# Banana wine - peels or no peels?



## BernardSmith (Jun 17, 2013)

I am thinking about making a small batch of banana wine. I see that some recipes call for banana peels and some don't. I imagine that people include the peels of bananas in banana wine because of the tannins in them but I wonder how safe it is to include peels from commercially grown bananas given the use of pesticides and other chemicals that may have been sprayed on the skins to inhibit ripening during shipping. Has anyone on this forum any thoughts about this and whether it is better to simply add tannins and not include the peels? Thanks


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 17, 2013)

I've thrown bananas into cheap kits to add body, but never thought about the 'stuff' that might be on the skins. I think the the skins would be good to have, but either buy organic, or rinse very well before use.


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## Duster (Jun 17, 2013)

I often use bananas and I just slice them up with skins on. I do wash all fruit that I use for wine.


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## jswordy (Jun 18, 2013)

Peels.

Oh BTW, I always like to post this link to the MSDS on what we are making when the ol' "how safe is it" question comes up...

http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/91467.htm

Hmmm.... "mutagenic effects" ....


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jun 18, 2013)

Search for Deezils banana port posts, he did an indepth scientific study on bananas in winemaking. I like the skins, full of enzymes that help the wine to clear faster also. WVMJ



BernardSmith said:


> I am thinking about making a small batch of banana wine. I see that some recipes call for banana peels and some don't. I imagine that people include the peels of bananas in banana wine because of the tannins in them but I wonder how safe it is to include peels from commercially grown bananas given the use of pesticides and other chemicals that may have been sprayed on the skins to inhibit ripening during shipping. Has anyone on this forum any thoughts about this and whether it is better to simply add tannins and not include the peels? Thanks


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## BernardSmith (Jun 19, 2013)

As always , thanks to every one. WVMJ , I will check out Deezil's posts on banana wines. And Jim, Way back when, when I was at Aberdeeen U (in Scotland ) one of my friends who was studying undergraduate microbiology told me that they would use black pepper as a mutagen in specific lab experiments. My concern is only whether bananas are sprayed with toxins that we would normally discard before eating the fruit but if I was to steep the skins in the must and ferment on top of the skins I would be cultivating and harvesting those toxins. That _anything_ can be toxic is one thing, that some things are designed and deliberately used because of their toxicity is, I think, quite different. The first class of things I can treat with respect. The second class of things I would prefer to avoid altogether.


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## jswordy (Jun 19, 2013)

Besides the natural pesticides plants produce that you are concentrating, see this list for some ideas:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~snelson/HBIA/2006 BANANA PESTICIDE UPDATE.htm

Doubtful you can get rid of much by discarding the peels, since systemic action is needed for a lot of them. Shrug. Wine is not a health food. Check out what they spray on grapes sometime! And we do use alcohol expressly because of its toxicity.


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## BernardSmith (Jun 19, 2013)

jswordy said:


> Besides the natural pesticides plants produce that you are concentrating, see this list for some ideas:
> 
> http://www2.hawaii.edu/~snelson/HBIA/2006 BANANA PESTICIDE UPDATE.htm
> 
> Doubtful you can get rid of much by discarding the peels, since systemic action is needed for a lot of them. Shrug. Wine is not a health food. Check out what they spray on grapes sometime! And we do use alcohol expressly because of its toxicity.



Arghhhhh... That list is quite terrifying.


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## jswordy (Jun 19, 2013)

BernardSmith said:


> Arghhhhh... That list is quite terrifying.



Naaah... check this out if ya wanna get skeered...

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...ist-pesticide-laden-produce-article-1.1328555

There goes most of my wine production! 

Apples...
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/DS.jsp?sk=4001

Wine grapes...
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/DS.jsp?sk=29143

Peaches...
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/DS.jsp?sk=5004

Strawberries...
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/DS.jsp?sk=1016

 And that's just in California! No way outta it, man!


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## BernardSmith (Jun 19, 2013)

Jim , I am duly terrified. I am going to volunteer for that trip to Mars. It has to be less risky than eating anything grown commercially.


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## Deezil (Jun 19, 2013)

It depends on the state of the banana in question..

Green-peeled bananas are basically all-starch, the actual fruit itself. Most of the enzymes that break down this starch into sugars are still located within the peel.

Yellow-peeled bananas are still mostly starch, although the enzymes are starting to make their way into the fruit and change those starches into sugars. 

Yellow-peeled bananas with black mottling are even less starchy, as the enzymes are moving in a bit of an exodus, towards the fruit at this point. The darkening of the peel comes from the breakdown of the cell walls and oxidation of those cells; basically the peel is deteriorating as the enzymes and nutrients head toward the fruit inside. 

Once the peel is blackened, it's basically given up everything it has to offer and without processing, the fruit will rot in short order. The peel at this point is completely oxidized, has lost a majority of its mass, and is barely enough barrier from the atmosphere to protect the fruit inside. 

All this said, personally, I dont think I'd ever use anything less than a mottled banana in my wines, simply because there's too much starch vs sugar; if the peels are blackening, I dont feel comfortable with using them (the peels) in my wines... Basically, I'll always ripen the fruit until the peels are atleast partially black, and I'll probably never include the peels.

How this all plays into what they spray on the bananas, and if those sprays work into the fruit alongside the enzymes.. I have no idea... All I know is this small batch of Banana Bochet smells amazing - the bananas have overwhelmed the caramelized honey so far..


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## Tess (Jun 19, 2013)

I always thought banana skins bitter not sure Id want that a part of my wine!!


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## jswordy (Jun 20, 2013)

Tess said:


> I always thought banana skins bitter not sure Id want that a part of my wine!!



Tess, it's what Deezil said - you gotta use them dead ripe. The skins add body that you won't get with just the fruit IMO. Keep an eye out for the discounted bananas in the store cuz they are "too ripe." Those are just about ripe enough for wine!

Manley, black peels contain the most sugar. That is what is deemed a ripe banana in the countries where they are grown. They say we eat them too early.


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## BernardSmith (Jun 20, 2013)

Tess said:


> I always thought banana skins bitter not sure Id want that a part of my wine!!



I thought that bitterness was tannin...


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## Bearpaw (Jun 20, 2013)

Hey,

Banana peels don't give an bitter taste but an neutral banana taste.
The most important thing to do when you use the peels is to boil them because bananas get yellow with the help of bacteria.
Those bacteria are an disaster for your wine.

Bearpaw


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## Deezil (Jun 20, 2013)

jswordy said:


> Manley, black peels contain the most sugar. That is what is deemed a ripe banana in the countries where they are grown. They say we eat them too early.



Right, but it's the fruit that has all the sugar, not the peels.. Black peeled bananas have the most sugar, in the fruit itself.. The peel has given up all it has to give by that point


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## Sammyk (Jun 20, 2013)

I freeze over ripe bananas and the skins in zip lock bags to add to most types of must. I don't boil them but just put them in a strainer bag. 

What I am reading here is to boil them first and just add the "soup" to the must?
Never thought to wash the peels since they are not eaten. Should I just thrown the peel away now when I thaw them to use?


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## jswordy (Jun 20, 2013)

Bearpaw said:


> Hey,
> 
> Banana peels don't give an bitter taste but an neutral banana taste.
> The most important thing to do when you use the peels is to boil them because bananas get yellow with the help of bacteria.
> ...



Never boiled a banana in my life. I chop 'em in 1-inch segments, load 'em in a bag and toss 'em in the must.


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## Bearpaw (Jun 20, 2013)

Good for you jswordy,
But not everybody wants to play on unsafe mode. 
It is boiling the bananas or have an change to trow your wine away, 
The fruit itself doesn't have to boil, only the peel. 

Bearpaw


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## Deezil (Jun 20, 2013)

Bearpaw said:


> The most important thing to do when you use the peels is to boil them because bananas get yellow with the help of bacteria.



It's actually an enzyme that the banana produces itself, as is a part of the ripening process.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jun 20, 2013)

So bananna wines usually clear very fast when you include some peel. I wonder if letting the peel go black and use all its enzymes up would that affect clearing? WVMJ


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## Deezil (Jun 20, 2013)

WVMountaineerJack said:


> So bananna wines usually clear very fast when you include some peel. I wonder if letting the peel go black and use all its enzymes up would that affect clearing? WVMJ



Of course, the bananas would use the enzymes to convert the starches in the banana to sugars.. The starches and pectins cause the hazing.. If the starches are gone from the banana, and pectic enzyme solves the pectin issue.. 

Bentonite should clear up anything else, if its even needed. 

Another side effect of letting the peels blacken, is the increased sugar levels in the banana because the enzymes broke the starches down into simpler sugars

Less hazing, more sugars... Why do we use yellow bananas again?


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## Tess (Jun 22, 2013)

black Banana's? this is why I love this forum. Learn something new everyday!! lol


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## Stressbaby (Jun 22, 2013)

Forgive me for being a little skeptical...but I grow bananas, several varieties...what evidence do we have than anything actually "moves" out of the peels?

Dehydration of the peel seems to be a far more logical explanation for thinning or loss of weight. You would have to demonstrate an increase in the weight of the peeked fruit to suggest that anything actually moves from peel to fruit.

And black spots on peels are anthracnose (mold), not the same as oxidation, to be clear.


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## seth8530 (Jun 22, 2013)

Stressbaby said:


> Forgive me for being a little skeptical...but I grow bananas, several varieties...what evidence do we have than anything actually "moves" out of the peels?
> 
> Dehydration of the peel seems to be a far more logical explanation for thinning or loss of weight. You would have to demonstrate an increase in the weight of the peeked fruit to suggest that anything actually moves from peel to fruit.
> 
> And black spots on peels are anthracnose (mold), not the same as oxidation, to be clear.



At the very least the dehydration of the nannas will result in less water content and thus a higher sugar to mass ratio meaning sweater nannas!


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## Deezil (Jun 22, 2013)

There's a difference between anthracnose and the ripening of the banana.. Just to be clear. They both visually affect the banana in the same sort of manner but there is a definite difference in whats really going on.

Here's a good publication that shows what anthracnose IS

There are, however, enzymes that react with the chlorophyll within the banana, essentially chewing it up - which is why the 'green' in a banana goes away. It's this same process, that swaps green-for-yellow, that inevitably sends the banana down the path to turning black. 

WylieE did a pretty good job here hittin the nail on the head

"Enzymes present in fruits, mainly polyphenol oxidase cause the browning in damaged fruit. Normally polyphenol oxidase works in plants as a defense against insects. When activated this enzyme turns phenols in the plant into quinones, these quinones then turn into melanins which have beneficial properties to the plant- antibacterial, anti-fungal, and UV protection (another good reason to eat your fruits and veggies). Melanins are dark in color and so make the areas where they are present appear brown. 

In healthy plant tissue the phenolic compounds are stored in the vacuole, well separated from the polyphenol oxidase enzyme so no activity happens. However, when a cell is smashed, cut, or otherwise tortured, the separating membranes are ruptured and polyphenol oxidase can access the phenolic compounds and start the process of turning them into quinones and then into melanins."

Now, with this in mind, remember that bananas produce their own form of a pectic enzyme, which is why as a banana ripens, it softens as well. This is a form of self-mutilation, basically 'smashing, cutting or otherwise torturing' its own cells to begin the ripening process.

It's this same rupturing of the cell walls that leads to the oxidation that I hinted at before.

I dont know why you'd have to see a weight change to acknowledge movement. There isnt any weight difference. These guys did a study on it, among other things. Chemical compounds dont weight that much though..

There's more information here than you can read in a day

If you haven't, give this thread of mine a read.

Page 7 shows a blackened banana without any signs of anthracnose. The pages before, show the ripening process as well as some of the quotes I mentioned. I thought I had saved/linked to the papers I pulled the quotes for, I try to make it a habit, but I guess I didnt those couple times

You'll see that dehydration is a non-factor, as the banana actually becomes more liquid as it ripens.. If the banana gives off anything, its gas - ethylene. Definitely doesnt shed enough moisture to make up for the loss of thickness in the peel within my experiment though.

If you're still skeptical after the experiment I did, after the links I've provided and after finding some white papers on your own time.. All I can tell you is to go buy 40lbs of bananas and let them sit around for 3 weeks like I just got done doing.. Only had about 6 bananas with anthracnose on them, others had some white surface mold and crown rot but cant really expect anything less. 

The rest of them blackened up amazingly well and I've made the best banana bread I've ever had from them.

Hope I didnt hurt your head too much


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## Stressbaby (Jun 23, 2013)

Thanks Manley. I have read your thread but I'll take a look at these other links.


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## WVMountaineerJack (Jun 23, 2013)

Folks add banannas to unripe fruit to help them ripen with the ethylene. I am hoping to bottle our banana mead over the next couple of weeks, its so clear its like a prism! WVMJ


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## Stressbaby (Jun 23, 2013)

Yes, I made a batch of Dwarf Nam Wah wine several weeks ago and I must say it cleared faster than any other wine I've ever made. I included 1/2 pound of Nam Wah skins.


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## wineon4 (Jun 24, 2013)

I make gallons of Banana and I don't use the peels and I don't cook the fruit. I put it in the blender with a small amount of white grape juice to help blend it.


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## wood1954 (Jul 3, 2013)

so the big question is, does banana wine taste good or is it just cheap to make. the smaller question is, do you backsweeten it?


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## BernardSmith (Jul 3, 2013)

I have no idea what banana wine tastes like. I see that there is a tradition of making wine from bananas in East Africa and I am curious to know what that wine might taste like. I see that some of the more traditional methods of making such wines involve a great deal of chance in areas (such as mine) where such wines may be rather rare, so I am planning on making use of more modern techniques where I have more control and where there will be less risk of bacterial spoilage.


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## wineon4 (Jul 5, 2013)

I have made Banana wine often. Last year I made a 30 gallon batch and this year a 10 gallon batch. I enjoy it, looks like a Chardonnay and taste like it, also along with a wisp of nice mild Banana flavor. My last years vintage received a Silver at Pittsburgh's Wine Completion, 3rd bottle from the right in my avatar. I deviate from most Banana recipes, as they call for using the peels and cooking the Bananas, I peel them then liquefy them in a blender along with some white grape juice. I think it is a very nice wine.


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## Deezil (Jul 5, 2013)

If you let the banana peels turn black before you use them, I promise you, it will both smell and taste of bananas. I cant vouch for yellow-peeled bananas. But black peeled bananas ? Oh my.. It's not just a "whiff", thats for sure 

But because this is a mead AND a port... It'll be some years (5-8) before I really know how good it is

Sounds like wineon4 might have been speaking of yellow-peeled bananas, because there's no way what's on my winemaking table is anything like a Chard


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## wineon4 (Jul 12, 2013)

Made 6 gallon last evening. A local food service gave me 80lb of over ripe Bananas. I peeled them, then pureed them in a blender. the 80lb made 6 gallon of Banana wallpaper paste, added only enough water to melt the sugar. Hope to rack out about 4 gallon when all is said and done. I have had judges tell me that the wine made with peels has an oily feel in the mouth, I can't say because I have never used the peels. I have 20lb frozen maybe I will make a gallon with them using the peels and compare to my collection of Banana. Yeah I have a nice collection of Banana in bottles as it is one of my favorite fruit wines


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## wood1954 (Jul 17, 2013)

well, after reading all these posts i started 15 lbs of bananas about 12 days ago. So far i'd say it's going to turn out pretty good. It's under airlock now, i added too much sugar so had to add EC-1118 yeast to finish it off. I'm going to try another batch; this time without the peels and add one pound of sugar per 3 pounds of bananas. At 39 cents a pound this will be a good one to experiment with. Thanks everyone for your inputs.


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## vernsgal (Jul 18, 2013)

in my banana wine,no peel, I added a vanilla bean and apple concentrate in the secondary. It's been aging 6 mos. now am excited to give it a taste in another 3 mos.


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## wineon4 (Jul 18, 2013)

verngal, vanilla bean sounds good I may pull out 1 gallon of my current batch and try it. I made 6 gallon of Maple wine( I tap trees and make my own Maple syrup) so this year I boiled 40 gallon of sap down to 6 gallon and made wine, I added 100% pure vanilla extract to it then some mulling spice and it is a great wine. I call it my breakfast wine to drink with pancakes in the morning. My Banana is going into the secondary this evening. I think it is getting to warm mid 90's in my area for the past week and now the banana cap has gone off and is now mixed through out the wine may need to strain it before transfering to the carboy. With this heat it went dry in 6 days. I have 100 lb of rhubarb and 70 lb black raspberries frozen ( need freezer space ) but may wait until it cools down around here.


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## saramc (Jul 18, 2013)

I have to share, on 10/1/12 I had started a banana port-style wine (banana port thread) with total OG of 1.122, D-47 yeast, and used the peels....and I sampled it this past weekend when I was giving it its quarterly k-meta dose & it is absolutely amazing. I had originally planned to fortify with banana-infused brandy but am reconsidering because it is crazy good as it is now, maybe I will do some port-style and some original.


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