# How good a chemistry lab do you need?



## Boatboy24 (Mar 4, 2013)

I got some more details from Harford Vineyard over the weekend regarding their Chilean buckets. I was told that they are supposed to be balanced when they arrive. But over the years, they have seen them off from time to time. Seeing as how I've all but officially decided to get some buckets, I'm now trying to make sure I've got the bases covered to adjust as needed when I get my precious little buckets home. I expect to have TA, pH, and Brix/SG measurements from the vendor and imagine that I should confirm those myself. Then what? What sort of targets should I be aiming for, and what sort of chemicals should I have on hand if I'm off target? 

I've only been making kits for a year now, but this move to juice makes me feel like a total rookie again. Thanks for your input!

Jim


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## JohnT (Mar 4, 2013)

For PH, a good target is 3.35 to 3.5. 

For TA, A good target would be .65 g/l for reds, .70 g/l for whites/fruit wines

For brix, well that can vary greatly from grape to grape. For the most grapes, a brix reading anywhere from 20% to 26% is to be expected. If you are getting bucket juice, I would advise against any sugar adjustment. Just go with what you have.

Adjust acid using tartaric acid (to lower your PH) or k-bicarb (to raise your PH). 

As with kits, k-meta, sorbate, etc are always handy to have as needed.


Note: The above is only my opinion. Others might disagree.


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## Turock (Mar 4, 2013)

Don't use potassium carbonate to adjust musts pre-ferment. Potassium carbonate is only for tweaking PH post ferment---not moving it several tenths. Also, potassium carbonate can damage the nose and delicate flavors in some wines and should not be used at all.

Use calcium carbonate for increasing the PH if needed. Tartaric acid for grapes to lower the PH--but acid blend has many uses,also. Sometimes the citric acid in acid blend is a nice addition to some musts that need more acid bite.

It's impossible to tell you a standard PH--depends on the wine. I think you're wise to take Ph readings on bucket juice. We never take anything for granted---we test everything, no matter what it is--even Alexander's concentrate. Your wines will be more balanced and you'll become a better winemaker by testing and adjusting PH. PH can really influence the flavors that come out in the finished wine. Acid adjustment always yields a better result when done pre-ferment rather than post ferment.


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## GreginND (Mar 4, 2013)

Turock said:


> but acid blend has many uses,also. Sometimes the citric acid in acid blend is a nice addition to some musts that need more acid bite.



I would not recommend acid blend to be used - ever. Citric acid is not stable to microbes. This is particularly a problem if you do MLF. ML bacteria will convert citric acid to acetic acid (vinegar).


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks all. I'm looking forward to stepping up my game.

Jim


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## Polarhug (Mar 4, 2013)

GreginND said:


> I would not recommend acid blend to be used - ever. Citric acid is not stable to microbes. This is particularly a problem if you do MLF. ML bacteria will convert citric acid to acetic acid (vinegar).



What is your recommendation for increasing an acid if needed?


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## GreginND (Mar 4, 2013)

Polarhug said:


> What is your recommendation for increasing an acid if needed?



I would only use tartaric acid for grape wines. I actually use it for other fruits too.


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## Turock (Mar 5, 2013)

You would never use citric acid if you're going to do an MLF--that is true. But to say acid blend is never a good choice is putting absolutes on the thing and you can be missing out on the tools available to winemakers. We always use acid blend on our Niagara wine--it turns out beautifully. Citric acid by itself is often used post ferment to add a little "zing" to whites.


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## GreginND (Mar 5, 2013)

I did not say it is never a good choice. I said that _I_ would not ever recommend it. Using citric in any grape wine risks microbial instability.

And in commercial grape wine production citric acid additions are not allowed.


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## Turock (Mar 5, 2013)

Who said anything about commercial wines? I still disagree with you because experience with it is everything. I don't always agree with what every white paper has to say on a subject when my experience over 1/4 of a century says otherwise.


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## Polarhug (Mar 5, 2013)

GreginND said:


> And in commercial grape wine production citric acid additions are not allowed.



That is what I LOVE about the forum. Learning so many new things, & new ways to do things every day!


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## GreginND (Mar 5, 2013)

Sorry - my bad. I just looked up the TTB regulations on acid additions. It does say you may add citric acid but you can only add it after fermentation. You cannot add citric acid prior to fermentation.

For berry wines the TTB only allows citric acid be used.

The regulation on acid additions can be found here:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=b7f9f236991b6c5fbfc2934633c089f2&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:1.0.1.1.19&idno=27#27:1.0.1.1.19.6.343.8


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## skyrat (Mar 9, 2013)

Greg, Maybe I am missing some points here but in reading this thread maybe you are missing a point as well?? I think you missed Turocks point.

A lot of folks on this forum are "Amateur" IE: non commercial winemakers and as such are not subject to TTB rules. They are a good guide for us but we can do anything we like as far as additions of Acids / types. True we must consider the consequences of when, what and how to use Acids BUT.......Acid Blend does add certain characteristics to wines and in that we are free to experiment. I have quite a few different berry wine recipes that I use Acid Blend in. No one has complained yet.


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## Turock (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree with you, skyrat. Tartaric is the softest tasting of the acids. It depends on what you're working with and what your tastes are. After all---this is why we make our own wines---so we can tweak things and come up with flavor profiles that many of us don't find in commercial wines. Very often you want more tartness because it brings out other characteristics in the wine, as you mentioned.

Some things are said, within a forum, that are talked about with hard and fast rules that really don't exist. This limits new winemakers into having less tools to work with when they really should be experimenting in order to understand something like the uses of different acids. 

The good thing about having these kinds of exchanges within a forum is that it gets people thinking and it causes people to do a little more research and get more info into what was said. This hobby can require a lot of study and you don't think about some things until a difference in opinion comes up. Everyone ends up benefiting from a little more research--so it's all good.


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## GreginND (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks Guys. I don't mean to argue. I was simply pointing out that citric acid can have a problem with microbial stability. I brought up the TTB regulations because this is one of the rare cases where one of their regulations is actually based on a good reason. 

I do agree that rigid rules without explanations are not good for new winemakers to learn. But I also think offering suggestions without informing about potential consequences of them may also be a problem for them. 

In any case, I hope our discussion here has helped to inform people and I do hope they experiment on their own. That is the fun of winemaking!


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## Turock (Mar 10, 2013)

Greg--I don't understand the idea of citric acid having microbial instability. Did you read a white paper on this? I'd like to read it.

I DO know there are molds that like citric acid. But within a wine you not only have the PH controled in a certain range, but you also have alcohol content and these 2 together along with SO2 prevent any microbial activity. It has been said that not even a human patholgen can grow in such an environment.

Some winemakers even use citric acid along with meta for santitizing. So I'm just not sure of the science on this and would like you to enlighten me.


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## ibglowin (Mar 10, 2013)

The major disadvantage of adding citric acid is its microbial instability. Bacteria can use citric acid in their metabolism, thus any citric acid added may just be consumed by bacteria, promoting and or fueling the growth of unwanted microbes.

*If* citric acid is used in a wine it should always done after primary alcohol fermentation has been completed due to the tendency of yeast to convert citric into acetic acid.


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## Turock (Mar 10, 2013)

So what you're saying is there is a difference between citric acid itself and the small amount of citric acid in acid blend?


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## ibglowin (Mar 10, 2013)

Citric acid is citric acid, doesn't matter if its in a blend or by itself.


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## GreginND (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes, you're right. Yeast will metabolize citric acid into acetic acid. And ML bacterial will convert it to diacetyl. There are a lot of biochemical pathways for degradation of citric acid. Again, it is much more of a problem before and during fermentation than it is after the wine is finished and stabilized.

The original poster in this thread was talking about adjusting pre-ferment must if I am not mistaken.


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## skyrat (Mar 10, 2013)

So Now I am missing a point and since I make a lot of berry based wines...... If TTB states ONLY citric acid can be used in berry wines are they not setting the Berry winemaker up for possible / probable microbal failure based on the information provided in the past couple posts.

That would seem to be the case but .....I know that is not true. Can someone clarify the TTB rational here?


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## Turock (Mar 21, 2013)

OK--I read a white paper on citric acid and here's the scoop. Using citric acid on a ferment has the "POSSIBILITY" of producing acetic acid. It said that because of "that risk" many winemakers choose not to use it.

However, we have used acid blend for 23 years on every batch of Niagara wine we've ever made--and we make a lot of it every year--without ever encountering a problem. The wine drinkers who like Niagara tell us that our's is the best Niagara they ever had, including that produced from the wineries in Ohio. That many years of experience trumps what the conventional thinking may say.

On another note--most fruit wines don't need any more acid--they need calcium carbonate to adjust the PH higher because many are too acid to start with. This, of course, depends on location but our soil here is acidic. 

There is a smaller amount of citric acid in acid blend so it seems encountering acetic acid formation is much less risk than if you used ALL citric before ferment. That wouldn't be a good way to go, especially since citric acid gives a lemoney flavor which may not be desireable. If you wanted more citric acid in a wine, you'd use it in the post ferment. But I have to say that the citric acid flavor is really delightful in a Niagara.


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## GreginND (Mar 21, 2013)

Turock, I'm glad to hear you have had good experience using acid blend. Are you adding it pre-fermentation? The acetic acid production may be yeast strain dependent. I also presume you are not doing ML fermentation on niagra wine.

Acid blend is typically 50% citric acid. That is not a "smaller" amount. 

I will just say because acid blend works well for your niagra wine in the style you are making it, it does not mean it should be generally recommended to others making grape wines. The details about when to add and whether to do ML really do matter.

Skyrat, the TTB restricts berry wines to citric acid only because that is usually the natural acid found in berries. They do not want "unnatural" acids added to fruits that don't normally contain them. I think it is a little misguided. Most fruit wines are not taken through an ML fermentation.


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## wineman2013 (Mar 21, 2013)

The production of acetic acid risk is greater durring mlf , not alcohol fermentation.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/MLF/MLF.htm

Since berry wines don't go through mlf the risk of acetic acid and va production is lower. 

For a home winemaker tartaric acid works well with berry wines and has the advantage that its micro bialy stable and if you add too much of it you can cold stabilize and save the wine from your error.

Acid blend doesn't go well with grape wines because it contains D Malic acid which is unfermentable by MLB . This means if you use acid blend then do mlf on the wine , it will always test positive for Malic , making it impossible to know if mlf is complete and the wine stable
And as already stated MLB and citric acid increases the risk of VA


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## Runningwolf (Mar 21, 2013)

This is all great information and thanks to those doing some leg work to post.


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## GreginND (Mar 22, 2013)

wineman2013 said:


> The production of acetic acid risk is greater durring mlf , not alcohol fermentation.
> 
> http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/MLF/MLF.htm




I think you mean production of diactyl? That is the main product of citric acid metabolism by mlb. I thought acetic acid from citric was a result of yeast metabolism.





wineman2013 said:


> Acid blend doesn't go well with grape wines because it contains D Malic acid which is unfermentable by MLB . This means if you use acid blend then do mlf on the wine , it will always test positive for Malic , making it impossible to know if mlf is complete and the wine stable



That's interesting. I just assumed it was the natural L-malic that was used in acid blend. Do you know if manufacturers are using the racemic DL-malic? If so, half the malic would be the unnatural isomer. 

I can't find much specific information about acid blend components. The product from Kraus says it is 50% citric, 25% malic, 25% tartaric. Midwest supplies lists their acid blend as 40% citric, 50% malic and 10% tartaric.

Does anyone know how much the ratios differ from product to product? It would seem to me if not all acid blends are the same that making consistent wine from year to year might be a challenge. Another reason to use pure ingredients and know how much you are adding.


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## ibglowin (Mar 22, 2013)

I researched this topic to death several years ago after accidentally adding some store bought Malic which I thought was Tartaric. Everything I found indicated that pure L-Malic (which is what MLB can utilize) is only found in nature. 

Manmade Malic is normally a mixture of (D&L). Pure L-Malic is available but very expensive and there are only a couple of manufacturers making it. The buyers of pure L-Malic are manufacturers who produce "organic" labeled foods or beverages. If they need to add Malic for any reason they must use the expensive L-Malic as the (D-L) manmade mixture can not be used in an organically labeled product by law.

If you add inexpensive "Acid blend" to a wine you are getting the manmade (D-L) mixture so it would all depend on the % of each enantiomer as to how much of it could be used by MLB



GreginND said:


> That's interesting. I just assumed it was the natural L-malic that was used in acid blend. Do you know if manufacturers are using the racemic DL-malic? If so, half the malic would be the unnatural isomer.


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## Turock (Mar 22, 2013)

The paper I read talked about acetic acid formation. Diacetyl acid production is actually desireable in certain wines, Like Chardonnay and Pinot Noir because of the butter flavor and mouthfeel and is the byproduct of MLF with the lactic acid.

Actually, acid blend can be found in different blends--the proportions of each acid can vary and is why we always look at the percentages of the blends when we go to buy it. Citric is never 50%--it varies between 20 and 30%. Also something to consider is how much is used. We are moving the PH with it only a couple of tenths. The grapes may start at 3.3 to 3.4 and we are adjusting to 3.2 So it doesn't require a lot of acid blend.

I understand that depending on the grape and if you are going to do MLF,etc. that you need to know what you're doing in using acid blend. It isn't for everything, to be sure. But to say it can never be used isn't quite correct either. 

Yes, we are adding it pre-ferment for PH adjustment. We never MLF a Niagara--that would totally ruin the fruity profile of this wine.

What wineman said about the D malic is correct and is why you are always warned about using no acid other than tartaric when planning to do an MLF.


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## GreginND (Mar 22, 2013)

Kraus lists their acid blend as 50% citric acid.

"Ingredients: 
50% citric acid (CAS 77-92-9), 25% malic acid (CAS 6915-15-7), 25% tartaric acid (CAS 87-69-4)."

http://www.eckraus.com/6-oz-acid-blend.html

Midwest Supplies says their acid blend is 40% citric acid.

"Acid blend is made up of 50% Malic Acid, 40% Citric Acid, and 10% Tartaric Acid."

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/acid-blend.html


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## wineman2013 (Mar 22, 2013)

Read the article I attached 
Heterofermentative MLB can metabolise citric acid to predominantly acetic acid, lactic acid and carbon dioxide [Dittrich, 1977; Subramanian and SivaRaman, 1984; Martineau and Henick-Kling, 1995].

I didn't mean diactyl . 

Many of the modern MLB strains are actually selected to produce low levels of diactyl as this is undesirable in red wines , mbr vp 41 is one example 
http://www.lallemandwine.com/spip.php?rubrique33&id_mot=23&lang=en 

Something to note if working with mega acid hybrid and American reds and whites , you can drop the acid sharpness without your norton or seval blanc tasting like cheese! (Using so2 at crush and cofermenting MLB and yeast also reduce diactyl production) http://www.lallemandwine.com/spip.php?rubrique4<=fr&td=1&univ=23 

They also produce less Volatile Acidity but in the presence of citric it's still a risk.
I should note that grapes naturally contain very low levels of citric acid , like a half a percent max . Tartaric and Malic acid dominate . So to add citric is to give the wine an artificial profile.

Acid adjustments in a grape wine should always be done with tartaric as a best practice , it also works very well for fruit wines , is microbialy stable and maybe lowered with CS if you over shoot on your additions .

For members outside the USA acid blend may be hard to find as its not allowed as a wine additive in many countries.

At 8 bucks a pound or less tartaric is cheap enough to use .

Some goog mlf info from UC Davis
http://lfbisson.ucdavis.edu/PDF/VEN124 Section 4.pdf


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## DaveL (Mar 22, 2013)

My head hurts


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## Turock (Mar 24, 2013)

Acid blend varies a lot in it's proportions, as I said. That;s why we look at it caerfully and choose the blend we want.

I agree with microbial stability---that was mentioned in the white paper I read. However, all I can say is that we've used it successfully for 23 years. Yep--the profile it produces might be artificial---maybe that's why our friends like our Niagara over anyone else's!!! I think this was the gist of this thread--that you can produce any profile in your wines that you would like. 

White papers give you the absolute science on the subject. However, I've found that some of our successful practices disagree with what they have said. I can think of one major one!!!! I know that in these forums, "best practices" is what should be stated. But I have no problem when success thru experience sometimes goes against the convention of "best practice."


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## wineman2013 (Mar 24, 2013)

With forums it's often about what applies in the widest variety of circumstances and reduces risk.

I doubt 95 percent of people here have even tasted a niagra wine let alone made one.
What works with a lightly musky scented native cross breed labrusca wine like niagra doesn't apply to vinifera or a lot of other wines .

Using acid blend may very well be the best choice for a native grape grown in your location and to your particular pallet , but that doesn't translate to it being the best or even a good choice for those working with more common grapes and a goal to make a more universal style wine while minimizing risk.


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## Turock (Mar 25, 2013)

Yes Wineman---I agree with that statement. You have to know your grape and understand the procedures you're going to use on it--like MLF,etc.


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