# PBW alternatives



## New_Guy_Brad (Mar 23, 2012)

I have been reading and it seems some people are using a mix of Red devil tsp/90 and oxy clean free as a cheaper replacement for pbw.

I was going to try this myself, i picked up the oxy clean free and went to a few hardware stores for the red devil tsp/90 only to find none of them carry that brand. 

Can i use other tsp products or the other tsp phosphate free instead of the red devil tsp/90 ill post a couple pics below


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## robie (Mar 23, 2012)

Understand that this is not a sanitizer, only a cleaner.

I don't know the ingredients of this stuff, but all you really need for cleaning is the oxiclean, which does not contain chlorine.

Don't use any product containing chlorine in your wine making equipment.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 23, 2012)

Unless I missed athread, I never heard of Red devil tsp/90. I only use Oxy clean.


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## rjb222 (Mar 23, 2012)

I do not know what the properties in TSP are and what are the surfactant's used in TSP. surfactant's are what cut through the debris left behind. These are the key to clean what deposits are left behind from brewing. You can not sanitize what is not clean.PBW and Sani Brew are designed to cut through the deposits from brewing.


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## rjb222 (Mar 23, 2012)

Oxiclean is hard to get in B.C.


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## New_Guy_Brad (Mar 23, 2012)

Oh i guess i should have said i have read on multiple forums that people use this, but this is the only forum i'm on so i posted here.

um here a couple of the places i read people using red devil and oxy clean

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53077
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24199
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/homemade-pbw-alternative-191736/


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## Kabang (Mar 24, 2012)

I was interested in PBW as it is claimed to "clean in place" and does not require a mechanical (brushing) treatment. I thought this would work good for the hoses which I can't figure how to get into. After rinsing with plain water 2 or 3 times I then flush with SO2 solution (as the cleanser) and dry with my aquarium air pump. I don't flush with SO2 for the lab ware. I don't think it really takes very much. I've been using 1 gal. pickle jars to keep the PBW solution and the SO2 solution in. Then I use an auto-syphon to pump the water thru the lines and back into the 1 gal jar. I only need about 1/2 gal of solution to circulate through all my setup. When I pump the lines full of PBW solution, I let it soak awhile, but other routines are just straight flushings.


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## New_Guy_Brad (Mar 24, 2012)

Alright made a trip to another hardware store today and they carried the Red devil TSP/90 so im good to go.

For anyone wanting a cheaper pbw most places i have read recommend 30% red devil TSP to 70% oxy clean free by weight mix.
(pbw is ~$10/lb?, making the 70%/30% solution myself costs ~$2.20/lb)

Ill report back later with the results i have.


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## New_Guy_Brad (Mar 25, 2012)

Just wanted to follow up.

got my hands on some old bakery icing buckets in lets say less than clean condition. I mixed up 5 gal of hot water and 3tbsp of the 30%/70% mix and let it soak in one for ~ a hour or so. after the hour soak everything in the bucket was "perfectly" clean, all the old dried icing mold and whatever else was in it seems to just dissolve. i transferred that solution into 3 more buckets repeating the process each time and each cleaned just as well with no scrubbing at all in the last one i even dropped in some wine making supplies and jugs i picked up at a garage sale and they cleaned up beautifully as well. after the soaking i just rinsed with hot water and swished some sanitizing solution in them and let them dry. no residue left at all.

In my opinion this stuff is great. and at just over $2 a lb ill be sticking with it.


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## Bartman (Mar 26, 2012)

rjb222 said:


> surfactant's are what cut through the debris left behind. These are the key to clean what deposits are left behind from brewing. You can not sanitize what is not clean.



I'm not sure that's true - if you bake/boil your equipment long enough, it will kill all the germs, even if the corpses are still there among the grime. It would still be dirty and the crud would interfere with your wine's look and taste, but it _would_ be sanitized.


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## Calamity Cellars (Mar 26, 2012)

Bartman said:


> I'm not sure that's true - if you bake/boil your equipment long enough, it will kill all the germs, even if the corpses are still there among the grime. It would still be dirty and the crud would interfere with your wine's look and taste, but it _would_ be sanitized.



If you want to be extremely technical I suppose you are correct but this is a ridiculous situation to leave your equipment in. Dirty equipment is just asking for unsanitary situations to occur.

Remember that Clean, Sanitize, and Sterilize are three different things with different requirements to accomplish and different goals. In the home winemaking environment sterilization and maintaining a sterile environment is nearly impossible.

A thorough cleaning when finished using a piece of equipment and then cleaning and sanitizing before use is a great routine to develop.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 26, 2012)

I couldn't have said that any better! Thanks Calamity


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## Boyd (Mar 26, 2012)

I tried oxyclean on the green gunk left over from making elderberry wine and it didn't cut it even with a long soak.

PBW, about a gallon of hot water swished around in a 5 gallon carboy cleaned it up in about 5 minutes.

No need to use vegitable oil.

Going to try the 30/70% thing next time. PBW is expensive.


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## New_Guy_Brad (Mar 27, 2012)

Boyd said:


> I tried oxyclean on the green gunk left over from making elderberry wine and it didn't cut it even with a long soak.
> 
> PBW, about a gallon of hot water swished around in a 5 gallon carboy cleaned it up in about 5 minutes.
> 
> ...



Just another little tip i picked up that works wonders (especially on carboys) on crud that is hard to get off. 

Take a little dry rice and some baking soda put it in what u wanna clean and add just enough hot water to be able to swish it around, and do just that. cover the top (i use my hand) and shake away. The rise and baking soda acts like a softer sandblaster inside the carboy. 

I had a 5gal carboy that was literally growing algae inside of it that a brush wouldn't even touch, i did this and it came sparkly clean in only a couple min.

as for amounts depends on the size of the jug, 1 gal i used maybe 1/4 cup rice and a heaping tsp of baking soda, my 5 gal i used i think a cup and a couple tbsp of baking soda.


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## Bartman (Mar 27, 2012)

*Clean vs. Sanitized vs. Sterilized*



Calamity Cellars said:


> If you want to be extremely technical I suppose you are correct but this is a ridiculous situation to leave your equipment in. Dirty equipment is just asking for unsanitary situations to occur.
> 
> Remember that Clean, Sanitize, and Sterilize are three different things with different requirements to accomplish and different goals. In the home winemaking environment sterilization and maintaining a sterile environment is nearly impossible.
> 
> A thorough cleaning when finished using a piece of equipment and then cleaning and sanitizing before use is a great routine to develop.



I agree that it would be foolish to leave your equipment/supplies in a dirty condition, but I was trying to highlight the distinction between 'clean' (at least visibly) and sanitized (or sterilized). For our purposes on this forum, cleaning and sanitizing are two essential practices, while sterilizing is really overkill. In my experience, actively fermenting grape juice is surprisingly forgiving for poor cleanliness and sanitary conditions, but I wouldn't push my luck.


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## rjb222 (Mar 27, 2012)

Bartman said:


> I'm not sure that's true - if you bake/boil your equipment long enough, it will kill all the germs, even if the corpses are still there among the grime. It would still be dirty and the crud would interfere with your wine's look and taste, but it _would_ be sanitized.


I thought the purpose here was to promote brewing practice that made good tasting proper colors and properly aromas wine. So with in that statement you have a serious hole in your argument. As you so eloquently state ( the crud would interfere with the wines look and taste) Thanks for the qualifying statement Bartman. As to the sanitizing statement. Do you honestly think one could heat or boil plastic to a proper temperature to accomplish the sanitizing of the crud and still have a useful piece of equipment to work with. As for the glass used in brewing none of the glass is tempered so again shards will be left. In truth all I stated was using normal procedures the cleaning and sanitizing are necessary steps to making a decent wine. And within that statement it is true that you can not sanitize what is not clean.


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## Kabang (Mar 28, 2012)

Bartman said:


> I'm not sure that's true - if you bake/boil your equipment long enough, it will kill all the germs, even if the corpses are still there among the grime. It would still be dirty and the crud would interfere with your wine's look and taste, but it _would_ be sanitized.


 
Yes, until you expose the equipment to air, then the organic matter becomes food for the invasion of new bacteria all around us. Clean to me means no food sources to support bacteria.


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## robie (Mar 28, 2012)

New_Guy_Brad said:


> Just another little tip i picked up that works wonders (especially on carboys) on crud that is hard to get off.
> 
> Take a little dry rice and some baking soda put it in what u wanna clean and add just enough hot water to be able to swish it around, and do just that. cover the top (i use my hand) and shake away. The rise and baking soda acts like a softer sandblaster inside the carboy.
> 
> ...



Good tip! Thanks.


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## Bartman (Mar 28, 2012)

I wasn't trying to suggest that someone should leave their winemaking equipment (or other kinds of tools) in a dirty condition at all. As I said, dirty equipment would lead to gross stuff in the finished product, but the gross stuff_ could _be sanitized (i.e., where pathogenic organisms are reduced to safe levels on inanimate objects, thereby reducing the likelihood of cross-infection). I certainly don't want gross stuff in their wine or beer, and I doubt New_Guy_Brad does either. But my smart-a** point was simply that you could first sanitize, and then clean the equipment, and that he didn't have to clean then sanitize. 
And I have used boiling water to sanitize my primary bucket (water boils at 212 F, PVC melts around 400 F) and glass carboys and hydrometer, when I didn't have k-meta handy. Let me assure you, boiling water will do a reasonably good job of cleaning plastic and glass (and scalding your hands), all by itself, if you have enough of it.


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## robie (Mar 28, 2012)

I understand what you were trying to say, Bart. 

I don't think Bart was trying to recommend adopting/using his example.


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