# Flextank



## texaswinemaker

I am considering purchasing a Flextank ECO 30 Maturation Tank. Do any of you have experience with them?

http://www.flextankusa.com/eco-maturation-products-30.php

Thank you!


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## Runningwolf

Tex, I do not have a flex tank however anyone I know or winery that has plastic tanks are all switching over to Stainless Steel. If it's in the budget I would consider it. Kevininpa, Grapeman and a few others on here can give you a better answer.


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## grapeman

I haven't used the Flextanks yet Texaswinemaker, but will be trying them soon. I bought some as aging barrels, also getting the Eco70 Maturation tank. I have stainless and they are nice, but I bought 560 gallons of storage for the price of one 160 gallon tank. Dan is right, it is a budget thing and my budget is ultra-stretched. 

I am seeing very good quality and workmanship in the Flex, but I did not get any bells and whistles. For simple storage I think it will work great, letting a little oxygen in, but no wine evaporating out. Ask me in a year and I can answer better.


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## bruno

I purchased 8 - 80 gallon variable volume tanks 1 year ago. They're great. Not disappointed. I plan on adding more.


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## texaswinemaker

Thank you all for the responses! I really appreciate them. I am making my first big purchase of Cali grapes with the Central Texas Wine Guild and my budget is limited as a result. I'm going to try the Eco for that reason alone plus I have found, not verified, that they are doing well with time. I can keep everyone posted if the interest is there. I just couldn't justify spending the more then double the amount of money considering I'm also building my "home winery" as well! 

Wish me luck and again thank you all for the responses. Definitely keep us posted grapeman!

Bruno, did you get any of the bells and whistles with your tanks?


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## bruno

Just the floating lids.


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## robie

texaswinemaker said:


> Thank you all for the responses! I really appreciate them. I am making my first big purchase of Cali grapes with the Central Texas Wine Guild and my budget is limited as a result. I'm going to try the Eco for that reason alone plus I have found, not verified, that they are doing well with time. I can keep everyone posted if the interest is there. I just couldn't justify spending the more then double the amount of money considering I'm also building my "home winery" as well!
> 
> Wish me luck and again thank you all for the responses. Definitely keep us posted grapeman!
> 
> Bruno, did you get any of the bells and whistles with your tanks?



Yes, keep us posted. Thanks


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## texaswinemaker

I thought I would update this post. 

My 30 gallon FlexTank has been wonderful so far. I did experience one little problem with the front nut that seals spigot opening. I called FlexTank and they immediately sent me another nut to replace the original. 

When I decide I want to expand my mini home winery and vineyard I will probably end up using FlexTank exclusively. They are just too easy to maneuver in my home, empty of course. 

I'll continue to update after the next racking. My Malbec is incredibly happy!


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## Runningwolf

Good news, thanks for the update.


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## windshield_king

*bump*

It's been long time for this thread but had to ask if anyone has had any more experience with Flextank? Looks to be a solid deal for the small vineyard/home winemaker.


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## texaswinemaker

I purchased a thirty gallon flextank and have had a good experience with it. Although you will need to be creative when cleaning it, there are a few hard to reach areas. I would say a pump is necessary with extra hose because of the depth of the tank. Overall I was impressed on how it handled my Malbec. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## UBB

I'm bumping this thread for more updates as these have been on my radar for awhile and now that I'm actually harvesting grapes I'm planning on investing in a couple for next year.


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## geek

I emailed Flextank recently and they also mentioned there's a 15gal tank coming out and available in 2 weeks.

I've been thinking of getting a 23L oak barrel but this Flextank has got me thinking for a while....


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Runningwolf

Why not just get a 15 gallon SS keg for about $30. Other than being fixed capacity, it doesn't get any better than that.


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## ibglowin

Does a SS Keg allow for microxygenation like a FlexTank supposedly does?


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## Runningwolf

It will not but throw a stave in it and nothing evaporates either. There's trade off's. I like the price. I'm thinking about getting a second one.


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## ffemt128

I think a 15 gallon flex tank would be great. I considered this in the past but I don't do 30 gallons of any one type of wine.


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## geek

Runningwolf said:


> It will not but throw a stave in it and nothing evaporates either. There's trade off's. I like the price. I'm thinking about getting a second one.



do you have a FlexTank?


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## Runningwolf

Geek, I do not but I have heard great things about them and would love a couple small ones. It's the price of them though that prevents me from buying any. I am not knocking them at all, just thinking of alternatives.


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## geek

Dan,

I hear you. I will be looking at their release of their smallest 15gal tank coming out soon to check the price...my head was almost dead on with a 23L oak barrel but again this tank got me thinking.....hmmm


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## ibglowin

Bump

Anybody purchase and of the 15G Flextanks? They have caught my eye. I want the Micro Ox!


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## derekjames100

I have one. I do like it but my all in one wine pump doesn't work with it so racking is a pain. Also a slight leak from the spigot. But it is amazing with how little space one can store 15 gallons.


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## geek

derekjames100 said:


> I have one. I do like it but my all in one wine pump doesn't work with it so racking is a pain. Also a slight leak from the spigot. But it is amazing with how little space one can store 15 gallons.




How are you racking?


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## ibglowin

Thats a great question, how do you know where the sediment line is when you can't see it or do you just wait till the wine is clear before long term bulk aging?



geek said:


> How are you racking?


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## vacuumpumpman

derekjames100 said:


> I have one. I do like it but my all in one wine pump doesn't work with it so racking is a pain. Also a slight leak from the spigot. But it is amazing with how little space one can store 15 gallons.




I know some people use the Allinonewinepump to pump into flex tanks - I believe it was commented on the review section.

I would definitely go with a 1/2'' racking cane setup to keep the vacuum lower and the flow more.

Please PM me if you have any questions

JohnT posted this - 
They are a lot more sturdy than you might think. 

I have handled them for over 20 years and have always vacu-racked them. I never once had a problem.
2-11-2014


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## GreginND

I have 4 of the 70 gallon eco tanks. Waiting for my grapes this weekend and will be putting them to use pretty soon.


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## derekjames100

vacuumpumpman said:


> I know some people use the Allinonewinepump to pump into flex tanks - I believe it was commented on the review section.
> 
> I would definitely go with a 1/2'' racking cane setup to keep the vacuum lower and the flow more.
> 
> Please PM me if you have any questions
> 
> JohnT posted this -
> They are a lot more sturdy than you might think.
> 
> I have handled them for over 20 years and have always vacu-racked them. I never once had a problem.
> 2-11-2014




Racking out of the tank into carboys is obviously no problem. Racking back into it carefully using the all in one caused it to implode. I considered using larger tubing but didn't want to ruin the tank given the effort it took to get it back to close to normal.


As far as how I do it-- I rack into glass carboys from the flex.

This makes it easy to see and also you can lift them to rack by gravity back into the flex tank later. Once I get close to the bottom of the flex tank and notice the wine becoming cloudy I stop. The first 2 carboys are clear (10 gallons) and you can split the last 5 gallons into two 3 gallon carboys, the last of which has any sediment that may have been picked up. After a day or so it separates out and you can rack the top layer back into the tank with the other two carboys by gravity.


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## ibglowin

Do they make a floating lid of sorts in case you only have say 14G in a 15G tank? Definitely looking into a couple of these to try out if it can provide the micro oxidation of a barrel.


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## derekjames100

Mine is not variable capacity. I don't believe any of them are


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## geek

ibglowin said:


> Do they make a floating lid of sorts in case you only have say 14G in a 15G tank? Definitely looking into a couple of these to try out if it can provide the micro oxidation of a barrel.



I believe they do have a floating balloon-type.


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## ibglowin

I just emailed them with a few questions including the availability of a floating or balloon lid. Its not a show stopper but sure would be nice to have in case you only had 13 or 14 gallons. The nice part is that there would be no more topping up every two weeks so just check SO2 levels every so often and rack. Trying to find out how long you can store a wine in a 15G Flextank in order to achieve the same amount of micro-oxidation as a small barrel.


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## geek

That would be interesting to know.....they claim is the same process as a wood barrel.


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## derekjames100

ibglowin said:


> I just emailed them with a few questions including the availability of a floating or balloon lid. Its not a show stopper but sure would be nice to have in case you only had 13 or 14 gallons. The nice part is that there would be no more topping up every two weeks so just check SO2 levels every so often and rack. Trying to find out how long you can store a wine in a 15G Flextank in order to achieve the same amount of micro-oxidation as a small barrel.




They don't have variable lids...I tried that a while back. They also said there is a limit as to how long wine should stay in them...i don't remember exactly but it was not as long as I hoped. Let us know what they say


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## stickman

My understanding is they take the surface to volume ratio and then tweak the plastic formulation and wall thickness to achieve an oxygen permeation rate similar to a second year 59 gallon barrel. I'm not sure if they were able to do this with the 15gal model, but that is what they have claimed down to the 30gal model. I too am interested to hear what they say, my guess is there will be considerably less oxygen permeation through the flextank vs. a small 5gal barrel.


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## ibglowin

Well so far not impressed by the response time. LOL Emailed them using their online form yesterday morning and still no response as of this morning. Might be a busy time of year for them. I currently use 23L Vadai's and was looking to give a 15G a try and see how it compares as far as micro ox. I usually leave wines in the barrel for 6 months as that is plenty of micro oxidation then rotate another in keeping the barrel full 365. It would be nice if the Flextank would be slower so they could stay in for a full year, you then could rack back to carboy for another year and then refill with this years wine. Rinse, repeat.


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## geek

They were prompt in responding to my email a while back.
I agree they may be really busy as other wine equipment manufacturers. As a matter of fact, I emailed Lafitte about the corks last week (TWICE) and yet no response.

Let us know what you find out from FlexTank. I think you may want to give them a call.


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## ibglowin

I suspect Lafitte is busy as well. I believe I called them and immediately got transferred to a sales rep who helped me start the ball rolling by sending out a huge box of cork examples for my inspection. Like about 10 each of everything they offered. NOTE: the corks are not waxed so you can't insert them/use them, they are just to show the differences in cork quality and its difficult to (accurately) judge with only a single sample as you might get a good one or not so good one.


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## Boatboy24

geek said:


> They were prompt in responding to my email a while back.
> I agree they may be really busy as other wine equipment manufacturers. As a matter of fact, I emailed Lafitte about the corks last week (TWICE) and yet no response.
> 
> Let us know what you find out from FlexTank. I think you may want to give them a call.



I had response from Lafitte within an hour or two. (from an email inquiry)


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## ibglowin

I emailed the Flextank VP of Operations this AM and got a quick response back. Seems my online form submission went into the round filing cabinet.

_"Our EM15, 15 gallon Eco maturation tank, has the O2 permeation of a second use / second year barrel. They are engineered for a permeation rate of 17mg / liter / year with an average cellar temperature of 55 F. They do need to be kept fully topped off unless you keep the head space regularly topped off with an inert gas such as Argon or Nitrogen. They are easy to clean compared to an oak barrel with the 6'' top opening and staining can be removed quite easily with an overnight soak in a 2% caustic soda. Aging time in the tank is equal to or less than the barrel."

Like Peyton Manning says in that new Nationwide commercial....... "I like it" LOL

Going to spring for a 15G to try out this year and if it works as advertised get another next year. Ground shipping was a little pricy for a "plastic jug". $49 from the West coast to the soon to be West coast. LOL Lets get this party started!
_


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## geek

I was under the impression that their advertised price includes shipping?


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## ibglowin

No they do not in fact you are supposed to email or call for a shipping quote.


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## geek

Actually, the items on the page say shipping included, but you have to pick the $197 option.


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## ibglowin

LOL that sounds kinda like shipping is *not included* if you ask me!


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## geek

Yeah, but it says it includes some French oak, not sure what's that.


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## shoebiedoo

So Mike, did you say you had to commit to buying before they told you the shipping cost? I've been thinking of buying 3 of them but high shipping wouldn't make it cost effective.


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## ibglowin

No I was emailing back and forth with their person (a lady) who handles the orders. Sounds like they may have a "flat" rate shipping cost of $49 to where ever.


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## Steve_M

Mike,
What wine are you planning on putting into this Flextank this year? Will you have enough to top up or will you go with adding an inert gas?

Steve


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## ibglowin

I currently have 75 gallons from this year. I have 4 barrels (23L) that I would normally run ~48G through in a year (6 months in a barrel) That leaves me ~27G to run through a Flextank I have a lot of options especially this year so its a great time for me to try this out and perhaps begin phasing out barrels etc. if I like the outcome.


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## ibglowin

Placed the order yesterday should see it late next week sometime. They do have a "flat rate" shipping rate with UPS so if your on the east coast your getting a better deal than someone on the west coast for sure. She said she could see if the USPS might be cheaper but I declined to have it shipped by them......

I am getting the 15G tank and they are throwing in some free Winestix. You can have either American or French oak, your choice.


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## Steve_M

Tempting. What I have in carboys right now are a total of 11 gallons of Cab/Merlot blend and 13 gallons of OVZ. Once I rack though those totals would be less obviously. So if I decide on the 15 gallon I would need to use inert gas. Or just simply forgo this year. Plan for next year. 
Either way I am going to follow your progress Mike. 

Thanks
Steve


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## ibglowin

I made a very nice blend in 2013 that I just bottled this summer. 50% Zin, 25% Cab Sauvignon, 25% Merlot. You could always come up with a blend of your wines and then blend up enough now for a 15G Flextank. Then either rack down what's left to smaller vessels or make another blend out of what you have left. Blends make a better wine unless your buying top quality grapes IMHO.


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## Steve_M

Mike,
That is a great idea!
As it stands right now, the Cab/Merlot blend is already set, the OVZ is on it's own right now.
So, yes I could add some of the Cab/Merlot to it age this in the FlexTank.
Once ML is complete on these will rack and determine how much I would need to add and look at ordering one.

Steve


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## ibglowin

Take the 13 gallons of Zin, add 2 gallons of cab/merlot ------> Flextank

Take remaining 9 gallons of cab/merlot, rack down to 6G carboy and a 3G carboy....... DONE!


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## ibglowin

*Flextank Unboxing Photos!*

Hey I figure they do it for new iPhones……. 

Finally arrived last night at 8:30PM, thats the latest UPS delivery I have ever had outside of Xmas week. Horribly slow shipping (6 days) from only 1200 miles away. Oh well. 

Enjoy!


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## geek

It is CUTE...!!!!!!


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## Steve_M

Mike,
Your order included the 15 gallon, bung airlock and valve? Or purchased separately?
I need to get on ball in ordering, I'm guessing the Zinfandel that we will age in should be done with ML in 1-3 weeks

Steve


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## ibglowin

Its all included at that price. It even came "pre" wrapped with teflon tape. LOL


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## geek

How tall is the tank?
It would be nice if it had handles on the side to lift and carry around.


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## ibglowin

I am not at home at the moment but its a little taller and a little wider than a standard 6G carboy. With wine weighing ~8lbs/G its going to weigh over 120lbs once full. I don't think you want to be picking that thing up by any handle or otherwise once its full.


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## Boatboy24

Congratulations on your new addition!!!


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## shoebiedoo

Mine just showed up  I'm jus trying to figure out when, exactly, I should start using them. After secondary or after oaking?. I'm stuck with using oak cubes for now. It's all I have. A L so, how often do you planning on taking racking once the when is I it? Do you have to rack at all?


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## ibglowin

I got mine all cleaned up and rinsed out today (Oxyclean). I plan on filling mine up this weekend. I am in the middle of MLF so I have 2 6G carboys plus a 3G carboy I will blend together for 15G's. They sent me a Winestix for 15G of wine and I will toss that in right now. I will probably rack once MLF is complete or maybe not, I might just sulfite and let it sit on the fines for 6 months then rack to carboy at some point. Still trying to figure what timelines and schedule. I know one things for sure, You can not lift that thing once it is FULL. Beyond my capabilities for sure so you better have it where you want it when you fill it!


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## grapeman

So why can't you lift it Mike? 15 gallons is only 120 pounds! Now a 70 gallon one is a bit much to lift, so you just move it a little at a time by turning it. That one is almost 600 pounds. My 200 gallon ones stay where I fill them at 1600 plus pounds..........


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## ibglowin

LOL I am not gonna try that one. Old(er) age and wisdom has its rewards. I can lift 100b sack of sand but I would not feel comfortable lifting this. No handles and it would just be an accident waiting to happen! LOL


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## shoebiedoo

ibglowin said:


> I got mine all cleaned up and rinsed out today (Oxyclean). I plan on filling mine up this weekend. I am in the middle of MLF so I have 2 6G carboys plus a 3G carboy I will blend together for 15G's. They sent me a Winestix for 15G of wine and I will toss that in right now. I will probably rack once MLF is complete or maybe not, I might just sulfite and let it sit on the fines for 6 months then rack to carboy at some point. Still trying to figure what timelines and schedule. I know one things for sure, You can not lift that thing once it is FULL. Beyond my capabilities for sure so you better have it where you want it when you fill it!




My plan was to bulk age in the flextank until the next year's must comes. I'm thinking it's probably best to put into carboys for secondary for sure. Still thinking about what to "oak" it in. At this point I'm probably going to do it in the flextank and rack it after that. My guess is, I really won't have to rack it after that. My guess is, it would be in the flextank another 7 to 8 months after that. I'm also thinking I wouldn't have to add a clearing agent "super klear" on that schedule. Other option would be to rack to carboy after oaking, add super kleer and let sit in cayboy, then back to the flextank... :>:> I'm probably over thinking this 
One thing is for sure. I will NOT be lifting these! I'm with you mike


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## ibglowin

What are you putting into the Flextank? Fresh grape wine or kit wine? Either way you should not need any fining agents with that length of time. You will hvve to watch your SO2 levels as these are designed to allow Oxygen in like a barrel.


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## shoebiedoo

I'm using juice. Can't do grapes because of my schedule. And yeah I *** u med I would have to be aware of S02 levels. That's actually what drew me to buying these. Can't wait to put them to use


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## ibglowin

Well the tank is full! 60% Zinfandel, 30% Cab Sauv, 10% Petit Sirah blend. Added in the French oak Winestix. Weighed it out at 77gms and it was labeled for 15G. That is only 3oz and doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough oak. Oh well, I plan on blending in some American oak as well so that will leave room for that as well down the road. No leaks!


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## stickman

That 15 looks nice, I've got 3 of the 30's, but still have use for a 15. I saw those wine sticks and also wondered how only one stick could possibly provide enough oak. I've been using oak fan systems from Oak Solutions Group for $58 plus shipping you get 15 staves, 3/8"x2.5"x36"long. The mfg recommends about 4 for a 30 gallon tank to get new oak equivalence, I have used 5 on heavy Cab without problems. You would just cut them in half for the 15g tank.

http://www.oaksolutionsgroup.com/shop-full


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## Boatboy24

I know you're getting the micro-ox from these, but is there any evaporation taking place? In other words, do they need to be topped up, or just fill it and forget it?


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## Steve_M

Jim,
My understanding is that it is a fill it forget it.
No topping off, just monitor SO2. I hope to be ordering a 15gal one myself in the next couple of weeks.

Steve


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## stickman

Depending on how much wood you start with, the level does drop a little over the first month or so.


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## ibglowin

FYI Mine only took about ~14.5G to fill within a couple inches of the top. I dumped two of the 23L Italian carboys in then only ~2G from a 3G carboy. 

Anybody ever tried to pull a vacuum on one of these? I wonder if the walls would be stiff enough to do a vacuum transfer.


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## ibglowin

Thanks for that link, looks like those come connected together. 

Do you just cut the stainless steel clip in order to separate them?





stickman said:


> That 15 looks nice, I've got 3 of the 30's, but still have use for a 15. I saw those wine sticks and also wondered how only one stick could possibly provide enough oak. I've been using oak fan systems from Oak Solutions Group for $58 plus shipping you get 15 staves, 3/8"x2.5"x36"long. The mfg recommends about 4 for a 30 gallon tank to get new oak equivalence, I have used 5 on heavy Cab without problems. You would just cut them in half for the 15g tank.
> 
> http://www.oaksolutionsgroup.com/shop-full


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## ibglowin

@stickman

Does your lid on the 30G have the green insert like the pic of the 15G I posted? I just screwed mine in tight but am wondering if it needs a wrap or two of teflon tape. The big white lid has a rubber seal at the bottom, everything looks looks airtight but the green screw-in insert.


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## stickman

The fan system has a stainless wire that can be opened easily with pliers.

Flex tank changed the bung over the past several years, it was originally a standard white polyethylene plastic 2" drum bung with a flat gasket, they since changed to the green one which is a 20% glass filled polypropylene that should have an EPDM O-ring, unless they have changed it again. I switched all of my older bungs to the green one with the O-ring. As long as the bung screws in far enough to allow the O-ring to contact the sealing face, there should be no need for Teflon tape.

Did you have to remove the knockout in the bung to use the airlock or did it come already open?

These tanks are not designed for vacuum or pressure transfer, I've never tried vacuum, but I'm certain it would collapse. I did a pressure transfer to another flex tank side by side using argon once, I was very careful and it worked, but I was nervous, I wouldn't do it again. I use a pump to deliver the wine into the tank on a high shelf, I can then use gravity for the following transfer.


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## ibglowin

Here is a closeup of the green insert. It has a threaded opening in the middle that I stuck the supplied airlock and rubber stopper into, but the outside of the green insert is just threaded, no rubber seal whatsoever, I will pull it back out just to double check today but I don't think there was any rubber gasket anywhere on the green insert thus my thought of using a wrap of teflon for added sealing there.









stickman said:


> Flex tank changed the bung over the past several years, it was originally a standard white polyethylene plastic 2" drum bung with a flat gasket, they since changed to the green one which is a 20% glass filled polypropylene that should have an EPDM O-ring, unless they have changed it again. I switched all of my older bungs to the green one with the O-ring. As long as the bung screws in far enough to allow the O-ring to contact the sealing face, there should be no need for Teflon tape.
> 
> Did you have to remove the knockout in the bung to use the airlock or did it come already open?


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## stickman

Here is a shot of the old white and new green bungs, they both have gaskets, the white one is a little more difficult to see as it is a flat white gasket. I would expect to use a gasket unless Flextank has changed the design again, you may have to put in a call to find out.


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## ibglowin

Thanks, Stick, 

I will double check and give them a call to see if it got left out by accident.


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## ibglowin

Went home for lunch an low and behold there is a small black o-ring on the underside. Blended in so well in low light that I didn't even see it or feel it when tightening the insert. Looks to be all sealed up!


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## Boatboy24

@ibglowin:

Did you ever test a vacuum on this?


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## ibglowin

No need. I bought a $69 diaphragm pump off Amazon so now I can pump into them. I received my second 15G Flextank last week!


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## ffemt128

ibglowin said:


> No need. I bought a $69 diaphragm pump off Amazon so now I can pump into them. I received my second 15G Flextank last week!


 

I'm guessing you like the flex tank? I was considering one of these as well but never really looked into it much since I don't do a lot of a single type of wine.


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## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> No need. I bought a $69 diaphragm pump off Amazon so now I can pump into them. I received my second 15G Flextank last week!



Linky please.


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## ibglowin

Well if you know enough about what works blending wise you can ferment separately then blend your wine(s) into the Flextank for long term bulk aging.

That is what I did with my first one. I blended 9G Zin with 6G of Cab Sauv/ Petit Syrah mix.

The second one I got just last week will take all of my Cab Sauv for this year (~15G) used 3 different yeast and always blend back together anyway so why not now after MLF is finished.

The really NICE thing is you can empty them and clean em up and store them without worry unlike a barrel that is a PITA to store dry for any length of time.



ffemt128 said:


> I'm guessing you like the flex tank? I was considering one of these as well but never really looked into it much since I don't do a lot of a single type of wine.


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## ibglowin

Boatboy24 said:


> Linky please.



It was all in the racking pump thread from a few weeks ago.

I ordered a Shurflo Pump

as well as an Inline Strainer

and a couple of Hose Barb Fittings

Go to hardware store and pick up a grounded light switch, switch box and switch cover and wire it all up to a 3 pronged cord (unused PC cord) and you are ready to pump 3G's a minute with that bad boy!


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## jhawk

Mike
I bought the same pump set up a couple weeks ago and love it. I racked 200 gallons the other night and saved so much time. Wish I bought it years ago.


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## grapeman

ibglowin said:


> FYI Mine only took about ~14.5G to fill within a couple inches of the top. I dumped two of the 23L Italian carboys in then only ~2G from a 3G carboy.
> 
> Anybody ever tried to pull a vacuum on one of these? I wonder if the walls would be stiff enough to do a vacuum transfer.


 
This comment is a bit late but that volume is expected if you figure the Italian carboys are 6 gallons so 2 times six plus a 3 should be perfect, but..... The old Mexican ones were 6 gallons even, while the newer Italian ones are closer to 6 and a half gallons. Brewcraft even lists the newer carboys as 6 1/2 gallons. If I bottle from an old carboy I get about 30 bottles, if I use a newer carboy I get a bit over 32 bottles. https://shop.brewcraftusa.com/en/wi...glass-carboy-small-mouth-6-12-gallon-1388-1-1

Any way you look at it, the 15 gallon size is a nice addition for you smaller winemakers. I may even get a few myself for use in the winery. It would be kind of like having several size carboys and gallon jugs for the bits extra.


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## ibglowin

I must have "smaller eyetalians" LOL. I get 31 bottles if full from one of my 6G carboys. That works out to 31x750=23.25L = 6.14G ea. I was able to get (2) x 6.14 = 12.28G plus I added 2G out of a 3G Carboy and have 1G left (transferred excess to 1G jug) so now we are looking at 12.28 +2G = 14.28G and it is FILLED to the neck line to within about 3" of the bottom of the airlock They are advertised as being 15.2G so somewhere I am still missing 0.92G of capacity!

Perhaps its the altitude here!


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## stickman

The volume will increase over time as the tank wall starts to relax.


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## Steve_M

@ibglowin or @stickman,
What are you experiencing with Flextamks and SO2 additions?

Steve


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## ibglowin

I have not made any yet. Only been in around 3mo one one and 1mo on the other.


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## stickman

I've been making primarily Bordeaux blends from grapes, after pressing I rack the wine twice over a period of three days, then add the ML culture and oak with the wine in the 30gal Flextank. I'm using 4 French oak staves, 2.5" x 3/8" x 36" long. After ML completion, I usually rack and put back into the tank, add sulfite and test a couple of times during the first week and add more as needed, as expected, significant sulfite binding occurs with the first addition after ML. I usually rack again in a month and see 15 to 20ppm binding/loss. Once the wine is several months old and somewhat stable, I've been seeing roughly 5ppm loss per month, but I don't have a lot of confidence (which is why I test) as there can be a lot of variation depending on how the wine is handled, bacterial load, as well as the amount of oak present. That's why I provided the background handling information above, so you have something for comparison as I assume everyone does things a little differently. I have never run any batches without oak, so I don't know what the expected loss would be in the tank without the staves.


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## NCWC

Bump
I am considering using flextanks instead of spending $2500 on a 800 and 600 L stainless steel floating top drums
any comments


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## NorCal

Steve_M said:


> @ibglowin or @stickman,
> 
> What are you experiencing with Flextamks and SO2 additions?
> 
> 
> 
> Steve




My flex is 1/2 the SO2 addition to my barrel and twice the amount as a glass Carboy.


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## NorCal

Steve_M said:


> @ibglowin or @stickman,
> 
> What are you experiencing with Flextamks and SO2 additions?
> 
> 
> 
> Steve




My flex is 1/2 the SO2 addition to my barrel and twice the amount as a glass Carboy.


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## shoebiedoo

Runningwolf said:


> Why not just get a 15 gallon SS keg for about $30. Other than being fixed capacity, it doesn't get any better than that.



Dan, I'm assuming you're referring to Corny kegs? If you, will wine Mature at all in one? the use of an Oak stick intrigued me I would love nothing better then to keg all my reds but I not at the sacrifice of aging. I know there's not micro-oxygenation going on but if it matures at all that could be a benefit.

thanks

Shoe


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## fafrd

stickman said:


> I've been making primarily Bordeaux blends from grapes, after pressing I rack the wine twice over a period of three days, then add the ML culture and oak with the wine in the 30gal Flextank. I'm using 4 French oak staves, 2.5" x 3/8" x 36" long. After ML completion, I usually rack and put back into the tank, add sulfite and test a couple of times during the first week and add more as needed, as expected, significant sulfite binding occurs with the first addition after ML. I usually rack again in a month and see 15 to 20ppm binding/loss. Once the wine is several months old and somewhat stable, I've been seeing roughly 5ppm loss per month, but I don't have a lot of confidence (which is why I test) as there can be a lot of variation depending on how the wine is handled, bacterial load, as well as the amount of oak present. That's why I provided the background handling information above, so you have something for comparison as I assume everyone does things a little differently. I have never run any batches without oak, so I don't know what the expected loss would be in the tank without the staves.



I'm considering using Flex Tanks and am confused whether I'm better off planning to size the tank for my smallest batch size (meaning always topped-off) or my largest batch size (meaning always some headspace).

My batch size is around 40 gal, so deciding between the 30 gal and 50 gal Flex Tanks. If I go for the larger tank, I'l plan to use the Skin and flush the headspace with Argon, CO2, or BeerGas (Nitrogen + CO2).

Appreciate any advice from those who have used these Flex Tanlks as to whether one option is far better than the other.

Also, if anyone has experience or advice on the thinner/faster tanks versus the thicker/slower tanks, that would be appreciated as well. I'm leaning towards the thinner/faster tanks and considering maturation w/oxygenation periods of 6-18 mos.


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## stickman

I have not used the skins, my preference is to have the tank topped up to the bung. The tank material is permeable so headspace purging would need to be frequent, especially as the wine gets older than 6 months, it gets more sensitive to oxygen as it ages. My tanks are all considered the faster maturation type, and they seem to work well for heavy reds, I haven't aged anything in the tank more than 12 to 14 months, but that doesn't mean you can't go longer, I try to free up tank space for the next season.


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## GreginND

A friend of mine with a winery has some of the flex tanks with the wide lids. He uses them as variable capacity flex tanks using a standard steel flex tank lid inside it. I don't remember what sizes he has. But it seems to work pretty well.


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## fafrd

stickman said:


> I have not used the skins, my preference is to have the tank topped up to the bung. The tank material is permeable so headspace purging would need to be frequent, especially as the wine gets older than 6 months, it gets more sensitive to oxygen as it ages. My tanks are all considered the faster maturation type, and they seem to work well for heavy reds, I haven't aged anything in the tank more than 12 to 14 months, but that doesn't mean you can't go longer, I try to free up tank space for the next season.



Thanks. I spoke to Flextank and they pretty much said the same thing. Better to fill the tank (even if using skins), need to purge the headspace with inert gas if not, and only about 10% of customers purchase the skins...

So I guess what I'm thinking is going with the smaller 30 g tank and managing the excess in carboys.

Are you noticing the effects of the flex tanks micro oxygenation compared to aging in stainless or glass? What size Flextank are you using?


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## fafrd

GreginND said:


> A friend of mine with a winery has some of the flex tanks with the wide lids. He uses them as variable capacity flex tanks using a standard steel flex tank lid inside it. I don't remember what sizes he has. But it seems to work pretty well.



The 'skins' are made of flexible plastic, is this what you mean by 'standard steel flex tank lid inside it'?

Do you know the minimum fill factor he uses (3/4, 2/3, 1/2, etc)? And how often he purges the headspace?


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## GreginND

fafrd said:


> The 'skins' are made of flexible plastic, is this what you mean by 'standard steel flex tank lid inside it'?
> 
> Do you know the minimum fill factor he uses (3/4, 2/3, 1/2, etc)? And how often he purges the headspace?



Sorry, I meant to say VC tank, not flex tank. No, he uses a lid for a stainless steel variable capacity tank. There is no head space to purge.


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## fafrd

GreginND said:


> Sorry, I meant to say VC tank, not flex tank. No, he uses a lid for a stainless steel variable capacity tank. There is no head space to purge.



Got it.

Does he do anything with inert gas to prevent air getting in through the airlock due to temperature fluctuations. I see that MoreWine! sells some kind of rig for the Speidel VC tanks and wonder if that is really necessary.

Also, does he bottle straight out of the VC tank or do any additional maturation such as in oak barrels first?


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## stickman

I have 3 of the 30gal tanks, all 3 are full at the moment. I sometimes find that the same wine in a glass carboy may be a bit more fruit forward, but more simple, less length on the finish, possibly less interesting depending on your taste. I usually do a blend after the aging period and then bottle. One of the problems of comparison is the type of oak used, I use large tank staves in the Flex, and often use cubes in the glass carboys, so there is always an expected difference.


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## fafrd

stickman said:


> I have 3 of the 30gal tanks, all 3 are full at the moment. I sometimes find that the same wine in a glass carboy may be a bit more fruit forward, but more simple, less length on the finish, possibly less interesting depending on your taste. I usually do a blend after the aging period and then bottle. One of the problems of comparison is the type of oak used, I use large tank staves in the Flex, and often use cubes in the glass carboys, so there is always an expected difference.



Thanks. So your batches are always greater than 30 gal and you keep your flex tanks filled and the excess in carboys, right?

Blending is an interesting idea.

How long do you typically age robust reds in your Flex tanks?

And as far as oak, what is the difference you detect between staves and cubes?

Do you remove the staves once desired oakiness is achieved? And as far as cubes/carboys, do you rack off the cubes once target oak is achieved or leave them in through maturation?

Anyway, your experience is a helpful confirmation that the mixroxgenation properties of the Flex Tabks does impact the wine maturity/complexity.


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## stickman

I always have some excess wine in carboys, sometimes the carboy survives until the end of aging, other times I'll bottle the carboy early and use for top up after tasting and testing etc.

Most of my heavy reds age in the tank between 6 and 12 months, I don't have any hard rules, I taste along the way and try to bottle once the wine softens a bit, but still has enough of an edge to allow aromatics to recover in the bottle.

I haven't done any controlled experiments to be able to say what the difference is between staves and cubes, my staves have always been from a different manufacturer than the cubes, the wood source, toast levels, and toasting methods, are different. I think that is part of the fun. As I indicated above, I can say the wine aged in the Flex tank with the staves had a longer finish and more complexity, but is it from the tank or from the staves or a combination of the two, I don't really know.

So far I have not removed the oak staves due to reaching a target, they usually stay in until the end. With cubes I discard them during racking if I feel they have been extracted, if the racked wine needs more oak I'll add more cubes.


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## Stevelaz

Them flex tanks are pretty interesting. I was just looking at one of these barrels for primary and still using demijohn/carboys for bulk aging. This is a 30 gallon.


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## fafrd

Stevelaz said:


> Them flex tanks are pretty interesting. I was just looking at one of these barrels for primary and still using demijohn/carboys for bulk aging. This is a 30 gallon.



I used a 55 gallon barrel like that for primary of about 450 lbs. it worked well.

I also used that barrel for 48 hours after press with the lid sealed and with an airlock. Tail-end of primary fermentation was ongoing along with MLF so airlock was bubbling and don't detect of oxidation despite the large surface area of the headspace.

I then tacked off of the gross lees into Carboys and MLF continued to completion.

Those blue barrels are waaaay less expensive than flex tanks but I have two concerns about using them for maturation:

1/ The large surface area of any headspace means they basically need to be maintained completely full (above the brim) and I'm not sure how that will behave in the face of temperature fluctuations.

2/ Flextanks have supposedly been sized to match the Microoxidation levels of 2-year-old oak barrels, but I have no idea what level of micro these will provide except that it will increase with smaller barrel sizes.

I suppose it is really a question for mother thread, but I'd be interested in anyone who has experience with maturation in these blue plastic barrels - is that a viable option?

Also, for anyone with a 30 gallon Flextank, I'd appreciate a swag on sidewall thickness to hazard a guess as to whether a 30-gallon blue barrel will mature faster or slower as far as Microoxidation rate...


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## Stevelaz

Yes, there is no way i would use that barrel for bulk storage, only for primary. Last year i borrowed one and put 18 gallons of Chilean juice in it. When it got to about 1.000 i put the lid on with an airlock. The lid does seal air tight, i had nice action in airlock. Then racked into demijohn and carboy a few days later. I really liked doing the primary in one big batch instead of different buckets. This batch really came out good!


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## fafrd

Stevelaz said:


> Yes, *there is no way i would use that barrel for bulk storage*, only for primary. Last year i borrowed one and put 18 gallons of Chilean juice in it. When it got to about 1.000 i put the lid on with an airlock. The lid does seal air tight, i had nice action in airlock. Then racked into demijohn and carboy a few days later. I really liked doing the primary in one big batch instead of different buckets. This batch really came out good!



What would be your primary concern with maturation in one of those sealed blue barrels, the speed of Microoxidation or something else?

I spoke to the CEO of Flextank and was told that the thickness of the 50-gallon tank is about 6mm (and about 7mm for the 30-gallon and 8mm for the 15-gallon).

The thickness of those 55-gallon blue barrels is 2.2mm, meaning they should let through oxygen at about 3.6x the rate of a flex tank. 

A 15-gallon neutral oak barrel will also introduce oxygen at a faster rate than a 60-gallon oak barrel (about 2.5x based on surface/volume ratio), so are there concerns with fast aging in HDCP barrels that go beyond similar concerns in small neutral oak barrels?


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## Stevelaz

Yes oxidation . Wouldn't it not be good to bulk age in that blue barrel due to the head space issue? Im only doing 18 gallons, maybe 24 this year. Even if it was filled close to the top wouldn't there be to much surface area it risk it? However, the friend i borrowed it from last year told me he did a white in it from start to finish. I just didnt think that was a good idea..


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## fafrd

Stevelaz said:


> Yes oxidation . Wouldn't it not be good to bulk age in that blue barrel due to the head space issue? Im only doing 18 gallons, maybe 24 this year. *Even if it was filled close to the top wouldn't there be to much surface area it risk it? *However, the friend i borrowed it from last year told me he did a white in it from start to finish. I just didnt think that was a good idea..



got it, thanks. Yes, the barrel would need to be filled so that the wine is touching the white domed lid and the seal would need to keep that wine above the brim from leaking. You would have to top off through the bung hole kind of like you would in an Oak Barrel.

So there may be mechanical/liquid concerns to get the headspace volume and surface down to where it would be in a Flex Tank or other aging vessel, but as far as the faster microxidation trough the thinner sidewalls, I can't think of a reason why it should be worse than aging in a small 15 or 7.5 gallon oak barrel (which is also not advised and more complex to manage, but many winemakers do so anyway).

How did your freind manage headspace in the barrel? How topped-up did he keep it? Up into contact with the lid or below the brim?


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## Stevelaz

_How did your freind manage headspace in the barrel? How topped-up did he keep it? Up into contact with the lid or below the brim?
_

I have no clue, i will have to ask him if i see him...


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## verdot

fafrd said:


> How did your freind manage headspace in the barrel? How topped-up did he keep it? Up into contact with the lid or below the brim?



As with barrels, you can drop in any kind of santized non permeable object in to elevate the fluid level. Glass marbles in a mesh bag would work nicely. Flushing the top with argon/co2 would be a solution, as well.


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