# Degassing without vacuum



## bds3 (Mar 16, 2013)

First of all, let this be my obligatory "this is my first post but I've been stalking this forum forever and it's awesome." Which is true of course.

I've been brewing beer for some time with good success. I've gotten to the point where my not-so-good beers are better than most you can buy in the store, and my good beers are nearly without [commercial] equal. I have virtually everything I need to start making wine from a kit (except a 7.9gal bucket and a corker), which I'd like to do, but my question is this:

Is degassing with a drill+attachment adequate to produce good wine? I keep reading that vacuum degassing is the single biggest improvement to one's wine; I can't afford that awesome-looking all-in-one that's all over this site, and I'm not sure I'm handy enough to make my own vacuum pump from auto parts equipment. 

I don't want to waste $150 or more on a kit and end up with a fizzy wine, so any input is appreciated. Thanks.


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## TonyP (Mar 16, 2013)

Keep in mind that wine was made for thousands of years, long before degassing was used. The real secret to degassing is getting the wine warm enough, at least 68 - preferably 72F. Under those conditions, wine will degas naturally over time. Degassing with a drill then is easy, again if it's warm enough.. One thing you want to avoid is getting air into the wine, so be careful not to get it going into a vortex.

BTW, degassing's benefit is more than fizz. If wine is not degassed properly it may not clear.


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## tonyt (Mar 16, 2013)

+1 What Tony P said. Dont make a deep vortex that might let too much oxygen in. Use a back and forth motion if your drill reverses. Go for it.


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## bds3 (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks Tony x2. The degassing is my biggest concern at this point. I've got the go-ahead from the wife (probably because she drinks wine and not the copious amount of beer we have sitting around). I suppose I should go for it.


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## GeoS (Mar 16, 2013)

They make a whip that attaches to the drill and prevents a vortex and is cheaper than the "mixers" with the blades. It works great for me.


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## bds3 (Mar 17, 2013)

GeoS said:


> They make a whip that attaches to the drill and prevents a vortex and is cheaper than the "mixers" with the blades. It works great for me.



Do you have a link or a picture of what you're talking about? Is it this?
http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_29&product_id=260


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## cpfan (Mar 17, 2013)

As much as I like Fermtech products (auto-siphon, thief), I do not like that Whip. And I have read other comments from people who have had problems with it.

I use a Fizz-X in a drill to stir wine, mix additives, etc. But I find that a round-and-round motion (drill or stirring spoon) is not an effective degassing motion. For me, side-to-side works better. So yes, I use the drill as part of my mixing/degassing routine, but I primarily use the paddle end of a stirring spoon in a back-and-foth motion.

Steve


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## roblloyd (Mar 17, 2013)

I was using the back and forth with the spoon and it took forever. I think for about $50 you can get a vacuum pump and with some ingenuity you can degas easily. Harbor freight makes some. I have not tried them. I have one for woodworking. It's so easy to degass and rack and bottle with a vacuum. 
Is it necessary? No. Does it make it more fun and easier? Yes. I probably make more wine because of it. Filtering is also a huge bonus for that extra clarity.
You can also check eBay for used medical pumps. Sometimes there is a good deal on them.
In the end you will probably spend what it costs to buy the all in one that's on here but you can do it in stages as budget permits.
Or let your wife degass with the spoon once... She'll pull out the credit card for you


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## GeoS (Mar 17, 2013)

bds3 said:


> Do you have a link or a picture of what you're talking about? Is it this?
> http://brewandwinesupply.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=25_29&product_id=260



Yes, that is the whip I use. I haven't been using it for long, only a couple of times so far, but I have not had any issues with it. I thought it worked well.
I hold the bung above the opening of the carboy at first then I seal the bung in. Keep water in the bung at all times, it will lubricate the shaft and you will see the gas escaping. Slightly tilt the whip for best results and do not spin it for more than 20 to 30 seconds at a time. I also spin it in both directions.


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## Wild Duk (Mar 17, 2013)

Harbour freight you can get a brake bleeder for about $25 with coupon... It works great.... Just pump until your Carboy will hold a vacuum of about 15" hg without gas coming out....
It does tire out your hand though


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## BernardSmith (Mar 17, 2013)

I have never made wine from kits although I understand that the instructions ask you to degas. But with time all wines degas naturally. The question then is whether you have the patience to wait for the wine to degas by itself or you intend to have the wine in bottles in weeks. That said, you can probably find an inexpensive electrical vacuum pump on Ebay for about $30 or $40 dollars.. which would be powerful enough to create and hold a vacuum of about 25 inches without tiring your hand...


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## GeoS (Mar 17, 2013)

BernardSmith said:


> I have never made wine from kits although I understand that the instructions ask you to degas. But with time all wines degas naturally. The question then is whether you have the patience to wait for the wine to degas by itself or you intend to have the wine in bottles in weeks. That said, you can probably find an inexpensive electrical vacuum pump on Ebay for about $30 or $40 dollars.. which would be powerful enough to create and hold a vacuum of about 25 inches without tiring your hand...



Are you using inches hg? If so that's about 12 PSI. Might be able to get that from a Colman air mattress pump in reverse. I'll have to look into that.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 17, 2013)

GeoS
Yes I believe once you use a vacuum pump you will never look back again ! 
If you get the right size vacuum pump and attachements you will be able to degass, transfer, bottle and filter also.


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## Wild Duk (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes... It doesn't take a whole lot of pressure to degas it...


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## Abrnth3 (Mar 17, 2013)

I have never degassed my wine but have a vacuum pump and may try that with next one. question is what do you use to empty the carboy with out taking anymore Lee's then absolutly neccessary.


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## GeoS (Mar 18, 2013)

liboathfx said:


> Problem I found with non-vacuum degassing is that I got air into wine when stirring/whipping and I can't tell when the degassing is done because there's always bubbles forming. Some of them are Co2 but some are air bubbles I guess.



After whipping for a few min with the bung being held to allow air to escape from around it I sealed the bung and filled it with water then hit the drill for 20 sec and watched to see when only a bubble or two escaped between the bung and the whip shaft.


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## Elmer (Mar 22, 2013)

I took someone's advice and cut a plastic hanger, attached to a drill and used that as a whip.

Now my question is if I put the drill on high and create a vortex, does that add O2 to the wine, that then comes back as bubbles.

I whipped my newly made wine and had a ton of bubbles. I have done this 2 days each for 20 minutes.
I did not get as many bubbles when I whipped slowly as opposed to fast.

I then went and wipped my wine that has been aging for 3 years and got bubbles when I increased the drill speed.

So what is the right speed ?
&
How often and long do you drill?


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## GeoS (Mar 22, 2013)

Whipping will put air into the wine and a vortex will make it worse. They way I understand it is the gas in the wine from fermentation is not air but carbon dioxide, same as the bubbles in soda. When degassing you are getting the carbon dioxide out of the wine. A fast whipping motion will do this, same as whipping a soda would cause it to fizz. 

This is why I seal the bung, use a universal bung, and fill it with water. As the carbon dioxide escapes from the wine it builds pressure in the carboy, like shaking a soda can, and this pressure will escape between the bung and the shaft of the whip. You will see the bubbles in the water in the bung. When all of the carbon dioxide has Ben whipped out of the wine you will still see bubbles, but they are from air. You can whip this all day and you will not build up any pressure in the carboy, thus almost no bubbles in the bung.

Another way to tell is draw some wine and put it in a small jar with a lid. Seal the lid and shake the jar. When you open the jar you should the pressure escape. If there is no pressure build up then all of the gas is out of the wine.


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## Tess (Mar 24, 2013)

I just broke down and got one. Cant afford the all in one right now but I got a vacumn pump and racking kit to rack under vacumn. Actually saw the add for it on here and my arm was tired so I went for it!!! lol


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## Tess (Mar 24, 2013)

I managed to hurry and cancel that order. I didnt know you have to have an air compressor! I will be saving for the all in one I guess


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2013)

Looking forward to hearing from you Tess !


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## GeoS (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm looking at making my own degassing and racking system. Does anyone know where I can get a cheap vacuum pump. Preferable oil less, food or medical grade.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2013)

GeoS said:


> I'm looking at making my own degassing and racking system. Does anyone know where I can get a cheap vacuum pump. Preferable oil less, food or medical grade.



Geos - this topic is degassing without using a vacuum pump

there are some other topics on DIY on how to build a vacuum pump - not sure if they are oil less,food or medical grade - but the Allinone does have all those spec you just mentioned.


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## winedegasser (Mar 24, 2013)

GeoS said:


> I'm looking at making my own degassing and racking system. Does anyone know where I can get a cheap vacuum pump. Preferable oil less, food or medical grade.



Ebay is your friend 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=VACUUM PUMP OILLESS&_sop=15

The first one $59 buy it now is oilless and is rated at -27" but looks like need to be hooked up.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 24, 2013)

winedegasser said:


> Ebay is your friend
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=VACUUM PUMP OILLESS&_sop=15
> 
> The first one $59 buy it now is oilless and is rated at -27" but looks like need to be hooked up.




the only one I saw on that link was this one 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxi-Myst-C.../390547819318?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item5aee76cb36

It appears to be a air supply not a vacuum pump - unless it is already sold 
but it is 59 dollars and oilless pump 

Here is a complete step by step illustration on how to build a homemade vacuum pump set up 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/entries/

I hope this helps


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## GeoS (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks, I'll check it put.


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## winedegasser (Mar 25, 2013)

winedegasser said:


> Ebay is your friend
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=VACUUM PUMP OILLESS&_sop=15
> 
> The first one $59 buy it now is oilless and is rated at -27" but looks like need to be hooked up.



 Seems the one I was referring is already gone. 

Another thing to check before you buy is to ask the seller how many inch/Hg it can pull. Anything higher than -20" will not be effective (the lower the better). If the temperature is lower than 65F(18C) than get a pump that can do -25".


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## Brew and Wine Supply (Mar 25, 2013)

aside from letting it set for about a year, then end of a spoon, or the ones that attach to the end of a drill, there are two options left:
If you are built like the hulk you can put a solid bung in it and shake it, relieving the pressure every now and then.
Or
Strap it to the front seat of your car and drive down a bumpy road, also with a solid bung and relieving pressure every now and then

Last two not recommended.


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## GeoS (Mar 25, 2013)

winedegasser said:


> Seems the one I was referring is already gone.
> 
> Another thing to check before you buy is to ask the seller how many inch/Hg it can pull. Anything higher than -20" will not be effective (the lower the better). If the temperature is lower than 65F(18C) than get a pump that can do -25".



I would suspect you would want the vacuum to be between -30 and -20 inHG. But I'm not sure what the carboy can tolerate. I'll have to check that out, it's probably good but I'm curious.


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 25, 2013)

I and a lot others on this form believe that you should never go above 22in hg in vacuum, the pump designed for the Allinone will only go to 22 because I did not want to put the responsibility on the user to adjust the vacuum correctly without the possibilities of breaking a Carboy and getting hurt or simply boiling off your alcohol.


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## winedegasser (Mar 25, 2013)

GeoS said:


> I would suspect you would want the vacuum to be between -30 and -20 inHG. But I'm not sure what the carboy can tolerate. I'll have to check that out, it's probably good but I'm curious.



If you want to check my youtube videos on my website, I was degassing at -26 inHg in my garage and the temperature was at 10C (50F).


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## winedegasser (Mar 25, 2013)

You are absolutely right. at 74F, alcohol boil when vacuum pressure reaches -26 inHg. 

However I would like to give my users the flexibility to adjust the pressure because room temperature changes. 

I will put up a table of temperature/vacuum pressure on my website soon and include it in the manual. Thanks for bring it up. 

Now we are so off the topic  I may create a new post somewhere else later if anyone is interested. 



vacuumpumpman said:


> I and a lot others on this form believe that you should never go above 22in hg in vacuum, the pump designed for the Allinone will only go to 22 because I did not want to put the responsibility on the user to adjust the vacuum correctly without the possibilities of breaking a Carboy and getting hurt or simply boiling off your alcohol.


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## GeoS (Mar 25, 2013)

vacuumpumpman said:


> I and a lot others on this form believe that you should never go above 22in hg in vacuum, the pump designed for the Allinone will only go to 22 because I did not want to put the responsibility on the user to adjust the vacuum correctly without the possibilities of breaking a Carboy and getting hurt or simply boiling off your alcohol.



Ill, in my spare time, check the strength of the glass and it's thickness and see what its tensle strength is. The cylindrical shape will help bit I should be able to estimate how much pressure it can take. I'll let you know.


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## wpt-me (Mar 26, 2013)

I think I read that you don't want to vacuum degass in a Better bottle. Is
this correct??

bill


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 26, 2013)

That's correct

In my FAQ's it talks how you can use a Better Bottle in conjunction with a glass vessel


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## Elmer (Mar 26, 2013)

Brew and Wine Supply said:


> aside from letting it set for about a year, then end of a spoon, or the ones that attach to the end of a drill, there are two options left:
> If you are built like the hulk you can put a solid bung in it and shake it, relieving the pressure every now and then.
> Or
> Strap it to the front seat of your car and drive down a bumpy road, also with a solid bung and relieving pressure every now and then
> ...




I have actually picked up my wine and shook. Not only does it degass, but it is great for your pecks. (and blowing your back out). I must have had some issues to work out.

However I digress.
I am using a hanger (plastic) in my wine.
I just racked a batch of 3 year old Chianti.
I got a ton of bubble and foaming.
So I have been degassing daily, because I want to bottle in the next few weeks.

Is the excessive bubbles/foam from not being propperly degassed in the 1st place or from the racking (w/siphon) or am I creating the bubbles by whipping the wine?


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## Phador (Mar 26, 2013)

I've been considering the all-in-one pump. It looks like a great time saver, and it's probably a big help to a newbie...I'm sure after using it there would be no question a wine is degassed. 

I've been using a wine whip as of late. I'm wondering if people more often do it in a carboy or a bucket. The carboy has a much smaller opening which makes degassing more difficult and longer. Using the wine whip in a bucket would probably be faster as there is more surface area able to release the gas, but wouldn't the wine be more exposed to oxygen?


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 27, 2013)

Phador said:


> I've been considering the all-in-one pump. It looks like a great time saver, and it's probably a big help to a newbie...I'm sure after using it there would be no question a wine is degassed.
> 
> I've been using a wine whip as of late. I'm wondering if people more often do it in a carboy or a bucket. The carboy has a much smaller opening which makes degassing more difficult and longer. Using the wine whip in a bucket would probably be faster as there is more surface area able to release the gas, but wouldn't the wine be more exposed to oxygen?



I have seen people use both - I think it would be safer to use a bucket if you can. I say this because if you CO2 and stir it enough it will act like a volcano inside the carboy. I personally had this experience and holding the top of the carboy with my hands as wine was being sprayed everywhere !!! 
Just be careful not to scratch the sides of the bucket.
Or cause a vortex forcing air into your wine


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## winedegasser (Mar 27, 2013)

GeoS said:


> I would suspect you would want the vacuum to be between -30 and -20 inHG. But I'm not sure what the carboy can tolerate. I'll have to check that out, it's probably good but I'm curious.



FYI: I created a new post to discuss the vacuum pressure and room temperature. 

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/vacuum-degassing-how-much-vacuum-should-i-pull-why-37517/


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## vacuumpumpman (Mar 27, 2013)

winedegasser said:


> FYI: I created a new post to discuss the vacuum pressure and room temperature.
> 
> http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f71/vacuum-degassing-how-much-vacuum-should-i-pull-why-37517/


 

 You have a post talking about temperature and vacuum and degassing - not what he is asking for -
"
_I would suspect you would want the vacuum to be between -30 and -20 inHG. But I'm not sure what the carboy can tolerate. I'll have to check that out, it's probably good but I'm curious."_

_Yes I would be nervous myself bringing a carboy to those numbers also. Not sure where the breaking point would be - but I dont want to take a chance , so I dont suggest going above 22 in hg _


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## winedegasser (Mar 27, 2013)

Phador said:


> Using the wine whip in a bucket would probably be faster as there is more surface area able to release the gas, but wouldn't the wine be more exposed to oxygen?


I believe that the answer is yes.That is why most of the kit instruction suggest using carboy. More surface area to release Co2 also means more surface area to introduce air. It's a double–edged sword. 

But using bucket is more convenient. So it all comes down to personal preference. 

Another trick is to keep your whip to the bottom of the container, not the surface.


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## winedegasser (Mar 27, 2013)

vacuumpumpman said:


> You have a post talking about temperature and vacuum and degassing - not what he is asking for -
> "
> _I would suspect you would want the vacuum to be between -30 and -20 inHG. But I'm not sure what the carboy can tolerate. I'll have to check that out, it's probably good but I'm curious."_
> 
> _Yes I would be nervous myself bringing a carboy to those numbers also. Not sure where the breaking point would be - but I dont want to take a chance , so I dont suggest going above 22 in hg _



We both are. That's why I created that thread...


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## wineman2013 (Mar 27, 2013)

I use two very old tools to degass my wine .
A barrel and time . Rack wine into barrel , and wait .

Works every time .


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