# little particles on top of wine-



## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

Hello all. I have completed the secondary fermentation and racked into a glass carboy, the de gassing and clearing is completed. I have it airlocked and now a week later I see little tiny particles floating on the top. Any ideas what this is and is it ok? How to fix?


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

you can see a particle if you look to the right at the top


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## JohnT (Feb 1, 2016)

Can't quite make it out. Any chance you could post a better picture?


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## salcoco (Feb 1, 2016)

it could be the start of flower bacteria on top of wine. I would rack immediately from the bottom leave last one inch or so. flower bacteria start at top and eats it way down the wine, so leaving the top behind should be okay. the I would double dose with k-meta in this case a 1/2 tsp. keep good eye on it so it does not start again.


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

Ok thanks for the feedback. this is a close up. which makes it look really bad... Do you think its bacteria for sure?


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## grapeman (Feb 1, 2016)

It is really hard to make anything out from the pictures but it looks to me like the wine level is really low- like down at the lower shoulder low. A bacterial infection could be possible. Have you added sulfites yet?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> Ok thanks for the feedback. this is a close up. which makes it look really bad... Do you think its bacteria for sure?



Start praying while I go get help!!!!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

grapeman said:


> It is really hard to make anything out from the pictures but it looks to me like the wine level is really low- like down at the lower shoulder low. A bacterial infection could be possible. Have you added sulfites yet?



Yes I know the pics are not great. Yes I did add the sulphite and the potassium sorbate bag and then Chitosan... If I added more wine do you think it may help?


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## GreginND (Feb 1, 2016)

Yes, it definitely should be topped up so you have minimal air space.

It's hard to say what it is - could it be some sorbate or chitosan that is clumped up? I would to it up, remove what you can, and make sure to watch it carefully for any further "growth". If it grows more, rack it from any growth and hit it with more sulfite. Monitor for off odors or tastes.


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

thank you so much!! I will do just that.


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

GreginND said:


> Yes, it definitely should be topped up so you have minimal air space.
> 
> It's hard to say what it is - could it be some sorbate or chitosan that is clumped up? I would to it up, remove what you can, and make sure to watch it carefully for any further "growth". If it grows more, rack it from any growth and hit it with more sulfite. Monitor for off odors or tastes.



By sulfite, do you mean potassium meta bisulfite? Does Sodium Meta bisulfite work the same?

thanks!


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## salcoco (Feb 1, 2016)

not sure with the closeup. surface bacteria makes a milky film and bubbles are also present. I would still rack and double dose. better sure than sorry. something is there and leaving it in will not help the wine.


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## GreginND (Feb 1, 2016)

Yes, us potassium metabisulfite. Do not use sodium. You don't want to add more sodium to your wine.


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## grapeman (Feb 1, 2016)

I would go ahead now and rack it leaving as much of the crud behind as you can and sulfite it again. That way if it is some infection it won't spread. If it is just chitosan or sorbate flakes you will at least get most of them out now. If it is down , definitely fill the carboy now. A similar wine is best. Water will cut flavor and body.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

Would one want to k-meta, let sit a day, filter and after filtering add k-meta again?


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

Ok, so I just realized that I forgot to add the chitosan. I added it (keep in mind this is a week later) and stirred and topped up the wine with similar wine. Now it looks like this. I thought I should let it settle and see if it clears, and then rack tomorrow if need be.
Do you think it was because I forgot the chitosan?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

Hi,

I have a few questions if I may ask,

1.What are you stirring it up with( when degassing), plastic, wood, etc ?

2.Are you cleaning, brushing, sanitizing, rinsing making sure all crevices are
clean, airlock clean, bung or stopper hole cleaned out, sanitized ? 

3.When you move carboy are you being super careful not to create a back siphon of your fluid in your airlock ?

Thanks!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a few questions if I may ask,
> 
> ...



Thank you for your reply
1. I used a metal attachment type degasser used with a drill. I use a plastic stir spoon -the long ones for a car boy.
2. I am cleaning, sanitizing all of my equipment before it touches the wine. And I do not let it touch anything before the wine after I wash, rinse, sanitize, rinse and rinse again. Yes I also clean and sanitize the bung and stopper/airlock. But I have not let it really sit in the cleaning/sanitizing solution. Should I? I just wash and rinse and sanitize using a juice bucket and spray bottle.
3. I am honestly not sure if I have been careful enough, I am trying not to move it as much as I can. I haven't moved the actual carboy out of its spot since the de-gassing day.


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## grapeman (Feb 1, 2016)

Not sure why you have the same thing going in two threads. The answers will flow better if you keep it all in one place. It is a pain to have to go back and forth to see what others have recommended. Not criticizing, just pointing out a way for you to get the best answers.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 1, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> Thank you for your reply
> 1. I used a metal attachment type degasser used with a drill. I use a plastic stir spoon -the long ones for a car boy.
> 2. I am cleaning, sanitizing all of my equipment before it touches the wine. And I do not let it touch anything before the wine after I wash, rinse, sanitize, rinse and rinse again. Yes I also clean and sanitize the bung and stopper/airlock. But I have not let it really sit in the cleaning/sanitizing solution. Should I? I just wash and rinse and sanitize using a juice bucket and spray bottle.
> 3. I am honestly not sure if I have been careful enough, I am trying not to move it as much as I can. I haven't moved the actual carboy out of its spot since the de-gassing day.



I have seen people including my self pull their bung with airlock and sit it on things, countertops and such, without a lot of thought. Wherever it is placed needs to be sanitized too.
It is also good to make sure the bung and inside lip (opening) of carboy is dry and you get a tight seal when bung is replaced.(they can work out latter on and you not know when wet or damp). I hope some of the more experienced wine makers see your post and can help you. Sanitation is so crucial. Next is TA. and pH. (acid levels), along with Sg.

Wish you the best!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 1, 2016)

grapeman said:


> Not sure why you have the same thing going in two threads. The answers will flow better if you keep it all in one place. It is a pain to have to go back and forth to see what others have recommended. Not criticizing, just pointing out a way for you to get the best answers.



Yes, I agree it makes no sense. Was just thinking I had it in the wrong place... my bad.wish it was all together. I won't make that mistake again...


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## JohnT (Feb 2, 2016)

I always have k-meta in a wash bottle at hand. 

I have formica countertops in my winery. I like to squirt a little puddle of k-meta onto the countertop and then set my stopper/trap in that puddle. When I am ready to reseal my container (carboy/demijohn/VCSS tank), I add a dose of k-meta to the wine, replace the liquid in the trap with some fresh k-meta solution, give the stopper another rinse with k-meta solution, then seal the container.


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## grapeman (Feb 2, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> Yes, I agree it makes no sense. Was just thinking I had it in the wrong place... my bad.wish it was all together. I won't make that mistake again...


 
I merged the two threads for you and deleted duplicates. Now you and others can see all responses in one place to follow.


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## japaisley1 (Feb 2, 2016)

thank you so much!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 2, 2016)

So this morning I noticed that there was about an inch or more of a substance on the bottom of the carboy. I am assuming lees or sediment, it was a lighter color than the shiraz. Also, there was some of the sides of the carboy. Camera on my phone is not great. Do you think this is normal for this stage. Or am I being too impatient?


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## Tnuscan (Feb 2, 2016)

Hello!
When I rack from one container to another, I take a Bung (sanitized) slide it on my racking cane and into the wine (hang at angle, so it does not completely seal opening, and can still draw air), about 5 to 6 inches, start the siphon as the wine lowers I also lower the cane , staying between top of wine and the lease on bottom, as I reach a safe amount, I gently wedge (tilt) the vessel I 'm siphoning from, staying off the bottom enough not to draw up lees, And away from the top enough so as not to draw air (looing suction for siphon),until I reach the area of the lees I don't want, then I lift cane. 

This is what I do, it works for me but it might not be the way for you. Give it some thought beforehand.

I am wondering if you maybe pulling to much of your sediment back into your new vessel. ??? 
Hope this helps!!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 2, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Hello!
> When I rack from one container to another, I take a Bung (sanitized) slide it on my racking cane and into the wine (hang at angle, so it does not completely seal opening, and can still draw air), about 5 to 6 inches, start the siphon as the wine lowers I also lower the cane , staying between top of wine and the lease on bottom, as I reach a safe amount, I gently wedge (tilt) the vessel I 'm siphoning from, staying off the bottom enough not to draw up lease, And away from the top enough so as not to draw air (looing suction for siphon),until I reach the area of the lease I don't want, then I lift cane.
> 
> This is what I do, it works for me but it might not be the way for you. Give it some thought beforehand.
> ...



thank you for your reply. I think you're right. I am probably pulling too much. I usually just clip the cane to the side and lift it up about an inch and let is siphon away until it stops. I need to try your way.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 2, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> thank you for your reply. I think you're right. I am probably pulling too much. I usually just clip the cane to the side and lift it up about an inch and let is siphon away until it stops. I need to try your way.



The clip is probably your safest bet, I used one but broke it, Thanks for reminding me. I was doing this from a pail a few weeks ago and it flipped out throwing wine everywhere, had to clean up, resanitize everything, plus got my butt in trouble with my wife. Putting them on my list, asap.

Thanks again!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 2, 2016)

Hello, so ... tonight I checked my shiraz as I had noticed it looked better. It smells great. It is very dark-can't see through it with a flashlight? Is this normal? Oh, and also, I was able to remove the last of the few particles I was so worried about, as I had topped up to the neck. They were like crystals. Any ideas what that was?


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## Johnd (Feb 2, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> Hello, so ... tonight I checked my shiraz as I had noticed it looked better. It smells great. It is very dark-can't see through it with a flashlight? Is this normal? Oh, and also, I was able to remove the last of the few particles I was so worried about, as I had topped up to the neck. They were like crystals. Any ideas what that was?



It's quite normal not to be able to see through it, even if it's completely clear. You just added chitosan a couple of days ago, so it just needs time to finish up. Even when clear, you can't see through with a flashlight, but you can with a laser pointer when clear. 

When you rack next, according to your instructions, probably a few weeks away, it will be a lot clearer. I know it's hard, but try not to look at it and notice daily progress, it'll drive you mad, but certainly check for problems. 

As for your floaters, I don't know what they are, but I don't worry too much about small floating particles until my wine has been racked at least once after being clear. If you still have CO2, it could float some stuff up. As long as your KMS is up to snuff and you're being sanitary, don't worry too much.


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## japaisley1 (Feb 3, 2016)

Great thank you for the feedback. I am happy


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## Tnuscan (Feb 6, 2016)

JohnT said:


> I always have k-meta in a wash bottle at hand.
> 
> I have formica countertops in my winery. I like to squirt a little puddle of k-meta onto the countertop and then set my stopper/trap in that puddle. When I am ready to reseal my container (carboy/demijohn/VCSS tank), I add a dose of k-meta to the wine, replace the liquid in the trap with some fresh k-meta solution, give the stopper another rinse with k-meta solution, then seal the container.



I use to squirt a puddle on my counter top too , but then I started putting it in a container (small tight vessel), to keep it from falling over.( Less spillage) , on my formica countertops.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 6, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> Great thank you for the feedback. I am happy



Hi.

Did you get your wine problems straightened out??

Thanks!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 7, 2016)

Tnuscan said:


> Hi.
> 
> Did you get your wine problems straightened out??
> 
> Thanks!



Hi Dave,
Yes thank you I did. I had forgotten to add the chitosan. I remembered 8 days after the clearing and de-gassing. After I added it and mixed it up, I noticed them disappear pretty quick. I also topped up with some store bought shiraz. It is just sitting under an airlock now, and looks amazing. It smells great too. Can't wait to taste it!
And I used your suggestion with tipping the carboy while racking, a chardonnay I have started, it worked great. Thank you!


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## japaisley1 (Feb 8, 2016)

So in just theft some wine from the carboy. Shiraz, and also a chardonnay I have soon the be ready to bottle... First tastes of both...
Results? I am so impressed with myself right now. Haha.
My first wines actually taste good, both of them! 
I wish I could explain the smells and tastes.. I have a lot to learn, but let me tell you that it tastes really good and smells great too. I can definitely smell/taste hues of the oak in the shiraz.
Cheers to wine making... I am extremely excited about this new adventure !


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## japaisley1 (Feb 10, 2016)

Racking reds....Don't you all find this hard? I have racked from primary, to secondary to bulk aging to racking again before bottling. I may have to rack even again before bottling. The wine is so dark it is hard to see the racking cane. I am trying my hardest to not disturb the sediment when racking. I am guessing maybe I didn't do a great job when I racked from primary to secondary and so on. I did use the helpful tips of tipping the carboy I am racking to. Any more tips? Should I still have some sediment at this stage? Maybe it's just because I am such a newbie at this.
Also, I have been thieving some of the wine lol. It's really good. Is this ok? It won't hurt me in any way drinking it this early on, will it? I plan on bottling it tomorrow and taking a couple bottles with me to the cottage this weekend. I know it's not prime by any means, but I'd rather drink it that some store bought wine.


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## Tnuscan (Feb 10, 2016)

japaisley1 said:


> Racking reds....Don't you all find this hard? I have racked from primary, to secondary to bulk aging to racking again before bottling. I may have to rack even again before bottling. The wine is so dark it is hard to see the racking cane. I am trying my hardest to not disturb the sediment when racking. I am guessing maybe I didn't do a great job when I racked from primary to secondary and so on. I did use the helpful tips of tipping the carboy I am racking to. Any more tips? Should I still have some sediment at this stage? Maybe it's just because I am such a newbie at this.
> Also, I have been thieving some of the wine lol. It's really good. Is this ok? It won't hurt me in any way drinking it this early on, will it? I plan on bottling it tomorrow and taking a couple bottles with me to the cottage this weekend. I know it's not prime by any means, but I'd rather drink it that some store bought wine.



Hard sometimes lol. Fun.. always.., I racked some Diablo Rojo just now, it was dark, yum..yum.. Racking and degassing 3 Reds tonight Cab. Sav., the Rojo, and Sangiovese,. As far as the lees, or sediment, after stabilizing a little is (ok), It can become your friend ( adding character), at a certain part of the process. (latter)in whites.. Take it with you, (enjoy), what came from the top, or 3 bottles down, it's not 12 months old but it's yours. lol. The top is the clearest. As far as thieving, you can't steal from yourself, the first coming off the top is mine, Always, lol. Have fun at the cottage and be safe, enjoy yourself, I sure do. Stay with this forum you'll become a pro.


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## japaisley1 (Feb 12, 2016)

I bottled one of my 6 gallon batches of Shiraz last night. Everything went great, and minimal sediment. I didn't notice any at all at the bottom of the carboy when I was done. The other I will bottle Sunday or Monday. So exciting to have made my own wine... 
And I drank probably a full bottle yesterday, no sure how much as I kept filling my wine glass straight from the carboy! lol


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