# Malolactic Bacteria



## Jumpdm (Sep 24, 2013)

I've never used maolatic bacteria before and my local shop said to it in before racking? Is that correct?


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## Rogerm (Sep 24, 2013)

I am new at this but I was told you add it during fermentation when the brix are around 14


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## cmason1957 (Sep 24, 2013)

Like many things in winemaking, it can be done many different ways. I have had good luck with waiting until yeast fermentation has completed, racking and getting some of the lees to another carboy, then add the malolactic bacteria and some optimalo, which is like malolactic bacteria nutrient. Then the great wait starts. I don't check for completion, until at least a month after starting and I let it continue for at least a week or two after the tests say it is complete.


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## harmony24 (Sep 24, 2013)

What is the point in the malo fermentation? Does it make your wine that much better? Is it necessary?


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## Pumpkinman (Sep 24, 2013)

Harmony24, there has been extensive debates and discussions on MLF and the benefits.
Here is something that I copied from another post: http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f5/help-me-understand-mlf-40561/

MLF can happen on it's own, most wine makers prefer that it doesn't, if spontaneous MLF happens in bottle, you can end up with a sparkling wine at the very least, and bottles that burst.

Malolactic bacteria converts malic acid, the bitter, green apple tasting acid, into Lactic acid, resulting in a natural softening of the wine creating a much smoother wine with more body and mouthfeel.
It is usually used on reds that you plan on aging for a while (bottled and stored), and on most reds that have a higher acidity to them. 
Grapes produced in cool regions tend to be high in acidity, wines from these grapes will really benefit from MLF, making the wine more palatable, balanced and giving the wine greater roundness.

I don't think that there is an "etched in stone" list of which red wines should be put through MLF, I for one haven't had a red wine that I've put through MLF that I haven't enjoyed yet.

I put all of my reds through MLF, I tend to age my wine, even if you make 100 gallons of wine a yr, that should render approx. 480 bottles of wine (750 ml ), unless you are drinking a bottle a day (not a problem here..lol), your wine is going to be aging in bottle, making the chances of spontaneous MLF and bottle bursting greater. 
Some winemakers feel that when bottled wine goes through spontaneous MLF, "The wine may lose its fruit integrity and take on the unpleasant lactic aroma of cured meats".
Not a characteristic that I'm looking for in a wine.

The biggest issues that I've seen with putting wine through MLF for the first time are:

Wine makers new to MLF tend to purchase inferior MLB, you can get a cheaper MLB, but this is one of those times when the old saying "you only get what you pay for" is true. Why spend as much time and money making wine only to drive yourself nuts by purchasing a cheap MLB.
Another big issue is the fact that wine makers new to MLF think that they will always see a very aggressive MLF with the airlock bubbling feverishly and bubble coming to the top of the carboy as if it were an aquarium, this is hardly the norm for MLF, most times the process is mild, and as with Alcoholic fermentation, airlock activity, or lack of, is not indicative of active or stalled fermentation.
The single biggest and most common issue is time and patience, wine makers new to MLF feel that they should see active fermentation and completion in a matter of a few weeks, although possible, MLF can take several months to complete.

What is the rush? 
If you resign to the fact that you are going to age your wine a yr at the minimum, trying to rush this process seems very silly, don't drive yourself nuts, I've seen more daily MLF updates with the wine maker getting very frustrated that they don't see any activity, or they've waited 2 weeks and it should be done... don't rush it, let it take its course, you'll will be much happier in the long run.

Very few White wines are put through MLF, many whites need that nice crisp acidity to balance the sweetness, we can talk about that if you are interested.


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## berrycrush (Sep 25, 2013)

Are you making from grapes or kit? Grapes contains natural bacteria that does MLF so you may not need to add any. Do a paper Chromatography test just after the primary fermentation to see if there is any trace of Lactic Acid. If it is there then you are set. Just don't add SO2 till MLF finishes


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## Pumpkinman (Sep 25, 2013)

First and foremost, Malolactic Fermentation and Wine Kits shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence...that said..

Although grape skins can host wild MLB, one of the main reasons that wineries and home winemakers alike don't let or wait for the wild MLB to start MLF is that this usually happens after bottled resulting in bursting bottles, not to mention that the wild MLB may be an undesirable strain which can create unwanted and undesirable effects and characteristics. 
In my opinion, I feel that relying on wild MLB is far too risky.

Tom


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## Jumpdm (Sep 25, 2013)

*Still some questions*

All great answers and its helping a lot. TY. I now understand the function of MLB and MLF but I still am a little lost. I bought a kit and then bought 5 gal of fresh juice both from same vineyard that also has a wine store. I bought a "tube" of MLB and was told to add after primary. So I added to carboy when racking. All your advice says to make sure to wait until its finished. How will I know that? A bubble every minute, two minutes..... Then for 5 gal how much PS and how much MBS at stage 3 when I move and degas? Thanks again, I have to get this right otherwise Ill get "I told you so," from the peanut gallery.


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## berrycrush (Sep 25, 2013)

You need buy a kit:
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/media/downloads/421/malolactic_chromatography_kit.pdf
cannot do MLF without it. ( it would be like driving blind-folded )


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## Jumpdm (Sep 25, 2013)

Okay, not to be PIA but I've carefully read your info Pumpkinman, thank you. im glad i used MLB but the one thing I'm missing. Is the key indicator that MLF is going on and/or done. Berrycrush had some great insight, thank you as well, but to be honest it's going over my head with the testing. Is there an indicator such as the bubble in my airlock-timing or hydrmeter measurement? I don't want to botch my virgin wine voyage.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 25, 2013)

Is it possible to get a MLF going after Kmeta has been added?


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## jamesngalveston (Sep 25, 2013)

I may be wrong but If i was going to start a mlf, I would do it with a strong red...like a cabarnet, etc....they can get pretty acidic...and I think a mlf would help alot...
correct me if im wrong pumpkinman.


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## Pumpkinman (Sep 26, 2013)

There are test strips that some use, these are supposed to be less expensive and easier to use, but less accurate (I've never used them, this is just what I've read).
The only other way is time; I haven't had a MLF go on more than 2 -3 months.
I highly recommend testing the wine.

James, Absolutely, Cabernet Sav really benefits from MLF, as do most all reds, I'd rather start MLF than to have it start in the bottles.


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## Bartman (Sep 26, 2013)

I've never done MLF but I do not get any fresh/grapes from cool regions (local Texas grapes, and California red grapes). If anything, my fresh grape wines have been too 'soft' (not harsh or astringent) so I believe MLF would have been unnecessary. Am I misunderstanding the purpose/value of MLF?

In general, though, I have read/been told that MLF frequently happens spontaneously (at least to a limited degree), so this would be another reason to bulk age in an air-locked (not stoppered) carboy for 6 months to 1 year, rather than bottling any sooner, correct?


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## Pumpkinman (Sep 26, 2013)

Bartman,
MLF does more than just soften a wine, but if you are pleased with your wine then I wouldn't change a thing. 
The one thing that I would be apprehensive about is if spontaneous MLF happened in bottled wines, (you are correct that it is better to bulk age, but spontaneous MLF can happen in the carboy as well) not only could it result in bottles bursting and undesirable strains that can cause off flavors and odors.

The following was taken from a report on Malolactic fermentation from Lallemand:


> *To make matters worse, it follows that if a spontaneous, but undesirable, strain of malolactic bacteria
> becomes implanted in the winery, then all subsequent wine made in that facility may be in danger of exhibiting the negative
> characteristics associated with that particular strain of bacteria.*



I hope that this helps,
Tom


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## Wooden (May 4, 2016)

Pumpkinman said:


> * First and foremost, Malolactic Fermentation and Wine Kits shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence...*
> 
> Tom



Sorry to dig up an old thread, but why? 

I am a little confused as to why a kit would make it inherently bad. Some kits have grape skins (that you said can hold malolactic bacteria (or do they just sulfite the heck out of the skins to prevent this!?))

Or is it because most kits on the market come with EC-1118, which I would assume would be incompatible with MLF? 

What if the winemaker, recognizing this, substituted a yeast that was MLF-compatible? 

Or is it that only the kit yeast (like EC-1118 which is incompatible with MLF will ferment the juice properly because the juice in most kits already has too many sulfites? (Just a guess))

*Or is it some other reason?!*! (Please enlighten me, I am a noob just trying to think my way through and understand this as much as possible) 

I will be doing my first kit here soon, and would like to have the option of doing MLF, as my favorite wines are oaky Cabs and Chardonnays, I just don't like a lot of acidic bite in my wines. 

Unfortunately, I live in Northern Minnesota, which is about as far away from any major grape-growing region as you can get! I'm assuming that kits will be my only real option throughout my winemaking career. Would love to make it from real grapes but think I will have to dream on


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## ibglowin (May 4, 2016)

Wooden said:


> (Please enlighten me, I am a noob just trying to think my way through and understand this as much as possible)



Probably the best explanation as to why you should never attempt MLF on a kit wine comes right from Daniel Pambianchi's book Techniques in Home Winemaking.

*Do NOT attempt MLF on kit wines because these types of juices have been tartrate-stabilzed during their production and thus contain a very high proportion of malic acid, which would be converted to lactic acid. The resulting wine would have very little acid (taste flabby), and a high pH making it very susceptible to bacterial infections....*


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## Wooden (May 5, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Probably the best explanation as to why you should never attempt MLF on a kit wine comes right from Daniel Pambianchi's book Techniques in Home Winemaking.
> 
> *Do NOT attempt MLF on kit wines because these types of juices have been tartrate-stabilzed during their production and thus contain a very high proportion of malic acid, which would be converted to lactic acid. The resulting wine would have very little acid (taste flabby), and a high pH making it very susceptible to bacterial infections....*



Word. THAT is the answer I was looking for. Makes total sense to me now. The reasoning satisfies 100% my need for understanding the WHY NOT question. Thank you! 

Now I may ferment this in peace, in according to the instructions (well at least without adding an MLF in there) 

Cheers, 

Wooden.


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## Stevelaz (May 10, 2016)

Is it possible my wine is going through malo on its own? Im doing 18 gallons of Merlot Juice from Chile. Its been 16 days since i started fermentation, all in one big barrel. About day 7 i racked to secondary, one 15 gal demijohn and one 3 gal carboy and topped up. My sp now is at 0991-0992 does not seem to be going any lower. I have slight foaming at top rim of wine and if i take a flashlight i see tiny bubbles running up the side of the glass. Malo or just co2 escaping. Not sure if you can see the bubbles from the pic. Thanks.


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## ibglowin (May 10, 2016)

CO2 escaping still.


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## GreginND (May 10, 2016)

Stevelaz said:


> Is it possible my wine is going through malo on its own? Im doing 18 gallons of Merlot Juice from Chile. Its been 16 days since i started fermentation, all in one big barrel. About day 7 i racked to secondary, one 15 gal demijohn and one 3 gal carboy and topped up. My sp now is at 0991-0992 does not seem to be going any lower. I have slight foaming at top rim of wine and if i take a flashlight i see tiny bubbles running up the side of the glass. Malo or just co2 escaping. Not sure if you can see the bubbles from the pic. Thanks.



It could be just off gassing, but MLF can easily occur spontaneously. I'd keep watching it for a couple of weeks.


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## Stevelaz (May 10, 2016)

Yes, i was thinking off gassing to. If that is what it is how long will that go on for? I do not remember my wine doing that last year...


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## ibglowin (May 10, 2016)

I have seen that going on for weeks. It could still be finishing out a little AF as well. Degassing happens faster at warmer temps.


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## cmason1957 (May 10, 2016)

I doubt it is malolactic. Many people report that merlot, for some reason, can be really hard to get malolactic fermentation going.


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## BlueStimulator (May 11, 2016)

Great post thanks for everyone's questions and input. I continue to learn from all of your curiosity and wisdom.


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## Stevelaz (May 11, 2016)

_doubt it is malolactic. Many people report that merlot, for some reason, can be really hard to get malolactic fermentation going._
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Do you know why? Maybe Merlot really doesn't need malo then?


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## cmason1957 (May 12, 2016)

Stevelaz said:


> _doubt it is malolactic. Many people report that merlot, for some reason, can be really hard to get malolactic fermentation going._
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Do you know why? Maybe Merlot really doesn't need malo then?



I have never had this happen to me, but from what I understand it just happens sometimes. No real rhyme or reason. The fix is to try a different culture or blend some other must with the merlot. Doesn't have to be much, like 5% cab sauvignon or cab franc. But most reds benefit from malolactic.


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## Stevelaz (May 15, 2016)

Im thinking of starting malo...Am i still ok to do it ? Its been 21 days and fermentation is complete. Anyone use the Wyeast? Thats all i could find locally.


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## heatherd (May 15, 2016)

@Stevelaz did you add kmeta to stabilize? MLB don't like kmeta.

Wyeast is fine. Note that you need to bring it to room temperature before you pitch it.


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## WI_Wino (May 15, 2016)

Stevelaz said:


> Im thinking of starting malo...Am i still ok to do it ? Its been 21 days and fermentation is complete. Anyone use the Wyeast? Thats all i could find locally.



I had bad experience with the wyeast MLB. It pooped out and didn't fully convert the malic to lactic acid. Much better luck with the dried MLB. Check out morewine.com, RiteBrew.com, and the sponsor's forum for mail order options.


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## Stevelaz (May 15, 2016)

no, did not add anything to it yet...


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## heatherd (May 15, 2016)

Then you are fine to do MLF.

Again, warm the malolactic bacteria to room temperature before you put them in.

It can take three months for MLF to work, and you likely will not see any visible evidence of it working.

There are test kits you can buy to check its progress.

I usually just taste mine to know when it is done; it changes from tart to soft in taste.

Good luck!


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## Stevelaz (May 15, 2016)

is it ok that i have racked already?


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## heatherd (May 21, 2016)

Yes it is fine that you racked.


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