# honey wine and botulism?



## BernardSmith

I have made a few batches of mead and I don't boil the honey. The pH is likely to be around 3.5 or lower and the ABV around 10 - 12 %. How concerned should I be about the possibility that there may be spores of botulism in the wine? Are there any biologists or microbiologists in this forum who can point me to some peer reviewed research in this topic? Thanks.


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## WVMountaineerJack

Seriously? They say you are not supposed to give honey to infants due to botulism, but people have been doing it for thousands of years, if you eat your honey raw dont you think you could drink your mead? For that matter ANY fruit you pick, in the wild or on a farm has the potential for botulism bacterial, or those nasty ECOLI from fruit that fell on the ground and got picked up anyway. Is your next question going to be about how safe is your hard cider? WVMJ


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## Stressbaby

I think it is a reasonable question, but I think the answer is "not at all concerned."
Infants <12 months can have trouble, but nobody else should. In the unlikely event that spores could survive the alcoholic environment, it would only be a problem if you are putting the wine in a bottle for an infant.


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## BernardSmith

Thanks, Stressbaby. I was talking with a faculty member at my college who has just had published a scholarly book on food and he had mentioned how many popular ideas about food ignore or are ignorant of folk ideas and are equally ignorant of the science of food which can leave us quite vulnerable and so for example, the Center for Disease Control indicates the increased incidence of many bacterial infections caused by novel ways of preparing foods and drinks - for example, a traditional way of preparing a certain kind of pickled food involved burying it in the ground. When folk with 20th century sensibilities started to use buckets and barrels they in fact created anaerobic environments which radically altered the environment resulting in the welcome of very different bacteria. 
I guess my point is that I don't consider any health hazards I may be creating (how safe is the use of copper in beer making?) but I am not sure if my lack of concern is because of what I don't know or because of what I do know. BIG difference.


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## vernsgal

BernardSmith said:


> I am not sure if my lack of concern is because of what I don't know or because of what I do know. BIG difference.



Now that is a memorable quote !


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## SouthernChemist

I believe the pH of a typical mead/wine is too low (typically ~4.5 - 7.0 is required) for the bacteria to grow and reproduce, which is the only way for the toxin to be produced. The toxin itself is a protein produced by the bacteria and not the bacterial spores themselves. Unless you prepared the mead in an unsanitary environment where the bacteria have already grown and produced the toxin, I doubt you'd have anything to worry about. There very well could be spores in the honey used, but the bacteria are common. Your digestive system will make quick work of any spores that make it that far.


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## BernardSmith

SouthernChemist, Thank you. I thought the pH needed to allow the reproduction of the bacteria was significantly higher than the pH I aim for for all my wines. So my concern has been completely allayed. 
Vernsgal, I have a few other very memorable quotes I can offer if only I could remember what they were.


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## WVMountaineerJack

I would be much more worried about hitting yourself in the head pulling out a stubborn cork with a cork screw  WVMJ


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## fatbloke

Well having just read this, I thought that BernardSmiths question had merit.

Yet at the same time don't have anything other than anecdotal guidance/suggestions......

I too, understood at the fermentation stage, the pH sorts out most problems like this (excluding other yeasts), then after the brew passes about 10% ABV, its the alcohol content that becomes the saviour......

I've certainly never heard of any alcoholic drinks be problematic other than beers. And even then the issues are that the beer makers have to be anal about kit and material hygiene as there are many more microbes around that are injurious to beers at many stages of the making.......

As with many parts of western society, we can be too obsessed. Dairy products are much more sensitive than booze. Even the few health scares they've experienced in France, I understand that theyve all been connected to places that use pasteurised milk, so places like the US and UK (too a lesser extent) aren't as perfect as we like to think.

Hygiene standards in the meat world border on the excessive, yet it does seem most likely that NvCJD is a development caused, most likely, from industrial feed manufacturers. Or that when there's an outbreak of Ecoli 0156 in minced/ground products there's only the one probable source (baring in mind that the US eats a higher proportion than Europe of those) and that is that there's sh1t in the meat somehow and thats generally via abattoir or process/packing plant related....

I for one, am not prepared to live in a sterile bubble. I'm happy to learn of potential hazards and then make my own mind up.

I'm just off to open another pack of epoises cheese to dip me bread sticks in......but if you don't like the smell ? Tough..... (not the cheese though)


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## vernsgal

fatbloke said:


> I for one, am not prepared to live in a sterile bubble. I'm happy to learn of potential hazards and then make my own mind up.
> 
> I'm just off to open another pack of epoises cheese to dip me bread sticks in......but if you don't like the smell ? Tough..... (not the cheese though)


I'll drink to that


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