# First All Grape Attempt!



## jsbeckton (Mar 6, 2019)

Well after 3 years and about 15 premium kits I am going to give all grape a try this spring. Just ordered about 90# of Chilean Merlot and am trying to figure out what I need for fermentation. Plan to get a food grade Brut for the fermentation but am more concerned with what to add (besides the grapes!)

Right now I was thinking the following:

K-meta
Bentonite
Lallzyme EX
Opti-Red
Fermentation tannins
Yeast nutrient

Anything above not recommended or anything else I should add? Oak chips?

Any particular yeast recommendations? 

Thanks!


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## CDrew (Mar 6, 2019)

Do you have capacity for more grapes? THat's a small ferment, and if you are going to that much trouble, I'd recommend you do about 200 pounds. The reason is, it's the same amount of work, you may as well end up with more wine. That will net you 12-14 gallons(5+ cases) in the end. You can do 200 pounds in one 32 gallon Brute from Home Depot.

You didn't mention yeast-that's usually helpful, though not 100% required! I'd like to know what you use. We all have a favorite or two. Since you asked for a recommendation: Avante from Renaissance.

I don't think you need Bentonite. You're going to age it awhile and it will clear on it's own.

100% agree with the Lallzyme. It makes a huge difference, both the EX and EX-V.

For yeast nutrients I like Go Ferm followed by Fermaid O or Fermaid K at intervals.

I did use both OptiRed and Fermentation tannins this year and thought they worked well.

You'll need to consider MLB as well, and the timing of when you want to start MLF. I co-innoculated this year with very fast completion of MLF. Plan to do that everytime going forward.

You can do your oak via cubes, spheres, staves, or spirals, later.

I assume you've read and re-read the MoreWine manual. I can't recommend that enough.
https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wredw.pdf

Good luck!


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## NorCal (Mar 6, 2019)

I will give the crushed must 50ppm SO2 at crush and pitch yeast/nutrient 24 hrs later. Unless there is a problem or style I’m trying to achieve I don’t add anything else. Sometime less is more.


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## cmason1957 (Mar 6, 2019)

And I don't add any SO2 at crush, particularly for Chilean Grapes and Merlot. Almost every year someone has issues with Chilean Grapes and Mlf. Many of those seem to be SO2 level related. Merlot sometimes just doesn't want to do Mlf so any help I can give it.


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## jsbeckton (Mar 7, 2019)

Thanks for the replies so far. I will skip the Bentonite but was a bit worried about skipping the SO2 but maybe for these grapes it’s necessary.

The reason that I am only doing 90# is I don’t yet have a crusher/destemmer so it will be done manually. The grape distributer said 4-5 18# crates would yield 6g so I ordered 5. I know that it varies but do you guys agree with that?


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## Johnd (Mar 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Thanks for the replies so far. I will skip the Bentonite but was a bit worried about skipping the SO2 but maybe for these grapes it’s necessary.
> 
> The reason that I am only doing 90# is I don’t yet have a crusher/destemmer so it will be done manually. The grape distributer said 4-5 18# crates would yield 6g so I ordered 5. I know that it varies but do you guys agree with that?



It’s pretty close to the right quantity, though much depends upon the grapes themselves. We’re it me, 6 half lugs would be my choice, and have a few small vessels on hand for the potential excess, one gal, half gal, bottles. Much of any excess will be used up during racking and you shouldn’t have to use any different wine. 

Decide early whether you will inoculate mlb during AF or post AF. 
I also do not add SO2 to good looking fruit before AF, though it would be considered for poor fruit. 
Do you have a press or an alternate pressing plan, like the bucket press?
Punch down tools and gajillion hole tubes are handy and can be made very inexpensively with little effort.


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## jsbeckton (Mar 7, 2019)

Johnd said:


> Decide early whether you will inoculate mlb during AF or post AF.
> I also do not add SO2 to good looking fruit before AF, though it would be considered for poor fruit.
> Do you have a press or an alternate pressing plan, like the bucket press?
> Punch down tools and gajillion hole tubes are handy and can be made very inexpensively with little effort.



Any general consensus about when to inoculate mlb? Preference would be to do during AF if possible.

I have a ratchet press that I found on CL but so far no luck finding a crusher/destemmer.


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## CDrew (Mar 7, 2019)

I don't think there's a general consensus about anything in winemaking! But there are many right ways to get to the same place. MLF is like that. But adding during alcoholic fermentation is the easiest, the temps will be warmer which is a benefit, and overall, seems to complete more quickly. I've done it both ways, and find the co-inoculation to be more convenient and 100% satisfactory.

Regarding the crusher/destemmer there has to be a way around that problem. Local home brew shop rent gear? Other winemakers in the area? Do it by hand with a milk crate the first time?


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## Ajmassa (Mar 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Any general consensus about when to inoculate mlb? Preference would be to do during AF if possible.
> 
> I have a ratchet press that I found on CL but so far no luck finding a crusher/destemmer.



The 1st time I did mlf I took a suggestion from WMT to innocculate right after the yeasts lag phase. Basically when the cap is formed about 24 hours after pitching yeast. 
At that point did my 1st nutrient addition, hydrated the MLB and pitched, and then added a dose of the ML nutrient. Haven’t done it any other way since then. So far 100% success rate. 
I did a lot of reading on the topic. The perceived risks from Co-innoc have been proven to not be true and is becoming more and more accepted. On average the mlf finishes quicker. And the low abv Enviroment is the biggest benefit. Traditionalist tho still prefer a nice old school lengthy mlf with the mindset that the wine loses some complexity from the shorter mlf. Nothings been proven tho


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## mainshipfred (Mar 7, 2019)

I agree with the 6 half lugs and I don't ferment a large batch but rather 3 smaller ones with 3 different yeasts. Come press time I just stir and pour the wine into the press since the buckets are light enough, let the free run do it's thing then press. Although if would be nice to age the individual yeasts separately to see what they have to offer I haven't done that but once with a white and the profiles were different. I'm still old school for no particular reason and MLF after AF. I also don't sulfite at crush and use Lallzyme, Opti Red, FT Rouge and rehydrate with Go-ferm. You're probably sorry you asked the question with everyones differring opinions so my biggest recommendation is to use more than one yeast. Have fun with it!


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## jsbeckton (Mar 7, 2019)

Great stuff, please keep it coming!
Unfortunately neither my local Homebrew shop nor my grape distributer offer crushing services or rentals. My plan is to involve the wife in the destemming and crushing process and hope she asks if there is a better way to do this [emoji3].
Would you guys also recommend that I get the pH in a specific range prior to pitching?
I have used the go-Ferm before with kits but stopped because I have been able to ferment dry without it. Is it more important for an all grape batch?
I have read the morewine reds manual once and will read it again before it’s go time.


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## CDrew (Mar 7, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> I have used the go-Ferm before with kits but stopped because I have been able to ferment dry without it. Is it more important for an all grape batch?



That is a fair question. And I don't know. Obviously, for 10,000 years people made wine without go-ferm and fermaid. I look at them as insurance policies to get the ferment to dry with minimal hassle.

I've never made a kit and so don't know how much the must is "juiced" before fermentation. But I suspect they add nutrients to make it fool proof.

It's all about your level of comfort. Additives make a good outcome more likely, have no downsides, and so I'd recommend based on that alone.


Edit-ANd by the way, I like the way you want to involve your wife. Good plan to get her on your side. Once you go to grapes, it's nice to have help, so get her on board right away, so that when your operations expand, which they will. she'll be OK with it. If she's invested with your first grape ferment, she'll care about the outcome, which is cool.


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## Johnd (Mar 8, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Would you guys also recommend that I get the pH in a specific range prior to pitching?
> I have used the go-Ferm before with kits but stopped because I have been able to ferment dry without it. Is it more important for an all grape batch?
> I have read the morewine reds manual once and will read it again before it’s go time.



Yes!!! Making your adjustments for BRIX and then acid is very important if they’re not where you need them to be. Sugar will be all you need to adjust BRIX upward, acidulated water (water + tartaric) to bring BRIX down. 
Tartaric to lower pH / raise TA, potassium bicarbonate to lower pH / raise TA. 
Have the supplies on hand, and jump on here if you need someone to check your numbers / calcs. 

I’ve never used goferm or rehydrated, ever, and have never had a stalled or incomplete fermentation. 

Kudos on the MoreWine Manual reading, they are very well done.


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## jgmann67 (Mar 25, 2019)

I may have missed it. How are you going to crush and destem? Milk crates?


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## jsbeckton (Mar 25, 2019)

jgmann67 said:


> I may have missed it. How are you going to crush and destem? Milk crates?



Yes, that’s the plan for this first batch. Thinking that is should be manageable with just 108lb but will see how painful it is.


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## jgmann67 (Mar 25, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> Yes, that’s the plan for this first batch. Thinking that is should be manageable with just 108lb but will see how painful it is.



Two people, two crates, 200 lbs. [emoji1303]


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## jsbeckton (Mar 25, 2019)

I have been doing about a 6-8 week EM on my kits. Should I attempt to do EM on my first all grape wine or should I keep it simple. I noted that the More Wine manual seems to discourage it.


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## jgmann67 (Mar 25, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> I have been doing about a 6-8 week EM on my kits. Should I attempt to do EM on my first all grape wine or should I keep it simple. I noted that the More Wine manual seems to discourage it.



I’m going to say no, unless you’re doing an old style Nebbiolo. Try to get two weeks on the skins. But, ymmv.


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## Boatboy24 (Mar 26, 2019)

Agree with @jgmann67 . Get a 'regular' fermentation or two under your belt first.


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## CDrew (Mar 26, 2019)

jsbeckton said:


> I have been doing about a 6-8 week EM on my kits. Should I attempt to do EM on my first all grape wine or should I keep it simple. I noted that the More Wine manual seems to discourage it.



I think you'll be pleased enough with an all grape must, that you won't find EM to be necessary. Use enzymes prior to pitching, and the wine will have plenty of extraction. EM is an advanced technique with lots that can go wrong. Wineries that do it have proper equipment to prevent air exposure and control temperature, that home winemakers rarely have. Longer term, you should of course try it as an experiment. But only after you have a cellar (closet!) full of wine that you like.

Good job though jumping into wine making from grapes! From now on, no safety net.


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## mainshipfred (Mar 26, 2019)

CDrew said:


> I think you'll be pleased enough with an all grape must, that you won't find EM to be necessary. Use enzymes prior to pitching, and the wine will have plenty of extraction. EM is an advanced technique with lots that can go wrong. Wineries that do it have proper equipment to prevent air exposure and control temperature, that home winemakers rarely have. Longer term, you should of course try it as an experiment. But only after you have a cellar (closet!) full of wine that you like.
> 
> Good job though jumping into wine making from grapes! From now on, no safety net.



I like the no safety net comment.


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## jsbeckton (Mar 26, 2019)

CDrew said:


> I think you'll be pleased enough with an all grape must, that you won't find EM to be necessary. Use enzymes prior to pitching, and the wine will have plenty of extraction. EM is an advanced technique with lots that can go wrong. Wineries that do it have proper equipment to prevent air exposure and control temperature, that home winemakers rarely have. Longer term, you should of course try it as an experiment. But only after you have a cellar (closet!) full of wine that you like.
> 
> Good job though jumping into wine making from grapes! From now on, no safety net.



I actually have a fermentation chamber so I can control temp and O2 pretty well but if enzymes will do a good enough job I am all for keeping it simple. I’ve been brewing beer for about 10 years and went through a spectrum of my process over that time: simple->complicated->back to simple again. Ive learned that sometimes less is more. Therefore trying to only do what’s having a fairly big impact here.

I’ve got about 300 bottles of premium kit wine in a temp controlled cellar so should be ready to gamble with EM on an all grape batch some day.


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