# How long does it take for a 23L barrel to become neutral?



## David219 (Jan 4, 2014)

I currently have my third kit resting in my barrel. It is a WE Eclipse OVZ and has been in the barrel for two weeks.

I ran a WE Selection International Shiraz through the barrel as the "break in". It was in for 4weeks. I tasted at 2 and 3 weeks. I debated racking out of the barrel at three, because the oak was coming on pretty strong, but left it for four. I'm hoping the oak tames down. If anything, I can taste along the way as it ages to monitor how the oak behaves with time and take notes to learn...

The second kit was actually a Meritage-style blend of three WE kits. I had planned on leaving it in 8 weeks, but on tasting (and because if the oakiness of the first kit), I racked out if the barrel at six weeks. It tasted pretty oaky...

Now the Zin is in. I have two kits that will be ready to go into the barrel when the Zin leaves (Another WE Shiraz and the WE Amarone skins kit). I had hoped to be able to leave it in for at least 10-12 weeks, but I don't want another over-oaked kit...

For those who have used barrels for a while, how long does it take (on average) for a 23L Vadai to become neutral? I look forward to the time when I can leave a kit in for maybe 4 months or more (testing for SO2 along the way) to take advantage of the aging/micro oxygenation property of the barrel and less on the oak flavor. Right now, the oaking is really limiting the aging time. 

How many kit runs are you in a "sweet spot" where you're still getting some oak flavor, but can comfortably leave the kit in as long as you like?

My production is fast outpacing my ability to store and consume...and even though my wife likes my wine and am able to give away a bunch as gifts and such, she rolled her eyes a bit when I started the Amarone kit..."We can't put an addition on the basement, you know."


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## Runningwolf (Jan 4, 2014)

A typical barrel is used three times before it becomes neutral. Some others can chime in here about 23L barrels. I wish I had a few 10-15 gallon neutral barrels for aging my wine and port in. I would add oak spirals or staves to them.


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## tonyt (Jan 4, 2014)

I find the forth batch can stay in three months. After that I run each kit in for three months. By the fifth kit you can go as long as you want IMO. By a year and a half you need to add oak cubes or spirals, I do this in carboys rather than in the barrels. For me after 18months of use the barrels really hit a sweet spot.


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## ibglowin (Jan 4, 2014)

I have 4 of them. Oak is a personal thing of course. I can easily get 18-24 months of oak out of a 23L barrel. After that I add 3 oz of beans into the barrel.


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## David219 (Jan 5, 2014)

@ibglowin: at 18 months, how long are you leaving wine in the barrel?


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## ibglowin (Jan 5, 2014)

David219 said:


> @ibglowin: at 18 months, how long are you leaving wine in the barrel?



6 months. My last Vadai I did a 4 week break in with a Kit red, then a 6 month with a Petite Sirah from fresh grapes that I am making into a Port "styled" wine then 6 months for a straight Syrah from fresh grapes. The port could take a lot of oak since it will be back sweetened and have the ABV bumped with Brandy. I will also be blending the Syrah with another batch of Syrah from a neutral barrel so that will cut the oak way back on that one.


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## tonyt (Jan 6, 2014)

FWIW, some have posted in other threads that for small neutral barrels three to four months provides an adequate amount of micro-oxygenation. for kit wine. This link to an earlier thread goes into more detail. http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum...nch-vs-american-vs-canadian-30572/#post338475


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## David219 (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks, tonyt! That's the type of info I'm looking for. I "subscribed" to it to bookmark it. 

Deezil and Robie hit the nail on the head with my question: how long will it take...both in time and in number of kits...for the barrel to be at a point that I can leave a kit in it for 3-4 months (at least) and not have it over-oaked to get the advantage of micro oxygenation? And then, how many kits can I run through the barrel and get the best of both worlds...impartation of oak flavor AND micro oxygenation with the barrel alone? Once the barrel is neutral, I get all MO and no oak, but can always use cubes or spirals to get that.

I was hoping the barrel wouldn't chew up so many kits to get to that 3-4 month barreling point...I'm running out of cellaring space. I was prepared, both financially and cellar space-wise for the 4-8-12-16 week general schedule. A 2-4-6-8 week deal will take me twice as many kits as I was prepared to buy and cellar to get to that point where I'm getting the benefit of micro oxygenation. To me, that is the bigger benefit of having the barrel, because oak can be added in other ways.


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## ibglowin (Jan 6, 2014)

You can also do the 4-8-12-16 break in and then go back and rotate the 4 and 8 week kits back through the barrel as the oak levels will drop after a few months.


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## tonyt (Jan 6, 2014)

David219 said:


> I was hoping the barrel wouldn't chew up so many kits to get to that 3-4 month barreling point...I'm running out of cellaring space. I was prepared, both financially and cellar space-wise for the 4-8-12-16 week general schedule. A 2-4-6-8 week deal will take me twice as many kits



If you choose the first couple of kits properly you could get the 4-8-12-16 schedule. Understand kit one should be something that 1) can take lots of oak and 2) that you haven't added any provided oak in secondary or aging.

I think you should get 6 kits through at three months each during the sweet spot when the barrel is still imparting oak flavor while being able to keep wine in the barrel 3-4 months. A great deal depends on your preferred oak level and the tolerance of the variety you are barreling.


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## whynot (Jan 9, 2014)

Really appreciate this thread, my Vadi came in today. I got the 20L specifically so I can top off with the same batch (hopefully). 

I'll run a WE OVZin next month, planning 4-8-12-16, then hoping neutral from that point and doing a kit every ~90 days.


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## David219 (Jan 9, 2014)

@whynot: Good luck and have fun with your new barrel! Taste periodically...the wine will soak up a lot of oak in the first few runs. I read you're also getting a Vinmetrica tester? I ended up getting the SC-300 with my barrel so that I could test pH and free SO2. The barrel will chew up sulfite...


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## tonyt (Jan 9, 2014)

whynot said:


> Really appreciate this thread, my Vadi came in today. I got the 20L specifically so I can top off with the same batch (hopefully).
> 
> I'll run a WE OVZin next month, planning 4-8-12-16, then hoping neutral from that point and doing a kit every ~90 days.



I doubt it will be neutral after only 10 months IMHO. Careful with 4 weeks on the OVZ. Taste every week for the first few months of use.


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## ibglowin (Jan 10, 2014)

I agree with Tony, 18 mo minimum. Also don't panic if the oak is strong when you pull it out. Oak fades over 6 mo or so from a barrel (in my experience). This is opposite from cubes. I have had wines that spent 6 months in a barrel and they tasted perfect. Bulk age another 6 months in carboy and taste before bottling and there was hardly any oak so I added an ounce of beans into the carboy and waited another month or so before bottling.


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## whynot (Jan 10, 2014)

tonyt said:


> I doubt it will be neutral after only 10 months IMHO. Careful with 4 weeks on the OVZ. Taste every week for the first few months of use.



Yeah, planning on tasting, and not the hijack the thread, but would it be more reasonable to expect 2 weeks first? I want to make sure I have a 2nd batch ready to go, so starting that one and timing it is critical..


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## tonyt (Jan 10, 2014)

Two to three weeks would be normal for me on first batch. Others may go longer but that would be lots of oak.


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