# starting cuttings



## franc1969 (Mar 16, 2021)

I am new to starting cuttings. I have two bud and three bud cuttings of Marechal Foch- how deep do I put them into soil mix? And does rooting hormone actually help, or is it the heat mat that does it? I have Brianna and Lorelai that endedup puting out root starts on their own, I was given them in seed mix already. We'll see what takes, I ordered other plants from DoubleAA so I wouldn't have to try this. I have enough apple to graft already.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 16, 2021)

I had better luck last year by putting the bottom of the cuttings in bags of moist potting soil, tying the top and putting the whole bag on a heat mat. This year I tried flats with potting soil and placing the flat on the heat mat. Last year the results were awful - maybe 5 to 10 % success, this year was worse.

The best luck I had last year was sticking the cutting (three buds) in the ground next to the mother vine and walking away for several weeks.

I've read that rooting compound doesn't help. I found no difference in the ones I started inside. I did not use rooting compound on those I just stuck in the ground.

Best plan is buy from Double A and try everything to root cuttings. Someone has to tell me what I am doing wrong. I can grow anything - except grapevine cuttings.


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## franc1969 (Mar 16, 2021)

I did buy what I wanted, faster and I am sure they are alive when the real grape people like DoubleAA do it.  These were 'i'd try but not buy', at least until the ground and trellis are done for next year. And I got Norton and muscadines from Ison's, getting ready to put those in this spring.
I just don't know how deep to try- they have nodes 6-7 inches apart. The other cuttings had more nodes overall, and under the soil, and I am not pulling out to see where they developed roots.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 16, 2021)

* cuttings take better if you are at the stage where buds visibly swell, but have not broken open (committed themselves to leaf tissue). You are probably zone five so it ie a good time to do it. I am zone four but pruned so some are going
* roots like their feet warm/ not hot making humidity condense, if you have condensation as in the sun there is a risk of mold taking over
* I have done community pots and individual long sleeves. This year I cut some four inch pipe by ten long, put a newspaper bag in the pipe, filled the bag with potting mix, treated cuttings with rootone , and inserted to the bottom.
I have enough length to have two nodes on all cuttings and some have three nodes


* once leaves pop out I will take the bag off so that they do not mold

I have given the neighbor a pail of cuttings in water and they took off in the water,, grapes are fairly easy to root so using Rootone can be overkill, ,,, but then I have been working at this bottle for fifty years and ought to finish it.


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## Cynewulf (Mar 16, 2021)

I’ve tried sticking them in the ground the last two years with no success. I heard just putting them in a glass of water is the easiest so I have some I clipped last week soaking right now. We’ll see in the next week or two if I have any luck.


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## Ivywoods (Mar 17, 2021)

This is going to make me sound nuttier than a fruitcake but a gentleman from a local vineyard advised me he ONLY roots his cuttings upside down in a bucket of sand. He said one year he tried to start 200 cuttings by sticking them in the ground. Unfortunately it was a very dry year and he lost all but about 6 or 7. He tried the upside down in the sand thing the next year and almost every single one rooted. He swears now that is the only way he will do it. He said keep the sand moist and the sun heats the top end of the cutting faster, encouraging a scab and then roots. I was going to get some cuttings from him but he said he will just start those cuttings for me, so I will get to see how he does it. I think the entire cutting has to be covered in the sand.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 18, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> I was going to get some cuttings from him but he said he will just start those cuttings for me, so I will get to see how he does it. I think the entire cutting has to be covered in the sand.



Keep us posted. I had some start with air roots; we'll see how they do. I still can't understand why people say it is so easy. I think it is tremendously difficult. Maybe I haven't found that best method for me.


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## Vern (Mar 18, 2021)

About 5 years ago I pruned my vines in late February. I made about 25 cuttings, stuck them in potting soil, put them in a old unheated barn. After a few months I saw bud swelling, then transfered them outside in a dense woods. Kept them watered and all but 2 grew. Now the sad part, I had no use for them so I burned them. I just wanted to try propagation.


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## berrycrush (Mar 18, 2021)

For the last few years, I have been sticking my cutting in a pot with potting soil and leave them on my balcony, they all grow OK. I transfer the ones I needed to the field the next year.


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## franc1969 (Mar 18, 2021)

Ivywoods said:


> This is going to make me sound nuttier than a fruitcake but a gentleman from a local vineyard advised me he ONLY roots his cuttings upside down in a bucket of sand. He said one year he tried to start 200 cuttings by sticking them in the ground. Unfortunately it was a very dry year and he lost all but about 6 or 7. He tried the upside down in the sand thing the next year and almost every single one rooted. He swears now that is the only way he will do it. He said keep the sand moist and the sun heats the top end of the cutting faster, encouraging a scab and then roots. I was going to get some cuttings from him but he said he will just start those cuttings for me, so I will get to see how he does it. I think the entire cutting has to be covered in the sand.


That sounds similar to commercial grape cutting propagation. I don't have enough to do that process, less than 2 dozen total. Just trying to be effective.


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## Snafflebit (Mar 18, 2021)

I have found that rooting hormone does nothing to help grape cuttings root.


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## VillaVino (Mar 19, 2021)

I have about 75 cuttings. About 50 on a heat mat and the rest in front of the slider. I just stick them in the powered root hormone, put them in a styrofoam cup 3/4 filled with potting soil with the bottom punched with a pencil. I’ve done this before with very good success. Just waiting for some buds to appear. It’s been only 5 days. Will report progress. Pruning tomorrow and will get a dozen concord cuttings going as well.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 20, 2021)

do you have photos/ time lapse?


VillaVino said:


> Will report progress.


? Q: what do the vines/ bud size look like for successful propagation ?


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## Snafflebit (Mar 20, 2021)

Heat mats are great. I use them for cuttings and starting seeds.


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## VillaVino (Mar 21, 2021)

Well, here are the cuttings. Ran out of potting soil so there will be about 25 more at the end of the day. Nothing but sticks at the moment. To answer Rice guy, I really didn’t look at bud size when I made the cuttings. Just tried to get at least 3 buds per cutting. Oh ya, ran out of heat mat too.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 6, 2021)

The buds from the mid March cuttings were swelling at two weeks and have popped open at three.


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## JustJoe (Apr 7, 2021)

I tried starting sime concord cuttings and they budded and looked like Rice_guy's picture. The buds started to open to the point where tiny leaves were visible. Then they all died. When I gave up on them I pulled them up to see what the roots looked like and found nothing at all. There was not a single little rootlet to be found.
Any idea what I did wrong.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 7, 2021)

The issue I have had is high humidity and temperature which resulted in mold on the cuttings. When I see pronounced leaves I pull the cover bag. The vines here are still tight enough outside that cuttings could be done for at least another week. ,,, Was there any sigh of fuzzy mold or webbing like spider web?
The set in the photo will grow/ develop in the bags for roughly a month before i try to plant them outside. At that point they should have small roots which I damaged pulling them apart so they get daily water outside for another month.


JustJoe said:


> I tried starting sime concord cuttings and they budded and looked like Rice_guy's picture. The buds started to open to the point where tiny leaves were visible. Then they all died. When I gave up on them I pulled them up to see what the roots looked like and found nothing at all. There was not a single little rootlet to be found.
> Any idea what I did wrong.


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## JustJoe (Apr 8, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> The issue I have had is high humidity and temperature which resulted in mold on the cuttings. When I see pronounced leaves I pull the cover bag. The vines here are still tight enough outside that cuttings could be done for at least another week. ,,, Was there any sigh of fuzzy mold or webbing like spider web?
> The set in the photo will grow/ develop in the bags for roughly a month before i try to plant them outside. At that point they should have small roots which I damaged pulling them apart so they get daily water outside for another month.


No mold was visible but I had them sitting on a heat mat and I watered them regularly.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 8, 2021)

JustJoe said:


> No mold was visible but I had them sitting on a heat mat and I watered them regularly.


When I do cuttings I create a high humidity tent/ start with moist potting mix/ do not touch till i see growth. A commercial greenhouse may use a heat mat and usually will have misters to keep the mix damp but not wet. Roots will be minimal at the start and our goal is to prevent the twig from using all it’s moisture up on leaves before it has time to grow roots. 
Grapes can be rooted in water which improves the moisture dynamics. 
A third option is to create a bag of moist potting mix on a node and rooting on the plant, not preferred though since we get one new plant for each rooted bag.

It is not too late in the season for rooting. When temperatures are in the 80s and 90s the potting mix (or soil) drys out before roots get to grow. This is part of the logic of watching/ watering for the first month that cuttings are in the ground.


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## dwhill40 (Apr 8, 2021)

I've used pots of sand with good luck. Gotta keep them moist. Don't be fooled by the buds sprouting, they have little to do with roots. In fact, I keep them out of direct sun in an open garage until the roots grow then introduce them to light. Btw, some root stocks don't propagate easily.


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## JustJoe (Apr 8, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> When I do cuttings I create a high humidity tent/ start with moist potting mix/ do not touch till i see growth. A commercial greenhouse may use a heat mat and usually will have misters to keep the mix damp but not wet. Roots will be minimal at the start and our goal is to prevent the twig from using all it’s moisture up on leaves before it has time to grow roots.
> Grapes can be rooted in water which improves the moisture dynamics.
> A third option is to create a bag of moist potting mix on a node and rooting on the plant, not preferred though since we get one new plant for each rooted bag.
> 
> It is not too late in the season for rooting. When temperatures are in the 80s and 90s the potting mix (or soil) drys out before roots get to grow. This is part of the logic of watching/ watering for the first month that cuttings are in the ground.


Thanks! Since I already pruned the vines and burned everything I won't be able try again this year but I will next spring.


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## Rice_Guy (Apr 23, 2021)

These cuttings were started March 18th, ,,, nice root growth since the earlier photo;


The next step will be to plant outside in about a week, Planting is a balancing act, ,, Madison had 27F two nights ago so I will watch to see when it looks like frost is over, ,, I don’t want to get into 80F daytime temps since that means more watering of young plants in the vineyard.

This plant was a compost pile volunteer which started verasion in the last week of July 2020, currently named _Novia Tempranilo,. ,, _based on Woods verasion comments I am curious if @wood1954 would like one? 2020 numbers were TA 0.77%, gravity 1.094, pH 3.29 when it was picked.


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## VillaVino (May 12, 2021)

Progress


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## wood1954 (May 22, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> These cuttings were started March 18th, ,,, nice root growth since the earlier photo;
> View attachment 73710
> 
> The next step will be to plant outside in about a week, Planting is a balancing act, ,, Madison had 27F two nights ago so I will watch to see when it looks like frost is over, ,, I don’t want to get into 80F daytime temps since that means more watering of young plants in the vineyard.
> ...


I would love to try this if still available


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## Rice_Guy (May 22, 2021)

wood1954 said:


> I would love to try this if still available


They have been in the ground for there weeks and half lost all leaves in the 27 or 28 night time temps. Interesting since the mother plants all came through without damage. Yes we can do some next year. The thought was my wife talked about Ashland since we‘all had shots and we would be passing through.


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## wood1954 (May 22, 2021)

Sounds good, if you’re near Waupaca sometime stop in


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