# Sanitize that Primary



## Waldo (Sep 6, 2005)

In between batches I am cleaning my primary with very hot water. I drain that out and then I then add about a gallon of sanitizer to it and swish it around good and to further ensure that all surfaces are covered with the sanitizing agent I use my wine thief. I fill it with the sanitizing agent then run it around the rim of my primary, letting the agent run down the sides of the fermenter.


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## MedPretzel (Sep 8, 2005)

Way to go!


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## Bill B (Sep 9, 2005)

HI ALL, I know I'll get some feed back from this, butI have been using STERIMINE. This is in tablet form (1 tablet per gal H2O) This is a multi purpose sanitizer for sanitizing food contact surfaces. I disolve these either in a fermenter or a carboy, let sit 2 min then rinse. This is the same solution that restaurants and bars ect use. Its quite simple and effective. After I rack or empty a carboy I always clean with B-Britefor storage. Then when Im ready to use again I use these tabs. http://sanitize.com 


Bill


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## lapslideman (Sep 13, 2005)

I just use hot water and antibacterial dish soap and rinse real well. Sometimes I use Bleach. Haven't had an infection in eight years


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## masta (Sep 13, 2005)

Using a detergent like dish soap could leave a soap residue in your equipment and ruin a great wine.


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## Hippie (Sep 13, 2005)

Using bleach can lead to a condition called TCA or 'cork taint'. It has something to do with the chlorine and cork. Google TCA.


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## lapslideman (Sep 14, 2005)

I've neverhad a problem using Antibacterial soap or bleech.I don't use corks either. I also like to clean my glass bottles in the dishwasher on the high temp rinse cycle.


I think there are a lot of things people are doing to make things harder onthemselves than they need to do. Sanitation is crucial, but often what people tell me I need...is just not true based upon my experience.


I live hours away from any type of brew store and I either stock up on things I need when I go to a city or buy stuff via the internet. Ihave run outof the supplies that the guys at homebrew store told me I had to use what ever they were selling or I would screw up my brews...guess what...I learned that a 50 pound bagof grain, growing my own hops, and getting whatever kind of juice I want will go a long long way. I don't even use campden tablets. I've only had one infection to date....about eight years ago in two beerbottles...they fizzed up crazy and I knew something was wrong. The rest of the bottles were fine so I think it had something to do with the sanitation of the bottles..not the batch of beer I made. 


I'm sure many of my brews don't have the appealof a"fine wine" but I'm completely satisfied whith what Imake. When I offer my home brews (including beers, wines, meads, and ciders) tomy friends I get rave reviews and genuine appreciation. I've also learned that keeping recipies simple usually produces a better product, especailly with beers....guess that's why they made that law in Germany so many years ago.


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## Waldo (Sep 18, 2005)

There is the "Bottom Line" lapslideman. If you are completly satisfied with what you make then you are doing exactly as you should.


Being new to winemaking though I am going to stick with the advice and instructions from the experts and those who have "been there and done that". I thinks the steps/efforts/practices are more to ensure the outcome we all strive for in making a good wine than just a measure to "Be Hard On Ourself"*Edited by: Waldo *


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## MedPretzel (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm not trying to be mean, but I see some problems in your methods. Like Waldo said, if they work for you, great. I'd be a little leery about some things, though. At least be aware of some potential danger.


lapslideman said:


> I've neverhad a problem using Antibacterial soap or bleech.I don't use corks either. I also like to clean my glass bottles in the dishwasher on the high temp rinse cycle.







Bleach is actually okay if you rise out majorly and use K-meta or Na-meta afterwards. Glass bottles in the dishwasher sounds like a great idea, but don't forget about the little food particles that could be swished up into the bottle and steamed into place using the steam cycle. I'd be worried that a tomato seed or something gets pickled in wine - or worse yet - causes an infection.




lapslideman said:


> I think there are a lot of things people are doing to make things harder onthemselves than they need to do. Sanitation is crucial, but often what people tell me I need...is just not true based upon my experience.




Probably true. I would rather err on the side of caution though when I have spent over 50 bucks on supplies and about 50 hours babying, stirring, creating labels and whatnot. I'd be devestated and terribly mad at myself if an infection got into my wine because of *me*. Because that is one thing I know *for sure* that I can control in my wines.




lapslideman said:


> I live hours away from any type of brew store and I either stock up on things I need when I go to a city or buy stuff via the internet. Ihave run outof the supplies that the guys at homebrew store told me I had to use what ever they were selling or I would screw up my brews...guess what...I learned that a 50 pound bagof grain, growing my own hops, and getting whatever kind of juice I want will go a long long way. I don't even use campden tablets. I've only had one infection to date....about eight years ago in two beerbottles...they fizzed up crazy and I knew something was wrong. The rest of the bottles were fine so I think it had something to do with the sanitation of the bottles..not the batch of beer I made.




I would rather say that your homebrew people at the store weren't very good homebrewers, if they believed that you HAD to use those supplies, otherwise your beer would be bad?I don't get it and I don't know where you're located, but that doesn't sound really like good businessmanship tome. But maybe I'm reading it wrong. That's happened before.......


But it's like yeast -- yeah, you can probably make wine without using yeast, but _why would you want to_? If there is something that can be reproduced, why not? Not using Campden tablets may be good for you, but I would feel quite uneasy about not using any sort of sanitizing agent. Beer and wine are different. I'm not that familiar with beer brewing, but I do know that it's a lot more crucial and unforgiving than wine-vinting.




lapslideman said:


> I'm sure many of my brews don't have the appealof a"fine wine" but I'm completely satisfied whith what Imake. When I offer my home brews (including beers, wines, meads, and ciders) tomy friends I get rave reviews and genuine appreciation. I've also learned that keeping recipies simple usually produces a better product, especailly with beers....guess that's why they made that law in Germany so many years ago.







If your wines taste good to you and your friends, then that is all that counts.



BTW, though, that "Reinheitsgebot" in Germany ain't being implemented as it was set up a million years ago. They use sulfites and campden and all those other goodies. Reinheit means cleanliness. The _ingredients_ have to be clean. Reinheit means purity. The beer's _recipe_ must be made following a tried and tested beer recipe. Reinheit, in today's German society, does not mean "without chemicals".... The bottles are sanitized in a normal way (as most would in wine-making) and some (natural - k-meta, others) additives are given to the beer that was brewed.


I know these things because 1.) I lived in Germany for 9 years. 2.) While I lived there, I drank a lot of beer. 3.) I was friends with someone who took me on a beer-making tour. 4.) In the course of my studies there, we had to go to a brewery to see "occupational hygeine" in practice.






Now in the United States, where there are actually hand sanitizers now at the county fairs, you cannot tell me that Budweiser or Coors (who claim they're using the German "Reinheitsgebot" as their Mantra) are not using any forms of sanitization things either. They'd be sent to the FDA, health department, and all other departments that could shut them down. 





I am totally not trying to be bitchy in any way, but I also want to warn people that yes, you can make wine/beer and whatever without all the ingredients - even yeast can be left out. But what you get there is something that is made out of chance. The egyptians made wine "without" yeast.... But probably more than half of their wine was lost due to "stuck fermentation." Sanitation is probably overrated, but if you put in all that work, why would you want to risk it?





Just my _opinions_, and not meant to be mean in anyway at all. I welcome comments and critique!









Martina


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## masta (Sep 19, 2005)

Great Post Martina!!!


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## Bill B (Sep 19, 2005)

DITTO


BIll


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## lapslideman (Oct 6, 2005)

Dudes...I'm sorry if I've freaked you out...I've just learned what I truly belive to be true. Don't wasteyour moneyon the super norinse sanitizers when hot water, bleachand / orantibacterial dish soap do the job. Hight temp rinse on the dishwasher works fine too....Food particals....oh my...just just don't wash your brew stuff (bottles) with the dishes and keep your dishwasher clean. By the way...I make sure all my plates, bowls, cups,glasses, and utensilsget rinsed before they go into the dishwasher. Call me a little crazy...but I've got this thing where I feel likeyou've at least got to rinse things offbefore you put them into the dish washer.


Many (but not all) homebrew stores are trying to rip you off. I went to one and they were trying to sell things to angle your carboy up so you could get that last drop of wine out without disturbing the yeast. I told them that I used mybox of dental floss or hairbrush depedning on which one was closer in the bathroom cabnet and it worked fine for me. Maye my angle wasn't 100% correct but theyknew that I knew what was up...


Don't be a sucker...don't getfooled. This is not to say that you should not support your local homebrew store as they often offer lots of good things for making wines just don't waste your time with the quick rinse sanitaizer stuff..unless you're lazy and don't feel like scrubbing and rinsing your equiptmentf.


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## Hippie (Oct 6, 2005)

We all have our opinions, lapslideman. My opinion is that you are giving bad advice on this forum. Bleach and antibacterial soap are very hard to rinse away and alot of times contain perfumes that can carry over into the wine. The cleaner C-Brite and the sanitizer B-Brite are both very good products and are not just created to 'rip-off' the home winemaker. I use good old plain Potassium Metabisulphite to sanitize. Hot water weakens it and renders it less effective as a sanitizer. I agree alot of shops sell alot of stuff that is unneccessary. If you use finevinewines.com,The Winemaker's Toy Store,for all your homewinemaking supplies, you will not need to be paranoid and can be assured of 100% money back guaranteed trustworthiness!


Thanks for listening.



http://www.finevinewines.com/


http://www.finevinewines.com/products.asp*Edited by: Hippie *


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## Waldo (Oct 7, 2005)

I believe that if you compared the price of a bottle of bleach and a bottle of anti-bacterial soap against a 100 ct bottle of Campden tablets you might just be surprised to learn that not only is the Campden a lot cheaper in the long run it is a time saver in getting your bottles ready to fill and not any danger of ruining a batch of wine with bleach/soap residue..There, I stood up and testified !!!


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## TNFISHRMAN (Oct 8, 2005)

Guys and Gals, I have a bottle of campden that I have been using for sanitation, I noticed that even after crushing 2 tablets and adding to my 1/2 gallon bottle of water for sanitation it doesn't have a SO2 smell and is sometimes hard to disolve in warm water.I did this 3 different times. I recently went back to using Sodium Metabisulphite in powdered form for sanitation. Are these Campden tablets still ok to use or should I ditch them? Thanks, Lynn


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## Hippie (Oct 8, 2005)

I use the blender to dissolve the tablets, but I would rather use the tablets for wine and the powder for sanitation.


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## Waldo (Oct 9, 2005)

What is the advantage, other than more precise measurement on what is going in the wine, of the tablets over the powder Hippie? *Edited by: Waldo *


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## Hippie (Oct 9, 2005)

Convenience, if that's an advantage. If you are wanting to use the Potassium Metabisulphite powder for must preparation and wine stabilization, get a good gram scale and sulphite testing kit. I would rather just use the tablets and then use powder for sanitation of equipment.


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## fasteddy999 (Oct 10, 2005)

you cannot tell me that Budweiser or Coors (who 
claim they're using the German "Reinheitsgebot" as 
their Mantra) are not using any forms of sanitization 
things either.  They'd be sent to the FDA, health 
department, and all other departments that could 
shut them down.
Martina the FDA and local health departments have 
no juridicion in a brewery. BTAF


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## Hippie (Oct 10, 2005)

Of course all breweries and wineries have sanitation practices!


First you say the FDA and health department could shut them down, then you say they have no jurisdiction. I am not sure you are a good expert commentator on the subject either.


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## peterCooper (Oct 10, 2005)

Sanitize Sanitize Sanitize
Let not the slightest little 'B' evade your eyes.
(adapted from Tom Lehrer)

It doesn't really matter what you use to clean your carboy with so long as 
1. it does the job and 2. it leaves no residual smell. Most things will do 
1. well but 2. is a little more difficult. PineSol will clean. I just prefer my 
wine to smell like grapes.

Clean is not Sanitized. There's stuff in the water, stuff in the air. Even 
your bottle brush that you used to clean can harbor mold and bacteria. 
Points 1 and 2 apply here too. Have you thought about using Oust? It 
kills 99.9% of all airborne bacteria and leaves a beautiful scent that blends 
well with wine.






I spent $79 on my Sangiovese kit, $22 on my carboy, $10 on bottles $10 
on my primary plus a bunch of other small purchases. No I'm going to 
cheapskate by not spending $3.49 on a no-rinse cleaner tha will serve me 
for 7 or 8 batches and about the same on a pack of K-meta?

I think I'll go with the experts.

Peter


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## bilbo-in-maine (Oct 10, 2005)

*I use the blender to dissolve the tablets, but I would rather use the 
tablets for wine and the powder for sanitation.
*

Hippie, sounds like you use the powder for sanitizing equipment. 
Assuming you mix in quantity for use over a period of time, how much do 
you typically make up and in what proportion; also, how long do you keep 
using the same batch before it needs to be replaced as it becomes dirtier? 
Thanks.
Bill


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## Hippie (Oct 10, 2005)

I use 3 TBLS of the powder per gallon of water in my kitchen sink and then pull the drain when that session is finished. I don't fool with keeping it and worrying about if it is still strong enough, etc.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Oct 11, 2005)

Actually I was wondering whether you keep a jug of k-meta solution 
prepared for dunking things like thermometers, hydrometers and wine 
thiefs, etc. which get used daily at times. Not thinking of major 
equipment like carboys or fermenting pails. I'm curious to know if there is 
a prefered shelf life for a jug of sanitizing solution, or if you don't do 
that, what do you do instead? Thanks.
Bill


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## Hippie (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't use those things every day. I don't make wine every day, and I don't check SG every day on wine I have fermenting. I can pretty much tell from the little stick on thermometer and from the activity in the airlock when it is getting time to rack to glass. I can tell from the temp and the clearing of the wine when the fermentation is about done also.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Oct 12, 2005)

I view such statements of accomplishment with admiration. Being a 
month into this new endeavor, I'm still without a knowledge base and 
look forward to working from sense and intuition based upon experience.


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## TNFISHRMAN (Oct 12, 2005)

Billbo, I do keep a jug setting on the counter for when I have a couple of batches going at the same time. I am new to the art of wine making also. If I know that I am going to be using a lot of utensils that will be needing to be sterilized I will make upa 1/2 gallon jug of Na-sulphite solution to dig things in and will also pour it into my test jar or rinse down racking tubes or hoses. I will use a 1/2 gallon jug in about 3 days then I will make up more if necessary. All the utensils that are being sterilized have been previously washed and are clean before I dip them into the Na-sulphite solution. Hope this will help. Lynn


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## Waldo (Oct 13, 2005)

I keep two container made up. One is a gallon jug and the other is a quart size spray bottle. The sprayer works great in ensuring complete contact with all the surface on my fermenters. I also believe that as long as your agent has a good strong sulphur odor to it it is still good to use. I also keep my hydrometer test jar full of sanitizer with the hydrometer stored inside it. I just put a piece of plastic wrap over the top and when I am ready for testing, everything is sanitized and ready to go to work.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Oct 13, 2005)

Hi Lynn, thanks for the info. Sounds like I'm not off base by doing what I 
do, which is pretty much what you do, except that I use k-meta and I 
have kept the jar probably too long. I think when it has "floaters" in it, its 
time to change.





Hey Waldo - the spray bottle is a good idea, worth incorporating. I know 
what you mean by sulfite smell. I imagine what I am still using is a strong 
sanitizer but as I mentioned above, it is not without "stuff" in it. Maybe I 
could strain it through muslin - or maybe I could buy some more k-meta 
and make up some more, dang it!


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## Joanie (Aug 16, 2006)

I know you can re-use K-meta but I don't. It's cheap to buy and easy to mix up. I know it's fresh and clean when I need it. Plus it does a nice job clearing out my sinuses!


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## jsmahoney (Sep 23, 2006)

I was reading in this months magazine Mother Earth News, that Antibacterial products aren't any more effective than soap and water and they can actually be harmful. Yet, here we go again, First to pretect out health we do this, second when we try and to the right thing we end up spreading toxicant on our soils what grow our food, goes into our air, and.........It's time for a glass of good wine!


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## MedPretzel (Sep 24, 2006)

i believe that they are harmful in that they actually reduce the body's immune response to the smaller "stuff" in the world. 







I'm all for cleanliness, but I thought it goes way too far when I saw antibacterial hand disinfectant at the local county fair.


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## Wade E (Sep 24, 2006)

I have 2 kids, 8 and 3, I have never seen kids get sick so often nor do
I remember being sick so often. One gets sick this week, next week the
other one. Three weeks later it statrs again. I need to start
fermenting *Amoxicilian *in 6 gallon batches.


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