# Port - Kit conversion to Port



## hawkwing (Feb 20, 2022)

I have made a port kit in the past. It was from WineKits and was a fortified version. I've downloaded the instructions for a few kinds and most now it seems more popular to add more sugar or concentrate to get higher alcohol than to fortify. Regardless Port kits are expensive and only half size. I could literally make 2-3 times as much for the same price by converting a kit. Only trouble is getting similar results. I've never let that stop me before and I enjoy such a challenge.

There is this old thread I found but I didn't get the impression they were completely satisfied with the results. I'm hoping to learn and improve.
Making a Port style wine from a Standard Wine Kit

For a donor kit I've been looking at the Costco line of Argentina Ridge Merlot. It's a 60 bottle kit or two 7 L concentrates. I will check my local stores at come point. My favorite store is run by an older gentleman who doesn't have a website. He's legit from the old countries so he might have something to say about this idea. 

I want to start with a wine that is similar in body and flavor if possible. I was going to choose Merlot because it is recommended as a best substitute for port in cooking in a Google search. It also has medium tannin levels similar to a port. I'm looking to start with a ruby port. Perhaps try to make a tawny later on.

I'll have to do some calculations to figure out how much concentrate to save for back sweetening and use less water to get a similar SG to other port kits. I am thinking of fortifying rather than adding more sugars to ferment higher alcohol. Part of the reason for this is I think it will make for a cleaner product with less impurities and thus less hangover effect. In the past I have used brandy to fortify however, I might consider using Everclear. This is for two reasons, one less dilution and two cheaper.

I may have to add oak chips etc. depending what comes in the kit I get.

Does anyone have any thoughts\pointers\things to avoid on my plan or my choice of Merlot for a base wine?

Thank you!


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## sour_grapes (Feb 20, 2022)

As you seem to know, they make true ports (i.e., in Porto or Oporto), by adding the fortifying alcohol during an active fermentation, so that the increased ABV stops the fermentation and leaves the desired amount of residual sugar (and the desired ABV). I worked out the math for that (quoted below) here: Whole grape port

I also wrote up a spreadsheet that will make this calculation for you:



sour_grapes said:


> Well, I put this into an Excel sheet, which you are welcome to (if I can figure out how to attach it). There are two sheets: one you input the sugar in g/l, the other you input the SG of the must instead. In both sheets, you input parameters in the yellow boxes, and the answers come out in the blue boxes.
> 
> View attachment 14828


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## hawkwing (Feb 20, 2022)

sour_grapes said:


> As you seem to know, they make true ports (i.e., in Porto or Oporto), by adding the fortifying alcohol during an active fermentation, so that the increased ABV stops the fermentation and leaves the desired amount of residual sugar (and the desired ABV). I worked out the math for that (quoted below) here: Whole grape port
> 
> I also wrote up a spreadsheet that will make this calculation for you:


How easy is it to overshoot the fortification point? I’ve always back sweetened however, I’ve read that it tastes different.


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## hawkwing (Feb 20, 2022)

If I was to go with the Costco kit apparently using 1.5 bags to make 30 bottles is much better according to a review on Amazon. So I could factor that into the calculations when making the port.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 22, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> How easy is it to overshoot the fortification point? I’ve always back sweetened however, I’ve read that it tastes different.


Fermentation may not stop immediately, so hitting the desired point may be difficult. Keep in mind that commercial wineries may have hundreds or thousands of barrels, so they can blend to get the desired ABV.



hawkwing said:


> If I was to go with the Costco kit apparently using 1.5 bags to make 30 bottles is much better according to a review on Amazon. So I could factor that into the calculations when making the port.


Consider that the kit you mentioned is balanced for reconstitution to 46 liters. Adding 50% more concentrate will correspondingly increase the acid that much.

The final wine will have high ABV and RS, which may balance the acid. Or it may not, as increasing the acid by 50% may be too much. I would hesitate to use that much concentrate, but if you are comfortable with that risk? Try it. You can freeze the remaining half-bag and if the acid is way too high, ferment the last half-bag and blend it in.

Be careful of winemaking advice from Amazon reviews. While you don't know me, either, there are dozens of folks on WMT who will post an opposing opinion if they disagree with me -- which is good. We spot-check each other and the final advice is better.


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## hawkwing (Feb 22, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Fermentation may not stop immediately, so hitting the desired point may be difficult. Keep in mind that commercial wineries may have hundreds or thousands of barrels, so they can blend to get the desired ABV.
> 
> 
> Consider that the kit you mentioned is balanced for reconstitution to 46 liters. Adding 50% more concentrate will correspondingly increase the acid that much.
> ...


The 1.5 times will probably not matter as I’ll dilute to whatever SG a port should start at. Then I would adjust the pH whichever way it needed to go. I know it might not turn out exactly right but I’m hoping it’ll be good. So far I’ve been lucky in my experimentation.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 22, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> The 1.5 times will probably not matter as I’ll dilute to whatever SG a port should start at. Then I would adjust the pH whichever way it needed to go. I know it might not turn out exactly right but I’m hoping it’ll be good. So far I’ve been lucky in my experimentation.


You have confused me. I thought you were using 1.5 bags (enough for 45 bottles) to make 30. If you dilute it down to a lower SG, what is the point in using the extra concentrate? Or am I completely misunderstanding you? [if so, it won't be the first time!  ]

What SG is the kit supposed to be when reconstituted? What SG is your target?


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## hawkwing (Feb 22, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> You have confused me. I thought you were using 1.5 bags (enough for 45 bottles) to make 30. If you dilute it down to a lower SG, what is the point in using the extra concentrate? Or am I completely misunderstanding you? [if so, it won't be the first time!  ]
> 
> What SG is the kit supposed to be when reconstituted? What SG is your target?


Wouldn’t be the first time I’ve confused someone either. 

What I meant was someone on Amazon suggested if making the kit from
Costco as regular to make a merlot or whatever style it ends up better if you use 1.5 bags to make 23L not 2 bags for 46L. In that case I don’t know what the SG should be for the regular wine as I haven’t purchased a kit yet. But whatever range say a Merlot should be.

For making the port however, the SG range I have seen in kit instructions varies from 1.115 to 1.133. I would likely target in there somewhere but those instructions plan for chapitalization which is a new term to me and I believe that’s adding sugar part way through. So I will have to determine what range is best if in planning to fortify over chapitalization.

Looks like bottling is in the 1.010-1.020 range. I’d probably aim high as I like the sweet. I should buy another bottle of port and measure the SG.


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## Ohio Bob (Feb 22, 2022)

For my port kits as well as my wild blackberry port, the protocol is to make a wine that would be 13-ish % alcohol. Either stop the fermentation early to retain some sweetness, or ferment dry and back sweeten. Then fortify to 20-ish % alcohol. I’ve not seen any kits that advise fermenting to 20%.


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## hawkwing (Feb 22, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> For my port kits as well as my wild blackberry port, the protocol is to make a wine that would be 13-ish % alcohol. Either stop the fermentation early to retain some sweetness, or ferment dry and back sweeten. Then fortify to 20-ish % alcohol. I’ve not seen any kits that advise fermenting to 20%.


I’ve made a kit from WineKitz back when they had their own branded kits. Now I think they sell Wineexpert. And it’s called apres or desert wine or both. I can’t find the instructions for that kit though. I do recall fermenting dry then adding brandy and another pack of juice to it as per the instructions.

Now the WineExpert instructions have a dextrose pack to add part way through the fermentation for chaptalization and I don’t see any mention of fortification. Not sure if I’m going to attempt to try and stop the fermentation or back sweeten yet. I’m tempted to try and stop the fermentation as I’ve read comments that say it tastes better.


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## Ohio Bob (Feb 22, 2022)

Perhaps they don’t say how to fortify since it involves fortifying spirits they don’t/can’t control. Should they recommend vodka, brandy, Everclear? Too many variables that also involve personal taste.


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## hawkwing (Feb 22, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> Perhaps they don’t say how to fortify since it involves fortifying spirits they don’t/can’t control. Should they recommend vodka, brandy, Everclear? Too many variables that also involve personal taste.


I suppose brandy would be more traditional choice but I suspect commercially it would be raw white brandy not aged in oak. I’m probably going to use Everclear since it’ll be cheaper and less dilution. I think our Everclear is 95%.


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## ratflinger (Feb 23, 2022)

I've successfully made 'port'. I'll use a something like a tempranillo or zinfandel, ferment it dry, and let it go through my standard racking & bulk aging process. So the port base will be about 6 months old, minimum. Then I'll split it into however much port I want to bottle, usually 3gal for my wife and 3 for my daughter. I'll use simple syrup and sweeten to taste, add any flavorings I wish to use, then hit it with 190* Everclear, and pump the ABV to up around 20. Too much Everclear and the port will always taste 'hot'. Brandy is the preferred choice for fortifying, but in France they make a 150* proof brandy just for this purpose. The problem with anything lower, ABV wise, is you tend to thin the wine base too much.

You'll need to carboy age this for a bit, while testing for sweetness and flavor. I like it just a little too sweet & a little too flavorful going into the bottle. After a year in the bottle the flavors and sweetness blend and moderate a little.

If you totally miss then all is not lost. I missed a batch, rather badly, so I dumped the bottles back in the carboy and added some fresh wine and redid the whole batch.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 23, 2022)

@hawkwing, if you start with a very high SG, the environment may be too rich and the yeast may not be able to survive. Yes, there can be too much sugar. I don't recommend starting higher than 1.115 to get a good ferment going.

The methods @Ohio Bob and @ratflinger outlined are good ones. It's a pretty much guaranteed to ferment out as expected. The only drawback is the lower the ABV from fermentation, the more spirits are required to reach the fortified ABV.

You have 3 choices to up the initial ABV: chaptalization, step feeding, or both.

With chaptalization, reconstitute a kit and bump the OG to 1.100 - 1.115 with sugar. Let it ferment dry and age as @ratflinger said. From my POV, this is a better method, as you know the ABV and can calculate more accurately how much Everclear to add.
With step feeding, each time the wine gets down to 1.000 - 1.010, add enough sugar to bump the SG by 0.010. Repeat until the yeast gives up the ghost. For this it's essential to keep good records, else you'll have no idea what the final ABV is.
For both? Start with a high OG and step feed. Ditto on issues.
Me? I'd chaptalize, both for ease of record keeping and calculations, and because it's a straightforward process.

You can try adding Everclear at 1.020 to try to stop the ferment. If it doesn't stop quickly enough, add sugar to taste. I don't use a hydrometer to decide now much to backsweeten a wine -- I go strictly by taste, and measure SG when done. For one in the range you mentioned (1.020) you may need to add a bit of tartaric, else the wine will taste flabby.

@Ohio Bob & @ratflinger, do you adjust acid?

In my state, Everclear caps at 150 proof.


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## ratflinger (Feb 23, 2022)

No, but probably should look into it. Although everyone has been happy with the effort, except for that one batch and it was way too hot.


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## SLM (Feb 23, 2022)

I've been experimenting with port. There is advantage in splitting batches and trying different spirits to see what you like. My favorite flavor so far is Christian Brothers brandy. I bulk age a minimum 6 months, gone as high as 22% abv and it still tastes smooth. I don't adjust acid but I'm using wild blackberries. My next experiment is to age some in oak.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 23, 2022)

I've played with port style; black raspberry/chocolate, Concord from juice, banana. The first attempts (raspberry and Concord) were fermented dry then back sweeten and then fortified with brandy. The banana was the first I ever tried stopping fermentation with spirits to retain residual sugar. I made the decision on the banana in mid primary so my ABV was not as high as I would have liked.

I fortified the banana with Malibu Rum (coconut) and Everclear. The rum is a lower ABV so I supplemented the fortification with Everclear 151. I may try another batch with both the Malibu and a higher ABV rum. Bananas and rum are a great combination and I have been underwhelmed with regular banana wine.

More experiments to come. Maybe that fig batch that is trying to be vinegar. 

I have oaked the raspberry and Concord batches. That adds a nice touch.


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## Malach58 (Feb 23, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> @hawkwing, if you start with a very high SG, the environment may be too rich and the yeast may not be able to survive. Yes, there can be too much sugar. I don't recommend starting higher than 1.115 to get a good ferment going.
> 
> The methods @Ohio Bob and @ratflinger outlined are good ones. It's a pretty much guaranteed to ferment out as expected. The only drawback is the lower the ABV from fermentation, the more spirits are required to reach the fortified ABV.
> 
> ...


I just made a Red Zin old vine kit and chapitalized 3 times to attain a 17% abv, and stopped at 1.025. I fed a little goferm as I did this. Also, I added banana chips for a smooth mouthfeel. 
I removed 1.5 gallons for my wife, and then added1.75 liters of brandy to bring it to 19ish%. It is a great tasting port so far.


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## Ohio Bob (Feb 23, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> @hawkwing, if you start with a very high SG, the environment may be too rich and the yeast may not be able to survive. Yes, there can be too much sugar. I don't recommend starting higher than 1.115 to get a good ferment going.
> 
> The methods @Ohio Bob and @ratflinger outlined are good ones. It's a pretty much guaranteed to ferment out as expected. The only drawback is the lower the ABV from fermentation, the more spirits are required to reach the fortified ABV.
> 
> ...


I do not adjust acid, although I should be measuring it. I back sweeten my wild blackberry with Hershey’s chocolate powder. Just enough to take the tart off and not be a recognizable chocolate flavor. I’ll also blend in wine especially to top off the carboy but also at bottling. I use Everclear 190. Not available in Ohio, had to get 150 I think in West Virginia, my neighbor gets me 190 when he makes a few trips down to Texas.

Funny story, my local grocery store suddenly had 190 on the shelf of the liquor section, so I grabbed a few bottles. Went back months later and there were none. Seems they are not legally allowed to sell it but got it from their distributor by accident! Wished I would have grabbed everything I could, had I known.


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## hawkwing (Feb 23, 2022)

ratflinger said:


> I've successfully made 'port'. I'll use a something like a tempranillo or zinfandel, ferment it dry, and let it go through my standard racking & bulk aging process. So the port base will be about 6 months old, minimum. Then I'll split it into however much port I want to bottle, usually 3gal for my wife and 3 for my daughter. I'll use simple syrup and sweeten to taste, add any flavorings I wish to use, then hit it with 190* Everclear, and pump the ABV to up around 20. Too much Everclear and the port will always taste 'hot'. Brandy is the preferred choice for fortifying, but in France they make a 150* proof brandy just for this purpose. The problem with anything lower, ABV wise, is you tend to thin the wine base too much.
> 
> You'll need to carboy age this for a bit, while testing for sweetness and flavor. I like it just a little too sweet & a little too flavorful going into the bottle. After a year in the bottle the flavors and sweetness blend and moderate a little.
> 
> If you totally miss then all is not lost. I missed a batch, rather badly, so I dumped the bottles back in the carboy and added some fresh wine and redid the whole batch.



Looks like those wines are similar to the Merlot I was considering. So it will depend on local availability. 

I have been bulk aging in carboys for a while. Given the size I may have to use the larger 54L Demi Jon. But would be harder to move. 

It’s good that it could be salvaged and mixed to save if necessary. Thanks for the idea.


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## hawkwing (Feb 23, 2022)

VinesnBines said:


> I've played with port style; black raspberry/chocolate, Concord from juice, banana. The first attempts (raspberry and Concord) were fermented dry then back sweeten and then fortified with brandy. The banana was the first I ever tried stopping fermentation with spirits to retain residual sugar. I made the decision on the banana in mid primary so my ABV was not as high as I would have liked.
> 
> I fortified the banana with Malibu Rum (coconut) and Everclear. The rum is a lower ABV so I supplemented the fortification with Everclear 151. I may try another batch with both the Malibu and a higher ABV rum. Bananas and rum are a great combination and I have been underwhelmed with regular banana wine.
> 
> ...





Malach58 said:


> I just made a Red Zin old vine kit and chapitalized 3 times to attain a 17% abv, and stopped at 1.025. I fed a little goferm as I did this. Also, I added banana chips for a smooth mouthfeel.
> I removed 1.5 gallons for my wife, and then added1.75 liters of brandy to bring it to 19ish%. It is a great tasting port so far.


For you guys who’ve made a zif style how close is it to a commercial ruby port?


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## hawkwing (Feb 23, 2022)

Has anyone trying aeration to make a tawny port?


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## winemaker81 (Feb 23, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Given the size I may have to use the larger 54L Demi Jon. But would be harder to move.


Other than sliding it on a counter, DO NOT move a 54 liter demijohn. They are slippery -- my son and I picked one up last year, moving it onto the counter from the floor -- we nearly dropped it. We agreed that it will NEVER be moved again while full. I purchased a pump and fill it on the counter.

Mine came with a plastic basket -- it's ok to pick it up using the basket handles while empty, but I don't trust it while full.


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## Malach58 (Feb 24, 2022)

Red Zin gets close but I prefer the Tempranillo more. I’ve got two bottles left of Temp based that are 12 years old. At 10 years old they were art. It was a subtle addition and marriage of banana powder, Hershey dark Cocoa powder, and medium toast oak cubes. And of course, time.


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## Noontime (Feb 24, 2022)

Like others, I've fooled around making port style wines. My best was a mocha port, made from a higher end zinfandel kit. I step fed it to reach higher alcohol (somewhere around 18%), and the yeast died out leaving some residual sugar. Then added everclear to bring it up to about 20%. Added cocoa in bulk aging and back sweetened just a tad. It was little rough for a couple of years but really smoothed out and came together years 2 through 5 (we don't store our wines properly and we lived in S. Florida, so most of our wines only lasted 2 to 5 years... although this one had a gradual decline through year 8 when we drank and enjoyed the last one). I think the small amount of everclear added a nice fortified flavor without being HOT, and also agree with others that commercial brandy is not optimal for fortifying port (it works, just not the same as what's done traditionally for port).
EDIT: Malach58 just reminded me I did add medium toast oak cubes as well, in both fermentation and bulk.


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## hawkwing (Feb 24, 2022)

Did any of you filter your port?

Also what yeast did you use? I’m wondering if I should use 212 or lower alcohol toleranceyeats for fortification so it doesn’t second ferment. Probably will have to add potassium sorbate if memory serves me right.

I will probably start with a basic kit and if it turns out ok I may step up to a more premium kit. I will be checking on options hopefully next week.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 24, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’m wondering if I should use 212 or lower alcohol toleranceyeats for fortification so it doesn’t second ferment. Probably will have to add potassium sorbate if memory serves me right.


If you fortify the wine above 18% ABV, don't worry about refermentation.


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## Ohio Bob (Feb 24, 2022)

I agree with @hawkwing, you do not need to worry about refermentation if you fortify past 18%.

That being said, there’s no need for sorbate either, use it if it makes you feel safer. My wild blackberry port gets EC1118, a neutral fermenting yeast. 212 is a good call too. I suspect yeast may affect the flavor less, since you will(?) be back sweetening. I also do not filter, just bulk aging enough to get it to clear. You can if you want though.


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## ratflinger (Feb 24, 2022)

I filter all my wines. 3 mo from ferment start through the glass carboys, then filter into the Better Bottles for the bulk aging. Do you have to - no, but I like the polish it puts on the wine. I use 1 micron.


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## Malach58 (Feb 25, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Did any of you filter your port?
> 
> Also what yeast did you use? I’m wondering if I should use 212 or lower alcohol toleranceyeats for fortification so it doesn’t second ferment. Probably will have to add potassium sorbate if memory serves me right.
> 
> I will probably start with a basic kit and if it turns out ok I may step up to a more premium kit. I will be checking on options hopefully next week.


I don’t filter (even though I have a mini-jet) , I rack every 3 mos for a year. 
RC212 is my goto for reds


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## winemaker81 (Feb 25, 2022)

Malach58 said:


> I don’t filter (even though I have a mini-jet) , I rack every 3 mos for a year.


Are you getting enough sediment that racking is necessary every 3 months?

I've been doing sur lie the last couple of years, and bâttonage for the 2020 reds. I'd like to divide a batch in half -- do sur lie and bâttonage for one, and rack the other every 3 months if there is more than a dusting of fine lees. I'm interested in seeing the real differences between the batches.


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## Malach58 (Feb 25, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Are you getting enough sediment that racking is necessary every 3 months?
> 
> I've been doing sur lie the last couple of years, and bâttonage for the 2020 reds. I'd like to divide a batch in half -- do sur lie and bâttonage for one, and rack the other every 3 months if there is more than a dusting of fine lees. I'm interested in seeing the real differences between the batches.


By the third rack there will be only a fine dusting to contend with, or just carefully bottle. I usually bottle the first two and last two with screw caps for samplers. There are times when the lees from the addition of dark cocoa powder or elderberries will give me fits.


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## Malach58 (Feb 26, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Are you getting enough sediment that racking is necessary every 3 months?
> 
> I've been doing sur lie the last couple of years, and bâttonage for the 2020 reds. I'd like to divide a batch in half -- do sur lie and bâttonage for one, and rack the other every 3 months if there is more than a dusting of fine lees. I'm interested in seeing the real differences between the batches.


I’ve never tried sur lie aging before, other than twice in the past I’ve not racked the secondary for a couple months, but you’ve got me curious. I’ll be starting another Temp based port, and may split it, racking one, sur lie and battonage for the other.
I think too I’ll order a Chardonnay and try it completely Sur Lie. 
My current Chardonnay is a FWK, and it’s dark like a wildflower Mead. Thanks for the prod


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## hawkwing (Feb 26, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Are you getting enough sediment that racking is necessary every 3 months?
> 
> I've been doing sur lie the last couple of years, and bâttonage for the 2020 reds. I'd like to divide a batch in half -- do sur lie and bâttonage for one, and rack the other every 3 months if there is more than a dusting of fine lees. I'm interested in seeing the real differences between the batches.


Have you noticed any difference using this method?


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## hawkwing (Feb 26, 2022)

I think I'm going to go with a Cabernet Sauvignon kit. Do you think a cheap kit would be ok with the extra concentration or will I be wishing I got a higher quality kit? The 46L from Costco with less water might be enough unless I shell out for a premium kit.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 26, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Have you noticed any difference using this method?


What I've noticed so far is less racking.  

I say this tongue-in-cheek, but it's literally true. In the past I racked every 3 months, which unnecessarily exposes the wine to air, and causes loss of volume as racking has some wastage. Sur lie is an easy technique -- ignore the wine. Bâttonage is easy in the barrel, since at topup time the volume is reduced so I can stir gently with a drill-mounted stirring rod, then top up. This also distributes the oak flavor from the oak cubes (barrels are neutral so I add cubes), making the taste testing more accurate.

In the carboy? I'd withdraw a large sample using a thief, stir the wine, and then replace the sample.

I've been happy with the wines I've made, but without something to compare against, I can't say for sure what difference it's made. That's why I would like to do a test. I've considering purchasing another FWK Tavola for a quicker drinker (no skin packs, minimal oak), and moving that into a pair of 3 gallon carboys will let me do the test.



hawkwing said:


> I think I'm going to go with a Cabernet Sauvignon kit. Do you think a cheap kit would be ok with the extra concentration or will I be wishing I got a higher quality kit? The 46L from Costco with less water might be enough unless I shell out for a premium kit.


It appears Costco sells kits only Canada -- I searched and it came up Costco.ca, and kits don't appear for my local (NC) locations. I don't know anything about the quality of the Costco kits, so I can't comment.

I'm not in favor of shorting water in kits. I've had a few kits in recent years where the acid was out of balance after I shorted the water -- these were WE or RJS kits. Given the results I got with the new WE formulation, I'd go with a WE kit, and add raisins, currents, or something similar. Maybe a sliced banana or 2 for body. Add to the kit, not take away.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> What I've noticed so far is less racking.
> 
> I say this tongue-in-cheek, but it's literally true. In the past I racked every 3 months, which unnecessarily exposes the wine to air, and causes loss of volume as racking has some wastage. Sur lie is an easy technique -- ignore the wine. Bâttonage is easy in the barrel, since at topup time the volume is reduced so I can stir gently with a drill-mounted stirring rod, then top up. This also distributes the oak flavor from the oak cubes (barrels are neutral so I add cubes), making the taste testing more accurate.
> 
> ...


I've read that the Costco and the WE kits in the non premium variety are kind of thin. I've seen many recommendations to add less water. I've even seen someone write that the SG was lower making 9% alcohol not the 12.5 on the included labels. That was probably in the Costco.ca reviews. Do raisins, currents or banana add noticeable flavors?

Net week I'm going to go and see what my favorite local store offers and what he recommends.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I've read that the Costco and the WE kits in the non premium variety are kind of thin. I've seen many recommendations to add less water. I've even seen someone write that the SG was lower making 9% alcohol not the 12.5 on the included labels. That was probably in the Costco.ca reviews. Do raisins, currents or banana add noticeable flavors?


Ya gotta be cautious of reviews, as you're trusting that the reviewer knows what they are doing. With winemaking, there is a lot of "not" on the internet.

I've been making kits since 1996. I wish I hadn't tossed them out some years back -- I had the original packaging of WineArt kits -- I'm guessing there was a < 1 gallon of concentrate to make 23 liters. Those early kits were poster children for "ain't gonna get the SG the instructions say", and it became common to short the water to get a good SG.

Fast forward to 2022. The landscape of kits changed dramatically, even as far back as 2010, and much more in the last 3 years. The reputable vendors I'm familiar with (WE, RJS) reformulated their concentration process, and in my limited experience (2 WE Reserve kits), WE's new product kicks the old product's butt, and it has a denser concentrate. You can find the threads from 2 years ago, with a lot of people very unhappy with this change.

Pre-reformulation, I had 2 kits turn out acidic, and I shorted the water in both. IMO, the newer kits are properly balanced for reconstitution to 23 liter, so shorting the water throws the acid balance out of line. My answer is to NOT short the water -- add things that add body to the wine.

Adding raisins, currents, banana, etc. will change the taste of the wine, depending on how much you add. But there is nothing sacred about the original taste of the kit wine. That's simply what the vendor produced. Your goal is to make _your_ wine, so do what you need to do to make a good result.

Note that the above applies to kits from reputable vendors, which (as I said) includes WE, RJS, and now FWK. There are other good vendors, but I haven't used their kits and can't speak about them.

OTOH, if you're making the really low end kits, everything I just said doesn't apply. Shorting the water makes sense, as does adding other "stuff" to bump up the wine.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Ya gotta be cautious of reviews, as you're trusting that the reviewer knows what they are doing. With winemaking, there is a lot of "not" on the internet.
> 
> I've been making kits since 1996. I wish I hadn't tossed them out some years back -- I had the original packaging of WineArt kits -- I'm guessing there was a < 1 gallon of concentrate to make 23 liters. Those early kits were poster children for "ain't gonna get the SG the instructions say", and it became common to short the water to get a good SG.
> 
> ...


I’ve been reading on the forum about adding things to make low end kits better. I’m wondering what adding black grape skins from the grocery store would do (possibly after I juice them and use just the skins). Or adding tannin. Im not sure I can get wine skins locally. I have to check my stores but I don’t recall seeing them before. I want to get a bit of a bump to a better wine without adding a different fruit flavor or raisin flavor. I want to get close to a commercial port. Adding raisins might go well with the tawny port though as it’s supposed to oxidize.

If I reduce the water I would Adjust the pH if necessary. I have to go through the calculations and make sure I got everything straight.

I was looking at the calculator provided for fortification and there will be significant dilution in the end. I will have to add around 5 bottles of 95% or 190 proof Everclear to get 20% if I start at and SG of 1.100 and want to end up with 120g/L of residual sugars. Way more than I was expecting.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Ya gotta be cautious of reviews, as you're trusting that the reviewer knows what they are doing. With winemaking, there is a lot of "not" on the internet.
> 
> I've been making kits since 1996. I wish I hadn't tossed them out some years back -- I had the original packaging of WineArt kits -- I'm guessing there was a < 1 gallon of concentrate to make 23 liters. Those early kits were poster children for "ain't gonna get the SG the instructions say", and it became common to short the water to get a good SG.
> 
> ...


Oh I forgot that yes sometimes reviews are bad reviews. They give a bad review because they don’t know what they are doing and get a bad result that is not the fault of the product in question. Usually I can read through those and figure out if I’m willing to take the risk.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I’m wondering what adding black grape skins from the grocery store would do (possibly after I juice them and use just the skins).


This is out of my experience. I suggest you post in the Tweaking Cheap Kits thread for better help.

My take at this point -- you're better off buying a better kit, bumping the OG up with sugar to 1.110 - 1.115, using EC-1118, and step feeding the wine until the yeast quits. Bulk age at least 6 months, then backsweeten if it needs it, and redo the Everclear calculation.

I'd do a limited experiment -- move most of the wine to a 19 liter carboy, and experiment with the remaining 4 liters. Once you've fortified the wine, it will probably need at least another 6 months aging in the bottle before you know how successful the result is.

This contradicts some of my previous advice, but you're comfortable taking some risks (as per your initial post), so go for it! IME, trying to go cheap on something like this will not produce the results you want.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> This is out of my experience. I suggest you post in the Tweaking Cheap Kits thread for better help.
> 
> My take at this point -- you're better off buying a better kit, bumping the OG up with sugar to 1.110 - 1.115, using EC-1118, and step feeding the wine until the yeast quits. Bulk age at least 6 months, then backsweeten if it needs it, and redo the Everclear calculation.
> 
> ...


I don’t know why for sure, but I want to avoid adding sugar, as I’ve used it before for fruit wines. I want to rely only on natural grape sugars.

Part of the reason I want to use the cheaper kit is that it’s a total of 14L of concentrate for $105CAD. The premium WE kits are $180 CAD for 14L. Seems like a big difference but they do come with skins I believe. I’m not sure if one would be more concentrated or not. I’m potentially already not diluting to the proper levels to change to a port style. So I’m not sure how much different 14L of concentrate for the same style can be other than acidity levels. Since one is supposed to make twice as much.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

I found this article suggesting that black grapes could work. I think I’ve only seen seedless though.

Kit Wine Taste


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## winemaker81 (Feb 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I don’t know why for sure, but I want to avoid adding sugar, as I’ve used it before for fruit wines. I want to rely only on natural grape sugars.


A large part of the world has no problem chaptalizing the must when the brix is low -- it's a very common practice. If you are relying on natural grape sugar in kits, you're not getting it. Kits are designed for very specific brix, and it's highly likely they are adding sugar to hit those targets.

Also consider the cost of 5 bottles of Everclear, plus anything else you add to the wine. How does the total cost compare to a WE premium kit?

Me? I would use a Reserve kit, not Private Reserve, as I suspect the Reserve is good enough for this purpose, especially if it has skin packs. Those will make a tremendous difference in body, something you're unlikely to achieve with a bargain kit.

Regarding acid, if you use 25% more concentrate to make a 23 liter batch, the TA is likely to be 25% higher. I have no clue what the pH will be. 

Keep posting regarding your experiment -- I'm interested in seeing how it turns out.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> A large part of the world has no problem chaptalizing the must when the brix is low -- it's a very common practice. If you are relying on natural grape sugar in kits, you're not getting it. Kits are designed for very specific brix, and it's highly likely they are adding sugar to hit those targets.
> 
> Also consider the cost of 5 bottles of Everclear, plus anything else you add to the wine. How does the total cost compare to a WE premium kit?
> 
> ...


You are probably correct. I could chaptalize to reduce the requirement for expensive spirits. I’m not sure how much this will change the flavor however, pushing the yeast harder. I’ve read that it will create different off flavors.

I could save some of the concentrate for back sweetening and ferment dry so the residual sugars are hopefully more from natural grape sugars.

Regardless of the kit price I will need the Everclear. This I dint think its fair to include in the cost comparison between kits. According to the website the reserve kits don’t mention having grape skins. Maybe I will go for a better kit. This stuff should age well. I’m still researching and planning yet so lots to consider.

I wish I could find an article where the TDS of the different levels of kits was listed.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 27, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I could chaptalize to reduce the requirement for expensive spirits. I’m not sure how much this will change the flavor however, pushing the yeast harder. I’ve read that it will create different off flavors.


Hmmm, I've never heard that. Unless you can find a reference that explains the difference in flavor, I'd be cautious regarding believing it.



hawkwing said:


> According to the website the reserve kits don’t mention having grape skins.


Oops!! You're right! My mistake. Too bad you can get FWK in Canada.


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## hawkwing (Feb 27, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Hmmm, I've never heard that. Unless you can find a reference that explains the difference in flavor, I'd be cautious regarding believing it.
> 
> 
> Oops!! You're right! My mistake. Too bad you can get FWK in Canada.


The off flavors mentioned was more in reference to distilling to spirits.

I had to look up FWK. Interesting and yes just another thing that would be easier if I lived in the US. Honestly I’m not sure why they can’t just remove water from the crushed grapes and leave everything else in the kit. Sell us and ultra ultra premium option. There probably is a way to preserve it without pasteurizing too.

I had another thought that if I do get the 2x7L kit I could make two batches and experiment on one with the grape skins etc to see what the difference is.


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## hawkwing (Mar 1, 2022)

I got some good news today. I went into my local wine store and found out the guy imports wine grapes from California in the fall. Several varieties and the price would work out quite a bit cheaper than a premium kit. 50%-100% cheaper. Basically can make two carboys for not much more than a single kit. Looks like I'd have to preorder in August. I will have to plan for that. Make a whole bunch.


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 1, 2022)

The 2 shops in my area offer CA and Italian juice in the fall, Chilean in the spring. Prod him into looking into it.


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## hawkwing (Mar 1, 2022)

I believe he gets juice in the fall. Not sure about spring. But these are actually grapes.


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## Ohio Bob (Mar 1, 2022)

You can get CA grapes shipped to Saskatoon?? I would think your shop can get juice buckets too. It’s worth asking. My shop does pallets upon pallets of juice buckets but not grapes. My assumption is it’s easier (more profitable?) to ship buckets.


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## hawkwing (Mar 1, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> You can get CA grapes shipped to Saskatoon?? I would think your shop can get juice buckets too. It’s worth asking. My shop does pallets upon pallets of juice buckets but not grapes. My assumption is it’s easier (more profitable?) to ship buckets.


Yes he imports them. Several varieties apparently. I wish I got more information before I left. He does get juice buckets too but apparently they don’t have any skins. I was under the impression that the grapes would be the better way to go.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 1, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I got some good news today. I went into my local wine store and found out the guy imports wine grapes from California in the fall.


You will need to buy or build a press. Welcome to a brand new world!


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## hawkwing (Mar 2, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> You will need to buy or build a press. Welcome to a brand new world!


I've seen used ones come up before. I'll keep watch. I would expect that if this guy retires there would be no one else bringing grapes in. So this could come to an end someday. I'm not sure if anyone else would be interested in doing so.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 2, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I've seen used ones come up before. I'll keep watch.


I purchased a used #40 basket press using Facebook Marketplace. It's not a common item, so checking every other day is necessary. Also, there is at least one thread here regarding building a press.

You might ask the grape coordinator if anyone has a press -- it's a PITA, but if the distance is close, someone might let you use theirs.


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## hawkwing (Mar 2, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> I purchased a used #40 basket press using Facebook Marketplace. It's not a common item, so checking every other day is necessary. Also, there is at least one thread here regarding building a press.
> 
> You might ask the grape coordinator if anyone has a press -- it's a PITA, but if the distance is close, someone might let you use theirs.


I will have to try that and see. I almost bought one as I was making apple cider. It took me 5-6 hours to put 5-6 pails of apples through my juicer to get one and a bit pails that ends up being one pail after the pulp settles. I have one of those Kuvings masticating slow juicer that takes whole apples but it does plug with skins and core bits a little too often. There are some options for sure. I have some time to plan it too. Not sure how much I'll end up making but I have two 54 L demijohns I'd like to fill. I also have a few carboys I could fill. Since I assume I have to age for two or more years it would be nice to get a steady stream going.


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## hawkwing (Mar 2, 2022)

I did a bit of an experiment. I wanted to try some different red wines side by side which I've never really done. I got bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon, Zinfandel, Merlot, and Pinot Noir. The Pinot Noir was my least favorite. I'm not 100% which in my favorite possibly the Cabernet Sauvignon or the Zinfandel but the Merlot was good too. Then I too 100ml of each or just under 1/2 cup and put in 10g sugar or about a heaping desert spoon and a bit more than a teaspoon of 95% Everclear. This made them 20% and about 90g/L of sugar. Then I compared them to a Port. Again Pinot Noir was my least favorite. But they ware a decent approximation. I wasn't too sure which was the best. The Zinfandel and the Cab were very good but so was the Merlot. As I drank more the better they tasted lol. It must've taken time for the flavors to meld.  I'll have to try the Cab with just a little more sugar. It might need slightly more.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 3, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> Not sure how much I'll end up making but I have two 54 L demijohns I'd like to fill.


Do you have a pump? If not, you need one. DO NOT try to lift a 54 liter demijohn when full, and don't trust the plastic basket to not break. Weight is not as much an issue as being able to hang onto it. I have a good pump I purchased from LabelPeelers, which I like.



hawkwing said:


> Since I assume I have to age for two or more years it would be nice to get a steady stream going.


This is not correct. _Some _wines need several years of aging, many do not. Fruit type (including grape varietal), fruit quality, and wine style all affect the aging.



hawkwing said:


> As I drank more the better they tasted lol. It must've taken time for the flavors to meld.


That's an excellent explanation!


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## hawkwing (Mar 3, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> Do you have a pump? If not, you need one. DO NOT try to lift a 54 liter demijohn when full, and don't trust the plastic basket to not break. Weight is not as much an issue as being able to hang onto it. I have a good pump I purchased from LabelPeelers, which I like.
> 
> 
> This is not correct. _Some _wines need several years of aging, many do not. Fruit type (including grape varietal), fruit quality, and wine style all affect the aging.
> ...


I do have a pump. I have a mini jet and a super jet. I don't think I'd try to lift them. I was wondering about that. The 23L/6gal carboys are enough. I can easily handle them but at more than twice the weight I can't see good things happening given the shape and what not.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 4, 2022)

hawkwing said:


> I can easily handle them but at more than twice the weight I can't see good things happening given the shape and what not.


My son and I lifted mine *once*. The weight wasn't that bad for 2 husky guys, but we both nearly lost grip on it. While I can pickup a full 23 liter carboy with no problem (yet anyway, give it a few years), I'm leaning more and more towards, "Ya got a pump, use it!"


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## hawkwing (Mar 4, 2022)

I going to give this a try using the Costco.ca Argentina Ridge Cabernet Sauvignon 60 bottle kit. It's $105 CAD with shipping and taxes. I'd rather experiment on a cheaper kit. Then not so much to lose. But I still think I can get a good product out of it. I will probably pick up some black grapes to add the skins. I will also use less water as many on this forum have suggested making a few bottles less and it's less watered down tasting.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 4, 2022)

Toss in a cup of Zante/Corinth currants and a cup of oak chips. You will like the added body and tannins. If you go with the currants, you might forgo the store grapes and skins. Alternatively you could toss in a couple ounces of dried elderberries. I would only choose one, grapes, currants or elderberries.


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## hawkwing (Mar 4, 2022)

I met an interesting guy today. He's retired and selling off all his stuff. He as a big pump and press but well beyond what I need or want to pay. He had a wine group for years where three guys went together and made 5 barrels/50 cases of grapes worth of wine every year. I got another distributor to get grapes from. It's a food import business. He said that it's better than the other place because they get grapes in late September not the beginning. He had a bad batch of wine due to too many green grapes. Said they had $2000 that wasn't drinkable.


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## hawkwing (Mar 5, 2022)

I got the Costco kit quickly. It came with EC-1118. Should I consider switching to RC-212?


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## hawkwing (Apr 15, 2022)

So I finally got around to working on this. So far I'm confused because TA is 0.20-0.25%. pH is around 3 and unfortunately I can't test it better. My pH meter is jumping all over the place and I can't seem to get it to work. The pH strips I have go in increments of 1 so 3 is the best I can do. I've shorted the water and I wanted to see where I was at to see if it's workable but I was expecting the acid to be much higher as a result and wasn't expecting it to be way low.

Does anyone have any ideas? Should I just go with it?


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## hawkwing (Apr 15, 2022)

Apparently soaking my meter for a while in the calibration solution was all that was needed to get it working. The pH is 3.40. Still not sure if TA is an issue or not?

What I've done is I've taken the Argentina ridge Cabernet Sauvignon kit from Costco which is two 7L kits to make a total of 60 bottles and added them both to my fermenter. I've added water to get to an SG of 1.150. This ended up with a total volume of about 27-28 L instead of the intended 46 L.

I got a 2 lbs bag of black grapes and I soaked them in sodium meta-bisulfite for 5-10 minutes and rinsed them. Then I juiced them and put the pulp only into the fermenter. I took a couple quarts out to start the yeast to see if it will work and get the culture going strong. Not sure if the SG is too high for them. I switched out the EC1118 for RC212. Will see what happens.


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## hawkwing (Apr 15, 2022)

Oh I added both packets of oak chips and bentonite.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 15, 2022)

I am going to guess you will have a heck of a time getting the ferment to start. 1.150 is a very high starting SG. I am also unsure that I would swap out the powerhouse EC1118 (abv max of 18-20%) for RC212 (abv tolerance of 16%).


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## hawkwing (Apr 15, 2022)

cmason1957 said:


> I am going to guess you will have a heck of a time getting the ferment to start. 1.150 is a very high starting SG. I am also unsure that I would swap out the powerhouse EC1118 (abv max of 18-20%) for RC212 (abv tolerance of 16%).


We will see if getting it to start is a problem. If I was to do it over again I would start it with one bag of juice and add the second later. I didn't think it through enough. If I have to water it down a bit more it won't be the end of the world. I'm not worried about the alcohol tolerance. I plan to fortify. I specifically wanted the lower tolerance just in case I couldn't be around at the time it needed fortifying.


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## hawkwing (Apr 17, 2022)

Seems to be going. It started slowly yesterday but it's picked up today. I Just thought I should add some pectic enzyme because of the grape pulp and skins I added.


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## hawkwing (May 1, 2022)

The wine is now down to 1.051 and the yeast has slowed considerably. My target to fortify was 1.049-1.051 so I will likely rack and do this today. So far the only minor downside is it won't fit in one carboy but I have smaller carboys and jugs so no big deal.


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## hawkwing (Aug 16, 2022)

I ended up fortifying to 20% abv and didn’t have to sweeten it as it had the right amount. It has been bulk aging. At first it was a little raw but it’s definitely improving a lot.


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## VinesnBines (Aug 16, 2022)

Port styles really develop over time. Sounds great!


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## jburtner (Aug 16, 2022)

I've got a 3g carboy that I use for an everlasting/solera'ish port batch... I bottle about half when I like it then top up with some of whatever wines I've got bulk aging, oak, sweeten to taste with sugar or possibly unfermented juice and fortify with 120 proof brandy or grappa... Maybe add some fruit like blueberries or whatever at some point as well... Just let it sit under vacuum and by only bottling approximately half at any point. I've got a neutral barrel that would be interesting if I wanted to bump it up to 5 gallons for a year... I don't drink a ton of port so this is easy to keep going long term and has been quite good. The initial port kit was a chocolate raspberry kit.

Cheers!
-j


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## hawkwing (Oct 16, 2022)

I finally filtered and bottled this. It was a little hot so I added some distilled water. About 1.5 gallons. Since I shorted the water on a 60 bottle kit it seemed ok. I ended up with almost 38 bottles. I decided to filter it so I don’t get sediment in the bottles. I tilted the carboy to help get that last little bit out and something went through and plugged the filter and it started spraying everywhere. It was at the end luckily. Looking forward to drinking this.


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