# KNOW WHAT YOU ARE USING?



## Waldo (Jan 5, 2007)

One of the greatest dangers facing home winemaking and ensuring failure of successfully making good wines is proper cleaning and sanitizing. We are fortunate here on the forum in having the expertise of many good wine makers and that coupled with Georges expertise, honesty and helpfulness can ensure success every time. IF WE WILL PAY ATTENTION and if in doubt...ASK as I recently did. Long story shortened, there are chemicals being sold out there, purported to be sanitizers when in fact they are not. I found an auction on e-bay that was actually selling B-Brite and C-Brite as sanitizers. I googled both and amazingly I found several Web sites that was selling C-Brite as a sanitizer. A couple of which I will share here. 



http://www.homebrewingsupplies.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&amp;products_id=717


http://www.wineartindy.com/cbritecleaner.html


http://www.crosby-baker.com/products.php?cat=108


A couple of e-mails later with George and his referral to me of an article he did in his newsletter in AprilI decided it was worth posting here on the forum, especially for newbies as a word of caution about ensuring that you are cleaning and sanitizing your equipment properly. If you have not read Georges April article I would strongly recommend you do so. Just click on the "April" link above. *Edited by: Waldo *


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## smurfe (Jan 5, 2007)

Good post Waldo. I will add though that some of these products more than likely are indeed sanitizers but the manufactures did not want to spend the thousands of dollars to get their product classified as a sanitizer. We had a thread about this a while back. 


If you remember, I used to use Easy Clean as a sanitizer. The package said it was a sanitizer. I used this product because that was what was included in my starter pack from George. It said sanitizer right on the bottle. When the sample was gone I bought a big bottle of it. Probably the first 10 kits I made I used this product for sanitation and have had no issues other than the discoloration it does to my hoses.


Now, I am not advocating that this is indeed a sanitizer and after that discussion I quit using it as a sanitizer and switched to Sodium Metabisulfate which is so much cheaper. I am just saying that per the manufacturers, some of these products are indeed sanitizing products. I still have to recommend using products that have been verified as indeed sanitizers.I now use the Easy Clean as a cleaner and the Na Meta to sanitize.


I wouldn't go dumping my wine if I realized that I used one of these other products as a sanitizer until it is indeed found bad. You will know if the wine goes bad. I have only posted this in case there are newer winemaker members here that might of used one of these products to sanitize with and are now stressing out thinking they will have a contaminated product. Have patients and let time decide. 


Smurfe


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## smurfe (Jan 5, 2007)

Another thing I forgot to add. Isn't C-Brite chlorine based? How much chlorine is in it? Is there enough to indeed make it a sanitizer? I know it don't take much. For example, at work we have to sanitize all of the drinking cups the kids use. We can not wash them in a dishwasher unless it is a commercial dishwasher. Just think, you home dishwasher will not sanitize (yuk). 


Anyway, we have 2 large commercial sinks in our kitchen area. I don't know their capacity but are around the size of the ones BillB posted here a while back. We add one cupful of bleach to an almost full sink to reach a concentration level that will sanitize as determined by testing strips. I also add this because some do use bleach to sanitize and it don't take much at all. Anyway, I wonder if C-Brite has enough chlorine to truly sanitize or not? Na Meta is still cheaper though and we know it works fine.


Smurfe


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## Dean (Jan 5, 2007)

C-Brite is a sanitizer, however, it requires a 20 minute contact to be effective. The nice thing about C-Brite is that it is also a mild detergent. But I sure in heck would not call it "no-rinse"!

Get it near your corks for some nice TCA (Cork taint), make you wines smell like the local public pool, etc. I do use it to clean though. I've used it to sanitize beer making stuff as well. The trick is to know to let it sit IN the solution for 20 minutes.


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## geocorn (Jan 5, 2007)

C-Brite has changed its label. It used to read "Cleanser/Sanitizer". Now it reads "Cleanser". You make the call.


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## PeterZ (Jan 5, 2007)

OK, I hate to do it, but I must explode some brains again.

"Sanitizer" is a legal term regulated by the the government. There are several classes if sanitizer, but the one we are interested in is "hard surface sanitizer." In order to be labeled (under USEPA law) as a hard surface sanitizer, a product must, at label rates, kill 99.999% (5 log reduction) of all bacteria on a surface in 60 seconds. Strong oxidizers, iodine (betadiene), and some quaternary ammonium compounds fall in this class. Let's look at each.

Oxidizers. B-brite and C-brite are in this class. I know C-brite is a chlorine donor, because I have some and can look at the label for its active ingredient. The recommended strength does not rise to sanitizer levels, but is is still good at killing bacteria. It is popular as a chlorine donor in swimming pools. It is easily rinsed off of hard surfaces.

Iodine compounds. This is what they paint all over your skin before surgery. Works great, and is easily rinsed out. Tastes terrible. Always rinse with potable water before contact with your wine.

Quats. This is what hospitals use to swab down operating rooms. Also used in swimming pools. Big problem for us - hard to rinse (kind of soapy) with an off taste. You can identify a quat by looking at the active ingredient. It will end in "ammonium chloride" and be a big long chemical name. 

My favorite pool product - the most expensive and best pool algecide on the market is Poly[oxy-ethylene-di-methyl-iminio-ethylene-dimethyi-iminio-ethylene] dichloride. I know, it doesn't end in ammonium chloride, but the sanitizers do.

Sulfites are not sanitizers in the legal sense of the word. They do not kill anything. So why do we winemakers call them sanitizers? Because virtually all of the organisms that can hurt our wine require oxygen to grow, and sulfites strip the oxygen from the environment. Sulfites are reducing agents and act as follows (I will use K-meta as the example here, but just subistute Na for K for sodium metabisulfite):

K2S2O5 is K-meta crystals. When dissolved in water it becomes:

K2S2O5 + H2O --&gt; 2(KHSO3) potassium bisulfite; which dissociates into:

K+ + H+ + SO3-2

This compound has about the same acidity as wine, so it fits right in. Now, here's the kicker:

2 x SO3-2 + O2 --&gt; 2 x SO4-

What the sulfite has done is strip the dissolved oxygen out of the water, rendering the bad organisms unable to act. Without oxygen dissolved in the wine Acetobacter can do nothing. There could be millions of cells, but they would be inactive.

The inverse is yeast. Over-sulfiting a must before pitching the yeast will not kill the yeast, it will just prevent it from reproducing. If you want to prove this just take 750 ml of must, over-sulfite it, bottle it, put in some yeast, put a fermentation lock on it, and leave it for 5 years. Eventually it will ferment to dryness.

I'll have more later, but right now I want another glass of wine - and my fingers are fumbling.


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## Wade E (Jan 5, 2007)

I'm still trying to digest this!



I think I better go back to school!


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## geocorn (Jan 5, 2007)

Well that clears that up!


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## sangwitch (Jan 5, 2007)

That's why you don't stick your nose into a container of k-meta solution and take a whiff to see if it's still active! 


I read somewhere else as well that the reason C-Brite removed the word "sanitizer" was because of the USEPA law and not because it didn't kill beasties. Hmmm... How about "CYA" and use both? 


Waldo - thanks for putting this out there. Bringing this up every once in a while is a great service to the community I say. And PeterZ - thanks for the lesson!


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## PolishWineP (Jan 5, 2007)

Wow! I read all of that stuff Peter posted and my brains are still in tact! Very good!



Thanks for the post.


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## Waldo (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeahhhhhhhh!!! Now I understand.


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## grapeman (Jan 6, 2007)

So if I read this clearly, we aren't strictly sanitizing the bottles when we rinse them with K-Meta. We are only applying a quick surface that restricts the microbial growth until the wine is put in the bottle with the sulphites in it to restrict their growth further?


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## Francie (Jan 6, 2007)

Okay, what about One Step? I use that to clean AND sanitize. This was recommended by my local shop guy. 


Francie


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## smurfe (Jan 6, 2007)

Francie said:


> Okay, what about One Step? I use that to clean AND sanitize. This was recommended by my local shop guy.
> 
> 
> Francie




Francie. I have anduse both Easy Clean and One Step. Both jars I have say on th label that theyare cleaners and sanitizers but it appears they have take the term Sanitizer off of them recently. I really can't tell the difference between the two products either and actually wonder if they aren't the same thing packaged by different vendors. 


It is your call though. Like I said, I used these products to clean and sanitize for quite a while before we had a discussion here before about them. The only real reason I switched to Sulfite's was the cost difference. I still use the other products for cleaning and in my opinion and this is my opinion only, I have no fears that the products did indeed do a good job cleaning and sanitizing but remember, this is only my opinion and my wine to chance spoiling, not yours.


Smurfe


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## Francie (Jan 6, 2007)

Hey Smurfe,


Thank you for the quick response and I definately want to take in into consideration!! It does get very costly!!!


Francie


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## PeterZ (Jan 6, 2007)

Sorry about that, my friends. I spent 20+ years in industrial water treatment chemistry.

sang - that's exactly what I do. I rince everything with a solution of C-Brite, followed by a solution of K-meta. The C-brite, being an oxidizer like oxygen can spoil wine, but the K-meta neutrailzes it. 

The whole "sanitizer" thing is more about law than performance. Any chemical (or anything else) that claims to kill or control any living organism must be registered with the USEPA. This is NOT cheap. The paperwork requirements alone are a nightmare. In addition, the label requirements are very specific. Look at the label on any weed killer or bug killer you happen to have around. All of that information is not there because it is interesting, it's there because the USEPA requires it. Can you see a label like that on C-brite?

Every chemical sold in the US must be listed on one of two inventories - TSCA (Toxic Substances Control Act) or FIFRA (Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act). FIFRA is the one the EPA manages, and covers sanitizers, among other things. TSCA is for all other chemicals. [I never understood why anything that is a "chemical" is considered "toxic" by Washington. NaCl (table salt)? H2O (water)? They are both on the list. DIHYDROGEN OXIDE KILLS AND MAIMS HUNDREDS EVERY YEAR!!! BAN IT!!!]

The real trick is that many chemicals are on both lists. Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) is the perfect example. When sold to sterilize things, it must have all that labelling, and is subject to extensive record keeping and reporting requirments under FIFRA. When sold to brighten your wash it falls under TSCA and needs no special activity.

Yes, you guessed it sports fans, NaOCl is bleach.

The reason all of our sanitizers are removing "sanitizer" from their labels is to avoid the EPA requirements. Truth be told, the cheapest sanitizer you can get is the cheapest generic bleach at the grocery store. A couple of tablespoons per quart of water will make a good sanitizer. Then follow it up with a K-meta solution rinse and you are good to go.


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## Wade E (Jan 6, 2007)

Dont say your sorry, we love the info, but we do like to joke about
becuase some of it is over our (or at least mine) head. But if you keep
beating it into my head I'll eventually learn it. @0 years in water
treatment huh, what do you do know or are you still in it?


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## Bill B (Jan 7, 2007)

As mentioned in a post a while back I use a tablet form of saniitizer called
<DIV SuperAdBlocker_DIV_Elements="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMove_Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker__Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker_DIV_FirstLook="0">STERAMINE This is a multi purpose sanitizer(epa reg. no. 1561.11) which I buy at a restaurant supply store. 1 TAB per gal of water for SANITIZING food contact surfaces such as dishes, glasses, utensuls. This is that BlUE liquid you offen see in a bar sink. Each bottle contains 150 tabs. cost about $7.00. This product only require 1 min contact time although they say to air dry, most restaurants and bars dont have the time if busy. I CLEAN with B-brite rince then SANITIZE and rince again. This is very fast and easy. More info at http://www.sanitize.com
<DIV SuperAdBlocker_DIV_Elements="0" SuperAdBlocker_OnMove_Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker__Hooked="0" SuperAdBlocker_DIV_FirstLook="0">Bill


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## Angell Wine (Jan 7, 2007)

DIHYDROGEN OXIDE KILLS AND MAIMS HUNDREDS EVERY YEAR!!! BAN IT!!!]
Too much of this chemical in a controlled setting would make my property taxes go up. *Edited by: Angell Wine *


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## grapeman (Jan 7, 2007)

That's funny Angell!






We have that problem up here with taxes. Any good lot next to the H20 makes the taxes go up a lot. Even a view of it makes them rise. 


Does that mean that any dammed river or lakeshould be considered a controlled substance?


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## PeterZ (Jan 7, 2007)

Wade,

Gave it up back in 2000. Now I'm a computer geek for the Navy.


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## Wade E (Jan 7, 2007)

Cool!


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## Bill (Jan 11, 2007)

Thanks Waldo and George that was a good piece to post
I will take it to heart


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## Bill (Jan 11, 2007)

wade:


That's a lot to swallow all at once


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## oneram (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm a bit confused. Yes I'm a new wine maker and though I was really going good, I thought until I read this. By the way I'm on my 2nd kit. I use the cleaner from Georges Kit for Cleaning. I use the Potassium Meta for sanitizing that also came with the kits. PER THE INSTRUCTION. Am I missing something or we over thinking what to do. Tell me what I'm missing. Is it cost, humm cant be that ? Or perhasp there is much more I just dont know about Wine makingand perhasp I'm really not cleaning or sanitizing.


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## grapeman (Jan 11, 2007)

oneram
If you are being sanitary and sanitizing with K-Meta at the recommended strength, you are doing all that is necessary. It's been done this way for many years and will work for many more. Follow the kit directions and you will be good to go. Don't bother to overthink things at this point. *Edited by: appleman *


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## masta (Jan 11, 2007)

KISS Principle


Visually clean and then sanitize with K-meta or Na-meta


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## PeterZ (Jan 11, 2007)

Sorry for the confusion, oneram. Squeeky clean and rinsed with k-meta is the way to go for wine making. That will not technically or legally "sanitize" the equipment, but that level of sanitization is not necessary for wine, nor is it practical to achieve. The only way to sanitize a must (chemically - gamma rays work great, but I don't have any) will ruin it.

The procedures we use, when done correctly, will drive all harmful-to-wine microorganisms into dormancy. As long as they are dormant, they can't cause any harm.


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## wolfman (Jan 26, 2007)

Wow there is an awful lot of info here. However as a newbie to
winemaking, just beginning my first batch and to the forum, I am
concerned over the physical cleaning and sanitizing process. What
I mean is:



When I sanitize do I allow all equipment to drip dry *completely*?



How long before I use the equipment can I sanitize?



Do I sanitize the tray or whatever else I use to place the equipment on while drying?



So I am also hearing that using common dishwashing solution is not adequate for the cleaning process?



Am I being to anal in this process? I just don't want to lose my first batrch.


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## masta (Jan 26, 2007)

When I sanitize do I allow all equipment to drip dry *completely*?


It is not necessary to let your equipment dry completely since the small amount of K-meta left when it is wet isn't an issue and this is true with bottles also. The main objective isto remove quantities of sanitizing solutions.

How long before I use the equipment can I sanitize?


Not sure the exact time but doing it right before using provides the most protection.

Do I sanitize the tray or whatever else I use to place the equipment on while drying?


This would be best and I personally use clean towels to place my cleaned equipment on after sanitizing. The main goal would be to eliminate all chances of contamination after sanitizing.

So I am also hearing that using common dish washing solution is not adequate for the cleaning process?


It works great to clean but the issue is rinsing it properly to prevent contamination of your batch with residual soap.

Am I being to anal in this process? I just don't want to lose my first batch.

Not at all since it is the cause of many batch failures.


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## OilnH2O (Jan 26, 2007)

Peter, great stuff -- you and Masta help us all!






I'm curious though-- after I clean a carboy and set it aside, sometimes as long as a few weeks until I need it, I leave about a half-gallon of sodium meta solution in it and stopper it. When I need it, I drain that NA meta and rinse with water just before using. 


Any problem with that, other than a little discoloration on the stopper, and not leaving it more than a few weeks?




(I do not re-sanitize if the aroma of the NA-meta knocks me across the room -- but if the NA-meta is only slightly detectable, I'll sanitize with a new batch of NA meta before using.)


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## sangwitch (Jan 26, 2007)

I often do the same thing with keeping some solution in the carboy.







I also keep a little bucket sitting on a shelf with a thermometer sitting in it, which I use to punch down the caps on some 1-gallon batches. After use I rinse off the thermometer in water and throw it back into the sanitizer for the next day. How long does the sanitizer keep it's strength?


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## Waldo (Jan 26, 2007)

As long as it has a strong sulphur odor sang it is still ok. Unless it is full of gunk then I'd go ahead and chunk it.


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## Randy1 (Jan 31, 2007)

Question from a newby: If we sanitize, then rinse with tap water, does that add oxygen back to the surface of the container, so that the bad bacteria are no longer dormant? Just wondering, because one of the posts here mention that they sanitize, then rinse.


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## PeterZ (Jan 31, 2007)

Randy, in theory, yes, but you also have sulfite in the wine, and you will not be adding enough oxygenated water on the surface of the glass to have a noticable effect on the wine.


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## Wade E (Jan 31, 2007)

If your talking about bottles, you do not have to rinse after. Just let
drip dry on a bottle tree if you have one. The miniscule amount left
will not hurt anything! Welcome Randy.


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