# New barrels



## Rocky (Jun 17, 2011)

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered two 23 liter Hungarian oak barrels from Vadai. I plan to used them for short terms aging. I have not had a new barrel for many years, so I have some questions that I am sure can be answered here.


*Conditioning.* The Vadai site has a conditioning regimen which takes one thru a conditioning process using water. Is there any reason not to follow what is on their site?


*Aging/Oaking wines. *In an earlier post (I believe back in April or so) a schedule was posted on how long to let the first, second, third, etc. batch in the barrel. I think it was 2 weeks, 4 weeks, 8 weeks, etc. Is there general agreement with this schedule?


Barrels I have used in the past were former whiskey barrels from the Schenley Distillery in PA. I bought a couple of oak barrels in Rochester when I was there but I don't remember the conditioning or the aging schedule. (I do remember having a 20 gallon Canadian _chestnut_ barrel but I was not pleased with the taste it imparted.)


So, for those of you who have recently purchased new barrels, would you please share your experiences. BTW, I did order the stands and the rubber bungs. Thank you.


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## ibglowin (Jun 17, 2011)

Hey Rocky!

Great choice on barrels. I have (2) 23L myself now. Follow the conditioning regimen to the letter. I had no problems with my first, but my 2nd took almost a week to seal up 100%. I almost sent it back but was determined to stick it out. It was such a perfect piece of work I just couldn't give up on it. Don't add any wine until you have zero drops of water leaking out. Remember wine is "thinner" than water, so if you are seeing any drips of water you will see more drips with wine. I ended up buying some canning wax on the 2nd barrel to finally get it to quit leaking,

I have found that the breakin schedule is slightly on the conservative side. On my first barrel I followed the 2 week, 4 week, 8 week schedule. The wines tasted fine when I pulled them but the oak faded afer a couple of months back in the carboy. On the 2nd barrel I am doubling the time to 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 16 weeks since I have some data to suggest the Oak will fade back rather quickly. 

This is entirely different than oaking with beans or cubes which seem to intensify for a year or so before settling back down.


Good choice on the stands and the silicon bungs. 

I know you will be very pleased with the barrels!


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2011)

Mike, so you take the wine from the barrel back to a carboy. Do you think the results would have been any different if you had gone from the barrel to the bottle? That is, do you think the oak would have faded in the bottle at the same rate as it did in the carboy? This is the path that I was planning. I did not consider taking it back to a carboy.


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## ibglowin (Jun 17, 2011)

No diference. My carboys are stoppered tight for long term bulk aging.


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## ibglowin (Jun 17, 2011)

I have also returned my fresh grape Cab Sauv and Merlot back to the barrel for a second and much longer run than the first. 

The only thing you need to keep an eye on is the amount of free SO2.

The barrel will deplete about 20ppm in 3 mo time!


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up on the SO2, Mike. I might not have rechecked that.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2011)

One other question, Mike. Do you have spigots in any of your barrels? I did not buy any but I have drilled barrels and installed a spigot in the past. I am not planning to do this at this point because I do not intend to keep the wine in the barrel for an appreciable lenght of time.


When we were making whiskey barrels full of wine, we had spigots on the barrels and a special bung that was drilled and had a tapered dowel inserted. The dowel was removed to equalize the pressure when wine was output through the spigot. Of course, we had a very constant wine cellar temperature of about 55 degrees. F.


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## Waldo (Jun 18, 2011)

Where are the pictures Rocky


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2011)

Two problems, Waldo. I don't have the barrels yet and secondly, I still can't figure out how to re-size the pix so I can post them. I did it once with my dogs but for the life of me, I can'tremember how I did it. I probably pushed random buttons until it worked and the promptly forgot the sequence. I will try to figure it out before the barrels get here.


I wish it were rocket science. I would have a better chance of figuring it out.


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## ASAI (Jun 18, 2011)

One trick I have used to resize pics is to let windows do it. I don't rememer the exact procedure, can look it up and try and error and then post if needed. As best I recall open the picture in explorer, right click, select send as email. Email to my self. Some where in that process as I recall it gives a option of selecting sizes. I then save the returned pic in a email folder to send as needed.


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## ibglowin (Jun 18, 2011)

No spigots. I just use the auto siphon. Carboy is up high, barrel is on the floor. Rack as usual. It will be pretty heavy when full to lift back up but nothing I have not been able to achieve by myself.


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## lieu (Jun 18, 2011)

Hey Rocky,
If you go to the how to tutorials and look at the thread that Masta has on re-sizing pic there is a link to a re-sizer. I did it and it worked fine. There is now an icon on my desk top. I also have a folder on my desk top with pics in it and all I have to do is drag the folder onto the icon for the resizer and presto its done. I think it asks you what size you want the pics. If you put 640x480 you should be just fine. (at least I was) 
Believe me if I was able to do it you can.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2011)

Lieu, This is only a test.








I am using this artwork for my label for my Concord Wine. This is Concord Bridge. 


"By the rude bridge that arched the flood, 
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled, 
Here once the embattled farmers stood, 
And fired the shot heard 'round the World."


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## lieu (Jun 19, 2011)

There you go Rocky.


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## Goodfella (Jun 19, 2011)

Good job Rocky


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## Waldo (Jun 19, 2011)

Rocky said:


> Lieu, This is only a test.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2011)

It would seemit is more than a coincidence that the original quote that I had up there is from Ralph WALDO Emerson! Are you related? Good job, Waldo.


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## Rocky (Jun 28, 2011)

My new barrels arrived today and I am studying my next moves. The procedure for "leak proofing" them is straight-forward, but I have a question on the storage of the barrels when not in use. (I realize that for many of you, they are never "in storage" and are always full of wine.)


In past years when I had barrels and were not using them, we stored them dry after thoroughly cleaning and sanitizing them. When we needed them the next year, we rinsed them out, filled them with hot water and left them until they showed no signs of leaking. 


The directions that I got from Sandor have three alternatives for storage, all of which required twice monthly to monthly attention. Being somewhat lazy (actually, I am pacing myself) I was looking for an easier way. What do you Guys and Gals do? Thanks.


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## robie (Jun 28, 2011)

Rocky,Congrats on the new barrels. I am getting ready to order a 23l Vidai, myself.
A couple of months ago Winemaker magazine had an article about Tim V. using a new barrel. He*fermented* two chardonnay kits in his new barrel before he put in any reds for oaking/aging.
Tim V. said the yeast from the fermentation imparted some special, longlastingcharacteristics to the barrel.
Seems like a good way to break in a new barrel, but I don't know for sure. I wonder how that would affect the standard procedures of 2 week, 4 weeks, ..etc?


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## ibglowin (Jun 28, 2011)

I think its 10X easier to just keep them full thats a no brainer.....

The maintenance for an empty barrel is more work than keeping it full. I don't think you will have any trouble keeping them full Rocky!





My real world experience is the smaller the barrel the harder it can be to seal properly. Do not put wine in before you have zero drops on an overnight fill with water. Follow the breakin instructions. If you are leaking a drop or two of H2O it will be worse with wine which as we all know is thinner than H2O.

Barrel oaking is different than bean oaking. Barrel oaking seems to fall back after a few months whereas bean oaking does not. Every batch that I have put into my first barrel has had to go back into to it down the road as it lost its oak level.

If you run a couple of whites though it first your reds will be able to stay in longer for sure. On my first 23L barrel I did the 2 week, 4 week, 8 week schedule but on my second barrel I am doing a 4 week, 8 week, 16 week schedule.

Line up 2-3 carboys relax and just rotate them in. You can always rotate one back in as well as long as you keep up the SO2 levels.

Enjoy, you are going to love it. I am going to order a 40L for fresh grapes this Fall. I should be able to rotate the wines in and out to keep it full all year until the next crush comes.







Rocky said:


> The directions that I got from Sandor have three alternatives for storage, all of which required twice monthly to monthly attention. Being somewhat lazy (actually, I am pacing myself) I was looking for an easier way. What do you Guys and Gals do? Thanks.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2011)

A question on new barrel conditioning (leak proofing). If one used very hot _tap water_ instead of_ boiling water_, would that work? I have the barrels in the basement and no means to boil water. My tap water is about 140-150 degrees. Is that good enough? I could buy an electric hot plate and boil water in the basement, if necessary. I would like to hear from the forum on this. When we prep-ed barrels long ago, we just used water right out of the tap. I am not even sure if it was hot or cold.


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## ibglowin (Jun 29, 2011)

I have an Insinkerator in the kitchen and used that and still had some issues with my second sealing up (it took almost a full week). I would either crank up the hot water for a few hours to 180 or use a hot plate. 

I think the Head is a critical spot (inside and out) as most of the hard to stop leaks seemed to come from either Head. If you use hot water it will probably work but could take several applications. At the end on my problematic barrel I filled with hot tap water and it took over 3 days more still of draining and filling with hot water before I finally got a drip free overnight. I still had a few drips out of it once I filled with wine if you could believe that. I finally sealed the problematic spots with a bar of canning wax from the grocery store (didn't have the time to wait to mail order special barrel wax). 

My first barrel sealed completely in 48 hours. It was my second one that was the headache. I called Sandor, sent pictures, etc. He said he gets like 2 sent back each year and he gets them sealed up and sells them locally at a discounted price.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks, Mike. I think I will spring for the hot plate and use boiling water. _In for a penny, in for a pound._


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2011)

Well, I got the hot plate and that was a really good call. I went through the procedure that Sandor sent and I have the barrels filled with (hot) tap water. There is some leaking, but not anything to cause concern at this point. I will watch the barrels for a day or two for signs of leaking and if there are none, will load them with "Ricetta di Stefano." Yum, yum!


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## Rocky (Jul 2, 2011)

Checked both barrels this morning and they are looking to be water tight. I see some water stains around under the steel bands in some places, but they do not appear to be leaking. Both barrels took 350 ml of additional water to top up. Gives an idea of how much would have soaked into the wood.


One caution, and I don't know if this is specific to the galvanized banded barrels that I got, is that I found some really sharp burrs and metal splinterson the bands that I had to file off. If you are not careful, you could get a very nasty gash from them.


I plan to watch them for one more day, at least, and keep topping up as necessary.


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## ibglowin (Jul 2, 2011)

Make sure you have them on a counter top or hard surface that any drip will bead up, not soak in like unsealed concrete or wood so you can easily spot a drip or two. Wipe the bands first with a finger to feel for a water leak then with a paper towel looking for drips.

Here are a few snaps of my troublesome barrel and what to look for. You should have dry wood, not wet/moist wood like in these. This was taken after 4 days. I finally got this leak to stop after 6 days but I still had a few drops leak after filling with wine. I got those stopped with wax like mentioned previously. Those extra soaking days took out a bit of oak I am sure.....


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## Rocky (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks for the information, Mike. Here are some pic that I just took today. I started the process yesterday at about 4:00 PM. I think they are doing well. Good point on affecting the oaking. I hope to fill them tomorrow.


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## ibglowin (Jul 2, 2011)

I would get those oak stoppers out now before they get stuck and you have to use a mallet to get them out! 

Replace with the silicone ones I think you ordered as well. Once the oak swells they will be almost glued in place!


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## Rocky (Jul 2, 2011)

Good idea, Mike. I did buy the silicone bungs but I got two different styles; one tapered and one t-shaped. It offended my sense of consistency and I was going to return the t-shaped one to Sandor for a replacement. I think I have gotten past that so I will keep it. _Variety is the spice of life.



_
















BTW, both barrels took another 100 ml of water when I changed bungs. That is a total of 450 ml each. Also, note my Grandfather's hammer. Ever see one like that?


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## ibglowin (Jul 2, 2011)

Have not seen a hammer like that one! 

Sounds like they are swelling and sealing nicely. Remember to change the water ~ 24 hours with fresh HOT water. Once they are tight you will lose about 3 oz a week to the angels give or take a little bit.


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## ibglowin (Jul 6, 2011)

Whats the status your your "twins" Rocky?


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2011)

Mike, There is no sign of leaking but the water level is still going doing about 100-150 ml per day. I was hoping there would be more of a slowing of what I assume is a combination of evaporation and absorptions into the wood. I would hate to loose this much wine.


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## ibglowin (Jul 6, 2011)

If the outside of the barrel is dry and no drips on the table top I would fill them pronto. Your losing oak into the water with each passing day. Fill those pores with wine not water!


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2011)

Mike, I loaded 6 gallons of my _Ricetta di Stefano_ into one of the barrels. I was going to fill the second barrel but noticed a little water under the barrel. I don't think it was from a leak, rather from the overflow caused when the longer stopper is inserted. I refilled it with hot water and will watch it for a few hours and then load some _Old Vine Zinfandel_.


Thanks for getting my aspiration in gear.


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2011)

Whoa! I just came back from my cellar and the barrel that I loaded with wine _is leaking in several places_. By this I mean that there are wine stains on the barrel in several places, but no puddles of wine under the barrel. I did not see evidence of leaking with water, but the wine has found a waythrough.










The second barrel, currently filled with water, shows no signs of leaking but I am reluctant to put wine in it. I have to say that so far I am unimpressed with these barrels.



I think the workmanship is shoddy (burrs and sharp edges on the metal,wood of questionable quality) and there are visible spaces between the staves on the outside. I followed the instructions to a tee but what was really required would be to submerse the barrel in hot water to totally seal it.


At this point I am thinking of taking the wine back to a carboy and using the barrels for kindling.


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## ibglowin (Jul 6, 2011)

Rocky that is normal for these barrels. Take a look at mine. If you spray them with K-Meta over the stains they will be drawn into the wood and for the most part completely disappear. This bad stain is now gone after I transferred out one wine and washed the outside well with water and rinsed the inside. Relax, have a glass (or two) of wine and fill the other barrel!


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## Wade E (Jul 6, 2011)

Mike, is that barrel hooked up to the Mac via a USB cable?



Rocky, typically all barrels will bleed thus why some wineries actually stain the barrels with wine at least around the midsection to make them look more pleasant to the eye of onlookers.


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the encouragement, Fellows. My barrel looks much like Mike's in the second picture. Mike, when you say to lessen the stains with K-meta, do you mean while there is wine in the barrel or after it has been reomoved?


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## Wade E (Jul 6, 2011)

Most likely while in there!


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## ibglowin (Jul 6, 2011)

@ Wade not USB, FIREWIRE baby!!!!!

Rocky, just take your K-Meta spritzer bottle and spray any stains. I also spray the top with K-Meta after topping off and you get a small "seap over stain" after you reinsert the silicone bung.....


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2011)

Mike, I loaded the second barrel with _Rosso Fortissimo_ and so far, no signs of leakage. I have had this wine in a 6 gallon carboy for about 3 months. Following your experience, I plan to leave both wines in the barrels for about 3-4 weeks to get a decent oaking. I will probably go straight to bottling from the barrels and then try to keep my hot little hands off the wine for at least 9 months. Thanks for your help.


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## ibglowin (Jul 7, 2011)

Sounds good. Now to practice the 3 P's!


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## Rocky (Jul 9, 2011)

Mike, just an update on the second barrel. I filled it on Thursday and there are no signs at all of wine coming through the wood, but there is a significant stain around the bung hole. It looks like the result of capillarity. The bung on this barrel is different than my other barrel; longer and more tapered. I am just making sure that it is firmly seated in the opening. Other than that, I can't think of anything else I should do. Any thoughts?


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## ibglowin (Jul 9, 2011)

If you fill it to much it will seep out from around the edge a bit. Sometimes it will wick a bit like you have noticed. Just wipe up/off any excess. Make sure the bung is seated well and then spritz around the opening with some K-Meta and let it soak into the wood and evaporate. I open and top up once a week (pick a day). Each barrel usually takes 2-3 oz to top off. If you had a full 6 gallon carboy you should have about a bottle or more of extra wine to top off and this should last the 3 months or so of barrel time to start. I backfill my open bottle with Argon gas and push a used cork back in half way till the next week then repeat this process for the duration of time in the barrel.


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## Rocky (Jul 9, 2011)

Mike, how do you buy the argon gas? I have only seen it in a large cylinder when I was in industry. Is there a smallercontainer available? I am assuming that you are using it as a blanket against oxygen infiltration and to push the air in the bottle out.


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## PeterZ (Jul 11, 2011)

Small cylinders are available at welding supply houses.


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## John Prince (Dec 20, 2011)

White or red wine for the first batch in a oak barrel? Why? Should I bulk age in a carboy for 4 months before I rotate in the barrel? More question later. Thanks<div id="myWatcherDiv" style="displayone;"><div id="myWatcherDiv" style="displayone;">


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## rhoffart (Dec 20, 2011)

John Prince said:


> White or red wine for the first batch in a oak barrel? Why? Should I bulk age in a carboy for 4 months before I rotate in the barrel? More question later. Thanks<div id="myWatcherDiv" style="displayone;"><div id="myWatcherDiv" style="displayone;">



I ran three whites through mine first and now going to run 3 reds through it next. Only the way it worked out, you know you can go from white to red but not red to white.


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## ibglowin (Dec 20, 2011)

Unless you like Pink!


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## John Prince (Dec 20, 2011)

No problem with only reds? Should I bulk age in the carboy for 4 months before using the barrel? I have a red wine that been in the carboy for 5 months. I'm ready.<div id="myWatcherDiv" style="displayone;">


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## uavwmn (Dec 27, 2011)

Mike, why am I seeing red X's instead of pictures in here? I really don't like this new website.






Kathie


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## grapeman (Dec 27, 2011)

Some of the pictures got lost in the move to this new site and George and his tech guy can't figure out where they are or how to get them working. The move to this new site was necessary although not really wanted because of the disruption it causes moving things.


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## ibglowin (Dec 27, 2011)

I saw some yesterday on my Chateau Michaelena Winery thread that were showing up just fine and others that were not so hopefully they will find them all and get them moved into the right sub directory at some point so they will all display.


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