# Starting to grow and grafted grapes



## Papa Giorgio (Jun 7, 2020)

Hi all,
So awhile ago I posted about planting my own grape vines. I did it. Jumped right in. Total novice! But they’re starting to grow. I just put in 4 cab sav. And I have 4 cab franc. Growing. See attached picture. Two questions. Number one, what is the next step with the cab franc(photo shown) 
do they look ok? Should I just let them go a bit?
The other question is

I just put in cab sav. They are grafted grapes and according to the place I bought they said I needed to ( mound soils over the knotted area until it grows then pull it back) is this necessary and of so what’s the reasoning behind it?


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## crushday (Jun 7, 2020)

I’m in almost the same stages as you. I’ll attempt to answer your questions. Question one: Let them grow until they reach your first wire (assuming you have a trellis installed) and pick the strongest looking one and clip off the other(s). You are not going to get grapes this year as grapes only will form on year two branches.

Question two: The grape wants to grow. Because it’s been grafted, you actually have two different grapes but you only want the grape vine above the graft. By burying the stock, even the graft ball, you limit the opportunity for everything below the soil because sunlight is a catalyst. If the only exposed part of the vine is what you want to grow you have a better chance of that taking all or most of the energy produced by the soil, light and water.


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## Papa Giorgio (Jun 8, 2020)

Thank you for responding crushday! Truth be told, I never installed a trellis as I didn't think they would actually grow! I am in the process of making one. I am putting in the first wire at about 3 ft or so? Also, what would happen if I did not mound the soil? Would there be a chance of more than one grape varieties or weaker roots/stems? I appreciate any and all help/advice. Thank you.


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## Xnke (Jun 8, 2020)

If you don't mound the soil, it will be fine. You will probably want to mound up soil or mulch or something during winter though.

Mounding up soil during a newly grafted vines first year or two of growth can cause scion roots to form, which can make the graft useless. They are grafted because they do not do well on their own roots, so we don't want the scion growing roots above the union.


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## Cynewulf (Jun 8, 2020)

Congrats on starting the adventure! I’d suggest a couple more things. First, with or without the trellis, you’ll want to have some stakes to tie them to to keep them off the ground and maybe start training the trunk. Maybe you were planning those with the trellis you’re working on. Second, I think you mentioned in a previous post that you’re in NY so you’ll definitely want to get your spray protocol figured out as those of us on the East coast deal with heavy disease and pest pressure. I grow some cab franc down in Virginia and lost a lot of my young vines in the first year to black rot, mildew, and Japanese beetles because I didn’t spray and they were quickly defoliated multiple times. Good luck!


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## Papa Giorgio (Jun 9, 2020)

Thank you all so much for the advice. Yes in NY. May I ask what you spray with? Is there anything natural I can use or us anyone heard of anything natural? For example I know some oils keep pests away.


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## Ct Winemaker (Jun 9, 2020)

Double A vineyard (where I purchased my vines) recommends covering the graft via mounding soil over the graft joint during winter, and then removing the mound in the spring, for the first two years. Reason is to protect the graft from extreme cold during a harsh winter. If you leave the graft covered you will develop roots from the scion (as others noted) thus rendering the grafted roots useless. I found that the graft joint needs to be at least an inch or two above the ground or roots will still extend down to earth (need to be removed).


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## Skashoon (Jun 9, 2020)

I’d leave a sucker or two near the base but pinch off the tips. First year you want the scion to grow to your first or second wire, depending upon growth habit. The main goal for first year vines is to develop the roots, then the trunk. Second year, develop your second trunk up to the wire. That sucker can become invaluable with cold-tender varieties or loss of your main trunk from other causes. Third year will be the first true cluster development and canopy management begins as well. Your trellis should be designed to accommodate the vines growth habit. Vinifera generally prefer VSP or some method of splitting the canopy, GDC, or some of the newer methods. Being in NY, consideration should be given to trunk protection over winter months, so you may want to keep them closer to the ground for burying, in which case a J trellis may be the best yet option. Get the book, Northern Winework by Tom Plocher for ideas on how to do that.


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## Cynewulf (Jun 9, 2020)

Papa Giorgio said:


> Thank you all so much for the advice. Yes in NY. May I ask what you spray with? Is there anything natural I can use or us anyone heard of anything natural? For example I know some oils keep pests away.


Sadly, the problem with natural sprays on the East coast is black rot as there doesn’t seem to be much that’s natural that can prevent it. I was hoping to do minimal spraying myself and gave up after dealing with the heavy disease pressure the first two years. There are the occasional vineyards out here that try to go organic using just copper and sulfur but it sounds like they really struggle. I spray with mancozeb, sulfur, and bacillus thuringiensis (BT, for caterpillars) early in the season, then switch to Captan, immunox, and sulfur later. Except for the BT to deal with a hornworm plague I had a couple years ago I try to avoid pesticides. Now in its fourth growing season, I feel like I’ve finally got a handle on the diseases and my vineyard is looking pretty healthy. I’m always jealous of the west coast folks who are able to get away with only a little sulfur here and there.


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## MHSKIBUM (Jan 29, 2021)

Papa Giorgio said:


> Hi all,
> So awhile ago I posted about planting my own grape vines. I did it. Jumped right in. Total novice! But they’re starting to grow. I just put in 4 cab sav. And I have 4 cab franc. Growing. See attached picture. Two questions. Number one, what is the next step with the cab franc(photo shown) View attachment 62099
> do they look ok? Should I just let them go a bit?
> The other question is
> ...


I'm encouraged by your efforts. I figured that with only enough space for about 10 vines, it wouldn't be worthwhile. I'll follow your progress to see if it makes sense to grow my own grapes. 
I looked at buying vines and unless I buy 100 of them, the price is very high. How did you acquire your vines and at what cost?


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## Papa Giorgio (Feb 2, 2021)

MHSKIBUM said:


> I'm encouraged by your efforts. I figured that with only enough space for about 10 vines, it wouldn't be worthwhile. I'll follow your progress to see if it makes sense to grow my own grapes.
> I looked at buying vines and unless I buy 100 of them, the price is very high. How did you acquire your vines and at what cost?


Hi just saw this. I am in NY and got them from a place called double a vineyards. They sell a lot for home growers. They run around 10-20 a vine. Not terrible. Mine took. I am interested to see what happens this year.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 2, 2021)

Double A is a good place to order from. Most growers I know buy from them. and you get a price break on 50 or more vines. Word of warning; they have REALLY LOW inventory this year. If you absolutely have to have a variety, either check with them directly or keep checking the website. I wanted 70 self rooted Traminette and they were out of stock for a few days. I checked back later the same week and they had enough available to fill my order. Fortunately I promised my husband we would not plant 600 vines this year. Just a couple hundred.


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## MHSKIBUM (Feb 2, 2021)

Papa Giorgio said:


> Hi just saw this. I am in NY and got them from a place called double a vineyards. They sell a lot for home growers. They run around 10-20 a vine. Not terrible. Mine took. I am interested to see what happens this year.


I live in Canada near the north shore of Lake Erie, which has some fine vineyards. 
The trouble with acquiring quality grapevines here is the garden stores stock varietals that are pretty lame compared to the ones from the companies that provide vineyard-size orders. If I buy 10 quality vines, I'll pay five or 10 times per vine as much as an order for 200. I'll keep looking while I watch your progress. 
By the way, any idea how many years it will take before you have a harvest that's worthwhile quantity-wise? I've also heard during vineyard tours here, in California, and in Europe that vines need additional years of maturation before the grapes reach their peak. I retired six years ago so I'm thinking I may not have as many years as I'd like to reap my effort.


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## VinesnBines (Feb 2, 2021)

MHSKIBUM said:


> By the way, any idea how many years it will take before you have a harvest that's worthwhile quantity-wise? I've also heard during vineyard tours here, in California, and in Europe that vines need additional years of maturation before the grapes reach their peak. I retired six years ago so I'm thinking I may not have as many years as I'd like to reap my effort.


The rule of thumb is not to try to get any harvest until the vines are three years old. So the vines I planted in 2019 (year one) should be mature enough for a light crop this year (2021). The year planted is first leaf, the next year is second leaf and some people try to get a crop - we had three killing frosts in 2020 so no chance of second leaf crop - and the next year is third leaf and so on.
The first few years of crop are light - third and fourth years...I'm not sure when a vine hits full potential - I've heard vineyard managers say s five or six year old vineyard is still young. 

Quite a while - is that an answer?


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## MHSKIBUM (Feb 2, 2021)

It's about as good an answer as I've heard anywhere. I read one news report about a California grower who said vines to replace those lost in the wildfires would take a generation to mature. 
Interesting side note: Napa Valley’s Hoopes Vineyard couldn't use smoke-tainted grapes for wine but teamed with Master Distiller Marianne Barnes to create a smoky brandy. The first bottles will be available sometime in 2021.


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