# Degassing in a carboy....



## Tink (Jan 26, 2016)

I've been shaking the carboy for some days now and when I used the Vacuvin method just now no bubbles came up, making me think degassing was complete. But I just shook the carboy with my finger over the hole in the bung and could hear the 'pssshhh!' noise of gas escaping when I released my finger.
Will this be CO2 coming out or could it be the air inside the carboy that got mixed up in the wine when I shook it?

I was thinking that it must be CO2 (air wouldn't escape like that, I don't think?) but the Vacuvin brought up no bubbles at all and I know I had a good seal on it.


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## Dutch (Jan 26, 2016)

Hi Tink,

I've been trough the whole degass frustration the past year.
Drilled whip, vacuvin, brake bleeder, been there done that.

The misery came to an end after buying a small electric vacuumpump for €99,-
Hook it to the carboy, wait 15 minutes (shake if you will) and ready.

Be carefull trying to degass your wine too much, just taste it.
If it has Co2 in it you'll notice it on your tongue.


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## Johnd (Jan 26, 2016)

Dutch said:


> Hi Tink,
> 
> I've been to the whole degass frustration the past year.
> Drilled whip, vacuvin, brake bleeder, been there done that.
> ...



Amen!!!!!!!


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## Floandgary (Jan 26, 2016)

What is that pressure?? Take an empty bottle,, fill @half way with ordinary tap water,, put thumb over opening and shake bottle well. When you hear the little "pfftt" you'll be wondering how that could happen. Consider that the fluid extracts a little bit of heat from the bottle surface and expands. Voila!! pressure! Have a topped up carboy with an airlock sitting around?? Simply placing your hands on it for a minute can cause a bubble thru the airlock. Point is that it does not take very much to cause a perceptible increase in a confined space. Not necessarily CO2


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## Tink (Jan 26, 2016)

Aha, great explanation about the expanding fluid casusing pressure - thank you! I do love a scientific explanation for things! 

Great, I will move onto the next stage - cheers, everyone.


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## NorCal (Jan 26, 2016)

I'll vacuum transfer and filter a Carboy 3-4 times before I'm comfortable saying its degassed.


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## bkisel (Jan 26, 2016)

Been at this for 3 years now with 25 or so kits and fruit wines under my belt. The Vacuvin (I'm on my second one) is a pain in the butt to use for degassing 6 gallon carboys but it does get the job done.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 1, 2016)

I've heard a handful of horror stories about people having wines blow up or blow corks out in bottle because wasn't properly degassed. I've been told to stir it in the carboy until you think your arm is gonna fall off - then keep stirring some more.

How can one know - for sure - that the liquid has been fully and properly degassed?


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## NorCal (Feb 1, 2016)

A good test is to fill a bottle 1/3 full, put your thumb over the opening and shake it 5 times really hard. Lift your thumb slowly and you will tell if there is any remaining CO2. Note: if you are married, be sure to do this outdoors.


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## Fedoradude (Feb 8, 2016)

Interestingly enough, my Winexpert Cab Sauv instructions are pretty clear about not topping up the carboy with water or wine. (See pic below. I dont' think I have an F-pack kit).

Just curious; why do they not recommend topping up? Doesn't that extra space (air) run the risk of CO2?


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## jgmann67 (Feb 9, 2016)

If you're in step 2 of this kit, having headspace is fine as you're winding down fermentation. It's got an airlock on it and is giving off some co2 so you chances of oxidation are nill. 

In 10 days, you're done with that and moving on the clarifying and aging. I would top up with a similar cab then.


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## PostToastee (Feb 14, 2016)

*Degassing help!*

I'm starting my second kit. This is going to be a Winexpert Selection California Merlot. Did a Winexpert World Vineyard Chilean Merlot the first time and while after breathing awhile it tastes quite good, there is initially a noticeable effervescence to it. I'm assuming this is because I did not degas properly/enough. I used a drill with mixer attached and it would continually foam up to the point of almost coming out of the carboy so I decided I must be doing something wrong. Is this because I'm doing it too fast? How long and how fast is right? I then actually tried the vacuvin method but was unsure how many times you have to do it. Is it until it starts clicking like on a bottle of wine? 

Any tips on degassing without having to spend a lot on specialty tools would be appreciated.

Also, once I've degassed and am in the clarification process (step 4 with winexpert kits), is it still necessary to keep the wine at 72-75 degrees?


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## PostToastee (Feb 14, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> Interestingly enough, my Winexpert Cab Sauv instructions are pretty clear about not topping up the carboy with water or wine. (See pic below. I dont' think I have an F-pack kit).
> 
> Just curious; why do they not recommend topping up? Doesn't that extra space (air) run the risk of CO2?



I'm doing a Winexpert California Merlot and I just siphoned into carboy last night. I saw that about topping up and wondered why would I want to change what I'm making with some other wine. But that aside, I didn't need to, I had plenty to fill carboy. I took a bit more from the primary fermenter than you did and are probably about an inch or more from the top. Kind of hard to envision how much space a 1/2 liter would take up at the top. Seems like I probably could have filled even more but wanted to keep as much sediment as possible in the primary and was comfortable that I'd filled it up enough. 

This is only my second kit and I'm hoping this time that I can figure out how to get it properly degassed. My first one had a slight effervescence until it had breathed awhile.

Good luck with yours.


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## sampvt (Feb 15, 2016)

I understand that the allinone people have a great deal of influence on this site and good on them but I am in the uk and cant get one so here are my thoughts.
Degassing is a bain in my life and I have been through every known way known to man. I admit I am consumed with it, but I have no patience, I admit that. 
Ive had the cheap battery drill and the old coat hanger....crap.
Expensive and faster Dewalt drill and plastic whip....better but still crap.
Electric 240v drill with metal whizzer...much better but cant seems to find the perfect speed. Im either too slow and it does nothing, or too fast and I end up introducing air into the mix.
I then tried the vacuvin vacuum pressure method....not strong enough.
I then tried the food saver way and still no good but better.
I then borrowed a refrigeration vacuum pump and ended up imploding one of my best glass carboys but I had it in a 30l bucket so 20l of wine was re filtered and rescued, lol 
I then drove to Manchester to meet a friend that has an American allinone wine system and his wine is smooth and out of this world. 

The secret seems to be the amount of vacuum pressure applied to the must which has to be between 22 to 25 inches of mercury or inhg to those in the know, lol. 

Hand helds give 12 to 18inhg, food savers go between 14 to 18inhg, Refrigeration pumps go up to 28.5inhg, the holy grail figure, I am told, is 23inhg.

This mate just mixes, ferments, racks and degasses using the vacuum transfer method, then he applies a static degassing over night with a sustained pressure of 23inhg, then he filters and bottles. He maintains there is no real need to bulk age as the degassing has been done and the aging proves in the bottle. He then starts to drink it after 3 to 4 moths and maintains that with a proper degass, 3 to 4 months in the bottle is perfect. 

I know all the buffs out there that don't degass and bulk age will scoff at this, but we are talking about the difference between drinking in a year or drinking in 3 months. The common denominator here seems to be the degassing process as it aids the clearing and helps the aging process indirectly by allowing us to remove the nasties from the mix that occurs naturally over 12 months of bulk long term aging 

Ive researched the specs on the allinone system and I have found a pump similar to what they use here in the uk and I bought one second hand for £19 on e bay and new they are only £50. 

It gets here tomorrow so I will report back how it works as I have a mix waiting for a degass.

Now he sits back waiting for all the lectures, lol. 

PS every new idea progresses the art and we all started somewhere so without feedback, we would all still be brewing in clay pots..


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## Johnd (Feb 15, 2016)

I cut and pasted this article written by Tim Vandergrift for Winemaker Magazine in 2007. The facts are unchanged and he addresses this issue as eloquently as it can be. Only difference is that one can get a brand spanking new vacuum pump for US $100 or less, unless perhaps you are outside of the US, some folks seem to have trouble getting stuff there. 

Those who don't want to wait for wine to degas naturally and are having trouble with degassing wines, READ IT!!!

Mr. Vandergrift addresses imploding carboys, sucking all the alcohol out of your wine, sucking all the SO2 out of your wine, explains the kinetics of vacuums, explains how to prepare a carboy bung attachment, etc., a very well written article.

Sorry for the length of the post, but from all of the degassing posts here, it needs to be posted...............

Operating in a Vacuum: Wine Kits 

Author: Tim Vandergrift 
Issue: Feb/Mar 2007 


What could vacuums have to do with wine kits? While there have been times when a wet/dry vacuum would have been very helpful in my wine cellar, there is a specific benefit a bit of vacuum can have for kit winemakers. 

Regular readers will recall my article “Degassing Your Kit Wines,” in the October-November 2005 issue of WineMaker, which was an examination of the problems associated with dissolved carbon dioxide gas (CO2) in wine. 

In commercial wineries, it usually takes a year or more to get wine ready for bottling, giving the CO2 gas plenty of time to come out of solution. In kit wines, however, the wine is intended to be bottled after a few months. In that article, the gas problem was addressed extensively in a discussion of properly enthusiastic stirring techniques, including the use of drill-mounted whips to drive off the maximum amount of gas. However, there are some folks who don’t have as much success with stirring as a kit manufacturer might hope. If you are one of the people having problems chasing the last of the bubbles out of your batch, there is another path you can take: vacuum degassing. 

A perfect vacuum is a space that contains no matter. From a practical standpoint, any space in which the pressure is significantly lower than the pressure of the surrounding space can be called a vacuum. 

Warning: Applying a vacuum, even a moderate one, to a vessel not designed to be pressure-resistant carries an inherent danger. Malleable vessels (thin steel or plastic) may deform or collapse. Rigid but brittle vessels (i.e. glass) need internal support, or they may catastrophically implode. Never apply a vacuum to an empty carboy. If there is any doubt about the strength or integrity of a vessel, do not apply a pressure differential to it. In addition, you must wear proper safety equipment, including eye protection at all times when applying a vacuum to any sealed vessel. 

Time and Temperature

Ideally vacuum degassing should be done at the fining and stabilizing stage of your kit wine process, usually fifteen to twenty days after the onset of fermentation. Dissolved CO2 interferes with the action of fining agents. So, getting it out of solution before the finings are added will help them clear the wine effectively. 

In addition to degassing at the right time, you need to degas at the right temperature. Colder wine will retain more gas, and more tenaciously. Ideally, your wine should be around 75 °F (24 °C). If you degas any cooler than 65 °F (18 °C) you’ll have a more difficult time getting the gas to break out of solution.

Fill ‘er up!

When degassing, it’s important to have a very nearly full carboy. When full, the carboy walls are supported by the wine inside. Wine isn’t easily compressible or expandable, and doesn’t change size in a vacuum, so it will help keep the sides of the carboy from flexing under negative pressure. Only apply a vacuum to a carboy that is topped up into the shoulder, past the straight-sided walls. The shoulder area of the carboy has a significantly thicker layer of glass than the sides, and is much less likely to suffer a catastrophic failure, even under a strong vacuum. 

Electrolux, Mr. Goodwrench, Wine-Saver, or Mortuary: Generating Vacuum

Despite its name, the home vacuum cleaner doesn’t generate an efficient vacuum. At best it creates a localized vortex of slightly lowered air pressure that causes air to rush into the confines of its hose and bagging system, dragging along dirt and debris with it. Applied to a carboy, the intake hose of your vacuum wouldn’t produce a low enough pressure drop to pull any gas out of solution. 

In order to generate a strong enough vacuum, you will need to use a mechanical vacuum pump. These range from the very simple hand pump and one-way valve to the complex (and expensive) electric vacuum pump. Each has its merits — and price point. 

Easiest, simplest, fastest and almost certainly cheapest is the Wine-Saver vacuum units. You’ve probably seen these in magazines, if you don’t own one already. They consist of a stopper with a one-way valve that fits into the neck of a bottle, and a small pump-unit that slips on to the top of the stopper. When you have a partially empty bottle of wine, you slip the stopper in, attach the pump unit, and yanking away like you’re using a bicycle pump you evacuate part of the air from the bottle. The theory is that this will help an unfinished bottle of wine stay fresh for several days. (As I always say, if I ever have an unfinished bottle of wine, I intend to try this out.)

Some of the Wine-Saver units come with a one-way stopper that actually fits into the neck of a standard 6-gallon (23 -L) carboy without modification or adaptation, and almost all of them are priced well under $20 for a pump unit and a couple of stoppers. 

If your model isn’t the kind that connects directly to the carboy, there are several ways to gin up a connection that will be vacuum-tight enough for our purposes. The simplest is probably to adapt a #6.5 bung, the size that fits into the neck of almost all glass carboys. Don’t use a #6 as it’s just small enough to get sucked into the carboy under pressure. 

You’ll need to enlarge the hole in the middle of the bung to accept a short sleeve of rigid acrylic tubing, which will in turn fit snugly inside the one-way valve of the vacuum unit. Bungs are commonly made out of natural gum rubber, which is a fabulous material for our purposes, but with one drawback: it’s nearly impossible to drill a hole in it under normal circumstances. The rubber is so soft that it doesn’t want to cut under the drill bit. 

The solution to this is to freeze the bung for an hour or so before applying the drill to it, making sure to work quickly before it heats up. Frozen natural rubber is not only more easily cut, it’s more rigid and deforms less under pressure. Of course, drilling a small, slippery object is a sure-fire way to unplanned body-piercing, so be sure to use a vice to hold the bung solidly in place while drilling. Drill presses with pre-jigged vice mounts are ideal for this purpose. 

If you don’t have a vice, or a drill-press, don’t panic: before you freeze your bung, glue it to a small, flat piece of scrap wood, wide-end down. My personal favorite glue for all purposes is foaming, water-activated polyethylene glue, commonly sold under the Gorilla Glue brand. It glues dang near anything to anything and is low on fumes and toxicity. (One word of warning though: please, please keep this stuff out of the reach of pets. It has a slightly sweet taste that might entice some animals to eat it. When they do it expands in their digestive system with disastrous, life-threatening results.) A little goes a long way, and be sure to clean it up afterwards. Once the glue has set well (24 hours) pop the board and bung into the freezer, let it set, haul it out, clamp it to a work surface, and you’re ready to go.

Using a good, sharp drill bit, drill a half-inch hole though the middle of the bung. Don’t worry if it’s off-center, or winds up a bit eccentric or oval-shaped. Remember, gum rubber is malleable, and close enough is good for our purposes. If your bung was glued to a board, pry it off with a paint scraper or a chisel and use a razor knife to cut off the gluey surface —we don’t want that contacting our wine. Don’t worry if it isn’t pretty — it’s going to be wonderfully functional.

Now, cut off a short piece of 1/2 inch acrylic tubing (commonly available in hardware, plumbing or hobby stores, and obtainable from places that sell plastic rods and sheets). Two inches (5.1 cm) is plenty. You can cut this by scoring the tubing with a razor knife and snapping it off, or by cutting with a hacksaw, but my favorite is a standard plumbing pipe-cutter, which looks like a little “C” clamp with a sharp cutting wheel on one end of the clamp. Put it on the tube, tighten it snugly, spin it around and voilà — French for “hey, it worked!” — the tubing will snap off clean and neat. 

Take the section of tubing and carefully force it into your newly drilled bung-hole. This will take a bit of doing, and should fit very snugly. At this point, you’re ready to degas! 

Fit the end of the acrylic tube sticking out of the top of the bung into the bottom of the one-way valve, ensuring that it fits securely. Sanitize the bung, fit it into the neck of the carboy, attach the pump unit and start stroking away. You should see nothing at first, and then a few bubbles on the surface, eventually followed by a general evolution of gas throughout the carboy. If the wine is exceptionally saturated with gas, the foaming might come up near the neck of the carboy. If this happens, don’t panic — just release the stopper for a moment, allow the foam to subside and pump it again. 

After a few minutes, you might notice a slowdown in the rise of bubbles through the wine. At this point, without releasing the vacuum, you can very gently and very carefully agitate the carboy. The best way to do this is to tilt it up on edge and gently slosh it back and forth. Under vacuum, this agitation will help force any stubborn gas out of solution. Pump some more, and see if the foaming continues. 

Three to four series of pumping and agitating should be sufficient to completely de-gas your wine, and you can proceed on to the next steps. 

Putting on the Brakes

Another interesting way to apply a vacuum to the carboy is through the use of an automotive brake-bleeding tool. These are used in repair shops to remove every last drop of fluid from hydraulic braking systems. They look a bit like a largish pair of shears with a hose barb coming out of them. When squeezed together, the scissor action of the unit works a piston pump, producing a fairly strong vacuum. While not usually as cheap as a vacuum wine saver unit, they are still relatively cheap. 

To adapt this to your carboy, have a look at the hose barb coming off the unit. It will fit to either a 1?8 inch or 1?4 inch hose, which may or may not come with the unit. If the fitting is set for smaller than 1?4 inch, you may need to adapt it to the larger hose size by gluing it onto a piece of 1?4 inch hose. 

When the unit is ready, sanitize the bung, fit it into the neck of the carboy, and squeeze, squeeze, squeeze the handles, following the routine described for the vacuum saver unit to get rid of all the gas. Because it develops a more robust vacuum, this system will get more gas out, more quickly than the vacuum saver. 

Go Big or Go Mortician

The ultimate luxury ride for vacuum degassing is an electric vacuum pump. Costing over $200 a piece, these units are sturdy, fast and powerful, running off 110V wall current. In only moments, they develop vacuum as high as 29 inches of mercury. Pre-fitted with 1/4 inch hose barbs, they can be ordered through scientific supply catalogues, from the internet or through a local school/college laboratory. Or, you might get one used . . . 

My own vacuum pump is a vintage model, built in the 1930’s by a company called Gomco. It’s a beautiful unit, of crackle-finished lacquered iron and stainless steel, with hand-blown glass vacuum reservoir, leather seals and the weight of an anvil, a real piece of vintage Art-Deco engineering and design. I got it for free when a friend of mine, a mortician, bought himself a new unit. You see, it is intended as a canular evacuation pump, for pulling the body fluids out of corpses. But don’t worry; I rinsed it out before I started using it. 

There are a couple of points to keep in mind with electric vacuum pumps. First, wine and electricity don’t mix, so you’ll need to be careful to isolate the unit from contact with liquid, or even significant amounts of wine vapor. To do this, you’ll need a vacuum reservoir. This is simply another sealed vessel used as an intermediate unit between the pump and the carboy. If your pump comes with one, you’re golden. If it doesn’t, they’re not too difficult to make. 

You’ll need to use a small, extremely sturdy glass or metal vessel as a reservoir. Just about the all-around best container for this purpose is a one-gallon glass jug in good condition. Large enough for liquid spill-over, but small enough to be fairly robust against vacuum pressure, most of them also accept a #6 or #6.5 bung. The key to adapting it is a double-drilled bung. The first hole accepts the hose from the vacuum pump. The second hole gets fitted to another hose, which goes into a single-hole bung that fits into the degassing carboy. 

The hose running from the degassing carboy to the vacuum reservoir should be pulled right through the hole, until it nearly rests on the bottom of the gallon jug — when it’s all set up, you can see why: flip the switch and the vacuum pump begins removing air from the gallon jug. Naturally, atmosphere from the degassing carboy races through the hose to the area of lower pressure. As the lowered pressure increases in both vessels you’ll see the evolution of gas out of the wine. This will happen very quickly, and often with a lot of foaming and rising wine. If some liquid does get sucked from the degassing carboy it will flow through the hose to the bottom of the reservoir, well away from second hose leading to the vacuum pump, preventing you from ruining a $200 investment by trying to electrocute your wine. 

Some units, such as my vintage Gomco, have vacuum adjustment valves, allowing you to dial-in the amount of vacuum you want. Others simply keep pumping until they hit their maximum limit. Usually hitting 29 inches of mercury isn’t going to crack a nearly-filled carboy in good condition, but you may wish to dial it back. 

You can leave the vacuum on for a few minutes, but most of the action will be over in less than 30 seconds after achieving a good pressure differential: it’s really quite impressive, foaming, bubbling, rushing and gushing and then, poof! It all settles quietly, with no further activity. Now that’s good degassing! You can proceed with the rest of your winemaking steps with nary a bubble or a fizz.

Whither Goest the Gas? 

A couple of points for the curious: while hard vacuums have some interesting properties, you needn’t worry about most of them when using your home degassing unit. I’m speaking of the fractional volatilization of different substances in the wine. Theoretically, a hard enough vacuum will cause the liquid inside the carboy to boil — even at room temperature. To understand this, think about the instructions for cooking at high altitudes: they sometimes say things along the lines of “boil for an extra ten minutes for every 1,000 feet above sea-level.” This is because under lowered pressure water boils at a lower temperature. The opposite is true as well, of course. Inside pressure cookers things get hot, fast, as water boils at much higher temperatures.

So, will your wine boil? Nope. The vacuum you’ll be able to develop won’t actually be strong enough to boil water at room temperature. But what about alcohol? Alcohol already boils off at a much lower temperature than water, and most people have heard of vacuum stills. Can you de-alcoholize your wine under vacuum? Again, nope — or at least nope in terms that you can measure. While you may lose a few alcohol molecules to the vacuum process, it won’t be enough to affect the actual percentage of alcohol in your wine. Finally, what about sulfite? It can be pulled out of solution by the action of vacuum. In this case, the answer is actually “yep, but.” You can lose one or two parts per million (ppm) of free SO2 to a strong vacuum over a period of hours. However, a couple of parts per million are beneath the ability of most home tests to measure, and not enough to warrant the addition of any extra sulfite to your kit wine. 

That’s pretty much all there is to it: if you want a fast, very effective, and permanent solution to your degassing worries — and you aren’t afraid of a little work adapting some non-traditional gear to your home winemaking tools, or perhaps spending a bit of cash on a cool commercial vacuum pump — you can be the first on your block to give up vigorous stirring for languid repose, saving the strength in your arms for hoisting a sample of your latest batch!

Tim Vandergrift is Technical Services Manager for Winexpert Limited. He writes the “Wine Kits” column in every issue of WineMaker, when not asking morticians for wine gear.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 15, 2016)

No real feedback (or lectures!), but I would like to know more about your imploded carboy. 

I really, really do not believe that you will generally implode carboys if you pull even a perfect vacuum on them. (My vacuum pump is rated to 29.90 in Hg, although I doubt I reach that deep in practice.) My point is that there is not a lot of additional force on the carboy in going from, say, 23 inHg to 29.92 inHg. Yes, it is 23% more force, but I do not think we are "living on the edge" when we pump to 23 inHg.

Was there any reason for you to think your carboy was damaged or flawed? Was it what I think of as a "normal" thick-walled carboy, like this:
http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_28&product_id=191


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## sour_grapes (Feb 15, 2016)

Good article, but there is a small correction to something Tim wrote:



Johnd said:


> When degassing, it’s important to have a very nearly full carboy. When full, the carboy walls are supported by the wine inside. Wine isn’t easily compressible or expandable, and doesn’t change size in a vacuum, so it will help keep the sides of the carboy from flexing under negative pressure. Only apply a vacuum to a carboy that is topped up into the shoulder, past the straight-sided walls. The shoulder area of the carboy has a significantly thicker layer of glass than the sides, and is much less likely to suffer a catastrophic failure, even under a strong vacuum.



He is correct that it is better to have a full carboy, but for the wrong reason.

The wine provides no meaningful support to the carboy. (At the very bottom of the carboy, where the effect is maximum, the wine reduces the pressure differential on the carboy by about 1.3 inHg, or about 4% of the total if a complete vacuum is pulled.

However, having a full carboy reduces the amount of stored energy that could be turned into flying glass if you should happen to have a flawed carboy that suffers a catastrophic failure. The liquid would also help contain said glass in this event.


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## sampvt (Feb 15, 2016)

Johnd said:


> I cut and pasted this article written by Tim Vandergrift for Winemaker Magazine in 2007. The facts are unchanged and he addresses this issue as eloquently as it can be. Only difference is that one can get a brand spanking new vacuum pump for US $100 or less, unless perhaps you are outside of the US, some folks seem to have trouble getting stuff there.
> 
> Those who don't want to wait for wine to degas naturally and are having trouble with degassing wines, READ IT!!!
> 
> ...



loved this post and it confirms my research, that's a lot.


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## sampvt (Feb 15, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> No real feedback (or lectures!), but I would like to know more about your imploded carboy.
> 
> I really, really do not believe that you will generally implode carboys if you pull even a perfect vacuum on them. (My vacuum pump is rated to 29.90 in Hg, although I doubt I reach that deep in practice.) My point is that there is not a lot of additional force on the carboy in going from, say, 23 inHg to 29.92 inHg. Yes, it is 23% more force, but I do not think we are "living on the edge" when we pump to 23 inHg.
> 
> ...



when I say it imploded, it actually cracked and the bottom fell off when I lifted it out of the bucket. I was told at that area it was probably an existing stress fracture from extended use and probably abuse but I will say that thinner and less robust gallon demijohns have never broke.


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 15, 2016)

@ sampvt
I have sold several pumps to the UK already - all you need is a simple converter - There are a few people on this forum that have bought them from the UK and delivery is not that bad - similar to Canada's Charge

Yes that makes sense about the carboy failure now - could of been too much temperature change or a vacuum that was in the bucket that the carboy was in and a weak carboy with possible stress cracks . 

Never add hot water to a carboy to was it out - unless you gradually bring up the temperature of the glass slowly


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## sampvt (Feb 15, 2016)

This post has been edited so as not to cause embarrassment. I have PM'd the person involved.


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## grapeman (Feb 15, 2016)

Why not send him a Private Message here at the forum?


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 15, 2016)

Please pm me on the exact bung you need .

What is the 1 way valve being used for ?


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## sampvt (Feb 15, 2016)

grapeman said:


> Why not send him a Private Message here at the forum?



Ive PM'd him and edited the post, thanks, my bad, I was thinking out loud.


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## Johnd (Feb 15, 2016)

sour_grapes said:


> Good article, but there is a small correction to something Tim wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more Paul, and as I've stated in other posts here, a flawed or previously damaged carboy may well break / implode, call the failure what you want, but I don't believe that a sound glass carboy will fail as a result of vacuum degassing wine. Just want to make sure that folks who are looking for ways to degas have real, factual information to make decisions.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 15, 2016)

Fedoradude said:


> I've heard a handful of horror stories about people having wines blow up or blow corks out in bottle because wasn't properly degassed. I've been told to stir it in the carboy until you think your arm is gonna fall off - then keep stirring some more.
> 
> How can one know - for sure - that the liquid has been fully and properly degassed?



CO2 left in the wine will Not cause a bottle to blow. An unfinished ferment is what causes bottle bombs. The wine starts over and excessive pressure is what explodes. Degassed wine just tastes wrong.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 15, 2016)

DoctorCAD said:


> CO2 left in the wine will Not cause a bottle to blow. An unfinished ferment is what causes bottle bombs. The wine starts over and excessive pressure is what explodes. Degassed wine just tastes wrong.



I come in peace....lol 

"Degassed wine just tastes wrong",(DoctorCAD) Will you explain more clearly? 

Thanks much!!

EDIT: The last sentence of post #26 reads......"Degassed wine just tastes wrong".


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 15, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> I come in peace....lol
> 
> "Degassed wine just tastes wrong", Will you explain more clearly?
> 
> Thanks much!!




Picture drinking a can of pop - fresh and then drink it after it has been opened overnight - 

The CO2 bubbles actually cover your palate and mask the real taste of the liquid you are consuming.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 15, 2016)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Picture drinking a can of pop - fresh and then drink it after it has been opened overnight -
> 
> The CO2 bubbles actually cover your palate and mask the real taste of the liquid you are consuming.



SEE POST # 26 Last Sentence...

I thought the goal Was to degas the wine. 

That statement sounds contradictive.

So (DoctorCAD) likes gassy wine???????


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## vacuumpumpman (Feb 16, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> SEE POST # 26 Last Sentence...
> 
> I thought the goal Was to degas the wine.
> 
> ...



No -
he was answering a question about a bottle blowing off a cork to someone else's post.


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## DoctorCAD (Feb 16, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> SEE POST # 26 Last Sentence...
> 
> I thought the goal Was to degas the wine.
> 
> ...


 
You are correct, I mis-typed. 

Should have read "Gassy wine just tastes wrong"


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## Tnuscan (Feb 16, 2016)

DoctorCAD said:


> You are correct, I mis-typed.
> 
> Should have read "Gassy wine just tastes wrong"[/QUOT
> 
> Thought it was meant to be, Gassy or, Over Gassed ,but I'm usually(standing backward) out in left field anyway.


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## michael-s (Feb 16, 2016)

I was using my vacuum pump to degas and the pressure got too high! Has this ever happened to anyone degassing their glass 
carboys using a vacuum pump. Not sure what to do.


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## AZMDTed (Feb 16, 2016)

Nice figure. As it ages it will expand


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## NorCal (Feb 16, 2016)

michael-s said:


> I was using my vacuum pump to degas and the pressure got too high! Has this ever happened to anyone degassing their glass
> carboys using a vacuum pump. Not sure what to do.




Now that is funny


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## NelsonC (Oct 31, 2018)

PostToastee said:


> *Degassing help!*
> 
> I'm starting my second kit. This is going to be a Winexpert Selection California Merlot. Did a Winexpert World Vineyard Chilean Merlot the first time and while after breathing awhile it tastes quite good, there is initially a noticeable effervescence to it. I'm assuming this is because I did not degas properly/enough. I used a drill with mixer attached and it would continually foam up to the point of almost coming out of the carboy so I decided I must be doing something wrong. Is this because I'm doing it too fast? How long and how fast is right? I then actually tried the vacuvin method but was unsure how many times you have to do it. Is it until it starts clicking like on a bottle of wine?
> 
> ...


It has happened to me a couple of times. This happens because the fermentation is not over. You do need to wait until very little or no bubbling is going to the surface of the must, then you need to transfer the wine to a second carboy, or if you don't have a second one, use the primary fermentation vessel (which should have enough space, i.e. not over filled). There is no real amount of time to say what you should wait, because fermentation depends on the room temperature (which can vary from location to location). 
You do not need to degass aggressively, i.e. using a power drill. Power drill is convenient if you are in a hurry. Degassing will ensure that clarification (a later stage in the process) will succeed or at least will be better. Degassing by using a long "spoon" is OK so long you take your time (about 10 min) and turn clockwise and anti-clockwise fast enough to see bubbles come to the top of the wine. Foam may form but should subside slowly. If 10 min is too long, then do 5 min, then take a break and do it again 5 min at a time.


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## VicF (Nov 18, 2018)

sampvt said:


> I understand that the allinone people have a great deal of influence on this site and good on them but I am in the uk and cant get one so here are my thoughts.
> Degassing is a bain in my life and I have been through every known way known to man. I admit I am consumed with it, but I have no patience, I admit that.
> Ive had the cheap battery drill and the old coat hanger....crap.
> Expensive and faster Dewalt drill and plastic whip....better but still crap.
> ...



So, how did it turn out. Been waiting 2 yrs to know!


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## Carboy-Boy (Dec 13, 2018)

Just to add...…..I've been using a 'retired' AC vac pump to degass my wine for many years now. At first I was paranoid that the pump would collapse my carboy, but it did not. I get somewhere around 20 in of vacuum, apparently not enough to collapse a carboy full of wine. I added the separator, as noted before very gassy wine can & will be sucked into the pump...……..not good! I believe I paid $35cdn for the used pump. Very effective process.


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## robert81650 (Dec 14, 2018)

Very classy clear wine...........good job...........


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## jgmann67 (Dec 14, 2018)

sampvt said:


> I understand that the allinone people have a great deal of influence on this site and good on them but I am in the uk and cant get one so here are my thoughts.
> Degassing is a bain in my life and I have been through every known way known to man. I admit I am consumed with it, but I have no patience, I admit that.
> Ive had the cheap battery drill and the old coat hanger....crap.
> Expensive and faster Dewalt drill and plastic whip....better but still crap.
> ...



There is one cheap alternative that you missed. It is also crap when compared to an AIO, but it is substantially better than a vacc-u-vin, a food saver and beating the co2 out of your wine with a whip or drill. 

A $20 brake bleeder kit from Harbor Freight:




Upside, you can get to that magical 22-25 inches of vacuum. Downside, it takes a bit of muscle and patience. 

Simple instructions: Get the carboy to the desired vaccuum. Agitate the wine. Wait and watch as the co2 releases. Repeat when the vacuum drops down below the desired level.


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## masic2000 (Dec 15, 2018)

I am experimenting with a shop vac and a home made vacuum pressure regulator using an old air lock with holes drilled on the sides (i'll try to post some pics if I can). I do not have a gauge attached so i'm not sure how much pressure i'm pulling. I have imploded one plastic carboy (transferring water initially . . .) so I know I cannot use full pressure to rack. But with some trial and error I was able to rack wine successfully without pushing the limits. At some point I'd like to know how much pressure I'm actually pulling.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 15, 2018)

From Shopvac.com



> Sealed Pressure (SP) – Suction pressure measured in inches of water if you were to pick up a solid column of water straight up vertically. The number represents how many inches the water can be pulled by the pressure. Numbers >75 are considered the high end of utility vacuum cleaners.



75" of water is about 5.5 inHg (or 140 mmHg), or about 2.7 psig, or about 0.18 atmospheres below room pressure.


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## masic2000 (Dec 15, 2018)

Thanks sour. This is something I can try . . .


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## cmason1957 (Dec 15, 2018)

I'd doubt you will do anything with 2.7 psig. When I used to use the brake setup, I never got anything to come out before about 15.


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## sour_grapes (Dec 16, 2018)

cmason1957 said:


> I'd doubt you will do anything with 2.7 psig. When I used to use the brake setup, I never got anything to come out before about 15.



I agree with your sentiment, Craig, but the maximum that is possible is 14.7 psig.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 16, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> I agree with your sentiment, Craig, but the maximum that is possible is 14.7 psig.


Damn units. It has been to long since it mattered that I messed those up. And you are correct, once again, psig, mm. Whatever it takes.

(obscure reference to Mr. Mom. 220, 221 whatever it takes)


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## vacuumpumpman (Dec 18, 2018)

he also mentioned that he imploded a plastic carboy - which is not a hard thing to do with vacuum. It took me YEARS to develop a system, NOT to implode a PET carboy while using the All in one Wine Pump -


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## Kiazer (Jan 21, 2019)

bkisel said:


> Been at this for 3 years now with 25 or so kits and fruit wines under my belt. The Vacuvin (I'm on my second one) is a pain in the butt to use for degassing 6 gallon carboys but it does get the job done.


I whip mine in the carboy for 30 mins...


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## bstnh1 (Jan 22, 2019)

I use a stainless steel Mixstir in my drill and have never had a problem degassing. You just need to be careful with the speed of the drill so as not to create a big vortex and suck a lot air into the wine and mistakenly think the foam is from Co2.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 23, 2019)

masic2000 said:


> I am experimenting with a shop vac and a home made vacuum pressure regulator using an old air lock with holes drilled on the sides (i'll try to post some pics if I can). I do not have a gauge attached so i'm not sure how much pressure i'm pulling. I have imploded one plastic carboy (transferring water initially . . .) so I know I cannot use full pressure to rack. But with some trial and error I was able to rack wine successfully without pushing the limits. At some point I'd like to know how much pressure I'm actually pulling.


The house vac I tried will pull 4 inches of vacuum. They operate with a centrifugal fan and are not as efficient as a piston pump with check valves (positive displacement pump). 
If I wanted a cheap way to measure vacuum or pressure I would put together a “U” tube with water in it. The few posts in this thread about inches of mercury (Hg) go back to the 1800s when we thought mercury thermostats and mercury “U” tubes were ok. Haven’t looked for the conversion Hg to water but it is in feet. Our standard air lock will hold about 1 inch water column, or .1 kpa. CO2 wants to come out of solutions even at low pressure/ vacuum. It just takes more time.

All this said if a shop vac was what I had I would use it! ! ! , , ( and did before buying a pump! , , SO2 is nasty stuff on the lungs when starting a siphon by mouth.)


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## Burton Kent (Mar 13, 2019)

sampvt said:


> The secret seems to be the amount of vacuum pressure applied to the must which has to be between 22 to 25 inches of mercury or inhg to those in the know, lol.
> 
> Hand helds give 12 to 18inhg, food savers go between 14 to 18inhg, Refrigeration pumps go up to 28.5inhg, the holy grail figure, I am told, is 23inhg.


Where did you find out about the 23inhg figure?

Very interested as I'm trying to find the right pressure for my vacuum. Some wines nearly explode with foam when I apply a vacuum. Others barely react and stay gassy. It's depressing.


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## Carboy-Boy (Mar 13, 2019)

Regarding degassing using a vac pump, my experience is you need at least 25 inHg. Years ago when I started using a vac pump to degas, I like many others, were concerned about collapsing the carboy. I started with ~ 15 in Hg and worked up to the max my pump would pull (1/6 HP, single stage, 1.5cfm), or just a shade over 25 inHg. That seemed to be the ticket, as every degas stage since has been successful. As Burton mentioned, "some wines nearly explode". When this happens what I do is cycle the pump a number of times, relieving the vacuum each time. After 4-6 cycles degassing settles down. (Note: added a separation vessel to prevent liquids from entering vac pump - see pic). Never had a kit not respond to the degas cycle using 25 in Hg, as mentioned earlier some start more violent than others, but in the end they all degas in 60-90 minutes.


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## Burton Kent (Mar 13, 2019)

Carboy-Boy said:


> Regarding degassing using a vac pump, my experience is you need at least 25 inHg.


60-90 minutes seems like a long time. I do know that the alcohol will boil from the low pressure but haven't seen specifics about when it'll happen.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 13, 2019)

Burton Kent said:


> 60-90 minutes seems like a long time. I do know that the alcohol will boil from the low pressure but haven't seen specifics about when it'll happen.



I was thinking the same thing - Typically only 3-4 vacuum transfers using the allinonewinepump will remove most all the CO2.


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## Johnd (Mar 13, 2019)

I’ve posted the vacuum degassing article by Dan Pambianchi ad nauseum when this topic comes up, now it appears that it’s in a members only section of Winemaker Magazine. In short, you’re not going to boil off your alcohol.

I use a simple $99 vacuum pump which gets pretty close to 29 inHg and can degas any carboy of wine in minutes, period, alcohol intact. The key to not “exploding” the CO2 out of the wine is to use a simple inline valve which controls the strength of the vacuum. Start with the valve wide open and slowly close it, thus slowly increasing your vacuum and removing the gas slowly, not immediately.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 13, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I’ve posted the vacuum degassing article by Dan Pambianchi ad nauseum when this topic comes up, now it appears that it’s in a members only section of Winemaker Magazine. In short, you’re not going to boil off your alcohol.
> 
> I use a simple $99 vacuum pump which gets pretty close to 29 inHg and can degas any carboy of wine in minutes, period, alcohol intact. The key to not “exploding” the CO2 out of the wine is to use a simple inline valve which controls the strength of the vacuum. Start with the valve wide open and slowly close it, thus slowly increasing your vacuum and removing the gas slowly, not immediately.




Johnd - 
I noticed in the pic that he has no regulator - so he is running at full maximum vacuum - It is stated that he will run the vacuum pump for 60-90 minutes. If you remove the CO2 in minutes using a similar AC style pump. I have to ask if he is pulling bubbles out of the wine after that long of a time - what could he be pulling off then ?


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## Carboy-Boy (Mar 14, 2019)

When I started using the vac pump did a little research. What I found was that ethanol vaporizes at 172 degrees F at sea level, at 25 in Hg it will vaporize at 79 degrees F. My wine is in the 64 - 66 degrees F range so no matter how long the degas process (at this temperature) the alcohol content should not be affected. At least that is the assumption I've been going on!


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 14, 2019)

Carboy-Boy said:


> When I started using the vac pump did a little research. What I found was that ethanol vaporizes at 172 degrees F at sea level, at 25 in Hg it will vaporize at 79 degrees F. My wine is in the 64 - 66 degrees F range so no matter how long the degas process (at this temperature) the alcohol content should not be affected. At least that is the assumption I've been going on!


* A good assumption, you will not be able to measure a decrease in alcohol in solution , , , but if we had a university lab the actual decrease would be a few ppm.
GAS THEORY
* Water will dissolve 1.7 gram per liter of CO2 at 20C (room temp/ 1 atmosphere pressure) As the temperature decreases more CO2 will dissolve (roughly a log function) and as temp increases less will dissolve. As the CO2 comes out of solution it absorbes heat from the liquid which means that the solubility of the gas in your wine has increased ie the rate at which it comes out will decrease.
* We are pulling a vacuum which has the effect of increasing the rate at which the gas comes out, in this case it is linear to what is called the partial pressure. This is made up of the percent of CO2 in the headspace times the pressure in the headspace ie as bubbles start to come out the headspace will become enriched with CO2 and the rate decreases as we pull a gas out.
* The CO2 in the wine has reacted with water to create carbonic acid which reacts with the wine acids/ salts, drops the pH and technically is no longer a dissolved gas. All this works to come to equilibrium changing the chemistry as we try to degas our wine.
* As car-boy noted with his hardware / 25 inchesHg vacuum (0.16 atmosphere, ie 16% of normal pressure) it will take an hour to an hour and a half to get to the point where there isn’t an obvious release of gas bubbles. I am not surprised. All the equilibriums are being whacked out of balance and the 5 gallon mass will slow things down.

We have a fast way to do degassing when we vacuum transfer or a slow gentle way just by pulling a vacuum and even a more gentle way if we let it volitalize naturally at one atmosphere.
* All in all how anxious are we? , , The risk from racking/ transferring is that in the process we are exposing the wine to a new atmosphere which contains oxygen. This will follow the gas law like CO2 and some will dissolve. As with losing some alcohol we know it does happen , , but we probably wouldn’t be able to saturate the wine with oxygen, , just religiously added sulphites to take care of this, , and try to not over do the racking treatment.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 14, 2019)

Carboy-Boy said:


> When I started using the vac pump did a little research. What I found was that ethanol vaporizes at 172 degrees F at sea level, at 25 in Hg it will vaporize at 79 degrees F. My wine is in the 64 - 66 degrees F range so no matter how long the degas process (at this temperature) the alcohol content should not be affected. At least that is the assumption I've been going on!



I don't think you have a big problem with your practices, but let me point out a problem in your reasoning. Let's consider water. It boils at 212F at sea level. Is it also your assumption, then, that if you set a dish of water out on your kitchen counter at 70F, it will never, ever dry out?

In your post, you used the word "vaporize" to mean, I believe, "boil." Essentially, there is nothing "special" about the boiling temperature. It is just the temperature where the partial pressure matches the ambient pressure. Liquids actually _do_ vaporize at temperatures below the boiling temperature; they just do it more slowly.


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## Carboy-Boy (Mar 14, 2019)

Thanks "Rice-Guy" and "Sour_Grapes" for your respective physics explanations! Just glad you didn't "burst-my-bubble", so to speak!


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## cmason1957 (Mar 14, 2019)

I just can't get over that 60-90 minutes time frame. Not sure I would want to expose my wine to that pressure for that long. I think I'll stick with racking 3 or 4 times with a vacuum pump and being generous a total of 15 minutes and there is no more CO2. With appropriate levels of SO2, I don't worry about the Oxygen that may get in (and some say it's good for it to get into the wine). Each to their own.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 14, 2019)

I was able to get ahold of *Daniel Pambianchi* this afternoon. I asked him some questions about boiling the alcohol while degassing with a vacuum pump.

These are his exact words- "I imagine it is possible depending on the vacuum" -from *Daniel Pambianchi*

So I would like to take all the *MUMBO JUMBO and theories* and put it to the *real test *- 

I would take 190 (corrected from 195 ) proof grain alcohol and put it under vacuum and see if bubbles start forming, proving that it is actually boiling. 

I will be using a similar A/C professional vacuum pump without any regulators as shown in the picture (post 38 )

The elevation where I will be testing is Chicago - area /Elevation = 732 feet 

There is no CO2 in grain alcohol - as CO2 will only attach to water not alcohol 

I would like comments regarding this test - prior to me doing it.


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## Mrose (Mar 14, 2019)

My thinking would be if 195 proof PGA had 29inch of vac applied that it would boil off whatever water was left in the alcohol raising the proof. Thoughts


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 14, 2019)

Mrose said:


> My thinking would be if 195 proof PGA had 29inch of vac applied that it would boil off whatever water was left in the alcohol raising the proof. Thoughts


Alcohol boils at a lower temperature than water. So the alcohol will boil first


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## sour_grapes (Mar 14, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> So I would like to take all the *MUMBO JUMBO and theories* and put it to the *real test *-
> 
> I would take 195 proof grain alcohol and put it under vacuum and see if bubbles start forming, proving that it is actually boiling.



Exactly what "mumbo jumbo" do you refer to?

First of all, I believe you mean 190 proof grain alcohol. I am not aware of 195 proof being available. I am _not _nitpicking. There is a reason that the value is 190 proof, as you will see. 

Secondly, a test of 190 proof alcohol is not at all relevant to those of us who are interested in winemaking. You need to understand the entire _effing _reason that the spirit you can buy at the liquor store is 190 proof. It is because that ratio is the ethanol-water azeotrope. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope) With that ratio of ethanol to water, the exact same amount of water comes out of solution as ethanol upon heating. So, as you distill the solution, the ratio of the distillate remains the same; it is not possible to distill liquor to a higher concentration than that. Please read the Wikipedia page I referenced, and after you have understood it, submit any further questions for clarification.

You should also recognize that the elevation of Chicago is irrelevant to this question. I have explained this to you in the past. If you have lost this communication, or need a refresher, please let me know.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> Exactly what "mumbo jumbo" do you refer to?
> 
> First of all, I believe you mean 190 proof grain alcohol. I am not aware of 195 proof being available. I am _not _nitpicking. There is a reason that the value is 190 proof, as you will see.
> 
> ...




Yes you are correct about being 190 proof instead of 195 - MY bad typo 

I believe the test is to see if you are pulling bubbles out of a carboy using vacuum for 60-90 minutes = what is it ? If you remove the CO2 ( like using 190 proof everclear) and you still get bubbling action - then we can eliminate the idea of CO2 being released. CORRECT ?


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## porkchopmessiah (Mar 15, 2019)

Alcohol boils at 174 f at sea level, with 28 in hg or 13.75 psi of suction it only drops to 93 degrees ....seems like a moot point since you shouldnt put that much vaccum on glass....to get boiling at room temp would seem inherently dangerous


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> Alcohol boils at 174 f at sea level, with 28 in hg or 13.75 psi of suction it only drops to 93 degrees ....seems like a moot point since you shouldnt put that much vaccum on glass....to get boiling at room temp would seem inherently dangerous



I agree ^ that you do not have to put that much vacuum on glass to remove the CO2 - 

This is exactly the point I would like to make - 

I did find that there are lower boiling points in wine other than Ethanol - which would start to bubble first =

Acetone – 56.5C (134F)
Methanol (wood alcohol) – 64C (147F)
Ethyl acetate – 77.1C (171F)
Ethanol – 78C (172F)


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## sour_grapes (Mar 15, 2019)

I am not sure where the idea that ethanol does not dissolve CO2 is coming from. Ethanol can dissolve about 3 times as much CO2 as water can.

But back to thinking about the liquids: Again, you can evaporate a liquid without boiling it. So, yes, I agree that if you remove the partial pressure of water and/or alcohol in the headspace, you will evaporate water and/or alcohol from your wine. Again, this could be done with a vacuum pump, or it could be done by leaving a glass of wine on your kitchen counter on a warm, dry day. You don't need to see a bubble for evaporation to happen. 

Now, let's think about what it should mean if you DO see a bubble. Does that mean it is alcohol? No, it doesn't. Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine you have a bottle of pure ethanol, and you are drawing a vacuum on it, but you are at a pressure/temperature combination that is below the boiling point. The atmosphere (i.e., the headspace) will be full of ethanol vapor. Now, let's say an omnipotent being freezes time, goes into the bottle, and injects a bubble of pure ethanol vapor, then restarts time. What will happen to that bubble? Answer: it will collapse, and the vapor will re-condense into the liquid phase. It will not rise up to the surface. The vapor pressure of the ethanol inside the bubble is not high enough to withstand the pressure that the liquid exerts on it, so it collapses. (The _definition_ of boiling is when the vapor pressure _is_ high enough that the bubble does not collapse.)

So, in the real world, if you see a bubble during degassing (and you are not boiling the whole vessel) it is not a bubble of alcohol. It was some dissolved gas coming out of solution.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Paul - so does 190 proof ever clear (bought from the store ) have CO2 in it ?


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2019)

Steve, if you really want to know if you can vacuum alcohol out of wine, then set up a test on a real wine. Take a sample out of a carboy and label it as the original sample. Vacuum the carboy for 5 minutes, take a sample and label it accordingly. Continue down that path maybe with a half hour vacuum sample, a one hour vacuum sample, 2 hours, whatever. 

When you're done collecting all of the various timed vacuum samples, send the samples off to an appropriate testing facility to have the alcohol content analyzed, then you can know.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Thank you Johnd. For a simple solution.

I did not want to go down that route because it might be referred as distilling and I know that it is not allowed on this forum. 

I only wanted to prove that taking full vacuum on a carboy for 60 -90 minutes. That you are not still removing CO2 from the wine.

So the real question would be - how would you know when you have removed the CO2 from your wine using this method and not transferring under vacuum ?


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## porkchopmessiah (Mar 15, 2019)

Couldn't you just float the hydrometer I the carboy and forget abou the lab, watching specific gravity climb higher after bottoming out after fermentation as alcohol is being removed? It would get back to 1.00 eventually right? Assuming your dealing with wine...in your everclear scenario (even with wine) you should start to see a decent amount of change in volume as you start remove parts of the solution.
Yes? No? Maybe?


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## sour_grapes (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Paul - so does 190 proof ever clear (bought from the store ) have CO2 in it ?



I don't know. I would imagine it would have at least 0.04% (like the atmosphere does).


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> I don't know. I would imagine it would have at least 0.04% (like the atmosphere does).


Thank you , 

So if I took vacuum to it - I will probably not pull much if any co2 from it - correct ?

I wonder what the percentage of co2 in young wine that not has been degassed of the CO2


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## sour_grapes (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I only wanted to prove that taking full vacuum on a carboy for 60 -90 minutes. That you are not still removing CO2 from the wine.
> 
> So the real question would be - how would you know when you have removed the CO2 from your wine using this method and not transferring under vacuum ?



When I first started playing with vacuum degassing, I pumped on my carboys for a long time. I kept seeing bubbles. I used a half-filled carboy so that I could slosh the liquid around, each slosh causing more bubbling. I was disappointed, as this seemed to go on forever (~30 minutes). My vacuum pump has an outlet hose, so I decided to "sample" the gas coming off. The gas coming off was acrid and biting -- CO2, I am pretty sure.

HOWEVER, there wasn't much of it. It took me an embarrassingly long hour or so to realize that the bubbles did not contain much gas. Although a bubble might be the size of a pea or a marble or so, I was at such a low pressure that there was not much actual _stuff_ in the bubble.


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## Swedeman (Mar 15, 2019)

It is well documented that low fermentation temperature, due to less vigorous fermentation, preserve wine flavor as less volatile compounds is lost. Applying vacuum seems less attractive to me for the very same reason, any thoughts on that?

"First of all, I believe you mean 190 proof grain alcohol. I am not aware of 195 proof being available"
FWIW, even 200 proof is available https://us.vwr.com/store/product/16763162/ethanol-anhydrous-99-9-200-proof


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Swedeman said:


> It is well documented that low fermentation temperature, due to less vigorous fermentation, preserve wine flavor as less volatile compounds is lost. Applying vacuum seems less attractive to me for the very same reason, any thoughts on that?
> 
> "First of all, I believe you mean 190 proof grain alcohol. I am not aware of 195 proof being available"
> FWIW, even 200 proof is available https://us.vwr.com/store/product/16763162/ethanol-anhydrous-99-9-200-proof


Thanks for the correction as I stated above that it was a typo - referring to the 190 proof - I will correct it now 

I agree that taking straight vacuum on a vessel is probably not good for the wine. 

But this is how we learn - by actual examples and field testing.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 15, 2019)

Swedeman said:


> "First of all, I believe you mean 190 proof grain alcohol. I am not aware of 195 proof being available"
> FWIW, even 200 proof is available https://us.vwr.com/store/product/16763162/ethanol-anhydrous-99-9-200-proof



Obviously. I meant you cannot get potable alcohol to higher than 190 proof via distillation.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> But this is how we learn - by actual examples and field testing.



Yes. Or by reading about the accounts of others who did careful field testing. (Sometimes known by the nickname "experiments.")


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> So the real question would be - how would you know when you have removed the CO2 from your wine using this method and not transferring under vacuum ?



From my kit wine days, it's pretty simple. Starting with a wine at the appropriate temps for degassing, 75F - ish, when the little bitty CO2 bubbles quit coming out of solution and are replaced by the bigger bubbles that Paul refers to above, the wine is degassed. Normally in just a few minutes this occurs. You can easily be confirm the presence or absence of CO2, regardless of how you degas, (vacuum pump, whipping, multiple AIO rackings, etc.) by the "poof test" or a simple tasting of the wine for confirmation. 

Today, in practice, since I only do grape wines, degassing is no longer an activity in my winemaking, as my wine sits for years in barrels and there's no chance of CO2 making that journey.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

thanks Johnd, 
I felt the same way about the size if the bubbles that were forming.

if you look in the picture that is in question - it shows large bubbles and no regulator and degassing for 60-90 minutes. 

I don't want the new Winemaker thinking this is a normal procedure - unless we can confirm that it is ?

And making sure that it is a safe practice also (added after initial post )


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 15, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> I am not sure where the idea that ethanol does not dissolve CO2 is coming from. Ethanol can dissolve about 3 times as much CO2 as water can.
> 
> But back to thinking about the liquids: Again, you can evaporate a liquid without boiling it. So, yes, I agree that if you remove the partial pressure of water and/or alcohol in the headspace, you will evaporate water and/or alcohol from your wine. Again, this could be done with a vacuum pump, or it could be done by leaving a glass of wine on your kitchen counter on a warm, dry day. You don't need to see a bubble for evaporation to happen.
> 
> ...


*Good science!*
over all I laugh at some of the above with “are we trying to count the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin”
* It is normal to have some CO2 in our wine/ grain alcohol/ soda that has sat on the counter over night/ etc. The question should be does it matter? My answer is if it is high enough to change the hedonic quality yup, example 2 atmospheres of CO2 in soda will change the pH about 2 lower, we flavor profile this as tingly/ acidic/ carbonic so it matters, positively if it is soda or champagne and negatively if it is still wine and we don’t want a cork popping off.
* it is normal to have a variety of molecules come off in any evaporation. If I was running a vacuum still collecting vitamin E yup I also collected a good slug of fatty acids and triglycerides. Same if we have vacuum with alcohol. I know it is there but did it matter?
* with degassing in a vacuum yup it goes fast and yup when I started on an empty carboy I was saturating with oxygen at maybe 5 or 10 inches Hg, , when the carboy is full the atmosphere can be assumed to be saturated CO2 so at that point we know it doesn’t matter.
* All process systems are dynamic, wine is a dirty environment (ex the solids in wine will decrease solubility of CO2 by a few ppm) . YES there is CO2 in ALL naturally occurring wines even if it has been run through a AI1 3 times or 300 times. , , , and if it doesn’t change the flavor it didn’t matter. At some point the risk from oxygen exposure by another trip through the vacuum degassing is greater than the gain so we stop.
I may be lazy with a cup of coffee ant the tv on so 90 minutes is nothing or I may hook a $10 vacuum pump from amazon up and let it run over night and again the time means nothing, , , compared to the effort of sanitizing a carboy, sanitizing tubing and knowing that a few ppm of O2 was added as I started the operation.


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> thanks Johnd,
> I felt the same way about the size if the bubbkes that were forming.
> 
> if you look in the picture that is in question - it shows large bubbles and no regulator and degassing for 60-90 minutes.
> ...



I can't say that I ever have, or would, vacuum my wine that long, but still don't believe that even that would remove any appreciable amount of alcohol from the base wine, sure would be interesting to know............


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Thank you ,
> 
> So if I took vacuum to it - I will probably not pull much if any co2 from it - correct ?
> 
> I wonder what the percentage of co2 in young wine that not has been degassed of the CO2


The technical answer is that the CO2 is in equilibrium with the wine.

If I went to Henry’s law the solubility = K(constant) X partial pressure

Partial pressure = atmospheres X percentage

* Therefore on a new wine which is degassing there is back pressure on the air lock and the percent of CO2 could be close to 100 percent and we could guess that the the wine is saturated with 1 atmosphere of CO2.
* the magic of any vacuum pump is that it will decrease the atmospheres of pressure and we push the equilibrium lower (linear with the % vacuum, per formula above)
* The magic of running through a vacuum transfer is that the droplet size is reduced (significantly below 5 gallon) therefore we can assume that we are in equilibrium as stated by the gas law, now and at every instant time. The wine will seek the same equilibrium with atmospheric pressure but get to equilibrium faster.
* Steve I don’t like calc enough (dynamic system modeling) that I lay awake at night wondering but the engineering profs train us to know what the dynamic processes are and then consider risk/ benefit.
For talking with vacuum customers (or a boss with a marketing degree) the key thing to get say is that “the effect is linear with the pressures”, , , , so talking in percent of atmosphere is easy to understand.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I can't say that I ever have, or would, vacuum my wine that long, but still don't believe that even that would remove any appreciable amount of alcohol from the base wine, sure would be interesting to know............


That is one of the main reasons that we developed the allinonewinepump.
To safely remove the CO2 without putting the carboy at risk of excessive vacuum pressures.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> if you look in the picture that is in question - it shows large bubbles and no regulator and degassing for 60-90 minutes.



This may be the source of miscommunication. I certainly did not think that picture was taken after an hour of degassing. I think @Carboy-Boy was demonstrating the "explosive" phase early in the process. @Carboy-Boy , can you clarify?



> To safely remove the CO2 without putting the carboy at risk of excessive vacuum pressures.



I have never understood the thinking behind this, which you read often here on WMT. This is just like saying "I'll park a 5000 pound truck on my driveway, but I'd never park a 5800 lb truck there! Don't want to crack that driveway!"


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> So the real question would be - how would you know when you have removed the CO2 from your wine using this method and not transferring under vacuum ?


There will be essentially the same ppm of CO2 in both cases.

My experience , and apparently yours , is that a regulator is valuable so I don’t create a mess of froth and spend an afternoon cleaning the pump head out.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Rice_Guy said:


> There will be essentially the same ppm of CO2 in both cases.
> 
> My experience , and apparently yours , is that a regulator is valuable so I don’t create a mess of froth and spend an afternoon cleaning the pump head out.


I believe you forgot to add the content where that was intended for.

Here is the beginning of it = 

Comparing types of degassing methods and effectiveness 


I only wanted to prove that taking full vacuum on a carboy for 60 -90 minutes. That you are not still removing CO2 from the wine.

So the real question would be - how would you know when you have removed the CO2 from your wine using this method and not transferring under vacuum ?


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 15, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> I just can't get over that 60-90 minutes time frame. Not sure I would want to expose my wine to that pressure for that long. I think I'll stick with racking 3 or 4 times with a vacuum pump and being generous a total of 15 minutes and there is no more CO2. With appropriate levels of SO2, I don't worry about the Oxygen that may get in (and some say it's good for it to get into the wine). Each to their own.


This isn’t pressure, it is vacuum.

If you are not willing to expose you wine to a vacuum For 90 minutes, you should never use a hand pumped ‘vacuum wine preserver’ (mine will pull -0.5 atmosphere) for a week in the fridge or a “Headspace eliminator” (the suction bulb ‘indicator’ will suck in at -0.16 atmosphere) for a month in a carboy.

? ? I thought vacuum was accepted ? ?


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Rice_Guy said:


> This isn’t pressure, it is vacuum.
> 
> If you are not willing to expose you wine to a vacuum you should never use a hand pumped ‘vacuum wine preserver’ (mine will pull 0.5 atmosphere) or a “Headspace eliminator” (the suction bulb ‘indicator’ will suck in at 0.16 atmosphere)
> ? ? I thought vacuum was accepted ? ?


Let's please not try and nic pick , not all of us use all the same type of language 

He did say he uses a vacuum pump to degass as he is transferring - correct ? 

This was taken from Google 

Vacuum units can be defined in two ways. In common language, it is taken as negative pressure below standard atmospheric. Units commonly used are mm of Hg, or inches of Hg below this reference.


Notice negative PRESSURE IS USED


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I believe you forgot to add the content where that was intended for.
> 
> Here is the beginning of it =
> 
> ...



*The gas law does not care if you are vacuum racking.
*
The equilibrium level of CO2 will be the same. The difference in the two methods is the size of particle/ droplet permits us to assume that we reach equilibrium essentially instantly if we create droplets. If we reduce pressure such that foam isn’t a big issue we have larger particles (1/4 inch stream) and we know we aren’t actually at equilibrium and the eventual equilibrium we are working against is located at roughly 0.5 atmosphere.
In the scheme of things commercial folks find that an equilibrium based on 1.0 atmosphere is good enough, , , so it again says the main gain is time.[/QUOTE]


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## cmason1957 (Mar 15, 2019)

Rice_Guy said:


> This isn’t pressure, it is vacuum.
> 
> If you are not willing to expose you wine to a vacuum you should never use a hand pumped ‘vacuum wine preserver’ (mine will pull 0.5 atmosphere) or a “Headspace eliminator” (the suction bulb ‘indicator’ will suck in at 0.16 atmosphere)
> ? ? I thought vacuum was accepted ? ?



Yes, sorry, I used the wrong word. It happens, I believe the intent of what I said is still valid. I will say I don't even own a wine preserver, bottles opened are consumed around here. I do use headspace eliminaters, but there is a significant difference, I very seldom get any bubbles coming out of suspension after I turn off the pump and really don't get many when I first vacuum it up. I'm not at all against vacuums, but the amount of vacuum plus the time involved seems to be not a good combination. And I think we may have beaten this horse well past it's usefulness.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 15, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> . And I think we may have beaten this horse well past it's usefulness.



Depends what you consider ‘useful’. In terms of keeping me entertained this thread has been incredibly useful [emoji3]


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## stickman (Mar 15, 2019)

We're done? I haven't even chimed in, man I missed the whole thing.


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## Ajmassa (Mar 15, 2019)

stickman said:


> We're done? I haven't even chimed in, man I missed the whole thing.


 What would YOU know about PRESSURE?


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Let's please not try and nic pick , not all of us use all the same type of language



I think that’s nitpick, with a “t”, not a “c”..................


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Johnd said:


> I think that’s nitpick, with a “t”, not a “c”..................



Ok - whos going to be the grammar police here ? 

Just take me in now ! ! Big fingers and small keyboards ( or worse yet the PHONE )


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> Ok - whos going to be the grammar police here ?
> 
> Just take me in now ! ! Big fingers and small keyboards ( or worse yet the PHONE )



LOL!!!! You know I was just kidding around....couldn’t resist!!


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Johnd said:


> LOL!!!! You know I was just kidding around....couldn’t resist!!



If you can"t have fun - Then I guess it is time for a Glass of Wine - or maybe more - LOL


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## Johnd (Mar 15, 2019)

vacuumpumpman said:


> If you can"t have fun - Then I guess it is time for a Glass of Wine - or maybe more - LOL



We had some friends over last night, drank 3 magnums and 6 750’s, I’m drying out today, at least until dark.....


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 15, 2019)

stickman said:


> We're done? I haven't even chimed in, man I missed the whole thing.


The web is *BAD* when the wife gets home tonight she is going to ask what did I do today?  _Well honey was on the web, didn’t do anything.



vacuumpumpman said:



If you can"t have fun - Then I guess it is time for a Glass of Wine - or maybe more - LOL

Click to expand...

_
Ought to get out of pajamas and do something useful . . . Could tell her I was playing with heating pex on the gas stove, , , *not smart to say that. * Steve did you want me to put a vacuum corking tool together for you?


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 15, 2019)

Please ,
I did post it on this forum about an hour ago or so

here is the post = 
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/vacuum-wine-corker-5-dollars.68724/

Congratulations


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## Scooter68 (Mar 21, 2019)

I find it hard to believe that a properly aged wine will retain any appreciable CO2 after 12 months or more in a carboy with an airlock. 

So I have never found any 'bite' or evidence of gas in my wines at bottling time - even after 9 months of aging on a few.


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## Rice_Guy (Mar 21, 2019)

Scooter68 said:


> I find it hard to believe that a properly aged wine will retain any appreciable CO2 after 12 months or more in a carboy with an airlock.
> 
> So I have never found any 'bite' or evidence of gas in my wines at bottling time - even after 9 months of aging on a few.


*SYNERGISTIC EFFECT *
_*I* have found that if I age 9 months or a year at basement temp I have starved the yeast and can skip sorbate._


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 21, 2019)

Rice_Guy said:


> *SYNERGISTIC EFFECT *
> _*I* have found that if I age 9 months or a year at basement temp I have starved the yeast and can skip sorbate._


How can u skip sorbate ?

Will it not start fermentation at some point of time ?


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## cmason1957 (Mar 21, 2019)

Rice_Guy said:


> *SYNERGISTIC EFFECT *
> _*I* have found that if I age 9 months or a year at basement temp I have starved the yeast and can skip sorbate._



I would not trust this effect, myself and wouldn't consider it best practices to encourage others to follow. Short of pushing the alcohol up very high, only sure ways to be certain of no further fermentation in a sweet wine are 1) Sterile filtration 0.45 micron absolute or tighter and 2) add potassium sorbate to act as birth control for the yeast and prevent further budding and risk of refermentation.


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## joecopp (May 19, 2019)

bkisel said:


> Been at this for 3 years now with 25 or so kits and fruit wines under my belt. The Vacuvin (I'm on my second one) is a pain in the butt to use for degassing 6 gallon carboys but it does get the job done.


Wow, that's a lot of wine you're making there. Wish I was a neighbor in good standing


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## Rice_Guy (May 20, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> I would not trust this effect, myself and wouldn't consider it best practices to encourage others to follow. Short of pushing the alcohol up very high, only sure ways to be certain of no further fermentation in a sweet wine are 1) Sterile filtration 0.45 micron absolute or tighter and 2) add potassium sorbate to act as birth control for the yeast and prevent further budding and risk of refermentation.


Yeast is easier to kill than some potential bacterial contaminants. Basically wine is a multi variable preservative system. Wine is a complicated food product since combining two or three variables will change how lethal adding a third or fourth factor is. Decreasing a variable as targeting 8% alcohol will make the system less lethal on all other preservative factors, or storing the wine at 40 to. 45F (or a garage in winter) will lengthen the time needed to kill yeast.
I will assume most folks here do not read the Journal of Viticulture and Enology so you probably correct about best practices. From a practical point it probably is worth while to be aware how to kill yeast since some combinations will unintentionally produce a stuck fermentation. 
A few ways to kill yeast
3- Pasteurize as at 120F for one hour or 140F for ten minutes or 250F for ten seconds (or 98 for a week or so)
4- Use a yeast which does not tolerate high alcohol ex an ale yeast
5- eliminate nutrients as nitrogen 
6- cold shock, one of the speakers at winemaker mag conference suggested a one hour/ quick 10 C temperature drop from 80F (optimum growth temp), to 45 or 50F
7- high CO2 (basically changes pH)
8- reducing the pH
9- SO2 shock
10- increased osmotic pressure usually with sugar but salts do this too (and alcohol as you noted)
11- high pressure as 2000 psig for one minute
Each of the processing treatments will require some care as filtering at 0.45 micron and then contamination afterwards with hoses or in a poorly sanitized bottle filler/ bottling tank still produces a risk, or using sorbate which has been exposed to humidity will degrade a portion of the chemical. , , , ie all methods will have some risk, , , some we have yet to learn about ex when I was a kid food processors didn’t really worry about listeria and public health worry about misting systems containing legionnaires disease.


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## winemanden (Oct 12, 2021)

It's all matter of taste and time. Take it easy, build up your stock, then you can take the time to sit and enjoy a glass of what no one else in the world has made.
⚠ Gas? What gas?

PS. There's a shortage of CO2 in the UK. Send some over.


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