# when good wines gone bad



## joeswine

hello fellow wine makers ,my name is joe's wine and I would like to discuss with you the subject (when good wines gone bad ),for the few who have seen it on other forums stand by and for those of you who have not ,its your turn to THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX,.

Have you ever made a wine and for some reason it just didn't turn out what you expected it to be, and didn't understand what went wrong,well i have and after 1o year of making and correcting I finally figured out how to correct most problems or take a so, so wine and enhance it,I would like to go through for you the methods I used to correct some long term problems and short... 

we have all made a good fpac,or have we,we know how to make and use ZEST,to enhance the finish of our wine?and do we have a good understanding of which yeast to use for what type of wine were making,do we also know how to use OAK and how to layer body into a wine,after all a wine is like a good sauce and we make a good sauce in layers ,we cellar dwellers have the time to make small corrections and change things quickly if we have a tool kit at hand to do the job required..also the body and the structure of wine and the type of wine your trying to make is some of the items I would like to put forth in WHEN GOOD WINES GONE BAD...


we will start with selecting a wine type and proceed from her,stay tooned


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## Tom

*ALL,
Listen to Joe. He also is a member of the SJWINEMAKERS with me. Remember his quote "Think Outside The Box" Some of what he does may seam unorthodox as well.
This is not directed at "kit wines" but rather take a different approach to winemaking. Adding things a different times, layering flavors, adding flavors you may not think of adding.
Also look here as I have a pdf of Wine Profiles http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3475 . Look at what the profile of your wine is. Think of what it says when it says "traces of Bleckberry" or "Hint of citrus"

This should be a neat thread

Go get them Joe!~*


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## joeswine

lets start out with some good wine tools that everyone should learn how to master and know when to use ,and how to effectively how to use them..

Fpacs,fresh or prepared,Zest,knowing how to us and enhance a wine that's just doesn't have any brightness,extracts very important in cellos and making liqueurs as well as holiday wines.
having a good wine repair kit is also helpful,pectic enzyme ,kmet, grape concentrate ,white wine conditioner,powdered oak or chestnut ,along with french oak or american oak( your preference),glycerin,ample amounts of simple syrup (2 to 1 formula) there can be more but these are the basics....having these at hand is a time saver..............

 lets take FPACS,,,most of us know how to prepare one take the fruit of choice and wash it well add it to a 14 inch. sauce pan and cook it down till its more like a preserve,also add a pinch of kmet at that time ,a little water to loose it up a tad..some simple syrup if needed and let it cool .ready for use,but what if up didn't cook the fruit,this style fpac is what I call a fresh press enfusion- EX>( fresh black berries) squeezed by hand (you want some of the fruit still in tact)place pulp and juice right in the wine and let monserrate,say I had a pinot noir, and wanted to add fruit,this would be one way of enhancing the original wine with the addition of fruit ,quite nice I can a test to ,blackberry pinot noir.....and not a kit either,Fpacs have their place in the tool kit great to perfect and use.THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX

how many out there ever made white wine whether be a kit or juice and it is just not that flavorful..or how many out there ever made a wine that the flavor just didn't hold up..I'll bet all of us...

Enter the Zest pac..that's right the zest pac..citrus zest is the extraction of essential oils out of the skins of the fruit EX.orange peal just the color portion not the pith,that portion of the orange which is rich in flavor and essence, knowing whenn and how to use them ..NEXT TIME


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## Runningwolf

joeswine said:


> Enter the Zest pac..that's right the zest pac..citrus zest is the extraction of essential oils out of the skins of the fruit EX.orange peal just the color portion not the pith,that portion of the orange which is rich in flavor and essence, knowing whenn and how to use them ..NEXT TIME



Joe, I wish I had read this three weeks ago. I added six oranges to my Chilean Muscato. Next time, it's zest!

Just think what that would do for Skeeter Pee!


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## Tom

Dan, all

Listen and learn from the Professor..


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## joeswine

*when god wines gone bad*

wolfman....never to late a good comp for whites is the zest of 2 oranges ,2 lemons,2 grapefruit,,,,perfect to bring out the brightness in a white wine...............if you wanted to add body its never to late buy 3to 4 lbs of thompson seedless grapes hand squeeze them and place them as they are in the wine ,let them infuse into the wine 2/3 weeks remove and add the finishing chems.and refinding agent.......better body... or better yet golden raisins for 2/3 weeks the finish wine as always..


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## Runningwolf

Joe, I had the six oranges in for about 3-4 weeks and getting ready to pull them out. You think I would still benefit with the zest from 2 oranges, lemons and grapefruits in a bag? This is with my Chilean muscet.


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## joeswine

The use of zest goes back a long way,as well as the use of fresh fruit in wine,the greeks ,romans and etruscans all used fruit in there wine and probably others also,certain nuts and vegetables are also used ,I my self haven's use them but I know of others who have,h.the use of zest is very compamentre to wine ,:to remove the zest use a micro plain .(hand help screader) found at any good household supply store,rotate you fruit around until only the color is removed do as much as you will use ,the skin on the fruit will harden again ,then apply the zest to the wine ,direct in after 2 weeks it will almost dissolve and the rest will settle to the bottom,,,done,,,


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## joeswine

*when good wine gone bad*

did you cut up the fruit? if so you stated you placed them in a bag can you see them? does it look like the fruit color is dissolved off if so your done.


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## Runningwolf

Thanks Joe, no straining bag then.


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## Runningwolf

joeswine said:


> did you cut up the fruit? if so you stated you placed them in a bag can you see them? does it look like the fruit color is dissolved off if so your done.



I did cut up the fruit and put it in the carboy with out a bag. I was going to rack off tomorrow. *I removed all of the skin* and pith before putting the piece in. So once again should I still do the zesting?


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## joeswine

let your taste buds decide,sometimes placing raw fruit in wine can make the wine bitter ,you need to taste and see whats transpired,if you think its ok, or still need at kick then by all means do the grapefruit zest only....just zest,if you think its to bitteradd a little simple syurp.alittle at a time once its in thers no out,or is there remember its onlt juice....think outside the box


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## joeswine

have you ever noticed that most kit mfg. always send you the same yeast? does that mean that that is the correct yeast for the type or style of wine ,do some research and have in your wine tool box a small variety of yeast types to fit the styles for you,yeast has distinctive profiles for different wine charastics,go on the lavin website and look at there metrics chart..see what wines in there option work best with different yeast strains and bring out the best for those particular styles and abv. .don't trust word of mouth, to much, because everyone's taste level is different,meaning, how well developed are there taste buds to little nounces and fine tuned notes In a wine ,get it ,do the research..


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## joeswine

ok we did fpacs and zesting,we talked a little about yeast,and looking for the correct one to best suit your particular wines needs,how about the body and structure of a wine I like to brake it down to texture and density,there are 3 different bodies of wine density thin,med,and full,but how do we create body in wine ? Usually it starts with the raw product and goes from there,but what if you produce a wine that is very thin (I have) what can you do to add body to a wine? 

Well there are somethings you can try and they just might work if your tool box has been prepared .first lets take a basic cabernet do we first know what the definition on a cab is? I think all to often we don't and rely on what someone else is calling a cab ,do the research,,go head just a little,og ok now we know what a real cab is supposed to finish like,,,but yours don't (kit or juices doesn't matter).what to do ,.
first decide whats wrong,not enough bite ,out of balance,to sweet to dry,not enough body,(remember texture and body )

Were to start,well lets say not enough body for starters,,back to the tool box,remove the wine from its container and place in a clean and sanitize carboy this is assuming the wine is finished and the product your left with is the subject,fill the carboy as far as it will go ,lets say your short of six gallons but not 5 gallons ,then remove enough to add 1.5 cups of oak your choice and 1 lb. of raisins put your air lock on mark you comment tag and wait ,after a few days or a week the raisins will start to infuse the wine and the oak will start to add the body and mouthfeel after 3/4 weeks ,draw a sample and check sg..at this point you will have picked up several points on the abv. and the raisins will have given you enough enfusion,to add texture,at this point add the basic chems,. and finding agent ,let it sit,after 3 weeks take another sample ,check sg, and taste ..their should be a excellent improvement in the overall taste and body of the wine......:gif for some reason your wine doesn't have enough fruit taste in it check in your tool box and see if you have grape concentrate..a small adjust to your taste could be needed if not .your wine should have been corrected to a point ,where you would lie to share it with your fiends


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## joeswine

LETS TALK EXTRACTS


this is a very fun topic,Tom and I have done a lot on this subject,,,EXTRACTS..what are they ,well there the extraction on the essence of a substances such as a n orange ,lemon grapefruit and the like..

preparation:take 1/2 dozen oranges and using a micro planner or a zester grader,remove only the colored surface of the fruit ,not the white out (the pith).now once this is done use either everclear or vodka,place the everclear in a ball canning jar,place the zest in the jar and fill the balance with either liquid you chose,let it sit for a m9nth and at the end of that time period ,it should have all settled out to the bottom of the jar and a bright vibrant color and essence is left behind THIS IS EXTRACT) 

ex.for a holiday wine,,6 cinnamon sticks in everclear,orange extract already made up,everclear,ans simple syrup.

base wine PLUM..3 /4 bottles of base wine to a large pot ,mix in orange zest and cinnamon 0 to taste go slow a little at a time taste for balance and what you want the master flavor to finish with add simple syrup to taste (always to taste)..let it sit in the frig. for 24hrs. bring out and taste again before the finial verdict...easy and simple holiday wine ..extracts are a key player in your tool box.


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## joeswine

ZESTING and the use of

lets be clear on the how to of zest,

what is it, the essence of a produc or essecial oils,ex. Orange/lemon/grapefruit just to name a few,the extraction process isn't hard just takes time d

how to:EX. orange zest,take 8 oranges (eating oranges are best for this work,use a micro plainer,or zest grader,and only remove the colored portion of the fruit (no pith) white portion is bitter not to be used,get it,,

AGENT FOR REMOVAL OF ZEST

There are to know agents to best do this process with,first EVERKLEER and second VODKA....

IN a ball canning jar place the zest of the fruit,add to the balance of the jar either one of the two agents,I like everkleer,goes farther and stronger a better bite than the vodka,how ever if you like it milder the use the 
vodka................after a month look at the jar all should have settled to the bottom and should look a lot pailer than when you first put it in,open the jar carefully and smell the extract (first the alcohol hits you then the fruit..
now you have extract..I done this with many a fruit and its a great tool in you tool fix-it box.............


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## Sirs

thats cool on doing the extracts they can be used for lots more than wine also. I'm glad your adding this here really nice to have the knowledge written down.


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## SpoiledRotten

I'm suscribed to this thread. Thanks Joe!


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## Runningwolf

SpoiledRotten said:


> I'm suscribed to this thread. Thanks Joe!



Sorry but your dues aren't paid!


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## SpoiledRotten




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## joeswine

NOTICE TO THE PLUM 


SIRS,noticed you have a plum wine in your fine collection,have you made a holiday wine with it yet using extracts?

extracts.. can be very inventive and creative items in your tool box.................. you just have to think outside the box....it doesn't matter to me if its a high end kit or starter kit or fresh juice,,they can be all finished to your liking at least I believe they can you need the tools and the desire and some knowledge to try....


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## joeswine

SPOILED ROTTEN>...

what I'm trying to do here is put down all the times, I tried and failed, but most of all my desire to fined out how to correct the problem in the future or at least correct it,in this craft we chose as a hobby.after a while its not how much wine you have in carboys or barrels to me its how much is really good enough to send out across country enter in contest and send to people, like you and ask for a honest evaluation,

Hopefully you'll follow me on some adventures I've had and take with you the theory of (think outside the box)


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## joeswine

*tangerine & orange voignier*

ZESTING AT ITS BEST

Went to the general store2 weeks ago,was reviewing what they had I ask the owner about a wine in kit but couldn't remember there correct tittle,he let me use his computer and I search ,what a great variety on fruited wines out there,well I found a kit with orange & tangerine voignier,I thought,what a great combo,so on the way home I stop at the shop rite and picked up the two fruits I needed to changevoignier from a good wine (of which I have a lot of) to a very tasty wine by adding the zest of 8 tangerines and 4oranges to the mix..very bright already in taste ,.only cost $45/for the juice and 6 for the fruit,and added a whole different taste to my collection..


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## Sirs

Actually I hadn't even thought of that... plum is a holiday fruit of sorts. I guess the thiing now is to think of what I can do to go outside the box with it so to speak got some research to do now.




joeswine said:


> NOTICE TO THE PLUM
> 
> 
> SIRS,noticed you have a plum wine in your fine collection,have you made a holiday wine with it yet using extracts?
> 
> extracts.. can be very inventive and creative items in your tool box.................. you just have to think outside the box....it doesn't matter to me if its a high end kit or starter kit or fresh juice,,they can be all finished to your liking at least I believe they can you need the tools and the desire and some knowledge to try....


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## joeswine

*Zesting*

hope to be placing pics online soon


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## joeswine

*Zesting*

Lost a post some were,with the PLUM,extracts of cinnamon,and orange,truly holiday spirits


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## Tom

joeswine said:


> ZESTING AT ITS BEST
> 
> Went to the general store2 weeks ago,was reviewing what they had I ask the owner about a wine in kit but couldn't remember there correct tittle,he let me use his computer and I search ,what a great variety on fruited wines out there,well I found a kit with orange & tangerine voignier,I thought,what a great combo,so on the way home I stop at the shop rite and picked up the two fruits I needed to changevoignier from a good wine (of which I have a lot of) to a very tasty wine by adding the zest of 8 tangerines and 4oranges to the mix..very bright already in taste ,.only cost $45/for the juice and 6 for the fruit,and added a whole different taste to my collection..



When do you add? Primary, secondary or after stabilizing.


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## joeswine

*Zesting*

WHEN TO ADD 

ZEST is a a very good media to work with,never in the primary ,but you can layer the flavoring after that anytime,secondary to start the essence ,addition later on in the third racking to add more ,if your taste buds deam so,or the addition of other flavors after primary,there are no rules with this ,just results,and ideas..


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## Lurker

Joe, what a great thread. You reminded me of most of what I forgot from our meeting. I had planned on using zest and then put it aside. Now I have 2 carboys of Chilean Chianti from May of 2010. One is oaked the other was started with raisins. I'll put the oaked one into gal jugs and add a diff. zest to each gal. It sounds like a great experiment. See you at the next meeting. 

Richard L.


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## joeswine

CHANITI AND ITALIAN FAVORITE 

Good to hear from you and yes just like one of our meetings only on a larger scale,how is the one with the raisins doing so far?how long have you had them in there? how dry are you going to make them? 
The raisin one by itself should be quite good as a stand alone,remember to layer a little oak into the process,and a little more kmet at the end to assure fermentation will not start again, with the addition of the raisins you need to be sure.

What type of zest are you thinking of adding if you zest? to the second half or am I going ahead of you? OR WOULD A GOOD BLACKBERRY FPAC BE BETTER?


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## JohnT

My through is that life is too short to drink bad wine. Rather then expend time and energy on fixing a bad wine, I thinking is that one should spend time on determining exactly WHY the wine went bad (and how to ensure that is never happens again). 

If the wine is truly bad, in most cases, no matter what you do will result in doctored up bad wine. Again, I say in most (but not all) cases. 

Your bad wine is taking up equipment that could be used to make that really great bottle of wine. 

In short, I say that you should learn the lesson that the bad wine is trying to teach you, then dump it in favor of making a wine that is more drinkable.

(this is only my humble opinion).


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## robie

I understand what you are saying, John. Live and learn. The lesson learned really sticks with you if you see the mistake swirling down the drain.

You would be surprised at how many near disasters occur in wine country, disasters we never hear about, but we end up drinking and enjoying the final results. Of course it is a different situation when the disaster is 5,000 gallons from a prize winning vineyard. They have a motto that one never gives up on a troubled batch of wine. You would be amazed at what can be done to fix it. The end result possibly should have been a wonderful $40 bottle but ends up a $10 porch pounder, but salvaged just the same.

There are a lot of things that can be done to salvage a fermentation gone wrong. (I know from personal experience.) For me, and speaking just for me, I consider it a challenge to see what I can do to fix it. Maybe I am just stubborn!


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## JohnT

Robie, 

I understand what you are saying. 

Your attempts to save the wine are stemming from a professional situation. You have a vast investment in 500gal of wine, and a winery only makes wine but once a year. This, I believe is the center of what you are saying... you need to protect your investment. 

I am (more or less) a wine school/club. We make large amounts that I too would do just about anything to save. I am also not saying that dumping the wine (in all cases) is the best thing. But in a lot of cases (such as oxidation) the effort is not worth the reward.

For the home winemaker, however, is it worth killing youself over 5 gal of wine only to end up with a porch pounder? My thinking is that I would prefer to dump the proch pounder when I know I could be spending my time making something that is simply fantastic.


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## robie

I hear you again, nothing whatsoever wrong with your approach.
But like I said, I may be a little stubborn (proud?). 

Besides, my wife would kill me if she knew I had to pour $100 to $200 worth of must down the drain.


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## tonyt

+ one, what Robie said.
I acquired a 18 month old Brunello kit recently. When I poured it into the primary I almost cried. It was brown and had a very off smell. Folks on the forum encouraged me to proceed and try to work with it. I did. Got it off the lees a bit early. Have dome an extra racking. Degassed till the cows came home and have added a French spiral to sweeten it up. It's very clear but still just a bit off color. The taste is considerably better than I expect at this point given the beginning. In fact my wife didn't believe it was the "bad Brunello" but thought it was another one that I have aging. I had planned to bottle it rather than bulk age it. At Joeswine's suggestion I am going to give it a few months in barrel and let it concentrate and mellow. With the brownish tint I know it won't win any awards and I won't be giving any as gifts but we will have 30 fine tasting Brunello for pizza nights.

"Never give in. Never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense."
W.C.


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## Rocky

I have to agree with Tony and Robie. I am a disciple of _Joeswine_ and I am having a ball working with wines that do not quite satisfy. I can give two quick examples of what I have done, a couple I am doing and one that I plan to do. First was a Sangiovese, a 10 liter kit from Wine Expert. I was disappointed in the taste and the "mouth" of the wine and thought, "Oh Well, it is just two cases. We will just have to suffer through it." Then I became acquainted with Joe on a forum and he showed my how to "think outside the box" and there are no hard and fast rules. In order to enhance the taste and improve the mouth of the wine, I ended up liquifying some Blackberry jam and adding it to the wine. It is one of the best wines I have ever made or tasted, for that matter. A second was a Riesling that tasted kind of flat to me. I recall the "green apple" taste that I used to experience when I was stationed in Germany. I got some Granny Smith apples, juiced them in a juicer and added it to the wine (after sorbating). The wine is very nice. 

I am currently making a Sauvignon Blanc and a Chardonnay-Semillon to both of which I added a pound of white raisins and I plan to enhance further with citrus extract. George has a Meglioli Malvasia Bianca on Special this month. I plan to buy one, make about 4 gallons of the wine and two gallons of _Vin Santo_.

Joe, you have created a monster!


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## JohnT

The most important thing is that you fellas are happy. 

For myself, I do not like the taste of fruit blended wines. I much rather spend my time creating a classic gem then tie up equipment and money on something that I know I will not like.


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## joeswine

HELLO JOHNT

THE idea here is not to waste anytime on a wine that can't be reworked,never said that ,but to take a product that's not what you thought it would be or how you expected it to turn out and adjust it,I know 3 wine masters here in southern new jersey who are sitting wine wine and are trying to figure out how to correct the rocket fuel on made the flat taste another made and the last one what happened to it? and you can bet their not going to toss ther product out were taling couple of hundred gallon batches good friends of mine all of them excellent wine makers with degrees from cal.davis and the other head of dept. of agriculture /wine side for new jersey... 


I agree with you why waste your time on bad wine,that's not what this thread is about,thinking outside the box is a catch Fraze I believe in and employ only because I don't know anyone who hasn't made a wine whether it be fruit,fresh juice or kit that hasn't ask him or herself at one time or another WHAT HAPPENED AND WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?

I'm sure their are a lot of purist out there that don't agree with my tactics as was stated early on but you have to try and overcome the problems, us cellar dwellers have and that's what this is all about ,using the technics here are basic to wine making and have been employed and used by wine makers through the decays in one fashion or the other,if you think about what has been put forth here its not that hard to correct a wine problem,and it might just work.


Glad to see that this thread has sparked a conversation in a constructive manor,that is what this form is all about and would like to here more pros and cons ,but know matter how you cut it if you think out side the box when you have a problem,and ask what if ,you'll get a reply.


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## robie

Let's just all remember that there is no right or wrong, here. Just a bunch of guys and gals with differing opinions.

It's wine making fun!!!!!! It's an expression of our individuality. I wouldn't have it any other way


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## JohnT

I agree that there is no right or wrong here. 

Also, I am also NOT saying that my opinion is the only, correct way to think about this. 

That being said, let me add some more clarification on what I am saying...... 

From may point of view, for the professional (I have many pro friends and relatives in Europe) that the dammage to your reputation as a winery will always far exceed the money you would save by doctoring up bad wine. 

It is along with quality, it is reputation that drives the price of wine. If one suffers on either of those two points, then a winery can not survive. 

This is also true in the beer trade. I remember seeing (recently) a reality show that covered the Dogfish Head brewery. In one episode, they dumped an entire production run down the drain rather than send out inferior beer. 

For the home winemaker, there is no harm in either way you decide to go on this. I always believed that I would never drink nor serve a bad wine that has been doctored up. Given this, anything I do would be a waste of time and equipment. 

Again, this is just my personal philosophy, and not intended to belittle or look down on others having a differenct opinion. 


drink and be happy.


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## tonyt

John, Rocky, Joe, Robie, great discourse. Excellent example of how a forum discussion should be. Wade, you should be proud, if you're not out fishing.


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## JohnT

And to think that i did not mention Welches once!


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## joeswine

TO BE CONTINUED


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## Sirs

joeswine said:


> Lost a post some were,with the PLUM,extracts of cinnamon,and orange,truly holiday spirits



Was talking with the wife on the plum and she said that might be a good idea, I got to thinking that it may very well be one to try.


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## Lurker

joeswine said:


> CHANITI AND ITALIAN FAVORITE
> 
> Good to hear from you and yes just like one of our meetings only on a larger scale,how is the one with the raisins doing so far?how long have you had them in there? how dry are you going to make them?
> The raisin one by itself should be quite good as a stand alone,remember to layer a little oak into the process,and a little more kmet at the end to assure fermentation will not start again, with the addition of the raisins you need to be sure.
> 
> What type of zest are you thinking of adding if you zest? to the second half or am I going ahead of you? OR WOULD A GOOD BLACKBERRY FPAC BE BETTER?



Joe, Sunday I will probably rack one 5 gal carboy into gallons. I'll use the zest from each of an orange, lemon, & grapefruit. I'm not sure about how much to use for each gallon but if I use too much, I'll have enough to blend it. I'm glad you reminded me at exactly the right time. See ya on the 3rd Sunday.

Richard L.


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## joeswine

ZESTING

usually for 5/6 gallons 2 0f each is enough when you get to the third stage of operations or before finding,taste it ,if ok then move forward if not grapefruit only ,can't go wrong,check sg. and move forward .....see you soon


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## joeswine

*zesting*

BLACKBERRY 


YOUR NOT GOING TO TRY A BATCH BLACKBERRIES?


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## Tom

Joe,
What would you blend Blackberry with?
I just started a Blackberry wine from steamed juice. Thinking on blending with a friut wine.
Suggestions...


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## joeswine

*blackberry blend*

I think

blackberries and most other berries will do nicely with RED WINES,i f you look at the fruit flavor kits out there you'll see what I mean.and rightly so ,if I were to take this on a flavor ride I would do pomegranate the natural side bar of flavor to the taste profile,thats my opinion,that's why I thought richard would have chosen the blackberry with the chaniti.its a natural. but that's just my take on it...what do you think.


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## rodo

Blackberry and Blueberry is a great combination.


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## joeswine

*berry combinations*

DO THEY GO? 


Just a matter of preference,but if you look at the taste of a blackberry its dry and sometimes bitter,a blueberry how ever is very lite on taste and and is really over powered ,, separate they will ,when matched correctly be great,but together I don't think so ,that just my opinion.
Took a sample of the amarone today here's the verdict, Aroma lite,body med/heavy,legs good,taste,achola up front smooth,fruit in the middle and wood to the back,overall-a good amarone for any dinner for under $4.00..... ,tepe when I see you in two weeks I'll bring a bottle and let you describe it to the forum..


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## Tom

OK, U need some Blackberry?I have extra frozen


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## joeswine

*blackberries*

NO THANK YOU...WHATS YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE THREAD SO FAR>>>PHOTOS TO COME <I HOPE THIS WEEK


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## Tom

Good. This is the purpose of the forum.

Sharing experience and help others make better wine.


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## joeswine

*Amarone*

THE AMARONE EXPERIMENT



I have completed my WE amarone international experiment,for those of you who who are not aware I took a kit and as stated in this thread enhanced it and created a better kit than the mfg. had intended. 

On another site is the AMARONE SAGA,IT TELL S YOU STEP BY STEP HOW TO INCREASE BODY, FLAVOR AND IN A WINE KNOWN TO REQUIRE LONG AGING,SHORT TERM CREATED GREAT TASTE,BY LAYERING THE OAK AND PROPER USE OF RAISINS,GOOD TIMING AND CHEM. PRACTICES....ANYONE CAN MAKE A GOOD WINE KIT BETTER.


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## joeswine

*Extracts*

EXPRESSO CELLO

HERES A RECIPE ON HOW TO MAKE A EXPRESS CELLO MY STYLE.

RECIPE- 12 CUP OF GOOD QUAILITY EXPRESSO COFFEE AT THE READY,,EVERKLEER AND GOOD QUAILITY COFFEE BEANS,,SIMPLE SYURP,,,I PREPARE THESE ITEMS IN BALL QUART JARS THEIR EASY TO WORK WITH, REUSABLE AND CLEAR....


TO START;PLACE THE COFFEE BEANS IN THE BALL JAR ALMOST FILLED,ADD THE EVERKLEER TO THE TOP PLACE THE LID ON TIGHT AND LET STAND FOR A 2MONTHS ,AFTER THAT TIME FRAME REMOVE THE BEANS AND REFILL THE JAR WITH NEW BEANS AND THE EXSISTING ENFUSED EVERKLEER,AFTER 1 MONTH THE EXTRACTION IS DONE AND MATURED FOR USE"

TO THE POT WE GO


AFTRE THE ENFUSION IS OVER PREPARE YOUR BOTTLES AND BEGIN THE MIX..12 CUPS OF EXPRESSO (FRESH MADE AND COOLED),ENFUSED COFFE BEAN EXTRACT AND SIMPLE SYURP ALL TO TASTE ..THE ONLY CONSTANT IS THE 12 CUPS OF EXPRESSO COFFEE, THE REST IS UP TO YOUR TASTE BUDS,AFTER YOU MADE YOUR BLEND STIR WELL ,REFERGERATE OVER NIGHT TASTE THE FOLLOWING DAY IS IT GREAT,IF SO BOTTLE IF YOU NEED TO ADJUST NOWS THE TIME AND BOTTLE...... THIS IS ONE USE OF EXTRACT IN CELLOS ,WE ADD TO THE TOOL BOX AS WE MOVE ALONG ON THIS TOPIC AND ZESTEXTRACTIONS THE DO'S AND DON'T 


1.EXPRESSO

2.EXTRACTION

SIMPLE SYURP

THIS IS THE ORDER


----------



## millwright01

My thoughts on the thread are:

I am really enjoying it. There is a lot of info.

Thanks


----------



## joeswine

*pics*

NO PICS


Did a whole video tonight and couldn't download it to my computer,need to try another way....will get their


----------



## Midwest Vintner

Well, I know we tweak wine alot and we are definitely not conventional, but now we are limited. The federal gov't actually imposes MANY restrictions on wineries and more specifically, fruit wines. That directly contradicts a few of the wines we were wanting to produce. Namely, our pecan maple bourbon, which is two fold in this case. One, maple syrup or molasses is strictly prohibited, Two, bourbon is also strictly prohibited in a winery. Brandy, however, can be used, which probably wouldn't taste right. Also, you have to have a different license for +14% abv and they are considered liqours. You can not blend two different non-grape fruit wines. You can however put different fruits in the primary as longs as you get approval and place the percentage of what's in it on the label, which we are doing for some wines. 

Going from home wine maker to commercial was a change, but we are adapting. It does suck being told you can't do this or that anymore. I wish they'd pull some of these dumb regulations on acids, etc. I don't know why it makes a difference? I can understand getting approvals for some things as it's a "fail-safe" to consumers in a way, but atleast allow things that are not harmful. Unless I am missing something?

We did make a few "extracts" as you are calling them. We made a orange liquor and a chocolate one (from WHOLE NIBS). Blended the chocolate with a few wines. WOW, was it good. That was a long time ago though. Easy to do and good!


----------



## joeswine

*extracts/cellos and things*

STOP THE WINE PRESSES


we have a person in our wine group who started to open a winery here in NEW JERSEY applied for all the permits got them and then the legislators stop all wineries for opening a lot of money they had invested just sitting,,,, HOW ever on a good note cellos and home made liquors bring back better times and the creativeness in this craft...don't you think


----------



## joeswine

*Never again*

NEVER AGAIN


my friend KITO was beside himself,backesweeten a Shiraz which he loved before hand just to satisfy his wife love of sweet wine,NEVER AGAIN he stated no matter what  I will not do that again,once the sugar is in deep theres no getting it out,so I said to him make two kits one for you and one for her you know that old adage( never say never),lessons learned


----------



## joeswine

RACKING AWAY




MS.T WAS OVER LAST NIGHT RACKED HER CHARDONNAY ,AND HER PEACH ICE WINE,SO FAR THE CHARDONNAY IS OK (FROM JUICE) AND THE ICE WINE (FROM KIT)NOT SWEET ENOUGH,SHE IS TRYING TO DUPLICATE A COPPOLA CHARD,BLENDED FROM TO DIFFERENT BATCHES OF CHARD ..NOT GOING TO BE EASY ,AND SHES HARD TO PLEASE AT THE SAME TIME......THE PEACH I CAN BACK SWEETEN BUT NOT TO MUCH ORR I'LL LOSE THE TASTE ,THE CARD ,WILL HAVE TO TAKE ITS TIME AFTER RACKING THEN I WILL ADD SOME LIQUID OAK LET IT SET ..SEE WHAT TRANSPIRES.....ALL GOOD THINGS COME IN TIME.


----------



## joeswine

*Plum wine*

i'M GOING TO TAKE THIS STEP BY STEP MY WAY ON MAKING A REGULAR PLUM WINE AND A SPICED PLUM WINE.

wash and quarter plums discarding the stone,place in frig. for the night ....was to tired to carry on ...to be continued


----------



## Sirs

joeswine said:


> i'M GOING TO TAKE THIS STEP BY STEP MY WAY ON MAKING A REGULAR PLUM WINE AND A SPICED PLUM WINE.
> 
> wash and quarter plums discarding the stone,place in frig. for the night ....was to tired to carry on ...to be continued



you should try doing one with wild yeast like I do now that would be out there for you I'd think. I've played some with my plum but only blending with other wines so far I'll find my niche so to speak.


----------



## joeswine

*plum wine revisited*

And a way we go

I started today making my plum wine ,remember,35lbs,of costa rican plums,destoned and quartered,then I placed them in a quesanuart (processor) and pureed them down, after they were nice and smooth I placed them in 3 different pots to cook to distribute the cooking time added sugar about a cup and a half to bring out the plum flavor then reduced it , after it cooled a little I added pectin enzyme 1teaspoon per gal. ,now I should have came out with a 6 gallon batch but what I wanted was a denser plum taste I can always dilute after (not a chance)...tomorrow we will add the yeast till ,the final color was unbelievable in intensity,vivid reddish color,full of taste .......yeast tomorrow..


----------



## joeswine

*plum wine continued*

A YEASTING WE WILL GO

Today I added the yeast- RED STAR Montrachet,its characteristics are good for fruit wines and this fruit wine will be rich in body and taste.........when you plan to make a wine or create a fruit wine its a good investment in time to think what the main characteristics of your wine is as compared to the type of yeast your using to start the fermentation process,its not the best or the most beneficial yeast you get with the kits ,especially if your making fresh juice take the time to investigate which yeast will produce the best results for the wine your making ,I know I'm repeating myself but its worth the time and effort and I know you do...right...to be continued
PS.sirs....I don't want fate to take a part in this dance...but I DO understand fully...


----------



## joeswine

*My caps over runith*

HOUSTON WE HAVE FERMENTATION


All three wines are in lift off mode the plum is excepticial the aroma hit me in the face when i walked down the stairs this morning,just awesome,the other two are hot straight and normal,,,Houston we have lift off


----------



## joeswine

*Settling in*

THE RACK ATTACK


WELL ALL THREE ARE IN SECONDARY GLASS TO ALLOW THEM TO SETTLE OUT ,ALL THE CHEMS AND FINDING AGENTS HAVE BEEN ADDED, THE LOUNGE AND CAB/ORANGE WILL BE READY FOR FPACS,WITH IN A WEEK OR SO THE PLUM HAS TO SET AND FILTER DOWN ,GOT MY LABELS IN FROM GINO PINTOS,HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT THEM BUT THEY ARE GREAT(BEEN USING THEM FOR THE LAST 8 MONTHS) IT MAKES A FINISHED WINE ,JUST COMPLETE AS LONG AS THE WINE IS WORTH THE EXPENSE,YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN,GREAT LABELS AROUND 22.50 FOR 30 PRIME LABELS AND THEY HAVE A VINYL FINISH AND PEAL OFF ,MAKES ALL MY EFFORTS WORTH WHILE,i THOUGHT TO MYSELF "WELL JOE IF THE VOLUMING IS LESS THEN THE FINISH PRODUCT WILL BE BETTER"AT LEAST THAT WAS THE PLAN,WILL SEE.


----------



## joeswine

*Fruit wine uprising*

MAKE A CHANGE
WINNER AND STILL CHAMPION

WHITE ZIN /POMAGRANET WINNER AND WAS CREATED BY THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX ...i STATED WAY BACK THAT IF YOU CAN THINK IT OUT YOU JUST MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IT,,,,CONTESCE OF THE WINE WHITE ZIN FROM CAL. 1.5 YEARS FINISHED BODY OK ,TASTE NOT BAD,COLOR EXCELLENT ABV. 11.5 ALL IN ALL A SO ,SO WINE,.

ALONG COMES THE KIT OF THE SAME NAME 

MADE IT AND MY WIFE AND HER FRIENDS SWALLOWED IT DOWN..THEN COMES POMAGRANET FRUIT VERY HARD TO WORK WITH ,THAT WASN'T THE ROUTE,NEXT TRIED TO USE SOME JUICE DRINKS AND i REALLY DON'T EVENKNOE WHY I TRIED..WRONGE WAY ALTOGETHER..THE CAME POM JUICE JUST THE RIGHT EVERY THING BUT WHAT FLAVOR TO DOMINATE ??

THAT WAS A EASY CHOICE ,THE HARD PART THERE WAS HOW TO BLEND THE FRUIT AND FINISHED WINE SO THAT NONE OF THE FACTORS LOST ANY GROUND..AND STAND ON THERE OWN .

AND THERE LIES THE TAIL OF TWO WINES


----------



## joeswine

*Blending*


blending my way


----------



## Sirs

now your talking I love to blend wines


----------



## joeswine

*Wine blending*

WINE BLENDING MY STYLE



 ten years ago when i started this craft i was all eager to make my first wine of italian decent why shouldn't' i make a good wine after all i helped my grandfather enough times...oh well

 fast forward 10 years later and i think i got some of it right,but why do we blend and what do we hope to achieve in the end from it,did i know in the beginning what the charistics of the wine i had started out to make was,and the difference at the end?


 rule number one,in the beginning know the charistics of the wine your making and the yeast that best applies,know the make up of your wine is critical in blending ,it stands to reason if you wine is say a merlo then you would want to add to its structure with maybe a cabin

or if you have a viognier then maybe a reisling would be a nice complement to each other,there are so many great combos where to start or which ones do you start with,thats what this thread is all about.

my greates pleasure is blending fruit wines to grapes wines and thats were i would like to start.....


RULES OF THE ROAD

WHY DO WE BLEND
WHAT ARE THE RULES
WHO ARE THE PLAYERS
WHAT AM 'I TRYING TO ACHIEVE


NOW WE CAN START


----------



## joeswine

*A blending we will go*

REMEMBER THE RULES THIS APPLIES TO THIS FIRST ONE VERY WELL....i had made a great tasting raspberry wine and started to wine some local competitions with it ,i also had in my possession a find and upstanding Shiraz waiting to met his final reward,,I started to think how would the two of them pair up the name sounds right RASSBERY SHIRAZ..CAN'T BE BAD ,(KNOWING YOUR PLAYER),WHICH ONE WOULD BE THE DOMINENT FACTOR AND THE OTHER THE COMPLEXITY BRINGER,the rass would lead and the shiraz would follow but in a balanced manner creating a new overall taste profile.....


 REMEMBERING THE RULES ,why do we blend to create a new flavor profile or to correct a correctable problem. 

my wife and i started ,together we laid out wine glasses and begun to pour,after two hours of hovering around this glasses and getting half bombed,we finally can up with the proportions ..35% raspberry and 65% Shiraz,this allow the raspberry to be the first to greet your nose and tongue and the follow up of the fruity and smooth shiraz ,we had a winner and to this day i still have some left .....not much

but what if you had a wine say a red zin and it had good color and some flavor,,,,,good abv. but not much else...this the becomes a fixable problem very solvable by blending


----------



## joeswine

*A nice touch*

MY FIRST STAB A WHITE ZIN WASN'T BAD NOT GREAT EITHER,BUT NOW I WAS IN THE BLENDING MODE FOR BETTER OR WORSE,HAD A GOOD YEAR MAKING DIFFERENT FRUIT WINES AND WAS MOVING FORWARD ,BUT WHAT TO DO WITH THE ZIN i WAS GOING TO MAKE A STRAWBERRY WHITE ZIN BUT THAT DIDN'T SOUND TO GOOD AND THEN IT HIT ME,i LIKE MUSCATO AND HAD 6 GALLONS ON THE SHELF AND IT WAS TASTY AND HAD NOSE ,IMAGINE THAT IT ACCUALLY SMELLED



BECAUSE IT HAD ALL I NEED BY IT SELF MY WIFE ASKED ME TO BOTTLE SOME OF IT FOR HER AND i DID,one bottle, NEED TO HAVE ALL I COULD TO FINISH THIS PROJECT THEN THE BALANCES COULD BE BOTTLED OUT (if any),75% MUSCATO AND 25% ZIN,BEAUTIFUL COLOR AND GREAT AROMA,WITH DECENT BODY....A REAL WINNER WE DID NOT GIVE ANYWAY.i FOUND OUT MUCH LATER THAT THEY ARE GOOD PARTENERS....

SOME TIMES YOU CAN HIT IT LUCKY BUT IT AWAYS PAYS TO
KONW YOUR PARTENERS


----------



## Sirs

Well guess I can jump in on this one I've seemed to have found a blend that everyone seems to think is really good including me it's about 75% wild plum and 25% a blend of mixed wine grapes (3 different wine grapes picked and fermented together) it has a look of a really good bourbon and have been told it is really smooth on flavor and mouth feel. I like to make it at times where there's more grape and if you don't know what it is you get stumped or at least those that I've had taste it have.


----------



## joeswine

*Wild plums*

The plum should carry the partnership do to the complexity they can bring and the tart sweetness associated with them,that was a good choice of partners,SIRS,it can make all the difference between a good mix and another bad decision.....


----------



## joeswine

*Geetting to know you*

 

GETTING TO KNOW YOU GETTING TO KNOW ALL ABOUT YOU..REMEMBER THAT SONG....WELL HERE SOME PARTENERS TO REMEMBER. 




MAJOR.......MINOR

CAB.SAUVIGNON.......MERLO OR ZIN JUST A TOUCH

ZINFENDEL..........BARBARA,PETI SHIRAH..JUST A TOUCH

SANIOVESE...CAB..MERLO..BARBERA..JUST A TOUCH

CHARDONAY....SEMILLOM.....RESILING.JUST A TOUCH

RIESLING............MUSCATO...JUST A TOUCH/



i'M SURE THERES MOR BUT HAY ,SEE YOU ON MONDAY..


----------



## joeswine

*the fine poiints*

blending in harmony

things to watch for when blending grape wines at the finish ,filter before blending,watch the acidity level,blend wine s from the same year blending wines with the same characteristics,using fruits like peaches with riesling and viognier,take the time to have a plan and idea on what you want to achieve...

when blending fruit wines no what each partner brings into the game as far as strengths and weakness are- and use them.

to me blending berries is the cats meow,raspberries ,black berries ,straw berries ,elderberries and blueberries to mention a few are spot on when it comes to blending either with grape wines or with another fruit wine.Take a look at the mix fruit wine industry its a kaleidoscope of flavors 10 years ago would of never been have thought of,but these beauties opened up a whole different world for the adventurous winemaker,and a whole new market. 

in my cellar I have ,raspberry sharaz,blackberry pinot noir,white strawberry merlo,zin/pomegranate,seville orange cab,rassberry cab,blueberry ,raspberry ,blackberry wines by them selves,peach and i know there's a few others I can't think of that are down there,the blending possibilities are endless,all's it takes the development of good wine making skills and the 3/ps of wine making.......next we will go back over fpacs....and fruit wine making...


----------



## Sirs

you can't forget the older ones also like pear,apple


----------



## joeswine

*the minds a terrible thing to waste*

I agree and plum of witch i have two types of,pear cellos,cranberry melbec,and I probably still have miss some that I currently have but what can i say?


----------



## Sirs

it gets worse as you get older lol


----------



## joeswine

*Forward to backward*

 


REMEMBER HOW THIS THREAD STARTED ,WHAT IF THIS OR WHAT IF THAT HAPPENED AND THE USE OF FPACS AND ZEST ALONG WITH SIMPLE SYRUP AND EXTRACTS,ALL THE COMPONENT'S ALONG WITH CONCENTRATES AND DIFFERENT FLAVOR ENHANCERS,REMEMBER THAT ?


WELL ITS THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE WINE ITSELF THAT IS THE ISSUE WITH MOST OF WHAT I READ AND WRITE, SO MAYBE ITS TIME TO TAKE A STRAIGHT LOOK AT WHAT MAKES UP THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE ITSELF,ALSO IF YOU CAN RECALL I MENTIONED THE PARTNER SYSTEM OF WINES AND HOW THE CHARACTERISTICS ENHANCE OF EACH HELP CREATE A DIFFERENT WINE PROFILE FLAVOR ALL TO TOGETHER OR TO CORRECT A WINE THAT HAS A CORRECTABLE PROBLEM,.


THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE ..NEXT


----------



## joeswine

*reply*

Sirs did you get my reply?


----------



## Sirs

no didn't get it


----------



## joeswine

*agreement*


I'm not as good as I should be with the computer soon sometimes i not sure of what I'm doing,.

 I agree with you for the most part do what is the best for you but always remember their might be a better way or at least try it,by allowing natural yeast to take over you might not get the full benefit of the wines structure,on the other hand by using the best yeast for the wine type that your making and scientifically bring out the charistics of the wines correct profile these are some of the mental steps we as home wine makers need to take to understand and learn how to create the body and structure of wine,believe it or not I don't like to read but when it comes to wine making that is my exception and has been my benefactor as I have grown,,I appreciate your comments pleas do not stop ,yours.JP


----------



## joeswine

*The body and structure of wine*

THIS IS A BROAD SUBJECT AND TO GIVE YOU A MORE INSITE WE THE SOUTH JERSEY WINE MAKERS JUST HAD OUR OCT.MEETING AT THE SOUTHWINDS WINERY IN MILLVILL NJ,SO NOW WAS THE CORRECT TIME FOR ME TO START THIS THREAD WITHOUT FUTHER ADO.


THE BODY AND THE STRUCTURE OF WINE FROM A CELLAR DWELLARS STAND POINT,WHERE DOES IT BEGIN,WELL AT THE POINT OF SOURCE THE VINYARD ,THE TYPE OF SOIL IS IT LUMIS ,ROCKY ,SANDY ETC,THE SITE ON WHICH IT IS GROWN ON THE HILLSIDE, IN A VALLEY,OR TERRACED ,HOW MUCH SUNSHINE IN HRS.PER DAY ,HOW MUCH RAINFALL PRE DAY OR MONTH AND DRAINAGE WINE GRAPES DON'T LIKE THERE FEET WET ,SO i'M TOLD, AT WHAT TIMES OF THE YEARS IS THE SUN- THE HOTEST AND OF COURSE WHAT TYPE OF GRAPE WINES ARE YOU TRYING TO GROW ,ALL THE ABOVE CLIMATIC CHANGES AND ELEMENTS TAKE A BIG PART IN THIS PLAY ,WITH THE CHANCE THAT WHEN ITS ALLS SAID AND DONE THERE ARE ENOUGHT GRAPES WITH THE THE PROPER CHARISTICS TO MAKE THE WINE YOU THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAVE.any

IM SURE THAT THOSE OF YOU WITH ACTUAL WINERIES CAN LIST MUCH MORE BUT I THINK THAT GIVE THE NOVICE THE IDEA.SO LETS MOVE ON ...................

LETS BREAK DOWN THE STRUCTURE OF A WINE ,FIRST THERE'S/ alcohol theirs the largest portion of the wine with water if need for with out the kick why would you want the wine, excepted values any where from 11to 13% by volume,how do we get the ABV. the sugars in the grape fermented down produce this lovely taste,but it requires balance and to that end we ad tannins, whether its chips,dust or logs,it secretes acids that along with the juice start to form body,layering the different types of tannins will deliver good balance other sources of tannins are extracted from the stems and the skins of the grape,this creates the drying,slightly astringent sensation in your mouth.tannins can be harsh and green or velvety in texture all depends on the winemaster and what he or she is trying to achieve.ACIDITY is part of the structure of wine,giving it lift and intensity.without acidity wines taste flat or flabby while with too much acidity they can be seem shrill ,and tart and excessively lean.


This is all geared to the structure and the balance of the wine

so lets see we have grown he grape,harvested it at the peak of bricks level around 23% pressed the grape,added tannins,acid blend maybe,maybe pectin enzyme,did I forget the yeast what type that's important for that will also define the direction the wine will travel ,
(its a red) so we let the skins set for a week getting all the tanins and color we can out of the MIX ,all the while punching the cap down,after a period of time its ready for a racking ,now the wine can start to transform in to a drinkable brew .........................but its still not there yet..


----------



## joeswine

*What are tannins ?*

TANNIN ACID,YELLOWISH TO LIGHT BROWN AMORPHOUS,POWDERED,FLAKED ,CHIPPED OR LOGGED,DERIVER FROM THE BARK PLANTS ,THERE ARE HYDROLYZABLE AND CONDENSED TANNINS.?
DON,T GO TO SLEEP YET WHAT ARE TANNINS ,THEY COME FROM A GROUP OF PLANTS WHICH CREATE POYPHENOLS,THESE ARE FOR THE MOST PA RT WATER SOLUBLE,

TANNIC ACID IS A PARTICULAR TYPE OF HYDROLYZABLE ,THIS ONE CAN BRAKE DOWN WITH WATER,CONDENSED TANNINS ARE FOUND IN TEAS AND GRAPE SEED AND SKINS,THESE TANNINS ARE TWO OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS IN OUR PLAY.......TO BE CONTINUED


----------



## joeswine

*tanins*

 
TANNINS IN THE RED


RED WINES ARE USUALLY MADE WITH RED OR PURPLES GRPES FERMENTED WITH THE SKINS,SEEDS,AND OFTEN PIECES OF STEMS WHICH IN TURN GIVES THE RED WINE ITS CONDENSED TANNINS,THINK OF HOW WITH YOUR TOP OF THE LINE KITS NOW YOUR GETTING THE RASIN PACS AND GRAPES PACS THIS IS TO ADD THE BODY , HOWEVER THEY ALSO SHOULD IMPART TANNINS BACK AS WELL IF THERE A TRUE FPAC, AND GREATER DEPTH OF COLOR ,IF THERE'S ANYLEFT FOR THEM TO ENFUSE AFTER REHYDRATION,THATS WHY YOU USUALLY ARE GETTING MORE TYPES OF OAK ,POWDERED, AND CHIP,ONCE AGAIN TO GIVE BALANCE AND ADD THE ACIDITY NEEDED TO CREATE MORE STRUCTURE IN THE WINE,


WHITE WINES ON THE OTHER HAND USUALLY JUST ARE MADE FROM JUICE AND MAY BE INFUSED WITH OAK IN A BARREL FOR A SHORT TIME ,AS MANY WINE MAKERS DO WITH CHARDENAY FOR EXAMPLE ,USUALLY AFTER FERMNTATION IS STAINLESS THEN TRANSFERED TO OAK FOR A TIME ,(UP TO THE WIMES MASTER) .

WHY ARE TANNINS IMPORTANT..TO BE CONTINUES


----------



## joeswine

*So why are tenants important*

Tannins are very important to the body and the structure of the wine they can enhance the flavor of the foods that we are eating with them and act as a preservative as well as a flavor enhancer tannins are the walsl of our structure.

So now the alcohol which is a foundation the tannins which are the walls of our structure, now we add the final component. ACIDS for without the acids and 

the work they do the 



body and the structure wine would not happen.


----------



## joeswine

*Layering the tannins*

 REMEMBER how in this thread I spoke of layering tannins,well if you look at what the high end kits are doing just that,only there asking you to add all at once,don't ,allow the hard woods to go in the primary and the powder to go into the secondary,layering I believe gives us the aging factor (to and extent) and a rounding out of the structure of the wine.


----------



## joeswine

*Next*

ACIDS AND THEIR EFFECT ON THE BODY AND THE STRUCTURE OF WINE


----------



## joeswine

*Building together*

THE BODY AND STRUCTURE OF WINE


 REMEMBER IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD i STATED HOW ZESTING BROUGHT A BRIGHTNESS TO THE FINISH OF THE WINE ESPECIALLY THE WHITES,WELL WE ARE GOING TO START TO CLOSE IN ON THE STRUCTURE BY ADDING ACIDS ,THE BINDING AGENT THAT HELPS CREATE THE MOUTH FEEL AND THE BITE ,REMEMBER I MIGHT BE A LITTLE UNORTHODOX IN MY WAYS BUT FOR A CELLAR DWELLER THIS WORKS,


----------



## joeswine

*the finish of the wine*

 what is the term" finish "in the wine world ,well its the final taste you experience,sweet,tart,sour and flabby OR smooth,these are all terms to describe the finish of wine,but how do they get there?

acids in the wine HAVE a lot of different effects depending on the volume and the types of acids involved,acids also help to control the bacterias the wine ,develops the color and helps preserve the wine also.normal ph in a wine can be from 2.9 to 3.9 depending on the wine type.

 their are different types of acids that are involved in the wines development,malic,citrus,(remember that one) acetic,butyricc,lactic and succinic all ply a roll.there are some others such as ascorbic,sorbic and sulfurous acids.
AS stated this was going to be a long one,but for the vast majority of kit makers and fresh juice makers,who get there product in a ready state this is not a issue but could and might effect how you want your wine to finish out,if your not careful of the sanitation and the handling of the wine making process.


REMEMBER THE ZEST


----------



## joeswine

*Building blocks*

 TARTARIC ACID,THE PRIMARY AND MOST IMPORTANT OF THE ACIDS,THEY HELP CONTROL THE STABILITY OF THE WINE AND ITS COLOR AND FINALLY IN ,INFLUENCING THE TASTE OF THE FINISH PRODUCT.
 WE HAVE ALL SEEN OR MAYBE NOT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WINE IS SUBJECTED TO COLDER TEMPERATURE,THE CRYSTALLIZATION OF THESE TARTRATES CAN HAPPED ANY TIME AND IS SEEN AS BROKEN GLASS IN THE BOTTOM OF THE BOTTLE.SOME TIMES THIS IS DELIBERATELY DONE AND IS CALL COLD FERMENTATION,TO HELP PRECIPITATE OUT THE TARTRATES .


----------



## joeswine

*Can you see the structure*

 

 We started with the alcohol then we added the tannins now we're adding the acids major building blocks of wine and how to of it, we yet discuss the remaining acids that can and sometimes do make up the body of wine and some of the ones that we really don't want.

 I had someone the only e-mail me and ask me about when to add the fpac and or the zest, and how do I do it so maybe it's time to take a step backward to go forward again and bring this back to light this week then finish the acids, I think that's the smart thing to do, so will start by creating a fpac.

I'm sure there's a lot of people on this website who make fpac's their way and is probably quite similar to the way I do. I like to work berries a lot so will do a berry fpac.

Adding fpac is very similar to making a sauce in this case were using berries instead of tomatoes, wash berries,to process the fruit you can do this 2 Ways You put it in a blender rough chop it and then place it in a 14 inch skillet or take the raw berries wash them put them in a 14 inch deep skillet with a little bit of sugar and little bit a water and start to break them down with heat once they've cooked down to an 80% , that's the time I usually put a little kmet in the I don't want them to start reactivating the fermentation if I can help it and that's why do this(this is my style(okay now we cook down berries to a preserve level let them cool, just a little allow for the volume of the berries to enter the juice so you may have to take some juice out, have to think before you act now that you have the berries and the wine altogether stir them ,this gives you more of a mess to clean up because once you have to dump these carboys you have more settlement the bottom, I usually take it outside dump it in the flowerbeds and wash out with the hose that's how I do, now comes the part that takes patience you need to start taking SG readings for at least the next five days make sure no fermentation is restored at that point just walk away don't stir don't do anything to the wine just walk away ,allow at least one month to two months ago by then rack the wine.

 At this point you should be able taste, I do tasting all along except of courseprimary and, secondaries not to Cool either but I do, do tasting as I'm going along. See if you've picked up the flavors your looking for, now is the time you can make any adjustments ,may needed to back sweeten a little usually most berries will give up their flavor easily remember the Barry you never have it totally dry that's why you have to watch fermentation, so if it's your liking, backsweeten let it set for 2 to 3 days check your SG, all's well then add your finding agent and wait for to clear.


----------



## joeswine

*Returning to the acid*

Acetic acid, is a two-part organic acids produced in wine during or after the fermentation..period. It is the most volatile of the primary acids associated with wine and is responsible for the sour taste of wine vinegar. During fermentation, activity by yeast cells naturally produced a small amount of acetic acid. If the wine is exposed to oxygen, acetobacter bacteria will convert ethanol into acetic acid. This process is known as a aceticifacation, and is the primary process behind wine degradation into vinegar. An excessive amount of anesthetic acid is also consider the wine fault. A tasters sensitivity to Astec acid will very, but most people can detect excessive amounts normally.

Well I said there was a lot to the subject and there is but how many of you out there have ever tasted sour wine. I have a little experiment for you do, take a small amount of red wine , Leave it on a countertop exposed to the air for a-week, taste it, are you starting to taste the sour I started taste of vinegar put a lid on it for the next week, tasted again, then tell me when taste. This is old-time way of making wine vinegar of old wine that we used to use in South Philadelphia where I came from, we never through the wine away we drank it or use of this vinegar... Will return to finish up acids in the wine ... Try the test


----------



## joeswine

*Happy turkey turkey day*

Happy turkey day everybody talk to you on Monday BSafe have a great day


----------



## tonyt

You too joe. And thanks for all your helpful posts.


----------



## Sirs

yeah have you a really good weekend


----------



## joeswine

*Happy Wednesday everybody*

Well it's time we got this thread going again been very busy for a while but I have some news to report. I have my wife Lucille winetasting for me when I gave her to taste was my plum and peach one,my saove, Chardonnay, two different peach wine.

She has great taste but you can pick out the smallest nuances, so she is my sounding board and then I take the corrective measures.

Plum/peach combo -good all-around taste plum upfront /peach to the backend. But it needed some more alcohol.

The soave way to tart, which means to me too much acid in the Chardonnay was hard to define, but that's okay because both of these wines are really young and have a long way to go, but I threw them into the mix anyway.

Now the two different type of peach wine ,the first was done useING FRUIT from an Orchard not far from us their process is to squeeze fresh peaches from the trees, filter,and convert into juice. The second type I had in a carboy for over a year now and it was made from the same vineyard but with fresh peaches ,I blended the fresh peaches with the fresh juice and created 6gallon totally,but not quiet enough abv. for her taste,, So now what needs to happen, I need to add alcohol to my fruit wine, how do we do that, we can do it two different ways, I can make the alcohol or I could add 2 ounces of sugar and yeast to my blends a little at a time, to the alcohol level that I desire. Just another way of tweaking the wine.,or ferment my simple syurp and yeast and create alcohol and add it to taste....then let her try again?


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## Angelina

I have been watching this thread Joe and I just wanted to say thank you. Can't wait to read more, and learn more! Have a great night!


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## joeswine

*Zesting*

good to see the yesses out vote the nays on the zesting..


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## joeswine

*Fix it kit*

SEE ALMOND WINE FOR CONTENT?


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## joeswine

*Starting over*

Let's talk about something we all get involved stuck fermentation, question what is the fermentation, stock alcohol fermentation-a condition in which East has not started becoming active or has prematurely ceased converting sugar into the grape juice and alcohol-this is a very common occurrence , it is the result of several different thing, the grapes are too moldy, if you're using grapes, sugar content is too high alcohol content is too high, fermentation temperature is too low or too high, free sulfur dioxide content is too high or lacks nutrients.

A good alcohol fermentation requires a favorable environment for yeast to become active environment to become active and multiple, otherwise, fermentation may fail to start or may stop before completion, resulting in a sweet, low alcohol wine. Stuck fermentation is easily detected by measuring the sugar content guy drum. The specific gravity for SG of a dry wine should be 0.995 or lower. If it is above 1.000 and remains unchanged for more than a day, then you fermentation is most likely stuck.

Remember before we talked about partners in knowing your partners this is a case in point choosing or selecting the correct yeast for the wine type that you're making is very important also using nutrients to support the yeast activity is important in developing the body and the structure of the one as well as alcohol level for the net result is the alcohol at least for me to I enjoy drinking. Depending on the one type that you're making for example. Using a juice that usually develops into a high alcohol wine then maybe Lalvins EC – 118 or red stars premiere curvee is the right type to use remember we also talked about the yeast that you're getting and some of the kits generically may be okay but not exactly the best one well let's what I'm talking about.


Down in my basement, in the summertime and hovers around 68 to 72° in the winter time it go down as low as 62° yet I still have one week going on, anything in that low temperature range can and usually does that's why you have to be aware of the type of yeast using the temperature using it in, the type of wine using it with, all of these elements come together and can cause stuck fermentation, hazing or cloudy wine as well as other types of problems that come along with winemaking.

We'll go into these is short form later but for right now talking Monday................ to be continued.


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## joeswine

*The question?*

How many new winemakers out there and old winemakers have? Or do not have? A hydrometer and if you do have one are you sure how to use this is a vital tool in your toolbox, if you're not sure just ask learning together is with this forum is all about , mysel, knowing how to use a hydrometer still can have a problem, then the question would be, if you have one why a problem? The answer is rushing not letting the wine take its natural course or having the elements interfere, not paying attention to what's going on letting chancetake its course......................................... Even this old winemakers have these problems for various reasons as we continue down the road of winemaking you will see that it does matter if you're a novice or an antique you can still have a problem even with the most expensive set up a working under your sink it can happen any numbe of always THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX....................................................... WILL continue....................


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## joeswine

*yeast*

You know the roller ration out there and if you want to talk about yeast if you go onto lalvins website you'll see a chart that chart has five different type of yeast on it there are, RC 212, ICV D – 47, 71B – 1122, ICV k1v-1116 and EC 1118.

If you take time to read two pages at or actually less better there you read down the columns you'll see which yeast in their opinion is best for the type of wine that you're making like I said before don't be so sure that the yeast that you're getting with your kids is the best yeast to be using, generically then it is the best possible want to use or at least as trouble-free as possible, for their net results. If you're looking at the chart you'll see for stuck fermentation going all the way across 1116 or 1118 are the best use they're also for high alcohol usage. Check out what they recommend for aging reds-RC 212 for young ones RC 212 for age once. The view across the young reds 1122 not so much for age records this information is out there for you, and how to use it experiment with it* think outside the box*


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## Lurker

"now comes the part that takes patience you need to start taking SG readings for at least the next five days make sure no fermentation is restored at that point just walk away don't stir don't do anything to the wine just walk away ,allow at least one month to two months ago by then rack the wine."

Joe, Sunday was a good day. But on subject; why are you concerned about fermentation restarting if the wine is still in the carboy, under a lock? If fermentation restarts, it won't last long and it may increase the alc. What harm will it do?

Richard L.


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## joeswine

*fermentation revisited*

n
n Its not weather or not it may start,its just being aware of the goings on with the wine ,bottling a supposed still wine and in fact its sg readings may look normal.lets say for a fruit wine which by the way is never totally dry,it could give you a view of false security,and then start re-fermentation in the bottle. 
There are a lot of times when wine making isn't what it seam to be and just walking away isn't the answer either,being aware is the key ,and even experienced wine makers can be fooled,there's a lot of different factores involved as you well know that affect the wine over the course of time.

 hope you and your wife had a good time ...see you in january.....jp


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## Sammyk

Interesting to read.........


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## joeswine

*Sammyk*

what did you find interresting? have you read most of when good wines gone bad?or just the above thread? at a ny rate good to hear from you .


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## Sammyk

As a newbie, a lot of this is confusing still. I like the idea of zesting though.

Our Myers lemon tree in our greenhouse gave us over a 100 gorgeous lemons last year.


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## Sacalait

This is the time of the year here in the south when the citrus is ripe and this lasts for about 2 months. Just was wondering if the zest of this fruit can be frozen for later use. I'm not ready to start a batch of wine at this time but it sure would be nice to have the zest on hand when needed.


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## Tom

FYI
I have zest frozen all the time. I however mostly use it for cooking. I would think you could use frozen just add a little more.


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## Rocky

Freezing the zest should work and another way is to make an extract by adding the zest to alcohol (I use Vodka) and letting the zest flavor the Vodka. I add this in measured amounts to my wine for a citrus background.


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## joeswine

*freezing zest?*

 I don't think freezing zest is a good idea,lets see what were takling about,oranges,lemons and grapefruit the most common or limes,its available all year round and isn't expensive to use fresh ,which is the way it is intended to be used in this application,FRESH IS BETTER,what you want to tap is the freshness of the fruit ,this is not a FPAC,either making a extract out of it or appyling the zest directly in to the wine,FRESH is the only way to go..

LIKE a good chef using fresh ingrendients is best


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## joeswine

*zesting*

GOOD TO SEE THE COMMENTS


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## Sacalait

Just made a batch of COINTREAU using the zest of oranges, limes and grapefruit ...awsome!


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## joeswine

*zesting*

 good to hear god results,have you read this thread ,it contains fpacs,zesting,and cellos.....thanks for the reply..good to hear fromyou .


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## Sacalait

Oh yeah, I've been keeping up with it ...interesting!


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## joeswine

*Zesting*

 GOOD TO SEE 21 TO 5 WOULD TRY ZESTING,THATS CREATIVE THINKING


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## harleydmn

I put zest in my Savu blanc, will be trying it in about a week when I rack it. Will update than


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## joeswine

*zesting*

which zest did you use?and how much?grape fruit would have been my choice do to the background of the wine it's grassy,which did you choice?good to see you explore and depending on the amount you used will determine the deration of time for the oils and acids to incorperate into the wine.

know your parteners is a key to all of what we do..pleas let me know how you make out.......also try a cinnamon extract,great with the orange extract and a zinfindel for a holiday wine...keep in touch.


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## harleydmn

I used a grapefruit and 2 oranges, we can't wait to try it. I will let you know how it turns out. I got the idea from you and I think it will turn out great.


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## joeswine

*Cloudiness in wine*

 Cloudiness in the wine may result from improper racking, when sentiment is disturbed and allowed to go into suspension, or from improper clarification, such as incomplete finding or filtering with two course a pad, or a high fruit pectin content. Cloudiness may reappear in it perfectly clear and brilliantly-colored wines during aging. This will happen ones that have not been properly stabilized. Will going to stabilization at another time, to reduce cloudiness, but the sentiment settle to the bottom of the container and then carefully wrapped the wine. This could take some time the patient, the wine can be clarified by finding, using your favorite fining agent, followed by another racking. Always allow a minimum of two or three weeks before racking. Occasionally, the wine can be filtered, particularly if cloudiness persists.

 Will also be in the fining agents down the road, pectin may be another source of problems making wine from grapes or fruit. A clear wine with high pectin content because the wine to turn cloudy in the bottle. Even though you may think that it's clear just give it time and it will reappear. Pectin enzymes can be used to reduce excessive pectin and potential cloudiness problems. There's a lot of think about making wine, so take your time we'll go over fining agents , tartaric crystals, sulfur smell, rotten- egg smell, acetic spoilage and acidity high pH.* Stay tuned*stay tuned


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## joeswine

*what is ?*

cointreau?


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## Sacalait

Yep, a liquere about the same as triple sec. Good for straight drinking or to make a marguerita.


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## Lurker

I put a tspn of orange zest in one gallon of cabernet sauvignon. After 4 weeks I bottled it. The orange is very obvious to me, not my wife. I think a little less would be better. Or, maybe less time in the bottle. Got to keep experimenting.
I'm gonna try some fast blended blackberry in a diff. gal. of cab this week.

Richard L.


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## joeswine

*lurker*

Its not so much the time in mastseration ,its more the amount,the longer in the better the taste,doing small batches should be fun beings you can change of zest depending on the different wines..EX.white with lemon and lime,a red with cinnamon and orange A red with orange and tangerine should be excellent .....think out side the box


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## joeswine

*xmas*

n

from lucille and me a very merry christmas to all and ,above all health and happyness...


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## joeswine

*Happy new year*

Well, this is the beginning of 2012 hopefully it will be a healthy and happy new year for all of you.

Let's start when good wines have gone bad for 2012, we covered a lot of territory in 2011 and the still a good amount to cover in 2012 if it anytime there is something that you like to talk about or have a comment on please feel free to chime in , this forum is all about.

The lessons we've covered oblivious cloudy wine, how about that dreadful sulfur smell, the dreaded, common sulfur smell, in problem wines is a result of over-processing sulfites. Is easily detected by its distinctive pungent odor-match smell, and, a high concentration, it can become overpowering. Some people can detected at a level as low as 50mg/l

If the sulfur smell is detected in the fermenter,aerate the wine by successive vigorous racking up to you can no longer detected. If detected in the bottle, aerate the wine I decanting it into another container, and repeat antique no longer detect the smell. In both cases, but the wine/at the bottom of the container. As a rule of thumb, to prevent sulfur smell, try to maintain a normal free S02 level of 50mg/l throughout the wine, except when doing it NLF.

Another odor that I have smell before is that nasty old rotten egg smell a rat in a smell in wines is caused by the presence of hydrogen sulfide may be cured depending on its intensity. If not treated early h2s as easy as it is known only act in the wine to form first intomercaptains, followed by disulfides-both are foul smelling compounds that cause wine to spoil the presence of either compound is generally irreversible in winemaking extensive chemical knowledge and experience and access to analytical laboratory equipment are required. The causes of this canary such as verification from grapes that have been overtreated with sulfur-based chemicals grapes of the prone to the problem prolonged aging of wine in the presence of sulfur deposits in all cases, aerate the wine abundantly by racking it against the wall of the theater to reduce the amount of H2S. Alternatively, or in addition, sulfite the wine at a rate of 50mg/l and then filter to strip it of elemental sulfur. Repeat the process in the three months depending on the problem severity.

Now me myself I have run into this problem before usually not with fresh juice, the one I've used grapes it wasn't too sure what I was doing with accountants that's why trial and error can cost you, but that's what makes it fun the learning process, and brother I have learned. Rotten egg smell is not one of my fortes that I haven't had a problem when I try to play with the acids I've always got myself into trouble, so don't feel alone this is what it's all about.


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## joeswine

*harleydmn*

Well, how did your Sauvignon Blanc turn out, have you tasted again and what was your findings? Looking forward to hearing from.

This is the beginning of a new year for us at the South Jersey winemakers club, the first meeting this year is at my place, we are going to go over zesting, simple syrup, extracts and fpacs both cooked and fresh style I'm going to be using by blackberries, will be using oranges, grapefruit, limes, and coffee beans for making our extracts, along with Everclear and vodka, aside cast of characters are cinnamon and vanilla bean.

As I stated before this year will be moving backward and forward, we not only make wine we make cellos, most of you know if these are and how they are produced but will go back and review these, it's very important that you have a wide palette to work with in the wine business, for those of you purist, don't get nervous when go back to the straight stuff but in the meantime let's have fun, that's what it's all about. Talk to a Monday and let you know how the entire meeting went.... Stay tuned


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## joeswine

*Remembering your partners*

Remember in the beginning we talked about which wines go well with the other, in which wines age best with the other, so how does fining and filtering effect of wine.

Aging can be accelerated by removing the solids young wines. The more solids removed, the shorter the successful age. Of your wine some of the suspended solids and heavier constituents will be removed during the fining and filtering process. Follow the recipe directions, and I would recommend that you use a manually powered filter unit when you filter since you can control the pressure and the speed at which the wine is pressed through the filter pads. Motorized machines tend to filter quickly and can strip away more than needs to be removed, taking the stuffing out of the wine. Other winemakers may disagree. You may find a comfortable middle ground by using a motorized filtration unit that offers multiple speeds, allowing you to filter your wines slowly or quickly. The advantage of motorized unit is that the flow of the wine is steady. Member that any wine kit that requires finding or filtering which is just about every wine kit on the market has been formulated to endure and the wine will eventually blossom, showing its every charm. All you need is a little patience, patience, patience, patience.

Temperature can also play a factor in the aging process of wine: the wine the slower the process, the warmer the wine the faster the process. Kit manufacturers try to take all that worry out of the formula, do is direct I myself, siphon and/or machine process depending on my time frames the amount of solid that deal with in the type of wine I'm trying to process.

Machine filtering, with the wrong type of pad can also play havoc on the finish wine, course, medium and polished filters are the type I use with my mini jet pump. I like the mini jet it does what it's supposed to as long as I follow the rules although there's been times I think it has a mind of its own............................... talk you soon


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## joeswine

*The partners*

Good winemaking starts with a good base, with either a good quality kit or a top end juice or grapes that are picked at their peek, then need to be blended, if they're going to be blended with a partner that is equal in balance, taste and caricatures. In return the two will partner with each other and form a quality blend, this will follow through to the aging process and the filtering process at the end of the wines journey it should all come together.

That's why you should invest in winemaking knowledge, knowing the partnerswhat to blend together how to age them and filter them so that they can be all they can be. However should you run into a problem it's nice to know that you have the time and the materials in your toolbox to know how to manage them, that's why this thread( when good wines gone bad) is here to help you.


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## joeswine

*Sparkling wine*

Dom Perignon

Here's something interesting, a lot of marketing has surrounded the name of this Benedictine monk who, in truth, has about as much to do with the modern champagne as Paul Bunyan does with the average lumberyard . The most famous yarn surrounding him has noble, frail, elderly monk opening a bottle of his famous namesake wine, sipping and proclaiming, I'm tasting the stars!

In truth, pierre perignon was a treasure for the Abbey of hautvillers near Epernay in France. Not only do this position have been collecting taxes for the church and minding the accounts, but also had him managing the Abbey's sellers-wine being an important retail item for the monastery. Part of the taxes were paid in grapes and wine, and where Perignon had an exceptional talent was in the blending wine to improve quality. His still wine sold for twice the price of others in the area.
 
He also had an excellent grasp of quality control and quality assurance, introducing programs of yield restrictions, scientific pruning and harvest controls. It is true hobbyhorse was improving the red and white wines of the Abbey, although he succeeded more often than not, he was occasionally frustrated by the appearance of a fizzy secondary fermentation in the bottle," spoiling "his perfectly good wine.

Evidence seems to indicate that a marketing minded money minded-Domgrossard-spread the legend of dom after his death. Later carry-ons name was registered as a brand in France, and subsequently was acquired by moot et chandon for your name-famous champagne.

Interesting footnote, I'm going to do a little series on champagne to be continued.................................... see you soon


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## joeswine

*Women doing men's work*

Yeah I know in this day and age that statement can be frowned upon but modern champagne owes a lot to one woman: B]Madame clicquot, nope, dom perignon, was an astute wine blender but the stories about him drinking stars ) adjustment advertising copy. Nicoleponsardin married a vineyard owner named CLICGUOT IN CHAMPAIN IN 1798. When he died seven years later, this shrewd, tough-minded woman took over managing the company. Under her hand, the process of removing sediment from the bottles was developed. The riddling table, necessary to speed the process, was also developed. She also worked tirelessly to develop export markets, even in the face of wartime blockades and Napoleon's drive for French Empire.

These leaps forward, combined with other advances-such as improved understanding of fermentation, increase knowledge of corks and the ability to measure sugar dosage-the two low breakage rates in the superior physique yet sediment free wines we enjoy today.

That's a little about the history of champagne a lot more developments have happened along the way that here was a woman's hand and we'll it also in the man who could mind the store and blend the wine.

Have your tried making champagne, I have read several threads and articles on it, is a dangerous undertaking if not properly attired, and having the knowledge in knowing what you're working with you must have the right tools the right bottles the right corks and of course the right baseline of wine to start with.

*Choosing a base wine, you should avoid fruity, each drink kits,. Many although not all kit chaardonays a rather soft and fruity, with most of the structure provided by overpower. They need to make the most appropriate sparkling wine. Anyone keep that comes with fpacs will be a good Candide. Such sweetness usually containing a survey to rent the bottle fermentation. They know, yeast will merely consume all the sweetener, plus all of the sugar you add as well, and will over carbonate the wine. If you thinking using [fpacs kit and leaving the the pack out, be aware that those sweetening packs often contain more than simples sugar. They can also contain acids, rape cases and other flavor components, without which the wine may not taste very complete. Since get those kids and choose a dry still wine instead.

Good candidates include sauvignon blanc, dry Rieslings and anything your kit manufacturer little he describes as crisp or dry. I prefer the Rieslings has all the characteristics I like and works fine keeping in mind that the wine should exceed much more than 11% alcohol to start. Also, okay is a no-no as it tastes awful champagne. Take my word for

To be continued................. you with me so far*


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## joeswine

*Champagne continued*

There is a lot to the saga of sparkling wine way too much for me to go into but we do know that sparkling wine will improve tremendously with age. While it may be tempting to drink it all as soon as it is disgorged, try keeping back a few bottles for a year or more. You be delighted with the results.

If you not to really heavy winemaking work the middling freezing popping the cork pairing the wine Copping all these things clean using the right bottles the right cages right corks having all the necessary equipment plus good life insurance. Yes I said life insurance where the very least a good homeowners policy, then you may find that the easiest way to make sparkling wine or champagne if you choose to call it is just to out by already done life-insurance policy homeowners policy, the damages it occurred just tilt the bottle back and enjoy.

.


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## joeswine

*sparkling wine POP'S*

well we as wine makers live and learn,my friend KITO took his viognier home and added sugar to it ,in a weeks time he stated to me he liked the fizz in the wine,to that I replied WHAT FIZZ,he said the fizz like Champagne taste he developed in his viognier??????well I told him THAT SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING,well this morning I saw him and he said what a clean up he had, 12 bottles poped ,sorry he didn't listen to me ,but now the bottles were in a 3 gallon carboy with k met and settling out,LIVE AND LEARN


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## joeswine

*Food and wine pairing*

 WHAT GOES BETTER with a nice plate of a pasta then a nice deep red wine or for that matter. A white wine. Yes, it's all a matter of taste whatever you like but just say you had in front of you nice big stake than just the way you like it, what type of wine would you order then.

 The whole idea behind matching a particular wine to a certain food is to try to achieve synergy from the interaction of the flavors. You can think of wine is a super condiment. When you slather mustard on your hotdog or squeeze line on your ceviche, it's because the two taste are great together. Not many people eat mustard by itself, or suck on plain limes, but these livers produce a nice synergy combined with other foods. Wine does this as well, but with the added bonus that,,,,, it's one.

 Matching food and wine, the idea is to get the most of each part of the meal. You probably don't want to serve an old vines Zinfandel with macaroni and cheese anymore then you would serve a delicate riesling with Carolina barbecue. In the first case, the Zen would completely overwhelm the relatively innocuous flavor of the pasta and the chadder. In the second, intensely smoky, barbecue would show show up. The riesling, making it a sweet, and then. The idea is to match the intensity of the food with the power of your wine.

The big whites would include Chardonnay, sauvignon blanc,. For the Reds is the Big italians borello, amarone and Bordeaux styles at the end of the block refine zinfandels and the Shiraz. These will stand up to the most flavorful and intense foods, such as barbecue ribs, while being, and strong cheeses.......... Food and wine is like a symphony all the players have to go together to create a great ensemble........... talk to you soon, by


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## joeswine

*Amarone the king of the Reds*

 I was recently was asked, when we were doing the wine and food pairing, what should I have with amarone, my answer to that was it is a stand alone wine, unto itself and needs no other accompaniment. But, if I had to I would serve it with strong cheeses, salamis, olives and crusty bread. That in itself with the amarone would be a meal for me.

 Let's discover why amarone is in my opinion the king of the Reds, for the Italians wines. First and foremost the way it is process three distinctive red wine grapes from the Eastern Tuscany region, are left to partially dry i for about five months, the name amarone, in Italian, literally means (the great bitter,) there's another one- same region from recioto it's a sweeter version of the same wine. This process is called appassimento or rasinate (two dry and shrivel) In Italian, my advice to the person written although he is making his own amarone, was to invest in a bottle of amarone see what it was like it's true state and then try to mirror that, once you've tasted the depth and alcohol, texture and feel on your tongue, amarone in its true form, you will be able to understand why it is really hard to duplicate, but you'll come close. and you'll smile

 Did you know that amarone is the fourth biggest selling wine in Italy, imagine that


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## joeswine

*zesting*

 good to see that the numbers are good for those who would try zesting....this is a proven menthod to either add flavor or correct a fault...


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## joeswine

*Wine and cheese*

A quick word of wine, cheese is warranted: while the phrase seems to be lodged in the collective consciousness of wine to consumers, the two not actually go well together. In many cases, especially with dry white wines and most Reds. Cheese is an earthy-flavored, savory, high-fat, calorie dense food. Finding wine that enhances it is a challenge. Still, your taste may vary from mind and cheese and wine might be your favorite.


All of the above information may be correct, but to be you so we need a quick way of determining which wine to go with food and chose, and vice-versa. The best way to develop a guideline is based on flavor intensity. Although this will work in most cases, your mileage will vary; remember, what you like drinking is the ultimate arbitrator-!



The contents above is a complete, nor does it take into account the often-confusing differences between wine styles names among different manufacturers to help relate to it to its wines you may have already been exposed to from commercial bottles. Wine and food pairing is a craft and the time right and only you can choose what is right for you and the food that you're using at the time,. Hope this gives you a little insight the food and wine pairing.........................


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## Flame145

Lemon peel or zest + grappa or everclear= Limoncello

I make it every year. Also make a holiday one called Crema di Limoncello.

If you make the crema style in the summer I use oranges instead and its like drinking orange creme sickle sticks. MMMMMMMMMMMMM


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## joeswine

*Possibility's*

i GUESS i COULD AND HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT,BUT WHAT ZEST WOULD BE THE BEST ,i WAS THING ALONG THE LINES OF A GOOD AND ROBUST SANGRIA,SUMMERS ON ITS WAY AND SANGRIA'S ARE A FUN PART OF THE REFRESHMENT CATEGORY,WHAT SAY YOU?


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## Deezil

Flame145 said:


> I make it every year. Also make a holiday one called Crema di Limoncello.
> 
> If you make the crema style in the summer I use oranges instead and its like drinking orange creme sickle sticks. MMMMMMMMMMMMM



I've put a lot of thought into getting a "Cream" flavor in a wine.. And i've came up with nothing... Can you elaborate, pretty please?

Orange creamsickles are one of my favorites


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## joeswine

*cream and dream*

I think what flame was referring to was a cello,that's like a liquor,and and orange or lemon cream icicle,.


Its a combination of cello and 1/2 and 1/2 some use cream to thicken and create a orange cycle type of fkavor in the cello ,quite nice actually great for all seasons,would you like to know how to prepare?

flame how would you do it ,then I'll give you my recipes,cellos are one of my favorite items to create. if you followed along when good wines gone bad that's some of what is in the beginning.


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## Deezil

So, short of actually adding a source of dairy cream to the wine/cello... Theres no other way to come about those flavors?

Would be nice to know the Crema di Limoncello recipe anywho, sounds delicious.


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## joeswine

*Question*

 QUESTION,HAVE YOU EVER MADE A CELLO?IF NOT THEN THE FIRST ITEM IS TO LEARN THE PROCESS OF MAKING A EXTRACT,(LETS MAKE A ORANGE CELLO CREAM)
INGREDIENTS:
ORANGES,PREFER NAVAL ORANGES,THICKER SKIN MORE ZEST,SIMPLE SYRUP ,(LIQUIFIED SUGAR),EVERKLEER OR VODKA,HEAVY CREAM.
 OF THESE ITEMS WHICH HAVE YOU EVER WORKED WITH?OR WOULD YOU PREFER I JUST CONTINUE WITH THE PROCESS?MORE THAN HAPPY TO ACCOMMODATE.


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## Deezil

I havent physically made a cello, no - but i do know the process.

Basically using the zest to enhance the alcoholic spirit, followed with dilluting using simple syrup to the desired taste.

About the ingredients,

Havent made citrus wine yet, so havent worked with oranges.
Havent fortified anything yet, although im getting ready to.
I have made simply syrup, am familiar with the process

Havent used a cream at all. Questions come to mind over this ingredient, but its this facet that dragged my into the conversation in the first place. 

- When you use cream, in a recipe - does it need to be consumed in a timely fashion? Or could you wait a while?
- If you wait a while, does it still need to be refrigerated ? Or is the high alcohol/acidic environment enough to keep the cream from spoiling?

Guess it's gonna come down to an experiment on my end... 
Cheap Wine + Cream ... Slam it in a bottle with a cork and see what happens


----------



## joeswine

*Answer*

Yes to all the above making the extract takes the longest, first zest orange about 8 to 10 of them color only, place it in a ball jar, filled with either vodka or Everclear, let it settle for one month, then start your assembly. First the amount of simple syrup. You will use, that your base, then added your extract, then add the Everclear or vodka, remember it's all to your taste.


----------



## Flame145

joeswine said:


> I think what flame was referring to was a cello,that's like a liquor,and and orange or lemon cream icicle,.
> 
> 
> Its a combination of cello and 1/2 and 1/2 some use cream to thicken and create a orange cycle type of fkavor in the cello ,quite nice actually great for all seasons,would you like to know how to prepare?
> 
> flame how would you do it ,then I'll give you my recipes,cellos are one of my favorite items to create. if you followed along when good wines gone bad that's some of what is in the beginning.



After making your limoncello or Orangecello. (this should steep for one month, with stirring 2 times a day to help incorporate. After that is done its time to make the crema. The crema is made with whole milk, sugar, and vanilla beans. Its heated to a low simmer for 5 minutes then let cool. Strain vanilla beans out by pouring through a layered cheese cloth. Then add crema mixture to your alcohol. (Your limoncello). The crema thickens the whole thing. I keep mine in the freezer, and when drinking its like drinking liquid vanilla pudding. Its probably one of the most delicious things you will ever drink. 
This drink is made in Italy for an aperitif or in italian a digestivo. This year I made from both limes and a batch from lemons. In the summer I use oranges and its like drinking thick orange sickles. 
But remeber this is potent stuff, as it is made with everclear or grappa. Which is basically moonshine. 
My wife and all her girlfriend who only drink, the typical sugar or sweet wines, go nuts over this stuff. You can google it, or if you like I can post the sugar / milk / vanilla bean mixture ratio. 
The vanilla beans this year costed me $80.00 bucks to do a 10 liter batch (approximately) In my opinion thought the vanilla beans should not be skipped. It is what throws the drink over the top.


----------



## joeswine

*Vanilla bean*

Well it sounds good. However, the cream is supposed to add texture and taste, like an orange circle, but I guess it's according to one's on preference as to what they would like to add ,there is no boundaries.


----------



## Flame145

joeswine said:


> Well it sounds good. However, the cream is supposed to add texture and taste, like an orange circle, but I guess it's according to one's on preference as to what they would like to add ,there is no boundaries.



Yes it does add both texture and taste. Its a must try, then decide for yourselves. I don't think you will be disappointed


----------



## Sacalait

I'm sure the vanilla bean is best but couldn't vanilla extract be substituted?


----------



## joeswine

*To extract not to extract*

Here's the difference, using pure vanilla extract . The result is flavor . It adds nothing to the back end of the wine in the form of bite, very similar to a fpac........... Madagascar vanilla bean had quite a bit of experience with, both good and not so good, they can be very overpowering you need to experiment with it, has the potential to perfume in wine or make it not palatable.................. if you're making and extract out of it using superkleer , then it makes a wonderful cello, it can also enhance a good wine gone bad ,or, on the other . If you have a good wine, and want to put the personal touch on it, then go right ahead. DAt least that's been my experience, how about yours..................?????????????


----------



## joeswine

*Geraniums smell*

I had an e-mail and the question was asked by geraniums smell, a good answer to this would be medicine off older and wines is a serious fall cannot be corrected .. This owner is the result of reaction between ML bacteria and sorbate acid, found in potassium sorbate is to stabilize wines by inhibiting the growth of yeast and mold ..


This problem is best avoided by eliminating the use of potassium sorbate in dry wines that will be ML fermented. Because it is recommended to add potassium sorbate to prevent bottle fermentation PRIOR TO BOTTLING.

Does that answer your question?


----------



## Sacalait

My experience is about "O" on the beans. I've used some in deserts but not to enhance the flavor of liqueres or wines. $80 seemed like a lot of money to spend on one component in a 10 bottle batch of the creme liquere. I'm a little on the miserly side as you can see.
When adding the creme or milk to the everclear mixture do you add it in equal amounts so as to cut the everclear by half?


----------



## joeswine

*Always in good taste*

 IN ALL CASES WITH THESE TYPES OF PRODUCTS IT'S BY TASTE,AND TEXTURE (YOURS),ALSO TRY A TRIAL SAMPLE USING VANILLA EXTRACT YOU FINE AT THE MARKET,IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE TO WORK .


----------



## joeswine

*Judging, give-and-take*

 HERE'S A LITTLE SOMETHING I WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE ENTERED CONTEST WHETHER THERE WERE LOCAL OR ACROSS THE COUNTRY ,. JUDGING IS A MATTER OF TASTE ..

I KNOW THAT SOME USE HAVE ENTERED MANY CONTESTS SOME USE HAVE ON MANY METALS , AND SUMMER USE MAY NOT HAVE ONE AT ALL , . I FALL INTO THE ABOVE CATEGORY, I want to share with you an experience I had a very large wine competition. I will tell you which one it was BECAUSE I WITH THE JUDGE'S FIRST WANT TO BE SUED, AND REMEMBER WINE JUDGING IS UP TO THE TASTE. SO WE'LL TAKE THE SLOW AND HERE WE GO.


THE FIRST CATEGORY WILL TALK ABOUT IS A PLUM WINE NOW WANT TO MAKE MY PLUM WINE AND USUALLY ALWAYS MAKE IT WITH FRESH FRUIT, SO LET'S KEEP THAT IN MIND. USUALLY IS. IT HAS SET FOR ALMOST A YEAR BEFORE I EVEN THINK ABOUT BOTTLING. SO THAT'S THE STAGE


SO LET'S REVIEW WITH THREE JUDGES THOUGHT ABOUT MY PLUM WINE. THE CATEGORIES FOR CRITERIA WERE AS FOLLOWS, APPEARANCE, AROMA AND BOUQUET, BALANCE, BODY/TEXTURE, TASTE/FLAVOR, FINISH AND OVERALL QUALITY .


THE FIRST CRITERIA, WAS APPEARANCE, JUDGE ON GAMING ON OUT OF TWO POINTS FOR PERIODS HER COMMENT IS GREATCOLOR 


JUDGE NUMBER TWO DEBBIE A MAXIMUM OF TWO OTHER TWO WITH THE COMMENT A VERY NICE COLOR.

JUDGE NUMBER THREE GIMME A MAXIMUM TWO OUT OF TWO WITH THE COMMENT OF GOOD DEEP COLOR . SO FAR SO GOOD

NEXT CATEGORY WAS AROMA AND BOUQUET:

JUDGE NUMBER ONE- IN THE FOUR OUT OF FOUR , THE COMMENTS WERE COMPLEX FREE. SO FAR SO GOOD

JUDGE NUMBER TWO GAVE ME A THREE OUT OF FOUR , COMMENT nose BETTER THAN FLAVOR 

JUDGE NUMBER THREE- GAVE ME A ONE OUT OF FOUR , COMMENTS WERE, ABSENT OF AROMA BOUQUET .

I GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO REREAD THAT AND THEN COME BACK TO IT .................


----------



## ibglowin

OK,

I read it twice......

Now what!


----------



## Sacalait

Kind of like Supreme Court decisions, you have to take what you get, there is no recourse.


----------



## joeswine

*Patients...........................*

YOUR RIGHT LIKE A COURT DISS ION ,SHOWS THE DIFFERENCES IN PERSONAL TASTE,AND IF YOU GET CONTEST BOUND,YOU TAKE THE VERDICT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT (AS THEY SAY) ...........NOT TO GET OUT OF BALANCE IF RESULTS ARE NOT IN YOUR FAVOR ..........BUT I'll CONTINUE AND YOU'LL SEE HOW THIS PLAYS OUT.THESE ARE SOME OF THOSE THINGS THAT COME WITH TIME. ...CONTINUED..................SO THAT IF YOUR NEW TO WINE MAKING AND WOULD LIKE TO ENTER A CONTEST,TAKE THE ENDING AS CONSTRUCTIVE NOT DESTRUCTIVE CRIDISSIUM .


----------



## joeswine

*The juries out*

PLUM WINE WILL CONTINUE


----------



## joeswine

*The plum wine saga*

Okay we first it aroma and appearance ,the mix. Category *is balance *
. .Judge number one. 1.5 of a possible three points maximu,, India 1.5. The remarks wer. See but astringent 

JudJudge number. gave me one out of three the comments were way to suite for a dry wine category into low in acid to be balance . 
Judge number three gave me two out of two the comment was balanced appropriate to type . 


So far, I'm not doing so bad in this particular category, let's move onto body and texture .

Judge number one, gave me a one out of two , the comments were velvety and a little acidic .

 Judge number two same category game you two out of two the comments were rich and thick 

Judge number three game you two are the two rich and luscious................. sicking you see the difference between . The comments between balance and the comments between body and texture a lot of this becomes matter of personal taste ........... That's w at this exercise is all about to show the new people if you want to enter contest the results that come backmay not be what you expect  . Now *we'll going to taste and flavor,taste ,. Two out of four from judge one, comments fruity, including *

* Judge number two, okay except for the sulfite but still fruity and robust*

* Judge number three, two out of four , , it's slightly acidic background taste sweet lychees.*

* Finish,Judge number one two out of two - Judge number two, one out of two, and finally Judge number three two out of two . *
* Overall, this competition with the plum wine I received a bronze medal ................ Once again ,*
* if you read all results you see the differences in the judges ,, but it's gratifying just to get verbal results back ... There were 52 wines in this category. J *

.,


----------



## joeswine

*What does it take to age a wine?*

If you follow this thread, when good wines gone bad in most cases, you'll notice that making wine takes partners ,let's take fresh juice. For example. The type of juice partnered with the correct yeast to give it characteristics. Whatever those characteristics are with a smooth , spicy, but ever the flavor notes are the first to partners must stand together .taking a step further blending the wines together creates a complex and if partnership ,in this section were going to talk about first use and/or kit and not grapes............ I don't know enough about grapes..


Some truly remarkable changes occur when wine is allowed to age. Simple initial aromas give way to apanoply of rounded, complex bouquets. Let's take Cabernet for example, you can take a tantalizing, spicy, plummy flavor. Or Riesling can eventually show wonderful, perfumed, tropical fruit aromas with a mineral edge. But not all wines age well. Your wines must be capable aging by their eight properties-they must have the right stuff. Generally wines the high acidity and flavor compounds and, with red wines, high tenors in order to age well. Weinstein potential alcohol also make good age worthy examples. Storage is another aspect of aging gracefully.
Have you ever noticed, notice how sometimes your wines from one year to the next take on a different hue, sometimes the same only doesn't exactly taste or turn out the way he did last year, that's how these partnerships work they work with each other to make the wine better a can also work against each other to make the wine not as good so what does it take to make a wine worthy of time ?.......... to be continued


----------



## joeswine

*Signing off for a while*

 Well people, it's that time of the year when just before it starts give busy my air-conditioning season I need to take a break ,, so I'll be out of touch for while ,but I'll be back, meanwhile *think outside the box . And thanks for staying tuned*
.


----------



## joeswine

*Partners in wine*

Good to be back, I see that I had just as consistent views of this thread, and I think you. Earlier We talked about aging wine interesting subject very deep compared to the wines we make whether kits or juice or fresh fruit, one thing is consistent you need quality overall product to start with. I Hope you get the meaning of* wine good wines gone bad, it's not so much a phrase as it is as a guide and if you look at it as a guide is not how much wine you make it how much wine you make good and that's the difference ,knowing your partners the yeast to the juice, being your own kit maker, the fruit to the yeast ,to the temperature , to types of corks use, the mating of the different characteristics of each wine if you're blending, in which each of them ran out the other, knowing the true characteristics of the wine that you're making to start with really is the essence of when good wines gone bad.. Aging wine is the culmination of all that. Unfortunately for us not all the time do we produce a good bottle of wine, but I think if everyone will take a look at your cellar you would find at least one bottle of wine that you could make different or better if you're truthful to yourself .. I know wineries down here in South Jersey. I have had discussions with, in some cases made batches of jet alcohol ,and these are with a very experienced people ,. So when you read this thread good wines gone bad understand where I'm coming from in a common direct , all these different characteristics of wine making I'm truly not the master of it but I made enough mistakes along the way to understand where I can change, redirect and correct as I go along, if it's not too late. By working in partnership with the wine and not just fermenting grapes or juice or or connecting dots in the kit, this is understanding the basic functionality ,of how to make wine, understanding what I'm looking at this is how a winemaker becomes better-than-average . So once again.. Thanks for following the thread even though I've been gone and will start talking about one characteristics aging wine in a few days ... Thank you .................. and stay tuned..*


----------



## joeswine

*Have been under the weather*

Sorry for the delay in the post just coming off into week bronchial cold ........... will start again Monday. Thank you


----------



## joeswine

*More about aging of wine*

Little is known about the shift in color white wines as they age. What has been proposed is that the eventual Browning of white wines is due to the oxidation of their phenolics or color pigmentation . , Effects of metal ions and formalization of residual sugars . Why wines we begin nearly colorless to light straw and yellow gold and take on many , many Gracie Hughes as they age, and finally become burnished gold, Amber- Brown. Most to me wines, except ice wine and similar sweet dessert wines, will have the capability to become AmberBrown. Ayone can reach an unhealthy, premature Brown if exposed to excessive storage temperatures over the long term. Probably made and stored white wines usually take decades to reach the healthy Amber Brown colors ,far beyond the lifespan of most to me wines, seven the most predictable seven throw off and white wines is crystals of potassium by bitartrate. Rewinds through all of those these crystals to, rewinds through all these crystals to, b*ut *they are harder to see because of the presence of other sentiments.. In my experience, these crystals manifest sooner and dryer wines and sweeter ones .generally white ones that have . This is due to the added tens preferred by the bow world chips. The more aromatic whites, such as Riesling and not subjected to either Oak fermentation or maceration. Because these processes wouldn't mess the aromasa and aromatics . Whites affected by noble rot harbor a greater potential for aging and other whites . Whites wines made from botrytis- affected grapes have a much higher concentration of acids and sugars then the non-botrytic wines and can, as a result tolerate extended aging.
* To be continued............... does this answer your question/*


----------



## joeswine

*Temperature in the aging of wine*

Temperature plays a paramount role both in the aging – ability of your wine early on during fermentation and aging of your bottle wines .fermentation temperatures dictate the types of testers that are generated, which directly affect the age – ability of the wine. More favorable esters are formed when popular ferment temperature is maintained. Better varietal character will also emerge. If you follow up optimum fermentation temperatures. Therefore,, controlling temperature of fermenting wine is very important . Below 10° Celsius or 50°F most use will be to slow –or completely inactive – and may give way to a stuck fermentation. Which you often find the question asked here on this website ,above 45° Celsius and 13°F, yeast are too damaged or dead ferment your wine. Cleanly. Wallace temperature seems excessive,. These conditions can occur. Your wine can easily be run in just a few hours, or less if left in this environment . In the upper temperature ranges ,where the yeast are still working – from 27°C or 80°F to middle 32° Celsius or 90°F or higher – some chemical reactions are sped up and can bring want him one of flavor compounds. See too high is no good to Lowe's to the that's why it's always great consultant . They wine chart or wine yeast chart when choosing your type of wine that you are going to make with your yeast capabilities . Also a higher temperature,. Some of the good flavor compounds can be carried away by excessive CO2. The wine can easily end up blowing fruitiness and can smell and taste overly baked. If the fermentation temperature is allowed to rise to a point release virtual, the yeast cells extrude compounds that prevent any subs was yeast from working ,even after the law schools.. As in most cases using the wrong ingredients for the wrong job doesn't work out 

To be co*ntinued................*


----------



## joeswine

*White wines*

Why wines are particularly fermented a cold temperatures –between 12° and 70°C or 54°F and 63° –then red wines. The lower temperature preserves the primary grape aromatics . With white wine fermentation, there is no maceration of the grape skins with a must. The more aromatic white varieties require fermentation temperatures at the lower end of the range to preserve the perfumed aromatics. Such as Riesling, Muscat and others. Less aromatic whites Chardonnay,verdicchio,muscadet can benefit from fermentation temperatures near to the upper end of the range because they may take a secondary fermentation aromas from barrel fermentation ,, such as vanilla, Oak and buttery characteristics ,and, please contact, which offers a yeasty ,bready characteristic.

So you see, and white wines temperature means a lo*t *consider this when you doing this next batch of white wine the area that you're doing it in actual wine temperature itself type of characteristics are going to achieve ....... to be continued ..


----------



## tonyt

Everyone should understand that this topic "when good wine has gone bad" is kind of Joe's personal corner of the forum. He takes winemaking topics and explains them in some detail in his own way. Sometimes (like now) the topic is above my head and I don't understand it. Sometimes Joe's thoughts get ahead of himself and is difficult to understand. I have traded wine with Joe and I can tell you all that JOE MAKES SOME KILLER WINE. He has given me some great advice and I really appreciate that. I have had good wine go bad androids Joe has helped me bring some bad wine back. Thanks Joe, and let me know how I did on that Amarone.


----------



## robie

Keep up the good work, Joe. Caps or not caps, you are a great asset and have helped many of us.


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## ibglowin

And your out of here as the umpire used to say.



MartyYule said:


> Your probably right


----------



## Rocky

Thank you, Mike. I enjoy and value Joe's "column" here on the forum. I can always find a few invaluable nuggets that will improve my wine.


----------



## ibglowin

Sorry folks. Hate to do that but some people just do not play well with others.


----------



## Deezil

MartyYule was continuously disrespectful.
This thread has since been cleaned up out of respect for Joe and the knowledge he shares with us all.

Hope that solves any confusion anyone may be experiencing.


----------



## Deezil

Just to let you all know, i've done some more clean up on this thread. It's the last time i'll be doing this without someone else getting banned. Play nice or you wont be playing here. Considering we're here to make wine, its safe to assume 99.9999% of us are of drinking-age and therefor should be capable of being adults. If you lack the social skills for that, call your parents and inform them because obviously they forgot a life lesson along the way. I've had enough. Grow up and show some respect.

Hey Joe,
Whenever your ready, we're awaiting another one of your lessons to help steer this whole thread back on track.. Enlighten us when you find time, please.


----------



## g8keeper

Deezil said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Whenever your ready, we're awaiting another one of your lessons to help steer this whole thread back on track.. Enlighten us when you find time, please.


amen manley....i 2nd that....


----------



## aylamarie

I have a question about the zesting part, please. I may have missed the answer. So when you go to the zesting to you sterilize the fruit or just rinse them well under water?


----------



## joeswine

*What happened?*

Sorry, did I miss something? Hope everyone is having great and holiday been very busy with air-conditioning work, haven't had time for myself but you know what they say you have to make hay while the sun shines, and as long as there is heat and humidity in New Jersey I will always be busy .

Tony T it is wine time........ I will get back to you on Monday people have a great weekend ..........


----------



## joeswine

*Zesting*

What was your primary question about zesting, which are likely to go over and brief many fine partnership to compliment your wine, cellos, and or corrective measures, ?which are pleasure...


----------



## Deezil

aylamarie said:


> So when you go to the zesting to you sterilize the fruit or just rinse them well under water?



Tis the question


----------



## joeswine

*Answer to the question*

No,, the only sanitation required is to wash the fruit of any of its contaminants and by the way ,water is a good way of doing it ,, b*ut *if you have a lot of berries and you're making a mild solution of water and white vinegar will help kill the mold and bacteria . Then once again rinse and prepare for and F pac,,,, zesting, just requires clean skin .


Wo*uld still like to know what happened ?*
/


----------



## joeswine

*Cleaning up the question*

It seems tannic acids in barrel fermentation , aging seem to mask over the potassium bitarate crystals, because of the these sentiments in the wine . The crystals manifest themselves soon, and dropout. 


There are formal articles written on the chemistry of wine .


----------



## joeswine

*Understanding potential alcohol*

Here's were sometimes I have a shortcoming .and that's why I always try to fortify my alcohol normally at one point 010 , that's right. Like all to start. 
T
There are three ways to refer to the sweetness of a must – brixs, specific gravity and the potential alcohol . . Both brixs and specific gravity are scales utilized to measure the relative amount of sugar in a juice or must . 
S
Brixs Is is expressed in degrees , is degree equivalent to 1 g of sugar ( especially sucrose () per 1is approximation only.the predicted alcohol level of wine is expressed as ,degrees brixs multiplied by 0.55 equals percentage of alcohol . in other words 22 brixs will not ferment to 11% of alcohol, but slightly over 12% .brixs- is named after its inventor , Adolph brixs 

We let's face it, without the alcohol why would we want to drink it? getting alcohol right in understanding how to use a hydrometer- its the key to any winemakers formula . if your not sure of how to read a hydrometer, ask someone, I did after, started to understand he of chemistry win. I move much faster throughout the process . if you don't have a hydrometer there is no recommendation for you , it a must have a piece of equipment every winemaker has to have ,you should know how to use and read and have a backup one , when you break it , and you will. U






To be continued...................................... have a great night .


----------



## joeswine

*Good vibrations*

Let's see, we talked about light affecting the wine , temperature affecting the wine , time affecting the wine, how about vibration? 

This is something that is very little talked about and all not altogether understood . Story wines in the cellar for your vibration seems to be based more on a romantic ideal that on a empirical evidence. There is no clear indication that vibration has any ill effect on the aging process, the vibration may impede the natural clarification process and the usual sedimentation of phenolic substances . MyMy view, . Why take the chance? If you're ultimate storage area is vibration free all about her . On the other hand, you shouldn't worry needlessly if the 519 train goes a slight trembling to your wine room as it rumbles by . 
On the subject of transporting bottle wine, is always a good idea to allow the wine to recover , before opening. the low road trip, the lower the recovery.. Mrs. the primary reason white wine kit recipe we suggest that you sample the first bottle at least one month after bottling , . This is the. Time. And newly bald wine needs to recover from " bottle shock " .transporting bottles in an upright position is less harmful because the air gap, or utilization will barely stir up the wine . transporting bottles in a horizontal position allow the air bubbles to travel the length of the bottle close the wine to stir considerably . 

So now you, traveled with bottles upright position and not to worry ..................... some of the tips seem minor but they all play a role in the game we call wine making . .......... are you with me so farI
.?


----------



## tonyt

Good tipic Joe. So why do they say not to store wine directly on the floor. Or is that old BS.


----------



## joeswine

*tonyt*

CAN BE TIPPED OVER AND BRAKE?


VIBRATION IS ALL AROUND US,CAN'T STOP IT FROM HAPPENING,EVEN IN THE DEEPEST WINE CAVERANS THE EARTH SEND OUT SIZE MIC VIBRATIONS,NOT AUDIBLE TO THE HUMAN EAR,OR SENSES,IT ALL HAS TO DO I THINK MAINLY WITH THE CLARIFICATION PROCESS,MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE,AT LEAST THAT'S MY TAKE.HOW ABOUT YOU?


----------



## joeswine

*Additionally*

I DID DO SOME RESEARCH ON THE SUBJECT AND IT SEEMS IT ALSO HAS THE DO WITH THE ACCELERATION OF THE AGING PROCESS,BY MOVING THE MOLECULES FASTER THE AGING PROCESS CAN STEED UP AND NOT IN A GOOD WAY,AT LEAST SOME RESEARCH SHOWS ,ALSO IT DOESN'T ALLOW FOR THE WINE TO SETTLE OUT NATURALLY ,THIS THEN DOESN'T LET THE NATURAL FLAVORS TO COME FORTH AND AROMAS....INTERESTING.


----------



## joeswine

*Oxygen friend or foe*

Oxygen, we needed to breathe and to regenerate life ,. But how does it affect wine? 
This is a subject that touches every , from the smallest amateur winemaker to the largest . One reason world and as I have explored and done some research only to find that is it is a subject without end.

So let's start, . Although court – Stoppard wines intentionally allow for new school amounts of oxygen to see it over a period of time , is beyond this can prevent the proper development of bouquet. an ARE
.proper varietal. are as. can Also be obscured or destroyed. . Some wines are more affected by oxygen and other.,. for Example. WHILE T are low in acidity.,.. Those traits that . allow the wine to age . ex PH rises. or acidity falls.,. the potential for oxidation increase. wh W pH rises ,the wines phenols react to each other and fall out as sentiment , increasing the wines potential for oxidation . wines with a higher pH have lower potential for aging an and wines with a lower, ma*ke any sense .*

* Listen close because this is going get tricky *


----------



## ibglowin

We like tricky Joe!


----------



## joeswine

*A double-edged sword*

Oxygen, can prove to be a double-edged sword if not used properly and with a considerable amount of knowledge. We're cellar dwellers don't have to deal with a lot of things that modern wineries do, b*ut *we still have to deal with oxygen, whether it's to enhance their wine or corrupt wine that come in contact with it and wine comes in contact with it every day, even when it sealed in small molecular amounts and sometimes a little larger, sometimes it's just a bad seal on a carboy or poor bottling practices. introduce wine to oxygen even though we take precautions. Let me run 
some things by you , . Here is a process that deals with micro oxygenation, * yes that's for real, micro – oxygenation is a process used in winemaking to introduce oxygen into the wine in a controlled manner . Developed in 1991 working with exceptional tannic grape tannat in madiran, process being usage in modern winemaking following the 1996 authorization by the European commission . Today the technique is widely used in Bordeaux as well as at least 11 different countries , including the United States and Chile.*
* So here we go ,introducing oxygen into the wine to help bring out flavors, and different nuances , in the wine. *
* I*
* Oxygen, can be our friend not only when we do fermentation but after , you just have to know how to handle ........... to be continued.............. told you this is when the tricky*


----------



## joeswine

*The process*

THERE ARE PROCESS IN PLACE FOR INTRODUCING OXYGEN INTO THE WINE AND ITS A FINE BALANCING ACT.BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE CORK A BOTTLE, WITH HEAD SPACE LEFT AND THE OXYGEN LEFT WITH-IN?..WHATS THE DIFFERENCE IN RED WINES AGING IN A BARREL,DOES IT BREATH?DOES OXYGEN AFFECT THE WINES AROMAS AND STRUCTURE?OR DOES IT WEATHER IT DOWN?...


TO BE CONTINUES.


----------



## joeswine

*The process*

This is for those deep thinkers, the process of micro oxygenation involves a large two chambered device with valves interconnecting to a tank of oxygen .in the first chamber that oxygen is calibrated to match the volume of the wine. In the second chamber the oxygen is injected into the wine through a porous ceramic, stone located at the bottom of the chamber.. The dosage is controlled and change range anywhere from .7523 cubic centimeters per liter of wine.. The process normally occurs in multiple treatments that can at last anywhere from one or two treatments during the early stages of fermentation (to help avoid stuck fermentation )to a more prolonged treatment during maceration period that can last four to eight months. 


It has an impact on color, aromatic bouquet, mouth feel and fall phenolics content. ..............* how's that for process. *S


----------



## joeswine

*Headspace the final frontier*

NOW ,ASK YOURSELF HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH OR TOO LITTLE ? TO BE CONTINUED


----------



## joeswine

*Oxygen in the wine*

B*enefits*

The exposure of wine to oxygen in limited quantities can be beneficial to the wine . There needs to be a bounce too much oxygen can lead to oxidation and too little can lead to reduction and the ensuing wine faults . In Oak barrel aging, the natural properties of wood allows for a gentle erudition of the wine to occur over prolonged .period . This means in the polymerization of 10 to larger molecules , , which are perceived on the palate at softer . The perception of micro-oxygenation aims to mimic the effects of slow barrel naturalization Leisure. And for less of the long-term costs associated with Oak barrels . It also enables more control over this process, as opposed to barely observing it in such a natural material containers is barrels . 
During fermentation, the added oxygen can help maintain viability the yeast to minimize the risk stuck fermentation in the production of undesirable sulfite's . . After fermentation it
. be Bme a. in Hie clarification and stabilization. of Ohe wine. wi Wout resorting to the use of fining agents.. 


So here we are a double-edged sword too much is no good too little is now the ,control and balance that is the basic policy of the body and the structure of the wine remember we started this a long time ago . The body and the structure of wine this is a key component for without it component .  .To be continuedN


----------



## joeswine

*Finding and filtering*

Aging can be accelerated by removing the solids of a young wine. More solids removed, the shorter the successful age. Of your wine, generally because the solids help to bring out the evolved aromas and flavors of your aged wine. Some of the suspended solids and have your constituents will be removed during the finding and filtering process. Follow the recipe directions I recommend that you use a manually powered filtered unit when filtering, send you can control the pressure and the speed at which the wine is processed through the filter pads . Motorized machines tender fillet quickly and can strip away more than needs to be removed, taking the stuffing out of the wine . Although winemakers may disagree. You may find a comfortable middle ground by using a motorized filtration unit that offers multiple speeds ,, allowing you to filter your wine slowly or quickly . The advantage of the motorized unit is that the flow of the wine is steady. Remember that any wine kit requires finding or filtering this is just about everyone kit on the market, has been formulated to endure and the wine well eventually blossom, showing its every taste and talent . All you need is a little patience. 

I myself, filter via a pump I have a Bruno jet many filter , and the new in-line filter system that I bought here and the website . I Bruno jet pump , is something that come become accustomed to using bearing the filtered grades , spacing of the time voiding as much oxygen as I can it it has always been a trusted friend to, the new pump I get to use but I will soon it takes me time to get acclimated to new products but as long as I have it on hand . I know I can take my time do my research and give it a test run . 
I don't believe that there is one stage of wine process that is more critical than the other , I think all of you who read this will agree and filtering in finding is no different . patients is required at all times by understanding what the different filtered grades can do for your wine . It makes a marked difference in the sediment that sometimes becomes suspended and settles out later in the bottle from polishing wine . It's great to have the flexibility of using different pads . A

So far on this thread we' we've come along. Thanks for staying with me ...............* will continue.............*


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## joeswine

*Sanitation. What does it mean to me?*

Everyone says that the making of wine begins in the ground with the vine the dirt sunlight the air and water, to that I agree but what happens once it hits you and me? 

In most cases fresh juice the sterile and so our kso that case when we need to sanitize , and clean every item that comes in contact the wine . For those of you who make kits , . The very first things you'll read from the manufacturer is clean and sanitize all equipment , enough your binder juice from the manufacturer like Walker's , bill also come with instructions and very first item on their to do list is to sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine . Fresh juice on the other hand does not for the most part come with how-to instructions , . Basically you 6 gallons bucket of wine . Open it up yeast in it , , meaning maybe finding. . Agent with 24 hours ,for the yeast to activate one of those in the specific gravity and away you go . 

If the preparation you do before it goes the secondary vessel that makes the difference, sanitizing can be achieved in many forms and with a variety of chemicals , when and how we use these chemicals can make a difference in the result of our wine . 

If you think we back can if you've been following – when good wines gone bad – I mentioned the partnership between wines and blending , this is very close to the same thing is a partnership to bacteria, and the chemistry of of the the. the partnership of the yeast the bacteria Weather by potassium metabolic sulfate powder , campden caplets these are just some of the chemicals that play a role and it's partnership in the making of wine 

But let's get back to what we were discussing sanitation methods and partnerships in cleaning and sanitizing. 

*To be continued.................*


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## joeswine

*The sanitation cycle*

Actually, it's never-ending and rightfully so .

Inspect equipment, , sanitize equipment, clean equipment, sanitize equipment, rents equipment, cleaning equipment, sanitizing , allow let air dry and then store . 


Seems like it doesn't, but why should I sanitize. Generally speaking , anything that comes in contact with your wine must or wine must be sanitize - and this especially includes your hands , which are a great source of microorganisms and lactic acid bacteria . . The most common pieces of wine making equipment that require sanitation include stoppers or bonds , airlocks, carboys, bottles , to be,thermometer, fermenting bucket or demmi John, wineries, , simple jars, hydrometer's bottling wand or systems , racking cane, siphoning equipment , measuring devices such as cups and spoons and stirring paddles, rods and spoons . 


*What are approved sanitation methods for winemakers *


* To be continued......... Thanks for hanging in there *


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## Neviawen

We're still with you! Thanks for the info! ~Kate


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## joeswine

*Neviawen*

GLAD TO HEAR IT.

I WAS WITH TOM LAST NIGHT AND I WILL PICK HIM UP NEXT FRIDAY FOR BREAKFAST THEN WILL GO TO MY PLACE AND HE WILL GET ME ON AS A MODERATOR ,FOR THE SOUTH JERSEY WINE MAKERS.
( TO ALL READERS)
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO KNOW TOM ,HE IS HOLDING HIS OWN AT THE MOMENT,ITS A VERY HARD FIGHT ,ALL UP HILL,31ST I WILL PICK HIM UP AND TAKE HIM TO BREAKFAST,GO TO MY HOUSE DO A LITTLE WORK HE WANT TO SEE AND THEN TAKE HIM HOME ,PROBABLE WILL IN STALL WASH SINK IN HIS BASEMENT FOR HIM TOWARDS THE END OF THE DAY,HE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ONE,THAT'S WHAT WINE MAKING DOES,IT CAN TURN ASSOCIATES IN TO FRIENDS THROUGH THE BOND OF A COMMON IDEAS .


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## joeswine

*Neviawen*

GLAD TO HEAR IT.

I WAS WITH TOM LAST NIGHT AND I WILL PICK HIM UP NEXT FRIDAY FOR BREAKFAST THEN WILL GO TO MY PLACE AND HE WILL GET ME ON AS A MODERATOR ,FOR THE SOUTH JERSEY WINE MAKERS.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO KNOW TOM ,HE IS HOLDING HIS OWN AT THE MOMENT,ITS A VERY HARD FIGHT ,ALL UP HILL,31ST I WILL PICK HIM UP AND TAKE HIM TO BREAKFAST,GO TO MY HOUSE DO A LITTLE WORK HE WANT TO SEE AND THEN TAKE HIM HOME ,PROBABLE WILL IN STALL WASH SINK IN HIS BASEMENT FOR HIM TOWARDS THE END OF THE DAY,HE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ONE,THAT'S WHAT WINE MAKING DOES,IT CAN TURN ASSOCIATES IN TO FRIENDS THROUGH THE BOND OF A COMMON IDEAS .


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## joeswine

*Tom a good day*

Well as I stated I picked up time today ,this is Friday, around 930 he he lives in delanco which is about an hour for me I brought him his sink the faucet snuggle back later installed for him .

Took him to lunch a place called Barbara Ann's in Clayton New Jersey small little bistro basically American food , we had our lunch settle for my house came down the basement and proceeded to set me up as a moderator for our South Jersey winemakers website . I could see you as very tired so after he got done it to come directly home , it's an uphill fight. H


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## ibglowin

We are always thinking and praying for Tom these days. Know its an uphill fight but never give up, never surrender!


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## joeswine

*He needs support*

He needs all of your support, it hurts me to think I'm losing another friend and fellow winemaker. If you are reading this then send- e-mail telling him your thinking of him, he would very much appreciated it.


In this hurry up world we live in it takes times like this to appreciate what we have and those we're losing . G

Thank you all for following when good winegone bad.... JP


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## Runningwolf

Thanks for the update, Joe.


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## joeswine

*Getting back sanitation*

The most basic for sanitation use by canning people is boiling water and grade disinfectant cleaner, but not really effective for the home winemaker .



Chlorine, is a basic household bleach is the most universal acceptable sanitizer and is an excellent cleaner and disinfectant. However,  if wine making equipment is not rinsed well with this copious amounts of hot water after sanitation, you may inadvertently leave small chlorine residue behind. At the very least ,this will impart off taste to your wine -or worse, it can ruin your wine. If you can handle the cleaning methods with chlorine- even though it is a great sanitizer, * don't do it. *


I personally use a very small amount of chlorine when ID label sanitize my bottles in the primary stage of their cleaning , and that's all, cause you never know where you're getting your wine bottles from, what may be in them, or how long it's been in the only way to really sanitize bottles, unless you used the system small amount of bleach on large amount of water and then thoroughly cleaned.
 * b-BRITE, 's proprietary formulated sanitizer powder made specifically for the wine making in beer making industry it cleans with active oxygen , and does not contain chlorine or by sulfite's. it also removes fermentation residues , so I recommend this type of cleaner , easy clean is another brand of oxygen cleaner just like one step and b-BRITE these great cleaners I recommend , all three brand . *
*D*
* Will continue great holiday *


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## joeswine

*Last but not least*

 What we went through the gauntlet of cleaners last but not least is potassium metabisulfite we can always buy potassium metabisulfite in powder form ,usually sold to home winemakers in 4 ounce bags are 1 pound bags. This chemical works well as a sanitizing agent because it is a bacterial inhibitor. Since there is no and earth materials in this form you don't need to add a lot of crystals to make a great sanitizing solution .usually 1 teaspoon crystals is in 1 gallon of water to make solution comparison. Will somewhere out there is another thread about sanitizing and cleaning ,I also hope this little bit is informative enough to make you make the correct decision for you is critically important to clean and sanitize .that's all for now............. Say tunedN


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## Lkerr918

I would like to say this is a great thread. As I am just a beginner with only 8 batches of wine made so far. I have learned so much from this thread. I would just like to say thank you for the knowledge you are passing on to us new guys in the hobby. 
Cheers Logan


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## joeswine

*Lkeerr918*

THANK YOU FOR THE REPLY,I TRY TO EXTEND THE PIT FALLS AND ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS WELL AS THE DO'S AND DON'T THAT ALL OF US, WHO HAVE BEEN MAKING WINE FOR A WHILE ,NOW, RUN INTO UNDER NORMAL CONDITIONS,AND WHAT IT TAKES TO GO INTO COMPETITIONS, (IT DOESN'T MATTER), THE PROCESS IS THE SAME,JUST THE HORSE CHANGES,THANKS AGAIN,AND REMEMBER THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX,HAVE FUN.


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## joeswine

*Wine faults*

 Okay, we are getting into the wine making season everybody take a look at your toolbox got everything you need? 
Let's go

Let's talk about wine faults and/or defects that are common to us as home winemakers . . What are wine faults or defect . It's an unpleasant characteristic of the wine often resulting from poor wine making practices storage conditions, a leading to wine spoilage. . Many of the compounds that cause wine faults are already naturally present in the wine but add in sufficient concentrations to adversely affected it . . In fact, depending on the precipitation , . These concentrations may impart positive characteristics to the wine., however when the concentration of these compounds greatly exceeds the sensory thresholds , they replace or obscure the flavors and aromas that wine should be expressing . ultimately the quality of the wine is reduced, making it less appealing and sometimes just undrinkable . 

 There are many causes for the precipitation in wine faults ranging from poor hygiene at the winery excessive and or insufficient exposure of wind oxygen , excessive or insufficient exposure of wine to sulfur , overextended maceration of wine either pre-or post-fermentation , faulty finding , filtering the stabilization of the wine , , the use of dirty oak barrels or extended barrel aging and the use of poor quality corks . outside of the winery and in our basement and cellers . when We make our wine we are at the same level of wine faults or defects . . These include poor storage of wine that's exposes to excessive heat and temperature fluctuations, as well as the use of dirty utensils during wine making that can introduce materials or aromas to, What was previously a clean and fault free wine . 

 Before we go on , let's discuss the differences between flaws and faults .differences made between what is considered a flaw in a fault . wine flaws are mirrored attributes that depart from what is perceived as a normal wine characteristics .. These include excessive sulfur dioxide , volatile acidity , Brett aromas and or buttery aromas . . The amount to which these aromas or attributes become excessive it is dependent on the particular taste or recognition threshold a wine taster has . , so let's put this way . The one thing you should know before you make wine is first of all what type of wine my making is a Cabernet . Do you know what Cabernet Savignon is supposed to taste like and what are the characteristics of the wine.further back in this thread you'll find wine characteristics, (knowing your wines characteristic)
You should know the taste makeup Cabernet Savignon if that's what you're trying to make.
 Generally, a wine exhibits these qualities are still considered drinkable by most. however , some flaws, such as volatile acidity can be considered a flaws when they are in such excess that the issue will overwhelm the components of the wine . wine faults are generally major attributes that make a wine undrinkable, Two most wine tasters. things that you should recognize , cork taint, ethyl acetate and oxidation are some common ones 

 So many times at our wine meetings ,I hear somebody say hey, try this just made it this year , the bottle gets past smells real bad off odors and by the way it doesn't taste like the wine its label on the bottle .knowing your wine characteristics is very important its the difference between starting out making wine , learning what the correct sanitation needs are having the proper tools and knowing the characteristics and process of your wine making .. Most of these things come with time, practice and the ability to want to make a good bottle of wine.. 
 Defects,Also wine tasting the best majority of wine falsity acted by the nose and distinctive aromas that they give off.these are the same qualities that make a good wine , good .. You can tell when you open a bottle of good wine doesn't have a good aroma ?does it have good color ? when you swirling glass doesn't have legs ? . And last but not least doesn't taste like the wine you purchased ? , but you'll never know that . If you don't know the characteristics of the wine that You're making,let's move on .
 Let's say for example premature oxidation can notice by the yellowing in the Browning of wine color . sign of gas bubbles in wines that are not meant sparkling can be a sign of re-fermentation or malolactic fermentation happening in the bottle . usually Raced into the color of the wine can be a sign of excessive copper iron ore proteins that will not remove during finding or filtering. a wine with an unusual color for its variety or wine region could be the sign of excess or insufficient maceration ( that's if you're using grapes were fresh product ) or as well as poor temperature controls during fermentation. tactile Clues a potential one faults include, the burning that acidic taste associates with the volatile acidity's that can make a wine scene out of balance . 

Next up Wine faults and characteristics F


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## joeswine

*Newsflash*

First place, Vineland wine Festival, semidry white,piesporter.


Third place, , Zinfandel pomegranate 

Good to know efforts go reward


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## ibglowin

Congrats Joe!


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## joeswine

*Wine faults*

LETS GO OVER SOME OF THE ONES WE CAN ENCOUNTER IN OUR WINE MAKING EXPERIENCES.

FIRST OXIDATION,

THIS IS THE MOST COMMON OF WINE FAULTS AS THE PRESENCE OF OXYGEN AND A CATALYST ARE THE ONLY REQUIREMENTS FOR THIS PROCESS TO OCCUR. 

THIS IS EXCEPT ABLE IF YOUR MAKING A TYPE OF PORT ,ONLY. WHICH IS INTENTIONALLY OXIDIZED.

OXIDATION CAN AND DOES OCCUR THROUGHOUT THE WINE MAKING PROCESS AND EVEN AFTER THE WINE HAS BEEN BOTTLED. 


TO BE CONTINUED


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## joeswine

*Wine faults continued*

OXIDATION.


THIS IS A REAL TIME PROBLEM,IF YOU FOLLOW OTHER THREADS YOU'LL SEE TIME AND TIME AGAIN THE SAME PROBLEMATIC QUESTIONS,THAT'S THE NATURE OF THIS CRAFT AND FOR NEW WINES MAKERS IT CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND WHY AND HOW TO STAY AS CLEAN AND TIGHT TO THE PROCESS AS POSSIBLE FOR WHAT WE DEAL WITH FOR THE MOST PART IS RAW PRODUCT ,WEATHER ITS IN A BUCKET ,VACUUMED SEAL BAG,FRUIT OR GRAPES,AND WHAT EVER ELSE YOU CHOSE TO FERMENT,OXIDATION IS A REAL TIME PROBLEM.

PHENOLS PRESENT IN THE WINE ARE THOSE EASILY OXIDIZED WHICH LEADS TO,THE LOSE OF ;

FLAVOR,COLOR AND AROMA

APART FROM PHENOLIC OXIDATION ,THE ETHANOL PRESENT WITHIN THE WINE CAN ALSO BE OXIDIZED INTO OTHER COMPOUNDS RESPONSIBLE FOR FLAVOR AND AROMA TAINTS. 


THIS IS A VERY BIG HITTER ON OUR LIST  TO BE CONTINUED


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## joeswine

*Oxidation*

THE OVER EXPOSURE OF THE JUICE TO THE ATMOSPHERE, IMPROPER RACKING TECHQICS AND OVER USE OF POORLY FITTING BUNGS AND NOT KEEPING AND EYE ON EMPTYING AIR LOCKS ALL LEAD TO OXIDATION,THE PROCESS OF RACKING SHOULD BE AS SWIFT AS POSSIBLE WITH LITTLE OR NOT AIR CONTACT,AT HOME THIS IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE,I KNOW,WHEN BOTTLING HAVING EVERY ITEM TO BE USED AT HAND AND IN ITS PLACE, BE AS SYSTEMATIC AND AS STREAMLINED AS POSSIBLE,SO THAT GOOD BOTTLING METHOD CAN TAKE PLACE,YOU MUST HAVE THE TOOLS ON HAND AND A GRASP OF THE WINE MAKING PROCESS EVENIF YOU HAVE TO RUN THROUGH A SIMULATION TO GET YOUR COMPONENTS ALL IN PLACE,NOT BEING PREPARED IS NOT A GOOD THING,IN THIS CRAFT.::



NEXT CORK TAINT..............


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## joeswine

*Cork taint*

Cork taint is a wine fault mostly attributed to the compound trichloranisle, also known as TCA, although other compounds such as guaiacol and others are also thought to be involved .. Most likely originates as a metabolic or mold growth with the chlorine bleach wine corks and barrels. Because his earthly, molding, and musty aromas in the wine that easily master natural flavor aromas, making the wind very unappealing. Winds in the state are often described as corked. A court painter has gained a wide reputation as a wine fault , other faults are often mistakenly attributed. 
Okay, , here we go , now very few of us use chlorine bleach anywhere around our product , as has been discussed here and on other threads on this forum do not use chlorine bleach unless you absolutely know how , and that is still not recommended. So how does cork taint start well as stated above . There are many theories one of my pet theories is this as the court is designed so especially the corks We use . I think sometimes it has to do with the waivers of the bottles and quality of the water that we are using . Sometimes the sediment in the water itself has a high chlorine content , do you rinse your corks,. How about your carboys . You sanitize them first let them drain and then using once again go back to the quality water that reusing . The corks themselves , when they are manufactured, especially the ones we use have microscopic grooves in them depending on the manufacturer sometimes and sanitation methods is up to speed , away around this if you know you are going to do a bottle of 30 , take out 30 corks place the a bowl dust them kmet, now you protect them and your wine .

Go back and read cleaning , sanitation and sterilization . These are the forerunners of this problem , . Anything your hands touches in the winemaking order mouth or any part of you  should be thoroughly sanitized............ Cork taint is a real problem.. At one time or another we have all been faced with .............. Stay tuned coming up next *lightning strikes* ............


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## joeswine

*Rememberring the difference*

DO YOU REMEMBER THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN K MET AND SORBATE ?


HOW ABOUT HOW OXYGEN EFFECTS WINE AND HOW TO AVOID?????

DID YOU READ THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SANITATION,CLEANING AND STERILIZATION?


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## joeswine

*lactic acid bacteria*

 LACTIC ACID BACTERIA HAVE A USEFUL ROLE IN WINE MAKING CONVERTING MALIC ACID INTO LACTIC ACID IN MALOLACTIC FERMENTATION.HOWEVER AFTER THIS FUNCTION HAS COMPLETED THE BACTERIA MAY STILL BE PRESENT WITHIN THE WINE,WHERE THEY CAN METABOLISE OTHER COMPOUNDS AND PRODUCE WINE FAULTS.WINES THAT HAVE NOT UNDERGONE MLF MAY BE CONTAMINATE WITH LACTIC ACID BACTERIA, LEADING TO REFERNMENTATION AO THE WINE WITH ITBECOMING TURBID,.SWAMPY,AND SLIGHTLY EFFERVESCENTOR FIZZY.THIS CAN BE AVOIDED BY STERILE FILTERING WINE DIRECTLY BEFORE BOTTLING.LACTIC ACID BACTERIA CAN ALO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER WINE FAULTS SUCH AS ,BITTERNESS .\\\


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## Pumpkinman

Great post, very informative!!!


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## joeswine

*Pumpkinman*

THANK YOU, THERE IS A GREAT MANY EXPERIENCES I LIKE TO SHARE, NOT JUST MINE , BUT MY FELLOW WINEMAKERS THAT I HAVE BEEN PRIVILEGED TO KNOW THROUGH THE GOOD AND THE BAD ..

I ENJOY THE WRITING AND HOPE THAT SOME OF YOU WILL ENJOY THE READING AND WALK AWAY WITH MY EXPERIENCES AS AN AMATEUR ONE MAKER ,. I MADE EVERY MISTAKE IN THE BOOK AND REWROTE SOME OF THE PAGES ,, I HOPE YOU FIND SOME OF THIS HELPFUL PLEASE KEEP ON READING YOURS JP .


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## joeswine

*Bugs in the wine*


Have you ever thought about that? What do bugs add to the wine? 


Have you ever heard about ladybug taint some insects present in the grapes at harvest inevitably end up in the press and for the most part are inoffensive. Others, , notably types of ladybugs or ladybirds , also known as Asian lady beetles release unpleasant volatile compounds as a defense mechanism when disturbed . If sufficient quantities these can affect the wines bouquet and taste. They are noticeably detectable the principal active compounds that are present are rancid peanut butter , bitterherbaceous, green bell pepper , or cat urine.. This is also naturally occurring compounds and sauvignongrapes so ladybug taint has been known to make Rieslings taste like sauvignon blanc

* so much for bugs.*


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## joeswine

*Detecting wine faults*

ACETALDEHYDE-------SMELL OF ROASTED NUTS OR DRIED OUT STRAW.


AMYL-ACETATE------SMELL OF FAKE CANDY BANANA FLAVORING.


BRETTANOMYCE----------SMELL OF BARNYARDS, FECAL AND GAMEY HORSE AROMAS.

THESE ARE FOR REAL.............HAVE YOU NOTICED THEM??????????????????


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## joeswine

*wine defects and faults*

 go back and reread these effects on your wine and the conditions that can cause them ,usually it stems from pour sanitation or handling of the product,before ,during and after the process,it takes very little effort to get 
information and put it to work .plan what your going to make think about the process,have the correct tools at hand ,know when to apply the chems,or not,start with sanitation and work froward,a wine maker without a plan is headed for a problem,especially if your using fresh fruit or grapes or fresh juice....plan your work and work your plan..


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## joeswine

*Oxidation*

LETS GO OVER THIS ONE MORE TIME

 THE OXIDATION OF WINE IS PERHAPS THE MOST COMMON OF WINE FAULTS,AS THE PRESENCE OF OXYGEN AND A CATALYST ARE THE ONLY REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PROCESS TO OCCUR.OXIDATION CAN OCCUR THROUGH OUT THE WINE MAKING PROCESS,AND EVEN AFTER THE WINE HAS BEEN BOTTLED.PHENOL PRESENT IN WINE ARE THOSE MOST EASILY OXIDISED,WHICH LEADS TO LOST OF COLOR,FLAVOR AND AROMA,SOMETIMES WE REFER TO IT AS A WINE THAT IS FLATT.THERE ARE ETHANOL PRESENT WITHIN WINE CAN ALSO BE OXIDISED INTO OTHER COMPOUNDS RESPONSIBLE FOR FLAVOR AND AROMA TAINTS.


THE HANDLING OF THE WINE MAKING PROCESS IS A VERY CRITICAL STEP AS IS ALL AND CONTRIBUTE TO A GREAT DEAL OF DEFECTS AND FAULTS... 

KEEP REVIEWING THE PROCESS UNTIL IT BECOMES SECOND NATURE ..


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## joeswine

*Air locks?*

BY NOW ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE MADE FRESH JUICE FROM CALIFORNIA OR ITALY,OR EVEN THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE KIT BOND,WE ALL HAVE A LOT IN COMMON FIRST AND FOREMOST WE ALL USE SOME TYPE OF VESSEL TO STORE OR PREPARE IT IN,SECONDLY WE ALL ARE USING AIR LOCKS OF SOME TYPE,AND THIRDLY WE ALL USE SOME SORT OF A BUNG OR STOPPER TO HOLE IT IN PLACE.

THERE'S WERE YOU NEED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO: ASK YOUR SELF HOW ONE IS THE STOPPER? DID I SANITIZE IT PRIOR TO USE?AND IS IT STILL FITTING THE CARBOY PROPERLY,TO MANT TIMES WE TEND TO USE STOPPER THAT HAVE LIVED OUT THEIR USEFULNESS AND DON'T REALIZE THE CONSEQUENCES OF OUR ACTION,A POOR FITTING STOPPER IS A OXIDATION PROBLEM JUST WAITING TO OCCURS AND YOU THOUGH IT FIT? WENT THEY GET TO OLD THEY NO LONGER SEAL PROPERLY YOU SHOULD REPLACE THEM EVERY FEW YEARS THE EXPANSION IN THE ORIFICE WERE THE AIR LOCK ALSO STRETCHES OUT OF SHAPE AND BEFORE YOU KNOW IT THE AIR LOCK IS 3/4 OF THE WAY DOWN,NOT GOOD,SANATIZE YOUR ARE LOCKS ALSO IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG TO PREPARE ,TRY USING GLYCERIN TO FILL THEM WITH IT LAST A LOT LONGER THEN WATER ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE MANY OTHER ITEMS TO PAY ATTENTION TO OR YOUR GOING AWAY FOR A WHILE,ANOTHER SOURCE OF OXIDATION WHEN THE RUN DRY,REMEMBER .OXIDATION IS YOUR BIGGEST EMENY WINE WINE MAKING BE PROACTIVE AND TAKE THE TIME TO SET UP FOR THE LONG TERM AGING PROCESS OR JUST THE PROPER PROCESS IN GENERAL.


IN THIS ART FORM PAYING ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS MAKES A GREAT OVERALL DIFFERENCE IN THE OUTCOME.. FOR A LOT OF US JANUARY AND FEBRUARY WILL BE BUSY IN WINE WORKS,RACKING AND SUCH,TAKE THE TIME TO THINK OUT YOUR PLAN,DON'T OVER HANDLE.....


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## joeswine

*The process*

 ALWAYS,KEEP IN THE FRONT OF YOUR MIND THE PROCESS AND THE STEPS IT TAKES TO GET TO THE FINAL PRODUCT.PLAN YOUR WORK AND WORK YOUR PLAN,HAVE YOUR TOOL BOX READY AND UP DATED WITH FRESH SUPPLIES AS NEEDED ,THE ONE THING YOU DON'T WANT IS TO BE CAUGHT SHORT OF SOME ITEM SHORT ON A SUNDAY AND NO WAY TO STOP AND NO WAY TO GO.  REMEMBER AND RECORD, DATA FOR THE NEXT TIME,FRESH YEAST IS BETTER THAN DEAD YEAST 

PLAN YOUR WORK AND WORK YOUR PLAN


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## joeswine

*Wonderfull world of yeast*

THE LITTLE MICROBE'S THAT COULD

COMING TO A CARBOY NEAR YOU SOON


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## joeswine

*Yeast in the beginning*





THE ROLE OF YEAST AND WINE MAKING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT THAT DISTINGUISHES WINE FROM GRAPES JUICE .IN THE ABSENCE OF OXYGEN YEAST IS CONVERTS THE SUGARS OF THE WINE GRAPES INTO ALCOHOL AND CARBON DIOXIDE THROUGH THE PROCESS OF FERMENTATION. THE MORE SUGARS IN THE GRAPES. THE HIGHER THE POTENTIAL ALCOHOL LEVEL OF THE WINE IF THE WIND YEAST ARE ALLOWED TO CARRY OUT FERMENTATION TO DRYNESS. SOMETIMES WINEMAKERS. FERMENTATION EARLY IN ORDER TO LEAVE SOME RESIDUAL SUGARS AND SWEETENERS IS AND THE WINDS , SUCH AS WITH DESSERT WINES. THIS CAN BE ACHIEVED BY DROPPING FERMENTATION TEMPERATURES TO THE POINT WHERE YEAST ARE INACTIVE STERILIZED FILTERING THE WINE TO REMOVE THE YEAST OR FORTIFICATION WITH BRANDY TO KILL OFF THE YEAST CELLS. IF FERMENTATION IS UNINTENTIONALLY STOPPED , SUCH AS WHEN THE YEAST BECOME EXHAUSTED OF AVAILABLE NUTRIENTS, AND THE WINE HAS NOT YET REACHED DRYNESS. THIS IS CONSIDERED A STOCK FERMENTATION . WELL, HOW MANY TIMES IS THAT COME UP ON THIS FORM QUITE A FEW I SUPPOSE BUT WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN IN OUR TERMS WELL KNOWING HOW TO USE A HYDROMETER IN DETERMINING WHAT THE POTENTIAL ALCOHOL IS AND THE JUICE , WINE WERE GOING TO MAKE KNOWING HOW TO USE NUTRIENTS DESPITE THE GROWTH IN TEMPERATURE AND HOW IT CONTRIBUTES TO THE OVERALL PERFORMANCE OF THE YEAST SOUNDS LIKE. SCIENCE DOES NOT? AND IT IS FOURTH OUT KNOWING THE CHARACTERIZATIONS OF THE WINE YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WE ARE AT AND THIS MY FRIEND COMES FROM TIME LISTENING AND LEARNING AND HAVING THE RIGHT TOOLS IN YOUR TOOLBOX. 

YOU SKIP AROUND A LITTLE BIT, WAS JUMP AHEAD, LET US TALK ABOUT TO MANUFACTURERS OF YEAST THAT I USE,LAVLIN AND REDSTAR................. AM SURE EVERYONE HAS HAD THEIR HANDS ON ONE OF THESE LITTLE PACKETS. WERE DO YOU KEEP YOURS ?

IF YOU LOOK IN THE BACK OF THE PACKAGE . A RED STAR WILL FIND IT RECOMMENDS THAT YOU KEEP REFRIGERATED . LIKEWISE LALVIN ................. F YOU LOOK AT THE PACKAGE. IT WILL ALSO HAVE AN EXPIRATION DATE. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ,TO BOTH TELL YOU HOW TO DISSOLVE THE YEAST AND WATER (WARM WATER AT HUNDRED 9° )LET IT SET START TO REHYDRATE AND THEN USE IN A LOT OF CASES KIT WINE MAKING MANUFACTURERS WILL TELL YOU TO JUST SPRINKLE IT ON TOP . EITHER WAY, IT WILL WORK . IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR PREFERENCE. SO FOR NOW I AM GOING TO LEAVE YOU WITH THIS DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KMET AND SORBATE AND I ASK YOU TO PRINT OUT THE EXPLANATION OF EACH AND POST IT IN YOUR WORK AREA SO THAT YOU CAN REFER TO IT HAVE A GLANCE : LAVIN WEBSITE AND RED STAR PRINT OUT THEIR PROFILES . KEEP THAT IN YOUR FOLDER. ALSO FOR DIFFERENT YEAST CONTRIBUTE DIFFERENT FACTORS TWO DIFFERENT STYLES OF WINE , RED AND WHITE. SO BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER WE GIVE YOU CHANCE FOR YOU NUBIANS TO GO ONLINE PRINT OUT A COPY OF RED STAR YEAST PROFILES AND LAVIN'S YEAST PROFILES THEN WE CAN START TALKING ABOUT YEAST .................


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## Morgan

Joe, subscribing finally to this thread. Read the whole thing and can't tell you how much I appreciate all the knowledge and philosophy you're contributing! Carry on Sir!


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## joeswine

*Review the start of yeast*

REVIEW THE START OF YEAST.........


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## joeswine

*Yeast the little microb that could*

 THE ROLE OF YEAST IN WINEMAKERS THE MOS T IMPORTANT ELEMENT THAT DISTINGUISHES WINE FROM GRAPE JUICE. 

OK WE GOT IT! THERE ARE WILD YEASY AND CULTURED YEAST THATS WERE THIS CONVERSATION IS AND JUST TO LET YOU KNOW THIS IS JUST MY THOUGHTS. DO YOU REMEMBER WAY BACK WHEN i TALK ABOUT THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A WINE AND HOW THE BUILDING BLOCKS FORMED THE FLAVOR AROMA AND TEXTURE OF THE WINE.OTHER THAN GOING BACK TO THE SOIL,WATER AND EARTH ,WILL START AT CHARACTERISTICS,AND HOW THE YEAST PLAYS A VITAL ROLE AND THAT KNOW THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE WINE YOUR GOING TO PRODUCE IS VITAL.

chardonnay grape is very neutral,with many of the flavors commonly associated with the grape being derived from such influences as earth and oak.it is vinified in many different styles ,from the lean,crisply mineral wines of CHABLIS,,WITH OAK AND TROPICAL FRUIT FLAVOR.

OK,now we got the taste and flavor profile,now what............we think! you got to like that.

 look at our charts,you remember them?
( ask yourself first how do i want the wine to finish out?) ok,lets say dry with oaky background early drinking,take a look at ICV-D-47..what are the properties of the yeast?----------low foaming,quick fermentation that settles out well,forms compact lees at the end of fermentation.tolerates a good range of fermentation temps,from 59 to 68 degrees and enhances mouth feel due to complex carbohydrates.malolactic fermentation proceeds well in wine made with this strain of yeast.
A GOOD CHOICE IT FITS 

 RED STAR.depending on your style Chardonnay..........COTES DES BLANCS,PREMIER CUVEE ARE THE BEST CHOICES..........................


COTES Des blancs ,excellent general purpose yeast for whit wines low foaming,good temp ranges and adv production.

PREMIER CUVEE..same characteristics as above but also good for stuck fermentation, 
ALWAYS ASK YOURSELF FIRST WHAT STYLE WINE I'M I GOING TO MAKE BEFORE YOU PICK A YEAST THIS IS YOUR MAIN BUILDING BLOCK. this will dictate your focal point and your choice, (KNOW THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE WINE YOU ARE MAKING)

STAY TUNED............


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## joeswine

*lavin bdx*

 The French say, this is the perfect answer it has a perfect fermentation kinetics at a moderate rate and temperature 64 to 86° and does not generate a lot of heat during fermentation .is highly recommended for the production of quality dry reds with alcohol toxicities at 16% , especially Merlot and Cabernet Sauvignon ,with a minimum color loss and enhance flavor and aroma. 

 Remember we talk back that partnerships of wine how wines go well together so does the yeast it plays in all important role in The full development of the wine.. If in the beginning wine has to have body structure . It also has to have a format to develop it and this is where these comes in . N lalvin bdx is not as well-known to most of us home winemakers , but is something you should look into , especially if you like dry full-bodied red wines . 

Merry Christmas to allyou, happy new year


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## joeswine

*Yeast in the beginning*

 Okay, let us get started for all you beginners out there remember. I asked you to go red star and pulled on their use profile also Lalvin.

]
 Let us get started , let say you want to make a citrus fruit wine . . If you look at the red star profile you will find at the Pasteur Champagne yeast is the best, lalvin, 1116 fits the best profile you want to read about these profiles . Believe me . I think you should take the time , to go online as you are now pull down to profiles that is your determining point . let us just take the 1116 for example the strain expresses the freshness of white grape varieties , such as sauvignon Blanc, chenin blanc and others . the natural fresh fruit aromas are retained longer than with other standard yeast strains fruit wines and wines made from concentrates for a nutrient balance benefit from the capacity of 1116 to adapt to difficult conditions . Highly recommended for dry wines age reds and late harvest wines restart stuck fermentation . . Okay, now you are armed, this is the beginning how to think outside the box Noah characteristics you want to make and know how to start Othe Jew read the fruit wine part that is the key. Y


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## joeswine

*Yeast advanced winemaking*

 lalvin, bm45,. This drain was selective for many world-class brunello's, fermentations for its ecological characteristics. I relatively slow starter, well adapted to long maceration programs 64 /82 degree temperature range .and has high nitrogen requirements and can produce H2 h2s nutrient – starved .provides high levels ofpolysaccharides and therefore wines with increased mouth feel. It tends to bring out aromas in sangioveses described as for Jams , Rose and cherry liquors, with evident and clear notes of sweet spices, licorice and Cedar. It also is used in minimizing vegetal characteristics and can be used which are today is a blending component to increase mouth feel . With a 16% alcohol toxicity ceiling, it reliably ferments to dryness . 

R

 So you see, when we talk about mouth feel and talk about body structure. He comes down to the basics. The original product you started with the yeast that you apply to a bring out . It is better qualities. These characteristics that you strive for, it takes understanding in time when you get your kids or your buyer juice or you by your grapes stop and think what is it you want to achieve at the end, what qualities you want your wine and are you doing willing to do a little research to justify the means. It comes from understanding all the componentry that we work with at cellar dwellers............. there are whole world of different yeasts out there, investigate them. Do not just settle for someone for what someone wants to sell you...................... got it!


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## Pumpkinman

Joe, how ironic, we were just having a discussion about yeasts, I cannot agree more, take the time to inform yourself about yeasts, do the research. Lalvins website is real good, just Google the yeast that you are interested in and you will get a bunch of links.

*Nice post Joe!!!*


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## joeswine

*Pumpkin man*






There is more than out there . There will were being served you just have to know what you want, and find but you have to take the time to deal with it........................ Ay time you want to swap. Let me know.


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## Pumpkinman

Joe, I'd be happy to trade with you! Right now, the only wines that are ready to drink are the Dragon Blood, the Berry Blend Melomel aka Red Dragon, The Hard Cider is just about ready, and I have to resist the urge to drink the Amarone for another 8 months..lol
We are close enough that a bottle should get to you in 1 day.


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## joeswine

*pumpkinman*

Not a problem at all,email me with your address and I will sent of to you something different,when ever you get around to it ,you get around to it..


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## Pumpkinman

Joe, perfect! This is very kind of you.
I'll send you my info as soon as I get back to my office.
Thanks!


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## joeswine

*ok..............*

OK got it.//////////////////


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## joeswine

*yeast cont.......................*

YEAST CONT..................


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## joeswine

*Yeast the little microbe that could*

 I am starting my port wine kit and took a( EC – 1118) the usual suspects of chemicals , especially the yeast lalvin EC – 1118. This is the most common type of yeast kit manufacturers are supportive of because of its natural characteristics.. It makes a lot of sense. They are not sure of what temperature you are going to be fermenting they are sure of the wine alcohol content. You should have as force projection goes . Assuming you follow all steps correctly in addition to that. It has good properties for most wines. 

 Some good reiterate just what they are , . This is been around forever is a low foamer, excellent for the barrel fermentation 
.or for working on heavy suspended particle.. .Is one of the most popular wine yeast in the world.. very well at low temperature. a A produces very compact lees... It is good for champagne Basie.,. Secondary. Fermentation's,Restarting stock fermentations,. and for late harvest grapes. . It is also the yeast every one should have in their Refrigerator.. .Has an alcohol toxicity 18%. a A ferments very fast.. .It tolerates temperature ranges from 39-95.. d Degrees Fahrenheit., but not good for malolactic fermentation.. So you see ., it has every common denominator, going for it.., and that is why it is the most widely use... So let us get started......................


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## joeswine

*Yeast the little micro that could*

 Want to make a Cabernet, Merlot or Shiraz ,. This could be your yeast.


 lalvin D 21 -. This string was isolated in 1999 for fermenting red wines with stable color , intense mouth feel and need -palate tannin structure , and a fresher aftertaste. and retains higher acidity, inhibiting development cooked jam and burning – alcohol sensations is highly matured and concentrated Cabernets , Merlot and syrah. it Iroduces very few sulfur compounds 
..allows the expression of fruit from the grapes while reducing the potential the potential for Cerberus characteristics in the Cabernet Sauvignon . When blended with wine is fermented with ICV – D254 and ICV – DAV , why is fermented with IPC – the 21 brain fresher , Deep Throat and continuous intense sensations beginning in the form outand carry through to the aftertaste is almost as desirable a strain for white wines. As for Reds, is a moderately fast fermenter with a temperature range of 64 – 96° , andand alcohol tolerance to. 

 IvC – D 21,is an excellent yeast for most of your major red wine categories ............. I know it sounds good to me , fit all the right spots, meets all the right criteria . This is a yeast. You should keep .
.if you will notice in our travels we have come across two very good yeast among the hundreds that are out there EC . 1118 and D 21 these are winners , you do not have to keep a lot need to keep the right ones .


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## joeswine

*Yeast the little microb that could*

SO TELL ME SO FAR HAVE YOU SEEN THE DIFFERENCES IN THE YEAST TYPES AND THE BENEFIT OF A LITTLE TIME IN RESEARCHING OUT THE BEST FOR YOUR PARTICULAR NEEDS?PLANNING IS ALWAYS THE KEY ELEMENT IN WINE MAKING AND KNOWING WHAT YOUR PARTICULAR WINE STYLE REQUIRES(,ATTRIBUTES ) TO BE AT ITS CHARISTIC BEST.


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## joeswine

*Okay were back//red star yeast*

We talk a lot about lalvin as a major yeast provider ,but there's also another player known as 

RED STAR

This is another company that has been around a long, long time . And if you went onto the website them a wonderful chart that you can use .......................... so Set's take a look at it now
remember my making you always have to do some research that comes in the planning mode we cellar dwellers was planning . So for example take a look at red stars profiles . 
* cotes des blancs*, it's excellent for dry whites and non-dry whites is very good for light berries and orchard fruits . It has a moderate fermentation speed and it's tolerance to alcohol is moderate . th T is a good example. The yeast 
that is good for most qualifications . 

*Pasture red,now the characteristics of this yeast for different so do the planning comes , . It's excellent for young Reds and aged Reds it's good dark berries it has a moderate fermentation speed , and a good alcohol tolerance .*. Take a look at the chart and you'll see the strength and weakness of. This yeast there the figure needs ? S

* Premier cuvee*, great for dry whites excellent for nouveau ,good for champagne overstocks fermentation can be used for late harvest has a fast fermentation speed, and is very alcohol tolerance.  think about!
 *Montrachet, now this one is very strong in all categories. Can you see that? But it doesn't fit the bill for citrus fruits do see that? Also, Ford non-dry whites, blushes, young Reds champagne light berries orchard fruits so good although it is a fast fermenter and the tolerance levels very well. It does complement dark berries and botanicals as well as helping out with the fermentation to a certain extent............ this one. I don't feel strongly about. We think?*



* Pasture champagne, excellent for champagne progress with this is originally cultivated for, great with light berries, which are fruits citrus amounts so this is really a decent for East is an excellent secondary fermentation . It also helps that fermentation it's great for late harvest grapes. It's fermentation speed is fast and alcohol tolerance is very good........... Tis one's a keeper** and should be in your repertoire of yeast.. Don't you think? *

*  So you see at all the planning stages winemaking you have to think out. What you're doing or in other words plan your work and work your plan. know What wine types have better attributes with a particular yeast , make a chart plan for every descent on the chart to the next stage , not everything will go correctly but lease you'll be on the correct path and you know if you went to the left or the right , planning and questioning are two key ingredients in this hobby. We call winemaking . *


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## joeswine

*Wonderfull world of yeast*

 SO YOU SEE HOW IMPORTANT KNOWING FIRST WHAT YOU WANT TO MAKE AND THEN MATCHING IT UP WITH THE CORRECT YEAST TYPE,SO THAT YOUR WINE CAN REACH IT'S FULL POTENTIAL. IT'S ALL IN THE PLANNING.....PLAN YOUR WORK THEN WORK YOUR PLAN.


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## joeswine

*Going back to the future*

WE ARE GOING TO REVIEW WINE FAULTS AND DEFECTS,WHAT MAKES THEM OCCUR AND HOW THEY CAN BE AVOIDED.........WE ALL HAVE FACED THESE ELEMENTS IN THE PAST .......LETS USE KNOWLEDGE TO PREVENT THEM IN THE FUTURE............


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## hocke230

Wish one of you guys were in LA and could help me w/ backsweetning. I still dont feel all that comfortable with that.


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## joeswine

*Back sweetening*

 It's a process that's not all time at our level, there are other avenues to pursue in keeping this residual sweetness and check and not having to add it back to it that's a process that you have to be very chemically trained to do and have a lot of time to do it, so if some of us do and I don't make it a practice is that we ferment out to dry, at our chemicals, make sure that we have is still wine, and then back sweetened with sugar, simple syrup is what I use, don't be afraid of it if you don't understand just ask any one of many people on this website will guide you through it, I should also state that you should have good taste buds in doing this because you can over sweeten a wine if you're not careful and if you're not sure what you're doing you could start refer mentation again. Like I said any one of a number of people can walk you through it from making simple syrup to applying the simple syrup in the back swinging process, that's with this hobby is all about experimentation, at least this thread helps you to think outside the box, have you read any of it? Stay tuned because I'm going to start on one of these threads one faults and defects..................... this should interest you........ JP


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## joeswine

*Fortifying wines*

 What is a fortified wine? Well, simply put, it is wine with an added distilling beverage, usually ranging fortified wine is distinguished from spirits made from wine in that spirits are produced by means of the distillation, while fortified wine is simply one that has had a spirit added to it. Many different styles of fortified wines have been developed, including port, sherry or Madeira, Marshals and the aromatized wine vermouth.

The original reason for fortified wine was to deserve it, since ethanol is a natural antiseptic. Even though other preservation methods now exist, fortification continues to be used because the process can add distinct flavors to the finished product.

Although grape brandy is most commonly added to produce fortified wines, the additional alcohol may also be neutral spirit that has been distilled from grapes, green, sugar beets, or sugarcane. As always regional laws apply and dictate the types of spirits that are permitted for fortification.

Okay so let's take a look at this, here I am making the coffee port. However, the kit calls for no alcohol whatsoever with the exception of one manufacturing within it night don't know what the F pack contains, but I do know that taste comes into play, and that's going to be the keystone of my coffee port, so here's what I'm going to before I even make this and I will do this. This week the bottles ready. The labels are ready. Everything is good to go. I'm going to make sure that having a good bottle of grappa on hand, I'm going to filter the main base through to a 6 gallon bucket. Remember, this is only gallon wine to that. I'm going to add the F pack and that's when my creation will start.

To the main body in the mix by taste. I'm going to start adding gradually grappa, once I have my volume where I wanted to be not only with the coffee flavor. But with the spirit addition, balance, I will leave it in the pale for one day while a blends to itself, re-tasted. If it's good to go. It's going to go quickly because I'm already to bottle, in addition I will also add a few coffee beans to each bottle. This in turn should enhance the coffee port not only with the grappa, but with additional flavor.

Fortification can be done in many ways is the most simplistic way it can also be done in small amounts to. You have your volume balance out while it's still in the carboy but at a finished state.

Stay tuned............


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## joeswine

*Madeira wine*

* Madeira* is a fortified wine made in the Madeira Islands. The wine is produced in a variety of styles ranging from dry wines, which can be consumed on their own as an aperitif, to sweet wines. More usually consumed with dessert.

* Marcelo wine* is a wine from* Sicily* that is available in both fortified and on fortified versions. It was first produced in 1772 by English merchant, John Woodhouse, as an inexpensive substitute for Sherry import, and gets its name from the islands port Marsala but fortified version is blended with Brandy to make two styles, the younger, slightly weaker fine, which is at least 70% ABV and aged at least for four months, and the superior which is at least 18%, and aged at least two years. The on fortified marsala wine is aged in wooden casks for five years or more, and reaches a strength of 18% by evaporation.

 *Sherry*, *port wine*. It has many varieties and styles including* vermouth* have been around for a long long time, a wholely different palette to work off of, interesting, inviting and a tasty expander to the palette. Try some of these aperitif's the next time you go out to your favorite local wine and spirits shop, then once you've tried one or two you'll get to understand what the palette is supposed to be looking at, and so will you*. To be continued......................*


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## joeswine

*Vermouth*

This is something very different, vermouth is a fortified wine flavored with aromatic herbs and spices using closing garden recipes. Some of the herbs and spices used may include cardamom, cinnamon, margarine, and chamomile. Some vermouth is very sweet, however, unsweetened, or dry, vermouth tends to be bitter. The person credited with the second vermouth recipe, Antonio Benedetto carpano from Turin, Italy, chose to name his concoction vermouth in 1786 because he was inspired by a German wine flavor with wood worm, a herb, most famously used in distillation of absinthe. However, this goes way back to the Romans the modern German *woodworm means both wood worm and vermouth. The herbs originally used to mask raw flavors of cheaper wines imparting a slightly medicine taste or tonic flavor.

The palette of wine making is immense and goes back hundreds of years, remember when I wrote about the Georgians there around 400 BC. That's a lot of bottles go. Stay tuned.

The talking to you soon. Thanks for hanging in there*


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## joeswine

*Dessert wines continued*



So here we are, almost at the end dessert wines, let's recap what we talked about, their natural sweetness and how to obtain, capitalization, fortification, raisin wine, the King of sweet ice wine, noble rot wine and finally we'll talk about serving.

 The general rule is that the wine should be sweeter than this one is served with – a perfectly ripe peach has been scribed as an ideal partner for many dessert wines, whereas it makes sense not to drink wine at all with mini chocolate – and coffee – based dishes. Read dessert wines like* redcioto della valpolicella *and fortified wines like the *vin doux natures* are the best matches for such difficult to pair dessert. Quite often, the wine itself can be dessert, but bakery sweets can make a good match, particularly with a little bitterness like the almond biscuits that are dunked in vin santo. A development of this matching of contrast is a rich, savory dish like the foie gras that it is a traditional part of *Sauternes*. White dessert wines are generally serve somewhat chilled but can be easily served cold. Red dessert wines are served at room temperature or slightly chilled.

 I know these wines aren't for everyone, and most men that I know shy away from, but every now and then give your mouth and your taste buds of thrill and think outside the box, take a chance and small bottle of ice wine at your local spirits shop or stroll down the lane in spirits shop and take a look at diversity that has been dessert wines, I'm sure you'll find that there's a place in your cellar for at least one bottle a great dessert one. And who knows wine season comes around or there's a kit that you spot that you say hey I like the way that one sounds you may even try one.................... dessert wines ..... A good way to end the dinner

* think outside the box*
 Next we'll explore ports one of my favorite of all dessert know they have a name unto themselves. They deride dessert.

Hope you enjoyed this, stay tuned...........


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## reefman

joeswine said:


> Stay tuned because I'm going to start on one of these threads one faults and defects..................... this should interest you........ JP


 
Joe,
Looking forward to the thread on faults and defects.


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## joeswine

*Wine defects and faults*

Good to hear from you. reefman, as home winemakers your subject to a lot of flaws in both our sanitation and the preparation in making the wine. For those of you who make fruit wines or are using fresh grapes. This becomes even more of a problem if the sanitation in the process is not handled properly. Even and especially racking and bulk aging, if the tools you're using are not up to the task which they were assigned to do then you have a problem, I'm going to try to address some of these problems. I myself and subject to some, but the more I do the wine and understated what my shortcomings are and I try to overcome those, so bear with me will go through some of the ones that hurt us the most.

A wine fault or defect is an unpleasant characteristic of a wine often resulting from poor wine making practices or storage conditions, and leading to wine spoilage. Many of the compounds that cause wine falls are already naturally present in wine but at least insufficient concentrations to adversely affect. In fact, depending on reception, these concentrations may impart positive characteristics to the wine. However, when the concentrations of these component greatly exceed the sensory, replace or obscure the flavors and aromas that the wine should be expressing. Ultimately the quality of the wine is reduced, making it less appealing and sometimes undrinkable.

Okay, let's take this for example I have a bucket of fresh juice. I bring it home and I know that it's at least a 45°, the yeast cannot start to activate at that temperature. So I let it set for a day or so and him him not paying too much attention to it, do a temperature reading and pitch my yeast. So far so good, right?

Check the specific gravity readings. Everything looks good time. The transfer from the ferment fermentation bucket to the carboy, so far so good. But I didn't have the time to sanitize the carboy. But hey, I'm in a hurry, yeah things to do so as a moving along. I pushed put this fresh batch of grape juice into a dirty carboy, not dirty as though you could see dirt and not sanitize didn't take the time to sanitize with one step or be bright, hey but that's okay I'm in the jar was empty. All they did was put the fresh juice into it. How wrong could that be? For my airlock in with water in and away go.

Every is going great. Up to this point, two weeks later I go back to the carboy. There is just right left it only know I see some white floaty things on the top and I wonder how this happened but that bong isn't sitting in the whole right it's like very loose, is that would cause the weight floaty things in the top or maybe it's because I've had about 6 inches of space or maybe more, but hey what's that got to do with it. I did put the airlock in it should are kept in the air out, shouldn't it?

There are many causes for the preparation in wine falls ranging from poor hygiene at a winery, excessive and or insufficient exposure of the wine oxygen, excessive or insufficient exposure of the wine to sulfur, overextended maceration of the wine either create or post fermentation, faulty finding, filtering and stabilization one, the use of dirty Oak barrels, or extend the barrel aging and the use of poor quality corks. Outside of the winery, other factors within the control of the retailer are and user of the wine can contribute to the reception of flaws in the wine. These include poor storage of the wine that expose it to excessive heat and temperature fluctuations as well as these of dirty stemware during wine tasting that can introduce materials aromas to what was previously a clean and full free wine.

So you see, I'm a mistake straight up,* and oxidation is a primary cause and the most common of all wine faults.*

*. Oxidation of wines. Perhaps most, common of wine faults, is the presence of oxygen and a catalyst are the only requirements for the process to occur. It is also known asmaderized *wine. From Madeira wine, which is intentionally oxidized. Oxidation can occur throughout the wine making process, and even after the wine has been bottle. Which leads to loss of color, flavor and aroma, sometimes referred to as flattening. In most cases compounds such as sulfur dioxide and other acidic compounds are added to the wine by winemakers, which protect the wine from oxidation and also buying with some of the other oxidation products reduce their affect.

It's a little scientific doesn't, but it wasn't was my fault that I let the wine sit too long, I was busy and I did put the bong and the bubbler in the bottle it just was a bad fit, how was I supposed to know? Well, as a winemaker the truth is I'm supposed to have all my tools ready in my toolbox. I'm also supposed to have a plan and know when and how to implement that plan. If I had done these things had taken my time to plan my work and work my plan and had all my tools ready. I would not have asked gallons of fresh juice with white floaty things on top and airlock the doesn't fit and two weeks worth of oxygen after fermentation flattening my wine, what to do?

We do have reasons why things go wrong and sometimes we can find the answers, but most good winemakers know how to plan the work and work your plan. Oxygen, in the role of wine making is a double-edged sword to little and there's no fermentation, too much and the wine takes on a totally different characteristic.

Faults continued.


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## joeswine

*corks stuck in a rut*

Cork taint





2,4,6-trichloroanisole


Cork taint
*Cork taint is a wine fault *mostly attributed to the compound 2,4,6-trichloroanisole (TCA), although other compounds such as guaiacol, geosmin, 2-methylisoborneol, 1-octen-3-ol, 1-octen-3-one, 2,3,4,6-tetrachloroanisole, pentachloroanisole, and 2,4,6-tribromoanisole are also thought to be involved.[7] TCA most likely originates as a metabolite of mould growth on chlorine-bleached wine corks and barrels. It causes _earthy_, _mouldy_, and _musty_ aromas in wine that easily mask the natural fruit aromas, making the wine very unappealing. Wines in this state are often described as _"corked"_. As cork taint has gained a wide reputation as a wine fault, other faults are often mistakenly attributed to it.

Okay, just between you me have you ever opened up bottle of your wine and smelled musty damp, even moldy Cork taint could be the culprit a lot of this also has to come from poor sanitation. Although there are other reasons why this can happen, sanitation is one of the biggest culprits. Sometimes, *but* rarely corks themselves can become contaminated to manufacturing, if you take a look the Cork under microscope you'll find tiny little crevices. That's where microbes hide.* Check are you store them*

Here's a little trick that you may want to try let's say you're doing a 6 gallon kit and you expect to get 30 bottles of wine take a small bowl pleasure corks in the bowl didn't eighth of a teaspoon of metabolic sulfite sprinkle the corks and makes them around in the bowl , then go ahead and use them for my new bit of sulfites will be on the corks will not hurt your wine the may protect in the long run. This is a real problem in the winemaking industry as well as with us home winemakers,* can't stress enough sanitation.*

So far we touch on oxidation, and now Cork taint these are two big hitters and our industry.

Stay tuned......................


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## joeswine

*Flaws and defects*

Detecting faults in wine tasting
The vast majority of wine faults are detected by the nose and the distinctive aromas that they give off. However, the presence of some wine faults can be detected by visual and taste perceptions. For example, premature oxidation can be noticed by the yellowing and browning of the wine's color. The sign of gas bubbles in wines that are not meant to be sparkling can be a sign of refermentation or malolactic fermentation happening in the bottle. Unusual breaks in the color of the wine could be a sign of excessive copper, iron or proteins that were not removed during fining or filtering. A wine with an unusual color for its variety or wine region could be a sign of excessive or insufficient maceration or as well as poor temperature controls during fermentation. Tactile clues of potential wine faults include the burning, acidic taste associated with volatile acidity that can make a wine seem out of balance.[1][2]
*Wine fault**Characteristics*AcetaldehydeSmell of roasted nuts or dried out straw. Commonly associated with Sherries where these aromas are considered acceptableAmyl-acetateSmell of "fake" candy banana flavoringBrettanomycesSmell of barnyards, fecal and gamey horse aromasCork taintSmell of a damp basement, wet cardboard or newspapers and mushroomsDiacetylSmell of rancid butterEthyl acetateSmell of vinegar, paint thinner and nail polish removerHydrogen sulfideSmell of rotten eggs or garlic that has gone badIodineSmell of moldy grapesLactic acid bacteriaSmell of sauerkrautMercaptansSmell of burnt rubber and/or cooked cabbageOxidationSmell of cooked fruit and walnuts. Also detectable visually by premature browning or yellowing of the wineSorbic acid plus lactic acid bacteriaSmell of crushed geranium leavesSulfur dioxideSmell of burnt matches. Can also come across as a pricking sensation in the nose.
* Try this checklist on for size tell me truthfully if you can how many of these things have you run into? And do you know why you ran into them will discuss these in detail but by all means read the list. These are some of the most active defects winemaking............. read.... Stay tuned....................*


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## joeswine

*A taint by any other name*

Geranium taint





2-ethoxy-3,5-hexadiene


Geranium taint, as the name suggests, is a flavour and aroma taint in wine reminiscent of geranium leaves. The compound responsible is _2-ethoxyhexa-3,5-diene_, which has a low sensory threshold concentration of 1 ng/L.[12] In wine it is formed during the metabolism of potassium sorbate by lactic acid bacteria. Potassium sorbate is sometimes added to wine as a preservative against yeast, however its use is generally kept to a minimum due to the possibility of the taint developing. The production of the taint begins with the conversion of sorbic acid to the alcohol _sorbinol_. The alcohol is then isomerised in the presence of acid to _3,5-hexadiene-2-ol_, which is then esterified with ethanol to form _2-ethoxy-3,5-hexadiene_.[12] As ethanol is necessary for the conversion, the geranium taint is not usually found in must. Think about it, all the odors you find in your wine that is not appealing. Can you identify with them? Has this ever happened to you? Remember the difference between cleaning your utensils and carboys and sanitizing your equipment. All this has a direct bearing on the faults and defects of your wine, planning, controlling, and organizing your workload is part of being a winemaker. And even after always thought of and done, you can still have a problem, but being aware that you can is half the battle................ defects continue.


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## joeswine

*Heat damage*

Heat or overexposure to heat can cause extreme damage to wine even cold , extreme cold can cause damage to wine , let us just take a look at the first.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_taint 
* Heat damage*

Heat damaged wines are often casually referred to as _cooked_, which suggests how heat can affect a wine. They are also known as *maderized* wine, from Madeira wine, which is intentionally exposed to heat. The ideal storage temperature for wine is generally accepted to be 13°C (55°F). Wines that are stored at temperatures greatly higher than this will experience an increased aging rate. Wines exposed to extreme temperatures will thermally expand, and may even push up between the cork and bottle and leak from the top. When opening a bottle of wine, if a trace of wine is visible along the length of the cork, the cork is partially pushed out of the bottle, or wine is visible on the top of the cork while it is still in the bottle, it has most likely been heat damaged. Heat damaged wines often become oxidized, and red wines may take on a brick color.
Even if the temperatures do not reach extremes, temperature variation alone can also damage bottled wine through oxidation. All corks allow some leakage of air (hence old wines become increasingly oxidized), and temperature fluctuations will vary the pressure differential between the inside and outside of the bottle and will act to "pump" air into the bottle at a faster rate than will occur at any temperature strictly maintained.
Reputedly, heat damage is the most widespread and common problem found in wines. It often goes unnoticed because of the prevalence of the problem, consumers don't know it's possible, and most often would just chalk the problem up to poor quality, or other factors.
* Take your time go back over the faults and see if any of this is happened to you, . I know some of those happened to me . . Take your time read , understand, ask thanks for following . L*


----------



## joeswine

*The good, the bad and ugly*

Sulfur compounds
Sulfur is used as an additive throughout the wine making process, primarily to stop oxidation as mentioned above but also as antimicrobial agent. When managed properly in wine, its presence there is often undetected, however when used recklessly it can contribute to flavor and aroma taints which are very volatile and potent. Sulfur compounds typically have low sensory thresholds.
* Sulfur dioxide*




Sulfur dioxide is a common wine additive, used for its antioxidant and preservative properties. When its use is not managed well it can be over added, with its perception in wine reminiscent of _matchsticks_, _burnt rubber_, or _mothballs_. Wines such as these are often termed _sulfitic_.
* Hydrogen sulfide*




Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) is generally thought to be a metabolic by-product of yeast fermentation in nitrogen limited environments. It is formed when yeast ferments via the sulfate reduction pathway. Fermenting wine is often supplemented with diammonium phosphate (DAP) as a nitrogen source to prevent H2S formation. The sensory threshold for hydrogen sulfide is 8-10 μg/L, with levels above this imparting a distinct _rotten egg_ aroma to the wine. Hydrogen sulfide can further react with wine compounds to form mercaptans and disulfides.
*[ Mercaptans*






ethyl mercaptan


Mercaptans (thiols) are produced in wine by the reaction of hydrogen sulfide with other wine components such as ethanol or sulfur containing amino acids, such as methionine. They can be formed if finished wine is allowed prolonged contact with the lees. This can be prevented by racking the wine. Mercaptans have a very low sensory threshold, around 1.5 µg/L,[6] with levels above causing _onion_, _rubber_, and _skunk_ type odours.
*] Dimethyl sulfide*




Dimethyl sulfide (DMS) is naturally present in most wines, probably from the breakdown of sulfur containing amino acids. Like ethyl acetate, levels of DMS below the sensory threshold can have a positive effect on flavour, contributing to _fruitiness_, _fullness_, and _complexity_. Levels above the sensory threshold of >30 µg/L in white wines and >50 µg/L for red wines, give the wine characteristics of _cooked cabbage_, _canned corn_, _asparagus_ or _truffles_. Note that dimethyl sulfide is not formed from the oxidation of mercaptans, but dimethyl disulfide is.

Sulfur in the wine is always present and if you are not careful it could be the good, the bad and the ugly, it may not show up in the beginning , or it may show up in the beginning, the things to do with sulfur problems tibial-is , and sometimes to no avail, sanitation stay with the process and vigilance are the key . I keep reading, threads of how I have rotten eggs smell and so forth and so on this is all due to sulfur by products and it's relationship with the wine/ for the good and the bad . , trying read the above try and understand was telling you to hard chemistry lesson to try and learn I know that , that is why most cases kids do not have a problem it usually deal with fresh juice and are are homemade concoctions that we end up having a problem is also a problem with fresh grapes as opposed to kit . the wine defects and faults listed above are some of the most common from heat related oxygen oxidation to Cork taint and the rest . what I would do is print out this page posted somewhere in your wine area or in a book something to go back to for refer, - you will run into these problems no doubt sooner or later- you will run into th*e good, the bad and the ugly *


----------



## Runningwolf

Good reading Joe, thanks


----------



## joeswine

Our new topic here is going to be called "Extracts, Fpacks, and Simple Syrup, Oh My!" =-)


----------



## joeswine

Zesting is the process of the removal of the color of most citrus fruits and other entities that are extracted (for their essence). We use a micro plane zester to accomplish our end. See pictures. (If you do not have a micro plane zester you can use a fine cheese grater (Your goal is to get the color off the fruit, not the pitch,which is the “white stuff” underneath the very top layer of the fruit.)
Here are some of my recipes that I use for making extracts. It takes at least 1 month to exract the essentials from the fruit,longer would always be better.



All recipes aremeasured out with one quart Ball Jar. ​ 

*Citrus Extract*:Consists of The zest of 2 limes, the zest of 2 lemons, and the zest of 2grapefruits, and the remainder is ever Kleer. 

*Coffee Extract*ill Ball jar up with roasted coffee beans (your choice), fill the balance ofthe Ball jar with Ever Kleer. 

*Cinnemon Extract*-~approx. 12 sticks per Ball jar, top up with Ever Kleer

*Lemon extract*- The Zest of 12 lemons per jar, top up withEver Kleer

*Orange extract*:The zest of approx.. 8 oranges per jar. Valenzia oranges work best but any typewill do. 

*Key Lime Extract*:1 bag of key limes with the limes cut in half. 

*Vanilla Extract*: 6Madagascar Vanilla Beans, sliced length wise. Put all 6 in a ball jar and topoff with Ever Kleer. 

At the end of one full year its best to pour the extractthrough some sort of filter (I strain mine through a coffee filter) and addsome additional zest of the same type back to it and top it off with EverKleer.


----------



## Runningwolf

That awesome Joe. I assume you just add a small amount say to a five gallon carboy?


----------



## Sacalait

I zested 12 grapefruit as you did and used a pint jar filled with ever clear. I only had to add 5cc to a 2 gallon batch of grapefruit wine to make a astonishing difference. I've also done tangerines but haven't used any yet.


----------



## joeswine

*Additions*

Wolfman, if you are going to do a 5 gallon batch, let us say you want to make an Orange Seville sangria .and I would use the zest of three oranges Valencia will be my first choice ,or any thick skinned orange at least three, then let your taste buds be your guide. Like the pics, Kate and I will do some real fun things with wine picks this year. Hope to be as informative as they are fun to do.


* Always think outside the box *


----------



## hocke230

Joe - what do you think about adding some Zest to that zinfandel batch I have going... It really needs to be spiced up a bit.


----------



## joeswine

*zinfandel*

I'll tell you what goes good with Zin,pomegranate if you could work that in some how either juice or extracted juice from fresh fruit thats ths way I would go and have gone








..... GOING OF LINE FOR A WEEK....................


----------



## joeswine

*zesting another way to go*

the addition of fruit into wine has been around since wine making began,the zest is the outer covering of the fruit in most all cases it's citrus of some sort,review the PICS AND ,,this week coming up I'll do a demo on making a espresso extract and turning that extract into a



EXPRESSO COFFEE CELLO...............


----------



## robie

joeswine said:


> the addition of fruit into wine has been around since wine making began,the zest is the outer covering of the fruit in most all cases it's citrus of some sort,review the PICS AND ,,this week coming up I'll do a demo on making a espresso extract and turning that extract into a
> 
> 
> 
> EXPRESSO COFFEE CELLO...............


Looking forward to it, Joe!!!


----------



## joeswine

*Extracts – f-pack – simple syrup*

These are the basic elements that we add to our wines . Some of the purest in our group never think of doing this and that is okay that is their way is the way they believe in nothing wrong with that ,. *However*
.there those of us. WHO do not mind experimentation. Ad that is with this next. Thread is all about. Making and adding. Aditives to our wine, and this is what. When good wines on bad was all about . .Since sake. Stay tune. Ad be ready to think outside the box,. O the six local. I my are. O which. I personally know for. I do not know any of the four. .Have not had to think outside the box............................ stay tune...........

go back and review the pictorials............................yours jp


----------



## joeswine

*How to make Simple syrup*

To make Simple Syrup By Joe and Pictures by Kate (Neviawen) 

We use Pure Can Sugar Only.

Simple syrup is a 2 to 1 blend (2 parts sugar, 1 part water)

We use ball jars as a measuring device because that is what I store it in.

So, this batch was 4-to-2 blend. (4 ball jars sugar, 2 ball jars water)
which equates to 4 full ball jars of simple syrup ready to use anytime. 

First:
Measure out sugar to water ratio. 

Next, add sugar to a large metal pot.

Now is a good time to take the ball jars and place them in the sink in a 
tray and have your lids ready and your hot mittens (cooking gloves, 
whatever you call them!)

Make a well in the center, then dump the water into the well and stir until 
blended (not disolved yet.)

Next, turn the heat up to high. Stirring frequently until you see it start 
to clear a little with a light foam on top. Once you see this, you want to 
stir it constantly. It will go from simmer to rapid boil almost instantly 
when it's ready to go. Continue to stir, being careful to NOT GET ANY ON 
YOU! It will take your skin off, it's very HOT!

With a metal spoon you should see through the simple syrup just like water, 
it will be clear. You will know you are done when this happens. (It will be 
at a hard boil when this happens.)

You should already have your ball jars clean and ready to go. I place mine 
in a tin tray in the sink and fill the tray half way up w/ water. I place a 
wide mouth funnel inside the jars and take the boiling hot simple syrup and 
CAREFULLY fill the ball jars. Use your mitten and put the lids and rings on 
the jars and tighten them up. Turn the cold water on them and allow it to 
run in the tray. The process of the water cooling down the simple syrup 
will cause a vacuum in the jars and you will hear a "POP!". This will seal 
your ball jars and by the morning they will be cool and ready for you to 
handle. This simple syrup will stay good indefinitely. 

This is how I make simple syrup. Another tool in the toolbox.


----------



## joeswine

Our last picture of the Simple Syrup Post


----------



## joeswine

*Simple syrup*

How I use it, the main purpose of simple syrup in the way I use it are twofold first in the primary adding simple syrup in a liquid format raises the specific gravity of the wine, this helps overcome some of the party kits sweetness and lack of alcohol become defined that most F pack can handle their own flavor package ,but simply lack alcohol, with the flavor you get the wine from the fermentation after all is not drink wine for. 


Simple syrup, it also you be used as a back sweetening agent, at the end of fermentation and prior to bottling the proper amount of chemicals communalization to stop re-fermentation. It can also lend a finishing touch , or smoothing effect in some circumstances. Simple syrup as I make it is a2 to 1 mix.. Go back and review how I did it. Nubees you should always have simple syrup prepared in your toolbox. I am assuming forecourts of the time always have on hand.............


----------



## joeswine

*Review*

GO BACK AND REVIEW THE SIMPLE SYURP 
PROCESS.........


----------



## thunder

I just finished a white wine kit and don't like the taste it taste like vinegar 
I did ever thing right.Should i ad zest at this stage
thanks Bob.


----------



## joeswine

*Vingar*

At that stage it's to late,what happened?


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

Joeswine, I made an apple wine before I left for deployment to Afghanistan (roughly 8.5 months ago). My wife tried a little sample of it about 2 weeks ago and said that it turned out really good but with not much of an apple taste to it. She added Old Orchard apple juice concentrate for a f-pack. No sugar has been added yet. She wants to wait til I get home. Do you think it would benefit more by adding your simple syrup recipe or grain sugar? Also, I was looking into the idea of adding some zest to it. What citrus zest would complement the apple wine the most? After figuring this out I plan to run this wine through my Buon Mini Jet Filter.I also just purchased a Vinmetrica SC-300 which I plan to test all the factors.


----------



## joeswine

*Coastal*

The base wine looks great, she added the concentrate this in it's own self should have given the apple wine a flavor boost, let's go backward for a moment and review what your making ,in my oppion APPLE WINE, is a flavor unto it's self, nothing but the sweet to tart taste of APPLES.GOT IT!.....with that in mind lets move forward, the color looks great, but you stated not much on flavor ,we added the concentrate ,that's the first step, let it set for a week and then we can proceed down the wine trail don't go any farther at this op-pion,would like to work with you on this one, if that's OK........


----------



## Runningwolf

Joe sorry to bust in here but coastal did send me a message and something I forgot. I found one thing that really enhances the apple is a few cinnamon sticks (30 days). I even add a few cloves per 5 gallons. CAUTION  Anymore than this and you'll taste it. It's to enhance the backend taste. No one should be able to identify the taste, but you'll know it is there.


----------



## robie

Runningwolf said:


> Joe sorry to bust in here but coastal did send me a message and something I forgot. I found one thing that really enhances the apple is a few cinnamon sticks (30 days). I even add a few cloves per 5 gallons. CAUTION  Anymore than this and you'll taste it. It's to enhance the backend taste. No one should be able to identify the taste, but you'll know it is there.



That's really clever!


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

Sounds great joeswine. The concentrate has been in there for roughy 2 weeks now.


----------



## geek

Runningwolf said:


> Joe sorry to bust in here but coastal did send me a message and something I forgot. I found one thing that really enhances the apple is a few cinnamon sticks (30 days). I even add a few cloves per 5 gallons. CAUTION  Anymore than this and you'll taste it. It's to enhance the backend taste. No one should be able to identify the taste, but you'll know it is there.



And I was just wondering if anyone has used cinnamon sticks when wine is in the carboy....only for fruit wines? what about regular grape juice wine?


----------



## joeswine

*Apple wine*

THERE are any number of items to enhance the apple taste, but I think I would want to know if after adding the concentrate- I had a good , deep apple taste ,then the question at this point is after adding the concentrate how do I stand on the APPLE TASTE. then go back to the thread in which I showed all the extracts in the round and pick almost any of them,......................first acquire the flavor....


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

joeswine said:


> THERE are any number of items to enhance the apple taste, but I think I would want to know if after adding the concentrate- I had a good , deep apple taste ,then the question at this point is after adding the concentrate how do I stand on the APPLE TASTE. then go back to the thread in which I showed all the extracts in the round and pick almost any of them,......................first acquire the flavor....



Joeswine, My wife is going to taste it tonight and let me know how it is. I am still not home yet (but im very close to being) I have to rely on her response for this. If the apple taste still isn't strong enough would you recommend adding another can of apple concentrate? Also, after getting the apple taste right on the mark, I am thinking about adding 2 cinnamon sticks to it like runningwolf recommended. In your opinion, for apple wine, would adding cinnamon sticks or one of those extracts work better? Also, when my wife tasted it the firs time, she added a little sugar to her glass and found that, with it back sweetened it tastes a great deal better. When should I back sweeten it and should I use grain sugar or your simple syrup?


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

The wife tried the wine last night and said it has become more bitter... and still no apple flavor... She used an acid titration kit and found the acid to be high and she lowered it to the correct level.. and now it is bitter..how can I get rid of the bitterness?


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

Here is a picture of the glass


----------



## joeswine

*Bubbles?*

DO I SEE BUBBLES?


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

Joeswine, I asked her if it had a bubbly taste or fizzy taste and she said no. She thinks its where she dumped it into the glass. She added K meta and Sorbate before she added the concentrate into the wine. She said she hasn't noticed any movement in the airlock, no bubbles coming through that. Do you think the fermentation restated after adding that?


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

Joeswine, what do you think could be the issue of the bitterness? Imbalance of sugars to acids? Adding calcium carbonate after fermentation? re-fermentation?


----------



## joeswine

*apple wine*

tell her to take a SG READING ,to be sure and continue with the base as we talked about on the PM.


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

She took an S.G. reading and it is dry. She pulled a sample, added sugar to it. The sugar removed the bitterness. She came up with a reading of 1.025. And she said it was really good. She stated that she could start to taste the apple in the wine. She bought a can of concentrate just in case. She is going to add it when she gets home. and let it sit until I get home.


----------



## CoastalEmpireWine

Here are the pictures. The wine glass had no bubbles in it this time. And the other picture is the meter my wife bought for my coming home present.


----------



## joeswine

*Nice pics*

all's well at present ,stay the course as per/pm


----------



## joeswine

*zesting in review*

Reviewing zesting


----------



## joeswine

*Extras at a glance*

EXTRACTS IN REVIEW


----------



## joeswine

*Extracts in review*

Extracts in review


----------



## joeswine

*Extracts in review*

working with extracts can be rewarding


----------



## joeswine

*Vineland NJ Amateur Wine Competition Aug 10 2013*

Vineland NJ is holding their annual Amateur Wine Competition to be held in the city of Vineland, NJ. 
It's free to enter, just send in 3 bottles. 
I am attaching the form for everyone to download.
Instructions are on the form.
I wont be entering as I will be helping orchestrate it, so now all of you have a chance to win!!








Cheers!
Joeswine 

View attachment 2013 wine competition entry form.pdf


----------



## joeswine

*party wine kits*

PARTY WINE KITS ARE FUN AND UNIQUE IN FLAVOR PACKAGE ,JUST BY BEING PREPARED AND READ THE PROCESS YOU CAN CREATE A FUN WINE OR party wine.


----------



## joeswine

*daiquiri*

when all's said and done ............


----------



## joeswine

Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warmwater and stir it up until dissolved 

Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primarybucket

See the “musk” left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water.You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!

Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, thentake your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 

Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We areusing Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oaktannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build upthe mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in theprocess.)

Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast canbreath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you havesmall children be careful, children and buckets of liquid do not mix. I've put the lid on loosely so that the kids leave it alone. The lid had a bung hole so it was still able to breath)


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

Third day of,SGs at 1.02.... And dropping FAST close to FPAC TIME..................SAY TOONED


Note; Ambient is at 68 during fermentation


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

Here we are in day five point of the Muscat wine, at the five-day point we went totally dry, now we're going to tweak this a little bit before I put the F pack in , going to add a half a pound of Sunmaid Golden Raisins, this will add more texture and structure I must be very careful because I'm doing this in a open faced container the raisins will rehydrate= the alcohol in wine start to extract the sugars from the raisins= this will cause a secondary fermentation, once again, because I'm doing this in open faced I must stay on top of it usually I do this in a glass carboy once this phase is done and should only take about 3 to 5 days then we will add chemicals /we will clear / in another five days ,racket and add the F pack.


----------



## joeswine

Now that we are done our primary fermentation and ourMoscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: Thisreading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right wherewe need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.

Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? Weare going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6gallon carboy. 

Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet ofpotassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets ofsorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a goodstir. 

Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is notnecessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..

As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’tget funky. 

Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit isto check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply moreSuper Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clearthen it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and theF-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this(with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*Now we wait*

 LET'S DISCUSS WHAT HAS TRANSPIRE


----------



## LoneStarLori

This is looking really good. I can't wait to get home tomorrow and fish out my raisins in the Mezza Luna white and start clearing. I picked up some Super Kleer in Houston so I am ready to go.


----------



## joeswine

*Mezza luna white*






 SOUNDS like a plan Lori, you should always have superkleer in your tool box it's an essential for a wine maker, stay the course.


----------



## joeswine

*mezza luna white*



 


 WHILE your watching lori's process and she's adding the raisins in the secondary it goes hand and hand with the building and the structure of the wine ,with each manufactures step we construct this sauce and then we add our touch, not that they were wrong it's just OUR TOUCH, it makes it yours, your trademark as it were, when this Muscat is finished it will have great legs and a caricatures to be believed as well as that unmistakable MUSCATO flavor.


----------



## joeswine

*MUSCATO in review*

MUSCAT IN REVIEW..................


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

The process continues.............the very last picture on this thread shows what is left of sediment in the bottle as is being cleaned b brite, sanitation is always paramount in winemaking never forget that everything you touch everything that comes in contact with the wine including quality of the water needs to be as clean as possible including yourself. Stay tuned disorder, with the Moscato, we will be clearing it,, adding the chemicals, adding the F pack and then let it settle out.. Moscato is one of my favor white wines, to be done so many fashion stated course not quite done yet.


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

The process continues.............


----------



## LoneStarLori

What is the black tube in the last picture? Is that the gas?


----------



## joeswine

*cleaning up*

That is actually a hose coming out my sink I have an adapter for my pressure bottle washer to a hose I fill all my bottles going to wash via the hose then rinse them ,I added an oxygen generator it set overnight or when they clear then dumped back into the sink my process.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Ok,, now I'm really confused. Are you washing a full carboy?


----------



## joeswine

*a washing we will go*

 YES, that mud see is sediment from the bottom of a carboy depending on the amount of solids in a juice and what you use to clear with that's the end result, MUD.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Oh..l got it.. I thought it was the wine. Now it makes sense. lol


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato moving forward*

Still a ways to go with before moving the Moscato, so let's review................................................................................


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

MUSCAT CONTINUED.......... THIS IS A COMBINED EFFORT WITH DATA AND TEXT//KATIE AND JOE..............................


----------



## joeswine

So while we are waiting for the Moscato, I figured I would re-visit what this thread was originally intended for. 
*“When Good Wines Gone Bad” was developed with the intent tohelp the average winemaker with defects in his or her wine. It sounds easy butnot always so. I’m inviting you to come with us and take a step back in time, togo over some of the wines I have in my possession. Some of them have lost their flavor but havegood alcohol, while some of them have good flavor but not clear. We’re going togo over and make corrections to these wines in written and pictorial format sothat you can see how to correct these problems. We will discuss what tools youneed in your toolbox and determining if the wine is correctable. Sometimes youjust have to say, “Not my quality of wine!” and trash it!*


*So stay with Kate and I,and you will see firsthand what you can and cannot do to make “A Good Wine That’s Gone Bad”.*


----------



## LoneStarLori

Yay! I'm looking forward to this. It will probably save my hours of trying to figure things out on my own and hopefully let me find trouble before it gets out of hand. Thanks Joe and Kate!

Lori


----------



## joeswine

THE WINE ABOVE IS A NATIVE AMERICAN GRAPE CALLED VIGNOLES,THE TERM FOXY WOULD BEST DESCRIBE IT, I have done this wine a few times before and each time it was successful but this time I was in a hurry why I don't know but I was in a hurry and that's a mistake for winemaker. So I went through the usual bottling process and I filtered this wine, illustrate process it was correct in every manner ,so I bottled it, labeled it, put it on the shelf proud of myself. Them one day bout a month later I decided to take some to dinner and to my amazement there is a real slight sediment In the bottle, not good! 

The next available opportunity I uncorked all bottles and sanitized this way could save the labels I then took the wine and place it in a 3 gallon carboy plus 1 gallon jug , and put them both in my bottom of my refrigerator there I let them cold soak for a month so that it would precipitate out any tartaric crystals and any other unnecessary elements in the wine , the next step will be to bring this wine up to room temperature, then I'll be able to racket and bottle it , it's not uncommon for white wines of this nature to have a lot of pectin enzymes in their content and sometimes you can see this with the naked eye, even though you done the correct process , sometimes it just happens , so don't be alarmed if it happens to you there other ways of clearing a wine a cold soak is one of them, using pectin enzyme is another using finding agents such as super clear and others . so follow us as we reassemble the wine, sorry the pictures got a little messed up but you'll be able to follow it better next time.my BETTER HALF TASTED THE FINISH PRODUCT AND STATED IT WASN'T BITTER AT ALL BUT, DRY LIKE A CHARDONNAY ,SO AT THIS POINT WELL JUST RE BOTTLE ,repair completed.

VIGNOLE CLOUDY WINE ,_after the cold soak it is very clear and ready for re bottling, but wait it's a little bitter Ph is at 3.2,maybe I'll back sweeten we'll see, stay toned._


----------



## sdelli

Here is a picture of my Moscato.... 5 weeks old and taste great! Cleared up nicely per WE directions....


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato reviewed*

LETS REVIEW BEFORE WE MOVE ON. THS WINE SHOULD FINSH QUIT SMOOTH AND FRUITFUL.


----------



## geek

hey joe, post pics of what the wine looks like now in the carboy...


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato part 2*

MUSCATO PART 2 NOW WERE RAEDY FOR BOTTLING


----------



## geek

joe,

based on the pics where you're removing the raisins from secondary it looks like you ferment in secondary using that big plastic bucket, not a carboy....then once secondary is over you transfer to glass carboy; correct?


----------



## joeswine

*Raisin tran fer*

 THAT'S CORRECT ,BECAUSE I WAS ALREADY IN A OPEN VAT AND IT WAS A BETTER WAY TO DEMONSTRATE THE *WINE/RAISIN* *EFFECT* AND SHOW HOW TO-USE A STRAINER TO REMOVE THEM, MUCH BETTER FOR SHOW AND TELL ALL AROUND.


----------



## zalai

Hello Joe , 
Did you use tannin for the Muscato or just raisins ? If you did how much tannin . 
Thank you,


----------



## bkisel

Why are the raisins taken out? Left in would they somehow mess up racking to the carboy?

Thanks...


----------



## bkisel

At what SG were the raisins put into the bucket?

Thanks...


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

 No, I did not put any tannins in the wine as of yet this kit comes complete with an Fpac, so before I add anything else to the kit I want to see what the finished product is like, then if I feel it should require a little more body I might, thanks for the question and thanks for following (*when good wines go on bad).*
*.*


----------



## joeswine

*muscato moving forward*

*NEXT STEP*,_add chems ,add fpac and clear this is what it looks like ,it should clear with in 48 hrs. _


----------



## joeswine

*Process forward*

PROCESS MOVING FORWARD.. ADDED FPAC AND RE-FINE WITH SUPERKLEER SHOULD CLEAR WITHIN 48 HRS,READY TO BOTTLE.


----------



## jamesngalveston

joe , dont take offense, but is that a trolling motor i see in that one pic are an air compressor..you need to build a wine making room.....wish i was close to you..i would built it for you.


----------



## joeswine

That's not an air compressor or a trolling motor.. It's a back-flow system for my house water supply. LOL
And oh, by the way, as for a winemaking room, thank you for the offer but I'm happy using my basement. My house is 3,400 sq. ft. and this is the whole basement of the house. You only see bits and pieces of it in the photos I post. No offense taken!
Cheers!
Joe


----------



## LoneStarLori

I'm betting Joe has 2700 sq ft of wine down there too.


----------



## Tess

I have a wine making corner lol


----------



## joeswine

*My space*

SLIT LY OFF TOPIC. THEN WILL RETUN INE MAKING.


----------



## LoneStarLori

That is one awesome basement! Complete with a tasting room and everything. Joe you must live down there 95% of your waking hours. I know I would. 
We don't have basements down here so all I have it my kitchen and one of the spare bedrooms for storing all my tools and carboys. I feel so under privileged.


----------



## sdelli

Very nice Joe!


----------



## bkisel

"Look! It's moving. It's sha — it's... it's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving, it's alive! It's alive, it's alive, it's alive! It's ALIVE!" 

Nice basement setup.


----------



## joeswine

*muscato forward*

the process continued.. next time out will be filtering and adding the chems. ready for bottling


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

PART 2..............


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato moving forward*




*REVIEW THE PROCESS NEXT WEEK WE BOTTLE*.


----------



## beggarsu

I'm making the coffee port - this is day 7. 

Maybe someone covered this.. the instruction say 10-14 days in the primary and I'm using a wine making primary - maybe it's 10 gal though I never used it full with a lid lots of headspace for this one. 

SO don't I run the risk of oxidization by letting it stay in there longer than 7 days (which is the usual instruction and in fact RJ Spagnols old instruction?

Or is that not a real concern for only 10-14 days?


Maybe I should transfer it to an airlock system today?


----------



## joeswine

*beggarus*

QUESTION,YOUR MAKING THE CRU, coffee port right?

QUESTION,WHAT IS YOUR SG ,NOW?

QUESTION,DESCRIBE FOR ME ,WHAT TYPE OF FERMENTER YOUR USING? 
I HAVE MADE THIS KIT TWICE.


----------



## beggarsu

joeswine said:


> QUESTION,YOUR MAKING THE CRU, coffee port right?
> 
> QUESTION,WHAT IS YOUR SG ,NOW?
> 
> QUESTION,DESCRIBE FOR ME ,WHAT TYPE OF FERMENTER YOUR USING?
> I HAVE MADE THIS KIT TWICE.


1. yes

2 Doesn't matter my question is for regardless of SG. That's not answering the q of the danger of oxidization.

For this batch for any batch. Regardless of whether there is fermentation in any batch I've ever made - they are not visibly active after 7 days which sort of indicates put in airlock as whatever is going on it's not enough to push out enough co2 to stop air oxidization - in any batch.

The spagnols 14 day thingee is new instructions and they have it for all their kits. It doesn't make sense to me at all the fermentation after day 7 in 5 kits so far is minute or small even though it may be ongoing - it seems that should be finished in a airlock carboy.. 


3. - a 10-12 gal wine primary fermenter bought form my wine making store - plastic with lid lots of headspace with only 12 l in it. 

4 so if you made this kit twice how long did you leave it in an open non-airlock primary if at all?


Bonus answer:

Never heard of Zesting. 

...
Took the S.G. 
The S.G.'s at what someone else did their racking to secondary for Coffee Port. But thinking this out - I think that's not the point. I think the only hydrometer needed here is the eye. 
If the liquid is visibly still or relatively inactive then I think it's airlock time. There is no more significant outgoing gas to keep the oxygen away - the airlock can handle any future gas escape and protect the wine 
it just seems foolish to leave it in a huge open airspace at that point..


----------



## joeswine

*Variables*

THE SG is the controlling factor, every wine I have made has been in a open vat, just like a real winery, weather it's fresh fruit,juices or kitS ,that's the way I do it, I have learned to control the process and not let the process control me, you asked me a question I gave you my answer. FOLLOW the process of the coffee port on this thread and the AMAROME as well as the moscato and caramel Port and SANGIOVESEyou will see how it's done.........................................


----------



## beggarsu

joeswine said:


> you asked me a question I gave you my answer.



I don't see your answer anywhere. My question was will the wine oxidize in an open primary regardless of S.G. after it stops visibly frothing. 
I answered your questions but why? - you didn't follow up. Why did you ask me about what kind of primary I had?

The S.G. is not oxidization. It doesn't measure oxidization rate.
Knowing a number in a mechanical way is not understanding the process of oxidization.

Yes, I know - you measure the S.G and when it reaches and stays at a certain point you transfer the wine. It works and that's it.
But I actually want to actually understand the mechanics of oxidization, and the details - oxidization rate for wines in different states, in different exposure surfaces so I can know for all circumstances.

As that all may be it just may be that it takes a lot longer to oxidize in an open primary and therefore there is no danger regardless whither it has stopped fermenting at day 7 or not. It sounds that way as your narrative of using open vats - in that case the S.G. is not a factor.

-----
Edit 
This:


> After the primary fermentation, in which large amounts of protective carbon dioxide gas (CO2) are produced, you must take precautions to minimize exposure of wine to air.
> 
> http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb0719/eb0719.html


 'primary fermentation' ie the desired S.G. is not yet achieved -Anyway I put my nose in the bucket today Day 9 - wow !- there is obviously still a wall of CO2 so I let it go on though I could transfer it but It's going to 3 different jugs ((4.5l X 2) + 3 l)) so there is no point in bothering right now and disturbing the ferment as a unit which is obviously ongoing and probably the S.G will go down another littlel bit.. 

---

I have worked out an answer as in my previous post. 
Thanks anyway.


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato moving forward*

* although,* it's been a while since we started this project we've done a lot in wine time behind the scene's as you can tell if you follow us..........2 weeks we bottle this wine, my thoughts at present is this.


* WE* have tasted it even though it's very young, it lacks character as well as ,not a true* moscato* taste so what to do, I think I'm going to put the zest of 1 grape fruit in and 1 orange, this then should pick up the brightness in the finis as well as give it a hint of sunshine as I remember a good _MUSCATO_ has,bright,crisp and tasty.so follow us and we will help resurrect this kit and make it a wonderful wine to address at anytime.
​Here’s the process*:
*Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!
​Here’s the process*:
*Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato cont.*

MUSCATO PART 2.................PATIENTS.. IN 2 WEEKS WE WILL BOTTLE AFTER INFUSION OF GRAPEFRUIT AND ORANGE ZEST..SOUND TASTY?


----------



## Vpilieci

Can I ask.... I've always found my wines to be a bit thin. I usually make a Cab./Sauv. (55 litres). Is there something I could add to add to mouthfeel after primary fermentation has completed?


----------



## joeswine

*Cab and texture*

YES,THERE ARE ITEMS THAT WHEN APPLIED CAN PRODUCE A GOOD MOUTH FEEL AS WELL AS TASTE ,WITH THE CABS,YOU SHOULD FIRST ADD A FPAC OF HAND PRESSED GRAPES WE WILL BE DOING ONE ON THIS THREAD SHORTLY SO YOU CAN RE- VIEW FIRST HAND THE PROCESS,SECONDLY ADDING OAK IN BOTH WOOD AND TANNINS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN BOTH THE PRIMARY AS WELL AS THE SECONDARY WE'LL ALSO SHOW THIS AS WELL,SO STAY WITH THIS US AND FOLLOW ALL THE THREADS ,AT PRESENT YOU CAN REVIEW THE SANGIOVESE THREAD AND SEE THE PROCESS..OK


----------



## LoneStarLori

I just finished my Sangiovese using the raisin and tannin tweak and it is awesome! Perfectly balanced and great body.


----------



## eblasmn9

LoneStarLori said:


> I just finished my Sangiovese using the raisin and tannin tweak and it is awesome! Perfectly balanced and great body.


This is good to hear. I bought this sangiovese kit and plan to do Joeswine's tweaks on it January 1 of next year. Looking forward to it!


----------



## Vpilieci

joeswine said:


> YES,THERE ARE ITEMS THAT WHEN APPLIED CAN PRODUCE A GOOD MOUTH FEEL AS WELL AS TASTE ,WITH THE CABS,YOU SHOULD FIRST ADD A FPAC OF HAND PRESSED GRAPES WE WILL BE DOING ONE ON THIS THREAD SHORTLY SO YOU CAN RE- VIEW FIRST HAND THE PROCESS,SECONDLY ADDING OAK IN BOTH WOOD AND TANNINS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN BOTH THE PRIMARY AS WELL AS THE SECONDARY WE'LL ALSO SHOW THIS AS WELL,SO STAY WITH THIS US AND FOLLOW ALL THE THREADS ,AT PRESENT YOU CAN REVIEW THE SANGIOVESE THREAD AND SEE THE PROCESS..OK




So, wait ... you are saying I should add the oak chips to primary? Can I leave them in for 6 months???


----------



## sdelli

I would be carefull leaving chips in for too long... They will break down and deteriate quicker then a spiral... I tend to only use them in the primary... Then go to spirals.


----------



## Vpilieci

how long should they be in primary?? I am using juice, not making this from a kit.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Each of the kits I have done say to add wood to the primary, then rack off when going to the secondary. But I have used new chips or cubes in the secondary. For my Sangiovese I used Med toast Hungarian oak cubes in the secondary and the chips they provided with the kit for the primary.


----------



## joeswine

*A story about wood*

*Effects on wine*



 


The effect of oak aging on red wine color: the above samples are both Penedès region Cabernet Sauvignon varietals; on the left, a two-year-old _cosecha_; on the right a six-year-old _crianza_. As the wine matures, its color shifts from deep purple or crimson to a lighter brick-red and takes on a more graduated appearance in the glass.


The porous nature of an oak barrel allows some levels of evaporation and oxygenation to occur in wine but typically not at levels that would cause oxidation or spoilage of the wine. In a year, the typical 59-gallon (225-liter) barrel can lose anywhere from 5½ to 6½ gallons (21 to 25 liters) of wine through the course of evaporation. This evaporation (of mostly alcohol and water) allows the wine to concentrate its flavor and aroma compounds. Small amounts of oxygen are allowed to pass through the barrel and act as a softening agent upon the tannins of the wine.[3]
The chemical properties of oak itself can have a profound effect on the wine. Phenols within the wood interact with the wine to produce vanilla type flavors and can give the impression of tea notes or sweetness. The degree of "toast" on the barrel can also impart different properties affecting the tannin levels of the wine as well as the aggressive wood flavors.[5] The hydrolyzable tannins present in wood, known as ellagitannins, are derived from lignin structures in the wood. They help protect the wine from oxidation and reduction.[6]


 


Oak barrel aging sherry. It has a transparent front for people to see the process inside


Wines can be barrel fermented in oak or they can be placed in oak after fermentation for a period of aging or maturation. Wine that is matured in oak receives more of the oak flavors and properties than wine that is fermented in oak. This is because yeast cells interact with and "latch on" to the oak components. When the dead yeast cells are removed from the wine as lees, some of these oak properties go with them.[7] A characteristic of white wines that are fermented in oak include a pale color with an extra silky texture. White wines that are fermented in steel and then matured in oak will have a darker coloring due to the heavy phenolic compounds that are still present.[8] Flavor notes that are common descriptions of wines exposed to oak include caramel, cream, smoke, spice and vanilla. Chardonnay is a variety that has very distinct flavor profiles when fermented in oak that include coconut, cinnamon and cloves notes. The "toastiness" of the barrel can bring out varying degrees of mocha and toffee notes in red wine.[9]
The length of time that a wine spends in the barrel is dependent on the varietal and style of wine that the winemaker wishes to make. The majority of oak flavoring is imparted in the first few months that the wine is in contact with oak but a longer term exposure can affect the wine through the light aeration that the barrel allows which helps to precipitate the phenolic compounds and quickens the aging process of the wine.[8] New World Pinot noir may spend less than a year in oak. Premium Cabernet Sauvignon may spend two years. The very tannic Nebbiolo grape may spend four or more years in oak. High end Rioja producers will sometimes age their wines up to ten years in American oak to get a desired earthy cedar and herbal character.[7]
*OAK CAN BE A PARTNERSHIP WHEN INCORPORATED IN THE PROPER MANOR WITH THE WINE PROCESS AND CAN CHANGE THE ENTIRE PROFILE OF A WINES TASTE IF NOT APPLIED PROPERLY ,BUT IT IS TO EACH WINE MAKERS TASTE THAT THE OAK CAN BE STRENGTHEN OR BE MADE SUTTLE .THERE ARE MANY FORMS THAT IT CAN COME IN AS WELL AS TEXTURES AND TOASTYNESS AND LIQUID AND CAN BE INSTALLED AT ANY PART OF THE PROCESS . THE USE OF OAK IS PROFILE ELEMENT AS WELL AS A TASTE ENHANCER*


----------



## sdelli

Joe,
Just a thought for more conversation.... Effects of wood on wine... Tannins... Which ones... When and how much.
I am in the process of adding Tannin EX and spirals now....


----------



## joeswine

*wood in the wine*

_THE_ question is _,WHEN_ and _HOW MUCH_,the answer is simple in wine making process, *IN THE BEGINNING*, in the primary or at least that's how we are taught to do it,* right*?

*BUT *that's not always correct, if you view oak as I do as direct additive or a (seasoning in the sauce), then it ceases to be only in the primary. OAK is and have always been added or the wine has been stored in wood, but that's not to say we can't add it at any other time.

EXAMPLE:I HAVE TWO BATCHES OF CHARDONNAY,_one is process in wood after primary fermentation,the other has it's primary in stainless steel_, both are the same base wine, one with wood and one with out, now take the two and blend them as one blend what did you do you added a_ Chardonnay_ with oak to a_ Chardonnay_ with out, the balance is outstanding when do like this ,*FRANCES FORD COPPOLA* _CHARDONNAYS_ are done in this manor,and they are delightfully full, or another example : I made a_ Cabernet Sauvignon_ and in the primary I added 16 oz.. of oak chips, allowing for the process to move forward and after secondary, I notice the mouthfeel wasn't the profile I was looking for the taste was ok at present but the wine is still you, buy adding oak tannins at anytime in the process I know I can adjust the texture of the wine all the way up to the end,,,,,,,,,,,,,there is know time limit to the addition of oak in any format in my oppion, there has been times I have added liquid oak just prier to bottling ,it works.

*YOU need TO THINK OUTSIDE THE TRADITIONAL BOX, to put your trademark on your wine...........*


*we are home wine makers we have rules = to follow we also have the ability to= separate us from the big boys we can have more fun*


----------



## LoneStarLori

*we are home wine makers we have rules = to follow we also have the ability to= separate us from the big boys we can have more fun*[/QUOTE]


Well said Joe. And it makes it SO MUCH MORE FUN!


----------



## ZeitGeist

I have to thank Joe here for this thread. Thanks to the detail present I was able to save some very thin Cab & Malbec juice buckets. I had them in carboy on oak cubes for a year and they still weren't quite right. Added some tannin powder, let it sit for another month and that wine changed dramatically! 
Thanks Joe!
Now I have a Winexpert Trinity Red I'm developing a plan for using some of the techniques you've outlined on this thread...and of course maybe some additional thinking outside the box!


----------



## joeswine

*We are moving this forward because we plan on updating it very soon:*

*Moscato Wine:*​We have tasted it even though it's very young, it lacks character as well as ,not a true* moscato* taste so what to do, I think I'm going to put the zest of 1 grape fruit in and 1 orange, this then should pick up the brightness in the finis as well as give it a hint of sunshine as I remember a good _MUSCATO_ has,bright,crisp and tasty.so follow us and we will help resurrect this kit and make it a wonderful wine to address at anytime

.




​Here’s the process*:*

Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label.


----------



## joeswine

Here's the rest of our photos for this wine:​


----------



## joeswine

Final Picture  (I promise!)


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port a winner again*

THIS HAS PROVEN TO BE A FIRST CLASS WINE RECIPE ,CHECK IT OUT.......................


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port a winner again*

Coffee port continued ​ *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​ *The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy.  
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it.  
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port.  
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir.  
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a ​ *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​ *The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy.  
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it.  
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port.  
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir.  
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a ​ *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​ *The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy.  
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it.  
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port.  
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir.  
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a ​ *Cru Coffee Port Kit*​ *The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 

After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)


After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy.  
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it.  
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port.  
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir.  
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a


----------



## joeswine

*Adding tannins to the port*

COFFEE PORT CONTINUED


----------



## joeswine

*The bottling process*

THE BOTTLING PROCESS MANUALLY


----------



## beggarsu

I suppose that's a drying tree? But I usually have to dry 30 bottles at once after sterilize with metasulphide and then rinse with hot water in the run up to bottling. I use an old dish rack over the sink and push the bottle necks through the wires so there is no contact with the bottle lips.
..
What is that square S shaped tool? What's going on over that frying pan?

How did all those corks get so even? I guess a big floor corker?


Are u manufacturing for sales or maybe u have a steadily increasing circle of friends heh!
--
U probably got enough quality production u could sell under license or something as a small business to quality gourmet outlets but I bet the government makes it too hard to do for anyone but big players with lots of capital.


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port express*

YES,THATS A 45 BOTTLE TREE RACK,ONCE THEIR DONE DRYING THEY THEN GO INTO A DISHWASHER AFTER BEING DE LABELED AND SANITIZES. 

THAT SQUARE THING IS A SEAL HOLD DOWN TOOL,DESIGNED TO HOLD DOWN THE SEAL AND KEEP IT IN THE PROPER PLACE WILL IN THE BOILING WATER.

YES A ITALIAN FLOOR CORKER IS WHAT I USE.CONSTANT PRESSURE IS APPLIES AT ALL TIMES AND USING THE RIGHT SIZE CORKS HELPS.


KNOW I DON'T MAKE A LOT ABOUT *100 GALLONS* A YEAR ,BUT I HAVE SLOWED DOWN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS,NOT JUST MAKING AT RANDOM,BEING MORE SELECTIVE GIVES ME THE CHANCE TO MAKE A BETTER PRODUCT,IN OTHER WORDS,I TRY TO PRODUCE BETTER QUALITY *NOT*QUANTITY.


----------



## beggarsu

Thanks for the reply Joeswine




> KNOW I DON'T MAKE A LOT ABOUT 100 GALLONS A YEAR ,BUT I HAVE SLOWED DOWN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS,



So with American gallons that's about 500 bottles a year - So I think a few medium size parties, holiday get togethers and BBQ's will take care of that easily along with special occasion gift lists.

How long is the oldest wine you've kept that has maintained it's undrinkability? I'm thinking optimum I should use up mine within 14 months? Though probably I guess they could go much longer.
..
Mine are from kits and fruit wine batches from summer fruits - rhubarb, raspberry, and crabapple - nothing extra special in the bottling process just done as per homemade wines.


----------



## joeswine

*Age wines*

SOME WINES HAVE THE ABILITY TO WITHSTAND THE HAND'S OF TIME QUITE WELL AND OTHERS NOT SO,IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE RAW MATERIAL YOU STARTED WITH ,YOUR SANITATION PRACTICES COUPLED WITH UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCESS,THE OLDEST WINE I HAVE IS FROM 2004,NOT THAT GOOD AT THIS POINT FROM A TASTE PROFILE STANDARD,BUT SOME OF THE REDS ARE STILL QUITE DRINKABLE AND A FEW ARE QUITE GOOD.THE WINES IN THE MID RANGE 5 TO 6 YEARS OLD ESPECIALLY THE REDS ARE HOLDING UP VERY WELL SOME ARE PEAKING AND NEED TO BE CONSUMED ,THAT'S ME. TRADITIONALLY THE WHITES GO BEFORE THE REDS,THERE TASTE PROFILE *diminishes* AND OR THEY TEND,,TO DO HEAVY SEPERATION AS TIME GOES BY AND THAT IS THE REASON I've SLOWED DOWN ,JUST MY WIFE AND HER LADY FRIENDS ,IT'S A SLOW PURGE..


----------



## Mikeleh

Joe -

I have read this entire thread and I have to commend you on all of the hard work and how thorough you are on everything. I am going to try zesting my Pinot Grigio ( 6 gal juice ) with 2 lemons, oranges and grapefruits. 

I never thought " outside of the box ". Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike from NJ


----------



## joeswine

*Zesting pino*

YOU CAN'T LOSE ,THAT'S MY THOUGHTS AND THANKS FOR FOLLOWING................ _(MIKELEH).......................
_IT'S BEING NEW IN THIS FIELD OF WINE MAKING OR FOR THAT MATTER HAVING YEARS OF GOOD AND NOT SO GOOD HABITS,CONSISTENCY IN THE PROCESS IS ALLTHAT'S REQUIRED. ,HOWEVER IF ONE LEARNS BAD HABITS AND TAKES SHORT CUTS OR DOESN'T APPLY THE PROCESS CORRECTLY,THEN YOU HEAR THE TERM ,"WELL IT'S HOW I LIKE IT" AND THAT'S OK ,BUT WHEN YOU TAKE THOSE SAME PRINCIPLES AND YOU AND YOUR WINE MOVE OUT INTO THE WINE WORLD *(IN CONTEST*) THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE,AND SOMETIMES IT CAN HURT YOUR EGO,BUT WHAT IT SHOULD REALLY BE TELLING YOU IS THERE IS SOMETHING VERY GOOD ABOUT YOUR APPLICATION /OF THE PROCESS OR *NOT .THIS IS HOW I LOOK AT WINE MAKING,A MARRIAGE OF PROCESS, AND A CHOICE TO DIRECT THE FLAVOR OR REDIRECT THE FLAVOR TO MAKE THE OUTCOME YOURS AND AT THE SAME TIME AND THIS IS IMPORTANT,NOTEWORTHY TO YOUR PEERS AND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE WINE AND THE PROMISE BEHIND THE TASTE.*


----------



## LoneStarLori

joeswine said:


> THIS IS HOW I LOOK AT WINE MAKING,A MARRIAGE OF PROCESS, AND A CHOICE TO DIRECT THE FLAVOR OR REDIRECT THE FLAVOR TO MAKE THE OUTCOME YOURS AND AT THE SAME TIME AND THIS IS IMPORTANT,NOTEWORTHY TO YOUR PEERS AND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THE WINE AND THE PROMISE BEHIND THE TASTE.[/U][/I][/B][/FONT]



Well said Joe. Just like in marriage, you redirect your spouse to make the end result what you REALLY want. 

I got my first ALL juice bucket today! So excited.
I can't start it till after Christmas, but I'm already dreaming of raisins and tannin.


----------



## joeswine

*Lori*

what did you get?

 AND YOUR CORRECT ABOUT THE SPOUSE REDIRECTION.


----------



## LoneStarLori

My daughter went by the Winemakers Toy Store in Dallas before she came down for Christmas. I let her choose which one she wanted me to do next. , (Although she doesn't know I called George in advance and asked him to steer her toward an all juice bucket.) LOL
She got the Mosti Modale original all juice Shiraz. This one


----------



## bkisel

LoneStarLori said:


> My daughter went by the Winemakers Toy Store in Dallas before she came down for Christmas. I let her choose which one she wanted me to do next. , (Although she doesn't know I called George i advance and asked him to steer her toward a all juice bucket.) LOL
> She got the Mosti Modale original all juice Shiraz. This one



I've done one MM AJ kit, a White Zinfandel, and am happy to say that it turned out pretty good. I had read stuff about MM kits having issues with clearing but I encountered no such problem. Oh, it was on sale at my LHBS for $99.00 so I figured it was worth a try. Good luck with your kit.


----------



## joeswine

*Winexperts amarone*

I DECIDED TO MOVE THIS FORWARD FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO GOT THIS KIT FOR CHRISTMAS..LETS REVIEW THE PROCESS.

PHASE ONE: THE ADDITION OF THE RAISINS AND POWDERED TANNINS WILL COME LATER..


----------



## joeswine

*Usual suspects*

The raisins and tannins play a big role in this production ,and add that extra something in the form of body and texture watch how it plays out *ALONG WITH THE CAPITALIZATION PROCESS TO* *MAKE THIS IN MY OPPION THE TRUE KING OF THE ITALIAN BIG REDS*.


----------



## Enologo

Got mine for Christmas and I'll be watching this.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone phase 2*

amarone phase #2...........the MIX. NOTICE I'M USING A OPEN TOP FERMENTATION BUCKET THIS ALLOWS ME TO WORK FREELY AND WITH FEAR OF SPILLAGE OR BOIL OVER,IT ALSO ALLOWS ME TO ADD TO THE BUCKET AT ANY TIME WHAT EVER I WANT, SUCH AS RAISINS ,OAK CHIPS OR POWDER AT WILL AS LONG AS I HAVE A GOOD EYE ON THE SG.AND KNOWS WERE IT'S AT, I CONTROL THE FERMENTATION.


----------



## Putterrr

Joe is there a difference to the wine if you add tannin in the primary or the seondary? If so, can you give a run down of that difference and if one is better than the other.

thx


----------



## joeswine

*amarone moving forward*

PHASES #2 AND # 3.....

AT THIS POINT IS WERE WE TOOK OUT THE RAISINS AND CAPITALIZED THE WINE ,THE DEXTROSE EQUATE TO 1 AN A QUARTER BALL JARS OF VOLUMING ,I ADJUSTED IT UP TO 2 QUARTS OF SIMPLE SYRUP AND ADDED IT TO THE MIX. NOTICE IN A OPEN VAT THE RAISINS ARE EASY TO EXTRACT WITH A HAND HELD STRAINER ALSO AT THIS POINT ONCE THE EXTRACTION HAD TAKEN PLACE WE REMOVED FROM THE VAT, THE WINE ENTERED ITS GLASS PHASE.


WE'VE GOTTEN A LOT OF GREAT COMMENTS ON THIS PROCESS AND BELIEVE THAT IT CAN MAKER A GOOD WINE BETTER AND A GREAT RED POWERFUL,HAVE YOU TRIED IT YET?
...................... JANUARY 16TH 2014 
Jump to: navigation, search 


 

 ADDING PUNCH TO THE WINE............



*Chaptalization* is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape must in order to increase the alcohol content after fermentation. The technique is named after its developer, the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal.[1] This process is not intended to make the wine sweeter, but rather to provide more sugar for the yeast to ferment into alcohol.[1]
Chaptalization has generated controversy and discontent in the French wine industry due to advantages that the process is perceived to give producers in poor-climate areas. In response to violent demonstrations by protesters in 1907, the French government began regulating the amount of sugar that can be added to wine.
Chaptalization is sometimes referred to as *enrichment*, for example in the European Union wine regulations specifying the legality of the practice within EU.[2]
The legality of chaptalization varies by country, region, and even wine type. In general, it is legal in regions that produce grapes with low sugar content. Chaptalization is prohibited in Argentina, Australia, Austria, California, Italy, and South Africa. Germany prohibits the practice for making Prädikatswein. It is generally permitted in regions where grapes tend to have low sugar content, including regions in France, Germany, and the United States.






CAPITALIZATION WITH SIMPLE SYRUP





















MAKING SIMPLE SYRUP


----------



## joeswine

*Process 4*

Amarone...................the process continues

NOTICE HOW I DO EVERY THING JUST ABOUT MANUALLY,THIS IS TO SHOW THE NEW WINE MAKER HOW TO USE THE BASIC TOOLS HE OR SHE SHOULD HAVE IN THEIR TOOL BOX AND FOR THE MOST PART THEY ARE NOT EXPENSIVE TO PURCHASE,GETTING PROFICIENT WITH THE BASICS IS A GOOD AND SOUND WAY TO INCREASE YOUR SKILLS AND MENTAL PLANNING ,THAT'S THE KEY,NOT ALWAYS SPEED.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone part bottling*

BY NOW YOU HAVE FOLLOWED USE TO THIS POINT WE ARE GOING TO DO THE BOTTLING PROCESS MANUALLY FOR THIS OF YOU WHO* DO NOT *HAVE ANY OTHER MEANS SOMETIMES TRADITION WINDS OUT ........... THE FIRST FEW PICS.INVOLVE DEGASSING THE REST IS BOTTLING.


----------



## joeswine

go back and review the process


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato the queen of italian whites*

this wine has been sitting since

8/22/2013 it's time to start a rehab on this one ,it just didn't have the taste or the touch of a true muscato so to kit it up a not and add some sparkle,i'm going to add the zest of 2 grapefruit to it to boost the back end of this wine and give it some personality..


----------



## joeswine

*Adding to the mix*

adding to the mix 









 WE'LL BE MOVING THIS ONE FORWARD IN THE NEXT MONTH STAY TOONED


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

the muscato is setting getting better than it was when it was ,time in the carboy has helped ,patients is a virtue to a wine maker not always applied but understood.let me TAKE YOU BACKTO MOVE YOU FORWARD as to the latest tasting and the way we See it at present
_*started 8/22/2013*_


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato*

muscato continued to the tasting

 
Behind the Scenes​ Muscate: 
Light, Fresh, Fruity, Not too sweet, smooth and enjoyable!
THE MUSCATO IS THE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT.....READY TO BOTTLE


----------



## sdelli

Looks great Joe!


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joe, can you clarify how you didi the grapefruit zest? How was it added?

thanks Sensei


----------



## joeswine

*grapefruit zest*

*what* the *grapefruit zest* does in my thoughts it acts _first _as a_ acidified_ meaning it gives a brightness to the back end of the wine a bite if you will and also a  sparkle to the taste up front, you can put it in the secondary or after the first clearing when the wine has finished and the let it sit, it should settle to the bottom then you'll know the final phase is to be completed( *bottling).*

THIS THEN IS THE BLEND BETWEEN SCIENCE AND ART, THE REINTRODUCTION OF CRAFTING TO YOUR WINES.......................................................

AMOUNTS CAN VARY,I USE FOR A 6 GALLON BATCH =TWO TO THREE DEPENDING ON THE SIZE OF THE FRUIT,USUALLY 3


----------



## sdelli

LoneStarLori said:


> Joe, can you clarify how you didi the grapefruit zest? How was it added?
> 
> thanks Sensei




Here is a quote from one of Joe's previous post on zesting.... Hope this helps....

ZESTING and the use of





lets be clear on the how to of zest,





what is it, the essence of a produc or essecial oils,ex. Orange/lemon/grapefruit just to name a few,the extraction process isn't hard just takes time d





how to:EX. orange zest,take 8 oranges (eating oranges are best for this work,use a micro plainer,or zest grader,and only remove the colored portion of the fruit (no pith) white portion is bitter not to be used,get it,,





AGENT FOR REMOVAL OF ZEST





There are to know agents to best do this process with,first EVERKLEER and second VODKA....





IN a ball canning jar place the zest of the fruit,add to the balance of the jar either one of the two agents,I like everkleer,goes farther and stronger a better bite than the vodka,how ever if you like it milder the use the 


vodka................after a month look at the jar all should have settled to the bottom and should look a lot pailer than when you first put it in,open the jar carefully and smell the extract (first the alcohol hits you then the fruit..


now you have extract..I done this with many a fruit and its a great tool in you tool fix-it box.............


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


----------



## LoneStarLori

Yes, I have been through his threads My question was to add zest, fresh off the fruit. The above post is for making extracts I believe. 


Sent from my iPhone 5s


----------



## kryptonitewine

He responded on the other thread. Just add it to secondary. 


Jim


----------



## joeswine

*Zesting*

Lets go over the difference between using zest and making and extract.

zesting> is the removal of the colored portion of the fruit such as a orange or grapefruit,this includes all forms of citrus and other natural flavored items,using them in their straight format in a base product.


making a extract>

is the extraction of essential oils from fruit combined in most cases with some form of ACHOLO, as the extraction device mix together with the zest and left to there on devices the flavor of the fruit will enhance the ACHOLO base.

PICTURE 1: IS THE RAW ZEST CAN BE PUT DIRECTLY IN TO YOUR WINE AFTER PRIMARY.

PICTURE 2:IS THE ZEST BEING PUT INTO THE EVERKLEER TO MAKE A EXTRACTION .

PICTURE 3:TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THE COLOR OF THE EVERKLEER,NOTICE THE ZEST IS NOW ON THE BOTTOM AND HAS TURNS WHITSH IN COLOR,THE WORK OF THE ACHOLO IS DONE THE EXTRACT IS READY FOR A NEW FUNCTION,USUALLY THIS STEP IS AT LEAST 1 TO 2 MONTHS OLD AND WILL HOLD FOE A LONG TIME.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Thanks for clarifying. (Pun intended) lol

I guess you could just keep adding zest to the extract as long as you like. They put worms in Mezcal and it lasts for years.


----------



## geek

and another question for zesting: what wines are good candidates for zesting/extract?


----------



## joeswine

*Zesting in the beginning*

IT GOES BACK TO THE FUNDAMENTALS.

 FIRST:NO THE CHARASTICS OR TASTE PROFILE OF YOU WINE.THAT THEN WILL GIVE YOU DIRECTION, ON WHAT SHOULD OR COULD BE DONE TO ENHANCE THE PRODUCT OR REDIRECT IT ,BUT YOU FIRST HAVE TO DEFINE WHAT IT IS YOU HAVE....GOT IT?,


----------



## joeswine

*zesting*

go back and review the differences

 zesting does not = extracts 
 extracts =are a by product of zesting 

 go back and review..................


----------



## joeswine

*Zesting in the beginning*

zesting in the beginning...

the fun facts are you can infuse a wine make a cello or balance out a taste profile with a little time and patients, I will set for you the basics of zesting and we can go d=from there..................
All recipes are measured out with one quart Ball Jar.​*Citrus Extract*: Consists of The zest of 2 limes, the zest of 2 lemons, and the zest of 2 grapefruits, and the remainder is ever Kleer. 
*Coffee Extract*: fill Ball jar up with roasted coffee beans (your choice), fill the balance of the Ball jar with Ever Kleer. 
*Cinnemon Extract*- ~approx. 12 sticks per Ball jar, top up with Ever Kleer
*Lemon extract*- The Zest of 12 lemons per jar, top up with Ever Kleer
*Orange extract*: The zest of approx.. 8 oranges per jar. Valenzia oranges work best but any type will do. 
*Key Lime Extract*: 1 bag of key limes with the limes cut in half. 
*Vanilla Extract*: 6 Madagascar Vanilla Beans, sliced length wise. Put all 6 in a ball jar and top off with Ever Kleer. 
At the end of one full year its best to pour the extract through some sort of filter (I strain mine through a coffee filter) and add some additional zest of the same type back to it and top it off with Ever Kleer.


you notice it's just the color portion of the fruit skin that is required, also after it has settled to the bottom in about a month the flavor and color has been extracted now! this is your turn to think outside the box!
think of the possibilities, a vanilla zin, orange Melbec,etc. espresso cello need I continue????


----------



## joeswine

*the mr. coffee filter*

HERE'S A SIMPLE QUICK FIX TO FILTER A BOTTLE OF WINE IN A HURRY.....................AND GO ON YOUR WAY


----------



## vernsgal

I do my cello's that way. I have a coffee pot that the filter sits right on top .


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato front to back*

MUSCATO PROCESS WINEXPERT FRONT TO BOTTLING..............................................


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato stage 2*

MUSCATO PROCESS CONTINUED/.................


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato continued*

THE PROCESS MOVES FORWARD

THIS WAS A WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS MUSCATO,IT STARTED OUT QUITE PLAN ,THEN WITH THE ADDITION OF THE SUNMAID GOLDEN RAISINS IN THE SECONDARY THE WINE IN TIME CHANGED IT'S CHARASTICS IT BECAME SMOOTHER AND MORE OF THE MUSCATO TASTE I RECOGNIZED,NOW WITH TIME IN THE BOTTLE IT WILL BE A REAL WINNER IN MY CELLAR TRY THIS KIT ITS EASY AND REWARDING..........*ALWAYS THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX......AND KEEP IT FUN.........*

*WE ALSO FINISHED THE CARMEL PORT ADDED THE PIC.*


----------



## dangerdave

Joe, I have done two of the Muscato and used golden raisins in the secondary both times. They came out great, all around! Good choice!

I have been searching for some good bottles for my ports. Have you used the EZ cap bottles before? I have considered using them...


----------



## reefman

Joe,
I'm still a little confused on the additions. Did you use the grapefruit zest AND the raisins in the secondary?


----------



## dangerdave

I think he just used the raisins, Doug. That's what I've done, anyway.


----------



## Enologo

Any Tannin in the secondary or just the raisins??


----------



## GaDawg

*Joe, you used Sun-Maid Golden Raisins which contain Potassium Metabisulfite & Sodium Sulfite As Preservatives. Did you do anything to prepare the raisins? (ex. wash, etc) *


----------



## joeswine

*sunmaid Golden's raisins*

Golden Seedless Raisins come from Thompson Seedless grapes, the same grape that is used to make our Natural Seedless Raisins (red box). Sun-Maid Golden Raisins are dried using the preservative sulfur dioxide. This form of sulfite has been used for centuries to prevent oxidation, darkening of the fruit during the drying process. Sulfite's also help to preserve the Vitamin A and Vitamin C contents of foods..


*what* is expected here is a smooth extraction of the raisins softness and lending a mellow or more rounded mouthfeel ,and it does. *the *things I do reflect my trail and errors over a long period of time, *thinking out side the box* is the only way a good wine maker becomes better and more rounded in this craft, where as a new wine maker needs to understand the processes we us as rule ,always understand this "rules were meant to be bent not broken"..understanding the basics first- then become your own winemaker, got it!


----------



## dangerdave

I rinse my raisins real good with hot water before adding them to the wine. That's all.


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato queen of the italian whites*

a great traditional Italian white

 ADDING GOLDEN RAISINS TO HE SECONDARY GAVE THIS A VERY SMOOTH FINISH


----------



## joeswine

*Muscato queen of the italian whites*

MOVING FORWARD TO BOTTLING............


WHEN TWEAKING WINE IT IS A HARD FACT THAT YOU ARE TAKING A CHANCE,BUT IF YOU DON'T TAKE CHANCES, EVEN CALCULATED ONES YOU'LL NEVER PROGRESS...........................AGREE????????????????????

 ALSO REMEMBER THIS WINE I COLD STABILIZED IN THE REFRIGERATOR FOR 2 WEEKS TO HELP CLEAR THE HEAVY HAZE THAT THIS KEEP MANUFACTURED FOR SOME REASON,BUT NOT TO WORRY,MISSION ACCOMPLISHED,AND A NICE TASTE AS WELL.TRY THIS ONE YOU'LL LIKE IT.


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## peaches9324

very pretty finish Joe!


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## LoneStarLori

Nice picture story joe. Those labels are really nice. Where sis you find them?


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## joeswine

*Labels*

LORI,I USE DIFFERENT SOURCES,SOMETIMES THROUGH GINO PINTOS ,NOONTIME,OR GEORGES (TOY STORE) DEPENDING ON HOW I FEEL, DID YOU SEE THE VELVET CAT,THAT CAME FROM NOONTIME ,TOUCH OF GLASS CAME FROM GINO'S,IT ALL DEPENDS>>>>>>


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## joeswine

*Muscato the queen of italian whites*

...........................................................

GO BACK AND REVIEW THE MUSCATO PROCESS..


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## dangerdave

Thumbs up on the Muscato, Joe. That's how I do it. And the wine comes out with an amazing golden color. Great job!


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## joeswine

*Muscato queen of the italian whites*

go back and review the muscat process post#421


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## sdelli

Joe,
Just had to say... I purchased the WE chocolate/Orange Port a few months ago.... When I started the secondary I took one of the biggest fattest oranges I could find and peeled the zest off it.... Left it in the secondary for Three weeks..... OMG it taste sooo good! When you take a taste the orange comes forward first... Then the after taste is the chocolate left on your tongue! Gona try to let it age.... Liked it so much I just purchased another one just like it and started it today.... I also purchased a Chocolate/Raspberry Port of the same brand. As per your suggestion I am going to add a little fresh raspberry to the secondary on this one! These should make a great summer drink and I am hoping if I make enough of it I might even be able to let it age out some.... Great advise! Thanks 


Sam


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## ckvchestnut

sdelli said:


> Joe,
> Just had to say... I purchased the WE chocolate/Orange Port a few months ago.... When I started the secondary I took one of the biggest fattest oranges I could find and peeled the zest off it.... Left it in the secondary for Three weeks..... OMG it taste sooo good! When you take a taste the orange comes forward first... Then the after taste is the chocolate left on your tongue! Gona try to let it age.... Liked it so much I just purchased another one just like it and started it today.... I also purchased a Chocolate/Raspberry Port of the same brand. As per your suggestion I am going to add a little fresh raspberry to the secondary on this one! These should make a great summer drink and I am hoping if I make enough of it I might even be able to let it age out some.... Great advise! Thanks
> 
> 
> Sam




I agree! These kits are good! I'll definitely be doing more. Mine is still aging on oak. I just want to buy splits before bottling.


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## joeswine

*Muscato the queen of italian whites*

REVIEW THE PROCESS FRONT TO BOTTLING.


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## joeswine

*Muscato front to back*

MUSCATO THE QUEEN OF ITALIAN WHITES
Here’s the process*:
*Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!


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## joeswine

*Muscato stage 2*

TIME TO RACK AND BOTTLE 

 AT THE FINISH THIS WINE HAS ALL THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A SMOOTH AFTER DINNER WINE LONG ON FLAVOR AND FULL BODY ...............................................YOURS JP


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## GaDawg

"Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy"
Joe, do you mean argon?


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## joeswine

*Adding gas*

I'VE USED DRY NITROGEN SINCE I CAN REMEMBER AND I ALSO USE IT IN MY TRADE SO I ALWAYS HAVE IT AROUND,NO DOWNSIDE......................


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## LoneStarLori

Oh those are so pretty! That has been resting for a LONG time. You started that in August? It must be very drinkable by now.


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## ckvchestnut

Wow! Love those labels!! Fantastic!


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## beggarsu

Regarding the poll, what is a zest? How it is it used and when? I have for instance a 6 Gal Skeeter Pee at day 7 in the Primary and 4 oranges in the fridge - can I make a zest with the oranges, how? 
Will it have an effect on taste of 6 gallons of Skeeter Pee? 


thanks

EDIT:

--
I'm guessing a zest is you slice up say an orange complete with peel and then add juice from orange and peels in small pieces to must?????

So how many per... say 6 gallon batch - is anything else done or added to make the Zest?


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## Boatboy24

Zest is the colored part of the skin - the most outer layer. It is usually loaded with flavor and lets you impart a ton of the fruit's flavor without adding liquid/acid in the form of juice.


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## joeswine

*Zesting in the beginning*

Boatboy is on the money.....

ADDING ZEST TO YOUR PEE! ISN'T ANY DIFFERENT THEN ADDING IT TO YOUR WINE IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE AND AT WHAT TIME YOUR ADDING IT.....WHAT YOU SEE IN THE PICS. IS ZEST TURNED INTO EXTRACT,THAT IS ANOTHER FORMAT TO USE,BUT FOR YOU USE A RASP OR FINE GRATER AND ONLY REMOVE THE THIN COLORED AREA OF THE FRUIT WHICH EVER FRUIT YOU USE,IF YOUR ADDING IT TO A WINE BASE* ALWAYS REMEMBER THE TASTING NOTES*, BEFORE ADDING SO THAT THE WINE AND THE ZEST COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER AND DON'T CONFLICT........UNDERSTAND?.........


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## wildvines

Now what is in the mason jars with zest?


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## LoneStarLori

wildvines said:


> Now what is in the mason jars with zest?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making



Simple syrup. You can also use ever clear or vodka. 

*ZESTING*


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## wildvines

So just add the infused syrup into the must?


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## joeswine

*Muscato in review*

THE QUEEN OF ITALIAN WHITES A WINE THAT CAN AND DOES TAKE ON ANY PROFILE YOU CHOSE TO MAKE IT FROM DRY TO OFF DRY TO DESERT SWEET TO CAMPAIGN IT'S THAT DEVERSIFIED.FOLLOW THE PROCESS AND SEE WHAT I MEAN.......................................
White Moscato​ Here’s the process*:
*Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!

IN HIND SIGHT I SHOULD HAVE STARTED THIS KIT AT A SG OF 1.10 THE FPAC SOMEWHAT OVERPOWERED THE WINES ACHOLO BUT CREATED A EXCELLENT DESERT WINE,REMEMBER I STATED HOW MANY HATS THIS GRAPE HAS.....AT 1.08 SWEET WINE...


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## joeswine

*Muscato enter the mix*

NOW WE MIX IN THE SECONDARY.............ONCE AGAIN MY BASE WINE IS COMPLETED AND I'M ADDING A EXTRACT COMPONENT TO THE MIX FOR BODY AND TEXTURE,THIS WORKS FOR ME REMEMBER YOUR OUTCOME CAN BE DIFFERENT ARE YOU PREPARED TO *THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX?*

* BOTTLING PHASE IS TO COME..........*


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## joeswine

*Muscato queen of the whites*

IT'S BOTTLING TIME IN REVIEW..


I'M SURE YOU HAVE NOTICED MY FRIEND KITO IN THE PICS WITH ME , HE MAKES WINE (HIS OWN) DOWN HERE WITH KATE AND I,OK WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS BOTTLING THE WHITES / NOTICE EVERYTHING IS MANUAL THATS TO SHOW YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THE LATEST TOOLS TO DO THE JOB ,BUT YOU NEED THE PROPER TOOLS WITH OUT THEM YOU'LL FRUSTRATE YOURSELF AND MAKE EVERY THING HARDER ,THERE'S NO NEED FOR THAT OVER TIME ,WHAT IS NEEDED CAN BE ACQUIRED.FINISHING THE WINE WITH A GOOD PACKAGE COMES WITH TIME AND A SÉANCE THAT=== THIS IS ME IN TOTAL..................


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## reefman

I've looked for the thread on making zest with simple syrup, but can't find it. Is it the same as using Everclear or vodka?


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## joeswine

*Review the process*

in the jars.................EX;
PICTURE #1 SHOWS JUST THE ZEST IN IT'S RAW FORM
PICTURE #2 SHOWS A BOTTLE OF EVERKLEER
PICTURE #3 SHOES SIMPLE SYRUP FINISHED.....................................THIS IS A BACK SWEETENER OR A CAPITALIZATION ELEMENT by process
PICTURE #4 SHOWS ZEST AND EVERKLEER COMBINED TO FORM A EXTRACT
*ZEST* CAN BE USED ALL BY ITSELF:COMBINES WITH *EVERKLEER* IT NOW BECOMES A EXRACT:ALL *THREE *CONBINED TOGETHER, ARE A BASE FOR CELLO'S


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## reefman

thanks Joe, I get it now. zest, then ever-clear or vodka, and then simple syrup.
I'm going to try my hand at a cello.


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## Boatboy24

reefman said:


> thanks Joe, I get it now. zest, then ever-clear or vodka, and then simple syrup.
> I'm going to try my hand at a cello.



I'll be doing the same soon. My sister lives in Towson and will be here next weekend, with a few bottles of Everclear in tow. Can't buy it here in Va. I'm going to follow this recipe that I've wanted to try for a while now. 

http://tvwbb.com/showthread.php?26108-Limoncello-(Lemoncello)-the-Italian-way&highlight=Limoncello


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## joeswine

*Zesting in the beginning*

IN THE BEGGINING...............
Making Extracts​ All recipes are measured out with one quart Ball Jar.​*Citrus Extract*: Consists of The zest of 2 limes, the zest of 2 lemons, and the zest of 2 grapefruits, and the remainder is ever Kleer. 
*Coffee Extract*: fill Ball jar up with roasted coffee beans (your choice), fill the balance of the Ball jar with Ever Kleer. 
*Cinnemon Extract*- ~approx. 12 sticks per Ball jar, top up with Ever Kleer
*Lemon extract*- The Zest of 12 lemons per jar, top up with Ever Kleer
*Orange extract*: The zest of approx.. 8 oranges per jar. Valenzia oranges work best but any type will do. 
*Key Lime Extract*: 1 bag of key limes with the limes cut in half. 
*Vanilla Extract*: 6 Madagascar Vanilla Beans, sliced length wise. Put all 6 in a ball jar and top off with Ever Kleer. 
At the end of one full year its best to pour the extract through some sort of filter (I strain mine through a coffee filter) and add some additional zest of the same type back to it and top it off with Ever Kleer.
* Making Simple Syrup​*Basic mix consists of : 2 qt. ball jars of cane sugar to 1 qt. ball jar of water. 
*Process:
*Place measured out sugar into a metal pot. Add the water to the mix (It’s a 2 to 1 ratio-mix). Bring the mixture to a boil, constantly stirring from the beginning of the process to the end until the liquid is clear. Have the ball jars already sanitized and ready for filling. Bring the simple syrup TO the jar and and funnel it into them (make sure your funnel is clean, too!) to fill them up. It will be hot so be very careful. Place the lids and metal rings onto the jars to seal them.
*Note*_: we put the very hot liquid into the jars while it is hot so as it cools it creates a vacuum seal to keep the mixture good. Done this way, your simple syrup will have a very long shelf life. 
_ Zesting Made Simple​Zesting is the process of the removal of the color of most citrus fruits and other entities that are oil extracted (for their essence). We use a micro plane zester to accomplish our end. See pictures. (If you do not have a micro plane zester you can use a fine cheese grater (Your goal is to get the color off the fruit, not the pitch, which is the "white stuff" underneath the very top layer of the fruit.)
PICS. TO FOLLOW


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## joeswine

*simple syurp*

basics.......................how to............

 this is a two to one mix sugar to water............this is also a tool you should always have on hand..............


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## beggarsu

Good stuff Joe. You should be on a TV show.


Yep now I'm doing simple syrup, zests and extracts. No more store bought wine conditioner for me.


Do you get a full 3 cups for every 2 +1 or the water boil off? (or 236.5 ml * 3 = 709.5 ml)

I have to try again and be careful to stop it as soon as it's ready.
I need to do some more measuring tests and be careful of my method to get the resultant volume right, so I can be sure of the amount of sugar per volume
- 
Who knew boiling water is so difficult


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## sour_grapes

beggarsu said:


> Good stuff Joe. You should be on a TV show.
> 
> 
> Yep now I'm doing simple syrup, zests and extracts. No more store bought wine conditioner for me.
> 
> 
> Do you get a full 3 cups for every 2 +1 or the water boil off? (or 236.5 ml * 3 = 709.5 ml)
> 
> I have to try again and be careful to stop it as soon as it's ready.
> I need to do some more measuring tests and be careful of my method to get the resultant volume right, so I can be sure of the amount of sugar per volume
> -
> Who knew boiling water is so difficult



Not sure if this is pertinent or not, but.... you do realize that a cup of sugar does not contain anywhere near an actual cup of volume, right? There is lots of room between the grains; it is likely about 60% sugar and 40% air.

I don't honestly know how much the volume changes when you dissolve the sugar into water.


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## sdelli

It must take that into consideration because every recipe I have seen is always a 2 to 1 ratio by volume.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## sour_grapes

sdelli said:


> *It* must take *that* into consideration because every recipe I have seen is always a 2 to 1 ratio by volume.



Not sure what you mean; can you clarify? _What_ must take _what_ into consideration? How does the recipe indicate anything about the final volume?


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## geek

do people use that sugar syrup just in primary to increase initial SG or maybe to back sweeten?
Just wondering.

I've used plain sugar too to make DB but never made it a syrup, just poured right into fermenter, wonder if there's a difference.


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## ibglowin

Both. Making it into a syrup allows you to make a higher brix solution so you can add less and dilute your wine (and its flavor) less in the end.


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## geek

Thanks Mike.


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## beggarsu

sour_grapes said:


> Not sure if this is pertinent or not, but.... you do realize that a cup of sugar does not contain anywhere near an actual cup of volume, right? There is lots of room between the grains; it is likely about 60% sugar and 40% air.
> 
> I don't honestly know how much the volume changes when you dissolve the sugar into water.




I was sloppy before but I will be calculating that very carefully in the future - checking the ml of the final result compared to the ml of the beginning. When I back-sweeten I want a constant that I can rely on to know how much sugar has been added not volume of SS.


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## joeswine

*simple syrup*

mike is right ,4 quarts of sugar 2 quarts of water = 4 quarts of simple syrup...............usually but not always the standard kit could take 2 quarts of simple syrup to bring the sg up to 1.10,that all depends on what you sg is to start out with, go slow 1 quart at a time stir very well and let it settle down then take a reading to desired abv.

*understand this*: depending on what phase of the process your in *PRIMARY* to boost the sg and potential alcohol in the end OR finishing to* BACK SWEETEN* ,the proper chemistry is still required you can't escape the process.

simple syrup is a clean way to deliver what's desired in your process and should be a part of your tool box all the time.........................


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## joeswine

*simple syrup mix*

WORKING WITH SIMPLE SYRUP IS EASY AND CAN TAKE A SIMPLE PRODUCT AND PLACE IT ON ANOTHER LEVEL, IF USED CORRECTLY,FOLLOW THE PROCESS 4 QUARTS OF CANE SUGAR TO 2 QUARTS OF WATER THAT'S WHAT I USE AND IT WELL BALANCED...........................NET RESULT IS 4 QUARTS OF SIMPLE SYRUP ,THIS PRODUCT HANDLED CORRECTLY WILL LAST A VERY LONG TIME AND IS A TOOL YOU SHOULD HAVE IN YOUR TOOL BOX AT ALL TIMES...................WHETHER YOUR* CAPITOLIZING* OR *BACKSWEETENING *SIMPLE SYURP IS THE *KEY.*


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## joeswine

*Zesting in the beginning*

ZESTING FOR FLAVOR................. THINK OUTSIDE THEBOX FOR THAT ADDED DEMINISON TO YOUR WINE..BELOW ARE JUST SOME OF THE EXTRACTS YOU CAN MAKE AND USE IF YOU...................... THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.......................


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## dangerdave

I love the zesting and simple syrup techniques. Great information and photos' Joe.

Now, how about some advice on the application of these products in wine making.


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## joeswine

*zesting and extracts*

well Dave ,the use and extracts have been around as long as man has made alcoholic beverages, just the same way as using flowers and herbs as a additive.


lets take lone star Lori as a example with her latest adventure, she's making a white non- descriptor wine with two different yeast, I suggested to her to add grapefruit zest to one batch ,it would add lift and brightness to the wines overall taste as well as adding a slit taste of fresh fruit.

on the other hand the coffee port I made had not just the normal kit additives but instant coffee, as well as coffee bean extract Extracts can play a very tasteful role in any wine it's how you apply it and when, just like a fpac usually the fpac comes in in the third stages of the mix there is know law stating when you can add a extract, it's up to you and the taste profile your trying to achieve, 
example, adding a touch of vanilla bean too a zinfandel, or plums to a PINO NIOR, dark cherries to a Cabernet,raspberries to a Shiraz, you can almost do the same with extracts you just need to *think outside the box and be prepared to take taste chances......... *


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## dangerdave

Thank you, Joe. Great info.


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## LoneStarLori

Ok Joe, I took your advice and added some grapefruit zest to the Pinot Blanc with the Premier Cuvee yeast. I chose that batch because it has a stronger citrus note than the one with the D47. It's almost lemony. Can't wait to see what the zest does.

If anyone wants to follow the process on this split batch, you can see the entire thread here: 

*http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f84/thinking-outside-box-9155/index40.html#post510117*


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## Boatboy24

Just to confirm: You added zest in secondary, right? I'm considering using some zest with a Viognier bucket. A very small amount of orange.


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## LoneStarLori

Yes. I added it right after I transferred it to the carboy. The SG was .994. Normally I make my additions sooner, at about 1.010, but this one fermented fast and got away from me.
Since I haven't used zest before and this is only a 3 gal batch, I chose to only use 1 grapefruit. If it doesn't seem to be enough, I can add more later. My gut feeling is that it will be plenty.


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## joeswine

*zesting*

excellent move I sure when alls said and done the brightness will be there, stay the course.

 THINGS TO CONSIDER,MOST WHITE WINES ARE A BLANK CANVAS JUST WAITING FOR IDEAS TO IMPRINT ON THEM..


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## joeswine

*Cellos for fun*

SIMPLE FORMAT FOR LEMON CELLO... 



 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: franklin township, nj
Posts: 3,337 
Liked 241 Times on 194 Posts
Likes Given: 4




 




*Zesting in the beginning* 
LETS PLAY..............................



Let's make a Cello! IMAGINE THE FLAVORS!
We are only making 2 bottles of lemoncello so that we can show you the process we use.
What you will need:
2 wine 375 wine bottles
mixing vessel (we used a clear pitcher)
wooden spoon
funnel
everclear lemon extract (we made this about month ago and stored in a Ball jar)
simple syrup (made with dissolved cane sugar)

Process:
First, we filled both of the 375ml wine bottles 3/4 the way full with simple syrup, this gives us our volume. We then dumped this into the pitcher.
Next, we filled each of the (2) 375ml wine bottles 1/2 way full of the lemon extract. Then dumped this into the pitcher.
Stir well. (you will see that it seperates because the simple syrup is heavier than the alcohol/extract.)
Once we tasted it and found that it tasted fine as is, we added 2-3 drops of yellow food coloring and gave it another stir. (Some people may ask why add food coloring, we added it to make it more eye appealing. Most commercial lemon cellos do HAVE some type of coloring in them.)
Then we filled the 375ml bottles and corked them. We had enough left over for a shot each to cheer our victory! 
​


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## joeswine

*Coffee cello*

above is the lemon cello ,follow the same methods only using coffee extract and he basics cello recipe......................... 
Espresso Chello
What we used:
9 cups espresso (this is your base) (1 ball jar)
½ ball jar simple syrup
½ ball jar coffee bean extract
½ cup everclear
What to do: 
Add your base (all the espresso, dump in the pot.)
Next , add the coffee bean extract (little at a time, to taste).
Then, add simple syrup to taste, a little at a time. 
The, taste to see if the alch. Is good. Most likely, it will need more.
Add everclear to taste, make sure to not put too much that it overpowers. 
Once you are happy with the results, pour back into (2) clean ball jars and put the lids back on. It should sit a day or so to blend. Then you are ready for bottling. 
Espresso Chello
What we used:
9 cups espresso (this is your base) (1 ball jar)
½ ball jar simple syrup
½ ball jar coffee bean extract
½ cup everclear
What to do: 
Add your base (all the espresso, dump in the pot.)
Next , add the coffee bean extract (little at a time, to taste).
Then, add simple syrup to taste, a little at a time. 
The, taste to see if the alch. Is good. Most likely, it will need more.
Add everclear to taste, make sure to not put too much that it overpowers. 
Once you are happy with the results, pour back into (2) clean ball jars and put the lids back on. It should sit a day or so to blend. Then you are ready for bottling. 
Espresso Chello
What we used:
9 cups espresso (this is your base) (1 ball jar)
½ ball jar simple syrup
½ ball jar coffee bean extract
½ cup everclear
What to do: 
Add your base (all the espresso, dump in the pot.)
Next , add the coffee bean extract (little at a time, to taste).
Then, add simple syrup to taste, a little at a time. 
The, taste to see if the alch. Is good. Most likely, it will need more.
Add everclear to taste, make sure to not put too much that it overpowers. 
Once you are happy with the results, pour back into (2) clean ball jars and put the lids back on. It should sit a day or so to blend. Then you are ready for bottling. 
Espresso Chello
What we used:
9 cups espresso (this is your base) (1 ball jar)
½ ball jar simple syrup
½ ball jar coffee bean extract
½ cup everclear
What to do: 
Add your base (all the espresso, dump in the pot.)
Next , add the coffee bean extract (little at a time, to taste).
Then, add simple syrup to taste, a little at a time. 
The, taste to see if the alch. Is good. Most likely, it will need more.
Add everclear to taste, make sure to not put too much that it overpowers. 
Once you are happy with the results, pour back into (2) clean ball jars and put the lids back on. It should sit a day or so to blend. Then you are ready for bottling.


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## joeswine

*Simple syurp*

A PRIME TOOL FOR EVERYONE'S TOOL BOX....................FOR BOOSTING THE ABV LEVELS AND FOR BACK SWEETING LEARN TO USE THE TOOLS OF THE TRADE....

BASIC LY IT'S A TWO TO ONE MIX SUGAR TO WATER.. 



Feedback Score: 0 reviews



 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: franklin township, nj
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Likes Given: 4




 




*Simple syrup* 
*simple syrup* is a key component in wine making weather your boosting the alcohol level or doing a capitalizations process (same thing) or just back sweetening at the finish ,simple syrup is fundamentally a more assured way to go and the process is simple this is a tool every wine maker should have available in his or hers tool box.To make Simple Syrup
We use Pure Can Sugar Only.
Simple syrup is a 2 to 1 blend (2 parts sugar, 1 part water)
We use ball jars as a measuring device because that is what I store it in.
So, this batch was 4-to-2 blend. (4 ball jars sugar, 2 ball jars water)
which equates to 4 full ball jars of simple syrup ready to use anytime. 
First:
Measure out sugar to water ratio. 
Next, add sugar to a large metal pot.
Now is a good time to take the ball jars and place them in the sink in a tray and have your lids ready and your hot mittens (cooking gloves, whatever you call them!)
Make a well in the center, then dump the water into the well and stir until blended (not disolved yet.)
Next, turn the heat up to high. Stirring frequently until you see it start to clear a little with a light foam on top. Once you see this, you want to stir it constantly. It will go from simmer to rapid boil almost instantly when it's ready to go. Continue to stir, being careful to NOT GET ANY ON YOU! It will take your skin off, it's very HOT!
With a metal spoon you should see through the simple syrup just like water, it will be clear. You will know you are done when this happens. (It will be at a hard boil when this happens.)
You should already have your ball jars clean and ready to go. I place mine in a tin tray in the sink and fill the tray half way up w/ water. I place a wide mouth funnel inside the jars and take the boiling hot simple syrup and CAREFULLY fill the ball jars. Use your mitten and put the lids and rings on the jars and tighten them up. Turn the cold water on them and allow it to run in the tray. The process of the water cooling down the simple syrup will cause a vacuum in the jars and you will hear a "POP!". This will seal your ball jars and by the morning they will be cool and ready for you to handle. This simple syrup will stay good indefinitely. 
This is how I make simple syrup. Another tool in the toolbox.


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## joeswine

*Tools in the tool box*

GO BACK AND REVIEW THE BASICS OF CELLOS AND MAKING SIMPLE SYRUP,THESE ARE KEY ITEMS FOR YOUR TOOL BOX EXPLORE WHEN AND HOW TO USE THEM ,ALONG WITH KMET,SORBATE. HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING/ THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SANITATION AND CLEANING AND HOW TO DEVELOP A GOOD PLAN AND HOW TO EXECUTE THE PROCESS WITHOUT SHORT CUTS,PATIENTS AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE WINE AND IT'S OUTCOME IS A COMBINATION WITH YOU AND NATURE AS WELL AS MAN MADE ELEMENTS ,WHEN YOUR COMFORTABLE WITH THESE STEPS THEN YOU'LL HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT AND WHY , WHEN YOU START TO TWEAK KITS ,FRESH FRUIT OR GRAPES,EVERY WINEMAKER OUT THERE WEATHER PRO OR CELLAR DWELLAR TWEAKS THAT'S THE NATURE OF WINE MAKING ,IF NOT WE WOULD BE DRINKING ................... THINK ABOUT IT?


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## joeswine

*Cornocopia Chardonnay Kit*​ This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the chardonnay concentrate, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.) Note: This is my own modification to this kit. I always strive to improve the quality of kits to suit my own tastes. This is just our way of showing you of how to think "outside the box".

*What we added: 
*1 cup American Oak cubes
2 ball jars of simple syrup
Spring Water

*The steps:
*First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of chardonnay juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. 
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.080. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.10. We wanted this specific SG reading because we do not want fermented fruit juice, we wanted wine. 
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir, added the yeast, and then added our American Oak cubes. 
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait.


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## joeswine

*Post 2:*

These are the last few pictures of this post:


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## sour_grapes

joeswine said:


> We wanted this specific SG reading because we do not want fermented fruit juice, we wanted wine.



You go, Joe!


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## joeswine

*Muscato queen of the italian whites*

THIS IS A GREAT WHITE WINE TO HAVE IN YOUR INVENTORY VIOGNIER,THEY WILL COMPLIMENT ANYONES CAST OF PLAYERS.

White Moscato​Here’s the process*:
*Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the "musk" left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)
Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexpert Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!


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## joeswine

*raisins in the wine*

Follow the process...
,
DID YOU NOTICE THE GOLDEN RAISINS IN THE *SECONDARY* NOT THE PRIMARY,OR HOW *CLOUDY* THE WINE HAD BECAME,THE REASONING FOR THE RAISINS WAS TO ADD A BETTER MOUTH FEEL TO THE FINISH AND IT DID,BUT THE CLOUDY WINE PART NOW THAT BECAME A PROBLEM EVEN WITH SUPERKLEER. THE HAZE STILL CONTINUED NOT UNTIL I DID A _COLD STABILIZATION_ ON THE WINE FOR 3 WEEKS DID IT PRECIPITATE OUT, SEE THE CLARITY OF THE WINE BEFORE AND THEN AFTER,SOMETIMES IT HAPPENS TO A WINE WITH A LOT OF PECTIN IN IT AND I BELIEVE THAT THE MUST CONTENT WAS EXTREMELY HEAVY AND THATS' WHY A LOT OF PEOPLE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM,THIS TURNED OUT VERY NICE MORE OF A SEMI-DRY TO SWEET FINISH .


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## vernsgal

Great readings Joe. Always taking notes!


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## GaDawg

Joe, you post and I'll take notes 

I did the Cornocopia Chardonnay Kit almost the same way but instead of adding the SS after I reached 6 gals. I added 2 lbs of sugar to the original water and my SG was 1.100. Works for me.


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## joeswine

*Chardonnay continues*

although we are still in the fermentation process the pathway is this: establish the *ph* we don't want it to high at all then in the *secondary* I intend to add some _grapefruit zest_ to add a Little brightness and bite to the finish, we'll see.


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## joeswine

*Cornocopia Chardonnay Kit*​ *This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the chardonnay concentrate, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)What we added: *
*1 cup American Oak cubes*
*2 ball jars of simple syrup*
*Spring Water*
*The steps:*
*First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.*
*Next, we added the packet of chardonnay juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. *
*Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.080. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.10. We wanted this specific SG reading because we do not want fermented fruit juice, we wanted wine. *
*Next, we gave the bucket a good stir, added the yeast, and then added our American Oak cubes. *
*The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait. *
*****Update!!*****
*We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.99. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy. *
*Our wine is coming along!*
*Stay tuned... *


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## GaDawg

Joe, keep an eye on these kits. You can get them pretty cheep.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001ELJK3M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


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## joeswine

*Kits*

THE MAIN REASON FOR THIS EXERCISE IS TO TAKE A INEXPENSIVE KIT AND SEE IF I CAN TWEAK IT UP A NOTCH,THESE KITS ARE ACTUALLY KATE'S ,IM JUST A GUIDE ON THIS JOURNEY..IF YOU TAKE IT FOR THE BASE CONCENTRATE THAT IT IS THEN YOU CAN TO A CERTAIN EXTENT MODIFY IT AND MAKE IT ALL IT CAN BE JUST AS YOU WOULD DO A HIGH END KIT.AT LEAST THAT'S MY THEORY.


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## joeswine

*Adding the blackberries*

BLACKBERRY PINO NIOR,THE DEPTH OF BERRIES AND THE FRESHNESS OF PINO A GREAT COMBINATION OF FLAVORS FOR A GREAT WINE.......HAVE YOU TRIED IT?????
 UPDATE: THIS KIT IS NEARLY READY TO BOTTLE THEN IT SHOULD SIT TO BE ALL IT CAN BE ..........
 
*Blackberry Pinot Noir*​​We purchased a medium grade kit (~$80-$90) Pinot Noir Winexpert Kit. We wanted Blackberry Pinot Noir so we purchased 1.5 lbs. of blackberries to go with this. 

*The Winexpert box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Pack of Red star Champagne Yeast
· 2 Chaptalization Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphate) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 1 package of oak chips
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Liters/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphate Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
· Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher ACHOLO. Content. It would just be juice with not much ACHOLO.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
· Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
· Then we added the oak chips and sprinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit. 
· Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the F-pack 
· We added the the F-pak to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
· We added bellied-bands because it’s chilly in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. J

(REWRITE WHAT IS BELOW TO MAKE IT GO W/ THIS WINE.)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Winexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

UPDATE:​We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 


We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


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## corinth

*When good wines gone baad*

Mr. Joeswine,

I am definitely interested in how(your chardonnay ) turns out. I would love all the details as I am a newbie at this. I am the one that posted looking for a "Lazy Mans Wine. I hope you continue to with your details(wonderful stuff) and pictures(great visauls but only as you are comfortable. I also posted a thread on temperature with some interesting info on Chardonnay's that you might find interesting.

Whatever the case, I will eat up or drink up anything you have to say concerning the kit you bought on Amazon( they own me!). I am also very interested in your tweaking methods to improve upon the end product.

a couple of questions:
1. is there an expiration date on those kits since I am ready to put a blueberry and a Pino Noir into a secondary carboy so I do not want to try to do too much. 
2. What temperature are you keeping the chardonnay at during the primary fermentation and what kind of yeast did it come with.

I apologize for all the questions but since I am pretty new at this, I am fascinated and full of questions even though I keep reading, taking notes and have already taken everything you posted on this kit and added it to my computer with your name next to it so I can study everything you have printed out.,

OK. I will shut up now
Thank you,
Corinth


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## joeswine

*Corinth*

NO EXPIRATION DATE THAT I CAN SEE,BUT THE JUICE SMELLED FRESH,WERE KEEPING IT AROUND 70/72 DEGREES IN THE BASEMENT.I USED EC1118 FOR TRUER FERMENTATION NOT KNOWING WHAT THE BASE WINE WAS.AND ALWAYS ASK ,I'M GLAD TO HEAR YOU FOLLOW ME,WE WILL PICK UP THE CHARDONNAY IN 7 TO 9 DAYS AND START THE CLEARING PROCESS WE WILL POST THE EVENT,YOURS JP...IT'S A LOT TO FOLLOW DO TO THE FACT WE SWITCH FROM PROJECT TO PROJECT ,BUT YOU CAN ALWAYS ASK.


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## joeswine

*Chardonnay continues*

INEXPENSIVE KITS CAN BE FUN AND TASTY IF YOU WANT TO PLAY WITH YOUR WINE.........CONTINUED 



 REMEMBER WE BOOST THE ABV ON THIS CHAR, ALSO TO CREATE A MORE BALANCED AND SMOOTHER CHARD WE ARE GOING TO ADD A SMALL AMOUNT OF TANNINS ALSO,PAY ATTENTION.


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## joeswine

*Chardonnay continues*

CHARD. CONTINUED: 
Cornocopia Chardonnay Kit​This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the chardonnay concentrate, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)
*What we added: 
1 cup American Oak cubes
2 ball jars of simple syrup  (THIS IS WERE WE DEPARTED FROM THE FLOW)
Spring Water
The steps:
*First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of chardonnay juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. 
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.080. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.10. We wanted this specific SG reading because we do not want fermented fruit juice, we wanted wine. 
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir, added the yeast, and then added our American Oak cubes. 
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait. 
Update!!
We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.99. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy. 
Our wine


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## joeswine

Hello Everyone!
I promised we would give an update on this wine. We were quite surprised with this one. For those of you who are not familiar with this kit that we are currently experimenting with, this is a Chardonnay kit from Cornucopia. We paid ~$45.00 for this kit off Amazon. 
On 7-3-2014 we added the clearing agent that came with the kit, the K-Met (Metabisulphate), and Sorbate, then stirred it up and let it sit. 
Tonight (7-10-2014) we checked in on this kit and gave it the run down. Here’s our results:
PH: 3.4
Appearance: Not quite clear enough yet. This is most likely because we added the extra sugar/simple syrup in the beginning. We are going to add another packet of clearing agent (super-kleer) and let it sit another week.
Aroma: Fruity 
Taste: Again, Fruity, light oak, and def. young but pleasantly its good so far! This is going to be a descent wine when finished
I’ll check back with this kit in another week or so and post an update. Hopefully it will be clear by then! 
Cheers!
Joe and Kate

7/14 THE ADDITION OF GRAPEFRUIT ZEST AT THIS PONT IS IMPORTANT TO THE OVER ALL TASTE AND TEXTURE, ADDING IT AT THIS POINT JUST BEFORE BOTTLING AND CLEARRING WILL GIVE IT A CRISP BITE AND=== THIS KIT IS ALL BUT DONE.


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## joeswine

*Chardonnay continues*

GO BACK AND REVIEW THE 7/14 UPDATE AND PRODUCT FLOW............................


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## joeswine

*C*

*CHARDENAY CONTINUED* ,AT THIS JUNCTURE WE ARE RACKING FROM THE LEES AND THE ZEST AS BEST AS POSSIBLE,WE WILL LET IT SET FOR ONE MORE WEEK THEN BOTTLE,SO FAR THE TASTE PROFILE IS SPOT ON FOR A CHARDENAY WITH GREAT CITRUS BACKGROUND,A LITTLE WOOD AND GOOD ACIDITY IN FACT I TOOK A *PH READING* AND I WAS BETWEEN *3.4 AND 3.5,*NOT BAD FOR A CHEAP KIT THE LEGS WERE EXCELLENT AND THE TASTE JUST RIGHT .THIS IS ONE CHEAP KIT THAT HAS A LOT OF BANG FOR THE BUCK,TRY IT .*TO BE CONTINUED AND FINISHED BY NEXT THURSDAY.WITH THE ADDITIONS WE MADE IT MAKES IT ALL WORTH WHILE.............................................................................*


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## LoneStarLori

I'm glad you did this kit. I have been wondering how bad they were. But it sounds like you turned it into something drinkable. Would you say about an $8 bottle or better?



Sent from my iPad Air using Wine Making


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## joeswine

*Cheap wine kits*

TO BE HONEST ,THE BLENDED KITS BLACK BERRY ZIN,IT'S A 8.99 BOTTLE BUT THE TWO STRAIGHT UP KITS THE CAB AND THE CHARDENAY FINISHED OUT WITH THE TWEAKS IN MY OPPION 8.99 TO 10.99 WITHOUT THINKING AND I HAVE TRIED MANY AT THOSE PRICE RANGES THE TRICK IT TO THINK OF THEN=M AS JUST A WINE BASE AND TAKE THE BASE WHEN YOU WANT IT TO FINISH OUT WITHOUT OVERPOWERING THE BASE.REMEMBER I' DOING THESE KITS FOR SOMEONE ELSE NOT ME(Kate)THE FINIAL TASTE VERDICT IS HER'S ALONE,I HAD MY BUDDY KITO OVER LAST NIGHT TO PICK UP HIS BLACKBERRY PINO NIOR AND HE'S ASK THIS IS A $44.00 KIT AND HOW DIDI I FINISH IT SO FAST,HE'S GOING ON LINE AND BUYING TO STRAIGHT KITS.THE TWEAKS WORK YOU JUST HAVE TO BE ABLE TO ADJUST AND MOVE THE BASE IN YOUR DIRECTION.


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## joeswine

*Cheap kits*

OK WELL WE ARE DONE THIS KIT AND IT IS BOTTLED GREAT VALUE AT ANY PRICE IT JUST TAKES PLANNING AND FOLLOW THROUGHT

(Kate didn't like the labels that came with the kit so on a whim, she whipped up a basic one so they are labeled.)


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## joeswine

*Cornocopia Cocoanut Frascata Kit

*​ This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit contained the Frascata concentrate, Cocoanut F-pak, as well as labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)

What we added: 
ball jar of simple syrup
Spring Water
The steps:
First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
Next, we added the packet of frascata juice and then topped up to 5.5 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. (This kit makes 6 gal. but it seemed a bit weak, I didn't want it to be too thin in the end.)
Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.070. We wanted our SG reading to be a little higher, so we added the ball jar of simple syrup and this brought it up one point. Our SG now is 1.08
Next, we gave the bucket a good stir and added the yeast.
The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and draped a towel over the top. Now we wait. 
Update: 
Week 2: We racked to the glass carboy and just let it sit. 
week 3: Tonight we added the packets or sorbate, k-met, and fining agent, and the cocoanut F-pak. I must say, the F pak is DELICIOUS! I would love to get my hand on another fpak like that to experient with. We wrapped the towel around the carboy and put it to sleep. 
Stay tuned for week 4! We plan on racking if all goes well. More to come.
Cheers!
Joeswine and Kate

***UPDATE!!!***
It was almost clear, but not quite. This was a 4-week kit and we are right on the target with the timeline. It's sometimes amazing how accurate these kits can be if you follow the process.
We originally put this in a 6 gal. carboy. we racked down to a 5-gallon and added a bit of dry nitrogen to fill in a little headspace. One more week and this wine will be going into bottles and will be nice and clear.
Stay tuned!!


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## joeswine

*Caramel port continued*

PROCESS CONTINUED ,THIS IS A VERY EASY KIT TO DO AND WITH TIME IN THE BOTTLE IT'S QUITE NICE ......FOLLOW THE PROCESS IN PROGRESS...........................................................


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## joeswine

*Caramel port*

caramel port moving forward, here 'are my tasting notes my original caramel port is 1 year old and the butterscotch flavor is coming through and is outstanding. Follow...............the cap is gone and we racked off to a 3 gallon carboy, we then added the fpac and chems along with the finning agents wait a week take a reading and decide then whether to wait one more week or prepare to bottle, this is a quick responding kit so be prepared to reacted.


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## joeswine

*zesting in the beginning*

WHERE GOING TO TAKE A SIDE STEP AND REVIEW ZESTING CELLOS MAKER GREAT HOLIDAY GIFTS BUT YOU NEED TO START SOON FOLLOW THE PROCESS...
Making Extracts​ All recipes are measured out with one quart Ball Jar.​* Citrus Extract*: Consists of The zest of 2 limes, the zest of 2 lemons, and the zest of 2 grapefruits, and the remainder is ever Kleer. 
* Coffee Extract*: fill Ball jar up with roasted coffee beans (your choice), fill the balance of the Ball jar with Ever Kleer. 
* Cinnemon Extract*- ~approx. 12 sticks per Ball jar, top up with Ever Kleer
* Lemon extract*- The Zest of 12 lemons per jar, top up with Ever Kleer
* Orange extract*: The zest of approx.. 8 oranges per jar. Valenzia oranges work best but any type will do. 
* Key Lime Extract*: 1 bag of key limes with the limes cut in half. 
* Vanilla Extract*: 6 Madagascar Vanilla Beans, sliced length wise. Put all 6 in a ball jar and top off with Ever Kleer. 
At the end of one full year its best to pour the extract through some sort of filter (I strain mine through a coffee filter) and add some additional zest of the same type back to it and top it off with Ever Kleer.
* ​ Making Simple Syrup​* Basic mix consists of : 2 qt. ball jars of cane sugar to 1 qt. ball jar of water. 
* Process:
* Place measured out sugar into a metal pot. Add the water to the mix (It’s a 2 to 1 ratio-mix). Bring the mixture to a boil, constantly stirring from the beginning of the process to the end until the liquid is clear. Have the ball jars already sanitized and ready for filling. Bring the simple syrup TO the jar and and funnel it into them (make sure your funnel is clean, too!) to fill them up. It will be hot so be very careful. Place the lids and metal rings onto the jars to seal them.
* Note*_: we put the very hot liquid into the jars while it is hot so as it cools it creates a vacuum seal to keep the mixture good. Done this way, your simple syrup will have a very long shelf life. 
_ Zesting Made Simple​ Zesting is the process of the removal of the color of most citrus fruits and other entities that are oil extracted (for their essence). We use a micro plane zester to accomplish our end. See pictures. (If you do not have a micro plane zester you can use a fine cheese grater (Your goal is to get the color off the fruit, not the pitch, which is the "white stuff" underneath the very top layer of the fruit.)


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## joeswine

*Zesting continued*

ZESTING FOR FUN AND FLAVOR WEATHER YOUR MAKING A FPAC OR A CELLO ZESTING IS YOUR PARTNER THE PROCESS CONTINUES


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry pino nior*

THIS KIT TURN OUT DEEP AND LUSCIOUS FOLLOW THE PROCESS BOTTLING WILL BEGIN VERY SOON.....* Blackberry Pinot Noir​* ​ We purchased a medium grade kit (~$80-$90) Pinot Noir Winexpert Kit. We wanted Blackberry Pinot Noir so we purchased 1.5 lbs. of blackberries to go with this. 

*The Winexpert box includes the following: 
*  Large bag of juice 
  1 Pack of Redstar Champagne Yeast
  2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar) 
  Package #2 (bentonite) 
  Package #3 (Metabisulphite) 
  Package #4 (Sorbate) 
  Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
  Mesh Straining Bag 
  1 package of oak chips
* Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
  Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
  Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
  Measuring cup 
  Hydrometer and test jar 
  Thermometer 
  Siphon rod and hose 
  Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
  Bung and Air lock 
  Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
  Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
  Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
  30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
  Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
* The Process:* 
  As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself.  
  Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
  Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
  Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
  Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher alch. Content. It would just be juice with not much alch.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
  Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
  Then we added the oak chips and prinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit. 
  Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the F-pak. 
  We added the the F-pak to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
  We added bellie-bands because it’s chilly in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. 
 　
(REWRITE WHAT IS BELOW TO MAKE IT GO W/ THIS WINE.)
* Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 
 UPDATE:​ We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry fpac*

THIS IS A EXCELLENT ELEMENT TO WORK WITH....FOLLOW THE FLOW


----------



## codeman

So the oak is just free floating around? How do you go about straining it out?


----------



## joeswine

*Straining the oak*

EASY ENOUGH TO DO WITH A HAND STRAINER and as i make the wine I'm adding tannins also which will dissipate as well as settle out ,if you need to do that process use a hand strainer


----------



## joeswine

*Grape fpacs*

ALL IT TAKES IS A LITTLE THOUGHT AND PLANNING AND YOU CAN CREATE YOUR OWN GRAPE PACK ON YOUR OWN...DO YOU WANT TO??

FOLLOW THIS EASY PROCESS AND YOU'LL BE THERE........................

WASH GRAPES
DE STEM
PLACE IN NON STICK SAUTÉ PAN / ON LOW HEAT
ADD 1/2 CUP ANY WHITE WINE
SIMMER GRAPES AND WINE TILL GRAPES BECOME SOFT/THE ACHOLO WILL BURN OFF
GENTLY SMASH THE GRAPES UNTIL STARTING TO SPITTING AND SOFT/ LET COOL AND PLACE IN AIR TIGHT VACUUM BAGS OR ZIP LOCK BAGS
FREEZE UNTIL NEEDED...THAT'S ALL FOLKS.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz with black corithian grapes*

WERE GETTING CLOSE TO BOTTLING TIME ON THIS ONE SO LETS REVIEW THE FLOW AGAIN,


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz continued*

SHARAZ CONTINUED FOLLOW THE FLOW
*Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· 1 Hungarian Oak
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


UPDATE:​


----------



## corinth

*Fpac raspberries*

HI JOE,
I i was to make a FPAC out of raspberries, what type of wine would I use?
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*Adding to the mix*

using raspberries is a great enhancer, partnered with SHARAZ,or a Cabernet, with good balance of both grape and berry you can't go wrong, PINO NIOR goes exceptionally well with blackberries as do *raisins* and *amarone* and *tampranello,* using plums with the *cabernet *works very well also. All you need to do is look at the taste profiles and THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz and corinthian grapes*

AS ALWAYS FOLLOW THE PROCESS THIS IS HOW WE GOT HEAR AND READY FOR BOTTLING NEXT THURSDAY...............


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz with black corithian grapes*

PROCESS CONTINUED,THIS ONE IS GOING TO BE EARLY DRINKING AND SOT ON WITH BALANCE................ *Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite 
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 1 Hungarian Oak 
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


(
A Grape that isn't a Grape but is a Grape
Lon Rombough 
If you've ever had currant buns, or any other baked product with "currants" in them, you, like 99.9% of the public, thought the "currants" were the little red fruits that grow on bushes. Nope.
The dried "currants" used in baking are actually a true raisin, a dried grape. Called "currants" because one of the names of the grape they come FROM is "Zante Currant" also known as Black Corinth, and many other names, THIS is the variety dried INTO "currants" that are used in baking.
Black Corinth is the name you will usually find it under in America, though in recent years it has become known as "the Champagne grape" due to advertising by a produce dealer who specializes in it. Ironically, there is an old American grape called "Champagne" that is a very coarse, rough tasting labrusca grape of low quality, about as far FROM Champagne as you could get.
Black Corinth is a very odd grape in many ways. In it's natural state, the clusters have very few berries and they are hardly bigger than pinheads. In wild grapes, the sexes are in separate vines, male flowers on one, female flowers on another. This is true even in wild Vitis vinifera, the classic grape of commerce. Black Corinth is an "almost male" in that the flowers have well developed anthers, and very tiny ovaries, probably representing a first step towards evolution of a perfect flowered grape. Hence, when it does set fruit, there are only a few per cluster and the berries are tiny and seedless. However, the variety was doubtless kept as a source of pollen so that the female flowered varieties would set full crops.
How did Black Corinth come to be used at all, if the berries are so few and tiny?
It's a very old variety, probably Greek, and the story goes that a donkey was tied to a vine of it and the animal started going around the vine until the halter rope rubbed the bark off. Instead of dying, the vine healed the wound and the grapes, which were minuscule in other years, were large enough to eat after the vine was girdled. There is certainly a grain of truth in the fable as girdling was a standard practice in increasing the set and size of seedless grapes until the discovery of the plant hormone gibberellic acid and it's ability to do the same thing with less labor.
Girdling, or hormone treatment, causes the clusters to set full crops, though the berries are still tiny. Because the stems also remain tiny, the berries can be eaten with the stems on. This makes the variety seem very dainty and rather glamorous (thanks especially to articles showing frosted clusters of them with glasses of champagne - hence the "champagne" grape) and home growers who have seen this decide that Black Corinth would be fun to grow., which is too bad because it's NOT a home grower's grape.
First, of over 200 varieties in my collection, it is the most susceptible to powdery mildew. As pure Vitis vinifera, it is also completely susceptible to all the other diseases of grapes - downy mildew, black rot, etc. And since it comes FROM such a mild country, it can't be counted on as being hardy to much more than 0°F. But more than anything else, unless the vine is treated with hormone at bloom time, or girdled, the berries are minuscule and the clusters are straggly. So while it looked romantic in the magazine, it's NOT worth the work for most homeowners. Buy the fruit in the store, if you must, but don't bother trying to grow it.
Black Corinth - the grape that's a Currant (Zante) that's a grape.


----------



## LoneStarLori

Joe, I can't tell from the pictures. Did you ferment the Corinth grapes with the stems on? Nice pics, by the way.


----------



## joeswine

*Corthinian grapes*

yes ,simple because their tiny grapes and in some cases people eat the stems and all,also there was only about a lb.,not worth the trouble even if i could de stem them,.


----------



## LoneStarLori

I sure wish I could find some of those, fresh. I would really like to try that tweak.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz and corinthian grapes*

follow the flow this turned out to be quit successful and very tasty.............
* 
*


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz continued*

FOLLOW THE FLOW ADDING THE GRAPES MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A DECENT WINE AND A GREAT ONE ,WOULD YOU TRY? *Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite 
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 1 Hungarian Oak 
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


(from here on down is still info for amarone, we have to still edit it. We are not yet in the secondary for the shiraz)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

UPDATE:​ WE HAVE JUST RE-RACKED AND WILL BOTTLE NEXT THURSDAY OR SO,THIS ENXPENSIVE KIT WITH GOOD TWEAKS AND A EVEN BETTER OUT COME CANE OUT OF KNOWING AND PLANNING, DON'T BE AFRAID TO WORK THE KIT , THAT IS WHAT IT'S THERE FOR .BUT YOU FIRST MUST KNOW WHAT YOUR BASE WINES TASTING PROFILE IS AND THEN YOU CAN WORK A PLAN TO MATCH THAT AND MAKE IT A BETTER FINISHED PRODUCT .THIS IS WHAT GOOD WINERIES DO ALL THE TIME YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT ,WE CAN DO THE SAME ONLY ON A MUCH SMALLER SCALE. ​ ​


----------



## geek

Joe, I will make some simple syrup tonight and would like to know how much sugar/water you use to fill one of those jars?
I know the ratio is 1 cup of water to 2 cups of sugar but want to know how many to get a full jar.


----------



## zalai

LoneStarLori said:


> I sure wish I could find some of those, fresh. I would really like to try that tweak.



Why not use California wine grapes ? This time of the year you could buy a lug of grapes and freeze your leftovers for your next kit .
There are many postings about people buying a juice bucket and they add some grapes to the juice . They admit that the juice bucket is like a mid grade kit . Why not use grapes with a mid grade kit ? I think you would have a great wine and would be ready to drink faster than a juice bucket .
( I used more than 1 lb )


----------



## ibglowin

Believe it or not not everybody has easy access to California Wine Grapes this time of year. Outside of the folks in the Med-East area you have to look hard to find them. If you do find them a 36lb lug is about the minimum you can order. I did see some California Wine Grapes one time years ago now in Whole Foods (Whole Paycheck). The price was ridiculous. I don't think they sold any and hence that is why I have never seen them since.


----------



## joeswine

*Adding to the mix*

the reason i don't buy a luge of grapes of a certain TYPE is that a luge is usually 18lbs.and i don't need that quantity at any time when i can make a fpac at will and use it when i want suppose you don't have freezer space to give up for grapes and if you don't vacuum seal them properly they can crystallize and taste burnt.on the other hand if i could buy say,chardenay grapes by the pound then i would considerate and I would do just that ,IT's a matter of preference and space.


----------



## joeswine

*SHARAZ with Corinthian grapes*

follow the flow will be ready to bottle in a week ,great color and aroma you can do this too with planning and thought.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz with black corithian grapes*

the flow continues................. *Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite 
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 1 Hungarian Oak 
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


(from here on down is still info for amarone, we have to still edit it. We are not yet in the secondary for the shiraz)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent).


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz and corinthian grapes*

flow to the finish.............
 this wine although young has a good solid foundation on which to mature, dry and deep yet you can still taste the fruit coming through, good alcohol balanced out the oak and tannins ,add great color and decent aroma for this kit which most don't have any aroma to speak of that's were the CORTHINIAN grapes hold there own as a stabilizer good value at $60.00 plus labels.don't be afraid to put your touch on your wine what's the most that can happen *you fail and learn for the next time we all do.*


----------



## Hani

Hi there! 

My uncle's just found that there was a piece of newspaper in the bucket. Should it be discarded? 


Thanks
Hani


----------



## sour_grapes

Yes, throw it away. You don't want newspaper in your wine.


----------



## RegarRenill

sour_grapes said:


> Yes, throw it away. You don't want newspaper in your wine.




...keep the wine, recycle the newspaper


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


----------



## sour_grapes

Yes, yes. RegarRenill is correct. I did not mean to throw away your wine. Keep the wine. Discard the newspaper. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz with black corithian grapes*

lets take this from the top ,if you can find the Corinthian grapes use them if you can find ZANTES currents their the same only hydrated, fresh have a very different profile though.
follow the flow till the end ,planning and knowing your process even with the TWEAKS is paramount .remember this was a $44.00 kit and it turned out ,outstanding if I do say so myself.


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz with Corinthian grapes*

the process continues follow the flow......remember plan your work and work your plan......... *Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite 
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 1 Hungarian Oak 
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


(from here on down is still info for amarone, we have to still edit it. We are not yet in the secondary for the shiraz)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the WinexpertKit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

​


----------



## Hani

Thank you very much!



sour_grapes said:


> Yes, yes. RegarRenill is correct. I did not mean to throw away your wine. Keep the wine. Discard the newspaper. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## corinth

*-good-wines-gone-bad-*

Joe following up on a couple of points:
1. if you have the fresh Black Corinth grapes, use them as you have in the primary
2. If these are dehydrated Zante Corinth grapes, would you just add them to the primary and let them re-hydrate themselves

would you add the above to the secondary ? If you did, what options would you take and what do you think the outcome would be?

I have read your previous posts on add to the primary versus the secondary but sine these are dehydrated vs. real grapes? Conjecture?
Thanks
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*corinth*

QUESTION 1. I WROTE A THREAD ABOUT PARTNERSHIPS BETWEEN ADDITIVES IN THE PRIMARY AS APPOSED TO THE SECONDARY AND THE ROLL THEY PLAY IN THE TASTE AND FINISH OF THE WINE.
  ZANTES- IN THE PRIMARY, ADDS TO THE OVERALL TASTE PROFILE, MIXING WITH THE JUICE BASE AND BECOMING A BLENDED WINE.USUALLY 1 LB. TO SIX GALLONS IS A GOOD BLEND.
  ZANTES- IN THE SECONDARY WILL DO THE SAME THING ONLY WITH NOT HAVE AS _MUCH IMPACT_ TO THE TASTE OF THE WINE BUT TO THE STRUCTURE,A POSITIVE AFFECT.THEY WILL PARTNER BETTER. RE-HYDRATE IN THE SECONDARY JUST BEFORE FERMENTATION IS COMPLETED.
 FRESH FRUIT SUCH AS GRAPES ALWAYS DO BETTER IN THE PRIMARY AS A DIRECT PARTNERSHIP IN THE FINIAL OUTCOME OF THE PROCESS.
  ANY HELP FOR YOU ?.....
 * ZESTING* IS ALWAYS BEST DO IN THE SECONDARY OR EVEN THE THIRD RACKING ,1 MONTH BEFORE BOTTLING AND IS A POSITIVE ENHANCER.THIS ACTS AS AS A ACIDITY BOOSTER AS WELL AS CONTRIBUTING TO THE BRIGHTNESS IN THE FINISH.


----------



## corinth

*/when-good-wines-gone-bad-*

Thanks Joe,
i do have all your notes and read through them but I just needed to hear it one more time as this time, there a couple of things I obviously missed but fill in the gaps.
Again, thank you.
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*SHARAZ with black CORTHINIAN grapes*

good back and follow the flow ............


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz with black corinthian grapes*

Excellent way to give a decent kit a sparkle and a fruity finish,chorinthian grapes are easy to work with and taste great.follow the flow................


----------



## joeswine

*SHARAZ with black CORTHINIAN grapes*

FLOW CONTINUES.............. WE'LL *Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite 
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 1 Hungarian Oak 
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


(from here on down is still info for amarone, we have to still edit it. We are not yet in the secondary for the shiraz)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 



.​BE READY TO BOTTLE VERY SOON


----------



## joeswine

*SHARAZ with CORTHINIAN grapes*

off to the finish


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz and corinthian grapes*

go back and review the flow.......tasted this last night you won't believe the great taste from a cheap kit with just a little thought and planning..


----------



## joeswine

*sharaz with corthian grapes*

*TOOK* this wine out for the first time to a dinner along with my *2008 AMARONE* to a party of 37 men (retirement party ) the *SHARAZ* was a hit and the _AMARONE_ was gone in a flash, this was a mid priced kit with a twist give it a try, you'll like it.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz and corinthian grapes*

 *Wineexpert Shiraz Kit*​ 
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite 
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 1 Hungarian Oak 
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


(from here on down is still info for amarone, we have to still edit it. We are not yet in the secondary for the shiraz)
UPDATE:​ We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

*SHARAZ with black CORTHINIAN grapes*

*Winexpert Shiraz Kit*​
Here is our kit that we received from Winexpert. This kit had the bulk of the items listed below included (we added the Corinth grapes, simple syrup, different yeast, and extra tannins). 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 1 Lb Corinth Grapes (we crushed them)
· 1 Package of ICV-D254 (this kit came with a red-star premium yeast packet, I choose this packet. More info below.)
· 2 Ball Jars of Simple Syrup (each ball jar equates to 1% abv)
· bentonite
· Metabisulphite
· Sorbate
· Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· 1 Hungarian Oak
· 1 tbsp wine tannins
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.080. 
· Now, here comes the Hungarian oak! 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! This kit came with a Red Star Premier yeast. I however choose to use ICV-D254. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 



*These are the characteristics and the reasons why we choose the yeast we choose: *
ICV-D254 (when used with Shiraz) makes wine that has a big mouth feel and rounding of tannins, intense fruit, more dried then fresh along with a nice spicy quality if present in the fruit. Helps with color, stability and its useful for adding body to blends. 


UPDATE:​
We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.

THIS IS A OUTSTANDING YOUNG DRINKING WITH NO AGING REQUIRED


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz /viognier*

this was a super kit to work with and a excellent finishing wine with a couple of months in the bottle to set up it will be a excellent addition to the cellar and i would do this one again.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz /viognier*

phase two ...............


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz/vioginer*

THE PROCESS CONTINUES.....


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaza /viognier*

NOTICED HOW I REHYDRATED THE FPAC,JUST GENTLY WARMED IT OVER A LOW FLAME,THIS REDYDRATES QUICKER AND STARTS TO RELEAST THE ELEMENTS IF ANY LEFT IN THE FPAC SUPPLIED BY THE MFG.....


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz viognier,,cru 6 week kit*

great kit great finished product adding the few tweaks makes all the difference..................


----------



## corinth

Hi Joe,
I see that you re hydrated the fpac that came with the kit. Understood.
Did you then discard the water after you re-hydrated it?
Thanks 
Corinth


----------



## Rocky

Corinth, I am guessing that Joe used that water as part of the addition to the concentrate. I would certainly do that because it would give more flavor than plain water.


----------



## joeswine

*Sharaz /viognier*

THAT'S correct ROCKY, no sense in tossing out pure extract ,it's all good for the mix.


----------



## joeswine

*What's on the wine table*

THIS year we will think small and achieve big flavors:

 first rom WE , we are going to make a DIABLO ROJO KIT.I chose to make this for the simple reason I never made a ROJO style wine. the Kit was $79.99 there going up. TASTING notes, Off dry and dark purple in color with a nose of blackberry jam and creamy vanilla aromas and a touch of tobacco. Oak heavy and medium body.

 tweaks: bump up abv.to 1.10,add smoked staves ,add tannins and a small amount of blackberries.

SECOND:FROM WE, blackberry desert port. THIS one I have a taste sample bottle from BOATBOY to see what his is like, never tasting one this is the best way .PLAN

MY TWEAKS: will be to bump up abv to 1.12 add a quart of blackberries to the primary add tannins to the secondary then wait>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

FROM SPAGNOL'S :CRU INTERNATIONAL: Semillon sauvignon blanc, MY tweaks: will be boost the abv. to 1.10,add 1/2/ cup oak, change the yeast to d47,and add the Thompson seedless grape fpac to the secondary just for added support to the body.

FROM WE;TORRONTES,this was one I have always wanted to try now it will be done.MY Tweaks' on this one will be MODERATE using EC1118 for the yeast, boost the abv. to 1.10,this wine has a citrus and mineral taste to it, so if any thing I'll add some grapefruit zest after the secondary for a week of two just to give it bite, and brighten up the finish.
I also have two ciders will do in-between.
We're going to be busy so hang in there with us and as always............THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo kit*

SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO START THE NEW YEAR OFF,THIS IS A DIABLO ROJO KIT FROM WE/VINTNER ADDITION .A BLANK CANVAS TO DO MY STYLE OF WINE MAKING ON,LOTS OF OAK,14%ABV AND FRUIT FORWARD WHEN I"M FINISHED,STAY TUNED AND SEE HOW I LIKE TO PLAY WITH MY DRINK..FOLLOW THE FLOW AND WATCH THE TWEAKS ..


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo kit*

PART ONE CONTINUES.....FOLLOW THE FLOW,,. I KNOW THE ABV. SEEMS HIGH BUT NOT FOR A LOT OF EUROPEAN WINES THIS ONE WILL BE ROBUST IN EVER ASPECT ,TASTE,AROMA AND STRUCTURE.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo kit*

NOW DAY 5 AND IT'S STILL FERMENTING STRONG AND SMELLS GREAT....


----------



## joeswine

*DIABLO ROJO KIT continued*

now we are in the degassing stage and waiting to see stage...........it smells great and looks delouses


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes*

WHILE THE DIABLO ROJO HAS IS STILL MOVING FORWARD I WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE YOU WHO HAVEN'T BEEN AWARE OF A GREAT WHITE ARGENTINIAN WHITE WINE,TORRONTES.LETS TAKE A LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THIS GRAPE AND IT'S MAKE UP.I WILL BE DOING A *WE 2012/KIT*,CHANGING THE YEAST AND BOOSTING UP THE ABV. THAT'S ALL.NOTICE THE KIT DATE!NOTHING WRONG WITH THE CONTENTS EXCEPT THE YEAST WILL CHANGE THAT TO NEW BUT KEEP THE TYPE,WHICH IS A *LAVIN/K1-V1116.*
*TORRONTES* is a white Argentine winegrape variety, producing 

*TORRONTES*​

*Grape (Vitis)*​​

*Color of berry skin*
Blanc
*Species*
_Vitis vinifera_
*Also called*
Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, Torrontés Mendocino, Torrontel, and other synonyms
*Notable regions*
Argentina

fresh, aromatic wines with moderate acidity, smooth texture and mouthfeel as well as distinctive peach and apricot aromas on the nose.[1] Three Torrontés varieties exist in Argentina: *Torrontés Riojano*, the most common, *Torrontés Sanjuanino*, and *Torrontés Mendocino*. It is primarily Torrontés Riojano that has received attention for the quality of its wines, and is the variety used for most Argentine wines simply labeled Torrontés.[2]
The three grapes are relatively similar but do have some noticeable differences. Torrontés Riojano and Torrontés Sanjuanino both tend to have large loose bunches of pale grapes while Torrontés Mendocino, however, has smaller, tighter bunches of darker yellow grapes. Torrontés Riojano is the most aromatic of the three, with aromas reminiscent of Muscat and Gewürtztraminer wines. The least aromatic, and least widely planted, is Torrontés Mendocino with the aromatics and plantings of Torrontés Sanjuanino falling in between.[3] All three Argentine Torrontés varieties belong to the _Criollas_ group of grape varieties, which is a term used for presumably American-born cultivars of the European grapevine _Vitis vinifera_.[4]
Around 8,700 hectares (21,000 acres) in Argentina have been planted with Torrontés Riojano, and 4,850 hectares (12,000 acres) with Torrontés Sanjuanino. Plantings in the very high altitudes (1700m+) of the Calchaquíes Valleys in the far north of Argentina have recently met with success. The vine is highly productive and is just under ten percent of all white grape plantings, however as a varietal, it made up almost 20 percent of all white wine sold in Argentina in 2008. The Salta region in northwest Argentina is particularly noted for its Torrontés as the grape thrives in cold dry, windswept conditions.
*History and relation to other grapes*

DNA evidence suggest that the Mission grape _(seen here in a late 19th-century photo growing in California)_ is one of the parents of Torrontés.
Recent research using DNA profiling has shown that the different Torrontés are genetically closely related but distinct grape varieties, and that Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, and Torontel (also known as Moscatel Amarillo) are all separate crossings of Mission (originally reported as Criolla Chica) and Muscat of Alexandria.[5][6][7] Torrontés Mendocino was found to probably be a crossing of Muscat of Alexandria and another, so far unidentified grape variety.[8] While the Muscat-like qualities of the Torrontés varieties meant that a relationship to Muscat of Alexandria had been expected, the presence of Mission or Criolla Chica in the pedigree was unexpected to the researchers.[9]
For many years it was believed that the Torrontés of South America was the same variety as the Torrontés grape from Galicia in Spain, also known as Albillo Mayor. This widespread belief was due, in part, to the frequent migration waves of Galician workers that have immigrated to Argentina throughout its history.[2] Indeed, even wine expert Jancis Robinson, noted as much in her 1986 book on the world's grape varieties.[1] However, recent DNA evidence shows that there is probably no direct relationship between the Argentine and Spanish Torrontés varieties[10] and more recent editions of Robinson's wine books acknowledge the new findings.[2]
There is also a less common red wine grape called Torrontés, which is also known under the synonyms Tarrantes and Turrundos.[11]
*Wine regions[*

The provinces of Argentina that grow the most Torrontés. Torrontés Riojano is most widely grown in La Rioja (red) and Salta (orange). Torrontés Sanjuanino is most widely grown in the San Juan province (yellow) while Torrontés Mendocino is most widely grown in the Rio Negro province (blue).

An Argentinian Torrontés.
Torrontés is grown throughout Argentina and its acreage is steadily increasing. Part of its increase in numbers comes from the increase in Argentine wine exportation where the grape has found considerable success in the United States, United Kingdom and aboard but also from a better understanding and identification of the different Torrontés varieties that allow for better accounting of plantings. For most of its history (including into the late 20th century) Torrontés lagged behind Pedro Giménez and Ugni blanc among white grape varieties in Argentina.[2] But by the early 21st century, declining plantings in those two varieties and the growing popularity of Torrontés allowed it to surpass them and become Argentina's most widely planted white variety where it continued to be as of 2008.[4]
The different Torrontés varieties have developed niche in different areas of Argentina. Torrontés Riojano is widely grown in the La Rioja and Salta provinces of northern Argentina and is, in fact, the single most widely planted variety (both red and white) in La Rioja. In Salta, the grape is often planted in high altitude, sandy vineyards that are often more than 1,600 meters (5,200 feet) above sea level. Here, the harsh growing conditions allow the variety to attain high acidity and assertive flavors.[4]
In the arid San Juan province, Torrontés Sanjuanino is found but is planted to a much less significant amount than Torrontés Riojano. Torrontés Mendocino is, by far, the least widely planted variety and is mostly found in the southern province of Rio Negro.[2]
*Outside of Argentina[*
Torrontés is grown in Chile, however, the exact number of plantings (and of which variety) are not completely known. In 1996, Jancis Robinson noted that there were several hundred hectares of _Torontel_ grown but some of these plantings may actually be the Galician variety. Additionally, Torrontés is known in Chile often under the synonym _Moscatel de Austria_ (believed to be Torrontés Sanjuanino).[2]
According to wine expert Oz Clarke, most plantings of Torrontés in Chile is Torrontés Riojano and the grape is primarily used in the production of Chilean brandy wine known as _pisco_.[3]
*Spanish Torrontés[edit]*
While DNA evidence shows that there is probably no relationship between the Galician variety of Torrontés and the South American variety, consumers may still see Spanish wine labeled as Torrontés from the Galician wine region of Ribeiro as well as other _Denominación de Origens_ in such as the Gran Canaria of the Canary Islands (most likely the Terrantez variety of Madeira[4]), Montilla-Moriles and Madrid.[3]
*Wine style[*

Torrontés growing in the Cafayate vineyard of the Salta province.
According to wine expert Janis Robinson, Torrontés has the capability of producing wines of high quality, but its success is dependent on the skill and care of the winemaking process, particularly in maintaining suitable acid levels to balance the wine. At its most ideal, Robinson notes, Torrontés are _"wines for early drinking that are not too heavy, are high in acidity, and are intriguingly aromatic in a way reminiscent of but not identical to Muscat."_[2] But poorer made examples can come across as bitter and excessively alcoholic.[4]
Wine expert Oz Clarke, also notes the dependency on careful vinification for the quality of Torrontés but also notes that the size of the harvestyield can also play a substantial role. While the aroma of Torrontés is often associated with Muscat, Clarke notes that many examples can be very similar to Gewürztraminer with subtle spice notes mixed with the floral bouquet of the wine. Clarke also notes that the wine tends not to age very well and is often consumed within a year of its vintage date.[3]


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

LETS GET STARTED ON THIS KIT IT'S A TWO YEAR OLD KIT GOT IT AT A GOOD PRICE REVISED THE YEAST LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS. IF WE GOT A DEAL OR A DOG.
*Torrontés* is a white Argentine wine grape variety, producing 
*Torrontés*​*Grape (Vitis)*​http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Torrontes.JPG​*Color of berry skin*
Blanc
*Species*
_Vitis vinifera_
*Also called*
Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, Torrontés Mendocino, Torrontel, and other synonyms
*Notable regions*
Argentina

fresh, aromatic wines with moderate acidity, smooth texture and mouthfeel as well as distinctive peach and apricot aromas on the nose.[1] Three Torrontés varieties exist in Argentina: *Torrontés Riojano*, the most common, *Torrontés Sanjuanino*, and *Torrontés Mendocino*. It is primarily Torrontés Riojano that has received attention for the quality of its wines, and is the variety used for most Argentine wines simply labeled Torrontés.[2]
The three grapes are relatively similar but do have some noticeable differences. Torrontés Riojano and Torrontés Sanjuanino both tend to have large loose bunches of pale grapes while Torrontés Mendocino, however, has smaller, tighter bunches of darker yellow grapes. Torrontés Riojano is the most aromatic of the three, with aromas reminiscent of Muscat and Gewürtztraminer wines. The least aromatic, and least widely planted, is Torrontés Mendocino with the aromatics and plantings of Torrontés Sanjuanino falling in between.[3] All three Argentine Torrontés varieties belong to the _Criollas_ group of grape varieties, which is a term used for presumably American-born cultivars of the European grapevine _Vitis vinifera_.[4]
Around 8,700 hectares (21,000 acres) in Argentina have been planted with Torrontés Riojano, and 4,850 hectares (12,000 acres) with Torrontés Sanjuanino. Plantings in the very high altitudes (1700m+) of the Calchaquíes Valleys in the far north of Argentina have recently met with success. The vine is highly productive and is just under ten percent of all white grape plantings, however as a varietal, it made up almost 20 percent of all white wine sold in Argentina in 2008. The Salta region in northwest Argentina is particularly noted for its Torrontés as the grape thrives in cold dry, windswept conditions.
*History and relation to other grapes*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mission_grapes,_by_Hayward_&_Muzzall.jpg
DNA evidence suggest that the Mission grape _(seen here in a late 19th-century photo growing in California)_ is one of the parents of Torrontés.
Recent research using DNA profiling has shown that the different Torrontés are genetically closely related but distinct grape varieties, and that Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, and Torontel (also known as Moscatel Amarillo) are all separate crossings of Mission (originally reported as Criolla Chica) and Muscat of Alexandria.[5][6][7] Torrontés Mendocino was found to probably be a crossing of Muscat of Alexandria and another, so far unidentified grape variety.[8] While the Muscat-like qualities of the Torrontés varieties meant that a relationship to Muscat of Alexandria had been expected, the presence of Mission or Criolla Chica in the pedigree was unexpected to the researchers.[9]
For many years it was believed that the Torrontés of South America was the same variety as the Torrontés grape from Galicia in Spain, also known as Albillo Mayor. This widespread belief was due, in part, to the frequent migration waves of Galician workers that have immigrated to Argentina throughout its history.[2] Indeed, even wine expert Jancis Robinson, noted as much in her 1986 book on the world's grape varieties.[1] However, recent DNA evidence shows that there is probably no direct relationship between the Argentine and Spanish Torrontés varieties[10] and more recent editions of Robinson's wine books acknowledge the new findings.[2]
There is also a less common red wine grape called Torrontés, which is also known under the synonyms Tarrantes and Turrundos.[11]
*Wine regions[*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argentine_provinces_growing_Torrontes.jpg
The provinces of Argentina that grow the most Torrontés. Torrontés Riojano is most widely grown in La Rioja (red) and Salta (orange). Torrontés Sanjuanino is most widely grown in the San Juan province (yellow) while Torrontés Mendocino is most widely grown in the Rio Negro province (blue).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argentina_torrontes.jpg
An Argentinian Torrontés.
Torrontés is grown throughout Argentina and its acreage is steadily increasing. Part of its increase in numbers comes from the increase in Argentine wine exportation where the grape has found considerable success in the United States, United Kingdom and aboard but also from a better understanding and identification of the different Torrontés varieties that allow for better accounting of plantings. For most of its history (including into the late 20th century) Torrontés lagged behind Pedro Giménez and Ugni blanc among white grape varieties in Argentina.[2] But by the early 21st century, declining plantings in those two varieties and the growing popularity of Torrontés allowed it to surpass them and become Argentina's most widely planted white variety where it continued to be as of 2008.[4]
The different Torrontés varieties have developed niche in different areas of Argentina. Torrontés Riojano is widely grown in the La Rioja and Salta provinces of northern Argentina and is, in fact, the single most widely planted variety (both red and white) in La Rioja. In Salta, the grape is often planted in high altitude, sandy vineyards that are often more than 1,600 meters (5,200 feet) above sea level. Here, the harsh growing conditions allow the variety to attain high acidity and assertive flavors.[4]
In the arid San Juan province, Torrontés Sanjuanino is found but is planted to a much less significant amount than Torrontés Riojano. Torrontés Mendocino is, by far, the least widely planted variety and is mostly found in the southern province of Rio Negro.[2]
*Outside of Argentina[*
Torrontés is grown in Chile, however, the exact number of plantings (and of which variety) are not completely known. In 1996, Jancis Robinson noted that there were several hundred hectares of _Torontel_ grown but some of these plantings may actually be the Galician variety. Additionally, Torrontés is known in Chile often under the synonym _Moscatel de Austria_ (believed to be Torrontés Sanjuanino).[2]
According to wine expert Oz Clarke, most plantings of Torrontés in Chile is Torrontés Riojano and the grape is primarily used in the production of Chilean brandy wine known as _pisco_.[3]
*Spanish Torrontés[edit]*
While DNA evidence shows that there is probably no relationship between the Galician variety of Torrontés and the South American variety, consumers may still see Spanish wine labeled as Torrontés from the Galician wine region of Ribeiro as well as other _Denominación de Origens_ in such as the Gran Canaria of the Canary Islands (most likely the Terrantez variety of Madeira[4]), Montilla-Moriles and Madrid.[3]
*Wine style[*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cafayate_vineyard.jpg
Torrontés growing in the Cafayate vineyard of the Salta province.
According to wine expert Jancis Robinson, Torrontés has the capability of producing wines of high quality, but its success is dependent on the skill and care of the winemaking process, particularly in maintaining suitable acid levels to balance the wine. At its most ideal, Robinson notes, Torrontés are _"wines for early drinking that are not too heavy, are high in acidity, and are intriguingly aromatic in a way reminiscent of but not identical to Muscat."_[2] But poorer made examples can come across as bitter and excessively alcoholic.[4]
Wine expert Oz Clarke, also notes the dependency on careful vinification for the quality of Torrontés but also notes that the size of the harvest yield can also play a substantial role. While the aroma of Torrontés is often associated with Muscat, Clarke notes that many examples can be very similar to Gewürztraminer with subtle spice notes mixed with the floral bouquet of the wine. Clarke also notes that the wine tends not to age very well and is often consumed within a year of its vintage date.[3]


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

FOLLOW THE FLOW


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

several days in to fermentation and it's looking great low foaming action and dense aroma.


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

go back and review the Torrontés in the mix before we move on........................................................


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes*

in the flow and looking cloudy theres work ahead follow the flow and we'll see how this works out .I read a lot of threads on cloudy wines well here's one ...
*Torrontés* is a white Argentine wine grape variety, producing 
*Torrontés*​*Grape (Vitis)*​http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Torrontes.JPG​*Color of berry skin*
Blanc
*Species*
_Vitis vinifera_
*Also called*
Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, Torrontés Mendocino, Torrontel, and other synonyms
*Notable regions*
Argentina

fresh, aromatic wines with moderate acidity, smooth texture and mouthfeel as well as distinctive peach and apricot aromas on the nose.[1] Three Torrontés varieties exist in Argentina: *Torrontés Riojano*, the most common, *Torrontés Sanjuanino*, and *Torrontés Mendocino*. It is primarily Torrontés Riojano that has received attention for the quality of its wines, and is the variety used for most Argentine wines simply labeled Torrontés.[2]
The three grapes are relatively similar but do have some noticeable differences. Torrontés Riojano and Torrontés Sanjuanino both tend to have large loose bunches of pale grapes while Torrontés Mendocino, however, has smaller, tighter bunches of darker yellow grapes. Torrontés Riojano is the most aromatic of the three, with aromas reminiscent of Muscat and Gewürtztraminer wines. The least aromatic, and least widely planted, is Torrontés Mendocino with the aromatics and plantings of Torrontés Sanjuanino falling in between.[3] All three Argentine Torrontés varieties belong to the _Criollas_ group of grape varieties, which is a term used for presumably American-born cultivars of the European grapevine _Vitis vinifera_.[4]
Around 8,700 hectares (21,000 acres) in Argentina have been planted with Torrontés Riojano, and 4,850 hectares (12,000 acres) with Torrontés Sanjuanino. Plantings in the very high altitudes (1700m+) of the Calchaquíes Valleys in the far north of Argentina have recently met with success. The vine is highly productive and is just under ten percent of all white grape plantings, however as a varietal, it made up almost 20 percent of all white wine sold in Argentina in 2008. The Salta region in northwest Argentina is particularly noted for its Torrontés as the grape thrives in cold dry, windswept conditions.
*History and relation to other grapes*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mission_grapes,_by_Hayward_&_Muzzall.jpg
DNA evidence suggest that the Mission grape _(seen here in a late 19th-century photo growing in California)_ is one of the parents of Torrontés.
Recent research using DNA profiling has shown that the different Torrontés are genetically closely related but distinct grape varieties, and that Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, and Torontel (also known as Moscatel Amarillo) are all separate crossings of Mission (originally reported as Criolla Chica) and Muscat of Alexandria.[5][6][7] Torrontés Mendocino was found to probably be a crossing of Muscat of Alexandria and another, so far unidentified grape variety.[8] While the Muscat-like qualities of the Torrontés varieties meant that a relationship to Muscat of Alexandria had been expected, the presence of Mission or Criolla Chica in the pedigree was unexpected to the researchers.[9]
For many years it was believed that the Torrontés of South America was the same variety as the Torrontés grape from Galicia in Spain, also known as Albillo Mayor. This widespread belief was due, in part, to the frequent migration waves of Galician workers that have immigrated to Argentina throughout its history.[2] Indeed, even wine expert Jancis Robinson, noted as much in her 1986 book on the world's grape varieties.[1] However, recent DNA evidence shows that there is probably no direct relationship between the Argentine and Spanish Torrontés varieties[10] and more recent editions of Robinson's wine books acknowledge the new findings.[2]
There is also a less common red wine grape called Torrontés, which is also known under the synonyms Tarrantes and Turrundos.[11]
*Wine regions[*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argentine_provinces_growing_Torrontes.jpg
The provinces of Argentina that grow the most Torrontés. Torrontés Riojano is most widely grown in La Rioja (red) and Salta (orange). Torrontés Sanjuanino is most widely grown in the San Juan province (yellow) while Torrontés Mendocino is most widely grown in the Rio Negro province (blue).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Argentina_torrontes.jpg
An Argentinian Torrontés.
Torrontés is grown throughout Argentina and its acreage is steadily increasing. Part of its increase in numbers comes from the increase in Argentine wine exportation where the grape has found considerable success in the United States, United Kingdom and aboard but also from a better understanding and identification of the different Torrontés varieties that allow for better accounting of plantings. For most of its history (including into the late 20th century) Torrontés lagged behind Pedro Giménez and Ugni blanc among white grape varieties in Argentina.[2] But by the early 21st century, declining plantings in those two varieties and the growing popularity of Torrontés allowed it to surpass them and become Argentina's most widely planted white variety where it continued to be as of 2008.[4]
The different Torrontés varieties have developed niche in different areas of Argentina. Torrontés Riojano is widely grown in the La Rioja and Salta provinces of northern Argentina and is, in fact, the single most widely planted variety (both red and white) in La Rioja. In Salta, the grape is often planted in high altitude, sandy vineyards that are often more than 1,600 meters (5,200 feet) above sea level. Here, the harsh growing conditions allow the variety to attain high acidity and assertive flavors.[4]
In the arid San Juan province, Torrontés Sanjuanino is found but is planted to a much less significant amount than Torrontés Riojano. Torrontés Mendocino is, by far, the least widely planted variety and is mostly found in the southern province of Rio Negro.[2]
*Outside of Argentina[*
Torrontés is grown in Chile, however, the exact number of plantings (and of which variety) are not completely known. In 1996, Jancis Robinson noted that there were several hundred hectares of _Torontel_ grown but some of these plantings may actually be the Galician variety. Additionally, Torrontés is known in Chile often under the synonym _Moscatel de Austria_ (believed to be Torrontés Sanjuanino).[2]
According to wine expert Oz Clarke, most plantings of Torrontés in Chile is Torrontés Riojano and the grape is primarily used in the production of Chilean brandy wine known as _pisco_.[3]
*Spanish Torrontés[edit]*
While DNA evidence shows that there is probably no relationship between the Galician variety of Torrontés and the South American variety, consumers may still see Spanish wine labeled as Torrontés from the Galician wine region of Ribeiro as well as other _Denominación de Origens_ in such as the Gran Canaria of the Canary Islands (most likely the Terrantez variety of Madeira[4]), Montilla-Moriles and Madrid.[3]
*Wine style[*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cafayate_vineyard.jpg
Torrontés growing in the Cafayate vineyard of the Salta province.
According to wine expert Jancis Robinson, Torrontés has the capability of producing wines of high quality, but its success is dependent on the skill and care of the winemaking process, particularly in maintaining suitable acid levels to balance the wine. At its most ideal, Robinson notes, Torrontés are _"wines for early drinking that are not too heavy, are high in acidity, and are intriguingly aromatic in a way reminiscent of but not identical to Muscat."_[2] But poorer made examples can come across as bitter and excessively alcoholic.[4]
Wine expert Oz Clarke, also notes the dependency on careful vinification for the quality of Torrontés but also notes that the size of the harvest yield can also play a substantial role. While the aroma of Torrontés is often associated with Muscat, Clarke notes that many examples can be very similar to Gewürztraminer with subtle spice notes mixed with the floral bouquet of the wine. Clarke also notes that the wine tends not to age very well and is often consumed within a year of its vintage date.[3]


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

racking and rolling....................


----------



## corinth

Hi Joe,
I was wondering. Of all the kits you have done, both inexpensive and more expensive, which kit do you believe came out the best.
I know that is not a simple question to ask so you can sub-divide it how ever you like.

The more difficult question may be ,how would I find them in your threads?

Thanks you,
Corinth


----------



## joeswine

THERE to many to count, never made a bad AMARONE,SANGIOVESE OR VIOGNIER, blending combination with fruit and other enhancers is my style and have metaled coast to coast with everything from peach to raspberry to blackberry wines, every basic white Varity you can think of my Sauvé is excellent and so is my SANGRIA, so you see I'm all over the place with wines and have very little dislikes and that's because I make them _mine_. I can't seam to make a excellent blueberry wine and I have tried many times, they come out okay but not with that spot on feel.

 AS far as finding them in my files I wish there was away I could PM your specific one to you but I don't think we can using this format, is there???


----------



## corinth

Hi Joe,

I asked about refining a search and the reply I received was that it would be a very difficult thing to do. Not only on this forum but any forum.bummer!
Corinth


----------



## ramfan13

*Hi Joe*

Joe, are you using lime zest for the torrentes.
I am getting ready to start a pinot grigio. Never did one before. I used grapefruit zest in a riesling per your suggestion and turned out great. 
Any suggestions on a pinot grigio. Thinking about adding golden raisins and then some sort of fruit zest in secondary, but not sure what kind for Pinot. Would you think lime, lemon, grapefruit, not sure. Also, do you use tannin at all for the white kits. i have been using tannin on reds, but not sure about whites. Thanks Joe.

John


----------



## Enologo

joeswine said:


> THERE to many to count, never made a bad AMARONE,SANGIOVESE OR VIOGNIER, blending combination with fruit and other enhancers is my style and have metaled coast to coast with everything from peach to raspberry to blackberry wines, every basic white Varity you can think of my Sauvé is excellent and so is my SANGRIA, so you see I'm all over the place with wines and have very little dislikes and that's because I make them _mine_. I can't seam to make a excellent blueberry wine and I have tried many times, they come out okay but not with that spot on feel.
> 
> AS far as finding them in my files I wish there was away I could PM your specific one to you but I don't think we can using this format, is there???



Joe do have a good recipe for Sangria. Everyone raves about my wines except my wife she likes Costco Sangria go figure.


----------



## corinth

Hi Joe
1. You might consider omitting the pictures and refer to the standard list of items needed and post them on the first page.

2. If you could find where certain types of wine were posted(thread number)and refer to them or if someone who did take notes and put those together in a format such as word or pdf and make an attachment for others to down load.


Corinth


----------



## joeswine

*ramfan 13*

I would add the zest of one lemon to the mix in the secondary or 1 month before bottling, don't bother with tannins on this one not called for ,just crisp clean finish .


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

from the top...........................


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

Torrontés in the flow continued..


----------



## joeswine

*Basic wine chemistry*

WHILE, were waiting to finish the Torrontés lets talk chemistry basics......a partnership between science and nature.
Basic Wine Chemistry​*Chaptalization *is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape developed by the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal, for whom it was named. Contrary to popular belief, this process does not make the wine sweeter but only artificially inflates the alcohol content. Additionally, the sugar in chaptalized wine cannot be tasted. 
*Potassium Metabisulfite* is a common wine or must additive, where it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as potent antioxidant, protecting both the color, and delicate flavors of wine. 
Typical dosage is ¼ tsp potassium metabisulfite, per 6 gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation, and ½ tsp per 6 gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling. 
Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution. 
_*Potassium Sorbate*_ is used to inhibit molds, and yeasts in wine. Also known affectionately as "wine stabilizer", potassium sorbate produces sorbic acid when added to wine. It serves two purposes. When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, potassium sorbate will continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation. When a wine is sweetened before bottling, potassium sorbate is used to prevent refermentation when used in conjunction with potassium metabisulfite. It is primarily used with sweet wines, sparkling wines and some hard cider but may be added to table wines which exhibits difficulty in maintaining clarity after fining.


----------



## beano

corinth said:


> Hi Joe
> 1. You might consider omitting the pictures and refer to the standard list of items needed and post them on the first page.
> 
> 2. If you could find where certain types of wine were posted(thread number)and refer to them or if someone who did take notes and put those together in a format such as word or pdf and make an attachment for others to down load.
> 
> 
> Corinth



I agree. I mean no offence. Seems like I'm looking at the same thing again and again and its hard to glean any info this way. I feel your knowledge is key, however, the way you present it, it is sometimes hard understand. Sometimes less is better. Just me and I truely hope you are not offended, as I have followed your threads and enjoy reading and learning from them.


Regards, Beano Joe


----------



## joeswine

*How things work*

here's how it works for me.all my threads are in a pdf format,about 80 of them (*no way for me to* *separate them out ) so it becomes a running blog.,*when i first start a thread lets say *sangiovese*,the wine process itself is in phases,onces i have all the phases done there compressed into a file,all along i get questions on how to?when did you put?how much?can you use this instead of that.
thats when i start to repost for certain requests- via pm's -so that i can reinforce the show and tells,(a pictures worth a thousand words)and it also lets others who have not seen the thread a chance to visit. Or revisit ,if at any time your confused just ask me ,*where are you*?and i will either reply (pm) or reconstruct the process on the thread until it's completed.yes it does become very repetitive but that is the way i instruct,*sorry if it* *confuses you.corthin also understands AND AS OF TODAY THERE ARE 1160 PM'S so it does get complex, I agree..*


----------



## joeswine

*Basic wine chemistry*

KNOWING THE BASIC WINE CHEMISTRY...
Basic Wine Chemistry​Chaptalization is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape developed by the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal, for whom it was named. Contrary to popular belief, this process does not make the wine sweeter but only artificially inflates the alcohol content. Additionally, the sugar in chaptalized wine cannot be tasted. 
*Potassium Metabisulfite* is a common wine or must additive, where it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as potent antioxidant, protecting both the color, and delicate flavors of wine. 
Typical dosage is ¼ tsp potassium metabisulfite, per 6 gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation, and ½ tsp per 6 gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling. 
Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution. 
*Potassium Sorbate* is used to inhibit molds, and yeasts in wine. Also known affectionately as "wine stabilizer", potassium sorbate produces sorbic acid when added to wine. It serves two purposes. When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, potassium sorbate will continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation. When a wine is sweetened before bottling, potassium sorbate is used to prevent refermentation when used in conjunction with potassium metabisulfite. It is primarily used with sweet wines, sparkling wines and some hard cider but may be added to table wines which exhibits difficulty in maintaining clarity after fining.


----------



## joeswine

*Pacific quartet*

THIS WHITE WINE IS EXCELLENT IN EVERY ASPECT AND SHOULD BE S STANDARD IN YOUR CELLAR.JUST LIKE WE/TRIO BLANCO AND OTHERS THIS ONE SHARES THE SPOT LIGHT ON CRISP,SEMI-DRY AND VIBRANT COMBINE WITH VERY LITTLE TWEAKS IS WAS EASY TO MAKE the FINISH FOLLOW THE FLOW ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## joeswine

*Pacific quartet*

ready for the finish....................


----------



## joeswine

*Pacific quartet*

GO BACK AND REVIEW PACIFIC QUARTET A FINE WINE FOR YOUR CELLAR.....


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

a great white for your collection and enjoyment follow the process and "THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX"


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes in the mix*

PHASE 2...................
*Torrontés* is a white Argentine winegrape variety, producing 

*Torrontés*​

*Grape (Vitis)*​​

*Color of berry skin*
Blanc
*Species*
_Vitis vinifera_
*Also called*
Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, Torrontés Mendocino, Torrontel, and other synonyms
*Notable regions*
Argentina

fresh, aromatic wines with moderate acidity, smooth texture and mouthfeel as well as distinctive peach and apricot aromas on the nose.[1] Three Torrontés varieties exist in Argentina: *Torrontés Riojano*, the most common, *Torrontés Sanjuanino*, and *Torrontés Mendocino*. It is primarily Torrontés Riojano that has received attention for the quality of its wines, and is the variety used for most Argentine wines simply labeled Torrontés.[2]
The three grapes are relatively similar but do have some noticeable differences. Torrontés Riojano and Torrontés Sanjuanino both tend to have large loose bunches of pale grapes while Torrontés Mendocino, however, has smaller, tighter bunches of darker yellow grapes. Torrontés Riojano is the most aromatic of the three, with aromas reminiscent of Muscat and Gewürtztraminer wines. The least aromatic, and least widely planted, is Torrontés Mendocino with the aromatics and plantings of Torrontés Sanjuanino falling in between.[3] All three Argentine Torrontés varieties belong to the _Criollas_ group of grape varieties, which is a term used for presumably American-born cultivars of the European grapevine _Vitis vinifera_.[4]
Around 8,700 hectares (21,000 acres) in Argentina have been planted with Torrontés Riojano, and 4,850 hectares (12,000 acres) with Torrontés Sanjuanino. Plantings in the very high altitudes (1700m+) of the Calchaquíes Valleys in the far north of Argentina have recently met with success. The vine is highly productive and is just under ten percent of all white grape plantings, however as a varietal, it made up almost 20 percent of all white wine sold in Argentina in 2008. The Salta region in northwest Argentina is particularly noted for its Torrontés as the grape thrives in cold dry, windswept conditions.
*History and relation to other grapes*

DNA evidence suggest that the Mission grape _(seen here in a late 19th-century photo growing in California)_ is one of the parents of Torrontés.
Recent research using DNA profiling has shown that the different Torrontés are genetically closely related but distinct grape varieties, and that Torrontés Riojano, Torrontés Sanjuanino, and Torontel (also known as Moscatel Amarillo) are all separate crossings of Mission (originally reported as Criolla Chica) and Muscat of Alexandria.[5][6][7] Torrontés Mendocino was found to probably be a crossing of Muscat of Alexandria and another, so far unidentified grape variety.[8] While the Muscat-like qualities of the Torrontés varieties meant that a relationship to Muscat of Alexandria had been expected, the presence of Mission or Criolla Chica in the pedigree was unexpected to the researchers.[9]
For many years it was believed that the Torrontés of South America was the same variety as the Torrontés grape from Galicia in Spain, also known as Albillo Mayor. This widespread belief was due, in part, to the frequent migration waves of Galician workers that have immigrated to Argentina throughout its history.[2] Indeed, even wine expert Jancis Robinson, noted as much in her 1986 book on the world's grape varieties.[1] However, recent DNA evidence shows that there is probably no direct relationship between the Argentine and Spanish Torrontés varieties[10] and more recent editions of Robinson's wine books acknowledge the new findings.[2]
There is also a less common red wine grape called Torrontés, which is also known under the synonyms Tarrantes and Turrundos.[11]
*Wine regions[*

The provinces of Argentina that grow the most Torrontés. Torrontés Riojano is most widely grown in La Rioja (red) and Salta (orange). Torrontés Sanjuanino is most widely grown in the San Juan province (yellow) while Torrontés Mendocino is most widely grown in the Rio Negro province (blue).

An Argentinian Torrontés.
Torrontés is grown throughout Argentina and its acreage is steadily increasing. Part of its increase in numbers comes from the increase in Argentine wine exportation where the grape has found considerable success in the United States, United Kingdom and aboard but also from a better understanding and identification of the different Torrontés varieties that allow for better accounting of plantings. For most of its history (including into the late 20th century) Torrontés lagged behind Pedro Giménez and Ugni blanc among white grape varieties in Argentina.[2] But by the early 21st century, declining plantings in those two varieties and the growing popularity of Torrontés allowed it to surpass them and become Argentina's most widely planted white variety where it continued to be as of 2008.[4]
The different Torrontés varieties have developed niche in different areas of Argentina. Torrontés Riojano is widely grown in the La Rioja and Salta provinces of northern Argentina and is, in fact, the single most widely planted variety (both red and white) in La Rioja. In Salta, the grape is often planted in high altitude, sandy vineyards that are often more than 1,600 meters (5,200 feet) above sea level. Here, the harsh growing conditions allow the variety to attain high acidity and assertive flavors.[4]
In the arid San Juan province, Torrontés Sanjuanino is found but is planted to a much less significant amount than Torrontés Riojano. Torrontés Mendocino is, by far, the least widely planted variety and is mostly found in the southern province of Rio Negro.[2]
*Outside of Argentina[*
Torrontés is grown in Chile, however, the exact number of plantings (and of which variety) are not completely known. In 1996, Jancis Robinson noted that there were several hundred hectares of _Torontel_ grown but some of these plantings may actually be the Galician variety. Additionally, Torrontés is known in Chile often under the synonym _Moscatel de Austria_ (believed to be Torrontés Sanjuanino).[2]
According to wine expert Oz Clarke, most plantings of Torrontés in Chile is Torrontés Riojano and the grape is primarily used in the production of Chilean brandy wine known as _pisco_.[3]
*Spanish Torrontés[edit]*
While DNA evidence shows that there is probably no relationship between the Galician variety of Torrontés and the South American variety, consumers may still see Spanish wine labeled as Torrontés from the Galician wine region of Ribeiro as well as other _Denominación de Origens_ in such as the Gran Canaria of the Canary Islands (most likely the Terrantez variety of Madeira[4]), Montilla-Moriles and Madrid.[3]
*Wine style[*

Torrontés growing in the Cafayate vineyard of the Salta province.
According to wine expert Jancis Robinson, Torrontés has the capability of producing wines of high quality, but its success is dependent on the skill and care of the winemaking process, particularly in maintaining suitable acid levels to balance the wine. At its most ideal, Robinson notes, Torrontés are _"wines for early drinking that are not too heavy, are high in acidity, and are intriguingly aromatic in a way reminiscent of but not identical to Muscat."_[2] But poorer made examples can come across as bitter and excessively alcoholic.[4]
Wine expert Oz Clarke, also notes the dependency on careful vinification for the quality of Torrontés but also notes that the size of the harvestyield can also play a substantial role. While the aroma of Torrontés is often associated with Muscat, Clarke notes that many examples can be very similar to Gewürztraminer with subtle spice notes mixed with the floral bouquet of the wine. Clarke also notes that the wine tends not to age very well and is often consumed within a year of its vintage date.[3]


----------



## grapeman

How long after moving over to the carboys do you leave that much headspace Joe? It seems like an awful lot of airspace there. I like to bring it up to just below the neck. It will be OK for a short period because of the degassing of the newly fermented wine, but as the gas levels decrease it increases the risk of oxidation.


----------



## joeswine

*It's all in the ???????*

once I've moved from the open primary I like to give the wine a chance to expand and settle out usually 1 to 2 weeks max then I'll down size to the proper vessels. MAKE's sense that there is still activity going to happen no matter how small so it pays for me to have total control of the process. HOW are you feeling by the way I hope well.


----------



## geek

I think what Joe does is similar to what WE kits do.They have you moved to carboy once the SG is around 1.010, headspace no issue since the wine is still fermenting. I made a white WE kit recently and the instructions say (even after stabilizing AND racking once the wine is clear) to let the wine for close to a month (even with a considerable head space) to better "polish" the final product (clear even more).


----------



## joeswine

*Geek*

THAT IS CORRECT FOR THE REASONS I STATED ABOVE,WITH A KIT YOU HAVE AMPLE TIME TO PLAN YOUR WORK AND WORK YOUR PLAN WITH THE PROPER TOOLS IN YOUR TOOL BOX HEAD SPACE IS NOT A TRUE PROBLEM IN THE VERY BEGINNING,BUT YOU NEED CONTROL OF YOUR PROCESS.


----------



## joeswine

*Head space*

*LETS TALK HEAD SPACE,* when I make wine I'm always in a primary fermenter and that is always a open food grade bucket, that then sets the stage for the process to get a good start on the fermentation , lots of room for my wine and it's counter parts to interact together along with the oxygen to create a great fermentation without the boil over and plenty of room for me to work .

AFTER THE PRIMARY:
ONCE THE PRIMARY IS COMPLETED, THEN I MOVE TO THE SECONDARY JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE,ONLY THAT'S WHERE I PART COMPANY WITH SOME.
EX: from a six gallon start boil off to a six gallon carboy usually good open head space that then allows the chemical reactions if any to continue until the real secondary start. USUALLY about two weeks later, that's when I decide to re-racked the wine and usually move it down to a five gallon carboy if there is any left it goes into the appropriate container whether its a gallon or a bottle it gets transferred down and that's the end .MY focus is then on the main body of the wine and the PROCESS.
IN THE SECONDARY IS WHERE A LOT OF WINE MAGIC CAN HAPPEN WITH YOUR FPACS AND SUCH,REMEMBER when you add a fpac to the primary you incorporate the two flavor profiles as one ,when you add the fpac to the secondary it becomes a background addition, don't confuse the two with a wine that comes with a foiled fpac that always should go into the secondary that is because your wine is just the base and the fpacs is all your flavor that the *manufacture wants you to taste that is your real profile ,GOT IT! *

*HEAD SPACE, can be a asset or a disaster depending of how you handle it ,I do it this way and always have control over the process.*


----------



## joeswine

*Head space*

GO BACK AND REVIEW HEAD SPACE TELL ME WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE...............


----------



## joeswine

*taking a brake*

taking a break will restart up on APRIL 20th


----------



## joeswine

*Hammonton wine festival*

two days before i left for vacation i entered a very big red and big local competition,mostly red wine drinker and a great variety of whites and some fruits 190 in all at this one and 250 people in PAID attendance,11 professional judges from the department of agriculture and local winery owners,also the second part was the tasting and awards for what is call (*the peoples choice award* ) this is for the 250 who paid to eat and judge each others wine in a_ blind competition_ ,it is a first class wine event_ bar none,_ even through to some a small venue ,here's were i stood in the end .
1ST PLACE PROFESSIONAL JUDGES CHOICE + 3
2ND PLACE PROFESSIONAL JUDGES CHOICE +1
1ST PLACE PEOPLE CHOICE AWARDS + 2
*BEST OF SHOW*........* ALWAYS THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX*

*MY ENTRIES WERE,*
*(COFFEE PORT)(CARAMEL PORT)(STRAWBERRY WINE) (SHIRAZ/VIOGNIER BLEND)(VIOGNIER/RIESLING/ CHENIN BLANC BLEND)*


----------



## Tom

ATTAWAY JOE


----------



## reefman

congrats Joe!


----------



## joeswine

two days before i left for vacation i entered a very big red and big local competition,mostly red wine drinker and a great variety of whites and some fruits 190 in all at this one and 250 people in PAID attendance,11 professional judges from the department of agriculture and local winery owners,also the second part was the tasting and awards for what is call (*the peoples choice award* ) this is for the 250 who paid to eat and judge each others wine in a_ blind competition_ ,it is a first class wine event_ bar none,_ even through to some a small venue ,here's were i stood in the end .​


1ST PLACE PROFESSIONAL JUDGES CHOICE + 3


2ND PLACE PROFESSIONAL JUDGES CHOICE +1


1ST PLACE PEOPLE CHOICE AWARDS + 2


*BEST OF SHOW*........* ALWAYS THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX*​


*MY ENTRIES WERE,*


*(COFFEE PORT)(CARAMEL PORT)(STRAWBERRY WINE) (SHIRAZ/VIOGNIER BLEND)(VIOGNIER/RIESLING/ CHENIN BLANC BLEND)* 






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_Last edited by joeswine; Yesterday at 04:13 PM. _







 


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----------



## Angelina

Congrats! Cheers to you!


----------



## Rocky

Congratulations, Joe! You should have entered that Amarone that you sent me a couple of years ago. That would have been another sure winner.


----------



## Kraffty

Very Nice work Joe. Was that coffee port the one that got Panned at different contest last year?
Mike


----------



## joeswine

*coffee port*

yes is was but I noticed that the overall taste buds from the west coast to the Midwest seam to very different from the east coast, this port has won_* best of*_ *show twice* and professional judges awards all in the eastern contest, yet can do no better then 2ND else where ,but that's judging for you never can tell. that leads me to just stay in this state for competitions it's more cost effective in the long run. I will also try vanadium this year that's very big in Philadelphia.

okay lets take a look at scoring 225 points is perfect ,take a look at the top ten and see how they were scored.

THE first thing you notice is that there is not enough aging time on 90% of the wines any type, that is a deterrent the high end of the scoring 189 points at the low end of the scoring was 171 points not that great a difference is there but look at the aging these winemakers seam to make and send of the out to competitions as a finished product, keep in mind that some of these winemakers are die hard *red makers*.so lets take a look at what scored best, there where 5 semi-dry and 5 sweet, good balance of judging okay?. TOP *FIVE,ONE* DRY AND 4 SEMI SWEET OR SWEET,interesting. Yet on the peoples choice awards, remember this is were the paid attendance votes on wines in a blind tasting ,THE VOTING WAS JUST OPPOSITE EXCEPT FOR THE* COFFEE PORT* which took top honors for the peoples choice I would not have won according to there taste any of the *1ST place judges awards* ,interesting don't you think? These are people who know each others wines well, a tight knit community of red winemakers, great people and a great organization as well, I'll do better next year. *That god for pro-judges.*


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend*

this was a work of pleasure a great blend of to awesome whites and a dash of fruit ,21 days in a_ cold soak_ ,perfect!
follow the process good *wine takes work good-- work results in a great product*
*follow the flow.*


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

THE FLOW WILL MOVE ON...........THIS ONE AND THE DIABLO ROJO...WILL BE IN COMPETITIONS NEXT YEAR.BOTTLING WILL BE SOMETIME IN MAY.


----------



## joeswine

*Party wine kits*

very pleasing to the tasr buds in the summer these are a wine based cocktails thatmy wife nd here fellow lady riding friends at luch after a ride with htere horses.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

*Wineexpert Amarone*​


**UPDATED**​

Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!)
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
· Package #2 (bentonite)
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
· Package #4 (Sorbate)
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· Mesh Straining Bag
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 


UPDATE:​ 
We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone continued*

THE TRICKS THAT I WILL DO TO THIS KIT WILL ALLOW IT TO BE ALL IT CAN BE IN SHORT ORDER,FOLLOW THE PROCESS................IT'S LONG BUT WORTH THR EFFORT.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

I can hardly wait to get my kit of Amarone started especially after reading all your posts !! Thanks for all the small details


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

go back and review the AMARONE process...........................


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

MOVING THE FLOW FORWARD....


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone continued*

*Wineexpert Amarone*​**UPDATED**​Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!) 
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212 
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak 
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Wine thief 
·  Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

UPDATE:​We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## vacuumpumpman

Thanks Joe 

I got my kit and soon will be starting it !!

This particular kit and wine is definitely one of the best wines I have ever tasted !! 

Thanks for all the details !


----------



## sdelli

Joe... Got a question. I am making a batch of Moscato from WineExpert kit. Made a few of them before with great success. It is a very good kit for this brand of wine. I am not a fan but my wife loves the stuff! I was thinking of adding a little sugar when it is time to add the fpack to it. Would this make it sweater or do more damage then good?

Thanks

Sam


----------



## joeswine

*Moscato*

I'VE MADE THIS ALSO STRAIGHT UP IT COMES OUT SWEET EN OUGHT ADD THE SUGAR TO THE PRIMARY AND BOOST THE ABV,THAN IN THE END THE FPAC WILL BE MORE BALANCE OUT .JUST THE WAY I WOULD AND HAVE DONE THIS KIT.


----------



## geek

Joe,

sounds like you use the fpack in secondary to finish fermentation, not to back sweeten it.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

every item goes in the primary...


----------



## Angelina

Hey Joe, I am waiting for my RJ Spagnols En Primeur Amarone and and while waiting I have started reading your post of the Amarone project. Is there anything you would do differently with the RJ Spagnols then what you did with the WE Amarone?


----------



## Boatboy24

@Angelina: I'm not Joe, but FWIW, I took an approach similar to his with my EP Amarone. It came with raisins and skins. I used the skins in primary and raisins in secondary (I racked at 1.000). My starting SG was 1.104, so I didn't chapitalize as Joe does. I estimate the raisin addition gave me another 0.005 in sugar, and using that, I fermented to 15% ABV. It also got barrel time and Tancor Grand Cru tannin.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

BOATBOY 24, that sounds like a good plan to me how is yours so far?RAISINS IN THE SECONDARY IS A GOOD WAY TO GIVE THE WINE MORE DEPTH, in the primary more balance is added, either way works. but you need to pay close attention to the degassing process should be more then normal, tannins in the secondary are especially vital for the wines structure.


----------



## Angelina

Mine will not get barrel time, so I will have to use another option there. When my kit arrives I believe I might need a little hand holding. My inter wine geek is wanting out and my tool box is ready, thank you Joe  I just feel a little intimidated at the same time. This kit is a "big deal" for me. 
Also, I am already trying to think ahead to attempt a "baby amarone" with the leftovers from the amarone kit.


----------



## Boatboy24

joeswine said:


> BOATBOY 24, that sounds like a good plan to me how is yours so far?



Nice so far! You had some when you went to JohnT's last fall for the "Big and Bold" competition. It took a silver at just over a year old.


----------



## joeswine

*boatboy24*

WHERE PLANNING ANOTHER CONTEST THIS YEAR *BIG /BOLD REDS* AND ADDING *WHITES* WHAT SAY YOU????


----------



## Boatboy24

joeswine said:


> WHERE PLANNING ANOTHER CONTEST THIS YEAR *BIG /BOLD REDS* AND ADDING *WHITES* WHAT SAY YOU????



I'll be in.


----------



## Angelina

joeswine said:


> WHERE PLANNING ANOTHER CONTEST THIS YEAR *BIG /BOLD REDS* AND ADDING *WHITES* WHAT SAY YOU????



I might have to be in as well!


----------



## Angelina

I received my Amarone kit today! Here's what it looks like. My first thought was it came with lalvin 1118. This seems like a normal go to for every kit.yes? The metatartaric acid I have no experience with, but I understand that it is used to prevent crystals? I was surprised at how heavy this kit was!

If I pictures are sideways I apologize. Lol I have tried to figure it out but epic fail.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

*ANGELINA*, do you have wine tannins? you'll need some for the secondary at least two table spoons. Yes EC is a _work horse_ and will handle the added abv..do you have simple syrup you'll need 1 quart, for the primary, then with every item you have from the kit your ready to make a outstanding AMARONE. This will take a little work but the effort will be well worth it.Does all your oak go into the primary??it should. WHAT type vessel are you using for the primary,bucket,carboy?


----------



## Angelina

Yes I have wine tannins. I will make the simple syrup this evening. I can put all the oak in the primary. I also have French medium chips if that would be better. Not sure what kind of chips they included.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

CAN you take a ph. reading? if so what you should be looking for is a ph. of 4.0/4.5 not greater when the time comes and a abv. around 14% do you have a hydrometer? I know this sounds fundamental but I have to ask.


----------



## Angelina

Yes I have hydrometer. I also have a brand new vinmetrica 300 but I need to learn how to use it.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

THEN THE GAMES A FOOT.................MY LADY WHEN EVER YOUR READY.........................


----------



## Angelina

I will be ready tomorrow late morning into afternoon, so this Amarone will have my full attention to detail. Simple syrup is prepared.
I will come back with the PH and OG then. Do I need a TA?


----------



## ceeaton

Angelina said:


> Yes I have hydrometer. I also have a brand new vinmetrica 300 but I need to learn how to use it.



You have all the good toys! Thanks for the picture in post #618, it's nice to see what is in a kit you haven't made yet. Watching and learning from both of you.


----------



## Angelina

Thanks Craig! That toy is a little intimidating, but I am determined to figure it out, otherwise it would be a expensive paper weight. 

I wish kit manufacturers would show what's in the kit as well.


----------



## ceeaton

If you get time (from all the transferring of wine from all of those Chilean juice buckets you bought) grab a glass or two of wine and start reading those S300 directions! I'm hoping to get one next year, but this years tax return has been spent. At least I got two spring juice buckets and a few lugs of grapes. Now to save for the fall harvest (I dearly love all my children but I wish they would all go out and get a job and help pay for my growing obsession)!


----------



## Angelina

Here are my readings. Edit: These are pre primary numbers. I wanted to see just what I have number wise from the bag.
PH 3.34
BRIX 30.8
TEMP 68°
OG 1.130


----------



## geek

@Angelina
You have nice toys...

OG 1.030 ?
That doesn't look right, did you mean 1.130 ?


----------



## Angelina

geek said:


> @Angelina
> You have nice toys...
> 
> OG 1.030 ?
> That doesn't look right, did you mean 1.130 ?



Thank you!
Yes, I meant 1.130, good catch!


----------



## geek

how much you paid for that digital refractometer?


----------



## Angelina

I have the hand one, but my eye's are not getting any better these days so I got this one..http://www.piwine.com/cgi-piwine/sb/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*148c4f20af3d50c710744125
I is so easy to use even a caveman could do it!


----------



## ibglowin

Do you realize that works out to ~18.1% ABV if it finishes to dry? 



Angelina said:


> Here are my readings. Edit: These are pre primary numbers. I wanted to see just what I have number wise from the bag.
> PH 3.34
> BRIX 30.8
> TEMP 68°
> OG 1.130


----------



## Angelina

I have not added water yet. These are the numbers straight from the bag. Sorry from the confusion.


----------



## ibglowin

That makes more sense, I saw you talking about Simple Syrup earlier and thought you had mixed it up and added more syrup till you got to 1.13!


----------



## geek

ibglowin said:


> Do you realize that works out to ~18.1% ABV if it finishes to dry?



Maybe Angelina likes rocket fuel...


----------



## joeswine

*Ep amarone*

SHE'LL BE JUST FINE........


----------



## Angelina

Stirring 4L warm water with bentonite


----------



## cmason1957

joeswine said:


> CAN you take a ph. reading? if so what you should be looking for is a ph. of 4.0/4.5 not greater when the time comes and a abv. around 14% do you have a hydrometer? I know this sounds fundamental but I have to ask.



Joe, can you explain the reasoning behind a pH of 4.0/4.5? That seems incredibly high to me. And since this is a kit, why mess with the pH?


----------



## Angelina

Added primary bag to bentonite and adding cool water to the 6 gallon mark.


----------



## Angelina

I rinsed the bag with cool water and added approx 1.5 gallons of spring water to get me to the 6 gallon mark.


----------



## Angelina

No instructions for the rasins were included. I assume these go in the primary as said previously. Does everything go in a bag or no? The instructions say that I will get better color extraction by leaving them loose in the primary. Should I add simple syrup before added everything else to incorporate easier?


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

IT TRADITIONALLY HAS A HIGH PH AND WITH A KIT IT HAS THE ABILITY TO DISSIPATE OVER TIME BALANCED OUT WITH THE TANNINS AND THE RAISINS AND GRAPES THIS WILL MAKE A GREAT SAUCE!!!!!!!!!.................ANGELINA CONTINUE......................IF THE KIT HAS NO DIRECTIONS AS TO WHEN TO ENTER THE_ RAISINS_ THEN FOR YOUR FIRST TIME BENEFIT WILL ENTER THEM IN THE PRIMARY ENTERING THEM IN THE SECONDARY WOULD TAKE A LITTLE MORE TIME AND UNDERSTANDING WHEN OF THE PROCESS,PRIMARY WILL WORK JUST FINE.*THIS TIME.REMEMBER ONCE WE HAVE THE BASE ESTABLISHED THEN WE CAN SET THE ABV. CAPITALIZATION PROCESS........*


----------



## Angelina

Thanks Joe! I think I am just second guessing my self when I shouldn't be. Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*Angelina*

GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Angelina

So I got everything in my primary. The juice, some spring water, to my bag I added two packages of oak chips, skins, and the raisins that came with it. My sg was 1.090 which I raised to 1.096. This should give me about 14% ABV. Temp is 69°. I will pitch the yeast tomorrow.


----------



## cmason1957

I don't think starting with as high a ph as Joe seem to indicate is the right thing to suggest to someone. After fermentation I soul expect the pH to maybe have dropped to 3.6-4.0 and the amount of k meta required at that level is very high. I could see, level starting as high as 3.6, maybe. But not much higher.


----------



## joeswine

*Ph*

A measure of the acidity. The lower the pH#, the higher the acidity. NOTICE THE ABV. ON THIS AMARONE EXCELLENT BALANCE AND ALL AROUND .


----------



## Angelina

I gave my oak chips, raisins and skins a day to soak in that beautiful purple juice. To see if my pH and/or sg levels changed I checked them this afternoon . My PH is now 3.47. Joe I bet that 2005 Amarone is going to be good! Cheers!


----------



## Angelina

Update: my Sg is 1.102, ph 3.47, temp 72° and the yeast has been pitched.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

SO FAR SO GOOD STAY THE COURSE DO YOU HAVE FERMENTATION YET?IF NOT DON'T RUSH IT .STAY THE COURSE


----------



## Angelina

Yes, fermentation has started. Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

nothing like the smell of fermentation in the morning................KEEP GOING MS. A...........


----------



## Angelina

UPDATE: I've been punching down my must twice a day fermentation has been going very strong. I just checked my sg and it is at 1.030 that was quick! It also smells quite amazing, I can definitely see how it might relate to a Amarone.


----------



## Angelina

I took a reading yesterday and it was 1.002, I took a reading today and it is 0.998. It has slowed way down! I'm sure it won't be long before a racking is in order. @Joewine , do you have any thoughts on this Amarone? Btw @vaccumpumpman and Joe, thank you for helping me properly read a triple scale hydrometer. Just when you think you know how to read one, and how to make a calculation, someone comes along and teaches you a new and improved way of looking at your tools, looking outside the box in this case.


----------



## geek

you meant 1.012


----------



## Angelina

Actually I meant 1.002


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

degassing and patients that's the next step. Below is what I think you should expect from what you did so far, go slow and stay the course. DON'T WORRY ABOUT HEADSPACE AT THIS POINT..............YOU'LL BE FINE..


----------



## Angelina

Update: Finally the day has come! I racked the Amarone and it degassed some while pumping over slowly.


----------



## Angelina

picture taken yesterday degassing while racking.


----------



## Angelina

*Amarone EP RJS RECAP*

AMARONE EP RJS RECAP

*DAY ONE*: We santized everything that was to come in contact with our amarone. We checked to make sure we had everything that was included with the kit and anything else we may need to complete the process. we read all the directions first to make sure we had a good understanding. Everything is ready to go so we then can proceed. 
To our fermentor we added bentonite warm water, mixing well to completly desolve. To the benonite mixture we added the large bag of amarone must plus enough pring water to make 6 gallons, stiring vigorously! Taking a OG reading 1.992. We then* capitaized the must* *with simple sryup* to get a reading of *1.102*. We proceeded adding oak chips to a bag along with raisins and the beloved amarone grape skins, then submerged it into the must. We let it rest.


----------



## geek

And now you have all the pictures straight...good job...


----------



## Angelina

*Next step*

We checked the PH 3.47 Temp 69 and the SG was still 1.102. we are ready to pitch the yeast. We are using Lavlin 1118. A day later we have fermentation going strong!! and within a few days temp has gone up and SG has gone down. As fermentation slows down and the temp resides, we are watching not jumping the gun here but letting it finish out to completion. FG 0.994. it is ready to rack to it's secondary home


----------



## Angelina

*Racking to secondary*

RACKING TO SECONDARY

Again, sanitizing everything that comes in contact with the wine! We racked our Amarone from fermentation bucket to secondary carboy with our pump slowly degasing some along the way. The following day we degassed our Amarone a little more. I had to take a little sample for myself and all the hard work I put in it, was the least I could do. Cheers! Did you notice the legs? It has that Amarone flavor I crave. The tannins are there and I suspect they will mellow out with a little aging.

I want to say a special Thank you to two people at this point.

Joe, Thank you so much!!! All though I could have done this kit on my own, I am convinced that doing it so far with the tips you have given me and the skills you are teaching, it is going to be so much better than I could have ever done on my own. The skills I am taking from this experience will serve me for a long time. Cheers!

Steve AIO, Thank you for all the picture editing help lol I'm still learning here too! Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

now let it rest..................keep degassing and let it rest....excellent job it will become very flavorful and smooth ...........till the next phase ....


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry /zinfandel*

*angelina* will return for the bottling phase of her AMARONE until then he's another lady wine maker KATE with a inexpensive kit from AMAZON completed in every way and great for summer tasting..follow her process.................


----------



## geek

That cheapo kit looks good Joe, how does it taste? Short bulk age I assume.


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry /zinfandel*

actually it's a bit on the* sweet side* if I were to make it or she was to make it again I would bring the abv. up to 14% because the fpac is powerful, but that's me for the price you can't touch it, the only thing they don't supply you with is the bottles. A very good kit for someone just starting out without a lot of funds ...bulk aging really not required ,very similar to a ISLAND MIST, kit meant to be consumed young. COST $1.62 per bottle.


----------



## corinth

*blackberry/zinfindel*

Hi Joe,
Where did you get the cornucopia kit from---Amazon?
Most of my requests just say I will be notified?
thanks,
Corinth


----------



## kevinlfifer

Paklab, Just sayin. I've never made the fruit blend kits. I have made 30+ of the wine kits.


----------



## joeswine

*Blackberry /zinfandel*

AMAZON, and yes they are out of stock at the moment...............how is your AMARONE coming along?............................................


----------



## Angelina

It is sitting quietly. I did give my Amarone some thought since we chatted and the flavor is very good, a little light but it did fill my senses with a beautiful Amarone aroma. On the notes I tasted dried plums, spices, and a little wood. It was bitter on the end. The warmth of the alcohol is there but not hot. The acid was present but not high. It has potential!


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

THE WINE SHOULD BE A LITTLE BITTER THAT'S WHAT THE NAME IMPLIES,*BITTER WINE*,AROMA VERY HARD FOR A HOME WINE MAKER TO ESTABLISH IN A WINE OF ANY STYLE,IT'S THE WAY IT IS.IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR TASTE AND TIMING..SO FAR YOUR DOING EXCELLENT..


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz with black CORTHIAN grapes*

excellent base to play with and a good choice of background characters to go as long with the play,follow the process...........


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz with black CORTHIAN grapes*

SECOND PHASE OF THE PROCESS..FOLLOW


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port*

THIS WILLBE MY NEXT BEST OF SHOW  FOLLOW THE PROCESS IT GETS A LITTLE TRICKY WITH THE DIFFERENT SG'S IVE SHOWED YOU BUT TRY TO THINK OF IT AS A 3 PART STEP,IF YOU GET CONFUSSED NOT TO WORRY ...JUST ASK,THIS IS TRULY A TASTY KIT..FOLLOW MY FLOW TO ANOTHER WINNER.... 

1. BLACK BERRY PORT: THIS KIT HAS ALL THE PROPERITIES OF THE COFFE AND CARAMEL WINE PORT KITS THE DIFFERENCE IS IT’S A WINE EXPERTS AND NOT A CRU...ALL THE SAME PLAYERS ARE INVOLVED, HERE IS WHAT ARE CHANGES WILL BE:​

1. CAPITOLIZE WITH SIMPLE SYRUP RATHER THAN, THEIR DEXTROUSE IS EQUAL TO 1 QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP.
2. THE ADDITION OF OUR OWN *FRESH BLACKBERRY* FPAC TO THE SECONDARY

3.THE ADDITION OF 1 TABLE SPOON OF *WINE TANNINS*TO THE SECONDARY FOR BALANCE *PHASE 2:* CAPITALIZATION, ONE QUART OF SIMPLE SYRUP AT THIS POINT DO NOT RACK LET THE YEAST AND SYRUP WORK TOGETHER FOR AT LEAST 3 TO 4 DAYS,STILL IN A OPEN BUCKET,BE READY TO MOVE TO GLASS BY THEN.

4.WE REMOVED THE PORT FROM THE BUCKET AND HAD MORE THEN NEEDED BY ½ GALLON .AFTER EXTRACTION OF SOME SO I COULD WORK THE PORT AND ADD THE CHEMS AND FINING AGENT AND GIVE AGOOD STIR, I WAS ABLE TO TOP OFF WITH THE BASE PORT LEFT OVERS, WITH THE ½ GALLON LEFT I WILL MAKE A BLACK BERRY CELLO., NOW WILL LET TIME WORK ON THE PRODUCT IT TASTED EXCELLENT AT THIS STAGE IT CAN ONLY GET BETTER…


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port phase two*

THE PROCESS IS LENGTHY DO TO THE DETAILS NEEDED IN CAPITALIZING IN THE PRIMARY....


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port phase three*

STILL WORK TO DO ........THIS WILL BE DELIOUSES


----------



## joeswine

*Black berry port*

WHILE THIS KIT IS SITTING GO BACK AND REVIEW THE PROCESS AND SEE WHAT CHANGES I MADE TO MAKE THIS MY* NEXT BEST OF SHOW*..

 WHILE WERE WAITING LETS LOOK AT A GREAT RED/WHITE COMBINATION
 SHIRAZ /VIOGNIER...A TRULY SPECIAL WINE FOR ANY OCCASION


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz /viognier*

Shiraz VIOGNIER continued


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz /viognier*

Shiraz /VIOGNIER continued.........


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend*

talk About a mouth feel and flavor this is a outstanding kit to do and i will do this one again, along the *shiraz/viognier* again.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

SEMILLON/SAVIGNON A BEAUTIFUL BALANCE OF TEXTURE AND TASTE FOLLOW THE FLOW..


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

HAVING FUN YET?????


----------



## ibglowin

Joe,

If you bumped up your SG to 1.100 as it appears you did and this wine finished out to 0.994 (dry). Your final ABV will be 14.1%, not 13%.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

close enough for home wine making,,don't you think? being above the 12% abv. Is a good thing especially with good balance and not being"_*hot*_"


----------



## ibglowin

OK so that statement made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever! 

At 14.1% that will be a screaming HOT white wine in my opinion and will also be completely *out of balance*. Again just my opinion but that is just way too high ABV for a white wine.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend*

Remember the* fpac* I made for the batch that is the *equalizer*, but to understand the process you first have to try my process, it works. There are a lot of things I do that people _STATE_ shouldn't work or don't have a barring of the process,. But they never tried the process to really understand. It's just my way. As I stated it has great taste and texture with good balance and on *March 22nd next year* I will win a *pro-judges* choice award for it ,and that you can take to the bank.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo*

DIABLO ROJO, A GREAT WINE STYLE TO BE CREATIVE WITH FOLLOW ME AND THE PROCESS AND SEE WHAT THIS WINE KIT CAN REALLY TURN OUT TO BE ,BOLD ,DEEP AND TASTY..FOLLOW THE FLOW.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo cont.*

stage two on the flow ,any questions?

DIABLO ROJO; THIS OFF, DRY AND DARK PURPLE IN COLOR BLEND ,NOISE OF BLACKBERRY JAM MINGLED WITH CREATIVE VANILLA AROMAS AND A TOUCH OF TOBACCO AND A BRANDY STYLE FINISH YET IT IS A WINE ALL THE WAY.

SOUNDS LIKE MOUTHFUL. WHERE GONNA MAKE IT JUST THAT. OUR TWEAKS TO THIS KIT WILL BE AS FOLLOWS.

WERE GOING TO CHANGE THE YEAST ,TWO *EC 1118* THIS IS DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE FLUCTUATIONS IN OUR WORKSPACE. SECONDLY, GOING TO ADD A *SMOKED WOODEN STAVE* ALONG WITH OAK TANNINS IN THE SECONDARY. WE ARE GOING TO USE A BELLY BAND DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE IN OUR WORKSPACE. THE OAK STAVE WILL GO IN THE PRIMARY, THE OAK _TANNINS WILL GO IN THE SECONDARY_ AND LONG WITH A *HANDFUL OF FRESH BLACKBERRIES JUST SQUEEZED. THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF FPAC* JUST A HANDFUL OF BERRIES. NOTHING TO OVERPOWER 
BERRIES. NOTHING TO OVERPOWER NOTHING TO OVERWHELM JUST A TOUCH OF BLACKBERRY DEPTH. REMEMBER, THIS IS STILL A ROJO AND THE STYLE IS BOLD AND FRUITY. WE MAY ALSO BRING UP THE ABV. TO 1.14. THIS ONE SHOULD TURN OUT TO BE A MOUTHFUL... FOLLOW THE FLOW..

FINISH; great flavor, fruits and woods intertwined medium body and A smooth finish. If I WOULD HAVE CHANGED ANYTHING IT WOULD BOOSTED UP THE PH A LITTLE MORE.,LET SEE WHAT AGEING WILL DO FOR THIS BEAUTY.


----------



## joeswine

*Basic wine chemistry*

A TIME TO REMEMBER??????WHAT IS THAT USED FOR ,WHEN TO USE AND WHY??
*Basic Wine Chemistry *​ 
*Chaptalization* is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape developed by the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal, for whom it was named. Contrary to popular belief, this process does not make the wine sweeter but only artificially inflates the alcohol content. Additionally, the sugar in chaptalized wine cannot be tasted. 
*Potassium Metabisulfite* is a common wine or must additive, where it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as potent antioxidant, protecting both the color, and delicate flavors of wine. 
Typical dosage is ¼ tsp potassium metabisulfite, per 6 gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation, and ½ tsp per 6 gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling. 
Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution. 
*Potassium Sorbate* is used to inhibit molds, and yeasts in wine. Also known affectionately as “wine stabilizer”, potassium sorbate produces sorbic acid when added to wine. It serves two purposes. When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, potassium sorbate will continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation. When a wine is sweetened before bottling, potassium sorbate is used to prevent refermentation when used in conjunction with potassium metabisulfite. It is primarily used with sweet wines, sparkling wines and some hard cider but may be added to table wines which exhibits difficulty in maintaining clarity after fining.


----------



## joeswine

*Toms wine kits*

LETS REVIEW THE ENEXPESIVE WINE KITS TOM MADE AND ALSO SEE WHAT THE FINIAL TASTE OUTCOME WAS.FOLLOE THE 
TOM AND I ARE GOING TO MAKE TWO INEXPENSIVE WINE KITS FROM *FONTANA WINE THESE* ARE 4 WEEKS KITS SOMETHING TO PLAY AROUND WITH AND TO EXPERIMENT WITH AS WELL.WERE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING FANCY WITH THEM JUST WANT TO MAKE THESE CHEAP KITS SO THAT WHEN THEY FINISH THEY TASTE GOOD,WE’LL SEE.
1. SHORTEN THE VOLUMN FROM A 6 TO A 5 GALLON
2. CAPITALIZE EACH TO A STARTING SG OF 1.10 
3. ADDED OAK TO BOTH ONLY/ONE CAME WITH OAK
4. IN THE SECONDARY WILL ADD 1 TABLE SPOON OF OAK TANNINS.

THE IDEA OF *SHORTENNING* THE VOLUMN WAS TO INCREASE THE DENSITY OF THE BASE, AS IT WAS IF WE WERE TO MAKE A 6-GALLON BATCH AS DIRECTED THE WINE WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY THIN AND VERY LITTLE ALCOHOL. THE INEXPENSIVE KITS THAT STATE FOR 6 GALLONS IN MY OPPION CAN BE MADE INTO A 5 GALLON BATCH WITH OUT SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES UNLESS THEY HAVE A FPAC FROM THE MANUFACTURE.

THIS SHOULD BE A SHORT PROCESS AND MaYBE,JUST MAY BE A WAY TO CURVE THOSE HIGHER WINE KIT COSTS???
Well so far so good no problem on the *consistence or taste* of the product going into the _secondary,_ we’ve added *wine tannins* and a *cup of oak *again this time to the secondary, we’ll degas for the next week every other day take a ph reading see were where at then will add the chems and start the fining process. _There were no difficulties with the volume reduction_ on the contrary it gave the wine more body and flavor for a 4 week wine kit, not bad so far at all. Now if this had an fpac okay don’t mess with the volume, but it didn’t sometimes the *process isn’t always just right*, we as wine makers have the ability to adjust to our needs…follow the flow.
FLOW...


----------



## joeswine

*Toms wine kits continued*

FOLLOW THE FLOW....


----------



## joeswine

*Toms wine kits continued*

ALMOST DONE FOLLOW THE FLOW..........


----------



## Tom

I have since bottled both wines. Now the wife and daughter are my tasters. Both said it had something that the other juices didn't. (more alcohol) I reminded them I boosted the gravity and made a 5 gallon instead of the usual 6. For a 28 week wine it was drunk shortly after bottling. I have since bought 3 more varieties soon to be started. The profiles of these wines was SPOT ON. Pretty hard for an inexpensive kit. Wife liked the Cab/ Sauv better that the juice wines.


----------



## joeswine

*KATE'S CHEAP CHARDONNAY continued*

kate made this chardonnay and with a few tweaks came out very nice .follow the flow..


----------



## joeswine

*KATE'S CHEAP CHARDONNAY continued*

EASY AND FUN TO PLAY WITH,FOLLOW THE TWEAK

Katie’s Chardonnay Kit​
It’s been a while since I’ve created a post of my own; I’ve been primarily helping Joeswine with the upkeep of his posts. I wanted to share this kit with everyone because I’ve tried it before and know that it turns out pretty awesome. 
This is a Fontana Wine kit I recently purchased off-line. This traditionally is a 6-gallon kit but I are not making it like so. I am making this a 5-gallon kit as to keep the flavor and better balance between alcohol and wine with the contribution of the one cup of oak (which is traditional to a Chardonnay). 
*Ingredients:*
These are all the basic ingredients that came with the kit. Please see the pictures attached. 

*What additional changes I’ve made:*
-Changing the end volume of the wine from 6 gallons to 5 gallons
-adding the cup of oak
-At the end, by reducing the volume of concentrate, we increased the ABV without even trying. 
-Personal preference: I will be adding zest of 1 grapefruit before racking. This will pick up the PH and give it a clean, crisp finish. 
See the pictures for the process. J
WERE NEARRING THE FINIS WE LEFT OUR WINE IN THE COLD SINK FOR 14 DAYS AND IT CLEARED QUIT NICELY, WE KNEW RACKING BACK TO A ONE MIX CONTAINER WOULD CAUSE US TO HAVE TO RECLEAR ONE MORE TIME; THE WORK IS NOT A BIG DEAL WHAT IS, *THE FINISH*.

BEFORE I RACKED I TASTED THIS WINE AND LIKE I THOUGHT, THE WHITES SHOULD GO INTO A 5 GALLONS PROCESS ALSO.JUST LIKE THE REDS, THE WHITES EVEN WITH ALL THE SOLIDS WOULD HAVE NOT (IMOP) HAVE HAD MUCH TASTE, BRINGING THEM DOWN TO 5 GALLONS GAVES THESE KITS LIFE AND WITH THE SMALL AMOUNT OF TWEAKS THAT WE DID, WAS JUSTFIDE .SO WHAT WAS THE RESULTS??
SMOOTH UP FRONT WITH DECIENT FRUIT NOT OVER WHELMING BUT STILL THERE, CRISP ACIDITY WITH A CLEAN FINISH, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT OUR YIELD WAS WHEN WE BOTTLE AND OUR COST PER BOTTLE.
KATES PROCESS......................


----------



## joeswine

*KATE'S CHEAP CHARDONNAY continued*

THIS IS THE LAST PHASE FOLLOW THE FLOW TO BOTTLING,NICE KIT FOR THE PRICE.REMEMBER IT'S JUST A BASE FOR USE 

Katie’s Chardonnay Kit​
It’s been a while since I’ve created a post of my own; I’ve been primarily helping Joeswine with the upkeep of his posts. I wanted to share this kit with everyone because I’ve tried it before and know that it turns out pretty awesome. 
This is a Fontana Wine kit I recently purchased off-line. This traditionally is a 6-gallon kit but I are not making it like so. I am making this a 5-gallon kit as to keep the flavor and better balance between alcohol and wine with the contribution of the one cup of oak (which is traditional to a Chardonnay). 
*Ingredients:*
These are all the basic ingredients that came with the kit. Please see the pictures attached. 

*What additional changes I’ve made:*
-Changing the end volume of the wine from 6 gallons to 5 gallons
-adding the cup of oak
-At the end, by reducing the volume of concentrate, we increased the ABV without even trying. 
-Personal preference: I will be adding zest of 1 grapefruit before racking. This will pick up the PH and give it a clean, crisp finish. 
See the pictures for the process. J
WERE NEARRING THE FINIS WE LEFT OUR WINE IN THE COLD SINK FOR 14 DAYS AND IT CLEARED QUIT NICELY, WE KNEW RACKING BACK TO A ONE MIX CONTAINER WOULD CAUSE US TO HAVE TO RECLEAR ONE MORE TIME; THE WORK IS NOT A BIG DEAL WHAT IS, *THE FINISH*.

BEFORE I RACKED I TASTED THIS WINE AND LIKE I THOUGHT, THE WHITES SHOULD GO INTO A 5 GALLONS PROCESS ALSO.JUST LIKE THE REDS, THE WHITES EVEN WITH ALL THE SOLIDS WOULD HAVE NOT (IMOP) HAVE HAD MUCH TASTE, BRINGING THEM DOWN TO 5 GALLONS GAVES THESE KITS LIFE AND WITH THE SMALL AMOUNT OF TWEAKS THAT WE DID, WAS JUSTFIDE .SO WHAT WAS THE RESULTS??
SMOOTH UP FRONT WITH DECIENT FRUIT NOT OVER WHELMING BUT STILL THERE, CRISP ACIDITY WITH A CLEAN FINISH, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT OUR YIELD WAS WHEN WE BOTTLE AND OUR COST PER BOTTLE.

Katie’s Chardonnay Kit​
It’s been a while since I’ve created a post of my own; I’ve been primarily helping Joeswine with the upkeep of his posts. I wanted to share this kit with everyone because I’ve tried it before and know that it turns out pretty awesome. 
This is a Fontana Wine kit I recently purchased off-line. This traditionally is a 6-gallon kit but I are not making it like so. I am making this a 5-gallon kit as to keep the flavor and better balance between alcohol and wine with the contribution of the one cup of oak (which is traditional to a Chardonnay). 
*Ingredients:*
These are all the basic ingredients that came with the kit. Please see the pictures attached. 

*What additional changes I’ve made:*
-Changing the end volume of the wine from 6 gallons to 5 gallons
-adding the cup of oak
-At the end, by reducing the volume of concentrate, we increased the ABV without even trying. 
-Personal preference: I will be adding zest of 1 grapefruit before racking. This will pick up the PH and give it a clean, crisp finish. 
See the pictures for the process. J
WERE NEARRING THE FINIS WE LEFT OUR WINE IN THE COLD SINK FOR 14 DAYS AND IT CLEARED QUIT NICELY, WE KNEW RACKING BACK TO A ONE MIX CONTAINER WOULD CAUSE US TO HAVE TO RECLEAR ONE MORE TIME; THE WORK IS NOT A BIG DEAL WHAT IS, *THE FINISH*.

BEFORE I RACKED I TASTED THIS WINE AND LIKE I THOUGHT, THE WHITES SHOULD GO INTO A 5 GALLONS PROCESS ALSO.JUST LIKE THE REDS, THE WHITES EVEN WITH ALL THE SOLIDS WOULD HAVE NOT (IMOP) HAVE HAD MUCH TASTE, BRINGING THEM DOWN TO 5 GALLONS GAVES THESE KITS LIFE AND WITH THE SMALL AMOUNT OF TWEAKS THAT WE DID, WAS JUSTFIDE .SO WHAT WAS THE RESULTS??
SMOOTH UP FRONT WITH DECIENT FRUIT NOT OVER WHELMING BUT STILL THERE, CRISP ACIDITY WITH A CLEAN FINISH, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT OUR YIELD WAS WHEN WE BOTTLE AND OUR COST PER BOTTLE.

Katie’s Chardonnay Kit​


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's cheap chardonnay*


 go back and review kate's cheap chardonnay and see what you can do with this inexpensive kit


----------



## Tom

Just bottled my Pino Gris. Cleared much better than Kates chardonay.


----------



## joeswine

*Kate's cheap chardonnay*

how's that hers is crystal clear???


----------



## Tom

Cleared by itself. didn't need to chill it.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend*

this is one excellent blend a corner stone in anyones cellar,bar none.follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Semillon/sauvignon blanc blend cont.*

FOLLOW THE FLOW....


----------



## joeswine

*Moscato*

this is a wine that can stand on it's own no matter how you finish it,either sweet as a desert wine or semi dry this is excellent to have in your cellar,follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Moscato continued*

STILL MORE FLOW TO COME,STAY AWAKE.


----------



## joeswine

*Moscato continued*

JUST A LITTLE LEFT...
*White Moscato*​Here’s the process*:*
Add bentonite to the primary fermenter with ½ gallon warm water and stir it up until dissolved 
Open up the large juice bag and dump it into the primary bucket
See the “musk” left over? Rinse that out w/ a little water. You don’t want to waste this, it’s extra yeast food and flavor!
Stir up everything in the bucket until well mixed up, then take your Specific Gravity (SG) reading. Ours reads 1.070. 
Sprinkle the yeast on top and let sit, don’t stir. We are using Lalvin 1118. Moscato typically does not have oak. We are adding oak tannins and white California Sun-Maid raisins into the secondary to build up the mouth feel. (This we will show in pictures and text later on in the process.)
Now you cover the bucket with a towel so that your yeast can breath but so that dust and debris do not fall into your bucket. (If you have small children, I recommend putting a lid on it w/ a hole so that it can breath. Children and buckets of liquid do not mix.)

Now that we are done our primary fermentation and our Moscato is dry (our SG read 1.012, sorry I did not take a picture. FYI: This reading was right on target with the manufacture- Winexpert. We are right where we need to be) it is time for secondary fermentation.
Notice all the white, rehydrated raisins floating on top? We are going to strain them off the top and then rack this moscato down to a 6 gallon carboy. 
Now it’s time for stabilizing. The kit came with a packet of potassium sorbate, K-Meta, and Chitosan for clearing. Add the packets of sorbate and K-met first, then the clearing agent. Then give your carboy a good stir. 
Next, we add nitrogen gas to the carboy. (This is not necessary but I do it as a precaution. ) Now the hard part.. waiting..
As always, clean up your carboy right away so that it doesn’t get funky. 
Stay tuned. The next post for this Winexperts Moscato kit is to check to see how clear it is. If it needs more clearing, We will apply more Super Kleer as required. (My preference of clearing agents.) Once it’s clear then it’s time for the F-Pak that came with the kit. Once it is clear and the F-pak is applied then we bottle, cork, and label. Again, the post for this (with pictures) is forth-coming. Cheers!


----------



## joeswine

*Using black corthian grapes*

THESE ARE A CHAMPAIGN GRAPE AND ARE EXCELLENT AS A PARTNER WITH RED WINES,VERY SMALL AND TASTY.DRIED THEIR ALSO KNOW AS ZANTES CURRENTS.

bunchgrapes.com
Black Corinth Grapes

*Black Corinth* (aka Zante Currant, the Champagne grape, etc.). An ancient grape, probably of Greek origin. While the main variety is black, there are red and also white forms of the grape, though they are less common than the black form. One of only a very few parthenocarpic grapes in commerce. Other grapes are seedless because the seeds start to develop, then abort. Parthenocarpic grapes have no seed development at all. Black Corinth has the smallest berries of all seedless grapes and must be sprayed with hormone, or have the vine girdled for the berries to set evenly and have any size to them at all. Without treatment, the berries are mostly pinhead size. Very susceptible to powdery mildew, even for a vinifera grape. In actuality, there is an old American grape already named "Champagne" that is a very coarse, harsh tasting labrusca grape. Prune Black Corinth to canes for best production.

© Lon J. Rombough, B.S., M.S., ATM. · bunchgrapes.com · All Rights Reserved.​


----------



## joeswine

*Chilean pino noir*

FOLLOW THE FLOW.....
*Wineexpert Cabernet Sauvignon*​*endations of what type of wine you would like to learn* 
Here is a kit I purchased from a local homebrew shop, Richland General Store. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Cabernet Sauvignon. This kit has the following included. 

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Packet of Red Star Premier Cuvee Yeast
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Sorbate 
· Package of Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· 2 Packages of Premium Oak 
*We are going to reconstruct this kit and take it from a medium grade kit to a top-of-the-line kit by adding the following:*

Corinth black grapes
Powdered Oak wine tannins
American Oak Cubes
 
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Wine thief 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Wash your hands!
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· *Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. * 
· We took a PI reading and it came out 3.6.
· Now, here comes all that oak! We are adding the 2 packets of Premium Oak Cubes and 2 TBSP’s of the powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! We then add the packet of Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days.
·  
*Secondary Fermentation:*
*Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. **

**We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). *

*UPDATE:*​*We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recomm how to make.*


----------



## joeswine

*Chilean pino noir*

THERE'S MORE TO THE FLOW THEN MEETS THE EYE.DID YOU NOTICED THE PLUMS NICE ADDITION,REALLY..


----------



## joeswine

*Wine expert's cabernet sauvignon*

follow the flow..................BLACK CORTHIAN GRAPES ARE A GREAT FLAVOR ENHANCER WITH MOST FRUITY REDS.


----------



## joeswine

*Basic wine chemistry*

things to remember ,what ,how ,why and when to move through the process with chems
*Basic Wine Chemistry *​ 
*Chaptalization* is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape developed by the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal, for whom it was named. Contrary to popular belief, this process does not make the wine sweeter but only artificially inflates the alcohol content. Additionally, the sugar in chaptalized wine cannot be tasted. 
*Potassium Metabisulfite* is a common wine or must additive, where it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as potent antioxidant, protecting both the color, and delicate flavors of wine. 
Typical dosage is ¼ tsp potassium metabisulfite, per 6 gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation, and ½ tsp per 6 gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling. 
Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution. 
*Potassium Sorbate* is used to inhibit molds, and yeasts in wine. Also known affectionately as “wine stabilizer”, potassium sorbate produces sorbic acid when added to wine. It serves two purposes. When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, potassium sorbate will continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation. When a wine is sweetened before bottling, potassium sorbate is used to prevent refermentation when used in conjunction with potassium metabisulfite. It is primarily used with sweet wines, sparkling wines and some hard cider but may be added to table wines which exhibits difficulty in maintaining clarity after fining. 
.


----------



## joeswine

*Basic wine chemistry*

things to remember....
*Basic Wine Chemistry *​ 
*Chaptalization* is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape developed by the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal, for whom it was named. Contrary to popular belief, this process does not make the wine sweeter but only artificially inflates the alcohol content. Additionally, the sugar in chaptalized wine cannot be tasted. 
*Potassium Metabisulfite* is a common wine or must additive, where it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as potent antioxidant, protecting both the color, and delicate flavors of wine. 
Typical dosage is ¼ tsp potassium metabisulfite, per 6 gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation, and ½ tsp per 6 gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling. 
Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution. 
*Potassium Sorbate* is used to inhibit molds, and yeasts in wine. Also known affectionately as “wine stabilizer”, potassium sorbate produces sorbic acid when added to wine. It serves two purposes. When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, potassium sorbate will continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation. When a wine is sweetened before bottling, potassium sorbate is used to prevent refermentation when used in conjunction with potassium metabisulfite. It is primarily used with sweet wines, sparkling wines and some hard cider but may be added to table wines which exhibits difficulty in maintaining clarity after fining.


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour*

before the new year begins, i would like to share with all of you my trip to spain and the tour we of a wine bodega using huge ceramic wine vessels and organic grapes this was a experience to be in travailing back thorough time and the wine caves and finally tasting the exquisite finish product ,follow the tour and* happy new year*


----------



## joeswine

*Spanish wine tour continues*

a tradition that continues these wine makers combined the very old techniques with the modern and a excellent product,follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo*

this one needs to sit a while but early on when left to breath a bit has all the makings of a excellent rojas type wine the base i believe TEMPRANILLO


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo cont.*

LONG FLOW BUT INTERRESTING THE PROCESS GIVES YOU DETAILS FROM A HOMEWINE MALERS PROSPECTIVE.THE BALANCE WILL FOLLOW IN A WEEKS TIME,I WILL BE ENTERRING THIS WINE NEXT YEAR IN SOME OF THE LOCAL COMPETITIONS FOR SURE..


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo the finish*

this is a very good wine at the finish ...thanks for following the flow.


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

*Winexpert Sangiovese*​​Here is the beginning of the process. We are starting with an inexpensive wine kit from Wine Expert- World Vineyard. It's an Italian Sangiovese. My friend, Katie (Neviawen from the forum here) was here at my house to document the process for us all. I will include pictures throughout the making of this kit, as well as what we are going to do to take an inexpensive kit and make great wine from it. 

Step 1: We have acquired our kit, sanitized everything, and laid out all of our tools before we started. 

Step2: Added 1/2 gallon of hot water to my fermentation bucket and added bentonite. Stirred until no clumps. 

Step 3: Opened up the bag of "grape juice" and dumped into the bucket and stirred.

Step 4; Added 1/2 gal of spring water to the empty bag (where the juice came from, to rinse it out) and swished it around. Added that to the bucket and stirred. 

Step 5: Topped the bucket off w/ spring water to the 6 gallon mark and stirred more. 

Step 6: Took our specific gravity reading. Posted that on our hanging tag.

Step 7: Added 2 bags of oak chips and pitched the yeast. (sprinkled it on top, do not stir). 

Step 8: Cover the top of the bucket with a clean towel. This will prevent anything from falling into it. 

Then we wait 5-7 days. We will then move onto the next phase. 

*Next:*
Ok, today is 7 days from when we started this kit. We took our specific gravity reading and it is at 1.028. Slowly it's fermenting dry. 
I also put up a picture of what the bucket looks like right now. You can see there are some bubbles and oak chips floating on top. It smells great! Stay tuned- it will be going into the carboy for secondary fermentation soon.. 

*Next:*

10 days after we started this kit, we checked the Specific Gravity and it is 1.000- it is almost dry. Now is when we add the raisons and powdered oak (wine tannin powder). We are using 1 pound of black raisons (you can use white raisons for white wines) and we are using 4 tbsp. of the powdered oak. 

Here is a picture of the powdered oak and raisons at the bottom of our carboy. 

For our demonstration we are using the auto-syphon instead of my wine pump. This is the most basic tool for this job and is what most beginner home winemakers have handy. Transferring the wine from the primary fermentation bucket to the carboy helps to degas the wine. 

When you get to the bottom of the bucket when syphoning, you can use wedges to prop up one end of the bucket. This helps you get the most out of your wine. 

We now have our wine in the 6 gallon carboy. Let’s stir it up good to get all the raisons and powdered oak mixed well. This also will help degas more. 

We are using a 6 gallon carboy but only have a 5 gallon batch of wine. I am filling the remaining 1 gallon of headspace with Nitrogen.Once this is racked again it will go into a 5 gallon carboy. 

As always, we write our latest specific gravity reading on our tag and hang it on the carboy.

Cover the carboy up with a towel to keep light out. 

*Next:*
Sangiovese Update: My oh My! It's tasty so far!
Here's our observation: 
There was a heavy body to it, medium tanins, nice bite and a zing of acidity. It will be a good wine when aged. 
Here's a few pictures. But first, let's explain what were looking at. 
There are 3 pictures here. One the side of the glass in the pictures you will notice a "clear smear". This is what we call the wine's "legs". Having these when you tip a glass of wine indicates that the wine has good body and alchohol content. 
Next, you will notice the "age line". This is the line that is between the surface of the wine and the distance to the color of the wine. The smaller this line is, the longer your wine has aged. You will see in our pictures that this wine is still very young yet the ring is close. That is the difference in a kit; they are made to age quick so you can drink them faster. 

*Final step to our Sangiovese kit: Bottling!
*


Before we started, we got all the tools out of our toolbox that we would need. We also sanitized all our bottles and had them ready.
What we had ready before we started:
Sanitized Bottles
Funnel
Ferrari Bottle Filler
Long Stirring wand
seals
corks
Packets of Sorbate and K-Met that came with the kit
my bottle sealing tool (don't know what it's called but it holds the seal on top the bottle while I dip it into boiling water), notice we didn't filter, that's because we racked down to clear.

Next, we dumped the 2 packets of ingredients into the carboy and gave it a stir w/ the wand (I didn't take a picture of this, you all know how to just give it a stir.)

I then placed the Ferrari bottling tool on top of an empty bottle, put the larger hose into the carboy and applied suction to the smaller hose to start the syphon. Once the wine starts to flow I place this smaller hose into an empty bottle just so it's out of the way. 

What is great about this tool is that once a bottle is full it automatically stops the wine flow so that it doesn't overflow. You will see that it gets to a certain level in the little chamber and then it stops filling. When this happens you put the Ferrari tool into the next bottle and proceed. 

When you have all bottles filled, you cork them. Once they are corked you seal them.

Fit the seal over the bottle, I use a tool that holds the seal on top the bottle for me as I dip them into boiling water. I dip it in, give it one twist real quick and pull it out. (Literally takes 2 seconds and it's sealed.)


----------



## terrymck

Joe,
You have alluded to the fact that you topped off the primary to 6 gallons; then later on say that you only have a 5 gallon batch. Is this a typo? I know that you usually make a 5 gallon batch from a 6 gallon kit to improve body. Also you did not chapalitize. Is it not necessary on this kit?


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

we started off with a 6 gallon batch ,after fermentation I used a 6 gallon carboy and dry nitrogen for a header, then I use a larger carboy then needed to work off any excess gasses and if I need to add any other item, *I have room to work*. GOT IT! Then when I'm confident that the wine is still I move it to the _appropriate size vessel_ and use either the head space eliminator or nitrogen again, always racking down to ensure a tight environment for the wine.
This was a balanced kit at 1.10 I didn't want to push it so no I didn't capitalize, *not this time,*


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese the prince of italian reds*

*Bottling time to the finish a great red to have in your cellar no matter who's.*


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

the name saids it all...........follow the flow ....................and it turned out great.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE A PLAN AND KNOW THE RPOCESS............................


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

stay A WAKE still more to go.....two more phases of the process to go after one, I will post later, it's a lot to absorb.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

BROKE through the big red ITALIAN wine makers here in Hammonton with my SUPER TUSCAN, follow the flow.............


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*


this kit had it all going for it follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

STILL WITH ME??????????????????????


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

OKAY SO IT'S LENGHTY HAVE A GLASS OF WINE


----------



## brewbush

Question about the semi-dry classification for the Tuscan. I noticed some of your awards are semi-dry categories but the wines types should be dry. Is that just how the event classified the wines?

Or am I losing it and semi-dry. = dry


----------



## joeswine

*in the mix*

Yes that's how I classified the wine .and that's what they pput it up against in its flight. My Wines although according to the manufacturer are dry can fit into either classification.this one came out super Tuscan, smooth clean and clear with good fruit. And balanced Woods.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo*

this is a very cool wine for your cellar follow my flow..
you can take this $80 kit and be as creative as you want.


----------



## joeswine

*Diablo rojo cont.*

stay the course and have fun with wine making..

DIABLO ROJO; THIS OFF, DRY AND DARK PURPLE IN COLOR BLEND ,NOISE OF BLACKBERRY JAM MINGLED WITH CREATIVE VANILLA AROMAS AND A TOUCH OF TOBACCO AND A BRANDY STYLE FINISH YET IT IS A WINE ALL THE WAY.

SOUNDS LIKE MOUTHFUL. WHERE GONNA MAKE IT JUST THAT. OUR TWEAKS TO THIS KIT WILL BE AS FOLLOWS.

WERE GOING TO CHANGE THE YEAST ,TWO *EC 1118* THIS IS DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE FLUCTUATIONS IN OUR WORKSPACE. SECONDLY, GOING TO ADD A *SMOKED WOODEN STAVE* ALONG WITH OAK TANNINS IN THE SECONDARY. WE ARE GOING TO USE A BELLY BAND DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE IN OUR WORKSPACE. THE OAK STAVE WILL GO IN THE PRIMARY, THE OAK _TANNINS WILL GO IN THE SECONDARY_ AND LONG WITH A *HANDFUL OF FRESH BLACKBERRIES JUST SQUEEZED. THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF FPAC* JUST A HANDFUL OF BERRIES. NOTHING TO OVERPOWER 
BERRIES. NOTHING TO OVERPOWER NOTHING TO OVERWHELM JUST A TOUCH OF BLACKBERRY DEPTH. REMEMBER, THIS IS STILL A ROJO AND THE STYLE IS BOLD AND FRUITY. WE MAY ALSO BRING UP THE ABV. TO 1.14. THIS ONE SHOULD TURN OUT TO BE A MOUTHFUL... FOLLOW THE FLOW..

FINISH; great flavor fruits and woods intertwined medium body and smooth finish. If I WOULD HAVE CHANGED ANYTHING IT WOULD BOOSTED UP THE PH A LITTLE MORE.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

For all you Big Red wine drinkers this ones a must to play with..


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

It pays to pay attention to the MFG> flow if you intend to tweak as you go along. Knowing what they expect and what your deviations are my conflict with the final out come, just a thought. I do it all the time but first I know the basics and I have a plan also.


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

A little more to go, be patient


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan continued*

Now were at the end ,I know I get lengthy but each step is a part of a larger process and for the beginners and some of you oldies details mean a lot.


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits*

Remember these ? well I just got around to my wine works and finally got to these. I wouldn't do these as a rule but for a gift to get someone starting into wine making Yes (with your help), BUT, what a good wine maker could do with these _1 gallon kits_ is over whelming. Imagine the wine combinations you can make by using a base wine whether it be a *cheap kit* or a _*moderately priced kit*_ and adding one of these 1 gallon kits to the base.Here's how mine finished out.

The PINO grigio, sharp and clean, the Merlot excellent with the raisins added,no rasisiny taste just good depth great balance of Oak all out of a 1 gallon kit.The finished product you'll see as the last pics,first the pino,them the Merlot.


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red*

Before I move on with this thread I would like to review the process with you. The tweaks were small but the kit was large $$ so I need to step lightly. follow the flow......


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red continued*

looks good so far did you take notice of the ABV. starting SG.? follow the flow....


----------



## joeswine

*La Batalla Spanish red continued*

bright with fruit yet a good balance of wood ...


----------



## joeswine

*Kates Blackberry zin.*

*Vino Italiano Blackberry Zinfandel Kit*​

This kit we purchased off Amazon for ~$45.00 shipped. This kit is contained the Zinfandel juice, a blackberry F-pak, labels, corks, caps, packets of yeast, sorbate, bentonite, k-met, and chitosan. This kit contains the essentials for any new winemaker (minus the basic equipment that is needed.)
*What we added: *
• 2 ball jars of simple syrup (each ball jar will bring the SG up .01%)
• Spring Water
• **Oak Tannin** Note: We will add this in the secondary, not primary
*The steps:*
• First, we added the bentonite and ½ gal. warm water and stirred until dissolved.
• Next, we added the packet of Zinfandel juice and then topped up to 6 gallon mark on our primary fermenter. 
• Then, we took an SG reading. The kit as is, came to 1.070. We wanted our SG reading to be at 1.10, so we added the ball jars of simple syrup, one at a time (and took readings in between). We ended up using both jars and this brought us up to our desired SG reading: 1.09. We wanted this specific SG reading because 1. We like nice alcohol in our wine and 2. We wanted it to be well balanced. This kit contains an F-pak so the higher alch. Will balance it out- it won’t be too sweet . 
• Next, we gave the bucket a good stir and added the yeast.
• The last step: We document the contents on our tag, hang it on the bucket, and drape a towel over the top. Now we wait. 
Update!!
We checked the SG tonight (6/20/14) and it is at 0.98. This is dry and ready to rack to the secondary carboy. We racked it to our secondary, marked the SG reading and the date on our tag and hung it on the carboy. 
Our wine is coming along!
Stay tuned... 

This is a fun kit that Kate did, short flow big taste, really.
**Update**
Hello Everyone!
We haven't posted the all-anticipated posts of this economically pleasing wine kit.  So tonight is the night! For those who are catching the back end of this tutorial, this is a Blackberry-Zinfandel Kit from Vino Italiano. This kit’s average price is ~$45.00. 
 we added the Blackberry F-pack, the clearing agent that came with the kit, the K-Met (Metabisulphate), Sorbate, stirred it up, and let it sit. 
Tonight we checked-in on this wine and gave it our winemakers check-up.
Appearance: Nice dark purple color
Aroma: Berries, oak, and a slight tar smell (which is indicative of a drinkable dark, red wine)
Taste: Definitely taste the blackberry. It's right on the money. Has a light oak taste. This wine finishes sweet but not overly sickening, which is nice. The higher alcohol content (from adding the extra sugar/simple syrup in the beginning) really balances it out like we thought going into this kit.
Although this wine is definitely drinkable to the average wine drinker, I would let this one sit another month to really let the flavors come together. However, if I was invited last minute to a BBQ, this I wouldn't be ashamed of grabbing a few bottle of this to share. 
This was a good purchase. It's a "filler" wine that I can share or drink while the other stuff I have is aging. 
Oh, and for the count- we got 27 bottles (plus one that was not quite full- we drank that). 
The total cost per bottle: $1.66. Can’t Beat that!

Cheers! 
Joe and Kate


----------



## joeswine

*Pino noir*

*Blackberry Pinot Noir*​​We purchased a medium grade kit (~$80-$90) Pinot Noir Winexperts Kit. We wanted Blackberry Pinot Noir so we purchased 1.5 lbs. of blackberries to go with this. 

*The Winexperts box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Pack of Red star Champagne Yeast
· 2 Chaptalization Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphate) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 1 package of oak chips
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Liters/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphate Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
· Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher alch. Content. It would just be juice with not much alch.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
· Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
· Then we added the oak chips and sprinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit. 
· Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the F-pak 
· We added the F-pak to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
· We added bellie-bands because it’s chilly in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. J

(.)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

We would like to thank Winexperts for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.​


----------



## joeswine

*austrailian sharaz vignier*

This was a very nice addition to my cellar the flow is short...................


----------



## joeswine

*SHIRAZ /VIOGNIER continued*

follow the flow.............................


----------



## joeswine

*SHIRAZ /VIOGNIER continued*

just a little more to go...be patient


----------



## joeswine

*Where are they now??*

JUST A FOLLOW UP ON THE GREEN APPLE RIESLING AND THE CARNEVALE................. AND WHEN IT'S TIME WILL REVIEW BOTH.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone classic/ amarone style*

THIS IS A LONG ONE HAVE A GLASS AND A SET...THERE ARE ALL DIFFERENT WINES IN THIS WORLD BUT AMARONE HAS A TASTE PROFILE IN THE REDS THAT IS UNTO ITSELF..FOLLOW THE PROCESS AND BE PATIENT.


----------



## joeswine

*Amarone the king of italian reds*

*Wineexpert Amarone*​**UPDATED**​Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!) 
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212 
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak 
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Wine thief 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins. 
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

UPDATE:​We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## joeswine

*Chardenay cheap kit*

Katie’s Chardonnay Kit​

It’s been a while since I’ve created a post of my own; I’ve been primarily helping Joeswine with the upkeep of his posts. I wanted to share this kit with everyone because I’ve tried it before and know that it turns out pretty awesome. 
This is a Fontana Wine kit I recently purchased off-line. This traditionally is a 6-gallon kit but I are not making it like so. I am making this a 5-gallon kit as to keep the flavor and better balance between alcohol and wine with the contribution of the one cup of oak (which is traditional to a Chardonnay). 
*Ingredients:*
These are all the basic ingredients that came with the kit. Please see the pictures attached. 

*What additional changes I’ve made:*
-Changing the end volume of the wine from 6 gallons to 5 gallons
-adding the cup of oak
-At the end, by reducing the volume of concentrate, we increased the ABV without even trying. 
-Personal preference: I will be adding zest of 1 grapefruit before racking. This will pick up the PH and give it a clean, crisp finish. 
See the pictures for the process. J
WERE NEARRING THE FINIS WE LEFT OUR WINE IN THE COLD SINK FOR 14 DAYS AND IT CLEARED QUIT NICELY, WE KNEW RACKING BACK TO A ONE MIX CONTAINER WOULD CAUSE US TO HAVE TO RECLEAR ONE MORE TIME; THE WORK IS NOT A BIG DEAL WHAT IS, *THE FINISH*.

BEFORE I RACKED I TASTED THIS WINE AND LIKE I THOUGHT, THE WHITES SHOULD GO INTO A 5 GALLONS PROCESS ALSO.JUST LIKE THE REDS, THE WHITES EVEN WITH ALL THE SOLIDS WOULD HAVE NOT (IMOP) HAVE HAD MUCH TASTE, BRINGING THEM DOWN TO 5 GALLONS GAVES THESE KITS LIFE AND WITH THE SMALL AMOUNT OF TWEAKS THAT WE DID, WAS JUSTFIDE .SO WHAT WAS THE RESULTS??
SMOOTH UP FRONT WITH DECIENT FRUIT NOT OVER WHELMING BUT STILL THERE, CRISP ACIDITY WITH A CLEAN FINISH, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT OUR YIELD WAS WHEN WE BOTTLE AND OUR COST PER BOTTLE.


​


----------



## joeswine

coffee port or caramel port the base I believe is the same so here's the caramel, correction,that should have been a* second* place metal not a *first*.


----------



## joeswine

*Rojo blanco*

finished with a silver 2016 this is how it was made.


----------



## joeswine

We just broke 100,000 views thanks people again for your support.


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes continued*

A really good wine and gets better with time almost a gold


----------



## joeswine

*Torrontes continued*

Know matter what this is an impressive wine.


----------



## joeswine

*cellar masters*

coffee port always a good performer follow the thinking of the judges....


----------



## joeswine

*Coffee port*

*Cru Coffee Port Kit*​

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· 2 packs of Lavin EC-1118
· 1 Coffee Port F-Pack
· Package of bentonite
· Package of Metabisulphite
· Package of Potassium Sorbate
· Package of each Chitosan-D2 and kiesesol-D1(Fining Agents)

*Our additions:*
· Oak Tannin (Tannic Acid)
· Instant Coffee
· Spring Water

*Tools you will need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (3 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend One-step or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 15 wine bottles, 15 corks , 15 seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.)

*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· We have our bucket measured to 3 gallons. The kit didn’t quite come to 3 gallons so we topped up until we reach 3 gallons. 
· Add the bentonite and give it a good stir. 
· Then add the oak tannin, stir, and then take your SG reading. It should read 1.10. 
· We then took a PH test and it read 4.0. Typically, it should be around 3.5. 
· Finally, we pitched the yeast, made up a tag, and covered it up to rest. 



After it ferments dry: (Approx. 2 weeks)

After it fermented dry (SG: 0.98) we racked it into our secondary, 3 gallon fermentation carboy. 
We had to take out approx. 1.5 wine bottles of wine out of the carboy so that we will have room for the coffee F-pack. We set that aside with an air-lock. If when we rack the wine again and we come up short and have extra air-space, we will add it. 
We checked the ph of the wine and it is at 3.5 which is perfect for this type of port. 
We added the sorbate, K-met packet, and gave it a good stir. 
Next, we added packet #1 (of the 2 packet combination) of Kieselsol and set our time for 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, we add packet #2 of Kieselsol and stirred again. (Learning tip: The reason for the 5 minute wait time is you are waiting for the molecules from packet #1 to bind to certain molecules in the wine. The second packet will bind to the molecules in the first packet and then the clearing process starts. (Positive and negative particles will attract, become heavy, and fall to the bottom of the carboy, taking the sediment with it.) 
Next, we added the Coffee F-Pak. Note: Not all of the F pack fit into my 3-gallon carboy. I should have taken out possibly 2 bottles of extra wine instead of 1.5. I put the extra F-pak in the refrigerator. When I rack this again to a final mixing bucket I will add everything to the bucket and give it a good stir. 
THE TRICK IS TO LET IT SIT A YEAR ,IF YOU CAN.MY 4TH KIT AND STILL WINNING


----------



## joeswine

A winner every time ,coffee port with a twist


----------



## go_mustangs

Hi there,
I have 5 buckets (6 gallons each) of Zinfandel wine juice that I picked up from California Concentrates back in September. I basically just let it set and ferment with the natural yeast. I usually rack it to a carboy/degass/add tanin & raisins but this time around I just let it go. Can I still add tanin and raisins this late in the process? If so, would you please give me a suggested workflow? Thank you.


----------



## joeswine

Explain why your just letting a it go,is it in a carboy? How much?


----------



## go_mustangs

Thank you very much for such a quick reply.

I have buckets with built in airlocks. I usually let it go through primary fermentation for about a week or two, then transfer to a carboy, degas, add tanin, add raisins, add oak chips, let it go for a couple months like that, then rack it again and stabilize and wait for it to clear (another month usually) then bottle. This time I just left in in the buckets (neglect not tactics). I know some people just buy the wine juice, leave it in the bucket for 4 or 5 months, stabilize and bottle. That wasn't my intent, but in effect that's where I am (about 5 months into the process). I'm extremely novice at winemaking but really enjoy it. How would you suggest I proceed?


----------



## joeswine

OK it's a little more clear now,take a SG reading I know you should be done ,do it anyway. NextTaste the wine tell me what you think.?


----------



## go_mustangs

SG is 1.010 and it tastes good, but a little sweet


----------



## joeswine

Then your ready to bottle,add chemistry and move forward.


----------



## go_mustangs

Excellent, thank you.

Do I still have the option of transferring to a carboy and adding tanin/oak/raisin and letting it soak for a month or so or best to leave it as is and stabilize and bottle?

Again, I really appreciate your help.


----------



## joeswine

Just finish the flow as normal and bottle.is if crystal clear?


----------



## joeswine

*Pino /sauvignon blanc blend*

This one turned out well, keep an EYE on this one *CORINTH,follow the flow,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,*


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits*

These are fun yet a pain , if you think about the posibilities and you are creative then there's no problem.


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits continued*

follow the flow................i know some think why bother they have aready played a roll in my works.


----------



## joeswine

*1 gallon wine kits continued*

JUST A LITTLE LEFT....STA
*Just when I thought I ‘ve seen it all* and read about all the one gallon trials and errors out there in wine land the manufactures listen WHAT IF to the “PEOPLE”..AND CAME OUT WITH 1 GALLON WINE KITS FOR THOSE WHO WANTED TO TRY BUT DIDN’T KNOW IF IT WAS FOR THEM ,OR FOR A FRIEND WHO LIKED YOUR WINE BUT WASN’T SURE IF IT WAS FOR HIM OR HER.OR FOR THATSPECIAL HOLIDAY,THIS might be known to some but I thought what a novel idea ,so as an *experimental kind of guy,* I just had to get one and see if the manufactures.* SPOT ON.* For the last 15years in this hobby I ‘seen the advent of *grape fpac, raisins, tannins* and *all kinds of flavor enhancers* being applied and for some very nice results and some NOT so well. I have seen many people making 1 gallon batches of this or that and being NOT of that mindset correcting a batch that small wasn’t worth my time or cost. But know I’m going to try one of these to see if they make sense ,so follow the program to its conclusion and as always{ think outside the box}.
OUR TWEAKS: SMALL AMOUNT OF GRAPEFRUIT ZEST IN THE PRIMARY [1/2 OF ONE]
 SG. AT 1.10 AND THAT’S IT.
THIS SHOULD BE A 4 WEEK KIT AND DONE.
 I JUST RECEIVED ONE OF THESE KITS FROM A FELLOW WINE MAKER AND FRIEND BY THE HANDLE OF _CORINTH_, FROM CALIFORNIA; IT’S A 1 GALLON MERLOT KIT THE TWEAKS, _TANNINS AND GOOD_ _ABV._NOTHING MUCH MORE THEN THAT I WANT TO KEEP THIS AS SMOOTH AS POSSIBLE, THEN I’LL SHIP HIM A BOTTLE TO SAY _THANK YOU_ .IT IS AMAZING TO ME HOW WINE MAKING CAN CREATE FELLOWSHIPS AROUND THE BLOCK AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

ADDED 1/3 CUP RASINS, THE OAK SUPPLIED CAME IN A GROUNDED FORM 3.4GR AND ALMOST POWDER 6GR, VERY COOL 

 THANKS AGAIN...CORINTH
Y A WAKE


----------



## joeswine

*cheap kits zinfandel blush*

let's review and then move forward..


----------



## joeswine

*cheap kits zinfandel blush*

STAY WITH ME A LITTLE MORE TO GO.....I believe this kit was $55.00


----------



## joeswine

update ,little over a month out still a little cloudy ,but going to be a good summer wine with the hint of strawberries and raspberry quite nice. I ALSO PLACED ABOUT A GALLON IN THE REFRIGERATOR TO COLD SOAK AND HELP DROP OUT THE SOLIDS WILL SEE IF THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.


----------



## joeswine

*Pino /sauvignon blanc blend*

This is going to be a very tasty wine so far in competition so good,follow the flow...


----------



## joeswine

*2017 hammomton wine contest*

always a great time close to 300 people paid attendants and 150 wines,lost of competition ,this is a big juice ,grape area and that's what your up against,heavy into reds and fruits.heres how i fared,my big reds where spot on,judging was sponsored by the department of agriculture and all 13 judges where for real and that makes it all the more fun. THE PEOPLES CHOICE AWARD IS WHAT THE PAID ATTENDEES THOUGHT OF THE WINES THEY GOT TO VOTE.


----------



## joeswine

*blackberry pino nior*

*Blackberry Pinot Noir*​​We purchased a medium grade kit (~$80-$90) Pinot Noir Winexpert Kit. We wanted Blackberry Pinot Noir so we purchased 1.5 lbs. of blackberries to go with this. 

*The Winexperts box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice 
· 1 Pack of Redstar Champagne Yeast
· 2 Chaptalization Packs (bags of sugar) 
· Package #2 (bentonite) 
· Package #3 (Metabisulphate) 
· Package #4 (Sorbate) 
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent) 
· Mesh Straining Bag 
· 1 package of oak chips
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:* 
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Liters/7.9 US gallons capacity) 
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel) 
· Measuring cup 
· Hydrometer and test jar 
· Thermometer 
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity) 
· Bung and Air lock 
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging) 
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!) 
· Metabisulphate Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals 
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an Italian floor corker.) 
*The Process:* 
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J 
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved. 
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse out the bag with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Top up your bucket until you reach a 6 gallons. (I marked my primary before hand so I know where 6 gallons are.)
· Now, we took our SG reading and it was 1.08. We added simple syrup to bring the SG up to 1.10. Our logic is: We wanted at least 12% alc. At the finish because we know the blackberries are going to pick up the flavor at the bottom end. (The blackberries will overpower the flavor if we didn’t have a higher alch. Content. It would just be juice with not much alch.. This is how we do it, I’m sure others have their own opinion.)
· Next, we added ½ tsp of oak tannin. 
· Then we added the oak chips and sprinkled yeast on top of that. Don’t stir, just let it sit. 
· Then here comes the blackberry. We created a homemade F-pak out of blackberries. (We are going to write up a separate tutorial for this.) Note: an F-pack doesn’t always have to go at the end of the wine, you can add them to the beginning. An F-pack in the beginning will blend well with the wine but will not usually over-power the taste of the wine. If you add it at the end, the predominant taste of your wine will be the F-pac. 
· We added the F-pak to a mesh bag and tied it in a knot then added it to the primary.
· We added belie-bands because it’s chilly in the winter. It’s about 64 degrees in here. After that, I hung my tag on the side, put a towel on top. And we wait. J

(REWRITE WHAT IS BELOW TO MAKE IT GO W/ THIS WINE.)
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Winexperts Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 

​


----------



## joeswine

*Neibiolo a cousin to sangiovese*

very nice wine to have in your cellar took a professionals judges award this year with this one at the Hammonton wine festival. Follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

*Pino noir*

I use theses grade kits to fill in my stock when it gets low with out lifting my wallet, with a little planning you can make a decent wine every time. Short flow you've have seen it before.Remember how to make the fpac????


----------



## joeswine

*Orchard breeze*

NOTHING LIKE THE TASTE OF PEACHES WE'LL MAKE THIS ONE SPECIAL....NEXT ON THE MENU


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

The king of italian wines to some this wine can be a mouthfull of deep robust flavors and if left to age can be outstanding follow the flow.::


----------



## joeswine

*Super tuscan*

*SUPER TUSCAN *

_Tignanello_ one of the early Super Tuscans.
Super Tuscans are an unofficial category of Tuscan wines, not recognized within the Italian wine classification system. The origin of Super Tuscans is rooted in the restrictive DOC practices of the Chianti zone prior to the 1990s. During this time Chianti could be composed of no more than 70% Sangiovese and had to include at least 10% of one of the local white wine grapes. Producers who deviated from these regulations could not use the Chianti name on their wine labels and would be classified as _vino da tavola_ - Italy's lowest wine designation. By the 1970s, the consumer market for Chianti wines was suffering and the wines were widely perceived to be lacking quality. Many Tuscan wine producers thought they could produce a better quality wine if they were not hindered by the DOC regulations.[6]
The marchese Piero Antinori was one of the first to create a "Chianti-style" wine that ignored the DOC regulations, releasing a 1971 Sangiovese-Cabernet Sauvignon blend known as _Tignanello_ in 1978. Other producers followed suit and soon the prices for these Super Tuscans were consistently beating the prices of some of most well known Chianti. Rather than rely on name recognition of the Chianti region, the Super Tuscan producers sought to create a wine brand that would be recognizable on its own merits by consumers. By the late 1980s, the trend of creating high quality non-DOC wines had spread to other regions of Tuscany, as well as Piedmont and Veneto. Modification to the Chianti DOC regulation attempted to "correct" the issues of Super Tuscans, so that many of the original Super Tuscans would now qualify as standard DOC/G Chianti. Most producers have brought their Super Tuscans back under legal regulations, notably since the creation of the less restrictive IGT _Toscana_ designation in 1992 and the DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia designation in 1994.[6]
In addition to wines based on the Sangiovese grape, many well known Super Tuscans are based on a "Bordeaux-blend", meaning a combination of grapes typical for Bordeaux (esp. Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot). These grapes are not originally from the region, but imported and planted later. The climate in Tuscany has proven to be very good for these grapes. One of the first successful Super Tuscan based "Bordeaux-blend" was _Sassicaia_, by Tenuta San Guido, now classified as DOC Bolgheri.


----------



## joeswine

*Blackcurrent wine from juice*

I have always enjoyed fruit wine and because I haven't made in a long while this thread will be just for that. I bought my juice at *Gino's pinto's* along time associate of mine back in my wine club days. I've know him and his organization for about 20 years top shelf wine juices and grapes from around the world. so this is the first of 4 I have ordered from him,6 gallons of each,BLACKCURRENT first, then in September the rest,, that's when the next order comes in..cranberry,apple and plum, so follow the flow it's the best fruit wine you can make, BLACK CURRENT..................


----------



## joeswine

*BLACKCURRENT from juice*

moving down the line these last two pics are of a full fermentation ....


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese/merlot cheap kits*

THIS IS A CHEAP KIT THAT TURNED OUT QUITE NICE YOU CAN MAKE A DECENT BOTTLE OF EVERYDAY WINE WITHH THESE KITS YOU JUST NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX............FOLLOW THE FLOW.


----------



## joeswine

*Sangiovese/merlot cheap kits*

LETS FOLLOW THE FLOW TO THE END THIS ONES GOING TO BE GOOD....


----------



## cubluffs

Looks great! In your experience, what's the cutoff for cutting kits down to 5G? Is it 10L? 

I'm about to start a RJS Malbec style 12L kit (10L juice, 2L dried grapeskins). Was planning on making to 6G, adding currants, tannin, extra oak, capitulating, but this has me re-thinking the process. 

Would you recommend making to 5G with less additions (leave out currants, tannin, capitulating) or make to 6G with all additions (currants, tannin, capitulating)?


----------



## joeswine

Cheaper kits work better, your kit has a lot of moving parts, stay the course, keep us informed of your progress.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet sauvignon rose'*

this was a fun kit to do the fruit in the wine is awesome,follow the flow..


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet savuignon rose'*

Tasting notes fresh strawberry on the nose, with watermelon and cranberry accents. This crisp, fragrant rose’ carries juicy strawberry flavors and tart red fruit notes on the palate.ballanced and refreshing with crisp acidity and a subtle minerality
WOULD DO THIS ONE AGAIN…………………..


----------



## geek

Looks good.


----------



## joeswine

Taste good,yet different , great color,fruity like summer.


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet sauvignon rose'*

 lets review this one I've had a couple of request to do just that,here we go..follow the flow..


----------



## joeswine

*Cabernet savuignon rose'*

follow the flow is truly a great summer wine not only in color but in taste...


----------



## joeswine

*Blue berry melbec*

LIKE BERRIES ? LIKE MELBEC FOLLOW THE FLOW..SHORT BUT TO THE POINT..


----------



## joeswine

*Building body into your wine*

NEXT TIME TRY ADDIN A GRAPE FPAC TO YOUR WINE ......REALLY TRY IT ..


----------



## joeswine

*finally 100,1000 views*

finally broke the 1000,000 view mark that's 4 threads that are alive and well here at the forum thank you all...


----------



## joeswine

*Coconut YUZO*

I know its the end of the summer but this one was a pleasant surprise,really .....follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

*Shiraz /viognier*

this turned out quite nice for me fruity / yet with a mild dryness...follow the flow..


----------



## joeswine

*SHIRAZ /VIOGNIER continued*

follow the flow ''''''''''''''''''''


----------



## joeswine

lets try vino super tuscan


----------



## joeswine

vino super Tuscan continued


----------



## joeswine

vino super Tuscan balance..


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#1 ..SHIRAZ have always been a favorite of mine and this one was no exception follow the easy flow ..


----------



## joeswine

Phase#2.. NOT SO HARD SO FAR


----------



## joeswine

SOMETHING DIFFEREN IN A BLEND ,,SANGIOVESE /MERLOT BLEND....NOT BAD,,


----------



## joeswine

STILL MORE TO THE FOW


----------



## joeswine

NOT TO MUCH MORE.......................LET TIME MAKE IT EVEN DEEPER


----------



## joeswine

CAROLS BLUEBERRY PINO NIOR...EASY AND QUICK THIS UNIT IS REDUCED TO A 5 GALLON MARK AND SHOULD PRODUCE A VERY NICE FINISH FOR THE PRICE......FOLLOW THE FLOW


----------



## joeswine

ALWAYS OBEY THE SANITATION RULES YOUR WINES WILL FINISH BETTER AND STORE LONGER FOLLOW THE FLOW..


----------



## joeswine

carols wines are on the move follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

this kit has it all from corks to seals ,will see what the end result is that's what really counts ,follow the flow almost done in a week or two will be moving all six wines into the bottling phase....then they can rest and mature if carol lets them??


----------



## joeswine

for some reason it repeated itself...will try again


----------



## joeswine

THIS ONE IS COMIMG ALONG QUITE WELL.....BIG AND BOLD REDS...


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #2...........follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

LAST BUT NOT LEAST THE FINISH.................


----------



## joeswine

SOME THING DIFFERENT COMES MY WAY..THIS IS MY VERSION OF THE TOASTED MARSHMALLOW PORT I'M USING A TABLESPOON OF INSTANT COFFEE IN THE PRIMARY IN THE END IT WILL ADD A VERY DELICIOUS NOTE OF CHOCOLATE.PHASE #1


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #1 CONTINUED


----------



## joeswine

DO YOU LIKE COCONUT I DO AND SO DID THE PEOPLE AT THE* Hammonton WINE FESTIVAL..*


----------



## joeswine

LETS MAKE A SMOOTH RED GOOD TASTE AND TEXTURE


----------



## joeswine

ROUN2 ,BY ADDING THE BLUEBERRIES TO THE PRIMARY WE ESTABLISHED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE IN BALANCE WITH THE BASE,,,NOT A BACKGROUND PARTNER.


----------



## joeswine

ROUND 3....REMEMBER THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ADDING THE FRUIT IN THE PRIMARY OR S
HERE’S MY TAKE ON BLENDING, THE FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS IS TO ESTABLISH WHAT IT IS IN A TASTE PROFILE, YOUR TRING TO ACCOMPLISH AND WHAT TYPE OF FINISH YOU WANT YOU’RE PROFILE TO HAVE.

NOW THAT YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED THE PROFILE AND FINISH LOOK FOR BLENDS THAT REALLY GO WELL TOGETHER, THAT MAKES WINE BLENDING A WHOLE LOT EASIER.

EX: MAKING A CAB AND MERLOT BLEND IS EASY RIGHT! BUT IF YOU’RE A KIT PERSON NOT SO. A WINEMAKER WHO USES GRAPE AND OR FRESH JUICE HAS THE ADVANTAGE OVER US, WHAT TO DO? *UNDERSTAND? SO WHAT DO WE NEED TO KNOW AND HOW DO WE GET THERE.*

*BLENDING CONSIST OF A TWO DIFFERENT WINES OR MORE HAVING SOME OF THE SAME CHARISTERICTS YET DIFFERENT ENOUGH IN THE BLEND TO STANDOUT ON ITS OWN IN RESPECT TO THE OTHERS ROLL IN THE MIX.USUALY THIS IS ALL DONE AFTER THE WINES ARE COMPLETED AND READY FOR BOTTLING.*

KIT MAKERS CAN DO ALL THE SAME MOVES ONLY GOING DOWN A VERY DIFFERENT AVENUE, IF YOU THINK OF ALL THE DIFFERENT ELEMENTS WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THERE IS NO REAL DIFFERENCE. WE HAVE THE BASIC CONCENTRATES TO WORK WITH AND DEPENDING ON THE VALUE OF THE KIT A LARGER AMOUNT OF VERITAL JUICE THEN CONCENTRATE,ADDING FRESH MADE FPACS TO THE BASE OR ZEST TO THE SECONDARY ALONG WITH THE ADDED AMOUNTS OF OAK,OAK DUST AND TANNINS ADDED ALL ALONG THE WAY. OUR VOLUMNES ARE SMALL ENOUGH TO TAKE CORRECTIVE ACTION AS LONG AS WE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE BASIC WINE RULES AND SANATATION THAT’S REQUIRED,WE CAN CHANGE PERTTY MUCH ON A DIME AND DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO OUR PRODUCT.

LET SAY I WAS GOING TO MAKE A BLACKBERRY PINO NIOR,THE FIRST QUESTION I ASK IS WHATS THE PRIMARY FLAVOR AND WHATS THE SECONDARY.DEPENDING ON WHAT PROFILE I WANT THE WINE TO HAVE (TASTE) WILL LET ME KNOW WHO IS THE LEADER IN THIS DANCE, THE PINO OR THE BLACKBERRY,IF I USE THE PINO AS THE BASE AND THE BLACKBERRY FPAC IN THE PRIMARY THEN THE BLEND SHOULD BE A PARTENERSHIP OF FLAVORS,IF I USE THE PINO AS MY BASE AND THE BERRIES IN THE SECONDARY THEN THE BERRIES BECOME THE BACKGROUND.

*I want to make a **pinot Gris**, from California and wanted to create crispness and a better bite to the wines finish, I would finish out the wine making sure I first had good abv. At the finish then either in the secondary or as a closing step a couple of weeks before bottling I would add the zest of 1 grapefruit or lemon to the wine and allow it two sit to infuse its acidity and freshness to the wine, then rack and bottle.*

*Making your own fpac from fresh grapes whenever and where ever you find them adds a better mouthfeel to the finish.*

There are a lot of different ways kit winemakers can infuse, enhance and create our wines to have a touch of our own hand in the making but you must take the time to *plan your work and work your plan*, and always think outside the box.






ECONDARY?


----------



## joeswine

SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THE AIR FOR THE FALL TO COME A TOASTED MASHMELLO PORT WITH A COFFEE TWIST.


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2................................NOW IHAVE LET THIS DREW SIT FOR A WHILE SO IT'STIME TO TASTE AGAIN THIS IS A WINNER..


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #3...............................REALLY NEED KIT


----------



## joeswine

White wines to me are simple to do you don't have to over think them just nudge them along, this wine is a blended white ,call White Pacific Quartet. Add a little zest and kick up the ABV> if you want and make wine follow the flow.


----------



## joeswine

Phase #2... keep it simple drink it young


----------



## joeswine

What's


left/


----------



## geek

How's the Pacific Quartet? Taste and aroma and how sweet did it end after f-pack addition after fermentation??


----------



## joeswine

I haven't done this in a long time ,today was my first taste of the *WINE EXPERTS FLUME BLANC*..lots of juice in this kit ,even though I added a _*white grape*_ fpac to it ,that's just me , I have to say this kit when finished is worth the bucks ,REALLY. Moved the ABV. up to 13% and it didn't make a dent in the smooth dry finish ,NICE KIT.
next week I'll bottle and show you the finish product,,,


----------



## weriss

Hello, all dears winemakers. I'm not an incredible newbie in winemaking and bought Winexpert Eclipse for a present for my pal, he is from Texas and he wants to start winemaking business. Who can tell, maybe it's better to add something to my order basket? I only buy from this guy, because I trust him. P.S. Friend's birthday would be in the middle of summer, so that's a deadline to answer and if everything would be ok we would have a great hang out with wine glasses in our hands.


----------



## joeswine

Do you have a question?


----------



## jgmann67

weriss said:


> Hello, all dears winemakers. I'm not an incredible newbie in winemaking and bought Winexpert Eclipse for a present for my pal, he is from Texas and he wants to start winemaking business. Who can tell, maybe it's better to add something to my order basket? I only buy from this guy, because I trust him. P.S. Friend's birthday would be in the middle of summer, so that's a deadline to answer and if everything would be ok we would have a great hang out with wine glasses in our hands.



A couple three thoughts: 

* This probably isn’t the thread for this post.

* When you say winemaking business, what do you mean? Selling wine or selling winemaking kits and equipment? If it’s selling wine, he should find a good liquor lawyer who can navigate state a federal licensing requirements. 

* If your friend doesn’t have equipment, he’ll need the basics to turn that kit into wine.

Maybe repost this in a new thread of its own. You’ll get more response.


----------



## joeswine

ok gang this is the perfect example of not paying attention to what your doing and proper time management..
*started* off with a zin/kit that didn't have any flavor not even a little ,to that I added a strawberry fpac and it was ok at least not a loss something I could give away and not worry about .done
NEXT a grapefruit passion IM kit every thing was going ok but now I'm pressed for time. Miss reading the label on the ZIN, I then racked add the chems and fpac to the mix now I have a ZIN with a grape fpac and a grapefruit fpac in it, what a dunce. That now leaves me with a grapefruit IM kit without an fpac. so what I'm going to do is add the zest of a grapefruit to the IM kit and hope for the best,,NEVER RUSH<ALWAY READ YOUR TAGS. and *be pre pared to think outside the box.*


----------



## joeswine

my favorite fugitive....


----------



## joeswine

phase #2.........


----------



## joeswine

my favorite fugitive this wine kit has it all once you message it.


----------



## joeswine

Has anyone done this wine or in the process of ????


----------



## joeswine

*ECLIPSE MERLOT*, this is just one of many high end kits I've done, and like most not to many tweaks I try to stay to the instructions when kits get this expensive. Follow my process...


----------



## joeswine

_*Balance to follow.....there are a lot of moving parts with this kit read the instructions and understand the flow of the additives and were they are to come into play..*_


----------



## joeswine

something new comes my way ,I love wines from SPAIN,here's a real winner. Follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

PHASE #2................................


----------



## joeswine

BALANCE...THE END....................


----------



## joeswine

something from Spain....this ones spot on and new.


----------



## joeswine

PHASE# 2............................outstanding finish................................


----------



## joeswine

JUST a little more............................PROMISe


----------



## joeswine

*Basic Wine Chemistry *​





*Chaptalization* is the process of adding sugar to unfermented grape developed by the French chemist Jean-Antoine-Claude Chaptal, for whom it was named. Contrary to popular belief, this process does not make the wine sweeter but only artificially inflates the alcohol content. Additionally, the sugar in chaptalized wine cannot be tasted.


*Potassium Metabisulfite* is a common wine or must additive, where it forms sulfur dioxide gas (SO2). This both prevents most wild microorganisms from growing, and it acts as potent antioxidant, protecting both the color, and delicate flavors of wine.


Typical dosage is ¼ tsp potassium metabisulfite, per 6 gallon bucket of must (yielding roughly 75ppm of SO2) prior to fermentation, and ½ tsp per 6 gallon bucket (150 ppm of SO2) at bottling.


Winemaking equipment is sanitized by spraying with a 1% SO2 (2 tsp potassium metabisulfite per L) solution.


*Potassium Sorbate* is used to inhibit molds, and yeasts in wine. Also known affectionately as “wine stabilizer”, potassium sorbate produces sorbic acid when added to wine. It serves two purposes. When active fermentation has ceased and the wine is racked for the final time after clearing, will continue fermenting any residual sugar into CO2 and alcohol, but when they die no new yeast will be present to cause future fermentation. When a wine is sweetened before bottling, potassium sorbate is used to prevent re fermentation when used in conjunction with potassium metabisulfite. It is primarily used with sweet wines, sparkling wines and some hard cider but may be added to table wines which exhibits difficulty in maintaining clarity after fining.


----------



## joeswine

SOMETHING FROM ITALY.............


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2...............


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#3......this kit finished outstanding in all aspects and with some aging got even better ... it doesn't always take and expensive kit to make a really good wine,


----------



## joeswine

something* ROSE"* comes your way.
I love Spanish wine so here is a *ROSE"* I thought why not lets play with it and it turned out more than I expected ,I skipped a lot of the fermentation process and got to the heart on this one its at 12% abv, with *dried cherries *and I blended 2 different yeast to create a fine balance of _*fruit*_ and _*structure*_.


----------



## sour_grapes

bumping for my convenience


----------



## joeswine

PINO GRIGIO of any style , one of my favorite whites.....


----------



## joeswine

SPANISH WINES are very cool and very tasty,, here's one for the books..


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2


----------



## joeswine

THE END............and its aging just a little while..


----------



## joeswine

Took Best Of Show In the desert category


----------



## joeswine

How about a very smooth ROSE"........................Phase #1


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#2...…lots of moving parts to this one, follow the flow


----------



## joeswine

PHASE#3..The Fpac turned this into a very special wine.


----------



## joeswine

someone ask me a question on what was used on the caramel port wine kit ,so i just reposted it.


----------



## joeswine

*Caramel port continued.. the key elements here are the fpac,oak tannins and a teaspoon of instant coffee, that's rights instant coffee. and last but not least from Olive Natio*_*n caramel extract*_* ( alcohol emulsion). This will add the bite you'll need to extent the caramel flavor And let it sit for at least one year. Took to best of shows with this one.*


----------



## joeswine

Something white I think? from *Spain .the finish is excellent.*


----------



## joeswine

Phase #2..


----------



## MarcOlivetti

joeswine said:


> *Caramel port continued.. the key elements here are the fpac,oak tannins and a teaspoon of instant coffee, that's rights instant coffee. and last but not least from Olive Natio*_*n caramel extract*_* ( alcohol emulsion). This will add the bite you'll need to extent the caramel flavor And let it sit for at least one year. Took to best of shows with this one.*


Joeswine, how much tannin did you add to the primary?

In your sequence of photos, you are adding the extract after fermentation, when you’re racking to the Carboy; is that correct? How much extract did you add?

I’m starting a Sour Cherry Port (same company as your Toasted Caramel) and want to add a Chocolate extract (also from Olive Nation). I’m trying to time it right and how much to use. Or should I use like backsweetening. I’m very new to this.


----------



## joeswine

1 teaspoon tannins,8ozs. extract secondary.
how many oz.. is the bottle under 8 ozs *(this will take time to balance itself out don't be in a hurry to drink this one *). but not more. no back sweeting should be necessary remember its a desert style port so it's sweet enough, this can be a desert wine excellent if you allow it to be.
.Have fun and keep* (Thinking Outside The Box)*


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## MarcOlivetti

Perfect, Thanks Just what I needed to know. I will add the 1tsp of tannin in the morning and the chocolate extract is 8oz., so everything should work. The plan is for next Christmas season, so it’s all coming together. Thank you for the help!!!


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## joeswine

That's a good plan,around the 6mo. Mark give it a tasting..


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## joeswine

Ho about a Spanish Rose today excellent finish on this one. Would do this one again without a question.


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## joeswine

Phase#2


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## joeswine

THE ITALIAN PRINCE OF WINES... a bit long but it shows the steps


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## joeswine

PHASE#2


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## joeswine

JUST A LITTLE MORE...don't go to sleep


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## joeswine

SOMETHING for the summer. a PEACH BELLINI, out standing made with* fresh peaches*.


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## joeswine

My award winning COFFEE PORT.. 2020's BEST OF SHOW at wine makers Magazine in the dessert wine category.
Easy and tasty after 1 year of aging. the coffee addition starts to give of a choloate Essent's.


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## joeswine

Phase#2* COFFEE PORT*> Patients is the key to this one.


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## joeswine

A touch of FRUIT..


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## joeswine

PHASE#2 .. that was KATE a fellow wine maker with me.


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## Khristyjeff

@joeswine Looks like WineXpert Selection Series has been re-named. Is it now "Classic", "Reserve", or "Private Reserve" ?


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## winemaker81

Khristyjeff said:


> @joeswine Looks like WineXpert Selection Series has been re-named. Is it now "Classic", "Reserve", or "Private Reserve" ?


Yup. 8, 10, and 14 liter kits. The "LE" kits are also 14 liter, and Island Mist is 6 liter.


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## joeswine

Yah, they do that for sales I guess,it's what you do with it that counts ,  .


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## joeswine

its time to put the fruit up for the winter wine making , Fpacs and sealed vacuum bags do the trick.


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## joeswine

something from Spain a Rose" as this one sits it gets very good.


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## joeswine

for those of you who make or use *extracts* and if you don't why not.


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## joeswine

how many have used either an FPAK or an EXTRACT to enhance your wines and how many of you don't understand the usage of either??


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## Brant

joeswine said:


> how many have used either an FPAK or an EXTRACT to enhance your wines and how many of you don't understand the usage of either??



I'm pretty new to wine making. The idea of using fpaks and extracts prior to bottling intrigues me but I am essentially clueless on where to start.


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## joeswine

Hi go back read through tweaking cheap wine kits as well as making an fpak .
Or just ask your questions


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## Khristyjeff

Brant said:


> I'm pretty new to wine making. The idea of using fpaks and extracts prior to bottling intrigues me but I am essentially clueless on where to start.


Yes @Brant Lots of good info on the Tweaking Cheap Kits thread that will answer your questions on f-pacs and other tweaks. Then you can ask questions there and you'll get quick answers. Welcome to WMT!


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## joeswine

knowing why, how, and when to use simple syrup is a great tool in your wine toolbox


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## joeswine

coffee port my winner port easy an extremally taste I have won more contest with this one coast to coast .


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## joeswine

Something very red....


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## joeswine

this port has won enough metals to be a great one when handled correctly


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## joeswine

Phase #2


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## joeswine

You need at least one year in the bottle and the sharpness will mellow out .
Without that bit it’s not oerfect


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