# CAB wine BAD SMELL



## massimo15 (Nov 14, 2010)

I crushed California cab grapes in sept. Its now in secondary and it has like a sulfer smell to it? Is that normal for cab grapes


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## Racer (Nov 14, 2010)

It is not a usual smell for a cab or any other wine to have a sulphur or rotten egg aroma to it. Try splash racking the wine into another carboy.


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## Wade E (Nov 14, 2010)

Sulfur like, if its really a sulfur smell then you need to aerate by splash racking but sulfite it if it hasnt been done so yet. Sulfur smell is due to a few things like insufficient nutrients while fermenting or possibly oxidation from not having your wine topped up while sitting. If splash racking doesnt seem to fix it much then you will need to use a copper pipe or wire to stir your wine with as the copper seems to attract these H2S molecules reducing or ridding your wine of this problem.


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## JohnT (Nov 15, 2010)

Wade, 

I have been told that using copper pipe is more dangerous than doing a simple copper sulfate test trial. 

The theory being that copper is the poisinous element in copper sulfate. With a copper pipe, you have no way of controlling the amount of copper added into your wine. I do not know for sure if this is a real concern, since most water systems use copper pipes. 

The adivse is to pour 100ml samples into 5 different containers. The first sample, the control, you leave alone. Put .1cc of copper sulfate into second sample, .2ccs into the second, 3ccs into the third, and so on. Stir or agitate each sample and wait 5 minutes. Then smell each to determine at which point the copper sulfate removed all traces of sulfur smell. Take that sample and scale the dosage up to the amount of wine you want to treat. 

The method above ensures that you add just enough copper sulfate to get the job done.


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## winemaker_3352 (Nov 15, 2010)

I would just start with a good splash racking and see what happens. If the smell is still there - then look at options to eliminate the H2S. Like said above - sulfite it if it has not been done yet.

Did you add yeast nutrient or energizer in?


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## Wade E (Nov 15, 2010)

Copper is the dangerous part of the equation but its not seperating from the pipe in those kind of quanities unlike a slip of hand with the sulfate. Almost every still used even today and almost all pipes are also copper.


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## jashworth9372 (Nov 15, 2010)

Wade, just curious, what would cause the sulfur smell from not "topping up"..?


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## JohnT (Nov 16, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Copper is the dangerous part of the equation but its not seperating from the pipe in those kind of quanities unlike a slip of hand with the sulfate. Almost every still used even today and almost all pipes are also copper.



Wade,  

My thinking too. If copper is good enough for water, stills, and cooking utensels, then why would copper treatment in this fashion be considered dangerous? 

Perhaps putting pennies in your wine (for months at a time) might not be such a hot idea, but certainly short exposure to copper pipe should be OK. 

johnT.


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## massimo15 (Nov 16, 2010)

Thanks alot for all the info


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## Calamity Cellars (Nov 17, 2010)

The number one wine flaw, by far, is oxidation. Be careful splash racking. I would hate to see you trade one wine flaw for another.

The cardinal rule with any wine addition is to add the least amount possible to achieve the desired results. The problem with all of the solid copper options (stirring with a pipe, dropping in pennies, splash racking over copper sheets, etc.) is that you have no way to measure the amount of copper that gets into your wine. A much better method is to get some copper sulfate solution, do a bench trial on a small quantity to determine the amount needed, and then make a proportional addition to the rest of your wine. More wine has a neat little bench trial kit and the solution I am referring to. 

Good luck

http://morewinemaking.com/search/103322


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## Wade E (Nov 17, 2010)

Im in the corner on this one. I really dont think that stirring with a pipe can release anywhere near what could be too much other wise we should b dead on the ground.


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## Wade E (Nov 17, 2010)

jashworth9372 said:


> Wade, just curious, what would cause the sulfur smell from not "topping up"..?


There are a few reasons for winding up with HS problems, one of them is a bacterial infection usually due to improper sanitation or improper S02 in a wine to keep bacteria in heck. Another reason is to much S02, usually from grapes being treated on the vines or in shipping with spray sulfites. The most common reason is lack of proper nutrients during fermentation.


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## JohnT (Nov 18, 2010)

Calamity Cellars said:


> The number one wine flaw, by far, is oxidation. Be careful splash racking. I would hate to see you trade one wine flaw for another.
> 
> The cardinal rule with any wine addition is to add the least amount possible to achieve the desired results. The problem with all of the solid copper options (stirring with a pipe, dropping in pennies, splash racking over copper sheets, etc.) is that you have no way to measure the amount of copper that gets into your wine. A much better method is to get some copper sulfate solution, do a bench trial on a small quantity to determine the amount needed, and then make a proportional addition to the rest of your wine. More wine has a neat little bench trial kit and the solution I am referring to.
> 
> ...





Oxidation is a problem, but if you maintain proper amounts of tannis, and the proper levels of SO2 and acid, The chance of oxidation is greatly reduced! 

This (quote above) is exactly what I have heard from a number of people. I always do trials. Determine the best copper sulfate dosage, then pre-measure into a graduated beaker before adding to the wine. 

The question here is... Can a home wine maker on a limited budget and limited access to supplies make do with a copper pipe? Based on other responses, short exposure to copper pipe will not be toxic and CAN cure the problem. 

I would first try a simple splash racking (you should be OK with 1). 

If that does not work, and you can get your hands on some 1% copper sulfate solution, perform the trail that is described in the quote above and also in my response to this thread on 11/15.

If you do not have access to coppersulfate solution, then try using a copper pipe.

HydrogenSulfide (if left unchecked) can lead to big problems in your wine. After time, the compounds that form (mercaptans) are considered as "Bounded" and not so easily dealt with. If you have that "rotten egg" smell, it simply must be dealt with right away. To add to what Wade has said, there are some preventative measures....

These is my "rules of thumb" in preventing hydrogensulfide problems.. 

1) 99% of the time, yeast breakdown is the cause of hydorgensulfide production in wine. Yeast breakdown is typically the process where yeast cells devour other yeast cells, producing that nasty sulfur compound in the process. Like Wade said, Hydrogensulfide can be caused by outside bacteria, but this is highly unlikely if you have practiced even the most superficial of sanitary practices. 


2) Prevention: Use a good, high quality yeast. If the packet says "montrochet" anywhere on it, THROW IT AWAY!!!!. This yeast is very prone to yeast breakdown. 

3) Use Yeast nutrient at the start of fermentation! If you start to smell hydrogensulfide, then add another dose. 

4) Rack (the non-splash variety) the wine as soon as a racking will benefit the wine. That layer of dead yeast has got to go as soon as possible, even if the wine is still a little cloudy. My Mantra... Rack eaarly, Rack often. I first rack as soon as the fermentation slows to a crawl, I then rack again 2 weeks later, then 2 months later, then 1 year later.


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## massimo15 (Nov 22, 2010)

I have racked and the smell did get better. I very sure that all my containers were cleaned. So what do I do now?


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## Rock (Nov 23, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Im in the corner on this one. I really dont think that stirring with a pipe can release anywhere near what could be too much other wise we should b dead on the ground.



I agree with Wade.I had the worst h2s problem this year then i have ever experienced.While fermenting.it stared when my must was at around 15 brixs and it stunk real bad.im taking like bad rotten eggs.I did all my additions of nutrients like i always do,i just think my must got way to hot to quick.It also stunk real bad after splash racking.So i used a copper pipe and copper wire the smell got less and less.Now after mlf is done and 1more big huge splash racking.Smell is gone!!!The copper funnel also helped my brother a few years ago with his wine.


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## JohnT (Dec 16, 2010)

shaunmedrik said:


> The "king" of the world’s red wine grapes, cabernet sauvignon originated in the Bordeaux region of France, but also produces superlative wines around the globe, including California, Washington State, South America, Eastern Europe, and Australia. In California, the finest renditions generally come from the Napa Valley.



So what is your point? <Not sure how this comment fits with the discussion above>


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## Rock (Dec 16, 2010)

JohnT said:


> So what is your point? <Not sure how this comment fits with the discussion above>



I was thinking the same thing!


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## Wade E (Dec 16, 2010)

True but,,,,


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## almarques7 (Jan 12, 2011)

my cab was the same way, after secondary i de-gassed it with the whip that attachs to the drill... no more sulfur (rotten egg) smell


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## PAwinedude (Jan 12, 2011)

*Concur.......But!*

Agree with all that has been said regarding this issue but.....

The sulfur smell you are referring to often occurs as a result of yeast that are in a "stressed" environment during primary fermentation. In other words, the yeast aren't working at maximum efficiency. 

Did you follow directions regarding must temperature during fermentation?...For CAB, it could/should be in the 75-80 degree range. Temps too low or too high will contribute to the stressed environment above.

Also, don't be overly confused with the term splash racking. For carboy purposes this means, placing your siphon tube at the mouth of the carboy or bucket during transfer. 

Splash racking takes on an entirely different meaning when you are dealing with high volume tanks and larger diameter hoses.


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