# Degassing advice for first timer



## Gekko4321 (Jun 1, 2011)

This is my first time degassing. I have a drill mixer and a vacuum pump from George and my wine is in a carboy currently. First, can I degas in a primary bucket? I am in a carboy now and next logical racking would be back to bucket. I could use other carboy if it is a smarter way to do it. Not sure I could use pump in bucket anyway. Would you rec I use both tools (mixer and vacuum) and how does one tell when they are done degassing? In George's video, he seems to have plenty of CO2 rolling after a few trys. Is there a way to know when done?


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## Wayne1 (Jun 1, 2011)

The drill mixer would degas in a bucket but I have always done it in a carboy - minimizes oxygen exposure. You're right that the vacuum pump wouldn't work in an open bucket as it has to have an enclosed space in which to draw a vacuum. I don't have a definitive answer on knowing when you are done!


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## Tom (Jun 1, 2011)

I would not degass in primary. Rack it to secondary, ck gravity, in a few days ck again. If no change add stabilizers. Then degass SLOWLY at 1st just in case.


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## Wade E (Jun 1, 2011)

You can degas in the primary but most dont only because all the sediment is in there and we want to rack off of that most of the time unless the fining agent requires it and it will say to stir it back in and rack over.


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## Flem (Jun 1, 2011)

I do degas in the primary bucket. By the time I've fermented to dry, I'm already in a carboy. I rack back into the bucket, add clearing agents as well as the sorbate and sulphite and then degas. Finally, I rack back into a clean carboy to begin the clearing/aging process. By degassing in the carboy you run the risk of the proverbial wine volcano. 
By the way you can use the vacuum pump to rack from the bucket to a carboy (not degassing) because the vacuum is being drawn out of the receiving carboy thus "sucking" the wine into it. Good Luck!


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## Gekko4321 (Jun 1, 2011)

Yeah, that is what I meant Flem, rack to bucket then degas and then back into carboy. I got another carboy coming now so I won't worry about it anymore. So do you all rec using both the drill mixer and vacuum in a carboy to degas? In which order and when do you know it is okay to stop?


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## PeterZ (Jun 2, 2011)

The CO2 comes out as very tiny bubbles. When you are no longer seeing tiny bubbles coming up the carboy shoulders under vacuum, but start seeing bigger bubbles, then you are done. Since I rack from one carboy to another using a vacuum pump, I get a lot of the degassing done during racking.


The ultimate judge for me is the tongue. I thief out a little wine and taste it. If I can detect no fizziness then it is degassed enough for me.


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## robie (Jun 2, 2011)

Before I got my vacuum pump, I sometimes degassed in my primary. After secondary finished in a carboy, I racked back to the primary for degas. Other times and probably most of the time now, I degas in a glass carboy so I can use my vacuum pump..

If you have both a stirring rod for your drill and a vacuum pump, I would use both. I have not had great luck degassing only with my electric vacuum pump. Seems it needs something inside (or stirring) to help release the CO2. I haven't tried it, but one of the writers (Tim V.) of Wine Making magazine sanitized a bottle brush and lowered it into the wine before starting vacuum egassing. It really sped up the degassing process.

To test if CO2 is gone, put some of the wine in a bottle and shake it really well. If you get the tiny CO2 bubbles or a pop when you release pressure, it still needs degassed. (Oxygen will also cause bubbles, but they will be much bigger bubbles.) As Peter said, you can sure taste if the CO2 is gone.


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## Flem (Jun 2, 2011)

+1 to what to what Peter and Richard said. 
Like Richard, I first degas in the bucket with a drill mounted stirrer and have good success. However, when I use the vacuum pump in the carboy, I have limited success---maybe it's because it's already adequately degassed. However, when trying to vacuum degas, if I gently shake the carboy from side to side, I get a lot of, what appears to be, little bubbles coming up the side of the carboy. Every time I shake it, I get bubbles. I find it hard to believe that I can continue to get gas after all the stirring and vacuum pumping I have done. Maybe I should try the "Shake the Bottle" test to see if I get a "pfffft".


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## robie (Jun 2, 2011)

Flem said:


> +1 to what to what Peter and Richard said.
> Like Richard, I first degas in the bucket with a drill mounted stirrer and have good success. However, when I use the vacuum pump in the carboy, I have limited success---maybe it's because it's already adequately degassed. However, when trying to vacuum degas, if I gently shake the carboy from side to side, I get a lot of, what appears to be, little bubbles coming up the side of the carboy. Every time I shake it, I get bubbles. I find it hard to believe that I can continue to get gas after all the stirring and vacuum pumping I have done. Maybe I should try the "Shake the Bottle" test to see if I get a "pfffft".



I agree completely. I have noticed that shaking the carboy and rotating it some will help.

I have started making a second attempt at degassing just before I bottle. I can really taste the CO2 and except in Champagne, I really despise that taste. So, I try one more time to get out any CO2 left lurking in my wine.


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## Gekko4321 (Jun 2, 2011)

So I am in a carboy now. Spagnols instructions say siphon to bucket or carboy for degassing. At end of degassing it says "if in bucket rack back to carboy". Clearly there is a long road and short road to be read here. Any oxygenation concerns going to bucket for drill stir and then to carboy for vacuum or does added suphite at this stage protect? Is there a sediment fallout after adding stabilizing and clearing agents and degassing? I plan to bulk age too for about 6 months. How long does the sulphite I add in this stage cover me for? George once told me that putting a solid stopper in would not require addtl sulphite. How would u handle this? Thx as always!


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## robie (Jun 2, 2011)

The CO2 present when you rack back to the bucket, will protect the wine from oxidation long enough to degas, then rack back to the carboy. Yes, the K-Meta (sulfites) you add at stabilization should help protect the wine during this double racking, although its primary purpose AT THIS STEP is to shock the yeast to facilitate stopping fermentation. There is not enough K-Meta added at this step to protect the wine during a long bulk aging. 

(Concerning the double racking, utilizing the fermentor bucket, RJS's assumption here is that you have one fermentor bucket and one carboy; since your wine is already in the carboy, you would rack back to the bucket, degas, clean the carboy; then rack back into the carboy to stabilize and clear. Of course if you have multiple carboys, you don't have to rack back to the bucket, even though the bucket works well for stir degassing. Just do what is comfortable for you.)

When you add the clarifiers, you again will get lots of sediment drop out. This clarifying step takes several weeks, depending on your kit instructions. Don't rush this step.

If you bulk age, more K-Meta should be added every 2 or 3 months. The amount is estimated to be from 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon. (I add 1/8) However, the better approach is to test for the true level of free SO2 with a test kit. Most of us, for the first couple of years of wine making just add the extra K-Meta every 2 months, because the free SO2 testing can be a real challenge, unless you are willing to spend the extra money to purchase a better testing method. 

There is some debate over bulk aging utilizing a solid bung, versus a bung and air lock. George knows his wine making, so go with the advice he gives you. Once you become experienced, you can take a look at the different alternatives and decode what seems right for you.


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## Flem (Jun 2, 2011)

Again, I agree with everything Richard said. However, I use 1/4 tsp of K-meta every 3 months. 
Another thing to keep in mind is that once you have degassed, stabilized and racked back into a carboy, make sure you keep your wine topped up to within an inch or twoof the bung.


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## Gekko4321 (Jun 2, 2011)

It is so great to have you experts to lean on during my first wine foray! I would like to pick your minds looking ahead if ok. So after degassing and doing one additional transfer 2 weeks later, I would then begin a 6 month bulk aging regimine as I understand/plan it. When would you add the k meta under an airlock? At what intervals-initial, 3, 6 months? Solid bung makes sense to me since it acts like a bottle (except cork breathability?), whereas airlock doesn't pass anymore CO2. What are the arguments against the solid bung? I also plan to cold stabilize so does that mean I can skip adding the metatartaric acid? When would I cold stabilize (for 2 weeks), with 2 weeks to go in 6 month age process? Do I rack at the end of 6 months or go straight into bottle? This is alot and can hopefully take me to finish line for this first timer! Thx again.


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## Tom (Jun 2, 2011)

1st you never want a soild bung. Because of temps and air pressure it will certainly pop off. So, use airlocks.


Generally 1/4tsp every 90 days should work.


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## robie (Jun 2, 2011)

Flem said:


> Again, I agree with everything Richard said. However, I use 1/4 tsp of K-meta every 3 months.
> Another thing to keep in mind is that once you have degassed, stabilized and racked back into a carboy, make sure you keep your wine topped up to within an inch or twoof the bung.



I know, 1/4 is what many say to use, but I personally have always found that to be just too much. I am really sensitive to the taste of sulfites. Going with 1/4 is certainly OK.

I don't want to argue with George about the solid bung for aging; he has been making wine a long time and has a reason for saying that. Me? I keep an air lock on during the entire bulk aging, but that is just me.

A solid bung can become loose because of pressure differences within the carboy; it can release pressure and it can also suck in some air, under the right circumstances. I just like the idea of allowing constant release of any excess CO2.

I have heard that an air lock on too long will allow aromas to permanently escape from the wine. 

(I am sure there are a lot of opinions out there, so everyone, let's hear them... that's how we will all learn.)


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## Gekko4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

In regard to my question on k meta addition, could you please help me understand what you mean. Every 90 days I hear everywhere but it leaves me confused. First do I apply k meta on day 1 of bulk aging (2 weeks after degassing and freshly transferred)? I get that I apply it 90 days later but do I also apply on the 6 month date when I am about to bottle? I do not want to overdo the k meta, which I hear complaints about, and I still do not know if I am to apply it 1 to 3 times during the bulk aging process. Thx.


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## robie (Jun 3, 2011)

Gekko,

First of all, understand that adding 1/4 teaspoon of Kmeta every 3 months is only a substitute for doing the best thing, which is to actually measure the level of free SO2 and add only enough to bring it up to the proper level.

When you get ready to bottle, if you are measuring, you would do the same thing - measure and make sure the level is right on; adjust; then bottle.

So, it is not easy to answer your question.

Many wine kits used to and some still do say that if you are NOT going to drink your wine within 6 months, right after clearing, when you rack off of the sediment, you should add an extra 1/4 teaspoon of KMeta. For those who bottle right away, this is added just before bottling. (1/4 for six months equals 1/8 every 3 months.. hence my reasoning for adding 1/8 teaspoon every 3 months...) Apparently now, some kits don't include (and maybe some others never did include) instructions for this extra dosage. It is possible that the ones who don't recommend this actually provide a larger dose of KMeta that is added during stabilization, assuming most do NOT drink all their wine within 6 months. However, I don't know if that is accurate or not, but I know someone who does.

No, I would not blindly dump 1/4 teaspoon in right before bottling. If there is too much sulfite in your bottled wine it can take a long, long time for it to be converted so that it can no longer be tasted. 

I don't know if you bought your kit from George or not, but I do believe he would be glad to answer this question for you if you give him a call at the phone # for this forum. He deals with many many kits and really knows his stuff. His emails actually encourage us to call him. He also sells the test kits for testing free SO2.

Give him a call. tell him which kit you have and ask him.


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## robie (Jun 3, 2011)

Oh! Let us all know what George says.


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## Gekko4321 (Jun 3, 2011)

George has told me to put a solid bung in it and not add kmeta. I notice no one else recs that move regularly and so I am basically asking what you would do. Trying to get a concensus from a larger group.


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## robie (Jun 3, 2011)

I would buy the free SO2 test kit from George and use it so you know exactly how much KMeta you need to add.

During any bulk aging, I would test every 3 months or so and adjust. 

When you get ready to bottle, run the test, adjust the level for the particular wine, then bottle.


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## Jwatson (Jun 11, 2011)

I just purchased the Vinmetrica SO2 tester. It was a little pricey, but it is very easy to use and is accurate. It includes enough chemicals for about 50 tests. There is video on Youtube on using it. I know others on this forum like the AO2 rig for testing.

I am happy I purchased it. I have a RJS super tuscan bulk aging. I added the initial k-meta included in the kit on 3/15/11. I tested it today and the free SO2 was 42 ppm. I almost wanted to just add the the standard sulfite addition, but am glad I waited for the tester. I could also still smell the sulfite when I took off the airlock.


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## Gekko4321 (Jun 13, 2011)

Sounds awesome Jwatson. A little pricey for me right now-about $200 I see. Good argument for at least going down to 1/8 teaspoon every 3 months though. I'll need to get one of those someday. Thanks for the data.


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