# Topping up the Carboy



## kuziwk (Apr 5, 2018)

Hi Guys this is a question that has always puzzled me. How high up the carboy do these need to be topped up? I was told that if you put in sulphites it does not need to be within 2" of the bung. Right now i need about 1/3 of a bottle top up one carboy i just dont want to open a bottle just for that.


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## Ajmassa (Apr 5, 2018)

Whoever said that is incorrect. Having headspace with sulphites will just delay the oxidizing- not prevent it. The o2 will eventually eat up all available free so2. Loading more and more is adding an unnecessary amount of total so2. 
The adverse can work—topped up without sulphites. But your air space will just allow you to see the eventual crud growing on the surface better. 
Go high enough for the wine’s surface area to be neck’s radius- not the shoulders or lower. Couple inches from bottom of rubber stopper


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## Trevor7 (Apr 5, 2018)

You'll find that opening a bottle is a lot cheaper than losing a carboy to oxidation. I have seen comments that some have a box wine <Shudder> that they use for topping up. This way they aren't opening bottles and the remaining wine will keep for the next top-off. I go by the two finger rule - about 1.5 inches from the stopper and this has worked well for me. As for the left-over wine from the bottle? Yummm...!


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## Monty Knapp (Apr 11, 2018)

Sometimes I use glass pebbles. You can by them cheap at a dollar store. I buy the clear ones that have no iridescent coating. I wash them thoroughly - you'll be surprised how dirty they can be. And then I soak them in vinegar for about a week.
Sanitize them when you are ready to use them, then drop them into the carboy to raise the level. Only problem is that any sediment ends up on top of them instead of on the bottom of the carboy.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 12, 2018)

I like using the headspace eliminator 
https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/headspace-eliminator/


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## Monty Knapp (Apr 12, 2018)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I like using the headspace eliminator
> https://www.allinonewinepump.com/product/headspace-eliminator/


Looks like you need a vacuum pump to draw on one pipe and that causes a balloon to "inflate" inside the top of the carboy?


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## malfrune (Apr 12, 2018)

Monty Knapp said:


> Looks like you need a vacuum pump to draw on one pipe and that causes a balloon to "inflate" inside the top of the carboy?



No balloon inside the carboy it just sucks the air out. The bulb on there just stays deflated so you know you still have vacuum. A handheld brake bleeder pump works just fine for it, and despite owning a all-in-one pump I still keep a manual pump next to the carboy for the headspace eliminator only takes a few seconds to pump down whatever the CO2 displaced. It degasses like nothing else as well, you have to keep pumping it down for a few days but once the wine stops degassing there's no CO2 left.


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## Monty Knapp (Apr 12, 2018)

I see.
I've been looking at a cheap ($75) vacuum pump - used to evacuate AC systems, but says it has other uses such as degassing wine, etc ..... Cheaper than the all-in-one pump.
Any thoughts?


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 12, 2018)

Monty Knapp said:


> I see.
> I've been looking at a cheap ($75) vacuum pump - used to evacuate AC systems, but says it as other uses such as degassing wine, etc ..... Cheaper than the all-in-one pump.
> Any thoughts?


Plenty.
Add up the cost of building any accessories the aio comes with.
Is the pump oil less, ( for ac work probably not).
Oil pump needs some extra steps. They vaporize oil so deal with that first. Then there is an argument for oil flowing backwards through system to the wine, (not my argument but its there) a buffering jar and or loops in the vacuum hose.


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## Monty Knapp (Apr 13, 2018)

meadmaker1 said:


> Plenty.
> Add up the cost of building any accessories the aio comes with.
> Is the pump oil less, ( for ac work probably not).
> Oil pump needs some extra steps. They vaporize oil so deal with that first. Then there is an argument for oil flowing backwards through system to the wine, (not my argument but its there) a buffering jar and or loops in the vacuum hose.



Most of the reviews on the pump complain about the oil mist. Doesn't sound like a good idea now, with you bringing up the same concern. Thanks.


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## meadmaker1 (Apr 13, 2018)

Its not hard to deal with oil, but you do need to....... $10
Hoses. Stoppers, fittings ........ $20 
Racking can to butcher for parts $10
Opps one size stopper wont work and screwed up the one that did $10. 
Doing it all fresh when you find what works $30 
Dam it scewed up another stopper. And so on. Lol


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## Doug’s wines (Apr 13, 2018)

Just had a friend end up with a broken carboy that was just sitting under pressure using the headspace eliminator. Anyone else have this happen to them? The carboy developed a leak at the base and when he found it, he tried to move the carboy. The bottom fell off and he lost a whole batch of almost ready amarone.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 13, 2018)

I really, really doubt the headspace eliminator had anything to do with it.


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## Doug’s wines (Apr 13, 2018)

Maybe or maybe not. Currently it is getting the blame. Even if it was a glass flaw, the (negative) pressure is ultimately the likely initiator of the leak as the carboy was sitting for weeks before the leak began and only disturbance was maintenance of the headspace eliminator’s pressure.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 13, 2018)

Fair enough. But anyway, to directly answer your question: No, I have not had that happen to me (even though I routinely pull deep vacuums on my carboys).


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 13, 2018)

I would like to know a couple of answers to these questions - 

Was he using the Allinonewinepump ?

If not what vacuum pressures did he bring it down to ? and for how long ?

The carboy will typically go from 22 inches of vacuum and removing CO2 till it reaches around 14 inches of vacuum

I have noticed that cleaning or rinsing any carboy with anything more than room temperature water can cause the glass to get stress cracks if not crack suddenly.

I have pulled vacuum till I was actually was boiling water for many hours - with no issues

I will keep monitoring this discussion


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## Trevor7 (Apr 13, 2018)

Doug’s wines said:


> Just had a friend end up with a broken carboy that was just sitting under pressure using the headspace eliminator. Anyone else have this happen to them? The carboy developed a leak at the base and when he found it, he tried to move the carboy. The bottom fell off and he lost a whole batch of almost ready amarone.



From what I've seen, chances are that they dinged the carboy moving it around. Doesn't have to be hard, but the slightest chip can spread into a full on crack.


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## Doug’s wines (Apr 13, 2018)

Hi Steve, yes he was using your AIO which he found based on my suggestion from reading posts on this forum even though I don’t personally use one. He was looking for a more effective degassing solution which led me to suggest the AIO to him based solely on reviews on this board so I feel a bit responsible for his situation thus when it came up here I thought I would see if anyone else has had a similar experience given I can’t find anything on cyclical fatigue or thermal performance testing of standard glass carboys online. I was not trying to disparage or single out any solution. 

I feel like at this point this thread is getting hijacked  so we should probably either move this particular conversation offline or start another topic as it seems beyond the scope of toping a carboy up


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## sour_grapes (Apr 13, 2018)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I have noticed that cleaning or rinsing any carboy with anything more than room temperature water can cause the glass to get stress cracks if not crack suddenly.



You have? So I can be safe, I would like to know details. What exactly have you noticed?


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 13, 2018)

@ Paul - 

Glass does not like large temperature changes - I took this article from here It can explain it better than I can 
- http://www.aleslombergar.com/forum/at-what-temperature-does-glass-break-from-being-cold-to-hot/


Glass will break when internal stresses are set up which cause the glass to fracture. These stresses are set up when the temperature of the glass is not uniform from one place to another. So, it is not so much a function of the temperature as the speed of a change in temperature which makes certain parts hotter or cooler than others.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 13, 2018)

Yes, I know about glass. You said "I have noticed." Have you in fact observed problems with cleaning carboys with hot water? I have not.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 13, 2018)

sour_grapes said:


> Yes, I know about glass. You said "I have noticed." Have you in fact observed problems with cleaning carboys with hot water? I have not.



Yes I did break one personally using Hot water - The entire bottom cracked and fell into the washtub.


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## sour_grapes (Apr 14, 2018)

Well that sucks! Hope it never happens to me!


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## GaDawg (Apr 14, 2018)

I’ve been using the head space eliminates for two years without an issue.


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## mainshipfred (Apr 14, 2018)

My intention is not to doubt the comments of others but this hot water cracking is a little hard to accept. We put glassware in our dishwashers all the time that immediately gets blasted with hot water. Commerial dishwashers have preheat cycles to get the water even hotter prior to washing. When baking a cake you are putting a glass baking pan on a metal rack at over 350 degrees. I believe the cracking discussed had to come from a pre existing condition.


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## pillswoj (Apr 14, 2018)

I also have had a carboy break from hot water, it is very real. Have also had glasses break in the dishwasher for no reason, typically when they are older. Glass baking pans are a special glass to resist heat stress - pyrex etc.


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## Doug’s wines (Apr 14, 2018)

Fred, Search for info on Glass thermal shock. Pretty well understood issue. Also feel free to search for threads on breaking carboys, but be prepared for the pictures like those in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

And here’s a video showing a carboy test from freezing to boiling:


Your glass baking pan is tempered and designed to withstand those temp variances, however I had those break on me as well when sat down on a cool surface (granite). I haven’t yet found any evidence or info on carboy manufacturing process, but I am looking if anyone as good links. 

I use glass and plastic carboys so I’m not making a case for one over the other, just suggesting that people should understand the risks and use the materials for appropriate purposes. I also hope you are using your glass carboys under pressure and temperature variance with full understanding of the potential risks that thermal shock, cyclic fatigue or other pressure / temperature changes bring with a glass vessel like a carboy.


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## malfrune (Apr 14, 2018)

mainshipfred said:


> My intention is not to doubt the comments of others but this hot water cracking is a little hard to accept. We put glassware in our dishwashers all the time that immediately gets blasted with hot water. Commerial dishwashers have preheat cycles to get the water even hotter prior to washing. When baking a cake you are putting a glass baking pan on a metal rack at over 350 degrees. I believe the cracking discussed had to come from a pre existing condition.



Cookware is a different type of glass; Pyrex or borosilicate glass isn't as susceptible to cracking from heat as normal glass but can still break if it's extreme enough. If you want to try it take a wine bottle and alternate running under a hot tap and dunking it in a bowl of ice water, it'll eventually break. Or take that cookware out of the oven and set it on some cold water you didn't notice was on the counter. I ruined dinner one night that way, whole dish split.


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## GaDawg (Apr 14, 2018)

malfrune said:


> Cookware is a different type of glass; Pyrex or borosilicate glass isn't as susceptible to cracking from heat as normal glass but can still break if it's extreme enough.


Pyrex taken out of a hot oven and placed in a puddle of cold water will break in a hart beat!


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## mainshipfred (Apr 14, 2018)

But these are all extremes. The carboy test was done with a frozen carboy, you all are right about the pyrex and it's temperature characteristics but it is also brittle. If a carboy is cleaned after use I would think it would be at a 70+/- degree range. Hot tap water is probably more like 110 - 120 max. Personally I'll take my chances in washing my carboys with hot/warm water. I feel the detergents work better.


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## vacuumpumpman (Apr 14, 2018)

It is the temperature change difference - if in a dish washer and the water is warming up - then it would be more of a gradual process rather than a temperature shock difference.

I also have alot of respect for glass carboys like other things in my life that I take precautionary measures with.

For glass carboys - my personal precautionary measures are -

Never lift a full carboy
never wash or rinse my carboys with a large temperature difference
Always keep your empty carboys and hands dry while moving carboys
Use the carboy handles and use your other free hand by holding the bottom of the carboy at the same time
I like to keep the carboy in a milk crate - to make it easier to move and to protect them from hitting each other
Never put it directly on a concrete floor - always put a mat or an insulator to protect the bottom of the carboy
Check glass carboys for cracks and defects prior to using them.
Make sure you are wearing proper attire

I know that it seem to be alot of precautionary measures -

Once you start using these procedures it just becomes automatic to you.


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## pgentile (Apr 14, 2018)

I have glass carboys ranging from new to water cooler(great bear) 20+ years old. All of them get hit with water ranging from cold(winter time straight from tap) to room temp to hot water heater hot, have most more than 4 years. Luckily I have had no losses to date. Probably on borrowed time.


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## BigMac (Apr 15, 2018)

There is zero probability that the crack was caused by the headspace eliminator. 
I have been making wine for 35 years and always have at least 20 carboys on the go.
In this time I had two carboys crack on me.
But I know why.
They "touched" the basement floor a little too hard.
But it was not apparent immediately.
Its like a ding in your windshield, it takes a while for it to form a crack and work its way across the windshield.
The crack didn't start because I sneezed in my car.
Tell your friend to use handles for his carboys.
Be gentle with the carboys.
And hey, every once in a while shit happens.
Don't blame the guy who just changed your oil when your brakes go the next day.
OK, I'm done.
cheers.


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## Kiazer (Apr 27, 2018)

Doug’s wines said:


> Just had a friend end up with a broken carboy that was just sitting under pressure using the headspace eliminator. Anyone else have this happen to them? The carboy developed a leak at the base and when he found it, he tried to move the carboy. The bottom fell off and he lost a whole batch of almost ready amarone.


Odds are he had a microscopic fracture


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