# Wasting time and effort on being too clean...



## joea132 (Jan 7, 2012)

I have been reading alot lately about people being worried about cleanliness with their winemaking equipment. I see it turning into a neurosis amongst home wine makers today. From my personal opinion and my personal experiences, this is very much over-played and over-hyped amongst ourselves. Let me explain my OPINION...

When you have fresh juice or must or even an unfermented kit, you have an environment that is an excellent place to harbor microorganisms that could be harmful to your wine. This is the most vulnerable stage in a wine's life as it has no inherent protection against bad bugs. This is why we sulfite our must and use strong yeast to ferment down. This is when the cleanliness counts. Use sanitizer solution and spray your utensils and tools down before you punch down your cap or take samples.

Along the same lines when a wine has fermented and created alcohol, it now has a level of inherent protection from microorganisms. Alcohol by itself cannot harbor most microorganisms. Granted at the levels we have it is not high enough to counter against every kind of bug. But after you ferment and secondary ferment (should you choose to), you should be adding sulfites to hedge your bets and add another layer of protection on your investment. Bulk aging and clearing is not nearly as prone to bacterial infection as it was before fermentation. Most of the time when I rack my wine I simply rinse out the carboy if it appears to be clean with hot water and let it dry. I haven't had one single problem with infection at all. 

Even for bottling if I have new bottles I will only rinse them out for 5 seconds or so on the bottle washer with hot water. I have yet to have a bottle that was spoiled. My point is that people should not be losing sleep over sanitizing to a surgical level after fermentation. I can't say I recommend being a slob after fermentation and you may be the unlucky one that gets screwed but chances are you won't. I understand you spend alot of time and money on your wine endeavors as do I, and many of you will say you might as well have the best chance. This is absolutely true and you are right, but on the flip side it may not be as dangerous as it seems to not be surgical clean.

I guess my point is that wine making should be fun and easy going. You are making something that you are going to have fun with and the process itself is a blast! Relax, pour another glass of wine, eat something bad for you, and enjoy the process! Don't sweat the small stuff.

AGAIN THIS IS BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND IS MY OPINION!


----------



## joea132 (Jan 7, 2012)

C'mon this ought to stir the pot a bit. I bet we get 3 pages of argument!!!!
:: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 7, 2012)

Ahhhh Joe.. I agree with almost everything you do except bottle cleaning. You are _spending too much time and effort being too clean_(I think I heard that somewhere. The bottles are brand new and sterilized. I give them a quik meta rinse and then bottle. Most wineries don't pre-wash either unless if they have a automated bottling line that does it.


----------



## Wade E (Jan 7, 2012)

You have got to be kidding me!!! Get off my website now!!!! LOL Just kidding, I agree as we do do way more then need be but I just dont have the liberty of having a batch go bad. Things are very tight here and a 6 gallon batch gone south would be a catastrophe!


----------



## vacuumpumpman (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks Joe
You seem like you sanitize pretty well, except for the bottling part. I have well water which means no chlorine to kill off any bacteria that could be in the well or water lines. I like others are confused about the amounts of sulfite needed to be added to make a sanitizer ( the original meta says 2oz per gallon, 56 grams ) If I sanitize that with all my carboys and bottles - it will leave a coating left in those containers -causing my SO2 to spike , (possibly ruining the wine , my wife is sensitive to sulfites ) 
If I went with that - dropping the ph of water to wines ph it would be equal to 8523 PPM of sulfite. I can’t find what the SO2 would be without dropping the ph to a wine level. I will usually check my so2 prior to bottling ,but never once the wine has already been in the bottle.

thanks steve


----------



## rhoffart (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi I'm Rick ... I have a sanitizing problem. )


----------



## vacuumpumpman (Jan 7, 2012)

rhoffart said:


> Hi I'm Rick ... I have a sanitizing problem. )



Maybe I should go to an AA meeting and talk about my sanitizing problem ?

thanks steve


----------



## timber (Jan 8, 2012)

Was going to take my wine making equipment to the sanatorium but thought better of it and decided my spray bottle of Kmeta would do.
:<


----------



## joea132 (Jan 8, 2012)

I use a nuclear solution to spray on my equipment before fermentation. I pour in a ridiculous amount of sulfites into the spray bottle. No measurements but I rinse the hell out of everything afterwards.


----------



## Arne (Jan 8, 2012)

joea132 said:


> I use a nuclear solution to spray on my equipment before fermentation. I pour in a ridiculous amount of sulfites into the spray bottle. No measurements but I rinse the hell out of everything afterwards.



Joe, are your sure that you are not Mike(Ibeglowin) posting in disguise?? Lol, anyway, guess I kinda agree with you. I keep everything clean, use some sulfite solutions to help sanatize and keep on drinkin. Course, guess most of my wines do not last long enough to find out if they are gonna spoil. Take care, Arne.


----------



## Wade E (Jan 8, 2012)

Joe, why do you bother sanitizing with a nuclear solution in the beginning only to rinse after wards which IMO is like wasting youtr time as you may just be introducing bacteria all over again?


----------



## ibglowin (Jan 8, 2012)

I don't think my wine glows when I turn out the lights in the winery! I have to admit, this is one place you can be anal. I suppose that all it takes is one time that you lose a batch due to poor sanitizing practices will fix you up good for life. I always rinse tubes, and canes and carboys with lots of water after using them, then sanitize them with KMETA before use. 

Never had a problem so must be doing something right. I have to admit, I will grab my wine thief and just stick it in to a carboy for a sample every now and then w/o sanitizing it. I always rinse it well of course afterwards. 

Since I live in the desert southwest things dry very FAST in these parts, so not much time to have bugs growing in wet dark areas as they don't stay wet for very long.....


----------



## dangerdave (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm with the New Mexican ^^^

If one is good at following instructions, one can always make good wine. The only problem area can be in cleanliness and sanitation. I want _every_ possibility for my wine to turn out great. That means being anal in the one area that is responsible for 99% of all winemaking disasters.

Cleaned & Sanitized!!! Cleaned & Sanitized!!! Cleaned & Sanitized!!! Can I get an AMEN!


----------



## joea132 (Jan 8, 2012)

I completely respect that mentality but we are scaring our new winemakers into submission. I see more and more questions in here that stem from the uber cleanliness thing. What I'm trying to say is that they shouldn't be so terrified and intimidated.


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 8, 2012)

Joe I unerstand where you're coming from but if anyone is making beer I understand you have to be even more anal about sanitizing than with wine.

I walked in on Bueford this morning helping out...


----------



## Flem (Jan 8, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Ahhhh Joe.. I agree with almost everything you do except bottle cleaning. You are _spending too much time and effort being too clean_(I think I heard that somewhere. *The bottles are brand new and sterilized.* I give them a quik meta rinse and then bottle. Most wineries don't pre-wash either unless if they have a automated bottling line that does it.



Actually, most newly manufactured bottles are not cleaned and sterilized. They're immediately boxed after coming off the production line. Just an FYI.


----------



## Wade E (Jan 8, 2012)

Beer is much worse and sanitizing is much more needed as the ph and at are not like wine and vert favorable for microbes to become a nice sweet home for them. That why its very important to make a good yeast starter to get fermentation going as strong as possible as fast as possible.


----------



## joea132 (Jan 8, 2012)

What I find funny is that when I've made beer I only used B Brite and rinsed the heck out of it. I've done a good 7 or 8 batches and never had a problem. But I definitely agree about needing more sanitation for beer.


----------



## Putterrr (Jan 9, 2012)

I use chloriclean (pink powder) for cleaning and k-meta for rinsing everything before it is used. I dont rinse off the k-meta. I use the same procedures for wine and beer. it works for me and is a simple process once you have a routine

now a bit more on what Joe says about being to clean

a friend of mine has been making around 20-24 premium wine kits every year for at least 20 years. he only uses chloriclean and hot water. he wouldn't even know what k-meta is. he also never uses a hydrometer and just racks to other carboys when ever he gets around to it. he has never had any problems. go figure. so he is either very lucky or its harder to screw up than you think

cheers


----------



## Dugger (Jan 9, 2012)

Putterrr said:


> ...a friend of mine has been making around 20-24 premium wine kits every year for at least 20 years...



He must be a supplier to NSLC?? or perhaps a little bootlegging?? Man, that's a lot of wine!!


----------



## Putterrr (Jan 9, 2012)

Tell me about it. he had carpel tunnel surgery on both hands (one end of november and second 2 weeks later) and i have been recruited as strong man. add to all his wine are 3 kits he is making for a friend. i am practically living over there. at least there is always a glass to sip on

cheers


----------



## mmadmikes1 (Jan 9, 2012)

Flem said:


> Actually, most newly manufactured bottles are not cleaned and sterilized. They're immediately boxed after coming off the production line. Just an FYI.


They are made out of VERY hot molten glass, I am sure all the bugs are DEAD


----------



## Runningwolf (Jan 9, 2012)

joea132 said:


> C'mon this ought to stir the pot a bit. I bet we get 3 pages of argument!!!!
> :: :: :: :: :: :: :: :: ::



*You*




*you!*


----------



## Flem (Jan 9, 2012)

mmadmikes1 said:


> They are made out of VERY hot molten glass, I am sure all the bugs are DEAD



Yup! I know how they're made and yes, the bugs are dead. However, after they're made, they are still exposed to airborne contaminants such as grease and oil. I'm just saying that I'd never put wine in new bottles without first washing them.


----------



## mmadmikes1 (Jan 10, 2012)

Flem said:


> Yup! I know how they're made and yes, the bugs are dead. However, after they're made, they are still exposed to airborne contaminants such as grease and oil. I'm just saying that I'd never put wine in new bottles without first washing them.



Hell I have never put wine in a new bottle. I have a nice Italian restaurant and a winery that let be dumpster dive for bottles. I wash and sterilize all of mine.
I was preatty sure you know how bottles were made, I was being a smart @$$


----------



## Flem (Jan 10, 2012)

mmadmikes1 said:


> Hell I have never put wine in a new bottle. I have a nice Italian restaurant and a winery that let be dumpster dive for bottles. I wash and sterilize all of mine.
> I was preatty sure you know how bottles were made, *I was being a smart @$$*




I know your were!!


----------



## jswordy (Jan 13, 2012)

Well, I'm not uber-experienced at it so maybe I shouldn't even post here, but I just make sure everything touches a no-wash cleaner/sterilant before the must/wine touches it, including my corks and hands. I am not super-anal about timing the contact and stuff like some folks I know are, and I don't keep corks in a cork safe. This may not be correct, but I've had no problems so far. I would suppose that if I were to age my bottled wine longer than 1 year, I would have to step it up a bit more.

I am contemplating going to a synthetic cork in the future for several reasons, one being ease of sanitation.

Making wine in the 1950s and '60s, all my grandpa had were chlorine bleach and boiling water, and he did fine enough to fill a few 30-gallon barrels every year. I feel fortunate to have a wider chemical arsenal than he did.


----------



## robie (Jan 13, 2012)

All it takes is one nice batch being ruined to understand the reasoning for good sanitation.

I sanitize everything that touches my wine. I even sanitize something like a spoon or drill stirrer when I go from one carboy to the next, even if two carboys are from the same batch. If that is overkill, then so be it. I feel pretty good about it. I know there is no guaranty, but I am less likely to ever have any contamination that way.

Just do what you are comfortable with. If it works for you, don't be concerned about how others approach it.

Yep, I know, in old Italy, they didn't have any of the modern sanitizers and they got by just fine. Maybe they never had a single contamination incident. But you can say their changes for having contamination were many times greater than those who, based on modern technique and chemicals, do it "by the book".

I will say this to jswordy. It is good that you are going to synthetic corks, if you still are using chlorine based cleaners. It has been proven scientifically that using chlorine around corks can cause cork taint, which can ruin a nice bottle of wine. The true synthetics I don't believe are subject to cork taint.


----------



## BobF (Jan 13, 2012)

I was going to ignore this thread ... but ...

I spend a lot of time planting, growing, tending, searching in the wild, picking, preparing, etc. Or maybe I spend $$ buying grapes of a certain variety or fruit/juice of a particular type.

I prepare the must, test acidity, sugar levels, adjust, nuture, rack, adjust ... test and adjust some more.

In the grand scheme, spritzing sanitizer on tools to make sure everything is sanatized is such a small % of the total time spent ... not to mention the wasted effort/$$ if the bugs take over ...

No thanks, I think I'll keep cleaning and sanatizing. If I want to save time, I'll hire somebody to do some of the stuff that takes way more time to do than spritzing my gear with a bit of kmeta/citric before I use it.

Seriously? Sanatizing is where you're gonna' draw the line on time invested?

Do a Time-In-Motion on the process from beginning to end and I'm sure you'll find better places to focus on saving time/effort.


----------



## milbrosa (Jan 14, 2012)

Bob, and others who spritz sanitizer on equipment... what are you spritzing, and how long do you let it sit before using it? 

I'm just curious what others do. Here is my routine:

I don't like metabisulfite because of the odor and respiratory bite, but I will use it when I don't have to stick my nose in it. I use it mainly to fume sanitize corks, the filters on my Buon Vino Superjet, and sometimes to sanitize bottles (with a vinator). 

If I have a fair amount of activity lined up, like stirring wines in primary and checking gravity, or sanitizing carboys or primary fermenting vessels (trash cans), or airlocks and bungs, or auto-siphons and racking canes and tubing, I'll mix up a couple gallons of Iodophor and use that. I submerge equipment in the Iodophor for 2 minutes, then shake off excess liquid and use the equipment, then rinse it and put it back in the Iodophor for the next use. I seldom leave anything in Iodopho for more than five minutes though, as it stains and discolors. If it's a carboy or fermenter, I slosh it about every minute or so to rewet all surfaces for about 10 minutes. I discard the Iodophor when I'm done using it, as it doesn't keep well.

I keep Star San in a spray bottle. I use it for quick spritz jobs on testing and stirring equipment when I don't want to mix up a couple gallons of Iodophor. I wait a couple minutes before shaking off excess Star San and using the equipment. Because it sticks pretty good to the plastic of my primaries and stays wet for long enough to do the job, it is my preferred "spray on" sanitizer for plastic primaries. I don't like it for carboys because of the hideous foam (which I'm not afraid of, just don't care for it).


----------



## BobF (Jan 15, 2012)

milbrosa said:


> Bob, and others who spritz sanitizer on equipment... what are you spritzing, and how long do you let it sit before using it?
> 
> I'm just curious what others do. Here is my routine:
> 
> I don't like metabisulfite because of the odor and respiratory bite, but I will use it when I don't have to stick my nose in it ...


 
I use kmeta/citric. I spray what I'll be using next and leave it for a minute or two while I do something else. Shake off the excess and have it!


----------



## jswordy (Jan 16, 2012)

robie said:


> I will say this to jswordy. It is good that you are going to synthetic corks, if you still are using chlorine based cleaners. It has been proven scientifically that using chlorine around corks can cause cork taint, which can ruin a nice bottle of wine. The true synthetics I don't believe are subject to cork taint.



Like I say, I'm not expert. I use a k meta wash on the corks. I think a lot of it has to do with time in a bottle. If I were planning to cellar my wine longer than a year (most makes it 6 months or less), and if it were not kept at a constant 55-60 degrees in a thermostatically controlled cooler, I'd be evermore cautious. 

My grandpa had to develop a very specific way of going about making his wine because he was limited in his arsenal. That was the comparison I was drawing. 

I have friends who still successfully make wine without using anything but Chlorox and boiling water. They are scared of "the chemical brew." And I have seen people who leave their carboys dirty after siphoning so long that green stuff grows in them. That doesn't mean I want to do it that way.

Somewhere along that fear vs. benefit line, there's a happy medium for every winemaker, don't you think?


----------



## robie (Jan 16, 2012)

jswordy said:


> Somewhere along that fear vs. benefit line, there's a happy medium for every winemaker, don't you think?




I agree. We are all different with very different experiences.


----------



## twistedvine (Jan 16, 2012)

Wade E said:


> You have got to be kidding me!!! Get off my website now!!!! LOL Just kidding, I agree as we do do way more then need be but I just dont have the liberty of having a batch go bad. Things are very tight here and a 6 gallon batch gone south would be a catastrophe!



You said do do...


----------



## jswordy (Jan 17, 2012)

This is a pic of primary fermentation at an 85,000 case a year winery. I think it is illustrative of many things in this discussion.






My cork supplier actually says there is no need to do anything to the corks before they are used, as long as they come from the sealed cork bag. Here, I err on the side of caution.


----------

