# Making a Port style wine from a Standard Wine Kit



## ou8amaus (Mar 4, 2015)

Recently I tried tweaking a lower end kit by reducing the water added, and making it to 5 gallon instead of 6 gallon. Along with a homemade frozen grape pack, extra tannin and extra oak... Overall I was pleased with the result (needs a little more aging time). I have also made a couple of Port style wines from kits this year and have been intrigued… Now my brain is telling me to try and make a port style wine using a standard kit and making it to only 3 gallons. My brain is most oftentimes wrong, but it is in charge and all I can do is try and channel its rogue ideas. 
I am sure this is not a new concept, but I could not find any other threads which provided reviews on results. So my thinking is that if I take a kit which is supposed to make 6 gallons of 12% red wine, and ferment it to 3 gallons, that the EC1118 will give up the ghost somewhere near 20%, leaving the balance of the sugar to sweeten. I know most of the port threads here center on stopping fermentation by adding alcohol, but here in Canada the prices are outrageous so I must do without.

My thinking is that I will probably need to step feed it more nutrients somewhere along the way as I will be stressing out the poor yeast to its maximum tolerances, and although I am aiming at 3 gallons will the residual sugar remaining after the yeast die make this too sweet? I realize this is an experiment, my expectation are low and I am prepared to fail miserably, but I would like to plan for at least limited success and be pleasantly surprised.

There are many experienced port makers here so I would love your feedback regarding this concept, and any input/suggestions you may have. Thanks!


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 4, 2015)

I also made a kit wine and turned into a port like wine by eliminating a gallon of water 

Came out good


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## ou8amaus (Mar 4, 2015)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I also made a kit wine and turned into a port like wine by not eliminate a gallon of water
> 
> Came out good



Good to hear! Did you fortify with alcohol or leave the fermented % as is?


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## wineforfun (Mar 4, 2015)

Check out this thread, it might be of interest to you for an inexpensive port(though it does require alcohol).
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f137/dragon-port-44437/ 

Mine turned out really good, now that I have let it sit for 8 months. 22% ABV it finished at.


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## ou8amaus (Mar 4, 2015)

wineforfun said:


> Check out this thread, it might be of interest to you for an inexpensive port(though it does require alcohol).
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f137/dragon-port-44437/
> 
> Mine turned out really good, now that I have let it sit for 8 months. 22% ABV it finished at.



Thanks for the link! Grape minds think alike... I just printed out the recipe this morning for the DB Port. That one is definitely on my to-do list, but I wanted to try a grape version first.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 4, 2015)

I can think of a potential problem with your approach. If you dilute your kit to only 3 gallons, then Fermcalc tells me that your starting SG will be 1.170, or 38 Brix. Yes, this amount of sugar would give you in excess of 20% ABV, as you desire, _provided the yeast can ferment it_ up to their alcohol tolerance.

But it is not just the back end of the fermentation you need worry about. The yeast must also be able to prosper in the initial stages. Too high a sugar level up front will cause "osmotic stress," which is a fancy way of saying that the yeast cannot live in such a sugary solution. (This is why honey does not spoil, for example.)

I cannot find a good reference for how many Brix the yeast can tolerate. But this gives you something to google for, or perhaps someone on here knows.

If you are starting from a "normal" SG, you could step feed with sugar. This allows you to get the yeast going, and then feed them more as you go, without ever exposing them to osmotic stress.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 4, 2015)

I let it ferment out naturally 
No alachol added to this one


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## ou8amaus (Mar 4, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> this amount of sugar would give you in excess of 20% ABV, as you desire, _provided the yeast can ferment it_ up to their alcohol tolerance.
> 
> Too high a sugar level up front will cause "osmotic stress," which is a fancy way of saying that the yeast cannot live in such a sugary solution. .



That is awesome information, thanks! That could have tanked the project from the get go... So to mitigate the potential of osmotic stress, I will change the starting ratio and hold back some of the kit concentrate. I will keep the starting SG to about 1.120. Then once fermentation is well under way I will step feed the balance of the concentrate. Once the yeast hits its tolerance levels I am hoping the sugar level remaining will be in the range of what port should be. This will be a gamble.

What is the normal range of SG for port once completed?


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## sour_grapes (Mar 4, 2015)

ou8amaus said:


> That is awesome information, thanks! That could have tanked the project from the get go... So to mitigate the potential of osmotic stress, I will change the starting ratio and hold back some of the kit concentrate. I will keep the starting SG to about 1.120. Then once fermentation is well under way I will step feed the balance of the concentrate. Once the yeast hits its tolerance levels I am hoping the sugar level remaining will be in the range of what port should be. This will be a gamble.



Yes, of course, that should work.  I did not think of that solution (no pun intended).



> What is the normal range of SG for port once completed?



I am not a great deal of help, but I wound up at 1.010. I did the following: I fermented a regular wine (~13% ABV) to dry (SG=0.994). Then I sweetened it to 1.030. Only then did I add the brandy, and this took the ABV to 20% and the SG down to 1.010.


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## ou8amaus (Mar 5, 2015)

OK thanks! 
My math is probably off here, but if I start with 24% Potential ABV (1.155 SG), and the yeast quits around 18% (1.072 SG), then I will be left with 6% worth of unfermented sugar. No sure how to translate these numbers into an expected final SG?


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## sour_grapes (Mar 5, 2015)

To a very good approximation, ABV=131*(Initial SG - Final SG)

So, fermenting to 18% would "consume" about 18/131 = 0.137 of your initial SG. In your case, that would bring the SG down to about (1.155 - 0.137) = 1.018.


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## ou8amaus (Mar 5, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> bring the SG down to about...1.018.



Once again I am in your debt, thanks! 
1.018 might potentially be a little too sweet, but only tasting will tell.

So, if there are no other immediate red flags... lets get this going!


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## marino (May 2, 2015)

I think my Porto Corinto started at 1.150 and it got all the way to 1.010


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## JimmyT (May 25, 2015)

ou8amaus said:


> Once again I am in your debt, thanks!
> 
> 1.018 might potentially be a little too sweet, but only tasting will tell.
> 
> ...




So how did this turn out?


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## ou8amaus (May 25, 2015)

Grrr . Kit was delivered and it had sprung a leak. Small leak but I was not willing to risk it. Had to return it. Took a few weeks to get a replacement, by which time the available Carboy had demanded I fill it with something else. So plan is still in place, just need to free up a 3 gallon carboy this week! I will post an update!


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## richmke (May 26, 2015)

IMHO, you might as well start with a port kit.


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## wineinmd (May 26, 2015)

richmke said:


> IMHO, you might as well start with a port kit.


The first post made it sound like he did.


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## richmke (May 26, 2015)

wineinmd said:


> The first post made it sound like he did.



I missed that.

My thoughts on the original post:

1) In order to mix a 6 gallon kit to 3 gallons, you need to start with a cheap kit. Most expensive kits start at 4+ gallons.

2) If you mix to 1.160 SG and can ferment down to 1.020 SG, you end up with about 1.020 SG, which is the sweetness I like. I think most port kits end up around 1.030 SG, so you can start around 1.165. That will give you 18% ABV, or the limit of EC-1118

3) If you start with a kit that is intended to start at 1.090 SG, you would need to dilute it to 3.375 gallons to have an SG of 1.160. 

4) I've thought about doing the following:

a) Mix a high-end kit to 6 gallons
b) Remove 2 gallons 
c) Ferment 
d) Chapitalize to 18% abv
e) When fermentation is complete, add back the reserved juice.
f) Let that ferment to completion

That should give you about 1.02 SG at 18% ABV. then you can fortify to 20% ABV.


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## ou8amaus (Jun 1, 2015)

Agreed, a higher end kit will definitely provide better results. At this time I want to try it on a cheaper kit just to get the process down and see what the results are.

Thanks for the calculations! I plan on doing a little on the fly mixing/measuring/adding but it is reassuring to have numbers to aim for.

I like your plan of action, and I may very well end up pouring this down the drain and following in your steps... But for this attempt I started with a basic idea of not using any extra sugar except for what comes in the kit (which makes it necessary to use a low-middle range highly concentrated kit), and not using any alcohol to bump up the final ABV (which will limit this experiment t 18%). 

Hopefully I can empty some carboys by next weekend and get this going!


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## CGish (Oct 8, 2015)

ou8amaus said:


> Agreed, a higher end kit will definitely provide better results. At this time I want to try it on a cheaper kit just to get the process down and see what the results are.
> 
> Thanks for the calculations! I plan on doing a little on the fly mixing/measuring/adding but it is reassuring to have numbers to aim for.
> 
> ...



How is this experiment going?


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## ou8amaus (Oct 8, 2015)

I am embarrassed to admit that I have been putting off that particular experiment all summer long. Thank you for the follow up, it has made me reevaluate my schedule! Next week this goes into action. If you have not seen a post from me in one week please shame me mercilessly!


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## drhughes (Nov 15, 2015)

*Shame, shame, shame!*

  Well, you asked for it! I'm curious, and want to see how it turns out!


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## ou8amaus (Nov 16, 2015)

drhughes said:


> Well, you asked for it! I'm curious, and want to see how it turns out!



Thank you for being the cattle-prod that I obviously needed! Hockey season is starting to impact my wine making...

So tonight I began the experiment... I am using a low end Paklab 7 liter Shiraz kit. I am looking for an eventual final volume of 12 liters and an ABV of 18%.

Having 7 liters of concentrate, I need 5 liters of water to make the final total of 12. I started with 5 liters of water to which I added bentonite and 2.5 liters of the kit concentrate. This gave me a starting SG of about 1.085 at 21C. I pitched 1 packet of EC1118 and loosely covered the primary. 

My plan is to ferment down to about 1.05 before adding another 2/2.5 liters of Concentrate along with yeast nutrient. I will measure the SG again at that point and wait until it goes down again to about 1.05. At that point I will add the remaining concentrate (potentially at 2 intervals depending on how ferment is progressing) and let the yeast work until it gives up the ghost. I have an extra EC-1118 that I may add partway through the experiment. Thanks for following!


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## ou8amaus (Nov 18, 2015)

After 24 hours I noticed some evidence of fermentation, and today (48 hours) it is bubbling away nicely. I was a little surprise that the SG had already dropped to 1.026, that is a quick drop considering I just dropped the dry yeast in 48 hours ago! So far we have coaxed out 7.74% ABV... (Ambient temperature is pretty consistent at 21 Deg C.)

Step 2 initiated. I have added another 2.5 liters of the concentrate to the bucket. This has brought the SG to about 1.086. I have also added about 1/4 tsp of yeast energizer, and 1/2 tsp of yeast nutrient. Gave it a good stir and loosely covered it up. Not adding the extra pack of yeast yet, going to wait 24 hours to confirm ferment is continuing.


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## drhughes (Nov 19, 2015)

Interesting -- I know it will be awhile, but I can't wait to hear how it turns out. Thanks for the update!


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## ou8amaus (Nov 19, 2015)

Day 4, Really want to get motivate by the process but Habs are losing and I am depressed...

Still I have work to do. SG from yesterdays 1.086 now down to 1.044. It is fuzzing along nicely. This adds another 5.51% alcohol, so we are a little over 13% so far.

Added 1 more liter of the concentrate bring Sg to 1.065. This mix should already not ferment dry as collectively it adds up to more that 18%. Numbers ARE NOT my friends so maybe I am off... But I think I will monitor for a few days and see how things are going.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 19, 2015)

ou8amaus said:


> Still I have work to do. SG from yesterdays 1.086 now down to 1.044. It is fuzzing along nicely. This adds another 5.51% alcohol, so we are a little over 13% so far.
> 
> Added 1 more liter of the concentrate bring Sg to 1.065. This mix should already not ferment dry as collectively it adds up to more that 18%. Numbers ARE NOT my friends so maybe I am off... But I think I will monitor for a few days and see how things are going.



I don't know if you are taking this into account or not, but remember that when you add concentrate to increase the sugar, you are also adding _volume_. So when you add that volume, your ABV goes down.

Seth Langford did a write up on this. I could find two versions of it. One here:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32839
and another here:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/step-feeding-calculator.html

Unfortunately, they are both a little corrupted, with graphics having gone missing, but I think there is enough information there to get the gist of it. (He uses a SG-to-ABV conversion factor of 125, but I would use the one that you used above, viz., 131.)


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## ou8amaus (Nov 20, 2015)

sour_grapes said:


> I don't know if you are taking this into account or not, but remember that when you add concentrate to increase the sugar, you are also adding _volume_. So when you add that volume, your ABV goes down.



No I had not compensated for volume increasing! The thought process that goes through Seths' calculation is slightly beyond me, but I can follow the logic mostly. If I boil it down to the final formula and enter the data I have so far (substituting 133 for 125, and using liters instead of gallons)

125{[OG1-FG1]*vol1+[OG2-FG2]*Vol2+[OG3-FG3]*vol3......}/Total Volume=ABV

133{[1.085-1.026]*7.5+[1.086-1.044]*10}/10=11.47 ABV

So if I have the numbers right I have a little less alcohol than I thought so far...?


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## sour_grapes (Nov 20, 2015)

ou8amaus said:


> No I had not compensated for volume increasing! The thought process that goes through Seths' calculation is slightly beyond me, but I can follow the logic mostly. If I boil it down to the final formula and enter the data I have so far (substituting 133 for 125, and using liters instead of gallons)
> 
> 125{[OG1-FG1]*vol1+[OG2-FG2]*Vol2+[OG3-FG3]*vol3......}/Total Volume=ABV
> 
> ...



Yes, I think you understand it correctly, and, yes, of course this means that your ABV will be a little lower than the former (naive) method of calculating would indicate.


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## ou8amaus (Nov 20, 2015)

Day 5. 
SG is back down to 1.046
by my old calculations this would add 2.5% alc, bringing total to 15.75

But being the highly evolved creatures we are, we will also look at the weighted calculation:
133{[1.085-1.026]*7.5+[1.086-1.044]*10+[1.065-1.046]*11}/11= 12.96%

Well the spread between the two calculations is interesting. No racking or additions tonight, just a stir and let it go. Still have 1 liter of concentrate left but I want to be sure the yeast still has fight in it... It is still fizzing slightly but seems to be slowing, but just a little. Still nowhere near the potential this yeast can reach theoretically. Considering more energizer and nutrient addition but I am hesitant. Any opinions?


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## ou8amaus (Nov 21, 2015)

We are only down to 1.038 today... Ferment is definitely slowing down. My calculations bring this to 14%... Should still be going strong... I made a starter out of another ec1118 and pitched it along with another quarter teaspoon fermaid. Not adding any more of the concentrate until sg get close to 1.02... IF it does. Still bubbling lightly...


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## ou8amaus (Nov 22, 2015)

Day 7, the addition of the extra yeast and the fermaid has not made a huge difference yet. Still lightly fizzing, and although ferment has slowed, it is at least still ongoing. SG today is 1.030. Still holding back the 1 liter of concentrate I have left. Took a little taste: very sweet, not surprisingly yeasty, but a little tart on the finish.


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## sour_grapes (Nov 22, 2015)

Good to hear it is still moving! C'mon, yeast, get 'r done!


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## ou8amaus (Nov 23, 2015)

Well the yeasties are still trying! Down to 1.022 today. I have still not added any further concentrate... I need to see this get closer to 1.000 before I add any more.

Numbers wise things are getting interesting. Based on my original methodology the SG of 1.022 would mean an additional increase of 5.64... add this to the original 7.74%, and the 5.51%, and we get 18.89%... which is impossible. I love it when the math proves me wrong.

So we go with the weighted method only from now on, 
133{[1.085-1.026]*7.5+[1.086-1.044]*10+[1.065-1.022]*11}/11= 16.17%

So this is a more realistic number! But we are really getting close to the 18% threshold of this yeast, and I am getting concerned with getting to the finish line. I am holding off any more yeast energizer or nutrient because I remember someone mentioning you should not add it towards the end of ferment. However the ambient temperature has dropped from 20C to about 18C in the last 24 hours, so I will put on a heat belt to keep everything rolling.

One way or another I think tomorrow will be decision time regarding the last liter of concentrate. Go Yeasties Go!


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## sour_grapes (Nov 24, 2015)

I cannot recall: how sweet a final product are you aiming for? By my lights, if the present version were to finish to dry (well, to 1.000), you would be at 18.78% We both doubt that will happen, so you should wind up with some residual sugar, even before adding any more concentrate.

Of course, you could consider adding the last liter of concentrate AND enough water to lower the ABV to less than yeast toxicity levels....


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## ou8amaus (Nov 24, 2015)

I started this experiment aiming for this to ferment dry at 18%, and then have exactly enough concentrate to back sweeten to 1.01-1.02. 

Presently I am just hoping it gets to 18%... and with 1 liter of concentrate left I think I will have some of it left over after sweetening.


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## ou8amaus (Nov 24, 2015)

Still chugging away... slowly! Down to 1.015, giving me a total of 17.08%. If I can get it below 1.01 then I figure we have pretty much maxed out the yeast. Still fizzing a little. Taste is really good, considering it has not been racked or clarified yet. Going to hold off judging that for a bit. Going to give it another 24 hours and then rack into a carboy and let it relax there for a while.


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## ou8amaus (Nov 25, 2015)

I was considering adding some oak to the carboy tonight when I rack. Considering how much body this experiment has I figure it can deal with a lot of oak, but not sure if that fits the flavor profile...
Heavy toast would bring some nice vanilla, while the light toast might have add more agreeable delicate touch.
I have made a few kit ports in the past, mostly with added fruit flavor, but I lack experienced in this area... 
Question: Anyone with an opinion on the subject?


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## ou8amaus (Nov 26, 2015)

Last night we were down to 1.012
Racked to carboy.
Added 1/2 liter of the remaining 1 liter of concentrate bringing SG to 1.022
Added about 2/3 cup of light toasted oak.
Going to let it be for a week or so...


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## jgmann67 (Nov 28, 2015)

This is a great spectator thread for me. Keep the posts coming.

I noticed that your kit says it will make 60 - 750 ml bottles. Is that a 12 gallon kit??


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## ou8amaus (Nov 29, 2015)

Thanks for following! It is a double kit... 2x 7 liter bags to make 2 batches of 30 bottles. First bag I made normally, this thread is following the second bags evolution into something (hopefully) better.


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## jgmann67 (Nov 30, 2015)

ou8amaus said:


> Thanks for following! It is a double kit... 2x 7 liter bags to make 2 batches of 30 bottles. First bag I made normally, this thread is following the second bags evolution into something (hopefully) better.




Didn't know they made such a thing. That's cool.


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## ou8amaus (Nov 30, 2015)

Costco sells something similar under the Argentia Ridge Chateau brand.


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## yanks4carolyn (Dec 25, 2015)

You had me.....up until Seths calculations. Oo! It is a very interesting piece of work you are doing. I will stay tuned and keep my fingers crossed that it turns out awesome.....cause you sure deserve it!


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## Bent-Brewer (Jan 15, 2016)

Glad I saw this thread! I was just thinking of doing the same thing with a Spanish Tempranillo kit. Looking forward to hearing about the results when you finally get the chance to open a bottle!

If only we had time machines... Homebrewing would be so much easier.


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## ou8amaus (Jan 15, 2016)

So far I have just been letting it sit in the carboy. In the coming weeks I will be racking it off any sediment and the oak I added. I am omitting any sorbate additions as I believe them to be unnecessary in this case, but will be adding some Kmeta. Then I will be topping up with a combination of either more concentrate (I kept the leftover frozen) to sweeten, or another wine to dry it out. I am still a little unfamiliar with how sweet a port should be, but seems to be a final SG of about 1.02 to 1.03 is the norm. Once I have hit the "sweet spot" I will be aging it for 6-12 months before bottling. I am looking forward to tasting in the coming weeks!


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## ou8amaus (Jan 29, 2016)

Racked the port last night into 3x Gallon jugs as I need the carboy free to start another port kit. Took a sampling. My expectations were low to begin with so while I am pleased with the results so far, I am not overwhelmed. Looks are dark crimson and thick (viscous), nose is rich with heavy body, loads of red berries, strong alcohol, and unfortunately strong KT. Taste is actually OK, well balanced, quite hot at this stage... but with a lot of KT/"Cheap wine" flavours.
Have not added any further of the reserved concentrate as I feel this will only exacerbate the KT/Cheap kit taste. Going to keep ageing it for 6-12 months. Will check in again in a few months with another taste. As I have it now split into 3 gallon jugs I may experiment with various sweetening liquids to try and cover up the KT... Suggestions as always are welcome!


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## ou8amaus (May 11, 2016)

Well, 2.5 months of ageing and time to check in... I am still mostly smelling cheap kit. Kind of overpowers any other smell. Taste on the other hand is really not bad. At least it has about met my low expectations for taste. Heat has dissipated so I am sensing this may balance out nicely. Going to give it more time to mellow. Added heavy oak to one of the gallons to see what it brings to the mix...


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## FTC Wines (May 12, 2016)

Just found this thread. I too started a Spanish Tempranillo Wine Expert, kit on 2/2/16 to make a port out of. Started with SG of 1.112, chaptized it up to 17.5% abv. Letting it age on some oak, will add Brandy & back sweeten down the road. SG is .992 right now. Will keep in touch with results. Thanks for starting this thread, Roy


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## ou8amaus (May 12, 2016)

I would imagine that with a mid-range product like World Vineyard (10-12 liter concentrate?) that you should get a much better end product with less concentrate flavor than the 7 liter I used. Please keep us informed!


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## FTC Wines (May 12, 2016)

Will keep you all informed. It was a 6 gal kit I made to a 5 gal size. I going to split it into a 2 gal batch Of straight Port, fortified with brandy, the 3 gal batch I'm going to back sweeten with a " left over " Black Forest Port " back Sweetening package. Don't ask why I have an extra package, it wasn't pretty! Roy


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## ou8amaus (Nov 1, 2016)

Well it has been almost 6 months since I last chimed in. Decided to rack and take a test to see how things were going. First off the oak was a bad idea. Either I put too much or left it in for too long, but it now tastes like IKEA furniture. I do not think I will blend the oaked portion or age it out, it is really undrinkable (first time I have even said that). The other 2 gallons are ageing nicely. I still find it has quite a bit of KT present, but the taste is very nice. My wife even prefers it to the ports I have made from port kits! Going to bottle this up and let it sit for another few months. Would never give this to a port aficionado, but will do very nicely with desert at the next family gathering.


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## marino (Nov 19, 2016)

But the oak should dissipate. Do you have a small barrel you can rack into? That will help everything settle in


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## E-man (Aug 25, 2019)

How did this port turn out after a couple years of aging and what was your final SG? Thanks


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