# Raspberry concentrate



## silverbullet07 (May 8, 2021)

@hounddawg @winemaker81 @Rice_Guy @Scooter68 @reeflections @sour_grapes @cmason1957 

This is a continuation of the issue I am having with my concentrates not fermenting dry.
this is a new batch of raspberry. seems to stalled at the same SG 1.010 Again

5.5 gal raspberry. Used K1-V1116 added yeast nutrients 

SG 1.110 PH 3.32

4-27 pitched yeast. Kept room 70 degrees, on pallet 
stirred 2 x a day
5-1 SG 1.030 - added 2 tsp additional nutrient. 
5-3 SG 1.010 - placed lid on bucket air locked 
5-6 SG 1.010
5-8 SG 1.010

On Currently in primary bucket with lid and air locked. It’s been 11 days, Should I keep waiting? Continue to leave in primary bucket? Been 1.010 5 days. 

Seems no matter what I do, my concentrates will not go dry. I started it at SG 1.110 thinking it would stop at 1.010 and it looks it has.

seems adding the pallet did not work. Adding nutrient at 1.030 did not work.


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## Rice_Guy (May 8, 2021)

pH looks good, I am there often
gravity is high which could cause the issue
* what is the TA? you could consider removing some with calcium carbonate like cranberry folks do, basically start with a milder pH of 3.4 or 3.5
* oxygen? meads get restarted by whipping air in
* step feeding is done on some hard ferments, in this case hold some juice in the fridge and add concentrate when the innoculated active ferment gets down to 1.015 or 1,020


silverbullet07 said:


> SG 1.110 PH 3.32, , , 5.5 gal raspberry. Used K1-V1116 added yeast nutrients


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## silverbullet07 (May 8, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> pH looks good, I am there often
> gravity is high which could cause the issue
> * what is the TA? you could consider removing some with calcium carbonate like cranberry folks do, basically start with a milder pH of 3.4 or 3.5
> * oxygen? meads get restarted by whipping air in
> * step feeding is done on some hard ferments, in this case hold some juice in the fridge and add concentrate when the innoculated active ferment gets down to 1.015 or 1,020



I used calcium carbonate to get the ph from 2.8 to 3.4. Used 11 tsp.
the high SG was because they stop at 1.010 no matter if I start them it at 1.090. Been there stopped and only had 10%. So increased to 1.110 so now 13.4%.
I stirred all the way to 1.010 and after.


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## winemaker81 (May 8, 2021)

Is this the Colonna (sp?) concentrate?

Since this is a consistent issue for you, the cause is probably something in the ingredients, environment, and/or process. Nothing you've described sounds like a problem, so I suspect the ingredients. 

K1-V1116 appears to be a good choice -- however, the Lalvin facts sheet says it needs lots O2. I suggest taking the lid off, and continue stirring daily. Dosing it with EC-1118 is a possibility, although the K1 should be fine.

Don't start with an SG above 1.100. From reading a lot of posts, this appears to be a dividing line above which folks have more problems. In my own experience, I've fermented 6 batches of grapes in the last couple years with SG of 1.100 to 1.102, and had no problems.


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## silverbullet07 (May 8, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Is this the Colonna (sp?) concentrate?
> 
> Since this is a consistent issue for you, the cause is probably something in the ingredients, environment, and/or process. Nothing you've described sounds like a problem, so I suspect the ingredients.
> 
> ...



when I did fresh fruit it has been no problem. Seems only with concentrates. It has been colonnade and another. Starting SG did not matter either. My first was only 1.090 And stopped at 1.010.

I guess I’ll just start at 1.110 and plan it stopping at 1.010. all my fruit need back sweeten anyway.


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## hounddawg (May 8, 2021)

sounds like a real conundrum, only trouble even close to this is,, I got lazy and started a apple with a SG 1.140, it went all the way to dry , but it took me better than 3 weeks, but a SG of 1.100 to 1.120 always go clean to dry, and i only keep EC-1118 and K1V-1116,,, but after that apple i keep all mine SSG of 1.100 or lower..., on this particular problem,,, I'm clueless,,, AND TO ALL THE REST OF YAWI, yes I know I am clueless on everything,,, 
Dawg


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## winemaker81 (May 8, 2021)

silverbullet07 said:


> I guess I’ll just start at 1.110 and plan it stopping at 1.010. all my fruit need back sweeten anyway.


I'm with @hounddawg, don't start above 1.100. If you want a higher ABV, step feed the wine.

If using concentrate, try a different brand. The 2 you've tried should not be stopping at 1.010.


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## hounddawg (May 9, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I'm with @hounddawg, don't start above 1.100. If you want a higher ABV, step feed the wine.
> 
> If using concentrate, try a different brand. The 2 you've tried should not be stopping at 1.010.


yep, that puzzles the heck out of me, i seen where @silverbullet07 on one was a 5.5 must, so it should not be stress the yeast,


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## hounddawg (May 9, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I'm with @hounddawg, don't start above 1.100. If you want a higher ABV, step feed the wine.
> 
> If using concentrate, try a different brand. The 2 you've tried should not be stopping at 1.010.


yep, that puzzles the heck out of me, i seen where @silverbullet07 on one was a 5.5 must, so it should not be stress the yeast, and I've done a colomafrozen concentrate or two, i got from them peach and pear, which I had planed to have already started, but life got in the way, fixing fence, planting the garden, and a few more things, tomorrow will be spent at my parents home,, and my brother said we are in for several days of rain, i doubt I'll start in muggy weather, this treak makes breathing tough, doe kno
Dawg


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## Arne (May 9, 2021)

Have you checked your hydrometer to make sure it is reading right? Arne.


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## silverbullet07 (May 9, 2021)

Arne said:


> Have you checked your hydrometer to make sure it is reading right? Arne.


Yes.


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## silverbullet07 (May 9, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I'm with @hounddawg, don't start above 1.100. If you want a higher ABV, step feed the wine.
> 
> If using concentrate, try a different brand. The 2 you've tried should not be stopping at 1.010.


The first raspberry I did was 1.090 ph 3.37 and stopped at 1.010.
peach was 1.098 ph 3.39 and stopped at 1.010
blackberry was 1.116 ph 3.34 stopped at 1.010
second raspberry 1.110 ph 3.32 stopped at 1.010

The last couple I started them higher knowing they will stop at 1.010 So I have at least 12% potential after back sweeten.


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## cmason1957 (May 9, 2021)

I wonder if pulling out enough wine to float your hydrometer and then heating it to drive off CO2 might help?


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## silverbullet07 (May 9, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I wonder if pulling out enough wine to float your hydrometer and then heating it to drive off CO2 might help?


I doubt it. After 7 months aging the SG never changed on my other one.


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## Michael T (May 9, 2021)

@silverbullet07 Can you taste residual sugar with these that have stuck at 1.010 ?
I am "Coloma curious"


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## silverbullet07 (May 9, 2021)

Michael T said:


> @silverbullet07 Can you taste residual sugar with these that have stuck at 1.010 ?
> I am "Coloma curious"


I can not tell. I have to back sweeten anyway for the fruits I do and don’t seem to taste it but my wine is fruit heavy and bold.


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## hounddawg (May 9, 2021)

what about your water sconce ?
Dawg


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## silverbullet07 (May 9, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> what about your water sconce ?
> Dawg


Natural well water. Have a large filtration system that removes all iron and hardness. However it is the same water I use on the ones I ferment with fruit and it goes dry. Only difference between what I do has been ph. With my fruit i checked ph on them and they were 3.53-3.55 while my concentrates have been 3.35-3.38. Lots of people shoot for 3.38 so don’t see that an issue.


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## hounddawg (May 9, 2021)

no, i was spit balling.
Dawg


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## Scooter68 (May 9, 2021)

Two things to think about one you probably can resolve immediately. How long after you added the calcium carbonate did you check the pH? That stuff works slow so if you checked say 30 - 90 mins after adding, the pH may have changed even more up into like 3.8 or higher. If you have to add calcium carbonate I'd wait at least 8-12 hours before pitching yeast so that I can be certain I didn't over shoot the addition. (Raise the numbers too high.) 11 tsp is a LOT of that stuff to add at one time. Personally I'd be tempted to go ahead and start a batch if the pH was anywhere between 3.15 and 3.6. I've had a blueberry do fine starting at 3.18 so if other conditions are good I would make a run at a batch that was a below 3.4 but never above 3.6. 
Number two - I'd try to get that room temp up. I don't seem to recall many issues when the room temp is in the mid to upper 70s. 
Of course the step feeding could help but if a must starts at 1.090 and still stalls.... 

Hope it doesn't turn out be the fruit source because there are fewer and fewer good reliable sources of fruit concentrates these days.


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## silverbullet07 (May 9, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Two things to think about one you probably can resolve immediately. How long after you added the calcium carbonate did you check the pH? That stuff works slow so if you checked say 30 - 90 mins after adding, the pH may have changed even more up into like 3.8 or higher. If you have to add calcium carbonate I'd wait at least 8-12 hours before pitching yeast so that I can be certain I didn't over shoot the addition. (Raise the numbers too high.) 11 tsp is a LOT of that stuff to add at one time. Personally I'd be tempted to go ahead and start a batch if the pH was anywhere between 3.15 and 3.6. I've had a blueberry do fine starting at 3.18 so if other conditions are good I would make a run at a batch that was a below 3.4 but never above 3.6.
> Number two - I'd try to get that room temp up. I don't seem to recall many issues when the room temp is in the mid to upper 70s.
> Of course the step feeding could help but if a must starts at 1.090 and still stalls....
> 
> Hope it doesn't turn out be the fruit source because there are fewer and fewer good reliable sources of fruit concentrates these days.



i had added 9 tsp and waited 24 hours and then retested and added 3 more and waited another 12 hours, tested and pitched yeast. It was originally around 2.8. 5.5 gals Of must.


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## Rice_Guy (May 9, 2021)

silverbullet07 said:


> i had added 9 tsp and waited 24 hours and then retested and added 3 more and waited another 12 hours, tested and pitched yeast. It was originally around 2.8. 5.5 gals Of must.


Calcium carbonate has low solubility/ it is basically ground up limestone/ it tends to settle before fully reacting. Potassium is soluble and reacts quickly. Too bad you can’t have reagent grade sodium hydroxide. 
My way to use Calcium carbonate is to mix some in to part of the juice, stirring twice a day to resuspend it. Refrigerate the bulk of the juice till the pH correction is stable mix and run.


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## Scooter68 (May 9, 2021)

Sounds like it is possible that as time went on more of the calcium carbonate might have entered the mix and altered the pH more - IF you added it and kept the must in the same container to start the ferment. Long shot but and it's still 20/20 hindsight. 
Biggest thing I could suggest would be warmer temps for starting ferment and then still keep it at or a little above 70 as you did.

One of the mysteries of wine making.


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## Rice_Guy (May 10, 2021)

a gut feel (answer) without having all the info 
* the problem wine is being made with a high solids concentrate, loosely translated a naturally produced wine may have 0.5% dry solids once all the water and alcohol is evaporated in a moisture oven. This wine from Coloma concentrate may be five or so times normal ie 2% or 2.5% moisture oven “stuff.”
* the hydrometer is measuring stuff in the water. In the lab I would calibrate a new hydrometer by mixing a series of salt solutions, ie a series of more “stuff“ in the water. More “stuff” also known as dry solids gives a higher hydrometer reading in a food as wine.
* at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the fermentable sugars are actually zero and what the hydrometer is actually measuring is called “sugar free dry extract” ,,,,,, ie the reading is an artifact.

? If you had a moisture set up to test dry solids it would answer a few guesses. ,,, I have not used Coloma so I don’t know what their specification sheet says about dry solids.

an interesting problem


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## stickman (May 10, 2021)

@Rice_Guy may have a good point. Coloma indicates that their raspberry concentrate would be 9 brix if diluted to 100% juice equivalent, so for example, if water addition is limited to achieve 18 brix the dry solids would be 2x. When using 100% fresh fruit you don't have that option.


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## Raptor99 (May 10, 2021)

Rice_Guy said:


> a gut feel (answer) without having all the info
> * the problem wine is being made with a high solids concentrate, loosely translated a naturally produced wine may have 0.5% dry solids once all the water and alcohol is evaporated in a moisture oven. This wine from Coloma concentrate may be five or so times normal ie 2% or 2.5% moisture oven “stuff.”
> * the hydrometer is measuring stuff in the water. In the lab I would calibrate a new hydrometer by mixing a series of salt solutions, ie a series of more “stuff“ in the water. More “stuff” also known as dry solids gives a higher hydrometer reading in a food as wine.
> * at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if the fermentable sugars are actually zero and what the hydrometer is actually measuring is called “sugar free dry extract” ,,,,,, ie the reading is an artifact.
> ...



That is a good point. The hydrometer does not directly measure sugar content. We may assume that the amount of other dissolved solids is negligible, but if that is not the case the readings would all be too high.

Does it taste a little bit sweet? If not, fermentation might be finished. If so and you like the level of sweetness, you can stabilize and bottle.


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## silverbullet07 (May 10, 2021)

Raptor99 said:


> That is a good point. The hydrometer does not directly measure sugar content. We may assume that the amount of other dissolved solids is negligible, but if that is not the case the readings would all be too high.
> 
> Does it taste a little bit sweet? If not, fermentation might be finished. If so and you like the level of sweetness, you can stabilize and bottle.


I think it taste dry to me. I would have to sweeten it after it clears and ages some.


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## silverbullet07 (May 10, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Sounds like it is possible that as time went on more of the calcium carbonate might have entered the mix and altered the pH more - IF you added it and kept the must in the same container to start the ferment. Long shot but and it's still 20/20 hindsight.
> Biggest thing I could suggest would be warmer temps for starting ferment and then still keep it at or a little above 70 as you did.
> 
> One of the mysteries of wine making.


I will do another ph test and see how much it changed.


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## Raptor99 (May 11, 2021)

silverbullet07 said:


> I think it taste dry to me. I would have to sweeten it after it clears and ages some.



In that case I would not be concerned about the SG at all. If you let it clear for a few months you can be confident that fermentation has stopped. Then stabilize and backsweeten to taste.


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## Scooter68 (May 11, 2021)

The only tough call here is IF Rice_Guy is correct, and the SG ready was not a true measure of the sugar content, then there is no way to ever know where your actual ABV ended up. If that is in fact the situation, then that supplier's juice would not be a good choice unless you have some easy and reliable way of determining the actual sugar content of the juice before starting a ferment.


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## Raptor99 (May 11, 2021)

If you believe that the fermentation is finished, then you can compute ABV by the change in SG. But if it is not finished, you do not know for sure. In my case, if my ABV calculation is a little bit off I don't really care. If it is in the right ball park that is good enough.


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## winemaker81 (May 12, 2021)

I keep thinking about this situation -- if fermentation is stopping at 1.010 because of non-sugar solids in the wine ... what is it??

Contact the vendor and ask questions, see what they have to say.


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## Scooter68 (May 12, 2021)

Let me put my ignorance on full display here. When we speak of solids impacting the SG - that means those solids are 1) Heavier than water and 2) In suspension. Otherwise the solids would fall out quickly or in a few hours/days.

Am I missing something? 

Solids like that would consist of what?


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## winemaker81 (May 12, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Let me put my ignorance on full display here.


Your thinking matches mine, so we're both ignorant on this topic, as is (it appears) everyone else.

Other than stuck fermentations and commercial drinking juices, I've never had a wine with a FG above 0.996. I have no clue what can be suspended in the wine to keep the SG at 1.010.

If we are talking beer? No problem. I can't recall more than 1 or 2 batches where the FG was below 1.010, as beer has a lot of particles in it.

It appears we have eliminated all other factors, so it appears to be something in the juice. IIRC, @silverbullet07 said he got the same result from 2 different brands. I'm wondering if those 2 brands are produced at the same factory or using the same process.



Raptor99 said:


> In my case, if my ABV calculation is a little bit off I don't really care. If it is in the right ball park that is good enough.


Agreed. Besides, there is no accurate formula for calculating ABV. There are at least 3 formulas I have identified. Each is for a different ABV range, e.g., if the ABV is between 14% and 18%, use formula 1, between 9% and 14%, use formula 2, etc. [the ranges are for illustration, I don't recall the actual ranges off the top of my head.]

Any figure we calculate is an approximation. But for home winemakers? Close enough.


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## Rice_Guy (May 12, 2021)

stabilize? my standard method has been if it is nine months it probably won’t refermenting after back sweetening, and if it is a year it has been safe.


Raptor99 said:


> In that case I would not be concerned about the SG at all. If you let it clear for a few months you can be confident that fermentation has stopped. Then stabilize and backsweeten





winemaker81 said:


> I keep thinking about this situation -- if fermentation is stopping at 1.010 because of non-sugar solids in the wine *... what is it??*


I didn’t find numbers for juice and didn’t call a juice vendor for their specification sheet,
Food (nutritional) analysis on fresh raspberries:
moisture . . .86% , , , , ,(84% moisture per nutrition text)
sugar . . . . . 6.5% , , , , (total carbohydrate 13.8% per 1970 nutrition text)
fiber . . . . . . 4.3%. , , , ,(this will largely be removed making a processed juice product)
protein . . . . 1.1%
fat . . . . . . . . 0.8%
ash . . . . . . . 0.5% , , , ,(minerals/ salts which will be concentrated)
_as a guess moisture on Coloma concentrate is 20%, fiber half a percent, and everything else becomes concentrated. The sugar goes away in fermentation and is replaced with alcohol and CO2_


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## stickman (May 12, 2021)

The other materials that can affect the gravity are dissolved not suspended, most likely acids and salts associated with neutralizing the acid. These materials are at higher than usual levels due to using multiple times the concentrate to increase the starting gravity of the must.


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## Rice_Guy (May 12, 2021)

Scooter68 said:


> Solids like what would consist of what?


the normal minerals


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## silverbullet07 (May 12, 2021)

This is all good information but sadly way above my beginner skills..


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## winemaker81 (May 12, 2021)

@silverbullet07, some of the details presented on WMT surpass my decades old Chem 101 and 102 from freshman year in college. You are not alone if some of it is overwhelming. Personally, I like the detail provided, even when it's over my head, as I figure someone is getting value from it, and it often spurs me to do a bit of research. Folks like @Rice_Guy have reactivated a lot of the chem and bio I thought I had long forgotten!

At this point you need a summary:

1) The wines are not fermenting below 1.010 and we collectively have no answer why.

2) The wines taste fairly dry and need backsweetening.

3) Overall, the wines taste fine.

IMO, bulk age as long as you want, stabilize, backsweeten, bottle, and don't sweat the details.

For future batches, don't start with an SG above 1.100, use a high potency yeast like EC-1118, and step feed if the ABV appears lower than 10%, or if you simply want to. Use small increments, e.g., 1.010 fed to 1.020, and if the yeast gives up, you don't have a wine sweeter than you want.

One option is to start with a lower potency yeast, and when it appears to hit its limit, add a yeast such as EC-1118. You have a lot of choices.

The important lesson learned is that not every batch is going to turn out as well as we want. Make the best of every situation.

E.g., my 2019 Malbec has an off-taste I really dislike. Backsweetening it slightly with 100% cherry juice reduced the off-taste, but it's never going to be my buddy. My younger son likes it so I gave him a case, and next time he visits he'll get another case. It makes good cooking wine, and when you have 7 cases, it's _really_ easy to dump a bottle into a pot of spaghetti sauce or use half a bottle in a marinade. I taste a bit every time I cook with it, and it's not getting better IMO. This is not a problem as I have ways of using it up!


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## Rice_Guy (May 12, 2021)

well said!
[QUOTE="winemaker81, post: 794575, member: 62"
3) Overall, the wines taste fine.
bulk age as long as you want, stabilize, backsweeten, bottle, and don't sweat the details.
[/QUOTE]


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## Scooter68 (May 12, 2021)

OK - The mud clears some and thickens some for me. 

Salt I understand. EG -The Dead Sea - where salt concentration is so high the a person floats nicely without even trying to do so.

Note: the SG of the dead sea is 1.3 and rising (Sorry my source only provided 1 digit to the right of the decimal.)

Of course a significant amount of common salt would ruin the flavor but I'm beginning to get the idea.


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## silverbullet07 (Feb 6, 2022)

This raspberry was bottled today,. Turned it into Chocolate Raspberry. 14.5% abv.


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## Raptor99 (Feb 6, 2022)

Looks great! How did you add the chocolate flavor?


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## silverbullet07 (Feb 6, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> Looks great! How did you add the chocolate flavor?


I added toasted cocoa nibs after secondary. Then when I back sweeten it, I add Torani Puremade Chocolate Milano syrup.


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## Ohio Bob (Feb 6, 2022)

silverbullet07 said:


> I added toasted cocoa nibs after secondary. Then when I back sweeten it, I add Torani Puremade Chocolate Milano syrup.


I’ve used Torani dark chocolate sauce but it seemed to drop out like lees and not dissolve into the wine. How did you add it?


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## Raptor99 (Feb 6, 2022)

Like many chocolate flavored foods, it looks like this does not contain any actual chocolate: Puremade Chocolate Milano Syrup. But their Dark Chocolate Sauce does contain cocoa: Puremade Dark Chocolate Sauce


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## silverbullet07 (Feb 6, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> I’ve used Torani dark chocolate sauce but it seemed to drop out like lees and not dissolve into the wine. How did you add it?


This is just like a flavored simple syrup..blends right in. Does not need cleared.


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## Ohio Bob (Feb 6, 2022)

Not sure what you mean by not cleared. My wine is probably 55F-60F when I fortify it to ~20% alcohol and add the Torani. It then drops out even after some stirring. Should I be bringing the wine up to room temperature to help the chocolate dissolve?


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## silverbullet07 (Feb 6, 2022)

Ohio Bob said:


> Not sure what you mean by not cleared. My wine is probably 55F-60F when I fortify it to ~20% alcohol and add the Torani. It then drops out even after some stirring. Should I be bringing the wine up to room temperature to help the chocolate dissolve?


I’m talking about the syrup I use. It is just like simple syrup. It mixes in. Does not drop out. Link > Puremade Chocolate Milano Syrup
my wine is same temps as well. I fortified to 14.5%


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## Jovimaple (Feb 6, 2022)

I just racked my FWK strawberry and blackberry. For both, I have a 5 gallon and a 1 gallon. In the 1 gallon for each, I just added about 2 oz chocolate extract I made by letting cacao nibs sit in vodka for a few months. The extract looks coffee colored but being liquid instead of syrup, it mixed right in. Smells delicious!!


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 21, 2022)

So this raspberry aged in carboy for 10 months before bottling. I thought it cleared very good but I got these particles in the bottles. What is this? Flavor is great and does not effect it just wondering what it is. Is it from the coca nibs or the concentrate? Maybe this is the reason the concentrate did not go below 1.10. Don’t know


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## Jovimaple (Oct 21, 2022)

That definitely looks like solidified chocolate to me.


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 21, 2022)

Jovimaple said:


> That definitely looks like solidified chocolate to me.


It does not taste like chocolate. I’m not sure what it taste like.


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## Ohio Bob (Oct 21, 2022)

It’s probably chocolate with all the sugar leached out of it, and wine flavored.


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## Raptor99 (Oct 21, 2022)

Cocoa nibs contain a fair amount of cocoa butter. That may have separated out after some time. Were these particles at the top or the bottom of the bottle (the "top" based on the way it was stored)?


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 22, 2022)

Raptor99 said:


> Cocoa nibs contain a fair amount of cocoa butter. That may have separated out after some time. Were these particles at the top or the bottom of the bottle (the "top" based on the way it was stored)?


The bottles were stored on its side and all the particles laying on the bottom. This was the first time using cocoa nibs and the first time seeing it. I purchased toasted nibs thinking that would help but it did not. They are heavy and stay in the bottom pouring the wine out so it does not get in the glass. Just looks awful if you happen to see it.


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 22, 2022)

silverbullet07 said:


> So this raspberry aged in carboy for 10 months before bottling. I thought it cleared very good but I got these particles in the bottles. What is this? Flavor is great and does not effect it just wondering what it is. Is it from the coca nibs or the concentrate?


* if it is cocoa butter it will melt in your hand and have a soft/ greasy feel (most fats do). Fats can produce flakes as when solidifying on the surface of gravy. ,,, If the cocoa butter is solubilized in alcohol it should stay there. ,,, there may be a temperature effect since straight coaca butter melts at about 98F.
* if it is a crystallized salt it will not melt at body temperature. It will feel rough/ sandy in the mouth or hand
* there aren’t a lot of other choices, ,,, does not look microbial/ an infection.


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 22, 2022)

Rice_Guy said:


> * if it is cocoa butter it will melt in your hand and have a soft/ greasy feel (most fats do). Fats can produce flakes as when solidifying on the surface of gravy. ,,, If the cocoa butter is solubilized in alcohol it should stay there. ,,, there may be a temperature effect since straight coaca butter melts at about 98F.
> * if it is a crystallized salt it will not melt at body temperature. It will feel rough/ sandy in the mouth or hand
> * there aren’t a lot of other choices, ,,, does not look microbial/ an infection.



Maybe salt then. It does not melt in hand. Feels gritty and just brakes up and gritty.


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## winemaker81 (Oct 22, 2022)

silverbullet07 said:


> Maybe salt then. It does not melt in hand. Feels gritty and just brakes up and gritty.


tartrate crystals?


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## silverbullet07 (Oct 22, 2022)

winemaker81 said:


> tartrate crystals?


Maybe? Will they form setting on the shelf in basement between 62-70F


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## winemaker81 (Oct 22, 2022)

silverbullet07 said:


> Maybe? Will they form setting on the shelf in basement between 62-70F


Yes, if the tartrate level is high enough. I've had a 2 yo wine start dropping crystals


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## Rice_Guy (Oct 22, 2022)

This thread seemed to have started as a raspberry wine which was deacidified with calcium. That would say that the dominant acid is citric and if something precipitated it might be calcium citrate.
Tartaric acid wouldn’t make up a major fraction of the fruit. If tartaric did make up a major fraction I might come out as potassium tartrate.


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