# Oak powder question



## mplsbrewer (Jun 6, 2012)

So I bought my first kit of wine and had some questions about the powdered oak. I'm making the Wine Export Selection Original Pinot Noir and it comes with 2 packages of the powder but I was wondering if it is better to use either oak chips or cubes instead post fermentation. I have a package of medium toast french oak chips that I need in October for a Flanders Red sour beer I have aging and was thinking that some wine flavor on those chips would add some nice complexity and diminish the oakiness of them. 

So I obviously have no experience with this but something about oak powder just seems cheap to me when there are so many other options out there. I'm assuming this just speeds up the process which is why they are included.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jun 7, 2012)

First kit follow the rules. Second kit go crazy changing it for the better. Good luck, Crackedcork


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## shoebiedoo (Jun 7, 2012)

CrackedCork said:


> First kit follow the rules. Second kit go crazy changing it for the better. Good luck, Crackedcork


I agree. The kit manufacturers have a good reason for packaging the oak they did. The powder is very important for mouth feel. I'd stick to the recipe.


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## Geronimo (Sep 17, 2012)

Personally, I hate oak powder. Small bits work SO much better in a sock to keep the racking clean and the waste to a minimum.


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## BeerAlchemist (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm right there with you, from a brewing perspective I cringe at things like oak chips and powder...cubes or better for me. However, that is brewing. From what little I have gathered as such, the powder is used during fermentation and provides a character that oaking during maturation cannot...so, stick to the powder. I'm putting thoughts together on doing split batches to see how all these variables play out in the final product, I think that is the best way to learn ultimately.


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## ibglowin (Sep 17, 2012)

You don't think commercial wineries use oak powders/tannins?

Well they do. Lots of it, up front in the primary before it goes into the barrel. It adds a whole other dimension to the wine and your missing it by not using it.


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## tonyt (Sep 17, 2012)

Always use the oak powder. It has to do with color and mouthfeel. Doesnt really add much if any oak taste. Chips cubes and spirals do that. I add extra powder to any kit that doesnt come with it.


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## Geronimo (Sep 18, 2012)

Just to be clear; I use the powder, I just don't like the waste it generates. If there was a good way to tea bag the powder I'd be much happier with it. I've used the finer chips instead of the powder (and used 10-20% more to compensate) which seemed to serve the same purpose (I haven't conducted a scientific experiment to analyze it). When using the chips, I use a nylon stocking to contain them, and remove it before racking. This solves all the problems that can be associated with the powder. I'm not sure if it has a negative impact on the final product.


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## BeerAlchemist (Sep 18, 2012)

Geronimo said:


> Just to be clear; I use the powder, I just don't like the waste it generates. If there was a good way to tea bag the powder I'd be much happier with it. I've used the finer chips instead of the powder (and used 10-20% more to compensate) which seemed to serve the same purpose (I haven't conducted a scientific experiment to analyze it). When using the chips, I use a nylon stocking to contain them, and remove it before racking. This solves all the problems that can be associated with the powder. I'm not sure if it has a negative impact on the final product.



Thoughts on adding them to the sock with the grapeskins so you have only one package to deal with?


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## robie (Sep 18, 2012)

Oak powder has some qualities besides just adding oak flavor.
For reds, it can add mouth-feel and absorb off flavors, such as vegetal, a vegetative, herbaceous flavor of methoxy pyrazine caused by unripe grapes or poor vineyard practices. Some commercial wine makers will use untoasted or lite toasted oak powder just for this purpose. They may even add it routinely, as it doesn't add any serious oak flavor to the wine, but it can correct some serious problems that can't easily be tasted/tested for until fermentation is complete and it is too late to easily correct.

Methoxy pyrazine is typically not an issue in wine kits, but for fresh/frozen grapes and some fresh juice buckets, it can be a real batch killer.

I will always add some untoasted oak powder to every non-kit red grape wine I make. It's only considered overkill until the first time you end up with methoxy pyrazine.


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## Geronimo (Sep 18, 2012)

BeerAlchemist said:


> Thoughts on adding them to the sock with the grapeskins so you have only one package to deal with?



I'm doing that for the first time right now. So far, so good.


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## wildfruity (Oct 25, 2012)

Oak powder / chips - interesting, I had already wondered about simulating the oak barrelled flavour by adding oak. As a cabinetmaker who uses oak a lot of the time for furniture making, I produce oak waste from time to time in a variety of forms, sanding dust, sawdust, fine cut planer chippings and fluffy spindle moulder shavings. European, American white and a little English oak. I was thinking more along the lines though of inserting oak dowels into a demijohn or carboy weighted down with a stainless steel screw, but I can imagine a few dense oak planer chippings could be effective to add flavour.


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## pete1325 (Oct 25, 2012)

Wildfruity, I read on this forum somewhere that your not supposed to use that type of oak, not sure why.....someone else will chime in.


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## Basement_Maker (Dec 19, 2012)

So I'm all for the claimed benefits of adding oak powder during fermentation. 
But when you're racking from your primary to carboy, do you find that a lot of powder gets sucked up in your siphon?
Anyone have good advice on how to successfully get rid of the oak powder?
I've been considering putting a nylon screen over the end of my siphon cane, but concerned that it will quickly plug up and kill the siphon.


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## MrKevin (Dec 19, 2012)

Basement_Maker said:


> So I'm all for the claimed benefits of adding oak powder during fermentation.
> But when you're racking from your primary to carboy, do you find that a lot of powder gets sucked up in your siphon?
> Anyone have good advice on how to successfully get rid of the oak powder?
> I've been considering putting a nylon screen over the end of my siphon cane, but concerned that it will quickly plug up and kill the siphon.



I got two plastic cheese press parts and put them together. Now I don't use mesh bags in my primary, I just dump everything in. The cheese press screens make a football shape around the end of the siphon and protect the end from clogging. I'm out of town or I would include a picture. 

Kevin


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## tonyt (Dec 20, 2012)

yes it's kind of a pain to rack but worth it. tapping the racking cane against the side of the fermenter will help dislodge clogs.


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## Geronimo (Dec 20, 2012)

Basement_Maker said:


> I've been considering putting a nylon screen over the end of my siphon cane, but concerned that it will quickly plug up and kill the siphon.



An auto-siphon uses a plastic cap over the end that holds the racking cane off the bottom far enough to keep out a little sludge.

Another alternative is to make a "tea bag" from 2 coffee filters. The way I saw it was by putting the dust in one filter, laying the other filter on top of it, then fold the edge over and use a stapler to close it up (or stitching it if you're handy with a sewing machine). I know you can get DIY empty tea bags but I don't know if they'd hold the quantity of dust we need. It would be awesome if some company just start making oak dust tea bags.


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## joeswine (Dec 20, 2012)

*Poweder oak verses chips*

THERE'S THE DEAL ,BALANCE//////////////

HARD WOODS IN PRIMARY///////////////////

POWDER IN SECONDARY///////////////////////
THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY PROBLEM WITH RACKING,THE POWDER IS SUPERFINE AND SHOULD ALMOST IF NOT ALL DE SOLVE INTO THE WINE ,THAT'S ITS FIRST ATTRIBUTE,SECONDLY IT WILL ADD TO THE TEXTURE OR MOUTHFEEL OF THE WINE ADDING STRUCTURE NOT AS MUCH TO THE FLAVOR,BALANCING OAK IS A WELL KNOW FACT IN THE COMMERCIAL WINE INDUSTRY AND IS DONE ALL THE TIME THEY BUY IT IN 40 LB. BAGS.................ONCE AGAIN IF DONE PROPERLY IT SHOULD DISAPATE INTO THE WINE VERY LITTLE WILL BE ON THE BOTTOM.


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## Geronimo (Dec 21, 2012)

Seriously? The oak dissolves? Any time I've used oak powder it swells up and turns into a pastie slurry mixed together with the yeast. I'm just following the directions in the kit.


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## robie (Dec 21, 2012)

Geronimo said:


> Seriously? The oak dissolves? Any time I've used oak powder it swells up and turns into a pastie slurry mixed together with the yeast. I'm just following the directions in the kit.



I think that is what Joe meant; though swollen, it is so fine it becomes just another component of the stuff that settlers to the bottom. So pasty that it doesn't easily get sucked up in the racking tube; at least not anymore than the dead yeast.

Very different than oak shavings that easily stops up the racking tube.


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## joeswine (Dec 21, 2012)

*Powdered oak*

 Okay, we get some feedback. Excellent, LD Carlson wine tannin powder, balances low tannin wines and AIDS Clarification, 1/4 teaspoon per US gallon .for white and rosé wine must per US gallon . 1 tablespoon per US gallon for for wine red wines. 
 I do not know what you use before but this is a fact, using this product, place it and let it settle out or place it and stur it in it will settle out, i it will compact most of, itwill dissolve into the wine it is designed to do that. 
 Anyways, back in this thread I discussed the differences between the use of oak chips and powder and how they enhance the wine in their own medium if you combine the two and do it correctly not only will you get the Woody taste where the tannic acid backside of the wine develops combining that with the powdered side . You also get a much smoother more uniform , rounded textured wine .
N

I have a Pinot Noir started this fall from , Italy . I placed 6 tablespoons a powdered oak into it, you cannot see, it's really not on the bottom, it is within . Maybe some of it will settle out but most of it will be dissolve in the wine . That is the nature of the beast . . And if you notice in my writing I use more than call for . O
A


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## joeswine (Dec 21, 2012)

*Liquid oak*

 Okay, how many have used liquid oak? Brewers best has oak essence, which comes in a 4 ounce bottle is roughly $4.99, LD Carlson puts out liquid wine can do the same thing as the powder comes in a 4 ounce bottle for 299 I have tried these additives, have you?, there is a world producst out there for us to use you just have to be willing to experiment, trial and error . See works best for you.

Think outside the box, and the whole new world opened up to you as a winemaker .............................


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## joeswine (Feb 25, 2013)

*layering oak*

THE trick to a good balanced, red wine is to know how and at what quantities to balance the hard oak against the powered,and yes Rob's totally correct,most all wineries use powered oak in there planning,as well as hard,there is know down side in my book in using powder oak,it's another tool in your tool box to play with and help guide your wine through it's process.......think outside the box.......


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## TinyPirate (Apr 26, 2014)

Random bump after a google: Why not add your oak powder to a reusable tea bag? Google around, there are some fancy fabric ones out there with a very fine mesh on them. They'd be ideal (with a small stone to weigh them down) for oak powder in a secondary, I figure!


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## Geronimo (Apr 26, 2014)

In my experience, any powder in secondary is going to settle out completely anyway. I still much prefer staves, spirals or cubes in secondary.


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## Feth (Dec 24, 2014)

I am making a Kenridge Classic Cab Shiraz kit. I inadvertently added the year packet before adding the 3 Oak powder packets. I didnt immediately realize my mistake so the batch started yeast alone wasit for the first 24 hours. I then added the oak powder on top of the yeast. Will this kill the yeast or will it continue to work? If so could I now stir it all in and then sprinkle another yeast packet on top?


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## tonyt (Dec 24, 2014)

Feth you are fine. Merry Christmas


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## knockabout (Dec 24, 2014)

Feth said:


> I am making a Kenridge Classic Cab Shiraz kit. I inadvertently added the year packet before adding the 3 Oak powder packets. I didnt immediately realize my mistake so the batch started yeast alone wasit for the first 24 hours. I then added the oak powder on top of the yeast. Will this kill the yeast or will it continue to work? If so could I now stir it all in and then sprinkle another yeast packet on top?



Wait until fermentation is visually rolling along and stir it in - no big whoop.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 24, 2014)

Yup, this order will work just fine, as the others have said. (Yeast are pretty hardy beasties!)


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## heatherd (Dec 24, 2014)

To answer the original post, oak powder is included in a kit for a reason and should be used. I put in primary and it falls to the bottom with the lees and yeast, racking is no problem because you should be leaving all that behind.

Oak chips, I put in a mesh bag. These are a good option for adding tannins and are fairly inexpensive.

Oak cubes are also best in a mesh bag, a bit more expensive than the chips and powder.

Oak spirals are a bit more costly than the options above, but are a nice way to add oak to wine. Tie fishing line to them to aid in removal.

Beyond that is a barrel.

Bottom line is that they all have a place in the process, and I use multiple types of oak on my batches. Most often, I use a powder in primary and then age with spirals.


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## knockabout (Dec 25, 2014)

So we haven't really addressed why oak powder in primary. My understanding which others may correct or elaborate on is oak powder in primary is basically for 2 things one it adds to color stability in reds. 2 it adds to wine body structure. These powders are often referred to as sacrificial tannins....I add oak powder or tannins to all my primary fermentarions for reds. Anyone else care to elaborate or correct me? Please add....


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## Norton (Dec 26, 2014)

I am not a scientist but from what I can figure out oak powder will help to add body to wine when added during fermentation but it will not add much to the taste of the wine


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