# Chips vs. Cubes



## MedPretzel (Jul 24, 2005)

What's the difference between oak chips and oak cubes?





Thanks!





Martina


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## kaizen (Jul 24, 2005)

exactly what it sounds like. chips are like slivers and or chips
(like playground bark) and the cubes are cubes. There was
an article in Wine Maker mag. Feb-March 2004 called Barrels and
oake alternatives.


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## MedPretzel (Jul 24, 2005)

well, I'm just wondering what the difference is in the wine, not what they look like. Does one or the other have more surface area? Does one prefer one over the other? Are there differences in using them/when you use them?





Those are the differences I was looking for. Sorry if I wasn't explicit enough.





I don't get WineMaker Mag. 





Martina


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## Joseph1 (Jul 24, 2005)

Because of their smaller size, an ounce of chips will have more surface area than an ounce of cubes. The extraction of oak from the chips occurs in a few days. For cubes the extraction takes a few months. Generally the chips are used during primary fermentation to simulate fermentation inoak and cubes during bulk aging to simulate barrel aging.


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## MedPretzel (Jul 24, 2005)

You da man, Joseph! That's exactly what I was looking for. 





Now, what are the pros, cons of oak used in fermentation and ones used in bulk aging?




(one answer generates like 3000 more questions!)


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## Joseph1 (Jul 24, 2005)

I believe oak added during primary would more quickly integrate with the wine resulting in a smoother and less pronounced oak taste. This is why kit manufacturers add the oak chips at primary. Aging on the cubes will give a more pronounced oak taste and require bottle aging to integrate and smoothen. Aging on the cubes will also add to the body and mouth-feel of the wine. All of the pros and cons of doing it one way or the other will ultimately depend onwhattastes best to you.


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## MedPretzel (Jul 24, 2005)

Again, thank you very much, Joseph! You have cleared up a lot of questions I had about oaking. I will do some of my own taste-testing, and see which I prefer. Thanks so much for your help.


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## kaizen (Jul 24, 2005)

Do you want me to copy the article and email it to you?


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## MedPretzel (Jul 25, 2005)

That's okay, but thank you. I think I've got all I need from this forum. 





Very kind of you, though!


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## kaizen (Jul 25, 2005)

No problem.


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## MedPretzel (Oct 26, 2005)

New question, and I just thought I'd tack it on to my previous question about oaking.





I have a concord wine, which I am thinking about oaking (while it's bulk ageing) with oak chips. They are light-roasted oak chips from LD Carlson.


My questions are:


1) Do you think that oaking Concord wine is a good idea?


2.) I have the oak chips soaking (on the package it said to soak them for 12 hours before use) right now. Do I add the water that I have them soaking in to the wine as well, or just the chips? (I have 2 handfuls in about 2 cups of water)


3.) I understand that oaking when bulk ageing takes longer for the oak to impart their flavor on the wine (thanks Joeseph!). What time-frame are we talking about? A year? 6 months? 1 month? 





Thanks everyone!





Martina


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## Dean (Oct 26, 2005)

I asked this same question of the gurus at the RJS retail store near my house. They told me that 2-3 weeks with chips in the carboy during bulk aging should be enough due to the increased surface area of the chips. They told me to taste after 14 days, and if not oaky enough, leave for another week and taste again. 


They warned me that you can always add oak, but never take oak out. If it tasted oaky enough after 2-3 weeks, they said re-rack and then age to let the oak integrate and mellow with the finished product.*Edited by: Dean *


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## Curt (Oct 26, 2005)

Martina,


Add water and all when it's time. How big a batch of wine is it? Two handfulls of chips sounds like quite a lot but I'll bet we have different sized hands.



Concord oaks up just fine but with the chips I'd even check at 1 week. The more end grain that's exposed the faster the transfer rate.


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## MedPretzel (Oct 26, 2005)

It's a 6-gallon batch. I don't have to add it all (and don't forget I have smaller hands than you!).









Thanks for the advice! It's seems so confusing, this oaking, but it probably is just me.


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## jojo (Nov 4, 2005)

Do you reuse oak cubes?


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## geocorn (Nov 4, 2005)

It depends on how long you use them. It takes about 6 months for the wine to extract all of the tannins. If you use them for 2 months in one kit, I do not see why you could not rinse them and put them in another batch.


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## Hippie (Nov 5, 2005)

I agree. Much like using barrels, all the goody will eventually be leached out of them.


I like to use them to smoke meat after they have served their time in the wine.


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## Waldo (Nov 5, 2005)

Heading for the Benton landfill in search of my Oak Cubes


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## Hippie (Nov 5, 2005)

ROFLMAO !!!


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## jcnoren (Nov 13, 2005)

My Chai Maison wine kit containswhatlooks like oak sawdust, I followed the kit instructions and added them to the primary. Going with the increased surface area increased "flavor"will adding oak, in the form of sawdust give the finished product a heavy oak taste? 





JC


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## masta (Nov 13, 2005)

No it will not from what I have experienced from the many kits I have made with this type of oak. 


The length of time in the primary is not along enough to impart a heavy oak taste even with the extra surface area. This sawdust product also lacks in the toasting as with chips or cubes.


Oaking wines seems to be an art and I for one have not mastered it as of yet...but I will continue to work at it!


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## Waldo (Nov 14, 2005)

If I am understanding everything correctly I am reading here then for one to obtain a really oaked presence to their kit wines they would benifit greatly from bulk aging with oak cubes after clearing and stabilizing?


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## masta (Nov 14, 2005)

You got it podner! The trick is to find the right oak and toast and amout of contact time to achieve your goal.


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## jojo (Nov 14, 2005)

masta - I just stabilized a batch of cranberry and added oak cubes. It would make a differenceto wait until the batch cleared?


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## masta (Nov 14, 2005)

jojo,


Are you asking if the cubes can be left in the wine for an extended period of time? Depending on how long your wine is in contact with the cubes will determine the final oak flavor added. Looks like the cubes will continue to impart oak into the wine over an extended period of time so it might be best to taste test it every few weeks.


I went to the manufacturer's site and found some info which i posted below. 


*What would I use for 5 gallon glass carboys to get good oaking results? I usually bulk age both chardonnays and reds for 10-12 months. 
*For new barrel extraction rates, the recommended ratio is 1.5 - 2 lbs of Oak Cubes/Beans to 60 gallons, (i.e. @ 2 - 2.5 oz. for use in a 5 gallon carboy). We always recommend that you start with the lighter ratio for first time use, as you can always add more oak after 8 weeks. We recommend a minimum contact time of 8 weeks to allow for the full integration of the oak flavors. Also, as you will be aging the wine on the Oak Cubes/Beans for a year or so, you may even want to bring the ratio down a little lighter. 


source: http://www.stavin.com/faq.htm


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## jojo (Nov 24, 2005)

Thanks masta. I have the wine on cubes and will wait the 8 weeks, testing every other week to be sure. Actually I was wondering if there was any difference letting the contact begin during secondary or after stabilization. It sounds like contact time is contact time. I've never oaked a batch before. I imagine racking would include rinsing the cubes before putting them into the newer carboy.


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## Waldo (Nov 24, 2005)

You are correct jojo. You want to rinse the cubes wellbetween rackings. Probably not necessary but after rinsing I give mine a light spraydown of meta before I add them back to my carboy.


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## peterCooper (Dec 21, 2005)

Should I oak my cranberry apple? I have some heavy american and medium 
french on order from George. It looks like Il' be stabilizing and fining in 
about a week - 10 days.


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## peterCooper (Dec 21, 2005)

Oh, its a scratch wine so I have plenty of time.


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## Curt (Dec 21, 2005)

Peter,


You can oak any wine that you get a hankering to and are brave enough to try.




You might risk covering up a good bit of the delicate apple taste in your combo though. The cranberry is rowdy enough to hold it's own in most any fight.


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## bilbo-in-maine (Dec 21, 2005)

I can't remember if you did a 5 gallon batch Peter. If so, you could oak a 
portion as an experiment and still leave however many bottles you might 
choose unoaked as pure fruit wine.


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## peterCooper (Dec 22, 2005)

It a 6.5 gallon batch. Silly me, I put in 6 gallons of apple juice in and 
didn't figure the cranberry,raisin, current mixture, the bentonite and 
other things which brought the volume way up. I still have about 6.25 
gallons after transferring to secondary.

I'll be able to get a full 6 gallons without topping up when I rack off of the 
lees when the darn thing stops fermenting. It's been going for 14 days so 
far and getting 1 bloop evey two seconds still.

I can't test the SG because I broke my hydrometer three days ago. I have 
another coming when George can get it out. I bet he's busy a this time of 
the year. Three days ago the SG was 1.010 so I imagine it is below 1.000 
by now. I wanted this to be a pretty dry wine so I'm not planning to 
sweeten it back up. 

If I have enough left over after racking I'll experiment with a 375ml bottle, 
a little a sugar and a pinch of yeast to carbonate. Anyone tried with a 
single small bottle to give me a rough guide to amounts?
*Edited by: peterCooper *


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## NorthernWinos (Dec 22, 2005)

For 6 gallons we use 1 3/4 cup [14 oz by volume]sugar and one package of EC-1118 Champagne yeast.....so do the math....Think if you just want to do a smaller amount...lets say....take 3/4 of a gallon of wine.....1.7 oz of sugar [dissolved] [I think that is 10.2 teaspoons] and 1/8 package of yeast [rehydrated]....I think there is about 2 teaspoons of yeast in each package, but you could weight it out on a diet scale. If you want to do even a lesser amount just divide and check the amounts......Check all these figures...or ask Masta....he is good at sums.


We get a lot of bubbles and lees in the bottles, and have to disgorge them.....We tried a batch once with less sugar and put a few [un-re hydrated] grains of yeast in each bottle and got no bubbles...so it was a good lesson.


Be sure to use beer bottles and crown caps, or champagne bottles with crown caps or plastic stoppers and wire...lots of pressure in there.

This is the Site we used to get started.....


http://honeycreek.us/makingsparklingwine.htm


Good luck with the Apple bubbly...it's the best!!!!*Edited by: Northern Winos *


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