# Bottle aging vs. carboy



## JohnW (Feb 1, 2021)

I'm sure this topic has come up before but the final step of the WinExpert kit directions says "If choosing to carboy age wine, top-up with a similar style wine and fit with a solid stopper. Bottle aging is the preferred method." Any ideas why bottle aging would be their preferred method? I suppose natural corks do allow some natural breathing to occur but not sure how much difference that would make. Their directions also say if you plan to age the wine more than 3 months (duh!) add 1/4 tsp of potassium metabisulphite. In the past I haven't done so and found that wine I bottled two or three years that were just fine. Maybe it's because I store it in a cool location.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 1, 2021)

I think kit instructions have many, if not most, of their instructions written based on the assumption that this is the first wine the winemaker has ever made and they leave nothing to chance. Plus you want it under bottle as soon as possible, so you can buy another kit and make that. Given new winemaker and maybe not having a more experienced person to learn from, bottle aging over a not properly topped up carboy is probably the preferred method. I almost always suggest new winemakers follow those instructions to the best of their ability for the first few wines. Once you have some idea of what you are doing, then deviate.


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## wineh (Feb 1, 2021)

JohnW said:


> I'm sure this topic has come up before but the final step of the WinExpert kit directions says "If choosing to carboy age wine, top-up with a similar style wine and fit with a solid stopper. Bottle aging is the preferred method." Any ideas why bottle aging would be their preferred method? I .


It's not you, it's the collective winemaking society. Winexpert guarantees the result, as long as you follow the instructions, even though not all winemakers have the same skills. So if you carboy age, I think you're on your own. 
I bulk age, but just to 90 to 100 days. I leave the airlock in and check it daily. I have heard of people going on vacation and coming home to an empty airlock and smelly wine. I have also heard of solid bungs getting sucked into the carboy and same result.


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## JohnW (Feb 1, 2021)

I like your profit motive theory I once racked my wine to a new carboy and inserted a solid cork, as fermentation had finished sometime ago. I guess I hadn't degassed it properly or maybe it was undergoing some MLF but it blew out the cork. Fortunately I happened to notice it before it spoiled


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## JohnW (Feb 1, 2021)

wineh said:


> It's not you, it's the collective winemaking society. Winexpert guarantees the result, as long as you follow the instructions, even though not all winemakers have the same skills. So if you carboy age, I think you're on your own.
> I bulk age, but just to 90 to 100 days. I leave the airlock in and check it daily. I have heard of people going on vacation and coming home to an empty airlock and smelly wine. I have also heard of solid bungs getting sucked into the carboy and same result.


Three months or so is pretty much the path I am heading. I've made a lot more wine since COVID happened and just don't have enough bottles. Must drink faster!


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## winemaker81 (Feb 2, 2021)

@JohnW, as @cmason1957 said, wine in the bottle is FAR safer than the carboy. Kit vendors want you to have a happy result, so you'll buy more. Plus new wine makers are typically eager to crack that first bottle, and to do that the wine has to be in the bottle!

Here's an example: An acquaintance had a great wine going, but she and her husband apparently didn't understand the lesson about head space. They started drinking out of the carboy and a couple months later when the carboy was half full, she brought me a badly oxidized sample. I told her to hit it with K-meta and keep drinking, as it was on a downward spiral. Getting the wine into the bottle eliminates the problem.

Storage without K-meta? It's not required, but it greatly increases your longevity as it's an antioxidant and preservative. Why your wine was ok? Could be storage conditions. Could be that prior doses of K-meta were more than necessary but within parameters. Could be luck of the draw.

Once fermentation is done and the wine is (mostly) degassed, switched to vented bungs. They let gas escape so they won't blow. If a bung gets sucked into the carboy, the bung is too small and/or poorly shaped. None of my vented bungs could possibly get sucked into the carboy.


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## JohnW (Feb 2, 2021)

This is generally what I am thinking. If bottled and something happens to one of them, say a bad cork or you drop it, then you are out one bottle. Sad but not catastrophic. If you have an entire carboy go bad, well that's a real reason to cry.


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## Handy Turnip (Feb 2, 2021)

Personally I only make whites so bottle aging suits me - the wine is really good from 3mths, so I can enjoy the journey drinking steadily over the next year or so knowing it's all good (and obviously working out where it peaks so that I know when I should be focusing my main drinking in the next batch).

However the journey with reds is different, and I don't think I would take the same approach. Bottling early with a red that isn't at that point anywhere near it's best, means you have to employ a lot of patience to ensure you don't drink it too soon, plus you will end up drinking bottles that aren't ready when you're trying to work out when it is ready.


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## JohnW (Feb 2, 2021)

Handy Turnip said:


> Personally I only make whites so bottle aging suits me - the wine is really good from 3mths, so I can enjoy the journey drinking steadily over the next year or so knowing it's all good (and obviously working out where it peaks so that I know when I should be focusing my main drinking in the next batch).
> 
> However the journey with reds is different, and I don't think I would take the same approach. Bottling early with a red that isn't at that point anywhere near it's best, means you have to employ a lot of patience to ensure you don't drink it too soon, plus you will end up drinking bottles that aren't ready when you're trying to work out when it is ready.


Excellent point about bottling and possibly a study of human willpower. I'm way less likely to drink wine that is still in a carboy. Full wine bottles are constantly calling out "drink me, drink me...". Carboy it is.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 3, 2021)

One solution to the aging problem is to make more wine.

Seriously. Make more than you drink, and make some early drinkers. Sure, you'll pop a cork occasionally on the longer aging wines, but that is good, as it gives you the opportunity to learn first hand about aging. With a variety of wines, most of your longer aging wines will be around.

Be judicious in selecting wines to make. Early in my winemaking, I went crazy and made FAR more wine than I could ever drink, including a number of French-American hybrid whites that didn't have a long aging potential. I had 14 cases of whites that were clearly in decline. Fortunately I had friends that would drink anything with alcohol in it (hide the cough syrup!), so we drank about half and I gave the other half away. These guys were very happy to get the wine and I was happy to get rid of it.


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## Handy Turnip (Feb 3, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> One solution to the aging problem is to make more wine.
> 
> Seriously. Make more than you drink, and make some early drinkers. Sure, you'll pop a cork occasionally on the longer aging wines, but that is good, as it gives you the opportunity to learn first hand about aging. With a variety of wines, most of your longer aging wines will be around.



Yes 100% agree. One of the big mistakes I made when I started was doing a couple of batches and then pausing for a couple of months because I foolishly thought that 60 bottles would keep me going for a while. I soon realised that I was just slowly drinking my way through it too early - and would potentially have nearly finished it at the point I was bottling my next batch, which I would then in turn be forced to start drinking that too early too. I do whites so this isn't disastrous but by no means ideal!

So I did 5 batches in a short space of time, some concurrently, which meant that I knew that even if I drank a few early (while going through my earlier batches), I'd still have plenty left in 9-12mths when they should hit their peak. Just need to manage my rolling stock now..


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## JohnW (Feb 3, 2021)

Clearly, making more wine is a practical solution to most problems. Unfortunately I need to make more storage.  Stay tuned


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## winemaker81 (Feb 3, 2021)

Non-winemaking friends are amazed at the amount of wine I make ... until I mention that if 1 bottle per week is opened, a 5 gallon carboy (2 cases) is consumed in less than 6 months. [I mention this off-n-on in the Beginners forum, as new winemakers may not have realized it yet.]

One friend said, "but I don't drink that much wine." My response was, "how much Scotch do you drink in a week?"

The light bulb turned on brightly at that moment, as he often has a shot or 2 of Scotch when arriving home after work. That carboy would last him 3-4 months if he was drinking wine ...

 

I make 1 or 2 batches (5 US gallon) of white per year. For my needs, this seems to work out. I'm currently debating getting a Gewurztraminer frozen juice bucket, as I have less than 2 cases of white left, from 2018 and 2019. As @JohnW mentioned, storage is an issue, and at this moment so is bulk aging. I have to re-arrange my barrels to make space before doing anything new.


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## JohnW (Feb 4, 2021)

Problem solved - More wine it is! Lately I mostly make Italian grape kits; Amarone, Sangiovese and Nebbiolo although I do have a Lodi Cab Sav and Marlborough sauvignon blanc in the works. I just finished one Sangiovese and ordered two more of the older kits that haven't been downsized yet. I do a lot of woodworking and hopefully have enough leftover wood in my garage to build some more racks. Another good COVID project. If I don't post some pictures in the next week or so you can probably assume I lost what little motivation I currently have.


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## wineh (Feb 5, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> One solution to the aging problem is to make more wine.
> 
> Seriously. Make more than you drink, and make some early drinkers. Sure, you'll pop a cork occasionally on the longer aging wines, but that is good, as it gives you the opportunity to learn first hand about aging. With a variety of wines, most of your longer aging wines will be around.


For most of us, consumption rises to meet production!


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## Old Corker (Feb 5, 2021)

wineh said:


> For most of us, consumption rises to meet production!


It's called winflation. The more you make the more you need to keep up.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

I have a concern about ageing kit wines in carboys, when I transfer to carboy I’ve always had headspace, I’ve only access to 5 gallon carboys or a slightly smaller water cooler container, water cooler or individual 1 gallon jugs? .


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## Chuck E (Feb 6, 2021)

WillShill said:


> I have a concern about ageing kit wines in carboys, when I transfer to carboy I’ve always had headspace, I’ve only access to 5 gallon carboys or a slightly smaller water cooler container, water cooler or individual 1 gallon jugs? .



On the bigger kits (23 liter), I used to short the water by a quart or 2 and add a home made fruit pack. I would typically wind up with about 5-1/2 gallons of wine. This would fill a 5 gallon carboy and leave a couple bottles (750mL) as top off wine. Alternatively, you can fill the headspace with a similar store bought wine.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

I made a kit last July and added a 4 kg grape pack and after racking I was left with max 20 litres of wine which I have recently added campden tablets, I’ve gone to far to think about adding additional wine to top up , so it’s prayers at this stage


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## Chuck E (Feb 6, 2021)

@WillShill I would add additional wine to top off. Oxygen is the enemy at this point.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

Even after all these months in carboy?


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## sour_grapes (Feb 6, 2021)

WillShill said:


> I made a kit last July and added a 4 kg grape pack and after racking I was left with max 20 litres of wine which I have recently added campden tablets, I’ve gone to far to think about adding additional wine to top up , so it’s prayers at this stage





WillShill said:


> Even after all these months in carboy?



Sorry, I am not following you. What is your argument _against_ adding wine to top it up?


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## Tipsy (Feb 6, 2021)

When I am making wine, I like to think 1.5-2 yrs ahead. I kinda kept track roughly how much I drink. I usually drink 1 or sometimes 2 glasses a night or 2-3 bottles a week. If I have company its more so I figure 6 batches a year. So every year I make at least 6 batches to keep up. I am not a drinker though, I just enjoy the taste of wine, so I am not tempted to drink more. Figure out how much you drink and then plan on making that much. I have been aging my wine about 3 mos in carboy and then bottle. I usually put 24 bottles away in boxes, layed on their side, and leave out six for testing. I open one every 3 months starting about 9 mos. I have been thinking on waiting for 12 mos for my first testing with my new reds though. I have 12 carboys and there are 2 of us using them so really only 6. It would be difficult to age enough in carboys. I think that needs to be taken into consideration for your decision on bottle or carboy aging. If you only want to drink aged wine, you need to make enough to get ahead.


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## CDrew (Feb 6, 2021)

The first 2-3 years, you're making wine for your future self. That's the reality. It gets so much better over time that you owe it to yourself to wait. Have some for tasters along the way, but keep the bulk of it for 2-3 years or longer. Where you store it , bottle vs carboy doesn't really matter, but you'll need your storage for the next vintage or "batch", so think about that. That's usually what forces me to start bottling every late summer.

Now if you're only making a small amount, like a kit, you'll need to bottle, because otherwise it's difficult to keep your bulk storage topped up. And, since this topic of head space comes up all the time, I would propose you make a fairly standard wine like a cabernet or Merlot, or Zinfandel, and bottle it unoaked. Use that for future topping. That will take your future head space problems off the table.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> Sorry, I am not following you. What is your argument _against_ adding wine to top it up?


Probably could have added more details, my wine was started July last year and racked in October, and again in January when I added campden tablets , after first racking I had headspace and funnily enough less headspace in second carboy, must be smaller than previous carboy. So in conclusion I’ve had headspace for 5 months is it too late to reduce headspace now is the damage done.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 6, 2021)

WillShill said:


> I have a concern about ageing kit wines in carboys, when I transfer to carboy I’ve always had headspace, I’ve only access to 5 gallon carboys or a slightly smaller water cooler container, water cooler or individual 1 gallon jugs? .


What size is the kit? Large ones are typically 23 liter (6 US gallons), some are 3 gallons, and Winexpert sells 1 gallon. I have not heard of a 19 liter (5 gallon) kit, which doesn't mean they don't exist.

When I make 23 liter kits, I bulk age in a 19 liter carboy (mine are typically 5.25 US gallons), with the excess in smaller bottles. I have bottles from 200 ml on up to 1.5 liter and 4 liter jugs. #3 drilled stoppers fit bottles that are typical wine bottle size.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> What size is the kit? Large ones are typically 23 liter (6 US gallons), some are 3 gallons, and Winexpert sells 1 gallon. I have not heard of a 19 liter (5 gallon) kit, which doesn't mean they don't exist.
> 
> When I make 23 liter kits, I bulk age in a 19 liter carboy (mine are typically 5.25 US gallons), with the excess in smaller bottles. I have bottles from 200 ml on up to 1.5 liter and 4 liter jugs. #3 drilled stoppers fit bottles that are typical wine bottle size.


Hi mine was 23 litres with grape pack and after racking had roughly 20 litres, I have a water bottle 19 litres but have heard about issues with them, I have 5 litre jugs which I can age in. As of now I’ve 20 litres of wine in a 23 litre carboy and am unsure of my next move,as I plan to barrel age soon I think multiple transfers could cause as much oxidation as excess headspace.


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## sour_grapes (Feb 6, 2021)

So, if you are concerned that it is "too late," then that means that you are concerned that the wine is spoiled and undrinkable. Soo, I would open the carboy, pour myself a glass, have a sip or three, and decide if it should be poured down the sink, or, if not, topped up.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> So, if you are concerned that it is "too late," then that means that you are concerned that the wine is spoiled and undrinkable. Soo, I would open the carboy, pour myself a glass, have a sip or three, and decide if it should be poured down the sink, or, if not, topped up.


That’s it in a nutshell, that’s tomorrow task, I just wonder why kits which takes 23 litres at startup and only produces 20/21 litres of wine have industry which produce mainly 23 litre carboys, I know there are smaller 19 litre carboy which aren’t as available, but then when kit makers describe 30 bottles it more appealing than 25 actual bottles.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 6, 2021)

I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.


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## WillShill (Feb 6, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.


That’s probably more good advice from this forum, earlier advice was make sure to leave lees which flies in the face of extended maceration.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 6, 2021)

@WillShill, if you're down 3 liters from rackings, you're probably accidentally tossing good wine. Here's a few pointers:

1) DO NOT throw out the wine from the test jar when testing SG. Make sure all equipment is clean and sanitized. Test the SG and pour the wine back in. It is fine.

2) For the first racking from the carboy after fermentation is completely done, leave the wine a few more days for the lees to compact. If you rack early, the lees is not fully settled and contains a lot of wine -- waiting a few days helps with this. Watch the sediment level, and use a grease pen or dry board marker to mark the level each day.

3) Put a wedge under the carboy and when racking, and angle the end of the racking cane towards the edge. The surface area of the wine is reduced and the depth is increased, so you get more wine out of the carboy. Sometimes I get a bit of lees in that racking, but I catch in during the next racking.

4) Pour the sludge into a tall bottle and put it in the fridge for a week. In many cases the lees will resettle and you'll recover wine. I've had a 1.5 liter bottle of pure sludge compact to 1" high. I've also had the lees settle so there was 1/4" of clear wine on top, not enough to recover. It doesn't always work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Kit manufacturers say the carboy doesn't need topping, and enough folks have posted that they don't top and have no problems for me to believe it. For normal kit aging, it appears the headspace is not a problem. However, if you're aging longer, eliminate the headspace.

I have no idea how much headspace is too much, what the dividing line is. However, topping the carboy eliminates the question, so I go with that. This is a personal choice.

In my area, 5 gallon carboys are equally available as 6.

The instructions I've read say to have 28-30 bottles available for bottling. IME, if the kit is diluted to exactly 23 liters and racking is carefully done, 28 bottles is fairly accurate.

Oxidation is not a quick process. Excess headspace over a period of weeks or months (depending on the batch size and the amount of headspace) oxidizes wine. If you are racking at a reasonable pace, O2 is not a problem. When going 1 year from start to bottling, I rack probably 6 times (max of 8 in rare circumstances), and do not have oxidation problems.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 6, 2021)

WillShill said:


> That’s probably more good advice from this forum, earlier advice was make sure to leave lees which flies in the face of extended maceration.


Extended maceration is exposure to the pulp. Lees is fine fruit solids that have settled out of suspension -- from what I've read the lees begins to decompose relatively quickly, and we remove that from the wine to avoid the decomposition from negatively affecting the wine. I read several article that say the decomposition doesn't start until the lees settle, although I don't recall the exact explanation.

If we are talking about kit instructions that say to leave the lees and stir it back into suspension for the fining agents to work better, that's yet a different scenario. Fermentation has ended shortly before, the lees are still settling. The fining agents typically used in kits, kieselsol & chitosan, work amazingly fast, so the lees is removed fairly quickly.

This is a lot to absorb all at once. Search for reputable grape research organizations (there are many) and read what they have to say. Some of it is WAYYYY too technical as my high school chemistry and biology is decades old, but a lot of it is worthwhile reading.


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## Old Corker (Feb 7, 2021)

It has taken me 3 years to learn the things @winemaker81 put in his last two posts. I‘ve honed my racking skills so I have less headspace now. Although I have gotten away with leaving it between the “end of fermentation“ racking and the “racking off lees“ racking, once into bulk aging I always top up. 
One other variable to deal with is that not all carboys are created equal. It’s not much, maybe 100ml, but does create mystery headspace. Or sometimes when racking from a smaller one to a larger one I have excess wine. I either put it in a bottle for later topping or just drink it. Someday I want to measure all my carboys and label them.

edit: I get the excess when going from larger to smaller. Duh!


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## WillShill (Feb 7, 2021)

Old Corker said:


> It has taken me 3 years to learn the things @winemaker81 put in his last two posts. I‘ve honed my racking skills so I have less headspace now. Although I have gotten away with leaving it between the “end of fermentation“ racking and the “racking off lees“ racking, once into bulk aging I always top up.
> One other variable to deal with is that not all carboys are created equal. It’s not much, maybe 100ml, but does create mystery headspace. Or sometimes when racking from a smaller one to a larger one I have excess wine. I either put it in a bottle for later topping or just drink it. Someday I want to measure all my carboys and label them.


I’m at the learning stage definitely and racking is probably one of the trickier ones single handed , funny thing since my trip to Bordeaux with my wife and her new found love of red wine she’s quite interested in helping. 
Totally agree with your point on carboy sizes , my current one requires probably 1/2 bottles to top up , the previous one looked like 4/5 bottles.


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## bstnh1 (Feb 7, 2021)

WillShill said:


> I made a kit last July and added a 4 kg grape pack and after racking I was left with max 20 litres of wine which I have recently added campden tablets, I’ve gone to far to think about adding additional wine to top up , so it’s prayers at this stage


You do not want to age in a carboy with any headspace below the neck. Any length of time sitting with with all that head space and you'll end up with oxidized wine. It's always best to rack to smaller containers or top up with a similar wine until the level is in the neck.


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## Tipsy (Feb 7, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.



I always get 30-31 bottles as well


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## bstnh1 (Feb 7, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.


I get 30 only if I keep racking into a 6 gallon carboy and top up as necessary. If I rack down rather than topping up, I get a couple of bottles less.


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## Ajmassa (Feb 7, 2021)

Old Corker said:


> It has taken me 3 years to learn the things @winemaker81 put in his last two posts. I‘ve honed my racking skills so I have less headspace now. Although I have gotten away with leaving it between the “end of fermentation“ racking and the “racking off lees“ racking, once into bulk aging I always top up.
> One other variable to deal with is that not all carboys are created equal. It’s not much, maybe 100ml, but does create mystery headspace. Or sometimes when racking from a smaller one to a larger one I have excess wine. I either put it in a bottle for later topping or just drink it. Someday I want to measure all my carboys and label them.
> 
> edit: I get the excess when going from larger to smaller. Duh!


yep. it’s all the little things that add up like @winemaker81 noted. 
- carboy volume variance
-tiling for easier racking
-mixed up lees/wine refrigerate to separate
-i also tie a piece of mesh to the end of my cane 

at this point i wouldn’t want to add that much wine to top up. and i wouldn’t want to remove o2 with with vacuum for extended amount of time either. 

i’d probably bite the bullet, get a 5gal carboy and store remainder in bottles/jugs. and then will have the foresight for the next time. Because as always seems to be the case—- majority of my winemaking knowledge comes from screwing up or having an issue- then troubleshooting said issue. Only then is it fully committed to memory.


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## WillShill (Feb 7, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> yep. it’s all the little things that add up like @winemaker81 noted.
> - carboy volume variance
> -tiling for easier racking
> -mixed up lees/wine refrigerate to separate
> ...


I have to say the winemakers on this forum have kept me busy since I entered this thread, I’ve been getting great insight and advice from lots of members happy to help a novice, if this batch is compromised I’ve another finishing extended maceration in two weeks and two more kits itching to be made.


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## heatherd (Feb 7, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.


Same, I get around 30 bottles because I only rack twice: once from my fermenter to a carboy and once back to a bucket to bottle. I only worry about getting the wine off the gross lees. I top up with similar wine. I typically let it ferment to dry in my bucket so that I can stabilize and then top up all the way in the carboy.


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## WillShill (Feb 8, 2021)

sour_grapes said:


> So, if you are concerned that it is "too late," then that means that you are concerned that the wine is spoiled and undrinkable. Soo, I would open the carboy, pour myself a glass, have a sip or three, and decide if it should be poured down the sink, or, if not, topped up.


So I took your advice and opened the carboy, firstly it smelt okay so I took a sample and it was pretty good so I added a shop bought bottle of Argentinian Malbec, funny thing I decided to taste it as well, well mine tasted better which has me smiling from ear to ear, didn’t expect that. I’ve still got a slight bit of headspace so I’ll add a bit more and then leave it till April before barrel ageing, thanks again for all the advice.


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## JohnW (Feb 15, 2021)

Earlier I committed to making some more racks for all the additional wine @winemaker81, @Handy Turnip and others advised me to make. I have a lot of wood leftover from various projects and since I was putting this in the the area we affectionately call the dungeon, looks were not a priority. It holds 70 bottles with room for 3 carboys or six cases on the bottom; viewers choice. I thought this was going to be an easy project but then again it was freezing in my garage and things never go as planned.  As a plus I still have all my digits and this area says in high 50's in the winter and 60's in the summer.


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## winemaker81 (Feb 15, 2021)

JohnW said:


> looks were not a priority.


It looks good to me!

If you haven't, fasten the rack to the wall. It probably shouldn't tip over ... but stuff happens. Better safe than sorry!


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## hounddawg (Feb 15, 2021)

JohnW said:


> Clearly, making more wine is a practical solution to most problems. Unfortunately I need to make more storage.  Stay tuned


use behind your recliners,, beside the TV, under the bed.....
Dawg


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## JohnW (Feb 15, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> It looks good to me!
> 
> If you haven't, fasten the rack to the wall. It probably shouldn't tip over ... but stuff happens. Better safe than sorry!


Yeah, that was a BIG concern. I used concrete anchor screws plus glue. Fortunately we don't live in an earthquake zone but we did have that shocker in 2011. Anyway it shouldn't tip over unless the big one hits (whatever that is).


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## JohnW (Feb 15, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> use behind your recliners,, beside the TV, under the bed.....
> Dawg


That's what I've been doing...


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## hounddawg (Feb 15, 2021)

I'm going to half to break down and pull my 9' x 48' container around to where i can see to shoot, move all my construction tools from a bedroom and cut a breezeway between what is now wine room & tool room, I'm out of storage room as well.... that will also allow me to fix the problem of temperatures, storage cooler, wine room warmer,,, 
Dawg


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## JohnW (Feb 15, 2021)

hounddawg said:


> I'm going to half to break down and pull my 9' x 48' container around to where i can see to shoot, move all my construction tools from a bedroom and cut a breezeway between what is now wine room & tool room, I'm out of storage room as well.... that will also allow me to fix the problem of temperatures, storage cooler, wine room warmer,,,
> Dawg


Every time I think I have plenty of storage, stuff starts breeding. I guess less really is more


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## hounddawg (Feb 15, 2021)

JohnW said:


> Every time I think I have plenty of storage, stuff starts breeding. I guess less really is more


sadly i think you just hit the nail on the head,,,  
Dawg


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## WillShill (Feb 23, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> I guess I must rack dirtier than most and top up with wine, either mine or something else. I always get a full 30-31 bottles from wine kits.


Well I did one of those “dirty racks”, “that looks worse typed”. I’ve almost reached the neck of carboy and blocked siphon ended transfer into carboy, I put remainder into a bottle and hope the sediment will drop in the fridge to allow me to remove headspace. Already an hour later there’s a heavy sediment layer on the carboy base, further comments on this thread talked about carboy sizing, I think my first carboy must be larger than the rest, I haven’t measured capacity yet but it’s my excess headspace culprit.


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## cmason1957 (Feb 23, 2021)

WillShill said:


> Well I did one of those “dirty racks”, “that looks worse typed”. I’ve almost reached the neck of carboy and blocked siphon ended transfer into carboy, I put remainder into a bottle and hope the sediment will drop in the fridge to allow me to remove headspace. Already an hour later there’s a heavy sediment layer on the carboy base, further comments on this thread talked about carboy sizing, I think my first carboy must be larger than the rest, I haven’t measured capacity yet but it’s my excess headspace culprit.



Once you start "dirty racking" you'll never go back!!!


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## JohnW (Feb 24, 2021)

cmason1957 said:


> Once you start "dirty racking" you'll never go back!!!


When I rack I try to get as much juice as possible into the carboy (or as much as I need to fill the carboy). I really don't care if I end up with some sediment in the carboy as I'll deal with that when I bottle. Typically when I do bottle the last one will have a good deal of sediment. I put this in the fridge and let it settle for a few hours before drinking.


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## WillShill (Feb 24, 2021)

Chilled red wine, first had that in Spain two years ago and was surprisingly nice, broke with tradition but with the heat it worked


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## cmason1957 (Feb 24, 2021)

JohnW said:


> When I rack I try to get as much juice as possible into the carboy (or as much as I need to fill the carboy). I really don't care if I end up with some sediment in the carboy as I'll deal with that when I bottle. Typically when I do bottle the last one will have a good deal of sediment. I put this in the fridge and let it settle for a few hours before drinking.



For me, by the time I am ready to bottle, there is nothing on the bottom of the carboy. But, I seldom bottle before the year mark from yeast pitch.


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## fuzzmeister (Feb 24, 2021)

One other thing that nobody mentioned between carboy versus bottle aging is that if you bottle your wine it will age faster then leaving it in the carboy! bigger volume in the carboy which takes more time to change its complexity, then in a smaller container like a bottle.


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## JohnW (Feb 24, 2021)

fuzzmeister said:


> One other thing that nobody mentioned between carboy versus bottle aging is that if you bottle your wine it will age faster then leaving it in the carboy! bigger volume in the carboy which takes more time to change its complexity, then in a smaller container like a bottle.


I have haven't heard the larger volume of a carboy would have any significant impact on how wine ages. Possibly this occurs because the bottle corks allow a small amount of O2 to enter and react with the wine whereas carboys allow significantly less air infiltration. Also the act of bottling introduces more air to the wine, speeding up the aging process as well.


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## fuzzmeister (Feb 24, 2021)

JohnW said:


> I have haven't heard the larger volume of a carboy would have any significant impact on how wine ages. Possibly this occurs because the bottle corks allow a small amount of O2 to enter and react with the wine whereas carboys allow significantly less air infiltration. Also the act of bottling introduces more air to the wine, speeding up the aging process as well.


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## fuzzmeister (Feb 24, 2021)

I have 2 different sizes of carboys 23 litre and 11.5, when my wine is ready to bottle I rack it from the 23 litre carboy in to 15 bottles and the rest goes into a 11.5 litre carboy to age for at lest 6 months along with the 15 bottles! After 6 months I will bottle the 11.5 litre carboy and sample it along side of a bottle that I bottled 6 months before! and the bottled stuff tastes much better then the wine that came out of the 11.5 carboy. Wine kit company’s will confirm that bottles age faster then carboys.


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## WillShill (Feb 24, 2021)

fuzzmeister said:


> I have 2 different sizes of carboys 23 litre and 11.5, when my wine is ready to bottle I rack it from the 23 litre carboy in to 15 bottles and the rest goes into a 11.5 litre carboy to age for at lest 6 months along with the 15 bottles! After 6 months I will bottle the 11.5 litre carboy and sample it along side of a bottle that I bottled 6 months before! and the bottled stuff tastes much better then the wine that came out of the 11.5 carboy. Wine kit company’s will confirm that bottles age faster then carboys.


My wine is ageing in a carboy from September last year and I had planned to barrel age for a month in July this year when it’s a year old, can you offer any advice which would alter my plans, as a novice I like to pick the brains of more experienced wine makers


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## JohnW (Feb 24, 2021)

fuzzmeister said:


> I have 2 different sizes of carboys 23 litre and 11.5, when my wine is ready to bottle I rack it from the 23 litre carboy in to 15 bottles and the rest goes into a 11.5 litre carboy to age for at lest 6 months along with the 15 bottles! After 6 months I will bottle the 11.5 litre carboy and sample it along side of a bottle that I bottled 6 months before! and the bottled stuff tastes much better then the wine that came out of the 11.5 carboy. Wine kit company’s will confirm that bottles age faster then carboys.


I do the same thing, bottling some now and putting the remainder in a 3 gal carboy for later. To date I haven't done a side-by-side taste test of the two but now I'm going to have to give it a try. Thanks for the info.


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## Old Corker (Feb 24, 2021)

WillShill said:


> Chilled red wine, first had that in Spain two years ago and was surprisingly nice, broke with tradition but with the heat it worked


We have a small wine cooler we use as a serving fridge. It is two zone and I keep the red bottles at 55-57F and the whites at 46 (lowest it will go). I like my red wine with this slight chill over room temp. Although I won't turn down room temperature red wine


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## JeffA (Feb 27, 2021)

From what I have learned about bulk (carboy) aging vs bottle is that most home wine makers do not filter their wines, me included. You can look at a carboy all day long and think it is outstandingly clear. So you bottle it. Then you come back six or nine months later to get a bottle and share with your friends only to find out that you should have waited a little long to bottle because the is a bit of very fine sediment in the bottle. If you go ahead and age in a clean carboy for another six to twelve months. It will make a drastic difference in your finished wine. If you use an airlock on your bulk aging. Just make sure to keep an eye on it so it doesn't dry out from vaporization. I also recommend changing it out with a clean airlock monthly. If you use a solid bung for your bulk aging. Just make sure your wine is no longer fermenting. Otherwise you risk popping the bung out and you not know it and most likely by the time you discover it. The wine is ruined. I usually use a combination. Keep an airlock on it for about three or four months (at least). Then switch to a solid bung.


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## Brian55 (Feb 27, 2021)

JeffA said:


> From what I have learned about bulk (carboy) aging vs bottle is that most home wine makers do not filter their wines, me included. You can look at a carboy all day long and think it is outstandingly clear. So you bottle it. Then you come back six or nine months later to get a bottle and share with your friends only to find out that you should have waited a little long to bottle because the is a bit of very fine sediment in the bottle. If you go ahead and age in a clean carboy for another six to twelve months. It will make a drastic difference in your finished wine. If you use an airlock on your bulk aging. Just make sure to keep an eye on it so it doesn't dry out from vaporization. I also recommend changing it out with a clean airlock monthly. If you use a solid bung for your bulk aging. Just make sure your wine is no longer fermenting. Otherwise you risk popping the bung out and you not know it and most likely by the time you discover it. The wine is ruined. I usually use a combination. Keep an airlock on it for about three or four months (at least). Then switch to a solid bung.


This is the way: Silicone Stopper (Breathable) - Carboy | MoreWine 
Item # FE479 and morewinewaking.com if the link doesn't work.


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## JohnW (Feb 28, 2021)

Brian55 said:


> This is the way: Silicone Stopper (Breathable) - Carboy | MoreWine
> Item # FE479 and morewinewaking.com if the link doesn't work.


These look awesome. I'm buying some!


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## DizzyIzzy (Mar 1, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Non-winemaking friends are amazed at the amount of wine I make ... until I mention that if 1 bottle per week is opened, a 5 gallon carboy (2 cases) is consumed in less than 6 months. [I mention this off-n-on in the Beginners forum, as new winemakers may not have realized it yet.]
> 
> One friend said, "but I don't drink that much wine." My response was, "how much Scotch do you drink in a week?"
> 
> ...


When the weather breaks I have hired a local Amish carpenter to build an extension onto my garage for winemaking storage. Think outside the box for additional storage space. LOL..................................DizzyIzzy


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## DizzyIzzy (Mar 1, 2021)

JohnW said:


> These look awesome. I'm buying some!


I use them all the time now. They are awesome!.............................DizzyIzzy


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## winemaker81 (Mar 1, 2021)

fuzzmeister said:


> One other thing that nobody mentioned between carboy versus bottle aging is that if you bottle your wine it will age faster then leaving it in the carboy! bigger volume in the carboy which takes more time to change its complexity, then in a smaller container like a bottle.


Smaller quantities are supposed to age faster.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all wines need a year of aging. A lot of whites and lighter reds may be perfectly drinkable at 6 months. Besides, it's a personal choice when to drink a wine. If anyone likes a heavy red at 6 months? Cool. Enjoy it!



JeffA said:


> You can look at a carboy all day long and think it is outstandingly clear. So you bottle it. Then you come back six or nine months later to get a bottle and share with your friends only to find out that you should have waited a little long to bottle because the is a bit of very fine sediment in the bottle.


@JeffA is correct. This can does happen.

This is an area where there are many personal choices. Filtering, fining, and waiting are all valid choices, and each has its own pluses and minuses.

Filtering and fining agents clear the wine, and it can be bottled in as little as 4 weeks in the case of low end kits. Yet each has side effects, e.g., bentonite can remove up to 15% color in red wines, so it's a trade off.

Giving the wine more time to clear _mostly _works, but some apparently clear wines will drop sediment in the bottle, even after a year+ of bulk aging. This is another trade off, e.g., no side effects vs chance of dropping sediment.

I'm not consistent in my approach to clearing wine. In 2019 I used a light dose of bentonite on all reds, which worked well and had no visible effect upon color. For the 2020, so far I haven't added any fining agents, other than kieselsol/chitosan on the 2nd run that developed H2S. When I rack the barrels just prior to the 2021 wines going in, I will evaluate sediment in the barrels, and decide if I need a fining agent in carboys before bottling. I'd like to no use a fining agent, but I'm keeping an open mind until I see my results.


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## JohnW (Mar 1, 2021)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I use them all the time now. They are awesome!.............................DizzyIzzy


Just ordered some! With my attention span, not having to worry about keeping airgaps filled or solid corks blowing out is a good thing.


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## JohnW (Mar 1, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> @JeffA is correct. This can does happen.
> 
> This is an area where there are many personal choices. Filtering, fining, and waiting are all valid choices, and each has its own pluses and minuses.
> 
> ...


For kit wines which provide bentonite, kieselsol and chitosan I still end up with some sediment, especially in the last couple of bottles. I generally look to see if there is any before I open it. If so I slowly pour the glasses so as to leave most of the sediment in the bottle with a little wine. If they do end up with some in their glass I tell them it is rich with antioxidants or some such thing.


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## WillShill (Mar 1, 2021)

DizzyIzzy said:


> When the weather breaks I have hired a local Amish carpenter to build an extension onto my garage for winemaking storage. Think outside the box for additional storage space. LOL..................................DizzyIzzy


I hope you level with your Amish carpenter as the purpose of your extension, with the fermenting of the devil’s buttermilk


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## winemaker81 (Mar 1, 2021)

JohnW said:


> For kit wines which provide bentonite, kieselsol and chitosan I still end up with some sediment, especially in the last couple of bottles. I generally look to see if there is any before I open it. If so I slowly pour the glasses so as to leave most of the sediment in the bottle with a little wine. If they do end up with some in their glass I tell them it is rich with antioxidants or some such thing.


Rack more carefully. The last couple of bottles of one of my batches lasted 7 years, with no sediment. 3 to 5 years without sediment is common for me.

My first racking from primary to secondary is dirty. My purpose is to get the wine off the gross lees without wasting too much.

The second racking is cleaner, targeting 99%. If I get a bit of sediment? Oh, well. Next racking will address that.

After that, my rackings are clean. I pour the light sludge into a bottle and refrigerate for a week, then pour off the sediment.


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## Handy Turnip (Mar 2, 2021)

Yes, I follow a similar principle and haven't had any issue with any sediment in bottles (although I haven't any that are that old to be honest!). I play it really safe on later rackings to make it clean as possible, and then pour the excess into a big kilner jar which I then leave to settle for a week.


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## pillswoj (Mar 2, 2021)

My bigger red kits I tend to get sediment in the bottle after a couple of years, this is with bulk aging and racking for a year. I have been wondering if it is due to the higher iron content in my water but have not as of yet gotten around to doing a controlled experiment to verify.


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## DizzyIzzy (Mar 2, 2021)

WillShill said:


> I hope you level with your Amish carpenter as the purpose of your extension, with the fermenting of the devil’s buttermilk


Actually, we have had a couple of wine tastings. He is definitely interested in learning. For Christmas I bought him a hydrometer.................DizzyIzzy


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## DizzyIzzy (Mar 2, 2021)

pillswoj said:


> My bigger red kits I tend to get sediment in the bottle after a couple of years, this is with bulk aging and racking for a year. I have been wondering if it is due to the higher iron content in my water but have not as of yet gotten around to doing a controlled experiment to verify.


I have well water also which is why when a receipe calls for water I purchase bottled spring water from Walmart, thus no issues...................DizzyIzzy


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## JohnW (Mar 2, 2021)

DizzyIzzy said:


> I have well water also which is why when a receipe calls for water I purchase bottled spring water from Walmart, thus no issues...................DizzyIzzy


Even though we are on the county water supply I prefer to use bottled water. When I don't have it on hand I use the fridge filtered water. Not sure if it is any better but I feel better about it.


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## winemaker81 (Mar 3, 2021)

pillswoj said:


> My bigger red kits I tend to get sediment in the bottle after a couple of years, this is with bulk aging and racking for a year. I have been wondering if it is due to the higher iron content in my water but have not as of yet gotten around to doing a controlled experiment to verify.


Another possibility is tannin, as reds can drop tannins as they age.


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