# Carboy deposits



## termini (Jun 16, 2008)

I picked up a 5 gallon carboy this weekend at a steal! 3.00!<?amespace prefix = o ns = "urnchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
Just what I needed because I only have 2 6.5 gallon carboys and I have two batches at 4.5 gallons that I will need advice on in another post.
Anyways, this bargain carboy had some oven cleaner or 409 in it, I flushed it out, cleaned it with PBW cleaner, and noticed that it has a lot of that haze in it—much like what glass looks like after many cycles through the dishwasher.
I remember seeing a posted discussion on this, but can’t find it.
If I let some water/ vinegar mixture sit in it for a while, do you think that may take some of that haze off? And even if it doesn’t after all the cleaning, brushing and k-meta do ya think that it is good enough to use –even though it won’t be as clear as I hoped—just a little worried what might have been in there in the first place( or later in it’s life) to cause that.


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## Dean (Jun 16, 2008)

I believe that extremely harsh cleaners like oven cleaner when left for greater than 24 hours will etch the glass. To my knowledge, once etched, there is nothing to get rid of that. I've heard that cleaning with vodka and brass or copper shot will help remove some hazes if it is not glass etching.


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## termini (Jun 16, 2008)

Cool. If that is truly the case, then I won't worry about it as I'm sure any bacteria hiding in the roughness of the etching would be taken care of when it is sanitized with K-Meta.Its just an asthetic, visual thing at this point then. *Edited by: termini *


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## JimCook (Jun 16, 2008)

If it isn't etched as Dean was talking about, one good trick to clean porcelain or glass is to use Coca-Cola. Between the carbonic and phosphoric acids in there, if you leave it sit for a bit, it tends to take care care some residues and is a low-cost alternative. In addition, since the pH is low, it shouldn't cause etching. Think of it as the 'magic scrubbing bubbles' option. 
- Jim


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## smurfe (Jun 17, 2008)

I would just try some Oxy-Clean in it soaked overnight. If that don't clean it to clear, it probably isn't going to come off. I routinely clean my flask I make yeast starters in with burnt on DME in it that a scrub brush won't even scratch. I add a scoop of oxyclean, fill to the top and let it soak overnight. It is crystal clear clean the next day. If your glass is etched though, as noted it will not be clear. 


Also, if it is etched, a simple soak in sanitizer will not automatically mean any scratches are sanitized. You will probably be fine if you have cleaned really well and scrubbed with a carboy brush and then sanitized but you will have to really be diligent with the cleaning of that vessel. I really doubt it is etched though, It is probably a alkali film which you still may not be able to get off. Give it a try and remember to rinse really, really, really, really well.


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## joeswine (Jun 17, 2008)

i would use be brite and if that doesn't do it in a 1/2 hour or overnight then i wouldn't use them//thats my take on it//


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## termini (Jun 17, 2008)

I will try those two methods, but if it doesn't work, I don't think it is worth the gamble to put what I worked so hard at and invested in a compramised container. That is alot of wine to put down the drain with my wife looking at me with" the look"---you guys know what I'm talking about!


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## joeswine (Jun 18, 2008)

THAT LOOK COULD LAST A LIFE TIME AND ALSO THAT I TOLD YOU SO,IF IT DOESN"T LOOK CLEAN&lt;IT PROBLY ISN'T


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## Scott (Jun 18, 2008)

joeswine you crack me up with some of the icons. 


Yes the look like when my wife will see the credit card bill from all the items I have been ordering to make this "simple wine recipe".


Good luck with the clearing of the carboy. 


Remember it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to get permission.


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## joeswine (Jun 18, 2008)

but they neve forget even after words,like 30 years!


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## PolishWineP (Jun 18, 2008)

You could use the carboy to make a lovely terrarium (sp) for your wife!





And why do you show your credit card bill to your wife? I never look at Bert's bills. I don't want to know!


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## termini (Jun 18, 2008)

Wise words to ponder.............


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## joeswine (Jun 18, 2008)

OH YA! try to keep a secrete from the look ,its only a question of time before it melts you down and then they really never forget!







http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&amp;ref=12


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## Scott (Jun 19, 2008)

Funny where the conversations go, from cleaning a carboy to spouses and finances.


I don't have the option of showing her the bill, she does all of the books. Go ahead and say it.


Nothing else use the carboy to keep spare change in and empty it every year or two and buy her something nice.


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## joeswine (Jun 19, 2008)

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http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN

NOW YOU GOT IThttp://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZN


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## PolishWineP (Jun 19, 2008)

Scott said:


> Funny where the conversations go, from cleaning a carboy to spouses and finances.
> 
> 
> I don't have the option of showing her the bill, she does all of the books. Go ahead and say it.


I'd LOVE to have someone to take care of bill payment for me! I'm jealous! I'd even provide the money!


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## uavwmn (Jun 19, 2008)

Scott, I found a 5 gal tinted blue carboy at a thrift store for $3!! It has the white type stain in the glass. I cleaned it with cleaner and the sanitizer with very hot water. I have used it a couple of times without any problem at all.
It was once a water dispenser for a company as it has the company name and logo etched in the glass.


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## Scott (Jul 10, 2008)

Termini,


Did you get the carboys intousableshape?


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## termini (Jul 10, 2008)

Sorry that I have not been in the forum lately, many floatplanes to get in the air and out to customers. 
I got the carboy into shape, more or less. I cleaned it with Vinnegar, PBW and then with Oxyclean, followed with One step and finally with K-meta.
Am trying it out with my Dandelion wine. I am hoping to get some pictures up of my carboy set up. I have 2 of Dandelion, 1 of WE Liefraumilch, 1 of WE Island Mist Black Rasberry, and 1 of WE Island Mist Kiwi pear. 






I will repeat a quote I heard in Amway once: " if you beat your head against the wall long enough, your ears will pop out, and you can hear what the experts are saying!" Because I now know the wisdom of the forum quote" an empty carboy is nobody's playground"so I am picking up 2 more 6.5's and 3 6's. The wisdom I learned is that :I can't enjoy these wines in the months to come if I don't get them in the fermenters NOW! Duh.


-I had a carboy fracture on me when I dropped my Mity Vac tool on it while vacuum degassing the Kiwi Pear--funny how things happen in slow motion.......every thing held together while I wondered at the fracture staring back at me--that is until I released the vacuum!!!!! it broke on top and I only lost about a quart or two.I went off the page and funny that me wifey never heard a word of my tyrade, even though see was directly above me taking a shower, because when she came downstairs, she wanted to know why I had all her bath towels all over the floor, and why they all smelled like yeast.---I grunted.







BY THE WAY I SAW A DISCUSSION ON ANOTHER SITE FORUM ABOUT THE NORTH AMERICAN MANUFACTURER OF CARBOYS CLOSING.THE PRICES OF 6 AND 6.5'S HAVE GONE UP FROM 22.00 TO 38.00 WITH NO 6.5'S AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME.( at two of the three suppliers in my area- St. Paul)If this is true, I was wondering if this notice has gone out to the various forums about this? The discussion said that an Italian firm may be coming on line soon...
Please don't crucify me on this( GEORGE), but a local supplier still has the 6 gallons at21.50 and 6.5's at 23.50 : MIDWEST SUPPLY*Edited by: termini *


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## joeswine (Jul 11, 2008)

yes its true the Mexicans are no longer making them only the Italians,so their fore supply and demand,go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## grapeman (Jul 12, 2008)

[George announded this in his last newsletter .... 
http://www.finevinewines.com/July_2008.htm#LETTER.BLOCK23


I think they had to close because of a labor shortage. Maybe they could reopen in the US Southwest where the labor supply now is.....







Seriously, we will all just need to adjust our practices to compensate for the loss of a supplier. I was considering buying another 40 6 gallon carboys to increase production from the grape harvest this fall. Now I think I will consider going to a few larger vessels or a mixture of my present glass and some Better Bottles.


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## Wade E (Jul 12, 2008)

For all you have to do Rich I think you should go to a few larger vessels, it would most likely save you money even at the old prics and you wouldnt have to clean as many items either or keep track of what is what in all those.


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## joeswine (Jul 12, 2008)

for the most part i but 6 gal. juices,they come in 6.5 gal buckets,i dislike fermenting in the buckets,i transfer to glass,i think for me the idea is to prepare better on what i need and to extend that need out to the 4 times a year i can buy,as appose to buying more glass it does get inventory expensive,planning is the way /////







http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&amp;ref=12


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## whino-wino (Jul 14, 2008)

termini said:


> If I let some water/ vinegar mixture sit in it for a while, do you think that may take some of that haze off?




Just my opinion, buteven if you've got a toughcleaning job to do, I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever.......let vinegar come into contact with any of my winemaking equipment. Unless, of course, you plan to make vinegar



.......then it probably isn't such a big deal.


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## joeswine (Jul 15, 2008)

I,LL SECOND THAT MOTION







http://www.sweetim.com/s.asp?im=gen&amp;ref=12


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## termini (Jul 16, 2008)

I didn't realize.... is it for a chemical reason? I was approching it from the stand point of when they use it to clean out coffe makers.
is it because it will etch into the glass, or attach to the deposits that don't come off and later taint whatever goes in next? Because I then did rinse it with hot water, used Oxy clean, rinsed, used One step, and then stored with K-Meta.
Or is it something that you just don't take a chance with, and play it safe?


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## Wade E (Jul 17, 2008)

It is the fact that wine is wine until it is vinegar! I dont know how much it would take and it sounds like you cleaned the ever living sh&amp;* out of it afterwards but that little bacteria that turns wine into vinegar is easy to miss cause it is basically invisible and gets caught in scratches in glass and plastic and is very hard to completely sanitize a crack and if introduced into your wine. guess what you will be making!


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## joeswine (Jul 17, 2008)

i agree with that, theres enough pit falls without adding anymore roadbloacks ,but its your wine,if you feel ok with it than go for it.


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## termini (Jul 17, 2008)

I think that I will go with you guys! After all that work, when I look at it there with the K-Meta in it, it still has that Haze on the glass. 
I know that thesecarboys are still going up in price, but I agree that it is not worth the gamble. There are other things that I can save money on.....say dumpster diving for bottles, for example!!


Say, if any of you are traveling through Minnesota in the next couple of months, I would be more than willing to buy some of the 6 and 6.5 carboys from a supply house on the western side of The Cities They still had them at the old price on 7/11/08 when I bought 5 of them( 19.50and22.00 or close to that ) and just hang onto them until we could connect. That way, no shipping.Let me know on private mess if you want. More than happy to oblige for all the help I've gotten!*Edited by: termini *


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## whino-wino (Jul 17, 2008)

I've never made vinegar so I don't know a ton about the process, but I have read a little on the subject and know enough that it can be a bane to winemakers. Most vinegar is actually made from wine, and most of the time on purpose. You add what's called "mother of vinegar" and your wine will be transformed into vinegar in a rather short period of time. What's scary to winemakers is thatvinegar doesn't even have to come into direct contact with your wine to do it's thing. That's because it can actually travel through the air to get to your wine. The strong smell from vinegar is actually vapor thatis going into the air and in that vapor is contained small amounts of "mother of vinegar". As a rule I don't even allow vinegar to be used in the same room as any of my winemaking stuff. I'm sure that 99% of the time I'm just being paranoid and nothing would happen, but even 1% is way too high of a risk for me. If I had a 1% chance of winning the Powerball lottery I'd blow my whole paycheck on lottery tickets every week.*Edited by: whino-wino *


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## PeterZ (Jul 18, 2008)

Wine is converted to vinegar in much the same way as grape juice is converted to wine. A bacterium, _Acetobacter sp._ converts alcohol to acetic acid. Fruit flies can transmit this bacteria.


If you want to use an acid to clean carboys your best choice is muriatic acid (27% HCl), which you can get in the drug store or at a pool supply house. About 1 oz per gallon would do it.


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## univity (Jul 19, 2008)

Is there a problem with cleaning a carboy with bleach water?
Given it is rinsed and rinsed after - then sanitized with One Step 


Bleach water should get rid of deposits


I usually just use dishsoap and water - then rinse with oxyclean water - then One Step - but I wonder if bleach would be better than the oxyclean for sanitation/deposit removalpurposes *Edited by: univity *


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## smurfe (Jul 19, 2008)

univity said:


> Is there a problem with cleaning a carboy with bleach water?
> Given it is rinsed and rinsed after - then sanitized with One Step
> 
> 
> ...




You are doing a few extra steps there that are repetitive. Oxy Clean and One Step are both oxygen based cleaners and I am still not convinced they are not basically the same product. Also, they are not sanitizers, they are cleaners. I will admit that I have used them for the sanitation phase though before I learned the difference and didn't have a problem. Bleach is a sanitizer and not a cleaner. Dish soap ought to be avoided unless it is un-scented. 


If Oxy Clean or One Step doesn't get off what ever stain you got, it isn't coming off IMHO. Example: I have a commercial Bunn coffee pot here like the ones you see in a restaurant or convenience store. I have a rule that no dish soap is to be used on thecarafe due to the after taste the lemon fresh Joy will leave. The carafe is one of the plastic ones with the stainless looking base. The wife bought a new glass carafe butI wanted to save the other one in case we broke the glass one. I dumped a scoop of Sun (Dollar Store brand of Oxy Cleaner) in the carafe and filled it with warm water. I then went to work. The wife called me an hour later and was amazed. The stained carafe was spotless and looked brand new with no burnt coffee odor. I have yet to see anything it couldn't get clean.


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## Waldo (Jul 20, 2008)

I'm with you smurfe..I think On Step, Oxy clean and B-Brite would be awfully hard to tell apart if you didn't know beforehand which was which. I have switched to Oxy Clean exclusively myself and it has removed some pretty grungy looking stuff from some bottle given to me.


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## univity (Jul 20, 2008)

They do seem pretty much the same - but I got my products mixed up - i use one step on bottles - Easy Clean is what I use to sanitize - and that seems like oxy clean too  


so you are saying nix the dish soap? what about bleach? 


you all are such an awesome source of knowledge!*Edited by: univity *


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## Wade E (Jul 20, 2008)

I would definitely get rid of the dish soap. Bleach is fine as long as you do a good job of rinsing afterwards which kind of defeats the purpose unless you are just using it to clean. If using it to sanitize then I would switch to something that is no-rinse like Star-San, Iodophor, or Na-Meta.


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## smurfe (Jul 20, 2008)

univity said:


> They do seem pretty much the same - but I got my products mixed up - i use one step on bottles - Easy Clean is what I use to sanitize - and that seems like oxy clean too
> 
> 
> so you are saying nix the dish soap? what about bleach?
> ...




OK, first off, if you are using Easy clean and One Step you are just repeating the process. They are basically the same stuff. Both are cleaners not sanitizers although it is reported they will clean to sanitizing levels but aren't considered sanitizers due to the governmental labeling requirement qualification process. They are oxygen based cleaners like Oxy-Clean. 


The use of dish soap is controversial as well. I wouldn't have an issue using a non-scented soap but I will not allow regular soaps on some items in my house such as my coffee pot and coffee cups. Our old house keeper used to soak the coffee pot with dish soap in it to clean the pot. No matter how well it was rinsed I could taste lemon fresh Joy. Same for my to go coffee cups I took in the vehicle to work with me. 


In regards to bleach you can use it but remember, bleach does not clean, it sanitizes. If you do use it you will need to rinse very, very, very well which in reality defeats the entire purpose of sanitizing. You need to make sure the bleach is un-scented as well. I have used it in a pinch before when I was out of other sanitizers and many, particularly in the beer making world use it all the time but then again you read stories on forums of infected batches and have to question their sanitation practices and products. 


So to boil it all down. Use your Easy Clean or One Step to clean with. You can use Oxy Clean when it is gone or keep using the other stuff if you choose.Use some Sulfite's or Star San or Idophor to sanitize with. You might want to ditch the dish soap and bleach but if you do use bleach, remember, it sanitizes but is not a cleaner. Cleaning and sanitizing are two separate, distinct steps.


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## univity (Jul 20, 2008)

regarding dish soap I have used the Dawn antibacterial - not scented with anything


I always though the Easy Clean was a sanitizer (it says so on the bucket) - but when you read info about it online it technically isnt - thx for letting me know


Guess I should get another squirt bottle labeled up for some potassium metabisulphite solution to add to my cleaning arsenal


I have also considered using my dishwasher for bottles as it has a sanitizer cycle (to be used for baby bottles, nipples, etc) but I have been concerned with residue from the detergent - as well as Jet Dry stuff that I think squirts out during rinse cycle - I guess I could let that dispenser empty and not refill it - but its almost easier just to rinse them with a solution


I will nix the dish soap - thx - I only use bleach when there is a stain or something on the bottle - like a couple dried drops of wine in the bottom - or stains in primary fermenter


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## PeterZ (Jul 22, 2008)

I use dishwasher soap to aid in removing labels, and also run bottles through the dishwasher. Never had any noticable residue in the bottles. When it is time to bottle I sanitize with K-meta and bottle.


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## fiat84 (Sep 29, 2008)

Have used the regular "pink" oxygen based wine cleaner in an overnight soak for a stainless steel pan with black burned on eggs stains. The next day the pan was totally spotless, shiny stainless steel like new without any scratches. Previously had tried boiling with baking soda and coke with not luck.

Have learned any organic material seems to dissolve given enough time to soak with the pink cleaner. Used this technique to clean some wine making equipment that was given to me and never cleaned after its last few uses. Much easier than having to scrub each item, used two pink cleaner overnight soakings and now the equipment looks almost brand new again. It is an amazing product so much so we no longer use dish soap first to clean the wine making equipment.


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## coriasco (Dec 8, 2008)

Be very careful in buying used carboys, you do not know what was put into them. I personally would not buy or use a carboy that I did not know what was in it with it's prior owners.


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