# Welches Grape Concentrate



## corinth (Dec 13, 2013)

WELCHES GRAPE CONCENTATE RECIPE(UPDATED)( A WORK IN PROGRESS) 
The below recipe is a combination of various suggestions from a number of posts on winemaking talk, various books, articles and other forums. I have tried to combine bits and pieces to come up with what appears to be some commonalities, various options that to me appear to be an interesting approach and obviously not the only approach. I have now updated this post to include suggestions from those who have replied to this post..[/U]
*Welch's Frozen Grape Juice Wine*

4 cans (11.5 oz) Welch's 100% frozen grape(red) concentrate 
_"Julie would not recommend any of the frozen concentrates to be over 12% ABV"_
1-1/4 lbs granulated sugar
Duster: You can experiment with other sugars to raise your SG, honey and corn syrup or common favorites maintaining good fruity flavor and high enough ABV to keep it interesting
_Jamesgalveston agrees "adjust sugar with hydrometer"detail below_
2 tsp acid blend (50% tartaric,30% malic, 20% citric)?
_"Sal would use tartaric Acid rather than a blend. citric acid may cause problems"_
_"Julie states do an acid reading and adjust as needed" _
*PECTIC ENZYME*
1 tsp pectic enzyme 
Pectic enzyme 12-24 hours yeast could be only rehydrated 15 minutes or add some juic e and amke a starter(djrockinsteve)
1 tsp yeast nutrient(are some type preferred more than others)
Jamesgalveston would use 1/2 of the yeast nutrient, then add the other half in about 3 days"
Djrockinsteve: At 1.000 add 1 tsp of super ferment per 6 gallons...leave alone 3 days. it will ferment below .990

*WATER USED?*
Distilled water to make 1 gallon ?
_"Sal also use regular water": details below from his post_

*wine yeast*
Lavlin 118 or
Lavlin D47 amongst others that have been mentioned.
"Julie would use Lavlin 71b-1122"
Another yeast type mentioned was RC-212(wineforfun)
Of the above Yeasts, what are the differences that they would impart on the end result?
71B-1122 tolerate a bit colder temp, down to 59f (sour grapes)
Duster:A prefer red star premier curvee yeast (personal preference)
John T:I like temp of 75 degrees....dpending on the yeast temps as low as 65 degrees will work. RC-212 tempo between 68f and 86F. Start at 75-77 (sour-grapes

*Is there a preferred temperature for the must ?*
John T:I like temp of 75 degrees....depending on the yeast temps as low as 65 degrees will work. RC-212 tempo between 68f and 86F. Start at 75-77 (sour-grapes)
71B-1122 tolerate a bit colder temp, down to 59f (sour grapes)

*SPECIFIC GRAVITY*
What would be a good starting .
Salcoco specific gravity 1.085 is a good number. 1.092 would be 12% so the 1.085 should be about 10%.
James Galveston: winemakers here, use 1.095 as a starting sg.
I start mine at 1.00 are 1.110, i like a little higher abv.
Julie: start at 1.095 that will give you over 13% ABV, I would not recommend any of the frozen concentrates to be over 12% ABV. 
Djrockinsteve:1.080 to not over power with alcohol
Duster Starting SG 1.080 to 1.090 would be acceptable 1.085 is right on target ..."
*pH and TA*
Sour Grapes suggest 3.3-3.4
John T redwine shoot for PH of 3.4
I shoot for a TA of .65gpl.
Julie: 3.4 pf ph amd 65%-70% of TA
Julie: take an acid reading and sjust as needed
2 tsp acid blend (50% tartaric,30% malic, 20% citric)?
"Sal would use tartaric Acid rather than a blend. citric acid may cause problems"
"Julie states do an acid reading and adjust as needed" 

*Adding Oak*
Various sources consider adding 
Med toast American oak per at 2oz /gallon
Add Oak after Second racking appeared to be common to various recipes.
_"Sal says carful with Oak as it may be overwhelmed with too much tannin_"

*Raisons*: 
About 1/2 pound of chopped raisins per gallon was stated as an interesting option.
When would be the best time to add these "organic" raisons? 
"Sal says during pre-fermentation and would use 1/4..."
Various methods were considered as to how these raisons should be prepared prior to adding them to the must.
Sal also states below the use of dried elderberries as a variation. the additions of raisins and elderberries provided enough tannin in the beginning,
Duster:Raisins are good make sure they are sulphate free and they should be added during the primary. What your after is the tannins that the grape skins provide and the natural sugar they offer. Another possibility would be grape skin packs instead of raisins.
Julie: instead of raisons, why not tannis?


Thanks _Jamesgalveston, I am going to use a food grade bucket with an open lid with a cloth covering so it will get plenty of 02 in the primary._
*Clearing*
Clear with sparkoloid for 6 weeks. age 4-6 months. 
*Stabilize:*
Don't forget to stabilize with more k-meta after fermentation is complete and k sorbate if you plan to back sweeten.
*Backsweeten*
backsweeten to preference use sorbate and inverted surar. allow to rest a few weeks.(djrockinssteve)

I intend on making a number of small batches as a form of experimentation knowing full well there are many variables to consider.
I have other questions but I am still looking up info on exactly what to ask and how to ask it will post it elsewhere.


I have updated the above info as people have made suggestions with their name next to it . I appreciate all of your help and I am trying to incorporate your suggestions to memory.
Thank you
Corinth


----------



## Julie (Dec 14, 2013)

Lavlin 71B 1122 would be a good choice in yeast. And when creating a recipe, you should never state the amount of sugar you should put in. Add enough sugar to get you to a specific gravity reading. Same goes with acid blend, do not add that blindly. Take an acid reading and adjust as needed.


----------



## salcoco (Dec 14, 2013)

I would use strictly tartaric acid rather than acid blend. the citric acid may cause problems. also I would use regular water rather than distilled. the minerals in regular drinking water are good for the yeast. if concerned about chlorine, let the water stand for about an hour and the chlorine will gas off. I would add the raisin pre-fermentation, they should add body. I would reduce the quantity to a bout a 1/4 lb for one gallon. One interesting variation is dried elderberries at pre-fermentation. They will add tannin to the wine. I would start with about a 1/2 tsp for one gallon of wine. I would minimize the oak. Concord wine may be overwhelmed with to much tannin.


----------



## jamesngalveston (Dec 14, 2013)

I agree with Julie, adjust sugar with hydrometer, not by cups, are pounds.
I think most of the winemakers here, use 1.095 as a starting sg.
I start mine at 1.00 are 1.110, i like a little higher abv.
I also would add just 1/2 of the yeast nutrient, then add the other half in about 3 days....
You did not say what type fermenter...I would use a bucket with and open lid, and just a cloth covering, so it will get plenty of o2 in the primary.


----------



## corinth (Dec 14, 2013)

I am starting to get a feel for the overall picture. A few more questions:

Julie, did you say Lavlin 71b-1122?

Also, I though James somewhere preferred one type of yeast nutrient more than another but I may have misread the info.

In addition, is there a preferred temperature for the must?

Somewhere down the road once the fermentation has stopped and I have added K sorbate and K-meta to stabilize the wine, only then would I attempt to "Backsweeten" it ?

I do not know much about Backsweeten so I need to read more about it and get an idea of how much of what I would use and what formula to use.

Lastly, I think I have a basic idea of what I am doing even though you notice I have not mentioned how much k-sorbate and K-meta I should use. I will research that more so I can get a better feel and ask the appropriate questions.

Thank you all so much
Corinth


----------



## Julie (Dec 14, 2013)

Actually, I do not think most people start at 1.095 that will give you over 13% ABV, I would not recommend any of the frozen concentrates to be over 12% ABV.


----------



## Julie (Dec 14, 2013)

Yes, Lavlin 71B 1122 and yes stabilize with k-meta and sorbate before backsweetening


----------



## olusteebus (Dec 14, 2013)

I will be following your success on this. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## corinth (Dec 14, 2013)

I find all of your feedback really interesting and I appreciate all the comments.

I have more questions but I need to assimilate what you have all said, gather my thoughts and possible formulas before I continue.

I think it is time for me to buy a weigh scale for milligrams but that would be for another post.

Thank you.
Corinth


----------



## sour_grapes (Dec 14, 2013)

corinth said:


> I think it is time for me to buy a weigh scale for milligrams but that would be for another post.




I bought this one from ebay. It took a long time to come, since it ships from overseas, but it was cheap and seems nice.


----------



## corinth (Dec 14, 2013)

Sour_grapes:

I just started a post with some weigh scale brands, prices and reviews.
I just added the one you found on e-bay to the list.
thank you


----------



## corinth (Mar 19, 2014)

OK, since 3 months and with bit more info under my belt, and a few more toys, a couple more questions.

1. is there a ph , more or less that I am aiming for?
2. Is there a TA range I should be aiming for?
3. is there a temperature range that I should be trying to hold during primary ferm. and sec. ferm?

I updated your thoughts to the orig. post and anything else I should consider to guide my actions and my readings(I know many)...and then...time to kick the tires and light the fires(independence Day)

sincerely,
corinth


----------



## sour_grapes (Mar 19, 2014)

corinth said:


> OK, since 3 months and with bit more info under my belt, and a few more toys, a couple more questions.
> 
> 1. is there a ph , more or less that I am aiming for?
> 2. Is there a TA range I should be aiming for?
> ...




Gosh, I won't be of much use to you, but I will do what I can:
1. I would say your _p_H should be in the range of 3.3-3.4. 
2. I really don't know...
3. Well, the temperature really depends most on what makes the yeast the happiest. I would try to shoot for the middle of the range. For example, RC-212 calls for temperatures between 68F and 86F; I would counsel starting at 75-77F or so. 71B-1122 can tolerate a bit colder temps, down to 59F, but I would still shoot for 75F or so.

Just try it! Get your hands purple and do it!!


----------



## djrockinsteve (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't use distilled water. We have chlorinated water and never had trouble. Definitely use Pectic enzyme 12-24 hours. Yeast could be only rehydrated 15 minutes or add some juice and make a starter. 

Nutrient either half and half of all up front, no difference. 

Specific gravity could be 1.080 to not over power with alcohol. 

Can't recall if I added acid but do a test. Raisins optional. I believed I added 1 cup (6 gal batch) washed off. 

Stir frequently and keep at room temp. 

At 1.000 add 1 teaspoon super ferment per 6 gallons. Immediately stir well and snap on a lid with an airlock or snap on lid then unsnap 1 clasp. Leave alone 3 days. It will ferment below .990

I didn't add oak. Your preference. Clear with Sparkolloid for 6 weeks. Age 4-6 months. 

Back sweeten to preference. Use sorbate and inverted sugar. Allow to rest a few weeks. Bottle. Enjoy.


----------



## JohnT (Mar 20, 2014)

Corinth,

1) In red wine, I try to shoot for a PH of 3.4. 

2) I shoot for a TA of .65gpl (grams per liter)

3) I like a beginning temp of 75 degrees. This is because I prefer a hot fermentation and like to "burn off the fruit". Depending on the yeast, 
temps as low s 65 degrees will also work.


Other advise: Switch to bucket juice and serve the welches juice to your kids. 

*I would be disappointing a lot of folks if I didn't make a jab at Welch's at this point. It's not that I want to, it just that I have to) *


----------



## corinth (Mar 20, 2014)

*Welches Concord grape concentrate*

To all so far,
I am reading your words over and over again. I am taking notes, studying . looking up things, trying to make your information become second nature to me.
getting all my ducks in a row is not that bad as long as I know which ones are ducks and which duck goes first?
thank you so much for your time and effort
sincerely,
Corinth


----------



## Julie (Mar 20, 2014)

Like said before shoot for 3.4 of ph and .65% - .70% TA, and instead of raisins why not tannins? Also, I agree with Dj, adding nutrients can be either in two steps or all at once up front. Normally you would add nutrients in two steps for a wine that maybe difficult to ferment but Welch's is not a wine that is difficult to ferment so adding nutrients at the beginning would be fine.


----------



## Deezil (Mar 20, 2014)

Cornith, 

I'd love to help, but these folks have already nailed it all quite nicely


----------



## corinth (Mar 25, 2014)

*THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP!*
Since I first posted this request for help 3 moths ago, I have bought a lot more stuff, understand (basically)a lot more things and can kinda make sense of those funny looking equations with all the weird characters.

I want again to thank you all as I continue on my journey through life now including winemaking.

Blessings
corinth


----------



## K5MOW (Sep 22, 2014)

One question. If I use four cans of grape concentrate. Does this mean I would usually use less sugar to meet starting gravity. I have noticed that recipes out there show either two cans three cans or four cans of grape concentrate. My question is all those recipes still state a cup and a half of sugar. Wouldn't it be less sugar if you are using the more concentrate. 

Roger


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


----------



## djrockinsteve (Sep 22, 2014)

K5MOW said:


> One question. If I use four cans of grape concentrate. Does this mean I would usually use less sugar to meet starting gravity. I have noticed that recipes out there show either two cans three cans or four cans of grape concentrate. My question is all those recipes still state a cup and a half of sugar. Wouldn't it be less sugar if you are using the more concentrate.
> 
> Roger



Roger yes you will use less sugar. Concentrates all vary in the amount of sugar they contain. I would suggest adding the concentrate first with some water but not all. Check the gravity then go from there. It's real easy to over do the sugar. 

You can use the Pearson square (Tutorial Section) to be real precise.


----------



## K5MOW (Sep 22, 2014)

djrockinsteve said:


> Roger yes you will use less sugar. Concentrates all vary in the amount of sugar they contain. I would suggest adding the concentrate first with some water but not all. Check the gravity then go from there. It's real easy to over do the sugar.
> 
> 
> 
> You can use the Pearson square (Tutorial Section) to be real precise.




That's exactly what I will do thank you very much for the information. 


Sent from my iPhone using Wine Making


----------

