# Bladder press versus basket press



## fafrd (Jun 18, 2017)

I have use of a #50 basket press which works nicely, but I have the opportunity to access a new Lancman 80-liter rotating bladder press: https://lancman.net/product/fruit-press-lancman/vspx/

I've read that bladder presses can apply greater average pressure to the skins while applying less peak pressure to the seeds (because the rubber bladder is more conformal than the wooden plunger), resulting in more 'goid' tannins from the skins and less 'bad' tannins from the seeds.

Easier cleaning (at least with the tilting model), faster press time, and single-handed operation are other pluses, but my primary motivation is improved wine (meaning greater tannin extraction for heavy reds).

The only negatives I've read about are the possibility of a bladder bursting and ruining a $1000 batch of wine, but that seems like an exceedingly liw-liklihood event after speaking with a couple manufacturers.

So does anyone have expeience with both basket and bladder presses? Which is better for heavy reds? Are there any other pros and cons I am missing (other than the higher cost of a bladder press)?


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## Johny99 (Jun 18, 2017)

I used to use a no. 40 basket press. Last year I bought the Lanceman. Simply put I love it. Much less work as the water pressure does the ratcheting. I think I get a more even press from the bladder and thus more gentle. Much more controllable. Note, I never had the patience to wait 30-40 minutes for each press in the basket. I also hate pulling the basket apart and fluffing the cake. 

For whites it is the best. I crushed last year but plan on trying to whole cluster press this fall. No way I could have done that in my basket press.

The Lanceman is well made. I went for the all stainless with the tilt frame, as I'm getting old and I figure it is my last press. I also recommend the mesh "bag". Not necessary for grapes but it sure makes it easy to pull out the cake!

If you can afford the $ I recommend it.


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## fafrd (Jun 19, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> I used to use a no. 40 basket press. Last year I bought the Lanceman. Simply put I love it. Much less work as the water pressure does the ratcheting. I think I get a more even press from the bladder and thus more gentle. Much more controllable. Note, I never had the patience to wait 30-40 minutes for each press in the basket. I also hate pulling the basket apart and fluffing the cake.
> 
> For whites it is the best. I crushed last year but plan on trying to whole cluster press this fall. No way I could have done that in my basket press.
> 
> ...



Appreciate the post. Aside from the cost, are there any downsides to the Lancman versus a basket press in your experience?

What size do you have any how many pounds of grapes are you able to fit through a single press run?

What draws me to a bladder press is the control (as well as the single-handed operation). I found this article from Ridge interesting: https://blog.ridgewine.com/2014/08/20/getting-out-the-juice-press-operation-and-press-fractions/

That level of control (and maximum pressure) seem to be pretty much impossible with a ratchet press...

What pressure do you typically press your reds with before you quit?


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## AkTom (Jun 19, 2017)

That looks sweet. How much do they run? I need to sell my house and move.


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## fafrd (Jun 19, 2017)

AkTom said:


> That looks sweet. How much do they run? I need to sell my house and move.



About $1800 new with tax (picked up).

Roughly 2X the cost of a new equivalent-sized basket press.


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## AkTom (Jun 19, 2017)

Thanks. Some things are worth paying for. This looks like it would be too.


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## UBB (Jun 19, 2017)

I'll be moving to a bladder press in the next season or two. It's not quite in the budget yet. I've refurbished an old circa 1930's basket press with brand new wood for the basket and press plate. Hope to get a nother year or two of it before retiring it for good.


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## Johny99 (Jun 20, 2017)

fafrd said:


> Appreciate the post. Aside from the cost, are there any downsides to the Lancman versus a basket press in your experience?
> 
> What size do you have any how many pounds of grapes are you able to fit through a single press run?
> 
> ...



I can't think of any negatives as compared with the basket press. You do get a dryer press cake, more evenly dry so I suppose you could say possibly more undesirable components, but I can't taste it and usually due to volume, I combine my press fraction with free run. 

Well one disadvantage just occurred to me. It has to be full. I went for the 80 liter. If you only have 50 lbs or so, you either have to pre inflate the bladder, or add press cake from another press. That isn't an issue pressing the last part of a lot as I just put some press cake back in. However, when pressing a ~50 lb lot of white grapes, I had to partially inflate. Easy to do but my bladder doesn't inflate symmetrically so I had to kinda pull it over to fill. Might just be my bladder but it could be a common issue as well. In my mind I keep trying to invent some sort of annular spacer. In practice so far, I've just pressed the large lots first to have the cake as filler. 

You do have lots of control and just adjust the pressure regulator for control. Now mind you I just got it last year, but so fair I start with a setting of about a bar, let that do its thing while I socialize, then slowly increase. I tended to stop at 1.35 to 1.5 bar, just not knowing. I did press a portion of Cab franc at 1.5 and 2 bar to see the difference. Nothing I could taste right off and no notable difference as of Christmas, but I haven't tasted since then. 

So, last year I harvested just a hair under 3000 lbs over 4 weekends. Whites were ~300 lbs on two Saturdays and we picked, crushed and pressed, and cleaned up for lunch within 3 hours or so. It did take longer to clean up than press, that's all I remember. My crusher can handle 2 tons an hour, so that part didn't take too long.

The Ridge post is interesting. I did at one point find a long winded treatise on presses that noted the commercial screw and pneumatic presses are entirely different than small scale basket or bladder presses and the latter have a hard time getting enough internal pressure to get too many harsh constituents. Can't remember where that was but it made me worry less about being overly harsh in pressing. 

P.S. AKTom if you in the are this fall i'll put you to work with it and you can see for yourself.


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## AkTom (Jun 20, 2017)

John, I'll be in Portland in August for a wedding. That's as close as I'll get for a while. When I get home the house goes on the market.


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## fafrd (Jun 20, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> I can't think of any negatives as compared with the basket press. You do get a dryer press cake, more evenly dry so I suppose you could say possibly more undesirable components, but I can't taste it and usually due to volume, I combine my press fraction with free run.
> 
> Well one disadvantage just occurred to me. It has to be full. I went for the 80 liter. If you only have 50 lbs or so, you either have to pre inflate the bladder, or add press cake from another press. That isn't an issue pressing the last part of a lot as I just put some press cake back in. However, when pressing a ~50 lb lot of white grapes, I had to partially inflate. Easy to do but my bladder doesn't inflate symmetrically so I had to kinda pull it over to fill. Might just be my bladder but it could be a common issue as well. In my mind I keep trying to invent some sort of annular spacer. In practice so far, I've just pressed the large lots first to have the cake as filler.
> 
> ...



John,

thanks for this very comprehensive and interesting post. If Washington State was a bit closer to the Bay Area, I would love to come by to see your press 

Sounds as though you are pretty happy with it. We're probably going to be going with an 80-L as well, used almost exclusively for reds.

So while I realize that whites will be different than reds, I'd appreviate any insight and/experience you might have as to whether my estimates are correct:

I'm assuming 1000 lbs of red must can pretty safely be handled through three batches (so 333 lbs of must will fit in the basket, assuming bladder has been compressed). Using my basket press, 333 lbs of must wiil deliver 25-26 gallons of loose post-free-run, pre-press solids that compress to half that volume once pressing is done (so about 13 gallons of solids per 333 pounds once pressing is complete). So I'm thinking that volume of soluds should fit into the 80-L (21-gallon) basket, even after the volume consumed by the bladder is taken into account.

I don't know how much volume you assume is consumed by the bladder in the empty/compressed state, but assuming it can be compressed down to 1-2 gallons when it is flattened, the basket may only hold 19-20 gallons of loose solids and will probably not hold the entire 25-26 gallon volume of loose solids initially.

As I have done with my basket press, I was thinking I could use 'sequential-loading' to get the full volume of loose solids in if needed:

-fill with loose solids
-inflate bladder until solids are compressed by ~20% (or alternatively compress by hand in press or preconpress by hand)
-empty bladder, at least enough to make space for the remaining solids
-load additional loose solids
-compress to completion

Going over these numbers, I suppose an alternative would be to just bite the bullet and use 4 press cycles of 250 lbs / 19-20 gallons of loose solids each.

What would be your suggestion as the easiest / quickest manner to press 1000 lbs of red must (~77 gallons of loose solids)? 3 pressings or 4?

And as far as minimum, I was told the basket needs to be 'at least half-full', meaning at least 40-liters / ~11 gallons of loose solids corresponding to about 150 lbs of red must - would you agree with this, or would you think that by pre-filling the bladder, the basket could be filled with as little 27-liters / 7-gallons of loose solids (meaning from 100 lbs of red grapes)?

With my basket press, cleaning was involved enough that I was highly motivated to 'pack it to the gills' and minimize the number of press runs / cleanings. With a bladder press (and especially this Lancman tilting model), unclear to me whether same approach makes sense or just pressing (and cleaning) multiple batches would easier.

Which reminds me of one last question for you. If one were to use 'sequential-loading' to pack as much as possible into a lancman 80-liter press, would their be any concernes about being able to empty it when the pressing is complete? If the bladder has successfully 'filled' to its relaxed volume, the solid must 'tube' should slip off. But if the bladder is recompressed / emptied through suction at that stage and additional solids are loaded into that space, it should be impossible to refill the bladder back to that same relaxed volume. Would you have any concerns about not being able to empty the press in such a situatiin or is it a non-issue (impossible to fill enough that it cannot be emptied)?


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## balatonwine (Jun 21, 2017)

For what it is worth: the Speidel 90 liter bladder press is a little larger than the 80 liter Lancman, and $500 cheaper in price:

https://morewinemaking.com/products/speidel-bladder-press-90-liters.html

It does not have the tilt feature for clean out, but for the smaller 40 l and 90 l sizes, you really do not need a tilt feature for clean out. The basket is light, and just lift if up and the cake comes with it. See this video, at about 4 minutes in:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoWtq1f2JRc[/ame]


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## fafrd (Jun 21, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> For what it is worth: the Speidel 90 liter bladder press is a little larger than the 80 liter Lancman, and $500 cheaper in price:
> 
> https://morewinemaking.com/products/speidel-bladder-press-90-liters.html
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link. Can the 90 liter be clraned as easily iby one person as the 40 liter cleaned in that video?

Lancman makes a non-tilting 80-liter model for $1450 delivered: https://pleasanthillgrain.com/stainless-hydropress-fruit-apple-wine-grape

That's about the same price as the 90 liter Speidel with tax and between the extra 10 liters of capacity and the stainless pan, I think I have a small preference for the stainless pan.

The basket press I use has a painted pan and after many seasobs of use, there are paint flakes and corrosion that I need to put significant effort into cleaning before pressing...

But I agree, if an 80 or 90 liter bladder press can cleaned as easily (and single-handedly) as shown in that video, $350 for a tilt mechanism may not be worth it...


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## Johny99 (Jun 22, 2017)

AkTom said:


> John, I'll be in Portland in August for a wedding. That's as close as I'll get for a while. When I get home the house goes on the market.



ABB heck, what's 5 hours drive for an Alaskan? Come on by


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## Johny99 (Jun 22, 2017)

fafrd;6525
So while I realize that whites will be different than reds said:


> Sorry, I messed up trying to shorten the quote, reply starts here.
> 
> I think if you were really trying to push it, by letting free run come off and manually pressing down, you might do it in 3. However, I find it so easy to press and dump, I'm not sure I'd worry about a 4th being much more work.
> 
> ...


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## balatonwine (Jun 22, 2017)

fafrd said:


> Thanks for the link. Can the 90 liter be clraned as easily iby one person as the 40 liter cleaned in that video?



Of course, that is a a manufacturer's video, so it is extra designed to look easy. 

So to put this into perspective how easy it is (or not): 1000 lbs of destemmed grapes will create about 100 lbs of pumace (i.e. about 10% by weight). If you put in 300 lbs of grapes, you will lift, approximately 30 lbs of pumace (actually a little less for red grapes which should press dryer than whites). That is doable if you do not sequentially load (which is not really necessary since these units really are easy to empty and clean between loads -- unlike a basket press where sequential loading is more common). But if you *want* to lift 30 lbs, or not, is a personal** decision based on one's needs. Much like if one gets a hand cranked crusher destemmer versus one with an electric motor to process a ton of grapes.

Finally, and for what it is worth, the 90 l unit I consider the upper limit without a tilt feature and the lower limit where the tilt feature may be useful depending on ones needs.

** And by _personal_ I assume there is no one wondering why you are spending that much money to begin with.


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## balatonwine (Jun 22, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> Why the tilt? Same reason as I went all stainless. One, i can and two I'm 59 and I hope to be at this another 20 years or so. I want this to be the last press I buy. Anything I can do to spare my back is worth it.



Those are all good reasons. And are things to consider even for a 29 year old looking to buy a press.


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## fafrd (Jun 22, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> Of course, that is a a manufacturer's video, so it is extra designed to look easy.



Yeah, that pommace 'tube' is only about 1" thick, so of course if weighs very little. With a 90 liter press and filled to the brim so that the pommace 'tube' is close to the entire volume beyond the relaxed bladder, it would probably be a different story...



> So to put this into perspective how easy it is (or not): 1000 lbs of destemmed grapes will create about 100 lbs of pumace (i.e. about 10% by weight).


Where are you coming up with that 10% by weight figure? Seems far too low to me. Here is how I would estimate for 1000 lbs of must:

-whole-cluster grapes: ~1100 lbs (stems representing about 10% of weight)
-destemmed and crushed: ~121 gallons of must weighing 1000 lbs
-juice (both free-run and juice): 65% = ~78.65 gallons weighing ~629.2 lbs
-pommace: 35% = ~42.35 gallons weighing ~370.8 lbs (1000 - 629.2)



> If you put in 300 lbs of grapes, you will lift, approximately 30 lbs of pumace (actually a little less for red grapes which should press dryer than whites).



I have not weighed my juice or pommace, but by volume, I get about 10-11 gallons of pommace from 300 lbs of grapes. And since the solids sink, I assume they are heavier by volume than the juice. If I subtract 30 pounds for the stems and 184 lbs for the 23 gallons of post-press juice, I come up with 86 lbs for that pommace 'cake' (which was removed in pieces, so no idea if that weight is accurate). If I used the same 8-pounds-per-gallon weight for pommace as I do for juice, that weight would have been 80-88 lbs (so pretty similar density to the juice).

Would be great to hear from anyone that has loaded 300 pounds of grapes (33 gallons of must) into their bladder press in a single shot - does the pommace tube weigh only 30 lbs or closer to 80 lbs?



> That is doable if you do not sequentially load (which is not really necessary since these units really are easy to empty and clean between loads -- unlike a basket press where sequential loading is more common). But if you *want* to lift 30 lbs, or not, is a personal** decision based on one's needs. Much like if one gets a hand cranked crusher destemmer versus one with an electric motor to process a ton of grapes.
> 
> Finally, and for what it is worth, the 90 l unit I consider the upper limit without a tilt feature and the lower limit where the tilt feature may be useful depending on ones needs.



For 30 pounds of pommace loaded, I would't bother with a tilt mechanism. If it can be closer to 80-lbs, I would not be able to lift that / clean that single-handedly without a tilt feature, so it would become attractive.

Seems as though a key factor is how full you plan to load your press. If you put 900 pounds of grapes through 5 press runs, each 6-gallon must 'tube' weighs about 50 lbs and should be relatively easy to clean single-handedly (and each of those must tubes will be about 1.4" thick, like in that Speidel video ).

But if you want to put that same must through only three press runs, each must tube will weigh over 80 lbs and the 10-gallon must tube will be closer to 2.5" thick.

Aside from the savings of water and time, I prefer the idea of fewer press runs for consistency, but once sequential loading is required (necessitating emptying the bladder anyway), it's probably not worth it.



> ** And by _personal_ I assume there is no one wondering why you are spending that much money to begin with.



Nothing spent yet  but I may have the opportunity to team up with another area winemaker who has been renting Speidel 90-liter bladder presses for $200 / season and complaining about how difficult they are to clean (by himself).

For what it is worth, he gets 900 lbs of grapes through 3 press runs on a Speidel 90...


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## balatonwine (Jun 22, 2017)

fafrd said:


> Where are you coming up with that 10% by weight figure?



1) From my experience. 

2) From Viginia Tech : "_in general 1 ton of harvested grapes produces 100lbs of stems and 160 to 240 lbs of pomace_ ...". So, since I said and referred only to "destemmed grapes", so one can ignore the 100 lbs of stems. And if one takes 1 ton =2000 lbs, average of 160 and 240 is 200 lbs, and 200 is 10% of 2000, so 30 lbs expected from 300 lbs. 



fafrd said:


> -juice (both free-run and juice): 65% = ~78.65 gallons weighing ~629.2 lbs



I will add a tiny correction: one gallon of water weights about 8.35 lbs, but grape juice also has quite a bit of sugar in it too so will be closer to 9 lbs per gallon so expect about 700 lbs for the 78 gal of juice. That leaves 300 lbs for pumace, versus 200 Virginia Tech averages and not too far from the upper range of 240. So the two results are "close enough", in my humble opinion, and you can go with your calculation since your numbers are based on your experience which counts a lot (and anyway, always better to over estimate a bit here, after all, you will be the one lifting it).



fafrd said:


> complaining about how difficult they are to clean (by himself).



Does he use the bag insert? If not, then, yeah, getting grape squish out of the tiny slits is not fun (especially if there was any drying of the grape skins and squish on the basket (then get out your hammer and chisel**), which can happen if one does sequential loading). But those issues will be true of any of the bladder presses as they use similar basket designs. Best practice, for easist cleaning, is to press, immediately empty, clean (hose down well, minor brush work if needed), then reassemble and reload fresh, then press again.

But, for transparency, my experience with the bladder press is limited to larger units (over 200 l) and to pressing and intermediate cleaning (as described above which left a pretty clean basket) to see if I should get one to replace my 200 l basket press (now there is something really fun to clean all by oneself....). But I do not own a bladder press myself, at this time yet, and have not done a "work is done" cleaning getting everything out of all hidden nooks and crannies.


** I am being a little facetious. But just a little.


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## fafrd (Jun 22, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> 1) From my experience.
> 
> 2) From Viginia Tech : "_in general 1 ton of harvested grapes produces 100lbs of stems and 160 to 240 lbs of pomace_ ...". So, since I said and referred only to "destemmed grapes", so one can ignore the 100 lbs of stems. And if one takes 1 ton =2000 lbs, average of 160 and 240 is 200 lbs, and 200 is 10% of 2000, so 30 lbs expected from 300 lbs.



Thanks for the additional detail - this helps me to see where I've been off in my estimates. For red wine, alcohol is lighter than sugar, so the weight of the escaping CO2 also needs to be taken into account.

Also, if the virgina tech estimate is 5% of weight for stems, that's good enough for me and I will replace the 10% estimate I've been using.

For commercial wineries, the lower amount of pomace is probably realistic, but for small home winemakers, the larger figure of 240 lbs probably makes more sense.

So my revised estimate:

316 lbs of grapes
300 lbs / 35 gallons of must (8.57 lbs / gallon of unfermented juice)
38 lbs of pomace (240/2000 x 316) filling ~12 gallons (3 lb / gallon )
23 gallons of wine weighing ~191 lbs (8.3 lbs/gallon)
weight of fremented sugar & released CO2: ~70 lbs [300 - (191+38)]

So I'm now within ~20% of your estimate and if I assume that a bladder press will press the must dryer and result in 200 lbs of pomace per 2000 lbs of grapes, I get 31.6 lbs of pommace (and either a higher volume of wine pressed out or a larger weight lost to sugar and CO2).

I'm a little confused by the weight / gallon of pommace - I would have thought it was denser than wine and would sink...



> I will add a tiny correction: one gallon of water weights about 8.35 lbs, but grape juice also has quite a bit of sugar in it too so will be closer to 9 lbs per gallon so expect about 700 lbs for the 78 gal of juice. That leaves 300 lbs for pumace, versus 200 Virginia Tech averages and not too far from the upper range of 240. So the two results are "close enough", in my humble opinion, and you can go with your calculation since your numbers are based on your experience which counts a lot (and anyway, always better to over estimate a bit here, after all, you will be the one lifting it).



Accounting for weight lost to sugar and CO2, I'm pretty comfortable that 30-40 lbs of pomace for 300 lbs of must looks reasonable (though would love to hear from anyone with an 80-90 liter bladder press - how much does the pomace 'tube' after pressing a full 300 lbs of must weigh?



> Does he use the bag insert?


 pretty sure he does - I believe it was the weight and unwieldiness that was the issue, but will check.



> If not, then, yeah, getting grape squish out of the tiny slits is not fun (especially if there was any drying of the grape skins and *squish on the basket* (then get out your hammer and chisel**), which can happen if one does sequential loading). But those issues will be true of any of the bladder presses as they use similar basket designs. Best practice, for easist cleaning, is to press, immediately empty, clean (hose down well, minor brush work if needed), then reassemble and reload fresh, then press again.



What do you mean by 'squish' on the basket? Dried grape skins attached to the insides of the basket?

I see MoreWine claiming that 45 minutes is a typical press clcle time with both the 40-liter and 90-liter Speidel bladder presses, while Lancman claims a 15-minute press cycle time for essentially all of their presses (40 & 80-liter fixed; 80 & 120 liter tilting). I would appreciate to hear from anyone with experience with any of these bladder presses to comment on what cycle time they believe is realistic for a single-handed operator.



> But, for transparency, my experience with the bladder press is limited to larger units (over 200 l) and to pressing and intermediate cleaning (as described above which left a pretty clean basket) to see if I should get one to replace my 200 l basket press (now there is something really fun to clean all by oneself....). But I do not own a bladder press myself, at this time yet, and have not done a "work is done" cleaning getting everything out of all hidden nooks and crannies.
> 
> 
> ** I am being a little facetious. But just a little.



I'm kind of in your same shoes and appreciate your perspective. My #50 basket press works well to press up to a quarter-ton of grapes in one run, but cleanup is a bear.

My primary motivation for a bladder press is greater control over press lots and hopefully more tannins out of my skins.

But it seems as though one tradeoff with bladder presses is faster/easier cleaning at the cost of being smaller (meaning multiple press runs).

An 80-liter tilting Lancman bladder press costs twice as much as a 40-liter fixed bladder press. For 900 lbs of grapes / 100 gallons of must, we're probably talking about 3 press runs in the 80-liter versus 6 in the 40-liter.

If it's 45 minutes per run and that translates to 2-1/4 hours versus 4-1/2 hours, the 40-liter doesn't seem like a very attractive option (despite the savings).

But if 15 minute press runs are realistic and the difference is 45-minutes versus 90-minutes total, the 40-liter press may be worth considering.

My suspicion is that 15-minutes is for 'as fast as you can go' single-lot pressing (such as when pressing apples), and I plan to make press lots in 0.1 bar increments after 1.5 or 2 bar. So if your planning for press lots, fewer press runs is probably the only viable way.

Any inputs from those with experience with these 40-80-90-120 liter bladder presses appreciated.


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## fafrd (Jun 23, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> For what it is worth: the Speidel 90 liter bladder press is a little larger than the 80 liter Lancman, and $500 cheaper in price:
> 
> https://morewinemaking.com/products/speidel-bladder-press-90-liters.html
> 
> ...



I have not been able to find any good videos showing the Lanceman 80L tilting hydropress being emptied, but did find this video of an 80L tilting press from one of their competitors: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnd5NgZa4Ew[/ame] (emptying starts at 1:20).

Also, in terms of the weight being managed, emptying these presses involves moving the pomace tube with the basket, and the basket alone weighs about 25 lbs: https://morewinepro.com/products/replacement-stainless-basket-ger104.html

The virgina tech article says that about 160-240 pounds of pomace for 2000 pounds of grapes, or about 30-40 pounds if a half-ton is being pressed in three runs. So pomace tube + basket ends up weighing 55-65 pounds, which jibes with the guy bracing the basket+tube with his thighs as he swings it over to wheelbarrow. 

The speidel video is for a 40-liter press with a basket weighing 18 lbs, so basket + pomace tube weight is 31-38 pounds which can be lifted over the bladder very easily, but for the 80 or 90 liter hydro presses with basket+tube weighing twice that, lifting that off if the bladder single-handedly seems like a stretch.

The Winemaker I'm talking to either lifts off the tube if he has a helper or he breaks up the tube and removes it from the basket by hand if he us alone. He says he is unable to lift the 90 L basket+tube off of the bladder after pressing 300 lbs of grapes-worth of must if he us alone.

Is anyone doung that with an 80 or 90 Liter bladder press? (single-handed operation by lifting tube off of bladder)

Until I hear to the contrary, my current take is as follows:

40-liter fixed: easy single-handed operation

80 or 90- liter fixed: easy dual-handed operation; troublesome single-handed operation

80-liter tilting: easy single handed-operation

120-liter tilting: easy single-handed operation (if can pull directly into a wheelbarrow)


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## balatonwine (Jun 23, 2017)

fafrd said:


> I have not been able to find any good videos showing the Lanceman 80L tilting hydropress being emptied, but did find this video of an 80L tilting press from one of their competitors:.



Two things:

1) Gives a good idea about weight of lifting the 80 l press basket and 

2) That is the wrong way to empty a tilt bladder press (pretty hard on the bladder whacking it like that).

Here is the right way (shown at about 2:30 min), which shows the whole point and efficiency of the tilt feature:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvJyIlkn59E[/ame]

By the way, the Zottel is also from Slovenia, like the Lanceman. And I am more familiar with the Zottel model, but they all pretty much work the same. In fact, most of the stainless steel wine equipment here in Hungary (you can check my bio -- American expat living in Hungary) is either Zottel or Inox.




fafrd said:


> Also, in terms of the weight being managed, emptying these presses involves moving the pomace tube with the basket, and the basket alone weighs about 25 lbs:



Sure thing. I said it was doable. I did not say it would be easy. 

FWIIW: 50 lbs is the weight of just *one side* of my basket press which I lift on and off 3 or 4 times a day during pressing. Then I got smart. Bought a small electric hoist and rotary hoist frame. A small 110 lb single line (220 lb double line) hoist and the frame combo will set you back about $120 at Amazon (about $60 each). And quite frankly, I keep finding things to use that hoist for. A good generic investment. I am even getting lazy, using it to move things as small as my 30 l demijohns. But... I see no handles on the Speidel basket, so some sort of strap would be needed, but how it would work, or if that is even worth the bother... Maybe not.




fafrd said:


> 40-liter fixed.....80 or 90- liter fixed...
> 80-liter tilting... 120-liter tilting



Yes, so many decisions. I have a similar quandary, but just a bit larger in scale. One of the reasons I did not buy a bladder press yet is I really wonder if at least a 400 l model would be better. Long term planning indicates 250 is maybe just too small for what will start to roll into the winery once my newly planted vines reach maturity. The 400 l models cost about $6,000. But the work savings by fewer cleanings, reloading, in the long run may be worth it. Still thinking about it.



fafrd said:


> What do you mean by 'squish' on the basket? Dried grape skins attached to the insides of the basket?



I think that was my white wine bias coming out. Not so much the skins as the pulp, which is not much an issue with red wines fermented on their skin.


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## fafrd (Jun 23, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1) Gives a good idea about weight of lifting the 80 l press basket and
> 
> ...



Yeah,that's the way to do it - easy-peazy 

Pity Lancman's competition has not yet lined up distribution in the US - they seem well designed (and less expensive, at least based on European pricing).



> Sure thing. I said it was doable. I did not say it would be easy.
> 
> FWIIW: 50 lbs is the weight of just *one side* of my basket press which I lift on and off 3 or 4 times a day during pressing. Then I got smart. Bought a small electric hoist and rotary hoist frame. A small 110 lb single line (220 lb double line) hoist and the frame combo will set you back about $120 at Amazon (about $60 each). And quite frankly, I keep finding things to use that hoist for. A good generic investment. I am even getting lazy, using it to move things as small as my 30 l demijohns. But... I see no handles on the Speidel basket, so some sort of strap would be needed, but how it would work, or if that is even worth the bother... Maybe not.



The half-baskets on my #50 ratchet press are pretty hefty as well, but lifting up to waist height is very different than lifting overhead.

The hoist idea is interesting, but throws KISS out the window. For single-handed operation, that video of the guy pulling the pomace tube into a wheelbarrow is probably worth 2-3x that incremental cost...

On the subject of weight, no big deal, but I think that article from Virgina Tech may be off by 2x. It first says 100 pounds of stems and 160-240 pounds of pomace per ton, and then goes on to say stems and pomace from 3 tons of grapes equals about one ton. That would mean 1700 pounds of pomace for 6000 pounds of grapes or about 567 pounds per ton. If the entire first sentance was intended to apply to a half ton instead of a ton, that would mean 600 pounds of stems and 1400 pounds of pomace in 3 tons, or 467 pounds of pomace per ton.

I found this article, which jibes more closely with my experience (page 15): http://www.fao.org/docrep/018/i3273e/i3273e.pdf

It says about 5% stems and 15% dry pommace by weight (and 25% - 40% wet pomace by weight). That would mean 100 pounds of stems and 300 pounds of pomace per ton.

Translated back to 300 pounds, that would mean a pomace tube weighing 45 pounds (and 70 pounds with basket).

It also means less of a mystery in terms of starting weight:

1000 pounds of grapes
50 pounds of stems
950 pounds of fresh must (@25 BRIX or S.G. of 1.092)
61 pounds lost to fermentation once S.G. has reduced to 0.990
590.5 pounds of pressed wine (71.5 gallons @ S.G. of 0.990)
150 pounds of dry pomace
901.5 pounds of stems + fermentation loss + wine + pommace
98.5 pounds or 10% of 'mystery' loss

Note that the above uses the 15% figure for 'dry' pomace and if the lower 25% figure for 'wet' pomace is used instead, that's an additional 100 pounds of wine stuck in the pomace and there is no mystery. That would also mean a pomace tube from 300 lbs weighing as little as 45 pounds if dry and as much as 75 pounds if wet, meaning 70-100 pounds including the basket.

According to that same article, the seeds weigh another 4.5% so depending on whether you throw all of the seeds into the press or strain as many out as possible, that's another 45-pound (for 1000 pounds of grapes) factor that can help explain this discrepancy.

And 'yeast lees' represent another 5.5% or 55 pounds, so if you press dry leaving most of the seeds and yeast lees in the fermenter, there is no remaining mystery (and the pomace tube from 300 pounds of pressed grapes is about 45 pounds - 70 pounds with basket).




> Yes, so many decisions. I have a similar quandary, but just a bit larger in scale. One of the reasons I did not buy a bladder press yet is I really wonder if at least a 400 l model would be better. Long term planning indicates 250 is maybe just too small for what will start to roll into the winery once my newly planted vines reach maturity. The 400 l models cost about $6,000. But the work savings by fewer cleanings, reloading, in the long run may be worth it. Still thinking about it.



Yeah, the primary trade-offs seem to be minimum press volume and maximum press volume versus cost (at least if single-handed operation is a requirement). We're in no rush and I appreciate your perspective and advice.

I'm still struggling to understand how much must can be loaded into one of these bladder presses with a bit of sequential loading. All the videos I've seen have pomace tubes of 1-2" thick, which tells me the press was nowhere close to being fully loaded. If you press to 0.25 bar, that is supposed to get most of the juice out, which should mean you can empty the bladder and load another 1/3 basket or so. If it's possible to get 500 lbs of must into an 80-liter bladder press with a single sequential load, we'd forget about the 120-liter model...



> I think that was my white wine bias coming out. Not so much the skins as the pulp, which is not much an issue with red wines fermented on their skin.



Got it -thanks


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## balatonwine (Jun 24, 2017)

fafrd said:


> On the subject of weight, no big deal, but I think that article from Virgina Tech may be off by 2x.



You bet, no big deal. But still.... an interesting issue to ponder. I did note the error. Took it that they meant 1/2 ton pomace per 3 tons, which would fit their earlier numbers. Would have to contact the authors to ask what really happened with their numbers either way.



fafrd said:


> The hoist idea is interesting, but throws KISS out the window. For single-handed operation, that video of the guy pulling the pomace tube into a wheelbarrow is probably worth 2-3x that incremental cost...



Absolutely. Not KISS. And tilt is probably very much worth the cost in the 90 l range if one plans to really pack the basket with multiple loads like with a basket press.

But, still, the 9 year old in me really finds it fun using the hoist.


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## Johny99 (Jun 24, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1) Gives a good idea about weight of lifting the 80 l press basket and
> 
> ...



That is how I unload. It makes the net bag worth the money. I tried it once without the bag, bad news. Hard on the hands. 

I now have two hoists. One in the barn to lift the picking and fermenting gear into the attic for storage and one in the winery for lifting barrels. Yup I'm getting lazy, but having overstressed my back and tearing a rotator cuff lifting a full, 100l, barrel, I don't want that again. Besides, @balatonwine, you are right, they are just plain fun


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## fafrd (Jun 29, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> You bet, no big deal. But still.... an interesting issue to ponder. I did note the error. Took it that they meant 1/2 ton pomace per 3 tons, which would fit their earlier numbers. Would have to contact the authors to ask what really happened with their numbers either way.


I found the breakdown presented in the FAO document to be far more detailed and consistent with my own experience than the numbers from Virginia Tech.

It matters alot what is being included and what is not.

If you add up the FAO numbers for 'stems', 'seeds', 'yeast & lees' and 'pomace' for a ton of grapes, you come up with 610 lbs from a ton of grapes, or 1830 lbs from 3 tons, so close enough to VT's 'a ton per three tons', especially when error bars are taken into account.

The interesting thing about this analysis is that only 15% or 300 lbs / ton is pure 'pomace' which is what matters when talking about pressing (and this is actually significantly higher than the '160-240 lbs/ton' than the VT article states, probably because they meant 1/2 ton and possibly because they include seeds as part of what they call 'pomace').

So if you are able to leave lees and most of the seeds in the fermenter, the dry (pressed) pomace is only 15% or about 45 pounds for 300 lbs of grapes. Seeds sink, so by definition they must be denser than wine, but if you assume a 1:1 ratio of volume to weight, 4.5% seeds in 300 lbs of grapes would correspond to 13.5 lbs or 1.62 gallons. And using the same argument for lees, they constitute up to another 6% by weight or 18 lbs for 300 lbs of grapes which corresponds to as much as 2.12 gallons of solids in the fermenter (more difficult to seperate out since lees go into suspension so easily).

If you take the 40% figure as representative of the weight of unpressed must/pomace (absent all the free-run), that represents 120 lbs for 300 lbs of grapes consisting of 37.5% or 45 lbs dry pomace (15% / 40%) and 62.5% wine which will be pressed out and which weighs about 75 lbs (corresponding to about 9 gallons). 

Adding in the 25 lb weight of the basket and even the 70 lbs basket+pomace tube that results ftom 300 lbs of pressed grapes is probably beyond what a single (average) male can realistically handle, but the importance of this analysis to me is the benefit of seperating out the seeds and lees prior to pressing:

Seperating out seed and lees through delestage or straining out skins prior to pressing reduces volume and weight in the press (win-win). I dumped everything from the fermenter with 500 lbs of grapes into my #50 basket press and it didn't quite fit, so I had to use a bit of sequential fill. If I had left out 22.5 lbs of seeds and 30 lbs of yeast lees, my pomace cake would have been smaller and lighter, but more importantly the pre-press volume would have been over 6 gallons less and the entire load of unpressed pomace would probably have fit into the 34 gallon basket.

An 80-liter bladder press is less than 2/3 that volume, so no way to fit the same amount of unpressed wet pomace into it without at least one cycle of sequential load, but whether it's to fit more unpressed volume into the press or to reduce the weight of the resulting pomace cake to make it easier to manage, keeping seeds and lees out of the press seems like a good idea...




> Absolutely. Not KISS. And tilt is probably very much worth the cost in the 90 l range if one plans to really pack the basket with multiple loads like with a basket press.
> 
> But, still, the 9 year old in me really finds it fun using the hoist.



I'm interested to hear from anyone who has emptied the pomace from 300+ pounds of grapes from their bladder press single-handedly without using a hoist or leaving the basket in place and taking the pomace out in chunks by hand.

If you plan to press 300 lbs of grapes solo and want an easy and quick empty/clean cycle, investing in a tilting basket or a hoist seems like the only relatively painless options...


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## fafrd (Jun 29, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> That is how I unload. It makes the net bag worth the money. I tried it once without the bag, bad news. Hard on the hands.
> 
> I now have two hoists. One in the barn to lift the picking and fermenting gear into the attic for storage and one in the winery for lifting barrels. Yup I'm getting lazy, but having overstressed my back and tearing a rotator cuff lifting a full, 100l, barrel, I don't want that again. Besides, @balatonwine, you are right, they are just plain fun



From your earlier posts, sounds like you pretty easily and quickly empty your tilting 80-liter bladder press solo (using the mesh bag ).

With a helper or two (with strong backs ), sounds like an 80 or 90 liter bladder press can be emptied by lifting the basket off of the bladder, but the availability of those helpers is a big constraint that I want to avoid. And from all reports, having to empty an 80 or 90 liter bladder press by hand leaving the basket in place is pretty painful...

What maximum pressure do you typically press to and have you ever done any experimenting with press lots (keeping the juices from different pressures seperate, at least until they've been tasted)?


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## fafrd (Jun 29, 2017)

This is a picture of the pomace tube remaining after hard-pressing must from 300 lbs of grapes which filled a Speidel 90-liter bladder press.

Basket has been removed, mesh has been removed, and the pomace tube is cleaned by breaking it up by hand (pic and cleaning methodology courtesy of my wine-making buddy ).

That tube of pomace is no more than 1" thick, and since the O.D. of the 90-liter basket is 18.5" and the I.D is ~18.25 (and height is 22.5"), a 1" thick tube of pomace corresponds to no more than 20 liters or 22.2% of the full 90-liter basket volume.

That's a compression factor of 4.5x from wet, unpressed pomace to dry, hard-pressed pomace, and that means a few things:

If the original 90-liter load took must of 300 lbs of grapes which hard-pressed down to a volume of 20 liters, a second sequential load of ~70-liters corresponding to must from ~230 lbs of grapes should be possible after hard press (so over 500 lbs should fit easily into a 90-liter bladder press with 2 sequential loads and might barely fit into an 80-liter bladder press).

That second 70-liter load should compress down by 4.5x after hard press to an incremental volume of ~15.5 liters or ~35.5 liters total, corresponding to a pomace tube which is just over 2" thick, still leaving room for as much as 180 lbs of grapes in a 3rd load of 54.5 liters.

That third 54.5-liter load should compress down to an incremental 12.1 liters for ~47.6 liters of dry pomace total, corresponding to a tube which is less than 2.9" thick, still far outside the diameter of the bladder in relaxed position (and allowing an easy fourth sequential loading of as much as 42.4 liters, corresponding to must from another 140 lbs of grapes).

Now after loading must from a total of 850 lbs of grapes, the pomace tube is approaching 4.2" thick and is reaching the point where it is meeting the bladder in relaxed position and no more wet pomace can easily be loaded.

But if I was using one of these 90-liter Speidel fixed-leg bladder presses single-handedly, I think I'd load must from as many as 800 or 850 lbs of grapes into it sequentially and only clean (painfully) by hand once.

With a tilting 80-liter bladder press, the work of emptying the bladder and emptying the press single-handedly is really not that much more work than just emptying the bladder, so there's no real benefit to sequential load (and some potential cost in terms of mote total bladder-emptying cycles).

But if you can easily get you full volume of must loaded into your press using sequential with only light pressure (meaning ~0.25 bar or less), that wpuld mean only a single batch of hard press, which probably saves time and certainly makes incremental press lots easier to manage...

On an 80-liter press, three sequential loads would correspind to about:

267 lbs first load
204 lbs second load
160 lbs third load

so must from grapes of a quarter ton should fit easily in 3 sequential hard-press loads but unclear without testing whether the same would be true with only light-press loads (compression factor will be less).


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## fafrd (Jun 29, 2017)

fafrd said:


> This is a picture of the pomace tube remaining after hard-pressing must from 300 lbs of grapes which filled a Speidel 90-liter bladder press.
> 
> Basket has been removed, mesh has been removed, and the pomace tube is cleaned by breaking it up by hand (pic and cleaning methodology courtesy of my wine-making buddy ).
> 
> ...



For whatever reason, 'the system' is not allowing me to add the pic to my original post - here it is:


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## Johny99 (Jun 29, 2017)

fafrd said:


> From your earlier posts, sounds like you pretty easily and quickly empty your tilting 80-liter bladder press solo (using the mesh bag ).
> 
> With a helper or two (with strong backs ), sounds like an 80 or 90 liter bladder press can be emptied by lifting the basket off of the bladder, but the availability of those helpers is a big constraint that I want to avoid. And from all reports, having to empty an 80 or 90 liter bladder press by hand leaving the basket in place is pretty painful...
> 
> What maximum pressure do you typically press to and have you ever done any experimenting with press lots (keeping the juices from different pressures seperate, at least until they've been tasted)?



I think two people, tall would help could easily lift the basket. I'm an even 6 ft and it is a "curl" to loft it above the bladder. Doable though. However, I've only done it with the basket, not with pomace. It looks like in your picture the pomace stays put, which I would expect, it does when I breaker open the basket on my basket press. I suppose it is a little messier to remove the cake once the basket is lifted, but shouldn't be too bad. I'm glad I got the tilt but, with the 80l I think it would be ok without. I'd think different with 120l, that's a lot of cake to pick off the crushpad as it falls apart

I haven't done any separate fermentations. I just tasted the wine as it came off. Unfortunately I didn't record any numbers but I only let it go till the relief once with Cab Sauv and decided that was too much.


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## fafrd (Jun 29, 2017)

Johny99 said:


> I think two people, tall would help could easily lift the basket. I'm an even 6 ft and it is a "curl" to loft it above the bladder. Doable though. However, I've only done it with the basket, not with pomace. *It looks like in your picture the pomace stays put, which I would expect, it does when I breaker open the basket on my basket press. *I suppose it is a little messier to remove the cake once the basket is lifted, but shouldn't be too bad. I'm glad I got the tilt but, with the 80l I think it would be ok without. I'd think different with 120l, that's a lot of cake to pick off the crushpad as it falls apart



Just be clear, that pic was snapped after the mesh bag was removed. I'm not sure if the mesh comes off with the basket or stays with the pomace tube when the basket is lifted off, and gets peeled off in a second step, but use of a mesh bag is apparently critical to leaving the basket in an easy-to-clean condition. 



> I haven't done any separate fermentations. I just tasted the wine as it came off. Unfortunately I didn't record any numbers but *I only let it go till the relief once with Cab Sauv and decided that was too much.*



And 'relief' is what? 2.5 bar? 3 bar?

That Ridge winery article I linked to earlier says they generally keep everything up to 1 bar and usually keep most of what they press up to 2 bar, which is as high as they like to go...


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## Johny99 (Jun 29, 2017)

I believe the relief is set at 2.5 bar.


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## balatonwine (Jun 30, 2017)

fafrd said:


> The interesting thing about this analysis is that only 15% or 300 lbs / ton is pure 'pomace'



FWIIW, the FAO document gives nice ranges for most values, but only uses the "about" symbol for 15% (~15%), without a range. A range there too would have been very much more useful. 

Meanwhile, the other place they use the "about" symbol was "vine prunings ~5 tonnes/ha/year" (1 tonne is 1 metric ton). Meanwhile, the U. Idaho gives a range of 0.4 to 2.8 tons per acre (they state the reason for the range). 1 U.S. ton per acre = 2.24 metric tons per hectare. So ~5 tonnes/ha/year is 2.23 tons per acre per year, which is nearing the upper value of the U. Idaho value. So maybe ~15% is also an upper value of a wider range as well.

So, in short, I would not hang my hat on ~15% as a super solid number to do calculations or comparisons. Rather, just another author to contact to get the actual, unambiguous values.


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## balatonwine (Jun 30, 2017)

fafrd said:


> (pic and cleaning methodology courtesy of my wine-making buddy ).



That is quite a.... bit.... of pomace on the floor. :< And I expect it would increase getting that pomace tube knocked down and carried away. 

If it were me, I would get the press with tilt if sequential loading is the plan. Not worth the cleanup hassle to do otherwise.


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## fafrd (Jun 30, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> That is quite a.... bit.... of pomace on the floor. :< And I expect it would increase getting that pomace tube knocked down and carried away.
> 
> If it were me, I would get the press with tilt if sequential loading is the plan. Not worth the cleanup hassle to do otherwise.



Yeah, if you compare the two pics, the pomace 'roof' in place when the top was removed caved in when the basket and/or mesh bag was removed. Breaking up the pomace tube by hand must make a much bigger mess than that.

You don't need to convince me a tilting press would be easier than emptying a fixed-leg press in this way - these pics are an example of the pomace tube from 300 lbs of grapes in a 90-liter bladder press which my buddy says he can only empty in this manual way if he is pressing solo (too heavy to lift off of the bladder all by himself).

My only point was, if you are going to go with solo-pressing in an 80 or 90-liter fixed-leg bladder press, only having to painfully empty it once by using sequential loading strikes me as a lot easier...


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## fafrd (Jun 30, 2017)

balatonwine said:


> FWIIW, the FAO document gives nice ranges for most values, but only uses the "about" symbol for 15% (~15%), without a range. A range there too would have been very much more useful.
> 
> Meanwhile, the other place they use the "about" symbol was "vine prunings ~5 tonnes/ha/year" (1 tonne is 1 metric ton). Meanwhile, the U. Idaho gives a range of 0.4 to 2.8 tons per acre (they state the reason for the range). 1 U.S. ton per acre = 2.24 metric tons per hectare. So ~5 tonnes/ha/year is 2.23 tons per acre per year, which is nearing the upper value of the U. Idaho value. So maybe ~15% is also an upper value of a wider range as well.
> 
> So, in short, I would not hang my hat on ~15% as a super solid number to do calculations or comparisons. Rather, just another author to contact to get the actual, unambiguous values.



And then there is this: https://morewinemaking.com/articles/Choosing_a_press

"Keep in mind that when you're pressing must it will be between 30% and 35% solids. As you fill the press most of the liquid will flow right through and out referred to as free run wine/juice. So the volume of the press is going to correspond to the volume of solids that need to be pressed. For example, if you have 100 gal of fermented must to press, that only corresponds to about 35 gal worth of solids. To press 35 gal of solids through the 40L bladder press (10.6 gal) you would need to run about 3 press cycles in order to get the job done."

I'm not seeing how that math works out.

930 lbs of grapes results in ~100 gallons of must (using the '10.75x rule' ).

If you've got 35 gallons of wet pomace you are going to press in 3 runs, that means getting 11.7 gallons loaded per run. How exactly are you going to fit 11.7 gallons of unpressed must solids into a 10.6 gallon (40-liter) basket? Unless you are going to make use of sequential loading, of course .

Interestingly, if you leave out the 4.5% of seeds corresponding to 42 lbs / ~5.0 gallons, that 35 gallons of must solids may be as little as 30 gallons of wet pomace, in which case it would fit into a 40-liter bladder press on 3 press runs...

Morewine's guide would suggest pressing must from a half-ton of grapes through an 80-liter bladder press in two press runs should be a no-brainer, but the 35% they describe is about half of what I have heard from others and have experienced myslef.

I could not fit the pomace from 500 lbs of fermented red grapes into a #50 (34 gallon) basket press without a small amount of sequential loading.

Even if I wave away the overflow, that corresponds to 34 gallons of unpressed must solids from 500 lbs or 54 gallons of fermented must, meaning 63%...

And my buddy filled a 90-liter (23.8 gallon) Speidel with unpressed must solids from 300 lbs of grapes which should have resulted in about 32.3 gallons of fermented must, meaning 74%... Even knocking off 10% of that basket volume to account for the bladder and spindle results in 66% wet must solids.

So it seems as though Morewines guide stating 35% is off by close to a factor of two, either because they pre-press in some way or they have a much more effective way of seperating/draining the free run from the skins before loading the press.

No way I'd want to press 100 gallons of fermented must through a 40-liter (10.6 gallon) bladder press...


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## montanarick (Oct 9, 2019)

Anyone familiar with the EJWOX Bladder press sold thru amazon https://www.amazon.com/EJWOX-Gallon-Hydropress-Making-Honeycomb/dp/B07787J8R2


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## bluecrab (Oct 9, 2019)

montanarick said:


> Anyone familiar with the EJWOX Bladder press sold thru amazon https://www.amazon.com/EJWOX-Gallon-Hydropress-Making-Honeycomb/dp/B07787J8R2



I have the 5.3 gallon EJWOX bladder press. I am happy with it. It holds 3 lugs at a time. Pressing at 2 bar, I get an average of 2.8 gallons of pressed wine per lug.


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## montanarick (Oct 9, 2019)

bluecrab said:


> I have the 5.3 gallon EJWOX bladder press. I am happy with it. It holds 3 lugs at a time. Pressing at 2 bar, I get an average of 2.8 gallons of pressed wine per lug.


thanks for the input


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## bluecrab (Oct 10, 2019)

bluecrab said:


> I have the 5.3 gallon EJWOX bladder press. I am happy with it. It holds 3 lugs at a time. Pressing at 2 bar, I get an average of 2.8 gallons of pressed wine per lug.



Just to be clear, it holds 3 lugs post-ferment. I only make reds. I didn’t mean to imply it would hold three lugs of white grapes pre-ferment.


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