# Why do my wines always stop fermenting as soon as I transfer them to secondary?



## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

Why do my wines always stop fermenting as soon as I transfer them to secondary?

Ex.
Zinfandel 
Starting SG-unknown 
SG at end of Primary 1.000
SG at end of Secondary 1.000 (stabalized at the end of about 5 days straight at 1.000)

Jalapeno/Apple Base
Starting SG-1.082
SG at end of Primary 1.002
SG after 1 day of Secondary 1.002

Cab Franc
Starting SG-1.095
SG at end of Primary 1.003
SG after 1 day of Secondary 1.003

Merlot
Starting SG-1.094
SG at end of Primary 1.001
SG after 1 day of Secondary 1.004

What should I do in this case? Add yeast nutrient and stir?


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2011)

ABe:

What temperature do you have them at in the carboy? Do you add anything (like K-meta or sorbate) when transferring to carboy?

I know sg is more important than time, but how long did these wines have in the primary?

Steve


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## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

What temperature do you have them at in the carboy?
>>72 deg.

Do you add anything (like K-meta or sorbate) when transferring to carboy?
>>No

I know sg is more important than time, but how long did these wines have in the primary?
>>4-4.5 days


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## Runningwolf (Jan 6, 2011)

Next time you might try leaving them in the primary then entire time and see what happens. I know this doesn't answer your question and it's not what I do but others on the forum successfully do that.


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## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

Correction, only the Jalapeno was at 72 deg, the grape ones were at 64 deg, thats too cold I'm assuming?


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## cpfan (Jan 6, 2011)

abefroman said:


> Correction, only the Jalapeno was at 72 deg, the grape ones were at 64 deg, thats too cold I'm assuming?


YEP. 72 is good but 64 is cold. The fermentation will continue but very slowly. How long have you been waiting for the wine to ferment down in the carboy? It could take weeks. But I don't have any experience with it. I keep mine about 72-74F.

Steve


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## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

cpfan said:


> YEP. 72 is good but 64 is cold. The fermentation will continue but very slowly. How long have you been waiting for the wine to ferment down in the carboy? It could take weeks. But I don't have any experience with it. I keep mine about 72-74F.
> 
> Steve



Just 1 day so far.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 6, 2011)

lack of o2 as well in addition to temp

also racking off lees whilst going from one vessel to the other means remaining viable yeast is disposed of


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## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

How long does secondary usually last for yall?


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## AlFulchino (Jan 6, 2011)

each wine is different....this is nothing you want to rush...ever.....the best part of wine making is admitting to yourself that you should let it rest and do its thing...its the easiest thing to do yet the hardest....but...in the end aging is the very best thing a wine can have in its making except for one...starting w good grapes and blends


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## Minnesotamaker (Jan 6, 2011)

Another thing that can mislead new winemakers is if they have an airlock on their primary and they are used to seeing the constant blub-blub-blub of the airlock. The reason the airlock bubbles is because the wine is saturated with carbon dioxide. Since the wine has too much CO2 dissolved in it, it is forced out as a gas and bubbles to the surface. When you move the wine from the primary to the secondary, you are agitating the wine. This encourages a higher than normal release of the dissolved CO2 (like shaking a bottle of soda). Once the wine is in the secondary, it is again sitting still and may have the ability to hold new dissolved CO2. Couple this with the fact that your wine is fermenting more slowly, it may take a few days before your wine reaches CO2 saturation and the airlock starts bubbling again.


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## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> each wine is different....this is nothing you want to rush...ever.....the best part of wine making is admitting to yourself that you should let it rest and do its thing...its the easiest thing to do yet the hardest....but...in the end aging is the very best thing a wine can have in its making except for one...starting w good grapes and blends



At some point won't it need to be sulphated though? After about how long?


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## Wade E (Jan 6, 2011)

Its one reason I ferment to dry in the bucket and my wines always go below 1.000 except for that dang W.E Choc Raspberry kit which always stops before its supposed to. I know every trick from every forum for keeping this going and tell everyone about these tricks and most get it down to where its supposed to but not me!!!


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## abefroman (Jan 6, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Its one reason I ferment to dry in the bucket and my wines always go below 1.000 except for that dang W.E Choc Raspberry kit which always stops before its supposed to. I know every trick from every forum for keeping this going and tell everyone about these tricks and most get it down to where its supposed to but not me!!!



Do you use an airlock on the bucket towards the end?


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## Wade E (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes, I actually keep the lid on the whole time and just open it daily and stir or punch down depending on what Im fermenting. I have a cat that will get right into the wine if I dont snap the lid down.


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Yes, I actually keep the lid on the whole time and just open it daily and stir or punch down depending on what Im fermenting. I have a cat that will get right into the wine if I dont snap the lid down.



Lol, I was wondering about that, I have a cat too, she doesn't seem to go near the wine though.


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

Minnesotamaker said:


> Another thing that can mislead new winemakers is if they have an airlock on their primary and they are used to seeing the constant blub-blub-blub of the airlock. The reason the airlock bubbles is because the wine is saturated with carbon dioxide. Since the wine has too much CO2 dissolved in it, it is forced out as a gas and bubbles to the surface. When you move the wine from the primary to the secondary, you are agitating the wine. This encourages a higher than normal release of the dissolved CO2 (like shaking a bottle of soda). Once the wine is in the secondary, it is again sitting still and may have the ability to hold new dissolved CO2. Couple this with the fact that your wine is fermenting more slowly, it may take a few days before your wine reaches CO2 saturation and the airlock starts bubbling again.



Thanks!

I noticed some bubbles in the carboy, but the airlock doesn't have much action yet.


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

I think I'll top off the carboys bring up the temp a little and then if I don't see an SG change in a couple weeks degas, sulphite and stabilize, does that sound right?


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## Dugger (Jan 7, 2011)

As others have mentioned you could let it ferment completely in the bucket. If you want to transfer to the carboy, do it when the SG is around 1.010 when the yeast is a little more active rather than down around 1.000. Also, don't be afraid to bring over some sediment to the carboy from the bucket.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 7, 2011)

abefroman said:


> At some point won't it need to be sulphated though? After about how long?



typically every three to four mos you would make your sulfite addition...usually in the 5 gram per 5-6 gallons.....but that is just a general rule....sulfite testing is advisable


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

Dugger said:


> As others have mentioned you could let it ferment completely in the bucket. If you want to transfer to the carboy, do it when the SG is around 1.010 when the yeast is a little more active rather than down around 1.000. Also, don't be afraid to bring over some sediment to the carboy from the bucket.



Thanks, good tips there.


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## Lurker (Jan 7, 2011)

Dugger said:


> As others have mentioned you could let it ferment completely in the bucket. If you want to transfer to the carboy, do it when the SG is around 1.010 when the yeast is a little more active rather than down around 1.000. Also, don't be afraid to bring over some sediment to the carboy from the bucket.


What is the downside of allowing it to ferment out in the primary on top of the sediment? b


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

Lurker said:


> What is the downside of allowing it to ferment out in the primary on top of the sediment? b



It can oxidize due to the large amount of air contact, which is what I'm trying to avoid. I had a batch oxidize already, but that was due to low acid. It still drinkable and most people don't notice it oxidized a little, if you drink wine a lot you can tell though.


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## AlFulchino (Jan 7, 2011)

i dont mean to disagree...but you should never see a wine oxidize if you let it ferment to dry whilst in the primary.....once it is dry however, that is all it should remain in the primary...co2 levels will have decreased and that is what is protecting the wine...so get it under airlock and resume whatever it is you intend..oak/stabilize etc

but fermenting to dry is not enough time to oxidize

in fact as a test last yr i left 1.5 gallons of wine in a three gallon carboy for over 6 mos..it was a white wine...my la prima frutta...it was the excess from a larger tank...i properly stabilized AFTER fermenting to dry.....left it under airlock for all that time...no oxidation...zero, none, nada...i am not advising you to do this...just making the point that if you handle the wine right and stabilize then wine is very forgiving


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

AlFulchino said:


> i dont mean to disagree...but you should never see a wine oxidize if you let it ferment to dry whilst in the primary.....once it is dry however, that is all it should remain in the primary...co2 levels will have decreased and that is what is protecting the wine...so get it under airlock and resume whatever it is you intend..oak/stabilize etc
> 
> but fermenting to dry is not enough time to oxidize



Thanks! Make sense.


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

For the 2 that I have in secondary now, should I go ahead an stabalize them?


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## AlFulchino (Jan 7, 2011)

what i personally do w my harvest is ferment to dry outside or earlier if i am trying to retain some sweetness......so now we have two groups

the dry will be racked into the winery and i let settle for another 1-1.5 mos....at this point it is decision time..some i rack off into another thank and apply oak and some k meta and argon if needed.....others i let remain on lees but apply oak, stabilize and argon if needed...now its aging time

if it retains some sweetness then once in teh winery it is immediately stabilized, oaked and gassed if there is headspace......i wont rack this again until i am satisfied w oaking or i bottle months down the road.....

each particular wine has its own nuance and needs...but thats a quicky....and always monitor sulfite level


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## Dugger (Jan 7, 2011)

Lurker said:


> What is the downside of allowing it to ferment out in the primary on top of the sediment? b



None that I know of - I quite often do this, although I start out under a loose lid until a SG of about 1.010 and then put it under a tight lid and airlock to finish. My point was that if you are going to transfer to the carboy to complete fermentation then I would do it at about 1.010 rather than 1.000 - keep in mind I do mostly kits.


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## Dugger (Jan 7, 2011)

abefroman said:


> For the 2 that I have in secondary now, should I go ahead an stabalize them?



Once they have completed fermentation and the SG doesn't change over a couple of days, then yes, you should stabilize them. I would think you should get down to around 0.996 for the Cab Franc and Merlot.


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## cpfan (Jan 7, 2011)

abefroman said:


> For the 2 that I have in secondary now, should I go ahead an stabalize them?


abe:

I am surprised that I don't see a comment here from someone saying...
"follow the three P's" Patience Patience Patience.

It seems to me that you are rushing your wines. Give them time, and they will be much better.

According to your initial post, you have 3 in secondary. Warm them all up, and then wait at least a week (10-14 days or more even better). Take some more sg readings over 2-3 days. Then decide if it is time to stabilize.

BTW the Merlot and Cab Franc are apparently kits. Why aren't you following the instructions? I know that sg is more important than time, but time is also important, as is temperature. I don't even think about stabilizing a kit until day 20-30.

Steve


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

cpfan said:


> abe:
> 
> According to your initial post, you have 3 in secondary. Warm them all up, and then wait at least a week (10-14 days or more even better). Take some more sg readings over 2-3 days. Then decide if it is time to stabilize.
> 
> ...



Will I have to worry about oxidation, if no/little C02 is being produced when I haven't sulphated?


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## ajhughes (Jan 7, 2011)

Wade E said:


> Yes, I actually keep the lid on the whole time and just open it daily and stir or punch down depending on what Im fermenting. I have a cat that will get right into the wine if I dont snap the lid down.


Do you find when you stir kits every day or so that they have a tendency to ferment more quickly? I've taken a similar approach and all of my kits have fermented to below 1.000 days early than the kit instructions suggest. Is that to be expected?


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## wvbrewer (Jan 7, 2011)

Will fermenting to dry in the primary cause any off flavors or will aging in a secondary take care of that issue? I know that a few people will let finnish out in the primary.


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## cpfan (Jan 7, 2011)

abefroman said:


> Will I have to worry about oxidation, if no/little C02 is being produced when I haven't sulphated?


I don't think so. The wine contains a lot of CO2 because you haven't degassed yet. BTW, the 64F wines will hold even more CO2 than the 72F wine.

Steve


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## abefroman (Jan 7, 2011)

cpfan said:


> I don't think so. The wine contains a lot of CO2 because you haven't degassed yet. BTW, the 64F wines will hold even more CO2 than the 72F wine.
> 
> Steve



Cool, thx!!


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## Midwest Vintner (Jan 8, 2011)

IMHO, i wouldn't let it ferment completely dry. I mean, 1.005 or so and i feel it's necessary to start protecting it from O2. it also depends on the wine. An apple, pear or similar has a much faster oxidation rate than red wine would. I would just error on the side of caution. if it stops early and it then sits in open air for 10 hours, that's not good. if you are around it most of the day and check it often (maybe twice a day), than it probably will be fine.

also, nobody has asked about the yeast. how are you storing the yeast and how old is it? what type or brand is being used? are you testing the acid? gotta keep your little workers happy or sometimes they'll slack on you! lol. some yeasts don't do bad in 60F temps. we've been keeping our winery in the low 60's and using lalvin 1116 for some wines without any issue. in fact wine temps usually gets up to 75-80F, so it's probably better in that case to keep it a bit cooler. 

also, are you stirring enough? sometimes that can really help. 

although, what others have said is probably right, i thought i'd put some other ideas out there. everyone does their own thing with wine and that's the BEST thing about it.


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## abefroman (Jan 8, 2011)

Midwest Vintner said:


> IMHO, i wouldn't let it ferment completely dry. I mean, 1.005 or so and i feel it's necessary to start protecting it from O2. it also depends on the wine. An apple, pear or similar has a much faster oxidation rate than red wine would. I would just error on the side of caution. if it stops early and it then sits in open air for 10 hours, that's not good. if you are around it most of the day and check it often (maybe twice a day), than it probably will be fine.
> 
> also, nobody has asked about the yeast. how are you storing the yeast and how old is it? what type or brand is being used? are you testing the acid? gotta keep your little workers happy or sometimes they'll slack on you! lol. some yeasts don't do bad in 60F temps. we've been keeping our winery in the low 60's and using lalvin 1116 for some wines without any issue. in fact wine temps usually gets up to 75-80F, so it's probably better in that case to keep it a bit cooler.
> 
> ...



Its from a kit, Lalvin EC-1118, I used it as soon as the kit came. Should I switch to 1116?

I didn't stir too much except to break up the cap, should I stir the bottom up daily as well?

I didn't test the acid, I assume the kit make did that for the juice and will test once I start bulk ageing.


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## abefroman (Jan 8, 2011)

After shaking the tube to degas my reds are both at 0.999 and the jalapeno is at 1.000.

The reds have some bubble action in the carboy, but the airlock isn't really moving.


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