# Finishing/Cellaring Tannins - my personal observation



## Geronimo (May 30, 2014)

Just a word to the wise about using finishing and/or cellaring tannins... be careful because they tend to make all your wines taste the same. What I mean is, they all have the same finish. I've tried Tannin Riche, Tannin Rich Extra, Tan'Cor Grand Cru and the ubiquitous "wine tannin" chestnut extract. It's very tough to dial these things in on a kit-by-kit basis... and adding 4.5 grams of Tan'Cor Grand Cru every time isn't the answer either.


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## roger80465 (May 30, 2014)

Have to agree with that one Jim. I try to start with a base kit (no tweaks) just to get a feel of how the manufacturer intended the kit to taste. Then, I adjust it if I don't agree with their opinion. But I adjust slowly. Still fun to mess with it.


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## Julie (May 30, 2014)

You really need to add a small amount and different grapes are going to need a different amount.


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## Julie (Jun 9, 2014)

Not to take over this thread but I really didn't want to start another tannin thread. I really think a very small amount will work great in your wine. I am wondering if you are getting the same taste in your wines because of the amount. Anyway what I wanted to post is this.

I added 1/4 tsp of FT Blanc soft to a Catawba, the Catawba flavor comes they very nicely and it seems to be softer and a much better mouthfeel. It is six months old and I can start drinking this stuff now and keep going until it is done.


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## jas3019 (Jun 9, 2014)

Julie, when did you add the FT blanc soft? I have a Chilean sauv blanc that's just about a month old that I'd be curious to try this on. 


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## Julie (Jun 10, 2014)

A month ago. I have a sauv blanc that I added some to a gallon batch two weeks ago, I will take a little taste of that this weekend to see if it helped it any.


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## manvsvine (Jun 10, 2014)

post fermentation tannins don't integrate well with the base wine, they kind of dominate and mask the wine and take a long time to integrate with the wine, some times never acheiving balance.

adding tannin before pitching the yeast and letting the tannin go through fermentation with the grapes or juice will produce much better results , lifting the fruit instead of masking it .


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## cocroach (Jun 10, 2014)

Geronimo said:


> Just a word to the wise about using finishing and/or cellaring tannins... be careful because they tend to make all your wines taste the same. What I mean is, they all have the same finish. I've tried Tannin Riche, Tannin Rich Extra, Tan'Cor Grand Cru and the ubiquitous "wine tannin" chestnut extract. It's very tough to dial these things in on a kit-by-kit basis... and adding 4.5 grams of Tan'Cor Grand Cru every time isn't the answer either.



That's a bit disappointing to hear, especially since I arrived home today to find my 10-pack box of Tan'Cor Grand Cru sitting on my door step. I guess as long as the lengthy finish is there that might be worth it. 

I've heard a lot of good reviews about adding finishing tannins to wines, so I thought I'd give it a go. Based on the advice here, I'll probably test out small dosages on batches I've split up to see how it fares. 

Thanks for posting the review!


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## manvsvine (Jun 10, 2014)

the primary purpose of post fermentation tannins is to allow commercial wineries to get the most out of their red wine barreling programs , replacing the leached out tannins in older barrels. so they work best when used this way , the micro ox from barreling helps them integrate.

tancor gran cru can also be used preferment , so you could do two batches , one added before and one after and compare as they age


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## cocroach (Jun 10, 2014)

manvsvine said:


> the primary purpose of post fermentation tannins is to allow commercial wineries to get the most out of their barreling programs , replacing the leached out tannins in older barrels. so they work best when used this way , the micro ox from barreling helps them integrate.
> 
> tancor gran cru can also be used preferment , so you could do two batches , one added before and one after and compare as they age



mansvine, thanks for the tip! I will definitely try that.


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## Geronimo (Jun 10, 2014)

Tan'Cor Grand Cru is a finishing/cellaring tannin. It works very well for that purpose. Like I said, you need to be sure you want to add some because all your kits will start to have this strong similarity. I didn't mean to play it like it's bad, but it's not as simple as adding a pre-measured amount to every kit.


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## ibglowin (Jun 10, 2014)

I guess my experience/opinion is slightly different.

All my kit wines (early ones) all tasted exactly the same to me until I started to age them in a small (Vadai) barrel. Then and only then did I start to notice the different bouquets and flavors from different kits. At about a year going full into barrel aging I started to experiment with finishing tannins. I added them to bottled wines that had spent their entire life in glass only at first. I liked the extend finish immediately. So much that I would weigh out just the right amount to add to each bottle and uncork it, add the tannin and insert a fresh cork and invert the bottle back and forth about 20 times to mix well. Again I loved the extend finish but the wines still all tasted pretty much the same until……. 

I started adding tannins right after the wines came out of 3 months in the barrel and they were going into a 3-5 month carboy aging period.

Once I started opening these wines (18mo later) was the first time my kit wines started to really shine and all tasted very different from each other and some even tasted like a commercial wine.

So don't blame the tannin, I say blame the carboy if that is all your aging your wines in.


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## cocroach (Jun 10, 2014)

ibglowin said:


> I guess my experience/opinion is slightly different.
> 
> All my kit wines (early ones) all tasted exactly the same to me until I started to age them in a small (Vadai) barrel. Then and only then did I start to notice the different bouquets and flavors from different kits. At about a year going full into barrel aging I started to experiment with finishing tannins. I added them to bottled wines that had spent their entire life in glass only at first. I liked the extend finish immediately. So much that I would weigh out just the right amount to add to each bottle and uncork it, add the tannin and insert a fresh cork and invert the bottle back and forth about 20 times to mix well. Again I loved the extend finish but the wines still all tasted pretty much the same until…….
> 
> ...



I recall some posts where you have referenced your success with Vadai barrels. You are starting to convince me that this might be worth the investment...


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## jas3019 (Jun 11, 2014)

Mansvine, you say that the finishing wines are really used by commercial wineries after their barrels are mostly used up. What about for a home winemaker who isn't using barrels, just glass carboys? I've got a carmenere juice bucket going now and while I've added some oak cubes I'm wondering if some finishing tannin might also be a good idea. Any thoughts on that situation? 


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## joeswine (Jun 11, 2014)

*Agree to disagree*

*THERE WAS A GOOD POST ON WINE TANNINS ON THIS FORUM* ,AND IT TALKED ABOUT TANNINS AND THEIR ROLE IN THE PRIMARY /SECONDARY AND WHAT THERE TRAITS WERE,FOR ME I FERMENT AND FINISH IN GLASS ONLY, THAT'S WHAT I HAVE,ADDING TANNINS IN THE SECONDARY IS WERE THE MOST GOOD COMES OUT OF THEM (IMOP). THAT SAID IF WINES TEND TO START TO TASTE All ALIKE THEN IT'S THE RAW PRODUCT THAT IS BEING USED OR (KIT) NOT HAVING THE NECESSARY TASTE LEVELS NEED TO BE WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO END UP BEING OR YOUR PROCESS ,MOST REDS HAVE THE SAME BASIC CHARASTICS,THE TYPE OF PRODUCT USED IS THE VARIANCE.IF I HAD MORE TIME I WOULD INVEST IN A SMALL CASK JUST TO SEE AND SMELL THE DIFFERENCE ,BUT REMEMBER THERE SHELF LIFE IS ABOUT FIVE YEARS.JUST MY THOUGHTS.....................


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## geek (Jun 11, 2014)

Keep the comments coming...


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## manvsvine (Jun 11, 2014)

finishing tannins are a fine product to add to a wine that has a hole in its profile .

but it is preferred to make your tannin adjustments in the primary fermenter , I posted in the additive section in the pinned tannin thread why.

can finnishing tannins help? yes , but the* results will not be as integrated* as they would if they were added at or before the start of primary ferment .

using finishing tannins in neutral barrels works better because the micro ox helps them integrate , but in a carboy you have no micro ox so I would doubly recommend you do your tannin additions in the primary if youre a carboy or tank winemaker and want a smoother more integrated tannin profile.

if you like hit you over the head oaky tannin monsters , then loading up with finnishing tannins instead might be what you do. 
me , I try to shoot for subtle notes that elevate rather than mask fruit.


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## Geronimo (Jun 11, 2014)

Will adding finishing tannins to primary sacrifice them (by and large)?

I did try adding them to one batch near the end of primary and they seemed subdued, but without a control I couldn't be sure about anything.


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## Julie (Jun 12, 2014)

Making tannin adjustments prior to fermentation are more of a sacrificial nature, they will precipitate out in the lees. Adding tannins in this stage will preserve the natural tannins.


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## manvsvine (Jun 12, 2014)

thats only partially true , about 5-15 % of tannins added prior to fermentation precipitate out . the rest form long chain bonds with the wines natural tannins and color elements and become a structural part of the wine. they don't fall out with the lees but become an integral part of the wine. So only a small amount is sacrificial . 
in addition to bonding with the grape skin tannins and preserving colour , fermentation stage tannins also bond with any seed and stem tanins that may be in the must. this is important to know as if you have any green seeds or stem pieces in the must , the harsh short chain green tannins that will make your wine sharp and bitter , can be mitigated by binding with your fermentation stage addition. 

discussed at length in this tread. 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/tannins-know-when-why-add-them-42039/

the yeast fermentation stage tannins are not truely sacraficial but they do add a lot of structure to the wine. there is some bonding with proteins from the added tannins that don't make it into the final wine, I guess this could be called sacraficial but this is actualy the minority of the impact. more of a side action than principle benefit. and not all products have a strong action or sacraficial effect. 

yeast fermentation stage tannin additions bind with the two types of grape tannins naturally present , the skin and seed tannins and also the pigments of the grapes.

natural tannins from skins and seeds tend to have short molecular chains , they are unstable and want to form longer chains to become stable . this can happen naturaly , some natural binding happens durring ferment and some can happen as the wine ages , thats why ten year old reds are smoother than 1 year old reds.

but adding tannin in the yeast fermentation allows all the short chain tannins in the ferment to find a partner early and form long chains , long chains equals smooth and stable.

with the skin tannins the longer chains that are formed are similar to polimerisation , this improves tannin stability so they don't drop out later as the wine ages , ever had a filtered bottle of red wine later form a uniform coating inside the bottle not just on the bottom. this is tannin instability . very common with super ripe central valley grapes. syrah , zinfandel and cab sauv are particularly vulnerable at high levels of ripeness and matching high PH.

these longer chain tannin formations also improve mouth feel and reduce sharpness especialy if the fruit is a little green because of being under ripe or young vine or hybrid . vegital flavours are also surpressed, this is important if you get any green stem or leaf peices in the must, most basic crussher stemmers leave a little stem jacks in the must. nice brown jacks is ok in moderation but green ones can increase harshness , its almost impossible to pick all these out but tannin or oak dust can mitigate the impact.

the formation of these longer chain bonds are also very important late in yeast ferment as the alcohol level rises and seed tannins start to extract . seed tannins , especially if the seeds are at all green can make a wine very harsh . a tannin addition to reduce the unbound short chain natural tannins followed by delestage seed removal is a key strategy in reduceing rough character .

a tannin addition during yeast fermentation also help fix color and improve color stability , this is essential when also using an enzyme or heat spike to increase the colour and flavour density of the wine. you add the enzymes at crush to release the flood of color and aromatic compounds and then add tannins before 1/4 of the way into the ferment to lock in those color and flavour compounds.

its all about creating a wine with smooth mouthfeel , good body and stable color .

yeast fermentation stage tannins are the most critical , durring active ferment is when you have the greatest chance to influence what the wine will be . once primary is done , the horse is out of the gate and later tweaks become an attempt to cover flaws or shortcomings of the wine it can be like putting lipstick on a monkey . but fermentation stage additions , be they enzyme , tannin or SIY are like impacting the DNA before birth.

the impacts are better integrated and less obvious, especialy if you are a little heavy handed , which most homewinemakers are when it comes to additions.

I'd go as far as saying that if you can ,try to always add tannins during yeast fermentation stage and avoid the later stage additions . this can be hard for homewine makers to do since you often don't know your fruit that well but region , variety and must numbers can inform you decisions . 

Central Valley , hot region , high crop loads , high brix high PH , syrah , cab , zin , sangiovese , would be no brainers.
as would any red hybrid or very cold finger lakes type region.

after that , experience and taste will guide you , if you know you like a wine with round, integrated full tannins add them durring fermentation


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## joeswine (Jun 12, 2014)

*tannins*

THAT'S ALL WELL AND GOOD IF YOUR DOING GRAPES OR MAYBE,MAYBE, FRESH JUICE BUT WHAT A BOUT KITS,NOT EVERY WINE MAKER CAN DO WHAT THE OTHERS CAN AND NOT EVERY WINEMAKER HAS BARRELS BUT WANTS TO TRY AND ACHIEVE THE SAME TEXTURE AND STRUCTURE AND FOR ME THE ANSWER WAS IN THE SECONDARY AFTER THE BASE WINE WENT THROUGH PRIMARY AT THAT STAGE I CAN THEN BUILD UPON IT.


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## manvsvine (Jun 12, 2014)

Durring the fermentation stage you have the grape skins, pulp, seeds in the fermenter with the juice. this is your opportunity to make the fruit shine , the trick is to maximise the natural gifts the grape has to offer. 

what the winemaker has to do is let the fruit show its best without masking it to the point where the additions speak more than the grapes do.

I think it was Daniel Pambianachi who said that your additions should be like a makeup on a beautiful woman. If done right you won't know they are there , it just enhances the natural beauty.

the focus on fermentation stage is so that these additions are there when the yeast and the grapes are and able to be metabolised and integrated by the live yeast and also so that they are there to interact with the grapes at the time when the grapes are releasing their gifts into the must of the wine.

* if making a juice pail or wine kit * with no skins you still have the benefit of the active yeast so I would still focus on the yeast fermentation stage for your enhancements. The live yeast will metabolise some of the wood extracts that are present in the tannin product and aid to its integration into the wine. and with added skin tannins the live yeast during the alcohol ferment assist in the formation of the long chain bonds and colour preservation. (you will see this because your lees will be less pink. ) but you should add the low end of the manufacturers recommended amount because you don't have actual skins in the must releasing compounds , you just have those extracted during the extraction process the kit or juice went thorough , a finite amount.

*for carboys*the lack of micro ox in a carboy means you don't have o2 to soften your tannins and fatten mouthfeel, so get the yeast to do it for you!

anyone who wants to try this can hydrate a kit , split the kit between two 3 gallon carboys and add the tannin to one just before pitching the yeast and add it to the other after stabilizing the wine. let them age and bottle and try them side by side .
*make up your own mind*. my intent here is to share industy's most common practice.

The fermentation stage is a special combination of microbiological chemical reactions , it only happens once this magical combination of events. you don't want to miss it.
make the active biochemistry work for you


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## geek (Jun 12, 2014)

manvsvine, does this only apply to wine made from grape, not fruit wines.


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## manvsvine (Jun 12, 2014)

it somewhat parallels red and white wine practice for dark fruits that are tannin compatible yes . for light fruits like strawberries and peaches , inactivated yeast products to enhance fruity esters is probably a better route.

Sebastian


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## jensmith (Jun 14, 2014)

I make fresh fruit wines. I almost always add tannins pre ferment. I just use those cheep generic tannins. The results are well worth the addition. 
Just my two cents... 


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## Julie (Jun 14, 2014)

jensmith said:


> I make fresh fruit wines. I almost always add tannins pre ferment. I just use those cheep generic tannins. The results are well worth the addition.
> Just my two cents...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Wine Making



those are called sacrificial tannins

"Also natural components of plants, tannins are complex polyphenolic compounds that precipitate proteins (as in the tanning of leather). In wine, tannins may come from grape components (skins, seeds, stems) or from wood used during fermentation or aging (chips, sticks, or barrels, usually oak). Because tannins are natural compounds already present in traditional winemaking, they are also allowed as addition products in prepared and purified form. Some, such as Tanin VR Color® or FT Rouge Soft®, are targeted at least partly to help with color stability in red wines. Others, like Tannin Riche®, are referred to as “finishing tannins” and are intended for use later in the wine cycle to enhance aromas and flavors. 

When grapes are crushed and soaked, colored pigments called anthocyanins are released into the juice. Some of these combine with grape tannins to form soluble compounds that remain in the wine, providing color. Other reaction products, however, are less soluble and drop out of the wine, taking color with them. Purified tannin products are formulated to provide “sacrificial tannins” that will take the place of grape tannins that otherwise might precipitate. In so doing, they help maintain a higher concentration of the soluble grape tannin/anthocyanin complexes in the developing wine. So as the color is released from the skin cells, with or without added enzymes, the sacrificial tannins help keep the color in solution and maintain its presence on into the finished wine.

Because of the release cycle of the native compounds in grapes, the recommended tannin addition step is at or just after the onset of yeast fermentation. Tannin powder may be sprinkled directly on top of the rising cap and mixed in during the first punchdown of a new red wine fermentation. Use rates can vary widely, so you may need to experiment on your wines for best effects. Typical ranges are from about 50 to 250 g/1,000 pounds of fruit."

http://winemakermag.com/1244-red-wine-color-stability-techniques


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## manvsvine (Jun 14, 2014)

Scott Labs fermentation handbook is a good source of information on all kinds of wine products .

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf

this is their FAQ on the tannins they carry 

*"When is the best time to add tannins ? How do I add them ?*
Tannins are best added early in the winemaking process. In red wine,
an addition during the fermentation stage integrates tannin into
the wine and offers the greatest opportunity for color stability and
increased mid-palate structure. They can be added at the crusher
or to the tank during the first pump-over, depending on the grape
quality (rotten vs. sound). Additional tannin can be added with each
pump-over. If adding to a white wine, add directly to the grapes at
the crusher or to the tank during a tank mixing.

*I am using tannin and enzymes . Will SO2 interfere with my
additions ?*
Using all three products together is fine, but timing is important!
High SO2 content can inhibit enzyme activity. Do not add SO2 and
enzymes at the same time. It is okay to add enzymes after the SO2
is adequately dispersed OR to add SO2 after the enzymes are adequately
dispersed. Follow with a tannin addition six to eight hours
later. When enzymes are not being used, add SO2 first, allow to
disperse, then follow with the tannin addition.
*
Can I use tannins on white juice and wine ?*
Yes, a tannin addition in white juice may be beneficial to remove
off-aromas, to improve clarification, to inhibit laccase activity from
Botrytis or rot, or to serve as an anti-oxidant. We recommend using
either Uva’Tan, Uva’Tan Soft, FT Blanc or FT Blanc Soft. Tannins
can also be added later to wine to improve mid-palate structure
or softness.

*Why should I use tannins on my “premium ” red grapes ?*
Tannins can be used to protect the color and phenolic structure of
your wines. For the easiest and most efficient integration of tannins,
add FT Rouge or FT Rouge Soft at the crusher. If needed, an addition
of Uva’Tan, Uva’Tan Soft or Estate prior to aging can help reinforce
phenolic balance. During long maturation in barrels, Estate will help
prevent excessive oxidation that can result in loss of structure and
freshness. For improved SO2 management add small amounts of
Estate (5-7.5 g/hL) during each racking.

*Will tannin additions increase color in low -color grape varieties ?*
Tannins do not add color to the must of low color grapes. Recent
research indicates that early addition of tannins such as FT Rouge
allows them to bind up available proteins. This preserves the grapes'
own natural tannins, making them available to bind with the grapes’
anthocyanins and thereby provides increased color stability.


*Why not add oak chips ? Aren ’t they a source of accessible tannin ?*
Oak chips are a source of ellagic (wood) tannin. The level of tannin
available will differ depending upon the wood source and the treatment
regime. When using oak based products, macromolecules
(lignin, cellulose, hemicellulose, etc.) other than oak will be extracted.
The oak based addition may help mask flavors, provide some oxidative
protection and leave an oak finish, but they will NOT improve
mid-palate structure. By contrast, the combination of wood and proanthocyanidic
tannins in FT Rouge or FT Rouge Soft will help improve
structure and color stability.
*
What if I did not add enough tannin during the primary
fermentation ?*
If more tannin structure and flavor is desired post-fermentation,
make additions with Complex or Estate. Addition is best before barrel
aging when tannins can be incorporated into the wine and when
oxidation and polymerization are slow. Refresh, Riche and Riche
Extra are the best tannins to use prior to bottling (3-6 weeks) when
a bit of oak influence is desired. Any of these tannins can be used
throughout winemaking, depending on the desired effect. Bench
trials are required to determine the best tannin for a particular wine
or style.

*Will adding tannins inhibit barrel aging ?*
Tannins protect wine from oxidation during barrel aging. The wood
tannins extracted from a new barrel protect the wine from over-oxidation
during the slow process needed for tannin polymerization and
wine development. When using old barrels, indigenous tannin may
have been completely leached out. A small tannin addition of 5-10 g/hL
will act as an anti-oxidant and help protect the wine. Attaining a good
phenolic profile will slow the maturation process and still protect
the wine.

*Can tannins help remove undesirable astringency or bitterness ?*
Yes. Over-astringency is caused by an imbalance of tannin molecules
or by insufficiently bound tannin complexes. By adding a more
refined, highly polymerized tannin to the wine, the imbalance can be
corrected and the perception of astringency or bitterness reduced.
This frequently improves the perception of fruit.

*What if I only want to use pure grape tannin in my wine ?*
Uva’Tan (tannins from grape skins and seeds) and Uva’Tan Soft
(tannins from grape skins only) are comprised of 100% grape tannin.
All other tannins are sourced from a combination of grapes,
exotic woods, oak or chestnut."


Scott labs has fermentation tannins, Cellaring tannins , finishing tannins, and for those who like a chewy parker wine, OTT tannins (yes over the top for those who don't want smooth and integrated)


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## tonyt (Jun 14, 2014)

This has really been a helpful thread. I usually do pre fermentation tannins. Then after barrel aging I decide if I need a finishing tannin. I think now I will change that approach and decide pre barreling if I need finishing tannin in addition to the fermentation tannins. Especially since both of my barrels are for the most part neutral.


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## manvsvine (Jun 14, 2014)

if you taste the wine and it needs it , adding some cellaring tannin while barreling will allows the tannins to get some micro oxygenation and time to integrate into the wine and form those nice long chains for better mouthfeel.

and also reduce oxidization

I usually wait until its in the barrel for two months before tasting and making any decisions on cellaring tannin additions.

I want to see how the wine is coming along first 
after two months in the barrel some of the fermentation roughness , yeasty character and co2 should have dissipated and I have a better sense of the wine before adding anything else

most of the time I add nothing , or just some oak cubes


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