# Banana Bochet Port



## Deezil

Figured i might as well post this, since i've been kicking it around in my head pretty solid since the lightbulb flickered on.. I found a "commercial version" of *kinda* what im aiming for (minus the bourbon barrel)... 

What im thinking so far:

5 Gallons Banana Melomel/Port

100lbs bananas
9-12lbs honey
5 gallons water
1/2 gallon brandy

Go-Ferm & Fermaid-O
Opti-White & Booster Blanc
FT Blanc Soft

Vanilla Bean

3oz French Oak - Medium Toast
3oz American Oak - Medium Toast


Put the 1/2 gallon of brandy in a 1-gallon jug & peel/slice bananas up thinly until they wont submerge anymore - up to 20lbs

Cut 40lbs of bananas up and turn them into a lukewarm soup.. Probably dissolve 1/2 the honey into the soup... Add the additional water, pectic enzyme, let it sit for 12 hours... Stir & take hydrometer reading

Aiming for 16% ABV - the tolerance for my leftover W-15 yeast.. The first honey addition will probably get me to 12-13% PA... Will let this ferment down and add the additional sugar needed..

When the 2nd honey addition is made, in goes the other 40lbs of bananas (that will have had extra time to turn brown/develop sugars while sitting out), peeled, and everything gets left in until fermentation is done

Then i'll rack to carboy, degas & half-way clear... Not crystal clear, but free of all major debris.. At this point i could either layer in the oak - 2 months @ 3oz of french followed by 2 months @ 3oz of american - or i could strain the bananas out of the brandy & add, and wait on the oak until its completely clear... Vanilla bean is the last layer..

The addition of brandy should take it from the 16% to the 18% neighborhood

Thoughts?
Opinions?

Starting this just after the new year, but i cant quit thinking about it..


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## fatbloke

Deezil said:


> Figured i might as well post this, since i've been kicking it around in my head pretty solid since the lightbulb flickered on.. I found a "commercial version" of *kinda* what im aiming for (minus the bourbon barrel)...
> 
> What im thinking so far:
> 
> 5 Gallons Banana Melomel/Port
> 
> 100lbs bananas
> 9-12lbs honey
> 5 gallons water
> 1/2 gallon brandy
> 
> Go-Ferm & Fermaid-O
> Opti-White & Booster Blanc
> FT Blanc Soft
> 
> Vanilla Bean
> 
> 3oz French Oak - Medium Toast
> 3oz American Oak - Medium Toast
> 
> 
> Put the 1/2 gallon of brandy in a 1-gallon jug & peel/slice bananas up thinly until they wont submerge anymore - up to 20lbs
> 
> Cut 40lbs of bananas up and turn them into a lukewarm soup.. Probably dissolve 1/2 the honey into the soup... Add the additional water, pectic enzyme, let it sit for 12 hours... Stir & take hydrometer reading
> 
> Aiming for 16% ABV - the tolerance for my leftover W-15 yeast.. The first honey addition will probably get me to 12-13% PA... Will let this ferment down and add the additional sugar needed..
> 
> When the 2nd honey addition is made, in goes the other 40lbs of bananas (that will have had extra time to turn brown/develop sugars while sitting out), peeled, and everything gets left in until fermentation is done
> 
> Then i'll rack to carboy, degas & half-way clear... Not crystal clear, but free of all major debris.. At this point i could either layer in the oak - 2 months @ 3oz of french followed by 2 months @ 3oz of american - or i could strain the bananas out of the brandy & add, and wait on the oak until its completely clear... Vanilla bean is the last layer..
> 
> The addition of brandy should take it from the 16% to the 18% neighborhood
> 
> Thoughts?
> Opinions?
> 
> Starting this just after the new year, but i cant quit thinking about it..


Erm, just trying to get my head round this recipe Deezil. 

I hadn't thought of a banana port type batch.

Last time I used banana, I had an 18 kg case and even after "topping and tailing" the fruit, it went a long way.

I'll have a bit of a think and post again. But my attempts ? one with the banana sliced, boiled and strained from the pulp, so you only start it with the banana juice/liquid, another was just a base traditional, that then had banana sliced into it for secondary, another was just "topped and tailed" banana sliced into the honey/water and fermented, with more added afterward.

I'm thinking that with a port type affair, it would be a case of starting with boiled/strained banana juice/liquid mixed up to a reasonable starting gravity, then step feeding with honey to let the brew get to as high a strength as the yeast will manage, then after racking etc, adding the brandy to increase the strength, then adding the oak while it's clearing etc (idea's not mine, one of the people over at Winesathome has made a few faux port type batches and it's basically his process)


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## Deezil

fatbloke said:


> Erm, just trying to get my head round this recipe Deezil.
> 
> I hadn't thought of a banana port type batch.
> 
> I'm thinking that with a port type affair, it would be a case of starting with boiled/strained banana juice/liquid mixed up to a reasonable starting gravity, then step feeding with honey to let the brew get to as high a strength as the yeast will manage,



That's almost what i'm thinking, except you didnt have the 2nd addition of bananas..



fatbloke said:


> then after racking etc, adding the brandy to increase the strength, then adding the oak while it's clearing etc (idea's not mine, one of the people over at Winesathome has made a few faux port type batches and it's basically his process)



And thats the part i was wondering about


Guess i coulda typed up better steps huh? 
Try this again..


5 Gallons Banana Melomel/Port

100lbs bananas
9-12lbs honey
5 gallons water
1/2 gallon brandy

Go-Ferm & Fermaid-O
Opti-White & Booster Blanc
FT Blanc Soft

Vanilla Bean

3oz French Oak - Medium Toast
3oz American Oak - Medium Toast

Prepare the brandy
- Add the brandy to 1gal jug
- Add bananas to brandy in 1gal jug until it cant take anymore (up to 20lbs)
- Set aside until later

Prepare the must
-Mash/heat up 40lbs of bananas into a liquid/fruit soup
-Dissolve in 6-8lbs of honey (SG 1.090-ish)
-Thin to 5 gallons liquid in primary fermenter
-Add pectic enzyme & let sit 12 hrs
-Add other additives
-Add yeast starter

- @ SG 1.030, add honey to SG 1.060 - 1.070 & add last 40lbs of bananas
- Ferment until yeast give out

-Rack to carboy, settle out gross lees
-Rack to carboy, settle out sur lees
-Rack to carboy 

.... Then what 

Add the brandy?
Layer the oak?
Add the vanilla?


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## fatbloke

Below is the basic steps that Pete (from WaH) used when he explained his technique for "faking" port (faking term was used as we understand that "Port" is a PDO i.e. protected designation of origin - which within the "EU" would mean that it has to be made in area it's always been made in, to be able to call it "Port") anyway......



> Fruit, grape or kit base
> Ferment fully
> Sugar-feed until yeast dies
> Degas, stabilise, clear
> Sweeten with sugar
> Fortify with brandy
> Oak
> Age


He used the method of taking the ferment down to about 1.010 before step feeding it with honey - and said about using small increments, rather than one big one, as it seems that the yeast should perform better.

I'd have thought that for banana, using some in the ferment, whether you choose to boil them up to obtain a "banana juice" is up to you as, it would seem that most of these type of "fake" recipes would normally just use either grapes, grape juice or a kit as the base.

He did say about using the kind of yeast that will give you as high a % ABV as possible, which I'd have thought would generally be either EC-1118 or K1-V1116 (which would be my preference as I like what it does with meads more than I do with EC-1118).

Any further addition of banana would probably be best once the rest of the ingredients is already used i.e. the vanilla, the brandy, the residual sugared mead, etc etc, then leaving it to age for a good while - probably until all the fruit has sunk, then you would be in a good place to rack it off the sunken fruit for longer term ageing.

I can't say for certain, just a "gut feeling" of how I'd do this by pillaging my experiences of making banana meads, and others ideas or suggestions of methods.

I've got a fake port on my "to do" list, but haven't had time, or space, to do this yet.......

As for using, or even trying to use 100lb of banana ? The 18Kg case I used, well lets just say, that I only used about 12Kg of them, and even using some in the base ferment, then slicing the rest into the finished (and stabilised) batch, it still seemed like a hell of a lot - I still haven't tasted it yet to see how it's going i.e. as to wether it's "bananery" enough for my liking or not. But it's easy to forget, that they're bulky little buggers.......


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## Deezil

fatbloke said:


> He used the method of taking the ferment down to about 1.010 before step feeding it with honey - and said about using small increments, rather than one big one, as it seems that the yeast should perform better.



I think part of the reason for multiple, smaller additions, is because they wait until the SG is lower before they start the additions - 1.010 as opposed to my 1.030; might not sound like much but doing ferments in my carboys & even my white plastic fermenter, i've noticed visually, activity in the overall colony starts to taper off below 1.020... You can basically see the gross lees starting to form even though the ferment is still finishing up - I dont like to let my ferment get that far & start to taper off, when im step-feeding personally




fatbloke said:


> He did say about using the kind of yeast that will give you as high a % ABV as possible, which I'd have thought would generally be either EC-1118 or K1-V1116 (which would be my preference as I like what it does with meads more than I do with EC-1118).



I just happened to have gotten lucky with my Riesling grape ferments & had ordered an extra/just-in-case pouch of this W-15 I'm gonna use - i've spent the better part of the last 6 months reading into different yeasts and have come to realize the potential that they bring to the table beyond the ABV.. W-15 is said to bring mouthfeel (& "bright fruit") to the party, so this is basically my "test", as most of the W-15 from my Riesling was blended... W-15 + honey + bananas + additives & tannins; should have some thru-the-roof mouthfeel

But i'm also trying to expand my horizons on these other yeasts, beyond the "Basic 5" and this is only the beginning to my madness



fatbloke said:


> Any further addition of banana would probably be best once the rest of the ingredients is already used i.e. the vanilla, the brandy, the residual sugared mead, etc etc, then leaving it to age for a good while - probably until all the fruit has sunk, then you would be in a good place to rack it off the sunken fruit for longer term ageing.



I've been kicking this around myself, i was just hoping to skip cleaning a bunch of bananas-gunk out of my carboy... And honestly i dunno if i'll have room to store the liquid volume + 40lbs of bananas under airlock as i only have about 6-gallons of free space..

But i was considering waiting on adding the 2nd 40lbs of bananas, until the SG reached about 1.010 for the last time.. That would probably keep most of the banana flavor, and i could let it all sit in the primary until the wine went dry, giving it a good portion of time to extract the flavors from the 40lbs



fatbloke said:


> I can't say for certain, just a "gut feeling" of how I'd do this by pillaging my experiences of making banana meads, and others ideas or suggestions of methods.



Thats basically my attempt here - 

-taking the banana "soup" from a typical banana wine theory
-taking the 2nd portion secondary-fruit-addition out of the old "melomel makers handbook" (figuratively speaking)
-step feeding from the older/newer school meadmaker theories
-and the port style im trying to capture (fortifying to stop fermentation & save some of the fruits residual sweetness) but in this case, most of my 'residual sweetness' would be honey.. So i'm treating the brandy more like a sugarless F-Pack in this case and can backsweeten afterward with almost the same result


-Dont really wanna sweeten until i fortify because i want the sweetness to match the finished alcohol level
-Dont really wanna oak until i fortify because the brandy will contain some amount of oak & i wanna work with it, not against it

The catch...
-Dont really wanna fortify until the brandy has had ample time to suck the goodness out of the bananas



fatbloke said:


> As for using, or even trying to use 100lb of banana ? The 18Kg case I used, well lets just say, that I only used about 12Kg of them, and even using some in the base ferment, then slicing the rest into the finished (and stabilised) batch, it still seemed like a hell of a lot - I still haven't tasted it yet to see how it's going i.e. as to wether it's "bananery" enough for my liking or not. But it's easy to forget, that they're bulky little buggers.......



I'll take pictures


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## WVMountaineerJack

A little amylase might help it clear up faster. I want to make a nanner mead next season, lets see how this one turns out, your going to have to come up with a cool name for it first. CC


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## seth8530

have you considered creating a concentrated banana sugar? If you are intent on using 100 lbs you could create your bannana soup with little sugar in it and then boil it down or freeze fraction it until the sugar is where you want it... BTW if you intend on step feeding and want accurate results on the ABV give my calculator a try.


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> 5 Gallons Banana Melomel/Port
> 
> 100lbs bananas
> 9-12lbs honey
> 5 gallons water
> 1/2 gallon brandy
> 
> Go-Ferm & Fermaid-O
> Opti-White & Booster Blanc
> FT Blanc Soft
> 
> Vanilla Bean
> 
> 3oz French Oak - Medium Toast
> 3oz American Oak - Medium Toast
> 
> Prepare the brandy
> - Add the brandy to 1gal jug
> - Add bananas to brandy in 1gal jug until it cant take anymore (up to 20lbs)
> - Set aside until later
> 
> Prepare the must
> -Mash up 80lbs of bananas into a liquid/fruit soup
> -Dissolve in 6-8lbs of honey (SG 1.090-ish)
> -Thin to 5 gallons liquid in primary fermenter
> -Add pectic enzyme & let sit 12 hrs
> -Add other additives
> -Add yeast starter
> 
> - @ SG 1.030, add honey to SG 1.060 - 1.070
> - Ferment until yeast give out
> 
> -Rack to carboy, settle out gross lees
> -Rack to carboy, settle out sur lees
> -Rack to carboy
> 
> -Add the banana-infused brandy
> -Add 3oz French Oak - taste every 2 weeks, rack off
> -Add 3oz American Oak - taste every 2 weeks, rack off
> -Add vanilla bean - taste weekly, rack off



So i've been giving this more thought, and will continue to do so until i make room in the carboys & give this a shot, probably in the fall - about the same time as blackberry harvest & i can buy the bucket of honey to ferment the bananas, blackberries and a straight up mead all at the same time

About the bananas - I'm still leaning towards an insane amount but it'll be more manageable considering my added research on letting bananas ripen has led me down the road of wanting to let these bananas turn basically-black and then carefully separate them from the peels and add just the flesh of the fruit to the ferment. 

This is basically how its done to make amazing banana bread and such - the bananas are still good when black - provided they aren't bruised to hell - its mostly just a texture thing.. When a banana is green, it contains loads of starches and as it turns yellow those starches start to convert to sugar. When a banana reaches the point where it has a spotted look, its perfect to eat - enough of the starches have been converted that they taste sweeter and have a stronger flavor.. 

But to let them slide even farther down the ripeness scale, then they become perfect for baking - and im assuming wine... I'm also assuming this is why when people have used banana in wines before, they note not much flavor, because the fruit wasn't ripe enough - a theory im excited to test out

I dont know i have the guts to go for liqueur-black bananas, but ill see how they ripen along and probably make a judgement call on them at some point.. Probably somewhere between spotted and blackened.. Dont want any mold to grow or funky smells..

Just thought i'd update this with my newest notes so i didnt forget anything, and whoevers been waiting on this one could read something new


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## seth8530

I really like the idea of what you are doing. Keep us posted!


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## WVMountaineerJack

Our banana mead has already cleared, you can see your fingerprints through it. We did the cook the bananas, strain and ferment, step feeding with honey. A couple of things on your batch, bananas add a lot of body, so using bananas to test the mouthfeel of your yeast is going to not tell you much about your yeast, probably. Use the skins, you are looking for a lot of flavor you want the skins, they also contain a lot of enzymes to help clear up your mead. We always step feed starting at 1.01, jump it up by about .01to .015 depending on how quick I get the honey to stop dripping out of the bucket Havent people heard about amylase enzymes on this list, a pinch will help break up any starch haze just in case the skins are lacking in enzymes. WVMJ


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## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Our banana mead has already cleared, you can see your fingerprints through it. We did the cook the bananas, strain and ferment, step feeding with honey.



Did you use bananas that still had mostly-yellow peels? I can see maybe warming them up if thats the case, but im leaning more towards bananas that look like this or worse..









WVMountaineerJack said:


> A couple of things on your batch, bananas add a lot of body, so using bananas to test the mouthfeel of your yeast is going to not tell you much about your yeast, probably.



I'm not so much trying to test the mouthfeel capacity of the yeast as i am trying to create an overall wine profile that is monster in the mouthfeel department - between the yeast, the bananas and the honey, all of which should contribute to some extent, i'm rather excited to see the outcome



WVMountaineerJack said:


> Use the skins, you are looking for a lot of flavor you want the skins, they also contain a lot of enzymes to help clear up your mead. We always step feed starting at 1.01, jump it up by about .01to .015 depending on how quick I get the honey to stop dripping out of the bucket Havent people heard about amylase enzymes on this list, a pinch will help break up any starch haze just in case the skins are lacking in enzymes. WVMJ



By the time the grapes are overripe to the point where i'm processing them, i dont think there will be much beneficial qualities left in the skin as there would be were they still yellow... 

I've heard of amalyse but will only go that route if i have haze problems after about a year of aging - long enough for any hazes from the honey to have dropped out of suspension


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> About the bananas - I'm still leaning towards an insane amount but it'll be more manageable considering my added research on letting bananas ripen has led me down the road of wanting to let these bananas turn basically-black and then carefully separate them from the peels and add just the flesh of the fruit to the ferment.
> 
> This is basically how its done to make amazing banana bread and such - the bananas are still good when black - provided they aren't bruised to hell - its mostly just a texture thing.. When a banana is green, it contains loads of starches and as it turns yellow those starches start to convert to sugar. When a banana reaches the point where it has a spotted look, its perfect to eat - enough of the starches have been converted that they taste sweeter and have a stronger flavor..
> 
> But to let them slide even farther down the ripeness scale, then they become perfect for baking - and im assuming wine... I'm also assuming this is why when people have used banana in wines before, they note not much flavor, because the fruit wasn't ripe enough - a theory im excited to test out
> 
> I dont know i have the guts to go for liqueur-black bananas, but ill see how they ripen along and probably make a judgement call on them at some point.. Probably somewhere between spotted and blackened.. Dont want any mold to grow or funky smells..



With this in mind, i'm thinking ahead a bit

I have a bunch of bananas set aside, doing nothing special to them.. Going to let them ripen, take pictures as time passes & post it for those interested.. When the bananas hit a point where its worth wasting one to take a look, i'll be performing surgery & taking pictures along the way to see how the ripening process changes the inside of the banana.. The hope is to have atleast 1 banana make it to the completely-blackened stage, but theres only 6 bananas in the test.

As of now, they're practically completely yellow & rather starchy tasting (i ate one from another bunch not in the 'testing')

Time will tell an interesting story







So i took it a step farther, and went and grabbed another banana from the bunch upstairs, to do some "Control Surgury" - both of these bunches of bananas were pulled from the same box, which was previously-closed, underneath another box of open bananas. The bunches were laying together within the box.

So i peeled the banana - the peel itself is rather tough and instead of damaging the top of the banana, i chose to use the butter knife to cut the top off where it connects to the bunch and peel the sides down for the sake of the experiment. After peeling the banana, i took a measurement of the thickness of the peel - roughly 3/16"

The 2" mark is on the inner edge of the peel, with the outer edge being the measurement taken






I also smelled both the peel and the fruit - at this point they both smell of banana although neither smell sweet & the banana smell isnt what i know it can be, obviously under-ripe.

I then cut the banana in half, to see the inner structure of the banana






After cutting it in half, i cut the half, in half, to see the structure length-wise - to observe how this structure changes through the ripening processes







Following that, i took the other half of the banana, and ripped it in half to show the texture within the banana at this stage - should prove to be a rough timeline of how the starches in the banana affect the overall firmness of the banana through the ripening stages

The only way i could get an accurate shot of the texture was by setting it down







Hopefully i'm not the only one who will enjoy & learn from this rather everyday occurrence


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## fatbloke

Deezil, 

Even if they were as ripe as the darkened ones you pictured, the skins will still provide some colour and tannins to the batch.

I've used some like that in one batch of banana mead, just topping and tailing them for hygiene, then slicing into about 1/4 inch lengths straight into the fermenter and added the honey and water on top. I did hit it with sulphites too and then left it for a day or so before pitching the yeast.

With that much banana in the batch I suspect it'll be very "bananery" tasting......


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## Deezil

fatbloke said:


> Even if they were as ripe as the darkened ones you pictured, the skins will still provide some colour and tannins to the batch.



I was suspecting that myself, and that's part of what led to my little experiment - i was reading that as bananas ripen, and the starches are converted to sugars, the enzymes and nutrients within the peel are pulled into the fruit itself, causing the peel to lose thickness - so i want to see how much thickness they lose and what kind of state they're in (the peels) when the banana is more ripe than the picture i posted above of the rather-ripe ones.. 

Depending on how much thickness is lost and the condition at the 'right stage', ill either include or exclude the peels

I probably wont cut the first banana open until its at least at the stage shown above, then the other 5 will be even farther along



fatbloke said:


> I've used some like that in one batch of banana mead, just topping and tailing them for hygiene, then slicing into about 1/4 inch lengths straight into the fermenter and added the honey and water on top. I did hit it with sulphites too and then left it for a day or so before pitching the yeast.



How'd that come out? How long did it make it before it was gone?


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## fatbloke

Like all my other meads its in the pile waiting to be drunk...

I just get them about 99% clear the chuck 'em under the stairs for ageing (about 20 gallons there ATM). I'll bottle..........eventually!


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## WVMountaineerJack

Deez, bite into the fruit of the banana, it tastes nice like a ripe banana should, now bite into the peel - it has lots more flavor than the flesh. If you really want a monster banana taste you need to add the skins, it doesnt matter how thick they are, just that they are ripe. All your experiments are not going to put more banana flavor into the fruit than is in the peel. I only make monster wines, I would never talk myself out of using everything that I could to monster it up. 100 pounds of flesh, who cares. 10 pounds of skins, now you have a banana mead. 

Did you ever post what kind of honey you were going to use?

WVMJ


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## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Deez, bite into the fruit of the banana, it tastes nice like a ripe banana should, now bite into the peel - it has lots more flavor than the flesh. If you really want a monster banana taste you need to add the skins, it doesnt matter how thick they are, just that they are ripe. All your experiments are not going to put more banana flavor into the fruit than is in the peel.



Right now, if i was to bite both the fruit and the peel - you're probably right. And its probably a toss up when they're ripe.. 

But i'm going for "overripe", to an extent where the peel has sent its nutrients (minerals, vitamins, essential fatty acids, etc) to the fruit inside (shown by the peel thinning), has converted 80%+ of its starches into sugars, and has turned black because of a reaction between the leftover sugars in the skin coming into contact with oxygen

I'm going for black-black, but i dont know if i'll achieve that safely. If i achieve black-black, the peels will be deteriorated to a point where including them is more of a risk than a benefit - they wont be organic so they will have soaked in any sprays they received while growing, they'll have had 'extra' time for any molds or bacteria to get started between the brown-stage and the black-stage, and will already have given up a majority of the goodies.. 

If i only make it to a very-brown state, then i'll most likely include the peels because the risk factors wont be as high and the rewards will be greater due to the skins not having enough time to lose enough nutrition.

Thats just what the facts and my gut/intuition are telling me, so thats what i'm going with. By all means, do it another way - but thats whats going down here lol



WVMountaineerJack said:


> Did you ever post what kind of honey you were going to use?



Local blackberry honey - its sweeter on the palette than typical store-bought honey, has a wonderful (what i assume is blackberry) flower aroma and taste


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## WVMountaineerJack

I see, you are doing the raw deal, no cooking the nanners, I havent done one like that, I think Bloke has but we cook all of our starchy stuff, gets a lot more flavor from them - think monster flavor  - vs hints of flavor  Allthough I have a blackberry patch in my Wineyard I dont think we will ever get pure blackberry honey, its at the time of the year though when they are making light honey so that should be perfect. I think I went with some wildflower or locust for our batch this winter. I am getting ready to backsweeten it with more honey and cant wait to taste this batch of bannana mead, at least in the winter we get to taste our vintages WVMJ


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## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> I see, you are doing the raw deal, no cooking the nanners, I havent done one like that, I think Bloke has but we cook all of our starchy stuff, gets a lot more flavor from them - think monster flavor  - vs hints of flavor



Yeah, im going the raw route because im going to try to wait until theres *no starches* - or from what i've read, something like less than 8% starches when it starts in the 82-87% range - thats what happens when the peels are black as opposed to brown, almost no starches & more sugars which translates to that same flavor instead of what you thought would be lost




WVMountaineerJack said:


> I am getting ready to backsweeten it with more honey and cant wait to taste this batch of bannana mead, at least in the winter we get to taste our vintages WVMJ



Lemme know when ya taste it, how it goes.. I dont ever claim to know it all and always enjoy the learning process.. Appreciate the convo, ya made me dig a bit deeper and be sure of myself


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## Deezil

Deezil said:


> 5 Gallons Banana Melomel/Port
> 
> 100lbs bananas
> 9-12lbs honey
> 5 gallons water
> 1/2 gallon brandy
> 
> W-15 yeast
> 
> Go-Ferm & Fermaid-O
> Opti-White & Booster Blanc
> FT Blanc Soft
> 
> Vanilla Bean
> 
> 3oz French Oak - Medium Toast
> 3oz American Oak - Medium Toast
> 
> Prepare the brandy
> - Add the brandy to 1gal jug
> - Add bananas to brandy in 1gal jug until it cant take anymore (up to 20lbs)
> - Set aside until later
> 
> Prepare the must
> -Mash/heat up 40lbs of bananas into a liquid/fruit soup
> -Dissolve in 6-8lbs of honey (SG 1.090-ish)
> -Thin to 5 gallons liquid in primary fermenter
> -Add pectic enzyme & let sit 12 hrs
> -Add Fermaid-O, Booster Blanc, FT Blanc
> -Add yeast starter
> 
> - @ SG 1.030, add honey to SG 1.060 - 1.070 & add last 40lbs of bananas
> - @ SG 1.020, add Opti-White
> - Ferment until yeast give out
> 
> -Rack to carboy, settle out gross lees
> -Rack to carboy, settle out sur lees
> -Rack to clean carboy
> 
> -Add the banana-infused brandy
> -Add 3oz French Oak - taste every 2 weeks, rack off
> -Add 3oz American Oak - taste every 2 weeks, rack off
> -Add vanilla bean - taste weekly, rack off



Got the urge to pick this recipe apart for all the different flavor, aroma and texture enhancements from everything going on here.. Also taking a deeper look at some of the additives i'm using, to better approximate the timing for the desired effects

The honey, "has a deeper color and rich, sweet flavor"

From the W-15 yeast, "[FONT=&quot]bright fruit and heavy mouthfeel" & "p[/FONT][FONT=&quot]roduces higher levels of glycerol and succinic acid"[/FONT]

From adding Booster Blanc to the juice, "[FONT=&quot]a smoother mid-palate and aromatic freshness[/FONT]" - i've seen this effect in my Peach, which i had previously done a batch without any of the additives and the differences is night/day

From adding FT Blanc Soft to the juice, "[FONT=&quot]softness and improved mouthfeel", "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]enhances texture with a perception of sweetness on the palate" & "[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]can contribute to minerality"[/FONT] [/FONT] 

From adding Opti-White near the end of fermentation, "[FONT=&quot]for smoothing and better integration of wood and alcohol" [/FONT] for the brandy, french & american oaks to follow

From the brandy's website, "blend(ed) it specifically for richness and full flavor", "begins with a delicate bouquet of sweet and brown spice, delicious notes coaxed from its extended time aging in barrel. On the palate, inviting flavors of vanilla cream, maple and sherry linger into a satisfyingly smooth finish".. Plus all the bananas i'm infusing into it

Then the french oak, "aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel", "a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes"

And the american oak, "aromatic sweetness and mouthfeel/fullness" & "a campfire/roasted coffee attribute with cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy"

The vanilla and water kind of explain themselves..

It'll be interesting to come back to this post & see just how many of these bits actually translate and come through in the finished wine


----------



## seth8530

Keep us posted, this sounds really exciting. My one recommendation, which I mentioned before would be possibly to somehow concentrate your bannana juice. whether that be by boiling or freeze fractionating.

BTW im not sure if you are wanting to go down this path or not, but this right here caught my eye.
http://www.amazon.com/Bakto-Flavors...dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1


----------



## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> Keep us posted, this sounds really exciting. My one recommendation, which I mentioned before would be possibly to somehow concentrate your bannana juice. whether that be by boiling or freeze fractionating.
> 
> BTW im not sure if you are wanting to go down this path or not, but this right here caught my eye.
> http://www.amazon.com/Bakto-Flavors...dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1



I'm hoping this will turn out without any extra additions other than what i've laid out.. I figure if it really does come out to 5 gallons like i plan/want, that'll be the 20lbs/gallon neighborhood & surely the flavor will come through then 

There's a lot else going on in this recipe though so i'm hoping the overripe nature of the fruit will help the flavor not get lost in the other facets

That looks like a nice extract though, just not my approach/thing usually


----------



## Deezil

Deezil said:


> I figure if it really does come out to 5 gallons like i plan/want, that'll be the 20lbs/gallon neighborhood & surely the flavor will come through then



So this thought, triggered a thought.... Going to lose a bunch of weight by shedding the peels, so i need to buy more to compensate for the loss.. Cause i really do want to smash 100lbs of fruit into 5 gallons of finished wine.. Just to do it..

Oh, thats right.. i broke the scale (had the dogs help, poor scale couldnt take my 250 plus the dogs 90-95).. Gonna need to replace that i guess..


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

OK Deezil, you can freeze the peels and send them to me to make a monster bananer mead  If you let the flesh get soft and squishy and jellylike without rotting you would probably be able to get more juice than pulp. Good Luck, WVMJ


----------



## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> OK Deezil, you can freeze the peels and send them to me to make a monster bananer mead  If you let the flesh get soft and squishy and jellylike without rotting you would probably be able to get more juice than pulp. Good Luck, WVMJ





Bananas generate their own pectinase as they ripen which is why they soften up (nifty fact i learned the other day) so as far as rotting goes, im looking for foul smells & molds... If theres none of that, its good... And when they're that ripe, you're kinda right although its not that they have more juice, its just more accessible because the sugars are more soluble than starches...

Should be an event, im excited even though its still a while away


----------



## seth8530

Deezil said:


> So this thought, triggered a thought.... Going to lose a bunch of weight by shedding the peels, so i need to buy more to compensate for the loss.. Cause i really do want to smash 100lbs of fruit into 5 gallons of finished wine.. Just to do it..
> 
> Oh, thats right.. i broke the scale (had the dogs help, poor scale couldnt take my 250 plus the dogs 90-95).. Gonna need to replace that i guess..



That sounds impressive. Do you intend on using pectic enzyme on the pealed bananas?
Also, I know you are not new to this game that we play here, but I have found that honey can be quite a strong flavour at times.


----------



## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> That sounds impressive. Do you intend on using pectic enzyme on the pealed bananas?
> Also, I know you are not new to this game that we play here, but I have found that honey can be quite a strong flavour at times.



Pectic enzyme is one of my best friends

And ive used this honey before - it was great in the blackberry-cherry melomel thats still aging, blended in well with the strawberry-kiwi thats still aging, and was really nice in the 2011 blackberry that had unstable color and got mixed into the 2012 blackberry..

It should make a great addition to the bananas, its just a little sweet on the palette so i'll have to be careful what final SG i end up at


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, that final sg is exactly what i would watch ouf for. That is where i see you most likely losing your bannanas


----------



## fatbloke

Just remembered Deezil, when I was getting the free banana last year, the first gallon batch I did with slicing and boiling the fruit before straining the skins/sludge and fermenting with the boiling liquor.

It came out pretty bananery in the end, but that was after back sweetening. And I did sweet mainly with honey, but I recall attempting to sweeten it with a 1lb jar of liquid malt extract from the health food shop. It'd be equivalent to a light to medium colour malt extract I'd have thought. I was just a bit disappointed that it didnt sweeten as much as I thought and then used honey.

What it seems to have done is enhance the banana flavour i.e. complimenting it increasing its depth. A bit like adding a bit of vanilla to a banana milkshake - you get some vanilla taste but the banana milk seems stronger tasting too.

So maybe that might give you something to ponder i.e. natural flavour enhancers for the banana.......


----------



## Deezil

fatbloke said:


> It came out pretty bananery in the end, but that was after back sweetening. And I did sweet mainly with honey, but I recall attempting to sweeten it with a 1lb jar of liquid malt extract from the health food shop. It'd be equivalent to a light to medium colour malt extract I'd have thought. I was just a bit disappointed that it didnt sweeten as much as I thought and then used honey.
> 
> What it seems to have done is enhance the banana flavour i.e. complimenting it increasing its depth. A bit like adding a bit of vanilla to a banana milkshake - you get some vanilla taste but the banana milk seems stronger tasting too.
> 
> So maybe that might give you something to ponder i.e. natural flavour enhancers for the banana.......



It's actually something i've done a bit of research on before, although not related to this project & definitely gives me food for thought. 

I think the only malt i'd consider is the Briess Pilsen Light with a "clean, sweet, delicate malty flavor" & according to this, 1, 3.3lbs LME would make 'wort' of SG 1.020 in 6 gallons

Thought would be to add it prior to fermentation though, and would use the boil-water (SG 1.020ish when dilluted) to also dissolve some honey before pouring over the peeled overripe bananas & giving it all 24 hours with some pectic enzyme before taking SG/TA/pH readings for adjustments

It's a thought..


----------



## Deezil

I didnt mean to, but i was checking the bananas and as i set the bunch down, one of the peels broke off from where it meets the bunch - cant just leave it, it'll just rot..

So "Surgery #1" happened

Unfortunately, i only got 1 picture before the camera died on me, but that will show the spotted coloration on the skins.

The peel/skin had 1/32" difference between this banana and the "Control". The peel also tore lengthwise without me trying, and cross-grain instead of an uneven tear as per the "Control", this time it was a clean tear on the first tug where as the "Control" was a struggle to tear.

The banana is basically perfect to eat right now, a nice mixture of starches and sugars - definitely sweet and an increasing banana aroma over the "Control"; the starch wasnt mouth-coating although it left a lasting effect on the top of my throat/back of my mouth, it didnt coat my mouth and tongue like the "Control"

When i tore the banana, as opposed to slicing it, it still showed definitive texture which to me is a sign that theres still credible amounts of starches to convert & sitting longer should prove worthwhile.

And the camera is charging so this doesnt happen again in this experiment


----------



## dcteague

I've just finished making a somewhat unusual port mixing blueberry, fig and banana. I'm now itching to make a white port using fig, banana and agave. Would love to see how this comes out to inform that recipe build - keep the info coming.....and thanks for sharing.


----------



## Deezil

So i've been sitting here, and i keep getting these absolutely to-die-for whiffs of banana, making me salivate

So i took a look.. Probably do daily-updates now, as you can see the ripening process - theres another whiff whoooo! - is speeding along visibly...

Where's the Frosted Flakes?!?!?!


----------



## Deezil

And again..

It's been fun watching the progression so far, although i have a feeling its just starting to get interesting

The smell has intensified, the peels are getting softer, where the bunch meets has turned black and the stems are starting to shrivel a bit


----------



## dcteague

Have you considered the species of banana you're using? Your post prompted me to see what else in the banana family was suitable for wine, and found that the Cavendish variety (most popular in the US), was created in the 50s when the original Chiquita variety was hit with Panama virus. The Cavendish is not as sweet as the original Chiquita and has more starch. Apparently not many varieties are available in the US anymore, but the Red Banana has become increasingly available in high end grocery stores - these apparently are sweeter than the yellow variety and less starchy - but more expensive. Here's a basic description:

Red bananas, also known as Red Dacca bananas in Australia, are a variety of banana with reddish-purple skin. They are smaller and plumper than the common Cavendish banana. When ripe, raw red bananas have a flesh that is cream to light pink in color. They are also softer and sweeter than the yellow Cavendish varieties, with a slight raspberry flavor.

Your post has prompted me to start coming up with a recipe and I am going to see if I can find any red bananas locally. I have some leftover fig concentrate, and think it might make for another interesting desert style wine - Red Banana, Fig and Agave is my thought!


----------



## Deezil

dcteague said:


> Have you considered the species of banana you're using? Your post prompted me to see what else in the banana family was suitable for wine, and found that the Cavendish variety (most popular in the US), was created in the 50s when the original Chiquita variety was hit with Panama virus. The Cavendish is not as sweet as the original Chiquita and has more starch. Apparently not many varieties are available in the US anymore, but the Red Banana has become increasingly available in high end grocery stores - these apparently are sweeter than the yellow variety and less starchy - but more expensive. Here's a basic description:
> 
> Red bananas, also known as Red Dacca bananas in Australia, are a variety of banana with reddish-purple skin. They are smaller and plumper than the common Cavendish banana. When ripe, raw red bananas have a flesh that is cream to light pink in color. They are also softer and sweeter than the yellow Cavendish varieties, with a slight raspberry flavor.
> 
> Your post has prompted me to start coming up with a recipe and I am going to see if I can find any red bananas locally. I have some leftover fig concentrate, and think it might make for another interesting desert style wine - Red Banana, Fig and Agave is my thought!



I appreciate someone else doing a little bit of footwork on this all, thanks for that. My biggest fear is that the different variety of banana would bring flavors (like the raspberry quality) to the party that wouldnt mesh with the "mental profile" ive built up thusfar on what to expect... So the 'smartest' thing i could see doing is doing both varieties.. Cavendish then Red Banana.. To see the differences...

Same recipe.. Different bananas.. Might do it... I think i'll have leftover honey even


----------



## dcteague

I'm going to put something together with the red ones, but a small batch to see how I like it, and probably a bit different than your recipe - but I'll post some info once I have a chance to taste a ripened one. I bought about 5lbs I'll be using in a 1 gallon recipe.


----------



## Deezil

And again..

Come to find out, my experiment has been thieved! My 16 yr old brother (autistic) loves bananas, i'm honestly surprised i'm not starting over because he ate them all - its a variable i didnt see coming



What can ya do? 
Here's the 4 survivors


----------



## seth8530

Speaking of eating bananas I found last night that chilled bananas cut into thin slices with a small chink of dark chocolate on top served with bourbon is like amazing.


----------



## Deezil

And another...

Nothing eventful in the banana's world today, thankfully

Although feeling them, i can tell the fruit is starting to pull away from the end of the peel - not where its attached to the bunch but the other end


----------



## Deezil

Another nightly update...

Its hard to resist the temptation to eat them all, lemme tell ya...
Trying to find a source for quality red bananas..


----------



## Deezil

Y mas..

Almost thought about cuttin one up today, just to see... But maybe in a day or two..


----------



## Deezil

Well... i didnt do it today 
Maybe tomorrow


----------



## WVMountaineerJack

You have got to be one of the slowest experimentors in the wold It wont be long before you can make something out of these, maybe you have enough for a milkshake  WVMJ


----------



## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> You have got to be one of the slowest experimentors in the wold It wont be long before you can make something out of these, maybe you have enough for a milkshake  WVMJ



Lmao!!! Actually, they wont survive long enough as group to be used for something like that although it does sound delicious


So here's today shot, exciting right?








And today's dissection:

Here's the one i stole - the one on "top"







And this picture is a bit off, angle-wise... But i'll show it anyway.. I verified with my own eyes that the peels have lost approx. 1/16" so far, with this one measuring in at 1/8"







Here you can see the where i cut the banana in half - i used a razor blade for a cleaner cut, i figure the butter knife would lead to more "smearing"







And then i gave that-there section a squeeze, assuming it would mush, but it fell apart







And here, i replaced the leftover sections of banana after fondling it, and you can see the part of the banana i used for the pictures







The differences between this and the control?


The fruit of the banana has begun to take on the very first hints of what was almost a liqueur type smell - vanilla-ish? Very sweet, no starchy smell at all, although that was still present (about the only smell present) in the peel
The peel, peeled very easy - about the difficulty of tearing a SOAKED single-layer paper towel, and ripping it "against the grain" was almost as easy, compared to me struggling with the "control" to both peel & rip the peel
It's not yet the consistency of baby food, as shown by the "thought it'd be mush" picutre, although when i tore the banana it didnt show the "tendon"-like-look that it showed with the control; it was more of an even break this time, with littler versions of the control starchy-"tendons"
Dunno if i missed anything, but i'll edit this if it comes to me..


----------



## rezod11

Fun banana fact: Do you ever have trouble opening a banana from the stem and kinda crushing the fruit? Try opening the banana from the other end. It's way easier and won't lead to mushy fruit.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBJV56WUDng"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBJV56WUDng[/ame]


----------



## saramc

There is also a variety of banana that is referred to as the 'ice cream banana'..huge tones of sweet vanilla. Common in the tropics, but also found in stores in US.
I think they would be great in a batch of mead!
FWIW, if you freeze your ripe, peeled bananas and are looking for a treat, just place a frozen banana in blender/food processor and blitz until smooth. Instant banana ice cream. Add honey, nut butter, chocolate, whatever. Hard to believe that people spend their money on that Yonanas device.


----------



## Deezil

Lost another banana to Autism


----------



## Deezil

The last of the naner's
Probably slice up the right one next, its almost completely blackened


----------



## seth8530

Howd it go?


----------



## dcteague

I'm curious if you've considered using something other than brandy to fortify. I know hardcore enthusiast seem to prefer brandy because its distilled from grapes, but since you're using bananas as your primary source of sugars/flavors, I wonder if a banana flavored vodka or some other banana flavored distilled product might be a better match. Would be curious what others think.


----------



## Deezil

Still have 2 bananas left...

I thought about using something already banana flavored but i dont want the artificial flavorings.. And i considered using another type of spirit, but i really like what this brandy brings to the table.. They are things other people could tweak though


----------



## dcteague

What brandy are you using?

I am considering using Marie Brizard Creme de Banana if I can find it.


----------



## Deezil

E&J VSOP

Although i'm making a banana product, i'm wanting to bring "more to the table" than just banana flavors.. Banana on banana on banana would just be too much.. Although that liqueur you mentioned might be pretty tasty on its own - appears to be distilled from bananas

The brandy has some sweetness, some oak/vanillla/maple & then i'll infuse banana on top of that but i dont think the banana will overwhelm everything going on within the brandy.. When added to the batch itself, i'm hoping the brandy comes out as supporting flavors with the main focus being banana


----------



## saramc

Deezil said:


> E&J VSOP
> 
> Although i'm making a banana product, i'm wanting to bring "more to the table" than just banana flavors.. Banana on banana on banana would just be too much.. Although that liqueur you mentioned might be pretty tasty on its own - appears to be distilled from bananas
> 
> The brandy has some sweetness, some oak/vanillla/maple & then i'll infuse banana on top of that but i dont think the banana will overwhelm everything going on within the brandy.. When added to the batch itself, i'm hoping the brandy comes out as supporting flavors with the main focus being banana



Deezil,
I have been cold soaking a jar filled half way with ripe banana covered in E&J VSOP for a while now. I just remove the banana once it darkens and add new fruit. I now have a nice banana infused brandy to fortify my banana port with. I tend to use E&J VSOP when I do fortify because I like it. Sometimes I will do a blend with pure grain. I bet high proof spiced rum would be nice in this. I am ready to bottle this gorgeous nectar!


----------



## dcteague

When you think about it (at least the long standing concept of a true port), it is a wine made from grapes, fortified with a distilled grape product - so lots of grape, but obviously many ways to ensure it has plenty of character. I'm sort of thinking the same might be true of fortifying with a distilled banana product. Oaks, vanilla, raisins, fig, etc. can all be used to provide a bit more color to the end result than the fortifying agent and main fermented fruit. I stopped by the local liquor store and they can get me the banana liquor I mentioned, so I think I'm going to give it a go in my recipe and see what happens.

Oddly, I mixed my must this week, and the red bananas combined with vanilla bean gave the must a distinct pinkish hue - was sort of nasty looking. I'm hoping it clears to a nice yellowish tone rather than a blush. I'll have to post a pic once its transferred into the secondary. I'm thinking it was the brown bits from the vanilla bean.

The flavor of a red banana was hard to distinguish from a typical banana without comparing side by side - it was definitely sweet though, so hopefully it produces a good wine base to fortify.




Deezil said:


> E&J VSOP
> 
> Although i'm making a banana product, i'm wanting to bring "more to the table" than just banana flavors.. Banana on banana on banana would just be too much.. Although that liqueur you mentioned might be pretty tasty on its own - appears to be distilled from bananas
> 
> The brandy has some sweetness, some oak/vanillla/maple & then i'll infuse banana on top of that but i dont think the banana will overwhelm everything going on within the brandy.. When added to the batch itself, i'm hoping the brandy comes out as supporting flavors with the main focus being banana


----------



## Deezil

saramc said:


> Deezil,
> I have been cold soaking a jar filled half way with ripe banana covered in E&J VSOP for a while now. I just remove the banana once it darkens and add new fruit. I now have a nice banana infused brandy to fortify my banana port with. I tend to use E&J VSOP when I do fortify because I like it. Sometimes I will do a blend with pure grain. I bet high proof spiced rum would be nice in this. I am ready to bottle this gorgeous nectar!



This is what i plan on doing with the brandy added in this project, infusing bananas in the brandy before adding it to the batch - any chance you have a picture of the banana-infused brandy? I'm curious if theres any visual difference between that and VSOP straight-up.... Just got done playing with a bunch of that making Red & Gold Raspberry Ports



dcteague said:


> When you think about it (at least the long standing concept of a true port), it is a wine made from grapes, fortified with a distilled grape product - so lots of grape, but obviously many ways to ensure it has plenty of character. I'm sort of thinking the same might be true of fortifying with a distilled banana product.



True ports are lucky in that they are working with grapes, and are able to do the 'lots of grape' because grapes are more complex than other fruits, and its atleast my belief, that the winemaker has to do more to facilitate the 'complex' facets of the wines moreso when working with fruits other than grapes - to achieve the same complex final profile as one would with grapes. It's this thought that makes me nervous about the banana-on-banana - not because its too much banana really, but because you're losing the help with those facets other than banana.. If that makes sense..



dcteague said:


> Oaks, vanilla, raisins, fig, etc. can all be used to provide a bit more color to the end result than the fortifying agent and main fermented fruit. I stopped by the local liquor store and they can get me the banana liquor I mentioned, so I think I'm going to give it a go in my recipe and see what happens.



The brandy got all of its color from oak, which i'll be adding more oak to the banana wine itself but im also interested in the way that the oak is introduced to the brandy - actually in a barrel - and how that works with the oak i add myself

Thats pretty cool that you'll be able to get your hands on that liquor, i'll have to look into it just to check it out..



dcteague said:


> Oddly, I mixed my must this week, and the red bananas combined with vanilla bean gave the must a distinct pinkish hue - was sort of nasty looking. I'm hoping it clears to a nice yellowish tone rather than a blush. I'll have to post a pic once its transferred into the secondary. I'm thinking it was the brown bits from the vanilla bean.
> 
> The flavor of a red banana was hard to distinguish from a typical banana without comparing side by side - it was definitely sweet though, so hopefully it produces a good wine base to fortify.



How many lbs of bananas did you use, in how many gallons of water? How ripe were the bananas? Peels and all? Just 1 vanilla bean? I'm curious..


----------



## dcteague

I weighed them at 5.6lbs with peels, but did not use the peels in the mix - just the guts. I'm only targeting a 1 gallon batch, so figured it'll make for a good trial run and I can then tweak things in the next batch. My recipe is below:

5lbs Red Banana (pulverized in water via pressure cooker)
19oz Fig Concentrate
1.125 Gallons Water
2 Cups sugar dissolved in the fig with some of the water
1 Vanilla bean
1oz Sweet Orange Peel
1tsp Pectic Enzyme
1/4 tsp Tannin
2 tsp Acid blend
More sugar was added to hit 1.10 SG (approx. 2 more cups)
EC1118 yeast

My SG as measured tonight was 1.10. The must looks like dirt water - hopefully it'll lighten up a bit. It'll be an interesting batch. I will add oak during aging, and may add some other stuff along the way. Its an experiment right!


----------



## Deezil

I dunno why, but untoasted oak powder during fermentation just popped into my mind too... Maybe.. Possibly... Gotta refresh my mind on untoasted oak powder...


----------



## seth8530

Something that I bet would be great in this would be some toasted Hungarian oak. It can give nice pepper and leathery notes for a niiice body. I love that oak style ( :


----------



## Deezil

First off, a confession: i ate one in a moment of weakness 

So the Last of the Mohi-naners..

I grabbed another banana purchased yesterday & used it as a comparison - a rough stand-in - for the "Control". Also, the tape measure was stolen back, so I had no way of measuring the thickness of the peel.





​ ​ Off came the hat & shoes, "Stay a while.."​





And the differences become obvious instantly. Different coloration (slight oxidation), loss of 'curve', the consistency difference, overall size difference











After cutting them in half with a razor blade, you can see the differences in the structure within the banana. The amount of liquid on the banana and peel, are both significantly more than the Control/Stand-In. A texture comparable to gelatin, instead of a stiffer, firmer banana that we're used to.​ ​ I then, carefully, attempted to "break off" a piece, as opposed to cutting it, as seen with previous bananas.











And finally, before eating the riper banana (the Autistic Banana Bandit got the other, nothing wasted!), I cut the peel-removed halves, in half length-wise to expose a different aspect of the bananas structure, as seem with previous bananas. 











That would have continued to develop into a bruise, on the 'Stand-In'.​ ​ I would call this experiment a success - the starch levels within bananas do indeed change (relates to wine-clearing issues), the sweetness levels do seem to rise significantly (less sugar to add, to achieve a reasonable alcohol level), and the peels do seem to lose quite a bit of their thickness, presumably by injecting their nutrients into the fruit as well as becoming oxidized (the discoloration of the peel; an environment for 'nasties')​ ​ When the time comes, I'll let the bananas blacken completely before removing them and beginning the winemaking process​​


----------



## seth8530

Great research man, I can't wait to see how this turns out!


----------



## Deezil

Deezil said:


> Banana Melomel/Port
> 
> 150lbs bananas
> 9-12lbs honey
> 5 gallons water
> 1/2 gallon brandy
> 
> W-15 yeast
> 
> Go-Ferm & Fermaid-O
> Opti-White & Booster Blanc
> FT Blanc Soft
> 
> Vanilla Bean
> 
> 3oz French Oak - Medium Toast
> 3oz American Oak - Medium Toast
> 
> Prepare the brandy (months ahead)
> - Add the brandy to 1gal jug
> - Add bananas to brandy in 1gal jug until it cant take anymore (up to 20lbs)
> - Set aside until later
> 
> Prepare the must
> -Mash up of bananas into a liquid/fruit soup
> -Dissolve 6-8lbs of honey (SG 1.090-ish) in warm water
> -Add honey-water to banana soup
> -Thin to 5 gallons liquid in primary fermenter
> -Add pectic enzyme & let sit 12 hrs
> -Add Fermaid-O, Booster Blanc, FT Blanc
> -Add yeast starter
> 
> - @ SG 1.030, add honey to SG 1.060 - 1.070
> - @ SG 1.020, add Opti-White
> - Ferment until yeast give out
> 
> -Rack to carboy, settle out gross lees
> -Rack to carboy, settle out sur lees
> -Rack to clean carboy
> 
> -Add the banana-infused brandy
> -Add 3oz French Oak - taste every 2 weeks, rack off
> -Add 3oz American Oak - taste every 2 weeks, rack off
> -Add vanilla bean - taste weekly, rack off





Deezil said:


> The honey, "has a deeper color and rich, sweet flavor"
> 
> From the W-15 yeast, "[FONT=&quot]bright fruit and heavy mouthfeel" & "p[/FONT][FONT=&quot]roduces higher levels of glycerol and succinic acid"[/FONT]
> 
> From adding Booster Blanc to the juice, "[FONT=&quot]a smoother mid-palate and aromatic freshness[/FONT]" - i've seen this effect in my Peach, which i had previously done a batch without any of the additives and the differences is night/day
> 
> From adding FT Blanc Soft to the juice, "[FONT=&quot]softness and improved mouthfeel", "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]enhances texture with a perception of sweetness on the palate" & "[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]can contribute to minerality"[/FONT] [/FONT]
> 
> From adding Opti-White near the end of fermentation, "[FONT=&quot]for smoothing and better integration of wood and alcohol" [/FONT] for the brandy, french & american oaks to follow
> 
> From the brandy's website, "blend(ed) it specifically for richness and full flavor", "begins with a delicate bouquet of sweet and brown spice, delicious notes coaxed from its extended time aging in barrel. On the palate, inviting flavors of vanilla cream, maple and sherry linger into a satisfyingly smooth finish".. Plus all the bananas i'm infusing into it
> 
> Then the french oak, "aromatic sweetness and full mouthfeel", "a fruity, cinnamon/allspice character, along with custard/ crème brûlée, milk chocolate and campfire/roasted coffee notes"
> 
> And the american oak, "aromatic sweetness and mouthfeel/fullness" & "a campfire/roasted coffee attribute with cooked fruit more than a fresh or jammy"
> 
> The vanilla and water kind of explain themselves..



Didnt wanna lose these two particular pieces, amongst everything else going on in this thread 
While the recipe is quoted, it does keep changing as i'm learning so if you're following along in hopes to "play along", thought i'd let ya know

Due to another mead thread, i've spent the day reading on Bochet (beau-shea) mead... Basically a caramelization of the sugars within the honey, in a swapout for losing the aromatic delicateness, it instead has a caramel/roasted marshmellow kinda flavor.. And while i don't want to take it to that severity, i am considering a partial caramelization of the sugars, done to a fraction of the total honey, in hopes of more caramel character without completely losing the aromatic delicateness...

I may do a separate Bochet-style mead prior to this, in order to better grasp what goes on during the process of caramelization


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## saramc

Oh yum, bananas foster mead!


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## WVMountaineerJack

Banana Bochet, that would have to be a winner along the lines of Saras Foster. Burn the honey, roast the nanners in the oven to caramalize the sugars just a little so you dont have any butter in your mead (I know the butter in the mead sounds good but you would just like it off the top). THis place is terrible, to many ideas, I dont have enough honey to try them all. WVMJ


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## Deezil

It's gonna be a Banana-Melomel-Bochet-Port-Behemoth 

I'm glad i've taken my time with the research though, this is my first wine im hoping to NAIL all the way around.. Ive made some good wines, but... This is another notch for me..


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## WVMountaineerJack

You cant even protect your nanners, how you gonna make a plan  WVMJ


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## Deezil

I figure if theres 125-150lbs of them, he can steal all he wants and it wont make a dent.. Well.. Okay maybe he can make a dent... I'll figure something out


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## WVMountaineerJack

You are going to have to make 2 piles, 1 low down within easy reach and one high up and out of site, probably wont work, once they start to smell ripe they will be easy to find  WVMJ


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## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> You are going to have to make 2 piles, 1 low down within easy reach and one high up and out of site, probably wont work



Especially since he's my size - 6ft / 250lbs - "up high" doesnt work, but sometimes "down low" does 

99% will be in my winemaking area most likely.. but ill probably buy a couple extra "sacrificial bunches" to leave in the kitchen

It'll be interesting though


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## Stressbaby

The original banana before Cavendish was known as 'Big Mike.' This banana is not really available anywhere now, of course, but there are many, many other varieties that are delicious. 'Ice Cream' has already been mentioned. I hope to be able to report directly on one red variety...I have 'Dwarf Red' growing now in the greenhouse. It has not bloomed yet. I have several hands of 'Dwarf Namwah' which will hopefully ripen in the next couple of months. There is also one called 'Raja Puri' which I haven't tried but which is supposed to be excellent. All of these varieties are probably better than Cavendish if you can get your hands on them!


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## WVMountaineerJack

We got hold of some little half sized bananas that really tasted bannernery, they would have made a great melomel. How long does it take for your greenhouse bananas to go from sprout coming up, to flowering to fruit? WVMJ


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## dcteague

I have a batch of a strange concotion using red bananas going now, not a melomel though. I'm going to fortify a slight bit but not much since the ec1118 took my batch to almost 19% already, so I'm going to backsweeten, then bring the alcohol back up to 20% using Marie Brizard creme de banane (its the only distilled banana liquor I can find). Should be interesting once done.


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## Stressbaby

WVMountaineerJack said:


> We got hold of some little half sized bananas that really tasted bannernery, they would have made a great melomel. How long does it take for your greenhouse bananas to go from sprout coming up, to flowering to fruit? WVMJ



Mine grow from pups. You hardly ever find manners from seed. From 2' pup to flower is about 2 years and from flower to fruit is about 6 months. I think it takes mine about twice as long as normal because of day length and temperature.


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## dcteague

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm about to fortify my banana wine and had decided to use something other than brandy since it is a banana based wine. I had thought I'd use a distilled banana liquor, but haven't had luck finding anyone that carries the only one I've found. In searching for "fruit" distilled liquors, I came across Liquor 43. Anyone heard of this? Its about 31% abv, and has a great description in terms of flavor profile - see below:

Tasting Notes
Color: Beautiful gold.

Aroma: Light citrus, vanilla, extremely light touch of warm spice, but not spicy. Almost thought there might be possible hints of saffron, but if there is any saffron it is very faint.

Tasted Neat: Butterscotch, rich buttery toffee, lush, decadent, sweetened like honey without the sharp sugary edge. Lingering sweetness of juicy light flavored citrus. Faintest hint of floral.

Mouth Feel: Medium without venturing to the thick syrupy side.


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## Deezil

Quick montage here..







Bought 40lbs of bananas, let them ripen up on the table..

20lbs of which, went into a 1-gallon jug with a half-gallon of brandy







I then made two separate batches of Bochet.. One took the honey to a really golden color, while the other went farther along more towards a burgundy red. The red was done first, fermented solo.. Then when I did the golden version, it started to ferment and I ended up adding the Red Bochet, as well as the other half of the bananas that I had ripened. 







Fermented out beautifully, using Go-Ferm, Fermaid-O, Opti-White, and Booster Blanc.. Used W15 for yeast.







Then it came time, several months later, to separate the brandy from the bananas.







And it's all just been sitting, since..


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## Deezil

Well... Life keeps getting in the way, and throwing me curveballs... So the big batch that I've pounded the recipe out for, will have to wait. But it WILL happen..

In the mean time, I took the 2-gallon 'test batch', the 1/2 gallon of banana brandy, and some 'leftover' mead..







And combined them all into my 3-gallon carboy.

(That's not leftover brandy in the E&J vessel, but leftover mead that didn't fit. Will be used to top up this 3-gallon as the minimal sediment I transferred, settles. I just didn't have a quart jar on hand, which is what that mead is in for now)













Stay tuned for some tasting notes, in a week or two.


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## the_rayway

That's pretty sweet colour Deezil! I'm really looking forward to hearing your tasting notes.


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## seth8530

aaaannnnnnnnd we are waiting ( ;


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## Deezil

Has an aroma of caramelized bananas, honey. and sweetness from the alcohol.

The first taste that shows up at the party is the caramelized honey, followed swiftly by the bananas.. Both the caramelized honey and banana flavors linger long after the wine has been swallowed; the banana brandy comes through on the following inhale, with the mixture of flavors seeming to last for a good five to ten minutes.


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## the_rayway

Hey Deezil,
What I didn't see in your assessment was if you like it! It sounds amazing to me, but...?


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## Deezil

Sorry, its quite amazing lol

But it's not done..

I still want to add some form of oak, some of this chocolate extract I made, and some vanilla extract


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## the_rayway

Too funny. 

I sort of feel like there is no such thing as 'done' in this hobby. There's 'I like/don't like where this is right now'. But it always seems to change 

FYI, I went out and got a 40Lb box of bananas ($16!!) and I've set them out to ripen.
"insert evil laugh" ::


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## the_rayway

Hey Deezil,
Can you please give me your opinion on this tentative recipe? I don't have any of the Opti/Booster products, so I'm doing without on this one.

*1 Gallon Banana Bochet Port - tentative recipe*
30 Lbs Bananas - ripened to black peels
2 L Peach/Pear Syrup
3 Lbs Canola honey, to red
3 Lbs Canola honey, to brown
Pectic Enzyme & Amalyze
ICV-D254 yeast
American (cubes) & French Oak (dust/shavings)
2 Vanilla Beans
Nutrient & Energizer, in stages
Brown Sugar to step feed (at around 1.030 up to 1.060, twice)
Starting S.G. 1.090
Finishing S.G. TBC (would like to get it to ferment to at least 14%)

Fortifier (using Pearson's Square for final amounts)
- 2 bottles of EJ VSOP
- 5 Lbs Bananas stuffed in

I'm trying to layer some flavours in there along with the bananas. The peach/pear syrup is from canned fruit, and I'm hoping it will contribute a bit of subtle stone fruit flavour, ICV-D254 is for the butterscotch, cream, smoke and hazelnut. Vanilla and oak to layer in, brown sugar to bring molasses, and the bocheted honey for depth.


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## Deezil

Looks pretty good to me, for getting your feet wet..

Two things;

Might want to be careful using brown sugar; I've never done it before, I know it can be done, but I dont know what kind of flavor profile that will bring.. Could be good, could be bad...

No unadulterated honey? Lol.. Maybe swap the 2nd addition of brown sugar out with regular honey, to bring some of those unburnt flavors to the party? Just a thought..

All in all, sounds good, and will be fun to see how it turns out


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## the_rayway

Thanks Deezil!
I'm still very much in the beginning stages of developing port-style wines, and have some hold-backs in terms of additives. Ah well, i get my hands on them some day 

I'm going to think about the brown sugar a little bit. I have enough honey to put some 'unadulterated' stuff in. I've heard good reviews from others, specifically in a dried apricot wine. TBC for sure. 

Part of it is, the wildflower honey I used last year leaves a slightly unpleasant flavour in the wine. Don't get me wrong, the stuff I've made is good (yaay silver medal!) but it's that flavour that I'm concerned about. The caramelized honey doesn't seem to have that flavour. That's the reason I'm going for the canola honey this time - try something different!

Cheers!


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## WVMountaineerJack

You might want to caremalize all of it to at least really dark stage without really really being burnt from your description of what you want. Save some of it to backsweeten with, I would follow Deezil and drop the brown sugar, the bochet honey will be a much richer flavor than any brown sugar. 

Deezil, where you been, hop the fires out west arent blowing to much smoke your way. 

WVMJ


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## Deezil

WVMountaineerJack said:


> Deezil, where you been, hop the fires out west arent blowing to much smoke your way.
> 
> WVMJ



They've burned pretty close to the family property, this year, but the structures are still standing, so all's well..

Been around, always reading.. just haven't been posting much lol


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## WVMountaineerJack

I guess the silver lining is that it burnt up most of the fuel so you dont have to worry much more about it this year? GOOD LUCK, WVMJ


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## Jericurl

Yeah....I'm gonna need an update on this one...


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## ckassotis

Gave this one a start on Monday, and it is happily foaming and fermenting away. I used 10 lbs of bananas in the 1 gal with the brandy, as Deezil suggested. 

Unfortunately I didn't get a good shot of the bananas before I added them to the primary... but they were pretty black - really on the border of getting too ripe. That's an early pic. 

Also attached a pic of the honey, 12 pounds of orange blossom, which I cooked for 3 hours to a nice dark red, and you can see that in the primary before I brought it up in some water. Good Lord Deezil, I see what you meant. Perhaps the largest mess I've made in winemaking yet. Well, perhaps topped by the chocolate volcanoes I got with the chocolate strawberry port, but honey is particularly hard to clean. 

Let's see. WY-15 yeast starter while I cooked the honey and overnight after I sulfited the banana/bochet mixture, then added it Tuesday morning. 

Now foaming and frothing quite happily, and I'm punching down the bananas every chance I get. 

Deezil - did you back-sweeten yours at all? Leave it dry? Right now it tastes absolutely incredible.


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## Deezil

You may have done things a little differently than I.
No biggie, it should still be amazing.. 
But lets see..

Is the brandy set aside, or did you add it to the fermentation?

I had the two going side by side.. Well, three..
Two separate fermentations that I blended together - each of which was bochet'd/caramelized to a different degree.
And the 1-gallon of (20lbs) bananas and 1/2 gallon of brandy, setting aside, all the while.

The first one fermented, I racked to a carboy.
Fermented the second batch, racked it.
Blended those two, and racked them until clear.
While waiting for them to clear, I removed the bananas from the brandy.
When the two-that-became-one batch cleared, I added the banana-infused brandy.

And it's still sitting.
I haven't touched it.
Dry as it fermented.

I owe Jericurl an update, in the worst way.

College quarter ends ~March 18th, so shortly after that, at the latest, I'll have an update.


.. I realize all the pictures are gone from this thread too, sorry..
.. Had some issues with updates that Photobucket carried out and essentially made their website unusable - too many ads, too many movies, too much loading at once..


This is still the best, most complex, most intriguing, and most interesting wine that I've made to date.
It's just absolutely mind-blowing.

Still tastes like bananas..


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## Jericurl

> I owe Jericurl an update, in the worst way.



I completely understand. I've got stuff sitting in carboys that I should have bottled, etc, 9 months or more ago.


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## ckassotis

Hey Deezil, yeah I do think I did things a bit differently, though not too much. 

Brandy is definitely set aside - don't think I could have gotten the fermentation going if I had added that at the start. I'm not sure how you got 20 lbs of bananas and the brandy into a 1 gal carboy. While there is some room in my 1 gal carboy for more bananas, coupled with the 1/2gal brandy it is up to the neck. There's no room for anything else in there. 

So I used 30 lbs of bananas for the actual fermentation, and bochet'd all of my honey to the same degree. Just combined those all into 1 carboy rather than split them out into two. Slowly fermenting away with the WY-15 yeast now, but looking and smelling good. Will probably ferment dry and let them sit in contact with the bananas a bit longer before racking into a carboy. Should have enough to fill a 3gal, so not concerned with making sure it's still fermenting actively for protection. 

Then once it clears I'll aim to remove the brandy from the bananas and mix that with the bochet mead. Then probably aim to age it for a while, but will have to see how I feel about it being dry as a port. Most ports do better with some residual sugar to balance the big body and higher alcohol, so I'll have to wait and see and then decide. 

Excited about this one! Eager to hear how yours has turned out!


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## Deezil

Oh, score!

You're in for a real treat here, I think.

I didn't weigh the bananas that went into the 1-gallon,
It was just roughly half of the 40lbs I had sitting out.
No biggie, probably closer to your 10 than I originally assumed. 

I don't know that it'll be 'dry'.. That's kind of what caught me off guard about it.
The residual sweetness from the bananas soaked in the brandy, seems to have been enough to balance it right out.
But, thats gonna be a little batch-dependent (fruit quality dependent)

Mine was a 3 gallon batch as well though, and the 1/2 gallon of brandy was a perfect ratio

My grandmother, I showed her just the Banana Brandy..
She locked her lips on that bottle and started cuddling it..
It went down "too smooth" she says, just how it was..
She wants more, just bananas and brandy.

Had a 375ml bottle 'extra', on top of the 1/2-gallon for the batch.
Everyone did double takes, that tried it.

So...
Fair warning


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## Deezil

I just thought I would chime in here, and give the 'final update'..

So I finally bottled this, after 4 to 4.5 years of bulk aging.
This is easily the pinnacle of my winemaking, by far the most impressive creation I've ever made.

Sadly, the banana faded, but everything else came through. It is balanced, complex and deep in flavor, touches on all parts of the palette, and the flavor lingers for ~5 minutes after the swallow. It'll warm your chest - you know the alcohol is there - but it's smooth, and has a complex sort of spiciness to it that you'd find in something like a Brandy (go figure, eh?).

After ~4 years invested, I would encourage others to follow my methods as exactly as one could.
You wont be disappointed.

The research paid off, and the bottled bochet is a beautiful thing.


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## sour_grapes

@Deezil : Manley, it is good to see you surface!


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## Jericurl

I was just wondering about this the other day. I've got about 5 meads that I have to get going this winter but this is going on my list of items to try. 

@Deezil do you think bulk aging it for a year, then bottling it and letting it finish out would work as well?


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## Deezil

Hey Jericurl,

I would imagine so, yeah, as long as it's clear when you bottle.
I tend to bulk age at least 18 months but everyone does it a little differently so I dont see why a year wouldnt work as long as the finished product is cleared


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## WVMountaineerJack

You graduate yet Deezil? Nothing like school to make you age in a carboy for 4 years


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## Deezil

Sure haven't;
A couple more years to go, actually lol

Had to pack up all the winemaking stuff to make room for a study area, so winemaking is pretty much shut down around these parts.
Just bottled up the end of it, with the Banana Bochet Port


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## ceeaton

Deezil said:


> Sure haven't;
> A couple more years to go, actually lol
> 
> Had to pack up all the winemaking stuff to make room for a study area, so winemaking is pretty much shut down around these parts.
> Just bottled up the end of it, with the Banana Bochet Port


Be sure to start posting when you start up again. I really enjoyed all of your posts and learned a lot of information along the way. Thanks for posting this update, most of us forget to do as much!


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## WVMountaineerJack

You are taking this school thing to seriously if you have to pack it all up, got to keep at least one carboy going to dream about while taking a break from studying. A bottle of banana bochet after a hard day of classes


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## Deezil

This recipe is the highlight of all of the creations that I made, during that phase of my life pre-college.

Absolutely fantastic.
I still have some.

The banana was prevalent for several years, but it has faded to the background now and the spices from the brandy are more prominent now.

I'll be making this one again, for sure, when I can get some fermentations fired back up again


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## sour_grapes

Welcome back, Manley!


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## Deezil

Hey Paul!

I was clicking around here yesterday, glad to see lots of familiar faces still!
I'm almost done with my Bachelors degree, and I should be around more
Can you believe it's been almost 5 years?!

Finals week this coming week, two weeks off for Spring Break, 4 weeks after that for a degree-related internship, then there's only 6 weeks left @ 3 days/week and then it's graduation time! So excited!

I'm definitely making this one again!


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## sour_grapes

Deezil said:


> Hey Paul!
> 
> I was clicking around here yesterday, glad to see lots of familiar faces still!
> I'm almost done with my Bachelors degree, and I should be around more
> Can you believe it's been almost 5 years?!
> 
> Finals week this coming week, two weeks off for Spring Break, 4 weeks after that for a degree-related internship, then there's only 6 weeks left @ 3 days/week and then it's graduation time! So excited!
> 
> I'm definitely making this one again!



Oh, congratulations. That is great news! Best of luck with whatever your post-graduation plans are.


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## ibglowin

Good to see you @Deezil ! Congrats on making it to the finish line!


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## Arne

Missed ya being around Deezil. Glad to see ya show up. Congrats for sticking with the college stuff. Arne.


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