# Old Country Wine Makers Question



## Giuseppe (Oct 29, 2010)

For you old country wine makers like me that don't add anything to their wine. Just crush and ferment... how often do you rack?


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## MFC (Oct 29, 2010)

My grandfather made wine like this for years. He would "rack" once after pressing by draining the wine through cheese cloth. Also once before putting the wine to sleep (into the barrels until Easter). Again this time through cheese cloth. That's it. I wouldn't recommend it though. His wine was always excellent and because it was zin the stuff lasted for years, but one bad batch and you ruined your barrels. So unless you need 65 gals of vinegar per year or lots of expensive planters I really think sulfite is the way to go. He even uses it now. If they had known about it years ago I'm sure the would have used it too. It's just not worth risking ruining a whole batch in my opinion.


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## Giuseppe (Oct 29, 2010)

Agreed.... Although I've been doing in now for many years and haunt made a vinegar yet lol I don't use cheese cloth but that's a very interesting method I do it right before I put them in carboys and once before the demijohns... Interesting it's basically the same... "Easter" makes me laugh because thats when I judge time also


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

sounds about cept I'm not able to use barrels as of yet and may not as it seems my wife doesn't care for an oaky taste she strictly thinks the wine should mainly have the taste of what it's made from whether it be grapes or fruit, so I normally rack mine for first pressing naturally of course then I wait a couple months and rack again unless there is a ton of sediment then maybe abit earlier. So far looks like I'm gonna be investing in a good amount of glass LOL


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

so basically you all let it age around 6 to 7 months right??


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## MFC (Oct 29, 2010)

Giuseppe said:


> Agreed.... Although I've been doing in now for many years and haunt made a vinegar yet lol I don't use cheese cloth but that's a very interesting method I do it right before I put them in carboys and once before the demijohns... Interesting it's basically the same... "Easter" makes me laugh because thats when I judge time also



It's basically just a matter of time before the barrel goes bad you have to change them out. About every couple of years (4-5). If your not using barrels and just glass you might have better luck but from tasting the wines that I now make with sulfites and the ones that we used to make they really are better. Not initally but if you plan on kepping the wine for a period over 1 year you will see a rapid decline in unsulfited wines. If you plan on making old school field wine and drink it all before next years vintage like many old timers do you might not have a problem.


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

I've got blackberry thats over 3 almost 4 years old and it keeps getting better as time goes on, of course I may just be lucky on that one


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## MFC (Oct 29, 2010)

Sirs said:


> sounds about cept I'm not able to use barrels as of yet and may not as it seems my wife doesn't care for an oaky taste she strictly thinks the wine should mainly have the taste of what it's made from whether it be grapes or fruit, so I normally rack mine for first pressing naturally of course then I wait a couple months and rack again unless there is a ton of sediment then maybe abit earlier. So far looks like I'm gonna be investing in a good amount of glass LOL



Barrels take a lot of work, and the flies are relentless but it dies make the wine very nice

yea about 7 months maybe a little longer. But now I bottle age for at least 6 months before drinking for zin anyway.


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

LOL up till this year the only thing I aged anything in was a mason jar and it didn't get to much age on it before it was gone


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## MFC (Oct 29, 2010)

I really have no experiance with anything besides grapes. Getting enough fresh fruit for me to make a batch of wine is usally a challenge. Im making my first apple wine this year. Yea one batch of my grandfathers wine was good for ten years but usually 2-3 was the max.


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

well I make mine where it has abit more alcohol than normal so that might help abit


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## Rock (Oct 29, 2010)

MFC said:


> My grandfather made wine like this for years. He would "rack" once after pressing by draining the wine through cheese cloth. Also once before putting the wine to sleep (into the barrels until Easter). Again this time through cheese cloth. That's it. I wouldn't recommend it though. His wine was always excellent and because it was zin the stuff lasted for years, but one bad batch and you ruined your barrels. So unless you need 65 gals of vinegar per year or lots of expensive planters I really think sulfite is the way to go. He even uses it now. If they had known about it years ago I'm sure the would have used it too. It's just not worth risking ruining a whole batch in my opinion.


Funny how all are different ,my father grew up in Italy back in the 40s and they used what i think was campden tablets.He also used them here up untill my brother taught him about k-meta an already crushed sulfite.


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## Rock (Oct 29, 2010)

Hey Giuseppe,you say your old school i guess you rack by the moon,and only on nice sunny days right?Just wondering.


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

hey now doing stuff by the signs is not a bad thing


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## Rock (Oct 29, 2010)

Didnt say it was just asking if it is being done.


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## Sirs (Oct 29, 2010)

understood I just know it works even though alot say it doesn't


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## MFC (Oct 29, 2010)

Rock said:


> Funny how all are different ,my father grew up in Italy back in the 40s and they used what i think was campden tablets.He also used them here up untill my brother taught him about k-meta an already crushed sulfite.



He told me that they never heard of the stuff or used additives. I'm guessing bc info was not as easy to come by as it is these days. Now that we know we use it. I didn't even think that the use of sulfites went back that far. Shows how much I know.


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## Wade E (Oct 29, 2010)

I have a friend who also didnt use sulfites until about 4 years ago when he ended up with 110 gallons of vinegar. I must say the vinegar was pretty good though!


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## Giuseppe (Oct 30, 2010)

I use glass carboys and demijohns. Haven't had a single bad batch and I love the way it tastes. I press is OCT. Enjoy starting Easter and I'm lucky if that gets me to the following Easter. I don't age for more than that. Hey if your happy doing it your way and adding the chem. GREAT! I enjoy doing it this way. I think I'm going to try a few buckets of frozen grapes and add all the goodies it comes with. 
Thanks for the tips


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## Giuseppe (Oct 30, 2010)

Rock said:


> Hey Giuseppe,you say your old school i guess you rack by the moon,and only on nice sunny days right?Just wondering.



Not quite LOL I said I brew my wine the old country way, following my grandfathers recipe and how his father was taught aging goes by seasons and holidays Crush in early to mid OCT. Rack when needed and enjoy on Easter. I apologize If I misinterpreted the meaning of your reply but it sounds to me like you were being a smart a*s? If not I STAND CORRECTED and apologize there have just been a few people who have sent me PM trying to tell me the way i do it is wrong in my methods or that I'm a liar, both things in which I do not appreciate in a PM when the idea of this site is to learn and help others not critique and criticize people who dont follow specific recipes or have their own methods. Everyone makes wine in their own unique way and that's what makes this hobby interesting. 
Regarding Camden and K-meta I have not tried this, not saying I work just saying I haven't yet. From what I have been told and what i have read about wine making started off not adding anything because they didn't know to add anything nor did they have the money too. It wast until the once thought as a peasants juice became a delicacy did they start to add things to speed up the ferment and the stabilization. The wealthier people were able to afford such additives to improve the wine. With additives come certain thing for instance know several people who never drank wine because of the head aches they got. However they loved my grandfathers homemade wine, turns out it's the sulfites that is added to wine that mazes her break out in minor hives her skin get flushed and she receives headaches. A large population if people are in the same boat as she. So as far as am concerned whether u age in oak or glass add yeast or not Camden k-meta you name it. Just enjoy your juice and remember to have fun, a bad day of while making is better than a good day at work  

THIS WAS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN THIS THREAD, I AM SIMPLY POSTING MY THOUGHTS AND KNOWLEDGE. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE!


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## Sirs (Oct 30, 2010)

Yea I felt kinda ackward when I first joined and started reading here because I didn't use chems. and it seemed like everyone was saying wild yeast is not as good or couldn't be trusted to work like others. Also it seemed like everyone thought my wine would be rocket fuel (most is but not all of it is, I like it that way) which is sorta true only because I make it that way. Anywayyyy I've learned a ton of stuff since I joined here and have made a few friends while here at least I think I have either way I love coming here and hope to be able to help people as much as I've been helped if nothnig else I'm good at finding fruits/grapes for free lol. I try not to tick people off even though I seem to at times it's not intended in any way..... I still say all natural is best and yes I'm talking about wine nothing else for a change for those of you who know how I am.




Giuseppe said:


> Not quite LOL I said I brew my wine the old country way, following my grandfathers recipe and how his father was taught aging goes by seasons and holidays Crush in early to mid OCT. Rack when needed and enjoy on Easter. I apologize If I misinterpreted the meaning of your reply but it sounds to me like you were being a smart a*s? If not I STAND CORRECTED and apologize there have just been a few people who have sent me PM trying to tell me the way i do it is wrong in my methods or that I'm a liar, both things in which I do not appreciate in a PM when the idea of this site is to learn and help others not critique and criticize people who dont follow specific recipes or have their own methods. Everyone makes wine in their own unique way and that's what makes this hobby interesting.
> Regarding Camden and K-meta I have not tried this, not saying I work just saying I haven't yet. From what I have been told and what i have read about wine making started off not adding anything because they didn't know to add anything nor did they have the money too. It wast until the once thought as a peasants juice became a delicacy did they start to add things to speed up the ferment and the stabilization. The wealthier people were able to afford such additives to improve the wine. With additives come certain thing for instance know several people who never drank wine because of the head aches they got. However they loved my grandfathers homemade wine, turns out it's the sulfites that is added to wine that mazes her break out in minor hives her skin get flushed and she receives headaches. A large population if people are in the same boat as she. So as far as am concerned whether u age in oak or glass add yeast or not Camden k-meta you name it. Just enjoy your juice and remember to have fun, a bad day of while making is better than a good day at work
> 
> THIS WAS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN THIS THREAD, I AM SIMPLY POSTING MY THOUGHTS AND KNOWLEDGE. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE!


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## Wade E (Oct 30, 2010)

Using no additives in your wine is not wrong! It is just a little riskier. Like I stated ina previous post here my friend did it this way for probably about 15 years with no problems at all. I didnt really like his wine and IMO it probably has nothing to do with the method used. I do believe in using these agents but also believe in keeping them in low #'s. As to the sulfites and headaches oes, that has been disproven so many times and sulfite allergies are actually very rare. Most juices in our grocery stores and many many other products are sulfited at higher levels then most of the wine that home wine makers levels are. Most commercial wines are way over sulfited, typically about 5x the level of ours.


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## Luc (Oct 30, 2010)

Using no additives can be risky indeed.

When a must has no or almost no acid the final wine can taste like medicin. I had a pineapple wine that really was bad. It indeed lacked acid when I measured it. That was a long, long time ago, now I do acid tests upfront.

Not adding nutrients may let your yeast die off early or even worse stress them and give off-odeurs and flavors. Like the dreaded rotten egss smell.

Not using sulphites is an option however I spilled a 30 liter batch dandelion wines with that:

http://wijnmaker.blogspot.com/2008/04/een-ongenode-gast-uninvited-guest.html

However when I make wines from store bought juice I never or very seldom use sulphite.

It is not a bad habit to no add anything to your wines, it just can be risky.

For all things (except sulphite) there are substitutes. I made a wine during my holliday on a camping site when I had no winemaking materials around. Everything is possible when you are able to improvise:

http://wijnmaker.blogspot.com/2010/07/camping-wijn-campsite-wine.html

Luc


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## MFC (Oct 30, 2010)

Giuseppe said:


> I use glass carboys and demijohns. Haven't had a single bad batch and I love the way it tastes. I press is OCT. Enjoy starting Easter and I'm lucky if that gets me to the following Easter. I don't age for more than that. Hey if your happy doing it your way and adding the chem. GREAT! I enjoy doing it this way. I think I'm going to try a few buckets of frozen grapes and add all the goodies it comes with.
> Thanks for the tips



Hey I didn't mean to try and impress anything on you. I was just saying that my family did the same thing for years before they switched. We used to make wine like that for 40 years or something. I was just trying to answer some questions. Sorry If I made anyone angry.


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## Sirs (Oct 30, 2010)

didn't me LOL


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## Rock (Nov 1, 2010)

Giuseppe said:


> Not quite LOL I said I brew my wine the old country way, following my grandfathers recipe and how his father was taught aging goes by seasons and holidays Crush in early to mid OCT. Rack when needed and enjoy on Easter. I apologize If I misinterpreted the meaning of your reply but it sounds to me like you were being a smart a*s? If not I STAND CORRECTED and apologize there have just been a few people who have sent me PM trying to tell me the way i do it is wrong in my methods or that I'm a liar, both things in which I do not appreciate in a PM when the idea of this site is to learn and help others not critique and criticize people who dont follow specific recipes or have their own methods. Everyone makes wine in their own unique way and that's what makes this hobby interesting.
> Regarding Camden and K-meta I have not tried this, not saying I work just saying I haven't yet. From what I have been told and what i have read about wine making started off not adding anything because they didn't know to add anything nor did they have the money too. It wast until the once thought as a peasants juice became a delicacy did they start to add things to speed up the ferment and the stabilization. The wealthier people were able to afford such additives to improve the wine. With additives come certain thing for instance know several people who never drank wine because of the head aches they got. However they loved my grandfathers homemade wine, turns out it's the sulfites that is added to wine that mazes her break out in minor hives her skin get flushed and she receives headaches. A large population if people are in the same boat as she. So as far as am concerned whether u age in oak or glass add yeast or not Camden k-meta you name it. Just enjoy your juice and remember to have fun, a bad day of while making is better than a good day at work
> 
> THIS WAS NOT AIMED AT ANYONE IN THIS THREAD, I AM SIMPLY POSTING MY THOUGHTS AND KNOWLEDGE. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE!



I have been known to be a smart ***.but i was only asking or to see if you ever heard of using the moon and such,only because my family and some of my family have been using the moons phases for years and since you use what you call old country ways that is why i asked.It wasnt that big of a question to ask,but i know i was going to open a new can of shi!!!.Its great and it keeps these post interesting.I guess i have to realize how some people can be thin skinned to these kind of questions.Any way i love the old school italian ways, alot of my family all still do it this way.Im happy it works for you.Salute pisono stata bueno.


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## JohnT (Nov 2, 2010)

Giuseppe, 

This is what make winemaking unique. The connection people feel to their past and family traditions. 

I, myself, come from 10 generations of grapegrowers and winemakers in Hungary. The family vineyard is still run by my family (my second cousine). My father is the first one of the family to come to these sacred shores. 

Each time I get together with family, the conversation goes from wine to family and then to long lost loved ones. I myself remember stories of the war and how my grandfather literally gave his life to protect the 48 harvest when the Russians decided it would be fun to burn the vines. 

Unfortunately, over the years, when the iron curtain was a fact of life, I simply did not have a lot of access to the "still producing" family locked abroad. I had come to realize that a lot of knowledge was lost along the way. Either things were forgotten entirely or, perhaps, remembered incorrectly. 

It took a while, but after a lot of research, and arguments with my father, I came to realize that I would bring more honor to my family by producing the best wine possible. I have come to feel that if my family had access to the type of chemicals and equipment that we have available today, they would have done exactly the same thing. 

The funniest part is that I had a chance to visit with my family after the wall came down. Guess what... They adopted the exact same modern techniques at the familiy winery as I had. Other than the barrels they use, the process is exactly the same. I realized then that most winemakers are always searching for ways to improve.

I quess that i am saying (very long-windedly) is that if you want to keep an open mind, you can strive to make a wine that is even better than your grandfather's. Just think, many years from now your grandkids will be raving about how your wine was so fantastic!

Salute!!!

johnT. 

BTW, My father always said they used "sulfur sticks" and not k-meta.


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## JohnT (Nov 2, 2010)

MFC said:


> It's basically just a matter of time before the barrel goes bad you have to change them out. About every couple of years (4-5). If your not using barrels and just glass you might have better luck but from tasting the wines that I now make with sulfites and the ones that we used to make they really are better. Not initally but if you plan on kepping the wine for a period over 1 year you will see a rapid decline in unsulfited wines. If you plan on making old school field wine and drink it all before next years vintage like many old timers do you might not have a problem.



If properly cared for, a barrel can last 100 years. In many countries, (france, italy, and germany for example) they use barrels spanning several generations. 

The reason the most wineries today disgard their barrels after 4 - 5 years is that the amount of oak flavor that can be imparted to the wine is negligable. Oak flavor and an increase of tannins is the main reason why comercial wineries barrel age. Since the oak flavor and amount of tannins are depleted, they simply disgaurd the barrel. 

Some wineries actually take the 5 year old barrel, scrape the insides down to bear wood, re-toast them, and get another 3 to 5 years of usage.


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## MFC (Nov 2, 2010)

JohnT said:


> If properly cared for, a barrel can last 100 years. In many countries, (france, italy, and germany for example) they use barrels spanning several generations.
> 
> The reason the most wineries today disgard their barrels after 4 - 5 years is that the amount of oak flavor that can be imparted to the wine is negligable. Oak flavor and an increase of tannins is the main reason why comercial wineries barrel age. Since the oak flavor and amount of tannins are depleted, they simply disgaurd the barrel.
> 
> Some wineries actually take the 5 year old barrel, scrape the insides down to bear wood, re-toast them, and get another 3 to 5 years of usage.



Yes I'm sorry if I was confusing. We have barrels that are now neutral that we ferment the grape in bc the staves are so thin we can't shave them anymore. My grandfather and uncles use to take them apart and scape them out it was a very manual process that I seriously can't bring myself to do it. It was so time consuming and buring the sulfer sticks in them was horrible. They used to do this indoors! I can usually get a barrel for $200 so to me it's not worth it.


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## Rock (Nov 2, 2010)

MFC said:


> Yes I'm sorry if I was confusing. We have barrels that are now neutral that we ferment the grape in bc the staves are so thin we can't shave them anymore. My grandfather and uncles use to take them apart and scape them out it was a very manual process that I seriously can't bring myself to do it. It was so time consuming and buring the sulfer sticks in them was horrible. They used to do this indoors! I can usually get a barrel for $200 so to me it's not worth it.



I dont blame you MFC,i was toying with the idea of re cooping one of my barrels.I will leave that up too the pros.I do love them oak barrels great investment.


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## Wade E (Nov 2, 2010)

Cmon Rock, you are an electrician, use your mind!!!!! Just nail that sucka with 440v or less depending on the toast you want!!!!!!!


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## Rock (Nov 2, 2010)

Yea 440v,that should give it the toast im looking for.


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## NY25712 (Nov 4, 2010)

There are many articles that advocate wild yeast been doing it for 26 years no problem hope this doesnt jinks me also do not use barrels many of the old timers used waxed barrels wax was melted and covered entire inside of barrel

do a search articles are there i ran google search "wild yeast in wine" came back with 100s of articles


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## JohnT (Nov 4, 2010)

NY25712 said:


> There are many articles that advocate wild yeast been doing it for 26 years no problem hope this doesnt jinks me also do not use barrels many of the old timers used waxed barrels wax was melted and covered entire inside of barrel
> 
> do a search articles are there i ran google search "wild yeast in wine" came back with 100s of articles



You can make an outstanding wine using wild yeasts, but a risk stems from not knowing the exact strain of yeast you end up with. For me, the use of wild yeast seems too risky so I have never tried it. I just like the comfort in knowing exactly what I am dealing with. I just may try a small test batch of natural yeast next year. 

As far as using the wax coated barrel, I can't see the point in it. The object of the game is to expose the wine to the wood and also allow for the benefits of micro oxodation and evaporation (to concentrate flavors). If the inside of the barrel is coated with wax, I do not see any of these benefits being realized. IMHO, go with glass. It is cheaper.


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## MFC (Nov 4, 2010)

In my family the used to wax the inside of the old nuetral barrels mainly to stop them from leaking. Because of taking them apart shaving them and putting them back together took a toll on them the would leak like an SOB. So they would coat the inside of the barrels they used for primary to keep them from leaking all over the floor. They had different barrels for aging.


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## JohnT (Nov 4, 2010)

OK, 

I did no know that they were used just for primary. That makes more sense.


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## s2000 (Aug 18, 2011)

Great discussion. I'll be making wine for the first time this year doing it the old fashioned way like my dad used to. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## BigMac (Dec 20, 2013)

Hello MFC

For 20 years I made wine with naturel fermentation from the wild yeast of the grape. My wines tasted great. I do not believe there is any danger in this approach at all.
For the past 10 years or so I have gone the route of using yeast to reach a certain flavor profile for the wines I am making. Just a different approach. Crap, I guess I have gone mainstream, @%$$!#!
As far as making wine based on the phases of the moon I believe in it. If you have details please share. My wife is an Ayurvedic Health practitioner and uses Moon Water in some of her remedies. I know it works.

Cheers
Jim


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## JohnT (Dec 26, 2013)

Big Mac, 

Have you ever tried making a natural yeast fermentation and cultured yeast fermentation by splitting a batch of grapes? You may be surprised just how much better the cultured yeast is.

As far as the phases of the moon, there is no supporting evidence that the moon in any way affects wine.


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## Craiger (Dec 27, 2013)

I make wine the way you are describing (no chemicals, letting the yeast present on the skins do the fermenting). To answer the original question, I rack approximately 4 times before I bottle. The first one is off of the gross lees 48 hours after pressing, and then I'll rack every 1 1/2 or 2 months until I bottle. It's not set in stone though.


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## BernardSmith (Dec 27, 2013)

BigMac said:


> Hello MFC
> 
> For 20 years I made wine with naturel fermentation from the wild yeast of the grape. My wines tasted great. I do not believe there is any danger in this approach at all.
> For the past 10 years or so I have gone the route of using yeast to reach a certain flavor profile for the wines I am making. Just a different approach. Crap, I guess I have gone mainstream, @%$$!#!
> ...



Jim, Let me say right off the bat that I am a thorough-going skeptic but I am curious about how the moon is supposed to affect the wine. And through what process is the moon doing what it is supposed to do? I have seen claims made by makers of mead that the moon affects their meads but I have yet to learn what the moon is doing and what the outcome is supposed to be and whether a naive taster would recognize differences caused by the moon.


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## allanerikckson (Dec 27, 2013)

question/brandywine/what is unnaturalingredientsthat are used to make brandy?


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## Rocky (Dec 27, 2013)

BernardSmith said:


> Jim, Let me say right off the bat that I am a thorough-going skeptic but I am curious about how the moon is supposed to affect the wine. And through what process is the moon doing what it is supposed to do? I have seen claims made by makers of mead that the moon affects their meads but I have yet to learn what the moon is doing and what the outcome is supposed to be and whether a naive taster would recognize differences caused by the moon.



Jim and Bernard, I am not saying that there is or that there is not an effect by the Moon but I knew a lot of old timers who swore that it did. They would not rack or move the wine when the Moon was full. They only explanation I can come up with is that the Moon does exert a gravitational force on the earth and, in part, causes tides (the oceans) to rise and fall. Does this have an effect on wine in a barrel? I don't know but I think the old timers knew what to do although they did not always understand why.


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## NY25712 (Dec 28, 2013)

Supposedly the full moon causes particles in wine to fall to the bottom as well as a day with high barometric pressure( therefore a bright sunny day not a rainy day) sounds crazy but that it> sometimes the old timmers have answers that get lost with time


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## GreginND (Dec 28, 2013)

The wineries that have the best success using native yeasts are the ones that compost their pummace back into the vineyard. Over years a strong native population of good wine yeasts develop.


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## BernardSmith (Dec 29, 2013)

NY25712 said:


> Supposedly the full moon causes particles in wine to fall to the bottom as well as a day with high barometric pressure( therefore a bright sunny day not a rainy day) sounds crazy but that it> sometimes the old timmers have answers that get lost with time



I say I am a skeptic but in truth I am fascinated by claims about knowledge different folk have about the world. "Old timers" certainly used and lived by different ways of knowing and the way of knowing that science offers is only 
one way of knowing. Certainly the dominant way ,today, and a powerful way given what most folk want to achieve and do... but it is only one way...


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## seth8530 (Dec 29, 2013)

My honest thought on the moons effect on wine making is that it is complete nonsense. Maybe, racking when only the moon was full might insure that the wine had enough time to compact or perhaps age a bit longer, but I honestly do not buy moon theory.


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