# Reading chromatography paper



## wineview (Dec 9, 2021)

I just took my first reading using my kit and looking for confirmation. Would you agree that Bar1 and Bar2 still have Malic while the Old Zin seems to have none? The Old Zin still produces tiny bubbles floating to the neck of the carboy when shaken. I'll do another test in about two weeks. All of the samples have been in MLF for six weeks.

Thanks


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## cmason1957 (Dec 9, 2021)

I mostly agree with your assesment, the part I disagree with is that the Old Zin shows none. With chromotography anything below 50 ppm shows like your old zin. My advice is to wait at least another month, maybe two, with out opening to stir, shakng to stir is fine. Then test again. Don't worry, your wine will be fine, think to the old french winemakers 6-12 months before MLF is complete.


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## wineview (Dec 9, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I mostly agree with your assesment, the part I disagree with is that the Old Zin shows none. With chromotography anything below 50 ppm shows like your old zin. My advice is to wait at least another month, maybe two, with out opening to stir, shakng to stir is fine. Then test again. Don't worry, your wine will be fine, think to the old french winemakers 6-12 months before MLF is complete.


To be clear, you are saying that 50ppm is not acceptable.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 9, 2021)

wineview said:


> To be clear, you are saying that 50ppm is not acceptable.



I believe I read somewhere that anything above 30 PPM is a potential to kick back up at a later date. So I always wait a good long time to make sure it gets below that level. Just being blank isn't enough for me.


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## wineview (Dec 9, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I believe I read somewhere that anything above 30 PPM is a potential to kick back up at a later date. So I always wait a good long time to make sure it gets below that level. Just being blank isn't enough for me.


Well there is nothing less than blank. So you wait an additional month or so even after blank just to make sure? What about protecting the wine for extended periods with no sulfates.


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## mainshipfred (Dec 9, 2021)

I'm with Craig on this one. The accuracy of the chromatography is only an indicator. I thought it was higher than 50 ppm but he's probably right. Mine go for 3 months and as long as you are completely topped up there is little to no chance of oxidation, or at least I never experienced any.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 9, 2021)

wineview said:


> Well there is nothing less than blank. So you wait an additional month or so even after blank just to make sure? What about protecting the wine for extended periods with no sulfates.



I guess that's my point you have blank (and I was wrong about the level you get blank at its something like < 100 ppm, even worse than I remembered.) and completion is about < 30 ppm, so I let it sit, don't disturb it for about two months after any method I use (and I use the malic acid test strips, not chromatography) to tell me it is complete. Topped up wine is fine for a month or two with no sulfites added.

Here is a PDF to back up those numbers BTW - https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs...files/2016/11/MalolacticAcid3Ways-1d0igwg.pdf


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## wineview (Dec 10, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I guess that's my point you have blank (and I was wrong about the level you get blank at its something like < 100 ppm, even worse than I remembered.) and completion is about < 30 ppm, so I let it sit, don't disturb it for about two months after any method I use (and I use the malic acid test strips, not chromatography) to tell me it is complete. Topped up wine is fine for a month or two with no sulfites added.
> 
> Here is a PDF to back up those numbers BTW - https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs...files/2016/11/MalolacticAcid3Ways-1d0igwg.pdf


I have no problem leaving it another month or two but let me ask a question about temperature. The carboys are in my basement and will get down to 58-60* F. Currently I have the carboys in a tent heated by an electric oil filled radiator. I will be out of town for about a week and am reluctant to leave the radiator on unattended. Will there be any serious consequences if the wine gets cold for a week? Also, you mentioned not to disturb the carboys. Can you explain what that’s about?

thank you


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## cmason1957 (Dec 10, 2021)

I wouldn't worry about them being in your basement. I keep all my wines in my basement and it never gets much above 65 F down there, I never heat it. The don't disturb is more don't take the bung out and introduce new air into the mix, just go with what you have in the gap. If MLF is still ongoing, some CO2 will creep up there and push some of the oxygen out. I shake mine gently ever so often during the "resting" time (maybe finishing up time is a better explanation). Normally, during MLF you should stir gently every so often, but where you are, I leave mine alone mostly to finish as they can.


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## wineview (Dec 10, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I wouldn't worry about them being in your basement. I keep all my wines in my basement and it never gets much above 65 F down there, I never heat it. The don't disturb is more don't take the bung out and introduce new air into the mix, just go with what you have in the gap. If MLF is still ongoing, some CO2 will creep up there and push some of the oxygen out. I shake mine gently ever so often during the "resting" time (maybe finishing up time is a better explanation). Normally, during MLF you should stir gently every so often, but where you are, I leave mine alone mostly to finish as they can.


Really, 65* and MLF completes? I was under the impression that the wine needed to be rather warm. Thanks for that tip. I’ve got 1.5” between wine and bottom of bung. Is that topped off enough?


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## mainshipfred (Dec 10, 2021)

wineview said:


> Really, 65* and MLF completes? I was under the impression that the wine needed to be rather warm. Thanks for that tip. I’ve got 1.5” between wine and bottom of bung. Is that topped off enough?



I couldn't confirm whether it is or isn't though I keep mine between 1/4" and 1/2"


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## Mario Dinis (Dec 10, 2021)

Always learning something new here.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 10, 2021)

wineview said:


> Really, 65* and MLF completes? I was under the impression that the wine needed to be rather warm. Thanks for that tip. I’ve got 1.5” between wine and bottom of bung. Is that topped off enough?





mainshipfred said:


> I couldn't confirm whether it is or isn't though I keep mine between 1/4" and 1/2"



I'm with Fred, mine are topped up more like 1/4" to 1/2", maybe as much as 3/4". Less is better, is my thinking.


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## SLM (Dec 10, 2021)

Related question (I think). Some instructions say that when MLF is done you should rack and sulphite. In my case, MLF is done but we're still churning CO2. Am I not better off waiting for the wine to de-gas before racking?


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## mainshipfred (Dec 10, 2021)

SLM said:


> Related question (I think). Some instructions say that when MLF is done you should rack and sulphite. In my case, MLF is done but we're still churning CO2. Am I not better off waiting for the wine to de-gas before racking?



Assuming you already fermented to dry I would thing you would want to rack and sulfite. You will diminish your protective blanket if you wait until it is degassed.


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## Cap Puncher (Dec 11, 2021)

Personally I let it go, 1 (maybe 2 weeks) more after the malic spot is gone (especially if you have a heated room). I also take a picture with is directly behind a light (canned ceiling lights work well). I then adjust the contrast on the picture. When doing this you can detect a faint spot when you are not sure. See examples to see the contrast.

Also, here is a interesting article about all types of refermentation from Purdue extension. It states that even if you had a bit of malic left, most likely it won’t cause and issue of spritzing the wine or popping corks. The give examples. Kinda interesting.After I read this the 1st time, I don’t worry about malic as much as I used to.

Lastly conditions of the wine and malolactic bacteria type goes into my decision to rack/ sulfite as well. VP41 and Alpha have favorable ML kinetics on most wines. If my conditions are favorable with no malic spot, I’m a lot more likely to rack and sulfite quicker.


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## wineview (Dec 12, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I'm with Fred, mine are topped up more like 1/4" to 1/2", maybe as much as 3/4". Less is better, is my thinking.


Topped off to 1/2".


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## wineview (Dec 12, 2021)

Cap Puncher said:


> Personally I let it go, 1 (maybe 2 weeks) more after the malic spot is gone (especially if you have a heated room). I also take a picture with is directly behind a light (canned ceiling lights work well). I then adjust the contrast on the picture. When doing this you can detect a faint spot when you are not sure. See examples to see the contrast.
> 
> Also, here is a interesting article about all types of refermentation from Purdue extension. It states that even if you had a bit of malic left, most likely it won’t cause and issue of spritzing the wine or popping corks. The give examples. Kinda interesting.After I read this the 1st time, I don’t worry about malic as much as I used to.
> 
> Lastly conditions of the wine and malolactic bacteria type goes into my decision to rack/ sulfite as well. VP41 and Alpha have favorable ML kinetics on most wines. If my conditions are favorable with no malic spot, I’m a lot more likely to rack and sulfite quicker.


Great idea placing the paper in front of a light. I guess I have a ways to go.


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## BarrelMonkey (Dec 20, 2021)

So I just did ML chromatography on my 2021 pinot noir and it looks like it worked well. I double loaded the wine samples in an effort to see any small residual signals; also looked in front of a bright light as suggested above (though the following photo is reflected light with the contrast enhanced):





T,L,M are controls, of course. BBL, 5g and 3g are barrel, 3 gal and 5 gal carboys; these all had ML culture added. HP is a hard press keg; this started to smell oxidized so I added some SO2 (and this one didn't get ML culture; it won't make it into my final wine). E is elderberry wine, I plan to post about it in a separate thread.

Also, the barrel and carboys no longer sound like they're fizzing so I plan to add SO2 in the next week.


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## wineview (Dec 20, 2021)

BarrelMonkey said:


> So I just did ML chromatography on my 2021 pinot noir and it looks like it worked well. I double loaded the wine samples in an effort to see any small residual signals; also looked in front of a bright light as suggested above (though the following photo is reflected light with the contrast enhanced):
> 
> 
> View attachment 82420
> ...


I usually do five touches on the paper letting the dots dry in between.


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## cmason1957 (Dec 20, 2021)

I would let your barrel and carboys go at least two weeks more and probably a month more. You still have Malic spots showing and chromotography shows clear at about 100 PPM, MLF completion is generally considered to be 30 PPM or less. If you do decide to add SO2, I would also suggest lysozome to ensure MLF doesn't kick back up later.


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## BarrelMonkey (Dec 20, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I would let your barrel and carboys go at least two weeks more and probably a month more.



You're right, I should probably give it a few weeks. But I think there will always be a trace of a spot on the chromatogram, even when ML is done...


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## wineview (Dec 21, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I would let your barrel and carboys go at least two weeks more and probably a month more. You still have Malic spots showing and chromotography shows clear at about 100 PPM, MLF completion is generally considered to be 30 PPM or less. If you do decide to add SO2, I would also suggest lysozome to ensure MLF doesn't kick back up later.



chromotography shows clear at about 100 PPM
What indicators bring you to such a precise conclusion?


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## mainshipfred (Dec 21, 2021)

I found this with a quick search though there are several articles referencing it.



https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cornell.edu/dist/0/7265/files/2016/11/MalolacticAcid3Ways-1d0igwg.pdf


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## wineview (Dec 21, 2021)

mainshipfred said:


> I found this with a quick search though there are several articles referencing it.
> 
> 
> 
> https://cpb-us-e1.wpmucdn.com/blogs.cornell.edu/dist/0/7265/files/2016/11/MalolacticAcid3Ways-1d0igwg.pdf


Yes I see the dots lining up evenly with the Malic dot. Is that considered 100ppm?


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## cmason1957 (Dec 21, 2021)

wineview said:


> chromotography shows clear at about 100 PPM
> What indicators bring you to such a precise conclusion?



100 PPM (also represented as 0.1 g/l) is the generally recognized lower limit for Paper Chromatography. There are several references available to back up that number. The 30 PPM number can be found in many of these and other articles as well.





__





Monitoring the malolactic fermentation of wine


I have recently described the malolactic fermentation process . In general, a winemaker needs to be able to tell if/when MLF has commenced, ...




mowse.blogspot.com












HOW TO DO PAPER CHROMATOGRAPHY FOR MLF - MUSTO WINE


How winemakers (& some commercial winemakers) check to see if their wines have completed malolactic fermentation or if they are still in the process of it.



blog.juicegrape.com






https://vinmetrica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Malic_testing_comparisons_original_SC-50.pdf




https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279544726_An_improved_means_of_monitoring_malolactic_fermentation_in_wines_by_TLC-Densitometry


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## cmason1957 (Dec 21, 2021)

wineview said:


> Yes I see the dots lining up evenly with the Malic dot. Is that considered 100ppm?



Not really, the dots will line up, it's the nature of Chromotography. The lack of a malic acid spot doesn't mean that MLF is complete, it stops showing up, when your Malic acid level reaches about 100 Parts per Million, but you should not consider MLF completed and not going to fire back up until you reach lower than that or 30 PPM.


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## wineview (Dec 21, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> Not really, the dots will line up, it's the nature of Chromotography. The lack of a malic acid spot doesn't mean that MLF is complete, it stops showing up, when your Malic acid level reaches about 100 Parts per Million, but you should not consider MLF completed and not going to fire back up until you reach lower than that or 30 PPM.


Just to be clear. No spots is 100 ppm but leave the wine alone for say another month to be sure it drops to 30ppm?


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## cmason1957 (Dec 21, 2021)

wineview said:


> Just to be clear. No spots is 100 ppm but leave the wine alone for say another month to be sure it drops to 30ppm?



Waiting for MLF to complete fully is always a good idea and yes, you stated what I suggest perfectly.


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