# Cluster Thinning (Frontenac)



## KevinL (Jun 1, 2018)

I know that Frontenacs are vigorous, but I wasn't expecting them to push out shoots with 4 clusters on them. 

I've read mixed things about cluster thinning, some saying that it has limited effect on fruit quality and vine health, and others saying that fruit quality and vine health are at risk if no cluster thinning is done. Most of the research I've read has been on Vinifera varieties with longer growing seasons than I have here in Northern Illinois.

4 clusters per shoot seems a bit excessive to me though. For those Frontenac growers out there, how much cluster thinning do you do if any? Before fruit set or after if it is done? How many clusters per shoot do you typically look for?

I know that things generally come down to region/soil/weather and other local conditions. One of my thoughts is just to do an vineyard experiment with some vines getting more cluster thinning than others and seeing where things end up, recording results for future seasons.


----------



## NorCal (Jun 1, 2018)

Our vines are head trained, we look for 6-7 "arms", 2 shoots per arm, 2 clusters per shoot. Comes out to 24 - 28 clusters per vine. We will shoot and fruit thin to this level.

I am experimenting with single cluster per shoot this year, to see what affect it has on the weight, ripeness, pH etc.


----------



## balatonwine (Jun 1, 2018)

Cluster thinning on Vinifera is done in conjunction with a lighter pruning. So if you normally prune to 40 buds, then you prune to, for example, 50 buds and cluster thin them. There is not much, to my knowledge, in the benefit : work : quality ratio to cluster thin on an otherwise balance trimmed vine.

Side note: I do not know about hybrids. Or if 4 clusters is too much or not.


----------



## Masbustelo (Jun 1, 2018)

I have a little experience with Frontenac. I helped pick Frontenac at a commercial vineyard a few years ago. It looked to me like they had pruned, sprayed and then done nothing else. Frontenac is extremely vigorous, and to even be able to get close to the vines to harvest, they went down the rows with a chainsaw and cut out lots of the growth. It was hard to pick and wasn't particularly overly productive. I have no idea how it should properly be managed or if it can be. As a stand alone red wine Frontenac hasn't been extremely popular. Where I helped pick they used it to make Rose, and I have read that it makes a very good port.


----------



## BigH (Jun 1, 2018)

KevinL said:


> For those Frontenac growers out there, how much cluster thinning do you do if any? Before fruit set or after if it is done? How many clusters per shoot do you typically look for?



Well, I only have one successful frontenac harvest season under my belt, and 2 failed harvest seasons (lack of spraying program and lack of bird netting), so take that into account. Here are my opinions on frontenac:

My Frontenac seems to have no trouble making 25 brix
Acidity is the dominant harvest parameter for Frontenac. I really want to see the TA dip below 15.0
To get the acid down, Frontenac needs to hang on the vine into mid September (central Iowa). It is the last variety I harvest
To get the acid down, Frontenac clusters need to get some sun.
Frontenac is incredibly vigorous and needs a heavy crop on it to keep the vigor down
I do cluster thin my Frontenac after berry set. Items 2 through 4 from the list above are what really drive my thinking. However, I don't want to remove too many clusters, or excess vigor becomes a problem.

My Frontenac is on a GDC trellis. I remove all clusters from really weak shoots. I keep 1 cluster on shoots that are 12-18 inches long, 2 on decent shoots longer than 18 inches, and 3 on hyper vigorous shoots in the head area if I think all 3 clusters will get decent sun (this tends to be a rare choice).

I personally don't keep that fourth cluster, if it shows up, simply because I know it developed last, and it seems like I will have a hard time getting his acid down before the the top cluster above him starts dimpling and getting scorched from the late summer heat. I would rather have a reduced crop of uniform quality than a large crop.

Here are the other canopy management practices I use with frontenac


shoot thinning to 6 shoots per foot
little to no weed control
I usually keep a "kicker" cane from the mid trunk area
shoots get hedged near the ground
I do some leaf pulling in August.

These practices produced a crop that had these harvest parameters in 2017: brix 25, pH 3, TA 12.2, 21.8 lbs of grapes per vine.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes
H


----------



## KevinL (Jun 3, 2018)

I have my Frontenac on a TWC. Weed control is weed whacking only with a little weeding at the trunks so I can pinch off suckers if they pop up. When the shoots reach the ground, they have a tendency to get hit with the lawn mower, and weed whacker, but other than that I don't pay too much attention to what they're up to.

Last year I panicked and harvested what little I had left early as the chipmunks were getting to the last few bunches. I wanted at least something to experiment with. I lost a lot to black rot pre-veraison, and then even more to birds and chipmunks after.

I did no cluster thinning (Last year at most there were 2 clusters per shoot), I didn't pull any shoots, and I did some leaf pulling in August.

25 degrees Brix, 3.14 pH, and a TA of 15. Harvest date of 9/11. 

I would have preferred to let them sit on the vine longer. This year I've got my "pool of death" traps all ready to help control the chipmunks, and nets for the birds so I should be able to defend them.

I think I'll hang on to the fourth cluster this year as an experiment and pull a sample from strictly 4th cluster grapes, and also from strictly 3rd cluster grapes and see if there is a difference between them and the remainder. I do have some vines near the edge of my property that get less sun than others and I'll leave them out of the experiment for the sake of having more useful information in general. My vineyard is not large enough for me to try to test other variables at this point.

With regards to the style of wine, I have had fabulous Frontenac ports, and so I may move them into that style. The batch I have now from my limited 2017 harvest is still really acidic (Even After MLF, Cold stabilization, and K Bicarbonate), and I think I'll back sweeten it to make it serviceable. If it just ends up making a sweet red, then so be it. I'll be happy with something that tastes good and has unique flavors.


----------



## BigH (Jun 5, 2018)

KevinL said:


> I have now from my limited 2017 harvest is still really acidic (Even After MLF, Cold stabilization, and K Bicarbonate), and I think I'll back sweeten it to make it serviceable. If it just ends up making a sweet red, then so be it. I'll be happy with something that tastes good and has unique flavors.



What is the pH and TA now? What yeast did you use? Did you verify MLF success with a chromatograph test?

Understand the consequences of sweetening a wine that has underwent MLF. Potassium sorbate plus residual ML bacteria is reported to be a recipe for off flavors.

H


----------



## Stressbaby (Jun 6, 2018)

Following this thread as I'm allowing 1 cluster/shoot on my hyper vigorous Frontenacs in this, year 2. Good info. 

MLF + Sorbate = geranium. Been there.


----------



## BigH (Jun 6, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> MLF + Sorbate = geranium. Been there.



I would like to use MLF to munch down some acid in my Frontenac Blanc, and then later backsweeten it a touch. Is there a safe way to do this? Suppose I verify MLF completion, rack off the MLF lees, add sulfites, and age for a few months with a few more transfers while maintaining proper SO2 levels. Do I reach a point where it is safe to add potassium sorbate? I thought I read that you get the germanium taste when ML bacteria actively ferment something in the presence of sorbate. Am I safe if I kill and remove as much ML bacteria as I can, and verify that there is no more malic acid for them to consume?

I face a bit of a dilemma with my 2017 Frontenac Blanc. I had hoped to make a midwestern chardonnay clone with it. Like a fool, I decided not to ferment with 71B and instead chose a chardonnay yeast (ICV-D47). I figured my acids were low enough that MLF would take off, and I didn't need 71B's acid munching power. Well, the MLF failed. Not sure what I did wrong. The pH was around 3.15 which I thought MBR 31 could tolerate. I can kill some of the remaining acid with acid-x, but the wine really should be sweetened.

I am essentially in the situation I describe in the first paragraph, except the part about MLF completing

H


----------



## Johnd (Jun 6, 2018)

BigH said:


> I would like to use MLF to munch down some acid in my Frontenac Blanc, and then later backsweeten it a touch. Is there a safe way to do this? Suppose I verify MLF completion, rack off the MLF lees, add sulfites, and age for a few months with a few more transfers while maintaining proper SO2 levels. Do I reach a point where it is safe to add potassium sorbate? I thought I read that you get the germanium taste when ML bacteria actively ferment something in the presence of sorbate. Am I safe if I kill and remove as much ML bacteria as I can, and verify that there is no more malic acid for them to consume?
> 
> I face a bit of a dilemma with my 2017 Frontenac Blanc. I had hoped to make a midwestern chardonnay clone with it. Like a fool, I decided not to ferment with 71B and instead chose a chardonnay yeast (ICV-D47). I figured my acids were low enough that MLF would take off, and I didn't need 71B's acid munching power. Well, the MLF failed. Not sure what I did wrong. The pH was around 3.15 which I thought MBR 31 could tolerate. I can kill some of the remaining acid with acid-x, but the wine really should be sweetened.
> 
> ...



The safest solution to the problem is to not use sorbate, and to sterile filter the wine, thus removing any yeast cells that would be capable of metabolizing the sugar you sweeten with. You do not want to add sorbate to a wine that has undergone MLF, whether it finished completely or not is immaterial.


----------



## jgmillr1 (Jun 6, 2018)

This is the first year my frontenacs are producing. Due to their vigor, I will not be thinning fruit. Ask me again in October if I thought this was a bad idea.



Stressbaby said:


> MLF + Sorbate = geranium. Been there.





BigH said:


> Do I reach a point where it is safe to add potassium sorbate? I thought I read that you get the germanium taste when ML bacteria actively ferment something in the presence of sorbate. Am I safe if I kill and remove as much ML bacteria as I can, and verify that there is no more malic acid for them to consume?



The geranium taint occurs when MLF metabolize the sorbate. So the key is to not add sorbate until the MLF bacteria are dead. Fortunately sulfites work wonders in killing them off. I have not personally back-sweetened and sorbated a wine that I put through MLF, but Presqu'Isle has an article that discusses this here. So it CAN be done with careful timing and by maintaining sufficient sulfite levels.


----------



## KevinL (Jun 7, 2018)

BigH said:


> What is the pH and TA now? What yeast did you use? Did you verify MLF success with a chromatograph test?
> 
> Understand the consequences of sweetening a wine that has underwent MLF. Potassium sorbate plus residual ML bacteria is reported to be a recipe for off flavors.
> 
> H



I didn't get my yeast beforehand. I panic harvested so I think I ended up using Pasteur Red or something. Whatever I had around at the time. I should have written it down, but at the time I figured I intended on researching a high TA friendly yeast to use on my harvest. I'll happily take recommendations.

I haven't tested TA recently, but last time I did it clocked in at 10.5. I did not verify MLF success with a Chromatograph test. I'll be ordering some strips soon once I get a list together of all the things I'm going to need to be ready for this years harvest. I'll pull a sample and run some tests and report when I know.

With regards to sweetening, I am aware that you're not supposed to use sorbate after MLF. I was just going to pull a sample and add some simple syrup to it and see if it took off. If it managed to stay stable for a while I would figure that It wouldn't blow the corks off if I bottled it. If it is true that once the MLF bacteria are dead it is safe to add sorbate, then that is what I would prefer. It seems as if it has been a discussion on these boards in the past: https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/k-sorbate-in-mlf-wines.19203/

Since we all like pictures I'll get out in the vineyard and take some of the clusters as they are developing.


----------



## BigH (Jun 8, 2018)

I am getting close to bottling my 2017 Frontenac that I made into a dry red. pH was at 3.4 and the TA measured 9.0. Books and conventional wisdom say that TA is on the high side, but I really like the way this wine tastes, so I am inclined to leave it. Thinking about bottling 3 of my 5 gallons as is, and saving off a couple gallons to experiment with blending, probably with St Croix or Petite Pearl.

I used the other half of my Frontenac to make a Rose. We won't discuss that. It is has been a bit of disaster to this point.

H


----------



## Stressbaby (Jun 9, 2018)

BigH said:


> I am getting close to bottling my 2017 Frontenac that I made into a dry red. pH was at 3.4 and the TA measured 9.0. Books and conventional wisdom say that TA is on the high side, but I really like the way this wine tastes, so I am inclined to leave it. Thinking about bottling 3 of my 5 gallons as is, and saving off a couple gallons to experiment with blending, probably with St Croix or Petite Pearl.
> 
> I used the other half of my Frontenac to make a Rose. We won't discuss that. It is has been a bit of disaster to this point.
> 
> H



Let's discuss that. I intend to make rosé from mine.


----------



## jgmillr1 (Jun 9, 2018)

A couple years ago I made a Frontenac Rose when a grower called to say he had 1700# he could bring by the next day. No real issues overall for me. The color was quite dark for a rose even though I crushed and immediately pressed.

I managed the acid with sufficient pot bicarbonate to bring TA to about 10g/L before fermentation. Cold stabilization took it to 8.1g/L. Ended up back sweetening for balance also. Nice cherry flavor.


----------



## BigH (Jun 10, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> Let's discuss that. I intend to make rosé from mine.



This was my first attempt at a rose. I started by keeping the juice on the skins too long, so my juice was almost as dark as a red. I have been blending it over time with Frontenac Blanc to bring the color back to where it should be. I pitched QA23 yeast because I read that it is a good rose yeast and my plan was to use MLF to bring down the acid. The MLF failed to complete just like it did for my blanc, despite temperature control and ML nutirents. I wish I had used 71B to bring the acid down and skipped the MLF.

The taste is really sour. I am doing a cold stabilization now. Planning to blend a bit more with a white to further thin out the color and round out the potency of the remaining malic acid. Will eventually need to back sweeten somehow, where I face the same dilemma as I mentioned earlier..

H


----------



## KevinL (Jun 20, 2018)

As promised, here is a photo of one of my four cluster shoots. Even with that many on there, the vine is having no trouble pushing out plenty of vegetation. 


We'll see how the numbers develop as they ripen.


----------



## marquettematt (Jun 23, 2018)

AS far as vinifying goes, I can't give much advice but growing Frontenac is a different story. I usually get 3 cluster shoots. In their 5th year I pruned them down to 2 cluster shoots with 7 or 8, 2 bud spurs on 2 arms. It was relatively disease-free, but I could see the over-cropping effect the next year. 75% bud kill from winter damage after a winter low of -3 or 4. I made the mistake of counting on that bolstered winter hardiness to save the vine in case I over-cropped. Its year 7 and it recovered nicely. I pruned the same but only 1 cluster per shoot. As rule of thumb, you should cluster thin outer to inner and you should thin it pre-bloom. If you're getting 4 clusters per shoot in an area that gets relatively less light intensity ( I say that because light intensity is a big factor on next years productivity), you have a healthier site. 2 clusters might be fine but don't be surprised if you get winter damage. Over-cropping can be detrimental to vine health and fruit quality. The ripening fruit becomes a sink for nutrients and can spread the vine too thin. Some vines are hard to over-crop. Frontenac is not such a vine. What I do know about making wine with it is this- let the fruit hang as long as possible and get that acid down. It also helps dissipate the herbaceous flavors associated with fronenac.. IIRC, Peter Hemstad, the breeder from U of MN who created that vine among others, said that it is best blended with Marquette


----------



## KevinL (Jul 1, 2018)

That is interesting From what I've read and talked to other growers about, I was under the impression that you couldn't kill Frontenac even if you tried (One guy told me he was trying to kill his and hosed it down with round up only for it to take off like nothing had happened.) I've gone and cluster thinned a few of the vines, (Granted I only thinned one pre bloom) and I will compare them with the ones that received no such treatment. Due to my spray program managing the black rot, this is the first year I've had where I've got more than a little to experiment with. I'm willing to risk the health of the vines as long as they're not going to die completely. For Science!

On Vinifying:

I just bottled my 2017 Frontenac (what little of it survived the black rot, birds and chipmunks). I decided against back sweetening as I found I really liked the taste of it as is. It smells like blueberries, and tastes like pepper. Very interesting combination. I rather enjoyed it, and it might have a bit to do with the fact that this is the first wine I've made from grapes from my own vineyard so I might be a bit biased. Ended up with a whole 3.5 bottles of it. I neglected to get the chromatography paper so I can't confirm if MLF was successful.

Final numbers: pH: 3.38 TA 8.25 g/L. I did dilute with a sugar/water solution on the front end before fermentation to help a little bit with that. I only did a little bit as i was worried about my pH getting too high. I also threw in what little Vidal Blanc I harvested last year as well (Wine is 89% Frontenac and 11% Vidal). As primary finished, I added the Malolactic culture. Unfortunately I didn't write down the specifics on it. After the racking I ended up adding a bit of water to top it off (not much). At this point I only had one gallon. I stuck it in my root cellar in the winter where the temperatures go very close to freezing. At this point the TA was at 10.5. I degassed it with a vacuvin hand pump and then I added K bicarbonate and Oak and returned it to the root cellar for more cold stabilization. After two more rackings it now sits in it's bottles read to drink in my opinion.

Harvest date 9/11/2017 - Bottled 6/30/2018. 

I'm sure I screwed up countless times in this process, but I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the entire process and having bottles of wine on my rack from the vineyard. 

Lessons Learned: 1. Write down the yeast used and be prepared ahead of time for harvest. 2. Write down the MLF information and be prepared to confirm if it is completed. 3. Anything dry over 11 g/L TA tastes like a punch in the mouth.

I'll have a much longer list of lessons by the end of this harvest season as well.


----------



## BigH (Jul 2, 2018)

Congrats. Might want to adopt a good logging strategy. I use google sheets so I can access my win log from a variety of devices.


----------



## marquettematt (Jul 4, 2018)

That's no surprise about the round-up. Hemstad did say that resistance to herbicide was a deciding factor in selecting the vine. I never see any damage on it. It's very reliable in that regard. How do you feel about oaking it? How did you oak it?


----------



## KevinL (Jul 7, 2018)

I used chips. I am quite partial to oak, and a lot of the friends I share my wine with are oak fans as well. I have one friend whom I would describe as happy to take a bite out of an oak branch. I added one ounce of american chips and left the wine on them for 3 months. Ended up being very oaky. I'd probably go a little lighter next time (fewer chips/gallon or less time on the oak). I'm hoping my harvest is big enough this year that I can pull aside some for bench trials and experimental batches.

I had read mixed reviews about Oaking Frontenac. I think if I had some residual sugar I would have been a little more hesitant than I already was to drop the oak in. Also when vocalizing my "to oak or not to oak" question around my circle of friends I got a "oak, duh" response. Knowing their tastes, I wasn't surprised. Overall I like how it turned out, so I intend to do the same to this years harvest.


----------



## marquettematt (Jul 7, 2018)

Good to know. My one shot at making wine from Frontenac was pretty rough. Just looking to the future for ideas on how to manage mine.


----------



## Stressbaby (Jul 7, 2018)

I'm going to jump in here, not sure this question is thread-worthy by itself.
I'm seeing color change on my Frontenac already. Seems early. Do I need to cover with the bird netting already?


----------



## marquettematt (Jul 7, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> I'm going to jump in here, not sure this question is thread-worthy by itself.
> I'm seeing color change on my Frontenac already. Seems early. Do I need to cover with the bird netting already?


Definitely wouldn't hurt. That is very early. Not even the native riparia here are changing. Where are you located?


----------



## KevinL (Jul 7, 2018)

Unless you think that the change is something other than veraison I'd get the nets up. On the upside the battle against black rot will be over early for you.



marquettematt said:


> Good to know. My one shot at making wine from Frontenac was pretty rough. Just looking to the future for ideas on how to manage mine.



From the calls I've made and the people I've talked to about it it seems like wineries are moving away from Frontenac other than for ports and blending low acid wines. We'll see where all of these experiments leave me at the end of next year.


----------



## BigH (Jul 8, 2018)

In 2017, my frontenac broke bud around April 15 and reached veraison on July 19. We had accumulated 1714 GDD at that point. This year, it broke bud on May 6th, but we are 200 GDD ahead of last year and currently sit at 1600. If GDD accumulation is a good barometer, than I should start seeing color change in about a week.

H


----------



## marquettematt (Jul 8, 2018)

For me its usually early-mid August. When I made wine from it I harvested too early. It tasted like fresh-cut grass smells.


----------



## Karl (Jul 9, 2018)

KevinL said:


> I know that Frontenacs are vigorous, but I wasn't expecting them to push out shoots with 4 clusters on them.
> 
> I've read mixed things about cluster thinning, some saying that it has limited effect on fruit quality and vine health, and others saying that fruit quality and vine health are at risk if no cluster thinning is done. Most of the research I've read has been on Vinifera varieties with longer growing seasons than I have here in Northern Illinois.
> 
> ...



I've made decent wine from Frontenac in the past. The vines can easily over crop and carry 30 lbs of fruit, which even when fully ripe makes a dull red wine. This year i am reducing back to around 40 clusters per vine (2 clusters per shoot) in an effort to pick about 13-15 lbs. My vines are growing in fertile soil and do pretty well, no black rot or other crap. Typically i have no issues with the acidity here in No. Illinois, as we can easily ripen Frontenac by mid September.


----------



## Karl (Jul 9, 2018)

marquettematt said:


> AS far as vinifying goes, I can't give much advice but growing Frontenac is a different story. I usually get 3 cluster shoots. In their 5th year I pruned them down to 2 cluster shoots with 7 or 8, 2 bud spurs on 2 arms. It was relatively disease-free, but I could see the over-cropping effect the next year. 75% bud kill from winter damage after a winter low of -3 or 4. I made the mistake of counting on that bolstered winter hardiness to save the vine in case I over-cropped. Its year 7 and it recovered nicely. I pruned the same but only 1 cluster per shoot. As rule of thumb, you should cluster thin outer to inner and you should thin it pre-bloom. If you're getting 4 clusters per shoot in an area that gets relatively less light intensity ( I say that because light intensity is a big factor on next years productivity), you have a healthier site. 2 clusters might be fine but don't be surprised if you get winter damage. Over-cropping can be detrimental to vine health and fruit quality. The ripening fruit becomes a sink for nutrients and can spread the vine too thin. Some vines are hard to over-crop. Frontenac is not such a vine. What I do know about making wine with it is this- let the fruit hang as long as possible and get that acid down. It also helps dissipate the herbaceous flavors associated with fronenac.. IIRC, Peter Hemstad, the breeder from U of MN who created that vine among others, said that it is best blended with Marquette



It really does matter where you grow any vines and how much sunlight they receive. Good exposure allows for the vines to properly harden off for the winter. If someone has 4 clusters per shoot, then i would assume they have perfectly fine sun exposure and likely no problems in the winter either. My Frontenac carried 3 clusters per shoot for years and never suffered any damage in temps -15F and below. For the record my Frontenac are now in their 7th year.


----------



## KevinL (Jul 12, 2018)

Karl said:


> I've made decent wine from Frontenac in the past. The vines can easily over crop and carry 30 lbs of fruit, which even when fully ripe makes a dull red wine. This year i am reducing back to around 40 clusters per vine (2 clusters per shoot) in an effort to pick about 13-15 lbs. My vines are growing in fertile soil and do pretty well, no black rot or other crap. Typically i have no issues with the acidity here in No. Illinois, as we can easily ripen Frontenac by mid September.



Hi Karl, thanks for the input and welcome to the forum. Where in Northern Illinois are you? 

I haven't had any issues with the Frontenac in the winter thus far, but we'll see as things progress.


----------



## Stressbaby (Jul 22, 2018)

A pic of my Frontenac. I can now see that one of the vines is not Frontenac, color distinctly different.

When do you start checking brix?


----------



## BigH (Jul 22, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> When do you start checking brix?



3rd week of August in Iowa for for Frontenac. My initial focus is on varieties that I know I will harvest before Frontenac. TA is my primary harvest parameter for Frontenac, and I don't bother measuring that until I see the pH of my smaller samples come up. I measure brix at the same time to make sure it is coming along.The sugar on Frontenac seems to reach 25 well before it is ready to harvest

H


----------



## Stressbaby (Jul 22, 2018)

BigH said:


> 3rd week of August in Iowa for for Frontenac. My initial focus is on varieties that I know I will harvest before Frontenac. TA is my primary harvest parameter for Frontenac, and I don't bother measuring that until I see the pH of my smaller samples come up. I measure brix at the same time to make sure it is coming along.The sugar on Frontenac seems to reach 25 well before it is ready to harvest
> 
> H



So your Frontenac is dark (in color) for weeks before harvest?


----------



## BigH (Jul 22, 2018)

Stressbaby said:


> So your Frontenac is dark (in color) for weeks before harvest?



Yeah. Last year it hit veraison on July 19 and I harvested on Sept 9. Netting is a must.

H


----------



## Karl (Jul 30, 2018)

I'm in the


KevinL said:


> Hi Karl, thanks for the input and welcome to the forum. Where in Northern Illinois are you?
> 
> I haven't had any issues with the Frontenac in the winter thus far, but we'll see as things progress.



I'm in the far western suburbs. 

My Frontenac started veraison about July 23rd, same as last year and last year i harvested on Sept 10th. Thinking i would like to make a Rose this year, and i need to do a better job removing clusters so i have about 15 lbs per vine. Thus far everything is on schedule, very similar to last year.


----------



## KevinL (Jul 30, 2018)

I too am in the Western Suburbs. I'd love to come by and check out your operation if you're open to the idea. I've been trying to find someone close to review information with. Shoot me a PM.


----------



## Karl (Jul 30, 2018)

KevinL said:


> I too am in the Western Suburbs. I'd love to come by and check out your operation if you're open to the idea. I've been trying to find someone close to review information with. Shoot me a PM.



No operation here, just some vines in my yard. Ideally if i purchase a bigger property then i will put something proper together. For now i am just experimenting with growing around 20-25 different varieties around the yard. 

I am downtown Geneva.


----------



## Stressbaby (Aug 5, 2018)

Just as a data point - here in Central MO we had veraison on the Frontenac first week of July. My Frontenac is now at pH 2.79, 24 brix; I stopped the TA test at 1.2% just because I'm running low on 0.2N NaOH. Confirms @BigH comments above about brix relative to the acid drop.


----------



## marquettematt (Aug 6, 2018)

Karl said:


> It really does matter where you grow any vines and how much sunlight they receive. Good exposure allows for the vines to properly harden off for the winter. If someone has 4 clusters per shoot, then i would assume they have perfectly fine sun exposure and likely no problems in the winter either. My Frontenac carried 3 clusters per shoot for years and never suffered any damage in temps -15F and below. For the record my Frontenac are now in their 7th year.


Absolutely, but mine get plenty of sun also. the only proper conclusion, I think, is nutrient intake or simply soil type itself. One of Frontenac's parents is a pure Minnesota riparia. I'm sure that soil type in northern IL is closer to that than south-central IN.


----------



## KevinL (Aug 7, 2018)

That's probably a fair assessment. I have riparia all over my yard in areas I haven't controlled it. It grows so well here I'm considering trying to cultivate a vine and see if I can get them to do more than just put out leaves. The grapes are tiny, and not particularly sweet, but they've got an interesting spice to them that might come in handy. I've got several trees with a very healthy looking riparia vines that grows all the way up into the canopy. Makes me wonder what they'd do pruned and on a trellis. Although I'm hesitant to waste precious trellis space on it. Maybe just one vine...

Harvest parameter for Frontenac for me is TA, Currently sitting at around 15 brix. I don't think I'll bother checking TA until September.


----------



## Stressbaby (Aug 11, 2018)

Another data point - central Missouri, today my Frontenac is 25 brix, 3.05, TA 1.32%. So acid is dropping. Getting a few raisins and since I'm going to make rosé, I may harvest next weekend.


----------



## Karl (Aug 13, 2018)

My Frontenac is now completed veraison, and i am still deciding how many clusters per vine i should allow. Have yet to check brix, and likely i am still a month away from picking.


----------



## KevinL (Aug 14, 2018)

My Frontenac is currently being involuntarily cluster thinned by chipmunks. I have killed 29 so far this season, yet I still am losing grapes from left to right. I just made some Capsaicin spray and put it on the grapes, and I'm hoping that will work.

Anyone else have chipmunk issues?


----------



## Masbustelo (Aug 14, 2018)

Have you tried using rat and mouse bait, but putting it in protected stations so larger animals can't get it?


----------



## havlikn (Aug 14, 2018)

Our Frontenac is at 13 brix. I have been pulling clusters that seem behind. The crop will need to hang into October. Praying for continued warm weather


----------



## Karl (Aug 14, 2018)

KevinL said:


> My Frontenac is currently being involuntarily cluster thinned by chipmunks. I have killed 29 so far this season, yet I still am losing grapes from left to right. I just made some Capsaicin spray and put it on the grapes, and I'm hoping that will work.
> 
> Anyone else have chipmunk issues?



It's not chipmunks, trust me. It's raccoons. They can climb most anything and they can walk atop the vines using wire & bird netting like an Army Ranger. 

In my yard i cover the netted vines with that hard green vinyl wire you can purchase at any hardware store (it's easy to cut), and i also place wire at the base of any end posts to deter climbing, and i even place perimeter wire (with the barbs sticking up of course) to deter any commando raccoons. Since my yard is in the city there are more than a few raccoons, and so far the professional trapper i have hired has taken out 5 raccoons in the last month and there is still more. I have billions of chipmunks and they leave the vines alone, so no need to kill them. Raccoons love grapes and they can eat entire clusters in seconds.


----------



## havlikn (Aug 14, 2018)

Agreed. Trapped 55 last year. About 15 so far this year


----------



## KevinL (Aug 15, 2018)

Karl said:


> It's not chipmunks, trust me. It's raccoons. They can climb most anything and they can walk atop the vines using wire & bird netting like an Army Ranger.
> 
> In my yard i cover the netted vines with that hard green vinyl wire you can purchase at any hardware store (it's easy to cut), and i also place wire at the base of any end posts to deter climbing, and i even place perimeter wire (with the barbs sticking up of course) to deter any commando raccoons. Since my yard is in the city there are more than a few raccoons, and so far the professional trapper i have hired has taken out 5 raccoons in the last month and there is still more. I have billions of chipmunks and they leave the vines alone, so no need to kill them. Raccoons love grapes and they can eat entire clusters in seconds.



For some reason I hadn't considered raccoons. 

I do know that chipmunks are a problem for me, though. Last year I didn't think that Chipmunks were an issue for me until I started having losses. I figured it was birds getting through the netting somehow. Then one morning I went out early and saw a pair of chipmunks in the vines with a mouthful of grapes. I chased them into a burrow which was in the middle of the row. Sure enough, my losses started directly above that hole, and then continued to span out. I trapped the chipmunks and my losses stopped.

This year I was proactive and trapped out all of the chipmunks in the vineyard (and the ones destroying my foundation), but I'm still having losses. I haven't actually laid eyes on a raccoon in the neighborhood since about a year and a half ago, I have no doubt that they are present though. I'd lay a high sum that you are right: a raccoon is my bandit.

The Capsaicin should work for repelling the raccoons as well, although as I type this the rain is busy coming down washing away my spray. I'll need to call a trapper. Let me know if you've got a recommendation Karl.


----------



## havlikn (Aug 15, 2018)

Coon cuffs with mini marshmallows. No trapper needed. We were catching three a day at some points


----------



## KevinL (Aug 15, 2018)

Unfortunately my state is stupid. Even if the darn thing was living in my attic and peeing on my kids, I'd have to beg the state for permission before trapping it.

https://extension.illinois.edu/wildlife/solutions_remove.cfm

I worry that if I ask for the stupid permit to trap the Raccoons on my own property that they will deny me, and then I'll have asked for permission and be on the radar. From the map it looks like the person who would be giving me permission would be from Cook county, and I'll be damned if I let a government anything from Cook County set foot on the property... 

I'll do a little research. If the fine is cheaper than the trapper, I might have to go that route.


----------



## havlikn (Aug 15, 2018)

Another reason not to live in Illinois. Not telling you what to do, but I know if it was my own property what I would do.


----------



## KevinL (Aug 15, 2018)

I may have already placed an order for coon cuffs. Just to look at them.


----------



## Masbustelo (Aug 16, 2018)

In Illinois you need to get a permit from the the state game warden. The same ones that patrol fishing areas etc. They will give you a permit to live trap them. Then you have to take them to an un-incorporated area, get permission from a land owner and then dispatch them with a 22 gauge rifle. Obviously you have to purchase a rifle and have a permit to use and transport it. Or, you can hire a duly licensed game trapper to do it all for you. Who knows what that would cost for a season?


----------



## Karl (Aug 16, 2018)

havlikn said:


> Another reason not to live in Illinois. Not telling you what to do, but I know if it was my own property what I would do.



If i lived in the country i would take care of this myself, but it gets messy and i live in the city, so running around shooting animals isn't exactly going to go un-noticed, if you know what i mean. Best way to stop raccoons is to use wire and create a perimeter, or have proper trellises.


----------



## treesaver (Aug 20, 2018)

There is a reason I live in Ks! Also trapping coons is what I do....all winter long. I can't imagine not being able to kill a critter that is doing damage on your property! Price you pay for living in a liberal environment, I guess. Just what everyone needs.....more goverment!


----------



## Karl (Aug 20, 2018)

treesaver said:


> There is a reason I live in Ks! Also trapping coons is what I do....all winter long. I can't imagine not being able to kill a critter that is doing damage on your property! Price you pay for living in a liberal environment, I guess. Just what everyone needs.....more goverment!



Don't think they want people using firearms in the city, and they also don't want idiots trapping raccoons and trying to release them at the local forest preserve or neighborhood park (which causes many more issues).


----------



## KevinL (Aug 20, 2018)

So I wrote that post a few days ago, did some reading for a bit, and then wandered outside at around midnight. Right in the middle of the vineyard was a raccoon. Sure enough.

So after quite a bit of reading on the subject of vermin:

In Illinois it is illegal to relocate one after it is trapped. All trapped raccoons must be destroyed or released where they are trapped. Since the price of pelts has dropped, raccoon hunting has decreased over the years and now they're overpopulated to the tune of several million (or something like that.) Most trappers have a CO2 chamber for the ones they pull out of cities. Where it is not illegal to discharge a firearm, trappers will just use a .22. The law with regards to taking them simply hasn't caught up with the current conditions (and likely never will because the licensed trappers have no incentive to give up the racket).

Since discovering their presence, two raccoons have had terrible accidents in my vineyard, not sure how they got to be so clumsy.

Anyway, pulled my first sample from the Frontenac today. I think I went a little over represented from the more shaded portion of my vineyard (the north side). Since I'm not near to harvesting I'll just remember to get an accurate representation for the next test.

17 Brix
pH: 3.01
TA: 15

TA is ahead of where it was last year, and since that is the harvest parameter, that's good news. 

My most easily accessible fourth clusters were cluster thinned by my clumsy neighborhood bandits. When I do my more serious readings later in the season I'll try to remember to get a separate reading on 4th clusters.


----------



## Karl (Aug 20, 2018)

Yes, there have been a few raccoon accidents in my yard as well, but there are a few raccoon commandos currently causing me some problems, so we are trying something different tonight.

My Frontenac is pruned to only 2 clusters per shoot, but that is still a lot of grapes. Haven't checked brix, mostly because i know they ripen in early September, so i have been focusing on my white varieties. Already have around 2 gallons of white wine getting ready to ferment, and i still have 6 large vines to pick (Lacrosse, Prairie Star, Swenson White, Aromella, Frontenac Gris x 2)


----------



## treesaver (Aug 22, 2018)

Karl said:


> Don't think they want people using firearms in the city, and they also don't want idiots trapping raccoons and trying to release them at the local forest preserve or neighborhood park (which causes many more issues).



First, I am not one of your "idiots". I have been a trapper all my life, and know how to deal with these problems. All racoons are DOA on site, and yes I do it humanly. Probably much more so than you would. Have a good day!


----------

