# Anyone using oak barrels?



## p funky (Oct 23, 2006)

So I'm considering buying one or two 5-gallon American white oak barrels (not too expensive, and shipping is gloriously free!).

Do any of you use them now? If so, for what sorts of wines? I was thinking some (or all) meads might do well in a barrel, and naturally wines will as well, but... what sort?

(Huzzah! First post in this sub-forum!)


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## Caplan (Oct 23, 2006)

p funky said:


> So I'm considering buying one or two 5-gallon American white oak barrels (not too expensive, and shipping is gloriously free!).
> 
> Do any of you use them now? If so, for what sorts of wines? I was thinking some (or all) meads might do well in a barrel, and naturally wines will as well, but... what sort?
> 
> (Huzzah! First post in this sub-forum!)


Anything you fancy with bit of 'oaky-ness' will work if you want to experiment. - White/Red wine, Port and Sherry will all work. Are they new barrels? If so you need to ensure that the oak barrels are watertight before you do anything with them, filling them with clean water to ensure they swell enough to be really seal proof. If they aren't new you have to be sure nothing nasty has been stored in them and if not then take account of it's 'previous occupant'. If you don't like bourbon (for example) it'll take a while to get rid of it's notes - all personal taste I guess. 
On a home wine making scale I'd suggest ageing in the cask for a few months just for flavour and then moving it to glass carboy or bottles for an 'oak conditioned' feel but real control on the overall storage.


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## p funky (Oct 23, 2006)

Yes- that sounds very fine!

It probably would be a new barrel 
(from www.oldworldbarrel.com - as long as I'm going to bring it up), and I have read up on conditioning it to get ready.

I have a fig sherry that I think would do very nicely, as well as a mead coming up. 

How much of one batch's qualities (for instance, a red wine) would be transferred to the next batch (say, a light-flavored mead)? What can I do to clean it out between uses to prevent most of the flavor/aroma transfer?


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## Caplan (Oct 23, 2006)

The whole idea with new oak barrels is not to try and 'clean them out' it's to 'lay flavours down' with the oak. If they're cheap enough buy a couple and use one for 'red wine/sherry/port' brews and the other for 'white wine/mead' brews.


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## p funky (Oct 23, 2006)

Ahhh... so it's sort of the Yi Xing tea pots, where you keep brewing the same style of tea in there, and it reinforces the flavor/aroma?

(I heart yi xing teapots)


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## Caplan (Oct 24, 2006)

That's it exactly - I always think of well seasoned woks when trying to describe it but the yixing teapot works better!


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## MUMBA (Oct 29, 2006)

*oak*

i allso use oak barrels to make red wines if it is a new barrel i would not leave 

it in there to long or it will pick up to much of an oak flavor


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## Caplan (Oct 31, 2006)

Good point MUMBA. Too much oak flavour isn't good. I still avoid 'Oaked Chardonnays' after tasting too many of the Australian ones back in the mid 90's!


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## TxBrew (Nov 1, 2006)

How much are you paying per barrel?


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## winemaker81 (Nov 5, 2006)

p funky said:


> So I'm considering buying one or two 5-gallon American white oak barrels (not too expensive, and shipping is gloriously free!).
> 
> Do any of you use them now? If so, for what sorts of wines? I was thinking some (or all) meads might do well in a barrel, and naturally wines will as well, but... what sort?
> 
> (Huzzah! First post in this sub-forum!)



Be careful of aging in small barrels. The ratio of interior surface area to volume is significantly greater than in larger barrels -- you could get FAR more oak flavor than you want.

Bryan


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## enologico (Nov 6, 2006)

*Barrels?*

I strongly recommendo to use chips or stavin instead barrels, since the control of sirface its easer and you minimizes the risk of overwood the wine.

Cheers


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## DVIL (Jan 28, 2007)

*Trust*

If you find a trusted winery they would probably sell you one or three fairly cheap I use 3 59 gallon barrels and where I am from wineries are a dime a dozen the used barrels are best if you don't like alot of oak


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## FentonCellars (Feb 22, 2007)

I heard that any barrel that is 4 or more years old doesn't release anymore oak flavor. Is that true? If so, then if I bought a 4+ year old barrel, wouldn't that work? 

Maybe another option... if I bought a new barrel, do they have rubber/plastic bladders that your wine sits in, allowing you to use a barrel for storage without any possible oaking?


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## FentonCellars (Feb 26, 2007)

I found some barrels that are lined in wax or Paraffin. 

Paraffin is: It is mostly found as a white, odorless, tasteless, waxy solid, with a typical melting point between about 47 °C and 64 °C. It is insoluble in water, but soluble in ether, benzene, and certain esters. Paraffin is unaffected by most common chemical reagents, but burns readily.


"Paraffin lined barrels are commonly used with liquids that do not need the aroma, color or flavor that charred and toasted barrels provide." Check them out....

http://www.bucket-outlet.com/oakbarrels.htm

Could I use this for my 5 gallons of kit wine for aging/storage in the barrel that I don't wish to add flavor, color or aroma to?


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## smurfe (Feb 26, 2007)

FentonCellars said:


> I found some barrels that are lined in wax or Paraffin.
> 
> Paraffin is: It is mostly found as a white, odorless, tasteless, waxy solid, with a typical melting point between about 47 °C and 64 °C. It is insoluble in water, but soluble in ether, benzene, and certain esters. Paraffin is unaffected by most common chemical reagents, but burns readily.
> 
> ...



I don't see why you couldn't but I would have to ask why unless they were cheaper than a 5 gallon carboy. I don't think you will see any different results or benefits and IMHO, the glass would be safer and easier to clean and sanitize. 

Smurfe


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## FentonCellars (Feb 26, 2007)

I've been looking for this and have not found it until now. As long as it does the same thing and adds some look and feel of the wine cellar that I'm making in the basement, then I'm all about it. It would look cool to see my wine stored in wood barrels then in glass carboys. Plus, you wouldn't need to cover the glass as wood keeps out the UV/light. I'm still not sure. Maybe I will buy one and try it and let everyone know how it goes.


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## smurfe (Feb 27, 2007)

Sounds good, Give it a try. I just look at things from an economical factor. I don't know what one of these barrels cost but I would think you could buy a whole bunch of carboys for what a barrel would cost. An old T-Shirt to cover a carboy is cheap to. Hope it works out well for you.

Smurfe


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## FentonCellars (Jun 20, 2007)

Ok, so it has been some time since I last posted to this forum... I have not been able to buy this yet, since I've been sinking money into the home improvements (hence why I've been absent for a while). I called the Bucket Outlet and the customer service rep had no idea if I could use the Paraffin lined barrels. She did mention the Toasted Oak Win Barrels (http://www.bucket-outlet.com/toastedbarrels.htm) but I'm not sold on that, since I don't know the calculation needed to know how long to store wine in the sizes they sell. Does anyone know? For 5 gallons, how long does it get stored in a barrel before it needs to be bottled? If I knew that, I'd be more comfortable with it.


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## Wine Maker (Jun 24, 2007)

*Toasted oak barrels*

I use medium toasted American Oak barrels. I currently have two 30 gal barrels. I aged my wine about 4 months in the barrels and got a really nice oak flavor. I'll go about 6 months next time to get a little more flavoring. Paraffin barrels are lined so you won't get much oak (if any) flavoring. The most important thing with oak barrels is that you have to properly maintain them or you will get bacteria in the barrels, if that happens you may as well throw them out. Go to www.morebeer.com and look for the link MoreWine. They have really good user guides you can download for free. Extremely useful information.

When I am finished aging in the barrels I transfer the wine to stainless steel tanks (you can tranfer to 5 gal glass carboys), until I am ready to bottle. This way I can rack my wine once or twice before bottling.


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## BarrelMan (Sep 6, 2010)

*A Beautiful Relationship With Wine And Oak Barrels*

One of the biggest influences on the flavour of wine is whether it has been matured, or even just stored, in oak. There are people who are prejudiced against oaked wine and will complain of even the slightest hint of oak, but many experts agree that if a wine has been carefully oaked it does not taste of wood, but more like a wine that has had its flavour subtly enhanced.

Oak aging of wine occurs when the wine has been fermented and/or aged in oak casks so that the flavour of the surrounding wood infuses some of its woodiness into the liquid. The resulting wine will usually taste richer, with creamy vanilla undertones and sometimes a little woody or even sawdusty. The oak is a type of seasoning for wine and getting the optimum level of oaky flavour is vital if a wine is to taste good at the end. Oak aging usually takes place in small oak barrels that hold 225 litres, being replaced every two or three years as newer barrels give the best flavour.

Oak is considered to be the most ideal wood for this aging as it not only has superb watertight qualities but gives the right sort of flavours,aromas and textures to enhance the wine. But there are different types of oak that offer certain distinctive flavourings. The most commonly used are the highly-prized, tightly-grained French oak which gives a subtle hint of oakiness, whilst American oak gives a more obvious vanilla character to the wine. Consequently wines that are more powerful in flavour tend to be stored in American oak such as Rioja, North and South American and Australian varieties. Other factors that allow oak aging to affect a wine’s taste are the size of the barrels, (larger ones giving less flavour), the age of the wood used, the actual time the wine spends within the cask, and whether the barrels have been toasted (i.e. lightly burned on the inside).

Now the fashion is for lightly oaked wines and winemakers are producing more subtle, elegant flavours. Red wines are often aged in oak, which add the required extra body and richness, with hints of wood-spice, cream and tannin. Soft light reds such as Beaujolais are typically unoaked, but the richer more powerful styles such as fine red Bordeaux or Californian Cabernet Sauvignon are almost always aged in oak. Similarly Rioja is oak aged for a long time to give it a distinct mellow creaminess. Port and Madeira are wood-aged and have an obvious hint of oak, whilst even some Champagnes are aged for a short time in oak barrels, although they never taste very oaky, just a bit more full-bodied. Some premium sweet white wines are also oak aged.


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## Wade E (Sep 6, 2010)

I did not know that some Champagnes were oak aged. I really dont like many at all whtes wines oaked but love the oak monster on a big red!


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## JohnT (Sep 8, 2010)

winemaker81 said:


> Be careful of aging in small barrels. The ratio of interior surface area to volume is significantly greater than in larger barrels -- you could get FAR more oak flavor than you want.
> 
> Bryan



I agree! 

We tried to age in a 5 gal oak barrel and realized that it was a big mistake. 

ask yourself this... WHY???

we were more interested in having a wooden keg to look at than actually improving the wine. The keg had such small volume and high surface area, that we needed to top it off every 2 weeks. In the end, the wine got too much oxidation. NEVER AGAIN!!!! 

My advise is to either go with a much bigger volume (say 10 times bigger) or just simply keep it in the glass and experiment with oak cubes (euro med toast is my favorite). If you use oak cubes, think of the money left over for more grapes!. 

johnT.


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## BarrelMan (Sep 8, 2010)

I think you can better control the amount of color and flavor the wood imparts by using a barrel; in a barrel you can start tasting in just a few days and continue tasting ever so often till you get what you want; I don't know if you can do that with oak cubes. In the smaller new barrels two weeks is a long time, it can really impart a lot in that amount of time. But the smaller and newer the barrel the less time needed to mature.
But one must learn a lot about barrels and the climate where the barrel is kept is very important too, if it's too dry the barrel will soak up more of the liquid inside.


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## JohnT (Sep 8, 2010)

Barrelman, 

I am not sure what you mean. 

Why would I not be able to taste the wine? 

I can taste the wine, and when I feel there is enough oak flavor, I can then rack the wine off of the oak (thus stopping the process). I never let the wine sit on cubes for more than 6 - 8 weeks, and if not enough oak flavor in the wine, I can then start the process over again.


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## BarrelMan (Sep 8, 2010)

White oak barrels also serve another purpose; beer and wine has oils and about 7%of bad alcohols including methanol, the charred oak barrel reduces the percent of bad alcohol and oils which are in large part responsible for hangovers. I suppose charred oak cubes might do the same, and since it doesn't have to be watertight then perhaps cubes of red oak could be used as well instead of more expensive white oak.

Maybe all those barrels we see in the breweries, wineries and distilleries are just props and they are actually using cheap red oak wood chips?

All I know for sure is the results I get using my white oak barrels; I start with the best product I can come up with, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, and after it comes out of the barrel it is so good I get real greedy with it.


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## Wade E (Sep 8, 2010)

Just like any barrel the firdt uses will need to come out much earlier and as time goes on the wine will be able to stay in much longer. Micro-oxygenation is the main use of a barrel and this cant be replicated in glass or steel.


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## JohnT (Sep 9, 2010)

Wade, 

Couldn't Micro-oxygenation also be acchieved by bottle aging with cork? Could simple splash racking give the same result? perhaps a combo of the two? or will barrels be the only was to achieve this?

johnT


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## JohnT (Sep 9, 2010)

BarrelMan said:


> White oak barrels also serve another purpose; beer and wine has oils and about 7%of bad alcohols including methanol, the charred oak barrel reduces the percent of bad alcohol and oils which are in large part responsible for hangovers. I suppose charred oak cubes might do the same, and since it doesn't have to be watertight then perhaps cubes of red oak could be used as well instead of more expensive white oak.
> 
> Maybe all those barrels we see in the breweries, wineries and distilleries are just props and they are actually using cheap red oak wood chips?
> 
> All I know for sure is the results I get using my white oak barrels; I start with the best product I can come up with, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, and after it comes out of the barrel it is so good I get real greedy with it.





I have yet to see any wooden kegs used for storing beer. Bud says "beachwood aged" by throwing slats of beachwood into SS Storage tanks. I do not know of any micro-brewery that uses wooden kegs. 

There are many, many micro wineries that do not use kegs and opt for cubes. The cost of kegs is simply prohibitive. I know that only a hand full of wineries out on the north shore of LI and in the finger lakes of NY opt for kegs for this very reason. 

Distilleries use kegs in order to obtain color as well as flavor. The nature of high octane whiskey makes it better suited to the use of kegs.

My point is that the expense for 5 gals of wine is not worth the reward and risk. For larger volumes of wine, kegs may make more sense. 

johnT.


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## BarrelMan (Sep 9, 2010)

Please see my new thread Oak Aged Beers under Beer making, will make your mouth water


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## Wade E (Sep 9, 2010)

Micro oxygentation ca really only be acheived in barrels as the corks arent poous enough and we wouldnt want them to be either. Barrel aging also lets the wine concentrate alsowhick makes a wine fuller bodied.


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## Rock (Sep 9, 2010)

Wade E said:


> Micro oxygentation ca really only be acheived in barrels as the corks arent poous enough and we wouldnt want them to be either. Barrel aging also lets the wine concentrate alsowhick makes a wine fuller bodied.



I couldnt agree more Wade hit this on the head!I have new and re-coped barrels.30and15 gallon barrels 2 of each.So i never used a 5.I aged a cab/merlot in a new french oak 30 gallon 8 months transferred the wine into a 3 year old barrel for micro-oxgen.Also have wines going on 12-14 months in different barrels.Bottled some wines aged in glass with oak cubes,when you do side by side comparison the barrel wins hands down.Big difference Oak Barrels Rule


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## JohnT (Sep 10, 2010)

Guys, 

This WINEMAKINGTALK site is fantastic. I went into this thread very skeptical of oak barrels, but after the last two posts, I am not so sure anymore. 

A couple of weeks ago, I got my hands on a clean used winebarrel to use as a piece of furnature (59 gallons for $90). I now think that, perhaps, I will give it a try!!!!! 

That said, do any of you have any recomendations on cleaning and preperation (prior to fill)? Soaking? Perhaps washing out with SO2 solution?


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## winemaker_3352 (Sep 10, 2010)

The only thing that i have heard before - is that when it is not in use it should be stored with water to avoid the wood from drying up and leaking.

Again - that is just what i read somewhere long ago.


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## Rock (Sep 10, 2010)

Hey John,wine barrels are expensive,90bucks yea you just use for flower pots.Barrels should always be filled,www.morewine.com has instructions on barrel management.I have 2- 30 gallon re generated barrels french oak,1 brand new 30 gallon french oak and a 15 american oak and share 1 with my brothers,who also have barrels of their own.Its diffently more work cleaning and when racking is also alot of work but well worth the out come.If your interested you should try maybe a recoop or regenerated barrel,but keep in mind make sure you clean and sanitize like you would normally,you will love the wine that you get,and always keep your barrel filled.


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## rodo (Sep 10, 2010)

I agree with Rock, this is about as good a guide to the care of oak barrels as I have found, here is the link http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wobcg.pdf

Here is the link to MoreWine's page of guides lots of good info there, 
http://morewinemaking.com/content/manuals


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## JohnT (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks everybody. I am determined to keep an open mind. 

Like I said before, I bought the cask to use as furnature (about 3 weeks ago). The bung was tightly sealed (which I think is a very good sign). 

I did do one thing though. Rather then purchase a new steel stand for the cask, I made one out of an 8 foot 2/6. Works well. 

I followed the directions in the MOREWINE) post (again, thanks) and started by first pouring about 10 - 15 gals of light SO2 solution into the cask. Spun the cask every minute or so for about an hour. stood the cask up so that both barrel heads could get soaked. 

after sveral hours, I then proceeded to fill the barrel. It sure did leak (projectile) for the first several hours. I just kept topping it off. Slowly, the leaks stopped. Now the cask is holding water and the whole outside of the cask is BONE DRY. It is currently filled to the brim.

ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: 

My plan is to ferment in glass, then put the wine into the barrel on the first racking. I currently have the cask filled with water. I plan to keep water/SO2 solution in the cask until then, while changing the water every week. Does anybody see any problems with this?????? 


What do you folks use to seal the barrel (bung hole)? If the wine is rather new, but fermentation is complete, shouldn't I still be using a rubber stopper and fermentation lock? Are there any risks of pressure buildup if I seal with a cork bung? Any reason for NOT using a rubber stopper and trap?


Again, thanks for all of the advice. I am really excited to see how the wine truns out. 

johnT.


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## Rock (Sep 14, 2010)

John,i do the same as your plan so i dont have a problem with it.2nd i use an airlock then go over to a rubber cork that fits your barrel.You will want to be able to check your wine and keep your barrel full at all times.What kind of oak is your barrel?What kind of toast?and how many gallons is it? 
Good Luck to you!!


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## Wade E (Sep 14, 2010)

Here is a good chart to bung sizes.
http://www.finevinewines.com/Bung_Sizing_Chart.htm
and here is a good place to buy them. I would use the silicone rubber stopper.
http://www.finevinewines.com/index.htm
Next year I will be getting a fw barrels, the crusher/destemmer and press set me back enough this year!


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## Tom (Sep 14, 2010)

Was @ Gino's picking up my juice and they had Oak Bourbon Whiskey Barrels for sale @ $120. Now my homebrew club are considering it for Brew. What would Wine taste like in a bourbon Barrel?


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## Rock (Sep 14, 2010)

Tom said:


> Was @ Gino's picking up my juice and they had Oak Bourbon Whiskey Barrels for sale @ $120. Now my homebrew club are considering it for Brew. What would Wine taste like in a bourbon Barrel?


I dont want to upset anybody,so id rather not say.


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## Tom (Sep 14, 2010)

yea didnt think its a good idea...


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## BarrelMan (Sep 14, 2010)

If I were working with an old barrel I bought for furniture I would mark all the staves and then take it apart and grind out the inside down to clean wood then put it back together without one end and then take some white oak chips and build a fire, after the chips were burning good I would throw them inside the barrel laying down, I would roll the barrel around and move the burning chips around until the whole inside of the barrel were charred again, then I would close the barrel and use it.


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## JohnT (Sep 15, 2010)

Rock said:


> John,i do the same as your plan so i dont have a problem with it.2nd i use an airlock then go over to a rubber cork that fits your barrel.You will want to be able to check your wine and keep your barrel full at all times.What kind of oak is your barrel?What kind of toast?and how many gallons is it?
> Good Luck to you!!



It is american oak, 59 gallons, and medium toast. Since it is an old barrel, I do not think that I will get any wood flavor, but we will see.


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## JohnT (Sep 15, 2010)

BarrelMan said:


> If I were working with an old barrel I bought for furniture I would mark all the staves and then take it apart and grind out the inside down to clean wood then put it back together without one end and then take some white oak chips and build a fire, after the chips were burning good I would throw them inside the barrel laying down, I would roll the barrel around and move the burning chips around until the whole inside of the barrel were charred again, then I would close the barrel and use it.



When I say furnature, I mean that I bought it at my wine supply store. It was marked down several times. My intent was to use it as a table when I bought it. It was not finished and was being sold for use in winemaking. 

TAKE IT APART??? Boy, you have a lot of faith in me! I am just mastering the art of getting the thing swelled back up so that it holds water!


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## JohnT (Sep 16, 2010)

Rock said:


> Hey John,wine barrels are expensive,90bucks yea you just use for flower pots.Barrels should always be filled,www.morewine.com has instructions on barrel management.I have 2- 30 gallon re generated barrels french oak,1 brand new 30 gallon french oak and a 15 american oak and share 1 with my brothers,who also have barrels of their own.Its diffently more work cleaning and when racking is also alot of work but well worth the out come.If your interested you should try maybe a recoop or regenerated barrel,but keep in mind make sure you clean and sanitize like you would normally,you will love the wine that you get,and always keep your barrel filled.



This barrel was on "double mark down". It normally costs much more. 
I want to keep an open mind and give it a try. Depending on the results, I may very well turn the cask into a couple of flower pots. We'll see.


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## JohnT (Sep 16, 2010)

*One last question*

How often should a cask be checked/topped off? 

Also, how high do you fill your casks? I imagine that you should fill them as full as possible.


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## Flame145 (Oct 18, 2010)

*barrel cleaning*

does anyone know if you use sulfur sticks between rackings. I have 53 gallons of red in a white oak medium toast barrel. after racking and you clean the barrel out with fresh water, do you need to burn a sulfur stick prior to putting the wine back into barrel ????? Sorry if that was a stupid question. I read the treatment of oak barrels from more wine but no one talks about what to do for treatment at rackings other than wash your barrel out.


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## Wade E (Oct 24, 2010)

Not needed unlss you think there is a problem. Just make up a S02 solution of 3 tbls per gallon along with 3 tbls of citric acid and let tyat sit in the barrel for a day swishing it around and youll be good to go.


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## rodo (Oct 25, 2010)

The barrel always needs to be dry before burning the sulfur.


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## MFC (Nov 15, 2010)

Tom said:


> yea didnt think its a good idea...




Just an FYI my grandfather made his wine in whiskey barrels. Tasted awesome. A smokey flavor but awesome. Try fortisimo wine it's that type of flavoring.


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