# Plans for 2020?



## NorCal (Feb 2, 2020)

I’m thinking a barrel fermented Chardonnay. I have a line on a neutral 60 gallon French oak barrel, used for whites and I have a source for grapes, although I’d like to get a better one.

I need to cut back on my red production, but I have a wonderful barrel I don’t want to retire, maybe a Mourvèdre?

What are your plans?


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## sour_grapes (Feb 2, 2020)

NorCal said:


> I’m thinking a barrel fermented Chardonnay. I have a line on a *neutral* 60 gallon French oak barrel,



Isn't the whole point of barrel-fermenting Chardonnay is to give it some oak? If not, what does barrel-fermenting bring to the party? (Honest question.)


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## NorCal (Feb 2, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Isn't the whole point of barrel-fermenting Chardonnay is to give it some oak? If not, what does barrel-fermenting bring to the party? (Honest question.)


Valid question. The issue is a new barrel would give too much oak, it’s easier to add staves than to have to take the wine out after a short duration. Most winemakers I talk to like around 25% new oak on their whites.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 2, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Valid question. The issue is a new barrel would give too much oak, it’s easier to add staves than to have to take the wine out after a short duration. Most winemakers I talk to like around 25% new oak on their whites.



Interesting. Granted, it was a kit, but I barrel fermented a Chardonnay a while back - brand new barrel. Since the wine was only in there for about a week, no issues with overdoing the oak. But I imagine you'd be doing a cool ferment that might last weeks.


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## stickman (Feb 2, 2020)

I don't have any experience with barrel fermentation of Chardonnay, but I've heard winemakers say that barrel fermentation, even in a neutral barrel, will add mid-palate texture.


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## NorCal (Mar 8, 2020)

It’s been a month and the plans have already changed. Looking to do 15-20 gallons of Viognier and a barrel of red. My plan right now is to do a barrel of Merlot. 

I reached an agreement with a local vineyard owner; let me care for a row and I’ll buy all the fruit. They agreed. The Merlot barrel will have Cab Franc and Petit Verdot, maybe Cabernet Sauvignon if I can swap some grapes with @4score.


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## Johnd (Mar 8, 2020)

So the total plan for @NorCal is 80 gallons? 20 of Viogner and a 60 gallon barrel. That’s your number and you’re sticking to it?


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## mainshipfred (Mar 8, 2020)

I've learned to take @NorCal 's beginning plans with a grain of salt. He'll be doing twice that much before the season is over.


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## NorCal (Mar 8, 2020)

Johnd said:


> So the total plan for @NorCal is 80 gallons? 20 of Viogner and a 60 gallon barrel. That’s your number and you’re sticking to it?


That is the plan and I’m really liking blends and I’ve committed to the vineyard owner to take a row of Merlot fruit, so this year’s plans are firming up.

The single barrel plus some white was my plan this year on my Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sauv, Petit Verdot 60 gallon blend. But, you never want to be short, so I ended up with 5 extra carboys of over-runs, which I’ll throw all together and make 10 cases of a 50%/48%/ 2% CF/Merlot/PV blend.


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## Johnd (Mar 8, 2020)

NorCal said:


> That is the plan and I’m really liking blends and I’ve committed to the vineyard owner to take a row of Merlot fruit, so this year’s plans are firming up.
> 
> The single barrel plus some white was my plan this year on my Cab Franc, Merlot, Cab Sauv, Petit Verdot 60 gallon blend. But, you never want to be short, so I ended up with 5 extra carboys of over-runs, which I’ll throw all together and make 10 cases of a 50%/48%/ 2% CF/Merlot/PV blend.



Sounds like a solid plan. The “don’t want to run short” part always makes me overshoot, especially since my formula for how many pounds I need is already a bit liberal. Filled a new 60 this past season, plus a neutral 30, three carboys left over. Excess wine is comforting......


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## winemaker81 (Apr 12, 2020)

Current plans? Last fall I connected with a group that makes a bulk purchase of West Coast grapes. My current intention for this fall is 15+ gallons each of Sangiovese and Tempranillo. This depends on which varieties are available during our shipment window, so things may vary, or when I see the fall's list I may change my mind. My thought is 8 lugs of each, although I may swap out 2 lugs in each batch for complementary varieties.

One alternate is 6 lugs of Merlot, 1 Cabernet Sauvignon, and 1 of another Bordeaux grape. So many ideas, too little space ...

Regardless, I'll do a second run on each -- I'm very pleased with the current Malbec/Merlot/Zinfandel blend.

In December I purchased a 10 yo neutral barrel. The couple I purchased it from have another they want to sell. If thinks work out I'll buy that one as well.

A big advantage of a neutral barrel is I add whatever oak cubes I want, including mixing varieties. I'm not limited to the barrel itself.


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## Dennis Griffith (Apr 13, 2020)

I've always thought that barrels also help to 'concentrate' the flavor of the wine (in addition to tannins). Am I wrong in my assumption?


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## mainshipfred (Apr 13, 2020)

Dennis Griffith said:


> I've always thought that barrels also help to 'concentrate' the flavor of the wine (in addition to tannins). Am I wrong in my assumption?



It absolutely does concentrate the wine due to micro-oxygenation. However older barrels loose their ability to give off tannins as well as oak. So depending on the style one is going for tannins will also need to be added with the oak alternates.


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## Adam Beck (Apr 13, 2020)

I’m trying to get a type 02 license so I can work out of this shared winemaking space near me. It’s been slow to get going due to the Coronavirus, though. I have a connection for 1/2 ton of Carignane, I was planning to do 1/4 ton as a semi-carbonic red, and 1/4 as a rosé, then make a piquette from the leftover must. Right now I’m thinking I’ll get a couple of flextanks to age the wines, but I’m still not dead set on that. While 1/2 ton isn’t a huge amount of grapes it’s a huge step up for me, so I’m still trying to wrap my head around all the logistics and things I’ll need.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 13, 2020)

My understanding of barrel aging is the evaporation of water/alcohol in the wine concentrates the remaining constituents in addition to micro-oxygenation.

Regarding fermentation in a neutral barrel and using an oak addition (staves, spirals, cubes, chips, etc.) -- is there an advantage to this over fermenting in plastic or stainless steel with added oak products?


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## cmason1957 (Apr 13, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> My understanding of barrel aging is the evaporation of water/alcohol in the wine concentrates the remaining constituents in addition to micro-oxygenation.
> 
> Regarding fermentation in a neutral barrel and using an oak addition (staves, spirals, cubes, chips, etc.) -- is there an advantage to this over fermenting in plastic or stainless steel with added oak products?



The Micro-Oxygenation and the evaporation/concentration doesn't happen in stainless or plastic. From what I understand it can happen in FlexTanks. Daniel Pambianchi (and I should probably look his name up so as to type it correctly) is doing a controlled long-term study on the differences between a barrel and flextanks and so far he has seen very little difference.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 13, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> The Micro-Oxygenation and the evaporation/concentration doesn't happen in stainless or plastic. From what I understand it can happen in FlexTanks. Daniel Pambianchi (and I should probably look his name up so as to type it correctly) is doing a controlled long-term study on the differences between a barrel and flextanks and so far he has seen very little difference.



I can't remember what it was but I think there was some flaw with his latest results.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 13, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I can't remember what it was but I think there was some flaw with his latest results.



It had something to do with the seal of the lid on the flextank. If I understood correctly, you need to tighten it more than just finger tight or something like that, it was a minor difference in dissolved oxygen 25 µg DO/L more in the FlexTank than the barrel. I don't quite understand why or what dissolved oxygen is and why it makes a difference, so ....


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## winemaker81 (Apr 13, 2020)

I didn't know that flextanks have a similar effect to barrels. Good to know.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 13, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> It had something to do with the seal of the lid on the flextank. If I understood correctly, you need to tighten it more than just finger tight or something like that, it was a minor difference in dissolved oxygen 25 µg DO/L more in the FlexTank than the barrel. I don't quite understand why or what dissolved oxygen is and why it makes a difference, so ....



I believe if a wine has too much DO, especially prior to bottling, since it reacts with the free SO2 reducing the the concentration. To what degree I don't know and for some reason whites are supposed to have less DO than reds. It could be that the tannins in reds are anti oxidants. But then again I could be wrong. I do sparge my wines with Argon prior to bottling but reading a recent post it appears it may strip the wine of aromatic qualities so I have to look into it a little deeper. However and again no proof but since most of us vacuum rack and bottle I would think our DO levels are lower than wines that are pumped to transfer.


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## Paolo_pin (Apr 14, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Isn't the whole point of barrel-fermenting Chardonnay is to give it some oak? If not, what does barrel-fermenting bring to the party? (Honest question.)


Basically you are right, but lately, starting since not-toasted oak barrels, we can expect also a great increase in polysaccharides and tannins (increase structure, mildness, sweetness) and, even more, a totally new set of fruits (coconunt/apricot from whiskey lactone) and flowers (acacia like ).


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## Paolo_pin (Apr 14, 2020)

Dennis Griffith said:


> I've always thought that barrels also help to 'concentrate' the flavor of the wine (in addition to tannins). Am I wrong in my assumption?



I am sorry but yes, you are wrong.

The truth is that barrels increase wine concentration because alcohol/water evaporation (and thus, refilling), also wood release tannins and polysaccharides, but it does not mean that we have an increase in flavors! What will happen is a "change" in flavors, because oxydation, sometimes MLF, and tertiary compounds coming from chemical reactions and wood flavor releasing. So it is not a concentration but a change. Primary and even more, secondary flavors are going to disappear, even for a slow rate. Primiary aromas will subdue to changes depending by their chemical form (thiols for first, then terpenes will change in some months, finally isoprenoids look more stable).


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## Paolo_pin (Apr 14, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> It absolutely does concentrate the wine due to micro-oxygenation. However older barrels loose their ability to give off tannins as well as oak. So depending on the style one is going for tannins will also need to be added with the oak alternates.



Micro-oxygenation can help concentrate a red wine because it helps reactions among anthocyanes and tannins via acetaldehyde bonds. We can not speak of a real concentration per se, basically we must speak about a "preservation" of polyphenolic wine potential. Apparently, it does not help to concentrate a white wine, since no good reactions are expected by easy-to-be-oxydized leucoanthocyanes, catechins and even oak tannins are not going to subdue to any good oxydative reaction. Micro-oxygenation can help to preserve fruitiness (preventing reductive off-flavors).


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## sour_grapes (Apr 14, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> Isn't the whole point of barrel-fermenting Chardonnay is to give it some oak? If not, what does barrel-fermenting bring to the party? (Honest question.)





Paolo_pin said:


> Basically you are right, but lately, starting since not-toasted oak barrels, we can expect also a great increase in polysaccharides and tannins (increase structure, mildness, sweetness) and, even more, a totally new set of fruits (coconunt/apricot from whiskey lactone) and flowers (acacia like ).



Is that true even for neutral barrels, as the OP was asking about and I was responding to?


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## Paolo_pin (Apr 14, 2020)

Yes, i agree with you indeed. I just wanted to add something to your good answer. If you get a toasted barrel and it got "neutral", then we miss the main point of it!
If they are "old barrels", than the aroma releasing will be very small. Also, micro-oxygenation will be less than the original, since little pores of the wood are already filled by wine. Also, we must keep in mind that wood not only releases aromas but also absorb them (thiols and terpenes). The fraction of absorbed aromas by the wood can be released further to a new wine entering the same barrel. Thus, we can speak about "wine aroma contamination".


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## winemaker81 (Apr 14, 2020)

Paolo_pin said:


> The truth is that barrels increase wine concentration because alcohol/water evaporation (and thus, refilling), also wood release tannins and polysaccharides, but it does not mean that we have an increase in flavors!


We have evaporation of alcohol and water through the barrel, leaving behind all other constituents. This has to produce a higher concentration of those constituents, e.g., color, flavor, and aroma. My 54 liter barrel gives up 0.5 liters/month, so at the end of a year, the original wine is at 90% of its original volume. Since I'm refilling the lost volume each month the final change in concentration is not an additional 10% (9%?), but the increased concentration should have some perceptible effect.

Is there another factor I'm leaving out?


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## Paolo_pin (Apr 15, 2020)

Yes, this is exactly what happens in barrels, but sadly we can not talk about an increasing in wine aromas in a simply way. First, even if everything else is concentrating, aromas are going to get partially lost for some reasons. One reason is wood absorption, so aromas are bond to the wood matrix, being the thiols the more susceptible of this phenomenon. Another reason is slight oxidation, where therpenes are also involved pretty well. Second, we should discuss about aroma's coverage, since wood will release its own flavors, covering the original wine aromas. Even polysaccharides coming out from wood can bind aromas, reducing their volatility and perception. Again, MLF can change drastically aromas in wine pattern, and it usually happens during barrel ageing. So if you talk about a overall concentration in aromas (sum of volatile compounds whatever the origin) the answer is yes, but if you talk about a "original wine aromas concentration", the answer, to me, it is not.


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## Johnd (Apr 15, 2020)

When I speak of concentration in a barrel, I’m referring to the flavors, not the aroma. If you’re saying that the aromatics don’t necessarily come together in that way, due to the factors you mention, I buy that, post barrel aromas are very different, in a good way IMHO.

Do you disagree that wine becomes more concentrated in flavor during barrel aging?


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 15, 2020)

you can accomplish micro-oxidation in LDPE, ie a lot of the commercial food jugs


cmason1957 said:


> Micro-Oxygenation and the evaporation/concentration . . . From what I understand it can happen in FlexTanks.




A flex tank is HDPE. This has a measurable oxygen transmission rate but is significantly less than LDPE as the above test. Food containers are good barriers for water so you don’t have concentration/ the angels share.


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## Ignoble Grape (Apr 16, 2020)

Adam Beck said:


> I’m trying to get a type 02 license so I can work out of this shared winemaking space near me. It’s been slow to get going due to the Coronavirus, though. I have a connection for 1/2 ton of Carignane, I was planning to do 1/4 ton as a semi-carbonic red, and 1/4 as a rosé, then make a piquette from the leftover must. Right now I’m thinking I’ll get a couple of flextanks to age the wines, but I’m still not dead set on that. While 1/2 ton isn’t a huge amount of grapes it’s a huge step up for me, so I’m still trying to wrap my head around all the logistics and things I’ll need.



@Adam Beck Where are you located in CA? Assume that the goal is going commercial? I'd be really interested in learning about your process and how you're navigating licensing.


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## PSlattery (Apr 17, 2020)

I’m planning on doing (12) 18lbs crates Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon and wanted to split it into two small batches and use D80 for one batch and D254 for the second batch and use CH16 malo after combining after primary fermentation. I also have 2 buckets of South African Cabernet one South African Select and one Mosti South African Fresco. I was told the Fresco was premium compared to the select. I was going to split the Mosti into two small batches and ferment on the skins from the D80 and D254 from the pressed grapes. A question I have is should I run some juice off the grapes that I’m crushing and add it to the pail of South African fresco and if so how much should I run off?


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## mainshipfred (Apr 17, 2020)

PSlattery said:


> I’m planning on doing (12) 18lbs crates Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon and wanted to split it into two small batches and use D80 for one batch and D254 for the second batch and use CH16 malo after combining after primary fermentation. I also have 2 buckets of South African Cabernet one South African Select and one Mosti South African Fresco. I was told the Fresco was premium compared to the select. I was going to split the Mosti into two small batches and ferment on the skins from the D80 and D254 from the pressed grapes. A question I have is should I run some juice off the grapes that I’m crushing and add it to the pail of South African fresco and if so how much should I run off?



That's a thought but I think most would add the skins to the buckets after the grapes are pressed. You'd probably have to have a way to keep the juice frozen though.


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## PSlattery (Apr 17, 2020)

I have enough room to keep one pail frozen if not close to frozen and was going to use all of the skins on one pail but was going to put 3 gal of juice on the D80 skins and 3 gal on the D254 skins.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 17, 2020)

This is just me so take it for what it's worth. I have never had a juice bucket that turned out as good as all grape. I would ferment them separately and if you wanted to blend, blend them after they are finished. Again that's just me.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 18, 2020)

Just got word the S. Africans arrived at Gino Pinto's. Picking them up tomorrow. Originally ordered 8 half lugs each of Cab and Syrah from Stellenbasch but added an extra of each. Hoping the 2020 Cab turns out as good as the 2018. So far the 2019 isn't impressing me. This will be the first time trying S. African Syrah. On second thought I hope they were talking about grapes.


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## Adam Beck (Apr 19, 2020)

Ignoble Grape said:


> @Adam Beck Where are you located in CA? Assume that the goal is going commercial? I'd be really interested in learning about your process and how you're navigating licensing.



I'm in Oakland. I have a couple goals... The main thing is I just want to make wine in a larger capacity than the 3 gallons I can do in my apartment. Second is that I want to be able to get access to better grapes and have more control over what grapes I get, and I have found you can't do that unless you're working in larger quantities than I can do in my apartment. Third is that once I start making more than 15 bottles at a time, I'll need to sell them since I can't really see myself drinking a commercial quantity of wine by myself, lol. So yeah, getting licensed to get to accomplish those three. Not really planning on making a profit off the bat - even if I sell out I doubt I'll make much when I'm just buying a half ton of grapes this year. But if this all goes well maybe in a couple years I'll be working at higher volumes.

I'm going to be renting a space that allows an alternating proprietorship type of deal if you have an 02 winegrowers license. I get the space and am allowed to use some gear (crusher, press, bottling, that sort of thing), but you need your own fermenters and storage vessels. Prior to the coronavirus I was helping out a winemaker that works out of the same space once a week on Saturdays.

So I just got all of the 02 license application together and emailed it to the ABC to look over. If it's all kosher then I'll sign it all, pay the fees, and send it to them in the mail. Next is to register with TTB, which I haven't started yet.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 20, 2020)

Yesterday all my troubles seemed so far away. My son and I crushed the S. African Cab and Shiraz and split each into 4 separate batches of 4.5 to 5 gallons, sorry no pics. He did the crushing while I was preparing the enzymes and sulfur. When we were done we put lids on the buckets and hosed off the outsides. It was late and we didn't notice but we also washed off some of the tape labeling the buckets. This morning when I went to take the brix and pH there were 3 buckets not marked, crap! Luckly, there was enough of a difference in the SG and pH to identify the buckets. The pH of the Cab was 3.72 to 3.75 with an SG of around 1.094. The Shiraz was more like 3.84 to 3.90 and SG closer to 1.100. I'm going to take the average of each and make the adjustment based on that number. I'll adjust the acid on both but only chaptalize the Cab.


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## jsbeckton (Apr 21, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Yesterday all my troubles seemed so far away. My son and I crushed the S. African Cab and Shiraz and split each into 4 separate batches of 4.5 to 5 gallons, sorry no pics. He did the crushing while I was preparing the enzymes and sulfur. When we were done we put lids on the buckets and hosed off the outsides. It was late and we didn't notice but we also washed off some of the tape labeling the buckets. This morning when I went to take the brix and pH there were 3 buckets not marked, crap! Luckly, there was enough of a difference in the SG and pH to identify the buckets. The pH of the Cab was 3.72 to 3.75 with an SG of around 1.094. The Shiraz was more like 3.84 to 3.90 and SG closer to 1.100. I'm going to take the average of each and make the adjustment based on that number. I'll adjust the acid on both but only chaptalize the Cab.


Any cold soak or just doing 24hrs with the enzymes? I think I’m going to try a 5 day cold soak at 50-55 when my Chilean grapes come in May.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 22, 2020)

jsbeckton said:


> Any cold soak or just doing 24hrs with the enzymes? I think I’m going to try a 5 day cold soak at 50-55 when my Chilean grapes come in May.



No cold soak, but due to a timing issue I didn't make the sugar and acid additions until last night about 48 hours after crush and enzymes. Have a small cap this morning.


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## CDrew (Apr 22, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> No cold soak, but due to a timing issue I didn't make the sugar and acid additions until last night about 48 hours after crush and enzymes. Have a small cap this morning.



What acid corrections did you make? Were you shooting for a specific TA number or a pH target? I've done both, and definitely a TA number is much easier and more exact than pH. Good luck with this one, it should be nice.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 23, 2020)

CDrew said:


> What acid corrections did you make? Were you shooting for a specific TA number or a pH target? I've done both, and definitely a TA number is much easier and more exact than pH. Good luck with this one, it should be nice.



I was shooting for 3.65 pH. Added 1g/l in the Cab and 2g/l in the Shiraz. I normally do a half or 3/4 dose but this time I did the full dose. Cab is around 3.57 and the Shiraz came to 3.62, both readings were taken a few hours after the addition so it may be different now. I brought the SG of the Cab up to around 1.100 with a lb of sugar in each bucket. 
Yeasts:
Shiraz - D254, D80, CLOS, Syrah
Cab - D254, D80, BDX, MT
I was going to use your Avante but forgot about it.


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## CDrew (Apr 23, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I was shooting for 3.65 pH. Added 1g/l in the Cab and 2g/l in the Shiraz. I normally do a half or 3/4 dose but this time I did the full dose. Cab is around 3.57 and the Shiraz came to 3.62, both readings were taken a few hours after the addition so it may be different now. I brought the SG of the Cab up to around 1.100 with a lb of sugar in each bucket.
> Yeasts:
> Shiraz - D254, D80, CLOS, Syrah
> Cab - D254, D80, BDX, MT
> I was going to use your Avante but forgot about it.




Ha-Hopefully you can use it this fall. I don't know how you keep so many separate ferments separate. Do you sterilize the punch down tool between each combo to avoid mixing up the yeasts?

I've corrected 2 wines for TA/pH POST fermentation and it did not hurt the wine like I feared. It definitely improved the Rose which was light on Acid and significantly improved the Tempranillo which was fairly low acid to start with. It's making me wonder if correction before fermentation is absolutely necessary. (Though I fully plan pre-ferment correction in fall 2020).


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## mainshipfred (Apr 24, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Ha-Hopefully you can use it this fall. I don't know how you keep so many separate ferments separate. Do you sterilize the punch down tool between each combo to avoid mixing up the yeasts?
> 
> I've corrected 2 wines for TA/pH POST fermentation and it did not hurt the wine like I feared. It definitely improved the Rose which was light on Acid and significantly improved the Tempranillo which was fairly low acid to start with. It's making me wonder if correction before fermentation is absolutely necessary. (Though I fully plan pre-ferment correction in fall 2020).



I figure the small culture left on the masher won't amount to enough to take over the batch. Religiously started doing pre ferment adjustments in the fall of 2018 when I started doing only all grape wines, although the fall of 2019 I was probably a little lax. If acid levels were close I let them go since at one time there were 20+ fermenters going. That was way too many so this year I'll be doing larger batches and less varietals.


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## NorCal (Apr 24, 2020)

I’m also thinking of doing a carboy or two field blend this year. I have Cab Franc, Petite Sirah, Mourvedre, Petit Verdot at my disposal.

In the past I’ve added a little PS and PV to my Cab Franc. Last year I made a couple carboys of PS/PV, but it’s going to take a few years for it come around to be drinkable. 

I’m thinking of a Mourvedre / PV blend, but I don’t think those are common blending partners. Any combos you see that would work?


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## sour_grapes (Apr 24, 2020)

I realize that Syrah and Petite Sirah are not at all the same grape. Still, I would be influenced by the commonality of Syrah/Mourvedre blends (okay, okay, usually with Grenache/Garnacha) to try a PS/Mourvedre blend.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 24, 2020)

9 ways to skin a cat! And that’s the beauty of this hobby. I’ll still be goin for broke with acid additions to the must if needed —- 3.6 or bust! No more games!
Minor tweaks later aren’t so bad, although Id still prefer to avoid them. It’s just a pain with the bench trials, second guessing myself, and easily under or overshooting. And if it’s a large addition needed I 100% feel more comfortable allowing the magic of AF & MLF to take place with my adjustment already priced in - so that when complete & stable there’s no more messing with the chemistry & all ready to age gracefully. 
I have absolutely no science to back this up — but it just ‘feels’ like the wine is more forgiving this way, with a full band rockin n rollin alongside. Post AF adjustments have no backup singers. All alone. So if you miss a note- everyone hears it! Lol
Also gonna try and regulate temp w/ frozen water jugs. Hopefully I can get another couple days out of it
And for $35 I think I’m gonna pick up the YAN testing kit too giving my nutrient regimen a little confidence boost.


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