# Sourdough Starters



## montanaWineGuy

I now have 2 starters fermenting. 1 with bread yeast, and the other with wine yeast. If there is no difference in taste I'll combine them, but I'm hoping the wine yeast will give a more flavorful taste to the bread.

Sourdough French Bread <------------


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## BernardSmith

I would have thought that sourdough does not in fact use saccharomyces cerevisiae, but lactic and other bacteria that sour the dough. I have made bread with ale dough and with the sediment from mead but I was not looking for a 'sour dough', although next time I brew a batch of beer_ _my plan is to hold back a few cups of the spent grains and allow them to sour and use that liquor to sour the dough. Is your technique to make a sponge and then allow the sponge to age a week or ten days before incorporating more flour into the dough and then baking the bread? 
_[FONT=&quot]
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_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_cerevisiae_


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## montanaWineGuy

I used this recipe. Pretty simple. Do use a container with 2x the volume. My fermentation was very fast, and spilled over the jar's top within 30 minutes.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/SourdoughStarter.htm

I have a mixer showing up sometime Wednesday, so sourdough bread Thursday. Yum!


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## GreginND

BernardSmith said:


> I would have thought that sourdough does not in fact use saccharomyces cerevisiae, but lactic and other bacteria that sour the dough. I have made bread with ale dough and with the sediment from mead but I was not looking for a 'sour dough', although next time I brew a batch of beer_ _my plan is to hold back a few cups of the spent grains and allow them to sour and use that liquor to sour the dough. Is your technique to make a sponge and then allow the sponge to age a week or ten days before incorporating more flour into the dough and then baking the bread?
> _[FONT=&quot]
> [/FONT]_
> _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_cerevisiae_



It is my understanding that sourdough is a living culture containing both yeast for lift and LAB for sourness.


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## montanaWineGuy

The starter with the wine yeast is taking off. More then doubled in volume, while the regular yeast is less then double. Suppose to be the other way around.

I'm ready for my mixer, NOW!


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## montanaWineGuy

The starter wasn't quite ready, hadn't started making a sour smell yet. Still, very tasty and lots of flavorful holes in the bread. Sourdough pizza tomorrow and the starter is finally starting to smell like it's ready to be sour.


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## BernardSmith

Nice crust. Was that from a high temp oven or from an egg wash?


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## montanaWineGuy

BernardSmith said:


> Nice crust. Was that from a high temp oven or from an egg wash?



Egg wash. 1st time, and I like the results.


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## BernardSmith

I used the recipe you cited and made a bunch of sourdough rolls on Wednesday and while the starter was still too young to be truly sour the rolls came out very well. I will feed the starter for another week or so and then make another batch and see if the dough has more 'bite' to the flavor. So thanks for the post.


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## montanaWineGuy

Been over 3 weeks since I got my starter going, and it's taken on a nice smell like I expected. I use it regularly, and so it has been worked on quite a bit. Next evolution is baking in a cast iron Dutch Oven. While I wait to get the DO, I'm attempting to bake a loaf in my Crock Pot. This one should be interesting.


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## GreginND

Ah, yes. I bake my bread in a Le Creuset pot. You need to change out the plastic handle for a steel one if you want to heat it to 500 degrees. I pre-heat it at 500 - throw in the bread and cover it. The steam helps it rise. After about 30 min I take the lid off to brown it up.


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## JohnT

GreginND said:


> Ah, yes. I bake my bread in a Le Creuset pot. You need to change out the plastic handle for a steel one if you want to heat it to 500 degrees. I pre-heat it at 500 - throw in the bread and cover it. The steam helps it rise. After about 30 min I take the lid off to brown it up.



You know the rules... it never really happened....


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## montanaWineGuy

I'm looking to get this Lodge Dutch Oven.


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## GreginND

That's a nice pot. But I would prefer a handle on the top to lift the lid. When you preheat the pot to very high temperatures, it would be difficult to get that top off with your hands in oven mitts.


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## montanaWineGuy

GreginND said:


> That's a nice pot. But I would prefer a handle on the top to lift the lid. When you preheat the pot to very high temperatures, it would be difficult to get that top off with your hands in oven mitts.



The lid acts as a skillet also. The secret to lifting the lid is to have it offset from the lower handles so it's an easy grab and straight lift.


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## Winenoob66

This is the starter I use:

Sourdough Starter

3 tablespoons instant mashed potato flakes
3 tablespoons white sugar
1 cup warm water
2 1/4 teaspoons active dry yeast

Directions

1. Combine instant potatoes, sugar, water, and yeast 
in a covered container. Let the starter sit on a counter 
for 5 days, stirring daily with a wooden spoon. 
2. On the morning of the fifth day, feed the starter with 
3 tablespoons instant potatoes, 3 tablespoons sugar, and 
1 cup warm water. In the evening, take out 1 cup of the starter 
to use in a sourdough recipe. Refrigerate the remaining starter. 
3. Every five days, feed the starter 3 tablespoons instant 
potatoes, 3 tablespoons sugar and 1 cup water. If starter 
is to be used in a recipe, let the fed starter rest at room 
temperature 6 hours before use. If starter is not being used 
in a recipe, keep refrigerated and discard 1 cup of starter 
after each feeding. 

This is my bread recipe also:

SOURDOUGH BREAD

1 cup sourdough starter
1 1/2 cups warm water
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 cup white sugar
1/2 cup corn oil
6 cups bread flour

Directions 
1 Mix sugar, corn oil, salt, water, and 1 cup of starter 
together in a large bowl. Sift the flour and add to the mixture. 
Grease or oil the dough. Place the dough in an oiled bowl, 
cover, and let rise overnight. 
2 The next day, knead the dough for 10 minutes. Divide in half, 
and place into two greased 4 x 8 inch bread pans. Allow the dough 
to double in size. 
3 Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 40 to 45 minutes, 
or until bread is golden brown and taps hollow. Turn out to cool 
on wire racks.


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## Winenoob66

As with most starters though, the older it is the better it gets.


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## montanaWineGuy

Winenoob66 said:


> As with most starters though, the older it is the better it gets.



I'm learning that. I'm so into it I bought a special jar for the starter. Glass lid for the glass jar, with a lip so it can breath. What's so cool is I no longer add yeast to the bread mix. Self rising, same ingredients, just some of it readies itself in the fridge over a weeks time.


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## montanaWineGuy

I've been struggling with my Sourdough lately. Following the recipe is hit or miss, depending on how wet your starter is. To adjust for this I've increased my starter quantity, and now add flour incrementally to achieve a moist sticky dough. Additionally, I now have a Trivet at the bottom of the Dutch Oven that allows me to add a bit of water. This will create a boiling vapor in the sealed DO. Now my Sourdough bread is finally approaching San Francisco Style Sourdough flavor. 

I've also started to toss different things into my starter. Different types of flour, beer, wine, whatever...


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## BernardSmith

Yeah... but I doubt that your bread will ever really develop a true SF sourdough flavor. Terroir is really critical - I am not being ironic. The particular variety of bacteria and yeast that makes up SF sourdough does not exist anywhere except in SF and by all accounts, even if you were to capture a critical mass of the leavening agents there and bring them home, the flour, the water, the food you feed the sourdough, all will slowly , slowly transform the character of the starter into one that more resembles other more local starters. That is the nature of the beast..


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## montanaWineGuy

BernardSmith said:


> Yeah... but I doubt that your bread will ever really develop a true SF sourdough flavor. Terroir is really critical - I am not being ironic. The particular variety of bacteria and yeast that makes up SF sourdough does not exist anywhere except in SF and by all accounts, even if you were to capture a critical mass of the leavening agents there and bring them home, the flour, the water, the food you feed the sourdough, all will slowly , slowly transform the character of the starter into one that more resembles other more local starters. That is the nature of the beast..



I'm going to get damn awfully close. My next loaf will have the addition of some salt in the water to flavor the steam, and I'm expecting something wonderful.


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## ibglowin

Looks good enough for me!


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## montanaWineGuy

I made a pizza the other day, and further explored my wet sticky dough theory. This dough was so sticky that if I poked it, I had dough sticking to my finger tip. Even after sprinkling it with flour, several hours later it was wet and sticky to the touch.

The pizza dough came out great. I mean really really great. 

In High School friends and I would go to our favorite pizza shop and indulge, in the best Sour Dough pizza ever created. This was my goal. I'm there!


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## montanaWineGuy

Okay. Jury is back. Another loaf of Sourdough bread, in Dutch Oven, super wet sticky dough, above Trivet, salted steam added to DO before going into oven, and YES, YES!!!!!!! --- San Francisco Sourdough Bread. 

Stand Back, don't anybody move.... Mine, all mine, all all mine...


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## montanaWineGuy

And it just gets better and better. Monday has become bread baking day. 

The wet sticky dough makes bread that stays fresh tasting all week long.


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## JohnT

So, Did you follow the recipe to the letter (as far as ingredients)?
Did you do a 6 cup batch of dough?

What kind of yeast did you use for your starter?
Did you let the dough rise overnight? In the Fridge or on the counter?

A detailed step by step on exactly how you got to SF SD Bread would be much appreciated!


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## montanaWineGuy

JohnT said:


> So, Did you follow the recipe to the letter (as far as ingredients)?
> Did you do a 6 cup batch of dough?
> 
> What kind of yeast did you use for your starter?
> Did you let the dough rise overnight? In the Fridge or on the counter?
> 
> A detailed step by step on exactly how you got to SF SD Bread would be much appreciated!



No more recipe for me. And my starter is now free wheeling. I add all purpose flour, bread flour, wheat flour, etc. Sometimes I put beer or wine or water in depending on what I have handy or is within reach. IMO, the break thru was the very very wet sticky dough and leaving it on the counter, covered for 8 hours is enough. Bottom line, experiment and have fun with it.


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## BernardSmith

*sourdough starter - a question about yeast and enzymes*

I don't want to hijack this thread but something has been niggling me for the last few weeks. I make sourdough (although I am terrible at husbanding the starter and have to restart the starter very often - but that , as they say , is another story), and here's my question:
Wild yeasts are used to eat the sugars in the flour... but brewers need to convert the carbohydrates in the grain to fermentable sugars BEFORE any yeast can ferment the sugars. How is it that in bread making (sourdough or regular) the yeast has no problem dealing with the flour without any help from the baker but the brewer needs to initiate enzymatic reactions (mashing) to open up the crushed grain for the yeast?


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## montanaWineGuy

I can't help in answering your q, but I will add. I'm using my starter once a week and leave it in the fridge between uses. The one time I didn't get to it, I had to toss a cups worth and it was good to go in a couple of days. 

I did read, but didn't believe it, but the starter does need to sit out the night before use. Big air pockets form in the bread when this is done. Lots of little things make a difference. I've been slowly experimenting and finding what works best for me, and my best expectations have been exceeded.


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## BernardSmith

montanaWineGuy said:


> I can't help in answering your q, but I will add. I'm using my starter once a week and leave it in the fridge between uses. The one time I didn't get to it, I had to toss a cups worth and it was good to go in a couple of days.
> 
> I did read, but didn't believe it, but the starter does need to sit out the night before use. Big air pockets form in the bread when this is done. Lots of little things make a difference. I've been slowly experimenting and finding what works best for me, and my best expectations have been exceeded.



OK... but "sitting out" may simply mean that the internal temperature of the starter rises to ambient room temp and that may simply make the yeast more active (and the bacteria)... (they would be sluggish (at best) at low temperatures which is why they do better at about 70F


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## montanaWineGuy

BernardSmith said:


> OK... but "sitting out" may simply mean that the internal temperature of the starter rises to ambient room temp and that may simply make the yeast more active (and the bacteria)... (they would be sluggish (at best) at low temperatures which is why they do better at about 70F



A likely explanation. But since the cold starter mixed/kneaded then sits out in the open at room temp for 8 hours or so, plenty of time for the starter to do its thing, once being cold not a factor....

All I know is it works, and its what I now do.


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## ceeaton

BernardSmith said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread but something has been niggling me for the last few weeks. I make sourdough (although I am terrible at husbanding the starter and have to restart the starter very often - but that , as they say , is another story), and here's my question:
> Wild yeasts are used to eat the sugars in the flour... but brewers need to convert the carbohydrates in the grain to fermentable sugars BEFORE any yeast can ferment the sugars. How is it that in bread making (sourdough or regular) the yeast has no problem dealing with the flour without any help from the baker but the brewer needs to initiate enzymatic reactions (mashing) to open up the crushed grain for the yeast?



For breads to rise you only need the yeast to convert some of the carbohydrates in flour to CO2/flavors to help the bread rise. It is not a complete degradation of the starches into other chemicals, ie. starch is left in the finished product in significant quantity. As long as some glutens (protein in nature) are formed during kneeding, a structure will be produced that can capture some of the CO2 to help aid in the bread rising.

In beer fermentation you need to convert the starches into a form that can be ALMOST completely digested into alcohol/flavor (yeast by products)/CO2 by the yeast. Too many left over starches and proteins will leave a haze (ex. wheat beers). Some higher sugars (dextrins) are not broken down (at least in ales) during fermentation and augment the body of the finished product. Brewer's yeast can attack some starches, but it isn't a direct food source, unless no other "preferred" sources are available.

This is an incredibly simplistic broad view, but it would take several thousand pages to completely illustrate what goes on. Kudos to the biochemists in our midst.


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## BernardSmith

ceeaton said:


> For breads to rise you only need the yeast to convert some of the carbohydrates in flour to CO2/flavors to help the bread rise. It is not a complete degradation of the starches into other chemicals, ie. starch is left in the finished product in significant quantity. As long as some glutens (protein in nature) are formed during kneeding, a structure will be produced that can capture some of the CO2 to help aid in the bread rising.
> 
> In beer fermentation you need to convert the starches into a form that can be ALMOST completely digested into alcohol/flavor (yeast by products)/CO2 by the yeast. Too many left over starches and proteins will leave a haze (ex. wheat beers). Some higher sugars (dextrins) are not broken down (at least in ales) during fermentation and augment the body of the finished product. Brewer's yeast can attack some starches, but it isn't a direct food source, unless no other "preferred" sources are available.
> 
> This is an incredibly simplistic broad view, but it would take several thousand pages to completely illustrate what goes on. Kudos to the biochemists in our midst.


 
Aha! And that might explain why you need to constantly feed the starter when making sourdough - the available sugars in the flour are very limited ... Thanks Craig... That was really very helpful.


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## montanaWineGuy

BernardSmith said:


> Aha! And that might explain why you need to constantly feed the starter when making sourdough - the available sugars in the flour are very limited ... Thanks Craig... That was really very helpful.



So add a bit of sugar to extend the time between uses?


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## BernardSmith

But you want the yeast and bacteria to work on the flour. Wouldn't adding sugar change the flavor profile from a lactic heavy fermentation to a more yeast like one and one where the yeast are working on sucrose or fructose and not on the sugars from the grains ?


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## montanaWineGuy

Probably. Earlier today I added a 1/3 flour + 1/3 water. Seems to have given it a better look.


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