# New Winexpert Kits



## vabeachbear

Anyone see anything announced on what the new Winexpert Kits are going to be.

I see they have a few brands replacing all of their current brands, but I can't see what the kits in each will be.


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## sremick

Just saw this myself and came here looking for details. I'm unclear on how the new kits align with the old, what the differences are, etc. The info I saw alluded to changes to ingredients, skins, juice quantity, etc.


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## vabeachbear

Here are what the new kits are;

Private Reserve
Reserve, Classic
Island Mist
On The House

These will be the new brands of Winexpert! 

Hoping for some high end stuff in the Private Reserve


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## sremick

Yeah I saw the names of the new lines, but no explanations in order to compare old to new


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## jgmann67

I’m told it’s just a rebranding and consolidation initiative. I saw the new logo. Did not impress me. 

But, if the effort has the chance of improving the wines, I’ll reserve judgement. Hopefully it’s not just “old wine in new bottles.”


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## sremick

I'm concerned about the bits about change in juice quantity and figuring out what the new "top" brand is


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## Brian55

The upside is I would expect we'll see some nice clearance pricing on the old inventory coming up soon.


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## cmason1957

sremick said:


> I'm concerned about the bits about change in juice quantity and figuring out what the new "top" brand is



It will be easy to figure out which is the "top-of-the=line-brand" it will have the highest price tag. Same as always.


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## winemaker81

WineXpert has changed the description of their Island Mist series -- in the past they included the base grape variety, but that was not in the descriptions when I purchased a kit last month.


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## ras2018

Saw a quick video promo-ing the new lines and saw the Amarone. Back from the dead!


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## Brian55

ras2018 said:


> Saw a quick video promo-ing the new lines and saw the Amarone. Back from the dead!


Link?


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## Swedeman

Hmm, saw a promo too. I noticed that basic is 8 liter, reserve 10 liter and private reserve 14 liter to 23 liters. Tag line was smaller kits require less pasteurization means better wine...

Some info on their website


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## ras2018

Brian55 said:


> Link?



It was on their Facebook page.


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## ras2018

Moving to 14L for the top tier isn’t a step in the right direction. This should be interesting....


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## sremick

ras2018 said:


> Moving to 14L for the top tier isn’t a step in the right direction.



And that basically hits upon the point/concern I was trying to make.


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## jsbeckton

WE is already dead to me so this just reinforces that. Too bad though with the great labelpeelers pricing...


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## LouisCKpasteur

These guys are going to blow their company up. I feel sorry for Label Peelers, cause I spend in the neighborhood of 500-700 dollars a year with them at least (and I'm small potatoes), but I really feel like I'm being insulted when I watch that clip. SMALLER KITS MEANS LESS PASTEURIZATION makes better wine. If they want to say that, then they are implicitly saying that their legacy 14L kits are better quality than the legacy 23L Eclipse. This is absolutely imbecilic. When I heard about it, I thought, well maybe they got the latest mega-million dollar Flash Detente and it's SO good that 14L can = 23L - but I'm writing that off as a fantasy I manufactured because I didn't want to believe these guys could be so stupid.


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## Trick

Maybe they invented a new technology that only pulls water out of grape juice without losing any aroma or goodies. I am dreaming that can be the case.


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## jgmann67

I don’t believe in leprechauns or unicorns, but I’ll give it a chance. 

I also spend about $500 - $600 a year in kits, mostly at Labelpeelers. 

We’ll see.


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## bstnh1

I flatly don't believe the pasteurization hype. If you want to limit the exposure to heat, you can pasteurized small quantities of juice quickly and pour them together for a big kit. Sure a small kit may require less pasteurization and as such may retain more flavor, etc. BUT, it's still a small kit with less juice that requires a lot of water be added.


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## StreetGlide

Very glad I prefer RJS over WE at every level. It was like that 10 years ago and even more like that now.


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## kuziwk

Brian55 said:


> The upside is I would expect we'll see some nice clearance pricing on the old inventory coming up soon.


Highly doubt it, A little birdy spilled the beans and the price points are going to be the same. VineCo did the same thing. VineCo... They are dropping many of the original grapes/kits, and replacing them with others. Some will get replaced others won’t. It’s effectively reducing many of the varieties though overall. For those that don’t know, VineCo and Winexpert are owned by the same entity, Peller Estates....Andrew Peller among several other ventures. This appears to be a mass amalgamation of all the kit manufacturer’s owned by Peller estates, just look at Vineco’s website which looks identical to winexpert’s. I’m not 100% sure if the varieties will be different or the same. Furthermore, it’s disconcerting about the mid range dropping 6L of volume and the top and bottom end lines dropping 2 litres, not to mention some of my favourites are now gone. I guess we will have to wait and see if these are any good. If not I guess I’m switching to RJS for the high end kits.


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## sremick

I don't know how to feel since I'm new to this so none of my WE kits have aged long enough to drink, but I've always heard that they're really good and 3 of my kits are LEs.

I've also heard lots of good things about RJS En Primeur (one of my batches is from them) so if they're now king I guess that simplifies my shopping going forward.


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## kuziwk

sremick said:


> I don't know how to feel since I'm new to this so none of my WE kits have aged long enough to drink, but I've always heard that they're really good and 3 of my kits are LEs.
> 
> I've also heard lots of good things about RJS En Primeur (one of my batches is from them) so if they're now king I guess that simplifies my shopping going forward.


It’s too early to tell without trying the new lineup. The cellar craft showcase kits blew me away after 1 to 1.5 years of aging, we lost some volume in these new kits however without the manufacturer dropping the price its hard to assume that they are catering to the masses which is what the new marketing strategy would suggest. Perhaps they are buying better quality grapes with the money saved from less processing and shipping costs, as well as the increased shelf life.


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## Kayts

I have made many of the WE kits and had very good outcomes. Used both expensive Eclipse and the cheaper. I have also used RJS and find more of the local suppliers are keeping
them in stock now. But I am glad summer is coming and I can make more from scratch now.


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## Putterrr

The issue as I have with the new and improved and lets not forget smaller kits is the unknown. I usually have my top line kits sit for 2 years before I drink them. I make about a dozen kits a year and 75% are from Vineco or WE. So am I going to invest in 18 kits @ $120-150 per kit over the next 2 years just to see if I like the new wine I will be drinking in 2022-23. If I don't, then I have another 2 years of disappointing wine to consume. On my wine making journey, I always found that the more juice supplied, the better the end result. I'm not about to spend my $2,300 to see if the hype measures up. Too bad as some of the current kits are my favorites. I will pass and let others be their guinea pigs. See you in 2023.

cheers


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## bstnh1

kuziwk said:


> It’s too early to tell without trying the new lineup. The cellar craft showcase kits blew me away after 1 to 1.5 years of aging, we lost some volume in these new kits however without the manufacturer dropping the price its hard to assume that they are catering to the masses which is what the new marketing strategy would suggest. Perhaps they are buying better quality grapes with the money saved from less processing and shipping costs, as well as the increased shelf life.



_Or perhaps, they have found a way to squeeze more profit from their products by supplying kits that contain less juice, require less packaging and cost less to ship._


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## bstnh1

StreetGlide said:


> Very glad I prefer RJS over WE at every level. It was like that 10 years ago and even more like that now.



I wouldn't be surprised to see RJS make a similar switch to small kits with less juice.


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## Brian55

bstnh1 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see RJS make a similar switch to small kits with less juice.


Let's hope not, that would leave Mosti as the only decent option.


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## pillswoj

bstnh1 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see RJS make a similar switch to small kits with less juice.



I plan to let my local RJS dealer know they will be getting more of my business because of this move by Vineco and that they should send word up the chain not to mess with reducing volumes on the high end kits.


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## StreetGlide

bstnh1 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see RJS make a similar switch to small kits with less juice.



I hope RJS sees this as their way to move ahead in their industry then fall behind. Hopefully the change nothing and people start moving to them.


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## sremick

I just emailed Winexpert to let them know my thoughts and that I would no longer be buying any of their kits.


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## jbo_c

I, for one, am willing to give them a try if I can find them for the right price. Having spent a fair amount of time corresponding with one of their technical advisors some time back, I can see the logic of what they’re trying to do. I’m skeptical, but I’ll try it. They are in this to make money, so they must truly believe it will make better wine.

That said, my shop of choice doesn’t carry WE except by special order, so I don’t think pricing is likely to be such that I would try it outright.

Jbo


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## joeswine

the wine industry is in trouble from France were the *beer drinkers* are rising in popularity and the influx of *Spanish wines* being labeled product of France, to the global fires and droughts the wine industry is taking a betting. So its know wonder that something else we can't understand is happing to the kits. They are a hybrid to the industry and are not the norm, but like I've' always said sometimes *less is more. Work* with what your given and be a better wine maker for it .
I have always thought that the pricing was getting out of control, I have know control over that and that's why I've learned to make the best out of every kit no matter what the price line.
and always* think outside the box.*


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## sremick

In case anyone is interested in WineXpert's response to my email to them. Basically this is their PR position:



> I hope you won’t rush to judge us. Our kits still make 23L of excellent quality wine.
> We posed the question to ourselves, ‘If we were starting this business again, what would we do differently?’ Our products have been completely reformulated with a focus on improved flavor, color, and aromatics. It was also important to reduce our carbon footprint by using less plastic, paper and energy in the process.
> If you would like any further detail or have other questions or concerns please, do not hesitate to contact me.


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## kuziwk

sremick said:


> In case anyone is interested in WineXpert's response to my email to them. Basically this is their PR position:


Haha well maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt, worth trying one or two and letting them age out. We should really be able to tell pretty soon whether or not it’s going to be a good wine or not...it shouldn’t take a full year or two. Obviously after a year or two it will be a fair comparison though.


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## joeswine

I'm not do sure what carbon footprint has to do with it???????
I do know that reducing the total volume will increase the ABV. Overall if not controlled.
As far as increasing the over all nose,and taste maybe or maybe not.
I think you'll have to handle it kit but kit.
But Don't be afraid to try just do like always, no your wines taste profile and take it from there,nothing's really changed just the starting volume.


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## jsbeckton

joeswine said:


> I'm not do sure what carbon footprint has to do with it???????



But of course this is the new “get out of jail free” phrase for companies to justify reducing costs via reducing quality or something inherent expense.

The fact that they even said this signals to me that an already flawed product (IMO) will become even worse. So so so glad I had already moved on from kits.


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## joeswine

I'll put my kit wine up against any pressed grape,or raw juice anytime in a blind tasting , anytime any where.
Grapes aren't for everyone one, nither is bucket juice or kits.its all about the process and the winemakers skills and know how.
I've done them all and kits give you the speed and the ability to have fun in this craft,it allows you to make your personal size wines your own.
By thinking outside the box.


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## jsbeckton

joeswine said:


> I'll put my kit wine up against any pressed grape,or raw juice anytime in a blind tasting , anytime any where.
> Grapes aren't for everyone one, nither is bucket juice or kits.its all about the process and the winemakers skills and know how.
> I've done them all and kits give you the speed and the ability to have fun in this craft,it allows you to make your personal size wines your own.
> By thinking outside the box.



I commend you if you are able to beat out quality AG wines in a blind taste test, and mean no disrespect to kit makers...but all I can offer are my own experiences.

I’ve now made 15-20 kits, from all of the major manufactures and from all of the concentration levels. I have bulk aged these wines in a temperature controlled cellar for several years with little to no improvement. I’d also like to think that I have “thought outside the box” by trying many things like extended maceration, fermentation and finishing tannins, different yeast, currants extra oak (to name a few). None of these wines have been anything other than “decent” and all have a characteristic that I can only describe as “jammy” that I can’t get used to. I’ve also tried fellow kit wine makers wines and come to the same conclusion so I don’t think “my process” is to blame.

My first all grape wine is not even a year old and I think it’s head and shoulders better than my best kit ever was. So for me at least, the evidence is clear that kit wines are just not for me. 

Again, these are just my experiences. Believe me, I’ve got several hundred bottles of kit wine still so I have no reason not want to believe kit wine can be just as good.


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## sour_grapes

joeswine said:


> I do know that reducing the total volume will increase the ABV. Overall if not controlled.



I am not following your thinking here, Joe? Can you explain why you say that? (I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you meant the total volume of the kit before reconstituting.)


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## joeswine

In some cases we've reduced wine kits by 1/2 gallon of volume. Totally. On cheaper kits.
On better kits $80 , to $110 just controlling the overall volume ( SG) to (ABV) is enough.
Top of the line kits, $145 to $200 , the volume of water to concentrate is marginal ,I usually don't add to the mix ,I just check the (SG) to the ( ABV,) with out my enhancements if any. Clearer?


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## ali_emamy

I agree with some comments above. I made about 20 batches of red wine in three years from the Winexperts / Cellar Craft premium kits. On average every year about 7-8 kits with different variety; Malbec, Stagg's Leaf Merlot, Barossa Valley Shiraz, Lodi Cab Sav, Pinot Noir, etc. In 2019 I stopped to make any more wine from kits, I realized all they are identical, only they pack them into a box with different name/label. Any one who tried the store Pinot Noir wine once, knows that the Pinot Noir color is light ruby and looks like raspberry, but all Winexpert red kits are same, no matter what the kit is. They are using the name of popular wine producing regions to sell their wine kits, isn't this a scam? Even the stores that I bought those kits from them, they confirmed this, obviously they never tell their customers the truth at first. I believe it's totally waste of time and money to make wine from kits.


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## bstnh1

sremick said:


> In case anyone is interested in WineXpert's response to my email to them. Basically this is their PR position:


I wonder what magic reformulation they do to "improve flavor, color and aromatics"?????


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## bstnh1

ali_emamy said:


> I agree with some comments above. I made about 20 batches of red wine in three years from the Winexperts / Cellar Craft premium kits. On average every year about 7-8 kits with different variety; Malbec, Stagg's Leaf Merlot, Barossa Valley Shiraz, Lodi Cab Sav, Pinot Noir, etc. In 2019 I stopped to make any more wine from kits, I realized all they are identical, only they pack them into a box with different name/label. Any one who tried the store Pinot Noir wine once, knows that the Pinot Noir color is light ruby and looks like raspberry, but all Winexpert red kits are same, no matter what the kit is. They are using the name of popular wine producing regions to sell their wine kits, isn't this a scam? Even the stores that I bought those kits from them, they confirmed this, obviously they never tell their customers the truth at first. I believe it's totally waste of time and money to make wine from kits.



I respectfully disagree with your contention that all the red wine kits contain the same variety of juice. I too have made many of Winexpert's red kits. I find they are not all the same color nor the same color intensity, they don't all taste the same and they don't all age at the same rate. I doubt that Winexpert or any other kit manufacturer would put the same juice in all their red kits because of the liability issue alone.


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## cmason1957

bstnh1 said:


> I respectfully disagree with your contention that all the red wine kits contain the same variety of juice. I too have made many of Winexpert's red kits. I find they are not all the same color nor the same color intensity, they don't all taste the same and they don't all age at the same rate. I doubt that Winexpert or any other kit manufacturer would put the same juice in all their red kits because of the liability issue alone.



I'm pretty certain that if they say Merlot (as an example) they will contain at least 75% of Merlot juice, that's not to say it doesn't contain other juice, but the vast majority will be Merlot. Just the same as when you buy (at least in USA) Merlot by the bottle it only has to contain 75% of Merlot.


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## jsbeckton

I partially agree. I think that all of the WE Eclipse kits taste pretty similar but not exactly the same. I wonder if that varietal percentage isn’t lower than 75%.


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## jbo_c

I’m in the “they all taste similar” camp, but I do also believe they taste at least slightly different. I’m sure they likely have different juices. I have noticed, though, that more and more, the descriptions include the word “style” suggesting it really isn’t the named grape that’s foremost in the blend. I’m OK with that going in eyes wide opened.

I’ve also noted recently that my “high end” kits from RJS contain “grape juice, grape juice from concentrate, and grape juice concentrate”. So the increased volume of my higher volume kits may be from concentrate anyway. So why am I paying a premium for that? (This may go to the point of WE making their premium kits smaller in another thread.)

I’m not complaining. It’s just something I recently noticed. I won’t contest that there’s a difference in the bigger and smaller kits.

Jbo


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## joeswine

It's simple I think there not going to add as much water, I could be wrong.
I'm not sure what there content quantities are ,there's a lot of co op vineyard's out there that's probably where the juice comes from.all over the world. So yes Merlot, could be 100% or not.
Their content is different per kit per pricing range with blending wines involved.
For the kit makers out there if wines are made according to the MFG. Process and with a little planning can truly make a difference .
Just remember wine tasting like most things in life are all subjective to taste.and by the way most,not all but most Amature wine contest put all formats of winemaking up against each other straight up.
So don't short change the kits, I can tell you things about so called vineyard's and dreak most of them make or bucket juice that's cut by 1/3 before distribution.
Its all about what you like better ,taste, and the mood your in at the time


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## jsbeckton

joeswine said:


> It's simple I think there not going to add as much water, I could be wrong.



Are they “not adding as much water” or are the removing more to get the reduced volume? I know that some people feel that the water removal process is detrimental to the finished product so they would not find this comforting.


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## kuziwk

ali_emamy said:


> I agree with some comments above. I made about 20 batches of red wine in three years from the Winexperts / Cellar Craft premium kits. On average every year about 7-8 kits with different variety; Malbec, Stagg's Leaf Merlot, Barossa Valley Shiraz, Lodi Cab Sav, Pinot Noir, etc. In 2019 I stopped to make any more wine from kits, I realized all they are identical, only they pack them into a box with different name/label. Any one who tried the store Pinot Noir wine once, knows that the Pinot Noir color is light ruby and looks like raspberry, but all Winexpert red kits are same, no matter what the kit is. They are using the name of popular wine producing regions to sell their wine kits, isn't this a scam? Even the stores that I bought those kits from them, they confirmed this, obviously they never tell their customers the truth at first. I believe it's totally waste of time and money to make wine from kits.



I read a study Somewhere that many of the best wine tasters cannot tell the difference of different grapes used for wines...at least reliably enough to identify which grape were used. I would disagree with this statement about kits though, all my VineCo kits have unique characteristics and flavours. My in-laws even said the same thing about my kit wines and they are beer drinkers. I don’t know what wine you guys are drinking and how much you are spending but most of my kit wines are better than most $20 bottles in Canada. I’ve got very picky about commercial wines compared to the cellar craft showcase lineup.


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## sremick

kuziwk said:


> I read a study Somewhere that many of the best wine tasters cannot tell the difference of different grapes used for wines...at least reliably enough to identify which grape were used.


I might disagree with this. I'm hardly anywhere near a "best wine taster" but I feel nearly certain that if you poured me glasses of cab, merlot, pinor noir, and tempranillo I could tell you which is which. I could probably pick out the malbec if you threw that into the mix.


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## kuziwk

sremick said:


> I might disagree with this. I'm hardly anywhere near a "best wine taster" but I feel nearly certain that if you poured me glasses of cab, merlot, pinor noir, and tempranillo I could tell you which is which. I could probably pick out the malbec if you threw that into the mix.


I would say the same, but the reality is I admit when I’m wrong. Perhaps your taste buds are better than mine though. It’s also noteworthy that the older we get our taste buds don’t work as well, I’m only 28 where most of these critics are typically older. I sometimes have a hard time telling a cab sav from a Merlot...I’ve had some excellent merlots that are tannic and full that could easily pass for a cab sav.

here is one article.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis


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## joeswine

When we had our wine club we would do blind tasting all the time and the results were always the same know one with few exceptions what was what. After a while they started all tasting alike. sometimes wine makers over load the grape with oak to a point where your sucking on a log, to them that's good wine.its all subjective .


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## kuziwk

joeswine said:


> When we had our wine club we would do blind tasting all the time and the results were always the same know one with few exceptions what was what. After a while they started all tasting alike. sometimes wine makers over load the grape with oak to a point where your sucking on a log, to them that's good wine.its all subjective .


I’ve had the same findings with experienced wine drinkers. Furthermore, what kind of wine are forum members drinking on a regular basis thats better than some of the best kits? my parents drink 150 dollar bottles of wine, and they think the showcase kits were excellent. Obviously the $150 commercial wine is better, however “better” is subjective and you can’t compare a $6 A bottle kit wine to $150 bottles. I can’t afford $2000 a month for wine, so I enjoy my kit wines for what they are instead and choose not to compare them to the pinnacle of quality wine.


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## bstnh1

kuziwk said:


> I’ve had the same findings with experienced wine drinkers. Furthermore, what kind of wine are forum members drinking on a regular basis thats better than some of the best kits? my parents drink 150 dollar bottles of wine, and they think the showcase kits were excellent. Obviously the $150 commercial wine is better, however “better” is subjective and you can’t compare a $6 A bottle kit wine to $150 bottles. I can’t afford $2000 a month for wine, so I enjoy my kit wines for what they are instead and choose not to compare them to the pinnacle of quality wine.



Lots of studies out there show that in blind tastings the average wine drinker actually prefers the cheaper wines. The so-called "experts" - those with some training - prefer the more expensive wines by a very slight margin.


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## joeswine

Does anyone remember how $2 buck Chuck get it's start? 
Perfect example of a cheap wine making it big.


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## Chuck E

joeswine said:


> Does anyone remember how $2 buck Chuck get it's start?
> Perfect example of a cheap wine making it big.



This is how $2 Chuck got it's start...
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/05/18/drink-up


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## kuziwk

bstnh1 said:


> Lots of studies out there show that in blind tastings the average wine drinker actually prefers the cheaper wines. The so-called "experts" - those with some training - prefer the more expensive wines by a very slight margin.


That’s probably true, my in laws who are not wine drinkers prefer my lower end kits to the higher end kits. That being said my parents are experienced wine drinkers, i actually tricked my dad since he originally was not a fan of my wines only because of the stigma of homemade wine. He is also a proponent of the more you spend the better the product, or more quality you get. He was asking what bottle it was after trying it as he really liked it, once i told him that it was one of mine he started complaining lol. I’m not saying i prefer the kit wines over better Commerical wines, I’m saying for what the kit wines are and what you pay...they are pretty damn good. Ive had $150 bottles of wine, they are excellent and in my opinion “Better”. However the high end kits offer a lot for what they cost aswell, i also cant afford to drink 15x $150 bottles of wine every month between my wife and I. I don’t feel that my quality of life is impacted by drinking wine kits over 150 dollar wine. I can think of a thousand other things to spend money on...


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## jbo_c

I’ve made kits across the spectrum and I’d compare any of them to. $4.00(US) bottle. 

I tell people who ask about my hobby all the time: I can make better beer than I can buy. I make the wine because I enjoy having my own.

The only wine I’ve made that would compare favorably against your average commercial bottle was made from fresh grapes. I make kits because I enjoy the making and they’re passable for every day drinking.

Jbo


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## kuziwk

jbo_c said:


> I’ve made kits across the spectrum and I’d compare any of them to. $4.00(US) bottle.
> 
> I tell people who ask about my hobby all the time: I can make better beer than I can buy. I make the wine because I enjoy having my own.
> 
> The only wine I’ve made that would compare favorably against your average commercial bottle was made from fresh grapes. I make kits because I enjoy the making and they’re passable for every day drinking.
> 
> Jbo


Hmm that’s unfortunate, we all experience things differently though. If my wines compared to $4 a bottle, I wouldn’t even bother making it. Reminds of the time i picked up a bottle of California cab sav for $8USD a bottle in the airport, it was Nasty. I Can’t drink wine less than $12-$14 CAD a bottle anymore, its just not worth the calories.


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## Brian55

kuziwk said:


> Hmm that’s unfortunate, we all experience things differently though. If my wines compared to $4 a bottle, I wouldn’t even bother making it. Reminds of the time i picked up a bottle of California cab sav for $8USD a bottle in the airport, it was Nasty. I Can’t drink wine less than $12-$14 CAD a bottle anymore, its just not worth the calories.


Agreed!
In the US, decent drinkable wine can be found for around $8 per bottle and up, sometimes a bit less, but not too often. This is purely my opinion, but it's fairly well agreed upon by friends and family who also enjoy wine, and have attended many tastings. The premium kits we make will compare to commercial wines in blind tastings to wines in the $8 to $20 range, sometimes a bit more, but not too often. Kits can make for an enjoyable hobby, and are capable of producing some decent every day wines for less than $6 per bottle. You have to question the motives of people who feel the need to keep returning to the "kit wine" section of a winemaking forum in order to chime in about how much they hate kit wines. Just like the idiot box or the radio, if you don't like the content, simply change the channel and find something more to your liking.


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## 1d10t

Years ago I watched some 60 minutes type show. A whiskey maker wanted to gain market so he cut his prices. The more he cut the less he sold. Light bulb goes on. Raise prices and sell more. Most people know crap about whiskey and just assume the more you pay the better it is.


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## Brian55

1d10t said:


> Years ago I watched some 60 minutes type show. A whiskey maker wanted to gain market so he cut his prices. The more he cut the less he sold. Light bulb goes on. Raise prices and sell more. Most people know crap about whiskey and just assume the more you pay the better it is.


This technique only works in the long term within a limited window, based on the quality of your product. No one is going to continue to pay top dollar for swill once he/she does a bit of comparison to other products in the same price range.


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## jsbeckton

Brian55 said:


> You have to question the motives of people who feel the need to keep returning to the "kit wine" section of a winemaking forum in order to chime in about how much they hate kit wines.



I can’t speak for anyone else but my “motives” are to pass along my experiences to others. I remember when I started the kits and thought that were only so-so everyone kept saying “just wait”. So...I waited...and kept making more kits to stock up.

Well, here I am 4 years later and there are all still so-so IMO. They didn’t much change after 12 months.

So for people that are liking their kit wines, god bless, but if you are not getting what you hoped after 6-12 months I’d recommend moving on and maybe trying grape wines.

Again, these are just my experiences and my opinions so people can take them for what they are worth (prob not much [emoji41]).


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## Johnd

jsbeckton said:


> I can’t speak for anyone else but my “motives” are to pass along my experiences to others. I remember when I started the kits and thought that were only so-so everyone kept saying “just wait”. So...I waited...and kept making more kits to stock up.
> 
> Well, here I am 4 years later and there are all still so-so IMO. They didn’t much change after 12 months.
> 
> So for people that are liking their kit wines, god bless, but if you are not getting what you hoped after 6-12 months I’d recommend moving on.
> 
> Again, these are just my experiences and my opinions so people can take them for what they are worth (prob not much [emoji41]).



Many of us here have gone through the same progression, timelines may differ, but for many, the conclusion is the same. I made some pretty good kit wines, adding tannins, using grape packs and the like, but the best were when I added skins from a real grape ferment. The move to grapes, for me, was just a part of the natural progression to increase the quality of my wines, and I haven't looked back.......


----------



## Venatorscribe

Chuck E said:


> This how $2 Chuck got it's start...
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/05/18/drink-up


An excellent link. Thks. Thoroughly enjoyed that story.


----------



## bstnh1

Chuck E said:


> This how $2 Chuck got it's start...
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/05/18/drink-up



Long, but really interesting (and funny) article!!


----------



## joeswine

But true, it's all about the process and it's all subjective to taste.
There's a beer and wine store in my area called Canal's, when you enter the first thing that comes into sight are shopping carts full of cheap , Italian and Spanish wines and there all tasty from $4.99 to $5.99 whites and reds . I've tried quite a few and didn't complain.


----------



## sour_grapes

Ahh, good ol' Canal's. Made many a liquor run there! (Mostly a Roger Wilco guy, as it was more convenient.)


----------



## joeswine

Are you in NJ?


----------



## sour_grapes

No, but I grew up in Philly, 10 minutes from a bridge. NJ had (a) a lower drinking age, and (b) non-state-run liquor stores. Ergo, we miscreants made many trips to NJ.


----------



## jbo_c

Brian55 said:


> You have to question the motives of people who feel the need to keep returning to the "kit wine" section of a winemaking forum in order to chime in about how much they hate kit wines.



This seems to have been directed at my comments, but I’ve never said I hate them. I do wish they made wine I perceive to be better. I also noted that I continue to make them for everyday plonk. And I’d like to continue to make them better.

The fact that people don’t think you can rival Opus 1 with a kit is no reason their question their motives. McDonalds isn’t the worlds’ best burger, but I’ve eaten there and it served its purpose.

Jbo


----------



## joeswine

*"It's all subjective"
It's also about what space you have to work in, time you have for the hobby, the amount of equipment you have and the cost of the base product your dealing with ,the temperature in your local so many tangibles, it all comes down on what works for you.
*


----------



## Brian55

jbo_c said:


> This seems to have been directed at my comments, but I’ve never said I hate them. I do wish they made wine I perceive to be better. I also noted that I continue to make them for everyday plonk. And I’d like to continue to make them better.
> 
> The fact that people don’t think you can rival Opus 1 with a kit is no reason their question their motives. McDonalds isn’t the worlds’ best burger, but I’ve eaten there and it served its purpose.
> 
> Jbo


It wasn't intended for anyone specific. Just the one's who feel the need to keep coming here to complain about kit wines, especially those who clearly created an account to do just that. You can pick them out easily as they usually have less than a handful of messages, all of them bashing kit wines. See post #43 in this thread for an example. Thankfully it seems that particular troll has moved on.


----------



## jbo_c

Yep. That was an odd, random seeming one. I was happy to see that no one really took the bait.

Jbo


----------



## kuziwk

Brian55 said:


> It wasn't intended for anyone specific. Just the one's who feel the need to keep coming here to complain about kit wines, especially those who clearly created an account to do just that. You can pick them out easily as they usually have less than a handful of messages, all of them bashing kit wines. See post #43 in this thread for an example. Thankfully it seems that particular troll has moved on.


Hmm kind of makes you wonder...some commercial winemakers perhaps?...furthermore if they hate wine kits so much, they must be lurking in these threads for some other reason.


----------



## Tatmia

Not sure if I have a complete list or not, but it looks like they're dropping some of the white blends while keeping the red. Trinity Red is listed but not Trinity White. Luna Rossa is listed but not Luna Bianca. Also don't see Symphony. 

It's a shame for me because I haven't had a commercial white blend that I like but I love my Trinity White. Symphony turned out great and it's definitely not something I see on the wine shelves at the grocery store. I'm hoping to make a batch of Luna Bianca this year. 

Definitely a shame that whites don't store like reds or I'd just make a 15-20 gallon batch of Trinity White, I'm that happy with it. I'll keep my fingers crossed that maybe my list is incomplete.


----------



## winemaker81

I just checked winexpert.com -- the old site is gone and in its place is a "placeholder" talking about the new kits. I didn't see any substantial information.


----------



## Tatmia

Here's what I have - I notice that Coastal Red, which LabelPeelers told me was one of their bestsellers is also missing, so maybe more additions are to come.

Private Reserve (14L) 

Dry Creek Chard

Yakima Valley Pinot Gris
Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc
Amarone Style
Lodi Cab Sauv
Marlborough Pinot Noir
Bordeaux Blend Style
Stags Leap Merlot
Nebbiolo
Super Tuscan
Lodi Old Vines Zin
Reserve (10L)


Australia Chard
German Gewurztraminer
Pinot Grigio
California Reisling
California Sauv Vlan
Australian Traminer Riesling
Australian Grenache Rose
California Cab Merlot
Australian Cab Sauv
Australian Cab Shiraz
Luna Rossa
Malbec
California Merlot
Enigma 
Chile Pinot Noir
Australian Shiraz
Vieux Chateau du Roi
Amarone Style
Chile Carmenere
Classic (8L)


California Chard
Cal Moscato
Pinot Grigio
Chile Sauv Blanc
Viognier
Washing Riesling
Calfiornia Gewurztraminer
California Liebfraumilch
White Zin
Chile Cab Sauv
Diablo Rojo
Australia Grenache Shiraz Mourvedre
Chile Malbec
Chile Merlot
Cal Pinot Noir
Sangiovese
Cal Shiraz
Tempranillo
Trinity Red 
Vieux Chateau du Roi
Valorza


----------



## sour_grapes

Tatmia said:


> Not sure if I have a complete list or not, but it looks like they're dropping some of the white blends while keeping the red. Trinity Red is listed but not Trinity White. Luna Rossa is listed but not Luna Bianca. Also don't see Symphony.
> 
> It's a shame for me because I haven't had a commercial white blend that I like but I love my Trinity White. Symphony turned out great and it's definitely not something I see on the wine shelves at the grocery store. I'm hoping to make a batch of Luna Bianca this year.
> 
> Definitely a shame that whites don't store like reds or I'd just make a 15-20 gallon batch of Trinity White, I'm that happy with it. I'll keep my fingers crossed that maybe my list is incomplete.



Boy, they are sure rolling the dice! Taking a big gamble on their business. Hope it works out for them, I s'pose.


----------



## StreetGlide

Is the price range for the PR going to be what the eclipse is now?


----------



## winemaker81

@Tatmia, thanks for the list!

@sour_grapes, I agree, Winexpert is certainly rolling the dice. I'll wait to see what other think before buying one of the new kits.


----------



## Swedeman

Tatmia said:


> so maybe more additions are to come.


Let's hope so, as the list is pretty short for the more expensive ones.

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## joeswine

How many does one need?
there are so many ways to create a wine that you can enjoy and is yours.
Such as taking a basic kit and blending it with a one gallon kit , think of the possibilities.


----------



## kuziwk

That’s the final list, it’s looks almost identical to the VineCo one. I have the official released documents including the selection or cross reference chart which attempts to compare the past kits with the new ones. They must have cut 40% of the variety out of the equation. I really hope they didn’t drop the passport lineup which is limited edition that always brightens up an otherwise depressing New Years. One thing they could have done is made more limited release kits to increase sales due to exclusivity.


----------



## sour_grapes

kuziwk said:


> I have the official released documents including the selection or cross reference chart which attempts to compare the past kits with the new ones.



Where did you get that? Can you share it?


----------



## Swedeman

joeswine said:


> How many does one need?
> there are so many ways to create a wine that you can enjoy and is yours.
> Such as taking a basic kit and blending it with a one gallon kit , think of the possibilities.


Living in a country that has ONE store selling wine kits (WE) limits the possibilities for sure. They get one shipment per year. 



sour_grapes said:


> Can you share it?


+1


----------



## kuziwk

sour_grapes said:


> Where did you get that? Can you share it?



I’m smarter than the average bear i guess . I wont post the sheets as I don’t want anyone to lose their job, however you can take my word for it being Legit. This is obviously subject to change, as I’m sure they are still having limited edition kits once a year or maybe adding some big sellers down the road. It makes sense from a marketing perspective to slim down their line for the average consumer to make it more approachable. More limited exclusives for enthusiasts like us in the slow quarters would increase sales and round the fiscal quarter out. All just my opinion though of course. I found it interesting that the super Tuscan on here looks basically identical except the for the volume to last years Passport kit, of which i bought two. 

*SIGNATURE SERIES *
14L | 6-8 WEEKS
RED Amarone Style, Italy- with grape skins Full bodied, tart cherry, raspberry hint of chocolate, spice and a long lingering finish. 14% Full MED Dry Amarone Style

Cabernet Merlot, France- with grape skins Black current, plum, dark berries, subtle mineral notes and firm structure and tannins. 13.5% Medium-Full HEAVY Dry Cab Merlot

Cabernet Sauvignon, California- with grape skins Layers of dark berry fruit, notes of spice and vanilla with plush tannins, dry finish. 14% Full HEAVY Dry Cab Sauv

Merlot, California- with grape skins Dry with big fruit flavours, rich baking spices, purple floral notes and a chocolaty finish. 14% Full MED Dry Merlot

Nebbiolo, Italy- with grape skins Intense aromas, ripe cherry, hints of leather and anise, high acidity, strong tannins. 14% Full HEAVY Dry Nebbiolo

Pinot Noir, New Zealand Fruit driven with sweet strawberry and raspberry, subtle earthy notes and an elegant finish. 13.5% Medium MED Dry Pinot Noir

Toscana, Italy- with grape skins Blackberry, black currant, hints of vanilla and spice with velvety tannins and a round finish. 14% Full HEAVY Dry Toscana

Zinfandel, California- with grape skins Aromatic, strawberry jam, ripe berries, with allspice and mocha on the finish. 14% Full LIGHT Dry Zinfandel

WHITE Chardonnay, California Yellow apple, lemon and pineapple with hints of peach and mineral notes, fresh and unoaked. 13.5% Medium-Full NONE Dry Chardonnay

Pinot Gris, Washington Well balanced with green apple, lemon zest, pear, notes of honeysuckle and bright acidity. 13% Medium NONE Dry Pinot Gris

Sauvignon Blanc, New Zealand Passion fruit, citrus zest, undertones of pink grapefruit and lemongrass with refreshing acidity. 13% Medium NONE Dry Sauv Blanc

*ESTATE SERIES*
10L | 6 WEEKS
ROUGE Amarone Style, Italy Black cherry, plum and chocolate 13.5% Full MED Dry Amarone Style

Cabernet Merlot, California Black cherry, tobacco and mint 13% Full MED Dry Cab Merlot

Cabernet Sauvignon, Australia Black currant, chocolate, bay leaf with toasted notes 13.5% Full MED Dry Cab Sau

Cabernet Shiraz, Australia Blackberry, pepper and leather and toast 13.5% Full HEAVY Dry Cab Shiraz

Carmemère, Chile Raspberry, red cherry and plum 13.5% Medium MED Dry Carmenere

Malbec, Argentina Black Plum, clove and charred wood. 13.5% Full HEAVY Dry Malbec

Merlot, California Blackberry, fruitcake and coffee. 13% Medium MED Dry Merlot

Mystic, California Smooth black cherry, vanilla and mocha 13% Medium-Full MED Off-Dry Mystic

Pinot Noir, Chile Strawberry, raspberry with vegetal character 13% Medium MED Dry Pinot Noir

Primo Rosso, Italy Ripe, dark fruit flavours and subtle spice 13.5% Full MED Dry Primo Rosso

Shiraz, Australia Black currant, dark chocolate and meaty 13.5% Full MED Dry Shiraz

Vieux Château Du Roi, France Red fruit, spice and leather notes 13% Medium-Full MED Dry Vieux Chateau du

BLANC Chardonnay, Australia Tropical fruit, ripe peach and toasted vanilla 13% Medium MED Dry Chardonnay

Gewürztraminer, Germany Floral with peach, lychee and honey 11.5% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Gewurztraminer

Pinot Grigio, Italy Green apple, citrus and crisp acidity 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Pinot Grigio

Riesling, California Apricot, mango, and high acidity 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Riesling

Sauvignon Blanc, California Citrus, peach and passion fruit 13% Light-Medium NONE Dry Sauv Blanc

Traminer Riesling, Australia Aromatic with lime, apple, honey and stonefruit 12% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Traminer Riesling

ROSÉ Grenache Rosé, Australia Red cherry, strawberry and refreshing acidity. 12% Medium NONE Dry Grenache Rose

*ORIGINAL SERIES*
8L | 4 WEEKS
RED Cabernet Sauvignon, Chile Blackberry, black raspberry and cedar 12.5% Medium-Full MED Dry Cab Sauv

Grenache Shiraz Mourvèdre, Australia Black cherry, spice and blackberry 13% Medium-Full HEAVY Dry Grenache Shiraz Mourvedre

Malbec, Chile Blackberry, black cherry and oak 13% Medium-Full MED Dry Malbec

Matador Red, Chile Ripe berries, jammy spicy notes 13% Medium-Full HEAVY Dry Matador Red

Merlot, Chile Blackberry, cherry and vanilla 13% Medium MED Dry Merlot

Pinot Noir, California Raspberry, cherry and earthy notes 12.5% Light-Medium MED Dry Pinot Noir

Sangiovese, Italy Sour cherry, strawberry, prune 13% Medium LIGHT Dry Sangiovese

Shiraz, California Black cherry, leather and spice 13% Medium-Full MED Dry Shiraz

Tempranillo, Spain Red cherry, strawberry and smoke 13% Medium MED Dry Tempranillo

Trilogy, California Toasty black cherry and blackberry 13% Medium MED Dry Trilogy

Valroza, Italy Raspberry, strawberry and plum 13% Medium LIGHT Dry Valroza

Vieux Château du Roi, California Red berries and plum 13% Medium MED Dry Vieux Chateau du Roi

WHITE Chardonnay, California Green apple, pear and apricot 12.5% Medium NONE Dry Chardonnay

Gewürztraminer, California Floral, apricot and pineapple 12% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Gewurztraminer

Liebfraumilch Style, California Citrus and peach 11.5% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Liebfraumilch Style

Moscato, California Grapey, apple and citrus 8.7% Light-Medium NONE Medium Sweet Moscato

Pinot Grigio, Italy Green apple, lemon and lime 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Pinot Grigio

Riesling, Washington Green apple, citrus and mineral notes 12% Light NONE Off-Dry Riesling

Sauvignon Blanc, Chile Herbaceous, stone fruit and tropical fruit 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Sauv Blanc

Viognier, California Tangerine, peach and rose 12% Light-Medium NONE Dry Viognier

ROSÉ White Zinfandel, California Strawberry and raspberry 11.5% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry White Zinfandel


----------



## Cellar Vader

Can't wait to find out if the Nebbiolo is a Barolo-style, or rather a Barbareso-style. And whether or not the Toscana is all Sangiovese, or rather a Super Tuscan.


----------



## joeswine

Look how the *ABV* levels are rising I remember not to long ago I was call some not so nice names because I know that the European market was all ready there ..now here we go . They understood they could make a good tasting wine with *higher alcohol levels* and still have a good product providing good balance, between fruit and body .


----------



## kuziwk

Cellar Vader said:


> Can't wait to find out if the Nebbiolo is a Barolo-style, or rather a Barbareso-style. And whether or not the Toscana is all Sangiovese, or rather a Super Tuscan.


Typically Sangiovese would be described as cherry/strawberry/red plum (red fruit). Sounds like this one is a blend just like the passport as they describe the black fruit in this one. Some Merlot and Cab Sav mixed in there...


----------



## Tatmia

kuziwk said:


> ... long listl



Well dang. Looks like I'm about to place a very expensive order and plan on drinking a lot of white wine over the next few years.


----------



## MHSKIBUM

I started making wine from Costco kits for just over two years and I agree that the best wine kits I've bought from Costco and elsewhere, and made according to the instructions provided, produce a drinkable everyday but unmemorable wine. 
One thing that vastly improved the quality, however, was to follow a suggestion made by a friend who used to be an executive at a winery.
After tasting my wine from a kit, he said the producer had stretched the amount of concentrate to its limit of acceptability to offer the consumer a 30-bottle kit. He suggested using less water in an 18 litre carboy instead the recommended 21 litre carboy. 
The smaller batch in all kits I've tried since consistently produce 25 bottles of very enjoyable wine with much richer flavours and generally have qualities match wines in Canada that cost $12-$14 (perhaps $9-$12 in the U.S.). The reds are a deep ruby best racked a minimum of 12 months.


----------



## joeswine

you need to review making cheap wine kits, it will help.


----------



## jbrown

Whew, just catching up on things as I had a backlog of kits I've been working through and life had sped on by for a while. Thanks to the current world events, I am now getting re-aligned! I just saw the new VineCo/WE websites and am a little skeptical like everyone else it seems. Hard to believe the wines will be as great with less juice being supplied. But I'm optimistic that the new formulations will still produce great wines. Keep in mind that we continue to progress technologically as a society so it's not inconceivable that similarly great wines can be produced with a smaller volume of juice.

I'm also surprised hearing about folks that haven't had good experiences making their own wines. I really feel that I only "dabble" (I'm working on my 21st batch in 5 years) so I'm no expert. But as the vast majority of kits I have made in the past have been Eclipse and Showcase kits with skins, I can say I have rarely made a batch of wine that I wouldn't put up against any $25 store-bought bottle. I have thoroughly enjoyed it and hope the new kits provide a comparable finished product.


----------



## bstnh1

kuziwk said:


> I’m smarter than the average bear i guess . I wont post the sheets as I don’t want anyone to lose their job, however you can take my word for it being Legit. This is obviously subject to change, as I’m sure they are still having limited edition kits once a year or maybe adding some big sellers down the road. It makes sense from a marketing perspective to slim down their line for the average consumer to make it more approachable. More limited exclusives for enthusiasts like us in the slow quarters would increase sales and round the fiscal quarter out. All just my opinion though of course. I found it interesting that the super Tuscan on here looks basically identical except the for the volume to last years Passport kit, of which i bought two.
> 
> *SIGNATURE SERIES *
> 14L | 6-8 WEEKS
> RED Amarone Style, Italy- with grape skins Full bodied, tart cherry, raspberry hint of chocolate, spice and a long lingering finish. 14% Full MED Dry Amarone Style
> 
> Cabernet Merlot, France- with grape skins Black current, plum, dark berries, subtle mineral notes and firm structure and tannins. 13.5% Medium-Full HEAVY Dry Cab Merlot
> 
> Cabernet Sauvignon, California- with grape skins Layers of dark berry fruit, notes of spice and vanilla with plush tannins, dry finish. 14% Full HEAVY Dry Cab Sauv
> 
> Merlot, California- with grape skins Dry with big fruit flavours, rich baking spices, purple floral notes and a chocolaty finish. 14% Full MED Dry Merlot
> 
> Nebbiolo, Italy- with grape skins Intense aromas, ripe cherry, hints of leather and anise, high acidity, strong tannins. 14% Full HEAVY Dry Nebbiolo
> 
> Pinot Noir, New Zealand Fruit driven with sweet strawberry and raspberry, subtle earthy notes and an elegant finish. 13.5% Medium MED Dry Pinot Noir
> 
> Toscana, Italy- with grape skins Blackberry, black currant, hints of vanilla and spice with velvety tannins and a round finish. 14% Full HEAVY Dry Toscana
> 
> Zinfandel, California- with grape skins Aromatic, strawberry jam, ripe berries, with allspice and mocha on the finish. 14% Full LIGHT Dry Zinfandel
> 
> WHITE Chardonnay, California Yellow apple, lemon and pineapple with hints of peach and mineral notes, fresh and unoaked. 13.5% Medium-Full NONE Dry Chardonnay
> 
> Pinot Gris, Washington Well balanced with green apple, lemon zest, pear, notes of honeysuckle and bright acidity. 13% Medium NONE Dry Pinot Gris
> 
> Sauvignon Blanc, New Zealand Passion fruit, citrus zest, undertones of pink grapefruit and lemongrass with refreshing acidity. 13% Medium NONE Dry Sauv Blanc
> 
> *ESTATE SERIES*
> 10L | 6 WEEKS
> ROUGE Amarone Style, Italy Black cherry, plum and chocolate 13.5% Full MED Dry Amarone Style
> 
> Cabernet Merlot, California Black cherry, tobacco and mint 13% Full MED Dry Cab Merlot
> 
> Cabernet Sauvignon, Australia Black currant, chocolate, bay leaf with toasted notes 13.5% Full MED Dry Cab Sau
> 
> Cabernet Shiraz, Australia Blackberry, pepper and leather and toast 13.5% Full HEAVY Dry Cab Shiraz
> 
> Carmemère, Chile Raspberry, red cherry and plum 13.5% Medium MED Dry Carmenere
> 
> Malbec, Argentina Black Plum, clove and charred wood. 13.5% Full HEAVY Dry Malbec
> 
> Merlot, California Blackberry, fruitcake and coffee. 13% Medium MED Dry Merlot
> 
> Mystic, California Smooth black cherry, vanilla and mocha 13% Medium-Full MED Off-Dry Mystic
> 
> Pinot Noir, Chile Strawberry, raspberry with vegetal character 13% Medium MED Dry Pinot Noir
> 
> Primo Rosso, Italy Ripe, dark fruit flavours and subtle spice 13.5% Full MED Dry Primo Rosso
> 
> Shiraz, Australia Black currant, dark chocolate and meaty 13.5% Full MED Dry Shiraz
> 
> Vieux Château Du Roi, France Red fruit, spice and leather notes 13% Medium-Full MED Dry Vieux Chateau du
> 
> BLANC Chardonnay, Australia Tropical fruit, ripe peach and toasted vanilla 13% Medium MED Dry Chardonnay
> 
> Gewürztraminer, Germany Floral with peach, lychee and honey 11.5% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Gewurztraminer
> 
> Pinot Grigio, Italy Green apple, citrus and crisp acidity 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Pinot Grigio
> 
> Riesling, California Apricot, mango, and high acidity 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Riesling
> 
> Sauvignon Blanc, California Citrus, peach and passion fruit 13% Light-Medium NONE Dry Sauv Blanc
> 
> Traminer Riesling, Australia Aromatic with lime, apple, honey and stonefruit 12% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Traminer Riesling
> 
> ROSÉ Grenache Rosé, Australia Red cherry, strawberry and refreshing acidity. 12% Medium NONE Dry Grenache Rose
> 
> *ORIGINAL SERIES*
> 8L | 4 WEEKS
> RED Cabernet Sauvignon, Chile Blackberry, black raspberry and cedar 12.5% Medium-Full MED Dry Cab Sauv
> 
> Grenache Shiraz Mourvèdre, Australia Black cherry, spice and blackberry 13% Medium-Full HEAVY Dry Grenache Shiraz Mourvedre
> 
> Malbec, Chile Blackberry, black cherry and oak 13% Medium-Full MED Dry Malbec
> 
> Matador Red, Chile Ripe berries, jammy spicy notes 13% Medium-Full HEAVY Dry Matador Red
> 
> Merlot, Chile Blackberry, cherry and vanilla 13% Medium MED Dry Merlot
> 
> Pinot Noir, California Raspberry, cherry and earthy notes 12.5% Light-Medium MED Dry Pinot Noir
> 
> Sangiovese, Italy Sour cherry, strawberry, prune 13% Medium LIGHT Dry Sangiovese
> 
> Shiraz, California Black cherry, leather and spice 13% Medium-Full MED Dry Shiraz
> 
> Tempranillo, Spain Red cherry, strawberry and smoke 13% Medium MED Dry Tempranillo
> 
> Trilogy, California Toasty black cherry and blackberry 13% Medium MED Dry Trilogy
> 
> Valroza, Italy Raspberry, strawberry and plum 13% Medium LIGHT Dry Valroza
> 
> Vieux Château du Roi, California Red berries and plum 13% Medium MED Dry Vieux Chateau du Roi
> 
> WHITE Chardonnay, California Green apple, pear and apricot 12.5% Medium NONE Dry Chardonnay
> 
> Gewürztraminer, California Floral, apricot and pineapple 12% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Gewurztraminer
> 
> Liebfraumilch Style, California Citrus and peach 11.5% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry Liebfraumilch Style
> 
> Moscato, California Grapey, apple and citrus 8.7% Light-Medium NONE Medium Sweet Moscato
> 
> Pinot Grigio, Italy Green apple, lemon and lime 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Pinot Grigio
> 
> Riesling, Washington Green apple, citrus and mineral notes 12% Light NONE Off-Dry Riesling
> 
> Sauvignon Blanc, Chile Herbaceous, stone fruit and tropical fruit 12.5% Light-Medium NONE Dry Sauv Blanc
> 
> Viognier, California Tangerine, peach and rose 12% Light-Medium NONE Dry Viognier
> 
> ROSÉ White Zinfandel, California Strawberry and raspberry 11.5% Light-Medium NONE Off-Dry White Zinfandel



I find this very disappointing.


----------



## joeswine

Jbrown, I think your correct if you followed my kit flows I usually cut back on the water to increase the structure ( overall). 
To the rest it's going to be the new normal and we'll either deal with it or find something else to do with all the empty carboys. Make Skeeter pee  or something else, for me less has always been more it's just. Worked out that way.


----------



## Putterrr

I was just on my local suppliers online store and they have the new WE kits listed. They are the same price and the old eclipse kits . Some of them mention grape skins. but there is no listing of the quantity of juice so not sure if they skin kits have less volume to account for the skins as the eclipse kits do. I will still wait a couple years to see what others think.

cheers


----------



## jbrown

Putterrr said:


> I was just on my local suppliers online store and they have the new WE kits listed. They are the same price and the old eclipse kits and there is no mention of grape skins in the title or the description. It gets more disappointing the more info I see. I will still wait a couple years to see what others think.
> 
> cheers



According to kuziwk's post above, it appears that the 14L red kits do include skins, although I also didn't see it mentioned on my HBS's website either.


----------



## Putterrr

My brew store says the top line red kits with skins are 13L plus 1L of skins. I'm still not buying the whole smaller is better.

cheers


----------



## Johnd

Putterrr said:


> My brew store says the top line red kits with skins are 13L plus 1L of skins. I'm still not buying the whole smaller is better.
> 
> cheers



I’m with you, I wouldn’t be falling for it either. Just the fact that the kit is more concentrated means it’s more processed, not what I’m looking for in wine.


----------



## shoebiedoo

I have always been big fan on the Selections International Australian Chardonnay and was very disappointed it was turned into a 10L kit for the same amount of money. I was able to start a new kit 1.5 months after starting al old version. side by side tasting is the only to know for sure.


----------



## Swedeman

shoebiedoo said:


> I was able to start a new kit 1.5 months after starting al old version. side by side tasting is the only to know for sure.


That will be interesting, please keep us posted on the outcome.


----------



## Swedeman

kuziwk said:


> I wont post the sheets as I don’t want anyone to lose their job, however you can take my word for it being Legit.


Their new website is up and looks like the list that kuziwk provided was legit.


----------



## szap

shoebiedoo said:


> I have always been big fan on the Selections International Australian Chardonnay and was very disappointed it was turned into a 10L kit for the same amount of money. I was able to start a new kit 1.5 months after starting al old version. side by side tasting is the only to know for sure.


Yes, do keep us posted.


----------



## joeswine

I've always said less was more.


----------



## Brian55

joeswine said:


> I've always said less was more.


I don't think many people on here are aware of how much you short the water. Maybe expand on that a bit?


----------



## joeswine

Water is the hole key ,a while back I started to decrease the volume of water per kit using the hydrometer as my guide; ex. 6 gallon kits at certain.price points did better with less water and still had good balance. (5.5) gallons to be exact

6 gallon moderate priced kits depending once again the concentration level ,I could reduce or not depending on how the hydrometer reacted.
So less is more it's just taken the manufacturer longer to catch up
Once you understand that and understand your wines profile it becomes easy, to do more with less not a lot of less but less.
The trick is always finding the balance between flavor , alcohol and finish.
what they're doing is increasing the concentration by removing more water .
Most of the kits made at cheaper price points do better when enhancements are added for that reason ( better balance). High priced kits are good almost as they are and required less enhancements so by reducing the water the structure of the wine should be better, don't worry about price the net result is you'll also get fewer bottles per kit.
Remember always to think outside the box, and less is always more, well thatsy story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## bstnh1

What are you looking for on the hydrometer?


----------



## joeswine

The brix level that will dictates the alcohol level then its up to the winemaker to build the structure . YEs.? Water is the balanceing point.
Wine making at kit level isn't hard ,I've always used the term making a sauce as a description for it.
Base +water= volume.= You,
But not structure. That's the winemakers descression.


----------



## GaDawg

Using the hydrometer reading and not the water volume is a great idea! Thanks Joe, I’ll use it on my next kit!


----------



## joeswine

GaDawg, does it make sense to you?
You control the ABV. At all times
By controlling the additional water level.
That's why in most cases you need to reconstruct the profile.


----------



## bstnh1

Structure in wine is primarily tannins and acidity. If you reduce the water called for in a kit, you automatically increase both. So how do you adjust those?


----------



## joeswine

the structure of wine has 5 basic *elements,Acidity,tannins, alcohol and sugars.* 
*your correct* , by adding the water that's expected as per MFG. you create a body and structure the wines base can be to thin to start with ,as we have learned here time after time.
By decreasing and or adding to the original structure you will be adjust the* 5 elements *not just two.
by decreasing the water I increase the tannins and acidity? *not if their not there to start with. the adjustment comes with trial and error on the winemakers part, adding tannin power or oak, berries to the primary *,that then is the adjustment so many items can come into play . EVEN in the secondary the art can still be done.


----------



## GaDawg

Joe it makes perfect sense. 
It’s all about controlling variables, and water is just another variable.
In Mist type kits ( and not just Mist kits ) I have used simple syrup to change the hydrometer,
now I have use simple syrup and water to better target SG.
A more precise starting point should give me a better end product!


----------



## joeswine

That's correct


----------



## laxarwolf

Tatmia said:


> Not sure if I have a complete list or not, but it looks like they're dropping some of the white blends while keeping the red. Trinity Red is listed but not Trinity White. Luna Rossa is listed but not Luna Bianca. Also don't see Symphony.
> 
> It's a shame for me because I haven't had a commercial white blend that I like but I love my Trinity White. Symphony turned out great and it's definitely not something I see on the wine shelves at the grocery store. I'm hoping to make a batch of Luna Bianca this year.
> 
> Definitely a shame that whites don't store like reds or I'd just make a 15-20 gallon batch of Trinity White, I'm that happy with it. I'll keep my fingers crossed that maybe my list is incomplete.



I also love trinity white and I'm not happy with the new line up. At least they kept Diablo Rojo...


----------



## Tatmia

laxarwolf said:


> I also love trinity white and I'm not happy with the new line up. At least they kept Diablo Rojo...


I grabbed another TW along with a Luna Bianca and will make them this fall. 

i know that RJS has the Trio White and I’ll be trying it next year.


----------



## BernardSmith

joeswine said:


> the structure of wine has 5 basic *elements,Acidity,tannins, alcohol and sugars.*.



Whoa Nelly, You say, FIVE elements but then you list only FOUR. Is the fifth viscosity or mouthfeel  or is the fifth a secret?


----------



## bstnh1

BernardSmith said:


> Whoa Nelly, You say, FIVE elements but then you list only FOUR. Is the fifth viscosity or mouthfeel  or is the fifth a secret?


He missed "body".


----------



## joeswine

Thanks for the update and yes it should have been 4.


----------



## Digital-monk

I have purchased a few of the new cellarcraft kits. My LBS explained that they invested in new equipment that enabled them to introduce less heat to the process. Also the old process they had to introduce water after the concentrate to flush the lines, but the new system doesn’t require this. Not sure if it’s new pumps or shorter lines or what. Other than the volume the kits seemed unchanged I’ll let you know in a couple weeks when I go to bottle.


----------



## kuziwk

Picked up a VINECO signature red and an original series white, guess I'm a guinea pig here aswell. I was told the whites don't have that sickly yellow color anymore that one could assume occurs from the high heat pasteurization.


----------



## GaDawg

kuziwk said:


> Picked up a VINECO signature red and an original series white, guess I'm a guinea pig here aswell. I was told the whites don't have that sickly yellow color anymore that one could assume occurs from the high heat pasteurization.


Please let us know how your new kits progress.


----------



## shoebiedoo

shoebiedoo said:


> I have always been big fan on the Selections International Australian Chardonnay and was very disappointed it was turned into a 10L kit for the same amount of money. I was able to start a new kit 1.5 months after starting al old version. side by side tasting is the only to know for sure.





szap said:


> Yes, do keep us posted.




I'm kegging the new 10L kit of WE Australian Chardonnay. I used the same technique on both batches. Racked to secondary at 1.010 and followed fermentation with 2 months of Battenege, followed my finishing for 2 weeks. While there IS a difference I think it comes down to preference. The mouth feel between the older kit and new one was very similar. Body is also very closed. Where they differed was the finish. The Older kit had a bolder, sharper finish then the newer one. My wife was a HUGE fan of the older kits, to the point where it was hard to get her to buy any commercial bottles. To my surprise (and relief) in a blind taste test she preferred the newer batch! Her assessment was the same as mine regarding he finish. I will admit I preferred the older 16L Kit. Luckley, she's the one I have to please LOL


----------



## Rocky

Color me pessimistic on this issue. I don't see how making the kit smaller, i.e. removing more of the water from the juice, improves the wine. If that were so, would not their 7L and 10L kits of the past been better than their 18L kits? Something here does not compute.

That said, I will probably try ONE of the new Reserve kits just to see for myself.


----------



## shoebiedoo

Rocky said:


> Color me pessimistic on this issue. I don't see how making the kit smaller, i.e. removing more of the water from the juice, improves the wine. If that were so, would not their 7L and 10L kits of the past been better than their 18L kits? Something here does not compute.
> 
> That said, I will probably try ONE of the new Reserve kits just to see for myself.


Like i said, there was a difference. The finish was NOT as bold in the 10L kit! It's a fluke that my wife prefers it LOL I prefer the older one myself. Sounds like we need to get together and see for our selves LOL


----------



## bstnh1

Rocky said:


> Color me pessimistic on this issue. I don't see how making the kit smaller, i.e. removing more of the water from the juice, improves the wine. If that were so, would not their 7L and 10L kits of the past been better than their 18L kits? Something here does not compute.
> 
> That said, I will probably try ONE of the new Reserve kits just to see for myself.


I agree. I've read WE's explanations and justifications for the smaller sizes and I don't believe their objective was to produce an improved kit. My guess is the only improvement is in Global Vintner's bottom line. I bought a few kits before the shrunken ones hit the shelves, so it'll be awhile before I get to try one.


----------



## sremick

bstnh1 said:


> I agree. I've read WE's explanations and justifications for the smaller sizes and I don't believe their objective was to produce an improved kit. My guess is the only improvement is in Global Vintner's bottom line.


Same here. I'm done with WE and future kits will be from other companies.


----------



## GaDawg

I think the new WE Private Reserve Kits should be compared to something like the En Primeur Winery Series from RJS


----------



## pillswoj

GaDawg said:


> I think the new WE Private Reserve Kits should be compared to something like the En Primeur Winery Series from RJS


That is definitely the comparison thats needed, I had already found I preferred the En Primeur kits over the Eclipse kits so I am not inclined to try the Private reserve.


----------



## bstnh1

Digital-monk said:


> I have purchased a few of the new cellarcraft kits. My LBS explained that they invested in new equipment that enabled them to introduce less heat to the process. Also the old process they had to introduce water after the concentrate to flush the lines, but the new system doesn’t require this. Not sure if it’s new pumps or shorter lines or what. Other than the volume the kits seemed unchanged I’ll let you know in a couple weeks when I go to bottle.


Sounds like the same line Winexpert is using. I didn't realize Cellarcraft had shrunk their kits too!


----------



## sour_grapes

bstnh1 said:


> Sounds like the same line Winexpert is using. I didn't realize Cellarcraft had shrunk their kits too!



CellarCraft and WineXpert are both part of the same parent (Vineco) now...


----------



## sremick

sour_grapes said:


> CellarCraft and WineXpert are both part of the same parent (Vineco) now...


----------



## bstnh1

Just started a WE Classic Moscato. Had to add 4 1/2 gallons of water!!! The F-Pack is rather large but c'mon ...... adding 4 1/2 gallons of water to a 6 gallon kit. The box says it contains 2.11 gallons. Hard to believe, because although the F-Pack is big, it's certainly not the same volume as the main juice bag. My starting SG was 1.072. Anyone else made this kit since WE shrunk it??


----------



## winemaker81

I have a WE Australian Cabernet Sauvignon and Australian Chardonnay in production, using the reformulated kits. Just did the first racking and they look and taste fine. However, unless I had an earlier version of either wine, I can't honestly compare it.


----------



## joeswine

I have the sauvignon blanc with a torch of peach just coming off the primary. Got so clearing work todo, it should be very good.


----------



## gerryd

the equivalent of the World Vineyard kits have a new smaller box.
less juice, same price.
less juice = more water = weaker or more diluted wine
I was very happy with the old world vineyard kits, I thought they were the best bang for the buck
the option I have is to make less wine with the smaller amount of juice.
I will probably stop buying this product, and go elsewhere.


----------



## bstnh1

gerryd said:


> the equivalent of the World Vineyard kits have a new smaller box.
> less juice, same price.
> less juice = more water = weaker or more diluted wine
> I was very happy with the old world vineyard kits, I thought they were the best bang for the buck
> the option I have is to make less wine with the smaller amount of juice.
> I will probably stop buying this product, and go elsewhere.


I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.


----------



## Venatorscribe

bstnh1 said:


> I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.


That sounds interesting. i wouldn’t mind reading about the process. Do you have a link. cheers for the information.


----------



## jsbeckton

bstnh1 said:


> I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.



Not sure what you have read but it was my understanding that the new kits have less juice and still are supposed to net 6 gallons?


----------



## joeswine

No matter what, you'll get 24 bottles of wine out of it.
Now the question is what quality and what did you do to to it ?


----------



## bstnh1

Venatorscribe said:


> That sounds interesting. i wouldn’t mind reading about the process. Do you have a link. cheers for the information.



I have no idea where I read that.  But what I recall is that a more concentrated juice (more water removed) results in a higher brix. A concentrate of higher brix requires less pasteurization and supposedly results in a better wine. Here's a link to an explanation of the different volumes of juice and/or concentrate in wine kits. It's not directly related to the reduction in size of the winexpert kits, but it's good background info.
Understanding the Different Sizes of Wine Kits - WineMakerMag.com.


----------



## joeswine

The proof is in the final results, no matter what the size of the kit it's the quality of the base that matters, as far as cost goes these new wine expert kits as very good ( the new ones) .
The spagnols limited edition are very good, regardless of volume.
On the cheaper kits it just fun and creativity that comes into play.
Regardless of the kit and price the 24 to 26 bottles is what you'll end up with what that tastes like is up to you .


----------



## bstnh1

joeswine said:


> The proof is in the final results, no matter what the size of the kit it's the quality of the base that matters, as far as cost goes these new wine expert kits as very good ( the new ones) .
> The spagnols limited edition are very good, regardless of volume.
> On the cheaper kits it just fun and creativity that comes into play.
> Regardless of the kit and price the 24 to 26 bottles is what you'll end up with what that tastes like is up to you .



I know you short the water, but why so much? I normally don't short water at all and if I top up I use a similar wine. I wind up with 28-30 bottles with ABV about 12% or a bit more.


----------



## sremick

For years we've been told that the reason these "premium" kits were so much better was because they screwed around with the original juice less, not removing as much water. That's why they were bigger, that's why there was more juice in the box, that's why we had to add less water, that's why we were paying more.

Now suddenly we're supposed to believe everything they told us for years was nonsense and guess what, they _can _actually concentrate it just as much as the cheap kits, but somehow they are still "premium" kits that warrant a premium price. Basically, selling us the exact same product as the old cheap kits but charging us for the premium kits.

I'm not buying it. In both senses of the term.


----------



## winemaker81

sremick said:


> Now suddenly we're supposed to believe everything they told us for years was nonsense and guess what, they _can _actually concentrate it just as much as the cheap kits


Supposedly the new process makes the difference. I'm skeptical as well.

That said, I have Winexpert Australian Cabernet Sauvignon and Australian Chardonnay in process. At the fining step, the Cabernet is very rich and my prognosis is that I'll be happy with the result.


----------



## cmason1957

I purchased the new Style WineExpert Primitivo kit and I likewise have been very happy with the results so far.


----------



## joeswine

sremick said:


> For years we've been told that the reason these "premium" kits were so much better was because they screwed around with the original juice less, not removing as much water. That's why they were bigger, that's why there was more juice in the box, that's why we had to add less water, that's why we were paying more.
> 
> Now suddenly we're supposed to believe everything they told us for years was nonsense and guess what, they _can _actually concentrate it just as much as the cheap kits, but somehow they are still "premium" kits that warrant a premium price. Basically, selling us the exact same product as the old cheap kits but charging us for the premium kits.
> 
> I'm not buying it. In both senses of the term.


----------



## BABRU

There is water in any juice. If you get a 6 gal juice bucket you are juice straight from the fruit - not concentrated. In any 6 gal kit you are getting 6 gal of juice that has been concentrated. The new kit is just more concentrated.


----------



## joeswine

It all depends on the winemakers process.
1.I've never have topped off .
2. Always Racked down 
3.Used nitrogen as a cap
I learned how to create a good balance in my final product.the difference's in taste profiles of each wine what yeast work best and in conjunction with others.
When I worked with juice ( buckets) they were all the same in the end.
When I moved on to kits I became a Chef and started creating my own wine.
There is a balance between flavor, body aroma and acholo that ,for me is easier and more rewarding ,not to say creative
So yes less is more, there doing something I've been doing for years and winning competitions with. Cost to me isn't everything., I've done the same with $49 fallout kits .it's all about the Base and the Process.


----------



## bstnh1

Fresh grapes contain about 90% water.


----------



## joeswine

And that's what we call fermentation or boil off were concentrating the juice down.
As well as producing acholo


----------



## gerryd

bstnh1 said:


> I'm not sure the new kits contain less juice. As I understand it, the old production method required that water be added to the pasteurized juice. So you were getting some percentage of plain, old H2O. And from what I've been reading, the new production method does not require that water be added to the juice. Ergo .... same amount of juice, but with less water added.


The proof is in the pudding.
So today I bottled a 'new' batch of WE pinot noir, (29 bottles) which I have had before with good success.
This new batch is diluted - a very light wine -this new kit is probably ok if you only make 23-25 bottles
from WE perspective:
less juice and same price = more profit


----------



## Swedeman

gerryd said:


> Less juice and same price = more profit


There isn't less juice in their kits now, they do contain a smaller volume of more concentrated juice than before. But after you *add back* the volume of water they have removed during the concentration process, you will again end up with a single strength juice, the starting point, with a Brix of roughly 20-25. 

Also, as they start with 23 liter of grape juice, their cost is the same regardless of how much they concentrate the juice. It's the quality of the grape juice that puts the price tag on the kit. Obviously, they save money on shipping, less energy needed for pasteurization etc. 

You guys are implying that they have replaced part of the grape juice with water and sugar when you say "less juice". If it is like you say, that the kit now is good for 4-6 bottles less, that's up 4,5 liter less grape juice. Instead of starting with 23 liter juice, they start with ~19 liter juice, ~4 liter water and the needed amount of sugar so you get the intended Brix.


----------



## Old Corker

Swedeman said:


> It's the quality of the grape juice that puts the price tag on the kit.


This has been my assumption as well. Plus these high end kits all come with skins (except for the NZ Pinot Noir) which changes the formula of the must and the approach to making it. For me anyway.
Then again, I could just be a sucker for slick advertising.


----------



## jumby

Is the grape pack the same size as previous kits, or did they cheap out on that too?


----------



## bstnh1

From "justfinewines": _The smaller format wine kit has a higher brix (sugar content) which results in a more stable product. A more stable product allows for less pasteurization time which results in improved colour, aromatics and taste – all of which adds up to better wine!_


----------



## sremick

BABRU said:


> There is water in any juice. If you get a 6 gal juice bucket you are juice straight from the fruit - not concentrated. In any 6 gal kit you are getting 6 gal of juice that has been concentrated. The new kit is just more concentrated.





bstnh1 said:


> Fresh grapes contain about 90% water.





bstnh1 said:


> From "justfinewines": _The smaller format wine kit has a higher brix (sugar content) which results in a more stable product. A more stable product allows for less pasteurization time which results in improved colour, aromatics and taste – all of which adds up to better wine!_


All this avoids the point I made earlier that these same companies have been selling different tiers for years:

"Economy" tier that is very concentrated (you need to add more water)
"Premium" tier that is not as concentrated, and costs more.

We all know they produce the same amount of end product, that's not the point. The story we've been fed is that "premium" was worth it because it produced better wine, hence the higher cost. Now they're doing to the "premium" the same processing they did to the "economy", but still trying to charge the premium price meanwhile feeding us some BS marketing spin to try and rewrite history and justify it.


----------



## cmason1957

sremick said:


> All this avoids the point I made earlier that these same companies have been selling different tiers for years:
> 
> "Economy" tier that is very concentrated (you need to add more water)
> "Premium" tier that is not as concentrated, and costs more.
> 
> We all know they produce the same amount of end product, that's not the point. The story we've been fed is that "premium" was worth it because it produced better wine, hence the higher cost. Now they're doing to the "premium" the same processing they did to the "economy", but still trying to charge the premium price meanwhile feeding us some BS marketing spin to try and rewrite history and justify it.



I think you are somewhat incorrect in saying they are doing the "premium" the same processing. The Premium kits still start out with less concentration, than the economy level.


----------



## Swedeman

sremick said:


> We all know they produce the same amount of end product, that's not the point. The story we've been fed is that "premium" was worth it because it produced better wine, hence the higher cost. Now they're doing to the "premium" the same processing they did to the "economy", but still trying to charge the premium price meanwhile feeding us some BS marketing spin to try and rewrite history and justify it.


The amount of end product isn't the point, I agree on that. Admittedly, I was surprised when they increased the concentration level given how they have marketed their products. 

Still I think the quality of the grape juice is a factor than seems to be forgotten here. The reason the premium costs more is not because that they are less concentrated than the economy kits, it's because the juice costs more (Napa valley grape juice vs red wine Italian style). And increasing concentration level would still require the same amount of grape juice to start with so no cost reduction there.


----------



## wineh

There's a problem with Winexpert's new mantra "less juice means less pasteurization, because more concentrate has higher brix" 
Taken to its logical conclusion, the best kits should be the 5 litre 100% concentrate kits because they require zero pasteurization. Think about it for a while.


----------



## joeswine

The proof is in the outcome


----------



## wineh

joeswine said:


> The proof is in the outcome


I have both an eclipse and a private reserve stag's leap merlot going right now. So far it's not looking good for the new one. Lower in specific gravity. Smells great.


----------



## joeswine

May I ask did you follow the process or your hydrometer?
I made the eclipse Merlot and it's as good as it can be.
Breakdown the taste profile, and body if you will for me.


----------



## winemaker81

Initial SG for a kit is a range that varies from batch to batch, plus it varies depending on how the kit is reconstituted.

My WE Australian Cabernet Sauvignon and Australian Chardonnay both had a good initial SG. Both smell and taste good (acknowledging they are very green). While I'm skeptical of WE's marketing .... so far, the kits are good.


----------



## joeswine

All these kits are the same yet different , they all are a concentrate of one volume or another ,its up to you the winemaker to take the kit in the direction you want it to go, first you need to know* THE WINES PROFILE what should i be tasting? now that i read about that ,HOW DO I WANT IT TO TASTE? ,*
*WHAT ACHOLO LEVEL DO I WANT?Whats my plan? ** . a lot of this comes with years of trial and error* i understand that "no problem".
If price is a problem then go to the moderate priced kits,you can really experiment on them or the cheaper $40 to$60 dollar kits.


----------



## Venatorscribe

wineh said:


> There's a problem with Winexpert's new mantra "less juice means less pasteurization, because more concentrate has higher brix"
> Taken to its logical conclusion, the best kits should be the 5 litre 100% concentrate kits because they require zero pasteurization. Think about it for a while.


Interesting. I haven't done what you suggested ie stopped to think about it - but is your hypothetical Brix reading after dilution? I haven't seen these new kits in New Zealand yet. First shipments aren’t due until mid month ( shipping COVID go slow). but as I drink red, I wouldn't seriously be drinking or sharing this wine for a few years, assuming I am still padding around earth.


----------



## joeswine

You know , people's idea of ageing is very different from area to culture and they all drink Young wines and allow wines too age, it's all subjective to ones taste and adility to store or affordable.
Kit wines and that's what we're talking about here , Reds of a good quality kit and I'm not talking about the top of the line is about 1 to 2 years ,higher prices kits 1 to 5 years .
That all depends on your sanatation.
The question is the new kit cost any better ? I think it has more body and definitely if done correctly ( let your hydrometer be your guide) deliver a better bottle of wine in a shorter time, that's just my findings.


----------



## sour_grapes

Venatorscribe said:


> Interesting. I haven't done what you suggested ie stopped to think about it - but is your hypothetical Brix reading after dilution? I haven't seen these new kits in New Zealand yet. First shipments aren’t due until mid month ( shipping COVID go slow). but as I drink red, I wouldn't seriously be drinking or sharing this wine for a few years, assuming I am still padding around earth.



I am not @wineh, but it is pretty clear in the context of this thread that we were referring to the Brix before dilution. Really high Brix reduces water activity and renders food less prone to spoilage (think honey or jam).


----------



## joeswine

It's not hypothetical, it is what it is, the delusion rate depends on you.
If you've taken notice the ABVS on these kits as is the acholo level in European wines have risen up.
I believe this is what there also trying to do, but know matter how you splice it the product is better, in my opinion however I tend to miniver my wine to make it what I want as most grape winemakers do
The process to some may seem day and night, but it's not that far off.


----------



## winemaker81

sour_grapes said:


> but it is pretty clear in the context of this thread that we were referring to the Brix before dilution. Really high Brix reduces water activity and renders food less prone to spoilage (think honey or jam).


I disagree regarding clear context, partially because it never occurred to me to check the brix of the juice/concentrate. I know the brix is good if I get a good SG when I reconstitute the kit, so the brix of the kit is (for me) unnecessary information.

Spoilage has not crossed my mind, either. I've made 3 year old kits successfully, as the kits were stored properly. One kit was a dessert wine -- 100% juice -- that worked out fine at nearly 2 years old. Spoilage has not been considered, given my experiences.

That said, it makes sense that a more concentrated kit will better survive less than optimal storage conditions, for the reasons given.

Text is the most difficult form of communication. It can take a lot of text to establish context, as there is no body language or voice patterns to read. Add in terse exchanges by a dozen people with different interpretations of what has been written .... it ain't easy.


----------



## Venatorscribe

sour_grapes said:


> I am not @wineh, but it is pretty clear in the context of this thread that we were referring to the Brix before dilution. Really high Brix reduces water activity and renders food less prone to spoilage (think honey or jam).


Keep your hair on chum. FYI it’s not a 'clearly' moment. There is little point measuring Brix pre dilution. out of curiosity I did it once. I recall it was something like 67 degrees. So really it is a waste of time. But the interesting little factoid— after adding the measured amount of water - is their any significant shift or difference to Brix compared to the previous kit arrangement. And or - why are we sweating this. We know where we want to start - just do it. And we‘ll have no real measure of quality for at least two or more years.


----------



## sour_grapes

Venatorscribe said:


> Keep your hair on chum. FYI it’s not a 'clearly' moment.



???????


----------



## pillswoj

My understanding of the process is that the manufacturer concentrates everything to the same level(brix), then the higher end kits get juice added back into them with the bigger kits being a larger % of juice. The question is whether WE is using the same level of juice in the high end kits (with a more concentrated concentrate) or did they reduce the juice in the kits.

From the RJS website:

The Wine Kit Bladder RJS Kits range from 4 litres - 23 litres (approx. 1 gal - 6 gal) Includes juice and concentrate- Juice = stabilized juice- Concentrate = juice where water content has been removed; must be reconstituted with fresh, soft water to required volume for making wineEntry level kits are primarily concentrate. The higher the price / tier, the more juice and less concentrate. Juice generally contributes more varietal characteristics. The juice and concentrate are blended and balanced in our production facilities, pasteurized, and packaged.


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## joeswine

I guess the end result is don't buy it if you don't want to or learn to take a cheaper wine kit and make it better ,,,there the choices I guess which do you choose  or not.
On this forum we've talked about higher ABVS. , Using less water , structure , aroma, taste profile and the wonderful world of wine making. It's all subjective the final question is do you like what you produce is that enough for you then so be it.
If not then think outside the box.


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## skyfire322

Maybe I'm missing the mark, but this is all marketing. I work in marketing in the music industry and see it every single day. Here some examples:

A guitar company could make two of the same guitars, one of which has different pickups, wiring, and fancy designs. What will they do? They'll only make 100 of them, slap a "limited edition" on the headstock, then mark the price up by $500. But if you have the know how, you could spend an extra $100 for the pickups used in the "limited edition" guitar, and make that cheaper guitar sound very similar.

Another example: there are two tube compressors, which sound exactly the same but one literally costs $750 more because it uses better electronics. The only difference is that one has the history of being used in recordings like Dark Side of the Moon, while the other was used to record some weekend warrior who only plays at dive bars. Even though the mix sounds the same, but the songs are polar opposites, which one would people want to gravitate to? The one that has the iconic name.

I'll use the music industry as the TL;DR:
Yes, you can nitpick in the fine details like electronics or what wood or power tubes is being used, but if it sounds good to you and others can't tell the difference, who cares? I'd rather spend a little less, deal with the fact that I don't have the Rolls-Royce, but know that I've created something that's almost exactly the same and call it a day.


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## winemaker81

@skyfire322, it occurred to me, after reading your post, that this change in formulation is not a SNAFU for Winexpert, it's a marketing bonanza.

I think back to New Coke. GAWD! was there controversy when Coca-Cola publicly changes the formulation for Coke. People were up in arms and swearing -- it was a disastrous change, and "classic coke" was back on the market 77 days later. But in retrospect, it was tremendous marketing Coca-Cola was losing market share to Pepsi, and this campaign put them back up front for a while. Suicidally dangerous marketing, but in the end, a positive result.

The WE reformulation is not that dangerous, so let's look at this results here on WMT:

This thread currently has 177 replies ... and *14,000* views, which obviously includes a lot of folks who are reading but not posting. Look at the forum listing -- 2 old threads (_Tweaking Cheap Kits_ and _Thinking Outside the Box_, both started by @joeswine) have more views, but the newest is 5 years old. Most threads have, at most, a few hundred views. Non-kit wine makers are hearing about WE. Negative criticism may be the fastest way to spread word of anything.

Sure, a lot of folks will stop buying WE, for many reasons. And a lot are looking at it from the POV of "does the change make any difference?". People will post their results, and the final result will be that the kits are fine.

Is this intentional by WE? I doubt it -- IMO their plan was to put a positive spin on the kit size reduction.


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## BABRU

Only theorizing but my guess is WE did significant testing to be sure the change in kit size would not result in a negative change in finished wine quality with their goal being to reduce shipping cost which would be a competitive advantage. The new product may even produce a better quality wine, but customer resistance to change and the unscientific customer “taste test” could resurrect the old original packaging. Fun topic at least. Let’s stay safe, healthy and keep up our supplies of good wine!


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## Chinook

winemaker81 said:


> WineXpert has changed the description of their Island Mist series -- in the past they included the base grape variety, but that was not in the descriptions when I purchased a kit last month.



I made a Black Cherry with the New VineCo line Kit, Niagra Mist Series. I saw that none of the descriptions had the base grape variety. However through net research I found the base for this was_ Pinot Noir._ I think I got the information from a reseller site. I found the base for Green Apple was _Sauvignon Blanc_ in another site. However I have been unable to find a site that gives a comprehensive list. I was unable to find the base for the _Green Apple Kiwi Pear Special Edition_ Mix.
...
I always boost the ABV to about 12 percent for these F-Pack Kits and put 20 percent of the F-Pack in the primary. . . I think the F-pack is the reason for buying these kits. It's something I can't imitate though I have tried frozen fruit juice etc.
...
I am now trying a Chardonay (Australian) from the Vinco series (Wineexpert) It was the higher grade at about $115 Canadian. Yeah I was surprised that a high end 6 week kit had only 15 litres.. I was also surprised to see two oak packs (one granular , one chips) in the kit. I put them both in the primary I had thought oaking was only for Reds. I think I saw comments preferring RJS kits, but the I think the store I deal with only has only VineCo and Mosti Mondiale.


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## bstnh1

The Green Apple used to be Green Apple Riesling. I made it many times.


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## Chinook

bstnh1 said:


> The Green Apple used to be Green Apple Riesling. I made it many times.


Maybe it still is. I don't have a verifiable source. 
Green Apple is my favorite of all the fruit wine kits. I just tried a limited edition Green Apple-Kiwi-Pear. This one I experiemtned at using 40 percent of the F-PAck in the primary Maybe too much, I'm not sure - an experiment. I usually use 20 percent to lessen the final sweetness. I boosted the SG to 1.094 for a final ABV of 13.995 which becomes 13.45 after factoring in the addtion of the F-Pack.


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## winemaker81

bstnh1 said:


> The Green Apple used to be Green Apple Riesling. I made it many times.


I chaptalized the Green Apple / Riesling to 11% when I made it in 2011. In 2018, when the last 2 bottles were consumed, it was going strong -- still had that nice, crisp apple taste.


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## Lwrightjs

So it's been a few months and I've seen these on the shelf at the LHBS. What's the verdict so far? Does anyone have a kit aging? I know that kits arent good until 2 years, but surely there's some experience with them so far.


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## sour_grapes

Lwrightjs said:


> So it's been a few months and I've seen these on the shelf at the LHBS. What's the verdict so far? Does anyone have a kit aging? I know that kits arent good until 2 years, but surely there's some experience with them so far.



I have been plowing through a 14L Chardonnay (Sonoma Dry Creek Valley). I think it is as good as the 16L Chards I have made before.


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## Swedeman

sour_grapes said:


> I have been plowing through a 14L Chardonnay (Sonoma Dry Creek Valley). I think it is as good as the 16L Chards I have made before.


Out of curiosity, you haven't done the 18 liter Eclipse Sonoma Dry Creek Valley Chardonnay before? If you noticed any difference between the new 14 liter vs its 18 liter predecessor.


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## winemaker81

Lwrightjs said:


> What's the verdict so far?


I started 10 liter Australian Chardonnay and Australian Cabernet Sauvignon at the beginning of September. Both taste & smell what I'd expect from a green wine, and I don't see any quality issues.

Without tasting side-by-side with the older kits, I don't believe anyone will be able to definitively spot a difference between the old and new kits.


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## sour_grapes

Swedeman said:


> Out of curiosity, you haven't done the 18 liter Eclipse Sonoma Dry Creek Valley Chardonnay before? If you noticed any difference between the new 14 liter vs its 18 liter predecessor.



No, sadly, no apples-to-apples from me...


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## Lwrightjs

sour_grapes said:


> No, sadly, no apples-to-apples from me...


Grapes-to-grapes? 

Thanks for the follow up. I know everyone is io in arms about it, but kits do keep getting better every year, so it makes sense that they've learned at least a little bit since these kits were introduced several years ago.


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## Chinook

Vineco, The Green Apple - Kiwi Pear (Special Edition) had labels inside. The Green Apple did not. I suspect the rest of the Niagara Mist Kits do not have labels. 
I just bottled the Special Edition about 10 days ago I chaptalized the ABV to 14 percent (ABV 1.096) , and I added about 40 percent of the FPack to the must thus reducing the level of final sweetness. Final ABV taking into account adding the FPAck calculates as 13.6
...
Interestingly, I think the fermentation may have stalled or who knows. I ended up adding some yeast nutrient and yeast energizer for a number of days going way over the usual one week fermentation period - about 12 -13 days. I hope that was benign. Maybe the temperature dropped as the weather changed or perhaps something about adding the FPAck to the must.
It had the kind of lees that don't settle easily to a solid. I racked the carboy once before final racking and filtering.
..
I tested 10 ml of the result as I was bottling - Sweetness level and taste seems quite alright. I think I drank the over extra as well which was a very small amount. 
I was concerned I reduced it too much Sugar is needed to bring out any fruit taste. Usually I use 20 percent of the F-PAck in the must. This was an experiment. The F-Pack here was a little smaller 1050-1100 ml, usually it is 1200 ml, in thee kits according to my measurements. ... but maybe more concentrated. My measuring instruments/cups are not perfect but they are standardized in relation to constant use.


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## bstnh1

I just bottled one of the new WE "Classic" California Moscato kits. I have not made a Moscato of any kind before, so I can't compare it to the older version. The ABV came out a bit higher (9.4) than stated on the WE site (8.5) with no changes and it tasted fantastic - very smooth at bottling.


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## Chinook

Chinook said:


> Vineco, The Green Apple - Kiwi Pear (Special Edition) had labels inside. The Green Apple did not. I suspect the rest of the Niagara Mist Kits do not have labels.
> I just bottled the Special Edition about 10 days ago I chaptalized the ABV to 14 percent (ABV 1.096) , and I added about 40 percent of the FPack to the must thus reducing the level of final sweetness. Final ABV taking into account adding the FPAck calculates as 13.6
> ...
> Interestingly, I think the fermentation may have stalled or who knows. I ended up adding some yeast nutrient and yeast energizer for a number of days going way over the usual one week fermentation period - about 12 -13 days. I hope that was benign. Maybe the temperature dropped as the weather changed or perhaps something about adding the FPAck to the must.
> It had the kind of lees that don't settle easily to a solid. I racked the carboy once before final racking and filtering.
> ..
> I tested 10 ml of the result as I was bottling - Sweetness level and taste seems quite alright. I think I drank the over extra as well which was a very small amount.
> I was concerned I reduced it too much Sugar is needed to bring out any fruit taste. Usually I use 20 percent of the F-PAck in the must. This was an experiment. The F-Pack here was a little smaller 1050-1100 ml, usually it is 1200 ml, in thee kits according to my measurements. ... but maybe more concentrated. My measuring instruments/cups are not perfect but they are standardized in relation to constant use.


OK, looking at my notes,* I definitely had a stuck fermentation.* After doing some reading here, I'm pretty sure it was because the F-pack probably had sulfides.
Usually my Fruit wines and F-packs just race to .990, so this was unusual. I used more of the Fpack in the primary than usual and the nature of this Fpack may have been different in this _Special Edition_. So perhaps I needed to watch it more carefully adding more yeast nutrient or adding the Fpack quantity bit by bit.
So that was interesting, it never happened before.


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## Swedeman

Chinook said:


> OK, looking at my notes,* I definitely had a stuck fermentation.*


What was the FG? Also, which yeast were you using?


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## Chinook

Swedeman said:


> What was the FG? Also, which yeast were you using?


Same kit yeast as usual the EC1118. I would not want to change it
Found it stuck on the seventh day, I am so used to everything racing to .990 I usually don't even bother taking the SG til day 6 or 7. 
On day 7 I found the SG far too high, didn't log it, However I do keep a detailed notebook logging every batch details. I thought perhaps the room had chilled with weather change - immediately added yeast stuff and put heater in room. 
Day 8 it was 1,024 , 
It went down thereafter in slow decrements. I added yeast energizer and nutrient every day after I found it stuck and kept the room heated.
Day 13 transferred to carboy SG was .999 , *TWO WEEKS!* day 22 SG was .992 *Three Weeks* , was same the next day as then I did the stabilization.
So that is quite a long one. Four week kit became almost 7 weeks.
Never had such a long one before , I sampled 10 ml as bottling, taste seemed good.


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## winemaker81

@Chinook, I would not expect the F-Pack to contain enough sulfite to significantly impact EC-1118, as the fun wines I've made include the normal sulfite package. But the F-Pack isn't designed to be fermented, so you may be on the right track in suspecting it as the source of the problem.

In addition, a temperature drop may have serious effects. I've experienced stuck fermentation from a 10 degree F drop, so that may be your cause. Or Mother Nature may have simply decided to toy with you a bit.  

A long fermentation isn't a bad one, just a bit nerve wracking. If it went into the bottle tasting good, it appears you have a successful conclusion!


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## bstnh1

I ferment down to .992 and have always found that the time to get there is simply unpredictable. Sometimes it gets there in 7 or 8 days. Other times it can take 2 weeks. As long as it gets there, I don't worry about it. As for the 4 week kits .... I have never had one ready to bottle in 4 weeks.


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## Chinook

winemaker81 said:


> @Chinook, I would not expect the F-Pack to contain enough sulfite to significantly impact EC-1118, as the fun wines I've made include the normal sulfite package. But the F-Pack isn't designed to be fermented, so you may be on the right track in suspecting it as the source of the problem.
> 
> In addition, a temperature drop may have serious effects. I've experienced stuck fermentation from a 10 degree F drop, so that may be your cause. Or Mother Nature may have simply decided to toy with you a bit.
> 
> A long fermentation isn't a bad one, just a bit nerve wracking. If it went into the bottle tasting good, it appears you have a successful conclusion!


OK thanks for the feedback from your experience.
I've made about 10 or more of these from several different brands all augmented to about 12 to 13 percent ABV and this is the first time ever I had any trouble and my first ever stuck fermentation.
...
It must have been the Fall season temperature drop as the primary cause and I wasn't paying attention. It was very weird and worrying. This _*"Limited Edition"*_ _'Green Apple -Kiwi-Pear"_ was a test because I also bought the Wine Expert _Green Apple_ which is my favorite of this type.
...
I did a 40 percent in the must instead of my usual 20 and I'll wait a bit longer to test the results before I decide how to do the Green Apple. 
I'm trying to find the minimal sweetness level that will still bring out the strong fruit flavour. I was reading here and I saw many others use a 50-50 ratio, I think that is too much, it might take away too much of the fruit flavour. I had been using 20-80 which is OK but maybe too sweet to be a crowd pleaser. but I will see how 40-60 works out.


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## Chinook

bstnh1 said:


> I ferment down to .992 and have always found that the time to get there is simply unpredictable. Sometimes it gets there in 7 or 8 days. Other times it can take 2 weeks. As long as it gets there, I don't worry about it. As for the 4 week kits .... I have never had one ready to bottle in 4 weeks.


How do you decide it is not ready? Two weeks is very very unusual for my experience, I cover my primary pails with towels to keep out sunlight and I suppose that also makes it warmer. 
I usually have a clarified kit wine ready for final processing by 4 weeks unless I'm busy and don't have time. 
...
I usually use the fining agents in the kit (K + C) at the end of the second week but then I will add an additonal fining agent of my own (sparkloid) at the end of week three. Sparkloid , I think does the best job , so I use it to do some extra cleaning.
. Usually I stabilize by the end of week 2. I just stabilized a 6 week Vineco Chardonnay - that was at day 16.


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## Swedeman

winemaker81 said:


> But the F-Pack isn't designed to be fermented, so you may be on the right track in suspecting it as the source of the problem.


I really doubts that's the reason, the temperature drop, as suggested, is more likely the cause of slow-ish fermentation. Or perhaps a bad package of yeast .
Let us *assume *that the f-pack contains 0,25 g sorbate/liter, i.e. the concentration you will have when you add the sorbate pack to the finished wine. If Chinook added 0,5 liter of the f-pack to 22,5 liter so he would end up with 23 liter, then the sorbate concentration would be roughly 0,005 g/l. And that is a low level. 

I have added 2/3 of the F-pack without any signs of effect on the fermentation. I know other have added the entire f-pack without a problem.

And being at 1,024 after 8 days isn't unusual.


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## bstnh1

Chinook said:


> How do you decide it is not ready? Two weeks is very very unusual for my experience, I cover my primary pails with towels to keep out sunlight and I suppose that also makes it warmer.
> I usually have a clarified kit wine ready for final processing by 4 weeks unless I'm busy and don't have time.
> ...
> I usually use the fining agents in the kit (K + C) at the end of the second week but then I will add an additonal fining agent of my own (sparkloid) at the end of week three. Sparkloid , I think does the best job , so I use it to do some extra cleaning.
> . Usually I stabilize by the end of week 2. I just stabilized a 6 week Vineco Chardonnay - that was at day 16.


I rack and transfer to secondary usually around day 7. I usually leave it in secondary for about 2 weeks. I rack again and let it sit a few more weeks to drop out more lees. I rack again and let it sit a minimum of one week just to make sure no more sediment drops out. There are times I let it sit a month or more. I don't filter my wine, so I make sure it has no sediment before I bottle. I've made about 50 kits, no filtering, and have never seen a speck of sediment in a bottle. Time and patience are two of the most ingredients in wine making.


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## Pittsburgh127

Everything posted on this thread seems to me to be nothing more than speculation. The only thing that will flesh this out is time. I have produced some very enjoyable wines from WE kits over several years, mostly the Eclipse kits. Probably 35 kits over the last 4 years. Most have been good, a few have been very good. 

Was the point of this thread to debate the merits of kit wines or to debate the new formulation and packaging of the WE kits?

Personally, I will reserve judgment on this until I complete some kits an see how they turn out. Am I skeptical? A little bit, sure. I started 2 Private Reserve Cab kits a couple months ago and they are moving along. I just picked up 5 more Private Reserve kits to continue my evaluation. Will I quit buying WE kits in the future? Only time will tell. For now, its a big unknown.


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## Jasienic

Lwrightjs said:


> Grapes-to-grapes?
> 
> Thanks for the follow up. I know everyone is io in arms about it, but kits do keep getting better every year, so it makes sense that they've learned at least a little bit since these kits were introduced several years ago.


I am sure that Andrew Peller Limited (owner of Winexpert and Vineco) learned more than a bit since these kits were introduced. The question is, did they learn to improve quality of the wine kits, or did they learn to improve corporate profits, without big regress in the quality? I do not trust corporations, which grow and grow, till there is no competition.
Until there is a definitive answer about quality of new, smaller kits, I am sticking with my reliable RJ Spagnols kits.


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## bstnh1

Jasienic said:


> I am sure that Andrew Peller Limited (owner of Winexpert and Vineco) learned more than a bit since these kits were introduced. The question is, did they learn to improve quality of the wine kits, or did they learn to improve corporate profits, without big regress in the quality? I do not trust corporations, which grow and grow, till there is no competition.
> Until there is a definitive answer about quality of new, smaller kits, I am sticking with my reliable RJ Spagnols kits.


Here's a link to a very good (and long!) article by Tim Vandergrift explaining the difference in size (volume) of wine kits. It doesn't directly address the shrunken kits, but it contains a wealth of information on the basic difference in kits of different volumes.

Understanding the Different Sizes of Wine Kits - WineMakerMag.com


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## joeswine

Thoughts  a kit is a kit no matter what the cost it's what you make it , you first a style then ,a plan and yes they will always be a difference ,I wouldn't let cost be the whole thought it's just the beginning. 
The games afoot..think outside the box


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## heatherd

For me, if the smaller Winexpert kits are cheaper and I can make more wine that's better it's worth a try. The pasteurization was likely the reason some of my kits always tasted a bit sweet even when fermented dry. I am going to give this a go.


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## joeswine

Rhe problem with making home wine and following kit direction is the knowledge that the instructions are just a guide l do all.
When these kits in 2005 we're coming out they were developed for the female taste which over all preferred back then a sweeter  not a semi dry as described in the instructions.
Moving forward as a winemaker you need to adjust the process to your tastes and not to the instruct d that comes with time and practice ..


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## heatherd

I ordered four kits from Label Peelers. The reason is that I typically get fresh juice buckets for my whites for around $55-60 in the spring and fall - the price for these new WE kits puts them below that price point and makes it so that I can make rose and whites with the On the House line for $40-45 bucks a batch and $75-80 for the Reserve line. I got 4 kits for $200, making this much more affordable and hopefully better quality wine. I'll be looking for whether they have the sweet kit taste that some of my prior kits have had. Ordered On The House Cal Red, Cal White and Rose and the Reserve Cal Sauvignon Blanc.


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## joeswine

Ok , then I would ask you to start these kits with a 5.5 gallon mark ,check the SG, then do your thing


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## Jasienic

bstnh1 said:


> Here's a link to a very good (and long!) article by Tim Vandergrift explaining the difference in size (volume) of wine kits. It doesn't directly address the shrunken kits, but it contains a wealth of information on the basic difference in kits of different volumes.
> 
> Understanding the Different Sizes of Wine Kits - WineMakerMag.com



Thank you for link to interesting article. Somewhere, between the lines we can find out obvious information that concentrates are made from inferior juices, as opposed to the fresh juices. I know that fresh juices are transported frozen, which increase the cost of the wine kits. I am afraid, that the main reason for recent Winexpert/Vineco changes is improvement of corporate profits. My local wine kits store owner thinks the same. He tried to get answer from Winexpert how much (approximately) grape juice is included in each of three main products of theirs. Their ignored his questions. With that approach, he stopped selling Winexpert/Vineco in his store. RJ Spagnols is his main product for sale.
Also, one more interesting information. There is not even one producer of the concentrates in North America. All of them are imported from abroad. I know, that Chile is a big producer of grape concentrates. So, there is a big question how wine kits with California wines are made. I think, they are just tweaked, to be as similar as possible to the name of the wine on the box.


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## Swedeman

Jasienic said:


> Also, one more interesting information. There is not even one producer of the concentrates in North America.


Really? I took me 30 seconds to find one; California Concentrate Company: Varietal Grape Concentrates 

Do you have a reliable source for your claim? As you are implying that they are guilty of food fraud?


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## Jasienic

Swedeman said:


> Really? I took me 30 seconds to find one; California Concentrate Company: Varietal Grape Concentrates
> 
> Do you have a reliable source for your claim? As you are implying that they are guilty of food fraud?


Thanks for replying.
My answer is no, and don't think so.
Looks like my source (owner of the store) is not as reliable as expected. My mistake. However, he was referring to the Canadian producers of wine kits, which he has contact with (Winexpert, Vineco, RJ Spagnols). He also was mentioning how difficult and frustrating for him is to get any detailed information from the producers about content of the wine kits.
Food fraud?  I think it is exaggeration, but have some doubts. In some discussions, I was told that producers protect themselves by adding the word 'style', e.g. Amarone Style, Piesporter Style. It makes sense for me.
Off the topic, I don't know how it is in Europe, but in US and Canada food fraud is not unheard off. E.g. after testing DNA of fish filets, in some samples, even 70% were mislabeled. Always low quality fish sold as a pricey one. Sad! This results are few years old. Hopefully situation has improved.


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## winemaker81

Supply store owners and employees, in my experience, are not good sources of information. The owner of the store I frequent knows his stuff, and if he doesn't know something, he admits it. Other stores I've shopped at? The info received was too often not reliable.

This forum is the best source of information I've seen. There is enough fact checking that we (eventually) get accurate answers.


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## cmason1957

I belive they add the word STYLE to those wines to keep from violating food labeling laws (or agreements), Amarone is very specific in what grapes can be used, where they can be produced, and how they are handled. Sort of like Port must come from Portugal, Champagne from a very specific area of France.


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