# Isinglass or Bentonite or...?



## Just-a-Guy (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi Folks,

I have 3 batches in process - 1: a grape juice concentrate (my first try); 2: a Dragon's Blood (4 berry mixed, with some mixed berry concentrate); 3: a pear (Vintner's Harvest can plus Trader Joe's pear cider plus some fruit in a bag).

1 and 2 are in secondaries. I am about ready to move to next stages, including clearing (1 looks pretty good, 2 is still a bit cloudy). I would like to add some clearing agent (or whatever you call it), to try to get at least one in bottles by Christmas. Wondering what you folks might recommend? I have some Bentonite, and also some Isinglass. I know there's a lot of literature about fining, and I'm trying to learn it, but hoping to get a little guidance here, too.

Thank you!

Mark


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## heatherd (Nov 24, 2014)

If you are sure they are fully degassed you can use isinglas or superkleer. They will clear on their own, given enough time, but a clearing agent will speed things up.


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## cintipam (Nov 24, 2014)

Mark, go read this thread about bottling too soon. The biggest problem for a newbie is they just don't get how long it take to really fully degas. If actual fermentation does begin again, the bottles turn into bottle bombs that at best make a mess at worse explode in your hands causing you physical damage. Not good.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/sediment-issues-47766/#post541341

Pam in cinti


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks Heather and Pam. 

I've racked both the DB and the grape with the allineone; I've racked the DB twice with the allinone. In addition, I have pumped one of those silly wine vacs til I thought I was gonna go nuts. I'm getting nothing from the DB - if I pump long enough, I can get a few large bubbles to come up. The grape I am down to a handful of large bubbles when I pump hard -- I don't think it's CO2 in either case. (I have a brake bleeder on order, but I think the vacu vin or whatever it is seems to work ok if you have the patience). 

My plan is to rack all the wines again in the next few days (first time for the pear), using the allinone, and in the process add a fining agent. Then let them sit for a week or so, then rack again and add sorbate, wait a week, then back sweeten to taste. Then wait another week and filter using the allineone and whole house setup I bought. Then bottle. 

Hey, I'm not making fine cabs here... just some quick fruit wines for fun.  

From what I've been able to determine from reading, no one agrees about much of anything when it comes to fining agents. Some say always use bentonite, some say never. Some say use it in the primary, some say use it in the secondary. Etc. 

I think since I have some I will use it in this racking, then maybe consider some isinglass when I rack to add the sorbate (in a week or so). Unless someone tells me this is a bad plan....

Mark

Edit: I'll read the bottling thread now, thanks! (OK - I've read that thread before, got it!) 

Second Edit: I'm familiar with bottle bombs from brewing. So is my wife, unfortunately....


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## cintipam (Nov 24, 2014)

If it's only going to sit a week don't use sparkolloid. That takes more than a month to fully drop, even then it's soo floaty that it disturbs easily. Stuff looks clerar a lot earlier, but will drop more and it looks ghostly weird in the bottle. I am highly allergic to shellfish so the only other product I use is bentonite. Don't use too much, it will strip flavor, but it will clear pretty quickly. I tend to filter everything I use sparkolloid or bentonite in just to be safe,

Pam in cinti


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## cintipam (Nov 24, 2014)

BTW congrats on the AIO. You'll never regret it. If you got the degassing attmt all you need to do to be certain it is degassed is to rack it back and forth a few times. Don't need to bother with vacuvin or brake bleeder.

Pam in cinti


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks. Yeah, I racked the DB twice with the AIO, and seriously, I thought something was wrong, I couldn't any CO2 to come up with the vacu vin. It's remarkable. I love this thing.


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## Rodnboro (Nov 24, 2014)

Superkleer is the best I've found. Just make sure it's ready first.


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## cdjohnston (Nov 24, 2014)

Here's an excellent little paper on the why and what of fining agents. 

http://www.uark.edu/depts/ifse/grapeprog/articles/nmc14wg.pdf

Mildly technical but very helpful. One thing they talk about on the gelatin - be careful with over-fining. If you over-do it, they talk about getting bitter in the wine. well, it can also unbind various hydrogen sulfides from the tannin polyphenols to give you stinky wine.


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## cdevrard (Nov 24, 2014)

I second this. Just used superkleer on my first batch of dragon blood and wow! It has been 7 days and it is the clearest wine I've ever made. 

CE 





Rodnboro said:


> Superkleer is the best I've found. Just make sure it's ready first.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 24, 2014)

cdevrard said:


> I second this. Just used superkleer on my first batch of dragon blood and wow! It has been 7 days and it is the clearest wine I've ever made.
> 
> CE



For the DB, when did you add the Superkleer (I realize it is a two-stage process, just wondering if you did it from the start or somewhere along the way)?

Thanks!

Mark


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 24, 2014)

Well, I moved the pear from the bucket to a carboy tonight, using gravity from a spigot. Then I racked off the grape from one carboy to another, using the AIO. The latter was about 5 times as fast (how many times I have moved beer from the fermentation bucket with the gravity/spigot method... never again!). 

For each batch, I heated up a TS of bentonite. What a pain in the aspirin that stuff is! Me and The Boy spent a good 20 minutes trying to get two sauce pans with 1 c each of water to dissolve that crap. Finally got it done, and added it to the carboys prior to transfer, along with 2 ts each of k-meta (dissolved separately). I filled the hydrometer tube from each batch (SG around 1.000, I thought it would be lower, but ok). Then poured that off into a couple of glasses to drink. Not bad! (I have low ambitions.) 

Less than an hour later, you can already see sediment and some clearing in each of the grape and pear. 

About to mix up a fourth batch, probably a pear/apple. Maybe a strawberry or blueberry (so many choices!). Whatever it is, it will ferment in a ss conical for the first time in this house. We're moving up in the world (even if it's just hardware-wise).


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## heatherd (Nov 24, 2014)

Looks good! If you are not allergic to shellfish, superkleer kc is the way to go. Directions are on the package but you degas and stabilize, then add the first packet. You can add the second packet in an hour. It will be amazingly clear in about a day. Only downside is that you need to be sure that nobody who drinks the wine has a shellfish allergy (like Pam) because that could actually be lethal depending on the severity of the person's sensitivity. Hence the warning stickers people put on their bottles...


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## cdevrard (Nov 25, 2014)

I just followed the DB directions and the super kleer instructions. After no SG change for three days I K meta-ed, and Sorbated. Then degassed. Next I did the super kleer (both steps/phases) and finally racked into carboys. I've never done it all in one afternoon like that but it was simple and seems to have worked well. Guess I'll know for sure when I go to back sweeten. 



Just-a-Guy said:


> For the DB, when did you add the Superkleer (I realize it is a two-stage process, just wondering if you did it from the start or somewhere along the way)?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


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## Rodnboro (Nov 25, 2014)

From what I understand, SuperKleer is safe due to the derivative coming from sucrose in the shellfish and not the protein. The protein is what causes the allergic reactions. Then again, I'm not a chemist or scientist either.


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## calvin (Nov 25, 2014)

I found this with a quick google search. Supposedly it is a quote from web md

Shellfish allergy: Chitosan is taken from the outer skeleton of shellfish. There is a concern that people with allergies to shellfish might also be allergic to chitosan. However, people who are allergic to shellfish are allergic to the meat, not the shell. So some experts believe that chitosan may not be a problem for people with shellfish allergy."

If I had a serious shellfish allergy I would do some of my own research


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 25, 2014)

This is the pear 24 hours after racking onto the bentonite. I'm new at this, so I don't know how normal this is (whether it would have happened with or without the bentonite). But this wine was very cloudy, and it seems to be rapidly clearing out now. 

Also, just a passing note -- although I had "de-gassed" the grape wine with the Vacu-Vin till I was blue in the face (and The Boy did, too), over a period of two days, when I racked it into a second carboy using the AIO (first time with the AIO on that wine), I got a ton of foam. Probably 8 inches of foam when the receiving carboy was 2/3 full. Remarkable.


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## cintipam (Nov 26, 2014)

Hi

racking onto bentonite? My directions say to mix with very hot water, let sit, stir again then stir hard into the wine. If all you did was rack onto it I'm impressed it is working. I do know there are a couple diff versions of bentonite with very different instructions, so follow whatever your pkg said. But I googled for instructions and learned a few things from it. Here is the link if you are interested.

http://www.eckraus.com/wine-making-bentonite/

Some fruits are much harder to clear than others. Peach, pear, strawberry, niagara grape are a couple tough to clear that come to mind. That's why most folks go ahead and add bentonite about day 3 into fermentation on them.

Pam in cinti


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 26, 2014)

cintipam said:


> Hi
> 
> racking onto bentonite? My directions say to mix with very hot water, let sit, stir again then stir hard into the wine. If all you did was rack onto it I'm impressed it is working. I do know there are a couple diff versions of bentonite with very different instructions, so follow whatever your pkg said. But I googled for instructions and learned a few things from it. Here is the link if you are interested.
> 
> ...




Thanks, Pam, I'll have a look at that.

It's kind of funny, actually, I've scoured the internet (and this site) for info about how/when/where etc to use bentonite (and other fining agents). Reminds me of the old saying about economists, "If you line them up in a line long enough to go around the world, they wouldn't reach a conclusion."  

I don't know if the pear is clearing out "on its own", or if the bentonite is helping. FWIW, the grape, which had been in the secondary longer, and which I did the same way on the same night, also has about an inch of sludge on the bottom now. I'm not gonna stir either one at this point.


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## cintipam (Nov 26, 2014)

Just reread your note about how you did the bentonite. sounds like that was good but did I read you put 2 t (teaspoons) in EACH carboy of Kmeta? normal dose is 1/4 tsp per each 5 or 6 gallon carboy. I just wanted to be sure since you are kinda new to wine.

Pam in cinti


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## cintipam (Nov 26, 2014)

Also, here is a link to a tutorial about fining agents. It is in the tutorial forum. There is a lot of good info there, but I agree searching this forum isn't easy. I usually just do a google, on bentonite I had to add the word wine to get it wine specific.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/understanding-fining-agents-16678/

BTW if you did 2 tsp kmeta you didn't ruin your wine. Esp since it is young. But be aware you overdid it and use far less (1/4 tsp total per each big 5 or 6 gall carboy) next time.

Pam in cinti


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 26, 2014)

cintipam said:


> Just reread your note about how you did the bentonite. sounds like that was good but did I read you put 2 t (teaspoons) in EACH carboy of Kmeta? normal dose is 1/4 tsp per each 5 or 6 gallon carboy. I just wanted to be sure since you are kinda new to wine.
> 
> Pam in cinti



Um... yeah, 2 tsp p CB. Yikes. Not sure where I got that, maybe I just read it wrong... Whaddaya reckon will happen?


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## cintipam (Nov 26, 2014)

what is p CB?


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 26, 2014)

cintipam said:


> what is p CB?



Sorry. Per carboy (I should remember this forum is not my wine journal). These are 5 gal carboys, filled to the neck.


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## cintipam (Nov 26, 2014)

figured it out. per carboy.

Ok, you used way too much. luckily the stuff only lasts limited length of time, and stirring will help work some off. So give it a couple big stirs, then don't worry about it till time to add more. Then add the 1/4 tsp per carboy. 

At this point you do have too much, only real problem is that if you tried to drink the wine you would taste it. Since it is too young to drink as I said give it a couple good stirs and forget about it .

Pam in cinti


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## Just-a-Guy (Nov 26, 2014)

Thanks, Pam. Appreciate the help!

Mark


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## cintipam (Nov 26, 2014)

You prob got it from the directions. Kmeta is used for 2 diff purposes. In first step of winemaking to stun wild yeast or later for protecting the wine or it is 1/4 tsp per 5 or 6 gallons.

However kmeta also makes a very effective sanitizing solution that is made much much stronger. Those directions are also on the label and I bet you read that. This is an important difference to remember.

Pam in cinti


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## T-n-T (Jan 7, 2023)

Just-a-Guy said:


> Thanks Heather and Pam.
> 
> I've racked both the DB and the grape with the allineone; I've racked the DB twice with the allinone. In addition, I have pumped one of those silly wine vacs til I thought I was gonna go nuts. I'm getting nothing from the DB - if I pump long enough, I can get a few large bubbles to come up. The grape I am down to a handful of large bubbles when I pump hard -- I don't think it's CO2 in either case. (I have a brake bleeder on order, but I think the vacu vin or whatever it is seems to work ok if you have the patience).
> 
> ...


Hi, it's TnT in Venice

I found this thread and it appears great so far - I like it! Trying to speed up clarification can often be futile and even strip some nice flavors. I've used them all and they can be tricky. We have found, time is the best clarifier. More concerning is back sweetening. This can also be a frustrating experience for beginners. Just remember sorbates and sulfites don't stop fermentation, they pause it for a period of time (unless you keep adding more which is not ideal). When you sweeten back, yeast - even though you think there are non from sorbating or sulfiting - fermentation can often restart. And, yes, even in bottles. Another thing that can help against fermentation starting again is the alcohol level (depending on the yeast used). If you have a pretty high alcohol level plus sorbate, fermentation is less likely to start back up when back-sweetened. If your alcohol is less than 12 or 13, take caution and don't bottle too soon (to see if fermentation restarts). Remember, different yeasts have different tolerances to alcohol. I suggest you experiment with different clarifiers. Next time make a gallon extra and play with the gallon batch instead of your five-gallon batch. You can always find what you like best (regarding retaining flavor and clarity) and then apply that to your bigger batch. Also, different fruits can respond somewhat differently to clarifiers. We have used many things in the past many years including peaches, pears, plums, strawberries, blueberries, blackberries, apples, oranges, grapefruits, crabapples, prickly pears, persimmons, loquats, and others I can't think of right now. Remember, winemaking is a time-involved contact sport - patience is a virtue - and trying to rush things can often be ruinous.


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## winemanden (Jan 7, 2023)

Just-a-Guy said:


> Thanks Heather and Pam.
> 
> I've racked both the DB and the grape with the allineone; I've racked the DB twice with the allinone. In addition, I have pumped one of those silly wine vacs til I thought I was gonna go nuts. I'm getting nothing from the DB - if I pump long enough, I can get a few large bubbles to come up. The grape I am down to a handful of large bubbles when I pump hard -- I don't think it's CO2 in either case. (I have a brake bleeder on order, but I think the vacu vin or whatever it is seems to work ok if you have the patience).
> 
> ...


I think that what we're all agreed on is patience. Patience is a key ingredient!!


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## Biggz (Jan 7, 2023)

I bought some bentonite to use on my wine, mixed some up and that crap was like cement..i decided to go against the clearing agents and just let the clarity happen on its own and it will. The wine was nice and clear by the time i got to drinking it and the mead is still sitting and getting more clear everyday.


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