# copper fermentation barrel



## copperpot (Jan 6, 2012)

As you can tell I am new to this so here goes. Would it be OK to ferment in a copper drum?


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## SouthernChemist (Jan 6, 2012)

copperpot said:


> As you can tell I am new to this so here goes. Would it be OK to ferment in a copper drum?



This is just my chemistry instinct jumping out, I'm sure someone else can say for sure, but unless the drum has some sort of protective lining on it, it probably would not be safe fermenting an acidic mixture in a copper container. Even household vinegar will corrode copper over time, and that process will leach copper ions into your must.


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## Arne (Jan 6, 2012)

I believe Southern Chemist is hittin the nail pretty close to on the head. I know you can use a crock for the primary, but if you want to move it around, a crock filled with 5 or6 gal of wine is pretty heavy. Food grade buckets are pretty cheap, and lots of people here have managed to get some free ones by going to the local bakery and getting their used frosting buckets. Clean em out good and they are ready to use. Arne.


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## Rocky (Jan 6, 2012)

I am not recommending the use of copper vats for fermentation. Now here comes the big BUT. I know they were used for fermenting "mash" for making illegal alcohol during Prohibition. However, I don't know whether or not mash was acidic or alkaline (basic), nor do I know if the distilliation process would eliminate any harmful substances from the mash.


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## pete1325 (Jan 6, 2012)

Is'nt distilling and fermenting two different process's?


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## Rocky (Jan 6, 2012)

Yes they are Pete. But in order to distill people that do/did that sort of thing first have to ferment a mash or corn, rye, wheat, etc. and then that fermented mash is distilled to produce alcohol. This, of course, is illegal in the United States but it is certainly part of our history, not to mention part of our present in some parts of the country.


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## joea132 (Jan 6, 2012)

Copper is poisonous in certain amounts in wine. There is an fda guideline for how much you can have. Copper sulfate is oftentimes used to reduce hydrogen sulfide in wine. The calculations for using copper sulfate specially takes this threshold into consideration when adding it to treat wine. You cannot gave more than X parts per million of copper. That being said you cannot estimate or measure how much copper would end up in your wine should you ferment in a copper container. 

Short answer, no it would probably not be safe. Buy pails to ferment in or even in glass.


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## robie (Jan 6, 2012)

Sorry guys, we can't discuss *istillation in any form on this forum. It's not us, it's the law-guys.
Even in passing, it is a dirty word and can cause the forum much grieve.

Thanks


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## housecopper (Jul 13, 2017)

Hi guys - I'm in research mode on copper and wine making. Saw this thread and thought I'd make a comment...I don't believe there would be much copper leaching into the wine if you're not actually heating the wine. That's the whole point of lining copperware - if you're heating it, you need it lined (unless you're making jam/sugar/pastries or beating egg whites, etc), but otherwise copper's pretty much safe and doesn't really transfer any copper into food, for all the molecules may react with the contents. So the copper may 'react' with the wine, but it's not going to add copper to the wine unless you a) heat it or b) add copper sulfate (which is not the same thing as putting wine in a copper basin). Copper stills worked back in the day because of the process happening...AND you were heating the copper (I make vintage stills sometimes, so I get the mechanics) So again...you still need heat to make the inert copper crystals react with the food. Otherwise the copper walls are just "purifying" your wine - eg, cleaning out any bacteria, etc. Which you may or may not want. So perhaps using copper basins/kettles might work in terms of wine making...I'm not sure how or where in the process (I'm no wine maker, just a copper cookware fabricator) you'd use it, but it's something I'm certainly curious about in terms of the science...


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## stickman (Jul 13, 2017)

It really isn't a good idea to use copper for fermentation or storage. As others have already pointed out, copper will be released into the wine without control. Excess copper in the wine can cause several issues including premature oxidation, as well as haze or sediment in white wines.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 13, 2017)

housecopper said:


> Hi guys - I'm in research mode on copper and wine making. Saw this thread and thought I'd make a comment...I don't believe there would be much copper leaching into the wine if you're not actually heating the wine.



Housecopper, you do not seem to be aware of the effect of low _p_H on the solubility of copper. The dissolution rate of copper goes up _dramatically_ at lower _p_H, and wine is rather acidic (_p_H ~ 3.2-3.5).


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## housecopper (Jul 13, 2017)

Hi stickman!
Thank you for the comments - as I mentioned, I'm just researching (not winemaking). I do know copper is not released into food unless the copper is heated (blame the day job as a copper cookware fabricator) and even then it's trace amounts - it takes a lot (years!) of cooking acidic foods in unlined copper for you to get an inkling of copper-induced illness. I do know liquids can be purified by sitting in copper, but it doesn't actually do much other than "clean" the liquid itself - hence ancient Egyptians would put water in copper jugs to purify it before drinking, etc. We get a lot of orders from people who want copper cups that they want water sitting in so they can drink naturally purified water...BUT that being said, I have no notion if something acidic, like wine, would react with unheated copper. It's an interesting experiment idea. I'm guessing you're right in that there would be some interaction, though I don't know if there'd be excess copper by any means...? Does anyone have numbers out there to show that wine sitting in copper would do anything? Perhaps eliminate the need for copper sulfate? And I don't know if it would be a good material for fermentation or storage - as I say, I know next to nothing about wine-making so far - but there was talk of using copper sheet in some other stages of wine making, so it got me thinking... Either way - thanks for humoring me on the research end...


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## housecopper (Jul 13, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Housecopper, you do not seem to be aware of the effect of low _p_H on the solubility of copper. The dissolution rate of copper goes up _dramatically_ at lower _p_H, and wine is rather acidic (_p_H ~ 3.2-3.5).


 
Nope, totally not aware of the low pH interaction with copper. I know all about how copper interacts with food and liquids when the copper is heated, but not when it simply is in contact with acid. I definitely will research!! Thank you!

What about the whole running wine over copper sheet to get rid of the sulfur smell? I swear I read that somewhere...here? So...there's some merit to using copper sheet somewhere in the process? Just very fascinating.


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## housecopper (Jul 13, 2017)

I think I'll go read a lot of copper plumbing manuals to get some additional ideas too and learn about cold/non-heat induced solubility. Still have some notions where copper and wine can play together, though. Could be cool/interesting. Why not, right?


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## Scooter68 (Jul 14, 2017)

Let's not neglect to mention that in addition to the acidic nature of a wine must you also have the chemicals added Potassium Metabisulfate, and Potasium Sorbate. Even if the copper doesn't contribute to a toxic condition it may affect the ability of those chemicals to do their job. (Isn't whipping a copper wire in a wine must a recommended treatment for too much HS2?)

Over the centuries of wine making copper has been around and while not cheap, one would expect there is a reason it's not mentioned as good material for wine fermentation.


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## Engler (Jul 14, 2017)

Copper compounds are TOXIC . It is one thing to use copper pipes to carry chemically neutral water, and another thing to expose fermenting wine with all complex acids etc etc. to a copper walls of a barrel.

I do not want any copper touching my wine, period.

Beside copper is expensive comparing o other and SAFER alternatives like stainless steel, glass, or wood.

So why bother with copper?


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## sour_grapes (Jul 14, 2017)

housecopper said:


> What about the whole running wine over copper sheet to get rid of the sulfur smell? I swear I read that somewhere...here? So...there's some merit to using copper sheet somewhere in the process? Just very fascinating.



Yes, H2S (and also more complex thiols AKA mercaptans) bind strongly to copper, so you can squelch the stinky smell by exposing the wine to copper. However, there will be a concomitant increase in copper dissolved into the wine. At low concentrations, this is fine. However, the problem is that the copper dose will be uncontrolled.

Instead, it is better in these situations to use Reduless, which introduces a known, safe quantity of copper.

In general, I am a huge fan of copper, and am not fearful of it in almost all circumstances. However, the solubility of copper at low _p_H makes me nervous.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 14, 2017)

So for the safety of all who might consider it I believe it's the safe assumption to say Copper as a fermentation container for wine is *way *too risky even if it is coated since coatings can deteriorate and suddenly bring wine into contact with copper leading to unknown results and potentially even deadly results.

Perhaps this was tried before a hundred or more years past and the person doing the experimenting did not survive to report their failure. Would not be the first time people unknowingly did themselves in. Sort of like the folks in Hawaii trimming the leaves off Oleander branches and using them to roast hotdogs. Most did not live to say "Hmm bad idea."

As the Great Investigator Clouseau would say the case is Solv-ed.


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## SouthernChemist (Jul 14, 2017)

I would think it's simply not worth the risk. There are plenty of other containers you can ferment in that are safer. 

Let's not forget that the Romans made wine in lead vessels. They used to boil grape must down in lead containers to concentrate it and inevitably let the lead affect the flavor. They also boiled old wine with other ingredients in lead vessels to improve its flavor. Oh the good ole days when people did not know any better!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 14, 2017)

SouthernChemist said:


> I would think it's simply not worth the risk. There are plenty of other containers you can ferment in that are safer.
> 
> Let's not forget that the Romans made wine in lead vessels. They used to boil grape must down in lead containers to concentrate it and inevitably let the lead affect the flavor. They also boiled old wine with other ingredients in lead vessels to improve its flavor. Oh the good ole days when people did not know any better!



So that means there was a reason the Roman leaders became complete idiots - Brain-damaged by the "Best Wine" the strongest flavor carrying a good dose of lead which can result in:
High blood pressure
Joint and muscle pain
*Difficulties with memory or concentration*
*Headache*
Abdominal pain
*Mood disorders*
Reduced sperm count and abnormal sperm
Miscarriage, stillbirth or premature birth in pregnant women


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## Ron0126 (Jul 14, 2017)

robie said:


> Sorry guys, we can't discuss *istillation in any form on this forum. It's not us, it's the law-guys.
> Even in passing, it is a dirty word and can cause the forum much grieve.
> 
> Thanks



And yet, I can watch 10,000 hours of how to do it -- in detail -- on YouTube produced by USA youtubers.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 14, 2017)

Think most of us have watched or heard of many YouTube videos that crossed lines, were blatantly demonstrating illegal behavior and more. It's also not unusual to hear that law enforcement used those videos to identify and arrest criminals. This forum's title tells me what we should be discussing. Others who want to pursue other hobbies legal or otherwise certainly are free to do so but I would hate to see this board shut down over a topic that is outside the site's purpose.


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## Ron0126 (Jul 14, 2017)

AND you can buy the kits to do it on Amazon ... !


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## Scooter68 (Jul 14, 2017)

I've seen lots of offers on he web for things outside local or federal laws.


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## housecopper (Jul 14, 2017)

All true in terms of the ancient Romans, who lined their copper with lead. (Or used an alloy of copper that included lead...or drank water from lead pipes...)

Thankfully we are all smarter today. Haha. We don't mix lead with our food (at least I don't think anyone does on purpose?). 

I personally only use CDA122 or 110 copper (100% pure) and if I'm cooking I use pure tin lining (it usually has a tiny amount of copper to hold it into bar shape when I'm tinning). Not a drop of lead to be found. 

This all being said I have had fun reading about copper solubility in low pH per plumbing and other manuals...though obviously there's no tests of copper kettles and wine. Still trying to figure out the numbers.

Suffice to say since people are not up for trying fermentation inside copper, what's with the whole splashing the wine over copper sheet from the hardware store thing? That sounds interesting too.


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## housecopper (Jul 14, 2017)

I feel like I am now needing to learn yet another whole language just to figure out this science. Hahaha.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 14, 2017)

housecopper said:


> ..or drank water from lead pipes...)
> 
> Thankfully we are all smarter today.



You've heard of Flint, MI, perhaps?  (That situation was brought about due to changing to a water source with lower _p_H.



> Suffice to say since people are not up for trying fermentation inside copper, what's with the whole splashing the wine over copper sheet from the hardware store thing? That sounds interesting too.



Here's what I do with copper sheet:


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## Scooter68 (Jul 14, 2017)

I remember going into a High home store (An upper crust version of Home Depoo) They had a hammered copper kitchen sink - OOOOH How stylish. And the practical side of me wanted blurt out - Say what happens if I spill some concentrated Lemon Juice into this sink, or some other highly acidic food. Or Drain Cleaner etc. In other words - boy that's purty but someone else can have that fun. Course they probably have maids too. (Pity poor maid who ruins that sink.)

Anyway - Copper is a beautiful metal with a number uses but somethings just don't pass muster on practical terms. With that I must go check on my must. (Peach Wine started 3 days ago)


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## sour_grapes (Jul 14, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> I remember going into a High home store (An upper crust version of Home Depoo) They had a hammered copper kitchen sink - OOOOH How stylish. And the practical side of me wanted blurt out - Say what happens if I spill some concentrated Lemon Juice into this sink, or some other highly acidic food. Or Drain Cleaner etc. In other words - boy that's purty but someone else can have that fun. Course they probably have maids too. (Pity poor maid who ruins that sink.)
> 
> Anyway - Copper is a beautiful metal with a number uses but somethings just don't pass muster on practical terms. With that I must go check on my must. (Peach Wine started 3 days ago)



I have to disagree with you on the practicality of copper sinks. Yes, an acid in your sink will make its presence known. But who cares?! The magic words are that "it is a living sink." I.e., the degree of color and oxidation will vary, but that is okay. I badly wanted a copper sink, but could not justify the cost.

Here is the purveyor I would go with if I could: https://www.rachiele.com


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## housecopper (Jul 15, 2017)

Engler said:


> Copper compounds are TOXIC . It is one thing to use copper pipes to carry chemically neutral water, and another thing to expose fermenting wine with all complex acids etc etc. to a copper walls of a barrel.
> 
> I do not want any copper touching my wine, period.
> 
> ...



I don't believe copper is toxic - it's the overexposure of copper that is so...the WHO actually has copper listed as an essential mineral for our survival. Obviously copper mixed with lead...not so much. hee hee... But I agree, having now spent way too much time today than I planned on to read up on copper and low pH and such...that copper is not the right material for fermentation. 

Did you know stainless steel holds onto germs for 21 days and copper starts to kill them after 15 minutes? I personally don't like stainless if I can help it...though I can appreciate that it works in terms of winemaking for its nonreactive qualities...

I need to stop typing so much and reading so much...to many random facts. heehee!


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## housecopper (Jul 15, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> I have to disagree with you on the practicality of copper sinks. Yes, an acid in your sink will make its presence known. But who cares?! The magic words are that "it is a living sink." I.e., the degree of color and oxidation will vary, but that is okay. I badly wanted a copper sink, but could not justify the cost.
> 
> Here is the purveyor I would go with if I could: https://www.rachiele.com



You and Scooter are dudes after my heart (am I allowed to say that, being a chick?) - copper sinks are to DIE for, but you need some serious polish to keep it looking amazing after it oxidizes. I personally prefer Eve Stone's stuff for copper ANYthing. Keeps the luster for a ridiculously long time.

As for copper and acidity...think of all those moscow mule mugs and all the limes they are coming into contact with...acidity is not so instant or so dramatic with copper...(or every bar serving moscow mule mugs in copper should be now warned about the copper mixing with the acid of the limes! or...perhaps they are polishing heavily after every use...)


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## housecopper (Jul 15, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> You've heard of Flint, MI, perhaps?  (That situation was brought about due to changing to a water source with lower _p_H.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I do with copper sheet:



Oooo - is that roof flashing?? Handmade? What are you using for flux to solder your seams and joints? I've been roving between Johnson's, Astro and Harris myself...

I am a geek. It is official.

Seriously, you guys. I am in maker mode because I just got some new tools and besides the american-style fry pans I'm working on with the fabricators, I want to play with the wine aspect. If there is some copper stick or tool useful in any of the wine creation, tell me! Put in your opinion, because I want to try and make something. Experiment time!!!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 15, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> I have to disagree with you on the practicality of copper sinks. Yes, an acid in your sink will make its presence known. But who cares?! The magic words are that "it is a living sink." I.e., the degree of color and oxidation will vary, but that is okay. I badly wanted a copper sink, but could not justify the cost.
> 
> Here is the purveyor I would go with if I could: https://www.rachiele.com



As long as buyer recognizes that the apperance is going to change unless the product receive a lot of special care, that's fine. I have my doubts that in 5 years of active use that it will look as nice and shiny as on day one.

That being said in some uses the aged copper takes on beautiful colors such as the green patina on our copper and brass weather vane on the roof. 

Tastes vary and results vary but for use as a wine fermentation vessel I see it as way too risky.


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## balatonwine (Jul 15, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Here's what I do with copper sheet:



When I lived in Switzerland, many houses there had copper trim for window sills, water flashing etc. Some even had full copper roofs. I really liked the look, especially after the copper weathered.

Fast forward years later, moved to Hungary and remodeling our house here. Asked our contractor about copper trim and flashing. He just shook his head and said, "Don't do it. It will just be stolen."


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## sour_grapes (Jul 15, 2017)

housecopper said:


> Oooo - is that roof flashing?? Handmade? What are you using for flux to solder your seams and joints? I've been roving between Johnson's, Astro and Harris myself...



Yes, that was a j-shaped drainage channel and stepped counterflashing in the top 3 photos. The next two photos show a ventcover for the bathroom fan. This was a one-off project, viz., I put a clay-tile roof on my house a few years ago.

For flux, I just use good ol' Oatey from the hardware store. Hope that wasn't unwise!




balatonwine said:


> Asked our contractor about copper trim and flashing. He just shook his head and said, "Don't do it. It will just be stolen."



I certainly worry about that! I put in copper gutters and downspouts, and those are surely the most tempting targets.


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## stickman (Jul 15, 2017)

Copper A/C condensing units are being cut off and stolen also.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 15, 2017)

This post takes some explaining. @housecopper and I exchanged some messages by PM, wherein I told her that I also covered my fridge and DW in copper sheet. She asked me to send those pix to her, but the PM functionality does not allow sending pix by PM as best as I can tell. So I decided to just post them here, in case anyone else is interested, too.

I patinaed the sheets before making the panels. The DW picture was taken just after I completed the panel, so the patina was removed by the flux where I did a lap seam. That quickly re-oxidized and is nearly undetectable now.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 15, 2017)

stickman said:


> Copper A/C condensing units are being cut off and stolen also.



During the big housing market crash - while copper prices soared, thousands of houses vacant due to foreclosure etc were being torn apart as theives stole any copper, including wiring, that they cold get their hands on There was at least one case of Justice Through Karma (Or stupidity) Two thieves in Fort Smith Arkansas tried to tear out the copper in a vacant factory. While the factory was vacant the power was not off. The Survivor called for an ambulance and the rest of the story became evident pretty quickly.


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## housecopper (Jul 17, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> This post takes some explaining. @housecopper and I exchanged some messages by PM, wherein I told her that I also covered my fridge and DW in copper sheet. She asked me to send those pix to her, but the PM functionality does not allow sending pix by PM as best as I can tell. So I decided to just post them here, in case anyone else is interested, too.
> 
> I patinaed the sheets before making the panels. The DW picture was taken just after I completed the panel, so the patina was removed by the flux where I did a lap seam. That quickly re-oxidized and is nearly undetectable now.



These are gorgeous!! I'm actually very impressed by the tightness of your seams. Did you just use the 10ft rolls of copper you can pick up at Menards? And did you just form the pieces or actually poxy/attach them to the fridge and DW? Thank you for sharing - they are way cooler than I was even picturing!


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## housecopper (Jul 17, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> During the big housing market crash - while copper prices soared, thousands of houses vacant due to foreclosure etc were being torn apart as theives stole any copper, including wiring, that they cold get their hands on There was at least one case of Justice Through Karma (Or stupidity) Two thieves in Fort Smith Arkansas tried to tear out the copper in a vacant factory. While the factory was vacant the power was not off. The Survivor called for an ambulance and the rest of the story became evident pretty quickly.



That's a good one - and yes, totally true! I would definitely worry about copper on the outside of the house so hopefully @sour_grapes doesn't have any issue with it...!! Put alarms on your copper?! Once it gets that great green verdigris, I think it is somehow less tempting for people as it's not as easy to clean up, of course...

You all know that copper of course was often used for flashing/roofing and the old fashioned tinners and smiths had to climb up on the top of the roofs with portable brazier furnaces (usually made of tin themselves) and then the "coppers" aka old school soldering irons that had big copper tips, were put in and heated - usually you needed 2-3 coppers up there, and while using 1, the other two would get to the right temperature so you could grab it when the first seam went cold...and if you put in too many coppers, the brazier couldn't get them hot enough to work. Hence the adage to of "having too many irons in the fire"


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## sour_grapes (Jul 17, 2017)

housecopper said:


> These are gorgeous!! I'm actually very impressed by the tightness of your seams. Did you just use the 10ft rolls of copper you can pick up at Menards? And did you just form the pieces or actually poxy/attach them to the fridge and DW? Thank you for sharing - they are way cooler than I was even picturing!



Thank you very much. Yes, I just used the 10' rolls from Menards. 

I used medium density fiberboard (MDF) as a substrate, and then attached the MDF to the fridge and DW in the manner that the fridge/DW manufacturers expect you to. 

I rounded the edges of the MDF over with a 1/4" router bit (IIRC). I glued the copper sheet to the front of the MDF using a special glue that binds to copper, as not many glues stick to copper. (At this remove, I cannot recall the name of the product.)

I then bent the edges of the copper around the MDF. I built a special jig to bend the sheet around the MDF. At the corners, you have to figure out how to cut the copper so that it does not have any gaps _or_ overlaps when it is rolled around the edges. It turns out that, if you work out the math, the line that marks the intersection of two cylinders at right angles is a sine wave if you unroll the cylinders (which I found surprising and cool!). I therefore sketched and cut a sinusoid onto the corners before bending the sheet around the MDF. This worked surprisingly well.


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## balatonwine (Jul 18, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> I also covered my fridge and DW in copper sheet.



Is this a DIY or are you a pro? Darn fine job either way.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 18, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> Is this a DIY or are you a pro? Darn fine job either way.



Thank you! It was just DIY. (I can do moderately nice work, but I am NOT FAST ENOUGH to be a pro, not by a long shot.)


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## housecopper (Jul 19, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Thank you! It was just DIY. (I can do moderately nice work, but I am NOT FAST ENOUGH to be a pro, not by a long shot.)



It's ok - it's still gorgeous! That is very very interesting about the sine wave! I wondered what you did for corners - I do a few different styles to make a seamless corner when making copper trays for vintage pieces and it sounds like you discovered yet another way to do it!

How is the MDF holding up under the dishwasher (in terms of water) or did you wrap the copper completely around the MDF so the seams of it are under the copper where it is attached? I always get so nervous with MDF and water...

Thanks for sharing the how-to!!! It is really lovely and nothing at all like what I do with copper..


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## sour_grapes (Jul 19, 2017)

housecopper said:


> It is really lovely and nothing at all like what I do with copper..



OOoooohhhh, pretty. I know that you are in my area -- Where do you hawk your wares?



> How is the MDF holding up under the dishwasher (in terms of water) or did you wrap the copper completely around the MDF so the seams of it are under the copper where it is attached? I always get so nervous with MDF and water...



Yeah, termite spit and water make me nervous, too. The rear is exposed, but I varnished it pretty thoroughly before adding the copper.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 19, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> OOoooohhhh, pretty. I know that you are in my area -- Where do you hawk your wares?



Never mind! I found it. http://www.housekeepercrockery.com

Looks gorgeous.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 19, 2017)

Given the average lifespan of dishwashers.... 7 years would be about all it has to last at best. Unless that leaks at the door seal... you should be good.


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## Ajmassa (Jul 20, 2017)

#10characterMinimum


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## sour_grapes (Jul 20, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> Given the average lifespan of dishwashers.... 7 years would be about all it has to last at best. Unless that leaks at the door seal... you should be good.



Believe me, if this dishwasher kicks, I will be looking to replace it with another of the same model (or one that has the same hole pattern) so that I can still use the panel. I really like it, but have no interest in making that panel again!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 20, 2017)

I understand that. Before I retired I sold appliances at Lowe's - They really don't make them like they used to. Even Kitchenaid. Great machines - once you get them installed and running. Problem is they have ridiculously weak rear legs and it's not at all unusual to have a $900 dishwasher come in with those legs buckled under. Here's the crazy part of this - The door hinge bracket usually also gets bent and the door won't close correctly. Fixable, yeah but who wants to buy a brand new High dollar dishwasher that had to be 'fixed' before it could even be sold. All they had to do was provide better boxing or a temporary brace for shipping - but in this day of cheaper is better.... 
Just another reason I like making my own wine - I know what's in it and how much of every thing. If I buy a bottle of brand 'X' Blueberry wine, Maybe it's even all blueberry no grape of apple in it, but what quality and what quantity of blueberries are in there?

(How's that for a long way around to make a cconnection to wine making?)


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## Redbird1 (Jul 20, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> I understand that. Before I retired I sold appliances at Lowe's - They really don't make them like they used to. Even Kitchenaid. Great machines - once you get them installed and running. Problem is they have ridiculously weak rear legs and it's not at all unusual to have a $900 dishwasher come in with those legs buckled under. Here's the crazy part of this - The door hinge bracket usually also gets bent and the door won't close correctly. Fixable, yeah but who wants to buy a brand new High dollar dishwasher that had to be 'fixed' before it could even be sold. All they had to do was provide better boxing or a temporary brace for shipping - but in this day of cheaper is better....
> Just another reason I like making my own wine - I know what's in it and how much of every thing. If I buy a bottle of brand 'X' Blueberry wine, Maybe it's even all blueberry no grape of apple in it, but what quality and what quantity of blueberries are in there?
> 
> (How's that for a long way around to make a cconnection to wine making?)


And all of that in a thread on copper fermentation barrels!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 20, 2017)

I'm blaming it on the summer heat . That's my story and I'm, sticking to it.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 20, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> I understand that. Before I retired I sold appliances at Lowe's - They really don't make them lik
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Ha, that is funny. In fact, this machine is a high-$ (~$1200) GE Profile that I bought at Sears Outlet scratch-and-dent for small $ (~$300). It had been dropped, and the leg levelers, which were just 1/4-20 threaded pieces, stripped through the threads in the stamped sheet-metal legs. I just put a couple of nuts on the leg levelers, and problem solved!

I don't understand why "panel-ready" appliances cost MORE than appliances that have a finished appearances. Well, I guess I do, but it involves the same reasons that dogs perform some elements of personal hygiene!


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## Scooter68 (Jul 20, 2017)

It's because they are _Special!_ Your are correct, they provide less and charge way more. It's like the "Counter Depth" refrigerators. They are the same price or more than standard (Deeper & Higher Capacity) fridges but you get less storage space because..... yep they too are _"special."_ Anything they don't produce in mass quantities sells at a higher price. Nowadays I feel sorry for folks with low opening area for their fridge because of that same thing. AND selection is so poor.


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## housecopper (Jul 21, 2017)

sour_grapes said:


> Never mind! I found it. http://www.housekeepercrockery.com
> 
> Looks gorgeous.



Thanks! Hahaha glad you found it! www.housecopper.com works too.


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## housecopper (Jul 21, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> I understand that. Before I retired I sold appliances at Lowe's - They really don't make them like they used to. Even Kitchenaid. Great machines - once you get them installed and running. Problem is they have ridiculously weak rear legs and it's not at all unusual to have a $900 dishwasher come in with those legs buckled under. Here's the crazy part of this - The door hinge bracket usually also gets bent and the door won't close correctly. Fixable, yeah but who wants to buy a brand new High dollar dishwasher that had to be 'fixed' before it could even be sold. All they had to do was provide better boxing or a temporary brace for shipping - but in this day of cheaper is better....
> Just another reason I like making my own wine - I know what's in it and how much of every thing. If I buy a bottle of brand 'X' Blueberry wine, Maybe it's even all blueberry no grape of apple in it, but what quality and what quantity of blueberries are in there?
> 
> (How's that for a long way around to make a cconnection to wine making?)



I completely agree about knowing the provenance of your wine. Any your food. And your cookware...but of course.


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## sour_grapes (Aug 13, 2017)

housecopper said:


> Y
> As for copper and acidity...think of all those moscow mule mugs and all the limes they are coming into contact with...acidity is not so instant or so dramatic with copper...(*or every bar serving moscow mule mugs in copper should be now warned about the copper mixing with the acid of the limes!* or...perhaps they are polishing heavily after every use...)



Well, now that you mention it:



> The Moscow mule — that Instagram-ready cocktail that has surged in popularity in recent years — has only a few ingredients: vodka, ginger beer, lime and ice. But perhaps the most crucial component of the drink is the copper mug in which it’s almost always served, beverage aficionados say.
> 
> Now, public health officials are warning that those mugs could be poisoning you.
> An advisory bulletin from Iowa’s Alcoholic Beverages Division notes that, in keeping with Food and Drug Administration guidelines, copper should not come into contact with acidic foods with a pH below 6. That includes vinegar, fruit juice, wine and, yes, a traditional Moscow mule, whose pH is “well below 6.0.” the bulletin says.
> ...



This quote is from this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/08/08/heads-up-moscow-mule-lovers-that-copper-mug-could-be-poisoning-you/


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## housecopper (Aug 15, 2017)

Ah ha! Look at that! Someone found this thread and took it viral!!! We should be all getting all the credit for discussing it WELL BEFORE THE TREND. We are all so dang cool. 

I did a little piece on it on my blog...though I'm not sure I am allowed to post links like that?


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