# Any New Vineyards planned?



## grapeman (Jan 4, 2009)

Hi everyone. 


It is thetime of year when outside activities need to take the backseat for a while until it warms up again. Many of us making our own wines like the thought of using our own product to do so. Countless hours are spent sifting through the catalogs dreaming of the next great crop growing in the garden......


Have you been dreaming of starting a few vines in the backyard or maybe a short row or two? If so I am sure you have a million questions and may be shy to ask. Don't be shy. There are lots of us here that have started our own little slice of heaven and our vineyards range from a couple vines upwards.


Tell us here if you have any desires to start your own. If you already have, take a few minutes to share with the new ones your experiences. 


Good luck and fun growing!


----------



## Wade E (Jan 4, 2009)

One of these years!


----------



## Waldo (Jan 4, 2009)

Would love to start a few vines of a Shiraz but not sure how they would fare down here


----------



## Rocky_Top (Jan 4, 2009)

Waldo, other than muscadine,Whatvine can we growin the south?


----------



## grapeman (Jan 4, 2009)

Waldo you might be able to try them there if Pierce's disease isn't too bad. I think you are just far enough north to be past the worst of it. I would give it a shot. What do you have to lose - just a few vines. They will grow to Zone 7 and I believe that is what you have where you are at. 


Check out this page
http://littlerock.about.com/cs/othercities/a/aawine.htm


According to it Chateaux Aux Arc (Ozark) is the largest grower of Zinfandel in the state- so at least some are grown there.


----------



## K&GB (Jan 4, 2009)

Someday! Until then, I can dream and live vicariously through photos and descriptions from others....






I did try to plant a couple of table grape vines last year just for fun, but they didn't fare too well. Who knows, they may come back in the spring. The climate here is very hot, and the soil very alkaline. And I do just have a small yard. But who knows where my travels will take me next. Hopefully not Japan!


----------



## Dean (Jan 4, 2009)

it took a long time to come to grips with the fact that while I have a few vines, my passion is for turning the fruit into wine and not making the fruit. I think, for me, that I can only excel in 1 area, so I choose winemaking. I'll gladly purchase grapes from the vineyard owners. We actually have quite a few large farms out in this area that have very high quality fruit. They allow small winemakers like me to purchase from them in small lots (20 lugs or less).


----------



## JWMINNESOTA (Jan 4, 2009)

Like many, I just don't have enough room to grow vines. And if I did, I may very well be like Dean.Fortunately, forum member Farmer has some that will be three this year, another plus is I work rotating shift, while he is a Mon-Fri guy. So I will be more than willing and ableto "help keep an eye on things" for him. So glad he expanded into wine instead of just beer!


----------



## NorthernWinos (Jan 4, 2009)

No more new vines up here on de-frozen-tundra....Think the very hardy ones are the only ones we can safely grow.

Scouting out some hardy Black Raspberries....





-16°F at the moment....got to a high of -12° today down to -30°F tonight....

Hopefully all the 'Wine Garden' plants we are trying to grow up here in the frozen North will winter over...

Only the strong survive!!!!


----------



## gaudet (Jan 4, 2009)

Cynthiana Norton grows well in Louisiana, so I think it would do well near you Rocky Top.


----------



## Rocky_Top (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks gaudet, 
I might try that. 


Northern Winos, ........................I have a new respect for Minnesota folk!!! That is cold !!!!


----------



## Appfan (Jan 4, 2009)

I am thinking of some fairly cold hardy Cabernet at my Dad's place in the NC mountians. 


Any idea yield lb per vine?


Here is a great website:


http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/hort_sci/fruit/winegrapes.html


----------



## farmer (Jan 4, 2009)

Since I am in the balmy part of Minnesota ( currently -1° high today 5° tonight only -10°) I have been looking to add a few more varieties to my vineyard. 
MyFrontenac and Frontenac Gris will be in their third growing season and my Marquette, La Crescent and Sabevoiswill bein their second season.


I am looking at adding2 or 3more varieties, to have more choices for blending when wine making time does come. 


I started two varieties of black raspberries last spring and would like to add black currents to the mix this spring. 


Careful there JW we got a new dog this summer and she has been doing a pretty good job keeping thecrittersout of the vineyard


----------



## Travisty (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm still planning on planting about 12 vines this coming spring.


----------



## Appfan (Jan 5, 2009)

Waldo said:


> Would love to start a few vines of a Shiraz but not sure how they would fare down here




Waldo, maybe you have seen this site, but here it is in any case:


http://www.uark.edu/depts/ifse/grapeprog/wine.htm


----------



## Waldo (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks appfan...I had not seen it


----------



## fivebk (Jan 6, 2009)

Hi everyone , I am new to wine making with only two batches started to date. This last summer I decided to start making my own wines and since I live on a small acreage I decided to take the plunge full bore. I have ordered 27 vines for spring 2009 delivery. Before cold weather set in I had all my trellis poles set . Since I live in NW missouri I had to find cold hardy grapes . I have 8 each of St Croix , Vignoles , and Frontenec Gris , coming and 3 vines of Edelweis since I already have 3 of these started . last spring I planted the 3 edelweis vines and in one season they grew to the top wire and 5 feet each way . I did alot of reading before I started all this and am very excited to start this project . I really enjoy this site and know that if I run into any snags along the way that there are a whole lot of folks on this site willing and able to help


----------



## grapeman (Jan 6, 2009)

fivebk I think it would be time to start your own thread in the Home Vineyards section. Tell us all about what you have done, plan to do and above all else WALD LOVES PICTURES (the rest of us do too!)!!!!


----------



## BDKS (Jan 6, 2009)

Not exactly a vineyard. I have a veggie garden and the catalogs are starting to show up. I have this long row behind the garage that is about 30 ft long by 6 foot wide that is currently grass. I keep looking at different fruits. grapes, blueberry, blackberry, raspberry. There is a neat cherry bush instead of a tall tree.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 6, 2009)

BDKS check out NW's Winegarden Thread. She grows all kinds of things for wine. Dare to dream..............................


----------



## jobe05 (Jan 10, 2009)

rrawhide just sent me a huge bunch of Syrah and some Merlot cuttings from California. I'll get these planted tomorrow, some in the garden to root and some in Pots inside, in a more controlled environment.

Thanks Rick! I appreciate it.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 10, 2009)

Hope they root and grow well for you there Jobe. Most of us aren't warm enough to grow those varieties. You may also lose them in a few years when the phylloxera gets too bad and kills the roots. Most of the locations in the US need rootstock resistant to it to survive more than two or three years. That's why most of the vinifera is sold grafted. Some locations on the west coast don't have the problem yet and that is one of the reasons why plant material isn't supposed to ship into or out of California without inspection. Our native American varieties and hybrids are resistant to the root louse (phylloxera) and don't need grafting. That is the reason the Wine industry was almost wiped out in the 1800's. Some of the insect pest was imported into France on vines brought in. Be cautious and monitor their growth . I hope you have a good spot and don't get them as a problem.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 10, 2009)

speaking of phylloxera......i have seen it on some of my foliage here and there and usually i just rip off those leaves....has anyone here who is growing hybrids or native american grapes lost any vines ever from this louse or maybe know of someone who has lost a vine or two?


----------



## gaudet (Jan 10, 2009)

Been meaning to post here. I am planning a tiny vineyard in my back yard. I set up four 20' trellis lines for my 4 muscadine vines( 1 carlos, 1 dixie red, and 2 ison variety). I planted this all back in December and buried it under hay until the springtime. I will take some pictures of it and post them soon. But its really only 4 posts in the ground surrounded by hay right now. Thanks to Cracked Cork, I found a vineyard that is selling elderberry plants. I bought 4 varieties to plant in my front yard along the fence line. (John, York, Adams, and Nova) They will be shipped out on Feb 23. We also have two more citrus trees that need to go into the ground. (a blood orange tree and a key lime tree)


----------



## bruno (Jan 11, 2009)

I have on order 400 Marquette, 300 Frontenac, 300 Swenson Red, 220 Brianna, and 350 Cayuga white which will be delivered in May. I have recruited all my family and friends to help with the planting. Sure hope they all show up.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 11, 2009)

I see this is you r first post so Welcome Bruno!


That is an ambitious project Bruno. Looks like an acre and a half to two acres there. Fill us in when you can on particulars. Where are you located? It looks like you prefer reds a bit. I think you have been bitten by the vineyard bug! Great luck to you! Start your own thread here as you go and keep us filled in.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 11, 2009)

gaudet you will have yourseldf a nice selection of fruit there to work with soon. Don't forget the pictures!


----------



## NorthernWinos (Jan 11, 2009)

bruno....Welcome...
You have a HUGE undertaking ahead of yourself....

Those look like pretty hardy grapes....Are you in the Northern part of the country???

Keep us Posted on your progress and intension.


----------



## bruno (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm in Rose City, about 65 miles north of Saginaw. Yes, it gets cold here so all vines are rated very hardy. I have approx 2.5 acres I will plant. Have spent all last summer prepping my future vineyard. It's an old corn field, last planted about 15 years ago. Had to first round-up all the quack grass, till it under, then work up the field using a 2 blade plow, 9' rake and 4' roto tiller. At the end of the summer, it was looking pretty good. N to S gentle slop, so it should be ideal. Also strung about a mile of wire making a 7.5' deer fence. So far, not a single deer has invaded.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 12, 2009)

You really have been doing your homework and vineyard preparations. Even a deer fence before planting. Great job. I look forward to reading more in the future.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2009)

Bruno sounds great....your similar to me in acreage and varieties and quantity....bone up on 1 more large topic now in addition to what you already have done......spraying....equipment, products, pests and diseases and most of all get a schedule written down ....in all likeliehood you will have a free pass on many issues for about a month or two or even three..it depends on the weather in your area this upcoming season..nevertheless...hearken to what i am saying...get what you need before you need it...Gaudet the same goes for you......write down a spray schedule on a calendar


trust me...when you plant your vines they will look beautiful...when you water them..they will look beautiful...when you weed thenthey will look beautiful...when you fertilize they will look beautiful...when you prune and train they will look beautiful....and then one day/night in ?month? you will spot powdery mildew, maybe downy mildew...maybe anthracnose...maybe grape cane girdler..may jap beetles in a thousand score and like the old Aamco commercial which said you can pay me now (cheap maintenance) or pay me later ( a new tranny) you will one day have to pay the piper


you will...yes you....you the next person in a long line of wine grape dreamers (like me)...you will


do the due diligence w the pest and disease issue now and it will remain just that an issue.....dont do it and it will without a doubt become a wasted summer


write down a schedule

write down a schedule

write down a schedule

write down a schedule

write down a schedule


are you reapeating after me yet?


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2009)

"So far, not a single deer has invaded. "


and bank robbers dont rob an empty bank!


----------



## Jack on Rainy (Jan 12, 2009)

Northern Winos said:


> No more new vines up here on de-frozen-tundra....Think the very hardy ones are the only ones we can safely grow.
> 
> Scouting out some hardy Black Raspberries....


NW,
I don't think grapes fare very well in our country either. Cold winters and shallow soil depths with bedrock very close to the surface. I sure would be interested in some hardy blackberries tho. If you find a source, would you send it along please? (BTW the finest balckberries I have ever seen are out in Dean's country. They are all OVER the place and they are beautiful)


----------



## NorthernWinos (Jan 12, 2009)

We do have some vines....

Our soil is black sandy clay...very nice.

Vines...
Extremely to Very Hardy Beta, Valiant, King of the North for reds [purples].

Louise Swenson, Prairie Star, Baltic Amber for whites...

Have a row of Swenson Red and Edelweiss that grow on panels and we lay down and cover with straw... 

Have a row of young Frontenac and Frontenac Gris let them hang on the wires to truly test them...before I get too attached.

We use to live down in the central part of the state.....Pequot Lakes....had Black Raspberries growing in the woods and pasture. Much to my surprise I see a nursery in NY selling Pequot Black raspberries...I sent an order off today for 12 plants...plus will try to go down and dig some plants this spring from an old neighbor...

Here is the link to St. Lawrence Nursery...Blk Raspberries at the bottom of the page...
http://www.sln.potsdam.ny.us/raspberries.html

They are a Black Raspberry [the core stays on the plant when picked] where as Blackberries retain the core for a firmer berry.

Always wondered how they'd do under cultivation...Hope they have them in stock.

ByTheWay, I contacted the fellow in Pequot Lakes [Bramble Berry Farm] He did not have any plants locally for sale this spring...so went with Plan A and ordered them from SLN.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2009)

NW tell me your opinion about the wine or just the grapes from the Prairie Star vines


----------



## NorthernWinos (Jan 12, 2009)

Al F...so far I have just tasted the grapes...threw them in with others for a blended wine last fall....not enough of any for a batch.

They were very crisp and had a distinct flavor....maybe citrusy...
They claim to have brittle vines...break off easily...kind of noticed that with the few I have...
They also claim they are good blended with Louise Swenson....Hope someday to have enough for a nice blended wine of just the two.


----------



## grapeman (Jan 12, 2009)

Al the Prairie Star at Willsboro had terrible breakage in the spring - which was really a shame. As a result only a few vines had a decent crop. Those that had them did really nice. They are a very attractive thin long cluster with medium sized berries. The flavor is definitely citrusy and very pleasant. I haven't tasted wine from them yet, but we were able to send enough grapes to Cornell to make a 6 gallon batch. We will be having some kind of tastings at this spring/summer events. Dates are yet to be determined.
Numbers from the Prairie Star- berry Weight 2.01 grams, Brix 19.2, pH 3.58, and TA 9.5. Check page 5 of this file from Cornell. Those pictures were taken from the harvest date of St. Croix and Prairie Star.
http://blogs.cce.cornell.edu/grapes/files/2008/10/veraison-to-harvest-2008-_5.pdf


I think if the vines were trained to allow for early tying without bending the shoots that it could do very well here in the Northeast. They are one of the best tasting whites available- too bad they have some seeds. Disease pressure was easily managed.


Hope this info is helpful, even if I am not NW


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks to both...all of it s very helpful in a cumulative way.


Rich, since you have a fair amount of experience w hybrids etc...what are your thoughts regarding the brix ranges in these grapes which are weighted in the 17-22 range, although there are exceptions which reach higher levels?


what are your thoughts on the impact it has on making a quality wine?


----------



## grapeman (Jan 12, 2009)

Most of the hybrids come in at about 20 or higher. If you are looking at the chart in the Cornell bulletin, most of the ones listed were not harvested yet at those brix levels. When thy are harvested a bit low, you can add a bit of sugar to raise the brix up. Most of the low ones are whites and you don't want the alcohol levels as high in those anyways. If they are ripened thoroughly, the body is pretty good even though sugars may be a bit low. Vinifera growers might cringe at the mention of adding a bit of sugar, but it is accepted in northern grown grapes. 


I guess it all comes down to personal prefeernces and methods.


----------



## bruno (Jan 13, 2009)

Al, good advice, thanks. I'm ready with the sprayer, I purchased a 30-gallon spayer last year to kill the quack grass. Plus have attended some seminars on starting a vineyard which included a section on all the various pests, diseases, etc. As many problems as you can encounter, the experts claim it's not as bad as it sounds, as mother nature will take care of most of them herself, as long as sound growing principles are applied.


----------



## Waldo (Jan 13, 2009)

.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 13, 2009)

bruno said:


> Al, good advice, thanks. I'm ready with the sprayer, I purchased a 30-gallon spayer last year to kill the quack grass. Plus have attended some seminars on starting a vineyard which included a section on all the various pests, diseases, etc. As many problems as you can encounter, the experts claim it's not as bad as it sounds, as mother nature will take care of most of them herself, as long as sound growing principles are applied.




Bruno...if you use that same thirty gallon sprayer make sure you clean that herbicide out real good...also with a thirty gallon sprayer on two or 2.5 acres you can expect a pass on the first go'round or two...but by time the foliage gets heavy you will be up to five fill ups per application...+ or - depending on your ability to get good coverage. That is a lot of fill ups, trust me.....i have a fifty and i cannot stand my 2-2.5 although its just enough for a food or bathroom break....


What type of sprayer is it?


As far as it not being a bad as it sounds......au contraire......that is only true if you do not have a plan and schedule in place....then it IS as bad as it sounds, more so w disease pressure than pest, in my opinion.


Remember this..it is true that plants are meant to grow successfully...that is to reproduce and adapt to nature...grapes are just the same...but...diseases and pests also are part of nature and meant to succeed....and one of the things they use to succeed are your grapes.....its just that they do not know that they are yours


----------



## grapeman (Jan 13, 2009)

bruno said:


> Al, good advice, thanks. I'm ready with the sprayer, I purchased a 30-gallon spayer last year to kill the quack grass. Plus have attended some seminars on starting a vineyard which included a section on all the various pests, diseases, etc. As many problems as you can encounter, the experts claim it's not as bad as it sounds, as mother nature will take care of most of them herself, as long as sound growing principles are applied.




I will second Al's comments. First off, the seminar leaders don't want to make it sound TOO bad, or they will discourage everyone from trying. You want to be well prepared ahead of time when it comes to disease. Coming from a fairly humid summertime region, you will likely have a fair amount of disease pressure. Go ahead and get a pesticide license. The learning process alone will be worth it. 


I also have one of those 30 gallon spot sprayers and it works great for Rounup application. Yoy can get through the first year with it for disease and insect control also, but plan on replacing it with two years for better application coverage. As you get into this more, I can give you a basic plan for a sprayer to get more thorough coverage - it will just be adapted to the type of equipemnt you have.


----------



## OilnH2O (Jan 14, 2009)

This is great that Bruno is bringing up some of these old topics -- and now we get to "review" them in the dark of winter! It reminds me I'll have to think about spraying this year. Although I have to say that my deer fence was close to 8' all around and -- Viola! (that's French, btw



) one day I had a prune-job I hadn't anticipated! My neighbor said they didn't even take a running leap!


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 14, 2009)

amazing....i wonder if this idea will work......there has to be an angle of jump that is needed as well as a distance needed to make that 8 ft high jump....i have never heard anyone discuss anything but height of fence needed to solve the deer issue......well here is my idea...why not a double fence? a cheaper wire fence a few feet away from the larger fence such as the eight foot fence mentioned....this smaller fence woule be one layer further out from the tall fence and used to create a greater distance for the deer to leap and just high enough...maybe 2, 3, 4, 5 feet high.


I am thinking the deer may be able to get over that main fence but only if they have an unimpeded area for take off...


maybe even a shrub type of fence would work


----------



## bruno (Jan 15, 2009)

Al, I have heard that double fences work - maybe just a single strand in front of the regular fence. Can't remember where I saw that. Regarding my local deer, I live just outside a small town and my property is surrounded by corn fields and several houses. There are lots of deer, and they almost seem tame at times. I have had footprints right accross my front porch, and they seemed to run all over my 5 acre property each night. After I completed my single-strand fence, the first night it looks like a deer tried to walk or run through it, as I noted a severe sag the next morning. So I purchased a roll of the yellow construction worning tape and hung streamers all around the vineyard. After that, it seems like our local deer realized the fence was there and I have had no incursions since the fence was completed, almost 4 months ago. 


As far as my sprayer, it's a 30 gal Fimco I that has also has a 15' hose. Bought it at Tractor Supply.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 15, 2009)

Bruno, if i do a deer fence i will do a double as well...i have not done one as of yet.


As far as the fimco...i have one also.....its a 50 abd for my 45 rows which are 200 and 250 in length it takes two fills early in the year when vegetation is lighter...it progresses to 2 and half and then even three later in the year.


I hooked up a hose to it as well as the jets that it has, so that i can use it esp early in the season so that i do not waste what i am using...i expect that i put on more nozzles that my gallonage will go up....eventually i would like to add a fan or just go for a small air blast


trust me on one thing if nothing else...its all about one thing *coverage*


----------



## NorthernWinos (Jan 15, 2009)

Probably be lots of new vineyards going in after this cold spell....


----------



## grapeman (Jan 15, 2009)

Northern Winos said:


> Probably be lots of new vineyards going in after this cold spell....




May not be new vineyards as such, but there will probably be a bunch of replacements put in. I'm sure glad there is global warming right now, because I don't think we would want it much colder or we will all need to move south!


----------



## farmer (Jan 15, 2009)

My vines were tested last night at -25º we will see how hardy they are.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 15, 2009)

what vines do you have Farmer?


----------



## farmer (Jan 15, 2009)

I have Frontenac, Frontenac Gris , Marquette , La Crescent , Sabrevois and Somerset Seedless. They are all suppose to be good to - 25 . That is why I planted them.


----------



## AlFulchino (Jan 15, 2009)

cool, i have all of them except for the Somerset....you should be fine assuming a good hardening off period occured


----------



## bruno (Jun 17, 2009)

It's been a while since I last reported. All 1500+ vines are in the ground and seem to be doing well. We sunk about 540 trellis posts and are now in the process of stringing wire. My weeds are well under control as I have used my 3 point tiller down the centers, and have spot sprayed in the rows with Credit Extra. It seems like it has been a long warm-up this spring. But with the recent week of warmer weather, my new vines are really starting to wake up and grow.


----------



## grapeman (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks for the update bruno. Might as well start your own post to track it's progress. Then you can give us some pictures and make it easy to follow.


There is one variety in your linup that maight be a bit tender from what I saw this year after a number of warm winters. Cayuga isn't all that hardy. At the test vineyard in Willsboro, which is right at the edge of Lake Champlain and stays a bit warmer, the Cayuga is the most visible loser in the cold battle. Those vines really stand out. One totally dead with no regrowth. The rest were pruned back of dead wood and look like ugly sticks. Of what wasn't pruned away, only about 20% buds of any kind survived, much less primaries. They will grow back, but the crop is definitely gonw for this year. I would have posted this last year before you had those vines, but didn't know it would be this bad at that time.


Give us some pictures!


----------



## OilnH2O (Jun 18, 2009)

Sounding like things are coming along, Bruno! Of course, besides pictures, I'm interested if the bank robbers...uh.. deer... have stayed out now that there are tender shoots beckoning!


----------



## grapeman (Jun 18, 2009)

Those critters are helping me select shoots to keep on the vines that froze bad this winter. They are sending up lush shoots from the trunk, nice and long thick and tender. There were too many and I will need to pull some off soon and tie up the rest. My helpers visit from time to time and are helping preselect which ones to keep. I can spot the nipped vines before their little hoofy prints!


----------



## AlFulchino (Jun 18, 2009)

i concur on the cayuga white....lots of budkill here...nice vine..nice grape...pretty disease resistant...but you need to puta winter coat on them


----------

