# Anyone ever use Wine Stix



## Runningwolf

One of the benefits of trade shows is getting good deals. This company was there selling wine stix and they look really good and designed for carboys. No need to attach a fishing line to them. Unlike oak dust and chips these take a lot longer to extract giving a more complex extraction of “long grain wood” like the Wooden Barrel does. You only use a stix per carboy. The cost is a bit cheaper then spirals. At the show I picked up (20) 2 packs for $5 each.

http://www.winestix.net/?page_id=125


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## ibglowin

Those are *SWEET*! How long are they? I have 2 neutral Vadai's now and those would be sooooo much easier to use than beans.


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## Runningwolf

ibglowin said:


> Those are *SWEET*! How long are they? I have 2 neutral Vadai's now and those would be sooooo much easier to use than beans.


 
Siting in on a workshop by Wooden Valley Winery in California, they said they have gone to almost all neutral barrels and using chips. They are doing this instead of replacing them as often and said some are over ten years old now. Check out the website I posted above, they have stix for carboys and barrels. I was lucky enough to buy them at $5.oo per pack which is about half price. Plus you only need one stick per carboy.


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## GreginND

I have never used the wine sticks.

There is a relatively new cooperage in MN that is making a Honey Comb oak product. It has a honeycomb of holes to allow more surface area. I believe he was the guy who developed the oak spirals and is now doing these honey combs in his own company.


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## ibglowin

I checked out the website and noticed you did get a deal price wise (for some reason, perhaps your charming personality! LOL) I would need to cut it half to fit into my 23L barrels but will be looking into them as soon as my beans start to run low.


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## Runningwolf

Greg I looked at one web site that has them. http://www.lewybrewing.com/2012/03/honeycomb-oak-blackswan-barrels.html
They do look interesting.


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## oldwhiskers

Interesting, I am wanting to start oaking some of my wines this year. Thanks for the heads up on these Runningwolf.


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## GreginND

Yes, that's the one. In Park Rapids, MN. They look interesting.


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## tonyt

Dan, I use them sometimes. They impart a ton of oak even by my standards. Looking back it appears that I am pulling them after about six weeks. I have also used some of them twice, immediately moving from one carboy to another knowing that most of the oak is already given up. That's a great price, I got mine from Valley Vintner, $4.50 per French Oak and $3.75 per American. I once had one that was actually charred on one side just like a barrel stave. It came with an RJS En Premuer Tarppini Syrah. That turned out to be my all time, hands down favorite wine. I tried like hell to find another of those kits but it seems that RJS had discontinued it several months earlier. I wonder if it was the stave or the fact that my family is from Trappini?


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## Runningwolf

I got that price because it was the last day and the quantity I bought. Vendors love to, not have to drag stuff back home with them if they can help it. I actually paid just a bit under wholesale price.They told me they actually go with a half stick sometimes especially when they're blending two diffferent oaks which is what i do. From their web site I printed out what each oak gives out in flavor and laminated it for reference.


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## jswordy

Guess I am dense, but these look like the same deal as oak spirals, just a little different, and at $10 for 2 instead of $8 for 2. What am I missing?


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## tonyt

jswordy said:


> Guess I am dense, but these look like the same deal as oak spirals, just a little different, and at $10 for 2 instead of $8 for 2. What am I missing?


My experience is that the staves or sticks are very different from spirals but let me say right here that I am not saying that they are "better" but their use and affect are different. The Staves I have are about 18 inches long with obvious toast char marks like cubes, unlike spirals. They are long grain unlike spirals. Although the descriptions say you can use one to three per six gallon carboy I have never used more than one. My experience has been that the stave imparts a ton of oak right off the bat where spirals seem to give it up more gradually. I would not use a stave when I need just a moderate amount more of oak. I can't honestly say at this point that I prefer staves or spirals. I do enjoy having staves in my oak arsenal along with barrels, spirals, cubes, chips, shavings and dust. If you're not a big fan of oakie wine I doubt you are missing anything.


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## jswordy

Tony, I like oak in some stuff, but find the spirals give me plenty of oak for my taste in just a few days, usually. Thanks for the comparison.


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## Runningwolf

tonyt said:


> My experience is that the staves or sticks are very different from spirals but let me say right here that I am not saying that they are "better" but their use and affect are different. The Staves I have are about 18 inches long with obvious toast char marks like cubes, unlike spirals. They are long grain unlike spirals. Although the descriptions say you can use one to three per six gallon carboy I have never used more than one. My experience has been that the stave imparts a ton of oak right off the bat where spirals seem to give it up more gradually. I would not use a stave when I need just a moderate amount more of oak. I can't honestly say at this point that I prefer staves or spirals. I do enjoy having staves in my oak arsenal along with barrels, spirals, cubes, chips, shavings and dust. If you're not a big fan of oakie wine I doubt you are missing anything.


 
I leave my spirals in for several months to extract all. I read somewhere that two are required but I always only use one. The Stix company told me the stix take even longer and sometimes they only pt a half a stix in. They especially do this if they want to put two different ones in. I usually like to split my oak up between two different types.


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## jswordy

Dan, I always hear different things about leaving them in, and time varies from a few days to your six months. Wow, if I left in my Medium Roasted French Oak spiral for 6 months, my wine would be blown away with nothing but oak taste. I have a rose I left one in for 10 days and I subsequently had to age it a year before it became approachable, there was so much oak tang in it. It drank like a cheap single-malt for the first 9 months. 

I'm playing with oaking my lowbrow Welch's concord now, and started with a third of a spiral left in for just 5 days. I reused the same spiral over all the carboys of concord I had at the time. I think that may turn out to be not enough, but am erring on the side of caution.

It seems my whites and near whites take oak a lot faster, maybe because their flavors are more delicate and less bold to begin with. I am shooting for an oak undertone, not a dominant flavor. Have you found a difference according to the color of the wine?


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## ibglowin

One things for sure everyones taste in oak is different. Just one of the many ways to make a wine your own and one that you like.


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## cintipam

My main concern would be how the wood was processed to prep it for sale. Chemicals etc are not what you want to put in your wine.

You imply you are not from USA. In USA until maybe 15 years ago wood was pressure treated with arsenic. You really need to be sure how your wood was treated.

If you grew it and milled it yourself, then that's different. And awesome.

Pam in cinti


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## Johnd

I've been a Wine Stix user, the manufacturer recommends 2-3 months for extraction of both long and short grained flavors. I've had good success with them and find the flavors to be more subtle and mellow than the same type and toast of spirals. I've used them little since getting my barrels, but that's what I'll use when the barrels are neutral. 

As far as the cost, I bought direct from the manufacturer in sealed bags of 25 and the cost was less than spirals, but that was a year or so ago. YMMV.


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## DaveS

I've Oakes wine with 80+ year old oak from a pew! That worked well, but I'm still learning how much to use. (I need to be more generous with the oak.)


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## Mismost

gitano said:


> Hello Pam in cinti. Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry for the confusion about my nationality. I am indeed an American. The "cultural difference" to which I referred was simply the 'culture' that develops with an internet forum over a period of time.
> 
> In the US, furniture grade lumber isn't and never has been "treated" with anything. The treating to which you referred that was banned a while back was treated with chromated copper arsenate (CCA) - a double whammy of arsenic AND copper. As a general rule, lumber providers don't want to spend any more than they have to - including the costs of "treatments" - so we are all a bit better for 'crass commercialism' in this case.
> 
> Thank you for your response too, Johnd. I suspect that the"oakiness" imparted would be a function of how much of the surface area was "fresh" -either newly cut or newly drilled. One would _probably_ get a more uniform product from a commercial vendor as their processing would be uniform over time whereas mine, for example, would depend on what I had on hand and how long it had been sitting in my scrap bin AND how much surface area had been exposed by cutting and drilling.
> 
> I will assume until I hear otherwise that there is nothing 'special' that the Stix makers "add" to the wood. I know that to be true of barrel makers. Charring is all they do. I may have to experiment to see what 'works'.
> 
> Thanks again for your responses.
> Paul



Paul...I seem to recall oak for use in wine is not created equal. I think, it may be that only white oak is used and not red oak. Sorry, I know that I noted that somewhere and now I can't find it.

Just to add another wrinkle, I like the honey combed oak....just has a lot of holes drilled into for more surface area....save the drillings and use it too I suppose.


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## stickman

My understanding is that wood sold for construction and furniture is kiln dried over the period of several days vs. 2 to 3 years of open air drying for the stave wood used for toasted products. Even with the same oak wood, the flavors of the finished toasted product are reportedly different depending on how and where the wood was dried. I can't speak from experience, but I suspect making toasted oak is like making wine, there are a lot of variables to tweak, but could be fun if you have the patience.


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## Floandgary

While this forum can and does provide a wealth of information ranging anywhere from the size of a grape to the price of rice in China, one can see the variety of experiences reported on any one subject. That said, I've found it equally worthwhile to delve into specific research regarding a particular topic ,,, "How it's made" ,, "how do they do that" ,, "why it does what it does" ,, for a better understanding... Also provides a basis for discerning fact/function from advertising hype! Obviously "OAK" is the mainstay wood involved in winemaking. Be it dust, chip, cube, spiral, or stave,,, pre-fermentation, during fermentation, or post fermentation ,, American, French, Hungarian ,, . and any of the myriad of other variables, they all serve the same basic function. Together with all of the other aspects of winemaking, we all arrive at the same crossroad,,,, "What is it supposed to taste like?" and "What does our taste buds like?".


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## Johny99

*Oak etc.*

White oak is the common name for oak commonly used in wine makinf. 

Historically, basswood, beach and hickory have also been used according to a couple of books I have. I suspect it was more a case of what do you have to make barrels of than anything else. There is one theory I read that ran the lines of oak was easy to make cooperage from and plentiful in the forests of Europe. Thus it was used for wine making and storage. Over time the effects, flavors, etc. of the oak became associated with wine and viola, it became the wood for wind.

Ok nuff of that. There are several subspecies or genus or whatever (biology was a long time ago) of oak used for cooperage. Midwest white oak is different than that from Oregon, from that in most of France, and from that from Eastern Europe (read Hungary). Each imparts different flavors and aromas according to the books and websites. Chris Figgens, winemaker for Leonnitti, Figgens and Doubleback in Walla Walla has a secret blend of specific oaks from specific forests for his barrels. The best I could get him to spill is that it is all or mainly French.

So, I say use what you want, tastes, taste, taste and let us all know what happens. I'm experimenting with spirals, winestix, and cubes right now as my barrels go neutral for my reds and in stainless for my Chardonnay and Viognier. 

So far I like the control the spirals or winestix give me for the whites. I can easily pull them out with a bit of fishing line, let it rest a bit and taste. I do slip the partially used stick in another carboy of wine to store so I can return it to the original if it needs a bit more. If anyone has a better thought of how to temporarily store them for more use, let me know. I've thought of the freezer but haven't tried that yet.


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## JohnT

Ever the butinski, let me add one thought. 

Wine barrels are not so much charred as toasted. 

If you have the impression that simply blackening a piece of oak will give you the same results as a standard medium toast barrel, you may be disappointed. 

IMHO, the most desirable flavor components are located in the "caramelization layer" which exists below the char layer and is developed through a slow toasting process. Keep this in mind if you are preparring your own wood.


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## wineforfun

JohnT said:


> Keep this in mind if you are preparring your own wood.



Now that is a quote to live by.


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## JohnT

wineforfun said:


> Now that is a quote to live by.


 
oh geeeeze!


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## Floandgary

"Discovery is a direct product of necessity". "try it,,,, you'll like it!" Wish experimentation happened as quickly as the thought process... Since we're on the "wood" subject, has anyone ever seen or heard of any kind of data showing effects of different species of wood in the winemaking process?? Agree with "johny99" that oak was the available wood-of-choice for other reasons long before its chemical contribution was realized, and hence becoming mainstay. Anybody ever experiment with fruitwoods for taste/flavor enhancement? Gee,,, a "La-bora-tree" full of blinking lights and eerie sounds could speed things up!


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## roger80465

JohnT said:


> Ever the butinski, let me add one thought.
> 
> Wine barrels are not so much charred as toasted.
> 
> If you have the impression that simply blackening a piece of oak will give you the same results as a standard medium toast barrel, you may be disappointed.
> 
> IMHO, the most desirable flavor components are located in the "caramelization layer" which exists below the char layer and is developed through a slow toasting process. Keep this in mind if you are preparring your own wood.



We have all heard Joeswines talk about 'building a sauce' with tweaks. I think that is what happens with oak. You have multiple flavors that exist within oak and they come out at different levels of toasting. I think that is why medium toast oak chips will deliver a completely different flavor profile than medium toast cubes or spirals. You are getting the flavors from all those layers of toast, rather than just one. Add to that using a combination of different toast oak products and the complexity of flavors continues to expand. I could be all wet, but this is a theory that makes sense to me. I have used several types of oak blends and have been very happy with the results because of the complexity.


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