# Vines for central Missouri



## Stressbaby (Sep 18, 2016)

Tomorrow the fence guys come to finally, after 19 years living in this location, fence off the back 3 acres to keep the cattle out. My intention is to plant some vines here, along with some blackberries and elderberries.

The site is full sun, high on a hill, with clay soil typical of our county (we have a long history of brick production, to give some idea of the clay soil). We have a deep well so will be able to irrigate. 

I'm thinking equal numbers of red and white. Around here I typically see a lot of Catawba, but also Vignole, Traminette, Seyval, Chambourcin. Not much Norton.

Thoughts on Traminette as the white?

Thoughts on Chambourcin versus Norton as the red?

It looks as if based on my reading I could do a high cordon, SCBC trellis system for both.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.


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## Norton (Sep 18, 2016)

Lots of Norton near me in the Columbia area. I would grow that as my red. Plenty of demand for it. I know someone who grows traminette. My preference would be Vidal Blanc for the white.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 18, 2016)

Norton probably takes less work than Chambourcin. However, I think Chambourcin makes the better wine. I agree with Vidal Blanc over Traminette. Since you are so near Columbia, you might be able to get the folks at MU to come out and give you some pointers on the grape growing. They know quite a bit about the area.


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## wfournier (Sep 18, 2016)

Curious why you guys prefer in Vidal over Traminette? I'm not questioning your choice, just looking for some elaboration. I have had a few Vidals and a couple Traminettes and personally preferred the Traminette, but I'm a little new to all this as well. I'm thinking about planting some Traminette so I have a vested interest in the op's question.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 19, 2016)

For me, if it's the type of wines I prefer to drink. A dry traminette isn't very good at all. But a dry Vidal can be quite good. And I like a little oak in my wine as well. Don't try that with traminette. It will destroy the light fruity flavors.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 19, 2016)

cmason1957 said:


> For me, if it's the type of wines I prefer to drink. A dry traminette isn't very good at all. But a dry Vidal can be quite good. And I like a little oak in my wine as well. Don't try that with traminette. It will destroy the light fruity flavors.



My wife's favorite wines are Marlborough NZ Sauv Blanc. Does that change the decision? I'd like to go with the grape that comes closer to that profile.


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## cmason1957 (Sep 19, 2016)

I'm not really sure that either Traminette or Vidal Blanc get you very close to a Sauv Blanc. 

Here's some tasting notes I checked,just to be sure - Sauv Blanc: Pungently aromatic, New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc assails the senses with red capsicum (bell pepper) and gooseberry characters through lush passionfruit and tropical fruit overtones, other notes include fresh cut grass, tomato stalks, grapefruit or limes.

Traminette: Crisp and spicy Alsatian-style white wine with a lovely floral aroma and hints of lime and Golden Delicious apple. You are the daughter of that spicy bad girl of the royal vinifera clan, Gewürztraminer, and that dependable hard-working fellow Seyval Blanc. Your father’s restraint and strong backbone are clearly evident, but you do have your mother’s zest for life. You are a perfect spring garden of floral scents whipped by the winds of enchantment. A Princess Diana of the grape world. On the outside, you appear to be the quiet and obeying wife, but on the inside there is a fire that longs to seduce all who venture to know you.

Vidal Blanc: In Missouri, dry styles of Vidal blanc are often full-bodied with a buttery mouthfeel that can be similar to Chardonnays that have gone through malolactic fermentation. The wine also tends to have noticeable acidity, similar to Seyval blanc, with well-made examples from favourable vintages tending to have a long finish. The wine produced from Vidal blanc tends to be very fruity, with aroma notes of grapefruit and pineapple.

Actually, peaceful bend winery down near St. James says their Vidal is similar to a Sauvignon Blanc or Pinot Grigio., so may that means something. None of the ones I have had would I put in that category, but who knows.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 19, 2016)

Ok thanks I appreciate that feedback.


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## marquettematt (Sep 25, 2016)

First off, I'd warn against elderberries near vines. I believe there's a passage in the book _The Grape Grower that mentions elderberries as a source of grapevine disease. I don't grow elderberries so I can't say that is accurate. Norton vs chambourcin- a previous reply described Norton as low maintenance. That couldn't be more accurate. It's the only varietal I have that doesn't need ANY spray, even in bad years. If I were further south I wouldn't bother doing this but I put my Norton on VSP/ leaf thinning for maximum heat accumulation but I know of no one else that grows Norton as latitudinally north as I do but I'm sure there are some._


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## garymc (Sep 27, 2016)

So, solve the mystery for us. How far north are you?


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## Stressbaby (Sep 27, 2016)

marquettematt said:


> First off, I'd warn against elderberries near vines. I believe there's a passage in the book _The Grape Grower that mentions elderberries as a source of grapevine disease. I don't grow elderberries so I can't say that is accurate. Norton vs chambourcin- a previous reply described Norton as low maintenance. That couldn't be more accurate. It's the only varietal I have that doesn't need ANY spray, even in bad years. If I were further south I wouldn't bother doing this but I put my Norton on VSP/ leaf thinning for maximum heat accumulation but I know of no one else that grows Norton as latitudinally north as I do but I'm sure there are some._


_

Thanks this is good info. And I will research the elderberry issue._


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## cmason1957 (Sep 27, 2016)

garymc said:


> So, solve the mystery for us. How far north are you?



She is located basically in Mid-Missouri. Almost even with the St. Louis area.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 28, 2016)

cmason1957 said:


> She is located basically in Mid-Missouri. Almost even with the St. Louis area.



"She" is a "He" if you are talking about me. I thought Gary was asking about MarquetteMatt.

cmason, are you by chance getting any grapes or juice from StL Wine and Beermaking this week?


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## cmason1957 (Sep 28, 2016)

Stressbaby said:


> "She" is a "He" if you are talking about me. I thought Gary was asking about MarquetteMatt.
> 
> cmason, are you by chance getting any grapes or juice from StL Wine and Beermaking this week?



Whoops Sorry. I will blame it on drinking. And he may have been talking about someone else. 

I am not getting any juice/grapes from them, at least not quite, yet. I have, in the past, stopped by the next day and picked up what someone else ordered, but didn't pay for. My wife and I have quite a stick built up and have slowed down a bit. By that I mean only 550 lbs of Chambourcin and St.Vincent this year and probably no extra fruit wines.


I live in O'Fallon, MO and would love to have you stop by, if you have the time when you are down this way picking up your juice.


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## garymc (Sep 28, 2016)

Yes, MarquetteMatt was who I meant. 
I was just at St. Louis Wine and Beermaking yesterday. I left a note on their bulletin board that I can supply frozen muscadine grapes.


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## marquettematt (Sep 28, 2016)

Indiana. Due east of Indianapolis.


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## MisterEd (Sep 29, 2016)

Here in north central Arkansas growing those tight clustered vignoles is a PITA. I don't care how much you spray them. Especially with the summer monsoon season we have been experiencing lately (climate change?). Grape bunch rot (bbr) is really hard to control. I didn't even pick my vignoles this year due to rot. They will be transferred out with vidal instead starting next year. Cynthianna is hands off except for controlling leaf roller, but i still spray them along with the other varietals. Vidal & vignoles is susceptible to aphids I have discovered.


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## Stressbaby (Sep 30, 2016)

MisterEd said:


> Here in north central Arkansas growing those tight clustered vignoles is a PITA. I don't care how much you spray them. Especially with the summer monsoon season we have been experiencing lately (climate change?). Grape bunch rot (bbr) is really hard to control. I didn't even pick my vignoles this year due to rot. They will be transferred out with vidal instead starting next year. Cynthianna is hands off except for controlling leaf roller, but i still spray them along with the other varietals. Vidal & vignoles is susceptible to aphids I have discovered.



Mister Ed,
Please clarify...Are you swapping out Vignole for Vidal? Or getting rid of both?

A grower a mile from me says Vignoles is one of the most difficult to grow. Everything likes Vignoles - raccoons, birds, fungus. Lost 30% of his Vignoles to birds this year despite propane cannons, etc. I'm not considering Vignoles.


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## MisterEd (Sep 30, 2016)

Stressbaby said:


> Mister Ed,
> Please clarify...Are you swapping out Vignole for Vidal? Or getting rid of both?
> 
> A grower a mile from me says Vignoles is one of the most difficult to grow. Everything likes Vignoles - raccoons, birds, fungus. Lost 30% of his Vignoles to birds this year despite propane cannons, etc. I'm not considering Vignoles.



I'm replacing the vignoles w/ vidal. My Landot Noir comes to ripeness first in my vineyard and that is the one varietal that the birds get excited about. It's the only one I have to net.


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## hounddawg (Oct 1, 2016)

LOL you tell them,,, i did that to mismost, 
i felt an inch tall
Dawg






Stressbaby said:


> "She" is a "He" if you are talking about me. I thought Gary was asking about MarquetteMatt.
> 
> cmason, are you by chance getting any grapes or juice from StL Wine and Beermaking this week?


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## treesaver (Nov 7, 2016)

Yes, I'd like to know that also! Here in NE Ks, I'm growing Norton, and while I've made some very good drinking wine from it, I find very little info out there about making wine from Norton grapes. Would like to see more or maybe I'm not looking in the right places. So far, I've made my wine just like I've made Cab Sav in the past, and would like to see more written about it!


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