# Critical look at each other's wine



## NorCal (Jan 9, 2016)

My winemaking buddy (4Score) and I detect some faults in our wine that we made this season. We have decided to taste each other's wines this morning and critique it. The goal is to get an independent look at each other's wine to determine if any intervention is necessary. This is our second vintage together; we get the grapes, crush, ferment, press together, then we split the wine and it goes to our own garage wineries. We did 3 tons together this season; Zin, Mourvèdre, Barbera from three local vineyards.

Since this is such a fun forum and I know that 4Score will be game, I'm going to propose to him that we document the findings, raw, honest, good or bad on this thread. Doing so will also open the discussion to possible "what to do" to remedy what we have detected in our own wine.


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## Floandgary (Jan 9, 2016)

Interesting proposition! That since most posts here advocate ones own taste as the guide to making the perfect wine! But human nature being what it is, there is always the desire/need to please. Thus the outreach for other opinions and even the occasional critique. The only requirement is that one be ready to accept what one hears as no more than (hopefully) honest/constructive analysis.


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## NorCal (Jan 9, 2016)

Pictures first. 4Score at the NorCal winery. I built this "wine box" in my garage for the aging/storage of wine.


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## NorCal (Jan 9, 2016)

This is the Anderson Hills / 4Score winery. 4Score built a separate room in the garage. Nicely done and very cleanly executed.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 9, 2016)

It appears that the cheese and charcuterie follow you wherever you go!


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## ibglowin (Jan 9, 2016)

You guys both have great spaces. Have you thought of going in together and renting a larger space perhaps where you can spread out a bit more? Perhaps a climate controlled storage space of sorts?


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## NorCal (Jan 9, 2016)

4Score is an excellent winemaking partner. While I'm decent with the mechanics of winemaking, 4Score has a great palate and the ability to translate what he his smelling and tasting to the spoken/written word. We promised each other that we would be honest with our opinions with each other's wine.

Up first for 4Score was the Barbera. This is the wine he had concern about and I smelled his concern immediately. His Barbera is in a new 60 gallon American oak. The smell is earthy, musty, damp wood smelling, that blew off after ten min or so. We have no idea what is driving this (I have the same) and will save this for further discussion. The Barbera was fruity, hints of blueberry, strawberry and full of flavor, with a nice finish that really seemed to linger.

Next was a second year 8 gallon of the same Barbera. It was everything that the 60 gallon barrel was but none of the nose. This wine that was excellent, in every aspect. I really couldn't discern any difference in flavor between the 60 and the 8, just the smell.

The Mourvèdre is in a second year 30g American oak. Very nice floral smell, none of the earthiness that was prevalent in the Barbera. Strong tannins, good acid, tasted strawberry and it was full of flavor. Nothing wrong with this wine that I could see.

The Mourvèdre Rose was next and like mine it had a funk on the nose. Not super strong, not foul or rotten egg smelling, just an essence of funky wet towel that was wrapped up for too long smell. Taste was very citrusy, grapefruit taste that was bright and light.

Final was the Zin Rose, which had little to no nose. It was clean, crisp, clear. Not a lot of flavors, but a light citrusy pleasant wine.

Two things that need to be understood and or addressed in my opinion is the musty barrel smell in the 60g Barbera and the funkiness of the Mourvèdre Rose.


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## NorCal (Jan 9, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> You guys both have great spaces. Have you thought of going in together and renting a larger space perhaps where you can spread out a bit more? Perhaps a climate controlled storage space of sorts?



It is hard to beat the convenience of the garage and the only incremental expense is the addional electricity to power the air conditioning in the summer, which runs <$100 year.


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## 4score (Jan 9, 2016)

Okie Dokie....

Thanks Norcal!

We started at Norcal's K&K Winery. I was especially interested in trying his Zin from the new 60 gallon barrel. We purchased these barrels together so I was real curious if there would be a "funk" on the wine in this barrel (like my Barbera in my 60 g). The Zin grapes we sourced were not the best or up to our standards, but we took them anyway. Many clusters were combinations of raison and smallish berries. Although we attempted to sort before crush, I'm sure there was an impact. We got far from our anticipated juice volume, but we still went forward. Norcal planned this Zin for the big 60-gallon barrel so after extracting enough for our Rose project, we filled his barrel 1st. I've got about 15 gallons in carboys. The juice seemed pretty good so we proceeded. I was pleasantly surprised to find a pretty darn good Zin aging in his barrel! I also found NO funky smell, like my barrel. The nose was fairly neutral, not real fruity - in fact you had to hunt a little to find the nose. Let's say it had a faint fruit smell. In baseball terms, the taste was a single up the middle. It was refreshing and light, with no real traditional "spice" component as I would really like to find in a Zin. Visually, very light for a Zin. We picked at 23.5 brix so maybe that is supporting these traits. Definite red fruit, but light. I think the French would like this wine! I like it and I'm interested to se what several more months of new American oak will contribute along the way.

One note here.....chilly morning here when tasting. Probably just under 50 in Norcal's winery. These wines were probably mid to upper 50's and I assume some tightness and loss of true expression until they warm up. But, we had time constraints and had to move along with what we had.

Next, we moved on to a Barbera kept in a glass carboy. Bright and fruity, medium-dark color. Tasted slightly "yeasty" still as this is still very young, but it's easy to distill the direction this wine is going. NICE! Fruity - I get red fruit and nice acid balance.

On to the Mourvedre in a French 30-gallon (2nd year). This wine is amazing already. Somewhat big and bold from drawing out a sizable amount of juice for another Rose project. On the nose though, funky-town! Very earthy. Interestingly, a lot of this smell seemed to blow off after a while in the glass. There was no earthiness to the taste. It was fruity - strawberry especially. The French barrel is already giving it some "softness" in the tannins - even though the acid level gives the anticipated bite. I guess that's a soft bite!

The Barbera in the 30-gallon American oak (2nd season) was delicious. There was a slight funk to the nose but it seemed to blow off as it sat in the glass. Taste was really special. A balance between fruit and tart that danced on the palate. the American oak comes through when compared to a sample out of the carboy. So, both YOUR barbera in a 2nd season barrel and MY barbera in a new 60-gallon American barrel have this similar funk nose. Hard to figure that one out, as barbera in glass has no problem!

Zin Rose - smelled great - citrus smell galore - apple and pear elements (in smell and taste) for sure. Very crisp wine that really wakes up the mouth. Color was very light - maybe too light for what you're after I think.

Mourvedre Rose - Light fruit smell especially compared to the Zin Rose. A light funk smell that also appears to blow off with some time and swirling. Light taste but still crisp fruit. Not a big rose for sure. A very small back sweetening may benefit this wine by making it a bit more layered and interesting. It was nice and refreshing.

I feel better after doing this little exercise. I'm thinking my Barbera is really not a lost cause (the smell). As Norcal suggested, I bottled a little of the Barbera from my 60 g barrel. I'll open that bottle in a couple weeks to assess the nose and compare it to a fresh sample from the barrel. We suspect it will be fine. We also have a small amount of copper sulfate coming for just some smell experiments. It will be interesting to see if a little copper sulfate will take the funk out of the nose. That doesn't mean I would add copper to the wine, but it would at least help explain things.


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## Crispyvelo (Jan 10, 2016)

Can't wait to see how the copper sulfite test goes. We'll have to post tasting videos!


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## NorCal (Jan 11, 2016)

It has been suggested by a commercial winemaker that the barrel mustiness, wet wood, wet cardboard smell could be TCA (mold) in the barrel. Does anyone have experience with this?


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## ibglowin (Jan 11, 2016)

Was this a new or used barrel?


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## NorCal (Jan 12, 2016)

I have a real good network and I talked to a couple very respected winemakers today. One volunteered to come over and smell, taste the barrels. His conclusion was a mild case of H2S, which will "blow off" when racked before bottling.


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## NorCal (Jan 12, 2016)

He also didn't find a fault in the Mourvedre Rose. Rather, you are smelling the citrus in the varietal and that not everyone is going to like it, but he did.


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## grapeman (Jan 12, 2016)

It is often helpful to get a couple extra noses involved especially when they are experienced and finely tuned. I tend to ignore the ones with comments like "It smells good/bad" or "You know, this isn't bad." Networking definitely pays off.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 12, 2016)

NorCal said:


> I have a real good network and I talked to a couple very respected winemakers today. One volunteered to come over and smell, taste the barrels. His conclusion was a mild case of H2S, which will "blow off" when racked before bottling.



Any risk to just racking now to remove the H2S smell and putting it back into the barrel? I've read (and had a little experience with my 2013 Petite Sirah), that the longer you let that sit, the harder it is to remove.


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## NorCal (Jan 12, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Any risk to just racking now to remove the H2S smell and putting it back into the barrel? I've read (and had a little experience with my 2013 Petite Sirah), that the longer you let that sit, the harder it is to remove.



I've already racked twice since putting it in the barrel, so I guess the risk would be exposure. I've been accused of being "heavy handed" in my approach to winemaking; if it is broke, I want to fix it. I think I'm going to take his advice for now and "don't worry about it" and address it, if necessary, closer to bottling. I may also send a sample to a lab, just to confirm.


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## Floandgary (Jan 12, 2016)

Organized disorder!! I love it.... Storage units are right nice. General question tho,,, When storing/aging in the bottle, is it not recommended that bottles be horizontal to keep cork wet, or are you using synthetic corks which don't care??


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## Gussman (Jan 12, 2016)

*Awesome Wine*

Loved this post about your wine from the vine and NOT from a kit. Don't get me wrong, I do Kits, but I, 90% of the time, do fresh fruit and grapes. I am waiting patiently to see how the Copper addition affects the wine. I love your storage boxes and I'm considering making a couple for myself. I try to do 1500 to 2000 bottles a year so, I'll need a large storage box. 
Thank You for posting the pictures and information. Loved it.


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## 4score (Jan 12, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Was this a new or used barrel?



Mine is a new 60 gallon, Norcal has two 30 gallon barrels that exhibit this off-smell.


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## JohnT (Jan 13, 2016)

Would you consider bench trials and a small treatment of copper sulfate?


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## NorCal (Jan 13, 2016)

JohnT said:


> Would you consider bench trials and a small treatment of copper sulfate?



We have some in route to do just that. I would avoid using this unless there was no option, but it would also serve to confirm the problem.


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## ibglowin (Jan 13, 2016)

If it is H2S (and it sounds like it is) I can highly recommend Reduless. Saved me a couple of times in the last few years.


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## 4score (Jan 13, 2016)

I called one lab (Lodi Labs) and was told they did not have a formal chemical test for either TCA or H2S. They recommended that we bring a 100 ml sample to them and they would gladly perform a smell test. I guess they are highly trained and have the experience to accurately label the problem we are having. Subsequently, I think we are thinking it's mild H2S. The copper sulfate test should confirm that presumption.

So, what are some causes of H2S in a new barrel?


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## joeswine (Jan 13, 2016)

How did you do with the honest comments about the finished product.


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## 4score (Jan 13, 2016)

I did great with the comments I received from Norcal. I think it was spot on and confirmed what I was observing. For my Barbera, it came down to the nose and trying to identify if it was "off" (we both agree it was), what it was smelling like (we both agreed it was musty/funky and hiding the fruit nose). This led to trying to understand what it could be and a course of action to correct this batch as well as a course of action to prevent repeating this. We thought it may have been TCA from using chlorine water in the barrel prep, but we now think it's mild H2S. We will try to confirm this with some copper sulfate testing soon.


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## NorCal (Jan 13, 2016)

joeswine said:


> How did you do with the honest comments about the finished product.



I figure if I'm not open to negative feedback, it limits my ability to improve. I solicited feedback on my wine from no less than 4 very respected commercial winemakers on my first vintage. My Zin had faults, which most picked out (watered back, stuck fermentation). The cab franc received good feedback, but even if they say it's good, I ask them what are you getting that makes it good and what could be done to improve it? 

Airing my dirty laundry can be difficult, but it is a lot easier to handle than 60 gallons of bad wine.


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## joeswine (Jan 14, 2016)

*norcal*

*sometimes it is easier to correct a flaw while it's still In the works as apposed to when it's all said and done. I agree with you on that, nothing worse then having to dump wine no matter how much it is, it's the time and effort that's involved as well as cost an a certain amount of pride ,the best results come from blind wine tastings and people who are not just your friends. *


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## stickman (Jan 14, 2016)

There is a fairly good procedure for sulfide detection bench trials located at this link.
http://www.gusmerenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Sulfide-Detection-Kit-Instructions1.pdf

Maybe you indicated in another thread, but have these wines gone through ML and, if so, were they racked after ML? H2S is tricky and most of us would agree that nutrients are a major factor, and may be the main cause, as it is almost impossible to get the nutrient and vitamin level right without an initial analysis. The fact that you're having the issue in the barrel and not in carboy suggests volume may be contributing. Even though the barrel provides some oxygen, wines will be more reductive in larger volume containers, especially when oak is contributing tannins that are also oxygen reactive. 

I think during the first couple of months after fermentation it is best to get a red wine off of sediment if off odors are detected. Although some winemakers would say that a faint funk in a heavy red, that's going to age for two years in barrel, is not a problem as the compounds combine over time and provide interesting components to the finished wine.


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## NorCal (Jan 14, 2016)

Hey Stick, Ferm K was added at first sign of fermentation and the second 50% addition at 1/3 fermentation complete. The wine was pressed, settled for 24 hours, transferred to a barrel and mlf'd. Once mlf'd tested complete, it was racked, barrel cleaned and the SO2 was added. Barrel has been stored cold and topped, tested and additions made every 6 weeks. 
The seasoned winemaker that was kind enough to come over and smell the barrel, wine and give it a taste said not to worry about it, it will blow off, which has been my experience as previously noted. However, we will run some copper sulfate trials this weekend to confirm that this us what we are dealing with.


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## NorCal (Jan 18, 2016)

The cu test provided definitive results; night and day difference. Did a blind test with my wife, but I knew it wasn't necessary. I'm embarrassed that I have been living with / letting it go this long. I guess the good news is that the cu had such a profound benefit, it is a problem that can be fixed with the correct handling.

To make sure I understand what is going on; H2S was (most likely) a bi-product from the yeast during fermentation, which now exists as a compound in the wine. Left alone, it can form other compounds, which cannot be treated. CU will cause the H2S to precipitate out. 

So, H2S is not biological, where we have to kill something and would require the barrels to be treated, rather, these are compounds suspended in the wine that need to be removed. If done correctly and the treated wine put back into the rinsed barrel, the H2S is not something that will reappear, as there is not a source generating new H2S. Did I get this right?


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## grapeman (Jan 18, 2016)

As long as fermentation has completed (which it has) then you should not get any more forming in your barrel. I have to compliment you on your determination to get to the root of the problem and take steps to correct it without "shooting from the hip" taking guesses as to the cause of the stinkiness.


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## ibglowin (Jan 18, 2016)

Yes, As long as you get on it sooner rather than later it is completely treatable. Get some Reduless ASAP if you haven't already. I have used it twice for just this type of problem (slight H2S odor) and added the minimum dose for 3 days and racked off and it was like a new wine. Great stuff.



NorCal said:


> Did I get this right?


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## NorCal (Jan 18, 2016)

I placed my order for Reduless. However, I would like to run a CU test to understand what level of CU it will take to resolve the issue. What I cannot find is a good chart that shows how much to dilute the 1% CU and add to the sample and then working back to the larger volumes of wine. I created the below excel chart, but it differs from other published work by a factor of five and I can't figure out why. Anyone care to show me my error?

Edited: removed chart to be sure nobody used the incorrect info.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 18, 2016)

NorCal said:


> I placed my order for Reduless. However, I would like to run a CU test to understand what level of CU it will take to resolve the issue. What I cannot find is a good chart that shows how much to dilute the 1% CU and add to the sample and then working back to the larger volumes of wine. I created the below excel chart, but it differs from other published work by a factor of five and I can't figure out why. Anyone care to show me my error?



I believe the 1% solution is a weight/volume percentage. Weight/volume is not the same as ppm (due to differing atomic weight of water and copper sulfate).

See point #5 in this document: https://www.extension.iastate.edu/wine/sites/www.extension.iastate.edu/files/wine/coppersulfatetrial1.pdf


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## NorCal (Jan 18, 2016)

Thanks Sour.

Also found this.

Note: copper calculations are based on the fact that copper is about 25% of cupric sulfate penta-hydrate, by weight.


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## NorCal (Jan 22, 2016)

I added .5 g per gallon of Reduless to both of my small barrels tonight. I had a glass with around 100ml of wine that I put the residual Reduless in. I swear it smells better already, but it could just be my wishful mind playing tricks on me.


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## stickman (Jan 22, 2016)

Glad to hear it's going well, I don't think it's your mind, copper does react fast. At some future point, it may be interesting to compare this wine to some from the carboy that didn't require the copper treatment.


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## NorCal (Jan 22, 2016)

stickman said:


> Glad to hear it's going well, I don't think it's your mind, copper does react fast. At some future point, it may be interesting to compare this wine to some from the carboy that didn't require the copper treatment.



Hey Stick, the Carboy of Barbera is now officially topping wine for the barrels. The good news is that the will probably be the last time I rack these barrels, except for the day of bottling.


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## NorCal (Nov 27, 2016)

Thought it would be fun to do a look back. There were no lingering h2s affects. The Mourvèdre turned out to be the best wine I've ever made, really enjoying it and it will be entered in the state fair next year. The Zin is solid, enjoyed by most all, but not my favorite. The Barbera was the biggest disappointment. I left it in the 30 gallon French oak barrel too long and got overoaked. The good news is that the wood has started to integrate and I think it will only get better. All in all, it was a season that had its struggles, but I would feel good about putting a bottle in front of anyone.


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## Johny99 (Nov 27, 2016)

Thanks for the well thought thread. I have a slight H2S on my Sangiovese this year. So far I've splash racked, but some is still there. I'm going to try the reduless next.


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## MJD (Dec 9, 2016)

Thank you for providing the details of the journey. I am dealing with a similar slight sulfur presence in my 2016 Pinot Noir and this has served as a good assist on troubleshooting.


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## 4score (Feb 2, 2017)

Another learning from this; we found a super yeast strain that has no chance of H2S. It's called Andante. We used it last season and ZERO H2S problems this time!! Planning to use this baby again this year for sure!!!!!


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## hounddawg (Feb 2, 2017)

All you purest sweeten yovurr finds wines to semi sweet to sweet and send me some,
Just a classless no pallet hillbilly
Dawg


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## NorCal (Feb 2, 2017)

I am convinced that the H2S we experience is from the temperature of our ferments. We are fighting 100 degree days, in a closed garage with an open ferment. We throw ice jugs at it and the occasional dry ice, but still it is hard to contain a bin of 1000 lbs of grapes and hungry yeast. Runaway peak temps in the 90's is not uncommon. So, a problem we need to solve.


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## Johnd (Feb 2, 2017)

NorCal said:


> I am convinced that the H2S we experience is from the temperature of our ferments. We are fighting 100 degree days, in a closed garage with an open ferment. We throw ice jugs at it and the occasional dry ice, but still it is hard to contain a bin of 1000 lbs of grapes and hungry yeast. Runaway peak temps in the 90's is not uncommon. So, a problem we need to solve.



With the money we already have invested in winemaking, most of us are not looking for ways to spend more, but maybe you could find a used window unit to put in temporarily while you have your ferments going on, for a week or so. 

Even with better air temps in the garage, I suspect that due to the large size of your fermentation batches, you'll probably still need some dry ice or frozen milk jugs to keep the temps down. When I do 30 gallon brute ferments, the temps get into the upper 80's at their peak with 75F ambient temps in the fermentation area........


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## Redbird1 (Feb 2, 2017)

That's quite the dilemma. Is there any way to build a temporary "cold room"? I'm picturing plywood with the foam insulation sheets and a window A/C unit. I've seen people use similar construction on a much smaller scale for fermentation chambers using mini-fridge condenser units. I agree with John that it would probably still need ice jugs to keep the center of the mass cooled, but it would have to help, especially to try to knock down those peak temps. 

It would cost a little more up front, but I imagine the electricity savings would more than make up for that in the longer run versus trying to cool the entire garage. If you can free up a corner somewhere, especially along insulated walls, you could even get by with using about half the material. Just thinking out loud.


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## 4score (Feb 2, 2017)

Good ideas. @NorCal and I are looking at a home-made cooling approach. First we need to prototype the idea before we buy materials. 

We'll still use Andante yeast, but we still need to address the high temps. Dry ice is expensive and I worry that it damages some of the yeast population with such a shock to temps.


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## Redbird1 (Feb 2, 2017)

This is a good example of the small scale version I was referring to.


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## JohnT (Feb 2, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> Thanks for the well thought thread. I have a slight H2S on my Sangiovese this year. So far I've splash racked, but some is still there. I'm going to try the reduless next.



Check their web site. They were giving away free samples.

I have a 5 gallon test run aging now. The bulk of this batch used rc212. Can't wait to see the results.


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## TXWineDuo (Feb 2, 2017)

How about a DIY Glycol system?
For the fermentation bin:
https://morewinemaking.com/products/weldless-wine-cooling-plate-kit-225-475.html
or homemade Stainless steel 304 and bend yourself:
https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Seamless-Tubing-Length/dp/B004XN89EO
Glycol pump:
https://www.amazon.com/EFMCO-BRASS-PUMP-GLYCOL/dp/B00NWWD1EU
then some tubing to connect to the copper tubing drilled through the side wall of a cheap Chest Freezer:
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/avantco-cf5-5-3-cu-ft-commercial-chest-freezer/178CF5.html

Transfer that heat into the Freezer set at maximum! 

TXWineDuo


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## NorCal (Feb 2, 2017)

Ok, I wasn't going to let the cat out of the bag yet, but you have made suggestions on the path that I am heading down, which is to run cold water through a stainless steel coil in the macro bin. Sure, I could buy a glycol unit and a pre-made cooling plate, but not willing to spend that kind of $$. In fact, before I spend $80-$100 on 100 feet of SS coil and material to space it out, I want to proto-type the set-up to see how effective it will be. 

I calculated the surface area of the SS coil vs. volume of must in the macro bin, and kept that same ratio in the beer purging coil I have versus the volume of water I will put into the Brute. 

I'll fill the brute up with 25 gallons of 90 degree water, grab a big bag of ice and see how effective it is on pulling the heat out, as well as see how long the ice lasts. I will measure temp of the water in the Brute and the ice chest every minute or two. It won't be a perfect experiment, but the only cost is a bag of ice and I might learn something.

The plan would be to fill a medium size electric chest freezer with ice and water and pump in/out of it through the coil to cool the must in the macro bin.


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## TXWineDuo (Feb 2, 2017)

Looking forward to the results you find, we take 4 ice bottles and put in each of our water tubs that the brutes sit in. As pic shows we recycle old juice bottles. 
So when you do get the stainless steel wort chiller, can you hook it to the copper tubing and try to freeze some water around the copper and put in more chilled water in the igloo and test. Making a double heat exchanger. 
Good luck
TXWineDuo


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## NorCal (Feb 2, 2017)

Yea, I go that route too, but looking for something more effective.


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## stickman (Feb 3, 2017)

@NorCal, you've seen my setup, I've been doing this type of cooling for several years. It will take about 15lbs of ice to drop the 25gal of water by 10F, and based on the size of your coil I'm just guessing it will take about a half hour. The cooling will be faster if the circulating water flow rate is high enough to keep the ice water mixed.

With your size batch, you might consider an automatic pump-over, just have the pump periodically circulate the wine through the cooling coil and over the top of the cap. The only down side would be waking up in the morning to find something went wrong and the entire batch was pumped to the floor.

With my system, the jacket holds about 6 gallons of water, so I have the pump kick on only long enough to replace the cold water in the jacket. It sits until the jacket warms up before replacing the water again. With my small 60gal tank it only needs to do this a few times a day.


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## ceeaton (Feb 3, 2017)

NorCal said:


> Ok, I wasn't going to let the cat out of the bag yet, but you have made suggestions on the path that I am heading down, which is to run cold water through a stainless steel coil in the macro bin. Sure, I could buy a glycol unit and a pre-made cooling plate, but not willing to spend that kind of $$. In fact, before I spend $80-$100 on 100 feet of SS coil and material to space it out, I want to proto-type the set-up to see how effective it will be.
> 
> I calculated the surface area of the SS coil vs. volume of must in the macro bin, and kept that same ratio in the beer purging coil I have versus the volume of water I will put into the Brute.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of my wort chiller for beer making. With a slow trickle of water I can bring 5.5 gallons of 212*F wort to 60*F in 20 minutes with the water temperature around 42*F. Of course I'm not recirculating it but dumping it on my garden, since I can buy 1000 gallons of water for $1. You obviously can't do that with water being pretty scarce in your neck of the woods.

I guess I could make it a closed loop and have a second coil in an icy water bucket, then use the warmed water in the bucket to water my garden, might be considered a little bit more of an environmentally responsible method.

I do like how you are trying to solve your problem, keeps the mind young and healthy so you can enjoy more wine.


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## NorCal (Feb 6, 2017)

Did the experiment and showed that it was very effective at dropping the temp fast. It also showed that it consumed the ice way faster than I thought it would. 20 lbs ice, 25 gallons of water.


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## TXWineDuo (Feb 8, 2017)

@NorCal
was the ice bags or your frozen jugs?

TXWineDuo


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## NorCal (Feb 8, 2017)

It was a 20 lb bag of ice I emptied into the cooler with 3 gallons of water.


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## stickman (Feb 9, 2017)

It did a pretty good job of cooling, a little faster than I expected, but at least you have some numbers to work with.


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## TXWineDuo (Feb 9, 2017)

I would think that your 1 Gal frozen ice jugs would last longer being a bigger block of ice, maybe?
When our primary gets down to 75 degrees and the brew belt is not kicking on and I grab the melted 2 liter ice bottles out of the water my hand gets cold! 
So for another test in 2 phases 1) how long does the initial 2-ice bottles take to thaw and 2) once temperature for primary is achieved how long does the next 2-ice bottles take to thaw to know how often you have to change the ice bottles.

TXWineDuo

Here a video shows a block of ice takes longer to melt in chilled water.
https://youtu.be/FzxPYc8I__Q


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## cgallamo (Apr 12, 2017)

Bringing this thread back up because I believe heat and nutrients are not always the issue. 

I have had issues with H2S in about %60-%70 of my grape wine ferments (fresh and frozen pails seem the same), and zero with other fruits. I thought it was heat in the past, but this last time that does not explain it - they never rose above high 70s (maybe touched low 80s) and it was a long slow ferment. 

This time I had three batches going of frozen pail blends and had issues in 2 of the 3. I used yeasts that claim to have few problems with H2S (AMH, Rockpile, and BDX), followed the re-hydration procedure, and yeast nutrient schedule (even added %10-%20 more). H2S started to appear as soon as fermentation got underway in earnest maybe three days after pitching, and would blow off with stirring/punchdowns. The only difference (other than yeast) in the management of the batches was the size of the fermentation bin (the smaller ones had the issue), and the specific gravity when first racked (one that was racked earlier had greater issues probably because it took longer to ferment).

So what else could be the issue? The use of sulfur as a fungicide or other agricultural management technique? What are some other techniques we could try in winemaking process to reduce the production of H2S?

Using a yeast that does not produce H2S may be simpler, but what if it does not provide the flavor profile you are looking for? Also treating with copper is potentially problematic. I read somewhere (I think in the redulees documentation) that getting these compounds is not all bad, there are other similar compounds that provide spice, leather, smoke elements that are desirable in the wine, and treating it with copper may reduce or eliminate these as well.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 12, 2017)

cgallamo said:


> So what else could be the issue? The use of sulfur as a fungicide or other agricultural management technique? What are some other techniques we could try in winemaking process to reduce the production of H2S?



It is possible for sulfur-containing fungicides to be converted to H2S (without going through yeast. My understanding, however, is that every vineyard knows this, and so avoids using sulfur-based compounds close to harvest time. ( http://www.ajevonline.org/content/44/2/211 ).

In most cases, it appears that the principal pathway to H2S production is by the metabolic pathway of yeast that are nitrogen starved. See: 

https://www.practicalwinery.com/novdec05/novdec05p26.htm

http://aem.asm.org/content/61/2/461.full.pdf

http://search.proquest.com/docview/852549041/abstract

Here is my layman's description of the process as I understand it:



sour_grapes said:


> First of all, yeast autolysis is real, but the key word fragment there is _auto-_. The way it works is that, for whatever reason, a yeast cell dies. Then the enzymes in the now-dead cell begin to break down that cell. It is not the case that starved, zombie yeast cells start eating the brains of other yeast cells. However, John is correct: if yeast autolysis (especially of a large amount of sediment) is allowed to proceed for a long time, then sulfur compounds may be liberated. But this is different from the H2S produced during an active fermentation.
> 
> From my reading of the primary and secondary literature, this is my understanding of H2S production and its relation to N deficiency. Proteins are made of amino acids, and two important amino acids contain sulfur. The yeast has to provide the sulfur to form these compounds to the proper organelle during protein synthesis. It does so in the form of H2S, which it extracts from more complex sulfur-containing compounds. One organelle passes the H2S off to the organelle responsible for protein synthesis.
> 
> ...


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## jswordy (Apr 20, 2017)

Well, I'm glad this was brought back because I really enjoyed reading it! 

Going back to the fermentation cooling, another possibility that's used in beer making is evaporative cooling (the swamp cooler effect), and it would work particularly well in dry climes. It is amazing how cool a fermenter surrounded by continually wet fabric with a fan on it will get. 

Beer guys use XXL tee shirts stretched over their brew buckets, with a tail submerged in a water bucket to keep the shirt wet. I could envision something made from cheap towels and sewn to make a zip-able or button-able jacket for almost any size fermenter. After use, squeeze out and toss it in the washing machine to make it ready for next time.

Just an errant thought, offered FWIW.


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## NorCal (Apr 20, 2017)

jswordy said:


> Well, I'm glad this was brought back because I really enjoyed reading it!
> 
> Going back to the fermentation cooling, another possibility that's used in beer making is evaporative cooling (the swamp cooler effect), and it would work particularly well in dry climes. It is amazing how cool a fermenter surrounded by continually wet fabric with a fan on it will get.
> 
> ...



We have 3 ferments planned. 2 ton, 1 ton, .5 ton. On this scale, it's hard to scale solutions that work on 5 gallon levels. I ended up not doing anything, so we will go with good ferment temp monitoring, have ice jugs ready and dry ice for emergencies.


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## jswordy (Apr 22, 2017)

NorCal said:


> We have 3 ferments planned. 2 ton, 1 ton, .5 ton. On this scale, it's hard to scale solutions that work on 5 gallon levels. I ended up not doing anything, so we will go with good ferment temp monitoring, have ice jugs ready and dry ice for emergencies.



I make 20 gallons at a time. You guys are at winery levels of production.

FWIW, a second possibility is to obtain a new car radiator (large sizes of which can be bought for $300) or a large sized replacement part air conditioner condenser coil and connect it in series with a pump, thermostat and an immersion cooler coil. Use water as your coolant, and run a high speed fan through the radiator or condenser coil. The temp differentials produced in a/c systems and auto engines make this an attractive adaptation. 

You might even get more cooling effect if you set the condenser coil in a pan of water and use a small pump to also spray water from the pan on the side of the coil that the fan is on (again the swamp cooler effect, similar to a/c systems used on large buildings).

All of that would be relatively easy to assemble from online purchases and simple to construct and use.

Even at my 20-gallon level, I'm really aware of how high the temps can get once yeast get going, and I am exploring viable fixes myself.


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