# Petit Sirah from Lanza Thread



## jgmann67

I know there are a few of us making A PS wine this season. As is my usual, I'm going to start a stream of consciousness from beginning to end. 

We (ceeaton and I) brought three lugs home, freshly crushed and destemmed from Harford Vinyards. The grapes were fresh, bright and sweet. 

Dosed with Lallzyme when we got situated in the basement. About 12 hours later, I kicked off fermentation using D254 and Fermaid to rehydrate. Shortly after, I dropped some Tannin and called it a night. Then this morning, I added some nutrient and gave it a good mashing. This is about to start active fermentation. 

The temp of the wine is about 70*. And the pH/TA are within tolerances. We start with an SG of 1.106 +\- which is a little over 25 Brix. It's a pleasant 72* in the basement this morning. 

So, follow along. Add your thoughts and enjoy the ride.


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## stickman

Did you make any adjustment to the acid/PH? At 3.81 the ML will move quickly once the sugar fermentation finishes.


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## Boatboy24

Just did my second round of measurements. Brix at 25.2 (1.106SG) and pH at 3.82. Added a touch of tartaric (targeting 3.7). Added Opti-Red and got the starter going. I'll give it about 20 minutes, then pitch.


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## Steve_M

We had a 70% PS/ 30% OVZ, that we crushed last Saturday. PH was tad high 3.89-3.92 added a wee bit of tartaric acid to bring down some did not want to overshoot so kept it to minimum application. We pressed Thursday night and am very pleased with the color and flavor one week in. Racking here shortly and introducing ML.


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## jgmann67

Can I adjust my pH later if I want? I didn't last night. Not sure if I want to. 

I pitched yeast before bed last night when the must temp was in the mid 60's. Temps are at 71* and rising. I wonder how quick this will start to actively ferment. I'm guessing it's just starting up, and will be hissing away when I wake up tomorrow. Well, I'm hoping anyway.


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## Boatboy24

It should be bubbling by morning. Did you do a starter, or just toss the yeast in? I got a starter going and after about 20 minutes, it was bubbling pretty well and sounding like a bowl of Rice Crispies. Just went down and checked on it (about two hours after pitching) and while there is no cap, there is visible bubbling.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> It should be bubbling by morning. Did you do a starter, or just toss the yeast in? I got a starter going and after about 20 minutes, it was bubbling pretty well and sounding like a bowl of Rice Crispies. Just went down and checked on it (about two hours after pitching) and while there is no cap, there is visible bubbling.




There are bubbles, just no bubbling. I did a starter, then dropped the temp to within 10* of the must. I'll look forward to something more active tomorrow.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> There are bubbles, just no bubbling. I did a starter, then dropped the temp to within 10* of the must. I'll look forward to something more active tomorrow.



If you go use your punch down tool and press down through the grapes, you will notice purple foam coming up. That is CO2 just starting to be produced, the Cap will show up after that.

Don't fret, if it smells wonderful, you are fine. Go drink some of those gazillion bottles you have in your wine room and "Frageta about it".


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## jgmann67

A nice cap this morning on the PS grapes. Temp is about 72* in the wine. Punched down and away we go.


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## jgmann67

Temps are up. 76* and a cap forms pretty quickly. I've punched the wine down three times tonight. Smells awesome.


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## JohnT

Pics or it did not happen....


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## Johnd

@jgmann67 @boatboy24
Keep those Brix, TA, and pH numbers and adjustments coming!! My frozen Lanza PS must will get to me after you are both in MLF. Assuming my stuff will be quite similar to yours, it's a heck of a fresh road map.


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## Boatboy24

JohnT said:


> Pics or it did not happen....



http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54452&page=7


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## jgmann67

And here's one from last night:




This morning, the cap was about 4-5" high off the wine.


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## jgmann67

On a whim tonight, I tested my SG and was surprised to find myself halfway home at 1.050. So, I dosed with a bit o' nutrient and gave it a great punch and stir. Good foam. No overflow (the same can't be said for my chard, which was down to 1.030... Volcano!!!').

Am I doing this right? If I start at 1.106 and finish at 0.990, I've got a 15% ABV wine.


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## Boatboy24

I didn't measure, but dosed as well. Cap on both wines is reforming in less than 5 minutes. 

Depending on which formula you use for ABV, you're right. I get a little higher than 15% and use (SG-FG)*133.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> ...
> Depending on which formula you use for ABV, ...



I've always wanted to ask this question ever since I downloaded FermCalc. Which ABV method do people depend on? There is:

Berry Method
Duncan & Acton Method
Balling Method
Cutaia, Reid & Speers Method

I take an average.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> I didn't measure, but dosed as well. Cap on both wines is reforming in less than 5 minutes.
> 
> Depending on which formula you use for ABV, you're right. I get a little higher than 15% and use (SG-FG)*133.




Same here. Checked temps, too. We're at 82* in the big brute container.


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## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> I've always wanted to ask this question ever since I downloaded FermCalc. Which ABV method do people depend on? There is:
> 
> Berry Method
> Duncan & Acton Method
> Balling Method
> Cutaia, Reid & Speers Method
> 
> I take an average.



I do the same, run it on fermcalc and average the resulting ABV's.


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## jgmann67

I may be pressing the wine this weekend (would like as much time as I can muster on the skins, so I might hold off until Monday or Tuesday of next week). If I punch the grapes one last time on Sunday, wait for it to form a good, solid cap and poke my racking cane through the cap, I can pretty much vacuum out most of the juice, yes? Once the juice is out, I can more easily haul the brute out to the garage to press the grape skins to get the remaining juice.


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## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> I may be pressing the wine this weekend (would like as much time as I can muster on the skins, so I might hold off until Monday or Tuesday of next week). If I punch the grapes one last time on Sunday, wait for it to form a good, solid cap and poke my racking cane through the cap, I can pretty much vacuum out most of the juice, yes? Once the juice is out, I can more easily haul the brute out to the garage to press the grape skins to get the remaining juice.



Theoretically, yes, but mine still has a tendency to clog, making for a slow racking. I use, as others, a tube with holes in it that gets pushed into the must and siphon out of that, it helps.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I may be pressing the wine this weekend (would like as much time as I can muster on the skins, so I might hold off until Monday or Tuesday of next week). If I punch the grapes one last time on Sunday, wait for it to form a good, solid cap and poke my racking cane through the cap, I can pretty much vacuum out most of the juice, yes? Once the juice is out, I can more easily haul the brute out to the garage to press the grape skins to get the remaining juice.


 Like @Johnd said, use something to separate the wine from the skins. What I did in a pinch, was use the part of the bucket press (which is a bucket) with the holes drilled into it, used my brew bag inside out and covered the bucket on the outside, then plunged it into the brute with the wine and skins. It was tough to do, but it worked. If I'm there when you press, one of us can press the bucket down (me) the other can operate the AIO (you).

It did make the brute lite enough for me to carry to my garage alone and all by myself.


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## Boatboy24

Get a section of 4 inch PVC and cap one end. Drill a 'gajillion' holes in it. Place it into a mesh paint strainer bag and place it into the fermenter (open end up). Then just stick your racking cane into that and rack away.

EDIT: Here's a pic from @vacuumpumpman :

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15976&page=94


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## Johnd

Boatboy24 said:


> Get a section of 4 inch PVC and cap one end. Drill a 'gajillion' holes in it. Place it into a mesh paint strainer bag and place it into the fermenter (open end up). Then just stick your racking cane into that and rack away.
> 
> EDIT: Here's a pic from @vacuumpumpman :
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15976&page=94



And if you start with a piece of perforated pvc (French drain piping), you'll start with a good many of your gajillion holes already drilled. 

I use a piece of perforated vinyl soffit, rolled into a tube, and snap the seams together, with a little cap on the bottom.


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## Steve_M

I tried this last year using the AIO, but my flow rate was very slow to non existent. Maybe did not have the gajillion holes or may be my drilled holes were too small? Should have addressed this before last Thursday oh well next year.


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## ceeaton

Steve_M said:


> I tried this last year using the AIO, but my flow rate was very slow to non existent. Maybe did not have the gajillion holes or may be my drilled holes were too small? Should have addressed this before last Thursday oh well next year.



When I did it on Sunday afternoon, I found that I had to move the bucket around a little, those skins don't want to let that juice get by. They must form a nice layer against the strainer bag on the outside of the tube. I had to stop the AIO several times to let the flow catch up and give enough for the AIO to pump w/o getting any air.


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## jgmann67

Looks like a trip to home depot is order this week sometime.


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## Johnd

The skins will cover the holes, all I do is slowly spin the tube to keep the holes clear and the flow continuing.


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## vacuumpumpman

yes the skins will cover up the holes at times - best is to shimmy the pipe or use a utensil to scrape off the skins. Yes turning off the pump - so the liquid can fill up the void is always good practice. 

@Johnd - I like your idea - I made mine along time ago and was all concerned at that time for it to be made for potable water.


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## Johnd

vacuumpumpman said:


> yes the skins will cover up the holes at times - best is to shimmy the pipe or use a utensil to scrape off the skins. Yes turning off the pump - so the liquid can fill up the void is always good practice.
> 
> @Johnd - I like your idea - I made mine along time ago and was all concerned at that time for it to be made for potable water.



Had the same concern Steve, best I could determine through the product literature, the pvc in the siding was the same as the pipe. I've used it a bunch with no problems. I am on a mission to find a better solution though, and have a quote for a stainless steel mesh tube, a little pricey. There's a pvc plastic filtration mesh pipe, inexpensive, but only available in minimum orders 1500 feet from the factory, no resellers. I'll find something.


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## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Had the same concern Steve, best I could determine through the product literature, the pvc in the siding was the same as the pipe. I've used it a bunch with no problems. I am on a mission to find a better solution though, and have a quote for a stainless steel mesh tube, a little pricey. There's a pvc plastic filtration mesh pipe, inexpensive, but only available in minimum orders 1500 feet from the factory, no resellers. I'll find something.



Just take that 1500 feet, make it into a gazillion tubes and sell them to Steve as an added option to the AIO!?!


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## jgmann67

Traveled to Bucks County and back last night. Got home around 11:30. So, I recruited my wife to punch the wine at 7:00 and then I punched it down again before shutting down for the night. 

This morning, my wine temp dropped to 78*. So, I'm guessing that fermentation is slowing and this weekend will be good for pressing. I'll do a gravity test tonight when I get home to be sure. But I'm hoping for something around 1.010. 

It smells great. I'm surprised at how well this is going (I realize I shouldn't have said that).


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## jgmann67

Got home and punched the wine down. Then did a gravity. The wine SG is 1.004 right now. Moving day may just be tomorrow (if the schedule allows). How long is too long to wait before transferring to a secondary. If this were a kit, I wouldn't worry about it till Saturday or Sunday. 

I'm amazed it's gone this far this fast. Got a little taste, too. Oooh boy, that's potent.


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## ibglowin

If the cap starts to sink you need to press!


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## jgmann67

ibglowin said:


> If the cap starts to sink you need to press!




We're not there quite yet. But, I'm thinking it's getting close.


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## ceeaton

Let's see about after work tomorrow. I just PM'ed you, will be back in a few, have to pick the daughter up at the school right now, if I'm late she'll turn me into a pumpkin.


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## Boatboy24

Did not check SG today, but cap is still reforming in just a few minutes. Must temp at 76. Hoping to hold out until Sunday. My Saturday is full.


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## jgmann67

Been jumping since 6:00 this morning and am finally getting to sit down. 

The PS was at 0.992-ish this morning and we prepped to press. pH is 3.73 and TA is somewhere between 6.5 and 7.1. 

I made a syphon filter out of sewer pipe and a cap. Made one for Craig while I was at it. 




When he got here, we got about 3 gal of juice out of the bucket and brought the brute w/skins upstairs to the garage for pressing. 

Bucket press worked exceptionally. I know we didn't get all that we could out of the skins. But that's okay. The PS juice we got is plenty tannic and not terribly acidic. 

We got around 7.1 gallons out of three lugs of grapes. The juice will settle tonight and I'll start MLF in the morning after racking the wine off whatever fluffy stuff is there. 

The skins are tucked away in my freezer, separated into 4-1 gallon bags. 

And most of the cleanup is done. Finally got a sandwich. Need to run over to the LHBS to get some MLB for the chard and a 1 gallon jug for the PS. Then, I might take a nap. 

Now for some pics (for you doubters out there):


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## Boatboy24

Dad's coming over in about 30 minutes. We'll press the petite sirrah (maybe the Cab - its sitting at 1.018). Will also do final measurements/adjustments on the Syrah and Viognier and pitch yeast on those. If we press the Cab today, I'll also take those skins and use them to start my LR 3 Country Cabernet kit.


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## jgmann67

Update on #'s. 

Craig's meter needed new batteries. Actual = pH 3.73, TA 6.7g/L. 

At this point, I don't see the need to adjust anything.


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## Boatboy24

Pressed the PS today as well and am letting the Cab go another day. Didn't take any readings, but the ounce or two that we both sampled shows great promise.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> Pressed the PS today as well and am letting the Cab go another day. Didn't take any readings, but the ounce or two that we both sampled shows great promise.



We took a free run sample and a mid-press sample. The PS will age really well, there are definitely some tight tannins to it. I wanted Jim to taste the second pressing juice to make sure it was in bounds with what he was expecting, if it wasn't we'd stop the second pressing and move on to what was left in the fermenter. Though it was a bit more tannic, it wasn't too out of line, very enjoyable as an after breakfast warmer (man, that wine has some kick and the aroma was delectable).


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## jgmann67

So, I didn't do any bentonite and I don't plan to do any chitosan. How long will the wine take to clear doing this all sans clarifiers?


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## Boatboy24

You'll be surprised how fast. Much quicker than kits. But it doesn't matter - you're not bottling for at least a year.


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## ceeaton

Boatboy24 said:


> You'll be surprised how fast. Much quicker than kits. But it doesn't matter - you're not bottling for at least a year.



And then he's storing half of it at my house for save keeping!


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## jgmann67

Got another taste of PS before adding MLB. Just wow... it's tasty now. It should be something after a couple years. 

Dropped MLB and gave it a good stir. Then came back and dropped 60 grams of a mix of Hungarian and French medium oak cubes. 

My only issue is that I have 6.6 gallons of wine. I pushed the rest into two bottles - a 1.5 and the better part of a 750. I'm up for suggestions.


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## Boatboy24

Why is that an issue?


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Why is that an issue?




I'm worried about oxidizing the wine in the 750, since it isn't all the way full. And, I'm not oaking the 1.5. Will they MLF properly?


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## Boatboy24

Oak is not a requirement for MLF. And what I tend to do is on racking, put the bottles into the carboy first. They'll mix in w/ the rest and will likely see the remaining MA metabolized. 

If you're worried about oxidation, just make sure you taste it before you mix it in w/ the rest. And steal a couple 375's from Craig.


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## jgmann67

I have 375's. I'll probably move it to one. The wine is at about 575ml.


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Oak is not a requirement for MLF. And what I tend to do is on racking, put the bottles in first.




Yeah, sorry - expressing two thoughts at once. A) concerned they won't MLF well in the bottle; and B) there's no oak in the bottles. 

Good idea, pouring the bottles first when racking. Going to do that. 

How long should I wait between racking?


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## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Oak is not a requirement for MLF. And what I tend to do is on racking, put the bottles in first.




Yeah, sorry - expressing two thoughts at once. A) concerned they won't MLF well in the bottle; and B) there's no oak in the bottles. 

Good idea, pouring the bottles first when racking. Going to do that. 

The guide says to stir the wine a couple times a week...How long should I wait between racking?


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## ceeaton

Scanned image of the Chromography I did over the weekend for a baseline of our Harford batches. Chard = Chardonnay juice bucket, PS = Petit Sirah, Zin = Zinfandel. Not a whole lot of malic acid in the Chardonnay, for sure.


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## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Scanned image of the Chromography I did over the weekend for a baseline of our Harford batches. Chard = Chardonnay juice bucket, PS = Petit Sirah, Zin = Zinfandel. Not a whole lot of malic acid in the Chardonnay, for sure.




So, when it's done, there should be little or no malic dot? How long might that take?


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So, when it's done, there should be little or no malic dot? How long might that take?




Maybe two weeks. Maybe two months.


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## jgmann67

Guess we wait a month and retest.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Guess we wait a month and retest.



That was my plan. Just stir lightly (introduce as little O2 as possible) every few days with a sanitized stick or racking cane. Idea is to keep that bacteria in suspension and not let it get overwhelmed (covered) by the lees that are constantly forming at this point as the yeast and solids settle out.

About the time I pitch the CH16 I bought for my Cab Franc batch (I get grapes tomorrow, yea) we can take another sample since I'll need a starting point for the Cab Franc MLF.


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## jgmann67

The PS is doing well on the Hungarian/French oak and, I imagine, MLF is moving right along. The sample I pulled before the last stirring was extraordinarily clear. Pitch dark, but clear. I need to keep my paws off of it except to stir 2x/week. 

I dropped 30 gr of French oak chips in the Chard bucket, too, last week.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> The PS is doing well on the Hungarian/French oak and, I imagine, MLF is moving right along. The sample I pulled before the last stirring was extraordinarily clear. Pitch dark, but clear. I need to keep my paws off of it except to stir 2x/week.
> 
> I dropped 30 gr of French oak chips in the Chard bucket, too, last week.



Did you taste a sample of it? You can really tell if you degas the sample and taste a little bit whether the MLF is progressing. When it gets nice and soft to your taste buds, it's time to take a sample and run another test. I'm taking a sample of my Cab Franc before I pitch the MLB and storing it in the fridge in a sealed baggie until we do our next test, which will have your Chard, PS, my Zin and Cab Franc Burns.


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## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Did you taste a sample of it? You can really tell if you degas the sample and taste a little bit whether the MLF is progressing. When it gets nice and soft to your taste buds, it's time to take a sample and run another test. I'm taking a sample of my Cab Franc before I pitch the MLB and storing it in the fridge in a sealed baggie until we do our next test, which will have your Chard, PS, my Zin and Cab Franc Burns.



I did taste it. Very potent. I swirled it in the glass for while then let it sit in the glass for about 10 minutes. Probably best to wait a couple more weeks before testing it again.

The 1.5 bottle has a good bit of fine lees at the bottom of the bottle while the 375 doesn't seem to have any at all. 

Possible plan: Wait two weeks, test and maybe rack. Wait another 2 weeks, then Kmeta and let it age a year (dosing every 3 months).

I don't know about out your way, but it got pretty chilly in the basement last night. If I close the doors to the wine room, it will easily drop to the mid-50s.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I did taste it. Very potent. I swirled it in the glass for while then let it sit in the glass for about 10 minutes. Probably best to wait a couple more weeks before testing it again.
> 
> The 1.5 bottle has a good bit of fine lees at the bottom of the bottle while the 375 doesn't seem to have any at all.
> 
> Possible plan: Wait two weeks, test and maybe rack. Wait another 2 weeks, then Kmeta and let it age a year (dosing every 3 months).
> 
> I don't know about out your way, but it got pretty chilly in the basement last night. If I close the doors to the wine room, it will easily drop to the mid-50s.


Yea, heavy frost on the windshield this morning. At least that means the lawn will stop growing. With your plan, we can test in about two weeks, but don't plan on any movement or Kmeta until the test comes up negative and you wait another week or two. If you can't maintain a higher temperature downstairs I'd move those carboys upstairs. Your MLF might be inhibited if you start dropping below 65*F or so, I'd even aim for 70 if you can (that's right, you have a brew belt or something like it, maybe your belt/pad might help?).


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## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> If you can't maintain a higher temperature downstairs I'd move those carboys upstairs. Your MLF might be inhibited if you start dropping below 65*F or so, I'd even aim for 70 if you can (that's right, you have a brew belt or something like it, maybe your belt/pad might help?).



If I leave the doors open, the wine room will stay above 65* no problem. It's only when they're closed that the temps really dip (because there's no HVAC in there). I have a brew belt, too. I never attached it to a carboy before. 

So, I'll keep the doors open and attach the brew belt to the PS. It'll be fine.


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## jgmann67

Wine room temp was about 68* last night. Strapped the brewbelt on the PS. Will check the wine temp this evening when I get home from work.


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## jgmann67

Checked the wine and it's about 78* in there now.... Is that too high? Or do I just leave it for another week or so till we test again?


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## ceeaton

After Saturday morning (shows 36*F for York) the temps are supposed to moderate. I'd think you could maybe run it a few hours in the evening if at all. 68*F should be enough. Have you stirred lately, being careful not to introduce too much oxygen? I think that is the most important step. And do you have it elevated up on your bar, the higher the better since warm air rises?


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## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> After Saturday morning (shows 36*F for York) the temps are supposed to moderate. I'd think you could maybe run it a few hours in the evening if at all. 68*F should be enough. Have you stirred lately, being careful not to introduce too much oxygen? I think that is the most important step. And do you have it elevated up on your bar, the higher the better since warm air rises?



I'm scheduled to stir the wines tonight and am pretty careful doing it. The raised temps in the wine is causing it to release some co2. But, I'm worried that 80* is just too high. Will get past Saturday and let it coast.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I'm scheduled to stir the wines tonight and am pretty careful doing it. The raised temps in the wine is causing it to release some co2. But, I'm worried that 80* is just too high. Will get past Saturday and let it coast.



I'd unplug it tonight. I just went onto MoreWinemaking.com and it says 55*F minimum for that strain, I thought it had said 65*F, my mistake. Taste it and see if you notice any difference. I know it's a tough thing to do, but we can't just do the fun stuff, you know.


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## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I'd unplug it tonight. I just went onto MoreWinemaking.com and it says 55*F minimum for that strain, I thought it had said 65*F, my mistake. Taste it and see if you notice any difference. I know it's a tough thing to do, but we can't just do the fun stuff, you know.



fine...


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## jgmann67

I tasted the PS last night. The tannins are bracing. The nose and palate have more blueberry to them.


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## jgmann67

A week later. Will stir tonight and grab me a taste. Thinking next week for a chromo test. 

It's very clear. Amazingly so.


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## Boatboy24

I'll be finally getting around to pitching my MLB tonight on this and the other 3 batches. More lees than I thought I'd have after the initial racking. I may rack once more before I pitch. Though there is no evidence of H2S in there.


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## jgmann67

So, for you guys who have done a PS before - what should this taste like... about 4 weeks in, oaking in the carboy, almost 3 weeks into MLF?

It's super tannic. Blueberry on the noise and palate. But, other than that, I'm not sure if this is dramatically different than it was before MLF. It's softer and more drinkable. But, it tastes like it needs a couple years to mellow.


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## ibglowin

Um, thats what MLF does. Gets rid of a harsher acid and replaces it with a softer one.

And yes, forget about it for a couple of years except for SO2 maintenance and an occasional racking.........



jgmann67 said:


> So, for you guys who have done a PS before - what should this taste like... about 4 weeks in, oaking in the carboy, almost 3 weeks into MLF?
> 
> It's super tannic. Blueberry on the noise and palate. But, other than that, I'm not sure if this is dramatically different than it was before MLF. It's softer and more drinkable. But, it tastes like it needs a couple years to mellow.


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## jgmann67

ibglowin said:


> Um, thats what MLF does. Gets rid of a harsher acid and replaces it with a softer .




That's my question. How much softer should it be. This is my first time, so I'm not clear on HOW different it should be from when I first started MLF. So far, the answer is, "Not enough to transform the wine. But, enough to notice."


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## Johny99

Maybe notice, if it is good and tonic, as PS should be, give it time, lots of it. Mike is right, a couple of years


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> That's my question. How much softer should it be.



That's why we test it! Good to use your taste buds too, if it isn't done you now have a second sample to compare it to when it does complete. You might get to a point where the testing isn't necessary, just tasting (though I'd still do the chromography test for piece of mind).


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## jgmann67

So... what if there is little or no movement in MLF? I was hoping for some good news. But, that's unlikely if preliminary reports are any indication. 

The basement is getting cooler - about 64* ambient in there now.


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## Boatboy24

Get a brew belt.


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## jgmann67

Got one. Will find out the results and add the belt.


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## cmason1957

Are you stiring it once or twice a week? Mine are in my basement at about 65, chugging along well. I don't own a new belt. Don't worry about not arguing sulfites, yet. All will be well.


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## jgmann67

Twice a week. Temps have been 64-68 down there...


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## ceeaton

Sorry for the delay, I was out and about for most of the day, then we got a nasty line of T-Storms which made me change dinner from burgers and dogs to fried chicken fingers and fish (inside the garage, away from most of the heavy rain). I think we got about 3/4 inch of rain in about 45 minutes.


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## jgmann67

The PS seems a little lighter. But, not much. I'm thinking - increase temps, stay the course and remeasure in 2 weeks. If there's nothing going on, maybe consider pitching another MLB.


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## jgmann67

Side by side:






Ok, so the PS looks like it's done some MLF. Just not where I was hoping we'd be by now. Ah well...

@Craig - thank you!


----------



## ColemanM

My PS from 2015 still needs another two years probably to tame the tannins. It shows great promise though. Hard to taste the wine when one sip drys your mouth.


----------



## jgmann67

Temp is now close to 80*. There's definitely something going on in there now. Very hopeful that we see some progress...


----------



## Johnd

Jim, watch your high temps. I went back through the whole thread and couldn't see what MLB you selected, but cut and pasted the following from the Lallemand site on VP-41, noting that your wine is around 15%:

"Carefully monitor must temperature, which must be below 86 °F at lactic acid bacteria inoculation (alcohol < 5%vol) and below 80.6 °F when the level of 10 % of alcohol is reached"

Just don't let 'er heat up too much!!


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> Jim, watch your high temps. I went back through the whole thread and couldn't see what MLB you selected, but cut and pasted the following from the Lallemand site on VP-41, noting that your wine is around 15%:
> 
> "Carefully monitor must temperature, which must be below 86 °F at lactic acid bacteria inoculation (alcohol < 5%vol) and below 80.6 °F when the level of 10 % of alcohol is reached"
> 
> Just don't let 'er heat up too much!!



Thanks for the heads up. It was the White Labs WL675. The instructions give a minimum (55* F), but no max that I can see. I know others have had difficulty getting an MLF done with WL MLB, but it was all I could get my hands on. 

It's about 79*. If it gets any warmer, I'll pull the plug and let it cool a bit.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Thanks for the heads up. It was the White Labs WL675. The instructions give a minimum (55* F), but no max that I can see. I know others have had difficulty getting an MLF done with WL MLB, but it was all I could get my hands on.
> 
> It's about 79*. If it gets any warmer, I'll pull the plug and let it cool a bit.



Gotcha, just wanted to give you a heads up just in case.............


----------



## jgmann67

The wine edged slightly about the 80* mark. So, I unplugged the brew belt. In retrospect, I should have just pulled it off and attached it to the bucket of rose that I have going now. But, the basement is pretty warm because of the unseasonably high temps outside. With temps in the mid-50's all next week, I'm thinking I may have to plug it back in eventually - want to keep it in the mid to upper 70's.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> The wine edged slightly about the 80* mark. So, I unplugged the brew belt. In retrospect, I should have just pulled it off and attached it to the bucket of rose that I have going now. But, the basement is pretty warm because of the unseasonably high temps outside. With temps in the mid-50's all next week, I'm thinking I may have to plug it back in eventually - want to keep it in the mid to upper 70's.



I already know the answer to this one, but I'll float it anyway. You could take it upstairs and place it right next to the couch and emulate @Johnd 's decor? Be warmer up there in the TV room than downstairs?


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I already know the answer to this one, but I'll float it anyway. You could take it upstairs and place it right next to the couch and emulate @Johnd 's decor? Be warmer up there in the TV room than downstairs?



Yes, you do...


----------



## jgmann67

Since I was down in the wine room comparing three kits, I didn't want the ps to feel left out. 

It's been in the glass 10 minutes to allow some of the heat (alcohol) to dissipate. 

Fullest bodied wine I've ever made. So dark, it might stain my insides. Blueberry nose is prevalent. Dark chocolate and berry flavor. Tannic, but softer than it was. 

I think the brew belt over the last week may have helped. Hoping anyway.


----------



## jgmann67

Question: I'm thinking of adding another 60 grams of oak. Do it now? In aging? Or, no way, the 60 gr. I dropped already is enough?


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Question: I'm thinking of adding another 60 grams of oak. Do it now? In aging? Or, no way, the 60 gr. I dropped already is enough?



Well, is there any still in it now? How does it taste? You know it is gonna age for quite some time, so you have time for the oak to die back a bit. 2 oz (56 grams) is the recommended starting point for 5 gallons of wine, and you like the oak monster, so add it and use it as an excuse to taste it every week or so to monitor the oak's progress.

Just move the cubes over when you Kmeta and rack when MLF is done.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Well, is there any still in it now? How does it taste? You know it is gonna age for quite some time, so you have time for the oak to die back a bit. 2 oz (56 grams) is the recommended starting point for 5 gallons of wine, and you like the oak monster, so add it and use it as an excuse to taste it every week or so to monitor the oak's progress.
> 
> 
> 
> Just move the cubes over when you Kmeta and rack when MLF is done.




There's 60 gr of oak in it right now. That's what I was thinking , too. [emoji41]


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> There's 60 gr of oak in it right now. That's what I was thinking , too. [emoji41]



What are you adding? Remember I have a bag of American M+ cubes, 1 lb worth, 16 oz...have 15 oz at this point. Bag has a built in seal so I think they will remain fresh for some time. Just opened it yesterday, so they're still fresh. Yell if you need a few ounces, or a quarter or a half a pound. Am M+, vanilla baby!

Don't know what I was drinking when I ordered those, but I need to find another bottle of that since I was obviously feeling pretty darn good.


----------



## jgmann67

I have the remains of the French M and the Hungarian M+. Going to the cellar to drop them now. I do have some thoughts on the American M+ though.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I do have some thoughts on the American M+ though.



Thoughts on what was going through my mind when I ordered all of that, or thoughts for some potential usages in your wine cellar? I think I'm more open to the second option.


----------



## jgmann67

The second option. Will need to look at the notes, but maybe the Bravado could use some vanilla and roasted coffee in the background.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> The second option. Will need to look at the notes, but maybe the Bravado could use some vanilla and roasted coffee in the background.



All I know is when I retrieved an ounce yesterday from the bag, I had to wash the carbon off of my hands. It actually forced me to use the soap at the sink, the nerve of that oak.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> All I know is when I retrieved an ounce yesterday from the bag, I had to wash the carbon off of my hands. It actually forced me to use the soap at the sink, the nerve of that oak.




Carbon? That's crazy. 

I'll pull some samples tomorrow. Hopefully your brother is in the office. I should email him tonight to make sure. 

The added oak is settling nicely. I'm hoping that the warmer temps in the carboy did something nice for the MLF. I'd really like to rack this one soon.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Carbon? That's crazy.
> 
> I'll pull some samples tomorrow. Hopefully your brother is in the office. I should email him tonight to make sure.
> 
> The added oak is settling nicely. I'm hoping that the warmer temps in the carboy did something nice for the MLF. I'd really like to rack this one soon.



I would assume when you char wood (ie. oak barrel) you would get a carbon byproduct.

Will start the test tonight, my brother emailed me and said you had dropped off the samples.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I would assume when you char wood (ie. oak barrel) you would get a carbon byproduct.
> 
> Will start the test tonight, my brother emailed me and said you had dropped off the samples.



I should give him a bottle or two to show my appreciation for him being my wine mule.


----------



## jburtner

I find that it's just as easy to make full bottles disappear as it to make them appear and usually a trip to the cellar results in an occurrence of both with a smile 

Cheers,
johann


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I should give him a bottle or two to show my appreciation for him being my wine mule.



He doesn't like wine, he'll taste test it, but he's a beer kinda guy. His better half is into wine, she loves the Pinot Grigio so much that he's contracting me to make a batch for him to give her (as a surprise). I'll give him a White Zin bottle or three when that gets done, up to me to pay him back, not you. I can take him over to Moe's for dinner (hot wings) after work some time and foot the bill, he'd like that.

He just texted, the samples have arrived, I just need to go retrieve them.

Edit: got 'em, samples drying on the paper so I can soak it over night in the nastiness. He liked the Moe's idea (I think they have 18 types of wings).


----------



## ceeaton

The results are in, don't see much of a change (other than I took the shot in daylight so it's much brighter).


----------



## jgmann67

Nope. No change over 6 weeks. That's disappointing...

Okay - suggestions? I think I'm going to hit the PS again with an MLB tonight. The chard, which didn't have much malic acid to begin with, will get a dose of kmeta (I'm done messing with it).


----------



## jgmann67

So, I picked up something called Leucofood from my LHBS. It's supposed to be a nutrient for MLB. Since I haven't seen much of anything to signify an active MLF, I'm going to dose it with some food tonight. We'll see what happens.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> So, I picked up something called Leucofood from my LHBS. It's supposed to be a nutrient for MLB. Since I haven't seen much of anything to signify an active MLF, I'm going to dose it with some food tonight. We'll see what happens.



Where were they hiding that? Can't say I've ever seen it before, and I normally browse the store to get ideas. Hopefully it will get that MLF jump started. 

Another possible thought, though it is fraught with danger...I could give you some of the lees from my Zin or Cab Franc batch which I used CH16 in, or was it CH35?....either way, maybe that might work??


----------



## jgmann67

They just got it in on Monday. On the first aisle with other nutrients, oaks, etc.


----------



## jgmann67

So, it's 3 days since adding nutrient and 7 days later after re-dosing with the MLB. There are no visible signs of anything going on. I know, I know... be patient.


----------



## jgmann67

Update - I stirred again this morning and there was a good bit of tiny bubbles making their way to the top. That settled down after about 10 minutes. The brewbelt has been on most of the day and the wine temp is about 80* F last time I checked. There's a nice ring of bubbles at the top of the carboy, too. Not sure that's good or bad. Just hoping for the best.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Update - I stirred again this morning and there was a good bit of tiny bubbles making their way to the top. That settled down after about 10 minutes. The brewbelt has been on most of the day and the wine temp is about 80* F last time I checked. There's a nice ring of bubbles at the top of the carboy, too. Not sure that's good or bad. Just hoping for the best.



Just ran a chromo on all my fall stuff, the Lanza PS is the slowest, most others already done. The PS may just be slow, stick with it.


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> Just ran a chromo on all my fall stuff, the Lanza PS is the slowest, most others already done. The PS may just be slow, stick with it.




I'm a worrier... I know - not a good thing in winemaking. But, how long is too long? It's been two months and I'm concerned I haven't kmeta'ed the wine yet.

I was at the LHBS yesterday and asked about the nutrient - what to expect. He said that I was the first to try it and he's interested to know the answer to that question, too. That wasn't helpful.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> I'm a worrier... I know - not a good thing in winemaking. But, how long is too long? It's been two months and I'm concerned I haven't kmeta'ed the wine yet.
> 
> I was at the LHBS yesterday and asked about the nutrient - what to expect. He said that I was the first to try it and he's interested to know the answer to that question, too. That wasn't helpful.



I went four months on the Chileans before I finally sulfited, really no problems at all, other than the fact that it never completed, but that's another story. Just keep it at 70-75, and keep stirring. If you haven't seen any progress by next chromo, blame @ceeaton for getting you into this mess and make him get you some new MLB. Chuckle, chuckle, just kidding, give it time, mine is slow as well, despite everything else being done.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I'm a worrier... I know - not a good thing in winemaking. But, how long is too long? It's been two months and I'm concerned I haven't kmeta'ed the wine yet.
> 
> I was at the LHBS yesterday and asked about the nutrient - what to expect. He said that I was the first to try it and he's interested to know the answer to that question, too. That wasn't helpful.



In short, its not too long.

(I still haven't sulfited two of the four Chileans I have going.)


----------



## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> I went four months on the Chileans before I finally sulfited, really no problems at all, other than the fact that it never completed, but that's another story. Just keep it at 70-75, and keep stirring. If you haven't seen any progress by next chromo, blame @ceeaton for getting you into this mess and make him get you some new MLB. Chuckle, chuckle, just kidding, give it time, mine is slow as well, despite everything else being done.



I offered him dregs of my Zin batch that used CH16, and I'd lend him some of my kids to help stir as long as he kept them at his place, what more can a guy do?


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I offered him dregs of my Zin batch that used CH16, and I'd lend him some of my kids to help stir as long as he kept them at his place, what more can a guy do?



My responses were "Yes, please!" and "No, thankyouverymuch!" respectively.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> My responses were "Yes, please!" and "No, thankyouverymuch!" respectively.



I missed the "yes" to the dregs, I figured I knew the answer to the lending of kids.

Dregs will be bottled, capped and refrigerated in a sterilized beer bottle until I can get them to you. Was going to rack the Lanza Zin yesterday, but ran out of time (got into cooking and sampling too much). Planning on doing it tonight or tomorrow morning so I can get some more oak into it.

What days are you working this week? I gave my brother a bottle last night for my SIL, in a pinch, so he owes me a delivery, in my mind.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I missed the "yes" to the dregs, I figured I knew the answer to the lending of kids.
> 
> Dregs will be bottled, capped and refrigerated in a sterilized beer bottle until I can get them to you. Was going to rack the Lanza Zin yesterday, but ran out of time (got into cooking and sampling too much). Planning on doing it tonight or tomorrow morning so I can get some more oak into it.
> 
> What days are you working this week? I gave my brother a bottle last night for my SIL, in a pinch, so he owes me a delivery, in my mind.



Working through Wednesday. We sampled the Eclipse OVZ over the weekend. Very young, tasty but needs more time. My wife's favorite is still the SLD Merlot. Time will tell. I think you'll like it.


----------



## jgmann67

Samples out for testing at the CEEaton Wine Lab. The wine gets a good stir ever 2 or 3 days. After this morning's stir, I did notice a lot of little shiny bubbles making their way to the top of the carboy (we're talking micro bubbles here). Not sure if that's a sign of activity or a byproduct of a good stir. Let's hope it's the former.


----------



## Boatboy24

My PS is all but done with MLF (as is the Syrah). The cab and Zin are moving a little slower, but getting close. I will likely rack and stabilize all of them in about two weeks. Haven't tasted since press, but they are smelling quite nice.


----------



## Johnd

I looked at my PS this morning, the last one left to complete MLF, I too noticed lots of tiny bubbles making their way up to the neck of the carboy. Unsure whether it is just releasing gas or MLF, but will be doing another chromo this weekend to see where every thing stands.

I expect to be sulfiting and moving both of the cabs to the wine room, as well as the merlot, and expect to have seen some progress on the PS.


----------



## jgmann67

Results are in and there doesn't seem to be any real movement. 

I'm at a loss as to what to do now.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Results are in and there doesn't seem to be any real movement.
> 
> I'm at a loss as to what to do now.
> 
> View attachment 32690



Firstly, don't cry in your Franc Burns, it ain't over yet, not by a long shot, when the going gets tough, the tough........well you get the inspirational pep talk stuff, right? Still early. Run through and revisit your parameters to see that they're in line, then just stay the course.......regular stirring, no sulfite, moderate temps at 70-75


----------



## jgmann67

Lol - I know, I know. 

I hit it twice with white lab MLF. And, gave it some MLF nutrient a few weeks ago. I stir every couple days and keep the brew belt on it. Do I feed it any more nutrient (first dose was only 1.2g)? I don't think I want to dose it again with MLF. But, it might be okay.. I don't know.


----------



## Boatboy24

Refresh my memory: what are you pH and ABV? Ambient temp? 

Again, mixed reviews on the White Lab bacteria. I'd encourage you to look into CH35 - it is geared to work in difficult conditions (ie low pH and high ABV). It will only add about $1/bottle to the cost of this batch and has cranked along with my PS.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Lol - I know, I know.
> 
> I hit it twice with white lab MLF. And, gave it some MLF nutrient a few weeks ago. I stir every couple days and keep the brew belt on it. Do I feed it any more nutrient (first dose was only 1.2g)? I don't think I want to dose it again with MLF. But, it might be okay.. I don't know.



I've not used the White Lab MLB, and in my research found lots of folks who do well with it, and others who have had struggles getting it to finish. It seems as though the workhorse MLB's are VP41, CH35, and Beta, although I've no personal experience with the latter two. 

Can't recall where you are in the time line, but perhaps consider a different strain. I left my Lanza PS at Brix 24.9, which is kinda up there on the tolerance line, if yours is the same, maybe one that can handle some higher ABV than your current one. 

I also pitched my MLB just after AF started, so it got established while the ABV was near zero and worked along with the increasing ABV instead of getting pitched into a higher ABV environment, if that even makes a difference???


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Refresh my memory: what are you pH and ABV? Ambient temp?
> 
> Again, mixed reviews on the White Lab bacteria. I'd encourage you to look into CH35 - it is geared to work in difficult conditions (ie low pH and high ABV). It will only add about $1/bottle to the cost of this batch and has cranked along with my PS.



I haven't measured Ph since pressing. I'll have to look back in this thread or, hopefully, Craig has it handy. IIRC the Ph was in a nice range and the ABV was just shy of around 15%.

It's in a cool basement, with the brewbelt on, so the temps stay above 75* F in the carboy. I stirred again this morning and (again) saw the micro-bubbles. I will look into other strains of MLB.


----------



## ceeaton

After pressing: pH 3.73, TA 6.7g/L.

You could always send a sample and I could test again, doubt it has changed much. I think I still have the small seal-able container you gave me to bring home and test after I got my new meter (if I remember correctly the new meter was in the mail due to arrive within a few days).


----------



## cmason1957

This is from memory, but many mlb have an upper limit of 14-14.5. You certainly want to try another strain of bacteria.


----------



## jgmann67

I'm weighing options between the CH35 and CH16. The former reads like it's set up for rose and white wines; while the latter is set up for reds and will tolerate 16% abv.


----------



## Boatboy24

16 is good for high ABV, as you said. 35 is geared more toward high acid (ie: low pH), but can still tolerate 14% ABV.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> 16 is good for high ABV, as you said. 35 is geared more toward high acid (ie: low pH), but can still tolerate 14% ABV.



Since mine (and yours too) is pretty normal, it seems like 16 is the route to go. But, I'd just want to be sure that it gets the job done.


----------



## jgmann67

I put in an order on some VP41 dry MLB. It will get here next week and we'll dose and see what happens. 

Anyone have any suggestions on making sure this one takes?


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I put in an order on some VP41 dry MLB. It will get here next week and we'll dose and see what happens.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions on making sure this one takes?



Sorry, been away, kids you know...

Good choice on bacteria, that is the standard bullet proof version, that's why it's more expensive, IMHO. Did you order any Acti-ML to rehydrate it in? It is supposed to help in:

_Acti-ML is a Malolactic nutrient used during rehydration of both direct inoculation and standard-type Malolactic Bacteria strains. It is a specific blend of inactive yeasts rich in amino acids, mineral cofactors and vitamins. These inactive yeasts are mixed with cellulose to provide more surface area to help keep the bacteria in suspension. Acti-ML can help strengthen the development of bacteria growth under difficult conditions._

This just happens to be your lucky day if you didn't order any and want to use it. I ordered one too many packages from MoreWinemaking.com and have it sittin' right here. I can give to Steve to deliver on Monday, if he's actually working that day. Or I can just drop it in a standard letter and you'll probably get it Monday or Tuesday, since all my mail goes to Lancaster, just for fun. Just lemme know!


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Sorry, been away, kids you know...
> 
> 
> 
> Good choice on bacteria, that is the standard bullet proof version, that's why it's more expensive, IMHO. Did you order any Acti-ML to rehydrate it in? It is supposed to help in:
> 
> 
> 
> _Acti-ML is a Malolactic nutrient used during rehydration of both direct inoculation and standard-type Malolactic Bacteria strains. It is a specific blend of inactive yeasts rich in amino acids, mineral cofactors and vitamins. These inactive yeasts are mixed with cellulose to provide more surface area to help keep the bacteria in suspension. Acti-ML can help strengthen the development of bacteria growth under difficult conditions._
> 
> 
> 
> This just happens to be your lucky day if you didn't order any and want to use it. I ordered one too many packages from MoreWinemaking.com and have it sittin' right here. I can give to Steve to deliver on Monday, if he's actually working that day. Or I can just drop it in a standard letter and you'll probably get it Monday or Tuesday, since all my mail goes to Lancaster, just for fun. Just lemme know!




The VP is due in a week. I struggled with whether to order the Acti-ML. I didn't pull the trigger on it. So, yes! I would be happy to take the extra off your hands.


----------



## jgmann67

Btw - when I check the wine, the top looks like this:




Is that MLF or just o2 release? No idea.


----------



## Boatboy24

Shine a light on it. Do you see the tiny bubbles rising? Could just be degassing, but it could be MLF. My PS took a few weeks before I had any visible bubbles. The Zin and cab even longer.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Shine a light on it. Do you see the tiny bubbles rising? Could just be degassing, but it could be MLF. My PS took a few weeks before I had any visible bubbles. The Zin and cab even longer.




The only bubbles I've seen are the micro bubbles after a good stir. About 15 min later, there's nothing going on that I can see.


----------



## ceeaton

How long after stirring did you take that image? Looks like MLF to me, or at least that is what my latest batches looked like. Micro bubbles on the edges, but nothing spectacular that would make you think something is actually happening. MLB is stealthy, like someone who robs you blind in the middle of the night and you don't realize it until you notice things missing three days later...

You can probably tell I'm drinking and haven't had dinner yet, need some carbs, just not from beer or wine.


----------



## jgmann67

Okay. Slow down there, cowboy. Go get yer self some vittles. 

We just had some homemade chicken and gnocchi soup with my favorite chard. Good on a chilly night like tonight.

That was taken about 10-15 min after a stir.


----------



## ceeaton

Vittles ingested. Well, if them there bubbles are in the neck on a regular basis, I think maybe something is starting up, hopefully.

If not you have some VP41 coming to the rescue!


----------



## Johnd

Take @ceeaton up on the ActiML offer, seems like good insurance. My current batches of wine went off without a hitch with VP 41, including the Lanza PS, my Chileans didn't do crap with two separate additions. Go figure......


----------



## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> Take @ceeaton up on the ActiML offer, seems like good insurance. My current batches of wine went off without a hitch with VP 41, including the Lanza PS, my Chileans didn't do crap with two separate additions. Go figure......



Did you use the Acti-ML with the Chilean batches? If so maybe there is a language barrier in there somewhere (they didn't know that they were supposed to do the MLF thing, try swearing at them in a different language).

Okay, just shoot me.


----------



## Johnd

ceeaton said:


> Did you use the Acti-ML with the Chilean batches? If so maybe there is a language barrier in there somewhere (they didn't know that they were supposed to do the MLF thing, try swearing at them in a different language).
> 
> Okay, just shoot me.



Yep, ActiML, and the OptiMalo nutrients. I swore at them more than once, only in English, but in the end, decided to make the wine the way the wine wanted to be made, so they're sulfited and barrel aging now


----------



## jgmann67

I went to the wine room to fetch up a bottle of my Aussie Chard and took a peak at the PS. I haven't touched it since yesterday. Shined a light on the top to find..... BUBBLES!!!!


Looks like I've got an active MLF starting up. Fingers crossed.


----------



## jgmann67

Two days later and the bubbles continue. 

The VP is due this weekend. Probably a good idea to measure again before adding mor MLB. If I don't use it, I can hold it for later use.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Probably a good idea to measure again before adding more MLB. \



I'd wait until at least early next week to do the next test. It could be working but might not show results we can see on the test any quicker than that.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I'd wait until at least early next week to do the next test. It could be working but might not show results we can see on the test any quicker than that.




Good call. I gave it a good stir this morning. Lotsa bubbles. We'll schedule a test next week.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Good call. I gave it a good stir this morning. Lotsa bubbles. We'll schedule a test next week.



Just give it to my brother like last time and PM me. He should be over the plague by now I would hope.


----------



## jgmann67

Received the VP in the mail... in a shoebox, packed in an envelope with a cooler pack in it. For dehydrated MLB, shipped in December? Okey doke. It's in the fridge with the nutrient.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Received the VP in the mail... in a shoebox, packed in an envelope with a cooler pack in it. For dehydrated MLB, shipped in December? Okey doke. It's in the fridge with the nutrient.



Stick it in the freezer, it'll keep for a year. If you end up not needing it for the PS, keep it til next Fall.......


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Received the VP in the mail... in a shoebox, packed in an envelope with a cooler pack in it. For dehydrated MLB, shipped in December? Okey doke. It's in the fridge with the nutrient.



Where did you buy it?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Where did you buy it?




Midwest Supplies.


----------



## jgmann67

Aaaaaaaand the bubbles have stopped. Other than when the wine gets its stir - I'm not seeing any activity. Going to give it a taste this morning (which is perfectly normal) and see if anything has changed.


----------



## Boatboy24

Just because the bubbles stopped doesn't mean there's nothing going on.


----------



## stickman

Your only chance of seeing bubbles is when the wine reaches saturation with CO2, if you disturb the wine and cause CO2 to be released, the wine will no longer be saturated and will require some time before it reaches saturation again. The time to reach saturation again, depends on the rate of ML activity, as well as how far you knocked down the concentration of CO2 in the wine while stirring.


----------



## jgmann67

I had a little taste this morning and it is a vastly different wine than it was a month ago. Still very tannic, but softer and more pleasant and flavorful than before. 

I'm really kinda giddy at the notion that the MLF is actually happening. 

The VP and nutrient are in the freezer. I may drop it after the next test... I'm hoping not.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I'm really kinda giddy at the notion that the MLF is actually happening.



The whole process kinda makes you giddy, doesn't it? I mean, you just took raw grapes, and have made them into wine. And that wine is getting better each day.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> The whole process kinda makes you giddy, doesn't it? I mean, you just took raw grapes, and have made them into wine. And that wine is getting better each day.




Yep! I'm glad it takes so much time, too... no really, I am.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Aaaaaaaand the bubbles have stopped. Other than when the wine gets its stir - I'm not seeing any activity. Going to give it a taste this morning (which is perfectly normal) and see if anything has changed.



Don't be surprised if it is done. That CH16 is some really mean stuff. I plan on that being my go to MLB until it lets me down. Remember, my Lanza Zin was done in 10 days, at least that is when I tested it, could have been done before that. And the temperature was pretty low (below 65*F). If the bubbles aren't showing up in the next few days, send a sample home with my Brother and we'll do a comparative test against the last sample. If it shows no movement you can pitch the VP41 and not waste too much more time.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Don't be surprised if it is done. That CH16 is some really mean stuff. I plan on that being my go to MLB until it lets me down. Remember, my Lanza Zin was done in 10 days, at least that is when I tested it, could have been done before that. And the temperature was pretty low (below 65*F). If the bubbles aren't showing up in the next few days, send a sample home with my Brother and we'll do a comparative test against the last sample. If it shows no movement you can pitch the VP41 and not waste too much more time.




I stirred this afternoon and got some bubble-age. Still a little going on about 7 hours later. I'm hoping that's the case. That it's pretty much done and I can dose, rack and set it aside a while. 

Oh, here's a question - I have 2.25 liters in the bottle that hasn't been tested at all. What do I do about that? 

Let's plan a test maybe Thursday.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Oh, here's a question - I have 2.25 liters in the bottle that hasn't been tested at all. What do I do about that?
> .



Well, do you have two syringes? Just mark them "A" and "B" or "1" and "2" or "Red" and "Green" or something along those lines, and I'll test it beside the others. You've seen some of @Johnd and @Boatboy24 's tests, they can fit 20 or so on a sheet, I think three will fit just fine!

As far as the 2 1/4 Litres, did you add any of the slurry I gave you to that one? If not I'd siphon some lees from your big carboy and add it to the smaller one and see if any activity occurs. You can also siphon off 2 1/4 litres into another container and add the non-tested 2 /14 litre stuff to the big carboy. If MLF is truly happening to the big carboy, it will eat the malic in that 2.25 litres as an after dinner snack.


----------



## jgmann67

I like the idea of swapping it out. Will work that out.


----------



## ceeaton

And the results are in....

Early PN (center of sheet) is original sample from the 11-29-16 test.
PN1 - from the big carboy
PN2 - from the bottle

Looking good Billy Ray! Feeling good Louis!


I'd give it a week or so to make sure it is complete (complete on this type of test is 30 ppm or lower), or maybe longer since you added the bottle still full of the malic.

Note to self, don't put wet test sheet in garage to drip dry (before hanging in basement) when it is 10*F outside.


----------



## Boatboy24

ceeaton said:


> Looking good Billy Ray! Feeling good Louis!



That's a strong quote. Very strong. My high school friends and I use that one all the time. Nicely done. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSjlq9o88M[/ame]


----------



## jgmann67

Wahoo!!! Okay. I'm going to swap 1.5 liters out, wait a few weeks, then dose.

Thank you Craig!


----------



## ceeaton

I did a little dance when I saw the results!

I think the kids think I'm possessed.


----------



## jgmann67

So, I pulled a 1.5 out of the carboy and then poured the old (malic acid filled) bottle in to the carboy. Given the headspace left, I poured most of the half bottle in too. 

The rest made for a nice taste at 9:00 this morning. 

I'll wait two weeks at least before sulfiting the wine in the carboy - let the MLF finish up. I did add a little Kmeta solution to the new bottle to ensure there were at least some sulfites in there.


----------



## jgmann67

Trading Places was on last night. [emoji41]

So, January 7th at the earliest, I think one more test then sulfite and we'll go into clearing the wine.


----------



## jgmann67

The wine is less active now. Co2 really only turns out when I stir it.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> The wine is less active now. Co2 really only turns out when I stir it.



Almost swooped down today, was up in Lemoyne and realized Scotzins was closed for the day. Two of my five stops were unproductive. I also remembered your earlier post saying you didn't want to test until January 7th. So I went to the Giant and headed home, disappointed.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Almost swooped down today, was up in Lemoyne and realized Scotzins was closed for the day. Two of my five stops were unproductive. I also remembered your earlier post saying you didn't want to test until January 7th. So I went to the Giant and headed home, disappointed.




Awwww. I was just down racking the Super Tuscan and washing bottles today. Got lots of diamonds out of the ST.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Awwww. I was just down racking the Super Tuscan and washing bottles today. Got lots of diamonds out of the ST.



'Tis the season for diamonds in our neck of the woods. Had a bunch on my Brunello batch I just racked the other day.


----------



## ceeaton

My brother dropped off a sample of wine. Is this from the big batch with the small batch added? And should I use the original sample I still have as a comparison?


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> My brother dropped off a sample of wine. Is this from the big batch with the small batch added? And should I use the original sample I still have as a comparison?




Sorry - got busy and meant to warn you it was coming. It's from the carboy with the 1.5 swapped in/out. Yes, I think the original for comparison would be fine.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Sorry - got busy and meant to warn you it was coming. It's from the carboy with the 1.5 swapped in/out. Yes, I think the original for comparison would be fine.



Good, that's what I did! Great minds drink alike.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Sorry - got busy and meant to warn you it was coming. It's from the carboy with the 1.5 swapped in/out. Yes, I think the original for comparison would be fine.



And the results are in. I was originally worried I'd have to rerun the test. Left it out in the garage and it was colder than I expected. Got home to a dry yellow sheet, and thought sh*t, I've gotta rerun this bugger. Brought it into the warmth inside, have a place in the basement where a register blows directly on it, and within three hours I got this image. Looks pretty done to me. Hard to get the right exposure, I prefer to take shots of these sheets in the daylight.

Oh, PS1 was one of the earlier samples done 11-28-16, PS2 is the newest one.


----------



## Boatboy24

Agree. PS2 is done.


----------



## jgmann67

Excellent! Thank you again, Craig! We'll dose tonight and rack n' clear next. 

Jim, what did you do with yours after MLF?


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Excellent! Thank you again, Craig! We'll dose tonight and rack n' clear next.
> 
> Jim, what did you do with yours after MLF?



Rack, KMETA and 'fugghetaboutit'. Actually just took the chromo paper out to dry. Will hopefully be doing that racking later today or tomorrow.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Excellent! Thank you again, Craig! We'll dose tonight and rack n' clear next.
> 
> Jim, what did you do with yours after MLF?



I'll see my Sister in an hour or two and give her a baggie with the test paper in it so you can hang it on your MLF trophy wall...sort of like the dollar bill in the picture frame for people who open a new business.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I'll see my Sister in an hour or two and give her a baggie with the test paper in it so you can hang it on your MLF trophy wall...sort of like the dollar bill in the picture frame for people who open a new business.




Ha! Test paper suitable for framing.


----------



## jgmann67

So Craig and I combined a 375 of his Lanza Zinfandel and a 375 of my Lanza Petite Sirah. It's now in a 750 bottle and will settle over the next month or so. 

Looking forward to what this two-headed monster will taste like.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So Craig and I combined a 375 of his Lanza Zinfandel and a 375 of my Lanza Petite Sirah. It's now in a 750 bottle and will settle over the next month or so.
> 
> Looking forward to what this two-headed monster will taste like.



I suspect you will like the results.


----------



## jburtner

The Two Headed Lanza Mansta?


----------



## jgmann67

A Tale of Two Lanzas?



> I suspect you will like the results.



I think we will, too, Jim. These two big wines are hugely compatible.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> A Tale of Two Lanzas?
> 
> 
> 
> I think we will, too, Jim. These two big wines are hugely compatible.



I know I'll have a little of that same blend myself. Maybe not the same ratio, but certainly a combo of those two wines.


----------



## Boatboy24

Tasted mine on Friday. Very nice. Ultra dry - almost chalky. Gonna be great in that blend, but on its own as well. Good fruit in the background that seems to be trying to come out.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> So Craig and I combined a 375 of his Lanza Zinfandel and a 375 of my Lanza Petite Sirah. It's now in a 750 bottle and will settle over the next month or so.
> 
> Looking forward to what this two-headed monster will taste like.



Tonight I'm doing an "around the world" tasting of the carboys, since most of them need racked and Kmeta'd, and I usually try and taste before adding more Kmeta. First two were the Lanza Zin and the local Cab Franc. I'd love to try a 45% Petite Sirah, 45% Lanza Zin and a 10% Cab Franc. There is just something that can't be easily described about the Cab Franc. I added some to my Zin "trial" glass, and it seemed to marry up pretty nicely. I'll have to get you another 375 of the Zin along with a 375 of the Cab Franc and let you blend. I think it is something worth pursuing.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Tonight I'm doing an "around the world" tasting of the carboys, since most of them need racked and Kmeta'd, and I usually try and taste before adding more Kmeta. First two were the Lanza Zin and the local Cab Franc. I'd love to try a 45% Petite Sirah, 45% Lanza Zin and a 10% Cab Franc. There is just something that can't be easily described about the Cab Franc. I added some to my Zin "trial" glass, and it seemed to marry up pretty nicely. I'll have to get you another 375 of the Zin along with a 375 of the Cab Franc and let you blend. I think it is something worth pursuing.




That sounds like a great idea. I have a 750 of the PS that we can use to experiment.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Tasted mine on Friday. Very nice. Ultra dry - almost chalky. Gonna be great in that blend, but on its own as well. Good fruit in the background that seems to be trying to come out.




Tasted mine after church this morning. Dramatically different wine. Powerful with an inner calm. Dry with a blueberry aftertaste.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> That sounds like a great idea. I have a 750 of the PS that we can use to experiment.


I'll extract a 750 of the Zin and a 375 of the Cab Franc since they are both due to be racked in early March. Just need to work on a topping wine since I think the Dornfelder is a bit too strong for the Cab Franc. Probably fine for the Zin.


----------



## jgmann67

Has anyone bottled their wine from last fall yet? Can't wait to taste this again. Was thinking of bottling at 9 months or a year.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Has anyone bottled their wine from last fall yet? Can't wait to taste this again. Was thinking of bottling at 9 months or a year.



I can tell someone isn't busy campaigning anymore, whatever happened to extended aging and ignoring your wine?

I was thinking the same for the Lanza Zin, but I'm trying to have patience. I would like to taste that blend you made up, wasn't it 50/50?


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Has anyone bottled their wine from last fall yet? Can't wait to taste this again. Was thinking of bottling at 9 months or a year.



Mine's not bottled yet, still in glass, but due for a racking and tasting pretty soon. At last taste, it was going through a blah phase, but I'm expecting improvement.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I can tell someone isn't busy campaigning anymore, whatever happened to extended aging and ignoring your wine?
> 
> I was thinking the same for the Lanza Zin, but I'm trying to have patience. I would like to taste that blend you made up, wasn't it 50/50?




Idle hands....

Whether I bottle or not, I do need to rack the four wines I have aging.


----------



## Boatboy24

I need to do a barrel swap. Zin and Petite Sirah have been in a little longer than planned and its time for the Cab and Syrah. They may have a shorter time, as I will need to bottle in August or early September to make room for 2017.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Idle hands....
> 
> Whether I bottle or not, I do need to rack the four wines I have aging.



It is certainly nice to see you back on the wine trail!!!!


----------



## jgmann67

We need to taste the PS- Zin half n half soon.


----------



## jgmann67

Having a glass of the Petit Sirah from a taster. Very tannic, with an almost sour finish at first. As it gets a little air, that sour fades a bit and the tannins soften (or maybe it's just that I'm three or four sips into this monster). Very dark and full bodied. 

This seems to be 6 months away from bottling (at least) and another year or two from being ready to go.

Looking forward to sampling the 50/50 blend. The PS has massive structure and deep color, with fresh blueberries on the palate. Combine that with black fruit jam and pepper of a Zin in equal doses and it could be something very nice.

UPDATE:

Half a day later and I poured a second glass of the monster. Still tannic, but mellowed with more fruit and no real sour on the finish. Still marvel at how dark it is.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Half a day later and I poured a second glass of the monster. Still tannic, but mellowed with more fruit and no real sour on the finish. Still marvel at how dark it is.



Since I'm working on early stage Alzheimer's, I saw on the first post that you "dropped some tannins in" and remember at the time I was going to question it since that grape can be rather tannic in nature. So what tannins did you add and what quantity? Might hold off the wine being drinkable for a time, but will probably help it to age for quite some time (if you can be patient, which I know I'm not).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Since I'm working on early stage Alzheimer's, I saw on the first post that you "dropped some tannins in" and remember at the time I was going to question it since that grape can be rather tannic in nature. So what tannins did you add and what quantity? Might hold off the wine being drinkable for a time, but will probably help it to age for quite some time (if you can be patient, which I know I'm not).




I don't recall exactly. I think it was a sub for Opti-Red. Funny thing, I'm pretty sure I got it from you. 

I think we crack that half n half this weekend and see if we want to mix up some more.


----------



## jgmann67

I racked the PS off the finer silt at the bottom of the carboy over the weekend. Getting antsy. Think this weekend should be good for tasting the blend.

The ap is acting snotty and won't let me post a pm. Craig, let me know what your schedule looks like.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> I racked the PS off the finer silt at the bottom of the carboy over the weekend. Getting antsy. Think this weekend should be good for tasting the blend.
> 
> The ap is acting snotty and won't let me post a pm. Craig, let me know what your schedule looks like.



That makes more sense, I got three of the same PM from you within a minute or so of each other. I'll let you know as soon as the bee hive members of our house hold let me know if I will have my car for Saturday, otherwise it will have to be Sunday.

Edit: I'm thinking I could bring a couple of glasses of the Zin vacuvin'ed, that way we could taste the blend, then each of the components separately, and possibly make a small blend of a different percentage if we don't like the 50/50 blend. Your thoughts here or P.M.'ed.


----------



## jgmann67

The 50/50 is a genuinely a good wine, even in its youth. We're going to make more. .


----------



## ceeaton

Still a monster but in a good way. The Zin pH and TA should bump up the PS a bit, I think that is why it tasted so darn good. Amazed such a young powerful wine could be so drinkable. Still has enough gripping tannins to age for quite some time, if it lasts. Thanks again for Jim putting up with me all afternoon. His dogs are very entertaining, especially the one that dives into the pool on his command (need a video of that one, it's hilarious).

Almost forgot, the blend paired really well with Asiago cheese, was a perfect match.

And it has quite the set of legs!


----------



## jgmann67

I say we blend some more and let it sit in the carboy another 6 months, then bottle.


----------



## jgmann67

A pic or two of the blend


----------



## ibglowin

Oh dear Lord, 

What is this wine now like 9 months old........ ????? 

Please leave it alone so it can age! 



ceeaton said:


> Still a monster but in a good way.......


----------



## Johnd

ibglowin said:


> Oh dear Lord,
> 
> What is this wine now like 9 months old........ ?????
> 
> Please leave it alone so it can age!



I'm not going to type the cute little acronym. I literally laughed out loud at my desk when I read that comment!!!!!!


----------



## jgmann67

ibglowin said:


> Oh dear Lord,
> 
> What is this wine now like 9 months old........ ?????
> 
> Please leave it alone so it can age!




We'll blend, then age. Bottle and store. Another year or two till it will be drinkable.


----------



## ceeaton

ibglowin said:


> Oh dear Lord,
> 
> What is this wine now like 9 months old........ ?????
> 
> Please leave it alone so it can age!



I didn't (couldn't) tip the carboy since it isn't blended yet! Plus the blend will be at Jim's house not mine, so I can't fiddle with it (by design).

I actually have three of my wines in the carboy for over a year, and a fourth will be two years in September, I'm at least going in the right direction as far as wine aging goes.


----------



## jgmann67

It will be safe in my basement.


----------



## ibglowin

Lets see you guys got 3 whole lugs of PS grapes 9 months ago and made that into ~6 gallons of wine that your gonna split.

Its been 9 months and you have 22 pages of post in this wine thread which works out to about ~ 1 post per day!

Your gonna blend it with some Zin, Cab Franc, your sippin on it out by the pool...... 

If even one bottle of this wine makes it to the two year mark (which is when this wine will actually first become remotely drinkable with lots of air) I will be surprised!

Pics of any of this wine making it to the two year mark or it never happened! LOL




jgmann67 said:


> It will be safe in my basement.


----------



## jgmann67

ibglowin said:


> If even one bottle of this wine makes it to the two year mark (which is when this wine will actually first become remotely drinkable with lots of air) I will be surprised!
> 
> Pics of any of this wine making it to the two year mark or it never happened! LOL




You're on, bubba. 

I'll blend 3 gal of PS and 3 gal of Zin soon. It will sit next to my remaining 3 gal of PS for the next 6 months. And age another 6-12 months in the bottle.


----------



## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> If even one bottle of this wine makes it to the two year mark (which is when this wine will actually first become remotely drinkable with lots of air) I will be surprised!
> Pics of any of this wine making it to the two year mark or it never happened! LOL
> 
> You're on, bubba.
> I'll blend 3 gal of PS and 3 gal of Zin soon. It will sit next to my remaining 3 gal of PS for the next 6 months. And age another 6-12 months in the bottle.



I love to see a good challenge issued, and it's even better when there's a taker!!! If it was just @ceeaton, my money would definitely be on @ibglowin, but I'm sensing a very resolute bit of attitude and pride from @jgmann67, so I'm thinking it's even money either way! In either case, I hope the wine wins!!

FWIW, my PS from the same vintage and time frame is still in bulk in a 6 gallon carboy, hoping to get it into a neutral barrel soon for a 6 month sit with some Wine Stix. Plan to get it bottled by next spring.


----------



## jgmann67

I am terribly competitive, unfortunately.


----------



## ceeaton

Johnd said:


> If it was just @ceeaton, my money would definitely be on @ibglowin, but I'm sensing a very resolute bit of attitude and pride from @jgmann67, so I'm thinking it's even money either way! In either case, I hope the wine wins!!



Ever since @JohnT ruined me with that 40 days without wine thing, I've had troubles drinking the volumes of alcohol I was before. I actually have no interest in bottling any of my red wines, except maybe the Dornfelder from Sept 2015. I very well may not make any wine this Fall, unless my wife requests a batch. On a side note I've noticed my appetite for food has decreased as my wine/beer intake has decreased, and that decrease is what is helping me keep a slow steady weight loss pace intact, which has become more important to me than drinking my life away. I'm down around 35 lbs since January 1st.


----------



## jgmann67

I never did post up the readings from when Craig was out last. Ph of 3.95 and a TA of 5.5.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I never did post up the readings from when Craig was out last. Ph of 3.95 and a TA of 5.5.



I'll try to do a quick pH measurement on mine tonight.


----------



## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> If it was just @ceeaton, my money would definitely be on @ibglowin, but I'm sensing a very resolute bit of attitude and pride from @jgmann67, so I'm thinking it's even money either way! In either case, I hope the wine wins!!





True story - twenty-five years ago, my first wife told me my plan to get out of the Army to earn my bachelors degree and go to law school was a waste of time... it would be too difficult and I wouldn't be any good at it (according to her). 



Finished my BS in 3 years at PSU and went to law school at night - working full time (or three part-time jobs) to make ends meet. Inspiration comes in all forms. But, whenever I had any doubts about my chosen path, I just thought about that conversation.


----------



## jgmann67

So, BBJim - what is your Ph and TA? Hoping you got to check.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> So, BBJim - what is your Ph and TA? Hoping you got to check.



I haven't checked. You trying to get me to go tip the carboy?


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> I haven't checked. You trying to get me to go tip the carboy?




Mwaaaahahahahah!


----------



## jgmann67

Doing some reading this morning on Ph. Found a simple article in WMM - here:

https://winemakermag.com/1650-monitoring-adjusting-ph

Is my Ph really supposed to be around 3.6? And, if my TA is already high, does that limit what I can do to drop my Ph? 

(Dammit, Jim - I'm a lawyer, not a chemist!)


----------



## Boatboy24

With this wine, I'd say your pH is high and your TA is low. In other words; by the numbers, you don't have enough acid. But wine isn't just about the numbers - its about balance and taste and perception. My 2015 PS had similar numbers after more than a year. It tasted great, but I did a bench trial, adding a small amount of tartaric. Wow, did that wake it up. Do some bench trials, bringing your pH down to about 3.75 and see what you think.


----------



## jgmann67

Sounds like a plan.


----------



## ibglowin

You can't just follow pH on a red wine. You have to balance TA against pH. Some wines buffer pH (acid additions) better than others. Run a TA test in duplicate and see where your at. If you get to the top of the TA range and your pH is still high you need to stop and let it be. If you keep adding more you risk ending up with too much acid making a tart red wine that will always be tart. Use your taste buds as well obviously.

Plenty of wines being sold and garnering big bicks and high praise that have pH's in the 3.8 range or even a little higher. Just sulfite to the pH and be happy. They will last long enough for you and @ceeaton to drink them. 



jgmann67 said:


> Sounds like a plan.


----------



## jgmann67

Thanks Mike. I'll test the TA again and consider doing incremental adjustments. I'm not entirely sure what is "optimal" when it comes to TA. But it appears that mine, at least in the last test we did, was low. So, adjusting TA up to drop pH down makes sense to me. From there, yes - sulfite accordingly and enjoy the wine (when it's ready).


----------



## ibglowin

On a red wine usually 0.6-0.8 (g/ml) is the sweet spot.



jgmann67 said:


> I'm not entirely sure what is "optimal" when it comes to TA. But it appears that mine, at least in the last test we did, was low. So, adjusting TA up to drop pH down makes sense to me. From there, yes - sulfite accordingly and enjoy the wine (when it's ready).


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Thanks Mike. I'll test the TA again and consider doing incremental adjustments. I'm not entirely sure what is "optimal" when it comes to TA. But it appears that mine, at least in the last test we did, was low. So, adjusting TA up to drop pH down makes sense to me. From there, yes - sulfite accordingly and enjoy the wine (when it's ready).



For the blend the Lanza Zin should help out a bit, my pre MLF numbers were a pH of 3.54 and TA of 7.8 g/L (or .78 g/ml). Guess I gotta test it again at some point. I swear I did but we must have been all out of writing utensils at the time, because I don't see it in my notes, maybe it is in one of the threads here.


----------



## ceeaton

ibglowin said:


> They will last long enough for you and @ceeaton to drink them.



Hey, I resemble that comment!


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> For the blend the Lanza Zin should help out a bit, my pre MLF numbers were a pH of 3.54 and TA of 7.8 g/L (or .78 g/ml). Guess I gotta test it again at some point. I swear I did but we must have been all out of writing utensils at the time, because I don't see it in my notes, maybe it is in one of the threads here.



Marrying the two will help.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Marrying the two will help.



A match made in heaven! Just so you know, no dowry included with my sweet miss Zinny. She's just so young, I'm having separation anxiety  just thinking about it.


----------



## jgmann67

You're not losing a daughter, you're gaining a blend.


----------



## ibglowin

Actual picture of @ceeaton 's Zinfandel carboy. Don't think this will help much with the pH TA adjustment.......


----------



## geek

I checked my PS from 2015 last night, its pH is ~3.76 (it was in the low 3.90 before I blended a bit of an old Merlot/Cab blend and it came down to 3.8.

Will check TA tonight and bottle as it's been in carboy and barrel for almost 2 years now. 
Last time I tasted it....really good, so it may be a winner now..


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## jgmann67

So, I was in the wine room last night and remembered that Craig left me a bag of Potassium Bicarbonate. But I'm not sure I can use it here, though. While my TA is low, I think my overall pH is too high to use it. I may be misreading it (again, lawyer, not a chemist). If I can use it, the instructions also suggest a cold stabilization is necessary. In the dead of summer, best place for that is my garage fridge. How long would it sit out there?


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## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> So, I was in the wine room last night and remembered that Craig left me a bag of Potassium Bicarbonate. But I'm not sure I can use it here, though. While my TA is low, I think my overall pH is too high to use it. I may be misreading it (again, lawyer, not a chemist). If I can use it, the instructions also suggest a cold stabilization is necessary. In the dead of summer, best place for that is my garage fridge. How long would it sit out there?



K Bicarb removes acid from your wine. If you have a high pH and a low TA, that means you need to add tartaric acid, not remove it with K Bicarb. You should be thinking about bench trials, adding tartaric in little increments to see where the taste really peaks, then move whole batch to that point.


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## Boatboy24

ibglowin said:


> Actual picture of @ceeaton 's Zinfandel carboy. Don't think this will help much with the pH TA adjustment.......



You can see his clear 'straw' in there...


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## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> K Bicarb removes acid from your wine. If you have a high pH and a low TA, that means you need to add tartaric acid, not remove it with K Bicarb. You should be thinking about bench trials, adding tartaric in little increments to see where the taste really peaks, then move whole batch to that point.



Okay. Let's suppose my current 3.95 pH is where I am in the next test, so I should have about 2.5 ounces on hand if I decide that dropping it all the way down to 3.65 is best. 

The directions suggest dropping 3.8g per gallon to lower the pH by 0.1. Let's say my bench trial size is a 375ml bottle, which is about a tenth of a gallon. So, I'd drop .38g, and mix well. How long do I wait to taste? And, should I drop the bottle in the fridge in the interim? 

(can you tell I'm a noob at this chemistry stuff)


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## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> Okay. Let's suppose my current 3.95 pH is where I am in the next test, so I should have about 2.5 ounces on hand if I decide that dropping it all the way down to 3.65 is best.
> 
> The directions suggest dropping 3.8g per gallon to lower the pH by 0.1. Let's say my bench trial size is a 375ml bottle, which is about a tenth of a gallon. So, I'd drop .38g, and mix well. How long do I wait to taste? And, should I drop the bottle in the fridge in the interim?
> 
> (can you tell I'm a noob at this chemistry stuff)



There's a bunch of ways to do it, consider this, the easiest thing to predict, is the TA outcome from acid addition. Your TA is 5.5 grams / liter. Adding 1 gram per liter should increase your TA from 5.5 to 6.5, easy enough. Never perfect, but usually close. The pH is less predictable, as all wines have different pH buffering capacity. 

Monkey around with 250 ml (1/4 liters) and add .5 g/L to it (1/8 grams). Mix it, taste it, check the pH & TA, make good notes. Add another .5 g/L (1/8 grams), mix, taste, check. Continue until you get the taste you want, then adjust the batch slowly to the target, even over a few days. 

Manage your sulfite based upon your pH, and don't stress over it if it doesn't end up at 3.6, there are some top rated commercial wines with pH's in the 3.8's and higher, they are manageable and age well.


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## ceeaton

Also, do 1/2 of the adjustment you think you want to do. That way you can see what the buffering capacity of the wine is, plus it always seems that 1/2 the adjustment works out pretty good. Easier to add more than try to "unadjust" for sure.


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## ceeaton

ibglowin said:


> Actual picture of @ceeaton 's Zinfandel carboy. Don't think this will help much with the pH TA adjustment.......



It's missing the Xoakers and I didn't add any bubble gum to my batch, this time. Plus that straw is a little small, too much work to get a good mouth full of wine.

Been there, done that with a Pinot Grigio in 2016.


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## geek

Checked pH last night of my PS and it was 3.76, decided to leave alone and don't bother with checking the TA because the wine tastes very good.
Decided to bottle it.....black ink all the way with PS


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## jgmann67

geek said:


> Checked pH last night of my PS and it was 3.76, decided to leave alone and don't bother with checking the TA because the wine tastes very good.
> Decided to bottle it.....black ink all the way with PS



Good to know. I'm planning to bottle the straight PS this fall once I get the pH taken care of.


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## jgmann67

Fascinating. So I added .5g/L... brighter. Another .5g/L and I liked it more... checked the pH. We're at 3.6. Didn't expect that.

I dosed it with Kmeta (it was due) and am going to leave it alone.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Fascinating. So I added .5g/L... brighter. Another .5g/L and I liked it more... checked the pH. We're at 3.6. Didn't expect that.
> 
> I dosed it with Kmeta (it was due) and am going to leave it alone.



Let it sit and check the pH in a few days or a week. It will change over time, take my word for it...

There are neat compounds in your wine that will buffer the pH change and probably make it rise again over time. I see that happen all the time in my beer making and in my fish tank water management.

I'll explain further what I know if I come over tomorrow.


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## jgmann67

Got done puttering in the garage and went to the basement to do a 50/50 blend of Lanza Zin and Lanza PS. 

If the test flight is any indicator, this will be an excellent wine. 

So now I'm the bailor of 6 gallons of primo wine. It can sit a while as the two wines introduce themselves. 

Drinking some of the scraps right now and am pretty pleased with myself. 

I think we'll let the 3 gal of Petite Sirah sit a while too. Not convinced I have the pH under control quite yet.


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## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Got done puttering in the garage and went to the basement to do a 50/50 blend of Lanza Zin and Lanza PS.
> 
> If the test flight is any indicator, this will be an excellent wine.
> 
> So now I'm the bailor of 6 gallons of primo wine. It can sit a while as the two wines introduce themselves.
> 
> Drinking some of the scraps right now and am pretty pleased with myself.
> 
> I think we'll let the 3 gal of Petite Sirah sit a while too. Not convinced I have the pH under control quite yet.



That didn't take long...I don't even have the moussaka out of the oven yet!


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## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> That didn't take long...I don't even have the moussaka out of the oven yet!





We'll get hopping, bubba!


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## jgmann67

Testing the pH of the PS this Sunday. If it's higher than 3.8 on the Milwaukee, I'm going to give it another .5g/l dose until we're at 3.7-ish, or it just tastes too good to monkey with any further. Then, let it sit another week. 

I ran into a problem doing a taste test with 250 ml... no way to accurately measure 1/8g.


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## jgmann67

The pH is nice 3.6/3.7 ish on the old Milwaukee. 

The tester doesn't hold its calibration very well at all. Had to recalibrate before testing. I'll need to get more calibration fluid. 

But it doesn't look like I'm going to add any more tartaric acid.


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> The pH is nice 3.6/3.7 ish on the old Milwaukee.
> 
> The tester doesn't hold its calibration very well at all. Had to recalibrate before testing. I'll need to get more calibration fluid.
> 
> But it doesn't look like I'm going to add any more tartaric acid.



In that range, if it tastes good, you're darn near perfect.


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## jgmann67

I'll need to taste it again. It should be fine. But, I had just brushed my teeth before tasting today.


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## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> I'll need to taste it again. It should be fine. But, I had just brushed my teeth before tasting today.



No comment...


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## jgmann67

Sampled another ounce or so. This wine is ready for the bottle, I think. 

Going to the LHBS today to grab some Kmeta and look at some brand new bottles to put this in. Will bottle my second batch of Luna Bianca too (it's perfect). With the rain coming through, it's a good day to work in the basement.


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## ibglowin

Should only need like 4 empty bottles since there is what like only a gallon left? 



jgmann67 said:


> Sampled another ounce or so. This wine is ready for the bottle, I think.
> 
> Going to the LHBS today to grab some Kmeta and look at some brand new bottles to put this in. Will bottle my second batch of Luna Bianca too (it's perfect). With the rain coming through, it's a good day to work in the basement.


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## jgmann67

ibglowin said:


> Should only need like 4 empty bottles since there is what like only a gallon left?





Har har.... bottled 3 gallons of PS into 12 - 750's and 6 - 375's. The scrapes at the bottom of the carboy were good though. They'll nap on the shelf for a year before I touch one of the tasters. 

View attachment 44375


I still have the PS/Zin blend in carboy. Not sure I want to bottle that one just yet. Maybe in the spring.

Checked my notes on the Luna. I think I want it to sit another month.


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## jgmann67

We sampled the ps/zin blend - no fruit, tannic... almost bitter. The bitter faded a bit as the wine got some air. It's going to be few years until it's ready. The pH is around 3.7, and it's got great body and color.


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## jgmann67

I racked the blend yesterday and dosed with Kmeta. I think we'll put this in the bottle next week. I need room in my bottle bins - they're overflowing because I haven't bottled anything in a while. 

For the doubters out there, the ps is untouched. Not sure when I'll try the first taster (I have 6, so maybe at its 2 year anniversary)


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## jgmann67

We're at 2 years (within days anyway). So, I had a sampler. Clean, tannic with blueberry in the background. Still needs some shelf time. 6 more months?


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## Johnd

jgmann67 said:


> We're at 2 years (within days anyway). So, I had a sampler. Clean, tannic with blueberry in the background. Still needs some shelf time. 6 more months?



I did the same grapes the same year, bottled mine about 3-4 months ago, my tasting thoughts were the same as yours, but I'm thinking more like another 1.5 - 2 years based on the tannic nature, but will continue to drink a bottle every few months to see how it's coming along.............


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## jgmann67

Johnd said:


> I did the same grapes the same year, bottled mine about 3-4 months ago, my tasting thoughts were the same as yours, but I'm thinking more like another 1.5 - 2 years based on the tannic nature, but will continue to drink a bottle every few months to see how it's coming along.............



I'm being overly optimistic. You're probably right - another 2 years till it starts to hit its stride. The next tester will be in 6 months, though.


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## jgmann67

With my wife and daughter in NYC for the wknd, me and a buddy went to the range for a little Armalite therapy. Afterwards, we had lunch - a charcuterie plate and wine sampling. I pulled up one of the zin/PS blends. It was improving, but still drank like an old German Christmas song.


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