# Barrel thoughts



## pgentile

Going to treat and process my new hungarian barrel(thanks @mainshipfred) this weekend. Read quite a bit and have no issue with getting the barrel ready. (Yet)

First wine in the barrel is going to be a sauvignon blanc. I know some wouldn't oak this but my oaked sauv blanc from last year was a hit and I want to try and repeat. It was 3 months on 4 oz med american oak chips. 

The initial wine in the barrel will get a lot of oak, so this wine is going to need to kiss the barrel just right before over oaking it.

How often, once in barrel, do you think I should taste this? Daily? Weekly? Wait a few weeks then taste?


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## Johnd

pgentile said:


> Going to treat and process my new hungarian barrel(thanks @mainshipfred) this weekend. Read quite a bit and have no issue with getting the barrel ready. (Yet)
> 
> First wine in the barrel is going to be a sauvignon blanc. I know some wouldn't oak this but my oaked sauv blanc from last year was a hit and I want to try and repeat. It was 3 months on 4 oz med american oak chips.
> 
> The initial wine in the barrel will get a lot of oak, so this wine is going to need to kiss the barrel just right before over oaking it.
> 
> How often, once in barrel, do you think I should taste this? Daily? Weekly? Wait a few weeks then taste?



You could probably over oak that wine in just a few weeks, so after the first few days, you should taste it frequently, like every other day.


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## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> Going to treat and process my new hungarian barrel(thanks @mainshipfred) this weekend. Read quite a bit and have no issue with getting the barrel ready. (Yet)



Each place I look up New barrel prep all have different procedures. 

There’s the cold water soak. 
The hot water soak. 
Timelines range a lot. 
Some call for sanitizer solution soak. Others don’t. 
What’s your plan of action- and is there really any “wrong way” as long as you swell the oak and seal any leaks?


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Each place I look up New barrel prep all have different procedures.
> 
> There’s the cold water soak.
> The hot water soak.
> Timelines range a lot.
> Some call for sanitizer solution soak. Others don’t.
> What’s your plan of action- and is there really any “wrong way” as long as you swell the oak and seal any leaks?



I’ve always filled the barrel 1/2 full with near boiling water, stood it on end and soaked each head for half hour. Rolled it around so the hot water contacts all parts inside. After 4 hours, fill with water and a bit of sulfite for a few days to check for leaks. Dump and fill.


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## NorCal

You didn’t say what size barrel, which has a big influence on the amount of oaking. Assuming it’s a small format barrel, I would split the difference between daily and weekly.


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## pgentile

Johnd said:


> You could probably over oak that wine in just a few weeks, so after the first few days, you should taste it frequently, like every other day.



Thanks, that's what I thought.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Each place I look up New barrel prep all have different procedures.
> 
> There’s the cold water soak.
> The hot water soak.
> Timelines range a lot.
> Some call for sanitizer solution soak. Others don’t.
> What’s your plan of action- and is there really any “wrong way” as long as you swell the oak and seal any leaks?



I'm thinking of going with the hot soak, seems to be the most common. Bigger barrels in the future probably cold. On the femce about the sanitizing part. kmeta & Citric?


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## pgentile

NorCal said:


> You didn’t say what size barrel, which has a big influence on the amount of oaking. Assuming it’s a small format barrel, I would split the difference between daily and weekly.



it's a micro barrel, 23l(6gl). From another discussion about barrels, small barrels oak faster?


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> it's a micro barrel, 23l(6gl). From another discussion about barrels, small barrels oak faster?



Paul, it's a 30 liter 8 gallon. Just to chime in on prep here's what I just did:
Tighten the hoops
Hose down the outside of the barrel.
Put hot tap water on the outside of the head 15 - 20 minutes, flip and do the other side.
Fill the barrel with hot tap water enough so it doesn't come out of the bung hole when turned on it's side.
Stand the barrel on each side for 30 minutes or so.
Add K-meta and citric acid and fill the barrel. 
This was done around 5pm and when I returned the next day the barrel was dry. 
Drained and racked the wine. 
I Might be biased but these are quality barrels the hoops sometime come loose in transport but once tightened they seal really quickly.


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## pgentile

I don't why i thought is was 23l, the 30l is perfect then.

Looks like a plan to follow Fred. This saturday will be the day.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I don't why i thought is was 23l, the 30l is perfect then.
> 
> Looks like a plan to follow Fred. This saturday will be the day.



I think the 30 is good size for 4 lugs or more. If things go as I hope I'll be able to fill the barrel and have about a gallon for topping off. Didn't realize you thought you were getting a 23.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I think the 30 is good size for 4 lugs or more. If things go as I hope I'll be able to fill the barrel and have about a gallon for topping off. Didn't realize you thought you were getting a 23.



I just forgot, but that's why I did 2 four lug batches last week. Many numbers and specs in my life, they get a little fuzzy sometimes.


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## tjgaul

pgentile said:


> First wine in the barrel is going to be a sauvignon blanc. I know some wouldn't oak this but my oaked sauv blanc from last year was a hit and I want to try and repeat. It was 3 months on 4 oz med american oak chips.



I have not gotten to the barrel stage yet, but the ratio of oak to wine in a 30L barrel is going to be w a a a a a y more than 4oz. of cubes in 6 gal. I'd be real careful about leaving it in very long. Of course, tasting frequently is never a bad thing. 

Good luck . . . I hope it comes out grand.


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## pgentile

tjgaul said:


> I have not gotten to the barrel stage yet, but the ratio of oak to wine in a 30L barrel is going to be w a a a a a y more than 4oz. of cubes in 6 gal. I'd be real careful about leaving it in very long. Of course, tasting frequently is never a bad thing.
> 
> Good luck . . . I hope it comes out grand.



Hence my comment "kiss the barrel just right". Thanks me too!


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Hence my comment "kiss the barrel just right". Thanks me too!



I didn't think ahead or couldn't wait, probably the latter but all mine have red in them. Guess I'll just have to use spirals for the Sauv Blanc.


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## Ajmassa

So if Sauv Blanc were to be the 2nd or 3rd wine in the barrel then the color would would darken or take on an orangey tint I assume? And also any malo bacteria hanging out inside. So gotta be #1. 
Playing with fire Paul. I’d think ya need to monitor daily with the virgin oak. And a week might do the trick. Unfortunately you won’t be utilizing any aging benefits. 
Good luck. Hope you get another winner.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> So if Sauv Blanc were to be the 2nd or 3rd wine in the barrel then the color would would darken or take on an orangey tint I assume? And also any malo bacteria hanging out inside. So gotta be #1.



Yes on both, but more the malo bact. 




Ajmassa5983 said:


> Playing with fire Paul. I’d think ya need to monitor daily with the virgin oak. And a week might do the trick. Unfortunately you won’t be utilizing any aging benefits. Good luck. Hope you get another winner.



Thanks, I'm ready for the challenge


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## pgentile

Did the hot water treatment this morning. Soaking with cold water now for 24 hours. Sauvignon Blanc goes in tomorrow. No turning back now. Pinotage is up second, then Carmanere/Malbec, then probably Petite Sirah for the final long soak before neutral. But that's a loose plan at this point. First lets see how long it takes for the sauv blanc to have enough oak.


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## pgentile

The hoops all moved about 1/8" when tightening. Only two stave seams seeped initially. Zero so far on the cold soak.


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## mainshipfred

I'm curious about the oak on the Sauv Blanc as well. I thought they were already smooching.


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## baron4406

Last year's Syrah is in mine now, just to break it in. Not worried about over oaking since it disappears after about a year in the bottle. About to pitch the yeast on my batch of Petit Syrah grapes. I did have to tighten the rings but it sealed really fast, I used boiling (near boiling) water using the pasteurization theory. My wife told me "you need more of them". For once, I agree lol


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## mainshipfred

My wife told me "you need more of them". For once, I agree lol[/QUOTE]

Tell Corrine I said you have a really nice wife.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I'm curious about the oak on the Sauv Blanc as well. I thought they were already smooching.



I was getting ahead of myself thinking I could get it done the previous two weekends. But kissing will commence tomorrow.


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## Ajmassa

What would be negatives from prepping a new barrel, dumping out the sanitizer solution, all ready for wine, plugged up with a solid bung- and then not filled up for about a week?

*asking for a friend


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> What would be negatives from prepping a new barrel, dumping out the sanitizer solution, all ready for wine, plugged up with a solid bung- and then not filled up for about a week?
> 
> *asking for a friend



If you do have a leak that needs action, you’re bleeding wine instead of water.


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## Ajmassa

When emptied a week ago it was all swelled up and no leaks at all. Been sitting dry for a week. Spritzed some kmeta in a few times. Just haven’t had time to fill it up. 

Will fill with water again to check before filling with wine. 

But sitting dry for a week- no biggie right?


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> When emptied a week ago it was all swelled up and no leaks at all. Been sitting dry for a week. Spritzed some kmeta in a few times. Just haven’t had time to fill it up.
> 
> Will fill with water again to check before filling with wine.
> 
> But sitting dry for a week- no biggie right?



Probably not, but better safe than sorry. Fill with water, add meta/citric, let it sit in there til you fill it with wine.


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## Ajmassa

Johnd said:


> Probably not, but better safe than sorry. Fill with water, add meta/citric, let it sit in there til you fill it with wine.



Much obliged


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> When emptied a week ago it was all swelled up and no leaks at all. Been sitting dry for a week. Spritzed some kmeta in a few times. Just haven’t had time to fill it up.
> 
> Will fill with water again to check before filling with wine.
> 
> But sitting dry for a week- no biggie right?



You might want to consider sulfite sticks in case you ever run into the problem again. I should have brought you some. They are really cheap though. Commercial wineries use them all the time.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> When emptied a week ago it was all swelled up and no leaks at all. Been sitting dry for a week. Spritzed some kmeta in a few times. Just haven’t had time to fill it up.
> 
> Will fill with water again to check before filling with wine.
> 
> But sitting dry for a week- no biggie right?



I almost did the same thing but held off, the sauv blanc is in the barrel as of 3pm this afternoon.


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## Johnd

mainshipfred said:


> You might want to consider sulfite sticks in case you ever run into the problem again. I should have brought you some. They are really cheap though. Commercial wineries use them all the time.



Sulfur sticks and steam seem to be the two weapons of choice at the wineries. If I had steam generating capabilities, that’d be the route I’d go for barrel prep and sanitizing.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> You might want to consider sulfite sticks in case you ever run into the problem again. I should have brought you some. They are really cheap though. Commercial wineries use them all the time.



Thanks man. I knew the options for barrel storage w/o wine. The main reason for my question was because it was not planned to be empty for a week. If I knew it wasn’t gonna be filled I’d have handled appropriately.  
My only concern/question now- after the fact- is if there are any problems with simply filling with sanitizer again before filling with wine. 

* I tend to act on impulse often.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Thanks man. I knew the options for barrel storage w/o wine. The main reason for my question was because it was not planned to be empty for a week. If I knew it wasn’t gonna be filled I’d have handled appropriately.
> My only concern/question now- after the fact- is if there are any problems with simply filling with sanitizer again before filling with wine.
> 
> * I tend to act on impulse often.



I can't see any reason why not. It's still a new barrel and would save you a weeks worth of oak.


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## pgentile

Savignon blanc has been in the new barrel 10 days now. Going to give a taste tomorrow.

Read through some of the barrel info out there. morewinemaking.com and some others. But not sure what to do when racking out one wine and then in another.

Should I treat the barrel like a carboy and rinse out lees and treat with kmeta/citric solution? One site had a reference to clean after every other wine.

Pinotage is up next.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Savignon blanc has been in the new barrel 10 days now. Going to give a taste tomorrow.
> 
> Read through some of the barrel info out there. morewinemaking.com and some others. But not sure what to do when racking out one wine and then in another.
> 
> Should I treat the barrel like a carboy and rinse out lees and treat with kmeta/citric solution? One site had a reference to clean after every other wine.
> 
> Pinotage is up next.



I've always heard if ones coming out an one going in all thats necessary is to rinse out the lees.


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## Johnd

That’s all I’ve ever done, rinse / flush a couple times and fill it back up.


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## Boatboy24

pgentile said:


> Savignon blanc has been in the new barrel 10 days now. Going to give a taste tomorrow.
> 
> Read through some of the barrel info out there. morewinemaking.com and some others. But not sure what to do when racking out one wine and then in another.
> 
> Should I treat the barrel like a carboy and rinse out lees and treat with kmeta/citric solution? One site had a reference to clean after every other wine.
> 
> Pinotage is up next.



I just rinse it out with very hot tap water.


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## pgentile

Thanks all, that is what I figured, just wanted to double check being a barrel virgin and all.


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## pgentile

After 14 days in new barrel sauvignon blanc is definately needing a little more oak. Going to leave another week and sample again. Maybe two.


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## Ajmassa

I’m gonna tag along on this misc barrel convo. 

1. How high are we supposed to be filling barrels? Leaving a hair of headspace? Logic tells me as little as possible. I filled it to the bung-essentially zero headspace. But now I find myself cleaning up overflow each day since I filled it. 
Pressure changes I assume. Is this pretty common?

2. also I had the barrel filled with Kmeta/citric water twice/ maybe 10’days in total. No leaks after the first day. But I’ve got wine seeping out in one spot at the bottom of the head. Hoping this works itself out. Also normal?


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## Johnd

I top mine to the tippy top, using waterless vented silicone bungs. Just encircle the bung with a towel and push it in place, towel catches the overspill. Spritz with sulfite sprayer and it’s nice and clean.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’m gonna tag along on this misc barrel convo.
> 
> 1. How high are we supposed to be filling barrels? Leaving a hair of headspace? Logic tells me as little as possible. I filled it to the bung-essentially zero headspace. But now I find myself cleaning up overflow each day since I filled it.
> Pressure changes I assume. Is this pretty common?
> 
> 2. also I had the barrel filled with Kmeta/citric water twice/ maybe 10’days in total. No leaks after the first day. But I’ve got wine seeping out in one spot at the bottom of the head. Hoping this works itself out. Also normal?
> 
> View attachment 51507



1. I had the same thing the first few days. Stopped after three or four days. 

2. How many days is wine in barrel now? My bet is it works itself out. But if it doesn't here's a link from 5 years ago and quote from @ibglowin on how to deal with a leak "So get some canning wax and warm it up, spray the leaks down good with KMETA and wipe off the wine, then hit it with the wax good where it leaks. It may take a couple of times to get it sealed good but it will seal if you keep adding wax to the drip area. A small barrel leaks more than a big barrel so its just part of the process but it will be very worth it in the end I promise."

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/5-months-in-my-barrel-has-started-leaking.38227/


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## mainshipfred

If it doesn't stop you might want to try tightening the hoops again. BTW, my barrels look like yours but it's from not being careful when filling.


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## Ajmassa

Reading thru the thread Paul posted, and then another I kinda got lost on the barrel research. 
Pretty interesting stuff. For a stubborn leak the repair is actually pretty simple. Same idea as plugging your tire. 
-find the source of leak
-ream it slightly with an awl
-punch in the wooden cone shaped “spile” plug 
(Easily widdle your own plug with a golf tee or wood chip)

And in my multi level ADD style barrel research I watched that video again of the guy (and wmt member) re-cooping his own barrel at home. 
Unless I meet my maker earlier then expected I don’t see myself ever NOT attempting that one day.
Recondition and toasting a used barrel
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?threads/Recondition-and-toasting-a-used-barrel.55886/


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## baron4406

My Syrah hit one month in the barrel , just tasted it and its fine and it does look like the level is down a tad. Gonna shot for two months then the next batch goes in. I'm wondering where to go with it when its done, I'd like to bottle age it for a year but finding a 6.6 gallon carboy is kinda tough. Also plan on filtering it also before bottling.


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## FTC Wines

AJ, I top off to almost the bung hole, then push in the silicon bung. Never had wine oze out after the bung was pushed in. But we only put stabilized wine into our barrels, not fermenting wine. As to wine leaking, I have prepped a barrel with no leaks, then when I put the wine in I had a slight leak. But bees wax always stopped it. Roy


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## Ajmassa

Thanks Roy. Yep the wax seems like the 1st step to take if needed. It’s only been filled with wine a few days now. Time will tell. 
Need to find a vented #9 bung. It’s an odd size. Carboys #7 and demis are #11. Only vessel have that size is a 34L demi. But only have solid and drilled. 
Baron- the 6.5’s are hassle aint they? Never in store. Only one I scored was from Craigslist. Why not just fill a 6 and bottle a couple?


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## FTC Wines

AJ, I got my vented, no s trap needed bung, and solid bungs from Vadi. Also got a 2 hole bung from Steve, Vacuum Pump man, so I can vac rack into the barrel using the lowest vac as possible. So they should be available. Roy


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## Ajmassa

FTC Wines said:


> AJ, I got my vented, no s trap needed bung, and solid bungs from Vadi. Also got a 2 hole bung from Steve, Vacuum Pump man, so I can vac rack into the barrel using the lowest vac as possible. So they should be available. Roy



Fortunately I had a couple drilled #9’s. (Things like bungs and airlocka I always buy more than needed for these situations). Sacrificed one for the AI1 and drilled another hole for it. 
I’ll check out Vadai’s website and see what they got. Thanks


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## baron4406

My first barrel "top off" with the 30l I picked up from Fred at our barrel meet up, wells its working! I had to add nearly a whole bottle of wine which is a great evaporation rate. another month then filter-bottle and bottle age for a year


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## mainshipfred

baron4406 said:


> My first barrel "top off" with the 30l I picked up from Fred at our barrel meet up, wells its working! I had to add nearly a whole bottle of wine which is a great evaporation rate. another month then filter-bottle and bottle age for a year



Yours is a 25l but holding closer to 7 gallons. Are you getting any oak yet? I filled mine 9-1 and I noticed it started giving some nice oak a couple of weeks ago. I think I have another month to go.


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## baron4406

oh ok thanks Fred. I noticed a little oak taste, so I'm gonna let in another month. Then next batch 10 weeks, then 12 weeks for the next batch. I think 12 weeks is the limit for this small barrel even after its neutral


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## Johnd

baron4406 said:


> oh ok thanks Fred. I noticed a little oak taste, so I'm gonna let in another month. Then next batch 10 weeks, then 12 weeks for the next batch. I think 12 weeks is the limit for this small barrel even after its neutral



I leave all my red wines in my neutral 6 gallon Vadai barrels for 6 months.


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## baron4406

Really John? Well then I'll be doing the same. THANKS


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## mainshipfred

I'm still getting the feel for how long the wine should stay in the barrels. I still think the one week per gallon for a new barrel is on the side of caution. As far as neutral I agree with John and not sure if time matters. FWIW I just saw a wine maker coat a portion of his new barrels with something but don't remember what he said it was. His reasoning was it slows down evaporation. He may coat the belly and one head or some other portions. He told me it slows down but doesn't stop mirco oxygenation. Again he's a commercial guy with large barrrels and it's his procedure. Just sharing.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> I'm still getting the feel for how long the wine should stay in the barrels. I still think the one week per gallon for a new barrel is on the side of caution. As far as neutral I agree with John and not sure if time matters. FWIW I just saw a wine maker coat a portion of his new barrels with something but don't remember what he said it was. His reasoning was it slows down evaporation. He may coat the belly and one head or some other portions. He told me it slows down but doesn't stop mirco oxygenation. Again he's a commercial guy with large barrrels and it's his procedure. Just sharing.



Wasn't wax he was coating it with?

BTW tasted the sauv blanc today at 24 day it has a smidge of too much oak. Going one more week then pulling it. Pinotage up next.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Wasn't wax he was coating it with?
> 
> BTW tasted the sauv blanc today at 24 day it has a smidge of too much oak. Going one more week then pulling it. Pinotage up next.



Could have been but I don't think so. It was a real thin coat of whatever it was. 

Sunday will be 7 weeks for me but I think Cab and Malbec can take a little more oak then the Sauv Blanc. Been asking a lot of questions to the winemaker while helping with the crush and pressing. Another thing he told me was not to let the Sauv Blanc clear until a month before bottling. He told me to stir up the lees twice a week until then when I wanted to let it clear add Bentonite and put it in the freezer at 28* for a month, filter and bottle. His timeframe was 9 months. I know it's one winemakers opinion but if I'm going to try to make commercial grade wine I think I'll try doing as he recommends. I'm already going to let the MLF in the reds go for his 4-5 month recommendation on the fine lees.

BTW, not on the right thread but yesterday we crushed 17 tons and pressed 9 T bins with 3 people. I went from grunt to grunt, enzyme and labeling guy.


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## stickman

The old school barrel coating is boiled linseed oil, reportedly it doesn't affect micro oxygenation. The other typical coating is mildewcide.


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## mainshipfred

That is exactly what he said he used, O'Sullivan's Mildewcide. I think all he said was O'Sullivan's. Good one.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Could have been but I don't think so. It was a real thin coat of whatever it was.
> 
> Sunday will be 7 weeks for me but I think Cab and Malbec can take a little more oak then the Sauv Blanc. Been asking a lot of questions to the winemaker while helping with the crush and pressing. Another thing he told me was not to let the Sauv Blanc clear until a month before bottling. He told me to stir up the lees twice a week until then when I wanted to let it clear add Bentonite and put it in the freezer at 28* for a month, filter and bottle. His timeframe was 9 months. I know it's one winemakers opinion but if I'm going to try to make commercial grade wine I think I'll try doing as he recommends. I'm already going to let the MLF in the reds go for his 4-5 month recommendation on the fine lees.
> 
> BTW, not on the right thread but yesterday we crushed 17 tons and pressed 9 T bins with 3 people. I went from grunt to grunt, enzyme and labeling guy.



Isn't stirring up the lees called 'sur lie"? haven't tried that yet with my whites. Bentonite, freeze and filter? 

How much wine did you get out of 26 total tons? Enzyme guy huh?


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Isn't stirring up the lees called 'sur lie"? haven't tried that yet with my whites. Bentonite, freeze and filter?
> 
> How much wine did you get out of 26 total tons? Enzyme guy huh?



Again no expert but I thought sur lie was aged on the lees but maybe not heavily filtered. The limited sur lie I've ever had had lees in the bottle. 

Don't know how much wine. The crush went to T bins and the press went to SS tanks. I'll tell you what is amazing though is how dry the skins are after being pressed, rotated and pressed multiple times in a horizontal bladder press.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Again no expert but I thought sur lie was aged on the lees but maybe not heavily filtered. The limited sur lie I've ever had had lees in the bottle.
> 
> Don't know how much wine. The crush went to T bins and the press went to SS tanks. I'll tell you what is amazing though is how dry the skins are after being pressed, rotated and pressed multiple times in a horizontal bladder press.



Sur lie is typically done while routinely performing battonage throughout (according to wiki). Otherwise not really getting all the benefits of keeping the lees. Tho seems like tough thing to master to know when enough is enough. From what I’ve read you just stop when you notice any unpleasant aroma or tastes.


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## Ajmassa

I used some beeswax a few days ago to try and stop the leaky barrel. What’s happening now is the wine is just finding different exit point around where the head meets the staves. Bubbling up the wax and eventually still leaking out. 
I’m not too concerned tho. I’m gonna tighten the hell out of the rings- clean out all the gunk, plug any visible holes if any, and then coat with a protectant. Not sure which one yet. Piwines sells the Mildewcide btw


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## pgentile

Ah yes, you guys are correct, read about these processes several years ago. Couldn't remember which was which. Battonage

So far no long term leakage with the barrel here, little seepage in the beginning but seemed resolved itself.


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## Ajmassa

Certain days this thing had wine seaping out in multiple spots. >6 diff spots maybe. Tough to tell on the heads since it runs down and puddles up at the bottom. 
Between the beeswax and tightening the rings I think I got it. I tightened the SH*T outta them too. Not an easy thing on a full barrel. 
Had the bright idea to put a solid stopper on so Nothing spilled. When tapping down the rings (and I had to really hit em hard) I didn’t think about the co2 releasing as a byproduct. That stopper shot out like a freaking bullet! Sprayed wine just about everywhere.


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## FTC Wines

My Malbec in a 40L barrel keeps expanding into the airlock. Back story, new Vidai barrel, 3 day prep their instructions had a few small damp spots, so put sulfite & citric acid per their instructions for another 5 days. Still had damp spots, no real leaks but knew the wine would seep out. So I bees waxed the spots and put water back in for 3 more days. No leaks or dampness. So I put the Malbec in. But now 3 days in A row I’m getting wine pushed up Into the air lock. Wine was sg .996 when I added the MLF 8 days ago, 1 day after pressing. Don’t see any bubbles in air lock. Anyone have an idea what’s going on? Temp is 69* and has been since pressing.


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## whackfol

Batonnage (with a caret over the first a) is the stirring

sur lie is just on the lees


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## stickman

@FTC Wines Wood provides nucleation sites for CO2 bubbles to form, so you probably have bubbles clinging to the inside of the barrel taking up some volume. Leave a little extra headspace until ML is complete and CO2 content drops.


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## Ajmassa

Hitting a snag in my search for vented silicon bungs for barrels. #9. And Vadai’s website is a hot mess. 

If anyone has an online source could you please share the link? Thanks


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## pgentile

https://morewinemaking.com/products/silicone-bung-small-barrel-breathable.html


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## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> https://morewinemaking.com/products/silicone-bung-small-barrel-breathable.html



Right on morewine. I’ll be damned. Thanks man.


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## pgentile

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Right on morewine. I’ll be damned. Thanks man.


You got it dude


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## FTC Wines

Thanks Stickman, I did lower the volume a little, so far so good. It made a mess of my new barrel though. Roy


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## pgentile

Sauvignon Blanc is out of the barrel and Pinotage is in. The sauv blanc is over oaked at this point, hoping in six months or so the oak will subside a bit and balance out.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Sauvignon Blanc is out of the barrel and Pinotage is in. The sauv blanc is over oaked at this point, hoping in six months or so the oak will subside a bit and balance out.



Was the over oaking intentional? I thought I remember you saying it was.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Was the over oaking intentional? I thought I remember you saying it was.



Yes it was sir.


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## Ajmassa

Love the confidence


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## mainshipfred

Note to self, when making final adjustments prior to bottling don't add everything at once. I just added the mid range recommendation of Tannin Complex and Tannin Rouge EX plus a small pack of Heavy toast french chips 2 weeks prior to bottling the Norton. This is going to have to sit for a while.


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Note to self, when making final adjustments prior to bottling don't add everything at once. I just added the mid range recommendation of Tannin Complex and Tannin Rouge EX plus a small pack of Heavy toast french chips 2 weeks prior to bottling the Norton. This is going to have to sit for a while.


I have Tannin Rouge sitting in my frig for several months, still haven't used it.

Your late tannin additions is the second lesson I have learned this week from someone else. First was never tighten barrel rings when barrel is filled with non de-gassed wine with a solid bung.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> I have Tannin Rouge sitting in my frig for several months, still haven't used it.
> 
> Your late tannin additions is the second lesson I have learned this week from someone else. First was never tighten barrel rings when barrel is filled with non de-gassed wine with a solid bung.



Brother ain't that the truth. I have an ever so slight leak in one of my barrels. No liquid just a slight stain at the seam of the head. Thanks to AJ I'm letting it go until I do a tranfers.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Brother ain't that the truth. I have an ever so slight leak in one of my barrels. No liquid just a slight stain at the seam of the head. Thanks to AJ I'm letting it go until I do a tranfers.



Na I’m glad I did it. Was necessary. The solid bung popped off on the 1st ring. I replaced with an airlocked bung with a tiny bit of water. Proceeded to tighten all the rings up to even 1/2” without issue. But leaks were substantial. I wasn’t even counting stains as leaks


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## crushday

pgentile said:


> Sauvignon Blanc goes in tomorrow. No turning back now. Pinotage is up second, then Carmanere/Malbec, then probably Petite Sirah for the final long soak



Just wondering how this went and if you're happy with the results. I'm starting a similar process today with similar sized barrels. The variances are: 6.1 gal Hungarian oak barrels with first wine being a Negroamaro, second will be a Pinot Noir, third will be a Zinfandel and fourth will be a Merlot.


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## pgentile

George Burgin said:


> Just wondering how this went and if you're happy with the results. I'm starting a similar process today with similar sized barrels. The variances are: 6.1 gal Hungarian oak barrels with first wine being a Negroamaro, second will be a Pinot Noir, third will be a Zinfandel and fourth will be a Merlot.


So far the sauv blanc is out of the barrel two weeks, sightly over oaked, but after 6 months or so hoping it fades a bit. Pinotage is in the barrel now, will taste in another few weeks.


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## baron4406

Just tasted my Syrah in the 25l barrel i got from Fred. Been 6 weeks and still not too oaky, I might stretch it to 9 weeks then filter/bottle and jump right into the Petit Syrah for around 12 weeks. Again if you gonna bottle age don't worry about over oaking. That mixed black I brought to our get together was so over oaked last fall it was almost undrinkable. After 9 month in the bottle you couldn't taste any oak. I was gonna take the Syrah out earlier but forgot to add Tannin Riche so I added it and they say wait three weeks.


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## mainshipfred

baron4406 said:


> Just tasted my Syrah in the 25l barrel i got from Fred. Been 6 weeks and still not too oaky, I might stretch it to 9 weeks then filter/bottle and jump right into the Petit Syrah for around 12 weeks. Again if you gonna bottle age don't worry about over oaking. That mixed black I brought to our get together was so over oaked last fall it was almost undrinkable. After 9 month in the bottle you couldn't taste any oak. I was gonna take the Syrah out earlier but forgot to add Tannin Riche so I added it and they say wait three weeks.



The mixed black was very nice, probably will be on my list for next year. Beside the Petit Syrah what else do you have to go in.


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## David A. Day

pgentile said:


> Going to treat and process my new hungarian barrel(thanks @mainshipfred) this weekend. Read quite a bit and have no issue with getting the barrel ready. (Yet)
> 
> First wine in the barrel is going to be a sauvignon blanc. I know some wouldn't oak this but my oaked sauv blanc from last year was a hit and I want to try and repeat. It was 3 months on 4 oz med american oak chips.
> 
> The initial wine in the barrel will get a lot of oak, so this wine is going to need to kiss the barrel just right before over oaking it.
> 
> How often, once in barrel, do you think I should taste this? Daily? Weekly? Wait a few weeks then taste?


I would be very careful with the smaller barrel. They have a tendency to over oak very fast. In the future, I would try using oak alternatives to add the kiss of oak with out overly powerful oak.
Also, make sure that the water you are using does not contain chlorine. This can give birth to TCA.
Any questions about oak, feel free to ask. I work for a cooperage and have years of wine making experience.
Good luck.


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## Johnd

David A. Day said:


> I would be very careful with the smaller barrel. They have a tendency to over oak very fast. In the future, I would try using oak alternatives to add the kiss of oak with out overly powerful oak.
> Also, make sure that the water you are using does not contain chlorine. This can give birth to TCA.
> Any questions about oak, feel free to ask. I work for a cooperage and have years of wine making experience.
> Good luck.



What cooperage do you work for, if you don't mind me asking???


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## pgentile

baron4406 said:


> Just tasted my Syrah in the 25l barrel i got from Fred. Been 6 weeks and still not too oaky, I might stretch it to 9 weeks then filter/bottle and jump right into the Petit Syrah for around 12 weeks. Again if you gonna bottle age don't worry about over oaking. That mixed black I brought to our get together was so over oaked last fall it was almost undrinkable. After 9 month in the bottle you couldn't taste any oak. I was gonna take the Syrah out earlier but forgot to add Tannin Riche so I added it and they say wait three weeks.



I still haven't seen mixed black grapes offered anywhere here in Philly or SJ. 

Think I got the sauv blanc just right, slightly over oaked. In six months it shouldn't be, hopefully.

I have Pinotage in the barrel now will taste in another 4 weeks or so.


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## pgentile

David A. Day said:


> I would be very careful with the smaller barrel. They have a tendency to over oak very fast. In the future, I would try using oak alternatives to add the kiss of oak with out overly powerful oak.
> Also, make sure that the water you are using does not contain chlorine. This can give birth to TCA.
> Any questions about oak, feel free to ask. I work for a cooperage and have years of wine making experience.
> Good luck.


Thanks for the heads up.


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## David A. Day

Johnd said:


> What cooperage do you work for, if you don't mind me asking???


I work for Canton Cooperage. We are based out of Kentucky and are part of the Chene & Cie group.


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## crushday

David A. Day said:


> I would be very careful with the smaller barrel. They have a tendency to over oak very fast. In the future, I would try using oak alternatives to add the kiss of oak with out overly powerful oak.
> Also, make sure that the water you are using does not contain chlorine. This can give birth to TCA.
> Any questions about oak, feel free to ask. I work for a cooperage and have years of wine making experience.
> Good luck.


Thanks for the info and warnings!!


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## Ajmassa

Couple more barrel questions. 
1.— regarding the vented bungs, once the co2 has released from the wine, is there any reason not to use solid bungs as I’ve been?? With the evaporation rate it doesn’t seem like it would be an issue. 
2. Does a sample straight from the barrel give an accurate example of the wine? I’ve got an 8 gal barrel filled for +10wks now. And it’s too much oak. (The wine was fantastic before any oak). I know oak fades in time, but is there an initial quick oak drop off once removed from the barrel? 
I know I could just wait to make a decision, but I want to keep the barrel filled. Just gotta decide what’s goin in!


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## David A. Day

A sample straight from the barrel is what the wine is. Straight forward.The main problem with small barrel, is they will almost always over oak your wines. There is a small amount of wine for the surface area. It will drop after time, but not much. If you are only making these small lots of wine, I would think about oaking with adjuncts in carboys. Using Xoakers( little toasted oak balls) is what I think would be the best for your wine.I am not a fan of small barrels. Their impact is so crazy strong.
I would move towards a solid silicone bung. Fermenting bungs should really only be used for primary and secondary fermentation.


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## Johnd

1. Vented bungs - I use them in my small barrels because I don''t like the wooden bungs that came with the barrels. On my large barrels, which came with solid silicone bungs, the wine still releases its CO2 just fine, the barrel is porous enough to not inhibit that part of the process, and as you stated, with evaporation, there's almost always a little empty space in there between top ups.

2. I've found that when I've pulled the wine out just when I think the oak is perfect, it drops off a bit in bottle aging and wish it'd sat a bit longer. Just be vigilant on your smaller barrels that you don't overdo the oak. Once they're neutral, you still get all of the great microx and concentration effects, plus you'll have more control over the type and quantity of oak you desire. I've personally gravitated to the Fr M+ Wine Stix for the oak flavoring.


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## mainshipfred

David A. Day said:


> A sample straight from the barrel is what the wine is. Straight forward.The main problem with small barrel, is they will almost always over oak your wines. There is a small amount of wine for the surface area. It will drop after time, but not much. If you are only making these small lots of wine, I would think about oaking with adjuncts in carboys. Using Xoakers( little toasted oak balls) is what I think would be the best for your wine.I am not a fan of small barrels. Their impact is so crazy strong.
> I would move towards a solid silicone bung. Fermenting bungs should really only be used for primary and secondary fermentation.



David, with all due respect and I'll try to word this as politely as possible, most if not all of us who use barrels are aware of the consequences of over oaking with new small barrels. You are entitled to your preference to use them or not, however, those of us that do use barrels find it benefits our wines. I looked at the Canton Barrel website and it appears they make a quality product but limited to the commercial sizes. It also appears you are promoting the only product your company sells that is of any interest to the home winemaker. While you are not directly selling them you're probably getting close to crossing the line without being a sponsor. I would think if Canton sold small barrels that were affordable to the home winemaker you comments might be a little different.


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## Ajmassa

From week 8 to 10 the change was way more than I anticipated. I do have 20 total gallons of this wine so all is good. Hoping for ideal oak after blending. Silver lining— an unexpected opportunity to get some barrel time on another batch. 
And @Johnd I’m looking forward to going neutral actually. So I can barrel age without stressing about the oak. This is what makes me hesitant towards American oak- so much more “umph” and requiring even more attention. And in line with David’s thoughts- I’ve never even viewed American barrels as an option for small volume.


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Couple more barrel questions.
> 1.— regarding the vented bungs, once the co2 has released from the wine, is there any reason not to use solid bungs as I’ve been?? With the evaporation rate it doesn’t seem like it would be an issue.
> 2. Does a sample straight from the barrel give an accurate example of the wine? I’ve got an 8 gal barrel filled for +10wks now. And it’s too much oak. (The wine was fantastic before any oak). I know oak fades in time, but is there an initial quick oak drop off once removed from the barrel?
> I know I could just wait to make a decision, but I want to keep the barrel filled. Just gotta decide what’s goin in!



AJ, I can't seem to find what wine you put in it. My SA Cab was in the new barrel for 12 1/2 weeks. When I first took it out it was because I thought it might be on the border of too much oak. But since these were grapes from Stollenbosch I thought I might want to put it back in the barrel once it started to go neutral a bit. Any how I just tasted it along with 3 gallon that never saw the barrel and really think it needs more oak. For the record I took it out of the barrel on 10-20-2018 and thanks for the excuse for doing a tasting.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> AJ, I can't seem to find what wine you put in it. My SA Cab was in the new barrel for 12 1/2 weeks. When I first took it out it was because I thought it might be on the border of too much oak. But since these were grapes from Stollenbosch I thought I might want to put it back in the barrel once it started to go neutral a bit. Any how I just tasted it along with 3 gallon that never saw the barrel and really think it needs more oak. For the record I took it out of the barrel on 10-20-2018 and thanks for the excuse for doing a tasting.



It’s my 254/80 Malbec from May. The wine is better than I ever anticipated, and I definitely want to be careful not to mess it up! 
TBH tho it’s not even debatable on being overoaked. Though blending 8gal oaked with 12 gal unoaked I’m thinking will end up right on the money. It really didn’t need much- if any. And I don’t wanna keep messing with a good thing! 
Thinking of giving some of the newer “family red” a turn in there. (Saving my Paso cab for a 55L French that is just about time to finally order)


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## mainshipfred

Ajmassa5983 said:


> It’s my 254/80 Malbec from May. The wine is better than I ever anticipated, and I definitely want to be careful not to mess it up!
> TBH tho it’s not even debatable on being overoaked. Though blending 8gal oaked with 12 gal unoaked I’m thinking will end up right on the money. It really didn’t need much- if any. And I don’t wanna keep messing with a good thing!
> Thinking of giving some of the newer “family red” a turn in there. (Saving my Paso cab for a 55L French that is just about time to finally order)



Are you going to blend it now or wait. I would like to see if the oak mellows in 2 months like mine did.


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## Ajmassa

mainshipfred said:


> Are you going to blend it now or wait. I would like to see if the oak mellows in 2 months like mine did.



That’s a good question. I’m Not partial. My plan was to just let my available open vessels determine that- but after seeing your question and now looking at the my carboy/demijohn situation I could do either. 
The 34L demi I got to compliment the barrel came in handy- 
I’ll probably just blend all right away. But would like the knowledge so going to try and keep a couple 5L jugs of oak/noOak to see the differences in time.


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## Boatboy24

Ajmassa5983 said:


> That’s a good question. I’m Not partial. My plan was to just let my available open vessels determine that- but after seeing your question and now looking at the my carboy/demijohn situation I could do either.
> The 34L demi I got to compliment the barrel came in handy-
> I’ll probably just blend all right away. But would like the knowledge so going to try and keep a couple 5L jugs of oak/noOak to see the differences in time.



AJ: You may want to wait to blend. What may be a perfect oak balance today could be too little after the oak falls off. If you wait a couple months, you'd have a better idea. Of course, you could blend now, and add more oak later, if needed.


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## Ajmassa

Boatboy24 said:


> AJ: You may want to wait to blend. What may be a perfect oak balance today could be too little after the oak falls off. If you wait a couple months, you'd have a better idea. Of course, you could blend now, and add more oak later, if needed.



Thanks man. Your second thought is exactly what I had just planned. . 
Even if the oak falls back into place I’d still be left 12 needing barrel time. And while I wait to find out I need to keep the barrel filled. 
So I would either barrel another 8 running the risk of being unable to blend it down enough
Or
Blend now and worst case scenario just needs some more later. 
Or
Remove and fill barrel with something else and keeping all separated to decide later on

One of the driving factors here for me is that wine stands extremely well on its own. Maybe I don’t blend the whole lot. I could fill a demijohn and keep a 6 gal carboy unoaked. (I do plan to keep a carboy in bulk for long term for future multivintage blending. Keeping unoaked allows me to do that future blend in a barrel)
Arrrrg! Jim—- I have no idea what I’m doing! But I sure do love it.


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## Ajmassa

Decided to stop overthinking it and kept everything separate for now. Racked and sulphited all the Malbec. 
Ended up with slightly less than anticipated requiring re-racks. Had to put a 6 gal into a 5 gal. But no 5’s open. Used one of my Better Bottles I bought but had yet to use. 
Decided to risk it and rack with the AIO- because I’m stubborn and thought “it’s probably fine- just a liability for extreme situations.”
But I’ll be damned. Story checks out. After collapsing and shutting off motor it at least started a nice steady siphon for me lol. 
It was late so I just rinsed the barrel and plugged it- filling today with some of the Muscat Alicante Family Blend.


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## baron4406

I think overoaking your wine is more pronounced with a more aggressive oak like american oak. The 6.75G barrel I got from Fred at the meetup has a Syrah in it that I termed as a "break in" wine due to the fact that it was partly juice. Well my plan was at just got 6 weeks since that's the rule of thumb- but ended up at 10 weeks due to me not having the time to get it our of there. The wine doesn't have a hint of oak out of the barrel probably since it a milder oak(Hungarian). My next batch in it was an all grape Petit Syrah and I'm going to leave it is for 12 weeks and then just got to 6 months for the next wine. Even if you over oak the wine you can let it in the bttole for a year and the oak will be totally gone by then.


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## Ajmassa

Not sure if you guys add anything to the outside of your barrels for protection, but I just did and it made a nice difference. 
I had previously coated the heads with beeswax because of leaks (not 100% effective but definitely helped) but was annoying to get beeswax on my hands every time I handled it. So after removing the 1st run I cleaned it up and coated whole barrel with cutting board oil. 
First 12 weeks I couldn’t go more than a couple days without seeing seepage, and now bone dry after 1 wk. 
I loaded it on extremely generously, and probably coulda have even benefitted from a 2nd coat. 
Anyone else treating their barrels with oil, conditioner, mildecide, or something like that?


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## Johnd

Ajmassa5983 said:


> Not sure if you guys add anything to the outside of your barrels for protection, but I just did and it made a nice difference.
> I had previously coated the heads with beeswax because of leaks (not 100% effective but definitely helped) but was annoying to get beeswax on my hands every time I handled it. So after removing the 1st run I cleaned it up and coated whole barrel with cutting board oil.
> First 12 weeks I couldn’t go more than a couple days without seeing seepage, and now bone dry after 1 wk.
> I loaded it on extremely generously, and probably coulda have even benefitted from a 2nd coat.
> Anyone else treating their barrels with oil, conditioner, mildecide, or something like that?



I don’t do anything to the exterior of mine, other than the occasional Kmeta spritzing / wiping of wine stains. I do spray the exterior around the bung hole before and after opening and closing the bunghole. Cant be too careful keeping your bunghole clean......


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## pgentile

So far I do nothing to the outside other than spritz with kmeta. Does coating or treating the exterior of the barrel inhibit or affect micro-ox in anyway?

Just tasted the carmenere/malbec in barrel for six weeks, can smell the oak pretty strongly, but it does not taste over oaked at this point. Could handle some more. Going to check in 2-4 weeks and then this years zin goes in for the long haul. I have enough zin to do almost half oaked and half un-oaked.

Also not experiencing quite as much evaporation as I thought I would. Maybe a glass of wine in 6 weeks.


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## Ajmassa

pgentile said:


> So far I do nothing to the outside other than spritz with kmeta. Does coating or treating the exterior of the barrel inhibit or affect micro-ox in anyway?



I’m sure it does to a degree but not enough for me to be concerned about it. Hard to compare before/after since the wine in the barrel, humidity, temp, aren’t the same. 
Wax obviously would bigtime, but so far with the oil it seems to be the same rate. Another couple weeks I’ll top and compare my notes.


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## mainshipfred

Paul, this is supposed to be breathable but a winemaker told me it does slow down micro oxy so he only coats parts of the barrel the belly especially to keep them looking clean. I've been considering it for both the barrels and press. I'm experiencing the same with the barrels in the wine can (should) stay in longer than others have indicated. 

https://www.piwine.com/mildewcide-coating-x650-gallon.html


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## pgentile

mainshipfred said:


> Paul, this is supposed to be breathable but a winemaker told me it does slow down micro oxy so he only coats parts of the barrel the belly especially to keep them looking clean. I've been considering it for both the barrels and press. I'm experiencing the same with the barrels in the wine can (should) stay in longer than others have indicated.
> 
> https://www.piwine.com/mildewcide-coating-x650-gallon.html



Thanks, press too? I think I did look at this right before I got the barrel.


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## mainshipfred

pgentile said:


> Thanks, press too? I think I did look at this right before I got the barrel.



Someone posted somewhere that they use it on their press. I thought it was a good idea.


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## Boatboy24

I've seen EZ-Do recommended for press wood.


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## FTC Wines

I coated my press with Ez Do 4 years ago when I built it. It has remained in pristine condition, we use it as a decoration in our hallway. We press 8-12 lugs of red grapes each year. Roy


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## ibglowin

WTF? They recommend bleaching your barrel to clean it up before hand! That's pure idiocracy......

_*"Use*: Two coats, applied 24 hours apart are recommended. If applied to used barrels, clean the outside of the barrel with soda ash and hot water, then apply sodium hypochlorite (clorox) solution to kill any mold and to brighten the wood."_



mainshipfred said:


> Paul, this is supposed to be breathable but a winemaker told me it does slow down micro oxy so he only coats parts of the barrel the belly especially to keep them looking clean. I've been considering it for both the barrels and press. I'm experiencing the same with the barrels in the wine can (should) stay in longer than others have indicated.
> 
> https://www.piwine.com/mildewcide-coating-x650-gallon.html


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## mainshipfred

ibglowin said:


> WTF? They recommend bleaching your barrel to clean it up before hand! That's pure idiocracy......
> 
> _*"Use*: Two coats, applied 24 hours apart are recommended. If applied to used barrels, clean the outside of the barrel with soda ash and hot water, then apply sodium hypochlorite (clorox) solution to kill any mold and to brighten the wood."_



That is one step in the process that will be skipped, good catch. You would think O'Sullivan would know better.


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## Ajmassa

ibglowin said:


> WTF? They recommend bleaching your barrel to clean it up before hand! That's pure idiocracy......
> 
> _*"Use*: Two coats, applied 24 hours apart are recommended. If applied to used barrels, clean the outside of the barrel with soda ash and hot water, then apply sodium hypochlorite (clorox) solution to kill any mold and to brighten the wood."_



I looked into this product initially. When I read about the Clorox I assumed it referred to protecting used barrels- retired from holding wine and repurposed.


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