# The Spaniards



## Johnd

The winery is back in business, the frozen must from Spain has arrived! A very long journey from the vineyard in Montsant wine region in Catalonia, northern Spain, via Toronto, where it sat for a few weeks to get through US Customs, and a truck ride down to southeast Louisiana.

Most of the frozen must I get just gets shipped on a pallet and is partially thawed when it arrives, this batch from Grapemasters was shipped in a freezer truck and arrived frozen solid. Total of 9 pails, 5 Tempranillo, 4 Merlot, are at home at the moment in the tub in warm water, hoping to get them thawed to above freezing for some cold soaking time as they warm.

I know, I know, pictures or it didn't happen, pics to come later this evening.......


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## stickman

Yes we're waiting for pics...in the mean time, be careful with the cold soak, stay below 50F if you are going to hold it for any length of time. Some of the wild/spoilage yeasts start multiplying and fermenting around 50F to 55F and are even SO2 tolerant to 50 to 70 ppm.


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> Yes we're waiting for pics...in the mean time, be careful with the cold soak, stay below 50F if you are going to hold it for any length of time. Some of the wild/spoilage yeasts start multiplying and fermenting around 50F to 55F and are even SO2 tolerant to 50 to 70 ppm.



No worries there, it was frozen solid as bucket shaped blocks. A little time in the tub full of hot water and I was able to dump them into fermenters and break them up. They're in the house at 70 and will slowly thaw and warm up to room temp with lots of agitation along the way. Temps are still below 32 in the must and it's not flowable yet. I'll pitch yeast at 65 and MLB a couple days later and we'll be off to the races.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> No worries there, it was frozen solid as bucket shaped blocks. A little time in the tub full of hot water and I was able to dump them into fermenters and break them up. They're in the house at 70 and will slowly thaw and warm up to room temp with lots of agitation along the way. Temps are still below 32 in the must and it's not flowable yet. I'll pitch yeast at 65 and MLB a couple days later and we'll be off to the races.



Remember earlier this Fall when a bunch of us were getting grapes from Cali-fornia? This is your payback, in the dead of winter, no grapes to be had around these parts, and your knee deep in must...enjoy my friend!


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> Remember earlier this Fall when a bunch of us were getting grapes from Cali-fornia? This is your payback, in the dead of winter, no grapes to be had around these parts, and your knee deep in must...enjoy my friend!



Although my Californians were a month behind y'all, it was an excruciating time frame. I'm pretty stoked about the grapemasters must, still icy, but really nice aroma, and the numbers he's had are solid, well timed picking numbers. 25 BRIX, 5.2 TA and 3.8 pH on the Tempranillo, little acidulated water my be needed, 24.5 BRIX, 6.6 TA and 3.5 pH, good to go, assuming my numbers are close. 

I'm going to make wines in three sessions this year, grapemasters frozen must in winter, Brehm frozen must in spring, Californians in the fall. Should be able to keep up with my habit.....


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Although my Californians were a month behind y'all, it was an excruciating time frame. I'm pretty stoked about the grapemasters must, still icy, but really nice aroma, and the numbers he's had are solid, well timed picking numbers. 25 BRIX, 5.2 TA and 3.8 pH on the Tempranillo, little acidulated water my be needed, 24.5 BRIX, 6.6 TA and 3.5 pH, good to go, assuming my numbers are close.
> 
> I'm going to make wines in three sessions this year, grapemasters frozen must in winter, Brehm frozen must in spring, Californians in the fall. Should be able to keep up with my habit.....



Ah, to play with numbers again. To have aromas of fresh grapes wafting through the house...I'll come visit in two years and see how you did! I keep telling my wife we need a vacation, and she likes warm weather in the Winter. She just has to become an RN so I can retire and travel.

So as you are enjoying your Spanish must, I'm toying with an apple juice based wine...hummm, can't figure out which I'd rather be fermenting, NOT!


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> So as you are enjoying your Spanish must, I'm toying with an apple juice based wine...hummm, can't figure out which I'd rather be fermenting, NOT!



I've been watching your apple project and thinking how good the clear amber colored carboy looks. If I didn't have these dudes on the way, I'd have been raiding the frozen concentrate section of the local supermarket!

Come on down in the winter, we'll send the ladies off sightseeing and lock ourselves in the wine room with a corkscrew, two glasses, and a wine thief.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> I've been watching your apple project and thinking how good the clear amber colored carboy looks. If I didn't have these dudes on the way, I'd have been raiding the frozen concentrate section of the local supermarket!
> 
> Come on down in the winter, we'll send the ladies off sightseeing and lock ourselves in the wine room with a corkscrew, two glasses, and a wine thief.



I could introduce you to the ancient carboy tipping habit...who needs a wine thief? (Though I will admit, not carboy tipping, only thiefing lately. I thiefed a 375 of my Lanza Zin for jgmann and realized that I haven't sampled my Zin since before MLF, I'm getting downright patient).


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> I could introduce you to the ancient carboy tipping habit...who needs a wine thief? (Though I will admit, not carboy tipping, only thiefing lately. I thiefed a 375 of my Lanza Zin for jgmann and realized that I haven't sampled my Zin since before MLF, I'm getting downright patient).



I should've been more specific. My wine thieves are the glass type with the open top that you put your thumb over to capture the wine. I use them as glass straws, as tipping carboys requires too much effort........


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> I should've been more specific. My wine thieves are the glass type with the open top that you put your thumb over to capture the wine. I use them as glass straws, as tipping carboys requires too much effort........


Nice, now you've done it, I'll infect all of my wines by the end of the weekend.

Okay. Back to your original reason for this thread, we need lot's of pictures and a play by play on these wines as they progress so we can live vicariously through your experiences (and become more and more jealous that we didn't order El musto de España). (Guessing that must is musto)


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> Nice, now you've done it, I'll infect all of my wines by the end of the weekend.
> 
> Okay. Back to your original reason for this thread, we need lot's of pictures and a play by play on these wines as they progress so we can live vicariously through your experiences (and become more and more jealous that we didn't order El musto de España). (Guessing that must is musto)



I'll keep my postings up to speed. I imagine I won't be able to mix this stuff up well enough to run any tests until Sunday.


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## Johnd

This morning, the ice was gone from the must and it got a good mixing with the punchdown tool, up to a balmy 28 F. Added a few grams of Lallzyme EX-V, rehydrated in water, to each container. It'll do its thing as the must cold soaks it's way to yeast pitching temps. 

Later on today, I'll mix well again and draw a small sample from each must, warm it up to room temps, and run the pH and TA tests. Tempranillo BRIX is sitting right at 24, Merlot is just a shade over 27. I'll check both BRIX again later as the musts warm and the enzymes work on them a bit.


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## Johnd

Went to work on the must while getting the baby backs going for dinner. Started off with the Tempranillo first. 

Initial BRIX at 23
pH 3.95
TA 4.8 g/l
I was a bit surprised by the numbers, but having fresh chems and pH calibration done, there were no lies being told. In the end, after incremental adjustments, I had added 1.5 pounds of sugar and 70 g of tartaric acid to achieve the starting point:
BRIX 24
pH 3.56
TA 6.4 g/l

Fairly pleased with the results on the must I thought would be the most challenging, I moved on to the Merlot:
BRIX 27.3
pH 3.41
TA 8.8 g/l
Crap, I was planning on a little acidulated water to bring the BRIX down while maintaining what I expected to be less challenging acid. The best laid plans......
After taxing the chemistry part of my brain for a while, and constructing various scenarios on fermcalc, added a touch over 2 gallons of water, the non acidulated type. Pretty simple once the chemistry was done and the decision was made. 
BRIX 25
pH 3.5
TA 7.8 g/l
Not ideal but a decent starting point. My hope, leaving the pH a tad low and the TA a tad high, is that they will meander back into the pH 3.6 / TA 7.0 range post AF and MLF. Just have to check and taste down the road and see how it pans out. Hated to add water, but 2 gallons in 25 G of must isn't that much, plus it'll get me an extra case of wine.


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## Johnd

Must temps were up above 60F on Sunday evening, so I inoculated the must with BM 4x4. Looked like the end of the lag phase yesterday evening as the must started to form a slightly raised cap around the perimeter, so it got a dose of Fermaid K. This morning, first caps of 2017 and it smells like heaven in here. Bent down for a closer whiff, yep, co2 burn to the nose. Forgot about that. 

Tonight, I'll rehydrate the MLB in Acti ML and mix it into the musts with a good dose of Opti ML and let all of the little bugs do their things.


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## Johnd

Rehydrated VP41 in Actiml, mixed it into the must, added some optiml, let it roll.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Rehydrated VP41 in Actiml, mixed it into the must, added some optiml, let it roll.


I'm assuming that your initial fermentation is just starting to go in earnest? Will be watching to see if there is any noticeable difference to pitching the MLB during early fermentation verses after primary fermentation has completed...(thinking a higher ending SG or some extra flavors (from VA) being produced). I'm watching you.


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> I'm assuming that your initial fermentation is just starting to go in earnest? Will be watching to see if there is any noticeable difference to pitching the MLB during early fermentation verses after primary fermentation has completed...(thinking a higher ending SG or some extra flavors (from VA) being produced). I'm watching you.



Did it on the California must this past fall, worked great and was finished around the same time as you guys that did fresh grapes. I'm paying particular attention to feeding the yeast and MLB so nobody gets stressed. My bugs are getting in there in low abv environment, plenty of warm temps, and boatloads of food, and hopefully acclimating to the alcohol as it increases. I'm three for three, knock on wood. 

The guy I got the must from thaws it, let's it warm, and adds nothing but nutrients, wild yeast and wild MLB do all his work. Almost had me convinced..........almost.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Did it on the California must this past fall, worked great and was finished around the same time as you guys that did fresh grapes. I'm paying particular attention to feeding the yeast and MLB so nobody gets stressed. My bugs are getting in there in low abv environment, plenty of warm temps, and boatloads of food, and hopefully acclimating to the alcohol as it increases. I'm three for three, knock on wood.
> 
> The guy I got the must from thaws it, let's it warm, and adds nothing but nutrients, wild yeast and wild MLB do all his work. Almost had me convinced..........almost.



I missed that one (or forgot, Alzheimers kicking in). Wanted to do it last Fall but I'm so new to some of this stuff I need to try it the traditional way to make sure my technique allows it to work before experimenting too much. I've read the arguments about the early low ethanol introduction of the MLB and the benefits of that, and buy into them to a point. But for now I'm living vicariously through a few of you as you try new things, because I'm new and a big chicken. I'd be a little leery about the wild yeast and wild MLB thing too! Maybe one at a time.


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## Johnd

Fermentation is going very well, been getting some really nice caps, punching down 6-8 times per day, great aroma, no off smells. First check, SG on both musts was down around 1.050 this morning, so they'll get dose 2 of Fermaid K this evening. 

Temps in the house are 70 F, as opposed to 75 F in the non winter months, so they're not getting the temp spikes into the upper 80's, just around 83 - 84.

Tempranillo is just slightly ahead of the Merlot, but hopefully both will be down into the 1.000 - 1.010 range by Sunday and will be agle to get both batches pressed and into glass before the end of the weekend.


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## Johny99

Living vicariously through you Johnd. I did sequential mlf with my reds and BM4X4 this year. Mlf all done on 1-2, well except the wife's Chardonnay. It seems I forgot to inoculate ir. So since I'm too cheap to order more bugs, I'm going the natural route. Scary with no meta yet, but well topped off so hopefully it will work out.

Any interesting to see when your mlf is done with the coinnoculation.


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## Johnd

Johny99 said:


> interesting to see when your mlf is done with the coinnoculation.



I'll keep you posted, but as I mentioned to Craig a few posts back, did it also with this Fall's California wines. Pressed and moved into carboys, racked off of the gross lees two days later, and when I did my first test they were mostly done. All of the cabs had completed 18 days after pitching MLB during AF. The petite syrah lagged behind a couple weeks. The merlot made a career of it, as merlot will do sometimes, but it eventually limped across the line............


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## Johnd

Tempranillo at 1.000 this morning, Merlot at 1.019, moving day for the Temp. Vacuum racked a full carboy of wine, plus another 2-3 gallons in the second carboy. Time to go to pressing!


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## Boatboy24

Gosh, those pics make me nervous!!


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Gosh, those pics make me nervous!!



Fermentation and vacuum transfer completed without a drop escaping the fermenters or carboys!! Don't be scared!


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## Johnd

First press basket loaded of 2017, Happy New Year!


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## Stressbaby

@Johnd, I have a question about your press.

It looks like the same press I have. But you have it elevated with a 4x4 under each leg. I would like to do that in order to get a bucket underneath, but I was concerned about the stability.

How stable is that setup? Do you have any issues with the press sliding or screws loosening? And how tall are the 4x4s?


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## Johnd

Not too shabby, three hours from getting started to kicking back on the couch. Almost a full 18 gallons from 4.5 buckets, one on the right is free run, middle is half and half, left is the press juice. Probably will end up with 15 gallons or so in the end, so about as expected, 67% of the must volume is wine. 

Tomorrow after work, I'll do it all over again, the Merlot will be ready. Expecting a slightly better yield there, since it had to be watered back with a high BRIX.


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## Johnd

Stressbaby said:


> @Johnd, I have a question about your press.
> 
> It looks like the same press I have. But you have it elevated with a 4x4 under each leg. I would like to do that in order to get a bucket underneath, but I was concerned about the stability.
> 
> How stable is that setup? Do you have any issues with the press sliding or screws loosening? And how tall are the 4x4s?



It is very stable, I used treated 4x4's which are heavy and keep the press from being top heavy, I have no complaints. There's a single hole in each foot of the press stand, I predrilled a 3/8" hole into each 4x4, and installed a 1/2" galvanized lag bolt 3" long, tight as a drum. 

As far as the height goes, I measured the height of a carboy and made the legs tall enough to get one under the discharge spout, which also works well for a bucket with strainers. For my press, the legs are 12" tall and puts the discharge spout just under 22" off the ground.


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## Stressbaby

Johnd said:


> It is very stable, I used treated 4x4's which are heavy and keep the press from being top heavy, I have no complaints. There's a single hole in each foot of the press stand, I predrilled a 3/8" hole into each 4x4, and installed a 1/2" galvanized lag bolt 3" long, tight as a drum.
> 
> As far as the height goes, I measured the height of a carboy and made the legs tall enough to get one under the discharge spout, which also works well for a bucket with strainers. For my press, the legs are 12" tall and puts the discharge spout just under 22" off the ground.



Thanks. I'm surprised you have no problems with the lag bolts screwed into end grain of the 4x4. Now off to the workshop to see what I've got on hand...


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## Johnd

Stressbaby said:


> Thanks. I'm surprised you have no problems with the lag bolts screwed into end grain of the 4x4. Now off to the workshop to see what I've got on hand...



Key is to predrill so you don't split the end grain, but not too deep or two big that it doesn't hold tight. Squirt a little gorilla glue in there if you like, then the lag bolt.


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## Stressbaby

Done, thanks! I used 3/8" 5" lag bolts.
I may add some leveling feet like this on the bottom: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-16-in-Threaded-Glide-4603644EB/203672161


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## Johnd

Stressbaby said:


> Done, thanks! I used 3/8" 5" lag bolts.
> I may add some leveling feet like this on the bottom: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-1-16-in-Threaded-Glide-4603644EB/203672161



Nice!! My next move will be wheels on the bottom.


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## Johnd

Merlot pressing this evening, big improvement on my time expended, two hours stem to stern. Filled three carboys with a few ml to spare. 

Photo of the six amigos, finishing AF and MLF.


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## Johnd

Got up early this morning as we had severe weather warnings and huge thunderstorms rolling through here, and decided to run a chromo to see where things stood. Couple folks were following this co-inoculation ( @ceeaton , @johny99 )my second time doing it. 

Pitched yeast (BM 4x4)on the previously frozen must on 1/8/17, it was still pretty cool and I did not sulfite it at all. First cap was on 1/11/17, which is when I pitched VP41 along with acti / optic products. Pressed and went to glass on 1/15 and 1/16, racked off of gross lees on 1/18 and 1/19. This test is 11 days after pitching MLB , and AF is crawling to a halt. 

You can see the T M L standards to the left, followed by Fall Merlot 1 & 2 (they were a tad slow), Tempranillo 1 & 2, Temp / Merlot blend, and Merlot 1, 2 & 3. Pretty impressive.


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## Tnuscan

I'm glad to hear your having good luck with this, I will give it a try this next go around.


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## stickman

Looks good, not too much longer. Did you get a PH yet? Just curious on the effect of AF and ML on the PH.


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## Johny99

Pretty nice, 11 days and you are close. Looks like they will end at about the same time


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## Johnd

stickman said:


> Looks good, not too much longer. Did you get a PH yet? Just curious on the effect of AF and ML on the PH.



No, no testing yet. I'll run some numbers and post them in a few weeks when it's time to hit them with some sulfite.


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## Johnd

Ran a chromo overnight, took it out this morning to dry. All clear on the Montsant Tempranillo and Merlot. Some time during the next week I'll do some pH / TA reading, racking and sulfiting. Might buy another barrel.....


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## Johnd

Did some lab work on the Spaniards, here's how they sit today, not yet sulfited or moved to the wine room, but finished MLF:

Montsant Tempranillo
Initial BRIX at 23, adjusted to 24, dry now
pH 3.95, adjusted to 3.56, 3.70 today
TA 4.8 g/l, adjusted to 6.4 g/l, 7.0 g/l today

Montsant Merlot
Initial BRIX 27.3, adjusted to 25, dry today
pH 3.40, adjusted to 3.50, 3.47 today
TA 8.8 g/l, adjusted to 7.8 g/l, 7.8 g/l today

I'll probably ride the numbers above for a while and evaluate again before they hit the barrels. 

Also did a 50/50 Temp/Merlot Blend at pressing / racking, it is currently at pH 3.59, TA 6.6 g/l
The blend has the best numbers of the whole lot! Something to consider down the road.....


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## Tnuscan

Johnd said:


> Did some lab work on the Spaniards, here's how they sit today, not yet sulfited or moved to the wine room, but finished MLF:
> 
> Montsant Tempranillo
> Initial BRIX at 23, adjusted to 24, dry now
> pH 3.95, adjusted to 3.56, 3.70 today
> TA 4.8 g/l, adjusted to 6.4 g/l, 7.0 g/l today
> 
> Montsant Merlot
> Initial BRIX 27.3, adjusted to 25, dry today
> pH 3.40, adjusted to 3.50, 3.47 today
> TA 8.8 g/l, adjusted to 7.8 g/l, 7.8 g/l today
> 
> I'll probably ride the numbers above for a while and evaluate again before they hit the barrels.
> 
> Also did a 50/50 Temp/Merlot Blend at pressing / racking, it is currently at pH 3.59, TA 6.6 g/l
> The blend has the best numbers of the whole lot! Something to consider down the road.....



Seeing the numbers really help me get the whole picture. I am intrigued at how the TA lowered with blending. I really like those numbers, and seeing them all togeather I now understand how the blending can change things.

Thanks!!!


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## Johnd

Tnuscan said:


> Seeing the numbers really help me get the whole picture. I am intrigued at how the TA lowered with blending. I really like those numbers, and seeing them all togeather I now understand how the blending can change things.
> 
> Thanks!!!



You said you liked to see it all together, so I posted it that way, good exercise for me too. What's a little freaky are the merlots. Look at the Spanish Merlot and pop over to the Lanza Merlot on the southern crush day day thread. From two different continents, the only two whose ph lowered and TA increased from preferment to post MLF. I'll treat it differently in the future. 

My takeaway from the exercise, other than the Merlot anomaly, is to shoot for a TA around 7 and ph of 3.5, preferment, and let the AF and MLF bring it back into the sweet spot........hopefully.


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## Johnd

Racked and sulfited the Spanish wines today. Made a mental error, not winethreatening, but definitely not good. 

Had the 6 carboys to be racked on the ground, only 4 empty carboys, so I sanitized the 4. Dumped about a cup or so kms into thr first, sloshed around well, dumped it into the second, repeat til the fourth was done. Left the solution in the fourth to us to sanitize the first two carboys I emptied and cleaned. 

Can you see it coming? Set up the vacuum and started racking, right down the line til the last clean carboy was full, adding kms to each as I hooked the vacuum to it. So carboy 4 got 1/4 tsp plus about a cup of solution, which equates to about another half teaspoon, for a total of 3/4 tsp in a pH 3.59 wine. Triple + dose. Guess it'll be pretty safe for a while, I'll check it in about 6 months.


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## jburtner

Did grapemasters close their doors? Website doesn't work anymore. 

Cheers!
Johann


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## Johnd

jburtner said:


> Did grapemasters close their doors? Website doesn't work anymore.
> 
> Cheers!
> Johann



Not that I know of Johann, I talked with Charles just a few days ago. Did try the website, but it says that the server is unavailable. 

You could try his email if you like: [email protected]


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## jburtner

Thanks John! I'll shoot an email. I had browsed the site before and may like to order for spring.

Cheers!
-johann


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## cgallamo

John have you tasted recently? Are these in barrels?


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## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> John have you tasted recently? Are these in barrels?



Haven't tasted recently, but they're due for racking on 5/11, that'll be my next chance. If you'd like me to take a taste before then, I'll be happy to @ceeaton a little bit and let you know how it is.......


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## cgallamo

I'll be in New Orleans for Jazz fest I could help you


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## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> I'll be in New Orleans for Jazz fest I could help you



LOL, I'm certain that we could arrange a tasting, shoot me a PM and let me know when you'll be in the area and we'll see if it'll work out.


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## cgallamo

Sounds great. Still working on arrangements, but if we can work it out I'll bring some of my stuff too.


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## Johnd

A little update, prompted by @cgallamo , these wines were started in January of 2017, so about a year old and still in glass.

Two carboys of Merlot went into two 6 gallon Vadai barrels last weekend, both barrels are neutral, so I added 1 FR M+ Wine Stix and 1 AM M+ Wine Stix to each barrel. Plan to leave the Merlot in barrels for 6 months before racking out, making final evaluations / adjustments and bottling. I wasn't really thrilled about putting them into separate barrels, but only have one 12 gallon barrel, decided to save that for the Tempranillo.

The Tempranillo remains in glass, waiting for another wine to finish up in the 12 gallon barrel, some time in the next few months.

Recall that I had one carboy of a Temp / Merlot blend, it's been sitting in glass with FR M+ Wine Stix for a long time, having been racked off of fine sediment some 8 months ago, and not dropping any more. It was decided that this blend wasn't going to spend any time in a barrel, but be aged in glass, it's really ready to be evaluated, adjusted and bottled, I just haven't gotten around to it.

Last tasting of the three was good, they're all fairly impressive for being under a year old, still a tad green and tannic, but that's to be expected. I believe that tasting was around October of 2017.


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## cgallamo

Awesome - thanks for the update. I bet they are amazing. That tannin could turn into something beautiful in a few years. How do you like the flavors from the Vadai? So how long do you plan to leave the Tempranillo in the barrel?


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## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> Awesome - thanks for the update. I bet they are amazing. That tannin could turn into something beautiful in a few years. How do you like the flavors from the Vadai? So how long do you plan to leave the Tempranillo in the barrel?



Certainly hoping that the tannins mellow, and expect that they will. I like the flavors from the vadai, and am experimenting with my first French oak barrel flavors, and really like what I’m tasting and smelling thus far. All of my vadai barrels are neutral now, so I’ll leave the wine in the 12 gallon barrel for 6 - 12 months, just need to keep an eye out for oxidation.


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## cgallamo

Have you ever noticed any oxidation? They seem so thick, seems like the benefit of micro oxidation.


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## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> Have you ever noticed any oxidation? They seem so thick, seems like the benefit of micro oxidation.



I haven't ever noticed any oxidation, but have always tended not to push the line too far, and always try to keep my sulfites in line. Advice given by several of our members here, based on barrel size, is not to leave a wine in a 6 gallon barrel more than 6 months to avoid the risk of over oxygenation, I've gone as much as 7 months with no noticeable effects. Of course, these are neutral barrels, that long with a new barrel would overpower the wine with oak. As the barrel size increases, the wine volume to barrel surface area decreases, and longer sits are ok. I'm planning to leave the 17 wine in the 30 gallon barrel for a year, if the oak doesn't get too overpowering, but I don't have a feel for that barrel yet, time will tell......


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## cgallamo

I left my rattlesnake cabernet/merlot in the vadai (50L) for 7 months. It was a little too long. I really liked it out of the barrel, but I like oak bombs. It may have to sit for years to integrate. I really love wines from Montsant (usually Grenache (Garnacha)), so I bet you have something great going there.


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## salernovic

I’ve been following the progress of your montsant merlot and Tempranillo since this year I’m going to try Charles merlot for the first time along with grenach , carignan and Cabernet Sauvignon. I have the 2016 Tempranillo in a 100l zemplen barrel from Hungary now and plan to leave it for 9 months or so. It’s a 3rd use barrel that I rotated some niagara cab Franc already and 2016 montsant syrah that was in there for 5 months. The Tempranillo seems tannic but the flavour profile is great . I have a ph of 3.71 in mine and it doesn’t taste green, just tannic but probably will fine with egg whites in semptember and bottle in October. That will give me 16 months of aging which should be enough. The syrah is great as well, little more alchool but the flavour is there and these are the best wine I’ve ever made even though you have to play around a little with ph and water additions , it’s worth the effort.


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## gitmo234

Are you US based? Real question is will grapemasters ship to the US? I've seriously been looking for some tempranillo

EDIT: Disregard. It's plain and clear on their website


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## Johnd

salernovic said:


> I’ve been following the progress of your montsant merlot and Tempranillo since this year I’m going to try Charles merlot for the first time along with grenach , carignan and Cabernet Sauvignon. I have the 2016 Tempranillo in a 100l zemplen barrel from Hungary now and plan to leave it for 9 months or so. It’s a 3rd use barrel that I rotated some niagara cab Franc already and 2016 montsant syrah that was in there for 5 months. The Tempranillo seems tannic but the flavour profile is great . I have a ph of 3.71 in mine and it doesn’t taste green, just tannic but probably will fine with egg whites in semptember and bottle in October. That will give me 16 months of aging which should be enough. The syrah is great as well, little more alchool but the flavour is there and these are the best wine I’ve ever made even though you have to play around a little with ph and water additions , it’s worth the effort.



I'm pretty impressed with his stuff thus far, they're getting some age on them, but still haven't gotten the Temp. into a barrel yet, Merlot has been in for a bit. I have similar tasting recollections of the Temp. and Merlot, good fruity flavors, but still a little tight and tannic. I'm suspecting that when I can get them through the barrel(s) that they will really come around. None of my wines have had an finings added to them, just fermented and aged....


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## salernovic

Johnd said:


> I'm pretty impressed with his stuff thus far, they're getting some age on them, but still haven't gotten the Temp. into a barrel yet, Merlot has been in for a bit. I have similar tasting recollections of the Temp. and Merlot, good fruity flavors, but still a little tight and tannic. I'm suspecting that when I can get them through the barrel(s) that they will really come around. None of my wines have had an finings added to them, just fermented and aged....


Yea I agree , the tannin is there. I recall tasting the Tempranillo right after it went dry and remember detecting a metallic taste in my mouth. I’m guessing it was the tannin . That flavour is gone now but there is no comparison between glass wine and barreled wine. I did a side by side with my Syrah and it’s just crazy how sharp the carboy syrah tastes compare to the barrel one. I forgot to mention that my Syrah is in a 30 gallon flextank now and it has a ph of 3.6. Little lower than the Tempranillo but a lot smoother .


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## Johnd

Update: Had a Tempranillo / Merlot 50/50 blended at pressing (mentioned in post 40). It’s been in 6 gallon glass since pressing, racked a couple of times, and has been sitting with 2 M+ French Wine Stix for many months, never seen a barrel. It has a nice aroma, good oak, flavors that really haven’t developed yet, and it’s still real tight and tannic. Monkeyed around with the acid in some samples a bit, ultimately ended up bottling it without changing the batch. I’ll be able to compare this wine to the Tempranillo and Merlot which did go through the barrels, just to see how the development differs, though I already know that the Merlot in the barrel is substantially more developed. Probably will not get this blend into the drinking rotation for several years.


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## cgallamo

Great idea! My guess is it will take longer to integrate and mellow without the micro-oxygenation etc. But there is nothing like experience. What kind of corks? Will you be able to let it sit for 5 or 10 years?


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## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> Great idea! My guess is it will take longer to integrate and mellow without the micro-oxygenation etc. But there is nothing like experience. What kind of corks? Will you be able to let it sit for 5 or 10 years?



#9 x 1-3/4” corks from Lafitte, not the highest quality they offer, but a couple grades down from there. Don’t suspect they’ll have any issues with aging time, bottles stored on their sides in the cellar at 55F and 70% RH, they should last longer than the wine. 

I work pretty hard at extraction with my reds, these got cold soaked, LallzymeEX, fermentation temps in the upper 80’s for a day, multiple vigorous punch downs per day, didn’t press til nearly dry, pretty good pressing effort. My reds all seem to be well extracted, maybe too much so, particularly with respect to tannins. Went a little lighter on the 17’s, they’re already more approachable. Considering ratcheting back even more on the 18’s, maybe experimenting with some cooler fermentation temps and some whole berry fermentation. What a sport, once you think you understand how the game is played, the more you realize how flexible the rules are.......


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## cgallamo

Johnd said:


> View attachment 46820
> 
> I work pretty hard at extraction with my reds.....



I know you do John - I pretty much learned from you and this thread how to get the extraction going for my Rattlesnake Hills Cab blend. I've also been going with longer cooler ferments to get more fruit. I really liked the fruit flavors in the Grenache I just did and The ferment never got over 80 degrees. The aromas are amazing. Your last sentence is so true. The more experience I get, the more I feel like there is more I don't know. But that's helps keep my interest.

Why do you think the wine won't last? Or maybe I misunderstand?


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## gitmo234

I'm dying for some Tempranillo. Not available anywhere yet. I'm in that space after putting a wine into MLF and having nothing to do. So I'm antsy. Ordered some Mourvedre from wine grapes direct


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## cgallamo

gitmo234 said:


> I'm dying for some Tempranillo. Not available anywhere yet. I'm in that space after putting a wine into MLF and having nothing to do. So I'm antsy. Ordered some Mourvedre from wine grapes direct


I have done that exact Mourvedre a couple of times. I actually purchased the tote (pictured) - which I drained about 12 gallons from for a Rose, and left the skins on for a bigger red. I'm hoping it blends well with the Syrah and Grenache in a Chateau du Beaucastle style (GSM heavy on the M). let me know how it turns out.


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## gitmo234

Will do. It should be arriving saturday. I was just emailed an hour or so ago.


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## Johnd

cgallamo said:


> Why do you think the wine won't last? Or maybe I misunderstand?



LOL, think I’ll drink it for sure in less time than the cork will last!!


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## cgallamo

Johnd said:


> LOL, think I’ll drink it for sure in less time than the cork will last!!


I always think the wine will last longer than it does. Had people over last weekend and knocked out a case of chenin blanc/viogner. I guess that's the best way for it to go.


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## Johnd

Johnd said:


> Update: Had a Tempranillo / Merlot 50/50 blended at pressing (mentioned in post 40). It’s been in 6 gallon glass since pressing, racked a couple of times, and has been sitting with 2 M+ French Wine Stix for many months, never seen a barrel. It has a nice aroma, good oak, flavors that really haven’t developed yet, and it’s still real tight and tannic. Monkeyed around with the acid in some samples a bit, ultimately ended up bottling it without changing the batch. I’ll be able to compare this wine to the Tempranillo and Merlot which did go through the barrels, just to see how the development differs, though I already know that the Merlot in the barrel is substantially more developed. Probably will not get this blend into the drinking rotation for several years.



Been almost two months since bottling, had a scheduled tasting of this blend last night just to get an idea of where it's starting from. It was pretty darn good, we drank the whole bottle. It'll definitely be a while before it mellows, kinda kicking myself for not running it through a barrel to round and smooth it our a bit before bottling, but was very please with it, all things considered. The fruit has really started to come together, nice jammy flavors and a bit of black pepper spice, tannins are still a little on the noticeable side and a smidge of bitterness in the finish, but that'll dissipate over time. We'll give it another whirl in October.........


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## stickman

@Johnd based on your description, it sounds like you'll be in for a nice ride, some of these wines with a bit of tannin can take time, but often end up better than wines that are completely supple right out of the gate. You'll be rediscovering this wine for years to come, that is if you don't drink it before then.


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## ceeaton

stickman said:


> @Johnd based on your description, it sounds like you'll be in for a nice ride, some of these wines with a bit of tannin can take time, but often end up better than wines that are completely supple right out of the gate. You'll be rediscovering this wine for years to come, that is if you don't drink it before then.


Or if he doesn't send me a case of it !


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## johndghost

stickman said:


> @Johnd based on your description, it sounds like you'll be in for a nice ride, some of these wines with a bit of tannin can take time, but often end up better than wines that are completely supple right out of the gate. You'll be rediscovering this wine for years to come, that is if you don't drink it before then.


 
I’m pretty solid on preservation, 31 bottles to start with, and still have 30 left. I’ve got plenty to keep me happy while the young stuff grows up.


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## johndghost

ceeaton said:


> Or if he doesn't send me a case of it !



Stranger things have happened for sure! Maybe like a 6 pack??


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## Johnd

Racked one of the '16 cabs out of the 40 L Vadai yesterday and finally got the last of the 16 Spaniards in barrel, the Tempranillo. Even though it's just been in glass, it's starting to come around a bit and will stay in the barrel til winter this year. The barrel is pretty much neutral, so i dropped four Wine Stix in there, one M+ French, three M+ American along with a dose of sulfite. Have the extra wine from the two carboys in bottles to be used for topping during the barrel time. Feeling like things are finally catching up, don't have nearly so much wine sitting around waiting on barrels.


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## Johnd

7/14/18 is the 6 month “out of barrel” date on the Montsant Merlot in barrels 2 & 4. When I rack them out, I only have one carboy of wine waiting for barrel time, the ‘17 Cab press wine. I’m going to have an empty 6 gallon barrel, haven’t really decided what to do with it yet, but I’ve got two more due to get emptied in October, followed by the 12 gallon barrel. I’ll be down to just the 30 gallon French and the one 6 gallon I’ll put the Cab press in, which will come out in January. Been working toward this day for years!!


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## Johnd

Wrapping this thread up tonight, having bottled the partial carboy (27 bottles) a few days ago, bottled the remaining full carboy today (31 bottles), 58 bottles in all.

The GrapeMasters Tempranillo must arrived on 1/6/17, thawed, adjusted, and BM 4x4 was pitched on 1/8/17. BRIX was adjusted from 23 to 24 with sugar; pH from 3.95 to 3.56, and TA from 4.8 to 6.4 with 70g tartaric just prior to adding yeast. VP 41 added on 1/11/17, racked and pressed on 1/15/17, MLF completed shortly afterwards.

Carboys moved to the wine room at 55F on 2/11/17, where they stayed (with two additional rackings) until April of 2018. In April, the wine went into a neutral 11 +/- gallon Vadai with 4 Wine Stix, one French, three American. Final numbers on the wine, pH 3.70, and TA 7.0.

Wine tastes great, bright with lots of red and black fruit, hint of tobacco, and it has a really long finish. Didn’t do any bench trials, no desire to raise the TA above 7.0. It’s two years old now, bottles will get labeled soon and the wine will go into the drinking rotation after it settles down a bit.

And that’s a wrap!! I’ll definitely do some Grapemasters fruit again, it turned out great!


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## CDrew

I like Tempranillo generally and it's definitely on my short list for next year. Glad yours turned out so well. It would have been interesting to see how a no oak sample would taste compared to the barreled and oaked final version.

When you say the barrel was neutral, is that by your taste, or by time, or by volume of wine that has been through it? Just curious how this is determined.


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## Johnd

CDrew said:


> I like Tempranillo generally and it's definitely on my short list for next year. Glad yours turned out so well. It would have been interesting to see how a no oak sample would taste compared to the barreled and oaked final version.
> 
> When you say the barrel was neutral, is that by your taste, or by time, or by volume of wine that has been through it? Just curious how this is determined.



Pretty much by all of the above. Barrel was everal years old, saw many wines, and had ceased imparting ant oaky goodness. 

I did have a gallon of Tempranillo that didn’t see the barrel, but it was blended back into the barrel wine when it came out of the barrel. Sadly, I didn’t even taste it.


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## jburtner

I almost lined up some grapemasters tempranillo around that time also but fedex shipping dropped the ball with customs and unfortunately it didn’t work out. I’d like to do some at some point. 

Glad yours has turned out well 

Cheers!
Johann


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## stickman

Nice summary, glad it all went well, it seems like you've got the pipeline filled with some good stuff and more on the way.


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## Chuck E

jburtner said:


> I almost lined up some grapemasters tempranillo around that time also but fedex shipping dropped the ball with customs and unfortunately it didn’t work out. I’d like to do some at some point.
> 
> Glad yours has turned out well
> 
> Cheers!
> Johann



I had HUGE problems with FedEx bringing wine from Italy to US. I think FedEx has a rule that they will not ship wine or alcohol. But they neglected to tell us that in Italy when we shipped it. It made it to Memphis, sat there for a while, then was returned to sender. Only it got stuck in Milan for incorrect paperwork, so it was returned to Memphis. Just received it yesterday (shipped 10/31/18). The boxes have more stickers on them than a steamer trunk from the old days. I think the boxes have more frequent flyer miles than I do!


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## Johnd

Chuck E said:


> I had HUGE problems with FedEx bringing wine from Italy to US. I think FedEx has a rule that they will not ship wine or alcohol. But they neglected to tell us that in Italy when we shipped it. It made it to Memphis, sat there for a while, then was returned to sender. Only it got stuck in Milan for incorrect paperwork, so it was returned to Memphis. Just received it yesterday (shipped 10/31/18). The boxes have more stickers on them than a steamer trunk from the old days. I think the boxes have more frequent flyer miles than I do!



@jburtner was having Tempranillo grape must shipped in, not wine......


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## Chuck E

John, where did you get that perforated tube that you are using to rack your fermenter?


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## Johnd

Chuck E said:


> John, where did you get that perforated tube that you are using to rack your fermenter?



LOL!! You mean the “tube of a gajillion holes”? I made is from a piece of schedule 40 pipe, used a piece of perforated soffit to guide in the hole drilling process. Got the idea from here and ran with it, works like a charm.


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## Ajmassa

Chuck E said:


> John, where did you get that perforated tube that you are using to rack your fermenter?



Check out this thread. All kinds of ideas and info in there. 


https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?threads/Pvc-tube.58301/


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## salernovic

Johnd said:


> Wrapping this thread up tonight, having bottled the partial carboy (27 bottles) a few days ago, bottled the remaining full carboy today (31 bottles), 58 bottles in all.
> 
> The GrapeMasters Tempranillo must arrived on 1/6/17, thawed, adjusted, and BM 4x4 was pitched on 1/8/17. BRIX was adjusted from 23 to 24 with sugar; pH from 3.95 to 3.56, and TA from 4.8 to 6.4 with 70g tartaric just prior to adding yeast. VP 41 added on 1/11/17, racked and pressed on 1/15/17, MLF completed shortly afterwards.
> 
> Carboys moved to the wine room at 55F on 2/11/17, where they stayed (with two additional rackings) until April of 2018. In April, the wine went into a neutral 11 +/- gallon Vadai with 4 Wine Stix, one French, three American. Final numbers on the wine, pH 3.70, and TA 7.0.
> 
> Wine tastes great, bright with lots of red and black fruit, hint of tobacco, and it has a really long finish. Didn’t do any bench trials, no desire to raise the TA above 7.0. It’s two years old now, bottles will get labeled soon and the wine will go into the drinking rotation after it settles down a bit.
> 
> And that’s a wrap!! I’ll definitely do some Grapemasters fruit again, it turned out great!
> View attachment 52756




I’m glad you’re liking the results with your must From spain. 
I really like my Tempranillo as well . That has been in barrel for 7 months and i bottled it in late August. I remember as soon as I pressed it it was metallic and super super dry and tannic. Now it’s completely different .
I suggest you try the syrah from Montsant. I sent a bottle to Daniel pambianchi and I was short one mark from extraordinary but he also said it was way too young and shouldn’t drink beautifully in 5 years or longer. 
I can’t wait to put my Montsant merlot in barrel. It’s a 2017 and it has some wonderful rich flavors but super dry as well for now.

Love reading your posts 
Really detailed and I’m learning a lot as well
Ciao


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## Johnd

salernovic said:


> I’m glad you’re liking the results with your must From spain.
> I really like my Tempranillo as well . That has been in barrel for 7 months and i bottled it in late August. I remember as soon as I pressed it it was metallic and super super dry and tannic. Now it’s completely different .
> I suggest you try the syrah from Montsant. I sent a bottle to Daniel pambianchi and I was short one mark from extraordinary but he also said it was way too young and shouldn’t drink beautifully in 5 years or longer.
> I can’t wait to put my Montsant merlot in barrel. It’s a 2017 and it has some wonderful rich flavors but super dry as well for now.
> 
> Love reading your posts
> Really detailed and I’m learning a lot as well
> Ciao



Sounds like yours turned out pretty good as well, our early tasting observations were pretty similar, they seem consistent in young red wines with good extraction, tight and tannic at a young age, to be expected. Mine was a 2016 vintage, though it didn't get here and start until the early January of '17. No doubt from all of the wines that have been through barrels that it makes a huge positive impact upon the development of the wines. The '16 Montsant Merlot has been bottled for quite a while, and hasn't been sampled in quite some time by me, though a few bottles were drank over at my parents house during the holidays. Gonna have to sit down and give it a go pretty soon.

Glad you enjoyed the thread, does my a lot of good to chronicle the process, and I refer back to them sometimes when my batch notes aren't as detailed as they should be.


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## Johnd

2016 is officially in the books now. Montsant Tempranillo is capsuled, labeled, and ready to be shelved. Started this wine two years ago from 5 pails of frozen must, so it’s got a little age on it and will go into the rotation after a short rest in the cellar. It’s very approachable right now, though I do expect to see some improvement as it ages more. With 58 bottles, it should still be around for years to come.


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