# Approaching time to do my first pruning



## sremick (Mar 3, 2020)

So the vines I have I just planted last season. So from what I hear, we're about at the time to do the first dormant pruning. As a newbie, I confess I'm pretty paranoid about screwing this up.

Growth varied from just a foot or to to several, but nothing quite made the top cordon wire so from what I understand, I should cut everything back down to 2-3 buds and let them try again. Sound right?

My other question: is it even realistic that I could see enough growth in a single year to not only make it to the top wire (5') but also then further distance to go laterally a few feet? I'm looking to do 2-trunks so that seems a lot to expect from a young vine... we're talking 2 canes with about 9' (5+4) growth each in a single season. Is it critical that the trunk+lateral be all one season's growth, or can I do it in stages? I understand the growth becomes more vigorous each season as there are more roots to support it, but still...


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## srcorndog (Mar 3, 2020)

Have you decided on a trellis system and what type of vines are you growing and how many


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## sremick (Mar 3, 2020)

srcorndog said:


> Have you decided on a trellis system


Top wire high cordon (hanging down)... two trunks.



> and what type of vines are you growing and how many


Mostly marquette with some petite pearl. 42 vines total.


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## srcorndog (Mar 3, 2020)

go to doubleavineyards.com look up your vine and look at the trellis system suggestion only let me know what you think


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## sremick (Mar 3, 2020)

srcorndog said:


> go to doubleavineyards.com look up your vine and look at the trellis system suggestion only let me know what you think


Yes, I'm sort of past that point.  I did all that research way before I chose a variety and built the trellis. Trellis is already built. FYI that website was one of many that suggested "Top Wire Cordon" which is what I went with.

Because of my climate (and based upon what I see other vineyards in my state do) I want to do a double-trunk training. So all that leads to my original question. I don't want to mess up my first pruning and initial training.


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## srcorndog (Mar 4, 2020)

go to your local vineyards visit during pruning does your county not have vineyard association you can join? I have Watson trellis and vsp remember it is only a vine I always cut back to a pencil size on my new vines to encourage growth and root growth never below the graft good luck prune on your vines will be resilient


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 4, 2020)

have had rabbits or mice winter prune all my vines on year one. you won’t mess up, they can push the growth back though


sremick said:


> I don't want to mess up my first pruning and initial training.


Grapes are extremely resilient and to some extent it doesn’t matter. You can shape them on year three as well if the rabbits took em down again. For me after the rabbits have had dinner, the buds at 6 inches will resprout and I can pull two leads up. Year two remove all side shoots once they reach top wire. Year three (and forever) keep the stem clean of shoots, start training on the top wire actively counting buds and trimming so they don’t grow into the next vine. Year four they are rabbit resistant and intensive black rot spraying starts. Marquette isn’t too bad, Petite Pearl seems weak needs to be babied and for comparison Frontenac is wild/ trim it back all year with a weed eater.

County extension had a fact sheet on pruning. The gift shop at Wolersheim winery had a DVD done by the owner (Philep) if you want a visual. Basically I treat all northern hybrid grapes the same.


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## sremick (Mar 4, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Year two remove all side shoots once they reach top wire. Year three (and forever) keep the stem clean of shoots, start training on the top wire actively counting buds and trimming so they don’t grow into the next vine.



Do I need the 2 trunks to not only reach the top wire but also grow enough more to extend laterally the required number of feet, all in one season's growth? (meaning I cut it do the ground and start over next season hoping it does it then) Or if it only makes it part way (or just to the top wire, but not enough extra), can I save it and let a bud from next season's grow take it the rest of the way?


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 4, 2020)

Marquette is a good grower! It is capable of developing some lateral growth in year one. I pick a lead I like and let that lead go.
For year two the trunk is wiped clean of shoots every month. The intended growth is on the horizontal wire andI mostly let it go. From this point I wish I started at 10 or 12 foot spacing since it is vigorous and will grab it, , unless I fight back. One vs two trunks is personal preference. I started with two but have only done one for a few years. Grape is prolific at budding, yes I am wiping growth off the trunk on ten year old plants.

I guess I sin and don’t baby my plants. Petite pearl needs more intervention and hasn’t done well for me. Maybe if I hired someone to spray when the wife wants to do vacation it would be ok. sooooo, , , I debate getting a few Crimson pearl or Verona to see how much work they are/and the Brix/ flavor of the grape.


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## sremick (Mar 4, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Marquette is a good grower! It is capable of developing some lateral growth in year one. I pick a lead I like and let that lead go.
> For year two the trunk is wiped clean of shoots every month. The intended growth is on the horizontal wire andI mostly let it go.



Thanks for providing your experience. I apologize for being a bit dense here as I feel it's a combination of me not communicating well and also not understanding people well. But despite peoples' efforts I feel the actual gist of my question keeps getting missed. 

You say it can develop "some" lateral growth. But what if that lateral growth isn't sufficient for the cordon? Do you:

A) chop it back to the ground and hope it does it the next year?
Or
B) do you actually NOT wipe that trunk "clean of shoots" leaving at least one bud at the end to grow a new cane to extend the cordon the remaining distance needed? Because the cane that grew year 1 isn't going to grow any further on year 2... it'll be a bud off that cane producing a new cane.


So you build the trunk in "stages"? (B) Or does the trunk have to be 100% one year's-worth of growth? (A)

If I'm being unclear I can draw pictures.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 4, 2020)

Look at each plant and ask yourself “what do I want it to look like next year?” It doesn’t matter if rabbits trimmed it since it can activate a lower bud and grow around the damaged area.


A) never chop the grape back to the ground, what you want is a thick bark which will resist rabbits, you get there faster by maintaining the existing stem(s) and letting em grow.
B) You will find that you can not remove all the buds on a stem. This means that there are primary buds you will see, but behind that is a secondary bud and behind that is a tertiary bud. A few times a summer I will walk the rows and make adjustments to the stem, tie it tighter to the support pole, take 20% of the leaves off so that it is aiming where it should be next year, trim the arms so that they end when they reach where the next vine is supposed to be, later in summer cutting side canopy to expose juvenile grape clusters.
Always it is a judgement call on where do you want it to be next year, the plant will respond pushing energy/stems and leaves where you let it grow.
It is possible to observe an arm is damaged or just ugly or seems to be running short of juvenile buds and cut the whole arm off so a new arm has room and grows. Grapes are very forgiving. , , , ,Only one caution in all this, , , grapes fruit off of two year old wood. Practice identifying one year old wood and older wood. The one year old wood has the buds which can grapes this summer.

japanese beetles will be a bigger issue than how well or badly you prune.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 4, 2020)

Note plant looks like it has three or four trunks started. The two big ones were intentional. The smaller could be removed once a month, (Marquette grows fast) or if they look better you could clip the older and start over, , , with the loss of two year old wood. 
The photo shows flowers which should be rubbed off to encourage next year’s growth. They came from buds on the stem which was two year old wood.


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## sremick (Mar 4, 2020)

Yeah Japanese beetles were a huge problem for me last year. I have more to my arsenal to fight them now. I believe it's one of the reasons several vines didn't make much progress (they loss too many leaves while still small). I'm aware I'm handicapping myself by wanting to stick organic.

Sorry, I didn't truly mean cut clean all the way to the ground... obviously leaving a bit with 2-3 buds so that new potential trunks can grow out.

In reading through all your helpful information, I guess I'm still unclear: does the full "trunk" (in this case, both the 5' vertical part and then the 4' or so horizontal once it hits the top wire, so about 9' total)... does that whole 9' need to be entirely a single-year's growth, or can be done in two stages (part way one year, then a bud off the tip of that cane trained to go the rest of the way the following year)? 

(My "A" and "B" wasn't a 2-part question, but rather was me trying to simplify asking which was the appropriate answer to my question, either-or, to make it more clear).


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## BigH (Mar 5, 2020)

sremick said:


> Growth varied from just a foot or to to several, but nothing quite made the top cordon wire so from what I understand, I should cut everything back down to 2-3 buds and let them try again. Sound right?



Cutting back to 2 or 3 buds should be your default decision. All weaklings should get this treatment, as well as most of the decent growers. 

You can continue growth from your strongest vines. For those, cut back to pencil thick wood and resume growth from there. Once the top few buds push out a shoot, nick out the buds below them so most of the energy goes into the top shoots. Grow them up to the wire and try to get some cordons established. It would be wise to follow up with some pictures and get some advice when your vines reach the top wire.

Overall, my advice is to chop at least 2/3rds of your vines back to 2 or 3 buds and try to resume growth on no more than 1/3. Some peoples say to chop everything down in year two, but I like training some vines for a light crop next year. You have a lot of mistakes ahead of you that need to be made. Might as well get on with before you have a full crop to deal with.

H


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## sremick (Mar 7, 2020)

Ok maybe a dumb question:

How to you know how to cut back to 2-3 buds during the dormant pruning considering that it's before the buds start to form?


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## Johnd (Mar 7, 2020)

sremick said:


> Ok maybe a dumb question:
> 
> How to you know how to cut back to 2-3 buds during the dormant pruning considering that it's before the buds start to form?



The bud sites are visible even before the buds begin to swell.


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## BigH (Mar 8, 2020)

sremick said:


> How to you know how to cut back to 2-3 buds during the dormant pruning considering that it's before the buds start to form?



Buds are always located at the nodes. The internodes have no buds. Cutting back to 2 buds means cutting back so that you have 2 nodes from last year's growth. The buds are already formed, they are just dormant.

Find two or three nodes on smooth, 1 year old wood and snip about 3/4" above the last node you want to keep.

H


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 8, 2020)

* You will find there are lots of buds on a healthy plant. If you leave an excess of fruiting buds you can correct by wiping the flowering clusters off as you see growth.
* The basic concept on counting 2 to 3 buds is to maximize fruit yield. Part of my pruning for fruit is to look at how healthy is the plant? I will prune more fruit buds if there appears to be freeze damage/ gray brittle twigs/ other as fungal, and let more buds if the plant has green internal phlomem and bright brown bark.
* You will find that the nodes @BigH points out, have secondary and tertiary buds behind the primary which can grow but don’t produce fruit. I have had an adult plants resprout even when trimmed to the ground level.


sremick said:


> How to you know how to cut back to 2-3 buds during the dormant pruning considering that it's before the buds start to form?


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## wxtrendsguy (Mar 15, 2020)

I have both vinifera and hybrid vines all on mid wire...the hybrids are spurred and the vinifera is cane pruned. That being said when we plant a new vine, in year one we just let it grow. Now at the start of year two which is where you are at now if the 1 yr old trunk is weak and skinny we cut it back to 2 buds and place a shelter around it to thwart rabbits. I have in the past cut them off at the fruiting wire and the resulting cane that grow from one of the top buds tended to be much larger and thicker than the trunk below it....this resulted in a weak trunk, prone to bending and unable to support the vine. I also find most of those vines succumb early in their lives to crown gall. 

If the trunk is thicker than a pencil (I like to use a sharpie as a good example) then we can keep that part of the trunk. If it has reached the top wire cut it off. After bud break laterals will form at each bud position along the trunk. In another month make a pass through the vineyard keep the top 4 laterals that originate below the fruiting wire and any lower laterals remove but keep the leaves along the trunk. Those top 4 laterals will grow well and stretch out along the top wire. Next year cut off the unneeded weaker cane if you are spur pruning, the cane that remains cut back to pencil thickness again...the shoot that originates at the last bud you will continue to train along the wire until you reach the length desired.

So now what to do if the trunk is thick enough at the base but not tall enough or thick enough at the top of the wire? Tie the trunk to your support post and cut it off where it becomes thinner than say a pencil. The bud below that cut will send a shoot likely to the top wire in record time, in about a month make a pass and cut off the green shoot just above the fruiting wire. The leaves below will quickly push laterals and then train them down the fruiting wire.


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