# French Bordeaux Style



## jgmann67 (Apr 1, 2021)

Going through the WE lineup to cross reference them to the old kits offerings, I keep coming back to this one - the French Bordeaux Style. I don’t recall this one being available under the old formulation. So, I’m wondering: Did I miss something? Who has done it? What are your thoughts?


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## wineh (Apr 1, 2021)

You'll notice it says it's from the Languedoc region, which is a completely different wine grape growing region from Bordeaux. Blends in the Languedoc are called Vins de Pays. Since winexpert either doesn't know this or is using the misnomer to get away with using the term Bordeaux, I'm on a personal boycott of that one.


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## ErikM (Apr 2, 2021)

wineh said:


> You'll notice it says it's from the Languedoc region, which is a completely different wine grape growing region from Bordeaux. Blends in the Languedoc are called Vins de Pays. Since winexpert either doesn't know this or is using the misnomer to get away with using the term Bordeaux, I'm on a personal boycott of that one.



That is why they call it Bordeaux STYLE.


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## tttaff (Apr 2, 2021)

I started this one last year, it's almost 6 months old now. It comes with grape skins, so I left the juice on the skins for about 4 weeks, plus added some extra oak so it needs some time to mellow out a bit but it is tasting good so far.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 5, 2021)

@jgmann67, if you're interested in a Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot based red blend, this should be worth trying.


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## MTJoeT (Apr 6, 2021)

wineh said:


> You'll notice it says it's from the Languedoc region, which is a completely different wine grape growing region from Bordeaux. Blends in the Languedoc are called Vins de Pays. Since winexpert either doesn't know this or is using the misnomer to get away with using the term Bordeaux, I'm on a personal boycott of that one.


“Vin de pays” simply means “wine of the country”. That means all the lower quality fruit from that region was co-opped together hence why it is Bordeaux style; it contains all varieties of fruit from that region and not predominantly one strain but they will be Cab Sauv, Merlot, Cab Franc, Malbec and Petit Verdot strong as those are the main red grapes from Bordeaux.


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 20, 2021)

Has anyone ever blended Petite Sirah with Cabernet Franc?


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## Ajmassa (Apr 20, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> Has anyone ever blended Petite Sirah with Cabernet Franc?


probably many. probably a lot of commercial franc has some too i bet. since PS is a popular small percentage blender to boost a wine. I kinda view petite sirah and petite verdot as interchangeable for boosting purposes. 

i just did a franc bucket with petite sirah grapes last year. still in bulk


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## sour_grapes (Apr 20, 2021)

What AJ said. However, it won't be "Bordeaux Style" any longer!


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 20, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> probably many. probably a lot of commercial franc has some too i bet. since PS is a popular small percentage blender to boost a wine. I kinda view petite sirah and petite verdot as interchangeable for boosting purposes.
> 
> i just did a franc bucket with petite sirah grapes last year. still in bulk


More PS or more CF? Any idea?


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## Ajmassa (Apr 20, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> More PS or more CF? Any idea?


who knows? that’s a question only the winemaker can answer! 
when used as a booster it’s just a small percentage. just enough to add some umph. they usually do like 5% PS/PV or something. but only one way to know for sure— bench trials with diff proportions to find out what ya prefer. 

blending trials can be simple or overwhelming. usually I got more variables to account for then just what tastes best. like amount of wine or open carboys. Plus my tastebuds often lie to me and i’ll have different opinions from one night to the next. eventually just gotta say F it and make a decision for a main blend and then another of what’s left over. or some single varietal


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## winemaker81 (Apr 21, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> More PS or more CF? Any idea?


I agree with @Ajmassa -- it's winemaker's taste AND blending trials can be difficult to judge.

Look at the back label of red Bordeaux and other red blends. In some cases there will be as little as 3% of one varietal. The winemaker believes that addition makes the wine better. Maybe it does, but I'm not going to claim my palate is good enough to detect the difference between 3% and 5%. Or maybe the winemaker is fooling him or herself. Or blowing smoke. I have no idea either way.

Also keep in mind that these folks have hundreds, maybe thousands of 60 gallon barrels to play with. We amateurs do not have that luxury, and the amount of wine we make is a strict limit on both blending _and _taste testing.

Go with a simple trial, 5 wines:
100% PS
75% PS / 25% CF
50% PS / 50% CF
25% PS / 75% CF
100% CF

You want at least one other person to taste with you, if you can. Rank the wines 1 (favorite) to 5 (least favorite). Make the blend that is the most favorite, and use the remainder as the 2nd blend. Keep in mind that you may choose to go with no blending.

Keep in mind that there are probably going to be no losers -- all 5 will be good. Just a question of what you like he best.

If you want to get creative, do a double-blind tasting -- you randomly label the wines 1 to 5, secretly recording which is which. Then someone else randomly re-labels them A to E, recording which is which. Now no one knows which wine is which.

Taste as above, ranking the wines from 1 (favorite) to 5 (least favorite). Reveal the notes to determine which is which.


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 21, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> who knows? that’s a question only the winemaker can answer!
> when used as a booster it’s just a small percentage. just enough to add some umph. they usually do like 5% PS/PV or something. but only one way to know for sure— bench trials with diff proportions to find out what ya prefer.
> 
> blending trials can be simple or overwhelming. usually I got more variables to account for then just what tastes best. like amount of wine or open carboys. Plus my tastebuds often lie to me and i’ll have different opinions from one night to the next. eventually just gotta say F it and make a decision for a main blend and then another of what’s left over. or some single varietal


Thanks. Planning on doing that with the leftover of the blend I intend to make.


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 21, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I agree with @Ajmassa -- it's winemaker's taste AND blending trials can be difficult to judge.
> 
> Look at the back label of red Bordeaux and other red blends. In some cases there will be as little as 3% of one varietal. The winemaker believes that addition makes the wine better. Maybe it does, but I'm not going to claim my palate is good enough to detect the difference between 3% and 5%. Or maybe the winemaker is fooling him or herself. Or blowing smoke. I have no idea either way.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'll definatly do that. Thanks for the ratios, that's what I was basically looking for and is CF and PS was a good blend.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 21, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> Thank you. I'll definatly do that. Thanks for the ratios, that's what I was basically looking for and is CF and PS was a good blend.


Glad to help! I figured you needed a starting point, which is often the hardest part to figure.

Bottle at least 1 gallon of each wine as a varietal. A year later, compare your blend(s) to the varietals to see what you like. Treat everything as a learning experience and enjoy the ride.

I've done blending in the past, but for 2020 I went with a field blend -- I chose grapes in a ratio that sounded good and went with it. So far, I'm happy with my results.


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 21, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Glad to help! I figured you needed a starting point, which is often the hardest part to figure.
> 
> Bottle at least 1 gallon of each wine as a varietal. A year later, compare your blend(s) to the varietals to see what you like. Treat everything as a learning experience and enjoy the ride.
> 
> I've done blending in the past, but for 2020 I went with a field blend -- I chose grapes in a ratio that sounded good and went with it. So far, I'm happy with my results.


Unfortunatly I can't do grapes, only juice.


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## winemaker81 (Apr 21, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> Unfortunatly I can't do grapes, only juice.


This is not a problem -- you can have a lot of fun with experimentation, either way.


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 21, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> This is not a problem -- you can have a lot of fun with experimentation, either way.


Oh I do.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 21, 2021)

hey @Mario Dinis - how’s that juice bucket PS btw? I’m curious about that one. Is it from last fall? Ive noticed for the most part the color doesn’t vary a drastic amount in buckets. The cabs/zins/malbecs etc is always prettt darn good color. Even historically lighter grapes like sangio wont be drastically lighter in juice pails.

But I never did a PS or PV bucket. curious if it’s super dark & bold like those grapes would be- or since it’s a pre-balanced bucket is the stronger color less drastic? (basing this question off the fact they blend in other varietals into the juice for optimal brix & acid & color)


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## Mario Dinis (Apr 22, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> hey @Mario Dinis - how’s that juice bucket PS btw? I’m curious about that one. Is it from last fall? Ive noticed for the most part the color doesn’t vary a drastic amount in buckets. The cabs/zins/malbecs etc is always prettt darn good color. Even historically lighter grapes like sangio wont be drastically lighter in juice pails.
> 
> But I never did a PS or PV bucket. curious if it’s super dark & bold like those grapes would be- or since it’s a pre-balanced bucket is the stronger color less drastic? (basing this question off the fact they blend in other varietals into the juice for optimal brix & acid & color)


Hi AJ, that's actually Pinot Noir and it came out pretty good after that rotten egg smell scare, LOL. I followed your advice to splash rack it a few times and it worked. No more odors and tastes pretty good. As for color, it's not too dark and yes, it's from last Fall. I just ordered a bucket of Chilean Syrah to play with this Spring and going to order from them in the Fall CS/M/CF and PS to make Port and a few blends.


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## jgmann67 (May 2, 2021)

Was at the LHBS last week picking up the Sangiovese Rose for our summer wine and thought “what the hell” I need to try this for myself. I won’t be labeling it a Bordeaux (cause that’s just wrong). So Vin de Pays it is... 

We’re only a week in and it’s fermented down to just about zero already. The juice is dark and the skins bag was pretty big. It came with two yeasts, the RC212 and an EC1118. I usually only use the RC. But with my Barolo not getting down to zero, I figured I’d pitch them both.

So, pitched the RC after waiting 24 hours after dropping the skins. Two days after dropping the RC and letting it get a good head start, I pitched the EC1118. 

The kit also came with two bags of wood chips. Dropped those in the primary. There’s a single bag of oak cubes for the finish. But I might add a spiral of French medium + oak. We’ll see.

Smells good, looks good. Not seeing a downside yet.


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## Mario Dinis (May 2, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> Was at the LHBS last week picking up the Sangiovese Rose for our summer wine and thought “what the hell” I need to try this for myself. I won’t be labeling it a Bordeaux (cause that’s just wrong). So Vin de Pays it is...
> 
> We’re only a week in and it’s fermented down to just about zero already. The juice is dark and the skins bag was pretty big. It came with two yeasts, the RC212 and an EC1118. I usually only use the RC. But with my Barolo not getting down to zero, I figured I’d pitch them both.
> 
> ...


For a "Bordeux" style with CS, M and CF, can one use RC212 and D80 together or just one or the other?


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## Ajmassa (May 2, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> For a "Bordeux" style with CS, M and CF, can one use RC212 and D80 together or just one or the other?


you could, but one yeast eventually take over because... science. sounds like @jgmann67 wanted to ensure a complete ferment but also wanted to gain some complexity so tossed in the super strong 1118 after a couple days of rc212.

Or you could do split ferments. the split batch of d80 and d254 is always an option. and then blend together after. a consistent proven winner. 

no clue what actual typical bordeaux yeast methods are. i’d bet natural ferments since it’s such an established wine region.


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## Mario Dinis (May 2, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> you could, but one yeast eventually take over because... science. sounds like @jgmann67 wanted to ensure a complete ferment but also wanted to gain some complexity so tossed in the super strong 1118 after a couple days of rc212.
> 
> Or you could do split ferments. the split batch of d80 and d254 is always an option. and then blend together after. a consistent proven winner.
> 
> no clue what actual typical bordeaux yeast methods are. i’d bet natural ferments since it’s such an established wine region.


Indeed a winner. Did that with my Malbec.


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## winemaker81 (May 2, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Or you could do split ferments. the split batch of d80 and d254 is always an option. and then blend together after. a consistent proven winner.


This is my choice as well, due to 1 yeast dominating the other. 



Ajmassa said:


> no clue what actual typical bordeaux yeast methods are. i’d bet natural ferments since it’s such an established wine region.


I tried searching on it and found nothing concrete from Bordeaux. I did find a couple of references that said to use a Bordeaux isolate, and MoreWIne said they use this for Bordeaux, Rhone, and Zinfandel grapes:





__





Bordeaux Red (BDX) Dry Wine Yeast | MoreWine


A French isolate used extensively in California and Australia and maintained at UC Davis as strain UCD-725. Highly recommended for production of quality...




morewinemaking.com


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## Mario Dinis (May 2, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> This is my choice as well, due to 1 yeast dominating the other.
> 
> 
> I tried searching on it and found nothing concrete from Bordeaux. I did find a couple of references that said to use a Bordeaux isolate, and MoreWIne said they use this for Bordeaux, Rhone, and Zinfandel grapes:
> ...


Has anyone ever made a blend with Cabernet Franc and Zinfandel?


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## Ajmassa (May 2, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> Has anyone ever made a blend with Cabernet Franc and Zinfandel?


Not yet! 
Got a Zin and a Franc, both made with petite sirah grapes last fall. Will probably do a 50/50 blend and keep maybe a case of each as single varietal.


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## Mario Dinis (May 3, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Not yet!
> Got a Zin and a Franc, both made with petite sirah grapes last fall. Will probably do a 50/50 blend and keep maybe a case of each as single varietal. View attachment 74128


If i got it correct, that's a blend of Zin with PS and of CF and PS?


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## Snafflebit (May 3, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> Has anyone ever blended Petite Sirah with Cabernet Franc?



i see Petite Sarah blended with Cab Sauv and other grapes in Norhern California wineries, because a lot of PS is grown here. Even 100% PS is bottled. But PS is tannic and my preference would be lighter on the PS. It would benefit from aging.


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## Ajmassa (May 4, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> If i got it correct, that's a blend of Zin with PS and of CF and PS?


yeah. a bucket and a lug each.


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## Ajmassa (May 5, 2021)

Mario Dinis said:


> If i got it correct, that's a blend of Zin with PS and of CF and PS?


off topic- but this convo prompted me to check on these wines which i haven’t done in a while. i have had a few other larger batches going so tending to these wines was kinda put on the backburner.
Didn’t realize till now that i’ve never racked these at all. i did maintain sulphites, & confirmed mlf finished and all. but never racked at all after fermentation. Was only 1 lug of PS in each so the amount of lees wasn’t too crazy. but still. almost 7 months now lol. gotta sample tonight. keeping fingers crossed nothings ruined.


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## Mario Dinis (May 5, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> off topic- but this convo prompted me to check on these wines which i haven’t done in a while. i have had a few other larger batches going so tending to these wines was kinda put on the backburner.
> Didn’t realize till now that i’ve never racked these at all. i did maintain sulphites, & confirmed mlf finished and all. but never racked at all after fermentation. Was only 1 lug of PS in each so the amount of lees wasn’t too crazy. but still. almost 7 months now lol. gotta sample tonight. keeping fingers crossed nothings ruined.


Hope not.


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## winemaker81 (May 6, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> Didn’t realize till now that i’ve never racked these at all.


Good luck! I've left wine on the gross lees too long and had both results, good and bad. The bad was off flavors. Cross your fingers and start racking!


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## Ajmassa (May 6, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Good luck! I've left wine on the gross lees too long and had both results, good and bad. The bad was off flavors. Cross your fingers and start racking!


 i did rack it after primary fermentation to be clear. fermented dry in open fermentor and once dry it was racked and pressed. So technically 1 rack i guess.


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## Tigre Cieca di Bocco (May 6, 2021)

The Languedoc region produces the most volume of wine out of any region in France. Their primary focus for centuries has been to make table wine that everybody can drink and enjoy. They do not focus on making the top expensive aging quality of Bordeaux region.


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## Mcjeff (Jun 25, 2021)

jgmann67 said:


> Was at the LHBS last week picking up the Sangiovese Rose for our summer wine and thought “what the hell” I need to try this for myself. I won’t be labeling it a Bordeaux (cause that’s just wrong). So Vin de Pays it is...
> 
> We’re only a week in and it’s fermented down to just about zero already. The juice is dark and the skins bag was pretty big. It came with two yeasts, the RC212 and an EC1118. I usually only use the RC. But with my Barolo not getting down to zero, I figured I’d pitch them both.
> 
> ...


I started this in August of 2020. I only used the RC212 yeast (it had both 212 and the EC118) At .996 I locked down my lid and left it for 2 weeks, (sloshing it around while closed), otherwise I followed the directions. I needed the carboy so earlier this year I bottled it, it tasted pretty good at that point. I was curious how it’s moving along, so I just opened a bottle to taste and it was quite good. Farther along at this point than most of my kit reds and makes me feel good about the new style kits. I will probably make this one again.


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## Bmd2k1 (Jul 12, 2021)

What's everyone's Fav Bordeaux kit?


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## jgmann67 (Jul 19, 2021)

Got a taste of this Bordeaux blend yesterday (on the heals of tasting 5 other kits). It's got a nice complexity. Adding the spiral of oak was definitely a good idea. Wish I had some extra scratch. I'd buy one of the FW Bordeaux styled wine kits and compare them in a year or two.


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## Bmd2k1 (Dec 15, 2021)

Looking for some feedback on the FW Bordeaux


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## Sailor323 (Dec 16, 2021)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Looking for some feedback on the FW Bordeaux


Based on the comments in the "end of year tasting" I will definitely order the FW Bordeaux kit.


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## Bmd2k1 (Dec 17, 2021)

anyone have a "finished" FW Bordeaux yet? Might still be a bit early...based on bulk and bottle agings.


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