# Wine throws a sediment after stabilizing and sweetening?



## Bliorg (Apr 9, 2021)

Hi all - 

So the berry/dragon fruit wine I've been working on, which has had sulfide issues since the second racking (but that I _seem_ to be on the good side of now) was ready for sweetening this week. Wine was totally clear in the carboy. Racked to a bucket (about 6 gallons total), added in 3 teaspoons of sorbate dissolved in maybe a cup of cold water, and also about 1/8 teaspoon K-meta in cold water. Stirred for maybe 3 minutes. Did some taste testing, decided on a low dose of sugar. Added to bucket and stirred thoroughly to dissolve (about 5 minutes), which is my normal protocol. Racked to a clean carboy and airlocked it. Everything was clean and sanitized before using. Walk away from it.

Come back the next evening. Wine is clearly hazy and cloudy. Fine, whitish sediment is starting to settle out. Shine a light though the carboy and can clearly see fairly good sized particulate suspended in the wine. No signs of fermentation going on at all. Have been watching it all week. Wine is clearing fine, but what the heck caused the sediment in the first place? 

I'm at a loss. The wine was treated with a low-ish dose of Reduless to combat the sulfide. Immediately fined with SuperKleer after the Reduless to help ensure all the Reduless was removed. Had haze issues after that. Dosed with pectic enzyme first, no help, then fined with a middling dose of bentonite, which cleared the haze. Racked twice since then before this latest episode. Current plan is to let the wine clear completely, then open it up and taste it. If all seems well enough, rack it off the sediment, run it through #1 and #2 Minijet filters, bottle, and hope for the best.

Anyone ever see something like this - sediment forming on stabilizing? New one for me.


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## heatherd (Apr 9, 2021)

It is likely gas. Had that happen on a few of my batches after stabilizing.


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## Bliorg (Apr 10, 2021)

heatherd said:


> It is likely gas. Had that happen on a few of my batches after stabilizing.


As in the haziness is just entrained gas? I'm thinking not:


Hmm... by Scott, on Flickr

I was kind of thinking that at first because of all the agitation dissolving the sugar, but there's definite sediment dropping out.

It's almost clear now. Will probably let it sit until next weekend then taste it, etc. Hoping all is still well with this...


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## heatherd (Apr 10, 2021)

Bliorg said:


> As in the haziness is just entrained gas? I'm thinking not:
> 
> 
> Hmm... by Scott, on Flickr
> ...


Taste it - if it is "zippy" its gas. Might give it a good stir to get that all out, as wine won't clear if there's gas.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 12, 2021)

@Bliorg, I agree, give the wine a good stir. This may not be the problem, but at least you can eliminate CO2 as a cause. After the next racking, let the wine set 2 weeks to see if you get more sediment. If not, your plan sounds good.


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## Bliorg (Apr 23, 2021)

Okay, so the wine cleared perfectly. Today was (supposed to be) bottling day. Racked it off the sediment into a bucket. Wine still clear. Filtered from the bucket to a 6.5 gallon BMB. Uh oh. Wine's cloudy again. Let it sit a bit, hoping that it's somehow entrained air from the filtration and will off gas a bit. Nope, got cloudier. To this point, I've degassed this wine for a total of about 20 minutes with a drill-mounted whip. So I figure it's degassed thoroughly, in addition to sitting in a carboy for 4.5 months and being racked a half dozen times. Figure what the hell, I'll try degassing again with the whip:



Gassy by Scott, on Flickr

What-the-everloving-crap? I've never had a wine this gassy. Clearly (ha ha) that's the root cause of all my clearing issues, as you kind folks suggested. I still can't fathom this much gas sitting around for so long. And I still don't know where the last bout of sediment came from in a wine that's been fined twice and was apparently cleared.

So, not bottling tonight. I'm going to go in cycles - degas until it foams this much, let sit and off-gas a bit, repeat. Going to be a long night. But I really want to get this stuff bottled. WAY over this.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 23, 2021)

Degassing takes 3 minutes. Agitate the wine and it will normally degas. No clue what is happening, but more stirring is not the answer until more diagnosis.

What is your SG?


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## Bliorg (Apr 23, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Degassing takes 3 minutes. Agitate the wine and it will normally degas. No clue what is happening, but more stirring is not the answer until more diagnosis.
> 
> What is your SG?


Before sweetening, 0.990. After sorbate and sweetening, 0.998-_ish_.

You replied whilst I was beating up the wine s'more. Before I did this, in the space of 20 minutes, the wine had about 85% cleared. 

I dunno. Still smells good, still tastes good, does not taste "zippy", though it never did.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 23, 2021)

Bliorg said:


> Before sweetening, 0.990. After sorbate and sweetening, 0.998-_ish_.


Weird! Wine is stable and clouded up *after *filtration? You have stumped me.

Give it a few days. Is it dropping sediment?

Given the smell & taste, the wine is probably fine. It appears you've found an unusual situation that defies normal diagnosis.

When I think I've seen everything, situations like this crop up. Good for me (keeps me on my toes), a bit nerve wracking for you.


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## Bliorg (Apr 23, 2021)

Bryan, this has been a huge PITA the whole way. Ferment was cool and controlled and the aromas were wonderful after primary. Then it started in with sulfide odors. Fought that for a good long while, had haze issues off and on, hit it with Reduless, fined it afterward to ensure any residual was gone. Threw another haze, tried pectic enzyme to no avail, then fined with bentonite. Crystal clear at this point. Sulfide issues kept coming and going. Repeated splash racking with metabisulfite dosing. Finally had gotten rid of the odors. Wine was clear. Tasted great. Stabilized with sorbate and sweetened just a bit. Then it threw a sediment. Let that clear, and we're to today. It seems to be clearing now after repeated degassing (I think three or four times at about 7-8 minutes each). I'm completely at a loss.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 24, 2021)

@Bliorg, This is a weird one. My guess is the sulfide has something to do with it, but that's just a guess. It's the one out-of-the-ordinary thing I see in your situation.

At this point, aroma and taste are key. As long as it continue to smell/taste good, appearance is secondary. Give it a month in the carboy to see what happens. If it clears, rack off the sediment and bottle.


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## stickman (Apr 24, 2021)

I would give some time to ensure that fermentation hasn't started work on the residual sugar. Given what you've done so far this shouldn't be a problem, but the last thing you want to do is to put suspect wine into bottles.


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## Bliorg (Apr 24, 2021)

Well the wine is largely clear. Letting it go a bit to make sure. May rack it back to a 6 gallon carboy to minimize the headspace though. There’s been zero sign of refermentation so I’m not too worried about that, but the way things have gone, maybe I should be...


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## Bliorg (Apr 27, 2021)

So yesterday the wine was again about 85%+ cleared. A little bit of haze but could still read through it. Decided I'm going to let it sit a couple weeks anyway, but needed to be racked out of the BMB into something appropriately sized. Which in this case was a 5 gallon carboy, with the overflow going into a 1 gallon Fermonster. Racked it yesterday. Seemed fine. Got up this morning and it's cloudy again.

I'm very much opposed to bottling cloudy wine, and I'm not bottling this anytime soon, but for whatever reason, the act of siphoning this wine seems to kick off some cloudy cascade. I have no doubt that I'll let it sit a few weeks, it'll clear yet again, I'll bottle it, and the bottles will develop a haze overnight.


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## Bliorg (Apr 27, 2021)

Okay, _really_ grasping at straws here, but I fined this with Reduless during the sulfide wars. I dosed at 3.6 g/6 gallons, or 0.6 g/gallon, which is the top of the range recommended by MoreWine. I looked on Lallemand's site, and this equates to a little more than 15g/HL. 15 g/HL is their maximum. So a strong dose, but not ridiculously out of range. I'm wondering now if, due to the chemistry of this wine in particular (damned dragon fruit) there's a propensity toward a haze caused by some level of residual copper.

Does anyone know how a copper casse behaves in wine?


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## stickman (Apr 27, 2021)

Normally copper casse doesn't appear until the oxygen from racking or bottling has been consumed, which often can take several weeks to 2 months. Copper casse is often brown or reddish brown as a deposit. On the other hand, iron or ferric casse will throw a haze a day or two after the wine comes into contact with oxygen. In your case, with all of the clarification steps completed, and without a subsequent high source of iron or copper, I doubt the risk of either of these issues is high. 

The slight oxygen increase due to racking is possible to cause yeast to multiply and give a haze, but this shouldn't be a problem if your sulfite and sorbate levels are in range. Degassing the wine means that the solution is no longer saturated with CO2, therefore any slight fermentation will not cause visible bubbles actively rising until the wine becomes saturated with CO2 again.

Relax and give the wine some time to do what it's going to do, maybe taste along the way, and keep us updated.


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## Bliorg (May 10, 2021)

So, two weeks on, and...

...nothing. Or nearly nothing. I spent most of the time away on a road trip. Came back, and there's a layer of flocculent, almost gelatinous looking, at the bottom, but the wine is still far from clear.

My son is done with his spring semester, and will be returning home, end of the week. So it looks like I _will_ get to bottle this with him after all. I think this is going to get another round of DualFine/Super Kleer and whatever happens happens. I'd intended, and still intend, this to be something we drink on the deck this summer. Those days are coming quickly...


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## Bliorg (May 12, 2021)

So _mostly_ clear. A little hazy still. Going to let it sit a few more days and rack off the fluff. May hit it with Dual Fine, may just bottle it.


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## heatherd (May 12, 2021)

Bliorg said:


> So _mostly_ clear. A little hazy still. Going to let it sit a few more days and rack off the fluff. May hit it with Dual Fine, may just bottle it.



That's an improvement. Color is good. Maybe just give it a bit more time and then bottle it when you need to drink it. I personally think my wines can sense when I want them done and do absolutely nothing to help.


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## Bliorg (May 23, 2021)

Let’s hope it stays clear.


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## Bliorg (May 23, 2021)

Ended up at 2 cases even. Finished the bottles tonight.


Best part is I had help:


Tasted nice this afternoon. Here’s to hoping things stay golden.


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## Khristyjeff (May 23, 2021)

Bliorg said:


> Ended up at 2 cases even. Finished the bottles tonight.
> View attachment 74864
> 
> Best part is I had help:
> ...


Beautiful wine!


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## Bliorg (Jun 5, 2021)

First taste. Success! Happy with this, after everything.


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## Bliorg (Sep 21, 2021)

Never say never…

Wine threw a sediment in bottle. Just dumped 21 bottles back into a 5.5 gallon BMB. Fining with Dualfine, then letting it settle for at least a couple weeks. Will rack off of that, then filter with #1 and #2 Minijet filters before bottling. Good news is the wine is worth the effort, really nice flavor when dumping bottles. Gotta admit though, I’m ready for this to be DONE.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 21, 2021)

Your experience proves once again that wine making takes patience. Sometimes there's no certain answer without going to a laboratory and that's not practical for 99% of us home wine makers.

Glad to see you got it bottled up and it's currently clear. Even if it throws sediment in a week, a month, or a year that's just the result of the complex chemical reactions that are part of wine making.


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## Bliorg (Sep 23, 2021)

Dualfine can be good stuff:


Clearing again by Scott, on Flickr

Going to let it sit for a while, so all the really fine stuff settles out, then rack, filter, and bottle. Encouraged by this though.


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## Bliorg (Oct 5, 2021)

Okay, so today was bottling day, _again_. After fining with Dual Fine, I let everything sit for two weeks. Wine was _really_ clear. Racked it, conservatively, then filtered through #3 Mini-jet filters. No dripping, no clogging, wine sparkles. Bottled, ended with 18-1/2 bottles. The half is in the fridge for tonight. The rest will get labeled and capsuled tomorrow. My son will be home this weekend coming, so we'll be able to share some, finally.









I'm really happy with the flavor. It seems to have been worth all the effort so far. And learned a ton in the process. All good.

Now fingers crossed that it stays clear this time...


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## Bliorg (Oct 6, 2021)

And it's done.





Had the half bottle last night, very pleased. Fermented with K1-V1116 and cool temps, even after all the trouble there's a lovely aroma with this wine. We'll see how long it lasts - there's a bottle in the fridge now.

Thanks, everyone, for your assistance with this one. Appreciate it.


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## hounddawg (Oct 29, 2021)

Bliorg said:


> Okay, so the wine cleared perfectly. Today was (supposed to be) bottling day. Racked it off the sediment into a bucket. Wine still clear. Filtered from the bucket to a 6.5 gallon BMB. Uh oh. Wine's cloudy again. Let it sit a bit, hoping that it's somehow entrained air from the filtration and will off gas a bit. Nope, got cloudier. To this point, I've degassed this wine for a total of about 20 minutes with a drill-mounted whip. So I figure it's degassed thoroughly, in addition to sitting in a carboy for 4.5 months and being racked a half dozen times. Figure what the hell, I'll try degassing again with the whip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yep . you can't argue with a head of foam like that,
Dawg


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## Bliorg (Nov 21, 2021)

And it won a bronze at the AWS amateur competition!


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## Bluetickjr (Aug 16, 2022)

Bliorg said:


> Hi all -
> 
> So the berry/dragon fruit wine I've been working on, which has had sulfide issues since the second racking (but that I _seem_ to be on the good side of now) was ready for sweetening this week. Wine was totally clear in the carboy. Racked to a bucket (about 6 gallons total), added in 3 teaspoons of sorbate dissolved in maybe a cup of cold water, and also about 1/8 teaspoon K-meta in cold water. Stirred for maybe 3 minutes. Did some taste testing, decided on a low dose of sugar. Added to bucket and stirred thoroughly to dissolve (about 5 minutes), which is my normal protocol. Racked to a clean carboy and airlocked it. Everything was clean and sanitized before using. Walk away from it.
> 
> ...


I see several others comment that what you experiencing is unusual but I get a fair amount of sediment in any non-grape wine I make after I back sweeten it. I simply go thru the sweetening process and let my wine sit for a month in the carboy before I bottle and haven't had any issues doing that. I usually end up with about 3/4" of settled sediment after the month's end.


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## Earldw (Sep 1, 2022)

Nice


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## Venatorscribe (Sep 1, 2022)

nicely polished looking wine. I’m not surprised it’s throwing some sediment as by the look of this feed, you only made the wine in early April. There will still be some micro rearrangement going on within solution. Your wine is probably stressed out by all the frantic processing - if you had just left it in the carboy for six to nine and racked say every two you’d get the same result. My experience with fruit wines I’ve made is, they can keep throwing small amounts of sediment for up to a year.


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## heatherd (Sep 2, 2022)

Congrats on your award!


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