# To sorbate or not to sorbate, that is the question?



## sgift (Nov 18, 2014)

When doing dry wines is there any good reason to add this chemical? It seems to produce a strong bubble gum taste and smell.
Is there really a risk requiring this insurance? Thanks in advance.....


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## shoebiedoo (Nov 18, 2014)

I never do. you just have to MAKE SURE it's fermented all the way before you bottle.


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## ibglowin (Nov 18, 2014)

Its an "insurance policy" in case you are not paying attention and you don't ferment to completely dry. As long as you practice good sanitization and your sure its fermented to dry its optional. NOT optional if you add an F-Pack etc.


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## sgift (Nov 18, 2014)

Get the F pack......what about chaptalisation? Doing Amarone kit now, readings down to .993....sorbate?


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## Rocky (Nov 18, 2014)

Sgift, is this a kit that chaptalizes at the beginning of fermentation or part way through the fermentation cycle? I have a triple batch of WinExpert Amarone on at present which called for chaptalizing when the SG hit 1.020. Is this what you are making? I split the batch into a one 5 gallon and two 6 gallon carboys during the secondary phase of fermentation and added raisins to the two 6 gallon carboys. The SG of the 5 gallon is at 0.991 (I did not add sorbate) and the SG of the "raisined" Amarone is at about 0.997. The instructions call for bottling when the SG is at 0.998 or less. I plan to bulk age the wine for at least 9 months, more likely 12. I just tasted the raisined Amarone and it is really nice (and has a real kick).


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## seth8530 (Nov 18, 2014)

Sorbate is used if you want to add a sugar back to a wine after it is done fermenting and it is clear. If used in the proper dosage it should not affect the flavor profile. 

So, if you intend on keeping the wine dry, their really is not a need for sorbate.


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## sgift (Nov 19, 2014)

Rocky
I am making the same WE kit and it is at .993. Are you going to add the sorbate provided in the kit? I wish I could bulk age but in Florida it will be at room temp., in the bottle it will be at 55 degrees. Thanks


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## Rocky (Nov 19, 2014)

sgift said:


> Rocky
> I am making the same WE kit and it is at .993. Are you going to add the sorbate provided in the kit? I wish I could bulk age but in Florida it will be at room temp., in the bottle it will be at 55 degrees. Thanks



No, I do not intend to use sorbate in either wine. I almost never use sorbate for many of the same reasons stated above by other members.

Bulk aging in the bottle will give you the same results as bulk aging in a carboy. I find the primary advantage of bulk aging in a carboy is that the wine is easier to work with should you have to do something to it before bottling, such as add a flavor, sweeten, etc.


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## Turock (Nov 19, 2014)

We use alot of sorbate because most of our wines are backsweetened and in 25 years we've never experienced bubblegum flavor. The only time that happens is when you over-dose sorbate.

Be aware that your wine HAS to have most of the yeast cells racked off of it and the wine very clear before using it. And be sure to dissolve it in a little water before adding.


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## ibglowin (Nov 19, 2014)

Yea, so that statement is absolutely NOT true.

When I was first starting out I made several white wines from kits. Mosti Mondial in fact. I added only the supplied package of Sorbate to a dry wine as I was just starting out and following directions to a T. 

After adding the package of Sorbate I had 6 gallons of bubble gum flavored Chardonnay. It took another 9 months for that flavor profile to fade away in the bottle.



Turock said:


> The only time that happens is when you over-dose sorbate.


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## seth8530 (Nov 19, 2014)

I would not be surprised if it was an over dose of sorbate to be honest. I say this because kits are designed for wine making made stupid easy, so I would not be surprised if the kit manufacturer was a little heavy handed with the sorbate as an extra level of insurance for the quick turn around market of the kit world. Or it could have been the "dreaded kit taste".

Honestly, I would be surprised if a tried and true engineered wine making additive, which is in wide spread use across the industry ,would turn peoples wine into alcoholic bubble gum wine, if used in the correct amounts... Does not sound like a good business model if you ask me....

So, to bounce it back to you.. 




> When I was first starting out I made several white wines from kits. Mosti Mondial in fact. I added only the supplied package of Sorbate to a dry wine as I was just starting out and following directions to a T.
> 
> After adding the package of Sorbate I had 6 gallons of bubble gum flavored Chardonnay. It took another 9 months for that flavor profile to fade away in the bottle.



This statement is absolutely NOT true.


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## botigol (Nov 19, 2014)

According to Tim Vandergrift, sorbate also prevents the growth of spoilage organisms. 

I have only used sorbate a handful of times or so, but I haven't experienced the bubblegum taste when using it.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 19, 2014)

seth8530 said:


> Honestly, I would be surprised if a tried and true engineered wine making additive, which is in wide spread use across the industry ,would turn peoples wine into alcoholic bubble gum wine, if used in the correct amounts... Does not sound like a good business model if you ask me....
> 
> So, to bounce it back to you..
> 
> ...




Seth, you may want to review your Karl Popper.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Scientific_Discovery



> Popper argues that science should adopt a methodology based on falsifiability, because no number of experiments can ever prove a theory, but a single experiment can contradict one.


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## tanddc (Nov 19, 2014)

sour_grapes said:


> Seth, you may want to review your Karl Popper.
> 
> From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Scientific_Discovery



I would argue this is a not germane to this conversation as both sides have added the sorbate and claimed to have different results. I think we need a true blind taste test to determine the truth. Everyone should ship their wine to me and I will taste them all.


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## grapeman (Nov 19, 2014)

According to Lum Eisenman the author of The Homewinemaker's Manual:

 *Potassium Sorbate (Sorbate)*​ Potassium sorbate is used to stabilize wines containing residual sugar. The sorbate does​ not stop the yeast from fermenting the sugar, but it can prevent the yeast cells from reproducing.​ Consequently, sorbate is only effective when most of the active yeast cells have been removed​ from the wine by racking or filtering. The usual procedure for using potassium sorbate is to​ clarify, stabilize and age the wine. Then the wine is sweetened, and the sorbate is added at​ bottling time. Potassium sorbate will not stop active fermentations. For most people, the taste​ threshold of sorbate is 200 or 300 milligrams per liter of wine. However, some people are more​ sensitive to the taste of sorbate, and a small fraction of the population can detect less than 50​ milligrams per liter. Fortunately for the winemaker, many people sensitive to sorbate do not find​ its bubble-gum taste objectionable in wine. The normal dose level is 200 to 250 milligrams of​ potassium sorbate for each liter of wine. If too little sorbate is added, the wine may start​ fermenting again. If too much sorbate is added, the quality of the wine may be adversely affected.​ Dose levels of more than 250 mg/l can produce noticeable changes in wine taste and smell.

Back to grapeman................
So if the average wine has 200 to 250 ppm in it, and a small percentage of the population can detect 50 ppm, then that small percentage of people (Ibglowin) will smell it and may or may not be bothered by the bubblegum. My guess is he hated Hubba Bubba Bubble gum.


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## ibglowin (Nov 19, 2014)

I bought so many packs of baseball cards when I was a kid and chewed every stick of gum that came with each pack so yea, I got sick of that taste at a very early age!


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## sgift (Nov 19, 2014)

Turock,

I used the amount provided in three WE kits and one RJS kit, only one was with a K pack. ALL have the unmistakable taste and smell of bubblegum.....it's very objectionable in wine, although I liked bubblegum once upon a time. It masks the true flavors that may be present. I have tasted it only once in a commercial wine and didn't like it. Interesting that there are so many conflicting opinions. In another post I raised the issue of what caused this taste and it was uniformly informed it was the sorbate. Bubblegum is not a taste I want in my dry red wine or any wine actually.


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## Turock (Nov 20, 2014)

I have a question---exactly HOW much sorbate is in these packets? Has anyone ever measured it? The dose for sorbate is 1/2 tsp per gallon. We never use more than that and like I said before--I have never tasted bubblegum in any of our wines and I have a pretty sensitive pallete.

sgift--I have no doubt that the flavor is because of an over dose of sorbate. I would not just add the whole packet of sorbate again, to future kits. Measure it out for the quantity of wine you have.


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## ibglowin (Nov 20, 2014)

Mosti Mondiale packages 4 grams per package for 6 gallons. Cellar Craft (now Vineco) packages 5.5 grams per package for 6 gallons.


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## wineforfun (Nov 20, 2014)

This is good to know(only sorbate after wine is very clear) as some of my wines I have added it before it is clear, ie: Dragon Blood. 
Dave's recipe calls for adding K-Meta, sorbate and Sparklloid all in one step. 

I believe this was also true with my RJS OVZ and Super Tuscan kits. If I recall they had you add it along with the K-Meta, chitosan and kieselsol.


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## Turock (Nov 20, 2014)

That seems to be of no help as 1/2 tsp is about 3 grams!!! If anything, it seems these packets are LOW on doseage for 6 gallons.


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## grapeman (Nov 20, 2014)

Turock said:


> That seems to be of no help as 1/2 tsp is about 3 grams!!! If anything, it seems these packets are LOW on doseage for 6 gallons.




Do we know they use the same K-sorbate as the rest of us? Their formulation may be different than we all buy. After all we do recommend that you add the proper dose as instructed on the bag label. LD Carlson's sorbate may be different than XYZ Company. Just a thought.


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## ibglowin (Nov 20, 2014)

No we do not. The packages are all sorta generically marked as "Sorbate" or "Potassium Sorbate". I have always wondered if Mosti Mondiale used something different as it was the main culprit for me. I have always added the package of Sorbate on any white wine (kit) that came with an F-pack of sorts and I never noticed the bubble gum aroma or taste but those have always been Cellar Craft, RJ Spagnols and WE. 

Since they were all back sweetened the bubble gum taste could have been pushed to the background so much that you just can't pick it up anymore.


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## sgift (Nov 21, 2014)

I would like to hear from folks who make dry wines. Do you pick up this aroma and taste after adding sorbate? If you did, does eliminating it remove the problem? If so any problems after aging? My assumption is full fermentation and good sanitation..... If you have used and detected the bubblegum mask, does it fade or integrate? How long might that take? Questions, questions, love to hear all this info.....thx in advance!


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## seth8530 (Nov 21, 2014)

Well, if you are working with dry wine, then sorbate really is not needed.


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## Turock (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes to what Seth said. If your wine is completely dry with no residual sugar, you don't need sorbate. And of course, never sorbate a wine that has gone thru MLF.


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## sgift (Nov 21, 2014)

Doesn't MLF happen during secondary and doesn't every kit recommend adding it after secondary?


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## ibglowin (Nov 21, 2014)

You don't do MLF on any Kit. Kits are already balanced by the manufacturer. MLF is called a "secondary fermentation" of sorts.

Kit manufacturers coined the term "secondary" so it was easier to follow their directions. The term secondary is when you move the wine to glass or a better bottle etc from the "primary" or bucket. It does not mean there is any "secondary fermentation" going on. Its the same fermentation you started with, its just now finishing out in another vessel with an airlock and no headspace.


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