# Frozen pails of must...are they worth it?



## crushday (Nov 16, 2019)

I am strongly considering buying a couple of frozen must pails to compare to various high end wine kits. Looking at a popular frozen must site, each pail costs between $250-400. Shipping would be added to the cost.

Each pail of red grape produces 3.5 gallons of wine, on average. To match the quantity of a wine kit, I'd need two buckets with some finished wine to spare. Considering the cost, I'd be looking at $13-22 a bottle for the wine, not including any shipping. The finished cost of a wine kit is right around the $5-6 mark.

I would start the frozen must, likely a Cab, at the same time with high end kits from WE, RJS, CC and MM.

I'm willing to try this, but looking for honest feedback related to the quality of the finished wine of a frozen must bucket. Is it worth it?


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## cmason1957 (Nov 16, 2019)

Frozen must should always produce a higher quality end result than a wine kit. But how much better, that's harder to say. I suppose in theory it will be just like starting with crushed grapes, that have had a long cold soak. But it will take more work than a kit. Acid adjustment, mlf, to name two. I always look at the price of the frozen and decide it can't be that much better. But I'm a cheapskate.


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## jsbeckton (Nov 16, 2019)

There is a ongoing thread on this:

Fresh grapes vs Brehms must
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/index.php?threads/Fresh-grapes-vs-Brehms-must.68639/


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## crushday (Nov 16, 2019)

@jsbeckton - thanks for pointing me to the other thread. Although I read lots of great information on that thread, my question really isn't about the differences between fresh grapes vs. frozen. Rather, if the cost of the frozen must has any appreciable effect on the palate compared to high end wine kits.


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## jsbeckton (Nov 16, 2019)

crushday said:


> @jsbeckton - thanks for pointing me to the other thread. Although I read lots of great information on that thread, my question really isn't about the differences between fresh grapes vs. frozen. Rather, if the cost of the frozen must has any appreciable effect on the palate compared to high end wine kits.



I think the latter half of that thread has some questions if the high cost is due to convenience or superior quality. I haven’t seen anything to lead me to conclude it’s not primarily convenience but I have never actually tried it. Seems there is a fairly limited experience with those buckets on this forum.


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## CDrew (Nov 16, 2019)

I think it was @stickman who put up pictures of his Brehm buckets of must, and it was as beautiful as any fresh grape must I have ever seem. The freezing might even help extract some of the color and flavor from the grapeskins.

Here's one: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/2017-cab-blends.62595/

I would *guess* Brehm frozen must makes a far superior wine to any kit. There would be no concern about odd isomers of organic acids, cooked flavors and/or other added chemicals, and you as the wine maker would have far more control for better or worse.

But your avatar says Pacific Northwest. Just get grapes next year in the Washington wine country. I'll bet you find inexpensive sources that exist there, just like they do here in Norcal.


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## mainshipfred (Nov 16, 2019)

CDrew said:


> I think it was @stickman who put up pictures of his Brehm buckets of must, and it was as beautiful as any fresh grape must I have ever seem. The freezing might even help extract some of the color and flavor from the grapeskins.
> 
> Here's one: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/2017-cab-blends.62595/
> 
> ...



I agree, there are a lot of good grape growing regions. The problem is unless you build some kind of relationship with the vineyard or winery they typically don't like to sell to home winemakers.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 16, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I agree, there are a lot of good grape growing regions. The problem is unless you build some kind of relationship with the vineyard or winery they typically don't like to sell to home winemakers.



That other thread was about the benefit of knowing you are buying top quality. Started after selecting supposedly quality grapes that came in less than expected. 

Comparing to high end kits is different. 
The $5-$6 bottle high end kit vs
The $15-$20 bottle frozen must

Estimating market value- highest end Kit ceiling around $20? Maybe $30 max?
But High end must ceiling theoretically could be 100pts with price of who knows. 
*Keeping value ratio equal for the sake of the convo- What are you reaching for 1st:
the $25 wine for $5 
Or
The $100 wine for $20?
How bout $50 wine for $20?


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## stickman (Nov 16, 2019)

Value is always a question, I guess you have to start by asking yourself what wine would you buy at the store and what would you be willing to pay. I found a few articles (WBM) about wineries using the Caldwell grapes, and they give a little bit of information about their wine making techniques, the resulting wines are not cheap. It still doesn't mean that the grapes or wine deliver value for everyone, my sister can afford more, but rarely spends more than $10/bottle.


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## Ajmassa (Nov 16, 2019)

stickman said:


> I found a few articles (WBM) about wineries using the Caldwell grapes, and they give a little bit of information about their wine making techniques, the resulting wines are not cheap.



Caldwell is one of the most interesting vineyard/winery’s I’ve read about. They seem much more forthcoming than most, and have quite the history. John Caldwell is a wildman. The “vine smuggler” lol. And gives a hell of an interview. HIGHLY recommend this “The Inside Winemaking Podcast”. 
*Disclaimer- more F-bombs than a Scorsese film. 


https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...st-with-jim-duane/id906249753?i=1000392573491


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## stickman (Nov 16, 2019)

Yea, I had listened to that interview before, it is funny. Some people in my family vacationed and stayed at Caldwell's and did the private tasting, heard it was very enjoyable.


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## crushday (Nov 16, 2019)

@stickman and @Ajmassa - very helpful information. Thanks for sharing!!


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## mainshipfred (Jan 13, 2020)

I was about to buy 2 pails of a Cab Franc from Brehm. The initial cost of $164.00 per pail plus shipping of $96.00 taking it to $424.00 for at the most 7 gallons of wine. It's just something I can't justify even though I really want a 2019 Cab Franc.


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## crushday (Jan 13, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I was about to buy 2 pails of a Cab Franc from Brehm. The initial cost of $164.00 per pail plus shipping of $96.00 taking it to $424.00 for at the most 7 gallons of wine. It's just something I can't justify even though I really want a 2019 Cab Franc.


Looks like Collinwood Grape Company has 2019 California Cab Franc frozen juice in 6 gallon buckets for $68. Not frozen must, but pressed juice. It's on their retail order form in the "Premium Reserve" column. This might be an option for you...


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 13, 2020)

, , , yes frozen buckets are worth it . . . but $13 to $20/bottle. . . WOW. ! !


crushday said:


> . . . . each pail costs between $250-400. . . . . Is it worth it?


@manshipfred
Northern Brewer and the local wine toys store will sell a fall crop pre ordered bucket for about $90
There are two Chicago region clubs that will sell a pre ordered fall or spring buckets for about $50. 
The local fruit market/banana company is at clean the freezer out season so I am planning on going to visit to check if there are any left over buckets that could be bargained down to $25-30. 
, , ,guess I don’t appreciate the need to start wine in January enough.


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## Johnd (Jan 13, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I was about to buy 2 pails of a Cab Franc from Brehm. The initial cost of $164.00 per pail plus shipping of $96.00 taking it to $424.00 for at the most 7 gallons of wine. It's just something I can't justify even though I really want a 2019 Cab Franc.



It’s on the pricey side, and shipping only accentuates the problem, particularly when compared to fresh grapes. I got that amount CF grapes this year for 120 bucks. That said, I made wine at or near that price point for years, only considering the cost per bottle, and 12 bucks a bottle isn’t bad if you compare it to the commercial market and put a little value on the enjoyment you get from the activity. Plus, the Brehm fruit is probably better than most.....


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## mainshipfred (Jan 14, 2020)

@crushday and @Rice_Guy, thank you, it's just juice buckets just don't interest me anymore. I've made OK wines with them but nothing compared to using grapes but I do appreciate your recommendations.

@Johnd, I have debated the argument of the value of your time and to me it has no value with a hobby or other interests. You are correct in the value is the enjoyment of the process and hopefully a fine finished wine. I agree Brehm is probably quality product and the extended cold soak can't do anything but help. I just can't bring myself to pay that much.


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## Johnd (Jan 14, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> @Johnd, I have debated the argument of the value of your time and to me it has no value with a hobby or other interests. You are correct in the value is the enjoyment of the process and hopefully a fine finished wine. I agree Brehm is probably quality product and the extended cold soak can't do anything but help. I just can't bring myself to pay that much.



Understand precisely where you’re coming from, same rationale I use now that I CAN get fresh CA grapes yearly, and at a great price point. There aren’t options for grapes in S LA like other places in the country, before I had developed a supply chain opportunity, though pricey, it was a good option. It’d be hard for me to do now.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 14, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Understand precisely where you’re coming from, same rationale I use now that I CAN get fresh CA grapes yearly, and at a great price point. There aren’t options for grapes in S LA like other places in the country, before I had developed a supply chain opportunity, though pricey, it was a good option. It’d be hard for me to do now.



I am fortunate to live in a fairly decent wine region and through networking am able to get freshly picked grapes from several vineyards. The other advantage to the networking is similar to you and I am able to get quality fruit from other areas through my contacts, not to mention the local wine making group and local wine grape companies.


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## Chuck E (Jan 14, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Understand precisely where you’re coming from, same rationale I use now that I CAN get fresh CA grapes yearly, and at a great price point. There aren’t options for grapes in S LA like other places in the country, before I had developed a supply chain opportunity, though pricey, it was a good option. It’d be hard for me to do now.



I wonder if you can elaborate on the supply chain development process? Maybe we could work on that in our different geographic areas.


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## Johnd (Jan 14, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> I wonder if you can elaborate on the supply chain development process? Maybe we could work on that in our different geographic areas.



We buy grapes from Colavita’s at a very good price and have them shipped with deliveries to nearby wineries, it’s been great so far. Prices on 36# lugs delivered to LA on refrigerated trucks have been under $40, not too shabby at all. 

The winery our stuff gets delivered to is sourcing from other places in WA and OR, he offered to let me into his buy up there as well.


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## Rice_Guy (Jan 15, 2020)

Chicago is a good place to source buckets, 36 pound lugs, and Minnesota hybrid grapes. Have you joined the Vinters club? or join two since the connections will be different.


Chuck E said:


> wonder if you can elaborate on the supply chain.


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## Johnd (Jan 15, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Chicago is a good place to source buckets, 36 pound lugs, and Minnesota hybrid grapes. Have you joined the Vinters club? or join two since the connections will be different.



In addition, it’s a hub for Brehm’s frozen must distribution, you could pick it up straight from their facility and save packing / shipping costs.......


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## ibglowin (Jan 15, 2020)

Does that really including shipping?



Johnd said:


> Prices on 36# lugs delivered to LA on refrigerated trucks have been under $40, not too shabby at all.


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## jburtner (Jan 15, 2020)

I'm also planning a shipment to Nashville from Colavita for next season as we approach. I believe that if they have a distributor in the area they'll send you through the distributor for small orders. If no distributor they can ship via LTL. I figure I'm spending a couple G's give or take each season (year) on frozen must and juice buckets. I have a small press so that'll have to do for next season but will need a crusher/de-stemmer and probably more bulk storage. Maybe a larger barrel and/or VCSS tank.

Cheers,
johann


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## buzi (Jan 15, 2020)

Johnd said:


> In addition, it’s a hub for Brehm’s frozen must distribution, you could pick it up straight from their facility and save packing / shipping costs.......




John, unfortunately Brehm does not have distribution here anymore. They closed the operation last year. They only sell out of Washington, Cali and Scranton PA...


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## Chuck E (Jan 15, 2020)

Rice_Guy said:


> Chicago is a good place to source buckets, 36 pound lugs, and Minnesota hybrid grapes. Have you joined the Vinters club? or join two since the connections will be different.



I know about the McHenry County Corkers. They sponsor a group purchase of Chilean juice in the spring. I probably should look around for more clubs. 
I can buy CA grapes locally in the fall from two sources.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 15, 2020)

There’s a Brehms hub in Scranton!? Hmmmm

Very very interesting. 

[the large ‘grinch’ smile slowly overtaking my face]


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## Johnd (Jan 15, 2020)

ibglowin said:


> Does that really including shipping?



Yes, it does. My lugs this year (prices were lower this year) were between $27 and $29 depending upon the varietal. I paid the winery owner $300 for allowing my 42 lugs to ride in his refrigerated delivery truck, $7.14 per lug, for a total cost of $34.14 to $36.14 per lug.


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## Johnd (Jan 15, 2020)

buzi said:


> John, unfortunately Brehm does not have distribution here anymore. They closed the operation last year. They only sell out of Washington, Cali and Scranton PA...



Really, didn’t know that, sorry for the misinformation.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 15, 2020)

The most recent blog post on the Brehm website is from November 2019. Mentions the Chicago freezer open and scheduled to be stocked for 2019 harvest as well as their brand new partner’s freezer location in Scranton PA.


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## ibglowin (Jan 15, 2020)

That is a sweet deal for sure. I was looking at my last invoice from 2105 from the Denver club I worked with. The club pretty much bought the entire lot from the vineyard owner. One full size refer truck. Cost for shipping 1200 miles from Acampo, CA to Denver, CO was $0.11/lb. Grapes were $1.03/lb for Cab Sauv or $37 a lug FOB origin. Is this the winery in Covington? They must buy a sh1t load to get a wholesale price of $0.80/lb FOB origin in 2019.



Johnd said:


> Yes, it does. My lugs this year (prices were lower this year) were between $27 and $29 depending upon the varietal. I paid the winery owner $300 for allowing my 42 lugs to ride in his refrigerated delivery truck, $7.14 per lug, for a total cost of $34.14 to $36.14 per lug.


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## Johnd (Jan 16, 2020)

ibglowin said:


> That is a sweet deal for sure. I was looking at my last invoice from 2105 from the Denver club I worked with. The club pretty much bought the entire lot from the vineyard owner. One full size refer truck. Cost for shipping 1200 miles from Acampo, CA to Denver, CO was $0.11/lb. Grapes were $1.03/lb for Cab Sauv or $37 a lug FOB origin. Is this the winery in Covington? They must buy a sh1t load to get a wholesale price of $0.80/lb FOB origin in 2019.



They’re located in the northern part of the state, they buy three semi’s full of grapes per year. 

But, I don’t buy from the winery, I buy from Colavita, direct, just little old me, same price you’d get if you called. Colavita turned me onto the winery as a place they ship to near me, and suggested I call them since this particular winery arranges their own shipping. So, I only have my grapes shipped with the winery grapes and pay the winery for freight, and am thankful.

I’ve said this before here, and I’ll say it again, Colavita cuts out all of the middle man BS. They buy vineyard direct, move a lot of fruit, and have some buying power. When they determine that fruit is ready to pick, their guys pick, pack, and load, they don’t pay someone else to do it. The grapes either ship from there or go to their facility prior to shipping, again, no middle man.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 16, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> There’s a Brehms hub in Scranton!? Hmmmm
> 
> Very very interesting.
> 
> [the large ‘grinch’ smile slowly overtaking my face]



It's a 4 hour one way trip for me and they are only open weekdays.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 16, 2020)

Johnd said:


> They’re located in the northern part of the state, they buy three semi’s full of grapes per year.
> 
> But, I don’t buy from the winery, I buy from Colavita, direct, just little old me, same price you’d get if you called. Colavita turned me onto the winery as a place they ship to near me, and suggested I call them since this particular winery arranges their own shipping. So, I only have my grapes shipped with the winery grapes and pay the winery for freight, and am thankful.
> 
> I’ve said this before here, and I’ll say it again, Colavita cuts out all of the middle man BS. They buy vineyard direct, move a lot of fruit, and have some buying power. When they determine that fruit is ready to pick, their guys pick, pack, and load, they don’t pay someone else to do it. The grapes either ship from there or go to their facility prior to shipping, again, no middle man.



I sent an email to Colavita's yesterday asking if they had any wineries in my area I could piggyback off of. Almost immediately I received a response letting me know of one 30 minutes from me. I asked if I could contact them and evidently they sent an email to the winery, I guess asking if I could contact them. Within the hour I received an email from the winery saying they would be happy to help. The Owner of the winery used to be a home winemaker turned commercial calling himself a Private Label. I'm not sure what that means but it appears they don't have a tasting room. He invited me to come by and talk about what my needs would be. I have many sources for grapes now and the opportunities just seem to be getting easier to find. I would have never even thought about calling Colavita without this thread, thanks.


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## buzi (Jan 16, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> The most recent blog post on the Brehm website is from November 2019. Mentions the Chicago freezer open and scheduled to be stocked for 2019 harvest as well as their brand new partner’s freezer location in Scranton PA. View attachment 58281




Hopefully they are bringing it back to Chicago! 2018/ early 2019 they had a closing sale for the Chicago warehouse and it is not on the order form for 2019. :-(. I sent the an email and we will find out for sure!

@Johnd no worries! That is not typically where you would order out of...


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## Ajmassa (Jan 16, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> It's a 4 hour one way trip for me and they are only open weekdays.



Just over 2 hours for me. 

If shipping costs are out of the equation then definitely opens up some options. 
I’m Looking at $650 for 12 gal of wine using $162 per pail. 

In 2018 I paid $68 per lug for grapes from Pintos. (Less than 1/2 Brehms, but double $ direct colavita shipping) but those grapes were a little disappointing. So Even though the Brehms must is still significantly more expensive, it becomes much more enticing to me without shipping for something I know for sure is a high quality product. 

With Colavita - I cant remember if I spoke with them or Collingswood previously about piggybacking on a closeby winery’s truck — but the issue was being limited to the winery’s order. For me I would have been forced to get grapes that were harvested at the same time of the winery’s order. And was told they are typically buying the lower priced grapes, while the higher quality grapes would not typically have been harvested yet. I didn’t get specific info on the grapes then because my main purpose wasn’t looking for a deal, it was looking for the highest quality grapes I could find. I’m very interested to hear more about what’s available. 
Colavita also supplies keystone HomeBrew. The markup seems to be quite a lot. But it’s so hard to compare anything without actually knowing the quality. Therein lies the appeal of Brehms.


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## mainshipfred (Jan 16, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> Just over 2 hours for me.
> 
> If shipping costs are out of the equation then definitely opens up some options.
> I’m Looking at $650 for 12 gal of wine using $162 per pail.
> ...



The quality of the grapes to a degree that's what is nice about S&S and Procassi, you get to see and test (at least for sugar) what the grapes are like. The disadvantage you can only get what they have.


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## Ajmassa (Jan 16, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> The quality of the grapes to a degree that's what is nice about S&S and Procassi, you get to see and test (at least for sugar) what the grapes are like. The disadvantage you can only get what they have.



Never pre-tested Procacci, although I never asked either. But I don’t complain there. Procacci I know what I’m gettin. 
But places like Pintos, Keystone, and late Harford are great because of options offered. My Paso clone#8 grapes were meh. But could have just as easily hit a homerun had I went with Lanza, LMP clone169, Amador Gold etc. But spending anywhere from $55-$80 a lug. 
The direct Colavita route is fantastic if the logistics can work out for quality fruit. And any way ya slice it- Brehms =substantially more $ with substantially less gamble for a proven winner. One day I know I’ll end up making the call and driving to Scranton on a whim lol


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## jburtner (Jan 16, 2020)

Colavita estimated maybe about $400 for an LTL reefer delivery to Nashville on a pallet of grapes which doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Another option to pick up at a winery may save a little on shipping but probably close enough to a wash for me.

Cheers!
-johann


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## buzi (Jan 16, 2020)

@Ajmassa 

Here is the email from them that I just received. It is a bit contradictory to what you found. Sounds like they may rent a freezer in the fall...

"Chris
The freezer closed. Folks who ordered during the fall had their grapes shipped to a freezer in south Chicago for pick=up.
From their they are picking up or having them shipped.
Please order in the August - October time frame.
We do have inventory in Scranton, PA. for pick up or shipment.
Best regards,
Peter Brehm"


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## Ajmassa (Jan 16, 2020)

Ahh. I understand now. Not exactly contradictory info. I just misinterpreted without knowing the existing structure in place before the change. 

Previous Chicago warehouse hub stocked year round -- no more
New south Chicago rented freezer for pre-ordered frozen must pickup/shipping hub —used in season
New freezer location in Scranton for pre-order pickup, shipping hub and a possible year round supply


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