# Wine Diamonds in a red wine?



## ceeaton (Feb 16, 2016)

_Merlot - pH 3.52 TA 6.0g/L SG 0.992 @ 72*F - pitched MLB - added 2 oz medium french oak chips
_
These are my Merlot blend numbers from last spring (yeast originally pitched 5-10-15), a Chilean Merlot juice bucket with a lug each of Merlot, Cab Sauv and Malbec. Haven't taken a pH or TA number lately, but 1/2 the batch was bottled quite some time ago. 

I just picked up my first 750ml bottle from the "wine sanctuary" (so much for safe wine @Johnd) and poured it into a cheap decanter from the early 80's. To my surprise there was quite the harvest of diamonds on the side of the bottle that had been laying closest to the ground. My basement is at 58*F and has been for about a month or so. Why am I seeing these diamonds with those numbers (which don't seem really high TA wise) and not a real low temperature?

Oh, the taste of this wine is not harsh or acidic (more than any other red), it is actually quite pleasant and enjoyable (hence the plucking of a bottle from it's safe sanctuary).

Please educate me (no rulers to the knuckles allowed)...


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## Johnd (Feb 16, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> _Merlot - pH 3.52 TA 6.0g/L SG 0.992 @ 72*F - pitched MLB - added 2 oz medium french oak chips
> _
> These are my Merlot blend numbers from last spring (yeast originally pitched 5-10-15), a Chilean Merlot juice bucket with a lug each of Merlot, Cab Sauv and Malbec. Haven't taken a pH or TA number lately, but 1/2 the batch was bottled quite some time ago.
> 
> ...



It's just your wine revolting against being pirated and consumed at 9 months of age!!!!

At any rate, it's not a wine fault, and doesn't affect the drink ability of your wine, don't sweat it. They form more quickly at low temperatures, which is why some do cold stabilization at near freezing temps. Storing at 58 won't stop it, just takes longer. 

If you look in your wine books or do a search, you can read all about the chemistry if you're interested, but in the mean time, stay out of the sanctuary!!!!!!


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## ceeaton (Feb 16, 2016)

Johnd said:


> It's just your wine revolting against being pirated and consumed at 9 months of age!!!!
> ..... but in the mean time, stay out of the sanctuary!!!!!!



I will confess, you warned me! I am a wine making youngin' and need to learn my lessons the hard way...but it tasted so good!

Just have to remember how good it will taste if I can keep my mitts off of it for another year. Either that or make more red wine. 

I think I'll mortgage the house and make more red wine, yea that's what I'll do...

Edit: my wife just told me she got a 98 on her math test (miracles do happen!) so she'll probably be able to become a nurse, so I can make more wine and not mortgage the house. Also, those wine bottles have the first quality corks in them, so they will only last two years, so I had better keep drinking that wine before it goes bad.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 16, 2016)

Having tasted this wine, I can attest to the fact that this blend is very good. Green, with a little bitter on the palate that dissipates with decanting. Otherwise, a real winner. Great nose; medium to full body; palate is layered nicely. 

I am a fan.

Now, keep your mits off-a-dat wine for at least another six months!


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## ibglowin (Feb 16, 2016)

Its dropping out because you bottled it too soon and the wine had not been cold stabilized (to any level) before hand. It may have been clear when you bottled it but now its 58 degrees in your storage area so your having stuff starting to precipitate out from the low temps compared to what the wine has seen so far to date. 

This is the biggest reason NOT to be in a hurry to bottle before 12 months at a minimum and at least one Winter.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Its dropping out because you bottled it too soon and the wine had not been cold stabilized (to any level) before hand. It may have been clear when you bottled it but now its 58 degrees in your storage area so your having stuff starting to precipitate out from the low temps compared to what the wine has seen so far to date.
> 
> This is the biggest reason NOT to be in a hurry to bottle before 12 months at a minimum and at least one Winter.



Thanks Mike. I didn't realize people cold stabilized reds, just thought it was for whites. At least I only bottled 5 gallons of it, still have 5 in a carboy in the basement, time for a little garage time! Have 8 gallons of Dornfelder to join it too, wouldn't want a carboy to get lonely.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

jgmann67 said:


> Now, keep your mits off-a-dat wine for at least another six months!



I think I just sent you another 375 ml of that in the last batch of wines. Plenty more to come, remember you will have to do a side by side tasting to see what those finishing tannins did to half the batch. At this point they will be 750's since I've polished off all the 375's as of last night, oh bother...


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## Floandgary (Feb 17, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> I will confess, you warned me! I am a wine making youngin' and need to learn my lessons the hard way...but it tasted so good!
> 
> Just have to remember how good it will taste if I can keep my mitts off of it for another year. Either that or make more red wine.
> 
> ...



Congrats to your wife! Don't know what it means having a winemaker (o) and a Nurse in the same household? You didn't happen to mention that you were making wine AND Diamonds did you!!! LOL


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## Boatboy24 (Feb 17, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Thanks Mike. I didn't realize people cold stabilized reds, just thought it was for whites. At least I only bottled 5 gallons of it, still have 5 in a carboy in the basement, time for a little garage time! Have 8 gallons of Dornfelder to join it too, wouldn't want a carboy to get lonely.



If your wine spends it's entire life from fermentation to bottle at 70 degrees, then you stick it in a fridge at 55 degrees for 3 months, you'll have some crystals fall out. You don't have to subject it to freezing cold temps, just at or a little below what you'll be storing it at (so I think). Also, be aware of what the cold stabilization might do to your pH.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

Boatboy24 said:


> If your wine spends it's entire life from fermentation to bottle at 70 degrees, then you stick it in a fridge at 55 degrees for 3 months, you'll have some crystals fall out. You don't have to subject it to freezing cold temps, just at or a little below what you'll be storing it at (so I think). Also, be aware of what the cold stabilization might do to your pH.



So if my pH rises too much, just leave them in there and don't rack off of them and move to a place the temperature is higher?

I'm assuming the pH rises because I'm removing tartaric acid, but I'm no chemist so I'm not betting any money on that one.


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## Johnd (Feb 17, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> I'm assuming the pH rises because I'm removing tartaric acid, but I'm no chemist so I'm not betting any money on that one.



You actually have to be a little careful here, there is a Ph at which cold stabilization will actually lower your Ph, ie. increase the acidity.

I'm at work away from my wine notes, and at my age, I forget stuff, but I think it's 3.4 or 3.5 that's the magic number. Don't hold me to that Ph, but the line in the sand does exist.......


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

Johnd said:


> You actually have to be a little careful here, there is a Ph at which cold stabilization will actually lower your Ph, ie. increase the acidity.
> 
> I'm at work away from my wine notes, and at my age, I forget stuff, but I think it's 3.4 or 3.5 that's the magic number. Don't hold me to that Ph, but the line in the sand does exist.......



Now you've done it, your making me do work. Actually I never tested the wines pH or TA after MLF since it tasted good. Guess I'll test it on both wines before I subject them to lower temperatures. I was hoping just to sit on my derrière and drink a few glasses of wine tonight.


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## Johnd (Feb 17, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Now you've done it, your making me do work. Actually I never tested the wines pH or TA after MLF since it tasted good. Guess I'll test it on both wines before I subject them to lower temperatures. I was hoping just to sit on my derrière and drink a few glasses of wine tonight.



The divining line is at Ph 3.6, not the ones I posted earlier. I should have looked it up before I posted. If you're interested in some text on the subject, check out: http://extension.psu.edu/food/enology/analytical-services/assessment-of-cold-stabilization


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## ibglowin (Feb 17, 2016)

You definitely need a pH meter if your going to stay in this and move on to the next step(s) like most of us do to some level. Even if you never do fresh grapes and only do juice buckets you should invest in a decent pH meter. 

Bottlom lin is the wine needs to be stabelized before it goes in the bottle so you don't have tartrate(s) falling out of the bottle like wet cement. The pH CS point is around 3.6-3.65.


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## Floandgary (Feb 17, 2016)

FROM WWW.WINEMAKERSACADAMY.COM 

If you do have the means to reduce the temperature of your wine here is a simple formula for determining what the ideal cold stabilization temperature is.
Cold Stabilization Temp (C) = -(%Alcohol /2) -1
For example, if you have a wine at 15% alcohol by volume your ideal cold stabilization temperature would be -6.5 degrees (C) or 20.3 degrees (F).

There is one rather unfortunate side effect of cold stabilization. Colder temperatures increases a wines’ ability to absorb oxygen which leads to premature aging.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> You definitely need a pH meter if your going to stay in this and move on to the next step(s) like most of us do to some level. Even if you never do fresh grapes and only do juice buckets you should invest in a decent pH meter.
> 
> Bottlom lin is the wine needs to be stabelized before it goes in the bottom so you don't have tartrate falling out of the bottle like wet cement. The pH CS point is around 3.6-3.65.



Oh I have a meter already, works great. Even have my chemicals for the TA test in the fridge so they don't go bad as quickly.

Wet cement is a very appropriate description.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

Floandgary said:


> There is one rather unfortunate side effect of cold stabilization. Colder temperatures increases a wines’ ability to absorb oxygen which leads to premature aging.



But I'll be oaky dokey if I'm topped up within an inch or so of the bung, right? Thanks for the formula.

Yea, it also holds on to it's CO2 better and makes it nearly impossible to degas!

So I'm seeing a pattern here. Ferment when it's warm. Age when it's cool. Degas when it warms up again, then bottle. Repeat cycle continuously until I die and someone else drinks all my hard work.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

Johnd said:


> The divining line is at Ph 3.6, not the ones I posted earlier. I should have looked it up before I posted. If you're interested in some text on the subject, check out: http://extension.psu.edu/food/enology/analytical-services/assessment-of-cold-stabilization



John, thanks that is a nice paper on it, makes a lot of sense. But I still don't want to be a chemist, maybe a mad scientist, but not a chemist.


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## ceeaton (Feb 17, 2016)

Okay, tested my wines. Merlot blend pH 3.66 TA 5.9 g/L. Dornfelder pH 3.78 TA 5.8 g/L. 

So what kind of a pH jump are we talking here if I cold stabilize these? 3.78 is getting up there.


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## Johnd (Feb 17, 2016)

ceeaton said:


> Okay, tested my wines. Merlot blend pH 3.66 TA 5.9 g/L. Dornfelder pH 3.78 TA 5.8 g/L.
> 
> So what kind of a pH jump are we talking here if I cold stabilize these? 3.78 is getting up there.



If there's a way to determine that ahead of time, it is beyond my knowledge.


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## ibglowin (Feb 17, 2016)

You only need to stabilize down to the lowest point your wine would see in your "cellar" each Winter. You don't have to take it down to 30 unless your trying to maximize the tartrate formation. I have wines from fresh grapes that are 5 years old now that have little to no crystals as I waited 2 Winters before bottling and the temps are stable in the Winter in my cellar.



ceeaton said:


> Okay, tested my wines. Merlot blend pH 3.66 TA 5.9 g/L. Dornfelder pH 3.78 TA 5.8 g/L.
> 
> So what kind of a pH jump are we talking here if I cold stabilize these? 3.78 is getting up there.


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## heatherd (Feb 17, 2016)

I get wine diamonds in red wines but just decant and don't worry about them.


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## ibglowin (Feb 18, 2016)

It all depends on how much Tartrate drops out so no way to calculate it really. A 0.1 rise in pH in not unheard of.



Johnd said:


> If there's a way to determine that ahead of time, it is beyond my knowledge.


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## Floandgary (Feb 18, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> It all depends on how much Tartrate drops out so no way to calculate it really. A 0.1 rise in pH in not unheard of.



All the info I read seems to say that "IF there is excess or a large amount of Tartrares, this process will get it out". Nothing urgent about it. Just one of those little alleyways along the road to a lip-smackin' glassful


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## ibglowin (Feb 18, 2016)

Since I always seem to be dragging my feet to bottle even at 2 years in carboys and small barrels I have to say that time is indeed a winemakers friend. 

If it ain't stable by two years, its NEVER going to be stable!


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## jgmann67 (Feb 18, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> If it ain't stable by two years, its NEVER going to be stable!



Reminds me of why my first wife and I split...


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## ibglowin (Feb 18, 2016)




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## ceeaton (Feb 18, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> You only need to stabilize down to the lowest point your wine would see in your "cellar" each Winter. You don't have to take it down to 30 unless your trying to maximize the tartrate formation. I have wines from fresh grapes that are 5 years old now that have little to no crystals as I waited 2 Winters before bottling and the temps are stable in the Winter in my cellar.



So in reality, both wines are should be okay at this point. They have been in carboys in the basement this whole winter at the same temperature as the bottles that showed the diamonds (low hit 56*F for a few weeks). They are approaching a three month racking, so maybe I should just go ahead a little early and see what diamonds I have in both batches. If I see a decent amount in the bottom/sides of the carboys I will skip putting them out in the garage assuming I have dropped enough of them to stabilize the wine. Then when it warms up enough I can see if they need degassing before bottling.

Thanks for your help.


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## ibglowin (Feb 18, 2016)

Again patience Grasshopper.

Winter is not over is it? If the temps drop lower more can precipitate. Why not just wait till you have reached the coldest point for sure and then rack.


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## ceeaton (Feb 18, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> Again patience Grasshopper.
> 
> Winter is not over is it? If the temps drop lower more can precipitate. Why not just wait till you have reached the coldest point for sure and then rack.



Question, once they have dropped will they go back into solution as the temperature rises, or do they need some sort of catalyst, like stirring?

If the answer is they will not be reabsorbed back into the wine, I'll rack now because I know I will rack again before bottling. If the answer is that they will go back into solution, the carboys will head to the garage for a few weeks (after Saturday morning, supposed to go down in the low teens).


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## ibglowin (Feb 18, 2016)

If you heat anything with crystals (enough) you can get them to go back in solution. That is why you should wait till you hit the low point then rack. I rack 2-3 times the first year then only once just before bottling in year two.

If your in a hurry to bottle then I would take advantage of Mother nature.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 18, 2016)

It's gonna get cold and snow next week, Craig.


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## ceeaton (Feb 18, 2016)

ibglowin said:


> If you heat anything with crystals (enough) you can get them to go back in solution. That is why you should wait till you hit the low point then rack. I rack 2-3 times the first year then only once just before bottling in year two.
> 
> If your in a hurry to bottle then I would take advantage of Mother nature.



It is on schedule to be racked at the end of the month for it's third racking since MLF completed. I may need the carboy in the middle of this May, so I'm not planning on aging for a second winter. Now the one I make in May may very well make it two Mays before I bottle, since it may be mostly Cab Sauv, maybe.



jgmann67 said:


> It's gonna get cold and snow next week, Craig.



Vicious rumors! Actually only 1-3" expected. I'm more worried about the next two nights in the teens, after that the lows will be in the 20's with the highs from the 40's to 50's for quite some time. Garage usually stays a good 8 to 10 degrees higher than outside, unless there is a stiff Northwest wind (or the kids leave the side door ajar). Mike was saying I just need to average a bit under the lowest storage temperature, which would be 55*F during a really cold winter. So the temperatures coming up will do the trick.

I should have been a sturgeon, plenty of patients at the hospitals. I can't find any patience around here.


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## jgmann67 (Feb 18, 2016)

If it helps at all, my garage stays around 45-50* during the winter.


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