# Newbies be aware



## Sudz (May 3, 2012)

I thought I'd share a little oops I discovered in my wine making which may save someone a headache. I just poured out the better part of three years of production because I found I had virtually no SO2 in my treasured inventory. Yes, I did taste them first...  

I always put the classical 1/4 tsp kmeta in every batch prior to bottling. All these wines were good going into the bottle and much improved in about 6 months. Some were excellent, all were enjoyable. However, they all started to develop a taste which killed the possibility of continuing to drink them. The taste was sort of moldy prunes for want of a better description.

At first I considered oxidation as the culprit but ruled this out simply because my process is very attentive to restricting encounters with air. And the color remained great on all of the tainted wine. This is an issue with reds since none of my whites made it 6 months.. 

I considered SO2 but didn't have a way to accurately measure the stuff. I had been using the little titrets as encouraged by my LHBS. Discovered these don't actually work all that well on reds and shouldn't be used on them.

I eventually developed an AO system for titrating the SO2 involved. This immediately identified my problem. My Potassium Metabisulfite was only about 20% full strength. I had been using the same bottle since day one, about 3 1/2 years. I knew it didn't keep once it was added to water but early "advice" received told me it kept forever on the shelf.... WRONG!

So those relying on their kmeta be forewarned. If you're not adding what's required at bottling using fresh kmeta, your wine will go bad.

Apparently if the stock you're using is fresh it will last 6 - 12 months. I guess the first question is do you know if your stock was fresh when you received it?

I've gone nuts measuring SO2 on everything we drink and have found some interesting things but then thats for another post someday.

Bottom line, make certain you have the appropriate level of SO2 in anything you bottle "if" you plan on keeping in around for very long.

Cheers....


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## tonyandkory (May 3, 2012)

Maybe its luck but we don't use any Potassium Metabisulfite or sorbate unless its in a kit with Fpac. Haven't yet had a problem. 

I know I know this is not the consensus way. 

Knocking on something wooden................................


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## Chiumanfu (May 3, 2012)

Sudz said:


> I eventually developed an AO system for titrating the SO2 involved.



I'd love to see more detail on your testing system?


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## cpfan (May 3, 2012)

Sudz:

I have some wines that are 5 years plus old and they are just fine. Most have not had extra K-meta added. Just the amount that came with the kit.

The only wine that I have had go bad (lousy smell and taste) was the very first wine kit that I made. I screwed up the sanitation of the bottles. At 2 years, some bottles were fine, others dreadful.

So I guess my question to you is...how did you clean & sanitize the bottles? That might be the issue.

Steve


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## saddlebronze (May 3, 2012)

Could be cork taint. Especially when you use the word moldy.


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## jswordy (May 3, 2012)

Wow. Just wow. Alcohol alone, in adequate amounts (generally thought to be above 10% abv) will preserve wine. They have found jugs of wine at the bottom of the ocean that are hundreds of years old, opened them, and found them to be delicious. Those vintners did not have SO2.

BTW, k meta has a max shelf life of 2 years.


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## Sudz (May 3, 2012)

Chiumanfu said:


> I'd love to see more detail on your testing system?


 
Nothing special about the chemistry. Google aeration/oxidation for titration of SO2. Only critical thing is knowing the exact normality of the NaOH you're using. There's equipment sold out there which provides the setup but really all you need are some inexpensive glassware and an aquarium pump. Several good articles on putting one together but unfortunately I don't have the specific website.

It was helpful I have a chemistry degree and work in a lab environment but it's really not necessary if you just follow the details in one of the articles. YouTube also has stuff on this as well.


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## Sudz (May 3, 2012)

cpfan said:


> Sudz:
> 
> So I guess my question to you is...how did you clean & sanitize the bottles? That might be the issue.
> 
> Steve


 
I would have been suspect of sanitation as well but... I've been brewing for years and have never had an infection. I follow the same basic process for my wine/equipment and can't see how that would contribute to the longevity issue. I've got beer over two years old that's still good which is rather unusual for homebrew.

Admittedly, I can't actually say the SO2 is the smoking gun for another year or two. What I can say is my wines are 10ppm or less SO2 (many are zero). I've measured a number of commercial wines and most are greater than 25ppm. I did have one which was 17ppm and it was borderline for drinking. Virtually all I have read on the subject says you're skating on thin ice below 25ppm.


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## BobF (May 3, 2012)

I'm immediately suspicious of anything that quotes a simple ppm level for SO2. As we all know, there is more to it than that!


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## bzac (May 3, 2012)

jswordy said:


> Wow. Just wow. Alcohol alone, in adequate amounts (generally thought to be above 10% abv) will preserve wine. They have found jugs of wine at the bottom of the ocean that are hundreds of years old, opened them, and found them to be delicious. Those vintners did not have SO2.
> 
> BTW, k meta has a max shelf life of 2 years.




Actualy the Romans discovered the use of sulfur as a wine preservative . Wines on the bottom of the ocean would also be preserved by a combination of pressure , stable low temperatures and no light , so this is hardly a fare comparison .

The Number one flaw in amateur wines in competitions is oxidization number two is microbial issues , both of which are prevented by the correct use of so2



Mastering the correct use of so2 has been the single biggest improvement in my wine making in 5 years , more than anything else .

No more faded flavors , oxidative character , microbe issues etc,
It actualy gives the wine a chance to achieve it's true potential . 
The wine won't fade before all the tannins and bouquet come into their own.

Anyone who tells you not to use so2 , is giving you advice that is high risk .
It's ok to not use so2 if you re going to drink your wine as fast as you can . But if you want to age it beyond 2 years , and not have it go down hill before it peaks , master so2 , the single best advice I can give any wine maker. I was an avowed so2 sceptic until I had dinner with Daniel pambianchi over some of my best wines. His feed back was I needed to use more so2. And since then my wines are much better, and I was winning golds before. 

I like the vinmetica http://vinmetrica.com/vinmetricas-sc-300-so2-phta-analyzer/, very easy to use and accurate.


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## Sudz (May 3, 2012)

BobF said:


> I'm immediately suspicious of anything that quotes a simple ppm level for SO2. As we all know, there is more to it than that!


 
Totally agree... The 25ppm failed to reference anything else, not even pH.


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## closetwine (May 3, 2012)

Good point though... There are alot of Newbies that think that stuff is good forever on the shelf... Best to buy smaller quantities and rotate it out than to face the dreaded "dumping time"!


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## bzac (May 4, 2012)

I buy a new kilo every year . if I have anything left over from last year I use it for sanitising , year old kmeta is fine for that . but anything that goes in my wine is fresh.

its improtant to store it in an air tight container . I keep all my yeast and additives in separate containers in the deep freeze.


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## Turock (May 4, 2012)

And if you don't know the PH of your wine, adding proper amounts of SO2 can be guesswork. A wine with a PH of 3.4 only needs about 30PPM but a wine with a 3.6 PH needs about 60PPM. So you need to know the chemistries of your wine, which many new winemakers haven't yet mastered, in order to give you some direction.


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## homer (May 4, 2012)

bzac said:


> The Number one flaw in amateur wines in competitions is oxidization number two is microbial issues , both of which are prevented by the correct use of so2
> 
> Mastering the correct use of so2 has been the single biggest improvement in my wine making in 5 years , more than anything else .
> 
> ...


 

I agree with the above. But I have a few questions :
#1 When a Big time vineyard puts out a BIG RED and says not to drink it for 10 years, how do they keep it stable?
#2 Can homies ever hope to keep a wine for 10 years?
#3 Using Midwest Supplies So2 tester I find the wine usually has about 10/20 PPM, using that line of thought why not just put in 20 PPM more and hope for the best?
#4 Because they are easy I use Kmeta tablets, cc. 1/2 gram each, what do other homies do?


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## Sudz (May 4, 2012)

When I first started measuring my SO2 and actually could see what was going on, I was surprised to see how much of each addition was bound up. The early additions yielded less than 50% free SO2. Each subsequent addition yielded more. From reading, I was aware of this but not to the degree I observed.... but, this is all new to me so part of a learning curve.

This did make for a few questions.

I can see where those that condition their wines in the carboy have an advantage for being able to manage the SO2 during aging. I assume in 6 months or so the free SO2 stays pretty much where you take the last reading.

However, if one bottles early in the game the SO2 they had at bottling will be something less in a few months. I know my recent Amarone was supposed to have 38 ppm FSO2 at bottling which I did. I can't help but wonder what I'll find after the first year.


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## bzac (May 4, 2012)

they keep it stable by using so2 , and sometimes sterile filtering but always very sanitary. and storing it properly , even chateua petrus will go off stored in the hall cupboard for 10 years.

yes I have had many 10 year old homemade wines. but they have to start out as balanced and stable to start with and be made with excellent fruit.
mass cropped very ripe CV fruit doesn't tend to age well even if the winemaker uses correct technique and storage.

you need to match your so2 to PH. a safer approach than just adding 20 ppm and hopeing for the best , athough that is better than adding no so2.

I prefer powdered so2 , easier to use than crushing up tablets, unless you are referring to the alkaseltzer type tablets of kmeta, which are brilliant but expensive.

in a carboy so2 will bind at a slower rate than in a barrel but i would still expect it to drop over 6 months , never assume .


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## Cincinati (May 7, 2012)

*~~~~~~~~~*

nothing else needs


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## Bartman (May 7, 2012)

bzac said:


> they keep it stable by using so2 , and sometimes sterile filtering but always very sanitary. and storing it properly , even chateau petrus will go off stored in the hall cupboard for 10 years.
> 
> yes I have had many 10 year old homemade wines. but they have to start out as balanced and stable to start with and be made with excellent fruit.
> mass cropped very ripe CV fruit doesn't tend to age well even if the winemaker uses correct technique and storage.



But of those 10 year old homemade wines, how many were good and how many undrinkable? I suspect there are some 10-year-old+ batches out there made by newbies who didn't care for it or forgot about making it. I haven't been making wine for ten years yet (only ~8), but I have yet to make or taste a kit wine that improved past year 2; prior discussions about kit wine longevity lead me to believe 5 years is probably the max for anything that was 'shelf-stable' as juice. And from what I have read, non-grape fruit wines just don't age well after 1-2 years (with a very few exceptions, of course). Assuming the majority of folks on this forum are making kit wines and don't have access to or can't afford excellent, balanced grapes, is the potential of 10-year-old homemade wine really a concern, or a reasonable goal for us? 

It just seems to me that for homemade wine that is to be consumed within one-two years of bottling, SO2 is most valuable for sanitation purposes, because the wine will have limited opportunity to oxidize inside a properly corked bottle for 12-18 months (although SO2 helps a little there too). It never hurts to be careful of course, but if it is only applicable to 1% of the wine that forum-folks make, is the extra effort/testing/additions worthwhile?


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## JohnT (May 7, 2012)

To change the subject.. 

Assuming that this is a microbal problem, then yes, I would agree that K-meta might have prevented this problem. As you say that you have been rather careful, I doubt that this is the problem. 

Other, more common causes of oxidation is the PH level of the wine or an all over lack of tannins. 

I see that you did not mention anything about PH levels. If your PH level is not set to the proper level, you can get oxidation as a result. 

Tannins act as an antioxident and help greatly in presrving corked wine over time.


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## Sammyk (May 7, 2012)

Why is it that pH is never mentioned in recipes?


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## Sudz (May 8, 2012)

JohnT said:


> To change the subject..
> 
> Assuming that this is a microbal problem, then yes, I would agree that K-meta might have prevented this problem. As you say that you have been rather careful, I doubt that this is the problem.
> 
> ...


 
I think the pH of my various efforts has been okay. It ranges from 3.1 to 3.45 across several reds. I'm focusing on microbial via lack of SO2 as the cause of my wine's demise. I considered oxidation, but I've always exercised great care in handling and the color remains clear, bright, and ruby red without a hint of browning. I must confess, I hadn't considered the tannin levels.

Whatever the cause, it's the same trait (taste) that's killing them all beginning at about 6 months.


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## Turock (May 8, 2012)

Sudz--what kind of wine was this? I re-read this entire thread and I don't think you mentioned it. You mentioned the taste of moldy prunes so I'm wondering if other issues aren't at play here, especially since you are attentive to SO2 levels. I'm wondering if some bad fruit was responsible. Also, cleanliness of bottles,carboys, and the kind of clean technique you use when handling implements that come in contact with the wine. Kind of hard to hunt down the culprit from behind a computer screen where we can't watch your techniques at play. It would be good if you can go back thru the process, in your head, and see if you can come up with some things that might be causing this so you can have better success in the future. 

It seems endemic if all your wines are going thru this. I'm not so sure about tannin--fruit wine doesn't have tannin and are perfectly fine in keeping for a couple years. SO2 keeps microbial issues in check. Just seems to me that something else is happening. Have you ever done an MLF in your winery? We are always careful not to MLF in the winery so that the bacteria doesn't become resident and make all your wines subject to spontainious MLF's. It's things like this that should be thought about. Any ideas???


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## Turock (May 8, 2012)

Sammy---I think that when you follow a recipe, you have a certain amount of PH control by the water additions and acid blend amounts, etc. It's kind of all thought out for you. But when you discover that a recipe makes so-so wine and you want to improve the flavor of your wines,you end up going "off recipe" and THEN you really need to understand PH control--especially with fruit. Fruit wines are incredible if you use no water. But you need to control the PH or else it's too acidic and you'll never be able to balance it out with sugar. If it's not acidic enough, the wine is flabby.

You get more serious about your wines as time goes on and you begin studying white papers on all aspects of chemistry and wine science and begin to see that PH of a wine, along with ABV, is what you consider when deciding how much SO2 is needed for preservation,as an example. You get a much better idea of what you should be doing. Recipes are great for a novice beginner who just wants to make a little wine and see if this is going to be a hobby they enjoy. Going into PH control means buying a PH meter and who is going to do that when they're still trying to figure out if this is something they'll stick with. They just don't want to get you all confused on a lot of science so that's why it's never mentioned in a recipe.


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## Sudz (May 8, 2012)

Turock said:


> Sudz--what kind of wine was this?
> 
> Also, cleanliness of bottles,carboys, and the kind of clean technique you use
> 
> Just seems to me that something else is happening. Have you ever done an MLF in your winery?


 
For the most part, red kit wines. One Zinfandel from grapes we picked. All crashed in the same manner after about 6 months. TA and pH levels okay I believe.

Been brewing for years without any infections what so ever. Believe I have my housekeeping under control but always a possibility I guess.

No MLF to this point.

I think my problem comes from little or no SO2 in the bottle. Recent testing (new capability) has confirmed all of the tainted wines were very low on SO2 (<10ppm). I had been using old stock meta which was only about 20% without knowing it.

I'm moving forward with new meta and testing capability for SO2. However, I'm not 100% certain SO2 is my problem. It fits the symptoms but I don't have a smoking gun so to speak.


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## bzac (May 8, 2012)

there seems to be a few misconceptions that are worth commenting on.

Firstly the use of so2 has several benefits , it is an anti oxident , a preservative and an anti microbial.
it also binds compounds which can mask fruit , it counters small amounts of VA and it stabilises the wine so that its colour , fruit flavours and character age at a steady and controlled rate .

this controlled ageing curve is primarliy what alot of homemade wines lack , the more typical arc being a fairly quick spike followed by a fairly quick decline, preventing the wine from acheiving its full potential as it fades before the tannins , flavours and aromatics all come into balance as part of the ageing process.

alcohol, tannins correct PH and balanced acidity also contribute to to ageability but SO2 mangement is an extreamly important part of winemaking. One 90% of homewinemakers don't take seriously enough. my wines are all much better since I stopped being so2 phobic and learned the skills to use , measure and understand correct so2 practice.

MLF isn't something that gets airborne in a winery but comes in on the fruit itself , which is why its common practice to add so2 to a must before pitching the yeast, this surpresses wild fauna like yeast and bacteria not all of which are wine friendly. the only place MLB is likely to be resident is in a barrell where you intentionly innoculated the barrell in a previous batch. The correct use of SO2 also goes along way to preventing unintentional MLF post primary (ie in the bottle a common fault seen in competitions).


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## bzac (May 8, 2012)

Bartman said:


> But of those 10 year old homemade wines, how many were good and how many undrinkable? I suspect there are some 10-year-old+ batches out there made by newbies who didn't care for it or forgot about making it. I haven't been making wine for ten years yet (only ~8), but I have yet to make or taste a kit wine that improved past year 2; prior discussions about kit wine longevity lead me to believe 5 years is probably the max for anything that was 'shelf-stable' as juice. And from what I have read, non-grape fruit wines just don't age well after 1-2 years (with a very few exceptions, of course). Assuming the majority of folks on this forum are making kit wines and don't have access to or can't afford excellent, balanced grapes, is the potential of 10-year-old homemade wine really a concern, or a reasonable goal for us?
> 
> It just seems to me that for homemade wine that is to be consumed within one-two years of bottling, SO2 is most valuable for sanitation purposes, because the wine will have limited opportunity to oxidize inside a properly corked bottle for 12-18 months (although SO2 helps a little there too). It never hurts to be careful of course, but if it is only applicable to 1% of the wine that forum-folks make, is the extra effort/testing/additions worthwhile?



in a word , yes . it is worth while if you want your wine to be the best it can be.
a wine that is balanced , clean , stable and made with decent grapes may have the potential to age for ten years but thats not the end goal.
the end goal is that it should taste better at every stage of its life , 1 year old wine made with these parameters will taste better than a wine of the same age not made this way.

fruit wines don't tend to age as well age grape wines for many reasons but in general they should age in line with their potential , and balance, stability and the controled use of so2 will help it reach that potential. kit wines tend to peak at whites 1-3 years and 2-5 years for the reds . a ten year old kit red wine would be past its prime but if a littel extra so2 was used and it was stored correctly , a six week skins kit might still be good.

I guess it depends on your goal , if you just want to make something pallatable that gets you buzzed and it will all be consumed within 6 months of fermentation (like skeeter pee) then yes don't bother. 

but if you want to make the best wine you can. follow solid fundamentals and you have a good chance of doing that.

as for those ten year old homemade red wines. some were past their prime , but they were all drinkable and enjoyable over dinner , and a few of them could still age if you wanted them too.


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## Sudz (May 8, 2012)

Frankly, I'll be trilled if I can get my kit wines to age a year without crashing. 

I can't see me trying to keep any of these longer than 1 -2 years. I just want each wine I make to become the best it can be within a reasonable aging period. I know you're not going to drink a premium red kit in 3 months and be blown away. But you might be impressed in a year if it can hang in there that long...

Anyway, I'm focusing on SO2 management until I learn otherwise... and keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks for the help on this guys....


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## BobF (May 8, 2012)

Here's a good write-up on SO2:
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf


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## bzac (May 8, 2012)

this website has some excellent information on a number of topics . reading every so2 article is a good base

http://www.vawa.net/winemaking-articles.html


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## wood1954 (May 8, 2012)

*old wine*

I got started in this hobby because a friend who had been making wine for quite a while kept giving me his wine. It was always good, especially the last bottle which was a ten year old plum wine. He doesn't use any test equipment , just uses a recipe and is very sanitary. If you are having problems it seems like sanitation or else the water you are using. Another guy told me his wine was always pretty stinky until he switched from his well water to bought spring water.


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## bzac (May 9, 2012)

Sudz said:


> Frankly, I'll be trilled if I can get my kit wines to age a year without crashing.
> 
> I can't see me trying to keep any of these longer than 1 -2 years. I just want each wine I make to become the best it can be within a reasonable aging period. I know you're not going to drink a premium red kit in 3 months and be blown away. But you might be impressed in a year if it can hang in there that long...
> 
> ...



Where are you storeing this wine ?

light , noise , vibration and most of all temperature can all prematurely age a wine. sharp temperature swings being the worst , followed by just too warm.


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## bzac (May 9, 2012)

it is possible that the moudly prunes flavour could be h2s developing if the wine is going reductive in the bottle.

What was you nurient regime in the original wine? do you use a complex nutiernt like fermaid K ?

have you tried treating any of the affected wine with some copper to see if it clears up? a couple drops of cuso4 in a glass would tell you pretty quickly if its an h2s issue.


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## Sudz (May 9, 2012)

wood1954 said:


> I got started in this hobby because a friend who had been making wine for quite a while kept giving me his wine. It was always good, especially the last bottle which was a ten year old plum wine. He doesn't use any test equipment , just uses a recipe and is very sanitary. If you are having problems it seems like sanitation or else the water you are using. Another guy told me his wine was always pretty stinky until he switched from his well water to bought spring water.


 
I'm fairly confident my sanitation isn't an issue. I've been brewing for years and have never had an issue. Brewing tends to be more demanding on sanitation simply because you don't add anything to control organisms, and the pH is more favorable for bugs than wine. However, this does stay in the back of my mine since a problem in this area could explain my situation.

I use Wal-Mart Spring Water for all my wine making. It has occurred to me I'm placing a great deal of faith on the sanitary aspects of this water. It's "supposed" to be sanitary by law but we all know how that works sometimes. I have decided I will use another source next batch just to see if there is a difference.


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## Sudz (May 9, 2012)

bzac said:


> Where are you storeing this wine ?
> 
> light , noise , vibration and most of all temperature can all prematurely age a wine. sharp temperature swings being the worst , followed by just too warm.


 
This is another area I'm not totally comfortable with. I am limited to storing at a temp of 74-75 *F. I keep the bottles dark, still, and the temp doesn't fluctuate much ... but it's still too warm according to the literature. On the other hand I know many of you have similar limitations and don't have my problem.

So, is 75*F the kiss of death???


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## Sudz (May 9, 2012)

bzac said:


> it is possible that the Moldy prunes flavour could be h2s developing if the wine is going reductive in the bottle.
> 
> What was you nurient regime in the original wine? do you use a complex nutiernt like fermaid K ?
> 
> have you tried treating any of the affected wine with some copper to see if it clears up? a couple drops of cuso4 in a glass would tell you pretty quickly if its an h2s issue.


 

I don't use added nutrients, just do the kit as received with the ingredients included. I had planned to look into nutrients once I got my process to the point where refinement was something to consider for improvement.

The H2s are a possibility I guess. What leads to or causes the reductive process in a bottle? I'm totally ignorant of this senario...

I'll give the cuso4 treatment a go and see what it may reveal.

Thanks...


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## bzac (May 9, 2012)

its unlikley to be h2s if its a kit , they come with lots of nutirent in them , I've never heard of a kit with h2s unless you swapped the yeast out for montrachet or some other h2s pig.

still worth a little copper test.

75 is pretty warm.

if my math is right thats 23'C 

where as ideal storage is 55'F or 15'C 

I'd move it cooler if possible.


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## Sudz (May 9, 2012)

bzac said:


> I'd move it cooler if possible.


 
I would if I could. Short of building a cellar, I've run out of options. Even considered converting a closet into a wine cellar. Couldn't sell the wife however...


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## Bartman (May 9, 2012)

Sudz said:


> a wine cellar. Couldn't sell the wife however...



You were probably asking too much $ for her.


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