# Vacdegassing: Spinoff has anyone imploded a carboy



## rshosted (Jan 13, 2007)

I ask this becuase I am curious at how many bars of pressure an empty carboy can handle vs. a full one? 

I am planning on going to a store today to buy a vacuum pump (probably manual). I have not had *ANY* luck in my drill stir technique. I seem to always have a little gas in my wine. So I figure it's time to try something else. 
I also have a 6.5 gallon carboy that I got years and years ago, that was used by my older brother (years and years ago). Today, I noticed it has a hairline crack in the bottom. It almost looked like a construction flaw it's so small. It hold liquid and does not leak. 

Theoretically I could still use it for wine. Or I could fill it up with water and try to implode it to see what the tolerances are






I figure if it handles up to whatever the pump takes, I can try it empty for Sh*** and gigles. 

I also think it has a few things that are inherantly going to make it 'weaker' than a fresh carboy. One- its age. two- the hairline crack in the bottom (though that is the thickest part). Three- the higher altitude I am at (about 4500ft.). four- the temperature outside (since it's below freezing yet again



)

Any suggestions on this little experiment? I will probably put the carboy in a heavy duty clear garbage bag prior to the 'experiment'.


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## masta (Jan 13, 2007)

Ryan, 
A quick search through the archives and I found this info which should help.



From jobe05:
If I may steal a phrase from Waldo:


Whaaaaaaaaaaaa Whoooooooooooooooo


Boy did I have a brainstorm of an idea.


Take 1 -11 year old, and your wife's vacume bag sealer and what do ya get! 








An extreme DeGassing Machine!


About 5 seconds after this picture was taken, the friggen bottle imploded



Luckily, it gave out right on the bottom rim, very evenly so it only leaked a little, then I slid it to the edge of the table and back into the bucket that I had just cleaned...... Now have back in a bottle..........


The good thing...... It's de-gassed!


The bad thing....... I know have Joe's Orange mead on my ceiling, and muscadine all over the kitchen floor........ Cranberry wine is next......... I wonder what my kitchen will end up tasting like in a year!









Dean posted this:
25" of mercury (hg) is well within tolerance of standard carboys. The recycled 1 gallon jugs that everyone uses may not be the same strength/thickness of glass that most carboys use. Tim V. when he uses his vacuum keeps his at 25" of hg and goes for lunch while it is under pressure. I've kept many of my carboys at 25" or as close as I could get it for hours at a time. I've not done that to 1 gallon jugs because they are light enough for me to pick them up and shake the heck out of them, which does just as good a job at degassing as the vacuum does. I think that someone did a test on a carboy and found that it was about 450" of hg before they would implode when full. Just remember to have enough liquid in the carboy at least to the shoulders before you start to vacuum so that the liquid inside can resist the pressure. Also check your carboy for weak spots, and small cracks. If you can detect any, don't vacuum it!


Again,I would not do this for 1 gal jugs, but actual carboys that are 2 gal or higher with thick glass!*Edited by: masta *


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## rshosted (Jan 13, 2007)

Thanks Masta, saved me a big mess and time spent cleaning....

Now, here is my next question:
I have one of those bag sealers too. I was thinking of using it. Does anyone have any idea of what type of vacuum they can create? I doubt I would ever use it on a 1 gal bottle after reading about waldos experience, but I've used it hundreds of times on 750ML bottles and splits without a problem. 

I wonder if it gets enough vacuum to degas a 5-6.5 gal carboy? 

Maybe I shouldn't buy a manual vacuum if I have the bag sealer one already.....

Has anyone used on of these on a 5 gallon carboy? If so, how did you adapt the fitting to work?

Thanks in advance,
-R


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## PeterZ (Jan 13, 2007)

My biggest question is what would happen if the wine foams up and runs up the tube to the vacuum bagger? Will that ruin the bagger?

Carboys do not implode, they are crushed by air pressure. Remember that light bulbs have vacuum inside, and are resisting the same air pressure.


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## masta (Jan 13, 2007)

Not sure of the amount of vacuum the bag sealer will create but I would be very careful and adding a in-line gauge might prevent a very huge mess.

Pulling a vacuum on a non-rated vessel such as a carboy is risky and would use caution especially if you can't measure it.I have seen large s/s tanks and 20,000 gallon rail cars crushed like a tin can by pulling vacuum on them.


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## Funky Fish (Jan 17, 2007)

Martina has modified a vacuum bag sealer in the past, I believe.


I'd think you just watch the foam level and turn it on/off as the foam rises/falls.


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## sangwitch (Jan 17, 2007)

i received the latest copy of wine maker magazine today and there's an article in there about this topic. "Operating in a Vacuum. Alternate degassing for wine kits."


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## rshosted (Jan 17, 2007)

Thought I would post this for ya'lls intertainment. I asked FoodSaver about my FoodSaver vacuum packer:


Dear Mr. Shosted,


Thank you for contacting Jarden Consumer Solutions.


We appreciate your interest in our FoodSaver products.


FoodSaver appliances pull a vacuum equal to 24 inches of Mercury at sea level (24Hg = 0.813 bar).


You state in your email that you wish to preserve using a 5-gallon
jug. It is important to remember that vacuum packaging does not
replace refrigeration or freezing of perishable items.


If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us
through our toll free number, 1-800-777-5452. Our hours are 8 am - 8
pm Monday through Friday, and 9 am - 6 pm Saturday, Eastern Time.


Sincerely,


Ann Savacool

Jarden Consumer Solutions</font>


Though, my brother is a handy experimenting kind of guy. He was using his FoodSaver for something else and had reason to measure the vacuum with a vacuum guage he had. He said he only pulled about 15 inches.... 

Now I'm not sure if it would hit the 25's I was hoping for or if he is correct. I have to assume he is right for my altitude maybe???? And FS is at a perfect altitude and weather conditions in a 'perfect' environment.


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## Wade E (Jan 20, 2007)

Used the mighty vac for the first time, awesome and so easy.Here is the
Cherry getting degassed. The first one is just hooked up. The 2nd one
is under vac.


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## jobe05 (Jan 20, 2007)

Wade, I'm glad you got one and tried it. I love mine and use it all the time, on every batch. Even during the clearing stage, I think it help, beause the bubbles arn't there to kkep things suspended. I also use it when I bottle. You'd be surprised of how much more air/co2 will come out of the wine in each bottle. 


(PS: On the 750ML bottles, I take it to 27HG)


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## Wade E (Jan 20, 2007)

I bought it from your reccomendations Jobe! Thanks!
*Edited by: wade *


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## rshosted (Jan 21, 2007)

Can someone post a pic of thier mighty vac and what they cost normally?
Thanks,
Ryan


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## jobe05 (Jan 21, 2007)

Ryan: 


Here a picture of one that is on ebay right now for $44.95 (plus shipping).








you won't need the bottle and other stuff shown, but it comes with the pump. I did different searches on Ebay when I got mine (miss spelled words, Brake bleeder, break bleeder, mighty Vac etc.....) Got mine for $24 from someone who couldn't spell.......... Wait........ I can't spell..............


I would recommend the metal one, and it's rebuildable. I think Wades is a plastic one but is not rebuildable. Mine is about a year old and is starting to lose some of it's pressure holding abilities.*Edited by: jobe05 *


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## Wade E (Jan 21, 2007)

Yes it is the plastic one.All you need is the bleeder pump(big thing),
one hose shown coiled up, and the biggest fitting shown on the bottom
left.


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## jsmahoney (Jan 21, 2007)

That looks complicated!



How exactly does this work? I see the pictures of wade and the one in progress. Is it complicated? I'm interested in this and would like to learn more. Any down to earth class or explanation? PeterZ if you see thisplease, refrain from calculation comment!


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## Wade E (Jan 21, 2007)

Its very simple.

1) Attach hose supplied with tool and biggest fitting supplied with tool to gun like in picture 1.








2) Then attach fitting into bung hole and I mean the one on top of your carboy.



Pic 2


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## Wade E (Jan 21, 2007)

3) Pump until you reach about 18 on the gauge and wait a second as the
bubbles will start surfacing fast. You can gradualy take it up to 25 on
the gauge. I reccomend not going any higher as this is what Ive read on
this forum. Pic. 3 you can see the bubbles being pulled up. I just
leave it on and pump it back up to 25 every once inawhile . I started
yesterday and its almost done right now!


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## jsmahoney (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks Wade! I can do that!



A picture is worth a thousand words! That helps me a lot! Thanks!



*Edited by: jsmahoney *


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## jobe05 (Jan 21, 2007)

Wade:


When you get the opportunity, try it on a wine that is clearing, see if it clears faster for you. Also do it a bottling, on each bottle after it's filled. I did 30 bottles of Washington-Columbia Valley Reisling today that has been sitting for over 2 months, with weekly vacumes being pulled on it. Friday night I pulled 25HG and let it set for 24 hours, didn't drop a bit. At bottling I was amazed at how much more came out.


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## Wade E (Jan 21, 2007)

Will do Jobe! My Cherry is still going but it is also very cold down
there. 60* in my basement and thats why I had to get brewbelts today
now that the cold weather has really set in here now!


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## ScubaDon (Jan 21, 2007)

Jobe,
Have you been able to find a bung small enough to fit into a wine bottle. Yesterday at our local store he didn't have any that small. 
Don


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## Wade E (Jan 21, 2007)

#2 Scuba!


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## ScubaDon (Jan 21, 2007)

Man!, I thought I was #1!!!
I guess the store in Durham just didn't have any.


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## jobe05 (Jan 21, 2007)

Wade's right Scuba, it's a #2. I have an assortment of many sizes laying around (on a peg board) so that I can put wine in anything and be able to put an airlock on it, and if I can't, I keep 2 wine glases hanging there as well........... 


I went to my local brew shop also yesturday. All summer it has been hard getting in and out of his store due to his expanding his store. Now I finally go there and the new section is all beer, and the old section of the store hasn't changed at all, except he has taken some of the wine making supply area and turned it into beer making supplies.


So here we have George, Older, more refined with a good business sense, getting rid of beer and and sticking with what he knows best. Then we have a young man who is taking over Dad's wine store and wants to get out of wine and wine making to only handle beer and beer supplies............ Go figure.*Edited by: jobe05 *


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## Wade E (Jan 21, 2007)

Hey Scuba, check this out!



Here at finevinewines.com, we have 14 sizes of bungs 
(rubber stoppers) for your wine making needs. If you are 
not sure which one you need, use the table below to find 
the right bung.


<table ="tableNew" align="center" border="2" bordercolor="#0033cc" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100">

<t><tr ="#ffff00"> 
<td> <div align="center">Bung Size</td>
<td> <div align="center">Bottom Diameter (cm)</td>
<td> <div align="center">Top Diameter (cm)</td>
<td> <div align="center">Avg. Diameter (cm)</td>
<td> <div align="center">Avg. Diameter (in.)</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">2</td>
<td><div align="right">1.6</td>
<td><div align="right">1.9</td>
<td><div align="right">1.75</td>
<td><div align="right">11/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">3</td>
<td><div align="right">1.8</td>
<td><div align="right">2.2</td>
<td><div align="right">2</td>
<td><div align="right">13/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">5.5</td>
<td><div align="right">2.4</td>
<td><div align="right">2.8</td>
<td><div align="right">2.6</td>
<td><div align="right">1</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">6</td>
<td><div align="right">2.7</td>
<td><div align="right">3.2</td>
<td><div align="right">2.95</td>
<td><div align="right">1-3/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">6.5</td>
<td><div align="right">2.8</td>
<td><div align="right">3.4</td>
<td><div align="right">3.1</td>
<td><div align="right">1-1/4</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">7</td>
<td><div align="right">3</td>
<td><div align="right">3.8</td>
<td><div align="right">3.4</td>
<td><div align="right">1-5/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">7.5</td>
<td><div align="right">3.1</td>
<td><div align="right">3.9</td>
<td><div align="right">3.5</td>
<td><div align="right">1-3/8</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">8</td>
<td><div align="right">3.3</td>
<td><div align="right">4.1</td>
<td><div align="right">3.7</td>
<td><div align="right">1-7/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">8.5</td>
<td><div align="right">3.6</td>
<td><div align="right">4.3</td>
<td><div align="right">3.95</td>
<td><div align="right">1-9/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">9.5</td>
<td><div align="right">3.8</td>
<td><div align="right">4.6</td>
<td><div align="right">4.2</td>
<td><div align="right">1-5/8</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">10</td>
<td><div align="right">4.3</td>
<td><div align="right">5</td>
<td><div align="right">4.65</td>
<td><div align="right">1-13/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">10.5</td>
<td><div align="right">4.5</td>
<td><div align="right">5.3</td>
<td><div align="right">4.9</td>
<td><div align="right">1-15/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">11</td>
<td><div align="right">4.9</td>
<td><div align="right">5.6</td>
<td><div align="right">5.25</td>
<td><div align="right">2-1/16</td>
</tr>
<tr> 
<td><div align="right">11.5</td>
<td><div align="right">5</td>
<td><div align="right">6.3</td>
<td><div align="right">5.65</td>
<td><div align="right">2-1/4</td>
</tr>
</t>
</table>




Here are several comments that might also help.



The multi-size stopper (#2235) and the #6.5 fit all 
of the carboys we sell.
The #6 works well with the glass jugs.
The #2 and #3 fit standard wine bottles.


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## Coaster (Jan 21, 2007)

I use the vacuvin and a carboy cap. Place a vacuvin stopper over the bigger hole in the cap (which is over the carboy opening) and pull a vacuum with the vacuvin.


http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=4317


http://www.finevinewines.com/ProdDetA.asp?PartNumber=14604


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## rshosted (Jan 21, 2007)

I have one of those and it works pretty well, though can be a workout on the arm






Does anyone know how many inch lbs the Vacuvin pulls?


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## Dean (Jan 22, 2007)

I can get up to 17 or 18" with the vacuvin. I broke my plastic mityvac handle a while ago. Luckily, replacements can be found for as little as $2 per handle. Now I just bulk age about 1 year and the gas problem goes away.


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## PeterZ (Jan 23, 2007)

I have one of those brake bleeder kits, too. $24 at Autozone. Can't use it for wine, though. Already used it on the brakes!!

While it is not necessary to use the little brake fluid catcher bottle, it is not a bad idea. That way, if it foams up fast on you, the wine bubbles will stay in the bottle, and not get into the pump.

All-in-all, though, I must say I am really satisfied with the whip. Since it has a stopper attached, air won't get into the carboy. I got fully degassed to my (and the clarifying agents in the kit) satisfaction in about 10 minutes. 30 seconds in one direction, 30 seconds in the other. Repeat every other minute until no more gas rises.

The drawback to vacuum degassing is that it takes time to pull the gas from the bottom of the carboy. The only thing at work is diffusion, which is slow.

Vacuum is dandy, but agitation is quicker. (OK, it doesn't rhyme!)


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## Wade E (Jan 23, 2007)

Question Peter, If it has a stopper attached, how does the gas get out?
Yes the vacuum seams a little slower but I think the combo works real
well, better than just the drill attachment as I went to town on the
black Currant and went through 2 18 volt batteries and a good amount of
time and the vac. really finished it off nice!


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## PeterZ (Jan 24, 2007)

Wade, the stopper is hard palstic and doesn't seal well. I think it is mostly there to keep the shaft centered. I used my el-cheapo 9.6v drill and didn't wear out the battery. I will admit, though, that it did sit in the secondary from 11/15 - 12/4. I then racked into another carboy (sucking up lots of solids - no tip on the racking cane) before using the whip, so I imagine a lot of degassing took place as I racked.

Two weeks after degassing and fining, I had 1/2" of very dense lees on the bottom of the carboy. Racked again, carefully this time, topped up with 500 ml of water, and put in a solid stopper, sealed with electrical tape. (I no longer have a source of Parafilm, which is the greatest sealer.)

I must have done good, because I can detect no floating dust in the carboy, and no deposits on the bottom. I was just looking at it. With the lights out and the door closed I shined a flashlight (3 D cell) across the carboy. No sign of light. Shining it through directly at me, I could see the light, but there was NO light scatter that I could detect. Even with the flashlight down at the bottom (the carboy is up on wedges) it was clear.


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## masta (Jan 24, 2007)

Good job Peter!



and you bring up a very good point about letting the the wine sit in the carboy extra time before degassing. 


In my personal opinion one problem with following the schedule supplied by the kit makers is that they are telling you how to get the wine from start to finish and in the bottle ASAP and successfully every time. This isn't always an issue or nor is it wrong but can cause some to have trouble with the degassing stage since you are trying to force a large volume of dissolved CO2 out of your wine. I know from experience as well as other have seen that a completely fermented batch will almost completely degas on it's own over time without doing anything.


The bottom line: If you have trouble degassing your wine and it seems like it takes way too much effort give it an extra week after the fermentation is complete to degas some on it's own and the task should be easier.


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## Wade E (Jan 24, 2007)

I think my problem is that the temp in my basement is very cold right
now. The fermented wines are at 60* and that is probably to cold to do
a good degassing huh? I didnt have this problem that I know of in the
summer.


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## masta (Jan 24, 2007)

Yes that is a problem since a cooler liquid will hold more dissolved gas. Need to bring upstairs so the temp is closer to 70 to degas and then back to the basement.


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## Wade E (Jan 24, 2007)

I need an elevator or a dumbwaiter now. I need to build a new house around my new hobby or just get a new back!


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## PeterZ (Jan 30, 2007)

Wade, you are patient with your wine making. When I made wines 20 years ago I had never heard of degassing. It was not an issue, because the wines sat in a carboy under an airlock long enough to degass on their own.

Time heals all.


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