# Barriques vs Puncheons: Differences



## Kitchen (Jun 4, 2021)

Other the obvious size difference, how extreme is the effects of wood flavor, oxidation and evaporation between these two sizes? 

I have read varying opinions on this from puncheons provide almost no flavor to they will impart a flavor that is more subtle but still there.


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## Johnd (Jun 4, 2021)

The difference between the two is the size, generally with the barrique being your "standard" 225 L (60 gallon) barrel, and the puncheon being 500 L (roughly 133 gallons) in size. That's the difference in the products, but the effect each has on wine, over time, is different.

Assuming they are made from the exact same oak, same thickness, etc, the barrique will impart goodies into the wine more quickly than the puncheon. The effects of micro-oxygenation are also realized more quickly in the barrique vs the puncheon, all for the same reason. The reason is that in smaller vs larger vessels, the volume of wine to surface area of wood contact is greater in the larger vessels than the smaller ones. Smaller vessels with identical wood profiles will always "do their thing" much more quickly due to this factor. Problem is, if you hit the flavor threshold too quickly, like in a new 6 gallon barrel, you may not have the wine in the barrel long enough to take advantage of the effects of micro-oxygenation and concentration.

For instance, we might only leave a wine in a new 6 gallon barrel for just a few short weeks before the oak flavor level dictates that it's time to remove the wine, whereas you might leave wine in a 60 gallon barrel for 1 to 2 years before the oak flavor gets to the point where you're ready to pull it. Leaving wine in a 6 gallon barrel for 1 - 2 years will over-oak the wine, and probably cause it to become oxidized as well. Leaving wine in a 60 gallon barrel for a month will probably have negligible effects upon it's taste, and little micro-oxygenation will be realized. 

The time you leave your wine in a barrel must be right-sized to the barrel volume itself in order to achieve the desired results. We pretty much already know from experience that a year or two in a 60 will provide excellent oaking / microx / concentration opportunities for a wine. With the 133 being so much larger, it may take several more years to hit the oak level of a a 60, if it ever does, and you'd also need to worry about too much oxygenation, thought this is only my speculation, having zero experience with puncheon sized wood barrels.........................


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## Kitchen (Jun 4, 2021)

Yes, and thank you for the info. 

I am more wondering if I wanted a less wood flavor then I would get from a barrique but still have the same time of aging (say 18 months), how much less flavor it would be with using a puncheon. 

I am thinking if I wanted to maximize aging but still have some wood flavor, would a puncheon be good for that.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 4, 2021)

@sour_grapes presented a formula that is interesting, and probably close to reality.





2nd Annual M.A.N.E. Event


they would more likely go neutral at the same time. . Not really but closer.




www.winemakingtalk.com





I agree with @Johnd on all points.

Sometimes it helps to see numbers to visualize things. The chart below is taken from a barrel FAQ on homebrewing.org
Note that surface area is for a specific barrel design, but is a reasonable approximation for other barrel dimensions.




The key value in the table is _Surface to Volume Ratio_. When this ratio is high (smaller barrel), the wine gets more contact with the wood per liter of volume, so the extraction of oak character is higher.

When the value is low (larger barrel), there is more surface through which to evaporate, so we have more evaporation, and I assume micro-oxidation.

@Kitchen, is your question philosophical or practical, meaning are you planning to make a batch that will fit a puncheon?

If so, you need to take into account the amount of evaporation from a larger barrel. I have 54 liter / 14.25 gallon barrels, which evaporate about 10% per year, so for a year's aging I need to start with 16 gallons of wine.

If the evaporation rate was the same with a puncheon, you'd need to start with 150 gallons of wine, and would need an addition 15 for the 2nd year. However if the evaporation rate is greater (which I expect is so) you need even more wine than that.

An alternate is to use neutral barrels of whatever size. You get the concentration effect without imparting too much oak, and can add oak adjuncts to impart as much oak character as you want. This has the advantage that you can mix-n-match oak adjuncts, e.g., French heavy toast + American medium toast.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 4, 2021)

@Johnd, what is your evaporation rate from 60 gallon barrels? This is idle curiosity on my part.


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## Kitchen (Jun 4, 2021)

Thanks. 

This is more of a practical question at this point. I am a rather entrepreneurial person and I am exploring the idea of doing small production mead runs coming at the production from a wine making direction, with barrel usage being part of that. I have been testing out different recipes for about 9 months now and have five 12 gallon barrels with mead in them. One of the meads I plan on producing would be a light crisp mead at around 11% ABV that I would like to get optimal oxidation and reduction from long term barreling, but not too heavy of an Acacia flavor. I was thinking puncheons would be best, but going back and forth between how much is too much and how much can I get from a puncheon. 

I did a quick search and the SA to volume ration for a puncheon is 39 square inches per gallon. For a barrique it is 51. So about a 21% decrease in flavor. 

FYI, evaporation rate in an Acacia barrel I am finding to be rather intense, at about 4 times that of European oak.


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## BarrelMonkey (Jun 4, 2021)

If it helps, puncheons also come in 400L (106 gal) sizes as well as 500L


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## mainshipfred (Jun 4, 2021)

Interesting chart @winemaker81, just wish it had the sizes we use. I believe evaporation has a bit to do with humidity as well. As far as micro oxygenation, although the larger surface of a larger barrel will introduce more oxygen, I believe the volume to surface ratio increases the amount of oxygen introduced in smaller barrels per the volume of wine.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 4, 2021)

@Kitchen, Instead of looking for a single solution, have you considered mixing and matching? Use a variety of barrels -- different sizes, woods, and ages. Acacia and larger oak barrels for evaporation, smaller new barrels for wood flavoring, and neutral barrels + oak adjuncts for similar flavoring. Then blend to produce different styles of mead.

Among other advantages, you can produce more consistent meads from year to year.

@mainshipfred, I did just a quick search, but found little on barrel surface area, probably because it's so variable. From what I read, length is fairly consistent, but the curvature varies a lot. I have 2 barrels which I believe are from the same manufacturer in the same year (2010) - one has a consistent curvature while the other does not.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 4, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Kitchen, Instead of looking for a single solution, have you considered mixing and matching? Use a variety of barrels -- different sizes, woods, and ages. Acacia and larger oak barrels for evaporation, smaller new barrels for wood flavoring, and neutral barrels + oak adjuncts for similar flavoring. Then blend to produce different styles of mead.
> 
> Among other advantages, you can produce more consistent meads from year to year.
> 
> @mainshipfred, I did just a quick search, but found little on barrel surface area, probably because it's so variable. From what I read, length is fairly consistent, but the curvature varies a lot. I have 2 barrels which I believe are from the same manufacturer in the same year (2010) - one has a consistent curvature while the other does not.



Yep, they are for the most part hand made by hand so you would have to expect them to have some variances.


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## Kitchen (Jun 4, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Kitchen, Instead of looking for a single solution, have you considered mixing and matching? Use a variety of barrels -- different sizes, woods, and ages. Acacia and larger oak barrels for evaporation, smaller new barrels for wood flavoring, and neutral barrels + oak adjuncts for similar flavoring. Then blend to produce different styles of mead.
> 
> Among other advantages, you can produce more consistent meads from year to year.
> 
> @mainshipfred, I did just a quick search, but found little on barrel surface area, probably because it's so variable. From what I read, length is fairly consistent, but the curvature varies a lot. I have 2 barrels which I believe are from the same manufacturer in the same year (2010) - one has a consistent curvature while the other does not.



I do not like the idea of having various sizes of barrels for the same product. I would actually see that as an implement to having consistent meads year after year, in addition to keeping track of the yearly variances in honey. 

I would rather achieve my complexity though using many barrels with different toast levels for the same mead and then blending, like a winery does. I also am experimenting with Frankenstein barrels where the shell is made with Acacia and the heads are made with toasted oak. I also barrel fermented three of them and will be Sur Lee aging them for 4 to 9 months, depending on the mead, so we will see where that goes. (Thankfully all three had very clean fermentations with no sulfur detected, so far ...)

Insofar as creating different meads, the variety of honeys certainly allows for that already. Of course, as with wine, the question is do you ferment separately and then blend, or field blend and then ferment?


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## Ajmassa (Jun 4, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @sour_grapes presented a formula that is interesting, and probably close to reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol. that was a fun thread. and an interesting rabbit hole to fall into. the fact that smaller barrels defy logic and go neutral faster and the whole tossing an oak plank into the ocean argument.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 4, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> lol. that was a fun thread. and an interesting rabbit hole to fall into. the fact that smaller barrels defy logic and go neutral faster and the whole tossing an oak plank into the ocean argument.


I wasn't present for the thread, and intend to read it through.


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## Johnd (Jun 4, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @Johnd, what is your evaporation rate from 60 gallon barrels? This is idle curiosity on my part.


A brand new barrel gobbles around 4 bottles every two weeks for a month or so, then it seems to moderate down to a bottle or so per month. I normally try to bottle 3 cases of the same wine that’s in the barrel to use for topping up over the 1.5 - 2 year sit. It’s usually pretty close to that, if I don’t do a lot of barrel tasting.


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## sour_grapes (Jun 4, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> lol. that was a fun thread. and an interesting rabbit hole to fall into. the fact *supposition* that smaller barrels defy logic and go neutral faster and the whole tossing an oak plank into the ocean argument.



FIFY


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## winemaker81 (Jun 5, 2021)

Johnd said:


> A brand new barrel gobbles around 4 bottles every two weeks for a month or so, then it seems to moderate down to a bottle or so per month. I normally try to bottle 3 cases of the same wine that’s in the barrel to use for topping up over the 1.5 - 2 year sit. It’s usually pretty close to that, if I don’t do a lot of barrel tasting.


Interesting -- your rate with a 60 is only double mine with a 14. I expected more, but referring to the table I posted, it actually makes sense.

I performed mental gymnastics with the surface to volume ratio between 200 and 20 liter barrels, which is 2.12 (according to the table I posted). You have a ~225 liter and mine is 54, and I tried extrapolating a ratio and am not confident of my results. The ratio between the 225 and 54 is certainly less than 2, so your barrel evaporates less wine than I guessed. based upon volume.

Of course, our storage conditions are different -- my humidity is low and temperature is high, so my conditions are not ideal. I will search for a more comprehensive table of barrel sizes, so I'll have facts to work from, not wild-assed guesses.

Nothing regarding barrels seems to be linear.


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## Johnd (Jun 5, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Interesting -- your rate with a 60 is only double mine with a 14. I expected more, but referring to the table I posted, it actually makes sense.
> 
> I performed mental gymnastics with the surface to volume ratio between 200 and 20 liter barrels, which is 2.12 (according to the table I posted). You have a ~225 liter and mine is 54, and I tried extrapolating a ratio and am not confident of my results. The ratio between the 225 and 54 is certainly less than 2, so your barrel evaporates less wine than I guessed. based upon volume.
> 
> ...


There are certainly other things to consider as you continue evaluating, one of which is pretty big, is wood. My barrels are all 22 or 25 mm French oak, cut from some million year old forest in a some fancy location, it’s supposed to be very dense and tight grained. Can’t help but think that could be a major player in the evaluation compared to other species / locations. We’re dealing with a natural product, no two trees, even growing 5 feet apart, are identical. Imagine the variation between species, age, and continents.

You already mentioned temps and humidity, which are also big players, and mine are the inverse of your higher temps and lower humidity. The cellar is constant year round between 55° F and 58° F, with humidity always in the 72% - 75% range. Temps probably play a smaller role, but I suspect humidity to be a major player in the evaporation rate.

In the end, I think experience lends us lots of insight into what to expect from a barrel, at least generally. Sharing those experiences becomes a valuable proposition for folks who age in barrels. Even in that arena, with all of the different barrel types, sizes, thicknesses, storage conditions, and taste preferences, it seems as though we mostly have similar results. Short a mathematical equation to take into account all of the variables in barrels, it is what it is. We add what we need to to top off, we keep up with sulfite, take wine out when it’s ready, and marvel at the transformation at something we made in a vessel type that’s been used successfully, and never replaced by superior methods, for centuries.


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## winemaker81 (Jun 5, 2021)

@Johnd, you hit the nail on the head on all points. One of my goals is to provide a starting point for new barrel owners -- the one consistent question I see from potential barrel owners is, "what do I do?" I expect this prevents people from doing it, and I know it's one reason I didn't buy a barrel decades ago.

For me jumping in? It was easy -- in 2019 I purchased a 10 yo French oak barrel from a member in our local grape co-op. He told me all about the barrel, especially topping amounts. Last December I purchased their other 54 liter barrel, and am very comfortable with what I'm doing. So for me, already an experienced winemaker, it was easy. It was (and still is) a learning experience, but not especially difficult.

For most it's not easy -- as you said, anything we can share helps a lot.

At this point I have no idea just how valuable the ratio of internal surface area to volume is. As you said, there are SOOO many factors, so I accept it may be worthless knowledge. However, I'm thinking it will have _some _value, but will not provide definitive answers.

But that's ok, it's fun doing the research, keeps the grey cells active!


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