# Your (or someone you know)solar energy experiences



## corinth (May 22, 2015)

My wife and I have been considering solar panels ever since our electric bill kept going up($300.00 +) during summer.

What have your experiences ( or those of your friends) been who have it.
1. What are some of your (or friends of yours )the negative experiences you have had to deal with. 
2. What solar companies have you heard or used which are the best. 
3. what are some of the minute details that sales people leave out
I have done enough reading to make me very cautious so I will have an attorney look over the lease , if that is the way we go but there are a lot of personal experiences I never thought of sooooo...

If you would be so kind, would you share some of your expertise after the fact I really would appreciate your detailed feedback?

Sincerely,
Corinth


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## jamesjr (May 23, 2015)

Dont kno to much but nobody else said anything but I guy that usto work for me sweared he was gonna retire and get rich of solar panels and sell electricity back to the power company. He no longer works for me so........?


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## corinth (May 23, 2015)

*solar panels on the roof*

I have read my fair amount but there is a fair amount that twists and turns that ex explains the lawyer.

I hope I get some feed back
Corinth


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## ibglowin (May 23, 2015)

I don't know much but I live in a state with 325 days on average of Sunshine. This is also one of the poorest states in the US or we would have tens of thousands of panels. With the cost continuing to drop each year and now many companies starting to advertise locally with lease to own plans and enticing offers of you pay nothing basically for electricity, the $$$ generated by your solar panel will pay for itself things are starting to change at the local level and not for the better. The power companies all across america have realized that as more and more panels come online unless they change things up and fast they will end up going out of business. Therefore they are all now planing on imposing a monthly fee for all customers hooking up into the grid. This monthly fee is anywhere from $15 to $75 a MONTH. This "user" fee would supposedly be to pay for the "upkeep" of the grid and its infrastructure as more and more people are generating electricity there will be less and less people paying to upkeep the grid.

This would make the payback time jump up tremendously depending on the monthly user fees. In short you need to research what your local power company is proposing along these user fee lines so you can more accurately try and calculate a time to payback your investment.


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## heatherd (May 24, 2015)

Sustainable architecture and interior design is what I do at my full-time job, so I am often recommending solar PV and solar hot water to clients. The things to consider:
-Age of your roof - if you have an older roof, the solar folks won't install on it and then you're looking at the cost of a roof + the cost of solar
-Orientation and amount of sun you'll get
-City incentives, county incentives, state incentives, federal incentives: http://www.dsireusa.org/ 
-Utility company incentives
-Solar company incentives
-Amount of energy you can generate with PV based on area of panels likely
-Amount of water you can heat with solar
-Lifespan of panels - this is something that the vendors never mention, but the panels have a lifespan and will have to eventually be replaced, so when you calculate the payback it should be over the life of the panels, not forever
-Renting or leasing versus owning
-You'll want to consider whether you'll be grid-tied or not
-Storage capacity in terms of a battery
-How it will be supported, wind loads, seismic, etc.

Lots of factors to consider! It's worth getting 2-3 quotes that consider all of the above.

I called a couple of companies for quotes, but we have an old roof and a big several-hundred-year-old tree. The solar folks wanted a new roof and me to cut down the tree, so I said no thank you....

Heather


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## ibglowin (May 24, 2015)

Also Tesla just jumped into the fray with their $7000 Powewall Home Battery

This could be a game changer for the home owner keeping you off the grid if you have enough sun and panels.


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## Hokapsig (May 24, 2015)

the company that I work for is supplying the solar inverters to the largest solar field in the US/Mexico. The new inverters that we make bring the cost of producing solar energy down to 3 to 6 cents per kilowatt hour. So far we are only producing for business, but down the road we could be looking to build for average citizen.


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## corinth (May 28, 2015)

*solar energy*

I am reading what you have all wrote and my head is spinning.
is there such a thing such as a home owners guide to buying solar panels? I live in california so So.Ca. Edison is our electricity provider.

Corinth


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## ibglowin (May 28, 2015)

We just spent the long weekend with our daughter and SIL in Burbank and we spoke at length about solar and he had some interesting insight along these lines. He is on the water board and very tuned in on the changes coming down the road concerning both water and electricity. 

The takeaway from him is that you can't trust the numbers that are coming out of the mouths of the companies selling PV's these days. They all are quoting a static price per KWH for electricity so they can provide a quick and simple formula for payback time when the fact of the matter is that as more and more people start hooking up panels into the grid and dumping power they are actually LOSING money as they have an over abundance of electricity already when the sun is at peak power, then they have to PAY money at other times of the day as the PV's are all angled and peaked for maximum wattage from the sun. He said what they need now is more PV's that are angled to provide more power at those other times of the day. Early to mid morning and mid to late afternoon. So they could start forcing people to set up their systems for less than peak power if they want to connect into the grid. 

The other "biggie" and this is huge is that the power companies are all going to have to switch their pricing model to higher and higher "fixed cost" and the price you pay for a KWH of electricity is going to go way down………. 

That is going to make the time to pay back your PV system go WAY up as it will cost you more and more $$$$$ to connect into the grid and they are going to pay you less and less $$$$ for a KWH of electricity unless you have your PV's pointed at one of the less than optimal directions (morning and late PM).

Caveat Emptor!


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## jgmann67 (May 28, 2015)

This is starting to sound like my friends who argue that they should buy a motorcycle to save money on gas... I tell them, "look if you want a motorcycle, then get one. But, don't pretend it will save you any money." Once you factor in the cost of the bike, the insurance, the maintenance AND the fact that you still have a car, and subtract the nominal amount of money that you save in gas per year; you never break even (let alone save money).

The same seems to go for solar panels (maybe more so, because they only have something like a 15-20 year lifespan). Focused simply on the homeowner, can someone who installs solar panels save enough money over the long term to not only recover the investment, but spend less? I don't know, but the math doesn't look like it runs in the homeowner's favor (especially in states with limited sunshine or a booming natural gas industry that keeps the cost of electric from the "grid" relatively low).


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## BernardSmith (May 28, 2015)

I dunno... Strikes me that the power companies should be creating solar farms and selling us the electricity. Cannot see how it can possibly be efficient (in terms of the physics or the $$$) for each individual home to install a power generator..


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## ibglowin (May 28, 2015)

Another factor here that hasn't been mentioned is that before you can have a PV system installed you MUST have a roof in very good to like new condition or they will not install it on your roof. 

So…….. now you might be adding in another $10-15K for a new roof if yours is shot and in need of replacing,


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## ibglowin (May 28, 2015)

Our small town did back in 2012. Again 325 days of sun per year on average. This is the site of the former county landfill (now closed) so kinda a perfect spot.












BernardSmith said:


> I dunno... Strikes me that the power companies should be creating solar farms and selling us the electricity. Cannot see how it can possibly be efficient (in terms of the physics or the $$$) for each individual home to install a power generator..


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## richmke (May 28, 2015)

ibglowin said:


> The other "biggie" and this is huge is that the power companies are all going to have to switch their pricing model to higher and higher "fixed cost" and the price you pay for a KWH of electricity is going to go way down……….



That is what they are doing in Wisconsin.

Historically, electric bills have low fixed component (meter charge), and high usage charge. That encourages energy conservation. However, it does not reflect the fixed/variable cost of the electric company.

WE Energies is starting to shift their rates so the Meter Charge is higher to reflect the high fixed costs of providing electricity (transmission wires, power plants), and lower per unit cost (fuel charge). The size of your meter is proportionate to your peak demand, and thus the allocable share of power plant construction costs.

Since most people still need to have a connection to the grid for when the sun doesn't shine, they are still stuck with the high fixed costs of delivering the first kWh of power. The variable cost of selling the solar power back to the utility is worth a lot less.

BTW: I think power demand is somewhat related to the sun. Peak usage is around 1-3 pm. So, having all the solar does help a utility to "peak shave". However, the utility does need to have all the stand-by (fixed cost) power available in case the sun doesn't shine that day.


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## Kraffty (May 28, 2015)

Hi Corinth, since we're basically neighbors, I'd love to hear what you find/decide. I'm vaguely interested too but from the little research I've done so far I don't see a clear advantage for me. If I buy I'll have to replace it in time so I'm looking at a life time of payments. If I lease I see the same thing and both ways all I'm really doing is choosing between the electric company or an equipment company as to who gets my payments. The ultimate goal of selling back unused power and having no or a low bill doesn't seem realistic to me without installing a small solar panel farm and massive storage capacity. I'm sure we'll see major changes in time but for now I just use the level pay plan, average our usage and pay 150.00 or so monthly and accept it's part of the expense of living in this area. 
Mike


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## JDC (May 28, 2015)

Solar is not currently a viable alternative in many areas of the US without the incentives or tax breaks, so you also have to look at the costs and play the "what if" if the incentives and breaks were to go away. If you live in an area where the cost of electricity from the POCO is high and you have a lot of sun light and you have the foot print to install them they may be viable for you. An additional cost that may not be mentioned up front is that most states & POCOs require you to hire a "Certified" meter reader to verify your regeneration to the grid. Another cost/changes required if you want to generate to the grid is a meter that will read how much is sent TO the grid AND you typically have to sign a contract with a Green Energy supplier/distributor to get the most $/KW (and they will take a fee). It is NOT economically feasible where I live for most folks to do Solar, they will never recoup the initial install cost on either energy savings or generation - unless they generate a lot. I am an EE, and can do much of the design/install myself - and have looked at this for quite some time, but since I don't live in the south or west & I only pay 7 cents/kw, it won't happen for me unless I just want to play. For those that wonder why the POCO is charging fees for solar/wind hook-ups, they also have to pay for the upgrades to the system to handle the energy you are generating - what if all of you and all of your neighbors now are generating over three times the energy your area requires? You are now the POCO and "someone" has to pay to upkeep the infrastructure, as you just got rid of the "former" POCO's energy revenue stream.


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## JDC (May 28, 2015)

BernardSmith said:


> I dunno... Strikes me that the power companies should be creating solar farms and selling us the electricity. Cannot see how it can possibly be efficient (in terms of the physics or the $$$) for each individual home to install a power generator..



Actually, smaller generating units can be more efficient, as you don't require the large grid to supply power from far away. No need for the large 750 kV power lines from WV/VA to DC and the south east for example. It always makes more sense to generate in close proximity to usage, it is just the NIMBY impact that puts the power plants far away.


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## richmke (May 28, 2015)

JDC said:


> Actually, smaller generating units can be more efficient, as you don't require the large grid to supply power from far away. No need for the large 750 kV power lines from WV/VA to DC and the south east for example. It always makes more sense to generate in close proximity to usage, it is just the NIMBY impact that puts the power plants far away.



Half true. If all there was is solar, then you don't need a grid. However, because you need power when the sun doesn't shine, you need the grid (750 kV power lines) to get the power from the coal/gas/nuclear plant to your house.

That is a major problem with solar. You still need all the other means of generation for when the sun is not shining. I was reading some stories about all the planning that Europe had to do for a recent solar eclipse. They had to have plants on-line to handle the drop is solar production during the 30 minutes or so of the eclipse.


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## BernardSmith (May 28, 2015)

Is this solar energy channeled as photo-voltaic or some other energy (heat?)


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## Brian55 (May 28, 2015)

Until battery technology gets significantly better and cheaper, which we're on the cusp of, solar is not a great investment. If you're out in the middle of nowhere, off the grid, and know how to live with a minimal amount of electricity, a solar system would be a nice luxury.


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## ibglowin (May 28, 2015)

Or a means to store the excess when you have excess. That is where the Tesla Powerwall could be a game changer.



richmke said:


> That is a major problem with solar. You still need all the other means of generation for when the sun is not shining.


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## JDC (May 29, 2015)

richmke said:


> Half true. If all there was is solar, then you don't need a grid. However, because you need power when the sun doesn't shine, you need the grid (750 kV power lines) to get the power from the coal/gas/nuclear plant to your house.
> 
> That is a major problem with solar. You still need all the other means of generation for when the sun is not shining. I was reading some stories about all the planning that Europe had to do for a recent solar eclipse. They had to have plants on-line to handle the drop is solar production during the 30 minutes or so of the eclipse.




I stand by what I said, nothing in my post is a false statement (half truth). I specifically state small generation. Not solar. That generation can be anything. Solar, if oversized properly, will have battery storage to ride trough the night. I am not advocating solar, if fact quite the opposite, I want you to use large amounts of electricity and buy a new car every year. I work for a company that mines coal, drills for gas, and generates electricity. But, if every home and every building, and every factory had a small gen or fuel cell - the need for a large scale grid of high voltage power lines diminishes. The high voltage lines interconnect the large plants, if the large plants go away.......I am an EE with 35 years in industrial power and automation. If you want to discuss my half-truths we can do so on another forum.


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## terrymck (May 29, 2015)

How come on this entire thread no one has mentioned insulation? This is the way to get a pay back faster than installing solar panels. Think foam; closed cell in the roof and open cell in the walls. Stop the air movement and seal the house. Good, double pane windows complete the project. Much easier to do on new construction but very doable on an existing home. It may involve installing a whole house vent system but so what. While you are at it install an on demand gas water heater and get away from heating water no one is using.


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## Kraffty (May 29, 2015)

terrymck, great point. Newer homes out here are built with lots of insulation throughout. Mine was built in 1953, a flat top that didn't even have an attic. I've since insulated the roof, replaced windows and have started insulating the walls. The effect is dramatic but we still use a lot of power keeping cool during the summer and fall.
Mike


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## JDC (May 29, 2015)

terrymck said:


> How come on this entire thread no one has mentioned insulation? This is the way to get a pay back faster than installing solar panels. Think foam; closed cell in the roof and open cell in the walls. Stop the air movement and seal the house. Good, double pane windows complete the project. Much easier to do on new construction but very doable on an existing home. It may involve installing a whole house vent system but so what. While you are at it install an on demand gas water heater and get away from heating water no one is using.




You are spot on here, a tank style water heater is one of the largest wastes of energy we have. Europe is ahead of us in moving to the on-demand units. After the move to CFL and LED lighting, the electric water heaters will be the next target to shed load from the power systems. A well insulated home is priority one, and can yield savings even in a moderate climate. I have an outdoor wood burner for primary heat ( qualifies as renewable) with an on demand water heater, I never run out of hot water in the winter. We only recently got natural gas, so I will soon switch my summer use electric water heater to gas units, I am looking at smaller on demand units right now. I don't know why more in the south & south west do not utilize solar-heat water systems, or at the very least solar pre-heat for the water. I built a soar water heater for a pool from common items, old windows and black pvc pipe 37 yards ago that worked in WV.


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## heatherd (May 29, 2015)

On the topic of insulation....

Our utility company was running a special a few years ago, where an energy audit was $99 and you got rebates and tax incentives for work done by one of their list of contractors.

The energy auditor came to the house and checked everything out. He used an infrared camera to view the patterns of temperature around the house. He could see air leaks where they were happening throughout the house. He did a blower door test, where he hooked a powerful fan up to our front door blowing out, which pulled air through the house. It showed that we had air leaks at many of our interior walls (we have no attic and vaulted ceilings), at bathtubs, at outlets and switches, and at door and window frames.

He gave us that report, then we fixed a bunch of the issues, then he came back to recheck. Definitely helpful and certainly saving me money.

We were already planning to add insulation, so the timing was beneficial and we ended up getting rebates and tax credits for adding icynene spray insulation in our crawl spaces, sealing around windows and doors, and adding bat insulation to our basement walls.

Heather


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## corinth (May 29, 2015)

*solar energy installation experiencex*

Maybe I am missing something and if I am, I apologize but I do not think I have heard anybody talk about their experiences about when they had solar panels installed?
Corinth


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## ibglowin (May 29, 2015)

Ya, because NOBODY has!


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## corinth (May 30, 2015)

*solar energy panels*

Somebody does or they would not be at every home center. I waiting to see them show up at Kohls!There are a lot of people who do or the solar panel industry to produce electricity to homes would have gone the way of cassette tapes( I still have some out of sentimentality).*maybe someone will come forward with their experiences.* I have copied down what I consider the pertinent information you have all given me and will continue to do so. I am also collecting info from other sites on what to ask so you don't get taken. Somewhere down the yellow brick road, I will come up with enough info but I thought I would throw it out here and hope or pray someone steps forward who has had panels installed.


Corinth
PS: thanks for all your feedback so far


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## ibglowin (May 30, 2015)

Our County Utility has a nice web page on Solar Power. They pretty much have it all laid out in one spot including a nice Solar Guidance packet.

I live in an unusual place (to say the least LOL). 

The highest number of PhD's per capita ------ Check!
The highest number of "millionaires" per capita ------ Check!

And yet with all that going as well as the amount of sunshine there are very few solar panels and none being installed currently that I know of anyways.


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## wineinmd (May 30, 2015)

I would imagine there is a strong correlation between the number of PhD's and millionaires per capita.


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