# critique/inputs for blackberry wine



## vernsgal

In 2 weeks I'm planning on making my 1st blackberry wine.Is my recipe missing anything or wrong in amounts.It's for 3 gal.
18 lbs blackberries
7 lbs sugar
1 1/2 tsp.pectic enzyme
1 tsp acid blend
3 tsp nutrient
sparkolloid
1/4 tsp k-meta
1 1/2 tsp k-sorbate
yeast Lalvin EC-1118

place fruit in nylon bag,sqeeze gently in primary.Add 1 gal warm water,pectic enzyme,acid blend and nutrient.Boil 1/2 gal. of water,add sugar and add to primary.Add remaining water to 3 1/2gal.Test SG.1.085-1.090 Wait 24 hours and pitch yeast.Mix and sqeeze nylon bag twice a day until SG=1.015.Rack to carboy and finish fermenting to .990 Add K-meta and sorbate,and degas wine. Add sparkolloid ,when clear add f-pak. Bulk age 3 months add another 1/4 tsp k meta and bottle.Age 
Did I miss anything?Too much? Should I add anything?oak?chocolate?coffee?
All inputs are appreciated.
Thanks everyone Kim


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## vernsgal

stupid typo. name is supposed to be below the thanks everyone


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## Turock

This wine will probably NOT need acid blend. Most blackberries have TOO much acid right from the beginning. It's important to have a PH meter when making this wine because you need to adjust the PH--which usually starts around 2.8 or 2.9---with calcium carbonate to a PH of about 3.4

The acid on blackberry is malic--a very harsh acid. So a good culture for them is 71B because it metabolizes some of the malic--about 20%---which makes a smoother wine without the resulting harshness that can be leftover when using other cultures.

Adding water will dilute this wine, producing a very light-tasting blackberry. When we make this wine, we use 10 pounds per gallon and use no water. This gives a big-flavored wine that tastes just like the fruit. Because we use high poundage, the wine can be very dense, so use bentonite in the primary to give the wine more clarity.

I'm against manual degassing of non-kit wines. We rack the lees off, then allow it to age for at least 9 months. By that time, the CO2 is gone and the wine is clear. Wines need to age up and stablize before sweetening and sorbate additions. Stablization is achieved only when the bulk of the yeast cells are racked off. Only then will sorbate work correctly. Don't be in a hurry with this wine--let it age up and generate its flavors. There is no way you should be adding sorbate when you rack to the secondary--this is totally wrong.

E C Kraus has a real nice discertation on sorbate in the blog section of their website. You should do some reading on proper use of sorbate so you understand how it works and when to use it.


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## TommBomb

Hey turok, forgive me I don't understand. What do u use to top up the primary fermentor if not water?


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## jamesngalveston

If I would have made my blackberry according to the directions giving. I would probably throw it away.
Recipes are just that, and a lot of information is left out.
A grilled steak recipe tells how to grill steak, but not how to light the grill.
I wish I would have found this forum a month ago.


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## vernsgal

Thanks turok for your input. I understand adding water waters down the wine but I am just looking for a medium bodied outcome though so wouldn't some water be needed? I am a total newbie on fruit wine making since all past wines have been done with kits, that's why I thought I'd put out my recipe 1st and get mistakes and inputs added before beginning.The basics of this recipe I got from this site.I have been reading and taking notes now for months (and obviously have sooo much more to learn) (also note taken on removing acid blend)this is why this site is so good.It helps newbs like me


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## vernsgal

jamesngalveston said:


> If I would have made my blackberry according to the directions giving. I would probably throw it away.
> Recipes are just that, and a lot of information is left out.
> A grilled steak recipe tells how to grill steak, but not how to light the grill.
> I wish I would have found this forum a month ago.


I don't believe I asked for criticism


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## Julie

jamesngalveston said:


> If I would have made my blackberry according to the directions giving. I would probably throw it away.
> Recipes are just that, and a lot of information is left out.
> A grilled steak recipe tells how to grill steak, but not how to light the grill.
> I wish I would have found this forum a month ago.


 


vernsgal said:


> I don't believe I asked for criticism


 
She is right jamesngalveston, she asked for help not to be disrespected.


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## Julie

Besides what Turock has said, I wouldn't add 7 pounds of sugar, I would take a reading of the juice and add enough sugar to bring sg approx. 1.080.

Sugar levels in fruit will vary year by year, no two growing seasons are exact thus sugar levels will be different. So when you have a recipe that states how much sugar to add, it is based on the year the fruit was produced and that is what was needed to bring the sg to the desired level.

I won't go over 12% ABV on this and I would think about oaking it.


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## seth8530

Yeah, take out the acid blend, try out some oak cubes, and watch your sugar content.


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## oldwhiskers

There's a lot of knowledgeable people here and differing opinions, but there is a definate need to test the PH, TA and SG of the must. Sometimes making a small batch as a test run helps prove your recipe.


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## jamesngalveston

I meant no disrespect at all. I was talking about my recipe I used, Not yours......
I made my first batch exactly like directions and it was a disaster.

I found out later, i did not need the acid blend with blackberries.
And i did not need the pectic enzyme with pure juice.


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## jamesngalveston

I did not mean any disrespect at all.
I was talking about my recipe, not yours.
I followed mine to the tea, and it was horrible.
I later found out that I did not need the acid blend because blackberries have so much malic acid all ready.
I did not need the pectic enzyme, because I was using pure juice, not whole fruit.
And i did not add enough sugar. even though following recipe.
Sorry ...did not mean to offend


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## BernardSmith

It seems to me that the important point that I get from all these discussions is that recipes themselves are really only useful as starting points, as ways of capturing principles rather than as treasure maps to be followed precisely so that you will always find the buried cask. It seems to me that the important thing is to aim for certain targets - the level of alcohol (the amount of sugar), the level of acidity, the richness of flavor (the amount of fruit/gallon) and the like - and those targets are always going to be based on the fruits and juices that you have here and now, coupled with the taste that you prefer and you enjoy. The berries you have may be incredibly rich in sugars and juice and acids or the berries I have may not be. You may prefer your wine sweeter but less fruity, someone else may like it more dry and more fruity, another may prefer it more acidic and much sweeter. Others may want the buzz of a higher ABV and simply use the fruit as a vehicle for the alcohol...


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## Julie

BernardSmith said:


> It seems to me that the important point that I get from all these discussions is that recipes themselves are really only useful as starting points, as ways of capturing principles rather than as treasure maps to be followed precisely so that you will always find the buried cask. It seems to me that the important thing is to aim for certain targets - the level of alcohol (the amount of sugar), the level of acidity, the richness of flavor (the amount of fruit/gallon) and the like - and those targets are always going to be based on the fruits and juices that you have here and now, coupled with the taste that you prefer and you enjoy. The berries you have may be incredibly rich in sugars and juice and acids or the berries I have may not be. You may prefer your wine sweeter but less fruity, someone else may like it more dry and more fruity, another may prefer it more acidic and much sweeter. Others may want the buzz of a higher ABV and simply use the fruit as a vehicle for the alcohol...



Thank you BernardSmith, you hit that nail dead on!


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## jamesngalveston

I have never been one to follow others, I like my own direction better.
I agree with all you said .
I recieved my supplies today for 2 5 gallon batches.
5 gallons of dragon blood, I had a chemist come and do the measurements for 5 gallon, vs 6 gallon from whole fruit.
I am also starting 5 gallons of strawberry/blackberry from juice.
Now that I have a few weeks of questions answered here, and 2 weeks of reading...Im ready to try my own hand.
Thing is....I want more buckets and carboys and fruit.
This maybe a hobby after all.
Thanks for the info.


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## vernsgal

Thanks everyone for the inputs. I will be picking up a PH meter tester before starting.Bernardsmith I think you got it! I read this somewhere while surfing and took note of it "it's important to remember that the way a bottled wine tastes is about the relationship of things like pH and TA to other factors like alcohol, tannin, extract and sweetness. There's no chemical formula to make great wine—not yet, anyway."
I will be starting this in 2 weeks and will definitely keep posted. Mostly because I'll have more questions I'm sure. lol


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## Turock

There is no need to top up the fermenter. When we make fruit wines, we always freeze the fruit first because it yields a lot of juice. There is no need for water, then. 

We stopped using recipes many,many years ago. Recipes are OK to follow when you're a new wine maker just to get the process under your belt. But recipes don't make great wines. To make great wines, you need to go "off recipe." Most of the time you are upping your poundage and eliminating water additions because those 2 things really give you a delicious wine.

However, water still has its uses. Red raspberry comes out much better when you use the old standard recipe with the water addition.


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## Turock

vernsgal---Well, if you want to add water to yield 3 gallons because you want a medium bodied wine, I guess you can go that way. I always look at this wine the way we've been doing it for 20 years and not with the eyes of a new winemaker. You should do it the way YOU want to. Then you can evaluate it and see if you like it that way or move to doing it with no water.

I'm glad you asked for help BEFORE approaching this wine instead of asking for help trying to adjust it post ferment. Blackberry is one of those wines that if you DON'T properly adjust the acid pre-ferment, you'll never be able to adjust it afterward because that dictates the use of POTASSIUM carbonate and you can't use that much of it to move the PH by several tenths. It's only to be used for tweaking.

So it's very good for you to understand,while you're a brand new winemaker, that all adjustments--on EVERYTHING you ferment---needs to be done pre-ferment. Then you won't have problem wines that you're trying to fix in the post-ferment. Designing your wine happens at the primary--it's the only GOOD chance you have at making your wine turn out perfect. So adjust the PH of this wine with CALCIUM carbonate--be careful with it--you can over-shoot the PH. Add very small amounts--like 1/4 tsp--at a time. Stir very well--retest. When you begin to approach your target PH, add smaller amounts. Use your hydrometer to set your brix. Split your nutrient---so the yeast is constantly fed thru the ferment. Good luck--hope this turns out good for you.


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## SBWs

This is a very interesting thread, I've enjoyed reading the comments. When I started out in the hobby 3 years ago it was to make a blackberry wine from all the wild blackberries that grow around here. In 3 years I've learned a lot but by all means I'm still not where I want to be with my blackberry wine.

Here are a few things I've learned that have improved on the outcome.
1. Never hurts to add 1 banana per gallon (adds body)
2. pH should be between 3.4 and 3.7 (I like 3.6 to start, can always add acid easier then taking it away later and I normally add a f-pac made from steamed juice which adds acid )
3. More fruit is good until it starts effecting the acid to a point where it's hard to get to the proper pH. In my opinion, proper pH is by far more important in the end than using more fruit, it's all about balance. 
4. Lalvin 71B-1122 as someone already mentioned.
5. Needs to be aged, not a early drinker by any means.
6. Hungarian Medium Toast Oak (this is a personal taste thing)
7. Use eggs whites as a clearing agent, they do wonders with blackberry wine in softening the bitterness (I use powdered egg whites found in the local supermarket)
8. Glycerine can be used to aid astringency and body.

While some of these are more in the line of tricks to fix wines, they are good to know when starting out. 

Good Luck


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## BernardSmith

*topping up after racking?*

TE=TommBomb;423304]Hey turok, forgive me I don't understand. What do u use to top up the primary fermentor if not water?[/QUOTE]

Obviously, I cannot speak for Turock but one of the things I do is to make slightly more than say the three or five gallons I want and so I have some additional wine which I store in the fridge from which I can top up the carboy after I have racked. Other people talk of adding similar wines to replace the lost volume and others use glass marbles. Another way would be to use smaller carboys (so rack from five to a three gallon plus additional sized bottles and carboys). and I don't know how wise this is but I have seen many photos of carboys that have not been topped up because presumably the wine maker is relying on the constant production of CO2 to act as a protective blanket.


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## seth8530

Yah, i tend to topp off with a similar wine... but, using marbles would not be bad..


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## vernsgal

this has been great so far. I'm getting totally impatient to get this started but will wait
(I'm going away for 10 days later this week and won't leave anything in primarys unattended.)SBWs, you mentioned using egg whites as a clearing agent , I seem to recall seeing this before but not really knowing anything about it. Is this common?how much would you use per gallon?Has anyone else here used egg whites?
Tomorrow I'm off to pick up some more blackberries a PH meter tester,and some calcium carbonate (in case it's needed)
Thanks again everyone


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## Turock

Blackberry clears pretty well on its own--but when you use high poundage, the wine can be pretty dense. The best way to handle it is to add bentonite to the primary. It does a fabulous job of clearing so that you won't have any clarity issues in the post ferment. I have a lot of experience using the bentonite. It really polishes the wine and we've never had a need to use other clarifiers. Just be sure to add your pectic enzyme to the must on the first day along with some meta. Second day, set brix and PH and pitch yeast and part of the nutrient. Add the bentonite on the about the third day of the ferment. Bentonite can inactivate enzymes--so this is why it's added later,after the enzyme treatment is complete.

Oh, I'm SURE you'll need the calcium carbonate--it would be very unusual not to need it for blackberries.

Vernsgal---if you make the blackberry with water as you described, you might not need the bentonite. It should clear quite well on its own within 9 months or so.


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## SBWs

I use DEB EL Just Whites 100% dried egg whites 1 tsp which is equal to 1/2 egg white for 3 gallon batches. Here is a link that explains different agents and what they are used for. I use egg whites more to help with any harshness from high tannins than to clear. This is something you won't know until your wine has aged for awhile.


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## vernsgal

SBWs said:


> I use DEB EL Just Whites 100% dried egg whites 1 tsp which is equal to 1/2 egg white for 3 gallon batches. Here is a link that explains different agents and what they are used for. I use egg whites more to help with any harshness from high tannins than to clear. This is something you won't know until your wine has aged for awhile.



Wow some of those I have never heard of ,and using blood? I think thats one I'll pass on lol (maybe someone can use it in DB and give it a new name,lol)
The egg whites for mellowing high tannins is good to know. I have to admit I did some cut and pastes from the site to add to my notes. I think on this blackberry one ,depending on if I add water or not, I'll stick with the Bentonite for clearing. Now that's not written in stone or anything but it is one I know


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## SBWs

Agree, don't think I will ever try the blood, but I have used milk and it did wonders restoring the color and flavor on a white grape peach that I left the airlock go dry and it oxidized some before I caught it. 

I use bentonite myself on just about every fruit wine I make. If you ever get a chance to read some of my blog on Country Fruit Wines you will see a lot of my recipes call for bentonite up front in the primary. I do use steamed juice most of the time so what I make is a lot like kits. Figured I'd do like the people who make kits and it work out well so I've kept on doing it.


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## Turock

If you haven't used bentonire in the past, just be aware to use the recommended amount ONLY. The directions are on the packet.


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## vernsgal

Turock said:


> If you haven't used bentonire in the past, just be aware to use the recommended amount ONLY. The directions are on the packet.



ok this is going to be fun,I'm not even out of the gate and I'm lost already.I thought I was at least choosing an option for clearing that I was familiar with(having used bentonite in all the kit wines I have made in the past).My problem is I don't have packets I have 2 2lb bags.The 1st is from spagnols and only gives directions for using in kit, the 2nd is from Global Vintners and gives no instructions. Did a search and found numerous ways of adding,from making slurries to adding x amount to water.Even the tutorial here doesn't give quantity per gal.


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## dessertmaker

1/2 to 1 Teaspoon per gallon is the usual range. The specific measurements are calculated according to the PH of the wine. Dilute the bentonite in 5 ounces of water. Without knowing anything about blackberry I'd say shoot on the low side, add 1/2 a teaspoon. You can add fining agents in the secondary if the bentonite isn't enough. I'm sure there are others who have way more experience with fining agents who can give you some more specific advice.

If you want to melt your brain, here's a more advanced article on it: http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FS/FS-53-W.pdf


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## seth8530

My favorite clearing agent is superklear, in my honest opinion that stuff works absolute miracles! I have never used bentonite in the primary though, so I can not speak for its effectiveness.


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## Turock

Vernsgal--let me see if I can make sense of this for you. If you make this according to your original plan by using water, then you should not need bentonite or clearing agents.

If you go all fruit and no water, you might want to use bentonite. Not saying you HAVE to tho. If you don't use it, the wine will be very dense but blackberry made with no water is very dark, anyway, so you may not even care about not seeing thru it.

The instructions on bentonite is 2 tbs. to 1/2 cup of warm water. Be aware that this is for 5 gallons. Reduce if making less than 5 gallons. Let it sit overnite, then add to the wine on about the 3rd day of the ferment.


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## vernsgal

Seth8530-thanks, I have used that with kit wines before ( except they just call it kieselol & chitosan) but they also always had you use bentonite in the primary so it's good to know you can use it alone .
Turok-thanks again,instruction are noted. I also was doing more online reading (like I don't do enough)and found a posting,from this site, from you saying that vanilla beans are good at the end. I think I just might add one to mine.
So impatient to get this thing going


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## seth8530

Yep yep, I am not saying it will take care of every clarity issue.. Such as pectin haze (use pectic enzyme) but its my go to agent.


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## saramc

Bentonite, when added to the primary, is meant for more than just its natural fining ability that comes into play later down the road. Bentonite up front helps create a better environment for the yeast and it also binds particles so you usually do not have an intense, volcanic, gotta clean the ceiling type of ferment. Plus you have typically dealt with the issue of heat stabilization. All by adding bentonite at the beginning. I do use my drill powered wine whip to make the slurry, or a blender. As far as how much bentonite to use, always refer to mfg recommendation. The density may vary from brand to brand, so instructions can vary. And I know Scott Labs has a bentonite/casein product, so not all are just bentonite.

Also (james in galveston take note) you always add pectic enzyme to a fruit must, regardless if juice, concentrate or actual fruit. Pectin naturally exists in most fruits, and it crosses over to juice & while the must may clear you may develop a pectin haze later & it is harder to clear a pectin haze after the ferment has finished than if you treat for it up front. Any unused pectic enzyme just drops out in the lees.

Even without bentonite, as long as you treated with pectic enzyme you should end up with a naturally clear blackberry wine. It will need to age, and should need to be cold stabilized if you added chalk to adjust pH/TA (at least I always CS with chalk use), and the CS will help facilitate clearing too. I do not use fining agents, just the preferment bentonite--though I would not hesitate to use fining agents should the need arise, but time has always taken care of things. 

I will say the description WinemakerMag gives for bentonite does a great job. A nice overview of how bentonite does its job, along with other fining agents... http://www.winemakermag.com/stories...n/26-a-clearer-understanding-of-fining-agents

The online magazine has a search engine, so if you are seeking to learn more about some winemaking topic odds are they published some answers. One of my first go-to places.

Like turock, I agree it is much easier to address pH/TA on the front end, just like addressing pectin....and a 100% blackberry wine when done right is amazing. If you can source black raspberries, a 1/2 to 1 lb per gallon, add them with your blackberries-- they add a little something something. Even 4-6 oz of blk raspberry jam in primary, per gallon, before you start adjusting SG, will work. Or www.homewinery.com offers a pint of 100% fruit concentrate, you could mix it up and have one gallon of juice to use in your batch, they carry larger sizes too--good stuff!


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## seth8530

Thanks Saramc, I learned a little bit about the uses of bentonite from your post. My only question is what exactly does bentonite have to do with heat stabilization?


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## dessertmaker

Nice article sarah! (Yours and winemaker magazine's LOL)


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## wood1954

This has been a really good thread. My first attempt at blackberry wine turned out halfway decent but got bad pretty quickly. I followed a recipe and added way too much tannin and acid, used the wrong size corks, over aerated it, didn't age it long enough. the last bottle i had was like vinegar.
so after reading lots of posts on this forum i started a batch last week only5 lbs per galon, but it will turn out ok. I did adjust the ph with calcium, didn't add any acid of course, shot for 12% alcohol, added nutirent, only fermented the berries for three days to help remove any bitterness and put it under airlock at SG 1030 to avoid any oxygen. When it's done fermenting I'll rack it into a CO2 sparged carboy with the Vacuumman pump and let it age for a year before i adjust the sweetness and then age it another year before i try it. Last week i met a guy who has been making great wine for over 25 years, he shared a bottle of 14 year old wine that was fantastic, that's the quality i'm shooting for some day. I'm only 59 so i have plenty of time to learn yet.


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## Turock

wood--sounds like you're getting your feet under you on the blackberry. Blackberry is a tough wine to make for many beginners because they don't understand NOT using acid blend and needing to use the calcium carbonate. Many new winemakers don't own a PH meter--pretty vital for blackberry--and all fruit wines. And on these malic fruits, don't forget the 71B culture. It makes blackberry much smoother because it tames the harsh malic.

Sara always gives complete instructions---she's a lover of science and has a very organized mind. She's an asset--no matter what forum you find her on. All new winemakers should rsearch the benefits of bentonite--lots of good info from many white paper sources. Once you start using bentonite, you'll be amazed how you almost never have to fuss with wines that you're trying to bottle.


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## vernsgal

Thanks Sara that site is great.It was funny you mentioned it when you did because yesterday I was at one of my wine suppliers and they threw the magazine in as a bonus.It has great Q&A's.
I think more than anything,this week, I have learned much on bentonite.There really is so much knowlege on this site for wine making.Hopefully,over time, I will absorb a portion of it.
Now I'm gone for a week and when I return I'll get this 40lb's of berries going.My PH meter I ordered should be here by then,carbonate on hand,so hopefully I'll be good to go.oh and I have 71B yeast and pectic enzyme also.


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## Turock

Experience will definitely add to your knowledge base--we just want to be sure you have enough basic knowledge before you start in order to have success. Wish every new winemaker would do more "homework" like you are doing, before starting to ferment something. You will be a very good winemaker in the future.


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## jdaker

Having made blackberry it will not turn out that deep a colour, actually very pale considering. 

Don't want to change the recipe but I would suggest a couple of litre cartons of red grape juice, in place of some of the water. Last I made I threw in a pound of blackcurrants as well.

As to clearing, get a 2 part clearing agent, they are much better then just about everything else.


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## Turock

Our blackberry is dark as night. Water dilution makes it light-colored. I wouldn't add grape juice to it--make a full-blown blackberry. It will taste exactly like the fruit. If you want to blend some with other wines before bottling, THAT would be better than adulterating the whole batch with another flavor.


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## wineon4

I have a passion for making fruit wines. I have a blackberry that is out of this world, just won Double Gold best of Show with it in a local comp. As Turroc said "high fruit". I use 12 pound per gallon I put my fruit in blender then right into the primary no fruit bags, tough job for the first rack but I think you get a better fruit flavor and the wine is a heavy bodied wine. Test your acid before adding any. I don't go by PH as much as I do with % I get my fruit wines around .65% up .80% depending on the planned sweetness of the finished wine. Higher sugar demands higher acid. Your recipe seems stable just watch the acid and as Julie said check your SG before determining the sugar amount, don't rush the finished wine.Good luck Kim


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## Turock

As I said before, blackberry is a "touchy" wine for a beginner to make. It takes special considerations for it to turn out correctly. Most of this is due to new winemakers not understanding how important acid adjustment PRE-FERMENT is. Blackberry is so acidic--if you don't adjust the acid at the outset, it's impossible to adjust it post ferment because you can't use that much potassium carbonate to move the PH many tenths. So you end up stuck with a very acidic wine that all you can do with it is to blend.

Blackberry should always have a malic metabolizing culture used on it or the resulting harshness, even with proper acid adjustment, can be rather unpleasant.

We use 10# per gallon, and wouldn't consider anything less than that.


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## saramc

seth8530 said:


> Thanks Saramc, I learned a little bit about the uses of bentonite from your post. My only question is what exactly does bentonite have to do with heat stabilization?



Read up on how to heat stabilize...bentonite plays an important role in binding those proteins IF your wine is not stable in a hot environment.


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## seth8530

Ill give that a look when I get the chance.. Kinda busy/tired with my new job as of right now lol.


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## jdaker

12lb in a gallon should make a darker wine, but the original says 18lb in 3.5 gallon. Which in fractionally over 5lb a gallon, less then half.

That is about what I used in the last blackberry I made and as said it is not the deep colour that many expect. Starts out a reasonable colour but the fermentation removes a lot. The post was for information that the end result may not be a deep colour, although I think I read that they prefer a lighter end result, (could be wrong here?)

Owing to the loss/change of colour and flavor during the fermentation and having come upon a slightly different approach I am finding I have changed the method I now use on all the fruit wines I make.


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## Turock

But you see, that's the problem when following a recipe. That's why, once you have some experience, you go "off recipe." There's only a couple fruit wines that should be made with a standard recipe and water dilution. But most of them are FAR better when you up the poundage and eliminate the water.


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## wineon4

It is tough to totaly eliminate water but in most cases you can reduce it to very minimal amounts. I make a great Banana wine and as we know Bananas have next to no natural juice so water is a needed ingredient. For my Banana I take 80lb of Bananas and peel them, blend them in a blender using welches white niagara juice as the blending liquid. Add to the primary again a 10 gallon for 6 gallon of wine because Banana makes a massive fruit cap. Top to 6 gallon using 1/2 water and 1/2 white grape. As turock said increase the fruit,and fruit wines become award winning wines.


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## spaniel

Turock said:


> But you see, that's the problem when following a recipe. That's why, once you have some experience, you go "off recipe." There's only a couple fruit wines that should be made with a standard recipe and water dilution. But most of them are FAR better when you up the poundage and eliminate the water.



I used to make 180 gallons of various fruit wines per year. The quotes post is dead on. The only exceptions that come to mind are red raspberry and perhaps gooseberry...things where you the acid will overpower the flavor if you get too much fruit in there.


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## Turock

From our experience, it isn't the acid because we always adjust the acid to an acceptable level on everything we make. It has to do with flavor. For some reason, lots of fruit for red raspberry, blueberry, black raspberry just doesn't have high flavor. These wines really need the standard recipe.


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## vernsgal

Well I just got back from holidaying,checked my post, and I have to say "WOW".(had some reading to catch up on  )Unfortunately I'm still waiting for my PH meter to arrive by post (Canada Post, so hopefully some time this year,lol) I have everything else,including 35-38 lbs of frozen blackberries (will be trying for no water dilution,if not enough juice,it's back to the shop I go) Thank you everyone for all your help and input so far.
I do believe in wine making that reading is great for everyone, but reading "experienced knowledge" is the best!


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## Turock

Welcome back.

Let me give you a little heads up on using a large amount of frozen fruit. It can take a couple days for a large amount to thaw and warm to room temp so the yeast will take off. Be sure to use the right amount of sulfite on it and layering it in to the frozen fruit is a good idea. Toss a couple pints of water on it to be sure it's somewhat dissolved.

You don't want to get any biological growth going, or your ferment will become stuck because the growth overwhelms the yeast.


----------



## vernsgal

so how much sulfite is the right amount? I don't want to use too much/not enough.


----------



## LoveTheWine

vernsgal said:


> Well I just got back from holidaying,checked my post, and I have to say "WOW".(had some reading to catch up on  )Unfortunately I'm still waiting for my PH meter to arrive by post (Canada Post, so hopefully some time this year,lol) I have everything else,including 35-38 lbs of frozen blackberries (will be trying for no water dilution,if not enough juice,it's back to the shop I go) Thank you everyone for all your help and input so far.
> I do believe in wine making that reading is great for everyone, but reading "experienced knowledge" is the best!



Where in B.C. are you from.
I'm located on the Island and have ordered a few things off Ebay from China.
It usually takes 3-4 weeks to arrive.


----------



## vernsgal

Right now I'm in Coquitlam. I too have ordered things from China but this is coming from Ontario so it could take longer.lol Actually the mail tracker shows it arriving on Thurs., so fingers crossed


----------



## LoveTheWine

vernsgal said:


> Right now I'm in Coquitlam. I too have ordered things from China but this is coming from Ontario so it could take longer.lol Actually the mail tracker shows it arriving on Thurs., so fingers crossed



Sorry my mistake, I thought you ordered the meter from China.
On a different note, have you visited BosaGrape winery supplies in Burnaby?

http://ecom.bosagrape.com/home.php

I have ordered items from them in the past as they seem to have everything.
They carry Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast which is great for blackberry as it can reduce much of your Malic acid during fermentation resulting in a smoother wine.


----------



## spaniel

Turock said:


> From our experience, it isn't the acid because we always adjust the acid to an acceptable level on everything we make. It has to do with flavor. For some reason, lots of fruit for red raspberry, blueberry, black raspberry just doesn't have high flavor. These wines really need the standard recipe.



Interesting, I've had the opposite experience. Those fruits develop plenty of flavor for me. Black raspberry is one of my favorites, I just bottled 6 gallons of black raspberry port. I put in no water; the flavor was amazing. IIRC we originally started at 10lb/gal and it was good even there.

Red raspberry, I experimented with one batch of no water added and it was too much flavor....specifically, too sharp. I'm guessing acid though I did not test it, but it certainly was not thin on flavor.

Blueberry I gave up (probably too) early as I could not get the chemistry right for good fermentation and had no equipment back then. But it had a ton of flavor.

When I think of thin flavor I think of peach, strawberry, and watermelon.


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## dessertmaker

I think what Turock was trying to say was that using large amounts of those specific fruits doesn't improve the flavor and that its better to stick with recipes that add water in those instances.


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## vernsgal

Turock said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> Let me give you a little heads up on using a large amount of frozen fruit. It can take a couple days for a large amount to thaw and warm to room temp so the yeast will take off. Be sure to use the right amount of sulfite on it and layering it in to the frozen fruit is a good idea. Toss a couple pints of water on it to be sure it's somewhat dissolved.
> 
> You don't want to get any biological growth going, or your ferment will become stuck because the growth overwhelms the yeast.



If I'm thawing 30lbs of blackberries to make 3 gal., is 1/4 tsp of k-meta right?


----------



## spaniel

dessertmaker said:


> I think what Turock was trying to say was that using large amounts of those specific fruits doesn't improve the flavor and that its better to stick with recipes that add water in those instances.



Ah, yes, it makes a lot more sense to me that way.


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## vernsgal

LoveTheWine said:


> On a different note, have you visited BosaGrape winery supplies in Burnaby?
> 
> http://ecom.bosagrape.com/home.php
> 
> I had no idea they were there and I lived practically next door. Went for a visit today.Stocked up on some items and got to wander through the whole warehouse (fork lift was down so they let me through).
> Their site isn't bad either. I can order and just go in and pick up to save shipping costs.
> Thanks


----------



## LoveTheWine

vernsgal said:


> LoveTheWine said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a different note, have you visited BosaGrape winery supplies in Burnaby?
> 
> http://ecom.bosagrape.com/home.php
> 
> I had no idea they were there and I lived practically next door. Went for a visit today.Stocked up on some items and got to wander through the whole warehouse (fork lift was down so they let me through).
> Their site isn't bad either. I can order and just go in and pick up to save shipping costs.
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your welcome.
> I can't wait until I can actually go the the store.
> I will be paying a visit this summer to stock up as well!
Click to expand...


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## WVMountaineerJack

Dragons blood makes you a folower of the great danger Dave, a follower dude.


jamesngalveston said:


> I have never been one to follow others, I like my own direction better.
> I agree with all you said .
> I recieved my supplies today for 2 5 gallon batches.
> 5 gallons of dragon blood, I had a chemist come and do the measurements for 5 gallon, vs 6 gallon from whole fruit.
> I am also starting 5 gallons of strawberry/blackberry from juice.
> Now that I have a few weeks of questions answered here, and 2 weeks of reading...Im ready to try my own hand.
> Thing is....I want more buckets and carboys and fruit.
> This maybe a hobby after all.
> Thanks for the info.


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

For a 3 gal batchs its easy to add 1/4 tsp KM to 5 tsp water, mix ,then add 3 of those teaspoons to the mix, you dont want to add to much KMs WVMJ


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## vernsgal

Yay! my PH meter showed up today. Starting the thaw on blackberries.I split the berries in to 2 primary pails(figured they'd thaw faster) ,sprinkled with1/8 tsp each with k-meta and poured a pint of water on each.


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## Turock

On frozen fruit, we use 1 campden tab per gallon. Splitting the batch is a good idea--stir it up once in a while to help it thaw better. Get a dose of pectic enzyme in there to start breaking down the fruit.


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## vernsgal

Well it's all thawed but still real cold. Stirred regularly.Should be set tomorrow for testing PH and setting brix. Do I test the PH before I set brix? What about the TA?


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

I might have missed it, but did you add pectinase yet? WVMJ


----------



## vernsgal

WVMountaineerJack said:


> I might have missed it, but did you add pectinase yet? WVMJ



Yes I did. Thanks, I don't feel quite so worried having all of the help from this forum


----------



## photoactivist

vernsgal said:


> What about the TA?



I'm currently making a blackberry wine, myself. And I ended up needing to add quite a bit of acid blend to get to the 0.55% tartaric measurement I was trying to reach.


----------



## Deezil

photoactivist said:


> I'm currently making a blackberry wine, myself. And I ended up needing to add quite a bit of acid blend to get to the 0.55% tartaric measurement I was trying to reach.



Did you add a bunch of water? Adding acid blend to Blackberry wine isn't really common practice unless you added a bunch of water & used a lesser amount of fruit; blackberries are packed with acids.

If thats the case, I would double-check that you have adequate flavor & body in the wine, they could both fall a bit short.


----------



## Turock

vernsgal--you can ignore TA. We never consider it on fruit wines.

Use acid blend on blackberry and you'll be mighty sorry! What do you mean by "tartaric measurement?" I think you're trying to say TA---total acids. Who cares about total acids on blackberry--most of it is malic, a very harsh acid. You'll be lucky if you can drink that blackberry wine.


----------



## Turock

We PH test first--then set the brix


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## wineon4

I made 6 gallon of blackberry, 6 gallon of blackberry apple and 6 gallon of blackberry blueberry and I indeed did need to add some acid. I have a TA of .65 in each and they are a terrific tasting wine very fruity and well balanced. one just received a Double Gold at a local AWS event. As said before, with experience better wines are made off recipe and it is my opinion that each batch is unique. In the 18 gallons I made each 6 gallon has 40lb of blackberries liquidfied in a blender and 6 cans of white grape concentrate, the apple has 3 gallon of wallyworld apple juice and the blueberry has an additional 20 lb of blueberries. After stabilizing I added 2 bottles of Glycrine as a finisher to each 6 gallon. It was the Blackberry/Apple that won the DoubleGold.


----------



## vernsgal

Sorry guys, I fell a day behind. My mom was hit by a car last night and being that she's pushing 80 it was pretty traumatic .Good news is aside from some broken bones I think she'll be ok.Tough old bird.

Anyhow,back to wine- must temp. this morning was 72F. I set the PH to 3.45 ,brought my SG to 1.082 and added some nutrient. I pitched the yeast tonight because I wasn't sure how chaotic my day would be tomorrow and didn't want to forget. Tomorrow night add bentonite?


----------



## Deezil

Hope she pulls through okay!

Bentonite tomorrow night should work out alright


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

photoactivist said:


> I'm currently making a blackberry wine, myself. And I ended up needing to add quite a bit of acid blend to get to the 0.55% tartaric measurement I was trying to reach.



Post your recipe, either you didnt add many berries, your acid measurement is off or the calcs are off? Sometimes our straight blackberry juice gives a TA of 1.2% vs the typical 0.65% most people desire in a fruit wine. We almost always make this sweet anyway on purpose, espcially with honey. WVMJ


----------



## vernsgal

Just peeked under towel, must has a great foam cap happening.Will add bentonite tonight


----------



## Turock

Sounds great.

Hope your mom will be OK--send her our best wishes.


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks guys! Mom's doing better.

I made a slurry with the bentonite earlier and then stirred it in well last night. At what stage do I remove the fruit and do 1st racking? SG ?


----------



## Turock

We let the fruit in the vat the whole way. Usually takes 5 days or so. Rack to secondary when you get to 0.99 or so--totally dry. Then you know all the sugar has been converted to alcohol. You CAN rack around 1.000 or so, and it'll finish up in the secondary. The only thing to think about is that if you have little activity, the airlock will stay in place. But some cultures are agressive foamers and have high activity and once racked, they get more active and will blow the airlock off for 24 hours or so. So it's always good to let your wines go to dry before getting them in a carboy.

Because you used bentonite, your wine will be very ugly for a few months. Rack when the lees get heavy. You have to rack once or twice more when using bentonite, than you would on a wine where it's not used. Just be patient with it---you want this to age at least 9 months, and have all the bentonite cleared off of it before tasting.

Glad your mom is doing better. My mother had abdominal surgery twice when she was 89----then had a total knee---then fell and broke her hip and had THAT partially replaced at age 90. It was a tough 2 years for her. But she's 91 now and doing very well, living on her own. The woman is the Energizer Bunny. Hope your mom does as well as she did.


----------



## vernsgal

want to just threadjack my own post here for a moment to say "Thanks Turock" for your post :


Turock said:


> Glad your mom is doing better. My mother had abdominal surgery twice when she was 89----then had a total knee---then fell and broke her hip and had THAT partially replaced at age 90. It was a tough 2 years for her. But she's 91 now and doing very well, living on her own. The woman is the Energizer Bunny. Hope your mom does as well as she did.



It's amazing how many people actually think telling me horror stories of things that happened to their parents/ or friends would make me feel better.It was nice for something positive. I hope your mom has many healthy, active years left!


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## Turock

You're welcome. Some people just have a real determination and when they do, they always do better after these kinds of challenges. I was trained in the medical field---and saw this time after time. My mom is an extreme example of the most determined of all of us.

She's now out working in her roses and planting flowers, mulching, and even using a PUSH MOWER to do some trimming where the riding mower can't get to. What an inspiration to all of us!


----------



## vernsgal

should be racking to secondary in the next day or 2, SG is at 1.003. Thinking on oaking .Any suggestions on what type?
I have med. toast french,med.toast american,heavy french, heavy american and light american.


----------



## Turock

I think medium french would be a good choice. Have you ever made this wine before? If not, you might want to leave some unoaked so you get the full flavor of a good blackberry wine. Then you can decide which way you like it best. As an option, you could just age it for about 9 months--taste it and if you choose to oak, you can do it then.


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## wineon4

I prefer blackberry unoaked as Turock says the true flavor of a good blackberry wine is something to admire.


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## vernsgal

will it be bad of me to say " I have never tried any fruit" wine.  I have made close to 50 kits, if not more,but I have never made nor tasted a fruit wine. So when I say Noob I mean total Noob


----------



## wineon4

I make fruit wines only, no kits, all made from scratch with fresh fruit and juice. Had a bottle of Blackberry last evening with a salad for dinner it was great. Currently have a Rhubarb and a Cherry in carboys. Plan to make another 20 gallon of Rhubarb this weekend.


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## Turock

Well then Vernsgal, I would suggest you don't oak it at this time so you can see how good it is on its own. Our blackberry wine tastes like you are eating a blackberry pie---the flavor of yours should be around this intensity. Once you get to enjoy it in its full-blown glory, then you can play around with it. We make a nice blend of 1 part blackberry, 2 parts elderberry, and 2 parts oaked concord. Everyone thinks they're drinking some complex red grape wine--they're shocked when they find out it's, basically, a blended fruit wine.

Oh, cherry wine is one of my big favorites. Using sour cherries and doing it with no water gives a nice tart cherry that is quite similar to cherry pie. In fact, we're getting close to cherry time. There is an orchard here who gets cherries shipped in from Michigan. Last year they all got frozen out, so this year we ordered 200 pounds of cherries to make about 20 gallons to make up for having NONE last year.


----------



## wineon4

Turock, we love Cherry with a wisp of Chocolate. I use pure Cherry Fruit juice from R.W. Knudsen, 100% fresh juice. This juice is 100% juice no additives, ingredients list is Just "Sour Cherry Juice". I then use fresh cherries from the produce section of Wallyworld. I also use Lindts 90% cocoa chocolate. I take 3 bars and break up then put in the primary. This gives the wine a nice Cherry on the front with a slight wisp of bitter chocolate on the finish. Give it a try if you like Chocolate covered cherries this wine is great.


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## vernsgal

Cherry wine with chocolate sounds awesome (new one to try) I had read a posting from Julie on using the Lindts chocolate bars ( 1 bar per gallon I believe )  have it in my notes somewhere...

Is it normal for my SG to be stuck at 1.002 ? It's been there for 3 days now. I'm stirring the must daily then I test the SG. It was consistently going down until it hit 1.002 then it just stopped.


----------



## Turock

Well, I think it's time to get it over in carboy if it's not moving. You'll begin to lose the protection of the CO2. 

Once you rack it over and get the airlock in place, check it to be sure the airlock doesn't blow off. Racking can get the ferment excited for a time and the airlock may not stay in place. If that happens, just leave the airlock off an hour or so until it clams down and reinsert the airlock. Keep an eye on it until you're sure it will stay in place.


----------



## vernsgal

I racked the wine over 4 days ago to a 3 gal carboy SG was reading 1.000. It's still reading the same. Do I just leave it and wait? Should I add something? I have to leave for a week on Friday and I just want to make sure it's ok.


----------



## TommBomb

So turock, when you have the fruit thawed and in the primary, do you do a ph test before adjusting the brix? Do you aim for certain ph levels for specific fruits or is there a number that you specifically target. TA testing isnt something you focus on?


----------



## Turock

Vernsgal----Nope, don't do a thing to it. Just leave it alone. Have a safe trip. See ya when you return.

Tomm----No, we don't even measure TA on our fruit wines. We strictly work with PH because we came to the realization, thru some experiments, how critical PH is to the flavor. Some people may disagree with this, but it is what we discovered.

Here's what we do. Once the fruit is thawed we take a PH reading and adjust as needed--then we set the brix.

Yes, we DO shoot for a certain PH. After 24 years, and many experiments, we have found the PH level we desire for each wine we make. Typically on red style wines--even when made from fruit--we shoot for a 3.4 PH On some whites, like a pear or apple, we shoot for 3.3 to 3.4 On Niagara, which is a white grape--we shoot for 3.2 Higher than that, it's like dishwater.

Strawberry, we like to get above 3.4 or else it's too tart and you have to use more sugar to get it balanced to the acid.

You know, this also depends on HOW you make your wines.  We are usually using no water---so the acids are very concentrated and PH control is real important. But if you're making a wine with water addition and the resulting delicate flavor, you might shoot for a bit higher PH because the water dilutes and lowers the acids. So you see, one size doesn't fit all. You have to consider HOW you're gonna make this wine. Your whole goal is to have balance between the acids and the sweetness. Tasting the juice as you set the PH does help you to find a range that YOU like. Keep good records on the PH level you like for each of your wines once you decide the style in which you like making them. Makes it much easier when you're standing at the primary, trying to duplicate that great wine you made 2 years ago.

Don't forget that you can also use malic metabolizing cultures like 71B to help manage the harsh bite of malic fruits. Makes the wine --especially blackberry and pear--nice and smooth.


----------



## vernsgal

Well I'm home from the Okanagan. Weather was not as sunny and warm as usual for this time of year, but I can't complain considering what Calgary was given (my youngest daughter lives there so I was following their weather closely) 
I checked my SG today on my blackberry and it's still sitting at 1.000. I pitched the yeast back on May 31. Is it ok that it's still sitting at the same? I made a Cherry/berry in which I pitched the yeast on June 6, and it's SG today was .990
Do different fruits and/or wines take longer to reach dry?


----------



## wineon4

I have had wines not go completely dry to .990 some stop anywhere between 1.00 and .990.


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## Turock

1.00 IS essentially dry----no problem with this SG.


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks. With kit wines (all I have experience in) they all stated it had to be .998 or lower so I was just concerned. How long do I leave it now before racking again? It's sitting on about an inch of sediment.


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## Turock

Go ahead and rack that off. You always want to get the wine off the gross lees because it has a lot of nasty stuff in it from the fermentation.


----------



## wood1954

Turock, i've been following this thread on blackberry wine and noticed you also make cherry wine. I've made four batches of not very good cherry wine using either black cherry concentrate or fresh tart pie cherries. I live very close to the cherry capitol of wisconsin and will have access to lots of cherries and juice this summmer. I would like to try again. Could you share your technique. I haven't found anything on line. One guy i met said he just ferments the juice and then it's drinkable in a few weeks which i find hard to believe. If you can point me in the right direction i would greatly appreciate it


----------



## Turock

OK--no problem. Our cherry wine is really fabulous and retains that nice tartness of nose and flavor even tho we adjust the PH. That's probably what you're looking for. It took us a couple of attempts to get it to that level.

We use sour cherries. We ferment on the fruit---we don't just use the juice because we feel the pulp of the fruit adds so much to the wine. AND doing it on the skins gets you lots of color. Be sure they're pitted because the seeds can give an off-flavor.

Get the cherries in the vat---we always bag our fruit because it makes it easier to handle and makes the wine a little "cleaner" for siphoning. It also helps when pressing. Add meta and pectic enzyme on that first day. If the cherries are not frozen, you can add a double dose of pectic enzyme to break the fruit down better so you have enough juice for testing.

Second day, stir it all up or if it's bagged, squeeze the bags to release some juice. If the cherries were frozen, you'll have a LOT of juice. Use NO WATER--this is the secret to a great cherry wine. Adjust your PH to about 3.4 If the cherries are acidic, use calcium carbonate to bring the PH up. If not acid enough, use acid blend to get to the 3.4 PH Then set your brix. You'll want an SG of about 1.09 or so to get an alcohol content of 12.5 ABV.

We use Montrachet culture on it. The ferment should be about 5 days or so. Do a cooler ferment on it to retain volatiles. Ferm temp should be no higher than 75 degrees.

When you add your chemistries, the instructions are always "per gallon" or "per 5 gallons." You're probably wondering how to know how much wine these cherries with no water are going to make---I mean most recipes say to add a certain amount of water to equal 5 gallons and so that's what you use to know how much of a chemitry to add. The way you do this is to think about using 10-12# of cherries per gallon. So if you have 50 pounds of cherries, you would make 5 gallons of wine from that using 10 pounds of cherries per gallon. Then you know how much acid blend or calcium carbonate, or meta,etc. to add to the must. Hope that makes sense to you. Any questions? Let me know.


----------



## vernsgal

so this heat is waking up my blackberry. It has tiny bubbles on the top, no action really in the airlock. I took the temp and it's at 78F and the SG dropped to .998. Should I cool it down? I could move it to underground garage, I believe it's in the 60's there or place in cool water or is this temp. still ok for this stage?


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## Turock

I don't like storing wine--in the carboy or bottle--at 78 degrees. I'd get it in a cooler place.


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## wood1954

thanks, i'll give it a shot one more time this summer.


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## Turock

Cerries will be coming in shortly. We have 200# on order, coming from Michigan about the middle of this month.


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## vernsgal

That's a lot of cherries Turock.

Can I adjust PH on a wine that is already in secondary?


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## Turock

Vernsgal--Yes, you can adjust the PH post ferment. What are you doing? Yeah--it IS a lot of cherries but we didn't get ANY last year because of the frost and our stock of cherry wine is very low. It's a big favorite with our friends so it goes fast.

Wood--Any questions when you start the ferment, let me know.


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## vernsgal

whew. I don't know how I forgot to check ,I was looking through my notes to see what day I racked it, and the SG ,when I noticed I forgot to check PH. 
I've actually have about 6 projects going but the one in question is a blackberry/raspberry. It's not a straight berry wine because I was given, 1 of each-Vintner's 96oz harvest fruit wine base. I've never used this before but had read it was weak so I combined the 2 for a 6 gal batch. Glad I checked the PH today cause it was pretty low. Brought it up to 3.33
Jealous of all your cherries, hopefully next spring when we move to the Okanagan I'll be able to get my hands on a lot of fresh fruit and at a better price.We planted 2 Cherry trees about 4 years ago so hopefully I'll get enough to try a no water/cherry wine.
I'm working on a cherry wine-also with the 96oz Vintner's but I added a mix of about 25lbs of frozen blackberry/raspberry/blueberry.


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## wood1954

I think in one more week or so cherries will be ready in Door County. $1.29 for Upick-em cherries. i'll bring help and pick 50-60 lbs. I'm actually drinking a glass of last years cherry wine chilled and it's pretty good. It's almost 100% juice. the other batch i made was about 50% juice and i think i added too much SO2, hopefully that taste will fade away.


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## vernsgal

cherries here are still over $4 a pound. too steep for me.


----------



## Turock

Vernsgal---Ok, well it sounds like you solved your own problem. Yeah--always be sure to check the PH of everything--even those cans of fruit base when mixed with fruit. The only use we ever found for the fruit bases is to add them to fruit--then they do a good job of upping the flavor--but alone, they're very weak.

We order these cherries thru a local orchard who ships them in from Michigan. They come in all pitted in 5 pound containers. I think the price is around that $4.00 per pound mark, but I have just too many projects going on here and can't spend the time picking cherries. Got to get my projects done before winter---and we just got done with 16 straight days of rain. You can imagine how much yard work I'm facing after that with the 6 acres here. However, the corn was knee-high to an elephant this 4th of July!!!


----------



## vernsgal

So my blackberry is nearing week 12 since last racking. Is it time to rack again? and if yes, am I to add anything?
eg:k-meta


----------



## Turock

Only rack if you have lots of debris in the bottom---which you might since you used bentonite. You want to get to the point of only having a light dusting of lees on the bottom.

It's hard to say if you need to add meta. If you meta'd properly at the primary but haven't added any since, then yes I would add a proper dose now. I'm compelled to tell you that to know how much meta your wine needs, you should be SO2 testing and considering the PH of the wine to tell you how much free SO2 you need.

A brand new winemaker might want to go thru the expense of the SO2 test kit a couple times so you get a feel for how much meta you need in the wines you make. After that, you can sort of wing-it because you already know the parameters of what and how you're doing things, and how much meta--at what times--you need to add. If you end up with wines in carboys for long time periods, a solid bung would be a good idea over an airlock. Then you may never need to add more meta because a bung is more secure than a cork.


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Turock. I did add in the primary and haven't added any since. I'm picking up an SO2 tester tomorrow and will try it out as well as retesting my PH. I will let you know my results.
I do want to learn to do everything right, so again, Thanks for the help.


----------



## vernsgal

okay my PH 3.4 The PPM 18 So according to the chart I am a little low but it doesn't tell me how much k-meta is required. I have 3 gal so would I add 1/8 or 1/4 tsp?


----------



## Turock

For a PH of 3.4, you need about 40PPM of free SO2. I think I'd add the 1/4 tsp because your wine is so low on free sulfite. Go back and retest it later on. Bound SO2 does nothing for protecting the wine. It is the FREE, or unbound SO2, that does the protection. 

The lower the PH is, the less SO2 you need for protection. A wine of 3.2 PH only needs about 25 PPM-- a PH of 3.3 needs 30 PPM--a PH of 3.6 needs 60 PPM---a PH of 3.8 needs 80 PPM. Most of your wines will be adjusted to a PH of 3.3 to 3.4 unless you're making a white grape wine which is usually a lower PH. But most fruit wines are in the 3.3 to 3.4 range. 

So if you keep your PH in your future wines around that 3.3 to 3.4 range, you'll know how much meta to add thru experience and won't have to test all the time.

I'm glad you did the test. I like your scientific approach instead of just winging it.


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Turock. I printed and posted those numbers on my board until I have them embedded in this old brain. Tomorrow I'll rack and add the k-meta. 

I have a myriad of different wine projects going right now. Some I'm holding true to, some I'm experimenting with. I want to know how to test and figure what needs what properly without just throwing something in and hoping for the best. Especially since these wines will all age at least a year before unbottling ,that's too long to wait for something bad 

My future goal is not to make a good wine, but to make a "great" wine. So I'll be needing a lot of experienced advice from this site!


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## Turock

Your approach to winemaking makes me smile. It's so much easier helping someone BEFORE they make all kinds of rookie mistakes. I'm a believer in doing homework before attempting things because more knowledge makes things work out better. No matter what I do, I always study before going forward. It makes a huge difference in the outcome.

Many years ago, we took the same approach---started working on making great wines. Different techniques makes a difference, for sure. Experience helps too. Anything you pay lots of attention to--anything you invest in---- you get MORE of. I told you in the past that with your attitude------you're gonna be a great winemaker.


----------



## vernsgal

Thought I would update this post. It's been another 3 months since I last racked.So today I'll rack and add more k-meta because my PPM is about 18.
Still being a newbie and not wanting to over sulphite I was web browsing to find something to tell you how much to add and I found this:
Calculation of Sulfur Dioxide (SO2)
Potassium metabisulfite, 1 gram = 150 ppm in 1 gallon, 30 ppm in 5 gallons
Potassium metabisulfite, ¼ teaspoon = 225 ppm in 1 gallon, 45 ppm in 5 gallons

Does this look accurate enough to go by? And if so, if my wine is 3 gal. and I added 1 g ,that would put me up 50 ppm? and is that enough?


----------



## seth8530

If I was you I would be sure to make sure your sulfite is the same one mentioned in the calculations they performed. They seem pretty good to me.. However, it never hurts to double check.


----------



## SBWs

How much k-meta needed is dependent on pH level. This article explains it all way better than I could. About 3/4 of the way down are two charts and an explanation of molecular and free SO2. While aging you want to keep levels between 0.8 and 2.0 molecular. As the article states you don't want to get above 2.0 molecular because that is about where humans can start to sense SO2. 



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## vernsgal

Thanks SBWs.I have read that article and have the chart printed for me to use as a reference. I knew my PH was important for determining my SO2 additions. It was just the math in figuring how much to add. I have to give a BIG thanks to Seth for taking the day in teaching me some tools for doing this.
I'm proud to say I now know (at least a bit  ) the technique called dimensional analysis. So using this formula .5tsp/(50mg/L*22.7L)=4.4*10^-4 tsp/mg I can determine how much K-meta to add after determining how much I'm down. I just change the 22.7L to whatever size of carboy I'm using. 
Today now, because I spent yesterday in math class, I'll get this baby racked!


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## vernsgal

Thought I'd show a pic of the rich color it has. It still has to clear a bit more ,I tried to get a shot with the light shining through but couldn't .


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## LoveTheWine

Looks good Kim!
Might want to try fining it to get it clear. I used egg whites last year on my blackberry and it worked great. Found that to be a bit messy though with very fluffy sediment so SuperKleer may be better.


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## jamesngalveston

I use egg whites on black berry also.


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## Julie

Just remember when using egg whites, you would be reducing your tannins as well and blackberry is not that high in tannins.


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## jamesngalveston

Exactly, by removing some of the tannins, your wine will not taste as dry, and not as astringent...more like a merlot....
could call Julie....should have posted that myself.


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## the_rayway

Julie said:


> Just remember when using egg whites, you would be reducing your tannins as well and blackberry is not that high in tannins.



Great tips about the egg whites, wish I had knows that for my Blackberry Mead - it could have used some softening.


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## Turock

That's a good looking glass of wine. How's the flavor? I'll bet it's very good.

When you do all blackberry with no water, you'll never be able to see thru it, no matter what you do. Did you use bentonite on that? It's about all you need to do.


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## LoveTheWine

Julie said:


> Just remember when using egg whites, you would be reducing your tannins as well and blackberry is not that high in tannins.



This is a good point.
I usually mix in a small amount of tannins prior to fining with them to compensate.


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## vernsgal

Turock said:


> That's a good looking glass of wine. How's the flavor? I'll bet it's very good.
> 
> When you do all blackberry with no water, you'll never be able to see thru it, no matter what you do. Did you use bentonite on that? It's about all you need to do.


I did use the bentonite on day 3 .This posting was where I learned all I know on bentonite. Between the pectic enzyme and bentonite I should be good.
I think I'll wait til the 9 month mark and then see how it's doing.It's hard to tell in the picture but it is clearing nicely. 

I actually went back to the beginning and reread all the past posts and forgot what a big learning experience I got from this wine. Thank You everyone who has helped.

The taste: the blackberry is definitely front and forward. Still a little bite of alcohol and kinda sucks your tongue up to the roof of your mouth. Body and color are amazing.
I think, like you mentioned earlier Turok, I'll wait to taste at the 9 month mark and see if it needs any tweeking then.


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## Turock

Well, it sounds like it turned out great. Oh yeah--I remember our experiences with this wine!!

Do you remember what you set the potential alcohol at? We make our fruit wines at 12-12 1/2 ABV. You really don't want more than that as high alcohol content can interfere with the fruit flavor. Is it nice and smooth with no harshness? Don't be afraid to age it 1 year--that's what we do. But we actually have some in carboys that are 2 years old.


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## vernsgal

Turock said:


> Oh yeah--I remember our experiences with this wine!!


This was my 1st True fruit wine.And you helped me from the beginning.And I now check and adjust PH and use bentonite in all my wines.

The alc. level is actually lower than my usual wines. Starting SG was 1.082 and it finished at .998 so I'm looking at about 11%.
I'm definitely going to let it sit another 3 months(that would put it at 9 months) and taste again. I'm sure,with time, this is going to taste amazing on it's own.


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## Turock

That sounds good, then. I think you used 71B culture on this too, so you shouldn't have harshness. Allowing it to age is a smart way to go--it SHOULD taste just like a blackberry pie. 

Then we taught you GOOD--LOL. You'll have much better wines when you take PH readings and adjust as needed. You design your wine at the primary, and that's where the bulk of the work should go! I hate trying to work with problem wines in the post ferment---been thousands of years since we had to do that!! All I want to do post ferment is work with additional flavors on some of the wines, and oaking procedures.


----------



## vernsgal

hahaha! Yup I was taught good! And yes I did use 71B in this wine.

It's funny what's become habit now. I automatically take and set my PH after getting my SG, always add bentonite, and clear with time.

Will update at next racking


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## Turock

Oh, I only wish all new winemakers would ask lots of questions and ask for help BEFORE they begin ferments. Then they'd learn the right techniques early on and not have problems. You're light years ahead when you learn BEFORE doing.

I'll be excited to hear about your update.


----------



## vernsgal

Turock said:


> I'll be excited to hear about your update.



Well I uncorked my 1st bottle today. I aged it 13 months so I figured it was time to give it a try.

It is so smooth, that stick your tongue to the roof of your mouth is gone.It tastes like blackberry pie, but not as sweet.(I never backsweetened) I am really happy with the body, taste and smell. It is a good medium bodied wine that smells of fruity blackberries.
Not adding any water left the full true flavor.

Everything I have learned from everyone here in making this wine has gone into my other fruit wines and I am more confident that they will come out great after trying this one!


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## Turock

Hot dog!!!! I'm glad it turned out so good for you. I really like the big flavor on this wine. Of all the wines we made, this wine was my dad's favorite.


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## vernsgal

Well I'm glad I took all the lessons taught to me here and have been able to use them on my new wines.
I do want to set at least 6 bottles of this aside and taste again next year ( the key word is "try" )


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## Turock

I hope you're making this wine every year--if you have the fruit. We didn't have a big crop of them this year, but enough for 5 or 6 gallons. You can also use some of it for blending if you're willing to sacrifice some. Blends with red grape wine or elderberry is really good.

I've always felt that using good techniques is so important for making a tasty wine. And that's something that takes alot of time to learn by yourself unless you have someone with experience to help you along. I wish we would have had these wine forums when we were struggling to learn.


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## vernsgal

I'll definitely make a few gallons yearly now that I've tasted.This year I used the blackberries in a couple pinot noirs.Waiting to try those.
I don't know how those of you managed without someone's experience or forums in starting out with homemade wines.


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## fabrictodyefor

This was one of the best threads I have read. I came home today with 60# of fresh blackberries, they are washed and quietly freezing. They were on sale, $2.65 a pound, and here in WY that's a really good price. I was looking for a recipe for blackberry wine that did not use any water. I am so pleased I found this. I have a ph tester but no bentonite, so I'll have to look into getting that before I get started. I even have the right yeast. I look forward to an update, Kim, if you still have some of your blackberry left!


----------



## vernsgal

fabrictodyefor said:


> This was one of the best threads I have read. I came home today with 60# of fresh blackberries, they are washed and quietly freezing. They were on sale, $2.65 a pound, and here in WY that's a really good price. I was looking for a recipe for blackberry wine that did not use any water. I am so pleased I found this. I have a ph tester but no bentonite, so I'll have to look into getting that before I get started. I even have the right yeast. I look forward to an update, Kim, if you still have some of your blackberry left!



This was my best learning experience. I was able to take all that I learned from everyone and apply to all my future wines.(even the math lessons  )

I bottled this back in July 2013. I do still have 5 bottles left that I'm holding for the 2 year mark. It was soo good after a year but I paced the wine so I would have 1 every 3 months or so to taste any difference in aging.It stayed about the same in taste the last few I've had (Oct.2014 & Feb.2015). I will post when I open at the 2 year mark.

Keep me updated on how yours goes


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## ceeaton

Thanks you for this wonderful thread. I was talking with my wife about it and she has given me the green light (monetary green light) to try a batch, and I feel by everything I've learned on this post that I may be able to pull off a good batch on the first try. Thank you!


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## vernsgal

ceeaton said:


> Thanks you for this wonderful thread. I was talking with my wife about it and she has given me the green light (monetary green light) to try a batch, and I feel by everything I've learned on this post that I may be able to pull off a good batch on the first try. Thank you!



With everyone's help through this thread I had no problems arise. I'm sure you won't either. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

keep us updated on it


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## Kraffty

I've just read this whole thread again and plan on starting my first Blackberry this weekend. Thank you Vernsgal and Turock for sharing your experience and knowledge. I plan on sticking very close to all the suggestions here, will let you know how it works out down the road.
Thanks again,
Mike


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## fabrictodyefor

Way to go, Mike. I think about it often, I still have my 60# of blackberries in the freezer, I think I'll do the same, read over the whole thread again and maybe I'll get mine going within the next week....
Bobbie


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## jh0330

Great thread!

I wish I had known about this forum before I began and went shopping for the first time. Unfortunately, I found out about this site on my first day.
So much info!

I also wish I had read your full thread more thoroughly ahead of time (before I was skim reading and read first few pages and last few pages and rushing to understand more thoroughly the next step as my blackberries were already mashed)!

Your right, I should have tested my pH more thoroughly pre-fermentation. I hope my wine doesn't turn out too acidic to the point of no return. Also, if I had read your thread more thoroughly before, I would have added more blackberries. I probably would have avoided adding bentonite (6~8months) too. Fingers are crossed, but I have no idea how it will turn out (I left too many factors to luck haha). I don't want to keep my only carboy sitting with a possibly bad tasting wine for that long! I wanted to bottle up ASAP, bottle age these, and start a new batch as I am certain I can do better.


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## fabrictodyefor

jh0330 said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I wish I had known about this forum before I began and went shopping for the first time. Unfortunately, I found out about this site on my first day.
> So much info!
> 
> I also wish I had read your full thread more thoroughly ahead of time (before I was skim reading and read first few pages and last few pages and rushing to understand more thoroughly the next step as my blackberries were already mashed)!
> 
> Your right, I should have tested my pH more thoroughly pre-fermentation. I hope my wine doesn't turn out too acidic to the point of no return. Also, if I had read your thread more thoroughly before, I would have added more blackberries. I probably would have avoided adding bentonite (6~8months) too. Fingers are crossed, but I have no idea how it will turn out (I left too many factors to luck haha). I don't want to keep my only carboy sitting with a possibly bad tasting wine for that long! I wanted to bottle up ASAP, bottle age these, and start a new batch as I am certain I can do better.



It might be better to get a new car boy....sometimes that bulk aging works miracles! I hand a choke cherry/grape made last year, every time I racked it to a clean car boy I tasted it and every time I thought...this might be the batch I have to toss...it proved me wrong. This last time I racked it and taste tested I was so shocked, it is so smooth that now I am having a hard time leaving it alone! I wanted to bulk age it for a month or two longer, but I may just have to bottle it now!


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## vernsgal

jh0330 said:


> I probably would have avoided adding bentonite (6~8months) too.



My rule of thumb is to always add bentonite in primary in the 1st few days.

I think your wine will turn out just fine! Unfortunately you'll have to waitto find out.lol

I don't think anyone truly nails their 1st wine. You have to make it to the best of your knowledge(and yes, read, read and read before hand) Then make sure to age.After aging and you've tasted your wine you will be able to perceive what "you" feel is needed to add to the finished product and will make your next even better!

You will hear a lot on body,oak, tannins, sweetness etc. but truthfully it will always come down to your own personal taste. That's why liquor stores are full of so much variety! 

Enjoy your new addiction! (oops, I meant hobby  )


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## fabrictodyefor

Procrastination is over! We have a side of beef coming tomorrow and the blackberries have to be removed from the freezer! I'm glad for the push. I've read the thread again, and the blackberries are now thawing!


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## vernsgal

Keep us posted on how it goes!


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## fabrictodyefor

I don't think I did anything wrong, brought the sg up to 1.086 added all the rest of the chemicals, it fermented fine. It was at 1.000 this afternoon, so we pressed them and I only ended up with 3 1/2 gallons.  I started with 62 lbs of blackberries. I guess it is what it is. I didn't add any water...except what I dissolved the chemicals in and also dissolving the bentonite.


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## Stressbaby

I did an "all juice" blackberry this year, didn't press the fruit at the end, just used free run juice, and I got 2 gal from 29# of fruit.


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## Scooter68

I think you've had some good advice as to not needing acid blend. Test before you proceed into primary fermentation. I invested $15.00 on a electronic pH meter that has proved very helpful. 

Don't think you'll need anything to clear the wine at the end. Mine turned out beautiful. After the 3rd racking it there was virtually nothing on the bottom of the carboy. Of course this was just a 1 gallon batch. But I squeezed the daylights out of my fermentation bag so there was a lot of lees when I got to the first full racking. 

Just watch the fermentation time. All mine efforts with the fruit this year finished primary in less than 4 days and were down to .990 in less than 10 days at the outside. The scary part was that the my Blueberry had very little fragrance all through the fermentation and early aging. The Blackberry (Use I think 4 1/2 lbs for a gallon) had a beautiful light "bouquet" from day one.

As to quantity of fruit, I was working with a Starter Fruit Wine kit that listed all the quantities for me. I will make them all about 25-50% stronger next year since one can always dilute down a batch if needed as long as you maintain the minimum ABV level.
BTW In my Avatar image the Blackberry is 3rd from the left.


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## wildhair

*Great thread..........I found it a few days late, however.*

I read this entire thread and got some VERY useful info, even if a bit late. And useful info on some other topics, as well. Thanks for that.
I had 2 qt. of blackberry juice I canned, 2 qt. of blackberry syrup I canned and 20 cups of frozen blackberries (left over after 3 batches of blackberry jam). Try to find a recipe for that! So this was my first "wing-it " wine, based on what little i could find.
So - I chopped the berries in the Ninja, added them to the fermenter w/ the other juice and maybe a qt. of water. I did not think to check the ph OR to add Cal. Carbonate in the primary. I added a small amount of acid blend, nutrient, pectic enzyme, but no tannin, no bentonite. The SG was 1.085 to start, I used RC212 yeast. In 3 days the SG was .994, I strained it and put into the secondary.
I read the comments on how folks screwing up before asking Q's - that would be the category I'm in. Can calcium carbonate be added post-ferment? Anything I can do or should check at this point? 
I bookmarked this thread and will go back to it again this spring - blackberries I have no shortage of.
Again - great thread, lots of valuable info. Like Arnold said - "I'll be back".

Edit - I checked the ph - it's 6.6


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## Scooter68

1) Calcium Carbonate is only needed if your wine is too acidic. That's why before you pitch yeast into a batch you need to check both the SG and the pH or do a titration test.
2) You currently have an extremely low acid wine IF indeed the pH is actually 6.6. Or are you talking about the titration test results? SO if it is indeed a pH of 6.6 you need to add acid now before the wine gets infected with a bacteria. The alcohol will help but you still need much more acid to protect it. The other items, tannin, bentonite, pectic enzyme are not critical. 
Bentonite is a clearing agent and you may not need it at all. 
Pectic Enzyme can be added now or later - again it's to help remove any pectic haze.
Tannin, you can add it now but not a big deal if the taste is good without it.


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## wildhair

I think the ph tester I used is not right. I re-checked it with some ph strips (and some of the other wines) and they all show a ph between 3 & 4. Which is the best you can do with the little strips. I'll have to get a meter made for testing wine. And from what I've read here - probably a SO2 tester as well. 
What would be the acidity or ph I should have ?


----------



## Scooter68

For most fruit wines a pH number between 3.4 and 3.6 is desired. Variance will occur at times but keeping as close to that range as possible is considered safe. You will see, if you go hunting on some winery sites, wines offered with a pH as low as 3.18, but until you have a lot more experience the above range is a good guideline. 

And reading a blackberry wine with ph Strips is virtually impossible. Find an inexpensive pH meter - they range from $20.00 to $40.00 for a good starter. If you want one that does more you will be investing a LOT more money but that depends on your plans and budget. You can even do a titration test with a basic pH meter and to find out how just google that phrase "Titration with pH meter" By the way the key with any pH meter high dollar or low dollar is to check calibration frequently. Buffer solutions are used and even the High Dollar ones need to be check just as often as a $20.00 meter.


----------



## wildhair

I wondered about using the strips because of the color of the juice. OK, a ph meter it is. So if it IS too acidic - can I still add the Cal. Carbonate to bring it up or is it too late to correct it now?

Man, I thought this was gonna be a nice little winter hobby - little old man doing some wine making while the snow flies. It's turning into a Chem final! SO2 levels, ph, tartaric acid, malic acid, hydrometer readings - the more I read, the more I learn, the more I learn, the more questions I have & the more I know how much I don't know! LOL


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## Scooter68

Yes - calcium carbonate will help BUT go slow and give it no more than a half-dose of the amount you figure is need. It's always easier to add a bit more than to have it go to far the other way. Too acid affect taste but too little and the wine can spoil - beyond recovery so just take it slow and give it a couple of days after dosing before testing.


----------



## wildhair

I found this on the EC Kraus web site regarding dosage - this look about right? 

*DOSAGE:* For each teaspoon of Calcium Carbonate added to 1 gallon of wine, the total acidity (TA) will lower by .10% tartaric. We recommend determining what the juice`s current TA is with an *Acid Testing Kit*. Then establish a dosage to be added to the entire batch. If you do not have an Acid Testing Kit then use 1/2 teaspoon of Calcium Carbonate for every gallon of wine. More Calcium Carbonate can be added later if the wine is still too tart.

*MAXIMUM DOSAGE:* Total dosage should not exceed 3-1/2 teaspoon per each gallon of wine.\


In all the books I read so far, I only found mention of using Calcium Carbonate in a rhubarb recipe on Jack Keller's site. And none mentioned checking the ph in the must.


----------



## Scooter68

Books are great but when it comes to actual practical experience there's a lot more information on boards like this one and several others that comes in handy. 

One recommendation - Read suggestions, sit back and think if it passes the common sense test and then google a little bit more about it. For example. I've only been making wine since July of 2015. *I've read* *a ton online and googled for questions* I had as well. And in all that time I only found out about Reduless, a product for elimination of the "Rotten Egg" smell, a little over a week ago. I'm retired with no pressing things to do other than tend to our property (18 acres) and the two homes on that property. And yet somehow I missed reading about that product until a week ago. So suddenly a really ugly problem that I've had twice now, is suddenly managable with this product.

As you do more of this you will find a variety of opinions and some minor controversy about things we should or shouldn't do - Like Using an airlock on wine during primary fermentation, or soaking, dipping, or not soaking corks in sanitizer before corking bottles. Who's right? Well sometimes there is no right answer and sometimes there's more than one way to get the job done. 

Hang in there, and most of all be patient, that's the most import part of learning how to make the best wine.


----------



## wildhair

It's like that on most forums. And I've been googling (duckduckgo in my case) and reading what I can to avoid asking overly ignorant Q's on here, I search the forum to see if my Q has already been answered earlier (the way I found this thread). And like everywhere on-line & in person - some folks are helpful, some want to show how much they know, some just want to stick in their $.02, some are amusing, some are amazing - but they ALL have more experience than me. So far - so good! Seems like a lot of nice helpful folks. And since I haven't put a cork in my first bottle yet - I have LOTS to learn. I'm picking up a ph meter tonight and I'll be testing tomorrow. I do appreciate your help & input.


----------



## Stressbaby

@wildhair,
When it comes to acid additions (or carbonate/bicarbonate additions for that matter), recall that TA changes are linear and somewhat predictable. pH changes on the other hand are logarithmic and highly variable. Three tsp of acid might move the pH significantly in one batch and hardly move it at all in another, depending on the buffering capacity of the must. And because it is logarithmic, the first tsp won't move the pH the same amount as the third. 
Get the pH meter, go slow and test often, you'll figure it out.


----------



## wildhair

I think I'll test the batch, then pull off a qt. or 1/2 gal and make corrections in that over the course of the next week. Then, assuming I get the ph it where it should be - I can extrapolate to the remaining batch. I hope. Thanks.
Nothing like an old dog trying to learn new tricks.


----------



## Scooter68

Stressbaby said:


> @wildhair,
> When it comes to acid additions (or carbonate/bicarbonate additions for that matter), recall that TA changes are linear and somewhat predictable. pH changes on the other hand are logarithmic and highly variable. Three tsp of acid might move the pH significantly in one batch and hardly move it at all in another, depending on the buffering capacity of the must. And because it is logarithmic, the first tsp won't move the pH the same amount as the third.
> Get the pH meter, go slow and test often, you'll figure it out.



My first TA test with a pH meter was great proof of that. It seemed to take forever for the numbers to shift then it was like a roller coaster starting down that first hill.

Slow and steady and LOTS of patience is how this is all done.


----------



## Scooter68

By the way you mentioned that you haven't bottled anything yet. Have you bought bottles or looked into your local recycling center? Those of us operating on the cheap find that with a little experience and timing, you can gather a lot of excellent bottles for no cost other than the time and energy to clean off the lables. Just another 'random' thought.


----------



## wildhair

I'm a Scot by birth - doing things on the cheap is in my DNA.  I have been collecting bottles for a while and I have friends saving them for me as well. I have quite a few of the 1.5L as well as the 750 ml and some 325 ml. I did some calculations & think I have enough for what I've got brewing. I'll know for sure in another month or so. 
I've been looking/reading on how to get the darn labels off easier. I've read a couple tips, I'll try them on the next batch. I've been soaking them in a 5 gal bucket w/ sodium carbonate (washing soda). And I took a 3" putty knife to the grinder and ground it to a curve that matched the bottle, then ground an edge on it. Works pretty well at removing labels and glue.


----------



## Scooter68

Sounds like you have some pretty solid plans for saving on the hobby. By the way, hang on to those 375ml bottles they are 1) Not that common around here and 2) EXPENSIVE to buy if you wanted to use them for gift bottles. I make small batches mostly 1-4 gallons at most and I'd love to use the 375ml for gifts, but the price to buy them is way more than standard bottles so.... I'm really choosey about who I give my wine too. 


As far as the labels I just use hot water, time and then a cheap single edge scraper. I'm starting to get picky - if the label glue won't come off easy - that bottle can go back to the recycling center. Of course I have fun looking for matching bottles. (5 per gallon) And I've found that my light colored wines have to be put in clear bottles not those bluish or greenish glass ones. So bottle hunting takes me a little time. 

Good luck on this batch.


----------



## wildhair

Got the ph meter, got it calibrated - blackberry is 3.27 and my rhubarb reads 3.02. Didn't check the cranberry. Will begin adjustments w/ calcium carbonate later in the weekend.
Couple Q's - when testing different wines - do you rinse the meter between use and put in the buffer solution between each sample? Or can you rinse in warm tap water, dip it sterilizer and go to the next sample? 

How long does it typically have to sit in the sample for the reading to be "final"? Mine wanted to bounce (the hundreths #) between 3.26, 3.27, 3.28, 3.27, etc. for 5 minutes or so. Or ~ once it stabilizes on the tenths - is that "accurate enough"?

How long after adding Calcium Carbonate should I wait to re-test?


----------



## Stressbaby

wildhair said:


> Got the ph meter, got it calibrated - blackberry is 3.27 and my rhubarb reads 3.02. Didn't check the cranberry. Will begin adjustments w/ calcium carbonate later in the weekend.
> Couple Q's - when testing different wines - do you rinse the meter between use and put in the buffer solution between each sample? Or can you rinse in warm tap water, dip it sterilizer and go to the next sample?
> 
> How long does it typically have to sit in the sample for the reading to be "final"? Mine wanted to bounce (the hundreths #) between 3.26, 3.27, 3.28, 3.27, etc. for 5 minutes or so. Or ~ once it stabilizes on the tenths - is that "accurate enough"?
> 
> How long after adding Calcium Carbonate should I wait to re-test?



I'm not sure I'd mess with the blackberry. You may be able to balance that one out by backsweetening it.


----------



## Johnd

wildhair said:


> Got the ph meter, got it calibrated - blackberry is 3.27 and my rhubarb reads 3.02. Didn't check the cranberry. Will begin adjustments w/ calcium carbonate later in the weekend.
> Couple Q's - when testing different wines - do you rinse the meter between use and put in the buffer solution between each sample? Or can you rinse in warm tap water, dip it sterilizer and go to the next sample?
> 
> How long does it typically have to sit in the sample for the reading to be "final"? Mine wanted to bounce (the hundreths #) between 3.26, 3.27, 3.28, 3.27, etc. for 5 minutes or so. Or ~ once it stabilizes on the tenths - is that "accurate enough"?
> 
> How long after adding Calcium Carbonate should I wait to re-test?



Between testings, I rinse with DI water and pat dry. 

After 10 or so seconds, when it making those little bounces, call it 3.27, plenty close enough. 

I measure soon after mixing in calcium carbonate, just to see, but normally wait til the next day before calling it done and making additional changes.


----------



## Scooter68

QUOTE: "After 10 or so seconds, when it making those little bounces, call it 3.27, plenty close enough."

Except those like me who really really really want it below 3.XX and just have to keep tapping the meter, swishing the juice.  And of course as soon as I write a number it will drop one more thousandth. 

*AGREE - With all assessments by the above more experienced heads.*

For me I put it out rinse lightly with distilled water and let it set in my distilled water cup until the next measurement (not more than 2-10 mins normally) Dry before storing OH and of course turn it off as soon as I pull it out of the sample.


----------



## Tnuscan

Scooter68 said:


> QUOTE: "After 10 or so seconds, when it making those little bounces, call it 3.27, plenty close enough."
> 
> Except those like me who really really really want it below 3.XX and just have to keep tapping the meter, swishing the juice.  And of course as soon as I write a number it will drop one more thousandth.
> 
> *AGREE - With all assessments by the above more experienced heads.*
> 
> For me I put it out rinse lightly with distilled water and let it set in my distilled water cup until the next measurement (not more than 2-10 mins normally) Dry before storing OH and of course turn it off as soon as I pull it out of the sample.



I never put my pH meter away dry, I always keep it slightly submerged in a storage solution.


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## wildhair

The wine making store owner told me to make sure the little cap on the electrode is kept with solution in it - specifically said - "don't let it dry out" after you take it out of the package. So I won't. ........probably.
So the blackberry is close enough at 3.27. And since the rhubarb is done (or almost done) fermenting - 3.02 is acceptable ph, too? 

He also told me as a "general rule of thumb" - 
Must should be 2.9 - 3.9 ph
Final ph - 3.0-3.3 for whites and 3.3 - 3.5 for reds. 

Thanks again. I should have some strawberries and rhubarb left over from jam making today. Gotta make some wine from that!


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## Scooter68

Fruit wines as a general rule folks shoot for a finish somewhere between 3.4 to 3.6 BUT as with most things about wine making, some people see it differently. My recipe book that came with my Starter kit from Master Vintner had that as a guide for all fruit wines other than grapes.


As to the must, a lot depends on the fruit and how much acid it may release/generated during fermentation. So with blueberries you can start at 3.6 and at the end of fermentation have a reading of 2.98 as I had on my last batch. (It was 8lbs of berries so I think next time I'll go for about 6 to 6 1/2 lbs.) Blueberries just get very acidic.

As to the pH meter - follow the manufacturers instructions - assuming it has guidance. Mine did not but it hasn't stopped working or drifted off badly in the 18 months I've had it. I do store mine dry and capped.


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## vernsgal

Posted this a long time ago. I still have a couple bottles left. If I was to follow this original again I would make 1 exception, I would back sweeten just a bit.
In my,now years of wine making, I have learned that I love my Grape Reds Dry, and my other red fruits have to be just a bit off dry.


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## hounddawg

Turock said:


> This wine will probably NOT need acid blend. Most blackberries have TOO much acid right from the beginning. It's important to have a PH meter when making this wine because you need to adjust the PH--which usually starts around 2.8 or 2.9---with calcium carbonate to a PH of about 3.4
> 
> The acid on blackberry is malic--a very harsh acid. So a good culture for them is 71B because it metabolizes some of the malic--about 20%---which makes a smoother wine without the resulting harshness that can be leftover when using other cultures.
> 
> Adding water will dilute this wine, producing a very light-tasting blackberry. When we make this wine, we use 10 pounds per gallon and use no water. This gives a big-flavored wine that tastes just like the fruit. Because we use high poundage, the wine can be very dense, so use bentonite in the primary to give the wine more clarity.
> 
> I'm against manual degassing of non-kit wines. We rack the lees off, then allow it to age for at least 9 months. By that time, the CO2 is gone and the wine is clear. Wines need to age up and stablize before sweetening and sorbate additions. Stablization is achieved only when the bulk of the yeast cells are racked off. Only then will sorbate work correctly. Don't be in a hurry with this wine--let it age up and generate its flavors. There is no way you should be adding sorbate when you rack to the secondary--this is totally wrong.
> 
> E C Kraus has a real nice discertation on sorbate in the blog section of their website. You should do some reading on proper use of sorbate so you understand how it works and when to use it.




i agree with trurock on acid blend,


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## hounddawg

i on pretty much on all country/fruit/berry wines i shoot for my PH OF 3.1 TO 3.6. and as others have said depending on your fruit and berry wine shoot for 6,lbs to 10,lbs per gallon ,, like banana or apple 10 lbs per gallon, where as black berrie and elderberries 6 lbs per gallon, backsweeten to 1'040, but to each there own
Dawg


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## robert81650

Your right Dawg, got to sweetened it for it to be good............1.040 sounds about right.....


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## BernardSmith

but 1.040 is about 1 lb of sugar in a gallon of wine or about 3.2 oz in a bottle... That is a lot of sugar.


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## Scooter68

Agree. Personal tastes dictate but for me most all of my fruit wines are bottled off-dry or slightly sweet. Normally between 1.000 and 1.010 tips. Exceptions now and then but pretty much in that range. A few have been bottled at .998 but mostly 1.005.


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## hounddawg

BernardSmith said:


> but 1.040 is about 1 lb of sugar in a gallon of wine or about 3.2 oz in a bottle... That is a lot of sugar.



lol,,, hence the word sweet,,,, i've been in all but 2 of the lower 48, down south lol ,,we have a drink one of the best drinks made in the world, we call it Sweet Tea,,,, again the word sweet,,, robert81650 where he lives you'll find it just like here in Arkansas, i know you purest no offence develop your paullet, for wines yawl describe as chalky, earthy,leather, and so on, i do not have a opaluet (cant spell right now) what we good old boys shoot for is good, candy, sweet, fruit like, and for us to describe anything like oak, well run towards that will be a offset stick smoker. mines preloaded right now with hickory,white oak and pecan, equally ,, dang if tomorrow is even close to pretty i'm smoking ribs, farm raised pork ribs,
Dawg


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## hounddawg

BernardSmith said:


> but 1.040 is about 1 lb of sugar in a gallon of wine or about 3.2 oz in a bottle... That is a lot of sugar.



dang, the way you stated that, i can see the shock on your face, thank you,,, i needed that smile
Dawg


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## robert81650

Tell em Dawg, Just what I wanted to say and you bet me to it...............................


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## hounddawg

robert81650 said:


> Tell em Dawg, Just what I wanted to say and you bet me to it...............................



hard to believe, i guess we should of shared the sweet tea,, NAW, BAHWAAA
Dawg


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## hounddawg

wineon4 said:


> I make fruit wines only, no kits, all made from scratch with fresh fruit and juice. Had a bottle of Blackberry last evening with a salad for dinner it was great. Currently have a Rhubarb and a Cherry in carboys. Plan to make another 20 gallon of Rhubarb this weekend.



same for me country wines from scratch only, never done a kit nore any grape, blackberry is great, no oak needed, blackberry i use 5 to 6 lbs per gallon and plenty sugar, your lighter fruits like banana , apple so on so forth 10 to 12 lbs per gallon,,,,,
Dawg


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## G259

Wow! Way too sweet for me. I generally back sweeten to .996, to 1.00. 
I have 10 bottles of cran-grape wine at 1.040, that I can't tolerate.
I haven't tried them for 6 mo., and they may be bad now (1.25 yo.)


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## BernardSmith

hounddawg said:


> lol,,, hence the word sweet,,,, i've been in all but 2 of the lower 48, down south lol ,,we have a drink one of the best drinks made in the world, we call it Sweet Tea,,,, again the word sweet,,, robert81650 where he lives you'll find it just like here in Arkansas, i know you purest no offence develop your paullet, for wines yawl describe as chalky, earthy,leather, and so on, i do not have a opaluet (cant spell right now) what we good old boys shoot for is good, candy, sweet, fruit like, and for us to describe anything like oak, well run towards that will be a offset stick smoker. mines preloaded right now with hickory,white oak and pecan, equally ,, dang if tomorrow is even close to pretty i'm smoking ribs, farm raised pork ribs,
> Dawg



Everyone has their own taste and preferences but I would think that it would be hard to drink a wine that sweet but then I didn't grow up drinking soda.


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## Scooter68

Personal preferences vary - for me I don't want the sweetness covering the details of the wine. (Not to mention all this calories it adds.)


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## hounddawg

BernardSmith said:


> Everyone has their own taste and preferences but I would think that it would be hard to drink a wine that sweet but then I didn't grow up drinking soda.



oh no not sodas. sweet tea, lol,, before i cut back, i drank 2 gallons a day with 3 coffee cups of sugar in each gallon or 6 musred cups per gallon, when i found out i had diabetes i had 75 pounds of sugar in the freezer , my doc said i could not quit all at once or i'd go into withdraws, i gave up my sweet tea, and that very day, now the only sweet tea i drink is if i eat out about 4 times a year, i keep sprite or 7up for upset stomach, maybe 8 or 9 a year, i'd quit drinking alcohol at age 30 till 5 of my doctors wanted me to drink red wines, for the antioxidants,age 48,, lemon, elderberry, and a couple more have the most, i drink 1 to 2 glasses a day, i've tried proper very high dollar wine, no offence but i'd rather drink dirty toilet water, as i have stated i have no refined palate,, and i am fine with my ways and i have zero problems with the ways you like and do, yawl make what yawl like and thats cool, but i make what i like because if i did not suit myself then i'd not make anything, my sweetness varies by fruit , my skeeter pee port uses 1 lemon concentrate per gallon, SG 1.040 and one fifth pure grain alcohol per 6 gallon, hard to tell from southern lemonade, until your getting backup bleeding,,,lol 
Dawg


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## hounddawg

Scooter68 said:


> Personal preferences vary - for me I don't want the sweetness covering the details of the wine. (Not to mention all this calories it adds.)



with enough fruit or berries nothing is covered up, as for grapes that i aint got a clue about,


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## hounddawg

G259 said:


> Wow! Way too sweet for me. I generally back sweeten to .996, to 1.00.
> I have 10 bottles of cran-grape wine at 1.040, that I can't tolerate.
> I haven't tried them for 6 mo., and they may be bad now (1.25 yo.)


although i made about everything i could find in the fruit and berry line, i now mainly make, blackberry, blackberry/elderberry mix, strawberry, apple/pear mix, skeeter pee port, and banana only for my younger brother, banana is way to much work, i use zero fruit packs, everything i make iis stirred by drill and that churns my fruits and berries up, but i feel the extra trouble is worth the better more fruity taste i get from my wines, up north,out east and west they sell ice tea, you have to add your own sugar, below the mason dixon line we have sweet tea and gravy and biscuits, listen to everyone of yawl i respect what you like, i've spent much time away from home and i know every place has slight differences, so i have my ways and each of yawl have your ways, i am good with that, i have seen proper wine drinkers that can blindly tell you most every wine by taste alone that amazes me, But i like my country wines, now if you folks want some fair wines you could try TJ SWAN or BOONES FARM, MAD DOG 2020 lol,, sorry i could not resist, i respect your ways and likes, but i am like the scorpion and the frog, this is just the way i am, i like sweet drinks, or sours but that's for other forums lol,,, but i'm older broken down but still getting up no matter what, and my only poison left to me is my sweet country wines,


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## G259

G259 said:


> Wow! Way too sweet for me. I generally back sweeten to .996, to 1.00.
> I have 10 bottles of cran-grape wine at 1.040, that I can't tolerate.
> I haven't tried them for 6 mo., and they may be bad now (1.25 yo.)



Yes, 'To each his own'. BTW, I just blended that cran-grape with an apple wine at .990, and I thought that the wine would be bad. At an SG of ~.998, I think that this may be the best wine that I have made, even though the apple wine (.990) was only 3 mo. old!


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