# What causes my wine to be bitter?



## Snafflebit (Mar 27, 2022)

I am starting to get organized for bottling 2020 Cab and Merlot and did a sampling of carboys with friends. I noticed a bitterness on the back end of my wines that I did not seem to notice before. I guess that bitterness comes from seed tanins. I am fermenting on the skins to 1.004 SG, so almost to dry. I have recently learned that some winemakers press as high as 10 Brix. So, that is a technique I am considering for future vintages. But also I have 3 ounces of French oak cubes per carboy. I also use enological tannins. Do those create bitterness?


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 28, 2022)

I will be interested in the answers/ solutions others have come up with:

* Tannin is made up of catechins which polymerize, as the size of the polymers grow it changes from flavorless to astringent and bitter. (last years black raspberry was bad on astringent notes at 2 years age, ,, I tried fining but gave up). Your OP notes steeping so polyphenols chemistry may be the origin.
If you are judging/ tasting I would expect tannin chemistry to have long lasting (bind in the mouth) flavor notes. I would expect chasing the flavor by eating a protein as sandwich meat would clear it out of the mouth.
* I have observed bitter notes on whites and am guessing it is also related to low YAN and mercaptan generation.
*If you have residual CO2 it will give a bitter flavor.
* On food systems contrasting flavors as sugar are used to mask bitter.
* Acid is synergistic with tannin flavors so high acid will increase that sensation.


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## salcoco (Mar 28, 2022)

try a fining with clear gelatin found in the grocery store follow package directions


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## mainshipfred (Mar 28, 2022)

I'm having/had the same problem with a Zin from 2020 and possibly a PS that I'm blending with. I took a sample to a commercial guy and his first thought was seed tannins and possibly a hot ferment. I don't record everyday but I never seem to have a temp higher than the low 80s. As far as seeds go the majority of them are always on the bottom of the fermenter and do not get pressed. After letting him know this he then asked if I keep up with my sulfites. I have to admit they were neglected a little and when I checked them prior to the last racking they were down to 8 ppm and never seen a barrel or oak as far as that goes. 

His remedy was to try finishing tannins primarily those derived from French oak. He recommended Tannin Riche (not Riche Extra). I couldn't find it so I went with Laffort Quertanin Sweet which is a comparable. I bench tested using 100, 200 and 300 ppm which were all too much but the bitterness was gone. I ended up using 75 ppm. Even at this the tannins were a little pronounced but bearable, it just may have to lay down for a while.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 28, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> (last years black raspberry was bad on astringent notes at 2 years age, ,, I tried fining but gave up). Your OP notes steeping so polyphenols chemistry may be the origin.



What did you use as a fining agent? I have some bentonite, but I like the suggestion by @salcoco to try gelatin. I have a few bottles of 2016 Merlot that taste bitter. I see a very small controlled gelatin fining experiment in my future. I assume the gelatin form a lee that I try to avoid bottling?

I have also noted bitterness in whites like Chardonnay. I have never received a good explanation for its source. It could not be seed tanins


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## Snafflebit (Mar 28, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> I'm having/had the same problem with a Zin from 2020 and possibly a PS that I'm blending with. I took a sample to a commercial guy and his first thought was seed tannins and possibly a hot ferment. I don't record everyday but I never seem to have a temp higher than the low 80s. As far as seeds go the majority of them are always on the bottom of the fermenter and do not get pressed. After letting him know this he then asked if I keep up with my sulfites. I have to admit they were neglected a little and when I checked them prior to the last racking they were down to 8 ppm and never seen a barrel or oak as far as that goes.
> 
> His remedy was to try finishing tannins primarily those derived from French oak. He recommended Tannin Riche (not Riche Extra). I couldn't find it so I went with Laffort Quertanin Sweet which is a comparable. I bench tested using 100, 200 and 300 ppm which were all too much but the bitterness was gone. I ended up using 75 ppm. Even at this the tannins were a little pronounced but bearable, it just may have to lay down for a while.



The commercial guy may have pointed out every one of my winemaking problems. I try to keep my ferments in the mid 70's with ice jugs, but that never works perfectly. I need to ensure that in the future seeds stay in the fermenter and don't get dumped into the press. But I assume the alcohol is stripping seed tanins which then are integrated into the wine and pressing seeds will not change that. 

Also, I do not add SO2 to the carboys if the carboys are just sitting in the cellar with airlocks. Maybe I need to be more rigorous with my sulfites. I do sulfite before bottling. I guess that the idea is that SO2 is binding the tannins before they polymerize?


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## mainshipfred (Mar 28, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> The commercial guy may have pointed out every one of my winemaking problems. I try to keep my ferments in the mid 70's with ice jugs, but that never works perfectly. I need to ensure that in the future seeds stay in the fermenter and don't get dumped into the press. But I assume the alcohol is stripping seed tanins which then are integrated into the wine and pressing seeds will not change that.
> 
> Also, I do not add SO2 to the carboys if the carboys are just sitting in the cellar with airlocks. Maybe I need to be more rigorous with my sulfites. I do sulfite before bottling. I guess that the idea is that SO2 is binding the tannins before they polymerize?



Your point of the alcohol and seeds is well taken. Maybe I'll try delestage on a wine but it is a lot of extra work.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 28, 2022)

The mid 70's reminded me of this picture


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 28, 2022)

I tested egg white and did gelatin on the whole batch. The size of the protein needs to be proportional to the size of tannin. i didn’t get the astringent to pull out with either egg or gelatin. Milk/ caseine is another choice.
Tannin will not complex bentonite. Bentonite can pull residual clumps of protein out, ,,, and I have meant to try that yet.


Snafflebit said:


> What did you use as a fining agent? I have some bentonite, but I like the suggestion by @salcoco to try gelatin. I have a few bottles of 2016 Merlot that taste bitter. I see a very small controlled gelatin fining experiment in my future. I assume the gelatin form a lee that I try to avoid bottling?
> 
> I have also noted bitterness in whites like Chardonnay. I have never received a good explanation for its source. It could not be seed tanins


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## Snafflebit (Mar 28, 2022)

I am searching for fixes to bitterness. Here is information regarding tannins. I found a video from Gusmer regarding their StellarTan products. I think this includes some great info for the winemaker.

Polyphenolics StellarTan Part 1: Let's Talk Tannins!
Polyphenolics StellarTan Part 2: Tannin Preception & Management
Polyphenolics StellarTan Part 3: Tannin Management In The Winery
Polyphenolics StellarTan Part 4: Why Add Tannins?

The presenter mentions biting into a green versus ripe banana. The green banana is very astringent but the ripe banana is not. However there are exactly the same tannins in both, the sweetness masks the flavor. Actually it is more complicated, involving saliva protein being pulled away by tannin. He also mentions bitter tannin flavor will diminish as the tannins polymerize and become astringent.

I considered trying some wine conditioner to bump up the glycerol and sweetness of the wine in order to mask the bitter. But then I am concerned about affecting the aging potential.

Adding cellaring tannin seems to be another technique as mentioned prior by @mainshipfred. For the record, StellarTan HP was suggested by the video for reducing bitterness and astringency.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 28, 2022)

My first instinct was to remove or fine the bitter tannins, but maybe that is fighting the battle wrong. The research is leading me to think that masking the bitterness is the right approach.

Here is a second video that more or less coroborates the other video's findings: "Adding tannins can reduce astringency. I know it sounds crazy but it works" Bucher-Vaslin Vinitan Advance

The Use of Tannins In Winemaking


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## mainshipfred (Mar 29, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I am searching for fixes to bitterness. Here is information regarding tannins. I found a video from Gusmer regarding their StellarTan products. I think this includes some great info for the winemaker.
> 
> Polyphenolics StellarTan Part 1: Let's Talk Tannins!
> Polyphenolics StellarTan Part 2: Tannin Preception & Management
> ...



I was considering sweetening the wine after the tannin addition but it went through MLF. Wine conditioner has sorbate added so I'm afraid to add it. Glycerin might be considered though in my experience it takes quite a bit. I may try some bench trials using it.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 29, 2022)

flavor? ,,, last harvest I did several pickings of crab apple, *early september would be harsh/ very aggressive, *normal apple picking in October was smoother and still bitter, *collecting after frost the flavor was weak basically useless. 
Banana skin has excellent astringent notes when green. Without chemistry numbers as Gusman it feels similar to the apple case where the molecules are evolving as the season progresses, ,, grape harvesting stories also use terms as harsh for early harvest tannin.

good videos, will have to think how to translate to fruit wines.


Snafflebit said:


> . . . mentions biting into a green versus ripe banana. The green banana is very astringent but the ripe banana is not. However there are exactly the same tannins in both, the sweetness masks the flavor. Actually it is more complicated, involving saliva protein being pulled away by tannin. He also mentions bitter tannin flavor will diminish as the tannins polymerize and become astringent.
> 
> I considered trying some wine conditioner to bump up the glycerol and sweetness of the wine in order to mask the bitter.


I have tried glycerine. In bench tests it seemed to work, but in the real world where I added two 4oz bottles and then went to the store for more and now have the quart size it turns out as not really practical.


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## Mekpdue (Mar 29, 2022)

I just wanted to say this is an interesting string. I placed a WE Super Tuscan (Private Reserve-w/skins) in carboys on November 4th, '21 for aging and just sampled it. I was disappointed. Now, I have read that most red 'pasteurized' wine kits have an 'off-flavor' that can be strongly detected by some, and that by aging for 6-12 months (or longer) and bottling for another 4-6 months usually brings out the wine characteristics and leaves most of the bitterness behind. But having this wine still be 'extremely bitter' after 4 months, and especially a WE Luna Rosa bottled as per directions (still nowhere near good) in August 21, I'm beginning to wonder if adding some cellaring tannin or bottling tannin on these kits a month before bottling will help.

For what it's worth, the red FWK kits that I have crafted don't seem to have the issue. I believe someone else on here echoed this earlier on a separate thread.

And lastly, I did add some Vintner Wine Tannin to an Italian Nebbiolo juice last fall. It's coming along nicely, but truly just needs more age.


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## balatonwine (Mar 29, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> I will be interested in the answers/ solutions others have come up with:



Well.... Since you asked... I think it complicated. See below....




Rice_Guy said:


> * I have observed bitter notes on whites and am guessing it is also related to low YAN and mercaptan generation.



I can only comment on white wines, since that is what I make (well... I do make Amber wine but that is another topic). And to fully clarify my position I really dislike the American ideal of wine.... Way too sweet. The total concept of back sweetening a wine. Eww. Common in the USA, but pretty much only in the USA.

So, knowing where I stand, to that, what someone in the USA calls "bitter" may not be "bitter" to another wine drinker in another country. Thus this is the first issue to consider. I for one like a bit of astringency in my wine. And rather dislike sweet wines oh too popular in the USA. Tastes differ as to what is "bitter". And, no, for reference, I thus do not like Tokaji wine.

As for YAN and mercaptans, when I have had mercaptans in my wine, the wine was flabby and dull. Not bitter or acidic or astringent. I have never measured my YAN (in fact, I do not adjust my wine or my vineyards), but I do measure my yearly environmental factors. And different years, with different weather, do create different wine, with different amounts amounts of bitter, sweetness, etc. etc. etc. That is a lot has to do with that year's environment in which the grapes are grown. That is... the age old idea of a "vintage". Some years will be different than others.

One has two options (or more --- I do not want to create a false dichotomy, but these two are the ones to most consider):

1) Spend a lot of time and effort to try to correct the wine in the cellar to make it want you want it to be.
2) Let the wine be what is it, and enjoy it for what it is. A vintage.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 29, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Well.... Since you asked... I think it complicated. See below....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All your points are well taken and in my opinion to be very true. In my case though the bitterness is way above the threshold of acceptable, almost to the point I might consider it a fault and the first time I've ever experienced it. Prior to adding the tannins the fruity level was almost non existent though tannins did bring it back a little. I have some Norton that is a real fruit bomb I'm going to blend with it and pretty sure this will be the fix, blending is a wonderful thing.


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## balatonwine (Mar 29, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> All your points are well taken and in my opinion to be very true. In my case though the bitterness is way above the threshold of acceptable, almost to the point I might consider it a fault and the first time I've ever experienced it. Prior to adding the tannins the fruity level was almost non existent though tannins did bring it back a little. I have some Norton that is a real fruit bomb I'm going to blend with it and pretty sure this will be the fix, blending is a wonderful thing.



Appreciate your comment. Very kind.

Of course, I can only comment on the vines I grow and the wine type I make. My experience may not be appropriate for others. For all vines and wine types. None of which be correct in all cases. Ergo -- Back to as I often say: It is complicated. We can but default to the collective mind here, and hope to improve our individual art of wine making based on maybe imperfect information, but information that will evolve over time with experience...


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## heatherd (Mar 29, 2022)

balatonwine said:


> Well.... Since you asked... I think it complicated. See below....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate your points very much. On the idea of letting the wine be what it is, I talked to a US-based, small-scale winemaker (Kevin at Harford Vineyards here in MD) a couple years ago who said he doesn't adjust the grapes and let's the wine be as it is and representative of all the factors of that year. Several folks on this forum and I bought fresh grapes and juice from him for a few years.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 29, 2022)

I am certainly not a wine expert, but because I make wine my American friends ask for my wine recommendations. I get to experience what my wine drinking friends say they like in a wine and how their reactions differ after their choice. Most of the time people cannot really explain the style of wine they like. A sommelier's job must be very stressful. What I have noticed in less experienced wine drinkers is a preference for fruitier, bolder wines, with a touch of sweetness which seems to signal that the wine is good value for the money. I have selected lighter Bordeaux or Brunello di Montalcino and everyone drinking them thinks they taste fine, but I can tell that they are wondering what the fuss and high price are all about. Bitter tasting wine is a very high hurdle to cross for most people, and because I make the wine for other people I have to be aware that most people will not be able or willing to explain why they don't like my product.


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 29, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> I was considering sweetening the wine after the tannin addition but it went through MLF. Wine conditioner has sorbate added so I'm afraid to add it. Glycerin might be considered though in my experience it takes quite a bit. I may try some bench trials using it.


If MLF is complete then it’s ok to add sorbate and Kmeta. If MLF is not complete the Kmeta will produce a geranium flavor.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 29, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> If MLF is complete then it’s ok to add sorbate and Kmeta. If MLF is not complete the Kmeta will produce a geranium flavor.



Are you positive that's how it works. I thought the sorbate reacted with the lactic acid to cause it, I may have always misunderstood.


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 29, 2022)

Pumpkinman said:


> Malolactic fermentation in the presence of sorbate yields hexadienol, which produces the strong and disagreeable odor of rotting geraniums - an unfixable and highly undesirable outcome!
> I'm not sure if an "absolute" filter will make a difference, these filters are expensive especially if there is no guarantee that t will work as you would like it to.











Potassium Sorbate vs. Potassium Metabisulfite


If you are getting started in winemaking, you may notice that nearly any set of instructions involves the addition of both potassium metabisulfite and potassium




www.smartwinemaking.com





The general recommendation is to add Kmeta after MLF is complete, usually a few weeks to a few months, depending on temperature. Then bulk age. Sorbate and Kmeta at bottling, especially if you back sweeten. I’ve seen sorbate advice that says it’s not needed if not back sweetening.


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## berrycrush (Mar 29, 2022)

I would just let the wine age. Tanning, acid, tartness will all mellow out in time and they might give the wine a nice structure. No?


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## winemaker81 (Mar 29, 2022)

mainshipfred said:


> I was considering sweetening the wine after the tannin addition but it went through MLF. Wine conditioner has sorbate added so I'm afraid to add it. Glycerin might be considered though in my experience it takes quite a bit. I may try some bench trials using it.


You might consider glycerin to avoid a problem. Typically I add 1/2 to 1 oz glycerin per gallon of wine.

Search the forum before adding sorbate -- I know this has been discussed in detail in the last 6 months.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 29, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> If MLF is complete then it’s ok to add sorbate and Kmeta. If MLF is not complete the Kmeta will produce a geranium flavor.



Yeah, I believe you have that crossed. It is sorbate+MLF bacteria that can cause geraniums, not meta+MLF.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 29, 2022)

berrycrush said:


> I would just let the wine age. Tanning, acid, tartness will all mellow out in time and they might give the wine a nice structure. No?


I think that time will reduce the bitterness of my wine, but I have a 2016 Merlot that still tastes bitter, and as one presenter in the tannin videos says time probably will not fix bitterness. Unless I want to wait a decade, I suppose.


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## tmcfadden932 (Mar 30, 2022)

PVPP will take out bitterness.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 30, 2022)

I would give some of the ideas a try. Maybe split up the batch and try different things on a small scale. I read this Fining Agents - The Australian Wine Research Institute before I tried egg whites on my troublesome 2020 PV batch. I didn't have bitterness per say; just no nose and a musty smell and taste at least on the back end. I was afraid to bottle without taking some steps to improve the nose and flavor. I was still not satisfied when I did bottle but it appears, the fining and time are making an improvement 

I think the egg whites stripped a little color but I was willing to give up color rather than dump the batch.

I'd say give the pvpp a try. Glycerin can be added later if the pvpp fails or is not enough.

I was able to reduce the sourness of a red raspberry with calcium carbonate and back sweetening. My fig with bad VA is improving with lots of oak; I expect to back sweeten and maybe pop it in the attic over the summer to see if it oxidizes to a sherry style, I have little to lose.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 30, 2022)

I have looked into PVPP. I read that the wine should be filtered afterward and I am NOT excited about buying a filter pack.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 30, 2022)

Mekpdue said:


> I just wanted to say this is an interesting string. I placed a WE Super Tuscan (Private Reserve-w/skins) in carboys on November 4th, '21 for aging and just sampled it. I was disappointed. Now, I have read that most red 'pasteurized' wine kits have an 'off-flavor' that can be strongly detected by some, and that by aging for 6-12 months (or longer) and bottling for another 4-6 months usually brings out the wine characteristics and leaves most of the bitterness behind. But having this wine still be 'extremely bitter' after 4 months, and especially a WE Luna Rosa bottled as per directions (still nowhere near good) in August 21, I'm beginning to wonder if adding some cellaring tannin or bottling tannin on these kits a month before bottling will help.
> 
> For what it's worth, the red FWK kits that I have crafted don't seem to have the issue. I believe someone else on here echoed this earlier on a separate thread.
> 
> And lastly, I did add some Vintner Wine Tannin to an Italian Nebbiolo juice last fall. It's coming along nicely, but truly just needs more age.


My experience so far: I have an RJS En Primeur Cab that tasted way sharp and kit taste at 6 months, then at 12 months tasted flabby so I thought I had ruined it. Oxidation? You can't fix that. But just left it alone. At 1-1/2 years it was a totally different wine. Very well balanced. Tasty. 
I also have a Petite Pearl from grapes that after a year, an attempt at MLF and cold stabilizing, was still tart, almost sour. I asked on this forum and the response I got was "what's your hurry, it's only been 1 year.  After 1-1/2 years it has begun to round out a bit so gives me some hope.
In my case I'm glad I didn't try to fix these early, because if it didn't improve, there would be no way of knowing if it failed because it was a loser all along or if it was my fix that screwed it up. 
One of the best suggestions I've been following is from @winemaker81. He always suggests tasting wines at various stages and writing down your impressions. It's been a great way for me to learn the changes that wines go through over time.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 30, 2022)

Khristyjeff said:


> One of the best suggestions I've been following is from @winemaker81. He always suggests tasting wines at various stages and writing down your impressions. It's been a great way for me to learn the changes that wines go through over time.


Cool! I'm happy that advice is useful.

A good example of this is my *Oak Stix Experiment*, in which I taste tested @Mike - Next Level Oak's *oak products* against oak cubes. The 4 wines went up-and-down during the 6 months of tasting, often in surprising ways. Several times during the test I thought one or more of the wines were tanking. We're now 6 months in the bottle and the wines are maturing very nicely.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 30, 2022)

Now I am reading Scott Labs literature. They sell products with PVPP and casein, both of which are used to remove bitter phenols: Polycacel and Polycel. My local wine supply shop has several Scott products including Tannin Riche and maybe they have Polycel. According to Scott, the Polycel settles after a week and can be racked or filtered. Adding tannin is the easiest first step, I think.


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## Larsen Cottrell (Mar 31, 2022)

Khristyjeff said:


> My experience so far: I have an RJS En Primeur Cab that tasted way sharp and kit taste at 6 months, then at 12 months tasted flabby so I thought I had ruined it. Oxidation? You can't fix that. But just left it alone. At 1-1/2 years it was a totally different wine. Very well balanced. Tasty.
> I also have a Petite Pearl from grapes that after a year, an attempt at MLF and cold stabilizing, was still tart, almost sour. I asked on this forum and the response I got was "what's your hurry, it's only been 1 year.  After 1-1/2 years it has begun to round out a bit so gives me some hope.
> In my case I'm glad I didn't try to fix these early, because if it didn't improve, there would be no way of knowing if it failed because it was a loser all along or if it was my fix that screwed it up.
> One of the best suggestions I've been following is from @winemaker81. He always suggests tasting wines at various stages and writing down your impressions. It's been a great way for me to learn the changes that wines go through over time.


From my experience (a little over 2 years now) and almost 2000 bottles in, reds need time. Have a few left bottled late 2019, the early days of my wine making, WE French grape Cab and Ca Pinot Noir (the cheap kits!) and they are coming out great (by my taste), patience is a must with wine I have discovered.


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## Snafflebit (Apr 2, 2022)

I have purchased some Tannin Riche and glycerine and performed bench trials. The results are surprising.

First, my local wine supplier carries several Scott Labs products, including PVPP based Polycel. I may try that to remove bitterness if the other options fail to deliver the desired results. The store owner is a winemaker also. He previously used Tannin Complex but has also switched to Tannin Riche for cellaring tannin, saying he likes the results. Scott Labs also sells a sample kit of tannins for $140. It is tempting to purchase the kit but it is probably overkill for my needs. I only purchased Tannin Riche and glycerine to experiment on my 2016 Merlot.

The case of merlot bottles that I have easily accessible to test, as it turns out, is not bitter! That leads me to believe I am tasting seed tannins in some bottles. I probably have free run and press fraction cases not labeled or mixed together. Anyway, I decided to test the effects of cellaring tannins on this "good" merlot. I poured 4 glasses of wine and added Tannin Riche at 150ppm, 100ppm, 50ppm and 0ppm. Blind tasting showed that the wine is improved by the addition at all these levels. The main change in the wine I noticed is that tannin removed an off-odor in the merlot that I did not notice was present until it was eliminated. Then I noticed a mid-palate development of tannin that is pleasant. The wine is very fruity and the tannin helped balance the fruit. Even at 150ppm we did not think the tannin was unpleasant or overpowering, but Tannin Riche (French oak based) has a slight maple-y odor at high concentration. Eventually I could tell the higher levels of tannin were beginning to affect my palate and we decided on 50ppm as a good level. Still, I do not believe the wine would be ruined by higher amounts. I would not say that perceived sweetness increased, but a more balanced wine resulted, and the wine tasted higher quality.

Next I tested the merlot at a glycerine concentration of 0.4 and 0.8 oz./gal. I noticed increased vicosity and increased sweetness, but at a level that required comparison bench trials to appreciate the change. The flavor improvement using glycerine is less pronounced and I am not yet able to tell how glycerine will affect bitterness.

My conclusion is that Tannin Riche and glycerine additions together can improve my wines and I will gladly use them in the future. If I can graduate to barrels from carboys, maybe tannin additions will become unneccessary. I am very surprised by the elimination of off-odor. I am uncertain of the cause of this odor, it was slight. I will hazard a guess that it is mercaptan, maybe from extended lee contact.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 2, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I have purchased some Tannin Riche and glycerine and performed bench trials. The results are surprising.


Thanks for the detailed description.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 3, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I have purchased some Tannin Riche and glycerine and performed bench trials. The results are surprising.
> 
> First, my local wine supplier carries several Scott Labs products, including PVPP based Polycel. I may try that to remove bitterness if the other options fail to deliver the desired results. The store owner is a winemaker also. He previously used Tannin Complex but has also switched to Tannin Riche for cellaring tannin, saying he likes the results. Scott Labs also sells a sample kit of tannins for $140. It is tempting to purchase the kit but it is probably overkill for my needs. I only purchased Tannin Riche and glycerine to experiment on my 2016 Merlot.
> 
> ...



I think our findings were pretty much the same even though we used different but similar products. It was a toss up for me whether to use 75 or 100 ppm. I ended up using 100 ppm. My thought was it could possibly tame down with some additional aging. I'll play with glycerin prior to bottling since it doesn't require a waiting period. This whole thread has been very informative so thanks for posting.


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## VinesnBines (Apr 3, 2022)

Fred or anyone that would like to share the cost of Tannin Riche, I’m game. It looks like ordering may be limited to large quantities. I’m intrigued by your findings. I hadn’t thought of finishing tannins.


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## Ohio Bob (Apr 3, 2022)

Morewine.com sells an 18g packet of the Riche for $16.99. I placed an order for it yesterday.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 3, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> Morewine.com sells an 18g packet of the Riche for $16.99. I placed an order for it yesterday.



Bob, I believe Morewine only has Roche Extra which is derived from American oak, Riche is French oak.


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## Ohio Bob (Apr 3, 2022)

You are correct, I ordered the Extra, but didn’t write Extra. I should be more extra careful to write what I think.


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## wineview (Apr 4, 2022)

salcoco said:


> try a fining with clear gelatin found in the grocery store follow package directions


I’ve used plain Knox gelatin for beer. Never occurred to me to use it in wine. When do you make that addition?


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## heatherd (Apr 4, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> Now I am reading Scott Labs literature. They sell products with PVPP and casein, both of which are used to remove bitter phenols: Polycacel and Polycel. My local wine supply shop has several Scott products including Tannin Riche and maybe they have Polycel. According to Scott, the Polycel settles after a week and can be racked or filtered. Adding tannin is the easiest first step, I think.


I buy their stuff online so that I can get all of their vast array of products, as my local store may have a few but not all: Home | Scott Laboratories


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## heatherd (Apr 4, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I have looked into PVPP. I read that the wine should be filtered afterward and I am NOT excited about buying a filter pack.


Scott Labs website doesn't say anything about filtering, just to rack off the lees: Polycel (1kg) | Scott Laboratories


VinesnBines said:


> Fred or anyone that would like to share the cost of Tannin Riche, I’m game. It looks like ordering may be limited to large quantities. I’m intrigued by your findings. I hadn’t thought of finishing tannins.


It's not inexpensive at $153.00:





SCOTT’TAN™ RICHE (500 g) | Scott Laboratories







shop.scottlab.com


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## VinesnBines (Apr 4, 2022)

heatherd said:


> It's not inexpensive at $153.00:


Actually it isn't terribly priced if I had 1000 gallons; I'm a little short this year.


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## SLM (Oct 27, 2022)

I have 7 carboys of CS from last year's harvest. Tasted 2 days ago, so bitter I was ready to send them to the brandy factory. I came and read this thread for ideas. 
Using what I had in stock I tried sugar, egg whites, tannin riche extra and tannin complex. Tannin complex wins so far. After one day that nasty bitterness is greatly reduced. Will continue trials but I have hopes this wine will be salvageable.

Anyone else have positive results?


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## Timorthy (Oct 27, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> I am starting to get organized for bottling 2020 Cab and Merlot and did a sampling of carboys with friends. I noticed a bitterness on the back end of my wines that I did not seem to notice before. I guess that bitterness comes from seed tanins. I am fermenting on the skins to 1.004 SG, so almost to dry. I have recently learned that some winemakers press as high as 10 Brix. So, that is a technique I am considering for future vintages. But also I have 3 ounces of French oak cubes per carboy. I also use enological tannins. Do those create bitterness?


It is true, seed tannins can create bitterness to the wine. You can use Malic Acid along with your tannins to reduce the seed tannins. You can also try using 100% oak barrel for all your ferments, or at least for the ferment of the red grapes. This will help the wine not to create too many tannins.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 27, 2022)

@SLM tannins are a family of chemicals (polyphenols) which are reactive, the end point of which is that they get big enough to fall out of solution and are a deposit on the bottom of the bottle. 

Normal, is that the small molecules in ripe fruit have little flavor > these combine to produce a bitter molecule > the bitter molecules get larger and are precieved as astringent (mouth dehydrating/ protein complexing > growth continues till there aren’t enough hydrogen bonds to suspend the molecule in water.

Acid will normally magnify the flavor, as a test you can take 0.2 normal sodium hydroxide and bring the pH close to 7 or 6 and then taste the wine or juice to isolate the taste effect from the polyphenols and the acids.

Have you gone through the Scott Lab handbook to look at the choices? The bad news is that this is a family of molecules which are reactive and my answer at 36 months age may not be your answer at 15 months. Everything is taste to see what works.


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## CDrew (Oct 27, 2022)

@Snafflebit - I just read through this thread, and wanted to offer up a guess at the original problem. It may be the oak cubes. 3oz per 5 gallons is a huge amount, even though MoreWine would have you believe it;s normal. Instead, during your next vintage, make some of your wine with no oak and taste that. Make some with say 1 oz per gallon and a little bit with your usual 3 oz. Then compare. Oak is kind of a mixed blessing in my view, You need a little, but not enough to consciously taste oak. There is always the danger you will make Chateau Pliewood.

The other thing, and it's just a thought, you went to a bladder press do I remember? That may help along with a crusher that has rubber rollers. My fermentations routinely get to 80F or more, so I don't think the heat has a lot to do with it. The one time I had wine that I got around to liking was a large vintage of Primitivo in 2018, And that one I oaked at 2.5oz per 5 gallons. I still have that wine hoping it will calm down, but at 4+ years I can still taste a bitter almost campfire quality that I do not like. It's gotten better, but at this rate I'll have to drink it in 2030.

And the last thing I would do is add even more tannin to the picture. Maybe an eggwhite fine, but adding more tannin just risks more bad tastes.

Good luck. Maybe update with how things turned out in the end?


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## winemanden (Oct 27, 2022)

Not 100% sure, but I think the higher the acid, the more you notice the tannins, and the bitterness.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 27, 2022)

CDrew said:


> I just read through this thread, and wanted to offer up a guess at the original problem. It may be the oak cubes. 3oz per 5 gallons is a huge amount, even though MoreWine would have you believe it;s normal. Instead, during your next vintage, make some of your wine with no oak and taste that. Make some with say 1 oz per gallon and a little bit with your usual 3 oz. Then compare. Oak is kind of a mixed blessing in my view, You need a little, but not enough to consciously taste oak. There is always the danger you will make Chateau Pliewood.


CDrew is spot on -- 3 oz cubes in 5 gallons is a great way to make Chateau Pliewood (love that name, I'm keeping it!).

A heavy red can maybe handle 2 oz in 5 gallons, but I've dropped back to around 1-1/2 oz. Light reds get 1 oz, and if oaking a white, it gets 1/2 oz. When this year's wines go in barrel (54 liter / 14.25 US gallons), the Grenache is getting 3 oz and the Tempranillo is getting 4-1/2 oz.

Regarding your over-oaked wine -- try blending it into an unoaked wine in bench trials, e.g., 1/5, 1/4, or 1/3 Chateau Pliewood with other.


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## Snafflebit (Oct 27, 2022)

@CDrew Good call on the oak cubes. I have not figured out what is a good level of oak. I did not notice oak on the 2020 Cab wine at 1 oz./5gal. Someone recommended bumping it up because...reasons! lol
I did not notice a Tempranillo level of astringency from oak tannin before adding finishing tannins. This year (2022) I have seperated out free run from press fraction and also targeted 1 oz. of oak per 5 gallons

Now, I have to say that since using the Tannin Riche, the bitterness is gone, or practically gone. However, the grippiness of this added tannin has "bloomed" after sitting in bottle for a couple of months. I performed bench trials and targeted the level I liked, but the astringency has overshot the desired target. This astringency is MUCH preferred to bitter wine. The wine is now drinkable at least, but a bit "angular" and age may polish off the edge.

@Rice_Guy I love the idea of neutralizing the acid in the sample to taste what the phenol flavors are adding directly!


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## wineview (Oct 27, 2022)

CDrew said:


> @Snafflebit - I just read through this thread, and wanted to offer up a guess at the original problem. It may be the oak cubes. 3oz per 5 gallons is a huge amount, even though MoreWine would have you believe it;s normal. Instead, during your next vintage, make some of your wine with no oak and taste that. Make some with say 1 oz per gallon and a little bit with your usual 3 oz. Then compare. Oak is kind of a mixed blessing in my view, You need a little, but not enough to consciously taste oak. There is always the danger you will make Chateau Pliewood.
> 
> The other thing, and it's just a thought, you went to a bladder press do I remember? That may help along with a crusher that has rubber rollers. My fermentations routinely get to 80F or more, so I don't think the heat has a lot to do with it. The one time I had wine that I got around to liking was a large vintage of Primitivo in 2018, And that one I oaked at 2.5oz per 5 gallons. I still have that wine hoping it will calm down, but at 4+ years I can still taste a bitter almost campfire quality that I do not like. It's gotten better, but at this rate I'll have to drink it in 2030.
> 
> ...


What are these egg whites you speak of.


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## CDrew (Oct 27, 2022)

wineview said:


> What are these egg whites you speak of.



These guys explain better than I could!









Egg White Fining - WineMakerMag.com


An introduction to fining wine with egg whites.




winemakermag.com


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## CDrew (Oct 27, 2022)

Snafflebit said:


> @CDrew Good call on the oak cubes. I have not figured out what is a good level of oak. I did not notice oak on the 2020 Cab wine at 1 oz./5gal. Someone recommended bumping it up because...reasons! lol
> I did not notice a Tempranillo level of astringency from oak tannin before adding finishing tannins. This year (2022) I have seperated out free run from press fraction and also targeted 1 oz. of oak per 5 gallons
> 
> Now, I have to say that since using the Tannin Riche, the bitterness is gone, or practically gone. However, the grippiness of this added tannin has "bloomed" after sitting in bottle for a couple of months. I performed bench trials and targeted the level I liked, but the astringency has overshot the desired target. This astringency is MUCH preferred to bitter wine. The wine is now drinkable at least, but a bit "angular" and age may polish off the edge.
> ...



I look at it like this. Grape wine from grapes, is good with NO OAK. So make sure you are improving it with oak, not using oak because you are " supposed to". I have come to max out at roughly 1 oz of cubes per 5 gallons of wine. Less is OK, you can always add more.

And for high powered wines like Syrah or Cabernet, they can take a bit more oak, but for less robust wines, less oak is better. Really, try it out. For less robust wines like Zinfandel or Primitivo less is more. Much less.


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