# Topping up with water



## KenS (Jan 29, 2012)

I keep reading about using a similar wine to top up a carboy, or adding marbles or beads to fill the volume.

Here's an interesting post from WineExpert that suggests that water is not only ok to use, but is the basis of the kit contents.

Interesting...


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## SarahRides (Jan 29, 2012)

You could.........but it will probably water down the wine, make it thin.


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## winemaker_3352 (Jan 29, 2012)

You can always use water to top off with. Would I suggest doing it - no.

I would stick with a like wine..


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## KenS (Jan 29, 2012)

SarahRides said:


> You could.........but it will probably water down the wine, make it thin.



Did you read the linked blog post? The manufacturer of the kit says that you are supposed to use water.


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## SarahRides (Jan 29, 2012)

I had done that once when I first started with a Chardonnay kit (as per the kit instructions) and it came out pretty thin, so I haven't done it since. I've been using wine ever since.


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## Flem (Jan 29, 2012)

I can only imagine what a 10L kit would taste like if you used water to top it off a couple of times.


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## dangerdave (Jan 29, 2012)

I top with similar wine. No water! Like the others, this was after watering down what might have been better wine.


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## KenS (Jan 29, 2012)

dangerdave said:


> I top with similar wine. No water! Like the others, this was after watering down what might have been better wine.



So interesting. It is clear from so many other threads that most people top up with wine, not water. I guess I thought that if the manufacturer actually wrote an explanation as to *why* water is the recommended way to do it, then people might consider that. 

From the blog post:


> And that's what throws some folks. The concern is that the wine is going fine--won't adding water at this point dilute it? Wouldn't it be better to use wine to top it up, to prevent a loss of flavour and aroma? We continue to get calls on this, year in and year out at Winexpert.
> 
> The answer is yes, the water will dilute the wine--to exactly the level we want it to be diluted! You see, all Winexpert kits are made to 4% over strength, with extra Brix levels and Total Dissolved Solid material calculated to produce a kit that will work out perfectly at 23 litres + 4%, which is 0.92 litres, or about a US quart.



So maybe people just like wine that is 4% over strength or do they not believe what Winexpert says they are doing in formulating the kits?


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## milbrosa (Jan 30, 2012)

Try it as the manufacturer recommends and see if you like the results. Everyone's tastes are different.

I did one WE kit where I topped with water, and the wine came out a bit soft for me. It might have produced the wine the kit designer intended, but it wasn't what I wanted. I personally think that the WE kits need that 4% extra, so I now top with wine. 

Here's another thing to consider. Some 23 liter or 6 gallon carboys actually hold more than that volume. In fact, I suspect they all do. I have some 6 gallon carboys made in Mexico, and some made in Italy. I filled them gallon by gallon and marked them with a piece of black electrical tape at each gallon. The six gallon mark on the Mexican carboys is about 4 inches below the bottom of the bung. On the Italian carboy, it's about 6 inches below the bung. I also measured the volume at two inches below the bung, and the Italian carboy held substantially more volume than the Mexican one. I can't remember now how much.

If you top up with water to within 2 inches of the bung, you're going to dilute it beyond the added 4% concentration of the WE kits. 

Measure your carboys and see how much they really hold. Then decide if you want to top with water or with wine.


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## dangerdave (Jan 30, 2012)

KenS said:


> So interesting. It is clear from so many other threads that most people top up with wine, not water. I guess I thought that if the manufacturer actually wrote an explanation as to *why* water is the recommended way to do it, then people might consider that.



Considered and rejected. Most of the kits I make (Vinifera) say to use wine to top off carboys. But that's what's great about a kit. Once I buy it, it's mine. I don't have to (and I always change _something_) follow their orders.

I say  on them! It's my kit!!!


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## Wade E (Jan 30, 2012)

Most of the kits ive made were already thinner than a commercial wine so adding water IMO is not the way to go! I fully understand what they are saying here but diluting it down any further is a + and gives me a fuller wine. The slightly higher abv diff is very minute.


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## KenS (Jan 30, 2012)

You guys have me convinced. I'd rather listen to experience over theory; the reason I joined this forum is to learn faster then just my own trial and error (of course, there will be plenty of that too )


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## robie (Jan 30, 2012)

Like Wade wrote, a wine kit is going to be thinner than a comparable commercial wine. Although diluting with water may result in the wine being at the proper strength, it will also result in a thinner wine.


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## JohnT (Jan 30, 2012)

Let me be clear.. 

Never, ever, under any circumstances, ever use water as a top off. 

I can not disagree with your article more!

water thins out the tannins, lowers alcohal levels, raises the PH, and thins out the flavor and body.

Why would anybody consider doing this? It is Far, Far, better to go and get a simular bottle of wine (store bought) and use that for top off! 

In short, If you use water, "badness this way comes"!

johnT.


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## Dugger (Jan 30, 2012)

I think most of this is driven by mindset and gut feelings. I know I use wine to top up, but I have lots of wine to use for that purpose, so it's not like I have to go out and buy some. 
If the wine is _designed_ for the addition of a certain amount of water, then what is wrong with using it? I would expect this means the tannins, alcohol level, pH, etc. is where it is supposed to be for this wine.
Heck, why not_ reduce_ the amount of water by a liter, 2 liters .. how about 4 liters so it fits a 19 liter/5USgal carboy .. then it would really have body!! But we recommend against that because it unbalances the wine. 
I don't think the amount of 4% one way or the other makes a whole lot of difference in the end product. I'd rather focus on ways to reduce the amount of topup - like not being afraid to carry over sediment, saving sediment in a bottle for later use, etc.


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## JohnT (Jan 31, 2012)

Dugger, 

One thing that kits afford is the ability to maintain optimum levels of sugar, acids/ph. 

Why would you want to throw this off just so that you can add water to top off. 

It would be far better to maintain the optimum concentrations and top off with a little store bought wine.


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## KenS (Jan 31, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Dugger,
> 
> One thing that kits afford is the ability to maintain optimum levels of sugar, acids/ph.
> 
> ...



Ah, but that's exactly the point. If you read the original post on this, the point is that the kit is _designed_ to add water, not wine. So turning your question around, why would you want to throw this off just so that you can add wine to top off?


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## cpfan (Jan 31, 2012)

Yet another wine making topic with multiple "correct" answers. Although some folks are kinda "strong" in defense of their approach.

JohnT...do you make kits?

For me, it depends how much liquid is required. Not much, then I use water. A lot, then "let's see, what wine do I have in my cellar?"

Steve


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## Wade E (Jan 31, 2012)

Im not really sure where to go with this as there is rwally no totally wrong or right answer. I must say that if you add the directed amount of water to begin with to reach their gauge on where the starting sg should be and you fall short in the carboy later by 2 bottles or so and especially with a W.E. kit where tyey have you rack over everything you should be as balanced as can be so using water at this point will dilute your wine way too much IMO! If its just 1/2 a bottle or so I wouldnt worry that much but I would still use wine myself.


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## DoctorCAD (Jan 31, 2012)

Wade E said:


> Im not really sure where to go with this as there is rwally no totally wrong or right answer. I must say that if you add the directed amount of water to begin with to reach their gauge on where the starting sg should be and you fall short in the carboy later by 2 bottles or so and especially with a W.E. kit where tyey have you rack over everything you should be as balanced as can be so using water at this point will dilute your wine way too much IMO! If its just 1/2 a bottle or so I wouldnt worry that much but I would still use wine myself.



I think that one thing that is missing from this argument is how racking is explained in the OP's post. 

I totally understand the "wine vs. water" argument, but according to the WE expert, there should not be more than 1 quart of water ever added, and that is assuming that you have racked as per the article. Personally, I will try it there way on my next kit, "sucking up everything that fits into the racking cane." If only 1 quart of water is added, that wouldn't dilute the finished product.

Currently, I use Welches top-off wine for all of my kits...

Remember, if you quit learning new stuff, you might as well just go back to bed.


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## Dugger (Jan 31, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Dugger,
> 
> One thing that kits afford is the ability to maintain optimum levels of sugar, acids/ph.
> 
> ...



As KenS mentions, it seems the kit is designed to be at optimum levels including this 4% top up. Perhaps the wine top up would throw off the levels.
In any event, as I mentioned before, I don't think 800-900 mls one way or the other is going to make a whole lot of difference.
Interestingly, I recently made a RJS Winery Series kit (supertuscan) and it comes with 16 liters juice and a grape jam pack. When you add the jam to the 23 liters of must, the volume is increased and when I racked to a carboy I used an Italian one and filled it plus a 375 ml bottle. I then racked that off sediment to a Mexican carboy and it filled it quite nicely for bulk ageing so I avoided top up altogether. I think that will be my strategy from now on - Winery Series kits!!


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## saddlebronze (Jan 31, 2012)

I think the fun part of topping up with wine is you get to taste the "top off stuff" first! In fact since racking does not have to be done on an exact date, I do mine when I happen to have a white or red open already. Everyone wins!


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## JohnT (Jan 31, 2012)

Wade E said:


> Im not really sure where to go with this as there is rwally no totally wrong or right answer. I must say that if you add the directed amount of water to begin with to reach their gauge on where the starting sg should be and you fall short in the carboy later by 2 bottles or so and especially with a W.E. kit where tyey have you rack over everything you should be as balanced as can be so using water at this point will dilute your wine way too much IMO! If its just 1/2 a bottle or so I wouldnt worry that much but I would still use wine myself.



Wade, That about sums up what I am trying to say. 

The kits are designed with a specific amount of water in mind to maintain optimum levels. If you hold back on the amount of water you add, then you will be fermenting in a higher than normal acid/sugar level. 

I am just saying that it would be best to add the correct (optimum) amount of water up front, then top off with wine later.


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## Wade E (Jan 31, 2012)

JohnT said:


> Wade, That about sums up what I am trying to say.
> 
> The kits are designed with a specific amount of water in mind to maintain optimum levels. If you hold back on the amount of water you add, then you will be fermenting in a higher than normal acid/sugar level.
> 
> I am just saying that it would be best to add the correct (optimum) amount of water up front, then top off with wine later.



My thoughts exactly. If youve added the right amount to begin with then you should be where you should be, balanced. I agree with the other post as the grape skin kits typically have enough in them to not need topping up later with anything and I find these kits much better and much fuller than any kit that doesnt.


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## dangerdave (Feb 1, 2012)

I've toyed with my kits in many more ways than adding extra water. That's how you learn: Experimentation! Extra sugar, extra tannin, more acid, less water. Hey! It's MY kit!

I have yet to have one turn out badly.


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## milbrosa (Feb 1, 2012)

JohnT said:


> The kits are designed with a specific amount of water in mind to maintain optimum levels. If you hold back on the amount of water you add, then you will be fermenting in a higher than normal acid/sugar level.
> 
> I am just saying that it would be best to add the correct (optimum) amount of water up front, then top off with wine later.



This doesn't seem applicable to the OPs question. You are talking about fermenting less than six gallons. KenS didn't ask about leaving any water out up front. He is talking about the WE kit instructions, which tell you to top up your carboy with water during the clearing and stabilization phase. At that point, fermentation is already complete so there isn't any concern about fermenting in higher than normal acid/sugar level.


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## Bacci (Feb 4, 2012)

After stabilizing stage in a Better Bottle or 6 gallon mexican carboy, I rack off to a 5 gallon mexican carboy plus a 3 liter jug, there's usually not topping up depending on sediment and further oaking. After 3/4 months of aging, I may bottle the 3 liter jug and rack the 5 gallon to continue bulk aging. I've got 4 bottles to sample along the way or compare to future bottles. That's only 29 bottles but no cost for additional topping.


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