# Any Experienced Port Makers?



## vernsgal

I'm looking into starting my 1st port soon. I was wanting to know if anyone here has completed (aged to drinking) a non kit port


----------



## jamesngalveston

Thought I would throw this at ya.
Most wine experts are 50/50 on aging fruit wines, not including grapes.
The reason: Grapes are very high in tannins, where as other fruits are not.
The higher the tannins, the longer it should age , according to the experts.
Also the lighter the fruit the lower the tannins, except for apples.


----------



## JohnT

I have made several batches and must day that they turned out great. 

Here is my basic approach.. 

1) Determine what you want. You almost need to set a goal of the exact finished ABV, volume, and residual sugar of your finished port. 

2) determine what your fortifier will be and it's abv (brandy is recommended). 

3) Research the Pearson's square. this is just a formula that, given your fortifier's abv and the current abv of the wine, and the desired abv of the resulting port, will tell you how many part of fortifier to how many parts of wine are needed.


The ports I make were aged only a year. Taste damn great.


----------



## vernsgal

jamesngalveston said:


> Thought I would throw this at ya.
> Most wine experts are 50/50 on aging fruit wines, not including grapes.
> The reason: Grapes are very high in tannins, where as other fruits are not.
> The higher the tannins, the longer it should age , according to the experts.
> Also the lighter the fruit the lower the tannins, except for apples.


ya I read that too. This is why I'm looking for someone who has made a port or 2.


JohnT said:


> I have made several batches and must day that they turned out great.
> 
> Here is my basic approach..
> 
> 1) Determine what you want. You almost need to set a goal of the exact finished ABV, volume, and residual sugar of your finished port.
> 
> 2) determine what your fortifier will be and it's abv (brandy is recommended).
> 
> 3) Research the Pearson's square. this is just a formula that, given your fortifier's abv and the current abv of the wine, and the desired abv of the resulting port, will tell you how many part of fortifier to how many parts of wine are needed.
> 
> 
> The ports I make were aged only a year. Taste damn great.


Yay! I was hoping to find a member or 2 that has been successful with a port.
Did you make yours from fruit?


----------



## jamesngalveston

my oldest that i have made is 8 mos now.
the oldest that i have in my posession 60 years.


----------



## ibglowin

I have 6 gallons of Petit Syrah from fresh grapes (2012) that I am about ready to fortify. This stuff is black as night. Finished ABV was ~16%. Going to bump it up to 19.2% with Brandy, then backsweeten with a can of Alexander's Zinfandel Concentrate. NO SORBATE as this wine was MLF'd. I will let it meld a bit and then see where the oak levels are at. May bump it up a notch. The wine has already spent 6 mo in a Vadai and another 6 mo in glass Carboy.


----------



## shoebiedoo

I like (and did) Mike's idea of back sweetening with Alexander's Zinfandel Concentrate. Although I just used Grape Concertrate it turned out great. 
I used a 6 gallon bucket of Brunello juice. Fermented and cleared it. Fortified it with everclear (brandy works too) and back sweetened. I did oak it with Hungarian Oak.

It's 2011 vintage and is really good. but again, use the Pearson square as mentioned earlier. It's important to add the right amount of alcohol.


----------



## jamesngalveston

I am dang sure not as experienced as ibglowin are shoe...but i have to ask you guys.....a port is not to go dry and then backsweeten are flavor.
the whole idea of a port is to retain the sugar level and flavor level so as not to need the added sugar are flavor...
brandy, not everclear is suppose to be added at the halfway point of fermentation.
do not mean to offend, but what you made was a wine with added alcohol. sorry...i mean no offense.
please correct me with more info if i am wrong...
thanks.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

I have been making port style wine for approx 10 years or so, but I am no expert on it. 
It has always been a concern how to get the alcohol up there without dilution.
My ports are made from ever clear (195 proof ) and they are added during fermentation and it stops the fermentation because of the high alcohol content , which leaves you with a heavy bodied port and typically little sweet to off set the ABV. I will typically add the alcohol once there is approx 4% residual sugar left - but that is to the eyes of the winemakers taste. 

I use everclear, typically I would add distillers charcoal with the everclear for a week prior to using it. That would usually take out most of the odors that come from it (fussils oils ) Back in the day (from what I read) Port was fortified with non cut brandy, which means distilled wine and not diluted with water,so the abv was similar to everclear

I also will add oak sticks in the everclear for approx 2 weeks - if not longer prior to adding to my port - it adds a little extra flavoring - similar to brandy

I hope this helps ?????


----------



## jamesngalveston

steve, i like to get to about 6 percent sugar, and 9 in my heavy body blackberry, but i ask this.
do you backsweeten
are add flavor after you have add your everclear.


----------



## jamesngalveston

i was actually waiting for you to chime in....how you been, and are you snowed in.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

jamesngalveston said:


> i was actually waiting for you to chime in....how you been, and are you snowed in.



You know I like my port !!
We have about 4-5'' of snow and more coming this weekend !

My Uncle passed away on Sunday - So we have been dealing with that - Just got back from the funeral a couple of hours ago. I still feel numb - like it is all a dream or something like that - does that make sense ?


----------



## vacuumpumpman

jamesngalveston said:


> steve, i like to get to about 6 percent sugar, and 9 in my heavy body blackberry, but i ask this.
> do you backsweeten
> are add flavor after you have add your everclear.



Like I mentioned above ^ I do not back sweeten, everything is natural. I add the alcohol when I choose how much residual sugar I desire and stop the fermentation by adding the everclear to kill the yeast.

Warning !!
Sometimes I had to wake up every 2 hours to get that right window of opportunity -


----------



## jamesngalveston

hey buddy, sorry about your uncle, I saw you were getting some lake effect.
I know what you mean by , the natural taste, that what it is suppose to be.
And I think besides me, you like ports as much...
Stay Warm.
Hey , btw ...made an offer in milwaukee on a house....we may be neigbors by 80 miles..lol


----------



## vernsgal

vacuumpumpman said:


> I have been making port style wine for approx 10 years or so, but I am no expert on it.
> It has always been a concern how to get the alcohol up there without dilution.
> My ports are made from ever clear (195 proof ) and they are added during fermentation and it stops the fermentation because of the high alcohol content , which leaves you with a heavy bodied port and typically little sweet to off set the ABV. I will typically add the alcohol once there is approx 4% residual sugar left - but that is to the eyes of the winemakers taste.
> 
> I use everclear, typically I would add distillers charcoal with the everclear for a week prior to using it. That would usually take out most of the odors that come from it (fussils oils ) Back in the day (from what I read) Port was fortified with non cut brandy, which means distilled wine and not diluted with water,so the abv was similar to everclear
> 
> I also will add oak sticks in the everclear for approx 2 weeks - if not longer prior to adding to my port - it adds a little extra flavoring - similar to brandy
> 
> I hope this helps ?????


Steve my condolences on your loss.

Thanks again for your help.As I mentioned to you I do have a slew of questions.And I'm sure others will have some too.

1/- I have read you can't really make a port from fruit. A true port is from grapes. I'm not quibbling but do you find this true?


----------



## vacuumpumpman

Kim 
That is probably true according to tradition -
I have made a blueberry port that was fantastic !!

I always think a port has to be a heavy bodied wine of sort - otherwise I believe it would be more of a desert wine ?


----------



## vacuumpumpman

jamesngalveston said:


> hey buddy, sorry about your uncle, I saw you were getting some lake effect.
> I know what you mean by , the natural taste, that what it is suppose to be.
> And I think besides me, you like ports as much...
> Stay Warm.
> Hey , btw ...made an offer in milwaukee on a house....we may be neigbors by 80 miles..lol



Well that is definitely alot closer than Texas !!!


----------



## vernsgal

haha you did mention to me you made a mean blueberry. 

2/ when making your starter wine do you pay attention to the PH or TA? Does it change with the addition of the alcohol?


----------



## jamesngalveston

vernsgal.....there is lots of ancient stories about port.
some say the first port was from dates, others think figs, 
modern day they think grapes....
you have to look....the dry arid climates were perfect for dates, and figs, but not for grapes, 
grape vinyards, cultures started with rome and greece.
do some research...you will see, that wine was made from anything 
that was wild....not cultivated.
untile the wine famine in rome.


----------



## jamesngalveston

here is an article for you.
http://winemakermag.com/313-fruit-port

remember that grape wine was for the rich , while fruit wine was for the poor and slaves.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

vernsgal said:


> haha you did mention to me you made a mean blueberry.
> 
> 2/ when making your starter wine do you pay attention to the PH or TA? Does it change with the addition of the alcohol?



KIm 
Blueberry is a very heavy bodied wine - I only have a couple of bottles left.

I have not made port from a lighter wine per say - not saying it would not work

*Very nice article James !!*


----------



## ibglowin

Just as there is more than one road to get you from Galveston to Houston, there is more than one road to a "Port Style Wine". You are correct in that the purest method to a port is to arrest fermentation at the desired level of brix with fortification high enough that no yeast could tolerate the alcohol level. 

But to do it right you need a high ABV Grappa. To get a high ABV Grappa you need a still. I don't have a still.

That said if I were to arrest fermentation at 8-9% ABV I have just "shot myself" in the foot as they say because now I have to fortify from 8-9% up to 19% where as if I let it go to dry I end up with a much higher ABV wine that needs much less fortification. 

By adding a high quality Zinfandel Concentrate I am adding not only the sugar needed but some nice flavor in the process. I am not a believer in the use of grain spirits in my port style wines. 

I believe that, like any solvent, like dissolves better in like. In this instance grape spirits (Brandy) dissolves better in grape wine than grain spirits. 

I fully realize there are people that feel that grain spirits are just fine and dandy. And that you can't taste the difference. I am just not one of them. 

So I am going from Galveston to Houston and I am not taking I-45. I will be taking Hwy 6 and cutting over at Hwy 288 and running it all the way into town. 

I end up in "Port Houston" with a really nice dark rich, flavor packed "port styled wine" that has an ABV of 19%. I just took a different road to get there. Thats all.



jamesngalveston said:


> I am dang sure not as experienced as ibglowin are shoe...but i have to ask you guys.....a port is not to go dry and then backsweeten are flavor.
> the whole idea of a port is to retain the sugar level and flavor level so as not to need the added sugar are flavor...
> brandy, not everclear is suppose to be added at the halfway point of fermentation.
> do not mean to offend, but what you made was a wine with added alcohol. sorry...i mean no offense.
> please correct me with more info if i am wrong...
> thanks.


----------



## spaniel

jamesngalveston said:


> I am dang sure not as experienced as ibglowin are shoe...but i have to ask you guys.....a port is not to go dry and then backsweeten are flavor.
> the whole idea of a port is to retain the sugar level and flavor level so as not to need the added sugar are flavor...
> brandy, not everclear is suppose to be added at the halfway point of fermentation.
> do not mean to offend, but what you made was a wine with added alcohol. sorry...i mean no offense.
> please correct me with more info if i am wrong...
> thanks.



While this may be technically true, your prescribed technique is, for all reasonable purposes, illegal for the home wine (port) maker. You need high ABV fortifier and such high ABV brandy is not routinely available to us non-commercial people. Consumer-level brandy is too weak and would be required in too high of volume to retain the intended character/body of the port. Hence, we have to use higher-octane grain alcohol.

I've done a single batch of black raspberry port. Overall, I was happy with the outcome. I used Everclear to fortify and oaked carefully to taste. If I were to do it again, all I'd change is explore ways to give it a bit more body. I did add tannin but perhaps not enough.


----------



## jamesngalveston

vernsgal: go here and in the upper left hand side the whole story of what port is, how its made, the history, is there.

notice there is no mention of grappa, are everclear....but there is no mention of a fruit port either...

http://taylor.pt/en/what-is-port-wine/introduction/


----------



## vernsgal

spaniel said:


> While this may be technically true, your prescribed technique is, for all reasonable purposes, illegal for the home wine (port) maker. You need high ABV fortifier and such high ABV brandy is not routinely available to us non-commercial people. Consumer-level brandy is too weak and would be required in too high of volume to retain the intended character/body of the port. Hence, we have to use higher-octane grain alcohol.
> 
> I've done a single batch of black raspberry port. Overall, I was happy with the outcome. I used Everclear to fortify and oaked carefully to taste. If I were to do it again, all I'd change is explore ways to give it a bit more body. I did add tannin but perhaps not enough.


Spaniel you hit the nail on the head.
I think what people get hung up on is the word “brandy”. I know from all the reading I have done, true port is made with non commercial brandy. I found this article , sorry never copied where I got it, I’m bad for just copying and pasting notes, it said :

“First off, Port is always fortified with brandy. But in this case, brandy just means distilled alcohol from grapes.... nothing like the brandy you would buy for personal consumption. The distillate used in port production is more similar to a grain-neutral spirit.”

It’s also why magazines like winemaker magazine refer to homemade ports as “port style wines”. It also says ”Making port-style wine at home is simple if you plan your vinification process ( the process of turning grapes into wine). It does not necessarily require the intricate blending or the use of oak barrels as in true port.” 

Well we don’t all have the proper barrels either and since it’s illegal to operate a still ,none of us can make a true port and that we have to make do with what we have. That’s why both everclear or brandy or vodka works in making a “home port wine”

Some wise person here said to me “There are always different ways to do the same thing.” And I think most WMT members will agree, it’s all about what you like.

That’s why I made this thread to find out who has completed their Ports and how you have done them. I’m just interested in the outcome and how you got there. So no worries about whether it’s the right way or the wrong. How’s the taste


----------



## jamesngalveston

ibglowin says it best....doesnt matter how you get there, your there.

I have not mad a port, port style, port type, fortified wine, wine with alcohol, that tasted bad.....

the blackberry (port) is excellent.


----------



## the_rayway

Is anyone willing to share their successful recipes? I'm always looking for good, step-by-step recipes...


----------



## seth8530

For some reason their is nothing like a port thread on this forum to cause ruckus lol. Always seems to happen without fail ha!

I have made a "Port Style" Black Currant port which is currently around 18 months old. It is quite good IMHO but looking back with a new perspective I feel like we should avoid calling anything not made from grapes a Port. Mainly since port is made from grapes ( which IMHO is a much more important distinction than whether or not you fortify prior or before going dry and whether or not you use grappa or brandy). 

That being said, although I believe that my Black Currant "port" turned out perfectly fine using everclear, if I was making a grape based port I would do everything in my capability to source myself some commercial grappa to use in it. I say this because their is a difference in flavour even between neutral spirits.. Ie compare high proof vodka against high proof corn whiskie, both spirits are similar but I can assure you the taste is quite different.

That being said, I do not hate on fortified fruit wines made in the port style ( like my black currant which for some reason I decided to call a port) but looking back, I think it is unfair to Port to call a fruit wine Port. I believe perfectly fine tasting Ports and "Port Styled wines" can be made with everclear or grappa, but I believe that Grappa should be used whenever possible when using grapes as the base.

Anyways my .02$


----------



## Runningwolf

ibglowin said:


> Just as there is more than one road to get you from Galveston to Houston, there is more than one road to a "Port Style Wine". You are correct in that the purest method to a port is to arrest fermentation at the desired level of brix with fortification high enough that no yeast could tolerate the alcohol level.
> 
> But to do it right you need a high ABV Grappa. To get a high ABV Grappa you need a still. I don't have a still.
> 
> That said if I were to arrest fermentation at 8-9% ABV I have just "shot myself" in the foot as they say because now I have to fortify from 8-9% up to 19% where as if I let it go to dry I end up with a much higher ABV wine that needs much less fortification.
> 
> By adding a high quality Zinfandel Concentrate I am adding not only the sugar needed but some nice flavor in the process. I am not a believer in the use of grain spirits in my port style wines.
> 
> I believe that, like any solvent, like dissolves better in like. In this instance grape spirits (Brandy) dissolves better in grape wine than grain spirits.
> 
> I fully realize there are people that feel that grain spirits are just fine and dandy. And that you can't taste the difference. I am just not one of them.
> 
> I end up in "Port Houston" with a really nice dark rich, flavor packed "port styled wine" that has an ABV of 19%. I just took a different road to get there. Thats all.



Mike is spot on with what he posted in my opinion. When I make a port I ferment dry so less spirits is used. Aging in a neutral barrel would be my preference but I don't have that option at home. 

Now some food (spirits) for thought. If one was to use a rain alcohol and ran it through an activated carbon filter would that take some of the harshness away? If you're buying a cheap vodka and run it through a Brita filter once or twice it does help. With that said though, Ever clear is too high in alcohol and would probably melt the plastic so it would have to be cut with distilled water to about 45% abv. This would defeat the idea using less spirits at a high abv.


----------



## seth8530

Well, that would all depend on the type of plastic used. Their are quite a few plastics out their which are literately impervious to alcohol.


----------



## shoebiedoo

OK, I feel like stirring the pot a little ::
I always get a little frustrated when people get so "wrapped around the axle" with nomenclature. I don't think there would ever be a question what some who refers to his/her fortified fruit wine as Port, is trying to say. Just like correcting someone who asks for a "Kleenex" even though the actual brand of facial tissue may be different. We all make wine because we like being able to make our wines "our own". we do this by thinking outside the box. At the end of the day, if someone say's they made a port wine, I think it's pretty clear they fortified some sort of wine with a higher alcohol. That being said.

My port wine was made from a bucket of Brunello juice that stopped fermentation at 1.01 sg. I decided to add the strongest proof everclear I could get (195) because I didn't want to dilute the actual flavor of the wine too much by adding a weaker brandy. If I were to make a port intentionally i would never try to interrupt and fermentation simply because that's more of a crap shoot. I believe you're always best fermenting to dry. Mostly because you never know what life has in store for you. you may not beable to check you fermentation progress regularly and I'm certainly not going to get up in the middle of the night to check fermentation. I prefer to ferment dry and as I mentioned earlier, back sweeten with grape concentrate instead of a simple syrup. This will help with flavor. I had a friend of mine fortify a batch of Barolo with home made Kalua and I have to admit. It was pretty darn good. He calls it a Kalua Port, whether that is technically correct is up for debate but I DO call it good  
I've never made a fruit wine so I will not comment on that. There are so many ways to make a port style wine from grape juice (red wine) I would just recommend the following basic rules. after that, have some fun with it.

1)Out of convience, I would ferment, what ever wine you choose, dry, then use the pearson square to fortify to 18 to 20%. (you can raise your SG prior to fermenting but I've never done it that way so I'll let others chime in there)
2) back sweeten with a grape concentrate like WineExperts.
3) use the Peason Square to get the final alcohol content you desire. Keep in mind, the weaker the fortifier, the more you have to ad.

hope this helps


----------



## Runningwolf

Hey Shoebie, how did your Brunello and his Barolo turn out? I'm assuming these were Italian juice pails. I'm in the process of making one right now with a blend of ten different Chilean reds. I'm thinking possibly an Amerone might also be a great one for port.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

Dan 

That is why I recommend to add the activated carbon in a 1 gallon container and the charcoal will actually absorb the fusel oils and make the ever clear taste better. 

I also made a PVC charcoal tube that is filled with activated carbon and coffee filters on the end of tue tube and this also helps as well. 

No melting of the PVC tubing 

The oak really makes a difference also by adding it straight to the ever clear 

Thanks Stevec


----------



## shoebiedoo

The brunello is 2 years old now and turned out excellent (won a Bronze medal at Indy). I did have to guess (wrong, I might ad) at what the initial SG of the Buckets was. when I brought it home it was already down to 1.04ish so when it stopped I guessed it was at 10% alcohol but I think it was actually at 12, so the prot is fortified to 22%  I added Hungarian Oak which really made for a nice finish. The Kalua port is surprisingly good! He made his own Kalua with 151 rum so although you can defenently taste it, it's not overpowering. All in all he did a good job


----------



## shoebiedoo

Oh, and yes, these were Mosto Bello Buckets!


----------



## Runningwolf

Thanks for the update Shobie they sound awesome.

Steve I saw that set up on you tube and like it. I have the same basic one but out of SS. Now to find the carbon. Locally it is about $10 for about a pound. I am figuring I need 1.5 pounds. I can buy a 28 pound bag of it for $70 plus shipping.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

Dan 

I also found out that you can clean and reuse the charcoal also. I believe you have to boil it so all the oils are pulled out of the charcoal and then on a drying pan in the oven to heat up . 

Thanks Steve


----------



## JohnT

vacuumpumpman said:


> Like I mentioned above ^ I do not back sweeten, everything is natural. I add the alcohol when I choose how much residual sugar I desire and stop the fermentation by adding the everclear to kill the yeast.
> 
> Warning !!
> Sometimes I had to wake up every 2 hours to get that right window of opportunity -


 

vpm. 

I take much the same approach. I wait until my wine has 10% residual before adding my fortifier. 

Have you ever tried using brandy in your port? I find that, although the wine is diluted, the brandy brings some flavor to the party (some wine characteristics as well as some oak undertones).


----------



## jamesngalveston

john t, i do pretty much as steve, sometimes i will have a 6 percent sugar sometimes 10....but i do agree, i tried everclear once, and i prefer the brandy addition, i do belive it makes a better flavor.

2014 i will only use a blackberry brandy that is 140 proof


----------



## shoebiedoo

Now that sounds good!


----------



## vacuumpumpman

No I have not tried adding brandy to my port yet - 

When I add the oak sticks to the ever clear - It turns the same color as brandy and tastes very similiar when diluted 

I have 12 gallons of port already in the secondary from this years harvest. 
Do you know how much brandy I would have to purchase to bump up the alcohol up 10-12 % 

Thanks Steve


----------



## JohnT

vacuumpumpman said:


> No I have not tried adding brandy to my port yet -
> 
> When I add the oak sticks to the ever clear - It turns the same color as brandy and tastes very similiar when diluted
> 
> I have 12 gallons of port already in the secondary from this years harvest.
> Do you know how much brandy I would have to purchase to bump up the alcohol up 10-12 %
> 
> Thanks Steve


 
Granted, brandy is expensive, But IMHO, I fell it is well worth the expense. Keep in mind that, for me, port is a once in a while thing. A 5 gal batch is enough to keep me happy for a while.


----------



## jamesngalveston

I agree, I dont drink it like wine...for me its more of a really special time.
good company, good food, relax enjoy and after noon, with a good port and cigar...etc...the vacuum save...


----------



## jensmith

Ok. Here is a stupid question from a non port drinker. Why not make your bace wine with a high abv to start with?? You will still need to fortify it, but not with nearly as much. Max out the yeast, natuarly leaving residual suger. Then backsweeten and fortify to desired levels? Do you not do it this way because you are using wine grapes and do not want to add suger? ( I make fruit and wild grape wines only so added suger is just "normel" for me.) It just seams odd to start withe a low abv ( 12%) and add so much store bought brandy or everclear when you could bump the wine to 16-18%abv easily and add less store bough stuff. 
Feel free to laugh at my igrorence!!!!


----------



## jamesngalveston

jensmith, your not ignorant at all. in fact thats a fair and very smart question.
if you start with and sg of lets say, 1.030, and use a yeast of lets say
good for about 18 percent, then the yeast will consume all the sugar and finish off at about 1.020...completely fermented and no sugar are flavor will be needed...thats the wine should be made. Just my opinion.
no need for added sugar, cause you have lots of sweetness left
and you still retain the flavor of the original fruit.
and you could bump the abv with less spirits.
all in all, very good post..
thanks.


----------



## jensmith

Wow!! I've never been called smart before  Good thing I was sitting down. 
Thanks for the info. My curiosity has been satisfide.


----------



## sour_grapes

James, I don't think your numbers quite make sense. What SG did you say to start with? Did you mean 1.130?


----------



## jamesngalveston

oops...yea...1.130


----------



## cmason1957

Here is what I did with my blackberry port style that I made this year. 65 pounds of frozen blackberries, a small amount of water and sugar to get the sg up to 1.120 (or about that) let it ferment down to 1.050, add sugar to take the sg back up to 1.100, let ferment to 1.050 add sugar back to 1.100. Let ferment to where it stopped. And I think it got almost to dry. I believe this gave me about 20% alcohol. I'll probably sweeten it some. It still tastes like a blackberry, but with a heck of a kick.


----------



## jamesngalveston

http://www.brewersfriend.com/chaptalization-calculator/


----------



## seth8530

cmason1957 said:


> Here is what I did with my blackberry port style that I made this year. 65 pounds of frozen blackberries, a small amount of water and sugar to get the sg up to 1.120 (or about that) let it ferment down to 1.050, add sugar to take the sg back up to 1.100, let ferment to 1.050 add sugar back to 1.100. Let ferment to where it stopped. And I think it got almost to dry. I believe this gave me about 20% alcohol. I'll probably sweeten it some. It still tastes like a blackberry, but with a heck of a kick.



How did you add the sugar back into the wine? Did you dissolve it in some water first or did you add it straight into the must?


----------



## dangerdave

All this talk about ports, but no one has mentioned _chaptalization._ Or did I miss it? I'm planning on starting a fruity "Dragon Port" (port style Dragon Blood recipe) and I wanted to use the chaptalization process to get the ABV as high as possible (to what the EC-1118 will tolerate).

Do any of you chaptalize your ports style wines?

Edit: oops! I missed a few of the last posts. Never mind!


----------



## jamesngalveston

drink more coffee dave....lol


----------



## dangerdave

Ok, I'm trying to take notes, but I've got TMI overload, here!

Let's start from the beginning, in case i missed something...

I want to make a Dragon Blood type port style wine. I don't want to fortify. My questions for the "porties":

1) For a five gallon batch, how much fruit should I use? How many pounds per gallon? How should I handle the fruit?
2) If I'm going to bag the fruit, what do I use as a base for the must? The bag(s) have to float in something!
3) I'm going to chaptalize along the way, step adding sugar and nutrient until the EC-1118 gives out (like cmason1957 mentioned above).

Um, maybe I should try a one gallon batch or two first, to see how this works and how it turns out. I'm a port nooblet, you know.


----------



## dangerdave

I need a dang steam juicer!


----------



## jamesngalveston

dave since a port, are port style, which ever is suppose to really be flavorable, i would use 5lbs of fruit per gallon, ]
I usually add 2 gallons water, with the fruit and pectin for a day, then add sugar to 1.110, then add water to 5.5 gallons.
the sugar is going make up alot of the volume....
then force feed the sugar......chaptalize


----------



## Johngottshall

James how much brandy would I add to a 1 gallon batch not sure how to use Pearson square trying to make concord / black cherry


----------



## dangerdave

You're thinking right along my lines, James. That sounds like a good plan! I'm going to get this going this week, I think.


----------



## Runningwolf

I used a different flavored brandy for each of the different Port Kits I made several years ago. The brandy enhanced each one. You just want to make sure they complement each other. I now prefer to make Port starting with Chilean or Italian juice pails. The kits all turned out fantastic and I would personally recommend them to anyone. I just prefer to go the pail route now as I can control the outcome better. Dave it sounds like you're stirring up another competition. LOL


----------



## sour_grapes

Johngottshall said:


> James how much brandy would I add to a 1 gallon batch not sure how to use Pearson square trying to make concord / black cherry



We need to know the ABV of your Concord/Black Cherry base wine. And verify its volume -- is that still 1 gal? Then I can do the Pearson square calc. for you if you wish.


----------



## Johngottshall

I did not make it yet. Just wanted to have enough brandy on hand and yes it will be 1 gallon after fermention is finished.


----------



## Johngottshall

sour_grapes said:


> We need to know the ABV of your Concord/Black Cherry base wine. And verify its volume -- is that still 1 gal? Then I can do the Pearson square calc. for you if you wish.



So should I ferment wine to dry then back sweeten and then fortify.


----------



## sour_grapes

Johngottshall said:


> So should I ferment wine to dry then back sweeten and then fortify.



That is what I would do, although I should be quick to point out that I am anything BUT an experienced portmaker.

There are many pages giving instructions for using a Pearson's square. Here is one.


I will assume (for this calculation) that your wine is 12% ABV, and your brandy is 40% ABV (i.e., 80 proof). Further, I will assume you want a port with 20% ABV. 

We set up the square like this:

12 ?parts wine?

- 20

40 ?parts brandy?


And subtract across the diagonals to get this:

12  20

- 20

40 8


So, you will use 8 parts of brandy to 20 parts of wine, (also known as 2 parts of brandy to 5 parts of wine). If you have 1 gal of wine, you will need (1 gal)*(8/20) = 0.4 gal. This is almost exactly 1.5 liters.


----------



## dangerdave

Runningwolf said:


> Dave it sounds like you're stirring up another competition. LOL


 
Dan, you always come up with great ideas! But, _once again_, just like the strawberry contest, and the Welch's contest, home made ports are outside my comfort zone.

I swear, some day, we are going to have a DB contest, just for ME!


----------



## Johngottshall

sour_grapes said:


> That is what I would do, although I should be quick to point out that I am anything BUT an experienced portmaker.
> 
> There are many pages giving instructions for using a Pearson's square. Here is one.
> 
> I will assume (for this calculation) that your wine is 12% ABV, and your brandy is 40% ABV (i.e., 80 proof). Further, I will assume you want a port with 20% ABV.
> 
> We set up the square like this:
> 
> 12 ?parts wine?
> 
> - 20
> 
> 40 ?parts brandy?
> 
> 
> And subtract across the diagonals to get this:
> 
> 12 20
> 
> - 20
> 
> 40 8
> 
> 
> So, you will use 8 parts of brandy to 20 parts of wine, (also known as 2 parts of brandy to 5 parts of wine). If you have 1 gal of wine, you will need (1 gal)*(8/20) = 0.4 gal. This is almost exactly 1.5 liters.



OK thanks I will start to make this later on today


----------



## shoebiedoo

Runningwolf said:


> I used a different flavored brandy for each of the different Port Kits I made several years ago. The brandy enhanced each one. You just want to make sure they complement each other. I now prefer to make Port starting with Chilean or Italian juice pails. The kits all turned out fantastic and I would personally recommend them to anyone. I just prefer to go the pail route now as I can control the outcome better. Dave it sounds like you're stirring up another competition. LOL



I'm IN!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jamesngalveston

Flavored brandies.

apple peach pear plum blackberry coffee cherry honey apricot

have not found anymore..the honey brandy is excellent.


----------



## cmason1957

seth8530 said:


> How did you add the sugar back into the wine? Did you dissolve it in some water first or did you add it straight into the must?



I pulled a small amount of the wine out and stirred it into the sugar. I did it that way to keep the volume as close to the same as practical. And of course verified where it ended up with my hydrometer.


----------



## GreginND

I have a Tawny port that I made from a second wine of 50:50 blueberry and elderberry. I sweetened it up to SG 1.130 and added raisins. This was fermented down to 1.008 over about 3 weeks giving about 12.5% alcohol. I then added ever clear to raise the alcohol to about 19%. I then added some welches grape concentrate giving an alcohol of about 17%, some flavor and some more sugar. Oak cubes were added and it was aged in a carboy and some smaller containers for about a year until I last racked it in 2004. There it has sat in the carboy until today. I think I last tasted it a couple of years ago and I've drank off the smaller containers over the years. I tasted it today and it is delicious. It has turned clear and brown just like you want in a tawny port. It has that slight port oxidized flavor but not over oxidized like a sherry. I had to pull some french oak spirals out of my MN 1200 that still have some life in them so I added those to the port for one last shot of oak. I'll let it sit for a couple more months and then I think I'll bottle it. It's now 10 years old - time for some bottle aging!


----------



## jamesngalveston

if you take wine that has went dry, add flavor,add sugar , add spirits...
it is called vermouth.


----------



## jamesngalveston

vermouth does not always have to contain spices,are aromatics, the basic vermouth is made from a white dry wine, then add aromatics, then sugar then brandy are gin, then drink.
the up and coming thing is to make your own vermouth , which many have done here, they just dont call it vermouth.


----------



## Pumpkinman

I need to buy a bottle of port, I've never...I repeat never have tasted a port, but anyone that I talk to that makes port wines talks about them as if it were such an amazing experience to drink a good port, they talk about making them like as if they were talking about raising a child, lots of love and care. I am more than intrigued at this point, plus, you really don't need to twist my arm too much to try a new recipe, technique or variety of wine.


----------



## jamesngalveston

Ports go from cheap 8 dollars up to a few thousand.
A good port to try, would be a 20 year old, about 30 to 50 bucks.
It will be well worth the cost, you will enjoy it.


----------



## the_rayway

Has anyone tried a side-by-side using the two most popular 'port' methods?

1) Chapatalization to get high ABV, then backsweeten and flavour if necessary
2) Stop fermentation with brandy at 1.055-1.045ish without any further sweetning or flavouring?

I think I see an experiment brewing...


----------



## cmason1957

jamesngalveston said:


> if you take wine that has went dry, add flavor,add sugar , add spirits...
> it is called vermouth.



Around my house it is called port style. Just like the wine kit manufacturers do. And that is the last I will say about it.


----------



## Runningwolf

Pumpkinman said:


> I need to buy a bottle of port, I've never...I repeat never have tasted a port, but anyone that I talk to that makes port wines talks about them as if it were such an amazing experience to drink a good port, they talk about making them like as if they were talking about raising a child, lots of love and care. I am more than intrigued at this point, plus, you really don't need to twist my arm too much to try a new recipe, technique or variety of wine.


Tom, you will find every port will taste different. A characteristic of most ports is a bit of oxidation.


----------



## ibglowin

I bought a $25 bottle of Port from Costco last year to compare with the LaBodega Port I made several years ago. It was weak/watery and flavorless in comparison. I think it was a 10 year old Ruby Port. The LaBodega Port (Mosti Mondial) is a fantastic Port Kit for the money. I made a double batch (6G) and it has lasted 2 years and I still have about 20 bottles left (375ml).


----------



## jamesngalveston

sounds interesting, i have only made one kit wine, maybe it will try this one..


----------



## ibglowin

I have tried several bottles of Port Styled wine from other kits and that one (LaBodega) is a winner for sure. Not cheap but worth the $$$ IMHO.


----------



## seth8530

cmason1957 said:


> I pulled a small amount of the wine out and stirred it into the sugar. I did it that way to keep the volume as close to the same as practical. And of course verified where it ended up with my hydrometer.



Right, that is most likely the best easy way to do it since you can skip out on doing the volume corrections for the ABV equation if you do it that way. However, it is quite difficult to add sugar to must and then get an accurate sugar reading since it takes time for all the sugars to incorporate in.. Which can make measuring the actual ABV of a chpitalized wine quite difficult since as you wait for the sugar to evenly distribute in the wine so that you can get an accurate SG reading the yeast is chomping away at your sugar addition.

BTW not ranting on your wine making at all just the methods which are available to home wine makers.

Honestly though, I have an idea. Perhaps the best way to judge what the ABV of chapitilized wine would be to keep track of the mass of all sugars added to the wine and then convert that into a calculated starting gravity and then at the end of the processes you could take your final gravity with a hydrometer and use that as the FG..

Ie using your favorite ABV equation come up with a calculated SG based on the initial sugar content of the wine and the sum of all the sugar additions and the FG based on a hydrometer reading. And then from that come up with the ABV instead of attempting to measure how much each sugar addition raises the SG during fermentation.


----------



## cmason1957

No offense taken Seth. I've got fairly thick skin. I may try that next time I make a port. Actually, I will check my notes, more than likely I wrote down how much sugar I added. Might be interesting to calculate ABV using those numbers.

I hadn't thought of doing it that way.


----------



## seth8530

Yeah, I think it would be interesting to analyze it from that method. If you want, I would be more than willing to help look over your data.


----------



## jamesngalveston

http://www.brewersfriend.com/chaptalization-calculator/


----------



## BigMac

Hello All
I have been making port from grapes for a number of years.
I have about 30 gal in carboys and am working out some blends.
My comment on chaptalization is that the yeast needs to survive at the higher alcohol levels. My experience with those yeasts is that the flavor profile goes way down with these high alcohol yeasts. 
I use chaptalization to create a wine which is used for “other purposes”.

My goal in making port is to create something based on the type of grape used. 
Therefore adding grape concentrate changes the naturel flavor of the port.
Like Steve I closely monitor the SG and when it gets btw 1.o45 & 1.04 I add 190 proof spirits. Sometimes it is 3am in the morning on a workday!! But hey, its port, it’s worth it!!
This filter does a great job in taking everclear and getting rid of all the off flavors.
http://stillspirits.com/collections/filtering/products/ezfilter-system
Cheers


----------



## vernsgal

Wow 30 Gal. of port?? 

I have to say ,since mentioning this on another thread, and no one really knowing who all was making port, this has been incredible finding all of you. 

Experience is truly what helps us all find our ways.

Seth: I'm sure if I delve into this you'll help me with you incredible math skills? lol


----------



## Runningwolf

Alright Kim if you want the honest truth, I just bottled over 120 gallons of it three weeks ago and it just went out on the shelves for about $40 I think the price is for 500ml


----------



## jamesngalveston

runningwolf...are they young are aged..that is a lot of port. just to smell that in a vat would be heaven.


----------



## the_rayway

Wow Dan & BigMac, I have port envy...

Dan, were they all red grape ports? Kits? Details please!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

I had an amarone from juice bucket that would not finish, so I decided to make a port out of it. Steve (VacuumPump) shared his method of making brandy in order to fortify. I can say it works like a charm. I took 1 cup of Activated distillers charcoal and added to a 1 gallon glass jug.

I then poured 3 bottles of 151 everclear and let it sit for 2 weeks, shaking it ever two days. I then strained the everclear into a 1 gallon glass jug and added 1 and half cups of MFT oak Chips. Left it for another 2 weeks. O my Gosh, I took a snort of it and wow Carmel and Vanilla all day rich and velvet. I then racked the amarone backsweeten it to 1.040 added Hung M T, the spirit and a little s02...done.

Thanks Steve


----------



## ibglowin

Just remember, I believe you when you say that it taste really good but the term "Brandy" usually refers to a (neutral) grape spirit, you filtered and flavored Everclear, a (neutral) grain spirit.



ShawnDTurner said:


> I Steve (VacuumPump) shared his method of making brandy in order to fortify.


----------



## seth8530

vernsgal said:


> Wow 30 Gal. of port??
> 
> I have to say ,since mentioning this on another thread, and no one really knowing who all was making port, this has been incredible finding all of you.
> 
> Experience is truly what helps us all find our ways.
> 
> Seth: I'm sure if I delve into this you'll help me with you incredible math skills? lol



Yup in willing to help in whatever way that it's possible.


----------



## jamesngalveston

ibglowin is correct...brandy is a fermented wine that is distilled, while everclear is sugar water fermented and distilled, are fermented grain and distilled..not near the same as brandy.
you can not make brandy out of everclear..Period.
i think the reason for using everclear is because you do not have to use near as much to get to the alcohol contend using a pearson square.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

The term Vodka used to be referred to of been made from potatoes. The best Vodka these days are mainly made from grains. 
http://www.absolutad.com/absolut_about/history/made/

I believe we have come a long way when it comes to distill ing and the purity of the product 

So if you distill grape juice properly - is there any difference ??


----------



## vernsgal

Runningwolf said:


> Alright Kim if you want the honest truth, I just bottled over 120 gallons of it three weeks ago and it just went out on the shelves for about $40 I think the price is for 500ml



Dan I had no idea! 120 gal! Any details you're willing to share


----------



## vacuumpumpman

ShawnDTurner said:


> I had an amarone from juice bucket that would not finish, so I decided to make a port out of it. Steve (VacuumPump) shared his method of making brandy in order to fortify. I can say it works like a charm. I took 1 cup of Activated distillers charcoal and added to a 1 gallon glass jug.
> 
> I then poured 3 bottles of 151 everclear and let it sit for 2 weeks, shaking it ever two days. I then strained the everclear into a 1 gallon glass jug and added 1 and half cups of MFT oak Chips. Left it for another 2 weeks. O my Gosh, I took a snort of it and wow Carmel and Vanilla all day rich and velvet. I then racked the amarone backsweeten it to 1.040 added Hung M T, the spirit and a little s02...done.
> 
> Thanks Steve




I am glad it turned out for you -
it is a really easy method to use. 
I will agree with others that the term Brandy - well can be confusing. It is probably the closest thing to 100% brandy that they originally used to make port originally. Unless you have a license to distill 

I talked to a distillery that is just starting up and he makes vodka from apples - interesting ?


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Agreed. I was watching a video online, the video takes place at st George's distillery in cali. They made brandy from pears and such. The master distiller made the same comment. He said if we distill the pears to far, we end up with vodhka. He said with brandy you want something of the fruit to remain.


----------



## ibglowin

From Wikipedia:

*Vodka*: Vodka is made by the distillation of fermented substances such as *grains, potatoes, or sometimes fruits or sugar*.

*Brandy*: Brandy (from brandywine, derived from Dutch brandewijn, "burnt wine") is a spirit produced by *distilling wine*. 

Since Everclear is not a distilled wine but a "rectified spirit" made from grains, it is technically not a Brandy.






vacuumpumpman said:


> The term Vodka used to be referred to of been made from potatoes. The best Vodka these days are mainly made from grains.
> http://www.absolutad.com/absolut_about/history/made/
> 
> I believe we have come a long way when it comes to distill ing and the purity of the product
> 
> So if you distill grape juice properly - is there any difference ??


----------



## vernsgal

ibglowin said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> *Vodka*: Vodka is made by the distillation of fermented substances such as *grains, potatoes, or sometimes fruits or sugar*.
> 
> *Brandy*: Brandy (from brandywine, derived from Dutch brandewijn, "burnt wine") is a spirit produced by *distilling wine*.
> 
> Since Everclear is not a distilled wine but a "rectified spirit" made from grains, it is technically not a Brandy.



and store bought brandy is again not the same so you just go round and round


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Is there a difference chemically between apples, potatoes and grains when the fruit is distilled? So, if you distill switch grass and apples to 95 ,percent alcohol is there a difference in the ethanol chemically or is ethanol...just ethanol?


----------



## jamesngalveston

i think ethanol is just ethanol. not real sure.
most brandys bought in a store that is not a fruit brandy, is distilled from wine.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

Mike 
I am only giving my personal experience with the use of everclear to enhance it so if someone chooses to fortify your port with it you can. 

If you notice in my above post I did make this comment 
"I will agree with others that the term Brandy - well can be confusing. It is probably the closest thing to 100% brandy that they originally used to make port originally. Unless you have a license to distill "

here is some brandy made from grain ?
http://www.cluesener.de/index.php?id=28&L=1

If you distill Wine and pull out all the alcohol - there is no taste - just high proof alcohol.

I would like to talk to you directly more on this matter if you are willing 
Just Pm me and we can exchange phone #


----------



## Deezil

I know I'm about a decade late on joining this thread, but...


Mike's got 'er right

Brandy is made from wine, and normally doesnt go over 40-60% ABV
Higher distilled spirits made from wine, are Grappa or Eau de Vie

I've pretty thoroughly researched a lot of this, as I've wanted to own a winery based around grape+fruit combos & specialty fruit ports (hence the creation of my Banana Bochet Port idea)

Vacuumpumpman, they've just put a marketing spin on that, trying to sell a grain liquor to brandy lovers. Eau de Vie is the closest you can get to true Brandy that the Portuguese add to their wine - but good luck affording it! $60-80 for 375ml of the 'okay stuff' - not the stuff locked up behind a glass window.

If you distill wine to the point where it lacks a majority of the flavor, its Eau de Vie... Like vodka still has flavor, so does Eau de Vie - just not as strong as brandy, but when you drink an Apple Eau de Vie, you know its apple.


----------



## Runningwolf

the_rayway said:


> Wow Dan & BigMac, I have port envy...
> 
> Dan, were they all red grape ports? Kits? Details please!





vernsgal said:


> Dan I had no idea! 120 gal! Any details you're willing to share



This was made from Touriga Nacional grapes. The grapes are pretty difficult to find but they make the very best port in my opinion. I did a a tiny bit of Cab sauv to it.


----------



## seth8530

Coming from a spirit lover here, but an expierenced nose and tounge can taste the difference even from the typed of grains used in making vodka. Ie certain kinds lend a creamier taste on the finish. So, I would venture to say the type of spirit used matters quire a bit.. .But in a way that is much more important than feeling obligated to stick to a certain spirit just because you believe it is the closest used in a certain region...

Ie, if you are making a fruit port, perhaps you would choose to use everklear to try and keep the fruit flavour as prominent as possible... While, if you were making a more traditional grape based port, you would need every bit of grape flavour you can hope to get... Or even better, say you were making apple port ( dont know why you would) but you could fortify it with calvados ( expensive stuff lol).. 

Honestly, I think it all should boil down to what the winemaker is stylistically after rather than one spirit or the other being "better" than the other. However, the winemaker should also understand what each candidate could potentially bring to the wine..

My .05$


----------



## vacuumpumpman

Thanks Deezil for explaining more in depth.


----------



## Runningwolf

vacuumpumpman said:


> Thanks Deezil for explaining more in depth.



additionally, it also comes down to availability and costs to the individual winemaker. If you ferment Jalapenos or Welches frozen grape juice it's still wine, just a different style. I feel you're all right, just different styles and results.


----------



## vernsgal

Runningwolf said:


> additionally, it also comes down to availability and costs to the individual winemaker. If you ferment Jalapenos or Welches frozen grape juice it's still wine, just a different style. I feel you're all right, just different styles and results.



Well said Dan. I made "wine" out of candies


----------



## dangerdave

So, I'm still trying to figure out how to handle my Dragon Port. As I see it, my options are:

1) Halt fermentation at 1.010 with alcohol infusion (of some kind)
2) Sorbate? Some say yes, others say no.
3) If I don't want to add alcohol, what exactly are my options?

Sounds like just adding some Everclear would be the easy route. My Momma said I always had to do things the hard way.


----------



## Runningwolf

Dave port is usually sweet and about 19% abv. Adding alcohol to get your wine to 19% will stop your fermentation, no need for sorbate. If you're not adding alcohol, you will need to ferment to dry (and add sorbate if you're going to sweeten).


----------



## dangerdave

Thanks, Dan. I don't know why I'm trying to get around it. Stubborn, I guess. My brain is telling me strange things. Like...

Ok, the EC-1118 will give out around 18%. What happens if I keep chaptalizing the fermentation until the SG no longer changes? If my target SG is 1.010, can I add sugar, ferment, add sugar, ferment, etc, and when it stabilizes at the desired point, can I leave it without adding additional alcohol?

The port kit I made called for stabilization with sulfite and sorbate at 1.010, then add the f-pack. Can't I go that route, too?


----------



## Runningwolf

Psst Dave, pull up a stool and meet me in the corner. Now shut the f^%$ and stick to Dragons Blood!  

Sorbate won't stop a fermentation but it help prevent it from starting back up with the help of k-meta.

Now I'll really stir the pot. Occasionally I find it necessary to sweeten a big red just a tiny bit to pull out some more of the berry flavors. I never go over 1/2% rs and I never add sorbate. No issues. If one cannot figure out the exact amount of sugar I would not recommend this.

Think outside of the corner!


----------



## dangerdave

I've done the same thing, adding just a tiny hint of sweet to a red, just to pull out the fruit. Won an award for one of those. Bazinga!

But this IS a Dragon Blood---of sort. I'm just trying to expand my horizons a bit. Branch out, so to speak. Can't lean on my past successes forever. Blah-blah, etc, etc.

Ok, I'm going to get some effin Everclear for my port. Sheesh!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Dave. Try the method I/steve laid out to soften and smoothed out the everclear! You will be shocked! Cheers


----------



## Deezil

dangerdave said:


> Ok, the EC-1118 will give out around 18%. What happens if I keep chaptalizing the fermentation until the SG no longer changes? If my target SG is 1.010, can I add sugar, ferment, add sugar, ferment, etc, and when it stabilizes at the desired point, can I leave it without adding additional alcohol?




The only catch with this is that you'd have the potential for off-flavors from stressing the yeast or running out of nutrients. The nutrients can be worked around, by using organic amino-based nutrients but the stressing of the yeast just kinda comes with the territory, there...


----------



## vernsgal

Runningwolf said:


> Psst Dave, pull up a stool and meet me in the corner. Now shut the f^%$ and stick to Dragons Blood!
> 
> Sorbate won't stop a fermentation but it help prevent it from starting back up with the help of k-meta.
> 
> Now I'll really stir the pot.
> Think outside of the corner!



Lol. I myself like to stir a pot on occasion just to see what/or who will boil over 

It is nice to see there are so many of you making Ports. I plan on starting my own in the New Year, so 2015 I’ll be able to add my 2 cents worth to these type of questions.

I knew when I opened this post I was going to hear various ways and views and I’m glad to have seen a few.  

My Port will probably be a fruit one opposed to grape so right off the bat I’m not true 
I’m also Canadian so everclear etc. aren’t even possible for me. 

I am glad to have found you. I started making wine back in 2009 ( all kits and pails) because it allowed me to make what I enjoyed and at a price I can afford.( I found you back then but have to admit I was a silent stalker, lol.) I joined this site late last year to learn how to do nonkit/pails. I am always glad to read your experiences and not to be sent to another site to read someone else’s ( as some other site’s have you do, sorry I hate links unless it’s to someone I can question) Before I post a question I have read so much on the topic ( and yes a lot of it is conflicting, such as this 1 )and is why I’m looking to you for “your” outcomes. I’m not looking to make commercial so I don’t care who’s way is right or wrong. I DO want to know how you made yours and how it turned out at what age, the math,what not to do etc.

Just want to say you all give me a smile


----------



## Runningwolf

vernsgal said:


> Lol. I myself like to stir a pot on occasion just to see what/or who will boil over
> 
> 
> I am glad to have found you. I started making wine back in 2009 ( all kits and pails) because it allowed me to make what I enjoyed and at a price I can afford.( I found you back then but have to admit I was a silent stalker, lol.) I joined this site late last year to learn how to do nonkit/pails. I am always glad to read your experiences and not to be sent to another site to read someone else’s ( as some other site’s have you do, sorry I hate links unless it’s to someone I can question) Before I post a question I have read so much on the topic ( and yes a lot of it is conflicting, such as this 1 )and is why I’m looking to you for “your” outcomes. I’m not looking to make commercial so I don’t care who’s way is right or wrong. I DO want to know how you made yours and how it turned out at what age, the math,what not to do etc.
> 
> Just want to say you all give me a smile


----------



## BigMac

Hi Kim;

Used to live in Langley before I moved to the windy city.
Had to give away 50 gal of wine when I moved, broke my heart!
A few trips to Blain will fix you up with everclear.

This year I started with 200lb of Zin grapes and pulled off 4.5+ gal of free run at 1.04 sg. At 3am in the morning I used the Pearson square and my best estimate and ended up with 6 gal of Zin port. Stop adding 190 proof when it stops fermenting and you are there. In 3 years you will get the hang of it.
The best part though is the 12 gal of Zin which fermented on an additional 30% of the skins. Man, this is looking nice and rich and super full bodied. This is going to be a winner. I’ll know in a year or two.
Cheers
Jim


----------



## vernsgal

Runningwolf said:


>



aww! right back at you Dan


----------



## cmason1957

Just to be contrary, I went with the chapitalize method to raise alcohol. I started at 1.105. Fermented down to 1.050. Added sugar back up to 1.105. Fermented down to 1.050. More sugar back up to 1.090. Then left it to ferment down. It went to 1.010. This was 65 pounds of blackberries. Yeast nutriment was added with each sugar addition to help the yeast out. I did not use ec-1118, but don't recall what I did use. It said good to 18% also. I probably got a bit higher than that. As Seth points out, it is impossible to know for sure without accurate volumes at each point and I don't have those.

Now for taste and smell. I take the bung off and the blackberry smell overwhelms the area. The taste is very good, but needs to be a bit sweeter. I don't plan to add any other fortification alcohol. In about a year, I will know if this is the way I want to continue, but initial thoughts are yes.


----------



## vernsgal

cmason1957 said:


> Just to be contrary, I went with the chapitalize method to raise alcohol. I started at 1.105. Fermented down to 1.050. Added sugar back up to 1.105. Fermented down to 1.050. More sugar back up to 1.090. Then left it to ferment down. It went to 1.010. This was 65 pounds of blackberries. Yeast nutriment was added with each sugar addition to help the yeast out. I did not use ec-1118, but don't recall what I did use. It said good to 18% also. I probably got a bit higher than that. As Seth points out, it is impossible to know for sure without accurate volumes at each point and I don't have those.
> 
> Now for taste and smell. I take the bung off and the blackberry smell overwhelms the area. The taste is very good, but needs to be a bit sweeter. I don't plan to add any other fortification alcohol. In about a year, I will know if this is the way I want to continue, but initial thoughts are yes.


 When you taste at a year be sure to post back here and let us know! Thanks!


----------



## vernsgal

BigMac said:


> Hi Kim;
> 
> Used to live in Langley before I moved to the windy city.
> Had to give away 50 gal of wine when I moved, broke my heart!
> A few trips to Blain will fix you up with everclear.
> 
> This is going to be a winner. I’ll know in a year or two.
> Cheers
> Jim


Jim you'll have to find this thread a year or so from now and give us your reviews!!

We're part time in Coquitlam but have built and are retiring in June to the Shuswap. So can you bring that stuff easily over the border?


----------



## dangerdave

Great info! Thanks for all the clues, guys!


----------



## FTC Wines

Cmason, when my blackberry port needed a little sweetening I used Blackberry Brandy, just go slow, that stuff is pretty sweet. I made my port from concentrate got to 16.5 ABV, then after clearing fortified with regular Brandy & blackberry Brandy. It turned out real nice. Roy


----------



## cmason1957

FTC Wines said:


> Cmason, when my blackberry port needed a little sweetening I used Blackberry Brandy, just go slow, that stuff is pretty sweet. I made my port from concentrate got to 16.5 ABV, then after clearing fortified with regular Brandy & blackberry Brandy. It turned out real nice. Roy



I just said blackberry brandy to my associate winemaker (wife). She said ob my, that sounds like an interesting way to fortify this. I may have to get some and try that.


----------



## dangerdave

Yes, indeed. Some blackberry brandy would go good with the Dragon Port recipe. I'll have to see if I can find some.


----------



## petey

the_rayway said:


> Has anyone tried a side-by-side using the two most popular 'port' methods?
> 
> 1) Chapatalization to get high ABV, then backsweeten and flavour if necessary
> 2) Stop fermentation with brandy at 1.055-1.045ish without any further sweetning or flavouring?
> 
> I think I see an experiment brewing...



This spring I racked some of my blueberry wine off onto a gallon carboy @1.030. I used grain alcohol (extract) that I made with blueberries,quite nice. The extract stopped my fermentation and left my wine both fortified and sweet. At last racking it was young but Very promising . I Will use a homemade extract like those for my future fortified wines


----------



## vernsgal

I know this is an older thread (but not that old) and since posting I have another question for you port makers that step feed your sugars in your ports.
I did a 1 gal. chocolate/cherry port which I step fed to just over 17% alc,(at which time it stopped) then added cherry brandy which brought it just over 18 %. 
My question is: if I'm to back sweeten this now, it ended at 1.014, do I need to add sorbate or because I ran the yeast out, it not be needed?


----------



## Runningwolf

Kim you do not need to add sorbate or K-meta. The alcohol will protect it.


----------



## vernsgal

Thanks Dan. I didn't know I wouldn't need the k-meta, wouldn't have thought to ask on that one


----------



## vernsgal

Hi everyone! Doing a 2nd port and since there was so much useful info on this thread I figured I would stay with it 
I'm planning a blackberry port in the next few days. I think I'm going to step feed following cmasons feeds (i think it was p.2 or 3) Anyways, what starting SG do you guys recommend?Should I start real high so it ends at a higher number,then just not needing much sweetener other than alcohol?Or should I stick around 1.100?I want to use a blackberry brandy to fortify.
suggestions ...


----------



## spaniel

I would not add all the sugar up front. Too much sugar can inhibit proper activity of the yeast. Whether you add it now or later, you still need to add it. Waiting doesn't help you and adding up front COULD hurt you.


----------



## richmke

My port kit started at 1.128, and it has you adding another 0.015 when it gets down to 1.020. I wouldn't start it any higher than that. The combo gets you to 18% abv (assuming all the sugar is fermented), which is the state limit on the yeast. Probably better to start lower, and add more sugar in stages. But, as a kit, most people would mess up if there are too many time critical steps.

The home made port has you starting at 1.10 and fortifying when you hit 1.020.


----------



## vernsgal

cmason1957 said:


> Here is what I did with my blackberry port style that I made this year. 65 pounds of frozen blackberries, a small amount of water and sugar to get the sg up to 1.120 (or about that) let it ferment down to 1.050, add sugar to take the sg back up to 1.100, let ferment to 1.050 add sugar back to 1.100. Let ferment to where it stopped. And I think it got almost to dry. I believe this gave me about 20% alcohol. I'll probably sweeten it some. It still tastes like a blackberry, but with a heck of a kick.



this is about how I was thinking of step feeding


----------



## richmke

vernsgal said:


> this is about how I was thinking of step feeding



Too much sugar.
1.120-> 1.05 is ABV of 9.2%
1st addition 1.10->1.05 is ABV of 6.6%
2nd addition 1.10->1.00 is ABV of 13.1

Total alcohol is 28.9%. Way too high for most yeast.

If you stop at the 1st addition, it will hit 20% abv at SG 1.02, which is about where you want Port to stop.


----------



## vernsgal

richmke said:


> Too much sugar.
> 1.120-> 1.05 is ABV of 9.2%
> 1st addition 1.10->1.05 is ABV of 6.6%
> 2nd addition 1.10->1.00 is ABV of 13.1
> 
> Total alcohol is 28.9%. Way too high for most yeast.
> 
> If you stop at the 1st addition, it will hit 20% abv at SG 1.02, which is about where you want Port to stop.



Thanks. I didn't do the math.

I haven't tried adding all the sugar up front and letting it go. It would be easier than trying to catch it at certain points.Can a yeast survive if I bring my sugars up to 1.120 and let it go dry?


----------



## oldwino54

I have fortified adding brandy on a couple of ports, one a little strong!!! Any thoughts on the amount of brandy for a kit sized port??


----------



## richmke

vernsgal said:


> Can a yeast survive if I bring my sugars up to 1.120 and let it go dry?



The WE kit starts at 1.128, so the answer is yes. But, they give you 2 packets.

IMHO: I would start at 1.10, let it ferment down to 1.02, add sugar to 1.05, then

Let it ferment down to 1.01, and add sugar back to 1.02. Repeat until the yeast give up.


----------



## richmke

oldwino54 said:


> I have fortified adding brandy on a couple of ports, one a little strong!!! Any thoughts on the amount of brandy for a kit sized port??



Port is typically 19-23% alcohol. If you follow the kit instructions, you get to 18%. Brady is 80 proof, or 40%.

For a 3 gallon kit, 1 bottle (750 ml) will get you to 19.4%, and 4 bottles will get you to 22.6%


----------



## sour_grapes

oldwino54 said:


> I have fortified adding brandy on a couple of ports, one a little strong!!! Any thoughts on the amount of brandy for a kit sized port??



Rich has given you the bounds. To dial in you preferred amount, you can use a Pearson's Square. 
Here is an explanation: http://blog.eckraus.com/blog/wine-making-tricks-and-tips/pearsons-square-wine-blending-fortifying

And here is an online tool to do the math for you: http://www.vinovation.com/Pearson.html


----------



## richmke

FYI: True port is fortified with 190 proof Grape Alcohol. I have no idea if there is a taste difference between Grape vs. Grain Alcohol (Everclear).

So, one could say that fortifying with Everclear (95% alcohol) is closer (less dilution) to true port than fortifying with Brandy (40% alcohol).


----------



## ibglowin

Ok I see the whole grain spirits (Everclear) vs grape spirits (Brandy, Grappa) debate rearing its head again........


----------



## vernsgal

ibglowin said:


> Ok I see the whole grain spirits (Everclear) vs grape spirits (Brandy, Grappa) debate rearing its head again........


----------



## ibglowin

I don't think a "true" Port has Everclear or any other grain spirit added to it.

It may be a "less diluted" port styled wine. 

But not necessarily anything else at least IMHO.



richmke said:


> So, one could say that fortifying with Everclear (95% alcohol) is closer (less dilution) to true port than fortifying with Brandy (40% alcohol).


----------



## JohnT

oldwino54 said:


> I have fortified adding brandy on a couple of ports, one a little strong!!! Any thoughts on the amount of brandy for a kit sized port??


 

Check out the sticky on pearson's square.


----------



## richmke

ibglowin said:


> I don't think a "true" Port has Everclear or any other grain spirit added to it.



I presumed that Taylor makes a "true" port:

http://www.taylor.pt/en/what-is-port-wine/how-is-port-made/

They use a mixture of grape varietals to add complexity to the wine. 



> When about half of the natural sugar of the grape juice has been turned into alcohol by the fermentation, the wine maker gives the signal for the fortification process to start.



They add "brandy". But, not what you would consider "brandy". Brandy, in as much as it is made from grapes, but distilled to a much higher alcohol content, and not aged.

http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/49008

Per Taylor, they are using 77% Brandy, or 150 proof. Not the 80 proof brandy typically found in stores.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

richmke said:


> I presumed that Taylor makes a "true" port:
> 
> http://www.taylor.pt/en/what-is-port-wine/how-is-port-made/
> 
> They use a mixture of grape varietals to add complexity to the wine.
> 
> 
> 
> They add "brandy". But, not what you would consider "brandy". Brandy, in as much as it is made from grapes, but distilled to a much higher alcohol content, and not aged.
> 
> http://www.winespectator.com/webfeature/show/id/49008
> 
> Per Taylor, they are using 77% Brandy, or 150 proof. Not the 80 proof brandy typically found in stores.




very interesting articles - Thanks alot for sharing


----------



## corinth

*any-experienced-port-makers-*

Hi all,
As I read all the threads, I find the whole process very fascinating. I bought some peach brandy and apple Brandy awhile ago while I was watching some movie about moonshiners and they mentioned it. If I were to make a fortified wine, port style wine, what type of grape would the peach brandy or apple Brandy work best in?

I also came across some Everclear and was surprised that it was 151 proof. that seemed odd as I remember not that long ago that it was a higher proof. There was this guy who was buying a lot of it and he said that the alcohol content used to be higher(he is an herbalist-I did not ask what kind of herbs)?

Has the proof of Everclear dropped over the years?
Thank You
Corinth


----------



## ibglowin

No but some states have passed laws that limit the maximum ABV that can be sold.



corinth said:


> Has the proof of Everclear dropped over the years?
> Thank You
> Corinth


----------



## richmke

corinth said:


> If I were to make a fortified wine, port style wine, what type of grape would the peach brandy or apple Brandy work best in?



I don't think the brandy is intended to add flavor, but nothing wrong with using flavored brandy.



> I also came across some Everclear and was surprised that it was 151 proof. that seemed odd as I remember not that long ago that it was a higher proof.



In Wisconsin, you can still buy 190 proof Everclear. I didn't see any 151 proof for sale.


----------



## Thig

GA still has 190 proof, I use it in my "apple pie moonshine."


----------

