# Question about cuttings



## askins3097 (Jul 21, 2018)

Hello, 
Some background on my situation. I bought around 100 cuttings that were divided up between marechal Foch, sabrevois, and Frontenac. My plan is and has been to get them started, then transplant them into nursery pots until next spring so I’ll have some nice established vines to plant at a fraction of a cost of buying them already rooted. So far it’s been working great and I’ve been having near 100% success with the cuttings rooting and the ones I’ve transplanted have taken to nursery pots real well. 

My question is what should I do with them over the winter? My options are my unheated garage that never goes below 45, outside but it freezes often here in PA so I’m assuming I’d need to do something extra, my unfinished basement that stays low 60’s all winter, or my Rubbermaid shed that still gets below freezing but slightly better than outside due to greenhouse effect. Planting them now is not an option bc I’m going to get the machinery to prepare my new vineyard and clear the land over the winter. Ive made it this far, I don’t want to lose all my cuttings now. TIA. 
there’s some pics of my Foch transplants so far.


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## CK55 (Jul 21, 2018)

Nice cuttings, keep them out of the cold and i would cover them slightly as young vines are extremely prone to dehydration. I bought 2 year old developed grafted vines for $6.00 each from a reputable nursery. So its not that much more for vines that will probably produce in 1 year to 1.5 years as compared to the standard 3. And these are also completely phylloxera resistant. And just better overall. Just water them lighlty a couple times a week but dont over do it as vines are extremely sensitive to water and if you over water them you will cause the vines to asphyxiate and die.

Also I highly recommend that you keep a eye on them for pests as they are vulnerable to them, and if you see any bugs at all spray them. 

Lastly I recommend that you plant them in Dr Earth soil mix, which contains natural cultures and whatnot and really helps with growing vines, its similar to what novavine uses on their end. I use it even planting more developed vines and they just love it. Really helps them get the nutrients they need while they are developing, which is crucial.


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## askins3097 (Jul 21, 2018)

CK55 said:


> Nice cuttings, keep them out of the cold and i would cover them slightly as young vines are extremely prone to dehydration. I bought 2 year old developed grafted vines for $6.00 each from a reputable nursery. So its not that much more for vines that will probably produce in 1 year to 1.5 years as compared to the standard 3. And these are also completely phylloxera resistant. And just better overall. Just water them lighlty a couple times a week but dont over do it as vines are extremely sensitive to water and if you over water them you will cause the vines to asphyxiate and die.
> 
> Also I highly recommend that you keep a eye on them for pests as they are vulnerable to them, and if you see any bugs at all spray them.
> 
> Lastly I recommend that you plant them in Dr Earth soil mix, which contains natural cultures and whatnot and really helps with growing vines, its similar to what novavine uses on their end. I use it even planting more developed vines and they just love it. Really helps them get the nutrients they need while they are developing, which is crucial.



Thanks for the tips. 

I wish I could find vines around area that were anything other than concord or Niagara, let alone for $6. I’m stuck with mail order. The best thing about these cuttings is I have about $.40/piece invested, so beginner mistakes will not be too costly lol.


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## CK55 (Jul 21, 2018)

askins3097 said:


> Thanks for the tips.
> 
> I wish I could find vines around area that were anything other than concord or Niagara, let alone for $6. I’m stuck with mail order. The best thing about these cuttings is I have about $.40/piece invested, so beginner mistakes will not be too costly lol.


Novavine ships across the continentsl us. And it's flat $20 per order no matter how many vines you get. I would email them they have pretty much anything on whatever roots you want. You can ask them what's best for where you live.


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## Johny99 (Jul 21, 2018)

I’m guessing you are on your way to good roots. I’d go ahead and plant them in the fall, before freeze but when you get good moisture. They’ll continue to grow roots all winter. If your final vineyard isn’t ready, put them in a spot with lots of sand so you can dig them up in the early spring without much root damage. The biggest worry I’ve had with rooted cuttings is drying out. That kills them quick. So if you overwinter them in pots, keep them moist. I’ve buried pots, but have found that just burying the cuttings is more successful. And yes, my entire vineyard is on own rooted vines.


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## CK55 (Jul 22, 2018)

Johny99 said:


> I’m guessing you are on your way to good roots. I’d go ahead and plant them in the fall, before freeze but when you get good moisture. They’ll continue to grow roots all winter. If your final vineyard isn’t ready, put them in a spot with lots of sand so you can dig them up in the early spring without much root damage. The biggest worry I’ve had with rooted cuttings is drying out. That kills them quick. So if you overwinter them in pots, keep them moist. I’ve buried pots, but have found that just burying the cuttings is more successful. And yes, my entire vineyard is on own rooted vines.


Thats good, but dont you have to worry about phylloxera? I dont because im on sandy soil which makes a massive difference towards resistance.


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## Johny99 (Jul 22, 2018)

Not yet, and hopefully it won’t get here in my lifetime. I’m in Washington, not here yet. Poster has all natives and hybrids, I think but what do I know. So hopefully they don’t have a worry.


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## CK55 (Jul 22, 2018)

Johny99 said:


> Not yet, and hopefully it won’t get here in my lifetime. I’m in Washington, not here yet. Poster has all natives and hybrids, I think but what do I know. So hopefully they don’t have a worry.


Its infested napa and whatnot pretty badly in the past, its never been spotted here and a lot of vineyards are natural root here so I dont really have to worry and my vines except the potential Alicante and the Criolla are 1103 Paulsen and 101-14 Rootstock So they are safe due to rootstock resistance and the sand they are planted in.


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## askins3097 (Jul 22, 2018)

Johny99 said:


> Not yet, and hopefully it won’t get here in my lifetime. I’m in Washington, not here yet. Poster has all natives and hybrids, I think but what do I know. So hopefully they don’t have a worry.



You are correct. They are all hybrids, so rootstock and phylloxera should not an issue, at least according to Penn State Agricultural grape growing guide. 

Most of the popular Vinifera will not grow where I’m located and the ones that you might be able to get away with like Riesling or chardonnay would be so much maintenance that it wouldn’t be worth it. Our winters are just too unpredictable.  Some years its above freezing most of the winter and the cold tolerant vinifera would be ok. Other years we’ll get repeated 2-3 week stretches of highs in the teens and single digit lows that would wipe out your investment. 

Back to my post and question tho... So then if I keep them potted in my unheated garage all winter, I should continue to water occasionally to keep the soil moist? Planting them in the ground is not going to be possible unless a miracle happens and Sunoco gets off my property. They’re putting a pipeline in through here and it’s blocking access to my future vineyard location or else i would be working on getting it cleared now. I’m banking on them being out of here in the next few months then getting in there over the winter to clear it all out and get my location ready.


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## CK55 (Jul 22, 2018)

askins3097 said:


> You are correct. They are all hybrids, so rootstock and phylloxera should not an issue, at least according to Penn State Agricultural grape growing guide.
> 
> Most of the popular Vinifera will not grow where I’m located and the ones that you might be able to get away with like Riesling or chardonnay would be so much maintenance that it wouldn’t be worth it. Our winters are just too unpredictable. Some years its above freezing most of the winter and the cold tolerant vinifera would be ok. Other years we’ll get repeated 2-3 week stretches of highs in the teens and single digit lows that would wipe out your investment.
> 
> Back to my post and question tho... So then if I keep them potted in my unheated garage all winter, I should continue to water occasionally to keep the soil moist? Planting them in the ground is not going to be possible unless a miracle happens and Sunoco gets off my property. They’re putting a pipeline in through here and it’s blocking access to my future vineyard location or else i would be working on getting it cleared now. I’m banking on them being out of here in the next few months then getting in there over the winter to clear it all out and get my location ready.


Cool, yeah just keep it watered and whatnot, and I hope that company finishes up so you can get your ground cleared and ready. 

I found out the other day that where I live has the longest grape growing period in the world. So I guess that's why pretty much any grape will grow here. I'm lucky that my property is the only one that's Sandy everything around me is loam and clay. So being that I have the highest elevation. My vineyard is basically on top of a hill with lots of sun and moderate breeze which helps to keep stuff from sitting in the grapes leaves. So Ive got ideal land for most grapes, what I like about my sand is that it drains extremely well. And is ideal for Cabernet Franc, typically Merlot likes clay but It is doing extremely well on my property. 

Key really to good vineyard site is, 

1. It drains well
2. It has sun
3. Soil is fairly poor, because ironically the poorer your soil rhe better for grapes.

Realistically sand, tends with most grapes to allow for more aromatic but lighter wines. Except in the case of Cabernet franc which is darker and richer when grown in sand lol.


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## Masbustelo (Jul 22, 2018)

There are two types of Phlloxera. Or manifestations. Root and leaf. From what I have learned, the hybrids have built in resistance to the root form, which is what caused world wide havoc. The resistant root stocks have new world origins. Some of the hybrids are not resistant to leaf Phlloxera. I have seen it in La Crescent and Verona cultivars. The leaf form seems to be harmless.


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## CK55 (Jul 22, 2018)

Masbustelo said:


> There are two types of Phlloxera. Or manifestations. Root and leaf. From what I have learned, the hybrids have built in resistance to the root form, which is what caused world wide havoc. The resistant root stocks have new world origins. Some of the hybrids are not resistant to leaf Phlloxera. I have seen it in La Crescent and Verona cultivars. The leaf form seems to be harmless.


Correct . My vines are all on 1103 Paulsen and 101-14 millaret.
My criolla is on it's own which means it is 100% vitis vinifera with no phylloxera resistance the savior is being planted in sand. Which renders it immune to root phylloxera.


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## treesaver (Aug 2, 2018)

Funny you should mention that! Last year my frontenacs were full of philoxera. This year, not a trace of it! Have never seen it show up in the norton or verona.


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## CK55 (Aug 2, 2018)

Well if they were your vines would be dead. It doesn't show up and then go away and leave vines alive.


treesaver said:


> Funny you should mention that! Last year my frontenacs were full of philoxera. This year, not a trace of it! Have never seen it show up in the norton or verona.


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## Masbustelo (Aug 3, 2018)

CK55 There are two forms or manifestations of Phylloxera. Both manifestations are caused by Daktulosphaira Vitifoliae, a micro-scopic insect. For rather complex reasons, in temperate climates, grapes tend to be vulnerable to the root form of Phylloxera, which weakens the vine, causing it to weaken, atrophy and then die. Also, for rather complex reasons, grapes in colder climates, are not vulnerble to the root form of Phylloxera. The same insect in Northern climates causes leaf galls, (but no root damage), which are unsightly, but cause little harm. The galls do indeed show up in some years, and perhaps not in others. I suspect this in part can be related to the use of insecticide use at timely non-related applications, such as applying insecticides to control Japanese Beetles. My Verona had it last year, in their first year. At the appearance of the galls, I cut them off, bagged them, and then disposed of them. The eggs are laid on the leaves and cause the galls. My Verona, for whatever reason (maybe minus 20 degree temps, also) are not showing any evidence of Phylloxera this year, and are going "gang busters".


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## CK55 (Aug 3, 2018)

The root form of phylloxera is the only one where I live the aerial form is not present . My vines are in sand,on resistant roots, cultured with mychorrizae which also boosts resistance to phylloxera both aerial and root by secreting a form of antibiotics that kills them. So I've got everything stacked against it. I don't even have any pests. So I don't have to spray.


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## balatonwine (Aug 3, 2018)

CK55 said:


> I found out the other day that where I live has the longest grape growing period in the world. So I guess that's why pretty much any grape will grow here.



Ah, but being able to grow grapes is not the same as being able to grow grapes that create a great wine. That is a much, much more complex interaction of many factors than just growing season. Cross reference terrior.



CK55 said:


> Key really to good vineyard site is,
> 1. It drains well



True for most crops except, for example, rice....



CK55 said:


> 2. It has sun



All plants need sun... 



CK55 said:


> 3. Soil is fairly poor, because ironically the poorer your soil rhe better for grapes.



A bit of an over simplification and "fairly poor" is vage as the vines still need plenty of minerals and nutrients in the soil. And with enough irrigation and liquid fertilizer, one can grow many (most?) crops today even in "fairly poor" soil.

Rather, one should rather consider what is actually happening in the vine to understand what is needed to get better grapes that then create better wine. One gets better wine from vines that put more energy into ripening fruit than into vegetative growth. That is, the vines need to have some degree of environmental stress to limit, control and direct the kind of growth they. do. And, yes, one can get that result in less rich soils. But one can also do that by selective irrigation, as one example.




CK55 said:


> Realistically sand, tends with most grapes to allow for more aromatic but lighter wines


It is a little more complicated, because more than soils alone affect such things in a wine such as local climate factors (again, terrior). Sandy soils seem to help create more aromatic wines in cooler climates, and softer less acidic and tannic wines in warmer climates.


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## CK55 (Aug 3, 2018)

balatonwine said:


> Ah, but being able to grow grapes is not the same as being able to grow grapes that create a great wine. That is a much, much more complex interaction of many factors than just growing season. Cross reference terrior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of this is a more indepth way of saying what i wanted to say, just didnt want to make a wall of text in regards to it.


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## askins3097 (Aug 8, 2018)

All this was in response to a post asking what’s the best option to over winter my cuttings ? Lol.


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## CK55 (Aug 8, 2018)

askins3097 said:


> All this was in response to a post asking what’s the best option to over winter my cuttings ? Lol.


Its crazy on this forum a lot of really really really passionate wine guys get into it over stuff lol


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## balatonwine (Aug 9, 2018)

CK55 said:


> All of this is a more indepth way of saying what i wanted to say, just didnt want to make a wall of text in regards to it.



Real knowledge can not be transfered in 140 characters. Too much gets lost in interpretation. And just creates a mess. 

Or in other words, "_God is in the details_." ~ Ludwig Mies van der Rohe


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