# Why not mash or juice the fruit?????



## msinc (Jul 9, 2017)

Interested in trying some blackberry wine. There is a ton of wild ones that are ripe right now. I have looked at a bunch of youtube videos and I notice that they all just add the whole berries and kind of stir them around some...it appears when they strain it that for the most part the berries appear almost intact. Why not mash, press or juice them first so you are working with juice instead of a complete berry that looks like it pretty much stays intact??? Maybe another way of asking is, is there a reason to leave the berries intact instead of turning them to juice and using that????? Thanks in advance for any info.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 9, 2017)

I always freeze the fruit, then pour very hot, not boilling, but nearly. Over the top. This ends up with just mush left. I don't juice them, too keep from breaking seeds which can impart bad flavors into the wine.


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## vacuumpumpman (Jul 9, 2017)

I do the same as Craig ^ even blue berries will break open during the freezing stage


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## Scooter68 (Jul 9, 2017)

Whole berries, fresh into a fruit bag will mash up pretty easy by hand. Or you can use an old wooden potato masher or a conical ricer (The latter will get a bit messy) Or as said freeze them. Blackberries will have very little pulp after they break down, basically just the seeds and fiberous heart of the berry is all I have left.

Just avoid blenders or juicers that will destoy the seeds. Depending on the volume you are working with I've found hand mashing with a potato masher works well.

And you are right - A lot of YouTube videos demostrate what NOT to do. Beware those that make it sound super simple. It isn't backbreaking but all too often the methods used are questionable at best. Also, although opinons vary... using at least 5 lbs of berries per gallon works very well. You can go higher but it depends on what you want. The more lbs/gallon you use the more you need to watch things like Acidity.


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## NorCal (Jul 9, 2017)

msinc said:


> Interested in trying some blackberry wine. There is a ton of wild ones that are ripe right now. I have looked at a bunch of youtube videos and I notice that they all just add the whole berries and kind of stir them around some...it appears when they strain it that for the most part the berries appear almost intact. Why not mash, press or juice them first so you are working with juice instead of a complete berry that looks like it pretty much stays intact??? Maybe another way of asking is, is there a reason to leave the berries intact instead of turning them to juice and using that????? Thanks in advance for any info.



There is making a drink with alcohol and there is making a balanced, pleasant wine that you are proud of. Most all on the forum will spend the extra time and care to make the best wine the fruit can possibly make.


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## msinc (Jul 9, 2017)

Thanks for the info and replies...I thought there must be a reason...seeds break open and may cause a taste I don't necessarily want, or one that wont help the end result.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 9, 2017)

msinc said:


> Thanks for the info and replies...I thought there must be a reason...seeds break open and may cause a taste I don't necessarily want, or one that wont help the end result.



You just need to know the nature of the fruit you are using. Some "Seeds" are easy to remove and make sense like plum, cherry, peach, apple. Others are much harder to filter out like strawberry, blackberry, blueberry. One approach is to crush by hand or with a press. (Do Not blend or subject any seeds to metal blades slicing seeds open) THEN remove the fruit bag promptly at the end of primary fermentation This applies for fruits with hard to remove and seeds that may impart undesirable qualities to the finished wine. Some seeds are just so fine that it's virtually impossible to strain them out in a home winery situation without a lot of time and expense for filtering.


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## msinc (Jul 9, 2017)

Several posters mention a "fruit bag"....I am guessing this is some sort of fine mesh or screen like device that you crush the fruit in and leave it in the batch to soak while fermenting????? Any particular fruit bag better than the others??? Where can I get one???? as always, thanks in advance for any info!!!


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## Ajmassa (Jul 9, 2017)

Mostly every local homebrew shop carries them. And morewine.com would also have just about everything you would need. Here's a pic of a Muslin bag- stretchy made from a cheesecloth type material. Small seeds would definitely come through though. 
And the other pic is a mesh brew bag. There's finer material mesh as well- just like paint strainers- for the seeds scooter mentioned.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 10, 2017)

for my next blueberry batch I think my plan to lower the amount of seeds will be as follows:
1) Mash all the blueberries in a single fermentation bucket (No. 1) then place pulp into mesh bag.***
2) Squeeze out as much juice as possible from the filled bag. 
3) Put the fruit bag into Fermentaton bucket (No. 2) 
4) Strain the juice left in the bucket No. 1 through a paint filter or muslin cloth filter to remove the seeds in the juice. Filter into Fermentation bucket No.2 
5) Add everything on the recipe except for the yeast. Wait overnight per normal. Pitch the yeast

*I don't expect to get all the seeds out this way. Maybe not even quite 50% but, I hope that by doing this I can reduce issues with the pH numbers dropping in the first few days of fermentation. * 

Anyone else with suggestions on a better method other than steaming the juice out? 

I'm open to ideas. Since I have over 30 Blueberry bushes that hopefully will average around 10lbs each as they mature.... Blueberry wine is going to be a considerable part of the wine I make in the future. I already have a 3 gallon batch into the aging process for this year. Might just start another smaller batch of 2 gallons in 2 carboys and run one without and one with this filtering process just to see what happens.

***Perhaps making a muslin cloth into fruit bag might work as well and contain the seeds within. Still filter but use the muslin bag to reduce the sediment and seeds seepage in during primary.


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## msinc (Jul 10, 2017)

Scooter68, I have to ask...what's the problem with "steaming the juice out"???? Sounds like you don't want to do it this way, is there a reason???? Thanks.


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2017)

Starting with frozen berries, mine are thawed and all additions are made to properly adjust pH and BRIX, along with pectin enzyme. At the end of fermentation, I press just like grapes, rack like grape wine, and have no problems controlling the pH or seeds.


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## Stressbaby (Jul 10, 2017)

Johnd said:


> Starting with frozen berries, mine are thawed and all additions are made to properly adjust pH and BRIX, along with pectin enzyme. At the end of fermentation, I press just like grapes, rack like grape wine, and have no problems controlling the pH or seeds.



Ditto. And my rosé is made just like rosé from grapes. @Johnd, what do you adjust your pH to for the blueberry wine?


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2017)

Stressbaby said:


> Ditto. And my rosé is made just like rosé from grapes. @Johnd, what do you adjust your pH to for the blueberry wine?



I use potassium bicarbonate, in small quantities, mix well and measure often until I get into the 3.1 - 3.2ish range. My inlaws berries usually come in around 2.9 or so, it's not a big adjustment and is pretty easily accomplished.


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## pip (Jul 10, 2017)

I've made, maybe a hundred, batches from freshly picked wild blackberries, as the OP questioned, and i reckon its good to gently mash the fruit and add boiling, or near boiling, water and also k-meta once its cooled a bit. (i dont use a fruit bag for fresh blackberries) The big question is quality vs quantity. The more fruit you add per gallon of water the better the quality, that is body and flavor. With fresh berries, that's the big issue, in my opinion.

I'm a drinker, so i make sure i've got lots and lots of bottles on the shelf for my everyday drink but i also like to make wine that is really appreciated by others and that i can open for myself and friends on special occasions. So if you have heaps of wild blackberries to hand i reckon you might consider making a few different qualities. Put on lots of different buckets, with different quantities and strengths and different additives like spices and oak chips and tannins etc.

Having access to wild blackberries, as i've recently discovered, is an absolute privilege, make the most of it. 

Also, finally, after grape, its my view the blackberry is second on the list of fruits that make good wine.


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## wineforfun (Jul 10, 2017)

msinc said:


> Several posters mention a "fruit bag"....I am guessing this is some sort of fine mesh or screen like device that you crush the fruit in and leave it in the batch to soak while fermenting????? Any particular fruit bag better than the others??? Where can I get one???? as always, thanks in advance for any info!!!



Check your local hardware store, ie: Menards, Home Depot, etc. I pick up a 3pk. of paint strainer bags at Menards for $3.


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## Scooter68 (Jul 10, 2017)

msinc said:


> Scooter68, I have to ask...what's the problem with "steaming the juice out"???? Sounds like you don't want to do it this way, is there a reason???? Thanks.



Short answer - The equipment and the time to juice. Also I like to avoid heating up any fruit that doesn't have to be heated. The wine I make may not be a "Health Drink" but I still don't like to do anything that might affect the final flavor.

I may be standing alone in the field but I prefer not to tamper with the natural flavors of the wine I'm making. I know we all add the basic chemicals and some embellish the flavor (Oak Chips, other fruit flavors etc) more than others for their own reasons and I have nothing against that at all. Just for me I prefer to keep is simple as much as is reasonable. 

I just got back from buying a bushel of overripe peaches from a local orchard (Not too cheap anymore at $33.00 for a bushel-approx 55 lbs before de-stoning and cutting out bad parts) All I will do to those is de-stone, chop fairly fine and put in a fruit bag to mash. I blended some of the last batch BIG mistake so much air in there it was almost like a pudding in consistency. Couldn't get a solid SG reading for at least 24 hours after that.


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## msinc (Jul 10, 2017)

pip said:


> .......The more fruit you add per gallon of water the better the quality, that is body and flavor. With fresh berries, that's the big issue, in my opinion.......



It seems like to me that, as above, the more fruit you can get into a liquid and into the wine the better???? Let's just suppose you could separate the seeds from the fruit first, wouldn't it be best to pulverize and/or completely liquefy the fruit as much as possible??? Or, is it a thing where you get to a point that most of what you are getting in there {if you could do it this way} would just fall out as "tailings" and get removed anyway in the clarification process???
I mean, I don't mind spending the extra time it takes to do this, after all...I am the one that will be drinking it. It just appears that a lot of fruit gets thrown out when it is simply soaked in the jug. Then again, maybe this is how you get the best {and only the best} flavor into the wine????
Thanks a million for all the replies and info!!!!!



Scooter68 said:


> .....All I will do to those is de-stone, chop fairly fine and put in a fruit bag to mash........



Okay, so at this point if you had a juicer could/would you simply run the fruit pieces thru the juice machine???? Seems like it would be faster and render more liquid??? Don't even need to chop fine, just has to fit down the chute.


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## mikewatkins727 (Jul 11, 2017)

msinc said:


> . . . Okay, so at this point if you had a juicer could/would you simply run the fruit pieces thru the juice machine???? Seems like it would be faster and render more liquid??? Don't even need to chop fine, just has to fit down the chute.



I have used the technique of putting my apples through a juice machine. I will tell you it is not faster. The reason I used this method was I was harvesting my own apples from a few tress and not getting bushels at a time. I got ounces of juice at a time but I froze the juice until I got a gallon's worth. The problem was the amount of pulp I had to dispose at a time. However, the end product was worth the effort and I bought a better juicer.

The pulp went to the chickens which composted it in 24 hours!

Mike


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## Scooter68 (Jul 11, 2017)

If you have a juicer and the time it's up to you. I try to use what I already have and if you already have a juicer then the others have told you about the time it take.

I'm cutting up peaches today and will then 'Juice' them with a stainless steel 'ricer.' (See picture) Sure it's a little work but for me this is the way. Better control of what happens to my fruit and again I don't expose the fruit to high temps. I want the pulp and skins in my wine bucket to draw all the flavor out that I can. Ideally the residue from my fruit bag would sucked of it's flavor and 'essences' into the wine.

By the way I am 100% retired so I have time. Money isn't a serious issue but I don't want to invest a ton in this hobby either. Gotta get back to slicing and jucing the peaches. (52 pounds of peaches before destoning etc)


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## prather01 (Aug 2, 2017)

I know this is an old post, but I am new to wine making and do have a few questions. I have a Tribest Slowstar Juicer, so relatively no heat, and it comes with a sorbet attachment, so all it does is crush the fruit into very fine particles for making sorbets, butter, etc.

My questions it, regarding using this for wine:
1) What would be the difference in using the juicer, that removes skins and most pulp vs using the sorbet attachement that simply crushes?

2) Which should I use, or neither?

I would be removing seeds from apples, peaches, pears, and any fruit where it is possible.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 2, 2017)

One approach would be just juice them like you would normally do (Removing seeds & stems as you mentioned.) THEN take the pulp and put that in a fruit bag to extract the maximum of flavors, aromas, and "essences" of the fruit. With red/dark grapes the skins are considered essential to the wine. With fruits it depends on what contribution the fruit skins may make. You may decide with a particular fruit to toss the skins after juicing but I'd research about any fruit before doing that. Perhaps with Kiwi I could see it.


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## greyday (Aug 7, 2017)

I use a steam juicer, and I also freeze the berries (mostly because I get them from a bunch of different places: my own yard, u-picks, friends' houses, etc). Steam juicers are really good at spearating solid from liquid (pitting is still necessary with stone fruits, of course), and whatever little solids get left end up mixed in with the lees, so on first rack it's pretty clean. Turns out great, and I usually don't need to up the SG TOO much (about 1/2-3/4 LB inverted sugar per gallon). If you want to do purely fruit wine (i.e., no added sugar) you can either end up with a lower ABV or you can boil off some of the water to bring the SG up, either works.


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## prather01 (Aug 7, 2017)

Thanks for the info, I was thinking about doing that for apples, pears, and peaches this fall. I've seen a lot of apple wines made from apple cider, so if I juice my apples, pears, or peaches, it should be about the same thing I would think.


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## Ehren (Aug 7, 2017)

*Victorio Juicer?*

I have been making blackberry wine for the last 6 years running, and all have been pretty good! I had a friend who boiled his berries, and lost most of the flavor in the process. I have never used a steam extraction or any method with heat because I'm afraid to ruin the fruit. The first 2 years I 1) smashed all the berries I could by hand... takes forever, and doesn't really work well, and 2) used a potato masher to smash them all... still not very effective.

Then I found one of these little suckers!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001I7FP54/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It still generates a pretty good sized mess, but it juices the berries perfectly and ejects the seeds intact so you can either remove them right of the bat, or bag them and let them ferment for a few days to break down any remaining flesh before pulling them out to avoid the bitterness that occurs after fermenting with seeds for too long.

I did this with over 100lbs of berries last year, and netted about 9 gallons of the most delicious wine I have made to date! Now its time to get back out there and pick some more!

Good luck!


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## EmPyReAl_BrEwIng (Aug 8, 2017)

I recently made blackberry wine and made the mistake of juicing them. Ended up with tiny fibers that were almost impossible to filter out of the juice.


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## msinc (Aug 8, 2017)

I haven't done anything but freeze the berries I have so far. Still gathering info on the best {if there is a best} way to "render" the berries. I will say this about my juicer, whats left has almost no flavor or aroma to it...just a big batch of fluff. The juice machine I have is very fast. That's kinda what got me to thinking about it. It makes liquid out of whatever I throw in the top chute just as fast as I can stuff the thing, so as far as being slow or tedious I don't have that problem. In fact I find it interesting that folks remark so much about how slow something is....when they are making wine!!! Strange to worry about "speed" when there is nothing whatsoever "quick" about doing any of this. I mean, rush, rip and race to make juice so you can.......wait 2 years to drink it?????
I am certain no seeds could get thru the screen on my juice machine, but I am worried that some will get ground up and impart that bitter wood taste I know I don't want in there. Maybe I just need to try a small test batch and examine the seed remnants...if they appear to be intact then it should be no problem. It's funny, I juice apples and oranges all the time and do not remove the seeds. I never noticed any off flavor in the juice just to sit and drink it. Then again, I never checked on the condition of the seeds afterwards either and I never tried it any other way. Time to do some test with the juice machine. Again, not worried too much about speed or effort, but compared to some of the options I have seen there is way less mess, it would be way faster and easier if it could be done without harm to the end product.


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## Stressbaby (Aug 8, 2017)

FWIW, my blackberry ferments out fine and I don't do any of these things.

I freeze the fruit, then toss it all in a bucket with no water. Add pectic enzyme and make the adjustments. Ferment it out to nearly dry, then press. I do line the press basket with a mesh bag, it helps you recover a little more wine that way by minimizing the losses on that first racking off the gross lees.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 8, 2017)

I have several options now. My press is not my favorite so I have found that it works with some fruits well AFTER fermentation. Before I will either hand crush in a fruit bag, use my new auger juicer, or use one of these. Thats a 24" hand so I don't have to get my hands down in the bucket and must. (Just bought this for $10.00)


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## msinc (Aug 8, 2017)

Scooter68 said:


> I have several options now. My press is not my favorite so I have found that it works with some fruits well AFTER fermentation. Before I will either hand crush in a fruit bag, use my new auger juicer, or use one of these. Thats a 24" hand so I don't have to get my hands down in the bucket and must. (Just bought this for $10.00)



Does your auger juicer crush or otherwise alter the seeds themselves when you use it for blackberries??? Thanks in advance for any and all info. Out of all your options which one is your favorite???


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## Scooter68 (Aug 8, 2017)

msinc said:


> Does your auger juicer crush or otherwise alter the seeds themselves when you use it for blackberries??? Thanks in advance for any and all info. Out of all your options which one is your favorite???



My Juicer will if the seeds or 'Hearts' of the berries are big enough. BUT I don't see the need to put blackberries, blueberries or Raspberries (Black or Red) through a juicer - They crush so easily. What I will use and have used in the past is the potato masher. Does just fine with berries in a fruit bag.

As to my favorite... It depends on the fruit. Apples - definitely the Juicer. 
Peachers & Berries of any sort - The Potato masher. 
The Press is something I wasted my money as far as I'm concerned. It worked yesterday to press peaches - AFTER fermentation was done to get the last of the liquid out of them. BUT it's messy to work with and clean up and it can only press soft things and the potato masher doesn't take that long to use or clean. AND I can use the potato masher during fermentation to see how the fruit is breaking down and encourage it along. For $10.00 on Amazon that's the best deal.


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## msinc (Aug 9, 2017)

Thank you sir, I will go ahead and get me one of those hand masher rigs.....I was afraid the juicer would cut up the seeds and blackberries also have a thing in the middle that probably don't taste too good if it got ground up and some parts got thru the juicer either. Raspberries would probably work though...that middle thing stays on the stem when you pick them. Too bad, cause the juicer I have is very fast and cleans up easy...it also gets all of the juice that can possibly be had. The sluff left behind hardly even has any smell.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 9, 2017)

msinc said:


> Too bad, cause the juicer I have is very fast and cleans up easy...it also gets all of the juice that can possibly be had. The sluff left behind hardly even has any smell.



Hmmm sounds like you are talking about a centrifugal juicer. As I understand those incorporate a lot of air into the fruit and cause rapid oxidation and heat, both of which are not good for producing the best wine. If you go to the thread on the Country Fruit Wine Making part of this forum and look up the Apple Q thread you can see some posts on that issue. At the bottom of the 3rd page: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57372&page=3


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## msinc (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks again, I'll check it out. Zero heat added with the one I have though...it is centrifugal. All the juice is always the same temp as the fruit that goes in. I guess you could always refrigerate the berries to get them almost to freezing point if the heat is the culprit.


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## AuntBee (Aug 9, 2017)

msinc said:


> Scooter68, I have to ask...what's the problem with "steaming the juice out"???? Sounds like you don't want to do it this way, is there a reason???? Thanks.


Did you get an answer to your steam question. I have about 95 pounds I am going to begin to steam juice. It us eady, I catch any seeds that try to escape wirh a tea strainer over the top of the big pot. The seeds do not get crushed....so I was wondering the same thing. Steam juicing is very easy. Thoughts?


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## AuntBee (Aug 9, 2017)

Ehren said:


> I have been making blackberry wine for the last 6 years running, and all have been pretty good! I had a friend who boiled his berries, and lost most of the flavor in the process. I have never used a steam extraction or any method with heat because I'm afraid to ruin the fruit. The first 2 years I 1) smashed all the berries I could by hand... takes forever, and doesn't really work well, and 2) used a potato masher to smash them all... still not very effective.
> 
> Then I found one of these little suckers!
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001I7FP54/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> ...


I have one of those Victorio Food strainers, and love it for many things like getting the rest of the sauce from the pulp. (Tomatoes, blackberries, apples, pears...) I have been using a Victorio Steam juicer to make blackberry juice and my juice is dark, strong and often fairly sweet. With added 100% cane sugar it is as good or better than strong Welch's grape juice. I am not sure how everyone is concerned about flavor loss, as I get seedless, strong flavorfull juice using this method. ..but then I don't know how to make wine. I might be over my head in this group. I will continue to read.


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## msinc (Aug 9, 2017)

AuntBee said:


> Did you get an answer to your steam question. I have about 95 pounds I am going to begin to steam juice. It us eady, I catch any seeds that try to escape wirh a tea strainer over the top of the big pot. The seeds do not get crushed....so I was wondering the same thing. Steam juicing is very easy. Thoughts?



Well, the answer I got was that the heat from the steam process may be detrimental to the making of wine. Seems the heat may alter or at least somehow reduce the flavor or maybe impart unwanted flavors into the wine. 
Most folks that make jelly do it with steam or heat and it doesn't alter or otherwise reduce the flavor, but.....you don't go thru the fermenting process to make jelly or preserves either. It would be interesting to try two batches identical with the exception of the way the juice was rendered to see if there is a palatable difference.


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## WineYooper (Aug 11, 2017)

Have been making blackberry for years and have always frozen berries first. My batches are usually 6 gal so around 30# of berries, all wild berries. I thaw in mesh bag in primary so as not to lose any juice, squeeze well when thawed and after ferment has started daily along with stirring must. When I squeeze daily, as the berries break down, I tie another knot in the mesh bag below the first knot. It can be a little tricky but it helps keep the fruit consolidated and makes the bag smaller in the primary. Try it and you will discover why I use this method. Blackberry is my favorite and guests love it as well.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 12, 2017)

WineYooper - I like that method. Only thing I hate about the fruit bags is cleaning them afterwards - The time and effort to rinse out all those little pieces of fruit. But then if it was easy everyone would be doing it at home.
Blackberry, Blueberry, and Black Raspberry are the easiest to get all the juice out and to crush no need to steam, use a press or juicer. Nothing wrong with doing that but to me it's not needed.


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