# Fall Wine Plans! A Storm is brewing....



## seth8530

My philosophy on many things in life is plan the work and work the plan. This is why I am putting online my plans for my fall 2013 juice order and fermentation plans.

I plan on ordering 12 gallons of chardonnay juice and 12 gallons of pinot noir juice as well as some skins or a lug of grapes for the pinot to give it better colour and flavour. Half of the batch will be fermented hot, the other half will be fermented cold.

*Pinot Noir*

My plan for my pinot noir is to go for a spicy mineraly wine. To accomplish this I plan on tailoring the fermentation kinetics and oak selection to try and wing the flavour profile in this direction. I plan on fermenting half the batch at close to 20C and the other half close to 30 C as per the minimum and maximum recommended fermentation temperatures for the selected yeast.

*Yeast:*

Enoferm AMH. Im hoping that this yeast will help develop some of that spicy character that I am after. Plus the ML compatibility is a great plus that will hopefully let me us MLF to help guide the flavour profile as well.



> Originating from the Geisenheim Research Institute, Enoferm AMH™ is a favorite for making Riesling, Pinot
> noir and Zinfandel. It is considered a color-friendly yeast that enhances spicy (clove, nutmeg) and fruit flavors
> and aromas while adding positive, smooth mouthfeel to the overall complexity. AMH™ has a long lag phase
> and a slow to medium fermentation rate. Therefore, a well-managed nutrient program during rehydration and
> fermentation is essential. Good ferment domination is obtained with AMH™ if the culture is allowed to develop
> in about 10% of the total must volume for 8 hours before final inoculation. Very malolactic bacteria compatible.
> It is cassified as a Saccharomyces kudriavzevii



Fermentation temp range 20-30C, slow fermenter, good to 15% abv, medium nitrogen needs, and low SO2 production. I will re hydrate the yeast with GO-ferm protect and 10% must.

*MLF Bacteria*
Lalvin Elios 1.

I plan on using it in the Pinot because of its spice contribution and its ability to work in tough conditions. I plan on co-inoculating this with the yeast. I will add the ML nutrient after AF is complete to ensure that the yeast does not decide to eat the ML bacteria food.



> For spice contribution and integration of highly ripened fruit
> Lalvin Elios 1® was isolated by the Institut Coopératif du Vin (ICV) in Montpellier, France, from spontaneous
> malolactic fermentations showing very good fermentation performance, as well as positive sensory profiles. The
> ICV evaluated and compared Lalvin Elios 1® to several other Oenococcus oeni isolates over several years in their
> research winery and pilot plant. Lalvin Elios 1® consistently demonstrated good fermentation kinetics under such
> difficult MLF conditions as high alcohol (15.5%). This malolactic bacteria culture enhances the perception of
> overall tannin intensity, while avoiding green and vegetative character development. Available only in MBR form.




*ML Nutrient*

Opti’Malo PLUS

I will add this in after fermentation is complete to insure that the yeast will not use this nutrient up instead of the ML bacteria.



> Opti’Malo PLUS™ was formulated to help support MLF in difficult wines. Add Opti’Malo PLUS™ directly to the
> wine before inoculating with the malolactic bacteria culture. Do not use Opti’Malo PLUS™ during bacteria
> rehydration. Opti’Malo PLUS™ is a unique blend of specific inactive yeasts rich in amino acids, mineral cofactors,
> vitamins and polysaccharides. These inactive yeasts provide more surface area to help keep bacteria in
> suspension, and to help absorb potential malolactic bacteria inhibitors.
> Dosage recommendation: Add 20 g/hL (1.6 lb/1000 gal) Opti’Malo PLUS™ to a small amount of water or wine
> and then add directly to the wine anytime from 48 hours prior to or up until the same time as the malolactic
> bacteria culture addition.



*Yest Ghost*

I plan on using Booster Rouge at the end of fermentation. I plan on using it because this year has been a hot summer for the grapes which seems to work well with Boster Rouge. Also, Booster Rouge claims to compliment short maceration times well which should help me out considering that I will be using a relatively small amount of grape skins in my fermentation. 



> Booster Rouge® originates from a specific natural wine yeast isolated and selected by the ICV. The yeast
> macromolecules in Booster Rouge® interact with red wine polyphenols resulting in a positive influence on the
> colloidal balance of the wine. Especially when used in red must sourced from hot climates, Booster Rouge®
> wines are perceived as having higher fore-mouth volume and smoother mid-palate tannic intensity, as well
> as fresher aromatic sensations.
> Booster Rouge® compliments short maceration premium reds fermented with Lalvin ICV GRE™ for smooth
> mid-palate intensity and fresh varietal aromas, while avoiding sensations of aggressive and drying tannins.
> In ultra-premium reds from balanced ripe mature grapes, Booster Rouge® shows good synergy with Lalvin ICV
> D80® and Lalvin ICV D21™ for enhancing licorice aromas and smooth mid-palate intensity. Booster Rouge®
> may also be added towards the end of fermentation to contribute fore-mouth volume, smoother mid-palate
> tannin intensity and help with alcohol integration.
> Dosage recommendation: Add Booster Rouge® to the must at 227 g/ton (0.5 lb/ton) or 30 g/hL (2.4
> lb/1000 gal) towards the end of fermentation.




*Yeast Nutrient*

This in my opinion will the the crown on the kings head for my plan. I plan on using Fermaid O because it is an organic amino acid nitrogen source. The advantage of using this kind of nitrogen is that you get a much more level fermentation with less spikes in activity, lower sulfur production, and better aromatics. Plus, organic nitrogen can be used by the yeast later on in the fermentation that DAP can. I plan on assuming that the yeast will need 350 mg/L YAN ( I have read studies that show after 270 mg/L for medium nitrogen need yeast their is little added benefit) and I will also assume that my must has 100 mg/L YAN. This is pretty conservative because 100 mg/L YAN seems to be on the low end for grape must but I have heard of some having up to 200 mg/L. 

I plan on adding in 250 mg/L of YAN. This equates to 6.25 grams of Fermaid O per liter. After AF starts I will start adding Fermaid O in 6 additions. So once at end of lag and then all the way up to the 2/3 sugar break every 10% of the way through the fermentation.

I got my Fermaid O to YAN conversion from an email from a Scott labs person as well as a white paper. They both say that .3 grams per liter Fermaid O adds 12 mg/L YAN





> Fermaid O™ is the latest nutrient developed by our winemaking nutrient research team headed by Dr. Anne
> Ortiz-Julien. Fermaid O is a blend of inactivated yeast fractions rich in organic nitrogen. Fermaid O™ does not
> contain added ammonia salts (DAP) or micronutrients. The importance of organic nitrogen from yeasts is well
> known as a highly efficient nutrient source for wine yeasts, especially when compared to inorganic nitrogen
> from DAP. In addition, Fermaid O™ consistently produces lower heat of fermentation and lower levels of
> negative sulfur compounds, compared with DAP. With its organic nitrogen, Fermaid O™ can help winemakers
> achieve steady fermentations, while limiting temperature peaks. When inorganic nitrogen (DAP) additions are
> NOT desired, the use of Go-Ferm® or GO-FERM PROTECT evolution ® and Fermaid O™ is recommended. With
> this combination, Go-Ferm® or GO-FERM PROTECT evolution ® provides needed micronutrients during yeast
> rehydration, and Fermaid O (when added at 1/3 sugar depletion) supplies critical nutrients to help the yeast
> avoid stressed conditions. Note: In low nutrient situations, yeast available nitrogen may be insufficient to
> avoid fermentation problems. Refer to page 40 for dosage recommendations.



*Oak*

I plan on using 3 oz of Hungarian oak cubes per 6 gallons in the pinot noir. I am using a medium toast level because I am not after vanilla flavours but more of the pepper and leather notes that Hungarian oak is known to give. I would use a spiral but I have been unable to find any of those for Hungarian.

*Re-hydration Nutrient*

Go ferm Protect as a dosage of 7 grams per packet of yeast re-hydrated. The advantage of using a re hydration nutrient goes further than just making sure the yeast wakes up ready to eat sugar. It also helps develop sterols which help protect yeast from alcohol, PH and temperature swings. This along with the nutrients inside of the re hydration nutrient helps ensure that the fermentation will go smooth all the way through, not just on the onset.



> GO-FERM PROTECT evolution ® optimizes the micronutrient bioavailability of Go-Ferm with the added benefit
> of survival factor protection through the NATSTEP® process. These survival factors include specific sterols and
> polyunsaturated fatty acids that strengthen the yeast membrane during rehydration, making it more resistant
> to fermentation stress. GO-FERM PROTECT evolution ® is used in the yeast rehydration water to create a
> suspension of micronutrients and survival factors that are bioavailable for selected yeasts. GO-FERM PROTECT
> evolution ® is recommended in place of Go-Ferm® for very difficult fermentation conditions, such as:
> 1. High maturity conditions (>25° Brix) to protect yeast against osmotic shock, helping avoid high
> VA production during fermentation.
> 2. High potential alcohol conditions to protect yeast against alcohol toxicity, helping avoid sluggish
> fermentation finishes.
> 3. Over clarified juices to help supply key yeast survival factors.
> 4. Restarting stuck fermentations to protect and condition the “rescue yeast” against high alcohol
> conditions.
> 5. When oxygen additions are not possible during fermentation.
> Dosage recommendations: Use 30 g/hL (2.4 lb/1000 gal) of GO-FERM PROTECT evolution ® to stimulate and
> protect the rehydrating yeast.
> Note: This recommendation is based on a yeast inoculum of 25 g/hL (2 lb/1000 gal). If using more or less
> yeast, respect a ratio of 1 part yeast:1.25 parts GO-FERM PROTECT evolution ®




*Chardonnay*

The over all plan on this one is to create a wine that will have a creamy taste from MLF along with a nice woody structure to provide volume and depth with fruit notes to give a sense of freshness to the wine. To do this, I plan on utilizing many of the same tricks from the Pinot Noir.

*Yeast:*
D47.. Good ol D47 I plan on using D47 because it is known for full bodied silky mouthfeel chard fermentation. Plus the fact that when the wine is left on the lees that it can create spicy aromas with tropical and citrus notes seems promising. If it makes jam like aromas... all the better. I plan on fermenting half at close to 15C and the other half near 28C



> Lalvin ICV D47™ is a Côtes du Rhône isolate from Suze-la-Rousse for the production of full-bodied
> barrel fermented Chardonnay and other white varietals. When left on lees, ripe spicy aromas with
> tropical and citrus notes are developed. ICV D47™ is a high polysaccharide producer known for its accentuated
> fruit and great volume.
> On most white grape varieties, this yeast elaborates wines with ripe stable fruits or jam-like aromas. Thanks
> to these aromas, the cuvées fermented with the ICV D47™ are a good source of complexity in the blends.
> Moreover, ICV D47™ contributes to the wine’s silkiness and persistence. Excellent results are obtained for
> the production of top-of-the-range Chardonnay fermented in barrels, especially when blended with Lalvin ICV
> D21® fermented Chardonnays.



*MLF Bacteria*
Lalvin Elios 1.

I plan on using the same ML bacteria because frankly 1 gram of this stuff cost around 30 bucks and is enough for 60 gallons. Also, its characters seemed to match pretty well with what I have in mind for the chard considering it is supposed to give nice ripened fruit notes. I plan on co-inoculating this with the yeast. Perhaps waiting a day or 2 after AF starts to get let the So2 drop a bit from the K-meta addition.



*ML Nutrient*

Opti’Malo PLUS Same story as with the Pinot Noir

I will add this in after fermentation is complete to insure that the yeast will not use this nutrient up instead of the ML bacteria.


*Yeast Ghost*

Opti-White

I plan on adding the Opti-White in two additions. Once at the beginning to try and avoid oxidation issues and to help protect colour and aromatic freshness. Supposedly it will bring roundness and smoothness to the wine which goes along with my idea of creating a full bodied chard. I plan on two additions. One before fermentation, and one at the 2/3 sugar break as per the dosage recommended.



> Opti-White® is a specific inactivated yeast with high antioxidant properties. Its application in white wines is
> patent pending. Using Opti-White® on the juice at the beginning of fermentation results in smoothness and
> greater aromatic complexity in white wines. As its unique properties protect against oxidation of phenols and
> aromas, Opti-White® contributes to better color preservation and the aromatic freshness of white wines. Yeast
> cell wall components from Opti-White® will be solubilized during fermentation and aging. These polysaccharides
> will have a very positive impact, bringing more roundness and smoothness to the wine. Their action will
> enhance the benefits of autolysis following alcoholic fermentation.
> Dosage recommendations: Add Opti-White® to the juice at 30-50 g/hL (2.4-4 lb/1000 gal) for smoothness,
> antioxidative color protection and aromatic freshness. Add Opti-White® towards the end of fermentation at
> 20-30 g/hL (1.6-2.4 lb/1000 gal) for smoothness and better integration of wood and alcohol.



*Yeast Nutrient*

I plan on following the same plan as with the Pinot Nior. The only thing I might change is that if I end up getting a good YAN estimate of my juice I might adjust my dosing a bit. Im hoping this is where the use of Fermaid O will shine the most due to the aromatic preservation.

*Oak*

I plan on using medium toasted french oak spirals. I am hoping to get some nice structure from the oak as well as these ellsusive sounding burn cream flavours. I do not want to go to overboard with the toast because I want the wines natural flavours to come through really well, but I feel like it will certainly need some oak.

*Re-hydration Nutrient*

Go ferm Protect as a dosage of 7 grams per packet of yeast re-hydrated. Same story as above.


Well that is the over all plan. Once these guys have aged for a year and half I will consider blending or leaving them separate just to highlight the differences in fermentation temperature. I am opting not to do a super hot fermentation for the pinot noir because I do not want to stress the yeast. This fermentation is all about making the yeast as happy as possible. Instead to get maximum colour extraction from the grapes I will stir them 2 or 3 times a day to make sure that extraction is going well. I plan on keeping the cold fermenters cold by tossing in frozen water bottles and I will keep the warm guys warm by keeping them in closets with heaters inside them if needed.


Any thoughts of comments? Questions? Snide remarks? Advice? This will be my first Euro style wine fermentation so I am excited. I guess the only thing I have not talked about is which region should I get my juice from... Any available advice on that would be great!


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## jamesngalveston

I think you have a plan....


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## GaDawg

Shouldn't that be "A Brew is Storming"


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## Turock

You might want to rethink the co-fermentation of the yeast and the MLB. It's always wise to ferment first, THEN introduce the MLB. Pinot Noir needs a LOT of time to age too. So be real patient with it even if you think the flavor profile you're trying to create will make it more flavorful. Typically, we bulk age it a year, then bottle and allow it to age to at least its second year before we start drinking it. It's even better at the 3rd year, producing chocolate notes.

Have you ever made fruit style Chard? Meaning no MLF. There's no doubt that an MLF'd Chard is really good, but I also really favor a good fruit style Chard too. Be sure you get very good juice. One year, we got some from Chile and it tasted like water. The Chard from Calif is far better. Sometimes, the place selling the juice will have samples of the juice so you can taste it before you buy it---that is a good way to get excellent juice.


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## JohnT

I always bulk age my pinot for at least two years, and let rest in the bottle for another year (pulling a bottle every so ofter to taste it). 

Pinot can be a REAL b**ch. If seems to me to be one of thaose wines that is just unforgiving. Its very delicate flavor is simply spectacular when it all goes right, but undrinkable when the slightest thing goes wrong. 

My advice is this. Make two different reds. I always have two reds to choose from (especially when I make pinot). My favorite is Petit Sarah. This is a grape that is VERY forgiving of even major faults.

With two reds, you can hedge your bets.


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## ShawnDTurner

Seth nice plan. I would go with a lug for each 6 gallons of pinot. I did this with my Chilean pinot noir this spring. You will be very pleased.


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## seth8530

JohnT said:


> I always bulk age my pinot for at least two years, and let rest in the bottle for another year (pulling a bottle every so ofter to taste it).
> 
> Pinot can be a REAL b**ch. If seems to me to be one of thaose wines that is just unforgiving. Its very delicate flavor is simply spectacular when it all goes right, but undrinkable when the slightest thing goes wrong.
> 
> My advice is this. Make two different reds. I always have two reds to choose from (especially when I make pinot). My favorite is Petit Sarah. This is a grape that is VERY forgiving of even major faults.
> 
> With two reds, you can hedge your bets.



Thanks for the advice, I will be sure to be careful with it. however, I plan on hedging my bets in a way by also making a chard. That way, I still have a wine to enjoy making even if the pinot fails. Anyways, if I mess it up I will consider it a lesson learned.  I fell in love with pinot noir after I tried this really earthy minearly one.. and I just loved it. That is kind of what I am shooting for.



Turock said:


> You might want to rethink the co-fermentation of the yeast and the MLB. It's always wise to ferment first, THEN introduce the MLB. Pinot Noir needs a LOT of time to age too. So be real patient with it even if you think the flavor profile you're trying to create will make it more flavorful. Typically, we bulk age it a year, then bottle and allow it to age to at least its second year before we start drinking it. It's even better at the 3rd year, producing chocolate notes.
> 
> Have you ever made fruit style Chard? Meaning no MLF. There's no doubt that an MLF'd Chard is really good, but I also really favor a good fruit style Chard too. Be sure you get very good juice. One year, we got some from Chile and it tasted like water. The Chard from Calif is far better. Sometimes, the place selling the juice will have samples of the juice so you can taste it before you buy it---that is a good way to get excellent juice.



Ya know, I have been doing some reading on it and I have found some really interesting articles that seem to really favour co-inoculation because it allows the MLB to get slowly acclimated to the environment and rising alcohol that they will be fermenting in. However, I do agree I have heard both sides of the argument. 

Yeah, I plan on letting this guy sit for a couple of years. That is part of the reason why I am doing 12 gallons.

As far as the chard goes, I have never made one before. I got inspired to make one when I tried out 2009 vintage Ramey Chardonnay (Sonoma Coast)
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1155464

I plan on doing MLF not only for flavor but also for stability, since sometimes you have to worry about the wine doing MLF on its own if you do not put it through it.. However, I am open to suggestions. This being my first chard and pinot I am kind of wanting to do things the more standard way.. However, can you recommend me a good chard that is really strong on the fruit notes?




ShawnDTurner said:


> Seth nice plan. I would go with a lug for each 6 gallons of pinot. I did this with my Chilean pinot noir this spring. You will be very pleased.



Shawn, thanks and you will be pleased to hear that I plan on buying grapes for both of these wines now. Hopefully this will lead to a better product. I heard it takes about 13 lbs of grapes per gallon.. Does that sound correct?


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## ShawnDTurner

More like 18. It takes about 85 -90 lbs of grapes to make 5 gallons of juice. I added 3 lugs that were 18 lbs each to 18 gallons of Pinot Noir. This enhanced the colour, body and aroma. You will be amazed at the difference. Cheers!


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## seth8530

Wow, this sure sounds like this might be bizarrely expensive. How much did you get your grapes for?


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## ShawnDTurner

If I remember correctly 32 bucks a lug


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## Deezil

Seth,

A lot of WA Chardonnays go without MLF and oak is hit-or-miss. The WA climate makes for brighter acid (hot days, cool nights; 40-50F differene between day- and night-time) and a fruitier profile where sometimes Cali (hot days, hot nights; no cold nights to preserve the acidity) can bake the fruitiness right out of the fruit - which is why Cali Chard's are the ones primarily oaked and MLF'd... Just a general consensus, there's exceptions to every rule.

I like the plan, overall. 
Couple things;

With the Opti-White... Instead of doing a 2-part Opti-White addition, you could consider 1 addition of Opti-White and 1 addition of Booster Blanc.. They're similiar, but different. Just a thought.

Did I skip over Opti-Red on Pinot? Or did you choose to skip it? Any reason?

Have you considered additional tannins for either batch? Something like FT Blanc/Rouge (both have a 'Soft' version as well).. If you can really let these sit for a few years (stash your Port with these btw), then that time would let these additional tannins, shine.

I'm excited to see your reaction to a Fermaid-O only fermentation. I've been doing it for some time now, and I'm sure you'll see a difference.


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## JohnT

ShawnDTurner said:


> More like 18. It takes about 85 -90 lbs of grapes to make 5 gallons of juice. I added 3 lugs that were 18 lbs each to 18 gallons of Pinot Noir. This enhanced the colour, body and aroma. You will be amazed at the difference. Cheers!


 
I think your weights are a little high. I find that 2 lugs (more times than not) will fill a carboy. A lug is usually either 36 or 42 pounds, so 72 to 84 pounds should do ya.

I, However, agree with you that you should go with 3 lugs for a 5 gallon batch. You need top off after racking. 3 lugs should fill your carboy and also provide close to 2 gallons of top off.


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## JohnT

seth8530 said:


> Thanks for the advice, I will be sure to be careful with it. however, I plan on hedging my bets in a way by also making a chard. That way, I still have a wine to enjoy making even if the pinot fails. Anyways, if I mess it up I will consider it a lesson learned.  I fell in love with pinot noir after I tried this really earthy minearly one.. and I just loved it. That is kind of what I am shooting for.
> 
> 
> seth8530 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seth: I agree. A good pinot is amazing. I made one in 2008 that is still a legend.
Click to expand...


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## Boatboy24

seth8530 said:


> Wow, this sure sounds like this might be bizarrely expensive. How much did you get your grapes for?




It's cheaper than buying a high end kit. I did two batches of Chilean wine this spring and paid ~$52 for each bucket, plus $28 for each 18lb lug of grapes. Add in yeast, MLB, nutrients, etc and I'm still only at $100 per 6 gallon batch, and I have extra for topping up/sampling. Obviously, the jury is still out on these wines, but I have high expectations.


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> Seth,
> 
> A lot of WA Chardonnays go without MLF and oak is hit-or-miss. The WA climate makes for brighter acid (hot days, cool nights; 40-50F differene between day- and night-time) and a fruitier profile where sometimes Cali (hot days, hot nights; no cold nights to preserve the acidity) can bake the fruitiness right out of the fruit - which is why Cali Chard's are the ones primarily oaked and MLF'd... Just a general consensus, there's exceptions to every rule.
> 
> I like the plan, overall.
> Couple things;
> 
> With the Opti-White... Instead of doing a 2-part Opti-White addition, you could consider 1 addition of Opti-White and 1 addition of Booster Blanc.. They're similiar, but different. Just a thought.
> 
> Did I skip over Opti-Red on Pinot? Or did you choose to skip it? Any reason?
> 
> Have you considered additional tannins for either batch? Something like FT Blanc/Rouge (both have a 'Soft' version as well).. If you can really let these sit for a few years (stash your Port with these btw), then that time would let these additional tannins, shine.
> 
> I'm excited to see your reaction to a Fermaid-O only fermentation. I've been doing it for some time now, and I'm sure you'll see a difference.





Booter Rouge and Opti-Red are both inactivated yeast products. Here read the description and compare them. I am open to suggestions. The original reason why I chose Rouge was because it was supposed to reduce astringent tannins. and my main reason for choosing it was because 

"Especially when used in red must sourced from hot climates, Booster Roug
wines are perceived as having higher fore-mouth volume and smoother mid-palate tannic intensity, as wellas fresher aromatic sensations." I decided that kind of matched up with the current cali season because they are going thrugh a heat wave right now.



> For higher and smoother tannin intensity in red wines
> Booster Rouge® originates from a specific natural wine yeast isolated and selected by the ICV. The yeast
> macromolecules in Booster Rouge® interact with red wine polyphenols resulting in a positive influence on the
> colloidal balance of the wine. Especially when used in red must sourced from hot climates, Booster Rouge®
> wines are perceived as having higher fore-mouth volume and smoother mid-palate tannic intensity, as well
> as fresher aromatic sensations.
> Booster Rouge® compliments short maceration premium reds fermented with Lalvin ICV GRE™ for smooth
> mid-palate intensity and fresh varietal aromas, while avoiding sensations of aggressive and drying tannins.
> In ultra-premium reds from balanced ripe mature grapes, Booster Rouge® shows good synergy with Lalvin ICV
> D80® and Lalvin ICV D21™ for enhancing licorice aromas and smooth mid-palate intensity. Booster Rouge®
> may also be added towards the end of fermentation to contribute fore-mouth volume, smoother mid-palate
> tannin intensity and help with alcohol integration.
> Dosage recommendation: Add Booster Rouge® to the must at 227 g/ton (0.5 lb/ton) or 30 g/hL (2.4
> lb/1000 gal) towards the end of fermentation.



VS


> For rounded and smooth tannin red wines
> Opti-Red® is a unique natural yeast preparation that undergoes a specific refining process resulting in a high
> level of polyphenol-reactive yeast cell wall polysaccharides. Opti-Red® is used at the beginning of red wine
> fermentations to obtain fuller bodied, more color stable, smooth palate wines.
> Using Opti-Red® in the must provides early polysaccharide availability for the complexing with polyphenols
> as soon as they are released and diffused. This early complexing results in smoother red wines with more
> stable color, rounder mouthfeel and better harsh or green tannin integration. Opti-Red® can be used alone or
> in conjunction with enological macerating enzymes such as Lallzyme EX™. Using Opti-Red® towards the end
> of fermentation allows the winemaker to shape harsh polyphenols into smoother more approachable tannins.
> Dosage recommendation: Add Opti-Red® to the must at 227 g/ton (0.5 lb/ton) or 30 g/hL (2.4 lb/1000 gal)
> towards the end of fermentation.



So which one do you think would do better under the circumstances? I am open to suggestions.

I have not considered the addition of extra tannins because I plan on fermenting on the skins as well as a few whole clusters for the pinot noir. I am hoping that will give me the tannins I want without over doing it. Plus the use of oak should provide all the tannins I need.


"ith the Opti-White... Instead of doing a 2-part Opti-White addition, you could consider 1 addition of Opti-White and 1 addition of Booster Blanc.. They're similiar, but different. Just a thought."

Why do you recommend doing this? BTW I am pulling all this information from their NA 2013 catolouge.

As far as the oak goes on the chard I plan on watching it very carefully. I plan on getting some cali chard grapes because I want to go with a more mellow full bodied creme flavor approach instead of the ripe and fruity and acidic style if that makes any sense at all to you. Thoughts?

And oh yeah, you can bet the farm that I am excited about using fermaid O. One thing I have considered doing is research what vitamins go into a wine must, and adding those into a mead must and then using fermaid O as the sole nutrient. Something to think about eh?


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## seth8530

Boatboy24 said:


> It's cheaper than buying a high end kit. I did two batches of Chilean wine this spring and paid ~$52 for each bucket, plus $28 for each 18lb lug of grapes. Add in yeast, MLB, nutrients, etc and I'm still only at $100 per 6 gallon batch, and I have extra for topping up/sampling. Obviously, the jury is still out on these wines, but I have high expectations.



Hmm, that is interesting.. I really hope that this falls grapes will be a little bit cheaper than that... Hopefully it will be cheaper to use just grapes instead of using a grape and juice mixture.


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## Deezil

What I was getting at, was not to 'choose one' but to 'use both'
Either-or for the beginning, and the opposite for the end. 

From your quotes:

In the beginning;

Booster Rouge


> Especially when used in red must sourced from hot climates, Booster Rouge® wines are perceived as having *higher fore-mouth volume* and *smoother mid-palate tannic intensity*, as well as *fresher aromatic sensations*.



Opti-Red


> Using Opti-Red® in the must provides early polysaccharide availability for the complexing with polyphenols as soon as they are released and diffused. This early complexing results in *smoother red wines* with *more stable colo*r, *rounder mouthfeel* and *better harsh or green tannin integration*.




Or at the end;

Booster Rouge


> Booster Rouge® may also be added towards the end of fermentation to contribute *fore-mouth volume*, *smoother mid-palate tannin intensity* and help with *alcohol integration*.



Opti-Red


> Using Opti-Red® towards the end of fermentation allows the winemaker to *shape harsh polyphenols into smoother more approachable tannins*.




So given these quotes, I'd be leaning towards Opti-Red in the must/beginning & Booster Rouge at the end..

Opti-Red; beginning
*smoother red wines*
*more stable colo*r
*rounder mouthfeel*
*better harsh or green tannin integration*

+

Booster Rouge; ending
*fore-mouth volume*
*smoother mid-palate tannin intensity
**alcohol integration*.


Although when I use both, I stay towards the lower side of the dosage recommendations, because I know I'm using both and while they somewhat-overlap, they bring different attributes to the party.. I want all the attributes without overdoing the overlapping.. If that makes sense..

It's the same thought process for white wines, and if you want the "more mellow full bodied creme flavor approach instead of the ripe and fruity and acidic style", which makes perfect sense to me, then so does the double-whammy of using both Booster Blanc & Opti-White... The combo will bring the full body, it'll bring in some minerality, it'll prop up the finish, while stabilizing the color..

I do it for the "Best of both worlds" concept, basically... When done right, why not do it?


----------



## seth8530

Now that is an interesting idea. I will need to discuss that with my GF lol, she is the copilot so I will need to run it by her.. But that is a rather interesting idea. However, the opti red followed by rouge at the end of fermentation sounds really promising....

BTW where are you getting the milerality from combining Booster blanc and opti white?


----------



## seth8530

JohnT said:


> I think your weights are a little high. I find that 2 lugs (more times than not) will fill a carboy. A lug is usually either 36 or 42 pounds, so 72 to 84 pounds should do ya.
> 
> I, However, agree with you that you should go with 3 lugs for a 5 gallon batch. You need top off after racking. 3 lugs should fill your carboy and also provide close to 2 gallons of top off.



Hmm, so I plan on doing around 12 gallons so 5-6 lugs might be able to get me... depending on how I press..



JohnT said:


> seth8530 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice, I will be sure to be careful with it. however, I plan on hedging my bets in a way by also making a chard. That way, I still have a wine to enjoy making even if the pinot fails. Anyways, if I mess it up I will consider it a lesson learned.  I fell in love with pinot noir after I tried this really earthy minearly one.. and I just loved it. That is kind of what I am shooting for.
> 
> 
> seth8530 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seth: I agree. A good pinot is amazing. I made one in 2008 that is still a legend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, here is hoping to a good pinot noir... BTW, you have any recommendations for me to try out?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> BTW where are you getting the milerality from combining Booster blanc and opti white?



My bad... Thats the FT Blanc Soft (tannin), I was remembering.. Not Opti-White or Booster Blanc 



> Opti-WHITE® is certified organic by OMRI. Lallemand introduced this natural yeast derivative nutrient for use in white wine production after an extensive three-year research program. When added to the juice at the onset of fermentation, Opti-WHITE enhances smoothness, helps avoid browning from oxidation and protects fresh aromas during aging. Opti-WHITE is made using a specific production process that results in a yeast de*rivative rich in polysaccharides and high in anti-oxidant peptides (glutathione). These anti-oxidative properties work synergistically with SO2 allowing the winemaker to potentially lower the SO2 dosage. Opti-WHITE may also be added in the last stages of alcoholic fermentation to help bring out flavor profiles often associated with aging on lees.





> Booster Blanc® is a yeast derivative nutrient from Lal*lemand. It was developed from an ICV strain for whites and rosés. Booster Blanc smooths mid-palate intensity and fresh varietal fruit aromas while diminishing bitterness, vegetal and chemical perceptions. It can help maintain freshness and aroma stability in wines that go through MLF. When used at the beginning of fermenta*tion, it can be helpful in lowering the production of off-sulfur compounds (notably in botrytised grapes). Booster Blanc can be added toward the end of fermenta*tion to help reveal muted aromatics. To help decrease the perception of woody aromas, add before aging in new barrels. Booster Blanc greatly complements premium whites or rosés from mature grapes that are fermented with ICV D21 and ICV GRE.




Just breaking these down so you and anyone who checks this thread can see the other side of the coin (red vs white)

Beginning; 

Opti-White


> When added to the juice at the onset of fermentation, Opti-WHITE *enhances smoothness*, helps *avoid browning from oxidation* and* protects fresh aromas during aging*.



Booster Blanc


> Booster Blanc *smooths mid-palate intensity* and *fresh varietal fruit aromas* while *diminishing bitterness, vegetal and chemical perceptions*.





> When used at the beginning of fermenta*tion, it can be helpful in *lowering the production of off-sulfur compounds* (notably in botrytised grapes).




Ending;

Opti-White


> Opti-WHITE may also be added in the last stages of alcoholic fermentation to help *bring out flavor profiles often associated with aging on lees.*



Booster Blanc


> It can help *maintain freshness and aroma stability in wines that go through MLF*.





> Booster Blanc can be added toward the end of fermenta*tion to help *reveal muted aromatics*. To help *decrease the perception of woody aromas*, add before aging in new barrels.




Opti-White beginning + Booster Blanc ending:

Opti-White;
*enhances smoothness*
*avoid browning from oxidation
**protects fresh aromas during aging*

+

Booster Blanc;
*maintain freshness and aroma stability in wines that go through MLF*.
*reveal muted aromatics*
*decrease the perception of woody aromas*


It seems like my personal notes offer up more that these all do (Opti-White/-Red & Booster Blanc/Rouge) than these two pages (sources for quotes) offer but I dont want to throw out information right now that I can only back-up with a printed out paper that I have in front of me

Again, my bad, the minerality quote is from the FT Blanc Soft - but thats the 3rd side of my tri-fecta


----------



## seth8530

Hmm, thanks for the clarification.. I might actually give FT blanc soft a look at...

BTW, I am having trouble finding additional info on FT blanc


----------



## Deezil

FT Blanc

Webpage
PDF

FT Blanc Soft

Webpage
PDF


----------



## seth8530

Thanks, I was surprised I could not find it in the form I was looking at.

Ahh!, no wonder I could not find them... They are not yeast ghost they are tannins! I will need to read into them some extra more then!


----------



## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> Ahh!, no wonder I could not find them... They are not yeast ghost they are tannins! I will need to read into them some extra more then!





Deezil said:


> My bad... Thats the *FT Blanc Soft (tannin)*, I was remembering..
> 
> .....
> 
> Again, my bad, the minerality quote is from the FT Blanc Soft - but thats the 3rd side of my tri-fecta



They sure are; thats why I asked:



Deezil said:


> Have you considered additional tannins for either batch? Something like *FT Blanc/Rouge (both have a 'Soft' version as well)*.. If you can really let these sit for a few years (stash your Port with these btw), then that time would let these additional tannins, shine.



And yeah, extra reading! 
 Good stuff!


----------



## seth8530

Deezil said:


> They sure are; thats why I asked:
> 
> 
> 
> And yeah, extra reading!
> Good stuff!



Shh, long day at work lol. I spent the day making a presentation for my boss that he will be presenting to me and my other fellow interns tomorrow lol.


----------



## Turock

Seth--From what others have said who live in Calif., some of the wineries there are starting to produce fruit style Chard. We made it one year from Calif juice and it was really excellent. So it's your call as to which way you want to go. But if a spontanious MLF is a concern to you, you can use lysosyme to prevent it.


----------



## seth8530

Turock said:


> Seth--From what others have said who live in Calif., some of the wineries there are starting to produce fruit style Chard. We made it one year from Calif juice and it was really excellent. So it's your call as to which way you want to go. But if a spontanious MLF is a concern to you, you can use lysosyme to prevent it.



That is true and is something to consider...

So I got an idea. What if I was to take my pressed skins ( after fermenting on the pinot to dry) and mix them with the un used pressed chard skins and make a second run wine out of it?


----------



## seth8530

BTW, got a question for yall sur di le guys ( spelling is wrong). Do yall on racking from primary to secondary rack as clear as you can and just wait for my yeast to fall out during the secondary and stir that stuff up from time to time.. Or do you on first racking suck up some of the lees from the bottom and swirl that stuff in suspension from time to time?


----------



## Turock

The way we've done it is to rack off all the bulk lees. Once you have that fine dusting of lees on the bottom, THAT is what you start stirring up a couple times a week. Stir gently--don't whip air into the wine.

Regarding your question on the skins. Sure, why not? That sounds pretty interesting. Combine the skins and add some water--maybe just enough to cover skins. Don't want to dilute too much. Be sure the ferment takes off---you could use some of the gross lees off one of those wines for the culture.


----------



## robie

For surlie, you don't want anything in the lees but dead yeast cells. Anything else can rot and spoil the wine. Before you rack to secondary, stir the wine so the yeast are in suspension. Then let the wine settle for about 30 minutes and rack, leaving all the big stuff behind. The yeast will still be in suspension but the larger lees will have settled out.

Once you have racked, let the wine completely finish fermenting, then go ahead and add your stabilizing k-meta. (Some don't stabilize until after surlie is done, but in a home environment, you could be taking a change on the wine spoiling, depending on how long you do surlie.)

You can simply let the wine set on the lees and not stir, which takes longer for the wine to pick up the surlie characteristics, or you can also stir (battonage), which is the norm.

Stir (battonage) once per week; at the most twice per week. Generally it will take a week before the last stir's results have settled back to the bottom. Every week before you stir, taste the wine and decide when you have enough of the yeasty, biscuity, nutty flavor you want. Once you are satisfied, rack off the yeast sediment and begin the clearing process. It is typical to battonage for 6 to 8 weeks, depending on your individual taste.

Be mindful that surlie/battonage will greatly reduce any fruitiness that might have otherwise been present in the wine. Don't try it on a aromatic wine, like Riesling or a Gwerts. Only lite reds should be considered for this process and that not very often.


----------



## seth8530

Thanks for the advice guys, I definitely plan on doing this to the chard. I wounder what kind of impact this would have on a pinot noir? One of the major goals of this wine making adventure is to produce a wine that is akin to what you would find from one of the classic wine regions of France. So, that kind of means I need to steer away from the uber fruity style just a bit.

@ Turock,

I am not sure if I will be able to to start completely from skins because it is looking like the cost of refrigerate shipping all the way from cali might just be way too much.. However, frozen must is certainly on the table. At M&M they sell frozen must that is simply crushed grapes on juice, the shipping for that would be way cheaper because they ship the pail froze to you thus no need for refrigerated shipping. 

In this case I might end up using frozen must instead of fresh grapes, which would mean that I would get juice for the chard and frozen must for the pinot noir. If this ends up happening I will make a pyment with the pinot skins and carrot blossom honey. Ie, mostly mead but fermented on pinot noir skins to try and make a rose ish wine.

I started a sub thread for the mead in the mead section of the forums.


----------



## shoebiedoo

I was always under the impression that white wine, frozen must is pressed already. US this not true?


----------



## seth8530

Yes that is correct, frozen white wine must comes in the form of frozen juice.


----------



## Turock

Seth---I presume you're going to MLF the Pinot Noir--is that correct? Or were you saying you'd like to do the sur lie on the Pinot Noir? If doing the sur lie on it, would that mean no MLF?

My experience with Pinot Noir is that you don't want it to be in fruit style. It is a terrible tasting wine, IMO, in fruit style. It has an odd taste and is on the harsh side. MLF brings out everything that is positive about this grape, and makes it robust and smooth, with nice flavor characteristics. Be prepared, tho, for years of aging. We bulk age one year, then bottle and age for another 2-3 years.


----------



## seth8530

Yes, I intend on MLFn the Chard and Pinot and possibly applying sur lie on both of them as well. On the pinot noir I am wanting more of earthy spicy flavours than anything else. I have heard the same about pinot noir... That is one one of the reasons I hope I have a chance to make at least 12 gallons of it.


----------



## Turock

Well, a spicy,earthy profile is not exactly how I would describe Pinot Noir. Are you intending to force it in that direction?

Pinot Noir is more on the chocolate side. There is no spice notes to it at all. I've had Pinot Noir with intense buttery taste to it but I've never been able to replicate all that butter on any MLF I've ever done on it.

I'm unsure how much you can accomplish with sur lie on a Pinot Noir. That grape is famous for it's flavors being hidden for quite some time. If you can stand to leave it alone for 2-3 years, then the flavors begin to open up. Be sure to aeriate that wine when you pour it into a glass---that helps too.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Spicy notes more on the finish, especially with Chilean pinot. Aeration... to aerate or not aerate pinot that is the question? Most would say no. .. being the delicate aroma profile of the wine. Cheers


----------



## Turock

Oh, I think it has far more flavor when you aerate.


----------



## seth8530

Turock said:


> Well, a spicy,earthy profile is not exactly how I would describe Pinot Noir. Are you intending to force it in that direction?
> 
> Pinot Noir is more on the chocolate side. There is no spice notes to it at all. I've had Pinot Noir with intense buttery taste to it but I've never been able to replicate all that butter on any MLF I've ever done on it.
> 
> I'm unsure how much you can accomplish with sur lie on a Pinot Noir. That grape is famous for it's flavors being hidden for quite some time. If you can stand to leave it alone for 2-3 years, then the flavors begin to open up. Be sure to aeriate that wine when you pour it into a glass---that helps too.



Hmm, interesting advice guys. I had a really good pinot before and it was rather mineraly and I found I really enjoyed that. However, I imagine a slightly spicy mineral laced dark chocolate flavour profile would be amazing.. Think this is possible? I wonder what Sur lie would give a pinot noir......


----------



## soccer0ww

That is quite the write up. Enjoyed reading all you would like to do with the wine and I look forward to reading about how your experiment turns out. Someday I would like to do more than kits.


----------



## seth8530

Thanks, I appreciate your interest. I am slightly concerned that I might have to scale back my plans for this fall due to financial constraints.. But hopefully the essence of this experiment will survive.


----------



## Deezil

Thought I would share this latest find:

3001

"Isolated, studied and selected from the prestigious Côte de Nuits terroir in Burgundy during a three-year research project by Laboratory Burgundia Oenologie in Beaune, France. The goal of this selection program was to find *a dominant natural yeast strain from a traditional “cold soak” that would elaborate intense, complex and balanced Pinot Noir varietal character*. The 3001 strain stood out from other strains. Wines made with it were *noted for fruit and varietal characters that were both elegant and complex*. This yeast has *moderate nitrogen demands* but will benefit from proper nutrition and aeration, these factors becoming increasingly important as your *potential alcohol content rises above 13%*. This strain is *tolerant to standard SO2 additions and low temperatures (down to 12°C/54°F)* for a steady and reliable alcoholic fermentation following cold soak. *The 3001 yeast is specifically for high quality cold soak Pinot Noir destined for aging*."


----------



## seth8530

Nice find Deezil, it sounds really promising considering I plan on doing a nice long cold soak prior to fermentation. Also, not sure if you know but I managed to snag a deep freezer for cheap and I plan on retrofitting it with a temperature controller so that I can keep temp exactly where I want it.. This yeast would make an interesting first test for Helga.....


----------



## WI_Wino

seth8530 said:


> Nice find Deezil, it sounds really promising considering I plan on doing a nice long cold soak prior to fermentation. Also, not sure if you know but I managed to snag a deep freezer for cheap and I plan on retrofitting it with a temperature controller so that I can keep temp exactly where I want it.. This yeast would make an interesting first test for Helga.....



I would test with a cheap beer kit first than fresh grapes that you are (probably) going to be paying premium for. Nice thing about ales is it usually takes 1-3 weeks before you bottle.


----------



## seth8530

So, juicegrape just posted their availability for grapes. I am afraid I will be forced to use frozen must for the pinot noir ( has skins with it) and frozen juice for the chard because of how expensive it will be to ship fresh grapes all the way from cali. However, I still have options. 

http://www.juicegrape.com/jg_sitespecific/docs/2013 Grape Product Offerings.pdf

From this list here, which region/grower do you think it most like to give me a very mineral intense pinot noir and a full bodied chard. I realize that much of this lies in the hands on the winemaker but of course the grapes do play in as well.


----------



## seth8530

Just ordered 12 gallons of Chard from the Lodi region. I should expect it in sometime towards the start of October. Pinot noir will be available around the end of October.


----------



## seth8530

wow, making grape wine it's expensive! I should have my pinotnoir off which I ordered 15 gallons of frozen must in by next Friday. my chardonnay s should be in the week after that of which I orderd 12 gallons of juice.


----------



## seth8530

So here is a question for those in the know. Cold-soaking is a process where in which one lets the must sit on the skins for a period of time before beggining fermentation in an attempt to bring out more flavors from the skins. What do yall think about cold soaking the Pinot? Is their any need to cold soak a frozen must? Would the natural thawing process take care of that?


----------



## JohnT

Seth, 

My experience is that cold soaking happens after you press your white wines. You chill the must down to prevent fermentation and allow all pulp and overly tannic substances to settle out. Once the juice clarifies, you then rack, warm up, and then pitch.

I never had a need to cold soak re wine. 

johnT.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

If the must is frozen, then you are cold soaked. Yes as you thaw you are cold soaked.


----------



## seth8530

JohnT said:


> Seth,
> 
> My experience is that cold soaking happens after you press your white wines. You chill the must down to prevent fermentation and allow all pulp and overly tannic substances to settle out. Once the juice clarifies, you then rack, warm up, and then pitch.
> 
> I never had a need to cold soak re wine.
> 
> johnT.



Thanks for the input, I might have to employ that the next time I press from a white grape.



ShawnDTurner said:


> If the must is frozen, then you are cold soaked. Yes as you thaw you are cold soaked.



Hmm, that was sort of what I was thinking. I have read about pinot makers giving their must a week long cold soak... Perhaps I could slowly unthaw this stuff in my freezer and leave it at around 40 degrees for a week and a half or something to get really good pre fermentation extraction since I will not be do a super hot ferment.


----------



## seth8530

Alright, so the goods should be coming in by this Friday! I am rather excited!


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Remember. Pinot makers are using fresh grapes. You are using grapes that have been frozen for weeks and months. So you are cold soaked enough let your grapes un thaw. May take a few days to come to the right temp to pitch yeast and then pitch.


----------



## seth8530

Thankfully I know that the grapes are not months old. Maybe a couple weeks at most which is good. So this means that the grapes were first crushed and then frozen. Depending on how long that took say a day at most. This gives me around 1 day of cold soak. Then the thawing process say a day and a half if I remove the insulation. 

This only gives me around 2.5 days of cold soak so from what I have heard that is a short soak compared to the typical 4-10 day long soak. What I am thinking about doing is gently (or aggressively... not sure yet) thawing the pinot noir and then putting it into my temperature controlled freezer at say 41 degrees to ward of infection for around a week. Making sure to stir it up routinely to keep the cap wet and insure a good soak.

So, what do you think? From what I understand not much cold soaking goodness is going on while both the grapes and juice are frozen compared to when they are a solid liquid mixture. 

I wonder if it is safe to assume if the grapes are already sulfited.... I do not have SO2 testing ability /: and I certainly do not want to over sulfite the grapes while I wait for them to soak.

BTW thanks for the input I am just trying to bounce some ideas around right now is all.


----------



## seth8530

So, good things are now here! Much earlier than the Friday start date that I expected. Right now I have all of my Pinot noir thawing as well as one of the chards. I am having to be a little bit clever to work around my limit temperature controlled fermentation space...

So here is what is going to go down. 

I am going to cold soak all of the pinot noir at 45 degrees F for a week. While that is happening I will have the room temperature Chard fermented as per the prior listed procedure. 

Then, once the the pinot noir has finished cold soaking I will take take the chard out of my roommates fridge and put that in the fermentation chamber with the pinot noir and ferment both the cold half of the pinot noir and the cold half of the chard at 60 F ( 59F is the lower limit of D47).


Simultaneously, I will have the warm half of the pinot noir ferment at room tempature. At this time I assume that the warm chard will have already fermented to near completion. So all in all I am going to have 4 different fermentation schedules to keep up with so I am going to have make out a spread sheet that way I can keep straight when to add what to each batch.


I will of course have to verify the TA given by Iron Oak Vineyards after the cold soak is complete but 5.85 g/l seems kind of low.. Do yall have any recommendations for acid level for a pinot noir?


----------



## Deezil

No idea on the acidity of the Pinot Noir myself..

Just wanted to chime in, and wish ya good luck monitoring 4 ferments at once..


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Ph Between 3.40 and 3.50. Remember pinot is a low Tannin grape. When you have low tannins you need to have acidity for balance and structure. I shoot for 3.4 for my Pinots and a ta .65 to .8. Cheers


----------



## seth8530

Deezil said:


> No idea on the acidity of the Pinot Noir myself..
> 
> Just wanted to chime in, and wish ya good luck monitoring 4 ferments at once..



Thanks for chiming in, this should be a good learning experience.. Spread sheet has been made.. Hopefully it will help



ShawnDTurner said:


> Ph Between 3.40 and 3.50. Remember pinot is a low Tannin grape. When you have low tannins you need to have acidity for balance and structure. I shoot for 3.4 for my Pinots and a ta .65 to .8. Cheers




Thanks for the advice shawn. Based on what you are saying I will try and bump acidity on the pinot up to .7 once cold maceration is complete.


So, wow.. that was a lot of work. I put volume markers on my 20 gal buckets in 3 L increments, cleaned them out really well and put 15 gallons of pinot noir must into one of the buckets in the freezer. 

I think that their is some wild fermentation going on in the pinot noir so I applied Kmeta and lowered the temperature down to 41 degrees... Lets see how much them yeasties like that...

I also have 6 gals of the chard sitting out getting warmed up and well mixed. I added some meta to him I will take a gravity reading of him in the morning and possibly take the TA as well if I have time. If the TA seems good I will go and inoculate it with D47.


----------



## seth8530

I am rather unimpressed with my chard juice. SG was 1.080 with TA sitting .475. I added 8 tsp with the hope to get the acid up to .7 something. I will re test it later today. I am going to have to bump up the sugar when I get back from class today and get this guy fermenting..

Also, the pinot noir is developing the brownish colour around the skins. I believe this is from the enzyme I am using breaking them down because when I bring skins and stuff up from the bottom I get the nice reddish colour back.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

This spring with my Chilean pinot I did a wild, ambient, natural fermentation. Whatever it is being called today. 

No problems with fermentations. The Must smelled fantastic. It is currently going through mlf. Should be done by the end of November. It is close according chrono paper test. 

I will only do wild fermentations with pinot. Cheers


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Remember to be gentle with pinot, u can't treat it like c a b sav. Gentle punch downs twice a day.


----------



## seth8530

I am having a hard time being gentle. I know I should be though. I want to make sure it stays well mixed as it goes through cold maceration to insure optimal extraction but I also need to not abuse the grapes... One thing that surprised me was that these frozen must buckets were full to the brim with grapes! I was expecting mostly juice and then some grapes on top.. BUt now, these pales are practically crushed grape pales... Much better word than frozen must.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

As long as they are wet you are good.


----------



## seth8530

Thanks, I will keep that in mind.. Hopefully this pinot will be epix.. BTW, now shooting for .65 acidity on the pinot noir after some research.


----------



## seth8530

Ok, re hydrated d-47 in go germ and pitched it into the chard.. Post acid addition acid reads around .625 grams per liter. I might adjust that post ferment but I am happy with that for now. I aimed to sweeten it up to 1.1 However, after addition and stirring I ended up at 1.096.. Perhaps it will creep up those last 4 points in a bit or not.. Either way I am not way too concerned.

Pinot noir seems to be happy chilling out at 41F previous fermentation signs have ceased which is good. I will continue stirring twice I day untill I consider the cold soak finished. Once that is done I will check the gravity and acid.. Adjust.. and then split it up into its two separate batches as evenly as I can.


----------



## sour_grapes

You should also do a port of some sort..... You know, any port in a storm!


----------



## Snafflebit

I want to make Pinot Noir so bad!

Russian River Pinot is wonderful stuff, those are good grapes.

Another perfect terroir for Pinot is Santa Lucia Highlands if you can find a place to sell the grapes. 

I have seen Pinot Noir musts brewing and it ain't that pretty red color you get from Cab Sauv. Extracting all the possible color is essential for a good Pinot, or so I have seen.

keep us updated!


----------



## seth8530

sour_grapes said:


> You should also do a port of some sort..... You know, any port in a storm!




Heh, port.. I actually have a black currant "port" aging right now.. been a while since I have tried it but I have vowed not to try it again until it hits the 2 year mark.. So that is around 5 months away I think. It would be really cool to make a "port" from frozen must though.



snafflekid said:


> I want to make Pinot Noir so bad!
> 
> Russian River Pinot is wonderful stuff, those are good grapes.
> 
> Another perfect terroir for Pinot is Santa Lucia Highlands if you can find a place to sell the grapes.
> 
> I have seen Pinot Noir musts brewing and it ain't that pretty red color you get from Cab Sauv. Extracting all the possible color is essential for a good Pinot, or so I have seen.
> 
> keep us updated!



You know I have never actually had a Russian River Pinot so I might have to try one next weekend. I hope I will be able to extract good colour; however, for me I would rather have a weak colour and better aroma.



BTW Thank you to all who have shown interest in this project. I have enjoyed all the input I have received.


----------



## ShawnDTurner

Seth .65 is a good number... You will not notice much from .70 with Pinot. At .65 it should settle your Ph around 3.40 - 3.45. Closer to 3.45. Cheers!


----------



## seth8530

Thanks for the advice. I just checked the brix on the pinot noir by skimming some juice out and then straining it and then taking a hydrometer reading.. It looks like we are looking at around 24 brix at around 64F. I will check the TA later once we are actually done with the cold soak. The grapes were rated for 23 brix and showed signs of fermentation so it would seem to me that the cold soak is working.

Also, I pitched D-47 re hydrated in goferm into the chard two days ago.. Still no signs of activity. To counter this I re hydrated another packet of yeast in go ferm and re pitched. Hopefully It will show some activity soon.


----------



## seth8530

So earlier today the chard showed some of the earliest signs of fermentation ( fermentation smell and very light fizz on stirring) but bubbles or anything else.. Checked it late tonight and it was bubbling.. So it looks like re pitching the yeast got the chard back on track! I will start the other chard by putting a volume of the fermenting chard into the non inoculated chard when the time comes.


----------



## jensmith

Oh, chard as on chardanay and not swiss chard!!! Time to get my head out of the the garden and back into the wine! It only took rereading the whole post to figure it out.


----------



## seth8530

Haha, my bad lol. Yes, chard is Chardonnay for me when i'm feeling lazy.

So me and a buddy managed to separate out the cold soaking pinot noir into two buckets with approximately equal volumes of skin and juice each ( not exact)... But close enough eh? Each container has around 34.5 liters in them and the SG is sitting at 1.114 on each guy ( hopefully sediment was not throwing it off way too bad.. we tried to correct by putting the must through a strainer a few times and then measuring at 64F)... But apparently the cold soak helped liberate a lot of sugar considering it started off at 23 brix according to the grower... 

So vitals
SG=1.114?
TA=.65 (measured by taking the must and adding a good volume of deionzed distilled water from the chem lab and then looking for the end point)
Yeast 3001
2 oz of med+ Hungarian oak chips per 34.5 liter fermenter. I will likely reduce this down to 2oz of oak for the whole batch once I go into secondary.
Temp for the cold is at 54F hot will be fermented at room temp.


Rehydrated the 3001 yeast in 20 grams go ferm and 400 grams water and then split that evenly between the two batches. I plan on adding fermid O in 5 additions at .5 grams/liter.. I came up with this regimen by shooting for 320 mg/L YAN dividing by the YAN contribution of fermaid O per .3 gram and then multipling that by .3.. .I then assumed that fermaid O YAN is 33% more efficient than DAP YAN thus I multiplied by addition by .66.. Hopefully this will work out for the best.


I had a really hard time keeping up with the nutrient scheduling on the room temp Chard, around 35 hours after noticing a slight fizzing and a gravity of around 1.090 it had already dropped down to around 1.020 ish. So, it was a rocket once it finally got started. I am hoping that the pinot noir proves more manageable.


----------



## seth8530

Looks like we are having the beginnings of activity on the pinot noir. I have decided that I do not care that my SG measurements are not truly accurate due to all the floaties in the tube. Thus I will only use the deltas in gravity for scheduling purposes. When all is said and done I will test the ABV with an ebuilometer. 

Racked the hot chard into a 6 gallon carboy, and ended up with 3 wine bottles of extra. One of the bottles will be used to start the cold batch, the other two will be reserved for topping off. 

Added, half a medium+ french oak wine stix and 1 spiral of american white oak medium toast to the 6 gallon carboy. Also added, 4.5 grams of Optiwhite. Gravity was .992. I should of added the optiwhite before fermentation ended but the chard was so hard to keep up with since it was moving so fast.


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## seth8530

Cold pinot is still holding around 1.112. I have made 2 additions to the Hot Pinot noir. One this morning at 1.096 with .5g/L fermaid O and then Just a few minutes ago at 1.074 at .5g/L again.


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## Snafflebit

seth8530 said:


> Looks like we are having the beginnings of activity on the pinot noir. I have decided that I do not care that my SG measurements are not truly accurate due to all the floaties in the tube. Thus I will only use the deltas in gravity for scheduling purposes. When all is said and done I will test the ABV with an ebuilometer.
> 
> Racked the hot chard into a 6 gallon carboy, and ended up with 3 wine bottles of extra. One of the bottles will be used to start the cold batch, the other two will be reserved for topping off.
> 
> Added, half a medium+ french oak wine stix and 1 spiral of american white oak medium toast to the 6 gallon carboy. Also added, 4.5 grams of Optiwhite. Gravity was .992. I should of added the optiwhite before fermentation ended but the chard was so hard to keep up with since it was moving so fast.



Floaties in the tube? Are you not straining the juice before it goes into the tube? My technique is to use a sieve and scoop up the must, letting the juice flow through into the test tube. I can't get an accurate hydrometer reading any other way. 

I have been meaning to ask where you ordered the Iron Oaks must? I have looked for some frozen buckets, but I have found nothing from Russian River.


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## seth8530

snafflekid said:


> Floaties in the tube? Are you not straining the juice before it goes into the tube? My technique is to use a sieve and scoop up the must, letting the juice flow through into the test tube. I can't get an accurate hydrometer reading any other way.
> 
> I have been meaning to ask where you ordered the Iron Oaks must? I have looked for some frozen buckets, but I have found nothing from Russian River.





Yeah, grape particulates and the such. I am running it through a seive but I do not think it is good enough.

I got mine from juicegrape.com ie the M&M grape company. I would not be surprised if they still have some.


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## seth8530

The Hot pinot noir once again proved too hard to keep up with. I ended up adding my last addition of goferm this morning at around 1.030. I also added in booster rouge at .3g/l. All is not bad though since, I atleast managed to keep a 1/3 then 2/3 sugar break addition plan. But, not I would of proffered more additions of lesser volume.

The cold pinot noir showed some signs of activity but the gravity does not seem to be moving much.


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## seth8530

Pressed the skins dry on my hot batch tonight. All in all clean up included it took about 3 hours using a bucket inside of a bucket press. I kept all the skins and I will be using them for a future mead. This should help minimize losses from not being able to extract all the juice from the skins from the press. 

The juice and skin mixture was 36 liters I managed to extract 19 liters of juice from that mixture. So all in all not way too bad of pressing efficiency considering my press is not exactly what I would call the pinnacle of engineering excellence. This morning the wine was at 1.004.. My bet is that it will go completely dry quite soon. 

The cold pinot noir is still floating around 1.090. However, he is slowly chugging on along....


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## seth8530

The cold pinot is now moving along well at 56F. I added .5g/l fermaid O at 1.074. Next addition is at 1.062


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## seth8530

The cold Pinot noir has been wonderful as far as scheduling goes. The cooler temperature insures that the nutrient scheduling has been really easy to keep up with. I added my last nutrient addition at 1.032 instead of at 1.027 as I had planned. I also added .3g/L Booster Rouge at the same time. I predict that I will be pressing this wine this weekend.


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## seth8530

Last night I racked the hot pinot noir since it had over an inch of thick sediment. The gravity had dropped down to .992 or slightly below. I then topped off with sanitized marbles and around 32-48 ounces of cold pinot must that was below 1.030. I also replaced the oak that had been in the pinot with .75 ounces of oak that had been used during the primary along with .75 ounces of fresh Hungarian to bring the oak load back up to 1.5 ounces after I had to make an oak sacrifice to the bath tub during cleaning.

The hot chard is clearing quite nicely and has maybe a cm of sediment on the bottom. I will feel comfortable doing sur lie with that when the time comes.


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## seth8530

I racked and topped off my cold fermented pinot noir with 6 liters of Robert Mondavi Pinot nior (2011) to bring the volume back up to 5 gallons. I feel like I have lost my basis for comparison between the two batches due to the very large top off I had to perform.. However, I always intended to blend the two batches in the end.


One thing I would like to note is that my Pinot noir is showing some very interesting chocolate notes early on. It is still very young and will need quite a bit of aging.. But I find that promising.

I set out the cold chard to finish unthawing before I ferment it.


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## ShawnDTurner

Did you add French oak chips in primary?


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## seth8530

nope, I did however use 3 oz of Hungarian oak cubes in each primary which I then reduced down to 1.5 oz in each 5 gallon secondary. I am using a mixture of American and French oak spirals and stix for the chard in secondary though.


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## seth8530

So, the chard that is to be fermented cold. I checked the gravity it sat up right around 1.082 so I added around 940 grams of sugar to hopefully bring the six gallon volume up to 1.096. The acid tested at .4g/L thus I hopefully added enough to sit me at .625 g/l. I also added 7 grams of opti white to the batch. 

To initiate fermentation I used some of the yeast cake from the previous chard. The must is not sitting in the chiller at 60F.


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## seth8530

Just checked the gravity of the chard this morning. It was sitting nice and pretty at 1.096-1.098... Hopefully we will be seeing some fermentation within a day or two.


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## seth8530

Added in 19 grams fermaid O at 1.055.. Chard is moving along nice and steady. Thus far I have manged to hit all my nutrient addition targets.


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## seth8530

Gravity was at 1.040 this night. I added in 18 more grams of fermaid O.


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## seth8530

Meant to add last addition at 1.025, however the gravity sneaked past me and is now at 1.014... Adding 19 grams fermaid O and 7 grams of optiwhite.


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## seth8530

Finally got all the wines into secondary once the pinot mead finished fermenting. We added 5 grams of opti mallo plus to each 6 gallon carboy and as well as the correct portion of MBR 31. 

Since I was quite cheerful about the end of what seems to be a promising wine season I decided to have a few pictures taken.


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## sour_grapes

Looking mighty good, Seth!


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## seth8530

Thanks! I cant wait to see how these turn out. The taste I snuck of the pinot noir seems UBER promising!


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## seth8530

So, just a brief little update. 

The cold fermented pinot noir smells great and in my opinion has this odd chocolaty dark fruit kind of smell going on with it. I have not tasted it yet, since it is still way too early to tell. 

The warm fermented Pinot Noir has this rather amazing smokey chocolate smell going on with it with some kind of fruitiness on it that I can not quite put my finger on. I think when the times comes blending these guys together will be quite fun. I can see bubbles and clearly smell the results of ML fermentation.

The warm fermented chard at first had this kind of odd smell to it, perhaps a slight rubbery kind of smell to it, but I have since decided it is something else. I was kind of worried it was the start of HS2 formation from bottonage and I considered racking off the lees , but I have since decided not to do that. I will take a wait and see approach for now.

The cool fermented chard smells quite good actually, perhaps because I like the smell of ML so much. It is fruiter than the other and I could detect no off smells. Def has smells rather creamy.


I am still undergoing bottonage on all the wines, I stir the lees up by swirling the carboys around once a week. I will keep doing this until I start getting some off definite off smells in the chard.

On a side note, I purchased a pump and some redulees, that should help make working with my future grape wine fermentations much easier...


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## Pumpkinman

Seth,
I'm very happy that your season is going as planned! I had a bottle of Sangiovese left over from racking, although I could have done the smart thing and saved it for topping off, nope....I drank it! If it is any indication of what this wine will become, I am happy as a pig in mud!


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## seth8530

Oh yeah! No regrets over here in this camp! I hope I have enough money left over so that I can make some more wine next year! How old is your Sangiovese right now?

BTW, does anyone here know about bottonage and HS2 formation, ie some things that are clear indicators that I should take it off the lees? I have never done this before so I am not quite sure if it smells young or if it is the beginning of HS2.


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## Pumpkinman

Seth, The sangiovese is only three months old, it has a long way to go, but I couldn't pass up the chance to try it out, and I wasn't disappointed! My schedule is tentatively:
3 more months clearing, I'll rack possibly once more then into the barrels it goes for at least 6 months, at that point I plan on racking back to carboys for 4 to 6 months, making any adjustments necessary, at this point it should more like a Chianti. I plan on taking some and blending some of my Cabernet (Yakima Valley), this is another outstanding wine that is still very young, and Merlot that a buddy made last year, to make a Super Tuscan.


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## seth8530

Hmm sounds very interesting. Will your blended wines give you enough ABV for a Super Tuscan? If I recall correctly Super Tuscan is a slightly sweet strongish Italian red correct? How many gallons do you have going?


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## Snafflebit

It's great to read your update. Life and work have delayed me in buying a bucket of Pinot. I assume there is still some frozen around if I get free time.


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## seth8530

Thanks, I am just glad these guys are moving along as well as they are. I am sure you can still get some frozen pinot noir juice and maybe if you are lucky some frozen must too.


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## Pumpkinman

You can get buckets of frozen Pinot grapes (fresh, crushed and frozen) from M&M, a buddy got a few buckets and really likes it!
Seth, I have 11 gallons of Sangiovese. 
The Sangiovese was very sweet, and still has a nice pronounced fruit forward taste. 
There are a few things that I'll do from now on:
I'll purchase the absolute best grapes that I can afford, what a difference it makes, I'm a firm believer in selecting a vineyard that has a proven track record, and I'm a believer in terroir, I saw first hand the differences between grapes from two different vineyards, amazing how much the fruit can be affected.
If making Juice buckets, I'll make sure that I ferment on at least 9-10 lbs of fresh crushed grapes (the ultimate fresh grape skin pack), you can then add a product such as Opti-red (obviously for reds) to achieve more intense color and better tannin integration, fuller bodied, more color stable, smooth palate wines. You can bring your wine from juice buckets up a notch or 2!


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## seth8530

Ahh, so that should work out quite well. I understand what you are saying about grape quality mattering. The chard juice I got was vastly inferior to my Pinot must, thus, I have been forced to take a very winemaker intensive strategy with the chard (ie surlie, oak, and MLF) to try and make something out of it.

I almost feel that the pinot noir could of almost made itself if I would of let it.


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## Pumpkinman

Seth, I have read about Battonage and Chardonnay, you should end up with a nice smooth Chard!


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## sour_grapes

seth8530 said:


> Hmm sounds very interesting. Will your blended wines give you enough ABV for a Super Tuscan? If I recall correctly Super Tuscan is a slightly sweet strongish Italian red correct? How many gallons do you have going?



Tom didn't address this, so let me weigh in. A Super Tuscan can be whatever you want it to be (although at least 85% of the grapes must come from Tuscany to qualify for the IGT). As best as I know, there is no tendency for them to be slightly sweet. 

My impression is that what has come to be implied by Super Tuscan is a blend of Italian grapes (principally Sangiovese) and big red grapes that are NOT traditionally Italian (typically Bordeaux grapes, Merlot & Cab. Sauv.). Sometimes there is no Sangiovese at all.


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## seth8530

Pumpkinman said:


> Seth, I have read about Battonage and Chardonnay, you should end up with a nice smooth Chard!



I sure hope so!



sour_grapes said:


> Tom didn't address this, so let me weigh in. A Super Tuscan can be whatever you want it to be (although at least 85% of the grapes must come from Tuscany to qualify for the IGT). As best as I know, there is no tendency for them to be slightly sweet.
> 
> My impression is that what has come to be implied by Super Tuscan is a blend of Italian grapes (principally Sangiovese) and big red grapes that are NOT traditionally Italian (typically Bordeaux grapes, Merlot & Cab. Sauv.). Sometimes there is no Sangiovese at all.



Ahh thanks for the clarification, I really need to work on my stylistic knowledge. I have tried a super Tuscan before and I found that I really liked it. But from what you have mentioned it seems possible for the style to vary widely.


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## Pumpkinman

Seth,
Paul is correct, in the 1970s, some Tuscan producers came to believe that the legal rules governing the production of Chianti were too restrictive, or these vintners wanted to make wine outside of the allowed Chianti zone. They coined the term “super Tuscan” to distinguish their wines.
here is a link to a real nice Super Tuscan write up: http://www.winemag.com/June-2013/The-Soul-of-the-Super-Tuscan/


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## Deezil

seth8530 said:


> Ahh thanks for the clarification, I really need to work on my stylistic knowledge. I have tried a super Tuscan before and I found that I really liked it. But from what you have mentioned *it seems possible for the style to vary widely*.



This seems to be true with most of the blends.. Meritage / Bourdeaux come to mind as well.. They all have general guidelines, but the actual percentages vary so much that calling them all the same things, to me, seems kind of misleading.

Not that I can think of a better way to do it, but...
It's always bugged me lol


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## seth8530

Ahh, thanks for the information guys! Learn something new every other day it seems.


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## Pumpkinman

That's what makes this so much fun!


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## seth8530

Yep yep! 

Well good news, or interesting news I guess.. My pump came in the mail today and she is quite purty.. I cant wait to find a use for her. My brother thinks I was silly for getting it..... But I do not think he has ever tried to rack past grape seeds from a primary fermentation before.... That and I can now rack directly out of my 15 gallon (when squeezed into the temperature controlled deepfreezer) fermentation bucket right into a carboy..

Also, in other news, I currently have my ML chromography paper sitting in the solution, so hopefully by the morning I will have pictures up of the results for the 6 wines I have fermenting. I found the test paper quite pain free since the sample size needed was so small and I was able to test all 6 carboys at once.


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## Deezil

What kind of pump did you score?


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## seth8530

Deezil said:


> What kind of pump did you score?



This guy right here

http://morewinemaking.com/products/selfpriming-diaphragm-pump.html


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## seth8530

Alright, its a little bit later than morning time, but I finaly have the picture that I promised I would have.


The left three on the Malic, Lactic, and Tartaric acid solutions provided with the paper. 

From there we have

Chard Warm
Chard Cold
Pinot Noir Warm
Pinot Noir Cold
Pinot mead 1
Pinot mead 2

The two pinot meads were fermented together but seperated into carboys.. But I figured it would not hurt to perform seperate test on them.

So from the looks of it, it seems like the pinot based wines have undergone MLF all the way to completion since the test shows no lactic but some malic.

However, the chards seem to show both malic and lactic. Does this imply that ML is or was in progress. Is it safe to assume the wine does not start off with any lactic acid and that when MLF is done all malic?


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## Pumpkinman

Seth,
The Chards still need some time, maybe raise the temp just a bit to speed it up, or leave it as is for another two weeks. 
From everything that I've read, Grapes contain very little lactic acid, obviously this amount is increased during the MLF process.


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## seth8530

Yeah that sounds about right to me. I am wanting to get the ML done so that I can get some sulfites into these guys. I will consider giving them some heat.


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## Pumpkinman

Seth, that is the exact reason I added the heat mats to my carboys, I just didn't feel comfortable waiting much long to stabilize the wine. I really need to pick up a few of those temperature strips that you stick to carboys to monitor the temp a little better.


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## seth8530

Yeah, I feel ya there. If my freezer chamber was open ( currently has 12 gallons of lager in it) I would put the chards in the freezer, stick the probe on the wine and hook the controller up to a lightbulb that I would run in the freezer... and Viola! Freeze chamber is now a heat chamber.. However, I might have to settle for heat mats


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## Pumpkinman

Seth,
I didn't know that you brewed, what kind of lager are you brewing?


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## seth8530

Brewing is my brother's domain, I do the wine. But I have been through more than a few too many brew days to not know how to brew myself. It started out as a Helles, but after review the guidelines it seems like it might be closer in style to a Vienna lager. 

We are slightly worried about not being able to perform a really good diacetyl rest since we were on vacation while it was fermenting and by the time we came back it had already reached its terminal gravity.. Either way we let it sit warm for a few days anyways in the hope that something would happen. It does not taste buttery or anything so hopefully it will behave well while it lagers and not show serious signs of diacetyl after it lagers.


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## seth8530

Just added 3 grams of redulees to each of the chards, one of them smelt slightly stinky, so I went ahead and added some in as a preventative measure. I plan on racking them on Friday and continue sur lee with whatever lees get left to me.


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## seth8530

So apparently the reduless really helped out the slightly stinky hot fermented chard! The slightly stinky scent went away. I decided to remove the oak the cold chard since it was getting just about perfect. Both have been racked and are both rather fruity. I plan on continuing sur lie to bring this down a few notches. All in all it seems promising.

Sulfite levels were around 50 ppm on the hot fermented chard, the cool chard was around 35 ppm. This might explain why ML has not yet completed yet. However, since the sulfites were added prior to ML pitching I have hopes that it will finish it up. I whipped some air into both chard in the hope of binding some of those sulfites.


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## seth8530

Racked the Pinot noir off the oak since the oak started a prominent flavour, which is not quite what I am after. The hot fermented pinot noir is amazingly tanic. Perhaps it got more seeds than the cold fermented one did. The colour is deeper on the hot one. The chocolate notes seem to be fading back a bit. The over all taste is amazingly not bad for how young it is. But never fear! This young gall will be of proper age before she gets broken in.


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## ShawnDTurner

Seth. Are you getting any fruit notes? Honestly pinot noir is not that much interesting until it hits year 4 or 5. ,to me. . The tannin is a good thing. That mean the wine will age. How is the acidity? What are your numbers? How does it tastes?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Wine Making mobile app


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## seth8530

I am definitely getting fruit notes. Especially in the one that was fermented cold. Acidity taste about right to me;however, I might adjust it at the very end once it has finished bulk aging after a year or so. 

The wine started out at 22 brix, but I believe it crept up a bit higher during the cold soak.Acid was 5.85 g/l. The final gravity was around .992. So the ABV is somewhere around 13-14 percent. I will need to use an ebuilometer to be sure. However, I am not worried either way since alcohol is not really strong on the flavour profile.

The overall flavour profile is this kind of fruity chocolaty smokey thing. The cold one is fruiter while the hot one is more tanic and chocolate forward. I wish I could give you a better flavour description but I did not want to sample too much since I did not want to waste wine during racking. The taste is certinaly clean so I know nothing is wrong with it. I feel like it is going somewhere good, but time will have to tell just what it will do.


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## ShawnDTurner

The chocolate is from the oak. From your comment of the taste being clean, seems to indicate acidity, which has a palate cleasnsing effect. I like acid driven pinots more french burgundies. Thanks for the response. Cheers


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## seth8530

Yep NP, However, I must digress. The chocolate existed well before I added the oak. I am fairly certain it came from the grapes. Yet, I do agree that the oak does help the chocolate out to a rather large degree.


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## ShawnDTurner

Where did you get these grapes from?

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## seth8530

I got them from M&M grape, the pinot noir grapes came from Iron Oaks Vineyards. From what I understand they are from Mendocino along the Russian Riiver.

Not sure if that means anything to you or not.


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## ShawnDTurner

Oh yea Sonoma valley. Some of the worlds best pinots and cabs. My sister in law travel there ever year to do winery tours for a week. 

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## seth8530

I have to say, that I might be a bit jealous of your sister in law.


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## seth8530

I used Dry wine yeast 3001 due to its cold temperature tolerance.

"Isolated, studied and selected from the prestigious Côte de Nuits terroir in Burgundy during a three-year research project by Laboratory Burgundia Oenologie in Beaune, France. The goal of this selection program was to find a dominant natural yeast strain from a traditional “cold soak” that would elaborate intense, complex and balanced Pinot Noir varietal character. The 3001 strain stood out from other strains. Wines made with it were noted for fruit and varietal characters that were both elegant and complex. This yeast has moderate nitrogen demands but will benefit from proper nutrition and aeration, these factors becoming increasingly important as your potential alcohol content rises above 13%. This strain is tolerant to standard SO2 additions and low temperatures (down to 12°C/54°F) for a steady and reliable alcoholic fermentation following cold soak. The 3001 yeast is specifically for high quality cold soak Pinot Noir destined for aging."

It seems to have worked out quite well so far.


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## seth8530

Added 2 grams of uvatan per each of the 6 gallon carboys of chard. I hope that this will give it a little bit of structure along with the MLF and oak.


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## seth8530

Just popped open a celebratory bottle of 2011 Paul Hobbs Piont Noir from the Russian River Valley.

I decided to get it because it came from the same area of Cali that my grapes came from and all I can say is wow.. This is what wine should taste like.

The armoma is faintly oak with a great vanilla darkfruit dry chocolate smell to it with some tart cherry to it. I would describe the oak as the canvas and the other aromas as the paint.

Cherry fruit up front, which fades to MLF and oaky cream which is like a vehicle that transport you to oaky dark berry medium vanilla finish. The mouth feel is soft and silky but not thick nor thin. The finish is accompanied by a slight tanic dryness but certainly not over powering.

I would be VERY pleased if my wine turns out like this one.


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## seth8530

I managed to take acid readings. One of my chards came in at TA .825 ->1.05 % (measurement uncertainty but definitely still high) with a PH of around 3.2 using wine making PH paper that goes from 2.8 to 4.2 in color increments SO2 16mg/L
The other Chard came in at TA around .87% PH near 3.2 (hard to tell) and SO2 at 15 mg/L.

I think I will go ahead and get these guys cold crashing to drop the acid down a few notches. I am also doing one last chromotography on these guys to ensure MLF is done before I add anymore SO2 or decide to keep these guys in the freezer for a long time.


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## seth8530

So a couple days ago we racked 12 gallons of Chardonnay, 10 gallons of Pinot Noir and 12 gallons of our Pinot Rose. Tasting notes were made comparing both the cold and warm fermentation techniques. Also, a decision was made in my internal struggle over whether not to do warm or cold ferments.


*Chardonnay*


Lets start off with the Chardonnay. A few weeks ago I performed another chromography test and ML seemed incomplete still so I think I have a stalled out MLF. I then tested the acid and saw that the TA was around .9 and the PH was around 3.3 ( best I could see with a cheap PH strip). Thus, I believe the reason why it stalled out was the acid being too harsh. To counter this I set the chardonnay in the freezer at 27 degrees for a few weeks and let some acid crystals drop out. On racking and tasting day I added 3 tsp of Potassium Carbonate to each of the 6 gallons Chardonnay carboys ( would have added more if I had more) to try and lower the TA by hopefully .1 points and possibly raise the PH up some more. When I get back from the summer I will recheck the PH and TA again to see how it is doing. I am hoping ML will kick back up.

*Cold*

*Aroma*
Fruity
Slight oaky backbone
Slight creaminess

*Taste*
Fruity
Oaky
Very acidic
Not very creamy
Not too tanic
not a very full mouthfeel

*Warm*

*Aroma*
Creamy
Roast coffee
Possible very slight sulfer (not much to worry about could just be wood)
Taste
Oaky
Smokey
Very acidic
Creamy after taste
Kind of interesting slightly roastyness


*Pinot Rose*


Also including an update of my Pinot Rose which was made by taking the used pinot noir skins from the fermentations and adding honey instead of water to make a second running. The Pinot Rose was cold fermented to express the fruity aroma of the grapes and floral character of the honey.

Even though it is off balance right now I still have a lot of hope for it. It seems to me the difference between making good wine and great wine is mostly in the fine tuning you do at the end.





*Aroma*
Smokey
Not Very Floral
Clear honey scent but not really a floral one. Think sort of a fresh hot honey smell. This is not an extremely strong scent but it is there.
Unsweet perfume ( GF says it reminds her of odile)

*Taste*
Fruity
Tanic
Slightly too acidic for the flavour profile that I am after but I will give it more time before I go messing around with it. Possible solutions include the addition of a base or possibly making the rose slightly sweet.
Candy Like. Most likely a result of the acid being out of place combined with the honey flavours and fruity stuff from the grape skins.

*Pinot Noir*


This is perhaps the wine I look forward to the most. A battle of cold vs hot fermentation. After 7 months of waiting and aging I think I have finally figured out which one I like...... BOTH. After tasting both of the pinot noirs separately and taking notes on them we blended the cold and warm together in a tasting glass and we liked what happened. After these guys age for another year we intend on blending them prior to bottling to produce a hopefully very complex wine.

The colour of the cold fermented wine was a very nice ruby colour which was lighter than most of the pinot noirs I have seen. However, the warm fermented one was a nice garnet colour. The blended result also had a nice garnet colour.


*Cold*

*Aroma*
Fresh dark berry
Oaky
Less smokey than hot counterpart

*Taste*
Creamy
Berry forward
Low mouthfeel
Not very complex

*Warm*

*Aroma*
Smokey
Light dark berry (dried berry)
Oaky

*Taste*
Tannic
Woody
Smokey
Not fruit forward
Not really creamy

*Blended
*

*Aroma*
Fresh Dark Fruit
Oaky
Smokey

*
Taste*
Fruity
Oaky
Creamy
Smokey
Nice mouthfeel and appropriate tannins



So all in all, in the future I will do side by side warm and cold ferments with the intention of blending them together to create a more complex wine. It seems to me that the cold fermentation can create very nice fruity characteristics and preserve the character of the grapes that you ferment. While on the other hand, doing warm fermenations does a great job of extracting tannins which are needed to have a structured wine and a good mouth feel. 

From the blending test we did we found that the blended result does not really take away from either wine but it seems to layer the flavours together to create a wine that is more complex than the original wines.


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## seth8530

Well, I have finally gotten back. I am waiting to get some better testing equipment before I mess with them way too much. But, just a small update. Everything is smelling good and looking healthy.

I had a small moment of panic when I saw this weird floaty thing on top of my chard. It smelled fine, but it was disturbing. Upon further investigation ( after spooning the substance out) I realized it was some kind of gritty percipiate. I believe it was either acid that came out of suspension and floated to the top, or perhaps more likely, excess bicarbonate that decided to float to the top.

Fall harvest is coming up, so I need to get my plans and equipment all back in order for this Fall.


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## JohnT

I Hear you Seth, 

I have only a few weekends left (before crush) and I have not done a thing yet.


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## seth8530

Yup yup, I just went from being hourly to salary, so I am not sure how long it will be before I get paid, ( maybe a month or two) so I am kind of hesitant to spend a lot of money until I know I have enough $$ to last until payroll kicks in. I hope, that that gets figured out PRIOR to harvest.. But if not, I guess better safe than sorry.

I think if it comes to it I will get a sc300 before I do a fall harvest just because it is such a versatile tool.


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## Boatboy24

I'm getting anxious here - my supplier still doesn't have prices up. They did send an email two weeks ago saying they'd be coming soon, but as I understand, certain areas will be harvesting VERY soon. Either way, my yeast, nutrients, MLB, etc arrived on Friday so I'm prepared. That is, unless I change my mind. 

Glad the wines survived your absence, Seth. Were you able to see any of Oregon's wine country?


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## seth8530

I understand being anxious. I might go ahead and load up on nutrient and additives in case I end up needing to get the grapes shipped in on a moments notice.

I am glad too... Oregon and Washington's wine country is different. I am used to California wines, so I was almost taken aback when the cab savs from Columbia valley were actually VERY fruity. Another thing that kind of surprised me was that a lot of the pinot noirs I tried from Willamette valley had a very green peppery kind of thing going on with them. This did not exist with all of them, but it was a pretty common trend.

I actually got to go on a wine tour, and the one thing saw was that price does not equal quality. We started out at this rather expensive winery whose winemaker is supposedly from Burgundy, but to be honest, none of them were worth the price... But we ended the day at this family operated establishment that decided to get into wine making maybe 6 or 7 years ago or something after having dabbled in many other things... And wow, their wines are the best. My favorite was thier claret.

If their is interest, I might go through the wines i brought back from Oregon and give my tasting notes on them. 

One of the things I am still not quite sure on is the whole cold year vs hot year thing. I can taste for myself that cold years are fruitier than hot years, but hot years can have a bit more substance to them than the cold years sometimes... But, I am still not convinced if that is a result of the growing conditions or how much it has to do with the actual fermentation temperature resulting from the outdoor temperature.


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## sour_grapes

Hmmmm, you did a winery tour, and you liked the winery that you visited last the best, huh? Hmmmmm.....


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## seth8530

Lol, you might be on to something.... Or perhaps not... The only way to know for sure would be to drink some wine... Life is hard.


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## ibglowin

seth8530 said:


> If their is interest, I might go through the wines i brought back from Oregon and give my tasting notes on them.




Being an ambassador of sorts for the WA/OR wine country I would love to know where you stopped and what you liked and didn't like so much. 

We did 10 days last Summer in Seattle (Woodinville), Walla Walla, and McMinville, OR. We brought back 3 cases of wine. Guess you could say we liked what we tasted!


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## seth8530

Hmm, I could try and reconstruct where we went. I will likely open one of the bottles tonight and write my thoughts on it up in a separate thread.


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## ibglowin

That's what the "what's in your glass tonight" thread is all about!


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## seth8530

So, I played around with my new SC-300 and the SC-50 MLF attachment. I gimped the procedure up a bit at the end, so I will not be able to provide exact numbers in g/l of malic acid for all the wines. But it appears that MLF is complete on all the wines except one of the Chardonnays. When, I get a chance I will either retest or deduce which one it is by testing ph, ta and so2 to weed out which one would be inhibitive to MLB. Afterwords, I will adjust them with a base and warm the carboy to encourage MLF to finish. 

Having a tool like the vinmetrica is really quite nice. I am still waiting for buyers regret, but it is taking its time coming.


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## seth8530

So, just finaly got to checking the vitals on these guys.

Hot Pinot Noir PH=3.8 TA= 4.8 g/l
Cold Pinot Noir PH= 3.84 TA=3.8 g/l
Hot Chard PH= 3.29 TA 6.9 g/l
Cold Chard PH= 3.31 TA 5.6 g/l
Pinot Rose ( mead 2nd run) PH= 3.3 TA= 5.6 g/l

Both the chards are above the minimum PH for MBR 31 (3.1) The cold chard and warm chard has an ABV of around 13.6% I think I will end up blending the chards and pinot noirs together 50 50 so, I think that might be enough to get it moving back along. Plus, in previous test, I really liked the blended result.

The readings were taken with an SC-300. I did not have DI water so I used tap water. So, if the TA readings are a bit wonky that might be why.. But, the PH readings should be good regardless.


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## ShawnDTurner

Wow. How come you did not adjust before starting fermentation?


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## oregondabbler

Seth, I don't understand what your point is about pH and the MLB. The spec sheet for MBR-31 reads "pH>3.1", which your chard seems to fit nicely.

I've been reading your thread with a lot of interest. The experiment comparing warm and cool fermentation temperatures is really good. So, thanks for putting the effort into writing down your results and getting them out there.


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## seth8530

ShawnDTurner said:


> Wow. How come you did not adjust before starting fermentation?



Eh, for which wines? I did not have good PH readings prior to ferment due to equipment reasons. But, I did try adjust the TA on the Chards.



oregondabbler said:


> Seth, I don't understand what your point is about pH and the MLB. The spec sheet for MBR-31 reads "pH>3.1", which your chard seems to fit nicely.
> 
> I've been reading your thread with a lot of interest. The experiment comparing warm and cool fermentation temperatures is really good. So, thanks for putting the effort into writing down your results and getting them out there.



Correct, but if the ABV hit a little bit too high, or if the sulfites are a bit over what that MLB strain can take, it could have caused it to stall out. However, I tested earlier and one of the chards did not finish MLF, not sure which off the top of my head, but I think it is the cold fermented one. However, I am not 100% on that. Why it did not complete, I am not 100% on. But, I think blending them might help level things out a bit.


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## seth8530

I went ahead and added VP=41 MLB to the chardonnays. The dose was enough for 66 gallons, and the wine is well within the tollerence of the strain.. So, I am optimistic that this should help finish of MLF in these guys.


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## seth8530

Chardonnay is still quite cloudy after all this time. I am going to treat with around 15-16 grams per each 5-6 gallon carboy. Hopefully this will help it clear on out.


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## seth8530

So the pinot noirs were at 5 pm and near 0 ppm so2 respectivly. I added 50 ppm so2 to each of them since I did not feel like checking the pH. However, I figured this should be good enough to keep them safe and stable until I get to checking them again.

The chardonnays were at 12 and 7 ppm so2 each and kinda bubbely, I wonder if I got some kind of prolonged MLF going on... Well, I guess not for much longer since I added 50 ppm so2 to this guy as well. I also added the betonite like discussed earlier.


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## seth8530

The wines are all coming up on 20 months old.... I need to work up the nerve (and patience) to blend and bottle these guys up... 10 cases should do the trick.


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## seth8530

It is done.... 8 hours of time and 20 gallons of wine later, the chardonnay got blended 50/50 with the cold and warm fermented portions, and the pinot noir got blended 50/50 with the cold and warm portions.. All has been bottled. Detailed tasting notes and photos with a comparison against a commercial example will follow.

Pinot Noir

OG 1.098 (23 brix I decided to go with the labeled value since I did not have a refractometer)

FG .994

ABV 13.6%

pH 3.8 ( a little high)

TA=?


Chardonnay 

OG 1.096

FG .992

ABV = 13.6%

pH 3.1

TA=?


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