# Riesling from Blenheim Vineyards, New to Grapes



## MoldyGrapes (Apr 21, 2020)

All,

I was hoping to get a bit of advice, I have made 10 or so kit wines and wanted to expand my hobby by getting into frozen grape must and juice. My first attempt will be riesling from from Brehm Vineyards.

I have done some research and made the attached process, would anyone mind taking a look at it and seeing if I have erred in any way?

Large parts were pulled from the MoreWine! white guide.
https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wwhiw.pdf

The biggest question I have is on temperature. I have a basement, but no other way of keeping the fermentation stage cool, is a 65F cellar OK for this?

Also additives; as you can see from the my process, I will be using several, are all these actually helpful?

Thanks,

MoldyGrapes


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## cmason1957 (Apr 21, 2020)

First question, temp. 65 F is what you got, it would be better a bit colder, but it's what you got. You could freeze water bottles and put those into your fermenter, but I would just put it right on the basement floor, cover with an old blanket or something and let it rip.

Additives, never heard of or used Polycacel. If you have never introduced malolactic bacteria into your winemaking area, lysozyme probably isn't required either, since it is to inhibit malolactic fermentation. I would think you won't need any tartaric acid added, either, but for me that would be a taste determination, 3.23 ph is about perfect, the TA could use a bit of a increase, but again taste would decide for me. I've also never used Tannin Galalcool so I have no comment on it. Rest of it looks about like what I might do.


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## MoldyGrapes (Apr 21, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> First question, temp. 65 F is what you got, it would be better a bit colder, but it's what you got. You could freeze water bottles and put those into your fermenter, but I would just put it right on the basement floor, cover with an old blanket or something and let it rip.
> 
> Additives, never heard of or used Polycacel. If you have never introduced malolactic bacteria into your winemaking area, lysozyme probably isn't required either, since it is to inhibit malolactic fermentation. I would think you won't need any tartaric acid added, either, but for me that would be a taste determination, 3.23 ph is about perfect, the TA could use a bit of a increase, but again taste would decide for me. I've also never used Tannin Galalcool so I have no comment on it. Rest of it looks about like what I might do.



Thanks! I'll take another look at those additives, appreciate the once-over.


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## JohnT (Apr 22, 2020)

For white wines, I normally only undergo MLF for Chardonnay. I like a crisp Riesling (and not a buttery one). That crispness would be lost with MLF. This is just me, but I have a soft spot for a crisp Riesling.

For a Riesling, I also do not like to add any tannins and keep the PH low (a TA of .70 or even higher), but again, this is just my tastes.


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## MoldyGrapes (Apr 22, 2020)

JohnT said:


> For white wines, I normally only undergo MLF for Chardonnay. I like a crisp Riesling (and not a buttery one). That crispness would be lost with MLF. This is just me, but I have a soft spot for a crisp Riesling.
> 
> For a Riesling, I also do not like to add any tannins and keep the PH low (a TA of .70 or even higher), but again, this is just my tastes.



I probably should have been more clear, I plan to ferment till dry and forgo MLF. Thanks for the TA note, I'll keep that in mind when testing and tasting.

One more question, I was not planning to add any oak, either during fermentation or aging.

Most kits come with oak powder to add during fermentation, should I be adding some during fermentation of juice?

Thanks all for the info.

Regards,


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## cmason1957 (Apr 22, 2020)

Oak chips and dust in the primary don't provide much oak flavoring, but do provide tannins. You may want some tannin added at the begining to provide mouthfeel and structure. I haven't tasted an oaked reisling, some are available, but I wouldn't think it would be a good thing.


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## MoldyGrapes (Apr 22, 2020)

Just an update, I asked Brehm Vineyards for some input as well and Peter Brehm got back to me with the following.

_The essential additives follow - ferment from 22° to 10° as cool as possible.
This will help slow the fermentation and inhibit the loss of volitives.
-Yeast
-Fermaid K
-So2
-would recommend Lysozyme w/SO2 when dry or at your sweetness level.
-Bentonite to remove proteins - just before bottling.
I would not filter and fine only if necessary._

Seems I was going a bit additive heavy, so revised plan attached.

Thanks again all for the help.


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## MoldyGrapes (Apr 22, 2020)

cmason1957 said:


> Oak chips and dust in the primary don't provide much oak flavoring, but do provide tannins. You may want some tannin added at the begining to provide mouthfeel and structure. I haven't tasted an oaked reisling, some are available, but I wouldn't think it would be a good thing.



Thanks, didn't know if it was an "always done" type thing. Regards.


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## NorCal (Apr 22, 2020)

My approach to wine making is that less is more. I want a wine that reflects the fruit. I do not like to add anything, unless there is a problem you are trying to fix or prevent. From your latest list:

- I do like goferm/ferm-K as it can prevent H2S and promote a healthy ferment
- I would not add acid, your level would be fine for me. 
- I would not add Lysozyme, just keep your SO2 at 50ppm. 
- I would not add Opti-White, have not seen a need
- I would not add tannin galalcool, don't know what that is
- I would not add Bentonite, unless it is to solve a clearing problem. Give it 5 months in carboy/container and see if it needs it


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## MoldyGrapes (Apr 22, 2020)

NorCal said:


> My approach to wine making is that less is more. I want a wine that reflects the fruit. I do not like to add anything, unless there is a problem you are trying to fix or prevent. From your latest list:
> 
> - I do like goferm/ferm-K as it can prevent H2S and promote a healthy ferment
> - I would not add acid, your level would be fine for me.
> ...



OK, sounds like the prevailing wisdom is to keep it simple. I can do simple.

Last question, do you find the bottled wine to be relatively stable without adding Bentonite?

I don't mind wine diamonds or sediment, but would prefer the wine not to get cloudy or brown if the bottle warms up a bit.

Thanks.


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## NorCal (Apr 22, 2020)

MoldyGrapes said:


> OK, sounds like the prevailing wisdom is to keep it simple. I can do simple.
> 
> Last question, do you find the bottled wine to be relatively stable without adding Bentonite?
> 
> ...


Bentonite is a clearing agent so, if the wine is clear, there is no need. I do find that I need to cold stabilize my whites (fridge for a few weeks) to avoid the crystals.


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## Johnd (Apr 23, 2020)

NorCal said:


> Bentonite is a clearing agent so, if the wine is clear, there is no need. I do find that I need to cold stabilize my whites (fridge for a few weeks) to avoid the crystals.


 
Don’t mean to butt in here, but I think when @MoldyGrapes was asking about stability, it may have been protein stability, which bentonite is used to control. In addition to the good info NorCal provided about cold stabilization, might want to read up on the heat test for protein stability, the test will tell you if it’s needed In the wine.


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## NorCal (Apr 23, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Don’t mean to butt in here, but I think when @MoldyGrapes was asking about stability, it may have been protein stability, which bentonite is used to control. In addition to the good info NorCal provided about cold stabilization, might want to read up on the heat test for protein stability, the test will tell you if it’s needed In the wine.


I haven’t seen a clear wine drop sediment in the bottle, nor a wine go from clear to hazy in bottle. My experience is that once it is clear it will stay clear. Could be wrong, but I’ve always declared victory over protein stability once I get the wine to clear on its own in carboy. It is only when it doesn’t clear on its own is when I reach for a fining agent.


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## stickman (Apr 23, 2020)

Commercial winemakers usually get concerned about heat stability, because they have less control over storage conditions once the bottles leave the winery. Wine being transported or sitting on a grocery store shelf at elevated temperature, can throw a haze that might not otherwise happen if maintained in a proper cellar.


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## MoldyGrapes (May 3, 2020)

NorCal said:


> I haven’t seen a clear wine drop sediment in the bottle, nor a wine go from clear to hazy in bottle. My experience is that once it is clear it will stay clear. Could be wrong, but I’ve always declared victory over protein stability once I get the wine to clear on its own in carboy. It is only when it doesn’t clear on its own is when I reach for a fining agent.


Well, one more question, I purchased the wine bucket and pitched the yeast Thursday night, 4/30, and still do not see any activity, 5/03.

Kit wine is usually at least bubbling by now. Should I be able to see any activity or measure a change in Brix yet?

Concerned I may have stuck fermentation.


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## stickman (May 3, 2020)

If the juice was cold you may need one more day to see fermentation. What temperature was the yeast at, and what temperature was the bucket of juice at the time of pitching?


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## MoldyGrapes (May 3, 2020)

stickman said:


> If the juice was cold you may need one more day to see fermentation. What temperature was the yeast at, and what temperature was the bucket of juice at the time of pitching?


The wine was about 60F when pitched. I kinda messed up the rehydration a bit. Only used 25 ml water, room temperature.

Maintained the juice at cellar temp ~65F untill yesterday when I put a heater on it to try and get things going, now 77F.


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## mainshipfred (May 3, 2020)

The first thing I would do is take a gravity reading. If you have no change after increasing the temp something happened with the yeast and I would reinoculate. If you choose to rehydrate be careful of the temperatures. The water should be around 114 when adding the Go Ferm and around 104 when adding the yeast. Once you waited the 15 -20 minutes add some must a little at a time until you get the yeast slurry within 10 degrees of the must. This will also ensure the yeast is active.


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## MoldyGrapes (May 3, 2020)

mainshipfred said:


> The first thing I would do is take a gravity reading. If you have no change after increasing the temp something happened with the yeast and I would reinoculate. If you choose to rehydrate be careful of the temperatures. The water should be around 114 when adding the Go Ferm and around 104 when adding the yeast. Once you waited the 15 -20 minutes add some must a little at a time until you get the yeast slurry within 10 degrees of the must. This will also ensure the yeast is active.


Just took another SG reading.

Day 1 (initial, evening): 1.100
Day 2: 1.097
Day 3 (morning): 1.094

Am I just being impatient?


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## Boatboy24 (May 3, 2020)

MoldyGrapes said:


> Am I just being impatient?



Yep. 

Expect fermentation to take a week to ten days. Longer at cooler temps.


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## MoldyGrapes (May 7, 2020)

Boatboy24 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Expect fermentation to take a week to ten days. Longer at cooler temps.


Sooooooo....

Funny story; turns out instead of adding 23g of tartaric acid to the juice in the beginning to raise the TA level a bit I accidentally added 23g of Potassium Metabisulfite.

That is why the fermentation isn't going, I made cleaning solution, any thoughts on how I get this juice to be fermentable again?

According to a Titret test kit free SO2 is at or above 100 ppm now.

Edit: After some more calculation it's more like 1,600 ppm.

Thanks.


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## Boatboy24 (May 7, 2020)

Oh boy! You'll need to splash rack that in an attempt to 'blow off' some of that sulfite.


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## MoldyGrapes (May 7, 2020)

Is splash racking enough for this much SO2?

I have a drill mounted stirring tool for degassing kits, or is that too much?


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## Boatboy24 (May 7, 2020)

MoldyGrapes said:


> Is splash racking enough for this much SO2?
> 
> I have a drill mounted stirring tool for degassing kits, or is that too much?



Honestly, I'm not sure. May have to do it a couple times. But at least you have the means to measure the SO2 to confirm.


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## stickman (May 7, 2020)

The numbers indicate you may be closer to 800ppm which is still way high.

Here is a previous post on the subject of so2 removal.





Too Much Sulfite


I have a few wines that I must have double or somehow over sulfited. The worst is a 3 gallon carboy of a 2018 Merlot at 90 ppm and a 25 liter barrel of Cab Sauv at 81 ppm. I'm not overly worried about the Cab since it's a 2019 spring batch in a barrel but any ideas on lowering the level level of...




www.winemakingtalk.com


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## MoldyGrapes (May 7, 2020)

stickman said:


> The numbers indicate you may be closer to 800ppm which is still way high.
> 
> Here is a previous post on the subject of so2 removal.
> 
> ...



Going to try aerating the heck out of it, if that doesn't work I'll have to consider this a lesson learned and make sure to check twice, add once.

Thanks for the help.


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## Johnd (May 7, 2020)

MoldyGrapes said:


> Going to try aerating the heck out of it, if that doesn't work I'll have to consider this a lesson learned and make sure to check twice, add once.
> 
> Thanks for the help.



Hydrogen peroxide will blow the the sulfite out immediately and you’ll be ready to ferment. Can’t recall the dosage, do a little research, but at 1600 ppm, you’ll be splash racking for weeks.........


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## MoldyGrapes (May 9, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Hydrogen peroxide will blow the the sulfite out immediately and you’ll be ready to ferment. Can’t recall the dosage, do a little research, but at 1600 ppm, you’ll be splash racking for weeks.........


Well, you were right, I whipped the heck out of it and no change, so went the peroxide route. Ended up putting in 8 oz before the sulfites went down, but it worked!

Repitching the yeast now. Thanks for all the help.


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## MoldyGrapes (May 10, 2020)

It work!


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## Johnd (May 10, 2020)

MoldyGrapes said:


> Well, you were right, I whipped the heck out of it and no change, so went the peroxide route. Ended up putting in 8 oz before the sulfites went down, but it worked!
> 
> Repitching the yeast now. Thanks for all the help.
> 
> View attachment 60957


Happy I was able to help, hope it turns out great!!


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## MoldyGrapes (May 14, 2020)

Johnd said:


> Happy I was able to help, hope it turns out great!!



A couple more questions, for white wine, when is it customary to rack out of the primary fermentation bucket and into a carboy?

Wine kits usually have you do this after fermentation is about done ~0.998 SG or so, then conduct secondary fermentation in a carboy for 2 weeks.

If I'm fermenting till dry, not doing MLF or aging on the lees, should I follow the same schedule or rack off sooner, closer to 1.020 SG?

Thanks


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## Johnd (May 14, 2020)

MoldyGrapes said:


> A couple more questions, for white wine, when is it customary to rack out of the primary fermentation bucket and into a carboy?
> 
> Wine kits usually have you do this after fermentation is about done ~0.998 SG or so, then conduct secondary fermentation in a carboy for 2 weeks.
> 
> ...


You can follow the same process, racking to carboy around 1.000, or you can rack earlier, or you can do the whole ferment in a carboy. Just don’t put too much in there During the active part of fermentation, don’t want any overflows. 
Personally, I do my whites start to finish in 6 gallon carboys with 5 gallons in them, and keep it cool in my wine room at 58°F, a cool, long ferment to preserve volatile flavors and aromas.


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## MoldyGrapes (May 14, 2020)

Johnd said:


> You can follow the same process, racking to carboy around 1.000, or you can rack earlier, or you can do the whole ferment in a carboy. Just don’t put too much in there During the active part of fermentation, don’t want any overflows.
> Personally, I do my whites start to finish in 6 gallon carboys with 5 gallons in them, and keep it cool in my wine room at 58°F, a cool, long ferment to preserve volatile flavors and aromas.



Thanks!


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## MoldyGrapes (May 17, 2020)

Made it all the way dry; now to settle for two weeks, then add back some sulfite and into a 5 gallon carboy for aging.

After reading a thread here about keeping the total sulfite added under 200 ppm, and considering I both airated and heated this poor guy, I suspect my finished product won't be of the highest caliber, but at least it's not a bucket of warm sugar water anymore.


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## MoldyGrapes (Jun 2, 2020)

Wine was stabilized with 1/8 tsp potassium metabisulfite and 7g Lysozyme, topped up and is now ready to sit.

One more question, the PH is low ~3.04, so I was shooting for a pretty low free SO2, its now at 16 ppm, is this too low?




Thanks again for all the help.


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## stickman (Jun 2, 2020)

If your pH is really that low then 16ppm free is fine. You may want to check the SO2 level again in a few weeks and adjust back up if necessary.


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## MoldyGrapes (Jun 2, 2020)

stickman said:


> If your pH is really that low then 16ppm free is fine. You may want to check the SO2 level again in a few weeks and adjust back up if necessary.



Ok, I'll keep an eye on it, thanks!


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## MoldyGrapes (Dec 24, 2020)

Thanks to all your help the wine is bottled!

It's perhaps missing a bit of the acidity up front, but considering the abuse I put the juice through, not unexpected.

The nose is fantastic, though I've only done kit wine before.

We are calling it Vin Aseptise' which means sanitized wine in french.


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