# Chilean grapes!!!! Newbie!!



## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

I will be doing my first crush very soon and will be ordering my grapes this week. I want to do a blend and would like to crush and ferment them together. And suggestions on type or ratio??? I am looking to do about 200 lbs total. Using a 14.5 demijohn and some small carboys or one gallon jugs. 


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 24, 2014)

What are you blending?

FWIW, I'm also doing a field blend. I'm using Cab Sauv, Syrah and Merlot. 108lbs total. 3 lugs of Cab, 2 Syrah, and 1 Merlot.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

I haven't decided yet. This is my first time and have heard from some people that not all grapes can be blended in the crush and have to be done separately. 
these are my choices. 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

Boatboy24 said:


> What are you blending?
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I'm also doing a field blend. I'm using Cab Sauv, Syrah and Merlot. 108lbs total. 3 lugs of Cab, 2 Syrah, and 1 Merlot.




That's the blend I was thinking just not sure the ratio. I suppose since I am doubling the amount your doing I could prob just follow your ratios. Will u crush and ferment them all together?? Same container??


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 24, 2014)

Because my quantity is relatively small, I'm going to crush and ferment together. It doesn't make much sense to me to keep them separate. I've only got one all grape batch under my belt, so with more experience (and hopefully success), I'll move to larger quantities and would then consider fermenting separately and blending when finished.


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## JohnT (Mar 24, 2014)

I have done several batches of Chilean, here is what I suggest... 

I would do a 80/20 cabernet to merlot. 

Chilean grapes come in 1/2 lug crates (or hl) of 18 pounds.

For a 54 liter demijohn, you will need a minimum of 10 half lugs. 

This works out to 8 half lugs of cabernet, and 2 half lugs of merlot. If you plan to get an additional half lug (to bring the total weight to 198 pounds) I would just get an additional cabernet. 

The cabernet and merlot grapes coming from chille is remarkable in quality. I have made this blend and have to say it is some of the best that I have ever made.

another option would be to swap the merlot for carmenere. This will make the resulting wine a little more "peppery".

I always crush them together, macerate them together, ferment them together, and press them together.


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## Rocky (Mar 24, 2014)

I agree with JohnT although I might go 75/25 Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot but that is picking fly poop out of pepper.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 24, 2014)

You guys are making me second guess my inclusion of Syrah.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

Excellent!!!! That sounds great!!! That's exactly the info I was looking for!!!! 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 24, 2014)

Any preferences for the yeast????


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## JohnT (Mar 25, 2014)

Use would use Lalvin RC-212, my yeast of choice.

I find that syrah "thins out" the rich boldness of the cab/merlot blend. I like 'em big and bold.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 25, 2014)

And is it necessary to do a mlf ??? 


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 25, 2014)

Necessary? No. 

Preferable? Probably.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 25, 2014)

Hmmmm this is my first batch from grapes. And my last experience was juice and I did wild fermentation (family friends method) and well no surprise but it's crap. I wonder if mlf is out of my league?!?! Does it make a huge difference?? Or will it just give me another step I could mess up and ruin my wine 


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 25, 2014)

MLF isn't as bad as it sounds. Actually, it's very similar to alcoholic fermentation. You hydrate, you pitch, you test. Of course, there are a few other things along the way. 

Here's a good write up:

http://www.morebeer.com/public/pdf/wmlfinfo.pdf


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## JohnT (Mar 26, 2014)

Nayrea, 

You can make a superb wine without MLF. 

but, if you were to put that superb wine through MLF, you would end up with a wine that is abso-freaking-lutely mind blowing!

Unless you are using sorbate, MLB will not cause your wine any harm. IMHO, it is worth a try.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 26, 2014)

Thank u guys for the advice. I am going to do some research and see if I am up for it this round. If not I will try it in the fall when I have some more experience with grapes. 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 26, 2014)

Sorry if this is a dumb question but what IMHO ???


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## sour_grapes (Mar 26, 2014)

IMHO = In my humble (or honest) opinion....


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## peaches9324 (Mar 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I agree with JohnT although I might go 75/25 Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot but that is picking fly poop out of pepper.



never heard that one before!


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 26, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> Thank u guys for the advice. I am going to do some research and see if I am up for it this round. If not I will try it in the fall when I have some more experience with grapes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## nayrea143 (Mar 26, 2014)

Ohhhhhhhh got it. Honestly tho is doing a mlf too much of an undertaking for a complete newbie?!?!?? The article u linked was great but I am still intimidated. I need more special testing equipment. All I have is a hydrometer 


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## harleydmn (Mar 26, 2014)

I have done it without testing equip., and my wine turned out great. I would check it every couple weeks and when there was no more activity I added my kmeta. It took 3 months to get done, but the temps was a little low.


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## Droc (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm doing my first run of juice from chile this spring and I'm going to attempt it. So far I have a bunch of meads and three kits under my belt. From what I've ready it doesn't sound overly complicated, but I do have to get the chromography testing stuff to make sure it's finished. I think the test kits run about $50 or so if I'm not mistaken. 


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## JohnT (Mar 26, 2014)

MLF can be simple... 

1) go easy on the k-meta additions. 

2) add the MLB and monitor the temp of the wine

3) taste the wine every couple of days. Does it seem to be softening? If so, then MLF is happening.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 26, 2014)

Hahahah hahahah 


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## sdelli (Mar 28, 2014)

I am doing a 60/40 cab/merlot this year as well. I am going to try using a 50/50 mix with grapes and juice. I usually use BM4X4 or ICVD21 and then VP41 for the mlf......


Sam


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## nayrea143 (Mar 29, 2014)

I am doing all grapes. I just ordered 9 half lugs of cab sav and 2 half lugs of merlot. My supplier said we can decide the yeast when the see how high the sugar content is. Said he would know more when the grapes come in. 


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## Turock (Mar 29, 2014)

Nayrea--In my opinion, Cab really benefits from an MLF. MLF reduces acidity, and makes the wine more robust and smooth. After an MLF, the wine is so nice that even people who don't like dry wines will say how good it is and they can't believe they're drinking a dry wine--at least, that's the kind of comments WE get. Merlot is also nice with an MLF.

If you Google MLF, you'll find several white papers on it. Print out the instructions and follow them exactly when you go to do it the first time. It's not hard, but there is a new layer of attention to detail that you must follow. But then--you're female. Attention to detail is probably your middle name. In the instructions, you'll see that you need to test for completion of the MLF and they mention the Accuvin test kit or chromotography. The Accuvin is quatitative but has an error of 30PPM on the low end. And color change can be hard to detect for some people. Go with the chromo test--it is some fussing around, but you get absolute results and you get used to working with it by the second time you do MLF.

The big thing about MLF is that you need to get all the supplies for doing it and have it ready to go. So do the research and get everything you need for it, ahead of time. Once you see the result of MLF, you'll never go back. It will be alot of fun to give a glass of THIS wine to your friends!!!


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## nayrea143 (Mar 29, 2014)

I can't wait for my friends to try this. They think I am crazy for doing all this fussing but I am sure my wine will be tastier!!! ~ there is a good chance my hubby might go nuts when I mention I want to do the mlf. He is already thinking what did I get myself into. Lol. The only problem I for see is yes I pay attention to detail and I rather obsessive with research I am terrible terrible at math and word problems. This will be very challenging for me. Lol. I have been doing some reading but I haven't found a pork table instructions paper anywhere?!?!?!? Any recommendations?? And recommendations on a fair price chromo test??? I am even watching it on u tube!!! Lol


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## nayrea143 (Mar 29, 2014)

Pork table!!???!? Wth is that. I need to proof read . I guess that's what u get when I am typing and chasing two toddlers around. Lol. 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 29, 2014)

Also all I have is a hydrometer. I am reading about other tests people do in prep for mlf. Like co2??? And ph??? 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 29, 2014)

Found a good one on more wine making.com. 


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 29, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> Found a good one on more wine making.com.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



That's the one I learned from. Well, that, and a lot of advice from this forum.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 29, 2014)

I am starting to think I am in over my head. lol. Hope this works!!!! 


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, I DO understand that it seems overwhelming when you don't even have experience with having some ferments under your belt. No one is suggesting that you HAVE to do an MLF on these grapes. I've never had a CAB without an MLF--maybe someone here has, and can give you an opinion on how it tastes. If it tastes nice without an MLF, then maybe you'll choose to go that way. You should do what YOU want to do--don't let us push you into something you're not ready for.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

I want to do it. Really want to do it!!!! Lol. It just seems like I am the only fool who jumps in this deep on my first go around. I haven't even done a crush yet!!!! I know I need a chromo test. But what do u recommend for ph testing ?? And do I need to so2 test as well??? 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

Turock said:


> Well, I DO understand that it seems overwhelming when you don't even have experience with having some ferments under your belt. No one is suggesting that you HAVE to do an MLF on these grapes. I've never had a CAB without an MLF--maybe someone here has, and can give you an opinion on how it tastes. If it tastes nice without an MLF, then maybe you'll choose to go that way. You should do what YOU want to do--don't let us push you into something you're not ready for.




This might be asking too much of you but I truly value u and everyone's opinion and help on here so I was wondering if u could kinda help me get my shopping list together for my supplies chemicals and testing. My local store doesn't seem to have the mlf cultures and testing equipment. I really want to have everything ready to go. I will be picking up my grapes second weekend in May. 


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, you need a PH meter. But if you don't have money for one right now, at the very least you can use narrow range PH test strips. Just be sure they are narrow range--either morewine sells them or E C Kraus. 

It's not necessary for you to jump into an SO2 tester unless you want to. However, here's something to think about. If you want to be able to test PH,TA, and SO2 all in one, look at the Vinmetrica SC-200 from morewine. Kind of pricey at $355, but you can get about $80 or so into a PH meter, then if you get the Vinmetrica 100 for SO2 testing, you'd end up close to the price of the Vinmetrica 300. Something to think about, depending on your finances. You could get along just fine, for quite a while, with only buying a PH meter right now.

Your friends think you're nuts to do all this--well, THIS is what today's winemaking is all about. Knowing about providing nitrogen to your ferments thru nutrient management,etc. is something people in ancient times didn't know. And even tho they made lots of wine with native yeasts, we all know that the only time they got GOOD wine was when a tasty native yeast was the most dominate on the grapes. And most of that wine went to the king--not the commoners. So most wine of those times was probably not very good--they just didn't really know how BAD it was because they never had a good wine to make a comparison. 

Actually, we didn't work with grapes that needed MLF until we had perfected our winemaking style. But what the heck--LOTS of people do MLF's without tons of experience. It depends on what you're comfy with. Sometimes, trial by fire ain't such a bad way to learn.


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

LOL---we'll help you any way we can. A shopping list is a good idea. You'll need nutrient--Fermaid K is a good idea and you'll need Go Ferm along with it. Get some tataric acid, potassium metabisulfite in the form of campden tabs or powdered meta. Many people like the powder better--I would suggest to get that instead of campden tabs. Not a bad isea to have some calcium carbonate on hand but for these grapes you probably won't need it. But it's handy for raising PH if the grapes are too acidic. 

You have to choose your culture. RC212 would be great for these grapes. I really like that culture on big reds. Of course, have quite a bit of sugar on hand for adjusting brix. I'm sure I missed something--anyone feel free to add to the list.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

Ok great!!! I am starting my list!!! Lol. I do need to watch the finances this go around bc start up with this was a lot. Crush and press and all the demijons ect ect. And the grapes are going to cost close to 300.00 bucks as well. Now what about the mlf culture??? I gather I want a strong work horse type so my chances of a problem are less. And a nutrient for that as well?? I don't want to do the method where u prepare it days ahead and let it sit bc my schedule is un predictable and I won't be able to plan that out well enough. 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

Is this what I want?? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G8PWAU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 

Ph meter? 


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

If it wasn't for this group I would not even be attempting any of this!!!!!! My most sincere thanks to u guys!!!! 


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

By the way--morewine sells the chromo test kit for MLF--it's $69.99. But then all you'll need to replenish is the papers,solvent, and reagents. We don't even run the standards on the paper anymore because we know what we're looking for---so we cut the papers into strips and they last a long time that way!! Once you run the standards on a full sheet, you'll see what I mean. So once you know where the malic and lactic acids end up on the paper, you really don't need to use full sheets anymore and that will save money.

Morewine sells the MLB (the bacteria for the MLF) and we like the Bacchus the best. You have to be sure you don't sulfite the must too much because the MLB can have a hard time getting going under alot of sulfite. Be sure you don't have more than 20PPM of sulfite--this is where an SO2 tester is handy to have. Alcohol level needs to be no more than 13.5%. You see how you have to plan your musts when you have the intention of doing MLF. It's alot to manage for a newbie.

You also need special nutrient for the MLB, like Opti Malo Plus.

You start the MLF as soon as the primary ferment is done. You rack to carboys from the primary, then start the MLF.

If you weren't intimidated before, you probably ARE now. Decide if you're up to it before commiting. It's not only more work, but more expense.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

I don't mind the work and it seems with this hobby investing is necessary. Although when u start taking about ppm I cringed!!!' I have no clue how to obtain this info. I am so torn!!!!! Wish they had a pdf step by step for wine making start to finish with mlf for the complete novice (dummy) 


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

Hmmm--just not sure on that tester you found. The problem is this---I've never bought any of the PH meters sold for winemaking, so I don't know which one is best. I have a commercial PH meter that I got from work when we upgrded our PH test equipment for water treatment. They no longer needed the handheld unit and gave it to us for winemaking. So I'm in the dark--you need to ask others here which meter they like best.

Yeah--this hobby is pricey starting out!!! But then you have the stuff and the expenses go down, later on. If the chromo test is too expensive this time and you still want to do MLF, then get an Accuvin test kit.

The Bacchus culture for MLF is a good one. It's the one we use and you won't have any problem with it. It always goes to completion. You just have to keep the temp at 64-75 degrees plus the other contingencies I mentioned.

Yep this is a big load for a newbie--be sure to keep us in the loop as you move along. Read up on Fermaid K--you've got to step-feed nutrient so you don't end up with a problem ferment.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 30, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> Wish they had a pdf step by step for wine making start to finish with mlf for the complete novice (dummy)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



MoreWine has a great guide that walks you through the entire process.


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, do you know how these grapes are coming to you? Will they be frozen? Will there be SO2 on them for transit? Many people do ferments without SO2 on the first day after the crush when the are going to do MLF's. But because these grapes are traveling a long way, unless they are frozen, there could be quite a bit of SO2 on them!!

Did you ever go to the Westchester wine club online. They are in NJ, just like you. They are masters when it comes to fermenting grapes. All of them have tons of wine science knowledge. You should Google them and visit their site--you can post there with no problem. I think they may be of alot of help to you as they are very experienced with shipped-in grapes from other locations. I don't have experience in that area, as I deal with local grapes and use juice buckets. Just not sure what to tell you to expect with the shipped in grapes from Chile. Hopefully, someone here has experience with it.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

Ok I was looking at all the testing equipment on morewine and I am not ready to invest in soooooo many devices. Not to mention I have no clue what the hell they are talking about!!!! I have no problem getting the chromo kit tho. Can I do this with ph strips?? And no co2 testing??! 


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## Turock (Mar 30, 2014)

I think you mean SO2 testing--not CO2 testing. Yeah--you can get by without SO2 testing. I know nayrea--any time you don't understand, I'll do my best to explain what I know. What didn't you understand about the test equip?


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## nayrea143 (Mar 30, 2014)

Oh yes so2. Lol. Sorry. The mathematical portion was a bit much for me. Lol. Reminder of why I hated chem and bio chem. so much science!!! Whoa. But I want to do this!!!!! I think I can I think I can!!! Lol. So I need to order chromo kit and ph meter. But when u said to watch the ppm of sulfite how would I do that??? With no so2 monitor?? 


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## Floandgary (Mar 30, 2014)

A local vintner made a "winemakers blend". 60% Carmenere, 20% Petit Syrah, 20% Cab. Yummie!! Chilean juices I do believe.


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## Turock (Mar 31, 2014)

nayrea---guess who would know how these grapes come in? The Westcgester winemaking club--they were talking about the Chilean grapes on their site and how they came in last year. They would know how much SO2 is on these grapes. I've never worked with them--so don't know how they're treated. Go look at their posts on this subject and ask them that question.


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## nayrea143 (Mar 31, 2014)

Turock said:


> nayrea---guess who would know how these grapes come in? The Westcgester winemaking club--they were talking about the Chilean grapes on their site and how they came in last year. They would know how much SO2 is on these grapes. I've never worked with them--so don't know how they're treated. Go look at their posts on this subject and ask them that question.




I will do that!!!! Thank u thank u thank u!!!!!! Have a great day!!


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## nayrea143 (Apr 15, 2014)

And the money spending begins!!! Just ordered my chromo kit, mw 102, my Opti malo, Bacchus, and nice punch down tool as well!!! Still need my yeast and some more meta. And advice on fermax vs fermaid k and go ferm. 


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## wildvines (Apr 16, 2014)

Get fermaid k and go ferm. Don't have time to explain but has worked great with my yeast. I been using BM 4x4. Wasn't hard and had no issues during fermentation on last two kits I did. It actually kept my yeast stress free and smooth fermentation. It never got out of hand. Lol


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## Turock (Apr 16, 2014)

nayrea---go to the Scott Labs website and look at the info on Fermaid products there. Also, take a look at their online Fermentation Handbook. If you call them, they'll send you the book. www.scottlab.com and [email protected] Their phone number is 707-765-6666


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## nayrea143 (Apr 16, 2014)

Awesome!!!! ThAnk u!!


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## JohnT (Apr 16, 2014)

Nayrea, 

How are you fixed for a press, crusher, etc?

johnT.


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## nayrea143 (Apr 16, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Nayrea,
> 
> How are you fixed for a press, crusher, etc?
> 
> johnT.




I am destemming by hand and I have electric stainless steel crusher and a huge basket press. Got them on Craig's list last year. 


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## nayrea143 (Apr 17, 2014)

wow more wine ships super fast!!!!! Happy Easter to me!!!!!!!!


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## nayrea143 (Apr 17, 2014)

Turock said:


> nayrea---go to the Scott Labs website and look at the info on Fermaid products there. Also, take a look at their online Fermentation Handbook. If you call them, they'll send you the book. www.scottlab.com and [email protected] Their phone number is 707-765-6666




Just called and they are sending me a hard copy!!! Thank u!!! 


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## JohnT (Apr 17, 2014)

cool! do you also have a hydrometer and acid test kit. if not, you can get them and post your test results we can then help you more on adjustments etc.

edit: sorry, just saw you photo.... look forward you seeing your readings...


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 17, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> View attachment 15176
> wow more wine ships super fast!!!!! Happy Easter to me!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



They have a warehouse in PA now, in addition to the CA facility. Stuff gets here fast!

I recently bought that punch down tool as well. It's much more beefy than I expected. Great purchase - I can't wait to use mine!


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## nayrea143 (Apr 17, 2014)

JohnT said:


> cool! do you also have a hydrometer and acid test kit. if not, you can get them and post your test results we can then help you more on adjustments etc.
> 
> edit: sorry, just saw you photo.... look forward you seeing your readings...




Yes I have a hydrometer. And do I need acid test if I have a mw102 on its way (next Friday) and chromo test??? 


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## nayrea143 (Apr 17, 2014)

Boatboy24 said:


> They have a warehouse in PA now, in addition to the CA facility. Stuff gets here fast!
> 
> 
> 
> I recently bought that punch down tool as well. It's much more beefy than I expected. Great purchase - I can't wait to use mine!




I know!!!!! I bought it off your recommendation!!! It is way "beefier" then I thought too. Great price!!!


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## nayrea143 (Apr 17, 2014)

So I bought 60g of Opti malo plus
And three 1 g packets of Bacchus 
That will be enough for 198 lbs of grapes. Aprox like 15 gallons of wine. Yes????


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 17, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> So I bought 60g of Opti malo plus
> And three 1 g packets of Bacchus
> That will be enough for 198 lbs of grapes. Aprox like 15 gallons of wine. Yes????
> 
> ...



MoreWine claims the Bacchus packet is enough for 5 gallons. I used one packet each on my Chileans last year (both more than 7 gallons) and was fine. 

You may have been able to purchase a single pack of VP41 for less than 3 Bacchus. I think the pack that MoreWine sells is enough for more than 60 gallons.


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## JohnT (Apr 17, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> Yes I have a hydrometer. And do I need acid test if I have a mw102 on its way (next Friday) and chromo test???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



No need for an acid kit. PH meters are the better way to go.


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 17, 2014)

JohnT said:


> No need for an acid kit. PH meters are the better way to go.



But don't you still need the chems to test for TA using the 8.1 pH target?


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## nayrea143 (Apr 17, 2014)

Boatboy24 said:


> MoreWine claims the Bacchus packet is enough for 5 gallons. I used one packet each on my Chileans last year (both more than 7 gallons) and was fine.
> 
> 
> 
> You may have been able to purchase a single pack of VP41 for less than 3 Bacchus. I think the pack that MoreWine sells is enough for more than 60 gallons.




I got three packets so I should be ok then. But I just read about the vp41 and that one sounds good to. Sounds more forgiving as well. Hmmmmmmmm 


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## sdelli (Apr 17, 2014)

I use both... Don't worry Bachus is very good!


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## JohnT (Apr 18, 2014)

Boatboy24 said:


> MoreWine claims the Bacchus packet is enough for 5 gallons. I used one packet each on my Chileans last year (both more than 7 gallons) and was fine.
> 
> You may have been able to purchase a single pack of VP41 for less than 3 Bacchus. I think the pack that MoreWine sells is enough for more than 60 gallons.



Good point! My bad. What the heck was I thinking???? 

Nayrea, My apologies, if you plan on measuring acid weight (TA), you WILL need a test kit. These are rather inexpensive (around $8).


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## nayrea143 (Apr 18, 2014)

JohnT said:


> Good point! My bad. What the heck was I thinking????
> 
> Nayrea, My apologies, if you plan on measuring acid weight (TA), you WILL need a test kit. These are rather inexpensive (around $8).




Is that necessary??? Should I??? lol. Here goes another more wine order. Lol 


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## Boatboy24 (Apr 18, 2014)

nayrea143 said:


> Is that necessary??? Should I??? lol. Here goes another more wine order. Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making




I hate when that happens.


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## nayrea143 (Apr 18, 2014)

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