# Metallic Taste in all Reds?



## Sudz (Dec 29, 2017)

I've been brewing and making wine for about 7 years. Beers are great, white wines are good but, I've never made a good red wine. My reds, mostly from high end kits from various mfg, all exhibit the same metallic taste at some level. They all are clear and bright with good color and have no identifying issues I've been able to discover. The whites have never exhibited this issue. This characteristic flaw does diminish with time but it never goes away totally. 

Any thoughts on what would cause this metallic taste unique to red kits? My reds made from fresh grapes do not have this trait.


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## Snowcreek (Dec 29, 2017)

Is there anything that you use in your red kits that you don't use in your other wines? 

I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but there are many more experienced folks that I'm sure will respond before too long.


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## salcoco (Dec 29, 2017)

many things can be different between grape wine and kit wine. tannin, acid level, ph plus the chemical used. if possible ,I would try a red wine kit without use of sorbate first to determine if that is the metallic taste. bench trials with different acid levels and even tannin levels may be fruitful. experiment with different additives as mentioned to pin point the problem.


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## Sudz (Dec 29, 2017)

Snowcreek, nothing in my process is different, just the ingredients in the kits. Salcoco, may have a point with the sorbate or other chems. Sorbate is used in the whites as well so I would expect to find the metallic there as well but I don't.

Someone mentioned the kit reds are loaded with malic acid which may be a point I should consider. Not sure how to eliminate this however.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 29, 2017)

I think I might know what you’re talking about but difficult to describe. I wouldn’t say metallic. I call it “chemically”. A friend with a great palate who’s had every one of my kits describes as “rubbery/garden hose”. 
Whatever it is I taste it on all my kits too. Also on a white with red juice pack (SB rosè). It’s caused me to shy away from kits a little. 
Your right it does diminish in time, but needing to wait two or three years to enjoy an “8 week kit” (or at least hesitant to give out early) is a real PIA. Aging in a barrel might get you there quicker 
There was one batch that was absolutely amazing with no artificial taste. Pinot WE world vineyard 1 gal. I’m thinking since it was just a 1 gal (easily discarded and forgotten) and aging 1 yr in bulk may have actually aged quicker with the smaller volume
The next kit I do, Nebbiolo, i’m going as natural as possible. No chems. ILess so2. And I’m not going to be scared to splash rack throughout or if is there a little bit of headspace here and there. Also no bs oak, planning to have a small barrel in time for some of this batch. Who knows? Maybe I’ll make the best damn kit Nebbiolo ever! 
At the end of the day ya gotta remember these are kits, and not the same stuff we are buying off the shelves. I’m also likely to take my first crack at frozen must sometime soon


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## salcoco (Dec 30, 2017)

malic acid is added to wine kits to give the balance desired by the manufacturer. if you try to get rid of it in a kit you risk getting a flabby wine. your taste might be what many others call a "kit" taste. Sorbate still may be the culprit , try the next one without using it.


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## balatonwine (Dec 30, 2017)

I make only one red wine, from gapes I grow, and it has a "metallic" taste when young. The taste ages out. IMHO, there really is no such thing as a fast *and* good red wine. They all have to age. And using fresh grapes can matter.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 30, 2017)

Ive drank young wine from juice and grapes my entire adult life. I’m very familiar with how it tastes at different points of the process. But That’s different. That’s Waiting for a taste to develop into something more pleasant. This is waiting for a taste to be eliminated. —- I’ve noticed wine from grapes, juice, and kits all age differently with unique tastes along the way. 
And for the winemaker it’s difficult. Because your tasting at its peak, checking for it as it dissipates- always aware. But tasted by anyone else later in the process, they’d likely not notice it as something “that doesn’t belong”. 
I’m half tempted to send out a bottle to someone with a more defined palate for further analysis. How much $ to send a package from US to Hungary? Lol


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## balatonwine (Dec 31, 2017)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> I’m half tempted to send out a bottle to someone with a more defined palate for further analysis. How much $ to send a package from US to Hungary? Lol



I am sure there are excellent palates at this forum that are closer than me who can assist with such advise. 

But to answer seriously: I honestly do not know wine import rules into the EU, if it can be done direct by mail or if requires an importer. But you can always stick a bottle in your luggage to share, fly over the pond, and come for a visit.


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## jbo_c (Feb 12, 2019)

Resurrecting an old thread, but the first post is exactly my experience. - wine from grapes fine, whites from kits fine, reds from kits have a distinct and distracting off flavor that age can minimize but never seems to go away entirely. It has kept me from making kits for years and I’m back to try again.

I’m focusing on degassing as my expected culprit. Did you ever find a solution?

Still would like to find someone local to exchange wines and thoughts with to help me eliminate the problem. Many people have success with kits and they fair well in competitions, so it must be me or something I’m doing.

Jbo


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## salcoco (Feb 12, 2019)

as suggested previously the use of sorbate can give an off taste that some winemakers can discern. could that be the case here? I saw quite a few suggestions above hear you tried any?


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## jbo_c (Feb 12, 2019)

I’ve skipped the Sorbate and still gotten it, so that’s not the issue. Aged to 5 years and only very slightly diminished so age isn’t the issue. Never changed additives, but only used what’s in the kits, so I don’t think that’s the issue.

I’ve never tried monkeying with the acid or tannin levels. Like the OP suggested, seems like that would be covering it up more than getting rid of it.

If other people can make kits work, it seems like surely I could too. I’m hitting degassing with a vengeance this time around. If that isn’t it, I’m out of ideas until I can do some tastings with somebody who has a good history with kits.

Thanks for the reply.

Jbo


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## Sudz (Feb 12, 2019)

jbo_c said:


> Resurrecting an old thread, but the first post is exactly my experience. - wine from grapes fine, whites from kits fine, reds from kits have a distinct and distracting off flavor that age can minimize but never seems to go away entirely. It has kept me from making kits for years and I’m back to try again.
> 
> I’m focusing on degassing as my expected culprit. Did you ever find a solution?
> 
> ...



I never solved my problem. 

Degassing isn't the answer unfortunately. I ran experiments applying various levels of degassing with no detectable differences. I tried to focus on the specific differences from my reds and whites with regard to ingredients, additives, and process. I ruled out everything I could observe or measure other than grape skins. I've tasted wine from several lower quality kits and did notice the offending taste wasn't as significant. I did note the most significant difference between the kits was the addition of a red grape skin pack which is not a factor on white kits. However, I gave up making wine from kits before exploring this aspect further. Sad, because I had really enjoyed the hobby, Just not the results so much.


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## jbo_c (Feb 12, 2019)

Thanks very much for the feedback Sudz. I’m afraid I’ll end up in the same place as you, but I’m holding out hope.

Fresh grapes aren’t available in the Atlanta area that I can find and frozen grapes/must are prohibitively priced.

Wish I could find some folks to swap some kit wines out with so I can see if it’s my palate or my methods. At least if I knew for a fact it was my palate, I wouldn’t feel so bad about giving up.

I keep thinking too many people do well in competitions for it to be a problem with the kits. I’ve never made a kit red that would get more than a passing glance in a competition. I keep hoping one day I can meet Tim Vandergrift with a bottle at a meet and greet and he can tell me how to solve all my problems. 

Jbo


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## jbo_c (Feb 12, 2019)

Interesting that, if I’m reading you right, you think it could be the grape skins. Most seem to think the skins kits minimize what they perceive as kit taste. 

I have detected it in both high end kits with skins and ‘lower end’ kits at 10-12 liters and no skins.

The kits I’ve done that exhibited the least of it were the Cellar Craft Showcase kits. But it was still enough to be too distracting to drink.

Jbo


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## Sudz (Feb 12, 2019)

I wouldn't place too much thought on my grape skins comment. I threw that out there because it was the only thing unique to my red wine efforts that I could identify and had not tested. I'm certain there are things I couldn't observe which may account for this issue. One possibility could be potential differences in juice preparations with respect to pasturation or process... not something I can see or measure without knowing much more than I do.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 12, 2019)

I don't notice an off taste in my red kit wines. I often wonder, if the perceived kit taste phenomena has more to do with someone saying this is a kit wine and folks believe there is a kit taste issue. Suppose you were given two bottles, one a kit, aged properly, made by directions, etc. The other a $10 of so bottle. If you didn't know which was which, would you be able to tell.


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## jbo_c (Feb 12, 2019)

I could absolutely tell the ones I’ve made. My wife knows immediately if I made it even if she doesn’t see me pour. I’ve tried sneaking mine in on her. 

Jbo


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## Sudz (Feb 12, 2019)

I gather most folks out there don't taste it or they wouldn't be selling kit wines. I do know my wife and I taste it. I've only encountered this taste in one commercial wine one time. Trust me. I wish it wasn't there because I do enjoy wine making. Unfortunately, we can tell the difference between our kit efforts and store bought. I do concede that the ability "or curse" to taste this issue may be unique to specific people for whatever reason. Just my luck I guess...


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## Sudz (Feb 12, 2019)

jbo_c said:


> I could absolutely tell the ones I’ve made. My wife knows immediately if I made it even if she doesn’t see me pour. I’ve tried sneaking mine in on her.
> 
> Jbo



Ha Ha... I've done the same thing and she catches me every time.


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## Trick (Feb 12, 2019)

To understand the difference, you need to go to the fundamental for find out why the kit red is different. Commercial White wine is fermented from pressed juice, which is similar to white kit wine making. That is why the kit white is close to the commercial counterparts. However, Reds are the different story. Commercial red wine is made from skin maceration, which uses alcohol to soak out the flavor (at least in majority). But kit red is very different. It first undergoes a series of chemical/physical processing such as heating, vacuum evaporation, enzyme treatment etc. to extract the flavor from skin without alcohol. (May use a process called flash extraction, I guess). No surprise the result product will be different. Just think about this: If this process were good and can achieve a good result comparable with conventional approach, why the commercial guys don't use this approach widely and join us to make kit wine (lol)? There should be some deficiency inherent to this approach, such as losing or change aroma.
That can also explain why the high end red kid comes with skin.


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## jbo_c (Feb 12, 2019)

Actually, according to the esteemed Tim Vandergrift, many large companies that make everyday plonk, do just that to maintain continuous supply.

Jbo


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## Trick (Feb 12, 2019)

i heard some commertial guys use this flash method to treat some low quality crops to cover some moldy flavour.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 12, 2019)

There are at least five wineries that I know of that make wine from basically the same kits that you and I can buy. They are Winery sized, in that they make 30-60 gallons, instead of 6 gallons.


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## bstnh1 (Feb 13, 2019)

Is it possible that something in the water is reacting with something in the red kits to produce the taste you're referring to?


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## salcoco (Feb 13, 2019)

have you tried changing the water used to reconstitute the concentrate? I just typed mine at same time as bstnh1.


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## jbo_c (Feb 13, 2019)

That’s a good question, but yes I’ve tried changing the water too. I’ve used city, bottled spring, and deep well water with the same results.

I will say, I thought I had a batch of EP super Tuscan degassed over the weekend, but I hit it again last night and got out lots more. I’m still open to the potential that degassing inadequately is part of the problem. Some of the faults fit.

Jbo


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## Brian55 (Feb 13, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> There are at least five wineries that I know of that make wine from basically the same kits that you and I can buy. They are Winery sized, in that they make 30-60 balloons, instead of 6 gallons.


How much wine does one balloon hold?


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## Dom Lausic (Feb 13, 2019)

I'm wondering in Potassium Metabisulfite (K-Meta) could be the issue. If I'm not mistaken, the 4 gram pack that comes with the kit raises the ppm of sulfites rather high to ensure the wine is protected. I've typically added a healthy dose of K-Meta to my wines just before bulk aging in barrels. And when I get in there monthly to top up and taste, early on, they can have a slight taste to what I'd describe as "metallic". Tends to go away over time in the barrel. Especially because I think the splash racking helps dissipate it a bit. 

Wonder if this could be what you're tasting??


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## cmason1957 (Feb 13, 2019)

Brian55 said:


> How much wine does one balloon hold?


I should know better than to use my silly tablet. The odd thing is that it auto-changed one and not the other.


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## Rice_Guy (Feb 14, 2019)

Trick said:


> To understand the difference, you need to go to the fundamental for find out why the kit red is different. Commercial White wine is fermented from pressed juice, which is similar to white kit wine making. That is why the kit white is close to the commercial counterparts. However, Reds are the different story. Commercial red wine is made from skin maceration, which uses alcohol to soak out the flavor (at least in majority). But kit red is very different. It first undergoes a series of chemical/physical processing such as heating, vacuum evaporation, enzyme treatment etc. to extract the flavor from skin without alcohol. (May use a process called flash extraction, I guess). No surprise the result product will be different. Just think about this: If this process were good and can achieve a good result comparable with conventional approach, why the commercial guys don't use this approach widely and join us to make kit wine (lol)? There should be some deficiency inherent to this approach, such as losing or change aroma.
> That can also explain why the high end red kid comes with skin.


Reds and whites will be done on the same vacuum evaporator to produce the concentrated juice. (the equipment is fairly expensive) Small suppliers may use older scraped surface hardware but again they will do both reds and whites in the same processing equipment. If they are real small they may schedule the day going from low color/flavor juice to a rose to a red within the 8 or 12 hour day. Drying skins would be a tray or belt drier with hot air.
The main difference is going to be the tannins/ phenolics/ etc which come from the skins.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 14, 2019)

Sudz said:


> I gather most folks out there don't taste it or they wouldn't be selling kit wines. I do know my wife and I taste it. I've only encountered this taste in one commercial wine one time. Trust me. I wish it wasn't there because I do enjoy wine making. Unfortunately, we can tell the difference between our kit efforts and store bought. I do concede that the ability "or curse" to taste this issue may be unique to specific people for whatever reason. Just my luck I guess...



I've had that experience (metallic taste/nose) with probably 40% of my red kits. I can't trace it back to a single thing. It's one reason that the kit I started last month is the first red kit I've done in a few years.


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 14, 2019)

bstnh1 said:


> Is it possible that something in the water is reacting with something in the red kits to produce the taste you're referring to?



With the exception of the little bit of warm water used to dissolve the bentonite, I use bottled spring water. Can't imagine that would cause an issue.


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## Trick (Feb 14, 2019)

Rice_Guy said:


> Reds and whites will be done on the same vacuum evaporator to produce the concentrated juice. (the equipment is fairly expensive) Small suppliers may use older scraped surface hardware but again they will do both reds and whites in the same processing equipment. If they are real small they may schedule the day going from low color/flavor juice to a rose to a red within the 8 or 12 hour day. Drying skins would be a tray or belt drier with hot air.
> The main difference is going to be the tannins/ phenolics/ etc which come from the skins.



It makes sense. The heat involved in the process (like cooking the skin) might also be a factor. (Just guessing).
I can tell the difference between the kit and the store bought wine. But I am ok with the kit flavor.


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## Brian55 (Feb 14, 2019)

Trick said:


> I can tell the difference between the kit and the store bought wine. But I am ok with the kit flavor.


Especially when the kit wine flavor is better, for less than half the price, often times a third or fourth of the price. As you move up into pricier wines, commercial wines will tend to win.


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## Mismost (Feb 14, 2019)

bstnh1 said:


> Is it possible that something in the water is reacting with something in the red kits to produce the taste you're referring to?



Exactly my thoughts. I started out with beer and they said that any water that tastes good will make good beer. BULL. I have great tasting well water that is run through a water softner and all my beers had a "flavor line", not terrible but shouldn't be there. I finally went to carbon filtered, UV sanitized water and the taste went away.

When I started making wine kits, I just using the same water, no problems.

My other thought....are you using the same bucket every time? Neighbor lady was getting a funk....bought a new bucket, problem solved.


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## masic2000 (Feb 15, 2019)

I've been using fresh grape must, from Mosti Mondiale, for years here up in Canada and I too have that metallic taste, but only when the wine is very young, like 3-6 months. After a couple of years that off taste is gone. The only thing I add is K-meta after the secondary and every 3-months during racking. No other chemicals and no MF. I will be trying this out on a kit this year just to see what a kit can offer.


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## Keith5 (Feb 15, 2019)

I am clearing my first Cab Sauvignon 6 gallon kit and 5 gallons of blueberry now, PER INSTRUCTIONS. Idk yet if I have this metallic taste issue. After reading and thinking on this, I may try filtering my water prior to the next kit through my Buon Vino minijet with a size 1 filter prior to starting next fermentation on new kit, just to see if that helps. I will be using bottled artesian well water commercially available. 
Does filtering post secondary help minimize the metallic taste? 

Someone else says time/aging helps. Maybe it’s just how red wines do what they do? They need time to evolve into what they are supposed to be, like our teenage children.
Metallic aftertaste makes me think more of kmeta and/or Sorbate levels and/or potential acid imbalance rather than water issues. But what do I know,lol . 
This is why we don’t earn our living doing this. 

I do believe this idea.....wine kits do Not equal fresh crushed grapes and 30 years of experience in traditional winemaking techniques. 
Ex- I have had homemade wines made in Croatia from grapes grown on the patio, using old world basic winemaking processes that were VERY good. Better than kit wines but also very inconsistent from year to year and location to location. I’d bet same experience from small towns in Italy.
Maybe the US FDA or regulatory body for our wine kits create a step in process that makes it different? Idk.
It’s FUN to create the product and Solve the mysteries that evolve, dontcha think? Let’s just keep making wine. It’s fun. You guys are teaching me ALOT. 
Thank you for that.


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## jbo_c (Feb 15, 2019)

Don’t assume you’ll taste it. Apparently most do not. For me the jury is still out on whether it’s a palate issue or a winemaking issue. I have to admit that I think it’s a palate issue, but I really hope to find it is a process fault that I can fix.

Jbo


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