# 2018 Muscadines



## M38A1 (Jul 8, 2018)

Last year we tried our hand at making wine and although tart, was certainly drinkable. I hope this year I've learned more about what I'm doing and how to make the 2018 batch better than last year.

This year was a good year for the Muscadines. A wild grape with an uber-tart skin, their acid level is quite high to begin with. So it takes a lot of water to get the acid/ph down to .65%. Last year I used a dropper/drops testing kit and had a hard time seeing the difference in color change. This year I have a little handy ph digital tester so we'll see how that goes.

We've got about 100lbs of cleaned de-stemmed grapes which were harvested yesterday. My plan is to do the following:

1. Press the grapes to extract the juice
2. Add enough water to bring the ph to .65%
3. Add sugar to bring the SG to 1.100
4. Add the must to the straining bag and float that in my primary and sit 24 hours
5. Pitch the yeast, stir daily checking SG
6. When my ferment reaches 1.3SG I'll rack this off to my secondary glass carboy(s) and attach an airlock
7. When secondary reaches 1.00SG I'll rack to a new glass carboy with an airlock
8. About 8 weeks later I'll rack again with hopes of clearing it all by then naturally
9. If it tastes like it worked I'll add some stabilizer then 1/4 to 1/2lb sugar per gallon
10. Bottle, cork, wrap, sticker and sit on it a few months more and see what happens.

I'm wondering if bottled Spring water is the way to go or just our filtered (heavy limestone content) water. Also wondering what type of yeast to use. I've got some Red Star Montrachet Dry, Lalvin EC-1118 or Red Star Cotes Des Blanc dry to experiment with. I'm wanting a refreshing sweet served chilled for what will most probably turn out as a pinkish/blush look.

How does this sound for a plan?


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## M38A1 (Jul 8, 2018)

Yesterday was picking 117.7lbs of grapes. Today was culling & de-stem leaving me a net of 101.2lbs of grapes to press. Man I hope my little homemade bucket press is up to the task.....

If I can't get to pressing these until tomorrow evening, how would you store them? I can't put them in a fridge. Can they stay in the house at room temp of 75*F and be ok?


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## Johnd (Jul 8, 2018)

Instead of watering to dilute the acid (which also dilutes the body, tannins, and sugar content), consider trying to get some of the acidity down using potassium carbonate to avoid what I mentioned above. We typically don’t water grapes to raise pH, only to dilute high BRIX. Do you monitor BRIX / pH to see how the levels are changing before you harvest? A refractometer and pH meter and a few grapes will tell the tale. As grapes ripen, sugar content increases and acidity decreases, even in grapes that are typically high acid, that might help get you to a better starting pH right out of the gate. Sounds like you’re adjusting the TA, you might consider trying to get the pH into the 3.5 - 3.6 range instead. Just my two cents.


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## M38A1 (Jul 8, 2018)

John,
Thank you for the reply.....

This is only my second year to try this so I'm probably the smallest fish in the pond at the moment. For example, last year the total volume was about 11 gallons. My bucket press 'sort of' worked but not as well as I thought it would have. I don't know how other grapes react to pressure, but these Muscadine's have tough skin and there's this really slimy consistency to the juice after pressing. That's clogging up my nylon strainer bag in a significant way. So I tried a bucket press without the bag and it was ok until the 3/16th inch holes in the bucket press got slimy and somewhat clogged I suppose tomorrow I'll go rent the true grape press I used last year but even that seemed inefficient.

I can understand not watering down the grapes to lower the acid level as it dilutes the body/tannins and sugar. And I have seen BRIX mentioned but don't know what it is, so no - I don't monitor that. Last year I missed the best grapes by about a week and making wine was an "hey let's try this" and the grapes were a bit on the dry side, not plump and a tad bit shriveled. This year I kept an eye on the grapes and we harvested 117lbs yesterday when they were perfectly plump (or at least what I think). That's about all I've done this year is monitor how well they were doing on the vine so I've probably missed the boat on doing anything in that area this year.

I just purchased a small handheld ph tester. It will measure 1-14pH so once that's calibrated (hopefully tomorrow) I can see where I'm starting with pH. Do you simply add the Potassium Carbonate a little bit at a time to get the pH to 3.5? Then my silly question is, how do you increase volume if I only will extract maybe 4 gallons of pressed juice? Are all wines straight juice?

Very much looking forward to your thoughts again. And thank you.


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## Johnd (Jul 9, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> John,
> Thank you for the reply.....
> 
> This is only my second year to try this so I'm probably the smallest fish in the pond at the moment. For example, last year the total volume was about 11 gallons. My bucket press 'sort of' worked but not as well as I thought it would have. I don't know how other grapes react to pressure, but these Muscadine's have tough skin and there's this really slimy consistency to the juice after pressing. That's clogging up my nylon strainer bag in a significant way. So I tried a bucket press without the bag and it was ok until the 3/16th inch holes in the bucket press got slimy and somewhat clogged I suppose tomorrow I'll go rent the true grape press I used last year but even that seemed inefficient.
> ...



I understand your bucket press problem, a wooden press basket with vertical slats eases a lot of these woes. 

SG and BRIX are both measures of the same thing, sugar content, just with different scales. Most grape growers monitor their grapes progress with a refractometer, which requires a couple drops of juice, using the BRIX scale. Good to have the pH meter!! If you are making a blush / rose’ with those red grapes, you should be shooting for a lower pH than 3.5 / 3.6, something more in the 3.2 range perhaps, and yes, little bits added, go slow. 

Wines are straight juice, unless the BRIX is too high, then a little water may be added. Red Grapes are harvested, crushed (popped) and destemmed into large fermenters, skin, pulp and all, to be fermented and pressed off of the skins near the end of fermentation, not before. The exception is white wine, which is pressed and settled before fermentation. In your case, using red grapes to make rose’ / blush, only a short time on the skins is needed. If you rent the wooden press again, and your grapes are properly crushed (not whole), you should get 6-7 gallons of wine from your harvest. 

Once fermented and cleared, you can backsweeten (with K sorbate added) and bottle.


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## M38A1 (Jul 9, 2018)

John, again, thank you for the quick tutorial.

I've harvested, culled, washed and de-stemmed up to this point. What I'm understanding from your explanation is I need to break up the grapes, pitch my yeast and let that run a few days and then do the pressing?

My primary concern is these were picked Saturday, cleaned/de-stemmed Sunday and here we are on Monday and they're still just sitting in buckets in my house. I have about 2 gallons of pressed juice so far but if my process is wrong.......


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## Johnd (Jul 9, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> John, again, thank you for the quick tutorial.
> 
> I've harvested, culled, washed and de-stemmed up to this point. What I'm understanding from your explanation is I need to break up the grapes, pitch my yeast and let that run a few days and then do the pressing?
> 
> My primary concern is these were picked Saturday, cleaned/de-stemmed Sunday and here we are on Monday and they're still just sitting in buckets in my house. I have about 2 gallons of pressed juice so far but if my process is wrong.......



Rose' / blush is just a different animal, the longer the grapes are popped and juice is sitting with its skins, the more color they will pick up. How long they sit on the skins is not a science, but more of an art, and depends upon your plan for the wine. I believe that for most blush / rose' wines, that the juice is separated from the skins before fermentation, after only a very short time with the skins.


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## M38A1 (Jul 9, 2018)

I can certainly change the approach at this point..... Last year the end result was a pinkish dry wine and a bit too tart for me. I'm guessing the tartness was due to the grape skins which are acidic to the point of irritating my skin when handling them. 

This year let's just go with whatever is easy knowing I've got 2gallons of juice extracted at the moment and roughly 50lbs of cleaned/de-stemmed in buckets. I have two 6.7gal primaries with air locks, three 5gal glass carboys with airlocks and three 3gal carboys with airlocks. Would you suggest I dump my crushed grapes I have so far back into the 2gal juice, stir it around and pitch the yeast saving the pressing for about 4 days down the road? I can do that as well as smash the remaining 50lbs and pitch some yeast. I'm really open for suggestions at this point.

My biggest problem with all this is, I've never watched/helped anyone do it before. It's all been watching YouTube lessons and there a a ton of different ways to go. So any guidance would be appreciated on how to proceed this year. My approach is "...it will wind up somewhere between good and bad" so I don't have a ton of high expectations going into this although I'd like to have something drinkable in six months or so.


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## M38A1 (Jul 9, 2018)

This is what last years harvest looked like harvested in June 2017 and this picture end of November 2017


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## Johnd (Jul 9, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> This is what last years harvest looked like harvested in June 2017 and this picture end of November 2017


Well that's a fairly dark rose' wine, and that's after you added water to it as well, so your skins must be pretty dark and give up the color readily. 

Try this on for size, take your destemmed grapes and crush them into a bucket(s) and stir them around for a short time, draw out some juice and see how dark it is. If you're happy with iy, press the juice off, if not, let it go longer til you're happy with the color, then combine the juices from both batches. 

Check the SG of the juice and adjust to your desired starting point, making sure it's well stirred. Tackle the acidity of the must next, make sure your pH meter is properly calibrated so you're getting good readings, shooting for a starting pH in 3.2 - 3.3 range. Go slow with the K-carb, stir well between testing, til you get to a good starting point. 

Pitch yeast, you'll probably need nutrients, and ferment to dry. Once dry, rack off of the gross lees and add sulfite at 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons and allow the wine to clear, racking as needed, but boosting the sulfite every three months. 

Once it's crystal clear, with no sediment, and in conjunction with one of your regularly scheduled sulfite additions, add some potassium sorbate as well and stir in. Now you can sweeten your wine, the sorbate will prevent the yeast still present from fermenting the newly added sugar into alcohol. The right amount of sweetness will help overcome the tartness / astringency of the acid if still an issue. Adjusting a small quantity and tasting until you find the right amount of sugar (bench trials) is a good method to use, then adjust the whole batch. After sweetened, wait a few days just to make sure that no fermentation kicks off, and you should be ready to bottle.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Well John, I think I screwed up five gallons tonight..... 

I had my 2.5gal of pressed juice and ran a pH just to see where I was and it was 2.7 after calibration. I read and re-read my Potassium Bicarbonate label to understand what I was reading. It says "Acid Reduction Powder / 1-1/3tsp per US gallon lowers acid content 0.1%, NOT recommended to reduce acid more than .3%". So that in my mind sort of excluded use of that to get the acid under control since I needed to go .5%. I had already gotten my SG under control at 1.095/BRIX @24 so I pondered what to do next. I fell back to dilution of the juice like I did last year with Spring water but that messed up my SG again. So I had to add more sugar to get SG/BRIX back in line and then it came time to add the Potassium Bicarbonate. So I measured out 6-1/3 tsp (1-1/3 x 5) and got that in slowly as recommended. After a few minutes it started to foam and turn dark brown. So I checked the pH and it was now at 4.0.

Is this salvageable now? I have some "Acid Blend" powder which the label says "contains food grade citric, maltic and tartaric acid".

Any guidance would be very much appreciated now.


.....and I still have 50lbs of grapes picked from Saturday sitting in two buckets on my kitchen floor I don't know what to do with. I think I've simply got more grapes than capacity as I'm running out of primaries and I certainly don't have that many extra carboys around.


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

Bummer, now you know why we "go slow" with the additions, little bits at a time, slowly adjusting up to the proper pH. Nuff said there. 

Get your other grapes prepared quickly and get the juice prepared to be added to the current batch and add it in slowly, checking your pH with each little addition, until you get the pH back down into range. Put simply, use the highly acidic juice that you have left to bring your pH back down. I'm not sure how the color of your wine will turn out if it's already brown, acidity is one of the factors in color retention. Once you've adjusted the acidity back down with the juice, correct your SG, which will surely have changed. and get your yeast in there.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Thank you John. I apologize for posting that in a second thread as I was freaking out over this and wanted to cast a wide net on experience here. 

I'll get more pressed today and see if that can bring down the pH to be more acidic, adjust again the SG/Brix and pitch the yeast today.

It may be ugly in the end, but if the pH and Brix are good and no bacteria has made it there after this period, and it's a good ferment - would you still think it's "safe" albeit ugly?


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Thank you John. I apologize for posting that in a second thread as I was freaking out over this and wanted to cast a wide net on experience here.
> 
> I'll get more pressed today and see if that can bring down the pH to be more acidic, adjust again the SG/Brix and pitch the yeast today.
> 
> It may be ugly in the end, but if the pH and Brix are good and no bacteria has made it there after this period, and it's a good ferment - would you still think it's "safe" albeit ugly?



Since you've got some time passing, you should probably hit it with a little sulfite while you get caught up on your activities. I'd probably split 1/4 tsp in half and get that mixed in pretty quickly to protect against oxidation / nasties, particularly if you're in an open fermenter. That amount shouldn't hamper your yeast getting pitched / started later on this evening. At this point in time, with the troubles you've had, consider using the EC-1118, the last thing you need now is a troublesome fermentation.

We can't ever make promises or predict the outcomes of these things, but musts tend to work their way back in the direction of their origin during fermentation. That is, high pH musts tend to move back up the scale after adjustments, and low pH musts tend to ease back down. Hopefully, that will come to fruition. Some of the browning color may also drop out during clearing, we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Thanks....
So EC-118 is not a typo and it's different than EC-1118? I have a lot of EC-1118 at the moment.

Regarding the sulfite, what's the technical name? I have some Potassium Metabisulphite. Is that the same thing to kill wild yeast? Package says add 1/4 tsp her 6gal of must.

I squeezed some more grapes in a mesh bag, maybe 16oz worth and added that. pH is now 3.6 and BRIX 24.8/SG1.096. I think that's about all I can hope for at this point with it. And the brown mostly went away.....

Let me know on the yeast and sulfite please.


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Thanks....
> So EC-118 is not a typo and it's different than EC-1118? I have a lot of EC-1118 at the moment.
> 
> Regarding the sulfite, what's the technical name? I have some Potassium Metabisulphite. Is that the same thing to kill wild yeast? Package says add 1/4 tsp her 6gal of must.
> ...



Yes to both, it's a typo, which I've corrected, use the EC - 1118. Sulfite is Potassium Metabisulphite, just a shorter name to type. I was cutting your dose in half so that you could get your yeast pitched today instead of waiting a day for the sulfite to dissipate, it'll give you a measure of protection until the yeast gets going.

If you've already got the juice pressed and added and are happy with the current readings, mix the 1/2 dose of sulfite in and stir it well and cover it. Check the numbers again in a few hours and if all is still in line, pitch your yeast and get ready for the ride. If luck is on your side, we may actually see your pH drop a bit as fermentation progresses.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Man you have been a lifesaver to this point! THANK YOU / THANK YOU / THANK YOU!

I'll go do that now. Still need to go to the store and get more sugar for the other 5gal primaries which are a bit low on BRIX. Can I toss in the sulfite now with them as well? I'll pitch yeast this evening for all three.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Potassium Metabisulphite in all three now at 1/8tsp each. Fingers crossed.

When I pitch the yeast, how much should I use on each 5gal bucket? A full one each?

Off to the store now for sugar and water....


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Man you have been a lifesaver to this point! THANK YOU / THANK YOU / THANK YOU!
> 
> I'll go do that now. Still need to go to the store and get more sugar for the other 5gal primaries which are a bit low on BRIX. Can I toss in the sulfite now with them as well? I'll pitch yeast this evening for all three.



Yes, that would be just fine, just trying to get you going so your juice doesn't sit around too long.

As for the help, you're quite welcome.


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Potassium Metabisulphite in all three now at 1/8tsp each. Fingers crossed.
> 
> When I pitch the yeast, how much should I use on each 5gal bucket? A full one each?
> 
> Off to the store now for sugar and water....



Yes, just use a packet in each bucket, they're 5 gram packets to be clear.............


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## sour_grapes (Jul 10, 2018)

Yes, it will not be "unsafe," whatever that means.

BTW, in your original post, I _think_ you are confusing acid content and _p_H. I believe they are recommending you not change your TA (titratable acidity) by more than 0.3% (AKA 3 g/liter). I don't think they are talking about moving the _p_H by a certain amount.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Well that introduces a whole new dynamic I'm unaware of then..... 

My equipment includes 
a) a hydrometer to measure SG
b) a refractometer to measure SG/Brix scale
c) a pH tester to test what I've understood to be acid content.

The SG/Brix part is easy for me to understand.

The acid part is a bit tricky for me. I understand a higher acid content needs dilution and a lower acid content needs enhancement to get to a given point.

The reason I say "understood" above for the acid is I don't know the differences if there are any. Last year I used one of the eye-droppper/sample and drops in solution to look for a color change to black that was extremely difficult for my tired eyes to see those changes. So my beer/wine making friend said get a pH test meter so I did. A little reading and what has been presented here, I've been targeting on the pH meter 3.2 to 3.6. I've assumed that in the ballpark of .65% taratic acid content by the way I did it last year.

Could you please explain in newbie terms what I don't know and if I've again screwed this up or again need to do something to salvage this? 

Last years batch was drinkable but a bit tart and all I did was wash/cull/de-stem and crush, put the juice in a primary, add spring water to get the eyedropper test at what I thought was .65% tartaric based the number of drops I added, kept adding sugar until the SG was 1.100 and pitched yeast. Let that rock for about a week then siphoned off to clean secondaries, and then a third or fourth rack before bottling.

My 1st primary is:
5 gallons / SG1.095 / Brix 24.8 / 3.6pH

My 2nd primary is:
5 gallons / working on the SG&Brix now / 3.1pH

My 3rd primary is:
5 gallons / working on the SG&Brix now / 3.1 pH


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

So what I'm hearing is there are three components for basic wine and not two.

Last year I was testing for .65% tartaric acid with a kit, and then SG start to finish with my hydrometer. Two things.

This year I've been testing for what I thought were the same things, but it appears there's tartaric acid, pH and SG (Brix with my refractometer) making it three things in the mix. Is that correct?

Edit To Add:
Well a little poking around and I found this article which what I believe explains the differences.
Source: How to measure acidity TA in wine

Looks like there's no easy way to measure TA other than the drops either with the test kit or in conjunction with the pH meter? And I read you need to recalibrate the pH meter EVERY time you use it? My kit only came with one test packet for the low 4.01 range. Argh..... This is a ballistic learning curve/baptism by fire for sure.


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> So what I'm hearing is there are three components for basic wine and not two.
> 
> Last year I was testing for .65% tartaric acid with a kit, and then SG start to finish with my hydrometer. Two things.
> 
> ...



OK, let's reign this back in a bit. pH is a measure of the strength of the acid in a wine, TA (which stands for Total Acidity, not Tartaric Acid) is a measure of the quantity of acid in the wine. pH is measured with a log scale, TA is expressed in grams / liter or a percentage of grams per liter (6 grams/liter is the same as .6%). And yes TA is determined by performing a titration, which is what you were referring to above. 

You and I have been working on getting your pH raised in your must to a point where alcoholic fermentation will not be unduly stressed, and subsequently, this raising of pH will also lower the TA, but we've not been focusing on TA, as many don't when adjusting must prefermentation.

Don't get sidetracked right now with TA, focus on getting your pH correct, into the 3.2ish range, getting your SG up to the starting point you want, and doing it without adding water and thinning the body and taste of your wine. If your other two musts are at 3.1, you're almost there with the pH. Adjust as discussed, little bits at a time so you don't overshoot your goal.

When you feel that you've mastered pH adjustments, you can test both pH and TA in your must and work to adjust both of them into a workable range at the same time, they don't change predictably, nor at the same rate. Later, when your wine is done, you can monkey around with TA and taste test with different levels of added sugar to overcome any residual tartness if needed.


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Whew.....

I packaged up the 48lbs of cleaned grapes into three 2-gallon pails and they're in the freezer for another day when I free up some gear.

And I've been working diligently (i hope) on hitting these target numbers. 

My pH meter is by Jellas

My refractor simply says "ATC" on the top. I used it in conjunction with my Hydrometer and they were in check with one another.

The acid tester (Vintners Best/LD Carlson) I used requires a 15cc sample of product where you add three drops of Phenolphthalein Indicator Solution. Then slowly agitating the sample with the drops, start adding Sodium Hydroxide keeping track of how many cc's it takes to make the color change dark and stopping when no additional SodHyd is added. That's a tough thing to do if you don't do colors well let alone shades. But I did each one two or three times so I'm confident the numbers are good.

My targets were:
pH: 3.2ish
BRIX: 24-25
SG: 1.095-1.100
Acid: .65%

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5
BRIX: 24.8
SG: 1.095
Acid: .65%

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2
BRIX: 24.8
SG: 1.095
Acid: .63%

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2
BRIX: 24.8
SG: 1.097
Acid: .50%

So I'd say everything is on track except Bucket #3 and it's acid. On my shelf of stuff i have, it includes "Acid Blend - Food Grade Citric Maltic and Tartaric Acid", Yeast Energier, Yeast Nutrient and Wine Tannin.

I'm "guessing" I need to use the Acid Blend to get the acid content up to .65%. But there's zero instructions on how to use it. 

So I think there's one more hurdle with the acid of #3 and then it's time to prepare my yeast and pitch it, right?

How do I use the Acid Blend for #3 and is the yeast straight forward by the packet label?


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Whew.....
> 
> I packaged up the 48lbs of cleaned grapes into three 2-gallon pails and they're in the freezer for another day when I free up some gear.
> 
> ...



Leave it like it is, if you try to increase the TA, you’ll drop the pH, don’t want that. Pitch your yeast and get your AF going ASAP.

Since you have no pulp and skins, your nutrient levels are probably low, so plan out your nutrient additions. Take the recommended dosage for each bucket, and add half of it to each bucket when fermentation gets started, and the second half to each bucket when your SG gets down to around 1.060.

Just sprinkle the yeast on top of the must, cover it back up, and let it sit undisturbed until it takes off. 

We have a saying here that you’ll hear a lot, “Pictures, or it didn’t happen”


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## M38A1 (Jul 10, 2018)

Well, the yeast is in. Thanks for getting me this far.

Pictures huh? Nothing fancy, just iPhone snaps

Here's the root for the significant majority of this years pickings... I'm guessing about 10" in diameter which makes me wonder how old it is...






The vines can grow 30-40' per year but they don't produce on all that new growth. This one is a literal canopy over a large cedar tree.





This is the 117lbs of gross pickings





And here is the net 101lbs of culled/cleaned and de-stemmed grapes.





This is the mess that took over my kitchen for the past few days. It's looking a lot more 'normal' now.





This is my little dedicated winery.  The three bottom right buckets are #1/#2/#3 as referenced above.





Mixing the EC-1118 up. This was a learning experience. Instructions said between 104 and 109*F. So I got my ThermoPen out and measured 107*F at the faucet. As a test I poured 50cc in the cup and checked the temperature. The house is 74*F as was the glass so it cooled the small volume of water down quickly. Hmmmmm..... Lets bump that faucet to 120 and see what happens. I could grab the water, pour it in the cup and by the time I had opened the packet, the temperature was back in range and stayed put.





....and a few Hail Mary's tossed in with the yeast for good measure! 





That's about where we're up to in this story. I'm sure I'll have more questions in the next day or so.  The plan is to add nutrient once it gets fermenting going, monitor SG and when it hits .995+/- I'll rack it off to a glass carboy/airlock setup. From there I'll just monitor it and see what happens. And when I have a question, I'll just drop it here!

Again John, thank you for everything so far.....


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## Johnd (Jul 10, 2018)

Good jobs with the pics, and glad you hung in with the prep work. Hopefully smoother sailing from here, and some tasty wine for you!


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## M38A1 (Jul 11, 2018)

Thanks!

Quick question..... Last year I remember I had my plastic pail primaries under an airlock w/vodka in the airlock. I've seen so many pictures of people doing primary fermentation under a closed bucket. Right now, mine is open to the room via the airlock hole. If I need to cover that, is duct tape adequate on the exterior? Or some other plug? I don't have solid tops but if needed can run into Austin and get some.

What's the proper way to perform primary fermentation? Closed top / Open hole / Airlock? Secondary and on will definitely have an airlock. But how about primary?


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## Johnd (Jul 11, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Quick question..... Last year I remember I had my plastic pail primaries under an airlock w/vodka in the airlock. I've seen so many pictures of people doing primary fermentation under a closed bucket. Right now, mine is open to the room via the airlock hole. If I need to cover that, is duct tape adequate on the exterior? Or some other plug? I don't have solid tops but if needed can run into Austin and get some.
> 
> What's the proper way to perform primary fermentation? Closed top / Open hole / Airlock? Secondary and on will definitely have an airlock. But how about primary?



It's an open debate, either will work, and folks here do it both ways. The main goal is to allow CO2 out while preventing anything else in, like bugs, flies, dog hair, dust, dirt, etc., and it does not need to be airtight, as the CO2 being produced protects / blankets the wine from overexposure to oxygen. Since access to the must is sometimes mandatory, like for punching down the cap or stirring, some find it more convenient to have the container covered by a towel, or the lid sitting loosely on top. When the lid is loosely on top, as it sounds like yours is, I normally shove a paper towel partway into the hole to keep anything from falling / scurrying through the hole and into the fermenter.

Personally, my preference is a covered, but not airlocked fermenter, with the only exception being white wines, which I ferment in carboys, at cool temps, and under airlock, to preserve delicate flavors / aromas.


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## M38A1 (Jul 11, 2018)

Thank you John.
When I run home for lunch I'll put a pc of paper towel in the holes as you referenced. I couldn't bring myself to peek this morning inside those primaries. Nerves? 

Oh, and I ran the pH on the pressed grapes as I was preparing more to raise the acid contents. Scale read pH of 2.6. I didn't think to try the acid test and SG/Brix on raw grapes until after I had them in the freezer for several hours. I suppose I can run over to the tree at lunch, grab a few and press them for those. I don't think those metrics will have changed much in four days. Or will they? Now that I think about it, when you test the acid content, it would be the slurry (skins&juice), right? But when you check the SG/Brix of the grape, is it just the 'meat' juice? Or is it also the slurry?

What I like most about this discussion is the process. My only prior experience was last year following a little 20 page paperback 'recipe' book with basic instructions. The more I read of other sources, the more I was confused. Now - and much thanks to you - I have a much broader understanding of how this works. Still in infancy, I'm feeling like I kind of 'get it' now and how you approach this/solve problems. I'm thinking the next big thing are all the additives to modify things/bring things in-line etc. Someone asked me what it's like to make wine. I said "It's a whole lot of up front labor followed by a bunch of chemistry and then waiting to see if it worked". I still hold that thought. I've got the labor part nailed. It's just the chemistry, steps and little details I need to fill in to make a drinkable product. I have zero aspirations of making a lot of wine. Heck, just looking at 15gal in primaries is a lot of wine and if I calculated right about 60+ bottles. That's one a week to drink! I DO want to try some other wines as well.


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## Johnd (Jul 11, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Thank you John.
> When I run home for lunch I'll put a pc of paper towel in the holes as you referenced. I couldn't bring myself to peek this morning inside those primaries. Nerves?
> 
> Oh, and I ran the pH on the pressed grapes as I was preparing more to raise the acid contents. Scale read pH of 2.6. I didn't think to try the acid test and SG/Brix on raw grapes until after I had them in the freezer for several hours. I suppose I can run over to the tree at lunch, grab a few and press them for those. I don't think those metrics will have changed much in four days. Or will they? Now that I think about it, when you test the acid content, it would be the slurry (skins&juice), right? But when you check the SG/Brix of the grape, is it just the 'meat' juice? Or is it also the slurry?
> ...



Your evaluation of the process is pretty much on track, at least as far as task performance goes, there's lots of "farmer" parts and "artist" parts to learn, and much of that comes from experience. Being able to taste grapes in the field, know where they are, when they'll be ready, and what processes to select for making your wine that year to get the best you can out of the crop. Fortunately, some of this can be measured scientifically, but not all.

The conventional wisdom surrounding testing grapes on the vine involves taking a representative sample of the grapes, normally from different parts of the vineyard (wouldn't apply in your case I suppose), and smashing / macerating the grapes, pulp, skins, etc, and then filtering the resulting juice (through a fine strainer or cheesecloth or the like) to obtain a sample free of large particulates, then do your testing. It only takes a couple of drops to check the BRIX / SG with a refractometer, maybe a couple of ml to check the pH with your meter. You should do something similar when testing / adjusting must prior to AF. I typically mix well and scoop a bit (juice, skins, pulp and all) and put into a blender to puree it, then dump it into cheesecloth to collect the juice to test, works fine for me, doesn't take much.

As far as how the acid and sugar change on the vine, let me first say that I don't know much about muscadine grapes and their development, but assume that they progress on the vine in a fashion similar to the more familiar vinfera grapes. As they hang and mature, the acidity decreases, the sugar content increases, the seeds mature from a green to brown color, the tannins mature, and the flavors mature, all things you can see, measure, and taste. I do not know what your grapes' pH gets to when mature, but you can figure it out by monitoring the BRIX and pH every few days, and recording the readings. Grapes destined for white wine are normally picked early, while they still have some acidity in them (3.2, 3.3 or so). Grapes destined for big red wines are harvested later, letting the BRIX get up into the mid 20's or so, which can put pH's in the upper 3's in warm climates. Things like rainfall and drought can also affect the sugar / acidity, so harvesting at the proper time from a weather standpoint is in play as well. Your grapes may never reach BRIX in the 20's, or pH above 3, I just don't know about muscadines, but maybe one of our other members who grows them will chime in. Might be that you picked too early at 2.6, might never get better........You gotta be a farmer first, bolstered by the wine knowledge you have in your head, and the recorded history about how your particular vines grow, produce and mature, to pick at the right time.


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## M38A1 (Jul 11, 2018)

Perfect explanations in terms I can understand... Thank you.

Last year when we harvested, the grapes were a bit smaller and the skins had begun to shrivel just a little bit. In my mind I thought we were late but the challenge had been set to "lets try this". This years harvest was about 2 weeks later than last years, and the grapes were much 'fuller', 'plump', and the skins 'tight'. Color of the skins was considerably more consistent across all vines too. (don't you just love my non-technical descriptions?) So we decided it was time to pick. I'm fully aware that these differences are due to everything from how the soil may change year to year, sunshine days, rainfall throughout the year and temperature but don't really understand the correlations. Since they (Muscadines) just grow by themselves without tending to them, I've looked at it like "it is what it is". Now you've got me really thinking about developing a monitoring program to see if I can develop some baseline data from which to work. Like average monthly temperatures and rainfall amounts from now until next year's harvest. And if I can grab some grapes today and do the testing on them, I'll have that baseline data to look for changes as they mature into next year. Don't laugh, but I gave thought to this fall when the temps are cooler to actually cutting back and trying to train these vines on a structure with irrigation of some type. That's where my head goes with things like this...

Again, thank you.


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## Johnd (Jul 11, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Perfect explanations in terms I can understand... Thank you.
> 
> Last year when we harvested, the grapes were a bit smaller and the skins had begun to shrivel just a little bit. In my mind I thought we were late but the challenge had been set to "lets try this". This years harvest was about 2 weeks later than last years, and the grapes were much 'fuller', 'plump', and the skins 'tight'. Color of the skins was considerably more consistent across all vines too. (don't you just love my non-technical descriptions?) So we decided it was time to pick. I'm fully aware that these differences are due to everything from how the soil may change year to year, sunshine days, rainfall throughout the year and temperature but don't really understand the correlations. Since they (Muscadines) just grow by themselves without tending to them, I've looked at it like "it is what it is". Now you've got me really thinking about developing a monitoring program to see if I can develop some baseline data from which to work. Like average monthly temperatures and rainfall amounts from now until next year's harvest. And if I can grab some grapes today and do the testing on them, I'll have that baseline data to look for changes as they mature into next year. Don't laugh, but I gave thought to this fall when the temps are cooler to actually cutting back and trying to train these vines on a structure with irrigation of some type. That's where my head goes with things like this...
> 
> Again, thank you.



For the most part, you're harvesting wild fruit, maybe the best you can do is monitor the BRIX / pH a couple times a week and try to pick when the acid isn't as low and hard to deal with. In my experience, it's a bit harder to manage high acid / low pH than the inverse. You're doing just fine.......


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## M38A1 (Jul 11, 2018)

Yeast Pitch +24hrs update.

All three buckets have a foamy yeast layer on top covering about 70% of the surface area. Certainly no big bubbles and boiling action yet. I looked at my log from last year and I didn't even record measurements for the first two or three days so I'm not horribly concerned.

At what point should I add my Yeast Nutrient (Food Grade Urea and Diammonium Phosphate)? In a day or so if it begins to take off or tomorrow?

And with that Yeast Nutrient there were no instructions other than 1tsp/gallon. Is that stirred directly into the must? Mixed with water, dissolved and then added? (i'm guessing not the water method am-i-right-am-i-right-am-i-right?)  And I'll only use 1/2 of the recommended amount based on your input.

....and then I have Yeast Energizer (Diammonium Phosphate, Springcell, Magnesium Sulfate). Is there a preference between the two?

Thanks in advance!


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## Johnd (Jul 12, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Yeast Pitch +24hrs update.
> 
> All three buckets have a foamy yeast layer on top covering about 70% of the surface area. Certainly no big bubbles and boiling action yet. I looked at my log from last year and I didn't even record measurements for the first two or three days so I'm not horribly concerned.
> 
> ...



Energizer is like candy for yeast, I don’t use it. On to nutrients, of course you have DAP, let’s work with it this year, next year we’ll consider using DAP and Fermaid K. FWIW, I just measure the dosage, dump it into the must, stir, and move on. First half dose one you have active fermentation.


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## M38A1 (Jul 13, 2018)

Yeast Pitch +48hrs update.

All three primaries appear to be starting a foam cap and I can hear a slight bubbling if I get close. There are definite differences between the three in the quantity of that cap, but they all three have one which I take to be a good sign. I also added 2.5tsp of Yeast Nutrient to each primary which is 1/2 of the recommended amount.

Measurements this evening include:
I'll put a "/" between readings to keep them in one place to note change. I'm tracking this on a spreadsheet at the moment. The refractometer is tough to read, even when adjusted to my eyes and that's why I think there's some minor discrepancy in some of these.

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.0
SG: 1.095 / 1.094
Acid: .65%/Not Measured

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.7
SG: 1.095 / 1.095
Acid: .63%/Not Measured

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.8
SG: 1.097 / 1.095
Acid: .50%/Not Measured


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## Johnd (Jul 13, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Yeast Pitch +48hrs update.
> 
> All three primaries appear to be starting a foam cap and I can hear a slight bubbling if I get close. There are definite differences between the three in the quantity of that cap, but they all three have one which I take to be a good sign. I also added 2.5tsp of Yeast Nutrient to each primary which is 1/2 of the recommended amount.
> 
> ...



If you’re really using a refractometer, and not a hydrometer, it’s time to switch to the hydro, as alcohol distorts the readings in a refractometer, which then need to be corrected mathematically for a proper SG / BRIX.


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## M38A1 (Jul 13, 2018)

Johnd said:


> If you’re really using a refractometer, and not a hydrometer, it’s time to switch to the hydro, as alcohol distorts the readings in a refractometer, which then need to be corrected mathematically for a proper SG / BRIX.



John - Thank you. Just another little bit of important information in the learning process! I'll use my hydrometer from now on once yeast has been pitched. I might not be able to see the finer details of what the Brix numbers are with it, but I can surely see the SG numbers on the scale with the hydrometer. I'm getting ready to take some measurements here shortly and see if any movement happened last night with the addition of yeast nutrient.


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## Johnd (Jul 13, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> John - Thank you. Just another little bit of important information in the learning process! I'll use my hydrometer from now on once yeast has been pitched. I might not be able to see the finer details of what the Brix numbers are with it, but I can surely see the SG numbers on the scale with the hydrometer. I'm getting ready to take some measurements here shortly and see if any movement happened last night with the addition of yeast nutrient.



Lots of people do just what you are, working with refractometers before pitching yeast requires only a few drops of juice, and really easy to read through the eyepiece; then switching to the hydrometer to monitor fermentation.


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## M38A1 (Jul 13, 2018)

11:00am numbers.... We're at 2.5 days now and not seeing what I thought would be some good movements re: SG. All three had a light layer of foam on top again. Temps were 75/76*F across all three.

One big question is just 'how' to stir and take readings. For my pH meter, it gets cleaned in Distilled Water and then into the primary for testing. For my stirring spoon and thermometer, I wash it in a solution called Easy Clean which is new to me I got at the brew store, where I shake it dry leaving only surface tension of whatever remains on the item that winds up in the primary. It has no ingredients listed but smells like chlorine when dissolved in a one gallon bucket. Last year I had been using Campden Tabs crushed and dissolved but the brew guys said that kills the yeast from whatever Campden is still on the equipment going into the primary. And I see yeast particulates sticking to my metal spoon when I remove it from the primary. I'm so confused at the moment on what to do properly..... 

Roughly 60hrs post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.0 / Not Measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095
Acid: .65%/ Not Measured / Not Measured

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.7 / Not Measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095
Acid: .63%/ Not Measured / Not Measured

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.8 / Not Measured
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094
Acid: .50%/ Not Measured / Not Measured


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## garymc (Jul 13, 2018)

You could probably benefit from searching here for articles on muscadine wine. I recommend Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast. It eats some of the acid and leaves more of the fruity flavor and aroma of the muscadines. Muscadines are acidic, so you're not going to resolve that completely by delaying harvest. The hulls are tough, so you want to crush, ferment primary, then press at 1.030 or 1.020 SG. Your pectic enzyme should be added with the Campden or K-meta immediately upon crushing. The addition of water is not uncommon in making muscadine wine to reduce the acidity, especially with strong flavored wild muscadines. And, of course, backsweetening is another way to deal with acidity as well as the hotness of high alcohol content. I see people writing about using potassium carbonate or bicarbonate and then cautioning about messing up the flavor with too much. So, I go with 71B-1122 yeast and using simple syrup to reach the starting gravity and inverted sugar syrup for backsweetening.


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## M38A1 (Jul 13, 2018)

Thank you! I'll take all that into consideration on the next batch from the 48 or so lbs I have in the freezer. I just ran out of primaries to do it all at once.

Can you tell me the difference between simple syrup and inverted sugar syrup? I'm guessing simple syrup is 1:1 ratio of water to sugar and inverted is 1 part water to 2 parts sugar? This will be another term I'm adding to my list.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 13, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Can you tell me the difference between simple syrup and inverted sugar syrup? I'm guessing simple syrup is 1:1 ratio of water to sugar and inverted is 1 part water to 2 parts sugar? This will be another term I'm adding to my list.



AFAIK, those terms are synonymous and do not depend on the ratio.


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## M38A1 (Jul 13, 2018)

Re: the Easy Clean, I sent a request to LD Carlson about the product and here's their reply:

"The Easy Clean is an oxygen based cleaner that contains sodium percarbonates and sodium sulfate. You may be mistaking the sodium sulfate smell as chlorine. It does not contain chlorine and because of it being an oxygen based cleaner actually helps yeast during fermentation, not harm it"

Does this pass the "smell" test to you all as the experts, and is it OK to clean stirring spoons and tools and then use them directly in process?


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## M38A1 (Jul 13, 2018)

I'm thinking give this another 24hrs and if the numbers don't start changing do a re-pitch of the yeast? There's a foamy cap on top of each bucket and it's making bubbles on the surface and generating either humidity or heat when I get my hand close that cap layer. I'm thinking although I started with hot water in the cup and let it cool to the yeast 'range' then added yeast to the cup that the cup cooled down too quickly in that 15minutes? Maybe put the cup in hot water to act as a bath if anyone suggests I re-pitch? Or is this just kind of normal that sometimes it's on it's own schedule? Last year my PF (to 1.03SG) was done in 5, 4 and 7 days for the three batches.

Roughly 72hrs post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3 / 3.2
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.0 / Not Measured / Not Measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090
Acid: .65%/ Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 3.0
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.7 / Not Measured / Not Measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.09
Acid: .63%/ Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9 / 2.9
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.8 / Not Measured / Not Measured
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090
Acid: .50%/ Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured


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## garymc (Jul 14, 2018)

Google is your friend. Simple syrup is 1 cup of water and 2 cups of sugar. Or you can go by weight and it's a little more sugar to make twice the weight of water. Boil the water, add the sugar, stir and heat until it's a clear syrup.

Inverted sugar syrup is the same thing except you add a small amount of acid, such as citric, ascorbic, etc. The acid triggers the conversion of the sugar to inverted sugar. It tastes sweeter, ounce for ounce and may help in bringing back the fruit taste in a backsweetened wine. The amount of acid needed would vary depending on the volume of syrup you're making. You can google for recipes and proportions.


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## M38A1 (Jul 14, 2018)

Finally some movement in the right direction. The yeast still has a nice cap on top but seems a tad bit smaller than yesterday. Is this normal and I should just keep on letting it run without worry?

4 days post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3 / 3.2 / 3.2
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.0 / Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.06
Acid: .65%/ Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 2.9
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.7 / Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.09 / 1.07
Acid: .63%/ Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 2.9
BRIX: 24.8 / 24.8 / Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070
Acid: .50%/ Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured / Not Measured


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## Johnd (Jul 14, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Finally some movement in the right direction. The yeast still has a nice cap on top but seems a tad bit smaller than yesterday. Is this normal and I should just keep on letting it run without worry?
> 
> 4 days post pitch--->
> 
> ...



Now you’re rolling! Don’t forget your second nutrient dose, you definitely don’t want to add DAP too late, and since that’s what you have, get it in there.

Yes, the cap may go away entirely when you get rolling, EC-1118 is low foaming.


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## M38A1 (Jul 14, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Now you’re rolling! Don’t forget your second nutrient dose, you definitely don’t want to add DAP too late, and since that’s what you have, get it in there.
> 
> Yes, the cap may go away entirely when you get rolling, EC-1118 is low foaming.




Thank you, John! I'll get that done now!


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## Winwil22 (Jul 15, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Thank you, John! I'll get that done now!


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## Winwil22 (Jul 15, 2018)

Guys...ive been taking notes. This is my first year of production on 400 vines that are 3 yrs old.


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## M38A1 (Jul 15, 2018)

Winwil22 said:


> Guys...ive been taking notes. This is my first year of production on 400 vines that are 3 yrs old.



Welcome!

Muscadines? Where are you located?


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## Winwil22 (Jul 15, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Muscadines? Where are you located?


20 miles south of greensboro. Nc


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## M38A1 (Jul 15, 2018)

Winwil22 said:


> 20 miles south of greensboro. Nc



Roger that.... I saw Muscadines and was thinking SouthSouthWest US. Didn't know they were outside of this general area.


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## Winwil22 (Jul 15, 2018)

Winwil22 said:


> 20 miles south of greensboro. Nc





M38A1 said:


> Roger that.... I saw Muscadines and was thinking SouthSouthWest US. Didn't know they were outside of this general area.


Musci


M38A1 said:


> Roger that.... I saw Muscadines and was thinking SouthSouthWest US. Didn't know they were outside of this general area.


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## Winwil22 (Jul 15, 2018)

Winwil22 said:


> Musci


The mother vine of all muscadines is located at Hatters nc


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## M38A1 (Jul 15, 2018)

....and we're off to the races I think.

5 days post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3 / 3.2 / 3.2 / 3.3
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 2.9 / 3.1
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 3.0
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055


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## Johnd (Jul 16, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> ....and we're off to the races I think.
> 
> 5 days post pitch--->
> 
> ...



Your SG numbers are dropping nicely, fermentation is doing well. 

Regarding your pH readings, they are skewed when taking readings from an active fermentation as the CO2 present in the wine causes false readings. If you want to take the pH during fermentation, take a sample out, put in a small vessel, and shake it bunch to release CO2, then you can get an accurate reading.


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## M38A1 (Jul 16, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Your SG numbers are dropping nicely, fermentation is doing well.
> 
> Regarding your pH readings, they are skewed when taking readings from an active fermentation as the CO2 present in the wine causes false readings. If you want to take the pH during fermentation, take a sample out, put in a small vessel, and shake it bunch to release CO2, then you can get an accurate reading.



Ok. Do I toss the sample or pour it back in? I'll do that with tonights measurements.


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## Johnd (Jul 16, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Ok. Do I toss the sample or pour it back in? I'll do that with tonights measurements.



If you sanitize everything that touches the wine, dump it back in.


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## M38A1 (Jul 16, 2018)

Alrighty, things are progressing John! Today was such a long day there's no way I can rack off #1 and #2 tonight as not being quite ready so they'll have to wait until tomorrow evening and probably be a little past 1.030. Which brings me to my next set of questions....

1) I'll clean/sanitize my siphon/tube, 5gal carboys, bungs and airlocks. Then I siphon from my plastic tub primary to my secondary carboy, right? I'll grab the SG and pH at that time. What do I do if the carboy doesn't fill to the top leaving headspace? Can I add something like a welches grape juice? I have no comparable wines (but I could get something at Specs if needed) I'll affix the airlock, fill it with vodka and smile, right?

2) Do I add anything at this point? I'm thinking when it transfers at 1.030 to the secondary it just sits there, percolates and I monitor it again daily for SG.

3) When we get to 1.000 or .995, then I kill the fermentation with something, right? 

Looking down the road, I have on my shelf Gelatine Finnings, Sparkolloid Powder, Wine Tannin, Acid Blend and a bag of Bentonite to mix in 5gal of product. Should I get more/different stuff in the next few days? 

This is exciting! And THANK YOU...... 

6 days post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.5 / 3.4 / 3.3 / 3.2 / 3.2 / 3.3 / Not measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 2.9 / 3.1 / Not measured
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
pH: 3.2 / 3.2 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 2.9 / 3.0 / Not measured
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045


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## Johnd (Jul 16, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Alrighty, things are progressing John! Today was such a long day there's no way I can rack off #1 and #2 tonight as not being quite ready so they'll have to wait until tomorrow evening and probably be a little past 1.030. Which brings me to my next set of questions....
> 
> 1) I'll clean/sanitize my siphon/tube, 5gal carboys, bungs and airlocks. Then I siphon from my plastic tub primary to my secondary carboy, right? I'll grab the SG and pH at that time. What do I do if the carboy doesn't fill to the top leaving headspace? Can I add something like a welches grape juice? I have no comparable wines (but I could get something at Specs if needed) I'll affix the airlock, fill it with vodka and smile, right?
> 
> ...



Yes on the sanitizing, be clean as possible. Fill your carboys above the shoulder, but not into the neck, and don’t transfer until you’re below 1.010, wait til 1.000 if you can. No need to top up at this point, CO2 is still protecting. Headspace is ok right now.

When you rack again later, after fermentation, be prepared to top up with an inexpensive wine, you should be able to find some rose’ to work just fine.

You don’t kill fermentation, it stops on its own when the sugar is all gone, SG below .998 and unchanged for three consecutive days.

You have enough chems for fining if you choose that route, pectic enzyme may be needed, but you’ve got time.

For now, stay the course and plan to rack / transfer near 1.000.


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## sour_grapes (Jul 17, 2018)

John said it perfectly.


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## M38A1 (Jul 17, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Yes on the sanitizing, be clean as possible. Fill your carboys above the shoulder, but not into the neck, and don’t transfer until you’re below 1.010, wait til 1.000 if you can. No need to top up at this point, CO2 is still protecting. Headspace is ok right now.
> 
> When you rack again later, after fermentation, be prepared to top up with an inexpensive wine, you should be able to find some rose’ to work just fine.
> 
> ...






sour_grapes said:


> John said it perfectly.




Thank you - Thank you - Thank you!
Last night I was thinking about this and I recalled what you are saying. That either the sugars are gone or the yeast can't tolerate the alcohol content and dies on it's own. You two confirmed it so I'll rack #1 and #2 off tonight and report back. My kitchen smells wonderfully good now!


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## M38A1 (Jul 17, 2018)

Well, it's not pretty that's for sure.... Hmmmm.....

Moved all three primaries to secondary carboys fitted with airlocks this evening. Moved them at 1.02 / 1.02 and 1.03SG. I can't figure out what's so different than last year. Last year I pressed the grapes with a grape press, used about the same amount of water and sugar per 5-gal primaries, same yeast and that looked pretty, like a pale red should. This year was much the same with the only difference in that I used the bucket press and didn't include the must bag for the primary fermentation. If I were to say the one on the left was a wild grape wine I think most would agree. The middle and right one? They look more like apple cider to me. Oh well, let's just let them roll like they are and settle and see what happens, right? I've been reading many comments that time is your best friend for this first and subsequent racking. And yes - that's the settling already going on in those bottles. Those yeast and lees are thick. Very thick. This shot was taken as the last of the three was racked from primary to secondary carboy.








As a reference point, this was last year moving from primary to secondary carboy. The only real difference was the use of the press and the must bag was present for all of primary fermentation


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## M38A1 (Jul 17, 2018)

I suppose the color really boils down to the use of the must bag vs not using it?


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## Johnd (Jul 18, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> I suppose the color really boils down to the use of the must bag vs not using it?



It certainly does. The juice of most red / black grapes is clear, with colors being present in the skins. The longer the juice sits with, and is fermented with the skins, the more color that is extracted. By controlling just that, using Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, one could craft a very light rose’ or a dark brooding wine, and anything in between. 

White wines typically look a bit brownish before clearing, those could certainly do the same. The one on the left may be your rose’.


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## M38A1 (Jul 18, 2018)

I have to admit, this is fun just watching the three glass carboys 'boil&roll' all on their own. With the glass, you can easily see all these little lava flows rising then sinking only to repeat themselves time and time again while the airlock just keeps burping away. I know - I'm easily amused.... 

On a serious note, my understanding is the fermentation will cease around the .995 mark. Do I have to do anything at this time other than just watch it and then measure SG when it appears to be slowing down considerably? Not sure I want to rack it with this much activity going on. And there must be 1/2 gallon of yeast/lees in the bottom of a couple and close to a gallon in another while still boiling/rolling. I also understand as long as it bubbles, I've got a layer of protection on top, so I'll need some direction in that racking/off-gassing part when we get there.


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## Johnd (Jul 18, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> I have to admit, this is fun just watching the three glass carboys 'boil&roll' all on their own. With the glass, you can easily see all these little lava flows rising then sinking only to repeat themselves time and time again while the airlock just keeps burping away. I know - I'm easily amused....
> 
> On a serious note, my understanding is the fermentation will cease around the .995 mark. Do I have to do anything at this time other than just watch it and then measure SG when it appears to be slowing down considerably? Not sure I want to rack it with this much activity going on. And there must be 1/2 gallon of yeast/lees in the bottom of a couple and close to a gallon in another while still boiling/rolling. I also understand as long as it bubbles, I've got a layer of protection on top, so I'll need some direction in that racking/off-gassing part when we get there.



You racked a little early, but have enough airspace to prevent a volcano, so no worries there. 

SG’s can go as low as .990, so just take your readings daily. When you get the same reading below .998, three days in a row, you can safely assume that the yeast has done all it will do. At that point, you may still see airlock activity for a while as the CO2 begins to come out of solution, so don’t let that throw you. I like to let the wine sit a few more days, letting more sediment fall out and compact before racking. When you rack, leave the sediment behind, and add you pot. meta. at the rate of 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons, and TOP UP and airlock. You’ll have nothing further to do for 3 months unless you try manual degassing or adding agents to speed the clearing.


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## M38A1 (Jul 18, 2018)

Well crap. Now that I re-read your instructions above about moving from primary to secondary at 1.000 I feel pretty stupid. Please don't hate me for not following your guidance. I just had a brain hiccup and wasn't thinking and it certainly wasn't intentionally disobedient.


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## Johnd (Jul 19, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Well crap. Now that I re-read your instructions above about moving from primary to secondary at 1.000 I feel pretty stupid. Please don't hate me for not following your guidance. I just had a brain hiccup and wasn't thinking and it certainly wasn't intentionally disobedient.



There are few absolutes in winemaking, and countless best practices, and this falls into the latter, though it will have more impact when you have skins in the mix.


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## M38A1 (Jul 22, 2018)

Update time and process questions! 
So if I understand correctly, all the sugar should now be consumed and converted to alcohol at this point. This was day one reading of the SG at the 'done' mark, so I need to do this two more days and see if it changes, right? If it doesn't change any, then I go ahead and rack off the 'good stuff' into a clean sterilized carboy leaving the gross lees behind for the compost pile. When racked off to that clean secondary, that's also when I add potassium metabisulphite at the rate of 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons (to protect the new product against nasties), and TOP UP with the rose I bought and airlock it. I can then lit it sit for three months to settle and then check in on this batch, right?

OR.......
Is the manual degassing a 'best practices' thing and should I do it? And should I add clearing agents of any type and if so, when? 

Right now I tried it and there's little doubt I made (well, the yeast made) alcohol. If my calculations are correct, this comes in about 13.75% ABV and it definitely has an alcohol smell and taste to it as well as a somewhat carbonated feel across the tongue. It's not really that great at the moment either so I'll need some guidance in that department when the appropriate time comes.



12 days post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035 / *.990*

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035 / *.990*

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045 / *1.000*


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## Johnd (Jul 23, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Update time and process questions!
> So if I understand correctly, all the sugar should now be consumed and converted to alcohol at this point. This was day one reading of the SG at the 'done' mark, so I need to do this two more days and see if it changes, right? If it doesn't change any, then I go ahead and rack off the 'good stuff' into a clean sterilized carboy leaving the gross lees behind for the compost pile. When racked off to that clean secondary, that's also when I add potassium metabisulphite at the rate of 1/4 tsp / 6 gallons (to protect the new product against nasties), and TOP UP with the rose I bought and airlock it. I can then lit it sit for three months to settle and then check in on this batch, right?
> 
> OR.......
> ...



You are correct with your process, though bucket 3 may still need some time to complete. If you intend to age your wine in bulk (that would be my suggestion) then you do not need to degas, time will allow the gas to dissipate, and will also allow the flavors to develop.


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## M38A1 (Jul 23, 2018)

Thank you, John.


Johnd said:


> You are correct with your process, though bucket 3 may still need some time to complete. If you intend to age your wine in bulk (that would be my suggestion) then you do not need to degas, time will allow the gas to dissipate, and will also allow the flavors to develop.



So "bulk" aging is clearing it in the carboy and letting it age there, right? The other is "bottle aging" where you degas, bottle and then let it age?


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## Johnd (Jul 23, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> Thank you, John.
> 
> 
> So "bulk" aging is clearing it in the carboy and letting it age there, right? The other is "bottle aging" where you degas, bottle and then let it age?



That is mostly correct, when we speak of "bulk" aging, it generally refers to storing your wine in large vessels (carboys, barrels, tanks), where your wine will both clear and degas, before going into the bottle. In bulk is definitely the place that you want your wine to degas and clear up, so you don't put gassy or cloudy wines in bottles. Additionally, during this time, the wine also begins to mature and develop its flavor profile and aroma, so you still have a chance to make any modifications that you see fit prior to bottling.


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## M38A1 (Jul 24, 2018)

We're at the bingo-point on two of the three! Yay!!!!

So what I'll do is let this sit 2 more days until Thursday night, then rack off #1 and #2 to clean carboys, add K-Meta at your rate above, top off with the Rose' and airlock them and into the closet they go. I'll let #3 run it's course and do the same when I get those three days of no movement. 

Then I suppose we get to talk about what happens in those next three months, right? I'm guessing keep an eye on the airlock fluid level for sure.

14 days post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035 / *.990 / .990 day 3*

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035 / *.990 / .990 day 3*

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045 / *1.000 / .994*


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## Johnd (Jul 25, 2018)

@M38A1 said: “Then I suppose we get to talk about what happens in those next three months, right? I'm guessing keep an eye on the airlock fluid level for sure.”

Yep, keep an eye on it, should be fine, but check it, and that’s it. 

Now’s when it gets fun, the bug has bitten, you’ve gained understanding of the process, and you’ll probably start looking to ferment anything that can’t run away. Fall grape season is around the corner, find some grape growers in your area or a distributor, try your hand at fruit, whatever you can to keep from messing with the completed batches.


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## M38A1 (Jul 25, 2018)

Johnd said:


> @M38A1 said: “Then I suppose we get to talk about what happens in those next three months, right? I'm guessing keep an eye on the airlock fluid level for sure.”
> 
> Yep, keep an eye on it, should be fine, but check it, and that’s it.
> 
> Now’s when it gets fun, the bug has bitten, you’ve gained understanding of the process, and you’ll probably start looking to ferment anything that can’t run away. Fall grape season is around the corner, find some grape growers in your area or a distributor, try your hand at fruit, whatever you can to keep from messing with the completed batches.



I think you're right! I bought two more 3-gal glass carboys last night since I think the 3's seem a little easier to work with. Then again, if I go through all the trouble/same steps - why don't I just get five or six gallon ones? Yep Johnd, the bug has bitten! Then I go back and look at the fact I've got those three 5gal Muscadine's ready to rack/age, about 3 gal of last years Muscadines in PF, and my IKEA Ligonberry approaching it's bingo-point to rack/age I'd say that's plenty for my first 'real' attempt. Of course, those new 3gal's are for the strawberry I want to kick off this weekend.  And there's that WE CabSav 5gal I bought to make a kit wine along with the 1gal Merlot and 1gal Moscotto. Yikes. That's a lot of wine......

Seriously though, I'm forever grateful for all the time and effort you and the others have provided in this adventure. While this batch is going, I'll go back and re-read this thread and try to document it into proper steps along with my 'why' notes to reinforce what I've learned. This I believe has provided a solid base from which I can try to be consistent, and only then can I start 'playing' to see/taste the differences.


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## cmason1957 (Jul 25, 2018)

I will second your comment of going through all the same steps to make 3 gallons as you do to make 5 or 6 gallons. I very, very seldom make a 3 gallon batch of any anything, why bother for 15 bottles. I even do my higher alcohol ports in 750 Ml bottles.


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## M38A1 (Jul 27, 2018)

16 days post pitch--->

*Bucket #1*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.060 / 1.050 / 1.035 / *.990 / .990 day 3*
Racked #1 to a clean carboy with k-meta added this evening. Final numbers were SG.990 and pH 3.4. Got mostly a clean rack and cane done and topped off with about 3L of a Rose'. That gave the entire 5gal bottle a nice color. Carboy was airlocked. 

*Bucket #2*
Volume: 5.0 gallons
SG: 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.095 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.052 / 1.035 / *.990 / .990 day 3*
Racked #2 to a clean carboy with k-meta added this evening. Final numbers were SG.990 and pH 3.7. This 5gal was racked to a 3gal carboy and the excess to a 1gal jug. Both were airlocked. For grins I added 1/2 spiral of toasted medium oak. I have no clue what that will do but it sounded fun.

*Bucket #3*
Volume: 4-5/8 gallons
SG: 1.097 / 1.095 / 1.094 / 1.090 / 1.070 / 1.055 / 1.045 / *1.000 / .994*
Number #3 is lagging a bit behind the others by a few days. Sitting at day 2 of SG.990 and no movement so I'm guessing Friday will be day three so I'm looking at Sunday for racking/airlock.

I tried a sip of all three and it really wasn't good. I thought it was 'bubbly' across the tongue but there are no bubbles present so I'm guessing that's the CO2 which will off-gas over the next three months. It didn't have much 'flavor' to it, like barely any grape. It was way too smooth across the pallet, i.e. no 'bite' other than the alcohol. I'm guessing I can add some tannins at the three month mark to correct that?

That's all I've got to update on these.... My IKEA Ligonberry is progressing as is my 2017 batch of Muscadines (but that one has a nasty smell to it....)
*
*


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## cmason1957 (Jul 27, 2018)

Here's an un asked for tip that I do when I have 3 or 4 carboys of the same and I want a consistent wine at the end. Every racking I take as close to the same amount from each and mix them together. It's not like I measure or anything, but I start racking at carboy #1 take some, then on to #2 take some and end in #3.


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## Johnd (Jul 27, 2018)

Nice to see you get to the finish line, your pH readings may be off from the presence of CO2. Recall the discussion we had about fermenting with vs without skins. Wine produced from juice squeezed from the grapes with no skin contact will be the lightest in color, body, flavor and tannin content. Other end of the scale, wine fermented with the grapes present during (and maybe after) fermentation produces the wine with the heaviest color, body, flavor and tannin content. Where are you on the scale? Was the wine diluted with water, also diluting the color, body, flavor and tannins? You’re seeing the picture. 

CO2 sting on your tongue and young wine will tend to hide flavors, you may find that your wine will become more fruity as time passes and CO2 dissipates. If you do some backsweetening down the road, that also tends to bring the fruity flavors forward.


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## M38A1 (Jul 27, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> Here's an un asked for tip that I do when I have 3 or 4 carboys of the same and I want a consistent wine at the end. Every racking I take as close to the same amount from each and mix them together. It's not like I measure or anything, but I start racking at carboy #1 take some, then on to #2 take some and end in #3.



Thanks.... and un-asked for tips are always appreciated as it opens beginner's eyes to options. 

The funny part is, I gave thought to doing just this, yet my analytical side said "but what if you have that nasty barn smell bacteria Brett develop on one of them, then you'll contaminate the others" so I didn't do it on the off-chance it happens and I ruin the whole thing.


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## M38A1 (Jul 27, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Nice to see you get to the finish line, your pH readings may be off from the presence of CO2. Recall the discussion we had about fermenting with vs without skins. Wine produced from juice squeezed from the grapes with no skin contact will be the lightest in color, body, flavor and tannin content. Other end of the scale, wine fermented with the grapes present during (and maybe after) fermentation produces the wine with the heaviest color, body, flavor and tannin content. Where are you on the scale? Was the wine diluted with water, also diluting the color, body, flavor and tannins? You’re seeing the picture.
> 
> CO2 sting on your tongue and young wine will tend to hide flavors, you may find that your wine will become more fruity as time passes and CO2 dissipates. If you do some backsweetening down the road, that also tends to bring the fruity flavors forward.



Yes, I recall that conversation but I got it a bit mixed up with another one! So I've got two good take-aways now regarding readings to include 1) SG is SG regardless of alcohol content whereas BRIX is straight sugar content and has to be adjusted if alcohol is present, and 2) pH can give misleading readings in the presence of CO2. 

My friend who was over last night while racking said "boy - this is a lot of chemistry and work". My reply? "Yeah, but isn't this just plain old fun to try and make something you can hopefully enjoy"? She just laughed.....


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## M38A1 (Jul 29, 2018)

So all the Muscadines are now in their first real racking now and will sit there for three months. Is there anything I should be considering during this period? Or are there any things I should be purchasing (additives) to aid in clearing/clarification, taste etc?


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## Johnd (Jul 29, 2018)

M38A1 said:


> So all the Muscadines are now in their first real racking now and will sit there for three months. Is there anything I should be considering during this period? Or are there any things I should be purchasing (additives) to aid in clearing/clarification, taste etc?



Not at the moment. Plenty of time now to address whatever comes along. This is the hard part, doing nothing......


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## M38A1 (Jul 30, 2018)

Johnd said:


> Not at the moment. Plenty of time now to address whatever comes along. This is the hard part, doing nothing......



"....doing nothing....." lol

I've thawed the frozen strawberries, purchased the white grape juice and sugar so I'm sort of committed now to starting that Strawberry wine. And I've been reading the 'staging' of how you all do this - just make batches throughout the year and to get started, choose a wine that's ready in a month or three to carry you through the waiting. yep - sounds like a plan!


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## robert81650 (Sep 24, 2018)

When you get old and back problems, 3 gallon carboys are much easier to work with. 15 bottles of one type of wine is enough for me. I like to experiment with different combs of fruits. Just my opinion.


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