# Stuck fermentation update



## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

Due to a record breaking heatwave, my fermentation stopped at 1004/1003. BM 4x4 is heat toleran to 82 - never paid attention to these facts b/c I live in Canada and I cannot recall temps in the 90s for 7 straight days...it hit 94 twice the past few days..

So forum member recommended EC118 along with a nutrient.. Got that today and i am going to pitch it to see if I can re-start...

A few questions:

1. What would happen if I just pressed it at its current SG? (other than being a little sweet?)

2. If I do pitch, should I follow the recommendations on the package for quantity or should I put less due to the fact that it is almost complete?

3. How long should this take given temps are still warm?

4. Will this change my wine's taste? I selected BM4x4 for a reason... EC118 is used for white wines and sparkling wines, from my understanding... I made a sangiovese...

5. Any other tips/recommendations before I do this?

thanks!!


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## cmason1957 (Sep 26, 2017)

Taste won't be effected at all. EC1118 won't be doing that much work for you. Pitch the whole thing. Well actually what I would do is get it started in a gallon container, let it go for 15-30 minutes, add about the same amount of your wine to it. wait about 30 minutes, add the amount you now have in your container, wait. repeat, doubling the amount you put in each time, until you fill the gallon, then pitch that into your must. It will give the yeast the best chance of being acclimated and finishing up for you.

hard to say how much longer your ferment will take, I would guess a day or so. You can press before you do all this, if you wish, but I would try to get it to finish fermenting, so you don't have to worry about it firing back up later, when you move this to a cooler environment.


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## salcoco (Sep 26, 2017)

I would press the grape must now. the additional oxygen from the pressing may restart the fermentation on its own.
at the point you are now it will be difficult to restart a fermentation. if it does not start after pressing allowing a few days, then hydrate the yeast, once bubbling. add one cup of pressed wine , once it is bubbling add two cups, continue to do so doubling the quantity of each time the fermentation is evident until all is fermenting.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 26, 2017)

Siwash, I was just about to post something very similar, referencing your wine as well. And attempting to accomplish 3 things:
1. Figure out why it happened (I'm not sold on the temps) 
2. How to keep it from happening again
3. What to do moving forward

Instead I'll just piggyback your thread. 

I just experienced this for the 1st time on 2 different primaries. One majority Sangiovese blend from grapes (BM 4x4) and one Grenache blend juice pail (natural). 
Temps got to mid 80s which to me seems pretty low to stall out a fermentation already going strong. But I also had high pHs at 3.9 and 4.0. 
I'm pressed, racked, finished MLF awaiting adjustments and stabilizing. Both sitting right about 1.000. But I feel like we both might be in no mans land. Too low SG to get yeast to take off. But high enough to not have the wine we intended to make. 
If yeast or starter was added and it did not take off could it end up with a "yeastie" flavor? I would not want to add any sugar to the starter so I don't end up without even more RS. Before I racked the primaries I attempted a starter ec1118 on the juice batch. It never took off and smelled like yeast and I ended up tossing. If Everclear was added to properly bump ABV could that also give the wine a full dry feel? 
Attempting a starter step feeding seems tedious and time consuming for something that has a good chance of doing nothing aside from making my wine taste like yeast. Tho my 1st failed starter attempt may make me biased. 
Of the grape batch I have a 15 gal demi, 5 gal carboy, and half full 1 gal jug currently refrigerated that I could play with. What do you think, add yeast and see if it finishes off, add Everclear and see how that affects the dryness, or let it roll as is. (I think it tastes good currently but would benefit from abv bump/going dry)
Aside from explaining the yeast starter process, I want to know what others would do given the same situation. Cmason, would you do that starter to a batch at 1.000? 1.002? Siwash you too- what's the plan?


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## Blazedup (Sep 26, 2017)

I'm in Arizona and also fermented my Sangiovese with BM 4x4. Your issue sounds to me that it could be nutrient related. BM 4x4 requires a fair amount of yeast nutrients during fermentation. I used fermaid O at first punch down and at 30% depletion and had no issues two years in a row. I would follow salcocos advise and press it now to allow the added oxygen to get you to completion. It's pretty late in the game to add yeast nutrients.


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

I should mention that part of my problem was also that I was a little short on yeast... but other recommended that I had enough to get by. BM4x4 only tolerate 82 but my ambient temp hit high 80s recently... which means must was higher. I didn't measure must temp. 

I am still unsure what to do but must decide by tonight or I will lose this must at these temps.. it's still bloody hot - are you folks also experiencing this record heat? We smashed records every day over the past 5 days and it's been above normal for 2 weeks


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## Ajmassa (Sep 26, 2017)

I believe Siwash properly fed nutrients during fermentation. As did I. Though I used ferm K,not O, at 1st punch and at 1/3 through. (Around 1.060)
Maybe I'm wrong, but 82° would keep it from starting, but not stop active fermentation that naturally raises the temps.


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

salcoco said:


> I would press the grape must now. the additional oxygen from the pressing may restart the fermentation on its own.
> at the point you are now it will be difficult to restart a fermentation. if it does not start after pressing allowing a few days, then hydrate the yeast, once bubbling. add one cup of pressed wine , once it is bubbling add two cups, continue to do so doubling the quantity of each time the fermentation is evident until all is fermenting.



I think this is what I am going to do... i just don't understand all of your suggested steps... what do you mean by adding _*"one cup of pressed wine , once it is bubbling add two cups, continue to do so doubling the quantity of each time the fermentation is evident..."*_

Do you mean add one cup of hydrated yeast to the pressed must?

Also, what about racking off the lees ? I usually do that after 2 days but waiting for another fermentation will change that schedule... I want to do an MLF too... can I still do so?


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## Ajmassa (Sep 26, 2017)

Similar to what Cmason said. After you press your wine and no longer have the skins in there. (Which also would introduce oxygen and possibly start it up again naturally). Add hydrated yeast to 1 cup of the pressed wine. Once foaming add another. Wait, then keep doubling the amount until you've got about a gallon fermenting to add to he whole batch again.
If you do this starter attempt then you'll be doing it right away. And not rack again off the gross lees until either the fermentation kicked off and finished up, or did nothing and dropped out with the gross lees in a few days. 
I'm gonna keep my batch sitting pretty since I'm pressed off lees and in glass. And let you be the guinea pig with this one since you don't have time to wait.


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

Also, can I put this off another day? This is day 10 since yeast pitch. I just don't have the time tonight...


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Similar to what Cmason said. After you press your wine and no longer have the skins in there. (Which also would introduce oxygen and possibly start it up again naturally). Add hydrated yeast to 1 cup of the pressed wine. Once foaming add another. Wait, then keep doubling the amount until you've got about a gallon fermenting to add to he whole batch again.



Okay, now I think I understand...!

Thanks


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## Ajmassa (Sep 26, 2017)

Siwash said:


> Also, can I put this off another day? This is day 10 since yeast pitch. I just don't have the time tonight...





Ya went this long what's one more day. That's my issue too. Seems like I need a full day with the wine to properly step feed the starter. A full day which I do not have to give just yet.


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

It's gonna have to wait... family commitments, work come first.. I just hope I don't lose this batch. When I transfer this stuff to my basement, it's only 66 down there. Guess I'll need a heater if I intend to see if there's any fermentation left?


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Ya went this long what's one more day. That's my issue too. Seems like I need a full day with the wine to properly step feed the starter. A full day which I do not have to give just yet.



Ya almost need to be retired to do this properly! I have very young kids at home - a newborn and a 3 year old! Oh well, when i retire this won't happen!


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## Ajmassa (Sep 26, 2017)

I hear ya man. Crush and press were crowbarred into my schedule as well. But it's not the end of the world. Like I said, my wine is pressed and racked and awaiting adjustments still at 1.000. It does taste promising. Not all is lost. But I know getting it fermented dry would just help make make it become that much better.


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## Smok1 (Sep 26, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I believe Siwash properly fed nutrients during fermentation. As did I. Though I used ferm K,not O, at 1st punch and at 1/3 through. (Around 1.060)
> Maybe I'm wrong, but 82° would keep it from starting, but not stop active fermentation that naturally raises the temps.



Bm4x4 has a really low optimal temp range. 82f, i just measures my must temps and my room is 69f and my must is generating alot of heat, it was at 82f before i cooled it down using a couple frozen water bottles. 13f dofference in room vs must temp. If his room was high 80s to 90f hos must temp may have gone over 100f, that temp can be harmful to a yeast not designed to withstand those temps. Theres lots of other yeasts that will withstand higher temps but bm4x4 isnt one of them according to lalvins website. Im not sure if thats the only reason the ferment stopped but excessive heat coupled with an already low yeast count isnt a good combo. Id go with the ec1118 idea, at this point id press and id get a starter going in a 1 or 2 gallon container hydrate with goferm at 43c wait 15 min and add 1/4 cup of my juice to the yeast, wait 15 min and add a 1/2 cup, id keep that process going doubling my juice into the yeast jug until i had a good starter going, if you get a gallon starter going and it looks active and foaming it should start up your wine and finish it off.

On the other hand if by the time youve added half a gallon of wine into your yeast starter, if it doesnt look like its foaming and wanting to get going id scratch that idea. Because at that point id have to start looking at other reasons why the ferment stopped. Ph possibly. I know the two grapes i ordered out of cali both had high ph.


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## Siwash (Sep 26, 2017)

Smok1 said:


> Bm4x4 has a really low optimal temp range. 82f, i just measures my must temps and my room is 69f and my must is generating alot of heat, it was at 82f before i cooled it down using a couple frozen water bottles. 13f dofference in room vs must temp. If his room was high 80s to 90f hos must temp may have gone over 100f, that temp can be harmful to a yeast not designed to withstand those temps. Theres lots of other yeasts that will withstand higher temps but bm4x4 isnt one of them according to lalvins website. Im not sure if thats the only reason the ferment stopped but excessive heat coupled with an already low yeast count isnt a good combo. Id go with the ec1118 idea, at this point id press and id get a starter going in a 1 or 2 gallon container hydrate with goferm at 43c wait 15 min and add 1/4 cup of my juice to the yeast, wait 15 min and add a 1/2 cup, id keep that process going doubling my juice into the yeast jug until i had a good starter going, if you get a gallon starter going and it looks active and foaming it should start up your wine and finish it off.
> 
> On the other hand if by the time youve added half a gallon of wine into your yeast starter, if it doesnt look like its foaming and wanting to get going id scratch that idea. Because at that point id have to start looking at other reasons why the ferment stopped. Ph possibly. I know the two grapes i ordered out of cali both had high ph.



Thanks to al for your assistance... hopefully I'll get to the bottom of this!


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## Smok1 (Sep 26, 2017)

At this point because its been a few days now that the fermentation has stopped if it was me id press now because theres probly not alot of co2 cap protecting your wine anymore. Id press now, hopefully there might be a little resodual sugar you could press from the in berries still which could help get fermentation started back up again


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## Ajmassa (Sep 26, 2017)

Smok1 said:


> At this point because its been a few days now that the fermentation has stopped if it was me id press now because theres probly not alot of co2 cap protecting your wine anymore. Id press now, hopefully there might be a little resodual sugar you could press from the in berries still which could help get fermentation started back up again





I crossed that "press and pray" bridge 2 weeks ago to no avail. I'm a couple digits lower than Siwash at 1.000 but I still don't like it. 
I was keeping temp of the room an of the must throughout. The room was steady at 75° the whole time. And I pitched 78° hydrated yeast as the must was just about up to 69°. 
BM4x4 is a very popular strain. I was originally looking at BDX or BM45 but was advised against it since BM4x4 was a proven winner for big reds. I do find it highly unlikely that reaching 82° during fermentation would stall it out. With the amount of people using this yeast in September ferments I gotta think that on average the must temp will creep into the 80°s on a large percentage. And if it is that sensitive to high temp I am very surprised i haven't seen it mentioned at all. 
RC212 is the yeast I've mostly used and never had an issue like this before. But I truly believe it's not BM4x4's fault. Because I had the same exact stall happen on a totally different batch with totally different yeast. A juice bucket that went off on natural yeast. I added a commercial strain to attempt to overtake the ferment but I'll never know for sure which yeast went to work on that one- the wild yeast or the andante. It stopped at 1.001-1.002ish. When I attempted to make a starter with EC1118 I could not get it to show visible foaming at all- even with the added sugar. 
I think it was the high ph- even tho I really have no scientific reasons for thinking this. Just process of elimination. Both of my stalled batches were at 3.9 and 4.0
Now that MLF is complete (super fast) my plan is likely going to be to adjust the acid first, and then probably attempt some kind of starter as suggested.
Siwash- I feel your pain buddy. Good luck. Keep us posted.


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## salcoco (Sep 27, 2017)

My original suggestion ie dubbed as a yeast starter, is to continue doubling adding the wine to the yeast/wine combination that is hopefully fermenting. I would not stop at just a gallon of yeast starter and return it to the pressed wine, but continue adding the pressed wine to the yeast/wine combination doubling each time. eventually practicality will take over and the yeast/wine combination will be large enough to combine with the starting volume of pressed wine.


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## Siwash (Sep 29, 2017)

I pressed last night. This morning I have the same reading.. no further fermentation. I know this is going to sound like a lazy man's approach - I yielded 7 carboys of 5 gallons. I actually have 7 packets of EC1118 (5 grams each) that the package states is intended for up to 6 gallons. Can I just add one of each 5g packet to each carboy (along with the appropriate amount of GoFerm)? Again, I know it sounds like I am cutting corners, but as I've stated earlier, I am really pressed for time these days due to work and family constraints. Is there any negative fallout/consequence for this simple method? What happens to any yeast that didn't ferment? Will it just fall to the bottom? Am I assured of getting it going again? I am thinking of doing this and turning up temp to 75 (It's all sitting in my cool 65 F basement now). Keep in mind that I intend to do an MLF starting this weekend so that has to be taken into consideration - I still have to rack off the main lees before I begin that... maybe sunday? and between tonight and Sunday morning, maybe I can finish off this damn fermentation!!

thanks so much for everyone's help... I am feeling pretty discouraged by all of this so I appreciate the input.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 29, 2017)

What was your starting SG


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## Siwash (Sep 29, 2017)

1.099 or1.100 - really hard to tell exactly when you first measure due to all the thick, syruppy must - and it stopped at 1.003.

Actually, looking at the photo of it again, it stopped at more like 1.006 or 07


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## Smok1 (Sep 29, 2017)

With your sg being so low now i dont think ec1118 will start up without taking some time to make a good starter, the conditions for the yeast are not optimal when most of the sugar is gone, if you dont get a proper starter going most likely the yeast wont take off at all or it may get stressed and give some off flavors.


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## stickman (Sep 29, 2017)

Siwash said:


> I actually have 7 packets of EC1118 (5 grams each) that the package states is intended for up to 6 gallons. Can I just add one of each 5g packet to each carboy (along with the appropriate amount of GoFerm)?



It is rarely a good idea to experiment with the entire batch. I think the chances for success are slim, but if you really want to to try this, just do it with one carboy, if it works, great, if not you still have yeast left for other options. If it were me, I would be making a gallon starter at the same time, maybe half and half stuck wine and store bought grape juice like Welches no preservatives, add nutrients to the starter and rehydrate with Go-ferm and pitch the EC1118 to the starter, most likely you'll see activity in a matter of hours, use the build up process as others have already suggested.

Just my opinion, but moving ahead with ML is not a good idea. Get the AF finished first.

There are many restart procedures posted, nearly all are based on the build-up method and also employ yeast hulls. These are published by people that have been through this before. 

View attachment Restarting Stuck Fermentation.pdf


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## Siwash (Sep 29, 2017)

thanks guys... so whats my window? my carboys are sitting here with airlocks... no kmeta yet since i want to do an mlf

should i start asap


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## Ajmassa (Sep 29, 2017)

I wouldn't sweat not having K-meta. You could not do anything for weeks and nothing would change. 
I do think however that keeping the gross lees in there right now might be beneficial for when you attempt the yeast starter. 
Definitely throw away any "schedule" you had for this wine right now. You should do an MLF when it's ready- and who knows when that'll be. 
Remember I'm kinda in the thick of this with you. 1.100-1.000. 13.13%abv to your 12.73%. - which doesn't sound so bad. But those last 2 replies are both saying you'll need to do that starter properly. Which likely would mean being at home with your wine and working on it through the bulk of the day. Adding a pack of EC1118 to each carboy woulda just made this process too easy anyway. 
I'm dreading this yeast starter for my 25 gal total of wine that needs it. Im anticipating to fumble around with jugs and buckets and yeast and spilled wine and watching and adding and waiting and watching and adding etc... hoping all that work isn't for nothing. 
And now I'm contemplating whether the 1.000 I've got is good enough


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## Ajmassa (Sep 29, 2017)

Just got done checking the wine and getting all my extra odd sized amounts out of the fridge and into appropriate jugs, jars and bottles. I'm at 1.001. 
After tasting I decided that I can't decide! So freakin difficult to tell what to do. But with my
MLF finished and my high ph I'm going to adjust acid 1st. Then in a week I'll re-evaluate. And by that point you'll have posted how successful you were giving me more confidence to go for it


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## Siwash (Sep 30, 2017)

I have 7 carboys @ 5 Gallons right now. Should I work on each one individually (make a starter for each) or can I make one single water/wine starter and add it to each carboy? This would speed up the process... I could work with total volume of 7 carboys when factoring in amounts of yeast/nutrients to add... Not sure of this would would work?!


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## Siwash (Sep 30, 2017)

From Scott Lab:

_In another clean container mix equal volumes of stuck wine and water. Generally this would total 2% of the total wine volume. (Example: For 1000 gal of stuck wine, use 10 gal water + 10 gal wine.) This container will be the “Mother Restart Tank”._

So I have about 135 L (35 gallons) - that would be a total of 2.7 L. So mix 1.35 L of wine and equal parts water... then go from there to create a starter for the entire batch even though they are all separate containers? 

Sorry for all the questions - i have never done this before and I am really worried I am going to mess this up


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## stickman (Sep 30, 2017)

Yes, that seems correct to me, it can be larger if desired, but the ratio needs to be the same, so don't exceed 50% stuck wine. It might seem complicated, but you are really just making a small batch of wine. Keep in mind what the big picture is; you are just diluting the contaminants of the stuck wine to allow the yeast to grow under more favorable conditions first, and then become acclimated gradually to the contaminants and harsh conditions that will follow.


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## Siwash (Sep 30, 2017)

I am seriously considering racking into two 54L demis... this would make it easier to work with in theory... or should i just work with the 7 carboys and make the one concoction for all of the vessels? Someone mentioned that the gross lees might be beneficial at this stage.. not sure about that

So if working with 7 carboys, should I make this one starter batch in a gallon then simply add to each vessel? How much (ml) should i add to each? this is why I am thinking of working with two demis instead of 7 carboys... easier to work with the two in theory.


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## stickman (Sep 30, 2017)

You have to add the stuck wine to the starter in increments, so once the starter gets going you should transfer it to a vessel large enough to begin accepting the additions of stuck wine, the demi will be great. If your starter is 2.7 L, then your first addition will be 2.7 L of stuck wine, once it is actively fermenting the next addition will be around 5 L, once fermenting the next will be 10 L, then 20 then 40 L etc. Below is taken from the restart procedure I posted earlier.

*Meter the Stuck Wine into the Starter*
The yeast will begin building a strong population quickly in the friendly environment of the Starter. Monitor the Brix of the Starter with a hydrometer. When the Brix have dropped by half (to about 2.5 Brix), then the yeast are ready to take on the stuck wine in slow increments.
◊ Begin by adding a volume of stuck wine equal to the volume of the starter. Once again, temperature acclimation is critical. If the stuck wine and starter are more than 10°F apart, incrementally add small amounts of stuck wine in order to equilibrate the temperatures. Note also that your goal is to keep the fermentation running in the range of 65-75°F.
◊ After each addition, wait for a sign of renewed fermentation activity (either by hydrometer or just visually) and then double the volume again by adding more stuck wine. All the stuck wine is eventually metered into the fermentation in this manner.


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## Ajmassa (Sep 30, 2017)

That was the thought that I had. To use larger vessels. I saw like this- starting with the small amount and keep doubling and doubling until it's a whole 5 gallon carboy going. Then double to two 5 gallon carboy going. Then put 5 gallons in a demijohn and add the 10 gallon starter to the demijohn. 
With a whole demijohn goin you could fill another halfway with from the first. Then fill it the rest of the way with stuck wine. And refill the original demi with the rest of the stuck wine. Ending up with 2 full demijohns going. 
But that gets you to 28 gal not 35. So maybe fill some carboys with half stuck wine and half starter wine accordingly till it's all goin??!!!!
Just spitballing here. The gross lees thing was just a thought. I don't actually know if it would help or not


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## Ajmassa (Sep 30, 2017)

How you makin out?


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## Siwash (Oct 1, 2017)

This is what I did yesterdya afternoon... the starters are starting to ferment in mason jars right now! It's from http://blog.eckraus.com/making-a-wine-yeast-starter-to-restart-a-stuck-fermentation

_How To Make A Wine Yeast Starter

For restarting 5 or 6 gallons, take a quart jar and fill it half way with the wine in question. Add to that, water until the jar is 2/3 full. Put in the mix a 1/4 teaspoon of yeast nutrient, and 3 tablespoons of sugar. Be sure that the sugar becomes completely dissolve. Now you can add a whole packet of the Champagne yeast. Cover the jar with a paper towel and secure with a rubber band.

Put the starter in a cozy spot at 70° to 75°F. You should see some activity within 12 to 18 hours. You will want to pitch the wine starter into the stuck fermentation right after you see the level of foaming in the jar peak. This will usually be around 1-1/2 to 2 days. Be sure to swirl the jar to add all the sediment in the starter to the wine must, as well._


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

That's the exact process I used on my first attempt. Never got it to foam though. Good luck


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## Siwash (Oct 1, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> That's the exact process I used on my first attempt. Never got it to foam though. Good luck



And so you ddin't bother trying it in your main batch? 

I am finding the same thing is happening.. just fizzing a bit right now so some C02 being produced... If it doesn't foam is it useless to pitch? It won't restart? Well, if that't the case, I'll be starting an MLF and living with what I got... oh well.. I'm sure it'll be fine.. 

Looks like I'll be racking off the gross lees tomorrow and getting that MLF going.

This won't happen again if I can help it...


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

Yea. I attempted it on my juice bucket which stopped dropping before the grape batch stopped. 
Went through that same process you posted, and after a day even added more sugar. And then some more stuck wine a lol while later. I could hear some co2 but that's about it. Never had actual "noticeable activity". Don't know why. But I just racked and proceeded as is. 
Had 2 quarts of extra sweet yeast smelling stuck wine that I dumped. 
Since you had exactly the same thing just happen I'm wondering if there's something we just missed or was it something beyond our control. 
But if getting it to ferment dry is indeed out of the question, my original thought was to do some test trials with Everclear to bump abv and make a last ditch effort to get a fully dry feel. But I have no clue if there's any validity to that thought process.


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## stickman (Oct 1, 2017)

If co2 is being produced then it is fermenting, that's what you want, you may never reach the high level of foam due to the contaminants from the stuck wine. Let it ferment a while and then double the volume with stuck wine, and wait until it starts to ferment again, that's how to proceed.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

My experience went similar. At 24 hrs it never got more than just hearing the crackle if you put your ear to the jar. Another 12 hours of that and I added another cup of stuck wine. And then 12 hours after that I added 2 tablespoons of simple syrup attempting to get a confident fermentation going before I kept doubling up. 
But it never showed any strong signs at all aside from the light co2 crackle. And definitely was weak enough to deter me from putting all the wine through that So I made a judgment call and aborted the mission. 
But I would definitely make another attempt on both batches if there was something I did wrong The first attempt that prevented the starter from taking off.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

It definitely didn't help my morale when using that EC Krauss guide (we both happened to use ) of making a starter they are using amount foam as timeline points in the process. 
I was going to double the amount of stuck wine "When foam peaks out". 
No foam= no confidence.
I wish that website didn't stress the " foam" so much. 

I do have a question though. And I understand that it's not recommended and less likely to work, BUT...
If I were to just simply add EC1118 and some nutrients directly to the entire batch, and it did NOT WORK at all, and it all just dropped out and settled on the bottom, and then racked off into a new vessel---could that negatively effect the wine in any way ?


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## stickman (Oct 1, 2017)

You cannot add nutrients to the batch at your low sg. That's why most of the procedures call for nutrients to be added to a starter, this way the yeast are provided what they need during the growth phase. Adding a package of yeast to the batch would do no harm in such small quantity, in fact there are procedures for yeast fining using dry active yeast, with similar results to adding inactive yeast like Noblesse. There are countless recommendations for the addition of yeast hulls when trying to restart a stuck fermentation under difficult conditions. The yeast hulls provide very little nutrition, but adsorb various contaminants known to inhibit fermentation, add the hulls stir and wait 48hrs then rack off.


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## Siwash (Oct 1, 2017)

stickman said:


> If co2 is being produced then it is fermenting, that's what you want, you may never reach the high level of foam due to the contaminants from the stuck wine. Let it ferment a while and then double the volume with stuck wine, and wait until it starts to ferment again, that's how to proceed.



Ok, but am I doubling up with water and stuck wine or just wine? I have 750ML right now in each mason - 500 ml wine, 250 water... should I add 500 ml of wine? The activity is pretty weak. It's fizzing a little but you have to put your ear to it to hear. 

Also, should I stir up the bottom right now (just like one would do when punching down)? I will continue for another 24 and see what happens.. I have no idea when I should add this extra shot of stuck wine.. Going to have to get bigger containers then if I am adding more. How many more days can this go on? when will I know when to pitch? I've got a lot of wine sitting on gross lees that is air locked.. I guess I can put off that MLF for now..


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## stickman (Oct 1, 2017)

So you are following the Eckraus procedure? You added the yeast nutrients and sugar along with the stuck wine and water? You re-hydrated the yeast first? According to Eckraus you wait 1.5 to 2 days before pitching the starter to the carboy. The lab procedure on page 3 of this post is more involved, but probably has a greater chance of success. There's no way to know for sure what will work. I think you have to pick a procedure and run with it.


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## Smok1 (Oct 1, 2017)

Not sure what rehydration procedure your using but you cant use most yeast nutrients while rehydrating, any yeast nutrients containing "DAP" will kill yeast in high concentrates, goferm contains no dap, it is safe to use while Rehydrating your yeast, but fermaid k contains dap, most brands labeled "yeast nutrient" or "yeast energizer" contain dap, if u add fermaid k to your starter it will kill your yeast. I havent read ec krauss startup procedure but i use scott labs procedure, i will find and post it.

http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/136/2016RestartStuck.pdf

Diammonium Phosphate (DAP) Is what nearly all yeast nutrients contain and they are ment to be mixed as per instructed into the must, not into a yeast starter.

I always make a yeast starter before innoculating any must, whether its fruit, kits, or grapes, ive used ec-1118, k1-1116, 71b, rc212, not all of them foam heavily at first, but ec1118 after 2 hours of properly starting it should definitly have some heavy foam


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

DAP will kill yeast in a starter? I specifically did not use Go-Ferm and used yeast nutrient ferm K as specified in the EC krauss site. It's says to add "yeast nutrient" with the text linked up to their nutrient they sell. They call it "yeast nutrient" and its 100% DAP. 
If this is true than every single person who follows those instructions exactly as stated will be unsuccessful. Are you sure this is true? If so then Ed Krauss owes me a few hours of my life back!


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## Smok1 (Oct 1, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> DAP will kill yeast in a starter? I specifically did not use Go-Ferm and used yeast nutrient ferm K as specified in the EC krauss site. It's says to add "yeast nutrient" with the text linked up to their nutrient they sell. They call it "yeast nutrient" and its 100% DAP.
> If this is true than every single person who follows those instructions exactly as stated will be unsuccessful. Are you sure this is true? If so then Ed Krauss owes me a few hours of my life back!



This pic is right off the scott labs webite, and i have tryed many times using yeast nutrient to rehydrate my yeast and wondered many times why it didnt work and wrote it off as dead yeast. I did a bit of research and realized i was actaully killing my yeast with dap.


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## Smok1 (Oct 1, 2017)

When making a starter us only goferm, and some sugar, or some must. Do not use anything containing dap. At least not until those yeast are alive and healthy, then add the appropriate amount according to the instructions.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

Just found this myself looking up yeast hulls. And Check out that EC Krauss link. I'm pretty irked right about now.


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## Smok1 (Oct 1, 2017)

Ya i havent looked at kruass website but i know ive tryed making teast starters using yeast nutrient and my yeast was basically dead after. I ordered goferm ( which i believe is fermaidk minus the dap) and i have not had a yeast starter fail.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 1, 2017)

http://blog.eckraus.com/making-a-wine-yeast-starter-to-restart-a-stuck-fermentation

Here's a screenshot 


And when you click on the "yeast nutrient"



New evidence breaks the case wide open! Let's see if we can get this damn thing done now!


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## Smok1 (Oct 1, 2017)

Ya well, id say investigate for yourself. I have. Try making a yeast starter with goferm and sugar. And make one side by side with yeast nutrient, i can tell you in my experience goferm alone makes a great starter, whenever ive tryed nutrient or energizer its failed. Like i said earlier i started writing it off as dead yeast packs but eventually i realized that this many yeast packs couldnt be dead, and my success rates using goferm were 100%, Like i posted earlier from scott labs site "dap is toxic to yeast at high concentrations" its a fact in my experience. Goferm is for rehydrating yeast, yeast nutrients go into the must.

This isnt my method, i stole it from a number of sources from here and my wife whos a compounding pharmacist plus a bunch of research weve done, but l use it for making a yeast starter and its never failed for me.

First your yeast are freeze dried. You need to revive them and not stress them out, stressed out yeast give off flavors, you can research this more regarding the way they multiply, they can multiply happy, or they can multilpy deformed and not be happy. Theres lots of info on the web regarding how yeast bend and multipy. Following the instructions for each phase of the yeast life will multiply your chances for success.

1: rehydrate your yeast using goferm following instructions. 1 part yeast 1.25 parts goferm. Add goferm to 43c water whisk in, wait for water to get to 40c and add yeast. wAit 15 min.

2: add 60cc of must ( your yeast culture will be about 38c and your must will be room temp at this point 21c)

3: wait 30 min, add another 60cc of must, every 30 min u add your must, until your yeast starter is the same temp as your must. Every time u add your must (or sugar water) you should be seeing activity (depending on your yeast you may see more or less activity)

4: if your making a starter to reinnoculate a stuck fermentation at this point use sugar water instead of must for the prior must additions, now put in 60cc of your stuck wine.

5: continue this for a couple hours. If after 12 hours its going good your starter should be good to go into your stuck wine.


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## Siwash (Oct 2, 2017)

Smok1 said:


> Not sure what rehydration procedure your using but you cant use most yeast nutrients while rehydrating, any yeast nutrients containing "DAP" will kill yeast in high concentrates, goferm contains no dap, it is safe to use while Rehydrating your yeast, but fermaid k contains dap, most brands labeled "yeast nutrient" or "yeast energizer" contain dap, if u add fermaid k to your starter it will kill your yeast. I havent read ec krauss startup procedure but i use scott labs procedure, i will find and post it.
> 
> http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/136/2016RestartStuck.pdf
> 
> ...



Actually, added nutrient to water first and stirred then added yeast - So i messed this up... ok.. back to the drawing board..


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## Siwash (Oct 2, 2017)

Smok1 said:


> This pic is right off the scott labs webite, and i have tryed many times using yeast nutrient to rehydrate my yeast and wondered many times why it didnt work and wrote it off as dead yeast. I did a bit of research and realized i was actaully killing my yeast with dap.



this is what I did... Go Firm, then yeast.. It was left o stand for an hour at least and it foamed up... I stirred well, used warmish non-chlorinated water (we are on a well).. I mean how darn sensitive is this yeast? EC1118 is supposedly a strong yeast.. going to check on it now

So just checked... the fizzing was still present but seemed to be no more "active" and perhaps even less active - I stirred the contents that settled to the bottom. No one or no instruction said to do this, but at this point.... So at 4PM today it will have been 48 hours since I began the re-start. If there's no noticeable difference, I am goint to go ahead with racking the gross lees starting my MLF and calling it a day.. I'll live with a bit of sugar I guess... this is coming from the person who prefers bone dry wine! I pretty much only drink Italian for that reason... Oh well... next year is going to be a non-winemaking year for the first time in a long time... I will re-energize and refocus for the 2019 year and make sure that this doesn't happen again... I know what I did wrong even if the weather was out of my control, I could have brought the must into the basement... and I should have used more yeast and Go ferm to begin with.

Thanks for everyones help... I learned a lot.


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## Ajmassa (Oct 2, 2017)

Siwash said:


> this is what I did... Go Firm, then yeast.. It was left o stand for an hour at least and it foamed up... I stirred well, used warmish non-chlorinated water (we are on a well).. I mean how darn sensitive is this yeast? EC1118 is supposedly a strong yeast.. going to check on it now
> 
> So just checked... the fizzing was still present but seemed to be no more "active" and perhaps even less active - I stirred the contents that settled to the bottom. No one or no instruction said to do this, but at this point.... So at 4PM today it will have been 48 hours since I began the re-start. If there's no noticeable difference, I am goint to go ahead with racking the gross lees starting my MLF and calling it a day.. I'll live with a bit of sugar I guess... this is coming from the person who prefers bone dry wine! I pretty much only drink Italian for that reason... Oh well... next year is going to be a non-winemaking year for the first time in a long time... I will re-energize and refocus for the 2019 year and make sure that this doesn't happen again... I know what I did wrong even if the weather was out of my control, I could have brought the must into the basement... and I should have used more yeast and Go ferm to begin with.
> 
> Thanks for everyones help... I learned a lot.




Now I'm confused. I though you followed the EC Krauss instruction calling for nutrient and yeast added directly to jar containing stuck wine/sugar water mixed. 
I'm going for it again. Using that Scott Labs link which specifally says Brix under 1 should not have any nutrient added(I used ferm K). And following the instructions to the letter. 
I only have a few hours every afternoon to work in the wine tho. And iv got 2 batches to do this to. Need to go by the LHBS to pick up more stuff. Need more yeast and go-ferm. Scott Labs also recommends Reskue and/or lysozyme which I'll get if they have it. I have reduless but I don't think that would help. Gonna try and do this right


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## Siwash (Oct 2, 2017)

i did but I took some idea from Scott


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## Kozzie (Jul 21, 2021)

Since I'm having that problem as well, so I use a bottle of wine instead of my wine must that won't get to 1.000? I have a bottle of Valpolicella that I made last year.


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