# Lalvin RC212 & N requirements



## jet (Apr 30, 2011)

The documentation for this yeast says that it has high nitrogen requirements. What exactly does that mean in practical terms (i.e. how do I make sure I meet those requirements)? I'm sure there is a technical ppm FAN requirement, but I am looking for something a little more real-world for the home winemaker.

TIA


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## Tom (Apr 30, 2011)

1/2tsp of yeast nutrient per gallon


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## jet (Apr 30, 2011)

Tom said:


> 1/2tsp of yeast nutrient per gallon



I assume that's an extra 1/2t, since the standard dosage is 1t/gl.


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## Tom (Apr 30, 2011)

yes 1/2 tsp more in the begining. Extra will not hurt it as will settle out.
DO NOT add during fermentation as you will get a volcano.


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## jet (May 1, 2011)

Tom said:


> yes 1/2 tsp more in the begining. Extra will not hurt it as will settle out.
> DO NOT add during fermentation as you will get a volcano.



That shouldn't be a problem. I always add all the nutrient along with the meta and everything else the night before I pitch the yeast.

Thanks


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## djrockinsteve (May 1, 2011)

Skeeter pee is the only must I add nutrient half in beginning and half later on and yes add slowly if during fermentation. A volcano is a big possibility.

All other wines I add it all up front. If you encounter a tough wine to ferment dry you may add a teaspoon (6 gallons) of super ferment when it reaches 1.000 if you wish it to be real dry.


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## jet (Jun 27, 2011)

I cannot say if it was nutrient related, but my first experiences with RC212 were not good.

I started with a merlot. I used a full dose of DAP and 1.5x of yeast nutrient. At pressing, it had a significant H2S stink. The following week I started a cab (my original plan was a blend). For it, I upped it to a 2x dose of nutrient, but still had the same result. Cap temp only made it into the low 80's, so heat should not have been an issue.


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## JohnT (Jun 27, 2011)

I use rc-212 on most of my reds. In the beginning, I also had some of the H2s problems. Cured this by giving the wine a "double dose" of fermax. Since then, H2S problems have been very rare occurences.


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## robie (Jun 27, 2011)

That yeast definietly needs to be fed. To make a starter, I use Go-Ferm. To feed the yeast later on, I use Fermaid K. There are other good products available from different mfg.

Lots of times it is the timing of when you apply the nutrients. If you add it all up front, you could easily have a problem after about day 4 or 5. (That sounds like what may have happened to you.) If you add too late in fermentation, it will likely not be used up and will ultimately get racked out. It is not good to have a nutrient hanging around for something else to munch on it later on.

Just be sure to follow the directions on the nutrient. Don't make the mistake in thinking all is well just because lots of foaming and bubbling is taking place; feed when it is time to feed.


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## jet (Jun 27, 2011)

I added all the DAP and yeast nutrient before pitching the yeast. I have never had an issue doing this with whites, but these two batches were my first reds. The yeast nutrient is the house brand from my LHBS, and the only instruction it has is dosage.

They both started fine, with only slight warning signs prior to pressing. I pressed the merlot after 3.5 days and the cab after 4.5.


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## djrockinsteve (Jun 27, 2011)

I have not encountered any problems with the Lalvin yeasts. I do stir them often to release extra CO2 and I do add my nutrient up front.

When I have fermented my reds they are almost always at cooler temps. Not sure if that might help as fermentation would be a bit slower.


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## jet (Jun 28, 2011)

I thought higher temps were supposed to help with extraction in reds. That is why I waited for warmer weather. I stayed within the optimum temp range, so I thought it would be fine.

I have been reading all I can on RC212 and nutrition. Opinions run the whole spectrum, from the guy who condemns nutrients as newfangled, interventionist winemaking to the guy who uses a full dose at pitching and 1/2 dose every day until SG 1.020, all the way to the guy who says no amount of conventional is sufficient and you must use a high octane nutrient/energizer. At this point, I am totally confused, and I still have two batches I'm trying to save.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 28, 2011)

Why not find a different strain? This one sounds troublesome.


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## ibglowin (Jun 28, 2011)

I used RC-212 last year on my 200lbs of Cab Sauv and Merlot from fresh grapes. I rehydrated with Go-Ferm, added Opti-Red as well as Fermaid-K to the must. No problems of any sort. Wine is very fruit forward with a wonderful bouquet and mouthfeel.

I just bought 8 pack more for this year. Very happy with the results. YMMV as they say.


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## jet (Jun 28, 2011)

Midwest Vintner said:


> Why not find a different strain? This one sounds troublesome.


I just want to make every reasonable effort to ID the cause of my problem. I don't want to blame the yeast and next season have the same problem with a different strain because the yeast was not to blame.



It seems these days, the more I read, the more I learn how little I know. The Scott Labs Handbook says that DAP should never be added early in fermentation.


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## djrockinsteve (Jun 28, 2011)

Boy you ain't kidding. The more I learn the less I know. I agree find the cause and fix it. I use a variety of lalvin yeasts and no problems. To my advantage maybe is stirring often maybe 6 times a day. Gentle stirs. Plus I prefer to ferment at cool temps. (skeeter pees exempt). 

You could if you haven't already is download the free book by Lum Eisenman Home Wine Making Manual. You can find the link on our home page. An older book but excellent knowledge. Again the more you learn......


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## deboard (Jun 28, 2011)

I must just be lucky, I've used RC212 twice now, once on my syrah bucket from Midwest, and just recently on half of my Corot Noir pail from Walkers. Both times I had no problems, but I did put a good dose of yeast nutrient in.


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## jet (Jun 28, 2011)

djrockinsteve said:


> Boy you ain't kidding. The more I learn the less I know. I agree find the cause and fix it. I use a variety of lalvin yeasts and no problems. To my advantage maybe is stirring often maybe 6 times a day. Gentle stirs. Plus I prefer to ferment at cool temps. (skeeter pees exempt).
> 
> You could if you haven't already is download the free book by Lum Eisenman Home Wine Making Manual. You can find the link on our home page. An older book but excellent knowledge. Again the more you learn......



I'm kind of a geek and read just about anything wine related I can get my hands on. The problem I'm facing now is conflicting info. I was using DAP based on a Winemaker mag recommendation, then today I read the Scott Labs handbook that says never add DAP near the beginning of fermentation. Based on recent events, I'm inclined to believe Scott Labs, but I'd rather not have to ruin a batch or two to find out who I can trust.


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## Midwest Vintner (Jun 29, 2011)

jet said:


> I'm kind of a geek and read just about anything wine related I can get my hands on. The problem I'm facing now is conflicting info. I was using DAP based on a Winemaker mag recommendation, then today I read the Scott Labs handbook that says never add DAP near the beginning of fermentation. Based on recent events, I'm inclined to believe Scott Labs, but I'd rather not have to ruin a batch or two to find out who I can trust.



You and me both. lol. I don't trust the mag's that well either, but some typically have some articles written by people in the industry with real knowledge. Gotta weed through what's truth and what's not. I too use mostly lalvin yeasts. I have had only a few h2s problems ever, which were caused by specific things in a batch and not consecutive.


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## Lurker (Jun 30, 2011)

I have used 212 quite a few times in the past, less now but never had a problem with it. Had I had a problem one time, I would never use it again. There are just too many diff. yeasts to stick with one that has given me a problem. I have been using Premier Cuvee a lot lately. It is a little slower and takes a little longer with less foam, but I like that. Yes, I do use nutrient.


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## jet (Jun 30, 2011)

Midwest Vintner said:


> You and me both. lol. I don't trust the mag's that well either, but some typically have some articles written by people in the industry with real knowledge. Gotta weed through what's truth and what's not. I too use mostly lalvin yeasts. I have had only a few h2s problems ever, which were caused by specific things in a batch and not consecutive.


I previously gave Winemaker mag more credibility than the internet but less than books. The article in question *looked* OK. I've used DAP several times with white juice and other strains. I'm not sure if it was the grape solids that pushed it over the edge or the specific yeast.

At this point, I'm pointing the finger at the DAP.


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## jet (Jul 3, 2011)

Just happened to be looking back thru my notes and I came across my other major failure, which was a mead. Three little letters jumped off the screen at me, *D-A-P*. At this point, I'm now ready to burn that witch at the stake!


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## FlashJT (Oct 6, 2012)

I realize this is an old thread, but after searching hight and low for information this morning, this thread seems like the best fit for my question and I'm not a fan of creating a whole new thread for a similar question....so here goes:

I started my first kit red wine Thursday night (10/4/12). It's a Wine Expert Italian Amarone, and uses Lalvin RC212. I follwed the directions exactly with no deviations. When I checked on it this morning (Saturday 10/6 - 36 hours after pitching yeast), I could hear the yeast going strong. The sound coming from the primary is the same is you would hear from a soda that's just been poured. However, there was also a VERY STRONG sulfur odor. 

I've never had sulfur problems with my wines in the past (even with Skeeter Pee, which I suppose is supposed to be prone to sulfur problems). What really concerns me is that this is occuring after only 36 hours!?! That seems quick for sulfur problems to start creeping in, doesn't it? Fermentation temperature is 73F, so I don't think the yeast are strained because of the temp.

Being that this is a kit wine, should I do anything at this point? I whipped up the must really good to try and dissipate the sulfur and add oxygen for the yeast. My gut is telling me that I should add some yeast nutrient ASAP to help these guys out, but since it's a kit I'm fearful of doing anything that's not in the instructions.

I've e-mailed the folks at Wine Expert, but not sure they'll respond to me until Monday at the earliest. Usually seems like sulfur problems are most easily solved when caught early, so I'm hoping you guys have some ideas for me to try in the mean time. The sulfur smell wasn't there last night when I did the daily stir and bag-push-down, so it's definitely early in the sulfur game. 

Just hope this doesnt ruin the wine. This is the most expensive kit I've tried by far, so I'd hate for it to be a dissapointment.


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## FlashJT (Oct 7, 2012)

Well, for better or worse, I decided to add some DAP. Never had a batch of wine put off a sulfur smell like this so I'm kind of panicking and had to do something. I've whipped it a couple of times today to try and get the sulfur out of the liquid. Seems to help some, but over the course of the day it seemed to go back to where it started. 

The fermentation is just going nuts. It started out at 1.090 48 hours ago, was down to 1.080 this morning, and as of a few minutes ago it was down to 1.060. 20 points in 12 hours? Holy cow! Assume the rapid fermentation could have something to do with the smell do, but the fermentation temperature is only around 76F now, so not terribly warm.

I'm stumped. Hopefully things improve otherwise this is on track to be a very disappointing kit.


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## FlashJT (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm just going to take over this thread and use it all for myself  Lol. Sorry to keep posting, but I wanted to provide an update on how this is going, because I seriously hate going into a thread where someone just disappears and never says if their recipe turned out ok, or if their solution to a problem worked. So here goes:

I added 6tsp of DAP last night (1tsp per gallon) around 2am and stirred vigorously with my degassing tool. Still stunk horribly when I went to bed, but I'm happy to report that the smell seems to have gone down DRASTICALLY over the last 8 hours. The room is no longer overpowering with sulfur smell when you walk in, and even putting my nose right up to the primary it's a night and day difference. 

So, here's to hoping the DAP solved the problem and things will be smooth sailing from here on out. This will be my final post in this thread unless the problem resurfaces in the future.


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