# My Chilean Juice Adventures



## AbruzziRed (Apr 19, 2021)

I just started 3 Chilean juices and I want to share my experiences to help others and get feedback as well. 
This is my first big thread, I will update with progress and I would really appreciate any feedback you have on what I post.

Here is what I have:
Chilean Malbec juice 6 gallons:

picked up 4/16, 
started AF morning of 4/18, 
Fermenting at 70F+
yeast D254 (from this forum), 
Starting SG 1.091
Added 4 pounds of grape skins from musto 
starting PH 3.7?
4/19 PM SG 1.040 PH 3.28 Temp 74, did not do TA measurement
Chilean Sauvignon Blanc juice 6 gallons:

Picked up 4/16
started AF morning of 4/18
Fermenting in at 70F +
3 gallons with yeast D47 and 3 gallons with K1-V1116
Starting SG 1.091
PH 3.22?
4/19 PM SG 1.052 PH 3.35 Temp 70 for D47 Yeast, TA 4.8 g/L
4/19 PM SG 1.050 PH 3.23 Temp 74 for K1 yeast
Chilean Riesling juice 6 gallons:

Picked up 4/16
Started AF morning of 4/18
Trying to ferment at low temp of around 55. 
Yeast R2
Starting SG 1.1
PH 3.77
4/19 PM SG 1.092, Temp 58 TA 4.0 g/L, added 4.6 g of Fermaid-O
Observations/learnings:
- Don’t wait over a day to start AF. Plan ahead, I was busy this past weekend and didn’t get time to go and take measurements/start AF.
- This is my first time using the Vinmetrica SC-300 and I was a little concerned that my PM calibrations were about .05 about the target. (Target 4.01, actual 4.06...)
- Should I have put the grape skins in a the cloth bag? Would make it easier to pull samples and not have floaties.
- Debating to transfer to bulk at 1.0 or 1.01 SG
- I plan to oak the Malbec with a medium toast oak stick but when I did this in my Montepulciano for 3 months, I could not taste it. Maybe it needs to sit longer.
- MLF in the Malbec? Some say yes some say no. My goal? A dry wine, lower on acid, fruity, soft on palet, a little oak.


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## AbruzziRed (Apr 19, 2021)

Some pics from today that I could not add to the post due to iCloud sync issue


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## Ajmassa (Apr 20, 2021)

lookin good. 


- sounds like your meter calibrated correctly to me. read 4.05 initially. meter corrected itself to 4.01. no? new toy learning curves maybe?
- you could do a bag. but free floating just feels like ya get more extraction to me. probably doesn’t make a difference though. 
- def mlf. always
-oak sticks gonna give all they got in that time. so if anything just do another stick after and check occasionally to reach desired level
-i like to transfer reds fully dry and get max time on skins unless other variables force an early press


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## CDrew (Apr 20, 2021)

MLF will likely happen whether you want it or not, so I'd control that in the red wine. Add one of the well known strains like VP16 and let it rip.

You likely want the Riesling and SB to not undergo MLF, and you can prevent that with lysozyme when they finish fermentation.

I agree and like to transfer to the aging vessels when there is still some fermentation happening-like right at -0- Brix (SG 1.000). My theory is that is helps to purge out any O2 in the head space of the aging container. You will have to rack again in a few weeks anyway but it will get you off to a good start.

Regarding racking, you'll have to watch your new wine and see how much sediment you get. If the red in particular casts a significant sediment, you'll need to rack again after just a few days in bulk. THat will get the wine away from the grape skin bits that increase your risk of H2S. I would treat your red juice like a normal wine you have pressed, since you will have skin components in it regardless, and racking is the way to remove.

Regarding oak, shoot on the low side. You can always add more. I like oak as a subtle background flavor, not in your face.


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## AbruzziRed (Apr 20, 2021)

@Ajmassa and @CDrew thanks for the feedback.

@CDrew, my bulk aging room holds a temp of 55F so if I transfer at 1.0 and start MFL, I think it will take a long time to complete, what do you think? I have a few reds from Fall of 2020 that I racked to the car boys at 1.0ish and they are still hanging at 1.0 and too sweet for my liking (Montepulciano and Sangiovese). I have CH16, will that work and should I keep the wine at 65-70?

For the whites, can’t I stop MLF with Kmeta addition at racking?


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## AbruzziRed (Apr 20, 2021)

Second update, Day 3.

I am stirring every morning and night with SG measurement at night. Here are the stats:

Riesling

Ferment temp 54F
SG 1.078
taste sweet and smooth

Sauvignon Blanc D47 Yeast

Ferment temp 63
SG 1.030
Sauvignon Blanc K1-V1116

Ferment temp 68
SG 1.020
Malbec

Ferment temp 68
SG 1.010
this is fermenting fast!
it’s cooking away

I turned off the the light bulb (heat source) to slow down the ferment, we will see how it progresses tomorrow.

Overall they all taste great and better at this stage then last years!


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## AbruzziRed (Apr 22, 2021)

Day 5

Malbec SG 1.001 temp 66, going to give it one more day then rack to carboy. First time with skins so this will be a great learning experience.

Sauvignon Blanc with D47, SG 1.004 with temp at 70. We will see how it does tomorrow.

Sauvignon Blanc with K1-V1116, SG 1.004 with temp 67.

interesting that K1 was in the lead until yesterday...

Riesling is at 1.040 at temp 60. I want this to be slow. Probably rack early next week.

All wines are tasting great. I have never did a side by side if different yeast before. Taste profiles different but great.

pics of racking will come in next post.


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## CDrew (Apr 22, 2021)

Sounds nice.

Theoretically, enough sulfite will inhibit MLF, but as the SO2 levels decline over time, you could still get a later fermentation. I had this happen in my Rose of Mourvedre in 2019. Literally 3 months after primary, and normal sulfite levels, and cool, around 62F, spontaneous MLF started up anyway. Ended up OK, that wine was pretty good.

I posted a pic of this here in post 14:





Saignee-Real time help


Today was Mourvedre day and wouldn't you know it, there was an extra 100 pounds give or take that needed a home. So I got my usual 300 and an extra hundred for Rose. So the grapes were very nice brix 25 off a hillside vineyard in Contra Costa County near Brentwood. My plan is to let the...




www.winemakingtalk.com





But glad to hear you're having some good success now with your fermentations!


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## MiBor (Apr 23, 2021)

My Chilean Sauvignon Blanc this year came in at pH 3.96, TA 0.4% and 23 brix. I thought maybe my pH meter has lost calibration in the 2 weeks I didn't use it, so I made fresh calibration solutions and found out that the meter was fine. Just to eliminate any possibility of error, I borrowed my neighbor's pH meter, calibrated it and measured the juice at 3.94. This is not the first time that my Chilean juice is out of balance. I believe they waited to harvest until the grapes had enough sugar and by that time a lot of the acid was gone. Or maybe the juice had too much sugar and they diluted it with just water/no tartaric acid. 

Last year I decided to never buy red Bello juice again and to limit the quantity of white wine that I make. It would be a much better choice for me to use California juice in the fall, but that's when I make red wine from grapes and that's a lot of work in itself. Making white wine in the spring is ideal for me, but the quality of the juice from Chile is a hit/miss kind of deal (with emphasis on the miss part). I've been looking around trying to find South African juice, but nobody in my area sells it. Maybe I can have it shipped directly to my house from one of the distributors, but I haven't found a cost effective source yet.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 23, 2021)

Chile has several growing zones. What I have seen with a few years of buckets that club orders from Chile is that the gravity and pH is high, TA low. ,,, don’t know which zone we source juice from.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 23, 2021)

My wife has suggested to me that we never purchase Chilean juice buckets again. Just haven't been impressed with the juice to start with and the wine later on. Particularly the whites, they always seem to be about the same SG and as noted above higher Ph than you really want in a white. I wish grapes were an option here in the MidWest, but the only source is extremely over priced, so we just sit out the spring winemaking.


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## AbruzziRed (Apr 29, 2021)

Thanks everyone for the feedback and conversations. It’s great to get a lot of data points from your experiences. I have been busy the past few days some updates are late. 

Day 7:
Overall, I can not seem to get any of the 3 juices to finish under SG 1.000. I used 2 different Hydrometers, temperature measurements and adjustments.
All measurements were done before degassing, yes I am still learning and next time will degas.

Malbec:

SG 1.00, PH 3.44, Free SO2 4ppm
Transferred to secondary off the grape skins, added ML slurry with CH16 and acti-ML.
Added medium toast French oak stick
Keeping temp at 70.
Stirring every few days
as of today 4/29, still not seeing any ML activity...
Sauvignon Blanc:

3 Gal with D47 Yeast
SG 1.000, PH 3.59, free SO2 6 ppm
added .6g meta to secondary
racked to secondary


3 Gal with K1-V1116 yeast
SG 1.000, PH 3.57, free SO2 8ppm
added .5g meta to secondary
racked to secondary.
Both are clearing very well at a temp of 55-58, thinking about warming them up to 65-70 to try to ferment down to .996/.998

Riesling:

SG 1.020, slow ferment at 60F, PH 3.20
as of 4/29, SG is 1.000, (1.005 on 4/26) so dropping slow, still stirring every day. 
I am debating on adding some more R2 yeast to try to get this to dry. I would like this Riesling dry, it has enough fruit forward flavors that I like. ?? Would you add a bit more yeast?
So I am debating on the yeast before racking to secondary. Or I rack to secondary with no Kmeta additions, keep warm at around 60 and let finish. Thoughts?


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## heatherd (Apr 29, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> My wife has suggested to me that we never purchase Chilean juice buckets again. Just haven't been impressed with the juice to start with and the wine later on. Particularly the whites, they always seem to be about the same SG and as noted above higher Ph than you really want in a white. I wish grapes were an option here in the MidWest, but the only source is extremely over priced, so we just sit out the spring winemaking.


@cmason1957 Have you tried frozen grape must from Brehm, Winegrapesdirect, or Musto? Or a grape pack from Mosti Mondiali? I have used those with a spring or fall juice bucket, or Walker's juice, or Australian juice from Presque Isle wine in the past with good results. I like that that the buckets from WGD, Musto, and Brehm are pH-balanced, TA-tested, and Brix tested. Some are more spendy than the others but still good options. The Mosti grape pack at $20 + shipping is a lot of bang for the buck, especially since I typically split between two batches of red juice.
WGD - Wine Grapes Direct 
Brehm - Brehm Vineyards - Fine Wine From Fine Grapes 
Musto - Frozen Must and Juice (juicegrape.com) 
All-grape pack - Natural Grapes for Winemaking (juicegrape.com) 
Walker - - Walker's Wine Juice, LLC 
PIwine - Order Your Fresh Australian Juice Pails for Wine Making | Page 1 of 1 (piwine.com)


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## heatherd (Apr 29, 2021)

MiBor said:


> My Chilean Sauvignon Blanc this year came in at pH 3.96, TA 0.4% and 23 brix. I thought maybe my pH meter has lost calibration in the 2 weeks I didn't use it, so I made fresh calibration solutions and found out that the meter was fine. Just to eliminate any possibility of error, I borrowed my neighbor's pH meter, calibrated it and measured the juice at 3.94. This is not the first time that my Chilean juice is out of balance. I believe they waited to harvest until the grapes had enough sugar and by that time a lot of the acid was gone. Or maybe the juice had too much sugar and they diluted it with just water/no tartaric acid.
> 
> Last year I decided to never buy red Bello juice again and to limit the quantity of white wine that I make. It would be a much better choice for me to use California juice in the fall, but that's when I make red wine from grapes and that's a lot of work in itself. Making white wine in the spring is ideal for me, but the quality of the juice from Chile is a hit/miss kind of deal (with emphasis on the miss part). I've been looking around trying to find South African juice, but nobody in my area sells it. Maybe I can have it shipped directly to my house from one of the distributors, but I haven't found a cost effective source yet.


@MiBor I know you can get Australian juice shipped to you from Presque Isle, in a shelf-stable format:  Shiraz Australian Winemaking Juice (piwine.com) They have 2020 harvest pails still. I did a 12-gallon batch of a ($75 + shipping) Australian Cabernet juice and frozen Cabernet Sauvignon ($150 + shipping) must from Musto, both shipped to me. It turned out really well.

You can also get Brehm and Winegrapesdirect California white juice shipped frozen anytime you're ready to make it. They're pH-tested, Brix-tested, and TA tested so you can see what you're going to get before you buy. They have red must, white juice, and white must.
Shop — Wine Grapes Direct 
White Varieties Archives - Brehm Vineyards


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## cmason1957 (Apr 29, 2021)

heatherd said:


> @cmason1957 Have you tried frozen grape must from Brehm, Winegrapesdirect, or Musto? Or a grape pack from Mosti Mondiali? I have used those with a spring or fall juice bucket, or Walker's juice, or Australian juice from Presque Isle wine in the past with good results. I like that that the buckets from WGD, Musto, and Brehm are pH-balanced, TA-tested, and Brix tested. Some are more spendy than the others but still good options. The Mosti grape pack at $20 + shipping is a lot of bang for the buck, especially since I typically split between two batches of red juice.
> WGD - Wine Grapes Direct
> Brehm - Brehm Vineyards - Fine Wine From Fine Grapes
> Musto - Frozen Must and Juice (juicegrape.com)
> ...



I have not. I belive i looked at those and shipping to Missouri pots them out of what I am willing to spend.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 30, 2021)

My local group orders from Musto and we get a "good" price on shipping due to volume. The shipping is still kind of stiff, so I'd hate to see what normal rates are.


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## AbruzziRed (May 2, 2021)

Day 10.
Riesling stuck at SG 1.00 since 4/29

Day 7 I warmed the Riesling up to 68 and stirred everyday and SG has still held at 1.000. My goal is get it too .996/.998. Should I wait any longer? It could be the yeast are not strong enough to finish. Do I stabilize and rack. I am still debating. What do you think?


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## Ajmassa (May 2, 2021)

i would rack but not stabilize. why rush? There’s plenty of co2 in there to protect it for a while so no need to degas or add so2. (and really no need to ever degas since time will do it for ya) Sometimes that last little bit of fermentation limps across the finish line. So if mine i would rack and make sure it’s topped up and give it another few weeks in hopes it goes fully dry.


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## Jbu50 (May 14, 2021)

I'm a little late to the party, but where did you buy your juice from? The importer that I buy Chilean juice confirms that even though their juice pail say "100% juice" the contents are balanced for SG, adjusted for pH, and contains yeast already, all done in Chile...


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## Ajmassa (May 14, 2021)

Jbu50 said:


> I'm a little late to the party, but where did you buy your juice from? The importer that I buy Chilean juice confirms that even though their juice pail say "100% juice" the contents are balanced for SG, adjusted for pH, and contains yeast already, all done in Chile...


was it the brand Toro Negro with a big bull logo? how did you confirm this info? couple years back i went on a damn mission to find out more details about my juice buckets contents. Getting info was like pulling teeth. things said on the phone would contradict info posted and i ended with more questions tbh.
None of them state that yeast was added and some specifically said - NO yeast was added. another brand - “Fuego” or something like that, was the only one that specifically said contains yeast. never had that brand tho

The biggest takeaway was the acid tho. when they balance the juice some brands will use citric acid for some reason. and citric affects the TA differently than tartaric would. if tartaric is weighted at 1g/L for TA i think citric clocks in a few ticks off— like .8 or 1.2 or something. enough to skew levels. So the TA might seem off from an ideal level. but is actually balanced. and also it might move more than expected if adjusting before fermentation too. this wasn’t the chilean brands tho. just a couple the cali brands.


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## Rice_Guy (May 15, 2021)

* ALL grapes in the vineyard contain yeast, (as well as Acetobacter, Bretanomycets, Flur, etc) the importer could be simply saying _“the factory has not made a shelf stable juice with ALL micro killed_”. Looking at club buckets it isn’t unusual to find samples actively fermenting however this spring did not.
* looking at the seven whites and eleven reds the vinters club ordered this year, it felt as if I was analyzing two tanks of juice with different labels (white zin was in between). The 2020 juice was equally consistent in gravity/ pH and TA. From a quality assurance perspective if the plant folks start with 100,000 gallons in a refrigerated silo(s) into frozen buckets (ie 35 shipping containers/ 460 pallets) I would expect fairly uniform quality.


. . . . Buckets are a fairly big business.


Jbu50 said:


> that even though their juice pail say "100% juice" the contents are balanced for SG, adjusted for pH, and contains yeast already, all done in Chile...


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## Tigre Cieca di Bocco (May 17, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> was it the brand Toro Negro with a big bull logo? how did you confirm this info?



The juice I just started is Toro Negro. When I was placing my order I asked why the Chilean Fresco was almost double the price of the Toro and was told the Fresco is fully balanced and inoculated, so you just pop it open and let it come to temp.

I was told the Toro Negro did not contain added yeast, just the natural yeast that will always be there, and they are sometimes adjusted acid wise. I bought one of each and plan on running them side by side along with taking all the pH and TA readings to see how "adjusted" each is. The Chilean Fresco should be in this week and the Toro Negro is fermenting along strongly.


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## Ajmassa (May 17, 2021)

Tigre Cieca di Bocco said:


> The juice I just started is Toro Negro. When I was placing my order I asked why the Chilean Fresco was almost double the price of the Toro and was told the Fresco is fully balanced and inoculated, so you just pop it open and let it come to temp.
> 
> I was told the Toro Negro did not contain added yeast, just the natural yeast that will always be there, and they are sometimes adjusted acid wise. I bought one of each and plan on running them side by side along with taking all the pH and TA readings to see how "adjusted" each is. The Chilean Fresco should be in this week and the Toro Negro is fermenting along strongly.


ahh Fresco. yes. that’s what i meant when i said ‘fuego’ as the one brand that contains an added yeast at the plant. 

not sure why it would be double price though. just for yeast? my bet is the person giving you that info wasn’t fully informed. Because i’m pretty sure all brands are balanced. They almost have to be. Just by the fact that the juice is in the bucket means it went through a process that basically doesn’t allow for it NOt to be balanced. maybe fresco’s plant is more high tech. i know some do this high heat spinning cone/flash detente method to produce a dense concentrate. They use that for the color darkening since apparently the regular juice goes thru crush& press so fast it ends up losing a ton of what it would have been if fermented on skins. 
Also pretty sure they all have enologists on staff to oversee it all. And it’s just logical to think they’d also be keeping brix and acid at ideal levels as well. IMO brix, acid, and color balancing are assumed. But so2 and cultured yeast — those are the wildcards. 

looking forward to seeing how your 2 buckets compare. we are doing a chilean and south african this week


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## Ajmassa (May 17, 2021)

also just got my order in from morewine today. got a couple of those additive packs specifically made for frozen brehms must buckets but work just as well for juice buckets. love this pack. red additive pack 
$8 (was $5) for single packets of goFerm, fermK, FT rouge tannin, opti-red, & lallzyme EX.


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## AbruzziRed (May 18, 2021)

Hi Everyone it’s been a while since I have posted any updates. I have been reading all the replies and personal messages and learning a lot.
So a quick update as we are a month in since the purchase of the Chilean juice.

Malbec - MLF is pretty much done based on Chromotagraphy test (see pic). I am going to test again in a week and then rack.

SB- settling nicely in the secondary with a balanced dose of kmeta (previous post)

Riesling- I racked off gross lees, did not add any k meta and have kept warm with stirring (every few days) and can not get the SG below 1.0. Maybe that’s the final. I am going to give it one more week then stabilize it.


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## winemaker81 (May 18, 2021)

AbruzziRed said:


> Riesling- I racked off gross lees, did not add any k meta and have kept warm with stirring (every few days) and can not get the SG below 1.0. Maybe that’s the final. I am going to give it one more week then stabilize it.


I looked up R2, it's supposed to handle 16% ABV, so I don't expect that's the problem, unless you have seriously underachieving yeast.

Other than adding a bit of nutrient, I don't know what you can do. If it was me, I'd put it under airlock and ignore it for 3 months. Well, not completely ignore it, I'd keep an eye on the airlock but not touch it unless there is activity, e.g., stuff blowing out the airlock. Then check the SG. If it hasn't moved, I figure it's not going to. When ready, stabilize and bottle.


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## opus345 (May 18, 2021)

I've always worried about wines I've ignore and then they end up being some of my better efforts.


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## Ajmassa (May 19, 2021)

Well i’ll be damned. Kudos to South Africa for their transparency.


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## Tigre Cieca di Bocco (May 20, 2021)

@Ajmassa that is interesting. The Toro Negro brand is manufactured by the same company in Ontario, but the pail only has the same warning label not mention of what the contents are outside fresh must.


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## Saxton Cellars (May 26, 2021)

Hey AJ,

What parts of that packet do you use for your juice and at what stages do you use them.


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## AbruzziRed (May 27, 2021)

Update 7 Day 43...

Well I have been extremely busy since the weather started to warm up but I got a chance to hang out in the wine room over the past few days. Two of the wines are turning out better then expected. They are racked again and will continue to bulk age. Here are the details:

Malbec: 
Free SO2 20.2ppm
PH 3.52
TA 4 g/L
ABV 12.2%
1 medium oak stick in secondary for a few weeks

MLF completed in a few weeks! 
Based on Daniel P’s SO2 calculator, I added .1g of kmeta at the racking.
Added a new medium oak stick at racking.
The wine is soft and light but has the note of cherry and no tongue burn. It needs a year but it seems promising. Although I am not as familiar with Malbecs as I am with Italian Reds, but drinking some commercial Malbec while working on mine helps.


Riesling:
Free SO2 8ppm
PH 3.41
TA 6.6g/L
ABV 13.6%

Racked and added .7g kmeta per the SO2 Calculator. I racked from a 5 gallon and 1 gallon into a 6 gallon and have s lot of head space. I am using the head space eliminator from AIO but I may top off with a bottle of Riesling, don’t know yet.
As far as taste, it has a great grapefuit finish, soft at first but a slight tingle in the throat. Maybe a 4 - 6 more months, I think it will be good by Christmas.

Happy wine adventures all and have a great Summer!


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## JBP (Jun 12, 2021)

So how often do you check MLF? I just checked my Chilean buckets (5 weeks post-inoculation) with Accuvin strips and they are both at ~75mg/L. At this point, should I be checking weekly, monthly or on some other schedule?


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## AbruzziRed (Jun 12, 2021)

JBP said:


> So how often do you check MLF? I just checked my Chilean buckets (5 weeks post-inoculation) with Accuvin strips and they are both at ~75mg/L. At this point, should I be checking weekly, monthly or on some other schedule?


How long you wait for MLF to finish depends on temp of the wine. I kept mine around 70-75. 
keep checking every week until there is no color change on the strips (according to the website).


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## AbruzziRed (Sep 30, 2021)

Update Day 164:

Well its been a while since my last update. With work from home and then the crazy Summer I did not get to rack my wine in June like I wanted. I just tested, adjusted and racked today and I was quite surprised how good it was. So here are the details:

Sauvignon Blanc with D47 yeast:
- Tasted @ 64deg but was smooth calm fruity and balanced on the tongue
- SG .994
- ABV 12.73%
- PH 3.65
- Free SO2 measured 8 ppm, added .2g (3 gallons) to get it to target 20 ppm (According to Winemaking Tools – Daniel Pambianchi)
- I racked the wine and will let sit another month or so. I may try blending in November with the other SB

Sauvignon Blanc with K1-V1116 Yeast
- Tasted @ 64 deg. This tasted good but had a byte to it. I call it a sharp taste. Interesting is the ABV and PH are the same but Free SO 2 was different. This shows what Yeast can do.
- SG .994
- ABV 12.73%
- PH 3.65
- Free SO2 measured 6ppm, added .3g for 3 gallons and racked.
- I racked this one and I am going to do bench trials and blend with the D47 SB.

SB Observations: I bought 6 gallons of juice and split it down the middle with D47 and K1-1116 yeast. They sat next to each other the whole time, maintained the same temp and everything. Yeast DOES make a big difference!!


Chilean Malbec:
- Tasted at temp 64 Deg. It dried up but it seems sort of flat. I am not a wine expert as far as tasting characteristics but its missing structure even after sitting with a medium oak stick for about 4 months.
- PH 3.63
- SG .994
- ABV 12.7%
- Free SO2 at around 22 PPM so not adjustments.
- MLF completed
- TA 36g/L
- Racked and will let this sit for another 6 months.


Chilean Riesling:
- Tasted at temp 64 and cooled. This is an awesome dry fruity not as citric Riesling. I made this for a friend and she likes it sweeter so I will have to back sweeten when bottling.
- Free SO2 6ppm and adjusted to 20 ppm with 5.1 ml of 10% kmeta solution.
- PH 3.52
- Racked and will bottle before Christmas.


Overall this has been an awesome learning experience and experiment. Just documenting this on this forum and getting your feedback has helped me think about my steps and what to do next time.

Till next time!


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 1, 2021)

It would be interesting if you could edit this post (_about 24 hours till it is locked) _to add SG on everything, TA on the two yeast trials.

Curious what time will do, ,,, since you have excellent numbers, ,,, with some of my rhubarb wines I have looked back and seen the TA is lower with the older wine (same process) it drops in half over five years. (I have seen two notes on the web which say that esthers are forming which effectively removes acids from the beverage ) It would be interesting to see what your grape does with time


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## AbruzziRed (Oct 1, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> It would be interesting if you could edit this post (_about 24 hours till it is locked) _to add SG on everything, TA on the two yeast trials.
> 
> Curious what time will do, ,,, since you have excellent numbers, ,,, with some of my rhubarb wines I have looked back and seen the TA is lower with the older wine (same process) it drops in half over five years. (I have seen two notes on the web which say that esthers are forming which effectively removes acids from the beverage ) It would be interesting to see what your grape does with time


Hi @Rice_Guy I added SG in (need to check notes for Riesling at home). I need to measure TA soon. Its also interesting that these juice buckets all came in at starting SG 1.091 and finished at .994. Never had that before. I will keep measuring over time but the wine may not be around after 5 years


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## Dan M (Mar 12, 2022)

It looks like this thread has been quiet for a while, but also looks like a good place for my post. I ordered a Chilean Pinot Grigio juice bucket, which should come in near the end of April. I've only made kits so far and want to give this a whirl. I plan to "make it like a kit" but also have a few other thoughts and uncertainties. Here goes...

-Use a yeast starter, similar to FWK.
-Use Lalvin EC-1118 (open to suggestions).
-Add oak chips and golden raisins to the primary.
-Backsweeten with sugar to semi-sweet before bottling (open to other methods).

I'm reading through many threads now for ideas, but if you've been down this road and have any suggestions, tips or advice, please reply. As always, thanks to all for your support in my journey!


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## mainshipfred (Mar 12, 2022)

Nothing wrong with your plan and congratulations on your graduation to juice buckets.


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## Chuck E (Mar 12, 2022)

Dan M said:


> I-Use a yeast starter, similar to FWK.
> -Use Lalvin EC-1118 (open to suggestions).
> -Add oak chips and golden raisins to the primary.
> -Backsweeten with sugar to semi-sweet before bottling (open to other methods)



Be careful not to put too many raisins in the primary. Too much can turn the wine orange. It won't marr the taste but it is an unusual color. Try about one cup to start. Ferment on the cool side 60-70F. Other yeasts besides EC-1118 will help, I use Allegra.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 12, 2022)

* Chilean buckets from Prairie Vinters have been extremely consistent gravity as 1.089 to 1.091. If your bucket is the same region as we get acid tends to run low. ,,,, It will be a good idea to check pH and TA.
* The yeast companies suggest a starter. I haven’t ever done a starter though, it just works
* 1118 always works, I have used a lot of Bm4x4, These both require a good nutrient regime. Renaissance yeast will let you be more sloppy on nitrogen. ,,, With whites watch for H2S and mercaptan flavors (skunk). ,,, Low levels of H2S will hide fruity aromatics.
* A good YAN regime is Fermaid O at the start and Fermaid K at 1/3 sugar fermentation. Organic nitrogen is supposed to give a smoother fermentation. For yeast, Chemical nitrogen is like giving candy to a two year old.
* oak, sure. Consider adding more as cubes or staves after racking. ? Raisins ? why ? are you expecting low body or low flavor, raisins won’t hurt anything.
* Better aromatics if you run cool and long.


Dan M said:


> Here goes...
> -Use a yeast starter, similar to FWK.
> -Use Lalvin EC-1118 (open to suggestions).
> -Add oak chips and golden raisins to the primary.
> ...



You can run buckets like a kit. You should be able to accomplish better flavor than a kit.


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## Dan M (Mar 13, 2022)

Great responses so far! Thanks for all the advice.

@Rice_Guy - I mentioned that I have only done kits so far, so checking for pH, TA, H2S, YAN, etc., is a bit outside my wheelhouse.  I'll use this as an opportunity to read up on some of these topics. I'm hoping I haven't bitten off more than I can chew... I was under the impression that the juice buckets come pH balanced.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 13, 2022)

Dan M said:


> I was under the impression that the juice buckets come pH balanced.


If you are lucky Yes ,,, if I step back four years ago I thought buckets were good, a guess on my part is that our supplier switched to a hotter growing region. You might try asking the supplier if it has been checked. A pH sample is as small as ten ml, and your local high school chemistry lab has the equipment. A pH stick can be found today for as little as $25, my meter was about $70, and for the pilot plant. There are several threads on favorite brand.
. . . . pH is fairly basic as a general food preservative.


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