# My Second Batch....Altered Dragon's Blood.



## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 16, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 16, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 16, 2013)

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## firejohn03 (Nov 16, 2013)

I have had real slow starts to my ferments with DB and SP recipes. I have tweeked every recipe as well. Give it a while it should start soon. Did not see where you added any yeast nutrient or energizer? What yeast did you use. The high acidity of lemon juice can be a real killer to some strains. Pitch some nutrient and energizer and you should get an explosion.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 16, 2013)

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## jamesngalveston (Nov 16, 2013)

your post is a little confusing...all you need for the fruit is a paint strainer bag, purchased at any hardware store for 2.00 for 2 5 gallon.
campden definetly slows down the ferment, and counter acts with pectin enzyme.
simple syrup is not used until it is in secondary are when it is dry.
It would be better to follow directions if you could...


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## dangerdave (Nov 17, 2013)

You definately tweaked the daylights out of that recipe, RMWO! I'd say the acid and the sulfite are slowing your start. It may take a while to get going, or require another yeast application after the sulfite dissipates a bit.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 17, 2013)

I can not understand why so many do not follow the recipe as is...
Variation of fruits i think are great, but they change the fruit, then the chemicals, then add, vanilla,choclate,pomegranite,grape juice,banana
apricots,apple juice,cherry juice,lime lemon,grapefrut,coconut,black tea,green tea,beer,mint,pecans,peanuts,raisins,dates, and on and on and on.
If you make daves dragon blood as his recipe, you can not go wrong....
Period.
If you change the fruit,are ratio great...by why does everyone want to add everything but the kitchen sink...
Sorry for the rant.....


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 17, 2013)

just go buy some fruit punch add vodka, and anything else you want......
then go throw up when its awful....


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## seth8530 (Nov 17, 2013)

I think part of the issue you are having is that most comercial lemon juices already have sulfite in them. Thus when you added more sulfite it is likely giving your yeast a hard time. BTW, what is the SG? I would imagine it is leaning toward the high side. Too much sugar can cause fermentation trouble as well..

I would recomend splash racking the must a few times to try and bind some of those sulfites.


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## dangerdave (Nov 17, 2013)

Good idea, Seth! You need to get some of those sulfites out of there, so you can get that _port_...I mean DB...fermenting.

Hey, wait! A triple berry port might be doable! Hmmm...


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 17, 2013)

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## jamesngalveston (Nov 17, 2013)

triple berry port....done....lol
its great.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 17, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> your post is a little confusing...all you need for the fruit is a paint strainer bag, purchased at any hardware store for 2.00 for 2 5 gallon.
> campden definetly slows down the ferment, and counter acts with pectin enzyme.
> simple syrup is not used until it is in secondary are when it is dry.
> It would be better to follow directions if you could...



It wasn't confusing for others.....



jamesngalveston said:


> just go buy some fruit punch add vodka, and anything else you want......
> then go throw up when its awful....



Are you speaking from experience???



jamesngalveston said:


> I can not understand why so many do not follow the recipe as is...
> Variation of fruits i think are great, but they change the fruit, then the chemicals, then add, vanilla,choclate,pomegranite,grape juice,banana
> apricots,apple juice,cherry juice,lime lemon,grapefrut,coconut,black tea,green tea,beer,mint,pecans,peanuts,raisins,dates, and on and on and on.
> If you make daves dragon blood as his recipe, you can not go wrong....
> ...



I also can't understand why so many people, that are "Experts", have to rant.

Unless, you're bringing something positive and helpful, you're not needed *(NOR WANTED)* here....

Go practice Rant in front of a bathroom mirror and then start a thread on what happens.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 17, 2013)

I agree.
This is not following a recipe, which is proven.
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**I upped the sugar from 20 cups to 30 cups....

**I also upped the recommended lemon juice from 48 to 64 oz.
(It's probably a choice that I made from not wanting anything to go to waste combined with a thought that the extra sugar needs an offset.)

**I downed the the initial water content... recipe calls for something close to 7 gallons, I have close to 4.5 gallons with everything in the carboy.

**I also added 5 Camden Tabs, by mistake...I later realized that DangerDave didn't add them upon initial mixing.

I haven't done the suggested procedures,


I should not have ranted, and I very humbly apoligize.


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## ckvchestnut (Nov 17, 2013)

Wow sounds awesome! I added the other stuff to my batch for 1 reason only: came up short on sugar! I've promised myself to stick strictly to the recipe next time but still use the best value quad berry fruit as that's the only kind I can get at my Walmart.


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## dangerdave (Nov 17, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> triple berry port....done....lol
> its great.


 
You did a fortified port, right James.

I'm planning to do chaptalization on mine. Essentially a Jack Keller/DangerDave Dragon Blood Port variation, like.

You get the idea.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 17, 2013)

yes it was a fortified port...
would be interested to see how yours goes with chaptalization.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 18, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> I ....... apoligize.



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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 18, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 18, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 18, 2013)

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## jamesngalveston (Nov 18, 2013)

what yeast did you use.


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## seth8530 (Nov 18, 2013)

I think he said he use EC1118.. Honestly, I think your sugar is WAY too high. That is high enough to make 20% abv if it goes dry. I would not be surprised if the sugar alone stopped it from taking off. That combined with your relatively high sulfite level will make this a hard one to get turning. I would splas rack a few times and consider adding water to lower the SG...


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 18, 2013)

if you got to the 120 degree range, I would say the yeast is pretty stressed..
you may not get h2s, but after racking a few times, you may get a starch haze...


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## sour_grapes (Nov 18, 2013)

Why not pitch some more yeast? I don't see what it can hurt. 120 F is pretty dang hot.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 18, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## jamesngalveston (Nov 20, 2013)

This is my last suggestion for this batch.
get it out of that carboy, put in bucket, and let it get some oxygen....
It needs some room.....


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## wineforfun (Nov 20, 2013)

If you get this to turn out, please make sure and make another batch exactly as the recipe states. That is what most of us have done, and then we take off and start tweaking it. At least following the original recipe, you will have an idea of what you are shooting for initially. 
I am all for changing it up and most of us do that after our initial DB.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## iVivid (Nov 20, 2013)

You might have a problem with "overflow" soon if it's from fermentation!


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## dangerdave (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm with DJ, although I may be biased. Everyone should try an original recipe.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## iVivid (Nov 20, 2013)

If it's giving off CO2 it would be fermenting!? Yes?


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 20, 2013)

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## Floandgary (Nov 21, 2013)

SO,,,,what exactly are you trying to make???


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 21, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 21, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 21, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 21, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 21, 2013)

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## dangerdave (Nov 22, 2013)

I would really stop consuming hyrdogen peroxide if I were you. I know it's just trace amounts, but I cringe every time I hear someone doing this. The FDA would agree. It reacts with sulfite in wine to produce sulphuric acid, and can damage your wine in many other ways. There are other methods for dealing with these problems that do not cause more problems.

But the decision is strictly up to you. I just cannot imagine myself ever adding peroxide to any of my wines, no matter how bad they got.

Have you done this before with any degree of success? I could be totally misinformed.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

dangerdave said:


> .......... There are other methods for dealing with these problems that do not cause more problems........



What do you recommend for getting rid of too many sulfites?


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## dangerdave (Nov 22, 2013)

Repeated splash racking. Just like the peroxide, you're attempting to "oxidize" the sulfites out of the wine. You can usually smell the sulfites as they come out during racking. That's one of the ways the sulfite protects the wine, by bonding with the oxygen to prevent oxidizing of the wine.

I know you'll make the right choice for you, and I'm sure the small amount of peroxide you are using is negligeable...it just makes me nervous...for you. It's the EMT in me talking.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

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## dangerdave (Nov 22, 2013)

That's very interesting. I would reference the articles I have read regarding the use of peroxide in wine and one of the byproducts, sulphuric acid...but never mind.

You do what you feel is right. You might still get this batch to turn out perfect! Keep at it!


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## vernsgal (Nov 22, 2013)

RhynoMakingWineO said:


> Where's SETH....isn't he a "Nu-clear" Scientist?
> 
> (HaHa.... GeorgeWbush quote..)



ok that was funny


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 22, 2013)

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## vernsgal (Nov 22, 2013)

you are in need of Seth


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## dangerdave (Nov 22, 2013)

The one I have in my files is an article by Ben Rotter on the form and function of Sulphur Dioxide in wine. In the section on SO2 Loss, he mentions the SO2 reacting with hydrogen perodixe to form sulphuric acid, but refers to this as part of the "oxidative protection of SO2".

You can find the article, here: http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm

But like I said, the quantites (which he does not reference) are probably very small, and provide protection to the wine rather than harm to the drinker. This however, is the reaction of SO2 on the naturally occurring tiny amounts of peroxide present in the must. I don't know how much acid is produced when higher concentrations of peroxide are added.

A lot of people have used the peroxide treatment for their wines without incident, but I would still prefer people don't put that stuff in their wine, and I will never use it in mine no matter how bad it gets. But that's me. I don't know enough to tell you what you _must_ do/not do. I'm just telling you what I do/don't do.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 22, 2013)

thats why i drink Luzianne...
matter of fact i think i will start adding it to my wine...
maybe throw in 1/2 tsp of hydrogen peroxide, and then some kind of carbonation and see what happens.
heck you never know..it may be excellent...


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 22, 2013)

good wisdom dave......


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## seth8530 (Nov 22, 2013)

vernsgal said:


> you are in need of Seth



Did someone summon me?! *poof*






RhynoMakingWineO said:


> No, I haven't done this before, with wine.
> 
> I have Oxidized a number of other things, in my work, and some of my hobbies. Because of my understanding "Oxidation", it was an easy "Yes."
> 
> ...



Nahh, engineer in progress not scientist; Keep it straight ( ;


First off, I will give my general thoughts on the issue. As of I do not know for a FACT that adding Hydrogen Peroxide to my wine is safe.. I will not do it nor would I recommend it to anyone else. My gut instinct tells me it would not kill you, but I am still not a fan. 

Something to consider, many chemical reactions do not need energy applied to them for them to go. Take Baking Soda and Vinegar, these guys will react on their own without the addition of energy (heat). This is known as an exothermic reaction. So the point of the story is that it could give off joules of energy instead of requiring energy for all we know.

Me, ( with my rather rusty and rudimentary chemistry skills) could not tell you off the top of my head just what exactly hydrogen peroxide would react with first in the wine. However, the fact that it gives off bubbles tells me that it is indeed reacting and it is causing some sort of chemical change to the wine. Most likely an oxidation reaction or binding with the SO2 in some way. 

My thoughts, if you are using an oxidation reaction to remove so2, why don't you just put oxygen into it? O2 is 100% safe unless breathed in too high of concentrations or applied to a flame.



RhynoMakingWineO said:


> Has anyone ever put just a small "pinch" of "Arm&Hammer Baking Soda" into their Iced Tea?
> 
> It neutralizes some of the Tea's acids and actually makes it taste better. Not all Tea leaves, react the same way.... Lipton likes BakingSoda, but Luzianne doesn't need it.
> 
> ...



Please note that baking soda and Hydrogen Peroxide are rather different. Baking soda is a base while Hydrogen peroxide is an acid and oxidizer.

Anyways, that is my input on the issue. Chemistry is not exactly my field of expertise but I know a little bit about it.


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## roger80465 (Nov 22, 2013)

Ummm, won't hydrogen peroxide turn a red to a white? Just askin'.


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## iVivid (Nov 22, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> My thoughts, if you are using an oxidation reaction to remove so2, why don't you just put oxygen into it?



I thought that when you added Hydrogen Peroxide to water it converted to H2O and Oxygen? Isn't that how it works? We use it a lot over here for a variety of different things; it's a great thing to bath in as a pick-me-up too. We get the food grade one, not the one with yuk preservatives in it. When I purchased it, it was actually suggested to me that you could use it in wine making to sterilise and replace k-meta, but it was mean't to replace it, not use the two together. However, I couldn't ever find any dosages etc so for now I stick to what I know and I really don't believe I've had any issues with k-meta over the years. 

Unfortunately, I've never done chemistry, had to learn some rudiments in a hurry when I started making wine, but I am very careful of things I don't know the reactions to; all I know is baking soda and vinegar are really good to clean your plug holes and septic tank safe


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 22, 2013)

seth...i love you;....nicely said on the post;...


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 22, 2013)

dang vivid...what the heck do you do.


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## iVivid (Nov 22, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> dang vivid...what the heck do you do.



You stick with what you know and make another wine


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## seth8530 (Nov 22, 2013)

iVivid said:


> I thought that when you added Hydrogen Peroxide to water it converted to H2O and Oxygen? Isn't that how it works? We use it a lot over here for a variety of different things; it's a great thing to bath in as a pick-me-up too. We get the food grade one, not the one with yuk preservatives in it. When I purchased it, it was actually suggested to me that you could use it in wine making to sterilise and replace k-meta, but it was mean't to replace it, not use the two together. However, I couldn't ever find any dosages etc so for now I stick to what I know and I really don't believe I've had any issues with k-meta over the years.
> 
> Unfortunately, I've never done chemistry, had to learn some rudiments in a hurry when I started making wine, but I am very careful of things I don't know the reactions to; all I know is baking soda and vinegar are really good to clean your plug holes and septic tank safe



Umm, not sure if hydrogen peroxide reacts with water, but I know that on its own it will break down into Water and Oxygen. I am not really trying to say Hydrogen Peroxide is inherently dangerous, I am just up for using it in ways that I do not understand.



jamesngalveston said:


> seth...i love you;....nicely said on the post;...



Why thank you! I love you too!


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## vernsgal (Nov 23, 2013)

seth8530 said:


> Did someone summon me?! *poof*


 LMAO thanks Seth!


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## Stressbaby (Nov 23, 2013)

RMWO,

Where is this batch, I'm curious? The last update back on page five showed strangely the SG rising from 1.102 after you diluted with water up to 1.116.

I'm concerned about this batch to be honest. You increased the sugar by 50%; increased the lemon juice by 25%; the volume cut from 6g to 4.5g; and you heated it to 108F; you added k meta. I'm just a beginner but it seems like a pretty unfriendly environment for yeast.

I've only made one batch of DB but followed the recipe to the letter and it came out great. We call it the *Hawaiian Punch Wine* at our house. Not the wine for beef tenderloin dinner, but good. Maybe you can save it but you might consider cutting your losses and starting over, following the recipe by the letter. It's popular for a reason, and that is it works.


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 23, 2013)

he removed the fruit, added more yeast, added warm water, and hydrogen peroxide.....
I do not think it is dragon blood any longer.


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## Floandgary (Nov 23, 2013)

All of which takes us back about 50 or so posts.... KISS... Follow known recipes and proceedures (really quite simple) and your label won't have to bear a skull and X-bones!!! LOL


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## vernsgal (Nov 23, 2013)

I am enjoying this. I hope you end up with something that's incredible. Only downfall to that would be, Could you do it again?Lol
When Dave posted his recipe he did say to use,modify or process any way you chose. You've just taken it the farthest so far Lol
Please keep the updates coming!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 23, 2013)

vernsgal said:


> I am enjoying this.



Well, that makes one of us!


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## jamesngalveston (Nov 23, 2013)

lol......paul......yo mama .....


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## iVivid (Nov 23, 2013)

I needed some light laughs today; working hard and now laughing hard!


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> This is my last suggestion for this......



Promises....Promises.....


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

jamesngalveston said:


> dang vivid...what the heck do you do.





iVivid said:


> You stick with what you know and make another wine



Great reply..... I like your sense of humor!


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 23, 2013)

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## dangerdave (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm watching all of this...overwhelmed by a sense of utter amazement.

This could be wine!


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## seth8530 (Nov 24, 2013)

Ack! Quit throwing sulfite into the over sulfited wine! *Runs in Pain*


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 24, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 24, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 24, 2013)

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## seth8530 (Nov 24, 2013)

RhynoMakingWineO said:


> Seth,
> Of all of the people on this forum, I suspected that you would be able to see the actions and reactions, from the HydrogenPeroxide guessing game. I even suspected that you'd be able to confirm my decisions.
> 
> But, maybe I haven't displayed enough evidence, for you to "buy in."
> ...




How did you know too much Hydrogen peroxide was added? Perhaps it was too little? Or too much? Or just right? What evidence do you have that proves it was too much? Adding nutrient to any batch of wine that is fermenting will cause it to foam up due to the addition of nucleation points which allows gas bubbles to form and escape form solution.

I am not sure I know what you are talking about when you describe this


"then made a Management Decision, to add more Sulfites, because TOO much Hydrogen Peroxide was added..... *and that was based off of the reactions of the filtered and racked sample that was in the SG tube.*"


I honestly do not think it is possible to gauge how much peroxide would need to be added to a wine to bind a certain amount of SO2 without first testing for how much SO2 you have.

I point all this out not because I am trying to be a skeptic or devils advocate but, sometimes it is best to let the fermentation just go and do its thing. Ie, in the first place I think the best solution would have been multiple splash racking to bind enough SO2 to allow fermentation to proceed along with lowering the initial gravity.

Also, something else to consider So2 is a natural by product of fermentation thus, I would not feel the need to be dropping any extra in during fermentation in the form of tablets.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 24, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 24, 2013)

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## Fordguy (Nov 24, 2013)

RMWO, I have to say you have my respect.
I have been making wine for a few years now, by no means as knowledgeable as other on this board, but I have read through this thread twice now
And your "never give up" attitude is to be admired.
I am enjoying reading all of this and let me encourage you to "don't give up now". 
So much of this discussion is way over my head, but wow, the stuff your going through and the adding, the measuring etc....buddy, you just need to drink some wine!

Cheers to ya.


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## seth8530 (Nov 24, 2013)

RhynoMakingWineO said:


> I don't KNOW anything...it's all a guess... the pics show and tell enough info for me to make a decision, though. I did read somewhere, that 3 drops per glass was enough to cancel out the Sulfites from that glass. I did some measuring and guessing, and that motivated me to come to my "quantity" for addition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'

I am glad you are trying to learn and your do not give up attitude is a good thing to have but I tend to not like to guess around with my chemicals way too much. But that is just me, and my background has created that kind of disposition in myself.

If this does not turn out I would take it as a live and learn experience ( I have had some pretty rough ones before). It is easy to make more dragon's blood. I would at this point just let the dragon's blood do whatever it is going to do at this point. I myself would be weary of drinking it due to the peroxide in it ( a perhaps illogical fear) but that is just me.


As far as yeast sulfite production, I am pretty sure that the sulfur produced by the wine is of the safe form released by Kmeta just simply misnamed. Ie sulfur=S sulfite =SO2 But people call SO2 generated by yeast as Sulfur=S...

However, I wish you the best of luck and do not get discouraged.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 25, 2013)

Fordguy said:


> RMWO, I have to say you have my respect.
> I have been making wine for a few years now, by no means as knowledgeable as other on this board, but I have read through this thread twice now
> And your "never give up" attitude is to be admired.
> I am enjoying reading all of this and let me encourage you to "don't give up now".
> ...




Thank you.....

You are right, I need a glass or two.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 25, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 26, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Nov 26, 2013)

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## Tess (Dec 1, 2013)

If you dont follow the recipe its not dragons blood, Its something else. I can understand following the recipe the first time and THEN tweaking it to your liking but to say its dragons blood because you included fruit and water and lemon dont make it so. Also, its nothing like Boons Farm! that's my opinion. good luck


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 1, 2013)

Tess said:


> If you dont follow the recipe its not dragons blood, Its something else. I can understand following the recipe the first time and THEN tweaking it to your liking but to say its dragons blood because you included fruit and water and lemon dont make it so. Also, its nothing like Boons Farm! that's my opinion. good luck



Read the title again...... I didn't call it "Dragons Blood."

Also, I didn't compare it to Boones Farm, I said.....



RhynoMakingWineO said:


> .........
> 
> I have read through a number of success stories, of Dragon's Blood. I have never been a big "Fruit Wine" guy, but I remembered the early years of a little Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill, and I thought that the DB sounded good, and easy...........



that's what I said. good luck


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## vernsgal (Dec 1, 2013)

How's the fermenting going? Having you taken any recent reading for SG?


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 1, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 2, 2013)

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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 2, 2013)

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## Julie (Dec 3, 2013)

I deleted the last two posts because RhynoMakingWineO, it is obvious that you were upset by the previous post for you to post what you just did. If you have an problem with someone's post please take it to a pm.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 4, 2013)

Julie said:


> I deleted the last two posts because RhynoMakingWineO, it is obvious that you were upset by the previous post for you to post what you just did. If you have an problem with someone's post please take it to a pm.



Why give an explanation now? 

Either, you or one of the other admins didn't on the first deletions?


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## Winenoob66 (Dec 6, 2013)

dangerdave said:


> You did a fortified port, right James.
> 
> I'm planning to do chaptalization on mine. Essentially a Jack Keller/DangerDave Dragon Blood Port variation, like.
> 
> You get the idea.



I do hope you post a recipe on it when your done Dave


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 7, 2013)

Winenoob66 said:


> I do hope you post a recipe on it when your done Dave



"........ Dave's not here....."

Cheech & Chong quote.....


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## Winenoob66 (Dec 7, 2013)

..........lmao........


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## Julie (Dec 7, 2013)

RhynoMakingWineO said:


> Why give an explanation now?
> 
> Either, you or one of the other admins didn't on the first deletions?



I was not the one who deleted your other post. I know you read the pm I sent you and you should be smart enough to know you are not going to win this argument, stop pushing.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 8, 2013)

Julie said:


> I was not the one who deleted your other post. I know you read the pm I sent you and you should be smart enough to know you are not going to win this argument, stop pushing.



Check the dates and times of the items you speak.

I'm guessing that you have some PrivateMessage vs Post time dyslexia.

Stop pushing what?.... or....What stop pushing?


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## Stressbaby (Dec 8, 2013)

RMWO,
Please be get back to winemaking or else I'm afraid you'll get the banhammer.


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## RhynoMakingWineO (Dec 8, 2013)

Stressbaby said:


> RMWO,
> Please be get back to winemaking or else I'm afraid you'll get the banhammer.



Thanks, Stressbaby.....


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## Julie (Dec 8, 2013)

This thread is closed

RhynoMakingWineo, you go to far.


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