# Used bottles -- this is ridiculous



## jswordy (Mar 1, 2012)

I live in Tennessee but work in Alabama. Couple days ago I put out an inquiry online to Alabama for used bottles from restaurants. Today, I have been told in a reply from a restaurant owner not to bother! It is illegal in Alabama for a bar or restaurant to give anyone their empties of any kind, and they are legally required to smash the bottles when disposing of them, or they could face closure or heavy fines.

I sought help from Alabama cuz that's where the big city is. Guess I'll try the Tennessee side and see if I can collect enough from a small town instead. Unless I find out it is illegal there, too! Geez.

What are the rules where you live?


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## g8keeper (Mar 1, 2012)

jswordy said:


> I live in Tennessee but work in Alabama. Couple days ago I put out an inquiry online to Alabama for used bottles from restaurants. Today, I have been told in a reply from a restaurant owner not to bother! It is illegal in Alabama for a bar or restaurant to give anyone their empties of any kind, and they are legally required to smash the bottles when disposing of them, or they could face closure or heavy fines.
> 
> I sought help from Alabama cuz that's where the big city is. Guess I'll try the Tennessee side and see if I can collect enough from a small town instead. Unless I find out it is illegal there, too! Geez.
> 
> What are the rules where you live?


 
that is messed up for sure....i don't think there are any laws against it here....they must not realize that by you taking them, you are actually helping the environment by recycling, not that i am a "green" person, but i am just saying that by recycling their empties, it's more "trash" you are helping to keep out of the landfills....what a crock, and what a waste...


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## grapeman (Mar 1, 2012)

It is illegal for a winery to reuse bottles, but I know of no law that requires them to be smashed. Many restaurants around the country will give them to home winemakers.


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## robie (Mar 1, 2012)

Sounds like a desperate attempt to subdue the producing of any kind of home made alcoholic drink, even wine. If I remember, it is, or at least used to be illegal to make your own wine at home in that state.


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## g8keeper (Mar 1, 2012)

robie said:


> Sounds like a desperate attempt to subdue the producing of any kind of home made alcoholic drink, even wine. If I remember, it is, or at least used to be illegal to make your own wine at home in that state.


 
well until about the mid 70's, it was illegal in every state....that was until carter signed the bill making it legal.....


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## jswordy (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm not a winery, I'm a hobbyist. If I were a winery I would not even think of used bottles for the product.

In Alabama and many other Southern states, wine and liquor are considered cousins the same way wine and beer are considered cousins in other states. The wine/beer connection is the more relaxed. Wine/liquor states are tougher.

The bottle smashing law is supposedly to prevent liquor bottles from being refilled with cheap booze for sale by the shot or drink as the high-priced stuff. Since wine is liquor's cousin here, wine bottles are also covered. But not beer bottles.

The state ABC checks all wine and liquor in AND OUT of any bar, etc., to make sure what you say you buy is what is served. They keep tabs on smashed bottles, too. If the in and out tally does not balance, you get fined or closed. If you do not smash your bottles, you get fined or closed. That is what I have been told by the owner of a big place here.

You are correct Robie, it is illegal to homebrew or make wine as a hobby in Alabama. Not enforced much.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 1, 2012)

Just for the Heck of it ask around to other establisments and see if they say the same thing. That smashing bit may be a company policy and the employee thinks it's state law. I never heard of that before and thinks it's a bit much. Wht would a state put employees in a dangerous position of smashing bottles. I believe you and that you were told this, I just have my doubts. If it is true, I think it's BS as I just mentioned, what about the dangers and mess of broken glass and shards.


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## ibglowin (Mar 1, 2012)

Man that is wack for sure.......


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## Jonjunk (Mar 1, 2012)

A tip on getting used bottles.
We have a community "Festival of the Vine" as an annual event.
A visit late in the day and a few friendly words to the people at the tasting tables gets us all the empties we can haul away.We've even had them load cases of them onto our truck.


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## Wade E (Mar 1, 2012)

Wow, that really blows for you!!! I have wineries save me bottles around here or just give them to me if I sho up and ask them.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 1, 2012)

Thats what I do also Wade. I usually have a minimum of 50 cases ready to go and right now I even have about 25 cases of ice wine bottles.


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## Rocky (Mar 1, 2012)

g8keeper said:


> well until about the mid 70's, it was illegal in every state....that was until carter signed the bill making it legal.....



Ken, I think you may have this wrong. My understanding is that the Volstead Act (18th Amendment) prohibited the manufacture of all alcoholic beverages. Then shortly after it went into effect, it was amended to allow home wine making of up to 200 gallons per year per household. The 21st Amendment repealed Prohibition and made wine making fully legal. What Carter did in 1978 was make beer making at home tax exempt. I am sure that the Statute of Limiations has run out on my family, but I don't ever remember paying any taxes on making wine. 

Whether residents are allowed to make wine at home is up to the individual states and Alabama, Utah and Idaho have the most restrictive laws.


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## g8keeper (Mar 2, 2012)

Rocky said:


> Ken, I think you may have this wrong. My understanding is that the Volstead Act (18th Amendment) prohibited the manufacture of all alcoholic beverages. Then shortly after it went into effect, it was amended to allow home wine making of up to 200 gallons per year per household. The 21st Amendment repealed Prohibition and made wine making fully legal. What Carter did in 1978 was make beer making at home tax exempt. I am sure that the Statute of Limiations has run out on my family, but I don't ever remember paying any taxes on making wine.
> 
> Whether residents are allowed to make wine at home is up to the individual states and Alabama, Utah and Idaho have the most restrictive laws.


 
ok....actually we are both right...wine making was legal all along after prohibition was repealed, but beer making at home was not, that is of course til 1979....it wasn't that he just made it "tax exempt"....he actually did legalize it...and as for the prohibition of of homebrewing in the afore mentioned states, the law actually exists to stop the, production of, "hard liquor" at home, but because the laws are so vague, and unclear, they are open wide to interpretation, and therefore home wine and beer making unfortuinately are often included...


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## dangerdave (Mar 2, 2012)

Home wine making is protected by the US Constitution. Up to 200 gallons a year!


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## jswordy (Mar 2, 2012)

In Alabama, the applicable law governing illegal manufacture of alcoholic beverages is Ala. Code 28-1-1, and it does NOT make exception for homemade beer or wine, so all home fermentation of alcoholic beverages is illegal in the state. Under U.S. law, the states can regulate themselves if they so choose when it comes to the production of alcohol.

The person I was speaking with about destruction of bottles owns the 3 largest bars/restaurants in the area. He categorically said he would not save wine bottles for me, nor would he allow employees to do so, and that any businessowner who did so was running a huge risk of being shut down. 

I pointed out that one biz was actually advertising used bottles on CL (they are screw top, so I can't use them...they want 50 cents each!). He said if the Ala. ABC finds that out, they will be fined and could be closed. State law does not even allow them to save empties on their premises.

Oh well, I will look elsewhere. I actually live in Tennessee, on the border, so I will see if I can get a place there to save me some.


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## g8keeper (Mar 2, 2012)

dave, jswordy is correct....you are also correct that it is protected by the federal government, BUT, the states, individually, have the right to intervene, and nullify that right if they deem it suitable to do so....but like i stated earlier, js, the law doesn't "directly" ban wine and beer making....it was done to actually ban the "refining", so to speak of alcoholic beverages, since this site will not allow a certain term, but because the law IS so broad, and general, it winds up banning wine and beer production at home...


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## jswordy (Mar 2, 2012)

Guy I'm talking to tells me in an email this morning that he had just recently been fined $500 because one of the bartenders didn't break the neck off of ONE yager bottle when he threw it in the trash. 

The states can regulate their own citizens when it comes to production of alcohol. That's why we have a patchwork in which I can't write certain words on this site or discuss certain things because of where the server is located. I have already long ago had this discussion with an AL state trooper on homebrew and winemaking. His reply to every question: "It's illegal." No exceptions.


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## almargita (Mar 2, 2012)

Glad I don't live anywhere near Alabama!!

AL


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## g8keeper (Mar 2, 2012)

jswordy said:


> Guy I'm talking to tells me in an email this morning that he had just recently been fined $500 because one of the bartenders didn't break the neck off of ONE yager bottle when he threw it in the trash.
> 
> The states can regulate their own citizens when it comes to production of alcohol. That's why we have a patchwork in which I can't write certain words on this site or discuss certain things because of where the server is located. I have already long ago had this discussion with an AL state trooper on homebrew and winemaking. His reply to every question: "It's illegal." No exceptions.


 js, i'm not doubting you....i agree with you that alabama outlaws it....lol...i'm just saying they can do it because the law is so vaguely written is all....yes, they are prohibiting the home production of all alcoholic beverages....granted, i agree it's a load of crap, but unfortunately you can't fight city hall....lol....just be thankful you don't live there, just close to the border....lol..


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## Minnesotamaker (Mar 2, 2012)

So does this mean that when you make wine at home, you'll have to break your own bottles afterwards?


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## BobF (Mar 2, 2012)

Missouri is the opposite - The state laws make no distrinctions between wine/hard liquor, but it is all legal according to the state.

That probably won't get you a pass from the feds though



jswordy said:


> In Alabama, the applicable law governing illegal manufacture of alcoholic beverages is Ala. Code 28-1-1, and it does NOT make exception for homemade beer or wine, so all home fermentation of alcoholic beverages is illegal in the state. Under U.S. law, the states can regulate themselves if they so choose when it comes to the production of alcohol.
> 
> The person I was speaking with about destruction of bottles owns the 3 largest bars/restaurants in the area. He categorically said he would not save wine bottles for me, nor would he allow employees to do so, and that any businessowner who did so was running a huge risk of being shut down.
> 
> ...


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## Ernest T Bass (Mar 2, 2012)

As far as I know it is legal in Tennessee, at least I have never had a problem getting them. Find a "Sports Bar" and ask them, another way is to find a wine store that has a tasting bar and see if they will save the bottles for you. If you can find a recycling center near you thats' all you will need, you can get more bottles their than you can anywhere else, more than you'll ever need. I pretty much cull them out now and only get the 3 litre and 4 litre and 750 ml now. I got 4 this week that I had never seen before, they are about 4 or 5 inches tall and probably hold 5 or 6 oz's - real cute. Hope this helps.
Semper Fi


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## jswordy (Mar 3, 2012)

Minnesotamaker said:


> So does this mean that when you make wine at home, you'll have to break your own bottles afterwards?



No, the Alcoholic Beverage Commission (ABC) only governs its license holders, which are places of business like bars and restaurants. In fact, in most Southern states, you can't have a tavern. Your primary biz must be food sales in order to sell alcohol.


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## jswordy (Mar 3, 2012)

Bud said:


> As far as I know it is legal in Tennessee, at least I have never had a problem getting them. Find a "Sports Bar" and ask them, another way is to find a wine store that has a tasting bar and see if they will save the bottles for you. If you can find a recycling center near you thats' all you will need, you can get more bottles their than you can anywhere else, more than you'll ever need. I pretty much cull them out now and only get the 3 litre and 4 litre and 750 ml now. I got 4 this week that I had never seen before, they are about 4 or 5 inches tall and probably hold 5 or 6 oz's - real cute. Hope this helps.
> Semper Fi



Our local recycling center is very possessive about the stuff that goes in there. VERY! They will not allow rummaging. I'm going to talk around town and see what I can arrange.


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## SarahRides (Mar 3, 2012)

Not too many restaurants have been a big help for me either. Most of them have told me they just smash them in a bin. When I've asked or called, they always tell me to e-mail the owner. I've e-mailed about a dozen places and haven't heard back from a single one of them. I've mostly been relying on grabbing them cheap when I see them on craigslist, or just collecting from friends and family. (I get a lot of my own bottles back again too)


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## jswordy (Mar 4, 2012)

Found out from a local barkeep the law is the same in Tennessee - you are supposed to smash them. But he says they don't always get destroyed when pitched. Says it is illegal in TN for him to save them for me or give them to me, "but they all wind up in the Dumpster." So that was an invitation to Dumpster dive, but boy is that a smelly task at a restaurant.

I did find a nice recycling center guy. I said, "Can I ask you something? I make wine and... "

I didn't get to finish. He stuck his hand out and said, "Take all you want." That resulted in a haul of about 40.

Then we visited Monteagle Winery yeasterday, and I asked there. They sell their bottles emptied from sampling for $5 a case (this seems to be common practice at TN wineries), so I bought 5 cases of mixed bottles there.

This gets me out of immediate need for now, and if the recycling place will continue to let me pick them, I should be fine. Like Sarah, I always ask for my bottles back, but I don't always get them back. 

Sure did learn a lot in the decision to ramp production up. I could keep up with 5 gallon batches from friends and my own bottles, but moving to 10s and 15s makes the bottle need increase a lot. Now to process all these bottles - and hope for more!


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## TwinMaples (Mar 4, 2012)

jswordy said:


> I live in Tennessee but work in Alabama. Couple days ago I put out an inquiry online to Alabama for used bottles from restaurants. Today, I have been told in a reply from a restaurant owner not to bother! It is illegal in Alabama for a bar or restaurant to give anyone their empties of any kind, and they are legally required to smash the bottles when disposing of them, or they could face closure or heavy fines.



I grew up in Iowa, and bars used to have a similar rule. Maybe they still do. I don't know if it was all bottles, whiskey, wine, or whatever, but they had that rule. As I recall, the rule was in force to keep someone from some "creative repackaging", and selling something fake with a brand name label on it.

In today's green world of recycling, full landfills home winemakers, and probably less moonshine being sold (prohibition is over, after all ), it seems like a silly rule today.

Jim


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## mangojack (Mar 4, 2012)

where i live some places will give the bottles to me and other places wont,


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## REDBOATNY (Mar 4, 2012)

If you have wineries in the area, you probably have a bottle wholesaler too. I can buy new bottles from the same place as the local wineries do for about $10/ case with new cardboard. No scrubbing and I can choose style and color. Ask at the winery.


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## Runningwolf (Mar 4, 2012)

REDBOATNY said:


> If you have wineries in the area, you probably have a bottle wholesaler too. I can buy new bottles from the same place as the local wineries do for about $10/ case with new cardboard. No scrubbing and I can choose style and color. Ask at the winery.



Are you talking about Waterloo? I can tell you I live in the Lake Erie wine region and there is nothing between Cleveland and Buffalo. Most of the bottles come out of Waterloo up by the Finger Lakes.


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## REDBOATNY (Mar 4, 2012)

Yes Dan, Waterloo Container. I guess I am fortunate to have them in the area and my brother lives 5 miles from them and delivers to my doorstep.


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## jswordy (Mar 5, 2012)

REDBOATNY said:


> If you have wineries in the area, you probably have a bottle wholesaler too. I can buy new bottles from the same place as the local wineries do for about $10/ case with new cardboard. No scrubbing and I can choose style and color. Ask at the winery.



You are very lucky. Retail new 750 ml bottles here are $19 a case and the place that sold them has been closed for a month.


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## jct (Apr 29, 2012)

*alabama winemaking*

Its not that bad here in alabama. We have legit wine supply stores were we pay taxes on aupplies to make what your claiming is illegal. There are restrictions,but only what you have on hand. What you drink vs what you have on hand should balance out. Its not like its monitored,you can even give away gifts,just dont do it for profit.


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## Neviawen (Apr 29, 2012)

I went to an Italian restaurant here in NJ and asked to speak with the manager. I told the guy my deal, that I make wine at home but needed bottles and he had all the waitresses/waiters save the bottles for a whole week for me. When I returned the next weekend I had 10 cases of bottles waiting to be picked up! A few of the guys from the kitchen even loaded them up in my truck for me. (I guess being a girl helps alot. ) I sent a few bottles of wine and a thank you note afterwards so that they remember me the next time I show up looking for more bottles.


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## olusteebus (Apr 30, 2012)

I have asked a bartender at a local mexican restaurant to save me corona bottles. He said he would. I am gonna go tell him to forget it. Don't want him to get in trouble.

Typical Alabama liquor laws. 

Oh well, I guess it is good that they attempt to legislate my morals.


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## jswordy (Apr 30, 2012)

I should follow up on this. I was able to work with my local recycler in Tennessee. For some reason, on Fridays and Saturdays, they get in a large supply of bottles from somewhere, and from that I so far have been able to help myself. As long as staff is onsight, the glass bins are out for sorting by color. So it has worked out well so far.


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## Bartman (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree that it is a goofy legal status in today's market, but I think these US laws came about shortly after Prohibition ended, because there was so much bootleg liquor during Prohibition that didn't get labeled at all (of course). Once we passed the 21st Amendment in 1933, there were a lot of backwoods stills producing cheap swill that could be sold for a lot more if they reused the bottles from the 'good stuff'. Obviously quality control, labeling requirements and product regulation became big issues pretty quick.

Refilling used bottles with lower quality wine is an old problem. There is still an occasional story about expensive French wine bottles having been refilled and resold after the original high-qulaity stuff was emptied. From Wikipedia:

At one such tasting, Rodenstock produced 125 vintages of Château d'Yquem, including a very rare bottle from the 1784 vintage. In addition to holding these extravagant tastings, Rodenstock also sold many bottles from his collection at auction houses, which supposedly regularly inspect and research wines for authenticity. One such lot that Rodenstock sold was the rare "Jefferson bottles", reportedly rare Bordeaux wines bottled for the American president, Thomas Jefferson. American businessman Bill Koch bought four of these Jefferson bottles which were later determined to be fake - the engravings on the bottle that purportedly linked them to Jefferson were determined to have been done with a high-speed electric drill similar to a dentist's drill; technology that did not exist until modern times. This revelation cast a net of suspicion on the authenticity of all the rare bottles that Rodenstock served at his tastings and sold at auctions.[15][16] In 2002, bottles of the weaker 1991 vintage of Château Lafite Rothschild were relabeled and sold as the acclaimed 1982 vintage in China. In 2000, Italian authorities uncovered a warehouse with nearly twenty thousand bottles of fake "Super Tuscan" 1995 Sassicaia and arrested a number of people including the group's salesperson, who was selling the fake wine out of the back of a Peugeot hatchback.[2]


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## donaltman3 (Apr 30, 2012)

*wine bottles*

I have several resturaunts that save bottles for me here in GEORGIA.. I pick them up about once a month... I have gotten so many I now ask them to only save me the green ones in the right shape. I probably have a few hundred in boxes in my storage shed.


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## missyh (Aug 12, 2012)

JS, You may not need this now, but you may be interested anyway. There is a place in Huntsville called Pearly Gates Natural Foods that sells used wine bottles for I think 20 cents each. They sell beer and wine making supplies and bulk herbs and food. This place has been in Huntsville for over 40 years and the lady who ran it passed away several months ago. It has been closed until recently while they sorted out legal stuff and now they are getting it back going and ordering supplies.


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## jswordy (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks, I know all about Pearly Gates. They have been closed for about 8 months and just recently opened up again with a minimal stock.

I found a great resource for free bottles at the Lincoln County recycling center, but they now are smashing them, so I reckon the ABC folks got on them about it. Anyway, I have about 300 now and probably could get more there if I time my arrival before they smash them. Thanks again.


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## missyh (Aug 14, 2012)

I am just getting started making wine. I will have to find the Lincoln County place---and catch them before they're smashed! good to touch base with a neighbor!


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## donaltman3 (Aug 15, 2012)

I can't believe your states is so repressive.. seems very odd to me... the whole break the bottles thing is dumb. I once visited a place that had to sell you liqour drinks in the air plane bottles... they would have the mixer made and you physically as a patron had to mix your own drink... what a bunch of hogwash.
Anyways...
If you guys are avid wine makers and drinkers why are bottles a problem.. just have your friends save their bottles for you that they drink throughout the year and give them to you.. likewise any wine bottles you hand out from your brew just ask they return them.. most people would gladly give you 10 or 12 old bottles for one filled up. 

Smashing your bottles is just plain wrong... what do the people making syrup or hot sauce use?
I can think of a ton of things to do with old bottles.. the same politicians probably spend great amount of time and money to manage our trash and they are requiring you to create more and not be resourceful...


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## jswordy (Aug 15, 2012)

The reason the ABC requires the bottles be smashed is it is so very easy for bars to sell "Gray Goose Vodka" that is really rotgut that has been poured into an empty Gray Goose bottle.

I have had friends save their cork bottles for me. They simply cannot save as fast as I have been making wine. When a typical batch is 70 to 125 bottles, I need a better source than simple generosity.

Missy, check the recycling center or dump at Pulaski. There has to be a place there where you may be able to get some bottles.


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## KatyDinkle (Aug 15, 2012)

It seems like so many people on this forum have no problems scoring bottles from wineries or restaurants. Hasn't been my experience! The local wineries say they don't want their labels ending up on homemade wine and the restaurants promise bottles but never come through. Thank goodness for heavy drinking neighbors and friends!


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## wineutopia (Aug 19, 2012)

Craigslist is the way I find the majority of my bottles.


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