# It begins... RJS Cellar Series Cabernet



## jgmann67

So, with a little time between honey-do stuff and movie night, I started my kit. 

It's in the primary fermenter with yeast, the three packets of oak and the Genuwine grape skins in the "sock." 

It's now in my wine room (repurposed bar) in the basement (which is at about 68-70 degrees). I know these answers may be available if I did enough searching, but I have some questions:

1. Is the room warm enough?

2. Should I stir the must daily?

3. Once I achieve the desired SG, and move to a secondary, what are thoughts on putting a spiral of French and American medium toasted oak in to the carboy at some point down the road?

4. What am I missing? 


Thanks!

Jim.


----------



## cpfan

Jim:

1. I like it a little warmer, but that should be good.

2. Hopefully you gave a vigourous stir to mix up the bentonite prior to pitching the yeast. Now you just need to stir under the sock of grape skins and oak. You can also squeeze it against the side of the fermenter.

3. Only you can tell how much oak you would like in this wine. Personally I might not have used all three packages that the kit came with (depending how big and exactly what oak). Others would go for the extra oak, just as you mentioned.

Hope you enjoy it in a couple of years.

Steve


----------



## jgmann67

cpfan said:


> Jim:
> 
> 1. I like it a little warmer, but that should be good.
> 
> 2. Hopefully you gave a vigourous stir to mix up the bentonite prior to pitching the yeast. Now you just need to stir under the sock of grape skins and oak. You can also squeeze it against the side of the fermenter.
> 
> 3. Only you can tell how much oak you would like in this wine. Personally I might not have used all three packages that the kit came with (depending how big and exactly what oak). Others would go for the extra oak, just as you mentioned.
> 
> Hope you enjoy it in a couple of years.
> 
> Steve




Thanks, Steve. I'm tinkering w the temp. Would prefer 72*. 

Yes, I stirred the bentonite, then again and again as the directions said. So every day, I should visit the must and stir to move things around. I like the idea of squeezing the grape sock.

The packets were kinda small. I think I should be okay. Will revisit the idea later in the process. I'm going to bulk this one for about 6 months, then bottle.


----------



## jgmann67

Please delete this duplicate. Starting to dislike this App.


----------



## jgmann67

Day 2 - the must is in the wine room at a constant 69* at this point. The airlock gives me a nice "blub" about every 45 seconds. 

If I'm going to be stirring the must daily, I'll need to mix another batch of Star San for the big spoon and thermometer. Wonder: spray it on and let them dry before using???

I'm giddy about the prospects of making my own wine. Can't seem to stop talking about it or reading or watching YouTube videos on the subject. I may have a problem. =)


----------



## sour_grapes

jgmann67 said:


> If I'm going to be stirring the must daily, I'll need to mix another batch of Star San for the big spoon and thermometer. Wonder: spray it on and let them dry before using???



I use starsan for my initial sanitizing, but I also keep a spray bottle handy with a concentrated k-meta solution. Then I can just spritz anything I want to quickly sanitize.



> I'm giddy about the prospects of making my own wine. Can't seem to stop talking about it or reading or watching YouTube videos on the subject. I may have a problem. =)



Fun, ain't it?


----------



## bkisel

Is that the Australian Cab Sav or the Spain Temp Cab that you're making? 

Of the three RJS WS batches I've completed - Washington Merlot, Super Tuscan and Cab Sav - I liked the Cab Sav the most. I've got the Italy Amarone Style bulk aging and am anxious to start another RJS WS kit somewhere down the line.

Like others I use a k-meta solution in a spray bottle to spritz my stirring spoon, rubber gloves, etc. a few minutes before they touch the wine.


----------



## jgmann67

Indeed. As usual, my wife is on standby with a "slow down cowboy" when needed. 

I need to go back to the local wine shop tomorrow (bottle spritzer I bought is busted). Kmeta? Will work that out, but getting a spray bottle with sanitizer is a must do. Will stir the must tomorrow. 

I'm very hopeful that this turns out.

Question: a home brewer friend suggested I skip adding the sulfites as it bitters the taste. Really? I'm one of those "follow the specs" guys (seriously, I put together a backyard swing set with 1,200 pieces and felt the need label each part before starting just so I knew I wasn't missing anything - I'm that bad). What are the pros and cons of sulfites?


----------



## jgmann67

bkisel said:


> Is that the Australian Cab Sav or the Spain Temp Cab that you're making?
> 
> Of the three RJS WS batches I've completed - Washington Merlot, Super Tuscan and Cab Sav - I liked the Cab Sav the most. I've got the Italy Amarone Style bulk aging and am anxious to start another RJS WS kit somewhere down the line.
> 
> Like others I use a k-meta solution in a spray bottle to spritz my stirring spoon, rubber gloves, etc. a few minutes before they touch the wine.




It's the Aussie Cab. I'm toying with the idea of an Amarone or Meritage as my third batch. Number 2 is a Chardonnay for my wife. Looking at the RJS CS or the Eclipse Cali Chard. Recommendations always welcome.


----------



## cmason1957

Cons of sulfites, not many. Just make sure to get potassium not sodium. 
Pros, one of the oldest best ways to keep nasty gems at bay. 

They aren't generally used in beer making sure to the yeasts not being as syringe as wine Yeast.


----------



## jgmann67

Thanks for the info on sulfites. I'm going to follow the directions as much as possible w this kit, so - in with the sulphites. 

Other details of this kit:

With an OG: 1.099, I'm guessing my ABV is going to land somewhere between 13.5 and 14%. Respectable, I think. 

The directions say I've got Potassium Metabisulphite and Potassium Sorbate. The packets that I pulled out of the box are labeled Sulphite-2A and two packets labeled Potassium Sorbate-2B. Directions say to dissolve them in room temp water and add to carboy at the stabilizing and clearing stage.


----------



## sour_grapes

You should probably leave the potassium sorbate out. It is unnecessary if you ferment to dry and are not adding any additional sugar. Even if you are the type of person to label pieces of a swing set!


----------



## ColemanM

Don't add the sorbate unless you are going to back sweeten or the wine finished above 1.000. I haven't used it since my first few wines and can tell the difference. Enjoy the excitement!


----------



## heatherd

Welcome to the hobby!!

I have a spray bottle of no-rinse cleanser for convenience, you can do the same with starsan or kmeta for sanitizing.

I agree about the sorbate - it is the only step in the instructions that I would not do.

Also, something that nobody told me when I started making wine: the reds benefit from a year of aging, and improve from there. Whites like Chardonnay need a bit of aging too.

Enjoy!!

Heather


----------



## jgmann67

Alrighty then, sulphites in, sorbates out. 

Making wine in a Pennsylvania winter... Crazy.




My workspace.

Silly question - how do I upload an avatar using the iPhone app?


----------



## bkisel

For at least the first few wine batches of wine I would "follow the specs". The kit, I believe, has a warranty and if for some reason the batch goes bad, yet you've followed the specs/instructions, your LHBS or RJS will compensate you.


----------



## cpfan

jgmann67 said:


> Alrighty then, sulphites in, sorbates out.
> 
> Making wine in a Pennsylvania winter... Crazy.
> 
> View attachment 21219
> 
> 
> My workspace.


Looks like a good starter set of equipment.

FYI, lots of people have had problems with that Fermtech Whip. Presumably it has also worked fine for lots of people too. However, I'm one of the ones that doesn't like it, even though I'm a HUGE fan of other Fermtech products. Can't remember exactly what I didn't like about it (it's been probably 10-12 years), but I think others have had problems with pieces of plastic coming off it.

I don't see anything to put the hydrometer in, eg a hydrometer jar or Thief. You can float it in the primary, but you need someway to read a sample out of the carboy. I like the Fermtech Thief. 
http://www.fermtech.ca/thief/thief.html

Plus, eventually you will probably want a floor corker.

Finally, might as well get a couple of extra hydrometers right away. They are SO breakable. My brother never got to use his first hydrometer, he broke it cleaning it the night before he started his first batch. Usually having a couple of spares around seems to stop them from breaking.

Steve


----------



## jgmann67

cpfan said:


> Looks like a good starter set of equipment.
> 
> FYI, lots of people have had problems with that Fermtech Whip. Presumably it has also worked fine for lots of people too. However, I'm one of the ones that doesn't like it, even though I'm a HUGE fan of other Fermtech products. Can't remember exactly what I didn't like about it (it's been probably 10-12 years), but I think others have had problems with pieces of plastic coming off it.
> 
> I don't see anything to put the hydrometer in, eg a hydrometer jar or Thief. You can float it in the primary, but you need someway to read a sample out of the carboy. I like the Fermtech Thief.
> http://www.fermtech.ca/thief/thief.html
> 
> Plus, eventually you will probably want a floor corker.
> 
> Finally, might as well get a couple of extra hydrometers right away. They are SO breakable. My brother never got to use his first hydrometer, he broke it cleaning it the night before he started his first batch. Usually having a couple of spares around seems to stop them from breaking.
> 
> Steve




It's funny, Steve, I was carting equipment up to the kitchen for sterilization and it fell out of the container and broke into a million pieces on the tile floor. 

Had to go out and get another. They're cheap - having a few on hand isn't a bad idea. 

I do need a jar for the hydrometer. I have a thief, but it's not suited for use w the hydrometer. Plus, it'll give me someplace to store it. 

Got a spray bottle today and will mix some sterilizer for it tonight. Need a tub of some kind for my "regular use" stuff. 

My drill is a battery run, low torque. I should be okay if I take it easy. Otherwise, I'll grab a different one.


----------



## jgmann67

End of Day 2:

Stirred the must and squeezed the grape skins in the primary. Gotta say, I love the smell. It filled the room pretty quickly. 

I don't think I'm going to stir every day (maybe every other until it's ready for the secondary). 

Spray bottle w sterilizing agent - awesome. It'll keep till I get to clearing stage, I think. Hardest part was doing the math for star san ( 1 oz per 5 gal = x tsp per half gallon). 

I'm still having an internal debate on sulphites and sorbates. Leaning yes- follow the directions to the bitter end (hopefully not bitter wine). 

Primary is sealed back up and giving me a "blub" ever 10 seconds, so... I'll check it again before bed. 

Life's good.


----------



## cpfan

jgmann67 said:


> I'm still having an internal debate on sulphites and sorbates. Leaning yes- follow the directions to the bitter end (hopefully not bitter wine).


Sorry to hear about your hydrometer. I've broken a LOT of hydrometers, as I ran a small Ferment on Premises for a while. One tip that I got from somewhere, don't wash/clean/rinse/whatever your hydrometer in VERY hot water, as it makes it more likely to break. Once I started paying attention to the water temp, I broke a lot fewer. Of course, dropping one, the water temp won't make a difference.

Re sulphites: IMHO, definitely use the small package that came with the kit. The optional sulphites that are probably mentioned in the instructions at bottling time can be omitted. And by the way, any extra package in the kit for adding post-fermentation is a sweetener.

Re sorbate: I don't seem to notice any taste from sorbate, but it can be left out if you ferment the wine to dry (.998 or less) and don't sweeten the wine. Just don't be like some people that I knew....get in the habit of tossing the sorbate when opening the kit, and later decide to sweeten without adding any sorbate. Result...popping corks, maybe exploding bottles.

Steve


----------



## jgmann67

The more i think about it the more I feel like I should just follow the directions on this first run. 

I've moved to warm water to "clean as I go" with equipment. Bottles, on the other hand = clean them with water hot as I can stand.


----------



## jgmann67

Day 4 - 

I stirred the must first thing this morning. Smells even better than it did on Day 2. Interesting, the sock-o-grapeskins was floating around like a marshmallow in cocoa. I squished and squeezed it... Still a little buoyant. Stirred the must for a couple minutes and snapped the lid and airlock back on. I know... I don't need to, but that's what the directions said to do.

Lots of yeast action going on. Airlock blubbing every second or two. 

I opened the door to the wine room, along with all the doors in the basement. The must is 69* and running a cube heater in there seems counter-intuitive (the money I save making my own wine being spent on running a glorified hair dryer to keep it the same temp as my wife's office... Just silly). 

Questions of the day:

Does the Sorbate really give the wine a bubblegum taste that won't fade for a year or so? Since I like my reds dry... And not bubblegummy at all... I remain in a constant state of internal struggle on this issue.


----------



## cmason1957

I don't taste bubblegum when I have used sorbate. I no longer put it in to my dry reds, use it or don't it isn't worth thinking about for more than a few minutes. I believe kit manufacturers include it with a dry red as protection that the user misread the hydrometer.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> I don't taste bubblegum when I have used sorbate. I no longer put it in to my dry reds, use it or don't it isn't worth thinking about for more than a few minutes. I believe kit manufacturers include it with a dry red as protection that the user misread the hydrometer.




Thanks. I'm using this thread like some sort of cathartic journal. Keeping track of what I do and asking questions along the way. Hopefully, it's a fun read in the end and I get useful input (like yours) along the way. 

As with most things I do for the first time, I'm thinking too much, wrestling with direction and the need to be sure I know what I'm doing. 

I probably won't make up my mind until the last second and I'm standing at the carboy with an open package of potassium sorbate in my hand.


----------



## jgmann67

Day 5 - things I learned this morning... Do NOT try to lift the sock-o-grapeskins out of the must by wrapping the end of the sock around the stir spoon. Bad, splashy things happen. Took 15 minutes to clean up the spatter.

Temp is around 67-68* in the bucket. The SG gives me a little pause as it's only around 1.088. I'm hoping that picks up in the next few days. I'm scheduled to move it the secondary this weekend. But at this rate, more likely on Tuesday-Wednesday. Wish I could get it warmer down there without running the space heater. 

Will pulling the top off and letting more oxygen in accelerate the ferment? This is another "directions" vs. experience. The directions say snap on the lid and attach the bubbler, but a lot of folks on this forum say, it doesn't matter.


----------



## bkisel

Both the old instructions and the new on-line instuctions read the same... [Step 9 in old instructions and 11 in new instructions.]

11. Place cover (or lid with Airlock and Rubber Bung) onto Primary Fermenter. If Airlock and bung are used, fill the Airlock half-full of water.

I believe most, but certainly not all, of us choose not to airlock during "primary" fermentation.

I've done it both ways, kits without grape packs, and don't, _*from my experience*_, think it makes a dimes worth of difference so long has you've given the must a real good stirring before pitching the yeast and air locking.


----------



## jgmann67

bkisel said:


> Both the old instructions and the new on-line instuctions read the same... [Step 9 in old instructions and 11 in new instructions.]
> 
> 11. Place cover (or lid with Airlock and Rubber Bung) onto Primary Fermenter. If Airlock and bung are used, fill the Airlock half-full of water.
> 
> I believe most, but certainly not all, of us choose not to airlock during "primary" fermentation.
> 
> I've done it both ways, kits without grape packs, and don't, _*from my experience*_, think it makes a dimes worth of difference so long has you've given the must a real good stirring before pitching the yeast and air locking.




Thanks. I stirred it really well initially. I also revisited and stirred three times since I started. I'm guessing the SG would be lower if the room and fermenter were a little warmer. Guess we'll see what happens.


----------



## jgmann67

I did the math this morning. The must is about 3.7% alcohol. After giving it a vigorous stir, I sealed it back up and the airlock is thumping like crazy. Still thinking we're not moving to the secondary till Tuesday.


----------



## joeswine

*In the bag*

LOOK, this is just my oppion, if your in a open container and the_ fpac_ is in a sock (which I can't see using) and the bentonite is first, second is your yeast then your reading moving to the addition of oak and then the fpac, leaving the lid off is the most effective way of having a complete mix,constantly stirring up the must isn't apart of the venue it defeats the purpose of the bentonite in the beginning, that's if I followed your format correctly? I have been known to be incorrect.


----------



## jgmann67

So, if I'm reading you right, Joe - you're saying that it doesn't much matter - lid on, lid off, stir, don't stir... The must will ferment in its own time and it's ready when it's ready. That about right? 

The SG is about 1.06 now. It's early in day 7. Yep, Tuesday night, maybe Wednesday is moving day to the secondary.


----------



## Dhaynes

Jgmann67 -You're a man after my own heart. I went through all the same stuff you are when we first started, reading everything I could find, watching every YouTube video and fretting over every decision. What I eventually came to understand is that most of the time it doesn't matter very much. There are usually several different ways to do each step, each of which have ardent supporters that will argue to the death to prove their way is best but in the end most of the approaches work reasonably well. The differences usually come down to opinions and personal preferences. 

For example: Snapping down the lid and using an airlock. This is absolutely the safest most sure fire way to get through the primary fermentation stage in good shape. It provides the best protection against outside contaminants. Fruit flies can't get in. Microbes can't get in. If the dog or the kid walks by they can't cause a spill if they bump into it, nor can they reach over and take a drink or toss in a toy. 

The downside of using an airlock is that in the first few days of fermentation some batches can be very active and foamy to the point that some of the wine can blow out through the airlock and make a mess. We've had maybe 1 out of 6 kits that had a minor problem with this and got a little crud in the airlock or on the lid. We've only had one that went full on geyser and sprayed everything in a 3 foot radius. Some people opt to leave the airlock out for the first few days and just cover the opening with a cloth or something that will let the CO2 pass but keep most contaminates out. If you get some foam being forced out it won't be under a lot of pressure so no wine volcano.

Other people like to just cover the top with a cloth, open it up every day to see how things are going, take an SG reading and play with their wine by giving it a good stir. The theory being that this provides the yeast with more oxygen which will help it reproduce better thereby causing the yeast less stress that can produce off flavors. Some people swear that this produces better wine but I think it is just a good excuse to play with your wine  

In reality all of these approaches seem to work just fine. During active fermentation a lot of CO2 glass is being given off which is heavier than oxygen so it will settle on top of the wine forcing the oxygen out of the bucket and produce a productive "blanket" that will shield the wine from the air above.

The thing to keep in mind is that the kit manufacturer has made each one of the kits they sell probably hundreds of times before they ever release it for sale. They have tweaked their process and instructions to maximize each kit makers chances for success. They have a reason for each recommendation and they certainly would not incur extra expense by including anything in the kit that they didn't think was necessary. A beginning winemaker would be wise to follow the instructions as close as possible in order to maximize their odds for success. I'm sure that the kit manufactures may on occasion recommend the safest course of action over a more risky course that might produce a minor incremental improvement in the final taste. But honestly, a beginning winemaker probably doesn't have a sophisticated enough pallet to taste the difference. Just be diligent about keeping everything clean and sanitized, minimize exposure to oxygen after the first few days and follow the kit instructions and you will make a good batch of wine. Then as you gain more experience you can start to make tweaks to see if you can improve the results. At least that's my philosophy. 


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


----------



## jgmann67

Thank you, DHaynes. 

I'm glad it's not just a "me" thing. I'm going to try to be patient and follow the directions. Just want this batch to knock my socks off. It will do great things to justify the hobby to the domestic finance manager, if ya know what I mean.


----------



## jgmann67

It's day 8. The fermentation seems to have slowed (slow blubbing, no foam). But the SG is 1.048. Temp seems to be around 66* in the must. I'm concerned that the low temp has stalled the process. 

I'm going to introduce a few degrees of heat via a heating pad, set on LOW for half a day and see what happens. Will track temps every couple hours.


----------



## jgmann67

Temp up 1.5*. Signs of fermentation returning. I'm going to guess the pad will push the temp to about 73*.


----------



## jgmann67

SG at 1.042. Must temp is 70*. 

Yep, Tuesday at best.


----------



## jgmann67

Monday morning. Day 9. Must temp is steady at 70*. SG dropped a little more. Now at 1.032.

Unlikely that tomorrow is moving day... Maybe Wednesday. 

The instructions say primary ferm should be between 68 and 78*. Lower temp = slower fermentation. I'm going to put up a chart that tracks both temp and SG over time., just to see what that looks like. Then use it as comparison with future batches. 

Observations: There isn't a lot of CO2 fizz until I open it up to check SG and give it a stir. Then, it gives me a nice show. Starting to smell less like grape juice and more like wine.

*** The chart isn't terribly interesting, except the first 5 days were slow and that increasing must temp a few degrees has kept the ferment steady.


----------



## jgmann67

Down to 1.029 SG last night. Checking again in a bit. 

Hoping I don't hit 1.000 or below late in the week. Didn't budget time to futz with it.


----------



## jgmann67

SG this morning = 1.024. Moving. Slowly. Ever downward. We're at a respectable 10.1% ABV and the temp is 72*. It smells pretty damned good, too.

I backed off the heating pad for today. I want to keep it in the 70-72* range. I've been taking the SG readings after stirring the must and releasing the CO2. I wonder if that makes any difference. 

I wonder, too, if I had to leave the project until Sunday if that might cause any issues. I mean, if it ferments down to a .992 SG, is there any risk in letting it sit a couple days till I can get back to it?

Okay. Time to get cleaned up and go to that job thing. See you later this evening for another reading. If I get to 1.015 by tonight, I'll be a very happy camper.


----------



## Boatboy24

Patience. You're doing fine. If it takes until Sunday, well then it takes until Sunday.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Patience. You're doing fine. If it takes until Sunday, well then it takes until Sunday.




As long as it keeps going in the right direction, I'm happy.

My Before bed check on the project:

SG - 1.02

Temp - 70*


----------



## jgmann67

Readings after this morning's stir:

SG: 1.015 (11.4% ABV)

Temp: 71*

Smells good.


----------



## JohnT

Seems like it is progressing nicely.


----------



## jgmann67

JohnT said:


> Seems like it is progressing nicely.




It is. I was a little surprised with the smell. All of the videos I watched made a big to-do about the aroma of the juice pouring in to the primary. I could smell it, sure. But, it didn't knock me out. Now, 11 days in, I really smell it. Hours after stirring, the smell is still with me. Like, it's taken up residence in my sinus cavity.


----------



## jgmann67

Day 14 - the last I looked, the must was progressing nicely.

SG: 1.010

Temp: 70* F. 

The SG is probably around the 1.004 mark now. We're almost there. 

This morning, I had the heating pad shut off and am going to let the temp drop to about 66*... Coasting in to the 0.992 by Sunday night.


----------



## jgmann67

Headed home from Chicago. Will check the project once I get in.


----------



## Dhaynes

Looks like you are doing great. One thing to keep in mind is that you are going to want to warm the wine to the mid 70's before you degas. It's a lot harder to get the CO2 out if the wine is cold. Also the yeast don't really like the temperature yo-yoing on them. It can cause the yeast to go dormant or die leading to stuck fermentation.


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making


----------



## jgmann67

Cleaned and Sanitized the carboy, siphon, bung and bubbler this morning and went down to check on the project.

Surprised to find the SG was 1.002. I would have thought it would be somewhere in the 0.99's. Temp was 65* as expected. Guess the abundance of caution didn't pay off as expected. (Sigh....)

Since the wine needs to be warmer to degas anyway, I put it back together and put the heating pad back on 'low'. Still getting some ferment action. The temp will rise to about 68-70* during the day and hopefully the SG will drop another 0.005 when I get back to it tonight. Will try to rack it into the secondary when I get home. 

Found the lid on my primary split on the side. Fine for now, but, when the crack goes a bit higher, I won't get a good seal anymore. Is this common or should I talk to the vendor? 

* talked to the vendor. They do not stand behind their product. Will check w the manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure I won't be dealing with the vendor anymore. Too bad...


----------



## jgmann67

Got home tonight to a 0.998 SG. SOooooooo... Into the secondary we go. I just couldn't wait any more. 

Everything is cleaned up and put away. 

Total time in the primary was about 16 days. Lots of lees at the bottom of the primary. Dumped the pectin stuff, stirred for 5 min. Topped off, capped and placed the bubbler. Now we wait till the weekend. Temp will be fairly constant 70-71*. 

Yes, I tasted it... I now know what the phrase "young" really means. I did like it, though. Good fruit taste - I could tell I was drinking a cab. When I'm done clearing, I'm thinking medium toast French oak spirals or chips for 3 or 4 months. Then, bottle and wait another 4 months.


----------



## jgmann67

The wine sat overnight and there's a bit of foam in the airlock. It's working fine so I'm not concerned and really don't want to disturb it. Although I could swap it out if necessary.


----------



## bkisel

Did your instructions say to top off in "secondary"?

Personally I do not top off when going from "primary" to "secondary". Most often my head space in secondary is at ~ the shoulder height of my 6.5 gallon Italian glass carboy. The CO2 still being produced and filling the head space, albeit now more slowly, has been enough to displace the air and protect the wine till it ferments dry and is ready for the next phase.


----------



## jgmann67

bkisel said:


> Did your instructions say to top off in "secondary"?
> 
> Personally I do not top off when going from "primary" to "secondary". Most often my head space in secondary is at ~ the shoulder height of my 6.5 gallon Italian glass carboy. The CO2 still being produced and filling the head space, albeit now more slowly, has been enough to displace the air and protect the wine till it ferments dry and is ready for the next phase.



Yes, it did. It said fill within two inches of the top of the carboy. there's maybe a half inch of space between the liquid and the stopper.


----------



## winojoe

Here is my process, which works out very well for me:
1. Perform Primary fermentation in a bucket. 
2. Rack to 6.5 gallon carboy for final fermentation when SG is between 1.010 and 1.020.
3. When fermentation is complete(wine is "still") wait one week for completed fermentation to stabilize.
4. When the one week is up, move to another 6.5 gallon carboy, add stabilizers and clearing agent(s), and wait one week.
5. When the week is up, do one of two things:
a. For aging, rack gently to 6 gallon carboy and top up to reduce air space as much as possible.
b. For sweet wines (I call them Foo Foo's) rack gently to a vessel for immediate bottling.


----------



## jgmann67

I'm going to let this one ferment out to 0.992 and clear. Once I'm done clearing and rack it to another carboy, pour in the stabilizers, etc., then drop some oak (French medium toast, I think), to enhance the favor a bit. Other suggestions are welcome, of course.


----------



## bkisel

jgmann67 said:


> Yes, it did. It said fill within two inches of the top of the carboy. there's maybe a half inch of space between the liquid and the stopper.



Aha! RJS CC WS instructions have changed! My Italy Amarone with box date of 20140415 (and all the RJS WS kits I've done before) have older instructions then what I now see online. Older instructions had you start "secondary" @ 1.020 and no topping up.


----------



## jgmann67

bkisel said:


> Aha! RJS CC WS instructions have changed! My Italy Amarone with box date of 20140415 (and all the RJS WS kits I've done before) have older instructions then what I now see online. Older instructions had you start "secondary" @ 1.020 and no topping up.




Tell me about your Amarone. I'm fighting the urge to make this wine as my #3 batch for the year because it takes so much aging till it's ready. I don't know if I can wait that long. Then again, the sooner I start, the doner I get.


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

WHEN made correctly this is truly the king of ITALIAN reds.................................................

*Wineexpert Amarone*​

**UPDATED**​​
Here is our kit that we received from Wineexpert. This kit is a Wineexpert Selection Series Amarone. This kit has the following included. (This list is a little different from the usual kit that you receive. This is a top of the line kit.)

*The box includes the following: *
· Large bag of juice
· Grape skin pack (You can actually see that there are grape skins in it!)
· 2 packs of Lavin RC-212
· 2 Chaptalisation Packs (bags of sugar)
· Package #2 (bentonite)
· Package #3 (Metabisulphite)
· Package #4 (Sorbate)
· Package #5 (Chitosan-(Fining Agent)
· Mesh Straining Bag
· 3 Packages of European Hungarian Oak
*Just for reference, I’m sure everyone knows by now if they have been following the posts, that you will need certain equipment to make this kit. For the newbies, I’m going to put it below so you know what you need:*
· Primary Fermenter (minimum 30 Litres/7.9 US gallons capacity)
· Long stirring spoon (Plastic or stainless steel)
· Measuring cup
· Hydrometer and test jar
· Thermometer
· Wine thief
· Siphon rod and hose 
· Carboy (6 US gallon capacity)
· Bung and Air lock
· Solid Bung (if you are bulk aging)
· Unscented winemaking detergent for cleaning (we recommend Onestep or any other oxygenating cleaner, including Kmet....JUST NOT BLEACH!)
· Metabisulphite Powder for sanitizing 
· 30 wine bottles, thirty corks , thirty seals
· Corking machine (there are various types, we use an italian floor corker.)
*The Process:*
· As always, sanitize anything that comes in contact with the wine. Including yourself. J
· Add half gallon of warm water to the primary fermenting bucket with the bentonite packet and stir until dissolved.
· Add the large juice package. (Be careful, it’s heavy!) Rinse this out with a little bit of spring water to make sure you get it all. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, we take the SG reading. We’re at 1.10. 
· Next, we added the smaller “grape skin packet”. It’s lumpy so you also want to rinse the bag out w/ water also, to get all the grape skins.
· Now, here comes all that Hungarian oak! We are adding 3 packets of Hungarian powdered oak (wow!). 
· Here comes the fun part. YEAST! 2 packets of RC-212 yeast. Cover with a towel and wait 5-7 days, gently punching down the grape skins. 
*Secondary Fermentation:*
Now that we fermented dry (SG reading is 1.010), now it’s time to rack it. 
Notice the grape skins on top? This is the cap that formed from the grape skin packet that was provided in the Wineexpert Amarone Kit, along with the addition of California Raisins (that I added to add more body). 
We racked this down to a carboy but it is pretty gassy. I’m going to let this settle out for a few days and degas some on its own. Over the weekend, I will force-gas it (If I have to) by giving it a good old-fashioned stir. Once I feel that it’s de-gassed enough, I will stabilize it with the potassium sorbate packet, K-Met Packet, and packet of Chitosan (clearing agent). 


UPDATE:​
We finished bottling our super-awesome, Winexpert Selection International Amarone Kit. We are quite happy with the results. Our end result is a dark, inky-color, rich, full bodied, wine. It has a spicy-earthy, sour cherry aroma, dried fruit, bitter almond, from the huge volume of tannins. 

For a kit wine that started just 2 1/2 months ago, the results are quite impressive. (We started this kit on August 22, 2013. We bottled tonight, 10/24/2013. After doing this kit, we would def. recommend this one for any true Italian red-wine drinker. 

We would like to thank Winexpert for giving us the opportunity to present one of their finest wine kits they have available. We would definitely recommend this kit to the novice and experienced winemakers alike as it truly is exceptional. 

We are looking forward to our next tutorial now that this one is complete. Please give us feedback and recommendations of what type of wine you would like to learn how to make.


----------



## bkisel

jgmann67 said:


> Tell me about your Amarone. I'm fighting the urge to make this wine as my #3 batch for the year because it takes so much aging till it's ready. I don't know if I can wait that long. Then again, the sooner I start, the doner I get.



Mine is bulk aging. It is my first Amarone and can only say that I've read and heard others speaking favorably of this particular kit.

At the point where it says to bottle in the instructions I bulk age my 6-week kits for 3 months and bottle age for three months before starting to consume. As recommended by several folks on this site I've started to hold a bottle or two back to age even further. At about seven and a half months, if it is like the other RJS WS kits I've made, it will be ready enough for my taste. I'm too old (I'll be 71 in August) to wait years for any of my wines to fully mature - save the bottle or two from the batch that I've been encouraged here to set aside. Also, I believe the kits are designed to taste reasonably well on the time frame indicated on the instructions.


----------



## joeswine

*AMARONE King OF THE ITALIAN REDS*

I agree with you BKISEL,that's why I switch from grspes to fresh juice and now kits, TIME IS IMPORTANT.......................


----------



## jgmann67

Day 3 in the secondary. 

The wine is clearing very nicely. I can see the sediment at the bottom, it's about 1.5" deep. Fascinating to look at - the wine is a brighter hue. Temp has been a constant 71* (and there's a nice barrier of lees now between heating pad and the wine). I'm going to check the SG tomorrow night. If I reach the 0.992, I'll be moving it over for stabilizing, etc. I can't wait to get another taste.

I picked up a package of medium toast French oak chips. The guy at the LHBS suggested I take about an ounce of chips, soak them in hot water, then place them in the carboy for the 3 months in a bag. I'll decide once I see what I have at 0.992.

Amarone... kit #3. Then, if the #2 kit (Aussie chard) works out, I might do another white as kit #4. 

(hmmm... that would be like 10 cases of wine, wouldn't it?)


----------



## bkisel

joeswine said:


> I agree with you BKISEL,that's why I switch from grspes to fresh juice and now kits, TIME IS IMPORTANT.......................



That is so very interesting. It appears that progression is just the opposite of most. 

Your posting of your tweaking kits has inspired me to try a bit of tweaking on a number of my own kits. All have come out great and I thank you for that.


----------



## Brian55

jgmann67 said:


> (hmmm... that would be like 10 cases of wine, wouldn't it?)



That's only a four month supply at a bottle per day..


----------



## jgmann67

Omg, you're right!!! Must make more!


----------



## heatherd

The first time I made wine, I thought, "What am I going to do with 30 bottles?" But that doesn't last very long in the cellar.

Then I made two batches at once and thought, "What am I going to do with 60 bottles?" That doesn't really last that long, either. We give wine as gifts and of course drink a little of it. 

I have been in the basement looking at what's left from my first year, and there's very little. If it was good, it's gone. I have saved one bottle of everything I have done to date.

Heather


----------



## jgmann67

Checked the secondary tonight - Day 4 in the secondary. The wine is clearing well. The temp is a steady 71*. About my only concern is that the SG hasn't changed much. It's about 0.999. Not bad, but I'd like it down around 0.994. 

I'm going to leave it be for a another week and see what happens. Is there anything I can do to kick the ferment up a little?

Had a glass tonight. Can't help think this is going to be a good one.


----------



## jgmann67

Four days later, the SG and temp is still about the same. 0.998-ish @ 71*. 

So let's say I get to the weekend and it's still the same. Is it reasonable to say fermentation is done and I should just move on to the next step?


----------



## RCGoodin

winojoe said:


> Here is my process, which works out very well for me:
> 1. Perform Primary fermentation in a bucket.
> 2. Rack to 6.5 gallon carboy for final fermentation when SG is between 1.010 and 1.020.
> 3. When fermentation is complete(wine is "still") wait one week for completed fermentation to stabilize.
> 4. When the one week is up, move to another 6.5 gallon carboy, add stabilizers and clearing agent(s), and wait one week.
> 5. When the week is up, do one of two things:
> a. For aging, rack gently to 6 gallon carboy and top up to reduce air space as much as possible.
> b. For sweet wines (I call them Foo Foo's) rack gently to a vessel for immediate bottling.



I would think there would be a mention of not topping up to 2" because you need some room for degassing. You should degas before clearing and topping. Just trying to think out loud for everyone. Other thoughts?


----------



## jgmann67

The manufacturer's CSR said to give it a good stir and increase temp to 75*. Now we wait.


----------



## winojoe

The 6.5 gallon carboy offers enough room for degassing. But, you are correct, I did not mention it. Good catch!


----------



## jgmann67

Two days later, our SG is a little shy of 0.996. I can wait a little while longer. =)

Another stir, another two days.

*** checked again before bed. not sure how this is possible, but SG is back up to 0.998. This is getting a little aggravating.


----------



## jgmann67

Dosed with 4.5 tsp of fermax today. Let's see if this gets us home.


----------



## RCGoodin

jgmann67 said:


> Dosed with 4.5 tsp of fermax today. Let's see if this gets us home.



I think we all went through what you're going through. It's somewhat comforting to re-live it through you. Thanks for keeping us updated.

I remember my first batch was a Stags Leap Mertlot and after I bottled it, I said to my wife this stuff is ready to drink. I got back on this forum and asked the others how could I ever wait 2 years before drinking it? Their answers was "keep making more" and so I did. I still have several bottles of that Merlot and it's great. Right now I have 24 gallons of Chardonnay aging in carboys for about 18 months. As soon as I bottle this batch, I have an Eclipse Cab, red Zin and a strawberry port to get started.

I wish you the best on your first batch and encourage you to get ready for the next one.

I suggest you look into buying the All-In-One pump, a floor standing corker, a bunch of various sized fermenting buckets and carboys, and possibly Buon filtering system......It all makes the hobby a little easier.


----------



## jgmann67

Thanks, RC. 

I'm wrestling between the stags leap merlot and an Amarone as my next batch of wine. Then, I'm going to do an island mist peach Chardonnay and bump up the alcohol %. I'm enjoying the hobby a lot. 

Keeping my eye open for a floor corker. Need two or three more carboys and another ferment bucket. A friend has a filter that I'm going to look into borrowing. 

I keep seeing the all-in-one pump. I need to check that out.


----------



## ceeaton

Jim,

I just ordered a floor corker. It's somewhere on a truck in the middle of the country and is due to be delivered the middle of next week. You are more than welcome to try it out once I get it, I just ask that I get to use it once myself.


----------



## jgmann67

You're on, Craig.


----------



## jgmann67

Over the weekend, I fed it just a little more and gave it another good stir. More CO2 released, but all under control this time. I went to marvel at my projects this morning and the airlock on the cab gave me a blub. I had to smile. 

Probably going to leave it a few days, maybe Wednesday will be moving day. 

Interesting to compare the RJS Cab to the WE Chard. 

Once it's done in the secondary, the RJS Cab needs to be racked, leaving the rough lees behind. Then add KMeta and clarifier/fining agents. Degas and wait.

With the WE Chard, after 10 days, check SG. THEN, add KMeta and fining agents. They want all the lees at the bottom stirred back up into the carboy. Degas and let it sit another week or so before racking into a new carboy.


----------



## jgmann67

I think today is going to be moving day for the cab.


----------



## wineinmd

What did it end up at? 

I've been following the thread and haven't quite figured out how you came up with a target FG. Did the kit instructions specify?


----------



## jgmann67

wineinmd said:


> What did it end up at?
> 
> 
> 
> I've been following the thread and haven't quite figured out how you came up with a target FG. Did the kit instructions specify?




Provided it's below 0.996, I'm moving forward. According to some, the RJS reds struggle to go below 0.998. The kit says "below 1.000". I'd just like it to go dry as possible.


----------



## cmason1957

If your SG is still changing, even just a little bit, I would wait until you get the same reading three days in a row. That way you are fairly certain it is as low as it is going to ferment. I doubt if you will be able to detect the difference is 0.998 and 0.996, so I would not worry so much about the absolute value.


----------



## jgmann67

cmason1957 said:


> If your SG is still changing, even just a little bit, I would wait until you get the same reading three days in a row. That way you are fairly certain it is as low as it is going to ferment. I doubt if you will be able to detect the difference is 0.998 and 0.996, so I would not worry so much about the absolute value.




That day came and went a week ago. I haven't checked it since feeding a little nutrient over the weekend. But up to that point, the need hasn't moved much if at all.


----------



## cmason1957

jgmann67 said:


> That day came and went a week ago. I haven't checked it since feeding a little nutrient over the weekend. But up to that point, the need hasn't moved much if at all.



Nutrient this late in the ferment probably wasn't the best thing you could do. The yeast aren't going to use it, probably. 

I know the directions don't indicate this, but I leave it for about 21 days and never bother checking the SG. It gets down to whatever it gets down to.


----------



## jgmann67

Well, there was no change at all. So, we moved on. It's going to sit for 3 months now.

The one thing I didn't think to do was to try a different hydrometer and see if the reading is different. But, it actually tasted pretty decent. So, I feel like moving on was the best option. 


Worked the wine with a drill for a good while to release any remaining CO2 (not much happened, though). Dosed with KMeta and the liquid clearing agents. I deviated from the directions a bit. I skipped the Sorbate, and added 2 oz. of medium toast French oak chips in a sock. I nuked some hot water in a cup and let the chips soak for about 15 min, then placed the chips (and poured the remaining oak tea) in the carboy; sealed it up and moved it from the work table. 

The silty lees at the bottom of the carboy were pretty thick. 

What I learned tonight : When you're moving wine, you should keep a close eye on the end of the siphon hose else half a bottle will spill on the floor. Oops.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> What I learned tonight : When you're moving wine, you should keep a close eye on the end of the siphon hose else half a bottle will spill on the floor. Oops.



Been there, done that. When pumping the auto-siphon, the hose may or may not have been pulled right out of the carboy, resulting in racking from carboy to floor.  Not a concern anymore, now that I have an AI1.


----------



## jgmann67

I went down to marvel at my handiwork when I got home tonight. Only another 89 days to go.... "The suspense is killing me - I hope it lasts." (Extra points if you know the movie and character).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Jim,
> 
> I just ordered a floor corker. It's somewhere on a truck in the middle of the country and is due to be delivered the middle of next week. You are more than welcome to try it out once I get it, I just ask that I get to use it once myself.



Craig - along the "I have serious impulse control issues" line... I picked up a Portuguese floor corker this afternoon off of craigslist. Looks and acts like brand new.


----------



## ceeaton

The one I ordered was the Burgundy version of the Portuguese Floor corker. Nice and heavy. Was just under $80 delivered. Haven't figured out which corks I'm going to settle on. Bought 30 1 3/4" First Quality corks and the same size Nomacorks. Recorked a few open bottles in the fridge to annoy my wife, but I haven't done a whole batch yet. I assume you got a good deal off of Craig's list.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> The one I ordered was the Burgundy version of the Portuguese Floor corker. Nice and heavy. Was just under $80 delivered. Haven't figured out which corks I'm going to settle on. Bought 30 1 3/4" First Quality corks and the same size Nomacorks. Recorked a few open bottles in the fridge to annoy my wife, but I haven't done a whole batch yet. I assume you got a good deal off of Craig's list.




$40, like new. Fairly heavy. Still has the tag on it.


----------



## jgmann67

Visited my wine this morning and noticed that the oak lost its buoyancy last night. There's a soggy oak sock at the bottom of the carboy (near as I can tell... can't really see through the wine quite yet, I just know it's not floating at the top anymore).

It looks outstanding and I want to taste it in the worst way. But, I'm going completely hands off for at least two months (and more likely three, then rack, dose with kmeta and bottle if it's clear).


----------



## jgmann67

It's been a while since I posted an update. 

The carboy has some sediment at the bottom, but nothing like the prior racking. It's a deep purple in color and it's impossible to see through to the other side of the carboy. I can hold the iPhone flashlight up on the other side and it looks like a dim LED Christmas light. 

The sock o' oak is gone from my view. Guessing it's just sitting at the bottom. 

Other than checking the air lock, there's nothing to do but wait... And make more wine.


----------



## jgmann67

Good grief, this wine looks good. Sediment on the bottom is about 1/2" deep. The wine is a constant 61*. 

Btw - after the spillage incident, I topped it off with a left bank Bordeaux.


----------



## ceeaton

Jim, I think your cellar is infested by wine genies. I see one taking a picture of you in that carboy. Either that or it is giving you a strange hand gesture. I hope they are friendly and don't drink too much of your wine.


----------



## jgmann67

Them wine genies is everywhere.


----------



## jgmann67

I thiefed a taste tonight. Young, acidic and a little sweet.


----------



## jgmann67

Doing pretty well this. A snort of a taste and it's actually quite good considering it's still got another month or so in the carboy and 6 months in a bottle on a shelf before I think about digging in.


----------



## jgmann67

This one has been in finishing since 4/7. Six weeks have gone by and I'm itching to bottle it. I may be able to restrain myself for another 2 weeks. But, don't think I'm going to make it to July (the original plan for bottling). 

I can see the sock o' oak at the bottom - it's laying against the one side. At 6 weeks, I'm thinking I got all the benefit I can out of it. 

I do not plan to tweak this wine any more than I have. What do I lose by bottling on the weekend of June 7th instead of July 7th? Also, dose w/KMeta before bottling?


----------



## cmason1957

Yes, add kmeta a day or so before bottling. You lose whatever magic that can happen in bulk, but not in a bottle and that does exist. As a point of reference, I have some kits bulk adding for 9 months to 2 years. It does smooth them out and mature them.


----------



## wineinmd

jgmann67 said:


> This one has been in finishing since 4/7. Six weeks have gone by and I'm itching to bottle it. I may be able to restrain myself for another 2 weeks. But, don't think I'm going to make it to July (the original plan for bottling).
> 
> I can see the sock o' oak at the bottom - it's laying against the one side. At 6 weeks, I'm thinking I got all the benefit I can out of it.
> 
> I do not plan to tweak this wine any more than I have. What do I lose by bottling on the weekend of June 7th instead of July 7th? Also, dose w/KMeta before bottling?


Why are you anxious to move it at this point? Are you trying to free up a carboy?


----------



## jgmann67

No. Just REALLY want to see this in the bottle on a shelf. It's an unfinished project till it is.


----------



## wineinmd

jgmann67 said:


> No. Just REALLY want to see this in the bottle on a shelf. It's an unfinished project till it is.


Hide the carboy and put the empty bottles you plan to use on the shelf for now. It really isn't a finished project until the wine is ready to drink anyway, no? 

Fast forward to drinking time and ask yourself if you'd rather have the magical benefits of bulk aging or the long-since passed gratification of bottling sooner.


----------



## ehammonds

Break the bottles. You can replace them in six months. I know it's hard, I bottled my first batch at about two months. I'm wishing I had waited. Now I try to bulk 4-6 months, followed by barrel, currently 3 months, then bottle age at least 3 months.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> No. Just REALLY want to see this in the bottle on a shelf. It's an unfinished project till it is.



Jim, I feel and share your pain. I've got eight carboys full of wine, some have been aging for close to four months. I have four batches bottled and want to get so many bottled that I have to work on someplace to store it all.

We are trying to attain the joy of not having to go to our PA State imposed liquor store to pick up a bottle of wine, unless we want to go. Neither of us has been making wine for a year, so please cut us some slack. I know you all have the best intentions, but sometimes a person has to learn a lesson by experiencing it (ie. the hard way), not hearing about it. We will both eventually have batches (for me it's the Merlot bucket I just did) that will hang out for 12 months+ until we get around to bottling it.


----------



## Kraffty

Ceeaton, what you say is true, no matter the advice, everyone learns from experience, BUT I can say I wish I'd followed a little more advice when I started out. I suggested this to someone a while back who was eager to bottle a nice kit and maybe it would be worth a try.

Rack down to a 5 gal carboy and 4 or 5 wine bottles. Cork the bottles and store them for 2 or 3 months. At that time check the bottles for how much sediment has fallen and decide if it's acceptable or not. Best of both worlds and a chance to pick up a little more first hand experience. Sounds like it's a pretty nice batch of wine so far.
Mike


----------



## ceeaton

I see what you mean. I was in a rush to bottle my first batch (a weak Raspberry/White grape Welches) and I now have to re-bottle off the sediment if we give any away.

I like the idea of going from a 6 gallon to a 5 gallon carboy and bottling 4 or 5 bottles. Gives me a taste while the rest bulk ages. I have let a few go 4 months so far. I've gotta clean some bottles before I bottle those anyway. And lately with the yard work starting to pile up the bottle cleaning has slipped down the priority list. Maybe I'll take a 1/2 day today and go home and catch up on the yard work so I can later "play" with my wine.

I know that the reds I'm making will be a minimum of 6 months bulk aging if not longer. The whites seem to be clearing and ready to bottle a little sooner, especially if it is a kit with clarifiers. As we keep more and more of the wine (wife and I getting a selfish streak starting) I don't really care if I have to decant the wine.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I see what you mean. I was in a rush to bottle my first batch (a weak Raspberry/White grape Welches) and I now have to re-bottle off the sediment if we give any away.
> 
> I like the idea of going from a 6 gallon to a 5 gallon carboy and bottling 4 or 5 bottles. Gives me a taste while the rest bulk ages. I have let a few go 4 months so far. I've gotta clean some bottles before I bottle those anyway. And lately with the yard work starting to pile up the bottle cleaning has slipped down the priority list. Maybe I'll take a 1/2 day today and go home and catch up on the yard work so I can later "play" with my wine.
> 
> I know that the reds I'm making will be a minimum of 6 months bulk aging if not longer. The whites seem to be clearing and ready to bottle a little sooner, especially if it is a kit with clarifiers. As we keep more and more of the wine (wife and I getting a selfish streak starting) I don't really care if I have to decant the wine.



*The plan for the red: * The instructions said to let it clear in the carboy for 4 weeks and then bottle. So, I was going to have it sit for three months, rack, dose with KMeta, and then bottle. That would take me out to the first week of July.

I have a White, too (WE Selection Australian Chard). That was supposed to sit for two weeks in clearing then bottle, according to the instructions. But, it's been in the carboy with some French oak chips for a month now.


----------



## jgmann67

Okay, I think I figured a way to hold my water until I get to 3 months in the carboy. A taste tonight... Another in a few weeks, then one just before bottling. 

Green, but it's damned tasty.


----------



## jgmann67

It's been two months in the same carboy, so I figured I'd rack it into a glass 6 gal., remove it from the oak chips and degas it a bit in its last month of bulk aging. 

It's not all the way to the top (short about 200 ml). Always struggle with whether I shop top it off or leave it be.

I'll rack again in July, dose w KMeta, bottle and shelf the lot for a while. Maybe I'll open one every few months to see how it's coming along.


----------



## ceeaton

Well, did you sample any? Any noticeable difference from the last sample? Your 5-20 images sure looked good!


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Well, did you sample any? Any noticeable difference from the last sample? Your 5-20 images sure looked good!




Going to let it settle a little before tasting it. Next week.

I did a little with the wine saver last night and put it under a vacuum. Surprised at how much CO2 came to the surface after two months of sitting. 

Something I learned from racking from a glass carboy to a plastic one yesterday - the glass carboy is about 6.1 gallons. I got a full plastic carboy and two glasses of wine to enjoy (though, I used it to top the bottles).


----------



## jgmann67

Mmmmm. Tasty. With age will be very good!


----------



## jgmann67

I topped off the glass carboy last night with a Sonoma cab from the state store. Then degassed it for a few minutes. I'm going to continue these visits until it's time to rack, dose and bottle.


----------



## jgmann67

Been degassing 3x a day for a week or so now. Looks and tastes pretty much done. I'm going to let this sit till July 7th or beyond and bottle. 

I am very impressed with myself right now.


----------



## Boatboy24

jgmann67 said:


> Been degassing 3x a day for a week or so now. Looks and tastes pretty much done. I'm going to let this sit till July 7th or beyond and bottle.
> 
> I am very impressed with myself right now.



Degassing 3X a day!!?? You should be impressed with yourself. You've gone way above and beyond.


----------



## jgmann67

Boatboy24 said:


> Degassing 3X a day!!?? You should be impressed with yourself. You've gone way above and beyond.




I am! There's only about 3" of head space in the cab carboy. When I started, 10 pumps from the wine saver was enough vacuum to get the CO2 rolling. Now, I get to about 30 and get nothing but little bitty bubbles. 

I'm going to think on how to do this more efficiently (but still on the cheap) for the Merlot in August. But, for now, it's not that bad and gives me an excuse to work with the wine.


----------



## jgmann67

Interesting... Thiefed a taste out of the carboy the other day and shared it with 'She Who Must Be Obeyed.' She thought it was a little bitter, but generally good and fruity. I didn't taste the bitter as much. But, the wine is very young. Hoping the bitter fades with age.


----------



## ceeaton

Never really thought of sampling this early in the morning. Lot's of pros: cleaner palate, make my work day start off on a good note; cons: tryiing to explain to the boss man why I smell like a wino who just crawled out of the gutter.

Guess I could take a shower and brush my teeth for a change.


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Never really thought of sampling this early in the morning.




LOL. I edited the post to clarify - though, I'm not opposed to a glass of wine in the morning.


----------



## ceeaton

Our family rule at our cabin in Tioga County is 9 am is okay if cooking bacon outside that you are willing to share with others (the bacon, not the beer or wine).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> Our family rule at our cabin in Tioga County is 9 am is okay if cooking bacon outside that you are willing to share with others (the bacon, not the beer or wine).




Sounds reasonable.


----------



## sour_grapes

ceeaton said:


> Our family rule at our cabin in Tioga County is 9 am is okay if cooking bacon outside that you are willing to share with others (the bacon, not the beer or wine).



It must be 9 am _somewhere_ in the world!


----------



## jgmann67

A taste this weekend. The wine is somewhere between tart and sour at first, then the fruit hits you. Two weeks to bottling day.


----------



## ceeaton

Funny, my Diablo Rojo kit, much lower end than yours, gave me the same impression. I also noticed a sodium aftertaste. Now mine is only 5 weeks old and also not bottled, so I checked the used metabisuphate package to make sure it was potassium based and not sodium. Guessing that is what people here term as "kit taste".


----------



## ibglowin

No, Kit Taste (KT) is basically a sweet, sorta bubble like gum taste. Has nothing to do with sulfites of any type.


----------



## jgmann67

I'm going to chalk it up to youth.


----------



## ceeaton

ibglowin said:


> No, Kit Taste (KT) is basically a sweet, sorta bubble like gum taste. Has nothing to do with sulfites of any type.



So it's from sorbate if added?


----------



## ibglowin

That's one theory as well as the process they use to concentrate the juice and remove water.


----------



## cmason1957

And some people claim not to be able to tell. 

Personally, I think it is from comparing a relatively young wine, since kits are often consumed young, with a two or three year old wine. But I could be wrong.


(Dang old fat fingers that sometimes think they have better things to type than my brain tells them to type).


----------



## wineinmd

I wish my young kids took commands better.


----------



## jgmann67

Bottling this weekend. Can't wait.


----------



## barbiek

I found aging in carboy helps with the kit taste


----------



## jgmann67

Racking and dosing are done. On schedule.


----------



## jgmann67

Bottled this afternoon. A little short of 30 bottles ( mostly because of the glass I drank while bottling). They'll stand a day or so. Then capsule, label and tuck them in for three months or more till I touch it.


----------



## jgmann67

I see a habit forming.


----------



## jgmann67

I sacrificed a bottle over the last couple days. Surprised at how big it is. Adequately de gassed, but not very rounded at all. Hoping it mellows over the coming months. I'm going to let it sit till later in the fall before I try again.

I probably should have given this a "poof" test to be sure it was fully degassed. Next time...


----------



## jgmann67

Countdown to the next taste... I'm targeting mid November. I sacrificed a bottle to top off the Super Tuscan and the blend when I racked them off the oak (but, didn't take a taste of it for some reason). It smelled fantastic, though. I'm really looking forward to opening the next bottle.


----------



## jgmann67

We're having this cab with London broil tonight. I opened it up and poured a taste, then went to get another chair for the kitchen table. SWMBO was already tasting it. "Wow, this is really good." 

I agree - no KT, Great body, wonderful taste. Just think what it will be like in another year... Or two.


----------



## JohnT

AHHHH, so great to see others get that "accomplishment high" when things go right! 

Time to start thinking about the next batch. You will be surprised how fast that wine will go!

I really like the labels BTW!


----------



## jgmann67

JohnT said:


> AHHHH, so great to see others get that "accomplishment high" when things go right!
> 
> Time to start thinking about the next batch. You will be surprised how fast that wine will go!
> 
> I really like the labels BTW!



Already there. I've got 140 bottles from 2015 on the racks right now and am planning three wines in 2016 winter and spring - the Forza, the Bianca Luna and the Fortitude. By late spring and into summer, I'll probably do an Island Mist of some sort and another red (maybe the cab/merlot blend). 

And, thanks - I'm very happy with the presentation.


----------



## JohnT

jgmann67 said:


> Already there. I've got 140 bottles from 2015 on the racks right now and am planning three wines in 2016 winter and spring - the Forza, the Bianca Luna and the Fortitude. By late spring and into summer, I'll probably do an Island Mist of some sort and another red (maybe the cab/merlot blend).
> 
> And, thanks - I'm very happy with the presentation.


 
140 bottles! Awesome for your first year (I assume that it is your first year).


----------



## jgmann67

Yep - year one and I've done 6 kits so far. I may pull the trigger on three more kits this month. Lots of good deals to be had.


----------



## ceeaton

jgmann67 said:


> Yep - year one and I've done 6 kits so far. I may pull the trigger on three more kits this month. Lots of good deals to be had.



Have you been to the LHBS lately? Brad had a bunch of older kits marked down, some were about 11 mos old, and they were like 40% off or so. I got a WE SE Valpolicella (I think Valroza now) dirt cheap. They had another one of those, a Cab Sauv, one of those French mixes I can't pronounce or spell, and a bunch of Island Mist kits. Worth the trip if you have time since it's on your way home?


----------



## jgmann67

I haven't been there in a few weeks. I'll try to swing by tomorrow and see what they have for me. I could see a Valpolicello or the French red.


----------



## ceeaton

I think the Valpolicella had a January date. The French one was pretty old, but I think WE SE kits are good for at least 18 months. If I'm wrong someone please correct me (Peter?).


----------



## jgmann67

ceeaton said:


> I think the Valpolicella had a January date. The French one was pretty old, but I think WE SE kits are good for at least 18 months. If I'm wrong someone please correct me (Peter?).




If you don't mind, can you private message me what they're charging for out of date/older kits.


----------



## DryFly

Hello fellow Winemakers! I'm pumped I found this thread. I am starting the Grand Cru Austrailian Cabernet Sauvignon tomorrow. This is my first one so I am planning on following the instructions. However, after reading this forum, and this thread, I realize there are certain tweaks I can make to enhance the final product. 

Does anyone have any additional input on this kit or similar kits? Thanks in advance! I know I will benefit greatly from your additional insight.


----------



## Dhaynes

Not sure if you meant that this was you first kit ever or just the first one of this particular kit. Unless you have at least a few kits under your belt, I would highly recommend that you stick to the ingredients that came in the kit and follow the instructions exactly. There are several reasons for this: 1) Unless you have significant experience you are far more likely to make the wine taste worse by messing with it. 2) The kit manufacturer will warranty the kit if it doesn't turn out, if you followed the directions. They are going to be far less inclined to help you if you didn't follow the instructions. 3) Unless you have made kits without enhancements, how would you know if your "enhancement" was actually an improvement.


----------



## jgmann67

Agreed - Try to follow the directions as much as possible. If your going to tweak, though, don't go crazy. I tweaked mine (also my first kit) after tasting it along the way and digging in to the reasons for the most common deviations from the kit directions. 

Basically, I left the script for the following:

- Fermenting to dry - so no need for sorbate. 
- Aged in Bulk so I could taste it along the way
- Oaked to taste.


----------



## DryFly

Thanks! By tweaking, I was mainly referring to the sorbate, yeast, bulk aging, how long to age, fermentation temp...

Since this is my first kit ever, I am going to follow the script


----------



## heatherd

DryFly said:


> Thanks! By tweaking, I was mainly referring to the sorbate, yeast, bulk aging, how long to age, fermentation temp...
> 
> Since this is my first kit ever, I am going to follow the script



Omitting sorbate in a dry wine is a safe tweak.

If you bulk-age, be sure to add 1/4 tsp of kmeta (potassium metabisulfite) every three months.

If you wanted to swap the yeast, RC212 is a good one that is unfussy.

Extra oak is another common tweak. I add 1 TBL of powdered oak in primary and 1-2 spirals during bulk-aging.

Additional tannins is another common tweak. I add 1 TBL during bulk-aging.


----------



## sour_grapes

I think heather covered the situation nicely!


----------



## terrymck

You need to make the acquaintance of Joe the master tweeker.


----------



## DryFly

12 hours in and she's already fermenting! Initial SG was 1.090. 

I might have a problem on my hands though. Last night there was a small leak (1 or 2 drops an hour) coming from the threads on my primary fermenter's spigot. The leak has stopped, but I wonder if that is going to be an issue. Any thoughts?


----------



## jgmann67

DryFly said:


> 12 hours in and she's already fermenting! Initial SG was 1.090.
> 
> I might have a problem on my hands though. Last night there was a small leak (1 or 2 drops an hour) coming from the threads on my primary fermenter's spigot. The leak has stopped, but I wonder if that is going to be an issue. Any thoughts?




No, that's not going to do anything at all to you. If you dropped your grape pack, and then immediately pitch your yeast, your ABV is likely going to be higher than the calculated 12.5%, though. I'd bet your SG is up another .10 to .15 if you go check it right now. 

You should anticipate this one finishing around 0.995 and getting a solid 13.5 to 14% ABV when you're done. Oak to taste and leave it alone for about 9 - 12 months... You will be very pleased with yourself.


----------



## DryFly

Before I read on this forum about the downside of not using the hops bag for the dried grape skins, I followed the instructions for maximum a color extraction, "add directly into the primary fermenter and stir at least every two days". Should I use my degasser drill attachment or does this only require a lite stir? Also, how deep should I stir, should I stay off the bottom?


----------



## cmason1957

Drill attachment is not needed. I use a plastic spoon and stir two or three times a day. All the way to the bottom and stir up that stuff it gets the yeast moving around.


----------



## DryFly

Thanks! Cmason


----------



## jgmann67

This wine is 10 months old (give or take) and is very drinkable - great nose and body; dark fruit and oak on the palate. I like it so much that, between drinking it myself, topping up other wine projects and giving bottles to friends, I'm down to a case and a half left. 

I'm going to try to lay off this wine until it reaches one year old and then try it again. In the interim, I'll be starting my second cab this weekend (the Eclipse Lodi Ranch). Hopefully, there won't be too much lag time between running out of the RJS and the Eclipse being ready to drink.


----------



## jgmann67

This wine is now a year old. As the bottle is exposed to air, the nose and palate improve. It drinks very well... Black fruit and tannin with a pleasant finish. I'm having a bit of a love-fest over the Eclipse SLD Merlot lately. The Aussie cab is so different. Less lush, more sturdy, than the the Merlot. 

It is an excellent dinner wine. A big NY Strip or TBone would be stellar with it. But as an after dinner sipping wine, it is formidable, too.


----------



## jgmann67

The Aussie Cab is nearly 15 months old. There are only 5 bottles left on the rack (with another 4 tucked away in reserve). The wine continues to please and gets better with every bottle. It may not have hit its 'sweet spot' yet. I have a heavily tweaked enigma to plow through and will stop picking off the other three reds that I have in rotation (the SLM, Cab and ST)... at least for a while. Maybe the last few bottles will get me to a year and a half or two years. 

I would do this kit again.


----------



## wineforfun

jgmann67 said:


> The Aussie Cab is nearly 15 months old. There are only 5 bottles left on the rack (with another 4 tucked away in reserve). The wine continues to please and gets better with every bottle. It may not have hit its 'sweet spot' yet...............Maybe the last few bottles will get me to a year and a half or two years.
> 
> I would do this kit again.



Great to hear as I have 30 bottles coming up on 4 months old. Trying to let them sit to at least 9-12 mos. before trying.


----------



## jgmann67

19 months after starting this kit and I'm down to 5 bottles (1 in the rack, 4 in the vault). We had one with dinner last night. I'm looking at post #157... its gotten more lush in seven months.


----------



## Rtrent2002

I've also done this kit and has been bulk aging in carboy for about 10 months. Last time I tasted it was very smooth and easy to drink.


----------



## vernsgal

jgmann67 said:


> 19 months after starting this kit and I'm down to 5 bottles (1 in the rack, 4 in the vault). We had one with dinner last night. I'm looking at post #157... its gotten more lush in seven months.



I think I need a vault! This is one of my regular go to wines and I can't seem to keep it past a year


----------



## jgmann67

vernsgal said:


> I think I need a vault! This is one of my regular go to wines and I can't seem to keep it past a year




Mine's just a wine fridge that fits 40 bottles. [emoji41]

But, I know if I'm in there, it's either a special occasion or I'm doing a bad thing.


----------



## jgmann67

This kit moved up to the En Premier series, didn't it?


----------



## jgmann67

And, it's gone... I have two cabs and two merlots in aging right now. But, this was a great wine that will be missed.


----------

