# Propagating Norton Grapes



## Justintime

I would like to propagate some new Norton (Cynthiana) vines from cuttings but I have read that this doesn't work. Has anyone had experience with this, is it true? If so, do you know an alternative method?


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## robie

Justintime said:


> I would like to propagate some new Norton (Cynthiana) vines from cuttings but I have read that this doesn't work. Has anyone had experience with this, is it true? If so, do you know an alternative method?



I have read the same thing; the success rate can be very, very low. There is a large vineyard/winery in Virginia that hired a specialist to try and improve the percentage of success in propagating Norton. They got the percentage up, but still not anywhere near what other varieties reach. 
Sorry, I don't remember the name of the vineyard, but it is the central vineyard written about in the book "Wild Vines". I don't know if they will share their techniques or not.

If you find out more, please let us know.


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## saddlebronze

The best way to propagate Norton is layering. You take one vine (or a few) and bend the shoots down to the ground and cover them with dirt. When they sprout back up, cut them from the parent vine and transplant.


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## Boatboy24

robie said:


> I have read the same thing; the success rate can be very, very low. There is a large vineyard/winery in Virginia that hired a specialist to try and improve the percentage of success in propagating Norton. They got the percentage up, but still not anywhere near what other varieties reach.
> Sorry, I don't remember the name of the vineyard, but it is the central vineyard written about in the book "Wild Vines". I don't know if they will share their techniques or not.
> 
> If you find out more, please let us know.



I think it was here:
http://www.chrysaliswine.com/

A friend of mine plays there in a jazz quartet during summer weekends. Its a beautiful winery that makes some very nice wines.


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## Justintime

Thank you all


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## robie

Boatboy24 said:


> I think it was here:
> http://www.chrysaliswine.com/
> 
> A friend of mine plays there in a jazz quartet during summer weekends. Its a beautiful winery that makes some very nice wines.




Yep, that is the winery. They have started to have much better than typical success propagating the Norton.

Thanks


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## deboard

Yes, they are claiming 70% rooting success, which is much better than the 0% I've had. I have three cuttings in water right now, maybe I'll get 70% this time, but I doubt it.


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## robie

deboard said:


> Yes, they are claiming 70% rooting success, which is much better than the 0% I've had. I have three cuttings in water right now, maybe I'll get 70% this time, but I doubt it.



Did they tell you how they were saving 70%?


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## deboard

No, I just read it in their 'history' section.


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## Jah_Son

I've heard rooting green cuttings under mist is way more effective than trying to do it with dormant cuttings like most other grapes. I'll be trying it in about a month.


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## TJsBasement

When I was reading stuff about aeroponics, grape propagation from green cuttings come up, I dont have anything with enough green growth to try yet but the low pressure aeroponics system is very simple to make or people are using a ultra sonic fogger to make a very fine mist, all cheap stuff or you could do true high pressure aeroponics, pressure pump, small mic filters, nozzles measured by micron it's just gets more expensive real quick but thats the real deal.


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## Jah_Son

I have a homemade cloner I made out of a storage bin. I'll try that, too, I guess.


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## runswithsizzers

*questions about layering Norton/Cyanthiana*



saddlebronze said:


> The best way to propagate Norton is layering. You take one vine (or a few) and bend the shoots down to the ground and cover them with dirt. When they sprout back up, cut them from the parent vine and transplant.



I realize this is an old thread, but I have been searching for specific information about propagation of Norton/Cynthiana for hours. This thread is one of the few I have found that offers anything other than vague references to layering.

This spring I buried a couple of last year's shoots when the buds were just beginning to swell. Now I have lots of fresh green shoots, some more than a foot long. I've pruned all the new shoots from the lower trunks of most of my vines - just not sure if I should also prune back excess vegetation from my layered vines?

My main question is: How do I tell when it's time to sever the layered vines from the parent plant? 

Should I wait a year (next spring) or look for some sign that the vine is ready to make it on it's own? I could dig them up and check for roots, but that sounds like rough handling for a baby vine. 

Saddlebronze says to cut them from the parent plant when they "sprout back up" - does that mean to wait until new shoots come out of the ground from the buried vines?

And after I cut the layered vines from the parent plant, should they be transplanted immediately, or should I let the vine grow on it's own for a while before trying to transplant it?


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## salcoco

wait until vine is dormant in spring and then transplant as it would be if purchased from a nursery. dig gently when ready to sever around the root growth,if layered vine is long enough underground,maybe able to cut root segment in half and get two vines. one towards the mother plant and one past the point of layer. good luck.


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## runswithsizzers

salcoco, Thanks!

In case someone else comes across this thread while looking for similar information, I'll pass on another link which was provided to me by Jennifer McCloud at Chrysalis Vineyards:
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/propagate-grape-vine-layering-21880.html

BTW, she says they do not propagate by layering at Chrysalis. I did not follow up to find out what method they use. She also provided a link to this YouTube video which shows air layering (though not specifically with Norton/Cynthiana):
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJuUW_SyhMw[/ame]


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## Jah_Son

I had good results (about 25% rooted from all kinds of cuttings, big, little, anything) from cuttings under mist. I used a cheap solar mister timer that I *THINK* is off the market now.

This winter I rooted 8/20 (40%) from (large- 10-12 inch) dormant cuttings.

I used a heat mat set to 85*, and dipped them in Dip n Grow.

Chrysalis uses HUGE bottom-heated trays in rented temperature controlled trailers, so that the root zone calluses and starts the rooting process while the tops are still cold-dormant. They bottom-heat root thousands and thousands at a time. 

They also sell them, so if you want to just buy them instaed of investing in heat mats and misters and stuff, you can get them from Chrysalis and be guaranteed you got the right stuff that makes some seriously good wine


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## marquettematt

Hi,

On the subject of dormant vines, you might try taking the cuttings early on. There are chemicals in the plant that cause it to stay dormant and if it's in the cuttings you intend to root, you should get extra time before the cuttings start to push their buds and drain the cuttings of their nutrient reserves. Just a thought.


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## runswithsizzers

Thanks to all who replied. Right now I need only 2 vines to fill out the gaps in my rows, so I'd like to keep it as simple as possible. Maybe after I retire I'll have more time to expand the vineyard.

In addition to the 2 vines I've laid down for layering, I plan to try the air layering method (plastic bottle) shown in the video.


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## Masbustelo

With the air layering, be sure you put drainage holes at the bottom of the bottle. Possibly you might need to scrape back lightly the bark in a one inch band. Right where the middle of the bottle will go. Also don't let the dirt dry out, keep it watered. Air layering doesn't just work with grapes. It also works with hardwood, fruit trees, and many tropical varieties. Put several holes in the large end so you can suspend it with string. After a month to six weeks you should see evidence of roots.


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## jvincentiii

saddlebronze said:


> The best way to propagate Norton is layering. You take one vine (or a few) and bend the shoots down to the ground and cover them with dirt. When they sprout back up, cut them from the parent vine and transplant.


I have done this, and the success rate is very high using this method. It roots even faster than one might think.


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## treesaver

I started with about 12 norton bare roots 8 years ago. When pruning in the spring, I choose the most promising prunings, and propagate. I've increased the size ov my vineyard to right at 50 vines since then, just by rooting cuttings. I have had best luck with what are called "hammer" cuttings, and dip in rooting enzyme and keep indoors till they are doing well, then heel them in the first winter and plant in spring. I have had years when I've had better than 50% growth from cuttings. Just lucky I guess!


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## marquettematt

I'm really curious. Please give more details.


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## treesaver

marquettematt said:


> I'm really curious. Please give more details.



I guess your asking me, Matt?! like I said, select the prunings carefully. The "hammer" prunings are what take off the best....more stored energy I presume. I just dampen the hammer end, dip in rooting powder, and plant in potting soil. Keep damp and harden off when growing well. I usually move them outdoors in a 50/50 sun/shade area for the rest of the growing season, increasing the pot size by about july. (I start in 4 in. peat pots, then just plant the whole pot to increase the pot size. By fall they are about a foot tall, and I heel them into a loamy spot in my garden for winter. Cover with wire to keep the rabbits from eating them all off, then when the buds are setting, I pull them out and plant in the vinyard, with grow tubes and stakes. Like I said, maybe I'm just lucky, but I have had pretty fair luck just rooting them!


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## marquettematt

Yes treesaver. You talk about planting in fall so is it safe to assume that you live in the south? Do you use a heating mat/coils? When do you take the cuttings? How long does it your cuttings to generate roots?


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## treesaver

Hello again Matt. I live in NE Ks, about 30 mi from Ne. I said I heel in the propagated plants for overwintering. I have kept them over winter in a garage (non heated) and has worked just fine. While I have planted some in the fall, I much prefer to plant in the spring. I do not use a heating coil, just keep indoors for starting the new plants. I generally prune in late Feb or Mar, and select my cuttings to propagate. They usually start to bud and bud break by a month to six weeks, but I watch for roots to start pushing through the peat pots. Keep moist, and when I get quite a few roots showing, I replant in bigger plastic pots, planting peat pot and all. Hope this helps, Lee


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## Amanda660

I'm attempting this (not with Norton though) in late Feb. I figure if its a flop - its a flop but I have nothing to lose. Great input with the peat pots. Tractor Supply has Cow Pots (yes made from cow poop) on sale for .99 cents (12 - pint size) that I bought just for this endeavor. I really hope I'm half as successful!


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## marquettematt

Thanks treesaver. Norton is one of the most difficult varieties to propagate from dormant cuttings. I don't believe in luck in this matter. I'm just giving a hard look at your procedure to see what gives you an edge


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## treesaver

I also noticed that my success rate went up when going more to the "hammer" cuttings. Also, I try to select prunings that have the nodules closer together (where the buds come out of) seems to help also. Ironically, I was wanting to increase the size of my cataba vines, and had rather poor success this year on those! Maybe not luck.....sign of the moon?


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## garymc

What is a "hammer" cutting?


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## treesaver

I'll see if I can describe it! When you have a shoot off a stem, and you would cut just below and just above the shoot, then trim your 3-4 buds on the stem. It looks like a mallet, hence "hammer" cutting. If I knew how to post a pic, it would save a lot of typing!


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## garymc

I got it. I've made such cuttings before. Didn't know there was a name.


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## Stressbaby

Pic of a hammer cutting


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## treesaver

Yes, thank you Stressbaby!


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## marquettematt

Interesting, treesaver. When you said hammer cuttings, I just thought you meant bull canes. I'll have to try this.


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