# Chilean juice pail tweaks



## tradowsk (Mar 14, 2019)

I may be getting one or more 6-gallon juice pails of chilean syrah or malbec next month, and I wanted some thoughts on what if any tweaks I may need to do to these to get good quality wine. The grapes are shipped from Chile to a local winery which then presses them and sells the juice at $77 per pail for reds.

What yeast would you recommend? I usually use BM4x4 but my LHBS has a pretty good selection.
Do you add additional tannin? Pre- and/or post-ferment?
What are the target acid levels?
Any additional things to add to make a better final product?
I have some oak spirals I was planning to use and maybe some glycerin if it's a little thin.


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## cmason1957 (Mar 14, 2019)

If the local winery really is doing the press, I might ask if you could get some of the grape skins that they pressed the juice from to add to a bigger bucket (since they take up space). Many folks add a lug of grapes to a juice bucket. I would also add some sacrificial tannins to the mix pre-ferment to help set the color. Maybe some later, if you think they are needed. Acid levels, same as anything else around 3.6 for a PH and to taste for TA. Be prepared to inoculate with Malolactic Bacteria and let that run it's course. Oak for sure, both Syrah and Malbec can stand up to a good healthy oaking. BM4x4 is probably good enough, but I might consider SYR or AMH yeast for the Syrah. Oh and go get yourself a copy of morewinemaking red wine PDF, I'm sure I am missing some things off the top of my head.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 14, 2019)

There is more to it then just pressing the grapes, at least for reds. The juice has to be fermented on the skins to extract the tannins, color and everything else. When you buy processed juice buckets it is just that, processed juice and they never tell you what method was used. It could be they are selling buckets of crushed grapes which to me would make more sense and $77.00 per bucket is a good price. Other then that everyting Craig mentioned is a good idea.


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## tradowsk (Mar 14, 2019)

Thanks for the advice! I sent an email to the winery for more details, but they use a "nearby press pad" and offer the juice to home winemakers. They also use the same juice to make their own wines. Idk if I can get a bucket of skins to ferment with, we shall see.

But I'll definitely look into MLF. I haven't done it before since I do either fruit wines or kits, so this will be a new experience.


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## hdgypsyman (Mar 22, 2019)

I have pre-ordered two pails of South American Cabernet Juice from Midwest Supplies that will be here in April. I'd like to add grape skins to the ferment, but I am having trouble finding any compatible (Cab) grape skin packs. Does anyone have a good source?


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## mainshipfred (Mar 22, 2019)

hdgypsyman said:


> I have pre-ordered two pails of South American Cabernet Juice from Midwest Supplies that will be here in April. I'd like to add grape skins to the ferment, but I am having trouble finding any compatible (Cab) grape skin packs. Does anyone have a good source?



They might be hard to find. I think pre packaged skins are pretty generic. Maybe someone in your area has a source for fresh spring grapes.


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## Chuck E (Mar 22, 2019)

hdgypsyman said:


> I have pre-ordered two pails of South American Cabernet Juice from Midwest Supplies that will be here in April. I'd like to add grape skins to the ferment, but I am having trouble finding any compatible (Cab) grape skin packs. Does anyone have a good source?



Mosti Mondiale usually carries grape skins. I'm not sure if they are Cabernet grape skins.


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## hdgypsyman (Mar 22, 2019)

Do you have a working link to the Mosti Mondiale website? The ones from a google search seem to be broken......


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## mainshipfred (Mar 22, 2019)

hdgypsyman said:


> Do you have a working link to the Mosti Mondiale website? The ones from a google search seem to be broken......



It's my understanding you have to call them. Their website sucks


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## Chuck E (Mar 22, 2019)

hdgypsyman said:


> Do you have a working link to the Mosti Mondiale website? The ones from a google search seem to be broken......



http://mostimondiale.com/ 
But it seems to be under construction...


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## Chuck E (Mar 23, 2019)

hdgypsyman said:


> Do you have a working link to the Mosti Mondiale website? The ones from a google search seem to be broken......



Try this site: 
http://www.juicegrape.com/Mosti-Mondiale-All-Grape-Pack/


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## BMarNJ (Mar 23, 2019)

I am new to wine making and also just ordered a pail of chilean cabernet. My supplier also gets chilean grapes, so I ordered 18lbs of those as well. I was going to ferment in the pail, but with the lug of crushed grapes, I wont have room now. Will a 10 gallon ferment bucket be my next best choice?
Any advice on this method of grapes and juice would be much appreciated. I expect to start at the end of April, but am gathering info and supplies now. Thanks to all for all the great posts I have found.


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## Chuck E (Mar 23, 2019)

BMarNJ said:


> I am new to wine making and also just ordered a pail of chilean cabernet. My supplier also gets chilean grapes, so I ordered 18lbs of those as well. I was going to ferment in the pail, but with the lug of crushed grapes, I wont have room now. Will a 10 gallon ferment bucket be my next best choice?
> Any advice on this method of grapes and juice would be much appreciated. I expect to start at the end of April, but am gathering info and supplies now. Thanks to all for all the great posts I have found.



I use RubberMaid Brute 10 gallon containers for this. They are NSF approved food grade plastic.


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## baron4406 (Mar 23, 2019)

I have an email from the Mosti-Montinale folks, you are right it took me almost a year to actually order the grape pack. their website was so horrible! Finally about a year later I got an email out of the blue from then saying they fixed all the problems. So I ordered one and got it fast. BTW they said the packs are 99% Cabernet and 1% Merlot. Pretty bizarre combo. I'm done with juice buckets they are so watered down and tasteless I don't even bother with them. So if you go that route keep in mind your going have to manipulate the heck out of it to get any taste


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## heatherd (Mar 23, 2019)

I have also used the Mosti Mondiali grape pack from Musto. They're really nice if you can't find grapes nearby.

Another option would be to get a bucket of frozen grapes and split it between your two juice pails. Two sources:
-Winegrapesdirect - http://winegrapesdirect.com/
-Brehm: https://www.brehmvineyards.com/all-grapes/


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## BMarNJ (Mar 23, 2019)

Chuck E said:


> I use RubberMaid Brute 10 gallon containers for this. They are NSF approved food grade plastic.


Thanks Chuck, thats a good idea.


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## CabEnthusiast (Mar 24, 2019)

baron4406 said:


> I have an email from the Mosti-Montinale folks, you are right it took me almost a year to actually order the grape pack. their website was so horrible! Finally about a year later I got an email out of the blue from then saying they fixed all the problems. So I ordered one and got it fast. BTW they said the packs are 99% Cabernet and 1% Merlot. Pretty bizarre combo. I'm done with juice buckets they are so watered down and tasteless I don't even bother with them. So if you go that route keep in mind your going have to manipulate the heck out of it to get any taste


They are not actually watered down at all, the loss of flavor could be the grapes they used were just poor quality or the lack fo skins. But overall they dont add anything to the juice.


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## baron4406 (Mar 25, 2019)

I did 3 or 4 juice buckets twice a year for about 5 years. This is close to 30 or 40 juice buckets. I finally gave up on them as not one had any flavor or character in it. People even seemed to prefer the wine I made from cheap wine kits. The only juice bucket that seemed to have any kind of taste to it from from Walker's and it was an oddball grape (Noriet) and even that one I added 3 lugs of Cabernet grapes to it.


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## peterseng (Apr 12, 2019)

I ordered a bucket of Pinot Noir juice from my LHBS... and THEN stumbled upon this thread. I emailed the LBHS owner to ask if he had any thoughts on how to make the juice into a better wine or if I could get skins as well, and this is how he described the way the juice is processed "grapes crushed, pressed, balanced, (maybe varietal concentrate added if needed) then cold stabilized then put into buckets". He seems to think that no tweaking would be needed in order to make a decent wine (equal to a $12 to $15 bottle according to him). Just figured I'd jump in here and see if any of you have any knowledge of juice processing or any thoughts regarding anything I should do to improve my final product.

I am already planning an MLF (my first time doing that) and also planning to age the wine on oak before bottling.


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## cmason1957 (Apr 12, 2019)

peterseng said:


> I ordered a bucket of Pinot Noir juice from my LHBS... and THEN stumbled upon this thread. I emailed the LBHS owner to ask if he had any thoughts on how to make the juice into a better wine or if I could get skins as well, and this is how he described the way the juice is processed "grapes crushed, pressed, balanced, (maybe varietal concentrate added if needed) then cold stabilized then put into buckets". He seems to think that no tweaking would be needed in order to make a decent wine (equal to a $12 to $15 bottle according to him). Just figured I'd jump in here and see if any of you have any knowledge of juice processing or any thoughts regarding anything I should do to improve my final product.
> 
> I am already planning an MLF (my first time doing that) and also planning to age the wine on oak before bottling.



For a Pinot Noir, the LHBS owner may well be right. When I think Pinot Noir, I think a lighter, less full-bodied, maybe even fruity wine. He does describe the way the juice is processed correctly, but almost all red wine benefit from the extra chemistry (or maybe it's magic) that takes place while being fermented on the skins. Without skins, I would probably add some oak chips or pre-ferment tannins to the juice bucket to help with color retention. Yeast suggestions (which you didn't ask for, but what the heck), I might go with BM45 or RP15. Here's the words from the morewinemaking manual, which you will want to read, and read, and read:

Pinot Noir:
• AMH: Enhances clove and nutmeg spicy elements, complex with good red fruit flavours and aromas. Colour friendly, some mouthfeel and structure, as well.
• RC212: Ripe berry, bright fruit and spice. More structure than mouthfeel, with good colour retention.• BM45: Big mouthfeel and jam along with some earthy and spicy elements. Good colour stability and helps to minimize vegetative characters.
• RP15 (VQ15): Emphasizes red fruit, along with spice. In addition, colour stability, increased mouthfeel and agreeable tannins are also contributed.
• ICV-GRE: Brings fresh red fruit foreword along with good mouthfeel. Also effective for reducing herbaceous and vegetal notes in under-ripe fruit. Useful as a blending component.
• W15: Normally for German whites, when used in a Pinot W15 will give bright fruit focusing on berry notes as well as contribute mouthfeel.


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## peterseng (Apr 12, 2019)

Thanks cmason. I had been thinking RC212 for the yeast but your suggestions are looking good as well... will have to mull that one over for a bit. By the way, where did you find that information about yeast for Pinot? I can't find it in my copy of the morewinemaking red wine manual... As for the manual, I have worked with that multiple times in my short "career" as an amateur vintner. It's really a great resource!
Adding some pre-fermentation tannin sounds like a good idea, in the absence of skins. Are there any other additives that might be helpful, such as Opti-Red or Bouster Rouge? (from the manual, both seem like they might help give a juice bucket a little something more - but I've never worked with either).
Thanks!


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## cmason1957 (Apr 12, 2019)

I used to use RC-212 for almost all reds, but I had two years in a row where I developed the dreaded rotten egg smell at the very end of alcohol fermentation and now never use it. It just needs so much nutrition. Go to the Morewinemaking.com site and from the front page there is a link to manuals. Scroll down a bit and there is one called yeast pairing or something like that. Lots of great information in those manuals. I refer to them often. 

I have never used Opti-Red or Bouster Rouge in a juice bucket. I almost think they need skins to extract something from, but I may well be mistaken about that.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 13, 2019)

peterseng said:


> Adding some pre-fermentation tannin sounds like a good idea, in the absence of skins. Are there any other additives that might be helpful, such as Opti-Red or Bouster Rouge? (from the manual, both seem like they might help give a juice bucket a little something more - but I've never worked with either).
> Thanks!



@cmason1957 speaks truth. He’s like the juice pail master around here! 
When fermenting juice buckets my mindset has been “just toss it in”. Grapes if possible. Fresh or ‘just fermented’ skins. 
Or the all grape pack from Mosti.
http://www.juicegrape.com/Mosti-Mondiale-All-Grape-Pack/
I love $5 additive pack from morewine (sans the enzyme if no grapes) https://morewinemaking.com/products/additive-pack-brehm-frozen-fruit-reds.html
And/or oak powder or chips too. 
And I’m a RC212 guy for juice pails. 
Never did a “control” batch at the same time so hard to fully know the benefits, but I think it helps. Plus it’s fun


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## cmason1957 (Apr 13, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @cmason1957 speaks truth. He’s like the juice pail master around here!
> When fermenting juice buckets my mindset has been “just toss it in”. Grapes if possible. Fresh or ‘just fermented’ skins.
> Or the all grape pack from Mosti.
> http://www.juicegrape.com/Mosti-Mondiale-All-Grape-Pack/
> ...



If you were to see the price for California Grapes we have to pay here in Missouri, you would understand why I do juice pails. Do enough of them and you learn a trick or three.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 13, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> If you were to see the price for California Grapes we have to pay here in Missouri, you would understand why I do juice pails. Do enough of them and you learn a trick or three.



I still find that so odd that grapes are that much more expensive in your area. Yet 1/2 the cost on east coast in spite of shipping x2 the distance. 

Chalking that up to Missouri mafioso having poor business skills


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## monty (Apr 15, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @cmason1957 speaks truth. He’s like the juice pail master around here!
> When fermenting juice buckets my mindset has been “just toss it in”. Grapes if possible. Fresh or ‘just fermented’ skins.
> Or the all grape pack from Mosti.
> http://www.juicegrape.com/Mosti-Mondiale-All-Grape-Pack/
> ...


I'm thinking about getting a lug of grapes and adding to my Chilean juice buckets this year. How much of a difference does the grape varietal I choose make? I'm doing a Carmenere juice, but considering getting maybe Merlot grapes.

I would crush them by hand and put them into a paint strainer bag, and squeeze it out when I remove them. Can I then freeze the grapes and reuse them one more time?


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## sour_grapes (Apr 15, 2019)

Considering that the Carmenere grapes in Chile were, for many years, thought to be Merlot, I would think your suggestion is a fine one.


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## peterseng (Apr 16, 2019)

Ajmassa5983 said:


> @cmason1957 speaks truth. He’s like the juice pail master around here!
> When fermenting juice buckets my mindset has been “just toss it in”. Grapes if possible. Fresh or ‘just fermented’ skins.
> Or the all grape pack from Mosti.
> http://www.juicegrape.com/Mosti-Mondiale-All-Grape-Pack/
> ...


AJ, the additive pack sounds like exactly what I'm looking for... and I can save the enzymes for my fresh grapes in fall (just a few vines so a pack meant for a 6 gallon batch might just be about the right size). 
Thanks!


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## monty (Apr 16, 2019)

sour_grapes said:


> Considering that the Carmenere grapes in Chile were, for many years, thought to be Merlot, I would think your suggestion is a fine one.


And do you think freezing and reusing in the fall is an ok plan?

How much would changing the grape varietal affect the flavor of the wine? Like let's say I added Cabernet Sauvignon grapes instead of the Merlot.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 16, 2019)

This is only my opinion, so consider the source. I think you _can_ freeze and reuse, but you will see only a little benefit. But not zero benefit, so it may be worth doing.

I have made second-run wine, which is where you take the used skins and add acidulated water and sugar, and ferment a second time on these skins. (It is a common practice.) I was warned by someone here (@Stressbaby , I believe), that it may not be worth it, that the second-run wine would be subpar. He was right. However, I did get some decent color, so the skins obviously added something.

I think Cab Sauv would also be a fine choice. I have no way to quantify "how much" it will affect the taste.


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## Jal5 (Apr 16, 2019)

I added one American oak spiral to my merlot recently bulk aging. Plan to let it remain checking taste every 2 wks
Joe


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## Chuck E (Apr 16, 2019)

Jal5 said:


> I added one American oak spiral to my merlot recently bulk aging. Plan to let it remain checking taste every 2 wks
> Joe



I find the spirals don't add much after 6 weeks. If you want more oak, and you bought a two pack; you may want to add the second one after 5-6 weeks.


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## porkchopmessiah (Apr 16, 2019)

I added tannin complex to the 4 pails from the fall...it remains s to be seen what the overall effect will be


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## Jal5 (Apr 17, 2019)

Chuck E said:


> I find the spirals don't add much after 6 weeks. If you want more oak, and you bought a two pack; you may want to add the second one after 5-6 weeks.


It’s my first experiment with oak so I decided to tread lightly on this
One


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## porkchopmessiah (May 1, 2019)

Being as grapes werent available for me, I'll be doing buckets again, any ideas for Chilean blends/ratios? I just bottled a malbec from last spring so I'll have that around for a while...just felt like doing something different/Interesting


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## Venatorscribe (May 2, 2019)

I also have a Chilean Malbec and a Chilean Merlot that I was thinking about blending. Not all of it - possibly 20 litres and retaining the rest for straight drinking as am partial to Malbec. I was thinking about a 50:50 mix.


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## mainshipfred (May 2, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> Being as grapes werent available for me, I'll be doing buckets again, any ideas for Chilean blends/ratios? I just bottled a malbec from last spring so I'll have that around for a while...just felt like doing something different/Interesting



Are you planning on blending pre or post fermentation? I was never comfortable pre since you really don't know what the finished wine will be like. I realize it's done both ways but my preference is waiting until the wines have had a chance to age a bit and then do blending trials. Wines from this years juice will not necessarily be the same as the next.


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## Venatorscribe (May 2, 2019)

Post fermentation. I fermented the Malbec in August '18 and the Merlot in Oct'18. I have oak spirals in them at the moment and will blend in September


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## mainshipfred (May 2, 2019)

Venatorscribe said:


> Post fermentation. I fermented the Malbec in August '18 and the Merlot in Oct'18. I have oak spirals in them at the moment and will blend in September



August or September are usually my blending time frames as well. Mostly because I need to make room for the '19s. Like you though I like to keep some single varietals


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## porkchopmessiah (May 2, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Are you planning on blending pre or post fermentation? I was never comfortable pre since you really don't know what the finished wine will be like. I realize it's done both ways but my preference is waiting until the wines have had a chance to age a bit and then do blending trials. Wines from this years juice will not necessarily be the same as the next.


If I blend it would be post ferment...with my fall pails I blended Syrah with Sangiovese 66/33 in a 3gall and then the other way 33/66 in a 5 gal with 1 gall of each to spare with 1 gallon of blended to top off...
Being that I'm trying to learn combined with my palate not being too sophisticated, I'm more concearned with my learning curve than making a few gall of wine that wasnt great, plus odds are I'll drink it anyway


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## Venatorscribe (May 3, 2019)

Over the last twelve to eighteen months I have tasted the benefits of blending. It not only extends my range of choices ( come happy hour ) but has 'stretched' my taste buds and abilities to appreciate good red wines. But my blending hasn't stopped there. I also have a passion to fashion, really nice tasting full bodied fruit and botanical wines. In my march to achieve that vision I have discovered that the key to this is blending. We truly have a great hobby.


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## mainshipfred (May 3, 2019)

Venatorscribe said:


> Over the last twelve to eighteen months I have tasted the benefits of blending. It not only extends my range of choices ( come happy hour ) but has 'stretched' my taste buds and abilities to appreciate good red wines. But my blending hasn't stopped there. I also have a passion to fashion, really nice tasting full bodied fruit and botanical wines. In my march to achieve that vision I have discovered that the key to this is blending. We truly have a great hobby.



I'm with you on the benefits of blending. The only issue for me is my untrained palate. Some people can taste a varietal and know how it will compliment others, I just can't do that. When I blend it sometimes takes me days before finding something I think will be the best. I can only taste so much wine before my taste buds get confused so I have to continue another day. With all that said I also make adjustments (if needed) on the individual varietals prior to blending. It's a lengthy process for me and I'm never sure I have the best blend so bottling is more often than not delayed due to my indecision.


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## Jal5 (May 12, 2019)

Jal5 said:


> I added one American oak spiral to my merlot recently bulk aging. Plan to let it remain checking taste every 2 wks
> Joe


Four weeks into this spiral addition and it’s really good. My wife said bottle it as it is so we are good to go. I’m surprised how much flavor it added.


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