# BlackBerry wine



## silverbullet07 (Aug 28, 2020)

I’m new to wine making and researching for my first couple of wines to start with.
I would like to do a blackberry. I like mine real dark and blackberry. Most recipes call for 4lb to a gal. Is that enough to make real dark And blackberry? Would double or triple be better? wondering how much to buy.

another question is the recipe says it make 1 gal. 4lb blackberry and 7 pints of water. So if we are right at 1 gal juice when we rack to secondary will we be short and have to much space in the top of a 1 gal jug?


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> I’m new to wine making and researching for my first couple of wines to start with.
> I would like to do a blackberry. I like mine real dark and blackberry. Most recipes call for 4lb to a gal. Is that enough to make real dark And blackberry? Would double or triple be better? wondering how much to buy.
> 
> another question is the recipe says it make 1 gal. 4lb blackberry and 7 pints of water. So if we are right at 1 gal juice when we rack to secondary will we be short and have to much space in the top of a 1 gal jug?


check out homewinery.com they make 55 different concentrates but unlike normal concentrates it is also reduced, they say each concentrate is good for 5 gallons, nope each is good for 4 gallon, i buy 3 concentrates, in my ferment barrel i add 12 gallons of water plus the 3 half gallon concentrates, that gives you 13.5 gallon in ferment barrel, now i keep 16oz, 32oz, 64oz, and 1 gallon jugs with 38-400 threads, these i use for topping off at each rocking, all use the same size drilled bung 6.5 so once your ferment is over then you put your must into carboys and the extra in your top off jugs all of which will be airlocked, now if you only wish to do i 6 gallon carboy you can call them and order 1 concentrate plus 2 pints, or if you want to do a 5 gallon buy 1 concentrate plus 1 pint of same concentrate, online they only sell in half gal concentrates, you must make your entire order on the phone to get pints, when i have homegrown blackberries i go at least 6 lb per gallon, mine are all but black in color even when held up to the brite sun, you pick the ABV you want, ferment dry, .996ish, then rack every couple 3 months till all gasses are gone and all lees ,sediment gone, then backsweeten to your desired sweetness, on country wines the sweeter the ore like the taste to berry of fruit, mine at bottling time has a SG of 1.040
BTW i use small universel bungs for my glass carboys, that bung you can turn upside down and it will fit a clear wine bottle to airlock, 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

if you are doing smaller batches then order 1 concentrate use 1 pint to one gallon water that's 1 gallon must plus 1 pint of top off must, so when you rack you'll have that extra for topping off with. BTW welcome to WMT,,,
Dawg


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Most recipes call for 4lb to a gal


If you plan to use fruit, more is better in most cases. In other words, only add water if needed to intentionally reduce the flavor.

When I make blackberry, I don't add water and that means it takes about 10lbs or so of fruit per gallon. Even then, the flavor is rich, delicious and not overwhelming. Same for blueberry, strawberry, etc.

The only problem with fruit wines is that the pH, acid and sugar are not necessarily where they should be for wine. So you will need the equipment to measure your acid and sugar (and pH if you can) so you can make the corrections. 

Fruit wines can be more challenging but are wonderful when are done.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> check out homewinery.com they make 55 different concentrates but unlike normal concentrates it is also reduced, they say each concentrate is good for 5 gallons, nope each is good for 4 gallon, i buy 3 concentrates, in my ferment barrel i add 12 gallons of water plus the 3 half gallon concentrates, that gives you 13.5 gallon in ferment barrel, now i keep 16oz, 32oz, 64oz, and 1 gallon jugs with 38-400 threads, these i use for topping off at each rocking, all use the same size drilled bung 6.5 so once your ferment is over then you put your must into carboys and the extra in your top off jugs all of which will be airlocked, now if you only wish to do i 6 gallon carboy you can call them and order 1 concentrate plus 2 pints, or if you want to do a 5 gallon buy 1 concentrate plus 1 pint of same concentrate, online they only sell in half gal concentrates, you must make your entire order on the phone to get pints, when i have homegrown blackberries i go at least 6 lb per gallon, mine are all but black in color even when held up to the brite sun, you pick the ABV you want, ferment dry, .996ish, then rack every couple 3 months till all gasses are gone and all lees ,sediment gone, then backsweeten to your desired sweetness, on country wines the sweeter the ore like the taste to berry of fruit, mine at bottling time has a SG of 1.040
> BTW i use small universel bungs for my glass carboys, that bung you can turn upside down and it will fit a clear wine bottle to airlock,
> Dawg



Thanks Dawg. Lots of good information to think about. My local wine brew store carries the Vintner's Harvest Fruit Puree. Not sure how that compares to what you stated above.

I found this recipe which calls for 6 lbs of blackberries. They call it a full body blackberry wine Which sounds more what I like.

Could I follow this recipe below for my first try? I will triple it for a 3 gal batch. I purchased 18lbs of frozen blackberries last night. For the yeast, I have Red star primer classique Montrachet 

Blackberry Wine – Full-Bodied
One Gallon
• 6 lb. Blackberries
• 2.5 lb. Sugar (5 cups)
• 1⁄2 tsp. Pectic Enzyme
• 1⁄2 tsp. Acid Blend
• 1 tsp. Yeast Nutrient
• One Campden Tablet
• One Gallon of Water
• One Package of Yeast 


Sanitize all equipment. 
Put 1⁄2 gallon of water in a pan on the stove to boil. Stir 2 cups of the sugar into the water until well dissolved. When water begins to boil, remove from heat and set aside. Crush the fruit well and place it in a nylon fruit bag. Tie bag closed. Place juice and fruit in the primary fermentation vessel. Pour hot sugar water over the fruit bag. Add remaining water to approximately one gallon of liquid in primary fermentation vessel. Stir well. Check Specific Gravity. It should be around 1.084 to provide a wine of about 11% alcohol when fermented to dryness. If necessary or desired, add the remaining sugar to increase the SG. Add Pectic Enzyme, Acid Blend and Yeast Nutrient. Crush the Campden Tablet and add to the liquid. Stir well. Cover with a cloth and set aside for 24 hours. After 24 hours, add Yeast. (Your Yeast will be working vigorously and will need oxygen at this stage. Do not deprive them of the necessary oxygen by closing off the fermentation vessel.)
Keep in primary fermentation and covered with a cloth for about five days (SG is around 1.040), punching down the fruit every day. After five days, drain the fruit bag (do not squeeze it) and rack the wine into the secondary fermentation vessel with an air lock.

Rack at one month. Wine should be dry or near dry. Rack again at two months. At three months, rack wine again. If wine does not appear clear enough, wait an additional month and rack again. When wine appears satisfactorily clear, at racking add one campden tablet, sweeten to taste and stabilize with Sorbistat K. After two or three weeks (and ensuring that wine does not begin to re- ferment), bottle the wine. Let the wine bottles stand up for at least three days. After three days, lay bottles on their sides in a dark place for at least six months (light, sweet Blackberry wine can be drunk immediately).


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

jgmillr1 said:


> If you plan to use fruit, more is better in most cases. In other words, only add water if needed to intentionally reduce the flavor.
> 
> When I make blackberry, I don't add water and that means it takes about 10lbs or so of fruit per gallon. Even then, the flavor is rich, delicious and not overwhelming. Same for blueberry, strawberry, etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply
I found a Blackberry wine - Full Body I posted above. It is 6lbs Blackberry per gal. I may try it as a starter Wine and then make adjustments on the next batch based on my likes or dislikes. It may be a good starting point.

I have a ph meter coming. I have a triple scale wine hydroMeter to measure sugar. I have not been able to find clear instructions on measuring acid yet. I still need more information on that. I am thinking the PH meter will give me the information I need to make adjustments to the acid content. 

The recipe I posted calls for acid blend. Blackberries are high in acid and adding more acid worries me. Maybe the water addition is lowering it enough to not worry about the additions. But if I can find more detail on measure acid I may be able to figure that out.


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> I am thinking the PH meter will give me the information I need to make adjustments to the acid content.


You will also want to get calibration standards for your meter if you haven't already.

The pH meter will also let you titrate and get a measurement of TA. This is how your mouth perceives acidity. Dry wines are 5-6g/L while sweet wines are 8-10g/L, roughly speaking.

The pH of the wine affects the microbes and directs how much sulfites to add. Yeasts like a pH greater than 3.1. 

You'll have to see whether you need to add acid or deacidify to achieve the right range of pH and TA.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

jgmillr1 said:


> The pH meter will also let you titrate and get a measurement of TA. This is how your mouth perceives acidity. Dry wines are 5-6g/L while sweet wines are 8-10g/L, roughly speaking.



This I need more information on and how to to take the measurement. I can not seem to find that info yet.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

Found this video that explained the process.


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Thanks Dawg. Lots of good information to think about. My local wine brew store carries the Vintner's Harvest Fruit Puree. Not sure how that compares to what you stated above.
> 
> I found this recipe which calls for 6 lbs of blackberries. They call it a full body blackberry wine Which sounds more what I like.
> 
> ...


i go pure fruit or berry, but nothing made this year in my area way to dry, and homewinery.com is my fallback, goo\d luck
SKOAL
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Aug 29, 2020)

To get directly to your initial question - With real blackberries (Wild ones at least ) you can use 5-7 lbs and get a good wine. Four (4) pounds is not enough. More is better as long as the acidity doesn't go to high. So if your pH is lower than 3.25, you might have a problem with the fermentation. I don't measure TA but prefer to go by taste. Further once fermentation is over you can adjust the acidity IF needed, but I've never had a problem with that. Houddawg make a good suggestion about concentrates. They are very good IF, and this makes a difference, IF the concentrate is a single fruit variety - Not a mix of Blackberry, Apple, Pear, Grape juice. So if you go looking for concentrates and you really want to make a BLACKBERRY wine, be sure that the concentrate you buy is not a mix of different types of juice. AND as Dawg suggests if they say its enough to make 5 gallons, go no more that 3 or 4 gallons and you will have a much better wine. 
One last thing. I've not found many fruit wines that don't benefit from at least a little back-sweetening. Even if you like dry wines, you will find that just a little bit of sweetening brings out a lot of flavor. You can always test it with a 1 cup sample first before you commit to sweetening up the entire batch.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

Should I measure PH and TA before before Adding the 1⁄2 tsp. Acid. Seems all the Fruit recipes call for This.


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Should I measure PH and TA before before Adding the 1⁄2 tsp. Acid. Seems all the Fruit recipes call for This.


only with country wines if you please test before yeast or before bottling check your PH and shoot for 3.6ish depending on if you want bite, 3'6ish is smooth as silk, 
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

hounddawg said:


> only with country wines if you please test before yeast or before bottling check your PH and shoot for 3.6ish depending on if you want bite, 3'6ish is smooth as silk,
> Dawg


So to make sure I’m clear,
after adding berries, water and getting sugar correct shoot for
Specific Gravity 1.084
test PH if < 3.6 add some acid blend to raise PH Shoot for 3.6
Add Pectic Enzyme, Acid Blend and Yeast Nutrient. Crush the Campden Tablets and add to the liquid. Stir well. 24-48 add yeast. 
when time to bottle check SG add sugar syrup to back sweet To
1.010 to 1.025 Testing for taste
check PH and TA
make adjusts before bottle.


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## Fencepost (Aug 29, 2020)

Another option.... I have made straight up blackberry, and I have made Danger Dave's Dragon Blood Blackberry (with 12lbs of BBs). I actually prefer the Danger Daves... it's pretty dark when finished. But if you want it darker, I have mixed it with a cabernet I had made... and liked that even better. Do what suits your taste... this forum is great to help out with any questions at all, but always seems to comes back to "Patience" and make it so YOU enjoy it. Danger Dave's Dragon Blood is under Recipes... and it is pretty much a can't miss recipe. Good Luck and Enjoy!


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> So to make sure I’m clear,
> after adding berries, water and getting sugar correct shoot for
> Specific Gravity 1.084
> test PH if < 3.6 add some acid blend to raise PH Shoot for 3.6
> ...


yes, as for TA that's more of a grape thing, i've never tested for TA, and yes before yeast balance/test your PH to 3.6ish, but then you asked about adding acid blend with Pectic enzyme and the rest of your ingredients, no more acid blend till bottling time if you need it, taste at each step so you'll train your mouth to be your second instrestment right behind your all important hydrometer
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Aug 29, 2020)

*Always* Test the pH before adding any acid blend ! Increasing acidity is easy and relatively quick to do. Reducing acidity is a slower process and its easy to over do it.


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

this is a DDDB, made with concentrate from the site mentioned my blackberry is darker than this, this is robust, full flavored wine,
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks. Everyone. I been reading this info and it has help. pHiguring out pH - WineMakerMag.com


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 29, 2020)

Fencepost said:


> Another option.... I have made straight up blackberry, and I have made Danger Dave's Dragon Blood Blackberry (with 12lbs of BBs). I actually prefer the Danger Daves... it's pretty dark when finished. But if you want it darker, I have mixed it with a cabernet I had made... and liked that even better. Do what suits your taste... this forum is great to help out with any questions at all, but always seems to comes back to "Patience" and make it so YOU enjoy it. Danger Dave's Dragon Blood is under Recipes... and it is pretty much a can't miss recipe. Good Luck and Enjoy!


Is that this recipe? But just change fruit to the 12 bb






DangerDave's Dragon Blood Wine


DangerDave’s Dragon Blood Wine My name is David C. Land (dangerdave). I am a firefighter from southern Ohio who started making wine in August 2011. Like most of you, I began slowly, but was soon bitten by the wine bug and started making many kits in my spare time. After gaining this valuable...




www.winemakingtalk.com


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## hounddawg (Aug 29, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Is that this recipe? But just change fruit to the 12 bb
> 
> 
> 
> ...


more or less, a recipe can be converted to just about any fruit or berry wine, you just add less fruit that is heavy in flavor, like wild blackberry i go around 5 to 6 lbs per gallon, or you can press and use straight juice, on banana, apple and other lite flavors i go 12 lb to the gallon, most concentrates are not pure single fruit and are weak as well, they say walkers is great but expensive, where as the site i gave you is reduced, that is they press the fruit then evaporate the water out, i have certain fruits and berries, but this year dry weather wiped out all my fruits and berries, plus being disabled, 1 fake leg below the knee and half a foot on other side, so i am heated to reduced concentrates, lol,, make your wine to suit yourself or your better half, lol,, and ask as you go along, once you've made a couple small batches you'll have your confidence, and away you'll go making better then you can buy, @Scooter68 , @sour_grapes , @Rice_Guy , @dralarms all can teach you as you go. they are good as are most all the long time members, now these i mention do country wines, and a few of them do traditional grape wines as well. @KCCam is another, to many to put here, but these as well as being knowledgeable they are good at patience as well , most of the purest traditional grape wine makers are are pretty intense, by that i mean they are very numbers, and fancy ways, me i am simple, go for it, you'll learn better by doing a small batch and asking questions as you go, hit forum upper right go to recipe thread, find a recipe you think you might like, then start and post your thread of what your making, they'll watch over you more then you'll know, and feel free to ask questions, there are no dumb questions, just sanitize everything with potassium metabisulfite called K-meta for short, get your chemicals, carboys, jugs, bungs airlocks, oh and always keep at least 2 hydrometers, if not you'll break one when needed most, i unlike most on here live where i have to order all online, except sugar and fruits/berries, lol except this year i'll be using concentrates due to drought in my area, 
Dawg


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## Fencepost (Aug 30, 2020)

That's it. and yes, I just double the fruit (all fruit is home grown so got plenty). After about 9 batches, I have not had any failures and everyone really enjoys it. I did reduce the lemon (since I used fresh frozen lemon juice) to reduce tartness. Seems to be balanced and it ferments pretty quick (about 7-10 days) and clears fast too (you can use Super Kleer instead of Sparkaloid). In about 2 months it is ready to drink... Good luck. As you can see from the thread it is a very popular recipe.


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 30, 2020)

@silverbullet07, I am a grower also so I try to use 100% juice and skip water. I could not do this in a food plant since it is too expensive, ,,,, water always costs out as 0 cents per pound product.
My read on a 4 to 5 pound web recipes is that they are fairly good commercial products. 3 pound recipes are the no name type commercial products.

The transition to high fruit means high solids (fruit acid) which can usually be balanced with finishing sugar, and in your berry ALWAYS can be balanced. the problems occure with extremely high acid as cranberry, rhubarb, lemon juice, currant . . . where it tastes fantastic in small dose, but you can't finish a glass in one sitting. Then the option of removing acid with calcium carbonate (powdered limestone) or potassium carbonate is your fix. ,,,,, or add a moderate acid fruit juice as pear instead of water ,,,, or add lots of water to make a sugar wine.
The science fix is to build a wine based on titratable acidity (TA)


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## KCCam (Aug 31, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> test PH if < 3.6 add some acid blend to raise PH Shoot for 3.6


@silverbullet07, Careful... you have that backwards. Low pH is high acidity, so if pH is *too high, *then add acid to bring it down. And I wouldn't shoot for a number, just a range. I can't remember for sure the ideal range (I don't have a pH meter yet), but I believe it is 3.2 - 3.8 or so. If the pH is *too low*, then it is too acidic and you need to bring it up with calcium/potassium carbonate. I've also read potassium bicarbonate for raising pH, but I'm not sure of the pros/cons of the 3 different ones. Before trying to raise the pH do some research: it's trickier than lowering pH.


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## Scooter68 (Aug 31, 2020)

Everything I've seen, read, and researched out on pH - For Non-Grape wines Starting pH should be no higher than 3.6 (At risk of spoilage) and from experiences and personal anecdotes anything below about 3.25 can become problematic for fermentation (Yeasts may not tolerate too much acidity. After fermentation is over AND CO2 is gone, I've even seen bottled commercial wine with a pH of 3.18 so, if you like it and it's not prone to spoilage, it good to go.

AND one last note. Raising the pH (lowering acidity) IS indeed tricker thatn adding acid. IF you must do that go very slowly. I've over shot the goal twice and it's time consuming to do it right so if it's in the ballpark I'd leave it alone.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 31, 2020)

approximately how much volume do I need in the primary to get a full 3 gal carboy of wine? 3.5 - 4 gal?


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## Rice_Guy (Aug 31, 2020)

I budget a minimum of half a gallon, typically will recover a little after siphoning by settling the lees in a tall cylinder or spaghetti jar


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 31, 2020)

Thank You. The process is beginning. 

I have my 16 lbs of Blackberries and 1.5 gal of sugar water thawing in a 2gal bucket which almost did not fit. After they thaw, I will start smashing them and add the pectic enzyme and pour into the 6.5 Gal fermenter bucket into a mesh bag and add 3 campden tabs. 

I'll get a OG reading, then add Sugar water as needed to get it up to 1.085-1.090 and take a PH reading. 

I'll wait 24 hours before pitching yeast after adding the Campden.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 31, 2020)

Question

I added the blackberries into the primary bucket. After mashing them and squeezing the mesh bag trying to get most liquid out, my juice is about 2.5 -3 gal. This is the fruit juice, 1.5 gal water and 4 lbs sugar.

I am thinking if I pull the mesh bag out, I need at lest 3.5 - 4gal juice.

right now The juice is at 38 degrees. so I am letting it sit right now until tomorrow to let it warm up. Should I add the Camden now or the pectic enzyme now or wait until it warms up?

once warmed, I will check OG and depending where it is, add some more sugar water or plain water to get to 3.5 -4 gal juice.


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## KCCam (Aug 31, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> right now The juice is at 38 degrees.


The recipe said to boil 1.5 gallons of water (for 3 gallon batch) with 6 lbs of sugar and to pour the hot syrup over your berries. And your must temp is only 38°? 

I would add the pectic enzyme now, get it working on your berries right away. Campden needs to be added at least 24 hours before you pitch the yeast. I don’t think there’s any reason not to add it now.


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## silverbullet07 (Aug 31, 2020)

KCCam said:


> The recipe said to boil 1.5 gallons of water (for 3 gallon batch) with 6 lbs of sugar and to pour the hot syrup over your berries. And your must temp is only 38°?
> 
> I would add the pectic enzyme now, get it working on your berries right away. Campden needs to be added at least 24 hours before you pitch the yeast. I don’t think there’s any reason not to add it now.


I did not want to boil the sugar water. So I heated it until the sugar dissolved. I then poured over the frozen berries. 5 hours later the berries are thawed but the juice is still 38f. It is now up to 48f.


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## hounddawg (Aug 31, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> I did not want to boil the sugar water. So I heated it until the sugar dissolved. I then poured over the frozen berries. 5 hours later the berries are thawed but the juice is still 38f. It is now up to 48f.


i'm lazy? stubborn? head headed?
but every wine i make mostly fruits and berries, but in bad years, when i use reduced concentrates , i always add extra must, then come time to rack to secondary, i have extra wine, of which i rack into clear wine bottles, 38-400 thread pint, quart, half gallon , gallon jugs, finger hole half and gallon jugs are 38-400 thread, that way all use a 6.5 drilled bung, so at every racking when you lose that little bit you top off using exactly what your making, now you can get clear jugs with just about any thread and get drilled bungs to fit any particular jug/carboy,,, but i like mine to match, so i can mainly, keep 2 types of bungs drilled 6.5 and small universal drilled bungs, the universal fits my italian glass carboys from 3 gallon to 6.5 gallon, plus that small universel drilled bungs turned upside down, will then fit a wine bottle to airlock, don't get me wrong ,, i've got around a 150 or better drilled bungs to even fit plastic carboys, i forget size 12/14 been so long since i used a plastic carboy, and the work great, but i prefer glass and stainless on everything, now all my ferment barrels are food grade plastic because a 55 gal stainless is close to $500 to my door, i live very rural, so no wine shops, not even yeast, hehe, any way i believe in making extra to top off with, MAN I SURE HOPE NOBODY KNOWS I'VE BEEN DRINKING SKEETER PEE PORT, jeeze, sorry
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 1, 2020)

I added another gal of hot sugar water with 5lbs of sugar. Got the temps up to 91-92F and pitched the Pectic Enzyme. 

The OG is 1.088 @ 91F corrected to 1.092

PH is 3.13 and my TA is 5.5

For Blackberry wine should I make any adjustments to the PH or TA?

For the 16 lbs of blackberries, I have added a total of 2.5 gal of water. I could add another .5 gal of water and see if that helps?


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 2, 2020)

I should be pitching yeast soon. I have my PH @ 3.5 and TA 5.57. Seems things are looking good to get the yeast ready. Temperatures in my cellar are 68F. 

I have 71B Lalvin, EC-1118 and red star Montrachet. Seems census is to use 71B. Any thoughts?


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## Johnd (Sep 2, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> I should be pitching yeast soon. I have my PH @ 3.5 and TA 5.57. Seems things are looking good to get the yeast ready. Temperatures in my cellar are 68F.
> 
> I have 71B Lalvin, EC-1118 and red star Montrachet. Seems census is to use 71B. Any thoughts?


With your pH at 3.5, I'm not so sure that you want to start gobbling up acid with 71B and potentially raising the pH higher. If may end up having to lower it later as a result.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 2, 2020)

Johnd said:


> With your pH at 3.5, I'm not so sure that you want to start gobbling up acid with 71B and potentially raising the pH higher. If may end up having to lower it later as a result.


I was thinking the same thing. Would you recommend the ec-1118 then?


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## Johnd (Sep 2, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Would you recommend the ec-1118 then?



It's a good option, particularly since you have it on hand, and it's a strong yeast. I've only done blackberry once, and it was from a mix of concentrate and picked berries, I used K1-V1116, which is a good yeast for fruits, you can consider that one. Also, any of the yeasts that we use for red wines would be a decent choice, D254, BM4x4, D80. Last, and not least, is the Red Star Montrachet you have on hand, good for reds, also a strong fermenter, a very good candidate. If you're going to use what you have on hand, the Montrachet would be my choice..........FWIW.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 2, 2020)

thanks. I will use the Montrachet then. my recipe calls for 1 tsp per gallon of yeast nutrient. I have 4.5 gal of juice. Should I put all 4 tsp in now or should I feed some now and some later?

edit. My packet says yeast energizer and only calls for 1/2 tsp/gal. Should I just follow it?


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## Johnd (Sep 2, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> thanks. I will use the Montrachet then. my recipe calls for 1 tsp per gallon of yeast nutrient. I have 4.5 gal of juice. Should I put all 4 tsp in now or should I feed some now and some later?
> 
> edit. My packet says yeast energizer and only calls for 1/2 tsp/gal. Should I just follow it?



Split them in half and do two doses. Add the first half dose when your SG gets down to 1.065, second half when it gets down to 1.035.


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## hounddawg (Sep 2, 2020)

i'd go for first choice with K1V-1116 or 2nd EC-1118 as a second choice,
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 3, 2020)

Pitched the yeast in yesterday evening and 13 hours later it seems to be feeding.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 3, 2020)

Wow 22 hours and big cap now. 

I stirred it good and Squeezed the Mesh bag of pulp good too. How often should I squeeze the mesh bag?


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## Scooter68 (Sep 3, 2020)

First couple of days once or twice a day, after that the berries should be pretty well broken down. If you have a long handled potato masher that will help.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 3, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> First couple of days once or twice a day, after that the berries should be pretty well broken down. If you have a long handled potato masher that will help.


Thanks. I Have been pulling the mesh bag up and rolling it up as I left it out. Then squeeze and mash With all I have. The size in the bag has really reduced. not much left in it.


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## David Violante (Sep 3, 2020)

Nice... that looks great!


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## Scooter68 (Sep 3, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Thanks. I Have been pulling the mesh bag up and rolling it up as I left it out. Then squeeze and mash With all I have. The size in the bag has really reduced. not much left in it.


 That would be correct, Blackberries break down to practically nothing in fact the a lot of the bits an pieces left are so small most fermentation bags won't call a lot of it. It will settle out though after fermentation ends.


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## David Violante (Sep 5, 2020)

How’s your SG looking?


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 5, 2020)

This evening it is still bubbling away. It is down to 1.030 now from 1.090


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 6, 2020)

this morning SG is 1.022
couple questions.
do I keep stirring the must everyday until the fermation stops? should I be scraping the bottom as I stir?

After fermation stops, should I wait A few days with out stirring before racking to carboy to get some of the Particles to drop to bottom So it does not get transferred to the carboy? With each racking I know you want to leave the bottom stuff. With me stirring i was afraid it is not dropping much.

also I added 2 tsp of yeast energizer before pitching yeast. Seems like I may have did a little after SG drops and the a little as it dropped more. Should I add any after it drops below 1.010 or would adding more not be good?


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## David Violante (Sep 6, 2020)

I believe the answer is that this is both the science and the art of how you make your wine, and experience will guide you with help from the folks here.

I’ve seen people use bentonite a few days in from the start of fermentation to help drop out the lees and particles, especially with BlackBerry wine. I imagine stirring / punching down the cap is necessary to ensure that it doesn’t dry out, mixes all the ingredients, allows for gas escape and exchange, etc... There are a few ways to make wine, on and off the lees, but I believe you want to get it off the gross lees after about 5 days or so. I will defer to Dawg and others here who have far more experience with non-grape fruit wines. @vernsgal did a fantastic posting of her experience making BlackBerry wine, where she explains a lot of this. Your must will continue to ferment even after you rack it off the gross lees.

I don’t know the answer about adding more energizer now, I would love to hear that as well. My understanding is to add half up front and half around 1.030 I believe.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 6, 2020)

You might try add a little more nutrient now. Not more than 1/3 dose - Montrachet can get stressed with too much or too little nutrient so go easy. As the wine gets closer to finishing I would stop with vigorous stirring. Let things begin to settle. Perhaps 1 good stir after you add nutrient then just check the SG. If it stalls out above an SG of 1.010, you might try EC-1118 or K1-V1116. If it stalls below 1.000 call it done.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 6, 2020)

Would you pull the mesh bag out before the formation is over at some point?


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 6, 2020)

SG down to 1.020. Gave it 3/4 tsp yeast energizer.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 6, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Would you pull the mesh bag out before the formation is over at some point?



No, leave the bag in until ferment is finished. Pull it out gently and let it drain.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 7, 2020)

Scooter68 said:


> No, leave the bag in until ferment is finished. Pull it out gently and let it drain.


pull it out gentle and let drain? I been rolling it up and squeezing it every day. On the last day I have to be gentle?

SG is 1.010 this morning.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 7, 2020)

Gentle in pulling it out, try not to stir up the sediment. You want to let whats on the bottom stay on the bottom. If there is enough left in the bag your might wring the bag out over a different bucket then put that juice in a container and place in a fridge to settle faster. (Speaking of when ferment is done and you rack into a carboy. ) Once that ferment is over you want to bring a little residue into the carboy as possible.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 8, 2020)

Starting day 6 and SG was down to 1.000 this morning. It is still bubbling. I went ahead and pulled the Mesh bag and will let it sit undisturbed for a day or two to let sediment settle some before transferring to glass carboy and jugs.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 8, 2020)

That should work. You can even leave it the bucket until fermentation is finished, just don't let it sit in there very long. Now that it's below 1.000 you could snap a lid on and an airlock. From the rate the SG is dropping it should finish in the next 2-3 days if the temps don't change on you.

Sounds like a good ferment all in all. Time to plan the next batch.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 8, 2020)

Sounds like a good plan, to snap a lid and airlock on. Just let it sit for a couple days. It is still creating a lot of stuff on top. Do I want that stuff to fall down before raking it or does it stop creating it when finished fermenting?

I am going to work on my pear wine now. I have 32 pounds cored, chopped and frozen. Just sit them out to start thawing. I have another thread with it started.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 8, 2020)

Rack based on the SG. You are at the point where an SG that doesn't change for 3 days or hit .990 is finished. Don't wait for stuff to settle, more bad than good can happen at that point.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 8, 2020)

Thanks. I placed the lid and air lock on this afternoon. It is blowing a bubble every 2-3 seconds as of now. It has been dropping every time i check it. Last check was 1.000. I will check the SG again thursday (7 days Since pitching yeast) and see if it hit that .990.


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## KCCam (Sep 8, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> Thanks. I placed the lid and air lock on this afternoon. It is blowing a bubble every 2-3 seconds as of now. It has been dropping every time i check it. Last check was 1.000. I will check the SG again thursday (7 days Since pitching yeast) and see if it hit that .990.


It may not hit 0.990. You are now waiting for it to be the same reading 3 days in a row. 
And the air lock bubbling is not an indication of fermentation. It can bubble for a long time after fermentation is complete as CO2 comes out of solution (degassing).


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 8, 2020)

After reading that I should rack to secondary with in 5-7 days, I went ahead and raked it. This stuff is still really thick. Reminds me of a smoothie. It it normal for blackberry be so thick coming off of primary?


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## KCCam (Sep 9, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> After reading that I should rack to secondary with in 5-7 days, I went ahead and raked it.


Whenever you read about time in wine-making, it’s to give you an idea what to expect. Every wine is different. Even with the same ingredients, every batch can be different. The SG is the ultimate indication of how your fermentation is doing. 1.000 is a very common point to rack to secondary, as oxygen is becoming your enemy instead of your friend, regardless of whether it takes 3 days or 3 weeks to get there. Fruit wine generally has a lot of lees, and many people leave it in the primary until fermentation is complete. Racking to secondary then leaves more gross lees behind. But many do exactly as you have to give oxygen less chance to get to the wine. I would check the SG every day now, and when you get the same reading 3 days in a row, rack it again to a clean carboy, or if you only have the one, then to the primary, and back to the carboy after cleaning it. 



silverbullet07 said:


> It it normal for blackberry be so thick coming off of primary?


I’ve only done kit wines and Dragon Blood myself, but your pictures look fine. An active fermentation and CO2 coming out of solution tend to keep everything suspended. As the fermentation slows down and the wine begins to degas, the sediment will start to drop and the wine will start to clear. 

Since your wine is still giving off a fair bit of CO2, the large headspace you have is probably OK, but if it were mine, I would top up the 2 larger vessels to get the wine up a little closer to the neck. 

Lookin’ good. Good luck.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 9, 2020)

Thanks. I had put my lid and airlock on and had planned to let it sit in it until it was finished. But then started reading about this 5-7 day rule where you should not leave the wine on the lees longer. So I started worrying. Thought it would be best to rack it. most of the stuff was floating it seemed not much on bottom. 

When I racked it over, I had filled it up more at the beginning and it made me a little nervous the way it was bubbling and i racked a little off. I plan to rack it again when it completely finishes and some of the thick Lees settling some. Today I can see where the lees seem to be dropping.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 9, 2020)

As long as your airlock is bubbling at least once a minute I think the headspace is not a problem. You have plenty of CO2 keeping Oxygen infiltration from happening. IF you top up and the ferment decides to get active even for an hour you could wind up with a foam fountain so as long as it's bubbling let it be. 
Biggest issue now is taking an SG reading. Drawing out a sample is going to be a bit messy and cleaning a wine thief of that sediment is not a lot of fun. 
Just a future note, Disregard *ANY *recipe timelines about fermentation duration. EVERY batch is different even if you make two batches from one bucket of juice or juice concentrate, the smallest details can change the rate of ferment. That's probably one of first and most common mistakes when starting out, so you just chalk that up to lessons learned. 
Normally when I rack my fruit wines are a lot less loaded with lees but as long as things start settling AFTER fermentation is finished there's no problem, you just get to have more fun cleaning carboys. Once the bubbling slows to less than one 'burp' a minute I bet you will see clearing happening pretty quickly.
Hardest thing for me to learn with this hobby is the "P" word.** * That's why it's in my signature line. Patience will put you miles ahead and save a lot of work So hang in there, You've made wine now the waiting game starts.

*** Patience


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 9, 2020)

@Scooter68 thanks for all the details and help. I guess I should have left it in primary for a little while longer. The nasty lees are starting to pile up today. It will be a mess to clean for sure. Something to see in the bottom. Is that parts of the blackberries and the yeast? Nasty looking. Will that keep compacting down? The one qt jug is about half full.


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## mikewatkins727 (Sep 10, 2020)

Though cleanup can be a bit messy, it's not all that bad. Just don't let it set very long.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 10, 2020)

Yes, some compacting will continue, how much is hard to say. I would just be sure that fermentation has stopped completely before you rack again. The "Three days - no SG Change Rule" applies. When that occurs OR the SG hits .990 rack again. Usually you will have to rack at least one more time after that next racking to get rid of 90+ % of the lees. It is not unusual to see noticeable lees for 6-9 months into aging. After that point what you will probably see is just a dusting of lees on the bottom of the carboy when you rack. 
Just remember the next racking - when fermentation is over - is when you need to be very careful to leave as much of the lees behind as possible. Even if that means 1/4 to 3/4 inch of clear looking wine is left in the carboy. You can always take that out knowing you will suck up some lees and put it into one of your extra carboys you have there. Then put that into the fridge to settle it faster and get back more of the wine. The cold helps drop out the sediment quicker. If your big carboy isn't topped off before you get that leftover wine separated out in the fridge don't worry about that if you get if topped off in no more than a couple of days. Just remember CO2 gassing off will continue after fermentation ends and the evidence is usually _very fin__e_ streams of bubbles coming up from the bottom of the carboy.

As I said this is a long learning process and what works one time might not work the next time you find different ways to get to the desired end result. From the looks of those carboys things are settling down pretty quickly now.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 10, 2020)

I checked SG and it hit .990. I will rack it off the lees tomorrow. Let it settle a little more overnight.

My thoughts on the taste of the wine, it is dry and little sour. You can really smell the alcohol. You can get a hint of blackberry. The abv is 13%. But it is drinkable.

I don’t think I add Camden tabs this next racking do I? I think I wait until it is clear and right before bottling?


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## Scooter68 (Sep 10, 2020)

Campden tablets (AKA K-Meta) should be added as soon as fermentation ends. So when you rack tomorrow add the crushed tablets. *OR* if you have the powdered form (K-Meta) add one fourth (1/4) teaspoon per five/six gallons. I make 3 gallon batches so I add 1/8th teaspoon at the end of fermentation. I'm lazy and just put the powder into the empty carboy and let the swirling of the racking mix it up.*** I do NOT add Potassium Sorbate until just before I back-sweeten and bottle. Sorbate has a limited shelf life and is said to be capable of giving off flavors to a wine as it gets along in age (How long??? I don't have any numbers) So I would suggest just hit the batch with the K-meta at this first post-ferment racking and then again every 3 months until you finish aging the wine. If you rack and then one month later decide to bottle at that time. Some folks would say no need to add more K-meta but if you wait past 1.5 months dose the wine again before bottling. 

*** I would not suggest doing that with crushed campden tablets as they don't dissolve as well. For them (in my 1 gallon batches) I crush them then disolve them in an ounce or two of warm water and put that into the clean carboy before I rack


*AND CONGRATS on reaching the end of fermentation. Now the waiting begins.*


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 12, 2020)

I was able to rack a full 3 gal carboy. I used 3 campden tabs. 

I have a pint that I stuck in the fridge to use as top up. Thanks for everyone’s help. 

so it will sit in this carboy about 3 months before racking again?


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## KCCam (Sep 12, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> View attachment 65882


You might find an increase in temperature could push wine into your air lock. 5°F will raise it about 1/2”.



silverbullet07 said:


> My thoughts on the taste of the wine, it is dry and little sour. You can really smell the alcohol. You can get a hint of blackberry. The abv is 13%. But it is drinkable.


Try a little sugar in it. A small amount can make a big difference in bringing the fruit forward. Sugar will also reduce the effect of the sourness. Of course time can definitely improve it as well. 



silverbullet07 said:


> so it will sit in this carboy about 3 months before racking again?


Sounds good.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 12, 2020)

Thanks. I will keep an eye on it. My temps never get above 70f were it is. It should lower in the next month. It stays pr constant.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 12, 2020)

Even with fairly constant temps, I'd consider lowering that level to about the botton of the "Ring" to give yourself a little safety margin. I know it's not much difference but sometimes that little bit save a lot of cleaning up and drawing in fruit flies.
(Oh and it looks very good.)


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 12, 2020)

I can do that. Thanks!


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 13, 2020)

I lowered the volume a little in the carboy. I have this almost full pint mason jar left. Does this have to much air space? I may need to find a smaller jar. I wanted to use it as a top up later when racking.


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## sour_grapes (Sep 13, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> I lowered the volume a little in the carboy. I have this almost full pint mason jar left. Does this have to much air space? I may need to find a smaller jar. I wanted to use it as a top up later when racking.
> 
> View attachment 65913
> 
> View attachment 65914



One solution to your problem that I have used is to _freeze_ the small jar until you need it later. Obviously, it won't settle and age the same, but it won't oxidize, either!


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 13, 2020)

Is this still to much head room? Also, can I cap this off or does it need a airlock? SG is .990 So fermentation should be done.


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## Scooter68 (Sep 13, 2020)

If that's in a fridge you can do away with the airlock (Use a sealing cap) and it should be as safe from oxidation as your you room temp wine in the carboy.


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## silverbullet07 (Sep 14, 2020)

@Scooter68 

Will I just leave this racking alone until 3 months out or if there is a inch or so of sediments before racking again to another carboy?


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## hounddawg (Sep 14, 2020)

silverbullet07 said:


> @Scooter68
> 
> Will I just leave this racking alone until 3 months out or if there is a inch or so of sediments before racking again to another carboy?


back a few years ago i spent 11 months in SICU & ICU , then it was another year before i got to where i could go home, during that 2 years my nephew kept my airlocks full, so i had all from scratch strawberry, blackberry and a apple/pear/crab apple,, all sitting on gross lees, not something to be recommended, but all three were still good,
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Sep 15, 2020)

If you have an measureable amount of lees 1/8" or more in the next couple of weeks, I would rack it to a fresh carboy. Don't need to add more K-meta but rack it off the lees. Get the hard parts done now and then you can sit back and plot & plan more batches.


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## opus345 (Sep 27, 2020)

Love homewinery.com concentrates. I use 1 1/2 Gallon concentrae and 12 lbs of frozen blackberries. I may try Dawg's guidance of upping the concentrate on my next batch. I also spike my 6 gal batches with 2 750 ml Blackberry Brandy. Yum. My Blackberry hooch receives rave reviews.


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## hounddawg (Sep 27, 2020)

opus345 said:


> Love homewinery.com concentrates. I use 1 1/2 Gallon concentrae and 12 lbs of frozen blackberries. I may try Dawg's guidance of upping the concentrate on my next batch. I also spike my 6 gal batches with 2 750 ml Blackberry Brandy. Yum. My Blackberry hooch receives rave reviews.


yep my trouble keeping it,, lol
Dawg


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## Snafflebit (Jan 9, 2021)

This is a very useful thread for me! I am looking at Vintner's Harvest blackberry fruit wine base. The label mentions "some wines benefit from the addition of natural fruit flavor which enhances both flavor and boquet"

Do you think this is necessary to add flavor at bottling blackberry wine?


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## hounddawg (Jan 9, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> This is a very useful thread for me! I am looking at Vintner's Harvest blackberry fruit wine base. The label mentions "some wines benefit from the addition of natural fruit flavor which enhances both flavor and boquet"
> 
> Do you think this is necessary to add flavor at bottling blackberry wine?


on blackberry wine, no,, just use 6 lbs per gal, and at bottling time sugar to bring out your flavor, fruit and berry wines use sugar to bring out it's flavor, since we turn its natural flavors by turning it's sugars into alcohol. i add sugar to get my flavors back, i never add flavor to any country wine, i just double or triple my fruit/berry pounds per gallon, i run my wines much hotter than most but you cant tell well til you trip over your own feet anyway, 
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (Jan 10, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> This is a very useful thread for me! I am looking at Vintner's Harvest blackberry fruit wine base. The label mentions "some wines benefit from the addition of natural fruit flavor which enhances both flavor and boquet"
> 
> Do you think this is necessary to add flavor at bottling blackberry wine?


For the Vintner's Harvest - Just be sure to follow the *Correction*   3 GALLON recipe (there is no 4 gallon recipe) on the label NOT the 5 gallon. That should give you a solid wine.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> This is a very useful thread for me! I am looking at Vintner's Harvest blackberry fruit wine base. The label mentions "some wines benefit from the addition of natural fruit flavor which enhances both flavor and boquet"
> 
> Do you think this is necessary to add flavor at bottling blackberry wine?


try www.colomafrozen.com 
single fruit make as strong as you please.
Dawg


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## Snafflebit (Jan 10, 2021)

I bought two cans of the Vintner's Harvest. My plan is to use both cans to make two of the 3-gallon recipes, but reduce the water to 5 gallons instead of 6 gallons. I'm not sure that I have a 6 gallon carboy around here. I think that since I will be racking off some lees, I will need to add some water to top off. The recipe does not indicate potential alcohol. Any suggestions on how hot to make this? The recipe calls for 7 lbs sugar in 3 gallons which in pure water makes 12% ABV


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## Scooter68 (Jan 10, 2021)

What sort of wine do you want to make OR do you want to make two different types? 2 x three gallon batches from 2 cans should be fine. My experience has been that their juices are perfect for solid flavor at 3 gallons/can. In any case Blackberry would make a great dessert wine (High ABV and Sweet with full flavor. It can also make a lower ABV wine as well. I'd go for somewhere between 14.5%-15.% for a dessert wine and then after fermentation back-sweeten it well. For just a good fruit wine you can shoot at an ABV of 11%-12.5 percent and then just back-sweeten enough to pull up the flavor a bit more. All fruit wines seem to need a little sweetening to bring the flavor up but in the end... it's a personal choice. I only use 3 gallon carboys so My intent is to make 2 x three gallon batches (From 2 cans with one or both being dessert wines. Same thing with my Black Currant that I also ordered. Black Currant if very tart so it also makes into a better dessert wine - for me. 

ALSO remember to check your SG as you go. Don't just dump in a given amount like 7 lbs. Start with a solid amount and then check it as you go. I've usually used a simple syrup to add in the sugar with the VH wine bases. That way the SG is accurate with no chance of undissolved sugar changing things. I also prefer to go for the right SG on day one, wait overnight and check it again the next day to see if it stayed there or rises a little. Same with the pH. Just easier to do that than to finding out later that things changed and you didn't realize it. (Some folks who stir the sugar in and don't get it completely dissolved - they may actually see the SG rise after the ferment starts because they 1) Didn't dissolve all the sugar properly and 2) As that sugar dissolves it raises the SG a little faster than the ferment takes it down.) Not a common thing but it can happen if you get in hurry to pitch that yeast. Waiting overnight after you think things are on target is a good idea. Of course te be safe start out by adding K-Meta /Campden tabs crushed as soon as you add the wine base to the bucket. That buys you a day of safe waiting before pitching the yeast.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> I bought two cans of the Vintner's Harvest. My plan is to use both cans to make two of the 3-gallon recipes, but reduce the water to 5 gallons instead of 6 gallons. I'm not sure that I have a 6 gallon carboy around here. I think that since I will be racking off some lees, I will need to add some water to top off. The recipe does not indicate potential alcohol. Any suggestions on how hot to make this? The recipe calls for 7 lbs sugar in 3 gallons which in pure water makes 12% ABV


i agree with @Scooter68 , long ago i tried Vintners Harvest ,, 2 cans will be fine for 6 gallons, and 2 cans added to five gallons will give you a little for topping off,, yup if it was me i'd go with 5 gallon add both cans then come secondary fil 5 gal carboy and put the rest in smaller jugs for topping off, if you have small universal bungs you can turn them upside down and use wine bottles to air lock the extra top off wine,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> I bought two cans of the Vintner's Harvest. My plan is to use both cans to make two of the 3-gallon recipes, but reduce the water to 5 gallons instead of 6 gallons. I'm not sure that I have a 6 gallon carboy around here. I think that since I will be racking off some lees, I will need to add some water to top off. The recipe does not indicate potential alcohol. Any suggestions on how hot to make this? The recipe calls for 7 lbs sugar in 3 gallons which in pure water makes 12% ABV


do you ferment in a carboy or open top container?
Dawg


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## Snafflebit (Jan 10, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> if you have small universal bungs you can turn them upside down and use wine bottles to air lock the extra top off wine,
> Dawg



I'll be danged if that does not work perfectly. I had to go out the garage and test it. I have a few small corks I use with airlocks in wine bottles, but every bottle has a slightly different sized opening. As my grandpa used to say "smart as a hog" which was high praise from him


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

blackberry i love,,,, but this year i made 20 gallons , 18 finished to bottle from half blackberries and half elderberries, now i half to make both, I'm getting way to many favorites  lol
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

my key touching is bad today, been having to re-read every thing before posting, and wont even take a drink till at least 8m 
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

grrrr fudge


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## Snafflebit (Jan 10, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> do you ferment in a carboy or open top container?
> Dawg


I plan to ferment in buckets, like grape must. 
What are some thoughts on adding bentonite to the batch pre-ferment?


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## Scooter68 (Jan 10, 2021)

I've never done that and with the berry wines, I've never seemed to need to. Not that you shouldn't I normally use bentonite after fermentation on hard to clear wines particulary the lighter ones like Apple, Peach, Pineapple/Mango, they seem be harder to clear. Maybe I should be using it on them during ferment. I'd say go with that if that seems better to you. Have you used bentonite before? It's a mess to get dissolved. For me I try to prep it the day before I use it and keep in in the fridge over night. (Doing the slow addition to hot water, then shaking/stirring the daylights out of it. Let it set over night (No reason it needs to be in the fridge really) Just read the amount needed carefully I went with too little water and that was really ugly.


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## cmason1957 (Jan 10, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> I plan to ferment in buckets, like grape must.
> What are some thoughts on adding bentonite to the batch pre-ferment?



I add some bentonite to nearly all ferments that I do at the start. I think it helps the clearing later on, but have no hard evidence to prove that. I do it, due to the person I learned winemaking from doing it and starting with kit wines, which always have you do it. I seldom have issues with it dissolving, I start with rather hot water, about 1/2 gallon or a gallon, add that, sprinkle the bentonite all over the water, then stir it like I am really mad at it, very fast and hard (maybe the term is whip it like a rented mule??).


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## Scooter68 (Jan 10, 2021)

Think you have an answer there cmason1957 I am normally just using the minimum amount of water doing it post ferment. Guess you've pushed me to try a new approach.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

Snafflebit said:


> I plan to ferment in buckets, like grape must.
> What are some thoughts on adding bentonite to the batch pre-ferment?


I've never used bentonite, I've heard of it, i use time to degas and to clear my wines, i do have some Dura Fine, but use it very rarely, I keep as chemicals, yeast (EC-1118) (K1V-1116),,,, Potassium Sorbate,,, Potassium Metabisulfite (K-Meta),,, Pectic Enzyme,,, Yeast Nutrient,,, Yeast Energizer,,, Triple Acid blend,,,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I add some bentonite to nearly all ferments that I do at the start. I think it helps the clearing later on, but have no hard evidence to prove that. I do it, due to the person I learned winemaking from doing it and starting with kit wines, which always have you do it. I seldom have issues with it dissolving, I start with rather hot water, about 1/2 gallon or a gallon, add that, sprinkle the bentonite all over the water, then stir it like I am really mad at it, very fast and hard (maybe the term is whip it like a rented mule??).


UM you are talking wine right????????  u'er sic,,,, lol,,, shame shame,,, BahWaaa
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I add some bentonite to nearly all ferments that I do at the start. I think it helps the clearing later on, but have no hard evidence to prove that. I do it, due to the person I learned winemaking from doing it and starting with kit wines, which always have you do it. I seldom have issues with it dissolving, I start with rather hot water, about 1/2 gallon or a gallon, add that, sprinkle the bentonite all over the water, then stir it like I am really mad at it, very fast and hard (maybe the term is whip it like a rented mule??).


 

Easy, no mule beatings please, jezze, and i thought you was a calm minded person, and YEP, beat like a rented mule is the phrase, lol

Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Jan 18, 2021)

So my blackberry wine was started 8-31-2020
18# blackberries for 3 gal

The wine finished dry It is tart too. For my taste, I like a much stronger fruit flavor. So I added 1 qt of blackberry concentrate. The black berry flavor is much better but still very tart. I back sweeten with a double simple sugar to about 1.032. It it much better now and now we wait for a little while before bottling.


PS I did add k-meta and sorbate when I racked 24 hours earlier.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 18, 2021)

Back - sweeten to taste NOT to an SG number. Every variety is different and even different batches will turn out differently. I ALWAYS sweet to taste then the SG is just - Hmmm so what did this turn out to be?


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## silverbullet07 (Jan 18, 2021)

Yes I did to taste and that is were it fell. We created several samples with different levels of sugar and this is what we liked the best.


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## hounddawg (Jan 18, 2021)

Yup , I'm with @Scooter68 ,, taste at all levels and come bottling time sweeten to taste, then take a SG reading just to give you a ball park target, but on country wines it takes a little sweet to bring flavor, then by taste dial in to taste,,,, personally , I'll bring in just under my taste profile, reason being is after aging for a year, everything comes to gather , and the sweetness will be enhanced,
Dawg


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## hounddawg (Jan 18, 2021)

silverbullet07 said:


> Yes I did to taste and that is were it fell. We created several samples with different levels of sugar and this is what we liked the best.


Hey @silverbullet07, just for schists & grins, what is your preferred taste profile on your FG, i tend to go mainly with a FG of 1.040 and 1.030 depending on the fruit or berry...
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (Jan 19, 2021)

So far I have only did bench trial for blueberry and blackberry. the trials we preferred for blueberry it ended up at 1.020 and the blackberry was more tart so we needed it sweeter and it ended up at 1.030.
I will be doing bench trial for our pear tonight. It’ll see were it ends.

on our grape wines we like it dry. But so far the fruit wines needed to back sweeten because they lack something. both have been bland or weak in fruit flavor for my liking. The blackberry was also real tart. 

Adding the concentrate to backsweaten has help with the blandness and brought back bold fruit flavor which I like. The blueberry, I only added the concentrate and the sugar content it had was enough. The blackberry we added the concentrate but it also needed sugar to cut the tartness.

I kept in mind that it may sweeten up some with age hoping not to make it too sweet.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 19, 2021)

How many pounds of fruit per gallon did you use for your fruit wines?


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## silverbullet07 (Jan 19, 2021)

I did 18# for the 3 gal finished. I probable had 4 gals in the original fermentation. The wine was pretty light colored. With a bright light you could see through it.


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## Scooter68 (Jan 19, 2021)

Next time push up the lbs/ gallon then. I normally use between 6-7 lbs per gallon but I'm using wild blackberries and home grown blueberries not store bought.


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## RickD (Jan 23, 2021)

silverbullet07 said:


> @Scooter68 thanks for all the details and help. I guess I should have left it in primary for a little while longer. The nasty lees are starting to pile up today. It will be a mess to clean for sure. Something to see in the bottom. Is that parts of the blackberries and the yeast? Nasty looking. Will that keep compacting down? The one qt jug is about half full.



Just curious...did you use a mesh bag in primary?


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## silverbullet07 (Jan 23, 2021)

Yes I did. It seemed to catch all the little seeds. it was a real fine mesh.


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## silverbullet07 (Mar 1, 2021)

If I k-meta, sorbate, and back sweeten last month and it still is setting in carboy, can I bottle this month with out adding any additional K-meta?


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## Rembee (Mar 1, 2021)

As long as the SG has not moved in a 2 week period then yes it should be safe to bottle. I like to test my SG once a week for 3 weeks. If it has not moved then I consider it ready for bottling.


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## silverbullet07 (Mar 1, 2021)

Rembee said:


> As long as the SG has not moved in a 2 week period then yes it should be safe to bottle. I like to test my SG 3 once a week for 3 weeks. If it has not moved then I consider it ready for bottling.



Oh this has been in carboy 6 months. So the it is done. I've racked it last month to prepare for bottling. Just wondering if K meta needs added again before bottling if I just added k-meta last moth.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 1, 2021)

My personal opinion, not founded on anything particular, is that you could safely bottle at this one-month delay.


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## Scooter68 (Mar 1, 2021)

What I've seen talked about on here is that if you do you K-meta dosages every 3 months and rack at that time, you would be fine to bottle now. At 6 weeks (`1 1.2 Months) It's a gamble, More than that definitely consider at least a half a normal dosage. 
Of course if you have the ability to measure the SO (2)?) then you don't have to guess, but; then not everyone has that equipment.

So short answer - What sour_grapes said.


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## RickD (Mar 2, 2021)

Blackberry is my first, also. I followed the DangerDan Dragon Blood recipe (process) found here, made a 1.2 gallon batch. Bottled in three weeks two days (back sweetened). I drank one of the 5 bottles on the day I bottled, the other 4 are on the shelf. I take every word regarding the benefits of aging found on these forums as righteous gospel, but I will never experience it first hand if I don't try it.


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## KCCam (Mar 2, 2021)

RickD said:


> I take every word regarding the benefits of aging found on these forums as righteous gospel, but I will never experience it first hand if I don't try it.


 
I think you'll need a lot more than a gallon then, hahaha. Oh, and DB does benefit from aging, but part if its beauty is that you can enjoy it early, as you've seen, within a month of pitching the yeast, so you can let the wine that will *really *benefit age properly.


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## silverbullet07 (Mar 23, 2021)

Blackberry wine is bottled. Got 14 bottles of regular and 1 bottle lightly oak’ed. I like the oak one and my next batch will be all oak. I used Hungarian med toasted.


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## CatsCradle13 (May 20, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> @silverbullet07, I am a grower also so I try to use 100% juice and skip water. I could not do this in a food plant since it is too expensive, ,,,, water always costs out as 0 cents per pound product.
> My read on a 4 to 5 pound web recipes is that they are fairly good commercial products. 3 pound recipes are the no name type commercial products.
> 
> The transition to high fruit means high solids (fruit acid) which can usually be balanced with finishing sugar, and in your berry ALWAYS can be balanced. the problems occure with extremely high acid as cranberry, rhubarb, lemon juice, currant . . . where it tastes fantastic in small dose, but you can't finish a glass in one sitting. Then the option of removing acid with calcium carbonate (powdered limestone) or potassium carbonate is your fix. ,,,,, or add a moderate acid fruit juice as pear instead of water ,,,, or add lots of water to make a sugar wine.
> The science fix is to build a wine based on titratable acidity (TA)


How many pounds of blackberries gets you one gallon of juice? Im looking into no water wines. Any idea about the ratio of other berries pounds to gallons?


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## Fencepost (May 20, 2022)

CatsCradle13 said:


> How many pounds of blackberries gets you one gallon of juice? Im looking into no water wines. Any idea about the ratio of other berries pounds to gallons?


I get about 1.3 cups of juice per pound of blackberries. So 1 gallon = 16 cups, or 12.3 lbs of berries. Different berries yield different amounts of juice, I read it was 1 to 1.3 cups per pound... I have big berries, very juicy.


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## CatsCradle13 (May 20, 2022)

Fencepost said:


> I get about 1.3 cups of juice per pound of blackberries. So 1 gallon = 16 cups, or 12.3 lbs of berries. Different berries yield different amounts of juice, I read it was 1 to 1.3 cups per pound... I have big berries, very juicy.


wow thats a lot of berries!


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## CatsCradle13 (May 20, 2022)

Fencepost said:


> I get about 1.3 cups of juice per pound of blackberries. So 1 gallon = 16 cups, or 12.3 lbs of berries. Different berries yield different amounts of juice, I read it was 1 to 1.3 cups per pound... I have big berries, very juicy.


wow thats a lot of berries! someone told me that they got one gallon of juice from 9-10 pounds of blueberries. I always found that hard to believe your number makes more sense, as blackberries have even more water content than blueberries


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## winemaker81 (May 21, 2022)

CatsCradle13 said:


> wow thats a lot of berries! someone told me that they got one gallon of juice from 9-10 pounds of blueberries. I always found that hard to believe your number makes more sense, as blackberries have even more water content than blueberries


Also keep in mind that you will lose volume to sediment -- it's part of the situation. I'd allow 25% extra to ensure you have sufficient wine to fill the gallon jug. Have small bottles on hand to hold the excess. Given Fencepost's numbers, I'd start with 16 lbs of blackberries.


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