# Norton and Frontenac



## Dougxox (Apr 27, 2011)

new poster but been lurking for a while. Hope this does not get too long... Started my first batch of Norton wine on 10/24/09 with 4 5gal buckets of norton grapes, after destemming by hand and pitching green and bad ones, ended up with 2 5gal buckets of grapes. after hand crushing (surgical gloves come in handy to keep from purple hands ) ended up with 7 gallons of must. Sg= 1.102, ball = 25, pot. alc. = 13.5 all at 60*f. (was not sure of the brix)
I did not use cambden tablets, just went with the natural yeast. On 11/4, SG = 1.015, at that time I pulled the skins and seeds and transfered to 5gal carboy. On 12/27 racked to a second carboy. 5/15/10, racked to 3 1 gal carboys. Did an acid test, between 5.5 and 6.0.
Bottle #1 was as is, no changes.
Bottle #2, added 1 tsp med toast oak chips and 1 tsp pots. bicarb.
Bottle #3, added 1 tsp heavy toats oak and 1 tsp pots, bicarb.
At the moment they are still sitting in the bacement with airlocks on them. 
At some point I guess I need to cold stabelize ( it really should have been done a while back) . I was just playing around to see what happens, and to make wine the way it was a few hundered years ago. Had one 750 bottle with some extra in it, and tried it last month ( no oak or acid adjustment ) it was still on the tart side and smelled like welches grape juice.
Guess my question is where do I go from here?

Question #2, Frontenac, I have 50 plants in the ground from last year ( looking good now with lots of leaves and even some clusters, which I will trim most of off as soon as the monsoons stop). so hopefully next year i will be picking.
Questions here are with being Just south of St. Louis MO. what should I expect from this vigourious grower ( I am thinking just short of Kudsu..lol) with our longer growing season. I know keeping the grapes on the vine longer will reduce the high acid, but how much longer? I plan on doing a batch naturally, and the rest will work with the cambden tabs and commercial yeast. Any recomendations? (our drinking tastes lean to the dry side, ie: cabs and zins )
Also planted at the same time are 50 St. Vincent, and this year I have 50 Tramennette in the ground and will get 50 chardonell in soon, again when our monsoon rains stop enough to get the tractor out with out getting it stuck. any info on these?
BTW, I love this site and have learned alot about wine making. 
Thanks
Doug


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## grapeman (Apr 27, 2011)

I will give a shot at some of the grape parts. Yep, the Frontenac will be very vigorous. If you train it to a double fruiting zone with GDC or 4AK or even something like Scott Henry, it will stay in better balance and ripen better. Leave plenty of grapes on the vines after this year to help control vigor and then you can remove some at veraison or so. Let them hang long enough to get the brix to about 26 so the acid will drop, but will still be around 12-15 g/L TA and pH around 3.0. I used Lalvin 71B-1122 and it is the best Frontenac I have made in 5 years

Traminette can be very vigorous itself. Chardonel makes vey nice wine practically by itself.


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## Dougxox (Apr 27, 2011)

From what I have seen on the site, I like the 4 arm Kiffen system. Just need to start cutting cedar trees for end posts. My vinyards are on a hilltop and get early morning sun to late evening sun. soil is a sandy loam with a nice slope. This is not normal soil for the area, mostly rocks anywhere else. guess I got lucky. 
another question..( they may never stop ) how much juice should I expect from 50 plants? I have been stockpiling both glass and plastic 5 gal carboys, and have a 35 gal plastic bbl. a neighboring vinter has a destemmer/ crusher I can use, that will save the hands from cramping up.


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## grapeman (Apr 28, 2011)

In the third year you could take a half gallon per vine (more is possible but not recommended). The next year you can easily get a gallon, with a gallon and a half possible. (In the research plot I can get 2 gallons per vine).


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## Dougxox (Jul 18, 2011)

I have 2 plants out of 50 (Frontenac) that are very vigouious, so I left some grapes on them to see what they would do, the rest of the plants I striped the buds off this spring. I left about 4 to 5 bunches on each plant and some of them are already ripening. What would be normal harvest time for these? untill I get a brix meter Ill go on taste.
Also some of the plants are budding out again, is this what they call a "second growth"?
Most of my work now is mowing and spraying for Jap beatles.


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## winemaker_3352 (Jul 18, 2011)

Was the norton tart or did you have a more of an astringent taste?

Sometimes the bitterness taste that folks describe is more of the tannin structure.

It could be a combo of both though since you didn't have a TA adjustment done.

For a dry red grape - i like to keep the TA between .60 and .70.

Also - give the tannins some time to mellow out.


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## Dougxox (Jul 25, 2011)

def tart, makes you pucker up lol
Have not tasted it in a while, need to theif some out again.


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## winemaker_3352 (Jul 25, 2011)

Dougxox said:


> def tart, makes you pucker up lol
> Have not tasted it in a while, need to theif some out again.



The pucker sensation is more of an astringent quality than the tartness.

I am going to say it is the tannins - just give it some more time - they will mellow out.


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## Dougxox (Jul 25, 2011)

Just went down and thieft some. did not taste bad, but still smells like welches grape juice, not wine.


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