# Where to buy Oak Barrels?



## Mbogan (Oct 26, 2017)

Hi all, 

I live in Northern NJ. I’m looking to purchase a couple new American or French Oak barrels (30 gallon/15 gallon). In the past I have purchased locally at Wine/Beer market, but feel the prices a bit inflated. This is only for Red Wine.

I have had success with Barrel Works, which went out of business. Any suggestions on quality Barrel Cooperages? I have seen them on Midwest Supplies and received a response from TheOAK Cooperage. 

Shipping is a must unless there is another reputable dealer in my area that has better selection.

Thanks
MB


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2017)

Vadai is my preferred source.


----------



## rustbucket (Oct 26, 2017)

Jim,

Vadai looks like a good barrel source. The site is worth going to: www.vadaiwinebarrels.com. Included on the site is information about wood barrel preparation. I didn't know that a preparation procedure was necessary to seal the barrel. My assumption was that new barrels only had to be sterilized before use. 

Thanks for mentioning this source.


----------



## GreginND (Oct 26, 2017)

rustbucket said:


> I didn't know that a preparation procedure was necessary to seal the barrel. My assumption was that new barrels only had to be sterilized before use.
> 
> Thanks for mentioning this source.



Yes, barrels are made of wood that shrinks and swells based on the hydration level. A new barrel has likely been sitting for some time without liquid in it and the staves may have shrunk and will leak. You need to fill/soak new barrels to expand the wood and seal any leaks before putting your wine in it.


----------



## Mbogan (Oct 26, 2017)

Boatboy24 said:


> Vadai is my preferred source.





Thanks for reply. I have looked briefly at Vadai, as it’s been mentioned here several times. 

Have you used other sources to compare against? What do you normally age in it and what size? As Hungarian oak, do you feel it imparts American oak or French Oak characteristic?

Thx


----------



## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2017)

Mbogan said:


> Thanks for reply. I have looked briefly at Vadai, as it’s been mentioned here several times.
> 
> Have you used other sources to compare against? What do you normally age in it and what size? As Hungarian oak, do you feel it imparts American oak or French Oak characteristic?
> 
> Thx



I like the Hungarian profile. My preference is for Med French, but I'm not springing for a French barrel. I have 3, 23 liter barrels from Vadai. All my red wines spend at least some time in there - most go 3-6 months. Kits 3-4 months, grape wines anywhere from 3-6.


----------



## mainshipfred (Oct 29, 2017)

Has anyone heard of these folks.
https://carolinabarrels.com/new-barrels-for-sale/


----------



## ibglowin (Oct 29, 2017)

At 30-40% cheaper than a comparably sized Vadai barrel I don't see how they could be built with the same quality and materials (including thickness) as a Vadai. Why don't you snag one for the team and report back!



mainshipfred said:


> Has anyone heard of these folks.
> https://carolinabarrels.com/new-barrels-for-sale/


----------



## mainshipfred (Oct 29, 2017)

How about I make a call to them for the team and report back.


----------



## Johnd (Oct 29, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> How about I make a call to them for the team and report back.



If you can, find out exactly where the oak comes from, how long the wood is seasoned before machining, the thickness of the barrel heads and staves, and hoop construction. Those are the things I’ve seen the majority of pricing difference result from.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 4, 2017)

Here is the reply I received fom Carolina Barrels

Hi Fred,

Our small new barrels are made from hungarian oak. The staves are about 3/4" thick and so are the barrel heads.
Our 30 gallon barrels are made from american oak. The barrel staves are about 1"-1.25" thick as well as the barrel heads. Alot depends on whether yuou order charred or toasted. Charring can burn away up to 20% of the stave thickness depending on the level of char you order. These are made to order so please allow up to 3-4 weeks before they are shipped to you.
We do also have new hungarian oak barrels but they only go up to 26.4 gallons.
We don't offer a 6 gallon barrel.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 4, 2017)

There’s your answer, their small barrels only utilize 3/4” staves and heads, as opposed to 1-1/8” - 1-1/4”. No big deal, but they’ll allow a little more evaporation / oxidation, so watch your time in barrel.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 4, 2017)

Johnd said:


> There’s your answer, their small barrels only utilize 3/4” staves and heads, as opposed to 1-1/8” - 1-1/4”. No big deal, but they’ll allow a little more evaporation / oxidation, so watch your time in barrel.



John, the 6.6 gallon Zemplen Barrel if have has 3/4" staves, at least a the bung. I have no way of measuring the head. I wish someone could measure the stave of a similar sized Vadia barrel since this seems to be the most commonly accepted small barrel. I am pleasantly surprised with the evaporation rate of mine. I only seem to lose a few ounces, maybe 7-8, a week.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 4, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> John, the 6.6 gallon Zemplen Barrel if have has 3/4" staves, at least a the bung. I have no way of measuring the head. I wish someone could measure the stave of a similar sized Vadia barrel since this seems to be the most commonly accepted small barrel. I am pleasantly surprised with the evaporation rate of mine. I only seem to lose a few ounces, maybe 7-8, a week.



The staves on my Vadai 23 L barrels are are just larger than 1”, 1-1/8” or so at the head, 7/8” at the bung. I’m not a barrel expert by any means, I recall reading that slight tapering of the staves towards the middle aids in the bending process, hence, a bit thinner at the bung. Starting with a 3/4” stave would yield a slightly thinner profile at the bung if their staves are similarly tapered. 
Fred, I’m not trying to talk you out of the Carolina barrel, just to analyze the pricing structure and figure out why it’s less costly than the Vadai. Try one out and see how it works, might be awesome!!


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 6, 2017)

Well I went ahead a bit the bullet. Ordered an 8 gallon form Carolina Barrel. Will let you know "if it holds water".


----------



## Mbogan (Nov 7, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> Well I went ahead a bit the bullet. Ordered an 8 gallon form Carolina Barrel. Will let you know "if it holds water".



Good luck!! Just curious, what did they charge for shipping (to what state)? That seems to be the biggest factor. I found some great barrels on west coast but the shipping kills it.


----------



## Alan tate (Nov 7, 2017)

The first thing anyone should take into account is shipping costs thats anything.including ingredients, anything made of glass is almost doubled in price, obviously very heavy.bye locally whenever possible.


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 7, 2017)

Mbogan said:


> Good luck!! Just curious, what did they charge for shipping (to what state)? That seems to be the biggest factor. I found some great barrels on west coast but the shipping kills it.



I looked em up last night, After mulling over which sized barrel would be most ideal for myself eventually. (Ongoing debate I have with myself)

They charged a flat rate of $50. But only deliver to within 200 miles of their location.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 7, 2017)

Mbogan said:


> Good luck!! Just curious, what did they charge for shipping (to what state)? That seems to be the biggest factor. I found some great barrels on west coast but the shipping kills it.



I live in Northern Virginia and the shipping is $20.00. Total with shipping for the 8 gallon $145.00.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 7, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I looked em up last night, After mulling over which sized barrel would be most ideal for myself eventually. (Ongoing debate I have with myself)
> They charged a flat rate of $50. But only deliver to within 200 miles of their location.



My first was a 6.6 that works well but when I buy a bucket and one or 2 lugs depending on the season I've been ending up with more then 8 gallons. That is why I went for the 8.


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 7, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> My first was a 6.6 that works well but when I buy a bucket and one or 2 lugs depending on the season I've been ending up with more then 8 gallons. That is why I went for the 8.



Sounds like the 8 will work well for you then. It's so difficult for me to know how big to go without a set routine of how much I make. I've been eying the Vadai for a while. 
Im gonna want 2 barrels tho. And Im not partial to any type. A smaller 5-6gal and a 10-15gal since I started using our old 54L demijohns. So that 13.3 gal would be ideal for transferring. The more I look into barrels the more excited I get. 
This Carolina joint seems promising. I did notice they listed the stave thickness on the site (not your email) as 10-18mm. Which I would assume is a taper deal. 10mm is about 3/8" at he bung. You're a builder so you know how a sheet of 3/8" plywood feels when handling. But I look forward to hearing your review, and really hope you've found a winner.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 7, 2017)

I'm anxious to see what it is all about as well. I do see the stave thickness that I couldn't find before. I really find it hard to believe though that the minimum stave thickness is 10mm even though that is what is says. The 10mm aside, one comment on the thread I can't totally agree with is the cost associated with the barrel relative to the thickness of the staves. The cost of the raw material has to be small compared to the cost of milling and labor to build. Hopefully, since we are in the same business you can understand my thoughts.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 7, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> one comment on the thread I can't totally agree with is the cost associated with the barrel relative to the thickness of the staves. The cost of the raw material has to be small compared to the cost of milling and labor to build. Hopefully, since we are in the same business you can understand my thoughts.



I doubt that the difference in price is solely from raw material costs, but a combination of costs resulting from the difference. Starting off with a piece of 1-1/8" material versus a piece of 3/4" material is significant, there is 50% more thickness in the 1-1/8" piece than the 3/4" piece. Theoretically, 50% more barrels could be produced from the same amount of raw materials.

Machining doesn't seem like it would be a big variable. I suspect that the thinner staves bend easier, requiring less steaming time, and therefore less labor and overall time to construct. Shouldn't be a big difference in toasting either barrels, but shipping costs could be less due to weight as well. Just some food for thought..........


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 7, 2017)

JohnD, all your points are well taken and I agree. Just due to my nature and interests I like to evalute costs. While I was researching stave costs I ran across other cooperage articles involving grain. It appears the best barrels are those of a combination of tight and loose grain (separate topic altogether) which I found interesting. There was also an article on the use of thinner staves which evidently had benefits but I can't find where I saw it. Again, all your points are well taken it just my nature to know why things are what they are.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 7, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> JohnD, all your points are well taken and I agree. Just due to my nature and interests I like to evalute costs. While I was researching stave costs I ran across other cooperage articles involving grain. It appears the best barrels are those of a combination of tight and loose grain (separate topic altogether) which I found interesting. There was also an article on the use of thinner staves which evidently had benefits but I can't find where I saw it. Again, all your points are well taken it just my nature to know why things are what they are.



No worries. I like to know what I’m getting for a buck too!!!


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 7, 2017)

noticed after I wrote that this is kinda repetitive.*
But I bet they are just covering their ass with the 10mm. 3/8"-3/4". almost 50% difference! 3/8" has to be heaviest char but Light toast may be at least 1/2"+
I wouldn't mind this for a <10gal. Not too heavy. Grain, surface area, and Time until neutral all would be same as a thicker barrel. At least I think. So, less money for less durability? I can handle that. (Tho I plan for a larger barrel too so I may be biased)
But the low price? I do agree that labor is ALWAYS more expensive than material, but wouldn't 2 identical barrels at 1.25" and 3/4", be similar labor? But 3/4" boards vs 1.25" boards can be double $. Tack on the extra weight affecting s&h and I Believe there's the price difference. 
It sounds like your saying material $ may not be the cause and the total cost is mostly from labor. If so, then are your saying these barrels are less $ from less labor. I.e. Shortcuts? I'm probably reading that wrong and unnecessarily going down that wormhole. 
So More importantly, when do you receive it and when will it be filled?!


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 8, 2017)

I agree the botttom line is does is as I said hold water. They sold out of 8's and their next load is coming in 2 weeks. I would like my MLF to complete before I put it in the barrel. I have 3 wines in the 8 gallon plus range, Syrah, Zin and Norton that I will interchange in the barrel. The first to complete or come close to completing MLF will go in. That is unless I am impatient and just fill it when I get it. If it doesn't work it will be an expensive lamp stand, but, from another thread it won't glow in the dark. I also have a 6.6 gal I'm trying to figure out what to fill with.


----------



## Johnd (Nov 8, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> I agree the botttom line is does is as I said hold water. They sold out of 8's and their next load is coming in 2 weeks. I would like my MLF to complete before I put it in the barrel. I have 3 wines in the 8 gallon plus range, Syrah, Zin and Norton that I will interchange in the barrel. The first to complete or come close to completing MLF will go in. That is unless I am impatient and just fill it when I get it. If it doesn't work it will be an expensive lamp stand, but, from another thread it won't glow in the dark. I also have a 6.6 gal I'm trying to figure out what to fill with.



You can put wine in there that is undergoing MLF, it’s done all the time! Once you put and MLF’d wine in there, no more kits should go in.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 8, 2017)

Yes, I knew you could. I just wanted to leave a bit of lees in the wine for MLF nutrients. Thought after MLF I would rack it to make cleaning the barrel easier. BTW, on another note, I emailed Mosti and asked about MLFing their juice kits. The response was they don't use sorbates and MLF was possible. They warned of SO2 levels since the ph would be raised and the potential of H2S. I'm going to try MLF on an Amorone from them but just one gallon and see what happens.


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 8, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> If it doesn't work it will be an expensive lamp stand, but, from another thread it won't glow in the dark. I also have a 6.6 gal I'm trying to figure out what to fill with.



Ah yes. The infamous Chernobyl forest barrels. Lol
I think it's a safe bet that this barrel will 'work'. 
Congrats on the purchase. I'm happy for ya. I plan to have my 1st for spring grapes. Still figuring out my local options compared to online w/shipping. And any time you share one of these links for different barrel distributors I'm on it. Unfortunately I saw Carolina only delivers to within 200 miles.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 8, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> noticed after I wrote that this is kinda repetitive.*
> But I bet they are just covering their ass with the 10mm. 3/8"-3/4". almost 50% difference! 3/8" has to be heaviest char but Light toast may be at least 1/2"+
> I wouldn't mind this for a <10gal. Not too heavy. Grain, surface area, and Time until neutral all would be same as a thicker barrel. At least I think. So, less money for less durability? I can handle that. (Tho I plan for a larger barrel too so I may be biased)
> But the low price? I do agree that labor is ALWAYS more expensive than material, but wouldn't 2 identical barrels at 1.25" and 3/4", be similar labor? But 3/4" boards vs 1.25" boards can be double $. Tack on the extra weight affecting s&h and I Believe there's the price difference.
> ...



I probably didn't explain my self properly. Not knowing the cost breakdown for labor and material my thought process was and just an example, if the material cost was 20% and labor 80% doubling the material would make it 40/60. Now if the material cost was 40% and you doubled it that would be an entirely different story as the labor wouldn't be as much of a factor. But as John said bending the thinner staves would be easier as well and save on labor.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 8, 2017)

I don't believe the 200 miles is correct on their website. I believe they ship anywhere and he said they get good rates fron UPS.


----------



## Ajmassa (Nov 8, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> I don't believe the 200 miles is correct on their website. I believe they ship anywhere and he said they get good rates fron UPS.



Great. thanks! Maybe that was just for the $50 flat rate delivery then.


----------



## SouthernChemist (Nov 12, 2017)

I saw in the description that these barrels have no bung hole, but they will drill one for one you upon request. What is the typical bung hole size for a barrel?


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 12, 2017)

SouthernChemist said:


> I saw in the description that these barrels have no bung hole, but they will drill one for one you upon request. What is the typical bung hole size for a barrel?



I asked for a 1 3/4" just because I have a bung to fit.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 17, 2017)

Received my Carolina barrel today, The staves are a full 1" thick at the bung. Only has 2 hoops on each side though and I haven't checked for leaks yet. Looks great though and it comes with a stand and spigot.


----------



## ibglowin (Nov 17, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> Received my Carolina barrel today, The staves are a full 1" thick at the bung. Only has 2 hoops on each side though and I haven't checked for leaks yet. Looks great though and it comes with a stand and spigot.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 18, 2017)

Here you go. Will prep today, fingers crossed it holds water. With regard to cost, what I noticed is it's not as curved as my other barrel and only has 2 hoops on each side. It's still oak and still a barrel but maybe without the extra hoop and curvature the cost of making the barrel is reduced. Perhaps the third hoop is whats necessary for the additional curvature. With all that said I think it will still perforn the functions of a barrel.


----------



## stickman (Nov 18, 2017)

There is a knot in one of the staves which wouldn't be there if they were holding to the heartwood standard. That being said, as long as it holds wine and performs as you expect, you're good to go.


----------



## SouthernChemist (Nov 18, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> Received my Carolina barrel today, The staves are a full 1" thick at the bung. Only has 2 hoops on each side though and I haven't checked for leaks yet. Looks great though and it comes with a stand and spigot.



Nice that it came with a stand! Ultimately, it seems like as long as it holds wine, it would be a decent enough value.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 18, 2017)

Report on the barrel. I had a few leaks when I started soaking the barrel but everything stopped in about an hour maybe 2 now it's bone dry. My only question is when I first started and it was leaking the water coming out was black. Wonder if I got a medium char instead of a mediun toast. It's real oaky smellingas well. Any thoughts?


----------



## Johnd (Nov 18, 2017)

mainshipfred said:


> Report on the barrel. I had a few leaks when I started soaking the barrel but everything stopped in about an hour maybe 2 now it's bone dry. My only question is when I first started and it was leaking the water coming out was black. Wonder if I got a medium char instead of a mediun toast. It's real oaky smellingas well. Any thoughts?



That’s why you rinse it out, to get the manufacturing / charring leftovers out of there. Don’t know what to tell you about the toast level.


----------



## stickman (Nov 18, 2017)

You should be able to see inside the barrel with a flashlight; medium toast should be somewhere between light and dark brown, a few darker areas are ok, but a char barrel should be mostly black.


----------



## mainshipfred (Nov 22, 2017)

It's definately charred. They are sending me another no questions asked. Might not be the best quality barrel but a reputable company it seems.


----------



## nynethead (Feb 21, 2018)

Mbogan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I live in Northern NJ. I’m looking to purchase a couple new American or French Oak barrels (30 gallon/15 gallon). In the past I have purchased locally at Wine/Beer market, but feel the prices a bit inflated. This is only for Red Wine.
> 
> ...




Haven't been on in a while so i just saw your question. I buy 25 gallon american barrels directly from Kelvin. purchased one each of the past 2 years to replace my 15 gallon older barrels. they are $275 + $50 shipping.


----------

