# Grape Trellis



## NorthernWinos (Feb 9, 2006)

Wanted to post some photos of our trellis system...ours is a very common way to tie up the vines, and....might look a bit 'over-built' or 'heavy- duty', but we haven't had any problems with any sagging of the wires or jacking-up of the end posts.

The end posts were braced well to prevent the end post from moving or lifting out of the ground from the wires pulling from the weight of the vines on them.






Once the vines start to grow it's nice to have a post to tie them to, that way you can get the vine growing upward at a young age.....even tied to a temporary post will get the vine started so the tendrils can grab onto the wires.





There is an awful lot of weight on those wires once the vines mature.Not only the weight of the woody vines and leaves, but hopefully the weight of the fruit.
We used a double strand twisted wire, like a 'barb wire' without the barbs...it will not stretch or sag.





Hope this helps anyone who wants to build a strudy trellis system with no faults in the future....better to be 'over-built' than to have your vines and fruits sagging onto the ground.


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## Waldo (Feb 9, 2006)

So how many gallons of wine do you get from your vineyard Wino? What varietal of grape are you growing?


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## jobe05 (Feb 9, 2006)

Very nice vines NW, makes me jealous



I wish I had more land to do something like that. I like your planning ahead, Good Job









What are the berry bushes behing the grape vines in one of the pictures....... Blackberries? ......... Rasberries?......


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 9, 2006)

Thanks Guys....mostly what I wanted to stress with these photos is to build your trelliss strong and tough...It is amazing how heavy those vines get when they are loaded with leaves and an extra canopy of excess leaves, plus the weight of the fruit.....build your trellis heavy duty.
Those vines are Beta and Valiant...a super hardy juice grape. We are not into jam and jelly, [except for Jalapeño jelly] so I make breakfast juice with those particular grapes. Got 70 quarts of breakfast juice last year, so easy with the steam juicer....they taste just like Concord.
However.....today I mixed up a Welch's Concord wine [being as the last batch was a hit] and to today's batch I added some of my juice, just to see how it tastes.
I have planted some wine grapes too...all kinds...only hardy ones...one or 2 of Edelweiss, Swenson Red, Kay Gray, King of the North, Frontenac, and last year some Louise Swenson and Baltic Amber...think thats all of them..?...anyway, in the photos, they are under the snow....I grow them on a 8 foot wide X 40 inch tall wire panel that is tied to a post, in the fall I lay the panel down and cover with straw and usually a nice dependable layer of snow...It is a test to see how they grow and produce and then the good ones will be propagated.Some of the above mentioned ones will be hardy enough to hang on the trellis, but till they get a few years growth I am babying them.
The canes out there are Raspberries, summer and fall varieties. Raspberries are very easy to grow, I think they might grow all over the country....not sure tho.I am looking at some red/black hybrids, should be fun to try.I also have strawberries, Juneberries, rhubarb and other stuff out there under the snow...if it has any chance of surviving here, I'll give it a try. As well we have apple, crabapple, newly planted hardy pear, cherry and some plums, so time will tell....love to make my own breakfast juices, and now of course WINE


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## bilbo-in-maine (Feb 9, 2006)

NW - have you had to contend with any diseases, pests or animal predators 
bothering the grapes? If so, do you use sprays or bird netting and other 
solutions to drive off the critters? Your training system looks like the Four 
Arm Kniffen system - have you trained all your varieties the same way? 

Sorry for all the questions - I am impressed and very curious.

Bill


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 9, 2006)

bilbo-in-maine said:


> NW - have you had to contend with any diseases, pests or animal predators
> bothering the grapes? If so, do you use sprays or bird netting and other
> solutions to drive off the critters? Your training system looks like the Four
> Arm Kniffen system - have you trained all your varieties the same way?
> ...


The Beta are disease free...



The Valiants are a problem, but have some Bordeaux [Bordo copper] spray to try, seem sanitation helps...keep the soil free of the diseased 'mummies' and dead leaves...and work the soil under the vine. The other new varieties are suppose to be disease free, or near disease free....it limits your choice of varieties, but think it might be a better choice in the long run.
With the 'tender' wine grapes that I am attempting to grow.... I am growing in a fan pattern on the wire panel, no stiff trunk to try to bend over in the fall. So will let new vines grow from the base as the older ones get stiff and hard, so hope to let young supple vines grow up each year.
The hardy wine grapes I will try to train in the 4 arm system like my 'old-timers'. 
Birds....Last year the Cedar Waxwings ate all the Mountain Ash berries and didn't leave, they hung around and started to work over the fall raspberries and grapes, I threw some bird netting over the plants...worked great, but 'un-handy' to harvest.
Critters.....had some bunny damage to the young vines....[the bunnies suffered some 'lead' damage]....they are sneaky...have some bunny traps out there too...as well as 3 dogs....the deer haven't bothered the vines and canes, but love fruit trees. Think deer will eat anything you cherish. We are very rural, lots of critters to deal with, even black bears and occasional moose, don't have to beat the wolves from the door, but hear them howl.
I also have learned [the hard way] even with these very hardy grapes that it is best to also have a young vine trained at all times to replace the old gnarled trunk...some of my old trunks split last winter from the freezing/thawing in the spring...as tough as they are....some of them died to the roots...new plants came, but will take 2 or 3 years to grow back.....
So...If you live in a cold area ....always let some young shoots grow up along with your main trunk, just as a future replacement. In the book Northern Wineworks he mentions that too.http://www.northernwinework.com/buy.htmlA good book for northern growers.Southern growers probably have other problems to deal with.
Grapes are fun to grow, but you do need some space, full sun, good drainage, good air circulation and time.





BTW...I got 10 gallons of Raspberry/Apple Wine and 6 gallons of Raspberry/Red Grape Wine off of those Raspberry plants in the photo.....planted another row of Raspberries last summer from suckers that continually grow from the bases of the plants....Raspberries make delicious wine!!!! Try making some!!! It screams "Gimmie Chocolate!!!"



*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 9, 2006)

Don't be intimidated about growing fruit...just try it...learn by trial and error, or by luck...just try, you might surprise yourself!!!!


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## Bert (Feb 9, 2006)

Man that looks great....you said we should get togather sometime...PWP and I would love to see your vines and stuff growing....hope we can make it happen....looks great.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Feb 10, 2006)

Thanks for the rundown NW. I'm currently clearing some trees on the 
ridge up above the house in preparation for a small vineyard. Soil test 
underway, a load of manure on order, and some vines ordered. Like you, I 
am limited to the cold-hardy hybrid varieties. I will put in around 25 
plants consisting of Frontenac (and F. Gris), Landal Noir, Marechal-Foch, 
St. Croix and St. Pepin. Four reds and two whites. I'm finding it difficult to 
wait for the end of mud season and planting time in May and June.

Seeing your plants and trellises is great. Thanks again for putting them 
up!

Bill


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 10, 2006)

Sounds like a winner....stuff is visible in spring and summer...we can hoist a few....


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## jobe05 (Feb 11, 2006)

NW:


I have rasberries growing, Latham and Heritage. Everything I have ever read about these varieties say to cut them back in the fall, which I have done for the past 3 years. Although production is picking up, I still don't get but a few handfulls of fruit each year. 


question #1: Should I not cut them back and just let them go?


question #2: A friend of mine suggested I get cow manuer this year and lay about a 6 inch layer throughout the plants for fertilization. I have always used 10-10-10, but still no production.... Thoughts?


Q #3 - I have never propogated these with any great success, (or effort... my fault) but they seem to naturally spread through the root system, which cause a patch of rasberries Versus rows of rasberries if I could propogate. What would you suggest to propogate these plants.


Last year, I cut down about 50% of the plants, and left the remainder stand tall, hoping I might see a difference.......


Any help would be appreciated.


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## MedPretzel (Feb 11, 2006)

I'm no great gardener, but to question #2: I would. My sister uses horse manure for fertilizing everything, and it works great. If my stuff grows an inch a year, her's grows a foot.


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 11, 2006)

jobe05 said:


> NW:
> 
> 
> I have rasberries growing, Latham and Heritage.  Everything I have ever read about these varieties say to cut them back in the fall, which I have done for the past 3 years.  Although production is picking up, I still don't get but a few handfulls of fruit each year.
> ...




Raspberries are very easy to grow, but require pruning and maintenance. Staking the plants make for easier picking. 

If possible grow your raspberries in a row, where you can contain the plants and prevent them from becoming an overgrown bramble. If you have the row where you can run a lawn mower down each side you will be able to contain the suckers from spreading.

I think your Latham Raspberry is a summer bearing plant and your Heritage is a fall bearing plant....

Do you know which variety is planted in the row???

The Lathams will produce on last years canes.....so when you cut them down in the fall....you destroy next years crop...So, this variety you will have to do selective pruning.

Once they are established and have a good set of year old canes, leave them alone in the first fall. By the following summer the year old canes will be producing and a new set of canes will have grown up. In the fall of that year, prune out all the old canes that had just produced.Also prune out any thin and stray canes that are growing out into the row. 

The Heritage Raspberries are fall bearing plants, those 'they' say will produce on 'new wood' [this years growth] So, technically...those you can mow down in the fall and a new crop of canes will appear in the spring and produce that fall...that's what 'they' say.

When we moved to this place in 1999 I brought along some plants from our old place and planted them....they are summer bearing plants that I had gotten form an old neighbor...variety unknown...they are reliable disease free producers.

The lady who lived here proudly showed us her fall bearing patch of Redwing Raspberries. A fall producing variety that she said you just mow down in the fall....I transplanted them and made a nice long row...the answer to all that pruning...? Yes, we did cut them off in the fall, and by the following fall there was a great crop of berries out there...BUT...the growing season is so short here that they would begin to ripen in October and by November would be frozen [ice-wine...? maybe] After a few years of watching a crop be wasted every fall...I may be pulling this row out......The year before I let the plants alone in the fall and last summer I got a summer crop off the old canes, the new spring canes grew and did produce well in the fall...we had a late fall and I got a good amount of fruit...but some of them were lost to winter....I pruned out all the oldest canes and treated the Redwing [fall bearing] variety like the summer bearing crop......So, I still might pull out that row of berries...fall producers maybe not the answer to this climate...

So, depending where you live, a fall bearing variety, might be good for you. The canes you left alone last fall will probably produce well for you this summer.

The pruning thing you will learn over time...Having a narrow row of berries is a great help for pruning out the old canes, then run the lawn mower down each side and contain your row to a narrow row. Makes for easier picking too.If possible try to tie the canes up or together. We put posts down each side of one of the rows and have a couple wires, during the summer just train the canes to be inside the wires and cut off all the sucker plants outside the 'fence'.

The manure will greatly help in production, a good 6 inch mulch each year or so. Keeping the weeds down is a chore too.When we moved here we quit raising livestock...the only thing I miss is the manure, but the neighbors are generous....also I have learned to have a couple compost piles going at all times...compost is black gold, usually weed free.

To propagate another row...kill all grass and weeds in that area, work the soil deep and amend with manure. Dig out some of your suckering plants and put 3 or so plants in each hole about 18"-24" apart down the row. As they grow up tie the canes together with twine or put a wire 'fence' down each side of the row...make for easier picking if the row is kept narrow.

Hope this helps you grow some luscious red raspberries...The wine is Devinne, beautiful color, very dry....goes way too well with chocolate.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Feb 11, 2006)

Good to use manure, but avoid horse manure since it will also give you lots 
of weeds from embedded seeds. Cow manure much less troublesome.


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## Curt (Feb 11, 2006)

And sheep manure is the ultimate as they grind all the weed seeds up as they chew.


Northern,


Where are you again? The pictures sure look like Minn. in the winter. We're just a few miles south of Bemidji.


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 12, 2006)

45 miles North West of BJI...in Trail...pop 62


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## jobe05 (Feb 12, 2006)

Northern Winos said:


> 45 miles North West of BJI...in Trail...pop 62







WOW........





And I thought southerners gave funny directions


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 12, 2006)

Here is a photo of the Raspberry 'fence'...





It's not much of a fence, just 2 wires on each side of the row and a few metal posts.. helps to keep the heavy canes from drooping out into the rows...it makes picking so much easier...also gives you an area to contain the aggressive canes...just remove of mow off any plants that grow outside of the row. 
*[The tin cans on top of the posts are for when there is bird netting over the row...keeps the netting from tearing on the posts]
You'll notice another half row at the other end of the garden, it is a different variety of Raspberries...DON'T plant different varieties this close together....they send out suckers [new plants] as far away as the other row.....they become co-mingled...DO AS I SAY...NOT AS I DO.This was a learning mistake...one of these rows will be removed over time.
Raspberries are very aggressive-invasive growers, but with a little effort they can be contained and will reward you with luscious red berries. A very easy crop to grow...with some maintenance. Well rotted manure is a good fertilizer......mulching between the rows will conserve moisture...
Chemical weed control can be done with Simazine [Princep] and other products..read labels. DO NOT spray RoundUp near the plants...there might be a small suckering plant nearby....and if you touch it with RoundUp it will follow the roots to the main plant.




Don't be intimidated about growing stuff...even in a small yard you can grow many things.


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 12, 2006)

jobe05 said:


> Northern Winos said:
> 
> 
> > 45 miles North West of BJI...in Trail...pop 62
> ...



Did that sound 'funny....okay...45 miles North West of Bemidji.. [BJI is the airport] in a small hamlet called Trail.....Population 62....
[Sat & Sun night population 262...there is a Tavern in the town] 
We've been told that the population never changes much...every time a woman gets pregnant and man leaves town....I think that's a joke...?*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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## PolishWineP (Feb 12, 2006)

I knew what she said!



Oh! Wait! That's because I live here! Ooops! But she didn't mention anything about how the crow flies or how far she is from the Buchanan place, so I'm sure those were Yankee directions!



I suggest that everyone on the forum who lives within 150 miles of Bemidji get together some weekend evening for dinner and wines.


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 12, 2006)

Sounds great!!! We'll code the directions to the event...


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## Curt (Feb 13, 2006)

Now that will be cool! Faces and voices to put to the posts!


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