# Cost of Grapes going up this year?



## pgentile (Jan 11, 2018)

Sounds like the cost of grapes this year could be going up. The article states that half of Napa was wiped out, I'm pretty sure I read that the damage to vineyards was much much less than that. It also indicates that lower end wines will be more affected price-wise than high end. Other articles I've read say that wine consumption is up worldwide. The two could really put a squeeze on prices.

Where do grapes fall in quality for the home wine maker? Are we ever getting grapes that are equal quality used in high end wines, even when buying premium grapes? I'm not sure about my local sources.

https://www.businesslive.co.za/fm/f...-what-it-means-for-sas-wilting-wine-industry/


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2018)

Hope it doesn’t jack up the $ too much. But dude I’m right there with ya in terms of questioning what is available to us. The jersey supplier at least has more options. 
With no actual research done (aside from looking into Pia and Regina which seem to be the low man) I’m assuming the higher the price the better the quality. 
Pintos has fall grapes ranging from $34 -$120 a lug (Wash St.) No napa stuff tho. 
I’ve also been taking a hard look at frozen must. Seems to be the best overall quality that is obtainable. 
To get actual top quality grapes tho doesn’t seem realistic. I know Some guys get em, but they are a LOT closer to Cali and are getting minimum 1 ton with multiple people in on it. And also paying $5-$6K instead of $1,200.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 11, 2018)

I've been hearing this in one form or another since I started making wine from grapes a few years back (I'm sure it goes back further). Every year, there is something that happens and some grab hold of it to create a panic about shortfalls and price jumps. Every year, my grape prices go up very modestly, if at all. Be it fire, drought, earthquakes, growers converting to other crops - every year, its something that writers claim will cause a worldwide catastrophe in grape markets. Every year, it doesn't really seem to happen. While the damage to PARTS of Napa and Sonoma may have been extensive, overall, I think they are OK. And the world outside of Napa and Sonoma will likely not feel any impact whatsoever.


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## Masbustelo (Jan 11, 2018)

I read somewhere that there is a constant oversupply of grapes in Europe. That some where about half the crop either ends up in low priced vinegar or dumped down the drain. I also read that there is pressure on the producers to take acreage out of production because of the yearly surplus.


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## JohnT (Jan 11, 2018)

Wine consumption may be up world wide, but so is grape production. 

As far as price VS quality, all I can say is that there is a TREND that better quality grapes cost more. There have been times that inexpensive grapes impressed me with quality and there were times when paying extra for premium grapes seemed like a waste of money. 

Still, think of it this way, a $45 lug of grapes will produce a $4.50 bottle of wine. It is still a bargain!


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## cmason1957 (Jan 11, 2018)

I wish in the St. Louis, MO area I could get a lug of grapes for that price. I am looking at the price sheet for last season: Lanza/Suisun grapes were $80-100, Lodi grapes were $58-75. Juice buckets were almost as expensive 6 gallon buckets from California were $70-85 and Italian Juice was $90. I don't make any at that price.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 11, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I wish in the St. Louis, MO area I could get a lug of grapes for that price. I am looking at the price sheet for last season: Lanza/Suisun grapes were $80-100, Lodi grapes were $58-75. Juice buckets were almost as expensive 6 gallon buckets from California were $70-85 and Italian Juice was $90. I don't make any at that price.



Wow. My Lanza grapes go for $55-65 or so.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 11, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Wow. My Lanza grapes go for $55-65 or so.


I know. I wish I had relatives on the East Coast to justify a trip out there. I do have a bonus son and now two grandsons in the Dallas area, so I may see about taking grandma down there this year. Finevinewines is not terribly far from them, but how to time it just right??


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## ceeaton (Jan 11, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I know. I wish I had relatives on the East Coast to justify a trip out there.


There are plenty of us around here who would adopt you into our family. I'd just have to explain how my "long lost brother" from the midwest ended up with the same first name!


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## Ajmassa (Jan 11, 2018)

Sounds like a ‘mobster strongarm’ type markup relegated to St Louis to me. Half the distance. Double the cost??
There’s some shiesty old school grape distributors out there with some very greasy palms


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## cmason1957 (Jan 11, 2018)

Well the only place we can get them (at least that I know about) is through a LHBS that gets them trucked in and charges a premium.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 11, 2018)

ceeaton said:


> There are plenty of us around here who would adopt you into our family. I'd just have to explain how my "long lost brother" from the midwest ended up with the same first name!



I would love the idea of heading out East to meet a few folks, drink some wine, pick up grapes. But I do think I'll lose that battle, if SWMBO knows that we could go to Texas for grapes and grandbabies time.


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## pgentile (Jan 11, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’ve also been taking a hard look at frozen must. Seems to be the best overall quality that is obtainable. .



I've been doing the same thing. If the quality and end product are good, I'm probably to give it a try. $300-400 for 5-6 gallons of finished wine though makes me hesitate a bit.


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## pgentile (Jan 11, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> I've been hearing this in one form or another since I started making wine from grapes a few years back (I'm sure it goes back further). Every year, there is something that happens and some grab hold of it to create a panic about shortfalls and price jumps. Every year, my grape prices go up very modestly, if at all. Be it fire, drought, earthquakes, growers converting to other crops - every year, its something that writers claim will cause a worldwide catastrophe in grape markets. Every year, it doesn't really seem to happen. While the damage to PARTS of Napa and Sonoma may have been extensive, overall, I think they are OK. And the world outside of Napa and Sonoma will likely not feel any impact whatsoever.



Yeah I've noticed the articles each year the past several years as well since I've been making wine, just seems to be a little more stress on vineyards this year in many different regions. Starting to think it's getting close to the time to sell everything and move to Canada and establish a vineyard as global warming continues. In another 10-20 years could be producing some nice Canadian temperate climate wines.


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## wxtrendsguy (Jan 12, 2018)

A whole bunch of hooey. Production problems last year due to frosts in Europe and let say smoke damage in parts of CA , OR and WA will have been reflected in prices paid last year. Unless you are buying premium and I mean really premium grapes its likely they are originating in the central valley of CA, Good to high quality Pac NW grapes are in the $2000 a ton range and similar to prices for reds here in the East. Whites are usually less. Central Valley of CA and prices at the vineyard are half that. Wholesale a lug is about $10-$20 paid to the grower and you are not getting his best which is reserved for himself or select clients. Another $10+ for shipping and a buck or two for packaging then double or more the total for retail sale to the consumer. So $50 for Lodi to $75+ is pretty much on par. Want to get cheaper get a whole bunch of you together and do a group buy of 1 or 2 tons...total costs per ton shipped from west coast to East coast will be around $2500 for pretty good WA state and Suisan Valley stuff and less then $2500 from Lodi.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 12, 2018)

There is a distributer in PA that sells select Wash St and Lake County grapes by the 1/4 and 1/2 ton bins. Ranging from $1.33lb to $2.00lb. —so right on par with what you just said. ~$2,600-~$4,000 a ton. —saving about $0.25 /lb. compared to lugs.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 12, 2018)

Our local winemaking club paid $2,800/ton (delivered to Wisconsin) for Horse Heaven Hills Syrah this year. This was for a 3-ton order, I believe.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 12, 2018)

Where do grapes fall in quality for the home wine maker? Are we ever getting grapes that are equal quality used in high end wines, even when buying premium grapes? I'm not sure about my local sources.

I've always wondered the same thing and probably posted the question on other threads. When we buy grapes or juice we are at least fourth party. I don't think our local sources would intentionally sell inferior products but they probably don't know exactly know what they are getting either. That is why I am trying to develope relationships with local quality vineyards. I figure they are harvesting their grapes for their best possible wines.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 12, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Our local winemaking club paid $2,800/ton (delivered to Wisconsin) for Horse Heaven Hills Syrah this year. This was for a 3-ton order, I believe.



I was lucky enough to get local crushed destemmed Norton grapes for $1.50/lb this past fall. Ended up with 176 lbs and the wine is going to be great.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 12, 2018)

Am I crazy for having absolutely zero interest in local grapes? Norton and Frontenac just doesn’t sound as sexy as Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Petite Syrah or Zinfandel. 
I’ve never had wine from those grapes and always kinda dismiss them when discussed. Are they sold in standard liquor stores/state stores?


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 12, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> I was lucky enough to get local crushed destemmed Norton grapes for $1.50/lb this past fall. Ended up with 176 lbs and the wine is going to be great.



Let's get some Petite Manseng this year.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 12, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Am I crazy for having absolutely zero interest in local grapes? Norton and Frontenac just doesn’t sound as sexy as Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Petite Syrah or Zinfandel.
> I’ve never had wine from those grapes and always kinda dismiss them when discussed. Are they sold in standard liquor stores/state stores?



Does Cynthiana sound sexier, another name for Norton.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 12, 2018)

Boatboy24 said:


> Let's get some Petite Manseng this year.



Working on it as well as Tannat and PV. My first wine class is tomorrow so I'll really get to know the winemaker.


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## Boatboy24 (Jan 12, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Working on it as well as Tannat and PV. My first wine class is tomorrow so I'll really get to know the winemaker.



That should be a lot of fun.


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## balatonwine (Jan 13, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> I read somewhere that there is a constant oversupply of grapes in Europe. That some where about half the crop either ends up in low priced vinegar or dumped down the drain. I also read that there is pressure on the producers to take acreage out of production because of the yearly surplus.



Living in Europe I can confirm that grapes from the field prices are often very low for most growers.

And a lot of land has been removed from grape production. But, it is also important to know that the EU pays land owners to *both* remove grapes *and* plant grapes. So land taken out of grape production may not remain that way for very long. In effect, the EU grant/subsidy system often works against itself.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 13, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Am I crazy for having absolutely zero interest in local grapes? Norton and Frontenac just doesn’t sound as sexy as Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Petite Syrah or Zinfandel.
> I’ve never had wine from those grapes and always kinda dismiss them when discussed. Are they sold in standard liquor stores/state stores?



I may be a snob, but I feel the same way.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 13, 2018)

jgmann67 said:


> I may be a snob, but I feel the same way.



OK you snobbies, where is your sense of adventure. You can go to just about any thread and come to the conclusion this hobby is all about adventure and trying new things. I think that is why it is so addicting, we get to be creative.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 13, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> OK you snobbies, where is your sense of adventure. You can go to just about any thread and come to the conclusion this hobby is all about adventure and trying new things. I think that is why it is so addicting, we get to be creative.



It's just below my wallet. [emoji12]

I've tried (and made) a lot of new wines over the last few years thanks to this hobby. But, if I have a fixed, small budget, and my choices are a.) craft a wine I believe I'll like and venturing out; and b.) making wines I wouldn't buy commercially (and have no idea whether I I'll be happy with it), I'm going with the former every time.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 13, 2018)

jgmann67 said:


> It's just below my wallet. [emoji12]
> 
> I've tried (and made) a lot of new wines over the last few years thanks to this hobby. But, if I have a fixed, small budget, and my choices are a.) craft a wine I believe I'll like and venturing out; and b.) making wines I wouldn't buy commercially (and have no idea whether I I'll be happy with it), I'm going with the former every time.



Good point, for me my limited exposure to wine forces me to take some risk. Fortunatley, to date, I've never had a red I disliked enough to black ball it so I feel I'm pretty safe there.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 13, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Am I crazy for having absolutely zero interest in local grapes? Norton and Frontenac just doesn’t sound as sexy as Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Petite Syrah or Zinfandel.
> I’ve never had wine from those grapes and always kinda dismiss them when discussed. Are they sold in standard liquor stores/state stores?


I can't speak for Frontenac, but around Missouri and Illinois Norton can be found all around. Much life most grapes, there are good and bad examples. You should certainly try one sometime. Chambourcin is another very tasty wine. I make wine from both of these grapes, partially for cost reasons. I can get those grapes at $0.75-1.00 / lb crushed and destemmed. Partially, cause they make very good wine.

One I really would love to get my hands on is called Crimson Cabernet, cross between Norton and Cabernet Sauvignon. It hasn't been released for long, so not many growers, but it will be great once there are more.


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## ceeaton (Jan 13, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Am I crazy for having absolutely zero interest in local grapes? Norton and Frontenac just doesn’t sound as sexy as Cabernet Sauvignon, Sangiovese, Petite Syrah or Zinfandel.
> I’ve never had wine from those grapes and always kinda dismiss them when discussed. Are they sold in standard liquor stores/state stores?


I know a place East of Harrisburg that is growing some Sangiovese (don't know the price for grapes) and a place near Carlisle that grows Chardonnay. Plus Harford where we get the grapes and juices offers local MD Merlot in the fall. I imagine somewhere a winery up in the Lehigh Valley has to sell some Cabernet Sauvignon, they sell enough of those wines, I guess there are a few valleys that have a micro climate that stays warm enough in the winter that they can survive, much like the Finger Lakes in NY and the few mile wide strip up along Lake Erie.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 13, 2018)

Cynthiana and chamoricin are local wines I have had. Yet they don’t peak my interest in making my it. I do enjoy being adventurous in bottles I purchase tho. 
As Jgmann67 pointed out, our $$, equipment, space, and time limits us to how many batches we can make in sept/oct. So with just a couple batches personally I prefer to go with the heavyweights. No offense to local grapes tho- they should understand. 
So excluding local grapes (just for making  ) and buying macro bins amongst a group (<—not off the table-we’ll talk about this later ) what do you think is going to be the best quality grapes we are able to get our hands on for the value? Note- likely will not be getting the $120 lugs of cab!
I condensed last year’s menu into 1 file for easy reading. This is probably the most extensive set of options around and I know very close to other large distributors.


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## jgmann67 (Jan 13, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Cynthiana and chamoricin are local wines I have had. Yet they don’t peak my interest in making my it. I do enjoy being adventurous in bottles I purchase tho.
> As Jgmann67 pointed out, our $$, equipment, space, and time limits us to how many batches we can make in sept/oct. So with just a couple batches personally I prefer to go with the heavyweights. No offense to local grapes tho- they should understand.
> So excluding local grapes (just for making  ) and buying macro bins amongst a group (<—not off the table-we’ll talk about this later ) what do you think is going to be the best quality grapes we are able to get our hands on for the value? Note- likely will not be getting the $120 lugs of cab!
> I condensed last year’s menu into 1 file for easy reading. This is probably the most extensive set of options around and I know very close to other large distributors.
> ...



Macrobin you say???


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## Ajmassa (Jan 13, 2018)

jgmann67 said:


> Macrobin you say???




Split with enough people would financially make sense. But then we’d all be making 100’s of lbs of the same varietal. I don’t mind that tho.
Enough people live fairly close to each other. Who knows, maybe this is the beginning of the first conversation that eventually becomes a winemaking club that purchases 1 ton every year! 
Probably our best shot at getting quality stuff for good price. I’m good for 300-500 lbs


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## jgmann67 (Jan 13, 2018)

If my math on pricing is right, me too.


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## wxtrendsguy (Jan 13, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> Where do grapes fall in quality for the home wine maker? Are we ever getting grapes that are equal quality used in high end wines, even when buying premium grapes? I'm not sure about my local sources..



Ok here is the skinny, there are 3 types of grape growers out there. One is the winery/vineyard owner who keeps pretty much everything he/she grows unless the harvest comes in bigger than expected. These grapes are the premium stuff where the crop has been limited purposefully to generate the highest quality. The second grower is one who basically gets paid premium prices because he/she pretty much follows what the winery dictates. These two growers profit motive is to produce a limited quantity of high priced grapes. Grower number 3 makes his/her profit growing as many tons/acre as the vines will carry, the number one way to produce mediocre grapes is to overcrop them.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 14, 2018)

wxtrendsguy said:


> Ok here is the skinny, there are 3 types of grape growers out there. One is the winery/vineyard owner who keeps pretty much everything he/she grows unless the harvest comes in bigger than expected. These grapes are the premium stuff where the crop has been limited purposefully to generate the highest quality. The second grower is one who basically gets paid premium prices because he/she pretty much follows what the winery dictates. These two growers profit motive is to produce a limited quantity of high priced grapes. Grower number 3 makes his/her profit growing as many tons/acre as the vines will carry, the number one way to produce mediocre grapes is to overcrop them.



Here here, although there will be exceptions, this is my point exactly. I would also imagine there are the #3 growers that take more pride in their fruit then others but how do we know which ones we are getting it from. The terroir vastly dictates the quality of the fruit but conditions do change season to season even though some are more consistent then others. I believe it is misnomer to say perhaps 2017 was a good or bad year. It could have been that in France but quite the opposite in Cali or other regions. The same might be true to the varietal. The conditions required for one fruit might not be the same as another in the same region. When we buy grapes we might be provided with the brix and or ph but there are other factors that dictate what a quality grape is which we just don't know. So my question remains how do we know we are getting quality grapes. Which brings me back to @wxtrendsguy's #1 and #2 growers. If you are able to get grapes from a quality local vineyard I believe you chances of getting quality grapes is very high.


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## NorCal (Jan 14, 2018)

I’m in the Sierra Foothills, about an hour from Napa. I also sell grapes for our community (50-60 tons total). So know some about the going rate. The cost of grapes from the Napa AVA is crazy. Typical price for high end fruit is $6,000 per ton. That will conservatively make 2 barrels or 600 bottles, so it’s $10 per bottle in fruit. A lot for the Home winemaker, not as huge if you are selling your wine for over $100. I doubt this fruit is finding its way to home winemakers.

The cost of grapes in my AVA averages around $1,600 per ton and it will probably go up $100 per ton this year. The most I ever paid was last year, $2,000 per ton for Cab Sauv, an hour south of me out of Amador. What is driving up our cost is the shortage and cost of labor. The minimum wage in CA went to $11/hr and is going up $1/hr every year for the next 4 years. That will be directly reflected in the cost of grapes.


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## balatonwine (Jan 15, 2018)

NorCal said:


> The cost of grapes from the Napa AVA is crazy. Typical price for high end fruit is $6,000 per ton.



Meanwhile, a bottle of Romanée-Conti can go for $9,000 a *bottle*.

Personally, I expect a good $15-$20 bottle of Sierra Nevada red would probably be pretty nearly as good.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 15, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Meanwhile, a bottle of Romanée-Conti can go for $9,000 a *bottle*.



In a thought experiment, I'd love to know how I would describe a quaff of that in a blind tasting. I would probably write something like: "Very pleasant. Nice minerality, with some fruit, too. Great finish, with a decent amount of astringency and mouthfeel. 8/10."


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## stickman (Jan 15, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> In a thought experiment, I'd love to know how I would describe a quaff of that in a blind tasting. I would probably write something like: "Very pleasant. Nice minerality, with some fruit, too. Great finish, with a decent amount of astringency and mouthfeel. 8/10."



That's funny, someone else described it as, "To drink Romanée-Conti is equivalent to experiencing an orgasm at once in the mouth and in the nose." Not sure that qualifies for $9,000 a bottle, but it's worth something if it delivers something like that.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 15, 2018)

Yeah, it was that description (I read the Wiki page, too) that made me do my thought experiment. I don't think he would have "blown his wad" if it were a blind tasting!


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## jgmann67 (Jan 15, 2018)

That kind of action usually costs a little extra, Monsignor.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 15, 2018)

Hey Paul, were the Wash St. grapes you got this past fall purchased through an inside connection? I know it was done with a larger group of guys, but were those grapes otherwise unavailable to you? And Was it 1 ton?
Wondering if something similar is even a realistic option to get to the east coast.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 15, 2018)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Hey Paul, were the Wash St. grapes you got this past fall purchased through an inside connection? I know it was done with a larger group of guys, but were those grapes otherwise unavailable to you? And Was it 1 ton?
> Wondering if something similar is even a realistic option to get to the east coast.



This was a group buy through the Wisconsin Vintner's Association. (http://www.wihomewinemakers.com). We got about 3 tons, I think. 

I am new to this group. For many years, evidently, we purchased from one of your stalwarts, Gino Pinto. For several reasons, the group decided to make a change a few years ago to use Collinwood, in Cleveland, OH. (https://www.collinwoodgrape.com). More by PM.


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## balatonwine (Jan 17, 2018)

stickman said:


> "To drink Romanée-Conti is equivalent to experiencing an orgasm at once in the mouth and in the nose."



I personally tend to ignore such over the top "reviews". Consider them mostly one pretentious person simply trying to impress other pretentious persons. 

That being said, even if I do think such prices are really, really silly for a beverage, if there is a market for $9,000 bottles of wine, that if fine with me. Believe in the free market and enterprise: whatever it may bear.


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## stickman (Jan 17, 2018)

@balatonwine I thought the description was funny, I busted out laughing. I agree, if people are willing to pay, that's the market. Small amounts of very high quality grapes are available, but as @NorCal indicated, the home winemaker is competing with the winery for purchase. A good example is Caldwell grapes from Brehm, very expensive grapes that can be converted to high end wines if you know what you're doing, just don't make any mistakes, if the wine doesn't turn out, there's nobody else to blame.
https://www.caldwellvineyard.com/Wine


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## ibglowin (Jan 17, 2018)

Oh my they are following the "How to increase sales and drive customers to your winery" seminar that you will find at any grape growers/winemakers conference aren't they! Lots of "proprietary" TOP SECRET blends, make your customers fall in love with your winery with an intriguing backstory including romance and in this case the secret "smuggling" of illegal grape vines into the region........ 



stickman said:


> A good example is Caldwell grapes from Brehm, very expensive grapes that can be converted to high end wines if you know what you're doing, just don't make any mistakes, if the wine doesn't turn out, there's nobody else to blame.
> https://www.caldwellvineyard.com/Wine


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## montanaWineGuy (Jan 17, 2018)

Glad I make my own wines and all of it is from fruit picked in the wild.


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