# Has anyone made Wine Lovers kits?



## Bohemiana (Oct 3, 2020)

Newbie to this forum!
I did a Google search for Fontana wine kits because at the moment there are not many Fontana selections on Amazon, and in the shopping section of Google, Wine Lovers came up with a bunch of kits around $50. I searched this forum but didn't find any info about this company. The reviews on the company's website are all positive, which is always a red flag IMO. Has anyone tried making Wine Lovers kits? Also, besides Amazon I couldn't find any other source for Fontana kits. Any other options for Fontana kit purchases? Thank you!

Here's the link...








Award-Winning Red & White Wine Making Kits


Award-winning wine kits by Wine Lovers. Shop our collection of wine kits in the most popular red, white and fruit wines.



wineloversonline.com





FYI--In addition to newbie on this forum, I'm a relatively newbie to kit wine making. So far I've only made a couple of Winexpert World Vineyard kits and one Winexpert Limited Edition kit. The LE kit was really good but the WV kits were pretty average.


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## my wine (Oct 4, 2020)

I went to the link and saw the $50 kits. But they were all 7% PABV. Too light for me. The $55 kits gives you 11.5% which I would tweak anyway to get a bit more alcohol. $55 with free shipping to the US is a decent deal. That's $10 to $15 less than Wild Grapes brand on Amazon with free shipping also. And Wine Lovers has a good selection of reds. I haven't tried this brand but I'm looking for a good base wine kit to tweak and this is worth a try. Thanks for posting it.


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## my wine (Oct 5, 2020)

Today I ordered 2 kits from Wine Lovers. A $55 merlot and a $90 Pinot Noir. The Pinot comes with 16 liters of juice. That's more than 2/3 of the wine quantity produced by the kit. A lot of juice! Plus free shipping and no sales tax from Canada. Let's see how it turns out.


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## Bohemiana (Oct 5, 2020)

I would like to know how you tweak the $55 merlot to give it more body/taste. I've never made any kit except by the directions that come with the kit. I've been reading about raisins, zest, peppercorns, bananas but still don't have the knowledge to risk it yet. I'm all about getting the most bang for the buck which is why the Wine Lover's $55 price point appealed to me. Please update this thread with your tweaks!


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## my wine (Oct 6, 2020)

I recently started working kits outside of the instructions alone. Most of what I learned came from a thread in the General Wine Making Forum called When Good Wines Gone Bad. You may have looked through there. Lots of great information there. I racked a Winexpert Trinity Red kit to secondary yesterday. During primary I put the bentonite in then I adjusted the amount of water I added using the hydrometer as my guide. I picked a starting SG of 1.010 then added water to get that reading. I would up with 5.5 gallons of must instead of the 6 gallons called out in the kit instructions. Then I took a pound of blackberries and a cup of raisins, simmered them a couple of minutes and mashed up the berries then tossed that into the bucket. I added the oak chips included with the kit and pitched the yeast. Too early to tell how well it turned out but I calculated ABV at 13.25%. Plenty of flavor but I'll taste again in a couple of weeks when it had time to settle a bit. It does taste stronger and fruitier than the first Trinity Red kit I made using the instructions alone. 

If you wait to get knowledge yourself you may wait a long time. On this forum many people share the knowledge they took a long time to get so I don't have to take so long. You should try it too. I haven't decided yet what I'll do with the $55 merlot kit. I'm thinking dried montmorency cherries. I'll have to see what others have gotten with cherries in the primary.


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## my wine (Oct 6, 2020)

BTW, welcome to the forum!!


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## bstnh1 (Oct 6, 2020)

my wine said:


> I recently started working kits outside of the instructions alone. Most of what I learned came from a thread in the General Wine Making Forum called When Good Wines Gone Bad. You may have looked through there. Lots of great information there. I racked a Winexpert Trinity Red kit to secondary yesterday. During primary I put the bentonite in then I adjusted the amount of water I added using the hydrometer as my guide. I picked a starting SG of 1.010 then added water to get that reading. I would up with 5.5 gallons of must instead of the 6 gallons called out in the kit instructions. Then I took a pound of blackberries and a cup of raisins, simmered them a couple of minutes and mashed up the berries then tossed that into the bucket. I added the oak chips included with the kit and pitched the yeast. Too early to tell how well it turned out but I calculated ABV at 13.25%. Plenty of flavor but I'll taste again in a couple of weeks when it had time to settle a bit. It does taste stronger and fruitier than the first Trinity Red kit I made using the instructions alone.
> 
> If you wait to get knowledge yourself you may wait a long time. On this forum many people share the knowledge they took a long time to get so I don't have to take so long. You should try it too. I haven't decided yet what I'll do with the $55 merlot kit. I'm thinking dried montmorency cherries. I'll have to see what others have gotten with cherries in the primary.


Starting SG of "1.010"???? That won't get you anywhere near 13% ABV. Do you mean 1.10????


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## my wine (Oct 6, 2020)

Yep, 1.100, nice catch. 13.25% calculated ABV. Thanks!


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## joeswine (Oct 10, 2020)

Always good reading" tweaking cheap wine kits" on this forum. #1 of its kind on facebook and Google.


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## joeswine (Oct 10, 2020)

Have you read "tweaking cheap wine kits" on this same forum? It should answer most of your questions.


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## Steve Wargo (Oct 11, 2020)

Bohemiana said:


> Newbie to this forum!
> I did a Google search for Fontana wine kits because at the moment there are not many Fontana selections on Amazon, and in the shopping section of Google, Wine Lovers came up with a bunch of kits around $50. I searched this forum but didn't find any info about this company. The reviews on the company's website are all positive, which is always a red flag IMO. Has anyone tried making Wine Lovers kits? Also, besides Amazon I couldn't find any other source for Fontana kits. Any other options for Fontana kit purchases? Thank you!
> 
> Here's the link...
> ...


I've used Wine Lovers as a source for juice Kits. I've also sourced from Label Peelers(Ohio) for the Wine Expert Kits. I think the "brand label kits" all get their condensed juice from the same processing plant somewhere in Canada. The only difference I've found is that the WIne Expert kits came with wood chips (when required) and the Wine Lovers kits did not come with wood chips, in my experience. I use the 8L (used to be 10L) kits and above and 16L.(when they go on sale). If you like to tinker and tweak the less expensive kits, that's a good thing too (develop vintner skills and tools). I think they(brands) are all about the same quality (for each liter category) except the price. IMO One other thought: You might be able to source a different grape juice style from one brand as opposed to the other. 
Good luck and happy winemaking


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## my wine (Oct 11, 2020)

Steve Wargo said:


> I use the 8L (used to be 10L) kits and above and 16L.(when they go on sale).



Wine Lovers may have changed the juice volume in their kits, same as Wine Expert did. I bought a full-body Wine Lovers Pinot Noir kit (16 liter) and a medium-body merlot kit (5.2 liter printed on the box although the plastic bag with the juice says 6L bag). There is a light-body kit with 4.8 liter juice bag. They may have other kits with 8 liters; I don't know. As steve Wargo said, they don't come with much other than the chems to make the basic wine. That's fine with me as I like to tinker.

I haven't looked at Label Peelers yet. I'll go look there. Thanks!


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## Ole Guy 35 (Oct 12, 2020)

New to this forum: I have bought from Label Peelers good pricing and great customer service


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## Kantuckid (Mar 5, 2021)

Thread revival: I was looking at Wine Lovers Amazon reviews yesterday and read one that the kit user was buying two kits then using one whole bag and 1/2 bag to make a typical size batch of wine and gain better flavor. My 1st thought was the cost was then almost where Wine Expert kits begin in price point. I was also considering the Wine lovers Pinot Noir kit and add a 1/2 bag of Wine Expert red juice concentrate to up the game a bit? Your thoughts?


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## VinesnBines (Mar 5, 2021)

I've bought the cheap Fontana (now ABC Craft) cab sav kit and reduced the water addition to make a 5 gallon batches rather than 6 gallons. I add about a quart of simple syrup (SG 1.120), a cup of Zante currants and a cup of oak chips. I've tried a few other varieties from Fontana but none are quite as good or I haven't found the good combination for tweaking.


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## Kantuckid (Mar 5, 2021)

Wood chips as I see mentioned above are indeed cheap- I own a sawmill and oak chips are all over the place-ha!
I do see the 14 varieties of the Fontana labeled kits on Amazon right now. They list for $60, $5 more than the Wine Lovers price @ $55 each.
If we take the info. to heart, that all the juice bags come from the "plant in Canada" then what are we paying extra for with the Wine Expert kits? Kind of kills the notion of premium kits? That said, I have had great results from Wild Grapes lower price point kits with a Canadian source for the kit itself, the juice was from AU on my Chardonnay, but could have been based in a warehouse wherever.


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## VinesnBines (Mar 5, 2021)

The oak needs to be toasted white oak though they are cheap. The Fontana have a $5 coupon off one, at least for Amazon Prime. I didn't care a lot for the Fontana Chardonnay so maybe I should try the Wild Grapes.


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## Old Corker (Mar 5, 2021)

I assume you're kidding about the wood chips. The wood used in these kits is specific species of oak that is aged and toasted at different grades. I may be naïve but assume there is a collection method other than sweeping the floor.
The Wine Expert and RJS kits are (allegedly) a mixture of the juice concentrate and varietal juice from the listed source. Higher price points have more of the juice blended into the concentrate. So you're not just paying for added water. You're paying for added juice along with the other additives. I have not done Fontana or Wild Grapes kits but have done a fair amount of tweaking to the cheaper WE and RJS kits.


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## Kantuckid (Mar 5, 2021)

An oven will char wood. In fact even a microwave will char wood. I dry my wood moisture content samples in the microwave and have gone overboard before and charred my sample piece...
Could also easily be done with a propane torch. I also use oak scraps from green oak mill cuts for BBQ grill smoke.
I like my AU Chardonnay pretty well. I'd put up with a decent $10-15 store wine. Liquor Barn a big alcohol retailer nearest city to me sells the chips cheap.
My real point to begin with is any kit lacking wood chips is not a thing that matters too much.
I've read these oak chip thoughts before. The real barrels are made near me and the wood is not aged. Of course a whiskey barrel is charred inside to the point of charcoal on the surface. None of the chips I've seen as additives to kit are charred much. I don't sweep the floor except in my wood shop of course. White Oak is the only species used for a barrel, period. Other oaks in the white oak family lack the closed cell structure and don't qualify for barrels. 
No doubt there are wine snobs? who feel the chips must come from some South of France type of locale. Charring wood probably kills the cooties anyway? I used to make sassafras chips on my jointer for my wife's Mamaw and I caught them on a piece of clean newsprint before they hit the floor.


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## Old Corker (Mar 5, 2021)

Kantuckid said:


> My real point to begin with is any kit lacking wood chips is not a thing that matters too much.



Your wood working skills far surpass mine. I make cedar chips with my wood chipper but only use it for mulch.
I buy oak for my wine or use what came with the kit.


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## my wine (Mar 5, 2021)

Kantuckid said:


> Thread revival: I was looking at Wine Lovers Amazon reviews yesterday and read one that the kit user was buying two kits then using one whole bag and 1/2 bag to make a typical size batch of wine and gain better flavor. My 1st thought was the cost was then almost where Wine Expert kits begin in price point. I was also considering the Wine lovers Pinot Noir kit and add a 1/2 bag of Wine Expert red juice concentrate to up the game a bit? Your thoughts?


I've made a number of Wine Lovers kits since this thread was originally posted, including the Pinot Noir. I bought a variety of medium bodied and the heavey bodied kits. All are still aging but tasted fine when done. I've tweeked them with raisins, currants, blackberries, cherries, table grapes, 2nd time around fpacs, french oak, white oak, and more. So far I'm happy with the result. I do make them to SG 1.100 so slightly less than the 6 gallons.


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## joeswine (Mar 5, 2021)

Right now moving on the 405k,views thanks guys.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 6, 2021)

Kantuckid said:


> Thread revival: I was looking at Wine Lovers Amazon reviews yesterday and read one that the kit user was buying two kits then using one whole bag and 1/2 bag to make a typical size batch of wine and gain better flavor. My 1st thought was the cost was then almost where Wine Expert kits begin in price point. I was also considering the Wine lovers Pinot Noir kit and add a 1/2 bag of Wine Expert red juice concentrate to up the game a bit? Your thoughts?


You're right about the cost of using 2 of these kits not being worth it. Just get one higher grade kit, IMO. Like @joeswine said, check out the "Tweaking Cheap Kits" thread for economical ways to improve kits like the Wine Lovers. 
By the way, I just started a Fontana Medium and soon a Wine Lovers Merlot Medium. I'm tweaking both based on ideas from the "Tweaking" thread. Also, here's a picture of both of these kits:


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## my wine (Mar 6, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> By the way, I just started a Fontana Medium and soon a Wine Lovers Merlot Medium. I'm tweaking both based on ideas from the "Tweaking" thread. Also, here's a picture of both of these kits:


LOL! They look identical. I'm curious, is the Fontana label a stick-on? BTW, I currently have a medium-bodied and a heavy-bodied Wine Lovers Merlot that I just started aging this last weekend. The heavy-bodied kit seems a bargain, 16 liters of juice with delivery for $90.


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## Khristyjeff (Mar 6, 2021)

my wine said:


> LOL! They look identical. I'm curious, is the Fontana label a stick-on? BTW, I currently have a medium-bodied and a heavy-bodied Wine Lovers Merlot that I just started aging this last weekend. The heavy-bodied kit seems a bargain, 16 liters of juice with delivery for $90.


Both Fontana and Wine Lovers are stickers as well as Merlot and Malbec. And yes, $90 delivered is a good price.


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## Bohemiana (Aug 26, 2021)

We made some Fontana wines over the summer but this time when I looked on Amazon to purchase another kit (Sauvignon Blanc) from ABC Craft I noticed I need to choose if I want light, medium or full bodied and the prices go up. I noticed someone on this thread indicated the light body kit has less juice, so therefore to make the six gallons you just add more water? Seems like a total gimmick. By the way, we got 2 boxes of the chardonnay from Fontana (no choice in body style)...we made one unoaked, and divided the other kit into two 3-gallon carboys--one with American oak and one with French Oak. The American oak ended up not being very oaky so we added some French and let it sit another week. My favorite is the unoaked, my husband likes the oak bomb (both oaks) and we both like the French oak.

So what's the deal with choosing the type of body?? I'm getting ready to order and I'm tempted to order the cheapest and tweak myself.


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## Khristyjeff (Aug 26, 2021)

"So what's the deal with choosing the type of body?? I'm getting ready to order and I'm tempted to order the cheapest and tweak myself."
The body options also represent ABV. For example, the light body might be 7.5%, medium body 11%, and full body might be in the 13.5% range If you follow the directions. Then as you stated, you can always buy the low ABV option and tweak it. Have you read through the "Tweaking Cheap Kits" thread? 
Tonight we're enjoying an ABC Craft (Fontana) Medium-bodied that I made to 5 gallon instead of 6, and added a blackberry f-pac and oak chips to the primary, then some tannin in secondary. It's only 6 months old at this point and it tastes good. The tweaked ABV is 14.4%. 
Sounds like you're on the right track. Enjoy!


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## Bohemiana (Aug 26, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> The body options also represent ABV. For example, the light body might be 7.5%, medium body 11%, and full body might be in the 13.5% range If you follow the directions. Then as you stated, you can always buy the low ABV option and tweak it. Have you read through the "Tweaking Cheap Kits" thread?



I read that Tweaking thread before we started tweaking--my husband and I started doing kits straight but since then we've made about 5 different wine kits in various ways by adding wood chips, fruit rind, dried fruit, etc. It's fun and MUCH more interesting than just going with the straight kit. We have only enhanced the kits for flavor; we have not tweaked for higher ABV but I would really like to.

Isn't adding sugar what makes the ABV higher? I've heard of people actually adding a pound of sugar during fermentation. So is the kit manufacturer using some thing different in each of those kits to promise that higher ABV? More fruit, different fruit?? What specifically did you do to make a 11% up to 14%?


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## Khristyjeff (Aug 27, 2021)

"Isn't adding sugar what makes the ABV higher? I've heard of people actually adding a pound of sugar during fermentation. So is the kit manufacturer using some thing different in each of those kits to promise that higher ABV? More fruit, different fruit?? What specifically did you do to make a 11% up to 14%?"
I believe the difference in these kits is the amount of juice supplied with each one. The kit I mentioned above I got the higher ABV by shorting a 6 gallon kit to 5. Less water = higher ABV and more body. The fruit f-pac also adds some to the overall ABV as well as increase body. . You can also increase ABV by adding sugar (like you mentioned) and using your hydrometer to guide you. 
I agree with you that these cheaper kits are fun to experiment with and tend to be wines you can appreciate earlier than the high end red kits or grapes.


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## joeswine (Aug 27, 2021)

Keep thinking outside the box, it's fun.
Just don't forget making a good wine doesn't take a lot of tweaking just thinking. 
Know your base wines taste profile and work it from there.


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## Michael T (Aug 27, 2021)

@Khristyjeff in post # 27 you wrote "added a blackberry f-pac". Did you make the f-pac from the 'tweaking cheap kits' thread instructions or did you buy it pre-maid? I am very interested in the WineLovers kits.


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## Khristyjeff (Aug 27, 2021)

Michael T said:


> @Khristyjeff in post # 27 you wrote "added a blackberry f-pac". Did you make the f-pac from the 'tweaking cheap kits' thread instructions or did you buy it pre-maid? I am very interested in the WineLovers kits.


From the "tweaking cheap kits" thread. Hope you like it.


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## Bohemiana (Aug 28, 2021)

Bohemiana said:


> We made some Fontana wines over the summer but this time when I looked on Amazon to purchase another kit (Sauvignon Blanc) from ABC Craft I noticed I need to choose if I want light, medium or full bodied and the prices go up. I noticed someone on this thread indicated the light body kit has less juice, so therefore to make the six gallons you just add more water? Seems like a total gimmick. By the way, we got 2 boxes of the chardonnay from Fontana (no choice in body style)...we made one unoaked, and divided the other kit into two 3-gallon carboys--one with American oak and one with French Oak. The American oak ended up not being very oaky so we added some French and let it sit another week. My favorite is the unoaked, my husband likes the oak bomb (both oaks) and we both like the French oak.
> 
> So what's the deal with choosing the type of body?? I'm getting ready to order and I'm tempted to order the cheapest and tweak myself.



FYI--Regarding what specifically makes kits different in ABV, I got this answer on Amazon from a seller (ABC Cork Co) of ABC Crafted Series...

The light bodied kit is 4.8 L which makes a light kit and the heavy bodied kit is 16 L


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## joeswine (Aug 28, 2021)

Always keep in mind kits are just that a Kit, it's what you can do to them that makes the difference ,follow tweaking cheat wine kits an see.


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## grammatik (Sep 16, 2021)

joeswine said:


> Always keep in mind kits are just that a Kit, it's what you can do to them that makes the difference ,follow tweaking cheat wine kits an see.


I am debating between medium vs heavy bodied kit. Both are on sale and WL just send me a 10% coupon so looking at $51 delivered for MB and $81 HB. Looking at Pinot Noir, as it seems to have great reviews and based on the description, PN can be quite good even when young. Leaning towards MD and doing your recommended 5GL and f-pack. Spending a difference on oak and other supplies. Do you have any experience with these WL kits?


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## Steve Wargo (Sep 16, 2021)

grammatik said:


> I am debating between medium vs heavy bodied kit. Both are on sale and WL just send me a 10% coupon so looking at $51 delivered for MB and $81 HB. Looking at Pinot Noir, as it seems to have great reviews and based on the description, PN can be quite good even when young. Leaning towards MD and doing your recommended 5GL and f-pack. Spending a difference on oak and other supplies. Do you have any experience with these WL kits?


The medium-bodied turns out very good as long as you use the tweaks that you mentioned.


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## Khristyjeff (Sep 16, 2021)

I agree with @Steve Wargo.


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## joeswine (Sep 17, 2021)

Go to tweaking cheap wine kits you'll see the process I used on them ,that will.help.


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## Sailor323 (Dec 19, 2021)

I'm ready to start my first Wine Lovers kit--a medium body Gamay. Several people have commented on the amount of juice in the various kits. The medium bodied kits contain 5.2 litres of juice while the heavy bodied kits contain 16 litres. Both kinds make 23 litres of wine. My question is, "Do both kits contain the same juice?" That is, "Is the juice that comes in the medium bodied kit identical to the juice in the heavy bodied kit?" Or, "has more water been removed from the juice that comes with the medium body kit?"


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## Kantuckid (Dec 19, 2021)

We've been buying our coffee from Nut's.com, along with dried fruits like apricots and figs, also raisins. (I buy dates from direct sources) I like their medley of mixed raisins for eating out of hand. If you're thinking raisins or currants for adding to a wine kit-take a look/see at their many varieties, some I've never seen elsewhere. Thier ad came up on my page as I mentioned them...


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## joeswine (Dec 19, 2021)

Sun maid brand is what you should use read tweaking cheap wine kits for details and why .


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## Swedeman (Dec 20, 2021)

Khristyjeff said:


> I believe the difference in these kits is the amount of juice supplied with each one.


No, it can't be. The math doesn't add up.

4,8 liter giving an ABV of 7% gives an OG of the 23 liter to be around 1,046. That means the light body juice is 47 brix.
5,2 liter giving an ABV of 11% , the OG of the 23 liter need to be around 1,079. That means the medium body juice is 68 brix.
16 liter giving an ABV of 13,5%, the OG of the 23 liter need to be around 1,094. That means the heavy body juice is 31 brix.

You can made the juice packs in the light and heavy bodied kits by diluting the juice concentrate used in the medium kit. Grape juice concentrates are typically sold as 65-68 brix within the beverage industry, so i expect that to be their starting point. Anything else would add cost and complexity.

An approximation of how much single strength grape juice (assuming 25 brix, not from concentrate) there is in the three versions goes like this:
light body: 9,0 liter
medium body: 14,1 liter
heavy body: 19,8 liter

BTW if you make the light kit to 5 gallons instead of 6 gallons, the juice content will go from ~39% to ~47% but still less than the content in the medium kit ~61%. I had a look at the Wine lover web page and the state the prize to be 52.5 USD for the light body and 59,5 for the medium. I don't if that is average market prize but if you short the light body kit to 5 gallons, you will end up with 1) a higher prize per liter, 2) less juice in your batch and 3) an acidity that will be off compared to buying the medium kit instead..


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## Kantuckid (Dec 20, 2021)

joeswine, which of the 143 pages of "tweaking kits" has your reason for Sun maid Zante Currants? I wasted time going there to find a picture in the original post, but nothing else such as details & why?
In my small mind there are many types of wine & table grapes and similarly, many raisins made from those grapes. I've also mentioned earlier in another thread- I've got a bunch of wild grapes still hanging from the vine on our land that are sort of dried on the vine and intrigue me as an additive.
The Red Flame grape raisins sold by Nuts.com are often sold as a wine additive from kit sellers.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 20, 2021)

Sailor323 said:


> My question is, "Do both kits contain the same juice?"


The short answer is "no".

The 5.2 liter medium body kit _may_ contain no juice at all, just concentrate. The 1 liter concentrates I've used typically reconstitutes to 4 liters, so based upon that, a 5.2 liter kit that reconstitutes to 23 liters is all concentrate.

The 16 liter heavy body kit contains juice as well as concentrate, but we don't know if the concentrate is the same as the 5.2 liter kit.

With kits, we know very little that is concrete. A larger juice/concentrate bag _probably _has more juice in it, but we have no real information.


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## Swedeman (Dec 20, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> The 16 liter heavy body kit contains juice as well as concentrate, but we don't know if the concentrate is the same as the 5.2 liter kit.


I'm not sure why you say that? Their ingredients list has no "juice" in the list for the heavy body Merlot kit:

*Ingredients:* Grape juice concentrate (preserved with sulphur dioxide), liquid invert sugar, tartaric acid, malic acid, citric acid, tanin, ascorbic acid. Additives (included in Wine Kit) Packet A: Bentonite, Packet B: Potassium Metabisulphite, Packet C: Potassium Sorbate, Packet D: Clearing Agent (kieselsol/chitosane), Packet of Yeast. 

I don't know if you read my post above but it's highly unlikely that they should buy concentrates with such a different brix for the same grape, if even available. I haven't heard of any producer doing that during my 40-ish years in the food and beverage industry. Having said that, I only have experience of grape juice concentrates from Europe.

Is it mandatory for kit producers in USA or Canada to put "from concentrate" on the label if they have re-constituted a juice concentrate back to single strength? "Juice concentrate" and "water" becomes "juice" on the label and that way you can "improve" the label, "juice, water, juice concentrate" looks better than "juice concentrate, water". Even if it's exactly the same thing in the "juice" bag that you buy. I have seen numerous creative ways of improving labels over the years (in addition the the juice example, "dried onion" and "water" becomes "onion", "meat and fat" becomes "meat" etc etc). The only reason for a producer to buy a single strength juice would be for labeling reason IMHO.

And BTW, the ingredients list above doesn't contain "water" but it might have been included in the "grape juice concentrate".


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## winemaker81 (Dec 20, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> I'm not sure why you say that? Their ingredients list has no "juice" in the list for the heavy body Merlot kit:


For my last reply, I considered the situation, made rough calculations in my head, and came to a logical conclusion. For this one? I developed a couple of basic formulas.

I checked WineLovers site -- for Merlot (Bordeaux) the ABV for medium body is 11.5%, while for heavy body it's 13.5%. So the reconstituted must for each should be roughly 19.4 and 22.5 brix respectively, according to the translation table I used. [There are other tables, but the differences are not significant in this example.]

When reconstituting 5.2 liters with 17.8 liters of water to achieve 23 liters to get 19.4 brix, the bag contents are about 85 brix.

When reconstituting 16 liters with 7 liters of water to achieve to 23 liters to get 22.5 brix, the bag contents are about 32 brix.

My math may be off a bit, but regardless there is a huge difference between the brix in each bag. The most obvious explanations are the concentrates are different, the larger bag contains juice (well, a lot more juice), or both. If someone has a different explanation, I'd love to hear it.

I don't know about the US labeling laws regarding wine kits. For things like OJ, the label will state "made from concentrate" or something similar.


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## Swedeman (Dec 20, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> My math may be off a bit, but regardless there is a huge difference between the brix in each bag. The most obvious explanations are the concentrates are different, the larger bag contains juice (well, a lot more juice), or both. If someone has a different explanation, I'd love to hear it.


Not sure if my point came through but some producers hide the addition of water in the word "juice concentrate", both will be labelled as "juice concentrate" both being made from the SAME 85 brix concentrate to use your example:

Medium body: 5.2 liter with brix 85, labelled "juice concentrate"
heavy body: 16 liter with brix 32 made from the same 85 brix concentrate used in the medium body kit but with added water to make brix 32, still labelled "juice concentrate"without any "water" being labelled. It's still a "juice concentrate". (roughly 6 liter of the 85 brix concentrate and 10 liter of water).

If a buyer ask a grape juice concentrate producer to produce an 32 brix concentrate in addition to the standard 85-88 brix, I'm pretty sure they will ask why the buyer can't dilute it? (and in addition, if any of our product developers claimed he/she needed to buy a 32 brix concentrate, we would need to have a serious talk  )

An another remark here; all our calculations above should be taken with a grain of salt as they use "liquid invert sugar " in their formulations to boost brix.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 20, 2021)

Swedeman said:


> Not sure if my point came through but some producers hide the addition of water in the word "juice concentrate", both will be labelled as "juice concentrate" both being made from the SAME 85 brix concentrate to use your example:


I was going to reply to this point, but got caught up in my calculations and forgot.

Your point is a reasonable explanation, but I can't visualize the business sense in diluting the concentrate with water? Concentrates are used for cost, stability, and weight reasons. If concentrate-only made the best wine, all kits would be 5 liter kits. Juice is added to concentrates to improve quality, e.g., make better wine, although the addition increases cost and weight. The larger the juice/concentrate bag, supposedly the higher the quality of the resulting wine along with a higher price.

Jumping the final brix from 19.4 to 22.5 (16%) will probably improve the quality of the result, but not by that much. So why triple the weight of the kit? Is there a reason here I'm missing?

There's little likelihood we'll get a real answer, and on my part it's just conjecture. However, this is a fun discussion regardless of which theory (if any) is correct. It's got us thinking about the product we are buying.



Swedeman said:


> An another remark here; all our calculations above should be taken with a grain of salt as they use "liquid invert sugar " in their formulations to boost brix.


My calculations should be taken with several grains of salt!


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## Swedeman (Dec 20, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> If concentrate-only made the best wine, all kits would be 5 liter kits. Juice is added to concentrates to improve quality, e.g., make better wine, although the addition increases cost and weight. The larger the juice/concentrate bag, supposedly the higher the quality of the resulting wine along with a higher price.


Oh, I was discussing low end kits, perhaps a mistake. I thought wine lovers was low ends kits. I wasn't including the likes of WE, that I'm sure have juice in their premium kits.

But here is an interesting quote from Tim Vandergrift about labeling laws of re-hydrated concentrates:

*"Full-size kits*
_There are kits out there that start at the full 23 liters (6 gallons) in volume. These are distinguished from single-strength grape juice in that they are made at least in part from reconstituted concentrate. In some cases this may be a bit difficult to establish, as packaging laws allow rehydrated concentrate to be sold under the label “pure juice.” This is the reason why you see orange juice cartons in the supermarket that say “Pure Juice — Not From Concentrate.” However, all major manufacturers include labelling that indicates the presence of concentrate in their full-volume kits. As mentioned in the section above, concentrate is a great preservative, even after full dilution, and it ensures that the pH is low enough to prevent spoilage."_

That quote makes our guessing even more difficult, is the juice appearing on the label made from re-hydrated concentrate or not? I had a look at the ingredients list from a WE classic Sangiovese and in addition to juice concentrate and water there is "juice" on the label. Do WE ship single strength Sangiovese juice from Italy to Canada? Would that make sense from the costing side? Or are they using some juice that is from a more local source? 



winemaker81 said:


> There's little likelihood we'll get a real answer, and on my part it's just conjecture. However, this is a fun discussion regardless of which theory (if any) is correct. It's got us thinking about the product we are buying.


Agreed!


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## joeswine (Dec 20, 2021)

no Chems added .. check out a bag.


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## MHSKIBUM (Apr 22, 2022)

joeswine said:


> Sun maid brand is what you should use read tweaking cheap wine kits for details and why .


I wondered why I would pay for Sun Maid organic raisins when cheaper raisins were available for a third the price. Again, JoesWine came through. The result in several cheap reds was spectacular. As an added bonus, the Sun Maid raisins made my Scottish scones really jump.
Any thought on what I can add to a cheap White Zinfandel from Costco? It's one of those 60 bottle kits for $109. I've had pretty good results by just shorting the water but I'd like to bump it up a notch.


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## joeswine (Apr 23, 2022)

MHSKIBUM said:


> I wondered why I would pay for Sun Maid organic raisins when cheaper raisins were available for a third the price. Again, JoesWine came through. The result in several cheap reds was spectacular. As an added bonus, the Sun Maid raisins made my Scottish scones really jump.
> Any thought on what I can add to a cheap White Zinfandel from Costco? It's one of those 60 bottle kits for $109. I've had pretty good results by just shorting the water but I'd like to bump it up a notch.


Make a fresh batch of Strawberry fpac and add it to the primary, nice addition


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## joeswine (Aug 21, 2022)

Sun Maid is what I usek


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## Tbraz23 (Aug 22, 2022)

How have the wine lovers kits turned out noe that this thread is a few years old?


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## joeswine (Aug 22, 2022)

They are what they are. A middle of the raid kit for making a decent every day wine and to have fun in the making


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## fwdevoe (Aug 22, 2022)

My first kit I made was a WL can heavy body.
Followed instructions 100% and final wine was VERY light in body, in fact while wine was in carboy, you could see through it. Don't know what the issue was.


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## Khristyjeff (Aug 22, 2022)

Most, maybe all of the WL kits I've done have been medium body *with tweaks.* As Joe said, they can make a very nice weekday wine. 
I have my first heavy body WL kit ready to go so I'll probably be tempted to add an f-pac to that as well to increase body based on @fwdevoe comment. Thanks for the info.


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## Tbraz23 (Aug 22, 2022)

So with substantial tweaks the ~$55 kits level up with a ~$100 kit?


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## joeswine (Aug 27, 2022)

Not substantial just small tweaks


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## AR324 (Aug 27, 2022)

I made two. Both the heavy bodied. I did a Washington State Sauvignon Blanc. I tweaked it with Golden raisins and lime zest. I also did a Washington Merlot, tweaked with Merlot grape skins. Both came out better than I hoped. Very good every day table wines, maybe a notch above just good. 

If you have the money, I think WL heavy bodied kits are ideal to experiment with.


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## my wine (Aug 28, 2022)

I've made 4 or 5 various reds. All were tweaked slightly and all turned out very well. I have some going on 2 years and they age well so far. I will use them again.


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