# Intimidated by all of you



## tool (Apr 9, 2015)

You all sound like chemists and I don't know what you are talking about or measuring. lol

I've been making wine with my dad for years, but I never really paid attention, he's gone now. As far as i remember we picked some local grapes, bought 8 cases zinfandel & 1 or 2 alicante, added some sugar. Crushed, Fermented, Pressed, Racked & bottled, all without yeast or chemicals,,, everyone loved his simple wine.

Now I've been doing it on my own for 3 years & failing with undrinkable or sour wines. My last wine is sour, the PH is 2.95, what can be done?
I bottled with 20% Carlo Rossi Sweet red, in an attempt to sweeten, but it got sour in 24 hours.

Losing Interest, 
Thanks, Paul


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## dralarms (Apr 9, 2015)

Paul, stick around and let some of these great people help you. "Sour" wine can be a number of issues. You say you've been doing this with no additives, that works (sometimes) but the reason for adding the stuff we do is to get a great product each time (and then sometimes you will still get a bad batch, it happens).

I came here knowing nothing, and have learned so much from the "masters".

This is a great group of people, let us help.


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## ceeaton (Apr 9, 2015)

I agree with @dralarms. Most of us came here because we needed information. There are many ways to make good wine. I define good wine as a wine that YOU like and enjoy. The way your Dad made it worked, but there are a few things with his methods that they have a different way to do now that will help keep your wine from becoming sour. Using a commercial strain of yeast verses what comes on the grape skins is one of them.

I am very new to this and learning so much every day. I hope the day never comes when I stop learning, because the hobby will become stale (oxidized) to me at that point.


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## heatherd (Apr 9, 2015)

Paul,
Sorry about your Dad.

If your PH is low, then I believe your acid is high. Here's what I found on Ec Kraus for reducing acid:
http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-acidity 

Lowering Your Juice's Acidity
In most all situations you will be adjusting the acidity up not down, but there are rare occasions where the acidity may need to be lowered. One situation that comes to mind is when making wine with grapes that come from growing regions with shorter seasons than that of say California. The juice from these grapes can be too tart and quite often needs to be lowered.
Or, there may be a time when too much acid is mistakenly added to the juice. In either case your choices are the same:
1. Before the fermentation, you can dilute the juice with a mixture of sugar and water--4 cups sugar to each gallon of water.
2. Or after the fermentation, dilute the finished wine with water or another wine with similar character.
3. In more drastic situations you can use acid neutralizers such as our Acid Reducing Crystals.
4. Or in a very extreme case you can use a combination of any of the above.

Keep at it!
Heather


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## richmke (Apr 10, 2015)

it is possible that your dad used chemicals, and you never noticed. the steps you mentioned take a while, and some need help from others (you).

It is easy and quick to dump k-meta and pitch yeast without you noticing.


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## grapeman (Apr 10, 2015)

There may have been another factor involved you didn't know about that was reducing his acid levels. Unless you are at his place using his cellar or whatever room he made it in, you would not have the native organisms present at his place. He had his own strain of yeast inhabiting his room. It was likely a strain that had come in with some of the purchased grapes and was probably a pretty good wine yeast to ensure a nice fermentation. Then he would have likely had a native malolactic bacteria present. The MLB would live in the room and since the wine wasn't sulfited, it would have taken hold in the wine and caused a malolactic fermentation either alongside or after the normal alcoholic fermentation. MLF reduces the sharper malic acid levels to a softer less acidic lactic acid. This improves mouthfeel and reduces the acidic affects on the taste.


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## dralarms (Apr 10, 2015)

More good information. Hadn't thought of mlb fermentation.


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## JohnT (Apr 10, 2015)

Tool, 

Sorry about your dad. 

There could be many reasons for your wine turning sour. I understand that you "pick local grapes". I assume that you mean that you actually pick the grapes off the vine. The simplest reason for the sourness is that those grapes were not ripe enough. Perhaps your dad had the talent of knowing the correct ripeness? 

Other most likely reasons could be that you are not maintaining good sanitary practices or, perhaps, the wild yeast that has taken hold of your wine during fermentation is to blame. 

Another simple reason could possibly be that the wine fermented dry and you are used to sweeter wines. If this is the case, you could "tone down" the sourness, by adding a little sugar. Do a bench test. Take a small sample of your wine, add a small amount of sugar, then taste it. Did it improve things?? 

I know that we can be a bit "off putting", but believe me that we are here to help. The best way to begin is for you to list in detail, step by step, your winemaking process. We can then make suggested improvements to your process which you can either adopt of ignore. No hurt feeling here. 

The only paycheck we get here is the "thank you" posts we get or when we hear that a batch of wine turned out great. We are not here to criticize, just to help.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

Hey, Paul, welcome to the forum. Do not despair. There is something very basic that is going awry and you will be able to figure it out. 

I wonder if you can help us with some additional information. You say that you "picked some local grapes, bought 8 cases of Zinfandel & 1 or 2 Alicante, added some sugar." I am assuming that you were living in MA at the time so I doubt that the Zinfandel and Alicante were the "local" grapes. What were the local grapes? Because your Father "added some sugar," I assume that he either measured or tasted the must and found it too low in sugar. I suspect that the local grapes were Concord. 

When you made the wine yourself, what grapes did you use? Zinfandel, Alicante or some combination? Where did you acquire them? How much did you use?

When you say "sour" do you mean sour like vinegar or dry, i.e. little sweetness?

What equipment are you using? Are you using your Father's stuff or did you buy your own? Are you making the wine in the same location that your Father did or somewhere else? 

The way your Father made wine is very similar to the way that my Grandfather did long ago. (I am guessing that your ancestors are from Southern Italy.) Are you sure that what you stated is all that your Father put in his wine? Did he not use any white grapes in his wine? Did he not use Potassium Meta-bisulfite or Sodium Bisulfite? My Grandfather did not add yeast and relied on the spores that were on the grapes from California. That, in fact, is a "hit or miss" proposition and may be contributing to the problem.

Hang in there and give it some time. As Archie Bunker used to say, "Romania wasn't built in a day!"


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## Troll (Apr 10, 2015)

The "science" beats luck for repeatability-good luck.


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## jswordy (Apr 10, 2015)

richmke said:


> it is possible that your dad used chemicals, and you never noticed. the steps you mentioned take a while, and some need help from others (you).
> 
> It is easy and quick to dump k-meta and pitch yeast without you noticing.



I would doubt it, though. My grandfather and uncles made wine just the way that was described, and it was good. As long as you are buying good vineyard grapes your chance of a superior natural yeast being present on the skins is excellent, since many vineyards use the spent grapes as mulch and so gradually inoculate the grapes.

Grandpa and my uncles always ordered their grapes from California through the same supplier. Rather than chemical preservatives, they stored the wine in airtight oak barrels in the basement until it was drawn for use. The same can be done in full carboys that are sealed and in a dark, cool place. There is an older way to make wine. It's still in use in ethnic neighborhoods across the country today.


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## tool (Apr 10, 2015)

Wow so many responses. I will try to answer as many questions as i can. i know my dad didnt even use yeast, i did make the wine in a different basement. in 2013 i use his recipe, as i described above with the sour wine.
But in 2014 i used way too many concord & some other unidentified (local) grapes. 8 cases local, 2 zin, 1 alicante. I have the book "from Vines to Wines" so i did all the calculations SG 1.062, Brix 16, , added 30 lbs of sugar. finished fermenting SG .995 PH 3.05 tasted perfect (a little dry). I made 2 batches aprox same numbers & Racked into 3 barrels Bottling one in early Dec, one in late Jan. & the last one 1 week ago. All about the same taste PH 2.95 in my glass at the moment. (is it possible for them to age well?)

Going to raise the ph in a five gallon test carboy & see what happens.

Next year back to the old recipe, but using yeast. 

thank you all, Paul


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## JohnT (Apr 14, 2015)

Yes, a PH adjustment is definitely called for. How do you plan on adjusting it and what is your target level?


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## NorCal (Apr 15, 2015)

Can you get grapes with a higher pH? Ask for late harvest?


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## tool (Apr 27, 2015)

Last harvest was a weird one, the ripe grapes were falling off the vine while other were still green. I don't know the cause. So I felt a later harvest was impossible. The ph was definitely too low. 

Update: I adjusted the ph in 6 gallons with Calcium Carbonate until I got to ph=3.55 then it was kind of flavorless, I added a conditioner called "Super Smoother" & I bottled, Its a drinkable mild wine.

The previous batch of wine was bottled at 3.05 ph, but i tested one today & the ph is 3.12 & is little less sour. What do you think is going on in those bottles? 

living & learning,
Thanks, Paul


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