# PET Carboys / better bottle and knockoffs



## kevinlfifer (Jun 5, 2015)

This may be sacrilege to some. But I'll put it out there anyway.

I will also disclose that I have done a side by side comparison for over a year now with no measurable differences and no taste differences. 

What sin did I commit?

I used PET 4 gallon water bottles from Sam's Club as carboys for secondary and bulk aging. I used 3 carboys (=12 gal) for 2 juice bucket batches (=12 gal). Not to be confused with those blue 5 gal water bottles that are 02 permeable. The neck opening is the same as a better bottle. They are thinner and thus extremely light. They seem to be very smooth surfaced on the inside and so rinse cleanly with a spray of water.

Sometimes I made a uniform batch, such as all Malbec. Other times I made blended batch, i.e. 4 gal Syrah, 4 gal Grenache, 4 gal Syrah/Grenache blend.

All batches done in the 4 gal carboys are really good.

Cost per carboy $3.97, plus you can use the water for a kit.

So, if you are willing to work with the odd volume, the carboys are an inexpensive alternative for us cheapskates.


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## wineinmd (Jun 5, 2015)

Interesting. I wonder if Costco has the same. I'm planning on heading out tomorrow for our monthly trip and will take a look.


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## kevinlfifer (Apr 14, 2017)

Thought I'd throw a pix up on this thread


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## Johny99 (Apr 14, 2017)

I confess I use them as well, Safeway, but only for transfer and short term storage. I haven't tasted a difference, but I worry. Of course, if I only had $ to make wine in a galvanized bucket, I would. Luckily I can afford better and safer equipment.


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## Stevelaz (Apr 15, 2017)

Are those bottles you got at sams club "Members Mark"? How about the ones in the pic?


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## kevinlfifer (Oct 25, 2018)

Just bottled one of the Cab Sav (top row of pix) so bulk aging a year in the free carboys. It's very good. 

In my opinion (I will remind you I worked 14 years as a research chemist in extractive metallurgy) The first full layer of molecules in the PET carboy keeps out the oxygen, The balance is structural strength. I have capped these with one of their original caps when I was out of air locks. It was still fermenting, I thought it was done but it was not. It built up a tremendous amount of pressure but did not explode. It now holds 4.25 gallon.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 27, 2018)

Kevin -- Do you have any knowledge of the gallon drinking water jugs? I have never considered them for wine storage -- a prejudice against plastic that predates modern storage technology.

However, I was looking for gallon jugs of wine recently -- I need more gallon jugs and the jug wine is perfectly acceptable as cooking wine. But I can't find anything in glass gallon jugs -- it's all box wines now. The largest bottle I could find was 1.5 liters.


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## SethF (Oct 27, 2018)

kevinlfifer said:


> This may be sacrilege to some. But I'll put it out there anyway.
> 
> I will also disclose that I have done a side by side comparison for over a year now with no measurable differences and no taste differences.
> 
> ...


I know this is an old post, but hoping you reply. 2 questions:
1) You mention O2 permeability. Which ones are O2 permeable, and how permeable are they? Wouldn't this permeability be good to duplicate barrel micro-ox transfer? Would you lose some to evaporation?
2) I have gotten spoiled with the Fermonsters that I use, as they are ported and have a convex bottom. Have you tried drilling a port on these? I really don't know if the Fermonsters are O2 permeable.

I do my primaries in large 50 gal fermentors and then transport from my wine club in 3 gal water bottles (to save my back) and place in 7.5 gal Fermonsters that are ported. I rack between, use oak staves, and have aged my last batch from 2017 for 12 months without issue.

Thanks
Seth


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## loopline (Oct 27, 2018)

I use similar bottles, 3 gallon. Im not worries about anything, did a lot of research. Im bulk aging.


My big question ive been wondering and havent got around to asking is this - is using the lid slightly backed off any different ultimately then a air lock. 

I ask because if you slightly back off the lid, then that still allows for pressure change etc same as an air lock. And really thenair lock is only for bugs. Whem pressure changes it will still allow air to flow backwards into the bottle or out whichever need be. 

Air flowing thru the water in an air lock does not change its oxegyn content, if its flowing into the bottle. So i figure qhy bother with the air lock, use the lid, slightly back it off. Keeps bugs out and lets pressure exchange. Ive got 2 bottle, 3 gallon each of blueberry with only caps on them for the past month. Lack of air locks atm. 

Im really just interested to know if anyone has done it and bulk aged a year and had adverse tastes. 

The only thing i could think would be that having a little bit of water in an airlock May provide a slight very slight resistance us keeping some are transfer from happening. I would think this would be nominal at most but could make a difference but that's the only thing I could think of that would matter.

Ive used and have 6 gallon glass but i need to go up and down stairs and i abandonded using them in favor of my back and 3 gallon plastic blue jufs for $6 from walmart. 

Thoughts?


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## SethF (Oct 29, 2018)

You need the airlock and should never go without it, to prevent oxidation AND to prevent contamination by aything else that may be airborne, in addition to bugs.


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## mainshipfred (Oct 29, 2018)

I personally think a 4 gallon carboy is a great size. I have 3, 5, 6 and 7s. But if I have 8 gallons of wine it's a 7 and a 1. Would much prefer 2 fours to bulk age. All other quantities I have covered.


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## kevinlfifer (Oct 29, 2018)

81, The one gallon jugs I've used for batch overage are stamped PET1 and I use them primarily for secondary fermentation, I've not aged in them.

I've been aging in 4 gallon PET bottles a few years now. I always use an air lock with K-Meta.

Seth, One of the main reasons I use the 4 gallon bottles is the weight, free helps too. As for transferring from the garage where I ferment in 60 gallon drums, I siphon. Thru my office, the foyer, down the basement steps, thru the tasting area to the wine "making space"

I suppose you could do away with the air lock if:
1. Fermentation is absolutely done,
2. You used one of the original unpunctured caps that still has the sealing gasket intact.

I also find them to be the perfect size, I get 2 kits or buckets and use 3 carboys. You can decide to make 12 gallons of one varietal or 4 gal each of 2 varietals with 4 gal of a blend.


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=Ty1oQjV1NWhBSXllOGxFMVRCWFdwbzlLdFJrdWN3


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## loopline (Oct 29, 2018)

SethF said:


> You need the airlock and should never go without it, to prevent oxidation AND to prevent contamination by aything else that may be airborne, in addition to bugs.



If you really stop and think this thru your answer isnt logical. As air pressure and environmwnt changes air flows in and out of an air lock.

For example go read all the posts of people who ask if their wine is ok when they seal their car boy with a solid bung and it gets pushed out as pressure changes.

Air flowing into a carboy due to pressure and environment and temperature change will pass thru the water as an air bubble. Force it to happen by squeezing a bottle and watch.

The water will not filter out oxygen nor any other contaminants in the air bubble. The water is not a filter and doesnt stop contaminants or oxygen from flowing in. It pretty much stops bugs and larger particles from getting in. Backing off a cap does the same thing.

One could argue on a miniscule level that water could filter a small percentage of potential contaminants but the lions share of any such potential contaminants would remain inside the air bubble and pass into the car boy.

Im not asking a theory question here, im asking a science question. Or a taste question as if anyone has actually split tested it.


Thanks for the opinion however.



kevinlfifer said:


> 81, The one gallon jugs I've used for batch overage are stamped PET1 and I use them primarily for secondary fermentation, I've not aged in them.
> 
> I've been aging in 4 gallon PET bottles a few years now. I always use an air lock with K-Meta.
> 
> ...



Makes sense. My caps are brand new. I didnt realize sams even had such water bottles. At my sams ive only seen the primo brand ones that you have to purchase and turn back in or you dont get your big deposit back.

Ill keep an eye out for the non return ones. 

Due to space constraints and my setup im also condisering getting stackable water jugs. If the lid backed off proves to work then i could stack 3 gallon jugs in a closet. Just the stackable ones dont allow for an air lock.


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## ThunderFred (Oct 29, 2018)

I fill my airlocks with a sanatizer solution.


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## cmason1957 (Oct 29, 2018)

I think most folks use some type of sanitizer solution in the airlocks, so that using a backed-off screw cap isn't exactly the same as using an airlock. Airlock just seems like pretty simple insurance that nothing much gets into the wine. but heck, store your wine in an old dirty shoe, if you feel that's for the best. I prefer to follow the industry standard kinda thing, that's just me.


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## Johnd (Oct 29, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I think most folks use some type of sanitizer solution in the airlocks, so that using a backed-off screw cap isn't exactly the same as using an airlock. Airlock just seems like pretty simple insurance that nothing much gets into the wine. but heck, store your wine in an old dirty shoe, if you feel that's for the best. I prefer to follow the industry standard kinda thing, that's just me.



Agreed!!! Not to mention that a properly topped storage vessel with a properly filled airlock isn't frequently allowing air bubble to go into the vessel, if it ever does. In my experience with hundreds of six gallon carboys and large pressure changes, the only thing that ever happens is that the fluid in the airlock migrates from one side of the "S" in the airlock to the other. Me? I'm sticking with airlocks til AF / MLF is complete and switching over to vented silicone bungs after that.


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## ThunderFred (Oct 29, 2018)

I use a combination of airlocks, head space eliminators and vented silicon bungs at different stages of the process. I might have to throw in an old dirty shoe for good measure. Always nice to have a variety of tools to choose from.


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## loopline (Oct 29, 2018)

ThunderFred said:


> I fill my airlocks with a sanatizer solution.



Thats irrelevant. An air bubble will touch the outside of the liquid as it passed thru and thats it, 98% of the air won't touch the sanitizer. You would have to have some sort of device that would dissolve the air into the liquid to make it effective, which isn't practical. 

Not to mention any sanitizer from k meta to any chemical will gas off or break down, its what they are made to do. So in a matter of hours/days/weeks its sterile anyway and no longer sanitizer. 



cmason1957 said:


> I think most folks use some type of sanitizer solution in the airlocks, so that using a backed-off screw cap isn't exactly the same as using an airlock. Airlock just seems like pretty simple insurance that nothing much gets into the wine. but heck, store your wine in an old dirty shoe, if you feel that's for the best. I prefer to follow the industry standard kinda thing, that's just me.



Again sanitizer is virtually useless from a science perspective. Think it thru, try it, put an air lock on a 2 liter bottle or anything and squeeze it and play with it, some simple observation goes a long way in this case. 



Johnd said:


> Agreed!!! Not to mention that a properly topped storage vessel with a properly filled airlock isn't frequently allowing air bubble to go into the vessel, if it ever does. In my experience with hundreds of six gallon carboys and large pressure changes, the only thing that ever happens is that the fluid in the airlock migrates from one side of the "S" in the airlock to the other. Me? I'm sticking with airlocks til AF / MLF is complete and switching over to vented silicone bungs after that.



I mean did you really sit and watch it 24 hours a day 7 days week for months at a time? Im not trying to be a jerk here, but Im a VERY technical person and from a science point of view that just isn't realisitic. 


~~~~~

I appreciate everyones opinion, I do. None of it really gives me any science or split text experience though. Im looking for someone to give me scientific proof, verifiable with a tool that shows that its not as good. That or someone that split tested it and tasted the difference and can say X is better then Y or they are the same. 

Im sure there is a difference, but I just don't know what. And to be honest, whats industry "standard" today wasn't 100 years ago and won't be 100 years from now. I break all sorts of rules in wine making and it turns out fine. In fact I made multiple batches last year and followed them to the text book perfect, dotting each I and crossing each T and guess what? I had some flops. This year is my 2nd year making it and I slid it more of what I would call reality. 

Im a limits person. I like to know how stuff works, inside and out. Once you understand the science and limits of each and every element, you can begin to combine them and twist them in ways you might not otherwise have thought of. Thats where Im at, I always push the limits in everythign I do. Clearly dirty shoes are outside the limits, but inside of "industry standards" there is a lot of room to play and room to play outside them too. If it tastes good when its done and its not toxic, then thats all that really matters. 

For that matter Ive followed winery tips and wine makers ideas this year that has proved better then what you find as industry standards here. For example most people say put 1 camptden table per gallon of liquid with fruit let set for 24 hours and then add yeast (of course you put other things in respectively but Im specifically speaking of kmeta/potasium metabisulfite here) Thats 30 ppm according to my bottle. A winery suggested to use 150ppm or 1g per gallon. I lost a batch last year following the 1 campden tablet method, this year I tried 2 campden or 60 ppm and almost lost it. Decided to forget "industry standard" and go for the 1g 150ppm and let set for 48 hours. Saved the batch. 

I never accept industry standard because its industry standard. I disect it and see where its required and where it can be changed to benefit. This holds true to my business and my life in all areas. 

Anyway, keep the opinons coming, but I like to label opinion and standard as opinion and standard and label science as science and realize they are 2 very different areas.


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## Johnd (Oct 29, 2018)

loopline said:


> I mean did you really sit and watch it 24 hours a day 7 days week for months at a time? Im not trying to be a jerk here, but Im a VERY technical person and from a science point of view that just isn't realisitic.



No, I didn’t, but I didn’t need to, the shift in volume of liquid from one side to the other isn’t close to sucking a bubble through when the airlock is properly filled and the carboy is topped up. In fact, it rarely ever empties the bulb. With an airlock on my carboys, there is normally a slight pressure in the vessel resulting in the water column pushing up higher on the outside air side, further exacerbating the practicality of your theory.


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## sour_grapes (Oct 29, 2018)

loopline said:


> That or someone that split tested it and tasted the difference and can say X is better then Y or they are the same.



YOU could be that person! Do a scientific split test and let us know the result!


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## Ajmassa (Oct 29, 2018)

Just because I feel like there should be more voices to support this——— I’ve never seen any negative air pressure get to the point of forcing a air bubble INTO the wine either. Negative pressure ? Sure. Evident from the levels in the “S”. But never a bubble. Not once. 
And I’d say “industry standards aren’t exactly 1 Camden per gallon. That’s just a general rule of thumb when lacking proper testing equipment. Industry standards are knowing your sulphite level and adjusting the free So2 ppm according to ph if the wine. 150 free ppm is a helluva lot tho. 
I add ZERO kmeta prior to yeast- and let it sit for months on end before dosing. I also had a low ph. And have made wine using none at all throughout the entire process too. There’s lots of variables involved in this game


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## G259 (Oct 29, 2018)

I just use water from a drinking bottle, never had a problem.


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## bstnh1 (Oct 30, 2018)

Storing your wine in a plastic jug with a loosened cap is not the same as storing it in a carboy with and airlock. The loosened cap will easily let air and oxygen in giving rise to the potential for an oxidized wine. In an s-shaped airlock, the liquid may move back and forth a bit with pressure and temperature changes, but not enough to let any air in unless, of course, there's a dramatic change in either such as a 20° drop in temp.


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## kevinlfifer (Oct 30, 2018)

I got all mine from the Primo kiosk at my Walmart. They put them on top of the recycle machine. The 4 gallons get turned in but can't be reused, thus FREE. Picked up 20 one day. Find out when the delivery/pick-up guy comes around, they will gladly give you the 4 gallon ones, less work for him.


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## kevinlfifer (Oct 30, 2018)

The air lock debate, The purpose of them is to lock air out. If you have a solution in the lock the negative pressure will suck in a little fluid, not air. To avoid too much fluid sucked in on PET carboys, I remove the lock while moving them, so the flexibility of the carboy does not suck in the fluid. I mist with Kmeta as I replace the air lock. 

Glass carboys will experience little if any negative pressure as CO2 is constantly trying to escape, even after a year of storage. I for one hate oxidized wine, so I am diligent about the fluid level in the lock, and I always use a dilute Kmeta solution, weaker than my sanitizing solution.

I took a tour of the Biltmore winery, even a 1000 gal vat had a tiny plastic air lock sticking out of the top, the same type as I use.


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## ThunderFred (Oct 30, 2018)

loopline said:


> Thats irrelevant.



Well, that pretty much sums it up. I posted my personal experience in an attempt to be helpful. Obviously I am a complete idiot because you were able to completely and absolutely dismiss my procedure in no time flat rendering my personal experience meaningless.

Congratulations on being the second smartest person on the message board. I'm sure you and CK55 are going to revolutionize the wine making hobby with your groundbreaking new concepts. Dullards like me will just have to sit back an learn from your amazing genius. Hard to believe us imbeciles have been locked into the faulty practice of using airlocks for thousands of years. Thanks for setting me straight.


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## loopline (Oct 30, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> YOU could be that person! Do a scientific split test and let us know the result!


I have some going now but it will be a year before i know.



kevinlfifer said:


> The air lock debate, The purpose of them is to lock air out. If you have a solution in the lock the negative pressure will suck in a little fluid, not air. To avoid too much fluid sucked in on PET carboys, I remove the lock while moving them, so the flexibility of the carboy does not suck in the fluid. I mist with Kmeta as I replace the air lock.
> 
> Glass carboys will experience little if any negative pressure as CO2 is constantly trying to escape, even after a year of storage. I for one hate oxidized wine, so I am diligent about the fluid level in the lock, and I always use a dilute Kmeta solution, weaker than my sanitizing solution.
> 
> I took a tour of the Biltmore winery, even a 1000 gal vat had a tiny plastic air lock sticking out of the top, the same type as I use.




Thats interesting that co2 is still trying to escape after a year. I hadnt paid attention to that. So do you not degass with a stick and just let it naturally degass during bulk storage or do you degass and that still happens?



ThunderFred said:


> Well, that pretty much sums it up. I posted my personal experience in an attempt to be helpful. Obviously I am a complete idiot because you were able to completely and absolutely dismiss my procedure in no time flat rendering my personal experience meaningless.
> 
> Congratulations on being the second smartest person on the message board. I'm sure you and CK55 are going to revolutionize the wine making hobby with your groundbreaking new concepts. Dullards like me will just have to sit back an learn from your amazing genius. Hard to believe us imbeciles have been locked into the faulty practice of using airlocks for thousands of years. Thanks for setting me straight.



Im not sure gow you got all that out of what i said. Are you having a bad day? 

I said that filling the air lock with sanatizer is not relevant to the question of will not using an air lock oxidize the wine more then using an air lock. 

I mean do you believe that using sanatizer in the air lock makes the air lock do a better job of not oxidizing?

I suppose you were saying contaminants but rhis isnt a debate avout wine making or if i think your intelegent or not, im sure you are. 

In relation to sanitizer i was saying if air is passing thru only a small portion of it touches the water. You can do research in industries and while industries do pass contaminated air thru mist to filter very few bubble it thru water. Only if its water soluble compounds. 

Further look at practical examples like a hookah. If the water completely filtered all the smoke it would filter out everything that the person is trying to smoke and why bother? You would be smoking clean air. Early it filters some as the water changes color. But thats my point. Sanatizer in water may filter some contaminants, mabye even 20% but it still would let 80% or more pass (no scientific basis on those numbers just guessing, id guess its more like 5% filter but trying to be conservative) which means i guess by all means use it. 

For me if its not going to filter like 95% or 99% then its not worth the effort and i need a better solution. That or its really not a problem. 

Which is really the core question here when you boil it down. Sure a winery or any self respecting person that wants to guarantee great wine could go all out and use head space eliminators and air locks and other tools. Im not opposed to these, i use air locks and have.

What im really asking is what can i get away with? What is the minimum effective dose? 

Some people just have to know what that boundry is so they can work up from there. 


I recok ill just have to try and see.


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## baron4406 (Oct 30, 2018)

I really don't try to wade into debates like this, please google "old time wine making" and prepare to be shocked. Also its pretty hard to oxygenate wine..................there I said it. Anecdotes? A fellow winemaker and I bought some carboys from an old timer. One we couldn't have, it had his last batch of blueberry he made. It was about 1/3 full. When he wanted a glass of wine he'd simply pour some wine out. He'd been doing this for over a year. We tasted it and it was really good. So this carboy was 1/2 full and would get agitated everytime he tapped it. Blue water bottles? Use then for blueberry wine every year, they get aged about 9 months-no problems.


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## RonObvious (Oct 31, 2018)

Loopline, I see your point that a bubble burping out an airlock doesn't seem much different than trickling out a loose lid or bung. The thing is though, I'm not so concerned about the occasional macro bubble coming in or out. I'd be more worried about what happens when the pressure is equalized inside and outside the vessel. Gasses such as oxygen will always try to flow from regions of high concentration to regions of low concentration. Given enough time, they will succeed. So with a loose lid, even if the wine is stable and the pressure inside and outside are the same, eventually enough oxygen molecules will find their way in to saturate the wine.


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## ThunderFred (Oct 31, 2018)

Kevinlfifer, sorry for my part in hijacking your thread. In hindsight, putting an exclamation point on the obvious is kind of pointless. Sorry for my part in taking things off track.

I did find the original post helpful. I have several of those 4 gallon water bottles sitting around and my carboys are all full following the recent harvest. I plan to head to my LHBS today and get some appropriatly sized bungs and put them to use. Using three of them to free up two 6 gallon carboys leaves me options to start more wine. Thanks for the tip and thanks to other who weighed in with your experience. 

Now I'll go back to quietly lurking and learning. Thanks everyone.


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## Bts (Nov 1, 2018)

I would point out that there are 2 kinds of airlocks. S locks suck air, while 3 piece locks suck liquid. Sanitizer is useless for the former, while it could plausibly be better for the latter to be sucking in sanitizer rather than 3 month old water with a dozen fruit flies in it. Which I'm pretty sure I've done without harm on several occasions, so it's probably not a big deal either way.


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## rca (Nov 1, 2018)

I looked at these in Walmart yesterday. Do the ones you use have a built in handle? Also do you use the water in your wine making process?


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## Rewam (Nov 1, 2018)

I used PET 4 gallon water bottles from Sam's Club as carboys for secondary and bulk aging. I used 3 carboys (=12 gal) for 2 juice bucket batches (=12 gal). _*Not to be confused with those blue 5 gal water bottles that are 02 permeable. *_

I think its a great idea and I do use some types of plastic storage containers but so far not the water bottles you refer to.
I am not familiar with the type of bottles you are referring to and we do not have "Sams Club" where I am.
Can you please explain what those "blue" bottles are and how to tell which plastic bottles are safe?
Many thanks


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## G259 (Nov 1, 2018)

LOL, so much hate here, have a glass and mellow out!


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## rca (Nov 2, 2018)

kevinlfifer said:


> I got all mine from the Primo kiosk at my Walmart. They put them on top of the recycle machine. The 4 gallons get turned in but can't be reused, thus FREE. Picked up 20 one day. Find out when the delivery/pick-up guy comes around, they will gladly give you the 4 gallon ones, less work for him.


 I checked the Primo kiosk today at Walmart. I only saw options for 3 and 5 gallon Carboys. Am I missing something?


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## Burton Kent (Nov 3, 2018)

loopline said:


> If you really stop and think this thru your answer isnt logical. As air pressure and environmwnt changes air flows in and out of an air lock.
> 
> For example go read all the posts of people who ask if their wine is ok when they seal their car boy with a solid bung and it gets pushed out as pressure changes.
> 
> Air flowing into a carboy due to pressure and environment and temperature change will pass thru the water as an air bubble. Force it to happen by squeezing a bottle and watch.



You're not as smart as you think.

If your carboy is topped up the amount of change in pressure is negligible. Even if you did have some bubbles coming through that's nothing like having a free exchange of air.

Go ahead though and see the results yourself. We'll wait. Ferment one with an air lock and one without.

That being said, if someone is using PET I'd recommend not moving it except for racking. The flexibility will mix air when handled.


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## bstnh1 (Nov 3, 2018)

Wine making is both an art and a science. It can involve some carefully controlled physical or chemical processes and it can also involve subjective experiences. The two are not mutually exclusive and all of us use both in every batch we make. Because of the subjective nature of wine making. any scientific experiment will be clouded by subjective interpretation of the results. Taste, color, clarity, etc. are all subjective based upon our sensory observations. You can do all the scientific studies you want, but in the end what scientifically is deemed to be an outstanding wine might taste like rotgut to some of us.


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## GaDawg (Nov 3, 2018)

G259 said:


> LOL, so much hate here, have a glass and mellow out!



If you really want to stir the pot, just tell them you age wine in bottles...lol


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## kevinlfifer (Nov 5, 2018)

The 4 gallon bottles get left there or put in the machine for the discount coupon, but they cannot be used again, The rep will be glad to set them aside for you so he does not have to dispose of them.


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