# lateral or no lateral



## berrycrush (Nov 9, 2015)

When choosing next year's fruiting cane, as I understand, one should pick a thick cane; but what if that thick cane has a lot laterals grown in the late autumn? Do you pick that cane or pick one that doesn't have many laterals?


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## oregondabbler (Nov 9, 2015)

It sounds like you are cane pruning as opposed to spur pruning. A while back I read that you didn't want to leave the thickest canes, rather to select canes that are about the thickness of a pencil. For my vineyard, I select canes without laterals. Guidance from our extension agency (Oregon State) is to leave roughly 20-30 buds per vine. 

If there are a lot of vines with thick canes and many laterals, you might be pruning too heavily. 

http://www.extension.org/pages/31140/pruning-grape-vines:-an-overview#.VkEwIdKrTs0

_" When there are too few shoots in relation to the vine’s growth capacity, the vine compensates for the deficit by increasing the vigor of the remaining shoots, producing more extensive lateral growth, and stimulation of shoot growth from secondary, tertiary, or latent buds. The consequence is often an excessively shaded canopy that provides a poor fruit-ripening environment."_


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## grapeman (Nov 9, 2015)

What training system are you using? That can make a difference, but I agree that you probably want a thinner cane for either top wire or mid-wire pruned. I would also go for closer nodes if the vigor is getting a bit too much. That will leave more fruit on the vine and lessen the vigor a bit. It all has to do with balance as alluded to by oregondabbler and the extension piece.


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## GreginND (Nov 9, 2015)

Rich,

I was hoping you would answer this as I have a similar question. I had amazing growth on my frontenac vines this year and lots of laterals and I really don't know how to prune them properly for fruit in the spring.

These were their second year and grew from the ground with a TWC trellis and training system.

I was planning to establish my trunks and cordons this year expecting the fruiting canes next year to emerge from the buds along the cordons. Well, they grew and grew and grew - 6 feet up to the wire and most of the cordons grew another 8-10 feet in either direction. In addition, nearly every bud along the cordon in my 8-foot space for the vines grew a lateral 2-5 feet long. I was not expecting all of those laterals.

My question is - will the buds along the cordons produce new canes/fruit next year or was that spent growing these laterals this year? Do I prune the laterals back to 2-3 buds next year and get fruit from those?


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## grapeman (Nov 10, 2015)

Greg generally I find that those laterals on the young vines are just too small to leave as spurs - like probably too thin to want to develop fruiting canes off of. I just trim them off as close as I can without damaging the bud at the junction of the lateral. That sends out a fruiting shoot and this gives plenty of grapes without overburdening the young vine too badly. If you leave all those laterals as spurs, you will need to prune off a lot of the crop load otherwise the vine overbears for it's age (and it is extra work).


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## GreginND (Nov 10, 2015)

Thanks Rich.

Some of the laterals are pencil thick or more. I may use them for cuttings. I was mostly concerned about the cordons. I wasn't sure if the laterals grew from what would have been next year's buds or not. It sounds like there should still be fruiting buds at the nodes the laterals grew from.

Crossing my fingers for the first decent winter in 3 years and finally getting some fruit in my vineyard next year!


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## berrycrush (Nov 10, 2015)

Thanks Greg for elaborating the exact situation where I am, and thanks to Rich as always for your insight. My vines are in second year and I will try different training systems for different varieties. VSP, TWC, or 4-arm Knifen. As I understand, the cane I pick for next years fruiting will also become the cordon in years to come, am I wrong?


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## grapeman (Nov 10, 2015)

berrycrush said:


> Thanks Greg for elaborating the exact situation where I am, and thanks to Rich as always for your insight. My vines are in second year and I will try different training systems for different varieties. VSP, TWC, or 4-arm Knifen. As I understand, the cane I pick for next years fruiting will also become the cordon in years to come, am I wrong?


 

Yes, but not necessarily......... Yes they can become the cordon and continue to be used until they are no longer desirable and then replaced or you can heat prune the trunk and lay new canes down each year. That is the difference between spur pruned and cane pruned.


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## GreginND (Nov 10, 2015)

Is there any trials with data on cane vs spur pruning for cold hardy hybrids?


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## grapeman (Nov 10, 2015)

Not that I know of Greg, but there may be some out there. Ask extension. They may know. Generally vineyard managers come up with their own preferences. Some of it depends on the availability of skilled pruning labor or the lack thereof (at least that is one answer I have been given). I use spur pruned cordons for as long as they remain healthy. Marquette seems to be one variety that the cordons go to heck after a number of years. When they start to look bad, we leave a couple shoots growing to replace them with the next year. Just lay those canes down the following spring and you will have replacement cordons to last for a number of years.


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## mfzona (Nov 14, 2015)

Northern grapes project webinar may have some info that's helps......

https://youtu.be/FVLrAOCzQ5E


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## grapeman (Nov 14, 2015)

That trial compares VSP and TWC not necessarily cane versus spur pruning. Their trials were begun after I attended a planning meeting for ways to help promote the northern grown grapes when they were looking at applying for a multi-state multi-million dollar grant. I shared results of some of my earlier training system trials with the group and these trials were added as one of the components of the grant. For what it is worth my training system trials after that included more systems than participating universities adopted.


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## berrycrush (Nov 18, 2015)

This Virginia winemaker made a comparison between cane and spur pruning:
http://www.lindenvineyards.com/who-we-are/articles/?articleid=16


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## GreginND (Nov 19, 2015)

Thanks. It looks like he is growing vinifera.


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