# Muriatic acid



## arky1974 (Jan 7, 2016)

Anyone use diluted (10:1) Muriatic acid to clean our carboys? I have several which are clean but they have a white film ( calcium) on them which will not come off. My thought is that it would be fine as long as I rinse then we'll.


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## ibglowin (Jan 7, 2016)

No, this would not be fine or even a good idea. Muriatic Acid is Hydrochloric acid (HCL) And Chlorine should NEVER be used in the winery as it can be a route to producing TCE or Cork Taint which could ruin your entire batch of wine if you use it in a carboy. Use Oxyclean or something similar.


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## richmke (Jan 7, 2016)

arky1974 said:


> I have several which are clean but they have a white film ( calcium) on them which will not come off.



Muratic acid is bad because of CL.
Vinegar is bad because you don't want to risk turning your wine into vinegar.

What other acid can you use? Try lemon juice.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jan 7, 2016)

First, distilled white vinegar is ok, its DISTILLED, nothing living in it so its ok to use as an acid wash but many people misunderstand that it is sterile and are afraid of it. Starsan is acidic, you can use it to dissolve away calcium stains. On the other hand what harm are some calcium spots doing, are you bringing the neighbors over to show them your pretty clean empty carboys or your ones full of wine WVMJ


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## 4score (Jan 7, 2016)

I'd suggest soaking it for a few hours with a PBW solution.

http://www.amazon.com/PBW-Five-Star--1-lb/dp/B0064O7XBA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452211672&sr=8-1&keywords=pbw


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## JohnT (Jan 8, 2016)

I totally agree with 4 score! 

Let me ask this.. Would you clean your dinner dishes using muriatic acid?? Would you eat off of them if you did? 

If you answer the above with a "No", then why would you feel ok about doing the same thing to your carboys??

Alternatives...
1) Try PBW 
2) try a squirt of automatic dishwashing detergent (the oxy type)
3) try distilled vinegar or lemon juice
4) Just ignore the calcium deposit. It may not look nice, but I doubt that it is doing any harm to your wine.
5) toss the carboy and get a new one. Life is too short.


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## arky1974 (Jan 8, 2016)

My thought was that HCL is easily dissipated by water so as long as I rinsed well enough I didn't think it would be an issue. I'll try some lemon juice and see if that works. I've got some left over from my last patch of skeeter pee! [emoji4]


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## GreginND (Jan 8, 2016)

I hate to disagree - but I am a chemist and can speak to this.

HCl (muriatic acid) is not a bad option to remove calcium deposits as they will be dissolved in acid. And the stronger the acid, the better. You may be ok with acetic acid (distilled vinegar), but HCl is stronger and will do a better job.

You do not need to worry about the chlorine issues that folks are speaking about. The Cl in hydrochloric acid is chloride (not chlorine). It is just as innocent as the chloride ion in sodium chloride (table salt). The cork taint issues folks are worried about with chlorine are caused by elemental chlorine (Cl-Cl) or other types of oxidized chlorine species (chlorite, chlorate, etc). 

Because it is a strong acid, please be careful not to get it on your skin and clothing or breath any vapors. Rinse very well with lots of water when you are done.


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## JDC (Jan 8, 2016)

JohnT said:


> I totally agree with 4 score!
> 
> Let me ask this.. Would you clean your dinner dishes using muriatic acid?? *(Yes)* Would you eat off of them if you did *(Yes, after rinsing)*?
> 
> ...



It is a common additive used in water treatment plants to adjust PH, and has been commonly used in the food industry to remove mineral scaling - so you are probably eating off utensils/plates that have been cleaned with it at your favorite eateries on a regular basis & it there is a high probability that your drinking water and pool water has been treated with it.


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## ibglowin (Jan 8, 2016)

Still would not use it. See this:

Chlorine Use in the Winery


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## GreginND (Jan 8, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Still would not use it. See this:
> 
> 
> 
> Chlorine Use in the Winery




This is absolutely not the same form of chlorine. These are oxidized forms of Cl, not chloride.

But if one is worried, sulfuric acid would be a better choice. No problems with sulfate that I know of.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 9, 2016)

Hey, chemists, what about nitric acid? 

I always use sulfuric on organic gunk, and HCl or Nitric on inorganic gunk.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jan 9, 2016)

Get a little vinegar in your eye, ooch ouch that stings a little, get the rest of that stuff in your eyes a bit more serious, would that be worth it to clean some carboys so they look good empty? If you got some kind of buildup that takes sulfuric acid to clean off a carboy toss it out and get a new carboy. BTW, the carboys sulfuric acid comes in commercially makes great carboys! WVMJ


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## GreginND (Jan 9, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Hey, chemists, what about nitric acid?
> 
> I always use sulfuric on organic gunk, and HCl or Nitric on inorganic gunk.



I would be uncomfortable with the toxicity of nitrates. Although if you rinse really really well - it shouldn't be a problem.


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## sour_grapes (Jan 9, 2016)

GreginND said:


> the toxicity of nitrates.



Mmmmm, bacon...


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## Tnuscan (May 29, 2016)

GreginND said:


> I hate to disagree - but I am a chemist and can speak to this.
> 
> HCl (muriatic acid) is not a bad option to remove calcium deposits as they will be dissolved in acid. And the stronger the acid, the better. You may be ok with acetic acid (distilled vinegar), but HCl is stronger and will do a better job.
> 
> ...



I came across some carboys and demijohns,... later,... after the purchase and before using them myself, I was informed that the seller had used BLEACH to clean. Being super paranoid of bleach I want to clean them to strip all possible residue of bleach. Here is the process I want to use. 

1- Use a dilution of Muriatic Acid and water while brushing, rinse, then....

2- Use PBW while brushing, rinse, then....

3- Use Starsan while brushing, rinse then dry. Then store until use.

Then before using for wine making, brushing with starsan, rinse, then pouring K-Meta solution into vessel, sloshing around with a solid bung, drain vessel then use. 

I have the time and don't mind the work. 

How do you feel of this process for removing ALL chlorine residue.

Thanks for your help!


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## mikewatkins727 (May 29, 2016)

GreginND has it right, HCL is chloride.

ibglowin's article talks about bleach which is hypochlorite and that is a no-no.

Now if you want to get serious, mix nitric & hydrochloric acid together in the ration of 1:3. The result is unstable and after a few hours it is no longer active. This is known as Aqua Regia.

This will dissolve gold (AU).


Decomposition of aqua regia

Upon mixing of concentrated hydrochloric acid and concentrated nitric acid, chemical reactions occur. These reactions result in the volatile products nitrosyl chloride and chlorine as evidenced by the fuming nature and characteristic yellow color of aqua regia. As the volatile products escape from solution, the aqua regia loses its potency.

HNO3 (aq) + 3 HCl (aq) → NOCl (g) + Cl2 (g) + 2 H2O (l)

Nitrosyl chloride can further decompose into nitric oxide and chlorine. This dissociation is equilibrium-limited. Therefore, in addition to nitrosyl chloride and chlorine, the fumes over aqua regia contain nitric oxide.

2 NOCl (g) → 2 NO (g) + Cl2 (g)

Because nitric oxide reacts readily with atmospheric oxygen, the gases produced also contain nitrogen dioxide, NO2.

2 NO (g) + O2 (g) → 2 NO2 (g) 

Mike W


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## Tnuscan (Jun 2, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I came across some carboys and demijohns,... later,... after the purchase and before using them myself, I was informed that the seller had used BLEACH to clean. Being super paranoid of bleach I want to clean them to strip all possible residue of bleach. Here is the process I want to use.
> 
> 1- Use a dilution of Muriatic Acid and water while brushing, rinse, then....
> 
> ...



@GreginND

Hi, I was wondering if you didn't understood the question, or just chose not to answer?

Thanks!


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## GreginND (Jun 2, 2016)

Sorry, I meant to get back to this but got distracted.

Your protocol looks fine. I don't know that there would be any bleach residue after rinsing well with water, but scrubbing and cleaning certainly can't hurt. I have certainly cleaned carboys and bottles with bleach away from the winery and never worried about them after triple rinsing with water.


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## DoctorCAD (Jun 2, 2016)

I pour it into my pool water and swim in it, so I wouldn't be too worried.

PPE is a must, the fumes are strong and the liquid will take skin down to the bone.


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## Tnuscan (Jun 2, 2016)

GreginND said:


> Sorry, I meant to get back to this but got distracted.
> 
> Your protocol looks fine. I don't know that there would be any bleach residue after rinsing well with water, but scrubbing and cleaning certainly can't hurt. I have certainly cleaned carboys and bottles with bleach away from the winery and never worried about them after triple rinsing with water.



Thank You.

Cheers!


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## Tnuscan (Jun 2, 2016)

DoctorCAD said:


> I pour it into my pool water and swim in it, so I wouldn't be too worried.
> 
> PPE is a must, the fumes are strong and the liquid will take skin down to the bone.



You really pour Muriatic acid in your pool water? 

Please explain.

Thanks!


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## Johnd (Jun 2, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> You really pour Muriatic acid in your pool water?
> 
> Please explain.
> 
> Thanks!



It is very typically used to lower the ph in your pool to proper levels.


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## DoctorCAD (Jun 2, 2016)

Best and cheapest way to keep pH in check with a salt water chlorine generator.

Baking soda and generic bleach are the other things you need...piss on pool store high-dollar crap.


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## WAC4504 (Oct 16, 2016)

*carboy with stains*



GreginND said:


> I hate to disagree - but I am a chemist and can speak to this.
> 
> HCl (muriatic acid) is not a bad option to remove calcium deposits as they will be dissolved in acid. And the stronger the acid, the better. You may be ok with acetic acid (distilled vinegar), but HCl is stronger and will do a better job.
> 
> ...



New at making wine and have a carboy that has stains in it that I just can't get out. After reading you post last night I went out and got some Muriatic acid at Home Depot, had to buy 2 gallons of the stuff so I think I have enough to get the job done, but my question is what is the mixing ratio for cleaning carboys? I planned on putting it outside at the drive way so when it's done I can use it to help clean the drive. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. thanks Bill


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## mwhitnell (Jul 26, 2018)

Using Muriatic acid to clean carboys or other things that have calcium deposits is an excellent choice, all these other guys are so screwed up they flunked chemistry or probably didn't take the class. Just rinse somewhat...and the other thing you may get an un asked for response or opinion is 'Acid is dangerous and can burn your skin'...hogwash acid will not burn your skin no matter the concentration...period, only caustic chemicals burn cellulose matter, such as lye, sodium hydroxide. Anyone with an opinion "Do not reply"


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## sour_grapes (Jul 26, 2018)

Posted without comment:


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## Ajmassa (Jul 26, 2018)

mwhitnell said:


> Using Muriatic acid to clean carboys or other things that have calcium deposits is an excellent choice, all these other guys are so screwed up they flunked chemistry or probably didn't take the class. Just rinse somewhat...and the other thing you may get an un asked for response or opinion is 'Acid is dangerous and can burn your skin'...hogwash acid will not burn your skin no matter the concentration...period, only caustic chemicals burn cellulose matter, such as lye, sodium hydroxide. Anyone with an opinion "Do not reply"





You know- reading your response (on a 2 year old conversation btw) did not make me think “wow. What an informative post about acid that was!” 
My only thought was “why is this dude so angry?” (Putting it nicely) Sorry not sorry I broke your “do not reply” rule.


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