# Help! Can I save this mess?



## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

After enduring extreme trauma, and watching my open first fermenter for a week, I realized I had used "dead" yeast! 
Is this mess salvageable? Can I rack off the must and start over again with a new batch of active yeast?
Don't be gentle...just tell me if I should just pour it all down the drain.


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## arcticsid (Oct 22, 2009)

Old, you gotta tell us more than that! What are you making, what is the temperature, what kind of yeast did you use etc.

This wine is not lost! Don't resort to drastic meausres, fill us in and we'll see what we can do.

Troy


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## Sacalait (Oct 22, 2009)

Don't get excited and don't throw it out. What's the S.G. of the must and what are you trying to ferment?
Make a starter with new yeast and a bit of dissolved sugar. After this is going add some of the must and after that has started you can add it all to the main bucket of must.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

*Thanks!*

You guys will have a heart attack when I tell you how I'm going about this.
It's an old farm boy's approach, and I don't have a hydrometer, even if I _could_ read it. LOL 
I'm making plum "wine". 4 gal of juice + sugar, add yeast, let it set for 7-10 days, rack it into a carboy with a gas check (homemade), and wait until it stops bubbling. Rack it into bottles and drink in 2 weeks to a year.
As long as the bouquet is this side of swamp gas, and it stays down when you drink it, it's good.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

Sacalait said:


> Don't get excited and don't throw it out. What's the S.G. of the must and what are you trying to ferment?
> Make a starter with new yeast and a bit of dissolved sugar. After this is going add some of the must and after that has started you can add it all to the main bucket of must.


Thanks for the procedure! Wish me luck!


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## St Allie (Oct 22, 2009)

Just a thought,

You are using pure juice?

plums are acidic.. particularly wild plums.. not sure where you got your fruit from, however, you don't have any water in this recipe?.. The ferment could be hampered by high acid levels.. particularly if you are using bread yeast?

You may need to dilute the juice down a bit.

Allie


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

*Details...details...*



St Allie said:


> Just a thought,
> 
> You are using pure juice?
> 
> ...



Okay, I didn't mean so sound obtuse.
The juice was made from home grown Italian plums. My wife keeps yelling at me that they aren't prunes until their dried. 
It was 1 gallon of water, 1 pound of fruit (crushed), 1 pound of sugar, 1 oz of yeast. Multiply that by how many gallons you're making. Now here's the kicker: mix the water, mashed fruit and sugar together, and bring to a near boil for 5-10 minutes. It dawned upon me that this was a pasteurization process. Grrr... Anyway, too late. After that, the mash was strained out, let sit for 24 hours and the yeast added. The primary fermentation process was supposed to last about a week. I confirmed I used 'dead' yeast. 
So at this point, I guess I'm going to filter the liquid, and follow Sacalait's suggestion on re-starting the yeast.


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## St Allie (Oct 22, 2009)

sounds like a plan! hehhe

let us know how you get on.

Allie


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2009)

Is this Fleishmans yeast? Did it start to ferment? We treally need more info. You can read a hydrometer no problem, you can read a thermometer right, its that easy. Where ever it floats is the reading and if you plan on making wine you should get one or you are playing darts in the dark! Heres a what a hydro looks like and the specific gravity(sg) of this wine or must would be 1.072


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

Hey! That looks like the thing in my battery tester!
Seriously, I was being facetious. I just don't happen to have one (hydrometer) right now. 
No, it's not Fleischman's yeast, but I proofed some and it's viable. It's bread yeast from a restaurant supply outfit.
Plus, this is my first shot at plum "wine", and I'm just hoping for something between prune juice and lamp oil.
We have another quick-and-dirty batch of plum brandy going, and I'm much more confident of that tried and true recipe. This other stuff is the first attempt at mash>sugar>water>yeast>fermentation I've tried. Sounds from the posts above that I'll be able to save it.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

Okay, I just filtered the first mess into a second primary fermentation bucket. In the mean time, I found out among brewing yeasts, there are "top fermenters" and "bottom fermenters". Instead of a cap on the bucket, I had a layer of thick stuff on the bottom. Does that mean it was actually working? Now I'm more confused than ever. 
I'm going ahead with the new, active yeast anyway.


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2009)

That was ayeast for lagering and without being there or you having a htdrometer we cant tell you. Do you have an airlock?


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

Wade E said:


> That was ayeast for lagering and without being there or you having a htdrometer we cant tell you. Do you have an airlock?


When I rack it into a carboy in a week, it will have an airlock.


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## Wade E (Oct 22, 2009)

Can you hear it sizzling like a soda pop or anything to say its fermenting, any foam or anything.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 22, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Can you hear it sizzling like a soda pop or anything to say its fermenting, any foam or anything.


I'm still in the process of adding the new "live" yeast, per Sacalait's instructinos (post #3). I'll let ya know!


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 23, 2009)

*Huston, we have ignition!*



Wade E said:


> Can you hear it sizzling like a soda pop or anything to say its fermenting, any foam or anything.



I started the yeast in a separate container, per Sacalait, and just before it outgrew its new home, transfered the "starter" to the prune juice. It's not only sizzling and foaming, I think it even growled at me once. 
How long do you think I should let it go in the primary fermenter now, considering it's already sat open for a week, but only shown action since yesterday?


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## mmadmikes1 (Oct 23, 2009)

your battery tester is a hydrometer. My Italian plum wine did same thing last week It went to fermentation yesterday with .099 hydrometer reading. I did almost what they said but I added the stuck wine into the starter 1/2 at a time then let it sit 1 hour then another and so on. I tried a fresh yeast starter like suggested and it didn't work. nowI will have to go buy plums for a f-pak because I use my f-pak for new starter


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## Sacalait (Oct 23, 2009)

No need to worry about the lost week, just treat it as a new beginning. Without a hydrometer you're shooting in the dark. Depending on the temp. of the must it could be ready to transfer in as little as 3 days to as many as 7. With a hydrometer the transfer would take place when it reaches the 1.010 mark. If you don't get the hydrometer transfer to the secondary when the sizzling has died down to "almost" nothing.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 23, 2009)

Sacalait said:


> No need to worry about the lost week, just treat it as a new beginning. Without a hydrometer you're shooting in the dark. Depending on the temp. of the must it could be ready to transfer in as little as 3 days to as many as 7. With a hydrometer the transfer would take place when it reaches the 1.010 mark. If you don't get the hydrometer transfer to the secondary when the sizzling has died down to "almost" nothing.


Thanks for the help! If there's no activity in the air lock after a couple days, would it be ready to rack into bottles, or is there a specified time in the 2nd fermenter?


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## Sacalait (Oct 23, 2009)

Don't rush into bottling, give it a chance to clear. After the sediment has dropped out and the wine is clear rack off of the sediment into another carboy. Allow this to settle for a month or so. Again rack off the sediment (there will be a little) into a bucket then add one crushed camden tablet per gallon of wine. If you're going to sweeten it up then also add 1/2tsp of potassium sorbate per gallon to prevent it from fermenting again and then bottle it.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 23, 2009)

Sacalait said:


> Don't rush into bottling, give it a chance to clear. After the sediment has dropped out and the wine is clear rack off of the sediment into another carboy. Allow this to settle for a month or so. Again rack off the sediment (there will be a little) into a bucket then add one crushed camden tablet per gallon of wine. If you're going to sweeten it up then also add 1/2tsp of potassium sorbate per gallon to prevent it from fermenting again and then bottle it.


Thanks! I knew I came to the right forum! 
Now, do you mean literally to siphon out the sediment, or to rack off the _wine_, leaving the sediment behind?


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 24, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Can you hear it sizzling like a soda pop or anything to say its fermenting, any foam or anything.


Day 2, and it's bubbling away like a freshly poured glass of champagne. We'll see how the rest of the process goes.


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## Sacalait (Oct 24, 2009)

Rack off the sediment leaving it behind. In racking you always siphon off the good stuff and discard the bad.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 24, 2009)

Sacalait said:


> Rack off the sediment leaving it behind. In racking you always siphon off the good stuff and discard the bad.



My ignorance.... I need to learn the lingo. I would have racked off the wine (from the sediment). 

Why is it rack, and not siphon?
Why is it must, and not...wait! I figured that one out! With everything mixed together, it's not juice, it's not berries, it's not mash, so it MUST be all three! 

Why is the grass green and why am I still typing?


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2009)

M ust is when it is all mixed up and not fermenting. Once it has made some alc it is then called wine. Siphoning is the act of withdrawing a liquid while racking is the act of withdrawing and transferring into another veesel.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 24, 2009)

Sacalait said:


> No need to worry about the lost week, just treat it as a new beginning. Without a hydrometer you're shooting in the dark. Depending on the temp. of the must it could be ready to transfer in as little as 3 days to as many as 7. With a hydrometer the transfer would take place when it reaches the 1.010 mark. If you don't get the hydrometer transfer to the secondary when the sizzling has died down to "almost" nothing.


Being the impatient sort, I tried the weight-to-volume approach to see if I could guess at the SG. I had to use very small quantities due to the size of my scale. I used a 1 Tbs measurement (14.787 ml). The crap that comes out of my faucet weighed in at 120 grains. The "wine" weighed 199.62 gr. Doing it this way says my SG is 1.6635!!! Then it dawned upon me that the whole process is flawed, because I'm also weighing whatever is in suspension at this time. Oh, well....I tried.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 24, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Is this Fleishmans yeast? Did it start to ferment? We treally need more info. You can read a hydrometer no problem, you can read a thermometer right, its that easy. Where ever it floats is the reading and if you plan on making wine you should get one or you are playing darts in the dark! Heres a what a hydro looks like and the specific gravity(sg) of this wine or must would be 1.072


 Whoopee! Dionysus was smilin' on ME tonight! I decided to go out and dig through the shed where stuff has been stored for about 12 years. I was led to a little box that said, "Wine Making". It was a hand-me-down from my brother-in-law. Inside this little treasure box was about 3' of tubing, a mess of corks, 4 air-locks and.....a HYDROMETER!!!
This hydrometer has 3 different scales on it, but the SG scale reads differently from yours, Wade.
Mine goes:
999
1,000
10
20 (each numbered division has 5 tic marks, increments of 2)
30
40
50
60
70
80
90
1,100
10
etc...
Right now, my "brew" reads dead on 1010.
What is this really telling me, as far as where I am in the 1st fermentation? Is this the 1.01 reading Sacalait was talking about?


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2009)

make sure to put the decimal point where it should be as sometimes that can confuse us and lead us to give you the wrong info. Im pretty sure you mean 1.010 as its almost finished right? This one is pretty easy but others.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 24, 2009)

Wade E said:


> make sure to put the decimal point where it should be as sometimes that can confuse us and lead us to give you the wrong info. Im pretty sure you mean 1.010 as its almost finished right? This one is pretty easy but others.


No decimal places. It starts out at 990 and goes up. The must is sitting at that first big "10". (1010 must translate into 1.01, right?) BTW: the pH is around 4, if my papers are working.


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## St Allie (Oct 25, 2009)

yes that translates as 1.010.. 

Allie


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## Wade E (Oct 25, 2009)

Correct, that translates to 1.010 and a ph of 4 is a little high, do you have an acid tester as thats probably low and needs to go up which in turn will lower your ph.


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## St Allie (Oct 25, 2009)

hehehe Wade

Snap!


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 25, 2009)

Wade E said:


> Correct, that translates to 1.010 and a ph of 4 is a little high, do you have an acid tester as thats probably low and needs to go up which in turn will lower your ph.


No acid tester. But I have a volt meter. If I stick a couple electrodes in it, and it lights a flashlight bulb, is it ready? 
Seriously though, it should be ready to rack into the 2nd fermenter and put on the air lock, right? And what sort of pH should I be looking for?


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 25, 2009)

Disregard the question about the pH, I got my answer.
But I do have a couple other questions about chemistry. Do pH papers ever expire/loose their quality? How about Campden tablets? The reason I ask is the wine making supplies I dug out of storage have Campden tablets and some White Tannin powder that are probably pushing 20 years old, as well as the pH papers.


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## Midwest Vintner (Oct 26, 2009)

yeah, they are probably all bad by now. i wouldn't want to risk a batch for old supplies. you can order new stuff on the net for pretty cheap.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 27, 2009)

This mess went into the 2nd fermenter yesterday. The air-lock says it's still working. The SG was about .999-1.000 when I racked it. 
At what point do I re-rack, and consider filtering?


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## Sacalait (Oct 27, 2009)

Wait until there is no longer any activity in the air lock. Degas it and then give it at least a month, the longer the better. The longer it sits the more compressed the sediment will be which will yield more wine.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 27, 2009)

Once the activity in the air-lock ceases, I figured I'd splash rack it into a bucket where I could degas it. Would it be a good plan to filter it during this splash racking? After degassing, I'd put it back in the carboy with an air-lock for further settling and bulk aging. Does all that sound reasonable?


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## Sacalait (Oct 27, 2009)

Avoid splash racking, that will allow more air into the wine which you don't want at this point. Siphon off into another carboy or bucket if that's what you've got but then go back to the carboy and attach air lock. Then splash or agitate to degas. Filtering is the last step in the process when it will seem unnecessary to filter cause it will be so clear.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 27, 2009)

Sacalait said:


> ...Siphon off into another carboy or bucket if that's what you've got but then go back to the carboy and attach air lock. Then splash or agitate to degas. ....


Gotcha! But now I'm over-thinking this and confusing myself again. So all the talk about degassing by stirring or agitating with a drill attachment is actually done IN THE CARBOY? I had visions of folks doing this in a bucket, or such, and now I'm scratching my head on the degassing issue. <sigh>


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## Sacalait (Oct 27, 2009)

In the carboy it is. It's also advisable to top up the carboy after degassing to avoid over exposure to oxygen.


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## Old Philosopher (Oct 29, 2009)

*Live and learn...*

I've certainly learned a lot over the past 2 weeks, here on the forum.
I wish this had been my _first_ stop!
After 2 weeks of spinning my wheels, I'm ready to start over from scratch.
Staring woefully at my carboy, I realize I have 3 gallons of yeast-flavored prune juice, with 0% alcohol content. Hey! Maybe I can donate it to the local rest home.
The original post was "can I save this mess?" After 40 posts, I guess the answer is NO.
I think the killing blow was the 4 oz of yeast, which should have been 1 oz., and the 4 pounds of sugar, which should have been closer to 8.
Thank you all for getting me in touch with reality.


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2009)

*Didn't save it.*

This was the mess I had after 3 weeks I did just about everything wrong, beginning with following some guy's advice who claimed he made "200 gal a year" with this so-called recipe. I had Italian prunes. I started out with pasteurized PULP (*pitted, skins on*), with the sugar already added. Then ended up putting 48x the necessary amount of yeast in it. Combination of carbonated prune juice, dead yeast, and who knows how much alcohol. My second batch is working just as it should, so this was not worth saving and frustrating myself more. 
I'll post a picture of the "good stuff" as soon as I rack it in a couple days.


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## St Allie (Nov 2, 2009)

Too much yeast isn't likely to be the culprit btw ..

yeast only multiplies up until all the sugars are consumed.

Allie


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2009)

St Allie said:


> Too much yeast isn't likely to be the culprit btw ..
> 
> yeast only multiplies up until all the sugars are consumed.
> 
> Allie


They certainly were! I should have said BITTER, carbonated yeast water. 
Seriously, if I had sulfite'd it, and meticulously sterilized everything, I might have tried to wait it out, F-pak'd it, and back sweetened. But I'm on my way toward apple jack, so I chalked it up to experience.


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## St Allie (Nov 2, 2009)

I would have bulk stored it.. left it to its own devices for a year..

however, can afford to do that.. I have spare carboys now.

You'd be surprised how much things can change in a years time...


Allie


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 2, 2009)

St Allie said:


> You'd be surprised how much things can change in a years time...
> 
> Allie



(O.P.'s plum wine, a year in the future)


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 3, 2009)

SEE Artic some one else uses condoms as air looks. But condoms on the airlocks, Wine cant get pregenant or AIDS


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## St Allie (Nov 3, 2009)

mmadmikes1 said:


> SEE Artic some one else uses condoms as air looks. But condoms on the airlocks, Wine cant get pregenant or AIDS



Those carboys look like leprosy got them before a condom could save them..

Allie


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## Wade E (Nov 3, 2009)

Why the condoms? Did you lose the tops for those airlocks?


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## arcticsid (Nov 3, 2009)

Sorry Mike. I am probably guilty of a lot of things, but, those are not my condoms, and I don't use canning jars except for pickled salmon. LOL!!!!

Troy


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 3, 2009)

this was my shortage of airlock solution http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=76&pictureid=342


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## arcticsid (Nov 3, 2009)

I actually bought my first airlocks last week. They look pretty simalir to those that are "protected" LOL. I have always used a blow by tube, simply a hose going into a sulfite solution, it can burp, but it cant burp back.

Troy


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## Wade E (Nov 3, 2009)

I understand the condoms use but it is on a airlock so did you lose the top for the airlock?


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## arcticsid (Nov 3, 2009)

Who?, not mine!! I may go so far as to fortify a wine, or go for a high ABV, but impregnating my wine is something I am not worried about. LOL. Geez, I am not even sure if my wine likes me so I probably couldn't get that far if I tried. ROTFLMAO!

Troy


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## mmadmikes1 (Nov 3, 2009)

LOLOL just trying to prevent infections(yeast infections)


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## Old Philosopher (Nov 4, 2009)

Wade E said:


> I understand the condoms use but it is on a airlock so did you lose the top for the airlock?


Wade, I "stole" that pic off the web as a joke, when Allie was telling me to wait a year on my plum wine. 

(BTW: those Mason jars contain sauerkraut)


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