# Bottle aging vs bulk aging



## Billaban (Dec 9, 2020)

Greetings,

I have done a few dozen WE kits and just noticed something in the instructions that I hadn't noticed before. The very last sentence "Bottle aging is the preferred method". I'm wondering why that would be. I never do that and usually age in glass carboys for approx 6 months. Comments?

Regards.


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## dmguptill (Dec 9, 2020)

Bottle aging gets the wine out of the carboy, so you can buy another to take its place.

I'm sure others will chime in with other reasons to go either way, but aging in the carboy allows you to modify and tweak as it ages.

Besides, if you age in the carboy, but want to start another wine, you just buy more carboys


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## pillswoj (Dec 9, 2020)

As their directions tell you not to top up (if I remember correctly, haven't read them in a while) They want it into the bottle to minimize O2 exposure. The directions need to be beginner proof and bottling sooner is the safer way - better a bit of bottle sediment then an Oxidized Chardonnay. 

All that said, I haven't followed the directions in at least the last 10 years.


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## Handy Turnip (Dec 9, 2020)

Yep agree with what's been said - personally I bottle age due to a lack of carboy space, and have never suffered from any bottle sediment (as long as you don't bottle too soon then it shouldn't be an problem).


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## dmw_chef (Dec 9, 2020)

Bulk aging will give you more consistency in the batch. 

Personally I'm six month minimum pitch to bottle - 1 month for primary, 3 months on oak, do acid/tannin adjustments, then 2 months for powdered tannins to polymerize = 6 months minimum. 

I do have a cyser that's been in bulk for about a year because I'm not happy with it yet. About to pull off a couple bottles to do a bench trial of a month or two on the Sur-Lie magic powder from morewine to see if that puts it where I want it.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 9, 2020)

My reasoning to bulk as long as possible is a little less scientific, but once it’s in the bottle, well...we tend to drink them. And by the time the wine is really starting to come around— there’s none left!


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## CDrew (Dec 9, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> My reasoning to bulk as long as possible is a little less scientific, but once it’s in the bottle, well...we tend to drink them. And by the time the wine is really starting to come around— there’s none left!



That was certainly true in 2017 for me. I kept trying to see where I was, and when the wine was finally good, it was all gone. Learned something though. Now, I bottle in October when it's a year old, then set one case aside to taste on bottle monthly for the next year. Then I'll typically have 5 cases left after 2 years and a year of tasting notes.


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## Venatorscribe (Dec 10, 2020)

dmw_chef said:


> Bulk aging will give you more consistency in the batch.
> 
> Personally I'm six month minimum pitch to bottle - 1 month for primary, 3 months on oak, do acid/tannin adjustments, then 2 months for powdered tannins to polymerize = 6 months minimum.
> 
> I do have a cyser that's been in bulk for about a year because I'm not happy with it yet. About to pull off a couple bottles to do a bench trial of a month or two on the Sur-Lie magic powder from morewine to see if that puts it where I want it.


I like the way you roll ... good style


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## Venatorscribe (Dec 10, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> My reasoning to bulk as long as possible is a little less scientific, but once it’s in the bottle, well...we tend to drink them. And by the time the wine is really starting to come around— there’s none left!


So true ....!


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## Billaban (Dec 10, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback. My hunch has been confirmed. I have more 5g carboys than I will ever need .... unless I get back into brewing.

Got some Diablo Rojo in primary now. That has been one of our favorites. We had been doing double batches in a few monster (13 gallon) carboy like vessels but have started doing single kits and experimenting with new kits. Did two of the WE Lim Ed kits last year. Both are very good. Our all time fav is the WE Old Vine Zinfandel.

Cheers.


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## winemaker81 (Dec 10, 2020)

There is evidence that wine ages more quickly in smaller containers. There was an article in the Wine Spectator circa 1989 regarding Riesling from the late 1700's that was still good -- all were in large bottles.

If you want wine to age, make more than you drink!

Also, don't drink out of the carboy. An acquaintance had a great Niagara in November, but by early February it was badly oxidized. It turns out she and her husband had been drinking from the carboy and did not understand that head space was bad .....


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## dmw_chef (Dec 10, 2020)

winemaker81 said:


> There is evidence that wine ages more quickly in smaller containers. There was an article in the Wine Spectator circa 1989 regarding Riesling from the late 1700's that was still good -- all were in large bottles.



IIRC that's because the smaller volume causes micro-oxidation to happen much more quickly than larger formats.


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## dmguptill (Dec 11, 2020)

The other reason I bulk age for a while, is that I could never whip or stir all the CO2 out of the wine. I got spoons, whips, drill attachments, the works. Nothing I tried worked to get all the fizz out. Bulk age, and vacuum rack 3-4 times with the AIO pump, no more problems with carbonation.


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## Handy Turnip (Dec 17, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> My reasoning to bulk as long as possible is a little less scientific, but once it’s in the bottle, well...we tend to drink them. And by the time the wine is really starting to come around— there’s none left!



So true! But actually it's also another reason why I like bottle aging - I enjoy the journey of tasting over time so see how the wine changes. And I always hold some back to make sure I can work out when it's at it's best. It helps that I only do white wines, and they tend to be really good straight away so I'm not wasting it by drinking it before it's ready. Plus it's much better tasting than the commercial wines I would be buying if I wasn't drinking it - especially once it hits 3mths in the bottle then it's superb.


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## Ajmassa (Dec 17, 2020)

Handy Turnip said:


> So true! But actually it's also another reason why I like bottle aging - I enjoy the journey of tasting over time so see how the wine changes. And I always hold some back to make sure I can work out when it's at it's best. It helps that I only do white wines, and they tend to be really good straight away so I'm not wasting it by drinking it before it's ready. Plus it's much better tasting than the commercial wines I would be buying if I wasn't drinking it - especially once it hits 3mths in the bottle then it's superb.



on occasion I’ve bottled a portion of a batch into 375mL bottles. Used as em ‘tasters’ to see how wine was progressing without committing to a full bottle. A tip I picked up from the forum.


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## Handy Turnip (Dec 18, 2020)

Ajmassa said:


> on occasion I’ve bottled a portion of a batch into 375mL bottles. Used as em ‘tasters’ to see how wine was progressing without committing to a full bottle. A tip I picked up from the forum.


Yes that sounds like a great tip! I'll have to give that a go next time.


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## kiphorn (May 11, 2021)

Ajmassa said:


> My reasoning to bulk as long as possible is a little less scientific, but once it’s in the bottle, well...we tend to drink them. And by the time the wine is really starting to come around— there’s none left!


This the exact reason I started bulk aging. Is there a suggested time for bulk aging reds and whites? 

I'm just getting back into wine making and as I recall I'd end the aging when my supply of wine started running low. I'm looking at buying a few 3 gallon carboys so I can bottle half and keep aging the other half. I've got two whites going now. One in the fermenter (RJS En Premier Pinot Grigio) and another 5 weeks along in a carboy (WE Synergy). I going to start a red and follow this same process of bottling half and aging half until I get my stock built back up. Since we're approaching summer I'll throw in an Skeeter Pee or Dragon Blood so I have a good drinking summer wine which will also add to my drinking stock.

Thanks.


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## winemaker81 (May 11, 2021)

kiphorn said:


> This the exact reason I started bulk aging. Is there a suggested time for bulk aging reds and whites?


If you're doing natural clearing (no degassing or fining agents), 3 months of bulk aging is an absolute minimum, and it's not guaranteed the wine will be clear. Some will, some won't.

Anyone who can't let the bottles age, ya got 2 main choices:

1) Bulk age longer.

2) Make more than you can drink, so some of the wine will age. Initially making quick drinkers (Skeeterpee, Dragon's Blood, whites, and light reds) is a great idea. I make 2nd run wines for this reason.

I recently wrote a *post on bulk aging*, which includes background material and the time frames I use.

Me? 3 to 6 months for whites, light reds, and light fruits. These wines are drinkable sooner and have a shorter lifespan, so I get 'em in the bottle sooner.

Heavy reds and dark fruits? 6 to 12 months, depending on use of oak adjuncts. Some folks bulk age up to 2 years, but I do not have the barrels or space for that. I bottle barrels when the next year's wine is ready to go into the barrel. Wine in carboys around 9 months. To some extent, I bottle some wines a bit early to avoid bottling an entire year's production at once.


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## Bmd2k1 (May 11, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> If you're doing natural clearing (no degassing or fining agents), 3 months of bulk aging is an absolute minimum, and it's not guaranteed the wine will be clear. Some will, some won't.
> 
> Anyone who can't let the bottles age, ya got 2 main choices:
> 
> ...


Curious...how many times do you rack b4 bottling?

Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (May 11, 2021)

Bmd2k1 said:


> Curious...how many times do you rack b4 bottling?


As few as possible. Looking at my Meritage blend, so far I've done 3 and expect 2 more:

Oct - pressing (if it was juice this would be a racking)
Nov - 4 weeks later off the gross lees, wine into barrel
Feb - 3 months later off fine lees.
Aug - pre-bottling, getting wine of any sediment and removing oak cubes (barrel is neutral)
Nov - bottle when when the 2021 blend is ready for barrel
If making kits and/or using fining agents, there may be an additional racking. In other circumstances I've done more rackings, but everything I've read in the last few years says to rack as seldom as feasible.

One thing I did in Feb was to rack all topup containers, checked that all were good, then homogenized the entire batch. This way each topup is identical to what's in the barrel, keeps the wine consistent for quality control (e.g., tasting) purposes. At bottling time I'll add all topup containers to the main batch, although that will be at most 2 additional gallons.

I do this for blends, which is the 2020 wine, the planned 2021 wine, and all 2nd run wines.

*Note:* I'm gently stirring the barrel at topup time, as that provides an accurate picture of what the cubes are doing. I add SO2 at 3 month intervals.


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## Bmd2k1 (May 12, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> As few as possible. Looking at my Meritage blend, so far I've done 3 and expect 2 more:
> 
> Oct - pressing (if it was juice this would be a racking)
> Nov - 4 weeks later off the gross lees, wine into barrel
> ...


Thanks for great info! 

When you rack pre bottling...do you let it sit for any length of time before the bottling process?

Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (May 12, 2021)

Bmd2k1 said:


> When you rack pre bottling...do you let it sit for any length of time before the bottling process?


I'm happy to help!

The final process depends on sediment. If there is no sediment, I may bottle directly from the carboy without racking first. Note that I remove a bottle's worth from the carboy, add 1/4 tsp K-meta, stir to distribute, then add the reserved wine back in. Then bottle.

This assumes no backsweetening (which I rarely do). If there is backsweetening, rack, stabilize, sweeten to taste, and bottle.

Sediment is the primary driver -- if the wine isn't clear before bottling, it's gonna drop sediment in the bottle. If there is any significant sediment, rack and let it set another month.

If there is just a very fine dusting in the bottom of the carboy? Prior to racking I put a wedge under one edge of the carboy to tilt it. During racking, I hold the cane up from the bottom and near the end, point the cane to the deepest part of the wine. The goal is to get as much clear wine as possible while not disturbing the sediment.

Depending on the amount of sediment and if it's moving as the racking reaches the end, I may stop the racking early and bottle what is racked. Then I complete the racking, and if that wine is muddy at all, it goes in the fridge for a week to clear. IMO I will happily bottle 24 perfectly clear bottles and deal with 1 muddy one. The 25th should clear, but if it doesn't it's just unsightly. It's quite drinkable and works great in cooking.

Another option is if there is _any_ sediment, rack the wine and wait 2 to 4 weeks to see if more drops. However, the above process for handling fine lees works for me.


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## Handy Turnip (May 12, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Depending on the amount of sediment and if it's moving as the racking reaches the end, I may stop the racking early and bottle what is racked. Then I complete the racking, and if that wine is muddy at all, it goes in the fridge for a week to clear. IMO I will happily bottle 24 perfectly clear bottles and deal with 1 muddy one. The 25th should clear, but if it doesn't it's just unsightly. It's quite drinkable and works great in cooking.



Yes completely agree - this is the process I follow. I think the key thing is to play it safe. There's little point spending time and energy clearing your wine, just to disturb the sediment when you come to racking for bottling. I'll stop racking well before I get anywhere near the sediment, and bottle what is racked. And to date I've never sediment in my bottles.

I'll then do a dirty rack of what's left into a big kilner jar, and let it settle over a week. That generally becomes my treat bottle to enjoy once it's cleared!


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## DizzyIzzy (May 16, 2021)

dmw_chef said:


> Bulk aging will give you more consistency in the batch.
> 
> Personally I'm six month minimum pitch to bottle - 1 month for primary, 3 months on oak, do acid/tannin adjustments, then 2 months for powdered tannins to polymerize = 6 months minimum.
> 
> I do have a cyser that's been in bulk for about a year because I'm not happy with it yet. About to pull off a couple bottles to do a bench trial of a month or two on the Sur-Lie magic powder from morewine to see if that puts it where I want it.


What does the Sur-Lie magic powder do to the taste of the wine?.............................................DizzyIzzy


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## winemaker81 (May 16, 2021)

DizzyIzzy said:


> What does the Sur-Lie magic powder do to the taste of the wine?


I assume the powder is essentially dried fine lees, which is dead yeast husks. Aging sur lie adds flavors, aromas, and complexity to a wine. This site describes it better than I can.









What is Sur Lie? - Definition from WineFrog


This definition explains the meaning of Sur Lie and why it matters.




www.winefrog.com


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## Daytona249 (Aug 14, 2021)

I just finished 2 Merlot and 2 Cab Sauv 28 day wine kits. Will bulk aging in the carboys improve the wine as they say to bottle at this point ?. I was going to try and add a Bourbon soaked oak chip bag to a couple of carboys , how long would you suggest leaving it?


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## winemaker81 (Aug 14, 2021)

Kit wines are designed for beginners to get their wines in the bottle ASAP for quick gratification. This works.

However, bulk aging has advantages, as the wine goes through a lot of changes during the first 6 to 12 months. Keeping the wine in bulk helps ensure the wine ages uniformly. It's also helpful in preventing you from drinking it, which gives the wine time to age.  

I've tried various durations -- 4 months total (start to bottle) is a minimum. For reds, 6 to 12 months total.

I suggest you taste the wine at each racking and record your impressions. After a year, read the notes in order and look at how the wines changed over time. It's very instructive.

Regarding oak -- I use 1 to 2 oz for 5 to 6 gallons of wine, and extraction will take 3 to 5 months. My *oak stix experiment* has produced interesting results, in that the wines change a LOT over time, both ups and downs. While the last formal tasting in early July was a down point, an unofficial tasting the other day was quite good.


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## Daytona249 (Aug 14, 2021)

Thanks a lot for the information winemaker81, that was kind of my take on it but just wanted some input.my plan was to bulk age on bourbon soaked oak for at least 2-3 months, while tasting periodically and waiting for the right taste to bottle.
Thanks again


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## Rembee (Aug 14, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Regarding oak -- I use 1 to 2 oz for 5 to 6 gallons of wine, and extraction will take 3 to 5 months.


If my math is correct, for 1 oz per 5 gallons comes out to 5.6 grams per gallon. 
Are you using cubes for your oaking @winemaker81?


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## winemaker81 (Aug 14, 2021)

Rembee said:


> If my math is correct, for 1 oz per 5 gallons comes out to 5.6 grams per gallon.
> Are you using cubes for your oaking @winemaker81?


Yeah, 5.6 grams is correct.

I like cubes for cost effectiveness vs. ease of use. Chips are the hardest to use, as the surface area is too variable and it's more of a PITA to get 'em out of the fermenter. Staves and spirals are much easier to use, the surface area is regular, but the price is significantly higher. Cubes are the middle ground, fairly regular in surface area and once used up, they're easier than chips to get out of the wine and don't clog the racking cane.

IMO surface area is critical, as it indicates how much direct contact the wine and wood have.

FYI, my 2019 second run spent 10 months in the a 54 liter (14.25 US gallon) barrel with 6 oz cubes for 5 of those months. At this time the wine is good, but it's got a bit of a harsh oak edge to it. My 2020 first run wines are in the barrels now (both 54 liter), and I'm using 5 oz cubes per barrel. The oak character is a LOT less, less than I'd expect based upon the 2019 results. I believe the difference is the first run wines have a LOT more body, so the oak in the second run comes through more.

Using oak adjuncts is an art, not a science, as there are many factors in play. I'm still making it up as I go.


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## Rembee (Aug 14, 2021)

Your right about the use of oak being an art.
At the end of the day, what it comes down to, (through experimenting) is personal preference right?
For me in my Muscadine and Blueberry wines, what I have found over the years is 4 grams per gallon of oak cubes is perfect for the taste that I'm trying to achieve. 
I also agree, that for the cost factor and ease of use, cubes are the way to go IMHO.
I am just now this year experimenting with oak chips in the fermentation only, at a rate of 3 grams per gallon. I'm wanting to see if it improves mouthfeel, color longevity and the complexity of the oak tannins in my Blueberry wine. So I'm experimenting with a 3 gallon batch. It has already been racked off of the gross lees and the chips, which was a PITA and is now bulk settling/aging. Next month will be 3 months, my plans are to rack, add another dose of k meta and 12 grams of oak cubes. Then bulk age for 5 to 6 months.


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## winemaker81 (Aug 14, 2021)

Rembee said:


> I am just now this year experimenting with oak chips in the fermentation only, at a rate of 3 grams per gallon.


Do you have a no fermentation oak blueberry to compare against?


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## Rembee (Aug 14, 2021)

Yes, another 3 gallon batch from this year and a few bottles from last year. It was originally a 6 gallon batch that I spilt into 2 5 gallon fermentation buckets. I spilt it after I got my OG and PH dialed in while it was sitting on the pectic enzyme for 24 hours.


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## DizzyIzzy (Aug 14, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> I assume the powder is essentially dried fine lees, which is dead yeast husks. Aging sur lie adds flavors, aromas, and complexity to a wine. This site describes it better than I can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting article, but begs the question of why, then, do we* rack off lees *before bottling? Is this Sur-Lie Magic powder created from a process, or is it a different animal altogether? Thanks.........................DizzyIzzy


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## Rembee (Aug 14, 2021)

Because the lees that settle out from our fermentation's has fruit pulp and particles in it. 
The Sur Lie is just yeast husk.


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## DizzyIzzy (Aug 14, 2021)

Rembee said:


> Because the lees that settle out from our fermentation's has fruit pulp and particles in it.
> The Sur Lie is just yeast husk.





Rembee said:


> Because the lees that settle out from our fermentation's has fruit pulp and particles in it.
> The Sur Lie is just yeast husk.


Thankyou for the feedback. I will definitely try the Sur-Lie next time I make a white.....................................DizzyIzzy


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## winemaker81 (Aug 14, 2021)

@DizzyIzzy, adding onto @Rembee's comment:

Gross lees drops right after fermentation ends, mostly grape (fruit) solids. This will decompose and can cause off flavors, and should be removed within weeks.

Fine lees drops later, which is mostly yeast husks. This has no significant effect on reds, as the flavors imparted are gentle and reds are heavy enough that the sur lies flavor are not noticed. In whites, the sur lies flavors are generally positive.

Taking your question literally, we rack off the fine lees at bottling so we don't have sludge in the bottle.


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## Daytona249 (Aug 14, 2021)

My intention was to use bourbon soaked chips in a mesh bag


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## winemaker81 (Aug 14, 2021)

Daytona249 said:


> My intention was to use bourbon soaked chips in a mesh bag


Getting mesh bags into and out of a carboy is more difficult than you may realize.


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## Sailor323 (Aug 15, 2021)

Daytona249 said:


> My intention was to use bourbon soaked chips in a mesh bag


II don't understand why you would use bourbon soaked chips. Seems to me that would impart a bourbon flavor to the wine.


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## Bmd2k1 (Aug 15, 2021)

winemaker81 said:


> Getting mesh bags into and out of a carboy is more difficult than you may realize.


I'm using stainless hops cylinders whenever I use chips in primary...works great with wide mouth Speidels I have. (Carboys...not so much)

Cheers!


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## winemaker81 (Aug 15, 2021)

Sailor323 said:


> II don't understand why you would use bourbon soaked chips. Seems to me that would impart a bourbon flavor to the wine.


That is the aim. Bourbon barrel aged reds is common these days, and for most home winemakers this is tough to emulate, as bourbon barrels are normally 53 gallons.

@Daytona249, I've seen chips, cubes, etc. made from used bourbon barrels, so they should have charred edges and bourbon flavor deeply embedded in the wood. If you can get some of these, it's more likely to produce a better flavor than merely soaking chips in bourbon.


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## Daytona249 (Aug 15, 2021)

Thanks winemaker81, that definitely is my goal. This is my first time experimenting with bourbon,i have both chips and cubes from bourbon barrel, will try chips this time and perhaps cubes next time around. You are right about bourbon flavours becoming quite popular,at least here in Canada (Brithish Colombia) iam not sure about the USA as i havent been there since the pandemic


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## winemaker81 (Aug 15, 2021)

Daytona249 said:


> not sure about the USA


I see enough reds "aged in bourbon barrels" to think of it as a trend. And everyone jumps on the marketing trend:


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