# Should I trim?



## Larryh86GT (Mar 9, 2010)

It's difficult to see the vines but these 2 Marquis grapes were planted 2 years ago. I would like to train them to grow on the trellis wires (4 strand) that are 7 foot above the ground. I have not done any prunning yet. Should I remove branches/runners at this point or continue to let them reach the wires? They did have 4 or 5 bunches of grapes last year that were excellent eating grapes.
Larry


----------



## Sacalait (Mar 9, 2010)

Were they mine, I'd trim and maintain a single stalk and then train the vines onto the wire.


----------



## AlFulchino (Mar 9, 2010)

first year you let them bush up...keep them off the ground...this will establish the roots...second year prune to four or five good buds if winter was kind of severe....if not then you can go to 2-3 good buds....then take the best 1-2 shoots and train up your wire or post for that trellis...be careful of wind early on during the second yr..it will snap the canes before they lignify

remember that your fruit comes from last yrs wood...so year in and year out prune accordingly...ie leave a new cane each year for your fruiting area


----------



## Sacalait (Mar 9, 2010)

Al, thanks for helping here. As you can see by my avatar I grow muscadines and was advising along those lines.


----------



## AlFulchino (Mar 9, 2010)

no problemo...i must say that i dont know much about muscadines but hear good things about them


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 10, 2010)

AlFulchino said:


> second year prune to four or five good buds if winter was kind of severe....if not then you can go to 2-3 good buds....then take the best 1-2 shoots



It still sounds complicated, but then the instructions for pruning my raspberries did not make any sense until the vines grew and I saw what was happening.

I have read up on pruning grapes but really did not understand it. So let me see if I have this correct: Just keep 1 or 2 shoots or canes, prune both of them back to only 4 or 5 buds showing? Is tying the vines up from the wires to help support them ok? The canes not wanted just cut back to the trunk?


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 20, 2010)

Pruned away today. Thanks for the help everyone.


----------



## djrockinsteve (Mar 20, 2010)

Larry, same for me. Three years ago I planted 5 vines on the far side of my new deck. I trimmed them back to let the trunk grow. It has thicked nicely and last year we got just a few grapes. They were delicioue. Hoping to get more this year as I let the vines grow.

Finally my 3 apple trees are starting to give some nice fruit.


----------



## Midwest Vintner (Mar 20, 2010)

i'm glad we have a few established vines on our property. just gotta keep the dang birds off them!


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 21, 2010)

I don't grasp the nuts and bolts of pruning grapes yet but I'll figure it out at some point. I have 3 apple trees also. I planted my Golden Delicious tree over 20 years ago and it is producing nice tasting apples but I am having a problem with Codling Moths that I am going to have to do battle with so I can have apples without worm holes. I am finding the best producer of fruit in my yard is my red raspberries. The row I planted 2 years ago gave me 15 pounds or so to freeze last year which went into my first 4 one gallon batches of wine this year. I have a row of blueberries that I have had for 4 years that are very disappointing and I am going to pull them out and make the row into raspberries also. I really like their wine making capabilities.
Larry


----------



## medicman427 (Mar 21, 2010)

*To Prune or not to Prune that is the question*

I would attah a wire half way up spme where around the 3 ft mark, selecct your best cane and attach itto the middle line to train it vertical and remove the other canes. When it reaches the top cut to top off forcing lateral shoots to form. While you are pruning may I suggest that you takea 18in cutting with several nodes atleast three, cutting about 1 inch below the bottom node and place them in some water in a warm window and root you some more vines. I have rooted about thirty vines this year off my 4 vines.
Good Luck


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 21, 2010)

Do the canes being removed get cut flush with the trunk of the vine?


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 23, 2010)

A little help for the vinyard idiot here please. I read 2 or 3 more PDF's today that didn't help. Some say leave 2 or 3 buds when cutting the canes to form spurs. Some say it depends on the variety of grape. Nothing I search for has said if Marquis grapes are cane or spur pruned. The spurs are used to form lateral canes or fruit? I'm guessing I want to cut the canes back to the trunk just leaving 1 or 2 canes until it hits the 7' wires then cut the cane for laterals. Come on, don't make me teary eyed here folks, I really am trying to grasp the concept and I think I am almost there. Come on just a little more. 
Larry (aka the vineyard idiot) ((but willing to learn)) (((then I can put this thread to rest))) ((((and hopefully someone else can be guided by your wisdom in the far dark distant future))))


----------



## Racer (Mar 23, 2010)

I don't know if Marquis is supposed to be cane or spur pruned. Grapes bear fruit on one year old wood only. So from the growth you had last year buds on that part of the vine will be the ones that will have clusters grow on them this year for you. I hope this helps you a little for future years for you. 

Since you are trying to establish the vines you need to cut back last years canes(shoots) to 2 buds if they 1. Didnt grow to the trellis wire you want your cordons to grow on AND 2. They also need to be the size of a # 2 pencil at that point also. If they didn't have good growth last year (which most new vines wont) prune back to 2 buds on 1 or 2 of the strongest and straightest shoots from last year. Make the cuts half way between buds so the bud you want doesnt dry out and die off. 

If you need a picture let me know and I'll try and get one tomorrow for you.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 24, 2010)

A picture would help. The tallest canes are still about 1 foot or so from the overhead wires now. Thanks.


----------



## AlFulchino (Mar 24, 2010)

i have not read the whole thread..so forgive f this has been said....try to shoot for a set of buds a few inches below the cordon wire....this way you can make a y shape versus a 90 degree cordon off of the trunk.....a y shape is stronger than a 90 degree joint.....and looks better as well.....now its true that this is not always possible...but something to shoot for


----------



## Racer (Mar 24, 2010)

Here's a few pictures of a vine that didn't make it to pencil thickness last year. So I counted 2 buds up from the point were last years growth started from and pruned off the rest of the upper growth that was too small.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 25, 2010)

I took these pics this morning of my 2 vines. I put a piece of cardboard behind them so the vine could be seen better. The 2 pics with the red lines are where I think I should be pruning these until they get to the wires above? Just leaving each with 2 canes. Yes-no?
Last year I had a mildew problem in which the tips of the canes mildewed, turned black and died. Then a new shoot would continue heading upward. I am prepared to treat the mildew problem now.
Thanks
Larry


----------



## Racer (Mar 25, 2010)

From what your showing I'd agree with you and prune were you have it marked. The only question I'll ask though is the shoot on the right is it as big around as a pencil at the point were it meets up with your trellis wire? If not prune it back to 2 buds too.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 25, 2010)

Racer said:


> is the shoot on the right is it as big around as a pencil at the point were it meets up with your trellis wire? If not prune it back to 2 buds too.



What happens or doesn't happen if the cane is smaller than a pencil? And won't trimming back to 2 buds take it almost back to the trunk? It seems at this rate the vine will never get to the wires.


----------



## Racer (Mar 26, 2010)

When establishing vines to begin with keep this schedule in mind. The first year is for the roots (let the vines grow as much green as it can to help it grow a good root system). Year 2 prune the vine back to 2 buds on 1 or 2 of the strongest shoots. The stored energy in the root system will usually make for very strong growth during this year so you can get them on to the cordon wire with a nice size to them. If you have good growth going into year 3 you can prune back to just under the cordon wire. That way the buds at the top still have to grow up slightly to get to the cordon wire. The vine will look like a "Y" then and its alot easier to train the shoot growth onto the cordon wire with out breaking the shoots. Year 4 should be were you can just shoot thin (if needed) and you can finally take a crop from the vines.

Since you had a problem with disease pressures killing off the growing tips on you last year you had thinner growth on your shoots. Too much energy got used up trying to re-grow the shoot tips and get leaves back on the vine. If you can find a point on the shoots from last years growth that did reach the size of a pencil go ahead and prune back to that point if you want to. Just don't use a smaller size to settle with. Doing so will put you into a smaller,weaker,and slower growing vine.


----------



## AlFulchino (Mar 26, 2010)

i am going to add in a suggestion for the vines in that picture w the cardboard behind it......clean up all organic debris around the vines...and remove...also spray that fence w a bleach solution to kill anything on it.....you dont want it to be a source for *anything*....


----------



## grapeman (Mar 26, 2010)

Normally one of the first things I would do with the vine is to put in two bamboo poles about 6 inches apart and attach your two canes you are leaving to them-one on each. That will form you two trunks. The vine you are growing however is Marquis- a white seedless table grape that grows best utilizing cane pruning. For that type grape and pruning,I would prune it to a fan shaped cane pruned vine. For that you use about a foot to a foot and a half and head there normally. That allows a number of shoots to grow that year, which become the fruiting canes you leave next year. You prune back to 3-5 canes from those and leave some spurs at the head. Those form canes that year and don't fruit- they become the fruiting canes for the following year. Anyway, those 3-5 canes get left about 3-4 feet long and will send out fruiting shoots along their lengths. Using this system, my four year Marquis produce about 20 pounds of seedless white grapes with some clusters weighing close to a pound apiece.

For most regular wine grapes the way the guys are talking works great. I thought I posted here a few days ago, but must be I got distracted and never hit the post reply button!

Good luck with the vines. Marquis are really delicious, but tend to be thin skinned so they can split a bit, so keep an eye out for that.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 26, 2010)

Racer - Thanks for all the info and advise. I think I'm ready to prune now.

AlFulchino -Good to know about the debris. I'll clean it up. Thanks.

grapeman - Thanks for the specific Marquis info. There is not a lot of information on Marquis grapes out there. The vines had a few small bunches last year and we were impressed with how sweet and good they were. Morrisonville is way up there in NY. I have spent a lot of time in Schroon Lake over the past 50 years. Beautiful area. Lots of history.
Larry


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 27, 2010)

Nice and sunny day here so I got the pruners out and cut them back. Boy they sure have a lot further to go to get to the overhead wires now. Will this work?


----------



## Racer (Mar 27, 2010)

I'd say your good to go until budbreak now. Have you been reading up on IPM for this up coming season? Here's the midwest grape production were you can learn about the disease's and what to use on them to keep them under control. 


Here's the midwest small fruit spray guide too.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Mar 27, 2010)

Thanks. I wasn't overly sure about leaving the 3rd cane on the 1 vine. So far in preparing for the mildew problem I have gotten Liquid Copper Fungicide and Captan.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Apr 14, 2010)

medicman427 said:


> I would attah a wire half way up spme where around the 3 ft mark, selecct your best cane and attach itto the middle line to train it vertical and remove the other canes. When it reaches the top cut to top off forcing lateral shoots to form. While you are pruning may I suggest that you takea 18in cutting with several nodes atleast three, cutting about 1 inch below the bottom node and place them in some water in a warm window and root you some more vines. I have rooted about thirty vines this year off my 4 vines.
> Good Luck



I followed your advise and stuck the cuttings in water. While my vines are only just starting to hint at bud break these cuttings are growing.
Larry


----------



## grapeman (Apr 14, 2010)

I hope I am wrong, but I believe those cuttings will die in a while. Chances are they did not callous before you put them in the water, in which case they likely won't root. * Soon the tops will grow using water faster than the stems can take it in and the vines will turn yellow, then brown wilt and die. What the other poster probably did was take green cuttings while the shoot was actively growing. It is possible to root them, but most will not root like you did it. Next time, place them in a moist newspaper, wrap up in a plastic bag and place in a warm location (about 85) for a couple weeks and then place in a rooting mix. That forms callouses which then differntiate the cells into root structure.

Saying that, I hope all of your cuttings grow. Good luck.

*(99 out of 100 growers that try it like you are get excited to see the green growth only to get heaqrtbroken when they die because of no root formation)


----------



## Larryh86GT (Apr 15, 2010)

I know you're right but it was fun to watch the buds break and grow so rapidly on these twigs. I'll try this again this summer with green cuttings.
Larry


----------



## Drunken Midget (Apr 20, 2010)

good start..... http://www.isons.com/pdf/developing_pruning_muscadine_vine.pdf


----------



## Larryh86GT (Apr 20, 2010)

Drunken Midget said:


> good start..... http://www.isons.com/pdf/developing_pruning_muscadine_vine.pdf



That's a nice descriptive & easy to follow pdf.
Thank you DM.
Larry


----------



## Larryh86GT (May 8, 2010)

*I'm still puzzeled*

After pruning back to 2 canes there are now many new canes/buds growing off my 3 year old Marquis grapes. Should I give up on my idea of getting these vines up to the 7 foot high wires? I can remove the T the 4 wires are on and just rerun the wires between the upright posts. Then I can train the new canes to the lowered wires. 

Larry


----------



## AlFulchino (May 8, 2010)

assuming you are past frost and can afford to not have the need for replacement buds..take your top best buds and let them run up that trellis...if this is their fourth leaf the should already have a strong enough root system to let some canes go 12-16 feet in one yr


----------



## Larryh86GT (May 27, 2010)

The vine is growing rapidly now. I did remove the top T wires and changed it to running 3 wires between the posts. Now to get it trained to the wires. 

Larry


----------



## grapeman (May 27, 2010)

It looks to me like you are trying to train that Marquis vine into Vertical Shoot Positioning. That may work out for you, but in my experience growing Marquis, a fan shaped cane pruned vine works much better. That is what I was trying to get you to go to earlier this year. You may get a few clusters if you leave them this year, but the vines become much less fruitful and overgrown in future years. They stay much more productive using the replacement canes every year. Any way you go, I wish you great luck with the vines, they are a great tasting grape especially for seedless.

PS- how are the cuttings doing- I hope they grew and proved me wrong.


----------



## Larryh86GT (May 27, 2010)

Hey, I appreciate your input. Obviously I haven't grasped the best method yet. 

Could you post a picture of your Marquis vine? That may help me. It's not too late to reposition the shoots.

You were spot on with the cuttings. They stayed green a long time but no roots developed. I tossed them earlier this week.

Larry


----------



## grapeman (May 27, 2010)

I will try to remember when I have the camera out in the vineyard again. I left more than normal this year as insurance. We had a very cold winter last year (2008-2009) and got fewer and larger canes than normal, which can lead to lower cold tolerance. As a result, the canes are left longer to allow for possible increased bud damage from this past winter- (2009-2010). I will adjust them after I see how many buds grew.


----------



## Larryh86GT (May 27, 2010)

That would be great Richard. To be honest right now I don't know what 
a fan shaped cane pruned vine would be.

Larry


----------



## grapeman (May 27, 2010)

Check this link out- quicker than me drawing something and getting in the computer.
http://www.jlgardencenter.com/uploads/handouts/Pruning%20Grapes.pdf

look at the bottom of the page.


----------



## Larryh86GT (May 27, 2010)

Thanks for that link. I printed and will use it. Tomorrow morning I will release the tied side canes and arrange them in the fan shape. Just curious, what happens to a cane when it reaches the top wire? Gets cut off? or trained sidewards? Hopefully as I see the grapes grow and produce I will understand them more.


----------



## grapeman (May 27, 2010)

The canes are pruned to length in the dormant season (winter/spring). Each node (bud) on them develops a new shoot next year and you get a cluster or two on each one. That's why you thin the canes to 3 - 5 per vine, so you end up with about 50 shoots next year. Each year you develop new canes, prune them and so on. It sounds complicated but it isn't really.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Jun 7, 2010)

I have started the vines in a fan shape now. They are looking pretty good I think.


----------



## grapeman (Jun 7, 2010)

Do you have any grape clusters or will you have to wait until next year again?

That structure will give you more canes yet allow for a semi open canopy for that seedless variety.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Jun 7, 2010)

There are lots of grape clusters this year. I would guess 20+ on each vine.


----------



## Larryh86GT (Aug 17, 2010)

These are my 2 vines now. They have done well this year. Each vine has about 6 canes about 6-8' in length. Thin each vine back to maybe the 5 strongest canes this winter? Leave the canes at the length they are at?


----------



## grapeman (Aug 17, 2010)

They are looking pretty good now. Yes thin back to 4 or 5 canes at pruning and take them back some leaving maybe 4-5 feet each. Each node will grow a shoot the length of them next year and have about 2 clusters each, so I usually rub off the lower buds on each for probably the first two feet of length. That leaves about the right amount of shoots growing for a good crop.


----------



## Wade E (Aug 17, 2010)

Looking good there larry and thanks Rich for all the help with the vineyard posts!


----------



## Larryh86GT (Aug 17, 2010)

Yes, thank you Richard. I may finally have this figured out with all your help. It was one of those you have to see it to understand it.


----------



## countrygirl (Aug 17, 2010)

looking good larry...hopefully i'll be asking the same questions in a year


----------



## montveil (Sep 8, 2010)

If your vines are very vigorous like my Foch you may want to consider a high wire cordon, Single or double stem to the high wire and a cordon going our in each direction. 
If a single stem is used divide into two cordons, If 2 stems are used train each to a single cordon 
I found that if I used two wires ~3 & 6 feet the lower clusters were in the shade and leaf removal really tore up the plant. With the high wire single cordon the grapes are carried high and are exposed to drying breezes, leaf removal is easier and spray coverage is better.
Just some thoughts you may want to consider


----------



## grapeman (Sep 8, 2010)

Normally for a high vigor vine that works great monveil, but he is working with Marquis which is a seedless variety and needs to be handled differntly.


----------

