# Champlain Valley - Grapemans' vineyard - Planting to small winery



## grapeman

Well I finally got my new vineyard started last weekend. I had worked the ground earlier and was eagerly awaiting the arrival of my new additions from Double A Vineyards. I had received 20 vines from Millers last month. I set them in some 2 gallon containers in the greenhouse. Will tell more about sources and varieties later. I rented a post hole digger with 16" auger because I had almost 200 holes to do-between posts and vines. Started at about 9:30 AM and finished in about 3 hours. What a time and labor saver!


Anyway here are some pictures of progress so far.







Just kidding about that one! Hope mine turns out like this someday.








The beginning.....



































Now some vines... first a LaCross before trimming.








Trimmed...






Planted(same vine all pictures)











More assorted pictures..












A Frontenac started inmy greenhouse-from Millers.








Throw in a few apple blossoms- just starting in picture, but now almost full bloom.








I'll post more pictures later. Last night I set the end anchors and hope to run the wires this weekend if the weather breaks for a while(raining now).


I set 40 Frontenac, 20 St.Pepin, 25 LaCross from Double A and 20 assorted vines from Millers- some seedless- all pretty hardy.


Richard*Edited by: appleman *


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - amazing soil you have, not a rock to be seen. Very different from 
what I dealt with this spring as I dug my vineyard in. I bought Frontenac and 
St. pepin also, plus 4 other varieties, but from Northeastern Vine Supply in 
Vermont. They will ship in early June in grow pots, already started. Perhaps 
as the summer passes we and Masta can compare experiences. We have 
some 3 year old table grapes that I'm enjoying watching as they begin 
leafing out. Good luck with your vines!
Bill


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## grapeman

Thanks Bill.


The one end of the field runs sandy and is a little too well drained. I have a hydrant at that end. The other end has some baseball sized stones but not a lot. It also has more clay in it. Grapes don't like an over fertile soil, but like it deep. This should be a good site.


The 20 vines from Millers I got in Mid-April so I stuck them in pots in the greenhouse- the roots really started and spread well. This seems to be a good way to give them a jump start.


I also am starting 100 Frontenac, 50 Chardonnel, 50 Leon Millot, 25 Alden, 20 Buffalo and my own 25 Niagara from cuttings. They are finally starting to root. The most developed vines have about 6 inches of root growth, but most are just beginning. They only cost 50 cents apiece from Double A so not a big investment. If they aren't ready for planting by early June, I may set them in a nursery row and irrigate for this year, setting next year.


Hope your vines arrive soon. Let me know how they look when they arrive. How is the shipping handled with the plants started in pots? I live just across the lake from them.


Richard


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## masta

WOW!!!!



I am very impressed with your operation and I am a bit ashamed about calling my 12 vines stuck in between the rocks a vineyard.






As you said the soil looks perfect since vines don't really like fertile soil. We have more rocks than anything else at our house but I did live about 10 miles away where the soil was nothing but a top layer of loam and beach sand underneath but had a 2ft water table.


Please keep us posted!!!


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## PolishWineP

Oh man! You got me with that first picture!






It was the positioning of the scroll of the screen that did it!


It all looks great though! It looks almost like you're planting at the beach.


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## grapeman

Actually you are right about the beach. This used to be the beachline of Lake Champlain about 10,000 years ago. We have some topsoil on top, but the subsoil is actually like beachsand and is about 4-12 feet deep. Under that is about a ten foot band of gray clay. This area was actually under the lake before the last glaciers receeeded. The clay band keeps the water up within reach of most plants. The other side of the farm(about a mile away) my brother grows vegetables on. 


We've gtten about an inch of rain today so I couldn't run the trellis wire, but I could hear the little vinelings giggling with delight in the rain...... Oh, wait a minute, maybe I did a little too much sampling today while I was bottling that Zinfandel and Mexican Beer.


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## sally3

Wow! I am impressed! I am a neighbor...Michigan. I
never thought of planting a serious vineyard. This is really
exciting and beautiful.  Sally


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## PolishWineP

Oh, I'm sure you did hear them giggling.




You just need to know what to listen for to hear them. It's a good sign that they will be loved!


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - Yes, Northeastern Vine is over on the west side of Vermont. I 
believe shipping is by UPS, but I don't know how Andy Farmer packages his 
vines.

You are an orchardist - do you know anything about espalier training for 
fruit trees, or have done any yourself? My wife and I are new to it and trying 
to get 6 plum and pear trees trained to horizontal wires.

Bill


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## Angell Wine

I'm jealous. 270 vines, that would about 1000 - 750 liter bottles. You're going need a taster in about 5 years. Keep me in mind now.


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## grapeman

Bill


I've never done any espalier training, but it shouldn't be that difficult for someone with your skills. Start with the young tree - they are more pliable obviously. I've seen some pretty imprssive trees done that way. I visited a commercial orchard in PeruNYsome years ago that had a whole block( a few thousand trees)trained to wire. High density planting allowed the small trees to really bear. I looked into it a few years ago. I remember I did a Google search and came up with a lot of info.


Go for it Bill.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - I appreciate the encouragement. We're going for it, too late to 
decide no. There are 4 plums and 4 pears in the ground as of this weekend, 
all topped, with wires set at the height of the cuts. Hopefully in a few weeks 
we'll see new budding at the cuts and be on our way.


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## grapeman

Well after battling the rain for days, I have at least got a start running the trellis wires. I've gotten 2 rows done-three wires each. The first is at 20 inches, 2nd at 42 inches and the third at 66 inches. I ran the anchor brace wires and tensioned them. I found a product called the Gripple. You pass the wire in each way and it locks. Using their tool you tighten it up and it tensions the wire at the same time. They are available all over but I use www.orchardvalleysupply.com . I also set the 5 foot bamboo stakes at each vine and using the Max-Tapener tool, fastened them to the trellis wire and the vine to the pole. 


I'll post some pictures when it stops raing in a month or so



. I was hoping to get some pictures of the apple trees in full bloom, but the rain just won't stop. I hope the bees can work in between the rain showers.


More to follow..........


Richard


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## PolishWineP

I'm so jealous of all of you.All y'allguys must not have the quantity of deer and rabbits that we do. If we tried that without 9 foot fence all the way around, it would be like Bambi's &amp; Thumper's Buffet Restaurant!



Do you have to do anything to keep your local wild life out?


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## grapeman

PWP,


Actually I have some deer very close by. They love the apple treats next door (no I didn't mispell it - the apple trees and fruit are their favorite treat). So far they haven't gotten too thick - 20 years ago there was zero deer in the area. I figure I can live with the wildlife in harmony, although the mice are a little hard to take. 10 years ago I hand grafted 250 rootstock with 10 varieties of apples. We had the hunongous ice storm after that and the mice used it for a superhighway to have a buffet on my trees. Out of those trees I saved 9. I was noticing they hadn't budded out yet this year and checked- they also were girdled.


Back to the deer and grapes- Not wanting to offend anybody by this but........ I decided that if the deer were going to dine on me(figuratively), that I would dine on them(literally). The 190 pond 8 point buck was delicous- like a pig with an apple in it's mouth - Oh wait a minute it ate like a pig filling it's mouth with apples. I rarely get apples below 5 feet off the ground. I figured that if they eat some grapes, maybe they will develop some complex wine overtones too. Thinking ahead, I overplanted numbers to allow for some grazing. I know the deer have found them, because they investigated the trellis wires and a few crossed through them. Time will tell how bad they get.


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## OilnH2O

Appleman, good for you!






When The PWP asked how do you keep your local wildlife out, my first thought was "thirty-ought-six!"


My Junior Partner and key component of my winemaking operation got his second, barley-fed 4-point muley (western count!) last fall and it isdelicious -- and the venison thuringer and pepperoni go great with a little Dubliner cheese anda nice red before dinner!


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## PolishWineP

OilnH2O said:


> My Junior Partner and key component of my winemaking operation got his second, barley-fed 4-point muley (western count!) last fall and it isdelicious -- and the venison thuringer and pepperoni go great with a little Dubliner cheese anda nice red before dinner!




Mmmmmm.....


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## grapeman

We got our first full day of sunshine in about 3 weeks today. Sunny and about 70 degrees. The grape vines liked it. The ones I started in the greenhouse and set out looked great today. The ones I planted dormant are breaking really well now. Most have a little green growth, but a few of the Frontenac are still only showing a green bud or two. The cuttings I am rooting have set quite a few roots now on all varieties except the Fronten. They have some growth but where they are getting the mositure from, I don't know-they have absolutely no roots, not even callouses. I went through them with the disc harrows after spraying the apple trees-post bloom. Not sure how many set with no sun for the bees to work in.


Anybody have any experience with rooting Frontenac? Let me know what your experiences were. I know they have to root sooner or later or they wouldn't get propogated much.


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## grapeman

I figured I would post a picture of a few of my vines I started from cuttings. There is 4 of them in that pot. They are Leon Millot grapes. I am going to try and set about 100 out this weekend that have rooted pretty well now. I don't want them to get too root bound with each other. I had to share pots to get them going from lack of room. Sorry the picture isn't the clearest-I'm no photographer.


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## OilnH2O

WOW! Hope ours turn out as well (but they've been rooted for all of 5 days now)!Yours look great!



Post more pic's when they are in the ground


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## grapeman

We had a second day of sun today so I played hookey for a while and went out to snap a few pictures. First of all- blue sky.Then the grapes and vineyard.















These couple are my rooted cuttings from Double A




















Please ignore the grass and weeds in these pictures- been too wet to get rid of yet. By the way the tractor tracks are from where I sprayed them last evening.








These vines came from Double A as rooted cuttings- the ones at the beginning of the post shown on the pickup hood.








Look close above- yes those are fruit buds showing- three on this plant. I have been picking them off when I get the chance.


Finally, the spinning jenny from stringing the last row of wires- in this block. I have 5 more rows to set posts and string the wire as I get the greenhouse rooted cuttings planted. Actually I may just put in the stakes this year and put the trellis wires in next spring. We'll see.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - Very nice! It is amazing to see the "beach sand" you have for 
soil, so different from mine here in coastal Maine. It is really fun to see 
the small plants, same height as mine and I suppose Masta's too. It will 
be fun and interesting to watch them all grow (with any luck.) Conditions 
so far this spring have been cloudy, wet and cool here. We need HEAT




Bill


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## masta

Guess what....more heavy rain for us today and showers on and off through Saturday!


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## grapeman

Turn the heat on!






The weather is finally straightening out up here. We actually are having some pretty fair weather and boy are the vines showing it!. It's been sunny at least part of the day most of the week. Today we are having a banner day- Sun and a high of 94 degrees. The vines have about doubled in size in the last few days. I set out another 25 rooted cuttings yesterday of Chardonnel. There are about 50-75 Frontenac that are almost ready to go. I hoed the vines this morning and harrowed between them and they look good. Many of the vines have reached the first trellis wire set at 20 inches. 


Side note:


I am having help with pruning the Concord and Niagara vines I already had growing. Their growth has been very vigorous with all the rain and I figured I would have to trim them pretty soon. A couple nights ago there were pointy two toed footprints in the vineyard. The pruning fairies had visited and viola, the vines were trimmed up nicely!



. Guess I will have some very complex tasting venison this fall.



I wonder how that would be with some Mojjo spices on it- mmmmmm.*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

How are everybody's vines fairing with all the rain here in the east? If ever there were perfect conditions for fungi and mildew, it would be this year here. Luckily I haven't seen much yet, even though it rains almost every day and has been in the upper 70's to 80's. The vines seem to like it though. I will have to post some more pictures if it ever stops raining. Most vines are at leat up to the first wire and some are approaching the second- getting near the top of there training poles. I can't wait for a couple more years to pass so I can try some of the fruits of my labor.


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman...
Love the looks of your new vineyard....are those apple trees beside the vines???? Your going to have lots of grapes in a few years.
To all of you who are starting a vineyard, or just a few grape vines as we have, I can't stress enough to build a very strong, well braced fence...the weight of the vines and fruit become amazing and even our over-built fence sags under the weight.
I was not able to prune my vines this spring and this is how an overgrown vine can become...




These are some 6 year old Beta vines [very hardy, Concord type juice grape].

Our end posts are braced very well and it is needed as the wires can sag from the weight.





Even a young plant can put a lot of weight on the wires...




This is a young Valiant vine...[also a hardy Concord juice type grape]
We have one vine at each wooden post, spaced 8 feet apart and each vine is tied to a post....they grow together at 8 feet and can become very dense with foliage. I think the rows are 10 feet apart, need to get air movement through them.

Our tender grapes are grown on a strong wire panel, tied to a post, the panel is untied in the fall and laid on the ground...have had good luck with the tender ones so far [3 winters].Tho, I found that we need to use taller panels and hope to change them next spring.




This is an Edelweiss vine [a white table grape] It is growing on a 3 foot by 5 foot piece of hog panel...hope to be able to cut them off and tie them to a 4 foot tall by 8 foot wide cattle panel next spring. As you can see this vine an all the garden is suffering from lack of rain and a gross lack of care and pruning.





I went out to do some much needed summer canopy pruning and found some ....TENANTS..



d 
Looks like a Robin has started another small brood...




Usually we just have House Wrens living in the grapes and raspberries....




They are very cross when I go out to pick the raspberries and sing and chatter the whole time I am out there....
Their nests are lovely delicate little ones...




I usually find 2 or 3 each fall when I prune the raspberries....they are made of about 50% horse hair. The nests are so cute, some years I put them in the Christmas tree.

So, guess the summer canopy pruning will be watched closely by the Robins and House Wrens...always nice to have some company while you work.





*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

Thanks NW. Yes those are apple trees next to the vineyard. It is a mixed block of 15 varieties-everything from Mac's to Northern Spies and even some newer varieties. They all do pretty well up here, but some of the more dwarfing rootstock are showing signs of decline. I may have to replace them in a few years. If the grapes do well, I may replace with more of them.


You say your vines are suffering from lack of rain? How many inches you need. We can spare you 20 or so about now. More gully washers again in the wee hours of the morning today.


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## NorthernWinos

appleman said:


> Thanks  NW. Yes those are apple trees next to the vineyard. It is a mixed block of 15 varieties-everything from Mac's to Northern Spies and even some newer varieties. They all do pretty well up here, but some of the more dwarfing rootstock are showing signs of decline. I may have to replace them in a few years. If the grapes do well, I may replace with more of them.
> 
> 
> You say your vines are suffering from lack of rain? How many inches you need. We can spare you 20 or so about now. More gully washers again in the wee hours of the morning today.



We are in a terrible drought up here in NW Minnesota...April we got .76", May we got 2.66" and in June a mere .79...We are weather watchers for this township in this county, so these readings are from an official rain gauge.....seems 80% chance of rain will give us .05/100ths.We need a good inch a week for our crops, but that sure isn't happening. The crops are living on hope and promisses....No diseases on the roses and grapes tho.... Send us some of your excess, we sure need it...seems a good rain is too much to ask for this year......So it goes.*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

NW


Just the opposite here. We have been in an extreme excess for three months. We are running about 5-6" excess each month. Forget percentage chance of rain-just count on it most days. Saturday there was an outside chance of widely scattered thunderstorms late in the day-they should have said widespread. We had two before noon and another two later in the day and another overnight. I'm glad I have well drained soils here, but I have had to supplement fertilizer this year. At least I'm better off than my brother who relies on the weather for the vegetable farm. He has only gotten one third of the crops in this year and he will be lucky if he gets any marketable crop at all. Around here we normally havesweet corn by the end of July- the few stray plants that came up early haven't even tasseled yet. Ipick tomatoesstarting about July 4, the biggest I have are the size of chicken eggs and my brother just got his planted about 10 days ago.






Pleasefeel free to take some of our rain!


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## grapeman

Time to update the vinews progress. Here are some pictures. The first couple show the difference between 1 year rooted cuttings(right side)and this years rooted cuttings- big difference so far. The next ones show progress of vines where I have the trellis build. A couple pictures showing yes I have deer and the results of some feeding(stripped leaves). And finally a picture showing that yes in spite of all the rain, there are some apples, although I havent got the grass under the trees mowed yet, just between the rows.

































































And just to show they do exist here- a stone.





*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Wow, you sure are caring for you vines nicely, they are looking great.
I bet the deer enjoy those apples too.We had a early warm spring that sent the wild and domestic fruits into an early bloom, then a late frost........ so the bloosoms froze, didn't think that would bother them, but there sure aren't many apples this year.......just as well...it is so dry that if the trees were loaded as usual it would put a lot of stress on the them.
Your efforts are sure looking good....good luck with all your ventures.



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## PolishWineP

We have loads of apples on our tree this year and have been picking them so the tree won't break. It's still quite young and wouldn't hold up to the stress. We've had to keep watering it as we have the same drought you do. A lot of people around here say they get apples only every other year, and that holds true for our trees too. (We lost one to wind last year.



It wouldn't have lived much longer any way. It just wasn't well grafted.


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## grapeman

There are some apple tree varieties that are basically biennially bearing, but most bear every year unless they were overcropped. This is why commercial orchards routinely thin the apples either with chemicals, hormones or by hand thinning. Droughts have a tendancy to thin the weak apples naturally, so if too many were left, you may actually get a better crop. Also the following year will also give a crop. You want a moderate amount of apples every year for best results and overall size.


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## NorthernWinos

These are our 5 & 6 year old apple trees.......Notice how dry it is here. 






This is a tree called Harlson Red, it is a heavy producer and true to it's nature is a bi-annual producer...it and some others only produce every other year due to it's breeding. This would be our most productive tree this year....if the fruit doesn't fall off due to the drought.Some years we have to prop up the lower branches due to the weight of the fruit....we have a hard time picking fruit to thin the crop....that is just to hard to do.






These are our assorted fruit trees we planted last year....apples, crab apples, Bali cherry and 3 kinds of big plums.....on my way to drag the hose out there...They had a good pruning last year from the deer.....the trees we planted this spring have been getting regular waterings and appear to be doing good despite the dryness and heat.







These are a couple of our baby HARDY wine grapes....they were tissue culture vines we got last year, they were so tiny ..just glad they wintered over...You'll notice the strawberries growing between the grape rows..been wanting to get rid of them, but they do produce every year and I get new plants from that patch...next year they die...just too messy and they are in the way.





LOUISE SWENSON





BALTIC AMBER

This is a Swenson Red wine grape, it is fairly tender here. I grow the vines in a fan pattern on heavy wire panel and lay them down in the winter...this is a 3 year old vine and is the first year it has had fruit.





It is so much fun to grow new things, tho this year I am embarassed to show any of our gardens the neglect and drought things are not pretty....


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## grapeman

Nothing to embarrased about.



For having a lack of rain, I think your stuff is looking pretty darned good. I especially like the 3 year old vine. Wish I had more like that but only have 5 Niagara and 8 Concords bearing well this year.


I updated pictures on the end of page 3, even included a stone special for Bilbo. Let's see an update on those vines in Maine, Bill.


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## grapeman

Well the weather has been great for a while now 80's and 90's with about an inch of rain per week. The only problem I'm having right now is Japanese beetles. They are new to me here-never even seen one here before. I was pulling leaves last night and found 25-30 on some of the upper leaves on the older vines. The new vines have a couple on them here and there. I put some Sevin on the upper leaves last night and only saw three there this AM. Most of the vines are making pretty good growth lately and are in good shape. Some of the Buffalo vines are above the top wire at 6 feet. WOW- they were planted six weeks ago, a foot per week average. At that rate, I may be able to train the 4-Arm Kniffen next year and may even allow a small crop. I'll see how they do this winter!


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## grapeman

I took some more pictures today. The weather has been full of thunder storms. The last bad one was Tuesday when the lightning blew up my phone next to me. Wednesday we had about an inch of rain in a half hour, but at least no close strikes. The rain is why it looks muddy in a couple pictures, it was. 


First a before and after picture - first July 10 - same shot July 28 a little over 2 weeks. The vines on the right are Buffalo 1 year rooted cuttings planted June 7 this year and on the left Leon Millot this years rooted cuttings. I also had to install the trellis for that row last week-they outgrew the stakes.












A shot of the Buffalo from the other direction- the top wire is almost 6 feet. 






Now the grapes on these vines....




Just kidding on that one- those are some Niagara grapes next to them.


Now some cuttings that rooted too slow to set out this year so I made a little nursery for them and will plant next spring.






How about a bean gone crazy- where is Jack?




Well maybe not- how about a wild multi-headed sunflower?




Finally, Salsa on the plant- almost ready - a variety of seet and hot peppers and tomatoes. 






The little ones on the left are Kung Pao peppers- nice quick heat, but doesn't overpower.

*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Everything is looking so great..




Can tell you put a lot time and love into your gardens.
What zone are you there????


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## grapeman

Thanks, it does take a lot of work to keep everything up. That's one of the reasons I grow all the stuff- for the exercise. Gotta get some exercise after sitting on my butt most of the day working on house plans at the computers. It's especially important since my treadmill got zapped in June. I've gotta get a new one soon. I've put on too much weight sampling all my good wines and beers this summer.


By the way NW it is on the cold side of Zone 5 here. Gotta pick my varieties carefully, but I think it is getting warmer in general. When I was a kid half a century ago, we would get to -25 F, sometimes colder. I had corn6 inches high get snowed on on June 4 one year. Frost would come Sept 15. Now it rarely gets below -15 F. Last few years the last frost comes very early May(this year April 28) and the first frost about October 15(last year October 25). Global warming or whatever- we'll take the warmer weather but could do without the severe weather.


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## grapeman

I went to a field day today for showing a field trial of 25 cold hardy varieties of grapes. If anyone is intersted I can post some pictures of them. They were planted last year and at this point aredoing very well. Almost all of the 300 plants are thriving. I will post one picture here to peak your interest.











*Edited by: appleman *


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## bilbo-in-maine

OK Richard, interest is piqued. A lake in the background (or very foggy valley) somewhere in NY... Show the rest of the photos now. Thanks.


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## grapeman

The previous picture is blurry. I should have gotten another one. The sun was apparently too bright. It is on Willsboro Point on Lake Champlain. The other side is Vermont in the background. What I was trying to show is how you keep deer out of a vineyard. Deer fencing 8 feet tall. Here are some pictures of a cold hardy trial going on at the Willsboro Research Farm conducted by a bunch of cooperating parties from Cornell, University of Minnesota, University of Vermont and others. There is no real data yet, since the vines were planted last year and we experienced the mildest winter in years. Here are some pictures of some of the varieties. I filled the digital camera card before I got all of them. They haven't been trained to any system yet, just tied up in a fan shape for now. The vines were so vigorous, they left some grapes on some of them this year. These were varieties deemed hardy enough to probably do well here in an extreme climate. 


Frontenac Gris









GR-7 from Cornell








LaCrescent








LaCrosse








Louise Swensen








Marechal Foch








Marquette(New from UM)








Ravat








Sabrevois








St. Pepin








St. Croix








Vignoles










Trellis System








I'm no photographer, but hopefully these will give you at least a glimpse of some varieties you haven't seen before. There were a number of other varieties I didn't have room for on the card and some that are still only numbered varieties. Actually Marquette is listed there as it's number. *Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Great photos and nice to see such vigorous plants....

Have heard of some of those varieties, some are rated as Zone 4, so not for this area....tho I do have some Zone 4 grapes that have survived 2 winters... I grow them in a fan shape and on a panel, then lay them down in the winter....Keeping them growing in a fan shape keeps young flexible vines, but I think production will suffer.....

Such fun trying to grow new plants...just a challenge...worth a try...

Going to try a few more varieties and some will be those you listed....Thanks!!!



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## OilnH2O

Very interesting since we seem to be in zone 5A -- I'm assuming that's the "warm side of 5" that you mention. I'm curious if you think these are modified by "lake affect" ?? A local winery is doing good with swenson, marechal foch... and maybe lacrosse.


Dave
Dave


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## grapeman

The site was chosen partially for it's location, partially because that was an available site(part of the Cornell research facilities). It has to feel some lake effects, being about 500 feet from the sixth largest fresh water lake in the country and has open space on all sides and is atop about 5-25% slopes. The Minnesota varieties are generally more cold tolerant than the Cornell varieties, although they are all good down to about -10-15F or lower.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Wow, all of my 5 varieties except Frontenac is represented there, and Marquette, which I have an order in for next spring too. It was really nice to see a photo of it, and it appeared to have the most fruit.

So, what's the deal with the trellising but no real training? It would be very useful to know how they, the experts, recommend training each variety. I'm still looking into how my 5 should best be trained and pruned.

Thanks for going to visit the site and posting the shots!


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## grapeman

Bill,
Frontenac is planted there and is doing as well as any of the others. I may have just overlooked the picture. I know they did have some bunches of grapes on them. I will check in the morning.


As far as training, they just haven't had enough labor to do it yet. Most labor is provided by volunteers. They have just let the vines grow to get well established and will begin training with the next season. This trial is for cold hardiness, not types of training. They are looking to learn more in the future from the planting, such as winemaking from each variety. As they begin bearing more, they are looking at bringing these varieties to Cornell for wine evaluation, since there are a number of varieties here not found at Geneva(NY).


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## grapeman

Bill,
Here are a couple pictures of Frontenac. I guess I hadn't put them in because they were closer up than others, not showing the plant overall. They did have a lot of grapes on them, and in the one picture you can even see where they had cut of at least one bunch. These plants do show some spotting on them, but were generally healthy.


I also put in one of plain old Niagara, which is hit or miss around here. Some years I get grapes, some years not many, but I have some that are 28 years old so they must at least survive around here. The pictures were taken at the site and generally they were the greenest and had the biggest grapes.


Frontenac






Frontenac








Niagara


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - Very good of you to go back for more shots! I'll bet you enjoy the opportunity, actually. Do you know if the researchers plan to publish this work at some point? Also, do you happen to know what the soil is like at the site? I think you said these were all 2 year old vines, and some had set so many clusters already!


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## grapeman

Bill,
I didn't need to go back to the site, I just hadn't put those pictures in before because they didn't show most of the vine like the others. We were told that the organization shares data as available, but they don't expect to have any available information for a while. I don't have the soil type, but it seems to be a gravelly soil. We were told the vines were planted in the black mulch. Before they got the deer fencing upthe deer punched all kinds of holes in the plastic. When they picked stones before planting the cover crop they put them on the holes. You can see some of them in the pictures. 


The vines were all planted May 2005 from whatever the suppliers could get them. They noted the variability in vigor is mostly from the quality of vines planted. Ones that were from tissue culture were smaller than the ones from larger bareroot vines. Plant quality if you want a quick start. They laid mulch like I said. 3 tons of compost applied the fall before planting and incorporated. There is drip irrigation available, but only applied once the year of establishment. Now that the vines are well established, the research results can start coming in. I'm going to keep an eye on this project, it's only about 30 miles away.


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## PolishWineP

This is some great information and pictures! Hope for those of us up near the border! Need something hardy to -35F.


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## grapeman

PWP,
For reds- Frontenac, Frontenac, Frontenac. Hardy to -35 deg. or so.
For White- LaCrescent or Frontenac Gris(makes a blush).


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## grapeman

Here's an update on the progress of the vines about a month later again(a little more now-didn't have time sooner). First an update on the little rooted cuttings, they have put on about 12-15 inches of growth this year so should be good to plant next year. Some varieties I set out from rooted cuttings did well and are up to 6 feet tall, while some varieties like Frontenac were slow to set roots and are bushy and about 2 feet tall. 








Sunflower gone wild- this came up from a bird dropping the seed.








Buffalo grapes- ones on right- most have 3 or four cordons a few feet long.








Catawba








Leon Millot from my rooted cuttings- up to 6 feet tall!










La Crosse on left St. Pepin on right










Niagara grapes










And finally some Gala Apples








Here's hoping you all have a nice warm late fall!





*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

WOW!!! Everything looks so good and well cared for....going have to change your name to 'grapeman'..




Think you must be much warmer than us to grow those varieties...I am envyous about that...



We are so resricted here to the very hardy varieties....but you got to try to grow with what survives....I am just test ploting a few vines of a few varieties to see what works best, then go from there.
You are going to have acres of grapes when you get all your cuttings set out....a winery in your future???
Your apples look good, and you said your deer are eating well....think you need some dogs running at large...


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## grapeman

The deer are indded eating well- don't plan on picking apples below 4-5 feet from ground. I have seen them get the apples off by shaking the branches even. I will have to set out a game camera to see when they feed. I have a couple really big set of tracks out here- must be at least a couple bucks eating. Normally I just havew does and fawns until breeding season. 


I am pushing things a little here with the Catawba and Buffalo, although my Uncle has grown both sucessfully here in the past. I also have a couple each of Reliance, Canadice, Glenora and Marquis - all seedless. Not sure how they will fare, but the ones that grow I will propagate further. I am protected here from the severe cold by the trees and they help deposit the snow and keep it here for ground cover where out in the more open fields it all blows away. Normally we get about 3-4 feet of snow cover at any one time. Several years ago we got six feet of snow piled up in March. 


Time will tell how all these vines do, but I'm having a blast with all of them and hoping I can make some "Fine Vine Wines" from them someday.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Very pretty scene! I'm continually amazed at the look of your soil there Richard. Do you cultivate frequently with a tractor? And not a single weed under the vines. All in all, how many vines of various varieties do you or will you have? Great job


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## grapeman

Bill,
I actually saw frost on the ground this morning- on the way to a building site not far from Lake Placid and Whiteface Mountain. The builder said it was down to 26 deg near his house. Fall is a comin'. As far as the vineyard being weed-free- Yes I do use my tractor with a five foot disc harrow between the rows(it actually covers six feet). That leaves me with a narrow two to three foot strip to hoe. I have hoed and harrowed I believe six times so far this year. If I do it when the weeds are less than three inches high, it takes me about six to eight hours for all of them. I either do a row or two a night or half each day over the weekend. I sit on my butt most of the time anymore doing thehouse planson the computer, so it gives me much needed exercise as I get older.


You ask about how many vines I have of each-

Alden- 12 vines (Table/Wine)
Canadice- 2 vines(Table-seedless)
Catawba- 27 vines(Juice/Wine/Table)
Chardonnel-40 vines(Wine)
Frontenac- 125 vines(Wine)
Glenora- 2 vines(Table-seedless)
LaCrosse-25 vines(Wine)
Leon Millot- 50 vines(Wine)
Marquis- 2 vines (Table-seedless)
Reliance- 2 vines(Table-seedless)
Pepin- 20 vines(Wine)
Total- 378 


Oh yeah, I forgot about 3 Buffalo that self rooted when I tipped some ends of vines and dropped them on the ground. Shows you how wet it was most of the summer when they will root on top of the ground by themselves from tissue culture!








Time will tell how many of these varieties do well around here and how many I end up with. I'm having fun working with the vines- I miss that about full-time gardening, but my half-century plus body feels it's agesome days. If I run out of ground at my place, I'm pretty sure my brother would let me plant a few thousand on his farm if I wanted.


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## OilnH2O

This is kinda off-topic, but I still read these postingseven thoughILOST myWHOLE VINYARD as you know...





BUTin deference to your comments about the deer we pulled out some venison steaks (muley) and put a herbrub on them -- even added some of Scott's 'mojo' to it -- and they were great!Accompanied by a nice merlot, too!


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - With that many vines, you could go the small commercial winery route. What are your plans, if you don't mind my asking? Once all those are producing full crops I should think you will potentially make more wine than the legal limit. Will you sell fruit to a nearby winery?

I'll bet Oiln wouldn't mind taking a few of your many cuttings from what you'll be pruning next winter.





You have an impressive vineyard - it is always a pleasure to see your photos!


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman, I am so impressed with your venture, wish you a mild winter and a good growing season next year...in no time you'll be building a winery.
26*F in August is not a good sign...I would say that you are having fall already. Hope your vines were spared the frosty morning...?
You have many apple trees too, what do you do with all those apples??? ....besides feeding the deer??? Do you press them and make wine???





OilnH2O...what happened to your vineyard???



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

NW, 
It is definitely cool here, but only got down to 49 degrees. The frost was about 35 miles away in the Adirondacks- a world unto itself. I'm clese to the lake, so it stays quite a bit milder. The cold weather there is not unusal. Some years they have frost every month of the year. I don't get a frost for another month to month and a half.


Bill, I hope to make some wine for myself and family and friends, but keep it in the limit. Also have to feed all the wildlife. Future plans-you never know.......
NW- I do press a lot of cider, give some apples away and make a generous amount of apple wine-great for cooking, etc.
OilnH2o lost his vineyard- actually he got some cuttings from a friend, but they were apparently winter killed vines. He tended them most of the summer in pots to root and start a little vineyard. Finally he concluded they were gonners. Check out Missoula Vinyards.Too sad








OilnH2o- if you want a few vines or cuttings in the spring- let me know- I can get you some cuttings or send a few of my surplus baby vines. I would be glad to help you out.*Edited by: appleman *


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## OilnH2O

NW -- sorry, missed your question! 


My sad story



is under the "Missoula Vinyard" thread -- we tried some spring cuttings from a friend's vinyard in B.C. and faithfully tended what turned out to be dead sticks for months! Lots of help from Appleman and others but the canes had been hit by late spring frost after bud-break (before I even got them) and little did we know, they were probably dead when we started!


But I LEARNED SO MUCH!



Don't worry -- I'll try again!



Appleman -- I may just take you up on the offer of cuttings -- I think I'm going to do the "preparation" this fall as several of you have recommended -- I have a small spot that I can put in about 6-8 vines in the corner of our yard. I bought the "Northern Winework" book recommended by NW -- a GREAT source of info! At this point, since I still consider my self a 'newbie' (in spite of what the avatar says!) if I could get some vines going for one batch a year, that would be a great start!*Edited by: OilnH2O *


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## grapeman

OilnH2O,
Just decide what type of vines you want and I can send you some cuttings towards spring. Red or White or both. If you want small plants, I've got Frontenac, Buffalo, Chardeonel and Niagara vines in my nursery to overwinter. Most of my vines will need pruning this winter/spring, so I can also send you any of those cuttings- see previous page(I think) for a list of the kinds I have growing. I hope we can get you a little vineyard growing soon.


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## NorthernWinos

OilnH2O....
What zone are you in??? 
Do you get a reliable snow cover for a natural mulch????
Do you get harsh drying winds in the winters???? 
A few things to consider when you get vines, but you saw that in the Northern Wineworks...I think it is a great book too...


The vineyard I went to yesterday 'captures' snow in the winter...he said last year he put rows of snow fence at various intervals throughout his vineyard to capture the snow for a mulch. He is pretty open there, tho surrounded with trees and has much drifting snow, so the snow fence helped him as we didn't get much snow last winter...
I use a snow fence near my rose garden and it sure protects the marginally hardy roses winter over, also the snow fence keeps our downstairs door from getting drifted in.....
SNOW..yuck!!! A nasty 4 letter word to me...I love spring, summer and fall a bit less....


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## OilnH2O

NW -- From what I can figure by looking at the USDA "hardiness maps" it's 5A -- from -15 to -20 and we do have a local winery having good luck with many of the grapes mentioned here -- marechal foch, swenson, etc. We don't have enough snow -- only a few inches at a time on average -- to serve as mulch, but about every 10 winters there is one that makes you realize why you have that 28" tracked snow-blower in the back of the garage -- YOU know -- with the electric start and headlamp for those BRRrrrr wintermornings!


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## grapeman

Well I guess I'm not too far behind the Finger Lakes region with ripening of my Concord and Niagara grapes. I see where they were 10.9 brix as of September 11. I tested mine tonight and they sit just shy of 10 brix each. We are expecting sunny weather this weekend and abut 80 degrees. That should develop them pretty well. The rain we have had has swollen the grapes quite a bit and hopefully it hasn't thrown the balance off too much. The berries are averaging over a half inch each- bigger than they normally get here when fully ripe. The cold nights and cloudy weather have slowed them down, which is alright because they have been maturing ahead of usual. Will post some pictures when they are close to picking.


Can't wait for some of the new vines to bear in the future. For now I will have to be content with the grapes I have and as much apple cider/wine as I want to make. Some varieties are really loaded, but most are less than optimal in quality- albeit sweet.


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## grapeman

I seem to have made a good find this evening. My brother-in-law called last night and said he had some black grapes growing in a tree and over a bank and I could have the grapes if I wanted. I hustled right up this evening to see what they were figuring they were Concords unteded since he bought the place about 5 years ago. One look at the vine and I knew it wasn't. It looks like it is a cross between a native grape and some unknown tame vine. One taste and I knew I have to make some wine from it. It is both sweet and tart at the same time. It has definite cherry flavor and more than a hint of plum. The bunches that were in the open were large for that type of vine weighing almost a half pound apiece. The juice is very red. It reminds me of a Marechal Foch or Leon Millot, only sweeter with more flavor. It is apparently pretty disease resistant, since it has never been sprayed yet has a huge crop. 





I am going to try a test batch or two of wine(I picke 50 pounds tonight and will go back with a ladder later for another). If it turns out as good as I think, I will be volunteering to prune his vine for him. Naturally I will have to cart away the prunings



. A few of them may end up rooting accidentally for trial in the vineyard.


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## NorthernWinos

What a great score....Will you run them through your press???How exciting!!! Will be watching this post for photos!!!!




You said they were very dark....and an older vine.....could they be Fredonia??? They say those are blue/black. large clusters, earlier than Concord and can cover an arbor in a year with vines 15-20 feet long.....I tried one and it died one winter...




Hope you get some growing off of the "trimin's"..



Good Luck!!

http://www.aaronscanna-amaryllis.com/bunchgrapes/fredonia.html*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

Wino,
I don't believe the vine was planted- unless you count a bird. The placement isn't right. Growing in a tree on a steep bank a ways away from the house. It definitely has a lot going for it though, just the right acid, unbelievable flavors and when I destemmed, cleaned and crushed them I got about 35 pounds. I added water to get 3 gallons going(not much) and the SG was at 1.065 - sugared to 1.085 and added pectic enzyme and nutrient. Just for that authentic crushing feel, I used my bare feet - and yes, they did turn very purple(but it came right off).


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## NorthernWinos

Did you really use your feet to press those grapes????Like in a tub????And no pictures....shame on you!!!!




I see people are freezing grapes then using them for wine...I bet the freezing relly breaks them down to mush....wonder if feezing them changes the flavor...???? 
No flavor like fresh grapes and feet tho....


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## grapeman

Here is a picture of the 3 gallon batch of the wine made from the grapes above. It looks and smells great. I went back yesterday and got another 3 gallon batch started.


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## NorthernWinos

That looks great....all your wines are looking fabulous....
Did you figure out what variety of grapes they were???? Like you said the vine was probably seeded by a bird roosting in the tree.... 
We had a huge Cottonwood tree near our house, it uprooted in a bad wind storm in 2001...under it is growing many of the Chokecherry trees we picked fruit from this summer...also noticed a tree with different colored leaves last spring...I flagged it and trimmed out some brush from around it....this spring it bloomed bright red/pink blossoms...it was exactly like the neighbors Flowering Crabapple trees....I call it 'Emma's Tree' as she died a few weeks before this volunteer bloomed.....
So...truely...the best things in life are free....


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## grapeman

I haven't figured out what variety it is yet. My brother in law will ask the people they bought the place from if they planted it or not. It seems to be a lot Like Marechal Foch, and a lot of those are grown about 25-30 mile north in Quebec. May have come from there. I will propagate some cuttings next spring so I can control the growh and should be able to tell more then.


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## Wade E

That looks like a nice batch going.


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## grapeman

I thought some of the others would be interested in this:


reprinted from: CCE_ Northeast Fruitlet_, Vol. 8 No. 10 , September, 2006


On Saturday, September 23, a working field session was held at the Cornell Baker Farm in Willsboro, NY, so that participants could jointly view, taste, and discuss the first grapes of the Willsboro Wine Grape Trial. It was not the intent to crop these vines in 2006 but rather to allow the vines to further establish themselves in preparation for full cropping in 2007. However, we retained enough crop for comparative observation.

Despite the showers, we harvested the equivalent of one complete replication of vines and then retired to a farm porch to taste each and share initial impressions about the grapes. Ten volunteers assisted in the effort, and afterwards, we cleared off all the remaining grapes and divvied-up the bounty among the "help". The listing below provides a brix value for each grape indicating where their sugar levels stood relative to one another at this time. It is anticipated that full cropping will begin in 2007, and so very little fruit will be available for take-home purposes, as much of it - particularly vines of keen interest - will be used for controlled evaluation purposes and hopefully, test wine batches.

Single-Berry Brix Reading of Wine-Grapes in Willsboro Cold-Hardy Wine Grape Trial, September 23, 2006.

Baco Noir 21.2 Frontenac Gris 24.5 Leon Millot 20.0 NY 73.136.17 15.0 Ravat 3415.0


Cayuga White 19.0 GR 7 21.2 Louise Swenson 19.4 NY 76.844.24 18.7 Sabrevois >20.0


Edelweiss<X-TAB> </X-TAB>19.2<X-TAB> </X-TAB>LaCresent<X-TAB> </X-TAB>23.2<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Marechal Foch<X-TAB> </X-TAB>22.6<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Niagara<X-TAB> </X-TAB>17.0<X-TAB> </X-TAB>St Croix<X-TAB> </X-TAB>20.0

ES 6-16-30<X-TAB> </X-TAB>22.5<X-TAB> </X-TAB>LaCrosse<X-TAB> </X-TAB>20.0<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Marquette (MN 1211)<X-TAB> </X-TAB>25.8<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Petiteamie<X-TAB> </X-TAB>19.3<X-TAB> </X-TAB>St Pepin<X-TAB> </X-TAB>18.2

Frontenac<X-TAB> </X-TAB>23.0<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Landot 4511 20.2<X-TAB> </X-TAB>MN 1200<X-TAB> </X-TAB>24.0<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Prarie Star<X-TAB> </X-TAB>22.8<X-TAB> </X-TAB>Vignoles<X-TAB> </X-TAB>20.0


As to "Ravat 34?" it appears we have a misidentified vine that we are attempting to identify. Stay tuned.

This Cornell Extension trial is supported by the growers, and counties of CCE's NE NY Commercial Fruit Program, The NY Farm Viability Institute, the Northern NY Ag Development Program, and other interested parties.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Thanks Richard, I'm encouraged to see most of my varieties hitting at least 20 brix (except St. Pepin) by late September at second year, and Marquette at almost 26! Almost too high.


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## grapeman

The End of growing season arrived here October 12, and 13 and 14. We've had 3 days now with temps down to 28 degrees. Most of the vines leaves are burned now, but the Frontenac vines actually are still pretty green.



Time for them all to sleep now until spring. At least we aren't too close to Buffalo and their 2 feet of snow!


I've had some helpers also start some fall pruning(I'd just as soon wait until late winter to do it myself). They are leaving their tell-tale hoof marks in the soil and clipped vine ends. As long as they don't get carried away, it shouldn't hurt. The parts they are eating are to thin and green to make it through winter here anyway.


All in all, the vines look in great shape after their first growing season.




How is everybodies elses doing?


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## NorthernWinos

Hope those deer don't do too much damage...Know that you have too many vines to throw deer/bird netting over them...
Try tying some white plastic grocery bags to the vines....the fluttering of the bags in the breeze does deter the deer a bit...it is suppose to be like their distress alert of their flashing white tails....it kept them form eating most of my new yard trees last year....as well they had started rubbing their horns on the young trees...it did slow down their activities....
However...It looks like you are living near a land fill...
A 30.06 is the best bet!!!!


We had 4 days of below freezing temps last week, as well as freezing rain, sleet, ice and a light dusting of wet snow...It was in the 50's today.... Still had cabbages and Brussels Sprouts in the garden, as well as potatoes and carrots....Got it all out yesteday....The grapes are looking pretty sad...leaves are falling....



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## bilbo-in-maine

Not quite so dire here near the coast. There have been two nights below freezing. As you said Richard, the Frontenac seem to weather that cold the best, although the very tips of shoots and the young leaves there took it on the chin - they've had it. The other varieties look worse. Dead new leaves, shriveled and dried older leaves, maybe 10% dropped. At the beginning of September I thought I might have powdery mildew starting on a few of the Frontenac, but now I just don't know. It didn't progress and spread beyond the few leaves where grey lesions formed, so I'd like to think that it was just early seasonal deterioration. No deer problems so far, hopefully thanks to the obnoxious Irish Spring soap dangling next to each vine. It seems to have kept them away from other new plantings which the deer were eating early in the summer. Seems to work. Its good to hear from you guys and be able to picture your vines and gardens as, like mine, they begin to end the season.
Bill


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## NorthernWinos

Here is a shot of the vines..before the cold snap...







I had seen a show on vineyards from California...some place a rose bush at the end of each row...they are susceptible to the same fungus as grapes, and will show the signs sooner than the vines...unfortunatly...the roses I put to are disease resisitant...so show no signs of leaf spot, molds, etc....Look pretty tho.


Have been reading the book....'From Vines to Wines' by Jeff Cox....he said in the fall to plant a grassy annual cover crop between the rows [won't the deer like that???] Also, to let the weeds grow up under the vines....the grasses and weeds are suppose to keep the sun from warming the soil in early spring and break dormancy before the last frost....Interesting book...worth getting if you don't already have it...


Got holes dug and filled with compost where vines had died last winter....will put some of this years cuttings there first thing in the spring...will plant out the more disease resistant varieties [if they make it through the coming winter]

Did get the Raspberries all trimmed on one of the nicer days this past week....so, the fall gardening is coming to a screeching hault...time to let the Earth rest...



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

NW,
I like your suggestion for deterring the deer- the 30-06. I can put soap out or bags, but after feeding them all season, it's turn around time. Muzzleloading season began Oct 14 here - deer of either sex. There is one lessdoe after this afternoon to multiply next year thanks to my .50 cal muzzleloader. Big deer for a doe probably about 150 pounds field dressed. I'll see pretty soon if it has any apple or grape overtones. I'll have to pick out a nice wine to go with some venison.







Regular season begins this Saturday, see if I can double up this year(Only bucks here for regular season).


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## grapeman

Well, I got the venison back from the butcher this afternoon. I fried up some butterfly chops in some mushrooms, peppers and onions. Added some Australian Cabernet Shiraz and a Kung Pow pepper with seeds. It was certainly delicious and had a hint of apple and grape in it.



It turned out really tender. I had a nice couple glasses of the Australian Cab Shiraz with it at dinner. The whole family loved it. Sorry no pictures.


I passed on a small buck this morning- first day of rifle season-bucks only. I was in the same spot in the orchard I first saw the deer I shot the other day. Maybe tomorrow I will find a bigger one.


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## Wade E

where are the pcs of this meal this sounds extrordinary appleman!


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## grapeman

Northern Winos
I'm continuing on with thinning my vineyard out- of four-legged pests that is. The wind was blowing about 40 miles an hour today, but I went out to patrol the vineyard and orchard anyway. I leveled the .308 on a nice six point buck and it dropped like a rock. I went over to check on it and it was still moving on the ground some. Imagine my disbelief when it got to it's feet and ran off. I'm semi-heartbroken as I cannot locate it anywhere. It will feed the coyotes and ravens, but I would rather feed on it after it fed on my produce all season. Maybe I can find it tomorrow. At least it won't be feeding on the vines anymore.


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## NorthernWinos

Don't you just feel sick when you loose a wounded deer.....We searched high and low in the dark last fall...Jim found the bones this summer....as he was driving the tractor and brush-hog through the woods cleaning his trails...he was looking at the scattered bones and looked forward to see the horn rotating on the front tire....yes it went through the tire....We find many [shed] horns in tractor tires....usually in the spring with the first pass through the fields....
Our deer season opens next Sat. morning...there was a does only season a couple weeks ago, but we didn't partake....this year we can get one buck and buy permits for up to 5 does....guess the DNR wants to thin out the population....
Jim has finished combining the corn and was shredding stalks today...the deer kind of panic when their 'feed-plot' [our crops] get harvested....The deer are very active now...he saw many today out in the Fields and pasture....
Hope your season goes good...when we loose a deer we also think the scavengers will feast....and....the deer are one thing that does grow on trees....there is always another one....Good Luck Appleman....you feed them...you eat them!!!!


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## grapeman

Yes Nw I do feel sick about losing this one. It is the first one I have wounded and didn't finish off in many years. I should have finished it off when I saw it moving, but hesitated thinking it was mortally wounded. I found pieces of lung and blood with bubbles, but the rain and snow was coming down pretty hard and washed the blood trail away. There were about six deer in the group when I shot the buck and they scattered. I couldn't tell what set of tracks belonged to the buck. I was thinking of bringing in a friend with hounds, but I don't like bringing others in the area. I made the mistake of telling a friend about some coons we had raised. He said- " I need some coons to train my hounds" We never saw our coons again!


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## NorthernWinos

You got snow??????Ours will come tomorrow night...




Did you get all your apples and grapes picked...or are you going for ice-wine????*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

Everything is picked and stored away. I did leave some of the apples on the trees that were scabby as a result of all the rains this year. They are dropping and the deer are feeding on them. The vines have gone dormant for the year and all the leaves have dropped now. Last week we didn't get any snow right here in the valley, but ther was 8-12 inches a few miles away. Today the rain and snow kept falling, but no accumulation here. Hope you guys have a great winter there and the farm livestock winters well.


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## NorthernWinos

We don't have livestock anymore....just 2 horses, 2 dogs and 2 cats, 3 fish....that's enough chores for me...


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## grapeman

Well NW, 
I am continuing to thin my grape pruners. Dropped my buck between the first two rows of grapes. Not sure if he was after the vines or after the gals after the vines. The .308 did the trick this time. I didn't hesitate this time to finish it off. It was in better shape than the doe was- just enough fat to make it tender. I look forward to this one- they weren't heavy in the rut yet. Hope your hubby gets his quota this year- like you said- better than geese.


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## NorthernWinos

appleman said:


> Well NW,
> I am continuing to thin my grape pruners. Dropped my buck between the first two rows of grapes. Not sure if he was after the vines or after the gals after the vines. The .308 did the trick this time. I didn't hesitate this time to finish it off. It was in better shape than the doe was- just enough fat to make it tender. I look forward to this one- they weren't heavy in the rut yet. Hope your hubby gets his quota this year- like you said- better than geese.



Glad you got your deer already...Your season is sure early out there. Our season starts this Sat, usually it is a little later than that....guess full rut around here is Nov. 15....Guess they figure harvesting them in full rut gives them that wild taste.

This summer water holes were pretty dry around here, our livestock/wildlife pit had water and was a very popular spot for deer and bear...Now we have a dusting of snow and Jim said he has lots of tracks in the woods...he is starting to get stoked...guns are out, hunting clothes hanging around....no guests from California this year, so will be pretty quiet and peaceful.

I prefer the young deer, nice and tender and not so gamey.....But they are all grain fed...soybeans, corn and alfalfa ...and all are included in the 3 food groups....

3 FOOD GROUPS IN THIS PART OF THE COUNTRY

1- BUCKS
2- DOES
3- FAWNS


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## grapeman

Yes they have early seasons here. Bow season(which I don't do) starts in September and runs until Regular season which started October 19th. Muzzleloading-the week preceeding Regular season. Then the Regular season(bucks only) which last until early December. And then there is a late Muzzleloading season for some areas. Much of the Northern Zone is VERY remote, so the season is extended like that. I live on the periphery area so it is much less remote, but we still have those same seasons. No doe tags here(except archery and muzzleloading). The DEC guy inspected the deer today at the local butcher. He asked if I wanted it aged and I said- "It's about a year and a half" He aged it at one year and six months. I thought that was a year and a half!






He took the skull to test for CWD(none up here yet and I hope we never get it). He was aging and testing bears. They had 3 fairly small ones there- the biggest was only a 200 pound plus male black.


I like your three food groups, but have to refrain the number three due to family Bambi pressures(my sisters).


----------



## NorthernWinos

Another one bites the dust....







This one appears to have died with a smile on his face....He was not molesting our yard trees and fruits...but was out in our crops...

I cut it up today...6 hours...including setup and cleanup...Lots of butterfly loin steaks, butterfly steaks, Ka-Bob meat...stew/goulosh/sweet & sour meat, stir fry meat, 2 roasts and trim...

Need one more to top off the freezers....


----------



## Wade E

I'll be over for dinner tommorow. Do you make any jerky. My friend use
to make it every year and I made sure I was around for that , it was
the best jerky I have ever had.


----------



## NorthernWinos

I do make jerky with venison hamburger and a jerky press....I have never done the meat strip jerky, but have recipes...
Right now I have some Moose and Caribou hamburger [from friends] and some local Buffalo hambuger...I am planning to make some jerky with some of that...tho the meat makes great hamburgers too.


----------



## grapeman

Nice buck NW. He must have just done what God set him on this earth to do with a smile like that!






Looks like you fed that one well! Now you guys can feed on him- lots of great meals there. 


I watched 27 Thanksgiving dinners go by yesterday in the vineyard. Went out with the shotgun, but they left before I got there.


----------



## NorthernWinos

appleman said:


> Nice buck NW. He must have just done what God set him on this earth to do with a smile like that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, he was following a couple good looking ladies [does] and trying to charm them with that smile....


----------



## Wade E

Sounds like you should host a hamburger tasting party.



I'll bring the A-1
*Edited by: wadewade *


----------



## grapeman

Well mid-winter is here and so far hasn't been bad. Coldest temp so far -9F last week. Only about a foot of snow so far this winter. The temps have been a roller-coaster so far. It will be intersting to see how the young vines fare through their first winter. 


Pruning season will be here in a couple months so I thought I would post a few before pictures.































*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Those are looking good...I wouldn't prune anything on those...at least till I see what has growth on them.....then just prune off the dead ends....They look real good as-is.


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## Wade E

Looking good Appleman. Wish I had the land or the right colored thumb to do that!


----------



## OilnH2O

Those look great, Rich! Now when you prune those "dead" ones like NW suggested, don't save them for me! I've "been there...etc."


Dave


----------



## grapeman

Dave I'm sure I will be pruning off some stuff that isn't dead. Also I do have some vines that I had in the nursery this last year that didn't root quickly. I'm sure I wouldn't miss a few of those. I have another 100 vines coming this spring and 200 more cuttings to root from Double A. Hoping the rest of the winter isn't bad- I've gotten used to the warm weather!


----------



## Wade E

Thats a lot of vines Ap! You planning on starting your own winery or maybe start selling grapes?


----------



## grapeman

Wade I am keeping my options open at this point. I have access to my brother's produce stand operation that I began in 1974. A lot depends on how well things do here growing. I'm in it for the enjoyment. If there is a surplus I will market through the stand. I won't say never to the winery, but it would be small if at all.


----------



## NorthernWinos

As the vineyard expands we will call you Vineman...or Grapeman ...or????


----------



## grapeman

NW how about"grappleman" or "tendrils" or .......


----------



## NorthernWinos

By next summer and the vines grow....Grappleman will work...


----------



## grapeman

Now that's a play on words if I ever heardone. At first I thought you meant I could use the name grappleman and then I said - No. With all those grape vines to tend, Grappleman will WORK!


----------



## grapeman

I got my first shipment of cuttings from Double A today. I got 50 Traminette and 50 Corot Noir cuttings. I had rigged up a spot to callus them. I filled 2 trays with the zipsets and filled them with potting soil. Placed that on a 4 foot folding table(plastic topped) and put one of the oil filled heaters under it. I will monitor the soil tem to try to maintain 80-85 degrees. Hoping they root well. The Corot Noir grapes are a new variety from Cornell and Double A was out of supply last summer when I ordered them. They did have cuttings, so I snatched up 50 of them. They are fairly hardy and should make a nice addition to the vineyard. The Traminettes will make a nice white addition. To be coninued...........


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

First shipment makes it sound like there will be a second or morel. Do you have the space available, or will you be clearing and stumping? The size of your vineyard is getting impressive, I have to admit! You must be having fun by now





I'll be expanding by only 8 Marquette vines and then will be max'ed out. But we just started keeping bees, so I don't think I will be short of outside work with the small orchard we planted, the garden all summer, the vines and hopefully the bees to pollinate everything. Home produced honey sounds very good too.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Sounds good guys.....Sure getting anxious to get out and see how things wintered over....Will be a long time before any signs of life around here.


----------



## grapeman

You are right Bill. I am getting more in. The first shipment was cuttings only. Later I am getting in 100 more year old bare root vines. 25 Noiret, 25 Sabrevois, 25 GR-7, and 25 Steuben. I am also going to take some cuttings when I prune this year and root them. If they get large enough, I will plant them out in the vineyard this year, if not I will plant them next year. Doing things on a shoestring budget so I have to take it slow. 


If I run out of space at my place(have room for a couple hundred more), I have two backup sites on the farm here. I'm trying to keep things fairly centralized so I can compare for vigor, hardiness and suitability for intended purpose(wine, table, juice).


Yes, I am having fun


----------



## grapeman

I went down today to the Wilsboro Research Cold Hardy Grape trial site and helped prune. Most of the vines look very well with minimal bud damage to most varieties. The two that haven't fared well are Cayuga White and Ravatt. The low for the winter was -11F. Going back tomorrow to help finish pruning and we will be weighing clippings. 


Interesting to see many of the same varieties I am growing also. We only had an inch of slush to work in today, I still have 6 inches at home from yesterday. Yuck. Will report more later as they get to budbreak and beyond.


----------



## rgecaprock

Apple,


When you get your vineyard producing I'll come and work for wine!!!






If it ever stops snowing!!!!




Ramona


----------



## grapeman

Sounds good Ramona- especially the part about it quitting snowing. Last I heard, they say we could get up to 2 feet of snow on Sunday and Monday!!!!!!! Good Lord I hpe not! The latest snow I remember was about June 5 one year when we had 4 inches. It didn't freeze anything and was gone in a day. Normally the snow is gone by now, but we quite often get at least a trace about tax day.


----------



## grapeman

Spring has definitely sprung around here now. A couple days ago it was windy and mid 50's. Today it was 86 and sunny again. I've got the spot ready for some of the little vines I planted in a little nursery last year to root better. I marked out the locations for the Niagara and Buffalo vines. I dug the Niagara vines tonight and put in a tub of water for rehydrating the roots well. They aren't as big as the bareroot from Double A Nurseries, but they are well rooted. I will get some pictures tomorrow night before I plant them. Here is a picture from last year first.


----------



## jobe05

I can't beleive how sandy your soil is for being in upstate NY........... 


Are you sure you don't live in Tampa or Miami????? 


Does your wife keep you drunk so you won't know where you are?????


I grew up near Onieda lake (south side) and the land all throughout that area is black soil or muck lands. Hard to beleive theres that much sand in NY. 


Your vines look awesome....... Let me know when your ready to dig them up and throw them on the compost pile, I sneek up (down) and get a few.




EDIT: The real killer is that there isn't a weed to be seen in that garden..... sigh,.................*Edited by: jobe05 *


----------



## grapeman

Jobe, most of the farm has much heavier soil, with subsequent less ideal drainage. That's part of the reason I chose the site for the vines. I want well drained soil to help reduce winter heaving damage. Most all varieties of vines look good after the winter. The ones puching buds the lest are the Chardonel. One observation I have is that a lot of wood hadn't hardened well enough before the fall freezes. The vines are all alive, but I may need to prune back further. Time will tell. 


Most of the cleaning up I am doing has to do with downed trees the last couple years from wind and snow. I've gotta clean up the mess and am filling in with vines.


----------



## Wade E

Looks awesome Appleman, when are you coming down to plant my vineyard?


----------



## Waldo

Great looking vines appleman. The fruits of your labor will be quite rewarding.


----------



## NorthernWinos

I bet they root real nice in the sand and easy to dig....They look great. 


You sure are going to have a lot of grapes someday.....You've got a great vision there...congratulations.


Looking forward to more photos.


I lost some vines this past winter....One older tender vine [Kay Gray]broke off when I stood it back up this spring...It had heavy wood and didn't like being laid down and and covered with straw for the winter....so far no growth from the root. I am suppose to keep younger vines on the wire panels to keep them more pliable for bending in the fall.


Also theoldest Swenson Red vine that produced so heavily last year has no signs of life yet...still hoping...the young ones are leafing out.


Planted out some rooted cuttings from last year as replacements....also planted some of those tinyvines between the big ones....so will have fuller rows....You guys all have your vines closer together than I did.


I have to stick to the more hardy vines up here on de-tundra.....This is justmy test plot and I am finding out what to plant more of. The Edelweiss is doing the best of the tender vines...actually it is semi-hardy. The Candice wintered over...amazing. All the hardy vines made it with not much tip die back.


Like starting over again.




*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## grapeman

appleman said:


> Spring has definitely sprung around here now. A couple days ago it was windy and mid 50's. Today it was 86 and sunny again. I've got the spot ready for some of the little vines I planted in a little nursery last year to root better. I marked out the locations for the Niagara and Buffalo vines. I dug the Niagara vines tonight and put in a tub of water for rehydrating the roots well. They aren't as big as the bareroot from Double A Nurseries, but they are well rooted. I will get some pictures tomorrow night before I plant them. Here is a picture from last year first.




Finally I can post the picture before planting these above vines-remember the picture above is from last year, the following is as budbreak arrived. I had computer problems the camera was tied to, thus the delay.
















And a Double A from last year to compare to.












Here are a few pictures from one of the smaller orchards in Peru NY. This is a fairly small block just beginning bloom. Notice the ample supply of Dandelion Wine.




















The last picture is a bad one- those are trees in the background and the field in the front is prepared for tile drainage and replant next year. There are about 2 million bushels of apples grown within 15 miles of my place.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Wade E

Very nice apple.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Thats a lot of apples....are they pressed for cider??? Do you make a lot of apple wine and cider???? Pies????


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## grapeman

NW, That isn't my orchard. I no longer have a lot of apples- only about 100 tree nowdays. It's just one of the smaller orchards nearby. Some of them are in the 1000 acre range, that one only a few hundred.


----------



## grapeman

Well I feel like a kid in a candy store! The lady in the brown shorts just left a big box at my place!






Contents
25- Noiret
25-Sabrevois
25-GR-7
25 Steuben
25-Traminette
25-Corot Noir
25-St Croix
25-Cabernet Franc on 3309


My latest babies from Double A Vineyards


We are getting a few showers today. I'm planting the Frontenac I dug up last night and soaked overnight and will plant these newest additions ASAP in the next few days.


Here's what they look like when they arrive. More later. For reference the box is about 4 feet long.



















*Edited by: appleman *


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## Wade E

Nice, youll have that land filled soon the way your going.


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## NorthernWinos

Sorry to bother you when you should be busy...but are they plants or rooted cuttings....??


WOW!!!!! You are going to have some vineyard really soon. Very impressive...Post as many photos as you have time for...


I feel so inadequate with my 45+ vines...


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## grapeman

The vines that came today are 1 year bare root plants. I got all the 1yr-1 vines I could this year instead of the 1yr-X since they are so big they require a 2-3 foot hole and I'm digging them in by hand this year.


The Frontenac were the ones I started last yearas rooted cuttings and it was too dry by the time they got big enough to set out. I got the Frontenacall planted this evening -48 of them with 2 extra small ones I'm going to replant in the nursery. It was sprinkling the whole time I was planting, so they enjoyed that. Tomorrow it is supposed to rain 1-2 inches. We can use it with only a quarter inch of rain so far this month. If it doesn't rain too much tomorrow evening, I will start on planting those 200 vines that came today.


----------



## Wade E

Thats a lot of vines there apple!!!!!!!!


----------



## NorthernWinos

Rain...you lucky guy.....we have 20% chance this weekend...that's as good as no chance around here.


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## grapeman

Well I managed to get in the 25 Cabernet Franc vines this evening in a drizzling rain. I was too wet to start another variety, plus the 100 foot tape measure was getting pretty muddy. I left a five gallon bucket empty outside where I planted the Frontenac last evening. There was 3 inches of rain in that bucket tonight. The spot where I got it ready to plant the new vines is downright muddy this evening. I put the Cab Francs on the drier side for better winter drainage since they may - butprobably won't live and ripen around here.


So NW , rain- yes we were lucky. Now if it doesn't pull another season like last year and rain for two months in excess. Sorry no pictures tonight- too rainy outside. 
Oh- I checked on the nesting turkey. They are even harder to spot when wet. Even though I knew she was there, I had a hard time picking her out from 10 feet away!


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## grapeman

I'm done planting grapes for this year in the vineyard! Hurayyyy! It went a lot easier last year with the little skid steer post auger. I dug the holes by hand this year- all 300 or so of them. The Irish Banjo is effective, but hard on an old-timer. It went pretty good in the sandy ground, but 200 of them went in a heavier soil with some gravely spots. The rain came just about perfect this year so far. It was getting pretty dry, but just as I started planting we got the 3 inches of rain. After a days delay planting resumed. As I finished up this afternoon, it started raining again and we will have showers overnight and then start warming up.


Growth so far on last years vines has been a little sluggish. The Lacrosse are making good progress and the leaves are opening. The rest are from buds pushing to 1 inch buds. As they grow more I will post some pictures. I will also get some of the newer vines. Next up- trellising........... after I get the garden planted.


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## NorthernWinos

You lucky guy...your crop planted after a nice rain and more rain to settle in the plants.....it can't get any better than that.


Still no rain here...promises is all we get. It had been in the high 80's with strong winds...it just whipped many plants, damaged many leaves on trees, shrubs, fruits and vegetables....dirt drifting off the fields...pretty depressing.


The temp had dropped like a bomb the past 2 days as well the wind has subsided.....kind of a nice break..everything and everybody breathes better...actually chilly.


Tomorrow the heat returns for a day with chances of thunder storms, then a cooling trend...such a roller coaster. Jim quit planting his soybeans for a few days, the remaining fields are very sandy and he needs rain to firm up the seed bed as it is just fluffy...


So...send some rain our way...we desperately need it...too early in the year to be this dry.


Tomorrow has hope.


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## Wade E

Ill send some rain your way NW! I have nothing growing except grass and we just keep getting rain and I cant even mow it.


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## OilnH2O

Rich, I almost feel IRISH with my banjo! The posts are 45 minutes to an hour for every 2 feet (with more digging bar than PH digger) and it's 10 minutes just to get 6-8 inches for the vines! Lots of cobbles and rocks!
Can't wait to see more pic's of yours!


Dave


----------



## grapeman

NW Here's hoping you get some much needed rains for all the crops. It's discouraging when you just can't get any rains and everybody around you is getting pounded.


Dave, I thought you were in Montana not Moon-tana



That's a lot of work there. It will make the grapes taste that much sweeter when they get ready. Sounds like you could use the training method I saw on television one day. They were training the grapes on the ground, making them grow in circles on themselves. Then they would mound a pile of rocks near it to protect them from the wind. Percevere ther buddy.


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## NorthernWinos

Woke up this morning to thunder, got 11/100th's of an inch...we are rain gauge monitors for the county for this township...so have a good rain gauge and keep records to sent to the state...the end of March we got 1.68", April 1.14" and so far this month, including today .60"...so we sure are lacking in moisture.


We have a 70% chance for thunder storms for the next couple of days...keeping our fingers crossed.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Thanks for refreshing my memory about the vineyard on Page 5 of this your vineyard Topic...I like seeing the fan shape trellising sysytem... 


I am going to try that on my newly planted vines....after loosing my old vines 2 winters ago due to the trunk splitting I am going to try having more than one trunk and always have a young one growing from the base. I had read in the book Northern Wineworks to always have a young vine coming from the base.


Old split vines...









Was a heart breaker to pull out those old vines this spring...but have my young cuttings set out and have a new start. 


I planted one row to a more disease resistant variety [Beta] and the other to the more hardy variety [Valiant]...both are like a Concord grape....will be fun to watch them grow again.....Some of the vines had regrown last year from the roots, those are looking pretty good with little grapes on them.


Nice that you went back to that vineyard for another look. Thanks again for Posting that.....Your vineyard has come a long way since Page 1.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Update.....today we woke to 44 degree temps, by noon it was 78* and muggy...this evening we had a real gully washer...over an inch of rain, quite a bit of hail and strong winds...Heavy rains predicted tonight and tomorrow and the next day.....Cheers!!!! 






*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## Wade E

I told you I was sending some rain your way, what you didnt believe me?


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Nice rains all over Princess land these few days ! Next will be a boom in the State Bird!


----------



## Wade E




----------



## grapeman

Sweet dealNW, an inch of rain! I bet there was dancing at your farm last night! You hate to see gully washers, but when you need it so bad you take it any way you can get it. I saw on the maps yesterday rain was headed that way and held a quiet thought in my heart that it would send you some tears from the heavens. I'm glad Wade got them to follow through to you!


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## NorthernWinos

Thank God and Thanks Guys...it was great...maybe more today and tomorrow.


----------



## chevyguy65

Jw 


Only 50% life size picture? 


show them how big we grow em in the midwest!


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## NorthernWinos

Well...after a very hot dry spell and then that cloud burst and gully washer we have been getting cold rains everyday....some days just a trace and up to 1/4" on one more occasion...might pour again tomorrow...[usually does on Holiday weekends]....Sunday and Monday might be nice...then more rain.....


Just what the planted crops needed....I still need to plant the vine crops..squash, melons and cukes...as well I haven't set out the tomato and pepper plants yet...and now it's too muddy.....complain...complain...


The lawn is growing like crazy...a good sign that everything is growing...my hubby's field corn is up and the soybeans are popping....Rain is good!!!!


----------



## grapeman

I'm glad to hear you have gotten enough rain to wet things down good. Do you want me to slow the rain down yet? I hope it doesn't get too wet now. It's beautiful here this AM after almost hitting 100 yesterday- sunny with expected high about 74-76. 


The grapes are beginning to grow like crazy. I'm still impressed with the LaCrosse grape vines. If they do this every year, keeping the number of clusters to a reasonable amount could be a challenge. The primary, secondary and tertiary buds are all growing on them and each one has either one or two(so far) clusters of buds. Like I said some of them have 30-50 clusters of buds. I am trying to balance some of the growth while they are still young so I will need a lot of cluster removal.


I needed to dust the grapes with Sevin Thursday evening. The Steely Bettles(Flea Beetles) had gotten horrendous. I'm beginning to hoe the vines to keep the weeds down to a manageable size.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Bugs...I better look...



maybe I don't have enough grapes to attract any. 


I have been spraying the strawberry flowers for the dreaded Tarnished Plant Bug...they attack the flowers and cause distorted seedy fruits....so got to do this spraying as I have always had a problem with that...last year I sprayed a little bit and it sure helped...this year will do it regularly.


Oh...and 1-2 inches of rain predicted for today...then no rain till Tuesday....now the weather man seems to keep his promises.*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## grapeman

Well I spent the day cleaning out the weeds from the vineyard today. I ran through the rows of last years vines and hoed out all the weeds in the row strip - 9 rows 250 feet long. 6 of them I had to do completely with the hoe, but the rest I use the Troy-bilt tiller to do figure 8s in. That gets 90 percent of the weeds in the row. I also had to do another 8 row I had planted this year with the tiller. The ragweed sure liked the rain and warm weather of this week and came up pretty thick. Best to get it while it's small. 6 hours later I was pretty well done with the hoeing and tilling. I then run the tractor with small harrow through between the rows to knock out the rest of the weeds and grass coming up. It sure looked nice when I finished up, but alas it started to rain again. I want to get some pictures to show everybody what its looking like. The vines are growing well, even the newly planted ones are starting to leaf out after only a week in the ground.


A lot of the vines from last year are putting out a lot of growth down low and the buds on the vine higher got eaten badly by the Flea bettles. I will have to prune back some more and thin out some of the bottom growth.


Next on the agenda- Trellising for the vines planted last year from cuttings. By the way, the vines I left in the little nursery (and planted this spring)are almost the same size now as the ones I was able to get big enough early enough last year to plant out in the vineyard. Sorry for no pics- maybe tomorrow after work.


----------



## Wade E

Sounds like a busy day apple.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Was a hard working weekend for us....


We got near 3 inches of rain since last Monday...Jim had quit planting his soybeans because it was too dry....then he's been sitting because it was too wet....Yesterday He field cultivated and is finishing his planting now.


Yesterday I mowed the yard...it sure grew with the rains and the dandelions can make it look soo bad....Anyone know a spray [other than 2-4-D] that will kill dandelions and not grapes?????


Today I laid out a couple pieces of plastic and set out some plants...82 assorted tomatoes, 36 hot peppers, 32 bell peppers, some tomitillos and eggplant...Had more plants to set out but got too windy to lay out anymore plastic.








I plant in black plastic to conserve moisture, avoid weeding and it keeps the tomato diseases at bay....it is worth the extra work.


In a Tornado watch...storms predicted for the next 2 days and rain for the rest of the week.....God is Great!!!! Life is Good!!!!


----------



## grapeman

....Anyone know a spray [other than 2-4-D] that will kill dandelions and not grapes????? 


How about glyphospate(Roundup) That would surely kill the dandelions, but is a little hard on the grass too



. I just keep the lawn mowed as close as I can so they don't show much and live with them- although we don't get too many on the sandy ground.


Sounds about like what I planted yesterday, NW. I finished the tomatoes with a total of 150. Planted 50 bell peppers and about 50 hot peppers. Also put in 25 pounds potatoes, cabbage, cauliflower, brocolli and cucumbers. The strawberries are looking good, but I will need to start another patch. I plan on plowing them under when done for this year. I planted a couple rows of grapes up through them on one end-so now they are in the way. I have a better spot I'm gettingready for themnow.


----------



## Waldo

Dang, just reading about what all you two have accomplished has made me tired again. I may have to call in and take off another day from work just to rest up from what you two have done.


----------



## grapeman

I got some pictures this AM but the sun was bright so they aren't great. The flea beetles really did a lot of damage to the late buds of the American varieties. I will wait and see if they make up growth. 








Here are the black currents. I will add the trellis this coming week.






Here is a lower bud showing the damage after growing out. The upper buds were tighter at the time so more damage done to them.








One of the expansion areas wher I added vines this year. The yellow flags mark the vines until I get the stakes in.

























*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Everything looks great...except the 'Swiss-Cheese' leaves...I better go out and check on mine.


Say...do Currants need staking????


----------



## grapeman

Most currants don't need staking as they don't get that tall. I planted mine at the end of a row of vines so I will continue the trellis on in them. That will allow them to be supported somewhat, especially the Titania- which get quite tall.


I'm trying to track certain characteristics of the varieties I'm growing and am beginning to see a couple varieties standing out as vigorous. I am waiting to be able to make more wine from several varieties.


----------



## Wade E

Wow appleman, thats turning into quite the vineyard. Are you thinking
on fermenting all this or maybe start selling vines eventually? Very
impressive!!


----------



## rgecaprock

Apple, do you have a job you have to go to everyday too? If you are like my dad.....you come home from work, put on your green jeans and head for the garden until dark....it's not work.....it is an absolute pleasure!!!


He had 4 girls with4 hoes......we were right there with him!!!! Iloved every minute of it too.


Ramona


----------



## grapeman

Ramona, yes I go to work every day, but I work in that little building that looks like a small house in some of the pictures(20x28 feet). I get to look out my office window every day and see how the vineyard is doing. I know..... but somebody has to do it!







It was rough work tonight and very painful



. I was stripping lower shoots off a lot of the vines and giving them a final pruning. I got rid of thousands of little grape clusters(still flower buds). I keep telling myself they will be better off in the end. I am leaving about 10 shoots on for now and a lot of them have 2 or 3 clusters, so I can still get some grapes from them. They are growing unbelievably fast right now. A lot of them are growing about 2 inches a day right now. Still a lot of them to strip. I planted another couple flower beds first then decided it was too early to go inside-until the skeeters just about drained me dry.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

And to think someday we will all be able to say we knew him when he just had a few hundred vines!


----------



## grapeman

I got the Blue-X grow tubes on over the weekend. I used them this year and hopefully can keep them disease free with them on- if not off they come. I'm using them so I can spray Roundup between the vines since there is quackgrass in the spot I planted. It will alow me to spray right up to the vine without damage. Below are some pictures of the process. 



















































*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Is that the sole purpose for the grow tubes? I've often wondered.


----------



## grapeman

The grow tubes are a multi-purpose contraption that everybody asks what they are for. Let's see....
1: Protect vine from rodents chewing- including big 4 legged ones(deer).
2: Act as a little greenhouse to warm the plant and make it grow faster.
3: Make training easier- vine grows straight up without need for tying
4: Protect from spray - my main reason for using this time.
5: Looks pretty.
6: Makes people ask what the heck all the little blue things are- I'm telling people it's the latest in Blue-Tube Technology


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, looks "purty!"


Question: in pic no. 6, it appears the vines in the background are pretty well along, but then in pic no. 7 it appears they are all in grow tubes. Did you just sorta "force" them into the tube?


----------



## Wade E

Looks like your getting ready for the 4th of July to launch alot of mortars. Very cool appleman. Do they glow in the dark?


----------



## grapeman

Dave, the smaller they are the easier they go in the tubes. I broke a few shoots off doing it. They SHOULD go on soon after planting. Also they go in much easier when they have been pruned back to 2-3 buds. The Cab Franc with the short graft and only a couple buds went on nice and easy.


Wade the box full of them I put together for Roman Candles.....



And I don't know if they glow in the dark butThat would be cool if they were treated with a phosphorescence(I bet I murdered that word).


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Your among friends, you can say "That would be cool if they were treated with a glow in the dark kinda stuff."


----------



## Wade E

Kinda like a big grape RAVE!


----------



## grapeman

I continue work with training my humble little vineyard. I did the St. Pepin and Frontenac Saturday and the Buffalo yesterday. The St Pepin was less unruly than the Frontenac. The Frontenac relly was growing like a bush with lots of grape flower clusters. Not wanting them all in year 2 I pruned out to basically the largest stem. That got rid of most flowers, but now they can be trained better and easier. The first one I did had to main shoots and twisted around each other. I cut the first one off(smaller diameter) I then had the main shoot that had a small one growing off it lower on the backside, so I put the shears lower to clip it off - and it stayed. I looked closer and the main shoot had dropped down- OH NO I CUT OFF THE WHOLE VINE!



The first vine now will begin growing all over again from 1 leaf.


----------



## grapeman

I also designed and assembled a vineyard sprayer over the weekend. It is intended to be driven between rows and sprays each side of the tractor as you drive. It consists of a 3 pt hitch carry-all with a wood platform to carry the sprayer. I used a cheap $169 FIMCO spot sprayer with hand wand. I ordered a control assembly with guage for $20 and fitted it to the sprayer. I then went to my local steel shop and picked up material to make the boom. That is the metal rectangular thing in the pictures. I welded it all up and painted the whole thing red(except the sprayer and platform). 


I got the needed nozzles and hoses and fittings and put the whole thing together yesterday and gave it a test spray. Don't worry in the pictures it is only water spraying out to check. At first the wires weren't long enough so I hooked it up to the lawnmower to test it. I then ran a longer wire with switch(works with a 12V pump). After testing I drove it through a couple rows to test coverage. It seems to work good at this point.


I felt I needed this sprayer for use in the vines instead of just the orchard air blast sprayer. When I spray with that I have to get at least a row away from the vines and let the spray drift down into the vines- which I don't like doing. To be continued..........

























*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Your going to have a fantastic vineyard real soon...Good Luck with your venture....Neat sprayer rig!!!


Sorry about the pruning error...things happen....have done it to plants mayself....I hate pruning out anything that's growing [except weeds]...doen't seen fair...but...I know ....It is necessary.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Too bad about snipping the whole vine - at least it wasn't a forgotten finger! I know someone who cut herself badly pruning.

Tell us what you are spraying for mainly - mildews and insects?


----------



## grapeman

So far only spraying for insects- mostly steely beetles. They just won't go away. It's been fairly dry this year- that's when they seem to be worse. 





I feel sorry for the vine but 1 out of 600 isn't too bad. It looks empty ther, but I expect it to make a full recovery- just a little smaller this year.


How are your vines doing bilbo?


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Steely beetles are something I am not familiar with here, and hopefully won't be in the future, even with global warming effects. Japanese beetles, on the other hand....





The vines are doing pretty well, although one of the Foch lost both cordon arms and is trying to push a couple of new buds now. The runt of the litter in the Landot Noir row is still slow to develop this year too, so it got a little Miracle Gro. Otherwise most vines are developing bilateral cordon arms nicely. I hope to post some photos sometime. I also planted 8 new Marquette from Northeastern Vine last week. Now I'm all planted out, no more space, which is probably good since what I have is plenty to take care of.


----------



## Wade E

Nice rig there appleman!


----------



## grapeman

I am noting early bloom in the wine grapes here now. Most varieties have at least soom blooms open, some mostly open and some just an occasional one. The American varieties like Concord, Niagara, Buffalo and Catawba are a week away from bloom.How about you other guys- are yours blloming yet, at least what clusters you left there?


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

appleman said:


> I continue work with training my humble little vineyard...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Appleman, with all the work you have put into it, you should be proud, even if you are humble by nature!


----------



## Waldo

Impressive spray rig appleman.!!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Frontenac starting blossoms here.


----------



## Wade E

Funny, I cant see any in the picture you posted.


----------



## grapeman

Wade, the grape blossomswould be a little plain after all of NW's flower pictures. They look like fuzzy grape stems. They have about the most plain blooms in nature. 


Here is one from somewhere else.











*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## grapeman

*WARNING* *WARNING* *WARNING*


The Japanese Beetles have arrived at the vineyard. I was walking the rows this evening and found the first ugly critter of the year. I need to spray in a few days so I will keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get too bad before then. 


Yesterday there were a few vines planted this year almost to the top of the 30" grow tubes and today there are a couple dozen above the top. The winner of the speed trial is - Corot Noir, one of the Cornell named varieties from last year(planted less than 4 weeks ago).


----------



## jobe05

appleman said:


> <TABLE style="TABLE-LAYOUT: fixed" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 align=center ="tableBorder"><T>
> <T>
> <TR>
> <TD vAlign=top ="msgOddTableRow">Posted: 18 June 2007 at 8:44pm</TD></TR>
> <TR ="msgOddTableRow">
> <TD vAlign=top height=150 ="msgLineDevider">
> <DIV style="OVERFLOW: auto" ="msg">
> 
> 
> The Japanese Beetles have arrived at the vineyard. I was walking the rows this evening and found the first ugly critter of the year. I need to spray in a few days so I will keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get too bad before then.
> 
> </TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>




Wow.... I was doing the RSS feed ad thougt FVW turned into the Appleman forum, all your post showed up all in a row.


The beetles just showed up here also. It's funny how around the country plants seem to get on track. NW's apples and other fruit trees seem to be catching up and surpassing what ours are doing here in NC.


----------



## OilnH2O

Yeah- It was almost like "Groundhog Day" -- I thought "HEY! I've seen these all before!"




But it is nice to see the progression.


----------



## NorthernWinos

I was wondering what was going on...I thought I had a virus...


Seriously...it's like a diary and good to see things progressing like that.


----------



## grapeman

That is the intention guys. I thought it would be handy to show the progression from initial planting to making some wine from them either this fall or next. That way people browsing the forum wanting to see something like that and contemplating planting a vineyard can follow along without sorting throughmany pages of content. I will initially post here as I go along and every once in a while copy to the other post to keep it updated. If it causes too many problemsor confusion, I will get rid of it. I hope a few people at least find it helpful.


----------



## rgecaprock

Appleman,


I'm very impressed with everything you do!!! 


Ramona


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Appleman, a friend of mine from work planted some vines this spring,I believe he is definitely watching your progress after I showed him this site and your post. Truly a wealth of info for anyone considering growing some grapes.


----------



## grapeman

Here are some updated pictures showing the progress of things at the vineyard. I dug in the rest of the 50 posts I had to set and installed the earth anchors(holds the wires at the row ends). I also hoed some of the weeds out again and trained some more with the vines- a never ending job. 


First a few before and later pictures. The before picutes July 8, 2006 The later pictures are showing the dates.










The same area-LaCrosse white grapes








St. Pepin




















Same area last year






For everybodied worried I killed the vine I cut off by accident-he is growing back














I'll post more later. I can only put in 2 or 3 at a time without losing them. I have some of grapes, different training and catch wires.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Wade E

Wow Appleman, they look great!


----------



## NorthernWinos

You've sure been busy and everything is showing your loving care.


----------



## Joanie

Wow!!! Amazing!!!

How tall are your posts now that they're in the ground?


----------



## Wade E

Whats that delapitated structure in the background of the 5th picture, an old barn?


----------



## grapeman

Joan the posts are almost 6 feet out of the ground. The red box is the fruiting wire at 32 inches high and the two blue boxes are catch wires about 12-14 inches each higher. The green box at the top is a bird netting wire. This is for Verticle Shoot Positioning (VSP). The variety is Chardonel and I am keeping them a little low for the cordons to develop stronger. I will be doing quite a few varieties this way and will add the catch wires before next year.






Wade, yes that is an old hay barn. The roof collapsed under a few spring snows about 5 years ago in late March. We had over six feet of snow in about 4 days time. I couldn't get out there to shovel it off, the snow was over my head. The rafters had held up fine for many years, but just couldn't take the snow. I am little by little salvaging the barn boards, but have a long ways to go.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## grapeman

Joan here are some Frontenac I am fruiting to slow down. 




















Glenora Seedless - Training with multiple shoots and some grapes.


















Wade since you noticed the barn here is an elderberry growing in the side of it.





*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Joanie

Is the Frontenac in its second year?


----------



## NorthernWinos

Appleman...are your Elderberries the wild red variety???


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, looks like some pic's have a catch wire lower -- around 12-18 inches (hard to tell scale) while you said in the "red box" your lowest wire was 32 inches... are you using different wire heights for different varieties?


----------



## Wade E

Are the seedless grapes for eating or winemaking?


----------



## Joanie

I was going to ask that question too, NW! Great minds *do* think
alike! =) I just went out behind the barn and took some photos of some
of my wild ones and they don't look like Appleman's!


----------



## Joanie

Appleman! Do we have enough questions for you?


----------



## grapeman

Wade the Glenora are for eating- black seedless grapes. I need to eat a few



. I have the Glenora(Black), Reliance(Red), Marquis(White) and Canadice(Pink)-8 out of 600+ vines. Ifthey do OK, I will expand them. 


Joan, those are what mine looked like a few weeks ago too- very fragrant. The small bright red berries are really attracting the robins. I went to take a picture of the big bush yesterday and all but a few berries had been picked clean by them. I hope the birds stay out of yours. When they ripen they go from red to black. Last year I was lucky to find a couple bushes they hadn't eaten all the berries off of out of dozens of bushes.


Here is one I cut off this spring. It is 6 feet tall again already and the leaf branches are over a foot long each. Very vigorous.









*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## grapeman

Here are some pictures of the vines I planted a few weeks ago. The grow tubes had been on 2 weeks when I took the pictures.


----------



## grapeman

Joan:
Yes the Frontenac are second year. They were 1-Yr-X last year(bareroot)


NW- Yes they are wild ones, they go from red to black when ripe. Yes they do make good wine.


OilnH20: There is a 12 -14 inch high wire in the bigger ones. I put it there for training and a drip line, but didn't need the drip there last year with all the rain. I am using three wires in some varieties for the drip wire and 2 cordon wires for 4-Arm Kniffen on some of them. I am moving over the VSP for most of the new ones. First wire at about 32-36 inches, then two wires(either side of post) every 12-14 inches(four catch wires total) and then the top wire to support bird netting for a total of 6 wires. I stapled this first one for now on the ends, but I can see it will be hard to tighten and adjust with just the gripples. Others put a chain on the ends and hang the wires from nails. I'm trying that next, but need to get some wire splices to accomplish the chain trick.


Did I forget anybody?


----------



## grapeman

Anybody that hasn't seen them yet, I have posted some updated pictures of the vines on the previous page. 


Here is a sample


----------



## grapeman

Anybody interested in seeing an update on the vines from the Wilsboro Research Farm cold hardy trials? I was feeling a little sluggish today so only worked in the vineyard for about 6 hours hoeing and decided it was time for a little road trip there. I hadn't seen the vines since we pruned them this spring. They trained them in kind of an umbrella kniffen system- training the canes over the top wire and back down to the next. I think some fruit thinning will be necessary on most varieties. It looks like the average vine has between 50 and 100 clusters. This is the third year for them growing and it is amazing they have that much fruit. It looks like it is keeping the vigor in check fairly well with the canes running three to five feet so far. I'm seeing 6 to 8 feet on the more vigorous varieties so far. It will be interesting to see how the crop ripens on the vines at Wilsboro. If anybody wants to see them I will post some tomorrow.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

To barrow from Waldo, We Like Pictures!


----------



## NorthernWinos

I too would love to see photos of grapes...I know I am not doing it 'According to Hoyle'...but what the heck....as long as I get some fruit.


----------



## grapeman

Ok. Here are some pictures from yesterday at the Willsboro Research Farm. This was a trip I took back to see how the varieties are doing since I last saw them at pruning. They were trained up over the top wire into what I would think to be an Umbrella Kniffen. May not be the best choice for all varieties, but they are treating them all the same. Most varieties continue to do very well in my opinion. Anyway here they are. First a cloudy day in the 60s on Lake Champlain- just south of Burlington Vermont(vineyard on the NYS side). 










A look down a couple rows








Frontenac














For NW- Edelweiss










Frontenac Gris










GR-7








LaCrescent



*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## grapeman

Had to split them up- so here are some more pictures 


Leon Millot








Marquette






St. Pepin








For Joan-Vignoles








Remember these are the third year on these in the ground. You can expect a limited small crop in the third year- yeah right. You can't tell from most of the pictures but there are about 50-100 clusters per vine. They have already started dropping some clusters on the less vigorous varieties. You can also see the difference in flowering times. Some have just set and others have pea sized grapes. Seeing what is growing there for quantities, I am beginning to wonder what the heck I'm going to do with 600 vines worth of grapes(this project only has 300 vines). I know- I will make a little wine!



*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Joanie

Thanks Appleman!! I can taste the Vignoles already!! It makes a fantastic ice wine!!

You _definitely_ need more carboys!!! It may be time for stainless!!!


----------



## NorthernWinos

Thanks Appleman...It's nice to see other styles of trellising...thanks for taking the photos and sharing them with us.


I notice they might have some multiple trunks....not as attractive way of trellising. I am doing that now on most of my vines since I had die-back on a single trunk.


I also notice they have straw mulch, is that only because they are young vines?? To protect from cold or suppress weeds???


A few years ago I ordered some hard to find hardy vines from Tom Ploucher [author of Northern Wineworks] He told me that straw mulch reflects the heat of the sun, good in spring when you don't want the soil heated up and start the sap running too early, but bad in the summer when you want the heat for ripening....also it harbors diseases...so I removed the straw from some very disease prone vines...That was the winter that the old big trunks split...I often wonder if they froze beacause...the roots were shallow from the mulch...or...the ground heated up too early in the year, caused the sap to run and they split the trunks when we got a cold spell...they were suppose to be the hardiest vines....-40* to -50*.


I continue to mulch the very tender vines and the newly planted ones....am still in question about keeping mulch on the new rows of hardy vines...most of the newer ones I planted are disease resitant....to mulch..or...not to mulch???


----------



## grapeman

Joan, I thought you might like to see Vignoles. I can see why they would make ice wine out of it- It is LATE. My Chardonel seems to be about as late as the Vignoles. I will see how they ripen later at Willsboro and may plant some next year myself. What am I saying- "Somebody Please Help Me!" I can't seem to stop planting



Yes I think I need some new carboys. Heck I may need a few barrels in a couple years.


NW that isn't straw mulch. When planted, they were put on black plastic mulch with the center aisles seeded to a grass/ clover mixture. What you see is the grass along the side of the plastic. They sprayed it with Roundup and what you see is the dead grass not mowed. They will go through later if needed with a string-trimmer to get rid of it. It would make a nice haven for mice if left. I don't plan on mulching either. There are multiple trunks where possible. They kept three for now to help insure survivability.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Richard,
What is their philosophy regarding leaf pulling and shoot thinning, along with crop thinning that you mentioned? There's a ton of vegetation on those vines! They've had Marquette for three years already? They must have gotten them when they were just released. Again, thanks for sharing.


----------



## grapeman

Bill I have no idea what their philosophy is on leaf pulling and thinning. This isn't a commercial operation only a trial for variety hardiness, so such issues aren't emphasised This is a remote site so the vine experts only visit every few weeks. There is a site manager, but he is responsible for many other chores like maintaining the hundreds of acres and the experimental crops. As far as them having Marquette, they are part of Cornell, so they were able to obtain unreleased varieties for trials. They have several unnamed varieties under trial I haven't even mentioned.


The canopy isn't terribly thick and I wouldn't worry about leaf pulling if it was mine, yet. You can see almost every cluster really well with even a few clusters I noticed sunburning. How are yours doing this year?


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

I'm about to put up some new photos. Check in to my thread.

Sorry, having trouble uploading photos for some unknown reason. When I get things straightened out I'll show the pics.*Edited by: bilbo-in-maine *


----------



## grapeman

Bill I found if you don't load more than 3 at a time, they will post OK. If I try 4 or 5 and then try post it give a db error and I have to try again. That's why you notice I need to edit so many posts. Good luck. Looking forward to your pictures.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - That wasn't the problem. I received an "access denied" screen when I clicked on the file upload button. It happened several times in a row, then stopped being a problem. Go figgah...


----------



## grapeman

Today finally was clear after a week of cloudy and rainy weather. About 7 inches of rain in 3 days with the worst coming the first day with 3-4 inches. The next day only about a half inch here, much more around the area so I was lucky. Then yesterday another 2-3 inches right here. Right across the lake they got 10 inches in Barre Vt. The storms just sat there for hours. When the fron moved through, it really was huge and poured for a couple hours. 


With no rain I got out in the vineyard and orchard and sprayed them for disease. Also with the storm, the Japanese Beetles moved in in huge numbers. I picked off one clup that had about 50 beetles in a mass the size of a golf ball. Beetle orgy going on there! I added sevin to the spray mix and hopefully they will be gone for a week. It is supposed to rain again for a few days again. So much for July being the driest month!


There is some disease in the vines, a little anthracnose and a little powdery mildew. I put on some oil at a low dose to disrupt the mildew. I will hit them again in a few days with Ridomil Copper for downey mildew eradication(if any) and powdery mildew supression.


Good luck to you all keeping the bugs and disease out of the vines so you can make your wines!


----------



## grapeman

I went out and trained vines in the vineyard today. I worked mostly with the Verticle Shoot Positioning-VSP. I had been leaving the vines fairly shaggy so they could build reserves and roots. I decided it was time to trim them down some and train the shoots upright. Here are a few pictures so you can see the progress of the vines. The first one is some of the ones I planted this year and took the grow tubes off after about a month on. The rest are random shots. 





















Some VSP vines- Leon Millot









































*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## grapeman

I had one more picture of some LaCrosse grapes that the server wouldn't take with the bunch. There are more pictures before this one.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Those are all looking so nice and manicured. Mine are out of control...[does that mean they have good roots????] 


You have some nice clusters hanging...will you have enough grapes for some wine this year???


I am getting nervous about doing any trimming at this time of the year as it would cause new growth which would result in tender shoots for winter....I do plan on cutting some leave off later on. 
Do you think I could pull some shoots if I can find their base to tug them out???


I see some shadows....was it early in the day??? What direction do your grape rows run???*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## grapeman

There should be a few grapes for a little wine this year, but I am not counting on any set amount. I am doing what is necessary to insure a good healthy vine- grapes come last at this point. 


My personal preference is to do a controlled thinning of shoots. I do not cut ends of vines. That is what sends extra growth out. By thinning the shoots out, it lets some extra light in and that helps to size them up faster and make them harder. I'm not sure you can pull the shoots at this point unles they are newly formed. They are pretty tough at this point. I was using the pruning shears today on most of the stuff.


----------



## Waldo

Very nice looking plants appleman. Will you make wines from eachvarital of grapeor do a blend of them?


----------



## grapeman

I am impressed with the looks of the grapes on the Chardonel. I'm hoping they continue to grow here and mature properly. They make a very attractive bunch. To show you how thy help control vigor by leaving them on the vine here are a couple pictures. First a Chardonel with no bunches left on it since spring. The cordons are growing well and are at least several feet long each. Then another Chardonel with several nice bunches of grapes. Note how the plant has made much less growth, although it will be adequate for this year. And then a closer shot of the bunches-they make me drool already.




















I can't forget the Buffalo that grew well last year and then the grape beetles chewed the buds up on this spring. They seem to have grown past the setback and have good growth for the year now.










And then a couple pictures of the Leon Millot before training yesterday showing how they had gotten quite bushy before I cut the extra shoots off.
















Lawnmower accident..........





*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## swillologist

Nice looking vines appleman. But I don't think that is how I would take care of an insect problem.



Must have been a bigopps.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Things are looking very good Richard. Have you taken care of the Japanese Beetle problems by now? I ask because I didn't see much activity from them until last week, and now they are running rampant. After trying to deal with them by knocking them into soapy water only once a day in the evening, and seeing more and more damage being done, I went the desperation route and sprayed Sevin last night. It is a big worry since we also keep bees - luckily not close to the vineyard, but we see them in the white clover all around the house and also in the clover up in the vineyard. I'll mow it all down this evening and hope for the best today. It was impossible not to overspray out into the aisles between vine rows.

Anyhow, your farm is going nicely and it is always enjoyable to read the stories and see the pictures of someone who is enjoying the work!


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, and Bill too...


Are you both using a "vertical shoot trellis" system? I know you are Rich, but since I've only put up my first wire at 32 inches, I'm still looking at whether these things should go up... or hang down!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Hi Dave - speaking for Bill here, and I think Rich is doing the same, I am training to the vertical shoot positioning system, or VSP. My low wire is about 34" and top wire is close to 6'. In between I've installed two tiers of "catch wires", which are complete loops of wire around each end post, so there is a slot of space in which to tuck vertical shoots as they lengthen upwards. Some shoots naturally head that way while others have to be coaxed by gently tying and pulling up to the nearest wire until they are caught and can anchor tendrils. The few clusters I left on my new cordons hang down at the bottom of everything and get dappled sun and a lot of air. A potential drawback to the system is the fact that tending the clusters requires stooping, but probably not a big deal with my number of vines, around 40. All five varieties that I'm growing have "agreed" to be trained vertically, although the Frontenacs may be just as happy drooping from a top wire. I've heard, though, that VSP aids in damping some of the vegetative vigor that this variety typically has. So far things are looking good, except for all the beetle damage!


----------



## grapeman

Dave- Bill gave a pretty good description of the VSP system. I'm using stationary catch wires at this point, but with a little extra hardware you can make the catch wires moveable. I wouldn't worry too much about exactly how to train them this year. Get them upt to at least the fruiting wire at about 34-36 inches. If you get a higher wire up on the top of the posts you can tie some twine from the base of the vine to the top wire. Then you just turn the vine around the string as the vine grows. You could get them to the fruiting wire and then top the vine(chop it off) a few inches below the wire. That will force a few shoots out either side of the wire. Those canes can then be trained as a cordon either side. You will probably have most of the cordon die back or it will be too small next year. Just cut them back to where they are the diameter of a pencil and let the plant grow and tell you how it wants to be trained. 


Bill- I haven't had to spray much this year-which I am grateful for. I did have to put on some sevin today. When I looked out the window this morning I could see birds swooping down into the vines. I though maybe they were after Japanese Beetles so I went out to check. A lot of vines had 8-10 beetles on, so I got out my new sprayer I made and applie some Sevin.2 hours later and they were about 95 % dead on the ground.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Wade E

Appleman that vineyard just looks awesome and professionally done, now
just take a 50' x 50' section of that and truck it on down to my
humble abode and send me the bill!


----------



## OilnH2O

Thanks for the quick feedback.I put my lowest wire at 32" on the posts, but it is closer to 34-36" across most of the vines. They are just coming to that level, and just out of the blue tubes.


I'll put the pictures on the "Missoula Vinyard" postjust to keep them from looking so "ratty" next toeither ofyours!


----------



## grapeman

wade said:


> Appleman that vineyard just looks awesome and professionally done, now just take a 50' x 50' section of that and truck it on down to my humble abode and send me the bill!




Wade, If I do that, you will have to stop applying the lawn weed control because the 2-4D in most of those products would severely stunt the grapes even if not put on them. It can affect the vines up to a quarter mile away!


Thanks for the compliment though- I appreciate any and all praise


----------



## Wade E

If your willing to bring that section out Ill pave the rest of the yard!!!!!! Who needs grass when you got grapes!




*Edited by: wade *


----------



## grapeman

I had my first pictures taken today of the vineyardbytourists from Antigua. I knew people were following this post, but WOW- Antigua, that's far away!. Seriously, I had a client who runs a medical practice in Antigua come today for a session developing their house plans. He had his office manager from there with him and they were so impressed with the vines that tthey had to get some pictures for the people back home.


----------



## NorthernWinos

This is just the begining...this isgoing to get big for you. Appleman you are doing everything right....


----------



## grapeman

Veraison is here!


I would say that my vines have finally begun reaching veraison in pretty good shape.The Frontenac are showing quite a few changing berries and the others have an occasional berry changing color.We have a few less GDD than last year, but more than normal and veraison is occuring just about the same as last year. Moisture is a bit of a problem this year- too much too often. The vines love it for growing, but the weeds just keep coming and so do the insects and disease pressure. Some varieties I wasn't expecting fruit from this year are actually going to bear a modest crop.


If the birds leave some, I will have the following this year in small amounts:
Buffalo,
Catawba,
Concord, American varieties
Niagara


Chardonel,
Frontenac,
Leon Millot, Wine Grapes
St. Pepin,
LaCrosse,


Marquis,
Glenora Seedless Table


----------



## swillologist

Sound good appleman. 
SWMBO was out eating some of our grapesthis evening and she said that some where falling off. Looks like I will be picking the Himrod in the morning. I will take a picture before I pick them.


----------



## grapeman

Some of you wonder why you would want to leave some bunches of grapes to help control vigor in young vines. I tried leaving some clusters on the more vigorous vines this year to see what effect it had on helping control their growth. Nothing scientific here, but here are some shots of vines I left very few grapes on in their second year. It has been one month since they were thinned a little and trained and weeded. Then I show the results of having to thin out some of the tangled mass to get them under control. 



















Same vines after pruning to resemble a vine










What had to come out








A vine balanced by some grapes without any additional pruning-more the way I want them.






A St. Pepin with grapes left for balancing






Another Frontenac



*Edited by: appleman *


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## swillologist

That makes a big difference. These are two year old vines right? Seeing that I don't know much about pruning grapes. I will have to let some bunches on my new vines next spring. It's good to let mother nature take care of some of it. This is about what they look like now. Some have reached the top wire now.






Thanks for sharing.*Edited by: swillologist *


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## JWMINNESOTA

Appleman I'm blown away by what you are doing there, looks great every time you show us! Swill thats a good looking vineyard also, couple years and I will be happy to come mow the grass for you!



just don't watch. Something truly serene and peaceful about looking at a vineyard.


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## swillologist

Thank you! I can't let SWMBO mow now or she will eat all the grapes.



It's not a real big vineyard. But with the orchard and all the wild things we have around here. I have enough to keepall mycarboys full. All that I have empty right now is a 3 gallon one. It will be full when the grapes that I haveget fully ripe.


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## Lmcirig

Wow! I'm impressed!!


Appleman, you live in upstate NY &amp; your grapes are good quality? For some reason Ithought grapes were grown in warmer climates??


Maybe I can grown some in my yard...


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## grapeman

Swillologist Yes these all are 2 year old vines.


The jury is still out on my quality of all varieties, but with proper variety selection they will certainly grow here. There are quite a few award winning wines made across the lake in Vt in the Champlain Valley and also some very good ones grown north of the border in Quebec. 


I will be going to Willsboro on Wed to help put up bird netting and will try to get more pictures at the Research Farm of the vines a year older than mine. When I was there last, they had a pretty heavy crop on them. Check back a few pages for some pictures I took in July.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Appleman....Your vines are growing like mad.....you sure have a lot to maintain.
Where I live is it too late in the year to do any pruning on the young vines I moved this spring???? I want them to harden off so they will be able to winter over....so I have just let the babies run wild and make all the growth they can to build good roots and get established....
I am kind of going by roses...no dead-heading in Aug onward so the canes will harden off.
Will be looking forward to the photos...I am most interested in the vines that are grown with multiple trunks.


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## NorthernWinos

Swill....Your vineyard is so well manicured, it shows that you have been loving it.


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## grapeman

NW,
With the pruning I am doing, I am not promoting new growth. I am taking out extra whole canes, not clipping the ends. It is when you clip ends that it forces laterals to grow. By taking out some of the extra bull canes, etc, the plant has more energy to put into hardening off the remaining shoots and canes. The vines have put the energy into the roots, so there is actually more stored energy and root reserves by removing some of the canes. 


Yes it is a good idea to let the ones you planted this year grow somewhat unchecked. I will say though that I planted another 75 Frontencac this spring. I left some to grow unpruned and untrained except to attach to the stake. I pruned the other half to a single shoot and trained upright. The unpruned vines have about 3-6 shoots up to 18 inches high, whereas the trained ones are about 5 feet high with a much thicker cane. They are alos getting several laterals so I think the mass is about the same, but I think I prefer the single shoot. It's a good thing grapes are very foregiving and grow pretty much no matter what we do to them.


----------



## OilnH2O

Lookin' good, Rich! And, I think you've got a solid strategy going there from the looks of the results!


----------



## Wade E

Are they almost ready to transfer to my yard appleman?


----------



## Joanie

All I can say is WOW!! That's amazing, Appleman!!! I sooo need lessons!!


----------



## grapeman

I can't believe the amount of sugar the Frontenac produce. They barely started changing color a week ago and some of them are getting reddish. Out of curiosity tonight I got out the handy dandy Refractometer I got from George last year and tested a couple berries. A little squeeze and out came the nice juicy juice, already reddish in color. They are already at 15 brix! I'm used to Concords and Niagaras that get about that high when they are fully ripe! It will be interesting to see what they finally get up to when fully ripe.


----------



## NorthernWinos

So...how do you know when each variety is truely finished ripening???


----------



## pizzaerick

Well, you look for the trifecta of acid, Ph, and sugar. Don't ask me what the numbers are though! 

One vintner I spoke with goes by the ph instead of the sugars. He feels he can add the sugar, or water, but adjusting the ph just doesn't give him the results. Judging by the wines of his I've tasted, he's on to something there!

Another looks at the sugars primarily.

This weekend we start harvesting Edelweiss, Brianna, and a couple others. In about 2 weeks we're looking at St Croix, and about 3 weeks for Frontenac... This is just south of the Twin Cities. Grapes are about 2 weeks early this year. My friend can't wait to get them off the vine. Hail decimated his crop last year, and just a few days ago he had a close call with hail... We're talking FEET away from destruction... You should see the neighboring corn field!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

NW - The simplest test and probably what you do, give them a taste and look at the color of the seeds.


----------



## grapeman

I went down this evening to Willsboro to help with the bird netting. It didn't go on hard at all. !4 foot netting over the top and fastened underneath. We just used cabob skewers to knit them together. It went pretty fast- only a couple hours to do 10 rows about 250-300 feet long.


The grapes have reached veraison and most have pretty good color- a couple days ahead of mine, but they are 40 miles south of me. 


Saw a few new faces there I hadn't seen before. One young man came up and introduced himself. A very nice young man. Bilbo might recognize the name- Andy Farmer from Vermont. He has a nursery that specializes in the cold hardy varieties. Had an enjoyable evening with some nice people.


Harvest is a few weeks off and is estimated to be better than a ton and a half from 300 vines. They are 3 year old vines and very vigorous. I got a few pictures, but I'll have to see if any of them are light enough. I didn't get them until dusk.


And NW, I agree with Bill, you can just taste them and check the seeds. But then again, my Millot have brown seeds and have barely begun to turn colors so that doesn't always indicate ripeness.


----------



## swillologist

Sounds like you had a good time appleman and got some good experience also. 
Tomorrow is picking day here. We just have two vines here right now that areready.So it shouldn't be a verybig job. The late cold spell this spring was hard on them. There isn't very many grapes on them. One of the vines has very few grapes on it. I am hoping we will have enough for a small batch. *Edited by: swillologist *


----------



## grapeman

Sorry, Most of the pictures were unsalvageable. I lightened a couple to show a few grapes, but they don't show the multiple trunks well NW. Some of them were still so vigorous that they wished they had left even moreshoots on for clusters.


Here's a couple- 1 Marquette-the red and 1 St. Pepin or LaCrosse(not sure which-the labels were too faded to read in the light)


----------



## grapeman

I had to build trellis today(or at least start) for some of the vines started this spring. I was just going to train them on stakes this year, but they got so big that they kept tipping the stakes over. While I got a few pictures of it I took some more of the vines and vineyard. 


Frontenac






















Leon Millot










St Pepin








New trellis going up











*Edited by: appleman *


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## Wade E

Those are some nice clusters there appleman.


----------



## grapeman

Wade those are some fairly small clusters. Some of the American varieties are huge, but still really green. 


Here are a last couple pictures I couldn't get to load on the previous post(last page).


The Leon Millot VSP is filling in nicely I showd a few weeks ago.










Finally here is a picture I used on the first page of the post and what part of the vineyard looks like now. Getting close yet?


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Hey Richard,

The shots of the Frontenac leave me wondering if Andy sold me Frontenac Gris by mistake. Mine are still totally green, although showing a bit of translucence now, showing a little of the yellowing that the white varities develop as they ripen. I'll just have to wait and see. It looks like we'll lose an entire week of development while this cold weather drifts through. Down to the mid-forties for several nights, with frost warnings in the western mountains of Maine and NH - sheesh! None of my table grapes have started veraison yet either.

Back to the Frontenac. Did you find you have to spray for PM with yours? if so, what have you used. Of my 5 varieties, only the Frontenacs are showing evidence of infection, with brown speckling of the leaves that spreads quickly up the shoots. I let it go too long, I'm afraid, and only today did I spray with powdered milk to try to stop it. I also have sulfur on hand but have to wonder if I need something stronger. Last year PM was only a very small problem here and there for the Frontenac at the end of summer. I now know that in future I will have to start spraying early with this variety.


----------



## Wade E

I cant wait to see a really big cluster then!


----------



## grapeman

Bill the Frontenac Gris actually start turning also and aren't a true white variety. They just lack the intesity of pigments the regular Frontenac have. They turn a pale blueish purple and the whine made from them doesn't get much pigment. 




When I talked with Andy he said that Frontenac seems to get just about every strange non-descript disease there is, but it doesn't stop them. Mine have what looks like a magnesium deficiency, but it is the only variety out of 20+ to show it. Andy says that he has had a lot of growers comment on that.


If it is powdery mildew they are getting, you could use some Kaligreen or Baking Soda, both considered organic. I use baking soda this year when the Leon Millot started getting some PM. It stopped it pretty quickly. I got some Elite last week to keep on hand if it starts to get out of control early next season. Not supposed to use more than 2 or 3 sprays of it per year to prevent disease resistance buildup.


The cold nights are slowing growth, but it doesn't seem to be slowing ripening a lot. I've heard that cold nights and warm days actually speed up ripening. I guess it signals the plants that the growing season is getting close to the end, hurry up and ripen the seeds. It was 45 here this AM, 38 in Saranac Lake. Close to a full moon so it will warm back up in a few days once we get past the full moon. Then we will be good for another month.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Appleman....some of those photos would make nice labels. 


My Frontenac are starting to turn now...last year was the first year they had a few clusters and this year they didn't set many clusters either. I was kind of disappointed in the one older plant. I planted a row of 9 new vines and have a couple spares...Hope they come around.


The Beta [Concord X Wild Montana] are turning quickly now, they are not as sweet as the Valiant [Fredonia X Wild Montana] Valiants are very disease prone and am very happy as they very clean this year. Beta are very disease resistant.


The King of the North are turning nicely too....will be awhile on those. Kind of nice when the ripening pf varieties is spread out like that.


The couple Swenson Red vines...that I pruned way back this year, they have a few clusters that are turning red now.


Of the white vines, Louise Swenson's has the most clusters for 2 year old vines. The Edelweiss was pruned way back and grew too much foilage...I have to prune out some leaves and get some light in there.....I have planted 2 new white vines this spring a Prairie Star and a replacement Baltic Amber...they didn't grow much. 


I have a hard time telling when the white grapes are ready.


We have also had a few nights in the upper 40's....hate that!!!!

*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## Wade E

Hopefully the refractometer will help you distinguish when the whites are ready!


----------



## OilnH2O

lGee....






Here at "Blue Tube Farms" mine are just a few inches out of the tops of the tubes!


----------



## grapeman

If they are out of the top of the tubes, they have done pretty well for all the heat you had there. I'm sure you had a number of days of o growth, especially in the tubes. Plants don't grow when the temps get above 95 deg. Since the tubes raise the temps a few degree inside, the problem of the hot days was compunded. They will be fine, remember they were just rooted cuttings this year, not bareroot vines that already had a year of growing roots before you saw them. 


Next year watchout!


----------



## grapeman

I have been watching an interesting development in my vineyard. First, as a lot of varieties of grapes reached veraison I noticed that apparently the Catawba were reaching veraison at about the same time as the rest. One vine developed fruit with a pink tint to them. This is mid August and they normally aren't ripe until mid-October. A week or so went by and I went to check their progress. I found the vine and two bunches are almost red now. Well that can't be a Catawba they don't get red and then purple, they stay pink. I decided it was probably a misplaced Buffalo since I got some of them at the same shipment last year. This is only on one cane on the whole vine. There are four other bunches still pure green on the same vine and no other Catawbas have even begun to change at all.


Put on the thinking cap......


I am beginning to suspect that I have found a Bud Sport of Catawba which gives ripe fruit a full month earlier than normal Catawba. They also develop a much deeper color than normal. I'm exited and will eagerly follow this ones progress. I'm, going to try to pick up a small bird-net this afternoon so I can try to keep these bunches intact. I will get some pictures later showing the drastic differences this one cane exhibits!
Stay tuned......


----------



## Joanie

A "Bud Sport"? Is that a beer-drinking NASCAR guy?


----------



## grapeman

That's probably it Joan. Maybe I have had a couple too many Bud Lights myself seeing this mutation. I will have to log all observations of this particular mutation- if it really is. I'm going to monitor it and if it is any good, I will have to propagate it. It would be nice to get an earlier Catawba since they can ripen so late normally. 
Here are a couple pictures. The bunches aren't big, but the cane they are on is a small one. The first one is the Sport(mutation) and the second is the noraml Catawba.


----------



## grapeman

Apples Anybody? We are still a few weeks away from harves of most varieties, but they are coloring up good.


----------



## Wade E

Very cool with the grapes and the apples look awesome.


----------



## grapeman

got a small crusher for doing this season's grapes. No destemmer with it, but I'm waiting until next year to spend the extra money on one with the destemmer in it. I will catch the crush in the 20 gallon food grade container. I have several with sealable lids so I could ferment in them if they work well.


----------



## NorthernWinos

WOW!!! On the 'sport'....hope you get to make many cuttings from that vine...The 'Champlain Grape'. 


Your apples look like a good crop this year too. Are any falling yet??? Seems I can't keep up on the Duchess tree....an early cooking apple, makes fair juice.


Your grape crusher will make for good photos later...Hope your 'vision' comes true!!!*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## rgecaprock

apple,
Looks like you are going to be very busy soon. You must be so happy to be doing what you love. 


Good Growing............Ramona


----------



## grapeman

The grapes continue to ripen. I have measured Frontenac up to 22 brix and Leon Millot up to 18 brix. I want them to hang as long as possible, but they are starting to dissapear some. Not sure what has found them. There were some coyotes a week ago, but haven't seen tracks since. I saw a turkey a few days ago, but not since. Probably just song birds . Oh well, I'm not supposed to take a crop this year anyway - the joys of growing vines!





Here are a couple Frontenac


















A couple Leon Millot
















And how about a nice Mac? (Sorry Joan, yes I do grow them! They go well in cider!)





*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## swillologist

Your grapeslook great appleman. I had one vine that was slower to ripen then the other one so I left then to ripen more. I went to mow Saturday and they were all gone. There was only a few clusters onthis vine so I didn't lose very many. It was either the birds or the raccoons that got them. I don't know which one it was or may be both. I do have another vine that ripens later I will have to watch thosea little closer. *Edited by: swillologist *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Your Frontenac grapes are much further along than mine.....Your going to be making wine real soon. Ours are barely all purple....Hope they do get to ripen up here.....


You are going to be investing in a whole lot of netting next year or so.....Anxious to see your crusher in use and your wine making process.


We have been enjoying some cooler temps lately, nice for us, but not for fruit.....tomatoes are slow too.


Had a dandy storm last night, 82/100th's, maybe more today....wish it would have come a month ago....Too late for the soybeans, they have aborted the top podsand quit growing, the plants are shutting down production....maybe the beans in the pods will get a little bigger with this rain....Field corn is looking pretty good.


So it goes.


----------



## Wade E

( *Not sure what has found them.*</font>) Sorry Appleman but I was in the area and they looked so good and got hungry!I did cover my tracks pretty good though. Ah, the grape ninja!




*Edited by: wade *


----------



## grapeman

We haven't had much rain lately so I'm not sure it was possible for the thief to "Wade" in.







They are starting to taste REALLY GOOD! The Frontenac are actually getting thick and viscous and the flavor is really taking on black cherry flavors. The Leon Millot are very tasty, not sure how to describe and the St. Pepin are just plain very fruity and overflowing with citrus flavors. LaCrosse is still very green since they are later.Lot's of other varieties in lesser quantities still very unripe.


----------



## Wade E

+



+


----------



## grapeman

Well I was sizing up what there is for grapes out in the vineyard this evening. They continue to ripen and I am still amazed byt what is ripening when. Around here Concord has been the standard to measure agaisnt for ripening. Niagara is a little earlier but isn't quite as hardy. BUT, all of the other grapes I have in are quite a bit earlier than the Concord and Noagara, except for maybe the Catawba which are a real late grape.


All told I have twelve varieties this year with at least a sampling of grapes on them. I even found a bunch of Alden which I didn't think had any grapes at all on it. They are mostly purple and taste very good already. The Chardonel are riper than the LaCrosse which are supposed to definitely make it around here, but the Chardonel are said to need a longer growing season. They are still a bit acidic, but not as bad as the Lacrosse and definitely are better colored and softer.


Let's see, I have


Alden
Buffalo
Catawba
Concord
Chardonel
Frontenac
Glenora
Lacrosse
Marquis
Leon Millot
St. Pepin
Niagara


Some table grapes and some wine grapes.


----------



## Wade E

That looks like a good wine tasting list to me!


----------



## NorthernWinos

Appleman....what is the Brix of the various grapes???? Have you tested all of them yet???


So far, what is your favorite one for flavor???


----------



## grapeman

NW I haven't tested all of them yet because some haven't even changed yet. I also have no idea yet on a few what they will taste like yet. I'll give a few here and more info on them as they ripen.


Alden- Blue non-slipskin. Tasty so far with a slight muscat flavor
Buffalo- Brix 15 Very sweet for brix level, tough skin table grape
Catawba- unripe but from memory floral and fruity
Concord- brix 10 - need I describe
Chardonel- brix 14 tangy fruit flavors
Frontenac- brix up to 22- berry flavors with high acid still
Glenora - brix 15 seedless -spicy
Lacrosse- brix 14 hasn't developed much flavors yet
Marquis- huge clusters just turning
Leon Millot- brix 18 -lots of berry and cherry flavors
St. Pepin- brix 16-17 very flavorful with lots of fruit and citrus tones
Niagara- brix 11 too unripe to describe


----------



## NorthernWinos

Good notes on these varieties. How fast does the Brix change??? I imagine a lot depends on the weather. 


The days are sure getting shorter and the nights cooler, wonder if thatencourages the ripening.


----------



## grapeman

I went to check on my buddy who has about a thousand vines growing about 15 miles northeast of me right off of Lake Champlain. His grapes are doing wonderfully/ strike that were doing wonderfully. Recently we had a thunderstorm blow through that literally came within hundreds of feet of my place. A mile away they had baseball size hail and wind. His place took it very hard from the storm. He had a couple tons or so of grapes hanging, not too far from harvest. He now has a couple tons of raisins and shredded vines. The winds uprooted or broke off hundreds of trees some three feet across. It blew off the wholeside and roof of his barn and dropped it on part of the vineyard. The whole sight was heartbreaking.
The cornfields up that way have no leaves left on them and a lot are flat.


I sure am glad it stayed just north of us here- Ive had my share of storm related damages in the past.I'm counting my blessings this time! You never know when mother nature will bring you to your knees!


----------



## Waldo

What a tragedy for your friend appleman. Hey, I saw a new grape offered at Wally World early this morning. It is siad on the package to be a cross between a Thompson seedless and a Muscat. I bought a pack and they are very tasty. Wondering if they might make a decent wine? *Edited by: Waldo *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Sorry to hear about the storm.....Storms are so spotty, seems some are hit and others are spared...Makes you wonder...Why??? But that is not ours to know...it just happens.


Crops can be insured and replanted the following year...... Vines may regrowor be replaced......Trees and take centuries to grow, buildings can be replaced but loose their aesthetic value....storms come and go...as long as no lives were lost we can be thankful.


----------



## grapeman

Waldo said:


> What a tragedy for your friend appleman. Hey, I saw a new grape offered at Wally World early this morning. It is siad on the package to be a cross between a Thompson seedless and a Muscat. I bought a pack and they are very tasty. Wondering if they might make a decent wine?




I don't think I have ever seen a crop so decimated before. What wasn't hit directly will surely rot from the others. He said the hail was for to six inches deep on the ground. And I have had a few crops destroyed before. There was one year when I had 60 acres of vegetables that it rained so much for so long that the tomatoes were floating in ponds of water hundreds of yards across. The corn rotted in the fields mostly since it stayed under water for days. It even floated pumkins to other fields. I think it was a year or two later that I decided I had had enough and gave the farm to my brother.


On the grapes, only one way to find out Waldo. Buy up a bunch of them and make up a gallon or so. Some of them can make a fairly decent wine.


----------



## Wade E

Man, what a bummer!


----------



## rrawhide

man oh man - sure sorry to hear of the devastation. Hope you come
out of it ok and you had insurance. I trust no one was hurt -
that's the main thing.

take care

rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

rrawhide, everything is fine at my place. The storm stayed literally just to the north of my place, like a couple hundred yards and traveled parallel. We barely got any rain and hardly any winds. Just the other side of the fenceline and north was where all the damage was. Other than the natives(wildlife) eating their share of the grapes, everything looks good- just pretty dry. 


In the past when I was farming vegetables, there was no insurance available at all. If you lost a crop- you were SOL. That's one reason why my brother runs the farm now. He has had his turn at pretty good luck this year so far. All crops have done pretty well. They had news coverage the other day at his place showing how just a couple miles can mean all the difference. His place was spared the storm since it is on the same farm as I am only a mile east of me. Others in the area were in the direct line of the storm and their crops were literally wiped off the earth.


----------



## rrawhide

hey hey hey and hi



glad the worst missed you. I have seen how nature works when we
were on an extended rv trip 3 years ago and went into West Virginia
where the remants of a hurricance came thru. We volunteered with
the Salvation Army for a couple of days feeding displaced people.
Amazing - one side of a road was perfectly ok and the other side -
gone. People were just amazed and in shock. By volunteering
we received a bigger blessing , by helping, than I think that they
did. It will remain with us forever. All I can say is WOW!!.



Glad you are OK. Stay safe.

rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

I needed to pick the Frontenac grapes this evening. The birds, coons and skunks were eating them clean. The low hanging clusters were mostly stripped clean. I decided that it was beter to get some early harvested grapes than no good ripe ones. There was about half of them left from what there was 3 days ago. I hadn't intended a big harvest and there wasn't a lot, but there was about 40 pounds total on about 30 vines I left some on.


Numbers aren't impressive, but should be workable. 
Brix- 23, TA 10 and pH 3.0
I will be using some malolactic fermentation innoculated at about day 6 of fermentation- a day or 2 ahead of press. I plan on regular yeast Lalvin RC 212.
More info as it progresses. No pictures of the grapes, I had to tend to a pruning shear accident(they are very sharp when new and can prune the skin off fingers too). I was making a red wine, but I didn't want to make it too red.






Other grape numbers- leaving on the vines for now pending animal harvest
Leon Millot- brix- 18-20
Chardonel- 16 brix
St. Pepin- 18-19 brix
LaCrosse- 16 brix


----------



## Wade E

Have you ever done a malo-ferm. before appleman? Hopefully in the next few years I will buy some equipment over time then buy some grapes from a local wine supply distributer that gets all the grapes around this time of year. It gets nuts in that place as its a small place and they get 3 or 4 refrigerated trailers and theres no where to park and barely standing room only. Im very interested in this but its just not within my reach for this year or maybe even next but after that I should be able to start sneaking in some stuff!




Its hard to get stuff like this in without her noticing!



Just kidding!

*Edited by: wade *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Appleman...glad you salvage some of your grapes and will get to make a batch of wine with them.....Will be interested in how your venture turns out....Good luck with your first run.


Hope your injury heals quickly.


----------



## grapeman

Well I had to harvest the few remaining bunches of Marquis seedless grapes this evening. The clusters had been about a pound to a pound and a half and a good foot long. The coons or skunks thought they should test them out and cleaned out a good share of them. They are a very tasty seedless grape with melting flesh and a wonderful aroma. I see more of them growing here soon. I only have two plants of them. The Glenora seedless are loaded, and getting bright blue and soon will turn almost a black color. I better throw some net over the one vine of it Ihave and hope for the best. The other seedless vines(2 each) of Reliance and Canadice didn't have any bunches this year being slower to establish. I will have to wait until next year to sample them.


The Buffalo are beginning to get very juicy and sweet. They have a wonderful flavor to them I remember from when my uncle grew them in the early 70's. Concords and Niagaras are still lagging behind everything, but are finally about to veraison so should proceed quickly now.


I'll post some brix data from the Willsboro Cold Hardy trial tomorrow. I don't have Excel on this machine. It's kind of interesting. They see their site as being too perfect of a site, unlike a lot of the land around here, being right on the lake, southern exposure, well drained loamy soil. Their numbers are consistently about 2 brix lower than mine here for the same days tested(within a day or two). I had figured my land being so sandy, well drained and protected would get a greenhouse effect . It seems to be doing so. Time will prove me right or wrong.


----------



## NorthernWinos

I bet your sand really gets hot and reflects the heat to your grapes.


Will be looking forward to seeing the Brix of various grapes in that trial....Last year I had a few Canadice, this year the plant is baren....Next year it gets removed and will place another Edelweiss there....they are very sweet and very dependable. 




I too had to pick a few gapes today...mainly because I wanted to...The squeaky little Cedar Waxwings were here in huge flocks...they were picking the Mountain Ash clean, one tree at a time...then they fly into the windows and either kill them selves or knock themselves silly for awhile....I feared they would go to the grapes next....


Seems the netting was working buta fewgrapes were getting pecked through the netting. Noticed some of the stems were starting to turn brown on some of the Valiant....I picked some of the ones that had turned a black color....they seem to be the sweetest....


The puppy was along....when I harvested the Sandcherries and Naking Cherries....I noticed she was eating some....Now she has developed a taste for grapes....she was eating some singles that fell to the ground, then I saw her pulling some off the vine...then she was in my basket helping herself....hope she doesn't start going out there on her own and graze.


We are expecting a strong cold front to move through, it was 94*F today, steamy and very windy, they say we might get heavy rain over the next few days, then highs in the low 60*'s....Picked all the ripening tomatoes too.


Tonight it is quiet outside...the birds are gone.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

The keeper of the carboys must of known where the goodies were coming from


----------



## grapeman

Here is the brix sample data for 2007 so far- harvest dates to be determined later. 



<TABLE style="WIDTH: 317pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=423 border=0 xtr>
<COLGROUP>
<COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64>
<COL style="WIDTH: 77pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3766" width=103>
<COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=4 width=64>
<T>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" width=64 height=17></TD>
<TD =xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 221pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent" width=295 colSpan=4>*Willsboro Wine Grape Sampling 2007*</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent" width=64></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD>
<TD =xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent" colSpan=4>*Sorted by Brix in Descending Order and Last Date*</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD>
<TD =xl22 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">*Cultivar*</TD>
<TD =xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum="39311">*08/17/07*</TD>
<TD =xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum="39317">*08/23/07*</TD>
<TD =xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum="39325">*08/31/07*</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>1</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">MN 1200</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>15.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>18.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>22.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>2</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Foch</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>11.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>19.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>3</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">GR7</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>18.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>4</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Leon Millot</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.4</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>17.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>18.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>5</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Marquette</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>15.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>17.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>6</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">St. Pepin</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>9.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>17.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>7</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Frontenac</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>16.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>8</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">La Crescent</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>15.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>16.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>9</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Frontenac Gris</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>15.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>10</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Baco</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>15.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>11</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Sabrevois</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>10.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>15.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>12</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Cayuga White</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>10.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>13</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">ES 6-16-30</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>14</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Prairie Star</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.2</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>15</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">La Crosse</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>7.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>11.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>16</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Louise Swenson</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>11.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>17</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Petiteamie</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.8</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>10.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>18</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">St. Croix</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>10.2</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>14.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>19</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Landot</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>9.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>20</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Vignoles</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>6.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.5</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>21</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Noirette</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>5.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>13.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>22</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Edelweiss</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>23</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">NY 76.844.24</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>6.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>11.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>24</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Ravat 34</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>7.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>8.5</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>12.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" align=right height=17 xum>25</TD>
<TD =xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent">Niagara</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>5.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>6.0</TD>
<TD =xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: text; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: text 0.5pt solid; : transparent" align=right xum>9.0</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 269pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 89.25pt; : transparent; mso-ignore: colspan-rowspan" width=359 colSpan=5 height=119 rowSpan=7><?amespace prefix = v ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-com:vml" /></vtroke></vath></vape>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: left">Note: 25 cultivars are represented in each replication (Rep 2, Rep 3). Cultivars in each Rep are present as panels of 3 vines each. Sample size: 20 berries of each grave cultivar (10 each from Rep 1 and Rep 2). Samples of each cultivar bulked and crushed and brix reading taken.</v:text></vape></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
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<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; : transparent" height=17>







</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; : transparent"></TD></TR></T></TABLE>This information is strictly for information purposes only with no interpretations made or implied.


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## NorthernWinos

That's interesting information....They seem to be increasing in sweetness every week, but some seem quicker than others. When do they expect to startharvest????


What is the MN 1200....a Minnesota trial variety?????...I have never seen that one and it looks like a winner. Looks like your Frontenac were ahead of theirs.


I have a couple vines of Louise Swenson, Prairie Star and Edelweiss, so was happy to see those on the list.


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## grapeman

Harvest is a ways off yet at Willsboro. Some varieties are obviously closer than others and there will be multiple harvests to accomodate varietals. Some varieties certainly do move faster than others. I guess if ripening starts late, then it would make sense they move faster. The fastest mover I have seen -of mine- is Chardonel. It moved up 4 points in just one week and is currently at the same brix as LaCrosse(also moving up fast).


The MN1200 is from the same place as was the MN1211 when they were planted at the site. MN1211 is now known as Marquette and that is all I should say on the matter. Propagation from those varieties is prohibited at this point. The project leader from Cornell Ext is from Minnesota so he got their input with some of the variety choices.


Juice samples from some varieties will be sent off to the enology department wine analysis lab at Cornell.


----------



## grapeman

It's only been a few days since last testing the wine grapes for brix butwe had a couple real hot days which pushed things along good. I think the Leon Millot are getting close, the brix didn't move much this week. The Chardonel continues to defy the experts opinions of it's viability here. They say we don't have a long enough growing season. 


This time when testing I used 10 berry samples instead of single berry for more accuracy. The berrieswere selected at random the lenght of the row


Variety 9/4/2007 9/9/2007


Leon Millot18-20 20.0
St. Pepin1820.2
Chardonel15-16 18.4
LaCrosse 1617.2


The table grapes are coming along pretty well with most taking on color real well. I keep sample by mouth.........yummmmmm*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

At what Brix will you harvest???? Or....is your harvest dependent upon the critters and other variables???


They are predicting lows in the upper 30's for us the middle of this week up here....This is a cruel world.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Hey richard - I think I remember you mentioning that you bought some Elite this summer for PM. Please tell me where you got it. PM here has become really bad. The Foch have it and are sulfur sensitive. I'll keep hitting them with milk, but given the severity, they need something in a bigger league. Thanks.
Bill


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## grapeman

Bill, you can try adding baking soda to the mix of milk or apply seperately. It will give some PM kill. It stopped the PM when I put it on at about 3-4 pounds per acre rate. I will PM you my Elite source.


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## grapeman

On 9/4 after picking and destemming I crushed the Frontenac grapes and set the must in a primary bucket. I estimate about 2.5 gallons of juice and the acid is somewhat high so I added 2 quarts water and added sugar to bring back up to 1.095. Since I want to do malolactic fermentation on it I only added 1/8 tsp K-Meta at this point.


I let it sit over night until the next day at the same time I put in the primary and added the RC-212 yeast. Fermentation started about 12 hours later. I punched down 2 to 3 times per day.


Today 9/10/07 I cleaned and sanitized carboy, extra primary, collection pan and press. I added the must to the press basket and go about 2 gallons of freerun juice. I cranked the press slowly for 20 minutes and decided that was about all I wanted to go for pressure. I ened up with 3.25 gallons. I guess I had about 2.75 gallons of juice from the 40 pounds of grapes-not bad.


I tested the SG and it was 1.002 already after 5 days with yeast. After waiting for the malolactic bacteria to come to room temperature, I added it to the bucket(with spigot to make carboy filling easier). Malo strain is White Labs WLP675 from George of course. I filled a 3 gallon carboy up pretty full and had most of a 1.5 liter bottle extra. Put airlock on each of these. I will add some oak cubes soon after I decide what I want to use for it.


Taste wise, it is pretty acidic as a result of having to pick early. I will wait and check acidity after malo is done in a couple months and if it needs I will try reducing the acid a little then. As a last resort I will swweten a little. I may even blend with some of the Leon Millot-depending on when I harvest them. I'm letting them hang as long as possible and the acid may get a little low-so a blend would be good.


To be continued.......


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - I can't remember now why you had to pick early. Was it critter damage that determined that? Maybe you've already said, but what were your starting numbers? This crop is from vines in their second summer, right?


----------



## grapeman

Yes I had to pick the Frontenac early because about 1/2 to 2/3 of them had already been consumed by some animals/birds. The brix was only 22 and acid around 3.0. TA was about 10. I tasted it when I pressed it and put it in the carboy. It is a little acidic but it is workable and has no green taste. They are indeed second year vines, so the grapes were low to the ground and I hadn't bothered with the expense of bird netting.


My St. Pepin are disappearing now and I will pick this weekend. I'm also going to pick the Leon Millot, although I did pick six vinesin the lower rows today. The animals are worse there, being farther away from the house. I got 6 pounds off those six vines(3/4 of them were gone by today). All of the varieties are turning now, even the later American varieties. They still have a long ways to go. Niagara is 10 brix and Concord 9. The Catawba's are running about 12 brix. The Buffalo are about 14 brix.


----------



## grapeman

I needed to pick the St. Pepin soon. The coons etc had eaten about 2/3 of them by now and I got 13.5 pounds from 20 vines so there should have been about 40 pounds or 2 pounds per vine second year. I took a picture to compare the Chardonel and St. Pepin. I forgot the ruler in the picture. The Chardonel seem to average about 6-7 inches per bunch and the St. Pepin are more variable running from 5-7 inches. I am leaving the Chardonel as long as possible.I haven't taken TA or pH yet on them. I am hopefully going to get some more St. Pepin tomorrow at the otheer location. I'll try for test results when I get back. 





*Edited by: appleman *


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## Wade E

They look god Appleman, although the St Pepin looks like a much larger cluster. The length must be deceiving.


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## grapeman

I thought I might fool somebody with that one.



The St. Pepin is three bunches- 2 longer ones and one wide one. The Chardonel is just two bunches. I only picked two bunches to bring with me tomorrow to the grape harvest to show the guys from Cornell. I don't think they believe me the Chardonel is doing as well as it is. If it is winter hardy enough to last, my growing season seems to be adequate in a normal year for ripening it. A couple more weeks and it should be ripe enough for a harvest. *Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

Friday I went to Willsboro Cold Hardy Trial for an initial harvest of some of the grapes. We decided which ones were ready and not ready and harvested 7 varieties that were ready. The ones harvested were LaCrescent(overripe and falling off stems),ES 6-16-60(beautiful and fruity),Sabrevois(nice bunches but I think it should have hung longer myself),Marquette-(beautiful bunches and very tasty-not high acid), St. Pepin(not quite as ripe as mine but still has apricot flavors),Edelweiss(large bunches with lambrusca flavors), and Foch(makes a nice red wine). I will give the harvest weights and readings when they are available. 


Here are some pictures which I will split between a few posts so they download OK.


Our neighbor on the lake(very windy today- that is Vermont across the lake)



























*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

Here are a few shots of the bounty we got that day. So far the vines are bearing about 12 pounds per vine average(excluding Edelweiss which is about 30# per vine)








































The bags hold about 20 to 25 pounds of grapes each.


Tomorrow watch for pictures of the crushing and pressing and grapes I got from this harvest!*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Wade E

Man thats a beautiful sight Appleman!


----------



## NorthernWinos

WOW!!! How impressive. Looking forward to the pressing shots...



And the fermenting, and the racking and the bottling and...and...and...


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

keep up the good deed Richard (what are you, on vacation?)


----------



## grapeman

bilbo-in-maine said:


> keep up the good deed Richard (what are you, on vacation?)




LOL, no, not quite on vacation.




I just had the boss(me) give me the day off to go help. I don't get many days off. The location is a vacation destination though. You get to go spend the day by the lakeside while in a vineyard surrounded by the Green Mountains to the eas and the Adirondack Mountains to the west. It was dark when we got done last night and the guys from Cornell offered me to spend the night in the camp on the lakeshore. Sounds sort of like a vacation huh? 


I had to get home so I could process the grapes I got.


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## NorthernWinos

So...do you weigh the grapes with the stems on????


Everyday is Saturday when you are your own boss.....Sometimes you have to over work to please yourself.


----------



## Waldo

Mighty fine looking bunch of grapes appleman. Can't wait to see the pictures of the pressing.


----------



## grapeman

Here are some pictures I took while processing my grapes I got at Willsboro yesterday. 


First -what I brought home.


Left to right LaCrescent(68 pounds-4 gallons) brix-21.5
ES 6-16-30(64 pounds-4 gallons) brix- 19.5
Sabrvois(80 pounds-in fermenter crushed)brix-17.5
St Pepin(50 pounds-~3.75 gallons) brix 20.4
Marquette(120 pounds(in fermenter-crushed) brix 22.2















*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

Here's how I set up to crush the grapes. 














After crushing






Run it through the apple press- not great for grapes but works OK.








Here's a red






In the primary



*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

Onto the juice in their respective primary buckets 




ES 6-16-30












LaCrescent










St. Pepin












Sabrevois








Marquette



*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

That looks great...I bet you are really excited about this....I am just looking at the pix.


Will be anxious to see how the wines turn out.


----------



## Dean

Wow, look at the color extraction you already have on the Sabrevois!


----------



## rgecaprock

Apple,


I love your life !!!!! You must be so happy to be doing what you love on a daily basis. The grapes look beautiful. Keep up the pictures!!


Ramona


----------



## grapeman

I have the sample results taken before we harvested grapes last week. These were from 1000 berry samples, crushed and juice plced in sample bottles and sent to Cornell Enology lab for analysis. We only harvested a relatively few of these and seeing the results, I think some could have hung on the vines a couple weeks more. The pH is generally still low. The TA is high in almost all of these varieties, but remember none of them are vinifera so they have the inherited higher acidity of their North American heritage. I have of few of the grapes above to work with, and now it gives me a better idea of what I have to work with, since I didn't test them all I have for pH and TA. Hopefully a pH meter will help with both tests.


Please do not read too much into these numbers as a true representation of what the varieties normally produce. Remember that it varies from every site and climate as well as time of harvest. I can see that I want to set my test lab up better than I have it now, since I have over 20 varieties to work with myself at some point in the future.



SampleVariety pH Brix TA g/L<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

1. Lousie Swenson 3.01 16.9 8.13

2. Prarie Star 3.05 18.5 12.2

3. St. Pepin 2.92 20.2 12.9 *

4. NY 76.844.24 2.67 17.1 12.5

5. LaCrescent 2.93 21.9 15.8 *

6. Petite amie 2.95 18.1 9.9

7. ES 6-16-30 3.00 18.4 8.8 *

8. <?amespace prefix = st1 ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficearttags" /><st1:City wt="on"><st1lace wt="on">La Crosse</st1lace></st1:City> 2.79 16.8 12.1

9. Edelweiss 3.10 14.9 6.5

10. Cayuga White 2.77 16.4 11.9

11. Vignoles 2.76 17.3 17.3

12. Baco 2.84 18.7 19.0

13. Landot 3.05 17.9 10.9

14. Noiret 3.05 16.2 14.2

15. Sabrevois 2.78 17.1 13.5 *

16. <st1lace wt="on">St. Croix</st1lace> 3.03 16.7 11.4

17. GR7 2.99 17.8 14.6

18. <st1:City wt="on"><st1lace wt="on">Marquette</st1lace></st1:City> 2.97 20.8 14.1 *

19. Frontenac 2.99 19.7 17.5

20. Foch 2.97 20.3 13.6

* The varieties with * are ones I got grapes from last week. All are actively fermenting at this point.


----------



## masta

All I can say is WOW!!!!



I thinking you might have to change your forum name to grapeman.


Are the stems not being removed going to cause an issue?


----------



## grapeman

Masta, ideally I would have a destemmer/crusher to destem before crushing, but they are a lot of money I don't have right now. I don't worry about the white grapes. I just crushed with the stems and pressed immediately so they don't sit on the stems anyway. The reds I crushed on the stems and tthen removed the stems from the must. It probably isn't ideal, but then it was done that way for thousands of years before destemmers were invented. It was a very messy job. I don't know how many times I rinsed my arms off Sunday afternoon after reaching into the blue tubs to grab stems out. I know I didn't get them all out, but try to remove them from the cap before punching down.


----------



## NorthernWinos

How are those wines coming along???? More pix would be nice.


Looking back at the photos of the juice in the buckets the Sabrevois makes my mouth water. The vineyard North of here that I visited last fall had some of those vines growing, wonder how they were this year....? I never made it up there this year, the owner is the local State Senator and he had a heart attack this summer....so don't know how he is doing with the winery...their sign is out on the Hiway so they must be open....


----------



## grapeman

OK NW here are a few pictures like you asked- nothing spectacular. A couple of the cap before punching down and one of the Leon Millot after punching down. Also just one of the whites, since they all look about the same. They are just rolling along- but you can't see the action in the picture- looks cool. Must temps are running about 8-10 degrees higher than my fermentation area - musts about 76- room 68 degrees. 


Marquette








Sabrevois








Leon Millot








ES 6-16-30










I'll post some more pics after racking.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## OilnH2O

Looks great! Just want to add that we're all enjoying this vicariously!


----------



## Waldo

AWESOME appleman or er uh..Mr Grapeman





As a rule of thumb, what is the desirable brix for a grape to obtain maximum color/flavor/nose etc.


----------



## grapeman

I just wish I had Emeril's smellivision here so you all could smell the house and aromas coming from all those primaries! Unbelievable. I was going to keep them in the garage or barn, but it was down in the 50's over the weekend and I was afraid they would start hard. I showed the Leon Millot after pushing the cap down so you can get an idea of the color. The other two reds are a lot darker even than that. I snuck that one in on you guys. I finished picking mine Sunday and started them as well. I also had to pick the LaCross and Chardonel and mixed them this year to make a couple gallon batch. I will get a picture in a few days of the Catawba's. They are starting to look really tasty. The brix was up to 16 today when I checked a few berries. 


How about a few of you guys updating your vines? I love seeing everyodies vineyards no matter what size. Doesn't matter if it's 1 vine in a pot or 100 acres. They are all different and unique!


----------



## grapeman

I don't know Waldo what is perfect! I guess that is part of the art, science and mystery of grapes and wine. I guess in general you want the grape as high in brix(up to about 26) as you can get it and still keep the pH about 3.2-3.8 and TA of whites about .6 to .8 and the reds about .7-.9. Given harsh environments like mine, we can't get that close especially with hybrids, so we make do with the best we can get. Some varieties are just more naturally aromatic than others. How are yours doing there in Arkansas?


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## Wade E

Very cool grapleman.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Richard - Will the Cornell experimental vines be tested again soon? Those numbers showed values that were not very close to optimal yet. You will have to offer your subjective impressions of the character and quality of those varieties you brought home and fermented when you have sippable wines. By the way, what is the capacity of your fermenting containers, and where did you get them? I should try to post several shots of my vines soon per your request, although there is little to see since my last posting. Leaves just look more tired on the second summer vines. The Marquette's, being first year, are looking great and heading to the top wire and beyond! I've been flagging more trees to take down during the winter which are shading my growing area. Thanks for your postings.


----------



## NorthernWinos

My vines are all picked clean now...so nothing to show but leaves....no frost yet so they still look nice, tho the leaves are loosing their gloss.


How do you think your wine from the Elmer Swenson 6-16-30 will be??? That is a vine that I was interested in as is is very hardy, it seems impossible to track down any, so Ifilled myrow with Louise Swenson, Prairie Star and Baltic Amber to try out for hardiness....the other Elmer Swenson vine Edelweiss isn't hardy here, so those vines I lay down in the winter....I think the grapes from the Edelweiss are great table grapes.


----------



## grapeman

NW, check out Northeast Vine Supply. Andy lists the vines at his site, but it says to call for availability. I'm not sure yet how the wine will be, but it sure has a lot of floral qualities in it, with a lot of fruitiness similar to St. Pepin. I'm fermenting with Cote des Blancs hoping to retain that fruitiness and keeping ambient temps in the low 60's(must about 70). If I had a lot of them I would try to ferment even lower and slower.
https://www.nevinesupply.com/whitewinevines.php


----------



## grapeman

I know you guys won't let me rest if I don't post a couple pics of the pressed reds, so here they are. Didn't get any in the carboys yet though. The Sabrevois was 80 pounds and yielded 6.75 gallons, so I got a gallon for a little less than 12 pounds- good yield. The Marquette was a little less than 10 gallons for 120 pounds so a little more than 12 pounds per gallon- also good yield. The color is great for both. I have some work to do with the acid. About ready to start malo-lactic on it to help that.













Sabrevois








Marquette


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## OilnH2O

All I can say is ... WOW!


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Have you ever seen a deeper red than that Sabrevois, looking good AppleGrapeman.


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## grapeman

JWMINNESOTA said:


> Have you ever seen a deeper red than that Sabrevois, looking good AppleGrapeman.




The Marquette is almost as dark. It just had a lot of foam on it when I took the picture. I had poured a bunch of must in and hadn't started pressing so the free run juice ran in fast and foamed up. It's hard to see a difference in color in the carboys. I will try for a few pictures in a few days of the carboys. The St. Pepin is already dropping the lees and the bottle of extra is about 3/4 cleared already!


It's real early, but I'm looking forward to next year in hopes of a good harvest from some of the first planted vines! That's the farmer/vineyardist in me. Always looking at next year.


----------



## Waldo

Man that looks good appleman!!!!!!


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## Wade E

Ill have some fermented and some to drink now to hold me over there buddy! Man that looks good. Going to barrel it?


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## grapeman

Don't have any barrels Wade. I should have more oak to add to it tomorrow though from George. I got a variety of toasts coming! I think some dark will be in order for it to help offset the acids. I wish they had been my own grapes. They would have hung another two weeks to bring up the brix and lower the TA, but hey, they only cost a couple days labor for 400 pound of them! I also get to experiment with grape varieties I have planted before mine begin to bear!


----------



## Wade E

Whats the total in gallons you got fermenting orcold soaking all together there bro?


----------



## NorthernWinos

Appleman....next year or so you will be measuring your grapes in tons....Hope you will still have time to post here and show us your progress.


----------



## grapeman

We'll see how many grapes I will get some day. For now I have to get the process down for smaller amounts before I worry about tons! Tonight I play mad scientist and check the batches to see how they are doing so far. I want to start MLF, but need to check to make sure the must is within range for it to get going.


----------



## Waldo

What malolactic culture are you using appleman? Did you make a starter?


----------



## grapeman

Nope Waldo- not that adventurous yet. I got a few of the liquid tubes from George -White Labs Yeast - Malolactic culture ML675. Just put a tube in 5 gallons and let er rip.... after bringing to room temps for 3-6 hours. Next year I will need to make some up since I will need a lot more.


I tried doing pH and TA test this evening, but need to get new kits for the TA. The Sodium Hydroxide has gone bad. I opened up a bottle that I got last year. After putting in the whole bottle and the pH only moving upt to almost 5.0, I decided it wasn't going to work!



I got out the little bit I had left in another bottle and that one gave me a reading of 1.1% or 11TA. This is one of the ones I am doing a MLF on. The pH was 3.44 for a red, not bad. I'll have to do more test when I get some fresh chems.


----------



## Wade E

Did you try the accuvin tests Rich?


----------



## grapeman

Wade, I did try comparing the Accuvin test also. It compared as close as it could- the scale for the Accuvin only goes so high. It is more for finished wines, or lower acid wines. These acid beast that we grow in the north need a good high scale until we get the acid down into the moderate range. I was really worried about the pH more than the TA. The malo bacteria only can take pH above 3.0 and the initial juice sample taken on date of harvest was about 2.78. Those little test papers are VERY hard to read on the darker reds. When I checked it yesterday with the calibrated pH meter, it was 3.44. That should work well with the MLF.


----------



## grapeman

I tell some of you guys that with those first year vines if they are small in diameter or get chewed back not to worry about trimming back to a few buds. I figured a picture or two would better demonstate this. Here area fewshots of the same vines. Once this spring from 5/29 and one from today about 4 months later. They demonstrate what I'm talking about. They had been pruned back to just a few buds since they were just rooted cuttings last year. Some of these vines I let have a very small crop on this season. In thethird picture, the smallest vines on the left were started this spring and weren't in the picture yet. We're starting to get a little fall foliage.








Later season-same vines















*Edited by: appleman *


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## swillologist

They look good appleman. Those should keep up busy for a day or sonext spring.


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## NorthernWinos

They really grew good for you....very well done.


How close together are your vines????


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## grapeman

Northern Winos said:


> They really grew good for you....very well done.
> 
> 
> How close together are your vines????




My vines are spaces 6-8 feet apart in rows 9 feet apart- depending on variety. Most of the ones in the picture are 7 feet apart.


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## grapeman

I got more grapes yesterday, but haven't taken pictures. I got the following: 


Petite Amie- white grape- enough for about 3+ gallons brix 22 pH 3.2 TA 8


Cayuga- white grape- 90#-6 gallons brix 20 ph 3.1 TA 10


GR-7- a Cornell Red - 45 #- brix 24 ph 3.2 TA 11


St. Croix- Red - lower brix-20 pH 3.15 TA 10


I spent part of the day crushing and pressing the whites and destemming and crushing the reds.


Both the GR-7 and St. Crois have extraordinary color. The GR-7 is a PITA to pick. The bunches have wings and tend to wrap around everything. I'm interested in how they turn out since I am growing the red varieties. I may see about adding the Cayuga to the lineup this next year if I can make a decent wine from it.*Edited by: appleman *


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## Wade E

Down here in Ct., Cayuga is one of the most made wines at all the wineries along with Cab Franc. Not to crazy about any of the red wines locally as I feel that they all come out weak.


----------



## grapeman

The Cayuga is really perking along continually and has been for 6 days now. I did rack it to secondary yesterday. 


The PetiteAmie has pretty well finished and is in the secondary.


From the post on the auto-siphon:

Today I pressed out 12 gallons of the darkest purple, best tasting red wine I have ever had the pleasure of making. I had crushed last weekend and left on the skins all week fermenting with Red Star. The color extraction was phenominal. I had combined 45 pounds of GR-7 and 80 pounds of St. Croix- both nice dark extracters. During ferment I had added 8 ounces of Dark Toast Oak Chips to the primary. Naturally I had to try the pressed juice and it is going to have great body, taste and mouthfeel. Anyway I racked to 2 carboys and really had to bring them up too far, but hey, it had fermented for a week so shouldn't foam much. I had decided since I lost the oak chips at pressing I would add 4 ounces to each carboy. All done and airlocks on. End of story.


Well not quite. 2 Hours later I went to check on them and the purple foam was streaming out the airlocks. How to get some juice out and into a small jug so It would stop. I know, the auto-siphon. So I got it out, sanitized and set to work. Drew out about a quart from the first carboy, all set. Now onto the second. Well it must have drawn in a small wood chip or something, cause no matter how hard I pushed nothing came out. OK, one, two, three, push harder. Well the hose blew off the cane and I sent the whole blast into my face where the purple juice bounced off all over the walls and floor and ran down my glasses and shirt. What a mess. An hour later I got it all cleaned up and finished. Seperate load of wash and I'm glad I had on old clothes. At least they all match now- nice and purple!


Purple disaster stageII:
I checked in on the carboys a couple hours later. Foam coming out the airlocks worse than ever with little puddles around each one! Back out comes the siphon and a primary bucket this time. I went to take the second airlock and pulled on the stopper......pppppffffffff. More wine blew allover in my face. This time the oak chips had plugged the airlock hole and pressure buit up. When I removed it it was like an air cannon loaded with wine! I drew off enough for about 1/3 empty in each and am hoping it stays within its confines. All together I probably only lost about a pint of wine, but it is the messiest pint you would ever want to see. My hands are still purple. The stains just won't wash out! Guess it is time for the mudroom floor to become purple!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Wow, is this a true story? It makes me cringe to hear of it. I don't want to picture what a similar occurence would look like here in my wine room, aka my wife's kitchen. What was your SG at the time you pressed? I would guess around 1.0 if it was fermenting for a week, unless you kept things cool. Great news regarding your wine quality, and a great lesson for the rest of us to keep in mind!

What else is fermenting or settling?


----------



## NorthernWinos

Look on the bright side...someday you'll have matching purple teeth and tounge....




And it will be so good! 






* How about some photos of all those carboys.*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

bilbo-in-maine said:


> Wow, is this a true story? Absolutely True- I have blue/purple hands and a stained floor to prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What else is fermenting or settling?




Wine in various stages from my grapes or from the test plot.
Cayuga -6 gallon
Chardonel -1 gallon
LaCrosse -4 gallons
ES 6-16-30-3 gallons
St Pepin -3 gallons
Petite Amie -3 gallons


Frontenac-3 gallons
Leon Millot -2 gallons
Marquette -9 gallons
Sabrevois-6 gallons
GR-7/St. Croix mix -12 gallons


I was going to do a few gallons of Catawba, but the coons and deer ate 99% of them on me. I am going to pick Niagara in a few days and may do a few gallons of that. I might do some Concord, but will likely just make jelly out of those with all these better wines going.

*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Do you anticipate needing to adjust chemistry on a lot of your listed wines? I remember the starting numbers on many were low on Brix and high on acid.

Do you have some Noiret coming next spring?


----------



## grapeman

I'm working on the acid on the worst reds right now. They all have malo added to them to help bring it down. Any additional adjustments will wait until I see how they turn out. The whites are not too acidic and if I need I will probably sweeten them a little. 


No I don't have Noiret coming next spring. I put in 25 this year and they did great.



They are right next to Corot Noir, St. Croix, Savrevois and GR-7. I know I posted a picture of them somewhere. I'll check tomorrow and see if I can fing a picture of them.


----------



## swillologist

Sounds like it might be better to oak when it is bulk aging. Do you think that would work as good?


----------



## grapeman

bilbo-in-maine said:


> Do you have some Noiret coming next spring?




Bill I thought you might be interested in part of this newsletter. Scroll down and there is some info on Noiret canopy management.


http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/grapesandwine/pdf/Veraison%20to%20Harvest5.pdf


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Good article, thanks Richard. I guess I knew you had some Noiret in the ground. What training system have you started them on? Also, did you see any disease tendencies? I checked with Andy Farmer today but he is not handling them - he commented that he feels they are pushing the boundaries of cold hardiness where he is. If you care to send me maybe a dozen when you prune, let me know! Thanks again for citing the article.
Bill


----------



## grapeman

Andy seems to favor Elmer Swensen and the University of Minnesota varieties over Cornell varieties. I know he has seen them because we looked at them together this summer. They aren't super hardy - about 50% primary bud survival at -17F I believe. No problems at all with them this last winter and the vines needed a fair amount of pruning this spring when I helped. I can send you some after a while this fall if you have a way to overwinter them until starting time. Being first year vines , what I prune off pobably won't be hard enough for winter survival. As a last resort I could probably find you some harder wood in the spring from an alternate source



.


I only put up the lower fruiting wire this year and let them grow up the bamboo stakes and trail onto that wire. I will probably cut back a lot in the spring-depends on diameter and # of buds alive in the spring. I am leaning towards 4 arm kniffen with them. If they trail too much with that, I could go totop wire cordon in the future. At Willsboro they were trained up over the top wire and allowed to trail down. Even with no canopy thinning, they did very well. I'll let you know more later after the leaves die and fall- sometime in November.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Appleman - did you taste the Marquette grapes? I planted a few this year and am interested in what you think of the 9 gallons you have in carboys.


----------



## grapeman

Well of course I had to taste them! Naturally they aren't a table grape, but are actually quite tasty. Sugar is acceptably high for wine, but under my own conditions I would have let ripen a little more to about 24 brix or so. Acidity was moderate and pH good for a red. The grapes have a definite cherry aroma and taste to them with a hint of spiciness. I will give you more details as the wine develops.


----------



## grapeman

Well we got a freeze last night- the exact night I had predicted a month ago. It was 28deg and everything was totally covered with frost. The ground that had been recently worked was frozen a quarter inch deep. The vines don't even look like it was that cold. The most tender ends have withered and turned brown in the rain this afternoon, but only the las foot of the vines and only here and there. I guess autumn is about here!


On another note, I have to do up some more wine tomorrow. I went down to help harvest grapes again from the trial. I brought home 175 pounds of Corot Noir(probably about 12-15 gallons), and 155 pounds(10-12 gallons)of LaCrosse. I also got some more Mars seedless grapes- about 15 pounds. I also brough home and delivered about 150-200 pounds of Baco Noir for another guy that normally helps a lot who couldn't make it today.


I don't have the juice results yet or any pictures. I will follow up with them tomorrow as I process them. I'm not worried about leaving them overnight in the bags, it's 45 degrees out. I think I will have to be bottling more to free up some more carboys. I hadn't figured on getting these, but nobody else showed up to help today(except for the project manager and his wife) so I had to bring them home.


----------



## Wade E

Poor guy, I feel for you having to bottle up some of your batches to make room for all those new batches!



Dont worry, some of us will come up there and help you drink it next year!


----------



## grapeman

wade said:


> Poor guy, I feel for you having to bottle up some of your batches to make room for all those new batches!
> 
> 
> 
> Dont worry, some of us will come up there and help you drink it next year!




I'm running out of bottles to put it in. I may need to just attach myself to a sipon hose or IV and empty to 6 gallon carboys. One a day should do it!


It would be great if a bunch of you could come up next year!


----------



## NorthernWinos

WOW....sounds like fun. You are really living a winemaker's dream. 


Photos of all of your carboys, wines etc....will be fun to see.


*Edit...still no frost here...get's to about 33*F...have had snow and frost on the roofs, but the vegetation is still green and flowering...Sun finally came out for a whole day...



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## Wade E

Good idea NW we want to see "your wine making area" and all of its contents!


----------



## grapeman

Patience there Wade. I am going to get some pictures, but don't get too excited about my room. I start things in the garage for the bigger containers and the others are in a spare room that doubles as a mudroom/storage space. I have plans for better in the works, but that will have to wait until next year before I get it up to speed. It takes time to convert an old barn to an acceptable working environment. Once done it will be much roomier.


If I had another few gallons of the Corot Noir, I could try using one of the blue primaries for a secondary. It has a locking seal to the lid. They hold 20 gallons. I'll see how much there is after I get it pressed. I will probably just try 3 different carboys with different treatments. May try3 differnet yeasts and variations of cold soak along with oak. Or I may just make one big batch and keep it simple. I already have about 15 different gallon to 6 gallon carboys going!


----------



## jobe05

It's not the "Wine Room" thats most important.....

It's most important however to have room for your wine!


----------



## grapeman

I got a fewpictures for you, but didn't have time to get pictures of all the carboys lined up. I know I don't have room to line them all up in single file anyways. I will get some soon. The stomach bug was going around here the last couple days and Cindy ended up with it after just being in to remove the one kidney stone that was about 3/4 of an inch.


The LaCrosse grapes are about 22 brix and very juicy- haven't tested pH or TA yet, but are down nicely. The Corot Noir grapes are a late season grape here and even though they are starting to drop some berries, the brix is pretty low at 18. They may not be well suited for here. The pH and TA I feel are very workable. They have nice tannins and a lot of cherry taste.




LaCrosse















Corot Noir- four bunches- average a bit over 1/2 pound per cluster












Corot Noir in Primary- I got 2 of these 1/2 full or so.









*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## Wade E

Wow that looks good man!


----------



## NorthernWinos

Looks like a barrel of jam.....bet your fermentaion area smells great with all those batches going....?


----------



## grapeman

I just did the analysis on the LaCrosse and Corot Noir. As expected both are very workable.
LaCrosse
Brix - 21.8
pH- 3.2
TA- 8.8 or .86%
Today I pitched Cotes des Blancs yeast.


Corot Noir
Brix- 17.8 (will need adjusting up to ~23 brix)
pH- 3.3
TA - 8.25 or.825 %


I see that at Cornell during development they used EC-1118 yeast and fermented ont the skins. I'm cold soaking for four days and then will use either Pasteur Red or EC-1118, maybe one of each. They used MLF on most of the tests with similar beginning acid and pH.


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, when you say "cold soaking" just how are you doing that? In the regular white buckets (that show in the pic's?) or something else?

Dave


----------



## grapeman

Yup, just the buckets they are in. Highs have been 45 lows in the low 30's since last Saturday. No need for special treatment. I had to bring them in the house this AM to warm up so I can add yeast tonight or tomorrow morning.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Ah, you're sure having some fun this autumn (but is there time for anything else?)


----------



## grapeman

I am sure having fun this fall bilbo. I have quite a selection of grape wines going. I better get used to working with many varieties, since I have 20 or so varieties growing now. As I see which ones do better than others I will probably replace the less desireable ones with ones I like better and do better. I'm getting more hands on experience with growing the vines and making the wines!
I have 13 different grape wines going right now, although only 12 actually since I combined the St. Croix and GR-7. Almost time for some pictures if I can find time to line them up neatly and get some photos. Most of the whites are getting pretty clear already and will need racking again soon. I can't wait so I can taste them again.


After being down to below 30 again this morning, the leaves are starting to yellow a lot and some are brown and brittle. Soon they will be dropping. Which is probably good to get the deer out of them. It's starting to look like a barnyard with tracks between the vines. Almost time for another harvest



That's another thing I find time for.


----------



## grapeman

There was a definite killing frost last night. The vines had been hit a few times the last 2 weeks, but it was down to 25 last night/this morning. The vines now have that dead look to them and the leaves are falling rapidly today. I was noting yesterday how much better the vines look this year vs last year for hardening off before the frost. They have much more brown wood this year, with only that last foot of the vines remaining green in color. That will all be pruned off anyway, so hopefully they are in good shape going into winter.


How is everybody else doing for frosts and freezes. I saw the first snow flurries of the season yesterday. I'm already looking forward to next year!


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Similar here - 28 degrees this morning, lots of leaves down on the ground making for a big cleanup job. YES! we are looking forward to next year. I'm getting ready to take on the fungi head on. I have my Stylet Oil on the shelf, hoping that I won't need the Elite, and Sevin at the ready. The Lime Sulfur dormant oil is next to them for a dormant spray in late March. PM got kind of bad here at the end of summer. Even the new vigorous Marquette vines got it. But the level of trouble seems to vary year by year. Maybe next summer will be kinder.


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## grapeman

One word of caution Bill. Any sulfur and the stylet oil don't get along well. It would be best to apply with two different sprayers if at all possible. If there is any sulfur residue when you spray the Stylet, you can burn the vines bad. 



The vines got so hit by the freeze today that even my wife noticed the leaves were dead and falling off today- and she hardly ever notices much out there. Here's wishing you a great season and harvest next year. 


How is the Frontenac bulk aging



?


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## NorthernWinos

Was 24*F here yesterday morning...that was the first hard freeze we've had....It had froze all night, there was 1/4 inch of ice on the horse water and the bird baths were froze for part of the day...Beautiful today, in the 60's, sunny and calm.


Most of the leaves are off the vines now, tho the Frontenac are hanging on the best. We have had a lot of wind this fall...took it's toll on all the leaves, some before their time.


Looking at those vine this evening...days like this I wish I could trim them now so they'd look better.


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## grapeman

I finally got aroung to burying up the 25 Cab Franc vines today. It is supposed to be 40 today(not there yet) so I grabbed the shovel and went to hand bury them. The ground was too frozen to use a plow of any kind. After lots of effort I was able to more or less get them buried. I had been waiting for the leaves to drop before buring but by the time they had the ground was frozen. Next year I will bury sooner whether or not they have lost their leaves.


I racked the Sabrevois and St Croix/GR-7 Mixture carboys today to get them off the oak and most of the lees. I think they have plenty of oak tannins now so I wanted them racked, but they are just now going good with MLF so I tried to leave a few lees in them. They are tasting very good for young fresh grape wines. I used heavy toasted oak this year and think next time I make these I will use medium oak on them. I will rack the rest of them next weekend when I get more time and ambition. 


The white wines are all doing well and I have racked them all and they are just about spotlessly clear. I will set some of them in the garage this coming week to see if any of them want to drop crystals since they were fairly high in acid. 


Sorry no pictures- just not much to see at this point.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Rich - Is this the first season for your Cab Franc vines? You have so many varieties that there's no way to remember how old each variety is. I imagine you are burying them since they are pushing it in your locale. I'm curious because I have thought about adding them here. I concluded that I'm too cold in winter and the ripening season is too short. Burying the vines is the solution to the cold obviously. Lengthening the season is a wild card.




Great to get the updates on your wines! My interest comes from the harvest numbers being a little out of whack on so many of your grapes since you didn't have much control of when they were picked. I really want to hear about acid reduction results if you'd care to report them. Keep up the good work.
Bill


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## grapeman

Bill this was the first year for the Cab Franc. I also believe I am pushing it, but then I know somebody growing them a few miles away and they haven't died yet. With the heat we have here in the summer, they will ripen- how well is to be determined.


I will fill you in as I get more numbers on the acid.


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## OilnH2O

Interesting too, is the local vinyard here (Ten Spoons) who has the Foch, St Pepin, Millot, and others (but I don't recall Cab Franc) doesnt bury his vines at all. Another vinyard to our north (on Flathead Lake) doesn't bury his acre of Pinot Noir and commercially harvests them every year. We've got about 8" snow on the ground (from a week ago) and more coming, according to the WX folks.


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## NorthernWinos

Did you remove them from the trellis and put them in a trench??? Did you mound up around the trunk???


The tender vines that I am growing I have on a heavy wire panel and lay the whole panel down and cover with straw....It's been working so far.


I am wondering about the Frontenac vines....they say they are good to -30*F...we can have harder winters than that.


Going to get cold here the next few nights, like 10 to 15*....maybe 2 inches of snow tonight.....Ho -Humm...winter hascome.


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## grapeman

I'm going with the tough love method. The vines are on thier own. I'm only concerned with the rootstock, graft and first few buds this year. I only mound the earth above the graft union. They do it this way up to the north in Quebec and have grown vinifera for 30 years or so. I will trim back to the first few buds anyway next year, so I don't care if the main vines survive or not this year. I am hoping for some good growth next year and will train low shoots which I can lay down on the ground next fall and bury. The fruiting growth will develop off that the following year. I need to see if they will mature here well or not also. I give them about a 1 in 4 chance of still being in my vineyard in a few years.


I wouldn't worry too much about the Frontenac. If they don't make it there, not much will and you have been growing grapes there for a number of years now.


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## NorthernWinos

Ihave an olderlarge Frontenac vine, the first year I laid it down, last year I let it hang and didn't get many grapes off of it this past summer...Was kind of disappointed in the yeild...Now I have about 8 vines...So time will tell if they winter over and produce.


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## grapeman

It is supposed to bear even after -33 deg F. What could also prevent it from bearing well is if it hadn't been pruned and got very bushy. The buds need good light exposure to turn vegetative buds to fruiting buds. If you didn't prune last year and light couldn't get in well, you wouldn't get much fruit this year. That's one of the biggest reasons we need to be hard on the vines and prune them back a lot every year. Some of the vines that lean more towards the wild vine parent will produce a good crop even if left unpruned. Frontenac is very vigorous and seems to bear better if pruned back quite a lot every year.


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## NorthernWinos

I'll try to remember that in the spring...perhaps refresh my memory. 


The vines I have that are crossed with Wild Montana grapes produce so much vegetation and fruit...really amazing plants...very rewarding.


The most vegetative vine I have is King of the North..It is a cross between Concord and Rapina [what ever that is]....It is awesome how much this plant grew last summer...I hesitate to plant any more as they might take over the rows. 


Meanwhile...outside it is snowing and blowing like crazy, fairly warm tho...this storm is suppose to be short lived....Strange how we are thinking about grape vines on an evening like this, meanwhile I browse my seed and plant catalogs....think I'll go downstairs and adore my little Black Currant cuttings and stoke the fire....First real almost-winter night of the year.*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

Northern Winos said:


> The vines I have that are crossed with Wild Montana grapes produce so much vegetation and fruit...really amazing plants...very rewarding.
> 
> 
> The most vegetative vine I have is King of the North..It is a cross between Concord and Rapina [what ever that is]....It is awesome how much this plant grew last summer...I hesitate to plant any more as they might take over the rows.




They are a cross between Concord and Riparia- which is another name for native wild grapes from the midwest regions- very cold hard and just what I'm talking about. They are very vigorous and tend to overproduce, but since they are early they ripen anyway.


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## grapeman

I got out this AM and got a few pictures of the vines trained to VSP this last year to show how they did. You can see the skeleton with the leaves off. Most of them did pretty well and will be pruned in the spring back to the cordons and the few extra shoots pruned out from the main ones. My automatic pruners have showed up in force now that hunting season has ended. I'm letting them eat a few apple trees worth of apples I saved for them. They are real late apples and keep well, so I left them on a few trees to give them something to eat besides my vines. 




Chardonel - Two Years Growth on all these vines below















Leon Millot
















Enterprise Apple








Just a few visitors were here.................




























*Edited by: appleman *


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## swillologist

Appleman did prune them back some last spring? I need someone to post some up close pictures of which buds you leave and which ones you remove. In other words I need a lesson on pruning.I have been pruning mine but I'm not sure I am doing it right. I didn't get many grapes last year. I want to make sure it was the weather and not my pruning.


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## grapeman

These vines had been pruned back almost to the ground last spring. They had been one year old and weren't very hardened when it froze, so the buds had died back a lot. Once they started to grow vigorously they were trained to the fruiting wire to start to establish the cordons. The upright shoots were trained up through the wires. When I prune in the spring, they will be clipped off almost to the wire giving a T shape to the vine. The buds grow back from that and fruit off the first couple nodes of the new growth. As spring arrives next year I will post more pictures of what the vines look like at that time. I have several types of pruning and training going on, so you can choose what suits you and your varieties. 


I would suspect it was the Easter freeze you experienced that made for a light harvest this last year.




Check this picture. The row on the left is the Chardonel and the others are the Leon Millot shown from a different angle. If you look closely on the first couple vines you can see some of the dead cane before I clipped them off after seeing no growth. This picture is from this spring-check the date. What you see above is all new growth and training from this spring and summer!





*Edited by: appleman *


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## swillologist

Thanks appleman! I am hoping you are right about the freeze. That is mysuspicion too. Most of our fruit didn't bear very well this year. But my pruning is just a guess. I have no idea what I am supposed to be doing. Any help would be appreciated.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Very nice Rich! I see a lot of double trunks. Have you found them to beneficial? Have you lost a trunk yet?


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## NorthernWinos

Very nice Appleman...You are certainly doing a great job on pruning.


One of the only things I like about winter is seeing the 'bones' of the vines and trees....the silhouettes of vines and trees against the snow is quite pretty.


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## grapeman

I do like the insurance of the double trunk. If one gets hit, just let another bud develop as a replacement if no viable shoot is already there. I haven't lost any yet, but it doesn't hurt to have a little extra insurance in our harsh climates. It looks like this winter will be a true test of the hardiness. How is you late autumn going there in Maine?


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## NorthernWinos

Don't know about your temps...but ours are brutal....



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" align=center><T>
<T>
<TR vAlign=top align=middle>
<TD width="11%">*Tonight
*




Mostly
Clear
Lo -22°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Saturday
*




Sunny

Hi 0°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Saturday
Night*




Partly
Cloudy
Lo -16°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Sunday
*




Sunny

Hi 6°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Sunday
Night*




Partly
Cloudy
Lo -11°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Monday
*




Mostly
Sunny
Hi 14°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Monday
Night*




Partly
Cloudy
Lo -4°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Tuesday
*




Partly
Sunny
Hi 12°F</TD>
<TD width="11%">*Tuesday
Night*




Partly
Cloudy
Lo -5°F</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

This is only December 7th...wonder what January will bring....Then wonder what vines will bare fruit next year....At least we have snow cover to protect the roots....Noting but hardy vines can make it up here on 'de-tundra'..... *Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

I like our forecast better NW, not quite so cold. 



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" align=center ="Basic"><T><T>
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 11px; FONT-SIZE: 11px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; COLOR: #ffffff; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=160 height=40 ="vbgC">Forecast Conditions</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=70 ="vbgC">
<DIV ="whtVerdanaText10">*High*/Low °F</TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=60 ="vbgC">
<DIV ="whtVerdanaText10">Precip.
Chance</TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 2px; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 11px; FONT-SIZE: 11px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 2px; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff 1px solid; COLOR: #ffffff; PADDING-TOP: 2px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff 0px solid" vAlign=center align=middle width=140 ="vbgC">&lt; style="FONT-SIZE: 10px" =".location='?dp='+(this.s[this.edIndex].value)" cM1="3" cM3 cM2="0"&gt; &lt; value=htempdp ed&gt;High Temperatures</> &lt; value=ltempdp&gt;Low Temperatures</> &lt; value=precipdp&gt;Precipitation</> &lt; value=windsdp&gt;Wind Speed</></> </TD></TR></></T></T></T></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><T><T>
<T>
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<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=60 height=25>
<DIV ="blueVerdanaText12">*Today
Dec 8*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
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<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=36></TD>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">AM Clouds / PM Sun</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">32°[/B]/8°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">20% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">32°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px">Learn to Keep Heating Costs Down</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=65 height=25>
<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Sun
Dec 9*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">PM Snow Showers</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">24°[/B]/17°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">30% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">24°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"></TD></TR>
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<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
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<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Mon
Dec 10*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
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<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=36></TD>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">AM Snow Showers</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">28°[/B]/12°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">40% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">28°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"></TD></TR>
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<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Tue
Dec 11*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Cloudy</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">29°[/B]/22°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">20% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">29°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px">Plan Your Escape From the Cold</TD></TR>
<TR>
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<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Wed
Dec 12*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Cloudy</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">30°[/B]/15°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">20% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">30°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"></TD></TR>
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<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
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<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Thu
Dec 13*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
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<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Mostly Cloudy</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">22°[/B]/18°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">10% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">22°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=290><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=65 height=25>
<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Fri
Dec 14*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=36></TD>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Partly Cloudy</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">31°[/B]/15°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">10% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">31°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px">Protect Your Plants From the Cold</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=290><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=65 height=25>
<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Sat
Dec 15*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=36></TD>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Partly Cloudy</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">27°[/B]/12°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">20% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">27°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=290><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=65 height=25>
<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Sun
Dec 16*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=36></TD>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Cloudy</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">28°[/B]/21°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">20% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">28°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px"></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=center width=290 colSpan=3 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg">
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=290><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left width=65 height=25>
<DIV ="blueVerdanaText11">*Mon
Dec 17*</TD>
<TD vAlign=center width=115>
<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=105><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=center align=middle width=36></TD>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center width=69 ="blueVerdanaText11">Snow Shower</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD width=65 ="blueFont10"><B ="blueVerdanaText11">27°[/B]/17°</TD>
<TD align=middle width=50 ="blueVerdanaText10">60% </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #e3e1c7 0px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: #e3e1c7 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 20px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e3e1c7 1px solid" vAlign=top align=left width=150 height=67 ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg">



<B style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">27°F[/B]

<DIV style="PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; PADDING-TOP: 3px">Get the Latest Flu Reports</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top align=left>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 11px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" vAlign=center align=left height=24 ="vbgA"></TD>
<TD vAlign=center align=right ="vbgA">



Printable Forecast </TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE>
<DIV id=TFB>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD align=middle></TD>
<TD align=middle></TD>
<TD align=middle></TD>
<TD align=middle></TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE>*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Balmy Appleman!


----------



## jobe05

I like ours better: Sorry to you folks up north.................

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><t><tr><td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290"><t><tr><td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="60"><div ="blueVerdanaText12">*Today
Dec 8*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Partly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">64°[/b]/45°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

20%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">64°F[/b]
<div style="padding: 3px;">Check Flight Delays

</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Sun
Dec 9*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">61°[/b]/51°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

20%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">61°F[/b]


</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Mon
Dec 10*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Partly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td> 
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">76°[/b]/51°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

10%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">76°F[/b]


</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Tue
Dec 11*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Partly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">73°[/b]/53°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

10%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">73°F[/b]
<div style="padding: 3px;">Car Care Tips

</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Wed
Dec 12*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Mostly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">76°[/b]/49°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

10%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">76°F[/b]


</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Thu
Dec 13*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Mostly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">64°[/b]/37°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

20%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">64°F[/b]


</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Fri
Dec 14*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Partly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">56°[/b]/33°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

10%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">56°F[/b]
<div style="padding: 3px;">Check Flight Delays

</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Sat
Dec 15*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Scattered Showers</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">53°[/b]/33°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

60%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">53°F[/b]


</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Sun
Dec 16*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
<t><tr> 
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Rain / Snow Showers</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">49°[/b]/37°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

60%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

<td style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px 1px; padding: 20px 0px 0px;" align="left" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/graph__10day.jpg" height="67" valign="top" width="150">




<b style="font-size: 12px;">49°F[/b]


</td>

</tr>


<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(227, 225, 199); border-width: 0px 0px 1px;" ="http://.weather.com/web/common/s/1X67px_10day_.jpg" height="67" valign="middle" width="290">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="290">
<t><tr>
<td style="padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" align="left" height="25" valign="middle" width="65"><div ="blueVerdanaText11">*Mon
Dec 17*</td>
<td valign="CENTER" width="115"> 
<table style="border: 1px solid rgb(227, 225, 199); : rgb(255, 255, 255);" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="105">
 <t><tr>
<td align="center" valign="middle" width="36">



</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText11" style="padding: 0px 3px 0px 0px;" valign="middle" width="69">Partly Cloudy</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>
<td ="blueFont10" width="65"><b ="blueVerdanaText11">57°[/b]/32°</td>
<td ="blueVerdanaText10" align="center" width="50">

10%
</td>
</tr>
</t></table>
</td>

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## NorthernWinos

I vote for Jobe's for a weekend party.


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## jobe05

Bummer......................

I just bottled my Strawberry Port, racked the scupernnong and blackberry and sweetened the blackberry wine.......... then cleaned everything up........

Should have waited for ya'll to show up!





Bring it on, we have plenty of food and wine!


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## Wade E

Well, now that everything is all cleaned up we'll be on our way Jobe!


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## grapeman

You cheated Jobe and took the forecast from early September! Party!Party! Party!


Everybody take a trip to Jobe's place!


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## grapeman

I spent a good deal of the day today moving the white wines out in the garage to cold stabilize them. The temperature out there is cose to 32 deg F so two weeks out there should do it. I needed to rack a few more of them off the lees that had settled out. The cold stabilization will help to precipitate out excess acids as crystals in the bottom. After they have precipitated the crystals I will need to rack off them while still cold. It helps the wine to be more stable and prevents crystals and hazes when the wine is cooled later before serving. 


I needed to replace the water and K-meta solution in the airlocks with some anti-freeze. I chose vodka since it doesn't freeze easily and is harmless if some backs up into the carboy of wine. The wines continue to improve the older they get. All of them have a lot of fruitiness to them- thanks to using Cotes Des Blanc yeast and the type of grapes. They are still a bit tart, but the cold stailization should help. I plan on sweetening them just a bit to accentuate the fruitiness and they should resemble a good Reisling when done. They all have subtle differences but all are quite good. Even the Chardonel is coming around nicely, but has a bit of a haze to it. If it doesn't clear with the cold treatment, I will probably use Super Kleer on it.


I took pictures today of them all lined up and will post them tomorrow.


I also need to rack a few more carboys of reds off oak. I was waiting until MLF slowed down on these last few, but don't want to leave them on the oak much longer.


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## grapeman

Here are the pictures of the whites I moved yesterday. Some of them I racked after the picture was taken. They are already dropping solids and got hazy from the cold. It was 14 outside this AM, running right at 33-34 deg at the carboys. The weather looks favorable this week. 



































*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman......Thats a lot of good looking wine. Which one is your favorite????


Hope your temperatures hold....Our frigid air is moving on out...not sure which way it is headed. Keep an eye on your babies


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## jobe05

They look great appleman.

How much "below 32" will you garage ever get, and how much of that will the carboys take?

We are in a warm spell right now down here, 74 degrees out right now and I spent the day out tilling up the garden. Suppose to be that way till toward the end of the week, then we get a cool down, low 30's at night and mid to upper 50's during the day. I'm thinking of putting the carboy covers on and throwing them outside for a few days to help clear and throw off some wine diamonds.


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## JWMINNESOTA

Awesome Grapeman! What a shine those have!They look....HAPPY!


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## BonnieJoy

Appleman - I agree with Northern Winos. What a great looking batch of white wines.


Do you have any photos of your reds yet? How's the Marquette tasting now? Anything like its grandparent, the noble pinot noir?


My vineyard, "Blossom Ridge", is finally getting planted next Spring on a 2 acre tract I bought this fall. Will have mostly Marquette, Noiret, Vidal, Traminette. 


I have 15 vines still in the 5 gal. buckets they grew in this season whileI tried to find suitable land. I left theblue-x grow tubes around them and filled both the top of the bucket and tubes with enough mulch to cover the grafts. I'm concerned aboutroot damage as the buckets are above grade and only protected from the north winds. The garage never freezes, so I did not move themto itfor fear the vine's dormancy period would get messed up. Would you have any advice on winter protection?I'm in Fort Wayne, IN. where winter temps are not as consistant as up state NY.


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## grapeman

They all taste great already. I can only imagine what they will be like after just a touch of sweetness. They all are very fruity, but I think it's a toss up between the St. Pepin and the ES 6-16-30 for my favorite. The St Pepin's main flavor is a strong apricot where the ES 6-16-30 is a definite Pineapple. The temps stay pretty stable Jobe because it is insulated behind the pegboard. I have both sidewalls done full length with pegboard and those heavy duty shelves. The temps are supposed to be stable for the next week to 10 days so it should be just about perfect. They won't freeze until it gets in the low 20's. The carboys don't care about temps as long as the wine doesn't freeze and expand.




I look forward to you starting a thread Bonnie. How many vines do you have planned for this coming year? I racked off the rest of the Reds today- 6 -6 gallon ones and 3 -3 gallon ones. I did rack the Marquette today Bonnie and the tast is good. Now that you mention the Pinot, I can definitely say it has some of that in it. I was wondering about the earthiness. It has a good flavor, but so far I think the Corot Noir will be the winner for tastes.


The Corot Noiralready shows cherry, vanilla and chocolate overtones. What a delightful taste treat. This one so far blows away any of the Amarone wines even. 


The Frontenac is OK, shows lots of promise if the acid is controlled. You get a definite nose of fruit with it- a grapieness I guess you would describe it.


The Leon Millot is also tasty, but lacks the intense colors of most of the other reds I have this year.


The Sabrevois is going to make a really nice dark red/purple wine. I can see that I will want a light toast with this one- it really sucked up the dark toast oak and tastes like it came straight off the grill.


The GR-7/St Croix combination wine I did is one of the more tasty wines. It seems to complement each other with lots of cherry coming through, just a hint of foxiness for smell and vanilla rounding it out.


Most of these are looking like MLF is about done on them. I can say that it definitely was worth it, bringing down the acid on these wines and adding a touch of butteriness to them all. The Corot Noir seems to have taken on the most dramatic flavor intensification with the aid of the MLF. I'm looking forward to the next tastings of all these. I must say though after testing them all, that I had a bit of a buzz going.


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## NorthernWinos

Apleman...those wines all sound really nice.


The Elmer Swenson's ES 6-16-30 is one that might survive up here.


Thanks for sharing your notes.


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## grapeman

I guess we will be having at least some snow cover this year in the vineyard. The temperatures are running closer to normal too this year-different than the last two years. I am actually glad becauseof this. It will give us a truer indication of the survivability of the vines I have planted. I would rather have the less hardy ones die off in the first couple years than have them go 5 years and then die off. That way I can make better decisions as to which vines I should be growing here. I took some pictures this morning of the vineyard, but they didn't come out great because it was snowing again. Here are a couple though.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Rich - That's JUST the way mine looked today. The snow was pounding down, sticky snow that has covered every non-vertical surface as it circled in off the Gulf of Maine. Very slow going around here today. The ground is well blanketed by now, and the frost is almost non-existent which is great!


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## swillologist

Appleman are those the tracks you made so the deer could help you prune.


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## Waldo

Mighty fine looking batch of wines appleman.


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## jobe05

If I were there, I would complain about the snow, but the one thing I couldn't complain about was that view! Very pretty setting with the pines in the background. I like snow covered pines in the winter....


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## grapeman

The weather has been very cooperative for cold stabilizing the white wines. It has warmed back up nicely with highs in the 30's and lows not much lower. After 3 weeks, I took the time today to rack the 6 gallon carboys of whites off the tartaric crystals. After racking and cleaning the carbooys of the crystals, there was about a half cup of crystals from each6 gallon carboy. The pH is running right at 3.4. I haven't rechecked the TA yet, but with that many crystals it is bound to be lower. I think after these are sweetened lightly, they will be good. There is 6 gallons of Cayuga and 12 gallons of LaCrosse. I will do the 3 gallon carboys soon and check all the TA's and pH and adjust if needed before degassing and stabilizing. Here are some pictures. 






Crystals in the bottoms of 3 gallon carboys-differing amounts.










Racking off Cayuga






Cayuga after racking off crystals.






Crystals on the bottom of the carboy.








Crystal from the side.










1/2 cup of crystals per 6 gallon carboy.






Hope this has been educational.

*Edited by: appleman *


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## Wade E

Very, thank you!


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## BonnieJoy

Appleman I'm only planting 80 vines at "Blossom Ridge" this Spring. There will be three rows of reds, 1 of whites. I've had some successful veggie gardens, butgrapes will be a new challenge. Thanks to those who have been posting their experiences out on this site. You've given me the confidence to planta small vineyard. I can't think of anything much more rewarding than participating in the entire life cycle of grapes from earth through its evolution as a wine.


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## grapeman

That's great Bonnie! 80 vines is no small undertaking in itself. It will give you a good deal of wine when they get bearing well in a few years. 


What varieties are you considering planting? I don't remember where you are from. Give us a rough idea and we could help you choose some. Start yourself a thread and share this information with us all so others can benefit from your experiences as you gain them. As we build this area of the site, it gives others confidence to follow.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Thanks for posting Rich. Please do check the TA and let us know how it moved. The pH is close to right where you want it! And now for the reds...


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman.....Great looking wines you have there, brilliantly clear. How are your reds coming????


Bonny Joy....Good luck with your future venture...hope you are living in a hospitable climate and can grow some real wine grapes.


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## grapeman

Happy New Year All. 


Here is a little slideshow from the Vineyard. It is a condensation of 2 years growing, from vines to wines. Sorry about the music looping.


http://abcdraftingservices.com/images/PhotoStory3.wmv


It will take a while to open. If it doesn't open with Windows Media Player, you will need to open it with whatever video player you have. Hope it works OK. It tests out OK on my end.







PS This is the same video as the one in the General Chit Chat.



*Edited by: appleman *


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## swillologist

Have you tried the Cayuga yet? How doesit taste? I planted a sampling of those here. How many vines do you think it will take to make a six gallon batch? I have three vines right now. I have two vines of Fredonia. I made a batch with those last year(2006). That was a good year for grapes herethough. I can start some new ones if I need to. *Edited by: swillologist *


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## grapeman

The Cayuga tastes very good for a hybrid. It makes a good wine for coolish climates. You want to harvest at a brix of 17-20-no higher. Above that the pH goes way up and it can develop funky tastes. It makes a very popular semi-sweet wine. Mine is very dry right now and tastes fairly good. It's very popular with a lot of women semi-sweet/off-dry. 3-6 vines should easily make a 6 gallon batch for you.


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## swillologist

Thanks appleman. Happy New Year!


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## grapeman

Here is a slideshow put together quickly in Photbucket. Nothing Fancy just random shots from the vineyard this past summer.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/?action=view&amp;current=ec6b783f.pbw


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman...that was a great presentation...


You've come a long way baby....Very well done indeed...


Let me give you the clap...


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## BonnieJoy

Nice slideshow


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## grapeman

I am getting the itch to get out and start some pruning but I guess I have about a month before I can. As you can see from these pictures I have some work ahead of me to get them where I want them. The short little sticks on the right in the first pictures are black currants. I'm hoping to get some this year for some wine-time will tell. 


I also would like to get some cuttings going in the mini-greenhouse. I guess it might be a while longer to find it. Oh well........ 


Not much to see with these, just killing a little time.






Is it pruning time yet?






















Time to take a few cuttings.........








Where did I leave that shovel?..................*Edited by: appleman *


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## bilbo-in-maine

Hey Rich,
I felt the urge to get out in the vineyard and get some photos too. Take a look at my thread...
You're right, you have some serious pruning ahead, plus some waiting time to let all that snow disappear.


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## NorthernWinos

You guys sure have a lot of snow...Ours seems to be all blowing through the air today...It's white out there...but the sun is out.


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## grapeman

I would really like to start pruning, but it is still a bit cold. Here it is the last day of the month in a leap year- February 29 th and we had one of the coldest nights this year at minus 8 degrees at our place- much colder in the outlying areas. Saranac Lake was at minus 28 degrees this AM. It's not NW's bone chilling temps, but still cold enough for me! Come on spring!


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## grapeman

I gave up today. Not a lot to do and with the sun out it felt really nice in the orchard and vineyard. I pruned a dozen apple trees, but was going blind looking up into the sun with the reflection from the snow. I decided to rough prune one of the rows of Leon Millot since they are trained VSP and the vines don't need training much which might break the bark on them in the cold weather. I got the row done and they look pretty good. I didn't weigh the vines, but it looks like about 2 pounds of brush per vine.
Here are some pictures.
























Unpruned Vine










A Buffalo Vine-appropriate name- kind of hairy isn't it!
I will train long canes to the top wire when it warms up.








Several Buffalo


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## rodman

Appleman, you either have a lot of snow or your cordon wire seems to be lower than I expected. I am curious because I just set grapes out last spring and have my cordon wire at 36". If you have that much snow cover I am glad I don't live where you do, and how did you stay on top of the snow to prune.


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## grapeman

LOL rodman. The wire is at about 36" also for me. We have about 2 feet of hard packed frozen snow. It just won't leave! When we got the 4" of sleet and it froze solid, it makes it so you can walk anywhere without sinking. I had to do a lot of bending to clip them. I cut them long for now since we are still having cold weather and will finish prune them when it warms up more.


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## grapeman

Just moving the pictures ahead so folks can see them.






appleman said:


> I gave up today. Not a lot to do and with the sun out it felt really nice in the orchard and vineyard. I pruned a dozen apple trees, but was going blind looking up into the sun with the reflection from the snow. I decided to rough prune one of the rows of Leon Millot since they are trained VSP and the vines don't need training much which might break the bark on them in the cold weather. I got the row done and they look pretty good. I didn't weigh the vines, but it looks like about 2 pounds of brush per vine.
> Here are some pictures.
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> Unpruned Vine
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> A Buffalo Vine-appropriate name- kind of hairy isn't it!
> I will train long canes to the top wire when it warms up.
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## rodman

Oh boy, that some snow! That was the other reason I asked, I could not figure out if the snow was that deep how you didn't leave any tracks.


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## NorthernWinos

I saw the dogs break through the crust on top of the snow today....So I won't be going out there for awhile...plus the wind is blowing relentlessly.

My vines not only need trimming but placement as well...so will have to wait for a more pliable day....this is a tough time of the year...You want to do something, but the weather and conditions don't allow...

Appleman....Have fun playing in your vineyard...


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## bilbo-in-maine

My snow depth looks exactly the same! but I can't walk on top. We didn't get the same amount of sleet. I think I'll wait several more weeks, although the waiting IS hard. Temperatures are remaining stubbornly cold.

Rich, are you pruning to two buds in general?


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## grapeman

Right now I pruned long to several nodes. I will clip them to probably 2 buds per spur where they exist and let shoots develop where they didn't last year. I figure I can get some crop that way and still develop better cordons in the end. It was just a start while I wait for better weather and less snow.


By the way bill, I broke the forum I showed you to upgrade to a newer version. It just didn't want to convert, so I deleted the database and will need to start again. Not a big deal, not much of anything in it yet.


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## bilbo-in-maine

OK, thanks


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## grapeman

We lost a lot of snow today after picking up a bit yesterday. The temperature hit 65 this afternoon and is stil 60 at almost 7:00. Tomorrow in the mid 30's. The bare patches are growing more all the time. Winds have picked up to a steady 30 mph with gusts expected to 60 mph. That will help drop it some more. Then after tomorrow in the 30's it will be in the mid 40's for the rest of the week and weekend. I'm hoping in the next week I will be able to prune in earnest. I have 50 Marquette vines shipping April 14. I hope the snow melts by then so I don't need to hold them too long. Now all I need to do is figure where to put them..........


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## BonnieJoy

Appleman - Have you tasted your Marquette &amp; Corot Noir wines lately? Just wondering how they're progressing.
Our Indiana winter has been crazy this year, too. One day it could be 10 degrees, the next 50 ish. I got my few little babies pruned during a warm spell last month.I was relieved to find that they werebedded well enough to appear anaffected by the drastic weather changes. 


Have some Marquette cuttings started from the trimmings. My Double A order arrives a few days after yours. Getting really excited about planting them at my new homestead at Blossom Ridge.


Thanks for posting your vineyard on this forum. It's been fun watching you develop it.


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## grapeman

Thanks Bonnie. I did try a very small sample of them before I set out for cold stabilization a month or so ago. I must say they both are very promising. The color of both is great. The Corot Noir has plenty of tannins to make it have good age potential and has no foxiness at all with hints of cherry and a nice vanilla base. The Marquette has plenty of vanilla at this stage and some fruitiness also. I don't detect any of it's American heritage in it at this point and think it will be vey good also. I am resisting bottling yet to age a bit in the carboys, but have gotten set up to filter and bottle with a pump.


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman....could you please Post some photos when you start bottling all those grape wines....You have shown us their progress since picking...so don't let us hang.

Glad your getting your vines pruned...

I am scared mine might start 'bleeding' from the ends before I get out there.

My Honey pushes snow in the yard up all winter with the tractor, lines the perimeter of the yard with a berm of snow...so, still have huge snow banks along one side of the garden...two other sides drift up quite a bit....so am surrounded by snow banks out there. Might venture out there today before it gets muddy between the rows....can't get a wheelbarrow in there to haul off the trimmings, so will have to just let them lay.


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## grapeman

Today was pruning day at Willsboro for the Hardy Grape Trial. Steve Lerch from Cornell got a head start yesterday after driving up from Geneva. He had a few rows done out of 10 to give us a head start. It was a horribly nasty day. It started out raining as I arrived. Steve joked and said maybe I should go back home because I brought it with me. He had me finish collecting up the bird netting that hadn't been removed last autumn. We had left it on to keep the birds out of the Vignoles so they could be used for icewine. Nobody ended up getting them because it snowed so much. Anyway I was soaked to the skin after manhandling all those 2000 feet of netting into garbage bags. 


It continued as a mixture of rain and snow all morning and changed to snow about 12:30 so we broke for lunch at a local eatery to warm up. We went back and finished up at about 5:15. I got quite a few pictures today and will post them as I get time. 


Tomorrow we are going to a local vineyard to get demonstrations of rescuing overgrown and neglected vines. Should be interesting. I will try to remember the camera and hope it is dry by then.


Here are afew teaser pictures.




Marquette Before











Marquette After










Vineyard Before Pruning








Vineyard After Pruning














I should be thankful I didn't ty pruning at home today. When I got the 30 mile north to home, there was 3 inches of sloppy wet snow to greet me on top of what we already had.












Here is a slideshow with more pictures. There are duplicates because I resized some.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/?albumview=slideshow*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Thanks for the photos Appleman....Nice to see how the pros do it.

How does the landscape fabric work in the vineyard???? It sure works well in shelterbelts...wish we would have had that option when the County planted our shelterbelt....

Looks like your weather went from Bad to Worse for you today....It will get better.


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## grapeman

The fabric cuts down weed maintenace issues. There are still some weeds come through it where there were holes punched in it by deer before we got the deer fence up. I bet you don't think you massacred your vines too badly today after viewing these pictures! We pruned them as severely last year and still had 12-25 pounds per vine depending on variety. Some vines had over 4 pounds of one year wood pruned off.


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## bilbo-in-maine

A beautiful sight! (but not the snow - I've seen enough for several years) Is there an experimental spray program to accompany the experimental vines?


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## grapeman

It was a busy day here today. It rained 3/4 inch yesterday evening and overnight and temps were in the 30's all day yesterday. Today it was actually nicer than the forecast said. I got to about 50 and had some sunshine. I was able to go out in the vineyard and prune for a couple hours. I could only work my way half way down the upper block on the north side. Past that there was a bit too much snow and where there wasn't snow, there was a foot of mud. The frost will be gone in a few days and it will dry right up. Hopefully by next weekend I can finish up pruning. The sap was really running from the cuts today. I will post a few pictures tomorrow or Monday when I get a chance to download them. 


I also was reworking my vineyard sprayer to spray the denser vines I expect this year. I replaced the spot sprayer with a 110 gallon tank on a saddle. I replaced the electric pump with a hypro pump to have increased flow rates to feed an extra 4 nozzles and agitator. I will get a couple pictures of that tomorrow when I get the control valve mounted and the hoses all hooked up the rest of the way.*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

I got my sprayer finished up today. I converted it to 110 gallon tank on a saddle. I replaced the undersized electric pump with an 8 roller Hypro pump run off the 50 hp tractor. I went from 6 nozzles to 10 nozzles- 5 per side. You drive between each row and it sprays one side on each side of the tractor. Then you go up the next row repeating. That way both sides of the vines get well coated. When you get to an outside row where only one side of the tractorneeds spraying, you turn off the one side with the control valve. I also put a handgun on it so I can spot spray and maybe spray my outside apple trees where I cant get good with the airblast. Someday I will weld a stand on the bottom of the sprayer. Until then I just set it on cement blocks when detaching from the tractor.






Here is a slideshow showing the little bit of pruning I did yesterday. These vines are all Verticle Shoot Positioned vines. I cut back to 2 canes, which will become cordons. I left spurs where they are and more will develop this coming year. This is an easy way to prune and goes very quickly. It does take a while to pull the cut canes out of the wires. When I prune the cane pruned 4 arm kniffens, I will make another slideshow and you can compare the differences. The sprayer is the second half of the slideshow.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/Pruning/Sprayer%20and%20Pruning/?albumview=slideshow


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## NorthernWinos

Thanks for the photos....That sprayer will sure get the job done....Nice set up.


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## grapeman

It must be spring now! The snow is melting quickly and will be up into the 60's and close to 70 all week. I am pruning as I can get more spots where the mud has gone away. Also my deer friends are home. They went somewhere else to yard up for the winter since we had 2-3 feet of snow on the ground all winter. Saturday evening there wer 3 I saw in the apple trees. Last evening I was busy pruning away with my head looking towards the vines I was pruning. I happened to look towards the apple trees and there was a half dozen of them browsing along. They must have figured I was browsing in the grapevines and posed no threat to them. 


This evening I went back out to see where I could walk without sinking up to my backside. I pruned a row of year old Frontenac. That was easy- just clipped them back to the wire or 3-4 buds, depending on their size. Next I hunted around and finally settled on a row of Buffalo grapes that still have about 8 inches of snow. Not too bad there half way down and then too muddy. I have to say these are the MOST VIGOROUS vines I have ever seen!. I will try to take some before and after pictures before I prune again to finish them. I tried to prune them to about 4 canes about 4-5 feet each as a 4-arm kniffen. That required removing about 6 pounds of new wood per vine. 8-10 canes per vine about 20-30 feet each was the norm. Also lots of shorter canes. I knew they grew like weeds last year in their second year, but that is ridiculous! I'm curious how they will bear this year.*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

What a difference two weeks makes around here. Went from snow and cold to a week straight of 65-80 degree weather. It has been over a week now with no rain or snow. 


I finished up pruning all the vines over the weekend except the ones planted last year. They will go quick. I can walk anywhere in the vineyard now without sinking and there are only a couple spots around the edges with any snow at all. 


I used several types of pruning and training methods to try to accomodate varying growth habits of the vines. The Buffalo, St. Pepin and LaCrosse all got trained to 4 arms. I did this to try to spread the canopy a bit and they are all at least somewhat trailing in growth habit. The St. Pepin is a pistillate variety meaning it must be pollinated by anothe variety- so you leave extra canes on it to give an adequate fruit set per vine. The LaCrosse is similar in growth and right next to the St. Pepin so I trained it the same. The Buffalo is just plain a very vigorous vine and I wanted to spread it out some. Two wires are at 32 and 68 inches giving a 3 foot distance between them.


I trained the Catawba and seedless varieties to an Umbrella Kniffen system. This gives a good canopy with air around it and helps slow down teminal growth beyond the downward bend. This is the method used at Willsboro on all our trial varieties.


The Leon Millot, Frontenac and Chardonnel are all trained to a VSP system. Hands down, the VSP is the easiest to prune for, but takes a lot of extra wire and fasteners. It spreads the canopy out if you thin it some during the season but requires an ongoing training into the catchwires.*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

I had to do a sudden spray for Steely Beetle-or grape flea beetle. Overnight it went from no sightings to about 5 on every 3 vines. They feed on the swollen buds- that's right, we entered bud-swell today also. I lost almost the total Concord crop last year in two days from the Steely beetles. They destroyed almost all of the primary buds before I discovered them. I got to try out my new spray rig - what a pleasure. It took me 15 minutes tops to spray the whole acre of grapes. With no canopy yet, I just sprayed every other row(because the sprayer sprays both sides- 2 rows at once when little canopy.


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## swillologist

I'm glad you caught them early this spring. 
The wind was blowing hard enough to dry you most of the weeping. This is the only one I could find this morning.








No bud swell yet. Some of the plums are showing color in the buds.


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## Waldo

What do you spray with appleman?


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## grapeman

Waldo it is just plain ole Sevin- good for all kinds of chewing insects. I'm hoping enough stayed on the vines yesterday because we had a few small showers overnight. I will need to check on them after a while later today and see if they are gone.


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## grapeman

The Sevin seems to have done the trick on the Steely Betteles. I couldn't find a single one tonight. Yahoo! I saw enough of them today though at Willsboro. For those of you that don't know yet, I am working two days a week now at the Willsboro Research Farm which is part of the Cornell System. Today and tomorrow are work days there. We have reached the spray threshold for IPM(Integrated Pest Management) on the Steely Beetles. I couldn't put on the Sevin today because of stiff winds off Lake Champlain- really choppy today.


I got a bit more sunburn today, but had a great time.


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## Waldo

I have been studying, with some interest, the practice of erecting bat houses and using them for insect control. Any experience out there


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## swillologist

I have had one on the back side of the barn for a couple of years now. I don't think anyone has made a home yet. I do see them flying around the light at night close to where the house is. They are in the area.I may have to move it to a tree.


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## bj4271

Waldo,


I had read where they eat 100x more mosquitos than purple martins, so I built a couple &amp; hung them in trees &amp; when my wife bought one in your area I hung it also. I had seen bats around before &amp; since; but have never seen any going or coming to the houses.


When the frowth of one tree caused one fo the houses to fall it had no sign anything had ever used it. Who knows?


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## grapeman

Just plant things near that old haunted house and you don't need to worry about having bats- they are already there. We have bats living somewhere near here, but you can't locate them. It's pretty freaky watching them swooping around at almost dark catching bugs.


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## rrawhide

hi all
we had a board on board redwood house for 25 years and had lots of bats. we even had bats in our belfrey!! since the wood moved during the different seasons there were lots of gaps between the boards. we tried everything known to man - from bat electronic repellers; chalk; rags; tape; cats and dogs, bat experts and even shotguns!!! . finally we called the local college and also did a survey online and found out that the only way to rid your self of them is to exclude them. there are lots of treatments but all are expensive. SO now we have a Hardie Board sided house!!! and no bats. the good thing tho was when we had the bats we did not have many bugs or mosquitos. NOW we have bugs and mosquitos around the pool area. House looks great but now have to build a couple of bat houses and hope to get a few back. alas - never happy are we? good luck!!!


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## NorthernWinos

We lived in an old house when we first got together....The bats use to tumble out of holes in the eves about dark...freak out your guest. The house smelled horrible in the summer....

During the night sometimes you would hear...woo-wooo-wooo.....[sound of the bats wings]..Then...thump thump thump...[sound of cat running across the floor]...Then...thud....[sound pf cat catching bat]...then...crunch...crunch...crunch....[sound of...you know]

Once a bat was flying through the house....my BIG strong man was in the bathroom screaming like a girl....I went out to the garage and got a tennis racket and knocked it down for said cat.

We had a bulldozer come and push that house into a pile to burn it....when he demolished the house there were bats laying on the lawn...I can live without bats!!!


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## grapeman

I'm glad it cooled off to slow things down a bit, but it can slow down slowing down. It was down to a hair under 32 deg this AM and is expected to be even lower tomorrow morning. I was checking things out this evening and some of the grape buds are opening up slighly, the apple blossom clusters are early pink and the Black Currant flower clusters are showing. We don't want things to freeze too badly here at this stage. I got my 50 Marquette vines yesterday from Double A Vineyards and have their home all laid out but will wait until at least tomorrow evening to start planting them.


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## grapeman

Our temperatures got down to a bit under 30 last night and the town nearby set a daily record low at 28. I hope it didn't adversely affect things. I know it warmet up to about 55 today and things really grew especially the grass. Tonight is supposed to be a bit warmer- we will see. I planted just a few of the Marquette this evening. I still don't trust the cold tonight. I will plant the rest this weekend if nothing come up.


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## Joanie

The fruit farmers around here weren't worried about the temps we had last night... about 29. They get worried when it gets down to 25 and lasts an hour or more.


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## grapeman

I guess all the heat we had the last couple weeks really brought things on a lot. I had a visit today from a gentleman from southern Vermont. He came to see my sprayer and we were looking at the grapes. He noted that even though where he lives is the warmest spot in Vermont, my vines were a good week ahead of his(he has about an acre of vines). It's going to be a rainy weekend- perfect to plant the Marquette.


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## Joanie

The peaches were in full bloom when we had the freeze and as tender as peaches are, they came through it okay.


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## grapeman

We certainly don't want to lose those wonderful New York State Peaches! Let us hope that was the last real cold spell for those peaches!


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## Joanie

Speaking of peaches...I have enough for 5 more gallons in the freezer. I guess I should start that!
*Edited by: Joan *


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman...nice map...glad you said to enlarge it to see the varieties.

You could use a little color out there...even red and green to show the color of the fruit would be nice.

Well done.


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## grapeman

The color will have to wait until I have more time. I can make the circles filled with a solid transparent color so that the text will still show.


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## grapeman

The vineyard is waking up and showing signs of regrowth after a long and protracted winter. It is always nice to see those signs of growth and rebirth. Here are just a few pictures of some vines sheading the cloak of winter and a few apple blossoms to boot. 































Bloom Time










And "Currantly" the currants are blossoming quite prolificly.





*Edited by: appleman *


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## swillologist

Things look good appleman. It looks like you have caught up with us here. Things are in about the same stage. We can't seem to get warm and stay warm. We are in the low 40's just about every night and 50's or 60's during the day. Things just don't move along very fast that way. I think the apricots made it through the freeze. It looks like they are starting to develop. A week or so more and we will know for sure.
I do have a batch of sweet corn coming through though.


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman....everything looks beautiful...bet the air is just humming with bees pollinating all those blossoms.....

We are having another beautiful sunny day....got to get out and enjoy it.


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## grapeman

iI expected you to comment on the bee in the Wine Garden post. I was trying to show the bumble bee activity in the blossoms, so was clicking random shots and captured that one in mid-flight. I thought I got pretty lucky. The apple trees are pretty. I drove by the orchards in Peru NY yesterday but hadn't brought the camera with me. I met with the Northeast Fruit Specialist from Cornell at Willsboro. He stopped on his way up to Peru to photograph the orchards in Peru. There are thousands of acres of apple orchards there and are really quite a sight in full bloom when the sun shines.


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## NorthernWinos

Hope you have some honey bees too....It must be really pretty to see so many acres of trees in bloom.


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## grapeman

I haven't seen a ton of the honey bees this year, but there are hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of colonies of bees around the Champlain Valley. I never have a problem with pollination except in extreme weather. We have a lot of native bees around.


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## grapeman

***********************************************************


I sampled 10 varieties of wine this evening from the grapes from Willsboro last fall- 6 whites and5 reds- oops that is 11. I guess I samples too many. The whites are ready to bottle and I will need to sweeten a few of them because they were picked a bit too soon last fall. The LaCrescent, ES 6-16-30, Petite Amie, and St. Pepin all need a bit of sugar to bring the fruit back out more and take a bit of bite out. They are all good and fruity though. The Cayuga and LaCrosse were picked later and as such I believe stand out as is. They all have their own flavors-all good. All the reds have their own attributes and are quite good for non-Vinifera. I think in the future I will back off just a bit on the Oak, but in a year in the bottle, I think they will be super. The Corot Noir has black cherry overtones and a nice pronounced hit of vanilla- and the color is unbelievable-almost inky. The Sabrevois has some vanilla with just hints of native grapes as well as the normal delicious flavors. The Marquette will be very nice with some age. A bit milder than the others and again hints of cherry and vanilla. I combined GR-7 and St. Croix- a nice blend. Just a hint of natives and a wonderful complex feel and taste on the tongue. Lastly I had some Frontenac from my own grapes. I used less oak on this one and I think it is excellent. It does have more acid than the others and the cherry flavors stand out.


It is supposed to rain this weekend so I will try to bottle some of them. We are having a grape growing Session on June 4 at Willsboro and they are ahving tastings of wine from grape varieties at the trial. I will try to supply a number of them to try and get some better analysis from some experts. There are several grape and wine experts from Cornell attending and speaking in the day long session. I am just the Site Technician for the trial at Willsboro. If I can get some feedback from the tasting, I will report it back here.


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## NorthernWinos

After sampling 10 or 11 wines how can you remember all of that????

They all sound good enough to drink.....


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## K&GB

Appleman,


Your posts are very educational to me because I've never heard or read about most of the varieties you mentioned. Thanks for sparking my interest. Looking forward to your feedback from Willsboro. 
Ken


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## rodman

Thanks for the updates on the wine. It is very informativefor me because I stated my small vineyard last year with Cayuga, Corot Noir and Sabrevois.Any information you have on Noiret and Traminette would also be helpful. Thiswhole topic has been agreat help!*Edited by: rodman *


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## grapeman

ken you probably haven't heard about them because they are mostly French-American crosses and other hybrids developed for cold climates since vinifera grapes don't do well in many areas of the country. A lot are developed at Cornell here in NY and the University of Minnesota and previously by Elmer Swensen- a pioneer in breeding cold hardy grapes.


rodman, I can give you information on all the varieties except the Traminette. From all indications it is an excellent grape, but probably just a bit tender for here. I have them tucked up against the north edge of the pine trees so they get extra heat and protection and no shade. Time will tell. I am thinking of growing them as head pruned and taking the canes off the wire for winter and then tying back up 3 to 5 canes the next spring. The snow protection may be all that is needed to get the buds to survive the winter. 










As an example of this, here is a picture of a Glenora black Seedless grape normally too tender for here. Note the multiple canes tied up in a rough fan shape.






*Edited by: appleman *


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## rodman

I have some mild concerns with bothTraminette and Cayuga buthope they will do okhere in N. Ohio.I had not heard ofthe head prunesystem you are showing in the last picture. I plan to use a scott henry as I am on productive land. What is your opinion, have I made a mistake going to this system?


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## grapeman

The Scott Henry system works well but requires a lot of work to establish, prune and maintain. It helps spread the canopy for better ripening. Myself, I would rather go with the Geneva Double Curtain. I wouldn't worry about Cayuga there, it does very well at Willsboro and we have been hitting about -11 to -12 there the last few years with very minimal bud damage. Other than somebody yanking a full grown Cayuga out by the roots to steal it, we haven't lost any at the site.


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## NorthernWinos

Someone stold a grapevine????


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## grapeman

Kind of unbelievable isn't it NW? I went down a couple weeks ago and there was a big hole in the plastic mulch and a hole in the ground. No signs of shovel work and a bunch of broken roots. Must have been a stong sucker to yank out such a big vine. The trunks are a couple inches across.


We are expecting rain for a few days so I went ahead and sprayed my vines this evening for a few bugs and phomopsis and black rot. The Frontenac are about 3-5 inch shoot and others aren't far behind. It's funny because down at Willsboro the Frintenac are still several days behind mine and the GR-7 and Baco are way ahead with a half dozen leaves open. Anyways, what a pleasure to spray with my new sprayer. It took all of 15 minutes to do it!


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## grapeman

It turned out to be a wonderfully sunny day today, about 70 right now so I decided to put off bottling and work outside today. I cleaned up a lot of weeds that the roundup didn't get earlier this spring in the grapes. I used the tiller and the hoe. Still more to do, but looking pretty good. 


About 10 days ago I dug up the 500 St. Pepin cuttings I took last fall. I put them in a tub of vermiculite and set in the greenhouse. They were sprouting buds pretty good and had calloused fairly well with a few roots.
I didn't want to break too many buds, so I stuck them in the ground today. 


Here is a picture of them in the tub












Here they are in the ground- about 500 of them(St. Pepin)
















Here are a few of the 1000 other cuttings started in zipsets. I found that my heat mat must get too hot because where I had 6 flats on it, none of them were growing except the ones that wouldn't quite fit on the mat. I will need to find a better way to provide 80 degree bottom heat for next year. I may set up a small demand water heater and pex tubing under the bench. I think I could control that easier and more accurately and warm the greenhouse at the same time.





*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

WOW!!!! You are going to have a HUGE vineyard....and very soon.

Very well done!!!!!


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## farmer

When I picked up my new vines from Winterhaven Nursery included with the invoice was this note. Are there other varieties that are patented and trademarked? I guess i thought a person could propagate for your own vineyard.




Am I missing something here ?


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## grapeman

Also when you purchased those varieties you paid a Royalty on those varieties. This goes towards the development of new varieties. Some varieties are actually patented to help protect the folks who spend so much time and money developing these. 


The Cornell varieties from NY are also protected. When you buy from Double A Vineyards they have you sign a non-propagation release form. That stipulates that you aren't supposed to propagate those protected varieties. They sell some that are protected, but don't charge premiums for yet. If those varieties are later named and released, you pay the going royalty rate for the ones already purchased. Some varieties you can propagate if you sign the agreement form and must send them yearly payments for those vines grown that year.


While we don't like these royalties, it is in my opinion a small price to pay for getting these newer excellent grapes. That's the reason why I don't ever mention me starting those varieties - you aren't supposed to. I propagate the better varieties that came out 20 years ago or whatever since these have come off from the premium list and can be propagated without extra fees.


Winterhaven's statement is just a drop in the bucket compared to the Cornell agreements. See the following link to one for Noiret.
http://www.rakgrape.com/pdf_files/noiret_grower_agreement.pdf*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

There really are 'Plant Police' out there. 

This year WalMart had a huge selection of bare root plants for sale in March...a friend and I were licking them up like candy...Then one day they were all gone. I kept asking the sales people and one gal said they got orders from the state of Minnesota that these plants were being 'abused'...in plastic bags with no refrigeration. I asked the manager too...he said they all got thrown in the dumpster that someone had a lot of power. I questioned why Home Depot across the street still had theirs???? And...WalMart in Fargo and Grand Forks across the state line had theirs????? ...No one seemed to know any answers.

That sure was a waste of the best selection of bare root plants they have ever carried.

Then there is the Monsanto 'RoundUp Ready' patent on the corn and soybean seed that farmers buy.....we can't even sell our left over bags of seed to other farmers....they keep track of how many bags of seed you buy and use. You can not use any of your own seed out of your bins under any circumstance. We can't even give a few buckets of seed to the neighbors to plant a deer food plot.

Too many regulations.

*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

The vines continue to come out of their deep slumber and harken the warmer temperatures. The Frontenac are the most advanced at my place with shoots about 3-5 inches with 5 leaves and the inforescence clearly showing(flower buds). The American varieties that got hit so hard by the Steely Flea Bettles last year are almost as advanced, just a couple days behind. Time will tell- I may see a pattern with the Alden and Buffalo of excessive bud kill over winter even with the last few mild winters. It may be that they are still young and are more vulnerable to low temps. I will give them another year to redeem themselves and if they don't, I will need to replace them with something else.


The Cab Franc that I buried made it through the winter well and have shoots 3 to 5 inches also- but I don't really count them yet. I am seeing a lot of variability in the Traminette at this point. Some are just breaking buds and some have 2 inch shoots and a couple I am not sure survived the winter.


I worked in the vineyard yesterday hoeing , roto-tilling and running the harrow between the rows. The rows are clean for the most part now. I stripped lower buds as I went along on the older varieties that made good progress and are trained well now.


Here is some Frontenac vines to show their progress.


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## NorthernWinos

They look really nice....love seeing the little flower buds.

You sure keep your soil clear of weeds....Is that really sandy??? It looks like pure sand or is it a red clay??? 

Do you have to water or do you get dependable rain???


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## grapeman

It is genuine SAND. It is dry at times but the water table is only down 2-4 feet. Once the vines get established it isn't really a problem. The reason I keep everything as weed free as possible is to give the grapes the available water not the weeds. We generally get enough rains to allow things to keep growing, but I have had to water a few times with a hose the newly planted vines.


Something interesting I am noting is a panel of four LaCrosse vines. They are on one of the driest sections of the vineyard and last year they looked like they were suffering. It looked like they were either deficient in some micronutrient or possibly even had a touch of powdery mildew-maybe both. The vines just had a stunted look to them and never got a ton of leaves. Remember I say that light is needed to initiate the buds to form flowers for the next year. Well apparently the extra light they got from lack of excessive leaves made a difference. That panel sticks out like a sore thumb so far this year. The growth is twice as big as the rest of the LaCrosse and the shoots are just covered with flower clusters. I will need to monitor this phenomenon through the year.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Looking good Rich! Boy, I wish my Frontenac looked so good. They are barely showing any budswell, let alone breaking, and the same with the Fr. Gris. Last year they were first off the line. So, I don't really know what is happening with them. 
Like NW, I always marvel at your soil (er, sand). It looks just like a beach. Obviously, it is great for grape growing. Your vines sound like they are very happy. And, you are fortunate to be getting some warmth there. We are unusually cool this spring, and it is holding many things back a bit.


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## OilnH2O

Wow...what I'd do for some nice sandy soil!



It must be nice to be able to actually use a hoe without having it create sparks every time it hits the ground!!!


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## NorthernWinos

We have some sand and clay...add water...bake in the sun = bricks.

Then when it rains they will crumble if you get the clods at just the right time.


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## grapeman

We are getting some nasty weather outside right now. The temperature is down to 41 degrees and the wind is gusting to over 20 mph with light rain. The mountains have snow mixed in and it is the middle of the afternoon. YUCK!


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## NorthernWinos

Must be the crap-o-la we had for a couple days...hang onto your hat!!!!


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## OilnH2O

We had it before you, NW, but we're sending bright sun and warm temps your way now -- although the jet stream has another Pacific storm coming in on thursday. I imagine the sun will be there by then.


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## grapeman

I went out this evening the rub buds and shoots off the lower parts of the vines. Had to hold ontomy hat and froze my az....tec off. Man those Frontenac are really pushing- hope it doesn't get TOOOO COLD tonight! Some of the basal shoots were up to a foot long! Seems a shame to pull them all off, but it mst be done so I can have some MUST this fall!


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## grapeman

It has been three weeks since I posted those pictures and the vines have certainly progressed, but the weather has been coolish. We had first bloom last year on June 10 an I don't think it will be quite there this year, probably a few days later. The 90 degree weather along with the two and a half inches of rain this last week will certainly speed things back up. The vines are smoothing out the uneveness better, but there are some real laggards. I took the growtubes off the 50 Marquette vines I planted a month ago before this very warm spell to keep them from cooking. They are looking pretty good in my new "WineYard". Now if the grass dies again after I replant it, there will be something on that spot of yard to look at-especially after I build the trellis.


I will try to take some pictures later today if time permits. We are taking our youngest son to the local college today for an orientation session. Then later we will be having our oldes son's birthday dinner. Not to mention tending the vineyard- oh and mowing the lawn that is starting to resemble a hayfield!


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## Waldo

What are you going to do in your spare time appleman


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## grapeman

I'm taking a break from working in my vineyard today right now. It is up to about 90 degrees before noon so I got a bit hot from running VSP catchwires and then training under the full sun. I decided to take a bit of a break for now and post a few pictures I took yesterday. It was a bit too sunny so I can't show what would have been some good pictures. They came out too bright. 




First the currants continue to grow. The Titania are almost 4 feet tall now and covered with black currants.













The vines trained to the four arm kniffen are already starting to fill up. They are about a week away from bloom, but the heat may push that some. These are LaCrosse.








LaCrosse clusters not far from bloom. They stay pretty tight.










A bit too sunny, but this shows rows full length up to the little greenouse behind my office building-over 500 feet total. These are LaCrosse and St. Pepin with four arms(and in need of a bit of shoot pulling).










The Frontenac are going to be too vigorous for four arms. I trained 12 of them to four arms to compare with VSP. I want to see the difference in acid and brix comparing the two systems. As you can see the 4 arms is already getting thick.










The VSP will be much more manageable(these are some I strung wire for this AM)



*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

I had to split up the post due to the pictures not going any more in the first one.... so continuing on.... 


Here is another Frontenac already on VSP partially trained.











Here is a shot with 3 year Frontenac on right and 2 year Frontenac on the left.










And then a picture of my "Vine Yard" where I planted 50 Marquette in a spot the grass keeps dying in- remember this is almost pure sand up here at this spot.








Another view...










And Finally a shot showing I am running out of room. I guess next year I will need to move on to a bigger and better location for any vineyard expansion plans.







*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman.....It all looks mighty professional...

On your 4 arm Kniffen grapes....
How old are those plants????
How far apart are the plants????
Do you make a totally new arm each year???? From the main trunk????
Do you ever start a whole new [renewal] plant from the base???
How tall are your wires????

Full of questions aren't I????

Thanks!!!!


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## grapeman

NW I will try to answer the questions:


On your 4 arm Kniffen grapes....

How old are those plants????
They are only 3 years old.
How far apart are the plants????
7.5 feet apart.
Do you make a totally new arm each year????
Yes in all liklihood from a renewal shoot this year to become the cane arm next year. St. Pepin will be a possible exception keeping the cordon and pruning to spurs.
From the main trunk???? Yes. See previous answer.
Do you ever start a whole new [renewal] plant from the base???
I have one St. Pepin and one LaCrosse that I will need to renew from the base for some reason. They didn't bud out very well high up, but are good and vigorous at the bottom.
How tall are your wires????
The top wires are at about 6 feet.


As far as looking professional.... The jury is still out on that.


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## swillologist

They look pretty professional to me. They all look good.


With all the rain this spring my vines are going nuts. I don't know how many grapes to leave on my new vines to slow them down. The wind is doing the pruning on my old vines. I think it has just about all the weak ones broke off now.


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## BonnieJoy

All I can say is WOW, what an impressive vineyard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How many vines are you up to now? What do you want to expand to?


The heat indexin Indiana today was terrible. It drove meinto the shade in short order.We had some nice rains this weekwhich, coupled withhigher temps, sprouted the ryegrassI planted last Sunday.


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## bilbo-in-maine

It sounds like Marquette is a big hit in the Appleman household!





Things are looking great there Rich. What percentage of your vines were bothered by the orange goo, do you think? Has it settled down now with the heat you've had? The stuff finally has slowed its activity here, but only since yesterday with temps in high 80's. It looks like all of my Landot Noir are 90 percent dead, or permanently dormant. Frontenac are not much better. It is amazing to see the vigor on yours. I have to start to wonder if the lime-sulfur dormant spray in early April is the culprit. That application is the only difference between the health of the vines last year and this year. All in all, though, everything is slow this year, just as you've commented.


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## grapeman

Bonnie, I don't have an exact count right now of vines in the vineyard but it is around 750 between newly planted and 10 years old. The majority of vines has been planted the last three years. I finally have my Concord and Niagara vines trained semi-properly and the difference in grape clusters is amazing. The Concord especially is just absolutely loaded and the Niagara not far behind. These vines are about 10 or more years old. I moved them (actually I planted as cuttings from the old vines) here from my old vine location at that time, but neglected them until four years ago.


Bill, it has been a few weeks since I had the orange goo and it made the varieties with it worst very slow to bud out, but they are starting to catch up. The Landot at Willsboro were VERY slow to bud out also, but when they did, it was full speed ahead. Within 10 days they went from slightly raised buds to shoots up to six inches long.


I guess we have had more of the heat the last week than you have. We got nice and warm almost a week ago and have set new daily records the last two days and probably will again today since the old record is 92. It was pretty tough working in the heat the last couple, but I'm in the nice air conditioned office today. Both days made it to 95 here at our place with a bunch of humidity. I took the cuttings out of the greenhouse to give them a breather since it was well over 100 in there - my guess would be about 125 or more. It would take your breath away when you went in the door. I will plant the rest of them in the nursery as time permits in the next week. I have about 750 planted so far in the nursery and have about 750 more to plant.


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## NorthernWinos

So...what's this orange goo?????





Appleman....You'll have your winery/vineyard up to top production very soon and be the envy of the Forum....Hope you will still have enough time to keep us informed.

My oldest Frontenac vine is slow coming around...It was one of the ones that dripped from the ends the most. The King of the North and the oldest Beta were also drippers....I think it was because the arms of the Kniffen style training are very old and woody and I really lopped of some heavy woody ends....so will try and make new arms from the main trunk..or make a whole new vine.

I am a bit concerned that maybe Frontenac are a little tender for up here and leave hanging on the wires...now that I just planted a full row of them....only 9. All of my other vines with hardiness to -30 to -35* are grown on wire panels, lay down and cover with straw, they don't seem very productive either and am beginning to think I'd best replant with all the old fashioned extremely hardy vines.....So, it's waiting game...Wait another year and see how they grow.


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## OilnH2O

Looking great, Rich! And, considering how late things seemed to be earlier your vines have just gone great guns! (A far cry from here where it's "rain, rain, go AWAY! - only 55* so far today!)


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## grapeman

I took those pictures on Saturday afternoon. Here it is 2 days later and most of the vines are about a foot longer now. The Frontenac on VSP really took off. Some shoots are within inches of the top wire at 6 feet up. This morning they were just past the second wire- a difference of 10-12 inches since 10 AM today! I have a bunch of training to get done soon.......


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## bilbo-in-maine

Holy #*@&! That's some amazing growth. Well, I'll hang on and maybe be pleasantly surprised to see growth begin on the Landot Noir and Frontenac. 

NW - the orange goo I mentioned was (is) some sort of fungal infection that occurred at the pruning cuts. The cordon ends that you talked about on your vines were where I saw this happen very often, and also at many of the pruned spurs on the cordons. Even today a small number of cuts still ooze. Any buds that come in contact with the seepage just shrivel. Very frustrating.


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## grapeman

bilbo-in-maine said:


> Holy #*@&amp;! That's some amazing growth. Well, I'll hang on and maybe be pleasantly surprised to see growth begin on the Landot Noir and Frontenac.




That's what I said when I looked at them. I checked them out with the binoculars at about 10:00 AM and the tallest shoots were up to the next to last catch wire. I looked again at 4:30 and the same shoots were just short of the top wire 14 inches higher. Then I went out after dinner and the same canes were about 4 inches above the wire. HELP! I don't know how I will control these monsters! I better be careful if I go out there at dark, especially as I feel the tendrils wrapping around my neck!


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## BonnieJoy

Oh my gosh, that growth rate is unreal. If anyone can figure out how to tame those monsters its gotta me you. Good luck with that.


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## grapeman

One day later than last year- I have initial bloom in the vineyard. About 1/3 - 1/2 of the Frontenac shed their caps today and opened up in bloom. There is spotty bloom in the Leon Millot and LaCrosse. WHooo Hooo!!


It cooled down after the thunderstorms late yesterday. This morning was beautiful after the 3/4 inch of rain we got about 7:30 last evening in about 15 minutes time. By afternoon it was getting more humid again and in the low 80's- not bad!


I was trying to train some of the Leon Millot into the fixed catchwires of VSP. It was just too hard, so I took the staples out and attached a foot and a half of chain to the ends of the catchwires on one end. I attached bent nails at about 8-10 inches above the fruiting wire and hooked the chains as tight as I could pull them. Then I lifted the wires up to the nail and viola, most of the canes were trapped in the catchwires. I will retrofit the other rows in the next couple days and then do the upper wires the same way. There are still a few stray canes, but it is much more manageable now. Some of the Leon Millot canes measure(literally with a tape measure) 3 feet long.


I am also getting there with the nursery only 3 more rows(100 each) of vines to plant. I have 10 rows planted so far. I tilled between them this evening since the lambsquarter weeds were forming a carpet.


----------



## OilnH2O

I assume you're planting to a plan -- what and how many do you figure you'll have when you're fully planted? And, how many acres will that be? (Just curious -- it sounds great!)


----------



## grapeman

OilnH2O said:


> I assume you're planting to a plan -- what and how many do you figure you'll have when you're fully planted? And, how many acres will that be? (Just curious -- it sounds great!)




Plan?



I'm supposed to have a plan?






I will keep enlightening you all as I go. I need to keep just a couple things to myself



Basically I know some of the varieties I want to grow. I am expanding those numbers from cuttings but it will take a few years to get there. I'm hoping to plant two acres of vineyard next year. The the real fun continues.......


I am sipping on a nice off-dry fuity aromatic white wine right now from one of the varieties I am expanding. SG of 1.002.


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## grapeman

Bloom continues on with more and more blossoms shedding their caps, especially under the Frontenac. This afternoon to ground was green with shed caps and the air was full of an overpoweringly sweet pollen. I sweated out in the vineyard all day stringing extra catchwires, training and a bit of hoeing. Maybe I will get caught up in November! The humidity was overbearing today and I would break out in a sweat doing the least little things. The temps were only in the mid 80's, but the relative humidity and dew point were atrocious. Then at the stroke of 5:00 PM, the skies decided it was time to shed some of the moisture. We got 1.54 inches of rain in 40 minutes time- a very steady moderate rain that really added up!
I guess I won't be doing much else outside this evening.............


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## NorthernWinos

I remember weather like that when I lived in Toronto...kind of across the Lake...It would just be steaming with humidity and pollution...then heavy rains.


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## grapeman

My vineyardhadit's first bit of publicity today. One of the TV stations in Vermont sent a reporter out today for a story of local vineyards. They featured mine and one other for the story. At least there weren't a lot of weeds to embarass me too much. Now if I can keep them coming to report on the progress ofthe grapes to help enhance the visibility of growing grapes in our region....


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## Wade E

Were you wearing your Wine Makers Toy Store shirt???????


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## grapeman

Dang it, no I didn't. I never even thought of that! The guy called me and wanted to come right out and I was kind of busy at the time.


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## OilnH2O

That's Great News!

Does your local TV station have a website? Often, they will put their video stories up on their web the next day, so others (hint! HINT!




) can also view them.


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## grapeman

I checked yesterday to see if they had posted the story- but it wasn't there........


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## Joanie

Whooohooo! Appleman's a STAH!! Congratulations!

Can I have your autograph???


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## Dominick

very nice appleman!!! congrats!! 

very nice setup


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## grapeman

Thanks Dominick. I am trying to do the best I can with the limited area I have to work with- like everybody else here. Some have more and some have less room.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Pretty darn cool Rich! I'm with Dave - I'd love to see the footage if it is online. Wouldn't mind seeing the other guy's vines either for that matter




What was the station, one from Burlington?


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## BonnieJoy

How proud you must be. We all knew what a fantastic vineyard you've got growing. But, it's even nicer to have your accomplishments recognized outside of your wine-making circle of friends. Congratulations, you deserve the spotlight


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## grapeman

I was also in the local paper yesterday(just my picture). The article covered the conference my supervisor put on a couple weeks ago where we had speakers from the Cornell Grape program come and speak about beginning a vineyard and winery using cold hardy grapes. We had about 60 attendees from NY and Vermont. One couple was here from NJ. In the afternoon we went to the vineyard at Willsboro(I do the day to day work and maintenance on the vineyard). Everyone that sees the vineyard is a bit surprised how well they grow here in the Champlain Valley. 


Now if I can just get my vines under control and trained for the year I will be all set.


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## uavwmn

Appleman, gratz on your accomplishments!!! Great to hear!!


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## grapeman

I am taking a break from training for a bit so I thought I would post some pictures I took this AM. It is raining again and is becoming a real challenge to train when they are dry. It tends to spread disease more whn you work plants when wet, but it seems to rain all the time for the last two weeks. 


The Frontenac are just about done bloom and have a tremendous load on them. I know I will need to thin eventually but I will use the crop load to slow the vines down. The shoots are above the top wires, but I don't want to hedge yet. That would force laterals and increase the canopy to the point of being thick and dense. The pictures at the end of the slideshow with all the grape blossoms are St. Pepin- also loaded to capacity, but they are very pretty right now. I did this up in a slide show because I don't have a lot of time to mess with pictures. Hope you enjoy the shots.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/Vineyard/June21_2008/?albumview=slideshow


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## K&GB

Appleman,


Thanks for the slideshow. Great pictures. I really appreciate the effort you make to pass on your knowledge. Keep 'em comin'!


Ken


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## rrawhide

thanx Appleman

your posts are always appreciated - - - keep 'em comin'

take care of yourself - - -

my vines will be delivered Monday evening - - - 

everything almost ready - - - BUT - - - we are having a heat wave - - - 

it's 102 in shade right now at 1830 pm. - - - heat warning for the next 48 hours - - then a cold snap - - - into the mid 90's.

no rain until November earliest - - - 

rrawhide


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## grapeman

Sure, rub it in. You are baking in dryness and we are soaking in sog. Almost 6 inches now for June.........sigh. It is a good thing I am on sand, but, I had to dig some post holes the other day between downpours. I dug down 2 feet and went in to dinner when it started to rain. I went back out a while later to set the post and there was three inches of water in the hole. sigh.... 


I will ty to link from photobucket to see if they show up this time.
This one is St. Pepin- a white grape.






And a close up of cluster on the St. Pepin.








This is the Glenora seedless vine trained to a fan shape system.
javascript:void(0);








I had just got done training the vines into the VSP catchwires on the Leon Millot when I took this picute.








Here are some of the Frontenac vines gone wild from the heat a week or so ago. Now if only the rains will subside!






I will be thinning thse one of these days.






Well the test went ok for the copy from photobucket- let's see if they stay showing up or not.......*Edited by: appleman *


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## BonnieJoy

I agree with K&amp;GB - your posts are very educational. They help us novices a lot. I especially like how you include the reasons behind managing/training your vines. It would take most of us many years &amp; mistakes to figure it out.


I don't think there's any single crop as beautiful as a well tended vineyard. Cudos to you, Appleman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bilbo-in-maine

Rich, did you do a dormant spray this year on any of your vines?

You mentioned the wet weather and disease just now. Are you seeing some of the fungi, and if so, which? 

Thanks
Bill


----------



## grapeman

Bill I didn't do a dormant spray this year. I really didn't have much disease last year, just a few spots. I probably should go with a dormant oil, but haven't used it to date. I mention disease because it is ever present in the environment. Without diligent preventative sprays it is likely that we get disease manifesting in one form or another. The rains compound the problem because each inch of rain you get, the spray residue is halved. This reduces the effectiveness of the spray in disease prevention.


Tuesday we had visitors at the Willsboro Farm. A bunch of the personel from the Hort Department were visiting area orchards and farms. We were on their stops. Many interesting folks were there and they all were looking for any pests they could find- be it insect or disease. They all had their little magnifying glasses and using them. I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Julie Carroll from Cornell. She is a plant pathology specialist. We talked a bit about spraying with all the rain pressure we have had. We all hid out in the greenhouse for a while- during a downpour, then went over to the vineyard. After they all left at about 6:30 PM, I went back to work and sprayed the grapes. It remained fairly dry overnight to give the spray a chance to dry on.


How are your vines doing? Did the goo ever go away?


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## K&GB

Appleman,


Can you recommend a good book on viticulture? We're going on a cruise in a few weeks, and I expect to have lots of time to read.


I have about eight years to studyuntil I retire. Then I'd like to work in a vineyard and maybe plant one of my own. I have no idea where I'll settle, but we're considering Oregon or Washington.


Thanks.


Ken


----------



## grapeman

Ken, You can't go wrong with the tried and true book of From Vines to Wines by Jeff Cox. It is general information but most of it will be adaptable to almost any type of vineyard.
http://www.amazon.com/Vines-Wines-Complete-Growing-Grapes/dp/1580171052


----------



## K&GB

Thanks Appleman. I'll order a couple for the long flights and get free shipping.


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## bilbo-in-maine

appleman said:


> Bill I didn't do a dormant spray this year. I really didn't have much disease last year, just a few spots. I probably should go with a dormant oil, but haven't used it to date.  I mention disease because it is ever present in the environment. Without diligent preventative sprays it is likely that we get disease manifesting in one form or another.  The rains compound the problem because each inch of rain you get, the spray residue is halved. This reduces the effectiveness of the spray in disease prevention.
> 
> Tuesday we had visitors at the Willsboro Farm. A bunch of the personel from the Hort Department were visiting area orchards and farms. We were on their stops. Many interesting folks were there and they all were looking for any pests they could find- be it insect or disease. They all had their little magnifying glasses and using them. I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Julie Carroll from Cornell. She is a plant pathology specialist. We talked a bit about spraying with all the rain pressure we have had. We all hid out in the greenhouse for a while- during a downpour, then went over to the vineyard. After they all left at about 6:30 PM, I went back to work and sprayed the grapes. It remained fairly dry overnight to give the spray a chance to dry on.
> 
> How are your vines doing? Did the goo ever go away?



Rich - Thanks for asking.
It is interesting that I did two dormant sprays, one at Thanksgiving and the other in early April, using a mix of a commercial lime-sulfur product with one percent Stylet Oil added per Gregorio's recommendation on the other forum. I applied the April spray just after the initial long pruning. If I understood Greg correctly, the combination seems to knock down overwintering very PM well for him, so I gave it a try since I ended up with some wicked PM on my Foch and Frontenac by the end of the season last year. This spring I have sprayed twice with SO at two week intervals.
As I wrote earlier on this forum, the pruning cuts on my vines kept running sap endlessly and the orange goo quickly developed wherever the sap ran. At this point in the growing season I am dismayed to see that almost none of the vines were doing well, except two and a half of my three St. Pepins.
Looking at this objectively, whatever got the dormant spray mixture followed by the two SO applications appears to be struggling. The two vigorous St. Pepins were not sprayed with SO once green growth started. The third had one cordon arm sprayed while the other arm was not sprayed. The arm I sprayed is adjacent to the Foch and I wondered if the proximity might argue for some spray protection, although I have never seen evidence of PM on the St. Pepins over the last two years. That arm has nowhere near as vigorous growth as the unsprayed arm.
I am left to wonder whether the dormant spray application was harmful in and of itself on the cold hardy varieties, in some way short circuiting the vines ability to heal pruning cuts. I also have to question the safety of Stylet Oil (mixed at about 1.5 percent) for green growth, based upon the reaction of the third St. Pepin vine and of course all the other varieties.
One other consideration would be my sprayer itself. Although I try to clean it out thoroughly after using it, there might have been a trace of lime-sulfur left when I mixed the SO solution for my first two sprays of the season. This is an unknown, and I could buy a second sprayer so I don't have the possibility of crossover mixing.
It is very disheartening to see most of my vines set back so badly. In the case of the 5 Landot Noir, there is barely any growth at all, mostly barren nodes and what small growth there is is shriveled from the orange goo.
So, maybe it is too early to declare this a learning experience since I have no answers to these phenomena. If you or anyone else has any insight or similar experience I'd sure like to hear about it. I am letting new growth come up from the ground where it is happening at many of the vines, and will replace whole trunks and cordons where necessary.


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## grapeman

Bill I certainly don't have an answer for you. I do know that California and Maine(NY,MN,etc.) have very different winters. I do know that Stylet Oil and Sulfur or Captan don't get along well and cause phytotoxicity. While lime-sulfur applications work well in warm environments, I question their efficacy in cold climates. The beneficial anti-fungalactivity of sulfur is limited at low temperatures(below 65F)rendering their activity almost non-existent in late autumn, early spring. ANY sulfur residue left in the sprayer can have dire consequences on foliage when stylet oil is applied. I applied Stylet Oil once last year and had pretty bad leaf burning reactions. As long as other alternatives exist and remain effective I will stick with them.


With the rains we have had this year, I would be spraying every 2-3 days with Stylet Oil to get needed protection. At the site other than my own, I have appled two fungicide applications this year to dat. The first was Manzate 75 and Rubigan EC and the second just last week was Quintec and Captan. At home I have applied a bit more often since my site is more protected from constant winds. 



The Landot vines while being later to break bud should be going gangbusters by now. The ones at Willsboro have caught up to and passed vines such as Vignoles. They went from swollen buds to pre-bloom in under two weeks time where some of the others took well over a month.


Here's wishing you better sucess with the vines for the remainder of the season.


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## grapeman

I just got done training a row of second year Frontenac to the fruiting wire. They were allowed to get all bushy until now after cutting the main cane just below that wire earlier this spring. I select two appropriate canes to lay down(if available) and tie to the wire. They will be allowed to grow verticle shoots the rest of the season. 


Edit
Because this site won't load ANY pictures for me tonight I am providing links to them in photobucket. They will open in a differnt window. When done looking at it just close that window and view the next lin. Sorry for any inconvenience.


An untrained mess.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/Vineyard/June21_2008/?action=view&amp;current=100_4042.jpg
javascript:void(0);


Area to be trained
http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/?action=view&amp;current=100_4044.jpg


Newly trained Frontenac with ones trained last year behind them.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/?action=view&amp;current=100_4039.jpg


Edward Scissorhands was here
http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/?action=view&amp;current=100_4038.jpg


The idea is to form a strong pretty straight trunk, then develop the cordon(canes, arms) later. That will form the basis of the vine to start fruiting the next year.


Hope this helps someone understand a bit more.





*Edited by: appleman *


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## Joanie

What happened to the photos? I want to see them so I know what to do!


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman...you must have deleted your photos in PhotoBucket....

You got to leave them there for them to show up.....Don't worry about keeping too many there...Once you have 1000 they just start up another account.


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## grapeman

NW the photos are still there. This site is causing all kinds of problems for me tonight. I have the photobucket pro account so I basically don't have any limit.Vey frustrating, but if you go back now I have links to the pictues at Photobucket. I can't even manually add pictures this evening.


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## OilnH2O

Looking guuuudddd!





The photobucket pic's look great -- wish my vines looked like that -- I'm waiting to have "something" to show before I post anything new, although I have pinched off a few pinot grape clusters -- so I know at least a couple of the vines are going to work!


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman.....
Are you cutting or pulling off that foliage????

I have a lot of wild growth coming on now and wonder how much to take off....? 

I did pull a bunch of low suckers today and wonder about taking off some of the top growth along the arms....?

Have started some replacement arms from the main trunk of some plants....Let some new growth from the base to replace the oldest vines with a whole new vine.....

Just trying to figure out how much to take off at this time of the year.



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

I am training the future cordons on that row of vines. I am having to clip off the shoots because they have hardened pretty well now. A week ago I could break them off easily, but there have been too many things to do and too much rain. I would get rid of all the suckers and side shoots at the base now(unless you want to keep one for a trunk replacement). I would leave most of the growth on the cordons now and thin later if needed. If you reduce the number of shoots too soon, the remaining ones will take off like crazy.


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## NorthernWinos

Went out and looked at the grapes again...
Need some wires strung on one row so I can tie up the baby plants and do some training/trimming on that row. Other than that will leave them alone for a week or so.

Went out and trimmed some bushes...


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## grapeman

I am just trying to post a picture from the other day to see if the picture posting is working.


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## grapeman

OK that worked- that is a row of Little Frontenac trained to cordons in front of a three year old Frontenac on VSP(same as the little one only a year older).


javascript:void(0);*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman...are you getting pounded with more rain today????? Your sure hogging that stuff over there.


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## grapeman

We had rain before sunup and then a few quick showers. The humidity was about as high as it can get - like 85 air temperature with about 83 dewpoint. About 2:00 it semi cleared up so after a while I was able to mow the hayfield- eeerrr .... lawn. I then was able to hoe and till the nursery and finished up the balance of the 18 rows I started Friday evening until getting rained out.


I acturally got quite a bit of training done over the weekend of young vines. I did the one smaller block and did two of four rows next to the orchard- 125 vines there. They should have been done a few weeks ago, but there has been limited time without a lot of rain. I am training them to two arms on the fruiting wire and am taking off about 90 percent of the vine in the process. They have about 15 suckers each the thickness of a big finger. I am sure they will look better in a few weeks, but right now they look sad. I got a surprise in that block while training the St. Croix. They are blooming now and have a distinct red cluster. I came across one of the 25 of them that has small clusters of the biggest berries I have - about the size of 00 buckshot. The leaves are similar, but the clusters are about 3 weeks ahead of the rest of them. I noted it and will watch during the season. I am leaving just a few clusters of the St. Croix because it is only their second year(but they are ultra vigorous).


I'm working on sending some rain back to you again like yesterday, but it goes back harder than moving east.


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## Wade E

I have been getting rain and thunderstorms everyday and its really pi$$ing me off. I dont have a truck anymore and need 14 sheets of drywall and everytime I have someone willing to help me get this to my house it starts to downpour.


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## grapeman

The constant rains have ended for now. We have had almost a week of great weather now. The first couple days, some things actually wilted a bit in the sun because they didn't know what it was! The grapes continue to grow at a frantic pace- and I am frantically trying to keep up with the work in them. It's a good thing it was a three day weekend. I am finally just about finished getting all last years vines trained with whip and chair! I had to run a few wires to train them to yesterday and today. Now I need to clip the low growth off a few rows and try to run the weedeater in a few areas where the weeds got ahead of me with all the rain of last month. 


I squashed the first two Japanese Beetles today. I had appled an insecticide with the last spray about 10 days ago. I'm hoping as the beetles feed on the vines, it will get them. If it doesn't and they get too numerous I guess it will be time for another spraying. I will post some pictures in another week or so as the grapes size up and stand out in the pictures more. The Frontenac are unbelievable. The ones trained VSP have 12-15 clusters per foot of row. The four arm kniffen trained ones have 15-20 clusters per foot. The clusters when mature are about 2 clusters per pound so that would be about 5-10 pounds per foot of row if I left them all there- or 35-70 pounds per vine!!!! I don't think that would be healthy for them and I don't think they would ripen too well, so I will be thinning some soon and then more later when they reach veraison.


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## Wade E

Still getting rain everyday here on and off. Heavy then stop and then again. UGH!


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## AlFulchino

Hey there Appleman. First thank you for letting me know about this place.


I appreciate your sharing the info on your vines and also the amount of clusters you are leaving on second year vines....I have pruned most of my vines twice this year and some three times so this has removed about 80% + of the clusters....But I would like to leave some here and there so that I can start tasting and experimenting.


Here is a question for you...some varieties are more bushy than upright (case in point Foch) and others may have lost a cane due to wind..so in both cases a few vines that I have are just getting to the cordon or just a few inches on it....i am in a similar growing season climate as you ( here in NH)...do you believe there is enough time left to get the cordon hardened off?


Also, on the more bushy varieties I have thus far left lower foliage on the new trunks and I am wondering If i should strip these off simply to point the focus of the plant to its growing tips......or just let the plant sort of do what it does and take the extra time to get the cordons out.


Thanks in advance.


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## grapeman

Welcome to the forum Al. Glad to have you here. This is the friendliest forum you will find around. 
You have young vines so give them enough time to do their thing. The ones that have lost shoots due to wind etc, just let them grow some extra shoots to form canes. That will give them more reserves for winter and a better chance of the shoots hardening off for better canes next year. Then next spring you can prune leaving the best one to form a cordon next year. Basically a cordon is just a well placed cane the first year left to form spurs and reused the next year instead of replacing every year with a new cane.


----------



## AlFulchino

Cool...thanks!


i actually feel like for the first time in a year and a half that i sort am in control of what is going on...I am supposed to get my pristine tomorrow...so i intend on doing a so/pristine app early wed morn because it is supposed to be over 90 that day and rain late in the day...but i have to get something on the vines they are due right now.....what oz/gallon ratio do you use w Pristine of your vines?...I will be doing a 1% solution w the SO




also when you first layed your canes to make cordons...did you leave a spur that same year so what i am asking is this...did you take fruit from teh shoot coming from the cane..or did the fruit come from the spur...in your first real fruiting year?


thanks in advance


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## grapeman

Al you can definitely take grapes off the canes. When you lay them down in the winter/spring, they will form verticle shoots or hanging shoots that will get two or three clusters per shoot.


Pristine should be applied at 8-10 ounces per acre. Figure how many gallons you spray per acre and add the spray to that. Does that make sense? I use 60 gallons per acre so if I am spraying an acre, I put 60 gallons in the sprayer and put the target amount of spray in the sprayer, turn on the agitator and apply. DO NOT apply on Concord or Noiret since they are sensitive to Pristine.


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## AlFulchino

My gallonage per acre is still changing because of the youth of the vines....the total leaf surface is growing though so I guess i will be looking to get near your rate. Early in the year I was very light....my last sprayiwas close to that 60 gallonsper acre.
I do not have Concord nor Noiret......and thi is my first time mixing it w SO...as i understand it these two mix well as long as the SO goes in last.


Pristine must be pretty potent at the rate you mentioned because it seems that most sprays are almost *always* at a 1-2 ounce per gallon ratio.


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## OilnH2O

Welcome aboard, Al -- you'll have to get us some pictures to go with your comments so we can all be in awe of you, like we are of Rich!


----------



## grapeman

I promised a few updated pictures, so here are some. 


This one is looking down my acces road wihich has 12 foot spacing instead of 9 feet like the rest. I thought it was a nice shot to start with.










Here is a shot of Chardonnel. They didn't winter super, so the upright shoots are a bit far apart, but they shoul give nice grapes when mature.






Here is a shot of Frontenac-red grapes.






Here is a Leon Millot row- the weeds are gone now- last evenings project was this row.








Here is part of a two acre vineyard expansion for the future... Stay tuned on that.






I'm headed out to the jungle now to tame a few rows like this. Wish me luck.................











*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman....Thanks for posting the photos.

On the last photo, the jungle looking row...
How old are those vines???
What will you prune off????
Is there fruit on these vines inside all that growth??? 
How do you keep the new growth off the Frontenac??? They look so well manicured with no wild new shoots....Did you trim off the new growth????

Some of my vines look wild like that jungle row with fruit hidden inside....I did take out a few really long vines yesterday, some ran from the top wire to the ground....We had 60 MPH winds last night, so expect there was some 'natural' pruning.


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## Wade E

Very nice Rich. How many hours a week does it take to keep up with what you have going not counting the new 2 acres approx.?


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## grapeman

The Frontenac and those others are all pruned and trained to Verticl Shoot Positioning- using catch wires. There are two canes trained one each direction and the shoots that grow off it are trained up through the catch wires. The row that looks so unruly actually isn't that bad, the shoots got real tall and all flopped over to one side. I will soon take the battery operated hedger to them and top them above the top wire and stray shoots off the sides. The Frontenac I trimmed up a few days ago. 


The thick vines actually have about 60-80 clusters per vine just like the ones in the Frontenac, but the clusters are smaller so don't show up in the picture. I read your post and will reply to it later when I get done work for the day. I'm expecting a visitor from the Cornell grape program in a bit so I gotta get back outside to work.


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## grapeman

Wade, it takes all the spare time I have and then some.


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## NorthernWinos

Ahhhh, so I can safely take off some of that unruly growth...I had assumed that we were not suppose to 'trim' during the summer. I will leave the 'replacement' canes and trim off some of that rangy new growth and then the air can get through there better, as well as the spray.

I do understand not to trim the ends of the vines so they can harden off...Is that correct????

No problem with air movement lately...60MPH winds last night did trim some grape canes and sustained 40MPH winds today broke off some Elderberries at the base....Too windy to spray anything today.


----------



## grapeman

You can take some of the excess growth off. If you just trim the ends, the send out lateral shoots to try to take over and it can get too bushy. Once the grapes have set the bunches and start using energy for them, you can take some ends off- leaving plenty of leaves to ripen the fruit and harden off the shoots before fall.


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## NorthernWinos

I'm going bush-whacken tomorrow....get those grapes looking little more cared for.

Jim did put the wires up on the row of little Frontenac's yesterday, so I have them off the ground and trimmed up and looking more respectable....Things are looking up in the Wine Garden.


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## AlFulchino

Thank you OilnH2O, i will post some pics in another topic so that i dont divert from the great pics Rich as posted....Rich those pics ***teach*** me so much, thank you very much, nicevines!- AL


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## grapeman

Thanks Al. Your vines look great also.


It has turned into a bit of a rainy day, but I won't complain. We have only had .20 inches of rain so far in July after over six inches in June. I guess I can put up some of those catch wires I haven't got up yet. We just had a pretty good shower- maybe a quarter inch of rain. Hopefully if is going to be wet today it will rain an inch before it is done. It's time for me to respray anyways. The Japanese Beetles have arrived in force now!


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## AlFulchino

i had one Jap beetle last week....and then 3 days ago i saw about two dozen...so i am seeing an increase...aside from SO i have had to do nothing this year on insectides....and i love having thelady bugs...but if i see a large increase by late weekof the upcoming week of JB's then I will do a tank mix of SO/Sevin and Elite 45 WP


thsi past week i did a mix of Pristine ( at a heavy rate) and SO


we had what you had in June...it was rough...this month we have had close to one inch but overall thsi month has been beautiful...kep your pics coming...ilearn SOOOOO much from seeing them......do the pics take longtoload for you? they seemed onthe long side of things timewise when i was loading mine


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## grapeman

Yes the pictures do take a long time to load. It can get frustrating at times. I also get errors often if I load more than 3 at a time, so you will often notice my posts edited. I load three, post and then edit to add three more. Once in a while I give up, upload to photobucket and put the link to them here. Not sure why it happens.


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## grapeman

It has been a while since I posted much for pictures so I thought I would give you a bunch. In order to not take up too much space on our server here at FVW, I loaded some more to Photobucket and here is a link to a slideshow.


http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/Vineyard/July232008/?albumview=slideshow&amp;start=20


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## AlFulchino

bbbbeeeeeeaaaauuuuuuutttttiiiiifffffuuuuuulllllllllllllllllll!


questions: what are you using to keep the nursery area for example to keep the young vinesweed free?


my Frontenac and St Croix are not as clean as your leaves are and it is puzzling me as grapes on each side are darn clean


comment: 1/2 my vineyard started to drain from the rains we had 2 and 3 days ago...but we are in another soaker right now and could get 1-2 inches more tomorrow..i am fearful that we could be UNDER water for 2-4 weeks


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## grapeman

To keep the nursery area weed-free? I am using a Troybuilt CRT Tiller and a hand hoe. It takes me about a half hour to run through with the tiller and then about 1.5-2hours for a pass through the 20 rows with the hoe(if I get the weeds when small). As the vines get larger, it gets harder to get through them with the tiller and a bit longer with the hoe.


Not sure about why your Frontenac and St Croix aren't as clean. I alternate sprays every spraying and as you can see, they get well covered.


Good luck with the rain. We were expecting 2-5 inches today, tonight through tomorrow and have gotten no rain at all from it yet. Keeping fingers crossed!


As a sidenote are you going to the upcoming Grape Conference in NH on I think August 6?
http://pss.uvm.edu/grape/


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## AlFulchino

I am thinking of going...i was told about it last week when i was talking w Andy Farmer of NE Vine Supply ( i am very please w his service thus far) and then today i got the invite from UNH...will you be there


and i know you have a ton of sand...please take my share of rain  i am very serious about how bad it is here...the rain is very unusual last year and this year


I jave been using roundup for the in row weeds...are you also using the tiller for weeds up againstthe vines? or hand pulling?


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## grapeman

I don't think I will be able to go with my summer work schedule. If you go, look for Bob Stevens. He is a new grower with about an acre- with mostly Marquette. He is a very nice fellow. He said he was probably going since he lives just across the border from NH- in Vermont. If you would like to correspond with him I can give you his e-mail address. I just talked with him again this afternoon.


Yes we have mostly sand at this end of the farm- heavier loam on the main side of the farm where I will be expanding.


I used one application of Roundup toal in the vines so far- this spring before budbreak. I hand hoe when the weeds are small, but with the rain, they got ahead of me and I had to hand pull almost a mile of weeds this time. I have about 75 feet left to do if it ever stops raining. I still clean cultivate with a small disc harrow to "conserve moisture" for the vines- like that is needed!


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## AlFulchino

ok....so you weed like many of us mortals  that is good to know 
thank you


Edit by Appleman: I deleted your e-mail address from here for your security after sending it to him.



*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

At the risk of appearing to pad my post count, I am copying my picture post from the last page for those who didn't notice it.


It has been a while since I posted much for pictures so I thought I would give you a bunch. In order to not take up too much space on our server here at FVW, I loaded some more to Photobucket and here is a link to a slideshow. 



http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj31/appleman0006/Vineyard/July232008/?albumview=slideshow&amp;start=20


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## Wade E

Youre not trying to catch up to me are you?


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## geocorn

appleman,


How do you have time for your day job? That is one h&amp;$$ of a vineyard. I am duly impressed. I should have come down from Montreal to see your spread. Will definitely plan a side trip next time. I applaud your efforts.


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## grapeman

geocorn said:


> appleman,
> 
> 
> How do you have time for your day job?




I was wondering that myself just yesterday. I spend about 2 hours an evening(or more) in the vineyard 5 days a week then 10 hours each on Sat &amp;Sunfor about 30 hours a week. Then 2 days a week I spend 10 hours each at Willboro tending Vineyard and High Tunnel Greenhouse there for Cornell. That's 50 hours total so far. That leaves 3 work days for my dayjob of 10 hours each for another 30 hours. That's 80 hours a week total. 


So I guess it's like all the rest of your schedules- very busy!


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## NorthernWinos

Thanks for the Slide Show...always enjoy looking at your grapes.

How highs the water?????
You could quit hogging all the rain out there!!!!!....I see now how you can grow such good crops on that sand, lots of moisture.


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## Waldo

WOW......very impressive vineyard appleman


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## JWMINNESOTA

Enjoyed the pics Appleman, looks like your labor of love is going to payoff handsomely. By the way, have you tried any of the wine from last fall? Impressions?


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## grapeman

Yes I have tasted them. Impressions? Of course..................... but then I may be prejudiced. So far the favorites for me and others are... Whites-
Petite Amie, LaCrescent, LaCrosse - Reds- Sabrevois, Marquette. One of these days, I will have a wine tasting and try to get proper notes from participants.


In general, the whites are best when sweetened just a bit bringing upt to about 1.002-1.004 brings the fruitiness out and they take on a Riesling type character, but with more pronounced fruit. The acid balance is great.


The reds are good dry and I went a bit heavy on oak, but it is mellowing. I will give descriptors at a later time.


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## swillologist

Thanks for the pictures appleman. Your vineyard looks great.
We had a storm come through the other night. It had 80 mph wind and itpushed some of my arbor over some. When the boy gets home this weekend we will stand them back up straight. It never quites rain here either appleman. It seems to rain every other day. NW you can have some of ours. It's a lot closer.


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## Waldo

You need you a couple of these appleman
http://www.winepod.net/products/winepod-and-winecoach.aspx


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## grapeman

The person that developed this is currently working on a higher end product for the serious to "professional" winemaker. He is looking at $4-5000 price range or more. I don't think any of them are in the cards for me right away! Can you say George Jetson?


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## grapeman

Is anybody else getting hammered with the rain again? I would gladly send NW a few inches again if I could. Since yesterday at noon we have had over three inches of rain again. Almost the monthly average in the first two or three days of the month.... again! The weekend started productively until noon and then we had a few showers. Then again at 2:00 and then at 4:00 it got serious. We had two inches of rain in less than an hour. It has been lightly raining all day with a few heavier showers. If the grapes don't get full of fungal disease before harvest it will be a miracle!


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## Wade E

Sorry to hear about that buddy, I havent gotten any down this way today but got hammered yesterday right after I set up all my tools outside to do a side job. Every time I get a side job it is clear skies until my tools are set up then bang! Not much at my house but could use some so send it this way as my lawn needs it and so does my car since it hasnt seen a cr wash in quite some time.


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## Bert

You seem to have a very green thumb when it comes to grapes Appleman...I bet they will be alright...hopes so anyway....Good luck


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## grapeman

So far they are fine Bert. I don't have any great aversion to using properly used, properly applied sprays. The folks around this area that like to be all organic are in a great deal of trouble this year.


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## geocorn

Please, please, please, feel free to send ALL of it our way. 9 days in a row over 100 with no end in sight. Ready to go back to Montreal.


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## swillologist

George sent his heat up north. We are finally able to get in thegarden again and now it is so blazon hot you can get out. Well mother won't let me go out anyway. Did get the fall garden planted the other evening. We did that when it was a little wet. Didn't know it was going to stay awhile. 
As far as the grapes go. I think the fungus has pretty well hammer the fredonia this year. It has worked on a few of the others but not as badly. I have got mother talked into letting me spray them some. That should help. If not for this year maybe for next year. *Edited by: swillologist *


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman....We sure can use some rain...seems the storms are all passing us by.....we get a little mist now and then...This morning the fog was so thick it was almost like rain, everything is dripping...freshens up stuff is about all.....

We have beautiful corn and soybeans plants....but we need rain to make grain....Wheat is getting ripe...Jim has to tune on his combine and get the AC working....then unfortunately he is going to have to do some work.

The garden could use some watering....but so far it is doing pretty good.

So it goes....Mother Nature rules.


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## grapeman

I would send you some rain guys if I could but it is hard tossing it that far against the wind, It keeps blowing right back at us. I dumped the 5 gallon bucket today I have had sitting on the deck for about 10 days. It was about 4 inches from the top. This is a 5 gallon joint compound bucket which the sides hardly slope on. It wasn't under eaves or anything- just in the open. I'm still in pretty good shape here since it drains well, but my brother's veggies are floating. They were trying to get cucumbers today and the ducks landed in the field near them. Enough is enough already!


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## NorthernWinos

I tallied up our rain for July to send to the County/State.....total...2.05"...
We had near ½" twice....the rest of it it came in 10ths of an inch....

So it goes.


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## grapeman

I am getting ready to post some flyers for grapes for sale this fall. What do you guys think of this? Will it get attention or should I change things a bit?


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## Wade E

Looks great to me Appleman, wish I was nearby to buy a share. Is it better to pick in the morning with grapes? If so what is it about the morning that makes it better?


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## NorthernWinos

WOW!!!!!!
Your going to have a good harvest....was wondering what you were going to do with all your grapes....

Now, I'm wondering what your going to do with all your money.....


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## grapeman

The idea of picking in the morning or even overnight is to get them while it is cooler so they don't start to ferment or break down on their own. Not usually a problem around here since by the time it is ready to pick them it isn't very warm at the height of the day. California and Texas that see lows of 80 are still 20 degrees hotter than here at midday in late September to mid October.


NW I would like to make wine with them all, but I don't have a Winery Permit yet. And as far as all that money, you farm, tell me where it will go



I do plan on making all I have room to.


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## Wade E

Are you looking to turn into a winery in the near future Rich? With all this experience I believe you are the most valuable asset to this forum. 

*Edited by: wade *


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## JWMINNESOTA

Looks really good Appleman, heres hoping all your yield estimates are low, and the vineyard benefits greatly from the harvest this year! I to wish I was closer to enjoy a few fruits of your labor, you have truly done an outstanding job.


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## AlFulchino

fantastic....on average how many pounds per vine or clusters per vine are you pulling..if i recall correctly these are third year in the ground correct?


lastly what is the estimated dates for picking? you may wish to add a date range on the flyer for informational purposes


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## grapeman

Yes Al these are third year vines and have been very vigorous the whole time. I am cropping to the max on them to keep in check as much as possible without them suffering. Any vines lagging behind(and there are few) were thinned appropriately. There are 2 clusters or less on them per shoot.


I had thought of est picking dates, but there is a lack of room for too much and still keep it visible. I want them to call and come check them out instead. This is more to feel out the market than actually worry about selling them all. Better to experiment with a couple tons than 20 acres worth. If I don't sell any, I will make 200 gallons of wine for ourselves.


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## AlFulchino

"This is more to feel out the market than actually worry about selling them all."


That said it all...i understand....good thinking....my query was more just about the timing of when they could expect to pick up...your reasons supercede that for sure


i will tell you what...i am supposed to be coming up that way to help out at Willsboro if all goes right....could i set up something with you now and be your first customer? i could bring up some carboys.....


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## grapeman

Just PM me Al what you are interested in. I am going out now to get to work but will be checking in later.


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## grapeman

I got the Vineside Bird Netting finished putting on over the weekend on the VSP trained vines. I goes on fairly easily and the more I did the easier it was. Next up in a week or so I will apply the over the top 14 foot wide netting to protect the rest of the grapes.
We had another quarter inch of rain Friday evening, but the thunderstorm yesterday with the hail luckily missed us by a few miles. The side netting should give them some protection against that since it has a small opening in the weaving. The weekend was pretty nice overall, but I had to quit early yesterday for a barbeque at my sisters place right next door. Good time had by all.


I got some more trellis catch wires put up today and harrowed the middles again. That allowed things to dry up pretty well and they look in pretty good shape. I didn't get any pictures this time but will try to get some in a few days if the sun keeps shining.


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## grapeman

I got a few pictures yesterday. Things are moving along fairly well. I checked brix quickly on a few vaireties- namely St. Pepin, Frontenac and the Canadice Seedless. They are all in the 15-16 brix range- a bit higher than expected since we haven't had an especially warm summer. 


Here is a picture of the side netting on some VSP Frontenac.








Here is Leon Millot






Some Catawba






A closer shot of Catawba






Two year old Traminette - excellent white wine.






Cluster Traminette- maybe a first taste of it locally?






An apple a day -How abouta Gala?







*Edited by: appleman *


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## Waldo

Looking mighty good appleman !!!


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## Wade E

Wow! I am so tempted to shoot down there appleman but its atleast a 6 hour drive but still very tempting!


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## BonnieJoy

Appleman - Your vineyard is impressive. If anyone can make the transition from hobby to business it's certain that you can. I agree with Wade, if I was just a little closer, I'd be in line with him to purchase some of your grapes.


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## grapeman

If anyone is interested, here is an article run in the local paper. It isn't all accurate, with some definite misquotes, but the author was sincere in writing it up. There might even be a picture or two of yours truly. Just don't blame me if your glasses break when viewing them. Never claimed to be a beauty. 
http://www.pressrepublican.com/archivesearch/local_story_243201546.html


We got most of the rest of the vines covered at home today only two more rows of late ones left to do.


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## AlFulchino

the one and only....now i know who to loofor!!!!!  this is the guy that has been helping me





k 


Rich...which nets are those seen in the picture?

<DIV align=center>http://www.pressrepublican.com/archivesearch/images_sizedimage_243201540/resources_photoview*Edited by: Al Fulchino *


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## AlFulchino

Published August 30, 2008 08:15 pm - Researchers seek suitable grapes for winter's wrath.

North Country Grapes


By DAN HEATH 
Staff Writer 

<!--	

Kenya minister speaks about ministry


A minister from Kenya was in Enid talking about his ministry.


By Robert Barron 

<br talondition="here/Byline" />

CNHI News Service 

-->
WILLSBORO -- Research is helping determine what type of grape vines can handle the chill of a North Country winter and the region's short growing season.
Richard Lamoy volunteers at the Cold Hardy Wine Grape Cultivar Trial, which is located on the Cornell E.V. Baker Agricultural Research Farm in Willsboro. Lamoy attended an open house there after he planted his own vineyard in 2005.
"I saw a lot of the varieties I had decided to try were there," he said.
Some of those varieties are borderline for this region, grown more for research comparisons with the cold hardy grapes. There are 25 varieties of grapevines, planted in three vine blocks that are replicated four times in random locations along 10 rows throughout the small, fenced in plot overlooking Lake Champlain.
"Cold hardy grapes are helping the industry (wine making) catch on in Northern New York," Lamoy said.
Kevin Iungerman, an extension associate with the Cornell Northeast New York Commercial Fruit Program is the project leader. The farm has received funding and support from that program as well as State Sen. Elizabeth Little, the Northern New York Agricultural Development Program, the New York Farm Viability Institute and numerous volunteer growers.
"It's not a project of the (E.V. Baker Agricultural Research) farm," he said. "We are using no funds from the Baker Farm project." 
This is the third growing season. It takes three growing seasons before a substantial harvest will be available.
Five of the varieties at the trial were picked for their reputed excellence in cold winters of Wisconsin and Minnesota. Others were used for comparison.
"I expected more cold injury. That hasn't really occurred," Iungerman said. "I expected one-third to half to be damaged."
He said recent warmer winters may be to blame. Last year, the lowest temperature recorded at the trial was 11 below zero Fahrenheit.
Lamoy said a number of varieties are good down to 15 below. 
"We figured they would die during the winter, which would be good for the study," he said. "But, not many have died."
Two of those varieties, Cayuga White and Niagara, are more suited to the Finger Lakes region, Lamoy said. They have been successful here, which has surprised some growers, he said.
Iungerman hopes the trial will help encourage a number of small vineyards in the region, similar to what's happening in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa.


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## grapeman

The net is the Vineside EZ-10 netting.


The article isn't totally quoted right- they seem to take liberties. If you are intersted here is the rest of the article- that you have is only the first part of it until you hit next. There are a few more pictures too.



"I think the potential is there to a degree. We can have a small (wine making) industry here," Iungerman said. "Our counterparts on the Vermont side of the lake are ahead of us."
That includes several small commercial vineyards that are in operation, he said.
Next year's proposal includes making wine from five different varieties, but also a study of the effects of different forms of vine maintenance and growth patterns.
Volunteers are at the trial several times a year, for pruning, canopy control, to put up bird netting and harvest. Iungerman usually gives a short presentation on those and other topics at those times.
He was the one who chose the location, which overlooks Lake Champlain. Lamoy said the Champlain Valley works for growing grapes because temperatures are higher than the surrounding area.
There are several keys to a successful vineyard, he said. One is to carefully select a site. Lamoy said grapes grow best on poor soil.
"Grapes, in general, like well-drained soil," he said. 
If the soil is too rich, the canopy growth can be difficult to control, Lamoy said. It's best to properly match the variety of grape to the soil available, he said, and it's also important to not plant all one variety until you know what works well in your area.
Some pesticides are used at the research plot, Lamoy said.
"We want to control disease and insect damage so we can compare the different types better. It controls some of the unknown variables," he said.
Lamoy said many of the grapes have reached veraison, a French term for the point where fruit starts to change color, get softer and increase in sugar level.
Harvest usually takes place in mid- to late-September through October.
"Different varieties mature at different times," Lamoy said.
He said some nice, warm weather from now until harvest would be best. The heat causes sugar levels to rise and lowers the acid levels, he said
After harvest, five varieties will be used to produce wine at Cornell, Lamoy said.


A potential vintner should do as much research as possible, he said. It's nice to have a resource like the cold hardy grape trial in the area, Lamoy said.
All of the cold hardy grapes at the trial are hybrids, crossed with native grapes that are able to survive in the cold. 
In cold climates, two canes (main trunks) are often used. That way, if one dies during the winter, the other will be available in that spot the next growing season.
There are several methods of arranging growth, Lamoy said, each with benefits and disadvantages. Several different types are being used at the trial, to study which works best with each type of grape.
Frontenac grapes grow well in northern New York. They are capable of surviving temperatures as low as 30 degrees below zero Fahrenheit.
The grapes are used to make a red wine. Another variety that grows well in colder climates is Frontenac gris, which is used to make a white wine, Lamoy said.
The Frontenac varieties and one called Marquette are well suited to the Champlain Valley, Lamoy said. Another variety developed in Minnesota, Le Crescent, also works well, he said. "It makes a really nice white wine," Lamoy said.
The right amount of sun is important to make grapes ripen, but too much can cause them to burn, Lamoy said. He showed a cluster of noirette where several of the grapes had been ruined by the sun.
Lamoy operates his own vineyard at his Hid-In Pine Farm in Morrisonville. He first planted grapes in 1978.
"It was a small planting. There wasn't much of a selection (of grape types) back then," he said.
Lamoy gave up after a few unproductive seasons, and waited more than 20 years to give it another go 3 years ago. He is now experimenting with a number of cold hardy wine grapes. 
His backyard vineyard has about 750 grapevines. That includes 30 varieties of grapes, 25 of which will be used to make wine.
He also has a nursery with about 1,200 seedlings for the future.
Hybrid grapes such as the cold-hardy varieties produce about one gallon of wine per vine. Each gallon can fill five wine standard-sized wine bottles.
"They will produce between a ton-and-a-half to two tons of grapes. That will make between 150 and 200 gallons of wine," he said.


His property features fairly sandy soil, which is good. It is surrounded by large trees, which is not so ideal. It would be better if there was more of a chance for the air to circulate, he said.
Wine grapes often carry a much higher sugar content than table grapes, Lamoy said. Typically, they are ready for harvest between 20 and 26 brix, the scale used to measure sugar content.
Lamoy used a refractometer to check the sugar level of some Frontenac grapes. A few drops of juice are squeezed onto the device, which measures the sugar level.
The juice was at about 15 brix, and will be ready for harvest when it reaches 26.
"This year we're a little ahead on ripening. Last year the Frontenac were about 11 (brix) at this time," Lamoy said. 
Lamoy has more than cold hardy grapes. There are several vines of Chardonelle, a hybrid grape developed from Chardonay. 
He said it is supposed to need a longer growing season, but seems to be working well in his vineyard.
Lamoy said his vineyard offers a chance to experiment and provide enjoyment and exercise.
He is using a wide variety similar to the research trial, an attempt to find out which ones work best on his property.
"When I figure out which ones work, I will put in a bigger vineyard with a smaller variety," Lamoy said.
[email protected]


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## Wade E

My eyes, my eyes!!!!!!!!! Just kidding, great article there Appleman. Plain old good reading.


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## AlFulchino

yes great article...nice job Rich! Your're an amabssador!


i have been asked to be interviewed...it was supposed to occur a week or so ago...now its another week or so in advance


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## grapeman

Yeah I know Wade! I have blinded more people and a few animals than I can shake a stick at!


The article isn't anything that I wrote- he kind of butchered what we were talking about- but if it sparks an intersest in even one person then it is worth the time spent with him over two different days. He used two photographers. It was sort of comical. They both kept asking about wine tastings! Now if somebody asks- I have some splits special for that purpose from the grapes I made into wine last year.


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## NorthernWinos

That was great reading....It's nice to see al you hard work is not going unnoticed. 

Good going!!!! Congratulations!!!!


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## OilnH2O

Nice picture -- nice article.


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## grapeman

I just uploaded this picture. I think I put it here before, but I wanted to try it with the new Google Chrome. It uploaded in about 2 seconds compared to an iffy minute or two. I will try it out more, but this looks promising!*Edited by: appleman *


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## grapeman

I just got back in from the grapes and wanted to check out the Marquis to see how they are doing. I picked this bunch that weighs almost a pound and the grapes are about 3/4 inch to 1 inch in size. They are only brix of 17, but seem much sweeter because the acid is very mild. They almost melt in your mouth. I needed to get rid of a few sparrows that had made their way into the nets somehow. They are hard to get back out!







I checked the brix on Frontenac. A lot of variation- they run from 20 up to to 26. When they all get that high, it will be time to pick them.


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## grapeman

We have a Yo-Yo effeect going on here with the weather. Last week it cooled way down to the low 40's. By Friday it was rainy with highs in the 60's, warming into the mid 70's by midnight. It was 75 when I got up yesterday and then cooled down to 65 during the day with intermittent rain. It stayed there all night and then today a warm front came through with a bit more rain. It was predicted to hit 75 today. At 5:00 the thremometer registered 93 degrees and is curently in the mid 80's. Tomorrow will be in the 70's, getting down to 48 again overnight. I'm hoping the grapes don't mind all the yo-yo weather and keep ripening- they are getting very close and some could be harvested.


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## Wade E

I hear you there Rich. My wife had on a blanket the other night and we now have the AC on!


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## Rocky_Top

In Chattanooga TN it was 72 at 3AM last night and 66 at 5PM. It has been overcast for two days with very little rain. I am sure that our weather is from the far edge of Ike.


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## Wade E

Rich, hows the grape selling going? Do you have any kits?


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## grapeman

I'm lining up a number of folks Wade and then a Winery wants a bunch. I will need to make sure I keep enough for myself. I thought of providing some juice kits. That would be pretty easy to do locally if I bought buckets. I'm basically doing that anyways. The grapes will be picked, destemmed and crushed. The whites immediately(or soon after) pressed. The reds could be pressed or later pressed after some fermentation. All I would need to do is provide some yeast, k-meta and maybe some oak and folks would be all set. I don't think I will need to resort to that this year with the current yield,and next year I hope to have a Farm Winery Permit.


Tonight I am working on some Marquette wine I made last year and bottled a few weeks ago. It's actually pretty good now. I think it will be very good in another 6-12 months maybe sooner. The oak is pretty good in this one. Seems to be good berry notes, some pepper flavors and good mouthfeel. I had a Frontenac the other day and at first it wasn't all that great, but I left it uncorked for a couple hours forgetting about it. I said what the heck and poured another glass and what a difference. It opened up sitting there like you wouldn't believe. I guess it just needs decanting while young. The black cherry really came out in it at that point and it was actually quite good and less acidic than anticipated. It's getting fun working with a varietiey of grapes I can grow myself.


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## Wade E

Thats great Rich! You better save enough to fill your quota so that when you open your winery you can have a few years to sell from with each 1 at a different price. If you do the kit thing I would like to purchase a 6 bucket of the Cayuga but I guess that will have to wait till you have a farm wine permit to ship it or is there even more permits needed for shipping?


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## NorthernWinos

Appleman....sounds like your on a roll with your Vineyard/Winery project.

It's fun following your projects.


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## grapeman

Wade when you get the permit to sell, you can only then start making it for sale. Until you get the permit you can only make it for your own consumption. You can sell all the juice you want for others to make wine from, just not sell wine. I will keep you in mind if I get enough Cayuga this year- if not there are some of the other ones with the same characteritistics as Cayuga but taste even better!


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## Wade E

Well in that case, what are they that you feel is the best white that will be good with a little sweetening and is it a decent grower for someone like me. What would shipping a 6 gallon bucket cost, any idea?


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## AlFulchino

Rich, thanks for the update on the tastings of Marquette and Frontenac!


----------



## farmer

The Marquette and Frontenac wines sure sound great it makes waiting a couple more years that much harder. Patience Patience Patience!!!


----------



## grapeman

I think I will pick enough of the Frontenac vines this weekend to make one or two 6 gallon carboys. They are on the driest end of the vineyard and are starting to raisin. I checked the brix on those first dozen vines and it ran between 24 and 34 brix - probably will be an average of 26-28 and the acid is good. The flavors are good also, so I think I will just pick those. The rest of the Frontenac are up to about 23-24 brix so a bit more time won't hurt them. 


Tonight will slow things down again with a low expected in the mid 30's. 


I think the bulk of the grapes I will leave until the weekend following this coming one. The St. Pepin aren't far off.


The Chardonel continues to surprise me with it's speed of maturity. I will hang it as long as I can to get all the sugar I can. I tested a few tonight that were at 21 brix, but most were about 19. Chardonel will make a nice full bodied wine if matured good so I don't want to rush it. I don't have a lot of them this year, so I will be keeping what I have of them to get a good trial wine made from them. I got 5 bottles of it last year, but had to harvest early due to no bird netting so it tastes a bit green. I want better this year to benchmark against.


----------



## grapeman

By the way, I picked the dozen vines that were starting to raisin at home of Frontenac. Actually I only picked 10 and 2 of them didn't have only a couple clusters apiece (due to a pruning accident last year when I cut them off at ground level!). I figured I would get a carboys worth of grapes and I got 150 pounds from those 8 vines. A few had 25 pounds apiece on them of nice big clusters.








After making the last post I have been dying to try one of my 5 bottles of Chardonnel I made last year. I took the plunge tonight and turned the corksrew.I have been told by the experts it only ripens in NY in the best locations of sourthern NY. Well I must have screwed up royally, because this wine I made last year from less than ripe grapes is EXTREMELY GOOD. I needed to pick a bit soon last year at 21 brix because the birds and coons were getting them badly. I brought a bottle in this evening and gave it a bit of a chill. Upon opening the bottle, I was greeted by a burst of citrus and apples. Swirl it a bit in the beautiful Winestock 2007 glass. Take in the beautiful aromas imagining myself out in the middle of an orchard taking in the wonerful aromas of citrus crops ripening with just a splash of well ripened apples. Sipppp. Hmmmmmmm. Hold that nectar on the tonge and slosh it around a bit. Savoring the flavors is divine. Plenty of flavors here with no green flavors present I can detect. Plenty of mid-range body in this one. Slowly swallowing it, the flavors linger on the palate, balanced by just a hint of acids to leave the tongue refreshed and waiting for another taste...........


I am sure glad I have a larger crop this year and have them covered with some bird netting. Sorry folks, this grape won't be for sale this year!


----------



## AlFulchino

wow...sounds great...did you age it on any specific type of oak?


also...how is that netting from sutton working out?


----------



## grapeman

I didn't oak the Chardonnel at all. I wanted all fruit and that's what I got. I may try some as a buttery Chardonnay style this year and lightly oak it with a French oak.


The Sutton Ag netting is working out fine. I did have one large whole in the Buffalo grapes that either a deer or a coon made-not sure. I think I will check to see what I can get with the drape-over net from Spec-Trellis. I like their material and mesh size better. I have heard that they make a 14 or 17 foot size. 


The Vine-side net is great to pick. I just undid the clips on the top to pick where I wanted and that side drops down, stayin attached at the bottom. I you aren't picking everything, you can bring back up when done and reclip it. It would work great at Willboro where we spend a lot of time uncovering and covering back up. The only problem is that it only works for VSP.


----------



## grapeman

As harvest begins in earnest it will be made easier thanks to George at Fine Vine Wines. He has set me up with a manual crusher/destemmer. I used it over the weekend for a number of small batches. It works great and removes all the grapes from the stems.























Then I got home today and the truck was at my place. In it was a #45 Ratchet Press. I look forward to this in speeding up pressing. The apple press works but only does a couple gallons at a pressing.













Here is some LaCrosse after running it through the destemmer- it gets rid of almost all stems.


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## NorthernWinos

Yummmm....Did it get rid of the bugs too??????


----------



## grapeman

I took a quick check of the later ripening varieties this afternoon. I had wondered if Corot Noir would just be too late of a variety for my location. I have 25 of them that are 2 years old. While reading Veraison To Harvest issue #4 for this year (form Cornell) I see that some Corot Noir sampled between 14 and 16.5 brix with pH about 3.2 and TA 7.0-8.5 g/L. I looked at mine and they test the same readings just a few days later. They do taste very good. Here is a picture. The lighting was lousy so the vines look very pale.





Not bad for 2 years old.


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## AlFulchino

impressive!!!!


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## OilnH2O

Nice looking new "toys" ! And I'm sure you're pleased with the results of their first outing



-- thanks for the pictures!


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## NorthernWinos

Lighting is beautiful....awesome grape clusters.


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## grapeman

Today at my vineyard I had all kinds of nice surprises concerning grapes and wine from them. Last year I beat the racoons, deer and turkeys to enough grapes for a gallon or so of Leon Millot. They weren't nearly as ripe as I have them this year. I haven't really tasted any of it since making and bottling. I have had a couple Leon Millot wines before and they were OK but nothing to really note. After working all day, I decided to crack one of my 5 bottles open. Upon opening it I was greeted by a nice fruity black cherry aroma. Swirling it aound and releasing its aromas I lifted it to my nose. Wow, this smells really good- actually better than the Marquette I made. Sipping it, I was surprised with a nice balance for a new wine. The fruit and cherries balances nicely with the light - medium toast Hungarian oak. This turned out very nice from the front, right through to the back finish. Nice lingering flavors with just the right amount of tannins. So much for surprise number one.


I was out sampling grapes to see what I want to harvest next. The St Pepin is hanging very nicely and is getting intense flavors, but keeping a nice amount of acid- not too much, not too little. The LaCosee isn't quite as flavorful, but very good and extremely juicy. That's the first one I will pick. Then the St Pepin and some Leon Millot. The Chardonel tests out at 20 brix, pH 2.95 and TA of 12.5. Getting to be decent numbers for a fruity white. 


Then I walked over by the Traminette and Cab Franc vines. The turkeys ate all the Traminette that were gettingclose-only a few clusters. As I walked by the Cab Franc I spotted 4 clusters. I tasted one- hey not bad- actually fairly ripe. I picked one berry from each cluster and tested. They average out at 18 brix! They actually might ripen here after all! I may not get any more grapes from them this year because the animals and birds will spot them soon but at least I got a taste.


We are hoping to finish up harvest at Willsboro soon, so then I can really get to harvesting and have time to process the grapes. More to follow with pictures coming to a theatre near you soon.


----------



## NorthernWinos

You are living the dream...sipping a good wine...tasting the grapes and planning the next batches.....The wines sound so good.

Hope you beat the critters to your harvests.....

Sounds like you are having good ripening weather out there too. 

I have had the grapes covered since Monday....every night was suppose to have treats of frost....So far so good....Going to uncover the garden tomorrow...just in time for a few days of rain....so it goes.


*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## grapeman

The critters can't get at too much-only the young ons that don't have much crop on. Too much work and money to cover the vines with just a few clusters here and there.


It has been coolish here, but it is October now. I have been waiting to harvest the majority of the grapes until I am done harvesting at Willsboro so I have more time. Almost there! It is supposed to warm up again soon! I hope so because I may need to heat my primaries to get fermentation going! In my newly converted mini-winery it was 52 degrees this AM- a bit cool, but I wanted to wait a couple days to start fermentation on a Buffalo and St Croix I started Wednesday. If need be, I will put a propagation mat under the barrels with a thermostat control.


----------



## Wade E

Are he Buffalo and St. Croix under going cold saturation?


----------



## Wade E

Are he Buffalo and St. Croix under going cold saturation? That all sounds really good there buddy and I hope you get a really good crop. Are you entering any of your own in the comp.?


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## grapeman

It is a kind of cold soak Wade. The Buffalo especially can use a bit of help with color. I have never had any wine made from it so it is new to me and I am experimenting. It is supposed to warm up in a few days, so the timing should be about right. The day after I pitched yeast on the first Frontenac, the cap was rising well. A few days later and it is going gangbusters. It will be nice to eventually have a complete well laid out winery, but for now it is just an old converted milkhouse in the old barn. 


As far as entering wines in Winemaker Magazine - available funds shortly before time will determing HOW MANY I enter. Let's just say if I had a winery permit and these same wines, I would need a large supply or be out of it quickly.


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## Wade E

I hear ya with funds. My wife is starting nursing school in Jan. and that is $18,000 and they just demanded $5,000just to hold her a seat and another $1,000 for her books and uniforms and equip. besides the $18,000!



. I dont know if I can even send any wines now!


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## grapeman

I have been busy now with picking and crushing an d pressing if appropriate. Yesterday I picked LaCrosse and had about 500 pounds altogether from 25 vines- average 20 pounds per vine.















Here is some NY76.844.24 grapes pressed into juice.




I didn't get a picture of the pressed LaCrosse yet since I just finished it up before picking this afternoon- albout 27 gallons in a 32 gallon Brute for fermenting.

This afternoon I picked 13 St. Pepin vines and have 375 pounds so far. I still have 7 more to pick. 

Here is what those looked like picked in a row.



























I will follow up as I go.


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## NorthernWinos

Awesome crop of beautiful grapes......and the yields are really good.....

You are going to have lots of wine going soon.....





Looks like your apples are just falling for the critters to enjoy....

So much fruit...so little time!


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## Wade E

Looking great Rich!


----------



## grapeman

My winemaking equipement keeps growing. Last year I had the blue 20 gallon barrels for primaries with lots of room. This year they are for small batches and the 32 gallon brutes aren't even big enough. I have 4 of them so far. Once I move on to other varieties that have a higher amount of yield I will be filling them up fast. A good thing I will be selling a bunch of them.... I will soon need to use some barrels or the plastic barrels that Al got. They look promising for a small winery like mine. The little 6 gallon carboys are getting a bit small.


----------



## grapeman

Here are a few more pictures of some grapes as harvested. These are Leon Millot grapes - a French-American Hybrid. It makes a nice wine and is lower in acid and higher in sugar than a lot of newer varieties. I really enjoyed the five bottles from last year. This year it will make more like 50 gallons. I trained them two different ways. On one I used a four-arm kniffen system which gave a higher yield and lower vigor(in this case good). They required no in season pruning.It was harvested at 24 brix. Average harvest quantity 17 pounds per vine. 









The vines here are starting to show fall colors. 

The other method was using Verticle Shoot Positioning. VSP. Brix was 22 and average weight was 12 pounds per vine. I had to prune heavily 3 times taking off feet of growth at a time. It also requires constant attention keeping the shoots in the wires. 














Here is a bit of the final product. We call them hand grenade clusters- small tight clusters. 











Based on one years growing - the 4-Arm Kniffen method works better in my soil and climate than does the VSP with Leon Millot Vines. Another couple years should begin to show a trend. 

Here is the extent of Frost damage here at the vineyard when it hit 32 degrees a couple days ago. Just the tip of a very vigorous shoot laying on the ground got hit. 





*Edited by: appleman *


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## AlFulchino

fascinating pictures...thanks for sharing


question.....the vsp leaves look better than the kniffen...what would you attribute this to?


also, i have a favor to ask.....could you take a picture of both trellis trained styles when the leaves are gone so that i could just take a look at the *bones* when the leaves are gone?


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## grapeman

I agree Al the leaves look better on the VSP. They continued to pump out shoots all year and were loaded with chlorophyl while the 4 arm kniffen had shoots about 3 feet long. The leaves matured and put their nutrients into ripening the fruit not renewed growth. I would rather have riper fruit and a manageable vine with higher yield than a pretty vine that is a pain to take care of. Next year may be different, who knows.


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## NorthernWinos

Beautiful grapes.....

Thanks for sharing your photos and your knowledge.

Some photos of your winemaking will be nice too...Hint...Hint!!!


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## grapeman

Don't worry NW, they are coming. I need to set up for the TV station for Burlington Vt tomorrow with a bit of crushing and maybe a fake press(don't need to do one right now) so it will be time to take a few pictures.


Coming soon...........


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## Joanie

The Leon's are just beautiful, Appleman!! I am so impressed! I left one little cluster on mine so I could taste them. They were delish!


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## Wade E

Looks awesome and I see why they call it hand grenades clusters!


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## grapeman

I finished up the Leon Millot vines yesterday getting another 300 plus pounds - enough to fill another 32 gallon Brute almost to the top- just about 6 inches for a cap to rise. I may need to take a bit out tomorrow and put in the other one. I will probaly then put a couple small containers worth back in it because the yeast has started working that one well.


Too bad you can't see the Brutes of white wines working- quite impressive but I know it wouldn't show on a picture. You can actually see it boiling the must around in the container. The small chunks of stuff are rolling from bottom upward in it at a pretty good pace.


I picked about 500 pounds of Frontenac today for some customers- with their help. It took longer than normal with help- lots of talking, questions and mini-tours. I had a two hour interview with the TV station folks. They enjoyed having a personnal vineyard and mini-winery tour. 


Sorry no pictures yet. I will try to post them tomorrow.


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## Wade E

Sounds great Rich, do you still have more customers coming?


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## grapeman

I have more lined up for tomorrow. Monday I will take part of the day off to go out and try to do a bit of thinning in the vineyard and orchard. If lucky enough I will be filling the freezer up a bit at the same time. My thinning tool of choice is .50 cal black powder. Season began today and I was so busy that I didn't even remember.


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## Wade E

After you shoot them you smoke them out huh!


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## grapeman

Yeah, I keep a few oak spirals handy and use them for a ramrod. Just leave that sucker in there and when you discharge that smoke breathing dragon, you smoke the meat with oak. I would use Hickory, but then I would have to buy it instead of reused oak spirals!


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## Wade E

All I can say to that is YUMMMMM!


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## grapeman

Just a few pictures since I am short on time. 
NW wanted some pictures of wine in the making. The first is just a shot of some of the primary fermenters going. 
























Frontenac Grapes 
The clusters are average 8-12 inches long and about 5-6 inches wide. They are bigger than the pictures make them look so they add up quickly.



















Leon Millot in the Brutes 














*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## AlFulchino

outstanding pictures


Rich who is the maker of the netting in the pictures? how did the sutton net work out?


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## Wade E

What are those other blue containers or what was their primary purpose?


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## grapeman

The white netting is Spec Tresllis netting. It works great for VSP and the material is like a knit nylon type netting with about 3/8 inch holes in a bell shape. They also make a 14 foot over the top out of the same material. I may try it next year. 


The Sutton Ag net worksed well with no loss to animals, but it does seem a bit flimsy compared to the net we got from the Ag Experiment Station in Geneva. For the price of it, I am very satisfied.


----------



## grapeman

Wade the blue containers are 20 gallon containers that are food safe plastic. They have a seal on the lid and handles. I wish I had bought more of them. I use them for primaries that will hold about 150 pounds of grapes each. I am going to try drilling one lid and see if I can fit an airlock on it. I will try bulk aging in one to see how it goes. I will bring the wine level up to about a half inch below the lip, fill the headspace with gas and put the airlock in. I will try it with a white that won't need to be in it too long. Next year I will get some of the tubes like Al got- a few 50's and a few 100's.


I know the area isn't fancy, but it is functional. There is a sloped concrete floor and drain and a concrete stub wall all around. Cleanup is a breeze. I will eventually fancy it up some more and get the electricity going in there again, but I disconnected it years ago. For now I just run a heavy leadcord in for small amounts of power.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Thanks for all the photos...
The Wine looks great and the photos of the grapes are outstanding.....





*Edited by: Northern Winos *


----------



## Wade E

Just drill a 1" hole preferably with a Forstner bit and use a #6 rubber bung. Thats what I did with almost all my primaries as those stupid little grommets all leaked for me. Or do you need bigger airlocks for something that size?


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## grapeman

I plan on using a forstner bit and use a regular airlock with bung. I don't ever get a good seal with the little ones. By the way, the containers held citric acid before. I used them last year for the bigger batches, now they are little batches. Next year the 32 gallon Brutes will be little batches.


As a side note, my estimates of harvest were actually pretty close overall to actual harvest. I am tracking each vines harvest weight. It is a bit more work, but it will help in the future for pruning decisions and cluster thinning. The one that I was way off on was the St. Pepin. The actual yield was much higher than estimates. Frontenac is running just a tad on the lower side, but that is because of incpmplete cordon development this year. There were a few missing arms here and there. As a result, the newly formed cordon had two clusters on it as opposed to 24-30 clusters(dropping overall yield). I didn't expect a huge yield- these were third yearvines. A lot of growers don't even take a crop in the third year.


----------



## hannabarn

WOW! That is just beautiful. I thought I would like to take a trip to help you pick grapes but I can't spend the winter there !! I would be overwhelmed.


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## grapeman

Thanks Barney. I am closing in on finishing up harvest. I have the Chardonel to harvest. There is only a few hundred pounds of those. They can be picked whenever I get to them. I could try to get another brix or two out of them. It is warm here now again for a week or so. I may pick them tomorrow just to get them done since I won't need to work my regular job. I also have Catawbas left to pick. They read 18 brix yesterday so they are approaching readiness in a week or so.Then there are a few young vines of late varieties to pick but that won't take long. It is a good thing I am almost done. Things are filling up fast and I will have plenty to top up with to get to my wine limit.


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## Wade E

Better save up your money Rich as you are going to be needing lots of holding tanks next year!




*Edited by: wade *


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## Jack on Rainy

Great picts Appleman,
Thanks for sharing.
J


----------



## grapeman

I decided to pick the Chardonel today. I had the day to myself and it is going to cool down later this weeks so I figured I would pick them today. Brix was at 22 and pH at 3.02. TA is a touch high at 12, but very workable for a white. I had them trained two ways- VSP on 16 of them and cane pruned to establish a fan. This was the training year for that method so only averaged 2.5 pounds per vine on the fan. The VSP was about a 12 pound average of beautiful grapes. Here are pictures.














































Now I need to go out and crush and de-stem them. I will soak for 24 hours with pectic enzyme and press tomorrow. Should yield about 15 gallons.


----------



## Scott

Very nice Appleman,
Makes me want to quite the day job to make wine, but I guess then it wouldn't be just a hobby. Nice arrangement with the leaves, have you had photo training?


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## NorthernWinos

Beautiful photos with the </font>purple leaves.... </font> Perhaps a label?????


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## Wade E

Looks awesome as usual! Wouldnt we all like to quit our day job and do that!


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## grapeman

Including me Wade and all you others that think it is my Day Job!


----------



## OilnH2O

I'll just chime in to add my two cents on how great these pic's look!





We had our first big "killing" frost (to 27*) on Friday the 10th -- then snow flurries on Sunday the 12th, although in the low 30's -- and today all the leaves are mostly gone (and not just to the deer, bless their little hearts!) or shriveled!





Next year should be "money" if I can defeat the 4-legged's !!


----------



## Waldo

Every home winemakers dream appleman !! Thanks for sharing with the rest of us...just awesome !!!


----------



## Bert

Great pictures Appleman...Thank You for sharing....It gives me some good things to dream about...


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## grapeman

Tomorrow I need to rack a bit of wine to secondary. I could have done it today, but had other things to do. There is about 28 gallons of LaCrosse and about 18 gallons of NY 76.844.24. They are close to 1.000 so it needs to be done. The vigorous bubbling and fizzing you could hear from 15 feet away subsided so I checed the SG- lower than I anticipated. I put in a temporary shelf 14 feet long by two feet wide to hold a few carboys. I will get to try out my vacumn racking system. If all goes well I will post a few pictures.


I may also need to press my batch of Noiret grapes and make a couple mini-batches of two year old grapes. I should have enough grapes for a gallon each of my own Corot Noir and GR-7 grapes.


----------



## Wade E

What do you set the pump for Rich?


----------



## grapeman

I will let you know Wade when I get it all set up. I have had all the components for close to a year now, but have yet to use it for transfer.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Appleman - Those are some FANTASTIC looking grapes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## grapeman

Thanks Bonnie. Did you see the Frontenac and Leon Millot also or just see the Chardonel? There are picuteres on previous pages from this harvest also.


----------



## grapeman

Here are some pictures from racking with my little aspirator vacumn pump. Don't worry, it was new and not used for it's intended purposes.






Here is the pump- excuse the crude bench- it is in place for holding all the carboys I need to fill(or at least some).





It takes about 8 inches for it to work best and moves about a gallon a minute with the 3/8" hose.
Stick the racking cane in the source- this one is NY76.0844.24
and it moves it through the tube to the waiting carboy
























And onto the LaCrosse brute container.





Getting done with them




Did a Frontenac Gris and Vignoles






And now "The Whole Shebang"






Hope you enjoyed the tour.

Edit:
I know someone is going to ask - maybe you Wade? so I will give the answer first. The blue painters tape is to make sure the bungs stay put. My local wine shop only carries #7 bungs and when they are new they tend to pop out. I tape them in for a while to make sure they don't pop out. I have had it happen before to me. Like a dummy I forgot to order more multi-fit bungs and airlocks from George before I needed them.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## NorthernWinos

Thanks for sharing the photos..Nice to see how 'The BIG Guys' do it.


----------



## Waldo

I like that pump appleman. thats "slicker than snot on a doorknob"


----------



## BonnieJoy

You betcha! I saw ALL your grape varietes. They're real beauties.


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## Wade E

Great pics Rich, what did you mean about needing 8 inches? And yes I was going to ask about the painters tape!


----------



## grapeman

Wade I found 8 inches of vacuum works best. It starts to draw at about 5, but when I ran it at 8, it moved faster.


----------



## Wade E

OK thanks, wasnt sure if you meant an 8" height differential. That looks awesome by the way and Im sure that the pump really saved your back by not having to lift up all those full carboys! Let us know how the degassing goes with it and what you set that at, Im pretty sure that you have done 1 batch already with it though, have you done others with it also?


----------



## Dean

my first thought was "wow nice". My second one was "what's with the blue tape?" and you answered before I could ask.

What did you use to press the grapes to get the juice, and how did you press? Crush first and press, or press whole clusters? What kind of press?*Edited by: Dean *


----------



## grapeman

Wade I have used it to degas quite a bit but never to transfer. I set it at the max it will pull which is about 22-24" vacuum. It works very well.


Dean if you check back a few pages you will see the destemmer and press I use. They both came from George. The destemmer/crusher works well for my quantities. For whites I runthe grapesthrough and add liquid pectic enzyme. I then let it set overnight and press the following morning with the #45 ratchet press. I get varying amounts depending on ripeness and variety. The amount of must varies from 12-15 pounds. I found it presses easier and doesn't squeeze the grapes out if I put layers of stems back in every few inches. It gives the juice a path to follow.


With reds I run them through the destemmer/crusher into the Brutes and add pectic enzyme, nutrient and a bit of sulfite. I let it sit for a day and then pitch the yeast. It gets going well and I let it ferment in general about a week on the skins then press. There are a couple varieties that I press soon because they have excessive color and tannins. I am not doing any of these this year.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

What a busy place yours has been getting the harvest in and the wines started. Looks Great!


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## AlFulchino

great pictures Rich.....both beautiful and educational!


----------



## grapeman

How's your wine doing Al? Haven't heard from you in a few days.


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, re: your comment about putting in stems (in layers) for the wine to follow - just how do you do that???


----------



## grapeman

OilnH2O said:


> Rich, re: your comment about putting in stems (in layers) for the wine to follow - just how do you do that???




It's really easy Dave. I have a tub to catch the stems from the destemmer. I cover it after destemming and keep it until the next day when I press the whites. I take a few handsful of stems and lay on the bottom. Then put in about 6 inches of must followed by another layer of stems and so on finishing off with stems and then the press plates. When you press, it keeps the berries from coming out the cracks at the tops and makes pressing easier and more complete.


Reds don't need the stems. They are pretty soft after fermenting for a week.


----------



## AlFulchino

Hi Rich.....been a bit busy...had to start work on a small greenhouse..had a court day and then today we racked x gallons to the wine cellar...we had an old waterfall pump in a box that i never had opened...just a small one and hooked it up to 150 feet of food grade hose and pumped it from the garage to the wine cellar (basement)


I hope to rack my own grapes tomorrow or this weekend...i have one small batch that may have gone vinegar on me....luckily its only a gallon or two
Your progress is looking fabulous!

oh..and by the way i had a bung stuck in a carboy from last year.....and that trick on You tube came in handy...we got the bung right out after inflating the bag inside the carboy....it was a bit of a tug..but out it came


----------



## grapeman

Yesterday was Catawba harvest day. It got down into the upper 20's overnight and was there again last night. The vines are on their way out so I decided it was time to pick on the weekend. I want to make Catawba wine with a bit of a pink hue so I am crushing them and letting soak with pectic enzyme for two days before crushing. Anyways back to the harvest. It was a bit special for me because my boys don't help out much in the vineyard. My oldest son Joe came out and helped me get the nets off and after a while he came back out with his youngest brother Will. A bit later the middle son Rick came out, so naturally I needed to get a picture of it - My Three Sons picking grapes. It really sped things up and we were done picking about 500 pounds in no time.







Here are the grapes first as shown by my son Joe's hand.






Then mine with a smaller bunch






Some in the rows waiting picking









And Seventeen lugs in the pickup going to be crushed at "le Winery"















THE END


----------



## NorthernWinos

Nice the boys all pitched in...will make a nice 'Family Wine' and a day to remember.

Pretty clusters of grapes.....Hope you get your color extraction your looking for.


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## AlFulchino

beautiful!....you might even name it My Three Son's Wine....or better yetage it three differentways and nameeach after them....that will put a connection on it for them that you and theycannot lose...


....afterall...it is not just vines we are growing!


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## Wade E

Those look very pretty with that hue! Glad you finally got some help.


----------



## grapeman

I thought I would throw this in here for a comparison. The first is a shot after pruning and training Catawba to an umbrella kniffen. Then the second shot is the same vine at harvest.










So when you guys prune, remember that you get grapes off what grows in the pruning year so you don't need to leave a ton of vines.*Edited by: appleman *


----------



## AlFulchino

so you have four canes in the spring photo for that trellis system..i am assuming you will leave the same four canes for next year and remove any and all laterals...do you leave any renewal cane growth?


will you spray the canes w anything ( like SO) after the leaves fall?


----------



## grapeman

Al you keep the same trunk/trunks, but usually pick 4 new canes that grew well this year but aren't bull canes. You keep ones the correct thickness and long enough to go over the top wire and bend over down to the second wire. The bend is supposed to check the growth somewhat. This is only the umbrella kniffen I used on the Catawba. The rest are pruned other ways. I am trying to sort out what works best with my soil on my varieties. So far I have tentatively seen the Leon Millot, St. Pepin and LaCrosse do best on the 4-Arm Kniffen. The Frontenac definitely did better on the VSP. I liked the way the umbrella kniffen performed with the Catawba as opposed to Fan or 4 Arm Kniffen. Don't mirror my methods because they may not work for you. 


Thr Frontenac dropped about 75 percent of their leaves TODAY. Others have frozen hard now, but are still hanging tough. I plan NO spray this autumn. MY grapes are clean enough to me to be happy(vines and all). I don't want to waste spray, pollute the environment more than needed or contribute to disease resistance buildup. Every vineyard should be evaluated itself to determine if a spray is beneficial. I had some folks out this afternoon picking Niagara grapes. They were in awe over how clean and big the clusters were. I told them they are normally bigger, but they had overcropped this year and I hadn't thinned them. We got about 40 pounds per vine of them. They said they are used to picking tiny cluster of tiny diseased grapes. They thought they were very sweet also- but the brix was the lowest I have ever had to harvest Niagara grapes.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Those Catawba suremake a pretty fruit, good to see the kids get involved!


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## grapeman

I thought I would post a couple pictures of how the Catawba turned out after pressing after a day and a half soak with pectic enzyme and a medium tight press. I think it will have the strawberry pink hue I am after.


----------



## Waldo

MMMMMMM that sure smells good appleman !!!


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## Wade E

I think I have enough racking hose t insert there and suck till it hits my primary bucket!


----------



## grapeman

Just one primary bucket Wade. I gave that much to an aquaintance on Sunday after picking and still got about 33-34 gallons today! I had to take out a few gallons from the brute and add to a primary bucket to have room for the last of the press. I'm hoping it comes out nice after the boys helped pick it.


----------



## Wade E

I didnt say how bi the primary bucket was did I?


----------



## BonnieJoy

That Catawba is gorgeuos - both on the vine &amp; in your bucket. Are you going for afruit forward style with it? How's the aroma? I adore a good catawba wine. The French Lick Winery in southern Indiana does a nice job with it as does Stone Hill Winery in Hermann MO. Let us know how this one progresses.


----------



## grapeman

I pitched the yeast in the Catawba today. I wanted to use Cotes des Blancs, but the LHBS was out of it so I needed to use 71B-1122 instead. I pressed the Niagara and the smell was great even if the fruit wasn't totally ripe. I'm not discouraged by it though- the best one I ever made was from unripe fruit. It actually had the Niagara nose, but not the off flavors it can sometimes get. I pressed out another 18-20 gallons of Frontenac today also. I only have one more pressing of Frontenac to do- good thing too. I am running out of carboys and other vessels to hold the wine. Boy am I going to need some of those Flex-tanks next year! I won't say how many gallons worth of "juice" I have, but I certainly have plenty of "topping off wine" above and beyond 200 gallons. I even have a few carboys of other peoples wines we are making in "le Winery". I gave my LHBS proprietor enough Frontenac for 6 gallon batch and today she sent up a few packs of the yeast and a 10 gallon fermenter. I feel like a "Mad Scientist" lately with all the bubbling carboys lined up. I like the 20 gallon blue barrels. I fitted them with airlocks and they make a really neat sounding "BLUUURRRPPP" sound every little while.


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie, yes I am going for the fruity version of the Catawba. I had hoped to use Cotes des Blancs on it for more fruit, but had to settle for the 1122- and that should be fine. I have enough of it that I will make several different sweetnesses and styles to see what is best. I should have enough for 5 or6 carboys full so will have plenty to experiment with.


----------



## grapeman

A little detour here on the wine making and grape growing. You could say the growing season has officially ended here. After several hard freezes this last week, this morning we are expecting highs in the 30's with mixed rain and snow. I tried to get a picture of the vineyard with it snowing, but it was too dark and cloudy for the camera. Here is a picture of the truck with leaves and snow on it. Yuck!


----------



## NorthernWinos

Oh NO!!!!!! Say it isn't so. You went from summer to this in just a couple days.

They said we could get rain mixed with some snow flakes on Sunday......Today just rain and now it's only 37*....





You did get all your grapes harvested didn't you????

I still have carrots, kohlrabi, Brussels sprouts and broccoli to get out of the garden.....as well as the flower bulbs....so will be busy when it dries out again.....

Hope the snow is gone when the sun gets up. 

*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## hannabarn

Yuck is right! So far we have had a great fall, Just a few overnight frosts. In the 50s for the last few days.


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## Wade E

Already Rich!!!!!!


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## grapeman

It actually snowed on and off until noon today. I'm glad it wasn't sticking on the ground. The rooftops and vehicles coated were enough. I talked with a person from a bit to the west in the hills. He said there were cars going by with 3 inches of snow on them. I'm glad I finished up harvest when I did. The high today was under 40 degrees and it was 35 out at 6:00 this evening.


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## NorthernWinos

It's snowing south of us....Guess the colder air is down there.. Blizzard warnings in Kansas and Nebraska...That's awful.

Started raining during the night again...suppose to clear off tomorrow and maybe snow/rain on the weekend and temps in the 20's....





Met up with a friend at Sam's Club in the city today...they still have 900 acres of soybeans, 400 acres of sunflowers and 500 acres of corn to harvest....she said the water is just sitting in their fields and the custom harvesters are sitting....pretty grim!!! 

Guess we are lucky to just have the little bit of corn left in our fields and the cultivation to do....things could be worse.

*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## Waldo

Still in the mid 70's down here. getting some rain today and supposed to cool down to mid 60's for next few days.


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## rgecaprock

*Richard...I know when I see that red vehicle...that it is probably due to some weather condition that involves snow, ice etc. It is so amazing how different it can be in parts of the county.*



*Coolest night...in Houston....this season Tonight...Made a small fire in the fire place for the first time. (Cozy !!)*

*40's tonight.....80's tomorrow and this weekend. It heats up fast here. Looking forward to low humidity and cool temps.*

*This is my favorite Houston time of year!!!*

*From here out...could have80 degree Christmas. Ice storms that flatten everything. Days to get a Tan.....Days to get in from the coldrain. Winds that howl. Get the longjohns out. Brrrrr to everyone. Hot Cocoa, Coffee with Baileys Irish Creme. Hot tea......And it isn't really cold here... We make the most of the cool temps we get!!!! and pretend it is really winter and cold.*

*Ramona*

*It is 57 at this minute.......a cold front for Houstonians!!!*


----------



## Joanie

Appleman. how do you spell "ice wine"?


----------



## grapeman

Eiswein" of course




Unless it is "Vin de glace".






Either way I won't know about that- the grapes are all in! It is 25 outside again this morning. There was frost yesterday until noon. It is hard to get fermenting temps warm enough, but everything is either done fermenting or bubbling away happlily inside. I have a definite glass shortage right now!


----------



## BonnieJoy

They're predicting snow the next couple of days here in NE Indiana. Most of the grape leaves are done for the year. Wish I'd have waited until I had a wellto plant the vines. Things were looking good until the JB's started feasting on vegetation followed by the August drought.The biggest lesson learned was total organic isn't gonna cut it with JB's not to mention my site needed fertilization.



I'm networking now with a young horticulturist berry farmerwho is recommending a fertilization and spraying regimen for me next year.Does anyone on this forum use drip irrigation?


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie get us some pictures of your vines as they are now. I don't care how bad you might think they look. If I remember right, you just planted them this year. They should be between 2 and 12 feet long depending on variety and conditions to be normal. You will prune back almost to the ground next spring and the roots that developed as a result of the drought this year will feed them well and make them grow like you won't believe. While I agree you may need a touch of fertilizer and possibly a drip irrigation now and again, don't overdo it with the fertilizer and water or you will regret it for years to come. The vines will become rank and unmanageable growing like weeds and being a general pain to control.


I use some drip irrigation in the high tunnel greenhouse at Willsboro. It only supplies water where you want it and works well.


I agree with you that you will need some sort of control for the japanese beetles. For me the easiest solution is a light spray or dusting of Sevin (carbaryl). It is one of the safer and gentler pesticides and has been around for many years. 2 or 3 sprays of it is enough to control them for the season. It also works with Grape Flea Beetles and a variety of other insects. Just be sure to follow and obey all label recommendations and guidelines- especially around bees and water(especially with your pond close by).


Here's hoping your vines do great in the upcoming years!


----------



## grapeman

I transfered some more wines to glass today- at least as much as I had. I had to taste them as I went. Lots of different flavors and aromas! The Catawba is still actively fermenting and is turning a beautiful pink color and the smells are incredible. I added some to a fruity wine I had to carbonate it and it was quite good already!


I transferred the Chardonel to glass and it already started to clear. WOW, the flavors are incredible! I can't wait to see what it will be like in the end.


The vines are just about bare now and I will soon take some pictures to show Al and others the "Bones" of the vines. It is quite interesting to be able to see the structure unencumbered with leaves.


----------



## grapeman

I am glad the grapes are all harvested and bubbling along happily in their new homes- "it is going to snow in them thar hills!"  Actually we are expecting 2-4 inches of the white stuff tonight into tomorrow. The mountains to the west and east of us are expecting about a foot. It is already snowing 20 miles or so to the west and along with 40 mph winds expected, it sounds just plain nasty.
 
Most of the wine is in carboys or barrels now. I still have the Catawba bubbling merrily away along with the Niagara. I also have to press out the last of the Frontenac in a few days. I thought I could transfer the Catawba today, but it is still too actively fizzing away. That's probably a good thing since it is prolonging the fermentation- hopefully retaining that wonderful smell of the grapes. I'm hoping it will fit in a 20 gallon barrel and a couple six gallon carboys. Then all I need to do is find some carboys for the Niagara and Frontenac.























The leaves are about gone. This is one of the young Frontenac trained to VSP this year.




*Edited by: appleman *


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## NorthernWinos

That's quite a line up of carboys....Are your barrels and brutes worthy of a nice photo like that too????

We had that storm on Sunday....Strong North winds with gusts into the 50MPH range....We had blowing rain and occasional snow flakes mixing in...Some stuck on the grass for a very short time....It was miserable. Last night it got to 22*F for many hours...It was suppose to get into the teens...Glad it didn't I still have some veggies in the shed that need homes.

Button down the hatches...It's going to be very windy.


----------



## AlFulchino

i believe we are well over 150 gallons in thos pics.....when you get to a certain point like you are, one needs to either stop coounting ori think you need to find the numbers chart that has the infamous 'x'


all looking very good


did you put any gas in thos carboys that are less than full? ( i never have..just wondering)


thanks for the 'bones' picture!


----------



## grapeman

I, like you,am at the upper thresholds of home winemaking. To be fair though, some of those carboys belong to others that used my equipment to make their wine to bring home after racking a couple times to avoid the mess and use my equipement. Case in point- note the carboy hauler under one of them. I do however have plenty of topping up wine, but I am striving to keep within the 200 gallon limit for a household for a home winemaker. It has meant abstaining from making any kits this year- which I like to do for variety.


The carboys less than full are finishing up secondary fermentation and still emmitting C02, so no they haven't been gassed and will soon be condensed down. 


I will give you more pictures of the bare vines when I get time to take them.


----------



## grapeman

Winter is quickly approaching and things are looking more like it. Here a a few pictures of the chages going on.

Example of VSP trained vines before pruning season next spring.






Here is a Traminette pruned to get cuttings. I kept a number of canes pruned long and will tie and adjust them in the spring.






If I want a couple batches of late cider or to make wine, I have some trees still hanging with plenty of apples. They look odd-no leaves and lots of apples.






Moving inside........

The Catawba wines. Notice how different carboys have dropped lees at differing rates and as such have different colors. The reddest one I pressed harder and got more color with it. They will be racked soon off the lees.






Some of the whites






And finally some of the boys on a heat mat for MLF to finish up


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## AlFulchino

great pictures, thanks for sharing....will you use any chitosin or other clarifying agents? i just did on some of mine after racking and two days later its like i have to rack again right away...i think however i wil let them sit a month before racking again because i have various oak applications sitting in the tanks and carboys anyways


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## jobe05

I see a label in the near future.....................

*Bare Naked Apple.............




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## NorthernWinos

Naked Apple is good!!!!

Had some punch at a Halloween part once....it was called 'Skip and go Naked' by the maker....Wishful thinking.


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## RkyMtnWine

Running out of backyard room. Picture on left is what I have now. Trunk up from ground about 8", I trained it to split so I had two going up.. Picture on right is what I have planned.... not sure if it will work. Planting two vines next to each other.. frontenac is one and oops forgot the name but it requires the frontenac for pollinator. Can I do this?


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## grapeman

With grapes, anything is possible. What do yoy hope to accomplish by doing this? You will only have half the crop of Frontenac and need to wait a few years to get a good crop from the other.


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## RkyMtnWine

space is a big issue.. in a sunny area, plan on expanding the garden area where I would plant these but it would be a squeeze. But if they dont mature at the same time it would not be a good move. Believe in timeI would be able to harvest enoughfor a gallon of each. Just a thought


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## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> great pictures, thanks for sharing....will you use any chitosin or other clarifying agents? i just did on some of mine after racking and two days later its like i have to rack again right away...i think however i wil let them sit a month before racking again because i have various oak applications sitting in the tanks and carboys anyways




The reds are still undergoing MLF, sot they sit as is until done. I could clarify the whites after racking, but I will just let them sit after racking. I will be turning the heat off in there after MLF is done and let everything cold stabilize. As the tartarics precipitate out, they drag solids with them. Then if not clear, I might add something.


Good questions.


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## Wade E

Havent you had a frost that would kill the apples or do they still taste fine? There is a person not to far from my house that I discovered a month ago that had quite the supply of apples hanging which I will confront next year about this. If there are still apples there would they still be good?


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## grapeman

The apples on that tree are named Enterprise and are still good. They are a VERY late ripening apple and very hard. I could still pick them and they would be fine. The apples contain quite a bit of sugars and are like grapes. Some keep well after freezing (to a certain point). Think about the grapes that are made into icewine. I have picked these some years into December. Others turn to mush long before then. Check with your neighbor, they might still be good, depending on the variety. My sister keeps after me to pick them and sell. I could waste my time trying, but I have enough other things to do. We have about a million bushels of apples grown within our County here, so it is hard to be a small producer. Everybody wants to have bragging rights and buy from the big guys.


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## Wade E

I know they would be good when frozen just didnt know they would be good after thawing and refreezing like that after a few times. I will have to swing by that house that I normally dont go by and see if there are still any hanging. Looks like there are 2 huge trees and I dont think they do anything with them.


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## grapeman

It would be worth checking it out. They might be good. I wish you could come up and get some here. There are so many even the deer can't eath them all!


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## Wade E

Would be awesome, you need to set up over here so I can help you clean up all your over run!


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## Waldo

So maybe we all need to pool our resources/talents, buy up the property and open us a wine commune and a winery to sustain everyone.


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## Wade E

Hey, Rich can design the place and I know a few of us can build the darn thing! Rich cn teach us all how to grow the vines, we will need some hunters to get us some food and Waldo can take them out with the rocks from the land from what I hear.


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## grapeman

There is a lot of talent here on the board also for growing veggies and small fruits. Smurfe and others can brew beer and it will be the happiest darned place around.


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## Wade E

Lets pick a place over by Jobe where the weather is decent all year round. Im tired of these heating bills and dont want to be sweating all year round either. Jobe how much land do you own?


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## grapeman

Hey do you guys remember this picture from a month or so ago?








Those two little gallon carbabies (thnks NW for the term) are filled with LaCrosse wine as are a few carboys.


They were these grapes












As grapes they are very juicy and taste a bit bland and acidic. I wish I had a picture of the wine . I drew off a 375 ml bottle out of my top-up gallon jug. It has cleared as good as it ever got last year (very clear). I brought it in at dinner time and sweetened the same as this summer when I sweetened and bottled the LaCrosse from last year at Willsboro. They had been picked a bit early last year, but I ldft on the vines until they were extremely juicy. 


How is this early wine? IMPRESSIVE!!!!! I honestly think this is the best white wine I have made to date!!!! The flavors are astounding - apples, pears and guava abound. The body is fairly good, but could be improved just a bit. I have just the wine for that task. the Adalmiina (ES 6-16-30) will take care of that task with an addition of about 10% and that will even add a touch of pineapple. 


All you guys out there growing your own grapes are going to have FUN when they get bearing well. Make the best wine you can from a particular grape noting its strong and weak points. Then grab another wine that will compliment it and mix away! It doesn't take a lot of a secondary wine to improve on the strong points of the original.


----------



## Wade E

We dont believe you, you are going to have to send each and every 1 of us a bottle to prove yourself!


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## grapeman

Better yet, each and every one of you will have to stop up next year for a tasting. Then again, maybe I should send George down a bunch of samples for the upcoming Winestock.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Great to have such a selection to complement the other when blending. Sounds like you hit a home run on this one!


----------



## K&GB

Appleman, I was expecting a before and after picture. Nice description though. Let us know how the blend turns out. Congratulations andCheers!


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## grapeman

Yeah I should have gotten an after picture, but when you have seen one empty glass you have seen them all



Seriosly though, I didn't have a camera with me when I stopped in the winery to snag a little bottle. I had a bottle with me in the treestand to stay warm (and it did work some) and decided to stop in and get a little bottle on the way by because the top up bottle is half empty and I don't want it oxydized. It was just a bonus that it turned out so good!


----------



## BonnieJoy

Cab Franc - 1 yr






Traminette - 1 yr






Vidal - 2 yr


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## NorthernWinos

Wish I could grow better varieties and have more choices.....

No shortage of land to grow things on, but don't want to get in over my head....Really have too much to look after already....so will continue with the fruits and hardy grapes and try to make do with what we have going.....


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## grapeman

Bonnie the first row near the camera in this picture is Traminette and the second row behind it is Cab Franc. They are both 2nd year. I hope yours look like that at the end of next year. I left enough vines to prune whichever method I decide will work best. The Cab Franc has much more upright growth, although the Traminette is more vigorous. This end of the rows is the driest on the farm so the vines are smaller than at the other end. I like the grass in your pictures- I have snow instead!





*Edited by: appleman *


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## BonnieJoy

Thanks Richard. Sometime in the Spring the retirement cottage will be ready and I can finally givemy little vines the TLC they deserve. I canwatch the vines grow right from from the dining room table.


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## grapeman

That will be really nice Bonnie. I bet you can't wait for that. I know I can look out my office windows and see the vineyard. Some days I swear you can see the vines growing in the spring.


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## farmer

I look out the family room picture window directlly at my vineyard . I really enjoy the view in the morning. It is located along the driveway so is always a topic for conversation for anyone stopping in.


----------



## BonnieJoy

There isn't anything much more beautiful than a well manicured vineyard. How lovely your views must be. It just happened that the prime planting site runs North to South, adjacent &amp; parallelto the county road and perpendicular to our driveway. Neighbors have been curious enough to stop to ask questions about all of those posts in the ground. Some were excited about the vineyard and offered to help harvest. Of course, they're expected wine refreshments from last year's vintage as they work






West side of cottage. Vineyard on right and my car in the drive on the left:








View from Dining Room window:


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## Wade E

Looking good Bonnie!


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## BonnieJoy

Northern - Your fruits &amp; veggies are awesome!!!!! I have immensley enjoyed seeing the photos on your posts. I don't know how you keep up with all that you've got. My small raised bed veggie gardens &amp; those 75 vines kept me plenty busy this Summer and they'repostage stamp sized compared to yours. All the wine experts say to match the grape varieties to your conditions so you're definitley doing the right thing staying with cold hardy types.


----------



## grapeman

Now that's a nice retirement size cottage. Small enough to be cozy and easily taken care of and large enough to live in. You will have a beauty of a setup there next year.


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## Waldo

And i'm sure there will be plenty of help from the neighbors on the vineyard


----------



## grapeman

This is post number 5000 for me so I wanted to place it here. Nothing earth shattering for it, but then I only have half as many posts as Wade does in about the same amount of time. 


This afternoon I went out to the winery to check and see if I need to rack or anything over the weekend. Things are really clearing up pretty well for the most part since the weather is cooling down.


I felt I had to try some of the Catawba since it looks so nice in the carboys. It has some great flavors going on in there, but will need sweetening to counter the acids. That's common for Catawba and the flavors in it of spices and strawberry hold up well.


Hmmmm what else can I sample..... maybe the Leon Millot that decided it wanted to do a malo on itself- so I let it. OK. I pulled the bung, inserted the thief and pulled a sample into the test beaker. Ready to do a TA or some other test on it? Nope just test it with the tongue. Well it looks pretty clear with a nice sheen through it with nice ruby colors shining on my hand. How does it taste? Will it still be just a bit tart? How about smells- will it be flat? No- this wine tastes pretty darned good now even with absolutely no oak- not sure it will need it. Fruit flavors abound already, especially black cherry. Aromas are great for a French Hybrid and the tannins are there but not in excess.


I will be pulling some more samples tomorrow and if I'm still standing by the end of the day I will post some more comments and maybe even a few more pictures.


----------



## AlFulchino

looking forward to the notes and also to post 5001


----------



## grapeman

Well I wasn't able to get pictures of the wines. It was just too dark the last couple days. I did however get to sample a bunch of the wines.


NY76.0844.24 - extremely floral smells with lots of apples, pears and a bunch of miuscat. I left two carboys untreated and added a single oak spiral to one. The regular has an astounding flavor- again apples, pears, muscat and some other things I can't put my fingers on. The acids are just about right and with just a touch of sweetening, it will be great. The one with the oak has a totally different flavor profile and seems to have more body. Same basic flavors as the plain, but muted with a nice punch of vanilla. Interesting.


Next the Chardonel - what can I say, a great wine wine apple and pears. More fruity than a chardonnay so I am leaving with no oak. 


Vignoles- Wow. The grapes had a touch of botrytis when picked and they made a great classic Vignoles. I know how Joan won at the NYS fair with this one(if memory serves me correctly).


St. Pepin- perfect acid to balance out all the apple and apricot flavors.


LaCrosse- I did an MLF on this one and tested it for completion today(done). The acids had been a bit high on this one, but now it has mellowed greatly and the flavors are almost as pronounced as the St. Pepin.


LaCrescent- one of the great new Minnesota varieties. TA is at 9 g/L now- just about perfect to allow just a bit of sweetening to bring out the floral even more. I did MLF on this one Also.


Frontenac Gris- MLF is done on this one now too. I am blown away by the differences between this and regular Frontenac. Truly a fruity white.


ES 6-16-30 -Adalmiina- Body is this ones strong suit. Flavors are good but not as pronounced as some of the others. More body than all the others. Great for blending.


Catawba- pretty high in acid but brimming with spice and strawberry. Will need sweetening.


Niagara- true Niagara all the way


Frontenac- Longer hang time this year benfited it greatly. Black Cherry is it's stong suit. MLF did wonders on it and it is well rounded with a nice balance of tannins and just enough acid.


Leon Millot- Again cherries are ever present, smooth and silky. Just enough tannins. Great all around this year.


Noiret- MLF is good on this one this year. It is filled with black and green peppers and a nice amount of Cherry.


Corot Noir- Cherry, full taniins front to back and jsut a bit of black pepper make this one a winner in my book.


Buffalo- spicy goodness with flavors totally unexpected in a light red wine. A bit thin and a nice rose color.


St Croix- excellent body and flavors coming around well. Without any of it's Lambrusca background in the flavors.


GR7- much better this year than last. No vegetal flavors. Nice tannins and a pretty fair cherry flavor.


I probably forgot a few, but this will let you guys get a preliminary feel for all these hybrids. All for now.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Did you swallow????





Or, spit??????


----------



## grapeman

Why would I waste good wine by spitting? I just split the tasting over the two days and they were just small amounts. I rarely spit


----------



## NorthernWinos

Okay....thought that was a lot of tasting.....





Sounded good to me.


----------



## grapeman

I must say I am having great fun with the rackings of these wines this year. Today I needed to rack6 gallons of Noiret, 18 gallons of Leon Millot Batch One, 3 Gallons Leon Millot Batch 2,5 Gallons Buffalo and move a 5 and a 1 gallon Catawba to a 6 so I could have the other 5 to rack the Buffalo into another 5. Naturally I needed to sample them to tell what each one might need or if it is good as it stands. I am looking forward to a good year with the Noiret. It didn't do as well this year as last and was very acidic for some reason. I didn't get any of the grapes last year so I don't have any for comparison, but regardles of the acid, it is a very nice grape. I have never tasted any red wine of any kind overflowing with black cherry flavors as this one has. You would swear you were drinking a soda made of black cherry (except it is wine). I had done MLF on this one, but I don't think it finished yeat and it will need to go until spring before I can finish it. Added 3 oz French Med Toast Oak


Next up was the Leon Millot. Normally this is a fairly one dimensional wine, but the Batch One (20 gallons total) is very nice. Body is better than normal, Cherry flavors abound and it actually has some tannins in it. Color is great. I am drinking a left over glass right now and enjoying it immensly.
Added 3 oz French Med Toast Oak to this one.


Buffalo wine is nice and spicy and has a light red color to it-very clear. The smells are great and the spiciness is wondrful. I'm thinking this one might be really nice as a dessert wine so it will need sweetening a lot, but the grape is fairly low acid. Not a problem. I tried a touch of Catawba mixed with it and that adds another dimension of spice to it. After it has aged, I will mix the 5 gallons of Buffalo with 2 quarts of Catawba for acid balance and then sweeten to about 1.020. I think this one will be popular. No Oak.


I racked the Catawba from a 5 gallon carboy to free up for the Buffalo and added an extra gallon of it I had to a 6 gallon Carboy. Nice flavors, with plenty of acid to sweeten later. The one I did was straw colored Jobe commented on getting, but the rest of the carboys are a light pink. It has been cold enough lately that 1/2 cup of acid has precipitated out of the 5 gallons already.


A person could get fond of this job after a while. I may need a helper some day with the tastings. Who's up to the job?


----------



## jobe05

appleman said:


> A person could get fond of this job after a while. I may need a helper some day with the tastings. Who's up to the job?



Well if your going to be that darned forceful, I guess I would have to..............


----------



## AlFulchino

only 3 ox of med french toast oak to the 20 gallon bathc of leon millot?


----------



## grapeman

I added it at the rate of 3 oz per 6 gallon carboy for the 20 gallons, so it was 3.5 bags. I found last year I had more oak than I was happy with. It is easier to add it as needed until you get to where you want to be. No way to take it back out and you end up having to mix with unoaked to reduce the oak. These are fruity reds and I feel they need to stand on their own while being slightly enhanced.


----------



## AlFulchino

gotchya!....just curious about your approach! Merry Christmas!


----------



## grapeman

Like the rest of the northern US, we will be entering the deep freeze for the next foreseeable future. I'm hoping we don't get so bad as to have a lot of bud damage, but this should be more of a true test to see what will survive here long term. Highs will be about 3-4 degrees and down to about -15F. I hope it doesn't go below that but time will tell.


----------



## AlFulchino

good luck my italian friend!


what are your most susceptible varieties? mine would probably be the landot noir


----------



## grapeman

That would be the Cab Franc and probably the Chardonel. If it only gets to -15 they should be OK. Time will tell. Is it cooling down there yet? If not hang on a few hours!


----------



## AlFulchino

our cool down come later tonite...we will be just a few degrees warmer than you, not much


----------



## grapeman

Well the true test for survivability and fruiting is existing right now. I should have a much better idea what varieties are truly suited for my location. Yesterday was cold with a high of 0 with windchills running -15 to -20 F. By 5:00 last evening the temp was sitting at -10F. This morning there is no wind but the actual air temperature is -18F on one thremometer and -20F on the other. Tonight is expecting a bit colder.


Several of the varieties are only good to about -15F so we will see how it goes. It hasn't gotten this cold in 8-10 years now.


----------



## gaudet

appleman said:


> Well the true test for survivability and fruiting is existing right now. I should have a much better idea what varieties are truly suited for my location. Yesterday was cold with a high of 0 with windchills running -15 to -20 F. By 5:00 last evening the temp was sitting at -10F. This morning there is no wind but the actual air temperature is -18F on one thremometer and -20F on the other. Tonight is expecting a bit colder.
> 
> 
> Several of the varieties are only good to about -15F so we will see how it goes. It hasn't gotten this cold in 8-10 years now.



Geez and I'm complaining of the temp being 36 degrees out here (it might be a little cooler than that say maybe 32-33 ish)

Has anyone seen my sunscreen


----------



## Jack on Rainy

appleman,
Do you have snow cover right now? That might help. We are thankful for a couple of feet with the current low temps(-42twice this week so far adn highs below -10F). Helps protect everything.


----------



## grapeman

Yeah we have about 16-20 inches right now. We are in our dry slot right now. The storms track to our south for about a month before they return up here in February. Those last about a month and a half and then it eventually warms up and melts.


----------



## grapeman

Continuing to record some temps for the vineyard today for future reference.


The temperature dropped to -20F last evening and continued to drop overnight to -22.4F on the side of the office-probably a bit colder in the open but the transmitters don't work on the other one when it gets that cold. Bydawn it has warmed back up to -12F here, still at -22 in Plattsburgh. They set a record there at -24F this AM-just a few miles away. Spots in Vermont and NH were about -40F.


I look forward to this spring when I will be able to assess the bud damage to the different grape varieties. I have alwys believed in averages, not what is conceived as "normal". Averages are more accurate since they are a continuing calculation. You will always have highs and lows. I think the polar caps may be making a recovery this year!


----------



## gaudet

Recovery??? Sounds more like relocation my friend. Keep warm up there.


----------



## AlFulchino

we hit 12 below by one report .....i expect i am close to damage on landot noir..and leon millot both of these are hardy to 15 below..i am in a valley so might have cordon damage...tonite is supposed to be colder






buona fortuna


----------



## NorthernWinos

Warming up on de-tundra...a balmy -14°F this morning...
Suppose to keep warming up, tho a bit a snow tonight.

Will be interesting to see what the Frontenac do here....The older vine is hanging on the wire and this year will be it's true test of production....Last year it got to -27 right next to the window of the house. I did a radical pruning last year and set the vine out of sync...it had a few clusters and was blooming at freeze up.

The young plants will probably live....lots of snow, but the tips might die back. Will be good to see if they can make it or not...then replace with something that will quit taking up space and actually produce.

As for the more tender vines that grow on panels...get laid down and covered with straw...They never really produce that well and am questioning their worth.

So it goes in the frozen north.


----------



## grapeman

I just got back in from going out to check on the winery. I guess I should have turned off the water to it before this cold spell. I was out there 2 days ago and everything was fine with a temp on the wall of 42F. Good for cold stabilizing. Don't know if the cold air shrunk the window sash or what, but the top part of one had dropped down an inch or so- open directly to -20F weather for two days! Temp is sitting at 28F and I have a half inch of ice in the soaking tub full of water! I turned on a heat lamp and shut the window! Hopefully I don't get any geisers! I will need to check a bit later as the temp hopefully raises above freezing. Funny but the water/k-meta solution in the airlocks isn't frozen at all! I may need to buy some vodka! I guess I know what I will be doing tomorrow. 




Update 12:45: temp up to 33 degrees F in the winery. I will leave the lamp on a few more hours. I went and got Vodka for the airlocks and will add to them tomorrow when I have a few minutes. 45-50 airlocks takes a while to change over.


----------



## grapeman

Another overnight low of -22.4F. The temp is up to 13.3 right now, but the wind is blowing about 15mph so it is still cold. We even had a dusting of snow overnight.


I changed the airlocks over to vodka this AM, so even if it goes below freezing, they will be OK down to about 20 degrees or so.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Your wines are for sure getting cold stabilized aren't they????

That's plenty cold for you guys isn't it???

The cold Arctic/Siberian air stayed around here too long...thought there would never be any relief.

You should warm up soon....We are above zero now...steady temps and light blowing snow....

So it goes on de-frozen North.


----------



## grapeman

Yes it is plenty cold for us. We haven't seen temps like this in about 12-15 years. When I was young we would see at least -25F every year and often -30F. Temps have a way of evening out!


My wine should we well stabilized!


----------



## Wade E

Good thing you took a peak in there Rich or you might have had some winesickles!




Anyone ever had Chardonnel on a stick?


----------



## NorthernWinos

Glad your not trying to ferment out there either at this time....
Would be tough on the yeast.


----------



## grapeman

wade said:


> Good thing you took a peak in there Rich or you might have had some winesickles!
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone ever had Chardonnel on a stick?




I routinely check things out every day or two so if something happens, I know about it. I like the Chardonel on a stick idea! I will have to try it some day.


I bought a bottle of Traminette yesterday to try. I had planted some two years ago and wanted an idea of what to expect. I really wanted a Goose Watch Traminette-dry, but they were out so I settled for a 5% Bully Hill Traminette. I prefer any of my whites over that one- too sweet, yet too tart at the back of the tongue. The flavor is OK, but I think (actually I know) I could make a better one. Problem is now I expect no crop on them this coming year- oh well.........


----------



## Wade E

Because of this weather we are getting this winter?


----------



## grapeman

You got it Wade. These temps will likely freeze most of the primary buds where 75% of the flowers form. Some secondaries will be OK, but even some of them will freeze. The more hardy a vine is, the higher amount of primary buds survive.


When you farm you learn to roll with the punches. Assess the damage and move on from there. As long as the trunks don't split, they grow back OK, you just lose most of the crop that year.It generally happens most places at least one in ten years. The trick is to learn whatdoes well those 9 good years and just hope they survive that one bad year and believe me this is it!


----------



## Wade E

How much did you get of them last year?


----------



## farmer

Any time youdealwith Mother Nature you live with her terms and appreciate the good and the bad that comes along.


I guess that's what makes it fun or at least interesting.


----------



## grapeman

Off the Traminette I got about a half dozen grapes! There were a few cluster I had left to sample, but the turkeys told me when they were ready. I tried a couple grapes one day and said- those are close. The next day I went to let someone sample a berry, and they were all gone! 


I am keeping my fingers crossed on them. They are supposed to be pretty hardy and they had hardened really well before heavy freezes. I left several canes to train possibly as a fan shape, so there are a lot of buds below the snow- which will be fine. I had even taken some of the canes off the wire and laid on the ground before the snow. I just don't want to count on them and be dissapointed, but if they have a good crop I will be elated.


----------



## grapeman

Over the weekend I took some preliminary cuttings to check for bud injury. I took the cuttings from one of the most tender varieties I grow- Chardonel. I would expect similar results from the Cab Franc. Remember this is a home vineyard at this point and I am trying to see which varieties I like and which of those survive well here in the long term. 


I like the Chardonel a lot and will give it all the chances I can, but at this point I probably won't expand its numbers in the future. I only checked buds at the cordon height, taking 5 canes for sampling. Those numbers aren't high enough for a true test, but give me a bit of an idea of what to expect towards spring for pruning. At this point I expect total loss of the cordons on the Chardonel and possible trunk injury. This is based on the low temperature of -22.4F we experiencedwith 100% bud kill on the tested canes. I won't yank them out at this point because this may be a one time low and the vines are well established now. Time will tell how bad the damage is. I have other fairly tender varieties and will likely spend a whole day in March doing test cuttings and bud evaluation.


Here is some information on how to check the canes for damage.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/goffinet/AnatomyWinterInjury.pdf




Here are a couple pitures showing how to make the bud cuts
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/faculty/pool/budcoldinjury/Assessingbudcoldinjury.html




You guys in the south and California have a definite advantage in protection from winter time lows, but we don't get hit as bad with other things.


----------



## OilnH2O

Hmmm... I think I'll be a little more concerned now, noting it is -8* out there this morning. We've had only one 5-day period in mid-December of below zero temperatures. And, today -- but this is not supposed to last (in the 20's and snow tomorrow). I was concerned about the lack of snow on the ground for most of this winter (we have about 3 inches right now, and only about 8" at any one time) but wasn't thinking of the buds.... Thanks for the heads up, Rich!


----------



## AlFulchino

so ...regarding the 100% kill number that you saw on the examined chardonel cordons.......did you ascertain that the secondary and tertiary buds also were at 100% kill?

what is that vine rated to take?


----------



## OilnH2O

Interesting links, although I could not get anything from the first one (the anotomy winter injury link). Rich, I am continually amazed at how much you teach us! Thank you.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Will be interesting to see how your vines survive.

We are back in the deep-freeze the past 3 nights...-25°F [-31°C]...

I looked at our MIN-MAX on the thermometer...Guess we got to our coldest -36.2°F on Jan 13th [the day we drove to Winnipeg in -38 temps] 

I am concerned about the Frontenac grapes... hanging on the wires....-30°F seems to be their range....We have one older vine that got a good pruning last year and expected a good crop this year...Time will tell. That plant and the young row of Frontenac will be replaced if the old vine doesn't start to show some production...Just living isn't enough...we want grapes.

As for the row of Edelweiss and Swenson Red [-30°F] plants...they grow on a panel and get laid down each winter and covered with straw...they never really give a bountiful crop...Maybe this year...?

I am wondering if you grow Sabrevois [-40°]??? That seems like a pretty hardy grape that might be worthy of trying up here on the frozen Northern plains.


----------



## grapeman

OilnH2O said:


> Interesting links, although I could not get anything from the first one (the anotomy winter injury link). Rich, I am continually amazed at how much you teach us! Thank you.




Try it now Dave, I was wondering where that stray f came from- the end of the .pdf file!


----------



## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> so ...regarding the 100% kill number that you saw on the examined chardonel cordons.......did you ascertain that the secondary and tertiary buds also were at 100% kill?
> 
> what is that vine rated to take?




All three buds were pretty dead looking. I had to cut them back to the main wood to get green. Doesn't look good. Chardeonel should take it down to about -15 to -17F. I was 5 degrees lower than that more than once.


----------



## grapeman

Northern Winos said:


> Will be interesting to see how your vines survive.
> 
> We are back in the deep-freeze the past 3 nights...-25°F [-31°C]...
> 
> I looked at our MIN-MAX on the thermometer...Guess we got to our coldest -36.2°F on Jan 13th [the day we drove to Winnipeg in -38 temps]
> 
> I am concerned about the Frontenac grapes... hanging on the wires....-30°F seems to be their range....We have one older vine that got a good pruning last year and expected a good crop this year...Time will tell. That plant and the young row of Frontenac will be replaced if the old vine doesn't start to show some production...Just living isn't enough...we want grapes.
> 
> As for the row of Edelweiss and Swenson Red [-30°F] plants...they grow on a panel and get laid down each winter and covered with straw...they never really give a bountiful crop...Maybe this year...?
> 
> I am wondering if you grow Sabrevois [-40°]??? That seems like a pretty hardy grape that might be worthy of trying up here on the frozen Northern plains.




Sabrevois does very well here. I have 25 of them 2 years old going to start their third year here at my place. They have been doing very well at Willsboro. I made some very nice wine with it 2 years ago from Willsboro grapes.


It grows well here and is grown quite extensively north of the border in Quebec near Montreal and Eastern Townships. That is actually where it got it's name from- a village in Quebec. It has some foxiness, but no where near as much as Valiant or Beta. Give it a try. 


See if you can get some Mn 1200 vines from U Minn. It hasn't been released yet, but experiences zero bud kill down into the -40F range. Very Hardy. It is a sister seedling to Mn1211 better known as Marquette. Even if a few flower buds were damaged, this year we had up to 7 clusters per cane on them! They do need some thinning if they all set!!!!!


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich...just a question here...did you take your samples in for 24-48 hours before slicing open?


----------



## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> Rich...just a question here...did you take your samples in for 24-48 hours before slicing open?




I din't bother bringing them in Al. It was thawing on Saturday when I took them. I had figured if the buds were green, I would let them sit for 24-48 hours to let the buds dessicate and brown if they were going to. Since the buds were dead anyways, I didn't bother.


----------



## OilnH2O

The link is now working, Rich. This is a great article and both reminded me of why I did not major in biology and of long suppressed cellular terminology! But, there is much to glean from the detail. Just one example:
<blockquote>In Eastern Washington, where there may be snow coupled with high light intensity, the trunk can easily warm above freezing, both by direct sun and by reflection off the snow. This “black body” effect of trunk warming in winter can de-acclimate tissues, so that sub-freezing nights or sudden cold spells can freeze-injure those tissues.
</blockquote>I think we know (or learn from bad experience) that a mid-winter thaw followed by more sub-zero temperatures is harmful. But I hadn't thought about slope, aspect, exposure and reflection and the fact that they could raise the "black body" of trunks to above freezing even in sub-freezing air temperatures.

This certainly won't keep me from losing sleep at night (after all, living where Heaven is just a local call has its advantages!



) but it will better explain what happens after a "mild" winter or why sometimes a "cold" winter isn't as damaging as it first might appear. I had worried that the sun angle in winter shaded my "vinyard" for more of the day on those sunny winter days. Now, maybe that isn't so "bad" after all. It's just one more variable in the mix! 

Again, thanks.


----------



## Jack on Rainy

Appleman,
I have been following this topic since you posted it almost 2 yrs ago-very interesting and informative. Thanks!


----------



## Jeff D

It looks like I have a lot of reading to do if I'm to catch up on this . Appleman some of the vineyards in Grand Junction have there trunks painted white. This must be the reason?


----------



## grapeman

That is right Jeff. The white paint reflects the sun and keeps the trunks colder. It is done around here a lot with the major crop- apples.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Years ago I lost most of my [very/extremely hardy] Valiant and Beta vines...Thought they could live through anything...but, they didn't survive their big trunks splitting from warm/cold spells that come here in March. Most of them regrew from the roots.

Now I keep a young replacement vine growing from the base of the plant....
Will replace the old vine every few years.

I paint all our fruit trees, still get a little splitting when the paint wears off...even the larger branches have split. Thought that once the bark got rough they wouldn't need paint.

A few years ago some of the trees had really bad gashes split into them...



Broke my heart.... I saw that the ants were attracted to that gash...and figured the birds would be around soon...

Had nothing to loose at this point and wanted to try to save the trees...Took a big tub of Livestock Vaseline type product and filled in all their splits with gobs of it...it kept the bugs and birds out and the trees are still living...The Vaseline melts and runs a bit in the summer and looks really funky...but, it saved the trees at least for now....The trees are now 10 years old.


----------



## AlFulchino

this also happens a lot on ornamentals in everyone's landscape as well...flowering cherries get hit a lot...even some maples that are at the age when their bark is young

aside from painting you can do a wrap....this is labor intensive but it means no unsightly painting of trees in the homeowners landscape


----------



## Jeff D

Al, I have some questions, don't want to hi jack the thread. Looked at your web site. How long until you start selling your products? Is the Amarone made frome grapes you grow?I need some!!


Jeff


----------



## NorthernWinos

Al Fulchino said:


> this also happens a lot on ornamentals in everyone's landscape as well...flowering cherries get hit a lot...even some maples that are at the age when their bark is young
> 
> 
> 
> aside from painting you can do a wrap....this is labor intensive but it means no unsightly painting of trees in the homeowners landscape



Last year we had a young Weeping willow split...I filled the crack with that Vaseline stuff too...It kept the ants out.


----------



## OilnH2O

I knew it... an inch of snow last night, and temperatures warmed up. It's 17* now at 7am and high today is to be 30* Just my luck... it'll probably get there! NOW I'm concerned that the sun will come out and warm things up! (wring hands)

See... "TMI" and now I'm worried! 

(Just kidding!



)


----------



## grapeman

WOW a whole inch of snow. You guys are getting pounded there this winter! We haven't gotten a whole lot of snow in January- just cold. That is typical for us here, just a bit colder than normal. 


It is starting to snow heavily out now................. We are in for 12-20 inches of snow this afternoon and evening- YUCK. At least there is only 12-16 inches on the ground from previous snows. This may set us up for an early spring. We typically aren't on the retreating Jet Stream quite this early. It is usually February before the Jet Stream moves north again and we get the heavier snows.


----------



## NorthernWinos

After a few nights in the -25°F range we have warmed up....Warming up lately means it's above 0°....we haven't had a thaw around here since Nov....This has been a very brutal winter....will be interested to see what survives...We do have a healthy snow cover.

Today, being above 0°F.... it is snowing...and blowing. Won't be anything like hit all you folks to the South and now in the East....
At least you get above freezing temps and it takes down your ice and snow within a few days....Good luck...


----------



## OilnH2O

Yeah, a "whole inch!"





I know you're getting snow -- I've got to go to Buffalo next week (home office for a company for which I consult) and I'm sure THEY will have the snow!

I don't think we're getting "hammered" though -- the last "real" winter was '96 and it's been mild, for Montana, winters here ever since. Summer's coming though -- my son drove to school about 7:20 this morning and it was getting light, so days are getting longer....


----------



## OilnH2O

I forgot to add, NW, as I said earlier, we're on the western edge of your _whole_ winter! I _almost_ feel guilty because what winter we have had is only the western edge of those cold Alberta/Saskatch/Manitob "clippers" that are all part of the same airmass!





(..."almost" though



)


----------



## NorthernWinos

We've had an old fashioned winter the old folks talk about....One to remember...Been hard on the wood supply, we do have a couple or three dead oaks in the yard should hard times set in.

Jim had a guy plow a road out to the fish house today. Took 3½ hours, really tough going...Lots of snow out there....The guy said he won't come back. Jim didn't go to the house with our pickup, he said he'd have to drive 100 feet through water 1 foot deep that was under the snow in a spot....He's hoping it will freeze now that it is exposed to the air....Good ice underneath. 3 more weeks of fishing....

On the plus side...YES...the days are noticeably longer...This is always a good thing...Don't feel guilty about having good weather....we all get our turn....Maybe.


----------



## dragonmaster42

So there's water under the snow thats over the ice that's over the water?




Sorry, cold medicine is kicking in..... ha 


Just curious, since I've never been ice fishing or up in your neck of the woods, how do you know when the ice is too thin to go out onto to fish?


----------



## NorthernWinos

The frozen lake has flooded in places from the weight of the snow...There is always cracks in the ice and the water seeps up when the weight pushes down.

The snow is deeper in places....People drive and make roads, plowed roads leave ridges of snow...The snow drifts from the winds and is deeper there and makes for more weight.

The water under the snow is insulated from the cold...
Guess that sounds kind of odd...

This year the guys walked out and fished when the ice was about 6 inches...I didn't go out till it was 8 inches or so.
We drive out once the ice is 12 to 15 inches thick...providing it is 'good ice'.
'Good ice'.... is ice that froze without any snow...it is harder and stronger.

The first time you drive out on a frozen lake it does give you a creepy feeling.

Actually ice fishing and spearing is probably a weird sport... But, it would be long winters without it.


----------



## OilnH2O

Dragonmaster, here's how you know if the ice is too thin


----------



## grapeman

I think we lucked out here again with this latest storm. We came in with the lesser amount of the predictions with about 10-12 inches of snow here. The wind has been blowing quite a bit so there is some drifting going on. My truck looked almost like that this AM OilnH20 only it was parked on land not under water - and the top of the cab was covered also



I'm running out of places to push the snow when plowing. I may need to get a loader i to pile the snow higher.


I'm looking forward to the coming week in a couple days. Highs are up into the 30's and lows in the teens and 20's. Heat Wave!!!!!!


----------



## gaudet

OilnH2O said:


> Dragonmaster, here's how you know if the ice is too thin



Just a subtle hint eh????


----------



## dragonmaster42

NW - Interesting. That makes sense with the snow insulating. I know when we've gotten ice with snow following it always takes longer for everything to thaw out. Never was crazy about cold weather, but catching some of the fishyou've had pictures of looks like fun!


We lucked out too,with the storm that went through the day before. The upper half of the state got anywhere from 2-3 inches or more of ice. Just had a few icy spots in the roads in the lower half where I am. 




OilnH20 - LOL!! Yep, I'd say that ice is too thin! Hate to explain that one to the insurance agent.... 


BTW Appleman, I noticed your location has changed to Italy.On vacation?


----------



## grapeman

We had an overnight low as a record high for the date if that makes sense



. It got to 44 and then got colder this morning. 


Since the buds had thawed overnight I just went out on a damage assessment survey. Things at this point are pretty much as expected with our coldest temperature of -22.4 degrees F this year. You would expect USDA Zone 4 vines to be OK, but Zone 5 or higher should show a lot of damage. That is exactly what I found. Zone 3 and Zone 4 vines are fine with most of the buds green inside after checking with a razor on a number of canes.


Zone 5 and 6 vines only show live buds very close to the ground where they were covered with snow. All buds above 24 inches above the ground are dried out and brown. Some tertiary buds may grow. Since this was a rare occurance this year and may not happen again, I need to decide if I want to regrow the vines for bearing next year or replace them with more cold hardy vines. Right now I am leaning towards keeping them, but I won't increase their numbers. 


This is very valuable information to get at this point since I am preparing to plant a number of acres of vines soon. I want to be sure that the vines I increase are sturdy enough to stand our coldest winters here and ripen fruit well. These cold hardy vines will form the base of my larger vineyard. As I find varieties I like that will handle the cold, I can increase those later as desired.


What are you guys seeing out there?


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, I was in Buffalo on the 5th and 6th and folks laughed about how it was colder there (got to -6 overnight) than when I left Montana! I thought of you and was glad to get back here to the lows in the +20's and highs in the mid 30's -- but I worry now (see, too much information!) about the freeze/thaw cycle. Even if I lose all 25 of the PN vines from last year, it is/will be interesting to see just what does make it. I look forward to seeing what those different zone plants do, so, thanks for keeping us all in the loop. (Wear your mittens...)


----------



## grapeman

And next year you will be -25 degrees Fin Montana and we will be at the temps you have this year



Or at least I hope we are warmer!


What on earth were you doing in Buffalo this time time of year?


----------



## OilnH2O

Working on a consultant contract with a firm there - in and out - but saw the Sabres beat the Maple Leafs, and that was fun.


----------



## grapeman

The weather has warmed up some here and begun to melt the snow. It has been in the 50's three days in a row now. It melted down pretty good so I went out yesterday for a while and began pruning some more. I worked in Frontenac pruning for VSP. I figured I could do the Frontenac since there isn't any bud damage with them. They prune quickly and look good when done. It was nice again today, but it was pretty sloppy out in it so I didn't prune.


I finished getting my wines together for the WineMaker Magazine competition. I just had to enter my Mosti Mondiale Renaissance Amarone wine. The rest of the wines are mostly from 2007. I am entering them as varietals since I kept all of them at least 75% the main variety.


Whites-


1. Adalmiina (ES 6-16-30) - includes 25% LaCrescent -2007
2. Petite Amie - 15% LaCrescent - 2007
3. LaCrescent - 100% - 2007
4. St. Pepin - 10% LaCrescent , 15% Adalmiina - 2007
5. Chardonel - 100% Chardonel - 2008 - bone dry brimming with apples,pears and citrus. Just a touch of Seval character.


Reds


1. Sabrevois - 100% Sabrevois 2007 - oaked
2. Leon Millot - 100% Leon Millot 2007 -oaked


2007 Mosti Mondiale Renaissance Amarone - special tweak


So there you have it for my entries to this year's competition. Now a couple months until they announce the winners and more importantly give some evaluation notes!


----------



## NorthernWinos

proud of your accomplishments already...
Winning would just be the icing on the cake..


----------



## Wade E

Looking good buddy, now why is that cape blowing around, did you eat beans again?


----------



## mjdtexan

Ok, I am only on page 18 of this thread right now. You must be having a blast with all of those vines and apple trees not to mention the tomatos and peppers. I saw where you rented an auger earlier and I said to myself, "he does nothave a tractor, I wander why?". Then on page 18 I see you havea tractor. You, my friend, need a 3 point auger. I really would like to do two rows of 10 vines in each row just to see if I have it in me. I dont even know ifin one could grow grapes in my neck of the woods. I am off to try and finish reading the rest of this thread now that NASCAR is over for the day. Sure would like to eat one of dem dere apples.


----------



## Waldo

Nice selection for the competition appleman. How are you shipping yours?


----------



## grapeman

I got an e-mail today that was pleasantly received. Last November I prepared a grant proposal for studying improving quality of cold hardy wine grapes through training systems and canopy management. The idea is to study the feasability of this improvement to see if the quality of the harvested grapes can be improved to increase the quality and thus the value of the wine made from these grapes. I was hoping this could get some funding through the SARE Grant system for Sustainable Agriculture. 
My project was one of 23 out of 77 approved for funding. WooHooo!







This will help me with expenses to gather this valuable information for others. I love compiling the data collected from my research. I will be performing this work in my vineyard at my home, gathering harvest weights and other pertinent data as well as recording growth stages, etc during the growing season. I don't want to bore anyone too much with the details, but as I gather this information I will share with others here- probably in a new post.


----------



## Wade E

Good for you Rich, what does the grant provide you?


----------



## grapeman

Wade it provides funding for my labor, consultants, and hosting field seminars to promote the results. That's simplified, but the details are to follow sometime.


----------



## Wade E

Thats very cool Rich!


----------



## AlFulchino

fantastic!


----------



## ASAI

Is that what they mean by "Shovel Ready" economic incentives?


----------



## gaudet

Great Appleman, 

Very nice indeed.............................

Getting paid to do something you might do for free..........


----------



## Jack on Rainy

Appleman,
Congrats! And please do post your research. It sounds like a wonderfully interesting project.


----------



## farmer

Hosting field seminars!! 


Sign me up for the bus!!


----------



## BonnieJoy

Conrats, Appleman. We have a celeb in our midst!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Can't wait to read your research.


----------



## rrawhide

To our *wise* and *wonderful* APPLEMAN
Happy Grant $$$$$$$ 2U
Happy Grant $$$$$$$ 2U
Happy Grant $$$$$$$ 2UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


Happy Grant $$$$$$$ 2U 
and many many many more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm sure we all will become wiser because of the 'wise one'.


Thanx Appleman and good luck on your project!!


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

In case anybody is interested in seeing some of the wines from last fall, here are some of them. I can't show them all........................ 




Here is a shot of some of the whites. Most of them are very clear, but the LaCrosse has a bit of haze to it. The pictures aren't all really clear because the lighting is terrible in there. Anyways here they are.
















This is the Chardonel












Here is looking through one at the label on the one behind it. The upper one is through a 6 gallon carboy.












Here is St. Pepin- the upper label is behind the front carboy
















Here are a few reds. Lots more where these came from.....








It is starting to warm up enough some days now that I noticed a couple carboys that hadn't finished MLF yet are starting to get the tiny bubbles again. Grab a straw and sample a bit through your modems!


----------



## dragonmaster42

Dang it!! Must need a new computer. My straw won't fit into any of the ports!!!


----------



## AlFulchino

looks great Rich..i am attempting to count the gallonage right now


----------



## mjdtexan

Al Fulchino said:


> looks great Rich..i am attempting to count the gallonage right now




Its for sure over a hundred. I cant tell ifin those are 5 or 6 gallon carboys. I do see two 3 gallon carboys.


----------



## grapeman

I am only showing wine for the sake of showing it to you. No bragging, no counting, no tasting. I will say since there is two or more adults in the household,that I am able to make 200 gallons of wine in NYS. I will say that it is all made from my own grapes, something I take great pride in. Some wines are good, some wines are great and some wines are just plain, less than great, but they are all mine. I am housing a few carboys of wine that belong to my sister and a nephew. They like Catawba and he gave me a few carboys, so I filled them up with juice and they let them turn into Catawba fermented juice!


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

They all look great Grapeman, would love to sample some of those whites, you've done great with the vinyard!


----------



## grapeman

Thanks JW. Some day in the future, you may get a visit from the "Men (and women) in Brown". Of course you are always welcome to come on over and share some with me!


----------



## farmer

The white wineslook like sunshine in a bottle and I bet the reds taste just as good.


Nice job!!


----------



## grapeman

Finally some pruning weather has made it up here. It isn't great, but then I don't want it to push things too quickly. I've pruned a few times now and gotten quite a bit done. I am pruning a bit differently this year on a few varieties. They will become part of my grant project. Last year I still had almost two feet of snow in the vines at this time. It is down to the soil most places with six inch deep mounds between the rows. It must be where it drifted a bit deeper. I came in a bit earlier this evening since it started raining again. Still, it's better than snow!






I will put a picture in here tomorrow of this year, but here is one from last year about the same date:


----------



## Wade E

I thought that was all from this year as I always look at the pic first and I was man when did you get all this stuff!


----------



## grapeman

LOL, that's why I started leaving the date on the pictures! It is a lot drier this year. We have only had about 80 inches of snow this year as opposed to 130 inches last year. The snow is gone in the fields out in the open, but then again it is almost April now!


----------



## AlFulchino

either that snow was frozen solid so that you could walk on it and not sink thru...or you pruned whilst riding a magic carpet


----------



## grapeman

Last year it was frozen solid- you stayed right on top. I took advantage of a bit warmer weather in the sun that day and did what I could. We had a lot of bleeding last year at pruning. I am happy to start sooner this year. The vines are healing up much better I noticed this evening.


----------



## farmer

What type of taper are you using to tye up your vines ? I am in need of something for tying and have been looking at the Max Tapener - HTB or HTB2.





Any other suggestions?


----------



## grapeman

I use the Max Tapener. I have had it for about 15 years now and it still works so I continue to use it.


----------



## farmer

Just ordered a Max Tapener. It should last me a life time. 

Thanks


----------



## grapeman

The weather sure is miserable lately. It has been hard to get a lot of pruning done with all the bad weather. Friday night and Saturday it rained almost 2 inches so I didn't prune. Today it snowed mixed with rain and the wind has been blowing 20-30 MPH- in general it sucks! I did prune a part of a row this afternoon until my toes and fingers hurt from the cold. I only have about 300 more to prune. Then on April 18 th we will prune at Willsboro. That should go fairly quickly I hope since we have helpers to do that.


I have about a month to get all my vines pruned and prepare two acres of ground for planting this years vines. I will put in almost 1500 of them if things go well. Time will tell.....


How is everyone elses progress going getting their vines pruned?


----------



## NorthernWinos

I've been thinking about it....


----------



## grapeman

Now I know it is too dang cold there for you to be out pruning! Hope spring gets there soon and you and Jim are up to tending the garden and crops for the year! Good luck and good wishes!


----------



## farmer

I was going to get at that job this weekend , it was muddy yesterday and we got 2 inches of snow last night and almost 50 today so it is really soft out there now.


----------



## NorthernWinos

appleman said:


> Now I know it is too dang cold there for you to be out pruning! Hope spring gets there soon and you and Jim are up to tending the garden and crops for the year! Good luck and good wishes!



It kind of gets above thawing/freezing everyday, the sun is nice and warm now that it made it's return...Today we have a pretty stiff north wind....

I want to prune early as last year the tips of the vines were dripping from a brutal/late pruning.

Hoping that I can get to it before too long....Not much snow left out there and with many of the rows mulched mud shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for the well wishes.


----------



## AlFulchino

1/3 done...was planning/hoping on doing a third this week...but our weather is just as bad


----------



## AlFulchino

hey Rich....what are you doing...if anything...for a post prune pre bud swell spray?


----------



## grapeman

I need to make that decision soon Al. I still need to finish pruning. I have been just a bit busy lately. I have been working non-stop with house plans for spring building. Then I spent the last two days until dark pruning vines at Willsboro. Friday was 65 and sunny all day. Yesterday was windy and raw with showers on and off all day. I still have just a bit of them to do- special cases. We are shifting the focus of the trial planting over to canopy management so we converted the vines from Umbrella Kniffen to a Top Wire Cordon with canes (long spurs). It was a lot of work.


Today I pruned what I could while supervising some land clearing. I took out the planting of apples at home near the vineyard. They have been going downhill for a few years now and were costing more than their worth. The guy got the trees out so I cleaned it up a bit and plowed and harrowed the strip. He will finish up tomorrow and I can get the rest of it taken care of. I sprayed Roundup on an acre plus Thursday evening in anticipation of plowing and harrowing before planting that parcel to vines. There will be about 650 vines in that piece. 


So you can see- a typical spring while farming(only thing is it is a hobby for me now).


Al what did you have in mind for spraying?


----------



## AlFulchino

yep you sound busy


i was just wondering what you and the Cornel crew do regarding post prune, and pre but swell applications...ie stylet oil, dithane, elite, pristine etc


also, i have been searching my files for that bird netting i told you about last year and cannot find my notes...but i recall thinking that you bought a roll or two to try out....can you refresh my memory on what the name of thst stuff was...i would appreciate that....did you try it last year? what did you think if so?


----------



## grapeman

I don't remember what brand that was Al. I will try to remember to check as time permits. I recall what you are talking about, just not the particulars- at least I know you have CRS also and a bit younger!


The Willsboro vineyard is on a farm that emphasises organic- so we don't spray when not necessary. Like I said before, if we don't have a disease present, we don't spray. You could probably do a stylet oil if you want and then adjust to needs as the season unfolds.


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich, what do the Cornel boys use in their organic repertiore?


----------



## grapeman

It's not that simple Al. The vineyard is in no way shape or form organic. WE DO NOT HAVE A SET ROUTINE- DO NOT TRY TO FOLLOW IT! The rest of the farm(Several hundred acres total) does a variety of research trials, from hay to corn to wheat and so on. Those are the areas that use as much organic as possible. The trials vary every few years depending on what research worker is doing.


In the vineyard we spray minimally with the rest of the farm in mind. We are on the eastern side of the farm. I am not allowed to give recommendations for spraying. If you want a guideline you would need to refer to the NY / Pennsylvania IPM Guide for general recommendations. Not trying to be vague- just policy.


----------



## AlFulchino

Hi...i do use the ipm guidelines...i was just wondering about the sprays that they use on their vines during dormancy leading up to bud swell and bud break


----------



## grapeman

Al I can't speak for all the vines in the Cornell system, but at Willsboro we use no spray before budbreak. Because the farm uses as little spray as necessary, that's the way I treat the vines. I use no spray unless there is a need for it. I wish I had a better answer for you to spray X at such a time and Y at the next and then Z, but we use a minimalist regime. At the experiment station many of the grapes are grown with zero spray because they are developing resistant varieties. 


I can say thet the first spray I use for a fungicide has been Dithane, however at a chemical meeting I attended a month ago, they were saying that dithane is not available this year. There is still Manzate which is very similar. I normally start out with Manzateearly in the season. You need to observe a 66 day to harvest interval however so you stop using it a few weeks after bloom.


I wish I was more help............ As always follow the label for your state.


----------



## grapeman

Is anyone interested in seeing a few pictures of some newly cleared land before prepping for planting grapes on? We got some more of the brush and scrub trees taken off another half acre today. There are a few more trees to remove and a huge stump, but the ground is still frozen under them so it needs to wait a few more days.


I plowed where the apple trees were yesterday after their removal and harrowed the area. I went today and picked up the 6 foot York rake to level it better. I would like to get a box blade with ripping teeth to level the area we took the big trees out of. I would wait a couple years to prep the ground, but I know it is fertile enough and deep enough to level and plant this year. This is fun, but I will enjoy getting past this busy time so I have more time for the forum and other things.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Pictures!!! 
Pictures!!!!! 
Us want's Pictures!!!!!


----------



## Travisty

Pictures of planting would be awesome!


----------



## grapeman

As promised here are a couple pictures after I removed the old apple trees. Still needs cleaning up, leveling and plowing/harrowing some more.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Kind of sad to see the apple trees go, but know you have more apples around there than you can use.

I am always amazed at your soil, it looks like pure sand....Do you have to fertilize more to make up for it???

Your vines look nice..... 

Know the new soil will be planted to more vines and become productive once again....

Thanks for sharing....


----------



## grapeman

I can prune grape vines from the ground - and don't generally hurt myself






I will be putting in some trees to replace those taken out-probably next year. I will plant them on a trellis like grapes at a spacing of 4 feet x 9 feet- about twice as close as the grapes. By starting with a well feathered tree you can get about 200 bushels per acre in the second to third year and go up to around 500-1000 per acre. I have no desire for a lot of new trees. I have access to thousands of them if I want - just a few more for my use of a few new varieties.


The ground is sandy but transitions to a heavier clay content at the other end by the little payloader in the picture.


----------



## NorthernWinos

Sand and clay is good....then you too can make bricks....


----------



## rrawhide

hey hey hey and hi Apple


What is your spacing and how long are your rows?


How many rows do you have?


Acerage in this bloc?


thanx


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

This is just a little backyard vineyard.... or so it began. There are only 12 rows of grapes at that area. The vines are 7 feet by 9 feet and about 240 feet long. I am adding another 12 rows in that block. They will be 6x9 feet. I am planting another block in a different area. That will have 27 rows at 9 foot spacing with 24 vines @ 6 feet apart.


----------



## BonnieJoy

OMG - Thatputs you over 1500 vines!!!!!!!!! Whew. How do you do it????


It's looking really good. Can't wait to watch your project unfold. Please keep toe pictures coming.


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie it is a labor of <STRIKE>love</STRIKE> insanity. I do it one vine at a time. When I am done planting this year, there will be close to 2000 vines total - if I hold up that long. I will keep putting up pictures as long as there is an interest and I think I can help someone else out.


----------



## grapeman

Work continues on the land preparations. Over the weekend I got the apple tree area totally prepared now. I took down a huge pine that was creating a lot of shade and had to drop it into the apple tree area. The tree was 80 feet tall and about 30 inches at the butt. We got the logs out to use and skidded out the top. I then took the york rake and cleaned the loose pine needles and small branches. Next up will be marking rows and beginning planting. I also worked up the other acre plus field in preparation for planting. It is also ready to plant. The only area not ready yet is where we took out some shrubby pines (up to 2 feet across). I need to get two stumps dug out with a backhoe. The payloader just couldn't get them out.


I have some vines set to ship to me tomorrow from Double A Vineyards. Those are table grapes and some others I wanted to add to the vineyard.


The one bud cuttings so far are a dismal failure. The best luck I am having so far is from cuttings I took at Thanksgiving and stored in the garage in plastic containers right around freezing. I took them out a few weeks ago, put them in some perlite for a week or so on the heat mat. I then made 2-3 bud cuttings and put in my small 38-50 plug trays. The Marquettes are sprouting buds and some of them have roots big enough to pull the whole peat plug out when you lift the cutting.


After I plant the vines from Double A I will start digging the vines in the nursery and planting them. I plan to try an old potato digger to dig them out. I will let you all know haow that works later.


All for now!


----------



## Wade E

Looking good there Rich!


----------



## chiefmike

Looks great, Appleman. Wow...to get 80 feet of tree around here, I'd have to cut down 8 trees.


----------



## hannabarn

Rich, I look at your pictures with envy and then I get exhausted when I realize the hard work you are doing!! I know it is a labor of love or it wouldn't be successful!


----------



## grapeman

They are coming - or at least the first ones are!


My vines from Double A Vineyards are set to arrive today. There is only 159 of them - mostly 1-X vines (1 year extra large). These are some to round out my selection



. I am approaching 40 varieties......


I will get them in the ground as soon as I can and begin work digging and planting the rest of them out of the nursery.


I got roundup applied to the grasses and perennials in the existing vineyard. Yesterday was so nice I played hookey from work for a couple hours to get that done- before it got too hot. It got up to the mid 90's by late afternoon. High today of about 75 expected with low tonight mid 30's.


----------



## grapeman

In case anyone thinks I am removing all the trees like in the rainforest here is a couple shots showing there are still plenty around.












A picture of currants- a bit over 4 feet tall.






A few training methods
Umbrella kniffen for Catawbas






VSP Frontenac






An Ugly LaCrosse 4 Arm Kniffen





The ground is getting closer to planting here- this was apple trees a bit over a week ago.






And finally buds are sprouting on 2 bud cuttings I planted about 10 days ago.


----------



## dragonmaster42

You have quite a place there. How are those single bud cuttingsdoing?


----------



## grapeman

The single bud cuttins so far are a flop. There have only been a few buds that have sprouted and I have seen no root development yet. I would say maybe it was the variety, but the ones you see above that are budding and developing roots are Marquette also. These are two bud cuttings- one below and one above the soil line. I like these trays abovebecause they allow the soil to warm well quickly in the sun which in turn callouses well which in turn develop into roots. These trays hold 50 cuttings and later you can sort the ones that grew and the ones that didn't before moving on in the growing cycle either going to the nursery or you could even plant with a transplanter on a mulched bed. In the future I will probably grow them this way, make a slightly raised bed nine feet apart,and lay drip line under a two year decomposable mulch paper. That will allow for quicker first two years growth and control weeds without herbicides while they are small. I would then use our water wheel transplater which pierces the mulch every predetermined spacing and puts in a cup or so of water. You then take a plug and place it in the wetted hole (the two people planting ride on the machine). 


But I am getting ahead of myself here................ Youd didn't ask about all that


----------



## ASAI

Appleman/Grapeman, I appreciate your time and efforts in posting to this thread. Growing things is no longer a option for me. I feel like I can still enjoy the experience by following your pics and updates.


----------



## JimCook

Appleman, 


You're right - I can still see some trees in the distance where you've prepared for the expansion, but isn't that your neighbor's hill?














- Jim


----------



## grapeman

That's the neighboring tribes hill all right!


I think the humidity would be just a bit too high there for good grapes!


----------



## Wade E

Wow, that was trees a week ago, do you still work a day job?


----------



## grapeman

This field that was trees less than two weeks ago is now 3/4 planted with grapes. Here it is as a reminder.









I marked the field out today into 6 rows of vines that are 36 vines long. This is half of a planting I am putting in to study the effects of various training methods and canopy management on the quality of the juice from them and thus the quality of the wine. I am planting 4 varieties of grapes and put in the 6 rows x 9 vines each of Minnesota 1200 , St. Pepin and Petite Amie. I didn't plant the Marquette because they aren't delivered to me yet from Andy Farmer of Norhteast Vine Supply. Once the other chunk has a couple stumps dug out this coming week, I will till that new field and duplicate what I planted today. Then when the Marquette arrive, I will plant those in both fields. I took some pictures today but was too tired after 12 hours of planting to upload them today. 


Tomorrow I will hopefully begin planting the other field. I only got in 162 vines today because I had to mark the rows, auger the holes, dig up the vines from my nursery and finally plant them. I did have a slight reprieve since I had to purchase 40 Petite Amie from Double A Nurseries, because I only have 68 in my nursery of the Petite Amie out of the 108 needed (12 rows x 9 vines each). Tomorrow I will plant a mixture of purchased grape vines and ones I need to dig in the nursery.


----------



## OilnH2O

Yeah, Rich. I hear you. PHeww... (wipes brow) I'm tired just WATCHIN' you!


----------



## Waldo

What the heck did you use to get all the stumps and roots out of that field with appleman.


----------



## grapeman

We used a Payloader to push the apple trees out Waldo. It gets most of the roots out along with the stumps. There are still small roots left which worked up fairly well. Ideally you should till the field a couple years before planting to allow the trash and weeds to break down some. I'm impatient and will probably pay for it later with more weeds and grass to control with a hoe.


----------



## grapeman

Ok, first here a few pictures of vines I planted on Saturday. Some holes awaiting vines.






Some St Pepin waiting to be planted, trimmed up and then in the hole.


















Next onto Sunday's field- one you guys haven't seen before. It is newly plowed and harrowed. Yes it is sandy also.








Then after marking rows.









Layout vine locations and spray the spots.











And then auger the hole and back to where I started, rows with holes waiting to be planted. Oops I didn't get any pictures of the holes- well, just use your imagination. There are holes where the flags and paint were.


----------



## Wade E

You sure do get a lot of work done over there Rich!


----------



## AlFulchino

what is the average hours of sunlight in these fields?


----------



## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> what is the average hours of sunlight in these fields?




Geeze, I don't know Al.................
The fields at home are sunny almost all day- I lose maybe 2 hours a day to shade in spots. During the summer, the sun is overhead high enough that there is very little shade.


The other field has sun basically all day, with just a late sunrise in the morning. The pines are on the east, south and north. The west side is open. The south doesn bother because they are down in a 25 foot deep ravine, so they aren't much above the soil line. I need to work with what I have. I know my vineyard locations aren't perfect, but they are mine....... I need to live with them and make the best wine I can from my grapes.


----------



## AlFulchino

same here...i work w what i have.....i just was wondering because the deciduous trees have not leafed out yet....the shadows had me curious


----------



## grapeman

I had to look back at the pictures Al. Those aren't shadows...... the darker spots are the true color. The sun was so bright that the light colored areas are actually just bright reflective spots! This is one HOT field! I first cleared the junipers off that field in 1970 and planted potatoes when I was 16. It is sandy, but very fertile. It should be a good combination for grapes! 


"The deciduous trees have not leaved out yet" - remember Al we are north of you and they are just starting to leave out! Your grapes are undoubtedly ahead of mine also. Just as well. I am trying to beat the leaves getting the vines in the nursery planted.


I hear you about a busy time of the year. My brother opened up the greenhouses this last weekend and he will be out straight for the next 8 months.


----------



## grapeman

I am adopting a hardline attitude in planting new vines this year. I originally put in a wide variety of vines, and a lot of them are edge sitters for our climate. They make nice wine, but will they live good long lives here? That is what I wanted to determine before maker larger plantings. Last winter was a great one for weeding out the week ones that just aren't quite hardy enough for my climate. I lost a lot more vines than I would have liked to see, but better to lose 25 of a variety than 2 acres of them. So far the losers that will most likely be replaced are in order of disaster - Noiret, Corot Noir, Cab Franc, Alden, Traminette, and Chardonel. The first four will LIKELY be replaced either this year or possibly next. I may give the Traminette and Chardonel a reprieve. They are definitely alive and have good growing buds 16 inches above the ground- or just below the average winter snowline this year. I will let them show me what is growing and I will then trim them back to that. I will then train to fans and probably lay the canes down before winter. Will it be worth it in the end. Only time will tell.


I have vines I consider less than hardy enough in my nursery that I began last year to test them out. I have Cayuga and Vignoles that are nice year old vines- about 60 of each. I had them on the list to plant- they have been scratched from the list. I also made cuttings last fall of Corot Noir and Noiret and put them in plug trays. They are rooting and budding and will probably be destroyed. I have 250 Traminette cuttings and 500 Chardonel cuttings buried underground and was going to soon plant them in the nursery for rooting to expand - those plans are on hold for the foreseeable future. I may grow them anyways.


----------



## OilnH2O

Did you do the Leon Millot and Marachal Foch that Bilbo and I have tried? (I can't recall from your past posts) Was curious how they have done this year...


----------



## grapeman

I have the Leon Millot and it did alright this year. There are some dead buds, but in general it is fine. We have Marechal Foch at Willboro and it is very close to the Leon Millot, so it also is alright. There the Cayuga White and Vignoles don't look so hot. The Landot is variable- some are OK and some are quite pathetic.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Yep,vineyard space is too valuable and time spent in vineyard management is aconsiderable investment. 


So, any thoughts on what varietiesyour vineyard will migrate/gravitate towards?


----------



## grapeman

I am putting in close to 400 St. Pepin this year. It makes an excellent wine base for a fruity white wine. ES 6-16-30 (Adalmiina)is being called upon for the roll of pollinator for the St. Pepin- excellent body to boot!LaCrescent is being expanded to give the white wines a great fruity PUNCH. Full of lovely esters. Petite Amie is also arriving in a fairly big way for me- 108 of them. It makes a very nice wine by itself! The reds that didn't make the honor roll are being replaced with St. Croix and Marquette. The grape you have never heard of yet - Mn1200 (sister to Marquette) is coming to the vineyard compliments to Peter Hemstad of U Minn breeding program. It is part of my new trial planting aimed at improving fruit quality of wine grapes in cold environments through training systems and canopy management. 


So there you have it in a nutshell Bonnie! \


I was looking at the hourly NEWA readings for a town about 8 miles away for January. It reached -28 F and fluctuated through the night. At home my thermometer reached -22F but it may have been a bit colder. This was 10 degrees colder than it has reached in the last 15-20 years. Ah Global Warming! How cold would it have been without it?!


----------



## AlFulchino

question...have you heard anything at all about the polinators for St Pepin as having any effect on the taste of the st pepin grape?


----------



## grapeman

No I haven't. Why have you heard something?


----------



## grapeman

It has been a pretty productive week getting vines in the ground. I still have quite a ways to go, but a lot less than about a week ago. So far this year I have gotten 692 vines planted despite the weather. 


Yesterday was abysmal. We had a chance of a passing thunderstorm late, and it was raining before sunrise. It was so humid that with the slightest sneeze, it would start raining. I did the best I could marking, drilling holes and planting vines. About 11:00 AM we had such a downpour that the marking paint I had just put on, washed into the ground. I had to remark before using the auger. Then we had several horrendous thunderstorms move through for the next hour dropping over an inch of rain.


Today hasn't been much better. The wind has been blowing nonstop making the mid 40's seem much colder. I will tell you my hands got cold pulling vines out of the ground after loosening with a spade fork. I got odds and end planted to replace frozen dead vines.


I still have odds and ends to replace, but now I am waiting the guy with the backhoe to dig out two pine stumps for me. He was going to do it yesterday afternoon if it didn't rain - but it did! Now I don't know when he will be able to come. I need those stumps pulled and that ground prepared soon to plant.


I hope you all have been able to get your outside work done also.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Rich,
The weather today is very similar here, a constant drizzle with chilly NW wind. I did my finish pruning yesterday and did a good analysis of condition of all the vines. I chopped two and a half Frontenac right to the ground due to mouse damage. At this point none of my Landot Noir look alive, and we too hit 22 below in February, as you did. I have a feeling it may be why L. Noir looks like it does.
You mentioned the new Mn1200 variety that you are getting to try out. Is it for limited release at this point, or are they available upon request? My Marquette are looking great, and if the sister variety is developed for superior characteristics, count me in as interested. They would be the perfect replacement for Frontenac and L. Noir here.
Once we get this April weather out of here and can get May under way, I hope you get those planting chores finished finally. Good luck.
Bill


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## grapeman

Bill the Mn 1200 has been growing at Willsboro since the vineyard was planted. The selection team had asked for input from breeders/etc before selecting the varieties to plant. Peter Hemstad sent out Mn 1200 and Mn 1211- which was named the next year as Marquette. Mn 1200 hasn't been released to very many places yet and generally isn't available. I requested permission to propogate enough vines for my training study and was granted permission for that only. I see this variety here as being promising but it does have some negative aspects. It can try to set up to 5 bunches of grapes per shoot and thus does require cluster thinning. If left to overcrop, the clusters and berry size get small. That is part of the reason I selected this variety for my trial. It is a good one to demonstrate the effects of proper training and canopy management in improving wine quality. My other red I selected was Marquette - as that one can get very vigorous.


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Good, proceed with the trial - it will provide good information for the program! I'm going to muddle through with whatever growth I get from Frontenac and L. Noir and be thinking of a single replacement variety for next year.


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## grapeman

I got my 8 vines of NY95.0301.01 yesterday. They were greenhouse grown and about 24-30 inches tall grown in peat pots. I planted them this evening and reluctantly put growtubes on them. I don't like the growtubes, but decided it was the best way to harden them up with heavy wind expected. I will take them off in about a week. This is a product of the breeding program at Geneva. I like the looks of it and want to test it out further. 


I got my last chunk of ground finished preparing before planting- hopefully this coming weekend if not starting sooner. I got the two huge stumps removed yesterday- massive roots. There are a lot of pieces of roots all over, and normally I wouldn't put a piece of ground into production for a few year. I think though that with the grapes, by the time they are producing the roots will be gone - either rotted away or I will pick out while weeding - advantage of hands on treatment.


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## grapeman

Nothing super special to look at, but here is how the ground turned out after the stump removal. The picture is a bit off because of the sun shining last evening when I snapped the picture. There is room for 6 rows with 36 vines each in them in this block. 









Hopefully I will get most of it planted this weekend and then will be awaiting the Marquette vines from Andy Farmer to finish up this year's main plantings. I will still need to plant out the nursery as soon as they have rooted enough in the plug trays.


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## grapeman

Another tough day here in the vineyard trying to plant vines. I am inside waitng out another downpour. I have been rained out 3 times now- and the showers are supposed to begin at about 5:00 this evening






I'm down to 54 St. Pepin to plant and then it will be just fill-ins and the Marquette. I got some pictures, but will post them later.


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## grapeman

Well the rain keeps a coming! It quit for a while between 5:30 and 6:00 so I went out and planted the St. Pepin. I got more pictures and they show some of the water, before it got really wet. Now there is a LOT of standing water. I thought I would get the truck stuck but spun my way through sideways. Luckily I kept it between the grapes. Some of the holes I had to plant in were full of water, so I pulled the soil into them until it ran out and away. I will need to go back and clean up the soil around them, but then there are a lot of sticks and roots to get rid of anyways. At least I don't need any drip irrigation right away! LOL!


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## rrawhide

hey hey hey and hi rich


question - why don't you like grow tubes? Just planted 30 merlot vines along the driveway and covered with blue growtubes. I was kinda thinking about protection from the ground squirrals. MOST of last years vines are doing well - hopefully they will continue since we had to dig them back up(last year)and make wire baskets for the roots to protect them from moles and stuff!!! I have about 65 vines in now most with wire baskets. However, the 30 along the road do not have them -- - - just hoping!! AND I am building and installing an OWL box to look over them!!! We do have owls flying around the property so hope they will like their new home!!! I found another 1/4 acre that I am going to improve this year and plant next spring - - - and the owl can watch over them too!!!
I'll post pictures later - - - 


Have a great day all - - - 


rrawhide


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## Wade E

You wuss, put on your rain coat and get out there!



Just kidding, its looking great there Rich!


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## grapeman

rrawhide said:


> question - why don't you like grow tubes?
> 
> 
> rrawhide






It's one of those things where you really like the grow tubes or you hate them. They do add some protection for the vines, but in general I think they cause more problems than do good. If you use grow tubes figure on losing all that growth next year. Vines grown in the tubes are very thin and it all needs to be cut back to just a few inches of stem next pruning. I have seen vines that were 1/8 of an inch in the tube and the growth above it goes up to 3/8 of an inch. That is a totally undesireable situation and makes for an extremely weak trunk. I would rather just place a small bamboo rod and use the tapener tool to keep growth straight. In the tube you only get one or two weak shoots where without you can get multiple canes to feed that root during the year of establishment.


They do make it easier to use roundup around them though.


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## grapeman

I am just getting the pictures in the computer to upload this morning. 

Here is the latest cleared piece of ground ready to plant looking towards the west, with the holes drilled.





Drilled hole






Young vines ready to spade up






The same vines in a tub of water






Here is the other end of the field with lots of roots and stick to pick up (and some plastic also)





And piles of stuff dug out and pushed up (will clean up some later)






The first vines in






And then the rains began.









I didn't get any pictures of the area after all the rain showing the holes full of water.


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## grapeman

To follow up on some of the wines, from time to time some of you ask about the wines I made. Does anyone remember this picture?










Those wines won a gold and three silvers at the WineMaker Magazine Competition for 2009. It was bottled mid-summer 2008.


From left to right: LaCrescent:Gold. Adalmiina (ES6-16-30):Silver, St. Pepin:Silver, Petite Amie:Silver


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## AlFulchino

congratulations!


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## bilbo-in-maine

Nice going Rich! Was there a specific category in which they were entered, such as northern hybrid?


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## grapeman

The whites were in the White French/American Hybrid category. You need to use the categories they supply. The Leon Millot was in the Red French/American Hybrid category.


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## JWMINNESOTA

Nice Going!



I thought those all looked great the first time you posted them! Some well deserved recognition for all your work.


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## BonnieJoy

Congratulations, prize winning wines from a first classvineyard.






When you have some time, would you mind posting some tasting profiles?


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## grapeman

Time for a bit of an update on vine growth. The hybrids are going nuts, especially the Frontenac. They have grown 4-6 inches since I took the pictures yesterday AM. I'm hoping we get past the freezing weather soon. I would hate to lose them now!





























Here is the vineyard Guard Dog- yeah right! Notice the poor Chardonel on the left- no crop this year for them!


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## grapeman

I had a fairly productive 3 day weekend. First I got the last of the vines planted - 108 Marquette. Then I applied fertilizer to all the vines. The older vines got a pound of fertilizer and the small ones got a half pound. I cultivated the small ones to loosen the soil after the torrential rains last weekend and harrowed them after. I hoed weeds in some of the older vines and then ran the roto-tiller throught the small ones in a figure 8 to get rid of some weeds already trying to grow with the new vines. I installed some new clips I got for fastening the wire to and set the wire below the fruiting wire in the VSP vines. Some are almost large enough to bring the wireand thus the vines up. I will do that in a few days if it doesn't freeze them all tonight. Today I finished tilling the small vines and then got the four row markers from the farm and marked out the rows for a new nursery. I then set the 500 Chardonel and 300 Traminette I had calloused earlier. I figure I may as well grow out what I can and then let others use them if I can't. I will plant the plugs with small cuttings in them when they get rooted just a bit more in that nursery. 


I'm going out now to hook up the sprayer to the tractor so if the wind dies down later I can spray for the first time this year.


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## AlFulchino

hey...looking good..what is that trellsi system called...the one showing a lower cordon and the higher one that looks 30-36 inches abobe the lower one


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## bilbo-in-maine

Looking VERY good Rich, other than your Chardonel, which looks like my Landot Noir. Tell us what the fertilizer is, what ratios, and why now rather than at berry set.


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## grapeman

First Al, I don't know if it will work or not, but the idea of that setup is to spread the vigor of the vines, The wires are just what you said and the whole row was set up VSP. That is one row of the grant study. I want to add more shoots to try to cut the vigor of all of them and thus keep them under control. Will it work? Don't know, but that the reason for the study.


Second Bill, why the fert now? Because it is very sandy soil that holds little fertility. I need it to supply spring growth and set the blossoms up for in a few weeks. If I wait, it is too late. It is just general purpose 15-15-15 with micronutrients. I hear the groans now, but that's what went on them. This application is meant as being a base fertilizer for the year. It has enough of everything in it to support roots, top growth and fruit. It's not enough for the whole year, but I supplement later as needed. 


I put on my first application of spray for the year since U have a foot of growth. I applied 3 pounds Manzate 75DF, 4 ounces Elite, and 1 quart liquid Carbaryl (tanished plant bugs). That pretty well covers everything out there. It was then or not at all before bloom, and I felt I wanted the protection there with a week of rain headed our way.


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## OilnH2O

Hey, Rich -- all this about fertilizer makes me curious. Last fall, a friend brought me some "Yellowstone Gold" -- just a made up name for going out and picking up the dried "cow pies" of bison, which has a golden brown color. He swears by it and says "everyone" uses it in their gardens and it is "better than Miracle Grow." I have little experience with natural fertilizers such as this, and would like to try it out but before I throw caution to the winds and just spread it around, I was curious if you had some insights?

Dave


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## grapeman

Whenever you have manure to apply it is preferable to man made or formulated fertilizers. The manure as long as it is rotted or composted provides a safe source of nutrients and organic matter. Now raw driedbison patties, I have no idea about........................ There aren't a lot ofbison around here, although there are some!


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## grapeman

I was going to post some pictures using Google Chrome, but every time I try to open it, it closes again 1 second later. So I will post a few pictures using IE - slow but it works. 




Things are growing well, but slowly with an overall coolish spring. It was 43 here last night but it was 39 breaking a record again for Plattsburgh. Things are really going to get busy here very soon with training. It was nice Saturday so I worked the weed patrol and got things pretty clean. 


Here are a couple shots showing the young vines planted this spring. Notice the lack of trellis. I am not rushing the trellisso that I can use the tiller doing a figure 8 around them. That gets rid of the bulk of the weeds and grass and then the harrow or cultivator cleans out the middles.





































The latter pictures are from the new vineyard site. That one has 22 row so far with 24 vines in each at 9x6 foot spacing running north and south. The way the field is situated, it isn't shaded any part of the day even with all the big pine trees around. It is made up mostly of white wine grapes.


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## grapeman

Splitting the post so I don't have problems, here are some pictures of the growing older vines. 


Frontenac on VSP and then one of them modified to 4 Arm-Kniffen.












Leon Millot is a bit behind the frontenac








And then the LaCrosse


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## fivebk

Appleman,
Thanks for the update and of course all the pics. I can only hope that someday my little vineyard will have vines in it that look as good as yours. Where do you find the time to take care of all that and work too. As slow as I move with my bad back I could not even begin to care for that many grapes. I talked to a lady from a local nursery the other day and she said that she had heard that I wae trying to grow grapes. They had planted 3.5 to 4 acres of grapes about 6 years ago thinking a newly started winery was going to buy the plants from them . Well long story short the deal fell through and they have all those vines that are going to waste. They are now grown up with trees, weeds, etc. She said that they do produce some grapes and if I wanted some this fall to have at them. I also asked about getting some cuttings to start in my own vineyard, and she said I could have all the cuttings I wanted. I don't know how to start them but I asked anyway GO FIGURE!!! So maybe I may have some fresh grapes to play with this fall. The two varieties she has are Foch and LaCrosse.


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## JWMINNESOTA

Appleman, that must be one of the most peaceful places on earth!


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## grapeman

It seems that way at times, more now than when I was younger. It is my little vineyard Hid-In-Pines and remains fairly tranquil and quiet, except when Harleys drive by or the jackass next door brays half the day, or cars speed by, or the helicopter transports for hospitals go over, or the normal pot surveillance(helicopter) or the Homeland Security BlackHawk goes over. But alas they are all vey quiet compared to the B-52s, KC-135 tankers or even the FB-111s going supersonic while the base was in Plattsburgh.









It really is peaceful though and I enjoy it immensely or I wouldn't do it.


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## grapeman

I tried an interesting little experiment about a week ago. The Chardonel that had frozen so badly were generally all starting to grow back fromground to about 16 inches above ground and had about 2-3 inches of growth. I had been wondering if the old dead stuff should be pruned off, so I cut two canes off on the end vine down to just above some new growth. They started dripping profusely. What would happen? 


I checked in on it today. The vine I cut is still at two to three inches of growth. The vines below the cuts were black with old sap. All the rest of the vines in the row I haven't touched have 12 to 18 inches of new growth on multiple shoots.


I guess I will just let the winterkilled vines recover on their own this year and prune back to good new canes at the end of the growing season when they go dormant. Then I will wait and see how they fare over next winter!


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## bilbo-in-maine

Rich - that is a good experiment. I have often noticed after pruning that where new vine growth, buds chiefly, is saturated by bleeding sap from pruning cuts, the new growth appears to just about stop for awhile. It is definitely retarded in progressing. Right now I have buds that have pushed only two inches while the most advanced new growth is maybe two feet. Dormant pruning would seem to be the best assurance that new spring growth will not be held back, although in the cold north we take a chance in doing the entire pruning in February or March and not have a chance later to tweak for bud kill.


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## AlFulchino

i have noted a similar thing...so when my landot was bud killed above the snow line i let the old wood stand....currently i am letting as many as 10 of the 20 of so shoots grow and flourish so as to not retard any food production for our relatively short growing season....with time i will reduce the number of canes to 3-4 






has anyone ever noted cane/cordon dieback that was caused by something other than eutypa?


i have noted this on a few vines and it ***appears*** to be related to one of 2 or 3 things....the spring pruning caused the wood around the buds to dry out but not enough that the bud didnt produce some small leaves and a small cluster or two before ultimately dieback...another possibility is only the lower canewood was damaged by cold weather and the abovebuds survived to release their goods but no continued flow of sap occurred...a third possibility that i have is that some vines had an abundance of bud development at the base of the vine even though i did a spring bud rub off..sometimes some vines send a lot more out after you leave that vine..and perhaps they sap the flow of water and nutrients from the above cane/cordons


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## Scott

appleman said:


> It seems that way at times, more now than when I was younger. It is my little vineyard Hid-In-Pines and remains fairly tranquil and quiet, except when Harleys drive by or the jackass next door brays half the day, or cars speed by, or the helicopter transports for hospitals go over, or the normal pot surveillance(helicopter) or the Homeland Security BlackHawk goes over. But alas they are all vey quiet compared to the B-52s, KC-135 tankers or even the FB-111s going supersonic while the base was in Plattsburgh.




Appleman it sounds like you have alot of fans just checking on your progress. Popular man


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## grapeman

I sure as heck couldn't grow weed and get away with it! It's funny though, one fellow vineyardist here in the area stopped by this spring to get the Edelweiss vines I decided not to plant (about 70 of them). The first thing out of his mouth when he got out of his car was, "Man what a spot to grow pot!" Yes the area does grow it well and has since the early 1900's, but I sure as heck wouldn't try it!


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## grapeman

"Houston, We have Bloom!"


I worked at Willsboro today and noted the very first blooming grapes today. Just a very few. This evening I was tucking Frontenac grapes, and I have bloom at home also - just a smattering here and there. It turned out sunny today which wasn't predicted and the grapes loved it. They are just booming! Tomorrow should be sunny also and that will open quite a few blossoms! YEAH!


I tried to take a few pictures today of the delicate blossoms and will see if they are worth posting tomorrow when I will be in the office.


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## grapeman

I don't have any pictures to post today because the grape vines ate the camera!












I wanted to update this a bit. It has continued cloudy and gloomy for about three quarters of the month of June with just a few sunny days here and there. The clouds and rain continues to come from the East - which usually only happens during big winter snowstorms. We have actually gotten the rains at just about ideal times and only have three inches so far for the month at my place- not bad!


The vines are eating up the 80 degree weather even with the clouds. The days the sun shines, you can hear and see the vines grow. Bloom continues with some varieties and is done with some and bb shot size berries formed. It is impossible to keep up with tucking and tying the vines to keep them manicured. 


Weeds are also loving the weather. I am in need of a roundup application to get the weeds under some of the vines, but now need to worry about drift onto the green vegetation. I continue to run the tiller through the newly planted vines doing the figure 8 pattern. I tyed up the growth in them on Saturday.


How is everyone else doing battling the elements this year?


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## bilbo-in-maine

Hey, thanks for asking, Rich!

I have your same run of clouds and gloom, approaching eight inches of rain for the month, but temps in low 60's is usual and today we rose to 57 degrees.

All varieties have set flowers, some flowers have bloomed, but no BB's yet. I've only gotten two sprays done so far but don't see any rampant disease yet





The season seems so delayed that I will be very pleasantly surprised if I get a ripe crop in September/October, but we'll only know when the time comes. This growing season is being an interesting experience in the unknown.


----------



## grapeman

It continues to be gloomy and rainy here at the vineyard. I took some pictures in spite of the rain and will try to get some more if it ever quits raining. The vines are ranging from full bloom to bb size grapes depending on the variety. I have a ton of training to do and here is a picture to demonstrate that.






Here are some others going from bloom to post bloom. The larger ones are Frontenac and will certainly need thinning.


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## bilbo-in-maine

Ooof, looking at that first picture, I'd say you have your work cut out Rich. Are those vines Frontenac by any chance? They ARE vigorous. Do you pull most laterals? What is your training program?

The sun made an appearance here this afternoon. I really had forgotten what it looks like, we have been so gloomy so long. I have some flowers on St. Croix that blossomed about two weeks ago and are now crumbling away at the ends due to rot. Other varieties appear to have held on better. I'm not sure whether St. Pepin managed to get fertilized in this weather. Let me know how yours fared.
Bill


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## grapeman

Yes Bill they are Frontenac. They are trained to a 4-Arm Kniffen system as part of my Training Trial. I have to try to decide on the best way to handle things. I haven't butchered them yet because I wanted to leave too many grapes and shoots on them to try to slow vigor. I was going to tackle them this week, but the weather didn't cooperate- again. By the way, there are no laterals to speak of yet. That's why I haven't shoot thinned or hedged yet. That forces lateral development and make an even denser jungle. Again this year, VSP seems to be a better and easier way to handle the Frontenac, and hopefully when I am done, I will have some figures to back it up. I will also be adding in shoot thinning vs. cluster thinning, vs. a check. They will all get a dose of leaf pulling. As part of the trial data, I am collecting time needed for canopy management for each system. 


The St Pepin look pretty good so far. Time will tell if they set good or not. We have actually had some pretty decent pollination weather. Mild breezes, some sun and then afternoon thunderstorms most days.


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## Wade E

If it keeps up with this crappy weather like this do you think itll be a bad year fro grapes, they usually do way better with dry seasons dont they Rich.


----------



## grapeman

Different years weather is what gives us great and not so great vintages. The trick is to make the best wine with what the weather gives you. Do the best you can with that weather Mother Nature dishes out and grow the best grapes you can. But then you may need to adjust a few things with the grapes when it is harvest time. I prefer dryish weather, but other that getting depressed with clouds and gloom, we aren't that wet yet. It takes a lot more rain with the warmer weather to saturate things than it does in the spring or autumn.


----------



## Dean

Man, I wish we would get rain! I'm from the west "wet" coast, and this past June was the most dry that we've had since 1965. My lawn is dead pretty much since middle of may due to lack of rain. My grapes however, are doing GREAT! We had a very slow start to spring, however, it seems like we had a very early start to summer. 

We have too many wildfires around the area and our forestry people are going to face their biggest challenge in decades this season to keep forest fires down.


----------



## Wade E

Everyone I know around here that has a garden is saying that their crops arent doing good at all.


----------



## Waldo

Same here in our area wade. We got way too much rain this spring


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## Wade E

We are still getting it everyday. In the last 33 days we have had rain about 28 of them and cloudy almost everyday. We have had some sun but not much and all the plants around here are showing that. Normally when we get this much rain the grass needs cutting at least once a week but Ive been doing every 2 - 2 1/2 weeks. Ive never waited that long to mow my lawn ever.


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## farmer

We had the third driest May on record, June was average but it is getting dry here and the grass is drying up. The crops are ok so far but we could use a good soaking.If we don't get a good rain in the next week I will be watering my new vines and thetrees I planted last year.


----------



## grapeman

Here are some pictures of the vines involved with my SARE Research Project. The Leon Millot and Frontenac are trained to both Vertical Shoot Positioning (VSP) and 4AK (4 Arm Kniffen). They are at my canopy training starting point so I thought I would record them here for you. All I did was tie the VSP upright and clip the ends of the lower arm shoots so I can spray next chance I get. Now as time permits I will be adjusting the number of shoots in one treatment and the number of clusters in another and the third will get neither, except for adjusting to a maximum 50 shoots per vine.

Leon Millot- VSP and then 4 AK

















Frontenac VSP and then 4AK

















LaCrosse TWC and then 4AK















Then JW was asking about the StPepin so here is a shot.





And here is a quarter of my new vines






And then a few bunches of some small grape variety. The bunches are really early, blue and have small clusters. Very sweet. It was a mislabeled variety and was supposed to be St. Croix.






Hope you enjoyed the pictures. See what a bit too much rain can do? I am playing catchup with the vigor and weed control, but I made a lot of progress today so I feel better (and a sunny day helped).


----------



## Wade E

Thats looking pretty good there!


----------



## grapeman

Here are a couple quick pictures of the sprayer for Willsboro almost completed. The first picture show a bit of my "Vine Yard" I planted last year. I will describe it better later in another post under Willsboro.


----------



## R Ziegler

just curious - are the lower nozzles angled or can they be? So they can get up and under the canopy more.


----------



## AlFulchino

not gona speak for Rich here..he can answer you best...but most nozzles spray in a fan downward, straight out and upward, so he would be hitting the ground a bit...the trunks and also up into the underside of the cordon and leaf area

am i right rich?...your spray pattern is similar to what i am doing


----------



## grapeman

Like Al says, the nozzles spray in a fan shape. They are offset 15 degrees so the droplets don't hit each other on the overlap between nozzles. They hit the underside of the leaves pretty good. By going up one row and down the next, you have to hunt to find a spot on any leaf not covered. If you look at the nozzle spacing you will see the get closer together towards the top. That puts extra spray at the top which is perfect for the vines at Willsboro using TWC. It is hard to see it in the pictures, but the booms slide in and out and go from about 4 feet wide to 7 feet wide. That compensates for growing canopy during the season.


----------



## grapeman

Here is a picture of my new vineyard (new field) after tilling crossways to get rid of in-row weeds. I normally disk between rows, but that leaves a strip of weeds and grass. The normal figure 8 I do around the vines didn't do the job I wanted so I spent 6 hours tilling an acre sideways.






The vines are growing, but need more sun to really take off. Maybe they will get some one of these months.......


----------



## grapeman

Will the weather ever improve before winter? It sure does not seem at all like July andy more than it seemed like June in June. The days have been very cool for this time of year. Highs have been in the 70's most days except for some 60's. Rainfall and clouds are discouraging. Normally July is a dry mont with our average at 3.23 inches. Yesterday , the 16th saw us break that amount, with heavy rain later tonight expected, again.


Growing degree days are an indicator of the warmth for a growing season. We typically get around 2500 in a year (base 50). Normally at this point we are about half way there, but again are lagging about 20 percent behind normal. It will be interesting to see how this years vintage turns out! SHould be memorable.


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich...is that a wet spot out in the middle of that field? i got me one of those 

will you be planting a cover crop for wind erosion?...i have not done so because i get an incredible amount of heat absorbed into and them later release from my soil.....but i am considering planting an annual cover in my moisture laden area to sop up some extra rain when we get it


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## rrawhide

Just so everyone is clear on the grow days that Rich is referring - here is the easy explanation:


<H2>GDD calculation</H2>


GDD are calculated by taking the average of the daily maximum and minimum temperatures compared to a base temperature, _T_<SUB>base</SUB>, (usually 10 °C). As an equation:
<DL>
<DD>



</DD></DL>


GDDs are typically measured from the winter low. Any temperature below _T_<SUB>base</SUB> is set to _T_<SUB>base</SUB> before calculating the average. Likewise, the maximum temperature is usually capped at 30 °C because most plants and insects do not grow any faster above that temperature. However, some warm temperate and tropical plants do have significant requirements for days above 30 °C to mature fruit or seeds.


For example, a day with a high of 23 °C and a low of 12 °C would contribute 7.5 GDDs.
<DL>
<DD>



</DD></DL>


A day with a high of 13 °C and a low of 10 °C would contribute 1.5 GDDs.
<DL>
<DD>



</DD></DL>


now - see how easy that was - huh?
as Walso says:


Bawahawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!


----------



## AlFulchino

i will have to plug that in and start taking readings...because of the discussion i made a point to put four thermometers out in the viineyard...the air temp 7 ft off the ground away from the vineyard at 11am was 85 degrees

on the ground on the middle of the vineyard IN the sun was 110

4.5 feet up sitting on leaves IN the sun it was 100

in the shade on the same vine at the same ht it was 91 and at the other end of the same row sitting on leaves in the sun at 4.5 feet the temp was 99

as i said somewhere else my place is a heat sink WHEN the sun is shining


----------



## grapeman

First, Al, no that is not a wet spot- that would never likely happen in that field. It is a sandy ridge dropping off six feet on three sides and 12 on the other. I will not plant a cover crop for a few years to avoid competition for moisture. After that, yes it likely will be seeded to fescue.


Rawhide, I do the calcs in a spreadsheet and use Fahrenheit so
((H+L)/2) - 50 = GDD
((80+60)/2)-50 =20 GDD


Al UVM has a section in their cold hardy grape site devoted to statewide cummulative GDDs
http://pss.uvm.edu/grape/2009DDAccumulationGrape.html
sometimes it lags a bit behind.


I also use this site
http://newa.nrcc.cornell.edu/newaLister/wea_page
for monitoring temps and other weather. Our station at Willsboro is currently down. The weather station is about 100 yards from the vineyard, so when it is working, it is very handy.


----------



## AlFulchino

this is from a town adjoining mine.which base would you folks use?

<table align="left" border="1" cellpadding="5" width="48%"><t><tr><td colspan="5" align="CENTER">* <div align="center">Milford</font></font>*</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td rowspan="2" align="CENTER" width="161"></td>
<td colspan="4" align="CENTER">CUM Since March 1</span></td> 
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" align="CENTER">*Growing Degree Days*</td>
</tr> 
<tr>
<td align="CENTER" width="161">*For The Week Ending*</td>
<td align="CENTER" width="121">*Base 50F*</td>
<td align="CENTER" width="70">*Base 41F*</td>
<td align="CENTER" width="168">*Base 32F*</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">03/02/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">0</td>
<td align="CENTER">0</td>
<td align="CENTER">0</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">03/09/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">3</td>
<td align="CENTER">10</td>
<td align="CENTER">30</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">03/16/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">5</td>
<td align="CENTER">19</td>
<td align="CENTER">56</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">03/23/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">7</td>
<td align="CENTER">32</td>
<td align="CENTER">97</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">03/30/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">12</td>
<td align="CENTER">49</td>
<td align="CENTER">147</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">04/06/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">18</td>
<td align="CENTER">76</td>
<td align="CENTER">224</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">04/13/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">23</td>
<td align="CENTER">92</td>
<td align="CENTER">277</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">04/20/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">43</td>
<td align="CENTER">142</td>
<td align="CENTER">369</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">04/27/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">91</td>
<td align="CENTER">233</td>
<td align="CENTER">522</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">05/04/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">159</td>
<td align="CENTER">354</td>
<td align="CENTER">702</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">05/11/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">206</td>
<td align="CENTER">457</td>
<td align="CENTER">868</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">05/18/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">259</td>
<td align="CENTER">562</td>
<td align="CENTER">1036</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">05/26/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">359</td>
<td align="CENTER">726</td>
<td align="CENTER">1269</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">06/01/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">389</td>
<td align="CENTER">796</td>
<td align="CENTER">1392</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">06/08/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">467</td>
<td align="CENTER">936</td>
<td align="CENTER">1595</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">06/15/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">532</td>
<td align="CENTER">1064</td>
<td align="CENTER">1785</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">06/22/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">607</td>
<td align="CENTER">1199</td>
<td align="CENTER">1984</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">06/29/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">710</td>
<td align="CENTER">1365</td>
<td align="CENTER">2213</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">07/06/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">767</td>
<td align="CENTER">1515</td>
<td align="CENTER">2426</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td align="CENTER">07/13/09</td>
<td align="CENTER">888</td>
<td align="CENTER">1670</td>
<td align="CENTER">2645</td></tr></t></table>


----------



## grapeman

You would use the Base 50 generally. That is the one for warm season crops. The 32 degree base one is for cool season crops, especially grasses. I'm not sure what the 41 degree one is for.


----------



## JWMINNESOTA

Looks like your summer is similar to ours, except your getting more moisture. Will be interesting to see what effect it has on your yield and quality.


----------



## AlFulchino

yes, 50 is what i assumed, but NH has not gotten to the point where they spend a lot of time on grapes at the ext service....but we are coming online bit by bit

started seeing verasion on one variety earlier this week....so its time i get back on my netting research...thus far am leaning toward spec trellis vine side netting...they sent me a sample...looks rugged enough to last and to do the job


----------



## grapeman

Wow! You acturally have a variety in veraison? Unbelievable. Even in a good year, we don't have any turn until August here! What kind is it?





Well I had visitors here yesterday. Wayne Wilcox and Justine Vanden Heuval of Cornell made the stop with Kevin Iungerman from the Northeast Fruit Program. They were visiting a few area vineyards the day before our joint event with the University of Vermont. 


Wayne couldn't find any diseases in the vineyard and as harrd as I tried to get Justine to say things were too dense or too much fruit, she would just say, "They look great to me. I wouldn't do anything different." I did get something for Wayen to be interested in. I have a large grapevine (Riparia) hanging in a tree a matter of 25 feet from the ends of a few rows. Yesterday all the fruit hanging on it came down with Downy Mildew. He loved seeing it, since riparia is normally resistant to downy mildew. The leaves were spotless but all the fruit was just plain fuzzy. He snapped a zillion photos of it. Today he even commented on it and said he had filled a memory card with pictures of it. Great, just what I want to be known for- a downy mildew infestation on wild grapevines that should be resistant!


Last evening after their stop at my place we all went to a Mexican food restaurant. We all chatted about grape culture, disease control and who has great wine in the Finger Lakes and Ontario. It was a very interesting time.


----------



## AlFulchino

hey that is great Rich.....it can be hard to get the educated to be real talkative when they are absorbing what they are seeing...and i mean educated in a good way.....people who have a great interest such as with grapes are all EYES when they are gathering info from observation

the verasion is just a hint and i caught it on the west side of a frontenac row, that was the good news...the bad news is that i had to cut back 5 different cordons on foch(3) and millot (2) from that dieback i mentioned....sure hope it was just a hardening off issue


----------



## grapeman

Did you get a chance to e-mail Wayne? I printed the paper out and then never had it with me when I talked to him. 


I talked with Andy a bit today at our meeting on this side of the lake about the Marquette Crown Gall issue. He felt it was isolated to a vineyard that may have issues. Right now he is just monitoring it. He says it is just suspect since the other varieties don't have it and there seemed to be no physical cause for it developing so thinks the vine may just be more susceptible. We got a chance to talk a bit more than we normally do at these events. He stayed late along with some others and we had an impromptu wine tasting. I had a few whites and there were a few others that had brought some. We all stood around shot the bull and tasted a bunch.


----------



## AlFulchino

yep i emailed him...hopefully he has some time when he gets back

i have not seen any crown gall on marquette..hopefully what he was telling me is...as you say...isolated to that vineyard he spoke of

glad you had a great time!


----------



## grapeman

We have moved into a new dimension at the vineyard! WET! Pure sand here and it is WET!


It has been a very wet year and things are growing, but a bit slow. Last evening we got another 1/2 inch of rain on top of the other rains we have gotten. It was so wet this morning that I couldn't even hoe in the sand- too wet. I gave up and was filling out paperwork instead. We were due to go to an outdoor pool party this afternoon. No problem. The foecast was for mostly sunny with an outside chance of a passing shower. Well tell that to the clouds!


It started to rain with big drops and then started dumping copious amounts of rain. Within 15 minutes it rained 1.5 inches and kept raining. It was running rivers everywhere and we had inches of water even on our sand. By the time it got done in a half hour we had gotten 2 inches of rain.
As bad as it is up here at the vineyard, it is ten times worse at the other side of the farm at my brothers greenhouses and vegetable farm. The rains eroded huge gullies through the fields and moved tons of topsoil, not to mention everything else not bolted down!


The last time it rained this hard was 40 years ago..................


----------



## AlFulchino

2 inches? that is it? 

i got _*3.5 inches*_ thursday overnight


----------



## grapeman

Yeah that's all Al, but it was in a half hour! That is a four inch an hour rate. If that was snow, it would be equal to 4 feet of snow per hour- talk about a dump!


----------



## AlFulchino

it does make viticulture challenging...in addition it reduces the number of days available to work in the vineyard


----------



## grapeman

The vineyard has been drying out recently. Until today we have gotten less than 3/4 inch of rain and overnight got enough to bring us up to almost an inch- just about normal. The skies have been at least partly to mostly sunny most days and some days it has been in the 80's. Yesterday made it to 86. The vines and the grapes have been doing well. Things are actually starting to look good.

























And then came this afternoon............................
and it started to rain......................... and the storms starting sitting stationary and training. Since 2:00 this afternoon, we have gotten another 3 inches of rain so far bringing us up to our normal monthly total in just a few hours.















Look out Al, it is probably headed your way and you will get 10 inches! Better put some more fill in there and raise that building up some more- maybe we should do like on the Gulf Coast and put our buildings on stilts!


----------



## hannabarn

Rich, I wonder if there is any way you could send some of that rain back west about 800 miles. I sure could use some of that. It is very dry here!!


----------



## AlFulchino

getting a drizzle now...first rain in about a week....last spray was aug 6....a front is pushing thru so who knows maybe more rain will come ( not that i want any)


----------



## grapeman

You can gladly have some Barney if I can figure out how to get it to go backwards. We were doing pretty good, for a whole week there!






It is heading slowly southeast- so probably about 12-2AM tomorrow morning. Maybe it will be raine out by then Al.


----------



## grapeman

Summer finally arrived this last week. We have pegged about as many growing degree days in the last week as the whole previous month. It has been generally dry for that time, ever since the almost 3 inch rainfall last Tuesday. Humidity has been about 75-90 percent and the temps generally around 90 with lows in the mid 60's. If we were used to it, it would be vry nice, but seems hot when you get used to 75 all the time.


Veraison is just getting going and the grapes are starting to size up quite a bit again. This evening, the vines just have a "greener" look to them than usual and grew again today. The one vine of St Croix that I believe is Blueball instead has really turned. Half to two thirds of the grapes on it are blue. I tried one and it definitely tastes like Concord. It could make a good grape to grow for early sales even beraring well after a very cold winter.


I'm beginning to think I should have had the trellis up in the new vineyards this year after all. I used 5 foot bamboo poles with over 4 feet out of the ground. Most of the vines are almost to the top to some 3 feet above the top of the poles - and they have another month or so of active growing!


All the vines that had winter killed almost to the ground have come back fiercly with most of them well above the top wires. SOme of them are 12 feet or more long. I can train them to the wires next year if they don't freeze again and have them bearing. If they freeze again, it's light out for them. I have already planted other vines next to the Alden and Cab Franc in anticipation of their demise.




I really need to get some updated pictures, but you will see some weeds since I can't get rid of them all in the small amount of time I seem to get between rain storms this year.


----------



## Wade E

Man I wish I lived near you as I would love to help and learn eve though Id probably ever grow any due to my yard. I love to do that stuff and Ive been picking fruits for the past few months now and it too gets addicting.


----------



## AlFulchino

now now Rich..when it is raining out it makes it easier for us to crawl around on the ground and hand pull those weeds


----------



## grapeman

I tried that a few times Al. They come out of the ground easier, but just keep on growing where you throw them! If you are all caught up on yours, drive on over and you can show me how to pull them! I might catch on after a couple acres worth!


----------



## grapeman

As I keep promising here are a few pictures.

First, remember the Chardonel that froze back to the ground? Here they are now.





Here are the small vines in part of the new plantings





Here is some Frontenac 4Arm Kniffen





Frontenac on VSP














Here is one misidentified vine- maybe Bluebell?




and a closeup of the grapes on it.





And a couple random shots....


----------



## Wade E

Starting to get some good color there!


----------



## rrawhide

lookin' very good - - - - -


keep it up - - - 


good job - - - 


rrawhide


----------



## hannabarn

They have come a long way since I visited a month ago. I guess that is not a surprise!


----------



## grapeman

That's one advantage to a short season area like this, things move along very quickly!


----------



## chiefmike

Rich, one of the things I just noticed is that I don't see any visible irrigation equipment. Is it not needed in your area?


----------



## grapeman

chiefmike said:


> Rich, one of the things I just noticed is that I don't see any visible irrigation equipment. Is it not needed in your area?










I have never needed any sort of irrigation. We are a temperate area and have fairly high rainfall normally. This year it has been through the roof. June was just a bit above normal with a little over 4 inches rain. July was a washout with over 10 inches of rain. So far in August we are over 4 inches.


----------



## chiefmike

Interesting. I should have realized that, but I get so used to irrigation being a major issue in growing grapes here that I forget that there are plenty of places in the country that actually experience that thing yall call moisture during July and August.


----------



## rrawhide

I missed a couple of days on my wifes garden and wow - wish we would get rain - but won't until Oct - Nov earliest!!!!!!!


so, gotta irrigate - - -


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

I figured I would add a few pictures to let everyone know how things are going. 

Generally with grapes, especially vinifera you don't get a good crop until the fourth year. To start things out here is a picture of a two year old Frontenac Last year after training to the fruiting wire. 




Note the small size- that's why you normally wait two more years before cropping. The cold climate grapes we are growing, such as Frontenac are very vigorous and can be quite precocious (early bearing). Here is a picture of that same row of Frontenac in their third year. I expect about 5 tons to the acre with them. 









Here is a four year old Frontenac 






A shoot thinned Frontenac 





The Valiant vine is really coloring up 





Over the top netting versus side netting -left row 4 year old Frontenac, right Three Year Frontenac





The Sabrevois got a haircut before netting 




and on the other side of the Sabrevois 






LaCrosse behind the small vines 






End of pictures for now. 

I have a pallet of bottles coming today for bottling last years wine - 112 cases. Not enough to completely fill them all, but I will use the rest next year.


----------



## nhdennis

appleman,


I'm good at packing pallets but how do you get 112 cs on a skid?


I can usually get 56 cs750ml &amp; 60cs 1.5L to a pallet. Some odball ones like sparkling you can only get 40-47 cs due to large outer box.


Just a question...


Dennis


----------



## R Ziegler

The winery I work at when I have time has 112 cases of empty .750ml bottles ona pallet when delivered, which is 8 rowshigh by14 cases per layer. Then when bottled and restacked we break it down to 4 rows by 14 for 56 cases a pallet for shipping.
This would be my guess - at least.


----------



## grapeman

R Ziegler said:


> The winery I work at when I have time has 112 cases of empty .750ml bottles ona pallet when delivered, which is 8 rowshigh by14 cases per layer. Then when bottled and restacked we break it down to 4 rows by 14 for 56 cases a pallet for shipping.
> This would be my guess - at least.




That's my game plan also. As I unload from the truck I am going to break down to two skids - 4x14. I'm not sure my tractor would be able to move a full skid. When unloading Pro-Mix (potting soil) a full skid makes the fron end very light.


----------



## AlFulchino

268.8 gallons..uh-oh


----------



## rrawhide

the math works - i got the same number


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

The math works, but not the logic............... Like I said, I don't have enough wine to fill all the bottles, so I will use them up next year. I need about 84 cases. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


By the way there were 7 high x 16 per row. We removed 2 rows from the top and I took the rest easily on the tractor. I probably could have moved the full height pallet, but wouldn't have been able to get it in under my 8 foot high garage door. I brought about 50 cases to the winery so I can begin bottling whites soon. And then onto the reds.......


I bought enough more barrels to hold this years crop if I can't free up space in last years storage in time.


----------



## gaudet

Al Fulchino said:


> 268.8 gallons..uh-oh



Don't forget the angel's share (that 68.8 gallons)...... They are a drunken lot them angels


----------



## Wade E

Those grapes look awesome Rich. Im still hoping I can get up there later next month.


----------



## farmer

Thegrapes look great that is what I am looking forward to next year.


How much thinning do you do ,enough to let sun in to the grapes?Looking at your new vines in the pictures do you prune them ?I have been letting the new vines go wild, as much foliage as possible to feed the roots .


----------



## Waldo

Looking mighty good up there appleman


----------



## grapeman

The shoot thinned vinesare a type of canopy management. At some point during the growing season, you remove some of the shoots- either uprights with VSP or hanging ones with TWC or other trailing systems. The Frontenac are 4 Arm-Kniffen shoot thinned. I left the extra shoots until the end of July before thinning. That kept theshoots in a stressed mode, which limits their growth lengthwise. I then take out enough to leave about 5 canes per running foot of fruiting wire total. Single wire systemes (VSP) get 5 left per wire foot. Two wiire systems get 3 left on the top and 2 per bottom wire. This opens the canopy up well to sunlight and drying air movement. The first grape pictues (all but the last one with lots of small clusters) are part of my small research trial studying just what I am talking about here. Next up for the trial is to see what differences, if any, there is in fruit quality. 


As for the young vines, I let them grow crazy, but tie several shoots to the bamboo poles to keep some growth upright. That allows me to get closer when working the middle ground between vines and rows. The smaller ones you see were grazed back a number of times by my four legged helpers. The ones at the far end are very bushy with many tops and are 4-7 feet long. They will be cut back next year to be established on the yet to be installed trellises.


----------



## peaches9324

appleman I'm thinking about turning 1 or 2 acres into agrape trellislol and to think I just started with the hobby of making wine not even a month ago! OK so I'm addicted already but I've been working on getting the75 ft in size concord vines we have in working order and I have added a couple candice vines but the trellis is so old and elapidated, that I just want to tear them out. I just planted the candice last fall. So thier not fully established yet. and the acreage I plan on using has been a vege garden or field I should say. So it won't be a proplem of clearing the space, I also have bros and the equipment to work the ground up again for such. My question is what grapes should I plant? I'm in north eastern ohio and I will primarily be making cabernet sauvignon, and white zin or better yet could you refer me to some good books on best trellis and also would like some info on pruning. I've had these plans in back of my mind for over a year now so don't think I'm just jumping into everything at once. btw I do have an addictive personality though lol
thanks alot


----------



## grapeman

Peaches why not start your own thread topic for your plans or dreams of a vineyard? That way we can all follow along with it easier as you gain answers to your questions and then maybe begin planting.


I will give you better information as you move along and gain a better idea for where you want to go in this adventure.


One thing I will say is that you won't likely be making Cab Sauvignon and White Zinfandel wine from grapes you grow. You can make some of them in a similar style, but those grapes won't grow well and survive in NE Ohio.


----------



## peaches9324

ok sounds good and it would be much easier for me too..but how would I start my own thread?




and is there a way to get around the picture resizer on my windows vista?
thanks


----------



## grapeman

I started you a thread called Peaches Vineyard - we can change the name if you want.


You will need a windows Vista resizer. Do a Google search and you will probably get links to some. Maybe someone who uses Vista can tell you what they do.


----------



## grapeman

Just a bit of an update on what I've been up to this week.


I have been busy getting the balance of the vines covered with bird netting after doing some last minute canopy management. The weather has been great, but I've been busy with both day jobs. The sun is setting sooner, so there isn't a lot of time.


I got my electric motor to add onto the crusher destemmer and after some researching, I found how to mount it on the unit. I picked up the steel to make a mounting plate yesterday. If it rains tomorrow, I will drill the plate and mount the motor. I will then need to bet another pulley, attach it to the destemmer shaft and then get a belt for it. The motor came with an attached cord and switch, so that simplifies it.


This coming week I will start taking weekly samples of the grapes, especially the ones in my research plot. Either Thursday or Friday I am expecting Tim Martinson to pay a visit. He is the head extension agent for the NYS grape program, based in the Cornell system. Tim is coming up to the region again to see what we are doing here with the Cold Climate Grapes. I hope to send him home with a few samples of thewines we make around here.


All for now. Sorry no pictures this time.


----------



## Wade E

Sounds great Rich! Motor, are you getting lazy?


----------



## grapeman

Yes Wade I am. I tore a bunch of stuff all up in my upper shoulder a while back and don't think the old shoulder could crank very well for very long. Putting up netting didn't help it any.


----------



## Wade E

I hear you there Rich, I hear you there!


----------



## grapeman

I got the motor mount finished up. I drilled it and painted it black. I also welded a couple reinforcing bolts on it where the half inch bolt goes through for a hinge. Here are a few pictures of how it goes for anyone who would like to convert a manual crusher/destemmer to electric. This one is a 1 H.P. motor that runs on 110V. The driver pulley is 2 inch and the driven is 6 inches. It should work a whole lot easier just flipping a switch rather than cranking the handle.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Pretty darn cool there Appleman. Won't be too long and you'll have acres to process. Even with two strongshouldes that would be too big a job to do manually. Just curios. Did you figure out how to retrofit or does the manufacturer havehow to details?


----------



## grapeman

I asked around Bonnie. George doesn't have any manuals or pictures. I asked on another forum and got a fe ideas. Then I asked for pictures and one guy had something very similar only upside down from mine. I did a mockup with cardboard, bought the steel and built the motor mount. Just standard off the shelf pulleys and belt. I will try to build a shield for the pulleys and belts when I get time this winter.


I think the manufacurers are missing the boat by not offering these components after the initial sale. I probably spent more than I would have buying from the manufacturer- but it's worth it to me at this point.


----------



## AlFulchino

talented!


----------



## Wade E

Great job Rich, looks like stock item on there!



Now you just need to get Tim Allen over there for more power! Ar Ar Ar!


----------



## rrawhide

Good job Rich -

LOOKS PROFESSIONAL!!!!!

Many happy crushings

rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

I am quite excited this evening. I was at Willsboro today sampling all 25 varieties of grapes for brix and pH. I pulled the samples from the nets and bagged them in labled bags. When I was done there I came home and ran the tests on all of them. They are still lagging behind normal, so I suspect they will be less desireable this year but should be workable. That's part of the fun of winemaking!


Anyway, all the testing got me in the mood to start doing weekly samples of the grapes at home in the SARE Project area. I pulled the Frontenac and LaCrosse before it got too dark. There is a check, shoot thinned and cluster thinned of each of the 3 involved varieties- 18 in all when I get the rest tomorrow. I ran the Frontenac to see what kind of differences there might be. The 4 Arm kniffen are all in gerneral riper looking than the VSP- the opposite of what everyone else expected. My excitement comes from the fact that on the low end of the scale, the VSP Check came in at a brix of 14 and pH of 2.88. The same check in 4 4 Arm kniffen was a brix of 17.4 with pH of 2.83 - almost 3 points higher!


I'll just summarize it - but you can see the differences!


Frontenac Brix pH


4 Arm Kniffen - Shoot Thinned - 19.03.03
4 Arm Kniffen - Cluster Thinned - 18.2 2.88
4 Arm Kniffen -Check-17.4 2.83



VSP - Shoot Thinned - 17.0 2.83
VSP - Cluster Thinned -16.2 2.88
VSP -Check-14.0 2.88




These are huge differences especially in a bad year like this and may mean the difference between ripening a crop and not. I expect the yields to be very similar, but will know for sure when I harvest.


I will get the Leon Millot samples tomorrow and then run the LaCrosse and Leon Millot and see what the differences are there.


----------



## AlFulchino

less shoots are providing more natural sunlight in for ripening and photosynthesis....more balanced light around the leaves and fruit

and i think that that supercedes cluster thinning *only*...

apprarently *good light* matters more

the success of the 4 arm versus vsp may be attributable to a vine being generally more able to have the opportunity to be more vigorous and thrive.....since the hybrids *want* to be vigorous we may need to *let them* rather than try to make them similar to what we see in stressed climates and regions......in other words just let them be what they generally want to be......

scott henry trellissing has worked for me...although vsp would make my life easier...i am doing a side by side.....and of course some vines waht to be a top wire cordon....nothing you can do about that

great news...thanks for sharing


----------



## grapeman

I got some more bottling done this weekend. I was able to do about 200 bottles of white wines yesterday and about 120 bottles of red wine today. The whites were NY 76 wine- a muscat flavored wine with good acids and Vignoles. Both of them are tasting vey nice. I also got some Frontenac Gris bottled up. It has a nice spicy flavor to it.


The red wine today was Leon Millot. I had two batches of it. The blend was better than either, so that's how I bottled it. It makes a very nice table wine. it is slightly oaked and has a nice finish. 


I also racked several more whites, added final k-meta and stabilized including Chardonel. That one is really nice. I experimented around trying to decide how to finish them off. Normally LaCosse is a bit thin and plain. I did a malolactic ferment on it this year and I must say it is pretty darned good as is. I tried combinations of all kinds of wine to decide how to blend for next weekends bottling. 


I tried the Noiret today for the first time in months and Wow- it has really come into it's own. I have a couple gallons of GR-7, by itself it is a bit plain with good color. It blends in really well with the Noiret, so I will blend those two together.


Alll in all, it was a good productive weekend. I even was able to get some carboys freed up for filling back up soon.


----------



## grapeman

Things have been hectic trying to prepare for and finally begin harvest both at home and at Willsboro. 


I have been running a bit late in getting some things posted. I actually had to set up for a photo for the press today so I took a picture of my wines with their medals. Here it is:


----------



## AlFulchino

people read from the top down...put the gold medal certs at the top  congratulations


----------



## grapeman

That's the way I had it Al, but I arranged it better for the photo like it is with a gold on either side. I put this together in 15 minutes for the local press reporter, so don't get too analytical on me


----------



## AlFulchino




----------



## Wade E

I think the 2 reds would have looked better centered between the whites.


----------



## Dean

Congrats on the wins!

I wish I had a crusher/destemmer (from the other pics). I've just got a crusher and have to remove stems by hand.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Quality Grapes into Quality Wines. Way to go Rich.


----------



## Joanie

Congrats on the wins and making headlines again!


----------



## OilnH2O

I was thinking maybe asymmetrical - first a red... then a white... then two reds... uh... maybe I'd better stop now...


----------



## grapeman

Geeze guys, all I did was line them up and take a darned picture for all of you so you could see them since folks had asked for a picture earlier. When you all get a bunch of medals, arrange them however you want! Next time I guess I better hire a publicist and wine bottle decorator...........or what the heck ever you would call it!


----------



## Wade E

HeHeHe! Love ya man!


----------



## grapeman

OK, here is a picture I didn't take so the composition might be better, but it only shows one wine. This was included in the local paper for a story.







I finished up with the harvest at Willsboro yesterday. Today I need to process the other 5 wines from there (or at least the grapes for the wine). Then tomorrow I need to press the whites from these and last weeks one remaining unpressed red.

After that, it's on to my own harvest. Yee Ha!


----------



## Waldo




----------



## BonnieJoy

Rich, Now that you've got a close up &amp; I cansee it better, I really love your label.


----------



## Wade E

When I come up there in 2 weeks Ill arrange them correctly for you!


----------



## rrawhide

Yeh Rich


----------



## grapeman

I have begun my grape harvest for 2009 in earnest now. Today I had a helper and after the weather got above freezing, we picked for a few hours and ended up with about a half ton- mostly Frontenac. This came off 2 rows of year old vines or an average of about 17 pounds per vine. I also picked the remainder of the Steuben - a couple hundred pounds. They averaged about 12 pounds apiece in their third year. I will get a few pictures tomorrow before I crush them. I figure I will crush in the morning before it thaws again. It has been just below freezing mornings lately- just enough to frost the leaves. I got some pictures of the grapes after unnetting a few today to pick. The leaves look so sick because they have frozen a bit by now.

Steuben on the vine



















On to Fronetnac
Dan helping out


























More to follow


----------



## Wade E

Those look great Rich!


----------



## AlFulchino

awesome


----------



## dragonmaster42

Those are some pretty looking clusters of grapes.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Beautiful Bounty, Rich.


----------



## Scott B

WOW!!!!! looks Great!


----------



## AlFulchino

i did note that you got your nets up.....i never was able to get mine up


----------



## Wade E

Are you covered in snow Rich? We are getting some snow as I type and my yard is covered already!


----------



## grapeman

No snow yet Wade and I hope you keep it there. It's cold enough picking with flurries flying!


I got all the nets up Al and I am glad I did. Yesterday I scared a huge flock of blackbirds away a couple times. They would turn the sky black and I could hear them over the radio blasting away.


The Frontenac we picked yesterday that I gave Dan were 1.090 or 23 brix when Dan crushed them and tested - not bad for 3 year old vines producing over 5 tons to the acre.




I will have some interesting pictures and data when I get time to complile the data from my SARE Grant research with canopy management and training systems. I picked the Frontenac part of the trial today. I counted the clusters and weighed each vine. I also took a sample of each panel block so this makes 4 for the fall to compare. I will be picking the Leon Millot and LaCrosse and compiling those also. The Frontenac is most striking, but man what a difference it is. One treatment gives greater brix, less acid and a 60 % greater yield with much less work during the growing season! Some vines yielded more than 30 pounds with greater brix and less acid than ones yielding 17 pounds. How's that for a difference - and requireing less work to boot. The clusters were well spread out, a dark black color with bright red juice compared to tangled skinny clusters with many pink to light red grapes and a bit of botrytis here and there where they were touching bad.


I'm excited by the preliminary results!


----------



## grapeman

Here is a cluster from a three year old Frontenac on the left on VSP. On the right or below if it wraps if a year old Frontenac cluster on 4 Arm Kniffen -it is about twice as big on average. 













Notice the looseness of the cluster. These had much better air movement around the berries and they got much higher brix and less acid as well as being totally disease free and clean of any rots.


----------



## AlFulchino

rich you have three pictures...are we comparing picture 3 versus 1 and 2?

the results sound impressive


----------



## AlFulchino

also what is the average weight of clusters w both methods?


----------



## grapeman

2 and 3 are the same cluster just one showing up a bit closer. I haven't tabulated those statistics yet. It seems I am still a bit busy. I need to pick and weigh the third variety tomorrow. I have been picking and processing steady for a week now. Then I need to start pressing reds, again. The real figures will need to wait a few weeks, but they will come. I spent all day today crushing and pressing. Dang, I think I will need a bladder press soon. It takes so long pressing tons with the screww press that sometimes I get de-pressed, but realize it needs doing so I press on.


----------



## AlFulchino

i hear ya...we spoke of the same thing here today..when you routinely press tons the ratchet press has its tiresome moments...and you really cannot go past 2/3's full even on a 45# press or else it just leaves too much juice in there.

we have one more pressing of reds to do next week and we are done...all is harvested

i will be waiting on your info vis-a0vis the two trellis systems...i am curious about something.....you have a difference in the age of the vines....i am wondering what your cluster count was on each style and IF THAT had an effect on the cluster a size of your younger frontenac vine and the brix and acid level...thoughts on that?


----------



## grapeman

Al, the trial vines were the same age. I just didn't have a picture of the VSP Frontenac handy at the time so I showed you the three year old. I can tell you there is a significant size difference between the 4 arm and the VSP. I compared them as closely as possible, being in the same block and same row. I know many feel the VSP should give better grapes, but I found at least in this case, the 4 arm gave a much higher yield of higher quality grapes. Let me tell you it is challenging making a single batch of wine using grapes with so much variation in them. 


So far all I can tell you about the LaCrosse part of the trial is that the 4 arm yielded just double the TWC- makes sense. The juice is very similar in brix and acid. I will take twice the yield of equal quality any day. 


Hopefully I can get all the Leon Millot in tomorrow. As an observation of them I can tell you the yield is obviously higher and the berries twice as big with 4 arm, resultin in a much larger cluster and I am assuming higher yield.


This has been a fun project and the results striking and somewhat surprising. Just don't read too much into a single year trial with limited replication. I will say that I believe the trial justifies continuation and expansion.


----------



## AlFulchino

thanks for the clarification......its all great information......good luck as you finish up this yr


----------



## OilnH2O

Just my 2 cents -- everything looks great. It is fun to follow the progress. And, _I very much appreciate_ your taking time out of the pressing/crushing to post these pic's. 

Thank you!





Dave


----------



## Catrys

I just finished reading this thread from beginning to end (not all in one sitting, of course



). I am so impressed by your vineyard, Appleman. And, to think you do it all while having a separate day job and the work at Willsboro. Amazing!


----------



## grapeman

Thank you for reading Catrys. I hope you learned a thing or two along the way. If nothing else maybe you learned the most important winemaking task- Patience. In this case patience a nd persistance to get through all of it! Lately I have been doing a lot of work behind the scenes with making wine from this years crop.


----------



## xanxer82

I may have to give you a call when I'm setting up my own vineyard.
 Great thread, it's fulll of useful information.


----------



## kvelkov

I've been reading this thread for a few months. I think I've gone through the whole thing twice at this point. It
's amazing the amount of useful information one can find in it. I think it already needs an index page and maybe a table of contents!


----------



## grapeman

Thanks for the comments guys. I realize it has grown quite large and may be hard to find things in. I had the idea a year or so ago to shrink a copy down and delete all the replies making it smaller and easier to navigate. I got too much negative feedback about me trying to make it all about me, which was never the intent, so I deleted the post.


----------



## Catrys

I definitely did learn a thing or two...or possibly 200... while reading this thread. My family has been tossing around the idea of planting some vines, and this really helps me understand the kind of dedication and patience required with a vineyard.


----------



## grapeman

It has been a while since I posted here so I figured I would update the post a bit.


Since I last posted here, I have gotten preliminary approval from the Town to proceed with a small Farm Winery here. I am remodeling my old barns to accomodate the winery and it is a lot of work because the barns were for a dairy. My current mini-winery is in the old Milkroom of the barn because it was semifinished off and had running water.


My wine for this year is in there while I work on the future winery. It continues to age and clear and has gotten too cold to finish up mlf so that will finish in the spring. Things are cold stabilizing right now and the whites are getting quite sparkling for the most part.


Yesterday and today I framed in a room for bottle storage prior to sale. It will hold about 1500-2000 cases of finished wine. The room next to that will begin as a multipurpose room and may end up as a tasting room. The room behind that will be the winery for the next few years and then be for bulk aging in barrels or flextanks. 


One of these days I will get a few pictures, but this time of year progress is slow because I need to wait for warmer days here and there to work.


----------



## AlFulchino

how do you plan to heat?


----------



## Runningwolf

Appleman, just one disappointing fact. I wish I was near by to (voluntarily) help you along and learn as you grow. The whole process from farm to winery is very interesting. Maybe your all purpose room could be a meeting room for a local wine club. The price...helping out on bottling day!


----------



## Wade E

I didnt know you could stop MLF and then finish again later,well figure that can happen like any other fermentation but is it easier to restart MLF then a normal fermentation? Does that mean you are going to keep the S02 levels down or not add any at all till then?


----------



## grapeman

Wade the cold weather renders the mlf inactive and it just resumes when the temps come back up in the spring. I don't bring the S02 levels up until it has finished, but the cold weather keeps the nasties at bay also. Al I am just using the little heater to keep the wine just above freezing. In the future I will put in some type of a more permanent heat.


----------



## grapeman

Winter is still going strong here, well actually it just began about a motnth ago. I get antsy this time of year being cooped up in the office most of the day. What do you guys do to outwait winter?


----------



## grapeman

At the risk of putting an incomplete site out there, I am posting a link to my website I am in the process of developing for my vineyard and soon to be winery. It is just in it's infancy and does not have any real content yet. I am just trying to get the functionality going. I would appreciate any looking around you may do to see what you think of the overall structure and additions you would like to see so I might incorporate them. 


I have flash buttons on the top left and a menu with buttons on the side. I'm not sure if I want both.


There are a few pictures here and there, some of them are stock photos and some are mine which I will replace as I go.


So here it is:


Hid-In-Pines Vineyard


----------



## vcasey

I suppose if I said going to the beach that may not be what you want to hear..... well when the weather is warm!


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich it has the makings of a great site..i like what you have done so far....and Flash is my next step as soon as i teach myself ( some day ) 

as for what i do in the winter...who has free time ?


----------



## grapeman

vcasey I think the beach sounds like a great idea, but I think even you might get a bit cool doing that right now!


Al how is the speed for you? It has so much backend stuff that I think it would be non-functional for dialup, but that should be a small market now.


----------



## vcasey

Looks really nice and I thought you were just sitting around looking out the window.


----------



## AlFulchino

my site would also be too slow for dial up...and by the way...remember this...your website, like mine will ALWAYS be incomplete with something new needing to be done all the time

eventually you need to have it say hipvineyards.com and lose the abc drafting....no one will remember that...you should be able to have it point to the site even by using your same server

***


----------



## vcasey

appleman said:


> vcasey I think the beach sounds like a great idea, but I think even you might get a bit cool doing that right now!
> 
> 
> Al how is the speed for you? It has so much backend stuff that I think it would be non-functional for dialup, but that should be a small market now.



No kidding it was it was 32 at 5:30 this morning and 30 2 hours later when the dog insisted he really had to go out. I refuse to look at the Gulf's water temps - Brrrrrr

I had no problem navigating around the site everything moved quickly from page to page.


----------



## grapeman

Al I spent an hour last evening trying to get the site to point to the shortened URL. When I set up the subdomain I am sure I did it wrong because it isn't showing right on the host server end. I will have a friend check it out when I get closer to spreading the site around. The other sub domain I have names and redirects correctly. The DNS servers are set to redirect, but it still isn't working right. I also have hipvineyard.net and hipvineyard.us registered. 


What about the "Bottle of Wine" song and player? Anybody notice that and does the volume come in at 25% like it is supposed to?


----------



## AlFulchino

the sound level is the same as you woul dplay on your tv in a living room.....if you meant it to be backgroundthen i would say its not at 25%...but then again everyone's speakers will beset to a different level


----------



## grapeman

It is supposed to initially be set to 25% volume, but maintains any changes made previously to the settings. If you look at the little Victrola player in the upper left side of the Home Page, there is a little volume control on it that slides up and down. If you move the mouse over it, the number it is set at should appear. I just checked, click on the speaker and then the slide comes up.


----------



## grapeman

I have gotten the Photo Album controls behaving better now. They were pretty crude and some parts not functioning right. I made some changes to the code within it and now it is behaving better. The formatting is better in it and the thumbnails are now highlighted as to what is playing. If you hover the mouse above it, the thumbnail enlarges some to preview it. I think I will make the preview sizes a bit larger than the 60x60 px default.


----------



## rrawhide

lookin good Rich

I can just imagine the hours that you have spent on this venture so far

Good luck and keep us posted.

rrawhide


----------



## Goodfella

Hey Rich, 


Your site is looking really good!!! 


Al....


I love the pictures on your site!!! There is some really cool ones


----------



## grapeman

It is just about mid-winter here now in the North Country. How is the weather and cabin fever treating everyone? 


Here December was pretty cold but not brutal like the previous year. It made it to about -5F. Snowfall has been pretty much normal and we are still in the dry slot probably for another 3-4 weeks and then the snows will pick up again. 


This past week or so has been fairly mild with temps in the low 30's just about night and day. It gets a bit cooler at night than the day, but not bad.


During this warmer period, I racked about 20 carboys of wine this weekend, it was quite apparent that the new Italian carboys are indeed bigger than the Mexican carboys. As I went from one kind to another, I had to be careful which I emptied to refill, because I either had too much for one or not enough for the other. Luckily it worked quite well as I was racking off bentonite and acid, so I was losing some. It all worked out alright and I ended up with just a bit less than I began with- probably only lost a couple gallons altogether. 



I did 10 yesterday and another 10 today. I did them in the morning and some carpentry work in the new winery in the afternoons. I may play hookey from drafting tomorrow and do another 10 and then some more carpentry in the afternoon. Actually I only have a bit more framing and then insulating the locked tax paid storage room.


I never lack for wine........ I needed to sample the wine as I racked to make sure of no off flavors etc so I typically have a couple ounces from each carboy. The Steuben and Buffalo are unique and quite spicey. I did some Sabrevois in a blush and WOW is it ever delicious. Today I did some LaCrescent and St. Pepin. The St Pepin will be the best I have made of it so far, bursting with citrusy aromas and full of apple, pear,pineapple and grapefruit-outstanding. The LaCrescent is great as usual, but a bit high in acid. I may need to drop that a bit more.


Man it is hard to do my job, but somehow I struggle through.










So that's what I do to keep from getting cabin fever.


----------



## fivebk

Rich, By now most everyone knows what kind of winter I have had, so I won't bring that up. The weather here has calmed down for the time being. Days are in the 30s with the nights just slightly cooler.The snow is gradually melting and things will get sloppy here this week because we are to get 3 days worth of rain ( still better than snow ).

I have been steam juicing different fruits that I collected last year. I have 6 gal.Cherry, 1 1/2 gal. Elderberry, 1 1/2 gal Blueberry, and 15 gal.of Pear. 

I have a 6 gal. batch of peach wine started that is starting to clear. I will start a Pear or Pear/Pineapple , but not untill I bottle something. I HAVE NO EMPTY 5 OR 6 GALLON CARBOYS



I do have a 3 gallon carboy though and have been trying to come up with a recipe for a port. I'm thinking maybe a Chocolate/Cherry Mmmmmmmm !!!!!

I have 5 gal Mulberry, 20 gal Apple, 6 gal Plum, 6 gal Leibfraumilch, 6 gal Castel De Papa, and 6 gal Blueberry Melomel bulk aging.

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Here are some pictures of some of the wines going on in the winery. The first one shows some of the Willsboro wines. I racked some of the acid crystals today. The one going is the St. Pepin. As you can see, I was using the old fashioned way- just an auto siphon.




















Here are a couple of the new locked storage room framed out.















You can't see much from the pictures , the room is about 10x12 feet and I am insulating it today to keep the temps more uniform all year while in cases.


----------



## AlFulchino

inch by inch

step by step

slowly but surely

you will remember all these stages unlike anyone else can truly appreciate


----------



## vcasey

It has been a learning process for all of us to read about the process the 2 of you are going through as well. We have a local brewer who is documenting his experience of opening up a craft brewery and his blog has been ....... entertaining.


----------



## Goodfella

How is your website coming along Appleman? 














(Edit) I just found the link after making this post. It is looking really good!!!


----------



## grapeman

I have not done much work with it Goodfella. It is so heavily templated that it is ill-behaved in some browsers especially Firefox, so I may scrap that one. I have been working on another version to see if I can get what I want without so many formatting issues. I had taken the link out of my signature so not too many people would be looking at the mess.... I will post a link to the new one when I get it closer to being done- it is functional now but I need more content.


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich...i use Dreamweaver and then we use StartLogic to host......we dont use templates and yes my site could be better...but so far so good


----------



## Goodfella

I think both of your sites look good. I built a website for this hobby. I used intuit site builder. It has been really easy to use, BUT, it might not do the things you need (or are going to need) it to do.


----------



## grapeman

OK, I have redone the website to make it less complex. This is still rudimentary, but it is a lot less flaky than the other one with all the bloat in it. Does this one open better and display correctly for everyone. Content is still minimal, but I will add to it when I see if it all works alright.
Use the link at the bottom of the page in my signature line to open it.
Thanks


----------



## xanxer82

That site is looking nice. I recommend cropping out the date stamp on your images though. It'll have a cleaner look.
Also I was checking out the Products tab saw you sell grape vines.
Might have to order some cuttings from you


----------



## AlFulchino

wow, Rich, really looking good


----------



## grapeman

Thanks Al, does it all load OK? 


xanxer, I will eventually clean up the pictures of dates, position, etc, but for now I was just trying to get some stuff on there for testing purposes. What do you guys think of the map in the background? If you are at least 1280x1024 resolution the map will show with a star at my location. If the screen is smaller than that, it won't all show. I can't figure out how to dynamically resize the background, so this seems to work OK. I may end up just eliminating that anyways-haven't decided yet.


----------



## fivebk

Rich the site looks great. I had no trouble with it loading


BOB


----------



## Waldo

I had no trouble loading it but I did have problems figuring out just who your employees are.....By their names i might think they were a bunch of illegals


----------



## grapeman

Waldo said:


> I had no trouble loading it but I did have problems figuring out just who your employees are.....By their names i might think they were a bunch of illegals





Ya got me Waldo

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet. They are a lively bunch, and work cheap, but man I need a translator......






Ya found a page I didn't inactivate or custoize


----------



## xanxer82

It looks good my friend. Loaded right up.


----------



## Wade E

Yep, loaded very quickly for me also and I like this one better then the others I have seen. Is that Google Earth shot?


----------



## grapeman

It is a Google shot of upstate NY. I clipped enough to show the surrounding area and set it to semi-transparent to tone it down a bit.
That is also Google in the ciontact screen. I like it because anyone can click on the option to get driving directions from anywhere right on my contact page.


----------



## Joanie

Rich, check your calendar page. All I get is the source info.

As for dates on photos, you can get rid of those on your camera.

It looks great!


----------



## grapeman

Yep, the calendar page has been a pain. I wanted it to include an actual calendar and possibly have it update with actual events, but the software uses asp (active server pages) and the current server doesn't support it, so unles your computer has asp Framework on it, you get that code. Good to know it shows that woay for you. I wanted a wide variety of computers testing it. More to follow on that.


I know how to get rid of the date on the camera, but I use it to document the shots in and around the vineyard, so I use it. The few on the website I don't want it on, I just get rid of it in Photoshop.


Thanks for checking it out. A lot more work to do with actual content and fixing or deactivating pages.


----------



## AlFulchino

my opinion only Rich...calendar pages are ok...but since you have to
enter info for whatever the event is anyways, it is easier to just have
a page listing the actual dates and the upcoming events...and also show
hours of op and such...its more concise...quicker and easier to read
and can be seen on one screen w/o the need to scroll


----------



## grapeman

That's right Al as long as you remember to go into the web software and put in the event and continually update it. Check out what I have there now. I can do this right from my Google page and it is updated automatically. I put in a fake GroundHog Day event for test purposes. 


Oops got a glitch here. Click the Calendar tab twice. I will fix it soon.


If I decide to keep the page as is I will edit the events below as needed. From experience, these get forgotten and you end up with events that were 6 months ago and don't list the current ones.


----------



## Goodfella

Very nice Appleman.


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich...a question:

from your website you have for the Frontenac for example the following,

4 AK Cluster Thinned
</span>29.1
</span>10.05 </span>20.0
</span>3.14
</span>15.2
</span>$900 </span>
</span>$9045
and
4 AK Check
</span>29.2
</span>10.07 </span>18.8
</span>3.04
</span>15.3
</span>$800 </span>
</span>$8056

how did you determine and justify the difference in dollar value?


----------



## grapeman

Al that is one of those things that is arbitrarily set - and you need some break points. If you read the explanation of the price differences it states break points where juice above those values is set higher than anything below it. 


From the report:
For comparison I assign a value of $1000 per ton for grapes of minimum brix level of 21, $900 for brix between 19.5 and 21, $800 over 18 but under 19.5 and $500 for a brix of under 18. Actual price differences will vary from area to area and variety to variety, but this shows how price drops for lower sugar and higher acids.












So that is how I came up with the price difference. Thegrapes with higher brix and lower acidsare easier for the winemaker to work with so typically are priced higher. 


So is there a big diffence in the value of those two between 4AK? No, but look at the difference between 4 AK and VSP- of any treatment! It's hard to ignore this, and if it holds true in other years, on other farms and soils, it could be significant. I know I want to study it further. Anytime I can grow more grapes, of a higher quality, with less work and input, I'm all for that! It makes my job easier and more profitable.


I think the biggest thing I want to show with this study is that there can be significant differences and there needs to be more research work done to determine the most profitable way to handle these cold hardy grapes.


----------



## AlFulchino

thanks....i just wanted to verify

as for 4Ak and VSP, that is understandable...i use scott henry...since we are talking 4 arms on each, and assuming sites are vigorous, as are hybrids, then this should account for much of the increase in yield, dont you think?


----------



## grapeman

Absolutely Al. That was my assumption. There are those that tell you to cut back on cordon or cane length and yield to increase quality. At least in this case, that just didn't hold true. Frontenac or LaCrescent(examples) are not vinifera grapes and bring a whole new set of rules to their table.


How is the Scott Henry system to maintain? Is it labor intensive?


I still need to make a final decision on my last training method for the trial planting. I will definitely have VSP and TWC in it. I also want at least one type with 4 arms of some type. I can either have 4 reps with 3 training systems or 3 reps of 4 training systems. Rather than a straight 4 arm kniffen, I have come up with another system to try out. It will be a modified 4 arm system similar to GDC, but without as much spread and the south side will be two feet lower and 14 inches to the side of the upper set of canes or cordons. This will allow 2 wires with shoots hanging down, yet spread them apart from each other a bit more. More on this system at some future date. I don't know if this has been done before, but I am going to give it a shot and see what happens.


----------



## AlFulchino

scott henry has been good so far....although i have to over time make some changes...some of my vines tend to want to trail....ie brianna....so its a bit tough to do the SH or even vsp when the vine wants to drop and trail....so i may have to install more catch wires...or change the system for one or two varieties

the vigor of most of the vines lends itself to doing any time of 4 arm system

i did set up about 300 vines last yr to go VSP because i was maxing out my effort and getting pretty tired in the vineyard...BUT as this is a new yr, i would like to do those also in the SH and will train them that way as well

the biggest thing for anyone to remember is to give the fruiting zone room as well as the shoots....and definietly w a four arm system...you have to let the plant photosynthesize and have air flow..and sunlight...its all a balance.....but its sort of like flossing teeth.....bad things happen where their is no room, sun and air ...each cluster is like a child...needs certain things


----------



## BonnieJoy

Very Nice Website. Can't wait to drive east to support you &amp; Al.


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## grapeman

I have been working on the website some more today. It's the same thing but I'm startting to clean the pages up a bit.


I have put menu items for our local Association- Lake Champlain Wines. There is a button for the forum, which I started. I also have a button for the LCW-Website. That is a false start someone else began. Another person and I are working on the new website for that. You won't find anything useful there yet, but in the future we hope to have a lot of good information there on growing grapes and making wines out of Cold Hardy Grapes.


Again, just hit the link at the bottom of my signature or one of these links. They are all forwarded to the site and I will soon get rid of the reference in the url to my drafting site (need to update that soon also).


www.hipvineyard.com
www.hipvineyard.us
www.hipvineyard.net


----------



## rrawhide

Great website Rich - I am impressed.

Good luck and great success!!

rick


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## grapeman

appleman said:


> I got an e-mail today that was pleasantly received. Last November I prepared a grant proposal for studying improving quality of cold hardy wine grapes through training systems and canopy management. The idea is to study the feasability of this improvement to see if the quality of the harvested grapes can be improved to increase the quality and thus the value of the wine made from these grapes. I was hoping this could get some funding through the SARE Grant system for Sustainable Agriculture.
> My project was one of 23 out of 77 approved for funding. WooHooo!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will help me with expenses to gather this valuable information for others. I love compiling the data collected from my research. I will be performing this work in my vineyard at my home, gathering harvest weights and other pertinent data as well as recording growth stages, etc during the growing season. I don't want to bore anyone too much with the details, but as I gather this information I will share with others here- probably in a new post.










This year there were 58 farmers applying for this type grant through the NE SARE program. There were 27 applicants this year approved for funding. I got the e-mail today, a few weeks earlier this year than last. and I GOT APPROVED ONCE AGAIN






This years grant continues on last year's work and will include additional vines in the trial to give further validation to the trial. I am also establishing the trellis in the new plantings from last year and will use that new plot to show proper procedures for initial training systems. In light of hard economic times across the country I feel blessed to once again receive this grant.


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## AlFulchino

NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## peaches9324

CONGRATS! appleman can't wait to read your posts on this!


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## grapeman

I have added more pictures into the Photo Gallery of my Website. I only have active pages in the Photo Gallery now, so if it is listed it has about 20 pictures per page. I broke them down to the vineyard, Harvest and the Winery. I will add more as time permits- it takes a while to dig through pictures, find some I want, size them move them and put them into the website. I hope you enjoy them.


Here is a link right to them:

Hid-In-Pines VineyardPhoto Gallery


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## peaches9324

BEAUTIFUL!


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## BonnieJoy

Congrats on the grant, Richard. Looking forward to following your results. Keep up the great work.


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## fivebk

Congrats Rich on the grant!!!! 

BOB


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## admiral

Rich, congratulations on the grant. They know a quality operation when they see it.


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## grapeman

Spring feels like it is in the air this year! I keep waiting for the cold weather to come back and the snow to rear it's ugly head, but the next week we will continue to see mild temps mid 40's to mid 50's. I like it. I may even go out and begin the monumental task of pruning 2000 grape vines.


I am expecting my new 3 compartment stainless steel sink to arrive tomorrow. That will get mounted in the current winery. I made room last weekend by moving the 75 cases of wine I had stored in the corner and moving 14 -5 gallon carboys full of Frontenac wine over to that corner.


I will soon be busier than a beaver trying to juggle all the jobs again for the year and I wouldn't have it any other way.


As I posted elsewhere, I sent 11 bottles over to Vt for judging. I hate to spend the money on that, but it gives me an idea what the masses like in wine. I have my favorites, but I need to keep reminding myself that I need to produce what the masses like because soon I will be producing for the masses.


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## fivebk

As soon as you start selling to the masses I know someone that would like to start consuming !!!!!

BOB


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## grapeman

I stood up the sink today after putting the legs on it and taking the protective film off it. Overall it is a great sink. It came complete with the faucet on it (I just temporarily stuck it on there to show it), drain baskets and even an allen wrench to tighten the set screws for the legs (included 2 extra in case any get lost). So far I'm very satisfied with it and look forward to using it soon. 












I then went out and began pruning. These are Frontenac and I just rough pruned. I will go back soon and take out the extra spurs after I weigh the prunings to see how many buds to retain. The first pictures are the VSP and then the last is 4 Arm Kniffen.


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## AlFulchino

wow that sink looks fabulous

but did you have to beat me to the punch on pruning? i wont start till april


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## Runningwolf

Looks awesome! Reminds me I need to get out and prune my apple trees.


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## grapeman

The weather was just too warm not to get out for a while. I like to start out pruning a few hours at a time to keep my old hands from cramping up too badly. Still plenty left to do.


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## Wade E

The vineyard and the sink look awesome Rich!


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## Waldo

runningwolf said:


> Looks awesome! Reminds me I need to get out and prune my apple trees.






Reminds me......... I need to eat my prunes this morning







Congrats on the grant buddy


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## peaches9324

appleman my nephew brought outsome post this morning and asked how many I would need. I didn't have an answer for him cuz I wasn't sure of the spaceing b/t post. I noticed in your pics you have at least 2 vines planted b/t post is that correct? I'm sure we had went over this befor but could not find the info I was in search of.How far apartare your post and how many vines b/t them? and again thank you!


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## grapeman

I put either 3 or 4 vines between posts. If they are closer spacing go with4 if a bit farther use 3. You want the posts 20-25 feet between them. I also use bamboo stakes at each vine for training to get them a bit straighter until they get some size to them- a bit of lead in the pencil of sorts. 


I need to go pick up the 300 posts I have for the vines I planted last year. I never got them in last year and relied on the bamboo alone. I may need a bit more than that, but it will get me going. A logger is doing up 300 white cedar for me and he called this AM to say tomorrow at noon would be good. They are about one third the price of manufactured posts so with this many, I opted for frugality.


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## xanxer82

nicely done!


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## peaches9324

Richard lucky you!,theres nothing wrong with being frugal! Unless of course their not treated like the post my nephew had brought to me. The one good thing is they are pine and free. Even though they are free to me I would of much rather go and buy the treated wood. He assures me that they will outlast my life. What is it that I can purchase to treat the lumber with? So I can possibly apply it without his knowledge - don't want to affend him in any way cuz hedoes havea big heart! And I know he is planning on clamping the wire instead of running it threw the posts. And I'm a perfectionest when it comes to one of my projects. I'm a do it right the first time kinda gal So if you would be so kind as into explaining the contructing of the wire to the post and theIMPORTANCE of it so that I could possibly print it out and show it to him I would be SSSSSO thankful and appreciate it.The last thing I want is droopy wire!
and thank you once again
and my sincere appologies for being a pain in the forum!




thank you


----------



## grapeman

I got over today and picked up half my posts. I have a 8 x 24 foot trailer I used to haul 12 - 20 bushel bins of apples on, which is about 5 tons of apples. The guy loaded 150 posts on and the load was from end to end and about 3-4 feet high. The tires were really squatted down, more so than the 5 tons of apples would make it. They loaded really easy with the excavator and pallet tines, but unloading took an hour and a half. I unloaded them in my new vineyard a couple hundred yards awaythrough the woods. I spread them into 6 piles, three on each side. There are 20 rows to do. I will go get the rest in a few days. They will go in the main vineyard plot where there will be 12 rows of 36 vines each. 






The posts are generally pretty nice. They do have the bark on, which I will peel as I can. They average well over 6 inches on the small end, with a number of them in the 9-10 inch range. They should outlast me also since I have a limited lifespan - well they do too, but I figure I will be rotted away before they are.









Yes I will be taking pictures and we will be filming some videos of putting the trellising in in a month or so for the local growers association. It will be going on our website for Lake Champlain Wines.This weekend- pruning! We are looking at filming a number of subjects to help beginning growers. Stay tuned.


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## peaches9324

you know I'll be in the audiance! can't wait!


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## grapeman

It was an interesting day today at the vineyard.. Like I said a couple days ago, we held a Pruning Workshop today. We sparsely advertised the event in the local paper in the event calendar and on public radio. It was held from 2:00 until about 4:00 and then we had a wine tasting until about 6:00 PM. It was cold but sunny and 20 degrees more would have been very nice, but we got through it.


Overall we thought it went very well with about 60 people attending. We covered a lot of subject matter and showed a wide variety of pruning for the subject matter. We had several video cameras taping the procedings and hope to put together the video content for our website and forum. The local paper had a reporter in attendance and he took a lot of video and stills during it. It should be good publicity for our growers association.
Andy Farmer was there from Northeastern Vine Supply. I invited him since we had a number of new and potential growers attending.


We tried quite a few wines which seemed to be well received by all. This was the first tasting of cold hardy varieties by many of the attendees and they seemed to enjoy them. It was gratifying that my Leon Millot that placed with Bronze last year (as a semi-finished wine at the time) was enjoyed by many as being better than the fancy Pinot Noir brought by a guest. As always everybody wanted to buy some St. Pepin, which of course I can't sell. I gave a few bottles out as good will and publicity.


Andy brought a bottle of Brianna from a vineyard in Nebraska. I was glad to try that since I have never had it before. I think it will be a great addition to the eventual lineup. 


I wish I had a couple pictures to post, but I was too busy working with the demo to take many. I will post a link to the video when we get it put together.


----------



## AlFulchino

sounds great!


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## Wade E

Sounds very productive my friend.


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## grapeman

Visitors to the Vineyard this AM.

My sister called this AM about 7 and told my wife she had three moose in her back dooryard which is between my two vineyards. I looked out the window and sure as sh*take mushrooms there were three moose! I figure a cow and two calves from last year by the size. They did a loop almost to the road and ran back behind the house. I looked a minute later out the back door and there was the cow standing next to my driveway about 50 feet from the garage.

I went to the office and grabbed the camcorder, but couldn't get them out of the woods to shoot with the cam. I went down a while later into the vineyard and sure enough, they had gone around the edge of the vineyard and into the woods. Holy crappes batman. I hope they don't take up residency. Just so you know I am telling the truth here, I got a few pictures of the tracks. The big one has tracks almost as long as my shoe and wider.


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## grapeman

One more small step on the long sidewalk to my "Bonded Winery". 


Today I went and picked up two bonds to turn in. One goes to the TTB and the other to NYS. They are the Bonds in the "Bonded Winery", so some progress is being made!





















More work is continuing behind the scenes. Wish me luck that I will be in operation this summer!


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## Wade E

All the luck and best wishes here buddy.


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## AlFulchino

you will likely be licensed by the feds in 60 days if you are already at the bond stage...90 at the worst


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## grapeman

That's what I am hoping Al.


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## AlFulchino

have no fear....it appears going into it all that it is really a bigger issue than it all really turns out to be....in the end...if all the paper work is filled out properly they WANT you licensed because it means tax money

i found that went i went thru it that the biggest obstacle in my way was me...thinking it was going to be tough.....worrying myself over nothing

by the way we had Andy Farmer and his wife down our way this past week pruning and taking cuttings from our operation for his operation....good people...and we got to sit down and break bread and enjoy some wine together...they are also both hard workers


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## grapeman

Andy said he had two more vineyards to go help prune this year when he was over a couple weeks ago. I hope you were able to get a bunch done. The weather has taken a turn for the much worse this week. Good luck finishing it up.


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## AlFulchino

12 rows done......34 to go ....ugh and buds are pushing a tad


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## grapeman

I'm just seeing a bit of a push here on the buds- the slightest tinge of green and a bit of swell. At least you have 12 down! The rest will go one at a time until you are done!


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## grapeman

Al with his mention of the .com visitor reminded me that in our group- we have a .com representative for wine. Todd Trzaskos is a member of our Lake Champlain Grape Grower's Association or Lake Champlain Wines for short. He runs Vermont Wine Media.com. and reviews and reports on wine and grape growing. He samples wines from all over the world and sits down to dinner from time to time with expert winemakers. 


Here is a report he did on our Pruning workshop last month. Look around the site. I think he does a pretty decent job.


http://www.vtwinemedia.com/vt_wine_press/?p=567







This morning I went out and finished up pre-budbreak weed control for perennials. I used the Solo Backpack sprayer for applying Roundup wannabe on the small vines so I could control the spray pattern better. I had sprayed some of them yesterday and the larger vines with the spot sprayer on a cart behind the lawn tractor. 


Within the next week I will apply Matrix. That is a broad spectrum weed killer safe for grapes. I could have sprayed it at the same time as the Roundup, but since you use such a small amount, I wanted to see how much water volume it took the spray with those sprayers. The spray rate is 4 ounces per acre- full acre, so that is about 3 acres of banded application under the vines only (3 foot band in 9 feet). It is a good thing it doesn't take a lot, because the stuff costs $300 for 15 ounces!


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## AlFulchino

yikes thats expensive..i have not done any weed control as of yet....right now just letting them suck up any top soil mositure...i will be using makaze ( glyphospate) in the row...and then likely using a cultivator or rotovator in between rows...at some point..let me know how you like Matrix

congratulations on the media exposure!


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## Wade E

"That is a broad spectrum week killer safe for grapes". Does it take a week or only last a week or does it take a week to spray? Bet you didnt think I was watching this thread did ya? Just kidding, thats a lot of dough for just 15 ounces!


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## grapeman

I know I have been saying for quite some time I was getting ready to submit the paperwork for the Farm Winery license. Well it finally happened this AM. I got the last of the paperwork together, went to the post office and mailed the envelope off to the feds. Now it will be scheduled to sit on somebodies desk for two months until I give up waiting and call to check on it at which time the person will say"Yes, it's sitting here on my desk. I will check it right out"?




Then if all the paperwork is there and approved, I can move onto the state.............


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## ibglowin

Whoo Hooo!


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## Runningwolf

Good luck and wishing you a speedy reply!


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## grapeman

I'm making it official. I am calling Budburst officially here today- although some of them hit it yesterday. The record 84 degree temps yesterday pushed them to open in a big way. Today's 77 wasn't that far behind. This on top of snow least Tuesday and Wednesday! Many buds went from a half inch on Saturday to two inches today. Some of the young vines in the nursery grew 4 inches today! I guess I won't be planting them this year. Oh well they were on the small side. Another year will make them healthier in the end.


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## Wade E

Its about time you submitted that stuff you slacker! hehehe Good luck there my friend but Im sure youll do fine and if you send some of that wine to them as Blackmail youll have an even better chance!


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## OilnH2O

Really interesting, Rich, on these dates of "bud break!"


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## AlFulchino

congratulations Rich...all goes well then you will be licensed before harvest

say in touch w them...they are very cordial and very accomodating


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## xanxer82

Congrats Rich  It's exciting to see people on here become "Official".
It gives me hope. Now I just need some suitable farm land and the $$$ to get it haha!


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## grapeman

After snowing on Mothers day, and having several freezes this last week, it has warmed up again. That is pushing the vines to growing pretty well and there is minimal frost damage in the main vineyard. My small one acre expansion vineyard doesn't look as well. They make me kind of ill looking at them. The upper 8 rows are at least half frozen and I'm hoping they grow back alright. The lower 2/3 of the vineyard looks alright with most of the vines pushing growth now. They are mostly St Pepin so they grow a bit later- not always a bad thing with late spring frosts.


I sprayed the complete vineyard this evening with two fungicides that cover different diseases. That will probably be the only spray before bloom in about 3 weeks, maybe a touch less. Early on, I skip rows so they are only sprayed once per row instead of hitting both sides like after more growth.


I felt a bit off yesterday, so I took it a bit easy. I only built a wall on one end of the winery, sheathed it and installed the entry door on that end. Everybody at home was feeling pretty crappy most of the weekend, so I didn't feel bad since I at least worked all day. 


One of these days soon I will snag a few pictures of the vines to show their progress.


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## Wade E

Sorry to hear about the damage and stop slacking on that winery!


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## grapeman

I thought I would give a progress report with some pictures. I know probably everybody is getting sick of my pictures, but just in case anybody wants to see them here they are. They are taking off like rockets with temps in the 80's to low 90's for a number of days now.











I have babies too! Or at least buds!















Once I get the trellising under control I need to train the small vines to that. I also need to get a handle on the weeds- so to speak- maybe a hoe handle. UhOh, I can see the hoe jokes staring up again! Actually the weeds aren't all that bad. I am trying to get the alleys to growing grass so I have been letting the weeds grow. The act as a cover crop for the grass as it establishes unless they get too big.


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## ibglowin

I learn by studying these pictures!

They look great! Almost like distant relatives of sorts!


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## AlFulchino

same here...NO one is tired of seeing pictures..if they say they are then send them my way...i LOVE pictures...more so than most text....things will shape up Rich.......try spray..my tractor is in the shop..thank God its been DRY DRY DRY


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## Wade E

If I see another one of your pictures Why Im going to look at it! Looking good over there Rich.


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## grapeman

Dry? Dry? I don't know what you are talking about Al. We have had about three quarters of an inch of rain in May- actually that was mostly snow! The lawn is as brown as any mid-July in a dry year! I know I should spray for the weeds, but it wouldn't get into the ground without some rain.


Welcome to the desert Northeast.............


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## xanxer82

All the rain is down here in Maryland. Can't keep up with keeping the lawn trimmed. 
Those vines look great Rich!


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## Runningwolf

I love the pictures. Same here with hte rain, I am cutting my grass every four days.


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## ibglowin

It rains at my house every other day from 5:00AM - 6:30AM! 






At least this time of year.


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## grapeman

No rain today, but there are severe thunderstorms predicted to be scattered. The thermometer next to me is reading 102.9 at this moment. The sensor is outside my office on the back wall- out of the sun. The vineyard sensor in a shadebox is reading 96.5. Needless to say I am not out picking rocks this evening!. I racked some wine earlier and that will be it today. It was the warmest I have ever seen it in there at 82 degrees. I had to remove some wine from a dozen carboys before I had an IBGLOWIN Moment! I'm going to need to move the lower catch wires up to home position soon. Some shoots are up past the second set of catch wires!


----------



## ibglowin

I think your finally seeing the heat wave we had on Sunday and the root cause behind......."the incident"






We are back down to normal temps for this time of year (mid 70's)


----------



## Wade E

We got slammed last night with thunder storms with trees down and power outages, nothing tragic at my house but we had 1 heck of a light show last night, I was very tired but cant help to watch stuff like that. Im so glad I dont live near all those tornadoes cause im to enthralled to stay away from that stuff!


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## OilnH2O

Man, I'm feeling jealous! We've had a cold, wet spring and while it seemed we were about the same a few weeks ago, the leaves are not doing well and some plants are still in bud. I'm sure I've lost several vines -- but am waiting to see -- we had a early cold snap last October and I think it got some of the pinots and edelweiss -- all 2 and 3-year old vines, too.


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## grapeman

It cooled down here- to just the perfectly enjoyable range of almost 80 degrees with crisp bright blue skies. Slight possibility of a quick shower tonight. This has been the driest May in my memory- at least it doesn't take a lot of spraying for protection.


----------



## xanxer82

Been cooler than yesterday( in the 90s) stormy and humid.
Can't wait to see more photos


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## AlFulchino

thank goodness, because i was w/o old Johnny Deere for a week


----------



## grapeman

I continued to work on the trellising over the weekend. It is going in behind the house where I planted a training trial vineyard. I worked on getting the wires up for some of the rows. There are four kinds of trellising.
1)Top Wire Cordon
2)Modified Geneva Double Curtain (I call it Schuyler for our town name) of my own design
3)Vertical Shoot Positioning
4)Scott Henry


The Scott Henry and VSP really use up the wire and take longer to run. There are 7 runs of wire per row with themcompared to 2 for TWC and 5 (although it could be 4) for the Schuyler.


While working, I noted yesterday the beginning of bloom here- about a month ahead of lasdt year. The Mn 1200 are blooming like crazy and only 2 years old. I will have my work cut out for me getting rid of them this year. The Marquette- sister to 1200 is almost ready to bloom and the Frontenac are only a few days behind.


This is an exciting and busy time of year.


----------



## Waldo

Got any pictures, info on the vertical shoot positioning


----------



## grapeman

Vertical shoot positioning uses a single or double trunk. You train it upwards to the first wire set around 30-36 inches off the ground. This becomes the fruiting wire. You lay down a cane on both sides of the trunk at or slighly below the wire. Those develop laterals which hopefully go upwards and those become future spurs- trying to get 3-5 inches between them. The next year you prune to 2-3 buds on each spur. Those buds develop into shoots. Each shoot will get 2 or 3 clusters and may require thinning the number of clusters down. The shoots are trained upwards between sets of wires about a foot apart. They get trimmed off if they grow much past the top wire. Many of the pictures I post are of VSP. 










VSP at beginning of season








It will be a while, but I will be trying to cover the trellis types listed here as part of coverage of the training trial.


----------



## Wade E

So how many varietals are you experimenting with using different methods? I know you have figured out some of which work the best for you over there.


----------



## ibglowin

Is that a pic of your vines? 

Very nice indeed!


----------



## grapeman

Wade I have four varieties in that trial with the four types of trellis-each. More would be nice, but I have limited funds to work with. My project is larger than almost all similar trials in the country at university level, without the university funding!


Yes Mike that is a small part of the vines. More to follow. That picture was taken about a week ago and the vines have doubled in size in that week.


----------



## AlFulchino

looking good Rich...we started a small test vineyard at my house today...just five 100 foot rows to check out some possible replacement varieties if the need should arise or maybe to add to production....we have a sickness...i call it a passion


----------



## Waldo

appleman said:


> Vertical shoot positioning uses a single or double trunk. You train it upwards to the first wire set around 30-36 inches off the ground. This becomes the fruiting wire. You lay down a cane on both sides of the trunk at or slighly below the wire. Those develop laterals which hopefully go upwards and those become future spurs- trying to get 3-5 inches between them. The next year you prune to 2-3 buds on each spur. Those buds develop into shoots. Each shoot will get 2 or 3 clusters and may require thinning the number of clusters down. The shoots are trained upwards between sets of wires about a foot apart. They get trimmed off if they grow much past the top wire. Many of the pictures I post are of VSP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VSP at beginning of season
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will be a while, but I will be trying to cover the trellis types listed here as part of coverage of the training trial.














THANKS !!!


----------



## grapeman

Boy are things pushing rapidly. We got a whole one third of an inch of rain today. Since we were so close to bloom, I hooked up the sprayer this evening to put on a pre-bloom fungicide. It had cleared out fairly good and we are going into a day of clouds and a touch of rain, then a day of sun and so on. Anyways, as I began spraying- being right up close and personal to the vines, I began to notice that bloom has actually begun on most varieties. This is a full three to four weeks ahead of last year!


Now all I need to do is get the weeds under control, finish the trellising up, train about a thousand young vines, train the mature vines to their trellis and on and on and on........


No rest for me!


----------



## AlFulchino

do you ever hold back on your sprays during any part of bloom for fear of interfering w pollination?


----------



## Wade E

Awesome, so if things stay on this track does that mean an earlier picking or do you try for higher Brix?


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## Runningwolf

Wow sounds busier then a dairy farmer


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## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> do you ever hold back on your sprays during any part of bloom for fear of interfering w pollination?






That is why I mentioned I put on a fungicide. The fungicide alone does not interfere with pollination- however an insecticide would kill bees that might come in for a bit of pollen or nectar. I still don't like to apply any spray while bees are active, so I wait until evenings to apply.


----------



## grapeman

wade said:


> Awesome, so if things stay on this track does that mean an earlier picking or do you try for higher Brix?




At this point Wade, any guess would be just that. I hope for anearlier picking of higher sugar, lower acid grapes.


----------



## grapeman

runningwolf said:


> Wow sounds busier then a dairy farmer






Believe me there is no comparison- a dairy farmer without help is much worse off.


----------



## ibglowin

Yea, thank goodness you don't have to do twice a day milkings as well!


----------



## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Yea, thank goodness you don't have to do twice a day milkings as well!




Nope, with grapes and wine you only do a glass or two drinking!


----------



## ibglowin

"Hazards" of the occupation I suppose!


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich...let me rephrase...do you have any concerns about the physical force of any spray hitting and dislodging any elements havig to do w polination and preventing its success....i'e a spray knocking pollen away from the flower so that it never completes pollination


----------



## grapeman

I certainly have never thought of that or worried about it Al. If anything I would think it would aid pollination of grapes since the pollen is spread by gravity and wind anyways and does not rely on bees or other insects. I do try to avoid spraying like I said during bloom so I don't contaminate insects tha might be visiting. Maybe you can do a study on the effects of it.


----------



## AlFulchino

well it was a question i have always had in my mind an dthought i would run it by you...it *seems* that a forcible spray...heavy heavy rain..could diminish a proper pollen spread


----------



## grapeman

I am out in the vineyard every day. I went out this evening after another third of an inch of rain today. We have gotten as much in 3 days now as all of last month. WOW is all I can say. I have shoots reaching 3 to 5 feet now and bloom in full force. I moved catch wires this evening and they were HEAVY, but they did not snap many shoots. I made the executive decision to stay home tomorrow and work in the vineyard for the next three days doing training and canopy management duties. My site is starting to show the potential I have seen in it for grapes. The last two years have been so wet and cloudy that it has negated the self sutaining heat engine of the coastalpine plains I am on. The surrounding forest keeps the sun and heat in on a normal year and generates heat typically 5-15 degrees warmer than other areas in the region. The day last week other spots recorded 85-88 degrees at, I saw the temp up to 104.7 in the afternoon. Yesterday I had a high of 89 degrees in the vineyard and 75 in the shade at the house.


I know the heat has my vines a good week ahead of those at Willsboro which has run almost two weeks ahead of mine for the last two years. Should be interesting to see if the trends continue.


----------



## Wade E

Wow, you saw those temps up there? Do you wear an air conditioned space suit for those days?


----------



## grapeman

Wade I saw that temp, sitting in my air-conditioned office that day! I'm overworked, not stupid!


----------



## grapeman

OK so that you all don't think I am exagerating with the growth and bloom, here are a few pics.


----------



## dragonmaster42

And to think a few weeks ago, the buds were barely swelling. Looking awesome!


----------



## AlFulchino

i saw a weed and some suckers...get back out there!


----------



## Wade E

How are my currants doing that we missed? Looking like its getting pretty vigorous over there!


----------



## grapeman

Wade I replanted the area the currants were in, so I dug them all out (the leftover small ones) and threw them away into the mail to one of your neighbors to the northeast. I assume they are happily growing along in nursery pots to get a bit bigger. I didn't want to have to water those suckers this year in pots myself and this other guy really wanted some


----------



## uavwmn

Beautiful, Appleman!!! How do you keep the deer out? Do they eat the leaves or fruit??


----------



## grapeman

I don't keep the deer out. There is enough other feed for them that they pretty much leave the vines alone. An occasional venison dinner helps also.


----------



## grapeman

As of this AM we are at over 2.5 inches of rain for the month of June- 1.5 inches ahead of last year which was one of the wettest on record at 4.75 inches by the end of the month. After a fair day today, rain over the weekend again- here we go again!


On another note, there was an article in Growing Magazine. It was originally going to be in last months issue, but was in June instead. A bit more publicity. If only I can get more after I actually open for business.
http://www.growingmagazine.com/article.php?id=5446


----------



## ibglowin

Oh man,

You better put a sign up saying "wine NOT for sale, GO AWAY!





Very nice piece.


----------



## ibglowin

Or perhaps get a mat like this at the entrance......


----------



## grapeman

I finally got one row of the new trellis system up I developed. Here is a picture of it to show the wire installation on the braces. It is 2 inch angle iron with a 12 inch brace to the post all set at a 60 degree angle. The angle is 30 inches long, so it give a two feet spread of the canopy. It is similar to GDC-Geneva Double Curtain, but one side is higher than the other to prevent shading fom one side to the other of the fruit.













Now that is taken care of, here are some more pictures for you all.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich this is pretty cool but I have to ask, is this still all part of an experiment. When I ride through thousands of acres of vineyards around here I could not imagine them going through that kind of expense.


----------



## grapeman

Well a lot of the pictures didn't load the first time so I will try another post.


----------



## grapeman




----------



## Runningwolf

Really nice pictures. I did walk though one of the vineyards with the owner (I was getting used bottles there) and your grapes are much larger. AGGG...before Wade or Tom says anything what I meant is your vines are much further ahead. LOL


----------



## grapeman

Dan this is part of the training system trial I am doing at my vineyard with a Northeat SARE Grant.(Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education). The angles I fabricated for a total cost of about $5.00 per brace. This will potentially increase yield by 40-60%. This is a very minor expense compared to the whole picture. I will let the vineyards that grow thousands of acres for juice grow them how they wish. I am working towards increasing yield of wine grapes while maintaining equal or improving the quality. 


If this system works out well, I would look at using it on all the varieties it is suited for. If not, there are other systems to investigate.


----------



## Runningwolf

I see what you're saying. For the smaller wineries/vineyards you can get so much more yield in less space. It doesn't take much to realize thereturnyou'll get back for the small investment over the years.


----------



## ibglowin

Those look like a lot of very HAPPY vines! 

Great job Rich.


----------



## Wade E

Are you going to patent them?


----------



## AlFulchino

i agree...GREAT JOB!


----------



## rrawhide

Looks wonderful - lotsa grapes a'comin

rrawhide


----------



## OilnH2O

Looking good, Rich - with our late spring we're waaay behind you!


----------



## BonnieJoy

Rich,


That new trellis system looks dandy. Was this the system you're comparing to VSP? What varieties are you training on this new system?


----------



## grapeman

Hi Bonnie 
That trellis is a totally new system to me. I compared a 4 arm-kniffen to the VSP and hadn't even dreamed up the new one yet.


It is being installed in my new training system trial. In that I am comparing 4 training systems
1)VSP 
2)Top Wire Cordon 
3)Scott Henry 
4)the new system which is a modified GDC I have tentatively named Schuyler (pronounced sky-ler)for the town name.
There are 3 rows of each.


There are 4 varieties I am comparing them on 
1) Petite Amie medium vigor white
2)St Pepin medium to high vigor white
3)Minnesota 1200 medium vigor red
4)Marquette medium to high vigor red




There are 9 of each variety in each of the 12 rows for a total of 108 vines each and an overall total of 432 vines.


The object of this year is to finish getting the trellis in soon and get the vines trained to each system and hardened off before fall. Then after pruning next spring, hopefully I can take a limited crop and some preliminary comparisons. I will continue data collection and comparisons for a couple years. This is an ambitious undertaking and hopefully I can stick with it. It is one of the largest trials of this type in the country involving cold hardy grapes and to this point is mainly privately (under)funded.


----------



## fivebk

Rich, Do you think that with my Geneva Double curtain system with a 4 ft spread will have problems with shading?

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Probably not Bob. I am limited by the 9 foot spacing I have with a tractor with six foot wheel spacing-outside to outside. I needed to develop a split canopy in a tight space.


----------



## fivebk

Thanks for the info

BOB


----------



## grapeman

Here we go again..................... Last year was a summer from heck- not that it was hot, but because it was wet and cool all summer. Now that summer is here, the rains continue, with rain again for the next six-7 days. The highs are supposed to drop into the 60's and 70's. It seems like almost an exact repeat of last year, but at least we are starting out farther along than last year at this point. 


I had considered taking most of this week off from the normal jobs and concentrating on my own vineyard to catch up, but what is the point if it rains every day.


On the bright side, I can always work in the winery and there is plenty to do.


----------



## ibglowin

Send some our way. No rain (measurable) since back in early March. Although the weather prognosticators are predicting the start of monsoonal activity next week. Just about right on time to wash out your 4th of July picnic or camping trip.

You have no excuse for not posting pics of the new winery BTW if you have nothing to do in the vineyard!


----------



## grapeman

Alright you asked for it but don't expect anything fancy. This just shows the new floor before I pressure washed the interior walls today after pruning and hedging all morning before the rain. 













Now a picture to show the walls I have to begin with. I cleaned them up and will paint them. I need to put some OSB on one more wall and then I will paint it all. Nothing fancy at this time. I need to install the lights. All I have in place are some temporary ones I put in to see since the electricity had been removed almost 20 years ago in that area.


----------



## Wade E

Almost looks as if you did the ceiling with cement also, very wet looking. Floor looks good!


----------



## grapeman

It looks wet Wade, BECAUSE IT WAS WET






I pressure washed the walls and ceiling to get rid of all the crud from the barn. I am going to paint all of it to seal it all up until I decide what kind of final finishes I want to use in it. Those white spots on the ceiling are big water drops. Man did I get soaked!


----------



## ibglowin

Looking good!


----------



## Wade E

OK, I knew you were doing the walls but didnt know about the ceiling!


----------



## xanxer82

There are some really nice durable epoxy finishes nowadays.
Just hose it down and it's clean.


----------



## grapeman

Yeah Dan, there are some really good ones out there. Once I decide on one I will likely be using it. Simple cleanup will be important. That's why the all-way draining floor. No matter where I run the hose, it will drain away from the walls.


----------



## AlFulchino

looking good Rich....its a long haul


----------



## Waldo

Oh yeahhhh !!! I can see it coming !!!


----------



## Goodfella

Looking really good Rich.


....and I kind of like Waldo's decorating ideas


----------



## grapeman

Well Waldo, we will see how close you came this fall when I am in there and using the place. Remember I design houses, so you can bet it is already in the computer in many forms. This is just one of a number of rooms in the building, so it won't have all the features in it and nothing fancy. The big windows with the view of the vineyard will be in the tasting room. 


I have been growing the grapes for the vineyard and remodeling the building with virtually zero budget and funds. The finishes suffer, but it will be functional and a place to start.


I still like that place in Texas up for auction, but mine will have to do for now.


----------



## Waldo

Would be nice having you as a neighbor appleman


----------



## fivebk

I second that Waldo !!!!

BOB


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, are you going to stain or paint the floor. Once you paint it you always have to keep after it. when I poured my patio I stained it after it cured with Behr's concrete stain and put four coats of sealer on it. It looks as good as the day I did it. I would not advise putting all those coats on for your floor as you know it is slippery when wet. But staining any day over paint for me.


----------



## grapeman

Waldo said:


> Would be nice having you as a neighbor appleman





Well then, move on up Waldo and Bob


----------



## grapeman

After three days of working in 90 plus degree heat in the sun, I have most of the eastern end of the vineyard under semi-control. I began on Friday by tying up a few rows of older vines. Then I tied up the second and first year vines(I replaced the Cab Franc and Traminette with LaCrescent). I also pulled weeds and used the string trimmer on them. I also had to set some posts, string wire and so on. That ended the day and I ended up with this.





Saturday I began on training up six rows in my training trial I had set the posts in and put the wires up. It was a big job, having to decipher the structure of the vine I wanted to keep and cut away everything else. Progress was slow and so was I in the heat. I then had to go back and use the trimmer between the vines and then mow the clippings and grass/weeds.






I had limited time on the Fourth to work in the vineyard but finished the last couple of rows as above in that section. I had to treat my wife to a Royal Day and then we went to her family's fourth/birthday celebration.





These pictures weren't great because I tried to stand in the early morning shade and the contrasting bright sun was too great for my camera. This is as I was finishing up the last few panels this morning.







A couple rows of vines.





If I get outside before it gets too hot, I need to finish setting a dozen posts before I can string the wire in those six rows in that block, and begin training all over again.

I then need to set most of the posts and string the wire in my 20 row south vineyard. That is the section that froze worst this spring, but overall they are looking pretty good.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, the vines look awesome! You sure will be rewarded for all you're hard work.


----------



## ibglowin

Wow, no rest for you! Vines are looking happy and healthy.

If only you could clone yourself! Hmmmmmm.......


----------



## AlFulchino

lookin good.....your gonna be in great shape!


----------



## fivebk

Vines look great Rich !!!

BOB


----------



## grapeman

I don't know how you guys all love to live where it is hot all year. It was between 98 100 here yesterday. It cooled off to 80 overnight with increasing humidity. There was dew in the grass even at 80! I think I will HAVE TO do some work in the office today! I had planned another day of vineyard work, but that will need to wait. 


It is funny, as I watch the weather. Here it is 80 degrees for a low, and the record high for the day was 89 degree. It will probably be there by 9 AM




. One good thing about it is that the mildew pressure has lessened!


----------



## fivebk

It is supposed to be in the 80s here all week long. It finally quit raining. We ended up with a grand total of 3 1/2 inches of rain and by this morning there was no water left standing anywhere in my vineyard. ( water soaks away real good here )

BOB.


----------



## grapeman

After about a week of 90's and two weeks with no rain, we got almost an inch of rain near andover the weekend. It was very localized rainfall and was hit or miss. I got .6 inches on Friday, others got nothing. Yesterday around noon we picked up another good shot of rain. 


As a result of giving the thirsty vines a good drink, the grape clusters went BAMMM.All the clusters grapesjust about doubled in size in two days! What resulted is a beautiful and somewhat scary sight! Last year some of the varieties had no grapes on them as a result of the severe winter freeze. This year everything I didn't replace is absolutely covered with grapes. Too much hanging fruit! I will need to do some additional thinning to keep the vines balanced.


I'm hoping for continued good weather (although I hate it hot!) until fall to bring a good crop. No pictures this time.


----------



## grapeman

It was a big day here at Hid-In-Pines Vineyard. I got the phone call I have been waiting months for from the TTB. It was my phone interview for the application for the Winery License. It seemed to go smoothly. The woman I spoke with said it needs to go for signatures and I should have my approval in about a week.


Wahoo, I can't wait!!! Then I can submit the paperwork for NYS. Since harvest isn't that far away, I will likely submit an application for a temporary permit along with the full permit, since our process takes a year or so for final approval.


----------



## ibglowin




----------



## Runningwolf

*Congratulations, thats awesome!!*


----------



## Wade E

Great news there Rich!


----------



## vcasey

Congratulations! Excellent news.


----------



## AlFulchino

what i tell ya!


----------



## Waldo




----------



## Bert

That's great news.....CONGRATS....


----------



## grapeman

Today we are hosting the 2010 NE SARE Field Meeting for my grant. It is the second year of the Canopy Management and Training Systems Research. The weather is very warm- upper 80's with high humidity and sunny now, but we may get showers later. This year to raise interest, I combined it with Lake Champlain Wines (formerly LCGGA) to expand the coverage of training the vines to different trellis systems, along with summertime canopy management and how it can affect your crop this year and next. Hopefully I will be able to get some pictures, but my camera has been acting up lately.


Anybody in the neighborhood stop on by and learn a few things.


----------



## OilnH2O

Hmmm... You seem to do a lot of these so-called "seminars..." Do they involve any tasting of the ultimate product? You know -- 
"extra-curricular?" I'm just saying...


----------



## grapeman

The weather was fairly hot for our meeting. It got around 90 with high humidity and mixed clouds and sun. I was surprised the group held together in spite of the weather.
 
We had around 35 people attend this year, quite a bit more than last year. There was a nice cross section of growers attending from home gardeners to small vineyard owners. Hopefully everyone brought away a piece or two of information they found useful. 
 
We tried to cover the basics of summer pruning concentrating on shoot and cluster thinning as well as skirting and hedging. We also covered the four training systems in the trial, showing the trellis structure of each and demonstrated how to tie the young vines to it to establish each. Later we installed earth anchors at the ends of a row, the brace wires at the ends and then strung a row of wire to demonstrate a couple types of wire attachment and tensioning.
 
I didn't get a lot of pictures, but will post a few later today if I get a chance between work in the vineyard.
 
Yes we did taste some wines afterwards, but I made a point of not advertising that. People came for the seminar, not the wine. We sample 10 wines so there was something for all who wanted it.
 
Now back to normal vineyard work today!

Checking in.






A few visitors strolling through







Heading out through the vines







Discussing the new trial vineyard








Just another view.


----------



## Scott B

Looks like a great time!


----------



## AlFulchino

i always wonder why some people take the time to go learn something by driving to a place where something is being taught and then......stand so far away...it always happens....and it doesnt show respect for the person teaching....your doing them a GREAT service Rich!


----------



## fivebk

I wish I could have been there

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

I agree, I'm a front row pew kind of guy myself....





Nice job Rich!



Al Fulchino said:


> i always wonder why some people take the time to go learn something by driving to a place where something is being taught and then......stand so far away...it always happens....and it doesnt show respect for the person teaching....your doing them a GREAT service Rich!


----------



## grapeman

Today I got a non-desript email, but I recognized the name of the sender. True to her word saying I would get it in about a week, it was my *Basic Wine Permit* from the TTB. I am now officially considered a winery by the feds. I had to send a few more pictures yesterday since her supervisors wanted some more showing locks on the doors. I got the last ones to her about 4:00 yesterday and didn't hear from her again until the e-mail. 


Now onto the state.


Hopefully the grapes survive this extreme weather of today - tornado, flooding and some places inches of hail, some 2 inches in size. Thank goodness so far we have only gotten a couple inches of rain at my place.


----------



## AlFulchino

yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rain? whats that....1/2 to 1 inch in the last 45 days here


----------



## Wade E

Congrats my friend!


----------



## BonnieJoy

THAT'S AWESOME


----------



## robie

Congratulations!

It's something I can't really explain, but just seeing those vines brings a huge smile to my face and a warm fuzzy feeling inside. I think I missed my calling. I know a person can start growing grapes and making wine at any age, but seriously, if I could be be a young man again, I'd head straight for California wine country and start out as a laborer in the vineyards and try hard to work my way up to winemaker. I'd even do it now if I were physically able to do that hard work.

I am sure you have worked hard and studied a great deal to get where you are, Appleman. I wish you complete success.


----------



## Waldo

Congrats Buddy


----------



## AlFulchino

Waldo is up early again...must be prepping the Christmas gifts


----------



## grapeman

We continue to get plenty of rain in a timely manner and are up to 1800 growing degree days- 400 ahead of last year at the same time. Last night picked up another half inch- 2.5 inches so far this month. Things are maturing so fast I take pictures and they ripen more before I can post them. I will get some updated ones in a few days, but here are a few I took from late last week. I checked Marquette out this AM and the brix is between 12 and 15.













 


















How long will this stay this color? It is the main winery.


----------



## ibglowin

Looking grand their Rich!





That nice winery seems to be missing a few things still! 

You have some AC in there for the Summer time temps?


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, love the pictures. How soon before you start getting equipment in there.


----------



## grapeman

The vineyard looks better than in those pictures or at least neater after I worked in it over the weekend trimming some things up. Where the small vines are, all that grass under the vines is trimmed neatly back, but I didn't take time to get pictures of the after. I dropped probably easily a ton of fruit over the weekend to get them closer to where I want them.


That area of the winery stays relatively cool. I don't think I will need AC- but heat yes! 


Dan the edquipment has already started moving in there after I took the pictures. Remember I am starting small, so there isn't a ton of equipment. (This is my under $5K budget after all). Most of the sinks, etc are on the other side of that door where the laundry sink is. There are floor drains in this room and I will be able to rinse things out there, but pressure washing will take place outside on the crush pad.
I will probably finish moving things around in there this week and will try to get a picture or two- just doesn't seem to be enough hours in a day...................


----------



## BonnieJoy

Great pics, Rich. Thise Grapes are lookin' awesome!!!!!!!!!!


How big is that main winery room? Looks big enough for helpers to assist in some processing


----------



## Goodfella

Wow Rich.... It looks perfect!!!!


Congrats


----------



## grapeman

Nothing I have is perfect goodfella, but I appreciate the thought. The only way I can afford to do all of this is to do it cheap - so that means a bit less than I would hope for, but it is all mine. 


I finally got a person at the NYS Liquor Authority this AM that deals with the Farm Winery Permits. The one person they have for that was on vacation for the lastmonth. She sent me the Temporary Permit Application within 30 seconds. Last week the lady I spoke with told me I couldn't get a Temporary Permit until I had a license.....huh? If I had a license why would I need a temporary permit?


----------



## grapeman

Ok, here are a couple pictures in the winery with just a bit of stuff moved in. Tons to go, but limited time.












I need to get all these things cleaned up and ready to go.


----------



## R Ziegler

Looks great Rich. Looks like you have alot of room to expand for awhile.


One question though: 
What kind of grapes are these that you posted? Theylook HUGE. Are theyedelweiss?


----------



## grapeman

Actually I will be a bit cramped when I get everything in there, but I will make do.


Those grapes in that picture are Niagara. The Concord next to them are the same size- they are the largest and earliest I have ever had. You should see the size of the Edelweiss at Willsboro! HUGE.


By the way, that picture is a good example of how you want the foliage- providing what is called dappled sunshine. You want the canopy open enough so the sun can hit everywhere at one time or another during the day, but not directly in the sun all day.


----------



## AlFulchino

looking great Rich...!


----------



## ibglowin

Those aren't grapes, there small ping pong balls!


----------



## grapeman

Maybe that is just a really small hand


----------



## Wade E

Wow, everything looks great Rich. You did use Latex paint right?


----------



## grapeman

Yes I used a heavy duty Latex paint and paid for it for about two days. I have pretty bad latex allergies, even to the point where the paint causes me to break out in a rash and get asthma. I had to sleep sitting up in a chair for two days.


----------



## Wade E

Well you know your supposed to put it on the walls not roll in it! Sorry to hear about that buddy! I dont want to know what happens after the Doc says turn your head and cough then!!!!!!


----------



## grapeman

I just make sure they use non-latex gloves. I check to see which box they get them out of because 9 out of 10 times they go straight for the latex ones. I can always tell when somebody uses them - especially the dentist.


----------



## Wade E

Or the proctologist!


----------



## Waldo

Wade said:


> Well you know your supposed to put it on the walls not roll in it! Sorry to hear about that buddy! I dont want to know what happens after the Doc says turn your head and cough then!!!!!!








Lasttime I had to do thatwade I told ole Doc it felt like he was using two fingers. He assured me that he was soI asked him why and he said, Well, its just in case your insurance company wants a second opinion....












Winery is looking great appleman !!!


----------



## grapeman

Changing subject here,


Early grape ripening is proceeding way too quickly for me. This year I have so much going on, I was hoping for a late September, early October harvest so I can get prepared.


The grapes don't want to wait............ The couple clusters of early Reliance and Canadice seedless grapes left from the birds were 18 brix when I checked yesterday. The white grapes are in the 15-16 brix range. Marquette is up to 18 brix, the Frontenac are as high as 19.4 brix- about where I was forced to pick most of them last year when they froze in mid-October. Others I haven't checked, but all but the American varieties have turned quite a bit. The Niagara and Concord continue to grow and are still hard as little rocks. I have NEVER seen my own Concords or Niagara grapes this size being 5/8- 3/4 inch each berry!


Today and tomorrow our local grape group is haveing a Winery and Vineyard Tour event. It is due to be from 12 PM to 6 PM both days, so I will need to hang out close by. I think I will try to get a bunch of the Side Netting on the vines that have turned so much.


I'm heading out now to grab the netting out of the loft. When I moved a bag a few weeks ago with netting inside I got stung by a yellow jacket (and I am allergic to them also).


----------



## Wade E

Becareful my friend and use a stick (long) to move those nets to make sure there are no nests in there. We need you here and we need your new buisness to thrive to help greater mankind!


----------



## Runningwolf

Be carefull and have enjoy yourself with your group this weekend.


----------



## grapeman

Dan, I wasn't very clear about it. The group of us is all vineyard and winery owners. The tour is open and advertised to the general public. Each of us acts as our own host to promote what we have. I'm layed back about it because I can't sell anything, but the wineries can. For $10 the public buys a ticket, which includes a map, brochure and wine glass. They take the glass around to any participating winery and can get four samples at each. The wineries don't get any money, it goes to Lake Champlain Wines - our local group. Nothing prevents them from selling wine to anyone legal to buy it. They should all do very well. I'm sure I will get them also arriving with their glasses held out. Even though I could sample, I don't think I will because of the perception I was doing so without a license.


I'm this close to opening now- I don't want to mess anything up. The rest of my papers went out yesterday to the "Great" State of NY.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, that is awesome they are coming to your place anyways. It sounds like the same thing the *Chautauqua-Lake Erie Wine Trail* do fairly often and you can find them on Facebook also talking about the upcoming events. Big thing today is trying to make the worlds largest toast in PA.


The cool thing about you participating anyways is just getting people to know you are here and will be ready soon. Awesome way to sell yourself and vineyard. I am sure you'll be letting them know about your grant project also which really makes you creditable in their minds. Sure wish I could be there to spend the day with you. Whoops I got my own wine party going on today with some folks from the forum. WE WILL BE POURING and eating!


----------



## grapeman

I had quite a few visitors today at the vineyard. Everyone had so many questions.... I hope everyone had an enjoyable even if brief visit. 


Our group seriously underestimated attendance though and many of them are just startups so have limited stock. We only had something like 300 tickets printed and 288 wineglasses made. This is a two day event and all tickets were sold today and all glasses taken. One of the poor guys just about had a nervous breakdown when the tourbus stopped at his place! He sold his complete stock of wines he currently had bottled!


We still have tomorrow. I guess they are all just going to use their own wine tasting glasses. Hopefully we will be even bigger and better next year when I can participate more fully.


----------



## AlFulchino

my apologies if this was not already posted
http://www.growingmagazine.com/article.php?id=5446



NORTH FEATURES 


</span>

Cold-Hardy Grapes</span>




by Kara Lynn Dunn</span> 

Variety-system matchmaking yields first-year results</span> 

<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5" width="100">
<t>
<tr>
<td>
<table ="#eeeeee" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100">
<t>
<tr>
<td ="artnotes">



</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td ="artnotes"> Lamoy’s first-year 
research showed that Frontenac grapes grown on the four-arm Kniffen 
system with shoot thinning produced an average yield of 28.3 pounds per 
vine, a 67 percent increase over the VSP shoot-thinned system (seen 
here). 
_Photos courtesy of Richard Lamoy, unless otherwise noted._</td>
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As a volunteer at the 300-vine Willsboro Cold-Hardy Wine
Grape Trial at the Cornell University E.V. Baker Agricultural Research 
Farm in Willsboro, N.Y., Richard Lamoy worked, watched and learned. 
As he helped tend the 25 grape cultivars established 
there with Northern New York Agricultural Development Program funding 
assistance in 2005, Lamoy developed insights regarding the likely 
advantages of matching varieties to specific training and canopy 
management systems to improve the quality of the wine grapes grown in 
the colder northern New York region.
In 2009, the Northeast Sustainable Agriculture Research 
and Education program provided funding for him to test his expectations,
and Lamoy established research trials at his young Hid-in-Pines 
Vineyard in Morrisonville, N.Y., southwest of Plattsburgh.
Lamoy’s first-year results showed a range of 40 to 67 
percent improvement in yield and quality in a year that was about 200 
degree days short of the region’s normal of 2,400. 
With fastidious recordkeeping, Lamoy determined that 
specific variety-system matching could bring yield gains of 3.91 tons 
per acre. 
His economic calculations showed certain combinations 
could result in $830 to more than $5,000 in added net value of the crop 
per acre. 
He says, “With just one year of results, I can generally 
say it certainly is possible, but not yet conclusive, that the value of 
wine grapes may be increased both through increased yields and improved 
quality, and that farm income could be increased by getting higher crop 
returns in combination with diminished labor requirement during the 
growing season and at harvest.”
Testing an idea
In the spring of 2009, Lamoy set out to evaluate the 
comparative yields and berry quality using vertical shoot positioning 
(VSP) and four-arm Kniffen vine training systems with the Frontenac, 
Chardonel and Leon Millot grape varieties. 
Within the systems, he compared shoot thinning and cluster thinning methods against a control. 
Damage caused by an unusually cold winter eliminated the 
Chardonel grape from the trial. Two instances of temperatures of minus 
22 degrees Fahrenheit (normal lows range between minus 10 to minus 12 
degrees) caused dieback to the snow line about 15 inches aboveground. 
In Chardonel’s place, and because of LaCrosse’s trailing 
tendencies, Lamoy substituted LaCrosse grapes trained to Top Wire Cordon
and four-arm Kniffen systems. 
<table align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5" width="100">
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<td ="artnotes"> A cluster of Frontenac grapes harvested from the research trials at Hid-in-Pines Vineyard.</td>
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Starting in September, he collected fruit samples to 
monitor ripening and quality development. The berries were crushed for 
juice evaluation, and Brix was measured with a hand-held refractometer. 
The pH was measured with a portable electronic pH meter, and titrable 
acidity (TA) was measured with a Hanna Instruments 8410 Mini Titrator.
In October, each variety was harvested the same day to 
assure consistent results. The Frontenac was harvested on October 15, 
LaCrosse on October 17 and Leon Millot on October 21. 
Each vine of each treatment was picked into its own grape
lug, individual weights were taken and harvest clusters were counted. 
Average vine and cluster weights were determined for each treatment. 
“Data collection was designed to make it possible to give acre-equivalent yields based on vine and row spacing,” Lamoy says.
Combo comparisons show opportunity
The highest-quality Frontenac grapes were obtained using the four-arm Kniffen with shoot thinning combination.
“The four-arm Kniffen system stayed visibly more open 
with the fruit more exposed for ripening, thereby also reducing the need
for pruning and leaf pulling,” Lamoy says. 
“The four-arm Kniffen with shoot thinning produced an 
average yield of 28.3 pounds per vine average. This represents a 67 
percent increase over the VSP shoot-thinned system, and the result was 
two-thirds more yield of a higher-quality product,” he adds.
The Leon Millot grapes grown with the combination of the 
four-arm Kniffen system plus shoot thinning produced significant yield, 
though not as stellar as the Frontenac. That combination extrapolated to
a 40 percent increase in value per acre over using VSP. 
That combo also required less summer pruning and training
time, and the less-dense canopy in a normal year would be expected to 
reduce spraying time and cost by at least one application.
Lamoy says the LaCrosse vines were not all well-formed 
and shade from trees bordering the trial area may have lowered sugar 
levels and impacted acid levels, so yield gains of 2.71 to 11.4 should 
be verified with another a year of testing. 
Lamoy plans to cut the trees back and advises caution 
before drawing conclusions about which system works best for producing 
LaCrosse grapes. With that caveat, however, he says the LaCrosse grapes 
generally demonstrated a yield increase when grown with four cordons.
In addition to yield and quality data, Lamoy tracked the 
labor/time invested in each system and each treatment. “For example, 
using the four-arm Kniffen system with Frontenac equates to a savings of
123 hours of labor per acre over the VSP system. That is a considerable
savings,” he says.
He adds, “July and August were very wet months, which 
dictated an extra spraying for disease, thus impacting cost calculations
over what might be expected in a drier year.”
Added value: award-winning wine
“By combining variety with system to achieve increased 
yield and reduced labor, and then making the grapes into wine instead of
selling them as grapes, there is potential for even greater return to 
net farm profit,” Lamoy says.
Lamoy currently grows grapes on 3 of his 90 acres, and he
is transitioning the fresh vegetable and fruit farm and former small 
dairy to a vineyard and winery business.
In 2009, he won medals for six of eight entries submitted
to WineMaker Magazine’s wine competition, reputedly the world’s largest
amateur winemaker contest.
Five of the award-winning wines were made with North 
Country-grown, cold-hardy grapes harvested from his vineyard and from 
the Willsboro trial. 
Kevin Iungerman, of the Cornell Cooperative Extension 
Northeast New York Fruit Program and Willsboro project leader, 
encourages volunteers who help harvest at Willsboro to make use of the 
unneeded, surplus grapes.
One of Lamoy’s gold medal wines was made with locally 
grown French Hybrid White grapes (the LaCrescent variety), and he earned
three silver medals for varietal wines made with French Hybrid White 
grapes (St. Pepin, Adalmiina (ES6-16-30), Petite Amie) and one bronze 
medal for a wine made with Leon Millot French Hybrid Red grapes. 
Lamoy plans to enter the 2010 WineMaker contest. Once 
licensed, he wants to enter the commercial category of wine competitions
and open his on-farm winery.
Lamoy says, “The success of the Willsboro trial and 
private plantings shows the colder regions can indeed produce cold-hardy
grapes as a valuable crop for northern New York. I am pleased to 
contribute to research that adds to our ability to grow them. Plus, it’s
fun to enter the wine competitions, hold vineyard tours and talk with 
other growers and winemakers.”
E.V. Baker Agricultural Research Farm Manager Michael 
Davis says, “Richard has been invaluable as a volunteer, and now as 
staff here, with both the grapes trial and high-tunnel season extension 
research. He is a fine example of how growers can make practical 
application of the northern New York regional research to grow their own
farm-based income.” 
Iungerman says, “Richard stood out among our volunteer 
Willsboro crew as an innovator with a keen interest in research. I was 
contemplating a more rigorous vine phenology notation and pest 
management-monitoring regimen at Willsboro to support increased 
year-to-year review, mature cropping levels and the first finished wine 
production and needed a colleague locally to assist with the work. 
Happily, Richard agreed to become a part-time seasonal assistant and the
Northern New York Agricultural Development Program approved funding for
the research in 2008,” Iungerman continues. “Both the trial, and now 
Richard’s SARE-funded research, are contributing to the database that 
will strengthen the cold-hardy grape industry for all of our northern 
New York growers.”
Lamoy has requested new funding to continue his research 
trials. “I see this first-year project as validating the concept. 
Additional testing would give reliability to the findings, as well as 
allow expansion of the number of training systems and varieties 
evaluated,” he says. 
“I believe it is possible to predict the best combination
of variety, training system and canopy management type to increase net 
farm income and the sustainability of the farmers interested in adopting
cold-hardy grape production,” Lamoy adds.
Data compiled by Iungerman on variety-specific bud break,
cane growth, bloom, capfall, berry set, veraison and projected yields 
from the Willsboro Wine Grape Trial and the first-year results of 
Lamoy’s varietysystem matching research are online at _www.nnyagdev.org_.


----------



## Wade E

Ive seen that hand before as a gesture of friendship reaching out and digging with me in his yard. Id shake it again!


----------



## grapeman

Now how did you find that article Al? I thought it was hidden.............


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## AlFulchino

hidden? by whom and how?


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## grapeman

I just didn't think anyone would ever see that article. I don't like to post about all of them, seems like I'm tooting my own horn. I had to just approve another one for an undisclosed magazine......................








How did you find enough time to post that with harvest looming or beginning?


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## AlFulchino

i dont harvest at 8:54 pm....going back out in a few minutes..just getting some food.....post the articles...whats wrong w tooting a good horn? horns were made to toot...not to sit on


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## grapeman

*NEWS FLASH*






*I just got off the phone with the New York State Liquor Authority-*
and they have issued me as of 8/25/2010 a Temporary Permit to operate as a Farm Winery. I should have the hard copy in the mail in a day or two. What that means is that I can begin making wine legally as of now as I harvest this year!


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## Runningwolf

*CONGRATULATION!!! 






[ame="http://youtu.be/Aip619LJMDo"]http://youtu.be/Aip619LJMDo[/ame]*


----------



## fivebk

That's GREAT news Rich!!!!!!!

BOB


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## AlFulchino

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!


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## Wade E

Finally you can start making money on what you love to do! Now that is priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ibglowin

Ka-Ching!</font>

Ka-Ching!</font>

Ka-Ching!</font>

Way to go Rich!





Cutting it close or perfect timing depending on how you look at it!


----------



## grapeman

Well it is official!


I just opened a big yellow manilla envelope and inside is this shiny new certificate from the New York State Liquor Authority.
It reads 


"This temporary wholesale permit, issued under section 76B of the Alcoholice Beverage Control Law, Authorizes the permittee designated below to perform the same activities as are performed by a winery or farm winery licensee.


Gentlemen "Start Your Engines"! And we are off and running!!!!!!


----------



## BonnieJoy

Congratulations, Rich, I can't think of anyone more worthy. Can't wait to come East to visit you + Al's fledgling wineries. Cheers to you


----------



## AlFulchino

ditto to Bonnie Joy's ..."
Congratulations, Rich, I can't think of anyone more worthy."


----------



## rrawhide

*cheers*
*cheers*
_*cheers to u*_
and many moreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!


got it going on now on


*congratulations*


rrawhide


----------



## Wade E

I agree with the others and hope this prospers as much as you give to this hobby now turned pro. You do so much for this forum and for the growing of grapes knowledge base. I speak for many out there when I say thanks.


----------



## grapeman

The grapes continue to pick up sugars especially this week with it being around 90 or higher since Sunday. I did a bunch of brix readings. The whites are a bit lower than the reds in general, but not much. Chardonel is around 19 brix, St Pepin 19 or 20 and LaCrosse at 18. For reds, Leon Millot is a hair over 20 brix, St Croix 18,Sabrevois 17, GR-7 18 and Frontenac is all over the map depending on location. It ranges from 17 where they are most vigorous -to 31 brix in the driest spot where I have some raisined bunches! I may have to harvest that dry spot seperately before too many bunches raisin. Marquette is around 22 brix. 


We are expecting a cool down over the weekend to the 60's then into tne 70's next week. Harvest is looming................. Am I ready?


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## AlFulchino

you HAVETO BE READY


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## Waldo




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## Wade E

31, wow!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## grapeman

That was a very small sample Wade. If it keeps creeping up there, I will mix with less ripe areas to get around 26 brix overall. No problem with acid at any sugar level with Frontenac- unless you count too high of acid.


Today is a sample day for the NE SARE trial vines. There will be 30 samples of 50 grapes each, testing each panel of 4 vines for brix, pH and TA. This is the reason I purchased a Hanna mini titrator last year. It still takes hours to collect them all, then prepare them and run the samples.


----------



## grapeman

I collected all the sample and ran the labwork on all of them. It took over 6 hours to do that. 


The brix is higher than all of the same grapes last year at harvest in October. The pH is currently lower than last year and TA is still higher. As those get more in line with harvest numbers, the brix levels shoul be great. If anybody is interested in the spreadsheet of data from this sample, let me know and I can post it.


----------



## ibglowin

Spreadsheets......Data..........

I am all over it!

Lets see some nuuuuuummmmmmbbbbbbeeeeerrrrrrrsssssssss!


----------



## AlFulchino

put batteries in your calculator


----------



## ibglowin

Too funny my italian amigo!


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## grapeman

Alright then, I will post them in the morning.


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## Wade E

Yep, dont know enough about this stuff but need to learn so keep it coming.


----------



## grapeman

Here is the table of data from the samples yesterday. The acids are still pretty high, but they will come down quickly- I hope.




Need to add again when time allows.


----------



## ibglowin

And pH is LOW, is that normal for a grape that is not quite ready to be picked?


----------



## grapeman

pH raises quickly and TA drops as ripeness approaches.


I tried to post more data but gave up after 8 tries. I guess it just overloads the system.


----------



## grapeman

Here is last year's data from the trial. I will try it as an uploaded file and see if it works that way. 
/images/uploads/20100904_085014_2009SAREData.xls


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## ibglowin

That worked!


----------



## grapeman

Hey guys and gals. I need a favor of you all. Anybody who prays, please say a prayer for me tonight. I was just out getting brix readings in the grapes to plan my harvest statedgy. It started raining so I went up inside the winery. All of a sudden there was pinging on the tin roof. I opened up the door and sure enough, it was hailing pea sdized hail. It lasted for about 5 minutes and some wa a bit bigger almost marble sized. I may have gone from a bumper crop to a manure spreader crop in five minutes. I don't see split fruit, but who knows what it will look like in a couple days. That's where I need some prayers if you could. 

This is what it looked like five minutes later- almost gone but still some big enough to photograph.


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## Runningwolf

WOW sorry to hear that buddy. Hears to praying and hoping for the best for you!


----------



## ibglowin

Yikes!

Thinking positive thoughts that the vineyard will be spared from any serious damage.......

Keep us posted when you can.


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## AlFulchino

yes, keep us posted....only five minutes should mean that IF there is damage that it would affect things like the top of the cluster...so a quick harvest in the next day or so would and should mean little effect even if the crop had some damage...easy for me to say from here...not being in your shoes.....what is your expected harvest in pounds?


----------



## grapeman

There is no way I can get the whole crop in in a day or two. I can't pick that fast alone, and I don't have enough picking lugs to do more than a ton at a time. I also need to process them and have enough primaries. 


Yesterday I would have said I expect 10-15,000 pounds of grapes this year, but now I'm not sure what there will be. Even the Catawba were starting to get closer. They were at 17 brix today and they never got higher than that two years ago when I got them off mid-October.


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## AlFulchino

ok..i lost track of your tonnage....yep you cant do that alone...get the word out and gibe some grapes away for jam and juice to thank them....you need some help my friend...we are at 13,000 or so pounds and i figure we will do another1500 lbs or so..glad its mostly done, we just started our big mum season as of today....i, too need more aging tanks by end of this week...one company keeps telling me shipping takes 2-3 week...i told the guy the rest of the world ships faster...last weeks heat pushed primary times way up


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## Wade E

Fingers crossed for you there buddy!


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## BonnieJoy

OMG - What awful luck.


Muchu prayers coming your way!!!!


I'd be there myself to help pick if it weren't for the daggon distance.


Keep us posted.


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## fivebk

I wish I lived alot closer I would be there in a heartbeat to help. Stay positive We're praying for you.

Last night we had 75 mile an hour winds come through here also . In a way I'm kinda glad my vines had no grapes on them this year.

BOB


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## Wade E

If I were closer Id work for grapes! Hehehe


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## grapeman

I picked about 500 pounds of Sabrevois and Marquette today. I figured the Sabrevois was a good indicator because they are so ripe and juicy. I really didn't see hardly any split grapes and most of the ones I did I think I made by taking the netting off from that row. I'm keeping my fingers and eyes crossed! The Marquette is a small planting that I had netted but the birds learned if they sit on the net, they can reach the grapes. I did get some pictures today and will try to post some in the next day or two.


----------



## Dean

Prayers for you Rich! Sending all the good Karma I can your way! FWIW, none, and I mean NONE of my grapes are ready yet...hard as rocks, high in acid, and taste like...well...you know.


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## grapeman

Here are some pictures I have been promising but have been too busy to post.


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## grapeman

And here are some more. The two bins in this one are off the same vine of Leon Millot 41.4 pounds on the one vine! The cluster on the vines and most of the ones in the bins are also Leon Millot- a small clustered variety.


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## grapeman

And more - Here is my Little Deere - much smaller than Al's, but hey, I mow with mine.


----------



## Runningwolf

Wow awesome pictures Rich. What a pain in the a$$ it must be to have to use the netting. Clusters look great. I like the look of your finished floor in th winery also. Thanks for sharing.


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## grapeman

Today I didn't have a lot of time to pick, so I just did 10 Leon Millot vines to get a feeling for how they were doing. AWESOME- THAT"S HOW! 

Like I said above, the one vine had 41.4 pound on it. I am beginning to think that there has been too much emphasis on cutting yields to impreove quality. The vine above is in an extra control panel next to my SARE research trial - handled identical to the rest of the control for that variety. I initially pruned to 5 shoots per foot split between the top wire and the lower wire using a 4 arm-kniffen system. Being the control, they received no additional shoot thinning or cluster thinning like the shoot thinned section or cluster thinned section. The vine had 279 clusters on it! Holy crap batman! So you don't think it was unusual, the other vines in that section averaged 35.2 pounds per vine! 


You might say- yeah but what about the quality? They taste great- a very few green shot berries, but I ran the labs on them and what do you think?
Brix 22.0, pH 3.14 and TA 6.8g/L or .68 depending on your scale you are used to.


The two sections I picked were in different areas of the vineyard. They both tested very similar, but the western one yielded more. The eastern one is on pure sand. The sandy one averaged 25.4 pounds per vine or 8.6 tons per acre. the western one averaged 35.2 pounds per vine or 12 tons per acre. I ask myself why we insist on thinning to 3-5 tons per acre when you can get great numbers at twice the yield using the right varieties and training system. This is the basic premise I am working with in my NE SARE grant work.


So Al - believe me when I say- you ain't seen anything yet for yield- wait until next year when the vines are a bit more mature.


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## AlFulchino

holy cow Lamoy Man!!!!!

we slowed down teh picking because of the aging tank situation... we are 14,500 lbs w another 1-2000 to go


your pics are oustanding,.....very happy for you and couldnt happen to a nicer guy!

thanks for sharing the info


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## ibglowin

Wow, wow, wow! 

Beautiful grapes, beautiful vineyard, beautiful winery!

Very nice job all the way around Rich!


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## Wade E

Rich, the winery is really coming together and the vines, well they just look to die for!


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## grapeman

Harvest has started to pick up a bit now as I am getting a bit more time to pick. I have been tied up a lot at Willsboro, but that harvest will soon be over. I picked in the Leon Millot today, picking the trial section and the rest of them. I have 50 vines of them and ended up with a bit over 1000 pounds. 


This year's trial with the Leon Millot shows the 4 Arm Kniffen the clear winner all around. In the trial I shoot thin, cluster thin or have a check which receives neither. They are repeated on 4 arm kniffen and Vertical SHoot Positioning. The three treatments varies a bit in yield. In the VSP trial they averaged around 15 pounds per vine - your typical VSP yield. The 4 Arm Kniffen averaged a bit under 30 pounds per vine- about double the yield. I have to run the final labs tomorrow to compare the numbers and quality, but they are very close and probably favor the 4 arm kniffen if the trend from previous tests holds up.


It is interesting in that the lower cordons of the 4AK are just about identical to the VSP alone, but a bit thinner because they were initially pruned that way. Where the real yeild and quality difference came in wat the upper arms. Man are the clusters up there nice and big. It was taking about 2 to 3 clusters per pound of them but probaly 5-7 of the lower ones. It was time to get them pick because some clusters had some bad berries in them, probably from the hail damage. They smelled fine, so I sulfited them after crush and they are all in the primaries now.


I will be giving further results of the trial as I develop my results and report. I video taped the Leon Millot to document their comparisons after removing the netting and before picking. Stay tuned for further developments.


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## AlFulchino

wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BonnieJoy

Rich, your 4AK trials are very impressive. I'd love to drive out east to visit you &amp; Al next year to learn from the forum experts. And, of course, purchase some of your wines


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## OilnH2O

Wow. I leave for a little while and you go bonkers! (For the last month I've been in Germany and Switzerland... now, really: on business... and tasting new wines too!) I'm blown away by the yields -- 30 pounds a vine is one thing, 41 is mind-blowing!





Later I'll be interested in knowing how "the numbers" all turn out. I noted in Swiz/Germany many of the growers were trimming whole clusters and leaving them on the ground - to concentrate energy in the remaining clusters right at the end of the growing period. September was a nice month to be there! I'd better go check the brix of what few vines I have left!


----------



## rrawhide

great job Rich - things are finally taking a great turn for you - looking forward to many more great posts.


rrawhide


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## Scott B

Looking Good!


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## fivebk

Rich, The place looks GREAT!!!!! The grapes do too !!

BOB


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## AlFulchino

Rich is the forum expert....!!!!i am just the guy down the street w a lot of luck


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## grapeman

"The Grasshopper "snatched" the ball from my hand and is running with it".


----------



## grapeman

Since we finished up picking at Willsboro yesterday,I can get down to more picking at home. I picked the GR-7 . Man was it ripe. The grapes had started to split, but I don't think it was from the hail- just getting very ripe. I brought them right in and crushed them and sulfited. These were a test planting. They are four years old and I got 400 pounds off 25 vines-not too bad. 


I then picked one section of the Training Trial for LaCrosse - The Top Wire Cordon Section. Again more intersting information is coming out. In the trial they are cluster thinned or shoot thinned or neithr in the control. It was quite obvious the shoot thinned grapes did much better. Both had comparable cluster numbers. The shoot thinned ones though were thinned the the best shoots leaving the best clusters, rather than thinning out cluster to get to the target- result- bigger clusers where the clusters were not thinned! Because of this, the cluster thinned vines averaged a bit over 21 pounds - the shoot thinned vines averaged almost 27 pounds per vine.


If the weather permits, I will pick the 4 arm kniffen section of the LaCrosse. I am pretty sure that those vines will yield substantially higher.
Then onto St. Pepin, Chardonel, Frontenac, Steuben, Buffalo, Niagara, Concord and finally Catawba. The largest crop is definitely in the Frontenac since I have more of those vines than anything else that is bearing.


----------



## hannabarn

Rich, I just got around to viewing your pics. The winery has certainly come a long ways since Betty and I visited you. The vinyard is impressive also. Looks like lots of hard work and it is paying off!!


----------



## R Ziegler

Everything looks spectacular!!!
I am glad you post the info for your trial - I look everyday to see if there is more.


There is one thing I have a question about and I think I have re-read almost every post looking for it and must have missed it - I am suspecting.


*What is your vine and post spacing?* 


6x8 or 7x9 - from the pics the vines look much closer than 8ft.


----------



## grapeman

My vines ar in row 9 feet apart. The vines vary depending on location from a close spacing of 6 foot to the farthest at 7.5 feet apart. This is determined by variety and length of rows. My driest ground gets 6 foot spacing because that is the least vigorous site.


----------



## grapeman

I picked the rest of the LaCrosse vines today before it began raining. I have 25 vines of them. They yielded a bit over 600 pounds and will yield a bit less than 50 gallons of delicious white wine. Again, they are part of the SARE trial and I compared Top Wire Cordon to 4 Arm Kniffen. The quality was very similar with TWC having a very slight edge. The 4 arm kniffen had about 25 percent more yield. I also compared shoot thinned to cluster thinned and the shoot thinned is the winner all around. Not by a ton, but significant.


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich how old are those lacross vines?


----------



## grapeman

Al the LaCrosse and St. Pepin are both in their 5th leaf in the vineyard. The trunks look like they are 10 years old since many of them are about 3 inches across.


----------



## Randoneur

Sounds like a great harvest. Great information you are sharing, thanks.


----------



## grapeman

I got my St Pepin picked today along with what Chardonel there was. The Chardonel clusters were huge, but had gotten too tight and between the hail and all the rain, I lost about 50 percent of them.


The St Pepin I currently only have 20 bearing vines but have about 375 total not counting the ones in the nursery. They should all be bearing next year as that will be their third leaf. My original 20 had about 18 pounds per vine their third leaf average. So if I get that many next year I will have over 3 tons of St Pepin alone. 


The 20 vines this year gave me 525 pounds or 26.25 pounds per vine average. I got some pictures of them, but they are in the camera in the winery tonight- maybe I can get a minute to post them tomorrow.


We are expecting a boat load of rain again- 2 inches tomorrow and another 2 inches tomorrow night. I have gotten the grapes most susceptible to splitting picked now so hopefully they will be ok, even though the rain will dilute the brix some. When it stops raining, I will pick the Niagara - about 4-500 pounds. The Concord can wait some more along with the Catawba, although the sugars have gone way up in them this year. Then I have about a ton and a half of Frontenac left to pick. Sometime in there I will also clean up what is left of the Buffalo and Steuben that haven't been picked for table grapes for the roadside stand.


----------



## grapeman

As I said I would post a few pics of the St. Pepin here are a few of them and then some of the Niagara I picked today.



















Now Niagara





















And a Concord


----------



## Wade E

Wow those are nice and plump. My buddy came over with his Merlot grapes to use my crusher and again they were tiny little things from Lodi. Are these also usually tiny like this? I must say the crusher did a fantastic job on these grapes though unlike the Chard. Almost every berry was plucked very nicely off the stems and not one stuck to the screen inside unlike the chard where the whole screen was almost clogged and I really had to get in there and hand scrape them out into my tub. Brix was a little low on the Merlot grapes IMO at 22. We left it alone and will adjust PH and Brix tomorrow after letting the enzymes do some work but before inoculating.


----------



## grapeman

Wade, you do realize the screen comes easily out. Remove it and just tap into the container and most of the skins fall off into the must. The only grapes that are small berried this year is the Frontenac as usual. Even so, some clusters are over a foot long and almost as wide. I'm sure the 3 inches of rain yesterday plumped them up even more.


----------



## AlFulchino

looking great Rich....did the sugar numbers get up there?

by the way...your hands are not purple....and i can draw some conclusions from that


----------



## grapeman

The sugar did get up there, especailly the St. Pepin. I was picking the Niagara before those pictures Al so the acid in them cleaned the purple off for the first time in a few weeks. Don't worry, after picking them, I went to Frontenac and it looked like I was bleeding all afternoon. My hand is almost black right now. I need to press tomorrow. I would like to keep picking, but the other stuff is more pressing! I also need to transfer another couple hundred gallons to tanks and carboys.


----------



## Wade E

Yeah, I know that only because a friend of mine told me after he used his for 2 years struggling to clean it before he realized it came out! The Merlot grapes were about the same size as the Chard grapes.


----------



## AlFulchino

i have found that if you simply spray your hands w a k meta spray, it does a fine job of cleaning your hands....discovered it when a white rag covered in wine came out looking pretty good...so i grabbed the spray bottle and soaked my hands....lo and behold...stain was severely reduced


----------



## Wade E

Are you going to start taking showers with Kmeta?


----------



## AlFulchino

since only my hands get purple..the answer would be no....are you inferring that you have wine stains in other areas? please no pictures...thanks in advance


----------



## grapeman

Here is a picture from Leon Millot from part of the NE SARE Trial. The marker on the sign didn't show up well, so I added text and I wanted to see how it worked online.


----------



## fivebk

Looks great!!!!

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Rich,

Looks like you are growing FrankenGrapes!

Wow! 

Huge and beautiful color as well.


----------



## ibglowin

Both my Merlot and Cabernet from down South were tiny things as well. 

It would probably take three of em to make one of Rich's FrankenGrapes!



Wade said:


> p. My buddy came over with his Merlot grapes to use my crusher and again they were tiny little things from Lodi. Are these also usually tiny like this?


----------



## Randoneur

ibglowin said:


> Both my Merlot and Cabernet from down South were tiny things as well.
> 
> It would probably take three of em to make one of Rich's FrankenGrapes!
> 
> 
> 
> Wade said:
> 
> 
> 
> p. My buddy came over with his Merlot grapes to use my crusher and again they were tiny little things from Lodi. Are these also usually tiny like this?
Click to expand...

Tiny berries, high skin to juice ratio - that's a good thing!!!!


----------



## AlFulchino

lookin good...bees like that variety


----------



## Wade E

Never thought of it that way!


----------



## AlFulchino

picture this....you have several rows of a variety that honey bees like.....you shake the trellis...before picking...out come a noticeable amount of bees...they dont bother you unless you grab a cluster and one is sitting on the cluster sucking out juices......so you pick and they go to join their brethren on the adjoining row.....so you finish one row go to the next...same thing except a bigger cloud of bees leave the trellis after several shakes of the trellis.......by the 3rd, 4th...5th or more rows....the bees add up ...

when you pick up a bucket of picked grapes there can be many dozens of bees hovering around and IN that bucket...all you can do is grab that handle and walk......and hope they dont want you...any 99% of the time you are left untouched...thankfully....now wasps and others.....thats another story


----------



## Randoneur

My wife and I pick together - she has a special "wasp dance" (she just can't help it)


----------



## grapeman

My hands are purple tonight. I picked Frontenac grapes from the trial. I will have data when I finish and have time to enter it. Picked the first of three rows. There again was a huge difference between the VSP and the 4 Arm Kniffen. In general they averaged 22-24 pounds per vine in the VSP, some more, some less. Depending on the canopy management used, they were in varying states of entanglement. The cluster thinned ones and check or control were especially entangled. In general there were many more small green shot berries in them. The Shoot thinned panel was a bit better with larger clusters and many fewer green berries. 


The 4 Arm Kniffen averaged about 30 something pounds depending on the treatment. They hung down nicely everywhere and the clusters were larger and had few shot berries in them. Since I wanted to pick them all at the same time, they were getting a bit more ripe than I would normally pick them. The shoot thinned panel suffered yield-wise because of it as quite a few had shriveled and fallen off the bunches. That panel still had a greater weight than any of the VSP ones at about 25 pounds per vine. The one vine that was not as overripe had 41 pounds on it. I feel the others would have been comparable if not over ripe.


Ended up with around 750 pounds in that row of the trial.


I still have two more rows of them to pick for that section of the trial


We get more wasps and yellow jackets than honey bees in my grapes.


----------



## Wade E

Lets get a look at that getting full winery!


----------



## grapeman

Another day of picking in the trial again doing the second and half the third row of Frontenac. Got another 750 pounds, but the averages went down, especially for the 4 arm-kiniffen. That is because these vines are 4 years old instead of five and were converted over this year from VSP to 4AK. Some of them just didn't have good canes to begin the upper arms with, so as a result were pretty much just two bearing cordons. Next year they will do much better. Still 750 pounds from 36 vines is not too shabby! 


Tomorrow is going to have to be a day in the winery as I need to run all the labwork on the samples from the grapes from today- 9 of them not counting the crushed, barrel samples. I then have 5-8 brutes ready to press and about 120 gallons to put into storage containers since they are done fermenting (whites).


Wade I will see about a picture or two tomorrow. The winery is full of Brutes since all but one of 20 is full right now, but it would hold another 30 or so and still have room. So if I pick anymore, I need to free some up first.


----------



## grapeman

Alright Wade, here are a few pictures in the winery. Nothing fancy here - no stainless yet, just barrels and carboys. I have wine at all stages, from mostly clear to not even picked yet! 



















I had some help for a while a couple days ago, so here is Del with a cluster of Frontenac. 

Below is a picture showing Frontenac VSP next to Frontenac 4 Arm-Kniffen 












Every carboy I have is currently full. I have about 250 gallons to get into barrels including some reds I need to press. Then I have another 250 gallons fermenting and I still have about a ton left to pick. I am having to get imaginative on where to put wine for temporary storage. I will be glad when I start to get some income from this stuff so I can add some more storage!


----------



## ibglowin

Very nice! (and very full!)

Have never seen those squatty looking carboys. Are they old?


You better get more carboys, looks like you have a lot of grapes still to harvest!


----------



## grapeman

Those are some old glass water carboys another winery let me use. They are 5 gallon ones and are unhandy because you can't get an auto siphon in them, but hey, they hold wine!


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, thanks for sharing. Makes me think I need to get more juice. So nice and clean too!


----------



## Dean

It's about to become controlled chaos! I love seeing other setups like this.


----------



## Wade E

Wow, that looks awesome in there buddy. Me thinks you surely need more storage like a few VCT'sor tanks like Al! With the permit does that only allow you to sell wine you are making now or can you at least have wine tastings with last years wines?


----------



## grapeman

Since I am all filled up with any storage I have, I held off until this weekend to pick any more grapes. I bought two 55 gallon blue barrels yesterday for temporary storage. Today I ordered a 620 liter stainless steel variable volume tank and stand. I'm hoping to get it Wed of this coming week. I also need to order a pallet or two of bottles. There is a bit over 100 cases per pallet, depending on the bottle style.


I had a surprise visit today from a couple people from Uncork NY - the New York Wine and Grape Council. They were here to get pictures from the Lake Champlain region as NY's newest grape growing and wine region. They wanted pictures for their updated brochures.


----------



## BonnieJoy

What ya filling that new SS tank with? Things are moving right along for you. We'd like to see the write-up + photos they do on your winery. It's really exciting to follow your progress. We're all rooting for great success at Hid-In-The-Pines.


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie Joy said:


> What ya filling that new SS tank with?





Why, wine of course











Frontenac


----------



## BonnieJoy

YUMMYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wade E

Im guessing you didnt get the tank through George as I dont see a 620 tank in his arsenal. Thats a nice size tank and should help you out a lot. Congrats on that and Im sure it set you back more then you wanted to spend at this point but once that fantastic wine starts selling youll be buying more to make life easier!


----------



## grapeman

Wade I tried to buy from George and he sure tried to sell. He didn't have and could not get the bigger tank. I decided I would go for two of the 80 gallon ones instead from George. He only had one good one in stock and I need the room and then some. I bought from a company he recommended. Hey you can't get a better referral than from George. This should be the first of many stainless and plastic tanks. I'm hoping for double to triple the production next year as the young vines come into production. I may need to get some help then or else have Congress pass a new law extending the day to 72 hours.


----------



## Randoneur

What would the projected deficit be on our 72 hour days??


----------



## Wade E

Cool, so did you get one 80 from George also or just the big one. Scrap that *JUST *as Im sure that one big one was $!


----------



## grapeman

No I only got the one big tank because I needed to save money for bottles to bottle some early wine in soon. When I start selling the wine, I'm going to have a tank fund where I deposit $2 for every bottle sold. That way I will have money next year to add some more SS or Flextanks. I didn't go the Flextank route this year because their distribution system is so slow it takes weeks to get any. They keep saying they have an Albany center, but they never have any there. That would only be a bit over 2 hours away from me.


----------



## grapeman

randoneur said:


> What would the projected deficit be on our 72 hour days??





I don't want to talk politics since it isn't allowed, but the longer day wouldn't add to the deficit because everybody would have more time to work, so they would make more money so their tax owed would go up, lowering the deficit


----------



## Wade E

We would be to tired to go out and spend any!


----------



## Randoneur

It must be really satisfying to get to this point in developing your winery!
It's interesting to read back, how it's been developing. Congratulations on a good year.


----------



## grapeman

I had a pleasant surprise today - the tank arrived in just one day coming from Michigan! Man is this sucker heavy and shiny. It is almost 6 feet high when on it's stand. I felt like Wade with his Christmas surprise! 


I will post some pictures when I get the stand together and the tank on it. It is an extremely well made tank, well worth spending a bit more on the better grade tank. The inside was so shiny that I almost blinded myself trying to look inside for the stand when it was outside. It took three of us to move it around. It came on a custum built crate put together with about 100 screws. 
They sent me what I called a drool book. One look inside it and I began drooling uncontrollably.







Tomorrow I get a skid of mixed bottles and carboys. The winery is getting full. I don't know how Al fits everything in his little winery and still has room for tastings.


----------



## AlFulchino

just catching up here Rich...love the pictures...those carboys that Mike was asking about, look like demi john glass w/o the baskets..i was cleaning one the other day and that is what they often look like w/o the basket that has the handles...by the way...demi john comes from the name of a Persian or middle easter city in ancient times..i believe it was spelled something like Damiejugn...something like that


----------



## Wade E

So what was so *shingy*</font> about the inside of this tank????



Man you were so excited that you started hitting extra keys! Its such a sweet feling when something so nice appears that will make your life doing what you love so much easier! Congrats on the serious upgrade my friend. Did you trade in that sweet big screen monitor for it?


----------



## Runningwolf

This is awesome. I look forward to seeing pictures.


----------



## Wade E

I think he fell in and now cant get out!


----------



## AlFulchino

someone get him the "CLAPPER"


----------



## grapeman

Not sure why you guys think I fell into the tank........................ Plenty of room for even me, but alas I don't have time for a "barrel" of fun. I'm waiting now for the truck to show up with the bottles and carboys. I hope he has a liftgate on it because I sprained my wrist late yesterday and it is sore for unloading by hand if need be.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Getting those bottles from George? Did he cut ya good deal because of the volume?


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie I get the bottles elsewhere at a winery bottle wholesaler in NYS. It saves a lot on the bottles and shipping. I would love to buy everything from George, but need to count my pennies and being an accountant by trade, I'm sure George understands. 


How is your wine coming along?


----------



## BonnieJoy

The wines started last month are happily maturing.
I'm excited, because this Saturday I pick up those Cab Sauv grapes from Berrien Springs, MI- Lemon Vineyards. I have a gentle process designed for them to attempt a fruit forward wine w/softer tannins and round mouthfeel. I have read that this variety packs a wallup &amp; discretion is advised if one wants to drink the stuff in their lifetime 


Thanks for the info on the bottles. I've been looking for a supplier as I also need to pinch pennies where possible. All of the building upgrades &amp; equipment purchases this year have put a big dent in my discretionary spending budget.


I've been reading your winery progress with great joy. How wonderful it is for you to be able to turn a passion into an occupation. You have fans from afar


----------



## OilnH2O

I think that "sprained wrist" is probably an "over-use" injury from writing in the checkbook!





(great to see the progress, Rich!)


----------



## grapeman

You are probably "write" Dave. And here I thought it was trying to stop that 200 pound tank from falling on the floor as I tried to get it on the stand alone.


----------



## robie

OilnH2O said:


> I think that "sprained wrist" is probably an "over-use" injury from writing in the checkbook!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (great to see the progress, Rich!)


Are we talking about filling out so many deposit slips or ....?


----------



## Wade E

I think he hurt his wrist trying to get a good pic of that tank for us!


----------



## grapeman

Hey Wade, I did get a few pictures today to show you guys the tank and some fall foliage around the vineyard. After unloading a load of bottles and carboys today and other jobs, I am just too lazy to go upload them here (they are in the office and I am in the house)! The tank is just sitting in the middle of the floor right now where I hastily let it down last evening. 


Richard, it certainly isn't from making out deposit slips from wine sales. You are only allowed to sell wine you made after you got the permits, so sales are still a ways off. The money stream (trickle) has been and still is all one way like the last five years. Hopefully I can reverse that stream soon!


----------



## Wade E

That was the answer I was looking for somewhere here as I asked and you probably responded but I never saw it. Rich, I knew you took pics and know youll get them to us, just gotta bust your chops a little my friend! How long before you start filling that bad boy up and turn on the jets for a nice soak?


----------



## grapeman

OK, so here are a couple pictures of the tank even though I haven't put it all together yet...............




















See it is all shiny</font>.


----------



## grapeman

It was nice and sunny yesterday so I snapped a few pictures around the vineyard. Not panoramic vista's like ibglowin, but it looks pretty in it's own way.



















Maybe it is time for another batch of hot wine?


----------



## Runningwolf

Nice pictures. It rained here all day. Love the shiny new tank.Are you guys getting hit with the noreaster storm coming up the east coast?


----------



## AlFulchino

beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## grapeman

The storm really just began up here. We got a half inch of rain so far. It has picked up to quite heavy a bit ago and the winds have kicked up to about 20 mph so far. Snow at Whiteface and Lake Placid. They can keep it there thank you.











Edit:
Tank pictures and more on prvious Page


----------



## ibglowin

Are u kidding, you have vines and Fall color AND chile's!

Plus really pretty shiny sparkly new toys to boot!

I aM GreEn with EnVY!


----------



## ibglowin

BTW,

Its time to pick those chile's!

You know how to prepare them?


----------



## grapeman

I threw that pepper picture in since I took it driving by while getting the tractor rear mounted tines to move the skid of bottles yesterday. He has about an acre of those left in the field now and the market will soon close......................hmmmmm. Wonder if he would miss a few bushels? LOL This is all on the same family farm as my vineyard. I began the farm stand in 1974, the same year as I graduated Ag school with a degree in agronomy. I really do have a bit of ag background.


----------



## ibglowin

That would explain those Frankengrapes!







appleman said:


> I really do have a bit of ag background.


----------



## robie

appleman said:


> Richard, it certainly isn't from making out deposit slips from wine sales. You are only allowed to sell wine you made after you got the permits, so sales are still a ways off. The money stream (trickle) has been and still is all one way like the last five years. Hopefully I can reverse that stream soon!



It'll come, I'm sure.


----------



## grapeman

Some of you may have seen the Veraison-To-Harvest newsletter put out by the NYS Grape Extension program weekly during the pre-harvest period. Tim Martinson, the head of the Extension for grapes included two stories this week on our projects. Included is an article written by Kevin Iungerman - my boss at Willsboro, and one written by myself on my trial.
Here is a link
http://www.cals.cornell.edu/cals/grapesandwine/veraison-to-harvest/upload/Veraison-to-Harvest-2010-8.pdf


----------



## rrawhide

Hey Rich


Tank looks great - variable floating head - wow - this is what you need for sure. 


Looks like to you have to add on already!!!


Are you done picking? We have 2 rows (about 50 vines) to go this next week. The brix was 22-24 and then it rained and the brix dropped back into the 19-21 area. But, after a hot week back to 23-25. Going to shut water off Sat am and this will kick up the brix a little more for Wed-Thurs picking. Then the clean up and the time to put stuff away. Then one more good water for 24 hours and the grapes will go to sleep for the winter.


I will let you know my numbers later.


have a great day.


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

rrawhide said:


> Hey Rich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like to you have to add on already!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rrawhide




That's the beauty of having the old barn.... the structure is already there and all I need to do is expand more into it as needed. Next year the crush pad moves over to a new section and I will have twice the tank storage room as now. Eventually I will rebuild the part of the barn removed 15 years ago. Instead of 8 foot sidewalls I will make them 12 feet or more for larger tanks. The concrete in that area will provide the new crush pad area next year. It is complete with a loading dock type area. Some people saw an old barn, I see a winery!


Good luck with the rest of harvest then a well deserved rest!


I finished up harvest a few days ago. I ended the seasonat 10,000 pounds - at the low end of my estimated yield. That was as a result of the hail storm. It had damaged the fruit some and as they got to the right stage of ripeness, botrytis would set in along with splitting fruit. Next year - barring any disasters- should yield double or more this year's yield and the following year I should have around 30,000 pounds.


----------



## ibglowin

appleman said:


> and the following year I should have around 30,000 pounds.









Wow! 

Your going to have some juice to peddle then!


----------



## grapeman

I know it is a bit late for you guys this year, but I found these items today and have two of the smaller sizes coming for trial. They are called Cellabag. They are collapsable bags for storing wine in for an intermediate storage solution. I was told they can be fitted with bungs and airlocks if needed. They go inside Macrobins or plywood boxes. They come in 200, 500 and 1000 liter. They are 40,70 and 85 dollars and are single use- but that is cheap! I will let you know how they work out. You don't even need to fill them since they inflate to their maximum size.










They also sell the Fermentabag which can be used for fermenting in and come in two sizes. I think they are $175 and 195. They are 600 and 100 liters and also fit in Macro bins. They are self venting and also provide pumpover throught the action of the gases.


----------



## Wade E

Id be careful with some thing like that as mice could get to it and chew it. I had a kit in my basement for a few months and when I went to finally make it I found it had been compromised and thew it away except for the stuff that was good like the chems and the juice itself, the f-pac is what they got into. They chewed a hol no bigger then a penny in the corner that you would have never seen.


----------



## grapeman

I forgot to mention that they are metalized plastic. I'm not sure the mice would like that, although they will try to chew through electrical insulation until they hit the live wires.


----------



## Wade E

That sounds a little better, Id still be worried though with having that much product in them.


----------



## grapeman

Here are a few pictures of my tank. I need to figure out placement before I fill it this week.


















This is for Wade and anybody else wanting to put a motor on this style crusher/destemmer.


----------



## Wade E

I dont think Im going to do that with mine as it doesnt have a chain but actually plastic gears that mesh and to be honest Its nice and light as it is and I can lift it myself and carry it out and onto the horses or stand when I get that. I also dont plan on making huge batches and for the little bit I do the hand crank was very easy. I do appreciate the application and thanks for doing that as I did ask you to do this before I got it and planned on doing it before actually using it and seeing how simple it is with the amount Im doing. 

I love the dble pic in there, you wish!!!!! hehehe Soon enough you will have a few more my friend as soon as a couple of those gems sell. Are you setting up your aspirator with the filter and dble bottler as I do want to see that when its all set up.


----------



## grapeman

I'm down to just 4 Brutes left to press! Tomorrow I will set up the accessories to the pump I got today and fill the tank from the wine pressed the last couple days as it settles out the gross lees.


----------



## Wade E

Got a new pump?


----------



## grapeman

yes, more info tomorrow............


----------



## Wade E

Man, you are a tease!


----------



## ibglowin

Yes, 

Rich is now formally known as a "wine teaser"


----------



## grapeman

OK, here is the pump. It is set up with an intake prefilter and then an intake filter to keep the particles out. It is just a pump and not a chunky pump. This is all I can afford to start. I set it all up today and tested it with water. It is very effective and I can operate a transfer without vacuum. Now on Saturday I will fill the tank with it- if all goes well.


----------



## AlFulchino

looking good...what is the hose diameter? what is the pump type diaphragm etc and gpm?


----------



## Wade E

So do you pump it into the tank via the bottom?


----------



## grapeman

Al Fulchino said:


> looking good...what is the hose diameter? what is the pump type diaphragm etc and gpm?







The hose is 3/4" and the
type= inexpensive and
pumps about 8 gallons a minute.


No it is not a great pump and should not be the envy of anyone, but hey, I have a lot of wine to move from pointA to B and can't use vacuum to do it in these cases.


Wade, I am going to try to put it in from the bottom. I figure that will be more gentle than letting it fall 4-5 feet from the top of the tank. I attached a tri-clamp fitting to the 20 length of hose. I have 10 feet on the suction side. That overall length will cover most areas in this side of the winery. I will eventually need around 100 feet of hose, but will have a better pump by then.


----------



## Runningwolf

Very cool!


----------



## Wade E

Yeah, with all the wine you have that vacuum pump is a little to "low grade"! If you decide to let that pump go through it up on this or my site!


----------



## AlFulchino

actually you dont really want much faster in the gpm dept because you can lose sight if things going in...its gentle enough when handling things by yourself

the hose size is good enough handle the pulp and seed should they still be around


----------



## grapeman

I am certainly keeping the vacuum pump. It operates a lot of stuff yet. Like I said before, it won't allow you to use vacuum on the large tanks to transfer into them- just like you can't use them for Better Bottles. It is perfect for filling glass carboys- and I still have 75 of them and adding more all the time. It works my filter system and even the bottling systems. The hose and fittingswere almost as expensive as the pump.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Big difference in equipment needs going from amateur to pro. Thanks for sharing your growing experiences with us. That's a sweet looking tank. Do ya think you'll jacket that tank someday or do you have another plan for doing cold stabilizations?


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie that tank does not have the capacity to be jacketed. I could add a drop in cooler if wanted, but I expect to add a nuber of tanks in the future. Around here, cold stabilizing is not a problem, just wait until December and you are all set!


----------



## grapeman

I finished pressing the last of the wine today. I did two brutes of Catawba and got about 35 or so gallons. I also did a very small batch of Noiret and ended up with around 4 gallons. The yields of wine to grape poundage this year was higher than it has been for me in the past. So far the body and all seems as high or higher than usual, so it is strange. I ended up the year at close to 1000 gallons in the tanks- a few hundred more than I anticipated. Even though I lost some yield to the hail, overall I got greater than expected yield of must and wine.


After I do a bit more cleanup around the winery, I need to do some fall vineyard cleanup work, etc. I need to round up the rest of the nets into their storage bags. Then I may do a last mowing in the alleyways between the vines. I have an acre of vineyard left to install trellising in. I have about 40 out of 140 posts installed and need to get the rest in. Then the anchors need to be installed and finally install the wires. This vineyard doesn't get much attention yet, but is the first of my expansion vineyards and has hundred of vines of the same variety instead of 25 to 100vines of a bunch of kinds.


----------



## Randoneur

So, you have no Vidal vines for late harvest wine?


----------



## BonnieJoy

Rich - how did the new pump work moving the Frontenac into that awesome SS tank?


----------



## grapeman

The pump worked super in moving the wine. It took about 5 minutes per brute to move it and the tank was full in no time. My little screen filter did not work right and plugged the screen (too fine) in no time so I took the screen out. I need a larger mesh screen. The pump would reprime itself good between tanks. I could let it suck down to nothing but crud in the bottom of the brutes and move to the next tank and the pump would take about 5-10 seconds and be pumping again.


----------



## BonnieJoy

I'd bet that the LaCrosseAppleman is growing he could make some dandy dessert wine.


----------



## grapeman

Bonnie Joy there are a lot of the whites I grow make great dessert wines. I was bottling some LaCrosse and St. Pepin today dry to free up a few carboys to get some more from plastic to glass.

I got a few pictures today of the setup with a single filter in it - can use two when I want. I used the stainless single nozzle filler today.


----------



## ibglowin

What is the make/model of the filter set up? What is the filter size (micron)

Nice set up for sure!


----------



## Runningwolf

Looking good Rich. I see lots of oxy-clean. Do you buy the large boxes at Sams Club or Home Depot and then transfer to those tubs? Thats what I do. The other thing I noticed that I really liked were your hose clamps. Were you able to get those at the big boxes. I like how you can just tighten them with your fingers.


----------



## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> What is the make/model of the filter set up? What is the filter size (micron)
> 
> Nice set up for sure!








The filter came from Valley Vintner. I don't like to give out specific online stores, but in this case, George doesn't sell these filters yet. I got a variety of filter sizes for them from 5 microns down to 0.35 microns. I only wanted to polish today so I used a one micron filter.


----------



## grapeman

runningwolf said:


> Looking good Rich. I see lots of oxy-clean. Do you buy the large boxes at Sams Club or Home Depot and then transfer to those tubs? Thats what I do. The other thing I noticed that I really liked were your hose clamps. Were you able to get those at the big boxes. I like how you can just tighten them with your fingers.






I will have to check out Sam's Club to see if they have it there locally. I hadn't checked there yet. I just buy the plastic tubs- but they add up in cost!


Again the hose clamps came from Valley Vintner as did the single spout filler. It was on sale this spring for $250. I bought it to use for sizing my 2 spout filler I made. That one I used the plastic nozzles for an Enolmatic fitted to some steel tubing and set on a steel plate for a base. One of these days I will be using it and get a picture. They have a variety of hose clamp sizes. They work really well for finger tightening the clamps.


----------



## Runningwolf

appleman said:


> I will have to check out Sam's Club to see if they have it there locally. I hadn't checked there yet. I just buy the plastic tubs- but they add up in cost!




A 14# box is about $16.00 there.


----------



## ibglowin

I have been having a heck of a time with my Vinbrite lately. Been having filters tear (small tears). Either I don't get it screwed on tight enough and it doesn't filter very well or I tighten it down too tight and get another small tear and..... it doesn't filter very well.

Didn't start out that way. The thin plastic filter holder isn't flat any more (kinda warped) and you have to torque it pretty good with the screw on plate to get it to seal properly. 

My cost to filter have doubled recently!


----------



## Runningwolf

Time for areal filter?



You got your self a barrel and want to run with the Big Dogs, well........


----------



## ibglowin

It worked pretty well for the first "rookie" year.........

Perhaps it didn't like our looooowwww humidity....... and shriveled up like a raisin!


----------



## Waldo

Great looking setup there buddy..


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## grapeman

I sent in a label for approval about 10 days ago and just got notice of approval for it. I sent it as a test label to see if I had the key concepts down alright. It is nothing fancy, but it helped me understand what is required.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Looking good. I like the contasting color scheme. Very appropriate for a light red table wine.


----------



## Runningwolf

I love the label.


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## AlFulchino

a beauty...congratulations!!!!!!!! gonna be one of many!


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## grapeman

I sent in three others two days ago. They are all early release wines so I can get to selling something soon.


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## Wade E

Congrats on the approval.


----------



## Randoneur

Looks great. Keep sharing the labels with us, please!




And can't wait to see the final package, on the bottle.


----------



## ibglowin

Congrats on your "first of many" approved labels!


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## rrawhide

congratulations on your 'first' ---- may many more be forthcoming - - - 


and many $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for your great wines.


rrawhide


----------



## Waldo




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## fivebk

Looking good!!!!! won't be long and you will be selling wine.

BOB


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## Scott B

Congrats!!!


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## grapeman

Yesterday I attended a local small Farmer's Market. I now have 5 approved lablels for wine so I brought a case of each for show and sale. I had applied for a Farmer's Market Tasting Permit, but haven't received it back yet from the state, so I was unable to provide samples so customers had to buy without trying. Too bad too because I was set up next to a local Artisan Cheesemaker giving samples of all kinds of their orgainically produced cheeses. Could have been a mini wine and cheese party. I was amazed at the sales most of the vendors made, considering we all have to charge slight price premiums to accomodate extra marketing costs.


I may not have sold out what I brought, but at least another crop of customers were aquainted with what my wines will look like. I kept getting comments on how nice the bottles display. Sorry, I did not bring a camera. This will be a weekly market until Christmas so it will give me some early sales, especially when the tasting permit gets to me. I'm going to give that agency a call today.


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## AlFulchino

great......its quite an achievement to have some one make a *decision* to hand over their hard earned money for your wines...congratulations!


----------



## Randoneur

That is great!! Congratulations to you!!


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## Wade E

Awesome Rich, I have a local winery not to far from me which is one of my favorites as is my wifes as they also sell local farm cheese along with their wines and that is just great. Wouldnt be a bad idea for you. They have a few seats around the inside and many picnic tables outside where you can sit and eat cheese and drink some of the wine. Another thing they sell is tthese crackers which are just awesome.
http://www.americanvintage.com/


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## Runningwolf

Way to go Rich! Great news.


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## BonnieJoy

So, Rich, show us the news labels, pretty please.


----------



## grapeman

It has been a while since I posted. Here is a quick shot for Bonnie. Sorry no closeups. This was at our Thursday Farmer's Market - in a local recreation center for winter.






Here are a few shots of the vineyard in the snow.


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## Runningwolf

Looking good there Rich. Nice that you have another outlet for selling your wines and getting you name out there.


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## ibglowin

Nothing prettier than a vineyard in snow at Christmas.

Wine looks pretty darn good as well!


----------



## grapeman

One thing that is interesting about the market is that there is online pre-ordering for all our items. People can browse online, make a purchase and pick up that week. This week one person bought a case of mixed wine for a party. That will be a nice way to spread the word of the wine.


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## BonnieJoy

Beautiful, just a beautiful site - all those bottles lined up for consumers todrool over. Rich, your snow covered vineyard is absolutely picturesque. I can visualize one of those pics on a dessert wine label.


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## AlFulchino

might fine Rich..i see you are proudly showing those awards 

snow....man you got some..i still dont have any but they say sun/mon we may so i fired up the furnaces in the greenhouses to make sure we are ready...GodSpeed on the wine my friend


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## Scott

Very nice layout, someday maybe get out that way and sample! Or..... when you do a country wide tour?? Yea that's the ticket


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## grapeman

As said in the New Year's posts, I am adding siding to the winery previously known as the old barn. I am going green here and recycling old materials. This wood sells for a premium price of around $5 per square foot. It comes with an authentic patina to the wood with plenty of pre-stressing and authentic worm holes. The boards range from brownish to gray and even some with a bit of green tinting to them. It maintains the authentic rural rustic charm of the building and rich people pay through the nose for the look.

(Just don't tell anyone that we tore all the siding boards off the old collapsed barn in many of my pictures here on the forum. The nails were pulled and we are siding the winery with them. I think it looks great!)

You guys want pictures so I will post some as the siding gets done (it may take a while, I am not as quick as I used to be).






















Once the siding is on, I will be adding fascia boards and soffit from barn board also.


----------



## AlFulchino

its gonna be welcoming and warm Rich...do you have any idea for a property or building sign/logo that you might be installing?


----------



## ibglowin

Looks good Rich!

Is the inside finished at all?

No snow!


----------



## fivebk

Looks GREAT !!!!!!!

BOB


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## grapeman

Al the door you see will be a side door mainly for my use and the occasional handicapped person. The main door will be on the front and will be led up to with a pergola with vines growing up either side and possibly a bench underneath and paved in stone to the door. That will be installed in the spring as the ground thaws and time permits. 


Yes I have ideas for signage
 





But you will all need to wait for any pictures until they are done and installed. Hint - I have lots of bare exterior wall space........


The reason I hadn't posted pictures yet was because it is a work in progress. I have no budget to speak of so it is done as time and money allows. Mike the inside is useable but no, not finished.


No snow now- it melted over the last few days as it approached 50 degrees. Back to reality today with highs in the 20's this week, but lows close to that also.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, I love the look! Can't wait to see more work in progress pictures!


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich, just one thought to share...i had also thought about using some vines for ambiance close to the winery...but i did not do it because you have to spray them to make things look tip top because THAT is where EVERYONE is going to see things up close.....if you have to spray it means two POSSIBLE things...one is you will have to deal w the REI......the second issue is drift not only onto you patio area but into the winery itself


----------



## grapeman

Yep, I had thought of that Al. I have three possibilities
1) Don't do it
2) Let the riparia vines grow up over the trellis . They have grown there for years now and the trunk is 4 inches thick- no spray ever!
3)Grow the NY 95.301.01 vines since they will be protected by the winery building and should do fine. They are a no spray variety developed by Bruce Reisch of Cornell. They are a great looking vine and grape and a promising red variety. 


I am certainly going to put in a 16x20 foot patio in that location and I thought a pergola type arbor would give some shade and draw attention to the entrance.


----------



## Wade E

Looking good my friend. Ive worked with that kind of wood many times with stairs and cabinets. That wood looks pretty sturdy still. Ive had to build stairs a few times with wood like that way way gone and had to hold it all together with the West System Glue and even plywood underneath the treads a few times!!! Cant wait to see it all done. Ill have to make 2 trips next year, once to yours and once to Als as I never made it there last year.


----------



## AlFulchino

you owe me two trips now Wade.....

Rich...doesnt the Riparia play host to some fungi that may act as a source of innoculum?...I would go w the third choice you presented....you may appreciate the shade in the summer...but your climate, like mine, has that spring and fall that can be cool and some sun might be welcome......no matter what you choose you are gonna have fun...no one deserves success more than you!


----------



## Wade E

How about if I do a tasting and then drive around the block and come back! hehehe


----------



## rrawhide

ya'll need to drive out this'a way for a tasting toooooooo!


lookin' great Rich and kinda fun too, huh?


rick


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## DBell

Wow, Ive just finished reading this whole post in its entirety (multiple sittings of course). I feel like I already know a lot of you... sort of anyway. 


The value in this forum is emense for someone like me. I even took notes on a couple of things to reference later. It is my goal to eventually start a small farm winery as well. And for me it is on an extremely tight budget. So to see appleman do it, gives me real hope!


----------



## ibglowin

Welcome to the FVW Forums Daniel!


----------



## grapeman

Welcome Daniel. I hope that you have picked up a few pointers, both good and things to avoid doing. That is why I decided to do this post the way I did- to chronicle the whole process from planting through making wines and so on. Even though I already knew a fair amount about farming and growing in general, the learning process continues. I have gotten to the point that others are seeking information I have gathered through real life experience and research work I have begun. I have even been invited to give a talk and presentation at this year's Finger Lakes Grape Program Conference near Geneva in March. 


Good luck in your own adventures in grape growing.


----------



## DBell

Thanks guys.


Rich, thruyour background,research, medals, and hands on experience; I would say you've definitely established yourself well.


I come from a farming background and an Ag. degree. However, very new to grape growing. I planted my begining vineyard last year (Vidal, Traminette, Vignoles, Noiret, Marquette, NY 95.301.01 and Concord). I have begun to train to VSP with the cordon wire at 42". However, after reading your initial research I am very seriously considering switching to the 4-arm kniffin because of less labor, possible higher yeilds, and same or better grape quality. What do you think?


Also, I will begin a new post about my experiences as well. I guess I will call it Bell Vineyard.


----------



## grapeman

Dan from experience with most of those varieties you might try Traminette as TWC, Vignoles as VSP, Noiret and Marquette as either TWC or 4AK. NY95.301.01 probably either 4 AK or TWC although it is too new to know really which one will do better. Vidal I have no real experience with.




I am currently writing the report for year two of the trial. I will have videos available to show comparisons of the vines for those trial varieties.


Start your topic soon so you can get all these responses in it.


----------



## DBell

Great feed back. I will be glad to save the wire doing TWC or 4-arm kniffin instead of VSP on most varieties



. It seems almost all commercial vineyards in my region use TWC for there vines regardless of the variety. 
I mightdoa half and half of TWCand 4AK on theNoiret, Marquette, and NY95. Then convert totally later based on success and which ever I like working the most.


I very much look foward to your report findings and the videos. I have begun my topic. Feels strange putting my story so out there, maybe I'm just an intravert.


----------



## DBell

Just curious about doin TWC in relation to semi-upright growth habits on vines. How does this work out? or is it a nonfactor?


----------



## grapeman

Dan we have all 25 varieties of vines at Willsboro on TWC. Noiret, Vignoles and a few other semi-upright vines are a real PITA using that tyraining system. If not for uniformity in that trial, we would not grow them that way.


I have been trying to get an extensive training system trial funded so we can determine the best training system to use with many varieties. About the time I got interest from several key parties, grant funding and state funding has been slashed. I am a firm believer that as part of the process of developing new varieties for release, traing trials should be done to find the most appropriate system for these newly released varieties.


See the next reply for an example of what I am talking about.


----------



## grapeman

I have been working on my final report for this year's NE SARE grant I conducted at the vineyard this year. I have a couple charts to show the dramatic effects using the right training system may have on yield and net profit. 
Leon Millot


I will be finishing up the report in the next few days and it will be posted at SARE.org eventually. It is an online submission this year and we can send in video files. I doumented the grapes this year with video and I will try to post those there. If it doesn't work I will link to somewhere else so I will have videos eventiually as well as links at my website.


----------



## grapeman

As a trial to see if this works I am including a link to a single video. I am not a professional videographer like ibglowin, so bear with me. 


*Leon Millot *<a href="%3cA href=" target="_blank">
</A>This is a large file so be patient and dont even try with dialup.


Leon Millot


----------



## AlFulchino

i cant believ no one commented on the video Rich. Great job!

also i wanted to remind you to get your summary report in...its due the 15th of this month...last year being new i didnt realize it was due...also dont forget your gallonage report to the feds...being like me its just once a year

i spend the day on my two reports and think i have them done...gonna sit on them for two days to see if i got it right and then send in


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, just got a chance to watch the video. I thought it was excellent. If I hadn't seen your shadow I would have sworn you were on some kind of a tripod. Nice steady movement and your voice was nice and clear.Vines looked awesome also.


----------



## ibglowin

Excellent voiceover!


----------



## AlFulchino

check out this voice on this guy

http://www.rtdna.org/pages/posts/oh...second-chance-with-golden-radio-voice1193.php


----------



## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Excellent voiceover!





Now you are just making fun of me! I recorded that while walking and my hay fever was acting up. You can hear me huffing and puffing and totally unscripted.




Al that guy was even on the evening news tonight.


----------



## Wade E

Ill check it out tomorrow buddy.


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## DBell

I thought the vid was very good. Cool to see how the canopy opened up on the shoot thinned section.


----------



## ibglowin

Pretty wonderful feel good story. The guy has an amazing voice. I hope he can keep it together and stay clean and sober. Looks like he has people offering him VO work left and right.



Al Fulchino said:


> check out this voice on this guyhttp://www.rtdna.org/pages/posts/ohio-homeless-man-earns-second-chance-with-golden-radio-voice1193.php


----------



## grapeman

I have finished my final report for my NE SARE grant FNE10-691. I would like to express my gratitude to NE SARE for providing funding for conducting this field trial. 


Here is a link to my website page with the report.


I hope a few of you find this information useful.
http://www.hipvineyard.com/hipvineyard/research/fne10.691.html


This page hasthe previous one as well . I have the videos on my website also on the same page.
http://www.hipvineyard.com/hipvineyard/research/research.html


----------



## AlFulchino

looking good Rich


----------



## DBell

Great Job and study. The videos are great. I like seeing whatI'm reading about.
I noticed the time spent working on the 4AK was approx. 0.5 hours for the Lion Millot and Frontenac, but for the LaCrosseit was approx. 1 hour. Just curious about this?


----------



## grapeman

You are very observant. Yes that was right. The LaCrosse really loved the weather we had this year. Along with that, it tends to grow long shoots, so it needed a lot of combing and skirting during the growing season to try to keep it fairly open. It did give a slightly higher yield than the Top Wire Cordon, but came at the price of increased labor.


----------



## DBell

Really interesting. In your video, the LaCrosse on TWC did not appear overly aggressive. However, the LaCrosse on the 4AK didlook like a jungle.
Shows IMO, that you are spot on that varieties should be matched to training systems to maximize fruit quality and yeild, while also considering the labor involved. Really cool stuff.


----------



## grapeman

That's the idea I had. All we need to do is figure out the inner working of each variety. The LaCrosse is indeed that way. I have LaCrosse at the Willsboro site on TWC and it behaves the same way there. St Pepin on the other hand does better on 4 AK. That balances the vine better than TWC and it is too trailing for VSP. It gets too vigorous as TWC, the shoots are too far apart, the crop too low and the shoots become rank (growing 15 feet long). When grown of 4AK, the shoots stay closer together, giving a much better crop and only grow an average 4 feet, keeping the overall vine more open with less shading problems.


----------



## grapeman

As I came on here to make this post, I saw that Al had posted. Upon checking it out, I see he is expecting -14 degrees tonight and worrying about that. 


For a few days now they have been predicting -14 to -19 degrees here. I have been hoping that it would not get that low. As late as 5 this afternoon -19 was predicted. I just checked three stations a few minutes ago and our low here is being predicted at minus thirty one degrees, yes -31 deg F! Golly, if it gets that cold, I will lose about 1/2 to 3/4 of this coming year's crop and certainly lose some of the more tender varieties only good to -15!


I may have TOAST and eggs in the AM!


By the way, at 7 PM, it is sitting at -8 now.


----------



## AlFulchino

wow...and just so you know after i checked mine i got your zip code and saw what you are in zone 4 and i said crap you are gonna get cooked...i feel for you Rich....and i will answer Mike here as i saw he asked what i was rated for...well i have some that already may be toast and i may be worried about a few more tonite as we hit 10-15 for sure and my being in a low spot may go to 20 below...we are sitting at 11 right now


----------



## farmer

You are getting what we had last week,they forcasted -15 for last Friday and we had -27 Friday morning. I hope they get your forcast wrong.


----------



## ibglowin

I feel for the both of you. 

Its got to be tough to be a farmer for sure. Hope the lows are not as bad as forecasted!


----------



## Wade E

Yowsa, thats freaking cold my friends! Heres a prayer for your plants man!


----------



## Dean

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! And I thought it got cold in Canada 

But seriously, deep cold like that is not wanted in a vineyard. Here's hoping you don't get that deep of a freeze!


----------



## grapeman

Time will tell how bad the damage is. This is why I have tried to select hardy varieties for our area. We are historically a warm zone 4 area and 14 out of the last 15 years have been closer to a warm zone 5. Two years ago it hit -22 two days in a row and that was bad enough.


The thermometer on the upper deck says -20 F outside at 6:30 AM. The digital one in the vineyard rarely reads as low. I will get a reading on that one in about an hour.


Vine and site selection is crucial in our region because of these periodic extreme cold temps. I am dialing in on the more hardy varieties since I can do little about my site. This cold will help me weed out a couple more of the more tender ones I had planted. Let's see now, what do I want to replace the Chardonel with............................. The Buffalo are gone, maybe the Steuben....oh well they weren't all that great of wines. 


Hmmmmmmmm.... no sense in trying to keep either the Corot Noir or Noiret...... 2 out of the last 3 years freezing back, not good. A couple others will be interesting to see how they fare.............


----------



## grapeman

The temperature on the digital seems to have bottomed out at -21.5 degrees F. I was afraid the water in the office would be frozen this AM, but it didn't freeze. Good. 


The water in the winery is partially fozen. A couple lines seem to have frozen where it goes through the wall. I will need to check the insulation in that spot so it doesn't freeze again in the future. I have a little heater extra in that area now to thaw it. I may need to shut that section off if it doesn't thaw soon. I guess I should have left the faucets running a trickle.............


----------



## AlFulchino

i hear you Rich on the water...i had shut mine off....we will see if it drained well enough....without the wind we hit nine below, better than they predicted ..just the same i am looking at a minimum of 50 vines that will be toast to t he snow line, but maybe as many as 250 of the fourteen hundred...not sure about the test vineyard that i have but then again that is why it is a *test vineyard*

good news though my friend...it gets warmer form here on out....nine degrees tonite for us anyways and then into the 20's and 30's going forward for day time temps


----------



## grapeman

The water thawed out after I turned on a 110,000 BTU space heater. It warmed up enough to even work in the tasting room on construction. It got up to about -5 outside today and is supposed to warm up during the night. 


There was one casualty from freezing. Obviously one of the faucets gasket broke since when turned off the water still runs a bit. I just turned off the hot water since that was the side leaking on that faucet. I will take it apart and get a replacement for it soon. Hopefully this was the coldest of the year, but we still have a month to go of frigid weather.


----------



## Randoneur

I'm wondering how you deal with this for pruning, do you wait now for bud swell to see what you have?


----------



## ibglowin

I was wondering the same thing, plus if you freeze back to the ground do you have to wait 3 years again to harvest fruit or you just have smaller yields until you get back to mature canes once again.....


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich, nest time you are worried about the water, just leave it running at a slow steady pace and it shouldnt freeze


on the waiting till after a freze to the ground...usually the root system is so good that the first rebound yr you can build a trunk and canes/cordons, at least that is what i did....so i had a healthy amount of fruit in the 2nd yr after freeze


----------



## grapeman

Like anything else there is no single answer to any of thes questions.


With freeze damage, you can get a rough idea of bud damage by taking representative canes in the fruiting zone to sample. Bring them inside and let them thaw and get to room temp for 24 hours. Taking a razor blade, cut the bud on a 45 deg angle all the way through. You are looking for green tissue inside a bit. If green, it is alive. If it is brown it is dead. Sample 100 buds for reliability counting live and dead. That gives you percentage of injury. LTE50 is the temperature where 50% primary bud kill can be expected. If you have greater than 50% bud kill, you can also expect trunk damage and they may need replacing.


Replacement canes and trunks can be obtained fairly quickly if the vine is more than two or three years old since the root system is intact and will push replacements quickly. The problem there is they are fairly susceptible the following winter and may be damaged at lower than expected temps.


I am at the point where if I have over 50% kill, the vines will be replaced with varieties that will withstand colder temps.


----------



## grapeman

Anyone who lives in the Finger Lakes Region of NY, here is an announcement for the 
60th Annual Finger Lakes Grape Growers Conference and Trade Show
Friday, March 4 - Saturday, March 5, 2011
Holiday Inn - Waterloo, NY






This one sounds like a great conference so I think I will attend this year. Oh, wait a minute, I guess I have to since I agreed to speak at it........... what was I thinking. Oh yeah, I have the added bonus of being able to visit my older brother who lives a couple miles from the conference center.


http://flg.cce.cornell.edu/documents/FLGGC2011Program.pdf


----------



## AlFulchino

sounds like fun Rich..have a great time


----------



## grapeman

Construction at the winery continues in spite of the winter weather.You saw some early pictures of the siding I am putting on at the winery. That has pretty much wrapped up for the winter with us having all of the walls at least covered and I will finish the trim and soffits in the spring. We have been working on the tasting room for the last couple weeks on and off. The lights are roughed in now and working, but there will be more accent lighting and trim pieces going in after the finishes applied. For now the room is mostly covered with OSB. Later I will be using knotty pine for wall finish. The ceiling I am either going with a textured paint or possibly wainscotting type wood pained white on the ceiling. 

I don't have a fancy door or windows - just the basics for me at this point. Here are some pictures of the progress for all you picture fans. First before much work lately and then the room a couple days ago.












The area in fron of the doors will have a patio on it for folks to sit in the summer.












The door will be going in that location to lead to storage and rest rooms.





This area will be for display and a couple tables.





Behind door number one is the main winery.













Next I will finish up, clean the area and prime with paint for now. By the way the tasting bar will be in the corner in the last couple pictures. We will be custom building that as I apply finishes on the walls etc.


----------



## Bartman

Lookin' pretty good, Rich. A basic, rectangular framework will be so much more flexible for finish-out inside then a complex, specially-designed layout.

Are those 8' ceilings, or 7'-6"? the door frame looks like it is almost touching the ceiling...

You might consider wiring in some speaker wires for surround sound/ambient music/sports broadcasts - a lot easier at framing stage then later, as I am sure you know.

On an aesthetic point, are you sure you want to use knotty pine? I am not a big fan, obviously, but I know a lot of folks are using it now, and I think it will look dated in 5-10-15 years. Like lots of oak paneling makes an '80s-style house stand out nowadays...


----------



## AlFulchino

ah, i recall those days w memories of tired arms, shoulders and back...at least you were smarter than me and did this in the winter


----------



## DBell

Keep up the good work!you'll be hosting tastings before you know it.


----------



## grapeman

BartReeder said:


> Lookin' pretty good, Rich. A basic, rectangular framework will be so much more flexible for finish-out inside then a complex, specially-designed layout.
> 
> Are those 8' ceilings, or 7'-6"? the door frame looks like it is almost touching the ceiling...
> 
> You might consider wiring in some speaker wires for surround sound/ambient music/sports broadcasts - a lot easier at framing stage then later, as I am sure you know.
> 
> On an aesthetic point, are you sure you want to use knotty pine? I am not a big fan, obviously, but I know a lot of folks are using it now, and I think it will look dated in 5-10-15 years. Like lots of oak paneling makes an '80s-style house stand out nowadays...










Yes Bart, the ceilings are under 8' -0". This was an excisting barn with slightly lower ceilings and with it being an ag use building that is allowed. Remember this is a tight budget job. Is it ideal, no, but it is the only way it can happen at all for me.


I have access to the ceiling via a loft overhead, so I can add any needed speaker wires later.


Am I sure I want knotty pine? Yes, this is a rustic building so anything else is not going to fit well. My vineyard name is Hid-In-Pines Vineyard, so pine paneling is very fitting. I see this room as a starting point, so it will unlikely be used as a tasting room for more than 5 years. I have a new Post and Beam building in mind for a new tasting room in a few years, but I need to crawl before I run. I do drafting as my primary job, so I can pretty much design buildings as I want them. This one was existing so I am working within certain constrains. I don't have 250k or more for a new tasting room at this point.


The wall behind the bar will be on a 45 like this and the rest will be vertical.


----------



## ibglowin

Looking good Rich. Sounds like an excellent plan. Do you have any heat in there yet or are "you" providing heat by working up a sweat!

Thanks for posting the progress!


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich that wall is beautiful! Certainly a man of class!


----------



## Scott B

Looks Great. Thanks for the pics.


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## AlFulchino

ummm...my monitor is 1/3 the size of your's ...no wonder the prescription on my glasses had to be changed


----------



## Waldo

Looking mighty good buddy !!!! Proud for ya !!


----------



## grapeman

LOL Al, that monitor is used strictly for showing clients their homes in 3-d. Mission control uses (where I work when not playing in the winery and vineyard) - monitor 1 for Outlook and internet- 24 inch, monitor 2- for cad and Excel-27 inch, monitor 3 TV and misc - 20 inch, monitor 4 - Word, etc - 20 inch. Then turn the corner of the desk for the laptop and its 22 inch monitor. They are all flatscreens.


----------



## rrawhide

great job Rich - lots of blood sweat and tears and much love went into this - AND IT SHOWS!!


we are all proud of you!!!


keep up the great work and keep posting pictures


thanx


rrawhide


----------



## jnmar

Very nice, Al...Beautiful, I love the Naughty Pine.


----------



## Bartman

Somehow, I forgot your winery was named "hid-N-Pines", so yeah, it would be hard to argue with a knotty pine interior. Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on your short-term and long-term plans. That's a lot better than many of the fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants "weekend warriors" wineries I have been to - you can tell they have tried hard, but if you don't have a clear goal you are working toward, it will show in the end.


----------



## grapeman

Here are some more pictures. An outside couple shots of the winery building. The red area will get resided in the spring. 









This will be the bar area. Those are soffits overhead and there will be puck lights in them.They will be covered with T&amp;G Pine. 





The door into the winery - Top Secret behind there. LOL 








Display areas along with a couple bistro tables. and the v-groove T&amp;G Knotty Pine is under the cover.


----------



## grapeman

View from the bar area







I just got done painting the ceiling white for now so we can start putting up the pine. It will be an interesting pattern that will accent the bar area. More as I get work done.


----------



## AlFulchino




----------



## ibglowin

Looking good Rich!

I think you need a wood stove in there for sure!


----------



## Goodfella

SWEEEET


----------



## grapeman

No comments about the 2 feet of snow on the roof? It was beautifully bright and sunny today- and about 25 degrees.


----------



## Wade E

I was going to say something about that Rich!!!! I have been shoveling my roof for the past 1 1/2 weeks now. I had more snow on my roof when I finally bought the roof rake and was amazed when i first dug in of how much was really up there and how much it really weighed up there. It gets way heavier then the snow on the ground thats for sure!!!! Your place is really really starting to look awesome in there Rich!! Its amazing what some money and a lot of ward work can do!!!


----------



## grapeman

The roofing is steel so when we get a couple warm days or a bit more sun, it forms a thin layer of water underneath and then slides off the roof. Even though it was only low to mid twenties today, the roof was dripping a bit from the sun.


----------



## Randoneur

All that snow remind me of year ago. Our family lived near Boyne City, Michigan and 3 feet of snow on the ground was very common. Great snow skiing though!!


----------



## Bert

Looking very nice Appleman....Things seem to be coming together....Would love to see it in person one day...


----------



## grapeman

The snowy season has arrived here in the Champlain Valley. We have gotten 36 inches of snow in the last week. We had been with very little snow cover all winter and now the snow is at the fruiting wire at between 38 and 40 inches. The snow last evening was as heavy as I have ever seen, furatively and literally. It snowed about 3-4 inches per hour and we had a heavy thunderstorm for about 20-30 minutes. Pretty freaky as the lightning lit the nighttime sky a bright white as it illuminated the snow. 


On another note. I will post some more pictures soon of the tasting room. I made pretty good progress yesterday on installing the knotty pine. I think the bar area will look pretty sharp when all done. I am alternating the v-groove on 45 degree angles on the walls and either side of the door to the winery. It gives the impression of a big glass behind the bar and an upside down V over the door, leading the eye to it. Lots of work to do yet, but it is starting to look like a lot more than an empty room.


----------



## Wade E

You got snow this time and we got rain all day. I had to run around and dig holes in all the snow piles to let the water go somewhere! Cant wait to see those pics Rich and hope that snow will help protect those vines from any future cold snaps you might get.


----------



## vcasey

Just took the time to look through the latest pictures and the tasting room looks terrific and I really love the pine. All that white stuff sure looks different from the white stuff stuff I see at the beach. 
Wade I just can't even imagine having to dig holes in the snow for the rain water to drain or for that matter racking the snow off the roof.


----------



## AlFulchino

your turn Rich...i keep waiting for one greenhouse to collapse from our snow( i pray it wont) the heater kicked out on me so i stuck 2x5's in their to keep it rigid....gonna go over in a few to see what the freezing rain did to it

time to get this next six weeks over so we can both start pruning


----------



## grapeman

Here are a couple pictures of some snow. The first is my old Ranger pickup truck (the mound). Then a picture of some vines wearing a winter coat.











And then some pictures of some of the knotty pine going up along with tools and my helper Keith running wire in the soffit for accent lighting.


----------



## grapeman

The knotty pine will go around the rest of the room and will have three coats of a glosspoly to give it a hard shell. You don't stain it and in a few years or less it will turn a nice golden color like the picture above of my office wall. I think this will knock the socks off visitors and if not, at least I like it! 


More to come. The bar will begin the next couple days.


----------



## rrawhide

looking great Rich - I love knotty pine - - - -


just wondering though, why Keith is not in short sleeves - that's how they do it here!!!


rrawhide


----------



## grapeman

Keith got a little soft. They went to Florida for the last year and came home at Christmas time- and it turned cold........ LOL It is about 50 degrees in there while we are working. He really is being a great help to me to get things done. I love doing everything myself, but his help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich looks really good! Keep the pictures coming


----------



## jnmar

Great pictures Rich, I know you're proud of it and you rightfully should be. It's going to be beautiful. Nice work!

Hopefully, winter will begin going away soon. I can see it's been a tough one.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Wow, Rich, I've been following your progress, and I love your choice of materials. That's gonna be a real cozy tasting room. Have you considerd putting in a wood or coal stove for supplemental heat &amp; ambiance? Keep posting pics - I love watching your wineries growth..


----------



## AlFulchino

i love the look Rich!


----------



## Goodfella

Very nice Buddy!!!


----------



## Wade E

Great job there buddy. I do like the wood stove idea, that would be very nice with the crackling going on and just that smell. I know I would be in heaven in a place like that.


----------



## ibglowin

Coming along nicely. 

Looks COLD in there like there is NO HEAT!


----------



## grapeman

Mike we don't like working where it is too warm. I have a heater for there but haven't used it in a while now. If you turn it on, you are sweating in no time. 


I'm stuck in the office today doing work to make money instead of in there spending money.


----------



## fivebk

Rich, It looks great!!!!You can keep the snow
BOB


----------



## grapeman

Another quick update. First the snow starting to move off the roof. It always looks cool.






Next a look at part of the bar taking shape.






And then a look at the entrance wall- it will get trim.






A look at the soffits- again needs corner trim


----------



## ibglowin

Coming together nicely Rich, I was wondering why you went from diagonal placement to vertical on the pics posted a few days ago. 

Now I see the method to your madness!


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich that bar is really looking cool as is the whole place. How the heck did you catch that snow like that. I can't believe it didn't break off at the edge before you got the picture.


----------



## rrawhide

wow Rich sure looks like a labor of love. love the pine and the diagonals, have 1 wall in our living room i made diagonal many years ago.



what is the depth of your walls? how much and what kind of insulation did you use?


everything looks great and we sure are proud of youl


later


rrawhide


----------



## DBell

Looks fantastic. Good Work!


----------



## Scott B

WOW -looking very nice!


----------



## grapeman

mIkE, i AM a BiT mAD!
Dan the snow was sliding slowly last evening like a glacier as it was just about frrezing and then it froze up overnight. I had about 4 foot overhanging- not the most I have ever seen. One year it was at least 6 feet over and curled in almost a complete circle.


Rick the wall is 8 inches thick, but only uses 6 inches of insulation. That is why I need extra jamb extensions when doing the trim.


The bar will get a lot fancier with time and money, but will begin rather plain. I was going to start with a table and tablecloth, but it really hasn't taken a lot of extra wood and I think it dresses the area up while keeping the rustic look.


Just think, I suggested a few years ago that we go in together and purchase some land in a perfect location for a winery and vineyard. It was right on the south point of Cumberland Head on Lake Champlain overlooking Plattsburgh Bay and Vermont. This was the location of the pivotal Battle of Plattsburgh whichinsured our nation's liberty in 1814. We could still buy a pretty good lot and chunk of land before it is all gone..........................


----------



## AlFulchino

"The bar will get a lot fancier with time and money, but will begin 
rather plain. I was going to start with a table and tablecloth, but it 
really hasn't taken a lot of extra wood and I think it dresses the area 
up while keeping the rustic look."

i would not worry the least about looks...you could roll out an old table, some rickety chairs and let the wine do the talking....oh you need one more thing, make sure you have some greenbacks in your pocket for when you need to give back change


----------



## grapeman

Unfortunately Al the State of New York is a bit harder than that. I need to get pictures to them in the next week or so of my "finished winery and tasting room". They want to see what it will look like for when the doors open, even though I won't officially be opening it for another month or two. I have been operating on what they call a Temporary Permit. They gave me notice that I was issued a full Permit, but with the condition of the pictures. This sped up my deadlines a bit as they said once I got the full permit, they don't give a new Temporary, basically stating - comply or begin the process all over and quit making and selling wine.


----------



## AlFulchino

sorry you are not closer or i would come by today

but since your deadline is that tight and if you get in a final pinch...call or message me and i will come up...just give me a couple of days notice and as long as there is no snow coming here for me to worry about the greenhouses i can come up


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, I also wish I was closer. I would be there in a heart beat to help you out. Good luck on the progress.


----------



## Wade E

Rich, like Al said, if you are in a pinch and need a woodworker give me a shout out and Ill comer up and help on the weekends! Have plenty of tools here also, pretty much anything and am also willing to lend you it until you are done. I have a planer, table saw, many many air tools of any kind like headless pin uns all the way up to 3 1/2" framing nails.


----------



## robie

They will issue the next level up (full) permit based on how your winery and tasting room look? 
Wow! Now isn't that subjective? 

Good luck, I'm sure you will do fine.


----------



## grapeman

I will be submitting pictures to them either tomorrow of the next day. It may not be absolutely complete, but the main structure and finsih is there now. Judging by the other wineries permitted in the area, I will be fine. I figure I will send them pictures with 10 days to spare and if they want more, I will deal with them then. I got more done today and I think it is looking great! I can't believe they would require the poly finish or trim work to be on, but if they do, I will deal with it. I do design houses for a living after all. I just usually don't have to build them, just design them to be built.


----------



## grapeman

I sent out some pictures this AM. Here are a few of them. Like my fancy bar top?


----------



## ibglowin

Fancy indeed, plus looks like there is a seat at the bar!

Lets hope these pics "fly"!


----------



## AlFulchino

just beautiful...will you leave the floor as is ? just spill some wine on it?  acid stain it? other?


----------



## dragonmaster42

Rich, the place is looking great! Fingers crossed on permits and all. 

Tony


----------



## robie

Very nice! Looks like it was lots of work.


----------



## grapeman

There still is a lot of work to be done with it, but it is getting about ready to be used. I enjoy doing it so it really isn't work anyways.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich Al is right about the floor. Staining it is very easy. I did my new patio 3 years ago out in the yard and it is still as good as the day I did it. Behr stain from Home depot after and acid bath. Tons of colors.


----------



## Wade E

How big is the bar Rich? In one of the other shots it didnt look very big, in these shots it looks like a real nice size!


----------



## Waldo

Looking might good buddy


----------



## grapeman

Wade the length of it is 8 feet. Thre is the front section for now and will have a custom top, not just a tablecloth draped around OSB. Later there will be a back section for added functionality, storage,etc. It will be underneath the areas you see wrapped around on that side of the room.


This isn't a huge room, but will hopefully be filled from time to time in the future, maybe by a bunch of you guys someday.


----------



## Wade E

OSB, you went all out huh!!! Hehehe That would be so awesome to have a bunch of us all there at once!


----------



## Bert

Looks great Appleman...Hope everything go as planned...GOOD LUCK


----------



## Randoneur

Rich, when is the grand opening??


----------



## grapeman

The official grand opening will be some time late spring to early summer when I have the vines growing and some of the landscaping done. I will also hopefully have the tile on the floor and the patio and pergola built. I will be opening the tasting room if all goes well around the end of March.


----------



## Randoneur

Don't forget the art work in the tasting room. 
You could go with Van Gogh'sThe Green Vineyard


----------



## rrawhide

what a great picture!!!


rick


----------



## Wade E

I agree, that would be a wonderful picture to have in there!


----------



## AlFulchino

well Rich you will be farther along than i was then if you have a patio and pergola etc.....i had no patio and no landscape when i started, just the wine and the building....i know you have wine ready and bottled...open the darned doors ...you are there anyways....if people show up your a go and if they dont then you get work done...


----------



## grapeman

Al that is why I said the "Official Grand Opening". I turn no-one of legal age away right now and do sell some wine. I need to pay for things somehow- I don't have any rich uncles.........







I may have my youngest son do a painting or two for me. He has been accepted in several art schools already. His talent scares people, and he has the moods to go along with them. A boy almost 6 feet tall and over 300 pounds with artistic talents, but very masculine....... go figure.


----------



## AlFulchino

hey there are some athletes who are painters..remember Tommy Heinson of the Celtics!


----------



## grapeman

Just a little update on this. I sent in my pictures to the State Liquor Authority on 2/10. I called a few minutes ago to check to make sure they had been received and if anythin additional was needed, and the person answering said "WE ISSUED THE FULL PERMIT YESTERDAY" That was music to my ears and can't wait to get it in the mail in the next few days!


Looks like we have launch!


----------



## vcasey

Congratulations!


----------



## CoachPieps

Great for You....


----------



## ibglowin

Lets sell some vino!

Congratulations Rich!


----------



## BonnieJoy

WAY TO GO - ALL YOUR HARD WORK ISFINALLY GONNA PAYOFF.


----------



## Runningwolf

Awesome, Congratulations!!!!


----------



## Scott B

Congrats!!!!


----------



## AlFulchino




----------



## DBell

way to go!


----------



## robie

Ya-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-h!!!!!
What a battle such things can become.
Way to go. You have worked hard for this and you finally got it!


----------



## rrawhide

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah !
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah ! 
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah ! 
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah ! 
good job
great effort
now many $$$$$


congratulations


rick


----------



## grapeman

Thanks guys. Now I can concentrate on getting the wine finished up and ready for sale, rather than getting building done only to sit for a couple months or so.


----------



## Wade E

Congrats to you Rich!!!!!! Thats just plain awesome and Im extremely happy for you. Now its time to get that wine bottled and on the display shelf!!! Did you ever post any pics of the labels for each or the label that is the same for all with a name change for each type?


----------



## Randoneur

Just wanted to say congratulations.
Another milestone in the journey


----------



## Bert

Congrats Appleman.....A lot of hard work and more to come I'm sure....But you seem like the kind of person that will make it work....Best of Luck to you...


----------



## jnmar

Congratulations Rich, job well done!


----------



## Dean

Congrats! Now the real fun can begin!


----------



## grapeman

Here is the Wine Tasting Bar updated. I got it pretty well build this weekend among other things. Until I can get a huge pine slab milled and dried, I built an oak countertop. After getting the structure built, I added shelves and then the edge boards. First some clamps holding the edge boards on.






And then some pictures of the bar.



















And then one of the other display wall I hadn't finished yet.






Sorry about the dust on the camera lens............


Soon poly to seal it and then a flood coat finish.


----------



## jnmar

Looking Great!


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, I am not just envious of your tasting room but even more so of your skills! You are certainly a craftsman of many trades. The room is beautiful.


----------



## Wade E

Looking really good there Rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BonnieJoy

I must agree with runningwolf - you are a "jack of all trades". What a super job. I could live in that room


----------



## ibglowin

Wow you have been BUSY! Looks super.


----------



## rrawhide

wonderful wonderful wonerful Rich - we are all proud of you.


rrawhide


----------



## Waldo

Absolutely awesom buddy..Its great getting to see the birth of your winwry


----------



## AlFulchino

indeed Rich...it is looking very professional

question...you have seats in there...typically seats involve having a food permit of some sort...did you have to get that as well? or are there no requirements?


----------



## grapeman

Yes Al I have some seats. I set them at the bar because it was a clean area in the room. No I am not going to have food. This is not a "Wine Bar". I will have a couple pub tables that the stools will go to. I will encourage people to stop by and linger a while to enjoy themselves. I don't want them to come in the door, sample a couple wines and leave, but rather come and have a nice stay. I feel this is especially important for people that may travel some distance. I want them to come in, have a few small samples, chat and see what I have to offer. 


In the spring, summer and fall, they will also be able to sit out on the patio and maybe have a picnic lunch they might bring. They can also go for a nice stroll through the vineyard at the winery location and I will have guided tours also. 


Any additional services like food, weddings, wine bar, etc would take place in a new larger building and may or may not ever happen.


----------



## ibglowin

Do you have to have any extra special food license to serve those little wine crackers? 

Nice to have something to nibble on between samplings to cleanse the palette.


----------



## Runningwolf

Some of the wineries around here will have a small jazz band or guitarist come in on a weekend or Friday evening. They coordinate it with a local restaurant that will also bring in free snacks or soup for the patrons to taste.


----------



## Scott B

Very Nice!!


----------



## grapeman

runningwolf said:


> Some of the wineries around here will have a small jazz band or guitarist come in on a weekend or Friday evening. They coordinate it with a local restaurant that will also bring in free snacks or soup for the patrons to taste.






A couple weeks ago I had an e-mail from a violinist saying he was booking for the upcoming season and he would like to come up. I need to sell a bit of wine before I go there!


----------



## ibglowin

Barter!


----------



## Scott B

appleman said:


> Yes Al I have some seats. I set them at the bar because it was a clean area in the room. No I am not going to have food. This is not a "Wine Bar". I will have a couple pub tables that the stools will go to. I will encourage people to stop by and linger a while to enjoy themselves. I don't want them to come in the door, sample a couple wines and leave, but rather come and have a nice stay. I feel this is especially important for people that may travel some distance. I want them to come in, have a few small samples, chat and see what I have to offer.
> 
> 
> In the spring, summer and fall, they will also be able to sit out on the patio and maybe have a picnic lunch they might bring. They can also go for a nice stroll through the vineyard at the winery location and I will have guided tours also.
> 
> 
> Any additional services like food, weddings, wine bar, etc would take place in a new larger building and may or may not ever happen.


My local winerysells a small disposable plate with a few cold cuts, cheese, and crackers on it. They keep them a frig. Very little prep time and no cleanup.


----------



## AlFulchino

Rich.....it is my understanding for my area that prepackaged foods are ok as in chips and things...once you have to slice something it is a no no...slicing etc means food prep and utensils and such and now you are in a new league....so you have to apply for other permits

....also seating is something to look into..because when a person actually sits down w a food item....new rules often apply..not always..and not trying to be an alarmist....just trying to protect you...each state varies in what is allowed as does each community


----------



## Scott B

Al Fulchino said:


> Rich.....it is my understanding for my area that prepackaged foods are ok as in chips and things...once you have to slice something it is a no no...slicing etc means food prep and utensils and such and now you are in a new league....so you have to apply for other permits
> 
> ....also seating is something to look into..because when a person actually sits down w a food item....new rules often apply..not always..and not trying to be an alarmist....just trying to protect you...each state varies in what is allowed as does each community





How do they stand on CHEESE WHIZ ON A RITZ CRACKER?


----------



## Runningwolf

Al Fulchino said:


> ....also seating is something to look into..because when a person actually sits down w a food item....new rules often apply..not always..and not trying to be an alarmist....just trying to protect you...each state varies in what is allowed as does each community


Isn't one of those regulations commercial restrooms?


----------



## grapeman

I'm keeping this all simple guys. I don't need or want too many regulations. As far as I know, in NY we are allowed chairs. If someone comes and tells me otherwise that is in authority, I will listen. If I don't offer food, they aren't sitting down with food. That said, it is in the law that as a farm winery in NY we are allowed to offer snack type food that needs nor requires eating utensils. I can find no references to disallowing seating. 






76-a
4. (a) A farm winery license shall authorize the holder thereof to
manufacture, bottle and sell fruit juice, fruit jellies and fruit
preserves, tonics, salad dressings and unpotable wine sauces on and from the licensed premises.
(b) Such license shall authorize the holder thereof to store and sell
gift items in a tax-paid room upon the licensed premises incidental to
the sale of wine. These gift items shall be limited to the following
categories:
(1) Non-alcoholic beverages for consumption on or off premises,
including but not limited to bottled water, juice and soda beverages.

(2) Food items for the purpose of complimenting wine tastings, shall
mean a diversified selection of food which is ordinarily consumed
without the use of tableware and can conveniently be consumed while standing or walking. Such food items shall include but not be limited to: cheeses, fruits, vegetables, chocolates, breads and crackers.

(3) Food items, which shall include locally produced farm products and
any food or food product not specifically prepared for immediate
consumption upon the premises. Such food items may be combined into a package containing wine or a wine product.


----------



## AlFulchino

"2) Food items for the purpose of complimenting wine tastings, shall
mean a diversified selection of food which is ordinarily consumed

without the use of tableware and can conveniently be consumed 
while standing or walking. Such food items shall include but not be 
limited to: cheeses, fruits, vegetables, chocolates, breads and 
crackers."


exactly....and no where is there mention of a seat....it states standing or walking...


----------



## grapeman

Al, my point is that I am not offering food of any description.


----------



## AlFulchino

gee...sorry i guess i misunderstood


----------



## grapeman

I want people to be comfortable while they visit. In NY many tasting rooms have chairs. If I ever want to offer food, it will be in a new building with a regular dining area.


----------



## DBell

Rich that bar looks great. Can't wait to see thepics oftasting room once it is decored.


----------



## ibglowin

So speaking of tasting rooms and different styles based on the architecture of the area here is a snap of a recently updated tasting room just up the road from me. 

They went with the timeless look of "Tin Roof"!


----------



## Runningwolf

Tin Roof? It looks like wood to me. PLace looks great. There is a winery just inside the NY line that has a bar that looks a lot like that one. That is a concrete bar top right? They seem to be popular now. The wood posts are pretty cool to.


----------



## grapeman

I got a manilla envelope today with this fancy piece of paper in it with an official looking seal that was from some place, New York State, I believe. It gives me permission to be a winery....................


I went out to the winery to sample progress on the whines. After about 20 something samples, I think I must have been celebating or sumpin. Dang the winemarker thare makes sum dang gud whine............... The whites are really great this year and I had a few very nice reds even though only about 6 months old. Time for some oak on some of them.


----------



## Runningwolf

Way to go! I heard the wine maker is awesome and has one heck of an approved winery!


----------



## ibglowin

Pics of the "fancy paper" or it never happened!


----------



## ibglowin

Yeppers to the concrete bar top, good eye!

We call the wood post "Rope Vigas" in these parts!





This is the new expanded tasting room at Black Mesa Winery



runningwolf said:


> Tin Roof? It looks like wood to me. PLace looks great. There is a winery just inside the NY line that has a bar that looks a lot like that one. That is a concrete bar top right? They seem to be popular now. The wood posts are pretty cool to.


----------



## Wade E

Rich, that sounds like Country song I know .
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z16jVKrk2s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z16jVKrk2s[/ame] 






appleman said:


> I got a manilla envelope today with this fancy piece of paper in it with an official looking seal that was from some place, New York State, I believe. It gives me permission to be a winery....................
> 
> 
> I went out to the winery to sample progress on the whines. After about 20 something samples, I think I must have been celebating or sumpin. Dang the winemarker thare makes sum dang gud whine............... The whites are really great this year and I had a few very nice reds even though only about 6 months old. Time for some oak on some of them.


----------



## fivebk

So it's OFFICIAL!!!!!!!

BOB


----------



## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Pics of the "fancy paper" or it never happened!








I gotta draw the line somewhere with what I will disclose here on a public forum. In order to see it you will need to visit in person.






How else will you get the whole experience?


----------



## fivebk

Sounds fair to me!!!!

BOB


----------



## ibglowin

Ha!

Just remember you now have a winery open to the "public" and you will be dealing every day with the "public" who walk in off the street. Get ready for a few flakes every now and then!








appleman said:


> I gotta draw the line somewhere with what I will disclose here on a public forum. In order to see it you will need to visit in person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How else will you get the whole experience?


----------



## grapeman

I already deal with a lot of flakes every day, especially in the winter!


----------



## ibglowin

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!


----------



## Wade E

Rich, you should switch to Head &amp; Shoulders!


----------



## grapeman

Expecting another 6-10 inches of flakes tonight.........................
Need a lot of head and shoulders.


----------



## OilnH2O

Temp is 8* above and winds 18G24 --
Our flakes are blowing sideways... Wait - wasn't that a wine movie???


----------



## grapeman

Supposed to blow 40-50 mph here tomorrow on top of the snow and going town close to 0 again. UNCLE!!!!!


----------



## Waldo

Make a big bowl of snow cream and enjoy


----------



## OilnH2O

EASY for YOU to say, Waldo! You've probably cut your grass already!




We woke up to zero this morning -- and it's now up to ... 9 !!!


----------



## Wade E

We might get 2-4" tonight over here!


----------



## Waldo

OilnH2O said:


> EASY for YOU to say, Waldo! You've probably cut your grass already!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We woke up to zero this morning -- and it's now up to ... 9 !!!




Haven't cut the grass yet Oil but it won't be long. Everything is turning green and starting to bud out.


----------



## vcasey

OilnH2O said:


> EASY for YOU to say, Waldo! You've probably cut your grass already!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We woke up to zero this morning -- and it's now up to ... 9 !!!



You mean people have stopped mowing grass? We mow all year around, it just gets reduced to once every 2 weeks in the cooler months.


----------



## ibglowin

Rich,

Here is the Tasting Room Design main bullet points. 

1) Tell a story

2) Link Tasting Room Decor to marketing objectives and events

3) Rework fixtures / found obiects, Mobile units and paint / storage

4) Paint - cheap & easy to change

5) Invest in Lighting

6) Merchandise frequently /Try new lines - Explore lmpulse items at the POS

7) Train / Dress / Script your staff, get them to own the room

8) Develop a phased Masterplan / Budget that can adapt to trends

9) Track what works

10) Hide the dishwasher / Sink

11) Hire professional design help and skilled trades when you can.

12) Have Adequate HVAC and Electrical

13) Display with a purpose, tell a story with cross selling methods

14) Restock daily Wine / Merchandise

15) Tidy and refold every hour (or every time you get a minute) and dust weekly


One thing not on the list that was mentioned during the Q/A session was the fact that you should absolutely refrain from having anything in the tasting room with a smell of any kind. Don't sell scented candles, soaps or anything of any nature with a scent. Don't burn scented candles. Don't wear strong perfumes, or colognes or lotions that can be smelled or transferred. Any strong scent will make it difficult/impossible to properly smell/taste the wines.

Other possibilities, think about having something like a coat hook on the bar for women to hang up their purses w/o them taking up the entire bar top with them. Also think about installing a bar (foot) rail for the men.


----------



## grapeman

Thanks for all the pointers.


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, it's gonna be _really interesting_ to watch you add these _marketing_ skills to your _growing _skills! 

I know you already are pleased that now you _don't_ have to ask, "_Honey, should we stock these vanilla scented or the burberry candles?" (But I wish I could see that picture!)



_


----------



## grapeman

Yeah but I already had hid the sink and now the dishwasher ran the other way and hid on me.


----------



## grapeman

I had to give my presentation today and the Finger Lakes Grape Conference. There were about 200 in attendence. It seemed to be well received by the applause after. I was amazed at the number of people that came up to me, even from some pretty big vineyards and consultants, that commented they really liked my talk.


Afterwards we had a semi-private tasting of my wine and others from the Cornell breeding program and research station on Long Island. We then went to the much larger tasting with about 100 wines from the Finger Lakes. I did a lot of mingling with newly met people and old aquaintances. It was fun.


Tomorrow we have a lot more presentation on economics and in the PM we are covering IPM stuff (integrated pest management). Then I cut out and go visit my ailing brother a few miles awy and spend the night.


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, I'm "amazed" -- but not that so many people came up to you -- _but that you didn't get a standing ovation_! The things you contribute here in snippets are golden - so I'm sure a full presentation would be very informative and... fruitful





BTW, I just put my college-junior daughter on the plane to Rochester this morning (she's on a school service trip) and told her to look for any wines from the "finger lakes region."


----------



## ibglowin

Congrats Rich!


----------



## Dean

Sounds like a great event! Just remember us little people a few years down the line when you start winning the big international competitions and open your 10th vineyard


----------



## fivebk

Hey, I'm standing and clapping. Does that count??????

Good job Rich

BOB


----------



## Randoneur

Rich,
That's great!!



Do they publish the proceedings for this event? I guess I'm a wine geek, because I alway enjoy reading those links you post.


----------



## grapeman

They are sending all attendees a cd with all the presentations and supporting material. Maybe they could make it available to others that request them. I will check with the guys and see what they have to say.










The drive back was a trip to and from he$$.............. I have never seen so many overturned cars in my life! Other than the 7 hour drive through snow and ice and then rain, fog and more snow fog and ablizzard, the last four days have been great.


----------



## FL Steve

Rich, without going back through the archives, how many buds were you trying to leave on the St Pepin? I know you said you had a better crop that was more manageable with 4 Arm. On TWC I ended up with about 1.75 gallons per plant from about 40 buds.


----------



## grapeman

40 buds or so is about the max I would leave. I find by spreading those buds between the top cordon(3 buds)and the lower ones (2 buds) that the clusters get bigger. The St Pepin is one of the varieties in my new training system trial with 4 training systems so I can give you a better idea in a couple years. I have been getting around 2 - 2.5 gallons from the St Pepin with around 40 buds so it might make a bit of a difference but not huge.


----------



## FL Steve

What ph and Brix do you shoot for? I had some really ripe grapes about 4 years ago and they were real strong flavored. Everyone says they can be Reisling like but I don't see it unless I harvest them like my Cayuga, around 18. Last year with the cool summer I had some of the nicest wine I have had from them.


----------



## grapeman

I like to harvest them around pH 3.1 and brix about 21.5-22. I wouldn't say they are really like Riesling. They have their own distinct flavors


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, I guess its been a while since I've been to your web page. Just want to let you knowI was there and it really looks awesome. Very professional.


----------



## grapeman

Here are a few more pictures as the tasting room changes a bit. Still a long ways to go before I feel it is "done", if ever. I had a few folks over yesterday for an impromptu wine tasting. Eventually I will make another counter behind the bar instead of the simple table.





















Now if I can ever get rid of the snow........
2-4 more inches today and I can hardly see outside right now!


----------



## ibglowin

Looking good Rich!











Love the bar top and all the tables and chairs

What's going down on the floor?


----------



## ibglowin

Your not sampling in plastic cups are you!


----------



## grapeman

Mike first off, yes I am currently sampling out of plastic cups until I can afford custom glasses. I know, they are not that much, but at this point anything is too much.


On the floor there will be a leveling layer of mud into which there will be some tile- size and color to be determined. The floor is fairly good, but a few low spots and hence the gaps in places at the bottoms of the wood on the walls and doorways. 


When I get some sales going, I will continue on, but drafting work is still slow in the "recession is over" economy. Work has been running at one third for over two years now.


----------



## ibglowin

I understand completely, you probably need 30 cases of them as well!


----------



## Scott B

Looks Great!!!


----------



## grapeman

I will be getting a few dozen plain ones locally soon until I can afford some custom glasses. I don't need 30 cases of them, the sink is close by, but there is a practical minimum to purchase.


----------



## Flem

It all looks great, Rich. I know you've put a lot of time, energy, and of course, money into it. I really like the wine rack. Very simple, but tastefully done. Is that made of oak? I'm looking for a design---I just might use yours. Do you have dimensions. Good luck to you.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich the tasting room is looking very inviting. I love the bar top and stools! I can't wait to see the finished product some day.


----------



## grapeman

The wine rack is just that, a wine rack I made a few years ago. Yes it is oak, but oak plywood can be used. The plans for it were online somewhere at one time. I modified them for my rooms I had for them. I just snagged it from one storage area to put some wine on for the time being. I have another display in mind when I get time to build it. 


Dan you will just have to drive on up some day and check it out for yourself. Would love to have you visit some day.


----------



## Wade E

Rich, that room is coming along very nice!!!!!!! That Bar top came out wonderful! We'll let you slide on that table for now! hehehehe


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich -- the room really looks great -- and I'll bet you're doing it in the middle of, or alongside, all the other irons you have in the fire! 

I have no suggestions for the floor material, but I am reminded of a friend who years ago was the superintendent of the Lincoln Home in Springfield, Illinois. They had to shut down the house for several months to rebuild the entry, front halls, etc. The locals were not pleased and in an "ambush" TV interview he had a mic thrust in his face and asked, "How can you justify shutting down one of the most popular tourist attractions for three months?" His reply was, "Well, when Mr. Lincoln built this house, he didn't anticipate a million people a year walking up his front steps!"

I don't know you'll get to _that_ level, but I sure hope that soon you'll be saying, _"We need to buy more stools!"_ 

I wish you great success!


----------



## BonnieJoy

Appleman - I just love what you've done with your tasting room. I would sure feel comfy staying awhile.


How is last year's vintage coming? Been bottling your whites? Did youplant any Frontenace Gris in your vineyard?


Congrats. It's always nice to see someone's dream become reality. I wish you mucho success. You certainly deserve it as hard as you've worked to create it.


----------



## grapeman

Spring is trying to surface here in the Champlain Valley. It has been getting warmer each day and by tomorrow should be to the low 60's. Nights have been cold being in the low to mid 20's. It is perfect sugaring weather for the maple syrup producers. They should have a good year locally. The last two weekends they all had open houses or pancake breakfasts but I did not get a chance to go to any. 


I have begun selectively finding areas to get started pruning the vineyard. It is nice to prune without being up to your knees in the snow. The downside is the mud in places now. Oh well... can't have everything. 


I only have about 2000 vines left to prune.......................... How do you do it? people ask. One at a time...... one at a time.


----------



## ibglowin

Good to hear it Rich, You guys have certainly had a long one!


----------



## Wade E

Rich, you need to find Edward scissor hands and insert shears in his hands!


----------



## grapeman

Afer some nice warming weather for the last few days and then hitting a high in the 70's yesterday, most of the snow has vacated the premises. I have about 1/4 to 1/3 of the vines pruned after a few good partial days of pruning. When I began last week, the vines stayed dry after pruning. The sap is flowing now and the vines begin dripping right away after cutting. Even vines not pruned yet are dripping from the ends.


The buds are also swelling quickly. Looks like spring is trying to arrive. Of course it is predicted to snow in a day or so..................


----------



## ibglowin

Rich what are your low temps these past few days?


----------



## grapeman

The lows had also been rising and had been up to about 50, but tomorrow will be 30 again.


----------



## grapeman

You guys have all been reporting your vines growing and some are doing really well. I got up this morning to two inches of snow blanketing everything! Hopefully this is the last snow of the year- yeah right! 


No pruning this weekend either as we had a pruning workshop and tasting here Saturday. Yesterday it wasn't too bad, but gale force winds all day and I needed to bottle some wine and prepare for a presentation in Saratoga NY (I don't think the horse racing track is open yet) for later this week. This one is covering what to look for and test in preparation for grape harvest (when to pick)along with testing juice for winemaking. This is in conjuction with my role at the Willsboro Cold Hardy Trial Vineyard. Again Anna Katharine Mansfield and Chris Gerling will be conducting a winemaking workshop. This is hosted by the CCE Northeast NY Fruit Program.


----------



## Runningwolf

Holy smokes Rich, enough is enough! Sun was peaking out here at 7am and now an hour or so later it is black and raining. Good luck on your presentation.


----------



## grapeman

It was nice here yesterday so I was able to prune some more. It is supposed to rain all week.


----------



## grapeman

I just remembered I snapped a few pictures of pruning and one of them I cut back four arm kniffen LaCrosse to Top wire cordon. I thought maybe somebody might be interested in that conversion. Depending on how it had been trained before dictated what needed cutting off. The idea is to get two top arms on one trunk if possible. If the trunk ever dies, you train a new one up.






This is one vine showing the four arms










And here is the result on the same vine. It looks a little different because I tied the one side up better. You seldom get a perfectly formed vine, but they add character.




Here is a picture of what was pruned off.


----------



## ibglowin

Hey Rich,

I don't really have room for a 4AK system in my small area. What would you recommend for the 3 types of vines I have? TWC or VSP?


----------



## grapeman

If you only want to use one system which makes sense, use TWC as it is easy to establish and the varieties you have perform well on it.


----------



## dragonmaster42

How tall are the top arms on those vines?


----------



## grapeman

The top wire on those is 5 feet 6 inches. I am vertically challenged so it works for me.


----------



## Runningwolf

Very cool. Thanks for sharing that Rich.


----------



## ibglowin

Thanks Rich!



appleman said:


> If you only want to use one system which makes sense, use TWC as it is easy to establish and the varieties you have perform well on it.


----------



## grapeman

This weather is weird this spring- and spring seems somehow appropriate. It has been very wet this spring. Yesterday as I was pruning, I was sinking if I stood in one spot too long. I would leave footprints a couple inches deep. Now today we have had torrential downpours a couple times. This last one gave us 1.54 inches of rain in 30 minutes. We have gotten over 5 inches of rain here so far this month and there are more downpours headed this way! I don't think we need to worry about a dought right now!.


----------



## FL Steve

No kidding, I am so sick of rain, one of those downpours went through here about two hours ago and in the valley at the bottom of my vineyard I have water a foot deep with whitewater rapids. It never has any water. Did you get winds Rich? They were predicting golf ball sized hail but it skipped us. Tomorrow it is going to be worse they say, part of the storm that is ripping everyone else. I think they said we are 4 inches above normal for the month.


----------



## grapeman

There were some gusty winds but not bad. No hail yet, but the next band is almost here. The thunder is getting louder and radar shows it still 20 miles away. Lots of reds on the radar today all across the country. The lower driveway was running a river of water 12-15 feet wide and almost two feet deep at one time about 6PM. It all goes into the vineyard. It is a good thing it is sand!


----------



## Waldo

Some parts of our state are getting grapefruit sized hail.OUCH !!!


----------



## FL Steve

I saw that, I guess that even though we have snow and rain up here at different times of the year, we are more fortunate than some areas. Our thoughts are with you guys.


----------



## grapeman

I picked up another inch and half or rain overnight bringing the monthly total to over 7.25 inches- the most I ever remember in a month. It has been pouring out since I got the readings and expect we will go over 8 inches by the time this storm is past. We haven't had the severe weather like other areas in the south, but this storm has had widespread affects all across the country east of the Mississippi. I need to get pruning done soon and I can't walk in the vineyard right now much less get the tractor in for clipping removal.


I am heading out after the rain subsides to go to Willsboro for some cuttings I promised a guy and hope the road is open over the mountain. There are numerous road closures with washed out roads along the mountain streams.


----------



## ibglowin

Ha! That is almost our TOTAL precipitation for an entire year!


----------



## Runningwolf

So Rich, I guess the excuse of the snow being too deep to trim the vines doesn't work anymore? That's just plain crazy. We didn't get the expected amount of rain but we're getting the wind.Either way I'm glad we're not getting the tornado's that other folks are getting. Hope you dry out soon.


----------



## mijoguero

hi


----------



## OilnH2O

Wow. That sounds like "opportunity" knocking for someone down there!


----------



## grapeman

I guess it had to happen sooner or later- I have budburst on several varieties today!. It was a full week later than last year. After several days in the 60's, it was enough to finally make them begin to open up! YEAH.


All I need to do is finish pruning....................... Just a few rows of older vines left to do and about an acre of expansion vineyard left to prune. Those are two year old vines and will go quickly. 


I put on an herbicide spray on Mother's day. I used Roundup to kill the perennial weeds and a product called Matrix which is a broad spectrum pre-emergence spray which kills many weeds and grasses. I put the spray on with a backpack sprayer- two tanks to an acre. It takes a half ounce of Matrix per tank mix- It has a special tube to measure out the powder. I will see how this works. I just don't have time anymore to hand hoe all the vines a half dozen times a year. The alleyways are seeded with fescue and clover and I mow them weekly.


----------



## Randoneur

Good to hear you are warming up! It won't be long and the spray schedule will have to start - that's a real chore for me.


----------



## OilnH2O

Glad to hear "spring has sprung!" Days are longer, too. It's 5am as I write this and the sun is glowing behind the northern hills -- and sunset is after 9pm. We have had two days in a row that 
temps were in the 60's -- and today is supposed to be 75... can't wait!



But while I have swelling on several vines nothing bursting out yet -- but soon! 



Rich, I'm sure there is an old farmer's saying about springs like this... just can't think of it! 








Dave


----------



## DBell

Good to hear about budburst up there. Seems like a long winter to me. Glad it's over. 
Every old farmer I talk to beleives it's going to bedry this summer becuase of the super wet spring.


----------



## Wade E

Glad to hear things are drying up and looking good over there Rich.


----------



## grapeman

Here is something different to report on from the vineyard. A lot of you guys know of or use Double A Vineyards as a vine supplier. They have a great selection of varieties and great customer service. One of the varieties I grow, St. Pepin, had no photo for it in their catalog or online. In one of my e-mails to Dennis Rak, I mentioned the sucess I have with St. Pepin here in the Champlain Valley and noted he didn't have a picture of it. I asked if he would like one and he said yes. I sent a few to him to choose from. He has recently upgraded the website and he incorporated the picture he selected in the website. Here is a link to it. I just love the bloom and color these grapes get to them. You guys may have even seen this photo in one of my posts last fall. Anyways here is a link to it in the website:
http://www.doubleavineyards.com/p-795-st-pepin-seibel-1000-or-es-282.aspx


----------



## lieu

Thats pretty neat appleman. Must feel good to see one of your own pics in a web site and to be a pic of your grapes







VERY NICE


----------



## Flem

Nice picture Rich. Good feelin', huh?


----------



## Wade E

They look like they almost glow!!!!


----------



## OilnH2O

Like YOU, Wade, on your 16,000th post coming up soon!

(Congrats on another milestone!)


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich very cool looking. They look very tasty. Are they as tasty to eat as they are for making wine?


----------



## DBell

Nice!


----------



## grapeman

runningwolf said:


> Rich very cool looking. They look very tasty. Are they as tasty to eat as they are for making wine?





They are extremely tasty Dan- one of the best flavored grapes you will find. If they were seedless they would make it as a super table grape also. The most dominant flavor is an intense apricot.


----------



## grapeman

Another year begins in the vineyard. Here are a bunch of pictures around the vineyard.


----------



## grapeman

And some more:


----------



## Runningwolf

Awesome pictures Rich. Hopefully will get some sun now to go with all the water we've had. Are you still under flood watch?


----------



## ibglowin

Very nice indeed!



Looking closely to see what my vines will grow up to look like some day!


----------



## grapeman

The St Pepin vines are strange. With them they seem to be like a shagbark hickory. The bark gets loose and falls off. The couple pictures there with all the loose bark are the St. Pepin - they would look dead if they didn't have nice green shoots.


Dan the Flood Watch is still ongoing and since we are expecting another week of rain on and off, who knows when it will end. It is a good thing I am on higher ground because the water is still everywhere. It is challenging to mow. You raise the deck up as the lawnmower submerges and when it gets 6 inches deep shut the blade off or it will try to stall out the Deere.


----------



## Wade E

Looking good there Rich, I hear you with the rain. It rained here for 7 days now. It wasnt serious flooding like you over there but we did have some flooding and I just need some sunlight before I freak out.


----------



## Randoneur

Looks great Rich. Looks like buds are in good shape, don't seeany cordon sections with dead areas,so the vinescame through the winter pretty well. Beautiful.


----------



## Waldo

Looking good buddy


----------



## OilnH2O

Very nice, Rich!


----------



## rrawhide

lookin' good Rich - have agreat year.


rrawhide


----------



## Scott B

Looks Great!!!!


----------



## Flem

Beautiful. Everything look so perfect.


----------



## fivebk

Looking good Rich, Hope it dries up soon

BOB


----------



## Rocky

Rich, I don't know if you have ever heard of them, but I used to live across the street from _Casa Larga Vineyards_ in Fairport, New York. Your pictures remind be of their vineyard in eary Spring.


----------



## grapeman

Rocky I have heard of them, but have never visited them.


----------



## AlFulchino

for a grape grower those pictures do not get much better than the ones you have shown


----------



## DBell

I love the way the 4AK looks at the early growth stage. That 1st pic is really nice.


----------



## OilnH2O

We're a couple of weeks behind you, Rich. But we have one thing in common... STILL RAINING!


----------



## ibglowin

He lives!







Al Fulchino said:


> for a grape grower those pictures do not get much better than the ones you have shown


----------



## grapeman

Well our spell of semi-dry weather has ended after two days. So far we have been under a tornado watch all afternoon, had two inches of rain, hail golf ball size not far from the vineyard (none in it yet) and now there are two tornados as well as warnings a bit to my east in Vermont of all places. It is eerily calm outside with 150 percent humidity



. The sky looks greenish yellow and whenever it is like that, no good comes out of it.


----------



## Runningwolf

Good Luck Rich. We had all of that including the watches last night and earlier this evening. Pretty calm now but still under sever thunder storm watches. At least the tornado watches are gone and we did not get any hail either.


----------



## Rocky

Dan,


That is probably the same storm that blew threw Columbus at about 6:00 PM. We got a lot of wind, some very heavy but short rain fall and then it cleared. Good luck.


----------



## Runningwolf

We actually had a touch down last night about ten miles from me. I think it was just a small one. I few houses damaged and a lot of trees up rooted. Watching the news a woman reported wating a snowmobil trailer being picked up and thrown. It ended up in a tree and they showed pictures of it.


----------



## grapeman

Here we go again.....................


I was at a Farmer's Market this afternoon and go home just before the rains arrived. Now there are flash flood warnings for the area I just came from and the storms have now arrived here.More heavy rain and it is just beginning. Somebody made reference to this guy this AM saying he looked like Moses and was he going to lead us to safety. We need him about now or else Noah to show up at the doorstep. More severe storms for tomorrow and I will be in a tent at a Farmer's Market just off the lake......................................


It is enough to make a guy want to drink some wine while he whines a bit.


----------



## BonnieJoy

Rich, What are you usingon the grass under your vines that has turned it brown?


----------



## grapeman

I know some of you cringe at it's use, but the Roundup works on grasses and perennial weeds and helps keep the vines alive and healthy. If I use a string trimmer, some would get girdled and kill the trunks. I would need harsher chemicals, etc. I also mixed in 2 ounces per acre of Matrix which kills germinating weeds and grasses for a couple months.


----------



## grapeman

The weather has improved somewhat with more normal rainfall the last week and temps warming up well. We had one day of 90 and the rest in the 70's and 80's this last week. We are expecting more of the same, so I expect bloom later this week. 

Here are some more pictures of the vineyard- mostly the younger vines to show how they are shaping up on the 4 training systems for comparison.

Top Wire Cordon





Modified Geneva Double Curtain





Vertical Shoot Positioned





Scott-Henry





These are all the same variety - Mn1200 which is a sister vine to Marquette from the University of Minnesota.

A shot of all four next to each othr. Hard to get them all in.





Some other assorted pictures.


----------



## Flem

Boy, your vinyard is just beautiful. So perfectly manicured. I'm glad the weather is improving for you.


----------



## ibglowin

Looking good and GREEN from all the rain! 

What is the distance from the ground on your TWC vines?


----------



## Rocky

Looks really great, Rich. Do you have any problems with "critters" in your area? I know that Andy (Casa Larga Vineyards in Fairport) always had problems with raccoons and deer. Also, do you do any selection of the grape bunches on the vine? Andy used to go through on his prime varieties and clip off bunches that did not look promising so that the energy from the plant went to the remainder.


----------



## robie

Really green and gorgeous. 

I helped a friend plant a 1 acre vineyard of 5 types of grapes. He has a long way to go to get his looking as nice as yours. With hard work, a little luck, and a whole lot of determination, I am sure his will get there.


----------



## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> Looking good and GREEN from all the rain!
> 
> What is the distance from the ground on your TWC vines?



Mike the top wire is set at 6 feet at the posts but now droops to about 5.5 in between. The wires are tensioned to the point of pulling the earth anchors out and still droop under a half ton of weight.


----------



## grapeman

Rocky said:


> Looks really great, Rich. Do you have any problems with "critters" in your area? I know that Andy (Casa Larga Vineyards in Fairport) always had problems with raccoons and deer. Also, do you do any selection of the grape bunches on the vine? Andy used to go through on his prime varieties and clip off bunches that did not look promising so that the energy from the plant went to the remainder.






Yes we have wildlife around here - they all want a few grapes, but the doberman marking his territory keeps them to a minimum. He can run about 40 mph so he can chase almost anything down.


These are hybrids so as large of a crop reduction serves no real good purpose. I do go through and do smome cluster thinning of bad clusters, but shoot thinning is easier and more productive. My training system and canopy management trials have shown no real advantage to thinning more than necessary. Just choosing the proper training system for the variety is more impoetant. That is what this training system trial I showed here is about. I have gained the attention of leading researchers across the US for this type of work - all done by a small vineard like mine in the middle of the boonies.


----------



## grapeman

DancerMan said:


> Really green and gorgeous.
> 
> I helped a friend plant a 1 acre vineyard of 5 types of grapes. He has a long way to go to get his looking as nice as yours. With hard work, a little luck, and a whole lot of determination, I am sure his will get there.








As long as he puts in the sweat equity and keeps on top of things, thre is no reason his can't look even better!


----------



## ibglowin

My post are ~ 48" tall. I have one vine that has reached the top and growing an inch or two a day it seems. Its a Corot Noir IIRC. Should I run my top wire sooner rather than later and wait for others to catch up? Assuming my vines are less vigorous than yours due to poor soil would you recommend setting a top wire at 6 ft still or lower?

Any recommendations for wire (locally) Hardware stores? Which gauge?


----------



## Runningwolf

Looking really good Rich. Glad to see you finally got a break.


----------



## grapeman

Mike TWC should be between 5-6 feet high. Run the wire soon and then you can train to it as they grow. You can run twine from the shoot down a ways to the wire and let the vine grow up it to the wire. It makes it easier to get it straaighter.
12.5 guage coated hi tensile steel is the way to go. For your mini vineyard go the Orchard Valley Supply online and order a spool of 500 feet. Shipping cost a bit, but it saves you buying 4400 feet!


----------



## Rocky

Very impressive Rich. I like the "Doberman Security System." I would imagine that keeps out all kinds of interlopers! I hope I can see your vineyard someday.


----------



## ibglowin

Sounds like a plan, 

Thanks Rich!



appleman said:


> Mike TWC should be between 5-6 feet high. Run the wire soon and then you can train to it as they grow. You can run twine from the shoot down a ways to the wire and let the vine grow up it to the wire. It makes it easier to get it straaighter.
> 12.5 guage coated hi tensile steel is the way to go. For your mini vineyard go the Orchard Valley Supply online and order a spool of 500 feet. Shipping cost a bit, but it saves you buying 4400 feet!


----------



## grapeman

No fancy pictures this time (or even plain simple ones). BLOOM began in the vineyard here today. I noted Mn1200 and Marquette blooms this AM and by afternoon quite a few of the Frontenac are blooming! This is about normal for here and a week behind last year to the day.


----------



## Wade E

Thats funny cause werent you a week or 2 ahead of time in the beginning of this year when action started? Hope its a great year for all of you growers out there of anything! On a side note, Dragonmaster sent me a cutting of a Beauty Berrytree early this year and I planted on the side of my yard fairly close to my blackberry bushes and its springing to life pretty good know. Cant wait for a few years when I can start seeing how pretty this is, the pics he had were just unreal with the color of the berry.


----------



## grapeman

No Wade this year has been behind right from the beginning. We had a lot of snow and then a lot of wet cool weather with some warm days interspersed.


The Beauty Berry sounds great.


----------



## Wade E

Guess my mind is slipping also along with my eyesight!!!


----------



## grapeman

At the risk of boring everyone, here are more pics.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich it is certainly one of the neatest vinetards I have seen. You never bore us with your pictures. I actually look forward to the pictures.


----------



## Flem

Ahhh! The joy of spring. No boredom here. Keep them coming.


----------



## Rocky

Rich, I know very little about growing grapes so this observation may seem inane but it appears that you are going to have a great yield from these vines. Is this normal or is this a particularly good year for the fruit? Also, what varieties are we looking at in the pictures? Thanks, great shots.


----------



## ibglowin

Perhaps a little cluster thinning is in order?

They look great!


----------



## Rocky

ibglowin said:


> Perhaps a little cluster thinning is in order?
> 
> They look great!








This may be the key to my observation. Thinning out the clusters, I imagine, would result in fewer and larger bunches of grapes at harvest, right? If the clusters are not thinned, there would be many but smaller bunches. Implicit in all this is that fewer and larger is better, right?


----------



## grapeman

Rocky the first shots are of Marquette and Mn1200, both cold climate reds. The 4 Arm kniffen ones are Frontenac and Leon Millot- one from the University of Minnesota and the other an old French/American Hybrid. 


I need to get through bloom before I worry about thinning. LOL. I will do some thinning, but I believe in letting those extra clusters help keep the vigor in check until mid to late July, then thin them out. Rocky thinning can lead to larger clusters which is not necessarily the desired effect. With wine grapes you desire small grapes, that increases the skin and seed to juice ratio. That leads to more and better tannins an phenolics. Juice is basically just sugar water. You need some goodies from the skins and seeds to give it the tannin and structure.


I do track all this so I have a handle on production #clusters and cluster weight. Here is a small segment of one years data./images/uploads/20110614_102053_HarvestClusters.pdf


----------



## Scott B

Very Nice!


----------



## Rocky

Rich, 


Life is interesting. Somehow many of the things one experiences and witnesses do not make any sense at the time but as one ages, it all begins to make more sense. I am 69 butwhen I was about 6 or 7 and making wine with my Father and Grandfather, I remember going with them to the produce yards in Pittsburgh to buy California grapes. My Grandfather made all the selections and we would buy Muscat and a red grape to complement it in a ratio of 1 white to 3 red. We would buy enough grapes for from 2 to 6 barrels, depending on existing inventory and cash on hand.


The reds were either Alicante or Zinfandel. Our job, as children, was to strip the grapes from the stems prior to crushing. The kids (and there were a bunch of us, brothers and cousins) preferred the Zinfandel because they were larger and easier to strip. My Grandfather, on the other hand, all other things being equal, would buy the Alicante for a number of reasons, including the price, quality and sweetness. They were much smaller and harder to strip. I did not understand why he would do this until I read your reply, above. The ratio of skin area to volume was higher and it must have made a better wine. I am not sure my Grandfather knew why it made a better wine, other than from experience.


Thank you for the information. It was a better answer than what we used to get from our Grandfather. When we'd say, "Poppy, why are you buying the Alicante rather than the Zinfandel?" Because at that time children were to be seen and not heard, he would reply, "'Atsa why!"


----------



## grapeman

Thanks for sharing that with us. From now on I will tell all that ask the same thing "atsa why!" as I gesture to the grapes and have them sip a glass of wine from those ittty bitty grapes.


----------



## grapeman

By the way, in this picture it is of Scott Henry and the lower arms will be turned down very soon. Notice both rows point up. Soon the upper ones will still point up, but the lower ones will point downward.


----------



## ibglowin

Hey, atsa good story Rocky!


----------



## BonnieJoy

Absolutely Stunning Pics. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Randoneur

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I understand the thinning effect - if you thin during flowering you will produce larger clusters and larger grapes and the vine will make up for the loss and still produce the same in weight. If you wait until verison to thin, you will produce better fruit but less fruit and less stress on the vine. The vine will not compensate by making grapes or clusters larger. The benefit verizon thinning is more even ripening of the clusters that are left, and of course you can get rid of clusters that are not desired. I do verizon thinning only.


----------



## rrawhide

Thanx Rich - keep the pictures coming. I need to thin too but will wait until Verizon, i think!!


Rick


----------



## grapeman

Mark as far as I am concerned you are correct. When I said I will thin some, it is generally shoot thinning only to adjust for secondary and tertiary shoots growing. I have too much to do to be pinching individual clusters off at this point. Generally speaking those secondary and tertiary shoots have much smaller and malformed clusters- take off the shoots and you take off those clusters also- accomplishing two goals at once.


----------



## Randoneur

I need to start doing some of that. I'm sure it would even out my vines a bit so that some areas would not fill in so much. 












Rocky - I really enjoyed that story of your Grandfather!


----------



## grapeman

Here are a few more pictures. I took quite a few and will post with descriptions later.


----------



## Rocky

Rich, really looking good. Will you be looking for pickers in October? I will work for wine!


----------



## Runningwolf

Everything is really flourishing now. Looks great


----------



## grapeman

Those with the droopy leaves are some trained to Scott Henry system. I turned the bottom shoots down today. You brush the shoots in front of one of the wires and move it down. That rotates that cordon and all the shoots point down. It gives separation to the two fruiting zones.


Flourishing is an understatement. It is a challenge getting through the vineyard for anopy management between rainstorms and working the tasting room and going to markets.


So far I have picked 95 percent of the grapes myself but may need a few helpers this year. I would say come on over, but it is a fair trip from Ohio!


----------



## Wade E

Thats very interesting. If I did something like that thats what they would look like and Id e freaking out!!!!!!


----------



## grapeman

It has been about a month and a week since I last posted. Things have really progressed. They have gone from bloom to early veraison in that time. I have been so busy, I haven't got many updated pictures. I got a few minutes today to check things out a bit and the Mn1200 grapes are in early veraison. The rest should begin in a week or two since they are a bit later. The Niagara grapes are about nickel size and truely loaded this year. That's OK with me as it is a great seller here.


----------



## paubin

Can't wait for the new pic's Rich, I've been planning my own vines so long it's driving me crazy. I live my dream though yours and others vineyards. Still looking for that perfect property down here in the southern tier of NY that will give me room for my kennel, grapes/orchid and possibly a horse or two. So when I say I need more pics, be leave me that you could be preventing serious mental breakdown...lol.

Pete


----------



## grapeman

I really do need to update the pictures. Things have been growing like gangbusters and are beginning to frighten me a bit. The vines are all so laden this year that I honestly don't know how I will be able to pick them all alone. OH WELL, I will try- just one cluster at a time...........






I will need a lot more storage this year. I began to build that up as I ordered 8-70 gallon Flextanks today. I also got but never used last year a couple bags in a box type things. One holds about 80-100 gallons and the other 150-200 gallons. I need to build the boxes that hold them and they will be ready to go. I will need more fermenting tubs/Brutes and maybe another batch of picking lugs.


Since I don't have enough nets or the time to net yet, I put in place a Bird Gard Super Pro deterrent system. It sounds like a jungle out there!


Good luck to everyone with their own vineyards.


----------



## Wade E

Man, you did your vineyard so well youve outgrown yourself!!!!! LOL, I guess thats a great problem to have, I think!


----------



## paubin

Rich, with a little luck, your harvest time will coincide with my days off and I could come give ya a hand during harvest. When you figure you're about a week from picking give me a yell and I'll do my best to give ya a hand for a day or two.

Pete


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Rich, in your response to the post on my thread you said that things look like they are on par with last year's schedule. When do you anticipate the beginning of harvest this year? What are the early ripeners, and what are the last?


----------



## grapeman

Not much time now to answer, but harvest is anticipated to bein about mid-September and then run through when they are all ripe and picked.Early ripeners are Mn1200, Marquette, St Pepin, St Croix and a few others and finish up with Catawba at the end around early to mid- October.


----------



## grapeman

In order to get some pictures in here, I am just posting them here. They are all part of my training system trial a few pages back. These are all three year old vines.

Check out page 184 to see these same vines early this season.


----------



## ibglowin

Thats a boatload of fruit Rich. Looking good indeed!





About time to net?


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich the vines look great. Looks like it'll be a good harvest indeed!


----------



## grapeman

I have started to net as I can- just no enough time for everything. I have two Bird Gard chips alternating in the Bird Gard with 5 speakers set out. I netted the corner closest to the trees and have called in a friend with his crossbow to try to keep the turkeys out. 


It is a boatload of grapes for third year vines. I figure they have the cropload of normal 5 year old vines, maybe more. I checked the brix levels today and the reds are close to 20 brix and the whites run about 18.


I got in 8 -70 gallon Flex-Tanks on Thursday. I hope I am bustin' at the seams with storage this fall. I am almost out of whites for the season and I had 3-400 gallons or about 1500 to 2000 bottles this spring.


----------



## ibglowin

Wow, just an amazing output for 3 yr old vines. You sir have a green thumb!


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## paubin

Awesome Rich! Hope thatElaine didn't reak to much havoc.

Pete


----------



## grapeman

I now have some videos of the Training Systems Trial on YouTube. 
Here is a link to the first and you should be able to see all 5.
Video 1
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYcHCzRjORw&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYcHCzRjORw&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL[/ame]


Video2:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAmEHva-N9I&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL"]http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAmEHva-N9I&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL[/ame]


Video 3:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IKNtQpfk1M&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IKNtQpfk1M&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL[/ame]


Video 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi***RA-Izs&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL


Video 5:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekiGFM0OPk&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aekiGFM0OPk&amp;feature=mfu_in_order&amp;list=UL[/ame]


----------



## AlFulchino

videos look great Rich!


----------



## Wade E

Rich, you are da man. That place looks awesome.


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## ibglowin

You missed another calling in life. You could so do VO (voice over) work! 

Vines look great!


----------



## OilnH2O

Really interesting differences between the different systems. 

It is also interesting to me to see how much your vines have prospered, considering our "mutual" late spring and rains. Thanks, Rich!

Dave


----------



## vinividivici

Wow! Fantastic, Rich. And great pictures, too.

Cheers!

Bob
(vinividivici on the other forum)


----------



## hannabarn

YOU DA MAN, RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## grapeman

After examining the vineyard closer, I did suffer significant damage in the vineyard. It was not from grapes being blown off or anything like that, but infrastucture damages. A number of earth anchors pulled right out of the ground from the soil being saturated and plasticized along with the weight of a heavy crop. This allowed the top wire to droop quite a lot between posts. It will need to wait until after harvest to try to replace them and restretch the wires. 


Along with that, a number of rows almost blew over. Some are leaning 20-30 degrees from vertical. The posts lean quite a bit with a few having opened up about 8 inches next to the post in the soil. This also exposed the fruit more to the birds so more damage may occur. Vermont got all the press, but our side of the lake was hit almost as bad. A number of towns were cut off here as the bridges washed out. 


Today's market in Ausable was canceled as our lot where we hold it was 15 feet under water in the flood and has not been cleaned up yet.


The town where the market is normally Sundays that was cancelled last week flooded very badly. The fire station was obliterated and even left Governor Cuomo aghast when he saw the remains. The market field is still flooded so it is not going on this Sunday. As a show of support some of us vendors decided to hold a Farmer's market the next town over which also took it hard. We want to show the area our support. In order for me to attend I needed to contact the head of the dept at NY Ag and Mkts today to get it designated a bonafide market to allow wine sales. He knew of the plight of the region and expedited it so it can come together. Amazing what a couple calls can do in a time of crisis when placed to the right people. We are donating our rental fees ( at a minimum) to the cause of the town. Expecting 2-4 inches of rain possible this weekend. We really don't need it............................


----------



## vinividivici

Rich,

Sorry to hear that. We had a very soggy springtime and now a repeat in the fall.

It brings up a question, though. Do commercial vineyards carry insurance for crop destruction? 

Bob


----------



## ibglowin

Wow, hope you can manage to hobble through to a successful harvest in a few weeks. Do you normally net the entire vineyard or just certain trouble spots and or varieties?


----------



## grapeman

I normally net the whole thing, but this year I am just doing the areas with most pressure so far. I have the Bird Gard going constantly during the day. We are increasing the netting as often as we can. It is a PITA to deal with, but it beats the wildlife eating the whole crop.


----------



## Scott B

How does the Bird Gard work? Loud Sound?


----------



## grapeman

It is a series of bird distress calls through vineyard mounted speakers.


----------



## vinividivici

I was told by a commercial vintner that the bird distress sounds worked for the first three years or so and then the birds got used to it and pecked away at the grapes.


----------



## grapeman

That is the general consensus. Like I have said repeatedly about this, I am using it as an emergency backup only. I have been overworked, overstressed and short on time in the vineyard to do full canopy management and bird netting. I figure limited protection is better than no protection at all. Right now I need to make what money I can. The crops are hanging full and heavy and harvest isn't far away.


----------



## Runningwolf

I understand with any bird deterent is to not be consistent. Don't play it the same time eveyday and if possible play different speakers at different times or move them around. Another thig that works good along with that is the Bird of prey kites. My buddy has several of those he fly's on long pvc poles and they also seem to help (as long as there is a slight breeze).


----------



## vinividivici

appleman said:


> That is the general consensus. Like I have said repeatedly about this, I am using it as an emergency backup only. I have been overworked, overstressed and short on time in the vineyard to do full canopy management and bird netting. I figure limited protection is better than no protection at all. Right now I need to make what money I can. The crops are hanging full and heavy and harvest isn't far away.



Wish I lived closer, Rich, to help you. Do you do manual harvesting or machine? Volunteer pickers?


----------



## grapeman

LOL,
I am the mechanical harvester. I do get a rare bit of help, but do about 90% alone by hand.


----------



## Wade E

Rich, I think you need to get a Falcon now!


----------



## grapeman

Here is a picture of 3 year old Marquette vines with side netting on. Notice how Irene tipped the posts quite a bit. It is about 25 degrees in this picture.


----------



## DBell

Shoulda got a Falcon!




Those grapes look yummy.


----------



## gaudet

Just play some Barry Manilow thru the speaker system and you might see the birds fall from the sky


----------



## Wade E

Rich, are you getting all the rain that we have been getting now? I truly hope not!!!


----------



## grapeman

We have gotten some more rain today, but the heaviest of it is yet to come. I have been figuring on beginning to work on an ark soon.


----------



## Wade E

We had it hard all day the other dayand mild on and off today and all the rivers are back to flood or over flood stage again. Glad I started salt water fishing this year as I have no idea when Im going to be able to touch a river again!!! Rich, Im sorry you are going to get this. Your poor vineyard has been through hell these last few years with the hail the other year and drought a year back if I remember correctly and now all this crap this year. It must a true love to keep going through all this every year!!!!!


----------



## Waldo

Has been, "Feast or Famine" everywhere this year it seems


----------



## Wade E

Oh man is it down pouring over here again!!!!


----------



## ibglowin

We couldn't buy rain to save our lives back in June and the beginning of July but we have had a really wet end of July, all of August and now even first week of September. 

It pored like crazy last Sunday while I was grilling some steaks (of course) most of the night. 

Poured like crazy for an hour yesterday with small hail mixed in at times. I had the S2000 at work and had to run out in the rain and move it under an awning until the hail and rained passed.

One Summer ( a few years ago now) we had golf ball sized hail so bad it broke out windows and destroyed any car it fell on (and there were plenty).


----------



## Runningwolf

Man I don't even know what to say except I hope you guys get a break soon. Our weather wet all spring and dry all summer and now it is just cooler then usual. My wife just got back from Penn State and said it rained the whole time but she only got the tail end of what all of you are getting in the eastern seaboard. Good luck everyone.


----------



## paubin

So how much rain did ya get Rich. We got pounded down here and everything is flooded still. Some of the towns across the border in PA are under 8 ft of water. Hope you are on higher ground and didn't get that much.


----------



## rhoffart

Wade said:


> Oh man is it down pouring over here again!!!!



Send it this way ... 100 year oaks are dying, haven't seen rain in over 3 months. Fires everyday. Half the people in the Hill Country have no water ... their wells have gone dry.


----------



## grapeman

We lucked out here and did not get the rains this last time. It stayed about 30 miles south of us and we only got less than a quarter inch of rain right here this time. Man have the grapes swollen up. They are about twice as big as they should be. They look like table grape clusters right now.


----------



## grapeman

It has been a bit since I got any pictures so I will just post a bunch here. A couple showing what looks like great Marquette. Then there are some showing what we ran into with them and all season- rot! A lot of grapes went to waste, but I was still able to make a fair amount of wine. With any luck I should be all picked in another week. Then there are a few inside the winery showing some of the primaries (brutes). Then a couple of some of the Flextanks I got this year. One shows how I will fill them from the brutes- with the vacuum system. I only need to hook the second hose with the racking can and turn it on. I tested it to full vacuum with no collapse. Hopefully it will work great. I will report on that in a day or so when I actually do it.


----------



## ibglowin

So sad about all the Marquette! Just too much rain?

Winery is growing like gang busters for sure. Have you finished or done much else to the tasting room this Summer?


----------



## AlFulchino

glad your almost done w harvest Rich...you will have time to breath at that point...there is a new fruit fly in new england now...my friend at UNH said it came from the south and west..it is dropping the eggs onto good fruit and when they hatch they are burrowing into the fruit while the traditional fruit fly depends on already openned fruit..he was recommending the speeding up of harvest on some slightly under ripe fruit so that people had time to get the juice and also get the whole harvest in

all the best..let us know how your vacuuming of the must after press works getting into the tanks w/o clogs....


----------



## Wade E

Bummer about the rot Rich. How did all the other grapes hold out with all this crappy rain?


----------



## grapeman

I have been battling rot and mold and bees and splitting all season long. The grapes aren't as ripe as I would like, but I have had to pick sooner rather than later on all varieties. The Frontenac had been holding up pretty good, but today even they were molding badly and about 1/3 to 1/2 were thrown away as we picked. Tomorrow we pick the Niagara and if any time left some more Frontenac.



Al, I have racked after pressing with whites using vacuum and you do clog once in a while, but keeping the cane off the bottom helps. I also wear work shoes while racking. I never wear clogs to rack.


----------



## grapeman

I almost forgot............ the marmorated stinkbug also came in on Irene with the wind. I saw a swarm of young ones a couple days after the storm and now there are adults showing up all over. Then the ladybugs have also moved in and are feeding on the grapes. Now don't forget the hard frost tomorrow night also- about 29 expected. 


I really think I will be glad if I make it through this year....


----------



## AlFulchino

we have tallied about 32000 pounds thus far....versus 16k last yr....i was in over my head so i asked customers and friends and they were a huge help!..could not have done it w/o them....yesterday we crushed and destemmed 6000 pounds and then pressed and pressed and presses...today was rainy so it was a rack and bottling day...tommorrow we man the press again...been using some tem food barrels until my next round of aging tanks arrive ( hopefully next week)..it is a tiring time of year...but then again none of it was spent in a traffic jam to and from some workplace


----------



## BonnieJoy

Rich - that just stinks to have lost so much of your crop! The weather severity and swings has been about as bad as I can ever recall. On a more positive note, your winery is really looking good. Like those flextanks.


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich sorry to hear about the harvest, it has certainly been a challenging year for you. Winery looks great!


----------



## rrawhide

wow Rich you be comin' on strong!!! Stay healthy and get some rest too!!


Good luck 


Rick


----------



## bilbo-in-maine

Rich, that's amazing to hear of your losses to mold and rot. I would have imagined that your careful spray program would have kept things in check. It is a testament to how bad the weather events have been right from the start last spring, wet and cool then, soaking wet at the end now. That is a lot of good fruit lying on the ground. Now I don't feel so bad about the disease pressure I battled for the last two months, obviously I wasn't the only one. I hope your season turns out positively for you with great wine and good sales.


----------



## grapeman

Bill this year no amount of spraying alone was enough to afford protection. We had 8 inches of rain in May and June each, then it was too dry for July and August and then 8 inches of rain again in September, which swelled the fruit so fast they split, allowing for penetration of the spores. We have only 3 varieties left to pick and should have about 20 percent more than last year when done, so it isn't as bad as it could have been.


In farming.............. there is always next year!


----------



## AlFulchino

and there is wine to drink this winter


----------



## grapeman

Update on the vacuum racking to the flextanks. It does not work. I tried it this afternoon. When I got the wine almost to the tank, it sucked the crown of the tank down and the sides bowed in under only 5 inches of vacuum. I cannot recommend doing it as a result of this. I used my pump instead which uses a one inch food grade hose. It took 20 minutes to pump 3 partial Brutes to fill a 70 gallon tank.


----------



## Wade E

Oh well, at least you were prepared with the heavy duty back up! Thanks for being the guinea pig! LOL


----------



## AlFulchino

i know this my flex's cant be vacuumed either  tried thata few yrs ago hehehehe


----------



## grapeman

The funniest part of the test vacuuming is what I did a few days ago. I had read where people had done it with the 30 gallon ones so I figured I would try it. I rigged up a fitting to put on the lid. I hooked up the machine and turned it on, expecting it to take a while to draw vaccum. I gave it a few seconds and looked at the guage- 20 something inches of vaccum. AH sucess, it held!!! 


Today I hooked it all up, started to draw wine and it was taking forever to draw it up through the tube. When it got to about 5 inches, the wine was about a foot away from the opening and it held there. I thought well maybe I bumped the orange cap and it isn't tight so I pushed down slightly to seat it. Almost immediately, POP, down whent the crowned top of the tank and the side sucked in a bit. I quickly turned it off and said "Oh sh*take Mushroom"


I then had and AH Hahhhh moment! When I tested it I hadn't drilled out the opening in the top of the tank fitting yet, so when I tested it, all I was testing was my fitting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wade E

You silly!


----------



## AlFulchino

cool!!!! good for you!!!!!


----------



## grapeman

Sorry for the page bump but I want the post to start a new page.


----------



## grapeman

At the risk of finding mistakes in it, here is a link to my Online Store. Look around. You can use PayPal if you want to order. Include your phone number in special instructions in case of an error. After using PayPal to pay it will take you back to the cart and be sure to submit it from that page to complete the transaction.


http://hipvineyard.mybigcommerce.com/
Let me know how it works for you. I know there will be a lot of room to improve.


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## Wade E

Post whore!!!! Bwaaa haaaa haaaaa


----------



## grapeman

Some days, I just love my job as resident Winemaker at Hid-In-Pines Vineyard. Yesterday I tasted the Marquette to see how it is progressing. I have two batches going, one from 3 year old vines and one from some a bit older. The 3 year Marquette has an almost identical taste to the 2008 Lincoln Peak Marquette I had for New Years dinner. That one won the 2009 International COld Climate Wine Competition in Minnesota. The older Marquette is even better! I am really quite excited by this as this years grapes were not spectacular!


Today I just got done pulling a thief of Petite Amie- a cold hardy white wine grape from David MacGregor where he made the cross in Minn. WOW, I'm blown away by this at this time. It has the best aromatics I have gotten from the grape so far. A nice rose floral fragrance leaning towards muscat, but not really. It is nice and full bodied, flavorful, moderate alcohol and leaves a nice bit of tannin on the finish. Unusual in an aromatic white. 


I may just have to go pull another sample......................................


----------



## ibglowin

You shipping out of state yet?


----------



## grapeman

I am shipping out of state now. If you try to buy from a state not allowed (we can ship to 38 states), you will get an error message.


----------



## Waldo

Can you ship "Marinades"anywhere


----------



## grapeman

The "Winery" cannot ship marinades everywhere. Just can't risk it.....


----------



## grapeman

Well after a winter of record warmth and lack of snow, winter has arrived the last couple days. Thursday and Friday brought a touch of snow and we got about 5 inches to coat things up a bit. Then the colder weather came back. Yesterday it was about -5F and right now at almost 8AM it sits at -17F. That oughta freeze a few buds of the tender varieties! Who the heck was complaining about not having winter!


----------



## Wade E

Rich, it sure wasnt me! I was loving this new winter style and hope this continues to happen!


----------



## FL Steve

Ok, I 'fess up. That is exactly what the Finger Lakes was concerned about. Sorry about that, we wanted teens at night for a few weeks to get things in a deep slumber, not the Siberian express. Are you planning to do a test Rich or are you just going to let it ride knowing you have some damage?

We got about a foot, covered the grafts and supposed to be +15 today. Guess what? 45 and rain by Tuesday. Make up my mind!


----------



## grapeman

Steve I always cut buds up here to evaluate damage before pruning. This is the reason we delay pruning here until March. It is normal weather here. It had cooled down and never really got hot so I am sure the vines were still in as good of shape as we can expect. It just reinforces why we need cold climate grapes here!


----------



## Runningwolf

Holy smokes Rich, I thought I was cold at -8*. Last week I was outside racking and cleaning tanks without a coat. What a quick switch in temps we got. 
Not complaining though. The real winter is just beginning this year compared to years past where it would begin shortly after Thankgiving.


----------



## FL Steve

Rich you certainly live in some nice country but you can have those midwinter drops in temperature. Aren't you the warm spot along the east side of the mountains? I've been up along the St Lawrence in the winter, it is so cold there I am surprised they can even grow grass, let alone grapes.


----------



## grapeman

Yea, we are the warm side of the state (upstate anyways). That is about the coldest it gets here. Saranac Lake gets to about 38-40 below and Massena and surrounding areas by the St Lawrence get to about -40.


----------



## OilnH2O

Rich, I'm afraid all our thoughts of how nice _global warming_ has been to us this winter are nearing an end, too! Wx folks say our warm (above freezing) days and cool (occasional high teens, mostlymid-20's) nights with mountain snows and valley flurries are changing to a major system later this week. I've had to "blow" the driveway only once this winter, and that was only a couple inches. Worst part is no snow cover on the ground to help insulate it -- so we have green grass. But, supposed to have three days of snow this week so winter may be coming! It's a 'la nina' year!


----------



## Wade E

The way it was looking for awhile I think Rich was contemplating planting some Cab Sauv!!!! LOL


----------



## grapeman

Well it was much warmer this AM - only -11F and it is supposed to rise to 28 overnight along with a couple inches of snow. It was -27F this AM in Saranac Lake 50 miles away. They can keep it over there!


----------



## OilnH2O

"Don't forget your sweater!"


----------



## grapeman

I just got a bit of good news for those of you who follow my exploits. I just got notice that my application for a Northeast SARE Grant (Sustainable Agricultural Research and Education) has been approved for the upcoming year. This means I will have means to continue the training system research trial at my vineyard. It will help pay me for time spent along with an assistant to help with data collection and sample collection in the trial. This information can prove to be quite valuable to any growers of cold climate grapes and lead to higher production of higher quality fruit along with using less chemicals in the environment. I am really excited to be able to continue with this work.


----------



## ibglowin

Very good news indeed! Looking forward to another years worth of data!


----------



## OilnH2O

Congrats, Rich -- I think this work helps us all -- glad you're able to build on what you've already done!


----------



## grapeman

After spending the last few days doing a bit of pruning in the vineyard, I woke up to a coupleinches of a really stick snow this AM. Tomorrow we are supposed to get about 6 inches. Nothing like late winter in the Champlain Valley!


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## ibglowin

Gorgeous! Thanks for posting.




I would love to get some higher res ones for desktop screensaver etc.!


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## fivebk

It probably just seems like cold to you, but I think those are some beautiful pics!!!!!

BOB


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## Wade E

Rich, you can keep the snow up there and leave the almost 69* temps over here!!!!!


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## Dean

We've got an early spring here so far. Everything is 2 to 3 weeks earlier. Hopefully this makes up for last year where it was the coldest spring on record, and everything was 3 to 4 weeks late. Harvest was pathetic.


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## Wade E

Rich, I said to keep the snow there, you must have misread my post as I woke up this morning to 4" of snow!!!


----------



## grapeman

I predict you may get more, although I think it is coming from the southwest and traveling northeast, so you might not get the blast from this afternoon we got here.


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## grapeman

Wade I hope you don't get what we got. Everybody kept asking for snow, so we got more. We now have 8 inches of heavy wet snow on the ground on top of the other days snow. YUCK!!! Enough that I need to plow the driveway, and that is a half day job. The wind is gusting over 40 mph and visibility is about 10 feet along with 25 degree temps. Wade I'm gonna send it over so watch out!


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## OilnH2O

And people wonder why I say, "Global Warming?_ Bring it on!_"


----------



## Wade E

I hear you there buddy. Rich, I didnt get that much. Looks like we will be getting approx 6" tomorrow night though



!


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## Dean

yeesh! I just saw the weather report for Boston/New York/Connecticut. Damn, I feel for you guys.
This morning was sunny, but as I got on my motorcycle to commute into work, it was like I was entering a strange land. Usually Vancouver is the one without snow and the outlying areas that I live in get it. Today was opposite. I thought it was a great day to ride in. As I got closer to the city the snow was getting deeper and deeper. Finally the console on my bike started to say "ICE", to tell me to be afraid, VERY afraid.
I hope you guys thaw out soon and get rid of all that damn snow.


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## Wade E

Well we ended up getting about 2 inches and then it turned to rain and washed it away! Yeah baby!


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## grapeman

Another 6 inches here of wet sticky snow. At least it is close to freezing. Some reports predict another foot this weekend. YUCK!


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## Bartman

My kids would love that. As it is here in Dallas, they are being forced to play on the playground in short sleeves with these 75-80 degree afternoons. Oh, how we envy you northerners with the "fun" weather!


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## Wade E

Bart, if I could reach through this screen why Id!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## grapeman

For those of you over here on Winemaking talk that haven't been over to Fine Vine Wines Forum, this is my thread on my vineyard from beginning to today as a small commercial winery. I will update this as time allows. I hope most of the pictures are back working after some being gone due to previous forum upgrades. Tex has done a great job in migrating the FVW forum and pictures.


----------



## jacko

What type of grapes are popular for north yorkshire


----------



## jacko

How do I go about making cuttings from vines?


----------



## grapeman

I have no idea what grapes are popular in north yorkshire since I live in New York in the US. 

Hardwood cuttings are easy to make. Just take the prunings you remove from the wood and cut them up into pieces about 3 buds long. Use the ones about the size of a pencil. Make sure when they are planted that the buds point upward. To do that when you cut them, cut the bottom flat about a half inch below the bottom bud. Count up 3 buds and make a diagonal cut about an inch above that bud.


----------



## grapeman

The joys of living in Northern NY in the spring has been evident. Like everywhere else in most of the country this early spring had been very warm and changeable. A few weeks ago we got a good snow, then it warmed up. Last week we set 5 daily record highs in a row with it hitting 80. Then it cooled down again and yesterday it was 18 degrees here, Now this AM I got up and the ground is covered with a light dusting of snow. At least the pruning is ahead of schedule so far. 

I have been preparing cuttings to root for my new vineyard expansion this year. I am looking at rooting enough for planting around 3.5-4 acres in late May to early June, depending on speed of growth. After a week on the heat mats, some are showing small calluses. Once they are well formed they go into plug trays and into the greenhouse. As I get things organized and growing better, I will begin showing pictures of the process.


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## ibglowin

Another 3-4 acres...... W0W!!!!! :<


----------



## grapeman

That's right Mike. I am beginning the serious expansion now as I have narrowed my grape choices down for expansion. This expansion is going to be a bit mechanized while maintaining a personal touch. It is all based on practical experiments I have done the last several years.


----------



## ibglowin

Which varieties did you decide on for the expansion?

Are you saying your buying a mechanical harvester!


----------



## grapeman

As I have gone commercial, the varieties i chose are confidential as I am sure I am being monitored by others from my area.

No I will never go with mechanical harvest. Heck it's all I can do to afford mechanical harvesting shears! LOL I am just saying that rather than tending the vines mostly by hand, I will be using mechanization where possible. You will see as I start doing it! The mystery builds.................


----------



## Deezil

I could almost pace back-and-forth with anticipation!

Another 3-4 acres brings the total to...?
And is that total including or excluding the trials your doing?

Cant friggin wait 

..And if you cant tell us which varieties, can ya tell us how many varieties you're expanding?


----------



## robie

Great to read you are expanding. Since expanding is a good thing, sounds like things are on the rise, since you went commercial. That's great to know.

After thinking about all those holes, posts, wire, hose, and plants, I need a rest. 

Just kidding. Hope it all goes well. We are all rooting for you.


----------



## grapeman

So far it will be a total of seven acres. This includes the trials as I am using them just like I do the rest of the vineyard. I am going to use some of what I have learned to expand with. I am looking to streamline the establishment period and costs. Can I suceed? Darned if I know, but I will go out swinging........ I have tried out all the practices before and they are all sound. Now can I translate them into sucess?

I am putting in more varieties than I really should- 5, but I want to expand these varieties. I can tell you two of them are Marquette and LaCrescent. LaCrescent is a keystone to aromatic cold climate wines and almost every blend can benefit from them. I will put in an acre each of those two and the rest will be split among 3 other varieties that although they may not be the best, they sell the best.

If I ever take the rest of the farm back over, I will try to get in about 25 acres. I have lots of options at this point, just not much money. Anybody want to invest? Money goes a long ways here. LOL


----------



## Wade E

Wow Rich, thats great! Sorry, dont have a large fortune to invest into a small fortune. LOL


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, that sounds awesome. I could send some Concords up your way.  Knowing what it costs approximately per acre to put in a vineyard thats pretty awesome your expanding. Glad to hear you're able to start some of your own shoots.


----------



## ibglowin

There is a name for a guy like you.........

Vine Teaser!


----------



## grapeman

I think it is embedded somewhere in these 200 pages of posts, but maybe not because of the size, here is a link to a video I made summarizing two years of progress in the vineyard when I began. It goes from bare ground to a very small crop of grapes and shows wines towards the end. Several of those won medals in the Winemaker Magazine's 2009 contest. Not bad for such young vines.

Here is a link to the video in the Videos section of WineMakingTalk.com
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/video/vines-to-wine-4.html


----------



## Runningwolf

Excellent video Rich!


----------



## Wade E

Awesome job Rich!!!


----------



## ibglowin

Them baby's sure grew up fast! What type of soil do you have? Some of the pics looked to be very sandy. Others not so much.


----------



## grapeman

The soil in the vineyard is extremely sandy in about 3/4 of it and then transitions to a heavier loam with the occasional rock. Yes they did grow very quickly. That's why they were allowed a few grapes the second year to hold them in check somewhat. Anybody that doesn't believe they are the same vines can see the date stamps and landmarks. I thought that it shows the progression of the vineyard through time. Some day I should extend it out a few years and change from the dumb music (that's what was in the slideshow creator).


----------



## grapeman

Dang it is cold outside pruning today. I am still going as I had some feet and leg problems for a few wekks, but it is getting better every day. There was ice on things this AM as it was down to about 28 after hitting 30 by 9PM last evening. Good things only a few vines have reached any sort of budbreak so far. The wind also blew 20-40 mph all day yesterday and overnight. It has calmed town to about 10mph. I had to take a break this AM and come in to thaw my hands. It's a good thing it is sunny out. It will be around 30 tonight and tomorrow night.


----------



## grapeman

A bit of an update here. The vines have really come alive and are in the 1-3 inch stage. I watched the steeley beetles go from an occasional one around the edge to enough that I was concerned because the flower clusters are very tight and they feed on them. I went ahead and applied a spray of Sevin for them and some Manzate for Downy Mildew and Phomopsis. It rained outside today, so I feel my timing of fungicide was right on. I will try to get a few pictures some time in a few days.It really looks great to see things growing again with fresh mowed grass.


----------



## grapeman

*Spring is here!*

The grapes went through budbreak about 10 days ago and the last week has seen some pretty warm weather so I figured I would give my longtime followers some pictures. Some general shots and then a few with the future flower clusters. They look so cute right now all tight but doubling in size each day now.


----------



## grapeman

*More that would not fit.*

And here are the rest.


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## Runningwolf

Rich those are great pictures. I thought you put up a double curtain on your first vines? I remember you making the bracket for the top. Also why did you go with 4x4's instead of the old locust posts. I'm assuming you got the 4x4's on sale for less. Again those babies really look happy! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## grapeman

Dan the small home vineyard is a hodgepodge of training systems, posts, anchors etc. It is meant as a demonstration vineyard for all those things. Folks can stop by when they have a question about anything to do with the vines and I can pretty much show them. The first ones on 4x4's are Frontenac. The ones with the double curtain with brackets are every 4th row in the training system trial. Ther eis a picture in there showing the early growth on it. There is Top Wire Cordon, Modified Geneva Double Curtain, Vertical Shoot Postitioning and Scott-Henry.

I did not have time to mount the backdrop to shoe the vines better. I will do that when I get the chance. I am preparing for a Relay For Life Wine and Cheese Tasting at my place on June 2, so I will be pretty busy until then.


----------



## Deezil

Lookin great Rich!
Can definitely tell spring has sprung around there
Cant wait to see how your season progresses.
Which variety is that, with the double curtain?

Edit: Lol guess we posted at the same time there... Frontenac might be the answer i was lookin for lol


----------



## grapeman

Pictures 4,5,6 in the second set are Marquette where the modofied GDC is. The 4 arm kniffen in the first set is Frontenac.


----------



## ibglowin

Dang, Bud break was 10 days ago and you have that much growth already.......

I am taking my iPad out the my vines and showing them their potential! I have that much and had bud break 4 weeks ago! 

Very nice!


----------



## Deezil

ibglowin said:


> I am taking my iPad out the my vines and showing them their potential!



Gee thanks for making me clean my tv..
I gotta go get another cup of juice too..


----------



## grapeman

When things start growing here, they grow like their life depends on it because they know that it is a short growing season. They held at bud swell for over a month, then one day, they all said, Hey, it's time to grow now- and they did.


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## Wade E

Man, that almost looks like a vineyard! LOL, as usual Rich.that looks so impressive! How are the legs doing?


----------



## grapeman

A few pictures of what we did recently and a view from the upper part of the small home vineyard.


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## Wade E

Very nice, whens the big parking lot going in?


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## ibglowin

Love the look and feel of it. Great pics!


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## grapeman

The sign has letters routered into it and stained mahogany. The HIP logo is also routered in at two depths. The trunks and limbs are deeper than the branches and needles which are stained green. Keith (the one bitten by the brown recluse) did a great job with it. I had him mount it with brown scres hidden in the letters in the curls in them at the ends of the letters.


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## Deezil

That sign looks damn good!
He did a great job


----------



## grapeman

The grapes are growing like weeds here. We have gone past bloom and berry set and they are between BB size and pea size. Here are some pictures in the trial.
Comparing Marquette on TWC(left) and Mod GDC (right)
Then some other shots.


----------



## ibglowin

Wow! Putting mine to shame. Looks like you have caught up to me and almost passed me. Beeutifool!


----------



## ibglowin

I am not seeing a whole lot of lateral shoot growth. Or should I say nowhere near yours. Is that just immature vines or soil nutrients perhaps? I just hit them all with a good dose of fertilizer a few nights ago and already am seeing some new/faster leaf growth. It was about 3 weeks since last dose. I think once we get some moisture they will bust out with more lateral growth (thats what happened last summer anyways) . Just too hot at the moment even with drip irrigation.


----------



## grapeman

Mike what you see in mine is ZERO laterals yet believe it or not! The biggest laterals are on the Mn1200 TWC and those are about 2 inches long. It is all primary shoots! They are really growing like weeds. I probably should fertilize a bit, but am reluctant too until the grapes get a bit more size otherwise they will need a machette to get through them.


----------



## ibglowin

Holy cow!!!!!!!!


----------



## Boatboy24

WOW! Amazing. :<


----------



## GreginND

Boatboy24 said:


> WOW! Amazing. :<



Ditto. Truly amazing.


----------



## GreginND

I hope to have such beautiful vines some day.


----------



## grapeman

Here are a couple more.
The first is St. Pepin on Scott Henry. I love the way it grows on that system. Look how nice and open and full of grapes it is.
The second is Petite Amie on Scott Henry there will be a boatload of grapes on those. Last year's Petite Amie is astounding. I am almost ready to bottle it and will bottle half as totaly dry- very florally, great mouthfeel and citrus fruits bursting at the seams. The other half I will do as a semi-sweet dessert wine.


----------



## Wade E

Praying for a really god year for you Rich!


----------



## grapeman

Wade E said:


> Praying for a really god year for you Rich!


 
Yeah, some times my wife shouts out to me when she says "Oh my God!"


----------



## ibglowin

I need more wine like I need another hole in my head but Rich's Marquette and St Pepin are that good I will be ordering a bunch more of his as soon as it cools down just a bit.

No Bull here. He makes some awesome wine folks!


----------



## GreginND

Can you ship to north Dakota? My wine tasting group is doing a tasting of American wines not from the usual places.


----------



## grapeman

I will check into it.


----------



## Wade E

grapeman said:


> Yeah, some times my wife shouts out to me when she says "Oh my God!"



Uh oh, the spelling police are out again!


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, those vines are looking great. Looks like things are going to be ok for the wine grapes despite those few weeks of bad frosts we had, huh?


----------



## grapeman

We lucked out here Dan. We had no damaging frosts here like arouund the rest of the state. It got as cold, but we were behind them in growth so there was nothing to freeze. Lots of other hurdles to get by though just the same.


----------



## Runningwolf

I think the Concord, Niagara and Fredonia took the biggest hits here. They are the earliest to come out.


----------



## OilnH2O

Our early frosts knocked some of the new shoots back, and even yesterday some of those old, curled and dead leaves that were about an inch long when the frost hit them, were dried up, but still on the canes. But, other buds came along and with the growth you'd never know there was an early frost. And, I've noticed along some of those old, curled and dead areas, new leaves are beginning to emerge. In fact, I've lost more new canes to the wind (at the base) from thunderstorms then I ever lost to the early frost. It's all good... "touch wood" as the Aussies say!


----------



## GreginND

Could you tell me what the advantages/disadvantages of Scott Henry vs 4AK would be? Thanks.


----------



## grapeman

Greg,
I am not sure how much they differ, but with 4 arm kniffen you have two canes or 2 cordons high and two low. The canes all droop down so the upper ones can shade the lower ones.

Scott Henry has 4 arms total, two high and two low, but the wires are only 10-12 inches apart. The upper ones are trained upward VSP style and the two lower ones are trained downward. As you can see in the pictures, the Scott Henry seperates the fruit and cuts down on shading. This is all part of my ongoing training system trial. Like I said before these are very preliminary results as there has been very little research done yet with the cold climate grapes on these systems.


----------



## grapeman

Last year I noted the beginning of veraison on July 31 in the Mn1200. While out spraying tonight, I noted the Mn1200 has begun veraison - almost a week ahead of last year. This is in line with the whole country being early this year. The grapes are even heavier with crop this year in spite of shoot thinning. Now if we can miss another tropical sto4rm this year.........................................


----------



## grapeman

It is time to show some pictures of the grapes. These are mostly from the training systems trial. The first one is of Marquette beginning veraison. Mike these are the same age vines as the ones I gave you that you are hoping make it to the wedding. You should just move the wedding over here!


----------



## grapeman

And here are the St Pepin grapes- a white. There are TWC, ModGDC and ScottHenry and I didn't get any VSP I don't think. My camera is giving me fits. Time for a new one.


The last couple are Chardonel.


----------



## BobF

Very nice, Mr grapeman!


----------



## Runningwolf

Rich, the grapes and vines are really looking great. Thanks for sharing. I always love to see these pictures and hear how things are going.


----------



## grapeman

If you look at the first set-picture number 7, you will see some weeds under the vines. I left some to help suck out some vigor. I can only imagine what it would be like if we had more rain. June was only 2 inches total and July a bit over one and a half.

Mike, I think I mad a mistake. I planted the trial and then sent you vines the next spring from the leftovers before I mowed them down. Look what you have to look forward to!


----------



## ibglowin

Oh, so now you try and back peddle to make me feel better! Even if those are a year older geese louise! My Marquette are TINY in comparison. The Noiret and Corot Noir are sorta close to that size. I am picking Marquette tonight if they pass Brix test! We have another warm week ahead so everything will be gone I think by wedding day.....


----------



## OilnH2O

It is _amazing_ to me, Mike, to think you're close to picking! Still green up here!


----------



## ibglowin

I picked 3 vines yesterday evening. Brix was 25, 25, 24. Have 3-4 more about 21-22 Brix so maybe by this weekend. We have high pressure ridge over us this week so no monsoonal moisture and HOT temps predicted so another great ripening week for the grapes. Corot Noir and Noiret are way way behind the Marquette.


----------



## grapeman

I ordered another 5000 feet of netting yesterday afternoon as we will need to start netting soon. I think I will build an applicator to go onto the tractor like this one. It would make life much easier. The downside is it takes 4 people to use it properly.
http://www.plantra.com/BirdNetting/BirdNettingVideo.aspx


----------



## GreginND

That netting applicator sure looks nifty.


----------



## Wade E

That netting app is awesome, cant you get one of those apps for a smartphone? LOL I must say there is nothing better then grapes maturing on the vine and pics of them! Its just romantic!


----------



## tfries

I made an applicator based on the one in that video. Used 2" PVC, some rings and other stuff. Total cost was about $20. I already had the Carry-all it is attached to. There is a chain on the boom that connects to the frame to hold it in place over the top of the vines. Our netting is 1700' long.


----------



## ibglowin

Very nice!



tfries said:


> I made an applicator based on the one in that video. Used 2" PVC, some rings and other stuff. Total cost was about $20. I already had the Carry-all it is attached to. There is a chain on the boom that connects to the frame to hold it in place over the top of the vines. Our netting is 1700' long.


----------



## grapeman

Good job tfries. I was just headed out the door to buy another carry all. I can't buy the steel for the price they charge for the assembled thing. I will use steel to build the cage as in the video. I have used PVC pipe the past few years to apply the netting, but my arms get tired holding it up. This will let the tractor do the work.


----------



## grapeman

We got the applicator finished yesterday all but a paint job for it. That will wait for a few days until after we use it. We tried it out this afternoon and netted an acre in around an hour without ever using such a contraption. One of the boys said"Now this is the way to put the netting on." as he rode the machine paying the net out as I drove along. We had one boy on each side sprading the net out as we went and let it drape to the ground. We will do the rest in the trial section tomorrow. It is just in time also as veraison is taking on a frantic pace and the grapes turning more each day. Some are around 15 brix at color change. I hope we can delay harvest a few more weeks.

I will get some pictures of it soon and see if I can get one while using it to show how it works.


----------



## grapeman

At the risk of eye injury to you, here are a few pictures which includes me and my son Rick.
First up is Marquette on Scott Henry (2 pics). Notice the upper foliage and shoots going downward also and the fruit is in the middle.

Next a pic of St. Pepin with one small closeup of one spot on one out of 4 cordons using 4 canes-one each for trunks and cordons. Then the whole vine.

Rick with TWC

Then Marquette on the backside of the Mod GDC Marquette.


----------



## ibglowin

Holy cow you could walk under the Marquette in that last pic. Looks like the top is over 7-8ft!

Grapes are looking excellent. You are definitely behind me in Marquette ripening.

Any guesstimates on harvest yield this year?


----------



## grapeman

We are both vertically challenged and only about 5'6". The top wire is around 6' 8" so the fruit hangs a nice height to pick. We only began veraison about 8-10 days ago but still ahead of a typical year here. The Mod GDC looks to be around 30 to 35 pounds per vine right now or about 10-12 tons per acre - more than normally should hang to ripen, but hey, this is a trial and I am not artificially influencing things by thinning a lot. Just some leaf pulling and hedging where needed. They all began with a similar bud count per foot of fruiting wire.


----------



## ibglowin

That's like 2g finished wine per vine or about twice normal.... 

You better have some good help this Fall at harvest!


----------



## grapeman

Yes it is, but that is only 3 rows of that system for now out of a couple acres. Overall yield will be about half that or so. I will likely be using that training system for the new almost 4 acre vineyard so in a few years I will certainly need more picking help. We routinely get about a gallon and a half per St Pepin already, sometimes 2. That's why I cringe when I hear people say you can't ripen over 4 tons per acre. Why take the crop off when it may not be needed. That's why my trials push the envelope. If I can do it with 2500 GDD, then other areas can also.


----------



## grapeman

Here are some pictures of us installing netting on the training systems trial this evening.


----------



## Runningwolf

Great pictures Rich. That is really cool how you install the netting. I've never seen that before.


----------



## ibglowin

Nothing but net! 

Very nice set up.


----------



## robie

I was curious what to do with long netting when one goes from one row to the next. Looks like you carefully bunch it up on the ground and move over one row.
That's pretty neat.

No doubt that device you made has made stinging the netting much, much easier and cuts down on lots of snags.


----------



## Scott

How does the un-netting go? Same process but backwards?


----------



## GreginND

Yes, I am also interested in what you do after harvest. Do you re-use the nets? Do they get tossed? If they get re-used, is it a pain to roll them all back up?


----------



## tfries

When the nets are removed, you go in the reverse direction. The boom lifts the netting up off of the vines. The person standing on the platform stuffs the netting back into the bag. It is easier to remove than apply. My wife and I were able to do ours by ourselves last season with her stuffing and me driving.


----------



## grapeman

Thanks tfries, that is right. I just got back from double markets today and saw this. Saves time typing. The net is laid across the alleys and is connected. Removal is just what he said and the net is just stuffed back in the bag, which even has a carrying handle. 

I used to do it essentially the same way applying it with a simple boom stick made of PVC pipe with a T glued on the end. The net was lifted into place and the light pole still got heavy after hours of fighting the net on.

We still need to paint it, but wanted to get the net on before the weekend so we used it unpainted.

The nets last about 5 years, but that depends on how long you leave them out in the sun.


----------



## ibglowin

And they don't become a huge tangled mess stuffing them into that bag? Thats incredible!


----------



## grapeman

Not at all Mike. This is unlike the rigid mesh ones you got free which tangle at the drop of a hat and are very hard on your cuticles. This stuff is great, but not quite as durable. It seems to hold birds out better.


----------



## grapeman

Checked some of the grapes today in my really dry one acre vineyard. The St Pepin is getting golden and is running 17 brix with a great flavor. I will probably be picking in a couple weeks. The Brianna and Adalmiina are very tasty but only around 15 brix.

I checked the Frontenac just for the fun of it and got a reading of 17 brix. Man has it been progressing quickly!


----------



## Wade E

Very cool pics Rich. Now if they can only design Christmas lighting that goes on and comEs off that easy with the tangles!!!!!!


----------



## grapeman

The results of the 2012 International Cold Climate Wine Competition are in after the August 16 judging in Minnesota. Two of my wines I enter won medals this year, the first I have entered in this competition. My Petite Amie won a Silver medal in the Dry White Single Varietal and Blends category - mine was 100% Petite Amie. The grape was bred by David McGregor and is a very floral Muscat type white grape. This one was totally dry. I also make one I call Sweet Little Friend mad of the Petite Amie grape. Not much of this grape is grown yet and this is last years harvest from my training systems trial of three year old vines. Not bad for three year old vines.

The other medal was a bronze medal won for the St. Pepin wine made from the three year old St Pepin grapes in the training systems trial also. Everybody still think young vines can't be used to make a nice wine? The grapes are already exhibiting tremendous flavors this year even though the brix is still way shy of harvest. 

I entered these wines in the competition this year not expecting a lot, knowing they were from these very young vines. I was thrilled that they did fairly well for their age. What will these vines be capable of in the future? All from vines that are re-defining yield expectations for cold climate grapes.


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## Wade E

Congrats there buddy, thats awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## grapeman

I shot some pictures in the vineyard yesterday as we picked in the Marquette grapes. You can check more out in the Photo Album section at the Home page here.
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/photo/grapes-&-fruit/


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## grapeman

See the previous page for pictures of the Marquette picked this year from the trial.

When I get the chance I will post some of the results out of the training system trial this year. For the Marquette, it looks like the Vertical Shoot Positioned Marquette yielded a bit over 10 pounds per vine. The Scott-Henry averaged a bit over 15 pounds per vine. The Top Wire Cordon yielded an average of a bit over 20 pounds per vine. The Modified GDC I developed for the trial yielded around 35 pounds per vine. (that is around 12 tons of grapes per acre folks!) These are all Marquette in rows side by side with the same spacing. These are all 4 year old vines!

I also have collected chemistry results several times now for the vines in the trial - 432 vines times (in groups of 9) 4 times with 3-4 tests per vine each time for a total of over 1200 test readings. Interestingly and surprisingly, the Scott-Henry had the worst acid readings consistently over all the varieties. Look for more results over the next couple months.


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## ibglowin

Very interesting results Rich! Thanks for posting the pics. The clusters look nice as usual. Can't wait to see some more results! Hope the new press is working out well for you.


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## GreginND

Looking forward to your results. The amount of grapes on your mod gdc is amazing. Most around here would say that is seriously over cropped. I'm curious about the chemistry between 35 pounds (gdc) and 10 pounds (vsp). I would think you would see more stress on the vines cropping them so much. Perhaps its too early but have you noticed any issues overwintering with your gdc/high cropped vines?

I need to pick your brains at some point about what varieties you thing would benefit from your gdc.


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## grapeman

Greg, everybody would say that the Mod GDC is overcropped, except the Marquette grapes (and St. Pepin and others). These are hybrid grapes and they don't know they should follow human and vinifera rules. They want to grow and multiply, so they do. 

Interestingly the chemistry is similar across all the training systems. The TWC system actually has about the highest brix, followed by the VSP, them Mod GDC and then the Scott Henry. The Mod GDC is best for the TA and Scott Henry the worst. Mod GDC requires the least amount of labor, then the TWC, then Scott Henry and the most labor the VSP. So you work the most to get the least amount of grapes with very similar grape chemistry. Hmmmmmmmmm. Sound like that is THE way to go(VSP)? Not me.

Over wintering problems with the Marquette on GDC? We have noticed here that Marquette is like St. Pepin. You always get at least a few buds closest to the cordons remain intact over the winter. Those become the spurs, so you get a properly pruned vine when done. This spring when we pruned, we got the highest amount of pruned one year old wood from the Mod GDC indicating that the vine produced plenty of wood for growth and ripening a crop.

As a bit of explanation for how it can ripen a crop about as well as VSP, it has a higher total amount of shoots on the vine than the TWC or VSP because of the second fruiting wire. This allows a higher number of clusters per vine (2 clusters per shoot) which keeps the shoot length in check- around 4-5 feet. Since they don't get hedged, you retain a full set of leaves on that shoot which creates sugars and ripens the crop. With TWC and especially VSP, the shoots become too long and must be skirted or hedged. That reduces the leaves per shoot and lessens the amount of sugars produced. As far as acids, it has been suggested that grape vines produce X amount of acid per vine, therefore by increasing the amount of grapes you are reducing the amount of total acid per cluster. The results so far seem to bear this out.

Remember humans once believed that the solar system revolved around the Earth and that Earth was flat. These are not the results I was expecting when I planted the trial vineyard, but I am keeping an open mind about the results. More studies need to be done. Watch for more work being done with the Northern Grapes Project as part of a multi-million dollar multi-state grant done at the universities.


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## GreginND

Your information is invaluable! Thank you!!!

I have been warned by other growers in my area that overcropping could weaken the vines and I would see winter kill. Hence my question. Appreciate your insight.

I have two fields - one has way over the top nitrogen and the other is a little low on nitrogen. For vigorous hybrid grapes like Marquette, I was thinking with the high fertility soil a 2 wire, 4 cordon system like your mod-GDC would help tame them. Would it be wise to stick with a 2 cordon system on the lower fertility soil? 

I'll PM you with some more questions about my vineyard plan.





grapeman said:


> Remember humans once believed that the solar system revolved around the Earth and that Earth was flat. These are not the results I was expecting when I planted the trial vineyard, but I am keeping an open mind about the results. More studies need to be done. Watch for more work being done with the Northern Grapes Project as part of a multi-million dollar multi-state grant done at the universities.



Heh! I'm definitely not a flat earther and since I haven't yet grown grapes, my mind is open to considering all the data. I toured a number of vineyards in eastern ND and western MN last weekend. Most folks use VSP. I've been trying to convince people that there are other systems to try.

I saw a couple vineyards where they were growing the fruit very close to the ground with a fruiting wire about 30 inches. They told me that they always had winter kill above the snow line and had to lower their grapes. Haven't seen that in ND though. Another vineyard was switching from TWC to VSP I believe because of winter and frost issues.


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## grapeman

We are getting there with harvest and now only have Frontenac and Catawba to pick for the year.
Here are a couple pics I posted in the Photos section of the board.
They are pictures taken of Chardonel that we picked today. Man were they beautiful! Great numbers and huge clusters.






















Not a large crop because I have not expanded their numbers yet, but they make some of the best wine I make and it sells out within weeks of introduction every year!


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## ibglowin

Wow, beautiful wine porn!


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## Deezil

Holy Clusters!

Gotta get me a bottle of them there, i do


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## Wade E

Sounds like you need to expand that big time to bring in the $!!!! Looks tell it all there! YUM


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## BobF

Awesome grapes! Quit posting pics like this. I have convinced myself that grapes are too much hassle for too little reward. Let me enjoy my bliss


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## OilnH2O

I like the Chardonel Rich. How do you think it might do for here in Montana? I'm still looking to add a half-dozen vines for white.


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## grapeman

Does toast mean anything to you Dave?

Probably not a good choice there for you. Why not LaCrescent?


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## GreginND

Chardonel is moderately hardy in cold climates. You may be ok down to zone 5a but any colder and it would be spotty I think. I know we can't grow it here in ND. I'd love to as i really like the grape.


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## OilnH2O

La Crescent is on my short list... but you know me - trying to push the Montana envelope! 
(Just trying to get ahead of global warming!  )

(Stay tuned....)


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## grapeman

Winter is settling in on us here and I am not sure I like it a lot. We have had between two and three feet of snow in the last week and we are having some more lingering lake effect snows. It doesn't get as bad here as Runningwolf has it, but I would rather not have quite so much snow. It does help protect the vines from the cold, which is settling in also. Today our high will be what it is now at 12 degrees and we could get close to a record low, with minus 13F expected. 

I am happy to say that I am glad I wait to prune until late winter/early spring. Now if I could learn to take a decent picture with this phone..... oh well ignore the hand in the corner. This one I took last week before the last 15 inches of snow we got.


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## GreginND

Look at all that lovely insulation. We could use a little more of that. I don't miss the shoveling but we have gone from a wrt flood situation to very dry drought in short order.


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## grapeman

We are stil in winter, imagine that mid-January and it is cold. LOL It was -18F on the deck of the house this AM. My digital near the vineyard froze the batteries up and quit working. That's gonna kill some buds...................... Expecting a high today of maybe 0 and then again tonight a repeat of last night.


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## ibglowin

Brrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

Hope you didn't lose too many buds!


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## GreginND

Rich, that is cold. Similar to us right now although we could get even colder. I wonder though if the swings in temperature are harder on the vines than the cold itself. Last year was a mild winter and many vineyards had problems. Tonight we will dip down to -20 and then be up to 30 by Monday. I suspect the swinging temperatures - especially when it rises to near freezing - is harder on the grapes. Is that your experience?


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## grapeman

Day to day mild swings aren't all that bad. As long as the vines got acclimated to the weather before getting really cold, the buds are fairly stable. This is helped even more as the snowpack gets deeper. When the temps have wild swings and warm to above freezing for a week and then get cold, they lose some of their hardiness. A day or two rarely impacts things too badly. This is the coldest it has gotten in 3 years now, but not a lot worse than they were. This is the reason why we wait to prune until towards spring. If we had experinced the fairly mild winter and decided to prune heavily and then get temps like this, we could end up with excessive vigor next year with small crops. By waiting to prune, we can cut buds to evaluate for damage towards spring and adjust bud count numbers to take the damage into account. That way we keep the vines in balance.

And 40 miles to the southwest of home is this castle at the top of Whiteface Mountain near Lake Placid- site of the 1932 and 1980 winter olympics and home to many worldwide winter sporting events


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## grapeman

It seems yesterday was a warmup for today. It is a balmy -22F this AM, but at least they say maybe up to 4F today. It will warm back up to the 20's next week. There goes another 10-20% of the buds...................


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## GreginND

You win! You were colder than North Dakota! We only dipped down to -15.

Can you tell me a little bit more about what you look for in bud damage? When you say you evaluate the buds for damage later in the spring (I presume while still dormant) - what are you actually looking for? I haven't grown any grapes yet. What do damaged buds vs healthy buds look like while dormant? And then how do you prune accordingly?

Thanks.


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## grapeman

Greg the info is probably somewhere in this mamouth post or in the one on the Cornell Baker Farm, but I will find the slides to show you.
Basically you take and prune off a few typical shoots to examine throughout the vineyard to make a representative sample- 100 makes it easy but if you only have a few vines a few shoots will suffice.
Examine buds representative of ones you would like to keep. A magnifying glass or loop helps. Using a one sided razor blade works well. Holding the cane with the tip towards you cut through the bud on an angle about a quarter way down. Look for green within the bud which is sort of like an onion-in layers which become the leaves later. Where you see green indicates live tissue. If all you see is brown, cut a bit deeper and check again. If the whole bud is brown it is dead. If it is streaked, it is damaged but might grow. Record live or dead for each bud checked and if you use 100 buds, the count of live buds gives % live buds or brown count equals dead buds.

Adjusting numbers is pretty straightforward. If you want as an example 50 live buds to provide your shoots and you have 40% dead buds or 60% live buds divide 50 by .60 for 83+ so you need to leave 83 buds to get the desired 50 live buds. I'm sure you get the idea.

Here are 2 videos from Hans Walter Peterson on how to evaluate damage.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RHJ5mY3fAs[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWtr0jzI2Dk[/ame]


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## grapeman

I had a visitor this week in the vineyard, Andy Farmer from Northeastern Vine Supply. Andy came up to help me a bit by pruning out a truckload of St. Pepin cuttings. Andy is a very hands on guy and anyone buying from him can expect one on one service. He may be a bit hard to reach at times because he is always out working his nursery or helping others prune their new vineyards, but the service is great and so are the vines. He specializes in all cold climate grapes some of which will survive -40 F winters.


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## GreginND

I've heard nothing but great things about the quality of his vines. I'm looking forward to the Marquette and Brianna he is sending me this spring.


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## Wade E

Glad to hear you got some help over there Rich and with a guy with great experience is even better. Hope with all your going through you don't get to overwhelmed this year!


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## BobR

grapeman said:


> Here are 2 videos from Hans Walter Peterson on how to evaluate damage.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RHJ5mY3fAs
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWtr0jzI2Dk



So, if the cuttings that I take are all green inside, this does not necessarily mean that the buds are going to be good?


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## grapeman

Exactly Bob. Green stems is a good sign , but if the bud is dead it doesn't matter. The only way to tell for sure is to cut example buds - sacrificing them naturally. Normal 4-5 bud cuttings hedge your bet that one or more of the top 3 will be good and may grow.


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## grapeman

I thought I would note budbreak on about May 2 this year. It varies from spot to spot and varieties, but they are all bursting out at the seams today. Not really much different than the really early year last year except even earlier this year so far for actual budbreak- 80 degrees helps bring them on though. LOL


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## Wade E

grapeman said:


> I thought I would note budbreak on about May 2 this year. It varies from spot to spot and varieties, but they are all bursting out at the seams today. Not really much different than the really early year last year except even earlier this year so far for actual budbreak- 80 degrees helps bring them on though. LOL


Really Rich! It wasnt much earlier last year with the extreme temp difference last year?


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## grapeman

Last year things got ready to break and it cooled down. This year it stayed cool and then went to 80 degrees and has stayed there. It is certainly earlier than last year at this point.


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## GreginND

Our latest first 50 degree day on record was this year (just last week). But our first 80 degree day was yesterday, earlier than last year. Go figure!


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## OilnH2O

Considering we are so similar, so far apart, I wonder how much latitude and sun angle/light factors in? Or if that's one of those "over a glass of wine" topics?


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## grapeman

Well the vines have all sprung into spring. Depending on variety growth is from 1-8 inches of growth at this point. Unfortunately the overnight temperatures don't bode well for them. Tonight's temps are expected to be 28-29 and the next morning about 30. This AM it was about 38 here. I'm hoping we squeak by, but it is COLD right now.


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## ibglowin

Wow, can't believe you have as much as 8" of growth! What have your morning lows been averaging the last couple of weeks? We have been 36-38 degrees (still) since we got back from SOCAL. This AM was finally a balmy 42 with much warmer temps forcasted (both lows and highs) through the weekend. 

Fingers crossed for you Rich! Get those smudge pots, fans and sprinklers going tonight!


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## fivebk

Rich, 

Here in the midwest we have had really screwy weather. I checked the vines I am helping with on thursday and they are just at budbreak. Probably 3 weeks behind last year. I'm a little concerned that if we have an early fall one variety may not ripen completely. I guess I shouldn't worry till the time comes. The temps are supposed to be more " NORMAL " this week, with tomorrow being in the 90's. On a better note last year it was really dry this time of the year and so far this year we have got a good amount of rain. Moisture won't be a problem at least for a little while.

BOB


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## grapeman

The ones that have grown the most are the LaCrescent and Marquette in the new vineyard. They are well out in the open so hopefully the cold air will drain down the slope and keep them from freezing. It has been very dry here. Last week it was in the 70's and 80's and about 45-55 overnight. Now it has gotten cold with high yesterday of about 50 and this am in the 30's. No figuring out weather from year to year!


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## ibglowin

Well, how did you fare this morning?


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## grapeman

Things did not get as cold last night as predicted but we have another cold one coming tonight so I don't dare say........................


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## ibglowin

Saw on FB Father Al was sweating it last night as well. Thinking warm thoughts!


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## grapeman

Thingts did get colder last night and I got a fair amount of frost damage, but it was limited to mostly the new young vines. The frost seemed to hit at the 0-18 inch zone so it was mainly young vines got frosted. They will grow back. At about 25% damage on 4 acres, it amounted to about an acre of vines frozen fairly badly.


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## ibglowin

Thats good to hear Rich!


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## mgmarty

All this talk of frost damage. Should I install something now in my vineyard to sprinkle in case of frost, for next year? There's no way I think I could cover a 60'x30' vineyard. Or should I just realize Im going to have to deal with frost damage. Are smudge pots practical for the backyard vineyard? Just wondering.


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## grapeman

Sprinklers would work but I just rely on chance and a history of little frost damage here. Once it warms up, it usually stays frost free. Today was an exception and it really did not do a lot of damage to thebearing vines. Now it is raining for the first time in almost a month= nature's way of helping the vines recover.


----------



## OilnH2O

grapeman said:


> Thingts did get colder last night and I got a fair amount of frost damage, but it was limited to mostly the new young vines. The frost seemed to hit at the 0-18 inch zone so it was mainly young vines got frosted. They will grow back. At about 25% damage on 4 acres, it amounted to about an acre of vines frozen fairly badly.



I think it is interesting to always remember, the numbers we look to in the past as to highs, lows, last day, first frost day... and so on, are mostly _averages_ and that there are always "outliers." That's what I'm beginning to think after watching all this, albeit only for about 6-7 years.... We all learn from each other, regardless of where in North America we are!


----------



## grapeman

This year is a bit behind last year as bloom goes. Last year by June 10 we were in full bloom. Here it is today June 12 and I would say overall the vines are averaging 10% cap fall and bloom. We should be full bloom in another 2-3 days and finish up in about a week. Overall I would say it is an average year because of the excessive clouds and rain of the last 3 weeks. We had over 6 inches of rain the last week of May and now in June so far we are right at 4 inches of rain so far. I have water standing in the vineyard in patches and the ground squishes as you walk. Don't even get me started with spraying. I put spray on and figure I am good for about 10 days to 2 weeks and 2 days after spraying get over 2 inches again making it necessary to spray again.


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## ibglowin

Feast or famine it seems.........


----------



## LonelyMassachusetts

Rich, wonderful thread. There's so much to learn here. I'm wondering what yeast you use in your wines. Also, do you release tension on the wires during winter?


----------



## grapeman

The yeast choices I use depend on the grapes involved and the growing season and I adjust the yeast according to conditions. I use quite a bit of Cotes des blancs and Lalvin 71B-1122.

I do not relieve tension on the wires for winter and haven't had any problems.


----------



## GreginND

Why would one want to release tension? Is it due to contraction of the wires in the cold?

Grapeman, hope your harvest and crush are going well. I know it's a busy time for you.


----------



## grapeman

I thought I would put a note in here about the cold this year. As usual we got some of the coldest weather of the winter in December. There were a number of days below -15F and two days it dipped to -20F or so. We are into the colder weather again with it hitting -17F this AM with an expected high today of 5. Tonight will be a bit colder and tomorrows high will be lower. All these cold temperatures will likely kill a percentage of buds. When it warms better in March I will again cut buds to check on the percentage of dead buds in the more sensitive varieties. I do that just prior to beginning pruning. You use the percentage of dead buds to adjust your desired retained buds. In other words, if you find 25 percent of the buds dead and you want 40 live buds, you prune back to leave 50 buds : 40 +10 (40 x 25% of 40)=50 buds. If you don't do that you won't have enough buds left growing into shoots to get the desired amount to keep the vine in balance.


----------



## GreginND

We have had the cold too - dipping down close to -30 with not enough snow cover. I'm not too worried as I will be pruning down to two buds near the ground and growing my trunks this year. I am more worried about the temp fluctuations from very cold to near or above freezing. The cycling I bet is hard on the vines. Do you have any thoughts on that.

I guess some of your varietals are a bit sketchy at -20, eh? Good luck and let us know it turns out. Can you take some pictures when you do our bud checks and pruning? I'd like to see what you do.


----------



## BobR

GreginND said:


> We have had the cold too - dipping down close to -30 with not enough snow cover. I'm not too worried as I will be pruning down to two buds near the ground and growing my trunks this year. I am more worried about the temp fluctuations from very cold to near or above freezing. The cycling I bet is hard on the vines. Do you have any thoughts on that./QUOTE]
> 
> Same here, but no where as cold as what you guys are having. Yesterday we had a high of 43 degrees. Last night it dropped to 8, which is the current temperature with blowing and drifting snow. Tonight we are back down to 3. We have not had enough snow to insulate the vines and with this big fluctuation, I'm worried about killing off the root system, especially with the new plants that I just put in last spring. I guess now, it's just wait and see.


----------



## grapeman

Greg I don't worry a lot about fluctuating temps as long as it stays to cold to initiate growth. If it got up to 50 plus degrees for a week and then dropped sub zero, that might be detrimental to the vines. As long as your young vines had hardened off well they should come through fine, if not you may need to go with some hardier varieties.

Bob The new vines should be fine unless in the spring they begin growing and then it freezes real hard to kill the gowth. If it does that a couple times a few weak ones may die.


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## BobR

Thanks! Last fall, I did put some soil around the plants and did get to mulch most of the rows, but then I ran out of good weather. I'm hoping now that this will help, but I sure was not expecting this type of winter weather. Around here, we have been spoiled for the past 20 years.


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## mgmarty

The hardening off thing I would like to get a grasp of. My vines had lost there leaves in November but it was mid 60s al the way to thanksgiving. Then on December 9 it was 0. I've lost rose bushes in the past to, "it just got cold to fast."


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## grapeman

If your shoots were green in color when they dropped the leaves they were not hardened off. The shoots turn a nice coppery to brown color when hardened and can endure much colder temperatures.


----------



## grapeman

We had bud break here around mid-week this year. It is about 10 days later than the last two years. It looks good to see the green coming alive. Most vines have a decent surviving bud count, but a few varieties are kind of skimpy this year from cold damage. Here are a couple pics


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## GreginND

Looks awesome Rich. My buds are bulging and it won't be long.


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## ibglowin

Looking pretty good Rich, all things considered!


----------



## grapeman

Here we are just beginning bloom today on June 9. Last year was June 10 so neck and neck with then. Not bad considering three weeks ago we were 2 weeks behind. We have caught up 2 weeks in 3! The first ones out of the gate are Marquette and Leon Millot joined by a few LaCrescent.


----------



## Floandgary

Just got some 2007 Leon Millot at Evergreen Valley Winery,, Luthersburg PA. Great stuff!


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## ibglowin

Rich is Marquette typically one of the first red varietals (of yours) to break bud in the Spring?



grapeman said:


> Marquette and Leon Millot joined by a few LaCrescent.


----------



## grapeman

Yes it is and that is why it is prone to spring frost damage here in the NE. Some places it blooms so early that it can freeze, but not this year I hope! In the upper 70's and 80's with lows about 60 right now.


----------



## GreginND

Some of my vines started blooming over a week ago. And I cut them to the ground. I pulled what blooms I could see off. So far Marquette is growing pretty well. Brianna a little faster. But my frontenac blanc is already shooting up over 3 feet off the ground. Petite pearl is the slowest just coming out of my half grow tubes, but they look healthy. I think I may have lost a couple of vines over winter but most are roaring back.


----------



## grapeman

Here are a couple pictures taken in Vineyard #2. The first picture the row on the left is Brianna for pollinating the main crop of St.Pepin on the right. The second picture is just another angle. This is year 5 for these vines and they are doing great.


----------



## peaches9324

Rich just curious, how tall are your post?


----------



## grapeman

The posts are 6 feet tall and the vines are pruned for TopWire Cordon (High Wire Cordon).


----------



## peaches9324

is that 6 feet above ground? Thanks


----------



## grapeman

Yes, it is 6 feet above ground. The posts are wide so the look shorter.


----------



## peaches9324

ah that's what was throwing me off! good to know thanks


----------



## grapeman

I have been bad this year about posting picture updates as I have been so busy.

Today we began harvest for 2014 and began with some of the St. Pepin grapes - a cold hardy white variety bred by Elmer Swenson. We pulled a ton off today for a good start and will continue tomorrow with more from that same vineyard- Vineyard #2. The experts at Cornell don't understand why I grow the variety as it is Pistillate or all-female. It is said that is has small weak clusters. I have never had the problem and if you don't believe it look at the following pictures as evidence of what we grow here.


----------



## mgmarty

Just beautiful! Love this time of year, (although it's a lot of work). Keep the pics coming. 


Baco Noir and Seyval Blanc in Utah


----------



## ibglowin

Looking good Rich. I know it makes a fantastic wine as well thanks to you!


----------



## fivebk

Nothing better this time of year than a pickup full of grapes.......Well then again maybe there is......."2 trucks full!!! Everything looks great Rich!!! I wish I was there helping harvest.

BOB


----------



## GreginND

The St. Pepin looks great, Rich. Can you comment on your harvest yields? After last winter's cold, are you getting less fruit or did they produce well? What varieties were hit the hardest?

Very few grapes to be had this year in ND. As far as I know, most of the marquette in the state was damaged. We have frontenac, valiant and king of the north. That's about it. La Crescent also took a big hit.


----------



## grapeman

All the truly cold hardy varieties fared very well here with bumper crops on most. We are going to bring in the first Marquette of the year on Friday with a brix of 25 on 3 year old vines. I look for about 8 pounds per vine on those. The older vines should be in the 25 pound range. Frontenac looks the best it ever has here with huge clusters ripening up nicely. LaCrescent is an average crop. The St Pepin all looks really nice as do most other varieties.


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## NoobVinter

Grapeman, these pics are beautiful man. Where are you from?

Rock.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## peaches9324

rich on the 5th pic down the vine on the upper left hand corner has leafs on it which are yellow on the outside of the leaf I have one vine that has the same coloring I thought it had a vitamin deficiency was going to take a simple soil test tomorrow hardly no fruit production on it at all this year. But looking at yours I don't think that was the problem, your production is beautiful! The winter weather we had maybe?
thanks


----------



## GreginND

peaches9324 said:


> rich on the 5th pic down the vine on the upper left hand corner has leafs on it which are yellow on the outside of the leaf I have one vine that has the same coloring I thought it had a vitamin deficiency was going to take a simple soil test tomorrow hardly no fruit production on it at all this year. But looking at yours I don't think that was the problem, your production is beautiful! The winter weather we had maybe?
> thanks




It looks like chlorosis to me. This is a nutrient deficiency typically an iron deficiency. Most likely cause is a high ph soil. 


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## grapeman

It is a deficiency- not sure which one without a petiole sample. The soil is very low pH, not high and extremely sandy. We foliar feed micronutrients, but really do need to get the pH up. It hasn't affected yields much yet.


----------



## grapeman

As I sit out in the winery sipping on some Lacrosse from 2014 to see how it is doing, I am struck at the bright pomme fruit (apple and pear) coming out of the unsweetened wine. Extraordianaire! A bit more clearing and a possible filtering and this will be a great wine in a few months for the summer. Stay tuned for bottling.

As I walked through the winery I decided it was time to grab a wine thief and gather a sample of the oaked 2013 Marquette from the barrel. The red color is not quite as bright red as most Marquette I make, but I used a different yeast on that wine to attain a bit more body. Swirling the wine around in the glass revealed never ending legs. Can't wait to smell and taste............

The nose is a bit different than most of my Marquette......much more complex with subdued fruit. A bit of oak comes through, just enough to peak my interest..

Time for a taste. Drawing in a nice bit of wine, I swoosh it around my mouth to coat my tongue. Excellent body. More than any of my previous Marquette. Breathe in the vapors as I swallow and WOW.!!! An explosion of tastes! Nice round flavors bursting with chocolate and vanilla accentuating a subdued black cherry and black currant.

This has the makings of my best ever wine! Stay tuned for further samplings and release announcements!


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## LittleBearGameFarm

That could almost be an excerpt from 50 shades, never ending legs, excellent body


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## grapeman

The weather was a bit better again today. It was mixed sun and clouds but the temperature got to the mid to upper 40's. I pruned again today for a while until I got soaked through. The snow settled some more and I hope it keeps going down bit by bit. Since I prune most of the vines myself, I figured I better get started. I got a couple more rows done - down to about 95 more to go!

These were Frontenac I worked on here. They are really hardy so I figured I was safe starting with them.


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## ibglowin

Keep plugging Rich!

Forgot to ask you what type of Oak are you hitting the Marquette with?


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## grapeman

Medium toast French oak for the Marquette.
A few rows a day gets the job done.........eventually. I may need to do like Mr Al and hold pruning classes with hands on experience.


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## ibglowin

Yes, I do believe you need to hold an all day "hands on" training class of sorts. 

Good choice on the oak as well!


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## LittleBearGameFarm

Question for you Grapeman, I see on some of your earlier (page 5) you used landscape fabric along your rows. Would you advise using this near Minneapolis? I think I read somewhere it could preheat the rows where they would bud early and then get a frost but I like how nice and tidy your vineyards look. I'll, hopefully, try to copy the way you run your trellis system this spring.

Thanks!


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## grapeman

I have used plastic mulch on young vines to keep weed competition down in the early years. It is then removed later and I use other control measures. I have not had the problem you speak of about early budding and then freezing. Not sure if you could get it there or not. How many vines are you putting in? If you aren't planting too many you can control the weeds as they come up fairly easily either by hand pulling or a hoe.


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## LittleBearGameFarm

Not too many, just six rows of five vines/row. 2 rows Marquette, 1 Marechal Foch, 1 Prairie Star, 1 Frontenac Blanc, and 1 Petite Ami. I think I am going to install a TWC system with 8' spacing on the vines and 8' between rows on a west facing slope. I might switch to the Modified GDC as you have with the Marquette after I see how much vigor they have the first couple of years. These are 1-x vines from Double A, just want to see how they do in my area. These will be planted in the area I used to raise pheasant, so there should be plenty of nutrients in the soil and vigor may be an issue. Looking forward to finding out.

Thanks!


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## grapeman

Spring is trying to win with warming temperatures slowly. Today was a late April Fool day - it got into the 60's today. Tonight and tomorrow we are expecting more snow! I'm sick of it already. It has been about 3 weeks since the last pictures and the snow is disappearing. The first picture here was taken at 10:00 this AM and the second one at about 3 after pruning those rows. Notice how the bare patches under the vines grew. The snow went from about 8 inches to about 3 in that amount of time.


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## grapeman

We finished pruning the vineyards today right about the same time as budbreak. What a great feeling to finally be done with that project. Five thousand vines later I can breathe a bit easier. Maybe now my knee will heal. I slipped a month and a half ago on the ice and tore one of the ligaments on the inside of my knee. The doc said it was alright, but it still hasn't healed enough for the pain to lessen. The vineyards are about a week earlier than last year.


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## ibglowin

Looking good Rich! Glad you were able to getR done!


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## mgmarty

What a difference just a few weeks make!


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## grapeman

Things have been growing right along in the vineyard. To give you an idea I am posting a couple pictures to show how quickly things move along in a vineyard. First off is a picture from March 10 and then another shot from the same area a bit over a week ago in mid-May.


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## ibglowin

Looking good there Rich! What vines are we looking at their? Almost looks like you have 2 fruiting zones (an upper and a lower) on each vine in the pic!


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## GreginND

Wow - I'm jealous. I am just seeing bud break on most of my vines right now. Many still don't have any shoots coming out.

Looks like a Scott Henry trellis? Or are you transitioning your vines?


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## grapeman

Those vines are 9 year old Frontenac. We originally had them all VSP but we used them for trialing VSP versus 4 Arm Kniffen. The 4AK was such a clear winner with Frontenac that I converted them all to it. Yes there is 2 fruiting zones. The sugar levels get higher overall, the acids lower and half again as much yield compared to VSP. We average 25 pounds per vine with them compared to about 15 pounds for the VSP.
What you see is about 2 weeks growth on them, maybe just a bit more.


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## GreginND

Curious about your 4AK - do you grow the lower shoots upwards or down? I presume the top shoots grow down. Do you need to do more leaf pulling to avoid shading and do you need to top your canes to avoid problems?

THanks.

Greg


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## grapeman

Both the top and bottom trail down. I crop them heavily so the shoots only grow 3-4 feet so they don't shade badly. We will pull some leaves but not a lot.


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## grapeman

Early bloom has begun for the year. This one is Frontenac. An early spray for Black Rot, phomopsis and downy mildew is critical at this stage. It was applied 4 days ago to avoid direct spray during bloom. This was strictly fungicides so as not to endanger any stray bees flying in for the tiny pollen. Bees aren't necessary for grape pollination, but I still don't want to endager any bees or hives with insecticides. Also a few pictures of the home vineyard. Look under my other post of the vineyard from the beginning for updates there.


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## ibglowin

Everybody is looking happy and healthy!


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## mgmarty

Looks real good!


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## grapeman

Had another busy day today and I actually spent most of it in the vineyards, not just the winery or being at the markets. I began today with the last planned cover spray for the season at the home vineyard. After showering I went to my oncologist for a two month followup after my last maintenance chemo for the lymphoma. It was two hours to see him, but that was a bit of time to rest so I didn't mind. Everything looks good at this point!

After making a few phone calls and a bit of groveling for some help, I went to the new vineyard of almost four acres and put on 2 miles of bird netting or another way of looking at that is 170,000 square feet of net (17 feet by over 10,000 feet)! That covers the reds in that vineyard and the early LaCrescent. My brother hjad tested me Saturday saying there was about a thousand birds in the grapes. I went down that evening and put out an owl to try and keep a few out until I could begin netting today. 

The grapes are really ripening quickly so far this year and before you know it harvest will begin for yet another year!


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## chrisvt

Glad to read that things are looking good on the health front!

2 miles!? We did 1,000 feet of bird netting on Saturday and I was glad we didn't have to do more.


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## farmer

What are you using for your cover spray ? I sprayed three weeks ago with Captain &Rally and was wondering if I needed to spray again? 
Good to hear things are going well !


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## grapeman

To give a bit of botrytis protection, I add Inspire to the mix along with Captan (fungicide) and Carbaryl (for grape berry moth).


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## GreginND

Is Captan recommended for controlling black rot? It showed up in July in my vineyard this year and I know I have to be aggressive about controlling it next year.


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## grapeman

It is listed for it, but is less effective than mancozeb products such as Manzate. I use Manzate until about two months before anticipated harvest since it has a 66 day PHI (pre-harvest interval).


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## grapeman

After a very good growing season we had a period of very warm to hot temps during mid to late September with daily temps in the upper 80's to mid 90's for several weeks. This brought the grapes into ripeness too quickly for my meager picking crew to handle in a timely manner. As a result we lost at least a third of the crop and probably closer to one half of it. The grapes just got too ripe too quickly. Many of the ones lost were ones in the new Bordeau vineyard because it is fully open and ripens earlier and quicker. While it makes me sick to see all the bad grapes all I need to do to feel better is look inside the overflowing winery building to be reminded that it was a great harvest anyways. I will need to expand the winery soon to accomodate future rises in harvest yields. Here are a couple pictures of some Leon Millot left behind. We had to take the nets off because the leaves are dropping now. I have a few tons of St Pepin still hanging that we may be able to try an ice wine on soon.


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## ibglowin

So sad. You need to advertise for a harvest party "workshop" next year for sure!


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## OilnH2O

Gee, Rich - I was concerned that the snow I saw on the news in your part of the country had affected you. Sorry to see all that - I'm not sure why mine turned out so well but feel for you... I agree with Mike - hate to see you miss it at the end of all the hard work!


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## grapeman

Don't feel bad for me. While I hate to see a lot of fruit go bad the reality of it is that I knew I did not have enough room to pick all the large crop. I gave some fruit away to others and offered some wineries near me the opportunity to get some but they didn't want it. I did not get extra help because I simply could not handle it all. If all goes well, I will expand the winery in the next year and increase tank storage. 

On another note, the growing season is officially over with the temperature bottoming out at 24 degrees F this AM. Yesterday we even had some flurries at the winery but not accumulating snow like I saw at the Saranac Lake Farmer's Market yesterday. Sinply beautiful seeing snow on the ground and fall foliage on some trees.


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## ibglowin

Maybe try a U-pick ad on Craigslist if it happens again.


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## barbiek

ibglowin said:


> Maybe try a U-pick ad on Craigslist if it happens again.



Or on here would be much better!


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## grapeman

Dave here is some of that snow you refer to. It is a short ways from where I was at the market yesterday just outside the Bobsled runs at Lake Placid.


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## OilnH2O

grapeman said:


> Dave here is some of that snow you refer to. It is a short ways from where I was at the market yesterday just outside the Bobsled runs at Lake Placid.



Amazing! Still a beautiful autumn here with mid-60s as I "pen" this! But you are right... a little color among the foliage with new snow is a pretty sight! 

THANKS!


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## grapeman

And then this afternoon it started to snow like heck all of a sudden in front of the winery. Five minutes later I looked back out and took this picture. WTH!


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## GreginND

NO NO NO, I'm not ready! 

While we have dipped down to the 20's a couple of times, we have sunshine and 60's in the forecast for the next couple of weeks. YAY.


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## OilnH2O

And what growing zone is this?? 

People ask why I'm growing grapes in Montana... I say "I'm bettin' on global warming!"


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## grapeman

After a winter of record warmth in December and balmy most of January, the cold temperatures have settled in. Yesterday morning it was -14F with stiff winds. I warmed to -2F by early afternoon. At 4 PM it had dropped back to -12 but the winds had died back somewhat. I got up this AM to -22F with 10 mph wind, so the wind chill was around -43F. Needless to say it is much colder in the mountains to our west.

It will be interesting to see what there is for bud damage when we begin pruning in a week or so.


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## ibglowin

And here we are in the "banana belt" enjoying a little taste of Spring. It was 70 degrees yesterday in ABQ. I may water the vines and grass in the backyard this afternoon.


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## GreginND

We're sitting at +14 this morning but we we -14 yesterday morning.

I presume your cold hardy vines should be ok with the -22 but how much does the wind affect them?


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## grapeman

Mike I could try watering here. You must have seen those videos where they throw some boiling water into the air and it freezes in mid-air. I think it would be like that right now. Greg the wind shouldn't be that much of a factor. I was hoping for a mild winter all the way through. Previously it hadn't gotten below about -10 this year at all.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfDrhyTKUA[/ame]


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## GreginND

Well, better to have low temps now rather than late fall before the vines are completely hardened off. After a mild fall we had less than -20 in early november last year that knocked my vines back to the ground again.


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## grapeman

I don't care where anybody is, there are always problems of some kind. There is cold and heat, rain and drought, insects and disease of all kinds depending where you are. The real challenge is learning the best ways to deal with them and lessen their impact. Part of the reason I love/hate farming!


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## mgmarty

grapeman said:


> The real challenge is learning the best ways to deal with them and lessen their impact. Part of the reason I love/hate farming!



Well said!


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## grapeman

I wish the weather would make up it's mind here this year. The snow has gone away- a few times now. It was sunny and I pruned in 20 something temps 2 days ago. Yesterday it was 20 in the morning and there was 2 inches of slushy snow covering the vines. I got soaked pruning for a while and then the sun came out a bit and it got to the mid thirties melting the snow gone again. This morning, it has begun snowing again and is just miserable and cold. I am staying inside today since I have developed a cough and don't want to get real sick.


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## ibglowin

You better hope you don't get what Denver got yesterday! We got a rock as usual as of late, just 60mph winds.........


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## nephils

grapeman said:


> I wish the weather would make up it's mind here this year. The snow has gone away- a few times now. It was sunny and I pruned in 20 something temps 2 days ago. Yesterday it was 20 in the morning and there was 2 inches of slushy snow covering the vines. I got soaked pruning for a while and then the sun came out a bit and it got to the mid thirties melting the snow gone again. This morning, it has begun snowing again and is just miserable and cold. I am staying inside today since I have developed a cough and don't want to get real sick.



Hi Grapeman, just want to say I have learned a lot by reading your posts. In this picture, what is the row orientation? Just curious because I'm evaluating approximately 3.5 acres of my property for an acre planting, but the problem is that the contiguous space is wooded. from that pic it looks like you are surrounded by woods. My propety is also surrounded by 8,000 plus acres of pine/oak forest to the west-southwest.


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## mgmarty

At least everything is staying dormant! My vines were all leafed out on April 6th last year, and froze all back. Things are looking better this year, even if I wake to a little snow in the mornings.


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## grapeman

nephils said:


> Hi Grapeman, just want to say I have learned a lot by reading your posts. In this picture, what is the row orientation? Just curious because I'm evaluating approximately 3.5 acres of my property for an acre planting, but the problem is that the contiguous space is wooded. from that pic it looks like you are surrounded by woods. My propety is also surrounded by 8,000 plus acres of pine/oak forest to the west-southwest.


 
Yes that vineyard is surrounded by woods and is not ideal but it works. That's where I came up with the vineyard name of Hid-In-Pines Vineyard. The rows run east-west instead of the often quoted ideal of north south. I really don't find much difference from that vineyard to another one I have running north-south. I would rather have longer rows running the other direction that many more shorter rows going n-s.


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## grapeman

I haven't posted in quite a while but I wanted to note a couple things. First off here we are August 23rd and I checked the brix level of the Marquette this afternoon. It is running in the high teens at 18 to 19 brix. Target harvest brix is 26 to 28. I have never had it ripen so quickly or early.

Secondly and more importantly, this thread is listed as Champlain Valley - Grapeman's vineyard. The Champlain Valley is a geographic region around Lake Champlain which is straddled by New York, Vermont and Quebec. About 5 years ago a few of us beginning wineries and vineyards here in the Champlain Valley of New York started working on the idea of a new AVA (American Viticultural Area). This is submitted to the federal governing agency, the TTB following their guidelines. After a number of months of heavy paperwork the petition was submitted on behalf of the Lake Champlain Grape Growers Association. After about a year the paperwork was considered perfected and published for a comment period. Since there were no comments it was passed onto a final review where it passed through. Then after almost a year of waiting this morning I received notice that The Champlain Valley of New York AVA will be official one month from yesterday.

This is significant because now the growers here can use that designation on the label to build our own reputation for the wines here. Previously I had to designate my wine as New York State wine along with a few hundred other vineyards. When people see the label they assumed it was from the Finger Lakes and I just repackaged it. I am excited about the possibilities that this opens up to us.


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## ibglowin

Congrats Rich!

Looks like all the hard work paid off. Will you order new labels immediately or use up all old stock first than add the AVA designation on to a new label order in the future?


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## GreginND

Our Marquette is already at 22 brix!!! Way early for us. The pH is at 2.75. I need those acids to drop.


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## Johny99

Congratulation! That is an achievement. When Lake Chelan received their AVA a couple of years ago, one of the wineries on a bit of a shoestring budget added gold medallion stickers to their bottles in lieu of buying new labels. I think it actually helped announce the AVA. Anyway, great job working the system.


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## grapeman

I use a Primera Label printer and print all our own labels in house now for the last year or so and also the Primera double label applicator. The downside is it uses a LOT of ink, but is still less money than buying them.


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## chrisvt

grapeman said:


> I haven't posted in quite a while but I wanted to note a couple things. First off here we are August 23rd and I checked the brix level of the Marquette this afternoon. It is running in the high teens at 18 to 19 brix. Target harvest brix is 26 to 28. I have never had it ripen so quickly or early.



That's incredible, Rich. We're not that far from you and just barely finished verasion, putting us pretty much on pace from last year, maybe a little ahead. We didn't hit 19 Brix until the first week in September. 

Did you do something different with the canopy management this year?


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## TonyR

Congratulations, do any of you'll have a Sea Serpent on anyones label?


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## grapeman

Sorry Tony no Champ used yet,

Chris nothing different here for canopy management except we heavily used Japanese Beatles to thin the top layer of leaves over the clusters. LOL


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## louannamullins

*jim*

 been trying to get on here for two or three years. never ever seen such a mess. my wife has just registered and it works so im talking on the wifes post. im getting ready to put in six rows of vines and twelve per row in montrose colorado zone five as i understand, just moved here. this is a brother in laws little vinyard so he s interested in table grapes and the wife wants wine grapes. im looking at the minnisota hybrids as it can reach twenty below and the growing season is 150 days were at five thousand feet. i really enjoy this thread


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## berrycrush

grapeman said:


> ..t except we heavily used Japanese Beatles to thin the top layer of leaves over the clusters. LOL


Same here, I didn't spray any Sevin this year, and I wished they eat a little more leaves!


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