# Viognier...here we go again? What should I do different? Another shot at it in 2020?



## NorCal (Aug 2, 2019)

The plans for Chardonnay grapes this season fell through. A late call to the Viognier vineyard owner was fruitful (pun intended). So, @4score and I are going to go for it again. We will get a macrobin (1,000 pounds or so) do the crush/press and each leave with our own juice to make wine out of.

Last year was a real struggle for me as the wine had quite the Sauvignon Blanc bite to it, which is not my cup of tea. I went through some acid reduction activities to make it the wine I wanted it to be. The 4Score crew liked the flavor profile and left it as is. Not better or worse, just different. Both won silvers at the CA state fair.

Last year I was at 23.7 brix, 3.5 pH, I used D47 with fermentation temp at 70 degrees and Beta for MLF. I did not measure TA, which is what I believe drove the acidity which I did not like.

This year, I want to taste a nice, soft wine that is aromatic and light fruity pear flavors. This mirrors a Viognoir made by one of the best commercial winemakers in our area. I am going to hit him up on his suggestions, in order to achieve this taste profile, but would like your recommendations as well.


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## DoctorCAD (Aug 2, 2019)

IMO, a viognier should not be made sur lee. Lots of commercial viogniers taste too much like a Chardonnay to me. I prefer the clean and crisp taste instead of the buttery taste.

Oh, and zero oak.


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## NorCal (Aug 2, 2019)

DoctorCAD said:


> IMO, a viognier should not be made sur lee. Lots of commercial viogniers taste too much like a Chardonnay to me. I prefer the clean and crisp taste instead of the buttery taste.
> 
> Oh, and zero oak.


Thus the difference in our palates. My goal is to make it in the style you described the commercial winemakers making it, except not golden/oaky Chardonnay, but more fruity and smooth. It took a lot of coaxing to get it to that place last season. I’d like to change some things on the front end to minimize the heavy handedness on the backend.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 3, 2019)

I like a light, floral Viognier with fruit, but a hint of acid. I've used both QA23 and BA11 yeast. They were very different wines, but they were also from different hemispheres. My preference is no sur lie, no oak. Then again, I like my chardonnay that way more often than not too.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 3, 2019)

@NorCal, first of all I'm going to be making my first Viognier this year from Virginia grapes and I like the flavor profile you are describing so please let us know what your commercial guy recommends. But more so, and this may go off on a different tangent, this TA thing is something I could never get a handle on. It's known that pH and TA are inversely proportional but when we make acid adjustments to lower the pH it is done using Tartaric acid when this is not the only acid in wine. Now if we were to use some of the other acids like citric, malic, succinic, sorbic or others I could see how TA would make a difference and have an influence on the taste. On the other hand, but similar, I don't know how the different chemicals or method of reducing the acid level plays on the percentage of the removal of the different acids. I know this goes back to the science/art thing but it has always puzzled me.


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 3, 2019)

One of the local wineries likes to use some PVPP on certain white varietals they make to reduce a bit of astringency they get during the crush/press. I'm not sure if viognier falls into that camp but could help.

Acid management like you did last year is a major lever.

The other (somewhat unloved) option is to backsweeten a small amount, like 5g/L. At that level you won't perceive the sweetness but it balances acid and enhances the fruit aromas.


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## cmason1957 (Aug 3, 2019)

One other thing that may be done to enhance the flavors is to add a small amount of another varietal to the wine. I believe that happens much more often than we know in the commercial wine making.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 3, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> @NorCal, first of all I'm going to be making my first Viognier this year from Virginia grapes and I like the flavor profile you are describing so please let us know what your commercial guy recommends. But more so, and this may go off on a different tangent, this TA thing is something I could never get a handle on. It's known that pH and TA are inversely proportional but when we make acid adjustments to lower the pH it is done using Tartaric acid when this is not the only acid in wine. Now if we were to use some of the other acids like citric, malic, succinic, sorbic or others I could see how TA would make a difference and have an influence on the taste. On the other hand, but similar, I don't know how the different chemicals or method of reducing the acid level plays on the percentage of the removal of the different acids. I know this goes back to the science/art thing but it has always puzzled me.



Fred: maybe we should do an @NorCal @4score experiment this year and make two different Viogniers from the same grapes...


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## jgmillr1 (Aug 3, 2019)

cmason1957 said:


> One other thing that may be done to enhance the flavors is to add a small amount of another varietal to the wine. I believe that happens much more often than we know in the commercial wine making.



True. The wine only needs to be 75% the listed varietal per TTB rules.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 3, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Fred: maybe we should do an @NorCal @4score experiment this year and make two different Viogniers from the same grapes...



I'm already able to get some Petite Manseng for you but still working on the Viognier. My one source was reluctant but agreed to 100 lbs. I do like your idea though, @NorCal and @4score can't have all the fun.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 3, 2019)

Sweet! I'd love either some PM or Viognier! Happy with either.


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## NorCal (Aug 3, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Fred: maybe we should do an @NorCal @4score experiment this year and make two different Viogniers from the same grapes...


Hmmm, then do a dual bottle swap and judging?


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## NorCal (Aug 3, 2019)

Some great suggestions! That is why I love this forum. Blending partner, slight backsweeten, be prepared to do a better job stabilizating the wine if I have to deacidify, PVPP, different yeast. Thanks


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## mainshipfred (Aug 3, 2019)

NorCal said:


> Hmmm, then do a dual bottle swap and judging?



That's a good idea. Grapes coming from 2 different regions should make a difference also. Viognier is a grape that does well in Virginia.


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## NorCal (Aug 12, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> That's a good idea. Grapes coming from 2 different regions should make a difference also. Viognier is a grape that does well in Virginia.


I was reading this Viognier article that @4score sent me and it is funny that both our locations were specifically named for Viognier.

_The best recipe for Viognier grapes is a cool climate with a long enough season to gain full ripeness without bloated sugar levels. It’s much better to get ripe flavors at 23 °Brix than to have to wait till 27 °Brix, and better to have natural acidity than to have to add in your own. There are places in coastal California and the *Sierra Foothills *where nature serves up good conditions, as well as sites in *Virginia* and elsewhere; and there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of acres in other places, mostly warm ones, where Viognier grapes get unbalanced and have to be retrofitted in the winery. Truly cool places like the Finger Lakes in New York State or Mendocino County’s Anderson Valley in California cannot get Viognier ripe._

Full article


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## mainshipfred (Aug 12, 2019)

NorCal said:


> I was reading this Viognier article that @4score sent me and it is funny that both our locations were specifically named for Viognier.
> 
> _The best recipe for Viognier grapes is a cool climate with a long enough season to gain full ripeness without bloated sugar levels. It’s much better to get ripe flavors at 23 °Brix than to have to wait till 27 °Brix, and better to have natural acidity than to have to add in your own. There are places in coastal California and the *Sierra Foothills *where nature serves up good conditions, as well as sites in *Virginia* and elsewhere; and there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of acres in other places, mostly warm ones, where Viognier grapes get unbalanced and have to be retrofitted in the winery. Truly cool places like the Finger Lakes in New York State or Mendocino County’s Anderson Valley in California cannot get Viognier ripe._
> 
> Full article



Good find, looking forward to the competition. Still haven't decided on the yeast but I'll definitely to a cold fermentation.


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## NorCal (Aug 13, 2019)

@4score and I had a yeast discussion yesterday. We used D47 last year, this year, on a recommendation, we are going to use Rhône 4600. Mine is going through mlf, @4score was talking about skipping.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 13, 2019)

NorCal said:


> @4score and I had a yeast discussion yesterday. We used D47 last year, this year, on a recommendation, we are going to use Rhône 4600. Mine is going through mlf, @4score was talking about skipping.



Been doing a little research on the yeasts. Rhone 4600 and QA 23 are two of my goto's for whites. But I was also thinking of 71B. Whatever I finally decide on it will be fermented using 3 different yeasts, MLF I really haven't yet considered.


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## NorCal (Aug 13, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Been doing a little research on the yeasts. Rhone 4600 and QA 23 are two of my goto's for whites. But I was also thinking of 71B. Whatever I finally decide on it will be fermented using 3 different yeasts, MLF I really haven't yet considered.



3 yeasts. You are serious!


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## mainshipfred (Aug 13, 2019)

NorCal said:


> 3 yeasts. You are serious!



Everything I make is with 3 yeasts. I either keep them separate or blend them after press depending on how many carboys I have plus this fall I'll have a 25 liter barrel dedicated to whites.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 13, 2019)

NorCal said:


> @4score and I had a yeast discussion yesterday. We used D47 last year, this year, on a recommendation, we are going to use Rhône 4600. Mine is going through mlf, @4score was talking about skipping.



I will probably go with QA23 or BA11. No MLF, no oak. If I had a stainless steel fermenter, I'd use it. 

Yeah, Fred is hard core with his yeast blends.


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## 4score (Aug 13, 2019)

Very interesting. I'm going to go with a Prelude start before the Rhone 4600. Thinking also about using this opportunity to test another yeast in a carboy. I may go way out of the box and use a red-wine yeast to see what that brings.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 13, 2019)

4score said:


> I may go way out of the box and use a red-wine yeast to see what that brings.



That's crazy talk!


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## mainshipfred (Aug 22, 2019)

Just found out the Virginia Viognier won't be ready until mid to late September. @NorCal is this what you are seeing in your area? My commercial friend recommended BA11 for fruit characteristics and 58W3 for structure, I just have to determine the 3rd. He told me to leave it on the skins for at least 3-4 hours and make sure I do a sur lie aging. The funny part is when I told him I was going to do a cold fermentation his response was "how else would you do it", as if all home winemakers have glycol cooled tanks. Fortunately my cellar is kept at 55 and I have a chest freezer with an inkbird.


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## porkchopmessiah (Aug 23, 2019)

Im so curious about this grape, have never had it, nor seen it In commercial wines....is this common enough to find when the cali grapes co.e to the local supply stores? Since spring I've been trying to find growers in nj and the hudson valley that will sell the people like us, with no success....any ideas or tips?


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 23, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Just found out the Virginia Viognier won't be ready until mid to late September. @NorCal is this what you are seeing in your area? My commercial friend recommended BA11 for fruit characteristics and 58W3 for structure, I just have to determine the 3rd. He told me to leave it on the skins for at least 3-4 hours and make sure I do a sur lie aging. The funny part is when I told him I was going to do a cold fermentation his response was "how else would you do it", as if all home winemakers have glycol cooled tanks. Fortunately my cellar is kept at 55 and I have a chest freezer with an inkbird.



I know I've asked you this before - which winery is he at? I may try and pick up some of his Viognier this weekend. 

I just heard that Gadino Cellars harvested their Pinot Grigio on Monday. 

Need to see if the wife will spring for a glycol chiller. Her birthday is in mid-sept. I think I heard her saying she wanted one. LOL!


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 23, 2019)

porkchopmessiah said:


> Im so curious about this grape, have never had it, nor seen it In commercial wines....is this common enough to find when the cali grapes co.e to the local supply stores? Since spring I've been trying to find growers in nj and the hudson valley that will sell the people like us, with no success....any ideas or tips?



You should be able to find some from CA. It may be only juice buckets or it may be grapes. My first one was a CA juice bucket I purchased from Harford in MD.


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## NorCal (Aug 23, 2019)

I’ll get my first brix reading today, but last year we were harvesting by the end of next week, so pretty confident we are at least a week or two later than last year.

We will be crushing/55 gallon bladder pressing and letting it settle over night, before racking and splitting the juice. 

I’ll ferment “cold” under airlock in my mid 60’s wine-box, supplemented with some ice jugs. Settled on 4600 yeast, sur lie on the fine lees, most likely mlf and hopefully no acid reduction this year. We are getting a half ton of fruit, I hope to net 16-20 gallons, @ 4Score should yield 34-40 gallons.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 23, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> I know I've asked you this before - which winery is he at? I may try and pick up some of his Viognier this weekend.
> 
> I just heard that Gadino Cellars harvested their Pinot Grigio on Monday.
> 
> Need to see if the wife will spring for a glycol chiller. Her birthday is in mid-sept. I think I heard her saying she wanted one. LOL!



He's at Bull Run since last fall. Prior he was at Pearmund and made wine for Effingham and Vint Hill as well. He also made some wines for Bull Run while at Pearmund but I don't know which ones.


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## NorCal (Aug 24, 2019)

The brix reading came in at 22. We are going to harvest on Friday (1 week later). For the style of wine I like to make, I would prefer 24-25 (we were at 23.7 last year) but the grapes will be what they will be next Friday.


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## stickman (Aug 26, 2019)

Here's a Voignier fermentation presentation, it's focused on the lower end early to drink style, but still worth viewing. They seem to be indicating that the fresh style of Voignier may benefit from ascorbic acid addition and CO2 protection when possible.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 26, 2019)

stickman said:


> Here's a Voignier fermentation presentation, it's focused on the lower end early to drink style, but still worth viewing. They seem to be indicating that the fresh style of Voignier may benefit from ascorbic acid addition and CO2 protection when possible.



Interesting, a lot more attention to detail than I'm used to. The ascorbic acid is interesting though. I've never seen anything that ever addressed it.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 26, 2019)

stickman said:


> Here's a Voignier fermentation presentation, it's focused on the lower end early to drink style, but still worth viewing. They seem to be indicating that the fresh style of Voignier may benefit from ascorbic acid addition and CO2 protection when possible.



Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I hadn't thought about enzymes or Opti-White, but will look into that. For my stylistic goals, I won't be using wood or MLB, but it's interesting reading that as almost SOP. I did head over to the Winery at Bull Run yesterday. Fortunately got there before it got busy. As there was plenty of room at the tasting bar and I noticed they were pouring the 2017 Petite Manseng (I'm hoping to get some of those grapes from them as well), I did a tasting and bought a bottle of the Viognier. Notes are attached. As you'll see, the Viognier is aged 20% in Acacia. There are definitely notes of the wood on the nose and palate. Fred mentioned his friend (the winemaker), also suggested Sur Lie. I get that on the nose and palate as well. It certainly adds a layer of complexity to the wine, but for my taste, I feel it subdues the usual tropical/floral/citrus profile that made me start to really enjoy Viognier in the first place. It'll be really interesting to see what we come up with and how you can take the grapes in different directions. I'm enjoying that bottle of Viognier right now, by the way.


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## NorCal (Aug 27, 2019)

Just got a text from the farmer. Sorry, the yield is lower than expected and no grapes available for you. We just confirmed with him on Friday, dropped the macrobin off on Sunday (1 hour drive) and today is Tuesday, so it’s frustrating.

@4score is looking for a last minute source or perhaps another white variety, we shall see.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 28, 2019)

Hope he is able to find another source, I was looking forward to the competition.


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## Chuck E (Aug 28, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Been doing a little research on the yeasts. Rhone 4600 and QA 23 are two of my goto's for whites. But I was also thinking of 71B. Whatever I finally decide on it will be fermented using 3 different yeasts, MLF I really haven't yet considered.



I used Rhone 4600 in my Spring 2019 Chilean batch. I am very optimistic about it at this point.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 28, 2019)

NorCal said:


> Just got a text from the farmer. Sorry, the yield is lower than expected and no grapes available for you. We just confirmed with him on Friday, dropped the macrobin off on Sunday (1 hour drive) and today is Tuesday, so it’s frustrating.
> 
> @4score is looking for a last minute source or perhaps another white variety, we shall see.



That's ridiculous!


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## NorCal (Aug 30, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> That's ridiculous!


It is. He was apologetic and I get we are low on the totem pole of customers, but still. 

I think @4score scored some Chenin Blanc. I’ve only had one bottle, the one I bought a few nights ago to see what the varietal tastes like. The bottle I had was very similar to the Viognier in this area. So we’re in.

Here is the funny thing. This is from a big time commercial (650 acres) vineyard. I’m not sure they know we are little ‘ol home winemakers. Our plan was to get 1,000 pounds, but it was $1,400 for a half ton and $1,550 for a ton, so all of a sudden we are making twice as much wine. We found some others local winemakers/consumers to go in on it, so I think we have a plan.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 30, 2019)

I did a Chenin Blanc from S. Africa this past spring from a juice bucket. Goes very nice with spicy Asian food. A year or so ago I went to a S. African wine tasting and they paired it with sunflower seeds. It seemed like the perfect snack to go with it.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 8, 2019)

The Viognier grapes came in this past Friday but I had to go out of town so the winery offered to crush and press them and put them in their reefer truck and sell me the juice. I'll be picking up the two buckets tomorrow for @Boatboy24 and I.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 8, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> The Viognier grapes came in this past Friday but I had to go out of town so the winery offered to crush and press them and put them in their reefer truck and sell me the juice. I'll be picking up the two buckets tomorrow for @Boatboy24 and I.



Let me know what time works to swing by, Fred.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 8, 2019)

Boatboy24 said:


> Let me know what time works to swing by, Fred.



I'll probably pick it up around 4 and be in the shop til 6 or so


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## NorCal (Sep 9, 2019)

My timing is really bad, or perfect depending on how you look at it. Our ton of Chenin Blanc is being harvested Friday night for a Saturday morning pick up. I’ll be out of town, so @4score has graciously agreed to destem and press the grapes without me. I’ll pick up the juice Sunday morning. I’m sure there will be some offsetting labor favors coming this season.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 9, 2019)

NorCal said:


> My timing is really bad, or perfect depending on how you look at it. Our ton of Chenin Blanc is being harvested Friday night for a Saturday morning pick up. I’ll be out of town, so @4score has graciously agreed to destem and press the grapes without me. I’ll pick up the juice Sunday morning. I’m sure there will be some offsetting labor favors coming this season.



Just picked up our Viognier, acid a little lower than I would have like at 4.09 pH but the brix is fine at 22.9. I think I'll take the pH down to 3.65 or so. It's a little more than I like to adjust but I also like a more acid white.


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## NorCal (Sep 9, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Just picked up our Viognier, acid a little lower than I would have like at 4.09 pH but the brix is fine at 22.9. I think I'll take the pH down to 3.65 or so. It's a little more than I like to adjust but I also like a more acid white.



We have a problem retaining acid in the grapes, but I have to say I’ve never seen grapes reach a pH of 4.0 below 23 brix.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 9, 2019)

NorCal said:


> We have a problem retaining acid in the grapes, but I have to say I’ve never seen grapes reach a pH of 4.0 below 23 brix.



I have to say I was a little disappointed.


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## ceeaton (Sep 9, 2019)

@NorCal, I noticed with a kit Viognier that is now 4 years+ old that the apparent acidity, which my TA showed was not high at all (my notes say a TA of 4.3 g/L, though that was early in my winemaking career) really died down from even my two year old wine. The TA didn't fall back, but I think the fruitiness of the varietal, which I perceived as acidity, has muted a bit, which it should with a 4 year old white wine. It died back enough that my wife and SIL like it very much now, where before they took a sip and said "not my kind of wine". Just throwing in my two cents worth in that you may get more of what you are looking for with a wine aged a little bit more. I like most of my whites at 1-2 years old, so this grape seems to be a bit of an aberration to me.


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## NorCal (Sep 12, 2019)

ceeaton said:


> @NorCal, I noticed with a kit Viognier that is now 4 years+ old that the apparent acidity, which my TA showed was not high at all (my notes say a TA of 4.3 g/L, though that was early in my winemaking career) really died down from even my two year old wine. The TA didn't fall back, but I think the fruitiness of the varietal, which I perceived as acidity, has muted a bit, which it should with a 4 year old white wine. It died back enough that my wife and SIL like it very much now, where before they took a sip and said "not my kind of wine". Just throwing in my two cents worth in that you may get more of what you are looking for with a wine aged a little bit more. I like most of my whites at 1-2 years old, so this grape seems to be a bit of an aberration to me.


I try to consume my whites before the next year’s are ready to bottle; 15-20 gallons per year.


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## NorCal (Sep 12, 2019)

NorCal said:


> My timing is really bad, or perfect depending on how you look at it. Our ton of Chenin Blanc is being harvested Friday night for a Saturday morning pick up. I’ll be out of town, so @4score has graciously agreed to destem and press the grapes without me. I’ll pick up the juice Sunday morning. I’m sure there will be some offsetting labor favors coming this season.


Harvest got pushed back, due to the brix not being there, looks like I’m back in the work crew.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 24, 2019)

Had the Viognier in the cooler fermenting for almost 2 weeks. Took it out two days ago to let it finish a little warmer as recommended. Never adjusted the brix and took the pH down to 3.58. Today I combined the BA11 and 58W3 as both were down to .990. I have a new 25 liter barrel that I plan on using only for whites once I neutralize it a bit. I may try it on the Viognier but will have to top it up with either a store bought Viognier or I have some Chenin Blanc.


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## NorCal (Sep 24, 2019)

The 1 ton Chenin Blanc harvest is this coming Saturday, no matter what. We ( @4score ) put our foot down and said, regardless of brix, we want it picked on Friday night for a Saturday morning pickup. This is from a huge vineyard and we decided to have them supply cardboard macrobins @$35 each vs having to drop ours off 45 minutes or so away. It will also help not getting lost in the shuffle.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 24, 2019)

NorCal said:


> The 1 ton Chenin Blanc harvest is this coming Saturday, no matter what. We ( @4score ) put our foot down and said, regardless of brix, we want it picked on Friday night for a Saturday morning pickup. This is from a huge vineyard and we decided to have them supply cardboard macrobins @$35 each vs having to drop ours off 45 minutes or so away. It will also help not getting lost in the shuffle.



Last year the Virginia harvest was so bad wineries were allowed in import a greater amount of fruit. Much of it came from California. It was all sent in cardboard bins but they were 1/2 ton bin. Helping out at wineries I can't tell you how many of these I cut up and put on the pallets.


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## NorCal (Sep 25, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Last year the Virginia harvest was so bad wineries were allowed in import a greater amount of fruit. Much of it came from California. It was all sent in cardboard bins but they were 1/2 ton bin. Helping out at wineries I can't tell you how many of these I cut up and put on the pallets.


Yea, that’s what these are; 1/2 ton bins. Quite convenient.


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2019)

Early morning and we found our vineyard.



They were machine picked by this monster and I have to say that the pick was really clean.




45 minute drive, the grapes were crushed and pressed with a 55 gallon bladder press.



Overall, I’d give the grapes a B- or C+. The machine does not discriminate between good and bad clusters. After the crush you can see how many off colored solids were in the crush and how that settled just a few hours later.





Total gross out of the 1600 pounds was 107 gallons. I’ll rack and inoculate tomorrow.


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## stickman (Sep 29, 2019)

@NorCal the settling juice looks good. Did you end up using any sulfite at crush or are you going with the "brown juice club"? I'm also curious about the acid and pH, Chenin Blanc is reportedly one of the grape varieties that's able to retain better acidity in warm conditions.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 29, 2019)

Timely question, in 2017 I made a Sauv Blanc from grapes and don't remember the color of the must. This year I made a Viognier and Petit Manseng from grapes and the must was as @NorCal's is pictured. The brown went away after fermentation and they are clearing nicely without any added sulfites. But my real question is with a rose I'm trying to make. It's going to be a 50/50 blend of Sangiovese and Nebbiola. The juice at crush for both of them was also brown and I had a rough time knowing how much of each to use and what the finish color would be. The must is pinkish so it will be a learning curve.


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2019)

The brix is 21.5, pH 3.4, which I think is unusual for this variety of grape, but it has been an unusual growing season. I am not going to do any adjustment. 

My protocol on whites is to destem, crush, press, SO2 50 ppm and let the juice settle over night. I then rack off the good juice and ferment only that. I’ll take the remaining brown juice, put it in a carboy and throw it in the refrigerator for a few days, which will then net me more usable juice, which gets tossed into the active ferment. Perhaps overly cautious, but I think It goes a long way at making clean wine and preventing H2S.

I’m using Rhone 4600 yeast, because it was recommended for Viognier and I bought it, so hope it works well with Chenin. I’ll be using FermK and GoFerm and since the season is so late, it will be a nice cold ferment in the garage, which will be colder than my wine box.


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> Timely question, in 2017 I made a Sauv Blanc from grapes and don't remember the color of the must. This year I made a Viognier and Petit Manseng from grapes and the must was as @NorCal's is pictured. The brown went away after fermentation and they are clearing nicely without any added sulfites. But my real question is with a rose I'm trying to make. It's going to be a 50/50 blend of Sangiovese and Nebbiola. The juice at crush for both of them was also brown and I had a rough time knowing how much of each to use and what the finish color would be. The must is pinkish so it will be a learning curve.


On my Roses, I always shoot as light as possible. You can always add a little red wine later to make it pinker, but you cannot take away color and make it less pink.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 29, 2019)

NorCal said:


> On my Roses, I always shoot as light as possible. You can always add a little red wine later to make it pinker, but you cannot take away color and make it less pink.



I know it varies with the varietal but typically how long to you let it stay on the skins?


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2019)

mainshipfred said:


> I know it varies with the varietal but typically how long to you let it stay on the skins?


The only roses I’ve made were by pulling juice from a red ferment (versus picking early at lower brix, higher pH). I literally scoop the juice out ASAP as I’m crushing, not letting it stay on the skins. I’ll let the juice settle, rack, adjust brix and pH and ferment the clean juice. I won’t add back any red wine from the red ferment for color until the rose fermentation has been completed. Not sure if that is the “right” way, but it’s worked for me.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 29, 2019)

NorCal said:


> The only roses I’ve made were by pulling juice from a red ferment (versus picking early at lower brix, higher pH). I literally scoop the juice out ASAP as I’m crushing, not letting it stay on the skins. I’ll let the juice settle, rack, adjust brix and pH and ferment the clean juice. I won’t add back any red wine from the red ferment for color until the rose fermentation has been completed. Not sure if that is the “right” way, but it’s worked for me.



Thanks, I kept them on the skins for 8 hours and used the free run. The skins got returned for making the red version. It's called something but I forget what it is.


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2019)

Saignee...which means bleeding in French


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## mainshipfred (Feb 5, 2020)

2 weeks from now the Viognier will have spent 3 months in the fairly neutral barrel and has a very slight hint of oak. It once had a wonderful nose and nice crisp taste that appears to be fading. There are no flaws I can detect so I'm hoping it's just the natural progression of the wine and these qualities will come back again. I think I'll keep with the plan and put it in glass in 2 weeks unless someone feels it should stay in the barrel longer. The winery I got the grapes from will not bottle until May.


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## Chuck E (Feb 5, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> 2 weeks from now the Viognier will have spent 3 months in the fairly neutral barrel and has a very slight hint of oak. It once had a wonderful nose and nice crisp taste that appears to be fading. There are no flaws I can detect so I'm hoping it's just the natural progression of the wine and these qualities will come back again. I think I'll keep with the plan and put it in glass in 2 weeks unless someone feels it should stay in the barrel longer. The winery I got the grapes from will not bottle until May.



I did not oak mine. It went right to glass. I am pretty pleased with it so far. I think the oak should retreat a bit after it's in glass.


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## mainshipfred (Feb 6, 2020)

Chuck E said:


> I did not oak mine. It went right to glass. I am pretty pleased with it so far. I think the oak should retreat a bit after it's in glass.



Yes it could be the oak although it is very slight. I still have high hopes for it. The Petite Manseng spent a month in the barrel and I do believe it will go back in. I have 10 gallons of it for a 25 liter barrel so I have some wiggle room with the time it spends.


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## NorCal (Mar 8, 2020)

@4score and I made Viognier in 2018 and we were going to do it again in 2019, but the vineyard de-committed the grapes days before we were suppose to get our bin, due to his poor yields. I reached out early to see if we can get Viognier this year, as it’s been a family favorite. We should know early next week, but it’s looking pretty good.
I will need to re-read this post and gather up my plans, if we get the green light.


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## NorCal (Mar 26, 2020)

Viognier in 2020 is a go. The vineyard committed to three things. 

- two full bins of grapes (~1,800 lbs)
- first quality commercial grapes
- he promises not to decommit 

@4score and I will split the grapes, I will need to find some willing winemakers to take a portion of my take on the juice. I will re-read all the posts and get my game plan together.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Viognier in 2020 is a go. The vineyard committed to three things.
> 
> - two full bins of grapes (~1,800 lbs)
> - first quality commercial grapes
> ...



I plan on Viognier being a yearly staple. Especially since I think the 19 Viognier is going to turn out well. I haven't tasted it since I bottled it and it was ever changing at bottling time. So I guess the East/West competition is going to have to be the 2020 vintage. I do plan on sending you a bottle or 2 of the 19 anyway when I feel it's ready.


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## CDrew (Mar 26, 2020)

Think it’s possible without refrigerated fermentation?


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Think it’s possible without refrigerated fermentation?



Hate to even ask but ???????


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## CDrew (Mar 26, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Hate to even ask but ???????



Sorry I was vague. I was thinking ahead, that if I bought some of NorCal's Viognier I don't have anyway to maintain a cooler temp during fermentation. Not sure if that's ideal as I've only made red wine to date at garage temperature. I want to make some white wine in 2020. And since NorCal lives within 30 minutes of me, and he will have excess grapes, it naturally got me thinking....

So I posted without enough forethought. Likely not the last time!


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2020)

CDrew said:


> Sorry I was vague. I was thinking ahead, that if I bought some of NorCal's Viognier I don't have anyway to maintain a cooler temp during fermentation. Not sure if that'sideal as I've only made red wine to date at garage temperature. I want to make some white wine in 2020. And since NorCal lives within 30 minutes of me, and he will have excess grapes, it naturally got me thinking....
> 
> So I posted without enough forethought. Likely not the last time!



Whew!!! Thought I could have just been a bone head. I made my first white a Sauv Blanc from grapes in 2018 but the grapes came in really bad and it didn't turn out so well. In 19 when we were supposed to have the East/West competition and I made the Viognier and Petite Manseng. Whites are kind of fun and you don't have to wait as long to drink them. Fortunately I do have the means to do a cool ferment. I don't remember but I think Norcal does it in his garage as well.


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## NorCal (Mar 26, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> I plan on Viognier being a yearly staple. Especially since I think the 19 Viognier is going to turn out well. I haven't tasted it since I bottled it and it was ever changing at bottling time. So I guess the East/West competition is going to have to be the 2020 vintage. I do plan on sending you a bottle or 2 of the 19 anyway when I feel it's ready.


Yes, let’s do it! What were the particulars of your 2019 Vio?


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 27, 2020)

I plan to trade with Fred (my '19 isn't bottled yet), as our Viognier was crushed and pressed together, but we then took our own paths. Would love to do a nationwide compare.


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## NorCal (Mar 27, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> I plan to trade with Fred (my '19 isn't bottled yet), as our Viognier was crushed and pressed together, but we then took our own paths. Would love to do a nationwide compare.


Would you guys share your brix,pH, ferm temps, yeast,oak?,cold stabilizin, etc?


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## mainshipfred (Mar 27, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Would you guys share your brix,pH, ferm temps, yeast,oak?,cold stabilizin, etc?



Brix was 22.9 and not changed
I had 2 pH readings 2.09 is what the winery gave me at crush but prior adding the yeast I read 4.20 which was about a week after crush.
My target pH was 3.65 but somehow it ended up at 3.48. probably because it was my initial reading that was off.
Only used 2 yeasts BA11 and 58W3 although misprinted the labels and it says BA11 and Cotes de Blanc.
Fermented in the cooler at 55* for 2 weeks then let it finish out of the cooler for another week to prevent a stuck finish.
Both yeasts finished at .990.
Added Lysozyme to prevent MLF.
Aged 4 weeks in a new, mostly neutral barrel. Even though it was neutral it did pick up some color from the toast.
Filtered with 1 micron pads.
Bottled about 3 weeks ago.
I only had 6 gallons for a 25 liter barrel so it contains small portions of peach, Sauv Blanc, Chenin Blanc and Petite Manseng to make up the difference.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 27, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Would you guys share your brix,pH, ferm temps, yeast,oak?,cold stabilizin, etc?



I had 4.01 pH at pitching - targeted 3.7 with Tartaric adjustments, but didn't get there. Last adjustment (a few weeks back) brought me to 3.64. Haven't decided if I'll try to adjust further. 
Brix was the same as Freds - 22.9. I didn't adjust. 
Split the batch for fermentation and used BA11 and QA23.
Fermentation was done at ambient temps - mid 60's in my basement.
Combined split batches back for secondary and it finished at 0.992.
No Oak
Added Lysozyme after fermentation to inhibit MLF
I back sweetened slightly. Need to re-measure, but I think it was brought to just under 1.000.


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## NorCal (Mar 27, 2020)

You guys are just like @4score and I. Two very different wines from the same grapes. Both sound excellent. Looking forward to this season.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 28, 2020)

NorCal said:


> You guys are just like @4score and I. Two very different wines from the same grapes. Both sound excellent. Looking forward to this season.



This year I'm going to try to get grapes from at least 2 different vineyards. Not sure yet if I'll field blend them or ferment them separately. My thoughts are to try to make a reserve and maybe throw in a few other varietals in the blend. BTW, it appears @CDrew may want to be in the competition as well and I'll see if I can get one or two more from our area.


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## Paolo_pin (Mar 28, 2020)

DoctorCAD said:


> IMO, a viognier should not be made sur lee. Lots of commercial viogniers taste too much like a Chardonnay to me. I prefer the clean and crisp taste instead of the buttery taste.
> 
> Oh, and zero oak.


Hello,
are you sure the buttery taste was not due to dyacetil formation? This happens during MLF and not just because you set your wine on the lees. Lees will help indeed in a further complete extraction of therpene volatile compounds. Take care.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 28, 2020)

Paolo_pin said:


> Hello,
> are you sure the buttery taste was not due to dyacetil formation? This happens during MLF and not just because you set your wine on the lees. Lees will help indeed in a further complete extraction of therpene volatile compounds. Take care.



This is my understanding as well.


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## sour_grapes (Mar 28, 2020)

But aging _sur lie_ can contribute to the "fatter" style that is associated with MLF'ed white wines. A little mannoproteins never hurt anyone!


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## Paolo_pin (Apr 4, 2020)

sour_grapes said:


> But aging _sur lie_ can contribute to the "fatter" style that is associated with MLF'ed white wines. A little mannoproteins never hurt anyone!


Indeed, as fat style is related to mannoprotein content. But MLF fermentation is not a obligate "happening" during _sur lie. _It just can happen either not.


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## NorCal (Jun 15, 2020)

I opened a 2018 Viognier and 2019 Chenin Blanc that I made this weekend and tried both side by side. I intervened on both wines to reduce the acidity. The Vio I added potassium carbonate, the Chenin I went out of my way to cold crash the wine. Tasting side by side, I think I went too far on the Vio and it seems to be lacking to me now, when compared to the Chenin. If I have to reduce the acid on the Vio this year, which I expect to, it will be through cold crashing.


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## Boatboy24 (Jun 15, 2020)

I'm about to bottle my 2019 Virginia Viognier (I think). Did a racking about two weeks ago and haven't seen any sediment since, so I think it's ready. I haven't filtered any wines in a while, but I think I want to filter this one and the Petite Manseng from the same source. I need to see if I have a 1 micron filter and would do both.

@mainshipfred : I owe you at least a bottle of each.


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## ibglowin (Jun 15, 2020)

What pH did the Viognier settle in at the end?



NorCal said:


> I opened a 2018 Viognier and 2019 Chenin Blanc that I made this weekend and tried both side by side. I intervened on both wines to reduce the acidity. The Vio I added potassium carbonate, the Chenin I went out of my way to cold crash the wine. Tasting side by side, I think I went too far on the Vio and it seems to be lacking to me now, when compared to the Chenin. If I have to reduce the acid on the Vio this year, which I expect to, it will be through cold crashing.


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## mainshipfred (Jun 16, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> I'm about to bottle my 2019 Virginia Viognier (I think). Did a racking about two weeks ago and haven't seen any sediment since, so I think it's ready. I haven't filtered any wines in a while, but I think I want to filter this one and the Petite Manseng from the same source. I need to see if I have a 1 micron filter and would do both.
> 
> @mainshipfred : I owe you at least a bottle of each.



Not sure what filter you have but I have 1 and. 5 pads for the Mini Jet you're welcome to. Also, I bottled my Vio and PM and 2 Roses a few months ago but haven't tried any of them yet.


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## NorCal (Jun 16, 2020)

ibglowin said:


> What pH did the Viognier settle in at the end?


I went and checked my notes and I’m not sure I ever recorded it. I have a few bottles left, so it would be easy enough to check.


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## ibglowin (Jun 16, 2020)

It would be interesting to see what its sitting at since it now seems flat/flabby. If you think about it next time you open one, stick a meter in that glass and take a note for next time.



NorCal said:


> I went and checked my notes and I’m not sure I ever recorded it. I have a few bottles left, so it would be easy enough to check.


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## NorCal (Jun 20, 2020)

ibglowin said:


> It would be interesting to see what its sitting at since it now seems flat/flabby. If you think about it next time you open one, stick a meter in that glass and take a note for next time.


Found my notes, ended up at 3.5.


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## ibglowin (Jun 20, 2020)

Pretty good pH for a Viognier. 



NorCal said:


> Found my notes, ended up at 3.5.


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## NorCal (Aug 14, 2020)

It is game on, albeit a year later! Dropping bins off Saturday, Viognoir harvest on Sunday. We will do a final brix check on Saturday to make sure, but we should be close to our 24 brix target. @Boatboy24 and @mainshipfred are you doing Vio this year?

There are three people splitting the 2,000 pounds of grapes. We will haul the two macrobins back in our pick-up trucks, pitch fork on a chute into a destemmer. The destemmer will then collect in a 5 gallon bucket, which will go right into the press. The press will then go into another 5 gallon bucket, where the juice will be pumped into containers that people will transport the juice in. Pics to follow.


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## 4score (Aug 14, 2020)

We are having record-setting heat out here so grapes are going nuts! We'll have to work fast to have any chance of keeping the juice cool.  I have a new yeast to try, it should be fun.


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## Boatboy24 (Aug 14, 2020)

NorCal said:


> @Boatboy24 and @mainshipfred are you doing Vio this year?



I'd like to. Pretty happy with last year's.


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## NorCal (Aug 14, 2020)

This vineyard owner is being flaky. He is saying after a second look that the grapes are too inconsistent to pick now and we should wait a few more days. A few days? @4score and I are going to drive out there to drop off bins and go have a first hand look with the vineyard owner. We'll post some pics. Likely harvest day is Wednesday or Friday.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 14, 2020)

NorCal said:


> It is game on, albeit a year later! Dropping bins off Saturday, Viognoir harvest on Sunday. We will do a final brix check on Saturday to make sure, but we should be close to our 24 brix target. @Boatboy24 and @mainshipfred are you doing Vio this year?
> 
> There are three people splitting the 2,000 pounds of grapes. We will haul the two macrobins back in our pick-up trucks, pitch fork on a chute into a destemmer. The destemmer will then collect in a 5 gallon bucket, which will go right into the press. The press will then go into another 5 gallon bucket, where the juice will be pumped into containers that people will transport the juice in. Pics to follow.



I'd like to but I'll be out of town few a few days next week and don't haven't asked about the harvest yet. I'll find out tomorrow.


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## NorCal (Aug 15, 2020)

We visited the vineyard and walked the rows. I understand why the vineyard owner stories weren’t making sense. We was saying the brix are at 22 (I confirmed) but if we wait until Friday with 6 straight days of 100 degrees, there wouldn’t be anything left. Why? He has clusters that are at 25 and other fruit that is at 18. The 18 fruit is all second growth. In a week I agree those 25 brix clusters will not be as good as they are today. So, our best choice is to pick sooner rather than later. We will have some sorting to do or decide to include the green fruit. Forgot to take pictures.
its frustrating that we have not found a good source for quality white grapes in our area.


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## 4score (Aug 15, 2020)

NorCal said:


> We visited the vineyard and walked the rows. I understand why the vineyard owner stories weren’t making sense. We was saying the brix are at 22 (I confirmed) but if we wait until Friday with 6 straight days of 100 degrees, there wouldn’t be anything left. Why? He has clusters that are at 25 and other fruit that is at 18. The 18 fruit is all second growth. In a week I agree those 25 brix clusters will not be as good as they are today. So, our best choice is to pick sooner rather than later. We will have some sorting to do or decide to include the green fruit. Forgot to take pictures.
> its frustrating that we have not found a good source for quality white grapes in our area.





I got you covered Norcal. Snapped this one.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 17, 2020)

NorCal said:


> It is game on, albeit a year later! Dropping bins off Saturday, Viognoir harvest on Sunday. We will do a final brix check on Saturday to make sure, but we should be close to our 24 brix target. @Boatboy24 and @mainshipfred are you doing Vio this year?
> 
> There are three people splitting the 2,000 pounds of grapes. We will haul the two macrobins back in our pick-up trucks, pitch fork on a chute into a destemmer. The destemmer will then collect in a 5 gallon bucket, which will go right into the press. The press will then go into another 5 gallon bucket, where the juice will be pumped into containers that people will transport the juice in. Pics to follow.


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## mainshipfred (Aug 17, 2020)

Just found out our Viognier and Petit Manseng won't be ready until mid September so we are in.


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## NorCal (Aug 19, 2020)

A long day. We got shorted grapes again, 1,500 vs. 2,000 pounds promised and we had to sort through some bad fruit and leaves. Overall however, I think the juice is one of the cleanest we’ve ever. the base root of the Viognier is muscat that they had grafted Viognier on to. There were some random muscat clusters and we told the farmer to throw them in as well. I’d say 5% in total if that. May add some interesting notes.


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## 4score (Aug 19, 2020)

What a long day when you drive over 2 hours (out and back) to get grapes, crush grapes, press grapes - plus set-up and the dreaded clean up. The crew rocked it today. Like a machine! This Vio will be excellent!


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## NorCal (Aug 20, 2020)

The total was an unmeasured 1500 pounds, my take was 25%, or 375 pounds of grapes. I left with 16 or so gallons of juice, which means we didn’t hit our yield goal and/or we didn’t start with 1500 pounds of grapes. The juice separated nicely after sitting for 30 hours. I have 14 gallons that was inoculated in the 60 liter (15.8) Spiedel and a 2.5 gallon UPS colored carboy in the fridge, hoping to yield more juice, that I’ll add to the ferment.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 27, 2020)

Going to be getting my Viognier Tuesday. As of Friday the numbers were 23 brix and 3.37 pH, hope it doesn't change too much. @Boatboy24 they have plenty but they also want $1.60/lb if your interested. I know juice buckets and Cali grapes are way less expensive I just want to make Virginia wines.


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## Boatboy24 (Sep 27, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> Going to be getting my Viognier Tuesday. As of Friday the numbers were 23 brix and 3.37 pH, hope it doesn't change too much. @Boatboy24 they have plenty but they also want $1.60/lb if your interested. I know juice buckets and Cali grapes are way less expensive I just want to make Virginia wines.



That is extremely tempting. I'm happy with last years and want to do another. Will decide today and let you know. Don't know if you saw the email from WW about the grapes from Delta, but it has me pretty worried.


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## mainshipfred (Sep 29, 2020)

They are not picking until tomorrow. Today's number are 3.30 pH, 23.8 brix, 9.7 TA. I really don't like my whites that high in alcohol. Would any of you consider watering it back.


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## CDrew (Sep 29, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> They are not picking until tomorrow. Today's number are 3.30 pH, 23.8 brix, 9.7 TA. I really don't like my whites that high in alcohol. Would any of you consider watering it back.



No.

I did a random cellar sample just now of the white wine that we have-mostly SB and Semillion and a few Reislings. The low was 13.2% and the high was 14.5%. I think you're good. But full disclaimer, while I've drunk a bunch of white wine, I've never made one. Good luck.


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## NorCal (Sep 29, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> They are not picking until tomorrow. Today's number are 3.30 pH, 23.8 brix, 9.7 TA. I really don't like my whites that high in alcohol. Would any of you consider watering it back.



I pulled my white making history on whites, so you can see what the decisions I have made. I must say though that I'd rather have a flabby white than a crisp white, so I'm ok with a little more alcohol and less acid. Note: the grapes were split between @4score and I.



YearVarietalDate HarvestPoundsBrixpH2020Viognoir, 5% muscat8/18/2020150022.53.42019Chenin Blanc9/28/2019160022.03.62018Voignier8/30/2018100023.73.52017Chardonnay9/2/2017117525.6 adj to 24.53.32016Chardonnay8/20/201690023.53.2


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## mainshipfred (Sep 29, 2020)

NorCal said:


> I pulled my white making history on whites, so you can see what the decisions I have made. I must say though that I'd rather have a flabby white than a crisp white, so I'm ok with a little more alcohol and less acid. Note: the grapes were split between @4score and I.
> 
> 
> 
> YearVarietalDate HarvestPoundsBrixpH2020Viognoir, 5% muscat8/18/2020150022.53.42019Chenin Blanc9/28/2019160022.03.62018Voignier8/30/2018100023.73.52017Chardonnay9/2/2017117525.6 adj to 24.53.32016Chardonnay8/20/201690023.53.2



Thanks, when I pick up the grapes I'll ask the winemaker what his approach will be.


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## NorCal (Nov 28, 2020)

Following up on this year’s Vio progress. I decided to not do mlf and recently racked. I took a sample (it was at the bottom of the carboy, so got some sediment) and put it in the fridge to see what kind of tartrate fallout I would have. After 4 days I had my answer.


I will rotate the carboys in the outside fridge to hopefully eliminate this from happening in the bottle.


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## 4score (Nov 28, 2020)

It will be interesting to compare our Viogniers. We "did" add ML, although after 3 months it looks like it's only about 20% complete. The thing is, we do LOVE the taste and nose on this wine today. Wondering about stopping it. That little bit of Muscat is an outstanding addition. This wine is probably the best and most interesting wine at this early age that we've ever made! Very excited about it. Although, it could all go to hell in the next 6 months! LOL


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## AaronSC (Nov 30, 2020)

That's interesting what you say about the small amount of Muscat in the Viognier adding a lot. I was just planning out the potential white blends to try with the base wines that I have (Roussanne (31 gallons), Viognier (21 gallons) and Muscat (22 gallons)) and base Viognier with a bit of Muscat wasn't in there. I'll need to assess this too. My main Viognier blend was going to be about 75% Viognier/25% Roussanne, but 5% muscat might be nice too. Do you have a sense of how much muscat actually got through?

-Aaron


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## 4score (Nov 30, 2020)

It's hard to say exactly. We did tour the vines and saw the Muscat growth on some of the vines. I would say 5 to 10 percent is all. Sounds like you are set up very nicely for some great blending! Good luck.


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## NorCal (Dec 6, 2020)

10 days in the fridge. Some pretty big fallout. I’ll rotate the other carboys in.


Different lighting.


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## NorCal (Dec 9, 2020)

The group that went in on the Viognier (3 parties) are going to do a COVID safe Vio tasting over the Christmas break. We will each swap wine and then taste over Zoom. Should be interesting as we have each taken different paths, which I’ll detail. Example, I did not mlf, but cold stabilized. I believe both the other parties, one of which is @4score went through mlf, but is not cold stabilized.


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## NorCal (Dec 27, 2020)

Zoom tasting happened. 20 wines to taste was plenty. Half were current barrel tastings. My takeaways: the Viognier’s were different, all good, but none really stood out to me as markedly better than the other. I might do some K-carbonate trials to lower the acidity. I liked the wines from one of the winemakers that has focused efforts on cold soaking. On the reds, I found I liked the wines with less oak.


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