.


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## grapeman (Jul 25, 2011)

I had sent in a label a few months ago and it took 6 weeks for them to act on it. It was rejected for corrections. They wanted a comma added in the warning statement. I had copied and pasted the statement from their own demo label, so if it needed a comma, so did their own label. I had seven labels approved befroe that without the comma. I once had a guy tell me he wanted a better description of the wine on the bottle. They are very fickle.


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## Mike93YJ (Jul 25, 2011)

Is your winery going to participate in the winery passport program that MissouriWine.org puts on? We are planning on taking some trips soon to get our passports stamped when we visit wineries. I have no idea if the program costs the wineries that are in it or not, but it could be a way to get visitors to come by your place.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 26, 2011)

Mike, I have not looked into that yet. Will do. I'm glad ya'll on here are giving me some information. I just don't have time to contact everyone and look for stuff. Soooo busy right now. On top of the winery, I'm working a night job, which includes overtime on Saturdays some weeks. My dad just isn't capable of getting too much done because he has had back surgury 16 months ago and had knee surgery 2 months ago. We are getting closer though.

Grapeman> I know what you mean. I had a few labels that were identicle as far as format, but the first ones passed and then the second ones "needed corrections?" Huh?

I REALLY hope it doesn't take too long to get the labels approved because we are wanting to bottle next week! Labels have been out for 3 weeks or more and are already approved by the ttb.

I will try to take some pics soon. Today is stain the concrete day....


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## Midwest Vintner (Jul 31, 2011)

State approved the labels. ON TO BOTTLING!!!!! 

We have alot to do still, but it's coming along. The floors are stained. Didn't work as good as I'd like (maybe we messed up mixing or something). It looks much better wet and that's what the directions said it would look like. Dunno why it's not like that. Very hard to see what it looks like from the pics. There isn't any lights inside, except what we use for building. Will get better pics when I have more time and we get more done!









Still working on the bar for the tasting room. Outside Dimensions 8' x 8' x 8' with 24" countertops.


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 14, 2011)

Update.

Just bottled for the first time, but our filling maching pump died (accident, F!). Gotta get a new one or fix it ASAP!!!!!!!!!!

the crew was beat when we started. All of us have jobs (minus my dad holding the bottle, but he was putting up panels the day before from 8 am to 11 pm!)




Our filler was working overtime, till we ran out of wine and it ran dry for a minute. The pump is supposed to always have fluid and it overheated I think. Worked after for a bit and then just stopped. 




We've been working double time to get the tasting room done AND get bottling done. Looks like we might have a snag with the bottler on hold.


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 14, 2011)

The tasting room from the production building 




A look from the drive up to the tasting room. It will be a one way entrance with an exit in front or our old barn (needs some work too!)


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 14, 2011)

We still have alot of work to do. Mostly now on the landscaping, parking, drive, trim/paint/accessories/ etc in the tasting room and to bottle. Stuff is getting done as fast as we can. 

THIS IS ALL JUST A ROUGH VIEW. It will shape up.


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## grapeman (Aug 14, 2011)

It all looks great! Before you know it you will be in business and selling wine. It has been a lot of work this summer getting folks out to try the wine and buy it. I am out in the boonies and hidden from view so it is hard to get folks to know we are there. Hopefully you are very visible from the road. I have been doing 5 farmers markets a week to promote the wine and it is working. Yesterday we had the first day of our Summer Wine Tour of area wineries and it began very strong. The whole family pitched in along with a friend and we managed OK. We had a couple hundred tasters and sold a lot of wine.

Best of luck to you and your family.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 14, 2011)

WV those pictures are totally awesome and its nice to see all the hard work you put into in. The picture of the crew, is that you on the left?

Another question from the earlier picture when you were talking about the stain. Is that a concrete stain you are talking about on the front porch? Did it happen to be a Bher concrete stain. I used that product on my patio and was a transparent stain. It did not end up like the picture the product is unbelievable. Four years later it still looks as good as the day I put it down.


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## Wade E (Aug 14, 2011)

Looking awesome over there! Congrats also to Rich on a great day.


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## jtstar (Aug 14, 2011)

Your winery already looks great you and Grapeman are doing every winemakers dream


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## Redtrk (Aug 14, 2011)

That's looking really good. I see another road trip in my future.


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## Dougxox (Aug 14, 2011)

Mike93YJ said:


> Is your winery going to participate in the winery passport program that MissouriWine.org puts on? We are planning on taking some trips soon to get our passports stamped when we visit wineries. I have no idea if the program costs the wineries that are in it or not, but it could be a way to get visitors to come by your place.



Wife and I just hit a bunch of winerys, up to 20 stamps. We started in March when they first came out. Need to hit the Hermann area for more stamps

With all the winerys in the area, could you beg, borrow or steal a pump???lol

Hope to see you soon.


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 14, 2011)

runningwolf>Not me in the pic. I took the pic. lol. I do have a pic of me in the "heres me" thread. The stain worked great, except it was supposed to have the look of "when it was wet." The sheen isn't glossy at all, so the floor looks more like dull redrock than a polished rock. That's the best way I can describe it. Looks better wet, IMO, but we couldn't figure out how to make it that way. The sealer did spot on us some too. Overall, it wasn't too hard, and looks ok. I'm more concerned with putting out the best product I can. I am not totally happy with all the wines, but I don't think I'll ever be either. 

Grapeman>Glad to hear you did well. With all your knowledge, I'd expect the wine to be good and that should then help sell more of it! We are less than 1/2 mile from the largest road into Hermann (highway 19), so I think that should help. The road to our very short lane, is also a highway, so no backwoods driving. This is why we picked this location as it had the most easy access, yet still out in the country. The downside is that we don't have alot of land to do much with (3.75 acres). Further, we are only 8 miles from interstate 70 and between 70 and Hermann (19 goes from 70 south to Hermann). We are about 7 miles north of Hermann.

JTSTAR> I fantasize about getting some time to actually relax! Should be soon enough though. 

Doug>might want to make your trip in October. October fest is big and it's every weekend in October, so you can decide which. We are hoping to be open before then.  We've visited other wineries quite a few times, but I doubt they are too happy to have another winery out there. IMO, we are different enough that many will come for our wine and then visit Hermann (we are out of town, even though we have a hermann address). Some might come here and not like the non-grape wines? Idk why, but some just don't think it is a wine if it's not a grape. A co-worker, apparently a home wine maker and avid winery goer, thinks we need to incorporate other wineries wines at our tasting room to please those people. I dunno if I like that idea.


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## roblloyd (Aug 15, 2011)

Do you guys have Groupon in your area? My local winery (Chamard in Clinton CT) just did a groupon a couple weeks ago. $20 for 2 to a tasting with a Reidel glass to keep. They sold over 7,000 of them.
They also have local musicians on weekend for music, some free, some a small cover. 
Might be worth checking out to get the names out there and make some


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## Dougxox (Aug 16, 2011)

MO liquor controll laws prohibit the use of coupons or any other types of "enticement" to promote alchol. Only normal advertising is permited. Its a pain in the butt, I run a liquor store and have to put up with it all the time.


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## roblloyd (Aug 16, 2011)

Dougxox said:


> MO liquor controll laws prohibit the use of coupons or any other types of "enticement" to promote alchol. Only normal advertising is permited. Its a pain in the butt, I run a liquor store and have to put up with it all the time.



$10 glassware sale. Slightly used


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 16, 2011)

As far as tours, IDK if we can unless we have both me and my father on hand. That way we have someone to watch the tasting room and the other can give the tour. It might have to be setup. Although, I'm not going to lie, there's really not much to see. Our winery is in a 30 x 30 building. LOL.


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## Dougxox (Aug 17, 2011)

roblloyd said:


> $10 glassware sale. Slightly used



That would work


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## Daisy317 (Aug 19, 2011)

Did you hire a lawyer to help you throught the paperwork process or did you do it yourself?


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 20, 2011)

Daisy317 said:


> Did you hire a lawyer to help you throught the paperwork process or did you do it yourself?



I know a lawyer and she had an experienced co-worker go over it for us. So, yes and no. 

I would recommend a lawyer for something like this. It's nice having a HUGE family. We have more than a couple lawyers, etc. I have over 40 cousins. LOL.


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 24, 2011)

Electric stuff all done. Plumbing very soon. All that is left in the tasting room is trim and finishing the bar up. Pics soon.


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## ibglowin (Aug 24, 2011)

WTF does that mean !?!?!?



Woodbee said:


> Glad to see that you guys got more nuts a cookin. I hope they are all MO pecans and not those snooty NM ones.
> Brad


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 25, 2011)

ibglowin said:


> WTF does that mean !?!?!?



We make pecan wine.


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## ibglowin (Aug 25, 2011)

I meant what did Woodbee mean by "snooty NM ones"........


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## Midwest Vintner (Aug 25, 2011)

Lights done, plumbing very close.





The lights my mom picked out for the tasting room seem way too small. They just don't look right with 10 ft ceilings! lol


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 5, 2011)

Update... OPENING SEPTEMBER 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have all the trim up and the doors for the bathrooms. Bar is sanded and has a coat of urethane on it. Getting there fast!

I know what you are thinking and Yes I am wearing shorts. ROFL!  Had to hold the dog as he seems to think the camera is a toy.


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## Flem (Sep 5, 2011)

That's wonderful. Good luck on the grand opening.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 5, 2011)

Awesome, good luck to you and your family. Keep the pictures coming.


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## jtstar (Sep 5, 2011)

good luck on your grand opening


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 6, 2011)

Thank you guys for the support. More pics to follow, along with a website!


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## grapeman (Sep 6, 2011)

Almost there! Good luck, and yes, get some pants on boy!


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 6, 2011)

LOL at grapeman

Just a basic site for now. I don't have time to do much editing and what not. I will add pics here and there as we have them. Just not much to look at with it all dusty and the ground mostly dirt. Excavating going on this week and concrete/parking right after. This year, it won't be near as nice as next year as far as plants go. Just got it done too late to plant anything around it.

http://www.endlesssummerwinery.com/


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## tonyt (Sep 6, 2011)

Really nice. I can only imagine how delicious the Pecan Wine must be. Too bad you're over 600 miles away.


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 12, 2011)

tonyt said:


> Really nice. I can only imagine how delicious the Pecan Wine must be. Too bad you're over 600 miles away.



We might be looking into shipping. We won't know till maybe this spring though. Stay tuned!

We are now on Facebook!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Endless-Summer-Winery/159134814170371


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## tjbryner (Sep 15, 2011)

Thank you Midwest Vintner for this post, Ive been thinking about doing a winery for sometime and I've contacted my state office ( got all the paperwork) and the Fed govt stuff.

Hope all goes well for you!

Thanks again for the great info. 

TJBryner


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 16, 2011)

tjbryner said:


> Thank you Midwest Vintner for this post, Ive been thinking about doing a winery for sometime and I've contacted my state office ( got all the paperwork) and the Fed govt stuff.
> 
> Hope all goes well for you!
> 
> ...



No problem. I hope you get through it unscathed and have FUN!  Please keep us updated.

The key things that can really bite you.
-Zoning
-Sewer
-Water
-Plumbing
-Electrical

All of those must be separate and basically restaurant style. You will have to change things if they are not! Also, beware false info. We got bad info on numerous occasions. The TTB and ATF were very straight forward (gotta have a clean record though). Make sure you have anything said to you, in writing from ANY official. Double check everything and you should be good to go. Oh, and plan to spend much more than you anticipated.

The way to make a small fortune in the wine business is to start with a large one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not doing this to get rich. I have put over 4 years up to this point researching, looking for loans and working 2 jobs. It's not easy, but if we even do OK, then I'll be more than happy!


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## tjbryner (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks for the Key issues, I'm lucky I think??? I have someone that owns a winery close to hear (20 Miles away) and he's been very helpful with information. So far my big issue is I'm in a dry township, It'll go up for a vote this fall . Hoping for the best!!

But I'm still going to buy the equipment as if everything is good to go that way I'm head off the game, I can always look at a new location!


Also How many Gallons are you planning on doing the 1st year? 

TJBryner


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## Midwest Vintner (Sep 16, 2011)

tjbryner said:


> Thanks for the Key issues, I'm lucky I think??? I have someone that owns a winery close to hear (20 Miles away) and he's been very helpful with information. So far my big issue is I'm in a dry township, It'll go up for a vote this fall . Hoping for the best!!
> 
> But I'm still going to buy the equipment as if everything is good to go that way I'm head off the game, I can always look at a new location!
> 
> ...



Well, It's good you are getting first hand knowledge in your area because it can be different because of state laws. I would be looking at new locations now, if you have time, in order to be ready for both situations. I hope you have a good place to store the equipment because it can take 4-6 months or so to just get the licensing through. It's nice that we were able to build what we wanted, but it's more expensive. If you could buy a winery already built and ready to go, then that would streamline the whole process.

We are going to make in the ball park of 2,500 gal or maybe more the first year. We do not plan on selling it all, but it's better after 2 years anyhow.  We started with about 1700 gallons, but will make more and bottle it (hopefully) before next summer.

Good luck!!!!!!


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## pwrose (Oct 9, 2011)

I know you are probably busy being that you just opened, but I have a $ question for ya.
How much not counting land purchase have you invested in getting things started?
Even including the oops I forgot about that and had to add it things.


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## tjbryner (Nov 1, 2011)

Well here's the update.
Every thing was set to go in motion this week, However my township is dry...(No bars, clubs, winery, ETC) I have to wait till the spring of 2013 for a primary election to do a referendum and have the public vote on it. 

So for now my options are
1. put every thing on hold
2. Look for another location
3. get the state LLC setup, federal license, and my bound then wait till 2013 and see if it is approved.

If I go with option 3. and it does not go thought I can do an addendum to my Federal license for a new location with only a few headaches. More then likely as it stands I'm doing option 2 and 3. 

I will say that this thread has been VERY helpful and again Many thanks!


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## grapeman (Nov 1, 2011)

You might find it even more useful if you start your own thread rather than adding it onto Midwest Vintners. People could find it easier that way and probably you could also. You probably would find it beneficial in the future to move it to a town where it is allowed. It is hard doing business where it is not wanted.


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## chris889671 (Jan 7, 2012)

I have a question on waste. what requirements are there on disposing of waste water/chemicals and grape waste?


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## Runningwolf (Jan 7, 2012)

I don't believe there would be any. Most chemicals are pretty well diluted down by the time we send them down the drain.

On a commercial operation if you are near a stream I would think you would have to have everything drain to a holding tank and then hauled away. Grape skins are spread back into the vineyard.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jan 8, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> I don't believe there would be any. Most chemicals are pretty well diluted down by the time we send them down the drain.
> 
> On a commercial operation if you are near a stream I would think you would have to have everything drain to a holding tank and then hauled away. Grape skins are spread back into the vineyard.



The water is considered somewhat hazardous. You have to have an advanced septic system or be connected to city waste. We have found out that the first health dept guy approved a holding tank, but then he quit and the next person was "in training" with a state environmentalist guy whom said a holding tank isn't right. We were lucky ours was approved as it was already in! You can compost your waste. Otherwise, *I think*, you need a permit to have it picked up and dumped.

We do have a river on our property. So, keeping ANY wine/waste away from it is mandatory and a priority. This is why we wanted the holding tank, but for some reason the new health dept person (with the environmental guy) would not allow it. This is why we had to go with an advanced septic system for the tasting room.


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## tatd69 (Jul 1, 2014)

Wow great information and pictures to show your progress. It is inspiring to the novice with dreams! 
It is the best post I have read!


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Midwest Vintner (Oct 22, 2014)

We now ship withing Missouri! It's been awhile since I've been on, but we are growing. Last year we increased significantly and this year it is more marginal. It keeps us very busy! W

We will be coming out with habanero wine (2015), which is hotter, yet somewhat lemon flavor on the front. Going to be perfect for a marinade! After that sometime either in October next year or 2016, we will have Elderberry wine. We've made it many times before. It is good, but it needs aging to shine. 

www.endlesssummerwinery.com

Thanks for all the kind words!!! 

Mark


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