# Starting my wine building



## Arkansan07

My wine hobby has gotten too big for the house, especially with a newborn at home. I just purchased a custom metal building to use for my wine making. I'll post updates as it comes along if anyone is interested. Ran my wires and boxes for my outlets today and starting rafters tomorrow. Here are a few pics, all windows are double pained and the rear window is 3x3' im going to install a heat and air unit in it. The building itself is 12x24x8(wall)


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## ibglowin

Looks good! I would advise you to insulate, insulate, insulate to help mitigate temperature swings and so you can keep it as cool as possible during the long periods that you will need AC cooling in AR. I wouldn't even worry to much about heat. Perhaps just pick up a portable space heater down the road in case your room temps fall below 55 and so you can quickly heat the room while you work in it, then shut it off etc.


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## bkisel

I'm interested in following the progress. Thanks...


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## Kraffty

Nice size area. I double and triple ibeglowin's suggestion if you hadn't already planned on it. Without insulation your heating and cooling will really struggle at working. Looks like a good start, keep up the notes and pictures, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Mike


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## olusteebus

gonna be nice


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## Arkansan07

I plan on insulating as it does get hot as hell here, but it also gets bitter cold. It was 5 degrees a few nights ago and didnt get above 30 for a few days


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## vacuumpumpman

very nice - !

How do you plan on keeping it the temperature stable thru that 
type of climate ?


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## Arkansan07

lots of insulation and a unit thats rated for way more than 288 square ft


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## vacuumpumpman

Arkansan07 said:


> lots of insulation and a unit thats rated for way more than 288 square ft



Fantastic !!
I can't wait till see when it is all done ! 

Keep us posted please !


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## bkisel

Will it have running water?


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## kevinlfifer

WOW! All I was allowed was a 2x10 closet for a cellar and 5x10 in the boiler room for a "wine kitchen". You get a whole building. Your wife must be the BEST!


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## salcoco

if the building is way over air tight be careful of humidity in the winter. Had a winery where we sprayed in the insulation to about 3 inches in some places ended up 5 inches. it was so airtight that had to open window in winter to keep humidity down used a heat pump for heating and cooling. this is located in Kansas City area.


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## jswordy

Boy, I HOPE it has water. That would be rough if not.

I'd suggest a PTAC/heat pump unit (Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner and heat pump).

You are going to have to install plastic (vapor barrier) the hard way, from the inside. I'd go with the plastic against the metal, then your insulation batts. If you don't do this, or if you insulate and then go plastic vapor barrier, the metal can condense moisture inside and wet your insulation, destroying its ability to insulate. 

Attic eave foam vents may be an easier route for you: (http://www.google.com/shopping/prod...src=17588969&gclid=CLeQntyPlMMCFSgV7AodjB4Asg) Install between your studs to ventilate the metal and keep the wool off it.

I have an uninsulated metal storage building, and it literally rains inside in spring and fall in the right conditions.


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## terrymck

Too late now but using 2x6's would have allowed more insulation. Around R20.

Terry


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## Putterrr

3 words

spray foam insulation


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## Arkansan07

jswordy said:


> Boy, I HOPE it has water. That would be rough if not.
> 
> I'd suggest a PTAC/heat pump unit (Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner and heat pump).
> 
> You are going to have to install plastic (vapor barrier) the hard way, from the inside. I'd go with the plastic against the metal, then your insulation batts. If you don't do this, or if you insulate and then go plastic vapor barrier, the metal can condense moisture inside and wet your insulation, destroying its ability to insulate.
> 
> Attic eave foam vents may be an easier route for you: (http://www.google.com/shopping/prod...src=17588969&gclid=CLeQntyPlMMCFSgV7AodjB4Asg) Install between your studs to ventilate the metal and keep the wool off it.
> 
> I have an uninsulated metal storage building, and it literally rains inside in spring and fall in the right conditions.



I was planning on using the rolls of R13 fiberglass with vapor barrier already included. It may not be the best choice though. Also planning on blowing in about 14-16" of cellulose in the attic.

Lol my wife is just happy im making room in the house

I will have updated pics tomorrow


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## Arkansan07

Got all the rafters done and breaker box mounted. OSB and roll in fiberglass coming for the walls tomorrow. Found a cool 12gal 120volt hot water heater at Lowes I will be installing when I get to the plumbing.


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## Putterrr

If those are screws you have in the plates on your rafters, i would look at replacing them with or adding allot more nails. galvanized joist hanger nails would be better. The problem with screws is that they have very little shearing strength. they also rust over time which further weakens them.


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## sour_grapes

Putterrr said:


> If those are screws you have in the plates on your rafters, i would look at replacing them with or adding allot more nails. galvanized joist hanger nails would be better. The problem with screws is that they have very little shearing strength. they also rust over time which further weakens them.



Putterrr, is it safe to say that you meant drywall screws, in particular? I agree those have insufficient shear strength. Construction screws (i.e., yellow screws) would be fine, right?


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## NorCal

Ark, awesome project! Do you have a layout you could share? Subscribed to the thread.


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## NorCal

...and how much wine do you plan on making? Barrels?


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## JohnT

I would install a trap door leading to that attic area so that you can use that space for storage. You can NEVER have enough storage space!


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## Arkansan07

the attic is actualy very tiny, barely room to crawl in if i had to. All it has to hold is blown in insulation. The building is only a 12x24, not as big as it looks. Got my wall insulation up today.


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## Arkansan07

those are 1.5" interior wood screws, also there are plates on both sides. Lol im no master carpenter, but i can hang on a single rafter and im chunky


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## Putterrr

Was just sayin. Screws unless specifically designed for joist hangers have little shear strength. I do see that your ceiling is not structural and will only be supporting drywall/OSB/plywood. You would be surprised what time and gravity can do. Lookin good and moving along quickly.

cheers


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## Arne

Arkansan07 said:


> lots of insulation and a unit thats rated for way more than 288 square ft


 
If you get one that is too big, it will not run enough to take the humidity out In the summer. Also, it can give you too big of temp. swings, comes on, over shoots the temp too much, then you have to wait for it to cool Down or heat up before it comes back on. Arne.


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## oldwino54

I would suggest the spray type foam insulation. With 4" inch walls and ceiling you will not get much of a batt in there!! Looks great,jealous!!!


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## oldwino54

didn't see the photo with insulation,my bad. If your collar ties,bottom cord of rafter are well attached to ext. walls you'll be fine.........enjoy


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## Arkansan07

Arne said:


> If you get one that is too big, it will not run enough to take the humidity out In the summer. Also, it can give you too big of temp. swings, comes on, over shoots the temp too much, then you have to wait for it to cool Down or heat up before it comes back on. Arne.




I didnt know that, ill check into that.


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## Arkansan07

Arne said:


> If you get one that is too big, it will not run enough to take the humidity out In the summer. Also, it can give you too big of temp. swings, comes on, over shoots the temp too much, then you have to wait for it to cool Down or heat up before it comes back on. Arne.




didnt know that, ill check into that.


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## Arkansan07

hey guys aint forgot about the thread, was out of town for a few days. Going to work some more this week on the building


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## richmke

If you get a high capacity de-humidifier, you can use it to heat and dehumidify the room during the winter. You need a high capacity one because they will work at lower temps.


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## bkisel

Any picture updates?


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## Arkansan07

not yet, hoping to work some today and the rest of the week. Had great weather last week so I had to work.


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## Arkansan07

ok guys its been slow going this week with my 2 month old but I have gotten some done. Most the walls are up just a little finishing around the windows and breaker box. Got my ground wire buried and a box and wire ran for my AC.


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## bkisel

Looks like it is coming along nicely. Thanks for the pictures.


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## Boatboy24

Is that a giant conical fermenter in the third pic?


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## Arkansan07

Boatboy24 said:


> Is that a giant conical fermenter in the third pic?




lol now i know what to do with that old thing


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## richmke

Buried wire - be careful. I recall something about covering the wire with a metal plate.


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## Floandgary

I'd be guessing you're feeding 220VAC with direct burial grade wire. Woulda suggested a bit deeper (30-36") or thru plastic conduit. Never know when someone might decide to dig


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## Arkansan07

Floandgary said:


> I'd be guessing you're feeding 220VAC with direct burial grade wire. Woulda suggested a bit deeper (30-36") or thru plastic conduit. Never know when someone might decide to dig



Yea any other time I would, but its the family property and there wont be anyone digging here. Also a cattle pen used to sit there and we are going to get more gravel put there to park a little equipment on


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## Arkansan07

got some good work done yesterday and some this
morning. Went to the hardware store today and got all my insulation and osb for the ceiling. Hoping to get it all done tomorrow after church.


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## Arkansan07

finally all the insulation and walls/ceiling are done. Starting on paint soon.


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## bkisel

Looks like it is coming along really nice.

What kind of insulation is that in the second picture? I've never seen that.


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## sour_grapes

I agree with bkisel -- looking nice!



bkisel said:


> Looks like it is coming along really nice.
> 
> What kind of insulation is that in the second picture? I've never seen that.




It is blown-in cellulose, I believe.


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## Arkansan07

sour_grapes said:


> I agree with bkisel -- looking nice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is blown-in cellulose, I believe.



yep blown in, it was a dirty job lol


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## Runningwolf

Good insulation. I did that for 15 years. Did you use proper vent in the eves to get ventilation?


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## Arkansan07

Runningwolf said:


> Good insulation. I did that for 15 years. Did you use proper vent in the eves to get ventilation?



you will have to explain to me what you mean exactly.


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## Floandgary

A couple of vents at the peak on both ends will allow that little space above insulation to breathe. Less likely for moisture/mold to form. Small interior should be easy to keep at a somewhat constant climate. Nice job!


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## grapeman

Proper Vent is a name for a special baffle that goes in at the eaves and allows air to move through the eave vents and up to the ridge vent without being blocked by the insulation. If you don't use it the roof can get a bad moisture buildup on it and lead to mold, etc.


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## sour_grapes

Uggh. I spent a few too many hours in my 100 deg attic this summer retrofitting insulation baffles during my interminable roofing project. (Also see here.) If you decide to do that and are interested in some tips, PM me.


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## Floandgary

Eave vents typically used in conjunction with passive ridge venting. Serves to prevent moisture/mold formation,, heat buildup and subsequent roofing material deterioration. Sheeting will warp and shingles will bake and curl. Not so much a problem in your case, but moisture might be. As suggested, think about a couple of vents on the end gables.


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## Arkansan07

ok ill install a vent on each end. Shouldnt be hard to do at all


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## richmke

My personal favorite is a ridge vent.


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## Arkansan07

Got primer plus 3 coats of paint done. Working on the vinyl floor tomorrow. Several posts back we discussed the climate down here briefly. We have wild weather swings. Can be 105 in the summer with 80% humidity. It was 65 yesterday here and its 21 right now.


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## Bartman

Back at Post #17, you said you would be "get to the plumbing" later including installing a 12 gal water heater. I don't see any plumbing outlets/drains in here. Not being critical - I was just really curious how much more complicated this project would be with plumbing added too - I'm sure it would make the whole thing at least 50% more challenging. Seems a little late to get floor drains in now...


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## Floandgary

Surface mounted plumbing, sink drain thru the wall,, a snap! Floor drain not necessarily necessary


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## Arkansan07

Bartman said:


> Back at Post #17, you said you would be "get to the plumbing" later including installing a 12 gal water heater. I don't see any plumbing outlets/drains in here. Not being critical - I was just really curious how much more complicated this project would be with plumbing added too - I'm sure it would make the whole thing at least 50% more challenging. Seems a little late to get floor drains in now...




Well im happy to have critics because i am no builder and it keeps me thinking. I asked my dad the same question way back because I assumed I would do it when i did the wiring. He explained that since its not being plumbed to a sewer system I can just go straight through the floor and run a drain pipe out. My water will hook up to the building from an outdoor spigot. Guess I will see how well that works out, Im trusting him on it I guess.


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## grapeman

I am sure that the building will be a tremendous improvement over the closet you have and I refrain from too many comments on it but I would like to make one comment. That building looks like it was purchased complete and you are finishing it off so you need to work with what you got. The roof would never work here in the north, but may be alright in Arkansas. The rafters have no overhang and until you added the ceiling joists to act as collar ties the roof would not support hardly any weight. Then the metal roofing was put down horizontally instead of vertically with no furring strips or purlins. If it rains hard, the rain will back up to the screws and if they aren't sealed well may leak. If you get freezing rain or snow it will not slide off the roof at all. 

Sorry if I seem critical - I don't mean to- just speaking as someone who has many years drafting experience.


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## Arkansan07

grapeman said:


> I am sure that the building will be a tremendous improvement over the closet you have and I refrain from too many comments on it but I would like to make one comment. That building looks like it was purchased complete and you are finishing it off so you need to work with what you got. The roof would never work here in the north, but may be alright in Arkansas. The rafters have no overhang and until you added the ceiling joists to act as collar ties the roof would not support hardly any weight. Then the metal roofing was put down horizontally instead of vertically with no furring strips or purlins. If it rains hard, the rain will back up to the screws and if they aren't sealed well may leak. If you get freezing rain or snow it will not slide off the roof at all.
> 
> Sorry if I seem critical - I don't mean to- just speaking as someone who has many years drafting experience.



yea man I honestly dont know lol. They sell buildings like this left and right down here. Snow never really gets deep here, 12" max. The screws are the kind with the rubber gasket washer.


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## jswordy

The screws are not going to leak if they are tight and driven square, and if they are screwed into the flats of the metal rather than the ridges. I have a 40x40 building I built with metal siding and those screws.

What you may experience, though, is water dripping from your metal roof onto your insulation during the spring and fall months when it is humid and there's a wide swing in temps. I have a 26x30 someone else built with uninsulated metal and it rains inside when the temps change. 

Little can be done about the shed now. The roof tin would have to be removed and a double-bubble form of insulation installed under it, then refastened. I suppose alternately, you could tack plastic up from inside on the undersides of the rafters, but that would catch and hold water near the wood then.

I know this type construction inside and out now, and know all the drawbacks and places to watch out.

Double bubble under walls and roof...





Interior fiberglass roll insulation...


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## Arkansan07

jswordy said:


> The screws are not going to leak if they are tight and driven square, and if they are screwed into the flats of the metal rather than the ridges. I have a 40x40 building I built with metal siding and those screws.
> 
> What you may experience, though, is water dripping from your metal roof onto your insulation during the spring and fall months when it is humid and there's a wide swing in temps. I have a 26x30 someone else built with uninsulated metal and it rains inside when the temps change.
> 
> Little can be done about the shed now. The roof tin would have to be removed and a double-bubble form of insulation installed under it, then refastened. I suppose alternately, you could tack plastic up from inside on the undersides of the rafters, but that would catch and hold water near the wood then.
> 
> I know this type construction inside and out now, and know all the drawbacks and places to watch out.
> 
> Double bubble under walls and roof...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interior fiberglass roll insulation...



I plan on installing a vent as was suggested earlier. Will this help me with condensation much?


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## Bartman

Arkansan07 said:


> Well im happy to have critics because i am no builder and it keeps me thinking. I asked my dad the same question way back because I assumed I would do it when i did the wiring. He explained that since its not being plumbed to a sewer system I can just go straight through the floor and run a drain pipe out. My water will hook up to the building from an outdoor spigot. Guess I will see how well that works out, Im trusting him on it I guess.


I hadn't thought of that - since you are dealing on only 'graywater' (water you can spread on a yard) rather than 'blackwater' (you can probably guess what's in that), you could just drain it into your yard or a ditch. I would recommend locating it far enough away that it doesn't create a mudhole where you walk, or puddle and back up against your house/other structures. Seems like there could be some real freeze danger in that water line from the house though...


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## Arkansan07

Bartman said:


> I hadn't thought of that - since you are dealing on only 'graywater' (water you can spread on a yard) rather than 'blackwater' (you can probably guess what's in that), you could just drain it into your yard or a ditch. I would recommend locating it far enough away that it doesn't create a mudhole where you walk, or puddle and back up against your house/other structures. Seems like there could be some real freeze danger in that water line from the house though...



the water hook up is a simple spigot inside a meter box. I dont plan on leaving it hooked up. Its very easy to access


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## Arkansan07

will finish floor today, had a little sweat from the heater keeping me from finishing uesterday


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## NorCal

Turning out great!


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## Floandgary

Movin' right along there arkansan07! Thanks for your willingness to keep all of us "experts" posted,, LOL! Now for the wine..


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## Arkansan07

Making some good progress. Purchased some surplus cabinets and counter top yesterday and go to pick it up tomorrow. Here is a pic of where I am now. Lights are LED and no heat up time.


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## richmke

If you had used unfinished solid American, French, or Hungarian oak floor, you could have saved the dust from the sanding to add you your wine


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## JohnT

Looks like you are coming into the home stretch!

Looks great! Here is what I see that you need going forward..

Leather recliners, 
a small fridge, 
a wall mounted HDTV. 
a wine glass rack, 
bottle racks, 

oh and a caution sign.. 

M A N C A V E 
No women or children allowed


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## Bartman

JohnT said:


> Looks great! Here is what I see that you need going forward..
> 
> Leather recliners,
> a small fridge,
> a wall mounted HDTV.
> a wine glass rack,
> bottle racks,



Uh, JohnT, your list omitted the WINE !!


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## Arkansan07

I am nearing completion, supposed to get 6" of snow today so running my drain and water will wait.


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## Runningwolf

Looking good!


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## sdelli

Looks great! You came a long way in a couple months!


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## cimbaliw

Very Nice space Arkan07


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## GreginND

A lot of hard work is really showing!!!

Just a question - will you have another washtub sink in the place? I don't see how you can fit a carboy in that one.


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## roger80465

cimbaliw said:


> Very Nice space Arkan07



Just noticed you are from GR. I grew up in Byron Center and lived in Wyoming and Kentwood until 1979 when I moved to Denver. I miss the people but not the winters!


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## ibglowin

Agree with Greg, a Mop sink is a MUST for cleaning carboys and loads of bottles! That sink won't cut it!


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## PhilDarby

Some of you guys/gals have amazing winery areas, I live in a one bedroomed flat and can only look in awe and think right i need to sort some kind of storage here.

Looking great there ;-)

That loft might be good for some long term storage of stuff as well, out of the way maybe ?


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## Arkansan07

plannng on doing all my major cleanup outside on the concrete slab, hopefully that sink will cut it for a quick rinse. Window unit finally came in, pics to come later in the week


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## Kraffty

Great Progress, I have to agree with the sink comments though. I can guarantee you that adding a free standing tub sink (less that $100.00) at one end or the other of that counter top will be invaluable to you every time you work out there. Even rinsing your raking canes takes a bigger space than your steel sink provides. Keep posting away, many of us know how exciting building your own wine space can be and you seem to be doing an outstanding job.
Mike


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## kevinlfifer

This sink was $26 Home depot. It came with legs but I wanted it in the counter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-Kitc...957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48adf24d

I got the faucet on ebay $53, and the bottle washer from midwest supplies $2.95

I know you already cut the counter, but I got a miss-ordered 10' counter for $25


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## Floandgary

Noticed you mentioned that you plan on doing all of your cleaning outside on the concrete pad. Well did you remember that concrete has an inordinate attraction to glass and a rotten disposition for smashing said glass into useless pieces? Hope you are planning on at least a piece of indoor-outdoor carpeting the size of the cleaning area


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## Arkansan07

ill consider all the advice on the sink, wouldnt be hard at all to pur on in.


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## Arkansan07

kevinlfifer said:


> This sink was $26 Home depot. It came with legs but I wanted it in the counter.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-Kitc...957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48adf24d
> 
> 
> 
> I got the faucet on ebay $53, and the bottle washer from midwest supplies $2.95
> 
> 
> 
> I know you already cut the counter, but I got a miss-ordered 10' counter for $25




$&[email protected] I never could find a nozzle that cheap. All the ones I saw like that were like 200 bucks


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## Arkansan07

kevinlfifer said:


> This sink was $26 Home depot. It came with legs but I wanted it in the counter.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-Kitc...957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48adf24d
> 
> 
> 
> I got the faucet on ebay $53, and the bottle washer from midwest supplies $2.95
> 
> 
> 
> I know you already cut the counter, but I got a miss-ordered 10' counter for $25




$&[email protected] I never could find a nozzle that cheap. All the ones I saw like that were like 200 bucks


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## sdelli

kevinlfifer said:


> This sink was $26 Home depot. It came with legs but I wanted it in the counter.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-Kitc...957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f48adf24d
> 
> 
> 
> I got the faucet on ebay $53, and the bottle washer from midwest supplies $2.95
> 
> 
> 
> I know you already cut the counter, but I got a miss-ordered 10' counter for $25




Nice! Love the sink idea.


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## Zintrigue

Updated pics on this? I'm fascinated...

-Zin


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## Amanda660

Ditto on the update! Would love to see how it looks!


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## Floandgary

Consider ,,,,, sink was designed for support from the bottom (legs). Obviously it will work, as you have shown, inserted in a counter top, but is the lip of the sink strong enough to support a load of water and bottles? Not to say anything would happen but if there's room you might want to consider some support from underneath. JMHO. Otherwise it looks decent and quite functional!


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## bchilders

I am planning to do the same for outdoor building. Will run a drian line along the wall and out to the back since it will only have grey water throught it. From your picks, you project looks great. 



Arkansan07 said:


> Well im happy to have critics because i am no builder and it keeps me thinking. I asked my dad the same question way back because I assumed I would do it when i did the wiring. He explained that since its not being plumbed to a sewer system I can just go straight through the floor and run a drain pipe out. My water will hook up to the building from an outdoor spigot. Guess I will see how well that works out, Im trusting him on it I guess.


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