# Timing of skins removal



## Sourgrape (Oct 26, 2016)

Kit: Cellar Craft Showcase Amarone 6 week kit with grape skins
Actual OG: 1.093
Target OG: 1.080 – 1.100
Target gravity at end of primary: 1.000 or lower
Current fermentation temperature: 69 F (48 hours after pitching)

Hi everyone. After two years of brewing beer, I started my first ever wine kit. The instructions say to leave the lid loose, and stir every day during primary fermentation, which lasts 10-12 days, which I am doing. I’ve weighted the grape skins down by placing a small sanitized drinking glass in the mesh bag, which keeps them sitting at the bottom.

My question is this:

Should I stop stirring and remove the grape skins two days before transferring to the secondary? 

My concern is, removing the skins bag just before transfer – like the instructions indicate - will disturb much of the lees and debris, which will not have time to settle back down to the bottom. The instructions assume that the skins will be floating on top. Mine are weighted at the bottom, which guarantees disturbing the sediment during removal.

So, unless I’m advised otherwise, my plan thus far is this:

1) Check gravity on Day 10. If it has dropped to or below my target of 1.000, then…

2) Remove the grape skin bag, squeeze out the excess juice, and give the must one last good stir.

3) Leave it sit for an additional 48 hours, completely undisturbed.

4) Transfer to secondary on Day 12, being careful to leave as much debris behind as possible.



If I’m doing something wrong here, please save me from myself!

Thanks in advance for any replies.


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## salcoco (Oct 26, 2016)

looks like a good plan. I would suggest racking again in three days which are not in the instruction. but this will allow any other debris that is transferred from the primary to settle. these other "gross" lees can caused odor problems latter. once racked follow the instructions.


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2016)

If you can get 10 days on the skins without being dry, that'd be a good plan. Otherwise, I'd want to be on the skins as long as possible. I've never removed skins more than a few minutes prior to that first racking.


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## AZMDTed (Oct 26, 2016)

There's nothing wrong with getting some of the sediment transferred into the carboy at secondary, in fact it's unavoidable. Some of those things may still be good yeasties who are just napping after gorging so much, so don't worry about it. When you transfer from secondary is when you want to be more careful.

If this were a wine from grapes then it would be different, but we don't have stems and leaves and such in kit wines that can leave the wrong kind of tannins if left for too long.


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## Sourgrape (Oct 26, 2016)

salcoco said:


> looks like a good plan. I would suggest racking again in three days which are not in the instruction. but this will allow any other debris that is transferred from the primary to settle. these other "gross" lees can caused odor problems latter. once racked follow the instructions.



Thanks for the reply. Coming over from the beer making side, I have an aversion to racking more often than necessary. But I realize that I'll need to check most of my assumptions at the door, since wine making is a totally different craft.


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## Sourgrape (Oct 26, 2016)

I agree that maximum time on the skins is desirable. I wonder if just doing a longer primary then would be worth it. Say 14 days, with skin removal after 12 instead of ten? Coming over from the beer making side of things, I am not at all averse to a longer primary if that is a good idea. But I don't know if maybe there are reasons why the transfer should be done by day 12.


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## Sourgrape (Oct 26, 2016)

So if I understand correctly, the main purpose of that first transfer is not to get it off the lees, but simply to get it into a carboy with less head space to limit oxidation?


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## AZMDTed (Oct 26, 2016)

It's primarily to get your wine away from oxygen, not so much headspace. Once the yeast slow down their CO2 production there is less of a dense CO2 cap sitting over your fermenting wine. That's why kits go to secondary before they're done cooking, so that what headspace there is can be filled up with CO2 instead of oxygen. That's also why you put the airlock on in secondary.

As far as lees you don't want to keep moving all the dead yeast from stage to stage, but it's not the main purpose of going from primary to secondary and shouldn't be a huge concern.


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## DoctorCAD (Oct 26, 2016)

Tim Vandergrift, who practically invented kit wines, is currently doing an experiment where he is making a kit with grape pack exactly as the instructions state and right next to it he is leaving the skins in for 6 weeks.

Too bad we won't know the outcome for a year! The perils of winemaking.


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## Voltron (Oct 26, 2016)

Tim has posted an update video on his experiment today..very interesting i thought


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## Norton (Oct 26, 2016)

Any idea as to his process of leaving it on the skins that long? I'm curious as to,whether he left it in the initial bucket somehow or if he had skins in a carboy.


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## Brian55 (Oct 26, 2016)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ub7jTYqp-k[/ame]


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 26, 2016)

Interesting analysis. Now, how to do extended maceration on a kit with skins.


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## Brian55 (Oct 26, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Interesting analysis. Now, how to do extended maceration on a kit with skins.



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qkKYoym2g4[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdpy02-JGSI[/ame]


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## Mismost (Oct 26, 2016)

thanks Brian55....that was very interesting!


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## Norton (Oct 27, 2016)

I am guessing from the way that the carboy is stored in the video that he did not punch down the skins for either one during the process.


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## Boatboy24 (Oct 27, 2016)

Really interesting stuff @Brian55 . Wondering if he was punching down/stirring those skins during the whole 9 weeks or if he got to a point where he just let them sit.

This is in the style of the Intrinsic Cabernet, which (IIRC) is on the skins for 9 months.


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## Johnd (Oct 27, 2016)

I'm sure if someone knew how to get in touch with Tim he'd be happy to share the intimate details of the process. Thinking out loud, transferring the must and skins to a big mouth type fermenter, under airlock, with sulfite added after completion of AF, would be my best guess, stirring along the way maybe a couple of times per week. They were amarone style kits, so a bit higher in alcohol content, making it a less hospitable environment for nasties. The video was a pretty good watch.


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## AZMDTed (Oct 27, 2016)

He fleetingly mentioned the addition of raisins in addition to the skins, I wonder how significant that was versus just the grape skin pack. Joe's Wines tips for Amarone has you add raisins too, but not for that long. I'm also wondering how he fermented all of that in a Big Mouth Bubbler. Maybe he shortchanged the water addition to get the raisins and skin pack to into a 6.5 g BMB for primary without the foam overflowing. Am I missing something? 

I will keep following his experiment, but I do wonder if maybe just keeping the raisins in contact for 9 weeks is enough to pull this off, and that's doable with a regular carboy. I noticed that for my Amarone my raisins had plumped up after primary but didn't burst and probably had a lot more to give if I had let them rupture or split which they may have done if I had let it sit another month or two. 

Interesting, always good to see new experimentation.

Edited comments after watching it again


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## Brian55 (Oct 27, 2016)

Johnd said:


> I'm sure if someone knew how to get in touch with Tim he'd be happy to share the intimate details of the process. Thinking out loud, transferring the must and skins to a big mouth type fermenter, under airlock, with sulfite added after completion of AF, would be my best guess, stirring along the way maybe a couple of times per week. They were amarone style kits, so a bit higher in alcohol content, making it a less hospitable environment for nasties. The video was a pretty good watch.



[email protected]


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## heatherd (Oct 27, 2016)

Supercool! That makes me want to try it.


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## Sourgrape (Oct 31, 2016)

*Gravity at 1000 on Day 7*

After 7 days, my hydrometer is showing a gravity of 1000.  

So now what do I do? Instructions say 10-12 days on the skins, stirring daily with lid on loose, until I finally reach 1000. But, I'm at my target gravity already. 

Do I transfer to get it into a carboy with less dead space and an airlock? 

Do I leave it in the pail until Day 10 as the instructions say, stirring and pushing the skins down daily? 

Or, do I compromise? Leave it in the pail on the skins, but seal the lid on tight with an airlock until Day 10?


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 1, 2016)

Were it my wine, I'd probably let it go one more day, then get it into a carboy. Tim's videos have me thinking otherwise, but my practice has been to rack once it is below 1.000.


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## Sourgrape (Nov 1, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> Were it my wine, I'd probably let it go one more day, then get it into a carboy. Tim's videos have me thinking otherwise, but my practice has been to rack once it is below 1.000.



Thanks Boat boy.. Barring any further advice, that's what I'm going to do. I'm off to work now anyway, so the earliest I'll be able to rack is tonight. 

I wonder why the skins can't go into the carboy too? They are bunched up at the top of the muslin bag, which has stretched out so the weight I used is at the bottom but the skins ate floating at the top. (Next time I use a synthetic mesh bag.) I could easily squeeze them, knot them in the top part of the bag, cut the rest off, and stuff them down the carboy neck. But I won't cuz that's not what the instructions say and this is my first ever batch. No point getting fancy.


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## Boatboy24 (Nov 1, 2016)

1) It would be hard to 'punch down' the grapes when they're in a carboy

2) Getting them out would be way too much work


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## Sourgrape (Nov 2, 2016)

OK, so I transferred last night. I've got about 4-5 inches headspace from the liquid level to the top of the carboy topper. (The circle where the fluid level reaches in the carboy neck is about 6 inches across if that's a better description.) 

Should I top this up with water? The instructions don't say to do that, but I know it's done sometimes. 

Also, the instructions say, "If your kit comes with enzymes, add them now." My Cellar Craft Showcase - Amarone kit did not come with enzymes as far as I can tell. Does this sound right for this kit? Or did I just misplace a packet?


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## AZMDTed (Nov 2, 2016)

General rule of thumb, never top up with water. Always best to use a similar wine, either one you've made before or a commercial one. But you don't need to top up yet, wait till after clearing then top up to the bottom of the neck.


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## bkisel (Nov 2, 2016)

AZMDTed said:


> He fleetingly mentioned the addition of raisins in addition to the skins, I wonder how significant that was versus just the grape skin pack. ...
> Interesting, always good to see new experimentation.
> 
> Edited comments after watching it again



Listen again @ ~2:52. I believe that he is simply mentioning _a raisin taste from the skins _not that raisins were added to the first batch.


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## Sourgrape (Nov 3, 2016)

Does it seem right that my Cellar Craft Showcase Amarone kit did not come with enzymes? The instructions say to add them to the secondary _if_ the kit came with them. As far as I can tell, mine did not. Or did I just misplace something?


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## Johnd (Nov 3, 2016)

Sourgrape said:


> Does it seem right that my Cellar Craft Showcase Amarone kit did not come with enzymes? The instructions say to add them to the secondary _if_ the kit came with them. As far as I can tell, mine did not. Or did I just misplace something?



I checked my notes from when I did this kit last year, mine did not have enzymes included either. Some instructions are used for multiple kits that have different ingredients, which is why you see it referenced to use IF the kit came with it. No worries, this is a great Amarone kit!!!


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## AZMDTed (Nov 3, 2016)

Sourgrape said:


> Does it seem right that my Cellar Craft Showcase Amarone kit did not come with enzymes? The instructions say to add them to the secondary _if_ the kit came with them. As far as I can tell, mine did not. Or did I just misplace something?



That sounds right. Most instructions are generic for several kits. That's why they often say 'if' or they're not specific on how many bags of yeast, oak, chitosan or whatever they have. Generally you can trust that what they gave you is right for your kit and if you don't have something then it's not required for the specific one you're doing.


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## Sourgrape (Nov 15, 2016)

Last night I racked from carboy into bucket, degased with Fizz-X stick, racked into carboy, and added finings. I hope I did everything right. Process was as follows:


Racked to bucket
Took gravity: 0.995
Added Potassium Metabislphate packet
Degased with the Fizz-X until the foam was gone 
Racked to carboy
Applied Vacu-Vin to carboy to see if I could coax more gas out – wine looks thoroughly degased. 
Added Potassium sorbate dissolved first in a small amount of Valpolicella wine
Added Kiesosel　 - stirred with drill – waited 1 hour
Added Chitosen (2 packets) – stirred briefly with drill – waited 1 hour
Added second package of Kiesosel　 - stirred with drill
Topped up carboy with about 1 L of Valpolicella (It’s not Amarone, but made from same grapes grown in same region, and I didn’t want to spend $$60 on Amarone to use as a top up) 


The instructions say to leave it alone and bottle in three weeks. So my question is, should I rack again off the lees in another week or so, despite the instructions stating otherwise? 

The instructions also say "We recommend filtering the wine before bottling." I don’t have a filtration system. In lieue of this, would bulk aging be a better option than bottling in 3 weeks? Like maybe rack in 1 week, and bulk age for 3 months? Not so much for the aging, which can be done in bottle, but for the additional settling and clarity I can expect?​


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## AZMDTed (Nov 15, 2016)

I've not made a CC Showcase Amarone, though it's on my 'bucket' list. So I don't have the instructions, but I find it odd that they would have to go straight from clearing to bottling without racking first. You're going to get a bunch of stuff falling out of the wine over the next week. 

Without seeing the instructions, my advice would be to rack in about 8-10 days, and then let it sit for at least 3 months before you bottle. Things will continue to fall out for the next months, and possibly more.

Filtering isn't critical, but it does polish a wine to make it really shine. Others think that filtering removes some of the dissolved solids that could be used to help a wine age. The longer you can let it sit in a topped up carboy the better overall your wine will be. Age will help with clarity, gas, and give you a chance to modify it later if you wish too, e.g., adding more oak.


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## Sourgrape (Nov 15, 2016)

That's what I'm going to do. I'll rack to a clean carboy after 10 days. Then let it sit for 3 months. It's amazing how much sediment has dropped out already. Easily an inch at the bottom, and I just racked last night. That's more than dropped out for the entire secondary fermentation, which lasted 12 days. Those finings really work I guess. 

Should I add more Potassium Meta or Campden tablets when I rack next? I added the packet yesterday, and I don't want to overdo it.


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