# How to Shoot Thin in the Vineyard



## acorad (Apr 22, 2021)

How to Shoot Thin in the Vineyard!

I hope this is helpful.


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## Cynewulf (Apr 22, 2021)

I was hoping you’d do one on shoot thinning - super helpful as always! It appears that frost may be doing my shoot thinning for me this year, but this will be helpful when the figurative dust settles and I know what the remaining growth looks like over the next couple of weeks. Thanks again for doing these.


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## acorad (Apr 23, 2021)

Cynewulf said:


> I was hoping you’d do one on shoot thinning - super helpful as always! It appears that frost may be doing my shoot thinning for me this year, but this will be helpful when the figurative dust settles and I know what the remaining growth looks like over the next couple of weeks. Thanks again for doing these.



Happy to do the videos Cynewolf, thank you for letting me know they've been helpful!


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## treesaver (Apr 23, 2021)

Thanks for posting that, good info for sure!


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## acorad (Apr 23, 2021)

Thanks treesaver!


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## BarrelMonkey (Apr 23, 2021)

Interesting and helpful, thanks. I don't grow wine grapes but I have a few table grape vines in my garden (Black Monukka) - also a 'Princess' which I just planted this season. I am using cane pruning rather than spurs and have been pruning back to 1 shoot per node; does this make sense or would you leave 2 as for spur pruning? (And, I guess, would you approach table grape pruning differently in general?)


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## acorad (Apr 24, 2021)

Hi BarrelMonkey, I'm not really familiar with your varietals or your local growing conditions, but I would guess that you need roughly 5 - 6 feet of shoot to ripen the grapes on that shoot? So I would try to balance the number of shoots on each vine such that the fruit gets ripe and you don't have shoots that are way too short or way too long. Kind of trial and error over a couple years to get an idea of how many shoots you should let grow on each vine.


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## BarrelMonkey (Apr 24, 2021)

acorad said:


> ...but I would guess that you need roughly 5 - 6 feet of shoot to ripen the grapes on that shoot? So I would try to balance the number of shoots on each vine such that the fruit gets ripe and you don't have shoots that are way too short or way too long. Kind of trial and error over a couple years to get an idea of how many shoots you should let grow on each vine.



That's a good plan... last year one of my vines produced lots of good fruit whereas the other was disappointing. It's hard to directly compare since they're in different locations, but the poor producer did have a lot more nodes and shoots which I should probably have thinned. This will only be my second season so hoping to learn from it as you say.

Unfortunately most of my harvest last year was taken by a hungry raccoon, so that's a separate problem I have to solve!


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## treesaver (Apr 24, 2021)

BM, a cage trap is your friend with a marrading coon. Make sure you don't make your problem someone elses after you catch him. Trash pandas are everywhere, and once they key on your grapes, they won't quit till they eat them all.


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## acorad (Apr 27, 2021)

I also had raccoon problems in the past, so I strung up a couple lines of electric fence. No problems now for years!


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## Handy Andy (May 7, 2021)

After shoot thinning at what length do people cut the tips of vines?? 

I have some vines more vigorous than others, that might get damaged by wind. 



acorad said:


> Hi BarrelMonkey, I'm not really familiar with your varietals or your local growing conditions, but I would guess that you need roughly 5 - 6 feet of shoot to ripen the grapes on that shoot? So I would try to balance the number of shoots on each vine such that the fruit gets ripe and you don't have shoots that are way too short or way too long. Kind of trial and error over a couple years to get an idea of how many shoots you should let grow on each vine.



How many leaves and clusters would you expect to have in a 5-6 foot long shoot??


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## balatonwine (May 7, 2021)

The "rule" is rather simple.

On canes, one shoot every 10 cm on a cane. That is simple and easy to do. I posted about this 8 years ago:









Thinning Buds


I think most every gardener knows that to get the most out of a crop one must from time to time thin some growing plants. Of course “thinning” is the politically correct way of saying s…




stcoemgen.com





On cordons, two shoots on every stub. Stubs should be every 20 cm.

All else is removed. Except..... with cordons it is a good idea to sometimes leave a third shoot (but remove its clusters) even if weak but close to the cordon to prevent long stubs over time. Thus with cordons it can be more complicated.


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## Handy Andy (May 9, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> On cordons, two shoots on every stub. Stubs should be every 20 cm.
> 
> All else is removed. Except..... *with cordons it is a good idea to sometimes leave a third shoot (but remove its clusters) even if weak but close to the cordon to prevent long stubs over time.* Thus with cordons it can be more complicated.



How many clusters should I leave on a shoot assuming it has more than one cluster?

I think you answered these questions already 
Should shoots with no clusters be removed or left in tact? If they are closest to the cordon would it be a good idea to cut them back to a couple of leaves to allow more light into the shoots with clusters?


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## balatonwine (May 9, 2021)

Handy Andy said:


> How many clusters should I leave on a shoot assuming it has more than one cluster?
> 
> I think you answered these questions already
> Should shoots with no clusters be removed or left in tact? If they are closest to the cordon would it be a good idea to cut them back to a couple of leaves to allow more light into the shoots with clusters?



These are very simple questions, and good questions, but ones with extraordinary complicated answers. Give me a little time to think out the best way to reply in a short manner, and I will reply soon.


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## Obbnw (Jun 10, 2021)

balatonwine said:


> These are very simple questions, and good questions, but ones with extraordinary complicated answers. Give me a little time to think out the best way to reply in a short manner, and I will reply soon.



I'm still waiting ; ) just teasing I just looked through this thread today as I am pondering how much "shoot thinning or cluster removal" I should do or if I should I just let them go.

This is year 5 for me.
In year 2 I let most of the vines produce. The wine was excellent and quantity was much more than I expected.
Year 3, season started cold and ended cold, averaged 20 brix when I had to pick due to the earliest hard freeze since I lived here (25 years). Wine sucked.
Year 4, severely thinned some vines, let others go. Saw no correlation between thinned and let go for ripening or quality (fresh grape taste from someone whose sense of taste is not great - so my perception of quality is questionable). Wine seems OK but not as good as year 2.

Year 5, this year. Let them all go wild, they are doing great but the number of potential clusters seems huge. I was going to let them go all year but am second guessing that decision. 

Spent some time reviewing various literature and it seems like the reduced yield equals better quality may be more than half myth. 





Climate here is hot and sunny, elevation is 4600ft, vines are 10' tall and spaced at 4'.

I'll let them go for another 3- 4 weeks, Stuff I read implied it is better to cluster thin after fruit set but before veraison. 

I'm still leaning towards letting them go for the most part (there are a few 5 clusters per shoot and some of the buried clusters that I may pull out).

Not really looking for advice as much as comments on your experience with overcropping/undercropping etc. although I will certainly consider any advice. 

Local 10 day forecast for reference (I suspect the 102 is in the record setting range).


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## Snafflebit (Jun 10, 2021)

Obbnw said:


> Year 5, this year. Let them all go wild, they are doing great but the number of potential clusters seems huge. I was going to let them go all year but am second guessing that decision.
> 
> Spent some time reviewing various literature and it seems like the reduced yield equals better quality may be more than half myth.



I think dropping clusters just to reduce the yield of the vine will not necessarily improve the quality of the wine. Most cluster thinning is done to cull the grape clusters that would not ripen by harvest. Lower yield is more of a side effect of the process


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## Handy Andy (Jun 11, 2021)

I adopted some mildly neglected vineyards last year, with no prior vine growing experience, so am still learning. The vineyards had variously 2, 3, and 4 wires in them + a couple of trellises. It dawned on my power intellect this year that a third wire was required. This has allowed me to open up the vines a little and seperate the shoots from adjacent vines, as some were getting over crowded not allowing light into the canopies. Simple math > shoots with fruit need according to what ive read at least 12 leaves to ripen clusters > leaf spacing 3 to 4 inches and healthy shoots, means the shoots are going to be 36 to 48 inches long above the bottom wire. So I added a 3rd wire to all the two wire systems, increasing their height to a about 5'6 ish. 1.6 ish metres.

I opted to thin shoots, with no grape clusters, back to 4 leaves with a view to improving the shapes of my vines next year. 

Anything looking sick, has been removed. Some of my cordons were damaged and on post mortem with a secateur, showed the cordons appeared to have some form of rot to the core in places, possibly due to the various mildews I adopted last year with my vineyards. 

All is good in my vineyards at the moment, but unlike sky diving, if it goes wrong (so much for skydiving) I should get another chance next year.


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## Obbnw (Jun 11, 2021)

Last year I didn't see an acceleration in ripening for the vines with fewer grapes. I do have one vine that has been a high producer but is always 2 weeks behind most of the others (microclimate/exposure) - maybe I'll thin that one and see if it can catch up.

I have seen both "leaves per shoot" recommendations and total leaf area per production recommendations and have wondered if the leaf area has to be on the same shoot or is more effective on the same shoot or if it doesn't matter as long as the plant has x sf of leaf area per lb of grapes.


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## Snafflebit (Jun 11, 2021)

I am sure that leaf area is what is important, but it would be too hard to calculate. So, a fixed number of functional leaves is a good rule of thumb.


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## Obbnw (Jun 20, 2021)

Well the heat cluster thinned for me, the early blooms set fruit really well but half the later ones shattered in the heat. 

So far it looks like a good year. Curious what the summer heat is going to do. So far June has been record setting hot and the forecast just shows it getting hotter.

I noticed the Malbec didn't shatter as much as the Tempranillo. The Malbec are up against a 7' concrete wall retaining 3' to 5'. I think the wall must temper the heat. 

I've got high hopes for this year.


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## Handy Andy (Jul 19, 2021)

I saw some vineyards yesterday which looked like they had been massacred. Lots of shoots had been removed, exposing all the fruit under the canopies. Only the shoots with grapes on were left.

Does anyone shoot thin prior to or during Veraison? 

If so how much foliage should be removed.


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## Handy Andy (Jul 29, 2021)

Um


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## treesaver (Jul 29, 2021)

Andy, I'm gonna give your question a stab. I did last year and decided against it this year. Several things entered in. When I cut them back last year, I haad a zillion more stubs that hooked on my nets, making it very hard to get the nets on and off. That was the big reason I left them on this year, and the shoots hold the net away from the clusters, so the birds can't help themselves through the net. I will prolly cut them back after harvest, makiing it easier to mow.


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## mbrssmd (Jul 30, 2021)

Andy: As I have learned over the years about things discussed on this forum, there are usually a number of ways to go on any aspect of wine-growing. There is much value in various methods being helpfully described by the good folks on this forum, as it presents options to consider for your own situation -- depending on the unique challenges you are facing, and other factors like time availability, resources, etc.

Where I live there are usually pretty severe disease pressures because of our heat and humidity. Last year's July was an exception -- heat with low humidity days and only about an inch of rain for the entire month. But this year's July has brought over six inches of rain, constant high humidty, and some unusually warm overnight temperatures. The rains have often been ill-timed cloudbursts (e.g., right before sundown so things stay wet for more than 8 hours). This July has had more robust-than-usual shoot and leaf growth, resulting in a thick, dense canopy. Even with diligent regular spraying every 7-10 days (I stick to the basic Mancozeb or Captan, plus sulfur) the mildews, bunch rot, and other usual bad guys can get started in the blink of an eye.

So for my situation, it is imperative to keep making sure there is good air flow around the fruiting zone, as it not only helps with drying off dew and rain but also helps ensure much better coverage with my spraying.

The summer begins with a good shoot thinning, when they are about 5-10 inches long, aiming for a comfortable spacing. In our climate, for red vinifera 3-5 shoots per foot is recommended. The recommended distance between shoots can differ by climate, by whether it is red or white, by whether it is hybrid or vinifera.

After shoot thinning is done, for me it's all about leaf pulling (and sideshoot removal).

Right now, as veraison is about to start here for my vinifera (probably by the end of next week), I have very few, if any leaves near clusters, none below any cluster and probably only a few nearby to the side. I'm pretty ruthless, certainly more so than would be warranted in a climate with less disease pressure. Throughout the summer I also remove any side-shoots in the fruiting zone, and most of them elsewhere, too.

For me, pulling leaves is a gradual process, starting a few weeks ago, post-bloom, with an initial pulling of all the leaves in the fruiting zone on the east side of the vines (so the morning sun can dry off any rain or dew). Then, over the following weeks, I gradually remove leaves (starting with the lowest) on the west side as the fruit begins to set. All summer, on every stroll through the vines (including with a glass of wine in hand...) I find myself yanking a leaf here and a sidewhoot there if it seems to be encroaching too close to a cluster. At the very least you want to avoid leaf 'overlap,' and may want to be more ambitious than that, depending on the situation.

The advice I usually see is to try and keep -- depending on who you read -- anywhere from 12 to 15 to 18 to 20 leaves on a shoot per cluster. Oldtimers who've dealt with this particular climate's heat and humidity tell me that by harvest day they usually have some cluster-bearing shoots that may be down to around 7 to 10 leaves. Other factors to consider is what grapes you are growing and how much (and for how long) you need to think about avoiding sun burn (a long topic unto itself). Trade-offs always seem to be involved.

Again, there are many, many different ways to do it than what I just described. It's all about your particular situation in terms of your climate, nature of disease pressure, types of grapes, and other issues like your time and resource availability.


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## Handy Andy (Jul 31, 2021)

Thank you very much for the very informative replies.


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