# What grapes are you growing??



## CK55

Just out of curiosity what grapes are you growing, and why. And how many do you have??

I have Barbera, Alicante Bouschet, Merlot,Cabernet Franc and Criolla Mediana 123 total vines not including criolla which I have about 63 vines now. I've been slowly planting more of it.

Can't wait for the vines to mature I will get a bunch or criolla this year from 40 year old vines. I expect it to make a decent light red wine from the little information avaliable. As it's not a very well documented grape with very low plantings in California. I will be the only person making a wine that's 100% Criolla Mediana in the State.

I can't wait for the Merlot and Cab to mature I intend to go ahead and do a blend of around 70% Cab and 30% Merlot when they mature. The Alicante and Barbera will be single varietal wines. Although I might adjust color with some of the Alicante.

Also I figure I'll also ask what other grapes would grow well in Sandy soil, I have a climate nearly identical where I live to the Rhone region. I've been thinking about adding some white wines. I should also add that my property is on hilltop that gets lots of sun and a good breeze.


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## Masbustelo

Are you aware that in much of the US we can't grow any of the varieties that you mentioned? In the North we tend to grow "Northern Hybrids" of which there are quite a few., Both whites and reds.. These grapes and the production btechniques and challenges widely vary by geography. But the new varieties have made commercial wine production possible in States such as the Dakota's, Nebraska, Colorado, Minnesota, Iowa, and Illinois.


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## BigH

*Reds*
--------------------------------------------------------

Marquette : GDC
Frontenac: GDC
St Croix: GDC
Petite Pearl : TWC
Verona : TWC (planted this year. Replaced Foch)

*Whites*
--------------------------------------------------------

Edelwiess : GDC
Brianna: GDC
Frontenac Blanc: GDC
La Crescent : TWC
La Crosse : TWC (formerly on VSP)
The why was mostly dictated by finding grapes that are cold hardy in zone 5 and the research I did 5 years ago .... in depth research like purchasing and consuming vast quantities of wine from local wineries.

H


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## CK55

I'm in California where pretty much any grape will grow. Thus I grow a large variety of stuff. I'm adding Grenache and Gamay.


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## balatonwine

Pinot noir, Pinot gris, Gewürztraminer, Welschriesling, Turán (Agria in the USA), Kéknyelű


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## balatonwine

Masbustelo said:


> Are you aware that in much of the US we can't grow any of the varieties that you mentioned?



True. And good point.

But the Internet/Interwebs is/are global. And most of the global wine growing regions grow Vinifera. So I assume global comments are also welcomed.


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## CK55

balatonwine said:


> True. And good point.
> 
> But the Internet/Interwebs is/are global. And most of the global wine growing regions grow Vinifera. So I assume global comments are also welcomed.




Anyone can post, I grow a lot of European varietals because they make the best wine. Cabernet franc was mostly a pick of mine due to it preferring sand based soils and being easier to work with compared to cabernet sav. Alicante Bouschet has a long history in california.


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## Masbustelo

Im thinking, that at least from a hobbiest perspective: that considering the disease problems you guys have with vinifera, that with the built in disease resistance, that some of you California people ought to do some experimentation with Petite Pearl and Verona. At least six of each. Or a dozen. Do some experimenting both with disease resistance and taste comparison.


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## GreenEnvy22

I'm in the Niagara wine region, and just have some vines in our backyard.
I have about 30 Muscat vines, and 10 Riesling vines.
I also have a couple table grape vines, that I don't know the variety off (this will be first year of fruit for them).


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## askins3097

I’m located in Western Pennsylvania. This is my first year trying to grow grapes. It’s just a hobby for now. I have 6 Niagara and 6 Frontenac in the ground. Maybe in a few years after I figure out the whole process in our climate I’ll get more serious. 

I do have around 150 cuttings that are mostly all rooted now and in nursery pots for next year. How many of those I plant and how many I sell/give-away will depend on how much land I can prepare over the winter. I have a couple acres of prime south facing hillside to work with, but a lot of it is brush and 2nd/3rd growth woods. It’ll be a job and a half clearing even a half acre. I’m in no rush and just happy to learn the challenge of something new. I was getting bored with my traditional vegetable garden.


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## CK55

Masbustelo said:


> Im thinking, that at least from a hobbiest perspective: that considering the disease problems you guys have with vinifera, that with the built in disease resistance, that some of you California people ought to do some experimentation with Petite Pearl and Verona. At least six of each. Or a dozen. Do some experimenting both with disease resistance and taste comparison.


Yeah, I picked grapes with few diseases that they can get. All of mine are on 1103 and 101-14 rootstocks which have high resistance to phylloxera even though my vines couldn't get it even if not immune because of my Sandy soil which is why my criolla is 40 years old.


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## CK55

GreenEnvy22 said:


> I'm in the Niagara wine region, and just have some vines in our backyard.
> I have about 30 Muscat vines, and 10 Riesling vines.
> I also have a couple table grape vines, that I don't know the variety off (this will be first year of fruit for them).


Muscat is a good grape, the parent of criolla is Muscat Of Alexandria which is native to Egypt and known as the oldest known grape in the world that hadn't gone through any mutations. Which is white Muscat.

All Muscat grapes have a intense grapey flavor.


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## KevinL

Reds: Frontenac & Petite Pearl. 

Whites: Vidal Blanc and Itasca. Frontenac Gris.

I'm trying my hand with Riesling, but winter is unkind to them. The Vidal struggles up here as well. The majority of my plantings are the Itasca and Petite Pearl.


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## GreenEnvy22

CK55 said:


> Muscat is a good grape, the parent of criolla is Muscat Of Alexandria which is native to Egypt and known as the oldest known grape in the world that hadn't gone through any mutations. Which is white Muscat.
> 
> All Muscat grapes have a intense grapey flavor.



Yep, we love the aroma these have, which is why I've propagated from 15 to 30 

Just found 2 himrod table grape plants for $0.67 each on clearance at a local store, now I need to find somewhere to put them.


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## CK55

GreenEnvy22 said:


> Yep, we love the aroma these have, which is why I've propagated from 15 to 30
> 
> Just found 2 himrod table grape plants for $0.67 each on clearance at a local store, now I need to find somewhere to put them.


Nice,  I planted my Barbera because I have a lot of family still in Italy and here in the states, Funny thing is according to 2 dna tests, ive got 0% of the italian yet my grandmother on my moms side was 70%. Kinda got a big laugh out of it. But I planted it mostly because a lot of my family members like Barbera wine and it is way less common in the states, Really I wanted to give it a go. The unfortunate aspect is where I live can get really hot on rare occasion and my Barbera vines got damaged by 105 degree heat followed by 2 high 90F days. All my other vines were fine.


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## CK55

My Merlot is probably growing the fastest, I planted my merlot earlier this year and they are already about 6-8 inches above the grow tubes. Im frankly amazed at how fast they grew. At least compared to the others which were all planted at the same time. The alicante hasnt even grown out enough to reach the top of the tube.


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## CK55

Here's some pictures of Criolla mediana

https://imgur.com/a/O3Lkw1G


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## balatonwine

Masbustelo said:


> Im thinking, that at least from a hobbiest perspective: that considering the disease problems you guys have with vinifera, that with the built in disease resistance, that some of you California people ought to do some experimentation with Petite Pearl and Verona. At least six of each. Or a dozen. Do some experimenting both with disease resistance and taste comparison.



Grape vines created for one climate almost universally don't produce ideal wines in another climate. It took a few centuries for the concept of Terroir to develop, as to what grape vine varieties work best in what areas (climate, soil, etc).

I guess if a hobbyist wants to spend a decade or more (about the time it takes for the vines to really create a "proper" wine) trying out a cold temperature variety in a warm, dry climate they certainly can do so. But the results will most likely be disappointing (but, hey, I like a challenge myself, might consider it if weren't that I am a bit too old now to spend that amount of time myself -- I planted an experimental variety 8 years ago but I think I am now done experimenting). And disease resistance is not really huge issue in CA. The major disease there is powdery mildew, which is rather easily controlled.

By the way, *what grapes are your growing*? Which is of course the original topic (not a discussion on what to grow where). You are the only one here who has not said yet.


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## Masbustelo

TuMe, I've got Verona and Petite Pearl.


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## Masbustelo

Petite Pearl


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## ohiowino

My dad has 7 old concord vines that have a ton of grapes this year in Ohio. Not sure what can be done with concord other than a sweet wine. I have 2 new vines that just had a few clusters this year...I forget variety, makes a rose type wine I think.


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## CK55

ohiowino said:


> My dad has 7 old concord vines that have a ton of grapes this year in Ohio. Not sure what can be done with concord other than a sweet wine. I have 2 new vines that just had a few clusters this year...I forget variety, makes a rose type wine I think.




You can make wine from Concord, it doesn't necessarily have to be sweet but it will be intensely grapey in flavor. If I recall you can find something couple of videos on the topic on YouTube.

You should plant more grapes if you can, just do some research into what will grow where you live.

My area is unique in that it has a mix of elevations sea level and some mountain tops and hills. So with that Riesling will grow at lower elevations and on hilltop which see some fog you can grow Pinot and Chardonnay. As well as any Rhone varietals. But my climate is identical to Rhone. I have planted Merlot pretty much to blend with my cab, or make a single varietal wine I enjoy warm climate Merlot more than cool climate. It tends to have greater fruit flavors.


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## shrewsbury

Vermilion, OH
less than a mile from lake erie
zone 6A

180 vidal blanc - 120 are in third season, 60 are in second season
90 delaware - planted this spring

long term goal is icewine


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## CK55

shrewsbury said:


> Vermilion, OH
> less than a mile from lake erie
> zone 6A
> 
> 180 vidal blanc - 120 are in third season, 60 are in second season
> 90 delaware - planted this spring
> 
> long term goal is icewine


Sounds good . I've been thinking of adding Grenache to my vineyard.


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## Dennis Griffith

America, Buffalo, and Concord. Next year I add Sheridan. Most are America with others to help with fertilization.

The goal is an American Port.

PS. And one Neptune just for the table.


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## garymc

I grow, in order of quantity, Delicious, Tara, Ison, Triumph, Eudora, Majesty, Darlene, Supreme, Unknown, and Big Red. For those of you scratching your heads and thinking WTH? Yes, Heck. These are muscadines, native to the southeastern U. S. The source of America's first commercial wine. They haven't been bred and selected for thousands of years for winemaking, so they don't compare well to vinifera grapes for winemaking, especially if the standard used to compare is vinifera wine. They have 40 chromosomes as opposed to the 38 in all the other grapes. Yes, that make viniferas the retarded cousin. I grow them because they are immune or resistant to most grape diseases, fungus, and insects. I have never sprayed insect spray or fungicide on them. I have a couple of producing vines that are not on trellises. Just growing there on the ground. Right next to the dirt, bugs, humidity, etc. They are also not bothered by squirrels or birds. Opossums, skunks, and raccoons are the only serious predators I'm likely to encounter. Muscadine vines produce from 40 pounds to 200 pounds of grapes per vine and prefer a spacing of 20 feet. I didn't start growing them for the purpose of winemaking, but saw that as a means of preserving the fruit for year round consumption. They are one of the superfoods (I also grow 2 other superfood berries I make wine with, elderberries and aronia.) I have somewhere in the range of 60 vines.


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## CK55

garymc said:


> I grow, in order of quantity, Delicious, Tara, Ison, Triumph, Eudora, Majesty, Darlene, Supreme, Unknown, and Big Red. For those of you scratching your heads and thinking WTH? Yes, Heck. These are muscadines, native to the southeastern U. S. The source of America's first commercial wine. They haven't been bred and selected for thousands of years for winemaking, so they don't compare well to vinifera grapes for winemaking, especially if the standard used to compare is vinifera wine. They have 40 chromosomes as opposed to the 38 in all the other grapes. Yes, that make viniferas the retarded cousin. I grow them because they are immune or resistant to most grape diseases, fungus, and insects. I have never sprayed insect spray or fungicide on them. I have a couple of producing vines that are not on trellises. Just growing there on the ground. Right next to the dirt, bugs, humidity, etc. They are also not bothered by squirrels or birds. Opossums, skunks, and raccoons are the only serious predators I'm likely to encounter. Muscadine vines produce from 40 pounds to 200 pounds of grapes per vine and prefer a spacing of 20 feet. I didn't start growing them for the purpose of winemaking, but saw that as a means of preserving the fruit for year round consumption. They are one of the superfoods (I also grow 2 other superfood berries I make wine with, elderberries and aronia.) I have somewhere in the range of 60 vines.


Cool, Im not sure what i will get from my grapes, but i can tell you that my 40 year old Criolla Vines are managing to produce a pretty high yield considering they were dry grown with next to no water for the past 15 years and nobody managed to trim them down or even take care of them.


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## Dennis Griffith

garymc said:


> I grow, in order of quantity, Delicious, Tara, Ison, Triumph, Eudora, Majesty, Darlene, Supreme, Unknown, and Big Red. For those of you scratching your heads and thinking WTH? Yes, Heck. These are muscadines, native to the southeastern U. S. The source of America's first commercial wine. They haven't been bred and selected for thousands of years for winemaking, so they don't compare well to vinifera grapes for winemaking, especially if the standard used to compare is vinifera wine. They have 40 chromosomes as opposed to the 38 in all the other grapes. Yes, that make viniferas the retarded cousin. I grow them because they are immune or resistant to most grape diseases, fungus, and insects. I have never sprayed insect spray or fungicide on them. I have a couple of producing vines that are not on trellises. Just growing there on the ground. Right next to the dirt, bugs, humidity, etc. They are also not bothered by squirrels or birds. Opossums, skunks, and raccoons are the only serious predators I'm likely to encounter. Muscadine vines produce from 40 pounds to 200 pounds of grapes per vine and prefer a spacing of 20 feet. I didn't start growing them for the purpose of winemaking, but saw that as a means of preserving the fruit for year round consumption. They are one of the superfoods (I also grow 2 other superfood berries I make wine with, elderberries and aronia.) I have somewhere in the range of 60 vines.



I have been thinking of adding a muscadine to my collection. I'm just too far North for most varieties, but you've rekindled my interest. It looks like Nesbitt will survive here. What do you think?

We make trips to North Carolina and scuppernong/muscadine grapes are big there. And they make wine!


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## garymc

Dennis, I don't know what zone you're in, but if you're too far north, you may lose some vine due to: excessively cold winter temperatures or early extreme cold in the fall. I have had this happen a couple of times from the excessive cold over the winter. Muscadines have a heat accumulation requirement before they come out of dormancy, so you see people in Georgia losing vine in the spring due to late frost. I have never had that happen in Missouri. My most cold hardy vines are Delicious, Triumph, Tara, and Eudora. In February, 2015, we had minus 12 degrees during an extended cold spell and I lost parts of some vines. A couple were killed almost to the ground. But they all came back. Your other problem related to the zone is whether you have a long enough growing season to enable the vine to wait til it's warm enough to leaf out and then still have enough heat in the fall to ripen. You need to find early ripening varieties for that. Some sources claim muscadines are viable in zone 6. I have a few vines in St. Louis County that were substantially damaged this past winter. We had an extended period where the temperature never got above freezing. The roots of all of the St. Louis County vines have survived. None of my Southeast Missouri vines were damaged this winter. I don't have a Nesbitt, so I can't comment on it's cold hardiness.


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## Dennis Griffith

Thanks for your response. I will continue to research this before I decide to pop to cork. The vines I have are winter hardy and have withstood the cold readily. I did have a Himrod that failed to emerge from dormancy this year and it should have been ok in our zone (6A). But as I tell my wife, we live in frost hollow as it seems to frost here before the higher elevations around us. I would feel better if one was rated to Zone 4 or 5, but the one I mentioned (Nesbitt) is rated for Zone 6 and warmer. It may not be hardy enough for here.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Thanks for your response. I will continue to research this before I decide to pop to cork. The vines I have are winter hardy and have withstood the cold readily. I did have a Himrod that failed to emerge from dormancy this year and it should have been ok in our zone (6A). But as I tell my wife, we live in frost hollow as it seems to frost here before the higher elevations around us. I would feel better if one was rated to Zone 4 or 5, but the one I mentioned (Nesbitt) is rated for Zone 6 and warmer. It may not be hardy enough for here.


In California my zone is 9B. I don't start getting frost untill well in December.


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## CK55

I have a space of 9 months each year where stuff will grow, with hot summers, frost starts around 15th of December and ends by the first of March. So it's a pretty good grape growing region.

Unfortunately it did cause some damage to my Barbera vines.


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> I have a space of 9 months each year where stuff will grow, with hot summers, frost starts around 15th of December and ends by the first of March. So it's a pretty good grape growing region.
> 
> Unfortunately it did cause some damage to my Barbera vines.



We can get frost sometime in October with the last being as late as the end of May. Last year we had a hard freeze on May 15th that killed all the new growth on the vines. But they are hardy and came back, just a little later than they should. So I pick hardy vines that have reach maturity earlier.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> We can get frost sometime in October with the last being as late as the end of May. Last year we had a hard freeze on May 15th that killed all the new growth on the vines. But they are hardy and came back, just a little later than they should. So I pick hardy vines that have reach maturity earlier.


ah, well that is early enough that later ripening vines would be at risk, because of where i live i can grow almost every type of grape, so i guess i count myself lucky lol. 

I am like absolutely bouncing off the walls practically waiting for some of my vines to reach maturity so they can make enough grapes to make wine, as of now only the 40 year old Criolla vines actually make any grapes, i posted the pictures of them earlier but heres the link again.

https://imgur.com/a/O3Lkw1G


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## CK55

UPDATE:
So I have suspicion that at least one of the vines that I thought was Criolla Mediana might in fact be Alicante Bouschet because the leaves on it are starting to turn a deep dark purple, the vine has several small clusters of grapes on it, and I am looking forward to waiting untill they develop and pinching one of the grapes to see if the juice is blood red. That will be all the indication I need, which would also be great news, I would have one 40 year old Alicante Bouchet vine at least on its own rootstock.

We do know that Criolla Mediana and Alicante Bouschet were grown where the cuttings came from so it would not suprise me if they got mixed up by accident.


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## Johny99

Oh my, I planted what I like to drink

Reds. 
Cab Sauv
Cab franc
Sangiovese 
Tempranillo 
Merlot
Syrah
Petit Sirah
Petit Verdot
Malbec, ok I got these by pruning at a commercial vineyard

Whites
Sauvignon Blanc
Riesling 
Viognier 
Chardonnay 
Gwertraminer
Pino Blanc

Total of ~450 vines 

Yup, I’m nuts. In hindsight, stick to two or three ....... on the other hand I just did a tasting of five reds for a friend’s sister’s wedding, as in what to suggest to her, all 2015. Variety is fun but more work! 

That said, if you really have an Alicante Bouschet, please, please send me a cutting!


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## CK55

Johny99 said:


> Oh my, I planted what I like to drink
> 
> Reds.
> Cab Sauv
> Cab franc
> Sangiovese
> Tempranillo
> Merlot
> Syrah
> Petit Sirah
> Petit Verdot
> Malbec, ok I got these by pruning at a commercial vineyard
> 
> Whites
> Sauvignon Blanc
> Riesling
> Viognier
> Chardonnay
> Gwertraminer
> Pino Blanc
> 
> Total of ~450 vines
> 
> Yup, I’m nuts. In hindsight, stick to two or three ....... on the other hand I just did a tasting of five reds for a friend’s sister’s wedding, as in what to suggest to her, all 2015. Variety is fun but more work!
> 
> That said, if you really have an Alicante Bouschet, please, please send me a cutting!



I will do that lol. I have some Alicante Bouschet that I got that are grafts in the ground right now, and because i know that alicante bouschet around july- september turns purple thats why im very suspicious because they really stand out compared to other vines.

I do intend to plant Tempranillo, and I would love to get some Malbec.


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## Johny99

No idea where you are, but I’ll happily post you some Malbec for Alicante. My Malbec is only 4 years old, but coming on nice. Seems to love our hot summers. 

I’m having a love/ hate with Tempranillo. It is growing like crazy, but I’ve some what I suspect is leaf roll virus, and tons of mildew. I’ve ripped out the dozen or so vines that looked diseased, we’ll see. Makes decent wine, just not sure it is a fit for my little spot on the planet. 

If you are serious about a swap, let’s keep in touch.


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## CK55

Johny99 said:


> No idea where you are, but I’ll happily post you some Malbec for Alicante. My Malbec is only 4 years old, but coming on nice. Seems to love our hot summers.
> 
> I’m having a love/ hate with Tempranillo. It is growing like crazy, but I’ve some what I suspect is leaf roll virus, and tons of mildew. I’ve ripped out the dozen or so vines that looked diseased, we’ll see. Makes decent wine, just not sure it is a fit for my little spot on the planet.
> 
> If you are serious about a swap, let’s keep in touch.


Well Tempranillo likes hot weather and sand, im in California on the central coast south of The Paso Robles area so I dont have to worry about mildew. I think it would do well here, typically though where im at is ideal for Rhone Varietals. As its nearly identical in climate to Rhone.

I would trade some Alicante once ive verified for sure that it is Alicante for some Malbec. Which is used in Bordeaux blends which is partially why i want it, I have Cabernet Franc and Merlot, so I intend to blend the Malbec with those varietals.


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## CK55

Update have added more Carmenere and Picpoul Blanc and Picardan to my vineyard as well as replaced 3 alicante bouschet that didnt make it for some reason.

The dead alicante vines were 101-14 Rootstock,

Barbera 101-14
Alicante 101-14 and 3 1103P
Merlot 1103P
Cabernet Franc 1103P
Carmenere Riparia Gloire
Picpoul blanc and Picardan S04

Just a little bit of information about my rootstocks that some vines are on.

Also yes that mystery vine was determined to be alicante bouschet.


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## Karl

I'm in northern Illinois. Have around 35 varieties planted, of which most of those are cold climate varieties. I do have a few vines of Cab Franc, Cab Sauvignon, Riesling, Petit Verdot, Regent, Zweigelt, Petite Sirah, Gewurztraminer, Tannat and Merlot planted that i have to cover in the winter to avoid heavy bud damage. Large rose cones work well if you can prune the vines down in December and grow them like a shrub. I grow mine in an area of the yard that is heavy clay & limestone, but the vines still over grow, so the fruit is best used for grape jelly.


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## Karl

CK55 said:


> Well Tempranillo likes hot weather and sand, im in California on the central coast south of The Paso Robles area so I dont have to worry about mildew. I think it would do well here, typically though where im at is ideal for Rhone Varietals. As its nearly identical in climate to Rhone.
> 
> I would trade some Alicante once ive verified for sure that it is Alicante for some Malbec. Which is used in Bordeaux blends which is partially why i want it, I have Cabernet Franc and Merlot, so I intend to blend the Malbec with those varietals.



Would think the southern Rhone varieties are ideally suited for your area.


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## CK55

Karl said:


> Would think the southern Rhone varieties are ideally suited for your area.


They are ideally suited for my area, but I planted all the Bordeaux grapes. And most of the Italian reds. 

I'm adding Nebbiolo. And Malbec.

Really I went with the Bordeaux 6 because of blending quality.


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## Mr Joe

As I read these posts, I am impressed by the knowledge and vocabulary used throughout. I say this as an ignorant, very new enthusiast to the world of wine and wine making. To the point - I am in Phoenix, AZ., growing Vitis Vinifera, it has seeds and is very sweet to the untrained pallet. In your opinions, can I make a palatable wine? What type of grapes would be a good choice for red wine making here? If you have read this far, thank you.


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## CK55

Mr Joe said:


> As I read these posts, I am impressed by the knowledge and vocabulary used throughout. I say this as an ignorant, very new enthusiast to the world of wine and wine making. To the point - I am in Phoenix, AZ., growing Vitis Vinifera, it has seeds and is very sweet to the untrained pallet. In your opinions, can I make a palatable wine? What type of grapes would be a good choice for red wine making here? If you have read this far, thank you.


What kind of soil do you have? Sand? clay? I'm assuming probably sandy. I will look up the Growing zone you would be in and see what varietals would grow where you live. Vinifera means European common grape or really any wine grape from Europe which are the ones that make the best wines. 

You are in USDA zone 9A or 9B which is actually less than I am so you could probably grow a lot of what I could. My zone is 10A

I would start with something simple, like Cabernet Franc. Because its easy to grow, and I would recommend checking out NovaVine for getting your vines, and I would also recommend going with rootstock 1103P


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## Karl

Mr Joe said:


> As I read these posts, I am impressed by the knowledge and vocabulary used throughout. I say this as an ignorant, very new enthusiast to the world of wine and wine making. To the point - I am in Phoenix, AZ., growing Vitis Vinifera, it has seeds and is very sweet to the untrained pallet. In your opinions, can I make a palatable wine? What type of grapes would be a good choice for red wine making here? If you have read this far, thank you.



Phoenix is too hot for 99% of the vines. Arizona wine country is up north by Flagstaff where it is a little cooler. Still, there are some vines that do well in warmer climates, stuff like Mourvedre, Grenache, Carignane, Cabernet Sauvignon, Malbec, the Portugese varieties, probably Nero d'Avola, Syrah, Zinfandel, Alicante Bouschet....


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## Dennis Griffith

Karl said:


> Phoenix is too hot for 99% of the vines. Arizona wine country is up north by Flagstaff where it is a little cooler. Still, there are some vines that do well in warmer climates, stuff like Mourvedre, Grenache, Carignane, Cabernet Sauvignon, Malbec, the Portugese varieties, probably Nero d'Avola, Syrah, Zinfandel, Alicante Bouschet....



Maybe I cold share some of our 'too cold' and we could split the difference?? What a splendid grape we would grow!


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## CK55

Karl said:


> Phoenix is too hot for 99% of the vines. Arizona wine country is up north by Flagstaff where it is a little cooler. Still, there are some vines that do well in warmer climates, stuff like Mourvedre, Grenache, Carignane, Cabernet Sauvignon, Malbec, the Portugese varieties, probably Nero d'Avola, Syrah, Zinfandel, Alicante Bouschet....


Alicante Bouschet grows in the California valleys that hit 115 F so yeah it would grow where you are because it's parent is grenache and petit Bouschet.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> Maybe I cold share some of our 'too cold' and we could split the difference?? What a splendid grape we would grow!


??


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## Hank

We have about 400 Grenache Noir vines that are loaded and already reading 25 Brix. We are in Valley Center Ca and the heat has caused a lot of early ripening. Should make for a great high sugar harvest. Looking for someone interested in trading grapes for wine. We bought this vineyard this spring with no time to plan for a harvest. Plants are bird netted and will be ready to pick in a month. Any amateur winemakers near San Diego?


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## CK55

Hank said:


> We have about 400 Grenache Noir vines that are loaded and already reading 25 Brix. We are in Valley Center Ca and the heat has caused a lot of early ripening. Should make for a great high sugar harvest. Looking for someone interested in trading grapes for wine. We bought this vineyard this spring with no time to plan for a harvest. Plants are bird netted and will be ready to pick in a month. Any amateur winemakers near San Diego?


I wish that San Diego wasnt a 6-8 hour drive cause i would love to get some grenache grapes. Im getting some Sangiovese from a local vineyard this month.


----------



## Mr Joe

CK55 said:


> What kind of soil do you have? Sand? clay? I'm assuming probably sandy. I will look up the Growing zone you would be in and see what varietals would grow where you live. Vinifera means European common grape or really any wine grape from Europe which are the ones that make the best wines.
> 
> You are in USDA zone 9A or 9B which is actually less than I am so you could probably grow a lot of what I could. My zone is 10A
> 
> I would start with something simple, like Cabernet Franc. Because its easy to grow, and I would recommend checking out NovaVine for getting your vines, and I would also recommend going with rootstock 1103P



Thank you, The best wines!? Now the pressure is on. My soil has a lot of clay in it,


----------



## Mr Joe

Mr Joe said:


> Thank you, The best wines!? Now the pressure is on. My soil has a lot of clay in it,


Sorry, lap top died. Love your suggestions on varieties and thank you so much for the root stock id.


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## CK55

Mr Joe said:


> Sorry, lap top died. Love your suggestions on varieties and thank you so much for the root stock id.


Yeah, you should try to plant a spanish varietal as most if not all of them are heat tolerant. Mourvedre,Tempranillo,Alicante Bouschet which is a french grape but heat tolerant. Carmenere like warmer climates as well. Zinfandel does tolerate high temps. 

Check out Novavine, they have a wide selection of grapes on various rootstocks, and can help you to get some grapes.


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## Vinekpr

Such a sad story I have. I started planting my vineyard (Chardonel, Traminett, Chambourcin, Concord and Thompson seedless) about 7 years ago. Fought the deer year after year and finally found a defense using a multi-layer electric fence. Then to my dismay the Japanese beetles attacked with a vengeance. At year 4 they defoliated 500+ vines (out of 680). Year 5 they took out the rest. I've given up grapes and replanted with Blackberries. Brewing my first batch of Blackberry wine. Only about 95 vines producing this year. Planted another 250 this spring. I'm getting a little older so it takes a little longer to plant in this Missouri clay and rock.


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## CK55

Vinekpr said:


> Such a sad story I have. I started planting my vineyard (Chardonel, Traminett, Chambourcin, Concord and Thompson seedless) about 7 years ago. Fought the deer year after year and finally found a defense using a multi-layer electric fence. Then to my dismay the Japanese beetles attacked with a vengeance. At year 4 they defoliated 500+ vines (out of 680). Year 5 they took out the rest. I've given up grapes and replanted with Blackberries. Brewing my first batch of Blackberry wine. Only about 95 vines producing this year. Planted another 250 this spring. I'm getting a little older so it takes a little longer to plant in this Missouri clay and rock.


Keep planting you will win in the end, you just have to spray them frequently, dont wait to spray untill you see the bugs spray beforehand.

As to deer, just put netting over the vines. They cant get to them.


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## Maynard123

I am growing six vines, all Muscadine, Big Red, Ison, Black Fry, Cowart, Noble, and Higgins. I am a hobbiest and wanted to make wine from our native grape, also since it is the most disease resistant for where I live. (Northeastern North Carolina) I have been making Muscadine wine now for about six years and can't wait for my vines to produce enough grapes to make a batch from each one. They are three years old this year and last year I got 65lbs from them, it looks like I may get double that this year.


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## CK55

Maynard123 said:


> I am growing six vines, all Muscadine, Big Red, Ison, Black Fry, Cowart, Noble, and Higgins. I am a hobbiest and wanted to make wine from our native grape, also since it is the most disease resistant for where I live. (Northeastern North Carolina) I have been making Muscadine wine now for about six years and can't wait for my vines to produce enough grapes to make a batch from each one. They are three years old this year and last year I got 65lbs from them, it looks like I may get double that this year.


Nice, I haven't dabbled much with native grapes because most of them have a average wine making quality. Or strong grapey flavor like Concord. Although Norton does not, that's probably the only grape I would plant native grape wise.


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## Mr Joe

CK55 said:


> Yeah, you should try to plant a spanish varietal as most if not all of them are heat tolerant. Mourvedre,Tempranillo,Alicante Bouschet which is a french grape but heat tolerant. Carmenere like warmer climates as well. Zinfandel does tolerate high temps.
> 
> Check out Novavine, they have a wide selection of grapes on various rootstocks, and can help you to get some grapes.


I’d like to plant them all. This little hobby I’ve started is growing like a you know what. Made a possible fatal wine making error yesterday so I’m reading a bunch to see if can I can or need to fix anything. In the process of my research I’ll read about Spanish varieties. Thank you


----------



## Mr Joe

Maynard123 said:


> I am growing six vines, all Muscadine, Big Red, Ison, Black Fry, Cowart, Noble, and Higgins. I am a hobbiest and wanted to make wine from our native grape, also since it is the most disease resistant for where I live. (Northeastern North Carolina) I have been making Muscadine wine now for about six years and can't wait for my vines to produce enough grapes to make a batch from each one. They are three years old this year and last year I got 65lbs from them, it looks like I may get double that this year.


Is that typical for a vine? Seems like that is what happened to me.


----------



## Mr Joe

Vinekpr said:


> Such a sad story I have. I started planting my vineyard (Chardonel, Traminett, Chambourcin, Concord and Thompson seedless) about 7 years ago. Fought the deer year after year and finally found a defense using a multi-layer electric fence. Then to my dismay the Japanese beetles attacked with a vengeance. At year 4 they defoliated 500+ vines (out of 680). Year 5 they took out the rest. I've given up grapes and replanted with Blackberries. Brewing my first batch of Blackberry wine. Only about 95 vines producing this year. Planted another 250 this spring. I'm getting a little older so it takes a little longer to plant in this Missouri clay and rock.


That is sad, super sorry that you lost all that. Truly hope that the blackberry wine is a success. 
I have a great old buddy from Missouri, wave hi to Cecil sometime for me.


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## CK55

Mr Joe said:


> Is that typical for a vine? Seems like that is what happened to me.


Vines take 3 years to produce at max from planting. Mine will probably produce around 2019-2020.


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## coboll2921

Mr Joe said:


> That is sad, super sorry that you lost all that. Truly hope that the blackberry wine is a success.
> I have a great old buddy from Missouri, wave hi to Cecil sometime for me.



Sorry to hear that, all that work for nothing.


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## coboll2921

Marquette and some variety from Hungary brought over in the 1970's??? (that was the story anyways)
Hoping to blend the two when I get enough produce. This is the 3rd year and not many. What I do have the birds are getting them. I'll need to invest in a net next year.


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## CK55

coboll2921 said:


> Marquette and some variety from Hungary brought over in the 1970's??? (that was the story anyways)
> Hoping to blend the two when I get enough produce. This is the 3rd year and not many. What I do have the birds are getting them. I'll need to invest in a net next year.


Yep, and make sure you spray for bugs. I am intrigued by the Hungarian grape.


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## Mr Joe

CK55 said:


> Yep, and make sure you spray for bugs. I am intrigued by the Hungarian grape.


Last year my vines started to get hit by a very colorful worm that skinned the leaves until they were thinner than paper. Any organic, or not, pesticides you’d suggest?


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## CK55

Mr Joe said:


> Last year my vines started to get hit by a very colorful worm that skinned the leaves until they were thinner than paper. Any organic, or not, pesticides you’d suggest?


Neem Oil, its organic as its made from a compound from a tree indigenous i think to india if i recall. Its naturally effective against pests and will kill nasty bugs but leave bees and ladybugs, unharmed.


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## Ray Stern Garden

North Georgia, near Atlanta, climate zone 7b. 

(Top photo) I have a little vineyard in the front yard with 24 Cynthiana / Norton and 6 Lenoir / Old Spanish "Favorite" variety. I had a couple rows of Blanc du Bois, a white wine variety developed in Florida but it got hit by black rot so bad that I pulled them out and replanted with more Cynthiana. These are all trained to the high cordon system. The rows were planned to go around two nice dogwood trees that I couldn't bear to cut down but my thinking was that trees and grapes have learned to get along for many, many years, right? And it seems the vines closest to the trees are growing the best. All rows and paths are mulched with wood chips, the paths had cardboard laid down under the chips.

(Bottom photo) Muscadines - Ison (red) and Magnolia (bronze) varieties. I also have some 20-plus year old muscadines closer to the house planted using the Geneva Double Curtain system. Carlos and Triumph (bronze) and Southland (red). I've tried for years but Southland does not make good wine, it always has a 'green grape' taste no matter how careful I am to only use ripe fruit. But it makes great jelly.

It's been a good year for all my grapes. A problem that I need to somehow correct next year is that the hybrids Cynthiana and Old Spanish were way too vigorous! Which was surprising since they are planted in holes that I nearly had to blast down into heavy red clay. I hedged the rows in July and that only caused them to come back with a vengeance, sending out new shoots that even started to bloom again! I did not fertilize at all this year, btw, except a couple foliar sprays with seaweed fertilizer back way back when they were blooming. 

Yesterday grapes gathered from both hybrids tested right at 20 Brix. I believe I'll be harvesting next week.


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## CK55

S


Ray Stern Garden said:


> North Georgia, near Atlanta, climate zone 7b.
> 
> (Top photo) I have a little vineyard in the front yard with 24 Cynthiana / Norton and 6 Lenoir / Old Spanish "Favorite" variety. I had a couple rows of Blanc du Bois, a white wine variety developed in Florida but it got hit by black rot so bad that I pulled them out and replanted with more Cynthiana. These are all trained to the high cordon system. The rows were planned to go around two nice dogwood trees that I couldn't bear to cut down but my thinking was that trees and grapes have learned to get along for many, many years, right? And it seems the vines closest to the trees are growing the best. All rows and paths are mulched with wood chips, the paths had cardboard laid down under the chips.
> 
> (Bottom photo) Muscadines - Ison (red) and Magnolia (bronze) varieties. I also have some 20-plus year old muscadines closer to the house planted using the Geneva Double Curtain system. Carlos and Triumph (bronze) and Southland (red). I've tried for years but Southland does not make good wine, it always has a 'green grape' taste no matter how careful I am to only use ripe fruit. But it makes great jelly.
> 
> It's been a good year for all my grapes. A problem that I need to somehow correct next year is that the hybrids Cynthiana and Old Spanish were way too vigorous! Which was surprising since they are planted in holes that I nearly had to blast down into heavy red clay. I hedged the rows in July and that only caused them to come back with a vengeance, sending out new shoots that even started to bloom again! I did not fertilize at all this year, btw, except a couple foliar sprays with seaweed fertilizer back way back when they were blooming.
> 
> Yesterday grapes gathered from both hybrids tested right at 20 Brix. I believe I'll be harvesting next week.


Nice  I like how you are keeping it clean and well maintained looks professional.

I've been wanting some Norton if I could get it to grow out here in California because it's the only native grape without the typical taste.


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## hanfordhollowvineyar

CK55 said:


> Just out of curiosity what grapes are you growing, and why. And how many do you have??
> 
> I have Barbera, Alicante Bouschet, Merlot,Cabernet Franc and Criolla Mediana 123 total vines not including criolla which I have about 63 vines now. I've been slowly planting more of it.
> 
> Can't wait for the vines to mature I will get a bunch or criolla this year from 40 year old vines. I expect it to make a decent light red wine from the little information avaliable. As it's not a very well documented grape with very low plantings in California. I will be the only person making a wine that's 100% Criolla Mediana in the State.
> 
> I can't wait for the Merlot and Cab to mature I intend to go ahead and do a blend of around 70% Cab and 30% Merlot when they mature. The Alicante and Barbera will be single varietal wines. Although I might adjust color with some of the Alicante.
> 
> Also I figure I'll also ask what other grapes would grow well in Sandy soil, I have a climate nearly identical where I live to the Rhone region. I've been thinking about adding some white wines. I should also add that my property is on hilltop that gets lots of sun and a good breeze.


I'm just starting out in the western foothills of the Catskill mountains in NY State. Normally no one grows wine grapes here, so mine is an experiment. Choosing cold hardy Frontenac Gris and Marquette. I've got about 60 vines on a south facing slope that has a lot of shale and clay. I'm in the second year of 14 of those vines. All the rest just planted this year.


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## CK55

hanfordhollowvineyar said:


> I'm just starting out in the western foothills of the Catskill mountains in NY State. Normally no one grows wine grapes here, so mine is an experiment. Choosing cold hardy Frontenac Gris and Marquette. I've got about 60 vines on a south facing slope that has a lot of shale and clay. I'm in the second year of 14 of those vines. All the rest just planted this year.


You might call me crazy but you could possibly plant some vinifera. on rootstock. Riesling and Cabernet franc are very cold tolerant.


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## hanfordhollowvineyar

CK55 said:


> You might call me crazy but you could possibly plant some vinifera. on rootstock. Riesling and Cabernet franc are very cold tolerant.


I won't call you crazy, but everything I've read about growing in my area says vinifera don't work. It gets (or used to get) really cold here in the winter and I'm at almost 2000 ft.


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## CK55

hanfordhollowvineyar said:


> I won't call you crazy, but everything I've read about growing in my area says vinifera don't work. It gets (or used to get) really cold here in the winter and I'm at almost 2000 ft.


Ah, well Riesling is grown in Germany where it snows so that's why it would be okay and cab franc is regarded as the most cold tolerant vinifera vine.


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## balatonwine

CK55 said:


> Vines take 3 years to produce at max from planting



Mine normally starts producing after 3 years, but has taken up to 5 years to reach good output. But, due to local regulations, we don't irrigate -- and that does have an affect.

It most cases, it is a widely held opinion that it takes about 10 years for the root rhizomes to develop fully to create a "mature" wine from new plantings.


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## balatonwine

CK55 said:


> Ah, well Riesling is grown in Germany where it snows so that's why it would be okay and cab franc is regarded as the most cold tolerant vinifera vine.



Snows here too. Often a lot, and I grow many different varieties of Vinifera:




Snow or not, or the amount of snow is not really that relevant. Rather temp extremes -- how cold it gets, and frost free growing season length (i.e. degree days) matter more. Whites tend to do better in cooler climates. Exceptions exist, such as Pinot noir (which I do grow).

I honestly do not know the range of Cab Franc, but I live in a cooler region and don't know any grown locally. The best cab franc is grown much to the warmer south of me (In Villány). That is, Cab Franc may grow here, I really don't know, but I honestly don't know if it can produce a high quality wine here. In any case, it is not on the list of allowed varieties in my region.


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## guarddog

CK55 said:


> Just out of curiosity what grapes are you growing, and why. And how many do you have??
> 
> I have Barbera, Alicante Bouschet, Merlot,Cabernet Franc and Criolla Mediana 123 total vines not including criolla which I have about 63 vines now. I've been slowly planting more of it.
> 
> Can't wait for the vines to mature I will get a bunch or criolla this year from 40 year old vines. I expect it to make a decent light red wine from the little information avaliable. As it's not a very well documented grape with very low plantings in California. I will be the only person making a wine that's 100% Criolla Mediana in the State.
> 
> I can't wait for the Merlot and Cab to mature I intend to go ahead and do a blend of around 70% Cab and 30% Merlot when they mature. The Alicante and Barbera will be single varietal wines. Although I might adjust color with some of the Alicante.
> 
> Also I figure I'll also ask what other grapes would grow well in Sandy soil, I have a climate nearly identical where I live to the Rhone region. I've been thinking about adding some white wines. I should also add that my property is on hilltop that gets lots of sun and a good breeze.


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## guarddog

I grow blue ives grapes.They are planted by my dog pen and grow over the entire pen.Dog pee runs off the concrete floor and makes the grapes grow and produce real good.I have 2 stalks that are 9 years old and the vines are 30 feet long.This year I got 241 pounds of grapes off of the 2 stalks.In the last 5 years I got 1000 pounds off of these 2 stalks.Dog pee does wonders for grapes.Blue ives grapes are a rare type of dark purple grapes.


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## CK55

balatonwine said:


> Snows here too. Often a lot, and I grow many different varieties of Vinifera:
> 
> View attachment 50665
> 
> 
> Snow or not, or the amount of snow is not really that relevant. Rather temp extremes -- how cold it gets, and frost free growing season length (i.e. degree days) matter more. Whites tend to do better in cooler climates. Exceptions exist, such as Pinot noir (which I do grow).
> 
> I honestly do not know the range of Cab Franc, but I live in a cooler region and don't know any grown locally. The best cab franc is grown much to the warmer south of me (In Villány). That is, Cab Franc may grow here, I really don't know, but I honestly don't know if it can produce a high quality wine here. In any case, it is not on the list of allowed varieties in my region.


Nice, yeah I don't have any weather threats. I get no snow,no frost, no insane heat usually. I get s fog lsyer that comes in sometimes cools it down. But unlike 90% of California I'm considered cool climate. So I won't get that vibrsnt fruitiness that napa wines get.

As to 10 years for mature wine. It's actually mostly to allow mycorrhizae to develop which can both strenghthen a plant and make it even more resistant to environmental problems.


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## balatonwine

CK55 said:


> As to 10 years for mature wine. It's actually mostly to allow mycorrhizae to develop which can both strenghthen a plant and make it even more resistant to environmental problems.



Lets just say the issues are complex. But the overall opinion of many** is older vines tend to create better wines:

http://www.winewisdom.com/articles/techie/old-vines-do-they-make-the-best-wines/


** Of course, and on the other hand, who cares about the opinions of so called, self proclaimed elites regarding subtle and esoteric issues on the fine grained features of wine quality? Grow and drink what you like.


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## JimInNJ

Cabernet Franc, Syrah and Dornfelder, 14 plants total, in their third year in the main vineyard.



Two Cab Franc are on individual Lyre trellises, along with two Barbera and a Sangiovese (not pictured) that were added this year.


----------



## CK55

JimInNJ said:


> Cabernet Franc, Syrah and Dornfelder, 14 plants total, in their third year in the main vineyard.
> View attachment 50694
> 
> 
> Two Cab Franc are on individual Lyre trellises, along with two Barbera and a Sangiovese (not pictured) that were added this year.
> View attachment 50695


I approve of your varietals, you should get some good grapes. My Cabernet is on VSP and my Barbera and Nebbiolo are getting their trellis installed today.


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## Maynard123

Mr Joe said:


> Is that typical for a vine? Seems like that is what happened to me.


----------



## wgjacksonjr

Growing Baco Noir, Isabella and Elvira in a marketing/presentation plot for a soon to be winery. These were all grown back in the late 1800's, the era in which my building was built as part of a glass factory.


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## Stressbaby

Vinekpr said:


> Such a sad story I have. I started planting my vineyard (Chardonel, Traminett, Chambourcin, Concord and Thompson seedless) about 7 years ago. Fought the deer year after year and finally found a defense using a multi-layer electric fence. Then to my dismay the Japanese beetles attacked with a vengeance. At year 4 they defoliated 500+ vines (out of 680). Year 5 they took out the rest. I've given up grapes and replanted with Blackberries. Brewing my first batch of Blackberry wine. Only about 95 vines producing this year. Planted another 250 this spring. I'm getting a little older so it takes a little longer to plant in this Missouri clay and rock.



I'm in Missouri too. Year 2 with Traminette, Frontenac, Foch, Chardonel, Chambourcin, Norton, and Vidal Blanc. I got a couple hundred pounds this year off of two (of seven) rows. Beetles were BAD. They like blackberries too by the way. I had about 1/3 of my vines defoliated completely by the beetles but they recovered. You have to stay diligent about spraying. 

Where in MO are you?


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## runswithsizzers

Stressbaby said:


> I'm in Missouri too. Year 2 with Traminette, Frontenac, Foch, Chardonel, Chambourcin, Norton, and Vidal Blanc. I got a couple hundred pounds this year off of two (of seven) rows. Beetles were BAD. They like blackberries too by the way. I had about 1/3 of my vines defoliated completely by the beetles but they recovered. You have to stay diligent about spraying.
> 
> Where in MO are you?


I am in Springfield. Also had (partial) beetle defoliation early in summer. 

Are your Nortons ripe? What kind of numbers? My cheap refractometer tells me 18.6 Brix / 1.077 but they look and taste riper than that to me.


----------



## CK55

runswithsizzers said:


> I am in Springfield. Also had (partial) beetle defoliation early in summer.
> 
> Are your Nortons ripe? What kind of numbers? My cheap refractometer tells me 18.6 Brix / 1.077 but they look and taste riper than that to me.


Your grapes are not ripe they should be more in the 21-26 brix range. At least to make decent wine.


----------



## Stressbaby

runswithsizzers said:


> I am in Springfield. Also had (partial) beetle defoliation early in summer.
> 
> Are your Nortons ripe? What kind of numbers? My cheap refractometer tells me 18.6 Brix / 1.077 but they look and taste riper than that to me.



Second year, I clipped all of them. The handful of clusters I missed are long gone due to the birds.


----------



## runswithsizzers

CK55 said:


> Your grapes are not ripe they should be more in the 21-26 brix range. At least to make decent wine.


Yes, I know my numbers are too low, but I had just bought this cheap refractometer and did not yet know if it could be trusted. Today I picked enough grapes to do more testing and verified the SG by refractometer is pretty close to my hydrometer. So now I know for sure.

Still, it would be good to know if there are any other experienced Norton-Cynthiana growers in SW Missouri or NW Arkansas and when they usually ripen in this area. And if anybody in this region are getting close to ripe.


----------



## cmason1957

runswithsizzers said:


> Yes, I know my numbers are too low, but I had just bought this cheap refractometer and did not yet know if it could be trusted. Today I picked enough grapes to do more testing and verified the SG by refractometer is pretty close to my hydrometer. So now I know for sure.
> 
> Still, it would be good to know if there are any other experienced Norton-Cynthiana growers in SW Missouri or NW Arkansas and when they usually ripen in this area. And if anybody in this region are getting close to ripe.


I'm near St. Louis and don't grow grapes, but few several friends that do. One has picked his, they always ripen early. Most others won't pick their Norton until Oct. Maybe even mid - Oct.


----------



## runswithsizzers

cmason1957 said:


> I'm near St. Louis and don't grow grapes, but few several friends that do. One has picked his, they always ripen early. Most others won't pick their Norton until Oct. Maybe even mid - Oct.


Thanks for that information!


----------



## bluedart

CK55 said:


> Just out of curiosity what grapes are you growing, and why. And how many do you have??
> 
> I have Barbera, Alicante Bouschet, Merlot,Cabernet Franc and Criolla Mediana 123 total vines not including criolla which I have about 63 vines now. I've been slowly planting more of it.
> 
> Can't wait for the vines to mature I will get a bunch or criolla this year from 40 year old vines. I expect it to make a decent light red wine from the little information avaliable. As it's not a very well documented grape with very low plantings in California. I will be the only person making a wine that's 100% Criolla Mediana in the State.
> 
> I can't wait for the Merlot and Cab to mature I intend to go ahead and do a blend of around 70% Cab and 30% Merlot when they mature. The Alicante and Barbera will be single varietal wines. Although I might adjust color with some of the Alicante.
> 
> Also I figure I'll also ask what other grapes would grow well in Sandy soil, I have a climate nearly identical where I live to the Rhone region. I've been thinking about adding some white wines. I should also add that my property is on hilltop that gets lots of sun and a good breeze.


----------



## bluedart

CK55 said:


> Just out of curiosity what grapes are you growing, and why. And how many do you have??
> 
> I have Barbera, Alicante Bouschet, Merlot,Cabernet Franc and Criolla Mediana 123 total vines not including criolla which I have about 63 vines now. I've been slowly planting more of it.
> 
> Can't wait for the vines to mature I will get a bunch or criolla this year from 40 year old vines. I expect it to make a decent light red wine from the little information avaliable. As it's not a very well documented grape with very low plantings in California. I will be the only person making a wine that's 100% Criolla Mediana in the State.
> 
> I can't wait for the Merlot and Cab to mature I intend to go ahead and do a blend of around 70% Cab and 30% Merlot when they mature. The Alicante and Barbera will be single varietal wines. Although I might adjust color with some of the Alicante.
> 
> Also I figure I'll also ask what other grapes would grow well in Sandy soil, I have a climate nearly identical where I live to the Rhone region. I've been thinking about adding some white wines. I should also add that my property is on hilltop that gets lots of sun and a good breeze.


I just happened to see a grape plant for sale in the local seed shop. It was Baco Noir and was recommended as a hardy vine for our climate in Nova Scotia, Canada (zone 6). So it is just one plant but as a three year old it seems to be developing well. The berries are quite small


----------



## CK55

https://imgur.com/a/tLiFus5

I was looking at my vines that were planted next to my Criolla, and these came from the same area and noticed that 3 of the vines all had wickedly different grapes, so im thinking i might have something else mixed in, one on the end thats not pictured is very different.


----------



## Dennis Griffith

Vinekpr said:


> Such a sad story I have. I started planting my vineyard (Chardonel, Traminett, Chambourcin, Concord and Thompson seedless) about 7 years ago. Fought the deer year after year and finally found a defense using a multi-layer electric fence. Then to my dismay the Japanese beetles attacked with a vengeance. At year 4 they defoliated 500+ vines (out of 680). Year 5 they took out the rest. I've given up grapes and replanted with Blackberries. Brewing my first batch of Blackberry wine. Only about 95 vines producing this year. Planted another 250 this spring. I'm getting a little older so it takes a little longer to plant in this Missouri clay and rock.



As for deer, I run a 7+ foot fence with electric on top. Slanting the fence out or in a little will discourage the deer from trying to jump it. They don't jump any thing they are unsure of and the crackling electric wire helps with that.

As for bugs, start spraying before you expect bug emergence. I keep a journal and record first observance of beetles each year so that I have a good idea of when to expect them. I use Garden Tech Sevin (non carbaryl based), which is devastating to JBs. You should have a spray program and adjust the mix depending on time of year. There are some .edu publications out that address emergence of various pests and diseases. They may not be 100% accurate for your location, but are a starting point that you can tweak with experience.


----------



## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> As for deer, I run a 7+ foot fence with electric on top. Slanting the fence out or in a little will discourage the deer from trying to jump it. They don't jump any thing they are unsure of and the crackling electric wire helps with that.
> 
> As for bugs, start spraying before you expect bug emergence. I keep a journal and record first observance of beetles each year so that I have a good idea of when to expect them. I use Garden Tech Sevin (non carbaryl based), which is devastating to JBs. You should have a spray program and adjust the mix depending on time of year. There are some .edu publications out that address emergence of various pests and diseases. They may not be 100% accurate for your location, but are a starting point that you can tweak with experience.


Thats smart, i use a variety of sprays including one made for grapes over the winter. And a spring spray to keep my vines clean year round.


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## CK55

bluedart said:


> I just happened to see a grape plant for sale in the local seed shop. It was Baco Noir and was recommended as a hardy vine for our climate in Nova Scotia, Canada (zone 6). So it is just one plant but as a three year old it seems to be developing well. The berries are quite small


Plant more vines!


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## Dennis Griffith

CK55 said:


> Thats smart, i use a variety of sprays including one made for grapes over the winter. And a spring spray to keep my vines clean year round.



I adjusted my spray schedule this year by adding 2 new pesticides and an additional fungicide. I had been using a carbaryl based product, but I think the bugs have become resistant. The Garden Tech Sevin has proven to be quite effective. I point out Garden Tech as they are the only Liquid Sevin product I've found that has changed away from carbaryl. I've also added an Ortho product as an alternative to rotate in just to keep the bugs guessing. I've also tried Serenade this season and the jury is still out on it's effectiveness. I think if you lengthen the interval between sprays, it's benefit may become more noticeable. Since this has been a wet season and I live on fungus acres, I haven't given it a chance. I put all of this info out so folks can see how I've adapted to improve vine health and production.


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## Dennis Griffith

I'm increasing my fence perimeter in order to accommodate next years new vines. I'll be trying out a new variety (for me) called Sheridan. I use different vines intermixed due to the America variety being partially self fertile. This is a recommended practice for this variety. I finished setting all the new corners (pics included), so now all I need now is drive so metal posts in and stretch more fence. Any volunteers?


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> I adjusted my spray schedule this year by adding 2 new pesticides and an additional fungicide. I had been using a carbaryl based product, but I think the bugs have become resistant. The Garden Tech Sevin has proven to be quite effective. I point out Garden Tech as they are the only Liquid Sevin product I've found that has changed away from carbaryl. I've also added an Ortho product as an alternative to rotate in just to keep the bugs guessing. I've also tried Serenade this season and the jury is still out on it's effectiveness. I think if you lengthen the interval between sprays, it's benefit may become more noticeable. Since this has been a wet season and I live on fungus acres, I haven't given it a chance. I put all of this info out so folks can see how I've adapted to improve vine health and production.


I spoke to several guys at well known wineries and manufacturers of the sprays and was told that due to the way that most of the sprays work by literally just contact killing or disrupting aabugs body when they eat it. It's impossible to build any resistance.


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## Masbustelo

Dennis Griffith I wish I was closer.


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## CK55

Dennis Griffith said:


> I'm increasing my fence perimeter in order to accommodate next years new vines. I'll be trying out a new variety (for me) called Sheridan. I use different vines intermixed due to the America variety being partially self fertile. This is a recommended practice for this variety. I finished setting all the new corners (pics included), so now all I need now is drive so metal posts in and stretch more fence. Any volunteers?
> 
> View attachment 51088
> View attachment 51089


I checked and it stated that sheridan is a concord type grape from new york first bred and released in 1921 and that it makes a good red wine and a decent rose type wine.


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## Bobp

We planted based on what has been proven to grow/survive/produce in this area and has the ability to be versital, used for single variety wine, blending, ect And for fresh table use...
We have 50 of each.
Marrs
Niagra
Cynthiana
Catawba
Sunbelts


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## CK55

Bobp said:


> We planted based on what has been proven to grow/survive/produce in this area and has the ability to be versital, used for single variety wine, blending, ect And for fresh table use...
> We have 50 of each.
> Marrs
> Niagra
> Cynthiana
> Catawba
> Sunbelts


And how have they been growing? Cynthiana is also Norton. A great grape really. I have not heard of a couple of the others.


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## Bobp

So far so good. Ive played with them innthe past...i like their wine...and it seems to make a good on its own or a blended product....time will tell
I didn't get them to the wire, as ive not gotbthe trellising up yet....but im working on it.

We got some of the pipe posts in.


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## CK55

Bobp said:


> So far so good. Ive played with them innthe past...i like their wine...and it seems to make a good on its own or a blended product....time will tell
> I didn't get them to the wire, as ive not gotbthe trellising up yet....but im working on it.
> 
> We got some of the pipe posts in.


What Trellis are you going for? VSP? I Have a VSP system for all of my grapes, Its really nice I installed a drip system for watering all my grapes and its on a timer for 2x a week. I basically just have to prune and check for bugs and spray my grapes, I don't have to worry about watering them.


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## Bobp

Im leaning towards something very similar...the High Cordon system..... Or the 2 wire vsp?


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## CK55

Bobp said:


> Im leaning towards something very similar...the High Cordon system..... Or the 2 wire vsp?


Mine does not have all it's wires installed yet I think if I remember it's a 6 or 7 wire system. High cordon is a good system as well. But I went VSP to encourage the best yields I could while keeping the grapes of a high quality.


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## Newine

Northeast Nebraska
25 Noiret
25 Foch
25 Frontenac
25 Seyval Blanc
All 6 yrs this year
25 Chardonel planted this year
25 Itasca and 25 Petite Pearl ordered to plant next spring.


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## CK55

Newine said:


> Northeast Nebraska
> 25 Noiret
> 25 Foch
> 25 Frontenac
> 25 Seyval Blanc
> All 6 yrs this year
> 25 Chardonel planted this year
> 25 Itasca and 25 Petite Pearl ordered to plant next spring.


Nice, How are the yields on those 6 year old vines? I have a couple more vines coming next spring. And a few to replace about 4 that just up and didnt end up taking off.


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## Newine

CK55 said:


> Nice, How are the yields on those 6 year old vines? I have a couple more vines coming next spring. And a few to replace about 4 that just up and didnt end up taking off.


Suffered a little setback on the Seyval and Noiret from winter damage but all told picked just under 700 lbs from the 6 year olds. Did a lot of cluster thinning and the quality was good.


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## CK55

Newine said:


> Suffered a little setback on the Seyval and Noiret from winter damage but all told picked just under 700 lbs from the 6 year olds. Did a lot of cluster thinning and the quality was good.


Nice, that sounds really good. I am looking forward to my grapes getting to a harvest point im looking at somewhere between 2-3 tons of grapes once i get my next plantings in. The grapes that are going to start producing first will be about 1.5 tons.


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## Dennis Griffith

BigH said:


> *Reds*
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Marquette : GDC
> Frontenac: GDC
> St Croix: GDC
> Petite Pearl : TWC
> Verona : TWC (planted this year. Replaced Foch)
> 
> *Whites*
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Edelwiess : GDC
> Brianna: GDC
> Frontenac Blanc: GDC
> La Crescent : TWC
> La Crosse : TWC (formerly on VSP)
> The why was mostly dictated by finding grapes that are cold hardy in zone 5 and the research I did 5 years ago .... in depth research like purchasing and consuming vast quantities of wine from local wineries.
> 
> H



What Zone are you in? I want to investigate new varieties, but don't want to waste my time on Zone 7 and warmer varieties.


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## Joe B.

50 Syrah - 1103P
50 Barbera-110R
25 Zin- St. George
20 Zin OV Cuttings- Own Root
25 Grenache - 101-14
20 Grenache OV Cuttings- Own Root


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## CK55

Nice list, although generally unless you have Sandy soil own root vinifera is strongly discouraged. 

Did your Grenache on 101-14 seem sluggish first year compared to all your other vines?

I noticed my grapes on 101-14 are much slower.


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## Joe B.

CK55 said:


> Nice list, although generally unless you have Sandy soil own root vinifera is strongly discouraged.
> 
> Did your Grenache on 101-14 seem sluggish first year compared to all your other vines?
> 
> I noticed my grapes on 101-14 are much slower.


If I was doing this for a living I wouldn't risk own rooted vines but I'm not. The 101-14 vines are less vigorous which is good in the case of Grenache but take a lot more water in a warm climate like the Sierra Foothills.


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## CK55

Joe B. said:


> If I was doing this for a living I wouldn't risk own rooted vines but I'm not. The 101-14 vines are less vigorous which is good in the case of Grenache but take a lot more water in a warm climate like the Sierra Foothills.


 You are not too far from me, but you are in a much warmer area. I put my Alicante Bouschet onto 101-14 for some control as it is well known to overcrop.


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## BigH

Dennis Griffith said:


> What Zone are you in?



I am in zone 5A : -20 to -15 degrees F. I thought about being more aggressive and growing Corot Noir, Vignoles, etc. but decided to go with hardier varieties. So far, I think that was the right choice. 2 of the past 5 years have seen winters that reached below -15.

H


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## CK55

BigH said:


> I am in zone 5A : -20 to -15 degrees F. I thought about being more aggressive and growing Corot Noir, Vignoles, etc. but decided to go with hardier varieties. So far, I think that was the right choice. 2 of the past 5 years have seen winters that reached below -15.
> 
> H


That is cold


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## VillaVino

Marquette, Sabrevios, Prairie Star, Brianna, some Lacresent that were accidentally mixed in with the Brianna and Louise Swenson. We live on the 44th parallel in western Wisconsin. I’ve literally seen -35F when driving to ref a hockey game on a Sunday morning. I’ve only lost vines to mice girdling.


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## Dennis Griffith

VillaVino said:


> Marquette, Sabrevios, Prairie Star, Brianna, some Lacresent that was accidentally mixed in with the Briana and Louise Swenson. We live on the 44th parallel in western Wisconsin. I’ve literally seen -35F when driving to ref a hockey game on a Sunday morning. I’ve only lost vines to mice girdling.



Definitely vines to consider as I expand my 'empire'. I'm in 6A, not as cold, but cold enough to take vines out. I've wasted time in past years trying to grow stuff that just wouldn't winter well. It more than just surviving the winter, they must survive it well enough to bear, not just spend the summer recovering from winter. Thanks for sharing.


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## Dennis Griffith

BigH said:


> I am in zone 5A : -20 to -15 degrees F. I thought about being more aggressive and growing Corot Noir, Vignoles, etc. but decided to go with hardier varieties. So far, I think that was the right choice. 2 of the past 5 years have seen winters that reached below -15.
> 
> H



Thanks, I've added some of your vines listed to my research list. I do reds and the only green grape I have is a Neptune seedless for the table.


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## VillaVino

I should say they are all on VSP except the LS. They are on TWC. I should have put them on VSP because no matter how hard I prune, they get too top heavy and they are difficult to spray on top and underneath. I’ve tried to switch to VSP but they refuse. Petite Pearle is looking very promising up here. I wish I could grow Chamborcin. Makes a good wine.


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## Dennis Griffith

VillaVino said:


> I should say they are all on VSP except the LS. They are on TWC. I should have put them on VSP because no matter how hard I prune, they get too top heavy and they are difficult to spray on top and underneath. I’ve tried to switch to VSP but they refuse. Petite Pearle is looking very promising up here. I wish I could grow Chamborcin. Makes a good wine.



Hmmm, on the Double A website, they recommend TWC for Marquette and Sabrevios. I suppose you can grow them anyway you want. How do they fruit for you? I can grow Chamborcin, but have selected more resistant varieties (so far). This year I'm delving into Cab Franc and would like to plant Marquette next year.


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## VillaVino

Dennis Griffith said:


> Hmmm, on the Double A website, they recommend TWC for Marquette and Sabrevios. I suppose you can grow them anyway you want. How do they fruit for you? I can grow Chamborcin, but have selected more resistant varieties (so far). This year I'm delving into Cab Franc and would like to plant Marquette next year.


Sab does just fine and is a pretty good producer of grapes. My Marquette vines grow like wild but produce only a fair amount of clusters. I hedge the heck out of them. I have to or the rows would grow into each other. I have 10’ row spacing. It makes a very good wine. Petite Pearl has reasonable TA at harvest I am told and have read. If I had another acre, I would plant them. I’m all maxed out at 3 acres.


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## Dennis Griffith

VillaVino said:


> Sab does just fine and is a pretty good producer of grapes. My Marquette vines grow like wild but produce only a fair amount of clusters. I hedge the heck out of them. I have to or the rows would grow into each other. I have 10’ row spacing. It makes a very good wine. Petite Pearl has reasonable TA at harvest I am told and have read. If I had another acre, I would plant them. I’m all maxed out at 3 acres.



I have about 20 acres to fill, or more if I get crazy and clear land.


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## VillaVino

Good luck. Being just a one man operation, I find that 3 acres is the limit to take care of effectively. I employ an Amish family to help prune, plant and harvest. I do the rest.


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## Dennis Griffith

Hopefully as I go along, I'll get more family involved. And I have plenty. I already have family lined up for harvest next year. As for the rest, I'm retired and this is my main endeavor right now (other than property maintenance and mowing).


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## Viktor Russia

Hello every one!

I look for Vidal Blanc to plant on my littel vineyard.
Who can sell vine with shipment to Russia? Unbelivebel question


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