# Advise for a first timer.



## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)

Hi Guys, 
I am from Scotland but now live in Sumatra where the normal temperatures are 25 to 35 degrees Celsius. (29 today) 
I decided to try making some wine as fruit here is cheap and plentiful. 
Recipe.
*Made 5 gallons, 

Orange Wine Ingredients

8 kg Oranges]

1kg lemons

1 kg raisins 

added Water to make 5 gallons 

5 kg sugar *

*1/4 tsp Wine Tannin*

*1/2 tsp **Pectic Enzyme*

*1 tsp **Yeast Nutrient*

*1 **Campden Tablet*

*1 Sachet Yeast *

Made the oranges into juice, 
mixed it with sugar and other ingredients and added 3 campden tablets. 
Left for 24 hours before adding EC118 yeast and nutrient.
SG 1.130 (Think that might be wrong) 
5 days primary, 
Racked into carboy. 
racked once a week after this for 3 weeks 

The SG is now 1.010 for 5 days in a row. 

*Do you think it is ok to bottle. ?*

Apart from the wine getting clearer i see no signs of gas. 

PS surprising it is very nice to taste. 

Thanks for a great site, i have learnt so much by reading all the posts. 

George


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## crushday (May 16, 2020)

I would not bottle it that quickly. Besides, you want it to clear all the way, right? Bottling now is likely to create a mess when you least expect it...


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## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)

crushday said:


> I would not bottle it that quickly. Besides, you want it to clear all the way, right? Bottling now is likely to create a mess when you least expect it...


Thanks mate.


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## crushday (May 16, 2020)

Let me be a bit more specific. You have a high starting gravity (SG) and if your hydrometer is correct you have an ABV of over 15.5%. E1118 can tolerate 18 ABV so it has a bit more headroom.

Just because you don’t see any activity or ‘gas’ doesn’t mean you’re done. I‘d be very surprised if you’re done fermenting in 5 days. And, there’s no way it can be degassed within your time table. 

Can you send a pic of how clear it is?

Anyway, if you bottle now and it’s not done fermenting or degassing, it’s gonna blow the cork or worse. 

Sounds like a great batch. Are you planning on back sweetening? If so, you’ll need to add sorbate unless you have a sterilizing filter system.


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## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)




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## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)

Remember this is my first ever attempt. Back sweetening ?? I assume to make it sweeter. Actually last week it was quite sweet but most of that has gone, so yes i probably would like to make it a bit sweeter, but It is very difficult to get anything here, apart from basics. Can i back sweeten with sugar or honey ?


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## crushday (May 16, 2020)

Ok, it’s obvious that I’ve misinterpreted your project. From the look of things, this wine was not started 5 days ago. It’s months old.

Wine that clear can be bottled, I think.


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## sour_grapes (May 16, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> *Campden Tablet*
> racked once a week after this for 3 weeks



So I gather it is 3 weeks old, basically.

I would be really concerned bottling wine that still had 1.010 SG. At that level, it should taste pretty sweet, almost like soda. Can you wait a while to see if it changes more?


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## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)

Since i added the yeast is approx 5 weeks now, 5 to 6 days in primary bucket, then i racked into Glass carboy on the 20/4/20


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## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)

crushday said:


> Ok, it’s obvious that I’ve misinterpreted your project. From the look of things, this wine was not started 5 days ago. It’s months old.
> 
> Wine that clear can be bottled, I think.


yes, almost 5 weeks now, ,


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## subseageorge (May 16, 2020)

I think i will wait another week, then look at bottling it, As i want to start another batch now i have learnt alot of lessons. and as i said ingredients here are very cheap. Can i use sugar before bottling to sweeten it a bit ???


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## G259 (May 17, 2020)

Yes, but wait a while, it'll only get better with time. If you can't wait on the first one, I'll say that it's ok, but just remember that time helps. Maybe only open 1 bottle a month, depending on how much you made. I started with 1 gallon batches, or rather 4L ones, Carlo Rossi wine jugs. Not superior wine, (drinkable) but I got a glass carboy out of the deal (I have several)!

Sugar: Add potassium sorbate before you add sugar, sorbate blocks the yeast from reproducing, and will end fermentation when the yeast die off (soon).
You have to stop fermentation, otherwise you bottles will likely explode (ouch!)

That's why Champagne bottles are thick and have different corks, they add sugar at bottling time, producing the CO2 bubbles.
(and no sorbate)


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## subseageorge (May 17, 2020)

When you say potassium sorbate do you mean Campden tablets? Also should i mix the sugar into the wine and leave it for a while in case their is any settling before bottling? I have 2 plastic fermenters that i can use for my next batch, so can wait a month or so before bottling if required.


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## G259 (May 17, 2020)

Sorbate is different, Campden (potassium metabisulfate) will dissipate over time, sorbate will not. However, both should be added together when you bottle. Normally, you add campden every 3 mo., when you rack the wine off of the junk (lees), plan to wait, never bottle cloudy wine!
Although, yours looks pretty clear so . . .


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## G259 (May 17, 2020)

A lot of people confuse bulk aging and bottling. Just because it is in a bottle doesn't mean it is optimum drinking time. I bulk age for at least 6 mo., then bottle, and try to age for another 6 months. When I'm able to do that, I'll let you know (lol!)


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## subseageorge (May 17, 2020)

hahha, Yes, i dont think mine will last that long either, Another quick one for you mate, if you dont mind. How much potassium sorbate do i need per litre ?


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## subseageorge (May 17, 2020)

OK, Managed to get some potassium sulphate from Jakarta, excellent. Do you know if back sweetening with 100% palm sugar would be ok ?


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## G259 (May 17, 2020)

Sure, take SG readings as you go, so you know what level you like it at. I tested commercial (Woodbridge) wines for their SG. Chardonnay and Cab. Sav. were 1.00, P. Grigio was 1.005 (that could have been a Resling), and Cab. Blanc. was .995. Note your levels for future reference, this is a fluid reading over time (ok, fluid, yes!)

(saved an edit: blanc vs. sav.)


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## Rice_Guy (May 17, 2020)

First welcome to WMT. If your orange wine tastes good you have done a good job  . ,,, A few thoughts:

* Your starting gravity was high therefore you are stressing the yeast. It will slow down early and fermentation may have run down/ stopped all by itself.
* Your ambient temperature is high. Yeast doesn’t like 30C.
* I expect orange wine pH, without added acid, to be high ,,, closer to 4. Lemon comes in at 2.5 with a high titratable acidity. For long term storage we like white wine (fruit wine) to be 3.3 or 3.4. If you are lucky you are at goal. pH target is based on the antioxidant meta being more effective at lower pH. pH also is a preservative which prevents secondary microbial infections. This is probably going to be a good wine to drink young.
* My experience is that I always have some active yeast for six months, I expect that you see this too. The posting about CO2 is basically saying most folks agree. Sorbate immobilizes yeast so the risk is low.
You have options on bottling/ freeing up the carboy. One low tech is to down size to 3 or 4 liter glass, keep the head space low on any for storage, and cover the mouth with a balloon. A higher tech option is a felexable wine bag, if you see the bag puffing up you can burp it and one can serve directly off of the bag.
* Several posts on CO2 imply it is bad. YES you don’t want it to explode. Commercial still wine should not out gas. Hobby Vinters with Fruit wines at state fair have bubbles on the glass about 50% of the time, you wouldn’t be the first to have some left, , most of us don’t worry. From a stability point CO2 acts as a preservative (keeps the system anaerobic) to reduce oxidation and reduce the pH which delays microbial issues (again a lot of fruit wine is below 3.4 pH). 
* Wine is hedonic, yup you can sweeten to get it optimum flavor. From the point of view of sweet sugar is sugar. Commercial makers avoid some sugar as honey for back sweetening since it has residual protein and makes the wine cloudy. I think palm sugar also has some residual non solubles in it, I will be interested for feed back on how clear it turns out.
*Turbidity when back sweetened is cosmetic, how pretty do you want it to be? However if you never got it clear I would question if there was a bacterial infection while percentage alcohol was low.
* A comment you will see on WMT is oxygen is your enemy. For most of us this means keep the head space low.

Welcome to wine making.


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## robert81650 (May 17, 2020)

Welcome............I live in Alabama and make muscadine wine mainly along with strawberry.......................


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## G259 (May 17, 2020)

I hope you have potassium SORBATE and not Sulfate, because sulfate is poisonous.

The amount of sorbate to stabilize your wine is 1/2 tsp per US gallon.


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## subseageorge (May 20, 2020)

G259 said:


> Yes, but wait a while, it'll only get better with time. If you can't wait on the first one, I'll say that it's ok, but just remember that time helps. Maybe only open 1 bottle a month, depending on how much you made. I started with 1 gallon batches, or rather 4L ones, Carlo Rossi wine jugs. Not superior wine, (drinkable) but I got a glass carboy out of the deal (I have several)!
> 
> Sugar: Add potassium sorbate before you add sugar, sorbate blocks the yeast from reproducing, and will end fermentation when the yeast die off (soon).
> You have to stop fermentation, otherwise you bottles will likely explode (ouch!)
> ...


 Carlos rossi 4 litres we can buy in the city but it is $150 US a bottle. Wine is expensive here.


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## subseageorge (May 20, 2020)

Hope the potassium sorbate turns up today. Then i will add and take a final SG reading. Bottled 3 bottles to see if any increase in pressure 3 days ago. No fizz as of yet, I also ordered a PH meter and refratometer. which i will also take readings for interest. My wife and I drank a bottle last night and it was very nice. and no hangover today. lol ... Bought fruit and sugar for our next experiment which we will also start today. Has anyone used palm sugar ? From what i have read it is not advised to use it 100% for making wine. Do you guys agree? Just plentiful here but it may affect the taste. Not sure.


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## Rice_Guy (May 20, 2020)

Palm wine from coconut palms is traditional. It differs from European style grape wines in that at best it is 5% alcohol therefore not very stable.
There are several methods for producing Palm sugar concentrates. In general a method which uses high heat (over 160C) produces browning reactions which contribute flavor. Coconut palm sugar has contaminants as protein and mineral ie it may cloud a wine and will have some flavor. Locals find the flavor desirable. High temperature production with resulting browning will carry through into a finished wine.
You are combining palm sugar with a fruit that contributes part of the sugar. There will be some dilution factor of the palm flavor.

I do not see any reason for not trying palm sugar.

(a side note 160C ie the upper limit on operating instant rice driers, above this we produced toasted flavors)


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## sour_grapes (May 20, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> I also ordered a PH meter and refratometer. which i will also take readings for interest.



Just as a heads-up: Once fermentation commences, the reading of a refractometer will be skewed (because alcohol has a different index of refraction than water). There are ways to correct for this if you are determined.


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## G259 (May 20, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> Carlos rossi 4 litres we can buy in the city but it is $150 US a bottle. Wine is expensive here.



$15 here, good reason for you to make your own!


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## subseageorge (May 26, 2020)

Update so far, there was no drop on the SG for a week, so i decided to bottle the wine with no sweetening. We actually tried 2 bottles . 1 with palm sugar and 1 with honey.. but was a bit too sweet. So we bottled the rest as is. The reading on the refractometer was 10% not sure what that is after correction. I have now started 2 more batches. 1 x 5 gallon orange, and 1 x 5 gallons apple. using recipes off the internet as before. both are primary stage now. orange is bubbling away nicely.


*The apple has a skin about an inch deep on top which looks like it is preventing the escaping CO2 . Do you think i should remove some of it or just leave it be ? *

This time i have taken accurate SG and PH levels before pitching yeast.
Thanks again for all the advise guys,

George


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## Rice_Guy (May 26, 2020)

CO2 will escape Through floating pulp. 
Many of us will start fermentation’s with juice, the exceptions being where we want to extract something example color and tannin from red grape skins or flavor from a low moisture fruit.


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## DizzyIzzy (May 27, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> Carlos rossi 4 litres we can buy in the city but it is $150 US a bottle. Wine is expensive here.


subseageorge, really $150 for Carlo Rossi? What country are you living in?


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## Rice_Guy (May 27, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> I am from Scotland but now live in Sumatra where the normal temperatures are 25 to 35 degrees Celsius. (29 today) . . . . George


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## subseageorge (May 28, 2020)

hhahha, Some things are cheap and others are crazy priced. Try 320,000 USD for a toyota landcruiser. , Crazy.


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## subseageorge (May 29, 2020)

Guys, my new batches, 5 gallons of orange is going great, just racked it 2 days ago into carboy. My apple wine however, when i racked it and fitted an air lock, there is no gas escaping now. The must SG was 1.120 at the start, Now it is 1.060 . Looks like the fermenting has stopped or nearly stopped. i also noted that the Acidity is PH 2.75. That seems low to me, But i dont know. Do you think i should adjust the acidity up to 3.4 ??? that being said. Can i use baking powder instead of Potassium Bicarbonate ???


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## sour_grapes (May 30, 2020)

You say that is "looks like the fermentation has stopped." What are you basing this inference upon? Have you measured the SG with a hydrometer? What does it say now?


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## subseageorge (May 30, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> You say that is "looks like the fermentation has stopped." What are you basing this inference upon? Have you measured the SG with a hydrometer? What does it say now?


The must SG was 1.120 at the start, Now it is 1.060 . Actually i based this on the fact that the air trap was not bubbling, However, i was going to put in a yeast starter and when i took the lid off the fermenting bucket i noted that it was still bubbling away. So i changed the air trap. It is now bubbling away like normal. The other air trap must be leaking somewhere.


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## subseageorge (May 30, 2020)

I am still concerned about the PH. Do you think that it is too acidic at PH 2.75 ??


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## Johnd (May 30, 2020)

@subseageorge Just taking accurate measurements is only the first part of your job as “Head Winemaker”. Next, you must decide what the measurements tell you, and take action. BEFORE pitching yeast, you should get your must right.

The musts you’re are creating look to me to be challenging due to very high sugar content, resulting in difficult fermentation and possibly unbalanced body/alcohol in your finished wine. Good fruit wine isn’t in the 15-18% ABV range. Try shooting for a starting SG of 1.090, a range where yeast will survive to dryness, and you’ve a chance at having enough body to balance the alcohol, which should be in the 12-13% range depending on where your final SG is. . When you get that balance right, your wine will improve by huge strides.

Yes, your pH is too low. That, coupled with a yeast producing high ABV% is enough to shut your ferment down. Shoot for a pH at least in the 3.1+ range if you wish to increase your chances of success.


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## subseageorge (May 30, 2020)

Johnd said:


> @subseageorge Just taking accurate measurements is only the first part of your job as “Head Winemaker”. Next, you must decide what the measurements tell you, and take action. BEFORE pitching yeast, you should get your must right.
> 
> The musts you’re are creating look to me to be challenging due to very high sugar content, resulting in difficult fermentation and possibly unbalanced body/alcohol in your finished wine. Good fruit wine isn’t in the 15-18% ABV range. Try shooting for a starting SG of 1.090, a range where yeast will survive to dryness, and you’ve a chance at having enough body to balance the alcohol, which should be in the 12-13% range depending on where your final SG is. . When you get that balance right, your wine will improve by huge strides.
> 
> Yes, your pH is too low. That, coupled with a yeast producing high ABV% is enough to shut your ferment down. Shoot for a pH at least in the 3.1+ range if you wish to increase your chances of success.



Thank you very much for you advise, still a learning game. 
What would you suggest i use to lower the acidity ?


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## Johnd (May 30, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> Thank you very much for you advise, still a learning game.
> What would you suggest i use to lower the acidity ?


Potassium bicarbonate has always worked well for me.


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## sour_grapes (May 30, 2020)

Note that CO2 will lower the _p_H a bit. Maybe before you take any actions, you would take a sample and drive the CO2 out (agitation, microwaving, whatever) and then measure your _p_H again.


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## DizzyIzzy (May 30, 2020)

Johnd said:


> @subseageorge Just taking accurate measurements is only the first part of your job as “Head Winemaker”. Next, you must decide what the measurements tell you, and take action. BEFORE pitching yeast, you should get your must right.
> 
> The musts you’re are creating look to me to be challenging due to very high sugar content, resulting in difficult fermentation and possibly unbalanced body/alcohol in your finished wine. Good fruit wine isn’t in the 15-18% ABV range. Try shooting for a starting SG of 1.090, a range where yeast will survive to dryness, and you’ve a chance at having enough body to balance the alcohol, which should be in the 12-13% range depending on where your final SG is. . When you get that balance right, your wine will improve by huge strides.
> 
> Yes, your pH is too low. That, coupled with a yeast producing high ABV% is enough to shut your ferment down. Shoot for a pH at least in the 3.1+ range if you wish to increase your chances of success.


John, I am making fruit wines and* AM* looking for a high alcohol content. What makes a 15-18% not *"Good"*? Note: fruit wines I have made thus far are aging so I have no idea what they are going to taste like when aging is done which is the reason for my question.


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## cmason1957 (May 30, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> John, I am making fruit wines and* AM* looking for a high alcohol content. What makes a 15-18% not *"Good"*? Note: fruit wines I have made thus far are aging so I have no idea what they are going to taste like when aging is done which is the reason for my question.



Not John, but my opinion. Fruit wines are generally better at 10-12% abv to bring out the fruit taste. Generally, if you get much higher than that all you can taste, even with age and sweetening is the alcohol, which isn't that pleasant all by itself.


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## DizzyIzzy (May 30, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Not John, but my opinion. Fruit wines are generally better at 10-12% abv to bring out the fruit taste. Generally, if you get much higher than that all you can taste, even with age and sweetening is the alcohol, which isn't that pleasant all by itself.


I thought the purpose of adding high proof grain alcohol was to increase the alcohol content? If that is not so, then why have the added expense of the addition of the HPA? Thanks for your response.


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## Rice_Guy (May 30, 2020)

From a technical point once one is at 10% one has good micro stability. The higher the alcohol the “hotter “ the flavor, above 13 or 14 should be tastable. 
From an industrial point the taxes are higher at 18% (home won’t care). Some club members and state fair samples are 18%+ in which case they are labeled as port.

The customer is always correct if you like it it is correct.


DizzyIzzy said:


> John, I am making fruit wines and* AM* looking for a high alcohol content. What makes a 15-18% not *"Good"*? Note: fruit wines I have made thus far are aging so I have no idea what they are going to taste like when aging is done which is the reason for my question.


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## sour_grapes (May 30, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I thought the purpose of adding high proof grain alcohol was to increase the alcohol content? If that is not so, then why have the added expense of the addition of the HPA? Thanks for your response.



I'm unclear why you are talking about adding grain alcohol? No one was suggesting it here....


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## joeswine (May 30, 2020)

As a rule fruit wine can age well if the sanitation is spot on although being drunk quit young is just fine and some like it much better .


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## Johnd (May 31, 2020)

DizzyIzzy said:


> John, I am making fruit wines and* AM* looking for a high alcohol content. What makes a 15-18% not *"Good"*? Note: fruit wines I have made thus far are aging so I have no idea what they are going to taste like when aging is done which is the reason for my question.


If you’re just stoked to make high octane hooch to get hammered on, regardless of science, art, technique, then read no further.
Glad to see you want better that that. Nothing makes it not good inherently, but it makes it challenging, I’ll explain why.
In winemaking, our challenge in making enjoyable wines, is to balance the components to achieve a harmonious, tasty, enjoyable glass of wine. We think about elements like body, ABV %, sweetness, acidity, tannins, oak, etc., and if one is out of proportion, it makes an unbalanced tasting wine. Focus on balance. 
With fruit, many recipes add water, making it hard to get a lot of flavor out of fruit, which is what balances the ABV%, so care is warranted. Adding sugar brings out fruity flavors, so many wines are sweetened to bring out the fruit and balance body with alcohol (which is normally in the 10-12% range in fruit wines). 
In short, it takes a big wine, or a very sweet wine to lug around 15-18% alcohol in a graceful manner.


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## G259 (Jun 1, 2020)

Lol! Early on I made an apple wine @ 16.5%, I felt that I had too! It was dry and harsh, but I got it out of my system! I'm still a little 'hot' at 14% or so, but lowering it as I go, hoping for more balance.


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## robert81650 (Jun 1, 2020)

Fruit wines are much better tasting when alcohol level is around 12 to 13%......just my thoughts


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

I have just done a final rack on my 2nd batch of orange wine with the same recipe i used before. (Apart from this time i chopped the raisins which i did not before and i used all of the peel boiled in bag instead of half previously ) SG of must = 1.108 - Final SG = 990 . My wine is very bitter. 
Can the peel give a bitterness to the wine or could it be the raisins ? 
I am hoping it will mellow with age but compared to the first batch this is really bitter. 

Thanks 

George


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> First welcome to WMT. If your orange wine tastes good you have done a good job  . ,,, A few thoughts:
> 
> * Your starting gravity was high therefore you are stressing the yeast. It will slow down early and fermentation may have run down/ stopped all by itself.
> * Your ambient temperature is high. Yeast doesn’t like 30C.
> ...


Rice guy, 
I used a liquid palm sugar which is very dark almost black in colour, I added 1 litre of palm sugar after doing some taste tests with 5 x 250 ml samples. that was 2 weeks ago and it seems to have cleared right up. I will add a pic for you when i take my SG readings at the weekend. 

To 250 ml i added 30 ml, 40 ml, 50 ml and 60 ml, But to my surprise there was not much difference in SG reading between them all. 1 point from 60 to 30. 
Perhaps the sugar is not that pure, 

Next time i will try making my own fluid with solid palm sugar and boiled water, perhaps this will be sweeter. (And have a difference to how clear the wine will end up. ) 

Thanks for all the information,


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

Another question for you guys , 
IF during fermentation i have say for example 12 % ABV by using my SG readings, and it tastes ok. should i stop the fermentation at this point by adding camp den tablets. ? Or should i be using a different yeast. ? (EC-118 seems to work well in my high temperatures ) 
Do you think D-47 would be a better option for fresh fruit wines ? 

Thanks so much for all your valuable information so far. 
*My first batch of orange*
Bit of a mess up actually. but the wine turned out tasting ok , and only 3 bottles left . LOL 
*2nd Batch orange*
Took more accurate readings and messed with it less, Left in fermenting bucket longer before racking. fermentation has stopped but wine has a bitter after taste even though it is sweet. (I have ordered to 5 gallon glass carboys which are very expensive once you take shipping and import tax into the equation. ( $ 350) This will save me leaving the wine in plastic fermenting buckets for so long. 
*Batch of Apple wine.*
WOW, this turned out really well. a bit too sweet,. but is very fruity and tasty , just bottled yesterday.


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## cmason1957 (Jun 22, 2020)

Campden tablets don't stop fermentation. They might slow it down some, but it really just makes the yeast unhappy. Add a home winemaker, you should set your starting sg to give you three alcohol level you want and plan to back sweeten. Our you can really increase the alcohol content with grain alcohol or some other high alcohol. You can heat it (above 140F, I think) or you can chill it, then sterile filter it, that's a 0.45 micron filter or better. Those are pretty much the choices.


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 22, 2020)

finishing at .990 is a good fermentation


subseageorge said:


> SG of must = 1.108 - Final SG = 990 .
> My wine is very bitter. .Can the peel give a bitterness to the wine or could it be the raisins ? I am hoping it will mellow with age but compared to the first batch . . .


a young wine with CO2 typically is bitter. As this dissipates bitter will decrease. Kit directions suggest stirring with a plastic wine whip on a drill, lots of folks on WMT siphon under vacuum several times, commercial folks just wait and it comes out naturally.
Sugar can mask bitterness, ex sodas are typically carbonated at 2 bar pressure with enough sugar and if you let it go flat it seems unbalanced/ super sweet.

You make me wonder what the analysis of your palm syrup is like, I am guessing for microbiological stability it’s is similar to a simple syrup (sugar water 1:1 or 2:1) (viscosity is ten times greater with 2:1).


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Campden tablets don't stop fermentation. They might slow it down some, but it really just makes the yeast unhappy. Add a home winemaker, you should set your starting sg to give you three alcohol level you want and plan to back sweeten. Our you can really increase the alcohol content with grain alcohol or some other high alcohol. You can heat it (above 140F, I think) or you can chill it, then sterile filter it, that's a 0.45 micron filter or better. Those are pretty much the choices.


Thanks mate, So better to have less sugar at the start and add if require during and or back sweeten at the end to taste. ? 
Would that be a correct?

Cheers 
George


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> finishing at .990 is a good fermentation
> 
> a young wine with CO2 typically is bitter. As this dissipates bitter will decrease. Kit directions suggest stirring with a plastic wine whip on a drill, lots of folks on WMT siphon under vacuum several times, commercial folks just wait and it comes out naturally.
> Sugar can mask bitterness, ex sodas are typically carbonated at 2 bar pressure with enough sugar and if you let it go flat it seems unbalanced/ super sweet.
> ...


Thanks I hope it will get less bitter with time. 
I will check it next week as i am going to leave it in the carboy until i am happy with it. 
The palm sugar, 
I bought some liquid palm sugar for ease of use, but im not sure how much is in it, it is pretty thick viscosity.
I also bought some solid palm sugar which is half the price.


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> Rice guy,
> I used a liquid palm sugar which is very dark almost black in colour, I added 1 litre of palm sugar after doing some taste tests with 5 x 250 ml samples. that was 2 weeks ago and it seems to have cleared right up. I will add a pic for you when i take my SG readings at the weekend.
> 
> To 250 ml i added 30 ml, 40 ml, 50 ml and 60 ml, But to my surprise there was not much difference in SG reading between them all. 1 point from 60 to 30.
> ...


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## Rice_Guy (Jun 22, 2020)

The label states added water, a guess is the lowest percentage of sugar to be stable maybe 50% sugar. 
Another guess is that the liquid is the solid cake melted in water, filtered and then bottled. The US industry does a lot of simple packaging tricks to charge more.

 Very pretty beverage


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## subseageorge (Jun 22, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> The label states added water, a guess is the lowest percentage of sugar to be stable maybe 50% sugar.
> Another guess is that the liquid is the solid cake melted in water, filtered and then bottled. The US industry does a lot of simple packaging tricks to charge more.


Yes, but at least in the west there are some regulations to what is actually in the fluid, dont trust much here, We have even seen fake rice for sale which was made of plastic shavings, crazy,, I think in future i am going to use the cheap unrefined sugar, which i used in my first batch and was good. (50c per KG) i just bought the brown ones to try and see if it drastically changes the taste. My fruit order just turned up (12 kg Bananas / 12 kg Pineapples and 10kg oranges) So i am going to use all the brown sugar up with the banana as it asks for it in the recipe. Going to prep the fruit and freeze. Then star a batch a week for then next 3 weeks.  God im addicted already. lol.. I bought a Fastfermenter too so i will use that for the banana see how it goes.


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## King Hostile (Sep 18, 2020)

Johnd said:


> If you’re just stoked to make high octane hooch to get hammered on, regardless of science, art, technique, then read no further.
> Glad to see you want better that that. Nothing makes it not good inherently, but it makes it challenging, I’ll explain why.
> In winemaking, our challenge in making enjoyable wines, is to balance the components to achieve a harmonious, tasty, enjoyable glass of wine. We think about elements like body, ABV %, sweetness, acidity, tannins, oak, etc., and if one is out of proportion, it makes an unbalanced tasting wine. Focus on balance.
> With fruit, many recipes add water, making it hard to get a lot of flavor out of fruit, which is what balances the ABV%, so care is warranted. Adding sugar brings out fruity flavors, so many wines are sweetened to bring out the fruit and balance body with alcohol (which is normally in the 10-12% range in fruit wines).
> In short, it takes a big wine, or a very sweet wine to lug around 15-18% alcohol in a graceful manner.


I like mine high ABV as well, but also want it nice and easy drinking.


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## DizzyIzzy (Sep 20, 2020)

subseageorge said:


> Yes, but at least in the west there are some regulations to what is actually in the fluid, dont trust much here, We have even seen fake rice for sale which was made of plastic shavings, crazy,, I think in future i am going to use the cheap unrefined sugar, which i used in my first batch and was good. (50c per KG) i just bought the brown ones to try and see if it drastically changes the taste. My fruit order just turned up (12 kg Bananas / 12 kg Pineapples and 10kg oranges) So i am going to use all the brown sugar up with the banana as it asks for it in the recipe. Going to prep the fruit and freeze. Then star a batch a week for then next 3 weeks.  God im addicted already. lol.. I bought a Fastfermenter too so i will use that for the banana see how it goes.


George, I guess Sumatra is definately off my travel list.......LOL..................................Dizzy


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## DizzyIzzy (Sep 20, 2020)

King Hostile said:


> I like mine high ABV as well, but also want it nice and easy drinking.


Hostile.....................I agree, one can get a smooth-tasting wine that *does *have a higher ABV................................................Dizzy


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## subseageorge (Dec 2, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Palm wine from coconut palms is traditional. It differs from European style grape wines in that at best it is 5% alcohol therefore not very stable.
> There are several methods for producing Palm sugar concentrates. In general a method which uses high heat (over 160C) produces browning reactions which contribute flavor. Coconut palm sugar has contaminants as protein and mineral ie it may cloud a wine and will have some flavor. Locals find the flavor desirable. High temperature production with resulting browning will carry through into a finished wine.
> You are combining palm sugar with a fruit that contributes part of the sugar. There will be some dilution factor of the palm flavor.
> 
> ...


Palm sugar turned out really well. Tastes very nice.


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