# Use of chemicals in homemade wines



## windy0062 (Nov 7, 2006)

This is a very controversial topic, but I stick by it 100%.

It used to be that wines, "grape" wines, had what were called "vintage" years, often every other year, usually in even-numbered years, because the weather was better. The wine tasted better from those years.

Wine connoiseurs looked forward to the "vintage" wines and paid a premium price for them. Soil played an important role in these wines but the most important role was the weather. But, over the years, beginning in the late 1960's and becoming a common practice by the 1970's worldwide, the use of chemicals to pH balance and taste adjust became wide spread and the wines, year after year, became "vintage" in taste and aroma.

Well, I "began" making wine in 1966 - a short-lived experiment as none of us had any idea about making wine. But later I got back into it. 

In my family a lot of serious allergies exist. A couple of our family members cannot drink commercial wines becuase of the "stoppers" used in the wines to keep them from going bad. And I learned that, in general, wines with an above 14% alcohol level were generally self-preserving without any additives or preservatives. So when I began making wine I "shot for" a 15% alcohol content. 

I quickly learned, with the blackberries, that 2 gallons of the 6-7% juice with 8 gallons of 16% sugar water equated to just under to just over the "magic" 14% alcohol level I needed. So I shoot for a beginning sugar level of about 17-18% in my blackberry wine and 16% in other fruit wines. 

Because of this I use exclusively EC-1118 (the Champagne) yeast, which allows a higher yield (up to 18%) alcohol. But I have fermented the blackberry on its own "native" yeast with excellent results, even at the higher alcohol levels I strive for. 

As an aside note here: For 2007 I will begin, blackberry only, using a very special new yeast called Artisan Extreme 20 Turbo Yeast, rated "up to" 20% alcohol in 18 days, but which provides actual yields of up to 25% alcohol. At that level we're in the brandy range. So on my own website (http://www.homemadefruitwines.com, not in service yet but soon) I'll keep this experiment posted as to results. This yeast, however, provides a cleaner alcohol and more flavorful fruit result, so I'm looking forward to next year's blackberry crop and resultant wine.

Thus, I use absolutely NO chemicals of any kind in my wines and winemaking, other than sanitation of utensils. The resultant flavor and aroma I get is strictly due to the combination of yeast, filtered water and that year's fruit used. Regardless of your allergies (except to alcohol, of course), you can drink my wine because there's nothing in them but fermented fruit juice and high alcohol as a preservative. Not even finings.

And I strongly urge others to adopt a "no chemicals" attitude and methodology in their own fruit winemaking efforts.

Windy Windblad, [email protected]

*Edited by: windy0062 *


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## masta (Nov 7, 2006)

Welcome Windy, 


While I think it is great you are making your fruit wines with a "no chemicals" attitude I would like to reiterate that all wine contains sulfite and this article explains it well;


It is impossible to make a sulfite-free wine, because wine yeast produce sulfur dioxide (SO2) during the fermentation process. Wines with no added sulfite contain from 6 to 40 ppm of sulfite, according to most experts. 

Only a small percentage of the population (approximately 0.01%) is truly allergic to sulfites. These people lack the digestive enzyme sulfite oxidase and therefore can’t metabolize sulfites. This small percentage of the population is also asthmatic, so many doctors test their patients for sulfite allergies when a diagnosis of asthma is made. These individuals typically know they’re allergic from childhood and so know to avoid all foods and beverages that contain sulfites including, but not limited to, lunchmeats, processed salami, processed fruit juices, packaged seafood and dried fruits, as well as wine. 

Sulfur dioxide gets a bad rap because of the government warning label plastered on wine bottles that is only targeted to this select group of consumers. Furthermore, many people blame sulfites for the group of symptoms commonly called the “wine headache.” These symptoms are often simply caused by the alcohol in the product. There has been some speculation in the medical community that histamines — a naturally occurring substance found in foods like canned tuna and wine — are a possible culprit of this “red wine malaise,” but there has been no conclusive evidence so far. Ironically, many consumers drink white wine, thinking red wines have more sulfites, when actually white wines typically do. 

If you want to lessen the amount of sulfites you use in your wine, keep the following things in mind. Sulfur dioxide is used for two reasons: its anti-microbial ability and its antioxidant capacity. Therefore, if you want to use less of it, minimize the amount of microbes and oxygen that contact your wine in every stage of its life. Cleaning and sanitizing effectively is one of the easiest ways to knock down populations of spoilage bugs. Make sure your incoming fruit, juice or concentrate is clean and free of visible mold or bacterial colonies before inoculation. Use a strongly-fermenting commercial yeast for your primary fermentation in order to out-compete spoilage organisms in the first few weeks of a wine’s life. Make sure your wines are fermented to dryness so there is no residual sugar left as a carbon source for spoilage bacteria. Gas your empty containers with carbon dioxide during transfers and rackings so that there is minimal contact with oxygen. 

Natural wine components that inhibit organisms are alcohol and acid. High pH (low acid) wines are more prone to microbial attack, so keeping the pH lower than 3.5 will help retard infection. The lower the pH, the more unhappy most sorts of spoilage bacteria will be. Similarly, the higher the alcohol, the more unhappy the organisms. Alcohol levels over 14% can help to keep bugs at bay. 

At the end of the day, using sulfites in winemaking is usually not a health issue. Judicious of sulfite use can significantly increase the quality of your wine. International regulatory boards usually set legal levels at around 350 ppm total sulfur dioxide and most commercial wines are bottled with totals between 50-100 ppm. A little bit of SO2, used wisely, goes a long way and won’t hurt 9,999 out of 10,000 of us.


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## geocorn (Nov 7, 2006)

As usual, nice post, Masta.


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## kutya (Nov 7, 2006)

Windy: I have to chime in here.... I'm glad what you are doing is working for you, but most of us have not been making wine since the 60's, and I feel that offering this advice to a group of people who are rather new to wine making is not good advice. I will be honest with you, I would be scared not to add sulfites to my wine. Since you have a great deal of wine making experience, I hope to learn from you, but I'm sorry this advice I personally will not follow. jh


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## Angell Wine (Nov 7, 2006)

I taught this was the reason for hangovers:

<H1 =firsting>Phenols</H1>
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<H3 id=siteSub>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</H3>
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In organic chemistry, *phenols*, sometimes called *phenolics*, are a class of chemical compounds consisting of a hydroxyl group (-OH) attached to an aromatic hydrocarbon group. The simplest of the class is phenol (C<SUB>6</SUB>H<SUB>5</SUB>OH).
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Phenol - the simplest of the phenols.


Although similar to alcohols, phenols have unique properties and are not classified as alcohols (since the hydroxyl group is not bonded to a _saturated_ carbon atom). They have relatively higher acidities due to the aromatic ring tightly coupling with the oxygen and a relatively loose bond between the oxygen and hydrogen. The acidity of the hydroxyl group in phenols is commonly intermediate between that of aliphatic alcohols and carboxylic acids. Loss of a positive hydrogen ion (H+) from the hydroxyl group of a phenol forms a negative *phenolate* ion.


Some phenols are germicidal and are used in formulating disinfectants. Others possess estrogenic or endocrine disrupting activity


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## sangwitch (Nov 7, 2006)

Well, you said it was going to be a controversial topic windy!







1966 huh? Ihave only the fraction of experience you haveand have only just extended beyond wine kits, but I certainly enjoyed your post and I'm glad you stepped in to "stir themust" so to speak.


Ithink there is an over-commercializationof wine making these days and in factI recently posted an excerpt from a Robert Parker article that addresses the issue. Although my wine making skills are fairly new, my wine enjoyment certainly is not and I've been fortunate over the years to taste quite a few vintages. (thanks be to clients and expense accounts!



)
Anyway... I use additives and will continue to do so until convinced otherwise,but I do like the idea ofkeeping additives to a minimum whenever possible. For instance, if I'm making a kit wine and it comes time to add the fining agents I don't just dump everything in because the instructions say to do so. I prefer to let the wine bulk-age longer and settle out as much as possible on its own and then I might add a fraction of the fining agents to achieve the same results using the test-add-test method.


When I started making wineI stuck to tried-and-true methods and as my knowledge and experience grows I willexperiment. I suggest the same for anyone who is new to wine making. 


Thanks for sharingwindy and welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading more posts by you... especially if they prompt some good responses like I think this one did. 

*Edited by: sangwitch *


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## sangwitch (Nov 7, 2006)

windy, what are you referring to as "chemicals"? I got the idea from your post that you were against adding k-meta, but I see from your recipes on your website that they all call for some. ??


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## windy0062 (Nov 7, 2006)

Many thanks for your very informative posting. All new information is greatly appreciated and may well prove helpful. And I am always willing to learn as much as I can about my wine-making hobby. I'm still a relative novice. And very useful information you have provided on the PH content of wines....something I really didn't know but its useful to know. However, while it will likely benefit many readers, I never make adjustments to pH, etc., because I won't be involved with anything remotely construed as "chemical tinkering" with my finished product.

What "naturally occurs" is one thing. That can normally be tolerated by just about anybody except the person allergic to the alcohol itselfr.

However, in our family we number two (2) "cilliacs", as well as one "cilliac" among our close friends. None of these can handle commercial sulfite levels at all, nor is there any "quick fix" for them. They can all drink my wine with no ill effects.

As we both point out, alcohol contents above 14% help to inhibit the browth of funky and/or nasty bacteria and to inhibit spoilage. Which is why I shoot for "above 14%" levels in my wines.

I do, however, take great pains to clean and sanitize and rinse all my equipment, constantly. I go thru several gallons of potassium metabisulfite weekly when I'm racking my wines. And while you are very correct in your final paragraph on sulfites and sulfite levels in commercial wines, and as naturally occuring things there likely are some sulfites in my wines, there will never be any "added" by me. Nor any other chemicals, to include something as innocuous as "finings". Thus, anyone can drink my wines with impunity, without regard to any existing medical conditions including allergties (except, of course, to the alcohol itself). Best always and many thanks, Windy


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## windy0062 (Nov 7, 2006)

Hi, JH, I appreciate your post - and wish it had all been included within the "on site" posting.

Actually, I "helped make my first wine" in 1968, in the jungles of Vietnam. It was less than a roaring success. Other than that, I'm a relative novice and beginner as 2006 is only my 11th year of making wine.

I made my first wine, Cabernet Sauvignon, in February of 1996, in a 3-gallon ice cream pail, with a hole drilled in the lid for an air lock. The last bottle of that was drunk in 2002 at a backyard picnic and was pretty good!

Later on in 1996, in the summer, my wife and I picked blackberries for pies, jam and jelly, and to make some wine from "just to see what we would get"?

We have gone through 4 different recipes, finally settling on the recipe we are using now in 2003 (4 years). And it was not until about 1998 that I learned that 14% + alochol of itself inhibited nasty bug growth and thus spoilage. I got this from a winemaking professional as information he seldom passed out to most people but as I was making fruit wines he thought I might benefit from the information.

But, so that you will know, I am still learning, especially from these posts and responses, and am myself still relatively a "novice" at the "winemaking arts". Good luck and stick to your own decisions for your own reasons. And never forget you are never too old to learn. I'm 70 now and look forward to many more years of happy wine making and sharing with my friends. Backyard picnics are enhanced with a couple of bottles of homemade wine. Windy*Edited by: windy0062 *


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## windy0062 (Nov 7, 2006)

Wheeeeeeuuuw! "K-meta"? And I'm calling for "adding them" in my own recipes? But would you believe I donlt have a clue what you are talking about?

Shows just how much I don't know, doesn't it? Yeah, a lot!

I use Potassium Metabisulfite for sanitizing all my equipment prior to use (and in the case of the prime fermenter buckets I generally bleach them first), and after sanitizing I carefully rinse them - several times.

I don't put anything into my wine but: fruit, filtered water, EC-1118 yeast and yeast nutrient. I do not even use finings because, if it needs something like that, simple filtration through a medium filter should do the trick nicely.

So, just what is "k-meta"? And where do I recommend using it? Thanks, Windy*Edited by: windy0062 *


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## windy0062 (Nov 7, 2006)

A great topic to bring up, and I applaud it. Phenols apparently are where most of the deeper flavors are derived from in full-bodied wines, and limiting them will enhance the fruitiness but remove the deeper full-bodied nuances.

Not exactly 100% on the above. A better explanation of it can be found at htp://www.brewhaus.ca and search through all their appropriate topics. It could also be at https://secure.brewhaus.ca? Although that might just be the order page???

Meantime, they sell a product I just checked out and ordered - Artisan Extreme 20 Turbo Yeast - and decided to order and use next year in my blackberry wine. It is rated "up to 20% alcohol in 18 days," and we know that it will product alcohol contents up to 25%.

It is supposed to limit some of the bad things from the fermentation process and make a "cleaner finished product" - as well as works well on 20% and even higher alcohol yields.

I'll use it to make approximately a 16% alcohol blackberry wine, by the way. 

I liked what I read there so much that I ordered 16 packets of the yeast for next year. It has already arrived (last Friday), so I'm ready.

Next year I expect that we will pick 84 gallons of blackberries for wine and get another 90 gallons of wine from it. It will be very interesting to see the difference that this yeast - quite expensive, by the way - makes in the finished blackberry wine compared to our previous years? I'll keep you posted by my own wine website - which will be up no later than early January. Its at http://www.homemadefruitwines.com - or will be? Windy*Edited by: windy0062 *


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## grapeman (Nov 8, 2006)

You have some interesting points Windy. This will stir things up. It's kind of like the debates we used to have in college over organic vs chemical farming. Nowadays it seems to be a combination like I used to preach- use as little chemicals as necessary to make a useable product. If you can make it without adding anything that doesn't naturally occur so much the better for us all.


In case you really don't know what K-Meta is- it is shorthand for Potassium(K) "Meta"bisulfite. So you see if you call for Potassium Metabisulfite you really are adding K-Meta in the recipe.


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## smurfe (Nov 8, 2006)

sangwitch said:


> windy, what are you referring to as "chemicals"? I got the idea from your post that you were against adding k-meta, but I see from your recipes on your website that they all call for some. ??




He uses the K-Meta for sanitation of the equipment onlyfrom what I could tell. All the recipes looked basically the same. Nice site although I had issues with the statements you can't buy fruit commercial producedfruit wines. I can go to the local grocery and buy fruit wines from at least a dozen wineries. Blueberry and Raspberry wines are very popular here.I might just try one of these recipes to see how it comes out. 


Smurfe


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## lednugenna (Nov 8, 2006)

Windy, I am very interested in what you have to say. I have many allergies as do many in my family and I would love to make wine without any unneccesary aditives if I can. Of course I have not even made my first batch yet so I am even newer than a newbie but I am learning so much here. I Know that many people would not make wine that way and I can understand that,in fact if it comes down to it I probably will not either. But I would be sad if I could not drink my own wine. Also I plan to make only one gallon batches so to lose a gallon is not nearly as scarey as losing 6 gallons. Well, I hope this made sense as I need coffee now. Just wanted to let you know that I am very intested in making wine your way.  
Anne


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## sangwitch (Nov 8, 2006)

smurfe said:


> He uses the K-Meta for sanitation of the equipment onlyfrom what I could tell.




you are correct. I only read the ingredient list last night and not the instructions.


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## windy0062 (Nov 8, 2006)

Ahah! Got it - k-meta = Potassium Metabisulfite. Thanks.

But....I do not "add it to" the wine in any way, shape or fashion. I use it exclusively for sanitizing my equipment prior to use, and after sanitization I thoroughly rinse the equipment. What few traces of "k-meta" might remain are negligible. Windy


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## windy0062 (Nov 8, 2006)

Thanks for picking up on that....great catch. I just responded similarly to a different post here.

Meantime, re: "fruit wines" at the stores. Yes, you can go to the grocery store and purchase commercially produced fruit-flavored wines - strawberry hill was one of the first of them some 40 years ago?

However, to my knowlege, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, these are all "fruit flavored basic grape wines", none of them being 100% pure fruit wines at all.

I have even made a couple of them myself. I make a fine rhubarb wine with French Columbard base by boiling 5 lbs of rhubarb in 1/2 gallon of filtered water and using 2 litres of granulated sugar.

And a couple of years ago, when I made my first cultivated blackberry wine I also made a blackberry/Chablis wine. All three blackberries tasted like blackberry, yet all three were very different from one another - the cultivated, wild and Chablis versions.

However, until proven wrong my stated position is: 100% fruit wines are not practical for many reasons and so are not commercially produced. Windy


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## windy0062 (Nov 8, 2006)

Hi, Anne, and many thanks for your post.

I appreciate your position, and hope you do find time and a way to make your small batches of wine.

If you email me directly at [email protected], subject: Wine, I'll email you a flyer I recently prepared on how to make small batches of fruit wines at home, cheaply and easily. Usually in 2 or 4 gallon increments. And not taking excessive space even in small apartments.

Windy


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## Coaster (Nov 8, 2006)

WhenI lived in CA there were plenty of wineries that made 100% fruit wines. They were mostly in 375 ml bottles. We tried many as dessert wines and such. You couldn't get em in storesall across the USbut there were lots to choose from locally. A quick web search of "100% fruit wines" will pull up several sites that sell them, I even saw a dandelion wine for sale on one site!


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## windy0062 (Nov 8, 2006)

OK, my first "Google" search for "100% fruit wines" showed ZERO results. My next search for "100 percent fruit wines" turned up 3 results. And the major one, Tomasello of NJ, produces limited quantity, 5 varieties, the blueberry for export only under a re-labeling contract with Japan where, apparently, the blueberry is in great demand. It should be, it is a fine wine.

The other two are Key West, FL and Lingamore, Mount Airy, MD. These are the only three entries I found on 100 percent fruit wines, Googled. And I have never see any of them in any wine stores, nor advertised. A local winery buys up the commercially unsaleable cultivated blackberry crop (pennies on the dollar) for making a "blackberry flaovred" commercial wine.

So, apparently there are "100% fruit wines" comercially available out there. I'm corrected, and many thanks. But lets take a look at what cost? My "100% fruit varieties" include:
Blackberry
Cultivated Blackberry
Blueberry
Oregon Grape
Elderberry
Strawberry
Cherry (red, black and Byng)
Wild Rose Hip
Plum (Italian prune variety)
Pear (winter hard pear variety)
Grapefruit/Phillipine Mango
Raspberry
Raspberry/Blueberry blend (2r:1b)
Blackberry Port (dry) a blend of blackberry (60%), cherry (35%), oregon grape and raspberry (5% total the two).

This makes a pretty nice wine cellar and good variety. When I add the rhubarb, blackberry/Chablis, blackberry/Burgundy and Elderberry/Burgundy blends it becomes an unmatched wine cellar. 

The nice thing about my wines is that the total, true cost per bottle is now about $0.60 a bottle, up from about $0.35 a bottle when I started making wine 10 years ago. And this includes a label (as good as any commercial label but personalized for us and the fruit), a cork and shrink cap.

My labels run about $0.05 each. My wine cellar variety has something for just about every palate. My price per bottle lets me have a lovely cellar - but the grape blends actually run about $3.00 a bottle - a little on the expensive side.*Edited by: windy0062 *


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## Coaster (Nov 8, 2006)

My google must be biased towards my location or preferences 'cuz I was able to locate several including 3 in east Texas (kinda makes me wonder if Google is spying on me




) 


first hit off Google http://www.rushcreekwines.com/production.htm
second hit http://www.crosscreekgroves.com/
third hit http://www.winesparkle.com/fruitwines.html


other leads include these Texas ones below.


http://www.maydellewines.com/products.htm
http://www.pineywoodswines.com/winelist.htm
http://www.brunoandgeorge.com/fruit_wines.htm


You certainly have a nice selection to choose from. I generaly don't see fruit wines advertised either but I saw a great variety of themon my ventures to wineries in both CA and TX. 


I am certain that those wines above use checmicals (due to regulations and such) and I believe in the use of chemicals also, if used properly. Jack Keller says it best for me when he describes chemicals as tools and says "I believe in using the best tools available to get the job done." http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/additives.asp I know everyone doesn't follow this train of thought nor do I think that they have too. As I mentioned in another psot, one of my favorite quotes on this site is something to the tune of "There are as many ways to make wine as there are people who enjoy wine".


As for cost, that's a different discussion all together with a number of variables to be considered: commercial vs homebrew (isn't this one of the top 5 - dare I say top 2 reasons we homebrew wines



), purchased base vs homegrown base, grape vs non-grape, etc. One man's expensive $3 wine is another mans heck of a deal $3 wine. I like fruit wines, but I also like grape wines so comparing grape cost to fruit cost isn't really all that important to me. If my only objective was the lowest cost wine, I'd be making a far differenct selection of wines than I do now, in a far different manner. I admire the fact you can make wine for 60 cents. For 30 bottles thats about $18. I guess that's about $10.90 in supplies ($5.10 for corks, $3 for shrink wraps, $1 for yeast, $0.30 for k-meta (sanitize only), $1.50 for labels) leaving about $7 for the base and other stuff (I don't know if you use energizer or nutrient). Very low cost, but not something I have access too (I don't grow my own stuff, sadly).


I'm facinated by all the styles and ways one can make wine (I really want to try a wheat wine one day for my father but waiting two years for it to mellow is mind boggling to me). Thanks for sharing.


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## smurfe (Nov 8, 2006)

windy0062 said:


> OK, my first "Google" search for "100% fruit wines" showed ZERO results. My next search for "100 percent fruit wines" turned up 3 results. And the major one, Tomasello of NJ, produces limited quantity, 5 varieties, the blueberry for export only under a re-labeling contract with Japan where, apparently, the blueberry is in great demand. It should be, it is a fine wine.
> 
> The other two are Key West, FL and Lingamore, Mount Airy, MD. These are the only three entries I found on 100 percent fruit wines, Googled. And I have never see any of them in any wine stores, nor advertised. A local winery buys up the commercially unsaleable cultivated blackberry crop (pennies on the dollar) for making a "blackberry flaovred" commercial wine.
> 
> ...




There are numerous places that produce 100% fruit wines. Particularly in the Southern United States. In fact, most wines produced around where I live are indeed fruit wines as the only type of grape that will grow around here readily is muscadines and many do not have a taste for muscadine wines. I myself have yet to try one I really cared for that was home made as they are all too sweet, but I would really like to try a dry muscadine wine.


In regards to 100% fruit wines the best Raspberry wine I have drank from a vineyard was from Smokey Mountain Winery in Gatlinburg Tennessee. It is excellent and award winning (Gold)at the Indy competition.


http://www.smokymountainwinery.com/winelist.html


A side note here is to give credit where it is due in stating that the best Raspberry wine I ever drank period was made by one of our members here Bill B, you will have a real hard time finding a raspberry that can top his, be it commercial or home made. Those that tried it at Winestock can vouch for that!


Right down the road in Pigeon Forge TN is another winery that makes superb wines. The best Cynthiana Wine I ever had was produced there and they make a very nice Blueberry. Right down the road from them is an Apple Orchard that has a winery that makes apple wines.


Around where I live in South Louisiana we have a few vineyards and wineries. Almost everyone of them produces 100% fruit wines from fruits grown in their own vineyards. Here is a link that lists the wines from the various wineries around where I live. These wineries range in distance from 5 miles to 40 miles from my house.


http://www.louisianawines.com/explore.cfm/wines/


As far as costs go, that really wasn't an issue. I just like to give credit to those that is due and a statement that there is no fruit wines available commercially is not correct. I don't really care if a bottle of wine cost 35 cents or 35 dollars, if I like it, I like it.If I don't, I don't. Chemicals added to the wine is not an issue either. I am sure these wineries add sulfite's to their musts but they are made from 100% fruit juices they pressed themselves. I watched them do it at a couple of the places I visited.


I do plan on trying one of your recipes to see how it turns out. I too suffer from sulfite sensitivity which is a shame considering how much I like wine. If I can make some organic, I am game to give it a shot. But as I said, the cost to produce is not a factor to me, or many that I know.Making a great wine is the only importance to me. I look forward to reading up more on your style. 


Thanks


Smurfe



*Edited by: smurfe *


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## Cracked Cork (Nov 8, 2006)

Hi Windy, I didnt see your recipie for 100% elderberry wine, there are
a lot of folks interested in elderberries right now and I would like to
hear about how you make your 100% elderberry wine and how long does it
take to be drinkable? When we started making wine we decided not to add
the K-Meta and ended up a few years later with a few oxidized wines,
are you able to age your for a couple of years without oxidation? How
are you keeping your pear wines from oxidizing?



Crackedcork







windy0062 said:


> OK, my first "Google" search for "100% fruit wines"
> showed ZERO results. My next search for "100 percent fruit wines"
> turned up 3 results. And the major one, Tomasello of NJ, produces
> limited quantity, 5 varieties, the blueberry for export only under a
> ...


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## windy0062 (Nov 8, 2006)

First, Coaster, I thank you for sharing. I have learned a whole lot about wines and winemaking just from the responses to my first three posts. Amazing what one can learn if one only keeps an open mind? Again thanks. Btw, I did my Google search with "100% fruit wines" (including the quotes to limit it to just that topic) with ZERO links returned and "100 per cent fruit wines" with 3 links turned up. So if you put your search in quotes you will definitely limit the responses you get.

"We" began "making our own wine" about 1992, in a wine store, where they actually do all the work except the bottling and corking. And we bought enough bottles that we had perhaps 10 cases of bottles at any given time. some full and some empty. And my sweetie quickly came to the conclusion that she liked reds better than whites.

Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say....so for we impoverished few who have expensive tastes.... Actually, a friend of mine borrowed our car (and me to drive) to go to Spagnols for grape juice to make wine. He purchased "?" galllons (took us two trips plus he made a third in a borrowed pickup) and we returned home with 5-6 70-liter carboys and 6 ea 6-gal pails of Merlot in one load and the same of Cabernet Sauvignon in the second load. Poor car!

I figured 'Heck, if he can make wine from juice, I can, too' and bought 10 litres, just enough to nearly fill a 3-gal. ice cream pail. I drilled a hole in the lid, purchazed an air lock and cork that fit, some yeast and proceeded to "make my first wine"! This cost about $2.00 a litre on sale (every February, 25% off everything in the store), so I figured about $2.00 a bottle with cork and label and when we tasted it, it was as good as or better than anything in the stores, and they ran from $10 a bottle up!

As I rode the busses and sky train to and from town to computer shows, etc (cheaper than parking the car) I talked to people who made wine at home and the reports I got were that blackberry wine was maybe the best of all homemade fruit wines? And maybe even better than most commercial grape wines? Came summer and we went out and picked blackberries - 12 gallons of fruit made 8 gallons of wine, more went into jam and pies. The wine was so strong in flavor we cut it 3:1 for coolers and it was still strong....but goooooood! We decided to cut down.

Summer of 1997 we picked 12 gallons of berries for wine and made 13 gallons. For 2007 we reduced it again to 3 gallons of berries for 4 gallons of wine, then 3 berries to 6 wine. After a few years of that, 4 years ago we decided it was just too weak and went back to 1:1 - or 3 gallons of berries producting about 3 1/4 gallons of wine.

Its full-bodied, fruity, blackberry for sure. And along the way I started keeping track of exactly how much it cost. First, of course, my wife, all our friends and I all agree that the blackberry wine is the equal, if not the superior, of any wine we can buy at any price. And it turned out that it was costing, with yeast, sugar, bottled water, corks and labels, about $0.35 a bottle to make.

We picked up most of our bottles from recycling (I now have 60 cases of empties - some [about 24 cases] are full - and will need another 40 cases before this year is over), which at that time was free. New bottles are cost-prohibitive at $1 a bottle. And now, with a deposit, to get them from recycling they still cost $0.25 each and have to be thoroughly cleaned.

But, my sweetie and I go through about 400 bottles of wine a year, plus gifts, and keeping the cost down to $300 or so a year is far better than doing it commercially for $6000 or so? Windy


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## windy0062 (Nov 8, 2006)

Reply 2: sorry I missed this part of the post.

I haven't made up my 100% elderberry recipe nor my elderburg recipe yet. But, basically, they are:

2 sets of: 2.75 gallons filtered water, 10 lb granulated sugar, 2 gallon (not de-stemmed) elderberries right off the tree (late September to early October hereabouts), 1 pkg of EC-1118 champagne yeast, 50 mg yeast nutrient.

De-stem the elderberries (like destemming grapes - mostly de-stemmed), you should get about 1 gallon of berries this way. Dissolve the sugar in the water, put the elderberries in the water, add yeast nutrient, sprinkle the yeast over the surfact and let react for an hour or two. Then stir the yeast into the mix. Better to use 4-gallon prime fermenters if you have them.

Let ferment for 7 days, rack and freeze the fruit, combine the two pails of wine, let ferment out (use heating pad if you don't have it up to 70 degrees F) another 21 days. Age in air-tight carboy for 30 days, use small package of French oak chips, let stand on oak chips for 7-21 days for the full flavor of the oak chips. Bottle when you are ready. Let bottle age for a year before drinking. It will be a very astringent wine.

Later on, add the elderberries to 6 gallons of Burgundy juice or a Burgundy wine kit. Let ferment on the fruit for 7 days. Rack, discard fruit, let burgundy ferment out another 21 days. Repeat steps as in the elderberry above. It will not be as astringent as the pure elderberry. I'll start my new elderberry project in March (they're in the freezer) when I have the rest of the wine cleared out of my cellar.

Alternative: Elderberry tonic. Take the ripe elderberries and extract the juice (squeezing in a mesh bag), use juice as is or mix with a "brandy-strength" pure unflavored alcohol (about 45 proof). My blackberry picking friend is doing this project as I write so we have no idea of how it might turn out, but we'll know in another 3-6 months when we try it out! Windy


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