# Help identifying this red grape. Cali, Sierra Nevada foothills



## Zintrigue (Sep 20, 2018)

Hey guys. I did a google search for a few minutes and didn't stumble across anything close to what I've got here. Leaves are kinda fluffy shaped, not a typical grape leaf. I figured I'd ask the pros. I don't plan on sending it in for identification, I'll settle for "close enough."

The guy who gave me the grapes said its a 100 year old vine and he has no idea what it is. I'm skeptical of the age. Anyway, here are the pics of what I got. If it's a decent grape I'll hit the guy up for more from now on. Maybe I can make my first wine from purely grapes instead of a kit.

Thanks for taking a look.


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## TOMMARIANI22 (Sep 20, 2018)

Zinfandel


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## CK55 (Sep 20, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Hey guys. I did a google search for a few minutes and didn't stumble across anything close to what I've got here. Leaves are kinda fluffy shaped, not a typical grape leaf. I figured I'd ask the pros. I don't plan on sending it in for identification, I'll settle for "close enough."
> 
> The guy who gave me the grapes said its a 100 year old vine and he has no idea what it is. I'm skeptical of the age. Anyway, here are the pics of what I got. If it's a decent grape I'll hit the guy up for more from now on. Maybe I can make my first wine from purely grapes instead of a kit.
> 
> Thanks for taking a look.


It does look like zin, but also Gamay which looks quite similar. If you get a cutting, send it to me, i would like to try and grow it and i would pay the cash to get it tested.


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## balatonwine (Sep 21, 2018)

Hm..... That leaf looks nothing like a "classic" Zinfandel leaf structure. Such as:







From:

http://www.gotastewine.com/wine-varietals.php#


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## CK55 (Sep 21, 2018)

Im really leaning towards gamay look at the picture on wikipedia, hell it looks almost just like the grape you have! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamay

Of course you washed the white film off but still.


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## balatonwine (Sep 21, 2018)

Assuming this is Vinifera, Gamay as already suggested is possible. I would also look at Malbec. But from one (unhealthy?) leaf, and one cluster sample only, it may be hard to key out very well. Quite frankly, I am guessing on this one, and don't know.


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## CK55 (Sep 21, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Assuming this is Vinifera, Gamay as already suggested is possible. I would also look at Malbec. But from one (unhealthy?) leaf, and one cluster sample only, it may be hard to key out very well. Quite frankly, I am guessing on this one, and don't know.


I have 50 malbec vines and the clusters are wrong and the leaves are not like that at all. they have a unique curve to them. that leave is not curved at all.


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## balatonwine (Sep 21, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I have 50 malbec vines and the clusters are wrong and the leaves are not like that at all. they have a unique curve to them. that leave is not curved at all.



I know. But as I said, one cluster and one leaf may or may not be "descriptive" so making a call based on that alone may be incorrect.

For example, you may be right about it being Gamay. But the leaf to me does not look fully like Gamay either to me. For one thing, the margins are rounded, rather than pointed as in most Gamay leaves. Little details like that may matter when keying out any plant. So I would like to see more leaves, as vines can grow quite a variation of leaves, and if this one is "descriptive" or not.

Which is why I said, from that photo alone, keying out the grape is problematic. And I am only guessing.


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## CK55 (Sep 21, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> I know. But as I said, one cluster and one leaf may or may not be "descriptive" so making a call based on that alone may be incorrect.
> 
> For example, you may be right about it being Gamay. But the leaf to me does not look fully like Gamay either to me. For one thing, the margins are rounded, rather than pointed as in most Gamay leaves. Little details like that may matter when keying out any plant. So I would like to see more leaves, as vines can grow quite a variation of leaves, and if this one is "descriptive" or not.
> 
> Which is why I said, from that photo alone, keying out the grape is problematic. And I am only guessing.


Agreed, I am thinking that it will probably be french, but it could be something thats rare as here in california in the 1800's grapes were field blended and a lot of rare grapes are mixed in, so davis and other researchers are finding grapes thought to be extinct.

Ive even had a few remarkable discoveries in my 40 year old vines that i thought were completely criolla, ive got one that im 100% sure is zinfandel and another one thats undetermined. 

My grape i thought was white finally made grapes and they turned out to be Flame Tokay.


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## balatonwine (Sep 21, 2018)

CK55 said:


> but it could be something thats rare as here in california



Absolutely. Looking at Gamay as an option (after you suggested it) I just stumbled upon Valdiguié, which I did not even know grew in California until just now.

In fact, I had never heard of this grape at all till today. So many grapes, that can make so many wines. Is one life enough to try them all?


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## CK55 (Sep 21, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Absolutely. Looking at Gamay as an option (after you suggested it) I just stumbled upon Valdiguié, which I did not even know grew in California until just now.
> 
> In fact, I had never heard of this grape at all till today. So many grapes, that can make so many wines. Is one life enough to try them all?


I dont know the answer to that, i hope i get to try most of them im still young lol. Yeah i had read about vald a while back.

Heres some pictures of some of the grapes on my various 40 year old vines. The pics arent the best as my new trellis blocks me from easy access to some of the clusters and thus couldnt get better pics.
https://imgur.com/a/tLiFus5


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## Zintrigue (Sep 21, 2018)

CK55 said:


> It does look like zin, but also Gamay which looks quite similar. If you get a cutting, send it to me, i would like to try and grow it and i would pay the cash to get it tested.



That's a very generous offer. I'll see if I can secure some cuttings down the line. It was kind of a third party transaction. As in my husband, after having mentioned to a few people that I make wine, came home with a sandwich bag of what I pictured above. Haha



balatonwine said:


> Assuming this is Vinifera, Gamay as already suggested is possible. I would also look at Malbec. But from one (unhealthy?) leaf, and one cluster sample only, it may be hard to key out very well. Quite frankly, I am guessing on this one, and don't know.



Oh wow, Malbec looks really close. Good find.



balatonwine said:


> So many grapes, that can make so many wines. Is one life enough to try them all?



You can be darned sure we'll try.


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## Zintrigue (Sep 21, 2018)

So I poked around on leaf identification and came across "rounded lobes" or "crenate margins" to describe the shape. Then promptly came up with two varieties of grape I've never heard of before, but to my untrained eye, seem to match? 

Summer Grape: http://www.namethatplant.net/picpag...km10/jkm100730_219.jpg&plant=1667&photo=12101
And Frost Grape: http://www.namethatplant.net/picpag...km09/jkm090725_062.jpg&plant=1671&photo=10625

Though the names are polar opposite, the leaf shape alone has me wondering. The guy said his great grandma planted the grape on the property. Since these are native to the East coast and much of California's population originally migrated from the East coast, it seems plausible that these could simply be transplanted Eastern natives. I mean everything here is "49er" this and "old western" that, so you never know.

Am I off my rocker?


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## CK55 (Sep 21, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> So I poked around on leaf identification and came across "rounded lobes" or "crenate margins" to describe the shape. Then promptly came up with two varieties of grape I've never heard of before, but to my untrained eye, seem to match?
> 
> Summer Grape: http://www.namethatplant.net/picpag...km10/jkm100730_219.jpg&plant=1667&photo=12101
> And Frost Grape: http://www.namethatplant.net/picpag...km09/jkm090725_062.jpg&plant=1671&photo=10625
> ...


I don't think it's a east coast grape. The Spanish had people in California before the east coast was really populated just saying. So it could be anything but I think it's likely vinifera. If you taste it and it doesn't have a foxy taste then it's probably European.


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## balatonwine (Sep 21, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Am I off my rocker?



Not at all. Which is why I said "assuming this is vinifera". It may not be. May certainly be an American grape, not European. And California had immigrants from all over the place, who brought vines to plant with them. So a lot is possible. But also try the foxy test as CK55 said. Of course, that requires knowing what "foxy" should taste like (not everyone knows offhand).


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## CK55 (Sep 21, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Not at all. Which is why I said "assuming this is vinifera". It may not be. May certainly be an American grape, not European. And California had immigrants from all over the place, who brought vines to plant with them. So a lot is possible. But also try the foxy test as CK55 said. Of course, that requires knowing what "foxy" should taste like (not everyone knows offhand).


You will catch it even if you dont know what it tastes like, its deff a different taste.


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## Zintrigue (Sep 22, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Of course, that requires knowing what "foxy" should taste like (not everyone knows offhand).



Was just gonna ask... if I google this am I going to get something NSFW or is it a well known wine term?  (bearing in mind I've never actually tasted wine grapes before - the shame)


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## sour_grapes (Sep 22, 2018)

You are safe at work!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_labrusca


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## Scott Harbison (Sep 22, 2018)

I certainly don't know my grape leaves....yet....but the closest I've seen is Malbec, but even that doesn't look correct to me. The leaves you have appear more rounded.


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## Zintrigue (Sep 22, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> You are safe at work!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_labrusca



Oh wow. I wish I hadn't popped them in the freezer. Wonder if I can still do the skin test if I thaw a few out. If they are, indeed, foxy grapes then I probably won't want them in my wine.


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## Scott Harbison (Sep 22, 2018)

Would Labrusca be grown in California? That seems very odd to me. This says its mostly an east coast vine.

https://gobotany.newenglandwild.org/species/vitis/labrusca/


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## CK55 (Sep 22, 2018)

Scott Harbison said:


> Would Labrusca be grown in California? That seems very odd to me. This says its mostly an east coast vine.
> 
> https://gobotany.newenglandwild.org/species/vitis/labrusca/


Not usually but California does have a native wild grape. That does grow in that area, my great grandmother who is still alive talked about wine making and grapes that the family used, we know that my 3x great grandfather owned a successful winery from around probably 1860's and that the family kept it in operation we think untill prohibition. She told me that she remembers huge oak vats that the wine would be sort of open fermented in. My grandmother told me that in the angels camp area of California she remembers lots of wild grapes that are native to California and that a lot of abandoned zinfandel vines existed where people used to grow them.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 22, 2018)

Scott Harbison said:


> I certainly don't know my grape leaves....yet....but the closest I've seen is Malbec, but even that doesn't look correct to me. The leaves you have appear more rounded.



Agree. Malbec is the closest match, but not close enough.


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## CK55 (Sep 22, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Agree. Malbec is the closest match, but not close enough.


The grape doesnt look anything like malbec, and im saying this because as i told AJ I have Malbec vines.


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## TOMMARIANI22 (Sep 23, 2018)

There really only two variteys in California that are about 100 years old Zinfandel in the Sierra foothills ... Which lead me to my first thought there are many clonal selections of zin and this could be a certain clonal selection. The other variety which was believed to be gamay but turned out to be abouriou also known as early burgundy. Very similar you. Very unique leaf structure I've never really have seen anything similar to such an oval shape.


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## CK55 (Sep 24, 2018)

TOMMARIANI22 said:


> There really only two variteys in California that are about 100 years old Zinfandel in the Sierra foothills ... Which lead me to my first thought there are many clonal selections of zin and this could be a certain clonal selection. The other variety which was believed to be gamay but turned out to be abouriou also known as early burgundy. Very similar you. Very unique leaf structure I've never really have seen anything similar to such an oval shape.


Zinfandel is pretty much the first real wine grape in california and was in the state as early as 1820. California has a variety of old grapes. And a lot that are nearly extinct or rare.


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## Zintrigue (Sep 24, 2018)

Well, I'm fairly certain this isn't a Zin, just based on the leaf shape and cluster alone. I'd be over the moon if it were. Though it is a prominent grape in this region, you guys aren't off the mark about that. I had the pleasure of tasting a Zin from a vine aged 107 years recently (Ironstone Vineyards, for those interested), and was surprised at how much sweeter it was than the younger 85 year old vine wines.

Anyway, I gave my grapes a taste (which was rough, mind you, since I don't actually like grapes) and was distinctly reminded of the table grapes that my kids eat. Very sweet, very Concord. Welch's grape juice, even. Huge seeds, blech. Didn't detect any muskiness (foxy?), but then again my palate is probably poor or just leaning toward the sweeter flavors. I always pick up oak, leather, berries, and sort of a whiskey sweetness first when diving into a red wine.

Either case, I'm still leaning toward an American variety (Vitis), transplanted most likely. The guy offered to let me pick his whole yard, but I'm worried that once I go to all this trouble then the "foxy" taste will punch me in the face and I'll hate it. I should really get my paws on some actual vinifera and learn the difference.


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## Zintrigue (Sep 24, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Not usually but California does have a native wild grape. That does grow in that area, my great grandmother who is still alive talked about wine making and grapes that the family used, we know that my 3x great grandfather owned a successful winery from around probably 1860's and that the family kept it in operation we think untill prohibition. She told me that she remembers huge oak vats that the wine would be sort of open fermented in. My grandmother told me that in the angels camp area of California she remembers lots of wild grapes that are native to California and that a lot of abandoned zinfandel vines existed where people used to grow them.



Mission wine, perhaps? I've tasted a "mission wine" that was described as fermenting just like that, and boy was it earthy. I am right by Angels Camp. It's a shame that Calaveras county wines don't get mentioned alongside Lodi or Amador.


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## CK55 (Sep 24, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Mission wine, perhaps? I've tasted a "mission wine" that was described as fermenting just like that, and boy was it earthy. I am right by Angels Camp. It's a shame that Calaveras county wines don't get mentioned alongside Lodi or Amador.


That's not mission mission has huge clusters and makes a really low quality wine! It's pretty much good for Brandy. That's all. Criolla Mediana is one of the criolla crosses except unlike the others this one took place in California and inherited much more of the Muscat of Alexandria making it a better grape. I have vines of this. it was known as black prince by my family.


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## Zintrigue (Sep 24, 2018)

CK55 said:


> That's not mission mission has huge clusters and makes a really low quality wine! It's pretty much good for Brandy. That's all. Criolla Mediana is one of the criolla crosses except unlike the others this one took place in California and inherited much more of the Muscat of Alexandria making it a better grape. I have vines of this. it was known as black prince by my family.



Ah, I had mistakenly thought that Mission was used to describe the process, not the grape itself. Live and learn. Does black prince make very good wine?


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## CK55 (Sep 24, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Ah, I had mistakenly thought that Mission was used to describe the process, not the grape itself. Live and learn. Does black prince make very good wine?


I wouldnt know, as currently nobody is making any examples of it, I have some thats nearing being ripe, and im going to make a batch starting tommorrow, of course its going to have a wee bit of flame tokay, and zinfandel and a couple other unknown grapes blended in.

Mission is actually Listan Prieto, a little known spanish wine grape that is pretty much limited to being grown these days on one small island.

Mission was brought over by the spanish to the state of california and used for making wines for religious ceremonies and it was not very good as a table wine, so they made a brandy from it. Mission is the same grape, but it was planted from seeds so enough genetic mutations occured that while its genetically the same in testing the characteristics are far different to listan.

My grape was taking mission and pollinating a cluster with Muscat Of Alexandria, forming a red grape that shares parentage with Muscat, and Muscat helps to bring some acidity and tannins to Mission making a better wine that is drinkable on its own.


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## CK55 (Sep 24, 2018)

Zintrigue said:


> Ah, I had mistakenly thought that Mission was used to describe the process, not the grape itself. Live and learn. Does black prince make very good wine?


https://imgur.com/a/BpKpb4B

heres a grape in that cluster next to the criollas that screams french grape. I dont know what it is its one of the couple of unknown grapes i have.

Heres a picture of crioila
https://imgur.com/a/kaQFjY4


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## Luvthepinot (Oct 2, 2018)

Lots of gsm in foothills . Mourvèdre ??


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## CK55 (Oct 2, 2018)

Luvthepinot said:


> Lots of gsm in foothills . Mourvèdre ??


I've never heard of gsm in the foothills. And I have family who have lived in the area since the 1840's. But it's always possible. I looked at it and went hmm that's a different looking grape. Its $350 to test with Davis so I'm not really going to do it for 2 grapes


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## Luvthepinot (Oct 2, 2018)

If you consider apple hill, placerville and Coloma the Sierra Nevada Foothills then there’s GSM everywhere .


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## Luvthepinot (Oct 3, 2018)

Although the leaves look a little different the grapes look similar to my Mourvèdre I grow in ColomaView attachment 51370


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## Luvthepinot (Oct 3, 2018)

Sorry another attempt at a pic , lol


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## CK55 (Oct 3, 2018)

Luvthepinot said:


> Sorry another attempt at a pic , lol
> View attachment 51372


Nice grapes those also kinda look like Malbec.


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