# Aging in Carboy vs bottling



## tonyportale (Aug 4, 2012)

Hello,
I've been making wine for three years so I'm still considered a novice. I understand the reasoning for aging the wine in a carboy and adding KMeta every 3-4 months or so to keep the wine from spoiling. My question is what keeps the wine from spoiling after it is bottled? I"ve got some wine aging over a year now in bottles. There is no way to get KMeta in the bottles after they are corked. I'm sure there is a simple answer. I just don't have enough experience to know why.
Thank you,
Tony


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 4, 2012)

Your first premise is wrong. Which makes you come up with the question. First you do not lose So2 in a Carboy so there is no need to add it every 3-4 months unless you rack the wine in it. Then you will lose some and you will want to add. Just prior to bottling you should add another dose as you will lose some in the process of bottling. As far as aging there are reasons to keep wine in a carboy but aging is not one of them. Settling of fine lees, degassing or loosing co2, oaking, blending, and racking are reasons to keep wine in a carboy but if those are not issues then the wine should be bottled. Wine ages quicker in smaller containers. So if that is your goal then get the wine out of the carboy and into bottles. All you are doing is wasting time keeping it in a carboy.
Malvina


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## rjb222 (Aug 4, 2012)

This is a question of oxygen quantity available. K-meta dissipates out through the surface of a wine even if you are topped up with a minimal of head space so you are correct that every 3-4 months add 1/4 tsp K-Meta. this is a general rule to follow unless you have a sulfite tester that is accurate so as you can keep your wine at about 50ppm. In a bottle the cork is a better seal than a airlock so you will not loose as much to the outside world as from a airlock a one way valve. With a proper cork micro oxidization is a good thing. The bulk aging will give you a uniform wine that is the same from bottle to bottle where as with bottling early your wine will vary a bit from bottle to bottle. Plus it is harder to test a carboy if you want to keep your head space up so your wine will have a better chance to last till it is properly aged


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 4, 2012)

rjb222 said:


> This is a question of oxygen quantity available. K-meta dissipates out through the surface of a wine even if you are topped up with a minimal of head space so you are correct that every 3-4 months add 1/4 tsp K-Meta. this is a general rule to follow unless you have a sulfite tester that is accurate so as you can keep your wine at about 50ppm. In a bottle the cork is a better seal than a airlock so you will not loose as much to the outside world as from a airlock a one way valve. With a proper cork micro oxidization is a good thing. The bulk aging will give you a uniform wine that is the same from bottle to bottle where as with bottling early your wine will vary a bit from bottle to bottle. Plus it is harder to test a carboy if you want to keep your head space up so your wine will have a better chance to last till it is properly aged



I have tested S02 in carboys with air locks and if you add 40ppm every 3 months you will be over 120 parts within a year. It is a myth that bulk aging in a carboy has any effect on uniformity. In fact the wine changes very little in a 5 gallon volume as opposed to a 750ml bottle. Carboy aging is a waste of time if you are finished doing anything to the wine in question. 
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 15, 2012)

I recently order a SC-300 for testing and don't have a clue what to do first. I have several, 6 gallon carboys that been ageing at 50-55F for 10 months now. What do you recommend I test? I also want to protect the wine before bottling what do you recommend for ppm CO2 40ppm , 50ppm. Second question ...when I filter my wine I filter into another carboy then I bottle; do I test my wine and adjust it on the last carboy which would be after filtering.

Thanks, I need to make more room for a new season batch of wine.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 15, 2012)

Great purchase. Now you have all you need to answer the question. First you need to know the ph of the wine. Then using a .8 mole calculation you can use the chart below or find a Calculator on line to determine the amount of Kmeta you need to add. Based on 5 gallons, For example if your PH is 3.5 you would need 40mg/liter Or expressed at 40 ppm which equals 1.31 grams or 1/4 teaspoon. You adjust what you have now and after filtering 24 hours prior to bottling you adjust again remembering to subtact what you already have from the total when you test the wine after filtering.


Wine pH Free SO2 Needed for
0.8 mg/L Molecular SO2
2.90 11 mg/L
3.00 13 mg/L
3.10 16 mg/L
3.20 21 mg/L
3.30 26 mg/L
3.40 32 mg/L
3.50 40 mg/L
3.60 50 mg/L
3.70 63 mg/L
3.80 79 mg/L
3.90 99 mg/L
4.00 125 mg/L

Malvina


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## BobF (Aug 15, 2012)

When you test, using Mal's example, you may find you already have some amount in the wine. 40 is the total required. Subtract the amount measured from the 40 required to determine how much to add.


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## andrewwon (Aug 16, 2012)

Some easy ways to keep wine from spoiling:
1.Keep it in the dark.
2.Store corked wine bottles on their sides
3.Keep the temperature constant
4.Don't move the wine
5.Keep the humidity at around 70%
6.Isolate the wine
7.Store for an appropriate amount of time.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 16, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Your first premise is wrong. Which makes you come up with the question. First you do not lose So2 in a Carboy so there is no need to add it every 3-4 months unless you rack the wine in it. Then you will lose some and you will want to add. Just prior to bottling you should add another dose as you will lose some in the process of bottling. As far as aging there are reasons to keep wine in a carboy but aging is not one of them. Settling of fine lees, degassing or loosing co2, oaking, blending, and racking are reasons to keep wine in a carboy but if those are not issues then the wine should be bottled. Wine ages quicker in smaller containers. So if that is your goal then get the wine out of the carboy and into bottles. All you are doing is wasting time keeping it in a carboy.
> Malvina


 
I totally agree with Malvina and very few of my wines are in carboys more then 6 months.


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## BobF (Aug 16, 2012)

I almost agree 

Free SO2 is what we're really concerned about having sufficient levels of. A large portion of the very first SO2 addition will be bound up in a relatively short time. Technically the SO2 isn't gone, but it's also not free.

As the various wine constituents that bind with SO2 get bound, less and less of the subsequent additions get bound this way.

IOW, even without racking, free SO2 can be low after a period of time sitting in a carboy.


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## seth8530 (Aug 16, 2012)

Im gona give my vote for aging in a carboy mainly due to the fact that larger volumes of liquid are less vulnerable to temperature spikes. which makes for better aging.


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## Runningwolf (Aug 16, 2012)

Keep in mind Bob that I still rack several times after fermentation on which the wine is being tested and S02 added. I'm just not a believer in leaving my wine in a carboy for a year like others if not necessary. I know a lot of people do age for very long periods in carboys.


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## bob1 (Aug 16, 2012)

I dont have a filter so at about 4-6 months seems to me I end up with the carboy getting a good dusting. So if I bottled earlier it would have done this in the bottle. Earlier in wine making mine where like this at 6 months(bottles) bottling at 3 months. Other than looks the wine still tasted good.


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## thesnow (Aug 16, 2012)

Sorry I still don't get it, once i use the sc-300. Which the video shows how to get your readings that's great I understand. But nothing explains step by step in plain English how to correct your Free SO2. 
I never did this. I do like many I add 1/4 meta sulfite to a 23L carboy every six months. 
What I understand is you need to get the pH reading ; if its 3.4 (30ppm) then you want to bring it up for red wine to 40ppm (or maybe 50 )(White wine higher) So your looking at adding 10ppm to get your goal of 40ppm. if this example is correct using the calculator online I need in put into my carboy .40 grams meta sulifite
Then wait 24 hrs and do the test again before bottling. So after waiting 24 hrs let's say i got 35ppm then I need to add more meta sulfite another .20 grams to reach my goal of 40ppm.
Is this some what correct??


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 16, 2012)

BobF said:


> I almost agree
> 
> Free SO2 is what we're really concerned about having sufficient levels of. A large portion of the very first SO2 addition will be bound up in a relatively short time. Technically the SO2 isn't gone, but it's also not free.
> 
> ...



Not really. Free So2 is a result of a certain amount of Kmeta added at a certain pH. If the ph doesn't change and no o2 is introduced the Free So2 does not change by a large degree. However a somewhat larger initial dose can be productive. The idea that the free SO2 is going to disappear in a carboy unopened over time is not true.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 16, 2012)

thesnow said:


> Sorry I still don't get it, once i use the sc-300. Which the video shows how to get your readings that's great I understand. But nothing explains step by step in plain English how to correct your Free SO2.
> I never did this. I do like many I add 1/4 meta sulfite to a 23L carboy every six months.
> What I understand is you need to get the pH reading ; if its 3.4 (30ppm) then you want to bring it up for red wine to 40ppm (or maybe 50 )(White wine higher) So your looking at adding 10ppm to get your goal of 40ppm. if this example is correct using the calculator online I need in put into my carboy .40 grams meta sulifite
> Then wait 24 hrs and do the test again before bottling. So after waiting 24 hrs let's say i got 35ppm then I need to add more meta sulfite another .20 grams to reach my goal of 40ppm.
> Is this some what correct??


Hold on a minute. You are giving an example that if you have a ph of 3.4 in a wine you automatically have 30ppm of so2 NOT TRUE. You can have a wine with a ph of 3.4 and have 0 ppm of So2 it only means you need to add 30 ppm at 3.4 for the wine to be protected with enough So2. If you tested a wine with at ph of 3.4 and you find 10 ppm when you test then you need to add only 20 ppm to get to 30ppm. At 3.8 ph you need to have 79ppm. so for example you add 1/2 teaspoon to 5 gallons of achieve this if your test reads 0. Then after racking, filtering or both you test it again and you find that you have a reading of 50ppm you have lost 29ppm in the process. Now you have to add 29 ppm to reach again the desired goal of 79 ppm for a wine that has a ph of 3.8. 
Malvina


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 16, 2012)

seth8530 said:


> Im gona give my vote for aging in a carboy mainly due to the fact that larger volumes of liquid are less vulnerable to temperature spikes. which makes for better aging.


Temperature changes age wine quicker. Better aging as you say is true but not faster. 
http://www.preiserkey.com/node/1705

No wise cracks fellas
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 16, 2012)

Ok, I was under the impression that a pH reading of 3.4 looking at a pH wine chart you had automatically a 30ppm. I need to test for the pH and also test for SO2. Question, what is the total SO2 solution used for?


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 16, 2012)

Oh I think you are asking what is the total So2 test for. This test tells you how much So2 has been added. Keep in mind the Free So2 as in a wine with a PH of 3.8 needs 79 ppm of So2 to reach a level of So2 that is free and not bound. So2 that is bound in the wine does not protect the wine. The test for total So2 is testing the total amount added both free and bound. The upper limit of total SO2 allowed in wine in the US is 350 ppm but you never get that close. usually from 100 to 150 total is the case. That is another reason not to add to a carboy on a regular basis as very quickly your additions can add up. 
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

I add the first sulifite 1/4 tsp five months ago to a 23L carboy. So I only need to know the free SO2.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 17, 2012)

Yes this is what is important
Malvina


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

Runningwolf said:


> Keep in mind Bob that I still rack several times after fermentation on which the wine is being tested and S02 added. I'm just not a believer in leaving my wine in a carboy for a year like others if not necessary. I know a lot of people do age for very long periods in carboys.



I wasn't disagreeing with what you posted, Dan. I was adding to it.

Circumstances and techniques vary greatly between all of us, so it's hard to nail down exact numbers and timelines that will work for everybody.

Must/wine composition, vinification environment, actual vs nominal k-meta strength.

Another thing that folks need to keep in mind is that all of the baseline assumptions and techniques we use were established from years of GRAPE winemaking. Fruit musts are vastly different chemically from grape musts, so we need to add/reduce, tweak, fiddle, fudge when working with non-grape fruit.


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## seth8530 (Aug 17, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Temperature changes age wine quicker. Better aging as you say is true but not faster.
> http://www.preiserkey.com/node/1705
> 
> No wise cracks fellas
> Malvina



Thanks for posting a link. I will give that a read.. BTW was not debating about carboy vs bottle aging in the time aspect.


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Not really. Free So2 is a result of a certain amount of Kmeta added at a certain pH. If the ph doesn't change and no o2 is introduced the Free So2 does not change by a large degree. However a somewhat larger initial dose can be productive. The idea that the free SO2 is going to disappear in a carboy unopened over time is not true.



Sorry, Mal. What you've posted here is misleading, at least for initial/early additions. Free SO2 is, by definition, UNBOUND SO2. Not to pick nits, but pH does not effect how much of an SO2 addition is free SO2 - pH tells us how much free SO2 will be *molecular* free SO2. I'm not trying to pick flysh*t out of pepper here. There are four distinct SO2 measures that are important in day-to-day use; Total, Bound, Free and Molecular.

As SO2 becomes bound over time, there is less free SO2 to contribute to *molecular*. *Oxygen is NOT the only thing in wine that SO2 binds with*.

This is obviously more of a factor in the earliest SO2 additions. In fact, this is the reason that "a somewhat larger initial dose can be productive."

In practical terms, and in most cases, by the time the second or third SO2 addition has been made, then what you posted above is true.

For anybody interested in digging in to this, the single best SO2 paper I've found is at http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

MalvinaScordaad said:


> Temperature changes age wine quicker. Better aging as you say is true but not faster.
> http://www.preiserkey.com/node/1705
> 
> No wise cracks fellas
> Malvina



I wonder how much empty Salamanzars go for?


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

I did my wine test, Red Cabernet Sauvignon
Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
Hmmm... PH is kind of High , For PH, what do I do now ?
TA is 5.6 g/L
The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
I was planning to filter into another carboy then bottle, but I'm on hold now, not sure what do..


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 17, 2012)

thesnow said:


> I did my wine test, Red Cabernet Sauvignon
> Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
> Hmmm... PH is kind of High , For PH, what do I do now ?
> The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
> I was planning to filter into another carboy then bottle, but I'm on hold now, not sure what do..



Talk about getting lost in the weeds Bob LOL I try to keep it practical. 

OK So Snow here has a Ph of 3.76 and he thinks he has a problem. Not sure why. Did you read a book that told you PH had to be 3.6 or the wine would spoil? Many do. In the real world many wines have a ph of 3.8 but now as a winemaker you have to exercise some decision making. Simply add an additional 40 ppm or First how does the wine taste? Is it flabby? Can it handle a little more acid? Next question since we know the PH what is the TA. If the TA is low and you think the wine can handle some acid addition to TASTE then you can add some tartaric acid and the result will be a lowering of the ph which in turn will let you use less SO2 to protect the wine. So Taste the wine, Get a TA reading, do a bench test with an additional amount of tartaric TASTE ( allow 24 hours for the tartaric to integrate) and then measure ph again. Then let us know what you have decided to do. 
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

TA is 5.6 g/l


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

Hehe ... Weeds are everywhere! OTOH, making a single, first addition of SO2 at 40ppm and leaving it for a year is asking for problems. A spontaneous MLF is likely and mixed with sorbate would be the end of the wine.

But, hey - it was easy!!


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

wine tastes oaky, added oak six months ago.. would like to stir but don't want to make sediments come up. would prefer filtering the wine first then stir to have a good taste


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

BobF.. this is not really funny..


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

Snow - See my PM. I feel your pain. Hang in there.


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

BobF said:


> Snow - See my PM. I feel your pain. Hang in there.


BobF for adjustments what do you recommend?

Red Cabernet Sauvignon
Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
TA is 5.6 g/L
The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
I was planning to filter into another carboy then bottle, but I'm on hold now, not sure what do..


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

I prefer .8 molecular for reds and whites. Some prefer to use .5 for reds.
You already have 40ppm, which is what is needed at your wines pH for .5 (close enough).

If you want to go with .8, you need to add 30ppm free SO2 for a total of 70. 
(ppm = mg/L)

Using FermCalc (http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/FermCalcJS.html)
to calculate, your addition needs to be 1.2g for 23L.

As Mal stated above, there is 'room' for an acid addition IF your taste tells you that you want more. You said it tastes fine ...

You could do some trials to see if you would prefer to make an acid addition. Making an acid addition will extend your timeline for bottling, but you won't need any more SO2 right now because an acid addition would lower your pH. With a lower pH, the free SO2 requirement is lower to get the target molecular level.

Here is a link to a good paper on SO2 management.
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

I hope I haven't muddied this up for you. If you have any more questions, please post them or PM me.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 17, 2012)

Why Pm I think a lot of readers might be interested. .56 ta for a Cab. Taste rules but .65 would not at all be out of line. 
Malvina

This wine didn't go through MLF? That changes the entire picture. Lysozyme immediately.


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm new at this..
If i go for an acid addition, how much should I add?
never done this before, never bought acid addition what am I looking for at local wine store.


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

I went out , and got a acid blend.. I'm trying to use the FermCalc JS calculator, seems the only option is three kinds of acids to pick from?? what does mEq/L mean?
Is my calculation OK should I go the half the amount .30 gram


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

What you need is tartaric acid.
Are you measuring with a gram scale or teaspoons?

To give you an idea, you would add 20.7g of tartaric to increase the TA of 23L from .56% to .65% 

I wouldn't make this jump without testing. 

If you have a gram scale I can post a quick/dirty procedure for you to make adjustments to a few samples to help you decide if you want to add acidity and how much.

Your numbers are not beyond reason at this point, so it's really what taste you prefer.

If you haven't put this through MLF, you can either add Lysozyme as Mal suggested, or make sure you keep your free SO2 above 30ppm - which you already have for now.


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

For a Cab, I wouldn't use acid blend. Blend has tartaric, citric and malic acids. I would not want to add malic ...

I have no idea what those units are. Pick %Tartaric for the units, which is what your TA tests are.

I wouldn't add anything without trying a sample to make absolutely certain you like the wine with the addition. It's easy to add, but not so easy to away if you overshoot with the addition.


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

For a trial, mix 5g tartaric acid in 100ml distilled water. This is a 5% solution.

Measure 100ml of your wine. 

Each ml of the solution you add to your wine sample is the same as making a .5g/L, or .05% addition. 2ml = 1g/L or .1%

So, 2ml in sample will be like making a full addition to your carboy bringing the TA from 5.6 to 6.6.

Somebody please double check my math


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm measuring with digital scale

OK, I will not go with a acid blend. 
I'm starting to wonder to just leave it alone.


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

Curious, why Tartaric acid?


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## thesnow (Aug 17, 2012)

I will filter the wine over to another carboy, and tomorrow I will taste it , and test it again
Thanks you guys a great thanks for helping me out


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

thesnow said:


> Curious, why Tartaric acid?



Tartaric is the dominate acid naturally found in grapes. Malic is also present, but is considered harsh - removing the harshness of malic acid is the reason for MLF; malo-lactic fermentation. MLF converts the malic to lactic, a much softer acid.


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## BobF (Aug 17, 2012)

thesnow said:


> I'm measuring with digital scale
> 
> OK, I will not go with a acid blend.
> I'm starting to wonder to just leave it alone.



Just think how much easier it will be doing the next batch


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 17, 2012)

BobF said:


> For a trial, mix 5g tartaric acid in 100ml distilled water. This is a 5% solution.
> 
> Measure 100ml of your wine.
> 
> ...



Correct and a nice way of doing a bench test. Right again on only Tartaric and never Malic. You don't put gasoline on a pending fire and that is what you are doing when you add Malic. also 30 ppm won't stop an impending MLF. This worries me more than anything because you want to bottle.


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## BobF (Aug 18, 2012)

Snow - Sorry, but there is an important question that should have been asked long ago.

What is the source for the wine? Fresh grapes, juice, concentrate kit?


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## thesnow (Aug 18, 2012)

Source , Fresh grapes


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## BobF (Aug 18, 2012)

Have you put this through MLF, or no?


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## thesnow (Aug 18, 2012)

This is what i did in October. Crushing grapes and primary 5 days, pressing and transfered all liquids into secondary vessel for 2 days. Then add 1/8 tsp Vitamin C into each carboy's and transfered from secondary vessel into carboys, left carboys at room temperature for 10 days I never add meta sulifite potassium , (I forgot stressful year). After 10 days when I saw there was no more air bubbles in air locks. I then placed carboys in cold room 50-55F (again, never add meta sulfite) I added the first meta sulifite in the cold room 1/4 tsp in March.


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 18, 2012)

Vitamin C why would you do that ? Just curious. I would attempt a MLf with Enolferm Alpha or VP 41. Culture the mlb at 80 degrees with acti ml , apple juice, wine and water for 3 days about a quart total and raise temp of wine to 70 and see if you can get it going. 
Malvina


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## BobF (Aug 18, 2012)

I agree. With your pH where it is, it would be risky trying to keep MLF from happening on it's own. You should end up with even lower TA and higher pH when MLF is done, but that is easily corrected.

Might even be a good idea to raise acidity a bit before you start MLF.


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## thesnow (Aug 19, 2012)

Why i put Vitamin C. Long store short. Following what others do here. After racking from the secondary vessel to Carboy's or Denijohn's after ten, fifteen days when the air locks shown no more signs of air bubbles you would put sulfite mixed with a little vitamen to protect the wine.
What i know now and what I'm learning is from this winemaking forum. 
I'm also starting to see that everybody I know here where i live don't know what there doing or don't want to tell you. It's kinda frustrating, it's like getting parts & pieces of a puzzle but you don't have a clue what the picture is.


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## thesnow (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm curious, why suggest a MLF?


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 19, 2012)

Red Vinifera varietals are put through MLf as a matter of sound winemaking procedure. It is not an option but some will pretend it is one. You do a MLF for 2 major reasons the first is to eliminate harsh malic acid which makes the wine more approachable at an early age. The second reason is the most important. A spontaneous MLF can start at any time even after bottling. If so your wine will be fizzy. Not exactly what you want in a Cabernet Sauvignon. So two things should strike you. one Acid blend has malic so there is no sense adding something you want to remove. The second thing is you inoculate on purpose with the bacteria so it converts the malic to lactic and the wine is then stable for bottling. A proper ph and a reasonable TA will act as more of an antioxidant then adding ascorbic acid There is no reason to put vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in your wine period. Unless you are breaking down mercaptins for a treatment of copper to eliminate a H2S problem 
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 19, 2012)

thesnow said:


> Red Cabernet Sauvignon
> Results: PH 3.8 straight from cold room, did test again 15 mins later PH 3.76
> TA is 5.6 g/L
> The free SO2 is 40 ppm.
> ...



Again why MLF? I did a MLF for 10 days?

Lets review my mistakes.Besides the error of adding vitamin C, and my second mistake by not adding Meta Potassium after 10 days. Is my third mistake ? maybe I've should have left the carboys at room temp for more then 10 days even thought there was no more air bubbles activity.
What do you guys think?


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 19, 2012)

thesnow said:


> Again why MLF? I did a MLF for 10 days?
> 
> Lets review my mistakes.Besides the error of adding vitamin C, and my second mistake by not adding Meta Potassium after 10 days. Is my third mistake ? maybe I've should have left the carboys at room temp for more then 10 days even thought there was no more air bubbles activity.
> What do you guys think?


Just because you waited 10 days after pressing that is no indication after bubbles stopped in the Air Lock that you even started a MLF let alone completed one. Most likely the bubbles you saw for 10 days was the ending of the Alcohol Fermentation. I think I explained the necessity of MLF. Now if you want to know if you have a completed MLF purchase an Accuvin Malic Acid test kit. It will tell you the presence and level of Malic Acid in the wine. If you have more than 30 ppm it is safe to say you have not completed a MLF. Your second mistake was not adding ML bacteria not K meta. You should have added MLF bacteria instead at that point and kept the wine at 70 until the MLF was completed which can take up to 90 days and you would test with Accuvin Malic Test to confirm the completion. Then you would add the FIRST Dose of K meta

Since you added only a small amount of K meta if you splash rack the wine you may be able to get a MLF going at this date. 
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 19, 2012)

Thank you, much appreciated, I will get the accuvin malic test kit for my next batch of wine making. I will also get the ML bacteria , do you suggest any particular brand or type?


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 19, 2012)

thesnow said:


> Thank you, much appreciated, I will get the accuvin malic test kit for my next batch of wine making. I will also get the ML bacteria , do you suggest any particular brand or type?



I like Enol Ferm Alpha or VP 41
Malvina


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## thesnow (Aug 20, 2012)

I can't find these products, Is there an online store where i can purchase the Enol Ferm Alpha or VP-41
Thanks


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## MalvinaScordaad (Aug 20, 2012)

thesnow said:


> I can't find these products, Is there an online store where i can purchase the Enol Ferm Alpha or VP-41
> Thanks



I use Scott Labs but these guys pack in smaller volumes http://morewinepro.com/


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