# Tannins - Know when and why to add them.



## Pumpkinman

I've seen an increase in tannin usage, but I've haven't seen anyone making any indication that they were using any specific type of tannin, The majority of the posts that I've seen were adding a large amount of tannin pre-fermentation.

The purpose of adding tannins is to increase the sensory profile of the wine, stabilize the color and add structure and mouthfeel.

Tannins are listed in 3 different categories and perform very differently depending on which type of tannin you add, and at which stage of the wine making process you add them.

I put together an article to further explain tannins, the three categories, and what we can expect from them.

You can read it here: 

Tannins

or below:

The purpose of addingtannins is to increase the sensory profile of the wine, stabilize the color andadd structure and mouthfeel.
Specific types of tannins are meant to be added at specific times in the wine making process, these tannins perform differently, adding different characteristics and helping to protect and smooth out the wine.

Tannins are divided into 3 categories:

Sacrificial tannins, Cellaring tannins, and Finishing Tannins:


*Sacrificial tannins*-They are not meant to add tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
These are added to the must early in the wine making process they have a Sacrificial effect, they do not to add anything to the wine, but rather to give themselves up as 'sacrificial tannins'.
These tannins combine with proteins and other grape components and precipitate out into the lees. Because these particular tannins are available for those reactions, the natural grape tannins are preserved and are able to combine with water soluble pigments to create optimally stable color.

*Cellaring tannins*- These tannins are added after the first or second racking (after fermentation), they play an important role in the development of wine throughout the aging period in the cellar. They can help protect against oxidation during the storage period, as well as adding subtle differences of flavor and mouthfeel to wines.

*Finishing Tannins*- These Tannins are usually added anywhere between 3 weeks before bottling up to the day before bottling. They are obviously used later in wine aging to impart character that may be lacking from the grapes or barrel.Finishing tannins derived from quality French oak can impart real nice notes of coconut and vanilla, some even impart a perception of sweetness, to a finished wine (Tannin Riche - My favorite).

I hardly ever add Sacrificial Tannins, I prefer to add Finishing and Cellaring tannins, for the flavors and mouth feel that they can impart, but also their antioxidant properties. I've added Finishing tannins such as Tannin Riche, it adds the perception of sweetness (slightly, but enough to balance out some acidity),with a very pleasant, light oak and astringency, Cellaring and Finishing tannins can smooth a wines finish.

Before adding tannins to your must or wine, figure out what you want to accomplish with your tannin addition, make sure that the type of tannin you have is suitable for the job.

Tannins are another great tool in our wine making toolbox to help us make better wine, but like any addition, we need to understand what we are adding, and why we are adding it instead of adding it blindly.

Tom


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## jamesngalveston

excellent post tom...thanks
i have some Tannin Riche..i have not used it yet...i plan to now on my next port.....
again thanks for the post.


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## MrKevin

Tom
Lots of good info..........Thanks


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## Julie

This is a great wealth of information, thanks for sharing Tom.


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## sour_grapes

Bookmarked!! Thank you.


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## the_rayway

Thanks Tom, this is motivating me to start researching the different types of tannins and what they all do in more depth. I've always been a bit confused as to grape vs oak tannins, and if the LHBS sells just a package of 'Tannin' what type is it?!


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## Boatboy24

Good stuff Tom. Thanks. I've been adding some Tancor Grand Cru to a lot of my red kits a month or so before bottling and it has really stepped up my game. I may have to give Tannin Riche a try.


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## Pumpkinman

Thanks for the kind words, the more we understand about what we are adding, the better we can all become.
Rayway, I would stay away from the non descriptive tannins, they could be made from nut shells as well.
Tannin Complex and Tannin refresh are examples of Cellaring tannins, and tannin Riche and Tannin Extra Riche are examples of a finishing tannins, I would purchase online before I bought a generic tannin.
The beauty of it is that you can add a cellaring and finishing tannin (start with light doses) such Tannin Complex, Tannin Estate, FT Blanc, and Tancor Grand Cru.
Tannins are such a great addition if added at the right time!


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## Julie

I made this a sticky, so it will now be more easily accessible.


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## bkisel

Very informative and easy to understand and follow. Thank you...


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## SoCalGuy

Can tannins also be helpful in wine kits or not so very much?


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## dangerdave

Very useful info, Tom. Thank you very much. The more we understand...

I still have a great deal to learn about wine making!


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## Geronimo

SoCalGuy said:


> Can tannins also be helpful in wine kits or not so very much?



Yes they can, but you need to be careful. Kits are balanced so adding oak and tannin can overpower a kit wine.

Some of the tannins are dirt cheap, while others are really high buck. So far I've only experimented with Tancor Grand Cru and I like the result (but I have to admit that I didn't any control batches to identify the difference it makes). My suggestion is to make a kit as-is at least once, then tweak it up a bit gradually.


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## Deezil

Nice to see another one of us taking a stab at teaching something with a little more detail than the average

I'll have to read through your article, and dig through my notes to see what I can add.. I have about as much information on tannins as I do on Yeast Nutrients


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## Pumpkinman

Yes, tannins can be used on kits, I feel that "sacrificial Tannins" the addition of tannins early in the process in kit wine making is wasted, however, cellaring and finishing tannins can be a great benefit to Kits.

Manley, Perfect! Like I've stated before, I am a data junkie, I research fanatic, when I don't understand something, it drives me nuts...lol
The more we all know, the better we will be, when we are able to make educated decisions and understand which choices will benefit us and our particular batch of wine, we will see premium wine being made on a consistent basis!


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## SoCalGuy

I'm doing my secondary fermentation now on a Pinot noir kit from cellar craft. I really want to try and get a fruit fwd, jammy,velvet texture finish with this wine. Going to bulk age it for about four months. Then I will go to bottle. If a tannin will help with this I definitely want to try it.


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## Deezil

SoCalGuy said:


> ...,*velvet texture finish* ...



That's where the tannins will help you...


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## SoCalGuy

Do you know of a good link that will explain what kind of tannins are used to do certain jobs?


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## vernsgal

This was a great post Tom, Thanks


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## Pumpkinman

SoCalGuy:
Here are a few links, each manufacturer will have their version of Sacrificial/Fermentation Tannins, Cellaring Tannins and Finishing Tannins, the most important part in my opinion is to stay away from generic tannins that are listed as "wine tannins" or "tannic acid" these are usually added at the beginning of the wine making process, best suited for fresh grapes and juice buckets.
Something to keep in mind as well, Some wine makers add smaller doses of cellaring and finishing tannins to get different layers of complexity in their wine, much like some commercial wineries will rotate their wine through 2 types of barrels, Medium toast American for instance followed by rotating it into a French oak barrel.

*Scott Labs Overview and list:* Click here, this will bring you to the overview, click on the list on the right side of the page to access the three categories; click on the individual types of tannins to read what they can do for your wine. 

*Laffort Tannins:* Click Here

These two lists contain the most widely used tannins on the market.


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## jamesngalveston

good for u julie,...it needed a sticky.....great info.


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## StoneCreek

Awesome article Tom. Just the info I've been looking for and a thank you to Deezil for pointing it out. It would seem I have some more learning to do tomorrow. Thanks for the tannin links.


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## manvsvine

_*Sacrificial tannins-They are not meant to add tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
These are added to the must early in the wine making process they have a Sacrificial effect, they do not to add anything to the wine, but rather to give themselves up as 'sacrificial tannins'.
These tannins combine with proteins and other grape components and precipitate out into the lees. Because these particular tannins are available for those reactions, the natural grape tannins are preserved and are able to combine with water soluble pigments to create optimally stable color.*_


this isn't really accurate , the yeast fermentation stage tannins are not truely sacraficial but they do add a lot of structure to the wine. there is some bonding with proteins from the added tannins that don't make it into the final wine ( 5-15% of the addition may precipitate out of the wine) , I guess this could be called sacraficial but this is actualy the minority of the impact. more of a side action than principle benefit. and not all products have a strong action or sacraficial effect. 

yeast fermentation stage tannin additions bind with the two types of grape tannins naturally present , the skin and seed tannins and also the pigments of the grapes.

natural tannins from skins and seeds tend to have short molecular chains , they are unstable and want to form longer chains to become stable . this can happen naturaly , some natural binding happens durring ferment and some can happen as the wine ages , thats why ten year old reds are smoother than 1 year old reds.

but adding tannin in the yeast fermentation allows all the short chain tannins in the ferment to find a partner early and form long chains , long chains equals smooth and stable.

with the skin tannins the longer chains that are formed are similar to polimerisation , this improves tannin stability so they don't drop out later as the wine ages , ever had a filtered bottle of red wine later form a uniform coating inside the bottle not just on the bottom. this is tannin instability . very common with super ripe central valley grapes. syrah , zinfandel and cab sauv are particularly vulnerable at high levels of ripeness and matching high PH.

these longer chain tannin formations also improve mouth feel and reduce sharpness especialy if the fruit is a little green because of being under ripe or young vine or hybrid . vegital flavours are also surpressed, this is important if you get any green stem or leaf peices in the must, most basic crussher stemmers leave a little stem jacks in the must. nice brown jacks is ok in moderation but green ones can increase harshness , its almost impossible to pick all these out but tannin or oak dust can mitigate the impact.

the formation of these longer chain bonds are also very important late in yeast ferment as the alcohol level rises and seed tannins start to extract . seed tannins , especially if the seeds are at all green can make a wine very harsh . a tannin addition to reduce the unbound short chain natural tannins followed by delestage seed removal is a key strategy in reduceing rough character .

a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins at 1/3 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.

its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .

yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.

the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.

I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions . 

Central Valley , hot region , high crop loads , high brix high PH , syrah , cab , zin , sangiovese , would be no brainers.
as would any red hybrid or very cold finger lakes type region.

after that , experience and taste will guide you , if you know you like big tannic reds , add tannins durring yeast fermentation.


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## Pumpkinman

manvsvine, As much as I appreciate your in depth knowledge of tannins, when first posting an article that is meant to give our members a general understanding of what, why and when to use tannins, the scientific approach would have been a bit much.
To say that the info is inaccurate is a bit out of line, They are referenced as sacrificial because these tannins are sacrificial in nature. They are not meant to ADD tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
I have to respectfully disagree with


> always add tannins during fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions


, I've used tannins to bring a wine around while bulk aging many times.
Thanks for the info.


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## manvsvine

I don't disagree that finnishing and cellaring tannins can bring a wine around. 
that is kind of my point . finnishing and cellaring tannins are used as an intervention when you taste a wine durring these stages and find it lacking a profile you want, but its not something I would intentionaly build into my wineplan, prefering proactive to reactive measures.

adding tannin durring yeast fermentation is not sacraficial , but structural , they do add tannin to the wine , they add the second half of the tannin chain locking the natural tannin in. they are integral to the tannin structure of the wine.

if used as directed in the manufacturers reccomended dose, they don't primarily sacrifice themselves and precipitate out in the lees ,the opposite is true they form complete long chain polimerised chemical bonds, which are stable over the long term. they actualy prevent the natural tannins they have bonded with from precipitating out as sediment.

I still stand by the idea that early tannin additions are preferable to late corrective additions . if you focus your efforts on the wine in its embrionic state durring yeast fermentation , it won't need braces and a nose job type tannin intervention later. Don't over do it though , go with a moderate dose at the low to midpoint of the manufacturers reccomendations. With hybrids and really green fruit you can go a little higher , maybe 2/3 of the manufacturers reccomendation.

I should highlight that post yeast fermentation additions can result in a much more astringent wine if you add too much. such an addition can stand out much more compared to a fermentation stage addition.

if you need to do a cellaring or finnishing stage addition (I'm not saying that these are not important tools if you need them) , I reccomend adding half as much as you think you need , let it age for a month , then reasses and add more if you need to.
if you are heavy handed with a late stage tannin addition , blending in a less tannic wine is the most effective relief. long ageing in a barrel, ie 18- 24 months also helps as the micro ox has a softening effect on tannins.


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## Pumpkinman

Mansvine,
I don't plan on any additions other than what my test results indicate that I might need to balance the wine. 
I don't really think that you understand the intent of these articles, at no point did I say that anyone should, by default add tannins to their wine, but since there has been a lot of posts regarding the addition of generic tannins pre fermentation, my intention was to explain tannins and the fact that there are many different tannins that can add to the sensory profile of the wine if used at specific times.
A large portion of WMT members make Kit wine and wine made from juice buckets, these juice buckets can render a flabby wine, with little body and mouthfeel, the addition of tannins is a cost effective, not to mention fairly easy way to add to the wine. 
Once again, no one stated that this is the only way to make wine, any wine maker would prefer to be proactive. The goal of the article wasn't to provide what I call "data overload", the goal was to spotlight another tool that can be used to help make a better wine, I've had the opportunity to give presentations for various groups, the one thing that i try to keep in mind is that while you may know every in and out of a selected topic, the group may not, if I start putting "the cart before the horse" and start explaining in depth while the group is just starting to get comfortable with a subject, it will turn some away. 
We can call the Sacrificial Tannins, fermentation tannins, I think that you might have taken the word "sacrificial" too literal, this is the term that is used by Winemakermag, Laffort and others, while Scott labs uses "fermentation tannins". 
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.


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## sour_grapes

manvsvine said:


> adding tannin durring ferment is not sacraficial , but structural , they do add tannin to the wine , they add the second half of the tannin chain locking the natural tannin in. they are integral to the tannin structure of the wine.
> 
> they don't sacrifice themselves and precipitate out in the lees ,the opposite is true they form complete long chain polimerised chemical bonds, which are stable over the long term. they actualy prevent the natural tannins they have bonded with from precipitating out as sediment.



I would *love* to learn more about this. (I just added some cheap, generic chestnut tannins to a fermentation.) Do you have a reference for this information?


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## manvsvine

the best place to find the latest on wine processing aids like tannins and SIY (other than the manufacturers ) is the two main industry publications.

http://www.winesandvines.com/

http://www.winebusiness.com/

they both have searchable databases and loads of articles , they are however much more technical than winemaker mag but anyone with grade 10 science and a basic knowledge of winemaking should be fine.

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf

scott labs 2013 fermentation hand book is also a great resource.

something I didn't discuss was criteria for selecting tannin products , some are wood extracts , some are combined wood and grape skin extracts and some are skin only extracts .

Scott labs sells 6 differnt tannins just for yeast fermentation stage , plus 5 that can be used for cellaring or finnishing. 

I'll stop short there as I've been made aware I produce scientific data overload for this forum ( a risk any wine educator runs , I guess , a passion for sharing knowledge ) but reading the scott labs book you should get an idea of why and when each of the products are used.

the wines and vines and WBM data bases are good places to learn about the interactions between the various additions , ie enzymes combined with tannins and optired . intersted folks can do theri own research.


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## geek

I wonder if that is why we see Joe putting his tannin in secondary all the times.


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## Pumpkinman

> I wonder if that is why


What part are you wondering why?


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## geek

Perhaps I shouldn't say I wonder, but I meant that is probably the reasoning why joe uses his tannins in secondary all the times.
I would guess he has learned this way to be most effective for him.

At the end of the day what I see is that some techniques apply more in some cases than others and what may work for one may not work for someone else.


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## Pumpkinman

Geek, Absolutely, this way has worked for him, my only question has been the type of tannin used, I'm use to seeing a few grams per gallon.


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## manvsvine

his secondary is a restarted yeast fermentation ( he does an amarone style restart with raisins as opposed to an innoculated MLB secondary) this still a yeast fermentation so the active yeast still have an influance on the tannin assimilation , its similar to the way yeast interact with oak dust etc added during yeast ferment.

he uses a generic tannin. the newer fermentation stage tannins have been formulated to be much more soluable than the products of just a few years ago. more souluable equals more reactive and easier to bond with the natural tannins.

finishing and cellaring stage tannin addition comments refer to those added to a wine after all activity has stopped and the wine is biologically stable. usually after racking off the lees & so2 has been added.


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## manvsvine

I found the "sacraficial tannin" refernce in winemaker mag

http://winemakermag.com/1244-red-wine-color-stability-techniques

Bob Peak is a super guy , a bit guilty of over generalisation on the bonding and the term sacraficial tannin is his own , its not an industry term, here is what he said , its not 100% acurate but I can see where Tom is coming from now. Peak has dumbed things down a bit too much, thats why reading multiple sources is helpful at times .

its interesting his reccomendation for tannin addition timeing is the same as mine. not surprising as this is the industry standard , not something either of us came up with. thats why scott labs makes 6 fermentation stage formulations of tannin products.

" When grapes are crushed and soaked, colored pigments called anthocyanins are released into the juice. Some of these combine with grape tannins to form soluble compounds that remain in the wine, providing color. Other reaction products, however, are less soluble and drop out of the wine, taking color with them. Purified tannin products are formulated to provide “sacrificial tannins” that will take the place of grape tannins that otherwise might precipitate. In so doing, they help maintain a higher concentration of the soluble grape tannin/anthocyanin complexes in the developing wine. So as the color is released from the skin cells, with or without added enzymes, the sacrificial tannins help keep the color in solution and maintain its presence on into the finished wine.

Because of the release cycle of the native compounds in grapes, the recommended tannin addition step is at or just after the onset of yeast fermentation. Tannin powder may be sprinkled directly on top of the rising cap and mixed in during the first punchdown of a new red wine fermentation. Use rates can vary widely, so you may need to experiment on your wines for best effects. Typical ranges are from about 50 to 250 g/1,000 pounds of fruit." - Bob Peak - WMM


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## StoneCreek

Wow. Who knew I could learn so much in just a few pages of post. While I truly understand that most of what I read in all the threads here is meant for the average new home wine maker it's nice to see a few post that go over the top. Those that seem like data overload to some draw me in like a fly to fruit. I appreciate that I first read the article by Tom which gave me a better understanding to what manvsvine was trying to convey. I look forward to jumping into all the links provided to additional in depth info with both feet! When it come to information some of us can't get enough. I know it's not for everyone but we all play in the same sandbox.


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## Pumpkinman

David,
I'm happy that you found the article interesting, I want to thank manvsvine for going deeper into the subject, if this can help to understand why and when to add tannins, it will help us to become better wine makers.


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## RegionRat

Thanks manvsvine, I am a little slow at grasping these things. Addition of tanin is starting to make sense to me now. 

RR


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## TomK-B

This is a great thread! Packed full of information that I'm feeling in need of right about now. I've been involved in home wine making for three and a half years now. To this point I've mad only kits from the full range of price levels. But I have in mind to branch out during the next 12 months. I've actually already begun experimenting with alternate yeast and other additives in my wines. And I intend to continue this during 2014. In addition, I'm going to experiment with fermenting in stainless steel rather than plastic and see what difference that makes. And I'm planning to try my hand with at least one frozen must bucket and in September I'm going to get some fresh grapes and try a batch from those. So, this discussion on tannins is very timely. I plan to read and reread this thread and the links you all have provided so that I can continue to develop my wine making skills. Thanks so much, Tom!!!


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## Deezil

manvsvine said:


> I'll stop short there as I've been made aware I produce scientific data overload for this forum ( a risk any wine educator runs , I guess , a passion for sharing knowledge ) but reading the scott labs book you should get an idea of why and when each of the products are used.



Just wanted to say thank you, as I can tell by reading this over the past few days that you've taken some time to go back through this thread and add all kinds of extra tidbits, and information. I know, having done it before myself, that it takes time and patience to make sure you get it right. Thanks again.

Feel free to 'data overload' me at any/every turn, I tend to thrive on it. It might take me a minute to respond personally, but that's only because I enjoy the learning process as much as I enjoy making better wines. 


Pumpkinman, thanks for starting this thread and kicking off what appears to continue to be, a rather in-depth lesson into the 'in's and out's' of tannins.


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## Pumpkinman

Manley, I agree, I enjoy learning, any info that I can get to help me going in the right direction is greatly appreciated.


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## manvsvine

Since this seems to have been well received by most , I'll continue .

Scott labs sells 6 differnt tannins just for yeast fermentation stage , plus 5 that can be used for cellaring or finnishing. so a winemaker has a lot of choice , my advice is use a low to moderate dose and match character to grape type and condition . 


with fermentation tannins some options may be (only suggestions, make up your own mind) 
for under ripe, american or hybrid red grapes , I'd use a bolder tannin, probably 100% wood extract. I like FT rouge for this , its also great for big new world style reds like california cab.

for pinot noir I might use oak chips or dust ( the subtlest option for tannin addition is oak dust or chips ) or grape skin based tannins for subtler effect , FT rouge SOFT or UVAtan soft. 

Zinfandel ,syrah , sangiovese , you could go either way . I like UVA tan , maybe vr supra .

read the product descriptions , you've got lots of choices , its even possible to split your ferments and use one type of tannin in one fermenter and something else or none on the other and blend them back together when you go to barrel, this creats a layered effect and more complex wine.

those of you already doing differnt yeasts in different fermenters would find this a natural next step.

all this said , with my own wines I don't always use tannins as part of my wine plan, if I'm trying to make a more european style wine ( I love french wines) I don't use tannins , I'll use medium toast french oak chips or dust or maybe nothing . But if trying to make a big monster bold new world style red , then Ft Rouge goes in the primary in a medium dose.

just to really shake things up , and show you that there are so many options for a winemaker .
last fall I made cab sauv , merlot and cab franc , not yet blended but mlf is finnished

but these will be blended as they co to barrel . I used enxymes , otpti red and ft rouge in the cab , enzymes and no tannins or oak in the merlot and no enzymes but american and french oak dust and optired (dust tames the vegital character cab franc may have) in the cab franc.

one barrel ( American ) will be 70% cab , 20% merlot and 10% cab Franc

the other (Hungarian) 70% merlot , 20% cab and 10% cab franc.

this will create two complex , very different wines when it comes time to bottle.

somewhere between new and old world style , the cab forward one more new and the merlot forward one a little old world but neither is 100% in either camp, kinda mid atlantic.


TMI?


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## Pumpkinman

manvsvine,
Nope keep on going, I agree 100% as tannins are not needed for all wine, we've been playing around with the idea of making a few blends as well, this is where things get real interesting.
Sounds like a few nice Bordeaux blends, I'm going to make a super Tuscan using the Sangiovese, Cab Sav and Merlot, this fall I hope to be able to purchase grapes to make a GSM, my wife and I fell in love with this blend.
I believe that you mentioned that you were a wine educator? I'd like to hear more! Your knowledge is a great addition, thanks for sharing.


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## geek

good discussions.....keep them coming..!!


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## Deezil

manvsvine said:


> a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins at 1/3 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.
> 
> its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .
> 
> yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.
> 
> the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.
> 
> I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions .



Would it be fair to say that fermentation tannins, alongside the other pre-fermentation and fermentation additions you mentioned, are affecting the "base layer" of the wine, to which you can add on-to later with cellaring and finishing tannins, among other products? 

I guess I dont see the cellaring and finishing tannins so much as covering up flaws I didn't notice previously or errors I may have made along the way, as I see them a chance to create additional layers of flavors/sensations. Maybe I'm looking for more understanding on why the importance that's put on getting the fermentation-stage additions dialed in, isn't carried through the following (cellaring, finishing) stages - is it just because if you've got it right during the ferment, that tweaks/layers later on simply arent needed? Do they over-complicate the senses in some way?

Most of my experience so far lies in fruit wines and meads, which by nature are hard to over-complicate so my wine making style has tended more towards an angle of creating as many layers in the wine as possible.. I'm not sure if there's a point at which, with grapes, that layering effect becomes a negative. 



manvsvine said:


> I don't disagree that finnishing and cellaring tannins can bring a wine around.
> that is kind of my point . finnishing and cellaring tannins are used as an intervention when you taste a wine durring these stages and find it lacking a profile you want, but its not something I would intentionaly build into my wineplan, prefering proactive to reactive measures.
> 
> ...
> 
> I still stand by the idea that early tannin additions are preferable to late corrective additions . if you focus your efforts on the wine in its embrionic state durring yeast fermentation , it won't need braces and a nose job type tannin intervention later. Don't over do it though , go with a moderate dose at the low to midpoint of the manufacturers reccomendations. With hybrids and really green fruit you can go a little higher , maybe 2/3 of the manufacturers reccomendation.
> 
> I should highlight that post yeast fermentation additions can result in a much more astringent wine if you add too much. such an addition can stand out much more compared to a fermentation stage addition.
> 
> if you need to do a cellaring or finnishing stage addition (I'm not saying that these are not important tools if you need them) , I reccomend adding half as much as you think you need , let it age for a month , then reasses and add more if you need to.
> if you are heavy handed with a late stage tannin addition , blending in a less tannic wine is the most effective relief. long ageing in a barrel, ie 18- 24 months also helps as the micro ox has a softening effect on tannins.



I would agree with the assessment that post-fermentation tannin additions are a little more "bold", and that it generally takes less to get the impact than one would first think - adding half & allowing it to impact the wine before adding the second half is definitely sound advice. 

I just cant see Lallemand going through the trouble of creating so many post-fermentation tannin formulations, only to cover up flaws or fruit imperfections. Not trying to nag, but what's the driving force behind looking at cellaring and finishing tannins as 'reactive' as opposed to 'proactive' measures?



manvsvine said:


> the best place to find the latest on wine processing aids like tannins and SIY (other than the manufacturers ) is the two main industry publications.
> 
> http://www.winesandvines.com/
> 
> http://www.winebusiness.com/
> 
> they both have searchable databases and loads of articles , they are however much more technical than winemaker mag but anyone with grade 10 science and a basic knowledge of winemaking should be fine.
> 
> http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf
> 
> scott labs 2013 fermentation hand book is also a great resource.
> 
> *something I didn't discuss was criteria for selecting tannin products , some are wood extracts , some are combined wood and grape skin extracts and some are skin only extracts *.



Thanks for the links; I've yet to locate the articles on Wine and Vines, but I've been subscribed to WBM for quite a while now; definitely a worthwhile magazine to check out

The Scotts Lab Handbook, for anyone who didn't catch it the first time, is definitely worth the read; a few times. 

Can I talk you into expanding on what the different types of tannin products that you mentioned, bring to the table - when are they best used / to reduce or enhance what characteristics the best? This is one area that is actually still rather foggy to me.

I see in one of the following posts, you hint that oak dust & chips, or grape seed tannins have a more subtle effect than FT Rouge - which is a wood extract?



manvsvine said:


> for under ripe, american or hybrid red grapes , I'd use a bolder tannin, probably 100% wood extract. I like FT rouge for this , its also great for big new world style reds like california cab.
> 
> for pinot noir I might use oak chips or dust ( the subtlest option for tannin addition is oak dust or chips ) or grape skin based tannins for subtler effect , FT rouge SOFT or UVAtan soft.
> 
> ....
> 
> read the product descriptions , you've got lots of choices , its even possible to split your ferments and use one type of tannin in one fermenter and something else or none on the other and blend them back together when you go to barrel, this creats a layered effect and more complex wine.



Is this last part, your ideal way to create a layering complexity in your wines, when a situation arises that that is what you desire? 

From the sounds of it, you have a lot of experience with red grapes, I'm just trying to apply the knowledge to bridge the gap to the fruit wines & meads/melomel world.


----------



## geek

also, I think it may be good to define what a tannin is (I know there's Google out there....), what is the definition of it and when by taste you think you really need to add it.
I need to re-read the posts again in case I missed that, but all in all that info may be a good idea to be defined as detailed as possible for all of those, including me, getting into the knowing of tannin.

I hope that makes sense.


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## Pumpkinman

Tannin tastes dry and astringent, I can't tell you if you need to add tannins, that is up to you and your preference in wine.


----------



## manvsvine

*" Would it be fair to say that fermentation tannins, alongside the other pre-fermentation and fermentation additions you mentioned, are affecting the "base layer" of the wine, to which you can add on-to later with cellaring and finishing tannins, among other products? 

I guess I dont see the cellaring and finishing tannins so much as covering up flaws I didn't notice previously or errors I may have made along the way, as I see them a chance to create additional layers of flavors/sensations. Maybe I'm looking for more understanding on why the importance that's put on getting the fermentation-stage additions dialed in, isn't carried through the following (cellaring, finishing) stages - is it just because if you've got it right during the ferment, that tweaks/layers later on simply arent needed? Do they over-complicate the senses in some way?

Most of my experience so far lies in fruit wines and meads, which by nature are hard to over-complicate so my wine making style has tended more towards an angle of creating as many layers in the wine as possible.. I'm not sure if there's a point at which, with grapes, that layering effect becomes a negative. "*

Durring the fermentation stage you have the grape skins, pulp, seeds in the fermenter with the juice. this is your opportunity to make the fruit shine , the trick is to maximise the natural gifts the grape has to offer. so you use enzymes, 12 hours after crush ( complex blends that target the cell structure of the skins and get the grapes to release more flavour , colour and aromatics not old school generic pectic enzyme) you use a moderate to low dose of tannins ( be it oak dust or tannin product) to lock in and stabilise the natural tannin , color and flavours so whats in the fermenter makes it into the final wine. ( add 24 to 72 hours after enzymes) 

you use yeast nutrient and maybe a yeast product like optired to keep the yeast healthy so it will ferment to dryness , not produce any off flavours , VA or H2S . Again this is to let the natural fruit shine through .

what the winemaker has to do is let the fruit show its best without masking it to the point where the additions speak more than the grapes do.

this takes expirience , I can't teach you that nor can any book . but as a starting point I'd focus on keeping the yeast healthy using nutrient .
then try using some oak dust in the primary , learn what that does. 
and if you feel you want to try some tannins , start with the minimum dose . 

I think it was Daniel Pambianachi who said that your additions should be like a makeup on a beutiful woman. If done right you won't know they are there , it just enhances the natural beauty.

the focus on fermentation stage is so that these additions are there when the yeast and the grapes are and able to be metabolised and integrated by the live yeast and also so that they are there to interact with the grapes at the time when the grapes are releasing their gifts into the wine. if making ajuice pail with no skins you still have the benefit of the active yeast so I would still focus on the yeast fermentation stage for your enhancements. 

it only happens once this magical combination of events. you don't want to miss it.

as for the companies producing products for post fermentation , well all these products are developed for the commercial wine industry to sell more wine. post fermentation tannin additions are to improve a wine that has holes in its profile , so it sells better . they are also often used to save money in a barrel program , to allow wineries to use 3 or 4 year old barrels and use ageing tannin additions to make up for the tannin that has leached out of the older barrels durring previous fills.
there are commerical drivers in winemaking.

the biggest selling wines in the world don't contain the best grapes , they make 5 million cases of one brand from mass produced grapes , highly irrigated and feritlised with maximum crop loads. and every single bottle of those 5 million cases has to taste excatly like all the others and the same as they did the year before. The number one selling wine in north america is yellow tail , buy a bottle and try it. its the most manipulated product ( I won't call it wine) I know, to me it tastes like sugar, tannin plus and a factory. try it you'll see what I mean , its a case of the additives showing more than the grapes do. I can't tell their shiraz from their merlot or cab .


the better the grapes the less corrective tweaking is needed.

as for fruit and mead wines, well I would focus on keeping the yeast healthy and using nutrient but tannin additions may very well have no place in the making of most fruit and mead wines.
I don't know , I rarely make fruit wines and I have never tasted a mead I liked so I've never made it. but it makes sence that not everything develped for grapes translates to fruit and mead.
not everything for red wines translates to whites . there are tannin products specifically for white wines but I never use them . maybe these would work better for fruit and mead , I don't know .

but I would think that enzymes to extract the best out of the fruit and inactivated yeasts like booster blanc or noblesse (to improve aromatics and mouthfeel)would have some application in fruit wine and mead.


----------



## SoCalGuy

My Pinot noir has been bulk aging for 2 months now. It is a cellar craft kit. I added French oak med toast blocks with it. To me it just seems flat. Not a lot of body to it. I am planning on bulk aging for 4 to 6 months and then I will go to bottle. Any suggestions?


----------



## Pumpkinman

What is the TA level, some times a little tartaric acid will liven things up.


----------



## SoCalGuy

Not sure. My first kit so all I really know is getting the SG. I take it that makes a big difference. I will read on that more.


----------



## SoCalGuy

Ok, got it. They say with the wine kits that they already have it all figured out. Now, for me. I don't like the way it is. What I see is that it being a Pinot noir the TA should be around 0.60%-0.70%. I am going to go pick up a titration kit and see what I have. Because reading on it sounds very much like the issue that I am having.


----------



## Dino466

Pumpkinman, thanks for the thread - I think I understand more why and how and when. I never would try adding anything to a kit - not real sure about my skills - but this thread has made me think about trying ( when I think it needs it). Mansvine - very interesting. Always good advice on this forum.


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## seth8530

Good thread,I think I might pick up some tannins from Scott labs to add to my Pinot Rose.


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## Pumpkinman

Dino466, I'm happy that you like the info!


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## Geronimo

Dino466 said:


> I never would try adding anything to a kit



I've added post-fermentation tannins to kit wines, but not fermentation tannins. I can't imagine how you'd know how much to add, or what kind.


----------



## manvsvine

Well every additive comes with a manufactures recommended amount.

For fermentation tannins ft rouge is a great all rounder and is easy to get . Morewine sells it in small amounts http://morewinemaking.com/products/tannin-ft-rouge.html

The recommended dose is .8 to 1.9 grams per gallon. For a kit you will probably want to go with the low end of the recommended range .

More wine gives some helpful information with each product

How Fermentation Tannins Work 

Designed specifically for North American red wine fermentations, Scott'Tan FT Rouge is composed of exotic wood and chestnut tannins. These highly reactive tannins bind with anthocyanins (color compounds) in the first 3-4 days of fermentation. If sufficient natural tannins are not present in must, anthocyanins may precipitate, resulting in a loss of color. Using an enzyme like Lallzyme EX in conjunction with FT Rouge can enhance this binding of color. The continual bonding going on throughout the ferment will also improve the mid palate structure and help either significantly reduce or eliminate vegetal/herbaceous characters. Tannin additions at this early stage prove to be most efficient and are better integrated into the wine.


----------



## Pumpkinman

After putting a wine through Redulees to correct an issue, I found that it had stripped the tannic astringency that I look for in this particular wine, I was fairly unimpressed with the wine at that point, I added Tannin Riche in small doses approx 4 weeks apart, the last addition I used Tannin Riche Extra, and waited 6 weeks before sampling it, I found the desired level that I was after and bottled the wine, now approx. 3 months after bottling, the wine not only tastes great, but it is as good as the commercial varieties that I've purchased, these usually run between $40 on the low end to upwards of $65 -$90 or more on the high end, so far it has been a crowd pleaser, when decanted for 45 mins to an hr, it opens up real nice.
It has been stated before, but make sure that you start off with small doses, you can always add more.


----------



## sour_grapes

Pumpkinman said:


> each manufacturer will have their version of Sacrificial/Fermentation Tannins, Cellaring Tannins and Finishing Tannins, the most important part in my opinion is to stay away from generic tannins that are listed as "wine tannins" or "tannic acid"



Man, there are tannins and there are tannins! As noted earlier, I bought generic tannins (from chestnut tree galls) before Tom started this thread. The first time I used it, I stirred my dose into a half of a coffee cup of water. Before adding to the wine, I took a _little_ sip. Ugh ughh, ptoooey, spit, argh, yuck.   . I couldn't get it out of my mouth fast enough. I knew it would be bitter/astringet/gross, but it exceeded my expectations by a lot.

In the meantime, I bought Tannin Rouge, Tannin Complex, and Tannin Riche. I have only used Tannin Riche so far. The other day I mixed up a half coffee cup of Tannin Riche. (To be fair, this was a much lower dose than the generic tannin batch.) Well, of course I took a small sip. Hmmm, not bad. A bit bitter and astringent, but also with cocoa notes, coffee, vanilla, spice, a hint of sweetness, mmmmmm, it was kinda nice!


----------



## Pumpkinman

Paul,
This is great news! When you finally taste the difference between the generic tannins and the higher quality tannins, you open up a whole new world! this is one of the main reasons that I've wrote about this tannins, in my opinion, there was a lot of talk about blindly dumping large amounts of generic tannins into wine. These higher quality tannins require fractions of the amount that were being added to render much different results.
The Tannin Riche Extra also adds a hint of coconut as well. 
My hat is off to you for trying them out!


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## Matty_Kay

Pumpkinman- how far out before bottling do you typically add the tannin riche?

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Wine Making mobile app


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## Tess

thanks for this thread I'v learned a lot


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## manvsvine

You need to add a finishing tannin at least 5 weeks before bottling to allow it to polimerise and get max benefit

But you can get away with 3 weeks in a pinch , but a little longer is better.


http://www.scottlab.com/product-132.aspx

You can also add a finishing tannin when adding wine to a neutral barrel .


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## Deezil

Yeah, everything I've read says about ~6 weeks for polymerization and settling


----------



## sour_grapes

manvsvine said:


> You need to add a finishing tannin at least 5 weeks before bottling to allow it to polimerise and get max benefit
> 
> But you can get away with 3 weeks in a pinch , but a little longer is better.





Deezil said:


> Yeah, everything I've read says about ~6 weeks for polymerization and settling




What do you suppose is the "penalty" for adding the tannin too close to bottling? It may drop some sediment in the bottle, I am guessing?


----------



## Deezil

Basically..

I dont remember what effect that sediment plays over time though.. Not sure if it's just unappealing or will, over time, alter the characteristics of the wine..


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## Pumpkinman

The difference that an extra few weeks makes is really impressive to say the least, I would think that there would be sediment in the bottle and frankly, if you taste a wine only a few weeks after adding tannins, it tastes like wine and tannins, after 8 weeks or so I tasted my wine and it really "married" into the wine, as if it were the natural tannins from the wine.
I hope that makes some kind of sense.


----------



## Geronimo

The other thing to note is the method of adding a finishing tannin. Pull about 10 ounces of wine from the carboy, mix in the tannin (completely yet gently), then add it gently back to the carboy and stir well. If you intend to just plop it on the bottom and rack over it, you'll get about half the effect in my experience. Sprinkling it on top and letting it settle through would be a better choice I guess. It's like oak; it will impart itself into the wine but if yeast/sediment drops on top of it, it's pretty much wasted.


----------



## sour_grapes

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.



Pumpkinman said:


> The difference that an extra few weeks makes is really impressive to say the least



Yeah, but my question is why those weeks are recommended to transpire while the wine is in a large container instead of while the wine is in a small container.



Geronimo said:


> The other thing to note is the method of adding a finishing tannin. Pull about 10 ounces of wine from the carboy, mix in the tannin (completely yet gently), then add it gently back to the carboy and stir well.



Good! This is exactly how I have been doing it due to dumb luck, so I am glad to hear this is preferred.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Paul,
If I’m understanding correctly, you are asking why it is that it is recommended to wait 4-6 weeks from the time you make a tannin addition until the time we bottle?

To answer this, I’m going to try to get a bit deeper into the whole tannin discussion and explain tannins without too much, scientific terminology, this is a generalization:

Tannins are large molecules made up of linked sub units, the chemical make-up of the tannins is actually changed during the winemaking process, creating chains, the chains then break, not only does the chain length change, but the different chemical entities that stick to the phenolic sub units (a class of chemical compounds consisting of a hydroxyl group bonded directly to an aromatic hydrocarbon group.) also changes.

The bonds between tannin polymers are repeatedly breaking and reforming. 
This is a complex, dynamic process, the various phenolic subunits of tannins are sticking to each other and other chemical components of the wine in a sequential pattern, with these bonds being broken and reformed in a temporal sequence.

To summarize, the process of converting a monomer or a mixture of monomers into a polymer is called polymerization.

So, to answer your question, we bulk age for the following reasons.


To allow full reaction and polymerization.

Some Red wines need over a year of carboy or barrel aging to mellow out the harsh tannins.

Over time tannins get bigger, become insoluble, and fall out of solution, this will be seen as sediment in bottles if you decide to bottle age versus bulk aging.

When adding tannins, anyone that has used tannins will agree that tannin in general do not dilute easily, another concern of mine would be the fact that individual bottles may not have the same level of tannins.

One of the more important reasons to bulk age would be the ability to taste the wine and make additions that may be needed, once the wine is in the bottle and corked, it makes it difficult to make adjustments.

I hope that this helps.


----------



## sour_grapes

Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. My interest in understanding this comes from my desire to strike the right (for me) balance between aging time and kit throughput with a limited number of carboys. (“The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan.” Carl von Clausewitz) My schedule at present has me bottle at about 3.5 months after pitching yeast. This gives about 3 months in the carboy. 

I really don't see the relevance of the discussion of chemical changes. Those can occur as easily in the bottle as in the carboy (unless you think the greater accessibility to oxygen that is characteristic of a carboy is needed to promote the chemical changes in this case).

I understand that, once bottled, you cannot add any more adjuncts, so I definitely agree it is best to get the adjuncts the way you want them before bottling. I also agree that is best accomplished by allowing a lot of the aging to occur before bottling, so you can taste-test closest to the desired outcome. 

Your contention about limited solubility possibly leading to bottle-to-bottle variation is interesting and may be compelling. I have been doing as Geronimo suggested and initially mixing the tannin powder very well with some wine. I think next time I do that, I will have to wait a few hours before adding to the must to see if any powders settle out in that time frame.

So, as I understand it, I would contend that the "penalties" of bottle aging vs. bulk aging are:
-some sediment
-no "do-overs."
(-jury still out on solubility)


----------



## Runningwolf

So, as I understand it, I would contend that the "penalties" of bottle aging vs. bulk aging are:
-some sediment
-no "do-overs."
(-jury still out on solubility)
__________________
Paul

Paul you pretty much summed this up but you can a do-over. I've dumped more than one batch back into the carboy. AGGGGG
The other this is with a real cork, the wine will age faster in the bottle.


----------



## sour_grapes

Thanks, Dan. 

I would like note more explicitly that I was not seeking to revivify the bulk-vs-bottle-age discussion _in general,_ which has been widely discussed. Rather, just seeking to understand the part about aging of finishing tannins.


----------



## Pumpkinman

Damn Paul, you've summed it up!
I think it is interesting, you're asking the questions that most of us have thought about, any level of clarifying a topic is great!


----------



## manvsvine

Look who's all scientific now! 
Way to go ! No need to dumb it down. 

In addition , waiting the 6 weeks (more is even better) allows the wine to become consistently uniform but if you don't wait you will get more sediment and more bottle variation.


----------



## Pumpkinman

I was waiting for you to post something like that...lol


----------



## Matty_Kay

Fantastic discussion and learning tool regarding tannins. I was wondering if anyone that uses or used finishing tannins also bulk aged with oak prior to the tannin addition?

Or does the use of oak and a finishing tannin create an undesirable profile? Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!


----------



## Julie

Matty_Kay said:


> Fantastic discussion and learning tool regarding tannins. I was wondering if anyone that uses or used finishing tannins also bulk aged with oak prior to the tannin addition?
> 
> Or does the use of oak and a finishing tannin create an undesirable profile? Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!


 
great question, I am interested as well.


----------



## Geronimo

Matty_Kay said:


> Fantastic discussion and learning tool regarding tannins. I was wondering if anyone that uses or used finishing tannins also bulk aged with oak prior to the tannin addition?
> 
> Or does the use of oak and a finishing tannin create an undesirable profile? Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!



I've used toasted oak beans many times during bulk aging together with tannins. Most finishing tannins are oak derivatives. I haven't noticed anything bad from it.


----------



## TinyPirate

Interesting stuff! I know fruit wines often call for tannin, I am interested in the thoughts that this could be pointless. Is there anyone reading able to comment from experience on using (or not) tannins in their fruit wine production?


----------



## Bartman

manvsvine said:


> this will create two complex, very different wines when it comes time to bottle.
> Somewhere between new and old world style , the cab forward one more new and the merlot forward one a little old world but neither is 100% in either camp, kinda mid atlantic.



LOL - I like that use of 'mid-Atlantic'. Seems appropriate, though not standard usage.


----------



## TomK-B

Bartman said:


> LOL - I like that use of 'mid-Atlantic'. Seems appropriate, though not standard usage.



Well, I guess 'mid-Atlantic' is a better description than 'Titanic.'


----------



## Paolo_pin

i dare to complete Pumpkinman valuable infos with my own experience. i hope he will be agree with me and that they can be useful for anyone. 

View attachment HOW TO USE TANNINS UNDER DIFFERENT CONDITIONS.pdf


----------



## manvsvine

Scott Labs fermentation handbook is a good source of information on all kinds of wine products .

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf

this is their FAQ on the tannins they carry 

*"When is the best time to add tannins ? How do I add them ?*
Tannins are best added early in the winemaking process. In red wine,
an addition during the fermentation stage integrates tannin into
the wine and offers the greatest opportunity for color stability and
increased mid-palate structure. They can be added at the crusher
or to the tank during the first pump-over, depending on the grape
quality (rotten vs. sound). Additional tannin can be added with each
pump-over. If adding to a white wine, add directly to the grapes at
the crusher or to the tank during a tank mixing.
*
I am using tannin and enzymes . Will SO2 interfere with my
additions ?*
Using all three products together is fine, but timing is important!
High SO2 content can inhibit enzyme activity. Do not add SO2 and
enzymes at the same time. It is okay to add enzymes after the SO2
is adequately dispersed OR to add SO2 after the enzymes are adequately
dispersed. Follow with a tannin addition six to eight hours
later. When enzymes are not being used, add SO2 first, allow to
disperse, then follow with the tannin addition.

*Can I use tannins on white juice and wine ?*
Yes, a tannin addition in white juice may be beneficial to remove
off-aromas, to improve clarification, to inhibit laccase activity from
Botrytis or rot, or to serve as an anti-oxidant. We recommend using
either Uva’Tan, Uva’Tan Soft, FT Blanc or FT Blanc Soft. Tannins
can also be added later to wine to improve mid-palate structure
or softness.

*Why should I use tannins on my “premium ” red grapes ?*
Tannins can be used to protect the color and phenolic structure of
your wines. For the easiest and most efficient integration of tannins,
add FT Rouge or FT Rouge Soft at the crusher. If needed, an addition
of Uva’Tan, Uva’Tan Soft or Estate prior to aging can help reinforce
phenolic balance. During long maturation in barrels, Estate will help
prevent excessive oxidation that can result in loss of structure and
freshness. For improved SO2 management add small amounts of
Estate (5-7.5 g/hL) during each racking.

*Will tannin additions increase color in low -color grape varieties ?*
Tannins do not add color to the must of low color grapes. Recent
research indicates that early addition of tannins such as FT Rouge
allows them to bind up available proteins. This preserves the grapes'
own natural tannins, making them available to bind with the grapes’
anthocyanins and thereby provides increased color stability.


*Why not add oak chips ? Aren ’t they a source of accessible tannin ?*
Oak chips are a source of ellagic (wood) tannin. The level of tannin
available will differ depending upon the wood source and the treatment
regime. When using oak based products, macromolecules
(lignin, cellulose, hemicellulose, etc.) other than oak will be extracted.
The oak based addition may help mask flavors, provide some oxidative
protection and leave an oak finish, but they will NOT improve
mid-palate structure. By contrast, the combination of wood and proanthocyanidic
tannins in FT Rouge or FT Rouge Soft will help improve
structure and color stability.
*
What if I did not add enough tannin during the primary
fermentation ?*
If more tannin structure and flavor is desired post-fermentation,
make additions with Complex or Estate. Addition is best before barrel
aging when tannins can be incorporated into the wine and when
oxidation and polymerization are slow. Refresh, Riche and Riche
Extra are the best tannins to use prior to bottling (3-6 weeks) when
a bit of oak influence is desired. Any of these tannins can be used
throughout winemaking, depending on the desired effect. Bench
trials are required to determine the best tannin for a particular wine
or style.

*Will adding tannins inhibit barrel aging *?
Tannins protect wine from oxidation during barrel aging. The wood
tannins extracted from a new barrel protect the wine from over-oxidation
during the slow process needed for tannin polymerization and
wine development. When using old barrels, indigenous tannin may
have been completely leached out. A small tannin addition of 5-10 g/hL
will act as an anti-oxidant and help protect the wine. Attaining a good
phenolic profile will slow the maturation process and still protect
the wine.
*
Can tannins help remove undesirable astringency or bitterness ?*
Yes. Over-astringency is caused by an imbalance of tannin molecules
or by insufficiently bound tannin complexes. By adding a more
refined, highly polymerized tannin to the wine, the imbalance can be
corrected and the perception of astringency or bitterness reduced.
This frequently improves the perception of fruit.
*
What if I only want to use pure grape tannin in my wine ?*
Uva’Tan (tannins from grape skins and seeds) and Uva’Tan Soft
(tannins from grape skins only) are comprised of 100% grape tannin.
All other tannins are sourced from a combination of grapes,
exotic woods, oak or chestnut."


----------



## Jimyson

This, my friends, was an excellent read. Hats off to the two main contributors for sticking in and digging deeper. For newbies like me, it's greatly appreciated.


----------



## applelover12

how much tannin to add?



Pumpkinman said:


> I've seen an increase in tannin usage, but I've haven't seen anyone making any indication that they were using any specific type of tannin, The majority of the posts that I've seen were adding a large amount of tannin pre-fermentation.
> 
> The purpose of adding tannins is to increase the sensory profile of the wine, stabilize the color and add structure and mouthfeel.
> 
> Tannins are listed in 3 different categories and perform very differently depending on which type of tannin you add, and at which stage of the wine making process you add them.
> 
> I put together an article to further explain tannins, the three categories, and what we can expect from them.
> 
> You can read it here:
> 
> Tannins
> 
> or below:
> 
> The purpose of addingtannins is to increase the sensory profile of the wine, stabilize the color andadd structure and mouthfeel.
> Specific types of tannins are meant to be added at specific times in the wine making process, these tannins perform differently, adding different characteristics and helping to protect and smooth out the wine.
> 
> Tannins are divided into 3 categories:
> 
> Sacrificial tannins, Cellaring tannins, and Finishing Tannins:
> 
> 
> *Sacrificial tannins*-They are not meant to add tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
> These are added to the must early in the wine making process they have a Sacrificial effect, they do not to add anything to the wine, but rather to give themselves up as 'sacrificial tannins'.
> These tannins combine with proteins and other grape components and precipitate out into the lees. Because these particular tannins are available for those reactions, the natural grape tannins are preserved and are able to combine with water soluble pigments to create optimally stable color.
> 
> *Cellaring tannins*- These tannins are added after the first or second racking (after fermentation), they play an important role in the development of wine throughout the aging period in the cellar. They can help protect against oxidation during the storage period, as well as adding subtle differences of flavor and mouthfeel to wines.
> 
> *Finishing Tannins*- These Tannins are usually added anywhere between 3 weeks before bottling up to the day before bottling. They are obviously used later in wine aging to impart character that may be lacking from the grapes or barrel.Finishing tannins derived from quality French oak can impart real nice notes of coconut and vanilla, some even impart a perception of sweetness, to a finished wine (Tannin Riche - My favorite).
> 
> I hardly ever add Sacrificial Tannins, I prefer to add Finishing and Cellaring tannins, for the flavors and mouth feel that they can impart, but also their antioxidant properties. I've added Finishing tannins such as Tannin Riche, it adds the perception of sweetness (slightly, but enough to balance out some acidity),with a very pleasant, light oak and astringency, Cellaring and Finishing tannins can smooth a wines finish.
> 
> Before adding tannins to your must or wine, figure out what you want to accomplish with your tannin addition, make sure that the type of tannin you have is suitable for the job.
> 
> Tannins are another great tool in our wine making toolbox to help us make better wine, but like any addition, we need to understand what we are adding, and why we are adding it instead of adding it blindly.
> 
> Tom


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## Paolo_pin

In order to choose the right tannin, i apply a very simple procedure:
1. prepare a solution 25-30% in alcohol and distillated water
2. dissolve your tannin in ratio 10 g/l
3. the solution can be used dosing 0,1 cc in 100 cc glass wine
4. every dose (0,1 or more) is approx 1 g/hl of tannin in wine

I recommend this solution to use fining tannins and you will get suprised as many times some tannins will get your wine worst. Obviously, it will be very easy to combine different tannins as well. This method can do very fine guessing in winemaking quality improvement.

Paolo Pineschi
italian winemaker


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## BigSell

A little different question, would someone confirm or correct my assumption that finishing Tannins should be added prior to filtering. Seems like they need 3-6 weeks aging, then filter, then bottle?


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## Deezil

BigSell said:


> A little different question, would someone confirm or correct my assumption that finishing Tannins should be added prior to filtering. Seems like they need 3-6 weeks aging, then filter, then bottle?



It can depend on the type of tannin, but that's a good way to go about it, yes;

Add tannins
Wait 6 weeks
Filter
Bottle


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## Paolo_pin

BigSell said:


> A little different question, would someone confirm or correct my assumption that finishing Tannins should be added prior to filtering. Seems like they need 3-6 weeks aging, then filter, then bottle?


I agree with Manley, it depends by tannins. Some tannins are removed by early filtration and thus need some time to react with colloidal fractions and to become more stable in solution. I normally don't wait 6 weeks for a filtration but normally 5-6 days are enough in a large amount of situations. Some wines and some tannins need more time for sure (young red wines, high reactive short chain seed tannins...). White wines are very dangerous if they are not precisely stabilized against proteins. Clouds are very easy in this case and can happen quickly after bottlement. My suggestion is to wait at least 7-10 days to let any kind of reaction in the container before filtration. Eventualy, any kind of preliminary test is also very advised.


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## Wineaviator

*Where to buy tannins*

This is an extremely useful thread to a newbie wine (kit) maker. I have read the entire thread but have found little information with standard search engines on where exactly to purchase Scott Labs products (or any othe tannin for that matter) is there a website that offers plenty of these that anyone can recommend? Or are we limited to wha the LHBS has on hand.

Thanks in advance.


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## sour_grapes

I have had best luck at locating these tannins at:

Brew and Wine Supply (and Doug is also a sponsor of the forum): http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=tannin

And at Morewinemaking: https://morewinemaking.com/search?search=tannin

Presque Isle Winery (also a sponsor) has some too: http://www.piwine.com/cgi-piwine/sb/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*148c4f20af3d50c710744125


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## BigSell

What is the best way/process to add tannins, I seem to find mine left on the bottom of the carboy when I rack. Do you dilute them in Wine, Water, Vodka or something else? What is the best process?


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## heatherd

BigSell said:


> What is the best way/process to add tannins, I seem to find mine left on the bottom of the carboy when I rack. Do you dilute them in Wine, Water, Vodka or something else? What is the best process?



No dilution. I just drop them in and stir gently. Note that tannins added while the yeast is active have caused wine volcanos for me a couple of times. I do them once the wine is stabilized and during bulk aging.


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## Julie

I add after fermentation, it really helps in the mouthfeel. I will add prior to fermentation if I am making a wine out of something that is low in tannins and will after as well.


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## Vinodawg

Great info. Question - what type of Tannin is LD Carlson Liquid Wine Tannin (e.g. sacrificial, cellaring or finishing)?


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## Rtrent2002

Just want to say thanks to everyone who posts their personal experiences and expertise here. I'm on my 7th kit now and can really tell a difference from my first kit to the one I just bottled using ideas and techniques from the "professionals"

On my last kit, I added tannins in the bulk aging process (very little) and within a week I had much better nose and mouthfeel. (I'm sitting here with a glass now left over from bottling and I can't stop smelling the glass)

I also added both a light toast powder and dark toast chips during bulk aging to develop a more complex flavor profile and you can actually taste/smell slight hints of coconut and vanilla from the powder and richer cocoa and tobacco from the dark roast chips. 

I also pitched a more quality yeast on day one and then pitched the provided EC 1118 on day 3 to ensure a completely dry wine. I was surprised at how fruit forward the right yeast provided. 

Happy camper here. I was almost ready to give up on kits.


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## facn1989

Data overload  I am a new winemaker and only have made kits. I have limited space so I bottle as instructed by the kit manual (usually about 6 weeks from pitching yeast until bottling). For that reason I follow the instructions to the T and add all sorbate and clarifiers.

I would like to add more body to my wines (take into account I make high end kit, which should be better than the cheap kits).

There's too much info here and now I'm confused. Considering I bottle early, what's the best tannin I can use for reds, when should I add it, and how much?

I already read that generic tannins are mostly useless and don't mind paying more for high quality tannins. Just not sure how much benefit I can get if I don't bulk age.

Thanks!


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## sour_grapes

You'll still get all the benefits if you bottle age. (It is possible you will get some sediment, but I don't think the wine will turn out appreciably differently.)

Personally, I use ~7 or 8 g of FT Tannin Rouge in primary for 6 gallon kits, and 2 to 4 g of Tannin Riche Extra in secondary. (I think one or both of these tannins have new names now, but you should be able to easily cross reference them.)


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## fanofbarolo

Pumpkinman said:


> I've seen an increase in tannin usage, but I've haven't seen anyone making any indication that they were using any specific type of tannin, The majority of the posts that I've seen were adding a large amount of tannin pre-fermentation.
> 
> The purpose of adding tannins is to increase the sensory profile of the wine, stabilize the color and add structure and mouthfeel.
> 
> Tannins are listed in 3 different categories and perform very differently depending on which type of tannin you add, and at which stage of the wine making process you add them.
> 
> I put together an article to further explain tannins, the three categories, and what we can expect from them.
> 
> You can read it here:
> 
> Tannins
> 
> or below:
> 
> The purpose of addingtannins is to increase the sensory profile of the wine, stabilize the color andadd structure and mouthfeel.
> Specific types of tannins are meant to be added at specific times in the wine making process, these tannins perform differently, adding different characteristics and helping to protect and smooth out the wine.
> 
> Tannins are divided into 3 categories:
> 
> Sacrificial tannins, Cellaring tannins, and Finishing Tannins:
> 
> 
> *Sacrificial tannins*-They are not meant to add tannin but more to preserve the natural tannin of the grapes.
> These are added to the must early in the wine making process they have a Sacrificial effect, they do not to add anything to the wine, but rather to give themselves up as 'sacrificial tannins'.
> These tannins combine with proteins and other grape components and precipitate out into the lees. Because these particular tannins are available for those reactions, the natural grape tannins are preserved and are able to combine with water soluble pigments to create optimally stable color.
> 
> *Cellaring tannins*- These tannins are added after the first or second racking (after fermentation), they play an important role in the development of wine throughout the aging period in the cellar. They can help protect against oxidation during the storage period, as well as adding subtle differences of flavor and mouthfeel to wines.
> 
> *Finishing Tannins*- These Tannins are usually added anywhere between 3 weeks before bottling up to the day before bottling. They are obviously used later in wine aging to impart character that may be lacking from the grapes or barrel.Finishing tannins derived from quality French oak can impart real nice notes of coconut and vanilla, some even impart a perception of sweetness, to a finished wine (Tannin Riche - My favorite).
> 
> I hardly ever add Sacrificial Tannins, I prefer to add Finishing and Cellaring tannins, for the flavors and mouth feel that they can impart, but also their antioxidant properties. I've added Finishing tannins such as Tannin Riche, it adds the perception of sweetness (slightly, but enough to balance out some acidity),with a very pleasant, light oak and astringency, Cellaring and Finishing tannins can smooth a wines finish.
> 
> Before adding tannins to your must or wine, figure out what you want to accomplish with your tannin addition, make sure that the type of tannin you have is suitable for the job.
> 
> Tannins are another great tool in our wine making toolbox to help us make better wine, but like any addition, we need to understand what we are adding, and why we are adding it instead of adding it blindly.
> 
> Tom


I am making blueberry wine. A batch 23 liters. How much should I use and which one and when?


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## clusterbuster75

I grow all my own fruit(10 acres of grapes) and only use "SACRIFICIAL" tannins. Only way I've ever made a living, over 20 yrs experience, but hey that's just my opinion. Do it right from the start, don't fix it later....


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