# How to make good wine from marginal fruit?



## NorCal (Sep 13, 2015)

We purchased a ton of grapes from a local vineyard. I think the farmer struggled this year and it showed in the crop. The brix came in at 23 but looks like it spiked overnight closer to 25. We adjusted acid to 3.5. On paper, we are there.

However, the fruit looked bad. Raisening, deer, bee damage, as well as underripe fruit. We did our best to filter these out, but frankly, even the good clusters didn't compare to the fruit that we got from the other vineyards we bought from this year.

This is water under the bridge and cannot see buying from the farmer again. So, any advice in handling this ton of Zin? Could it still be a decent vintage?


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## Rocky (Sep 13, 2015)

NorCal, sounds like you are making something around 140-150 gallons of Zinfandel. I think you will be fine. I suggest monitoring the batch very closely and see how it turns out. You could always blend it with another wine. Years ago we used to blend Zinfandel with Muscat (3:1). I know, a red and a white! It makes a great wine. Ironically, I am drinking it as I respond.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 13, 2015)

A good winemaker can make great wines with good grapes. A great winemaker can make great wine from mediocre grapes. 

I think you'll be fine, as @Rocky said. You can always blend if you need to. I've seen your videos and you and your partners seem to know what you're doing. I have complete faith you'll make a noteworthy beverage.


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## NorCal (Sep 13, 2015)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. This is the 5th major (1000+) fermentation that 4Score and I have done together the past two seasons and these grapes were by far the worse. 
For fun we took the reject pile, which was 20 of the 200 gallons of must and crushed it desperately. This morning I went to check on them to inoculate and there was very little liquid on the reject bin, assuming because of all the raisins soaking the liquid up. I added 2.5 gallons of water, just so I could move the berries around. After an hour, I got 24 brix 3.5 pH. We are calling it our Private Reserve.


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## Runningwolf (Sep 13, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> A good winemaker can make great wines with good grapes. A great winemaker can make great wine from mediocre grapes.



I respectfully disagree. The biggest part of winemaking happens in the vineyard. If you want great wine you need to start with great grapes. Mediocre grapes will give you good but not great wine. It will take work and chemicals to fix what is deficient and this will take away from flavor and aroma that will already be lacking. 

As Rocky said, make it and decide if blending it with another wine will enhance it.


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## sour_grapes (Sep 13, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> A good winemaker can make great wines with good grapes. A great winemaker can make great wine from mediocre grapes.
> 
> I think you'll be fine, as @Rocky said. You can always blend if you need to. I've seen your videos and you and your partners seem to know what you're doing. I have complete faith you'll make a noteworthy beverage.





Runningwolf said:


> I respectfully disagree. The biggest part of winemaking happens in the vineyard. If you want great wine you need to start with great grapes. Mediocre grapes will give you good but not great wine. It will take work and chemicals to fix what is deficient and this will take away from flavor and aroma that will already be lacking.
> 
> As Rocky said, make it and decide if blending it with another wine will enhance it.



I think Boatboy may have been referring to John 2:1-11


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## JohnT (Sep 14, 2015)

You always have the option of sorting your grapes. Go through your grapes and toss out anything that looks questionable.


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## NorCal (Sep 14, 2015)

JohnT said:


> You always have the option of sorting your grapes. Go through your grapes and toss out anything that looks questionable.



We did sort through the fruit and deemed 10% unusable, but even the 90% wasn't anything to write home about. Here is a good picture of the fruit on the sorting chute.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 14, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I think Boatboy may have been referring to John 2:1-11



Sadly, I'm not that witty. 

But I agree with Dan - was just giving NorCal a hard time. Only so much can be overcome in the winery. It starts out in the fields. Were that not the case, we'd all be making prize winning wines with grapes from the grocery store.


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## wineforfun (Sep 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You could always blend it with another wine. Years ago we used to blend *Zinfandel with Muscat (3:1). *I know, a red and a white! It makes a great wine. Ironically, I am drinking it as I respond.



Really? That is an interesting blend I would have never thought of. But then again, that is why you are much farther along in winemaking than myself.

May have to give that blend a go sometime.

I assume it is something along the lines of the Shiraz/Viognier blend, as far as it being a red with white?


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2015)

DJ, I am sure my Grandfather did not develop the blend. It was very common in Italian households back in the 50's and 60's. Poppy bought what was good fruit and priced well. There were some years when we used Alicante in place of the Zinfandel, either for the quality of the grapes available or the price. When I first made wine with him, I was about 8 years old. My job and my Brother's was to strip the grapes from the cluster and make sure that no leaves or moldy grapes went into the pails going to the crusher. Believe it or not but back then a 42 pound lug of Zinfandel grapes cost 75 cents. Later when grapes went up to $1 per lug I thought he was going to tear up the Produce Company. We used to net a good 3 gallons from a 42 pound lug so the wine cost about 25 cents a gallon or a nickel per bottle. This is when a bottle of Coke or Pepsi was also a nickel!

I have not blended any other combinations of red and white so I can't comment on the Shiraz/Viognier blend. I have done blending with Cabernet-Merlot-Sangiovese, Cabernet-Merlot, Cabernet-Sangiovese and, probably my favorite, Brunello-Barolo. Some of these were co-fermented and some post fermentation blended.

I realize you make wine from grapes but may I suggest that you get a 2.5 or 5 gallon Kit of Muscat from Williams Brewing Company (http://www.williamsbrewing.com/MUSCAT-CONCENTRATE-FOR-5-GALLONS-P1315.aspx), brew the Muscat and blend it with a portion of your Zinfandel. You may be surprised at the taste.


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## wineforfun (Sep 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> DJ, I am sure my Grandfather did not develope the blend. It was very common in Italian households back in the 50's and 60's. Poppy bought what was good fruit and priced well. There were some years when we used Alicante in place of the Zinfandel, either for the quality of the grapes available or the price. When I first made wine with him, I was about 8 years old. My job and my Brother's was to strip the grapes from the cluster and make sure that no leaves or moldy grapes went into the pails going to the crusher. Believe it or not but back then a 42 pound lug of Zinfandel grapes cost 75 cents. Later when grapes went up to $1 per lug I thought he was going to tear up the Produce Company. We used to net a good 3 gallons from a 42 pound lug so the wine cost about 25 cents a gallon or a nickel per bottle. This is when a bottle of Coke or Pepsi was also a nickel!
> 
> I have not blended any other combinations of red and white so I can't comment on the Shiraz/Viognier blend. I have done blending with Cabernet-Merlot-Sangiovese, Cabernet-Merlot, Cabernet-Sangiovese and, probably my favorite, Brunello-Barolo. Some of these were co-fermented and some post fermentation blended.
> 
> I realize you make wine from grapes but may I suggest that you get a 2.5 or 5 gallon Kit of Muscat from Williams Brewing Company (http://www.williamsbrewing.com/MUSCAT-CONCENTRATE-FOR-5-GALLONS-P1315.aspx), brew the Muscat and blend it with a portion of your Zinfandel. You may be surprised at the taste.



Great idea, thanks for all the insight.


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## sdelli (Sep 16, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> A good winemaker can make great wines with good grapes. A great winemaker can make great wine from mediocre grapes.
> 
> I think you'll be fine, as @Rocky said. You can always blend if you need to. I've seen your videos and you and your partners seem to know what you're doing. I have complete faith you'll make a noteworthy beverage.




Hmmmmm... Really have to disagree you will ever get great wine from mediocre grapes! I think that is called camouflage. The only way to get great wine is to start with great fruit! My two sense to this thread is fix it the best you can and learn to shop better in the future....


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## ibglowin (Sep 16, 2015)

Looks pretty good to me from the picture you posted anyways. Since you are in Northern CA and have access to a lot of fruit sources more than likely why did you go with this guy?



NorCal said:


> We did sort through the fruit and deemed 10% unusable, but even the 90% wasn't anything to write home about. Here is a good picture of the fruit on the sorting chute.


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## NorCal (Sep 17, 2015)

ibglowin said:


> Looks pretty good to me from the picture you posted anyways. Since you are in Northern CA and have access to a lot of fruit sources more than likely why did you go with this guy?



We got fruit from the same place last year and the wine turned out fine. A few things changed:

I made a sorting chute and inspected every cluster, last year, I closed my eyes and just threw everything in the destemmer.

We had two other ton purchases and the fruit was fantastic.

I'm a better winemaker with last year under my belt. I understand the amount of effort that goes into making a barrel of wine and I'm not willing to be satisfied with mediocrity.


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## ibglowin (Sep 17, 2015)

That can be fixed easily with more $$$$. LOL


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## NorCal (Sep 17, 2015)

ibglowin said:


> That can be fixed easily with more $$$$. LOL



I will be a lot more selective in the vineyard/ vineyard manager and won't be going back to this particular vineyard. It really isn't about the $. While he was cheaper, $1100/ton vs $1300 ton ends up being very little difference per bottle.


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## ibglowin (Sep 17, 2015)

Did you guys go visit the vineyard before harvest to inspect the fruit by chance. Probably a good idea to do since you are right there..Your right that extra $0.15/lb is nothing really if you can get noticeably better fruit for that money. Just remember, its been a heck of a year in California to try and grow anything. High heat, no water, high winds. I would hate to be in any vineyard owners shoes this year in CA.


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## NorCal (Sep 17, 2015)

We did go to the vineyard before and inspect the fruit. There was some good fruit, but I think where we differed is in how selective they were when it came time to put fruit in our bin. They definitely struggled this year and yields were down, but I have higher expectations than I received and they lost a customer. I accept blame of not articulating what is/is not acceptable, but using some common sense, it was clear we received marginal fruit and a lot of what I had to pull out, should not have been in the bin.


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## NorCal (Sep 18, 2015)

The Zin fermented fast and smooth. Temps peaked at 86 but most of the time was spent between 78-82. The lot was split a few ways; 32 gallons pulled off to make a white Zin, 70 gallons of must fermented with D80, 70 gallons D254. We took the usable rejects, destemmed and through it in a bucket, perhaps 25 gallons worth (calling this the reserve). No bad smells, juice tastes fine. Pressing tomorrow.

The brix of the reserve was 30 brix, after watering back, watered back a second time to 25 brix. I ended up taking 5 1/2 gallons of juice off the skins when it fermented down to 11 Brix. I'm now force feeding it sugar, maintaining the brix at 5, resulting in a sweet dessert type wine.


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## sdelli (Sep 18, 2015)

NorCal said:


> I will be a lot more selective in the vineyard/ vineyard manager and won't be going back to this particular vineyard. It really isn't about the $. While he was cheaper, $1100/ton vs $1300 ton ends up being very little difference per bottle.




Wow is that cheap! Must be because you are local.... We pay about $6k a ton landed in Mi for the grapes we purchase!


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 18, 2015)

NorCal said:


> The Zin fermented fast and smooth. Temps peaked at 86 but most of the time was spent between 78-82. The lot was split a few ways; 32 gallons pulled off to make a white Zin, 70 gallons of must fermented with D80, 70 gallons D254. We took the usable rejects, destemmed and through it in a bucket, perhaps 25 gallons worth (calling this the reserve). No bad smells, juice tastes fine. Pressing tomorrow.



Are you going to blend the D80 and D254 batches? I've read they make a pretty good combination.


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## NorCal (Sep 18, 2015)

sdelli said:


> Wow is that cheap! Must be because you are local.... We pay about $6k a ton landed in Mi for the grapes we purchase!



Yea, local. Plenty of vineyards within a 20 minute drive. Not to rub it in, but here is a pic of a random cluster from the vineyard we got the Mourvèdre, $1300/ton


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## NorCal (Sep 18, 2015)

Boatboy24 said:


> Are you going to blend the D80 and D254 batches? I've read they make a pretty good combination.



Yes we are. We heard the same and 4Score and I used this same D80/D254 combination on Mourvèdre, Barbera and Zin this season.


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## ibglowin (Sep 18, 2015)

Holy crap that looks better than a Playboy centerfold when I was much younger! 



NorCal said:


> Yea, local. Plenty of vineyards within a 20 minute drive. Not to rub it in, but here is a pic of a random cluster from the vineyard we got the Mourvèdre, $1300/ton


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## Kraffty (Sep 18, 2015)

Too funny mike, and accurate in a saddly / truly way


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## winetortoise (Sep 21, 2015)

Runningwolf said:


> I respectfully disagree. The biggest part of winemaking happens in the vineyard. If you want great wine you need to start with great grapes. Mediocre grapes will give you good but not great wine. It will take work and chemicals to fix what is deficient and this will take away from flavor and aroma that will already be lacking.
> 
> As Rocky said, make it and decide if blending it with another wine will enhance it.



I wonder how that reflects on wild grown and harvested fruits, like muscadines, berries etc. Some of these plants produce fruits very well--sometimes even better than when cultivated--in their wild environment. Might foraged fruits, when well understood, produce similarly as tasteful and delicious wines, as from their grape-harvested counterparts? Fruit for thought...


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