# Primary fermentator Question



## Stan1 (Jan 26, 2008)

I'm new to the process, received a deluxe kit for Christmas and want to begin making some grapefruit wine. I have the primary fermenting bucket from the kit. The bucket came pre-drilled with a hole near the bottom of the bucket for a spigot, which was also supplied in the kit. My question is about the gasket on the spigot. Does the gasket rest against the outside or inside of the bucket?


Thanks in advance for any help.


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## masta (Jan 26, 2008)

Welcome Stan,


The spigot should have two gaskets and one goes inside and one outside. Don't over-tighten and always check with water for leaks before using.


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## Stan1 (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks Masta. There was only one gasket supplied.


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## Wade E (Jan 26, 2008)

You will need another, if you got it fro Finevinewines, give George a call and he'll get 1 to you quick. welcome to this forum Stan.


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## Stan1 (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks Wade for the follow-up and welcome. The kit was from finevinewines. I've done some improvising with a gasket borrowed from another part, and so far no leaks.
The grapefruit is juiced, the rinds grated, all items cleaned and sterilized, the rinds bagged, the chemicals added, distilled water added, the SG at 1.085, acid at .6, yeast starter cooking for addition tomorrow.


Hope I did this right.


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## Wade E (Jan 26, 2008)

Looking good so far, looks like you ave done some reading. Great job!


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## Waldo (Jan 27, 2008)

Welcome to the forum stan. How did you choose a grapefruit to make your first wine from? Have you had a grapefruit wine before? If so, how was it?


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## Stan1 (Jan 27, 2008)

I've never seen or had grapefruit wine before. Since the fruit is in season, thought it would be interesting to give it a try. 
Today brings a worry regarding my yeast starter. Yesterday, after mixing up the starter, the reaction came within several hours and continued at least until the time I retired for the evening. This morning, minimal, if any activity in the jar. I placed the yeast starter contents in the primary after lunch today, but I haven't seen anything stirring in the primary yet. *Edited by: Stan *


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## dcrnbrd (Jan 27, 2008)

Mine took about 24 hours to get going. Within 48 hours it was boiling.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

Stan


You should be fine.
Your "starter" was a small world with a limited amount of nutriants and sugar for the little beestie yeasties.
They'll consume what they can from the jarand then wait for more for a time.
Introducing them to your primary, nutriant and sugarrich as it is, will be a shock to them. They'll rise to the challance though shortly. Have faith.


What type of yeast did you use and what's your starting specific gravity? You need to know that nowto know how much alc you'll get from the finished fermentation.


Sounds great! You must bein the lower south U.S. if grapefruits are in season.


If you need any other help, ask away and we'll do what we can.


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## Stan1 (Jan 28, 2008)

Thanks Handyman, 


The yeast was Lalvin EC-1118 from the kit. I just got home and there are some minute bubbles, and some type of "goo" on the surface. My problem is that the yeast packet says to not keep the yeast in the starter for more than 15 minutes - I left it in overnight and then some. Am I ok, or should I make up another starter and dump that in.


Thanks for everyone's help. Its a new adventure, but fun.


PS The starting Sg was 1.085.*Edited by: Stan *


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## grapeman (Jan 28, 2008)

stan the bubbles and foam are a sign that fermentation has begun. Keep it covered and by morning it will probably be foaming pretty good. Sometimes the foam goes away and fizzes like a soda. All are signs of an active fermentation.


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## Wade E (Jan 28, 2008)

Sounds like everything is going well.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2008)

Stan: 
Your starting sg = 1.085 then,
your Brix = 21.25 and,
your abv (assumeing you ferment to 0.000) will be 12.22%


As far as your yeast... Applemans advice is just about as good as it gets. Wait another day and watch it.


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## Wade E (Jan 28, 2008)

I believe that they dont want you to keep the started more than 15 minutes because there is not much for the little yeasties to eat so they need to be put in where there is sugars to eat, dont want them to starve.


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## Stan1 (Jan 28, 2008)

Thanks folks for the comforting and fast advice. It makes me feel much better! It is a real bummer to consider 36 grapefruit ruined! I'll wait, like you suggested, and check again tomorrow.


This is a great forum!


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2008)

The little bubbles are indicative of co2 forming in your must, indicative of yeast eating sugar and and nutriants and converting that into ethyal alcohol and carbon dioxide.
That's a normal thing Stan.


Yea. You probebly should have added the little guys after 15 minutes but I personally don't know anyone who did everything right on their first couple kits except perhaps Wade.


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## Stan1 (Jan 29, 2008)

Glad I listened to you guys!


Bubbling like crazy!!!


Thanks again!


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2008)

TOO COOL HUH.


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## Wade E (Jan 29, 2008)

Its a great



sound an experience! Now to back that up with some more airlocks bubbling!


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## Stan1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Hello Folks,
Well, here I am, worried again. I added the yeast starter last Sunday with a starting SG of 1.085. Here it is Thursday night, 4 days later, and the SG is only down to 1.068. The batch is fizzing away, but is it too slow? Is this batch doomed for wine hell? Should I add more yeast?? Should I put my head in the oven??


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## rshosted (Jan 31, 2008)

Stan, 

It does sound a little slow, but keep watching it, and as long as it's going down let it do its thing. A bubbling airlock is the goal at this point.... 

You mentioned that the Acid was at .6 earlier. Is that TA or PH? I can only imagine that grapefruit is a high acid fruit. The high acid might be slowing down your ferment. I would be interested as to if you added any calcium carbonate, water (if so what kind), and/or yeast nutrient. Also did you add any pectic enzyme?


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## grapeman (Jan 31, 2008)

Hold off on the oven Stan.... It is doing fine if it is fizzing. Some yeasts tend to run slower, especially if the must temps aren't up to about 70 degrees. Winter fermentations tend to run slower unless you have it in a well heated room or are using a brew belt to warm the primary up. Hang in there, check it in a couple days and you will probably find it is down some more. If you have a warmer room, move it in there. Good Luck.


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## Stan1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks folks. I tested the acid with an acid test kit initially, and added to the must tobring the acid level to .6. I also added pectic enzyme, althoughI pressed the juice out of the grapefruit and added grated rinds (contained in a nylon straining bag) to the must. I finished the batch by adding distilled water and camden tablets 24 hours before adding the yeast starter. I did not add yeast nutrient, but I have it here if I need to add it. The temp in the room is a constant 68 degrees. 


????????


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## Wade E (Jan 31, 2008)

what are your temps and what yeast did you use? Ill tell you right now that if you used Red Star Cotes Des Blanc then youre in for a long ride as this yeast seems to always go slow but does a great job. Fast fermentations are not always good and kits are typically the only wines that ferment fast besides 1 gallon batches. Your doing fine and here is where patience needs to be taken. As long as it is fermenting you are fine. can you please post your recipe again so that we may inspect it. You may have already and if you did, next time try to keep it in the same post so you dont have to re post.


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## Stan1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks Wade for all your help. The yeast is Lalvin EC-1118. The temp is 68 degrees. Here is the recipe I used, from the "Winemaker's Recipe Handbook": 


36 Grapefruit
2 lbs suger per gallon
1 tsp Tannin total
5 campden tablets
Pectin enzyme
yeast
distilled water
rinds from 10 grapefruit, contained in a straining bag


Hope this helps. Must is 6 gallons total.*Edited by: Stan *


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

Stan:


First off, relax...
Just like Wade says, if it's bubbling (giving off CO2) it's doing just what it's supposed to do, regardless of the size of the bubbles, fermentation is still active.
What you did 24 hours prior to adding the yeast is fine. What matters now is what's happening after adding the yeast.


Your Grapefruit is a light collored wine (white) ergo you probebly used a Cuvee or Epermay. As such you're going to get a week long fermentation. It is what it is.
My Raspberry is in it's 10th dayand 2nd rack on Red Star Premere Cuvee yeast and still pushing up CO2. Just let it do it's thing.


If you get down to an sg. of 1.0 or less and you're impatient (as I was at 0.998), you can rack and your fermentation will lessen. But that's only if 1.0 is where you want to go with this wine (again, it's all a matter of personal taste as far as abv goes).


When you have what ever abv (sg. 0.998, 1.0, 1.010, etc) you want as a finished product, add 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon of wine and your fermentation will quit. You can also add any back sweetening sugar at this time as well but watch for re-active fermentation after that for a week or so.


Use of the straining bag will save you rackings and or clearing additives later. Good call on that part.


Take care on adding water. It dilutes the overall flavor of the wine. BUT!
You must keep your oxy exposure at a minimum especially as fermentation slows or stops and as such, water may be necessary (seems to me that Polish Wine Princess mentioned somewhere, that she uses sterilized marbles instead of wateradded to the wine to displace the missing volume. Clever trick).


All in all, you're doing fine. Fermentation is the hardest part to wait out because it's right there in front of you. Smelling like wine, looking like wine, inviting you to try it out and scaring the dickens outa you about screwing it up. But you won't if you're patient.


Last point. Fermentation works best at around 75 degrees (give or take). Less or morethat that and your fermentation drags. Excessevly more or less and your fermentation can quit all together ("stuck fermentation"). If you're fermentating at 68 deg as you saidyou are, I'd suggestmoving the carboy to a warmer spot and that might speed up your fermentation.


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## Stan1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks again for this great forum and great support. As a result of your suggestions I'm going to increase the temp from 68 to 70 degrees and wait it out until the SG moves down to the 1.030 range, then movethe must to the glass carboy. 


Thanks again for your help. I've turned the oven off and closed the oven door!


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## Wade E (Jan 31, 2008)

Adding meta before fermentation is done is not the best way to go as stopping a fermentation in progress is risky at best. best way to stop a fermentation is to sterile filter with very fine filters that are costly or to cold stabilize or to ferment dry then back sweeten.


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## geocorn (Jan 31, 2008)

Sorry to be late to this post. We received quite a number of spigots with only one gasket, unfortunately, we did not discover this until customers started calling. We now check all of the spigots. Please ask for the second gasket on your next order and we will supply it. I apologize for the error. That is what happens when you don't check the products.


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## rshosted (Jan 31, 2008)

Stan,

Actually the EC-1118 is good from 45-95°F, so your temps are right on. In fact a cooler ferment would be just as good, but I really don't think there is reason to change anything in that area. 


As for the recipe you gave, you should not use distilled water. It does not have the mineral content in there for yeasts. It will also lose some of the mouthfeel because of this. (though you probably won't notice and your wine will be the best you've ever had). I would strongly suggest that you add a little nutrient to it. That could possibly be a small part of why you are having a slower ferment. 

For our concerns we need to keep yeast happy. They start by eating all the oxygen in our must (juice). This is when they are in their aerobic state. After they run out of oxygen they eat sugar and produce carbon dioxide and ethanol (yum!). Later they die, sink to the bottom and start autolysis (self digestion and the reason we rack our wines off of the lees or sediment)

While yeast is in this state they consume minerals (kind of like vitamins) and they like a certain acid level too. The yeast you are using is kind of like Arnold Swartchneger (Sp?) in Predator. (prior to being the govinator). It can pretty much survive anything, but given the right conditions it will prosper, much how Arnold used basic mud for camouflage and a knife to kill an alien with incredibly sophisticated technology... Ok, well providing your yeast with nutrient, a balanced acid, and easily consumable sugars would be akin to giving the govenator his own advanced alien gear. But then the movie would have only been 15 minutes and this reference wouldn't have been as.... um, unique. 

So lastly, don't worry about it. If you really want, throw in a pinch of nutrient. Sit back, pour a glass and enjoy. The fact that you have these questions just shows that you are doing fine. 

And lastly, you should NEVER drink a few glasses of wine and answer questions while watching... well I think we already know




Cheers.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

[chuckles]
Yea!


I agree with what he said! (I think?)


If it has anything to do with Arnie though, go for it man!


WE WANT TO PUMP YOUR WINE UP!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

I stand corrected... 


*Fermentation (wine)*
*From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*

<DIV id=Content>"Typically white wine is fermented between 64-68 °F (18-20 °C) though a wine maker may choose to use a higher temperature to bring out some of the complexity of the wine. Red wine is typically fermented at higher temperatures up to 85 °F (29 °C). Fermentation at higher temperatures may have adverse effect on the wine in stunning the yeast to inactivity and even "boiling off" some of the flavors of the wines. Some winemakers may ferment their red wines at cooler temperatures more typical of white wines in order to bring out more fruit flavors."


As far as mythoughts on...

When you have what ever abv (sg. 0.998, 1.0, 1.010, etc) you want as a finished product, add 1 crushed campden tablet per gallon of wine and your fermentation will quit. You can also add any back sweetening sugar at this time as well but watch for re-active fermentation after that for a week or so.
It didn't print quitethe wayI thunk it up.


What you decide to try on your ownwine is of course, up to you. Our thoughts here are meant onlyto aid you inlearning how to kake your own qualified decisions.
While there is nothing really "risky" about this business other than of course,spoilage ofyour wine (as such you simply try again),racking your must early or frequentlywillremove a lot of the lees and as such, slow things down a bit. However I'm still in favor of riding out your fermentation to its completion. I'm still doing just that.


If you want to stop your fermentation early, the only two ways I've ever heard of are extreme cold and extreme alcohol addition butboth of these methods are a difinitive "next"step in creating somthing more complex than your original wine.


Filtration is a process that in my opinion, seperates the home wine maker from the professional (retail)wine maker and not recomended unless you have an intolerance to such things as yeast, sulfites or certain types of bacterias.<SUP =reference>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_(wine)#_note-Oxford_pg_268</SUP>


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## Stan1 (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks folks. Thanks for the comment George about the gasket - I need more cleaner and some other stuff, so I'll mention it when the order is placed. Thanks again.


I've added 1 tsp of yeast nutrient and 1 tsp. of yeast energizer. The SG is 1.050, temp is 68 degrees, bubbles (fine) still present. At what SG would you recommendtransfer of the must to the glass carboy? 


Thanks again for everyone's help.


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## Wade E (Feb 2, 2008)

1.020 for 5 or 6 gallon batch or 1.025 for smaller batches as they go much faster.


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## Stan1 (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks Wade. Trying to be patient - will wait for 1.020.


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## Stan1 (Feb 5, 2008)

Good evening folks,


It worked! 1.018 and transferred to the carboy tonight. I've attached a pic of the dirty deed.


Thanks again for everyone's help.


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## NorthernWinos (Feb 5, 2008)




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## Fixit guy (Feb 16, 2008)

I think that a one time this could have been a kitchen!






Looks good






Fixit Guy........


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## whino-wino (Feb 17, 2008)

rshosted made a very good point. You should not use distilled water in any recipe for the very reasons he stated. If you do not like your tap water, just buy drinking water or spring water at your local grocery store. 




Distilled water will not necessarilykill a fermentation, but it may slow it down quite a bit. If that's all you have available, then I would modify the recipe slightly and use some yeast energizer instead of yeast nutrient when mixing up the must. If the recipe already uses yeast energizer, add an extra 1/4 - 1/2 tsp per gallon if using distilled water.


I have a reverse osmosis system in my home for my drinking water. I am not certain of this, but I believe that it is basically the same as using distilled water (lacking nutrients) so when making wine with it I usually substitute the energizer in place of the nutrient. I have had no issues with this so far.


There is one more point I need to make. There IS a difference between nutrient and energizer and there is a reason why you don't want to just add more nutrient. You should NOT add yeast nutrient to stuck or slow fermentations. Any left over vitamins in the nutrient can stimulate spoilage microbes. The only time you should add nutrient is before or as you pitch the yeast. You MAY, on the other hand, add yeast energizer (which, like I said earlier, is not the same as nutrient). This does not seem to encourage spoilage microbes at all.



*Edited by: whino-wino *


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## Stan1 (Feb 18, 2008)

Thanks*whino-wino* . I had no idea the difference between the energizer and the nutrient. Fixit Guy, that is my bar area - still need to get a fridge. The sink is WAY too small for this work. You use what you got.


I haven't touched the batch since I posted the pic. It is still bubbling, slowly now, and there is some sediment in the bottom. 13 days since I racked it - perhaps another racking in a week? What do you think?*Edited by: Stan *


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