# How long before bottling?



## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2013)

I'm probably being impatient, but I'm curious how long a person should let finished plum wine sit to clear before bottling? I'm looking at about 10 gallons of wine that has been stabilized, back sweetened and is now sitting in 1 gallon jugs, plus one 5 gal carboy. 
A month? 6 months? A year? I was hoping to bottle some for Christmas gifts this year.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 2, 2013)

if its stabalized, and backsweeten....if its not clear...you have two choices..
let time have it...which may take forever with plum.
are....buy a finning agent, called super-kleer.
super kleer does not impart off taste and will not strip the color out.
you hit it with super kleer you can bottle in a week, maybe 10 days.


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## cimbaliw (Nov 2, 2013)

I've not done plum but you might also try pectic enzyme to hasten clearing. I think the label suggests 1/2t gallon. Fining agents could be a hassle if you're broken into 10-1gal lots. You may want to transfer half of your 10gal to a 5 or 6 gal carboy before using super clear or sparkaloid.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks, guys.
A couple other points with this batch. 
It's a beautifully clear burgundy color, but it still seems to be precipitating. Hahaha! That's probably because it's only 24-28 days since stabilization. I have it in a 40 deg root cellar, and the rate of clearing has been amazing. 
I'll probably give it another week, and then just go for it. Any I give away will be with instructions for decanting it.


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 2, 2013)

plumb is slow to completely clear. I have just learned to live with the settling on the bottoms. If you can wait longer, do it. I rub off all the natural white wax on fruit now and it does speed it up( for future). I have waited 6 months and still had some settling.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2013)

mmadmikes1 said:


> plumb is slow to completely clear. I have just learned to live with the settling on the bottoms. If you can wait longer, do it. I rub off all the natural white wax on fruit now and it does speed it up( for future). I have waited 6 months and still had some settling.


Maybe that's why mine is so clear after only 4 weeks. All my plums (Italian) are washed before crushing. Then I extract the juice and go from there. This batch fermented dry in 14 days, and there was 1/2" of 'sludge' in the bottom of the primary. 
It will be the 3rd racking when it goes in the bottles, so hopefully there won't be much more to precipitate out.
Thanks again for all the input, folks!


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## Tess (Nov 2, 2013)

I bottle mine once I know its clear.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2013)

Tess said:


> I bottle mine once I know its clear.



Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too.


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## Tess (Nov 2, 2013)

I mean whats the point of waiting? I dont have the carboys to let go for months of bulk aging and facts are your wine ages faster in the bottle. Ifs it clear and degassed properly it OK to bottle if that is your choice!!


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2013)

Tess said:


> I mean whats the point of waiting? I dont have the carboys to let go for months of bulk aging and* facts are your wine ages faster in the bottle*. Ifs it clear and degassed properly it OK to bottle if that is your choice!!



Didn't know that! Thanks!


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## Tess (Nov 2, 2013)

Im serious. Iv done everything i can possibility do to my wine in the first two weeks. Sometimes I just think people make so much at one time they dont want to buy the bottles buttttt..... Im still new so dont go by what I say as the word, as gospel !!!! lol


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2013)

Tess said:


> Im serious. Iv done everything i can possibility do to my wine in the first two weeks. Sometimes I just think people make so much at one time they dont want to buy the bottles buttttt..... Im still new so dont go by what I say as the word, as gospel !!!! lol


Well, after 3 years, building on what I learned from the fine folks here, I'm pretty comfortable with my routine. We had a bumper crop this year, so I'm dealing with 14 gallons of plum wine, and 20 gallons of apple wine.
I have a friend who is a refuse collector, and he just brought me ANOTHER 3 dozen 750ml wine bottles. It's a good thing, too, because I'm still about 40 bottles shy of being able to cork everything I have this year!


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## Tess (Nov 2, 2013)

Good for you!! I truly believe its all about what you have available!! Im not buying this bulk aging thing at all.. Im sorry, At least not as far as the best wine making practice!! Just me!!


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 2, 2013)

I wait because clear is not always completely clear and wait doesn't hurt. I use to filter but not anymore


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## Tess (Nov 2, 2013)

no it dont but after a while you know! you just do!!It ether clear or its not


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

Tess said:


> Good for you!! I truly believe its all about what you have available!! Im not buying this bulk aging thing at all.. Im sorry, At least not as far as the best wine making practice!! Just me!!


Aging, smaging...I just may be facing bulk storage at this point.


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## GreginND (Nov 3, 2013)

My plum's going on a year now and it just won't clear. I think I'll try to filter it and just live with it cloudy. I think it must be the darned wax.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

GreginND said:


> My plum's going on a year now and it just won't clear. I think I'll try to filter it and just live with it cloudy. I think it must be the darned wax.


Did you use heat in any of the process? Sounds like my very first batch. Pectin haze that just never went away. Filter won't work, even through a coffee filter.


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## GreginND (Nov 3, 2013)

No heat. I used pectinase in the beginning and tried more later. I am pretty sure it's a wax residue from he skins.


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## Arne (Nov 3, 2013)

Think I may have the same problem, Greg. It has been sitting and waiting for a loooong time. Have to check for sure, but know it is over a year. One of these days going to try and superkleer it. Used Pectic pre and post ferment, bentonite, sparkaloid, all on 1 gal. I had seperate. It is no clearer than the other 5 gal. we will see what superkleer does. Arne.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

Guys, were these commercial "purple" plums you used, or the Italian prune plums? If they were the big, purple juicy plums from the store, there may have been more sprayed on them than just wax. I dunno.... I've heard other similar stories with those. I've only used my home grown Italian plums.


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## Turock (Nov 3, 2013)

Many things take place during bulk aging and I would encourage the doubters to do some reading on this subject at the Lab sites and other good sites like EC Kraus. Why do you think so many people here have issues after bottling? If you could clear a wine in a couple weeks, no one would complain about cloudy wine in the bottle, excessive sediment in the bottle, or the sorbate not working. Anyone who doesn't believe in the bulk aging process just doesn't understand the chemistry of what's going on.

We've made ALOT of plum wine over the years using all sorts of varieties. We always wash fruit before using it, but don't pay special attention to the wax. However, we always use bentonite in the primary. All our plum clears very nice. So when using the whole fruit, always bentonite. It does a good job on protein haze and bentonite heat stabilizes the wine too.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

Turock said:


> ..... Anyone who doesn't believe in the bulk aging process just doesn't understand the chemistry of what's going on.
> 
> ... So when using the whole fruit, always bentonite. It does a good job on protein haze and bentonite heat stabilizes the wine too.


So save me some reading time here. You're saying bulk aging is the route to go? So at what point does one decide it's time to bottle?

Maybe one of the reasons I get fast clearing is that I don't ferment on the fruit. I extract the juice and go from there. The other thing that might help me is I can set the bulk containers to clear in about 40 degrees in my root cellar. I read somewhere the cold helps.


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## Turock (Nov 3, 2013)

It's WAY too much to type here. I suggest you access the UC Davis website on their winemaking course. You'll have a real appreciation for all the chemical changes that take place during bulk aging---it's more than just clearing a wine!!!! But I'll give a small over-view below.

How to know when to bottle---this why bulk aging is so important. So many people on wine forums talk about stabilizing wine. Most of the time, they are alluding to using sorbate. But the real secret is that when you are bulk aging THAT is stabilizing a wine. Haze, precipitates, and sediments form colloides and then form large agglutinated complexes. Given enough time for these polymerzation and agglutination reactions to take place, the particulate matter drops out and can be removed thru racking. This removes these unstable components from the wine, thus stabilizing it. Now there are conditions that depend on this happening in any given time frame. But essentially, 1 to 1 1/2 years is the time frame we always work with.

Aging also gets rid of unwanted esters that may form due to microbes, which are also unstable. Given time, these dissipate and improve the wine too. Plus, aging stabilizes tannins, pigments and color. Bitter or astringent compounds form large clusters and drop out too.

Yes, juice has less debris in it as far as clearing goes. But as you see---bulk aging isn't just about wine being clear.

Cold stabilization depends on the use of carbonate. Usually potassium carbonate. If you are using calcium carbonate to increase PH, it will drop out the acids at room temp. And also--believe it or not, CS depends on PH and is used more for acid reduction than clearing. I'm not a fan of CS for any reason other than acid reduction, but agree that if you use bentonite in the secondary and still have cloudy wine after a few months, some chilling of the wine seems to aid in clearing. Cool temps are better for wine storage than warm temps--so that right there is a good reason for storing the wine in the root cellar.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

Thanks!
What I know about wine chemistry you could put in a thimble and rattle like a BB in a boxcar. I doubt I'll ever get that sophisticated in my approach. I'm just happy if it isn't cloudy, tastes like the fruit from which it was made, produces the desired effect, and gets compliments. I'm calling it a success.

I wish I had the resources and space to keep a 50 gallon barrel of wine sitting for 18 months. If just ONE of my bottles goes a year without being consumed, I'm lucky. I have a small (500ml) bottle of crabapple wine that's just over a year old now. I'm expecting it will be pretty good come Thanksgiving this year. It's pretty unlikely that someone will find a 2013 vintage bottle of wine in my cellar 20 years from now.


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## Turock (Nov 3, 2013)

I have to tell you----I became a much better winemaker after I started doing some serious studying on the subject. When you know WHY you're doing WHAT you're doing, anything you approach is going to turn out better. Just because you're not a professional doesn't mean you shouldn't use professional technique. And ALL winemakers should learn what "best practices" are--why they're used. You will be far more successful with what you're doing at the primary, and exactly HOW to design the wine you're looking for. 

I'm a perfectionist kind of person---no matter what I do, whether it's a tiling project, woodworking, doing body work on my antique cars, or winemaking---I'm always reading and studing technique to give me more tools for success. I don't like failure just because I was in too much of a hurry to do my homework. Getting more info on proper technique is not sophistication---it is a tool to be used to get better results.

Well, we don't use barrels--no room. However, because of the need for bulk aging, blending, oaking, MLF's----this is how we came to own 80 carboys. We've never bottled too early just because we needed a carboy--we went out and bought more. Built carboy racks and made a kitchen setup with cabinets in order to make use of every inch of space. Where there's a will--there's a way.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

I came to this site after a miserable failure with a "home recipe" by some guy who claimed to make 200 gallons of wine each year. Phew!!! He should sell it as bio-fuel. 
Anyway, the knowledge I gained here got me on the right track. So much misinformation out there, ya know? 
I used to be a perfectionist myself. I've mellowed over time. I don't let myself get so bogged down in details that I loose site of my goal. I still put together a woodshed as if I were building a cabinet, but in other areas, I don't get totally anal. 
I agree 100% that if you know WHY you're doing something, you can repeat and adjust the process accordingly. I used to be "process oriented", but now I'm more "goal oriented". Must be a function of age, or something.
I guess I have to say that my wine making over the past 3 years hasn't become a "hobby". It's just part of my Fall Harvest. What I'm really saying is that I don't have to educate myself in chemistry to know that I have to put sodium in my veggie preserves to maintain color, or that I need to blanch fruit before drying. I just take the 'expert's' word for it, and do it. I approach my "wine harvest" much the same way.
I appreciate very much the time you've taken to explain the aging process. It was educational, and gives me a better understanding of why what I'm doing seems to work. I just need more patience.


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## Turock (Nov 3, 2013)

I enjoyed that response. I've always been a student of the world--working hard to find what's TRUTH and what's just BS or opinion. I really make a considerable attempt on these forums to give people the truth, and not just my opinion. But I realize that not everyone is as intense as I am. And that's OK. 

I see where you're at---a part-time winemaker just to utilize fruit and not all that interested in the machinations of wine science. But then you joined this forum and have the advantage of all the knowledge that the wine geeks, who have to study everything, have. If you ask the question we will answer!! So you still get the knowledge--that's a good thing.

Yes--when you know why you're doing something, then you can repeat the success. Reproducibility is very important in winemaking. We want our wine to taste the same year upon year. That's exactly why we began being far more serious about what we do.

Patience is everything in winemaking. When you see how well that works, then there's the reason to do it. And then you become even more patient because you see the benefits of doing it. Good luck with that plum--let her age up. One of our plums from last year is OK--but it needs more aging time to firm the flavors.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 3, 2013)

Turock said:


> I enjoyed that response. I've always been a student of the world--working hard to find what's TRUTH and what's just BS or opinion. I really make a considerable attempt on these forums to give people the truth, and not just my opinion.....


LOL! That's my philosophy, also. Facts vs opinion. I use "IMHO" caveat with wild abandon when speaking only from experience. 
My Dad used to say, "I may be wrong, but I ain't lyin'."


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## GreginND (Nov 3, 2013)

My plum was from my tree - smaller yellow/reddish plums.


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