# Wine Cellar I need your advice and tips on building



## Sammyk (Feb 27, 2013)

We decided to have a wine cellar built. It will also double as a tornado shelter because our home has no basement and being an open style home with windows (23 of them) in every room there is really no place to go in the event of a tornado.
I have a contractor that is going to build it for us.

It is going to be built into a hill on the side of our garage. While the contractor (a former neighbor who still lives in our general area) has an idea how it should be built I need to know other specifics that are needed to make it successful. Since the hill is not quite high enough he is thinking he will need to dig about 2' deeper to get a portion of the cellar under ground.

We are thinking 10 x 10 and what he said to was save room the stairs would be on the outside with a landing on the bottom and a drain under the landing for rain fall. This would also be good to get our 2 large dogs down there in the event of a tornado who will climb regular stairs.

We have electricity in the garage so running electricity is not a problem. He is thinking one ceiling light and a couple of outlets - in case we need to run a dehumidifier or anything else electrical.
*
This will NOT be used to make wine but for storage and aging*. He seems to think it will stay around ground temperature of 55 degrees.

He is thinking cement would be poured on top of a gravel bed for a floor. On top of the hill he would pour a cement slab more or less to mark where the cellar is located and so cars don't park there since the area in next to the garage.

Since he is not familiar with wine cellars per say but has some ideas what needs to be done. I am asking those of you with knowledge on how to build a cellar and build it right the first time for your input.

Since the temperature will soon warm up here in NC and I need to get the wine I have made out of the house soon. He hopes to start next week.

Please tell me what should or should not be incorporated.

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas you can share.


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## ibglowin (Feb 27, 2013)

I have a very hard time believing that the "cellar" will be ~55 degrees in NC if its only two feet below ground. I would have a backup plan to add AC somehow just in case.


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## Sammyk (Feb 27, 2013)

While it is only 2' underground the hill will be replaced so it will be covered in red clay dirt. Do you think it needs to be dug deeper? 

I don' know that is why I am asking.


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## ibglowin (Feb 27, 2013)

How much dirt will be on the roof? What about the surrounding walls? What will the walls be made from? How thick? Even with 2 feet of dirt on top of the roof I just don't see how you will have anywhere close to 55 degrees (except maybe in the dead of winter).


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## Runningwolf (Feb 27, 2013)

Although I do not live in NC, my basement stays 63*-68* year round and one wall is exposed. That is without heating or cooling it.I would think it's going to be ok since the temperature will not fluctuate very much. Again I do not live down south so I really don't know what your cellar temps will be.


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## Sammyk (Feb 27, 2013)

Last summer we kept the wine in lidded Rubbermaid totes in the crawl space but it was too hard to get in and out of there. Mold grew on the Rubbermaids and on the outside of the carboys. A wet towel with a little bleach cleaned up the outside of the carboys. In the fall we moved everything inside to an upstairs bedroom.

The temperature stayed at around 66 degrees even in the heat of the summer which was in the 90's. That crawl space is huge 80' long by 30' wide with a dirt floor.

OK the reason I asked is WE don't know anything for sure on how to build this and are looking for advise on how to build the cellar/shelter.

OK so the hill is about 8' above ground level so he would dig out the hill and then down some, build the cellar/shelter and cover it back up. We estimated there would be 12 inches of dirt on top maybe a bit more and then a concrete pad.


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## Sammyk (Feb 27, 2013)

On the one side of the hill it slopes down to ground level so that is where the steps would be build going down into the cellar/shelter.


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## TheWineThief (Feb 28, 2013)

The vapor barrier is super important to prevent mold depending on your temperature difference. some good reading info here mostly for refrigerated storage

http://www.winecellarinnovations.com/learn/how-to-build-a-wine-cellar.htm


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## Sammyk (Feb 28, 2013)

Wine Thief we did read that article when we first started looking at our options. That article referred to building a cellar in a home. That is not an option for us.

We even looked into storage units that are climate controlled. The closest one to us is over an hour away one way so that is not an option.

Any one else have any ideas or thoughts?


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## Sammyk (Feb 28, 2013)

*Photos of land for wine cellar*

The hill area is about 20 by 25 feet and on the east side of the garage about 20' away from the garage.

Without actually measuring it appears at the highest point of the hill is about 3' from where the land levels out down below where the cellar would be.

Photos are 
looking south from the top of the hill.

facing north from the back yard,

facing northwest from the back yard. In this photo you can not see but to right of the photo is where the steps would lead down into the cellar because the land is fairly level there.

After doing the photos we did talk to the contractor who did not do any actual measurements he did agree it would have to be dug at least 4' into the ground because it has to be at least 7' tall to accommodate a 6' person.


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## grapeman (Feb 28, 2013)

Only thing I see wrong with the pictures is there is green stuff growing in February! That's just wrong. We woke up agin to a winter wonderland with everything covered with wet sticky snow!
You must really love wine to build a cellar just for it!


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## jswordy (Feb 28, 2013)

You're in NC, better make it a wine cellar/tornado shelter while you're at it.

Only thing I see is that it is not deep enough to be a truly covered structure unless you truck in some more dirt. The stuff that comes from your excavation probably won't be enough to cover it.

Be sure you have adequate ventilation or a dehumidification system, our you will have dampness and mold growing in no time flat. Be sure he seals the outside.

Did you check out the concrete prefab units for tornado shelters? Be the quickest way to do it. Buy a great big one, kill 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## jswordy (Feb 28, 2013)

Ya got two threads going.

I have one suggestion: prefab. Call a septic tank company (they usually deal in tornado shelters too) and look at what you can get ready-made to put in a hole. It will be cheaper and a solid pour.

The walls? Are they to be concrete block? Invites seepage and they can collapse.

I would rethink concrete slab to keep cars off the top. Seems to me that would invite them onto the top. Instead, maybe fence it off.

Cannot overstate the moisture woes in the South for underground structures. You had better have a good ventilation system and/or dehumidifier.

If you want to be sure to keep it cool, add 2-4" thick rigid foamboard on the outside top and sides where they are not buried deep in the earth. Cover with soil.

My under-house root cellar is 63 when it is 90 out, and it is open on top to the crawlspace.


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## Runningwolf (Feb 28, 2013)

Why not build something twice as big and build it above ground and add hvac. I would think it would be a lot cheaper and you got have an awesome tasting room at the same time for guests. It might be just a small table and some glasses for about four people. Put a steel door on it for security. What your building will add to your property taxes but often times when you build a free standing building without a permenant foundation it wont be taxible. There are places that specialize in building large custum sheds and I would think you could work with them for something like this. Just an idea and my opinion.


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## Sammyk (Feb 28, 2013)

I did not mean to post 2 threads. I had a window open to ask an unrelated question and got side tracked for a couple of hours and forgot what I was doing when I came back to the computer.
Jim we are still waiting on the contractor to figure which is less expensive, poured walls or blocks. He has a huge job he is working on and we are next in line, hopefully some time next week he hopes to get a price together. I had hoped he could at least give up a ball park price so we can decide if we can even afford it.

I will check tomorrow with septic companies. Great idea!

Some online search did talk about vapor barriers and the contractor thought on both sides of walls and ceiling would be required.

Also Mike in NM that I corresponded with also suggested a vent be added at construction time in case we need to add air conditioner at a later date.

There is a very long deck that we have to go under to access the crawl space and there is a 15,000 gallon pond about 6' away from the deck OR we would have tried to do the storage in the crawl space. It would be too labor intensive to haul dirt out from the crawl space with a wheelbarrow because there is no way to get equipment near the crawl space. It would all have to be dug and hauled out by hand.


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## Sammyk (Feb 28, 2013)

Mods I did not intentionally start 2 threads so if you want to move or delete one that is fine with me.

grapeman funny! What you see is weeds not grass. With 2.5 acres some areas are just weeds BUT the grass is greening up here too since we received some much needed rain.
I am in western NC and we don't have a lot of tornado s we do have them and that is a great idea about the prefab concrete shelters. I will look into that and the septic tanks. Thanks bunches, Jim!

Dan one thing we did find out is that is if it is less than 12 x 12 we do not need a building permit. So we will stay under that size.


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## DaveL (Feb 28, 2013)

i would recomend poured walls. More expensive, worth it. Make sure to use wall form ties with a 3/4 inch break back to allow patching the tie holes with grout before waterproofing. Concrete is much more waterproof than block as the block morter joints are all potential cracks. 
At the bottomn of the stairs be sure the landing with the drain is below the floor level about 4 inches to allow water to drain before floding the cellar. Are there any trees that could drop leaves and clog the exterior drain? 
Also your excavation wil not be near your foundation for your house will it? Picture a 45 degree angle from the bottom of the foundation extending outward. if you encroach on this you could undermine you foundation. In sandy soils the angle could be even less.

You might want to consider sloping the interior floor towards the door to facilitate washing the floor out to the drain in case bottles should burst, leak etc.
If you use block be sure to fill the cells with grout so it is essentially a solid wall anyway.
if your roof is covered by 2 ft of earth your temps should remain relatively constant. 
A good door would be helpful as well.


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## Sammyk (Feb 28, 2013)

DaveL all great suggestions! Thank you! I am keeping notes on different suggestions and ideas to discuss with the contractor.

At least 20' from garage and even further from the home. Not any trees in that area but there are trees on the property so there are some leaves that could blow in from winds. And I did make a note to be sure that the drain is checked for leaves in the fall.

He did talk about a couple of inches of gravel under the cement floor. Good idea?


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## DaveL (Feb 28, 2013)

Pretty standard in most parts of the country to put 4 inches of gravel( 21A or 57 stone) under a slab. If you use a 21 A, think crush and run, stone dust etc, be sure it is tamped, compacted well. When dealing with a concrete floor think of a pain of glass. if laid on a flat hard surface you could wealk on it. Put a smal pebble under it allowing it to flex, and it will crack in a second. 
With the leaves, remember the old pictures/ movies of the doors over the steps to the cellar? maybe a good option. I would design it so the walls rest on foundations with the slab poured above the foundations inside the walls. Therfore the joint between the foundation and walls is below floor level. 
Then incorporate a perforated drain tile, french drain, around the foundaton, draining to a lower elevation if possible. There are also water stops that can be used between the slab and the wall tha expand when they get wet to stop any water from encroaching there. But if the foundation is properly drained they are seldom used.


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## DaveL (Feb 28, 2013)

This thought just crossed my mind when thinking about the business your in and you issue of keeping people fromdriving over the cellar. What if you had a pond near the top of your cellar. Then incorporated a water feature which trickled through you cellar and was pumped back up to the pond as a fountain? Would make an easy humidifier. It would need some safegaurds in case the pump were to fail of course.


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## Sammyk (Feb 28, 2013)

Dave we are not open to the public we are just a shipping company that grows aquatic plants in the greenhouse and breeds koi on our 2.5 acre farm. Locals can pick up their orders at the Farmers Market where we sell for 10 weeks every spring. To much of a hassle allowing customers on the premises. AND most of all we prefer to remain that way as we like our privacy.


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## DaveL (Mar 1, 2013)

Still like the idea of a waterfall in the wine cellar, lol.


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## jswordy (Mar 1, 2013)

The perforated pipe around the base is a good idea.

Think hard about how to deal with the the humidity, because once that thing is built it will be hard to modify. If your summers are like TN summers and it is humid in there, you are going to have moist air against cool concrete and it will sweat.

The floor drain and floor slant are great suggestions, too.

I would not build with block walls. I can get some pictures of an underground house built two farms over from me that was used as a private shot house and gambling den when I first moved here. The top was a conventional roof, but the walls were all underground, built into a hill. The block walls are literally caved in, and it had to be abandoned to the elements. So you walk into this place that had to be great at one time, with bedrooms, kitchen, everything still there but the walls are all pushed in.

I think the reason for that was the high groundwater levels we get here in winter. I'm assuming you have the same concerns.

Let us know how the precast inquiries turn out. They can build modular underground homes with those things. I still think it'll be cheaper than scratch built. There's a company down here in AL that does a precast 6 x 10 x 6 installed for $3,800.

There's a company in Oklahoma making a 7-6 x 10-8 x 7 (L x W x H) that looks like it was made for your hill.







If you want an even larger one, I understand some companies can cast them like doublewide trailers and put the two halves together with a sealant.


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## jswordy (Mar 1, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> Dave we are not open to the public we are just a shipping company that grows aquatic plants in the greenhouse and breeds koi on our 2.5 acre farm. Locals can pick up their orders at the Farmers Market where we sell for 10 weeks every spring. To much of a hassle allowing customers on the premises. AND most of all we prefer to remain that way as we like our privacy.



I can relate! I used to sell Boer goats off my place. PITA. It took one time to find 3 were missing the day after someone had come to look at buying them for me to quit doing that. It eventually was too much of a hassle to market them, so we went all cattle.


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## Sammyk (Mar 1, 2013)

*jswordy* please clarify what you are saying about sweat. Because we have a crawl space under our home and a block foundation and a dirt floor there is no problem of sweat in the crawl space in the 13 years we have lived here.


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## Sammyk (Mar 1, 2013)

*Please note*

Please note, I have asked Mike to combine both threads or delete this one because I accidentally started a 2nd thread and it is confusing to us and others.

Please post any additional thoughts on this thread.

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f6/photos-land-wine-cellar-37075/

I honestly did not mean to start a 2nd thread.


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## Sammyk (Mar 1, 2013)

I did ask Mike to either merge or delete the other thread so it is not so confusing. So please just use this thread.

Jim and Dave we have read your thoughts and very grateful for your responses.

Jim the place in OK - we did call and they no longer make those shelters but thanks for putting us on to that idea.

We did find a place about 15 miles away from us but they are closed on Fridays. Can you believe that? but we will call them back on Monday.

I am still checking on septic tanks and am waiting for some calls back. Dang voice mails.
We would have never thought of those options so thank you very much!


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## Julie (Mar 1, 2013)

Sammy, 

I moved your thread with the pics to this thread since there were only six posts and this one had three pages of posts.


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## jswordy (Mar 1, 2013)

Sammyk said:


> *jswordy* please clarify what you are saying about sweat. Because we have a crawl space under our home and a block foundation and a dirt floor there is no problem of sweat in the crawl space in the 13 years we have lived here.



First YAAAY for Julie! 

Still damp air and cool concrete walls makes for condensation. I have a pole barn with a sheet metal roof that is uninsulated (came with the place), and in the spring/summer mornings it literally rains inside because the metal has got cold at night and condensed the water out of the air. 

Your crawlspace does not sweat because there are vents around your building to keep it aired out. Close that all up tight and your floor will start to rot in time from the dampness.

It is humid here, don't know about there. That's why I say to seal and insulate the concrete from the soil around it. If it is not sealed, moisture can migrate right through the concrete wall.

You will grow mold and mildew spores if you do not have a way of keeping humidity decent and keeping it vented somewhat. They will first grow on your bottle labels because of the nutrients there. And everything in there that can rust will rust. In the South we have an opposite wine cellar situation from the North. Here, we have excess humidity, not too little. So think about a dehumidifier with the drain line plumbed into your perf-pipe drain you will put around the bottom on the outside of the shelter.

Don't need that if it is just a storm shelter, but for wine storage and to make it useful for other things, you do.

On the septic tanks, I did not mean to use septic tanks. What I meant was that most septic tank makers also can and do make these underground shelter rooms, since they are in the prefab concrete business.

In the shelter pic I posted, the only thing I would do differently is to lay about a foot or two of soil over the top. The sun beating on the concrete has to heat up the inside the way it is there. I'd want to be able to mow the whole thing except the front.


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## DaveL (Mar 1, 2013)

Definetly want to waterproof whatever your walls are. Also you can use a water transpoting bopard against the wall and backfill with a porous fill like #57 stone agaist the board and wall about 12 inches thick. This transports the water to the drain around the foundation.


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## Sammyk (Mar 1, 2013)

First off, thank you Julie for moving everything to one thread for me. It is much appreciated.

To answer Jim's question we have very high humidity here in the summer. Typically we have 3 to 4 months of 90 degree weather with the high humidity.

So we found a place about 20 miles from here that makes tornado shelters. We drove up there and saw the shelter and spent 2 hours talking to the owner. We actually went down inside of the unit.

Details are it is a 6' x 8' and 8 person tornado shelter that is FEMA approved. We would think it would be hard pressed to get 8 people in it at one time but he told us average time spent in a tornado shelter is 17 minutes. I only mention this because it would take about that time to add or remove or add wine.

It is made of 6000 psi concrete reinforced with #3 cage rebar that has 3" concrete walls and 4-1/2" cement on the top and bottom. The door is an 80 pound steel door.

Price delivered and installed is $4500.00 I suppose most of the price is because of the FEMA endorsement.

It is typically set in the ground at 3' depth with about 2 feet of dirt over the top except where the door is set in the shelter to allow entrance. The door is set in at a slanted angle so that debris from a tornado would not be straight on and would be veered off. The door is air tight. The door is not in the photo shown but it can be seen in the attached photos where it would go.

There are 2 vents on the top (the photo shown here was an older model that only had one vent) to allow moisture to escape and air in for tornado protection. The unit can be modified to remove one or both of vents.

One other point it comes in 2 pieces and you can see the "seams" in the unit. The reason for this is because of the weight, it has to be delivered on 2 trucks.
The seams are finished off with epoxy once the unit is in place in the ground.

We are still waiting to hear from the contractor on his price and how he thinks it will be built.


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## DaveL (Mar 2, 2013)

Thats an interesting concept. How much rom do the stairs take up? Are you thinking Bulk aging storage, bottle storage or both? 
Space seems a bit small. Have you done the math to see how many bottles it will hold while leaving an isleway? Its a big expense to find you've outgrown it before its complete. 
Im jealous. I have a half finished addition with a full basement that I cant complete yet.


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## Sammyk (Mar 2, 2013)

Dave we will just use it for bottled wine. We have 2 of the wine racks from Sam's Club that holds 168 bottles each and we figured we could get 4 and possibly 5 of those racks inside. A bit crowded perhaps but we think we would only be accessing it once a week to take down bottles and bring up more and put in the fridge for the following week.

There is a rung ladder that sits inside up against the edge but we are thinking of adding steps like that are used for pull down attic. In the event of a tornado those steps would not work for getting an 85 lb dog down there. Or steps that can be taken out and stored outside the shelter.

Mostly I was wondering if you thought the cement info I provided would work.
It is pricey for sure but it is considered a home improvement that would increase our home value too because we do not have any where to go during a tornado.


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## Sammyk (Mar 2, 2013)

*Wine cellar from a storage container*

We found this on line with step by step instructions on how to build a complete wine cellar from a large 40' storage container.

Here is a link to the photos and if you scroll down to near the bottom there is a video on how to build it step by step. 
http://www.supercubes.com/blog/category/storm-shelter/

40' wine making room with storage cost $12,500!

Not in our budget but interesting in how this finished wine cellar is made.

We did look into a septic tank and can get a 3300 gallon tank for $1900 delivered and installed. Dimensions are 6.5' wide 7.5' tall and 12.5' long.

Should we go that route we would finish it off as per the video above,


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## grapeman (Mar 2, 2013)

I would not go with the septic tank idea. One that size would have 2 compartments in it so that divider would need to be busted out and could affect the integrity of the unit. It would also have knockouts for pipes and not have the proper access port for you to gain access easily. The price you got for the finished delivered unit is actually quite good. I bet the builder will come in 2 to 3 times that amount........................


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## Sammyk (Mar 2, 2013)

We did talk to the septic tank company and he said it not that hard to take out the divider with the right tool. And we are think that just taking out part of it, enough to allow one to walk through would give extra wall space for additional wine racks.

Still waiting on the contractor who now has the flu or some virus.....


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## jswordy (Mar 2, 2013)

Hmmm - you are going to fill up the storm shelter you posted pretty quick by the time you get your shelving and such in there. The septic tank sounds like a great option with modifications.

Soooo...some things to ask about and ponder...

1.) Can the storm shelter guy make a "back half" and join the two together onsite? 

2.) If not, could you bury TWO storm shelters side by side in the hill, with one serving only for wine storage?

3.) Or, would it save money while the hole is dug to bury the storm shelter right next to the modified septic tank, and use the septic tank as a wine storage room? You can jackhammer out a doorway in the front (side) of the tank, install a door, and have a walk-in.

4.) Or could the septic tank be made in a "doublewide" configuration and then sealed together onsite to make one big room?

The reason you have found many manufacturers out of business is that the huge wave of tornadoes that passed through the south two springs ago exposed many many flaws in shelters people had bought that were not approved by state and federal agencies. Chiefly, the doors, latches and door anchor areas were not near strong enough. So the feds and many states cracked down and a lot of people quit the biz, because it is costly to get your design up to standards and to go through the approval process.

To simply store wine, though, the modified septic tank idea might have merit. For dual use, burying shelter next to septic tank could save you some real money, since the shelter could be smaller now to fit 2-4 people and the septic tank is cheaper by the square foot for wine only use.

You'll still have to factor in your ventilation costs, drainage and your sealing and insulation costs, but I'll bet either option will come in much cheaper than a scratch-built unit. I definitely would consider an exterior sealant coating and using rigid foam all around anyplace the earth contacts the unit(s). It will help keep them dry and keep humidity down inside.

Also, look at this cheapo solution for kicks! [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93NsPdsMBms[/ame]

Or this one...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA0Sp5IjLjk[/ame]


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 2, 2013)

I own a contracting company. Look into ICF. Insulated concrete forming may offer you a solution. It works especially well with an exterior wrap of Delta MS tied into a weeping tile. You will probably need a sump pit depending on your depth and grade elevation.


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## REDBOATNY (Mar 2, 2013)

Starting to sound like a Doomsday preppers episode. Lol. I wouldn't put the "septic tank wine" on the label.


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 2, 2013)

It's not for a septic tank. It's for the collection and diversion of hydrostatic water pressure and exterior weepers.


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## DaveL (Mar 2, 2013)

Not a proposal but a guestamate of where you contractor will come inJob:
$!0,990 I created an estimate but could not figure out how to attach an Excel file to the post. A cast in place wall will probably be much thicker. The slab being cast in place should last longer as it is supported better from below. The ICF idea is a good one. I have used these on multi million dollar homes and Wal Marts. easy to use. you could build it yourself
However the ICF will need to covered whever exposed. 
I would niot use hardboard insulation on the exterior but rather a drainage board to wick wwater to drain tile at foundation. Remember you want the earth tp impart the steady temps to your cellar. You might want to use the hardboard in the top 2 ft. LOL this goes back to our spirited debate RE Frost line. 
The thickness of the walls in the precast shelter give me concern.


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## Sammyk (Mar 2, 2013)

LOL RedboatNY. We don't have a name yet but the the Septic Tank Winery has a nice ring to it!


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 2, 2013)

Mmmm. First wine could be named "Septic Soup".


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## jimmyjames23 (Mar 2, 2013)

DaveL said:


> However the ICF will need to covered whever exposed.
> I would niot use hardboard insulation on the exterior but rather a drainage board to wick wwater to drain tile at foundation.



Delta wrap MS is an exterior cladding for use with ICF as a drainage membrane. It requires to be installed with a rail above grade that prevents water from getting behind the wrap. 
You can also make your own ICF by using high density foam board (usually blue in Canada...not sure about the US) set up inside a traditional form. Just set your forms 4 inches wider to accomodate 2 inches foam board on either side. Though I see no reason to insulate (with foam board) on the interior form unless of course you don't want concrete walls. The traditional method of using ICF on the interior calls for EIFS stucco. Which insures your wine cellar maintains a constant temp and looks great (almost Tuscan) on the interior.


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## TahunaJR (Mar 2, 2013)

I am really enjoying following this thread. I am even more impressed by the levels of expertise members are sharing. 

Seems like the next natural step is that one weekend we all show up for a "barn raising" (or should it be renamed to a "cellar burying"????)!!!!!


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## Sammyk (Mar 2, 2013)

DaveL we are thinking along the same lines with a contractor and his price. And we are leaning towards the tornado shelter but we are waiting to hear back on quotes from others we contacted. Won't happen until next week sometime.

Jim we cannot afford 2 storm shelters but maybe 2 septic tanks. We do like the idea of the storm shelter because of the home value increase.

The fellow that makes the shelters is the manufacturer of the mold and that is his primary business. He ships the molds all of the USA. He has 15 molds going to TX on Monday.

There is a runged ladder that leans against the shelter which we would replace with most likely removable wooden steps. Fema requires a runged ladder, why I have no idea.

When we had a tornado here about 2 years ago he had tons of phone calls to build the actually shelters, so he did. He actually had orders for 45 of them after that tornado. But soon the tornado damage faded from the news and folks forgot about the shelters and only a handful did actually buy them.

We spent 2 hours talking to him at his home yesterday so we know the whole history. It took many protocols to finally get them approved by FEMA. And FEMA has specific condtions that had to be made to give their approval. He has one set in the ground at his home that is how we were able to get to actually go into one.
I believe he told us on shelter weighs 12,000 pounds. But they have the equipment to bring here, dig the hole, set it in place and fill it back in.

Jim we both loved the 2 videos! What a hoot!

OK so we have had 3 days of heavy rain and when we were in the shelter it was dry even though it was tightly closed for about a week. No signs of water or humidity inside. What he did was cover it with shredded bark where we would probably cement over the one part which would help keep it cooler. and then bark over the door that could be brushed away for access. He did say it had been in his side yard for a few years and he has never seen water or humidity when he takes folks to his house to see how they are buried. His is buried 3' into flat ground where ours would be 3' into a large hill and maybe a bit deeper. If we decide to go that route we will go there and seal coat it before they deliver it because they bring all the needed equipment when they bring out the unit. Once in the ground we can seal coat the inside if we feel it is necessary And at this point we are not sure that even needs to be done because of the 2 air vents which should allow humidity to escape.

One thing he did say he only had one vent and Fema required 2 for air exchange so he had to go back and add a 2nd vent. We do not recall the reason why the 2nd vent had to be added.

The Sams Club wine racks hold 168 bottles each and the dimentions are 36"W x 14"D x 63"H so we feel we can get at least 5 of the wine racks in there.

I have slowed down on my wine making because I am not shipping any more to family in MI. So I am only making 2 to 3 gallons at a time. And I am experimenting with making 1 gallon carboys. I will post more on that when I have finished my experiments in 1 gallon carboys. We only open one bottle of wine a day and occasionally two so I figured we need about 400 bottles in a years time. We have no family here except one older daughter and very few friends because of the hours we work. I occasionally give an elderly neighbor a bottle but it takes her a week to drink it.

DaveL I am curious how close your cost comes out to what he and other contractors actually come up with. Thank you for taking the time.

TahunaJR we have only been making wine about 18 months and new nothing about making wine. In fact we rarely ever even drank. And now for health reasons our doctor only allows us 8 oz a day. We do occasionally drink a little more but not often. My experience here is everyone is extremely helpful and many are very knowledgeable. There are folks here from every profession and walks of life. So don't worry about asking questions because everyone is very nice.
TahunaJR we like your idea of everyone showing up for a wine cellar building. We are not able to do any of the work because we both have torn rotatory cuffs in opposite shoulders so we must hire the work done.

I hope I did not miss anything because there were a lot of post to get through.
We both really appreciate all the help and ideas.

I did not proof read this so excuse any errors. It took me a few hours because I had to work on this post between business phone calls.


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