# New Vineyard Prep



## havlikn

I am planning on planting an acre of grapes this spring. I am doing soil tests this week to confirm the make up of the soil. From records off the NRCS I know the soil is a sandy loam soil. Speaking with a farmer in the area whose family has farmed the soil for over 6 generations said the soil is a sandy mixture with a ph from 6.8 to 7.2. While I wait to get the soil tests completed to confirm the makeup of the soil, I was wondering peoples thoughts if I need to reduce this soil ph?

Also, I am planning on having the soil chisele plowed and leveled by the farmer. My research has me leaning towards companion grass for a ground cover. I know the ideal situation would have been to start this in the fall, but the opportunity arose to get it taken care of this spring. Will I be alright starting the vines and companion grass given the soil is not an issue? The land is mainly level with a slope in a few areas.

Thanks


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## grapeman

The pH is higher than needed but you can live with it. You don't mention what kind of vines you are planting. Vinifera likes the pH a bit higher than the hybrids do. 
What was planted on the field last year?
A lot of unanswered questions here and an acre of vines to start with will keep you busy for the next few years.
More information would help us help you more.


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## havlikn

I plan to plant half Edelweiss and half Marechal Foch. I have debated planting Marquette over the Edelweiss, but like the idea of planting a white as well.

The land is in a cycle of hay, with hay next year and the remaining acres to stay in hay for the next couple of years.


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## grapeman

Are you planning on making wine from them yourself or are you looking at selling the grapes? If you are making it for yourself, make what you like. If you are growing them to sell, make sure there is a market for the grapes first before deciding on varieties.

Hay is good and you should not have a problem with spray residue like you might get from corn or soybeans. You say hay next year. Do you mean in the grapes? Not a very good idea if so. It will compete with the young vines for moisture and nutrients and could smother out the small vines. Then you would have a very hard time harvesting the hay. If you just plan on mowing with a bush hog or lawn mower, that would work also.


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## havlikn

The plan right now is to sell and harvest some of the grapes. The Edelweiss is the grape I am somewhat concerned with the market, but not the Foch and Marquette as local wineries are in need for these grapes.

There are 17 acres total of hay. We are taking away one of the acres with the intent to plant the companion grass as the cover crop. I'm concerned about the growth of the hay overtaking the vines, so I thought the companion grass would be adequate to cover the ground.


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## grapeman

Sounds good. The companion grass in it sounds better than keeping hay in the vineyard.

Good luck with the project.


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## TicinoVintner

Soil should be prepared in the fall before planting unless you don't plan to dig or cultivate anything deeper than 10cm. Tilling in any soil amendments now will have little to no effect for the young vines. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## GreginND

If you are near North Dakota - I'd be interested in your edelweiss!


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## havlikn

The edelweiss would be planted in SE wisconsin.

I took soil samples today. The soil is sandy as expected. Speaking with the ag officer today, he suggested letting the alfalfa grow that is there and spray roundup on the rows for the grapes? I know alfalfa is a legume, is this okay with grape vines?

Thanks


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## grapeman

Doesn't sound like the guy that you spoke with has much vineyard experience. Alfalfa can add a lot of Nitrogen to the soil. Lots of nitrogen + hybrid grapes = excessive vigor. Also you would want to mow it fairly often to keep competition down for the vines and alfalfa would probably die out with frequent mowings. Personnaly I think there would be a better choice for a cover crop.


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## havlikn

Well I got my soil sample data back but I need help reading what the information means. I do know one thing, the PH seems to be significantly higher than recommended levels.

North Sample
PH 7.4
OM 1.9
P 86
K 97
B .6
Mn 7
Z 5.3

South Sample
PH 7.9
OM 1.6
P 78
K 94
B .6
Mn 8
Z 8.7

Any help you could provide on what this all means would be great.
Thanks


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## GreginND

Most of the numbers are in ppm (parts per million). Obviously, pH is pH. The Organic Matter should be percent. 

P - phosphorous
K - potassium
B - boron
Mn - Manganese
Z - probably Zn (zinc)

All the numbers look to me to be in good ranges with high amounts but someone more knowledgeable hopefully will provide better analysis than I can.

Did you get a number for the nitrogen?

The pH's are on the high side but the are almost identical to my two vineyard sites - 7.8 and 7.5. Some grapes can tolerate that high pH without problem, others have more difficulties. I am not sure about edelweiss. The main problem being chlorosis - a problem up taking iron. If you see the leaves yellowing at all (google chlorosis and you will see examples), the pH is likely the cause. You could try to acidify your soil with sulfur amendments but that tends to be only a temporary. I've been told not to worry about the pH. But you want to make sure your varieties are known to be ok in that pH. My grapes (petite pearl, marquette, frontenac blanc and brianna) showed no signs of chlorosis that I could see in their first year and I didn't treat my soil.


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## grapeman

Your soil test results like most other lab results should have the amount (you have given them) along with a normal range which you match up the level you got. That will tell you if you are in a high, normal or low value. If you listed the crop (grapes), many labs will give you a recommendation based on your results and soil type. Your pH is a bit high like Greg said but should not be terrible. If you want to lower it and you need to fertilize, use a chemical fertilizer from a feed store, etc as they tend to lower the pH with their use. Many times a Nitrogen value isn't listed since N is such a soluble nutrient. You could test it at one value, get heavy rain and it could be gone or nearly so. Generally the higher the OM (organic matter) the higher the N potential of the soil. As the OM breaks down it provides N. 
That is a real quick summary for you.


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## havlikn

Thanks guys, you didn't dash my hopes. Grapeman I'm planning on spraying under and tilling under the alfalfa at the end of the month. Do you have a preferred cover crop? I like the idea of companion grass, but also have seen oats and bluegrass as workable as well.


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## grapeman

What you use depends on what grows well in your area. I like a shorter growing fescue as it grows fairly densely without getting excessively tall. Check and see what others use if possible and maybe ask how they like it.


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## havlikn

I talked with a ag extension officer in Vernon county and he agreed the while my soil ph was high, he would still go through with planting. Attached is a picture showing where the intended vineyard will start, 12 rows with 29 vines in each row. I am planning on planting Foch grape vines towards the end of May. Next weekend I plan to spray roundup on the vine rows. The ag officer suggested I don't remove the alfalfa by tilling it under, just mowing it short the first year to kill it off. I know that isn't what others recommended, but that is how we are planning to go forward. 

Now for planting, has anyone use a rotodriller for planting the vines? http://www.amazon.com/Yard-Butler-IRT-1-Driller-9-Inch/dp/B00HD7OHOS

If not, what other suggestions do you have for the planting?


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## grapeman

I would think that is way too small to plant with. What type of vines are you getting? Are they bare root, potted, ? If bare root you need holes at least a foot wide, preferably more. A shovel works well.


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## havlikn

We are going with Foch, bare root grape vines.


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## grapeman

That tool will NOT work adequately with bare root any variety of grapes. It only makes a 2 inch hole.


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## blumentopferde

I use a gasoline powered auger. Was about 200$ and does its job well.


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## dwhill40

I can't imagine planting that many vines and installing that many posts without an auger on a tractor. I managed to disc, set trellis posts, apply minerals, till, and plant 25 vines in one day with a very small john deere with an auger(post hole digger  on a 3-point hitch. The auger is 5 inches in dia. and makes shoveling the planting hole much easier. Compost and humus will naturally lower your ph. and make trace minerals more available to the plants.


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## havlikn

I have secured an auger so it should make life much easier on me!!


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## havlikn

Well the first planting day has come and gone. 348 Marechal Foch planted. I was given the wrong quantity of grow tubes so more are on order. Next steps include pricing out and installing our trellis.

Cheers to 50 years!!


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## havlikn

Vineyard photo


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## GreginND

Looks really good! Congrats on the new vineyard.


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## WeimarWine

*Congrats*



havlikn said:


> Well the first planting day has come and gone. 348 Marechal Foch planted. I was given the wrong quantity of grow tubes so more are on order. Next steps include pricing out and installing our trellis.
> 
> Cheers to 50 years!!



Congrats on your big day. The picture of the vineyard is beautiful. When you get all of the posts and wires for the trellis delivered you'll most likely say to yourself "OMG, what have I done?" At least that's what I remember thinking.

Good luck.

Mike


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## grapeman

WeimarWine said:


> Congrats on your big day. The picture of the vineyard is beautiful. When you get all of the posts and wires for the trellis delivered you'll most likely say to yourself "OMG, what have I done?" At least that's what I remember thinking.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Mike


 
I can relate to that. Today the last of the wire was strung after finally fighting weather to get in 650 posts in the latest vineyard. It is a great feeling, but now the last 1000 vines need training to the trellis. It is a great feeling when they are all on their way growing, but a boatload of work. Good luck!

By the way, it looks great in your young vineyard!


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## CowboyRam

Greg your vineyard looks great. I really like that barn; that is really going to be a wonderful sight once the vines are grown.


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## havlikn

I plan to install more grow tubes this Friday. As for the alfalfa, I feel that I can keep it short and eventually it will die out. Correct grapeman per your earlier suggestion? I also plan to tend to the weeds that try to make it through. Roundup is a great product most definetly! Thanks everyone for the help.


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## GreginND

Be very careful with roundup. If you can get Rely instead, it is a little safer. It kills where it contacts, but it is not translocated throughout the plant like glyphosate is. So, if a vine does get hit it may recover easier.


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## mgmarty

Most impressive!! Looking forward to seeing the trellis.


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## havlikn

Well I hope this is a good sign of things to come, 6 days after planting. The second picture shows the complete tube installation. I also sprayed more roundup around the rows to get rid of alfalfa. 

When should I expect the Foch vines to grow to the top of the tubes? i know weather and location will always affect the vine along with the soil, but just seeing what others have seen. They are 24" tubes.


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## havlikn

Exciting to see the growth on the Foch vines. Many vines are over 2 ft after a month. The leaves look great. Now to controlling the weeds and planning for trellis installation


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## grapeman

Good luck with the vines. They look like they are off and running.


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## havlikn

The Foch vines continue to grow with many about 3 ft tall, I'm a little concerned as I have a few vines at 4 ft tall and have reached the top of the stakes. I am not putting in the trellis this year so I'm wondering what I should do. Should I just snip the tops? Thanks


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## GreginND

No don't cut them. If you can't get longer poles just let them grow even if the bend over. This year is all about root development. If they aren't straight enough for your trunks after the winter you can prune them low and grow good trunks next year.


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## grapeman

What he said.


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## RedWineforGaea

havlikn said:


> Speaking with the ag officer today, he suggested letting the alfalfa grow that is there and spray roundup on the rows for the grapes?



Please, whatever you do, don't put toxin's on your grapes! Please research roundup, as its known to genetically alter the plants its used upon! Its also known to toxify human DNA...

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/research-roundup-diluted-450-fold-still-toxic-dna

my understanding, is that roundup goes into the stomach, changes the DNA's stomach lining to produce toxins for the body.... And now you'll have GMO Grapes....

I myself am planing on growing about 10 to 20 grape vines next year, and I'm trying hard to find a natural alternative to these kinds of poisions....


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## grapeman

We each have to make our own decisionson what we do and don't use or believe. I do not believe the phony science that claims Roundup will create GMO Grapes. This is just one of the latest scare tactics of individuals and groups that despise large companies. 

Red WineforGaea, you posting this as your first post sets off all kinds of red flags and alarms.


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## havlikn

I will continue to spray roundup this year and the next. I am concerned on controlling weeds within the rows as many chemicals can't be sprayed around newer vines. I'm thinking of waiting until next spring to really control weeds. Correct Greg and grape man?


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## GreginND

I have no problem with glyphosate. Just be really careful around your vines with it. Grapes are very sensitive to roundup. Do not spray on a hot day as the vapors can even affect it. Easy does it. I have been mowing my weeds but I just sprayed my vineyard carefully with roundup last week. I will get grass established this year now that my posts are in.


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## sour_grapes

RedWineforGaea said:


> my understanding, is that roundup goes into the stomach, changes the DNA's stomach lining to produce toxins for the body.



Gosh, and I didn't even know that DNA had stomachs, let alone stomach linings!!


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## grapeman

havlikn you are correct about many sprays not being used in the first year or two. They can damage the root hairs. If you have a small vineyard, hand control (pulling or hoeing weeds) is safest.


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## RedWineforGaea

I'm not looking to start a war or anything. I'm just here preparing for my own grape vinyard. I'll be doing it the old fashioned way, without any chemicals made by man. Have you noticed how there is a huge surge these days to find "organic" food? 20 years ago, there was no "need" to focus on "organic" as food was just "natural". But a huge portion of humanity is now concerned about original, organic food. And when you take the time to research the insidious Monsanto corporation, you have to stop and ask yourself if their products are safe or not. Just research what Monsanto has done to the farmers in India.. that doesn't sound "human focused" but a corporation focused on greed. there is a HUGE blacklash against monsanto these days. a LOT of it isn't in the US, but in the rest of the world. BUT it IS coming to the US now, and that's why there is push to put labels on "non organic foods"...

And i'm not just being afraid of "large corporations either". There is enough evidence to show that Monsanto ISN'T researching the long term affects of their productions on humans.. I'm also looking at it in a business context also. There is HIGHER demand for "organic" produce. People are now willing to pay a premium for food.. .like grapes and wine that have NOT be spreyed by pestisides. Notice all the "NON-GMO" lables that are now coming out? well. NON-GMO = "no monsanto", no "roundup". Half the planet is against Monsanto. is half the planet mad and crazy? me thinks not.

As I said, I was just giving some honest suggestions, based on the research I did. I feel bad now that I've stumbled upon people (here on the forum), who have chastized me for giving honest advice. Its a bad way to introduce yourself to a "forum community". Anyways. We all have our own choices. I wish you all the best with your vine growing!

For an example, as a concerned person interested in the viability of selling my own crop:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonenti...ngers-of-monsantos-genetically-modified-corn/

What it boils down to for me is this: is it worth it in the end to save me "time" by spraying the weeds with roundup, knowing there is a HUGE amount of protest out there against what I do? That eventually I will have to LABEL my food crop as having "biotech components"? That there may even be a risk that protesters may go to MY vines and destroy them, as they have to other crops in the past? All of this headache and drama to save me time on my weeds?

At this stage, its irrelivent if roundup is good or bad, right? If I'm selling a product to the people, then I guess I need to know what they want to buy. For me, being a "small guy" I feel its in my best interest to NOT get in bed with companies that offer insectisides. too many people seem to be against it, and well I need all the help i can get. 

that's why i'm spending the time now to look for alternative natural ways to get rid of weeds. hence joining this forum. My humble appologies if I've offended anyone, but I'm just a logical, and natural type of guy. I'm the type of guy willing to spend the time knowing my plants, and knowing what they want, and finding old fashioned ways to produce my lovely vines! (me thinks I may be a bit of a tree hugging, plant loving hippie. LOL) All the best on growing your grapes. namaste!


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## blumentopferde

This Monsato craze is going on for quite a while in Europe. Monsato has become the synonyme for industrial farming which is regarded as bad. Its become quite popular to be against Monsato, mostly because of some NGOs and their biased studies and Green Parties who also campaign against Monsato.

This is a recent advertising of Austrias Green Party:





saying: "Monsato, go home!"

Organic is quite a hype over here and it sure is a good thing to have the choice. But over here in Europe the "green" interest groups fantasize about going 100% organic and forget
that you can't nourish 7 billion people without industrial food production... 

They also forget that farmers use Roundup since decades, absorb hundreds if not thousand times the concentrations of this weedkiller than any consumer would do, and still have a normal life expectancy...

On the other hand there's really no need for a backyard farmer to use Glyphosate. Killing the weed with your hands is not a nice work but definitely feasible when you just have a few vines. 

If you still want to use it, be careful about young plants and about wind drift. Even older, well established plants are sensitive to Glyphosate. I had some wind drift on my plants last year and now they look really horrible, wrinkled and dwarfed. I guess they'll survive and come back next year, but still it's probably not the best thing you can do to your vines...

PS: Not even in organic-crazy Europe there are protesters against "industrial" farms. There are about a million things you should be more concerned about..


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## RedWineforGaea

blumentopferde said:


> This Monsato craze is going on for quite a while in Europe. Monsato has become the synonyme for industrial farming which is regarded as bad. Its become quite popular to be against Monsato, mostly because of some NGOs and their biased studies and Green Parties who also campaign against Monsato.



Not ONLY because of biased? studies, or Green Parties, but also because of Monsantos distruction of local farmers, and whole farming communities in other countries. Clearly not in their own back yard..LOL!
Evidence? Here ya go:

"Every 30 minutes an Indian farmer commits suicide as a result of Monsanto’s GM crops. In the last decade more than 250,000 Indian farmers have killed themselves because of Monsanto’s costly seeds and pesticides."

I'm not even trying very hard to show you the evidence. just google it. So ask yourself, would you support a company and its products who are known to destroy whole farming communities for the sake of profit? I wouldn't. How could I trust a company like that to give me a product that wouldn't harm me? its just being logical.



blumentopferde said:


> forget that you can't nourish 7 billion people without industrial food production...



What makes you think that is true? Please show your facts. you might as well think that we need population control too with that logic! The way our society is now, sucking at the large corporate $$$, then yes I agree with you. But its been proven and shown that if society changes its ways by abolishing the "industrial complex" in favor of more local food pruction it can be done. How? by building small food crops inside cities, having more local farming, etc. We have been brainwashed to believe we NEED the industrial complexes, and well frankly we don't. its just the governments systematically destroying local food markets and local farmers in favor of industrial ones. That is all. Stop the Gov from doing that, and make the Gov focus on local food production and the problem is solved.




blumentopferde said:


> They also forget that farmers use Roundup since decades, absorb hundreds if not thousand times the concentrations of this weedkiller than any consumer would do, and still have a normal life expectancy... On the other hand there's really no need for a backyard farmer to use Glyphosate. Killing the weed with your hands is not a nice work but definitely feasible when you just have a few vines.




"The trouble is, RoundUp is very toxic. It's known to cause cancer, birth defects and infertility. In fact, some scientists are now saying it's more dangerous than DDT."

Not to sure where you get your sources from, but I don't have to search very hard to see how a lot of people are saying otherwise. Again, in the context of a business, does it make sense for you to risk future profits for the sake of a large corporation that explots humans for profit? Can you even trust them to be honest with you? This organic movement is growing BIG, and it WILL overshadow the US Market, and Monsanto WILL go down. So in essence, you're going to have to draw the line to which side you stand on. For me, and small farmers? its a no brainer: stay away from pestisides. there's been no long term studies on humans or animals. now have there?



blumentopferde said:


> If you still want to use it, be careful about young plants and about wind drift. Even older, well established plants are sensitive to Glyphosate. I had some wind drift on my plants last year and now they look really horrible, wrinkled and dwarfed. I guess they'll survive and come back next year, but still it's probably not the best thing you can do to your vines...
> 
> PS: Not even in organic-crazy Europe there are protesters against "industrial" farms. There are about a million things you should be more concerned about..



I agree with you on one thing. the organic-crazy people exist, and ARE coming, and ARE here in US and Cananda, and they aren't going away now are they? For a small business, your livelihood may depend on which side of the fence you're on, right? 

Again, for me, I like to play things safe, and go on the fence of "old fashioned way" of doing things. That's why I came to this forum to find natural ways of removing out the weeds, and other vinyard techniques!


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## havlikn

Can we take the bickering about Monsanto somewhere else. I had asked a simple question.


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## blumentopferde

Really, I don't want to dig into that topic. It's like debating about Israel and Palestine, it's just too hysterical!

In reality there is no side you have to choose and there is no fence. Most of us are hobby winemakers, we're not going to be part of an "industrial complex" by using this or the other industrial product. If it was like that you'd have to throw away your computer immediately, otherwise it would make you a part of a much larger industrial complex.

If you don't like Monsato, don't buy it. There are other companies who offer weedkiller. If you don't like weedkiller, don't buy it either, there are other ways to get rid off weed. But don't tell us that we're criminals because we use this or that product. That's not only irrational and hysterical, it's also not a good way to introduce yourself in a forum...


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## RedWineforGaea

blumentopferde said:


> Really, I don't want to dig into that topic. It's like debating about Israel and Palestine, it's just too hysterical!



I agree with you. I guess here in Canada, with the people I know, people talk about the evils of monsanto all the time. Its well know how evil monsanto is. Sorry if I've offending anyone.



blumentopferde said:


> But don't tell us that we're criminals because we use this or that product. That's not only irrational and hysterical, it's also not a good way to introduce yourself in a forum...



I didn't say anyone was a criminal at all. where did you get that idea? I don't judge you for using roundup at all! its your choice. all I said was a well known truth, and that is roundup has been linked to cancer and other horrible things, and its produced by monsanto. that's all. and the poster did ask... 

I'm as deeply confused as you are, with this conversation. I'm shocked that there's even a debate at all about monsanto. I'm from Canada btw. I mentioned about roundup, because I assumed (wrong for me), that the person didn't know roundup WAS made by monsanto...

Maybe where you are from, you don't know or are aware of the attrocities Monsanto has commited in other countries? I'm deeply sorry you had to know this truth from me..

Yikes! Deeply sorry. Moving forward...
(you won't hear anything else from me about monsanto!)


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## dwhill40

All things can be harmful unless used in moderation be it glyphosphate, alcohol, or rhetoric.


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## havlikn

Can I get away with 3/8" rebar for stakes or do I need 1/2". I plan to buy 20 footers and cut down to 6.5 ft each. Thanks. 

Vines are still progressing quite well.


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## grapeman

It should work alright as long as they are tied to the wires at some point soon after installation.


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## havlikn

Well last week we pulled the grow tubes off the vines to harden for the winter. I was suprised to see a few ripe grape clusters inside the grow tubes. The grape vines are mostly between 4-5 ft. Today I got posts delivered so I have fun ahead of me.

An issue I ran in today was when I got to the vineyard approximately 150 vines were laying on the ground. It appears the wind may have blown over the vines because all vines were laying in a distinct direction. I am shocked at the resilience of the vines as none snapped and I was able to just fold them back up and attach them to the bamboo. 

An issue I am looking into is the pruning for next year. I know many places say to prune back to the ground, but what happens when I have 4-5 ft of growth? Should I go back a certain distance?


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## grapeman

The wind often keeps blowing them over once they are out of the grow tubes. You will need the trellis in place, wires up and the bamboo attached to the wire. Then the vines can be secured to the stakes and they don't blow over any more. Generally the recommendation for pruning is to prune back to about 3 buds in the spring. The vines then grow back nice and strong and will give you a thicker trunk. If you leave the thin trunk there from this years growth, the buds grow from it and the new growth can be two to three times as thick as the trunk. Sometimes folks leave the old growth their for next year and sometimes it works out alright, but not always. It will be your choice.


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## GreginND

I agree with Grapeman. I pruned all my 2nd year vines down to a couple of buds near the ground this year and they came back stronger than ever. But I do have a lot of bull canes that I need to deal with. In some cases I had good trunks grow, in others may have to use a bull cane for a trunk. We'll see.


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## CowboyRam

How do you tell a bull cane from the others?


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## GreginND

They grow very fast, are thicker and the canes may not be round, and the internode distance is large. They tend to be weaker and sometimes don't survive for too many seasons. Thus it's best to choose healthy mid sized canes with shorter internodes for trunks and cordons. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


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## havlikn

Year one under the books, we are actively planning on our addition for year two. The outlook is to add an acre and a half consisting of Frontenac, Frontenac Gris, Marquette, St Pepin, and La Crosse. Frontenac will be the most planted with St Pepin being a close second. The challenge this year is balancing the vineyard with the first kid on the way!!

Looking forward to equipment additions, I am focusing on finding a spray for herbicides. This past year I used a backpack sprayer that worked well, but we purchased an ATV and I want to look at adding a pull behind sprayer for spraying herbicides, still using the backpack for glyphosate. The ones I have looked at from Northern Tool say they spray 14 ft widths (non-adjustable) which is way more than I want. Does anyone have recommendations for a good pull behind atv sprayer or a sprayer too mount on the ATV.

On a side note, for spraying the herbicides, I am looking into Surflan or Prowl. Both appear to be okay for newer vineyards as long as I get it on when the vines are dormant. What are your experiences with either product?

Thank you


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## grapeman

Some herbicides are OK for second year vines or older but there are no choices for first year vines. Most of them will kill the hair roots on the young vines and will kill or stunt them bad.


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## havlikn

The vines appear to have had no issues over the winter. Buds appear to be showing signs of life. It appears the temperatures decided to change from cold to 50's in the forecast. Hopefully the days can continue in the 40's for an extended time period.


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## GreginND

Looks great! I'm a little worried about our early warmup as well. We will have temps in the 50's and even mid 60's over the next week. I know we could easily get a hard freeze still. I don't want my grapes to wake up yet.


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## RedSun

havlikn, where are you located?


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## grapeman

I am not worried about my vines waking up yet. It will hit 45 tomorrow but cooling back down to the 20's and 30's. I have just started pruning and it is tiring slogging around in snow up to my knees if I avoid drifts.


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## RedSun

Why do you prune so early?


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## GreginND

It is best to prune while still dormant. I will prune my vines next week.


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## codeman

Pruned my vines a month ago. The buds are fuzzy with a noticeable green and red color.


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## grapeman

RedSun said:


> Why do you prune so early?


 
If you are asking me, I begin to prune around now so I can finish before budbreak. I am not young anymore and do a lot of it myself. It takes a while to prune 5000 vines alone. Hopefully we are beyond the coldest weather so other than putting up with snow and some cold/cool weather while pruning, there is no reason not to.


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## RedSun

We still have several inches of snow on the ground. So it seems you should have more snow than we do. I think it is going to quite some time before buds break....


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## grapeman

Yes we have snow on the ground also. It is not quite up to my knees right now and it slows me down, but the job needs doing so I have started.


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## RedSun

grapeman said:


> Yes we have snow on the ground also. It is not quite up to my knees right now and it slows me down, but the job needs doing so I have started.



I have some vines I planted last fall. I still do not see them. Have to dig up the snow to get them...


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## ColemanM

Hey grapeman, since you prune all 5000, are there differences in timing for bud break since the first got pruned early, and the last quite a bit later. Or are they all still dormant and you see no difference?


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## grapeman

I don't want to hijack this thread so won't get into it a lot here, but everything is completely dormant and will be for a while. I just need to begin early to get done before budbreak. The different varieties do break bud slightly differently but all are within a week to 10 days of each other.


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## GreginND

I'm very worried about bud break coming too early. Here's what we are looking at. And I know it's going to get back down below freezing before spring comes.


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## havlikn

Greg ours doesn't look that bad down here. Those numbers are scary. We are trending downward from our 55 degree day today towards mid to up 30's as highs in the next couple of weeks.


I don't plan to prune until the first week in April. Given I only have 354 first year plants I should be able to complete in a day.


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## bhoenisch

Scary here in MT too. 60s forecast thought the weekend and there has been very little snow cover since late January.


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## havlikn

Spring pruning has been completed. I was able to get double trunks out of some of the vines, others weren't willing to commit to that this year. I hope to place all vines in double trunk given the recent winters we have had here in Wisconsin.

Next up is laying out the vine rows for the spring.


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## mgmarty

It's a great feeling to have the pruning done!


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## grapeman

Good for you. I bet it feels great to be done pruning and thinking ahead to planting more. 

I am almost done with the second vineyard now and hope to finish today after the latest three inches of snow we got last evening melts. It is stuck to everything right now.


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## havlikn

Well the yearly planting starts this weekend. I hope to get 546 Frontenac and Frontenac Gris vines in leaving 750 for next week/weekend. 

Mother Nature has turned an ugly head with temps tonight forecasted down to 37. We will see how the Foch survive. Unfortunately it's farming. Gotta trust the sight and have faith good things happen. 

If the vines survive the frost, the next challenge will be the deer!! Joys


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## grapeman

You are expecting frost with a low of 37? If it does get colder it should be very light. Keep the faith!


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## havlikn

It's just my trust in the weather forecasters. Sounds like many areas in the state of Wisconsin did receive significant frost.


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## havlikn

Well it was a good day of work in the vineyard. We got about 650 vines in. More next weekend


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## havlikn

. Forgot to attach the photo


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## grapeman

Is that a picture of last year's vines or this year's? If this year's, what did you use to plant them with. I don't see any soil residue from digging and filling holes. Were they plant bands or bareroot vines? So many questions, but it looks so good and must feel rewarding.


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## havlikn

The picture is from this year's planting. The vines were bareroot.

I have received mentoring from the largest vineyard in the state about a planting technique that utilizes a dibble to put the vines in the ground. They have 99% success rate using this technique so I took their recommendation. On our first planting last year, we had a 99% percent success with the same approach. The process is relatively quick and does not require the loosening up a large amount of the natural soil.

While we had our own manufactured by a family friend, attached is concept that we used.


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## grapeman

Do you need to trim the roots a lot using that? I can't imagine using some of the bare root Marquette vines with that. They have a root mass about 2 feet long and a foot wide.


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## havlikn

Yes. I trim so there is about 6 inches or so. I was concerned the first time I saw it but given the respect this winery has, small winery of the year 2015 at international wine competition, I took their advice.


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## RedSun

I have seen device like this on commercial grape growing book(s). This is very fast. But I remember the soil is prep'ed first, loosened, tested and fertilized, before the vines are put in.


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## havlikn

With the help of a crew yesterday we finished the vineyard expansion. 

364 Frontenac
182 Frontenac Gris
246 Marquette
288 st pepin
144 lacrosse

257 line posts

What great excitement and now much needed rest


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## mgmarty

Good lord! I am impressed! The work you have in front of you....I hope you have a big family!!


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## havlikn

Below are some pictures of our 2nd year Foch. This was before trimming to train the two strongest shoots. We have had some really good growth so far this year. I am hoping we can get the trellis finished before my wife and I welcome our newest addition on July 4th


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## grapeman

Those are growing along nicely. Lots of work isn't it?
Good luck with the new baby(I assume). That will really add more chores and work for you. LOL My wife was born on July 4th and mine is the day after Christmas so we can each remember ours birthdays easily.


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## havlikn

A big job out of the way. 96 posts put in and need to finalize a few more. Setting posts is definitely work.


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## havlikn

Got most of the wire strung for the vineyard as you can see in the picture. As for the picture with the Foch vines, these are second year vines that I am attempting to double trunk. Should I let the vine naturally fall to one side? Cut it just above the wire and let a lateral grow out? Something else? Thanks


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## GreginND

I would just bend them over the wire. If you have any bull canes with wide internode spacing I would crop those and let a lateral grow the cordon.


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## havlikn

Busy month it's been. Below you can see pictures of second year Foch. They are really started to fill out well.


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## havlikn

Grow tunes coming off today which was a great finish for the vines. A question I have is anyone's experience with the following caterpillar below. 




We found three of them on the vines. I didn't spray at all this year given they were first year vines. Otherwise I feel the vineyard is coming along nicely.


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## ibglowin

Looks like a long lost tomato worm of sorts.


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## havlikn

The year is finishing off strong. Overall, good growth in all vines. Word to the wise, earth anchors by hand is a chore. I've put 62 in,34 left. What an excitement that will be to have done.


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## grapeman

The augur type anchors are a real chore to put in by hand. I now like to use the Fenox stony point anchors. With teir tool and a good sized hammer they go in relatively easy in a matter of minutes. They are a bit more expensive but go in so much easier it is worth the money. They also hold better than the earth anchors when it gets a bit wet.
http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/Stony-Ground-Anchors-Fenox-11p10.htm


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## havlikn

Do you know how they work in a sandy loam soil. I was considering the grapple style too but was afraid it wouldn't have enough holding power


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## grapeman

Their holding poer in sandy soil is a lot better than the auger type. When Tropical Storm Irene turned my sany soil into quicksand, the stony points held while all the auger type pulled at least partially out.


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## berrycrush

I see you have T-posts along the edge. I use T-post as an anchor. Much easier to jackhammer a Tpost than hand-turn an auger!


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## GreginND

It looks like those T-posts are not for the trellis but holding an electric wire tape to keep the critters out.


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## havlikn

The journey continues. Attached are pictures of the 2nd year foch and 1st year frontenac gris vines. We are committing to the addition of 1400 more vines next year (700 lacrescent and 700 marquette). 

On another note, does any have any experience with contracts for grape growing? If so, I would like to chat and get some pointers if possible.


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## ColemanM

Looking good! Wish I had that much land.


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## havlikn

Overall the vines weathered the winter quiet well. I finished up the one year old pruning a today. Nice sitting in sunny and 45 degree weather but we are expecting 6-10" of snow this week. More joy


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## grapeman

Now that you are warmed up pruning, come on over and you can do some more. Looks great what you have done.


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## havlikn

Thanks. It's definitely a learn as I go and keep learning process. I pruned 10 of the 12 rows of Foch today. Question for anyone out there, what are your recommendations for buds left for third leaf. I know everything is site specific, but in general (if there is such a thing). 

What I tried to do on most vines is go approximately three feet each way in the cordon and leave one or two buds coming of the spurs (sorry if the language is wrong as its my first go around with the third leaf)

Below are a few of the 3rd leaf Foch


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## grapeman

With that vigorous site I think what you did is fine. If you see too many clusters later you can either do shoot thinning or some cluster thinning. By leaving that many buds it will help keep their growth in check some. If you left fewer buds you might get a lot of overgrown shoots. In that case you would get them 15 to 20 feet in length. If the number is good they will be 5 to six feet long maybe a touch more.


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## havlikn

Got to love spring in Wisconsin. Pruned most of the vineyard in 50 degree weather. Finished up in this


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## grapeman

The weather isn't much better over here. The wind blew 40 mph for days with temps in the 20's. This morning was down to 12 and a high around freezing, but at least the wind didn't blow more than 5-10 mph so it seemed warmer. I didn't prune much over the weekend and did some today but not a lot. I'm hoping better weather gets here soon.


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## ibglowin

Was 72 here today, should be headed your way soon!


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## sour_grapes

havlikn said:


> Got to love spring in Wisconsin. Pruned most of the vineyard in 50 degree weather. Finished up in this



I don't know where in WI havlikn is, but we had:
Sat AM: heavy snow.
Sat PM: 40's, with alternating periods of sunny/clear and brief, blinding blizzards
Sun AM: clear but cold
Sun PM: sunny with a high of 69 !!!
Mon: high 20's and flurries.


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## havlikn

The fun is just beginning. I am really happy with my upgraded mower which cut my mow time in half. The buds are starting to swell and I expect bud break within a week or two. We have a cool down planned the next 10 days but fortunately no freezing temps forecasted.


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## mgmarty

That looks real good! Is it just grass your mowing? Or did you plant a cover crop?


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## havlikn

Grass. It was alfalfa but I continually mowed it down.


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## Kraffty

I took these last week before going out to Wisconsin, I've already got bunches on my Chard and Cab. Syrah should be next.


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## havlikn

Season is starting up. 

Foch


Frontenac


Marquette


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## havlikn

We were very fortunate to avoid the statewide frost damage. Stories around the state have it that many vineyards lost quite a bit to the frost. Can't mess with mother nature. Some of our second year vines show a little damage close to the ground but not all that concerning.

Here are Foch from today.


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## havlikn

Another successful year for planting. 700 lacrescent and 700 Marquette


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## TonyR

Wow, sounds like way to much work to me.


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## grapeman

Lots of work there. Soon no more relaxing for you!


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## havlikn

Yeah I'm pretty excited. I'm definitely glad we've done everything in chunks. I have learned a lot on my Foch and was able to apply first spray today. The fun has begun


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## havlikn

Every once in a while you need to step back from the work and enjoy the view


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## sour_grapes

havlikn said:


> Every once in a while you need to step back from the work and enjoy the view



Nice! A full arc, and a double rainbow to boot! 

For those that don't already know this, note that the order of the colors in the second rainbow are reversed from that of the primary rainbow.


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## mgmarty

Very nice!


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## barbiek

havlikn said:


> Every once in a while you need to step back from the work and enjoy the view
> 
> View attachment 29401



And I'm so bad at looking up when working outside!  very nice shot!


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## grapeman

You need to learn to take it all in Barbie. Feel your surroundings as they happen. Don't rush around and never enjoy the little things.


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## havlikn

Things are progressing along. Foch are in bloom and recent rains have the vines growing quickly. 



I was told grapes are ready 90 days after bloom. I know it is site specific and dependent on brix, but I'm just seeing if anyone has input on that statement?


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## ILWIIA

havlikn,

Love the post - very interesting reading and seeing all of your progress and additions. Last May, I planted my first rows of vineyard (Foch and Marquette), and added to that this year and am up to a measly 144 vines on 4 rows. Located in central Wisconsin (near Portage), I went through the wild ride of this spring's temperature fluctuations, but only lost around 10% of first years planting (i.e., around 5 vines). 

Question, from the picture it appears you train to the top wire? I am significantly lacking the full education and knowledge at this point, but am reading quite a bit (books, online, etc.), and am interested in your take (and anyone else's) on training and pruning system for these cold-hardy hybrids. It's all confusing to a newb, because I read differing reports. Cane vs spur/cordon, top-wire cordon vs. mid-wire VSP. How does one decide on which systems to use? What is the best resource, including imagery, on how to actually train and prune properly? For my vines which I planted last year (around 50, 45 of which made it), I want to ensure I properly train them, prune them, and get them ready for fruit set. As of now, I've been letting them grow around a 6' bamboo stake, protected by grow tubes. But, they're really taking off and I'm not sure what I should be focused on in my 2nd year of growth. Any insight would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Zach


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## havlikn

I would grow them all in twc. Fairly minimal handling needed.


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## ILWIIA

Okay - does that mean I should cane or spur prune?

Thank you.


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## havlikn

I will be spur pruning my vines


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## grapeman

Those varieties you mention do well with Top Wire Cordon (spur pruned) but will do well with Top Wire cane pruned also. Marquette has a tendency to die back after a few years on the cordons and you can renew with a new cane laid down. Here is a picture of year 5 on some Marquette in one of my vineyards.


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## Johny99

I don't have your cold problems but I know nice work when I see it. Very nice work to both of you. I'm jealous of your flat ground!


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## ILWIIA

Grapeman,

I understand your points on top-wire spur vs top-wire cane; however, one question - why not mid-wire cane and position them in the vertical shoot positioning upward (VSP)? I read places that Marquette is a semi-upright growing varietal, and thus I'm confused why you would train it to the top-wire and let the shoots drop down, as opposed to train the canes to the mid-wire and train the shoots up.

Any thoughts on this?


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## grapeman

Two things. First it is easier to let them hang down just by combing rather than fighting to keep them within the catch wires. It takes more work for that to maintain proper airspace.
Second. Marquette is very susceptible to late spring frosts (ask GregND). Mid wire freezes harder as the air settles down in many freeze events.

Not to mention Mid wire cordon (VSP) was the lowest yielding, lowest brix and highest acid out of the four training systems I had in my multiple year trials. The High wire cordon is a good compromise between yield and quality with a minimal of maintenance. While your results may vary, it works for me. 

As far as upright growth, yes it does grow upright for a while like most varieties and soon droops so it is very well adapted to Top wire as the Northern Grapes Project has also found.


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## ILWIIA

Thank you, grapeman - much appreciate the quick and supported feedback.


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## havlikn

Did some leaf pulling and tying today. Grapes appear to be moving along

Foch 6-27-16


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## havlikn

It's been a while since updating. Here was a picture from the other day. So far the vineyard is looking good


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## ILWIIA

That looks fantastic!


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## Johny99

Wow! We had an early spring but you look way ahead of mine.


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## havlikn

Three years of work has finally led to this






I can't tell if they are Foch mutations or some other grape as the other grapes haven't turned yet. I four vines like this in the mix of the Foch and all are starting to turn. Regardless I'm sure the other Foch are close to turning.


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## mgmarty

Isn't it wonderful!


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## havlikn

I believe this is the week to get the nets up. Foch from today








I also noticed some Foch leaves that looked like the following. Does anyone notice what type of deficiency this may be?


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## grapeman

Looks more like chemical burns to me such as Captan applied above 90 degrees. The close up pictures of the clusters looks like there may be some powdery mildew, but may just be a spray residue. What have you used lately?


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## havlikn

I have been rotating captan and sovran and captan an rally. 1lb 5 oz of captan on half acre. The leaf damage is sporadic throughout the vineyard. The grapes were just sprayed the day before so it's the spray residue. I wanted to get a final spray in before netting


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## havlikn

Brix 15.6

8-21-16


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## havlikn

Brix 20.8
Ph 3.17

We intend to pick this weekend. Unfortunately we are to get a couple inches of rain the rest of the week. Hoping for the best


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## havlikn

Great start to our first harvest. 400 lbs of Foch harvested this afternoon


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## Johny99

Very pretty, now the fun begins


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## havlikn

The spring season of 2017 is once again upon us. I have been going through and long pruning the vines to help elevate work later this spring. Below are two pictures of TWC trellised 4th leaf Foch. I am not finished pruning these, but I am wondering about the spur growth. Is it okay for the spurs to grow downwards? Should I try getting them to go side to side, and if so how as they appear to want to grow the direction they go. Also, does anyone have recommendations about wrapping the cordon around the wire? 

I know there are too many buds currently, which I will be cleaning up at a later time.

Thanks


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## grapeman

Yes you may wrap the cordon around the wire. First trim the canes back to spurs and you can use the spurs to help hold the cordon in place. If it doesn't want to stay, tie it with an expandable material. Since Foch is fairly hardy you can prune the spurs back to just a couple nodes. When you shorten them up you will notice that they mostly go off to the side a bit. See the picture for an example.


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## fathertom

Marquette grapes are finicky. I had them in Wyoming. The late frosts kill them a lot of years, and they are not big producers. There are other cold climate grapes that produce more. New ones that are awesome are Crimson Perl and Verona. For reds, I would plant them over Marquette. Edelweiss makes a great wine. There is a commercial winery in Nebraska that produces great Edelweiss, Macs Creek in Lexington.

Good luck with your new grapes.
Tom


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## grapeman

Marquette grapes are not really finicky. They do break bud early and can be susceptible to late spring freezes, but they can produce very heavy if done correctly. Twenty to thirty pounds per vine is attainable. Here are some pictures mainly of Marquette that the leaves dropped off. We had so many of them we didn't have room for them. I have been growing Marquette for over 10 years now and it has become the best selling cold climate red wine.


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## ibglowin

You sure know how to make a grown winemaker cry Rich! Can't believe those went to waste.........


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## havlikn

It has been a good spring around the vineyard. The temps keep fluctuating and hopefully we will be able to keep some cool temps in the forecast to delay bud break. This pictures were taken a couple days ago on Marquette. It should be a little while longer as the weather looks to be in the mid 50's for the next 10 days. Here's to another season. 

.


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## GreginND

Looks great. I think I will prune mine this weekend.


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## mgmarty

Looks great. Hope your past any frost danger.


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## bumblebeetuna

Marquette in northern Indiana...nervous about still having a few weeks left in frost danger


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## Johny99

Wow! My buds are just starting to swell. I hope you don't get a hard freeze!


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## GreginND

After temps in the 70s last week we woke up to wind and snow this morning. Looks like it will be freezing every day this week. So far my buds have not swelled. So I think I'm safe.


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## bumblebeetuna

I had a light frost last night...we shall see the damage in a few days I'm sure


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## havlikn

We had frost Saturday morning and looks like the temps will remain in mid 50's for the next 10 days. Here was a shot from Saturday morning. Need to get my herbicide sprayed soon





Foch


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## Johny99

Good looking rows. Buds look about like mine. I think we are safe from a hard freeze, but it is snowing up at The Ridge. That is ~6,000 ft while my vineyard is at 1,400. Hopefully the cold will stay up there.


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## mgmarty

So are buds that have swelled like that still protected from a light frost?


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## Johny99

In my experience a light frost is usually ok, particularly if it is late Near sunrise and not too long. Once the leaf starts to unferle it is susceptible. Sprinklers can help at that point.


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## havlikn

Been a cold month with temps well below average. Had first season with grape flea beetle. Did not spray but will monitor for damage and learning experience. The picture is of a 4 year old Foch. Very sporadic bud break throughout the vineyard.


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## havlikn

It has been a busy past month. The vines have really taken off with the inches of rain and heat that we have had over the past couple weeks. The first picture is a Marquette cluster in bloom and the second picture is a few rows of Foch. All of this rain is really making the fungicide protection difficult.


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## havlikn

It’s been a while since posting so I figured I’d show some recent pictures. We are in the midst of pruning our vines. Cold Wisconsin winters are a challenge. It was 50 degrees five days in January. Now we keep getting snow and below average temps. Go figure

Spring will be here shortly


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## shrewsbury

Same here in Ohio. I was averaging 19 degrees on my pruning days. today it was 27, started pruning and it started raining, yes rain. Turned to ice once it touched anything, but fell as rain. I was sopping wet in about 10 minutes. Needless to say, I did not last long.
Your vineyard looks nice!


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## havlikn

Even with a cool spring, the buds appear ahead of last year. Below are pictures of Frontenac and Marquette. With all the rain lately, a little heat everything is going to take off. 

Marquette



Frontenac


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## havlikn

Another planting completed. We added another 900 vines, 200 Frontenac and 700 Frontenac Blanc. 


As luck would have it, we got a couple brief downpours today to help them out. With temps in 90’s they may open up this week


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## havlikn

Vines are growing like crazy with latest rain and heat. We are mostly through bloom and starting to leaf pull. Pics are Foch and Frontenac.


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## havlikn

It’s been a warm month with adequate rain. We are seeing good foliage. Verasion shouldn’t be too far in the future



Foch


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